# Avoiding a McDojo MMA School



## LoneRider (Aug 5, 2008)

With the popularity of MMA these days, I've heard that MMA is the new McDojo, in the way Karate/TaeKwonDo was in the '70s-'90s. I'm in the Navy right now and I'm fixing to switch into the US Army after my time is up in September of next year (I'll be going to Iraq in January as an Individual Augmentee after training starts in October). I'm looking into entering an MMA/BJJ type school once I've gotten settled (about late 2009-2010). What I'm looking for is a school to practice BJJ (for my ground game which is lacking) as well as one that can really help me put my striking game together. 

 My introductory post should give a rundown of my martial arts background (mostly striking ranging from TKD, western boxing, and Southern Chinese kung fu (Wing Chun) at Centerline Martial Arts in Neptune Beach FL.)

 How do I tell that a school is a McDojo? I know that affiliation with ATT/Gracie/Machado can be touted, and isn't always a guarantee of a good MMA school. Any advice?

 Lone Rider


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## punisher73 (Aug 5, 2008)

Find a list of the schools in your area and ask to watch a class.  Also, find out what rankings/credentials the instructor(s) have.  Many schools will have a coach/teacher for each part of it.  For example, a coach for the boxing or muay thai, and a coach for bjj.  If there is only one teacher, again look at how the class is run and what credentials he/she has.

I don't think there is a way to tell right off the bat, it will take a little time and research on your part.  Also, ask lots of questions.  There are some schools/teachers that just have you beat the crap out of each other and call it MMA without any set structure or curriculum.  The teacher has a little bit of knowledge and won't be able to guide you much past very novice levels.  Then there are some that slowly integrate the beginning student into full sparring after you have achieved a basic proficiency in striking/grappling so don't just judge a school by how much sparring you see either.

Lastly, find a school that fits with your personality and budget.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 5, 2008)

Every shool is someone else's Mc Dojo. 
sean


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't want to redirect the conversation, but are there any boxing or military combative programs offered for your military unit?

AoG


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## LoneRider (Aug 5, 2008)

Well, yes we get basic self defense, which is MMA-esque, but we don't practice it nearly as much in the shipboard Navy which I'm part of. The IA Navy I don't know how much it'll be emphasized, and in the Army I definitely know it'll be emphasized, but I'd like to go into MMA/MA as a non-military sort of thing as well.


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## TheOriginalName (Aug 5, 2008)

Hey there.

What has been suggested is good advice so far. 
I would like to add my two cents though - i'm not a fan of MMA delivered in three seperate "packages" (striking, wrestling and ground). What i prefer - and where i think the MMA world will soon be heading - is a fully integrated system, where the three "games" are interwoved. 
Now pick which schools deliver this type of approach will be very difficult - but if you can find one i personally think your technique will be ahead of the pack. 

That's just my two cents. 

At the end of the day though you have to enjoy the school your at. Training should be fun and enjoyable - you don't want to spend 5 or 6 hours a week (or more or less) in a place with people and attitudes you don't mesh with. 

Anyway, that's my take of this.........

In either case - best of luck with your upcoming deployment and with your future MA training.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2008)

If you end up in Germany I know of an American Army MMA club there, it's run by a seving soldier who's also a pro MMA fighter, he fights over here sometimes and he also runs fight nights in Germany.


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 6, 2008)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html
Click there to see the 2002 military manual for the military combatives martial arts style.
Field Manual
No. 3-25.150 Headquarters
Department of the Army
Washington, DC, 18 January 2002 

AoG


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## LoneRider (Aug 6, 2008)

Hey there. Thanks for the insight and the link. It sounds remarkably similar to MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) training I went through as a Midshipman two years ago during my abortive attempt to become a Marine Officer (due to low class standing and a disciplinary incident (insubordination) during my freshman year at my commissioning source, long story short, not chosen to be a Marine).


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## terryl965 (Aug 6, 2008)

Like other have said try the school for yourself, watch some classes and talk to the instructor. That is all anybody can do, McDojo's get used way to often these days by somebody or anybody even by people with little training. Seeing is believing.


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## ufcgirls (Sep 24, 2008)

Like everyone's saying, go to the school, watch the students, and see if you can get to try out the class or a day to a week for free.  A lot of credible,  schools will allow you to do this.  With the expection of the big names which are tourist attractions 

Partly for this McDojo reason, we have put together a database of US MMA Schools that where users can search for schools and review them.  The site is only in BETA right now, however you're all invited to take a look - fightteam.net


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## LoneRider (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks for the tip ufcgirls. I liked the website from what I've browsed of it. I'm not trying to be an a**, but I'd like to suggest something: For military folks do you think you could indicate proximity to nearest military installations for some of the schools you put in.


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## matt.m (Dec 14, 2008)

The Army's new combative system is more BJJ than anything.  I have seen it, great stuff for P.T. gear but not in full battle gear.  Just impractical.  Also, MCMAP is more like Hapkido than anything.  I was a L.I.N.E. training instructor certified while in the Marines and now have a 1st dan in MCMAP.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

I think that in MMA the best places to train won't be places that call themselves 'schools', MMA tends to have clubs/teams or gyms. A small thing perhaps but it will give you a insight to how the people who run it think, they also tend not to be 'instructors' more likely to call themselves coaches. It's more in line with the professional sport attitude, like boxing.
A good place to train MMA will have fighters who compete regularly with a good rate of success against creditable opponents, a place that has all wins is as suspect as one that has all losses. 
An MMA gym is a place for fighters, there should be an attitude of hard work, sweat and effort. Training should be hard with enphasis equally on fitness as techniques. What shouldn't be there is an attitude of macho men or of people being buulies. There should be a sense of fun however, the work hard play hard ethos lol! 
MMA gyms aren't dojos so shouldn't pretend to be, good ones will be like boxing gyms.
There's quite a few videos online and around of the top gyms showing how they train so have a look at them and find one that resembles them.

http://www.wolfslairmma.co.uk/info.html
http://www.yorkshiremma.co.uk/staff.html

These are two of the best in our country, the rest are run on similar lines and just vary in size. it may give you an idea of what to look for.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2008)

There is an explosion of MMA schools opening up around the United States.  Some are very, very qualified with good instructors and some are terrible with the instructor having no more than a weekend or so of training with the group that they have affiliated with. (including almost everybody)  It is as always a buyer beware type of situation and look deeply at who you will be training with and their credentials.


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## K831 (Dec 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think that in MMA the best places to train won't be places that call themselves 'schools', MMA tends to have clubs/teams or gyms. A small thing perhaps but it will give you a insight to how the people who run it think, they also tend not to be 'instructors' more likely to call themselves coaches. It's more in line with the professional sport attitude, like boxing.
> A good place to train MMA will have fighters who compete regularly with a good rate of success against creditable opponents, a place that has all wins is as suspect as one that has all losses.
> An MMA gym is a place for fighters, there should be an attitude of hard work, sweat and effort. Training should be hard with enphasis equally on fitness as techniques. What shouldn't be there is an attitude of macho men or of people being buulies. There should be a sense of fun however, the work hard play hard ethos lol!
> MMA gyms aren't dojos so shouldn't pretend to be, good ones will be like boxing gyms.
> ...



Exactly.

What you see in the students will be the most revealing. There are coaches out there who can fight, but can't teach. How do the students move? What is their work ethic and motivation like? You have boxed, so look for little things in the student; How is their footwork? Are the mechanics correct in their punching technique or is it sloppy? Do all the students have telegraphing issues? Do they just bang away in front of the heavy bag or are they moving, slipping, counter punching? Sloppy students with poor basics indicate a McDojo (or at least a lazy group of coaches) and you won't want to train there.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 15, 2008)

There's a chain of schools in my area that used be called ______ ______ Karate, I think there are more than 40 of them in NJ, PA, CT, & FL.  Now they are called ________ ________ Mixed Martial Arts.  One of my students studied there for about a month.  You know the $30 beginer program for 1 month and free uniform with their logo on it.  When he started with me he had 3 stripes on his white belt.  I asked him what the stripes meant and he told me that he got one for every class he went to and after he got to eight they were going to test him for yellow belt.  If you go to their website they have a video of a demo they did for the NY Knicks with about 100 Blackbelts under the age of 10.

Could this be a chain of Mc Dojo's?
Also the guy who started the chain is a highly decorated Martial Artist - 6 x North American Kyokoshinkai Champion.  Undefeated in 100s of fights.  Creator of his own hybrid style of the most effective techniques.  Featured in every major Martial Art Magazine (Black Belt, Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated, etc). Inducted into North American Grappling Association hall of fame in 2005 as a founding member.  Claims his organization became number 1 grappling school in North America in 2004.

There is a MMA competition team - they compete in organizations I'm not familiar with as well as some that I am.  There are about 20 pro fighters, no big names.  I think they also compete within their own organization.  They have both wins and losses.

None of this information is fictional - all was taken from conversation with my one student and the organizations website.  I don't want to say names because I'm sure they've got a team of lawyers on retainer.

What are your thoughts?

Could this be a chain of Mc Dojo's?


_Don Flatt


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

If the MMA team is competing against people in promotions other than their own and are doing well, not necessarily winning but able to hold their won against good opponents which means they've been fairly matched, it sounds as if the classes are fine though they may be expensive!
There's no gradings in MMA but fight records should be available on whatever websites do them in America, you'll be able to see who they are fighting and whether they have good matches.
Sounds okay for training but I imagine pricey!!


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 15, 2008)

Yeah Tez it is a tad pricey - especially when you account for required equipment that you must purchase from them only - gloves, cup, rashguard, head gear, foot and shin protecters, karate gi, board shorts, ear protectors, etc - everything must have their logo on it.  Gotta be close to $500 for required equipment.

I did a brief look thru the Pro Fighters' records and it seemed that for the most part they fared better against MMA strikers and didn't do to well against grapplers - both wrestlers and jiujitsuka.  Their kickboxing records were much better - a number of them were a part of the organization's team in the World Combat League.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Yeah Tez it is a tad pricey - especially when you account for required equipment that you must purchase from them only - gloves, cup, rashguard, head gear, foot and shin protecters, karate gi, board shorts, ear protectors, etc - everything must have their logo on it. Gotta be close to $500 for required equipment.
> 
> I did a brief look thru the Pro Fighters' records and it seemed that for the most part they fared better against MMA strikers and didn't do to well against grapplers - both wrestlers and jiujitsuka. Their kickboxing records were much better - a number of them were a part of the organization's team in the World Combat League.


 
What on earth do they want karate gis for? All they need is groin guard, gloves, gum shield and shorts without pockets, zips etc, board shorts made for MMA are good but not necessary. Ear protection can be done with cotton wool and tape, cheap and cheerful!
guess it's up to people to decide whether it's worth paying for really and what they want to do MMA for. 
We sell kit to help pay for club but we have it made for us and can keep it as cheap as possible. Working it out if people wanted to buy what they needed from us it would cost about a hundred pounds, if they want though they can buy any kit from any where they want up to them.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> What on earth do they want karate gis for?


Yeah, like I said - until about a year ago they were [name of guy] Karate and now they are [name of guy] Mixed Martial Arts.  It seems that they adopted a grappling/mma curricullum to keep with the current trend as there is no legitimate grappling pedigree for the organization - wrestling or jujutsu.  The guy who started the organization was Kyokoshinkai before he "created" his own art based on what techiques he felt were most effective.  The guy who started the organization has a background in bare knuckle Kyokoshinkai competition and students in the Org seem to do well in Kickboxing competition but like I said - not as well against legitimate grapplers.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Yeah, like I said - until about a year ago they were [name of guy] Karate and now they are [name of guy] Mixed Martial Arts. It seems that they adopted a grappling/mma curricullum to keep with the current trend as there is no legitimate grappling pedigree for the organization - wrestling or jujutsu. The guy who started the organization was Kyokoshinkai before he "created" his own art based on what techiques he felt were most effective. The guy who started the organization has a background in bare knuckle Kyokoshinkai competition and students in the Org seem to do well in Kickboxing competition but like I said - not as well against legitimate grapplers.


 
It really would be worth his while getting a good BJJ/grappling coach in and building a good team up, it would make good business sense as well. People are more likely to overlook the cost if they get good training and fights. 
If I were in it for the money I'd prefer charging less and having regular long term customers providing a secure living to charging a lot and not having a regular student list which is what tends to happen if you charge a lot.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It really would be worth his while getting a good BJJ/grappling coach in and building a good team up, it would make good business sense as well. People are more likely to overlook the cost if they get good training and fights.
> If I were in it for the money I'd prefer charging less and having regular long term customers providing a secure living to charging a lot and not having a regular student list which is what tends to happen if you charge a lot.



I'm with you on all that your saying but you have to understand this organization is over 40 schools with probably over 12,000 students.  I don't think they care about having the best team - like I said they do OK and as long as they keep rolling in new students by keeping up with the trends....


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I'm with you on all that your saying but you have to understand this organization is over 40 schools with probably over 12,000 students. I don't think they care about having the best team - like I said they do OK and as long as they keep rolling in new students by keeping up with the trends....


 
Well if they get a fighter or two into the big shows like UFC they can double their schools and students lol. Greed is good....so they say!!

Ah where did I go wrong.......


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## Ybot (Dec 15, 2008)

I think Tez3 and K831 have given the best advice so far.  Check their posts for the best ideas.  I just want to adress a couple of the other posts though:



TheOriginalName said:


> Hey there.
> 
> What has been suggested is good advice so far.
> I would like to add my two cents though - i'm not a fan of MMA delivered in three seperate "packages" (striking, wrestling and ground). What i prefer - and where i think the MMA world will soon be heading - is a fully integrated system, where the three "games" are interwoved.
> ...



I have to disagree with the overall idea of an integrated system.  While I agree that you have to train things together, you are going to get the best training from specialists.  A good MMA gym should have instructors or coaches who hold rank or some sort of certification in a specific range of fighting.  When it is an integrated system taught by a "jack of all trades" some of the finer points are lost in the shuffle.

I do agree that MMA gyms are headed towards integrated systems, but I don't believe that is a good thing.



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> There's a chain of schools in my area that used be called ______ ______ Karate, I think there are more than 40 of them in NJ, PA, CT, & FL. Now they are called ________ ________ Mixed Martial Arts. One of my students studied there for about a month. You know the $30 beginer program for 1 month and free uniform with their logo on it. When he started with me he had 3 stripes on his white belt. I asked him what the stripes meant and he told me that he got one for every class he went to and after he got to eight they were going to test him for yellow belt. If you go to their website they have a video of a demo they did for the NY Knicks with about 100 Blackbelts under the age of 10.
> 
> Could this be a chain of Mc Dojo's?
> Also the guy who started the chain is a highly decorated Martial Artist - 6 x North American Kyokoshinkai Champion. Undefeated in 100s of fights. Creator of his own hybrid style of the most effective techniques. Featured in every major Martial Art Magazine (Black Belt, Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated, etc). Inducted into North American Grappling Association hall of fame in 2005 as a founding member. Claims his organization became number 1 grappling school in North America in 2004.
> ...



I think I know exactly which chain of schools you are speaking of, and from what I've heard, yes it is a McDojo.  That's not to say you won't learn anything by going there, but from what I have heard a lot of it's tournament sucess comes from flooding tournaments with large numbers of it's students.  Makes the odds more in their favor.  From what I have heard their grapplers are not well reguarded over all.


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## Kwan Jang (Dec 16, 2008)

Not only is MMA the new "hot trend" (the ninja craze of this decade), but pretty much the way the martial arts are evolving. BTW, I see MMA as constantly evolving and will probably look quite a bit different in 5-10 years as well, including from a technical standpoint. Because of this, you will see not only the McDojos trying to cash in on the trend, but you will see a large percentage of schools seeing the advantage of this evolution and going along with it. Let's face it, none of us got into this for the money, some just have the audacity to actually make some in the arts we love.

I can also guess which chain of schools you are talking about and my guess is that they could care less if they get any of their guys into UFC or any other big events. I can tell you first hand that it would do little to nothing to build their schools or their bottom line. The very small percentage of potential students that come through the door who are interested in being competitive fighters in MMA is hardly worth the time and effort from a financial standpoint (now an instructor's pride, that can be a different story). Or at least the ones who stay after the first few workouts. Most of the "I wannabe a cage fighter"-clowns who are attracted by this have no money to pay for training and usually go look for something else the first time they get hit.

Our schools have had many successful MMA fighters training with us regularly including Frank Shamrock (roughly 8 years), Bob Cook, and many others. AKA (American Kickboxing Academy) used to be a side program in one of our schools and many of the fighters and trainers from AKA train at our headquarters school on a regular basis. Strikeforce MMA (as well as K-1 USA) owner/promoter Scott Coker is one of our 6th dans. While this may be a source of pride for many of the instructors and black belts who get to roll or spar with these guys, our regular students don't care and many of them don't even know. The general public doesn't care what titles you have or what championships you've won, they care what you can do for them or what you can do for their child.

The benefit to the general public of MA schools switching from "KARATE" on the sign out front to MMA is simply that (hopefully) there is significant cross training and a solid base in each aspect of training. There will always be the McDojos that will try to just cash in on the popularity of the trend without building the skills required. Just like they did when they were teaching a substandard version of the TMA's that they watered down in the past. We will also see many schools that will evolve from their TMA backgrounds via legitimate crosstraining and put the time and effort in to truly be good. Some will likely even help to evolve MMA to a higher level beyond the standard MT/BJJ mix that is popular now by bringing in effective strategies and techniques from other TMA's and when they start winning in competition, others will pick these up as well.


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## matt.m (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez is right, the best MMA club in the area of St. L is Team Vaghi Martial Arts.  This guy is a 1st dan in Judo, a 3rd dan in Rickson's brand of Gracie JJ.  However, he has a great kickboxer/boxer for an instructor.  He has a great Wrestling coach that teaches freestyle and Greco.  He doesn't teach anything but the GJJ he was taught.

On his site he has the bio's of all the styles offered.  I have been to his gym.  It is all fine and dandy.  He has students that want to learn GJJ only and those who want to compete.  His MMA competition is quoted from his site as a "Sport".  However, the training is no joke.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Dec 16, 2008)

Kwan Jang said:


> I can also guess which chain of schools you are talking about and my guess is that they could care less if they get any of their guys into UFC or any other big events. I can tell you first hand that it would do little to nothing to build their schools or their bottom line. The very small percentage of potential students that come through the door who are interested in being competitive fighters in MMA is hardly worth the time and effort from a financial standpoint (now an instructor's pride, that can be a different story). Or at least the ones who stay after the first few workouts. Most of the "I wannabe a cage fighter"-clowns who are attracted by this have no money to pay for training and usually go look for something else the first time they get hit.


I agree with this.  I don't think the chain I'm referring to is interested with getting anyone into the big shows either.  The tag line in their new TV commercial is, "You don't have to be a cage fighter to train like one."  Then they promote getting into great shape building confidence etc.


Ybot said:


> I think I know exactly which chain of schools you are speaking of, and from what I've heard, yes it is a McDojo. That's not to say you won't learn anything by going there, but from what I have heard a lot of it's tournament sucess comes from flooding tournaments with large numbers of it's students. Makes the odds more in their favor. From what I have heard their grapplers are not well reguarded over all.


That makes a lot of sense of what I noticed when looking at their records.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

We have a saying here that if you say you're a cage fighter, you're not. her we're fighters/martial artists or we do MMA. Only wannabes say they are cage fighters lol!


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## zDom (Dec 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> We have a saying here that if you say you're a cage fighter, you're not. her we're fighters/martial artists or we do MMA. Only wannabes say they are cage fighters lol!






Cages ... don't fight back!


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2008)

zDom said:


> Cages ... don't fight back!


 
that's why we don't say we are cage fighters!!

it's such a ridiculous phrase isn't it!


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## K831 (Dec 16, 2008)

My cage fighting record; 12-0-1 (8 cages by KO)

I'm not a cage fighter, I'm a cage killer! 

lol how true. Silly phrase.


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## Kwan Jang (Dec 17, 2008)

I have an old friend who has had a long and successful career as a pro wrestler. About the time he was in the WWE (maybe right before then), he started a program to teach "Pro wrasslin'" (sorry, I actually have respect for real wrestlers and have trouble calling this by that name) at the local gym we worked out at. You would not believe the motley crew who came in there on Sundays to "live their dream" by learning to be a "pro wrassler". Many had serious hygine problems, most suffered from "summer teeth"(sum here, sum there, a lot missing). The cast of the next "Deliverence" remake had just been found. It's been at least a decade since he "taught this program", but many of the "I wanna ba cage fighter" crowd that come by my school remind me of those would be "wrasslers".


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## matt.m (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, like the Karate Kid II refrence that z put.....instead of Tree don't hit back.......same with a cage......
Best reference would be guns don't kill people, they are a tool used for killing, people kill people.
:asian:


zDom said:


> Cages ... don't fight back!


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## LoneRider (Mar 1, 2009)

Sounds a lot like the MCMAP motto: "One Mind, Any Weapon." I still remember when Col. Bristol spoke to my graduating class at the Academy, that was one phrase I forever would remember.


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## SensibleManiac (Mar 1, 2009)

McDojo's can take many shapes and forms.
Basically a school that is all about the money.
Check the place out and the instructors credentials.
Does the place seem like it's all about getting your money?
The most important aspect I find is how focused are they on the students skills and learning and safety?
A good school of any kind be it TMA or Modern will take the students seriously and not just appear to be about the money.
Take a close look at the students training there, what do they seem like?
Are some of them skilled?
Do they seem positive or does it seem like they all think they're the next champ?
Ask about the focus? 
Does the instructor only pay attention to those that are competing?


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## LoneRider (Apr 20, 2009)

> McDojo's can take many shapes and forms.
> Basically a school that is all about the money.
> Check the place out and the instructors credentials.
> Does the place seem like it's all about getting your money?
> ...


 
I shall keep that in mind. Thank you very much. 

Does anyone know any really good BJJ training gyms near any of the larger Army posts?


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