# No retreat in Wing Chun ?



## mook jong man (Jul 2, 2011)

Over the years I was told by several of my instructors " That there is no retreat in Wing Chun " 
But strictly speaking it is not true is it , granted I can't think of any techniques where a full backwards step is taken.

But I can think of a few where you shift back a few inches or take half a step back , or even pivoting back with a step to yield to a greater force .

Most of these are used strategically to cause the opponent to over extend themselves and lose balance or pull them into a waiting strike.

What are your thoughts on this subject Wing Chun / Wing Tsun brethren ?


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## WC_lun (Jul 2, 2011)

I've been taught that same thing.  In a way it is true, as "retreating" for a WC person means just a shift to create space.  Well trained WC guys don't step straight back though, which you do see in other sytems when they are pressed on the center.


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## Jake104 (Jul 2, 2011)

I like to fight using my common sense. So if I need to retreat, I will. Just depends on the situation. There are plenty of times where charging in will get you hurt. Like a larger opponent or a weapon. Just to name a few.
Jake


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## tenzen (Jul 2, 2011)

I was taught this same thing. Although I was also told that it refers to achieving such skill that you can difuse/disperse whatever energy comes at you. Also it applies to life in general, stand your ground take what comes at you and deal with it accordingly.
There is a saying that goes "even when facing a thousand enemies I will smile" I believe that is the same thing as saying no retreat.


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## geezer (Jul 2, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Over the years I was told by several of my instructors " That *there is no retreat in Wing Chun "*
> 
> What are your thoughts on this subject Wing Chun / Wing Tsun brethren ?



I was taught the same thing... although we do turn aside or yield ground with short steps _if pressed back._ Generally when the opponent gives us an opening or withdraws, we step forward, if he presses back forcefully, we ride the force back, withdrawing our front foot and flowing back into "character two" stance (aka "yee gee kim yeung ma" or "IRAS") and turning to dissolve the force. Sometimes we also use a bit of a "crab-step' or lateral step with the turn. With a very forceful opponent, the cumulative effect of this is that you do yield ground, _but you never stop exerting your forward pressure._ I think this relentless forward pressure, even when giving ground, is what the "no retreat" motto is referring to.

Otherwise I'm with Jake on this. Common sense is good to have!


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 2, 2011)

What if i say i'm not like the others , what if i say i'm not just another one , I see your face , you're a pretender what if i say i will never surrender? ` Foo fighters.

Well if i'm forced to retreat its because i need to come back stronger?

 i heard this saying from a budo ryu school instructor during an interview , she said , when you're out matched or outnumbered , the best defense is to not be there. Come back stronger.


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## mook jong man (Jul 2, 2011)

geezer said:


> I was taught the same thing... although we do turn aside or yield ground with short steps _if pressed back._ Generally when the opponent gives us an opening or withdraws, we step forward, if he presses back forcefully, we ride the force back, withdrawing our front foot and flowing back into "character two" stance (aka "yee gee kim yeung ma" or "IRAS") and turning to dissolve the force. Sometimes we also use a bit of a "crab-step' or lateral step with the turn. *With a very forceful opponent, the cumulative effect of this is that you do yield ground, but you never stop exerting your forward pressure. I think this relentless forward pressure, even when giving ground, is what the "no retreat" motto is referring to.*
> 
> Otherwise I'm with Jake on this. Common sense is good to have!



I reckon you are spot on there , it has to be about the forward pressure even when physically moving back , I don't really think it could refer to anything else
Because in a lot of circumstances it just makes damn good sense tactically to shift back a few inches.

We have a technique called shift and advance that used to be taught to juniors to deflect a side kick to the gut  with a cut down from the guard .

In ordinary circumstances cutting down on the back of somebodies calf muscle with your forearm might result in a bit of a clash , but when used in conjunction with a shift back a few inches (just enough to make them miss) the result is a rather efficient deflection , and of course after he has extended his kicking leg and hit air you charge straight back in.

You could also use it against a knife slash to the mid section , shift back , make him miss , and charge straight back in before he has a chance to recover.
Its only a slight momentary shuffle back but you have full control of your balance and are able to explode straight back in again.

There's also about two traps in chi sau that I can think of that use a half step back , usually used against somebody who is bullishly pushing forward .

What these have in common is that the opponent is over committing and wants to go forward so we just let him go forward but add an off balancing technique such as sinking our bridge on his arms  as we move back , the result is he gets pulled straight down into a strike .

I think its just another tactic to employ when you encounter resistance , rather like using pivoting , it just adds another force vector into the mix that the opponent has to deal with .

For example if I'm trying to latch the guys arm down to hit him but he is tensing his arm up and resisting then I can pivot and pull his arm down that way .

Or I can take half a step back and do it that way , he is only prepared to deal with the one force vector of my arm pressing down on his , but when I pivot , his arm and body is now getting pulled slightly out to the side and his body off balance from the pivot as well as his arm being pulled down.

Same with stepping back , his arm is getting pulled down , but he is also getting pulled forward and off balance at the same time , makes it very hard to resist when two force vectors are acting at once.

So in my opinion shifting back is related to the use of multiple force vectors in Chum Kiu same as pivoting .


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 2, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Over the years I was told by several of my instructors " That there is no retreat in Wing Chun "
> But strictly speaking it is not true is it , granted I can't think of any techniques where a full backwards step is taken.
> 
> But I can think of a few where you shift back a few inches or take half a step back , or even pivoting back with a step to yield to a greater force .
> ...


 
They say the same thing in Xingyiquan however there are a few moves that are definitely backing up. However those moves also have strikes (attacks) in them. Xingyiquan philosophy is attack is defense and defense is attack.

Could it be Wing Chun is similar in this approach and that is what they are talking about?


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## Eric_H (Jul 2, 2011)

To paraphrase Sifu John Wang:

In Taiji classic they say never to attack first.

However, if you sleep with a taiji master's wife, you'd better believe he'll attack first. 

All pieces of combat are situation dependent, even retreat.


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## yak sao (Jul 2, 2011)

This kind of reminds me of something my old si-sok told me once. 
He said "in WT we never spin, and when we do we spin quickly"

He was showing how to deal with an arm lock where someone is cranking/barring your arm up behind your back. He showed the spin with a rear gum sau attack to the groin,  as an "oh crap" technique for when you had been caught off guard


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## tenzen (Jul 3, 2011)

Faisal she isn't reaally a she and budo ryu is a joke. Even the name makes no sense. This was talked about in another thread. And yes the best thing is to not be there but if your in that situation guess what, your there.


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## profesormental (Jul 3, 2011)

Greetings.

You can retreat to absorb pressure, give way or create space, specially beginners. Forceful attacks hurt quite a lot, and getting out of the way is sometimes an alternative.

The thing is that you need special footwork and alignment mechanisms to step back and keep forward structure. Otherwise, it is lost.

In Chi Sao, though, lateral movement is preferable; forward through the centerline is even better!

Hope that helps!


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 3, 2011)

Hmm tenzen I'm not the best person to say budo ryu is a good art or not because i really haven't studied into it , but i guess you're right , when you gotta fight you gotta fight.


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## WC_lun (Jul 4, 2011)

A retreat is a move designed to garner space to recover.  If someone is pressing on your center, retreating back is not going to achieve the desired effect.  There will be no reset so you can come back stronger unless you are fighting someone who is inexperienced in fighting.  Experienced fighters from all training tpes will press the advantage when they get it.  If you are backing up, you are recovering and your energy is split.  Two undesirable states.  I am not saying there are no circumstances where backing up is not the correct choice.  However, backing up is a lot less desireable than what I see coming out of practitioners of many other fighting systems.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 4, 2011)

The tyranny of words deserves care. Retreat is such a word. provided the ygkym training is good you can take a stepback under pressure and simultaneously strike or evn throw, IMO. In our chum kiu after double palm and heun there is step back.

joy chaudhuri


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## Danny T (Jul 4, 2011)

Retreat is an act or process of withdrawing or receding from a position or state attained; the forced withdrawal from an enemy or from an advanced position

Yield is To give way to pressure or force

Maintain is to Cause or enable a condition to continue

The wing chun principle of no retreat means to never have loss of contact. It does not mean to never yield against pressure or movement in order to maintain positional control.

If no retreat means to never give/yield or to never step back or the the side then much of Chum Kiu and Bil Jee training is a waste of time. What is the spirit of Bong Sao if not to yield to pressure yet maintain control?


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## bully (Jul 5, 2011)

A tough one this, I too had always been told about never going backwards in WC.

But for me (who isnt that great) it is pretty difficult not to buckle under pressure and start running backwards lol.

More Chi Sau required for me I think.


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## Domino (Jul 5, 2011)

What Joy said, 1 step is part of our forms.
But also like said before and imo ... every situation is different and if you make mistake use the step or recover, never more than 3 steps. Stepping is part of the triangle, forward or backwards.


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## Eric_H (Jul 5, 2011)

Danny T said:


> The wing chun principle of no retreat means to never have loss of contact.



This may be a matter of semantics, but "No retreat" is not a principal - it is a maxim or saying. Principal is supposed to be something more equivalent to a universal law. 

Also, i disagree. Wing Chun can and does break contact when it is to our advantage, either to advance or retreat.


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## Jake104 (Jul 5, 2011)

Here's something to keep in mind about sticking. When fighting or sparring with another WC practitioner, contact will be easier to maintain. Why, because the WC opponent plays the same game of maintaing contact. When fighting non WC opponents this becomes more difficult if not impossible. An experienced fighter will not let you stick or maintain contact without making you pay for it. The main objective in a fight is to strike and hurt the opponent. Sticking should only be a tool to achieve this.

Jake


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## askinghands (Jul 5, 2011)

Has nothing to do with sticking.  If you can't regain the center with kwan, a structure push, or something of the like a step back in the appropriate direction might just do it for you.  Imagine dropping a triangle block into a square hole.  It will bounce around a little bit till it finds it's center again.  Same concept, just keep trying to find the center and your body will do the work for you.


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## Jake104 (Jul 5, 2011)

While the triangle block is bouncing around a little bit finding center. That little bit may allow for a take down or strikes to it's head.Jake


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## geezer (Jul 5, 2011)

Jake104 said:


> The main objective in a fight is to strike and hurt the opponent. Sticking should only be a tool to achieve this. --Jake



I just had to quote this. It's so obvious... yet a lot of people forget it!


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## askinghands (Jul 5, 2011)

Jake104 said:


> While the triangle block is bouncing around a little bit finding center. That little bit may allow for a take down or strikes to it's head.Jake


If you have proper structure the chances are low.  I'm serious when I say quite literally your body will bounce around for you.  It actually feels pretty cool!  I don't like getting into what if's in these kind of discussions, there's what if's for everything in every system.  We're talking about wing chun structure and when and how retreat "usually" happens, right?


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## Jake104 (Jul 5, 2011)

Fair enough. I don't like to get into the what if's either. But the above are not what if's . The're most likely's.


The maintaing contact part, was in response to others stating no retreat for the reason of maintaining stick/ contact.




.Jake


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## mook jong man (Jul 6, 2011)

I think the consensus is that we all agree that circumstances will sometimes dictate that we have to shift back.

But a point worth mentioning is , if we are moving back how can we generate power in a strike that is going forward ?
How can we transfer our body mass  into a strike when our body mass is going backwards?

The short answer is you can't because the force vectors are at odds with each other , to generate power in your strike your body mass has to be stationary or moving forward as you  strike.

In other words that retreating  rear leg is going to have to be firmly planted into the ground before you execute a strike , in my own training I've found this to take some quite careful coordination and is not as easy as one would think , it seems to be a lot harder than synchronising a forward step and punch.


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## Jake104 (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree . I would also sink my COG , maintain proper stucture , and utilize joint alignment/ inch power when punching. Another option would be to step back a half step more than needed, then spring foward with punch.


Jake


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## Jake104 (Jul 6, 2011)

An example of the half step more approach is similar to what Kongo did to knock out Pat Barry. Just use WC principals.

Jake


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## profesormental (Jul 6, 2011)

Greetings.

As I mentioned before, for keeping a stable structure while retreating or stepping back that can withstand load, certain movements (Alignment Mechanisms) have to be executed. This way, you can strike or withstand pressure effectively even while yielding space, which can happen, and must be prepared for.

As mook jong man said, this is not trivial and it is not common knowledge. I can show this easily yet it is hard to write about because of the lack of uniformity in postures and stances and their names and execution.

So I will propose an experiment. It is a comparative experiment in which you will notice the difference in load capacity of your stance/posture (by the steady pushing of a study partner against your shoulders to test your posture stability).

For lack of uniformity, take a forward facing stance that you would use for striking, not a YGKYM. The one that looks like a T stance yet your feet are in two "lanes", not one in front of the other.

Now notice how stable the stance is by having a study partner push you. You should be able to hold the pressure without collapsing. If you collapse under the pressure, then ask for the experiments to develop systematically a stance that does not yield... that way your striking should have lotsa more power if you have this posture at the time of impact.

Onwards.

Now step back a certain way, step through, push-drag reverse, etc. After each, notice the posture you end up with, and test for stability. Notice if it is better, the same or less stable.

Now, do the stepping back again, yet after stepping back, "stomp" your front foot immediately after the back foot plants. Now test for stability. Notice if it is better, the same of less stable.

Now test with different ways of stepping back. Then report. Have fun!

Juan Mercado
from the labs of Martial Science University - Puerto Rico campus
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina


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## bully (Jul 6, 2011)

We did quite a bit of back stepping with strikes in KF school. It reminded me of how weak I am going backwards, how off balance I was and how uncomroftable I felt.

I would suggest lots of practice for the, ahem, less skilled amongst us (like myself).

Going straight back with step drag (or whatever you do in your lineage) was not too bad. As we have all drilled this to death over the years.

What I liked doing was when we were made to go backwards striking in rear zig zags using circle step and step drag. I was all over the bloody place, my strikes were crap and I felt under more pressure as I wasn't used to it. A bit more real world not going back in a stright line. Was tiring on my legs too!! we did it forwards too and usually 3 chain punches with a hand reset after but before the next step.


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## mook jong man (Jul 6, 2011)

I find the heavy bag is a pretty good indicator in regards to the timing of my back step with a punch.
If I can get the bag moving back about as much as I can with my forward step and punch then I know the timing is close to being correct.

It's really just a matter of waiting till your rear foot hits the ground then launch the strike , as with the step and punch going forward , when you get the timing correct you generate a lot of power without much perceived effort .
But when the timing is off the opposite seems to be the case.


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