# Does Anyone Know This 8th Dan Hapkido



## Black Belt FC (Nov 10, 2004)

Grandmaster Aleksey claims to be 8th dan Hapkido, does anyone know him???? 

Anyone higer than Gm's Thomas and Whalen for example should be well known......


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## Disco (Nov 10, 2004)

Were is he from and what does represent?


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## Disco (Nov 10, 2004)

Found it.........................

http://www.ironfist-hapkido.com/ifhome/Our_team.htm


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## Paul B (Nov 10, 2004)

Hmmm....."Hapkido Shoes"??


Something tells me....:bs: 

Maybe someone who actually knows him will come along...but the vibe I get from that site is ...well....interesting. Anything "Ancient" and "Royal" with "Iron" and "Fist" in it sets of my red-flag-o-meter. That's my 2 c's.


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## Kumbajah (Nov 10, 2004)

"Iron Fist Ancient Royal Hapkido, teaches and instructs the following elements to beginners with their training: Understanding Iron Fist Ancient Royal HapKido, understanding Combat HapKido,..."

Combat Hapkido - hmmmmm

Maybe a Clue

Brian


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 10, 2004)

More Clues.............................


This is from their website..........

"
Dear Hapkido Federation Members, and friends

It has been a very successful season for the Iron Fist Ancient Royal HapKido Federation. Without your continued support and participation in this federation, the teachings of our art of Iron Fist Ancient Royal Hapkido would have not been publicized like it is today. We take this opportunity to thank those who have helped to make this possible.

The New Membership Certificates are ready for distribution for this year. The different types of Certificates that are available this year, according to your personal needs or qualifications, are: The *Annual Membership Certificate fee* is still only *$25*. Associates Certificates fee is only *$100*. This Membership is required to be re-newed annually. The next type of Certificates that are being distributed are the *Black Belt Certificates*. The dues for these Certificates are: for first degree *$600*., second degree *$1000*, third degree *$1500*., and fourth degree *$2000*. respectively. Another type of Certificate that are available exclusively only to the Association Members, is the *Official Letter of Appointment*. This is a necessary requirement in order to become a *Sanctioned and Certified HapKido Instructor*. This Certificate can be issued at a fee of *$500*.

Once again, the Federation thanks you for your continued support.

Sincerely,

Master David, MA, Ph.D. (h.c.)
Federation President 
"


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 10, 2004)

Their history is even more interesting reading.....................Historical???




The origins of the *Martial Art of Hapkido* reach into history over 3000 years ago. The spread of the Art is closely tied to the spread of Buddhism. Its techniques were handed down through travelling monks and royalty as a means of self-protection and defense. Both Buddhism and Hapkido became popular among the Korean upper classes and Royalty.

When the three kingdoms of Korea united and became the KOROYO dynasty, many Hapkido Masters were called to the Palace, and Hapkido became a Royal Martial Art.

After many years, as B uddhism began to be replaced by Confucianism, Hapkido seemed to disappear among the general population. It was, however, kept alive by monks and Royal officials, and practiced in secrecy.

The practice of the Art was again revived during the Korean Conflict in the 1950's. Since that time, the ancient Martial Art has spread throughout the world.


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 12, 2004)

Black Belt FC said:
			
		

> Their history is even more interesting reading.....................Historical???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I heard one of the participants in Royal Super Dooper Hapkido Federation say this about his master:

My Master can kill anyone he wants!  He cuts off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it.  This guy is so crazy and awesome that he flips out ALL the time.  I heard that he was eating at a diner.  And when some dude dropped a spoon my master killed the whole town.  My friend Mark said that he saw my master totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.

(Credit goes to http://www.realultimatepower.net/index3.htm)


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## howard (Nov 12, 2004)

he's also a high dan in jido kwon tkd, lol.

the art is ji do kwan, and it is not a form of tkd.  it is a predecessor of tkd.

paul's got it right.... run the flag up the pole.


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## Baytor (Nov 12, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> "Iron Fist Ancient Royal Hapkido, teaches and instructs the following elements to beginners with their training: Understanding Iron Fist Ancient Royal HapKido, understanding Combat HapKido,..."
> 
> Combat Hapkido - hmmmmm
> 
> ...


I didn't see anything on that site that indicated any association with the International Combat Hapkido Federation.  I think that they were using the phrase "combat hapkido" as a general discription for close quarters combat.  At least, that's what I'm really hoping, because this guy really looks full of crap.
I know that you guys don't have a lot of respect for Combat Hapkido, but I can tell you that we're not all imcompetent mcdojo scamartists.  My instructor is very good, otherwise I wouldn't be training with him.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 12, 2004)

"Ok, folks. Next item is marked "Hapkido Integrity". 'fraid its a bit dinged up. 
What do I have for an opening bid? "

"Ok. Lets start at a dollar. "

"Ok. How about a dime? "

"a nickel?" 

"How 'bout a plug nickel? "

"C'mon, Folks, I can get that much for just the 11th dan certificate that goes along with it!! C'mon. Whatamy bid?" 

(Sheesh.... and people wonder where my attitude comes from........)


Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 13, 2004)

Hello all,

I am curious, why was this guy singled out to be questioned Master Lugo?  Is it becasue  he is in the same state as you or the same area?  Is it his credentials, rank, what is the issue here?

Again, some weird stuff on this site such as:  "Weapon techniques include training with the short stick, staff, knives, cane, halberd, sword, handguns, and shotguns."


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 13, 2004)

Hi



This gentlemen and school is not in anyway competition to my school in anyway, I mainly ask for more info since I met him in person. On our encounter he promptly requested to know my rank, which I freely gave, once received he promptly informed me of his 8th dan a grade which is backed by his federation. 



The issue for me is that therere good Hapkido Master out there for example Whalen, Thomas, Timmerman (Canada), West, Shaw to named a few who are the front runners of Hapkido in America and should be recognized as such. When someone comes along and claims high rank is it not justified to question them? 

I have nothing againts this gentlement , in fact he invited me to his school, but prefer to check-up first before I do that. 

Lugo


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## American HKD (Nov 13, 2004)

Greetings,

This Guy hasn't done anything to anyone on this board, and I find it extremely dis-tasteful and in bad character to be singling him out and making fun of what he's doing!

I think you should all stop immediately!


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## glad2bhere (Nov 13, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

I am hard-pressed to find where anyone has taken you to task for your particular view of Hapkido arts and their practice. Similarly I am unable to find where this gentleman has networked with other Hapkido practitioners or has validated his training or practice in any way. What I HAVE identified is a person who has assumed the use of the term "hapkido" and ascribed to himself a significant position in the leadership of this art. I have no problem with him doing this. It goes without saying, however, that when a person takes to himself such a position, that he will be able to authenticate or validate that position or prepare himself to accept the consequences of his choices. Failing that, perhaps he is best served by folding his tents and selecting another art to exploit. In the final analysis I am not sure that I am willing, any further, to sit by quietly while yet another individual uses the art I have studied for near two decades to feather his nest. Were that the case I humbly submit that you can send your $$$$ to me and I will do my best to furnish you with the fancy wallpaper of your choice. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 14, 2004)

Black Belt FC said:
			
		

> The issue for me is that therere good Hapkido Master out there for example Whalen, Thomas, Timmerman (Canada), West, Shaw to named a few who are the front runners of Hapkido in America and should be recognized as such. When someone comes along and claims high rank is it not justified to question them?



Do you mean Scott Shaw?  Ponytail Scott Shaw? A leader? You lost me there.


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## American HKD (Nov 14, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> I am hard-pressed to find where anyone has taken you to task for your particular view of Hapkido arts and their practice. Similarly I am unable to find where this gentleman has networked with other Hapkido practitioners or has validated his training or practice in any way. What I HAVE identified is a person who has assumed the use of the term "hapkido" and ascribed to himself a significant position in the leadership of this art. I have no problem with him doing this. It goes without saying, however, that when a person takes to himself such a position, that he will be able to authenticate or validate that position or prepare himself to accept the consequences of his choices. Failing that, perhaps he is best served by folding his tents and selecting another art to exploit. In the final analysis I am not sure that I am willing, any further, to sit by quietly while yet another individual uses the art I have studied for near two decades to feather his nest. Were that the case I humbly submit that you can send your $$$$ to me and I will do my best to furnish you with the fancy wallpaper of your choice. FWIW.
> 
> ...


Bruce,

Don't get defensive here. I too don't like it when people make false claims regarding thier status in HKD, but you don't know what he knows or doesn't know. 

The best way to find out is call him or e-mail him if your concerned about his credentials and you might as well call all the people who make similar claims I sure you'll find no shortage of people.

But really there's not much anyone can do without a universal governing body of sorts. 

Save that for another thread if you please.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 15, 2004)

Dear Stuart:  

I'm not sure at all how you are getting "defensiveness" out of my post. And how is it that what I am saying needs to be saved for another thread? I think I was quite clear. 

Someone asked why not appraoch GM Seo regarding where he received his rank from. I said I had posed this question and related the response I received. What part of this is unclear?

As far as the role of leadership,  it may be that your more liberal approach to such things is skewed in some fashion which I do not understand. Placing that to oneside I can state only that if a person represents themselves as a "leader" in the Hapkido community I feel I have license to expect that they actually LEAD. For me this is much more than simply assuming a title, determining marketing strategies or performing photo-ops. As Rudy pointed out, GM Seo is still teaching and I would expect no less. I also think it is fair to expect that GM Seo take a pro-active approach in reconciling with other Hapkido leaders to present a more unified art. I DON'T consider simply advocating his own particular brand of Hapkido leadership per se. As we have seen, any putz with a self-appointed 10th dan can do that much. People like Ji, Seo, Lee and Kimm have name recognition in the Hapkido community and I would like to see them use that name recognition to benefit the larger Hapkido community. 

You may want to ask yourself why some 4th Dan Nobody from the American Midwest has to work overtime to get a minimal standard, uniform nomenclature, adoption of a single training do-bok, etc. going while these suppose leaders are counting their cash. Whats up about that? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Nov 16, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> This Guy hasn't done anything to anyone on this board, and I find it extremely dis-tasteful and in bad character to be singling him out and making fun of what he's doing!
> 
> I think you should all stop immediately!



For what it is worth i was contacted some time ago about this person and I contacted several Men that have been in Hapkido Longer than myself and also asked about this guy ?

They have never heard of him either ? Is Master Lugo off base ? NO he is not, he asked a simple question from people that  "TALK" about the wrongs of Hapkido and what is to be done 

Does this man list Who he trained with ?  Where ? when ? no he does not why ? Is he ashamed,trying to hide something ? Ask me about my Master's and I will give you their phone numbers.

When this NUT from Germany claimed to invent this NEW Hapkido everyone jumped on him ? Does it matter Do you teach in Germany ?

At what point do we listen to the questions ? 

Lugo anytime you have a question contact me. I will as i have done in the past get you an answer or find someone that will.you have earned my respect let the "talkers talk" 

HAPKI.....

Hal whalen


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## whalen (Nov 16, 2004)

glad2bting strategies
You may want to ask yourself why some 4th Dan Nobody from the American Midwest has to work overtime to get a minimal standard said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell they are all promoting Hapkido in their own way. I can assure you they would rather channel their energies in a more constructive way than, such major decisions as uniforms.
> 
> All of these So called leaders all have their own standards maybe next they should consult with you first.
> 
> ...


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## glad2bhere (Nov 16, 2004)

I would not mind being consulted but what I would want to know before anything else is what their vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido community divided and at each others' throats. 

How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together. Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community. 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Nov 16, 2004)

I would not mind being consulted but what I would want to know before anything else is what their vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido community divided and at each others' throats. 

I suppose to some the idea of a single uniform might seem petty. Ok. Then how about a common nomenclature? No? Well how about a common kebonsu? No? Well how about a cohesive goal for the future? No? Well then, how come the Internationale in Jackson was started by a Westerner? 

Its real convenient that each major Hapkido personality has his own turf (how did you put that? Each doing in his own way?) and keeps his troops at odds with everyone else. But what about the average practitioner? These vaunted leaders have ingrained their pettiness so deep that it is now second nature to anyone else who even hopes to have a constructive if critical discussion about the art. The average practitioner just toughes it out as best he can. 

How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together? Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community. 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 16, 2004)

Greetings,

..........How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together? Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community......

Bruce that's funny.

They can't or don't want to and I'm tried of trying to figure it out. 

Why did the KHF bail out of the US last year when they had a great opportunity with many good people ready to do something?

Why did they fire Master Bae?

Why did'nt they let Hal have any control here?

Why didn't they screw Fabian Dugue?

Why didn't they etc., etc, etc.?

That all still blows my mind and tells me you have to do you own thing help when you can, learn where you can, and make friends with people of high morals.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 16, 2004)

Absolutely 100% Right! 

And THATS why I think these strings for the last couple of weeks have been so very important! If we continue to wait for guidance from the folks we identify as "leadership" we will never get any encouragement or advice on how to pull things together. What I could imagine happening is that we learn to face down our respective devils' and teach ourselves to communicate intelligently about what we do without the judgements because it is the judgements that seem to be undoing all the good stuff. 

For instance, we don't have to all agree that the Korean Han Bok should be a standard. Some people like the HDGD people use such a uniform and so do the Taek Kyon people and thats good for them. I have a student who took a mock-up with him and is going to see if he can get such things made out of canvas in the "old country".  Its a resource--- use it or not. 

For instance, we can continue to chew on the Minimal Standard. Its creeping along a little bit at a time. Its there for people to use. Its a resource--- Use it or not. 

For instance, over on the WARRIOR-SCHOLAR net they are hammering out a kind of Universal Pressure Point and Strike Point chart. The location is named, and crossed to Korean and then validated with a acupuncture point when possible. Its a resource--- use it or not. 

This is what I am talking about. If the leadership can't get past their hang-ups to give up a uniform taxonomy than we adults can get together and hammer one out for ourselves. No Money. No Authority. No Permission. No Waiting Around for a Voice to Boom Down from the Heavens. Just folks working together to make the Hapkido better, thats all. People are welcome to drop in or drop out as opportunities open up. 

But enough of the waiting for somebody else to hit us with a magic wand. 

Lifes too Short. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Nov 17, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> ..........How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together? Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community......
> 
> ...




Stu, 

Give me a  call some time this morning on my cell phone, i lost your number it was in my old phone.

I can fill you in on some things . I know you from the past and anything i have told you stayed with you the same for mike T. 

Others agree and the first chance or at their convenience it is used against you.

HAPKI....

Hal


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## American HKD (Nov 17, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Absolutely 100% Right!
> 
> And THATS why I think these strings for the last couple of weeks have been so very important! If we continue to wait for guidance from the folks we identify as "leadership" we will never get any encouragement or advice on how to pull things together. What I could imagine happening is that we learn to face down our respective devils' and teach ourselves to communicate intelligently about what we do without the judgements because it is the judgements that seem to be undoing all the good stuff.
> 
> ...


Bruce,

Who are the leaders and what to they do for the Hapkidoin anyway except issue rank? In your case you have Myung and that's good maybe you have some brotherhood or something else that keeps you there and your lucky for that.

In my case I don't feel I have anybody right now a connection if you will. Hals been a great guy but I'm not part of his Kwan. I was accepted into Ulji Kwan but those guys dropped off the map. I don't want to be with my old teacher it's a road to nowhere. 

Ji has been very helpful but he's not into playing a role of a supreme leader and wants the SinMoo guys to fend for themselves. Which on one hand is the ultimate lesson in what we're talking about "enough of the waiting for somebody else to hit us with a magic wand" go make it happen. Ji really believes once he gives you the Hapkido tools that's it go fly from the nest and make your own way. 

So at this point I need to fully explore my own potential and make my own way FWIW.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

".......Who are the leaders and what to they do for the Hapkidoin anyway except issue rank? In your case you have Myung and that's good maybe you have some brotherhood or something else that keeps you there and your lucky for that.

In my case I don't feel I have anybody right now a connection if you will. Hals been a great guy but I'm not part of his Kwan. I was accepted into Ulji Kwan but those guys dropped off the map. I don't want to be with my old teacher it's a road to nowhere......." 

And I would bet that there are a helluva lot more folks just like you out there. You probably started off as a guepping on the escalator up through the ranks. Then about first or second degree, just about the time your Hapkido should have been awakening to fruition, you found your teacher was petering out.  When I was in Korea I truely felt absorbed into the kwan and everyone was working to help everyone else develop. The teacher (Dojunim Kim) was a kind of paternal figure who was also extraoridarily skilled and gifted. As much as he fussed over his students they in turn looked after him to make sure his needs were cared for. Here is the States its all a cash-and-carry quid pro quo: "I pay you dollars, you teach me techniques." OK, well, if thats the way that its going to be then I guess the "kids" are just going to have to pull together and help each other out. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Nov 17, 2004)

Back in the mid-eighties there was an attempt to unify Hapkido and it was working on the surface .

It was called the World Hapkido Federation it was a non -profit organization Ji,Han Jae,Gedo Chang, Won Sun Jung. Lee Jung Bai and a host of who's who in Hapkido were members everything went through a board it was "GREAT" seminars conducted At Dojangs were for the cost of brining a master there To assist the dojangs.They all agreed on a curiculim and a set of standards.

I thought it would be in the best interest of Hapkido if I affiliated since i was approached several times by master Myung to join for the sake of Hapkido  in the U.S when i joined a lot of Americans followed suite.

Unfortunately greed took over once the money came in Master Myung pushed forms stating this way students could do forms like the Tae kwon do people, this did not go over well especially when he stated that they were approved by Choi YounG Sool and the higher ups new this was not true.

In a secret meeting held by one one man he decided to make the group for profit with him keeping the profits WITHOUT telling anyone else Dan Fee's increased about 400% for the same certificate. Also you were required to host a specific amount of seminars to show your dedication.

Next came the meeting when Ji, Han Jae was ousted without being present shortly after that EVERY korean master Quit..... Why ?

In concept it would have been great But Ego's and who got to control the money Ruined it and who was senior to this one,etc....

I also left but it had hurt the relationship It took years for me  to form with my instructor. I have repaired the Damage and i have decided it would be the last time i made a stupid move like that. 

This is not the first attempt nor would it be the last I have seen it happen more than once and it is usually with the same players all wanting to control the money.

Hal Whalen


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

I'm sorry. 

How does post #28 have anything to do with what is being discussed? 

Bruce


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## whalen (Nov 17, 2004)

Maybe you should reread it. Before being so judgmental, you asked WHY do they not try to unite THEY DID,,,,,, you just do not want to hear the reasons why it failed, because your instructor was at the Helm and ran it into the Rocks.

I f you want me to write what you want to hear perhaps you should write for me ......

Maybe Mike T is correct, and just let those that talk, talk  this forum serves no real purpose other than some here will have an audience or try to persuade those that are easily influenced...

I have to admit this post no longer serves in the best interest of Hapkido only those that like to see their name in print this is my last post you are cutting to valuable time that i can spend on the mat.....

Hal whalen


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

......................and that is how it goes. 

Had this been a string about unifying under a particular authority, Hal would have stayed around. But since its just about Hapkido people working together without benefit of gain to any one individual he has no time for it. Since I have been around for at least a "little bit" I didn't need the information about why people failed to organize under a particular authority in the past. And since the discussion is not about organizing under a particular authority (mostly because it HAS failed in the past) it would have been nice to have his in-put. Maybe this is at the heart of our problem, yes? If a person can't be centerstage they don't want to be on the stage at all. We have a lot of work to do, and it doesn't get done by people cutting and running from the problems. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 17, 2004)

whalen said:
			
		

> It was called the World Hapkido Federation it was a non -profit organization Ji,Han Jae,Gedo Chang, Won Sun Jung. Lee Jung Bai and a host of who's who in Hapkido were members everything went through a board it was "GREAT" seminars conducted At Dojangs were for the cost of brining a master there To assist the dojangs.They all agreed on a curiculim and a set of standards.



Hello all,

Hal, I cut this quote a bit, but this to me was one of the examples of the conspiracy in this country with some of the Hapkido "higher ups".  This group in my opinion misled everyone into believing that they were uniting for Hapkido...In fact, it was a ploy to avoid crossing territorial lines.  Won Jung and Chang Gedo were in Northern Illinois for example, they were going after the prize of Chicago.  Chang Gedo has always kept the same curriculum, Wol Ge Kwan - with BAD forms and everything.  I spent 5 years trying to retrain a group of his students from the early 70's becase their technique was so watered down.  Won Jung (one of Choi, Yong Sul's earliest students) taught a much more rigorous, traditional way, and as a result never had many students at all in Hapkido - in fact, the last time I spoke to him, last year, he refuses to teach Hapkido at all, just teaching "easier" Taekwondo because "that is what Americans want".

The whole charade was bound to fail when they all started breaking their own rules, trying to set up little groups in each others turf - perfect example of Ji attempting to lure Chicago's oldest martial arts school to include his Hapkido by offering the Chief instructor an 8th Dan when he couldn't spell Hapkido (his remark).

Unite Hapkido, no, they didn't want to do that at all, they just wanted to avoid turf wars, but their greed caught up to them.  

However, these discussions we have here have nothing to do with turf.  No one here as I have seen as any vested financial interest in getting people to "change sides" - but we must come to a certain level of understanding about what we will accept as Hapkido and its associated ranking systems so that we do not fall into the trap of a conspiracy of silence ourselves.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

"......However, these discussions we have here have nothing to do with turf. No one here as I have seen as any vested financial interest in getting people to "change sides" - but we must come to a certain level of understanding about what we will accept as Hapkido and its associated ranking systems so that we do not fall into the trap of a conspiracy of silence ourselves......" 

.......and since the famous names we all know have not done much about this during their watch, I think it falls to us to do something about it. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

.......and since the famous names we all know have not done much about this during their watch, I think it falls to us to do something about it. FWIW. 

Kind of falls into a "catch 22" dosen't it. As a collective of but a handful of people that practice an art or variant thereof, we have no real attentive voice to implement anything that would be accepted by other's. Herein lies the "22". Rank / standing does furnish the platform for attracting other's to at least listen to a presentation. 

As for the WHF story that Hal and Kevin addressed, this only adds to the validation or justification for something new to remove Americans from under Korean direct control. Not just "another" organization, but one that honestly stands for something. The basic core cirriculum formulation that's being attempted is a great starting point, but for it to come to acceptance, it should be tied to an anchor of some kind (i.e. an organization).


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

But that is exactly my point. What if this has nothing to do with "attracting people". What if its just a matter of people pooling their knowledge and resources without thought of what they are going to get out it? Thats been the problem all along. Most people will not do anything unless there is something in it for them. OK. I can accept that. My invitation, though is to make the effort NOT to make that the controlling or deciding variable. Make sense? Lets say there are five or ten people who know that they can rely on the rest of the folks in the group to stick with them, share their experiences, act as sounding boards, validate ideas, stir in their in-put to the database stew so-to-speak.What if, when Hal was doing his curriculum he could have bounced his curriculum off of 30 or 40 Hapkido practitioners? What about those people on WARRIOR-SCHOLAR that are putting out that Pressure Point Chart. Think they got permission to do that?  Who from?  Why is it that folks simply will not let go of the idea that someone has to be in charge, that there needs to be rules and regs and an organization and cash-flow etc etc etc. 

I made a trip out to NC to do a seminar for some TSD folks. They were nice enough to give me a gift certificate. JR West drives the "Stealth Van" to seminars all over the States and I don't think hes' independently wealthy because of it. Rudy Timmerman goes wherever hes' invited. And not too long ago you were talking about starting some sort of domestic organization based on home-grown talent. What so different except I am not talking about a tightly structured organization with more rules and regs and paper. I mean, look at you!! You are communicating with me. You've already joined, haven't you? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

Bruce, yes we are communicating, but only on a temporary basis. We are nothing more than a small group of people offering opinions, which unto themselves will have no bearing on the hapkido world as we now know it. 

Ill use your reference to Hal offering his curriculum for review to 30 or so different hapkidoin. Now for any of these people to have any respectable input, for Hal to entertain, they must have one of two things. Either on the mat interface with either Hal or someone he knows that can verify said individual or paper from a known organization that stipulates rank / ability (subjective I know). So it still comes back  the vicious circle  to an organizational standing of some sort. Thats the only thing we have to honestly evaluate people when we use the internet to formulate ideas. 

I know I sound like a broken record and I see were Stewart is starting to receive some flak on another thread for proposing a new organization, but to my way of thinking, its the only way to get out from under and at least try to do the right thing. As you have pointed out, I guess its up to us, the old guard is content to maintain the status quo.

If and when you are able to put together this new core curriculum for general hapkido exceptance, who will it serve? Everybody already has training thru their own curriculums. You are willing to take the time and energy to undertake this assignment and I applaud you for your efforts, but it imo, it serves little purpose outside of this forum. Now to establish said curriculum to define a minimum standard of acceptance for a governing body to evaluate and train its students and review cross over people seeking to align, then you have something tangable. 

Respectfully
Mike


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

So, if I might extend your rationale a step further........ 

We have approximately 5 significant organizations, none of which want to defer to the other. And your solution is to start yet a sixth organization in the fervent belief that THIS organization will magically/mystically do what none of the other five organizations and their internationally recognized head have been able to do. 

The fact is that a new organization will not work because the basic premise is deference which is something everyone expects of others but which noone will give of themselves. People want the benefits of the structure that an organization brings but resist the conformity that same structure requires. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SenseiBear (Nov 17, 2004)

These threads have been absolutely facinating!

If I were conducting this experiment, I would want to see Stuarts new organization adopt the open-source, living, changing Minimum Standards that Bruce is developing.

It would be neat to get reps from the 5 existing organizations to contribute their input into the open source standard, which could modify itself until it was something they all thought was a decent minimum...  None of them change their standards, but they agree that someone meeting those requirements is in general, a black belt.

just an outsiders thoughts...


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

We have approximately 5 significant organizations, none of which want to defer to the other...................

Let me see if I can list them; Kido (Seo)(has split and now there's 2)
                                        WHF (Myung)
                                        KHF (x 2)(Lim & ?)
                                        IHF (Han)

Notice a similarity among them? I realize that I am not going to change your mind on this issue. I have listened to all the rhetoric on unity, self reliance, brotherhood, etc...... By your own words and I may be taking them slightly out of context, but the intent is the same, .......and since the famous names we all know have not done much about this during their watch, I think it falls to us to do something about it. FWIW. 

So what should we do about it exactly? And just what is "it" in your opinion?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

I don't think I can make the "it" any clearer than what I have expressed as "it" bumps up against various issues. 

To put it as concisely as possible: 

*I am advocating an "open source" approach towards standardizing what we do and what we are until such time as politics and affiliation have been brought back into perspective. * 

That is as clear as I can possibly be. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

Greetings

Mike makes alot of good points throught-out this thread, but what is an organization of standing?

The KHA/KHF started because there was a need to unite many seperate Kwans at that time. The KHF is nothing more than a group of Kwans that united and agreed to issue centralizied rank. Why do they have power only because many united under one banner. WE MUST DO THE SAME.

There are many Kwans here in the USA so to speak who should do the same as I outlined elsewhere.

Most of us are students of top Masters or founders like Ji Han Jae we learned what our Korean brothers learned and need be beholden forever. We need to control our own destinies. 

The older Korean folks will be gone in the next few years are we going to be controled by the next generation of Koreans and start the cycle over again?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

".......The KHA/KHF started because there was a need to unite many seperate Kwans at that time. The KHF is nothing more than a group of Kwans that united and agreed to issue centralizied rank. Why do they have power only because many united under one banner. WE MUST DO THE SAME......" 

I understand what you are saying but you are not telling me how such an organization would avoid going down the same road as the KHA/KHF. Even if they started out for the most idealistic reasons possible, its quite a apparent that the mission somehow became distorted. If you are bound and determined to start yet another organization, how does one go about not repeating the mistakes of the past?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".......The KHA/KHF started because there was a need to unite many seperate Kwans at that time. The KHF is nothing more than a group of Kwans that united and agreed to issue centralizied rank. Why do they have power only because many united under one banner. WE MUST DO THE SAME......"
> 
> I understand what you are saying but you are not telling me how such an organization would avoid going down the same road as the KHA/KHF. Even if they started out for the most idealistic reasons possible, its quite a apparent that the mission somehow became distorted. If you are bound and determined to start yet another organization, how does one go about not repeating the mistakes of the past? Thoughts?
> 
> ...


Nothings fool proof is it you have to work at it when problem arise.


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## Disco (Nov 18, 2004)

Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass. 

Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached.


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 18, 2004)

Greetings everyone,



I couldnt fathom in my wildest dreams that a simple question would invoke so many debates and let alone a few arguments. I apologies for those that may view this tread as counter productive but invite further cerebral stimulation.



Thank you Master Whalen for your vote of support and respect; my sentiments are mutual. I will invoke your help in the future on these sensitive matters. 



Yes! I agreed that a Central American organization is needed, but fear that therere too many barriers at play. Im not talking about who will be in charge thats too easy, current high ranking Hapkido Master should be consider. Im talking about the one corner stone that always gets overlooked human nature. If this organization is to survive and bear fruit everyone must put their personal hostility aside, make amends and compose them selves the way professional martial artist should radiant.



I apologies in advance to my superior Hapkido seniors if I sound as if Im on a high horse, this clearly is not my intentions. My intentions to see an American Organization flourish are very selfish. I will love to see the day when all Hapkido practitioners can at least agreed to work with each other and make Hapkido more widely respected. Moreover, students and instructors will respect their Hapkido seniors more since the high ranks are aligned to work together and will not permit rogue instructors or students to jeopardize Hapkido or the fellowship. 



If this were to take place in a NON PROFIT organization with free elections I dont see why it shouldnt work.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass.
> 
> Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached.


Mike,

Your Right about that you'd have to accept a certian amount of people on reputation at first.

Or take the time to check out people individually but I would'nt actually test them in a formal sense.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

"......Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass. 

Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached......" 

I would not call it an "impasse", but its definitely a problem to be solved. I think that starting up new organizations has become such a natural affair that folks are willing to try running before its been demonstrated that anyone can crawl. 

 What is all of this talk about a "minimum core curriculum" when you have not even established such a curriculum to begin with? 

And where did this idea of being "accepted" into an organization come into being? So we will have people who are "accepted" which means, by definition, we will have people who are NOT accepted? And what do the not-accepted people do? Isn't that what we have right now? We have disenfranchised Hapkido advocates and this organization will do what?--- disenfranchize them AGAIN? 

And how did it come to be that people are going to "test" other people? Would you all sit still if I specified myself as sitting in judgement on YOUR skills?  You all seem to be in an all-fire rush to lay judgement down on people, which is EXACTLY how we got into the place we found ourselves with organizations before! There seems to be this need for a judgement that results in "insiders" and "outsiders"; "good guys" vs "bad guys". Let me give you something to think about.

 In the PGA, who are the "good guys and who are the "bad guys". How about on any given football or baseball team? How about in any given dochang? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? You all want to cut Hapkido up into quarrelling parts so that there will be an elite and enlighten few and everybody else are outsiders. You don't seem to get the simple fact that we are all part of the same dochang but related through different teachers and at different geographic locations. No wonder we can't do any problem solving! All I hear are people talking a better game plan but still wanting it to produce folks in rarified positions of respect and regard. I'd like to see us problem solve but its not going to happen THIS way. Been there done that and bought the T-shirt. Lets try again--- with something different, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Nov 18, 2004)

So what are you saying? Form a big "study group"? Or...just come and learn Hapkido and maybe get a new perspective on it. That sounds good to me.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

Paul B said:
			
		

> So what are you saying? Form a big "study group"? Or...just come and learn Hapkido and maybe get a new perspective on it. That sounds good to me.


Paul 

Something like that a little more formal as to follow a curriculum for the goal of learning the Art.

But in general you are right.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

No, Paul. What I am saying is that for several centuries Koreans taught martial science in "study groups". They are called "kwans".  Somewhere along the line somebody got the big idea to use the Japanese approach for organizing things with ranks, and licenses, and organizations, and grandmasters and supreme grandmasters etc etc etc. Now this was OK for the Japanese as they had gone so far as to make warriors a separate and elite strata in their culture. The Koreans never did this. All of this crap that people think is so important was never a part of Korean tradition until sometime during the Occupation. What you have right now is the residuals left over from the Occupation and what ex-pat brought back from Japan when they came home. Oh yeah, we CALL what we belong to "kwans" but they really aren't. They are actually bad copies of what the Korean ex-pats thought the ryu-ha system was all about. You see, we TALK about practicing Korean arts but organizationally what we do is a bad Western interpretation, of a corrupted Korean copy of Japanese culture. And we have been living in this nightmare for so long that we have forgotten that it is possible to wake-up------ if we want to. 

The strength of Korean culture is that they pull together, and without having to be told how to do it. We don't see the beauty of it because we, like every other person on Earth are NOT Korean, and so, are the outsiders they are surviving against. The crap we see here in the States is stuff laid on us by Koreans who have come to this country because they weren't cutting it in the "old country". We don't speak Korean, so they could tell us that ANYTHING is "genuine" Korean culture and we would believe it because, after all, THEY have that epicanthic fold in their eye that guarentees they are the authority--- and as we all know authorities don't lie, do they? So we keep doing our bad impression of their bad copy of Japanese culture. 

AND-----

WE have the power to stop doing this, IF we want to. 

THATS what I'm saying. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Nov 18, 2004)

I'm sorry, but now I'm totally confused. Bruce, I still don't really know what your driving at. You speak reverently upon Korean culture and expect us to be enamored with it, when it has been the Koreans themselves (as you pointed out) that have fostered the situation that people are trying to right. How can WE have the power to stop doing this, IF we want to., if we can't / don't remove ourselves from under their thumb? Those 5 major organizations that were referenced in another post are all controlled by the Koreans. 

"You see, we TALK about practicing Korean arts but organizationally what we do is a bad Western interpretation, of a corrupted Korean copy of Japanese culture. And we have been living in this nightmare for so long that we have forgotten that it is possible to wake-up------ if we want to".

OK, how do we "wake up" and just what do we do? On an individual basis I know what to do and did it many years ago, but on a group setting - what's the ticket? I'm getting mixed information. On one hand you don't see the need for another organization, but on the other hand you present the problem (above) and stipulate to wake up. I feel I'm going in two directions at the same time.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> "......Stuart, after giving some additional thought to this position (New Organization) and even though I am for it, I think there is a major road block for it ever coming to pass.
> 
> Even if there was a minimum core curriculum drawn up and approved by forum members, there is no way to implement it. For initial acceptance into this new organization, how can people be evaluated as to the minimums. It's either accept at face value their current certificate of training or have an actual pre-acceptance testing. I don't know how the testing could ever be accomplished if that was the choosen route. In all honesty, I think an impasse has been reached......"
> 
> ...


Bruce,

You can put a road block up for anything or *go over it*.

I have been working on some core system for about a year although not set in stone. I would be doing it for my own students regardless of the outcome here.

Accepted member means as I posted "to be a member you have to hold a 1st dan from the group or be a student of a member instructor."

Which means you have the knowledge of our curriculum. Not the in the exact order but the "applicable skills".

That can be deterimed two ways. 
1. By a member instructor valging for the person.
2. By a member instructor meeting the applicant and seeing what he knows informally. 

As far as who can test whom any 3 member instructors should be able test anyone, one dan below thier own rank. The group will then issue it's rank certifcation.

Lastly if it's deterimed that a applicant needs more training to meet our curriculum we should do all we can to help the person achieve the goal.
The standard of course is set up to insure Hapkido is around for the future and people have great expirience in a politically free enviornment.

That's the mission statement more or less. 

If people dont agree with our goals they can go else where. Nobody's all things to all people.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

I'm sorry but what is it that is unclear to you about what I wrote. 

a.) WE are NOT Koreans, so invoking Korean ways of doing things organizationally (IE: Neo-Confucian underpinnings) does not work for us. 

b.) The things that we are thinking are "Korean", again, and that we are trying to implement are, of themselves NOT Korean. 

c.) The organizational method for solving problems which people are touting only works in a highly-structured culture such as Japan where compliance is considered a community duty. 

d,) If you want to solve the problems we face in the KOREAN M A then I suggest that we actually use genuine traditional KOREAN models and these do NOT include an organizational approach. We already SAY we have "kwans". How about we stop just using the word and start actually using the "kwan" model? 

What is it that you find unclear in points a through d? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> No, Paul. What I am saying is that for several centuries Koreans taught martial science in "study groups". They are called "kwans". Somewhere along the line somebody got the big idea to use the Japanese approach for organizing things with ranks, and licenses, and organizations, and grandmasters and supreme grandmasters etc etc etc. Now this was OK for the Japanese as they had gone so far as to make warriors a separate and elite strata in their culture. The Koreans never did this. All of this crap that people think is so important was never a part of Korean tradition until sometime during the Occupation. What you have right now is the residuals left over from the Occupation and what ex-pat brought back from Japan when they came home. Oh yeah, we CALL what we belong to "kwans" but they really aren't. They are actually bad copies of what the Korean ex-pats thought the ryu-ha system was all about. You see, we TALK about practicing Korean arts but organizationally what we do is a bad Western interpretation, of a corrupted Korean copy of Japanese culture. And we have been living in this nightmare for so long that we have forgotten that it is possible to wake-up------ if we want to.
> 
> *Nicely said*
> 
> ...


Lets do it.

So far only one senior Master as contacted me and I really don't know if that person is committed to my ideas yet althought he has thought about it before.

I heard it said by a senior already who's going to accept our rank? The point is we don't care we all good enough to validate each other (isn't that what any other Assoc. does anyway?) That kind of thinking will keep us under thier control forever.

Basically if my idea works out it will be beacuse Many Istructors/Masters pull together and support it.

If they dont' for whatever reasons and each can make have thier own excuse, we will continue to have the same crappy system for another generation. Then everyone can blame the Masters and Instructors for not being strong enough to stand up for all of us in Hapkido!


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## Paul B (Nov 19, 2004)

This sounds great. Thanks for the clarification,Bruce.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Dear Stuart:

".......So far only one senior Master as contacted me and I really don't know if that person is committed to my ideas yet althought he has thought about it before.

I heard it said by a senior already who's going to accept our rank? The point is we don't care we all good enough to validate each other (isn't that what any other Assoc. does anyway?) That kind of thinking will keep us under thier control forever.

Basically if my idea works out it will be beacuse Many Istructors/Masters pull together and support it.

If they dont' for whatever reasons and each can make have thier own excuse, we will continue to have the same crappy system for another generation. Then everyone can blame the Masters and Instructors for not being strong enough to stand up for all of us in Hapkido!......" 

Sorry, Stuart. Please read my new string, "Sandlot Hapkido".  Using my metaphor from that string I would say that you are still looking for approval from the "big kids" on the next block. We don't need approval or permission. At last check we are grown adults. If the kids on the next block want to play with us that's OK in my book. If they want to come in and start pushing their rules, and telling us what to do then I choose not to "play with them" because they "don't play nice."  I wish I could say this is more complex and exotic but its really a very simple concept. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> ".......So far only one senior Master as contacted me and I really don't know if that person is committed to my ideas yet althought he has thought about it before.
> 
> ...


You lost me? 

Moreover I don't need approval I need fellowship. 

My idea is for a group effort of seniors who are basically saying we don't need anyone but ourselves to make this work. We don't need the approval of the KHF, WHF, and so on.

I already have me, myself, and I at my school what's that prove?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 22, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

Thats not the message that I get at all from your posts. I don't know what everybody else is hearing, but what I think I am reading is someone who wants "fellowship" but wants it within some sort of structure for an as-yet unspecified reason. 

For my part I would enjoy the fellowship as well. It would help me to know that when I get on a mat with someone we are, somehow, on the same page as far as what we are there for, how we view what we do, what we call what we do, respond to what each other does and so forth. Somehow I don't get the impression thats really what you are after. Frankly, I for one am not sure WHAT it is that you are after. You came down pretty hard on Rudy because he wasn't jumping in on what it was you were after. You STILL haven't told people what it is that you are jockeying for. So far I know that you view a new organization as necessary. You apparently want some sort of criteria but are a little vague on the purpose. You want senior practitioners to sign-off on your efforts but are likewise a little vague about what they are affirming. Somewhere along the line I'm afraid you are going to have to light someplace and get real honest about what you are angling for.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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