# Why long NOW?



## Kirk (Dec 29, 2002)

After doing some reading on kenpo seniors, and even martial
arts seniors, I've seen that quite a few got their black belts
REALLY quick.  Most under 2 years (most that I've read).  Mr
Ibrao's web site claims that  *ED PARKER* awarded him with
a black belt in *9 months.*   How long did it take Mr Parker
to earn his?  

Now we're in a system where 4 years would be considered fast?
What changed?  

Not just kenpo either.  I heard a _rumor_ that Chuck Norris
earned his black belt in under two years, IN KOREA!

Has martial arts been dumbed down?


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 29, 2002)

Sometimes we need to look at the individuals in question. Some people do nothing but live kenpo karate. Look inside the journey throughly; see people the people who said they trained 10+ hrs. everyday 7 days a week. This may help you seek some of your answers.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 29, 2002)

Dumbed down?  I dont know....

Taking longer?  Definately. 

Why?  $$$$$

Student gets Black in 1 year.  Say you charge $50/month... thats only $600 for you.

Make it a 4 year program, charge them for every belt test (which is held during regular classes), charge them for every stripe test (again held during regular classes), make them pay an organization fee every year or revoke their rank...  Now you have several thousands of $$ from them.

Welcome to big business.  Given that I've heard from several different, -long time- kenpo seniors that the only reason Yellow belt is there is for the $$...well, you figure it out.

I don't agree with the over commercialization of the arts, nor do I agree with forcing someone to be in a minimum amount of time before awarding a belt, nor do I agree with the 'guarenteed to have a black belt in 4 years' shtick.

I don't have a problem with earning a living from the arts....just the nickle and dime you to death mdojo mcbozos.

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 29, 2002)

Jason hit another part of it on the head.... individual ability.

Some folks are either born martial artists, or have the chance to focus on the arts and develop into one.  Others fit it in where they can, and sometimes take lots of time off.

Most folks hit the arts in a hobbiest way.  We aren't militia, so we sont need to be combat ready in 6 months.  Take Tai Chi for example...theres some incredible combat techniques in there...but most people see it as streching for old folks. :shrug: 



(Thanks for the reminder on the individual part.)


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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2002)

When soldiers were learning in the Orient in the 1950s and 1960s, 1 or 2 years was not uncommon. Yes, it's changed.


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## Mike (Dec 29, 2002)

I had the same thought today. I was reading Joe Lewis' biography on his site http://joelewiskarate.com/  which says that he earned his first black belt in 7 months.  I don't understand how that is even remotely possible. One of the reasons that I feel comfortable with the studio where I study is that they do not charge extra for belt or stripe tests.


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## Big Pat (Dec 29, 2002)

Mr. Parker's younger brother stated that it only took Mr. Parker one year to earn his Black belt. Please note that this is from Brown to Black. Something that was very rare for a student of Prof. Chow. His brother attributed it to his talent and photographic memory. Once he saw the techniques he could repeat them almost flawlessly. I have heard it said Mr. Parker spoke the same thing about a young Bruce Lee. Also,the large number of techniques did not exsist in Mr. Parker's early Kenpo. Mr. Sullivan has stated that there were only 25 or so base techniques in the beginning. It is also important to note that many of Mr. Parker's first students already  had martial arts experience, making their journey somewhat quicker to Black belt

.


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## ikenpo (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *but most people see it as streching for old folks. :shrug:
> *



Could we be a little more politically correct and use the proper term old _farts_ from now on ...thanks...:rofl:

jb:asian:


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## Kalicombat (Dec 29, 2002)

It's all about the Benjamin$$$$$.  Many schools I have encountered over the years dont even try to hide the fact that money is their main priority. They have BLACK BELT CLUBS where parents pay through a bank draft, sign contracts for two or three years so their kid can get his or her name on a wall under the title BLACKBELT CLUB. This tells the world, or at least everyone in the school, that these individuals are paying their way through the curriculum and that they will get their blackbelt. When you add in the promotion tests, which usually go up in price with each ascending rank, and the patches, belts, private lesson fees, required equipment that is usually available only from the school, the in school tournament registration fees that many schools charge, you are talking about alot of Benjamin$$$$$$. Then they through in the promotion pictures that are usually inflated to three or four times the cost, not to mention manuals, videos, and any number of other ammenities that creative instructors come up with to add to their monthly income and you have taken a pure form , and bastardized it for the sake of making a ton of cheddar.


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## Kirk (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Sometimes we need to look at the individuals in question. Some people do nothing but live kenpo karate. Look inside the journey throughly; see people the people who said they trained 10+ hrs. everyday 7 days a week. This may help you seek some of your answers. *



Yeah, I've heard this one too  (but not by all of them).  I've also
heard that Mr Parker denied it for a LOT who made those claims.
I heard that Mr Parker said "many were IN the dojo 10 hours a 
day, but not all were TRAINING IN the dojo 10 hours a day.  Many
in the Journey had families.  They must have been VERY 
understanding wives back then, to let their husbands either not
earn a living, or to be fine with their husbands spending an 
additional 10 hours outside of the home, in addition to the 8 or
9 they spent at work.


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## GouRonin (Dec 29, 2002)

That's right. It's all about the money. North Americans have made the black belt the cash cow of the martial arts.

These guys got their black belts the old way. When being a black belt just meant that you proved you were a serious student of what you were doing. So of course the time frames are different.

All this mystical mumbo jumbo is kee-rap.


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## ikenpo (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *That's right. It's all about the money. North Americans have made the black belt the cash cow of the martial arts.
> 
> All this mystical mumbo jumbo is kee-rap.
> *



Hey Now,

North America jr. (I mean Canada) isn't that far behind. I seem to have read a disclaimer on the WKKA site about BB's in Canada (that was money related)..and your favorite martial arts child molester really had a hold of the financial side of the martial arts down. So I don't think it is only the U.S.

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *It's all about the Benjamin$$$$$.  Many schools I have encountered over the years dont even try to hide the fact that money is their main priority. They have BLACK BELT CLUBS where parents pay through a bank draft, sign contracts for two or three years so their kid can get his or her name on a wall under the title BLACKBELT CLUB. This tells the world, or at least everyone in the school, that these individuals are paying their way through the curriculum and that they will get their blackbelt. When you add in the promotion tests, which usually go up in price with each ascending rank, and the patches, belts, private lesson fees, required equipment that is usually available only from the school, the in school tournament registration fees that many schools charge, you are talking about alot of Benjamin$$$$$$. Then they through in the promotion pictures that are usually inflated to three or four times the cost, not to mention manuals, videos, and any number of other ammenities that creative instructors come up with to add to their monthly income and you have taken a pure form , and bastardized it for the sake of making a ton of cheddar. *



Slow down....I can't write that fast...ok, black belt club, private lesson fees, yada,yada,yada..thanks for the info....:rofl:


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## KenpoGirl (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Hey Now,
> 
> North America jr. (I mean Canada)  So I don't think it is only the U.S.
> *



Sorry to state the obvious but Canada IS part of North America.  Gou wasn't picking strictly on the US.  Stop being paranoid.   

Dot


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## ikenpo (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *They must have been VERY understanding wives back then, to let their husbands either not earn a living, or to be fine with their husbands spending an additional 10 hours outside of the home, in addition to the 8 or 9 they spent at work. *



Your kidding, right? :shrug: 

I think the national average on divorce rates just caught up with the martial artists' historical average.


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## GouRonin (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *your favorite martial arts child molester really had a hold of the financial side of the martial arts down.*



That's not all he had a hold of...
:erg:

Ha ha ha! I bet if he could he'd have started a _"Kenpo Diddler"_ association for like minded people.

I was talking about *ALL* of North America...and watch who you're calling _"jr"_ bub. We're bigger and we're on top. If this was prison, you'd be our biotch.


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## ikenpo (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I was talking about ALL of North America...and watch who you're calling "jr" bub. We're bigger and we're on top. If this was prison, you'd be our biotch.
> *



I guess that is true....so if we're like the head of everything, you'd be like our real big, bad looking toupee, huh?  

Oh, and peanut gallery (I mean Dot) feel free to chime in at any time, I'm not THAT paranoid...hey, what was that sound...oh, excuse me..... 


jb:asian:


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## KenpoGirl (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *I guess that is true....so if we're like the head of everything,  *



Ooooh Noooo  Americans aren't egotistical.  What ever gave you that idea.   
No such thing as a stereotypical American.  

Sorry JB I couldn't resist you left yourself WIDE OPEN for that one.  Besides you said I could chime in anytime.  :angel:

heh heh


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## GouRonin (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *I'm not THAT paranoid...hey, what was that sound...oh, excuse me.....*



It's only paranoia if they *aren't* out to get you.


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## sammy3170 (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike _
> *I had the same thought today. I was reading Joe Lewis' biography on his site http://joelewiskarate.com/  which says that he earned his first black belt in 7 months.  I don't understand how that is even remotely possible. One of the reasons that I feel comfortable with the studio where I study is that they do not charge extra for belt or stripe tests. *



I think it depends on what you get.  We get charged about $800 Australian (US$450)for our Blackbelt tests but we get an embroidered uniform, fancy plaque and  gold pendant so at least a decent portion of it comes back to us.  

As for the natual martial artist thing, I read that Chuck Norris failed his yellow belt grading so his natural ability must have come through after that.  I'm not taking anything away from Chuck but it just demonstrates that maybe natural ability wasn't at play there.


Cheers
Sammy


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## Robbo (Dec 30, 2002)

> I read that Chuck Norris failed his yellow belt grading so his natural ability must have come through after that. I'm not taking anything away from Chuck but it just demonstrates that maybe natural ability wasn't at play there.



You should read his biography. The test was held in the middle of winter in a dojo with no heat. They had to wait for hours in a seiza (kneeling) waiting for their turn. He seized up and forgot part of a form. They failed him. I'm pretty sure it was for BB though not Yellow, I'll check it and get back.

Rob


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Big Pat _
> *...Also,the large number of techniques did not exsist in Mr. Parker's early Kenpo. Mr. Sullivan has stated that there were only 25 or so base techniques in the beginning. It is also important to note that many of Mr. Parker's first students already  had martial arts experience, making their journey somewhat quicker to Black belt.*



Right.  In "the old days" I think Mr. Swan got his Black Belt from Mr. LaBounty and the last form in the System was Long 3.  I know Mr. Sullivan said there were only about 30 techniques in the system...

And, some of those guys were there several hours a day and apparently they were Fighting all the time.  So if they were there 10 hours a day but only training 2hrs... they still work out more than I do.  I'm lucky to do anything at all part of 3 days a week, much less 5 or 7.  

And we don't fight now like they did then either.  Ask Mr. Tom Kelly about "the safety equipment known as tape."  I think the learning curve is shorter when someone is trying to flatten you with his bare knuckles.  Especially if you are being graded on your fighting proficiency.

Mr. Duffy has said that there is a lot more material in our system now than for example when he got his Black in 72 or so, that the general Kenpo student is more "book smart" than students back then, but that back then generally speaking everyone was tougher.

What is the name of the Chuck Norris bio?  I'd like to read it.  Also, it was not uncommon for a serviceman in the Korean War to get a Black Belt in Korea before they came back to the US, no matter how long that was going to be... from what I've heard.

I think Joe Lewis' belt also supports the fighting prowess theory.  I mean you'd think that 7 months wouldn't be enough time to perfect Long 4, but then Mr. Lewis went out and proceeded to beat up every other black belt tournament fighter and kickboxer in the world, so he was primarily focused on fighting and sparring.

And I think if you go to his website now, he teaches a fighting system. I don't think he advertises it as much other than a fighting system.  I'm going to look into this myself because I need more fighting practice.  Our art is supposed to be comprised of 3 equal divisions:
1. Basics
2. Self-Defense
3. Fighting

I think most of the Old Timers came up while the Self Defense and Basics (forms and sets...) were being developed and that this also explains a lot.  If it takes 4 yrs to Black now, then you should be able to learn 1/3 the material in 1/3 the time which would be about 1.5yrs.  And if you were really fighting hard every day, could you do it sooner?  I think Mr. Tom Kelly said it took him 18 months to get to Black and (like Big Pat mentioned) Mr. Kelly was also Already a Black belt from somewhere else (from Mr. LaBounty?).

I think that if you can fight a good fighter, then the Basics are obviously being employed well and you won't have a problem with Self-Defense.  I suspect that if we go to Joe Lewis and try to explain/teach/defend Five Swords for example and go into the extension... he would likely prefer to slip the punch and knock you out and he would have a good argument for knowing Self-Defense as well as anyone.  

This is a complex question.  I think that the non-fighting parts of Kenpo have opened up the system/art to be more useful and practical to a non-professional athlete.

While Joe Lewis doesn't need Five Swords to defend a punch, I can take almost anyone off the street and get them to be effective with Five Swords MUCH faster than I can train them to be an effective competition fighter or street brawler.  If you look at the guys in the Journey most of them were pretty hard core athletes who could mix it up and a lot of them are in better shape than today's average student.  I think.  

Some of this is speculation but it represents a lot of my observations and theories so I thought I'd throw it out there to see how it goes over. :asian:

I see Gou is back with us.  I forgot how much longer all the threads were when he was with us.  Did anyone win a bet on him coming back?


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## Mike (Dec 30, 2002)

Nice post Doug. I like the idea the 'old timers' were more focused on fighting skills, and that the increase in volume of the material that needs to be learned is a main reason for the longer time requirements.  Some of the previous posts sound pretty cynical about the money aspect of things now.  If this were the case, all instructors would have vacation homes and would drive expensive cars, etc. My school offers supplies, etc. but I don't think there is much of a mark up there. They also do not charge extra for belt and stripe tests prior to black belt. Not everyone involved in martial arts is in it for the buck. (thankfully)


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## Brother John (Dec 30, 2002)

> Has martial arts been dumbed down?



Maybe instruction has improved?
Just a thought...
Your Brother
John


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## brianhunter (Dec 30, 2002)

Okay, the "better" fighters seems to come up a lot. So is our generation worse by choice? Or by litigation? There are guys out there that would fight bare knuckle NOW and probably be very good at it. Schools have moved away from it. Just because we fight differently (not by choice mind you) does not deem us worse as a fighting generation.
Would you run a school balls to the wall bare knuckle? How long before you get sued? Ill bet if you ran an old school beat the crap out of each other a lot of people would stay in attendance....but my money says that now a days you'd still wait 4-5 years even in that type of school because of peer pressure from other instructors......I dont know exactly how to feel about this issue but I know its something that kenpo people have made fun of other arts for when our history is full of it!!


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## jeffkyle (Dec 30, 2002)

If instruction has improved, then wouldn't the time it takes to get a student to any level be shorter than longer?  With better instruction wouldn't they be able to increase the learning curve so that the student learns faster?


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## brianhunter (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Maybe instruction has improved?
> Just a thought...
> Your Brother
> John *




If it has been dumbed down...wouldnt it take less time?

and also if instruction has improved shouldnt you be there quicker?

I dont know....seems like waiting in line because too many people are already the grand pobah I havent even gotten my hat yet


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## jeffkyle (Dec 30, 2002)

What I just said!


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## brianhunter (Dec 30, 2002)

well we have been known to agree from time to time


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Okay, the "better" fighters seems to come up a lot. So is our generation worse by choice? Or by litigation? There are guys out there that would fight bare knuckle NOW and probably be very good at it. Schools have moved away from it. Just because we fight differently (not by choice mind you) does not deem us worse as a fighting generation.
> Would you run a school balls to the wall bare knuckle? How long before you get sued? Ill bet if you ran an old school beat the crap out of each other a lot of people would stay in attendance....but my money says that now a days you'd still wait 4-5 years even in that type of school because of peer pressure from other instructors......*



I think that Mr. Parker had more famously great fighters as students and on his teams (even if they weren't students, they must have worked out with him somewhat) than there are in Kenpo right now so that is about all I have to go on.  Steve Sanders, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Ralph Castellanos, Ron Marchini, John Natividad, Benny the Jet all those guys from the New Gladiators.  They could probably take out most Kenpo instructors right now.  

I'm speculating of course.

And yes, I think the schools moved away from the hard-core fighting on purposes for legal and marketing reasons and that generally speaking a brown belt in Mr. Parker's Pasadena school  in 1965 could kick my butt today in a fight because of his training vs mine.

And no, I don't think Mr. Parker would have succumbed to any peer pressure.  If he wanted to promote a Black Belt in 2 years today I don't think he'd consider what someone else might think.

I know there are fighting schools out there still, but even Bob White focuses on Tournament fighting, but his guys are sharp and could do equally well without gloves from what I've seen.  Generally though there are less "fighting schools" than other types.  I know some HUGE schools that don't spar at all and/or don't let their students train elsewhere for that matter.  Seems odd to me.  I think Bruce Lee was right in that the more exposure you have, the better off you are.



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *I dont know exactly how to feel about this issue but I know its something that kenpo people have made fun of other arts for when our history is full of it!! *


I don't know exactly what you mean by this.


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

I especially meant to say earlier that I don't know what Kirk meant by this but I don't think it has been dumbed down otherwise we'd still have 3times the material but get a Black Belt in 1 year.

With the change in emphasis on 3 equal parts to the system and with us having to know roughly 6 times as many techniques, twice as many forms, and Lord knows how many more sets (I don't think some of the first guys had sets, especially since some of them invented sets later themselves), that this is adequate to explain a longer road to Black Belt no matter what else is going on.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 30, 2002)

The answer I think is, yes...and no....

Depends on where you are going.

Theres a reason why muay thai is effective with its limited 'technique' list.  I saw a pretty brutal system recently..had all of 12 techniques, all broken down into just 3 movements.  Bo spinning backfists, or boots to the head there.  

I've heard it said that you have the 'core' of kenpo at yellow belt...that everything else is just gravy afterwards.

In a world with 26yr old grandmasters, and 8 month in students running their own schools, has the level really gone up?  Dont think so.

In a world where most students are casual, has the elvel of student gone up? Nope.

Regarding the seniors, they all seem to have come in with some experience, there was alot! less material back then, so experience+less to learn = faster time.  I think thats like that with many systems.  Remy Presas called Arnis "the art within your art".  Why?  Because I've seen sooo many things that are either the same, or so similar between Arnis, Kenpo, Wing Chun, and JKD.  I've also seen major differences too.  But if you have the experience to see the 'sames' and the 'similar', all you really have to learn is the 'new'.  Right?

A punch is a punch is a punch is a punch.  Now that you know that, go learn 50 different ways to do it. Does it really matter if the only difference between 'thrusting rabbit' and 'flying kitten' is that you kick the right knee first, and then elbow the head, rather than kick the left knee and chop the junction of the neck?  A kick is a kick is a kick is a kick.  Now go learn 75 different ways to do that. A block is a strike is a block. Ohh..now we are getting complex.  

Thousands of black belts (and above) know little more than fancy dance steps, but will get hurt or worse in a real fight.  Many have never taken a shot nor thrown one.  The tourny player will eat them for dinner, and the trained fighter will have the tourny guy for desert.  

If you only had 12 techniques that are easily mastered, how much $ will you get long term from a student?  We spend more today to learn more, yet never perfect the basics that have always been there.  Our attention span is gone, so we 'play' at 3 reps twice a week for 15 techniques, then, get our belt, and move on, never to revisit them for 4 years until its black belt time...and have long since forgotten 'Short 1'.

I think for all the 'improvements' and 'extra techniques', we've gotten worse.  How do we fix it?  Ya got me...I'm just an orange belt.


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## Kirk (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I especially meant to say earlier that I don't know what Kirk meant by this but I don't think it has been dumbed down otherwise we'd still have 3times the material but get a Black Belt in 1 year.
> 
> With the change in emphasis on 3 equal parts to the system and with us having to know roughly 6 times as many techniques, twice as many forms, and Lord knows how many more sets (I don't think some of the first guys had sets, especially since some of them invented sets later themselves), that this is adequate to explain a longer road to Black Belt no matter what else is going on.
> :asian: *



Funny .. so many are saying that we have more to learn than they
did back then.  That their curriculums were by far, a lot less to 
learn than we have now.  But they were better martial artists.

Danger Will Robinson!  Does not compute!  Error! Error!


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## jeffkyle (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Funny .. so many are saying that we have more to learn than they
> did back then.  That their curriculums were by far, a lot less to
> learn than we have now.  But they were better martial artists.
> ...



And on top of that...still longer to black belt!


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## brianhunter (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think that Mr. Parker had more famously great fighters as students and on his teams (even if they weren't students, they must have worked out with him somewhat) than there are in Kenpo right now so that is about all I have to go on.  Steve Sanders, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Ralph Castellanos, Ron Marchini, John Natividad, Benny the Jet all those guys from the New Gladiators.  They could probably take out most Kenpo instructors right now.*



So do you think a good team of fighters couldnt be assembled now? These guys where exceptional dont get me wrong. But are we really fooling ourselves into thinking this? If you would have said something about a fighter like Mike Tyson (in his prime) would come along when Cassius Clay was fighting people would have called you nuts! How many tourneys where there to stand out in during those days? a few, how many today? thousands  



[/i][/QUOTE] 
And no, I don't think Mr. Parker would have succumbed to any peer pressure.  If he wanted to promote a Black Belt in 2 years today I don't think he'd consider what someone else might think.
[/B][/QUOTE] 

I did not say Mr Parker


[/i][/QUOTE] 
I know there are fighting schools out there still, but even Bob White focuses on Tournament fighting, but his guys are sharp and could do equally well without gloves from what I've seen.  Generally though there are less "fighting schools" than other types.  I know some HUGE schools that don't spar at all and/or don't let their students train elsewhere for that matter.  Seems odd to me.  I think Bruce Lee was right in that the more exposure you have, the better off you are.
[/B][/QUOTE] 

I think you are right in the more exposure the better, some instructors have problems with this though

[/i][/QUOTE] 
I don't know exactly what you mean by this. [/B][/QUOTE] 


Well Im kinda torn here I know how I used to feel about the whole how long is too long issue....I know someone who spent too much time as an underbelt and skill was not the issue. I guess i used to be optimistic but weighing the facts of what happened then as to what is happening now Im starting to think its a good ole boy thing.


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## jeffkyle (Dec 30, 2002)

> Im starting to think its a good ole boy thing.



It sure has seemed to have turned into that!


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *So do you think a good team of fighters couldnt be assembled now? These guys where exceptional dont get me wrong. But are we really fooling ourselves into thinking this? If you would have said something about a fighter like Mike Tyson (in his prime) would come along when Cassius Clay was fighting people would have called you nuts! How many tourneys where there to stand out in during those days? a few, how many today? thousands
> *



Excellent points. I was just saying that I think those guys trained hard and are still better than a lot of the generally available commercially-focused instructors.  That's all.

I mentioned Mr. Parker because I was not sure what instructors you were talking about.

I don't know about the Good Ole Boy stuff.  I think Mr. Parker never failed anyone on a Black Belt test but most of my instructors lean the other way.  I think it should be pretty clear though.  If they have a list of stuff to do to get to Black Belt then if you can do it, they should tell you what it missing.  If they want you to be faster, have more endurance, whatever, then they should tell you.  As long as the belt charts are there, you should be able to work through them, otherwise why have them?

You make many good points, I think I agree with about 90% of what you said even if I didn't address it specifically.  Good work.


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Funny .. so many are saying that we have more to learn than they
> did back then.  That their curriculums were by far, a lot less to
> learn than we have now.  But they were better martial artists.
> ...



I think Kaith put it pretty well, but I will say that in 1994 at Mr. Duffy's camp Mr. LaBounty was teaching a class and commented "I really have to learn the technique names."  He came up under a Tracy curriculum I think.  And after that camp he hooked up with Mr. Liles to get some of the later Parker stuff that he never got (I think he never got it).

But there were not many Black Belts at that camp who could take him.  I think he supports the observation that he knew less but was better.  The question is "better at what?"  Mr. LaBounty was not better at teaching the upper belt material with extensions than Mr. Liles I bet.  But Mr. LaBounty could punch through your spine whether you threw a kick, a punch or a club attack at him.  

If the effect you are after is to a) Not get hit, b) diable your opponent, then I think they had this in 1969.

If you want to know Exactly how that all happens and what is the best way to do it, then I think Mr. Parker had that pretty well nailed down by the time he died.

It's like this.  You don't have to know how to be a Chef to enjoy eating dinner, but a Chef would have a greater appreciation for a good meal, would know how to make one himself when he felt like it and could probably pick the right wine/aperitif to enhance the entire experience.

Does this make a Chef a better eater? 

P.S. Sometimes I REALLY surprise myself.  I think that Chef thing is pretty good!


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## Kirk (Dec 30, 2002)

Ah, but has the training to be a Chef been drastically altered in
the last 10 - 30 years?  

The $$$$ thing holds water well.  Mr Parker, Huk and a third
gentlemen (no disrespect, I can't remember the name) worked
together to establish a commercial program.  It had to have it's
$$$ appeal.  

Mr Labounty is one man.  By saying that he could punch through 
your spine is only relevant if:  All that trained with him during that
time could do the same thing, and none of those that trained 
later could do this.


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## GouRonin (Dec 30, 2002)

On top of being a good system in itself the EPAK system has a built in _"shelf life"_ if you will. It lays out a time frame in which people should be able to attain certain levels. This not only gives the person in the system a time frame to judge themselves on but it guarantees a certain level of income for the studio owner. the owner can always stretch out the time frame if the student needs more work but it guarantees that they will have a dedicated income from that student. So the time frames not only serve to produce a student of a certain quality but it also has a financial aspect.


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## cdhall (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Ah, but has the training to be a Chef been drastically altered in
> the last 10 - 30 years?
> 
> ...



My point was that you were only trained to eat initially, then Mr. Parker got into the Chef angle perhaps out of curiosity... but this is getting too complex a thread and I think I made my points.

I'm going to take time off at 499 posts since my idea of going back and forth with Gou for 15 posts didn't work out.  

Gou makes good points.  Mr. Parker needed something to sell for a Franchise.  Black Belt did an article on Mr. Parker's Kenpo  vs Bruce Lee's JKD years ago but I didn't see it.

Mr. Parker couldn't really say, teach these 25 techniques... have your guys fight alot and work on these freestyle moves and concepts and bring me in once every quarter to check them out and fine tune them.  I guess he could have, but he developed a more stand-alone approach I think.  Something you could buy and work on and call him or bring him in 1x/yr to help you personally if you got stuck.

Don't know.

My original point was that they trained to fight, to not get hit and to hit back originally but now we train to understand everything that is going on.

As others have pointed out this may not be good.  Mr. Scott said in Star Trek III "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."  I think Kenpo may have some of that problem now.  Mr. Conatser I think referred to "bookworms" being really good at explaining and maybe even teaching but less good at raining destruction down upon your enemies when they flinch.

Mr. Speakman's seminar was good for this.  You could see him unleashing death when he was demonstrating. 

That reminds me of a good quote Mr. White said at camp last year.  He said that when you were doing a demo with Mr. Parker, you were afraid.  The floor would shake, Mr. Parkers hair would shake, I think he said you would be moving, hearing what was going on, catch a glimpse of Mr. Parker and know that "death was close."  It was very funny how he said it.  I wish I remembered exactly.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 30, 2002)

Another point to keep in mind...belts exist only for -us- to keep score.  Problem is, comparing any 2 blackbelts is like comparing any 2 sports teams.  Might as well take this years Superbowl champs and pit them in a soccer match against this years World Series winner.

2 guys start the same art, at the same time, and reach black belt the same month...2 different schools.  So, who is better?  Shouldn't they be the same?  In a perfect world, yes.

Its like saying 'I have a college degree'.  So?  Did you graduate top of your class at Harvard, or come in last at the local city college?  Either way, you have a degree.  

I know a Kenpo instructor who holds his students to a very firm program.  It is not uncommon for his students to take over 10 years to reach blackbelt...and these are the 'serious, trains every day' students.  You can bet they know the techniques backwards and forwards, and can apply them real-world, not just do the 'dancing'.  Compare this with the local 'mcdojo' that gets you to black in 3 years, guarenteed. 

hell, i'm pretty good with photoshop, and have a wholesale account with a few suppliers...I can have a black belt and fancy cert by friday. What does it really mean? Really?

We complain it takes too long to get to a meaningless benchmark.  We then complain that you can't learn proper self defence in a 3 hour 1 day seminar.  Which is it?  It used to take 10-15 years to reach master status in kung fu....too long to train a soldier...so they streamlined it and got wing chun, to master in 3-5 years.  EPAK is an encyclopedic art... its got variants up the yinyang.  Add a punch and twist, suddenly ya have a whole new technique, 2 belts higher up.  How long does it take to memorize and internalize all that stuff?  

An encyclopedia has a million ideas, all defined.
A dictionary had 120,000 words, all defined.
the english alphabet has 26 letters.

Do the math.

If I want to master an art, expecially one that has the depth of forms, and the number of techniques, and the scope of concepts such as EPAK, I really hope they really test me, and don't just pass me along  and give me a belt to make me feel all warm n fuzzy.  The art evolved as EP figured more stuff out, and fleshed things out, and added in the profitability aspect.  

You want to learn to fight in a month, go take Muay Thai.  12 techniques.  You want to learn how your body moves in harmony with itself, go spend 10-20 years working Tai Chi.  Something like Kenpo is an educated, thinkingmans art.  K'veth the Sheepherder (who cant read or write) is not gonna be able to tackle it.

Kenpos now a complex art.  In the 'old days', it wasn't, and the folks who came in usually had experience.  Now, its got more depth, and has a lot of 'newbies' in it, who have no base to build on.  They have to build their base first.

You have a Kenpo BB?   Good.  Go get a BB in a different art...try Arnis or Wing Chun. WC should be easy if ya mastered Long 4.   I think if you have a firm foundation, you'll pick the other systems up faster than someone who is just starting out.

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *.. They must have been VERY understanding wives back then, to let their husbands either not earn a living, or to be fine with their husbands spending an additional 10 hours outside of the home, in addition to the 8 or 9 they spent at work. *



I doubt that they would be understanding. These guys were probably single and took their training seriously. I know I would be divorced if I did that.


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## Rainman (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Another point to keep in mind...belts exist only for -us- to keep score.  Problem is, comparing any 2 blackbelts is like comparing any 2 sports teams.  Might as well take this years Superbowl champs and pit them in a soccer match against this years World Series winner.
> 
> 2 guys start the same art, at the same time, and reach black belt the same month...2 different schools.  So, who is better?  Shouldn't they be the same?  In a perfect world, yes.
> ...



Pretty well stated... everything but the last paragraph that is .   Really if a person wanted to augment their Kenpo someone within the system probabley specializes within the aspect most desired.   The trick would be finding that person, but with the infromation age upon us- where there is a will there is a way.

 :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Dec 31, 2002)

Rainman ... You are scaring me... One of us is dumbing down or smarting up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I agree with you.

Dan


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## jeffkyle (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *well we have been known to agree from time to time *



I don't agree with people down on your level!


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## brianhunter (Dec 31, 2002)




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## jeffkyle (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Im trying to be adult about this.....Im going to ask you now in public. STOP! youve gotten your reaction, Ive put up with your mouth. Stop it, please. *



Too bad it is a bit too late for you to show you are an adult!


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

I didn't post earlier, but I'll post now.
What are you guys talking about?
Jeff, what is up?  Don't burn up the rest of this thread posting nonsense to Brian.  Do it in private or something

Where are the Mods?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 31, 2002)

Guys, 
  If theres a 'disagreement', please take it to PM, or Email.   I'm in agreement with Mr Hall here in going 'huh?".

Thanks.


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## jeffkyle (Dec 31, 2002)




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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I don't agree with people down on your level! *



Just what level is that? ....... Mr. Kyle?

:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *After doing some reading on kenpo seniors, and even martial
> arts seniors, I've seen that quite a few got their black belts
> REALLY quick.  Most under 2 years (most that I've read).  Mr
> ...



I would say that the time to black belt changed as the material required to attain a black belt changed. As Mr. Parker developed his system it became more sophisitcated. More sophisticiated material takes longer to absorb. I don't think it has much to do with money, but that's my opinion.

Hasta,
Billy Lear


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 31, 2002)

I have to agree with you Mr. Lear.


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## Kirk (Dec 31, 2002)

I'll definitely go with that Billy!  Let me ask your thoughts, 
however on people commenting on the superior abilities implied 
of those with less sophisication?

Would you say that more sophisticated does not equal better?
Maybe the abilities of those who came before us have been
exagerated?

Not trying to start anything at all bro, trust me.  Just trying to
discuss, and get some answers for myself.


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

Kirk,

If I spend 5 years working on 154 techniques and you spend the same 5 years working on a 3 techniques (Joe Lewis says he only really used 3 techniques in the ring but I don't remember what they were-backknuckle, side kick and a reverse punch I think) then your 3 techniques should be better my 154.

Wouldn't you think?

Joe Lewis certainly threw backknuckles and sidekicks at will.  He beat up a lot of guys.

We really only need to "dodge/slip/move" and "hit back."

The rest is all just a mental exercise.  Sparring tends to prove this out in my experience.


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## Kirk (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Kirk,
> 
> If I spend 5 years working on 154 techniques and you spend the same 5 years working on a 3 techniques (Joe Lewis says he only really used 3 techniques in the ring but I don't remember what they were-backknuckle, side kick and a reverse punch I think) then your 3 techniques should be better my 154.
> ...




So are you saying that less is better?


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

Not exactly.
It  depends on the practicioner/artist.

Less can be better.
Less may even have a good shot at being better.

An airplane is less complex than a space rocket, but a space rocket will smoke an airplane everytime especially if you are going into space....

Less can be better.  It is not by default.  I have smoked black belts in other systems that might know less than me but they just didn't seem to me to even know the 12 or 14 techniques they were required to know.

So, not necessarily.  It depends on the person.

If I have 15 legos and you have 115 who can build a "better" tower?  What is "better?" What kind of "tower?"

You see where I'm going.  The 115 guy has more options and can do stuff the 15 guy can't but if all you want to do is build something tall that won't fall over who is better?


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## Sigung86 (Dec 31, 2002)

Hi Doug, Hi Kirk,

Seems to me that it boils down to what you want.  If you want to simply defend yourself then, in actuality, a limited vocabulary of response is probably the better way to go.  If, however, you not only wish to defend yourself, but have a "life" study, then you obviously have the need for more material and more sophistication.

I do tend to be middle of the road on your previous thoughts.  While SGM Parker did raise the level of sophistication, he also had an eye toward making money... Look at how his "empire" was built and maintained.  Not saying he wasn't altruistic and true to the vision of his Kenpo, but when you are altruistic and true to a vision, you still gotta eat. :lol:

Dan


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *...but when you are altruistic and true to a vision, you still gotta eat. :lol:*



Hi Dan et al.,

I think Mr. Parker Jr. even told me/us (in a seminar once) that if Mr. Parker only had 6 students he could train the best fighters in the world, but that would not pay the mortgage.

If anyone (like Mr. C) has an actual quote and source I'd appreciate it if you could post it and straighten me out.  Thanks.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> If anyone (like Mr. C) has an actual quote and source I'd appreciate it.
> *



"If you want to dine with the "CLASSES" you must first attract and cater to the "MASSAS".

:asian:


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *"If you want to dine with the "CLASSES" you must first attract and cater to the "MASSAS".
> 
> :asian: *





I meant if you could give me the source... for the quote I posted.
 

But thanks.  You are like a Genie.  I speak and you show up and grant my wish.  Thank you.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> 
> "If I only had 6 students he could train the best fighters in the world, but that would not pay the mortgage".  Ed Parker
> 
> ...





:asian:


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## Robbo (Jan 1, 2003)

> What is the name of the Chuck Norris bio? I'd like to read it



"The Secret of my Inner Strength" by Chuck Norris

Rob


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Not exactly.
> It  depends on the practicioner/artist.
> 
> ...



I agree with you here. But, the 115 guy 115  should know his material well enough to build what he needs/likes more easyly, if he doesn't know, he will only get stuck not knowing where or how to begin. I mean, you have more possibilities of personalization with 115 pieces than with 15 only, so there's probably more material there in the 115 to fit your personal likes an interests. You just need more work to know it well.


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## cdhall (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I agree with you here.... *



Yea Brother!  I'm on a roll!
Thanks Kenpomachine.
:boing1:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I agree with you here. But, the 115 guy 115  should know his material well enough to build what he needs/likes more easyly, if he doesn't know, he will only get stuck not knowing where or how to begin. I mean, you have more possibilities of personalization with 115 pieces than with 15 only, so there's probably more material there in the 115 to fit your personal likes an interests. You just need more work to know it well. *



It's all just an example of motion. Here is a specifiic attack, here is your response. Keep the ones that work best for you, put the others in the back of the mind and refine your material. Substitute your strong suits in place of the ones you like the least. This is what it's all about guys. It's up to you to explore your own kenpo.


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## GouRonin (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *An airplane is less complex than a space rocket, but a space rocket will smoke an airplane everytime especially if you are going into space....*



An airplane would be better for traveling on earth. A rocket is better for outer space.

The right tool for the right job.


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## cdhall (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *An airplane would be better for traveling on earth. A rocket is better for outer space.
> 
> The right tool for the right job. *



Yeah, that was a stretch I know, but that is what I meant.  A guy with 3 techniques may be better than a guy with 154 until something goes "wrong" and he has to improvise.

I'm with you.


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## Kalicombat (Jan 1, 2003)

This thread has covered alot of bases; 16 vs 24, kenpo quotes, seniors, and even aviation and aerospace. Very entertaining. 
I think the one thing that has been missed is regardless of number of techniques, money spent learning them, etc... it all comes down to the individual when it comes to the moment of truth. John Kenpo Doe, with all 154 techniques, all the forms, and all the kenpo knowledge in the world is only as effective as his heart will allow him. Point sparring trophies aside, if John Kenpo Doe has no experience in an actual violent encounter, my money is on the untrained thug with a side of intent and desperation. Training, while it is necessary, is not the only ingredient that makes a fighter.  I put alot more people in the hospital long before I knew any kenpo at all, then since I have started training. True, I am alot more mature, no longer drink, nor frequent some of the places I used to, but as an idiot bar room brawler, I was very successful with no kenpo training at all. This is in no way bragging, I wish I had not gone through that bullcrap and none of it had ever happened. But the fact remains, you can not replace experience with any number of systems, styles techniques, etc...
   I train in kenpo because I love it, not because I need it to defend myself. My kenpo, while it is not perfect in the eyes of some, works for me. Ask yourself why you train. Is it to become a great fighter, martial artist, or to help enrich your life with something that is multifaceted as a tool for self defense, a lifestyle, hobby, and an irreplacable part of your life. Your kenpo is yours, mine is mine, and we should understand that regardless of number of techniques, forms, etc... it is an individual expression, based on scientific concepts and principles. 

Just my rants,
HAPPY NEW YEAR,

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist.


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## GouRonin (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *My kenpo, while it is not perfect in the eyes of some, works for me.*



The truth is setting us all free!
:iws:


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## Kalicombat (Jan 1, 2003)

The smallest dogs make the loudest noise.

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist.


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## cdhall (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Not exactly.
> It  depends on the practicioner/artist. *



Kalicombat,

You make good points, but you must not have noticed some of my lengthy posts earlier. 

We did cover that angle.  See the quote above.  I also addressed it when I spoke about experience and sparring.

Thank you.  If this has been entertaining and informative and helpful then I am very well pleased.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> * it all comes down to the individual when it comes to the moment of truth.*



Hey, we're agreeing on something. Ain't kenpo great some times (kenpoists too)? 

PS It's still better to know how to use the tools you intend to use. Even in a brawl not everybody uses the same weapons...


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## ikenpo (Jan 1, 2003)

_Originally posted by Kalicombat _

All really good points Gary, you touched on a lot that wasn't covered in previous posts. If I may I'll add my $.02. 




> when it comes to the moment of truth. John Kenpo Doe, with all 154 techniques, all the forms, and all the kenpo knowledge in the world is only as effective as his heart will allow him.



Agreed, my belief is that there are several ways that one becomes ready for that moment of truth and none of them involve just going to class to learn the latest principle or concept. Within the frame work of your training there should be an emotional component. One should understand the seriousness involved in the application of these ideas. That sometimes gets lost in-between the kids classes, special seminars, belt posturing, teaching beginners, preoccupation with formalities, etc...Life happens and because most don't have a warrior spirit anyway they never even realize that they are just sheep in wolves clothing. Or just sheep for that matter...




> Point sparring trophies aside, if John Kenpo Doe has no experience in an actual violent encounter, my money is on the untrained thug with a side of intent and desperation. Training, while it is necessary, is not the only ingredient that makes a fighter.  I put alot more people in the hospital long before I knew any kenpo at all, then since I have started training.



Once again I agree to a degree. That "violent" encounter experience can be in a controlled environment as well, like class and it doesn't always have to be "violent" as much as physically and mentally demanding to push you beyond your perceived limits and real contact must be a component. When is the last time you (anyone) let your Kenpo training make you really winded, make you feel like your lungs were going to burst from your chest, make you feel like your legs were going to explode, like your arms were made of lead, like "damn, I don't want to fight anymore, but I need to do 5 more rounds". When was the last time you were really pushed? We need this rise to another level and that is exactly what your are saying and I agree. 

It is so foreign to me when a person says that they have never been hit or hit someone before, but that is consistent the reality even with the guys I train. Everyone didn't grow up in such an environment. 

How many of those victims were Kenpo guys? 



> I train in kenpo because I love it, not because I need it to defend myself. My kenpo, while it is not perfect in the eyes of some, works for me.



I train to maintain my ability to defend myself and family. The mind will always lie and tell you that it is ready at a moments notice, but the reality is that the body is weak and people have to "train" even the seniors have to, even if only to maintain what they have. That's why I argue good consistent students have more value than most acknowledge or will admit toward an instructors growth and development. 



> Your kenpo is yours, mine is mine, and we should understand that regardless of number of techniques, forms, etc... it is an individual expression, based on scientific concepts and principles.



True, but there are frameworks that exist to make your journey easier and more effective. 

Your true bro in Kenpo, jb


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## brianhunter (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Not exactly.
> 
> If I have 15 legos and you have 115 who can build a "better" tower?  What is "better?" What kind of "tower?"
> ...



Im kinda partial to the Star Wars lego sets....nothing like building your own death star or droid......speaking of towers I think lego even did some lord of the rings MUUUAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA 
Only cause I love ya Doug!


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## GouRonin (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *The smallest dogs make the loudest noise.*



Bow Wow...


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## arnisador (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Star Wars lego sets*



These are really something. My son has a lot of them and people who visit look at them as though they were works of art! They're neat toys.


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## cdhall (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *These are really something. My son has a lot of them and people who visit look at them as though they were works of art! They're neat toys. *



Hmm.  I don't know if I know what you mean.
Do you have a link or an item number to plug in at lego.com or something?


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## KenpoGirl (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Hmm.  I don't know if I know what you mean.
> Do you have a link or an item number to plug in at lego.com or something? *



Ask and yea shall receive!  :asian:

Star Wars Lego Web Site


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## RCastillo (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Bow Wow...
> *



I hate the Taco Bell Dog. Keep him away from me!


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## brianhunter (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *Ask and yea shall receive!  :asian:
> 
> Star Wars Lego Web Site *



You know what Dot?...you are allllriighhhttt  I don't care what everyone says about ya!


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## RCastillo (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *You know what Dot?...you are allllriighhhttt  I don't care what everyone says about ya! *



Hey, quit trying to pick up MY girl there buddy!


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## GouRonin (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I hate the Taco Bell Dog. Keep him away from me! *



That is the funniest thing I have read all day.
:rofl:


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## cdhall (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I hate the Taco Bell Dog. Keep him away from me! *



So exactly what type of competition are you worried about there in Corpus anyway?


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## RCastillo (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *So exactly what type of competition are you worried about there in Corpus anyway?
> *



It affects my on going job to keep my weight down, and now Lord Ronin wants to vodoo me!


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## GouRonin (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *It affects my on going job to keep my weight down, and now Lord Ronin wants to vodoo me! *



You want a real nightmare? Picture me in a grass skirt with a big wooden mask on dancing half naked around a fire chanting voodoo curses...


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## RCastillo (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *You want a real nightmare? Picture me in a grass skirt with a big wooden mask on dancing half naked around a fire chanting voodoo curses...
> *



Are you kidding? That wouldn't even make the 10 o'clock news!


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## Seig (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I hate the Taco Bell Dog. Keep him away from me! *


I have an mp3 to e-mail you.......


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## Seig (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *You want a real nightmare? Picture me in a grass skirt with a big wooden mask on dancing half naked around a fire chanting voodoo curses...
> *


That didn't give me a nightmare, but it did give me indigestion.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *You want a real nightmare? Picture me in a grass skirt with a big wooden mask on dancing half naked around a fire chanting voodoo curses...
> *


:barf: 

Enough said...:lol:


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