# No Native Korean Internal Styles



## Steel Tiger (Apr 23, 2008)

I was recently doing a bit of reading on the history of Korean martial arts and  came across something interesting.  In the Muyedobotongji there are explicit statements as to internal styles being better fighting styles than external ones, however, there are have been no _native_ Korean internal styles.

Why do you think this is?

Given the proximity to China and the evident use of Chinese styles in korean you would think that at least one would have arisen.  Was the Neo-Confucian influence to blame?  Was it the obvious Korean liking for kicking methods?  

Any thoughts on this?


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## exile (Apr 24, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> I was recently doing a bit of reading on the history of Korean martial arts and  came across something interesting.  In the Muyedobotongji there are explicit statements as to internal styles being better fighting styles than external ones, however, there are have been no _native_ Korean internal styles.
> 
> Why do you think this is?
> 
> ...



Well, all I can think of is that the CMA styles closest to Korea may well have been hyper-external themselves. Adrogué has identified the unarmed combat style in the one chapter devoted to it in the _MDTJ_ as Long Fist ch'uan fa, as hard an external style as you could wish for (and notice that it favors high, full extension complex kicks in its technique setthis came up in another discussion). Since the _MDTJ_ is a translation and compilation of much older Chinese military manuals, it wouldn't be surprising for references to internal styles to show up in there, but the actual CMA the Koreans 'got' would probably have been that same kind of somewhat flashy external style, given what was being practiced in the northern, as vs. the southern part of China.


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## Ninjamom (Apr 29, 2008)

I have been trying (for several years) to find history on the Korean art of Gicheon (Gicheon Mun, lit. 'gateway to heavenly energy'), a very obscure, nearly cult-like internal martial art native to Korea.  I have traced its lineage back to 1950, and although it claims a much longer legacy, this is the earliest that I have been able to verify.  It appears to be related to northern mantis KF styles, and includes a of of qi gong.

Turtle Press offers a video about it, and short segments depicting the art may be seen in the DVD previews.  More information about the art may be found at this website (the main website, unfortunately, has been hijacked).


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 29, 2008)

I had a look at the GiCheon site, very interesting.  There are definitely northern CMA influences in the stances.  I also read through the "What is GiCheon?" section and it started to smell a bit, well, fishy.  There are claims to a 15000 year tradition, though the art did not become known to the Korean public until the 1970s.

It also lays claim to a "unique traditional Korean Philosophy...".  But it sounds a lot like Yin/Yang theory and Daoism to me.

I was more than a little disturbed by the secret of GiCheon, YeokGeun.  Apparently in each of the stances you are supposed to lock the joints as hard as you can with the surrounding muscles.  It doesn't sound like an internal method to me, its more like the methods used for developing Iron Palm and other similar techniques.

So I cannot say if it is a truly internal art or not.  I am leaning toward not, based on what I have seen on the website.  It has a lot of the hallmarks of the externals arts in China that have a qigong components, like Northern Praying Mantis, for instance.  But then again, it says it is so maybe it is.


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## D Dempsey (Apr 29, 2008)

I'm kind of surprise that there is even a mention of internal or external martial arts in the Muyedobotongji.  The whole concept of internal/external martial arts came about in the 1920's by Sun Lutang, according to whom there are only three internal martial arts are Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji.  So I wouldn't be concerned at all as it's ultimately irrelevant.


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## exile (Apr 29, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> I'm kind of surprise that there is even a mention of internal or external martial arts in the Muyedobotongji.  The whole concept of internal/external martial arts came about in the 1920's by Sun Lutang, according to whom there are only three internal martial arts are Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji.  So I wouldn't be concerned at all as it's ultimately irrelevant.



Do they actually use the terms internal/external in the MDTJ, ST?


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 29, 2008)

exile said:


> Do they actually use the terms internal/external in the MDTJ, ST?


 
Well I cannot be sure of the exact wording, I only encountered the reference second hand, and I haven't been able to get a hold of the actual text as yet.  But I expect it was a translation of neijia and wujia.

However, the first reference to the neijia, or internal arts, in China is from 1669 from an epitaph for Wang Zhengnan created by Huang Zongxi.  The first text on a neijia was written in 1676 by Huang's son, a student of Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia.  It was called _Neijia Quanfa_.  So the material was available at the time of the creation of the MDTJ.

Given the blended nature of the MDTJ I would not be surprised if elements of that book along with those from other Chinese and Japanese texts found their way into the super text.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 29, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> I'm kind of surprise that there is even a mention of internal or external martial arts in the Muyedobotongji. The whole concept of internal/external martial arts came about in the 1920's by Sun Lutang, according to whom there are only three internal martial arts are Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. So I wouldn't be concerned at all as it's ultimately irrelevant.


 
Actually there is a mention of the school of Neijia in Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan which was written in 1669, this is also the first time the name Zhang Sanfeng pops up as well...

EDIT
Which I see if I read further Steel Tiger already posted, sorry about that

Bit of redemption, maybe this will help http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html


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## exile (Apr 29, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Well I cannot be sure of the exact wording, I only encountered the reference second hand, and I haven't been able to get a hold of the actual text as yet.  But I expect it was a translation of neijia and wujia.
> 
> However, the first reference to the neijia, or internal arts, in China is from 1669 from an epitaph for Wang Zhengnan created by Huang Zongxi.  The first text on a neijia was written in 1676 by Huang's son, a student of Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia.  It was called _Neijia Quanfa_.  So the material was available at the time of the creation of the MDTJ.
> 
> *Given the blended nature of the MDTJ I would not be surprised if elements of that book along with those from other Chinese and Japanese terxts found their way into the super text.*



That would be absolutely typical, I think. 

I'll take a look through my copy of the MDTJ and see if I can find the specific reference.


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## D Dempsey (Apr 29, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> However, the first reference to the neijia, or internal arts, in China is from 1669 from an epitaph for Wang Zhengnan created by Huang Zongxi.  The first text on a neijia was written in 1676 by Huang's son, a student of Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia.  It was called _Neijia Quanfa_.  So the material was available at the time of the creation of the MDTJ.


I was actually unaware of this.  Thanks, now I know and knowing is half the battle.


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## Ninjamom (Apr 30, 2008)

exile, et al., 

Check out the chapter in the MDTJ on fist methods.  In the introductory verbage, before the step-by-step descriptions of the forms, there are two and a half pages on martial arts history, including a description of the differences between internal and external styles/methods.  I am referring to the Sang Kim translation (Turtle Press), so it is possible that the original says something slightly different, however, I think it fairly clearly does reference internal/external and their differences.


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## exile (Apr 30, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> exile, et al.,
> 
> Check out the chapter in the MDTJ on fist methods.  In the introductory verbage, before the step-by-step descriptions of the forms, there are two and a half pages on martial arts history, including a description of the differences between internal and external styles/methods.  I am referring to the Sang Kim translation (Turtle Press), so it is possible that the original says something slightly different, however, I think it fairly clearly does reference internal/external and their differences.



Thanks, Mjm. Lauren also mentioned to me what I think is the same passage.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually there is a mention of the school of Neijia in Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan which was written in 1669, this is also the first time the name Zhang Sanfeng pops up as well...


 
Need to make a correction here

The Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan is the first time Zhang Sanfeng appears associated with martial arts (and it was not taiji). I beleive the name appears prior to that but as a Taoist Immortal.


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## julius4 (Jan 24, 2009)

Hello! I'm new Here and this looks like a great place! I do have question what the styles of Korean martial arts that looks similiar to chinese Tai chi Quan? 

Also, has anyone ever heard of Hyunmudo?? Is this an internal forum of Korean martial arts?


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## julius4 (Jan 31, 2009)

Does anyone know if the Korean martial arts GiCheon is the same as Kichun style in Korea??? Thanks!


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## Errant108 (Feb 7, 2009)

julius4 said:


> Does anyone know if the Korean martial arts GiCheon is the same as Kichun style in Korea??? Thanks!


 

It's the same, just different systems of romanization.


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## Errant108 (Feb 7, 2009)

Steel Tiger said:


> I was recently doing a bit of reading on the history of Korean martial arts and came across something interesting. In the Muyedobotongji there are explicit statements as to internal styles being better fighting styles than external ones, however, there are have been no _native_ Korean internal styles.
> 
> Why do you think this is?
> 
> ...


 
While we teach that the idea of "external vs. internal" is a false dichotomy, we have sets that some consider "internal" in Cheolryun Gwonbeop.


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## CDKJudoka (Feb 9, 2009)

Ruh roh. Didn't realise you still posted over here Aus.


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## julius4 (Feb 22, 2009)

Also, has anyone ever heard of Hyunmudo?? Is this an internal forum of Korean martial arts?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 22, 2009)

I found this on Google Books. The copyrights on these have long since passed into the public domain, so I quote a bit more here than I ordinarily would. Hope it helps:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tx...pt=ALLTYPES&ei=CXmhSbfXMo6mNZ6_2IoC#PPA293,M1



> Corea, The Hermit Nation
> BY
> WILLIAM ELLIOT GRIFFIS
> 1885
> ...



Here's a slightly more amusing account of 'martial arts' as practiced in Korea in olden times.  Native art? Probably, but taught in many countries, I think...

Corea or Cho-Sen: The Land of the Morning Calm



> COREA
> OR CHO-SEN
> THE LAND OF THE MORNING CALM
> BY
> ...


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## Errant108 (Mar 31, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Ruh roh. Didn't realise you still posted over here Aus.



I am everywhere.


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