# physical fitness & self defense.



## jarrod (Feb 8, 2009)

the other day someone asked me, "what do you think is more important for self-defense; technique or physical fitness?" after thinking over, i have to say physical fitness.

now here me out: when someone says 'self-defense' they are normally talking about a situation where one or more attackers comes at you with intent to do serious harm. but if you really think about it, self-defense is really just protecting yourself from whatever dangers you might encounter. buckling your seatbelt is self-defense for instance. 

in the united states, 27% of all deaths are caused by heart disease, 23% are caused by cancer, 6% by stroke, & 3% by diabetes. overall physical fitness (meaning diet & exercise) is one of the most important factors in preventing these problems. that means physical fitness, or the lack thereof, is a determining factor in 59% of deaths in the US. 

comparatively, out of a population of over 300million, just under 17,000 people were murdered. about 1.4million were victims of violent crime. 

in addition, fitness is certainly going to help you withstand a violent attack. now technique & fitness are not opposed, ideally a good martial arts class should be able to develop both. but if you train for 'self-defense', take a little time to meditate on what that means to you.

sources: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
http://longevity.about.com/od/longevity101/tp/mortalityall.htm

all the best,

jf


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## seasoned (Feb 8, 2009)

jarrod said:


> the other day someone asked me, "what do you think is more important for self-defense; technique or physical fitness?" after thinking over, i have to say physical fitness.
> 
> now here me out: when someone says 'self-defense' they are normally talking about a situation where one or more attackers comes at you with intent to do serious harm. but if you really think about it, self-defense is really just protecting yourself from whatever dangers you might encounter. buckling your seatbelt is self-defense for instance.
> 
> ...


Excellent point Jarrod, you can have the best looking car in the parking lot, but if the tank is empty, your not going anywhere. Physical fitness, and a little technique, will win over, a lot of technique, and no stamina. I have heard it said that 3 minutes of rolling and grappling with someone is like a 5 mile jog.


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## jarrod (Feb 8, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Excellent point Jarrod, you can have the best looking car in the parking lot, but if the tank is empty, your not going anywhere. Physical fitness, and a little technique, will win over, a lot of technique, and no stamina. I have heard it said that 3 minutes of rolling and grappling with someone is like a 5 mile jog.


 
i like the car analogy, i'm going to have to use that.  grappling certainly is strenuous at first, as your technique improves it gets easier though.  i often tell folks that i'm a lazy grappler.  not that i don't work hard, but i try not to do anything wth speed or strength that i can do with timing, leverage, & gravity.

jf


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## seasoned (Feb 8, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i like the car analogy, i'm going to have to use that. grappling certainly is strenuous at first, as your technique improves it gets easier though. i often tell folks that i'm a lazy grappler. not that i don't work hard, but i try not to do anything wth speed or strength that i can do with timing, leverage, & gravity.
> 
> jf


 
Another good point, there are times when we can work against ourselves. So I can definitely see where technique and physical fitness go hand and hand. Kind of like walking through a foot of snow, with some good technique and a set of snow shoes,J that, could change the out come.


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## jarrod (Feb 8, 2009)

i think technique vs strength issue another example of false dichotomy in the martial arts.  judo & jujitsu are supposed to be about efficient movement.  strength is only a hinderance if you rely on it at the expense of technique. lets say a few pounds of pressure applied to a lever is all it takes to move an object.  but the more pounds of pressure you are capable of exerting the more it will move.  it doesn't change the fact that you are still using a lever.

jf


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## Guardian (Feb 8, 2009)

They are both important in my view.  If I had to put one above the other if by nothing but a hair, it would be fitness over technique.  If I run out of steam in a fight, then it's not much of a fight is it?


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 8, 2009)

Jarrod,

Oh yes, I believe in physical fitness. I see so many lard butts out there that would drop dead if they ran 50 yards!

Both techniuqe and physical fitness are critical. But just as you don't need to be a Van Dame or Chuck Noris, you also don't need to be a marathon runner! Fights don't last that long on the street.

Just be in decent shape, practice weekely good technique, and keep your head up for trouble.

Deaf


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## searcher (Feb 8, 2009)

I tend to be very partial to the physical fitness side of things, being a personal trainer and all.   I find that you have to be equally balanced.    I don't care how much you knowif you are physically incapable of performing and the same goes with the opposite.   If you are super fit, but don't have any knowledge to use.


But your physical fitness needs to be specific to your martial arts training.   I train some groupd aerobics instructors in boxing and they get exhausted very quickly, even though they are in great shape.   Make your fitness training with the techniques you use in a SD situation.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 9, 2009)

searcher said:


> I tend to be very partial to the physical fitness side of things, being a personal trainer and all. I find that you have to be equally balanced. I don't care how much you knowif you are physically incapable of performing and the same goes with the opposite. If you are super fit, but don't have any knowledge to use.
> 
> 
> But your physical fitness needs to be specific to your martial arts training. I train some groupd aerobics instructors in boxing and they get exhausted very quickly, even though they are in great shape. Make your fitness training with the techniques you use in a SD situation.


 As a personal trainer do you have a program set up for martial artists?  I would be interested in perhaps seeing what one of your programs looks like, is it possible to PM me with any info?  Thanks


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## jarrod (Feb 9, 2009)

don't PM it, share it with everyone if you're passing out goodies!

jf


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## Hand Sword (Feb 9, 2009)

I would agree with fitness. As long as you got gas in the tank as mentioned you can keep banging, sloppy or not. As they get winded your stuff will land and you'll win. Plus, a friend of mine recently had to go against 2. Luckily one stood there frozen while he handled the other one. As he was having dry heaves after and totally gassed he admitted to me that if the other guy came in, he would've lost as he had nothing left. He vows to become fit and has worked tirelessly at it since then.


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## searcher (Feb 9, 2009)

mozzandherb said:


> As a personal trainer do you have a program set up for martial artists? I would be interested in perhaps seeing what one of your programs looks like, is it possible to PM me with any info? Thanks


 

Yes, I have several programs set up for my fighters.   I won't give you my programs, but I will tell you howto set them up for you.   The programs have to vary a little, depending on what you train(grapplers have different needs then strikers).

Look at the movements you perform within your style.  Ex.: Strikers have twisting motions, movement up and down, arm pumping, etc.   So you need to eb performing single arm rows, pushups, squats, wood chopper, lunges, kettlebell swings, box jumps, ......     These motions mimmick the motions strikers go through.


Hope this gives you some insight in how to set up your own program.

If you want me to put you though a workout, I would be more than happy to do so.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 9, 2009)

searcher said:


> Yes, I have several programs set up for my fighters.   I won't give you my programs, but I will tell you howto set them up for you.   The programs have to vary a little, depending on what you train(grapplers have different needs then strikers).
> 
> Look at the movements you perform within your style.  Ex.: Strikers have twisting motions, movement up and down, arm pumping, etc.   So you need to eb performing single arm rows, pushups, squats, wood chopper, lunges, kettlebell swings, box jumps, ......     These motions mimmick the motions strikers go through.
> 
> ...


Yes I would love for you to put my through a workout, how would that work exactly?


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## searcher (Feb 9, 2009)

The next time you are in the US, come to KS and I will hook you up.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 9, 2009)

Fitness is crutial, considering how energy-sapping the adrenilin is in a confrontation. Your mind working overtime, as well as your heart pushing the blood through the veins like it's never known before. Trying to keep focused on getting out of there is hard work on the system. So, yes, even someone as energy conserving as Steven Seagal could do with a few sprint dashes and drop-squats


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## Ahriman (Feb 9, 2009)

About 2 months ago I started going to a gym again. By now I can lift my 50 kg training partners by their throats using one hand *quickly*, and I'm able to easily throw my 120-130 kg training partners with *ease* even with partially wrong technique_ (in intensive sparring things don't often happen as planned)_. I was able to do the same before as well but it wasn't easy nor quick. I was able to defeat one of the bigger and stronger guys _(I'm only 185cm and 90 kg, while quite some of my partners are over 200cm/110 kg - and they can use their size quite well) _before, now I can defeat 2 and on one occasion so far I took down 5.
...
So even as some will never admit it, fitness and strength is *just as crucial* as speed, experience, flexibility and technical knowledge. If you rely on only one or two of these, you'll lose or die sooner or later.
...
Oh, one more thing. One of my partners is strong enough to dislocate my shoulder simply by forcefully grabbing it. By now my shoulder muscles are strong enough to withstand it for a fraction of a second, which means that I have a chance to avoid one more dislocation.


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 10, 2009)

I find the title to be very misleading. Obviously, violent crime is not the leading cause of death. Not to mention, genetics play a much bigger part in heart disease etc, over anything else.



But technique is by FARRRR more important.


If you run 20 mins at a good  8mph 3 days a week, you will be in suitable condition to defend yourself.


Try pouring in 20 mins of your time into marital art technique 3 days a week, you will never learn anything.


If you are in really poor physical condition, you are just lazy or have neglected a problem for far too long. Cardiovascular exercise takes no time whatsoever. Weight lifting on the other hand is a different story. And you could substitute weight lifting for some simple calisthenics. Technique on the other hand takes many years to craft into a working structure where you would have a method of execution regardless of what happens in a fight.

Not to mention, not all the arts require all this energy into throwing like judo and jujitsu. For example, silat takes full control of locking the legs in order to take the opponent down. And besides, if you perform a take down in one of these real physical arts, you either fail or succeed. You either wind up on top or get laid out by a punch because your take down was too slow. It is not like wrestling in highschool where a kid shoots in for a single leg takedown and then gets bombarded by his opponents pressing his hips into him and it's a tiresome fight between completeing the takedown and him going for the reversal. If this was UFC, then physical condition is very important. But street fighting has no rules. And if it means getting in grappling range and then giving a huge tug on your attacker's testacles, then so be it. 

Technique > Fitness

Unless you are of really poor physical condition.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 10, 2009)

Personally I would rather be really strong and have no MA training, than to be really small and have some MA training.  Ultimately my goal is to have both.  I was always a really small kid and I have been training since the age of 6, but because I was so small I still had some insecurities about having to potentially defend myself. 
As a teenager I was still thin as a rail, but I was taller, I was strong, but by the sheer mass of my body I looked weak, because I was so thin, so there again I had some insecurities about potentially having to defend myself.
Now I weight train and I am bigger (about 30 lbs heavier now than I was 5 years ago) so I have more mass, more power and more confidence.  Because of this I am mentally stronger and physically stronger to defend myself if I have to.
So not only does fitness play a role for strength, but it plays a role in the way others see you ( I think people will be less inclined to attack me at the size I am now, compared to before) and it plays a role in your own level of confidence.
Both are important especially for martial arts, but for pure SD I would say 
physical fitness/strength > technique


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## Aikicomp (Feb 11, 2009)

IMO, In Ju-Jitsu, technique is more important than physical fitness (strength and stamina) to a certain degree. 

In street self-defense (that's all I teach) you are not going to spend a lot of time "sparring or wrestling" with the attacker(s) you are going to do whatever it takes to get yourself out of the situation as safely and quickly as you can. That's why our Ju-Jitsu concentrates on attacking the most vulnerable and weakest points on the body with devastating and destructive techniques as well as having extraordinary ability in balance, targeting, timing, focus, power, awareness ect. not to mention the application of ki which can make up for a lot of strength and breath control which can make up for a lot stamina.

On the other hand, if you are training for mma, ufc, kickboxing, ect. you better have a lot of both or you will not be doing it long.

When I took my Sandan test in the late 90's my teacher new I smoked and we had about 8-10 students giving me my last test (Advanced releases). He had all the people attack me with any attack they chose (single and multiple attackers) each person attacked 3 to 4 times each, so I had no other choice except to rely on technique rather than physical fitness.

Bottom line is in my opinion...It's good to have both, but, if you can not have both pick technique rather than physical fitness, fitness will come with practicing of technique while technique will never come with practicing physical fitness.

Michael


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## searcher (Feb 11, 2009)

mozzandherb said:


> Personally I would rather be really strong and have no MA training, than to be really small and have some MA training.
> 
> but for pure SD I would say
> physical fitness/strength > technique


 

Tell that to the Gracie family.   Helio was a very small guy and he did some pretty wild stuff to guys quite a bit bigger then himself.


Just playing devil's advocate.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 11, 2009)

searcher said:


> Tell that to the Gracie family.   Helio was a very small guy and he did some pretty wild stuff to guys quite a bit bigger then himself.
> 
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate.


Yes, but that was in a controlled environment...much different


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## Nolerama (Feb 11, 2009)

searcher said:


> Tell that to the Gracie family.   Helio was a very small guy and he did some pretty wild stuff to guys quite a bit bigger then himself.
> 
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate.



I don't think size is as much a factor as sheer athleticism. Couple that with technique and you have an effective way to defend yourself.

Besides, size by no means implies physical fitness.


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## searcher (Feb 11, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> I don't think size is as much a factor as sheer athleticism. Couple that with technique and you have an effective way to defend yourself.
> 
> Besides, size by no means implies physical fitness.


 


True and true.


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## searcher (Feb 11, 2009)

mozzandherb said:


> Yes, but that was in a controlled environment...much different


 

The streets in Brazil are controlled?   I did not realize that.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 12, 2009)

searcher said:


> The streets in Brazil are controlled? I did not realize that.


haha...didn't know he was a street fighter

Still if I had to choose I would choose Helio over let's say Tyson anyday


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## thetruth (Feb 12, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> In street self-defense (that's all I teach) you are not going to spend a lot of time "sparring or wrestling" with the attacker(s) you are going to do whatever it takes to get yourself out of the situation as safely and quickly as you can.


Well I don't think you can necessarily assume that you won't be wrestling with someone.  If you get tackled well from the side and are unaware you certainly will be wrestling.  Sparring is a poor word to use however it is very necessary to learn to strike effectively and if some exchanging of blows is required then it definitely requires some fitness even with technique



Aikicomp said:


> That's why our Ju-Jitsu concentrates on attacking the most vulnerable and weakest points on the body with devastating and destructive techniques as well as having extraordinary ability in balance, targeting, timing, focus, power, awareness ect. not to mention the application of ki which can make up for a lot of strength and breath control which can make up for a lot stamina.


When things such as adrenal dumping come in to play it is not always possible to have perfect balance, timing and technique etc so worst case scenario is there is some scuffling which can take its toll physically.  As for ki and breathing, well that's nice in theory but in a surprise attack or even one that is relatively sudden generating ki is not an option and controlling your breathing to a point of truly increasing your strength (I'm assuming you are referring to ki building type breathing) while performing a physical task is not easy under pressure and regardless of how often you have used ki on students or others in the dojo, using in the street against armed attackers is damn risky.


Aikicomp said:


> When I took my Sandan test in the late 90's my teacher new I smoked and we had about 8-10 students giving me my last test (Advanced releases). He had all the people attack me with any attack they chose (single and multiple attackers) each person attacked 3 to 4 times each, so I had no other choice except to rely on technique rather than physical fitness.


  I'm picturing you using Aikido type techniques in this scenario such as locks etc and moving. This sort of thing is great in the dojo but if this is all you are doing and your fellow students are attacking then given the nature of the tecniques it is very hard to know how it would relate to the street as these students know how to flow with your techniques and comply in this way hense making them seem easier to perform.  Striking/self defense scenarios  with some reasonable sort of contact both receiving and giving are necessary to be able to deal with such scenarios and these do require physical fitness 



Aikicomp said:


> Bottom line is in my opinion...It's good to have both, but, if you can not have both pick technique rather than physical fitness, fitness will come with practicing of technique while technique will never come with practicing physical fitness.



Practicing technique will NOT develop physical fitness of any real use.  Practicing technique will refine the technique.  In BJJ learning and practicing the technique won't develop fitness but when you grapple, that is when you develop fitness.  With strikes, learning the movements of the strike will not develop fitness, but once you start hitting pads and sparring/doing full on self defense scenarios your fitness will develop. 



In my opinion it is irresponsible for martial artists to be out of shape.  Sure a little bit of weight because of laziness is ok but relying solely on technique and think that you will be fine is silly.   Also if you a a fat lazy smoker then the option of running is totally out of the question which takes away one option before an attack has ever occured.

Cheers
Sam :asian:


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## redantstyle (Feb 12, 2009)

this horse is fossilized, but...

If you can execute a 'technique', you dont need much strength at all.  personally, i dont consider it 'gung fu' unless it is relatively effortless.  most of what i have done in my life has not been 'gung fu'.  but from time to time....

if someone is larger, then they can execute a more powerful technique.  it is a matter of mass, primarily.  

strength, as in brute force, can be a major asset, depending on your opponent.  the root flaw in brute force is that it is entirely relative.  the smaller your opponent, the better it works.  and vice versa. 

i've had sparring partners pushing a hundred pounds more than me.  so i can appreciate the distinction.  i could lift all the weights i wanted to, but the return is simply not worth it. 

barring all of the above, what is core to self defense is anaerobic capability.  i find the '3 second rule' to be one simple evidence of this.

regards.


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## Archangel M (Feb 12, 2009)

I think that some people are under the TV/Movie impression that when they get attacked they are just going to throw that 1-4 seconds of "technique"...barely break a sweat...and then dust off their sleeves as they stroll away. When In many cases you could be in a "rolling around" streetfight that will be lost by the first person who runs out of gas.

by and large, western martial arts "technique" training is less painful, strenuous, and more "fun" than fitness training.


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## Phoenix44 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fitness.  So you can run away.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 14, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> Fitness. So you can run away.


 That is actually a very good point


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## jarrod (Feb 14, 2009)

it is indeed.

also, the better shape you are in, the more stamina you will have to work on your technique!

jf


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## emiliozapata (Feb 15, 2009)

I get mocked alot over in a different forum for advocating extreme physical conditioning. Besides all the excellent points mentioned, this type of training confronts your own mental weakness and lets you learn to deal with pain and adversity and hopefully to keep  pushing forward.


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## Senjojutsu (Feb 15, 2009)

Hello Jarrod & others, 

I have seen this fitness vs. technique topic discussed several times before during past years &#8211; as devil&#8217;s advocate I counter with - &#8220;never confuse fitness with fighting ability&#8221;. 

Seriously, I agree with several posts that fitness is a very important component in training &#8211; but fitness training for what (specific) end goals? 

I will give you a counter analogy:
*If as an example, a group of ten (competitive Triathlon) athletes walked into an outlaw biker bar and squared off against ten, grizzled bikers &#8211; which of these groups would you wager next month&#8217;s rent money on?*

By any measurable scale or testing - those ten tri-athletes are the &#8220;fitter individuals&#8221;.

But the outlaw bikers are &#8220;hardened individuals&#8221; who have proven their basic brawling techniques in many a bar, out on the streets and within county lock-ups.

Now if the brawl would go on for over a minute &#8211; yes the tri-athletes, now sans a few teeth, would have the stamina edge. But then again by that elapsed time &#8211; weapons and gunplay would most likely be involved in this real-life example.

&#8230;and I think medical science has clearly shown that a sucking chest wound decreases one&#8217;s aerobic capacity.
:uhyeah:
Now if you could get a bunch of outlaw bikers, or English football yobs, into a training regimen for a competitive Triathlon &#8211; those would be people I would NOT want to meet in any dark alley.


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2009)

emiliozapata said:


> *I get mocked alot over in a different forum for advocating extreme physical conditioning.* Besides all the excellent points mentioned, this type of training confronts your own mental weakness and lets you learn to deal with pain and adversity and hopefully to keep  pushing forward.



No Emilio, you get mocked because a lot of us think "Kug Maky Ung Ryu Ninjutsu is a silly name. And because you don't know where I live (I hope) so there's nothing you can do about it,_ even if you are totally ripped_. _So There!_

Er... other than that, I pretty much agree.


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## Raynac (Feb 15, 2009)

geezer said:


> No Emilio, you get mocked because a lot of us think "Kug Maky Ung Ryu Ninjutsu is a silly name. And because you don't know where I live (I hope) so there's nothing you can do about it,_ even if you are totally ripped_. _So There!_
> 
> Er... other than that, I pretty much agree.


 

Hmmm thats true. I dont think ive seen you mocked for the extreme phyical conditing aspect of it. maybe your thinking of the techique part of it. honestly if i had the time (university students dont) and equipment, i would definaly do alot of physical training, just because i like the thought of my body being the most effiecent and powerful it can be. thats why i like ninjutsu, it brings effiecently to a whole new level.

unfortunaly im stuck with jogging, push-ups and those jackknifes on wii-fit as my physical training tools (wii fit or not those jackknifes work wonders on the abs)


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## searcher (Feb 15, 2009)

Raynac said:


> unfortunaly im stuck with jogging, push-ups and those jackknifes on wii-fit as my physical training tools (wii fit or not those jackknifes work wonders on the abs)


 

Why are you stuck with those items as your means of getting fit?   There are a bunch of things you can do for fitness, but lets save that for another thread.


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## Raynac (Feb 15, 2009)

well those are my chosen methods, considering my time and financial restraints, but yes i could easily do more. i don't need to at the moment. im in fairly good shape and will be even more so after a summer working on the farm.


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2009)

Raynac said:


> well those are my chosen methods, considering my time and financial restraints, but yes i could easily do more. i don't need to at the moment. im in fairly good shape and will be even more so after a summer working on the farm.



Heck yeah. Farm work is a killer. Yard-work alone kills me. But if you want a cheap piece of exercise equipment, get an old tire, clean out the black-widows and other vermin and start chuckin' it around. I think I've seen 'em do  this in an old dog Bros. tape, and besides, look what it's done for _Emilio_... who, if reading this... HEY EMILIO! GET THIS... should post his conditioning routines. I think (if he were to keep his silly terminology to himself) that he might get a pretty positive response. As far as being silly goes, I'm quite experienced,  so you should all pay attention to what I say.


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## Raynac (Feb 15, 2009)

geezer said:


> Heck yeah. Farm work is a killer. Yard-work alone kills me. But if you want a cheap piece of exercise equipment, get an old tire, clean out the black-widows and other vermin and start chuckin' it around. I think I've seen 'em do this in an old dog Bros. tape, and besides, look what it's done for _Emilio_... who, if reading this... HEY EMILIO! GET THIS... should post his conditioning routines. I think (if he were to keep his silly terminology to himself) that he might get a pretty positive response. As far as being silly goes, I'm quite experienced, so you should all pay attention to what I say.


 
haha that tire thing might actually be a really good full body work out for me. of course im not sure the proffesors and such would be very impressed with me throwing a tire out of my room on the third story of residence runnning down three flight of stairs, retriving it. running back up three flights of stairs and repeating the process... 

needless to say it would build endurance, leg and arm muscles, and a bad reputation!


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 15, 2009)

Fitness and SD... interesting thread.

Just for context, I train Kenpo 5.0, which has us fighting at different ranges from contact to control manipulation. Kick-boxing-type tactics to bridge the gap, Kenpo sequences for in-fighting, various takedowns, and a large amount of groundwork out of BJJ, albeit with the mindset of getting back on our feet ASAP.

With that out of the way, imho, I think some measure of physical fitness is important. One may not be as conditioned as a professional cage fighter, or a 100-man-Kumite Kyokushin stylist, but given that combat is by nature, a relentless and brutal activity, it pays to be prepared for pretty extreme levels of exertion. Just my 2 cents. An opinion, nothing more.

True, the ideal scenario is to get it over and done with in 3-4 seconds, but if that doesn't happen, then what? Say, I've executed a Kenpo SD sequence, and he's still standing, then what? Now he's seen what I can do, and things are going to get more difficult. Now, the fight's on, and to survive, I may have to last more than a minute, or maybe 2... or maybe more than that. Who knows?

Personally, I'd prefer not to take that chance. I want every edge I can get, and if it means being able to outlast the aggressor, so I can take him out of the game, and then have enough gas in the tank to practice my Nike-jitsu, then so be it.

Kind regards,
TCG


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## Archangel M (Feb 15, 2009)

While I agree with your premise, keep in mind that if your 2-3 seconds of technique doesn't work, he's probably not going to just "be standing there". Odds are he will be pounding away on you or the two of you will be rolling around on the floor.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 15, 2009)

Didn't mean standing per se, just 'functional' and pissed off as heck...

Anyway, I agree. What you posit may well eventuate. And if it does go to the ground, then the fitness factor could be even more significant, as grappling-work can get quite strenuous... even where skill and textbook technique are employed.

Which is why we train for it in drills and non-compliant sparring.

TCG


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## Aikicomp (Feb 16, 2009)

thetruth said:


> Well I don't think you can necessarily assume that you won't be wrestling with someone. If you get tackled well from the side and are unaware you certainly will be wrestling. Sparring is a poor word to use however it is very necessary to learn to strike effectively and if some exchanging of blows is required then it definitely requires some fitness even with technique
> 
> I did not say you would not be wrestling, I said you should not spend a lot of time doing it.
> 
> ...


 
You know your repsonse reads like a bash right? I certainly hope it was not because to bash another person or their style has no honor and is a cowardly act, going against what a true Martial Artist is in every sense of the word. 

I'm new here and don't know the people on here yet and it's hard to tell from the typed word what the intent was from a post so, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. 

If I may ask, would you mind telling me your amount of experience and rank, from your post it seems like you study BJJ, is this correct?. 

Michael


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## jarrod (Feb 16, 2009)

well the technique vs fitness discussion is interesting & all but the point i was trying to make is keep yourself healthy, even if strength & conditioning isn't a major component of your MA training. often i'll see a MAist who is borderline morbidly obese & wonder what the point of training to defend yourself is when your lifestyle has you headed towards early mortality anyway. the odds of being seriously hurt in a violent attack are astronomically small compared to the probability of succumbing to an unhealthy lifestyle. 

like this guy, for instance: 



 
jf


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## searcher (Feb 16, 2009)

jarrod-where on earth did you find that video?   I don't want to come right out and bash the guy in it, but how does a MAist let themself get like that?    Come on guys, it is not that hard to push away from the table and hit the gym.


"Big, fat, andstupid is no way to go through life son."    One of the greatest lines in history, I just wish I could remember where it came from.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 16, 2009)

This is just my opinion;
 Train your endurance like a marathon runner.

Train your muscles like a bodybuilder.

Increase your flexibility like an Olympic gymnast Yoga guru.

Eat only what the body needs.

Train your Spirit and mind like an ascetic in the mountains.

Practice your martial art techniques as if you are going to die and every technique requires precision.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 16, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> This is just my opinion;
> Train your endurance like a marathon runner.



I'll get right on it.



> Train your muscles like a bodybuilder.



Check.  I want to not be able to scratch the back of my neck.



> Increase your flexibility like an Olympic gymnast Yoga guru.



Um, how does that work with the bodybuilder part?  I haven't seen a lot of bodybuilding gymnasts.  Well, Mary Lou Retton, but uh, ok.



> Eat only what the body needs.



My body needs a jelly donut.



> Train your Spirit and mind like an ascetic in the mountains.



Not those nasty ascetics on the plains or the evil ascetics in the valleys.  The mountain ones are bestest.



> Practice your martial art techniques as if you are going to die and every technique requires precision.



Every technique does require precision, and we are all going to die.

Especially if my body keeps needing them jelly donuts.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 16, 2009)

Actually stretching is a big part of bodybuilting nowadays.


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## Senjojutsu (Feb 16, 2009)

searcher said:


> "Big, fat, andstupid is no way to go through life son." One of the greatest lines in history, I just wish I could remember where it came from.


Jon,

Way too easy to answer, Animal House (1978), the actual catch phase is below, that whole movie had great catch phrases:

*Dean Wormer to Flounder: Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.*
in that same scene...
Dean Wormer: Daniel Simpson Day... HAS no grade point average. All courses incomplete. Mr. Blu - MR. BLUTARSKY... ZERO POINT ZERO. 

Later Scene:
Flounder: I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer. 
Boon: Face it, Kent. You threw up *on* Dean Wormer. 

_I think Joe Biden studied history at Delta House:_
D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one. 
Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! 
Otter: Germans? 
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling. 
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough... [thinks hard] 
Bluto: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!


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## searcher (Feb 16, 2009)

Thank you Senjojutsu!!!


That is the time when they are all getting suspended.


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## jarrod (Feb 16, 2009)

searcher said:


> jarrod-where on earth did you find that video? I don't want to come right out and bash the guy in it, but how does a MAist let themself get like that? Come on guys, it is not that hard to push away from the table and hit the gym.
> 
> 
> "Big, fat, andstupid is no way to go through life son." One of the greatest lines in history, I just wish I could remember where it came from.


 
it was posted on another thread.  this is what i'm talking about; you don't have to be as jadecloudalchemist describes (though it is a lofty ideal) martial artists just shouldn't waddle.  

jf


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## thetruth (Feb 17, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> You know your repsonse reads like a bash right? I certainly hope it was not because to bash another person or their style has no honor and is a cowardly act, going against what a true Martial Artist is in every sense of the word.
> 
> I'm new here and don't know the people on here yet and it's hard to tell from the typed word what the intent was from a post so, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...



Wasn't intended as a bash. As for cowardly well thats a matter of opinion as I believe that if someone states their opinion and signs their name then they aren't being cowardly. If I believe something I'll say it and sign my name and give my phone number and address if necessary.  As for my experience. I have a 2nd dan in Kempo, I have done American Kenpo for a couple of years, I did Judo for 6 years and have instructor certification in Jim Wagners RBPP.  I have recently started BJJ and also do some reality based self defense that incorporates Floro Fighting Systems among other techniques.  I did Kempo for 7 years and left because my instructor was a knob.  I did triathlons for a few years and as I said have recently gotten back into the arts (I did Jim Wagners course last year).   

A for fitness I realise it's choice but I think it's just plain lazy for 99% of regular people to be overweight let alone those who are teaching a method of not only self protection but also exercise.  People are just making excuses for their crappy habits.  Preach choice but don't even bother preaching anything to do with health until you can get your own in check.  

I am sure that being an overweight smoker certainly effects ones ability to perform perfect technique as well as ones ability to generate ki.  I'm sure the body has to be in a certain state for ki to circulate properly.  I'm sure it isn't just the fitness side being fat effects.   

Thats my rant and if you happen to be fat and take it personally well that's up to you.  

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## thetruth (Feb 17, 2009)

That video was hilarious.  If a guy with that kind of gravity centre can't keep his balance properly then he's in real strife

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 25, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> You know your repsonse reads like a bash right? I certainly hope it was not because to bash another person or their style has no honor and is a cowardly act, going against what a true Martial Artist is in every sense of the word.
> 
> I'm new here and don't know the people on here yet and it's hard to tell from the typed word what the intent was from a post so, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to bash you but I'm just curious if there is anything I am lead amiss on. Breathing to maintain ki I imagine is simliar to yoga breathing, diaphragmic breathing, whatever you want call it. If that is the breathing you are referring to, it is literally impossible to maintain deep, slow breathes when you raise your work output intensity.  That is like try sprinting and doing anything but huffing and puffing erratically.The only thing I could think in reference to ki would just be being relaxed and striking by keeping the whole body relaxed (except on the instances you need to tense, like right before the punch, etc) and exhaling as you do so. 

If you are referring to the latter, then the critisicm you recieved before about "you could never do this in a surprise situation" then that is a moot point. The only time your body would not be able to do this is if you went into shock and were taking quick, acute bursts of breath. (similiar to what happens what a person engages in a panic attack) How to find out for sure how you would act is watch your behavior.

Before I started martial arts, when I got suddenly frightened by something, I would tighten up and get in "flight" mode. After some months of martial arts training I evovled it into putting up my guard, "fight mode" but I would still be somewhat tense. Now when I get scared, I only instantly tighten up for a about second or less while I put up my guard, then I quickly loosen up and access the situation. How I rationalize this is I am not afraid. I realize, there is hardly any action that I could incur that I would not be able to react to. (with the exception of getting hit from behind) But if a fist comes, my guard is instantaneous. Not to mention, I try to keep in my mind that the best primal reaction to train yourself to do is to back up. In my case, JKD has a move where you lean back on your back foot and you rest your lead foot on their leg therefor putting you just out of range of a punch so you can access the situation, your opponent, and your environment. I only bring this last paragraph up to mention that it is very possible to train/adapt your body to quickly disengage in tightening up which would therefor reengage your traditional breathing owing to the idea your breathing only becomes inefficient when you tighten up, which ultimately reduces the effecitiveness of a an opponent's surprise attack (unless it is from behind where under no conditions could you foresee it)


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## Aikicomp (Feb 26, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I'm not trying to bash you but I'm just curious if there is anything I am lead amiss on. Breathing to maintain ki I imagine is simliar to yoga breathing, diaphragmic breathing, whatever you want call it.
> Yes and no, The Ki I was refering to is when you take the energy from around you and use it to your advantage by channeling it through your body being able to turn it off and on at will. Concentrating on breathing is how you first aquire the stillness to tap into it and eventually learn how to access it all the time.
> 
> If that is the breathing you are referring to, it is literally impossible to maintain deep, slow breathes when you raise your work output intensity.
> ...


 
I hope this explains it a little bit better, as it is something that has to be experienced or felt or applied to truly understand it. To try to explain it fully, is well, difficult.

Michael


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## thetruth (Feb 26, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> But if a fist comes, my guard is instantaneous. Not to mention, I try to keep in my mind that the best primal reaction to train yourself to do is to back up. In my case, JKD has a move where you lean back on your back foot and you rest your lead foot on their leg therefor putting you just out of range of a punch so you can access the situation, your opponent, and your environment. I only bring this last paragraph up to mention that it is very possible to train/adapt your body to quickly disengage in tightening up which would therefor reengage your traditional breathing owing to the idea your breathing only becomes inefficient when you tighten up, which ultimately reduces the effecitiveness of a an opponent's surprise attack (unless it is from behind where under no conditions could you foresee it)



This however is not the case when you are surprised.  Your flinch will be instantaneous which you cannot control and is inbuilt. It's just your actions after the flinch that you can control and how quickly they come out.

I'm not sure if you are referring to a surprise attack in the first bit but I'm assuming you are.   

Cheers
Sam


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 26, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> I hope this explains it a little bit better, as it is something that has to be experienced or felt or applied to truly understand it. To try to explain it fully, is well, difficult.
> 
> Michael





Hmm I'm not familiar. I won't say I have never recognized someone say it before, but I don't understand. Is KI a complete spirtual basis? Is there actual any way you can scientifically explain it through anatomy? What exactly is hidden energy like KI? I have recently been explained something similiar but does not seem to fit the picture you are painting. I have been told if you practice techniques while keeping your muscles tight and focusing in on diaphragmic breathing, you build up muscle fibers to make it almost like "inner strength" while performing these techniques which to me translate to building up type 2 muscle fibers which is really just endurance/strength muscle.


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## Aikicomp (Feb 27, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Hmm I'm not familiar. I won't say I have never recognized someone say it before, but I don't understand. Is KI a complete spirtual basis?
> 
> Not spiritual, I would explain it as more of a mental kind of thing.
> 
> ...


 
I was on my way out the door when I responded yesterday and did not have time for a more detailed explanation, like I said it's hard to explain it without actually feeling the effects of it. So I hope what I wrote (as inadequet as it was) was enough for you to at least have some idea of what it's all about. There are many books about it and resources available for you to delve into.

A funny story, when I first learned one exercise (where two people can not lift you up off the ground) I bet my father and his friend $20.00 that they could not lift me up. My Dad was 6'1 225 his friend 6' 200 and little old me 5'8 150......needless to say I won the $20, but, gave it back cause they never had a chance anyway.

Michael


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## Glycerine0160 (Feb 27, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> I was on my way out the door when I responded yesterday and did not have time for a more detailed explanation, like I said it's hard to explain it without actually feeling the effects of it. So I hope what I wrote (as inadequet as it was) was enough for you to at least have some idea of what it's all about. There are many books about it and resources available for you to delve into.
> 
> A funny story, when I first learned one exercise (where two people can not lift you up off the ground) I bet my father and his friend $20.00 that they could not lift me up. My Dad was 6'1 225 his friend 6' 200 and little old me 5'8 150......needless to say I won the $20, but, gave it back cause they never had a chance anyway.
> 
> Michael




I'm not very religious. I don't think I ever will be in terms of existentialism. Spirtuality? I suppose I'm open to the suggestion but that still leads one to the argument of who controls this energy? I have heard people say people like Einstein knew about it. I have nothing against religion in terms of value though, like I would be open to Buddhism or something that as a way of life, but I just personally would never subscribe to anything "humans" think they discovered cause I would assume they made it. Which is the forefront of why I could take in a way of living and conduct, just never a belief of higher power, not on that is concerened with just humans. I will stop there cause I wanted to try to walk around this cause the religion can cause unncessary discussion. 

Regardless, I believe you that ki has helped you. I don't doubt that. I'm a philospher in my mind, I analyze and think too much. I am not just someone who "accepts" a concept without knowing why. Hence why religion and even math (although math always has a reason why, I'm the type of person that needs to know that why and becomes severely befuddled until I figure it out, which in actuality, might not be necessary) 

Where I am going with this is, I would be very interested in taking in this concept of ki. Bruce Lee spoke of it I believe. I always wanted to know more of it but no one in my classes discuss it. Almost like it never exists.



But most importantly. I was just dicussing on my fitness forum about muscle fibers. They told me only the best athletes can recruit 70% of muscle fibers. The other 30% is reserved for survial situations, like a murder breaks into your home. I'm just curious, I wonder if this energy is really just the ability to acquire the muscle fibers in a more controlled motion? I am not trying to say Ki energy doesn't float around, but I'm just wondering if taking in such a belief can be avoided? Perhaps this could give an anatomical reasoning?

My psychology professor told me things about spinning dervishes who are monks who can spin around for a period of time and stop and can take a piercing wound from a weapon and not even feel it or flinch from it. He also told me of his mother who had poor circulation and it took her a long time of trial error and almost giving up until she was able to control her heart. Her heart would speed up due to this poor circulatory condition and the specialist told her its possible to control your heart at times (which is a involuntary fuction)  She eventually did learn it and lived way past her time with someone wtih that condition)

I know this is all very philosophical and I tend to analyze things like this... 
I'm not sure what you think my attitude is cause it might be misinterpreted..but to summarize

1. ) I am very interested in this ki energy. (I actually have a filipino secondary instructor that did speak of this energy and was roman catholic and switched over to buddhism. He said since that transition, his martial arts went to higher levels.) I could speak to him.

2.) Is it necessary to believe in some outside force and to what extent? You dont' seem to have taken into Buddhism but you believe in ki.

Take your time reposting or send me a personal message. It is possible you just know how it works and not the whole wordly aspect of it. But enlighten me of what it is you do know.


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## thetruth (Feb 27, 2009)

> OK, There is energy all around us, universal energy if you will, and we teach certain Ki exercises with mental imaging, breath control, mental focus and control to access that energy and use it in every day life as well as in Ju-Jitsu techniques. Once you learn how to harness Ki you can use it to you advantage ie: my teacher would wear a sport jacket in the dead of winter. He could "push" the cold away from his body with Ki. You can walk with Ki, work with Ki, throw with Ki, punch and kick with Ki, ect.
> Chinese call it Chi..Japanese call it Ki. Aikidoka are taught to harness and use it in their Aikido techniques. Our style of Ju-Jitsu uses Aikido techniques and principles (as well as Karate, Judo and Savate) so, that's probably where my teacher picked it up. Eventually, after you learn the basic exercises, you learn to "flow" it all the time no matter what you are doing and at times, actually have to concentrate to "turn it off" and revert back to using physical stregnth.



I seriously doubt that he pushed the cold away, perhaps warmed his body a touch and caused a bit of steaming.  Also I will add one thing.  There is a book out there called 'Angry White Pyjamas' by a guy who went and did the Yoshinkan Aikido's police riot course.  During his time there the founder Gozo Shioda passed away.  After the funeral a large group of high ranking students (well into the dan levels) went out for the wake and got into a fight.  No Aikido came out, it was a messy punch on.  Now I'm not saying it ever would but it certainly made me doubt that any KI could be developed on the spot to use in a fight.   Also it isn't something you can use in a fight from the beginning, it takes many years in an art form such as aikido to get the techniques to a point where they are effortless and just flow with or without the use of ki.
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Aikicomp (Feb 28, 2009)

thetruth said:


> I seriously doubt that he pushed the cold away, perhaps warmed his body a touch and caused a bit of steaming. Also I will add one thing. There is a book out there called 'Angry White Pyjamas' by a guy who went and did the Yoshinkan Aikido's police riot course. During his time there the founder Gozo Shioda passed away. After the funeral a large group of high ranking students (well into the dan levels) went out for the wake and got into a fight. No Aikido came out, it was a messy punch on. Now I'm not saying it ever would but it certainly made me doubt that any KI could be developed on the spot to use in a fight. Also it isn't something you can use in a fight from the beginning, it takes many years in an art form such as aikido to get the techniques to a point where they are effortless and just flow with or without the use of ki.
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
I don't know what else to tell you. 

I've tried to explain what Ki is about, how it can be learned, practiced and used. I've explained how any Martial Artist who learns it should be able to turn it on and off at will or use it or not use it, again at will and you choose to write no you can't, I doubt it and it can't be done. I've put forward how our style of Ju-Jitsu learns and applies the principles Ki, if you choose to doubt it and don't believe it, then there's not anything I can do or say to convince you. (you've limited yourself before trying to learn something new).

Michael


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## searcher (Feb 28, 2009)

I live in the state next to the "Show-me" state and I tend to be corrupted by them over there.     So if we are talking Ki, Chi,....., then I want to feel it.     


But I want you to tell me exactly how you want me, so my twitching eye or intestinal gas does not throw you off.


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## jarrod (Feb 28, 2009)

i know what you mean jon.  they corrupted me for years by selling beer on sunday.

jf


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## thetruth (Mar 1, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> I don't know what else to tell you.
> 
> I've tried to explain what Ki is about, how it can be learned, practiced and used. I've explained how any Martial Artist who learns it should be able to turn it on and off at will or use it or not use it, again at will and you choose to write no you can't, I doubt it and it can't be done. I've put forward how our style of Ju-Jitsu learns and applies the principles Ki, if you choose to doubt it and don't believe it, then there's not anything I can do or say to convince you. (you've limited yourself before trying to learn something new).
> 
> Michael



I choose based on experience I'm not just writing it off with out ever having tried.  By all means if you're ever in Australia or I'm ever in America I'll look you up and you can show me

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## redantstyle (Mar 1, 2009)

> The other 30% is reserved for survial situations, like a murder breaks into your home.


 
this is one very practical way of looking at it.  this may even be the 'truest' definition of chi. 

on the practice level you've got biomechanics, muscle tonus, harmonized respiration, and varying levels of trance induction.


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## Aikicomp (Mar 2, 2009)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I'm not very religious. I don't think I ever will be in terms of existentialism. Spirtuality? I suppose I'm open to the suggestion but that still leads one to the argument of who controls this energy? I have heard people say people like Einstein knew about it. I have nothing against religion in terms of value though, like I would be open to Buddhism or something that as a way of life, but I just personally would never subscribe to anything "humans" think they discovered cause I would assume they made it. Which is the forefront of why I could take in a way of living and conduct, just never a belief of higher power, not on that is concerened with just humans. I will stop there cause I wanted to try to walk around this cause the religion can cause unncessary discussion.
> 
> 
> Regardless, I believe you that ki has helped you. I don't doubt that. I'm a philospher in my mind, I analyze and think too much. I am not just someone who "accepts" a concept without knowing why. Hence why religion and even math (although math always has a reason why, I'm the type of person that needs to know that why and becomes severely befuddled until I figure it out, which in actuality, might not be necessary)
> ...


 
It was hard for me to accept at first and when I saw my girlfriend do it and then a couple more people do as well, I figured I should just try to do what my teacher was telling me to do. Forget strength, forget ego and trust in yourself to do it.

Sometimes, you just have to do what you're told.

Michael


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 2, 2009)

> Is KI a complete spirtual basis


 
No. Ki/Qi simply means energy. 




> Is there actual any way you can scientifically explain it through anatomy?


 You have Bioelectromagnetic energy. You have the different gas exhanges. ATP and Mitrochondrion. The break down and build up within the human body. All of these things require energy of some sort.
There is no mystical defination except when used in a religious manner.


> What exactly is hidden energy like KI?


 It is not hidden. If we look at the Earth's Qi(Di Qi )The defination would mostly be Geothermal or Geomagetic and so on. We can see the results of Geothermal energy.



> that still leads one to the argument of who controls this energy


 You can to a degree control it. But ATP Mitrochondrion,Gas exhanges and so on happen without the need of control. The breath can be control allowing for artificial breathing which can result in enriching the cells and other body functions. It can also be controled by movement,eating,adaptation of eniviroment and so on. 



> I am not trying to say Ki energy doesn't float around, but I'm just wondering if taking in such a belief can be avoided


 
The clearer the defination of what type of Qi being discussed the easier it is to pinpoint.



> Perhaps this could give an anatomical reasoning?


It would most likely be in the cells which would make the concept of Jing(essence)Or DNA more reasonable.



> I live in the state next to the "Show-me" state and I tend to be corrupted by them over there. So if we are talking Ki, Chi,....., then I want to feel it.


 It took you energy(Qi) to write this. Neurons fire off impulses are sent to the fingers and so on. If you think of Qi by some mystical defination then you will not see it. If you think of Qi as energy then you can see it in Thermal,Electric,magnetic and other energy states.


Qi in religion and Qi as used in TCM medicine differ. One is a mystic,religious,belief the other is a more scientific understanding.


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## Aikicomp (Mar 3, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> No. Ki/Qi simply means energy.
> 
> 
> You have Bioelectromagnetic energy. You have the different gas exhanges. ATP and Mitrochondrion. The break down and build up within the human body. All of these things require energy of some sort.
> ...


 
Well put, hope it helps him.

Michael


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