# Ygkym



## MacPedro (Dec 17, 2011)

Folks,
thought I'd throw this out there and see what kind of stimulating discussion came from it.

I know it's a film (part of the attraction to the target audience of any film is technical accuracy) but in "Ip Man The Legend is Born", the Leung Bik character portrayed by Ip Chun asks the Ip Man character if he has completed the Lower body strength training. This was the subtitle translation in English on the DVD I have. I can't quite make out if he says Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. He goes on to ask about targeted finger which I assume can only be Biu Gee.
Referring to the stance as the lower body strength training can give a different perception of the first form (although any link I am making comes only from my interpretion of the apothacary scene) my question (if I can stop talking in bracketed side notes for long enough to ask it 

Is this a constructive/appropriate/useful way to think about the purpose of the form? 

I've been getting strange hard lumpy bits on the backs of my legs I think it might be muscle as it's mirrored by the other leg.

Apologies for double post it was maybe covered when the film came out.

Regards,
MP

P.S. Not Wing Chun related but a good laugh all the same.


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## yak sao (Dec 17, 2011)

Stance training is very much a part of SNT training. In keeping with the minamalist approach to WC, the founders gave us SNT as an all encompassing form to include stance training, basic structure training, mental focus, chi kung..........
That said, I believe the stance is the most neglected part of SNT.
Sure, you're in the stance while practicing the form, but it's easy to ignore the stance while focusing on what the hands are doing.
I try to make a point to be in the proper stance throughout the form. At the beginning, I don't begin the hands until I feel everything kind of lock into place. Then at every break,( where the hands are both back in double chambered positions) I re evaluate the stance to make sure I didn't get lazy with any of the components.


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## geezer (Dec 17, 2011)

I just recently ran through this same topic on another forum... and have been focusing on this subject in my last couple of classes. I don't know about the movie (haven't caught that one yet), but in our branch of Ving Tsun (coming out of WT) the YGKYM / IRAS (Internal Rotation Adduction Stance) does indeed develop essential lower body and core strength in areas absolutely necessary to our back-weighted stepping. The combination of adduction and forward-rotated pelvis characteristic of the YGKYM, or "Character Two" stance as my old Chinese sifu used to call it, is in every stepping movement we do. It also adds power to both our kicks and punches, and even toughens our abdomens, making them more resistant to low centerline strikes. And that's just the beginning. I'm not even going to get into the whole chi-gung thing. 

On that other forum I mentioned, I ran into some MMA fans who questioned this. One was a professional Physical Therapist or something, and had a terrrific understanding of human anatomy and it's function in a lot of sports. He knew all the Latin names for every muscle and bone. Unfortunately, he knew _nothing_ about Wing Chun, especially the WT branches with our unusual back-weighted stances and steps. 

By using an explosively applied adduction movement trained through the character two stance, we can step forward while maintaining our back-weighting. When our punches are synchronized with this forward pulse (that is the moment when the whole body jolts forward with the weighted rear foot) we can direct the force of our entire bodyweight from the ground up and out through our fist into our target... without rotating our shoulders or front-weighting like most other fighting arts. It is a terrific tool for the close range fighter. Of course these so-called experts on human physiology didn't get it. They argued that since boxers and Muay Thai fighters don't move like that, WC's kinetics are crazy. _Crazy like a fox_, I'd say, but nope, they didn't get it at all. 

So I gave up. I don't have the patience to bandy about with those guys in a duel of words, when it's so easy to demonstrate these things physically. If they were shown it in person, they could see for themselves. Or maybe not. Remember when Galileo tried that with the church? Oh well...


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## yak sao (Dec 17, 2011)

You say they don't get it because boxers don't move that way. Am I wrong, or did the old time bare knuckle boxers do just that?
There are times where I want to proclaim from the rooftops the sensibility and practicality of WC, then there are times when I get tired of trying to convince a bunch of idgits and would rather just let them wallow in their ignorance.


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## BostonRedBaron (Dec 17, 2011)

> Of course these so-called experts on human physiology didn't get it.


What if they are the experts and they are correct?  Have you considered that they view you as close-minded to as you view them?  They have an understanding of human anatomy, physiology, body mechanics, and your throwing theory at them.  



> we can direct the force of our entire body-weight from the ground up and  out through our fist into our target... without rotating our shoulders  or front-weighting like most other fighting arts.


Its not what you believe or what the theory claims, but what you have you tested empirically.  i.e. compared pounds per square inch when you do and don't rotate the shoulders and hips like boxing/muay thai/mma.  How much pounds per square inch does it take to render someone unconscious?  Have you tested this first hand?



> Am I wrong, or did the old time bare knuckle boxers do just that?


No. They didn't. I have heard that argument before.  Asked some old time boxing coaches about that and it wasn't the case.  In either way, its subjective as you cant prove nor disprove whether they did or not nor whether it was successful given how people fight today as you weren't there. So focus on something you can test and gauge results from.



> There are times where I want to proclaim from the rooftops the sensibility and practicality of WC


That's more like it.  Take a page from the Dogbrothers and give it a shot.  

Personally, i have trained in both VT and boxing/muay thai, and tried to both against each system i have studied (among others).  Have you tried both or just making assumptions? I spent 2 years at what is considered to be a very technical mma school and tested my skills against some of the instructors there.  Asked some intelligent questions and adhered to a good test methodology of training.  You might be surprised at the results.


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## yak sao (Dec 17, 2011)

As for the power of a WT punch. I weigh 185#. I have knocked guys who weigh 260# plus, back on their arses, so the punch is powerful. That I don't need to argue or prove. I've seen it firsthand for myself, plus, I've had it done to me.

Nowhere have I ever proclaimed, or seen proclaimed that the WT punch is the most powerful punch in martial arts. What I do teach/proclaim, is what was taught to me. That the body mechanics of WT allow the average man or woman to deliver tremendous force in their strikes while at the same time being protected behind their arms and legs.


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## BostonRedBaron (Dec 17, 2011)

Better. That's first hand knowledge.  But knocked back and rendered unconscious is not the same.  Front kicks regularly knock people back but not out.  I have heard this often:  "I've seen it work.  I've made it work against other people in my organization.  Its been done to me by my instructor."  I take all of those with a grain of salt.  Those are fine unit tests, but lets go beyond that to see when it fails.  That's when testing gets interesting.

Unit Tests:  Does it have sufficient speed/force to knock out an opponent (a non-resisting opponent)
Functional Tests:  Does it have sufficient speed/force to knock out an opponent (a resisting opponent to some degree)
Use Case Tests:  Does it have sufficient speed/force to knock out an opponent in various environments (ring, cage, street, different styles).  Does the technique only work in certain use-cases?
Stress Tests:  Continue to find faster, or larger or more experience, or different styles of opponent until you are no longer able to knock out opponent.  When does it fail and examine results.  
(The best example i can find of this is the Dogbrothers Open  Gatherings.   Invite any/all who wish to fight regardless of experience, age, gender,  weight class, and style and fight record, and for  no other reason than to test your skills in an adrenaline rush  environment (stress test) to see what works and, more importantly, what  fails.  The only rules are those you make up with your sparring partner  before the start of the fight. )

-REPEAT ALL TESTS OVER AND OVER TO ENSURE VALIDITY-- This is the staple of a good test methodology.  Repeat your test results to ensure the initial results were not a fluke.


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## mook jong man (Dec 17, 2011)

You don't need fancy tests , you can feel it .
Get someone to punch you in the shoulder with a horizontal fist from a side on stance , then get them to try it with a Wing Chun punch from the proper Wing Chun stance .

I guarantee that the Wing Chun punch will have a more penetrating quality , rather than exploding on the surface like the horizontal fist.

It is this "penetrating force" that does the damage , not necessarily the amount of force that can be measured in the strike by any sort of  equipment.
The Wing Chun punch is powerful enough to do the job , but the most important quality of the Wing Chun punch is the way it's force  penetrates the target.


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## BostonRedBaron (Dec 18, 2011)

> A punch on the shoulderGet someone to punch you in the shoulder with a horizontal fist from a  side on stance , then get them to try it with a Wing Chun punch from the  proper Wing Chun stance .


I am (was) an assistant instructor in wing chun both in Moy-Yat VT (started the dummy form) and WT (2nd level technician).  So i have done those tests.  Again, those are fine Unit Tests.  But i have tested it in other areas to see what would happen (i.e boxing gloves, mma gloves, no gloves).  The boxers struck with greater force, speed, snap, and penetration power.  The kung fu punches pushed more (uprooted) but did less actual damage to internal organs.  Uprooting does have its place in a fight if that is what the desired effect is.  Best not to be surprised as to which strike has which effect when a fight really occurs.



> You don't need fancy tests , you can feel it .


This is why i quit kung fu.  Too many assumptions, not enough of that whole scientific, analytical process and good test methodology 

Currently trying to write up an article/blog explaining how to properly test martial arts techniques using test methodology, as i am a Test Engineer.  Most martial artists test with simple basic tests (Unit Tests) within their own system but then fail to go beyond that, especially against other stylists and environments.  This is as much of a fault against TMA for failing to stress test their techniques against an adrenaline rush and other styles, as it is for MMA for failing to test against various environment (none cage/ring environments and rule-sets).  
http://www.theredbaron.net/RedBaron/Reds_Blog/Reds_Blog.html


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## mook jong man (Dec 18, 2011)

Wing Chun punches are not meant to be used with gloves on , it increases the surface area of the strike and spreads the force out , decreasing the usefulness at close range.

I would dispute the notion that the boxers punches have greater penetration in their strike, they may generate more overall force because they tend to strike further away from the target , but if the Wing Chun person knows what they are doing then the recipient of the punch should feel the punch deep inside the body.

My late Sifu always said "If you want to test out what your learning go down the pub and start a fight".


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## geezer (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm with Mook when he says that you don't need fancy tests. I distrust a lot of "scientific" testing when there are so many variables involved. IMHO there is as much bad science out there as there is bad kung fu. I think BRB was more on target when he brought up Dogbrothers. You gotta respect that kind of testing. 

As far as punching power, it's hard to match a good boxer. Both my Escrima coaches, Rene Latosa (PMAS system/Latosa Escrima Concepts) and and Martin Torres (Direct Torres Eskrima) were boxers. Both can hit with awesome power, long or short range. But it's a very different system using a different kinetic linking to generate the power. In Eskrima we use a push/drop step, forward weighting and body torque to add to our power. 

In the VT/WT I've trained, we can still get body weight into our punches by synchronizing our centerline arm/elbow power with the forward jolt of our body as we step forward... in other words as we pull up that weighted rear foot. Think about it. When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves. So in a front-weighted stance, your punch hits hardest if you can synchronize it with your drop-step (read Dempsey on this). Conversely, in a back-weighted stance, you get the same effect by synching your punch with the _rear_ foot.  Now_ test it _on a bag or an opponent holding a pad and see for yourself.

OK, now as to _who can hit harder?_ I'd probably bet on the boxer. But who cares? I've seen good power generated a lot of ways. The classical Karate reverse-punch is quite powerful, but IMHO not so practical or efficient.  With the VT/WT method, done right, you can generate a very heavy punch with very little movement. That's very useful. 

_Now can we get back on topic?_ I believe the OP concerned YGKYM and body strength. I only brought up punching as one of the factors affected by YGKYM.  I'd hate to see the thread get derailed into a rehash of the old MMA vs WC nonsense!


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## mook jong man (Dec 18, 2011)

There would be some strengthening of the legs involved with being in the stance ,  I'm sure we can all remember back to when we first started how much the quadriceps used to hurt.
But I think it is just a by product of the stance , if you really wanted to strengthen your legs you would practice the low horse stance used in the knife form.

I believe the primary function of the stance is to transmit the whole bodyweight of the practitioner into a focal point on the centreline , whether the strike is hand or leg it will be backed up by the entire weight of the body as long as it is focused to the centreline.


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## MacPedro (Dec 18, 2011)

Geezer "...When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves..."    Like the low bongs bit in Chum Kiu?  Can I have the rest of Dempsey's name to search reading material please 

MJM "...whether the strike is hand or leg it will be backed up by the entire weight of the body as long as it is focused to the centreline..."  This is where all of our mass is concentrated, is this I wonder linked to WC/VT being a close style?


I'm off topic now meself 
Pete


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## mook jong man (Dec 18, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> Geezer "...When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves..."    Like the low bongs bit in Chum Kiu?  Can I have the rest of Dempsey's name to search reading material please
> 
> MJM "...whether the strike is hand or leg it will be backed up by the entire weight of the body as long as it is focused to the centreline..."  This is where all of our mass is concentrated, is this I wonder linked to WC/VT being a close style?
> 
> ...



It is certainly linked to it being a close range style but it has more to do with the way that the knees and feet are focused towards the centerline .


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## geezer (Dec 18, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> Geezer "...When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves..."    Like the low bongs bit in Chum Kiu?  Can I have the rest of Dempsey's name to search reading material please --Pete



Yeah, just like the way you do the _dai bong_ in Chum Kiu as you pull up the rear foot. Of course in WC/VT/WT you can punch at any time... your punches can't always be coordinated with breathing or stepping. They come too fast. It's just that when you can link everything together, you get a really strong punch.

BTW The book I was referring to is titled _Championship Fighting_ by early 20th Century heavyweight boxing champion Jack Dempsey, copyright 1950. It's a short, easy read, and worthwhile too.


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## MacPedro (Dec 19, 2011)

Guys,
MJM I'm gonna need about a quarter year to digest that, in the meantime I will of course take your word for it  I've been given a new thing to think about for Christmas.

Geezer, I think I've found it with the info you've given thatnks
http://taichiworkout.net/jdbook.pdf

Pete

P.S. Is it acceptable to punch while stepping backwards in WC, if the circumstances dictate?


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> Guys,
> MJM I'm gonna need about a quarter year to digest that, in the meantime I will of course take your word for it  I've been given a new thing to think about for Christmas.
> 
> Geezer, I think I've found it with the info you've given thatnks
> ...



It is acceptable to punch while stepping backwards , but the planting of the back foot must be timed with the strike.
In chi sau if the opponent is rushing forward you can either pivot to redirect his forward momentum or you can take half a step back and absorb the force that way. As you step back drop your Fook sau down trapping both his hands and punch over the top with your other hand.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 21, 2011)

Okay, lets cut out some of the BS in this thread. The wing chun punch in general is a good punch and useful for smaller guys who want to deliver a powerful hit quickly. It is however, one hit of many. Ive been hit a few times from guys smaller than me from different WC organisations in compliant and non compliant drills. A lot of the time, the punch did not do much. That is just physics. IIts like trying to insist that a mini will be able to overturn a lorry by crashing into it. No matter how strong that little car is, it will struggle

That being said, I have known several masters who were able to deal an extraordinary amount of power using great body mechanics. 

What people tend to forget is that although you may be able to produce power in a punch, you may still be susceptible to a counter. The low arch of a standard wing chun punch means that your opponent may dodge and catch you with an overhand right etc. 

Dont rely on set applications or 'magic' training techniques to save you. Its great to build your stance and get a good foundation, but dont think that this alone will make you invincible


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## geezer (Dec 21, 2011)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Okay, lets cut out some of the BS in this thread. The wing chun punch in general is a good punch and useful for smaller guys who want to deliver a powerful hit quickly. It is however, one hit of many.... Dont rely on set applications or 'magic' training techniques to save you. Its great to build your stance and get a good foundation, but dont think that this alone will make you invincible



See, I told you guys he was cantankerous! LOL

...but he's right as usual. Thanks _Kamon_... you keep the discussion honest.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 21, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Wing Chun punches are not meant to be used with gloves on , it increases the surface area of the strike and spreads the force out , decreasing the usefulness at close range.
> 
> I would dispute the notion that the boxers punches have greater penetration in their strike, they may generate more overall force because they tend to strike further away from the target , but if the Wing Chun person knows what they are doing then the recipient of the punch should feel the punch deep inside the body.
> 
> My late Sifu always said "If you want to test out what your learning go down the pub and start a fight".


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feeling, practicing and adjusting. One can do wing chun punches with gloves on.

joy


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## mook jong man (Dec 21, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Feeling, practicing and adjusting. One can do wing chun punches with gloves on.
> 
> joy



You can but your hands aren't going to be as tactile and your not going to cause as much damage to the opponent as if you didn't have any padding on your hands , and if your only inches away from your opponent you need every advantage you can get.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 22, 2011)

geezer said:


> See, I told you guys he was cantankerous! LOL
> 
> ...but he's right as usual. Thanks _Kamon_... you keep the discussion honest.


Haha a cantakerous soul.... 
I just get frustrated with guys who state that a wing chun punch is better than a boxers punch outright. There is no such thing as the best punch, just the best punch for specific situations. 

The wing chun punch works in combination with other techniques. It is not designed to be a power punch which will take an opponent out in one move. It is one of many useful strikes in the wing chun system

I also see that there is discussion on the merits of gloves - I agree that wing chun punches are definately not as effective with gloves on. Most gloves are designed for boxing (lateral and horizontal strikes). So when you d a wing chun punch with them on, the impact area on the hand/glove is wrong. Saying that, small gloves (MMA gloves) do work, mainly because the fingers are free...


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## WingChunIan (Jan 11, 2012)

Just a couple of observations, sorry if they're teaching granny to suck eggs.



geezer said:


> YGKYM, or "Character Two" stance as my old Chinese sifu used to call it,
> Common reference amongst many Wing Chun lineages due to the fact that if you draw a line between the heels and another between the toes you lines form the chinese character for the number 2.
> 
> 
> ...


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## simplewc101 (Jan 12, 2012)

1. Without a strong SLT stance, you're just as uprooted as what you want your opponent to be. Stance should forever be refined.
2. Gloves aren't to protect your opponents face, they are there to protect your hands. It has mores to do with The impulse moment J=F delta t , than it does with P=FA which deals with surface area. The padding compresses, resulting in t larger delta t.
3. As stated previously, it's not always best to compare punches from different styles, as they are each set up differently and used as means to different ends, or effects on your opponent. My wing Chun pak da may just be a setup to break something the opponent would rather leave intact and end the fight asap.

...or you can carry on about all the tests one should do to make sure the punch is as effective as one may claim.. I'll be punching the bag.
 Cheers


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## Domino (Jan 12, 2012)

Some of it is ye olde but I too recommend that book. ^^

My sifu always says some things work for some and not for others so I would say science isn't always correct but needs some tweaks for some.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 12, 2012)

leg training is one of the core functions of SNT by forcing one to stay in YGKYM for prolonged periods of time.


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## Domino (Jan 12, 2012)

I'm not sure how many of you go 100% in class but full force punches and combinations are nothing at all like training drills etc imo. Alot of things change.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 16, 2012)

MacPedro said:


> Folks,
> thought I'd throw this out there and see what kind of stimulating discussion came from it.
> 
> I know it's a film (part of the attraction to the target audience of any film is technical accuracy) but in "Ip Man The Legend is Born", the Leung Bik character portrayed by Ip Chun asks the Ip Man character if he has completed the Lower body strength training. This was the subtitle translation in English on the DVD I have. I can't quite make out if he says Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. He goes on to ask about targeted finger which I assume can only be Biu Gee.
> ...



Leg strength, ability to sink the body weight and the ability to grip the ground are the fundamental reasons  for practising YGKYM. The hands don't work without the legs and a good base hence the reason the first form is done whilst standing in YGKYM.


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## wushuguy (Jan 16, 2012)

YGKYM most definitely trains the stance and lower body strength, but the coordination, rooting, and structural stability is gained by training YGKYM.

In the beginning of WC practice, most will not understand how to feel and use YGKYM, they may bend their knees, but legs too stiff, or they lax and straighten their legs, because they have a hard time to feel what it is to be rooted and relaxed, to be relaxed yet release power. In Chinese, they say your joints have to be "open", if it's "closed" the energy doesn't flow. But after understanding it (not going into the qigong or deeper aspects, just speaking on a physical/structural level) it brings understanding of leverage and body mechanics, and the proper use of rooting and mobility.

Someone on this thread had mentioned that boxing punches were more penetrating thant the WC punch. How much power one can put out in a wing chun vertical punch from YGKYM, that depends on many factors, and one shouldn't judge it's good, bad, or what from one person's demo or from limited experience. And, in the end, a punch is a punch, but how powerful it is doesn't depend on the name or style, but whether you as a practitioner were able to apply the principles properly, had timing, structure, etc. What the punch looked like or what it's called is not important. Use the principles to maximize your potential.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 17, 2012)

MacPedro said:


> P.S. Is it acceptable to punch while stepping backwards in WC, if the circumstances dictate?



Absolutely!!! it is important to have the feet on the ground at the point of impact though otherwise all power is lost.


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