# Why is WTF/KKW TKD More Expensive Than Other Arts?



## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 18, 2014)

From what I have seen WTF/KKW TKD is more expensive than other arts.  For example, in my area, WTF TKD is about $89/month for twice a week, whereas the muay thai / bjj gym is $69 unlimited.

Also, my friend mentioned 4th dan/poom at his school was over $2000.  With 1st dan at $600, one can infer than 2nd and 3rd dan are $1000 and $1500 or so.

So the question is why is WTF/KKW TKD more expensive than say muay thai or bjj?  Looking at it from an economics point of view - i.e., supply and demand - the reasons I see are:

1) It's in the Olympics, so that carrot is dangled in front of kids with aspirations.  Judo is also in the Olympics, but.... (#2)
2) It's flashy, so people are impressed by it.  On the other hand, Judo looks like hard work and not fun.
3) WTF TKD has more of a history of focussing on respect, versus some other arts like MT or BJJ which focus on effectiveness. (That's my point of view, but admittedly it's debatable).  Hence you should feel privileged to test, and not balk at the cost.
4) Related to #2, running a TKD school requires experience and age (e.g., you have to have 4th dan (or 5th dan in some places) to test students), whereas other arts require effectiveness. Thus a person with a TKD gym is likely older with more financial commitments and hence requires a higher income.
5) The student has to have 1st poom/dan to compete at higher levels, so schools have students by the cajones (or female equivalent) if they want to go in tournaments.  
6) GM's and Masters are from the same cultural background, and may stick together, agreeing on prices and thereby limiting price competition.

That's off the top of my head.  If you agree that WTF/KKW TKD tends to be more expensive than other arts, why is it? I don't mean to debate the legitimacy of the prices, only how the prices comes about.


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## dancingalone (Feb 18, 2014)

Dunno if the premise you put forth is universal to begin with.  BJJ schools are actually the most expensive in my area across the board.

But to digress a bit, I would say in general the more expensive schools in my area are open 6 days a week and they have many more classes than the typical 2 hour block a part time school owner might offer.  Facilities, staff, equipment... they all come with a price that the owner has to recoup if he has invested in them to any degree.  I always tell prospects that value should not be measured purely by tuition costs alone.  That $80 a month price might not be that much of a bargain if you only get 2 classes a week with students of all ages crowded together on a rented wooden floor.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 18, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> Dunno if the premise you put forth is universal to begin with.


Valid point...interested in hearing if the KKW/WTF schools are NOT the most expensive.


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## dancingalone (Feb 18, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Valid point...interested in hearing if the KKW/WTF schools are NOT the most expensive.



I'd say it's hard to generalize something like that without comparing apples to apples rather than to oranges.  Classes availability, special training, facilities (mats, bags, etc.), included private time with instructors, test fees, etc.  You've got to factor them all in somehow and then come up with an adjusted value ratio to compare total value of membership.

There are so many KKW ranked instructors out there in the world that I would say it's impossible to state authoritatively that "KKW" classes are the most expensive MA offered.


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## BoA36 (Feb 18, 2014)

I believe the Kukkiwon charge for 4th dan is $150, certainly no more than $300.  Anything above that is from the local master and at $2000, it is exorbitant.  I'd go elsewhere.

Bo


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## msmitht (Feb 18, 2014)

Bjj unlimited for 69 a month? where? No black belt I know would teach for that little. Maybe they have a blue/purple/brown belt teaching.
People charge what their market can pay but both quotes seem low. At Gracie Barra we charge 165per month.


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## Archtkd (Feb 18, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> From what I have seen WTF/KKW TKD is more expensive than other arts.  For example, in my area, WTF TKD is about $89/month for twice a week, whereas the muay thai / bjj gym is $69 unlimited.


What's your area? What's the average commercial rent rate?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 18, 2014)

My instructor charges $50 per month, has about 100 students ($5000 per month), rents a hall for four hours a week (4x1 hour classes a week), the hall costs $200 per month. That leaves him $4800 per month/$1200 per week, for four hours work per week. All grading fees, profit on uniforms, hogus etc, plus any other revenue goes to the GM/club. Thats pretty good coin for four hours work per week


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## cali_tkdbruin (Feb 19, 2014)

IMHO it's not just WTF/KKW TKD that can be expensive, in my region BJJ training is pricey too. More so than what the local taekwondo dojangs charge to train you.


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## Metal (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm happy that we have a non-commercial club system in Germany which offers reasonable prices. So if your wanna learn Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo it doesn't need to be expensive at all.

Right now I pay 10 EUR per month with the option of training 6 days per week (and there are 11 different training sessons offered for adults, ranging from classes that cover all aspects for beginners or advanced to classes that focus on sparring, poomsae or sef defense). 

At the club where I started when I was a kid it's even cheaper, 2 EUR per month for adults and there's two training sessions per week!


The costs for Dan testing fees and certifcates if you go through the national member of the WTF:
(DTU = German Taekwondo Federation)

 1st Dan Kukkiwon and DTU 130,-
 ________________________________
 2nd. Dan DTU 100,-
 2nd Dan Kukkiwon and DTU 160,- 
 ________________________________ 
 3rd Dan DTU 100,-
3rd Dan Kukkiwon and DTU 195,-
 ________________________________
4th Dan DTU 100,-
4th Dan Kukkiwon and DTU 230,-
________________________________
5th Dan DTU 100,-
5th Dan Kukkiwon und DTU 305,-
________________________________
6th Dan DTU 100,-
6th Dan Kukkiwon und DTU 385,-
________________________________
7th Dan DTU 100,-
7th Dan Kukkiwon and DTU 460,-
________________________________
8th Dan DTU 100,-
________________________________
9th Dan DTU 100,-


Of course there are indpendent Kukkiwon schools and istructors who issue Kukkiwon certiificates and those charge more for training and testing.
Once instructors wanna make a living and have their own school they need to charge more.

The most expensive dojang in Germany may be Ko Eui Min's ( http://www.masterko.de/) school in Munich where adults pay approx. 100 EUR per month and there's training five times per week. 

His dan testing fees (Kukkiwon certificates are):

1. Dan  250,-
2. Dan  300,- 
3. Dan  350,-
4. Dan  400,-
5. Dan  460,-
6. Dan  520,-
7. Dan  580

I just checked the prices of a local Kukkiwon-instructor and he charges:

1.Dan - 190,-
2.Dan - 210,-
3.Dan - 240,-
4.Dan - 270,-
5.Dan - 420,-



When I see the prices that some instructors charge for dan gradings in the US I think it's ridiculous.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 19, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> What's your area? What's the average commercial rent rate?


The $69 example was in an industrial area of a Toronto suburb. The TKD examples I gave were more business, less industrial areas.  (That's a factor in cost of course).


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 19, 2014)

cali_tkdbruin said:


> IMHO it's not just WTF/KKW TKD that can be expensive, in my region BJJ training is pricey too. More so than what the local taekwondo dojangs charge to train you.


Does that factor in the TKD testing fees, which I think BJJ doesn't have?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 19, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Bjj unlimited for 69 a month? where? No black belt I know would teach for that little. Maybe they have a blue/purple/brown belt teaching.
> People charge what their market can pay but both quotes seem low. At Gracie Barra we charge 165per month.


Since BJJ doesn't interest me too much, I hadn't looked into it.  A much more serious BJJ club in town has similar monthly fees to TKD, but again, without belt testing fees, it comes out less expensive in total.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 19, 2014)

Metal said:


> When I see the prices that some instructors charge for dan gradings in the US I think it's ridiculous.


Yup, when I went to one club, the person said they charge $600 for 1st dan "the same as the other Korean masters".  So you can read between the lines and understand how/why they all charge the same high price.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 19, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> My instructor charges $50 per month, has about 100 students ($5000 per month), rents a hall for four hours a week (4x1 hour classes a week), the hall costs $200 per month. That leaves him $4800 per month/$1200 per week, for four hours work per week. All grading fees, profit on uniforms, hogus etc, plus any other revenue goes to the GM/club. Thats pretty good coin for four hours work per week


No Insurance? Postage, Printing, Phone, Advertising?  Compensation to assistant instructors?


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## Gnarlie (Feb 19, 2014)

Metal said:


> I'm happy that we have a non-commercial club system in Germany which offers reasonable prices. So if your wanna learn Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo it doesn't need to be expensive at all.
> 
> Right now I pay 10 EUR per month with the option of training 6 days per week (and there are 11 different training sessons offered for adults, ranging from classes that cover all aspects for beginners or advanced to classes that focus on sparring, poomsae or sef defense).
> 
> ...



Completely agree, prices in the UK and Germany are very similar. Here in Munich, the price is pretty similar regardless of which art you choose. Training prices vary but the certification prices are similar because there are only a few qualified examiners. I find the US prices absurd, artificially inflated to take advantage of a captive audience who have no alternative if they want KKW TKD certification.

I'll add that in my experience in Europe you get what you pay for. If someone's charging a higher price it's usually because they have the experience and ability to command that price, not just because. 

Gnarlie


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2014)

ralphmcpherson said:


> My instructor charges $50 per month, has about 100 students ($5000 per month), rents a hall for four hours a week (4x1 hour classes a week), the hall costs $200 per month. That leaves him $4800 per month/$1200 per week, for four hours work per week. All grading fees, profit on uniforms, hogus etc, plus any other revenue goes to the GM/club. Thats pretty good coin for four hours work per week



Really? $200 a month for the hall? That $50 a week. Four classes means he's getting the hall for $12.50 an hour. Seems a tad low to me. 
I also suspect there are expenses you're overlooking. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Archtkd (Feb 19, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The $69 example was in an industrial area of a Toronto suburb. The TKD examples I gave were more business, less industrial areas.  (That's a factor in cost of course).



Don't you think this was something you should have mentioned in the original post? I would think $89 per  in a Toronto suburb is actually cheap? What's the price per square foot of commercial space in a place like Mississauga. Good space in a St. Louis suburb will be anywhere from $18 to $25 a square-foot, annually, net net net. At that rate, monthy rent (excluding utilities and other incidentals) for a mere 1,500 square-feet would cost you $2,250 to $3,125.


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## Archtkd (Feb 19, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Completely agree, prices in the UK and Germany are very similar. Here in Munich, the price is pretty similar regardless of which art you choose. Training prices vary but the certification prices are similar because there are only a few qualified examiners. I find the US prices absurd, artificially inflated to take advantage of a captive audience who have no alternative if they want KKW TKD certification.
> Gnarlie


Who pays for construction and upkeep of the training facilities in Germany? Do teachers pay to build club facilities, do they pay for utility bills, insurance, equipment, etc.


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## Metal (Feb 19, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> Who pays for construction and upkeep of the training facilities in Germany? Do teachers pay to build club facilities, do they pay for utility bills, insurance, equipment, etc.



The majority of non-commercial clubs in Germany train in municipal gyms which mostly belong to public schools. The clubs have to pay rent and also need to cover part of the utility bills. Those costs differ from town to town, but the city councils are very supportive when it comes to recreational sport activities.

The DOSB (German Olympic Sports Federation) offers insurance for it's members. Don't know how much they charge from the clubs, but due to the high number of members in total I think they can keep it very very low per head.


Of course this makes life harder for the commercial schools since it's impossible for them to compete when it comes to the montly fees.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 19, 2014)

Earl Weiss said:


> No Insurance? Postage, Printing, Phone, Advertising?  Compensation to assistant instructors?



Yes all those other things are paid for by the club. Assistant instructors train for free.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 19, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? $200 a month for the hall? That $50 a week. Four classes means he's getting the hall for $12.50 an hour. Seems a tad low to me.
> I also suspect there are expenses you're overlooking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


A school hall can be rented for $10-$20 per hour  in my area and permanent bookings are closer to the $10 mark. The club pays for advertising and other incidentals, those things aren't paid for by the instructors.


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## miguksaram (Feb 19, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> From what I have seen WTF/KKW TKD is more expensive than other arts.  For example, in my area, WTF TKD is about $89/month for twice a week, whereas the muay thai / bjj gym is $69 unlimited.



There are a lot of factors that go into this, not just the style.  First and foremost, market demand will drive pricing.  More times than not if you have a demographic of younger (example: 4-12 year olds) and you live in a middle - upper middle class area, you will have more demand for schools that are not as "hard core" for lack of better words.  In which case more people will choose a TKD school as opposed to MMA school.  So the TKD school can charge a higher price where as the MMA school may have to charge lower in order to draw more interest.    Another factor is how the owner/instructor values himself.  Some may feel they are only worth $69.00 for their time while others feel that their time is more valuable.  Doesn't actually mean one is better than the other, it is only how they value themself.  Plus, there is the "carrot" of being an olympic sport.  Though I find that has had very little impact lately on swaying consumer decision.  Another factor is their location.  The TKD school may be located in a spot where his rent and utilities are higher, perhaps the MMA school is in less expensive location.  Heck they could be right next door to each other and perhaps the MMA school negotiated a better deal and so his costs are lower.  Finally, but not definitely the last reason, the MMA school may have a lot of students and so has the opportunity to lower his/her price whereas the TKD school may be struggling a bit and so needs to charge a bit more to make up for lost income.

When it comes to the ranking and their prices, again, this goes to market demand.  If school owner feels he can get $1000.00 for the black belt test then he/she will charge it.  While some people on here will argue that is not right or say "I teach for free" in long run it doesn't matter what others think.  It is a personal business decision and at the end of the day these two schools that you are talking about are a business, plain and simple.  If the owner sees that only 2 out of 10 people are willing to pay that, then he/she may lower it to an acceptable amount that the market deems fair. 

So to answer your question, there are many factors that determine how prices come about.  In this particular area the TKD school is more expensive.  In my area there is an MMA school that charges $150/month for 3 classes while the TKD charges $120.  Then again there is another TKD school that charges almost $200 a month for unlimited classes.  They tend to do well as do the other two schools I mentioned.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 19, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> Who pays for construction and upkeep of the training facilities in Germany? Do teachers pay to build club facilities, do they pay for utility bills, insurance, equipment, etc.



The dojang owners pay. Typically facilities are not purpose built but they are often purpose equipped i.e. mats, kick bags, changing rooms etc. They have the same bills as everyone else. In fact, the commercial property prices here are incredibly high. They make up for it by having students pay direct debit, and making training available morning afternoon and night to those who wish it. This allows a dojang with quite a small hall to have many members because some only want morning, or evening. The attendance is closely managed.

I just can't see how the US prices are justified; I mean what kind of profit margin must we be talking about in a KKW certification alone? 

Gnarlie


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 19, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> Don't you think this was something you should have mentioned in the original post? I would think $89 per  in a Toronto suburb is actually cheap?


It wasn't something I thought of at the time.  The two places are maybe 1 km apart.  The TKD place isn't exactly a residential area, more business, but on the edge of a residential area (it's in a small plaza).  The 1 km difstance to the MT/BJJ gym is into an area that starts to become more industrial, less business (e.g., industrial supply businesses!).

$89 isn't incredibly expensive, although that is only twice per week and works out to much more when testing is factored in.  Again I wasn't trying to saying it is "too expensive", only trying to discuss the underlying reasons.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 19, 2014)

In the Washington, D.C. area, TKD is pricey for a few reasons. The area is expensive to live in, and dojang owners simply copying one another in terms of prices. This is especially true of the Korean owned shops. These days,TKD does not cost me dime, as I study alone, read books, watch videos and occasionally train with friends. Once lure of the belt left me, a great weight and a great expense was left behind.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 19, 2014)

miguksaram said:


> First and foremost, market demand will drive pricing.  ...
> When it comes to the ranking and their prices, again, this goes to market demand.  If school owner feels he can get $1000.00 for the black belt test then he/she will charge it.



True.  Our joke in university economics was that every answer must include the phrase "supply and demand".

Helping increase demand IMO is pushing the dream of the black belt, as opposed to the dream of getting better.  Also, kids in particular are competitive, and if one kid is going for a black belt, the next kid wants to do so as well.

There is also the leming effect, whereby if several people are willing to pay $X, then it must be an ok deal, and the next person will pay it too. 

And of course, the student / parents decides that $x is worth it only after a heavy investment and significant deference to authority (i.e., to the Master / GM).  The school doesn't tell you that in the introductory offer of $49 for 1 month & free uniform, where the student / parents would have no investment already and would be more apt to say "no".

I really see the deference to authority as a big reason for the high demand.  Students don't feel (IMO) that they can politely shop elsewhere once they started at a club for some time and realize the average cost per month including tests, especially BB tests.  I think shopping elsewhere would be viewed as an insult to the school and would burn bridges.  For instance, could a person say that $X is too much for a BB test and simply get it done elsewhere while remaining a student?  I'm sure the first school would tell the student to leave, even if the student was fine with not wearing the new belt in class.


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## wimwag (Feb 20, 2014)

Why?  Because as a sparring sport it requires competition as part of rank advancement and when you do these things in a western society, lawyers get involved.  Hence the $200 training bra, $65 headgear, $60 gloves, $35 footies, $20 shinguards.  Liability plays a major role.

Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2


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## WaterGal (Feb 20, 2014)

It's not been my experience that WTF TKD is more expensive at all, so I would question that assumption. I know the 2 TSD places that we compete with charge a little more than us (and for the kind of limited schedule you mention).  I don't actually know the prices at the MMA place nearby, but what I've heard from people that have done BJJ/MMA type arts is that it's usually _more_ expensive, not less.

That being said, I think people charge what they feel they can get away with and afford based on prevelent pricing in the area, what their costs are and what they offer.  If BJJ guy's in a warehouse and his rent is $2,000/month, while TKD place is in a strip mall paying $4,000/month, then the TKD place is going to have to charge more to stay in business.


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## WaterGal (Feb 20, 2014)

wimwag said:


> Why?  Because as a sparring sport it requires competition as part of rank advancement and when you do these things in a western society, lawyers get involved.  Hence the $200 training bra, $65 headgear, $60 gloves, $35 footies, $20 shinguards.  Liability plays a major role.



If you're paying that much for standard-issue TKD gear, you're getting ripped off.  Also, it's actually easier to get insurance for TKD-type sparring than it is for sparring that involves submission holds.  Many insurers won't even cover you if you do that.


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## wimwag (Feb 21, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> If you're paying that much for standard-issue TKD gear, you're getting ripped off.



I pay what the only two stores in a reasonable distance charge.  





> Also, it's actually easier to get insurance for TKD-type sparring than it is for sparring that involves submission holds.  Many insurers won't even cover you if you do that.



In other words....liability.


Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2


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## Archtkd (Feb 21, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> . I find the US prices absurd, artificially inflated to take advantage of a captive audience who have no alternative if they want KKW TKD certification.
> 
> I'll add that in my experience in Europe you get what you pay for. If someone's charging a higher price it's usually because they have the experience and ability to command that price, not just because.
> 
> Gnarlie



I detest price gouging, but Taekwondo here in the U.S is actually cheap when compared to many other activities/sports, especially for youth. I wonder what you would say about costs of seasonal youth soccer or hockey? The sports media org ESPN did an informal survey in 2009, which showed youth in 16 amatuer soccer clubs here spent up to $6,000, each, a year to practice and play soccer. That's about $500 a month. Here's a link to the related article -- http://espnfc.com/columns/story?id=620541&cc=5901. 

The financial magazine Forbes in the summer of 2012 published a column decrying the hight cost of youth sport, and cited the example of a regular American father who discovered his average spending per child playing youth sports jumped from $9,076 in 2010 to $11,704 in 2011. That's an average of $756 per child, per month in 2010, to about out $975 per child, per month in 2011. Non of the father's kids were involved in a martial art. Here's the Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johncla...ucking-sound-is-just-your-kid-playing-soccer/

Here's the blog directly relating to the father who tracked cost of his children's sporting activities.  http://www.statsdad.com/p/youth-sports-costs.html


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## Gnarlie (Feb 22, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> I detest price gouging, but Taekwondo here in the U.S is actually cheap when compared to many other activities/sports, especially for youth. I wonder what you would say about costs of seasonal youth soccer or hockey? The sports media org ESPN did an informal survey in 2009, which showed youth in 16 amatuer soccer clubs here spent up to $6,000, each, a year to practice and play soccer. That's about $500 a month. Here's a link to the related article -- http://espnfc.com/columns/story?id=620541&cc=5901.
> 
> The financial magazine Forbes in the summer of 2012 published a column decrying the hight cost of youth sport, and cited the example of a regular American father who discovered his average spending per child playing youth sports jumped from $9,076 in 2010 to $11,704 in 2011. That's an average of $756 per child, per month in 2010, to about out $975 per child, per month in 2011. Non of the father's kids were involved in a martial art. Here's the Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johncla...ucking-sound-is-just-your-kid-playing-soccer/
> 
> Here's the blog directly relating to the father who tracked cost of his children's sporting activities.  http://www.statsdad.com/p/youth-sports-costs.html



Shocking to me. Thank you for providing some context. I feel sorry for you guys if there is not a way for kids to get access to quality sports training and tuition without a fairly wealthy sponsor parent. 

You'd be hard pushed to achieve those prices in Europe even if the kid took one on one tuition with a coach every day.

In fact, when I looked into sports costs in the UK a few years back, TKD was also one of the cheaper activities, but there was nothing even close to the prices in those articles even among the most expensive activities. 

I think I'd have my kids be swimmers. Public pool, shorts and a towel can't cost that much. 

Gnarlie


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## Rumy73 (Feb 22, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> I detest price gouging, but Taekwondo here in the U.S is actually cheap when compared to many other activities/sports, especially for youth. I wonder what you would say about costs of seasonal youth soccer or hockey? The sports media org ESPN did an informal survey in 2009, which showed youth in 16 amatuer soccer clubs here spent up to $6,000, each, a year to practice and play soccer. That's about $500 a month. Here's a link to the related article -- http://espnfc.com/columns/story?id=620541&cc=5901.
> 
> The financial magazine Forbes in the summer of 2012 published a column decrying the hight cost of youth sport, and cited the example of a regular American father who discovered his average spending per child playing youth sports jumped from $9,076 in 2010 to $11,704 in 2011. That's an average of $756 per child, per month in 2010, to about out $975 per child, per month in 2011. Non of the father's kids were involved in a martial art. Here's the Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johncla...ucking-sound-is-just-your-kid-playing-soccer/
> 
> Here's the blog directly relating to the father who tracked cost of his children's sporting activities.  http://www.statsdad.com/p/youth-sports-costs.html



Poppycock. These links have to do with the amount of money going towards school sports. There is a political agenda. Now when I enroll
my son in the local basketball or soccer club, it costs me about $100 for a good two months. All gear is included. Tkd on the other hand never stops bleeding: monthly $100, gear, test fees, sundries, seminars, blah, blah.. Tae kwon dinero


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 22, 2014)

My kid's have played a variety of sports and most of the time it was pretty affordable.  However, when you advance to a travel team, all star team, etc. then those costs really start to soar and can make looking at training in Tae Kwon Do a cheaper alternative.  Yet, if your kid's are elite Tae Kwon Do athletes then again those costs can really soar as well.  

Gnarlie,

You are right pool, swim shorts and you are good.  Except if your kid's wants to be on a swim team.  Then there will be some more costs.  If they are good here in the states you would have then on a swim team (more $), they would need a coach (more $), there would be travel (think $$$$$$$) for competition including competition fees, hotel, air fare, etc.  It can add up quickly.  It all depends on if they in it for recreation or more. 

I would add I love the European model and renting out the gyms.  That is some thing that should be done here in the States more and is some times done at local community colleges, town halls, etc.  We do have lower cost alternatives at the YMCA where many have karate or Tae Kwon Do programs and it is pretty reasonable.  Yet, frankly some of the best training, teaching will cost some dollars.


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## Archtkd (Feb 22, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Poppycock. These links have to do with the amount of money going towards school sports. There is a political agenda.


What political agenda and what school sports are you talking about? Are we reading the same articles I referred to? Wait until your son starts getting into serious soccer -- if he want to and you want and can afford to support him -- and you'll see.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 22, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> What political agenda and what school sports are you talking about? Are we reading the same articles I referred to? Wait until your son starts getting into serious soccer -- if he want to and you want and can afford to support him -- and you'll see.



I disagree. I played soccer seriously, and it was much cheaper than the martial arts.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 22, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> What political agenda and what school sports are you talking about? Are we reading the same articles I referred to? Wait until your son starts getting into serious soccer -- if he want to and you want and can afford to support him -- and you'll see.



Yes, I read those articles. Ridiculous and sad no-limits parenting going on there. How about setting some reasonable parameters and managing reasonable expectations for children? If one enrolls kids in elite clubs that cost that much and cannot say no to expensive traveling teams, well the only sucking sound is that of a foolish parent. Local soccer or basketball is much, much less expensive. I would argue light years cheaper.


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## Archtkd (Feb 22, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> I disagree. I played soccer seriously, and it was much cheaper than the martial arts.



I think there's a good price point for everything but we too often cite the highest prices we've seen in taekwondo as the baseline for disussing cost, and also forget the pricing of other activities and sports. In the same way that you will find more affordable places for soccer, you can find more affordable alternatives for taekwondo and other martial arts. There are park district, YMCA and JCC taekwondo programs, for example, that have good programs at what many would agree is reasonable price and sometime cheaper than other activities in those venues.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 22, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> I think there's a good price point for everything but we too often cite the highest prices we've seen in taekwondo as the baseline for disussing cost, and also forget the pricing of other activities and sports. In the same way that you will find more affordable places for soccer, you can find more affordable alternatives for taekwondo and other martial arts. There are park district, YMCA and JCC taekwondo programs, for example, that have good programs at what many would agree is reasonable price and sometime cheaper than other activities in those venues.



That is true.


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## WaterGal (Feb 24, 2014)

wimwag said:


> I pay what the only two stores in a reasonable distance charge.



Try doing some online shopping.  If you're buying high-end gear, I'd say that was probably reasonable, but you can get a good-quality WTF head protector for under $40, etc.  For what it's worth, we retail a full set of TKD gear for $150.



> In other words....liability.



Sure, liability is a part of the cost of running a school.  My point was that the liability cost for a TKD school is the same or less than for a BJJ school, so that would not be a reason why a TKD school would be more expensive.


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## WaterGal (Feb 24, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> I think there's a good price point for everything but we too often cite the highest prices we've seen in taekwondo as the baseline for disussing cost, and also forget the pricing of other activities and sports. In the same way that you will find more affordable places for soccer, you can find more affordable alternatives for taekwondo and other martial arts. There are park district, YMCA and JCC taekwondo programs, for example, that have good programs at what many would agree is reasonable price and sometime cheaper than other activities in those venues.



That's a good point.  You can do activities at many different levels of price and involvement.

At the rec center down the road from our school, they offer a weekly all-ages karate class for I think $80 for two months. Which is less than half of what we charge, but then you have to come to that one time or you get nothing.  Having a full-time facility means that students can (and some of them do) come to class every day, and that you can have different programs targeted at different ages - but it costs more to provide that.

I was also helping a friend find dance classes for her kid the other day, and they ranged from $60 for 6 classes at the rec center to $800ish for 8 months of weekly lessons at a dance studio (and I think their website said if you want to be in the troupe you have to do at least 3 classes per week, so $2400+ for the year, plus of course the costumes and travel costs).  So it just depends.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 28, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> That's a good point.  You can do activities at many different levels of price and involvement.
> 
> At the rec center down the road from our school, they offer a weekly all-ages karate class for I think $80 for two months. Which is less than half of what we charge, but then you have to come to that one time or you get nothing.  Having a full-time facility means that students can (and some of them do) come to class every day, and that you can have different programs targeted at different ages - but it costs more to provide that.
> 
> I was also helping a friend find dance classes for her kid the other day, and they ranged from $60 for 6 classes at the rec center to $800ish for 8 months of weekly lessons at a dance studio (and I think their website said if you want to be in the troupe you have to do at least 3 classes per week, so $2400+ for the year, plus of course the costumes and travel costs).  So it just depends.



But you run a tkd school, no?


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Try doing some online shopping.  If you're buying high-end gear, I'd say that was probably reasonable, but you can get a good-quality WTF head protector for under $40, etc.  For what it's worth, we retail a full set of TKD gear for $150.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, liability is a part of the cost of running a school.  My point was that the liability cost for a TKD school is the same or less than for a BJJ school, so that would not be a reason why a TKD school would be more expensive.




Sorry waterGal you can not get the approved WTF gear for $150.00, the electronic socks are $65.00 by there selfs, plus the WTF approved gloves are another 40.00, then a WTF approved competition uniform $100-$200 then WTF approved Shins and forearms another $90.00. People at the U.S. open was sent to buy the proper gear or they could not compete. If you want your own EPB hogu that is $499.00 plus the other equipment you need for it to work.


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2014)

Seriously how many on here actually compete at a high WTF level? The reason I ask is the numbers some of you give is way too cheap for the International athlete, I know I have three trying to make it on the international level. Go get a reality check and actually look into what is WTF approved and what people think is WTF approved. Saw hundreds of athletes having to but new equipment because what they was sold was not the proper gear and uniforms by WTF standards. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Archtkd (Feb 28, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Sorry waterGal you can not get the approved WTF gear for $150.00, the electronic socks are $65.00 by there selfs, plus the WTF approved gloves are another 40.00, then a WTF approved competition uniform $100-$200 then WTF approved Shins and forearms another $90.00. People at the U.S. open was sent to buy the proper gear or they could not compete. If you want your own EPB hogu that is $499.00 plus the other equipment you need for it to work.



Sir - Save for the electronic socks and EPB you and I can get everything else for half the price you are quoting -- because we can buy at wholesale as a dojang. The prices you are quoting are retail at the venue. I am talking about WTF approved gear from Mooto and Kwon.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 1, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Sorry waterGal you can not get the approved WTF gear for $150.00, the electronic socks are $65.00 by there selfs, plus the WTF approved gloves are another 40.00, then a WTF approved competition uniform $100-$200 then WTF approved Shins and forearms another $90.00. People at the U.S. open was sent to buy the proper gear or they could not compete. If you want your own EPB hogu that is $499.00 plus the other equipment you need for it to work.



Veyr few people are going to compete at a level for that gear to be required. The vast majority can skip all that and stick with a plain hogo, and vinyl dipped gloves, boots and headgear.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 1, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Veyr few people are going to compete at a level for that gear to be required. The vast majority can skip all that and stick with a plain hogo, and vinyl dipped gloves, boots and headgear.



I agree - even where the NGB stipulates what brands and models are approved for WTF sanctioned events, a local level competitor only needs to buy the equipment required to fulfil the requirement set out in their sports insurance. That doesn't include an electronic hogu or socks as they are not strictly necessary for protection. Club level protection is easily obtainable for around £150 wholesale, national and international competition is something else, a specialist market with a special commitment.

Entry level equipment e.g. the MTX brand from Mooto can be WTF approved and economical, allowing a student to develop their skills without having to pay through the nose for something they may never compete in.

Electronic scoring equipment can wait. 



Gnarlie


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## Rumy73 (Mar 1, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I agree - even where the NGB stipulates what brands and models are approved for WTF sanctioned events, a local level competitor only needs to buy the equipment required to fulfil the requirement set out in their sports insurance. That doesn't include an electronic hogu or socks as they are not strictly necessary for protection. Club level protection is easily obtainable for around £150 wholesale, national and international competition is something else, a specialist market with a special commitment.
> 
> Entry level equipment e.g. the MTX brand from Mooto can be WTF approved and economical, allowing a student to develop their skills without having to pay through the nose for something they may never compete in.
> 
> ...



Yes, fancy electronic gear can wait or maybe is not needed at all. While most gear sold to students by dojangs is slightly inflated in cost, that is not the real expense. We have discussed it before, it is testing fees. This fleecing that crosses over into different MA styles is despicable.  "Oh, you paid two years worth of dojang fees to the club, worked out regularly, and helped teach classes? Yes, you can now test for your second dan but that will cost you $xxx." Come on! The sad thing is that so many schools buy into this sick practice, because "everybody" is doing it.  It is straight up sleaze. Go ahead defend it. People have rationalized much worse things.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 1, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Yes, fancy electronic gear can wait or maybe is not needed at all. While most gear sold to students by dojangs is slightly inflated in cost, that is not the real expense. We have discussed it before, it is testing fees. This fleecing that crosses over into different MA styles is despicable.  "Oh, you paid two years worth of dojang fees to the club, worked out regularly, and helped teach classes? Yes, you can now test for your second dan but that will cost you $xxx." Come on! The sad thing is that so many schools buy into this sick practice, because "everybody" is doing it.  It is straight up sleaze. Go ahead defend it. People have rationalized much worse things.



I don't see a problem if the test prices are in line with the Kukkiwon price. I don't begrudge a dojang owner earning a living.

I agree with you when it's many hundredfold profit. You can choose where to test. It should be the first question to ask at a new place. 

Gnarlie


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## WaterGal (Mar 1, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Sorry waterGal you can not get the approved WTF gear for $150.00, the electronic socks are $65.00 by there selfs, plus the WTF approved gloves are another 40.00, then a WTF approved competition uniform $100-$200 then WTF approved Shins and forearms another $90.00. People at the U.S. open was sent to buy the proper gear or they could not compete. If you want your own EPB hogu that is $499.00 plus the other equipment you need for it to work.



Sorry, I didn't understand from your comment that you were talking about electronic hogu and similar really high-end stuff.  I was talking about the basic hogu, arm & shin guards, cup and headgear that most people (who aren't competing at a national level) get, which is of course going to be cheaper.  That stuff is perfectly fine for local tournaments, but if you're competing at a high level that's a different matter.


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## WaterGal (Mar 1, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Seriously how many on here actually compete at a high WTF level?



Probably not many.  Most TKD practitioners are not going to go to an international level, or even want to.  In my experience, most people aren't looking to go to any tournaments, they're just doing TKD because it's fun and good exercise.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 1, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> ... You can choose where to test. It should be the first question to ask at a new place.



I would be surprised if almost any school lets you pay a yearly membership but test elsewhere. I often see the "loyalty" card played e.g., you shouldn't practice at another school, go to tournaments the school isn't going to, etc.  I've posted once before that a kid I know "liked" on Facebook another school, and the master made mention of it to him.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 1, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I would be surprised if almost any school lets you pay a yearly membership but test elsewhere. I often see the "loyalty" card played e.g., you shouldn't practice at another school, go to tournaments the school isn't going to, etc.  I've posted once before that a kid I know "liked" on Facebook another school, and the master made mention of it to him.



Sad. Ask the right questions before joining / at least 18 months before 1st Dan. Then you have time to change, choose a school whose tariff structure suits your pocket and moral compass and test away. 

An instructor who does not encourage cross-pollenation is not a good instructor. There is more to be gained from unification than separation. 

Gnarlie


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Veyr few people are going to compete at a level for that gear to be required. The vast majority can skip all that and stick with a plain hogo, and vinyl dipped gloves, boots and headgear.



First off vynyl dip hand and feet are not allow in WTF Olympic style sparring. That is ITF point sparring,  the thread is about cost for WTF/KKW. Sorry but the WTF G-Rated events only allow certain equipment to be worn and used. I was just at the U.S. Open and watch people go and buy uniforms and equipment that was not on the WTF approve list.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> Sir - Save for the electronic socks and EPB you and I can get everything else for half the price you are quoting -- because we can buy at wholesale as a dojang. The prices you are quoting are retail at the venue. I am talking about WTF approved gear from Mooto and Kwon.



Right we as school owners can buy at a discounted rate but as regular people they pay retail and even if they buy from there school you and I both mark up equipment so we can make a profit.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Sorry, I didn't understand from your comment that you were talking about electronic hogu and similar really high-end stuff.  I was talking about the basic hogu, arm & shin guards, cup and headgear that most people (who aren't competing at a national level) get, which is of course going to be cheaper.  That stuff is perfectly fine for local tournaments, but if you're competing at a high level that's a different matter.



Agree but also at the state level now for USAT you must have the approve gear or the state tournament can be unsanction and those athlete can not qualify for Nationals at the elite level.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 2, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Right we as school owners can buy at a discounted rate but as regular people they pay retail and even if they buy from there school you and I both mark up equipment so we can make a profit.



I would only mark up to the point where I was still cheaper than they could get it anywhere else. I don't see equipment as a main income stream as it's a one-time investment for each student. It makes more sense to make sustainable profit from ongoing training fees. 

Gnarlie


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## Gnarlie (Mar 2, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Agree but also at the state level now for USAT you must have the approve gear or the state tournament can be unsanction and those athlete can not qualify for Nationals at the elite level.



And the budget WTF approved range  MTX from Mooto is not available in the USA?

Gnarlie


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I would only mark up to the point where I was still cheaper than they could get it anywhere else. I don't see equipment as a main income stream as it's a one-time investment for each student. It makes more sense to make sustainable profit from ongoing training fees.
> 
> Gnarlie



Absolutely agree, I tell my parents how to care for there equipment and we also have a trade in value when they out grow them. This way we can save some other parents a few dollars.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> And the budget WTF approved range  MTX from Mooto is not available in the USA?
> 
> Gnarlie


 MTX is available but not allowed in the elite level competion, also certain gloves that say WTF approve was not allowed like Granal or something like that.


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## Archtkd (Mar 2, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> And the budget WTF approved range  MTX from Mooto is not available in the USA?
> 
> Gnarlie


They are available for dojangs -- from Sangmoosa Best USA. I bought sets (shin, forearm, gloves, headgear, regular hogu) for 15 students of an after school program run by my dojang two months ago.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 2, 2014)

double post


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## Gnarlie (Mar 2, 2014)

In my experience when something says WTF approved on it, it doesn't always mean it will be accepted -  it might be old stock from a brand that no longer has approval. It pays to check the approved supplier lists before buying and again before competing if elite competition is your goal - everyone else doesn't need to worry about it - if it has been WTF approved in the past, then it meets their safety requirements, but the manufacturer hasn't kept paying the licensing fees. 

At any given time there's usually one budget brand that is WTF approved, and that's the one to go for if price gouging gets your goat. 

Gnarlie


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## Rumy73 (Mar 2, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't see a problem if the test prices are in line with the Kukkiwon price. I don't begrudge a dojang owner earning a living.
> 
> I agree with you when it's many hundredfold profit. You can choose where to test. It should be the first question to ask at a new place.
> 
> Gnarlie



Ok. In theory, asking the right questions is key in any transaction. However, when it comes to the martial arts, people do not always know what to ask. Dojang owners are not always upfront with fees and other costs. They remind me of used car dealers at times, not lying but omitting things. Like a family who comes in to start little Johnny, they have no idea of what the kukkiwon is. They do not understand that testing fees escalate in most places. They sign the contract and after that yellow belt rest that costed them $45 on top of the monthly fees, the owner says the next level costs $55. Cha-ching. Time for sparring classes. Little johnny needs gear. The school "cannot guarantee the quality" (we have all heard that one) and recommends their gear, which is sold at an inflated rate. Parents have no clue cheaper options are viable. Cha-ching. Then there is the kids bb game. The owner says little Johnny can be a bb and pushes for little Johnny to get it. Sucker parents shell out $600 for the test. The owner does not tell them that in a few years, Johnny will have to retest as an adult. Cha-ching.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> They are available for dojangs -- from Sangmoosa Best USA. I bought sets (shin, forearm, gloves, headgear, regular hogu) for 15 students of an after school program run by my dojang two months ago.


 
Yes they are but like I said not allow at WTF sanction events.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 2, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> The owner does not tell them that in a few years, Johnny will have to retest as an adult. Cha-ching.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the KKW does not require any additional testing for a kid turning 15 years old to "convert" from poom to dan.  Whether the school will send in the paperwork without another test is a different matter, which may be what you are saying.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 2, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the KKW does not require any additional testing for a kid turning 15 years old to "convert" from poom to dan.  Whether the school will send in the paperwork without another test is a different matter, which may be what you are saying.



It is a practice that is common in the DC area. My understanding of kkw rules is like yours, which caused big friction at a dojang where I used to go. A parent was told a bb retest was necessary and it would cost about $500. Since our kids were in class together, she approached me and asked if was it true. I expressed to her what you wrote but added that lots of schools here do it. She asked why? Then figured out the answer herself.  The dojang owner found out I told her the practice was a school decision, and he tried to say I was disrespectful. I politely replied that when it comes to charges and fees that honesty is the best policy.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 3, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> It is a practice that is common in the DC area. My understanding of kkw rules is like yours, which caused big friction at a dojang where I used to go. A parent was told a bb retest was necessary and it would cost about $500. Since our kids were in class together, she approached me and asked if was it true. I expressed to her what you wrote but added that lots of schools here do it. She asked why? Then figured out the answer herself.  The dojang owner found out I told her the practice was a school decision, and he tried to say I was disrespectful. I politely replied that when it comes to charges and fees that honesty is the best policy.





Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the KKW does not require any additional testing for a kid turning 15 years old to "convert" from poom to dan.  Whether the school will send in the paperwork without another test is a different matter, which may be what you are saying.



Although there is no additional test required, there is a nominal fee for the processing of the updated paperwork.

An additional test is no bad thing, to ensure standards are met, but I think charging for anything other than the paperwork fee and the testing expenses is a bit off.

Seems like some places have trouble balancing the values of TKD against the desire for profit. Not everywhere is like that though, and as I said, you need to ask the right questions at the outset, which is possible if you do a bit of research before leaving the house. 

Gnarlie


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## Rumy73 (Mar 3, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Although there is no additional test required, there is a nominal fee for the processing of the updated paperwork.
> 
> An additional test is no bad thing, to ensure standards are met, but I think charging for anything other than the paperwork fee and the testing expenses is a bit off.
> 
> ...



Not possible, really.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 3, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Not possible, really.



Of course it is. The information exists on this very forum for those who want to find it. Alternatively, googling 'typical cost Taekwondo black belt' and sniffing around a bit turns up some interesting results. 

Gnarlie


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## Archtkd (Mar 3, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I would only mark up to the point where I was still cheaper than they could get it anywhere else. I don't see equipment as a main income stream as it's a one-time investment for each student. It makes more sense to make sustainable profit from ongoing training fees.
> 
> Gnarlie


 That's exactly what we do.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 3, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Of course it is. The information exists on this very forum for those who want to find it. Alternatively, googling 'typical cost Taekwondo black belt' and sniffing around a bit turns up some interesting results.
> 
> Gnarlie



Hold on, cowboy. Again, lets talk about parents bringing in little Johnny for tkd. How are they even going to know to Google the search phrase you suggest? Most ppl going into MA have little idea of the real costs. Understanding these costs is not easy nor clearly disclosed. Part of the problem is the lure of the bb and an over deference to masters, which in Korea are just coaches. Not to say a coach does not deserve respect.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 3, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Hold on, cowboy. Again, lets talk about parents bringing in little Johnny for tkd. How are they even going to know to Google the search phrase you suggest? Most ppl going into MA have little idea of the real costs. Understanding these costs is not easy nor clearly disclosed. Part of the problem is the lure of the bb and an over deference to masters, which in Korea are just coaches. Not to say a coach does not deserve respect.



Ok worst case scenario - little kid starts TKD with no research.  By the time that kid gets to black tag, the parent should already be aware of the cost of the black belt test. If not, that's the parent's failure. With around 12 to 18 months from black tag to the black belt test, it's not too late to change schools and not lose time if the price is not to their liking.

This is not secret information, it's pretty openly available online for those who want to look for it. I'd say most instructors or other black belts in the class would not withhold information regarding the cost of the test when asked.

So the information is available there are options. 

Gnarlie


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## terryl965 (Mar 3, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the KKW does not require any additional testing for a kid turning 15 years old to "convert" from poom to dan.  Whether the school will send in the paperwork without another test is a different matter, which may be what you are saying.



You are right no re-test just pay $50.00 and they will convert it from poom to dan, Also nobody needs for any instructor to send it in any individual can do that on there own.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 3, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> You are right no re-test just pay $50.00 and they will convert it from poom to dan, Also nobody needs for any instructor to send it in any individual can do that on there own.



And too many folks rely on the master who does tell them the full scoop.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 5, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> You are right no re-test just pay $50.00 and they will convert it from poom to dan, Also nobody needs for any instructor to send it in any individual can do that on there own.


Thanks, I didn't know that the individual can submit the paper work himself/herself.


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## Metal (Mar 6, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> You are right no re-test just pay $50.00 and they will convert it from poom to dan, Also nobody needs for any instructor to send it in any individual can do that on there own.



It's totally unnecessary though. Better spend those 50$ on a black collar uniform when a kid is old enough to wear one.

It's just a sheet of paper and a plastic card. Plus once somebody's old enough they would issue Dan certificates for upcoming tests anyway. 

But hey, if there's people who pay more than 200$ for their 1st Dan then I'm pretty sure there's also people who pay 50$ to have their Poom converted to Dan. Actually those 50 bucks at least go to Kukkiwon and help promoting and developing Taekwondo and don't fill the pockets of greedy instructors. ^^


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## andyjeffries (Mar 6, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> You are right no re-test just pay $50.00 and they will convert it from poom to dan, Also nobody needs for any instructor to send it in any individual can do that on there own.



Are you sure it's $50?  I understood it was $10, the same as the cost to replace a lost dan certificate.  I just spoke to a friend who's on the Kukkiwon Education Committee and he said that he doesn't think there is a fee, but maybe $10 is right to cover international postage (as he lives in Korea).  I think if you are at the Kukkiwon they just do it for you, no fee.  You're definitely right on the no need for an instructor to do it, anyone can do it.


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## terryl965 (Mar 6, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> Are you sure it's $50?  I understood it was $10, the same as the cost to replace a lost dan certificate.  I just spoke to a friend who's on the Kukkiwon Education Committee and he said that he doesn't think there is a fee, but maybe $10 is right to cover international postage (as he lives in Korea).  I think if you are at the Kukkiwon they just do it for you, no fee.  You're definitely right on the no need for an instructor to do it, anyone can do it.




I was told it was fifty dollars, but then again I never have converted one my parents always did or my instructor. So it may cost nothing but I would imagine they would charge something for the new certificate and new card they send to you.


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## Master Dan (Mar 7, 2014)

You get what you pay for some schools charge up to $250 a month for children's classes but that includes transportation on average I see about $60 a month gets in some cases two one hour classes and in other cases for 60-80 a month you can train up to six days a week several times a day at any satellite locations or schools beyond just the main dojang Our classes are free we supply all uniforms equipment and pay for the black belt degrees and we train 2 hours 3 times a week we are non profit all instructors are volunteer we grant write to support it so I see all cost over the entire map you cannot judge one area or an entire art by what single area or master does


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## Master Dan (Mar 7, 2014)

I also know of one master friend that did so well with a large program they engineered and built a 7 million dollar Do Jang and are doing very well he does not emphasize hard sparring or  go to WTF tournaments but instead promotes training lifestyle and has a Tae Kwon Do festival once a year with a lot of variety and friendship of course the top full contact Dojangs refuse to participate maybe even show up to mock some but so what they are jealous of his success and I love his spirit he believes in one Taekwondo and everyone is welcome and respected I was amused at what he said to me one time he said you Americans are so greedy you want respect right away but you must first give respect and earn it in return He has always been very kind to me we went down one year and provided Eskimo dancing as part of the program and when I got up to participate many national Grand Masters got up and danced with us it was a blast


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## andyjeffries (Mar 7, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> I was told it was fifty dollars, but then again I never have converted one my parents always did or my instructor. So it may cost nothing but I would imagine they would charge something for the new certificate and new card they send to you.



When I've done a replacement certificate, it's literally send a $10 bill and a letter to the Kukkiwon and that's it.  I've done that twice.  So I'd be surprised if the cost of a poom-dan was almost as much as a fresh 1st Dan cert.  I won't know for about 4 years...


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## Rumy73 (Mar 7, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> When I've done a replacement certificate, it's literally send a $10 bill and a letter to the Kukkiwon and that's it.  I've done that twice.  So I'd be surprised if the cost of a poom-dan was almost as much as a fresh 1st Dan cert.  I won't know for about 4 years...



The cost in question is not kkw associated, it is a local practice in the Washington, DC area where masters "retest" and charge for the poom bb to adult bb. Kkw associated costs are another matter.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 7, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> The cost in question is not kkw associated, it is a local practice in the Washington, DC area where masters "retest" and charge for the poom bb to adult bb. Kkw associated costs are another matter.



Sorry, I thought Terry and I were discussing the KKW fees.  I know local masters may find other ways to scam students, but we were discussing the real situation with how to do it directly.


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## Rumy73 (Mar 7, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> Sorry, I thought Terry and I were discussing the KKW fees.  I know local masters may find other ways to scam students, but we were discussing the real situation with how to do it directly.



Andy, my mistake. Hope all is well with you and yours.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Mar 14, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> ...  BJJ schools are actually the most expensive in my area across the board.



I agree with you, in my area Gracie BJJ and similar schools charge much more than WTF/KKW affiliated dojangs. My TKD training costs were a better bargin in comparison...


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## WaterGal (Mar 23, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> I would only mark up to the point where I was still cheaper than they could get it anywhere else. I don't see equipment as a main income stream as it's a one-time investment for each student. It makes more sense to make sustainable profit from ongoing training fees.
> 
> Gnarlie



I feel the same way.  The main income should be from tuition.  I don't want to gouge my students, so I charge about the same as what they'd pay if they bought it online.  We make a little profit, but it's not a big money-maker. 

But I know that a lot of schools do mark up the equipment a ton and are charging like $250 for the most basic Century gear with cloth arm and shin pads, which is what I had assumed was going on with Terryl's post.


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## WaterGal (Mar 23, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Although there is no additional test required, there is a nominal fee for the processing of the updated paperwork.



Don't they automatically convert it the next time the student tests?  Or is there an extra fee for that?  (This is something I haven't had to deal with yet, but I thought that's what I'd read on the KKW site, that they'll promote directly from 1st Poom to 2nd Dan or whatever.)


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## Gnarlie (Mar 23, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Don't they automatically convert it the next time the student tests?  Or is there an extra fee for that?  (This is something I haven't had to deal with yet, but I thought that's what I'd read on the KKW site, that they'll promote directly from 1st Poom to 2nd Dan or whatever.)



You're right. 

Gnarlie


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## Metal (Mar 27, 2014)

If anyone wants to know why WTF-recognized head protectors (and gear in general) are so expensive:

http://worldtaekwondofederation.net/images/2014-2016_WTF_Recognition_Guideline_V2.pdf


Charging the highest fee per brand and year for uniforms is okay since it's the best selling item of any Taekwondo brand out there. I just don't get why they charge so much for headgear. I mean, most people buy all other protectors first and a lot of people (at least over here) never buy a head protector. One reason is that they're too expensive and the other is that you don't need them when you're just doing Taekwondo as a leisure sport.

Of course in kyorugi it's the only item that makes a brand being visible (besides Adidas putting their three stripes on arms and legs of uniforms). Especially now that the Daedo and KP&P electronic protectors are used in most competitions. Yet the WTF limits the use of head protectors to the models of their main sponsor anyway at their main tournaments.


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## WaterGal (Mar 28, 2014)

I have a question for people with recent national/international competition experience, since there seems to be a few on here.  At what level of competition do you need  to buy your own electronic hogu and headgear?  Where I'm at, the local tournaments only expect you to have the electronic socks; they provide the hogu for people to use free-of-charge and score head shots manually. I'm guessing that changes at some point.  Also, Daedo or KP&P?

Also, are there any good online resources anyone would recommend for keeping up with electronic scoring developments, rule changes and so forth?  I want to make sure that we can support our students and help them pursue competition to whatever extent they wish to.  So far, none of them have wanted to do anything more than a few local  tournaments, but I think a couple of them are getting the bug.


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## terryl965 (Mar 29, 2014)

WaterGal at every WTF sanction tournament both in the U.S. and over sea they provide the electronic hogu's mainly to make sure they are proper;y working right. They will also provide the head gear as well, now they have a device they use to check socks so they cannot be tamper with. MAS Taekwondo does a great job with news about every aspect of Olympic competition in TKD. Right now it is daedo even though KP&P has broke into the market place WTF is still using Daedo and probaly will continue to use since it was a great success at the 2012 Olympics.


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## Metal (Mar 29, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Right now it is daedo even though KP&P has broke into the market place WTF is still using Daedo and probaly will continue to use since it was a great success at the 2012 Olympics.




Since KP&P teamed up with Adidas there's good chances that they may be the main system in a couple of years. I mean, just remember how fast Lajust was gone and replaced by Daedo.


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## WaterGal (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks, I appreciate that.  Do Daedo and KP&P work together?  I mean to say, if I/my students got e-socks from Daedo and WTF switches to using KP&P, would they need to buy new socks?

I'm actually glad that we don't have any black belt students yet (we've only been open 1.5 years), so I have a little time get on top of this stuff.  It seems like it's still so up in the air.

Also, USAT.  I saw that the regional USAT qualifier requires coaches to take an online USAT coaching course to participate. If anyone's taken this course, is this actually worthwhile and informative?  I mean, if our students get more serious about competing, Mr WaterGal and I will take it whether or not it's any good, but I'll be in more of a hurry to take it if it's helpful, you know?


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## terryl965 (Apr 6, 2014)

WaterGal you would need to get the right socks for the right Hogu's.

Yes the course helps with you understanding the rules completely and you need to be a level one to coach at a National event or at team trails for UUSAT.


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## Archtkd (Apr 6, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Also, USAT.  I saw that the regional USAT qualifier requires coaches to take an online USAT coaching course to participate. If anyone's taken this course, is this actually worthwhile and informative?  I mean, if our students get more serious about competing, Mr WaterGal and I will take it whether or not it's any good, but I'll be in more of a hurry to take it if it's helpful, you know?



You have to be , at the minimum, certified as an Associate Coach to coach at any any USAT sanctioned event. You have to be a Level 1 coach to coach any athlete partipicapting in the Cadet (12-14), Junior (15-17) & Senior (18-32) year old World Class Black Belt Division at the USAT National
Championships.

New rules also require that you have a criminal background check to coach or referee, or be certified as a coach or referee,  at at any USAT sanctioned event. Taking the certification courses is essential if you want to fully understand and know how to prepare your dojang members for sport taekwondo, even if you are not participating in elite level WTF competition.


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## WaterGal (Apr 7, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice, everyone.  

Most of the local WTF-style tournaments where I'm at aren't official USAT ones and don't require all this stuff, and that's what I'm used to.  And so far, our students have been happy with that and the ones that want to compete have done well in them.  But there's a couple students that I could see wanting to take it further as they go on, and I want to make sure we can support them and help them get there.


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## 1992 (Apr 25, 2014)

TKD is expensive because 95% of the schools in the US are belt factories out to generate max profit.  TKD is not what it once was and I found it to be a waste of time and an even bigger waste of money in my experience.  You are MUCH better off training in a more well rounded art that has its focus on combat, not sport ring-sparring.


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## skribs (Apr 26, 2014)

1992, TKD is a well-rounded art if taught right.  At my school, we learn a lot more than just olympic-style sparring (well, except for our sparring club...which is specifically for olympic-style sparring).  Maybe we're in the 5% and maybe it's a bigger group than you think that actually teach more than just point sparring and forms.

I can say my school is probably more on the expensive side, but the credentials of the instructors, the size of the curriculum, and the level of instruction make the price well worth it.


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## Gnarlie (Apr 26, 2014)

1992 said:


> TKD is expensive because 95% of the schools in the US are belt factories out to generate max profit.  TKD is not what it once was and I found it to be a waste of time and an even bigger waste of money in my experience.  You are MUCH better off training in a more well rounded art that has its focus on combat, not sport ring-sparring.



And 85.62% of statistics are made up on the spot.

There are plenty of good TKD schools out there if you know what to look for. 



Gnarlie


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 26, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> And 85.62% of statistics are made up on the spot.
> 
> There are plenty of good TKD schools out there if you know what to look for.
> 
> ...



Real martial artists shun money. People who accept money for instruction are corrupting the purity of the martial arts. 

In fact, people in other professions--teachers, LEO, firefighters, soldiers--should also not receive any money for their service. They should do their jobs out of a sense of duty and personal pride.

And people should certainly never seek to ever get more money. That's preposterous!!!

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## Rumy73 (Apr 26, 2014)

I have no problem with profiting from teaching tkd. I do take issue with how fees are woven into a student's journey. Frankly, if a school handed over a sheet of paper that laid out all the associated costs from white to blackbelt, I would feel differently. Another point, people may really not know what they want out of tkd or any art until they put in some time. I have taken away great things from tkd training and left others behind.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 26, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> In fact, people in other professions--teachers, LEO, firefighters, soldiers--should also not receive any money for their service. They should do their jobs out of a sense of duty and personal pride.


Maybe this is sacireligious to say, but I don't have the same worship and sense of thanks that most people do towards police, firefighters and military.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the job they do and have no particular issues with them.  But the reason probably 99% of the people chose these fields was that it was the best paying, most interesting job for them.  It wasn't a sense of obligation.  In Canada, police and firefighting pays around $100k with overtime, and they have great pensions.  Consequently, these jobs are VERY much sought after.

I'll add that I joined the military for basic military training after high school and before university, since for me it was the best paying, most interesting job I could get in the summer to help finance my studies.

For those who did chose these fields out of obligation, thanks.  For the 99% of the others, I give the same respect and thanks -no more and no less - that I give to any other worker.

Adam Smith said "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker  that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.". The baker bakes bread out of his own interest, not charity to others. Other occupations are pretty much the same IMO.


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## Gnarlie (Apr 26, 2014)

Except you don't risk your life baking bread. Today really seems to be a day for pulling numbers out of thin air, so here goes:

About 9o% of the negative stuff you read on the internet about Taekwondo turns out not to be true in real life.

Gnarlie


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 26, 2014)

Are you saying you think most people join the police or firefighting out of societal obligation or moral duty?


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## Gnarlie (Apr 26, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Are you saying you think most people join the police or firefighting out of societal obligation or moral duty?



I think the reasons are different for everyone and it's impossible to generalise, but those professions are a vocation for many. I also think that society doesn't owe the same debt of gratitude to a butcher or baker as they do a police officer or soldier.

Gnarlie


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 26, 2014)

Agree to disagree I suppose.  I see construction work being in the same ballpark in terms of danger, yet it doesn't have the same societal deference.  Again I don't belittle people contributions in the police etc., but when people sign up for the pay ($100k in Canada), or power, or pension, then the societal good is to me simply a positive externality of their own preference.  Again, agree to disagree.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 26, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Agree to disagree I suppose.  I see construction work being in the same ballpark in terms of danger, yet it doesn't have the same societal deference.  Again I don't belittle people contributions in the police etc., but when people sign up for the pay ($100k in Canada), or power, or pension, then the societal good is to me simply a positive externality of their own preference.  Again, agree to disagree.



I agree. Police and fire tend to self aggrandize and often overplay the danger of the job. I am not saying it does not come without risk but these folks are typically well compensated.


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## WaterGal (Apr 26, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the job they do and have no particular issues with them.  But the reason probably 99% of the people chose these fields was that it was the best paying, most interesting job for them.  It wasn't a sense of obligation.  In Canada, police and firefighting pays around $100k with overtime, and they have great pensions.  Consequently, these jobs are VERY much sought after.



That was the point, yeah?  People don't work their butt off and take out $100k in loans to start a martial arts school just out of some spiritual sense or social obligation.  They're looking to earn a living by teaching people, which means charging tuition and fees.  

Some folks have this idea that a "real" martial arts teacher isn't doing it to earn a living and that having a business corrupts the true purity of whatever.  I think they saw Karate Kid or some movie with a wise old martial arts master living in a mountain temple teaching people for free and think that's how it really is.


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## jks9199 (Apr 26, 2014)

Folks,
I'm at a bit of a loss to see what police, fire fighter, educator, or plumber salaries have to do with the cost of WTF/KKW instruction.  How about we try to swing back on topic, OK?


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## skribs (Apr 26, 2014)

> Some folks have this idea that a "real" martial arts teacher isn't doing  it to earn a living and that having a business corrupts the true purity  of whatever.  I think they saw Karate Kid or some movie with a wise old  martial arts master living in a mountain temple teaching people for  free and think that's how it really is.



I haven't run a martial arts school, but I have seen Ip Man 2.  I remember in that movie he ended any friendly conversation with his students or prospective students with "...and when can you pay your school fees?"

I think what people are complaining about is the hidden inflation as you get higher and higher belt.  Most places are run by martial artists, not business majors, so you can't really blame them.  They didn't go to school to learn management skills and customer service; they went to martial arts classes to learn martial arts.  The various instructors I've had over the years have been a nurse, a couple military instructors, a world-level competitor, and a pastor.  Their education has been in the medical field or in counseling.  Even so, it can be disheartening to learn that the deeper you go, the more expensive it's going to get, especially if there is a huge jump for dan tests.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 27, 2014)

skribs said:


> I haven't run a martial arts school, but I have seen Ip Man 2.  I remember in that movie he ended any friendly conversation with his students or prospective students with "...and when can you pay your school fees?"



On the other hand, there is Ip Man: The Legend is Born. At the end of the clip, the master offers lessons, and the student says he doesn't have any money.  The master says "Did I ask you to pay?".


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## skribs (May 7, 2014)

That master is old and has already saved up enough from working and teaching in order to live out the rest of his life comfortably, but wanted to pass on his wisdom, whereas Ip Man was a youngish man in his prime who still had to earn a living, especially after losing his family fortune.

That's the only excuse I could think of to justify my explanation above


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## donnaTKD (May 7, 2014)

my muay thai classes are £120 per month for 12 sessions (3 per week) -- attendance is limited to 10 students at a time and the school is open 7 days a week - any extra sessions are charged at £10 per session (1 hour)

my TKD classes are £160 per month for 4 sessions (1 per week) -- attendance is open to however many they can get through the door (usually about 30) and the school is only available once a week with no option for other sessions.

go figure 

i'd far rather carry on learning how to literally kick someone to death than try and understand a sensei that's pre-occupied with everything else that he's got going on.............JMO

donna


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## Gnarlie (May 7, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> my muay thai classes are £120 per month for 12 sessions (3 per week) -- attendance is limited to 10 students at a time and the school is open 7 days a week - any extra sessions are charged at £10 per session (1 hour)
> 
> my TKD classes are £160 per month for 4 sessions (1 per week) -- attendance is open to however many they can get through the door (usually about 30) and the school is only available once a week with no option for other sessions.
> 
> ...



Seriously... where do you find TKD at 40 quid a session?? 

Typical price in the UK = £7 per 90 minutes.

More if the instructor is a Korean high dan grade, but still not close to the rates you quote. I hope you get free brandy and cigars in the restaurant afterwards, because otherwise I can only think of one place that money is going. 

Gnarlie


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## donnaTKD (May 7, 2014)

yup that's why i've now bailed on TKD (despite my username) --- the first TKD session was free prolly more to get people through the door and it's a case of economics from then on - the sessions are held in a leisure centre gym that's very near my house and that's prolly rented by the hour.  most of people that go are teenagers - last session i went to there was only me, sensei and one other person over the age of about 16 there --- i think that the kids parents are getting ripped off but hell they're willing to pay him for "kiddie sitting" them.

my muay thai gym is a specific dojo that's run by the guy that owns the building and has done for many many years albeit tarted up from the run down place it always used to be again the first session is free but that session is limited to certain days every week and every class attendance is near full   he makes more than enough and loves teaching muay thai and it's got a "family" atmosphere to it and there are limits on age to those going through the doors which means that those that go do so cos they really want to learn.  and if i get caught up in my work which sometimes happens then if i've got a session booked that day and need to make it a later time then he'll do his best to fix that for me too 

i only got told the costs at the end of the free TKD session and to say i was stunned was an understatement - i liked some of the stuff that he was teaching so i forked out for a couple of months but don't see it going anywhere fast plus he only grades every 4 months (16 weeks) so you do the math and to get a belt is horrendous.  compare this to my muay thai centre that hold in house competitions every 4 weeks to see how the students skills are and then grades every 8 weeks and again do the math - the muay thai centre is way better value for money.

forget brandy and cigars cos a 1/2litre bottle of water will cost you an additional £1  

in my opinion the TKD classes are just a legalised extortion racket as i see it where i live which is why i stayed with the muay thai dojo in warrington about an hour east of my house at the end of the A55 north wales coast road.

donna


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## Gnarlie (May 7, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> yup that's why i've now bailed on TKD (despite my username) --- the first TKD session was free prolly more to get people through the door and it's a case of economics from then on - the sessions are held in a leisure centre gym that's very near my house and that's prolly rented by the hour.  most of people that go are teenagers - last session i went to there was only me, sensei and one other person over the age of about 16 there --- i think that the kids parents are getting ripped off but hell they're willing to pay him for "kiddie sitting" them.
> 
> my muay thai gym is a specific dojo that's run by the guy that owns the building and has done for many many years albeit tarted up from the run down place it always used to be again the first session is free but that session is limited to certain days every week and every class attendance is near full   he makes more than enough and loves teaching muay thai and it's got a "family" atmosphere to it and there are limits on age to those going through the doors which means that those that go do so cos they really want to learn.  and if i get caught up in my work which sometimes happens then if i've got a session booked that day and need to make it a later time then he'll do his best to fix that for me too
> 
> ...



I'm originally from Warrington Donna, and I have NEVER seen prices like that for TKD. I'm in shock. Wow. I guess your MT place is at Bridge Foot? 

Gnarlie


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> yup that's why i've now bailed on TKD (despite my username) --- the first TKD session was free prolly more to get people through the door and it's a case of economics from then on - the sessions are held in a leisure centre gym that's very near my house and that's prolly rented by the hour.  most of people that go are teenagers - last session i went to there was only me, sensei and one other person over the age of about 16 there --- i think that the kids parents are getting ripped off but hell they're willing to pay him for "kiddie sitting" them.
> 
> my muay thai gym is a specific dojo that's run by the guy that owns the building and has done for many many years albeit tarted up from the run down place it always used to be again the first session is free but that session is limited to certain days every week and every class attendance is near full   he makes more than enough and loves teaching muay thai and it's got a "family" atmosphere to it and there are limits on age to those going through the doors which means that those that go do so cos they really want to learn.  and if i get caught up in my work which sometimes happens then if i've got a session booked that day and need to make it a later time then he'll do his best to fix that for me too
> 
> ...



To me, the bit about time for belt promotions is the only thing that sounds good about that TKD place. Lots of TKD schools schedule belt promotions every 2-3 months in order to soak the students for belt test fees. Actually, if they only offer 1 class per week, then testing every 4 months sounds a bit hasty. How much progress are most people going to make in 16 lessons anyway?

(Of course I practice an art where belt promotions typically come several years apart, so my views may be biased.)


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## skribs (May 7, 2014)

> i only got told the costs at the end of the free TKD session and to say i  was stunned was an understatement - i liked some of the stuff that he  was teaching so i forked out for a couple of months but don't see it  going anywhere fast plus he only grades every 4 months (16 weeks) so you  do the math and to get a belt is horrendous.  compare this to my muay  thai centre that hold in house competitions every 4 weeks to see how the  students skills are and then grades every 8 weeks and again do the math  - the muay thai centre is way better value for money.



If you're looking at "money per belt" then yes.  However, there's more to taking classes than just earning a belt.  I could probably skip a few belts in my TKD class based on the curriculum if I tried (I find memorizing the steps fairly easy), but then my technique and sparring skills would be a lot sloppier for the belt I got than if I'd taken my time.


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## donnaTKD (May 7, 2014)

i live in Llanfairfechan now   i'm fazakerly born and toxteth bred and the muay thai centre i use is indeed wolf gym dojo at bridgefoot.

the TKD centre is about 2 miles from my front door in Penmeanmawr --- try writing this when you're not awake lol   i'e got a lot of contacts and friends in warrington and have been going to their gym for long time   the TKD centre was just to try summat different that was closer to home and for me work too 

most of my work comes about through Ranges rally track near Bala north wales so for me it paid to be located where i am plus i have a 3000ft mountain in my back yard and the irish sea virtually in my front yard


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## WaterGal (May 10, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To me, the bit about time for belt promotions is the only thing that sounds good about that TKD place. Lots of TKD schools schedule belt promotions every 2-3 months in order to soak the students for belt test fees.



KKW TKD is set up to go from white to 1st Dan in 2 years.  If somebody's making you wait 4 months to test, it's generally to soak you for tuition fees.  (Assuming you come to class regularly and practice, of course.)  However, if the class is only 1x per week, then testing every other month would be pretty ambitious.  I recommend students come 2-4x per week.


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## donnaTKD (May 10, 2014)

i did some thinking a by my reckoning it would cost around £2500 for a white to 1st dan tkd course  so not worth it bit like the guys at wolf gym that charge very high training fees for very little in return.

my new MT training centre that doesn't do belts or anything but just cracks on training to cage standard with a stable of fighters to back it up and the training centre is for everyone so the newbies get mixed in with the experienced fighters and gain experience that way too


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## skribs (May 10, 2014)

> KKW TKD is set up to go from white to 1st Dan in 2 years.  If somebody's  making you wait 4 months to test, it's generally to soak you for  tuition fees.  (Assuming you come to class regularly and practice, of  course.)  However, if the class is only 1x per week, then testing every  other month would be pretty ambitious.  I recommend students come 2-4x  per week.



That depends on the school.  The schools I've been to scoff at that 2 year "rush" to get the black belt, saying you probably won't be a very competent black belt with only 2 years experience.  3-5 years is the average in my schools.  I don't feel that it's to stretch out the tuition fees, either.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2014)

I agree. It takes about 4 years where I come from, and that's because you want to stand out as better than everybody else at the 1st dan gradings. There are typically a couple of hundred people there, and you want to be in the top 5 percent. It also takes longer if your teacher raises you to be a teacher. 

Gnarlie


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## donnaTKD (May 11, 2014)

wolf gym also offers it's own black belt course - white to black in 18months (18 x £120) training 3 times a week and from what i saw - one of their current black belts would get trashed in a cage.

cheshire martial arts don't claim to be anything that they're not - there is no belted course it's a case of you want to fight then we'll get you to that stage and all for £10 for a 2 hour session   they've also got the track record to back it up


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## Gnarlie (May 11, 2014)

I guess it depends what you want out of training, whether fighting is your goal or you're looking for something else. I do prefer when places are honest about what they are actually offering though. 

Gnarlie


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## donnaTKD (May 11, 2014)

it made a refreshing change to hear him talk so bluntly about it 

the guy i spoke to at CMA said that he could make me cage ready in about 2/3 months which i thought was pushing things a bit mormal timeline is 5/6 months to be really competitive in the cage without getting too trashed   20years of my life has been dedicated to muay thai so i know the risks involved but the price just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore.

i've spoken to him since and he said that given my background if i wanted to try for coaching awards then they'd help me do that as well --- i'm not getting any younger, i've still got the body, speed, reflexes and knowledge to fight in a cage and win but old age says back out sooner rather than later.


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## WaterGal (May 12, 2014)

skribs said:


> That depends on the school.  The schools I've been to scoff at that 2 year "rush" to get the black belt, saying you probably won't be a very competent black belt with only 2 years experience.  3-5 years is the average in my schools.  I don't feel that it's to stretch out the tuition fees, either.



What are they covering in those 3-5 years, beyond the standard KKW curriculum? I'm assuming they must be teaching other things, such as grappling or weapons work - which are valuable, but not part of the KKW requirements.

As I understand it, in Korea KKW schools usually give a black belt after one year, which _does _seem like a rush to me.  But there's really no reason why someone over the age of 7 should take more than a month to learn a Taegeuk form if they're coming to class regularly - they're really not that complicated. It's just good IMO to take another month or two to make it look sharp.  Sparring takes practice, but if you're doing it 30+ minutes every week for 2 years you'll get it, and none of the standard kicks shy of 540 or scissor are hard enough that you need 3+ years to learn them.


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## skribs (May 12, 2014)

It's not just about the curriculum, but about the skills.  My school has a much broader curriculum that includes self defense drills, grappling, and basic striking combos, (and we do the palgwe forms, and he's taken a lot of liberties with 6-8 to make them much more difficult), and I'm sure I could do black belt in 1 year following the curriculum.  However...

Skipping ahead just because I'm good at forms isn't going to give me the *experience* I need.  I can memorize a 20-or-so step form pretty quick, but the flexibility, conditioning, sparring experience, technique, etc. all take time.  If all you're doing is rushing through the KKW Taeguk forms, then you're basically learning dance IMHO.  I would much rather be a green belt and feel I've earned it through my martial arts technique vs. be a black belt and feel I earned it through my knowledge of a 20-step form.


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> What are they covering in those 3-5 years, beyond the standard KKW curriculum? I'm assuming they must be teaching other things, such as grappling or weapons work - which are valuable, but not part of the KKW requirements.




No, just KKW syllabus so that it works and is applicable. The difference is we teach people to understand the fundamental principles behind what they are doing rather than just repeating it parrot fashion. We enable improvisation, not just in sparring but in every aspect. 


WaterGal said:


> As I understand it, in Korea KKW schools usually give a black belt after one year, which _does _seem like a rush to me.  But there's really no reason why someone over the age of 7 should take more than a month to learn a Taegeuk form if they're coming to class regularly - they're really not that complicated.


I disagree, but that totally depends on your frame of reference. 


WaterGal said:


> It's just good IMO to take another month or two to make it look sharp.  Sparring takes practice, but if you're doing it 30+ minutes every week for 2 years you'll get it, and none of the standard kicks shy of 540 or scissor are hard enough that you need 3+ years to learn them.



Again, I disagree respectfully. The further you go, the more you see. I'm still working on kicks now that I thought I had down at 1st Dan. I'm able to see issues now that I couldn't see then. 



Gnarlie


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## Dirty Dog (May 12, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> What are they covering in those 3-5 years, beyond the standard KKW curriculum? I'm assuming they must be teaching other things, such as grappling or weapons work - which are valuable, but not part of the KKW requirements.
> 
> As I understand it, in Korea KKW schools usually give a black belt after one year, which _does _seem like a rush to me.  But there's really no reason why someone over the age of 7 should take more than a month to learn a Taegeuk form if they're coming to class regularly - they're really not that complicated. It's just good IMO to take another month or two to make it look sharp.  Sparring takes practice, but if you're doing it 30+ minutes every week for 2 years you'll get it, and none of the standard kicks shy of 540 or scissor are hard enough that you need 3+ years to learn them.



If you're happy with students who can mimic moves, but can neither apply them not grasp the principles behind them, then this is probably reasonable. 

I'm not, nor is my Master, nor our Kwanjang, so we will stick with a much longer period between belts. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 12, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> It takes about 4 years where I come from, and that's because you want to stand out as better than everybody else at the 1st dan gradings. There are typically a couple of hundred people there, and you want to be in the top 5 percent.


Does this mean that there are other schools testing at the same time?


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Does this mean that there are other schools testing at the same time?



Yes, the grading is run by the national governing body, so every school wanting to grade tests together. 

Gnarlie


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 13, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Yes, the grading is run by the national governing body, so every school wanting to grade tests together.
> 
> Gnarlie


I like the idea of a national body doing the testing - I am sure it keeps the fees reasonable.  

In order to test, do you have to be with a school, or can anyone show up and do as requested to pass?


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## Gnarlie (May 13, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I like the idea of a national body doing the testing - I am sure it keeps the fees reasonable.
> 
> In order to test, do you have to be with a school, or can anyone show up and do as requested to pass?



You have to be recommended by a KKW 4th dan or higher to grade for 1st dan. You also have to have membership of the NGB, which basically means sports insurance through them for about £20 a year. 

To grade for 4th or higher, you have to recommended by a member of the NGB board.

It works. The failure rate varies between 30% and 60% for 1st dan IIRC. Which is why it worth taking the extra time to make sure you stand out for the right reasons. 

I think my first dan test was £100.

Gnarlie


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## skribs (May 13, 2014)

Failure rate for 1st Dan is very low at my school, from what I've seen, but there are also people who have been 1st Keub since I started that are still not black belts.


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## Archtkd (May 13, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I like the idea of a national body doing the testing - I am sure it keeps the fees reasonable.
> 
> In order to test, do you have to be with a school, or can anyone show up and do as requested to pass?


 It can (it actually happens) also be a way for a corrupt and incompetetnt few to bilk and control taekwondoin in their country.


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## Gnarlie (May 13, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> It can (it actually happens) also be a way for a corrupt and incompetetnt few to bilk and control taekwondoin in their country.



That is true. 

Gnarlie


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## WaterGal (May 15, 2014)

skribs said:


> It's not just about the curriculum, but about the skills.  My school has a much broader curriculum that includes self defense drills, grappling, and basic striking combos, (and we do the palgwe forms, and he's taken a lot of liberties with 6-8 to make them much more difficult), and I'm sure I could do black belt in 1 year following the curriculum.  However...
> 
> Skipping ahead just because I'm good at forms isn't going to give me the *experience* I need.  I can memorize a 20-or-so step form pretty quick, but the flexibility, conditioning, sparring experience, technique, etc. all take time.  If all you're doing is rushing through the KKW Taeguk forms, then you're basically learning dance IMHO.  I would much rather be a green belt and feel I've earned it through my martial arts technique vs. be a black belt and feel I earned it through my knowledge of a 20-step form.



Gotcha, so you're doing Hapkido-type stuff too.  For us, we have an separate HKD program at the school, so if people want to do grappling and self-defense drills they can take that instead/in addition, but it's a totally different class.  For TKD class, we stick to WTF sparring, Taegeuk forms, kicking, combos, sparring drills, cardio drills, etc, and then weapons training at black belt.

I couldn't agree more about the "basically learning dance" thing, though.  Forms are good, but I think generally they shouldn't take up more than 10-20 minutes of the class.  I've trained with or taught a number of people who've come from schools that spent most of the class on forms, and their sparring and often their kicking were just kind of terrible.


----------



## skribs (May 15, 2014)

Taekwondo also includes grappling skills and self defense techniques.  The ones we do in TKD class are different than the ones we do in Hapkido class (although there is a lot of overlap).  Granted, most schools only teach one or two punches, several kicks, forms, and sparring, but that doesn't cover the complete scope of what TKD is.

Most arts actually have a little bit of everything, but most schools focus on certain aspects of the art.


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## WaterGal (May 15, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> No, just KKW syllabus so that it works and is applicable. The difference is we teach people to understand the fundamental principles behind what they are doing rather than just repeating it parrot fashion. We enable improvisation, not just in sparring but in every aspect.



As do we. It's essential to me that students understand what they're doing when they do a form.  Otherwise it's just a dance move or waving your arms around.  And as you get more advanced, of course, you'll see details and applications that you missed a year or two or five ago.



> Again, I disagree respectfully. The further you go, the more you see. I'm still working on kicks now that I thought I had down at 1st Dan. I'm able to see issues now that I couldn't see then.



You absolutely get better at kicks and get more out of them the more you do them, not arguing with that.  We start teaching jump kicks at yellow belt for that exact reason, so they get lots and lots of time to practice them.  And of course, the learning process doesn't ever stop.


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## WaterGal (May 15, 2014)

Okay, so I feel like I should say this.  I don't know any of you people, have never been to your schools or seen your students.  Those of you that spend 3-5 years on color belts may be teaching your students some really great stuff and they might all be really awesome.  I'm sorry if that came across as me insulting your school.

I'm just speaking from my own experiences.  The TKD or TSD schools I'm personally familiar with (based on working with their ex-students, seeing demos or competitions, etc) that have that kind of time frame are absolutely, unquestionably ripping off their students.  Even after 3-5 years, their students aren't what I would consider "black belt material".


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## Rumy73 (May 15, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Okay, so I feel like I should say this.  I don't know any of you people, have never been to your schools or seen your students.  Those of you that spend 3-5 years on color belts may be teaching your students some really great stuff and they might all be really awesome.  I'm sorry if that came across as me insulting your school.
> 
> I'm just speaking from my own experiences.  The TKD or TSD schools I'm personally familiar with (based on working with their ex-students, seeing demos or competitions, etc) that have that kind of time frame are absolutely, unquestionably ripping off their students.  Even after 3-5 years, their students aren't what I would consider "black belt material".



And what is black belt material?


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## wimwag (May 15, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> And what is black belt material?




Cotton/Polyester blend.


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## wimwag (May 15, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Okay, so I feel like I should say this.  I don't know any of you people, have never been to your schools or seen your students.  Those of you that spend 3-5 years on color belts may be teaching your students some really great stuff and they might all be really awesome.  I'm sorry if that came across as me insulting your school.
> 
> I'm just speaking from my own experiences.  The TKD or TSD schools I'm personally familiar with (based on working with their ex-students, seeing demos or competitions, etc) that have that kind of time frame are absolutely, unquestionably ripping off their students.  Even after 3-5 years, their students aren't what I would consider "black belt material".




I see what you're saying, but...and its a big but (pun intended?)...although you may be of a certain skill level, martial arts isn't something that everyone does the same.  It's an individual journey and some may be better competitors/fighters, while others are great teachers.  Not all 1st dans will be instant draws when placed into a steel cage.  I think you're putting the cart before the horse here.

There are some bad schools, but I don't think that all schools of a certain style should be lumped together.  Depending on whether or not the student makes martial arts a lifestyle, they may appear to be of a higher or lower skill level than others of the same rank.  Some people drift in and out of the dojos over the years depending on work schedules, family, health etc...

Just food for thought.


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## andyjeffries (May 16, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> I'm just speaking from my own experiences.  The TKD or TSD schools I'm personally familiar with (based on working with their ex-students, seeing demos or competitions, etc) that have that kind of time frame are absolutely, unquestionably ripping off their students.  Even after 3-5 years, their students aren't what I would consider "black belt material".



I think that may be though because you've been caught up in the Western view of a black belt ("complete ninja, ready to kill someone as easily as look at them, expert") rather than the Asian view ("well done, you've learnt the basics and are now competent enough to get on with the rest of your studies").  Remember in Korea, it's standard to get to 1st Poom in a year of training (and contrary to our view in the west, not all Taekwondo instructors in Korea are expert wisened old men that know Taekwondo perfectly).

The other side of it aside from expectations/meaning is is the more practical side. There are inevitable peaks and troughs in any athletic progression (and Taekwondo even as a martial art, not sport, is still a physical athletic ability and training programme). Without the regular training up for gradings and competitions and other events you don't experience the peaks. It's those peaks that push your ability, the focus period where you're nailing details to prepare for an event/grading.

So, I understand what you mean, but consider how good the guy who got his black belt in 3-5 years would be if he'd only graded 4 times in that period instead.  Grading him "fast" has enabled him to improve considerably.

My view on this has now changed over the years, so I understand where you're coming from.  I now want my black belts to be comparatively good compared to those produced by my peers, but I'm not caught up in they have to be perfect to get to 1st Dan.  Now when I promote people to 4th/5th Dan that's a bit different... ;-)


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## Rumy73 (May 16, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> I think that may be though because you've been caught up in the Western view of a black belt ("complete ninja, ready to kill someone as easily as look at them, expert") rather than the Asian view ("well done, you've learnt the basics and are now competent enough to get on with the rest of your studies").  Remember in Korea, it's standard to get to 1st Poom in a year of training (and contrary to our view in the west, not all Taekwondo instructors in Korea are expert wisened old men that know Taekwondo perfectly).
> 
> The other side of it aside from expectations/meaning is is the more practical side. There are inevitable peaks and troughs in any athletic progression (and Taekwondo even as a martial art, not sport, is still a physical athletic ability and training programme). Without the regular training up for gradings and competitions and other events you don't experience the peaks. It's those peaks that push your ability, the focus period where you're nailing details to prepare for an event/grading.
> 
> ...



Probably the soberest and most convincing argument on this topic I have read in a long time. Thanks, Andy.


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## WaterGal (May 17, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> And what is black belt material?



To me, for TKD, it's having a good attitude and toughness, being able to spar well, knowing a wide variety of striking techniques and being able to do them with accuracy and power, being able to perform all their forms precisely and with power, and being at least moderately in shape.  

Somebody that gets winded after one sparring match against a 10-year old, has no accuracy with their kicks, can't remember all of their old forms, and can't do a jump back kick is not someone we'd give a black belt.  But it's someone our main competitors will apparently give at least a red belt to, after 3-5 years.  It seems like the schools around here that do that are just grading and training people really slowly so they can get tuition money from them for longer, which is why I've gotten pretty cynical about it.  

But maybe that's just that these particular schools are just not very good and coincidently also have that training time requirement - I'm willing to accept that I was being unfair in generalizing that to all TKD schools with that time frame.


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## skribs (May 17, 2014)

Hey, the 10 year olds wear me out more than the adults when I'm sparring them!


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## WaterGal (May 17, 2014)

andyjeffries said:


> I think that may be though because you've been caught up in the Western view of a black belt ("complete ninja, ready to kill someone as easily as look at them, expert") rather than the Asian view ("well done, you've learnt the basics and are now competent enough to get on with the rest of your studies").  Remember in Korea, it's standard to get to 1st Poom in a year of training (and contrary to our view in the west, not all Taekwondo instructors in Korea are expert wisened old men that know Taekwondo perfectly).
> 
> The other side of it aside from expectations/meaning is is the more practical side. There are inevitable peaks and troughs in any athletic progression (and Taekwondo even as a martial art, not sport, is still a physical athletic ability and training programme). Without the regular training up for gradings and competitions and other events you don't experience the peaks. It's those peaks that push your ability, the focus period where you're nailing details to prepare for an event/grading.
> 
> ...



I think either I was very unclear in my posts, or you've mixed up my posts with someone else's, because we actually agree on quite a lot there.  I do think along the lines of the "Korean way" of thinking of a black belt, which is why I think 2 years is generally sufficient. (I do think 1 year is rushed.)  

I've been very cynical on this thread because I've seen a number of schools that teach less in 3-5 years than what I was taught as a color belt in 2, so I tend to assume that all TKD schools that take that long and only grade every 4-6 months are just stretching the same material out over a longer period and so are bilking their students.  And that was unfair of me.  Probably, many are not that way, and instead think of a black belt in the "American way", like you say, and expect more precision and understanding from a 1st dan/poom than we would.


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## skribs (May 17, 2014)

> I've been very cynical on this thread because I've seen a number of  schools that teach less in 3-5 years than what I was taught as a color  belt in 2, so I tend to assume that all TKD schools that take that long  and only grade every 4-6 months are just stretching the same material  out over a longer period and so are bilking their students.



Unless you're planning on quitting at black belt, this is actually cheaper.  It's 3-5 years before you start paying the large sums for black belt testing instead of 2 years.  That's an extra 1-3 years of paying less for testing fees.  Personally, I don't plan on quitting when I hit black belt.  So if I got my 1st Dan at 2 years and 2nd Dan somewhere in the 5 year range my pocket would be a lot lighter than just getting 1st Dan at around the 5 year mark.


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## Rumy73 (May 17, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> To me, for TKD, it's having a good attitude and toughness, being able to spar well, knowing a wide variety of striking techniques and being able to do them with accuracy and power, being able to perform all their forms precisely and with power, and being at least moderately in shape.
> 
> Somebody that gets winded after one sparring match against a 10-year old, has no accuracy with their kicks, can't remember all of their old forms, and can't do a jump back kick is not someone we'd give a black belt.  But it's someone our main competitors will apparently give at least a red belt to, after 3-5 years.  It seems like the schools around here that do that are just grading and training people really slowly so they can get tuition money from them for longer, which is why I've gotten pretty cynical about it.
> 
> But maybe that's just that these particular schools are just not very good and coincidently also have that training time requirement - I'm willing to accept that I was being unfair in generalizing that to all TKD schools with that time frame.



What do you say to someone like me, I cannot remember the forms, and frankly lost interest in doing them. I prefer to avoid jumping kicks and rarely sport spar anymore. Am I no longer a blackbelt? That being said, I kick with lots power and flexibility, remain in good shape, and incorporate pieces or forms to something I find useful.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 17, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> You have to be recommended by a KKW 4th dan or higher to grade for 1st dan...To grade for 4th or higher, you have to recommended by a member of the NGB board.


Do these people charge for "recommending" you?


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## Rumy73 (May 17, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Do these people charge for "recommending" you?



It is tkd, what do you think?


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## Gnarlie (May 17, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Do these people charge for "recommending" you?



No, they do not. But, no 4th dan is going to risk you humiliating them at a grading with poor performance, so they will want you to train with them for a while to show them what you can do. 

Gnarlie


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## Gnarlie (May 17, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> It is tkd, what do you think?



Why comment if you're just being negative without actually knowing the facts? 

Gnarlie


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 17, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> It is tkd, what do you think?


$100 for signing a form.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 17, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> No, they do not. But, no 4th dan is going to risk you humiliating them at a grading with poor performance, so they will want you to train with them for a while to show them what you can do.
> 
> Gnarlie


Makes sense, thanks.


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## WaterGal (May 20, 2014)

skribs said:


> Unless you're planning on quitting at black belt, this is actually cheaper.  It's 3-5 years before you start paying the large sums for black belt testing instead of 2 years.  That's an extra 1-3 years of paying less for testing fees.  Personally, I don't plan on quitting when I hit black belt.  So if I got my 1st Dan at 2 years and 2nd Dan somewhere in the 5 year range my pocket would be a lot lighter than just getting 1st Dan at around the 5 year mark.



Mmm, I don't know.  Let's break it down.  Let's say you're paying $100/month in tuition and $40 each for 10 color belt tests, $300 for 1st dan, and $450 for 2nd dan. 

If you took exactly 3 years to get to 2nd dan, you've spent $4750 to get your 2nd dan.  If you took 5 years to get to 2nd dan, you've spent $7150 to get the same rank. That's what I was talking about.  But you're right that at 3 years, the person at the longer-in-rank school will have paid somewhat less because they've done fewer tests.


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## WaterGal (May 20, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> What do you say to someone like me, I cannot remember the forms, and frankly lost interest in doing them. I prefer to avoid jumping kicks and rarely sport spar anymore. Am I no longer a blackbelt? That being said, I kick with lots power and flexibility, remain in good shape, and incorporate pieces or forms to something I find useful.



You still earned your black belt at whatever time you earned it.  (Presumably at some point, you did know your forms and did do sparring.)  That can't be taken away from you, even you don't practice or remember that stuff much anymore.  It's like getting a college degree. But we wouldn't award a black belt to someone who didn't remember their forms and didn't do sparring, because they haven't earned it.


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## Dirty Dog (May 20, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> What do you say to someone like me, I cannot remember the forms, and frankly lost interest in doing them. I prefer to avoid jumping kicks and rarely sport spar anymore. Am I no longer a blackbelt? That being said, I kick with lots power and flexibility, remain in good shape, and incorporate pieces or forms to something I find useful.



You can wear whatever belt you want, but if you wear a black belt in a dojang, you'll look like an idiot.



Rumy73 said:


> It is tkd, what do you think?



I think you make lots of ignorant, whiny, excessively global statements that border on art bashing.


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## Rumy73 (May 20, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can wear whatever belt you want, but if you wear a black belt in a dojang, you'll look like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you make lots of ignorant, whiny, excessively global statements that border on art bashing.



You are completely out of line.


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## Dirty Dog (May 20, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> You are completely out of line.



In what way? If you've earned a black belt, you're welcome to wear it. But if you can't perform the required material while wearing it, you'll look like an idiot.

In general, it's a bad idea to ask a question if you don't want to hear the answers.


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## Rumy73 (May 21, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> In what way? If you've earned a black belt, you're welcome to wear it. But if you can't perform the required material while wearing it, you'll look like an idiot.
> 
> In general, it's a bad idea to ask a question if you don't want to hear the answers.



Lame.


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## skribs (May 21, 2014)

When I see someone wearing a black belt, I know they're someone I can go to for advice and look to as an example.  If you've forgotten the forms, that sets a precedent for me to do so as well.  There was actually one point in my school where the black belts were watching the white belts to follow along with Kibon Il Jang, because they had forgotten how to do it (although these were 1st Dans and you don't do much teaching at my school, especially with specifics like forms, until much later).  So, it's not imperative IMO that all black belts know the forms, but it does set an example.

You say you don't spar.  Well, that's understandable.  Some people can't for medical reasons or don't want to because they're getting older.  However, can you give sparring tips?  Can you do light/no contact sparring drills?

You say you focus on the more practical kicks and less on the flashy kicks.  I don't see a problem with that.

I will say I can understand where Dirty Dog is coming from.  If I saw a black belt that didn't spar, didn't know any forms, and didn't do much besides the basics, I'd kind of wonder what you were doing with that belt on your waist.  The forms are the kicker for me more than anything.

---

Watergal, that's what I'm saying.  If your goal is to get "black belt" or to get "2nd Dan" (etc), then the longer it takes the more you pay in tuition.  However, if you are going to continue with your studies and practice until you either get bored, burn out, or move, then stretching it out means you simply have fewer test fees along the way.

With that said, the method the school uses for pricing is less important than the prices.  For example, I could...

Charge $100/mo for tuition, test every 2 months for $50 (average 125/mo)
Charge $75/mo for tuition, test every month for $50 (average 125/mo)
Charge $125/mo for tuition and make tests included

You probably get the point.


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## Dirty Dog (May 21, 2014)

skribs said:


> When I see someone wearing a black belt, I know they're someone I can go to for advice and look to as an example.



That is certainly one part of what a black belt should mean.



skribs said:


> If you've forgotten the forms, that sets a precedent for me to do so as well.  There was actually one point in my school where the black belts were watching the white belts to follow along with Kibon Il Jang, because they had forgotten how to do it (although these were 1st Dans and you don't do much teaching at my school, especially with specifics like forms, until much later).  So, it's not imperative IMO that all black belts know the forms, but it does set an example.



I'd say that if these people are actively training, but do not know the lower belt material, that is more than setting an example. It's absolutely reprehensible. If you don't do something for a while, you'll forget it. OK, that's just being human. But if you're actively training and do not know the material you already had to perform for your rank, then maybe you should ask yourself if you actually deserve that rank.

I took an extended vacation from training and (being human) forgot forms and such. When I started training (in a related, but not identical system) I sure as hell wasn't about to walk in there in a black belt (although the schools Master offered me that option). I strapped on a white belt and I learned the system. No, I wasn't sparring with other white belts. No, I didn't kick like a white belt. But as I've said before, it's better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.



skribs said:


> You say you don't spar.  Well, that's understandable.  Some people can't for medical reasons or don't want to because they're getting older.  However, can you give sparring tips?  Can you do light/no contact sparring drills?



We have a 62 year old 10th geup with a fake knee, a 70 year old 3rd geup with a pacemaker and a 60 year old 1st geup with 2 titanium thoracic vertebrae. They all spar. No, none of them are going to compete against a 20 year old, but they spar. There are very very few medical conditions (actually, I can't think of any...) that would allow a person to train without allowing them to spar.



skribs said:


> You say you focus on the more practical kicks and less on the flashy kicks.  I don't see a problem with that.



Any school that focuses on "flashy" kicks is probably teaching more gymnastics than martial arts. Yes, I will teach people to do tornado kicks. No, they're not a focus, nor will we spend much (if any) class time on them. A student is more likely to be told "ask me between classes" if/when they ask about kicks like that, and they will certainly be made aware of the lack of applicability of these kicks to real world practice.



skribs said:


> I will say I can understand where Dirty Dog is coming from.  If I saw a black belt that didn't spar, didn't know any forms, and didn't do much besides the basics, I'd kind of wonder what you were doing with that belt on your waist.  The forms are the kicker for me more than anything.



The forms are only a prime consideration within the system that awarded the rank. If you learn the Chang Hon forms and then come to our Moo Duk Kwan school, you're not going to know the forms. On the other hand, if you're a competent black belt, you ought to be able to learn forms quite quickly. When I decided to add a KKW Dan rank, it took me about a month to learn the taegeuk forms. 



skribs said:


> Watergal, that's what I'm saying.  If your goal is to get "black belt" or to get "2nd Dan" (etc), then the longer it takes the more you pay in tuition.  However, if you are going to continue with your studies and practice until you either get bored, burn out, or move, then stretching it out means you simply have fewer test fees along the way.
> 
> With that said, the method the school uses for pricing is less important than the prices.  For example, I could...
> 
> ...



The YMCA charges $40/month for members, $60 for non. And scholarships are available to those who can't afford these rates. We have testing monthly, if there's someone ready to be promoted. On average, people will be able to test every 2-4 months at lower ranks, and will generally spend a year (or more) at rank for the higher geup ranks.

Yes, we promote slowly. On the other hand, even though we're not a tourney-oriented school, when our students do decide they'd like to compete, they clean house, routinely beating higher ranked students from other schools in sparring, breaking and forms competition. Two of our girls (a 14 year old 2nd geup and a 22 year old 3rd) decided to compete at an open AAU tourney in Denver this month. The 14 year old got bumped to the 16-20 year old black belt class for sparring (she's a very tall girl, and very powerful). She took gold. Also a gold in forms. The 22 year old 3rd geup took gold in sparring, forms and breaking; she competed in the 20-25 year old black belt class. Evidence that it's true when people point out that rank is meaningless outside the school that awarded it.
If you want to learn the art of Taekwondo, I like to think we're a good choice. If you just want a certificate for your wall, we're not.
And since it's not a commercial school, there's no profit incentive. There's nothing wrong with commercial schools, mind you, but I am glad we're not one. We have an awful lot of students who could never afford training at a commercial school.


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## Gnarlie (May 21, 2014)

A black belt doesn't have to know everything, but they should acknowledge what they don't know and try to fill those gaps. Deliberately disregarding aspects of the art goes against the black belt self improvement mentality. If you 'throw away' parts of the syllabus because you don't like them, you might be a black belt in something, but I'm not sure it's Taekwondo. I also have to wonder whether you would teach the aspects you don't like. Isn't part of being a black belt teaching? Wouldn't it be deceiving a student to conceal part of the art from them just because it might not meet your personal tastes/criteria? 

Gnarlie


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## skribs (May 21, 2014)

> I'd say that if these people are actively training, but do not know the lower belt material, that is more than setting an example. It's absolutely reprehensible. If you don't do something for a while, you'll forget it. OK, that's just being human. But if you're actively training and do not know the material you already had to perform for your rank, then maybe you should ask yourself if you actually deserve that rank.


 
In defense of the black belts I mentioned, we do the Kibon forms for the first 4 belts in my school and Palgwe forms after that.  So they probably hadn&#8217;t practiced the Kibon forms in the past 5 years.  On their forms, they knew what they were doing.  They are basically the advanced students, not instructors, so I don&#8217;t expect them to remember the form.  Although I remember all testing requirements so I can help people if they ask.



> We have a 62 year old 10th geup with a fake knee, a 70 year old 3rd geup with a pacemaker and a 60 year old 1st geup with 2 titanium thoracic vertebrae. They all spar. No, none of them are going to compete against a 20 year old, but they spar. There are very very few medical conditions (actually, I can't think of any...) that would allow a person to train without allowing them to spar.


 
When I said &#8220;spar&#8221; I meant full contact.  My mistake.



> The forms are only a prime consideration within the system that awarded the rank. If you learn the Chang Hon forms and then come to our Moo Duk Kwan school, you're not going to know the forms. On the other hand, if you're a competent black belt, you ought to be able to learn forms quite quickly. When I decided to add a KKW Dan rank, it took me about a month to learn the taegeuk forms.


 
Yes, but &#8220;I&#8217;m used to a different set of forms&#8221; is different from &#8220;I&#8217;ve forgotten the forms.&#8221;

---

The point I was making about the prices is that how often you test isn&#8217;t what makes the difference.  It&#8217;s what the prices are.  A better example would be:

If tests are all $50, then&#8230;
Tuition $50, test every month
Tuition $75, test every 2 months
Tuition $85, test every 4 months

It doesn&#8217;t matter how often you test, they&#8217;ll get their money one way or another


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## Dirty Dog (May 21, 2014)

skribs said:


> In defense of the black belts I mentioned, we do the Kibon forms for the first 4 belts in my school and Palgwe forms after that.  So they probably hadnt practiced the Kibon forms in the past 5 years.  On their forms, they knew what they were doing.  They are basically the advanced students, not instructors, so I dont expect them to remember the form.  Although I remember all testing requirements so I can help people if they ask.



That's the problem. The Kibon forms *are* "their forms". 
Our required curriculum includes 6 Kicho and 8 Palgwae forms, with the taegeuks being an option for those who want KKW Dan rank instead of or in addition to MDK Dan rank. You don't learn a form, take a test and forget it.


Each of the gwae (trigrams) is linked to a form (in both the palgwae and taegeuk systems), starting with Keon and ending with Gon. They are traditionally shown arranged in a circle, not in order, but paired with their opposite (Keon = Heaven and Gon = Earth). Why a circle? Because what you learn today *should* be applied to what you've learned before. This constant return to the beginning allows us to refine and enhance what we've practiced before. And in doing so, we find that our understanding of those techniques improves. The people you are describing are obviously not doing this. You *should* expect them to know every bit of the curriculum required to earn whatever belt they're wearing. More importantly, your instructors should expect them to know that material. And most important of all, *they* should expect themselves to know the material.


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## skribs (May 21, 2014)

Considering the amount of material we cover, I'm going to respectfully disagree that every student needs to remember every form on the way up.  I will agree that if you are an instructor you should have the full set.


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## Rumy73 (May 25, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> A black belt doesn't have to know everything, but they should acknowledge what they don't know and try to fill those gaps. Deliberately disregarding aspects of the art goes against the black belt self improvement mentality. If you 'throw away' parts of the syllabus because you don't like them, you might be a black belt in something, but I'm not sure it's Taekwondo. I also have to wonder whether you would teach the aspects you don't like. Isn't part of being a black belt teaching? Wouldn't it be deceiving a student to conceal part of the art from them just because it might not meet your personal tastes/criteria?
> 
> Gnarlie



I no longer go to a dojang. Price gouging in my area was the main reason. When I did, I actively sparred and practiced forms. However, I increasingly became selective about who I would spar with. If someone was an unknown quantity, I would politely pass. The reason being, I had enough experiences with guys out to prove something or guys who tried to hurt others. Full contact sparring, to me, should be controlled and respectful. I did the forms for many years, after my last contract ended, I never looked back at them. I go to a regular gym now. I use bits of all that I learned. I happily pay about $150 bucks a year to workout versus the thousands I was forking out.


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## Gnarlie (May 25, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> I no longer go to a dojang. Price gouging in my area was the main reason. When I did, I actively sparred and practiced forms. However, I increasingly became selective about who I would spar with. If someone was an unknown quantity, I would politely pass. The reason being, I had enough experiences with guys out to prove something or guys who tried to hurt others. Full contact sparring, to me, should be controlled and respectful. I did the forms for many years, after my last contract ended, I never looked back at them. I go to a regular gym now. I use bits of all that I learned. I happily pay about $150 bucks a year to workout versus the thousands I was forking out.



So are you still trying to improve your skills, from a martial perspective? Or have you plateau'd? I agree with you on the sparring point, by the way. 

Gnarlie


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## Rumy73 (May 25, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> So are you still trying to improve your skills, from a martial perspective? Or have you plateau'd? I agree with you on the sparring point, by the way.
> 
> Gnarlie



I work on the basics all the time. I have left all the spinning and most jump kicks behind. I stay very flexible and strong. I can kick at head level easily. I spend time looking at my footwork, learning to move the least amount possible while avoiding a threat. Thereby, keeping myself in range to counter. I develop combinations, work on flow. Things like that.


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