# suffering



## someguy (Feb 16, 2004)

Heres a thought on suffering...
Suffering is like darkness.  With out darkness can you see?
With out cool is there hot?  Is there pleasure with out pain.
Atleast for the mortal world.
Critisize freely
Now if you will excuse me my mind wants to exploded after a philosophy test.


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## markulous (Mar 12, 2004)

It's like that movie Vanilla Sky.  I think it was Jason Lee that kept saying "Without the sour there wouldn't be the sweet."  I without a doubt a agree with you.  If someone doesn't suffer or go through bad times they just won't appreciate the good things.


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## Bushigokoro9 (Mar 21, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Heres a thought on suffering...
> Suffering is like darkness.  With out darkness can you see?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bushigokoro9 (Mar 23, 2004)

I did not come up with this following line of thought or theory but I deepely believe in it.  I will parphase the following from the orginator (as best as I believe).  Takamatsu Sensei:

".........suffering, sorrow, pain, resentment.  These are natural qualities to be encountered in life.  A chance in given by nature to cultivate or sharpen the immoveable spirit..........."





Correction

Sorry guys.  I wanted to correct my own post.  The orginal ideal that I can trace back was  to Toda Sensei.  Takamatsu's teacher.  Soke Masaaki Hatsumi has also revised it as well.  The Pharaphrased qoute listed above is  close to what Soke Masaaki Hatsumi stated in 1988.  I am sure that the orginator of this goes far back beyond Toda Sensei.


Best Regards,
Bushigokoro


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## loki09789 (Mar 24, 2004)

It is necessary to reach a mental state of 'agitation' for a person to be open to learning/seek knowledge.

It is necessary for your body to achieve a certain level of breakdown in order for it to rebuild and become stronger/fitter.

It is necessary for humans to experience the reality, directly or vicariously(watching other's experiences) in order to achieve a deeper more concrete understanding of a topic that they might hear/read/study academically a million times.

Suffering is there.  It is part of the human experience.  As humans, development/evolution can only happen under stress - either voluntary or induced - individually, socially, physiologically and as a whole race.

I am watching a Discovery TIMES story about North Korea and it's treatment of orphaned children - or the lack of treatment.  Absolutely horrible.  I feel hypocritical typing about suffering when there are children being sexually abused, attacked by guard dogs for entertainment and starved in the streets.

At this individual/human level of perception - that scale of suffering seems horrible/monstrous.  But, in the larger scheme of things, over the course of total time, where will that suffering measure up?


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## someguy (Mar 24, 2004)

I guess abit of suffering is needed but too much is evil.


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## Bushigokoro9 (Mar 24, 2004)

"I guess abit of suffering is needed but too much is evil"



Yeah but Is suffering the result of evil?  What is evil?

Define evil?  We all know it when we see it, don't we?  If the universe is perfect then evil has it's place to, right?  If the universe is not perfect well there is evil?  

Best Regards,
Bushigokoro


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## someguy (Mar 25, 2004)

Evil is a strange thing isn't it.  One persons evil is another ones good.
So as to define Evil well I can't really do that.   
Anybody care to try to go for a definition of evil?


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## loki09789 (Mar 25, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Evil is a strange thing isn't it.  One persons evil is another ones good.
> So as to define Evil well I can't really do that.
> Anybody care to try to go for a definition of evil?



Not my def.s but found in Dictionary.com

e·vil    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est 
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant. 
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet. 
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens. 
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation. 
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper. 


I think the easiest to apply to this discussion - so we avoid cultural specific morals - would be: charcterized by anger or spite.  I would also add greed, personal gain with no consideration for the consequences.  This would work for the impacts on people, resources,... but that is only the one I keyed in on.  Others may decide differently.

And, no evil is not the required for suffering.  Back to intent, evil is a definition of motivation IMO, suffering can happen by circumstance (floods, hurricanes...) or the willing denial of comfort (personal sacrifice, hard training, working overtime for the extra income/benefit of the company or group...)

Again, suffering is a state of existence.  The rest is context.


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## Flatlander (May 28, 2004)

Suffering can also be due to individual perception, i.e: "Aww! I really wanted to buy those new shoes, but I have to pay the cable bill!  That sucks!"

But do I need the shoes to be happy?

In fact, many would equate not being entirely satisfied or comfortable with suffering...so many require instant gratification.

So many have forgotten to enjoy the experience, any experience.


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## markulous (May 28, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Evil is a strange thing isn't it.  One persons evil is another ones good.
> So as to define Evil well I can't really do that.
> Anybody care to try to go for a definition of evil?



Loki did about the best job on a definition of evil that you can get.  Good and evil are all based are perception.


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## Tgace (May 28, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Evil is a strange thing isn't it. One persons evil is another ones good.
> So as to define Evil well I can't really do that.
> Anybody care to try to go for a definition of evil?


I dont know if thats an absolute...look at Nazi Germany, did they really think the concentration camps were good? If so than why did they try to cover them up as the war wound down? If you do something because you know you can get away with it, does that mean you think its "good"?


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## psi_radar (May 29, 2004)

We've recently been trying to sell our house and buy a new one. Multiple contracts have ensued, some deals fall through, others come up, I probably have suffered 12 sleepless nights and 4 hangovers over this. One particularly bad evening, I got off the phone with the realtor, and exhausted, just took the time to look around. Chinook winds rode off the Rockies and stirred the new leaves on the trees violently, but the gusts were isolated, so the sounds and movement were sometimes far away and at others, close. The leaves sparkled in the bright sunshine, and I lost myself in the beauty. That time was payment for my suffering.


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## TigerWoman (Jun 7, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> We've recently been trying to sell our house and buy a new one. Multiple contracts have ensued, some deals fall through, others come up, I probably have suffered 12 sleepless nights and 4 hangovers over this. One particularly bad evening, I got off the phone with the realtor, and exhausted, just took the time to look around. Chinook winds rode off the Rockies and stirred the new leaves on the trees violently, but the gusts were isolated, so the sounds and movement were sometimes far away and at others, close. The leaves sparkled in the bright sunshine, and I lost myself in the beauty. That time was payment for my suffering.



Patience.  Patience is long-suffering. Long-suffering or short suffering from bad traffic, it still needs patience. Patience is needed because of your children, long-suffering because of the inevitable problems (and joys) of small children or adolescents. Patience is needed with your parents because they are old and are due respect as well. Patience is needed with people who don't understand you or you them. Patience is needed with people who continually slight you or think little of you before acting or thinking.  Patience is needed to not feel offended or look for offense. Patience is needed with people who say they have humility yet can never say they are wrong or sorry. Patience is needed with life situations that "things" will get worked out. And lastly, patience is needed with yourself, after all you are only human and imperfect. Patience is needed when you need to practice a kick for a break over and over and you can't get it done.

I, for one, will pray to God that there are not so many reasons for my patience - because lately I have been weary. There is saying in the Bible, God doesn't give you any more than you can bear. His BB test. :uhyeah:


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## Han-Mi (Jun 7, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Suffering can also be due to individual perception, i.e: "Aww! I really wanted to buy those new shoes, but I have to pay the cable bill! That sucks!"
> 
> But do I need the shoes to be happy?
> 
> ...


I completely agree.
Take every experience, file it, remember it later, you will look back on it and be grateful one day when you are more enlightened about your life. As for suffering and evil, evil is a perception and suffering is a choice(however unconscious it may be)


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## Adept (Nov 14, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Heres a thought on suffering...
> Suffering is like darkness.  With out darkness can you see?


 Yes.



> With out cool is there hot?  Is there pleasure with out pain.


 Yes.

 Without the one, the other will still exist. In fact, it will be all that exists. You want to see if there is day without night? Head to antarctica for six months. Can there be pleasure without pain? Absolutely.

 What you mean to say is that in order to fully appreciate the one, you must have experience of the other. One cannot appreciate a beautiful sunrise if you have never been in the dark, nor can one appreciate a warm drink if you have never been cold.

 But that doesnt mean you could, or should experience the bad thing to make your experience of the good thing more heightened. Take a dog, for example. He has always lived his life in his kennel, sheltered from the elements, always had food, care and love everyday. Should we then leave him in the rain with no food, and beat him for a week so that he might better appreciate the way he lives?

 No.

 People might not be able to fully appreciate the highs in their lives without lows to compare them to, but sometimes not having the lows is worth it.


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## shesulsa (Nov 15, 2004)

Perhaps we could explore the context of "appreciation" as opposed to "suffering."

 What does it mean to "appreciate the experience?"  If you look at the sunrise and admire it's esthetic qualities, have you appreciated it?  Or does the term "truly appreciate" involve recognizing the metaphorical comparisons to sunrise, the surrender of the moment to watch a happening we will never be able to control, the gratefulness of the repeated splendor despite our most terrible foibles and greatest embarrassments?

 Does one outweigh the other?  Do we truly appreciate someone until we can no longer be with them?

 If we can have appreciation without suffering, then why don't we?  How does one learn without delving into the purpose of suffering and the importance of appreciation?

 Don't we suffer a tad when we examine others' sufferings?  Isn't this how we learn the lessons of appreciation aside from learning the lessons of suffering?

 So, if we have no comparison - what importance lies upon suffering and appreciation?

 ... ooooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm ...


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