# Nunchucks in California for USAT Jr Olympics?



## TaekwondoDad (Mar 21, 2011)

My 6 year old daughter competed last weekend at the USAT/OMAC Ohio State and Regional Championships and qualified for the USAT Junior Olympics in San Jose in June. (Yes, I realize not hard to do when all you have to do is show up and breathe to qualify these days.)  

She competed here in Ohio in the weapons competition with her speed-chucks and would like to do the same in San Jose.  However, I have looked online and it appears nunchucks are illegal in California with an exception for schools that teach martial arts.  Our plan is to fly into San Jose for the USAT event and then drive down to Los Angeles for the ATU National Championship a few days later.  

Can anyone in California tell me if there is a legal way to travel to a competition in California with nunchucks?


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## StudentCarl (Mar 21, 2011)

Interesting question. I emailed USAT and will post their reply.


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## miguksaram (Mar 21, 2011)

TaekwondoDad said:


> My 6 year old daughter competed last weekend at the USAT/OMAC Ohio State and Regional Championships and qualified for the USAT Junior Olympics in San Jose in June. (Yes, I realize not hard to do when all you have to do is show up and breathe to qualify these days.)
> 
> She competed here in Ohio in the weapons competition with her speed-chucks and would like to do the same in San Jose.  However, I have looked online and it appears nunchucks are illegal in California with an exception for schools that teach martial arts.  Our plan is to fly into San Jose for the USAT event and then drive down to Los Angeles for the ATU National Championship a few days later.
> 
> Can anyone in California tell me if there is a legal way to travel to a competition in California with nunchucks?



you should be fine in a martial art competition.  We have students who compete at Compete Nationals in Cali and use nunchaku and have never had a problem.  As long as the chucks are stored in your luggage and not easily accessible while you are traveling between competitions you will be fine.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 21, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> you should be fine in a martial art competition.  We have students who compete at Compete Nationals in Cali and use nunchaku and have never had a problem.  As long as the chucks are stored in your luggage and not easily accessible while you are traveling between competitions you will be fine.



That's the same as UK law and is sensible so I would hope it would be fine.  These laws exist to stop people carrying them around the street and doing serious damage.  If they're at the bottom of a bag, in either a bag that is tied up or locked case (with the key on your keyring) then I'm sure you'll be fine.


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## ATC (Mar 21, 2011)

As long as you weapon is in the bag with your MA gear you should be fine. I have been pulled over before with Tonfa's, Sai's and Chuck's in my bag and had no problems.

The only time I ever had an issue is when I used said weapons on a would-be robber.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 21, 2011)

I would not rely on the responses of people who are not attorneys to dispense legal advice.  I am not an attorney either.  I suggest you consult one.  No one else is qualified to dispense that type of advice, and none of the people who post here (including myself) will step forward to pay your legal bills if you get into trouble.  Just sayin'...

As a practical matter, I doubt you would have trouble, but in my general opinion, I'd sooner ship the weapons to myself at the hotel you intend to stay at than put them into checked luggage.  You're not allowed to lock checked luggage anymore unless you use a TSA-approved lock (which they have a key for so they can open and inspect) and you may well find that your child's weapons are confiscated, stolen, or law enforcement notified.

Please note well this story:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...-declines-hear-airport-gun-arrest-appeal.html

Despite what 'common sense' might say, the man did not prevail in court.  Period.  The law considers 'dangerous weapons' in the same class as firearms in some states, so the fact that we're talking about nunchaku here and not firearms is of little consequence.

Personally, I'd want a letter, in writing, from the city attorney of the town I was visiting and I'd carry it with me.  Period.


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## miguksaram (Mar 21, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I would not rely on the responses of people who are not attorneys to dispense legal advice.  I am not an attorney either.  I suggest you consult one.  No one else is qualified to dispense that type of advice, and none of the people who post here (including myself) will step forward to pay your legal bills if you get into trouble.  Just sayin'...
> 
> As a practical matter, I doubt you would have trouble, but in my general opinion, I'd sooner ship the weapons to myself at the hotel you intend to stay at than put them into checked luggage.  You're not allowed to lock checked luggage anymore unless you use a TSA-approved lock (which they have a key for so they can open and inspect) and you may well find that your child's weapons are confiscated, stolen, or law enforcement notified.
> 
> ...


While I agree that you should never take legal advice from anyone who is not an attorney, the fact of the matter is that if there were problems with people having them at tournaments, these tournaments would have been shut down years ago or the tournament director would have (at least should have) put on their flyer no nunchaku allowed.  

As a person who has helped promote martial art tournaments in Illinois, where the law pertaining to nunchaku are the same as that in California, we are able to posses the weapons as a legal business that teaches self defense.  This extends to any events which our school hosts such as tournaments or demos.  Common sense has to prevail in that you are not walking down the street to a tournament swinging your nunchaku around like an idiot.

Some people have shipped their weapons to and from the hotel.  Mostly they have been swords, bo's or other weapons that are could be easily damaged in flights.  The drawback is that it will cost you some $$$ and there is not guarantee that they will not be damaged or lost.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 21, 2011)

I do not know of any legal way to have illegal weapons in the state of California.
that being said if you put the weapons in a storage bag that you can lock and have in your trunk and only take it out of the trunk to take in to compete and then to take into your home(hotel) and then back on the plane you will probably not run into troubles unless you do something else.
I think that having them for "artistic" reasons would probably be enough for most police officers to not worry about it, but you are definitely placing yourself at the mercy of the police officers good will, or just plain getting away with having them.



> CALIFORNIA CODES
> PENAL CODE
> SECTION 12020-12040
> 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
> ...


 
so legally if you are not in a school, or transporting that nunchaku to a school in order to be sold then you are probably not in the right side of the law.

of course for how long?.... who knows......


> In New York, attorney Jim Maloney has brought a federal constitutional challenge to the statutes that criminalize simple in-home possession of nunchaku for peaceful use in martial-arts practice or legal home defense. As of June 29, 2010, the U.S. Supreme Court has granted a writ of certiorari in favor of Maloney and has sent it back to the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit for "further consideration".


we will see....

also to the poster above...
when did common sense ever matter in laws? especially in California, and especially when they might able to get some money out of you?... lol


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 21, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> While I agree that you should never take legal advice from anyone who is not an attorney, the fact of the matter is that if there were problems with people having them at tournaments, these tournaments would have been shut down years ago or the tournament director would have (at least should have) put on their flyer no nunchaku allowed.



The OP was asking about taking them on the plane.  The tournament officials have no control over that.

_"Our plan is to fly into San Jose for the USAT event and then drive down  to Los Angeles for the ATU National Championship a few days later.  _

_ Can anyone in California tell me if there is a legal way to travel to a competition in California with nunchucks?"_​


> As a person who has helped promote martial art tournaments in Illinois, where the law pertaining to nunchaku are the same as that in California, we are able to posses the weapons as a legal business that teaches self defense.  This extends to any events which our school hosts such as tournaments or demos.  Common sense has to prevail in that you are not walking down the street to a tournament swinging your nunchaku around like an idiot.



Common sense does not have to prevail, and often doesn't.  That's just my opinion.  But like your opinion, neither mine nor yours holds any water in court.  In the end, it's up to cops, judges, and juries what is _'common sense'_ and what isn't.  I would not ask someone to risk arrest based on what I thought was a pretty good idea or something that had never gotten me in trouble before.



> Some people have shipped their weapons to and from the hotel.  Mostly they have been swords, bo's or other weapons that are could be easily damaged in flights.  The drawback is that it will cost you some $$$ and there is not guarantee that they will not be damaged or lost.



My experience with putting valuable things in unlocked checked luggage is that theft is rather distressingly common.

The TSA allows martial arts weapons to be transported as checked luggage.  That does not mean it will arrive still inside the bag, or that the state of California will not decide to enforce its laws regarding martial arts weapon possession when you arrive:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm#8

I found this link regarding the California law on nunchaku:

http://www.uplandmacenter.com/nunchakulaw.html

I see an exemption for possessing nunchaku IN THE SCHOOL where it is taught.  Nothing at all about transportation of them, but a clear restriction on importation.  I would not place bets on California utilizing common sense with regard to this.


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## TaekwondoDad (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you for all the responses.  

When I read the California law, it appeared to me that individuals cannot even own a set of nunchucks and transport them to and from their school, let alone tournaments.  The exceptions appear to allow them to be sold to a school and kept in a school, nothing more.

I doubt her kamas would receive a much better welcome and can't see her bo staff surviving the flight.  

This may best be a learning experience.  

I noted that the National Qualifiers do not appear to have weapons competition, which is perfect for Buffalo since NY doesn't even allow an exception for schools.

Perhaps the "larger" or "major" martial art organizations should refuse to hold tournaments in states that outlaw part of their arts.  Of course with the large markets in NY and CA and the population of martial artists this would never happen.


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## miguksaram (Mar 23, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The OP was asking about taking them on the plane.  The tournament officials have no control over that.
> _"Our plan is to fly into San Jose for the USAT event and then drive down  to Los Angeles for the ATU National Championship a few days later.  _
> 
> _ Can anyone in California tell me if there is a legal way to travel to a competition in California with nunchucks?"_​Common sense does not have to prevail, and often doesn't.  That's just my opinion.  But like your opinion, neither mine nor yours holds any water in court.  In the end, it's up to cops, judges, and juries what is _'common sense'_ and what isn't.  I would not ask someone to risk arrest based on what I thought was a pretty good idea or something that had never gotten me in trouble before.
> ...



If the big question is the plane, then just call and see their rules.  You will have to put them as check in.  Our team has done this time and time again with nunchaku, swords, bo, tonfa, etc.  You just need to call the airline for their policy on it.

Think what you want overall but I am telling you that this is how it is and has been for many years.  Our team has been to California numerous times for open martial art tournaments and we have never had a problem.  I guess our team along with 100's of other out of state competitors have just been lucky.

TKD-dad, honestly don't sweat it.  Call the airline ask about their policy.  Once in California just keep them packed away until going to the tournament.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Once in California just keep them packed away until going to the tournament.



Are you an attorney licensed to practice in California?

If he gets arrested, will you pay his legal bills?

That's why I don't think it's a good idea to give or take legal advice over the internet.


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## miguksaram (Mar 23, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Are you an attorney licensed to practice in California?
> 
> If he gets arrested, will you pay his legal bills?
> 
> That's why I don't think it's a good idea to give or take legal advice over the internet.




Whatever...1000's of people in go to California each year to do tournaments which involve weapon divisions and arrests are not made outside of the rare few who are just idiots doing something stupid.  

I'm telling you from experience, not pulling the answer out of my ***.  Not giving him legal advice. Giving him advice based on my experience in being there.  Not an opinion, but actual first hand experience of what I have witnessed.  Do you do weapon forms?   Have you competed in the state of California  in a weapons division?  Do you even compete for that matter?  Just telling him the way things are and have been for some time now.

So if it is illegal to have tournaments in California in which people from out of state could participate with nunchaku, then the CPD should start standing outside the door to each event, because they could make a killing and clean up their debt writing out the citations.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Whatever...1000's of people in go to California each year to do tournaments which involve weapon divisions and arrests are not made outside of the rare few who are just idiots doing something stupid.
> 
> I'm telling you from experience, not pulling the answer out of my ***.  Not giving him legal advice. Giving him advice based on my experience in being there.  Not an opinion, but actual first hand experience of what I have witnessed.  Do you do weapon forms?   Have you competed in the state of California  in a weapons division?  Do you even compete for that matter?  Just telling him the way things are and have been for some time now.
> 
> So if it is illegal to have tournaments in California in which people from out of state could participate with nunchaku, then the CPD should start standing outside the door to each event, because they could make a killing and clean up their debt writing out the citations.



It is not illegal to have tournaments in California.  It is illegal to possess, or to import, nunchaku in California, to the extent that I can determine.



> http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php
> 
> 12020. (a) Any person in this state who  does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail  not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
> 
> (1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, * imports into the state*, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale,  or who gives, lends, or *possesses* any cane gun or wallet gun, any  undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable  as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which  contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or  carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger  activator, *any nunchaku*, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled  rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any  zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case  knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing  pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica  handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a  blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.


That clear enough for you?

There are exemptions:



> (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
> ...
> (3) The possession of a nunchaku on the  premises of a school which holds a regulatory or business license and  teaches the arts of self-defense.
> (4)  The manufacture of a nunchaku for sale to, or the sale of a nunchaku to,  a school which holds a regulatory or business license and teaches the  arts of self-defense.


What you are doing is giving legal advice for the O/P to break the law, based on your experience that he will probably get away with it.

I think giving or taking legal advice is unwise, and my opinion is that it is to be avoided.

You can say 'whatever' as much as you like; the fact remains that it is illegal in California and if the O/P takes your advice and DOES end up in trouble, you're not going to step up and pay his legal bills, are you?


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## Tony49 (Mar 23, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It is not illegal to have tournaments in California.  It is illegal to possess, or to import, nunchaku in California, to the extent that I can determine.
> 
> That clear enough for you?
> 
> ...



Bill is right just because they don't enforce the law doesn't mean it is okay to break it.

By the way, the two tournaments you mention do they even have a weapons form division?


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## mango.man (Mar 23, 2011)

I find people that post on martial arts message boards for legal and medical advice to be a strange bunch.

"I was at practice last night and I kicked and I heard a loud pop and now I can't put any pressure on my right foot.  What should I do?"

Is just a bad as

"I am going to take a weapon into a state where it is a felony to possess such a weapon outside of a martial arts school.  Do you think I might get in trouble?"

Well chances are you are not going to get caught with said weapon, unless you give a cop a reason to stop you and search your car etc.  Of course it is always possible that someone could do something stupid in a car similar to yours, prompting the police to pull you over and search your car thinking you are that other suspect.  Then when they find the your illegal weapon, regardless of if you are the suspect they were looking for, you get to go to jail on a felony.

As for whomever it was that said that the law is not enforced.  Well I have had the pleasure of enforcing this exact law on an occasion or two, back in my law enforcement days oh so many years ago.


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## miguksaram (Mar 23, 2011)

mango.man said:


> As for whomever it was that said that the law is not enforced.  Well I have had the pleasure of enforcing this exact law on an occasion or two, back in my law enforcement days oh so many years ago.


Never said that the law was not enforced. What I did say was that it is very unlikely that it will be enforced at a tournament.  BTW...did you bust a lot of kids at a tournament or on the street?


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## Tony49 (Mar 23, 2011)

mango.man said:


> I find people that post on martial arts message boards for legal and medical advice to be a strange bunch.
> 
> "I was at practice last night and I kicked and I heard a loud pop and now I can't put any pressure on my right foot.  What should I do?"
> 
> ...



You could always take them apart and have two individual sticks and then at the tournament put them back together. However, you are still probably breaking the law since it is not a martial art school.


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## mango.man (Mar 23, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Never said that the law was not enforced. What I did say was that it is very unlikely that it will be enforced at a tournament.  BTW...did you bust a lot of kids at a tournament or on the street?



At the tournament venue, you are probably right.  Much like shooting a gun at a firing range would not get you into trouble as the cops aren't going to kick in any doors and start rounding people up.

However getting to and from the tournament / firing range is another story.  You get stopped by a cop and he has PC to search your car and he finds the weapon under the drivers seat (be it the nunchaku or a gun) and you are busted likely no matter how many times you plead I was on my way to a tournament / firing range and I am from out of state and didn't know.


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## jks9199 (Mar 23, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Whatever...1000's of people in go to California each year to do tournaments which involve weapon divisions and arrests are not made outside of the rare few who are just idiots doing something stupid.
> 
> I'm telling you from experience, not pulling the answer out of my ***.  Not giving him legal advice. Giving him advice based on my experience in being there.  Not an opinion, but actual first hand experience of what I have witnessed.  Do you do weapon forms?   Have you competed in the state of California  in a weapons division?  Do you even compete for that matter?  Just telling him the way things are and have been for some time now.
> 
> So if it is illegal to have tournaments in California in which people from out of state could participate with nunchaku, then the CPD should start standing outside the door to each event, because they could make a killing and clean up their debt writing out the citations.


Bill's got a valid point.  Let's look at the issue another way.

From lots of people's experience, you can drive about 10 mph over the limit in most places and not be stopped or ticketed.  That's not the same as saying it's legal -- and if you do get stopped and ticketed, all that experience won't get you out of the fine.  

I'm neither a lawyer nor a CA LEO.  I don't know what the law says or what the realities of the tournament scene there is.  I will tell you that, if I wanted to, I could absolutely arrest you for carrying a pair of nunchaku in a bag on your person, in Virginia.  Would I unless you're being really stupid, if you're on the way to a tournament or class?  No.  But that is NOT one of the exceptions listed in the code.

That's the danger of getting legal guidance over the internet.  The OP would probably be well advised to contact law enforcement in California; they can probably give some solid guidance or refer him to a reliable source of guidance.


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## miguksaram (Mar 24, 2011)

mango.man said:


> However getting to and from the tournament / firing range is another story.  You get stopped by a cop and he has PC to search your car and he finds the weapon under the drivers seat (be it the nunchaku or a gun) and you are busted likely no matter how many times you plead I was on my way to a tournament / firing range and I am from out of state and didn't know.



I agree with you here...which is why in I said it should be stored away in luggage and not right out in the open.  If you are driving with it under your seat it, then that falls under that "You're an idiot" section that I was talking about earlier.


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## miguksaram (Mar 24, 2011)

Just call the tournament director or better yet  call SJPD and just ask.  That is MY ADVICE.  MY EXPERIENCE has been that people going to martial art tournaments and compete in weapon divisions have had no problems with the police as long as they kept their weapon stored away in their luggage or bag while traveling to and from the venue.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 24, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I agree with you here...which is why in I said it should be stored away in luggage and not right out in the open.  If you are driving with it under your seat it, then that falls under that "You're an idiot" section that I was talking about earlier.



If you're within 100 miles of an international border, the ICE (formerly Border Patrol) or US Customs can stop and search your vehicle, inside and out, without a warrant. 2/3 of the US population lives within 100 miles of an international border.

As well, very often the penalties are stiffer for concealed prohibited weapons if they are discovered than if they had been in the open.

From what I can tell, you're dispensing advice on how to get away with breaking the law, knowing full well what the law is.  In my humble opinion, that's not a very good idea at all.

Not only is it generally a bad idea to give legal advice on the internet, it's even worse to give bad legal advice.  Again, IMHO.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 24, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> ...better yet  call SJPD and just ask.



There you go!  How hard was that?  I prefer getting such opinions in writing, which is why I suggested writing a letter to the city attorney and ask for an opinion in writing.  Oral statements aren't worth the paper they're not printed on.


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## miguksaram (Mar 24, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you're within 100 miles of an international border, the ICE (formerly Border Patrol) or US Customs can stop and search your vehicle, inside and out, without a warrant. 2/3 of the US population lives within 100 miles of an international border.
> 
> As well, very often the penalties are stiffer for concealed prohibited weapons if they are discovered than if they had been in the open.
> 
> ...



So the big question is this, how are all these big name national competitions such as Compete, Long Beach International, Bushido Open and SuperGrands all of which attract numerous of competitors from all over the US able to go one with weapon divisions for all these years?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 24, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> So the big question is this, how are all these big name national competitions such as Compete, Long Beach International, Bushido Open and SuperGrands all of which attract numerous of competitors from all over the US able to go one with weapon divisions for all these years?



That's not the 'big question'. I think you're a little unclear on the concept.  I never said that the law was actively or vigorously enforced.  In fact, I said I'm sure it isn't.  So I have no doubt that such competitions get away with apparently breaking the law.

What I said was that it is a bad idea to offer or accept legal advice on the internet from someone who a) isn't an attorney and b) isn't going to step up and pay your legal bills if you take his *bad* advice and end up in trouble.

You seem not to be able to differentiate between a law not being enforced and a law not existing.  Just because the law on nunchaku possession appears not be aggressively enforced, that does not mean it is therefore legal.  A person can still be arrested for it.

As I said before - you're not going to step up and pay someone's legal bills if they take your advice and end up in trouble, are you?  If not, then perhaps dispensing such advice is not the wisest thing you could do.  Opinions are one thing; advice is something different.


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

TaekwondoDad said:


> She competed here in Ohio in the weapons competition with her speed-chucks and would like to do the same in San Jose.  However, I have looked online and it appears nunchucks are illegal in California with an exception for schools that teach martial arts.  Our plan is to fly into San Jose for the USAT event and then drive down to Los Angeles for the ATU National Championship a few days later.




Since when has there been weapon divisions at USAT events? That's ridiculous.


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## miguksaram (Mar 24, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That's not the 'big question'. I think you're a little unclear on the concept.  I never said that the law was actively or vigorously enforced.  In fact, I said I'm sure it isn't.  So I have no doubt that such competitions get away with apparently breaking the law.
> 
> What I said was that it is a bad idea to offer or accept legal advice on the internet from someone who a) isn't an attorney and b) isn't going to step up and pay your legal bills if you take his *bad* advice and end up in trouble.



And at no time did I give him legal advice.  I did give him an opinion based on my experience of going to and participating in tournaments in California.



> You seem not to be able to differentiate between a law not being enforced and a law not existing.  Just because the law on nunchaku possession appears not be aggressively enforced, that does not mean it is therefore legal.  A person can still be arrested for it.



Never said they could not be arrested for it or never said it was legal to do so. Never said that this law doesn't pertain to him because he is in a tournament.  What I did say is he should be fine as long as he keeps them in his luggage or bag while going to or from the venue.  Apparently it is aggressively enforced as MM said that he has busted people on the street who had them.  So at no time was I giving legal advice.



> As I said before - you're not going to step up and pay someone's legal bills if they take your advice and end up in trouble, are you?  If not, then perhaps dispensing such advice is not the wisest thing you could do.  Opinions are one thing; advice is something different.



If you go to a restaurant and you had no problems with it and then  someone asked you hey is it any good and you tell them I had not  problems with it so go try it.  They then have the worse food and  service ever...are you going to pay their food bill?  Even better they have an allergic reaction to some ingredient that landed in their food and end up in the hospital...Are you paying their medical bill?  After all they  tried it based on your advice.

Or do do you just say...I am not going  to give you my opinion based on my experience because I am not a  licensed chef or food critic and as such do not want to be responsible for any possible  bad results that may occur once you step into the restaurant.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 24, 2011)

Interesting that the statute lists nunchaku and shuriken specifically.  I can take you on a walking tour of San Francisco Chinatown and show you numerous shops that openly sell nunchaku and shuriken.  Some of the chucks are foam padded, others are solid wood.  The shuriken are steel and sharp.  These are openly displayed in the glass cases for all to see.

I've always wondered how they got around that one, or if the cops just look the other way because they've got bigger fish to fry.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 24, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting that the statute lists nunchaku and shuriken specifically.  I can take you on a walking tour of San Francisco Chinatown and show you numerous shops that openly sell nunchaku and shuriken.  Some of the chucks are foam padded, others are solid wood.  The shuriken are steel and sharp.  These are openly displayed in the glass cases for all to see.
> 
> I've always wondered how they got around that one, or if the cops just look the other way because they've got bigger fish to fry.



I'm just taking a guess here...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php



> (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
> (4) The manufacture of a nunchaku for sale to,  or the sale of a nunchaku to, a school which holds a regulatory or  business license and teaches the arts of self-defense.



Officer:  Excuse me, it appears you are selling nunchaku in prohibition of the 2008 Dangerous Weapons Control Law.

Shopowner: Oh, no officer.  These are for sale only to a school which holds a regulatory or business license and teaches the arts of self-defense.  I would not sell them to anyone else.

Officer:  Er, OK then.  See that you don't.

Honestly, I also suspect that such things are simply used for selective enforcement.  As you say, the cop's got bigger fish to fry, and he frankly doesn't care.  I mean, come on, in San Francisco, you can see public acts of sex on the streets in the summer time, and hookers are so common that they only get upset about the 12-year-old hookers and then only sometimes.  You can buy bongs anywhere, but occasionally businesses get raided for selling them and somebody goes to jail. However, if the cop needs or wants to bust the guy, and he's got nunchaku or stars or bongs or whatever, then that's his PC for whatever he needs to do, including a charge to pin on him if he can't find anything else.

I'm just glad I'm in Michigan.  I don't use stars or nunchaku in my training - we use bo staffs and sai.  But sensei recommends getting comfortable with sai by going running with them, practicing opening and closing them as you run.  Liable to attract some attention; good thing they are legal to run around with in your hands.


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## mango.man (Mar 24, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting that the statute lists nunchaku and shuriken specifically.  I can take you on a walking tour of San Francisco Chinatown and show you numerous shops that openly sell nunchaku and shuriken.  Some of the chucks are foam padded, others are solid wood.  The shuriken are steel and sharp.  These are openly displayed in the glass cases for all to see.
> 
> I've always wondered how they got around that one, or if the cops just look the other way because they've got bigger fish to fry.



SF is a sanctuary city in California which pertains to their enforcement of statutes against illegal aliens mostly but it also lends itself to the point that they are quite loose about enforcing many many laws.  That may also have something to do with it.


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## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2011)

Or somebody works to set up a waiver for those traveling to and from the tournament, and for the tournaments.  For that matter -- I could see a tournament falling under the description of a licensed self-defense class.

There is undoubtedly some process; after all several of those illegal weapons show up in movies quite routinely.


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## miguksaram (Mar 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm just glad I'm in Michigan.  I don't use stars or nunchaku in my training - we use bo staffs and sai.  But sensei recommends getting comfortable with sai by going running with them, practicing opening and closing them as you run.  Liable to attract some attention; good thing they are legal to run around with in your hands.


Since your Sensei gave you training advice, I'll assume his is neither a licensed physical therapist or personal trainer, and you run with those sai, opening and closing them as you run, and you slip and fall and stab yourself or drop them on your feet, which for those who have trained with sai know they are heavy and do some good damage...will you be asking him to pay your medical bills?


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## britt_boo (Mar 25, 2011)

umm.. i competed in the usat/mac ohiostate championships in ohio last week and the only qualifying divsions were wtf poomse and sparring, everything else was open events,i can ask my master about it he might know, im 15 so i dont really know the law and that an interesting question
http://oh.usat-mac.us/event-registration/2011-usat-oh-and-goodwill-open-championship/


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## TaekwondoDad (Mar 26, 2011)

You are right,  I mispoke on qualifying in weapons and breaking.  She participated and did well and the divisions are being offered in San Jose, but there is no need to qualify.  Thank you for correcting this.


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## britt_boo (Mar 26, 2011)

oh ok , i was alittle confused. did you you talk to anyone from usat about it?


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## TaekwondoDad (Mar 27, 2011)

No, I have not.  I have tried calling the USAT national office repeatedly about a different issue and 1) only get voicemail and 2) never get a call back.  I have had limited success with emailing them.  (1 response and all other emails ignored).  This is a post for a different thread.  

I have spoken with the law department and the police departmnet in San Jose.  Individuals at both places were very courteous, understanding and helpful.  However, their comments contained the words "shouldn't" and "probably" a bit too many times to be of comfort and as Bill Mattocks has noted several times in this thread, nothing is in writing.


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## terryl965 (Mar 27, 2011)

TaekwondoDad said:


> No, I have not. I have tried calling the USAT national office repeatedly about a different issue and 1) only get voicemail and 2) never get a call back. I have had limited success with emailing them. (1 response and all other emails ignored). This is a post for a different thread.
> 
> I have spoken with the law department and the police departmnet in San Jose. Individuals at both places were very courteous, understanding and helpful. However, their comments contained the words "shouldn't" and "probably" a bit too many times to be of comfort and as Bill Mattocks has noted several times in this thread, nothing is in writing.


 
Taekwondodad get use to that type of communication from USAT, you do not have the right name for them to call you back. Sorry but everyone knows what I mean.


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## britt_boo (Mar 27, 2011)

sorry to hear that, does your daughter know any other weapons that she could maybe use?


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## StudentCarl (Mar 28, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Taekwondodad get use to that type of communication from USAT, you do not have the right name for them to call you back. Sorry but everyone knows what I mean.


 
Just a follow-up to my first reply (post #2 in this thread): it's been a week since I emailed USAT and I've had no reply at all to this question.

Carl


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## ATC (Mar 28, 2011)

Just send an email directly to Mark Kaughmann. He usually emails me back with in a day.
mark.kaufmann@usa-taekwondo.us
Or Bill Kellick @
Bill.Kellick@usa-taekwondo.us

They have both responded to many of my emails to them pretty quickly.


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## terryl965 (Mar 28, 2011)

ATC said:


> Just send an email directly to Mark Kaughmann. He usually emails me back with in a day.
> mark.kaufmann@usa-taekwondo.us
> Or Bill Kellick @
> Bill.Kellick@usa-taekwondo.us
> ...


 
Lucky you with Mark, man you must be special 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, the only one that returns anything for me is Steve Thompson.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 27, 2011)

FYI, by way of illustration on the laws in California:

http://blogs.pe.com/news/digest/2011/04/ontario-beaumont-man-detained.html



> *ONTARIO: Man with illegal weapon detained at airport *
> 
> By PE News on April 26, 2011 10:00 AM
> Here's a tip for easier flying: Don't carry a martial arts weapon that is illegal for sale in California in your carry-on bag.
> A Beaumont man was detained this morning at Ontario International  Airport after scanners searched his bag and found a kubotan  a small,  collapsible baton used in hand-to-hand fighting.



Now I will grant you that a kubaton is not a set of nunchaku.  And this guy did not have the excuse that he was on his way to a martial arts competition.  And furthermore, he did not have it in his checked bag; it was in his carryon.

However, the facts remain.  The nunchaku is illegal in California - and there is no exemption in the law for carrying it in from out-of-state for a competition.  If the O/P had decided to pack his nunchaku in checked or carryon luggage AND it had been discovered, he'd have been arrested.

And those of you who advised him to just do it anyway because you have done it and never been caught, or because you think cops ought to exercise more common sense, YOU would not be offering to pay his legal bills right about now, would you?

I'm going to put this one in the _"I told you so"_ file with your kind indulgence.


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## miguksaram (Apr 27, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And those of you who advised him to just do it anyway because you have done it and never been caught, or because you think cops ought to exercise more common sense, YOU would not be offering to pay his legal bills right about now, would you?



The whole "Are you going to pay his legal bill?" question is just stupid.  

If you advise a student of yours to practice the sai the same way your instructor taught you (to run with them them) will you pay their medical bill if they trip and stab themselves?  If you recommend a restaurant saying they have great food and service based on your experience and the people you recommend it to go there and get horrible food, crappy service you will pay their food bill right?

Come on...according to that line of logic, you should not give opinions based on experience to anyone unless you are certified on that subject to do so.  The bottom line is the opinion that was gave was based on experience.  The words that were used was 'SHOULD be'...not 'definitely will be', not 'no problems at all', no 'get out of jail free card'.    

Allow me to add this to the _I told you so_ section.  Golden Gate Nationals was just held in Santa Clara, California.  It was an open martial arts tournament where people with nunchaku attended to perform in weapons division.  Not one person was arrested on their way to the tournament, at the tournament, or coming back from the tournament for illegal weapons.

Hmmmm...


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 27, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> The whole "Are you going to pay his legal bill?" question is just stupid.
> 
> If you advise a student of yours to practice the sai the same way your instructor taught you (to run with them them) will you pay their medical bill if they trip and stab themselves?  If you recommend a restaurant saying they have great food and service based on your experience and the people you recommend it to go there and get horrible food, crappy service you will pay their food bill right?
> 
> ...



Poor logic.  The fact that people don't often get pulled over for speeding does not make speeding legal, nor does it stop the police from writing tickets for speeding.

And giving advice on using a sai is not the same as advising someone to break the law just because one has noticed that people break that law all the time and don't often get caught.

The fact is, such weapons are against the law in California, and there is no exception to it for taking the weapons to a tournament.  The people you mentioned all broke the law, apparently.  They did not get caught - good for them.  But if they had been caught, they'd have been arrested - I think we can see that pretty clearly as the new story shows just happened at the airport in Ontario, CA.

So giving someone advice to break the law remains a bad idea.  And my suggestion is that if you are not planning to pay for their legal defense, advising them to break the law is a poor idea.

Imagine if the O/P had done as several had advised, and it was HIS name in the news for carrying nunchaku and getting arrested.  Which of those who advised him to do so would speak up and say _"Whoops, my bad, let me get out my checkbook?"_  More like refuse to address the subject and tiptoe quietly away is more like it.

We all get that the law is seldom enforced.  It's still the law, and as we see, when it does get enforced, people get arrested.  That tends to ruin one's weekend, eh?


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## miguksaram (Apr 27, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Poor logic.  The fact that people don't often get pulled over for speeding does not make speeding legal, nor does it stop the police from writing tickets for speeding.
> 
> And giving advice on using a sai is not the same as advising someone to break the law just because one has noticed that people break that law all the time and don't often get caught.



But it is...you are basically telling someone to take a dangerous somewhat heavy weapon with a pointed in and run with it while learning to manipulate it.  This is a health risk...Granted people don't often slip and fall and stab themselves with it but that doesn't make it any less of risk does it?  Are you are certified personal trainer or a physician to be doling out advice on this type of exercise?  



> The fact is, such weapons are against the law in California, and there is no exception to it for taking the weapons to a tournament.  The people you mentioned all broke the law, apparently.  They did not get caught - good for them.  But if they had been caught, they'd have been arrested - I think we can see that pretty clearly as the new story shows just happened at the airport in Ontario, CA.


You are absolutely right.  Funny how this and other big venues tend to slip by the police every year.  You would think with the financial crisis they were having this would be one hell of a money maker in fines.



> So giving someone advice to break the law remains a bad idea.  And my suggestion is that if you are not planning to pay for their legal defense, advising them to break the law is a poor idea.
> 
> Imagine if the O/P had done as several had advised, and it was HIS name in the news for carrying nunchaku and getting arrested.  Which of those who advised him to do so would speak up and say _"Whoops, my bad, let me get out my checkbook?"_  More like refuse to address the subject and tiptoe quietly away is more like it.



And how many times have you offered to pay for someone's dinner when you dished out bad advice on a restaurant? 

I'm guessing you said "really, wow it was great when I tried it.  Sorry"



> We all get that the law is seldom enforced.  It's still the law, and as we see, when it does get enforced, people get arrested.  That tends to ruin one's weekend, eh?


The real question is how did that guy even get on the plane with that in his carry on in the first place?


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