# Is It Possible?



## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

I know....Oh My God, another Kaygee post, right?

Seriously though....I don't want to catch a rash of crap for this, so I would appreciate an honest, open and MATURE discussion or I ask that you take your hateful comments elsewhere.

I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black? 

I know repetition is KEY! But I can do that repetition at home with a punching/kicking bag! Of course there the fact that correction from the master would be absent, but I haven't been corrected for doing a kick incorrectly for years. I am only corrected for minute, subtle mistakes in my forms, and, just like Bruce Lee, I believe that forms are a waste of time when it comes to preparing for a real street battle.

I have been thinking about it, and once you are a black belt, all you are doing are the same moves, but in a different pattern/form/hyung. Outside of that, nothing really changes. It all comes down to how long you have been doing it. But that gets me wondering, is there a difference as far as whether or not you are doing those kicks and techniques over and over again in a dojang paying over $100 a month or at home paying nothing?

Now I know it comes down to the "love" of martial arts. I know there are a lot of purists out there and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you! I mean, anyone that can stick with this stuff for a decade and never question it or cease to enjoy it, my hat goes off to you.

But I got myself into FANTASTIC shape by using a 25 lb kettlebell and a 20lb medicine ball and working out 3-4 times a week for 30-45 minutes. You should see my body now. And it took 60 days. I took martial arts for 2 1/2 years and never looked good. My flexibility has improved, but then again, I can do that at home. Stretching is easy! I can also do all of my kicks and hand techniques and such at home.

So I guess the bottom line is, I went to take martial arts to stay in shape and learn how to defend myself. Now that I pretty much have all of the criteria down
*AND I KNOW THAT I DO NOT HAVE IT DOWN LIKE MOST BLACK BELTS OR MASTERS*
do I not know enough where I can just practice over and over again at home and become efficient at self defense? I would have to say that looking forward, just learning more forms for the sake of attending a school and getting a black belt is not looking very appetizing to me. And I do know that this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but I have to question that if I work hard a few times a week and do what I know already over and over again, outside of learning new forms, what is the difference between attending a school or doing it at home?

Like Bruce Lee said (who never had a black belt himself, but no one can deny his skill) I fear not the man that has done 1,000 kicks 1 time, but the man that has done 1 kick 1,000 times.

I really, really, really hope that we can have an adult conversation about this.
Thank you!


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## Sukerkin (Jan 7, 2013)

Without tuition and subtle correction by contact with others practising the same art, I guarantee your form will drift.  If that's not important to you and you are not going to be claiming to be an expert in any particular style, then there is no problem with doing what you propose.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2013)

well, here's some perspective...I train in a very traditional kung fu method, under a sifu who has been training since the early 1950s.  He's old-school, grew up in Hong Kong and trained with some heavies in our particular system.  We've got a good number of forms in our system (I actually believe that forms are a very useful tool for training some very useful skills, tho they need to be taught properly, understood properly, and practiced properly and that often doesn't happen) and our training tends to place a heavy focus on forms.

Sifu has said for a long time, if you really understand your basics, and if you have only learned the first of our forms, you've got PLENTY to be able to fight with.  If you've learned our 2nd and 3rd forms, then you've got enough for a lifetime of training.  You really do not need the dozen or so other forms that we have, not to mention the dozen or more weapons forms.

But this hinges on what I stated: that you REALLY understand the stuff.  Most people don't, and it takes time and work and correction before you do.  Sifu has also said for a long time, that the forms really just teach us what is possible with the basics, how the basics can be used.  They help us develop our vision for what is possible.  IF you had a vision of what is possible, then the basics are all you need.  But most of us need some help with that, so we learn more of the forms and that helps us develop that vision of what is possible.  Eventually, more forms will not help you.  If you haven't developed the vision with the forms that you've already learned, then learning more forms won't get you there.  If you HAVE developed the vision, then you have no need for more forms.  The tool (the forms) has fulfilled its purpose.

Recently, Sifu said something very interesting.  He said that we train for two reasons: self defense, and health (fitness).  The practice of kung fu is for these two things.  He then said that if you don't want to learn the complete system, you could study for one year with him and learn plenty to be able to fight with, plenty to develop fitness and health, and you would not need to learn any of the forms.  It would be a stripped down version of the system, just focused on the fundamentals.  Because that is what is really important.

So yeah, I think you could do it, provided that you understand your fundamentals and basic techniques very well, that you are doing them correctly and don't need ongoing correction, and that you have a vision of what is possible and what you can do with what you have.  Are you there already?  I dunno.  Might you need some amount of training to get you there?  I dunno.  You need to answer these questions for yourself.

But yeah, it's possible.  You don't need to train under someone for years and years, and you don't need a belt of any color.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2013)

I thought you just found a new place to train and you were happy?  
Honestly if all you want and care about is getting a black belt just go buy one.  

If you consider a blackbelt as the end of learning then there is no point in training at all.  I see a black belt as the beginning of training.  You get a black belt you finally know the basics of the style and now the real learning can start.


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I thought you just found a new place to train and you were happy?
> Honestly if all you want and care about is getting a black belt just go buy one.
> 
> If you consider a blackbelt as the end of learning then there is no point in training at all.  I see a black belt as the beginning of training.  You get a black belt you finally know the basics of the style and now the real learning can start.



LoL! What? The whole point of my post should point to the fact that I don't care about having a black belt!


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> LoL! What? The whole point of my post should point to the fact that I don't care about having a black belt!



I read it as I already know everything there is so why train


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I read it as I already know everything there is so why train



Then you read only what you wanted to read.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I read it as I already know everything there is so why train



that's one way of reading it, but I didn't read it that way.  I read it as, "how much material is really necessary to accomplish the goal of having solid self defense skills?"

Personally I think it's an interesting question.  Martial systems have sometimes grown into huge, cumbersome giants and I sometimes think some of them would be well served to be trimmed down a bit.  The curriculum can become so big as to be unwieldy and ultimately dysfunctional and unuseful.  Sometimes priorities in training can get screwed up and we start to think that "more is better" and I just don't believe that is always the case.

that's my take on it, anyways


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## Guy Preston (Jan 7, 2013)

It all comes down to just 1 thing...

What do YOU want from training?

If you want to practice what you already know, you'll probably get pretty good at it, and be able to do your routine very well after a few weeks. But without someone to push you, you will probably stagnate... After you stagnate things will probably start to slip, and without someone to point this out you may not even notice.

Don't look at it as spending money on a black belt, you are spending money on tuition, coaching, training with others, etc, all valuable parts of the martial arts experience.

For me, it's the whole experience that I love in martial arts - if I did what you are suggesting I could have stopped learning when I was 10 years old and just practiced the Lau Gar kicks and punches I knew - bet I wouldn't be any good at it now though!!!

if you don't want to spend lots, find a cheaper class, I know you're limited where you are, but at least find some buddies you can train with rather than going it alone...

or, as you said the other day you loved the class you attended, why not go to it, give it your all, and just enjoy learning and training, forget the black belt crap, as I said in another of your threads, a black belt is just a reflection of your dedication - it only really has value to you personally, so it's down to you how valuable you think it is...


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> that's one way of reading it, but I didn't read it that way.  I read it as, "how much material is really necessary to accomplish the goal of having solid self defense skills?"
> 
> Personally I think it's an interesting question.  Martial systems have sometimes grown into huge, cumbersome giants and I sometimes think some of them would be well served to be trimmed down a bit.  The curriculum can become so big as to be unwieldy and ultimately dysfunctional and unuseful.  Sometimes priorities in training can get screwed up and we start to think that "more is better" and I just don't believe that is always the case.
> 
> that's my take on it, anyways



That's pretty damn close to the exact point I was trying to make. The rest of my post was a question. Do all of the very knowledgeable people on these forums think that this would be enough?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> Then you read only what you wanted to read.



No its all in how you view it.  You asked if you(generic you not you personally)  know enough to be a black belt why keep going to a school.   I think knowing enough for a black belt means you finally know the basics yet you have not really learned the art.  Its like getting a college degree it basically means you know the basics of your field of study but are far from and expert.  In law enforcemt for example a college degree in criminal just wont make you a cop.  
If all you want is to be in shape then kettle bells and a fitness program will work better then a martial arts class.  If all you want is to defend yourself go get a gun its faster and more effective in some cases.
I do both but I train because i enjoy it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 7, 2013)

> I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black?



Well, no.  You can spend money on a school because you enjoy the training or because you are learning stuff you want to learn or because it helps you stay motivated or because you enjoy the social aspects.  Spending the time and money and effort just to get a belt of a particular color would be silly.

You say that you started martial arts training to get in shape and to learn how to defend yourself.  Obviously, if you have sufficient motivation you can work out and get in great shape at home for free.  You should know better than anyone else whether you have that motivation.

With regards to self-defense ability, I think there's a definite limit to how much you can improve training strictly on your own.  To make progress, you need training partners to drill or spar with and probably teachers to guide your development.  Of course, if you're at a school where you don't do partner drills or sparring and where the teacher doesn't provide guidance that is relevant to self-defense then it is a valid question whether you are getting the benefits you are looking for.


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## karatemom3 (Jan 7, 2013)

I wish I had the motivation to really practice on my own.  Do you have people who will seriously practice self defense with you?


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## rframe (Jan 7, 2013)

Nothing changes?  

In most styles I'm familiar with, a black belt is considered a knowledgeable beginner, not an expert.  The shodan finally has a slight clue about how to move, evade, and attack....and now they have the foundation to begin to learn the real art of application and the subtleties of techniques which makes advancement a a lifelong journey.

If your view of going to a dojo is just an exercise in working toward a black belt, then I see no point.  If you are going to train with others who share your affinity for a particular style, you enjoy their company, and you enjoy refining and polishing technique as a lifelong journey... then the belt is mostly irrelevant.

The journey does not end at black belt, in many ways that's just the starting point.


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

rframe said:


> Nothing changes?
> 
> In most styles I'm familiar with, a black belt is considered a knowledgeable beginner, not an expert.



I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2013)

rframe said:


> Nothing changes?
> 
> In most styles I'm familiar with, a black belt is considered a knowledgeable beginner, not an expert. The shodan finally has a slight clue about how to move, evade, and attack....and now they have the foundation to begin to learn the real art of application and the subtleties of techniques which makes advancement a a lifelong journey.
> 
> ...



I guess I need to ask: do you feel that one is unable to defend himself prior to reaching the level of shodan?


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## Guy Preston (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.



I think you have a wrong opinion of post black belt training...

If you just want to be tasty in a fight, buy a punch bag and hammer the hell out of it daily until you drop, and you'll be able to do the job...

Here however, you're speaking about martial arts - you won't understand training after black belt as with all due respect, you've never reached that level..

I'm coming from a Japanese MA perspective here, but I'd guess Korean's are similar.

It may look like you do the same stuff, but actually you are learning at a deeper level, tweaks are very important, etc..

You may find a technique you've always practiced one way (which is correct) is turned on its head by something new you are shown.

There is also the concept of 'kuden' to consider, often students are not shown certain things until certain stages, this may be a grade, may be based on dedication, may never be taught, etc..

From my experience, you learn the basics in the kyu grades, you learn the art in the Dan grades.

I think it was you who referenced Bruce Lee earlier, if you look at this closely however, Bruce had a foundation that he left to do his own thing, but he constantly had training partners, and sought out different instructors he could learn from, he didnt simply train the things he knew at home.

Another factor to consider, is that you learn a great deal through teaching, if you never get to that stage you're missing out on a great learning experience...


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2013)

Also depends on the style and organization.  There are several Kara and applications that we don't teach until after black belts so the learning does not stop at black belt


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I need to ask: do you feel that one is unable to defend himself prior to reaching the level of shodan?



You don't need Martial arts at all to defend yourself


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Also depends on the style and organization.  There are several Kara and applications that we don't teach until after black belts so the learning does not stop at black belt



I've seen them. They are the same moves, just used a little differently. And in all honesty, the just look "prettier", the actual application and practicality of them dissipates more and more the higher the rank that you go, in my opinion.

The basics kicks, punches, and other techniques look like they can really come in handy, but the forms after black belt just look a different way to apply those techniques in a non-practical way. 

Are they difficult to pull off? *ABSOLUTELY!! *
Could I do it? *NOPE!*

But my goal was to learn self defense. I do not feel that I will get that by jumping around and looking smooth while doing a form.

I have been you tubing and watching the advanced forms, and while impressive, they have little to no practical use in self defense, from what I can see. They are the same moves I learned in my first year of training, they are just used in a different pattern or way. Now, that may be for some people, but I do not think it is for me. Some people look beyond the self defense part and see a lot more deeper into the art than I do, but I believe I may lack the vision to see that!


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## Blindside (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> The basics kicks, punches, and other techniques look like they can really come in handy, but the forms after black belt just look a different way to apply those techniques in a non-practical way.



I'm not much of a "forms guy" myself these days, but the reason for training in a school isn't just for new forms, it is for training partners.  I've never met anyone who just trained alone in their backyard by themself who was any good.  Solo training is a portion of your training regime, it can't teach you timing, it can't teach you the pain of sucking up a shot and keeping going, it can't teach you sensitivity, and it can't measure progress.  Practicing alone will not make you awesome at self-defense.


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

Blindside said:


> I'm not much of a "forms guy" myself these days, but the reason for training in a school isn't just for new forms, it is for training partners.  I've never met anyone who just trained alone in their backyard by themself who was any good.  Solo training is a portion of your training regime, it can't teach you timing, it can't teach you the pain of sucking up a shot and keeping going, it can't teach you sensitivity, and it can't measure progress.  Practicing alone will not make you awesome at self-defense.



Yeah, well, outside of getting into a frikkin cage with someone, there is no school around here that will risk being able to train with someone where it would actually benefit your time, speed, ability to take a hit, etc. 

I see your point, but I would not be able to find that type of training anyway. Nearly all of the schools I have visited state it is because of "insurance reasons". I am not going to learn how to fight or defend myself by doing weak *** point sparring. I attended some MMA classes and, while we did go to town on each other, there were so many rules and concentration on take downs, getting points, ring control and using the cage to escape, that the feeling of "realness" disappeared.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I've seen them. They are the same moves, just used a little differently. And in all honesty, the just look "prettier", the actual application and practicality of them dissipates more and more the higher the rank that you go, in my opinion.
> 
> The basics kicks, punches, and other techniques look like they can really come in handy, but the forms after black belt just look a different way to apply those techniques in a non-practical way.
> 
> ...


The after black forms are really important. Not the fact that they're different forms, but that you're learning them in a different way and understanding them more. As far as self defense is concerned, you probably know enough now, just practice with a friend every once in a while so you dont lose your technique. But if you want to fully understand your martial art, you have to go on to levels higher then you're currently at. As for lacking the vision, yes you do, simply because you havent yet learned the application to compare the differences between your comprehension and others that are below you. And you're discrediting them when you say "_Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years?". Its more than that, they are not practicing on their own, they are learning more about them from masters (generally).


That being said, if, as you said, you only care about self defense and not the rest of it, you're most likely good as you are now. _


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2013)

One quick question though..you said you know how to box, didnt you learn boxing for about 2 weeks before quitting that gym to go back to your old one?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 7, 2013)

I think you raise a good question and the thread is one of value.  I will give you my straight-forward, blunt and to-the-point professional opinion;

The Dan/kyu/gup system is broken beyond repair.  It means nothing outside of your own school and maybe...maybe your organization.  There are no universal standards from one art to the next and indeed even within the same art.  It is a personal thing only.  And it isn't really needed or necessary to excel in the martial arts.  Indeed, how many arts don't have belts?

The longer you're in the arts, the less belts mean.  At least that is the way it should be and yes, there will be those that put more emphasis on belts/titles than they should in my not so humble opinion.  I received promotion last summer from our GM.  I haven't gotten around to picking up the cert or the belt and to be honest, I'm not in any big hurry to get them.  I haven't worn a belt since around 2005 with the exception of one photo shoot.  This isn't disrespecting the rank or the accomplishment.  But a colored or black piece of cloth isn't what I'm about.  No bad guy has ever asked me what rank I am as I'm introducing them to an accelerated directional  gravitational descent to a face-down prone position on a firm surface.  The main thing is whether or not I can do it.  

Now, that is just me.  For those in a sport martial art, they may need a certain rank to compete.  For a martial art that centers on SD, rank isn't needed.  And in many arts, nothing new is really introduced after black belt anyway.  I do not consider a new form that is a rehash of old material as new material.  So if your art indeed has NEW information/training after black belt, then it may be worth the time/effort/money to play the rank game.  If it doesn't then save your money and workout hard solo or better yet, with other martial artist that you can teach and they can teach you.

I've posted this story here multiple times.  George Matteson was the first American BB in Uechi Ryu back in the 50's.  While in Okinawa he trained with 3 Okinawans that wore white belts.  They were obviously NOT white belts.  He later learned they were Godan (5th Dan).  He asked why they wore white belts.  They answered to keep their top closed.  They never got around to buying a black one and didn't think it would improve their Karate if they did.


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> One quick question though..you said you know how to box, didnt you learn boxing for about 2 weeks before quitting that gym to go back to your old one?



I went for a month.
The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.

This would have been rinse/repeat for the next up-teen years. The same with martial arts.
The basics are all that I need. All that I need to improve is a pair of gloves and a punching bag at home.....I have the gloves! I plan on getting a bag.

The only difference is that I will not have someone looking over my shoulder giving me corrections when needed. But the corrections I would have received are not going to be the defining factor in a fight, because I strongly doubt that in the unfortunate event that I did have to defend myself, I would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive.

So it will be against some punk that throws haymakers. I do not need ten years of boxing or five years of karate to beat that....

All I need are basics, brains and a fast running speed!


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## Flying Crane (Jan 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> You don't need Martial arts at all to defend yourself



that's kinda my point.  but martial arts can be an avenue to that an it shouldn't require a shodan to make it happen.


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## Kaygee (Jan 7, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> No bad guy has ever asked me what rank I am as I'm introducing them to an accelerated directional  gravitational descent to a face-down prone position on a firm surface.  The main thing is whether or not I can do it.



Exactly my point and very well said! What belt color you are holding at that time means nothing!


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## rframe (Jan 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I need to ask: do you feel that one is unable to defend himself prior to reaching the level of shodan?



Not at all, I'd say most people with a year or two of martial arts training will be probably have the awareness and basic tools to defend against an untrained drunk/bully.  To that same point I think that if someone thinks that having a black belt means they are equipped to defend against any street attack, then they are not realistic.

Many factors would affect the outcome of a street defense situation, including the skill and motivation of the attacker along with the state of mind, experience, and the nature of the art being practiced by the defender.  Belt rank would be one of the last things I'd really put into the equation.


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## rframe (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I went for a month.
> The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
> They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.
> 
> ...



If your goal is only self defense, then a traditional art like karate or kung-fu is probably not what you want.  Look for a modern hand to hand combat system, krav maga, and non-sport BJJ.  Traditional arts will heavily emphasize perfection of technique and character.  If you just want to learn how to punch someone hard... that's going to be boring for you.


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## Guy Preston (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I went for a month.
> The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
> They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.
> 
> ...



So I have to ask....

If you've come to the conclusion that all you need is some basics, and can train the rest yourself from there...

Why the thread after thread of searching for a school, discussions on politics, etc.. In fact, why are you starting threads in the general martial arts section, and not the general self defence section?

Not that any of this is a problem, as there's been some good conversation - just curious about the quest, that just as it appears you've sorted with a club you loved, you think of giving up and going solo???


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## Blindside (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> The only difference is that I will not have someone looking over my shoulder giving me corrections when needed. But the corrections I would have received are not going to be the defining factor in a fight, because I strongly doubt that in the unfortunate event that I did have to defend myself, I would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive.
> 
> So it will be against some punk that throws haymakers. I do not need ten years of boxing or five years of karate to beat that....
> 
> All I need are basics, brains and a fast running speed!



So your plan is to practice working a bag by yourself, knowing that you are training (and training poorly) for the lowest common denominator.  How many fights have you gotten in recently that you need to dedicate X amount of your time for training?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I went for a month.
> The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
> They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.
> 
> ...



If you took boxing lessons for a month, you have seen the basics (jab, cross, hook, uppercut).  That is a long, long, long way from having mastered them.  A good boxing coach can teach you a *lot *about landing effective punches without being hit in return and it will take years to learn it all.  I can pretty much guarantee you won't learn those lessons just by hitting a heavy bag at home.

Now, will you ever need those lessons for self-defense?  Who knows.  98% of self-defense has very little to do with fighting anyway.  If you live your life right, avoid dangerous places and people, control your ego and temper, and generally stay out of trouble then you may never have to throw a punch at anyone.  On the other hand, if you get unlucky or screw up there are some dangerous folks out there.  It's up to you how much effort you want to put into developing fighting skills.


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## K-man (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.


I think this perception is why so many people quit after getting their black belt. They know it all and they can see from what the more advanced students are doing that it is just more of the same and that the forms are just for show or competition, nothing to do with self defence!  If you train in such a school then I feel sorry for you because they obviously have less than half of the martial art story. I would hazard a guess that most karate schools just teach 'schoolboy' karate as that is what we were all taught 30 or 40 years ago and the students from then are the high ranking instructors now.  If they haven't developed with more recent information as it has come available then they can't teach at a higher level. I left my original organisation for that very reason. 

I realise that you have limited options for your training but if what you see in your new school is what you have described, then keep looking.  Don't stop training where you are as that will be much, much better than training alone, but keep your eyes open for a good school. In fact, I would say keep looking for an exceptional school.  

And, if the forms as you are being shown won't help you fight ... that's an even more compelling reason to find a school that can show you that the forms will help you fight.    :asian:


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## geezer (Jan 7, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> If I already know all of the basic moves, *wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan* if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years?



*No*, you would not be as good as a _good_ 2nd or 3rd dan, unless you had really good training partners to drill and spar with, and the watchful eye of a good coach to give you pointers as needed. Actually, that's true of training regardless of style or belt color. I currently train under a couple of Eskrima guys who never earned a high belt rank in any style, but they've spent many decades training with some good people and testing their skills. And they've trained some good fighters too. It's not about the belt, it's about the quality of training. Nobody gets really good training _alone_ without good partners.


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## arnisador (Jan 7, 2013)

When I became a brown belt in karate, my instructor said that _I _was now responsible for correcting _his _form so that he would be kept to standard too.

Without someone who knows what they're doing, your form will change. If that's OK by you...fine. But practicing literally _on your own_, without a partner, is apt to leave your technique sterile.

Typically belt rank is based on time-in or contributions to the org. after 5th degree or so, but before that there may be new material.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> that's kinda my point.  but martial arts can be an avenue to that an it shouldn't require a shodan to make it happen.



Depends on why you are studying martial arts in the first place.  I dont go to class to learn to defend myself.  I carry a gun, cell phone, and avoid bad situations for that.  I train to learn new things keep my mind working, keep my body moving, and to release stress and more importantly I just enjoy it.  

But to you point no you don't need to be a black belt to defend yourself I believe self preservation and defense is born into you.  My three year old knows how to hit kick bite and scream.  He defends himself just fine against his brother.  He's never been taught anything ita just natural.  Obviously adding training can make you better but watching newer people spar I think they are actually worse because they are using techniques that are new to them and not yet natural so they hesitate to think "what next" instead of just reacting naturally.  So that's where time which also usually means rank comes in it takes several years of training for certain things to become a natural reaction.  Sticking with a martial art for the time it take to become a natural reaction will usually equal higher ranking.


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## alburyscott (Jan 8, 2013)

I think (in my very humble opinion) that learning to fight is very different from martial arts in many cases. Now if you have no need to make friends, have some laughs, no need to move in a way you may not otherwise, no need to have the stress reduction and self confidence boosts that happen in class, no you may not need a class. You can probably do the basics, learn to punch and kick hard, and you are right, for the lowest common denominators, that will work (maybe).

But.......

If you are never taught how to apply those things, and you never "pressure test" those skills, how will you know? Being that (from what I have read) confidence is a big part of real self defence, how can you ever really be very confidant with your ability? How do you know how a person moves if all you do is punch a bag? How will you know how you cope with being hit if you have never been hit? Yes there are restrictions in a club setting. No you will not go hammer and tongs, but personally, I would no longer train in a club that did not spend time teaching basics, but I would also no longer train where this is not "pressure testing", even if it is a limited amount. 

I also love my training friends, some of them have become some of my best mates. We have shared pain, we have shared a little blood, and we put our health and safety in each others hands, so we have to learn to trust each other. I appreciate the small corrections. I appreciate learning about the nature of violence, the psychology, the reality of it. Mostly, I like the confidence it has given me in all areas of life, that has transferred to home, work as well as the street, and for me, because of all that, my training is cheap, and worth every cent (and then some).


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## Kaygee (Jan 8, 2013)

alburyscott said:


> If you are never taught how to apply those things, and you never "pressure test" those skills, how will you know? Being that (from what I have read) confidence is a big part of real self defence, how can you ever really be very confidant with your ability? How do you know how a person moves if all you do is punch a bag? How will you know how you cope with being hit if you have never been hit?



No school around here "pressure tests" any of the skills that you are taught anyway, outside of worthless point sparring.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> No school around here "pressure tests" any of the skills that you are taught anyy, outside of worthless point sparring.



IF your interested in pressure testing you could try to enter tournaments your in Philly they have amature MMA tournaments and full contact karate tournament in that area all the time. There is one coming up in the next few weeks in Wilmington Del someone from my gym is entered in.  
But in reality " worthless"point sparring is alot better then shadow boxing and hitting a bag at least when  sparing the opponent moves and can hit back.  We do controlled yet full speed and power sparring at my dojo your welcome to come by next time we spar I figure your about an hour to hour and a half away from me.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> No school around here "pressure tests" any of the skills that you are taught anyway,



In most cases, I'd ask how you know that "no school" does or does not do anything, but in your case I wouldn't be suprised to hear that you'd enrolled in all of them. For a short time. :rofl:



Kaygee said:


> outside of worthless point sparring.



And how is point sparring LESS helpful than pounding on a poor defenseless bag that cannot move or strike back?


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## Mauthos (Jan 8, 2013)

I think this thread poses an interesting question.  Belts in my opinion do not mean anything regarding to skill in actual competition or real life situations.  Some black belts are phenomenal fighters, others get bested regularly by any coloured belt, but their technique is flawless.  It is all relative, a black belt normally symbolizes dedication and time spent training in a particular martial art.

Due to my past jobs and traveling a great deal, belts never meant a thing to me, I just wanted to train and sought out decent clubs where ever I was at that particular time.  Therefore, I hold several coloured belts in several martial arts, but it took me approximately 20 years to actually obtain a black belt and although I was very proud, it didn't change my opinion that belt colour doesn't really matter (it took me a further 6 years until I was pretty much told I was grading for my 2nd).

However, there is also an important thing to note and that is, in all honesty, you never stop learning when training in any martial art.  It may seem like it is the same moves repeated in different sequences, but as you practice you improve, refine and understand those moves even more.  Especially as in many martial arts, as a black belt, you are expected to teach or at least assist in teaching and I have found this also opens your eyes and allows you to understand the art to a greater degree.  Students will always make you think and question which can do nothing but improve your own understanding of a style.

I cannot comment as to further techniques after black belt for your particular style, but I know that my style, Kenpo, does have the prerequisite new forms but although the techniques you learn up to 3rd dan are the same as earlier grades, they are known as extensions as you now learn how to take a SD technique that little bit further, for example Twirling wings is first taught in the purple belt syllabus and then again, with its extension, in the 1st black belt.

I do believe training at home is important and can help keep you sharp, but in my opinion this needs to be mixed up with training with a club, with an instructor and other students.  I personally don't train in Kenpo having moved away from my original Kenpo club and mine is the only one in my current area.  However, at least 6 times a year I visit my instructor and his students or they come to me, to keep my hand in as it were.

Training in a club allows you to improve, by having that critical view from your instructor, being surprised by students that will make you think, sweat and react in new ways.  Nothing can improve your fighting ability than sparring with a variety of abilities and builds whether it is realistic pressure tested fighting, semi-continuous, full contact, point scoring, it'll all help you develop into a better fighter all round.  I personally do not like point scoring fighting, but I have trained in it as well as full contact, semi-contact (I have fought a lot in both semi and full contact competitions) and I always pressure test my stuff, it has help and improved me to no end.

I do not think the main purpose for training in a martial art should be to attain a black belt status (I am one of those that does believe you only truly start learning when you achieve your BB now), but to constantly strive to perfect your style, technique and to improve your understanding and ability.

However, it is really what works for you.  If you prefer training solo, going at it at your own pace at your own time, then feel free to fill your boots.  My advice though would be to stick with a school, enjoy the training and learn the lessons taught literally and the ones that will creep up on you, you'll be a better martial artist and fighter for it.


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black?


The absolute 100% serious answer is: First learn all those things, really learn them, then, after the period of a couple of years which it will take to gain enough expertise, you will find that you already know the answer for yourself.  Either you'll want to keep doing it or you won't.

It's really that simple.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I read it as I already know everything there is so why train


There are lots of people who don't care about having a black belt.  Ever heard of a "Professional Brown Belt" in Judo?  It's not exactly uncommon for Judoka to just keep doing Judo because they enjoy it and a lot of them stop testing at Brown because they've got enough Dojo-rank to randori hard with whoever shows up but they don't have the pressure of being required to go for Dan ranking.

Beyond that there are a crap-ton of martial arts that either have different, non Gup/Dan (Kyu/Dan), ranking systems or no ranking system at all.  There are some which have no "rank" to speak of except for competition victories.  Yet all of these practitioners find enough value in the training that they continue, regardless of not having "Black Belt" as a goal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> that's one way of reading it, but I didn't read it that way.  I read it as, "how much material is really necessary to accomplish the goal of having solid self defense skills?"
> 
> Personally I think it's an interesting question.  Martial systems have sometimes grown into huge, cumbersome giants and I sometimes think some of them would be well served to be trimmed down a bit.  The curriculum can become so big as to be unwieldy and ultimately dysfunctional and unuseful.  Sometimes priorities in training can get screwed up and we start to think that "more is better" and I just don't believe that is always the case.
> 
> that's my take on it, anyways


Well, there's more to it than that.  There's a certain level of expertise which is necessary for 80% of Self Defense or 80% of Military Combat effectiveness.  But there's the other 20% that you can go to if you want.  I see this extremely well illustrated in Western civ. Saber traditions.  When you look at the military Saber manuals, intended to instruct recruits in the most simple and effective methods, the systems tend to be quite small and basic.  The KISS Principle is in effect.  On the other hand, when you look at material for Dueling and related Fencing, you see a lot more sophisticated, detailed, and developed systems.  What's the difference?  The guy at the other end of the sword.  The more adept your opponent, the better you have to be to succeed.

I see the same thing in Bayonet too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> That's pretty damn close to the exact point I was trying to make. The rest of my post was a question. Do all of the very knowledgeable people on these forums think that this would be enough?


No, I don't think so.

If *all* you were interested in was pragmatic self defense you'd buy a gun and get training and a CCP in that, then you'd go find someone teaching small knives, short sticks, and some sort of modern CQC.  But you're not doing that.  You're looking for "Martial Arts" so, like Rocco in Key Largo, "you want more."  The problem for you is that you haven't figured out exactly what that "more" is yet.

Figure out what you really want, emotionally, and you'll find out what you need to do to fill that emotional need.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The Dan/kyu/gup system is broken beyond repair.  It means nothing outside of your own school and maybe...maybe your organization.  There are no universal standards from one art to the next and indeed even within the same art.  It is a personal thing only.  And it isn't really needed or necessary to excel in the martial arts.  Indeed, how many arts don't have belts?


That doesn't mean the system is "broken" it just means that what we martial artists think that non-martial artists think the dan/kyu(gup) system means is inaccurate.  The "system" doesn't need fixing.  Either the general public needs educated about what the system represents or we martial artists need to realize that the general public has gotten the message.  One of those two things.

Now, since I've been seeing (and have written, myself) articles for many years stating that rankings in one system do not equate to skill in some other system, and, equally, I've seen "black belt = beginning" vs "black belt = expert" debates going back, literally, decades, I'd have to conclude that the information is "out there" for anyone who's interested in seeing it.  That must, therefore, mean that the general public either already knows or just simply doesn't care about the distinction.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## James Kovacich (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.



Maybe you need to switch styles as it seems you now have differant goals in your training.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I went for a month.
> The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
> They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.
> 
> ...


No, the difference is that the other students, who stay longer and get more practice, will be better able to perform the techniques and less likely to make mistakes, mistakes which could get them hurt.



> But the corrections I would have received are not going to be the defining factor in a fight, because I strongly doubt that in the unfortunate event that I did have to defend myself, I would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive.
> 
> So it will be against some punk that throws haymakers. I do not need ten years of boxing or five years of karate to beat that....
> 
> All I need are basics, brains and a fast running speed!


Ummm.... yeeah...  You have some basic assumptions which may not be accurate.  How to you know that if you have to defend yourself, "it will be against some punk that throws haymakers?"  Really? How do you know that you, "would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive?"  What makes you really believe that training is that low or that 99% are "not aggressive?"  For that matter, who says that people don't start non-aggressive and circumstances alter?  Road Rage happens to everyone and everyone can have a bad day.

I really think you need to look closely at what your base inputs are. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## harlan (Jan 8, 2013)

Having read your previous posts, I can say with certainty, that paying 100$ month is a good deal for you. You can keep the basic skills and fitness level that you value sharp.

Personally, after reading the post below, I would not teach you...for any price. You simply do not appear to have what it takes to succeed in a martial study.



Kaygee said:


> I went for a month.
> The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
> They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.
> 
> ...


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## James Kovacich (Jan 8, 2013)

harlan said:


> Having read your previous posts, I can say with certainty, that paying 100$ month is a good deal for you.
> 
> Personally, after reading the post below, I would not teach you...for any price.



It seems he's struggling to "get it." Nothing gets ingrained in such short periods of time. 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

rframe said:


> I'd say most people with a year or two of martial arts training will be probably have the awareness and basic tools to defend against an untrained drunk/bully.


Why is it that most people assume that they'll be assaulted by an "untrained drunk/bully?"  Statistics indicate that most violent assaulter, people most likely to mug you or pick a bar fight, have been in many fights prior to meeting you.  You're just another fight to them.  Further, even sans "formal training," just getting out and actually fighting is a great method of instilling the basics of "what works."

Now, I'm not saying that it's most likely that you'll be attacked by ninjas but, rather, that the concept of the most likely attacker being an "untrained drunk/bully" is a fallacy.  He's not necessarily going to be some goob throwing wild haymakers!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you took boxing lessons for a month, you have seen the basics (jab, cross, hook, uppercut).  That is a long, long, long way from having mastered them.  A good boxing coach can teach you a *lot *about landing effective punches without being hit in return and it will take years to learn it all.  I can pretty much guarantee you won't learn those lessons just by hitting a heavy bag at home.
> 
> Now, will you ever need those lessons for self-defense?  Who knows.  98% of self-defense has very little to do with fighting anyway.  If you live your life right, avoid dangerous places and people, control your ego and temper, and generally stay out of trouble then you may never have to throw a punch at anyone.  On the other hand, if you get unlucky or screw up there are some dangerous folks out there.  It's up to you how much effort you want to put into developing fighting skills.


I regret that I can only hit "Thanks" on this post once.  It deserves 5 or 10.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## harlan (Jan 8, 2013)

And I think that 'to the right student, the right teacher/school/training situation'. Short term goals, impatience, lack of understanding of the role of sensei, I think this student is barking up the wrong tree. Wants to do martial arts, but doesn't have the temperament for it.

Stick to a good gym.



James Kovacich said:


> It seems he's struggling to "get it." Nothing gets ingrained in such short periods of time.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## lklawson (Jan 8, 2013)

alburyscott said:


> I think (in my very humble opinion) that learning to fight is very different from martial arts in many cases.


It may be but it doesn't have to be.

Most martial arts started out as a system for fighting.  Many of them still are.  Many, however, have evolved and adapted to better fit their modern environment which, particularly in the U.S. and Japan, seldom require actual melee skills (statistically speaking).  If they were to survive, they had to change and offer benefits to modern practitioners in excess of simple "fighting" skills.

 For any given person in the United States, the odds of being the victim of a ANY violent crime (such as being slapped by an irate waitress) is somewhere south of 2% and there is about a .0056% chance they will die from a homicide.

Thus we have martial arts that "enhance physical condition" and "build character and respect."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Well, there's more to it than that. There's a certain level of expertise which is necessary for 80% of Self Defense or 80% of Military Combat effectiveness. But there's the other 20% that you can go to if you want. I see this extremely well illustrated in Western civ. Saber traditions. When you look at the military Saber manuals, intended to instruct recruits in the most simple and effective methods, the systems tend to be quite small and basic. The KISS Principle is in effect. On the other hand, when you look at material for Dueling and related Fencing, you see a lot more sophisticated, detailed, and developed systems. What's the difference? The guy at the other end of the sword. The more adept your opponent, the better you have to be to succeed.
> 
> I see the same thing in Bayonet too.
> 
> ...



Yes, these are good points and I agree.  And yet I still feel that sometimes more is simply not better.  Sometimes people are unable to recognize what does NOT belong in the curriculum.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I know....Oh My God, another Kaygee post, right?
> 
> Seriously though....I don't want to catch a rash of crap for this, so I would appreciate an honest, open and MATURE discussion or I ask that you take your hateful comments elsewhere.
> 
> ...



The real basis of any art isn't just about how to punch, kick, throw, etc. If you see it that way then, yes, it's all just motion rearranged in different orders and there's no point in getting/seeking instruction because you already feel that you have this part down well enough and are in great shape. However, the real meat of the arts goes behind mere how to also encompassing when (timing), what (targets, angles), why (tactics, strategies), who (ethics, force regulation, situation awareness) and where (standing, ground, confined space, cluttered parking lot, environment, weapons availability, friends nearby, hostile part of town), etc.

Much of this can't be done without at least one other person to train with and almost all of it is easier for most people to grasp when instructed on it rather than working it out for themselves (though there are many people who can work it out for themselves with limited to no instruction).

I don't fear the guy who has done 1,000 kicks 1 time or the guy that's done 1 kick 1,000 times. If I feared any man it would be the one who trained to use however much he knows against someone skilled who doesn't want to allow him to use it.


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## alburyscott (Jan 8, 2013)

If you take boxing as an example (as you did), I have a friend who is a trainer. He has worked with don king and multiple world champions. I asked him, and he said he could teach most people the basic punches in about 2 weeks (in most cases). I said how long before someone could use these on the street if need be. His answer was about 2 to 3 years. I asked him how much longer would it be if they took the two weeks, and trained on their own. NEVER. If you don't train in a ring/mat, with real people, you never learn the skills. I tend to believe him


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## chinto (Jan 8, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> well, here's some perspective...I train in a very traditional kung fu method, under a sifu who has been training since the early 1950s.  He's old-school, grew up in Hong Kong and trained with some heavies in our particular system.  We've got a good number of forms in our system (I actually believe that forms are a very useful tool for training some very useful skills, tho they need to be taught properly, understood properly, and practiced properly and that often doesn't happen) and our training tends to place a heavy focus on forms.
> 
> Sifu has said for a long time, if you really understand your basics, and if you have only learned the first of our forms, you've got PLENTY to be able to fight with.  If you've learned our 2nd and 3rd forms, then you've got enough for a lifetime of training.  You really do not need the dozen or so other forms that we have, not to mention the dozen or more weapons forms.
> 
> ...



I agree, but you will learn a lot more and understand a lot more, and more quickly if you train under a competent instructor.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2013)

chinto said:


> I agree, but you will learn a lot more and understand a lot more, and more quickly if you train under a competent instructor.



that goes without saying, and if a shorter course is to be successful then it is only with a competent instructor.

The point being, if all you want is some fundamental fighting skills and a way to exercise, you can get that pretty quickly.  You don't need to study for years and years, and you don't need to reach the high ranks in the martial arts to get that.


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## Kaygee (Jan 8, 2013)

Good luck to everyone in your training! God-speed!


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2013)

geezer said:


> Nobody gets really good training _alone_ without good partners.



That made me recall something I was told long ago when I was training in Lau Gar - you rise to the level of your opponents.  In that particular instance the outcome was less than satisfactory as the school was overly focussed on winning silverware in competition but the principle remains true.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 8, 2013)

K-man said:


> I think this perception is why so many people quit after getting their black belt. They know it all and they can see from what the more advanced students are doing that it is just more of the same



I don't disagree in principle with what *K* said in the post this is from but I do have to add that if experienced eyes do not see a difference watching my performance, at third dan, versus that of my sensei, a sixth dan (long overdue for higher), then something is seriously amiss .  Some days I get to thinking that just maybe I am getting good at this sword-slinging lark ... then I watch my sensei doing the same form and reconsider :lol:.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 8, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> I don't disagree in principle with what *K* said in the post this is from but I do have to add that if experienced eyes do not see a difference watching my performance, at third dan, versus that of my sensei, a sixth dan (long overdue for higher), then something is seriously amiss . Some days I get to thinking that just maybe I am getting good at this sword-slinging lark ... then I watch my sensei doing the same form and reconsider :lol:.



funny, I have the same experience with my training and my sifu.  Just when I'm feeling like I can do this stuff pretty well, he can make me feel like I can't do anything simply by showing a better example.


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## frank raud (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> No school around here "pressure tests" any of the skills that you are taught anyway, outside of worthless point sparring.



You could always switch to judo, that would take care of the worthless point sparring.


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## alburyscott (Jan 8, 2013)

Kaygee, why so dismissive? I answered your question with respect, no attacks, from my point of view with examples and supporting opinion. It sounds to me that you had the answer you wanted, and ran when you didn't get it. 

A very respected mentor of mine often says "If you don't want an honest answer, don't ask the question."

So to sum it up, isn't it the same? Not in the slightest. Wont it make you better than you are now? Probably. If it is what you want to do, go for it. If you are looking for validation, go crazy. Heck get some bumper plates, a bar and lear to olympic lift, you will be a strong powerful beast fast (thats what I love to do btw, hence the analogy), but I don't for a second think that replaces my martial arts class.

Just out of interest, since you seam to want reality based self defence, got any Krav Maga or Systema around you. Once or twice a week there (and often cheap) might be the ticket in a short period of time. Or Judo, that stuff can be NASTY, and clubs (at least here) are plentiful and cheap.

Good luck mate, hope whatever you choose brings you peace and joy


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## Blindside (Jan 8, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> That made me recall something I was told long ago when I was training in Lau Gar - you rise to the level of your opponents.



I always heard the opposite; "you sink to the level of your training," which might be a good quote for Kaygee to take notice of.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 8, 2013)

Why do so many people think your going to only need martial arts against untrained dunk punks?  In reality people like that are easily avoidable you can see them as soon as you enter a bar who you should avoid.  In reality real criminals do train.  They train in prisons and  with other criminals.  As a police officer I've. Talked to many  criminals I see them at the gym I see them going to dojos and now a lot go to mma gyms.  I was once told by a guy "I like going to prison so I can get better training so I can be better prepared to fight you". I took that to heart and started Martial Arts classes that week.  The real problems are not drunks at bars.  Real criminals are always training and preparing for fights.  I once pulled up to a group of 5 girls attacking a 6th girl.  They were between 7 and 10 years old.  I stopped them and the girl getting attacked got mad at me.  She said they were her friends and they were taking turns fighting each other because there was supposed to be a big fight at school in the next few days and they wanted to be ready.  I talked to the parents and none of them seemed upset by this.  
So the sooner people realize there are real bad people out there that really do train the sooner you will see the value in training yourself.


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## Carol (Jan 9, 2013)

These guys train every day...

http://blogs.reuters.com/photographers-blog/2011/06/06/my-day-in-a-california-prison/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## DennisBreene (Jan 9, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> If you consider a blackbelt as the end of learning then there is no point in training at all.  I see a black belt as the beginning of training.  You get a black belt you finally know the basics of the style and now the real learning can start.



I agree with ballen0351, but I also understand that martial arts study is broad enough to accomadate any number of perspectives. I enjoy the timelessness of an art that is passed on through the generations. I recognize that that does not ensure an overarching knowledge of martial arts but it is a way of belonging to something larger than myself. It is important to me that my system survives and that there are practitioners who devote a lifetime to studying the arts and passing it on to others.  I enjoy teaching what little I have to offer and at my age, I find these aspects more important than what I can physically accomplish.  Working with others and maintaining connections with other practitioners of the arts is another form of human contact that gives me roots. These days, I find that more important than my black belt or my individual progress.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 9, 2013)

Blindside said:


> I always heard the opposite; "you sink to the level of your training," which might be a good quote for Kaygee to take notice of.



I agree :nods:.  The phrase was used in the context of the quality of your training partners rather than 'opponents' in the combative sense.


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## Kframe (Jan 9, 2013)

Kaygee, i have read your threads in the past and this current one and ill say this. To me it sounds as if you just dont like the traditional side of martial arts. IE the forms and no contact drills ect ect. It sounds like you love the martial arts but feel that something is missing. Your quest to find the "perfect" Dojo, is similar to what i experianced not to long ago. I was on a quest to find the "perfect" TKD school. One day it came to me, that no school in tkd would be able to satisfy the criteria i was looking for. So with a broken heart, i accepted the fact that modern combatives marital arts was for me.(notice i did not say MMA) 

Maybe you have a unrealistic set of expectations for what you want out of a school. I know i did. I expected a tkd school that actually used there hands, had quality sparring out side of the Olympic rules, and practiced (frequently) all forms of takedown defense. You just strike me as someone on a similar path as me. Dont waste as much time as i did searching for that perfect school. Maybe what you want lies out side of the Traditional martial arts. Maybe what you want is a modern combatives or even mma style. Heck you could do a few seperate arts at the same time and get the same results. Dedicated boxing gyms tend to be very cheap. My boxing gym is a club, and it costs all of $20 the whole year. Its more of a service to the community but you get the idea.  

So honestly instead of stirring the pot here, i think you need to sit down and figure out what you want, and then figure out if that list is reasonable and realistic. 

Im not trying to comedown on you, i know how you feel. I went through the same thing. Hell do some degree i still am. I still find my self occasionally searching for a better TKD school. In my heart i keep hoping that one day that awesome school will pop up. Its sad really, all it does is remind me that ill never find what i seek. So please, your younger then i am, dont waste the best years of your life searching and hopping around. Plant some roots, grow a martial family and let go of your unreasonable expectations.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Why do so many people think your going to only need martial arts against untrained dunk punks? In reality people like that are easily avoidable you can see them as soon as you enter a bar who you should avoid. In reality real criminals do train. They train in prisons and with other criminals. As a police officer I've. Talked to many criminals I see them at the gym I see them going to dojos and now a lot go to mma gyms. I was once told by a guy "I like going to prison so I can get better training so I can be better prepared to fight you". I took that to heart and started Martial Arts classes that week. The real problems are not drunks at bars. Real criminals are always training and preparing for fights. I once pulled up to a group of 5 girls attacking a 6th girl. They were between 7 and 10 years old. I stopped them and the girl getting attacked got mad at me. She said they were her friends and they were taking turns fighting each other because there was supposed to be a big fight at school in the next few days and they wanted to be ready. I talked to the parents and none of them seemed upset by this.
> So the sooner people realize there are real bad people out there that really do train the sooner you will see the value in training yourself.




Totally agree. We were talking in the club the other week about 'hard men' and my instructor who's been around a bit to say the least says that with certain people what makes them appear hard is actually them not caring what they do, they don't care if they hurt you and they don't care if they get hurt so they will happily fight anyone anywhere. In the UK there are a couple of high profile criminals who are now 'celebrities' after writing books etc and this is exactly what it is with them. It's not so much they are fit and train, it's their mindset that makes them dangerous, they don't have limits when it comes to violence. One chap we know, a fighter who may be known to some here so I shan't mention his name, was being bothered by a 'fan', the fighter punched him to the floor then took a chair and beat him unconcious with it, the guy was in a coma for 2 days. It's that 'not caring' about anything you have to watch.


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## Guy Preston (Jan 9, 2013)

Carol said:


> These guys train every day...
> 
> http://blogs.reuters.com/photographers-blog/2011/06/06/my-day-in-a-california-prison/
> 
> ...




Great point!!!

But not only do they train every day, they also have that 'don't care' mindset Tez3 was referring to... as well as probably a fair amount of actual experience in fighting...


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## Kaygee (Jan 9, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Kaygee, i have read your threads in the past and this current one and ill say this. To me it sounds as if you just dont like the traditional side of martial arts. IE the forms and no contact drills ect ect. It sounds like you love the martial arts but feel that something is missing. Your quest to find the "perfect" Dojo, is similar to what i experianced not to long ago. I was on a quest to find the "perfect" TKD school. One day it came to me, that no school in tkd would be able to satisfy the criteria i was looking for. So with a broken heart, i accepted the fact that modern combatives marital arts was for me.(notice i did not say MMA)
> 
> Maybe you have a unrealistic set of expectations for what you want out of a school. I know i did. I expected a tkd school that actually used there hands, had quality sparring out side of the Olympic rules, and practiced (frequently) all forms of takedown defense. You just strike me as someone on a similar path as me. Dont waste as much time as i did searching for that perfect school. Maybe what you want lies out side of the Traditional martial arts. Maybe what you want is a modern combatives or even mma style. Heck you could do a few seperate arts at the same time and get the same results. Dedicated boxing gyms tend to be very cheap. My boxing gym is a club, and it costs all of $20 the whole year. Its more of a service to the community but you get the idea.
> 
> ...



<3


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## Flying Crane (Jan 9, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> they don't care if they hurt you and they don't care if they get hurt
> ...
> 
> It's that 'not caring' about anything you have to watch.



That's kinda the definition of a sociopath.  Yes, they do exist.  

I don't believe you need to become a sociopath in order to defend yourself against one.  But sure, they are a real hazard if you ever encounter one.


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## Carol (Jan 9, 2013)

Ninniku Dojo said:


> Great point!!!
> 
> But not only do they train every day, they also have that 'don't care' mindset Tez3 was referring to... as well as probably a fair amount of actual experience in fighting...



Absolutely. The blog also had this quote:





> A rhythmic shouting cadence came from a building next to the exercise yard.
> 
> 
> Our guide explained that gang members in jail viewed themselves as  soldiers. They trained to be ready to fight at any time  with prison  officers, other prisoners, upon their eventual release.
> ...



The most dangerous person out there is the person who has nothing to lose.


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## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> That's kinda the definition of a sociopath. Yes, they do exist.
> 
> I don't believe you need to become a sociopath in order to defend yourself against one. But sure, they are a real hazard if you ever encounter one.



I don't think I said you had to become one to defend yourself I was expanding on the mistaken idea that you are only going to be attacked by untrained idiots taking wild swings at you.
They certainly do exist and while I wouldn't say they are becoming more numerous that mindset is certainly expanding, it's partner with the 'me' thin, where selfishness is peoples only concern.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 10, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think I said you had to become one to defend yourself I was expanding on the mistaken idea that you are only going to be attacked by untrained idiots taking wild swings at you.
> They certainly do exist and while I wouldn't say they are becoming more numerous that mindset is certainly expanding, it's partner with the 'me' thin, where selfishness is peoples only concern.



I didn't mean to imply you were saying you need to become one in order to defend against one.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 10, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think I said you had to become one to defend yourself I was expanding on the mistaken idea that you are only going to be attacked by untrained idiots taking wild swings at you.
> They certainly do exist and while I wouldn't say they are becoming more numerous that mindset is certainly expanding, it's partner with the 'me' thin, where selfishness is peoples only concern.



I can't remember the last time anyone - trained, untrained, drunk, stoned, crazy or just plain pissed off at the world - took the sort of "wild swing" at me that people seem to assume are all we need to deal with. Tweaker last week threw a roundhouse kick at me last week. Not the best, about what I'd expect from one of our mid-level colored belts, but it had good power. No, it didn't land. No, he didn't enjoy the results of the kick. No, I don't think it's reasonable to think that all we have to deal with are "untrained idiots taking wild swings". As others have said, most people have been in fights, or seen enough fights, to have a little idea of what they want to do.


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## Blindside (Jan 10, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can't remember the last time anyone - trained, untrained, drunk, stoned, crazy or just plain pissed off at the world - took the sort of "wild swing" at me that people seem to assume are all we need to deal with. Tweaker last week threw a roundhouse kick at me last week. Not the best, about what I'd expect from one of our mid-level colored belts, but it had good power. No, it didn't land. No, he didn't enjoy the results of the kick. No, I don't think it's reasonable to think that all we have to deal with are "untrained idiots taking wild swings". As others have said, most people have been in fights, or seen enough fights, to have a little idea of what they want to do.



Well, all two (large sample size there...) altercations that I have been in have started with them throwing a big looping right hand punches.  Both were drunk and apparently untrained.

Both seemed incredibly slow to me.  Part adrenaline, part me being used to skilled sparring partners.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 10, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Well, all two (large sample size there...) altercations that I have been in have started with them throwing a big looping right hand punches.  Both were drunk and apparently untrained.



I don't deny that these sorts of attacks happen, I just don't think it's smart to assume that is ALL that will happen.

My own personal sample size is based on an average of one a week, in the ER, plus 3 incidents outside the ER.
One incident outside the ER involved a knife. Two incidents in the ER involved knives (only counting those that were pulled, not those that were taken peacefully) and one in the ER involved a gun (same rule, the other two times I've taken guns off patients they were still holstered and the patient was not resisting).


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## Flying Crane (Jan 10, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Well, all two (large sample size there...) altercations that I have been in have started with them throwing a big looping right hand punches. Both were drunk and apparently untrained.



I had a young fellow attempt to convince me that he was trained.  He held up his hands and bounced around in imitation of a Thai boxer, and then threw a roundhouse kick.  It actually landed on me, and I didn't even feel it, completely ineffectual.  I was actually just really shocked by the whole thing, as I probably outweighed him by a good 30-40 pounds, and I'm not a big guy.  I just couldn't believe he was actually trying to go there with me.  I guess that should be the lesson to me:  take it seriously, even when it looks like a joke, he coulda had a knife or something.

When I saw his five friends sprinting down the sidewalk at me, that's when I decided it was time to bug out.

Not to discount the real threat of genuinely dangerous people, but not everyone is that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 10, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I had a young fellow attempt to convince me that he was trained.  He held up his hands and bounced around in imitation of a Thai boxer, and then threw a roundhouse kick.  It actually landed on me, and I didn't even feel it, completely ineffectual.  I was actually just really shocked by the whole thing, as I probably outweighed him by a good 30-40 pounds, and I'm not a big guy.  I just couldn't believe he was actually trying to go there with me.  I guess that should be the lesson to me:  take it seriously, even when it looks like a joke, he coulda had a knife or something.
> 
> When I saw his five friends sprinting down the sidewalk at me, that's when I decided it was time to bug out.
> 
> Not to discount the real threat of genuinely dangerous people, but not everyone is that.



Certainly true. And when you CAN bugout, by all means do so. I'm certainly glad this guy was neither effective nor armed, and that you left before something worse happened.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 10, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Certainly true. And when you CAN bugout, by all means do so. I'm certainly glad this guy was neither effective nor armed, and that you left before something worse happened.



oh yeah, I've gotten more use from ny Nike-Jitsu than anything else, it's gotten my out of a couple of potentially bad situations.

One was when I was walking home from work, and was passing by some housing projects, not terrible places, but not the best.  I had three young guys, one actually quite young, the other two old enough to be genuinely dangerous, especially working as a team.  They confronted me and I took off, showed them that I could outrun them and they gave chase for a block or two.  What struck me about that situation was how incompetent they actually were.  Maybe it was their youth and inexperience, I dunno.  But they confronted me without first surrounding me, without first trying to hit me or something.  If they had done that, things might have ended differently.  But they didn't and I escaped rather easily, all things considered.  But I believe they were quite incompetent, as far as being street thugs.

I've had a handful of other, similar incidents, where people tried to confront me.  One or two I ran, one time a guy tried to grab at me and I brushed him off and turned to confront him and he backed down while kinda laughing, one guy threatened me with a "gun" in his sweatshirt pocket.  I told him I didn't have anything for him, he shrugged, and just turned and walked away.  Weird.  I don't know if he actually had a gun, I doubt it but I could be wrong.

There are some genuinely dangerous, scary folks out there and they cause trouble for people.  Some of them are career criminals, and prey on people as a way of life.  That is true.  But there are a lot of wannabes who could be dangerous, but just aren't that good at it.  So yeah, be careful, and be wary and aware and recognize that the scary dudes exist.  But keep it in perspective and don't get excessively paranoid about it.

I sometimes think that the practice of training in the martial arts, and contemplating and thinking about self-defense and the dangers in the world, can magnify the dangers in our minds into something greater than it really is.  Take it seriously, but don't let it make you paranoid.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 10, 2013)

The other thing to keep in mind is that some of these people WOULD be dangerous if it weren't for your training. How many new students don't understand Gun-Fu beats Kung-Fu, or Chic-Chic-Pow beats Taekwondo? How many have no idea how important Run-Fu is? How many are just totally oblivious to their surroundings?


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## DennisBreene (Jan 10, 2013)

Kaygee said:


> I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.


 
I have a black belt, and several years of training experience.  I also have many more years of not training. A fact I seriously regret. When I realized that I wanted to return to the world of martial arts, my prior background made me confident that I could recover a certain level of skill but I was long past the point of performing like I did when I was 20. I currently train on a periodic basis with 3 masters. One is the son of my first master and I travel from Illinois to Maryland a couple of times a year to work with him. Why? His 40+ years of teaching and his amazing technical abilities serve my needs. He provides perspective and critical correction of my less skilled techniques. That is not to say that I am without skills but to highlight my awareness that his assistance improves my abilities.  I think that is what we all seek in a teacher and it probably applies in any discipline of study.  If you don't feel you are getting that insight from your teachers; maybe you should consider supplimenting your self directed training with an instructor who can provide feedback you feel is beneficial.  It's not about the belt pursee, it's about a body of knowledge that meets your individual goals.


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