# Who teaches Modern Arnis vs Presas Arnis?



## Red Blade (Aug 25, 2003)

My question isn't that easy to answer. Who or which groups have the right to use the term Modern Arnis vs. Traditional Remy Presas Arnis? 

  :asian:


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## Cruentus (Aug 25, 2003)

Red,

I don't understand the question. Could you clarify a bit?

Thanks.
:asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 25, 2003)

I've never heard of the term, "Traditional Remy Presas Arnis."  I believe Ernesto Presas used the term "Presas Arnis" in the past but I might be wrong on that one.  Could you clarify?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 25, 2003)

I think what he is asking who will preserve the art (Traditional Remy Presas Arnis) vs. help in it's evolution (Modern Arnis)?


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## Rocky (Aug 25, 2003)

I personally don't think it matters, weather you call it traditional Modern Arnis, Modern Arnis 80, I personally call it Progressive Modern Arnis. As long as you acknowledge the linage, that being GM Remy A. Presas, thats whats important. Many of his higher students for what ever reason are on their own, this doesn't mean that they don't recognize their Master.

 The term Modern means just that, so the art should always be changing and growing.

 look at the old man as the trunk of a Great Red Wood, and each of us senior student are branchs, growing in diferent directions, from the same trunk.

Rocky


From the Book of Rock- " From one tree does many a branch grow"


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *
> 
> look at the old man as the trunk of a Great Red Wood, and each of us senior student are branchs, growing in diferent directions, from the same trunk.
> ...



Some of us have more rings than others.  For those of you with no sense of humor, an explanation.  The older a tree is, the more rings it will have from the center out.  In people terms I suppose it means the less hair folicles one has up top.  Well, I guess that spoils the humor aspect of this post.  Must be the educator in me, I guess.  Hmmm.

Yours,
Educatin' Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Aug 25, 2003)

If Renegade is correct on the interpretation of Red Blades question, then I'd say that it matters tremendously, whether you progress, preserve, or both.

I chose the WMAA as my org. because I think that our core curriculum does a very good job of preserving Remy's art. I think that this is important because that allows us to maintain a good "base." It helps us to maintain standards which are so easily lowered when a founder passes away.

After black belt the student can continue their journey into other realms, "progressing" the art, while constantly maintaining their roots.

I just feel that it is important to have the strong "base" before progression, otherwise we "degress" instead. The art will continue to water down as generations move on. Already I have seen some practitioners who teach the art, who are only teaching mere shadows of what Modern Arnis once was. The quality has degressed for some tremendously without Prof. around to whip them into shape. So many instructors already feel that they already "have the art," so they have stopped getting better. Some feel that they don't know who to turn to too get better. They forget that Professor never stopped improving, even when he had no instructor to turn too, and he never stopped progressing his art. However, Professor never forgot his roots, or his base from where he was able to progress from.

I can't comment on everyone else, but I know that I like the direction that the org. I am in, WMAA, is going. We preserve what was taught, maintaining our "base" while we "progress" the art in a manner that Professor would have.  As a practitioner of Modern Arnis and a member of the WMAA, I am continously learning more about my art, what Professor taught, and the roots of the system, while I am continueing to progress in my technique, teaching style, etc. It's a beautiful thing....

So, in a nutshell, I think the WMAA has the best of both worlds. We can all do this, however....as long as we sacrifice our ego's and our need to "have it all" or "create something new" to just learn and improve.

 

PAUL


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## bloodwood (Aug 25, 2003)

A good base is definitely the key. Without it you are just making up things on your own. If you take the basic techniques and fundamental ideas and use them to build on then you are truly practicing Modern Arnis. I also agree that expansion of the art should not begin until after black belt. There is more than enough material to keep you occupied up to and even well beyond lakan.
Any organization that claims to be Modern Arnis should have the basics at it's core, preserve them and make them a requirement for advancement in that organization. Know the basics and the rest starts to come naturally. If a group is doing there own version of Modern Arnis and tries to tweek everything then they are not doing Modern Arnis.

If it isn't broke don't fix it.

The base isn't in need of an upgrade, I think of it as a puzzle that you can take any one piece and build from there. The good thing is that the Modern Arnis puzzle has no edge pieces to hold you back. 

bloodwood


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## bloodwood (Aug 25, 2003)

Where does the traditional end and the modern begin?
Is there a point where you can really tell?


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## Red Blade (Aug 26, 2003)

You are on the right track. Will some groups try to freeze the art in time? Will others try to help it evolve?


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## Rocky (Aug 26, 2003)

Paul sorry but I can't agree with you post for the most part!!!



> chose the WMAA as my org. because I think that our core curriculum does a very good job of preserving Remy's art.



  Very true Tim does a nice job of carring on, he has come a long way in the past 10 -15 years, I hope he keeps up the good work.




> It helps us to maintain standards which are so easily lowered when a founder passes away.



True to a point and I hope Tim keeps it this way. However I find that somewhat insulting! You live less then 20 minutes away come take a look at my green belt requirements then tell me where you stand! on that statement.



> After black belt the student can continue their journey into other realms, "progressing" the art, while constantly
> maintaining their roots.



Not a bad rule just remember some of us have different roots under Remy!!



> just feel that it is important to have the strong "base" before progression, otherwise we "degress" instead. The art will continue to water down as generations move on.



 Actually the art has been watered down in the last 10 years before Remy died. Don't beleave me just look at the reason Remy started teaching what he refered to as tapi tapi. Don't understand what I am talking about here?? Maybe  its because you are just a youngster in the realm of Modern Arnis, and have no ideal of the way Remy use to teach, in the pre- summer camp era.



> Already I have seen some practitioners who teach the art, who are only teaching mere shadows of what Modern Arnis once was.



 Again my statement here will probably get me slammed but I pretty much think this about 90% of the people that teach Modern Arnis.





> The quality has degressed for some tremendously without Prof. around to whip them into shape.



 This will happen in any art, but keep in mind that Remy didn't whip many of his instructors in shape when he should have years ago.



> They forget that Professor never stopped improving, even when he had no instructor to turn too, and he never stopped progressing his art.



 Do you always think Remy was as good as he acheived later in life. He improve until the end so why shouldn't others do the same. Granite some who don't have the ability will try but time usually has a way of weeding them out. Remy once told me in the middle of a really bad arguement we had at my moms house, when I was complaining about a guy he was promoting to 4th degree out in New England I think, just before we shot his first training tape. He gave the guy a 4th degree becuase he had a huge school over 300 Karate students, and man this guy couldn't even puch correctly and I swear to you I am not egagerating on his lack of ability. Nonetheless Remy said something that I though was B.S at the time, but the old man was smarted then I was at my ripe old age of 17  He said Rocky what I give you later in life people will search you out to get that knowledge from you, GM Buot once told me this too, of course I never beleaved them, but now it seems thay were right, I have people seeking private training all the time, go figure, these old guys are pretty smart.



> I can't comment on everyone else, but I know that I like the direction that the org. I am in, WMAA, is going



 This is good, Tim is a good guy, lots of fun to hang with, and a hell of a dance, ask him about the little dance showdown he and one of my students had about 10 years ago in a night club in Buffalo.:rofl: 

 Anyway I told Jim Birchfield a truely awesome Martial Artist here in Michigan, who started his Arnis traiing under me, then went into the internal arts, that Tim would eventually be a very good Eskrimador. And the reason being is that 10 years ago before the video training craze hit, Tim was learning from everywher he could, videos, books, seminars, instead of just waiting for Remy to spoon feed him!! So keep in midn that his root maybe Modern Arnis but he grew from lots of different firtalization if you will. 



> We preserve what was taught, maintaining our "base" while we "progress" the art in a manner that Professor would have



 How do you know how Remy would have done it he changed his ways many times before your instructor even got involved, that I know of, of course he probably changed it many times before I started in 1977, and god knows how many times his way changed before you got started.

 In a nut shell all the differant ways going on know are Remys way, I teach totally differant than Tim or anyone else, because it was the way Remy taught me. So who is anyone else to tell me I am wrong. Like I said its not my business to tell Tim how he should run his oranization, Or Master Anderson, or anyone, nor should they tell me. As far as ability goes that is a differant subject, I often get in trouble for telling people what I think, but if you ask me I should be honest I think. But running an organization is a differant thing.



> So, in a nutshell, I think the WMAA has the best of both worlds. We can all do this, however....as long as we sacrifice our ego's and our need to "have it all" or "create something new" to just learn and improve



 Thats great, if you really want to make the WMAA a great organization, just keep learning from Tim and others and continue to help him keep the quality up, and time will straighten everything else up.

Rocky


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## Cruentus (Aug 26, 2003)

After reading your post, it appears that we agree more then we disagree.

There are only 2 points of actual "disagreement."

#1 Standards: I do believe that they have gone down in some schools and some Orgs. You told me to look at you green belt requirements and see how I feel about that. But then you go on to say "that goes for about 90% of the people out there" when responding to my comment that people are teaching mere shadows of Modern Arnis.

So, I think that we are in agreement more then it looks like. If 90% of the people are teaching mere shadows of the art, as you say, and none of these people match Remy Presas' skill, then it is clear that for many the "standards" have gone down. I think that the standards are not where they should be for some, and I think you can agree with me here.

Now, I said the WMAA is maintaining standards, but this does not mean we are the only ones with standards. You may have very high standards for your students as well. So I didn't mean to say that "others," like yourself, don't have standards; I think that is where there was disagreement when I didn't intend for my comment to be taken that way. So I don't think we really disagree on this point.

#2 Our second point of disagreement lies where you believe the art was being "watered down" over the last 10 years. I disagree. Now, for some I do believe that they mistakenly only focus on certain aspects of the art, missing the entire picture. I think that Remy changed focus', as he always did, but that in itself didn't "water down" the art. Perhaps Remy was less demanding on his students in his older age, but I don't believe that would have watered down the art either. I think that the students themselves "watered down the art" if anything. I think that there are students who only trained certain aspects, and others who needed to be "spoon fed" as you say who have not made it their own. Maybe Remy being less demanding on his students facilitated this, but I don;t blame him. I blame the studetns. Regardless, when Remy was alive, he could clear up all of this. And when he was alive, he was available for those who seeked to learn "the big picture." Now that he is gone, if we don't maintain standards ourselves, we will only go downhill from here.

But other then those 2 things, I don't see Major disagreement in anything else, other then perhaps other small details.

So, I respect your viewpoint, and we seem to understand each other pretty well.
:asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 27, 2003)

I liked *PAUL*'s answer but also see a lot of sense in *Rocky*'s response.


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