# Gracie matches and the UFC



## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

There has been some debate as to the kinds of fights the Gracies were challenging other top level fighters to and that includes their fighting events such as the UFC. As some people have pointed out, the UFC and the rules that the Gracies were proposing for their fights were not rules that favored the Gracie system, they were just rules that allowed just about every and any fighting system. I would have to agree that the rules did not favor the Gracie system but I will say this. The Gracies trained to fight in matches where both striking and grappling was allowed. Some, I would say perhaps many of the fighters they challenged were top level kickboxers and people who trained to fight in matches where only striking was allowed. Therefore they did not train to fight in matches that allowed both striking and grappling like the Gracies did and so that is why they turned down the challenges, they knew they would lose against the Gracies because they didn't train to fight in matches where their opponent was allowed to tie them up and neutralize their striking ability. On the other hand, the Gracies did not train to fight in matches where that wasn't allowed and so they would no doubt lose if they fought under those rules. So while the rules that the Gracies were proposing didn't particularly favor their style, they were rules that the Gracies were at least used to fighting under.


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## jezr74 (May 18, 2015)




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## Chris Parker (May 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been some debate as to the kinds of fights the Gracies were challenging other top level fighters to and that includes their fighting events such as the UFC. As some people have pointed out, the UFC and the rules that the Gracies were proposing for their fights were not rules that favored the Gracie system, they were just rules that allowed just about every and any fighting system. I would have to agree that the rules did not favor the Gracie system but I will say this. The Gracies trained to fight in matches where both striking and grappling was allowed. Some, I would say perhaps many of the fighters they challenged were top level kickboxers and people who trained to fight in matches where only striking was allowed. Therefore they did not train to fight in matches that allowed both striking and grappling like the Gracies did and so that is why they turned down the challenges, they knew they would lose against the Gracies because they didn't train to fight in matches where their opponent was allowed to tie them up and neutralize their striking ability. On the other hand, the Gracies did not train to fight in matches where that wasn't allowed and so they would no doubt lose if they fought under those rules. So while the rules that the Gracies were proposing didn't particularly favor their style, they were rules that the Gracies were at least used to fighting under.



What?


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## Transk53 (May 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been some debate as to the kinds of fights the Gracies were challenging other top level fighters to and that includes their fighting events such as the UFC. As some people have pointed out, the UFC and the rules that the Gracies were proposing for their fights were not rules that favored the Gracie system, they were just rules that allowed just about every and any fighting system. I would have to agree that the rules did not favor the Gracie system but I will say this. The Gracies trained to fight in matches where both striking and grappling was allowed. Some, I would say perhaps many of the fighters they challenged were top level kickboxers and people who trained to fight in matches where only striking was allowed. Therefore they did not train to fight in matches that allowed both striking and grappling like the Gracies did and so that is why they turned down the challenges, they knew they would lose against the Gracies because they didn't train to fight in matches where their opponent was allowed to tie them up and neutralize their striking ability. On the other hand, the Gracies did not train to fight in matches where that wasn't allowed and so they would no doubt lose if they fought under those rules. So while the rules that the Gracies were proposing didn't particularly favor their style, they were rules that the Gracies were at least used to fighting under.



I guess you know a guy who knows one of them then. So the Gracies favoured their rules on fighting style. And? Who wouldn't in that position


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## Tony Dismukes (May 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been some debate as to the kinds of fights the Gracies were challenging other top level fighters to and that includes their fighting events such as the UFC. As some people have pointed out, the UFC and the rules that the Gracies were proposing for their fights were not rules that favored the Gracie system, they were just rules that allowed just about every and any fighting system. I would have to agree that the rules did not favor the Gracie system but I will say this. The Gracies trained to fight in matches where both striking and grappling was allowed. Some, I would say perhaps many of the fighters they challenged were top level kickboxers and people who trained to fight in matches where only striking was allowed. Therefore they did not train to fight in matches that allowed both striking and grappling like the Gracies did and so that is why they turned down the challenges, they knew they would lose against the Gracies because they didn't train to fight in matches where their opponent was allowed to tie them up and neutralize their striking ability. On the other hand, the Gracies did not train to fight in matches where that wasn't allowed and so they would no doubt lose if they fought under those rules. So while the rules that the Gracies were proposing didn't particularly favor their style, they were rules that the Gracies were at least used to fighting under.


Pretty much. Despite what some detractors might claim, the rules did not favor grapplers over strikers or BJJ practitioners in general over other martial artists. The biggest advantage the Gracies had in the beginning was that they actually had significant experience in full-contact matches which allowed both striking and grappling. Once other stylists acquired that experience, much of the advantage dissipated.

(Another, related, advantage was that they had much more experience fighting against practitioners of other styles than representatives of other styles had in fighting against BJJ exponents. This advantage also went away after a while.)


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## Steve (May 18, 2015)

There were several top judo, sambo, shoot fighting and wrestling guys in the early ufcs.  Truthfully, the guy who had the most experience in an Mma like environment was frank shamrock.  His background was about as well suited for Mma as could be at that time.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 18, 2015)

Steve said:


> There were several top judo, sambo, shoot fighting and wrestling guys in the early ufcs.  Truthfully, the guy who had the most experience in an Mma like environment was frank shamrock.  His background was about as well suited for Mma as could be at that time.


I think you mean *Ken* Shamrock. Frank came later.


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## Steve (May 18, 2015)

Yeah.  Thanks.  The elder shamrock.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PhotonGuy (May 18, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Pretty much. Despite what some detractors might claim, the rules did not favor grapplers over strikers or BJJ practitioners in general over other martial artists. The biggest advantage the Gracies had in the beginning was that they actually had significant experience in full-contact matches which allowed both striking and grappling. Once other stylists acquired that experience, much of the advantage dissipated.


That's exactly what I was saying. The Gracies were experienced in matches with both striking and grappling. Clearly they would have an advantage if they were to fight under those rules against somebody who only had experience in matches where just striking was allowed.


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## Buka (May 18, 2015)

The Gracies - most opinions are probably based on what's read online.

Then there are opinions of those who have trained with them.


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## drop bear (May 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's exactly what I was saying. The Gracies were experienced in matches with both striking and grappling. Clearly they would have an advantage if they were to fight under those rules against somebody who only had experience in matches where just striking was allowed.




Which was kind of the point they were trying to make.


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## Hanzou (May 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There has been some debate as to the kinds of fights the Gracies were challenging other top level fighters to and that includes their fighting events such as the UFC. As some people have pointed out, the UFC and the rules that the Gracies were proposing for their fights were not rules that favored the Gracie system, they were just rules that allowed just about every and any fighting system. I would have to agree that the rules did not favor the Gracie system but I will say this. The Gracies trained to fight in matches where both striking and grappling was allowed. Some, I would say perhaps many of the fighters they challenged were top level kickboxers and people who trained to fight in matches where only striking was allowed. Therefore they did not train to fi ght in matches that allowed both striking and grappling like the Gracies did and so that is why they turned down the challenges, they knew they would lose against the Gracies because they didn't train to fight in matches where their opponent was allowed to tie them up and neutralize their striking ability. On the other hand, the Gracies did not train to fight in matches where that wasn't allowed and so they would no doubt lose if they fought under those rules. So while the rules that the Gracies were proposing didn't particularly favor their style, they were rules that the Gracies were at least used to fighting under.



It's important to remember the culture of martial arts at the time. It's really telling when you look at Black Belt magazine c.1992 vs Black Belt magazine c.1994 for example. It went from comsidering the street applicability of Chinese water boxing to grappling 24/7. The entire culture around martial arts changed practically overnight. Most martial artists didn't even consider ground fighting an important part of fighting, and that included arts like Judo where ground fighting was present. Most figured that if you just punch and kick enough, a grappler would eventually stop grabbing you.

The Gracies changed MA forever. And frankly, they changed it for the better. They gave it a standard to be tested against, something that was sorely needed.


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## punisher73 (May 20, 2015)

It wasn't so much the rule set that favored grapplers, but the environment of the octagon in general.  One of the biggest complaints that I heard from early strikers was the floor was very padded and was difficult to move around effectively.

Also, the fact that Rorion hand picked everyone who fought in the first couple UFC's has always been suspect.  It has been discussed before that he only picked fighters he knew they could beat to showcase GJJ.  I can't remember his name, but there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce.

Not saying this is "the truth", but perception by both grapplers and strikers alike in the early days.


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## elder999 (May 20, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce..


 
Benny Urquidez?


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## Drose427 (May 20, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> It wasn't so much the rule set that favored grapplers, but the environment of the octagon in general.  One of the biggest complaints that I heard from early strikers was the floor was very padded and was difficult to move around effectively.
> 
> Also, the fact that Rorion hand picked everyone who fought in the first couple UFC's has always been suspect.  It has been discussed before that he only picked fighters he knew they could beat to showcase GJJ.  I can't remember his name, but there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce.
> 
> Not saying this is "the truth", but perception by both grapplers and strikers alike in the early days.



I heard this somewhere and i believe i heard they had doubts about letting Ken shamrock fight because of his extensive wrestling


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## drop bear (May 20, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Benny Urquidez?



Yeah but I think George dilman also was suggesting he was not allowed in. Cos of the no touch ko being unfair.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> It's important to remember the culture of martial arts at the time. It's really telling when you look at Black Belt magazine c.1992 vs Black Belt magazine c.1994 for example. It went from comsidering the street applicability of Chinese water boxing to grappling 24/7. The entire culture around martial arts changed practically overnight. Most martial artists didn't even consider ground fighting an important part of fighting, and that included arts like Judo where ground fighting was present. Most figured that if you just punch and kick enough, a grappler would eventually stop grabbing you.
> 
> The Gracies changed MA forever. And frankly, they changed it for the better. They gave it a standard to be tested against, something that was sorely needed.



Yes at one time grappling was viewed with heavy skepticism and the Gracies did change MA forever and I would agree it was for the better.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I heard this somewhere and i believe i heard they had doubts about letting Ken shamrock fight because of his extensive wrestling



I don't think somebody would've been turned down because of a wrestling background that they had as the Gracies were able to quite easily beat wrestlers. The reason why the Gracies were able to beat wrestlers is because wrestlers win by pinning and thus they train to defend against a pin. While such training is really helpful to avoid being pinned its useless, even detrimental, at defending against how the Gracies would win, by submission holds. One thing a wrestler would do when their opponent is on top of them is turn on their front and give their back to their opponent and while that might stop a pin, its just asking to be choked out if you're up against a Gracie.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't think somebody would've been turned down because of a wrestling background that they had as the Gracies were able to quite easily beat wrestlers. The reason why the Gracies were able to beat wrestlers is because wrestlers win by pinning and thus they train to defend against a pin. While such training is really helpful to avoid being pinned its useless, even detrimental, at defending against how the Gracies would win, by submission holds. One thing a wrestler would do when their opponent is on top of them is turn on their front and give their back to their opponent and while that might stop a pin, its just asking to be choked out if you're up against a Gracie.



That has turned around though.


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## Hanzou (May 21, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> It wasn't so much the rule set that favored grapplers, but the environment of the octagon in general.  One of the biggest complaints that I heard from early strikers was the floor was very padded and was difficult to move around effectively.
> 
> Also, the fact that Rorion hand picked everyone who fought in the first couple UFC's has always been suspect.  It has been discussed before that he only picked fighters he knew they could beat to showcase GJJ.  I can't remember his name, but there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce.
> 
> Not saying this is "the truth", but perception by both grapplers and strikers alike in the early days.



Yeah, I don't buy any of that.

Even in modern MMA, guys who lack takedown and grappling skills get rolled over. Fighters with superior grappling skills still tend to do better. Look at Coture vs Toomey. Toomey, a former heavyweight boxer, was probably the last "pure" style competitor in the UFC, and his fight lasted like 10 seconds. Couture simply took him down and subbed him, just like Royce did in early UFC.

Rousey is another example. Her grappling skills are on a completely different level than her competition, so just like it was with the Gracies in early MMA, once she has you on the ground you're pretty much finished. What's funny about that is women's MMA was moving towards mostly kickboxing thanks to Csrano and Cyborg. Rousey came along and forced everyone to go back and re-evaluate grappling again.

I would doubt any story that says that the Gracie's stacked the UFC in their favor. It isn't like there was a fighter out there complaining that the Gracie's wouldn't let him fight in their tournament. It wasn't like there was some Kung fu guy sitting outside a Gjj school waiting for Royce or Rickson to fight him.


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## Buka (May 21, 2015)

Art Davie started the UFC. He was originally calling it The War of the Worlds. The idea stemmed from a question constantly asked back in my time, "Who would win, a boxer or a wrestler?"

The venue they found was Denver Colorado. First fighter Art Davie got to sign was a Denver home town hero, Pat Smith, who had just won the Sabaki Challenge. Then he ran into a problem, people he asked didn't want to fight when they heard the rules - which were pretty much no rules. 

Art Davie then took out quarter page ads in Black Belt Magazine, Inside Karate and Inside Kung Fu touting a 50,000 dollar prize for a full contact, no holds barred tournament.First guy who called was Keven Rossier, a WKA champion kickboxer (if you watch the first UFC he's a fat, out of shape brawler, but he was a WKA champ)

Second guy they got was Ken Shamrock. Art Davie called him after learning about his fight history in Japan. Shamrock said yes right away.

Art Davie called Ernesto Hoost next, but he had a conflicting fight card when UFC1 was scheduled, Hoost gave him Gerard Gordeau's name and Gordeau, who would fight anyone, anywhere, said "sure."

Davie reached out to Benny the Jet, who wanted no part of it, saying he was a professional and the other guys weren't in his class."

Art Davie wanted a boxer in the mix so he called Joe Frazier's gym in Philly. Nobody was interested. The only boxers he could find who were interested were Leon Spinks and Bonecrusher Smith, both of whom wanted an appearance fee of a hundred thousand bucks. (outside the fifty grand to the winner) Davie enentually got Art Jameson, a cruiser weight with a 29 and 5 record.

Davie called John Jacques from the American Sumo association and landed Telia Tuli. (cost Davie asix thousand appearance fee)

The ONLY fighter Rorian Gracie picked was Royce Gracie, much to Art Davies shock. He expected Rorian to pick Rickson as the fighter to represent the Gracies.  Anytime Davie mentioned what fighters he was contacting, Rorian replied in the same way, "I don't care, get whoever you want."

That's the way it was, guys.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 21, 2015)

One thing is for sure Buka that was a landmark event and changed perceptions on martial training!


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## punisher73 (May 21, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Benny Urquidez?



It wasn't him.  It was some European guy, if I remember right, Sambo was his background.


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## punisher73 (May 21, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I don't buy any of that.
> 
> Even in modern MMA, guys who lack takedown and grappling skills get rolled over. Fighters with superior grappling skills still tend to do better. Look at Coture vs Toomey. Toomey, a former heavyweight boxer, was probably the last "pure" style competitor in the UFC, and his fight lasted like 10 seconds. Couture simply took him down and subbed him, just like Royce did in early UFC.
> 
> ...



I don't think it would have changed much of the outcome either.  

But, as I said.  The environment was set up by the Gracies to favor their style of grappling.  Padded ring, small enclosure to prevent lots of movement.  This is one of the complaints that many strikers had in the early UFC's.


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## punisher73 (May 21, 2015)

Buka said:


> Art Davie started the UFC. He was originally calling it The War of the Worlds. The idea stemmed from a question constantly asked back in my time, "Who would win, a boxer or a wrestler?"
> 
> The venue they found was Denver Colorado. First fighter Art Davie got to sign was a Denver home town hero, Pat Smith, who had just won the Sabaki Challenge. Then he ran into a problem, people he asked didn't want to fight when they heard the rules - which were pretty much no rules.
> 
> ...



I have heard other stories by others as well.  It was not known until later that Rorion helped put together the early UFC.  By then, there were stories of people who had striking/grappling experience that were saying that they were turned down by Art Davie.  Which story sounds better for your marketing?  That you took on ALL people who wanted to be in it, or that applicants were screened to highlight GJJ?  As with all things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  Even if nothing else, the Gracies knew ahead of time everyone in the competition and were able to strategize their approach.  Even Royce did an early interview talking about why he chose to wear the gi and that the people in the UFC weren't familiar with it and he could use it against them like he did Shamrock.

The Gracies are VERY good at marketing and sold the American public some stuff that is still believed today.  One of their "marketing" things was how Rickson Gracie was 400-0, then suddenly a video goes onto the internet of Rickson losing in a Sambo match to Ron Tripp.  The Gracie's immediately started saying that Rickson didn't know the rules etc.  even though he had competed in Sambo matches before.

The Gracies would  have you believe that they are the source of BJJ and that all other lineages came through them via Carlos/Helio Gracie.  This is also false.  In fact, there are other Brazilians that learned JJJ and modified it close to the way the Gracies had.  If you look at the early Gracie curriculum, the self-defense portion looks like any other TMA.  Rolls was the Gracie that revised the art into more of what we see today by training with Sambo and Wrestlers adding wrestling takedowns and leg/ankle locks.  Rolls was Rickson's main influence.


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## Buka (May 21, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> I can't remember his name, but there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce.
> 
> Not saying this is "the truth", but perception by both grapplers and strikers alike in the early days.


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## Buka (May 21, 2015)

_"I can't remember his name, but there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce."_

Nah. The problerm Art Davies had with the first UFC show was finding fighters. He sent letters and phone calls out to everyone, and ran ads in every Martial magazine that mattered. Back then, as well as now for that matter, a lot of Martial Arts guys talk a good fight. Plus, the rules were a shock to everyone. No holds barred? No judges? People just didn't want to fight. Can't say I blame them.

And a lot of folks didn't think this event was actually going to take place. Art Davies contacted Dan Gable by phone message and letter, and never got a reply. For those younger guys, look him up. Maybe the best wrestler there ever was. NOBODY got turned down, heck, they couldn't find guys who would step up and agree to such no-rules madness.


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## PhotonGuy (May 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> PhotonGuy said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think somebody would've been turned down because of a wrestling background that they had as the Gracies were able to quite easily beat wrestlers. The reason why the Gracies were able to beat wrestlers is because wrestlers win by pinning and thus they train to defend against a pin. While such training is really helpful to avoid being pinned its useless, even detrimental, at defending against how the Gracies would win, by submission holds. One thing a wrestler would do when their opponent is on top of them is turn on their front and give their back to their opponent and while that might stop a pin, its just asking to be choked out if you're up against a Gracie.
> ...



That depends. In a wrestling match its good to turn on your front while on the mat as being on your back is the last position you want to be in because that's how you get pinned. As for being choked out from behind that's not a problem since choking isn't allowed in wrestling. What's good or bad in a fight depends on the rules.


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## ShotoNoob (May 23, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Most martial artists didn't even consider ground fighting an important part of fighting, and that included arts like Judo where ground fighting was present. Most figured that if you just punch and kick enough, a grappler would eventually stop grabbing you.
> 
> The Gracies changed MA forever. And frankly, they changed it for the better. They gave it a standard to be tested against, something that was sorely needed.


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I think the statement in your first Paragraph is true.  Of those who practice martial arts as a sport, basically trying to out-react what they are accustomed to seeing in front of them.  I think the correct way for a striker to approach the ground fighting thread is to batter the grappler with strikes just as you say.  But to say that ground fighting or grappling is not seriously considered would be a failure of any traditional martial artist.
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I definitely agree that the Gracie's made a huge contribution by presenting the challenge of the BJJ stylist.  Excellent reality testing, IMO.  HOWEVER, the serious traditional martial artist would not, imo, need the Gracie's example.  Traditional martial arts as a whole was always designed to handle all kinds of physical threats.  The loss is in the understanding on how traditional martial arts addresses the issue.


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## ShotoNoob (May 23, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> ...
> The Gracies are VERY good at marketing and sold the American public some stuff that is still believed today.  One of their "marketing" things was how Rickson Gracie was 400-0, then suddenly a video goes onto the internet of Rickson losing in a Sambo match to Ron Tripp.  The Gracie's immediately started saying that Rickson didn't know the rules etc.  even though he had competed in Sambo matches before.


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Although I just posted that the Gracie's made an invaluable contribution to MMA and added the grappling threat as excellent reality testing in a full contact environment, I would also say what the Gracie's really excelled at was MARKETING.
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My position, based on my own training & consultation with traditional martial artists in my local, is that the potency of the Gracie's and their BJJ is way over-rated.  The myth of the striker being typically vulnerable to the closing-the-distance gambits promoted by the Gracie's, is by traditional martial arts standards, HOGWASH.  IMO and by my experience.
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See clip below of very recent MMA bout:




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Here we see the Gracie use of boxing footwork retreat evasion (combined with some turning head movement) along with jabbing like feints meant to distract or ward off the striking opponent....TOTALLY USELESS.
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The striker opponent uses a classic boxing gambit of lunging forward and throwing a long overhand right which out distances Gracie's reactive evasion tactic & head movement, completely overpowering the jabbing ward off by Gracie.
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You'll never convince me that the standard tactic used by Gracie's opponent is some newly- learned boxing tactic that came along only after the Gracie's prevailed in the early UFC....


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## ShotoNoob (May 23, 2015)

The Gracie's evolution of BJJ as practical grappling style is great.  A watershed for MMA
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Did Gracie BJJ ever eclipse the competent traditional karate stylist?  Never.
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And Machida's loss to Luke Rockhold is the perfect illustration of what I am advocating.


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## ShotoNoob (May 23, 2015)

Oh, and big change from those Gracie demo vids that MT posters put up to contradict my position.  Gracie striker opponent is not walking around with his hands down, passively waiting for the Gracie BJJ stylist to run him over....  Nor is he completely intimidated by the threat of a takedown or put off by those Gracie Jab / Feints.  Get Real is right.....


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## ShotoNoob (May 23, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> ...Rousey is another example. Her grappling skills are on a completely different level than her competition, so just like it was with the Gracies in early MMA, once she has you on the ground you're pretty much finished. What's funny about that is women's MMA was moving towards mostly kickboxing thanks to Csrano and Cyborg. Rousey came along and forced everyone to go back and re-evaluate grappling again.


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I took the part of your quote I can agree with.  Rousey is a world class athlete & dedicated judo stylist, with Olympic credentials.  It's not grappling that she's forcing to be re-evaluated, it's the very, very steep climb required to attain her level of skill.
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IMO, the female athletes we have in the UFC are just not up to the task.  They just don't have her prodigy genetics plus degree of training.  Rousey is a formidable striker by MMA standards.  Boxing experts may disagree, but like K-Man complained about the average Shotokan karateka, how many professional boxers do we see stepping up to take on R. Rousey?


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## Hanzou (May 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I think the statement in your first Paragraph is true.  Of those who practice martial arts as a sport, basically trying to out-react what they are accustomed to seeing in front of them.  I think the correct way for a striker to approach the ground fighting thread is to batter the grappler with strikes just as you say.  But to say that ground fighting or grappling is not seriously considered would be a failure of any traditional martial artist.
> |
> I definitely agree that the Gracie's made a huge contribution by presenting the challenge of the BJJ stylist.  Excellent reality testing, IMO.  HOWEVER, the serious traditional martial artist would not, imo, need the Gracie's example.  Traditional martial arts as a whole was always designed to handle all kinds of physical threats.  The loss is in the understanding on how traditional martial arts addresses the issue.



And yet 20+ years later no traditional martial arts has stepped to the plate to prove that we've been worshipping the wrong gods.

The problem with adhering to tradition is that human being come up with new innovations all the time. We're an inventive and adaptive species. To say that some ancient fighting art has some sort of answer for anything that can come at it is simply nonsense. Your traditional art was created for a specific time and a specific place. It was not created for the modern era, where various types of fighting knowledge is shared at a breakneck pace, or where you encounter people from a variety of backgrounds and countries.

Its like saying I got it wrong with my Mercedes E250, and that I'd be better off driving a Model T to work everyday.


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## ShotoNoob (May 24, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> And yet 20+ years later no traditional martial arts has stepped to the plate to prove that we've been worshipping the wrong gods.


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That's a good argument, yet a purely rhetorical one.



Hanzou said:


> The problem with adhering to tradition is that human being come up with new innovations all the time. We're an inventive and adaptive species. To say that some ancient fighting art has some sort of answer for anything that can come at it is simply nonsense.


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Now that is purely rhetorical.  And over-generalized statement that is completely vague.  And of course, the hinge is defining what "traditional" means.


Hanzou said:


> Your traditional art was created for a specific time and a specific place. It was not created for the modern era, where various types of fighting knowledge is shared at a breakneck pace, or where you encounter people from a variety of backgrounds and countries.


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Like the scientific discoveries of a hundred years ago are automatically outdated.  The laws of Calculus don't work in 2015...   My answer is rhetorical, yet exactly points out the complete absence of any substantiation in your premise = conclusion argument.  Great for keeping discussions going NOWHERE.  Oh well, it's a blog...



Hanzou said:


> Its like saying I got it wrong with my Mercedes E250, and that I'd be better off driving a Model T to work everyday.


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Right....zzzzz


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## ShotoNoob (May 24, 2015)

A better post would have been confirming how the 'great' Gracie competitor experienced massive fail against rudimentary MMA striking gambit.  Too much too ask when my content is involved, apparently.....
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I'm tempted to post a 1-step illustration of how to deal with the MMA striker who bowled Gracie over.  I too afraid I'll be met with, 1-steps are outdated, 1-steps are kihon & don't work in real fighting, 1-steps are a fixed pattern and aren't "alive," only actual sparring trains you to fight, the Japanese karates have moved too far away from Okinawan karate to be effective in self defense, 1 steps lack "pressure testing," tradition is not enough, etc., etc, etc.
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One thing is for sure.  All that Gracie expertise which has more than 2 decades to prove itself in MMA and to evolve as well--underwent massive fail against a standard MMA striking assault employing a single strike.  So what do I know?


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## ShotoNoob (May 24, 2015)

MATT THORTON VS. K-MAN / MY DREAM MMA MATCH.
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For the TMA skeptics, here's a great protagonist.  Great rhetoric.  Great half truths.  Great proponent of BJJ, etc.  _*Hey K-Man, there is no such thing as an advanced technique--according to Matt Thornton.*_   Of course in a sense this is true.  Then again, only half-true.  And are we talking concepts, principles, tactics, techniques?  This kind of vague stuff with unchallenged premises then leading to absolute conclusions, including what the Gracie marketing arguments used, is true but again half true.  Enjoy a true spin master with a solid following.




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In a nutshell, Thorton espouses you learn the physical skill of basics and essentially spar over &over & over against resisting opponents until you get very good athletically.  He really believes that only actual athletic contact can one prepare for real fighting skill wise.  Hence the kung fu guy who never trains against against the BJJ guy, the kung fu guy has no clue of what to do.  the kung fu guy is completely stuck in "kungfu" land fighting against other kung fu land opponents and that's all he can react to....  And Matt Thorton says he has thousands of e-mails from kungfu-land practitioners who confirm their failure just as Matt Thorton claims.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Feb 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I don't buy any of that.
> 
> Even in modern MMA, guys who lack takedown and grappling skills get rolled over. Fighters with superior grappling skills still tend to do better. Look at Coture vs Toomey. Toomey, a former heavyweight boxer, was probably the last "pure" style competitor in the UFC, and his fight lasted like 10 seconds. Couture simply took him down and subbed him, just like Royce did in early UFC.
> 
> ...


I know this is a very old post and this fight hadnt happened when it was posted but holly holm vs ronda rousey. Holm a former boxing and kickboxing world champion destroyed rousey and rousey had her on he ground a few times and couldn't do anything with it


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## Hanzou (Feb 24, 2016)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> I know this is a very old post and this fight hadnt happened when it was posted but holly holm vs ronda rousey. Holm a former boxing and kickboxing world champion destroyed rousey and rousey had her on he ground a few times and couldn't do anything with it



Because Holly Holm trained specifically to shut down Rousey's grappling style. It's not like Holm came off the street with zero grappling training and dismantled Rousey. She spent hours and hours with expert grappling coaches methodically dissecting Rousey's Judo technique, and learning how best to negate her grappling advantage and utilize her striking advantage.

Rousey on the other hand had a pretty shoddy boxing coach.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2016)

So… what you're saying is… Holm trained in "anti-grappling"…? And it beat a grappler? 

Okay, I'm shocked… ha!


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## Hanzou (Feb 26, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> So… what you're saying is… Holm trained in "anti-grappling"…? And it beat a grappler?
> 
> Okay, I'm shocked… ha!



Yes. Fortunately for her it's not the "anti-grappling" you see in traditional martial arts.


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## Skullpunch (Mar 6, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yes. Fortunately for her it's not the "anti-grappling" you see in traditional martial arts.



What the fukk is "anti-grappling" anyway?  It sounds like some bullsh!t someone made up in some sad attempt to sell a new fad.

The footwork she used to prevent Ronda from being able to rush in and setup a takedown wasn't "anti-grappling", it was boxing.

Her takedown defense wasn't "anti-grappling", it was wrestling and judo.

Her ground defense wasn't "anti-grappling", it was wrestling and jiujitsu.


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## Hanzou (Mar 6, 2016)

Skullpunch said:


> What the fukk is "anti-grappling" anyway?

























Enjoy.


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## Skullpunch (Mar 6, 2016)

I kinda already knew what you were referring to, and the point I was making is that "anti-grappling" isn't real.  None of the techniques in those videos are part of any legit martial arts system that I know of.  These are all just cash grabs aimed at people who don't want to train legit grappling for whatever reason.  The krav video is the only one showing any techniques that *might* work against someone with a month of real grappling.

The point I was making is that Holly Holm didn't use any such made up thing as "anti-grappling".  She defended takedowns and groundwork with wrestling/judo and bjj, just like everyone else that knows what they're doing.  And her footwork from boxing made it harder for Ronda to get the angles she wanted when she tried to close the distance.  That's all it was.

It's like I said in another thread, when you slip a jab you're not "anti-boxing", you're boxing.  You used one boxing technique to defend against another.  When you sprawl you're not "anti-wrestling".  You're wrestling.  When you escape side control you're not using "anti-jiujitsu", you're using jiujitsu (or wrestling, depending on the escape).


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