# Leung Jan's original art



## zuti car

Leung Jan was the most famous Wing Chun practitioner of all times , on the other hand , we don't know anything about his original art . He had some 10 or 12 students but most of them didn't passed their arts to the next generation . Only one who opened a school and taught wing chun was Chan Wah Shun , but we do not know how his art looked like either . Chan's student Ng Chan So taught a student in Foshan but he mixed his art with Yuen Chan Wan's style . Chan's son Chan Yiu Min obviously mixed his art with some other southern style ( probably Hung Gar) . And of course , there is Yip Man and his "Leung Bik" story , but his students admitted that this story was nothing more than a marketing strategy common at the time ,in fact Yip Man's wing chun share more similarities with Yuen Kai San style than any other .
It is also important to say that fame and popularity for Leung Jan came long after his death ,he became a character of pulp fiction novels and  most of the "facts" about him can be traced to these cheap pocket books , we actually have very little real details about his life . Documents or other evidence about Leung Jan and his life before second part of the republican era do not exist . Is it possible to to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan ?


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## dlcox

zuti car said:


> Leung Jan was the most famous Wing Chun practitioner of all times , on the other hand , we don't know anything about his original art . He had some 10 or 12 students but most of them didn't passed their arts to the next generation . Only one who opened a school and taught wing chun was Chan Wah Shun , but we do not know how his art looked like either . Chan's student Ng Chan So taught a student in Foshan but he mixed his art with Yuen Chan Wan's style . Chan's son Chan Yiu Min obviously mixed his art with some other southern style ( probably Hung Gar) . And of course , there is Yip Man and his "Leung Bik" story , but his students admitted that this story was nothing more than a marketing strategy common at the time ,in fact Yip Man's wing chun share more similarities with Yuen Kai San style than any other .
> It is also important to say that fame and popularity for Leung Jan came long after his death ,he became a character of pulp fiction novels and  most of the "facts" about him can be traced to these cheap pocket books , we actually have very little real details about his life . Documents or other evidence about Leung Jan and his life before second part of the republican era do not exist . Is it possible to to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan ?


 
      Any real historical information that would lend credence to Liang Zan's art of Yongchun Quan would be found with his father. The Liang family ran a military school (I believe in Foshan) where martial arts were taught. If any historical roots are to be found, it would be connected to this school that his father ran and the conflicts that they were involved in during the early 1800's.

      Yongchun Bai He Quan was most likely an influence given that verifiable Opera performers like Li Wen Mao and Dai Fa Mian Jin were reputed to be practitioners of Yongchun Bai He Quan, some say Liang Yi Dai was as well. If Yongchun Bai He Quan was taught at the Liang academy it was undoubtedly altered, if not then what was taught on the Red Boats was simply Yongchun Bai He Quan and whatever was taught at the Liang academy was mixed with it to create what was to become Yongchun.

      Without knowing what was taught at the Liang academy it is all speculation. I'm sure that some documentation exists somewhere, the name of a drill master, style or something. If anyone has the means to investigate I'm sure that there is some form of documentation as most certainly the Qing government would have known of the Liang family military school. It could potentially solve a big piece of the puzzle.


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## Marnetmar

Actually, we do have a glimpse at CWS's style.














In addition, Leung Jan's Gulao village system could give some insight although it's not exactly what he taught in Foshan:






There's some Chi Sau demonstrated in this video that kind of resembles Tai Chi push-hands in a way, kind of like the Pan Nam/Pao Fa Lien/Weng Chun systems.


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## KPM

zuti car said:


> Leung Jan was the most famous Wing Chun practitioner of all times , on the other hand , we don't know anything about his original art . He had some 10 or 12 students but most of them didn't passed their arts to the next generation . Only one who opened a school and taught wing chun was Chan Wah Shun


 
That's not exactly true.  Another student...Wong Wah Sam...taught multiple people in Gu Lao village.  While what Wong taught was not Leung's "original art" in the sense of the same curriculum, I think it was the same art as far as body structure and "flavor."  So we can get a lot clues about what Leung's "original art" might have been like simply by looking at Pin Sun Wing Chun.  And those clues suggest it wasn't that much different from Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.


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## dlcox

KPM said:


> That's not exactly true.  Another student...Wong Wah Sam...taught multiple people in Gu Lao village.  While what Wong taught was not Leung's "original art" in the sense of the same curriculum, I think it was the same art as far as body structure and "flavor."  So we can get a lot clues about what Leung's "original art" might have been like simply by looking at Pin Sun Wing Chun.  And those clues suggest it wasn't that much different from Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.


 
Hi Keith,

I can see both of you and Zuti's points, but we also have to take into consideration the alterations that may have occurred with the lines you presented. It is suspected that either Chan Yiu Min, his wife (who changed the character Yong from Eternal to Beautiful based on her research) or his son altered the art by adding in some other southern art such as Hongjia Quan. Wong Wah Sam is said to have been a practitioner of several southern arts which he blended with Liang Zan's art to create the 12 points. Neither art is that far off IMO from the prototype, but I think that if one is to see what the art was comprised of prior to Liang Zan codifying it we need to look at the Military academy. This is where Liang Zan "Cut His Teeth", so to speak and would undoubtedly have been a major influence into the development of Yongchun. This academy is where many from Fujian came to train in military tactics. Martial arts were taught there and it was owned and operated by the Liang family.

One thing that I find interesting is that the original transmission of Yongchun Bai He Quan was said to be in Sanshi format and Liang Zan passed on his last version of Yongchun in Sanshi format. Sanshi was a traditional method of instruction in the Chinese military. Both methods were employed by militias in several conflicts of the region. Aside from the obvious origins connection between the two, there has to be a link to a person (aside from Liang Zan) or organization that influenced Yongchun's development. My guess would be that this occurred in the Liang family academy, as all oral evidence concerning Liang Zan leads back there prior to the Red Boats.


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## zuti car

Marnetmar said:


> Actually, we do have a glimpse at CWS's style.
> 
> [
> 
> In addition, Leung Jan's Gulao village system could give some insight although it's not exactly what he taught in Foshan:
> 
> .


Like I said , Chan Yiu Min mixed his art with some other southern art to a level where it can hardly be called Wing Chun any more . As for Kolo system , I don't know much about it but some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time told me that Kolo version of the art changed tremendously in content recent  decades , actually since the time Chine "opened" and people started to show interest in that particular style .


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## zuti car

KPM said:


> That's not exactly true.  Another student...Wong Wah Sam...taught multiple people in Gu Lao village.  While what Wong taught was not Leung's "original art" in the sense of the same curriculum, I think it was the same art as far as body structure and "flavor."  So we can get a lot clues about what Leung's "original art" might have been like simply by looking at Pin Sun Wing Chun. * And those clues suggest it wasn't that much different from Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun*.


I believe Yuen Kai San's version of the art is the purest one in a sense of not adopting things from other southern styles


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## dlcox

Oooops! sorry Keith. Part of my post was directed at Marnetmar.


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## geezer

zuti car said:


> I *believe *Yuen Kai San's version of the art is the purest one in a sense of not adopting things from other southern styles



The operative word here is _"belief"._ In the OP you asked, "Is it possible to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan?" the answer is _no. _We can only speculate. 

Besides there is _no such thing_ as an original or "purest" form of the art. Each great master we have knowledge of made significant changes in what and how they taught during their lifetimes. In some cases these were improvements, in others, perhaps not. Historical research and speculation certainly has it's value, but personally I look forwards as well as backwards in my individual search for the best Wing Chun. To be honest, I haven't the ability to master half of what I've learned in my own branch of the Yip Man lineage from my old sifu.


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## zuti car

geezer said:


> The operative word here is _"belief"._ In the OP you asked, "Is it possible to reconstruct or somehow trace the original art of Leung Jan?" the answer is _no. _We can only speculate.
> 
> Besides there is _no such thing_ as an original or "purest" form of the art. Each great master we have knowledge of made significant changes in what and how they taught during their lifetimes. In some cases these were improvements, in others, perhaps not. Historical research and speculation certainly has it's value, but personally I look forwards as well as backwards in my individual search for the best Wing Chun. To be honest, I haven't the ability to master half of what I've learned in my own branch of the Yip Man lineage from my old sifu.


That is what I wrote , I *believe  *, I do not know, I base my opinion on some evidence and logic, but i cannot say anything for sure.  I was also clear about purity , pure in a sense of not mixing wing chun with other arts , not in a sense of some original form of the art , because I totally agree with you that every lineage founder( I don't like word master or grandmaster) made significant changes to his art.


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## geezer

zuti car said:


> That is what I wrote , I *believe  *, I do not know, I base my opinion on some evidence and logic, but i cannot say anything for sure.


 
No problem, Zuti. Your statements seem reasoned and  nothing like the over-the top claimes of a certain "researcher" who has posted here in the past.




zuti car said:


> I was also clear about purity , pure in a sense of not mixing wing chun with other arts , not in a sense of some original form of the art...


 
Purity is another questionable concept that can only be taken so far. As you have pointed out, even "pure" WC emerged from other arts. The so-called "pure" WC from the mid 19th Century may well have roots in older arts such as Wing Chun Bak Hok (Yongchun Bai He) and have been later influenced by a number of southern Chinese fighting arts, the Hakka systems and so on. Certainly in more recent times, prominent practitioners have "borrowed what is useful" long before Bruce Lee made that a catchphrase.



zuti car said:


> I totally agree with you that every lineage founder*( I don't like word master or grandmaster)* made significant changes to his art .


 
I agree that titles like "Grandmaster" have become overused to the poing of inspiring a negative reaction, especially when used outside of one's own lineage. The simple descriptive term "master" as in a master carpenter, musician, etc. doesn't offend me personally, but I can definitely understand your response. Perhaps more neutral terms like "prominent practitioner", or "influential teacher" would be better choices.


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## zuti car

geezer said:


> Purity is another questionable concept that can only be taken so far. As you have pointed out, even "pure" WC emerged from other arts. The so-called "pure" WC from the mid 19th Century may well have roots in older arts such as Wing Chun Bak Hok (Yongchun Bai He) and have been later influenced by a number of southern Chinese fighting arts, the Hakka systems and so on. Certainly in more recent times, prominent practitioners have "borrowed what is useful" long before Bruce Lee made that a catchphrase.
> .



Origin of wing chun will probably stay undiscovered , on the other hand I can say with a lot of certainty that largest portion of the art has its root in White Crane . I am practicing Zonghequan for more than a year now and if would write a description of basic principles and concepts of Zonghe without saying a name of the art , no one could say whether I talk about wing chun or Zonghe because both art share almost the same basic concepts . Expression of these concepts  is different  but both arts must have same origin , because it is impossible , at least that is what I think, that two completely separate arts share such a level of similarity  .






If you watch this old footage of kolo wing chun , around 1:25 there is a short demo of their chi sao , now what I see here is white crane body structure , slightly modified and white crane chi sao .


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## KPM

It is suspected that either Chan Yiu Min, his wife (who changed the character Yong from Eternal to Beautiful based on her research) or his son altered the art by adding in some other southern art such as Hongjia Quan.

---Yes.  I don't think anyone believes that Chan Yiu Min's art is what Leung Jan taught  to Chan Wah Shun.

Wong Wah Sam is said to have been a practitioner of several southern arts which he blended with Liang Zan's art to create the 12 points.

---That's not what they say in Gu Lao village!  The story is that Wong Wah Sam had some rudimentary martial arts training but that Leung Jan was his primary teacher by far.  Fung Lim is the guy that  traveled and studied widely before returning home to Gu Lao and combining things with his village art.  This is the time it is said that the knives were added and we had the "public versions" or  breakouts like the 22 Point version and the 40 Point version.  But in Gu Lao they have always said that Fung Chun was teaching what was taught to him by Wong Wah Sam who taught what was taught to him by Leung Jan. 

 Neither art is that far off IMO from the prototype, but I think that if one is to see what the art was comprised of prior to Liang Zan codifying it we need to look at the Military academy.

---Probably you are correct!  But where are we going to see this?  Start talking "military academy" and the Hung Fa Yi guys are going to raise there hands and start saying..."me!, me!, call on me!"  ;-)  But I don't think any of use would propose that what Leung Jan did was similar to HFY!


One thing that I find interesting is that the original transmission of Yongchun Bai He Quan was said to be in Sanshi format and Liang Zan passed on his last version of Yongchun in Sanshi format.

---Yes, and therefore one logical conclusion could be that when Leung Jan taught in Gu Lao village he returned to the "original" Wing Chun as he had learned it early on, prior to the Red Boats!  So we are still left with having Gu Lao Wing Chun as our biggest clue to what Leung Jan's method might have been like.


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## KPM

Let me also add that the clip of Fung Chun that has been posted here is not very representative of actual Gu Lao Pin Sun Wing Chun.  This was filmed during one of Leung Ting's visits many years ago.  Back then the Gu Lao guys were still very secretive.  Fung Chun essentially showed Leung Ting what he though Leung Ting wanted to see!  What LT wrote in is "Roots & Branches" book is also not very accurate!  You will note that in the clip Fung Chun is stringing several of the short sets together to make it look close to the Ip man SNT form.  He is also pulling both hands back to his chest like in Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun does not typically do this.  The Chi sau section with the guys in a low squat?  I'm not sure what that was!  Not something I have seen in actual Pin Sun WCK!


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## Eric_H

KPM said:


> ---Probably you are correct!  But where are we going to see this?  Start talking "military academy" and the Hung Fa Yi guys are going to raise there hands and start saying..."me!, me!, call on me!"  ;-)  But I don't think any of use would propose that what Leung Jan did was similar to HFY!



Is that supposed to be an insult or something?

*IF* the TWC official Leung Bik story is true (and YM's sons have added weight to their father giving credit to learning things from Leung Bik, I'll leave what it was open to debate) it'd explain why TWC and HFY tend to look more alike than HFY and Moy Yat's WC for example. I just don't know what alive today you would use as representative of "Leung Jan's WC" being the three branches coming from him are so vastly different.


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## Marnetmar

Uhh hasn't it basically been confirmed that Leung Bik never existed and the whole Leung Bik story originated out of the Yip family having a feud with the Yuen family or something like that?


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## Vajramusti

Marnetmar said:


> Uhh hasn't it basically been confirmed that Leung Bik never existed and the whole Leung Bik story originated out of the Yip family having a feud with the Yuen family or something like that?


 

No


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## Kwan Sau

dlcox said:


> One thing that I find interesting is that the original transmission of Yongchun Bai He Quan was said to be in Sanshi format and Liang Zan passed on his last version of Yongchun in Sanshi format. Sanshi was a traditional method of instruction in the Chinese military. Both methods were employed by militias in several conflicts of the region.



So, are "points" (ie. 12 points, or 22 points) the same as saying 'sanshi'? Is Sanshi the same as saying 'san sik' or 'san sao'? Thanks in advance for any clarification.


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## zuti car

KPM said:


> Let me also add that the clip of Fung Chun that has been posted here is not very representative of actual Gu Lao Pin Sun Wing Chun.  This was filmed during one of Leung Ting's visits many years ago.  Back then the Gu Lao guys were still very secretive.  Fung Chun essentially showed Leung Ting what he though Leung Ting wanted to see!  What LT wrote in is "Roots & Branches" book is also not very accurate!  You will note that in the clip Fung Chun is stringing several of the short sets together to make it look close to the Ip man SNT form.  He is also pulling both hands back to his chest like in Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun does not typically do this.  The Chi sau section with the guys in a low squat?  I'm not sure what that was!  Not something I have seen in actual Pin Sun WCK!



Now you are doing the same thing as some other people we have seen over the years , "this is not real thing , no one know the real thing , this is deliberately performed wrong" . Maybe it was perfirmed in an unusual  way  but chi sao session is definitely white crane . Like I said before , some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time said to me tat Kolo wing chun changed a lot in last couple of decades modernized in a way to look more attractive , stuff they didn't have before are added (like butterfly swords) , their history changed ,ect. This is completely normal for China(not only for China) and I have see this so many times before . On the other hand , this not the only wing chun that have strong White Crane flavor , Pao Fa Lien , not HK brunch , but the version from Fosan also look like Crane a lot 

PFL





White Crane


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## zuti car

Marnetmar said:


> Uhh hasn't it basically been confirmed that Leung Bik never existed and the whole Leung Bik story originated out of the Yip family having a feud with the Yuen family or something like that?


Yup , Leung Bik story was created by Leung Sheung and Yip Man in order to give more credibility to Yip Man's wing chun . Connecting a particular style to some famous ancestor who had some superior skill and knowledge is usual thing in CMA , people on the east do not take this things so seriously as do people on the west . Leung Bik is another legendary character , like Ng Mui or Bai Mei . There is no evidence of Leung Bik's existence , no photos, no documents of any kind ( birth or death certificate , tax records, passport , personal ID , nothing) . Leung Bik supposed to live in republican China so it would be easy to find at last some records of him . Even more , Leung Bik was never mentioned by anyone who lived in during his supposed life time , there is no mention of him in personal records or correspondence ,also no mention of him in any other record connected, or even separate from wing chun . This kinds of stories are made with certain purpose , to give people a feeling of exclusiveness , to make them feel better , special because they are doing something other people don't .


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## Marnetmar

^Have your friends that practice Gulao WC made any mentions of what its actual backstory is?


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## zuti car

I am sorry if I led you you to think that my friends are involved in Kolo wing chun , they are not, but WC people in HK know each other , it is not a big community , especially of thous who practice styles out side of Yip Man's brunch . I have  just said what I was told and I have no reason to doubt these people .


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## zuti car

Now , there is another question , If we take Kolo wing chun as the closest one to Leung Jan's original teaching , and we know Chan Wah Shun did some similar stuff because his student Ng Chan So did 3 forms style we can se today in Yiu Choi\Yiu Kai system , how come Yip Man's style, and Yip Man learned from CWS nad Ng Chan So is so much different form Kolo WCK or Yiu Choi\Yiu Kai system( mixed with Yun Chai Wan system) and looks closer to YKS more than any other style , on the other hand we have claims that Yip Man's style is the only or at least the best representative of Leung Jan's original art .


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## dlcox

Kwan Sau said:


> So, are "points" (ie. 12 points, or 22 points) the same as saying 'sanshi'? Is Sanshi the same as saying 'san sik' or 'san sao'? Thanks in advance for any clarification.


Yes, they all basically refer to the same thing.


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## Kwan Sau

dlcox said:


> Yes, they all basically refer to the same thing.



Thank you!


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## KPM

Is that supposed to be an insult or something?

--No, my apologies Eric.  I didn't mean it as an insult at all!  I simply meant that if we are going to equate Leung Jan with a military version of Wing Chun, then that fits into HFY's history and opens up a whole other can of worms...so to speak.

*IF* the TWC official Leung Bik story is true (and YM's sons have added weight to their father giving credit to learning things from Leung Bik, I'll leave what it was open to debate) it'd explain why TWC and HFY tend to look more alike than HFY and Moy Yat's WC for example. I just don't know what alive today you would use as representative of "Leung Jan's WC" being the three branches coming from him are so vastly different.

---I agree.


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## KPM

Kwan Sau said:


> So, are "points" (ie. 12 points, or 22 points) the same as saying 'sanshi'? Is Sanshi the same as saying 'san sik' or 'san sao'? Thanks in advance for any clarification.



Yes.  Point is "dim."  Another word for the short sets is "san dim" or "separate points."  I discovered that most of the Gu Lao people don't like the term "san sik" or "san dim", because it implies just a short movement drill....like doing Bong Sau over and over.  This leads to misunderstandings as to what their short sets are actually like.


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## Kwan Sau

KPM said:


> Yes.  Point is "dim."  Another word for the short sets is "san dim" or "separate points."  I discovered that most of the Gu Lao people don't like the term "san sik" or "san dim", because it implies just a short movement drill....like doing Bong Sau over and over.  This leads to misunderstandings as to what their short sets are actually like.



Thx Keith.
So, they are actually 2 or more movements strung together; drilled over and over? And that constitutes a point or dim...while several points or dim's strung together is more of a classic 'skill drill' concept? Is this an accurate description based on your knowledge of Gu Lao? Thx.


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## KPM

Now you are doing the same thing as some other people we have seen over the years , "this is not real thing , no one know the real thing , this is deliberately performed wrong" .

---Well, this is the problem.  The Gu Lao village guys are well known for teaching a "public" version of their system and keeping the "good stuff" in the family.  They were known for being very secretive about their art until fairly recently.  My first Pin Sun instructor Jim Roselando had a heck of a time trying to figure out what was "authentic" and what was "public version."  When Henry Mui first came to the US and opened a public school he arranged the short sets into 3 "forms" because people in the US were already famililar with Ip Man Wing Chun and 3 forms is what they expected to see.  Jim was one of Henry Mui's close students early on but even then Mui wasn't openly teaching the "real deal".  So it can get rather frustrating and confusing.

 Like I said before , some of my friends from Hong Kong who are involved in Wing Chun for a very long time said to me tat Kolo wing chun changed a lot in last couple of decades modernized in a way to look more attractive , stuff they didn't have before are added (like butterfly swords) , their history changed ,ect.

----Thanks for that info!  That is very interesting.  And again, shows the whole frustration involved in dealing  with a culture who have a rather "flexible" sense of history and a tradition of keeping things secret or changing things and claiming it is "original" and taught by some ancestor.  It all goes back to one fundamental difference in marketing in the East vs. the West.  The favored marketing slogan in the West is..."X is new and improved!"  The favored marketing slogan in the East is..."X is authentic and traditional!"   Neither claim is ever necessarily true.

---So....I've essentially lost interest in really trying to figure out Wing Chun history or in figuring out how some ancestor (including Ip Man) did his Wing Chun.  It may be good for entertainment value, but I don't assign the importance to it that I used to.  I'm more interested in what works well and uses good biomechanics.   Given the advancements in Sports Science an understanding of biomechanics in modern times, this means this is going to be a lineage that has modified and changed things to keep up with updated knowledge and the ways Wing Chun is likely to be used in modern days.   And I have found at least one lineage that does that.....Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.


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## KPM

Kwan Sau said:


> Thx Keith.
> So, they are actually 2 or more movements strung together; drilled over and over? And that constitutes a point or dim...while several points or dim's strung together is more of a classic 'skill drill' concept? Is this an accurate description based on your knowledge of Gu Lao? Thx.



The short sets in Pin Sun are typically at least three different movements together so that  the sequence can be practiced over and over.  When you get to the 2nd level, each of the short sets at that level also teach a specific footwork method.  Each short set will have a two-man drill that goes with it to reinforce the techniques or concepts from the set.  Each short set also has a version that is practiced on the dummy.  And of course each short set has an application in Chi Sau.  So there is much more depth to it than what most non-Pin Sun people mean  when they use the term "San Sik."


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## KPM

zuti car said:


> Now , there is another question , If we take Kolo wing chun as the closest one to Leung Jan's original teaching , and we know Chan Wah Shun did some similar stuff because his student Ng Chan So did 3 forms style we can se today in Yiu Choi\Yiu Kai system , how come Yip Man's style, and Yip Man learned from CWS nad Ng Chan So is so much different form Kolo WCK or Yiu Choi\Yiu Kai system( mixed with Yun Chai Wan system) and looks closer to YKS more than any other style , on the other hand we have claims that Yip Man's style is the only or at least the best representative of Leung Jan's original art .



I think Ip Man WCK looks so close to YKS WCK because Yuen Kay Shan was a much larger influence on him than his students want to admit!  And I completely dismiss any claims that Ip Man's style is the best representative of Leung Jan's original art.  And how can you say Ip Man's method is "so much different from Kolo WCK" but still so similar to YKS WCK?  Other than the organization of the curriculum, most of the differences between Ip Man version and YKS version are the same differences between Ip Man version and Gu Lao version.  And these can be attributed to influences on Ip Man from other sources as well as Ip Man's own changes or innovations.


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## kung fu fighter

I agree with Keith,
                              I feel Kulo pin sun wck is the core blue print of Leung Jan's inner teachings, however,

You guys might also want to have a look into the Lo Kwai chao family wck system, it is said that this system also came from Leung Jan. But i have it from good source that it actually decended from Chan Wah Shun. But never the less it's probably worth investigating. There was a gentleman name Danny chao whom I used to communicate with in Toronto Canada that practiced this system. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago.

Lo Kwai was an early student of Leung Jan, when he first started teaching in around 1950–1960. He was taught a single hand form with four sections, which Lo Family preserves would be later broken down and refined by Wong and Leung during the Opera ban, into the Wing Chun Kuen system we see today.

Curriculum:

Single Form - 4 sections - from Wong Wah Bo
Siu Lien Tao
Chum Kiu
Biu Jee
Bot Gwa Kuen

Muk Yan Jong
Look Dim Boon Gwun
Yee Jee Dao
Hei Gung sets
Technical overview: Some of our kuen kuit and yiu jee for you. As the opponent comes receive ;if he goes escort;if contact is lost move forward;use soft to overcame hard; hard and soft combine as needed; stillness to overcome movement; footwork is to be quick and nimble( teng nuo yee shun shuok); body angle must be changed quickly;hands and feet defend as needed;

Our kuen kuit are also read in relation to others as well as alone. For example, attack the center control the center destroy the center, refers to attcking the centerline but also is about attcking the center of gravity of the opponent joining to and controlling the center of gravity.

Then we use 18 energies. tao=spit,tun=swallow,fao=raise,chum=sink , mo=touch dong=swing,na =adhere,kum=grasp,lao=leak,tong=press,biu=thrust,zhan=vibrate, huai=spiral,juan=roll,shuai=throw,zhi=straight,dap=join,jui=follow.

Yee Jee Kan Yong Ma is the basic stance. The knees are relaxed. We do not clamp. Breathing is very important and leads to a bounce or a spring in the stance.

The wood man form teaches many concepts such s short power,and how to use the waist ,hips and legs. the sections also teach different concepts. Many re concerned with moving from the inside gates to the outside ,moving from outside to inside. Making the bridge on the outside,making the bridge on the inside.

Also we focus on heaven ,man ,earth or high, mid, low. The dummy and weapons tech how to move from high to low to mid both from outside to inside and inside to outside. We also have methods to fight from the low or earth. this for when you are thrown or swept . The methods deal with bringing the opponent down to the ground or how to get up from the ground.

We use a 9 gate method 3 gates inside the opponents arms and 6 outside the opponents arms. We have no blocks but train covering our exposed gates as we move and how to cover gates based on how the opponent moves.

Our system is made up of the 4 forms SNT,CK, BJ and BGK, the wooden man form, the pole form and the knife form.We have several tests you must pass before you can be said to have completed the training. For example with the knives you must be able to absorb the full force of an attack with a kwan dao without moving or losing your stance or structure. This is to show you have learned how to absorb and direct force into the ground.You must be able to demonstrate the short issuing ging with you arm fully outstretched and palm flat on the target. the arm may not bend and the palm may not move as you issue energy.

*The History of Wing Chun According to Lo Kwai - By Chao Tseng-Ming and Brian Scanlon*

Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo. Leung Jan learned 2 different interpretations of wing chun. The small frame from LYT and large frame from WWB. WWB was considered the best fighter of the wing chun group of Opera members. WWB taught 1 form and LYT taught short forms or San Sik.

Leung Jan wanted to combine everything he learned from his 2 Sifu into one complete method. WWB worked with LJ to combine everything into a teachable progressive system. LJ was very educated and wanted to have an organized method for remembering and teaching. The 1 form had 4 parts to it. This was divided into 3+1 forms . This allowed moving of some sections from the begining to the end and allowed the insertion of the material of LYT.

After this the 3 forms of SLT, CK, BJ became more or less set. The Muk Yan Jong, Yee Gee Dao and Look Dim Boon Gwun were not fully set at this point. As they became more set the 4th form was felt to be uneeded as much of what it contained was put into the Jong and Dao. Several san sik came from the 4th form or as some might say the 4th section of the 1 form.

Chan Kwai began learning from Leung Jan . He taught his son and 2 nephews Chao Cheng Lei and Chao Chong Lin. Chao Chong Lin survived and taught his son Chao Jian Yu he taught a few others. His successor was his son Chao Qiang Kwai ( 1904–2003). He had several students including Chao Feng his successor and my father Chao Gang and his last student and only westerner to be taught Hunter von Unschuld. My father and grandfather taught me Chao Tseng-Ming.


----------



## Kwan Sau

kung fu fighter said:


> I agree with Keith,
> I feel Kulo pin sun wck is the core blue print of Leung Jan's inner teachings, however,
> 
> You guys might also want to have a look into the Lo Kwai chao family wck system, it is said that this system also came from Leung Jan. But i have it from good source that it actually decended from Chan Wah Shun. But never the less it's probably worth investigating. There was a gentleman name Danny chao whom I used to communicate with in Toronto Canada that practiced this system. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago.
> 
> Lo Kwai was an early student of Leung Jan, when he first started teaching in around 1950–1960. He was taught a single hand form with four sections, which Lo Family preserves would be later broken down and refined by Wong and Leung during the Opera ban, into the Wing Chun Kuen system we see today.
> 
> Curriculum:
> 
> Single Form - 4 sections - from Wong Wah Bo
> Siu Lien Tao
> Chum Kiu
> Biu Jee
> Bot Gwa Kuen
> 
> Muk Yan Jong
> Look Dim Boon Gwun
> Yee Jee Dao
> Hei Gung sets
> Technical overview: Some of our kuen kuit and yiu jee for you. As the opponent comes receive ;if he goes escort;if contact is lost move forward;use soft to overcame hard; hard and soft combine as needed; stillness to overcome movement; footwork is to be quick and nimble( teng nuo yee shun shuok); body angle must be changed quickly;hands and feet defend as needed;
> 
> Our kuen kuit are also read in relation to others as well as alone. For example, attack the center control the center destroy the center, refers to attcking the centerline but also is about attcking the center of gravity of the opponent joining to and controlling the center of gravity.
> 
> Then we use 18 energies. tao=spit,tun=swallow,fao=raise,chum=sink , mo=touch dong=swing,na =adhere,kum=grasp,lao=leak,tong=press,biu=thrust,zhan=vibrate, huai=spiral,juan=roll,shuai=throw,zhi=straight,dap=join,jui=follow.
> 
> Yee Jee Kan Yong Ma is the basic stance. The knees are relaxed. We do not clamp. Breathing is very important and leads to a bounce or a spring in the stance.
> 
> The wood man form teaches many concepts such s short power,and how to use the waist ,hips and legs. the sections also teach different concepts. Many re concerned with moving from the inside gates to the outside ,moving from outside to inside. Making the bridge on the outside,making the bridge on the inside.
> 
> Also we focus on heaven ,man ,earth or high, mid, low. The dummy and weapons tech how to move from high to low to mid both from outside to inside and inside to outside. We also have methods to fight from the low or earth. this for when you are thrown or swept . The methods deal with bringing the opponent down to the ground or how to get up from the ground.
> 
> We use a 9 gate method 3 gates inside the opponents arms and 6 outside the opponents arms. We have no blocks but train covering our exposed gates as we move and how to cover gates based on how the opponent moves.
> 
> Our system is made up of the 4 forms SNT,CK, BJ and BGK, the wooden man form, the pole form and the knife form.We have several tests you must pass before you can be said to have completed the training. For example with the knives you must be able to absorb the full force of an attack with a kwan dao without moving or losing your stance or structure. This is to show you have learned how to absorb and direct force into the ground.You must be able to demonstrate the short issuing ging with you arm fully outstretched and palm flat on the target. the arm may not bend and the palm may not move as you issue energy.
> 
> *The History of Wing Chun According to Lo Kwai - By Chao Tseng-Ming and Brian Scanlon*
> 
> Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo. Leung Jan learned 2 different interpretations of wing chun. The small frame from LYT and large frame from WWB. WWB was considered the best fighter of the wing chun group of Opera members. WWB taught 1 form and LYT taught short forms or San Sik.
> 
> Leung Jan wanted to combine everything he learned from his 2 Sifu into one complete method. WWB worked with LJ to combine everything into a teachable progressive system. LJ was very educated and wanted to have an organized method for remembering and teaching. The 1 form had 4 parts to it. This was divided into 3+1 forms . This allowed moving of some sections from the begining to the end and allowed the insertion of the material of LYT.
> 
> After this the 3 forms of SLT, CK, BJ became more or less set. The Muk Yan Jong, Yee Gee Dao and Look Dim Boon Gwun were not fully set at this point. As they became more set the 4th form was felt to be uneeded as much of what it contained was put into the Jong and Dao. Several san sik came from the 4th form or as some might say the 4th section of the 1 form.
> 
> Chan Kwai began learning from Leung Jan . He taught his son and 2 nephews Chao Cheng Lei and Chao Chong Lin. Chao Chong Lin survived and taught his son Chao Jian Yu he taught a few others. His successor was his son Chao Qiang Kwai ( 1904–2003). He had several students including Chao Feng his successor and my father Chao Gang and his last student and only westerner to be taught Hunter von Unschuld. My father and grandfather taught me Chao Tseng-Ming.



Wow...this is very cool! Thanks for sharing KFF!
I clicked on the links but it went to a website asking for a password(?).
The curriculum sounds interesting, as well as the tests you mention.
Would love to hear or see more on those 18 energies you mentioned. Any examples you care to post?
How was/is the Bot Gwa Kuen passed down? As part of an empty-hand form?


----------



## zuti car

KPM said:


> ---Well, this is the problem.  The Gu Lao village guys are well known for teaching a "public" version of their system and keeping the "good stuff" in the family.  They were known for being very secretive about their art until fairly recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ---So....I've essentially lost interest in really trying to figure out Wing Chun history or in figuring out how some ancestor (including Ip Man) did his Wing Chun.  It may be good for entertainment value, but I don't assign the importance to it that I used to.  I'm more interested in what works well and uses good biomechanics.   Given the advancements in Sports Science an understanding of biomechanics in modern times, this means this is going to be a lineage that has modified and changed things to keep up with updated knowledge and the ways Wing Chun is likely to be used in modern days.   And I have found at least one lineage that does that.....Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.



I have never seen their "good stuff" really works ,in a ring or in a real situation , so they can keep it .

I have similar point of view , It is not important what some old wing chun guy could do 100 years ago but what I can do. I have checked that Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun you mentioned in your post and I can say my approach is very similar to theirs . On the other hand I have passion for history , not only martial history  but in general , and exploring the history of the style I am practicing comes naturally as a result of that interest. I know I ask uncomfortable question that upset people but these questions are valid ones . It amazes me how easily people loose perspective when it comes to  CMA history. They often behave like children a have completely unrealistic view toward "kung fu ancestors" ,not to speak about inappropriate emotions . "Ancestors " are perfect in every way , morally ,ethically and they often had superhuman abilities , and if that view is challenged people react like kids react when someone tells them their dad is not the strongest and their mom is not the most beautiful .It is easily forgotten that "kung fu ancestors" were just people , not better , nor worst than anyone else .often they did things out of the necessity of the situation , like Yip Man . While most of the people worship Yip Man as some kind of demigod  or at least a hero with all the attributes numbered before I see a man who escaped communist prosecution (he had to do it , otherwise he would be killed for sure) but he left his wife and children behind . They could be killed easily , communists did killed families of their political enemies . Yip Man took all the money , lost that money gambling and developed addiction on opium . Now , could a person like that invent a story about Leung Bik in order to attract students ? I think it would be strange if he didn't . 
Let's talk about Leung Jan , it is said he had more than 300 fights and he was undefeated .This is very hard to believe , unless he fought total beginners without any martial experience . After 300 fights , even if he won all of them , he would be crippled . If we look professional fighters of modern time , boxers for example , during a career they have 50 - 60 fights , and later in life they suffer from a range of diseases which are directly related to their fighting training . Leung Jan lived way above the average life span of its time which means he was a healthy man who took good care about himself , no way he had 300 fights , i think 3 to 10 if he had any would be much closer to the truth , time and pulp fiction novels later did the rest


----------



## Jake104

zuti car said:


> I have never seen their "good stuff" really works ,in a ring or in a real situation , so they can keep it .
> 
> I have similar point of view , It is not important what some old wing chun guy could do 100 years ago but what I can do. I have checked that Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun you mentioned in your post and I can say my approach is very similar to theirs . On the other hand I have passion for history , not only martial history  but in general , and exploring the history of the style I am practicing comes naturally as a result of that interest. I know I ask uncomfortable question that upset people but these questions are valid ones . It amazes me how easily people loose perspective when it comes to  CMA history. They often behave like children a have completely unrealistic view toward "kung fu ancestors" ,not to speak about inappropriate emotions . "Ancestors " are perfect in every way , morally ,ethically and they often had superhuman abilities , and if that view is challenged people react like kids react when someone tells them their dad is not the strongest and their mom is not the most beautiful .It is easily forgotten that "kung fu ancestors" were just people , not better , nor worst than anyone else .often they did things out of the necessity of the situation , like Yip Man . While most of the people worship Yip Man as some kind of demigod  or at least a hero with all the attributes numbered before I see a man who escaped communist prosecution (he had to do it , otherwise he would be killed for sure) but he left his wife and children behind . They could be killed easily , communists did killed families of their political enemies . Yip Man took all the money , lost that money gambling and developed addiction on opium . Now , could a person like that invent a story about Leung Bik in order to attract students ? I think it would be strange if he didn't .
> Let's talk about Leung Jan , it is said he had more than 300 fights and he was undefeated .This is very hard to believe , unless he fought total beginners without any martial experience . After 300 fights , even if he won all of them , he would be crippled . If we look professional fighters of modern time , boxers for example , during a career they have 50 - 60 fights , and later in life they suffer from a range of diseases which are directly related to their fighting training . Leung Jan lived way above the average life span of its time which means he was a healthy man who took good care about himself , no way he had 300 fights , i think 3 to 10 if he had any would be much closer to the truth , time and pulp fiction novels later did the rest


I'm always skeptical when masters throw out numbers like 300 or 600 fights won. To me that's a red flag. Real fighters don't count. Why would you if you're protecting yourself? No need to keep score. Just be happy you made it through those situations.

History is good but, seriously it becomes a real snooze fest after awhile. Maybe this is the answer to Geezers thread, on why people are leaving WC? I guarrentee this is a factor. Why is it so important to some people? IMO, that's all they got. They don't spar, they don't fight, competition or real. So the tales of there WC history/lineage fills that void. They live through what somebody they never met, who may or may not existed, did 150 years ago, or didn't do..????? I don't get it, and I don't want to get it! I too only care about what I can do and not what somebody did 100 years ago.


----------



## Vajramusti

KPM said:


> I think Ip Man WCK looks so close to YKS WCK because Yuen Kay Shan was a much larger influence on him than his students want to admit!  And I completely dismiss any claims that Ip Man's style is the best representative of Leung Jan's original art.  And how can you say Ip Man's method is "so much different from Kolo WCK" but still so similar to YKS WCK?  Other than the organization of the curriculum, most of the differences between Ip Man version and YKS version are the same differences between Ip Man version and Gu Lao version.  And these can be attributed to influences on Ip Man from other sources as well as Ip Man's own changes or innovations.


----------



## Vajramusti

Folks can think in various ways and I know many will.. But my own view is- IM and YKS knew each other and were neighbors and interacted some together. But I don't think that YKS taught IP man wc.Among others three points in my reasoning.
1.People infer different things from videos and chi chat. To my eyes- in both structure and dynamics- IM's structure and motion is different from YKS. They turn on the axis differently-

2.If you get someone to translate Kwok Fu's last "secret interview(he died in 2011 and was one of two earliest Foshan students)-you will see that he also knew YKS and mentions 1. the axis 2. he was able to get through to
YKS and 3. when YKS came over- IM man told Kwok Fu not to show YKS, the IM dummy work 

3. only the YKS  folks(not IM or his sons) claim that YKS had a a major influence on IM

Incidentally Sam Nun developed much of his wc himself though he started with YKS. Rene's website originally was called YKS wing chun. When Rene visited Sum Nun . SN was not very happy with that. Then Rene changed it(the name) to give Sum Nun proper  credit. because of Chinese cultural tendencies-there is a lot of disguising of conversations and relationships. So look at what actually remains in the dynamics- specially the feet in IM and YKS-SN.


----------



## kung fu fighter

Kwan Sau said:


> Would love to hear or see more on those 18 energies you mentioned. Any examples you care to post?



The info I posted can be found on this website WingChunPedia - The One and Only Wing Chun Encylopedia WCP Lo Kwai Chao Family System browse

The 18 Energies are:

Tao=spit

Tun=swallow

Fao=raise

Chum=sink

Mo=touch

Dong=swing

Na =adhere

Kum=grasp

Lao=leak

Tong=press

Biu=thrust

Zhan=vibrate,

Huai=spiral

Juan=roll

Shuai=throw

Zhi=straight

Darp=join

Jui=follow.



Kwan Sau said:


> How was/is the Bot Gwa Kuen passed down? As part of an empty-hand form?



Bot Gwa Kuen means 8 directions fists, basicly a combination of the footwork from the jong and bot jaam do forms done with empty hands techniques in a form.This system is not my cup of tea and I do not practice it, In terms of Leung jan's wck I have a  preference for kulo pin sun wck.


----------



## Kwan Sau

kung fu fighter said:


> The info I posted can be found on this website WingChunPedia - The One and Only Wing Chun Encylopedia WCP Lo Kwai Chao Family System browse
> 
> The 18 Energies are:
> 
> Tao=spit
> 
> Tun=swallow
> 
> Fao=raise
> 
> Chum=sink
> 
> Mo=touch
> 
> Dong=swing
> 
> Na =adhere
> 
> Kum=grasp
> 
> Lao=leak
> 
> Tong=press
> 
> Biu=thrust
> 
> Zhan=vibrate,
> 
> Huai=spiral
> 
> Juan=roll
> 
> Shuai=throw
> 
> Zhi=straight
> 
> Darp=join
> 
> Jui=follow.
> 
> 
> 
> Bot Gwa Kuen means 8 directions fists, basicly a combination of the footwork from the jong and bot jaam do forms done with empty hands techniques in a form.This system is not my cup of tea and I do not practice it, In terms of Leung jan's wck I have a  preference for kulo pin sun wck.




Thanks KFF. Appreciate the post.


----------



## zuti car

Vajramusti said:


> Folks can think in various ways and I know many will.. But my own view is- IM and YKS knew each other and were neighbors and interacted some together. But I don't think that YKS taught IP man wc.Among others three points in my reasoning.
> 1.People infer different things from videos and chi chat. To my eyes- in both structure and dynamics- IM's structure and motion is different from YKS. They turn on the axis differently-
> 
> 2.If you get someone to translate Kwok Fu's last "secret interview(he died in 2011 and was one of two earliest Foshan students)-you will see that he also knew YKS and mentions 1. the axis 2. he was able to get through to
> YKS and 3. when YKS came over- IM man told Kwok Fu not to show YKS, the IM dummy work
> 
> 3. only the YKS  folks(not IM or his sons) claim that YKS had a a major influence on IM
> 
> Incidentally Sam Nun developed much of his wc himself though he started with YKS. Rene's website originally was called YKS wing chun. When Rene visited Sum Nun . SN was not very happy with that. Then Rene changed it(the name) to give Sum Nun proper  credit. because of Chinese cultural tendencies-there is a lot of disguising of conversations and relationships. So look at what actually remains in the dynamics- specially the feet in IM and YKS-SN.



About structure , it similar , not the same , but that fact alone doesn't prove or disapprove anything , many of Yip Man' students have different structure , yet they all learnt from same teacher.

I watched Kwok Fu interview , that looks a lot like other Yip Man's "students" stories , "I had a lot of *underground* fights " , "I was *Burce Lee's* teacher" or at last "I was way better than *Bruce Lee and *won several fights against him"  . Everyone who ever spent two hours in Yip Man;s school is grandmaster today and they all have same mantra " underground, secret fights, Bruce lee" . Now ,Kwok fu didn't have Bruce but he had Yuen Kai San. I am very skeptical when I hear this kind of stories . Most of it can be easily proved as a false ones . About "he was able to get through to YKS" , is there really an untouchable master ? Maybe in some schools where "master" do not touch hands with anyone outside the school , only with low level students . But , really , watch professional fights , is there a fighter who wasn't got hit ? Only in HK action movies there are untouchable kung fu fighters .

Not only YKS people claim that Yip Man learnt from YKS , I, for example, am not involved in YSK WCK in any way but I say it is highly probable that Yip Man did learn from YKS. In essence , YKS people do not care much about Yip Man , they only reacted after that movie where YKS character was given wrong place . Yip Man's sons will , of course , support Leung Bik story for obvious reasons . 

Now .Let's talk about Yip Man and what we know about his learning . He spent 6 months with Chan Wah Shun and a year or two with Ng Chan So . Was that enough to pick up the whole system ? I think yes , if he spent every day with his teachers . On the other hand he was a child and his capacity to fully understand the teachings is questionable. Now , a lot of people agree that Yip Man's wing chun is different from Chan Wah Shun's , but there is a catch , we don't know how CWS wck really looked like . Maybe Yip Man's style is the purest CWS wck , maybe he did learn something from some other source . We don't know . What we know is that Leung Bik's existence cannot be proved and that story probably never happened . Maybe Leung Bik was YKS , maybe not , but there is more chance that YKS was "Leung Bik" than the other story . One more thing is often forgotten , at the time when YKS and Yip Man spent a lot f time together , they did that in Ng Chan So's school . Maybe Yip Man continued his studies with his old teacher , maybe they developed their style further . We don't know. I believe it is better to say the truth about what we know and what we do not know than blindly believe in the stories that cannot be proved ( usually these stories are giving a believer some sense of exclusivity and superiority , and that is one more reason not to believe in them)


----------



## KPM

Yeah, what Zuti said!  ;-)   Sure, folks will think in various ways...and Joy's post is a perfect example of that!  But one has to examine the evidence and "most likely" and go beyond "sifu sez."   As Zuti pointed out, in a culture where "saving face" is very important (and even more so in martial arts circles!), sure someone's followers are always going to tell the stories that make them and their teacher look good!  Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Ng Chun So were known as the "three heroes of Foshan."  They were known to be friends and to train together.  Who here really thinks that Ip Man would not have learned from and exchanged with someone that was his senior and that he associated with on a regular basis?  Rene started referring to the style as "Sum Nun Wing Chun" after visiting Sum Nun because Sum Nun's senior students demanded it!  By all accounts Sum Nun did not significantly change Yuen Kay Shan's methods, he only added the 12 initial short sets that he had learned from Cheung Bo.   You have to be careful with revisionist historical retelling that frames things in someone's favor.  ;-)


----------



## Vajramusti

KPM said:


> Yeah, what Zuti said!  ;-)   Sure, folks will think in various ways...and Joy's post is a perfect example of that!  But one has to examine the evidence and "most likely" and go beyond "sifu sez."   As Zuti pointed out, in a culture where "saving face" is very important (and even more so in martial arts circles!), sure someone's followers are always going to tell the stories that make them and their teacher look good!  Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Ng Chun So were known as the "three heroes of Foshan."  They were known to be friends and to train together.  Who here really thinks that Ip Man would not have learned from and exchanged with someone that was his senior and that he associated with on a regular basis?  Rene started referring to the style as "Sum Nun Wing Chun" after visiting Sum Nun because Sum Nun's senior students demanded it!  By all accounts Sum Nun did not significantly change Yuen Kay Shan's methods, he only added the 12 initial short sets that he had learned from Cheung Bo.   You have to be careful with revisionist historical retelling that frames things in someone's favor.  ;-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Zuti and KPM have their own opinions- and I have mine.
Pointless to argue.


----------



## kung fu fighter

Vajramusti said:


> But my own view is- IM and YKS knew each other and were neighbors and interacted some together. But I don't think that YKS taught IP man wc.Among others three points in my reasoning.
> 1.People infer different things from videos and chi chat. To my eyes- in both structure and dynamics- IM's structure and motion is different from YKS. They turn on the axis differently-


what's the differences in turning on the axis between the two?



Vajramusti said:


> 2.If you get someone to translate Kwok Fu's last "secret interview(he died in 2011 and was one of two earliest Foshan students)-you will see that he also knew YKS and mentions 1. the axis 2. he was able to get through to YKS and 3. when YKS came over- IM man told Kwok Fu not to show YKS, the IM dummy work


A friend of mine translated this for me and said it was Cheung bo the cook that Kwok Fu was referring to and not YKS



Vajramusti said:


> Incidentally Sam Nun developed much of his wc himself though he started with YKS. Rene's website originally was called YKS wing chun. When Rene visited Sum Nun . SN was not very happy with that. Then Rene changed it(the name) to give Sum Nun proper  credit. because of Chinese cultural tendencies-there is a lot of disguising of conversations and relationships. So look at what actually remains in the dynamics- specially the feet in IM and YKS-SN.


I 've also heard this story, from what i hear Sum Nung wasn't happy with renbe calling it YKSWC and told Rene that he didn't learn much From YKS, that most or all of his wing chun came from Cheung bo. Maybe you can confirm if this is true?


----------



## Vajramusti

Navin- you have to watch the feet in chum kiu turns(Sum Num's son's chum kiu with WSL and HKM and TST and make up your own mind.
ON Sum Nun's dissatisfaction- I heard that from a very good friend-now deceased who corresponded regularly with a close friend of SN.
That's all. You met one good student of SN in NY I believe. He is quiet , competent and good.I ma not in that loop.


----------



## zuti car

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Zuti and KPM have their own opinions- and I have mine.
> Pointless to argue.


I don;t see any argument here, just some exchange of what we know ( or we think we know). It is interesting for me to see (read) how different people may have such a different opinions on same things . I value every point of view , it gives me a different  perspective , and that is an important thing


----------



## zuti car

KPM said:


> Yeah, what Zuti said!  ;-)   Sure, folks will think in various ways...and Joy's post is a perfect example of that!  But one has to examine the evidence and "most likely" and go beyond "sifu sez."   As Zuti pointed out, in a culture where "saving face" is very important (and even more so in martial arts circles!), sure someone's followers are always going to tell the stories that make them and their teacher look good!  Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Ng Chun So were known as the "three heroes of Foshan."  They were known to be friends and to train together.  Who here really thinks that Ip Man would not have learned from and exchanged with someone that was his senior and that he associated with on a regular basis?  Rene started referring to the style as "Sum Nun Wing Chun" after visiting Sum Nun because Sum Nun's senior students demanded it!  By all accounts Sum Nun did not significantly change Yuen Kay Shan's methods, he only added the 12 initial short sets that he had learned from Cheung Bo.   You have to be careful with revisionist historical retelling that frames things in someone's favor.  ;-)


To get closer to the truth , it is important to know  people , their culture, way of thinking , social norms . Measuring data about kung fu history from western cultural perspective is completely wrong . Kung fu history is not a "history" which purpose is to present facts about past events , it is actually everything but that . People on the east do not put much attention to these "histories" , at least not until $$$ is involved .
History revision in common trend in Europe these days , currently , WWI history in changing and I am afraid in couple of years when they start changing WWII history children will learn in schools how bad Jews killed 6 millions Germans in concentration camps . Now , imagine how kung fu history is changing when "official " one ,supported with unquestionable proves is changed .


----------



## kung fu fighter

Vajramusti said:


> Navin- you have to watch the feet in chum kiu turns(Sum Num's son's chum kiu with WSL and HKM and TST and make up your own mind.



When turning WSL and HKM axis is over their heels, TST's is closer to the center of his feet exactly like yip man does in the black and white footage,YKS/Sum Nung axis is over the K1 point of their feet like in Kulo pin sun wck.

Question for you Joy, what's the benefit of having one's axis over the heels when turning?


----------



## Marnetmar

Leung Sheung people like myself also turn closer to the front of their foot.

I think I've heard someone say that Leung Sheung's style shares more characteristics with mainland styles than Yip Man's later Hong Kong students but I haven't studied any other WC styles due to a lack of other WC schools in my area so I don't know if that's true or not. Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## Vajramusti

kung fu fighter said:


> When turning WSL and HKM axis is over their heels, TST's is closer to the center of his feet exactly like yip man does in the black and white footage,YKS/Sum Nung axis is over the K1 point of their feet like in Kulo pin sun wck.
> 
> Question for you Joy, what's the benefit of having one's axis over the heels when turning?


--------------------------------------------
Navin
One should be careful about inferences from IM's videos. He was old and bent over and made some natural balance adjustments.
Regarding the heels..you do not lean back on the heels. The feet are flat on the ground.The foot has many joints which adjust including the toes. The heel is simply the focal point just as a plumber applies a wrench for turning  a pipe. The objective is to minimize loss of body unity and not throwing off the center line including the dan tien.
Not easy to learn.Once learned the brain takes over controlling the body-
making adjustments for applications-including for surfaces, aging etc.
People who didn't stay long with IM or had  CLF or something else embedded in them early  were not good at doing it.


----------



## geezer

Vajramusti said:


> Regarding the heels... People who didn't stay long with IM or had  CLF or something else embedded in them early  were not good at doing it.


 
Joy, I'm sure where this is leading. Different lineages and, indeed different branches of the Yip Man lineage differ significantly on how they do stance turning. They all seem convinced that they, and _only they_  have it right. It's been discussed at length on other threads. Ultimately what one does can either be determined by a. clan loyalty, or b. functionality. And functionality varies with the individual.

Either way, this is a discussion that quickly moves off topic.


----------



## Vajramusti

geezer said:


> Joy, I'm sure where this is leading. Different lineages and, indeed different branches of the Yip Man lineage differ significantly on how they do stance turning. They all seem convinced that they, and _only they_  have it right. It's been discussed at length on other threads. Ultimately what one does can either be determined by a. clan loyalty, or b. functionality. And functionality varies with the individual.
> 
> Either way, this is a discussion that quickly moves off topic.


------------------------------------
Agree-
The Leung shun folks including Leung ting turn differently. And- W. Cheung steps.Each has implications for other body motions. Agree about moving off topic. I just answered Navin's question and I am done.


----------



## kung fu fighter

Marnetmar said:


> Leung Sheung people like myself also turn closer to the front of their foot.
> 
> I think I've heard someone say that Leung Sheung's style shares more characteristics with mainland styles than Yip Man's later Hong Kong students but I haven't studied any other WC styles due to a lack of other WC schools in my area so I don't know if that's true or not. Can anyone confirm this?


Yes Leung sheung's wing chun shares more characteristics in common with Yuen Kay Shan wck, such as turning closer to the front of their foot. This is good evidence to support the argument of Yip Man being heavily influenced by YKS (code name for leung Bik), and this is clearly reflected by what he passed down to his early students such as Leung Sheung and Tsui Sheung Tin.



Vajramusti said:


> Navin
> One should be careful about inferences from IM's videos. He was old and bent over and made some natural balance adjustments.



I find this hard to believe, especially since his early students were taught this by him.


----------



## Vajramusti

kung fu fighter said:


> Yes Leung sheung's wing chun shares more characteristics in common with Yuen Kay Shan wck, such as turning closer to the front of their foot. This is good evidence to support the argument of Yip Man being heavily influenced by YKS (code name for leung Bik), and this is clearly reflected by what he passed down to his early students such as Leung Sheung and Tsui Sheung Tin.


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## Vajramusti

Navin - you have your own inferences!


----------



## kung fu fighter

Vajramusti said:


> Regarding the heels..you do not lean back on the heels. The feet are flat on the ground.The foot has many joints which adjust including the toes. The heel is simply the focal point just as a plumber applies a wrench for turning  a pipe. The objective is to minimize loss of body unity and not throwing off the center line including the dan tien.
> Not easy to learn.Once learned the brain takes over controlling the body-
> making adjustments for applications-including for surfaces, aging etc.
> People who didn't stay long with IM or had  CLF or something else embedded in them early  were not good at doing it.



Over the last 25 years I've practiced both turning axis, I found when the turning axis is on the heels, there is no forward drive or stable connection with the ground since your feet are turning on top of the ground, ground coupling is diminished by atleast 70% when compared to screwing into the ground by having the turning axis closer to the front of the feet. not to mention the tremendous amount of waist torque one has when the turning axis closer to the front of the feet, which I am sure KPM can attest to from his kulo pin sun wck experience.



Vajramusti said:


> The objective is to minimize loss of body unity and not throwing off the center line including the dan tien.


I assure you if the turning axis is closer to the front of the feet, there is no loss of body unity nor throwing off of the centerline and dan tien. it's just that it uses different physics mainly centripetal and centrifugal forces to orbit the opponent's center axis rather than remaining directly in front of the opponent and extending straight forward as in the turning axis being on the heels.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...m.svg/220px-Centripetal_force_diagram.svg.png
http://www.wpclipart.com/science/how_things_work/Centrifugal_force.png


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## kung fu fighter

having the turning axis on the heels is much like a spinning top on the ground, no ground coupling or rooting


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## Vajramusti

kung fu fighter said:


> having the turning axis on the heels is much like a spinning top on the ground, no ground coup
> ----------------------------
> 
> Fine


----------



## Kwan Sau

I've turned on the heels for many years, never had any issues. It seems clear from reading this post that we all have our lineage specific methods . I guess what's most important is: can we make it work when the SHTF.  ;-)


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## kung fu fighter

Kwan Sau said:


> I've turned on the heels for many years, never had any issues.


Based on my experience it depends on who you are training with, if your training partner's turning axis is also on his heels, then there would be no noticeable difference since you both are using the same bio-mechanics and momentum, however if you have to deal with an opponent with alot of incoming momentum you would be easily uprooted if the turning axis is on the heels.



Kwan Sau said:


> It seems clear from reading this post that we all have our lineage specific methods . I guess what's most important is: can we make it work when the SHTF.  ;-)



I agree! To be honest I don't follow dogma of any wck linages I only concern myself with what the most efficient way of doing things especially when it come to WCK bio-mechanics. Based on my research, having the turning axis on the K1 point of the feet is more efficient than it on the heels, but not as efficient as having it on the arch of the feet using force flow.


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## dlcox

It amazes me how many will argue moot points, such as weight distribution and rotation, in a thread about Liang Zan's original art, as a means of establishing ancestry and historical validation to a root method. It's obvious that if one wants to know what influenced Liang Zan and his development of Yong Chun you need to look at his influences. Notably, Liang Yi Dai, Huang Hua Bao and his own father.

Undoubtedly his father was a huge influence in his life. His father was a military man and ran a military school whose recruits fought in various conflicts. To dismiss this and focus on hand positions and stances is ludicrous. We can assume with relative accuracy, that Liang Yi Dai and Huang Hua Bao from the Red Boats, more than likely studied Yong Chun White Crane as passed on by Li Wen Mao. This fits in better with the oral history as well as real history, though we will never know for certain, but many of the markers are there. The other influence into Liang Zan's version of Yong Chun is most likely from the material taught at the military academy owned by his family. This is always overlooked and dismissed, I cannot understand why. Realistically it fits better than mysterious snake fist methods from Emei, or esoteric teachings from a wayward Shaolin monk.

The original method will never be found, Liang Zan was still tinkering with his art until he died. But the blueprint can be found. There is evidence for what influenced the art, we just need to look in the right place. Apply logic and deduction and forget about all the romantic influences that were tacked on many, many years later. Yong Chun is supposed to be simplistic, yet everyone over-complicates it's movement, theory and history in effort to be unique to all other arts developed by the same culture in the same era and from the same region. Why?


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## kung fu fighter

dlcox said:


> It amazes me how many will argue moot points, such as weight distribution and rotation, in a thread about Liang Zan's original art, as a means of establishing ancestry and historical validation to a root method.To focus on hand positions and stances is ludicrous.



Discussing the turning axis gives us specific DNA evidence of what Leung Jan's Origional art may have looked like, so it's not a moot point



dlcox said:


> We can assume with relative accuracy, that Liang Yi Dai and Huang Hua Bao from the Red Boats, more than likely studied Yong Chun White Crane as passed on by Li Wen Mao.



Agree! But there was also a snake boxing art that was fused with Yong chun White Crane in the creation of wing chun which most WCK linages acknowledge as part of their history including Yip Man WCK, YKSWCK, Snake crane WCK, Cho Ga WCK, Kulo pin sun WCK.  So can we can agree that these were the two major core systems in the wck creation?


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## dlcox

kung fu fighter said:


> Discussing the turning axis gives us specific DNA evidence of what Leung Jan's Origional art may have looked like, so it's not a moot point
> 
> 
> 
> Agree! But there was also a snake boxing art that was fused with Yong chun White Crane in the creation of wing chun which most WCK linages acknowledge as part of their history including Yip Man WCK, YKSWCK, Snake crane WCK, Cho Ga WCK, Kulo pin sun WCK.  So can we can agree that these were the two major core systems in the wck creation?


 
Discussion of turning on the axis only gives us individual preference, not DNA, we don't know how Liang Zan did it or even suggested how to do it. Many within a same lineage do it differently. The same goes for theory, application and techniques. Each teacher adds on or emphasizes aspects that they understand well and can transmit. Technique and method are not a good source of "DNA", though can be helpful in research, teachers and their influences are key to understanding what went into the primordial stew. In Liang Zan's case we have to eliminate much of what his descendants added to the art, find the common ground and start backwards from there.

Those stories are highly romanticized and are not a verifiable part of Yong Chun "History". Most of these stories were introduced in the  Republican Era. The only art to have any traceable link to Yong Chun is Yong Chun White Crane, and even that link isn't definitive as far as documentation goes, but is as of current the best source from which to start.


----------



## dlcox

Here are some links to some well written discussions on the art of Yong Chun and it's origins and development.

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2014/03/20/conceptualizing-the-asian-martial-arts-ancient-origins-social-institutions-and-leung-jans-wing-chun/
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/07/12/hing-chao-discusses-southern-boxing-white-crane-and-the-eastern-theory-of-wing-chuns-origins/
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/10/19/lives-of-chinese-martial-artists-3-chan-wah-shun-and-the-creation-of-wing-chun/
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/08/10/wing-chun-and-the-problem-of-origins-why-does-it-have-to-come-from-anywhere/


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## kung fu fighter

dlcox said:


> Technique and method are not a good source of "DNA"


I am not talking about technique or method, I am talking about Leung Jan's WCK power generation and the bio-mechanics involved which were passed down to Yip Man, Fung Chun, and Lo Kwai.


----------



## dlcox

kung fu fighter said:


> I am not talking about technique or method, I am talking about Leung Jan's WCK power generation and the bio-mechanics involved which were passed down to Yip Man, Fung Chun, and Lo Kwai.


 
 I will repeat.

_Each teacher adds on or emphasizes aspects that they understand well and can transmit.
In Liang Zan's case we have to eliminate much of what his descendants added to the art, find the common ground and start backwards from there._

Ye Wen, Feng Chun & Luo Guai all do it differently. Their students do it differently than them, especially in the case of Ye Wen. No one knows what Liang Zan's bio-mechanics and power generation involved. This methodology cannot be used as a reliable reference into Liang Zan's martial upbringing.

We must look at his influences first and cross reference with what exists to see what overlaps, if anything, to see what has survived.

Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.

People need to stop looking at *preferences* and making assumptions of the history based on them. There is absolutely no tangible evidence to support that Yongchun even existed prior to Liang Zan. The name Yongchun was not even documented until 2 generations after him. There may be a grain of truth to the mythology but the real truth lies within the political and social climates of the era and the people directly impacted that were living during those times. Why did the people of the Pearl River delta need to import a martial tradition from somewhere else? They have their own rich history of unique and effective methods which were forged in response to the influences and situations they encountered in their own backyard.

Liang Zan is the only verifiable and documented individual of his era in regards to the art of Yongchun. Yes, someone did teach him martial arts, what they taught we do not really know. We can only speculate and form conclusions based on* assumption* and *preference*. Nothing can be verified at present, we can though, make educated guesses based upon logic and "Most Likely" scenarios. But in order to do this, we have to look at what influences were present in the area. Not only the Opera (which many performers are documented to have been White Crane stylists) but also the cultural aspects, most notably the Hejia (Hakka) people, as well as political and societal influences. We can all make assumptions and even link oral traditions with our assumptions as "Proof" of our beliefs, but this does not make it TRUE.

Yongchun is like a lump of clay. This clay is molded and shaped by many artists into their own interpretation of what they believe is the true representation. Unfortunately nothing exists in a vacuum and no art is left unmolested by cultural influences. The Yongchun of Malaysia is different from Vietnam's which is different from Foshan's which is different from Hong Kong's which is different from New York's etc......This is because the methods and traditions of each of these places has affected the approach, structure, styling and theory based upon the local cultural influences it has been subjected to.

Where did the art first appear (originate) as verifiably documented? Not Emei not Sichuan, Yunnan or etc. It was in Liang Zan's home town of Foshan. It's not impossible that it was imported there from somewhere else, its just that there is no definitive proof that it was. Foshan was a melting pot of sorts, being a port city, but if one examines the true southern arts of the area Yong Chun Quan, Bai He Quan, Long Xing Quan, Bai Mei Quan, Zhujia Quan, Nan Tong Long Quan they all share similar qualities, structure, history, theory and techniques. We know much of the history wasn't created until the early 20th century and based upon the Wuxia novels of the time. So what does that leave?


----------



## Hendrik

kung fu fighter said:


> I am not talking about technique or method, I am talking about Leung Jan's WCK power generation and the bio-mechanics involved which were passed down to Yip Man, Fung Chun, and Lo Kwai.



They don't understand your question, thus not able to answer you.

If there is power generation, by evidence all of the above lineages are variation of external physical power generation and so no need to read deeper then what doesn't exist


----------



## Hendrik

"
Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method."


This above is a sound good but non realistic reason.

The art of Wck has hard body long fist and soft body short strike in both front , side, back, three general position.

Side body position alone is partial and a limitation.  Go try out with a well train western boxer or kyokushin K1 type and see how will it work or not.


Imho,
It is more likely to be Someone's creative  story then leung jan , assume Leong jan is an expert.


----------



## dlcox

Hendrik said:


> "The art of Wck has hard body long fist and soft body short strike in both front , side, back, three general position. Side body position alone is partial and a limitation.  Go try out with a well train western boxer or kyokushin K1 type and see how will it work or not. Imho, It is more likely to be Someone's creative  story then leung jan , assume Leong jan is an expert.



I am well aware that Yongchun covers all the ranges and that one method alone, Side Body or Front Facing, are by themselves limited. Your response to my statement is out of context. He EMPHASIZED side body as a means of neutralizing a stronger opponent, not that he didn't also teach the front facing in Gulao. This exact analogy is represented in the video of Sergio using sensitivity and side body movement to absorb and return. So I don't see what your getting at, unless it's to refute what Sergio is doing. Besides what I was referring to was _*Preference*_ of movement and technique and how that cannot be used for reliable confirmation of a link to origin. BTW this story was also confirmed by two Gulao practitioners, one of whom is Jim Roselando.

Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved. There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force. Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need. Unless someone has an extra joint or lack of one, we all fundamentally move the same. Refinement of the same mechanics and proper use is what sets it apart when applied.


----------



## dlcox

Hendrik said:


> "The art of Wck has hard body long fist and soft body short strike in both front , side, back, three general position. Side body position alone is partial and a limitation.  Go try out with a well train western boxer or kyokushin K1 type and see how will it work or not. Imho, It is more likely to be Someone's creative  story then leung jan , assume Leong jan is an expert.



I am well aware that Yongchun covers all the ranges and that one method alone, Side Body or Front Facing, are by themselves limited. Your response to my statement is out of context. He EMPHASIZED side body as a means of neutralizing a stronger opponent, not that he didn't also teach the front facing in Gulao. This exact analogy is represented in the video of Sergio using sensitivity and side body movement to absorb and return. So I don't see what your getting at, unless it's to refute what Sergio is doing. Besides what I was referring to was _*Preference*_ of movement and technique and how that cannot be used for reliable confirmation of a link to origin. BTW this story was also confirmed by two Gulao practitioners, one of whom is Jim Roselando.

Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved. There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force. Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need. Unless someone has an extra joint or lack of one, we all fundamentally move the same. Refinement of the same mechanics and proper use is what sets it apart when applied.


----------



## Hendrik

"I am well aware that Yongchun covers all the ranges and that one method alone, Side Body or Front Facing, are by themselves limited. Your response to my statement is out of context. He EMPHASIZED side body as a means of neutralizing a stronger opponent, not that he didn't also teach the front facing in Gulao.


This exact analogy is represented in the video of Sergio using sensitivity and side body movement to absorb and return. So I don't see what your getting at, unless it's to refute what Sergio is doing. "


You have missed my point totally because you don't know what I mean by short strike and long fist , nor the soft body Sergio has developed.

Anyone who is interested can compare Sergio 2014 and 2015 utubes and figure out what is there not in 2014 to find out.



"Besides what I was referring to was _*Preference*_ of movement and technique and how that cannot be used for reliable confirmation of a link to origin. BTW this story was also confirmed by two Gulao practitioners, one of whom is Jim Roselando.

"


I know Jim art very well and his art be it in yik kam and Pin San doesn't have the soft body short strike as Sergio has.




"Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved.

There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force.

Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need. Unless someone has an extra joint or lack of one, we all fundamentally move the same. Refinement of the same mechanics and proper use is what sets it apart when applied."


Just because one don't know, doesn't mean there is non exist.

Seriously, if one  don't have it develop and not go that deep in one attainment . One simply will not know.


----------



## zuti car

Dear Hendrik , no one needs


----------



## kung fu fighter

dlcox said:


> Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.



I've never heard this, can you please cite the source of this information?? I know Fung Family Kulo wck so contain both front and side body methods, in fact from what I understand it was the Hong Kong wck practioners that named it side body due to the fact that the pin san wck people used more side body position than their HK wing chun counterpart.



dlcox said:


> Another thing is this whole "Engine" talk, there is only one "Engine" what differs is the mechanics involved. There is no such thing as "Internal" or "External" , "Soft" or "Hard" these are simply labels used to define emphasis on receiving and issuing force. Even mechanics don't really vary we simply refine movement from Gross Motor to Fine Motor to make it more productive and efficient depending on the need.



Your analogy of Gross motor to Fine Motor to combined Motor only applies to hard body long fist and not the soft body short strike as Sergio is demonstrating in the clip.



Hendrik said:


> They don't understand your question, thus not able to answer you.
> 
> If there is power generation, by evidence all of the above lineages are variation of external physical power generation and so no need to read deeper then what doesn't exist. I know Jim art very well and his art be it in yik kam and Pin San doesn't have the soft body short strike as Sergio has.



I agree!


----------



## dlcox

Hendrik said:


> ou have missed my point totally because you don't know what I mean by short strike and long fist , nor the soft body Sergio has developed.
> 
> Anyone who is interested can compare Sergio 2014 and 2015 utubes and figure out what is there not in 2014 to find out.



Obviously I don't understand you, just as you don't understand me. As far as Sergio goes I'm sure what he does in 2016 will be different as well.



Hendrik said:


> I know Jim art very well and his art be it in yik kam and Pin San doesn't have the soft body short strike as Sergio has.



No because you and others are feeding Sergio and he is creating something new.



kung fu fighter said:


> I've never heard this, can you please cite the source of this information?? I know Fung Family Kulo wck so contain both front and side body methods, in fact from what I understand it was the Hong Kong wck practioners that named it side body due to the fact that the pin san wck people used more side body position than their HK wing chun counterpart.



How Do These Wing Chun San Sik from different Wing Chun Compare to each Other



kung fu fighter said:


> Your analogy of Gross motor to Fine Motor to combined Motor only applies to hard body long fist and not the soft body short strike as Sergio is demonstrating in the clip.



My analogy applies to all human movement.


----------



## kung fu fighter

dlcox said:


> Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.
> How Do These Wing Chun San Sik from different Wing Chun Compare to each Other
> "All WC has Jing Sun and Pin Sun but Pin Sun was just the emphacis of Leung Jan's teaching. He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that. When we learn this art we actually learn the Jing Sun basics before moving onto the PS. The maxim states;
> 
> Power in the middle, Attack the side
> Weak middle, Attack the center"




No where on that link does does it say "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method." please cite where you got this???


----------



## Kwan Sau

kung fu fighter said:


> "All WC has Jing Sun and Pin Sun
> 
> The maxim states;
> 
> Power in the middle, Attack the side
> Weak middle, Attack the center"




Yep!


----------



## johnsimmons

Just to go back to the beginning and some one did post some back ground on our wing chun.

Lo Kwai kept a very full record of what he was being taught by Leung Jan. The family has the original notes etc. they have been handed down directly form Lo Kwai through his relatives. they are in the Chao family martial hall and part of their martial alter. 

So while everyone does things a little different due to body type,athletic abilities etc if you get a chance some of us may show you what has been handed down. 
I will say our art is a practical art and we are not slaves to it sonot everyone looks exactly alike. In fact the last person to be added to the ranks of official inheritor  and placed in the Martial Hall got there based on actual fighting skill and being able to use the two Gings in fighting in front of witnesses. He is the first to admit his form is less than perfect and has influences from wing chun outside the family.


----------



## dlcox

kung fu fighter said:


> No where on that link does does it say "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method." please cite where you got this???


 
_This is a quote from Leung Jan from when his students (Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung) asked what the difference was between their WC and the WC outside of Koo Lo;
The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family. The pole methods of the "facing" style is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun.
Side (Pien San) and Face (Jing San) are just elements. All classic WCK has both. Personally, I tend to think the larger individuals (Cheung Bo, Fung Liem, and others were either quite muscular or stocky) had a harder time with the facing methods (which thinner folk like Yuen Kay-San, Ng Jung-So and others could excel at), and so favored the flanking method. It's typically Chinese not to take credit for any innovations, so its always back-dated to a famed ancestor, wandering sage, mythic character, etc., and labels are then applied._

_ He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and *he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan*. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because* most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened* but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that_

This is what Jim Roselando said, it states basically what I wrote. My other information comes from  a friend. I used the information from both sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like. If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.


----------



## KPM

kung fu fighter said:


> When turning WSL and HKM axis is over their heels, TST's is closer to the center of his feet exactly like yip man does in the black and white footage,YKS/Sum Nung axis is over the K1 point of their feet like in Kulo pin sun wck.
> 
> Question for you Joy, what's the benefit of having one's axis over the heels when turning?



Here's the problem.  How can you say that YKS and IM shifted over the axis differently when IM seems to have taught to do this in different ways depending on whom and when he was teaching?  Ho Kam Ming and Wong Shun Leung may shift with the axis over the heels, yet Leung Sheung and Leung Ting shift with the axis closer to the K1 point.  As Navin points out, that final footage of an aging Ip Man seems to show him shifting with the axis close to K1....just like Yuen Kay Shan!  When you look at Sum Nun's student's Wing Chun and you look at Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun they are very similar.  Wong Nim Yei's father learned from Yuen Kay Shan.  No Cheung Bo influence that I've read!  When you look at Leung Sheung's current lineage of practitioners, they look a lot like Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.  Again, anyone can believe anything they want.  Given the very "flexible" nature of myth-telling and pseudo-history in Gung Fu circles, I tend to go with what seems the most plausible given the available evidence.   But also, like I said before, there is probably no real way of knowing and this is all gets entertaining discussion in a forum and doesn't mean much or have much real value.


----------



## KPM

Marnetmar said:


> Leung Sheung people like myself also turn closer to the front of their foot.
> 
> I think I've heard someone say that Leung Sheung's style shares more characteristics with mainland styles than Yip Man's later Hong Kong students but I haven't studied any other WC styles due to a lack of other WC schools in my area so I don't know if that's true or not. Can anyone confirm this?



From what I have seen, yes this is true.  Do a youtube search for Wong Nim Yei/Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun or Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun and see how familiar things seem to you.


----------



## Hendrik

dlcox said:


> _This is a quote from Leung Jan from when his students (Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung) asked what the difference was between their WC and the WC outside of Koo Lo;
> The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family. The pole methods of the "facing" style is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun.
> Side (Pien San) and Face (Jing San) are just elements. All classic WCK has both. Personally, I tend to think the larger individuals (Cheung Bo, Fung Liem, and others were either quite muscular or stocky) had a harder time with the facing methods (which thinner folk like Yuen Kay-San, Ng Jung-So and others could excel at), and so favored the flanking method. It's typically Chinese not to take credit for any innovations, so its always back-dated to a famed ancestor, wandering sage, mythic character, etc., and labels are then applied._
> 
> _ He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and *he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan*. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because* most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened* but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that_
> 
> This is what Jim Roselando said, it states basically what I wrote. My other information comes from  a friend. I used the information from both sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like. If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.



One needs to digest to see is it making common sense or not.

Saying

_"The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. "


Really doesn't making any sense but over simplify issues.

1.  Leong Jan is not the only person who knows wing chun in that era. He doesn't dictate what is Wck outside Koolo. That is a reality today we can verify with other lineages .

2. It is simply not true that jing sun is taught in 3 parts. Chum kiu and biu Jee has pin sun and jak  sun. It is not just jing sun by evidence.

3. This type of catagorization is misleading. I doubt Leong Jan said it eventhough looking at history there is no evidence to support  his so called King of Wing Chun kungfu title. Still, he would not be that ignorance to say something which is doesn't make sense in reality._


----------



## kung fu fighter

dlcox said:


> If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.



I can assure you when it comes to Fung Family kulo Pin Sun wing chun I have done the legwork so I am not speaking out of my A$$. Have you?



dlcox said:


> _This is a quote from Leung Jan from when his students (Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung) asked what the difference was between their WC and the WC outside of Koo Lo;
> The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style. The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family. The pole methods of the "facing" style is the Luk Dim Boon Gwun but in our village it is the Som Dim Boon Gwun.
> Side (Pien San) and Face (Jing San) are just elements. All classic WCK has both. Personally, I tend to think the larger individuals (Cheung Bo, Fung Liem, and others were either quite muscular or stocky) had a harder time with the facing methods (which thinner folk like Yuen Kay-San, Ng Jung-So and others could excel at), and so favored the flanking method. It's typically Chinese not to take credit for any innovations, so its always back-dated to a famed ancestor, wandering sage, mythic character, etc., and labels are then applied._
> 
> _He did say while they were similar, and from the same family, the hands differ very little! He was older and *he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan*. Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I tend to believe it was because* most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened* but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that_
> 
> This is what Jim Roselando said, it states basically what I wrote. My other information comes from  a friend. I used the information from both sources to form my conclusion, interpret it how you like. If you want answers so badly how about you do the actual leg work and quit antagonizing others until they give it to you.



No what Jim wrote above does not state anything about "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method" so please stick to facts quoting the source of your information instead of making things and twisting other people's words up to support your view.


----------



## dlcox

kung fu fighter said:


> *No what Jim wrote does not state anything about "Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method"* so please stick to facts quoting the source of your information instead of making things and twisting other people's words up to support your view.


 
This is what I wrote:

_*It states BASICALLY what I wrote*. *My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from BOTH sources to form my conclusion*, interpret it how you like. _

You're the one twisting words to fit your agenda, not me. *INTERPRET WHAT JIM HAD TO SAY HOW YOU LIKE!* I used Jim's statement to collaborate what my friend stated to me, I formed my conclusion based on the information I received. How is that any different than what anyone else does? Especially Hendrick.

All of this is way off topic. I have no further interest in discussion with beginners.

Good day mate.


----------



## kung fu fighter

dlcox said:


> This is what I wrote:
> 
> _*It states BASICALLY what I wrote*. *My other information comes from a friend. I used the information from BOTH sources to form my conclusion*, interpret it how you like. _
> 
> You're the one twisting words to fit your agenda, not me. *INTERPRET WHAT JIM HAD TO SAY HOW YOU LIKE!* I used Jim's statement to collaborate what my friend stated to me, I formed my conclusion based on the information I received.


There is no room for misinterpretation of what Jim said, I believe it is very clear, *ANY FOOL CAN SEE HE DOES NOT STATE BASICALLY WHAT YOU WROTE*. In regards to Pin sun wck your conclusion is very misleading and incorrect which tells me your friend doesn't know diddly squat about pin sun wck. This is completely inaccurate *"Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method"  *Perhaps KPM  can comment to clarify things since he has studied KLPSWC in depth.



dlcox said:


> I have no further interest in discussion with beginners.
> 
> Good day mate.


Who is the beginner here mate? lol


----------



## dlcox

Hendrik and Kung Fu Fighter as an FYI I have placed you on ignore. I no longer wish to argue with either one of you on your beliefs, its not worth my time. As long as you leave me out of any conversations I will extend the same courtesy to you.


kung fu fighter said:


> There is no room for misinterpretation of what Jim said, I believe it is very clear, *ANY FOOL CAN SEE HE DOES NOT STATE BASICALLY WHAT YOU WROTE*. In regards to Pin sun wck your conclusion is very misleading and incorrect which tells me your friend doesn't know diddly squat about pin sun wck. This is completely inaccurate *"Liang Zan stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method"  *Perhaps KPM  can comment to clarify things since he has studied KLPSWC in depth.
> 
> 
> Who is the beginner here mate? lol



This is what I wrote:

_“Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.”_


This is what Jim wrote:

_“The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. *The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style.* The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family.”_

When I read this I ask myself why the emphasis on side body, what is its purpose?

Here Jim gives a brief explanation, though not in detail.

_*“He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan.* Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I* tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that.”*_

When I see this I, the choice is evident…EVASION. We practice the exact same principle in White Crane as a defensive tactic. As a counter attacking method it works well, it is not a good offensive tactic like Zhong Shen.

Being older Liang Zan would have chosen to soften his method by emphasizing counter attack tactics as compared to offensive rushing tactics. “When the opponent comes I greet him, when he leaves I escort him, when the hands break free rush forward”. I believe he emphasized the first part of this maxim when creating Gulao 40 points. There is a similar progression in White Crane as one advances in training.

Based upon information I received from my friend and my own experiences plus what Jim wrote, I drew an educated conclusion. No I am not an expert in Gulao, but do I have to be? Is it really all that different from any branch of Yongchun coming from Liang Zan?

I wasn’t trying to put words into Jim’s mouth, I simply provided him as one of my references. My friend wishes to remain private so I honor that request and did not provide a citation from him. I only provided what Jim wrote to give you some example, that’s more than more than any of you have. What’s the address to that museum? Hendrik won’t give it up do you know?

You can insult me all you like, twist my words as you see fit. I did not misrepresent anything. It is not my fault that you do not have the capacity to see it as I did. Interpret as you like. I base my conclusions on what I know and what I interpret to be logical. Yes I took a liberal approach, but then again it wasn’t a direct quote was it? How is what I originally wrote all that different from Jim’s statement?


----------



## dlcox

BTW what my friend wrote was along the lines of what Jim wrote, just in more detail. Exactly who are you to say what depth of knowledge my friend has when I never presented what he wrote I simply paraphrased. Are you a lineage holder in Gulao style or are you getting your information from someone else, just like me?


----------



## Hendrik

Lol.

Please leave me out of your discussion.

BtW
I have coached Jim for a decade. I know his art direct from him. Please stop speculate what you don't know and 

Stop playing words game.

Also,

Your so called tibetian white crane got nothing to do with Wck , it has no soft body short strike of Wck and doesn't have the internal development of emei 12 zhuang which exist in Wck.

Please not wasting other's time keep arguing what you are clueless

Also, wing Chun is wing Chun, please do not use the term yong Chun to confuse out of everyone.

Yong Chun can be fujian white crane, shao lin Weng Chun .




dlcox said:


> Hendrik and Kung Fu Fighter as an FYI I have placed you on ignore. I no longer wish to argue with either one of you on your beliefs, its not worth my time. As long as you leave me out of any conversations I will extend the same courtesy to you.
> 
> 
> This is what I wrote:
> 
> _“Liang Zan's emphasis changed in Gulao, instead of facing the opponent he stressed Pian Shen (Side Body). He did this not because he thought it more original, he did it because he was old and wanted to avoid unnecessary contact. Using side body to avoid clashing and use of hard bridge as he knew he could not compete in that fashion with a younger stronger opponent. He stated that the Pian Shen Sanshi was a good defensive tactic but lacked the offensive properties and power generation of the Zhong Shen tactics employed by the Taolu method.”_
> 
> 
> This is what Jim wrote:
> 
> _“The Wing Chun outside of Koo Lo is the Jing Sun (straight body) "facing" style which is taught in 3 parts, Siu Lin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee. *The Wing Chun of our village is the Pin Sun Wing Chun (side body) style.* The hand methods are taught in one part but differ very little from the "facing" style, and are really from the same family.”_
> 
> When I read this I ask myself why the emphasis on side body, what is its purpose?
> 
> Here Jim gives a brief explanation, though not in detail.
> 
> _*“He was older and he would not be able to teach his new group to fight the nose to nose methods of his original art as well as he did in Futshan.* Knowing the time and training it would take to build people he chose to teach/develop a slightly different approach based on his experiences. I* tend to believe it was because most arts when they attack will charge straight in so having this experience he prepared them for what would most likely happened but also gave them the core of the straight body since there will times for usage of that.”*_
> 
> When I see this I, the choice is evident…EVASION. We practice the exact same principle in White Crane as a defensive tactic. As a counter attacking method it works well, it is not a good offensive tactic like Zhong Shen.
> 
> Being older Liang Zan would have chosen to soften his method by emphasizing counter attack tactics as compared to offensive rushing tactics. “When the opponent comes I greet him, when he leaves I escort him, when the hands break free rush forward”. I believe he emphasized the first part of this maxim when creating Gulao 40 points. There is a similar progression in White Crane as one advances in training.
> 
> Based upon information I received from my friend and my own experiences plus what Jim wrote, I drew an educated conclusion. No I am not an expert in Gulao, but do I have to be? Is it really all that different from any branch of Yongchun coming from Liang Zan?
> 
> I wasn’t trying to put words into Jim’s mouth, I simply provided him as one of my references. My friend wishes to remain private so I honor that request and did not provide a citation from him. I only provided what Jim wrote to give you some example, that’s more than more than any of you have. What’s the address to that museum? Hendrik won’t give it up do you know?
> 
> You can insult me all you like, twist my words as you see fit. I did not misrepresent anything. It is not my fault that you do not have the capacity to see it as I did. Interpret as you like. I base my conclusions on what I know and what I interpret to be logical. Yes I took a liberal approach, but then again it wasn’t a direct quote was it? How is what I originally wrote all that different from Jim’s statement?


----------



## dlcox

Hendrik said:


> Lol.
> 
> Please leave me out of your discussion.
> 
> BtW
> I have coached Jim for a decade. I know his art direct from him. Please stop speculate what you don't know and
> 
> Stop playing words game.
> 
> Also,
> 
> Your so called tibetian white crane got nothing to do with Wck , it has no soft body short strike of Wck and doesn't have the internal development of emei 12 zhuang which exist in Wck.
> 
> Please not wasting other's time keep arguing what you are clueless
> 
> Also, wing Chun is wing Chun, please do not use the term yong Chun to confuse out of everyone.
> 
> Yong Chun can be fujian white crane, shao lin Weng Chun .





1. I speculated nothing.

2. Prove that Tibetan White Crane has nothing to do with Yongchun. Show me independently verified historical documentation that states this.

3. It's interesting that _*you*_ believe I confuse people by using the term Yongchun.

4. You stated: _Your so called tibetian white crane got nothing to do with Wck , it has no soft body short strike of Wck and doesn't have the internal development of emei 12 zhuang which exist in Wck._ Are you an expert on Tibetan White Crane? Or did you just watch some videos?

As far as internal development of Yongchun, forged Quan Jue to mislead Fu Wei Zhong, re-written Cho Family Quan Jue to make compatible, historical speculation based on assumption, personal belief, re-written and interpreted oral history and taking bits of information and techniques from Fujian White Crane masters and Emei Qigong _*DO NOT *_Yongchun make!

You wouldn't have all this resistance to your "History" and "Theories" if you would have simply stated here is our version of Yongchun, we call it XXX style Yongchun and is based on this.....Instead, you degrade everyone else, call them ignorant of the "Truth" and claim to have "Found" the "Real Ancestral DNA" of Yongchun. That everyone else's Yongchun is inferior and incomplete based on your findings and that if they would only buy a book or attend a seminar could obtain what their teachers lacked. Nothing but hubris brother. You don't have the "Secret Sauce" anymore than Chi Sim Weng Chun, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun, Chan Family Wing Chun, Pan Nam Wing Chun, Cho Gar Wing Chun, Yuan Kay San Wing Chun or any other style that crawled out of the woodwork to usurp the popularity of Yip Man Wing Chun. It's all just another marketing scheme. Bugger off!


----------



## Marnetmar

The two of you seem like pleasant individuals.


----------



## zuti car

Hendrik has incredible ability to make people angry , but it easy to stop him . Basically there are two ways , first , don't pay attention to his nonsense or offer him to meet and compare the arts trough chi sao or sparring , If you do the second thing he even may call FBI or something ( I am nit very familiar with U.S. police services )


----------



## Vajramusti

zuti car said:


> Hendrik has incredible ability to make people angry , but it easy to stop him . Basically there are two ways , first , don't pay attention to his nonsense or offer him to meet and compare the arts trough chi sao or sparring , If you do the second thing he even may call FBI or something ( I am nit very familiar with U.S. police services )


---------------------------
He does not make me angry- just bored and somewhat sad.


----------



## Eric_H

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------
> He does not make me angry- just bored and somewhat sad.


+1


----------



## yak sao

zuti car said:


> ...... If you do the second thing he even may call FBI or something ( I am nit very familiar with U.S. police services )



We usually just let this guy settle all of our MA disputes


----------



## zuti car

yak sao said:


> We usually just let this guy settle all of our MA disputes
> 
> View attachment 19266


In that case I offer my sincere apologies to your MA community for everything I have ever said or even thought


----------



## Vajramusti

yak sao said:


> We usually just let this guy settle all of our MA disputes
> 
> View attachment 19266


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
His spinning sidekicks takes care of everything!!


----------



## yak sao

zuti car said:


> In that case I offer my sincere apologies to your MA community for everything I have ever said or even thought



You seem like a decent enough guy, we'll let it pass this time.....but he's watching you


----------



## Vajramusti

yak sao said:


> You seem like a decent enough guy, we'll let it pass this time.....but he's watching you


===========================

I am trembling......


----------



## jhexx




----------



## Pat M

An interesting overall discussion.  
I know little about the geniology of Wing Chun however given the minimal recorded information on this matter I don't think I'm alone.

Great topic and until recently very cordial. 

Secondarily,  I an not taking on any Texas Ranger.


----------



## Vajramusti

Pat M said:


> An interesting overall discussion.
> I know little about the geniology of Wing Chun however given the minimal recorded information on this matter I don't think I'm alone.
> 
> Great topic and until recently very cordial.
> 
> Secondarily,  I an not taking on any Texas Ranger.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oklahoma was my first state in the US.Once upon a time The Oklahoma guard stared down the Texas rangers over the Red River related boundary. So-
no problem The Sooner- UT rivalry remains.


----------



## Marnetmar

KPM said:


> From what I have seen, yes this is true.  Do a youtube search for Wong Nim Yei/Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun or Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun and see how familiar things seem to you.



I suppose a better question for me to ask is how is Yip Man's later students' Wing Chun different from his older students' Wing Chun? There's no other WC schools in my area so it's hard for me to gauge that


----------



## KPM

Thought I would resurrect this old thread because it has some bearing on recent discussions.  Some interesting information from Dave Cox at the beginning of the thread. Dave has trained in White Crane.


----------



## wckf92

KPM said:


> Thought I would resurrect this old thread because it has some bearing on recent discussions.  Some interesting information from Dave Cox at the beginning of the thread. Dave has trained in White Crane.



Wish Dave would post here still...he seemed like a very knowledgeable individual.


----------



## Vajramusti

wckf92 said:


> Wish Dave would post here still...he seemed like a very knowledgeable individual.





wckf92 said:


> Wish Dave would post here still...he seemed like a very knowledgeable individual.


------------------------------------
I forget and don't care to go back. Wasn't  Dave talking about Tibetan white crane which is far different from Fujian white crane?


----------



## KPM

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------
> I forget and don't care to go back. Wasn't  Dave talking about Tibetan white crane which is far different from Fujian white crane?



Yes.  Dave's style was Tibetan White Crane.  But he had researched and was very knowledgeable about Fujian White Crane as well.  His info about Leung Jan's family running a military academy is something I thought Guy might find interesting.  I'm not sure what Dave's source is, because I've never heard that information from anywhere else.

Dave also does Vietnamese Wing Chun.  This gives him a somewhat unique perspective and interesting things to say!  I wish he still came around as well!


----------



## Vajramusti

KPM said:


> Yes.  Dave's style was Tibetan White Crane.  But he had researched and was very knowledgeable about Fujian White Crane as well.  His info about Leung Jan's family running a military academy is something I thought Guy might find interesting.  I'm not sure what Dave's source is, because I've never heard that information from anywhere else.
> 
> Dave also does Vietnamese Wing Chun.  This gives him a somewhat unique perspective and interesting things to say!  I wish he still came around as well!


------------------------------------------------------
Apart from direction-less chit chat-what's the point?


----------



## dudewingchun

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------
> Apart from direction-less chit chat-what's the point?



A bit random. But I just was looking through posts about Lo Kwai and I came across one saying you happened to meet up with that Lo Kwai lineage guy. May I ask how was it and how similar was it to your current HKM wing chun ? Allgood if its a private thing you do not want to share though.


----------



## guy b.

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------
> Apart from direction-less chit chat-what's the point?



Point me in the direction of some chit chat you approve of please


----------



## KPM

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------
> Apart from direction-less chit chat-what's the point?



Isn't that what usually takes place on a forum?  Isn't that what we are all here for?   Why do you come here?


----------



## Vajramusti

KPM said:


> Yes.  Dave's style was Tibetan White Crane.  But he had researched and was very knowledgeable about Fujian White Crane as well.  His info about Leung Jan's family running a military academy is something I thought Guy might find interesting.  I'm not sure what Dave's source is, because I've never heard that information from anywhere else.
> 
> Dave also does Vietnamese Wing Chun.  This gives him a somewhat unique perspective and interesting things to say!  I wish he still came around as well!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yuen Kay Shan's older brother moved to Viet nam  and introduced  wing chun. His wing chun began to vary between Hanoi and Saigon versions. Some students began to mix other movements with their wing chun.
Dave's comments would be helpful.


----------



## Vajramusti

dudewingchun said:


> A bit random. But I just was looking through posts about Lo Kwai and I came across one saying you happened to meet up with that Lo Kwai lineage guy. May I ask how was it and how similar was it to your current HKM wing chun ? Allgood if its a private thing you do not want to share though.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scratching my head. Don't seem to remember the name Lo Kwai.


----------



## ivanr

KPM said:


> ... When you look at Sum Nun's student's Wing Chun and you look at Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun they are very similar.  Wong Nim Yei's father learned from Yuen Kay Shan.  No Cheung Bo influence that I've read!..



Hi KPM,

i am sorry, that is not correct. Father ("Mai Gei Wong" Wong Wu Fong) of my teacher (Wong Nim Yi) has at first trained with Kwok Wan Ping, who was at that time student of Wong Jing and today is living in Hong Kong, who introduced him to Wong Jing. Later Kwok Wan Ping started with Sam Nang. "Mai Gei Wong" later started learn from Sam Nang too (more Wong Jings students, some of them later learned from "Mai Gei Wong") and later from several others (Pan Chao to name one of them), but not Yun Key Saan...
So no wonder there are similar (Mai Gei Wong and Sam Nang) in their WingChun...
I know, that is not about Yun Key Saans wingchun but Leung Jaans, but - i am always during all my trips to China/Fatsaan, Gwongjau since 1993 looking for oldtimers of Wing Chun, but other styles too and ask many questions.  So we have met other student of Yun Key Saan in Fatsaan (probably his last one. Last year he passed away, but still have video interview and contact with his son, family and students). They use to practice different then Sam Nang. He told us, he has : "no idea where he (Sam Nang) learned his art, but Yun Key Saan taught different"... You can see it after few second of practice.

Sorry for offtopic to "Leung Jans original art"...

many greetings,
IR


----------



## KPM

Interesting!  Thanks for the input Ivan!   So to clarify...you are saying Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun comes through Sum Nun, not directly from Yuen Kay Shan?  And that people have said that Sum Nun's Wing Chun is different than Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun?   That is not the first time I've heard someone recently say that Sum Nun's Wing Chun was different from Yuen Kay Shan's!


----------



## ivanr

Hello again,



KPM said:


> Interesting!  Thanks for the input Ivan!   So to clarify...you are saying Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun comes through Sum Nun, not directly from Yuen Kay Shan?



You're welcome! Yes, not directly from Yun Key Saan, but his students and grandstudents. Todays "Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun" comes from my teacher, Wong Nim Yi sifu and his (Sifu) father ideas.



> And that people have said that Sum Nun's Wing Chun is different than Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun?



 not only "people" - Yun Key Saans direct and probably last student, whose father was a student of the same teacher as Yun Key Saan and Yun Key Saans close friend in Fatsaan.

many greetings, Ivan


----------



## dudewingchun

ivanr said:


> Hello again,
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome! Yes, not directly from Yun Key Saan, but his students and grandstudents. Todays "Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun" comes from my teacher, Wong Nim Yi sifu and his (Sifu) father ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> not only "people" - Yun Key Saans direct and probably last student, whose father was a student of the same teacher as Yun Key Saan and Yun Key Saans close friend in Fatsaan.
> 
> many greetings, Ivan



Interesing. Everything I have read about Sum Nung says he was Yuen Kay San's only proper disciple ? Didnt he mix it with his first teacher Cheung Bo's wing chun ?



Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------
> Apart from direction-less chit chat-what's the point?



Isnt that the point of the forum ? Some people ( like me ) Like to train to fight but also just like to waste time researching about wing chun history and all that just because I find it all interesting like reading a good book.


----------



## ivanr

dudewingchun said:


> Interesing. Everything I have read about Sum Nung says he was Yuen Kay San's only proper disciple ? Didnt he mix it with his first teacher Cheung Bo's wing chun ?



Hello "dudewingchun",

Yun Key Saan had more students then just one. Sam Nang had for sure mixed Jeung Bous teaching with that from Yun Key Saan (and others), but i do not know and i think no one knows for sure what he learned, what he mixed, how much and if identic or changed...
greetings, ir


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## wckf92

ivanr said:


> Hello "dudewingchun",
> 
> Yun Key Saan had more students then just one. Sam Nang had for sure mixed Jeung Bous teaching with that from Yun Key Saan (and others), but i do not know and i think no one knows for sure what he learned, what he mixed, how much and if identic or changed...
> greetings, ir



Ivan...is there someone out there who is teaching pure Yuen Kay San Wing Chun?


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## ivanr

wckf92 said:


> Ivan...is there someone out there who is teaching pure Yuen Kay San Wing Chun?



Hello wckf92,

pure Yun Key Saan WingChun died with him, but if you mean YKS with no influence of Sam Nang, then i know about that family in China. No outside.
greetings, IR


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## wckf92

ivanr said:


> Hello wckf92,
> 
> pure Yun Key Saan WingChun died with him, but if you mean YKS with no influence of Sam Nang, then i know about that family in China. No outside.
> greetings, IR



Thank you!
Heard that YKS had some training in 'throwing darts'? Was wondering if that has survived to the modern day...


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## ivanr

wckf92 said:


> Thank you!
> Heard that YKS had some training in 'throwing darts'? Was wondering if that has survived to the modern day...


 
I remember that in the past, my teacher Wong Nim Yi said that as a child he had to practice with his brothers "to throw coins". We had then lot of funn during it. Maybe there is some kind of connection with "throwing darts". But nothing more. During my meetings with oldtimers in China, no one told me that YKS was skilled in 'throwing darts' (if I remember correctly). It was maybe his personal skill, no part of his teachings? Many Sifus are practicing some specific skills, sometimes outside of border of their "styles".

greetings, ir


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## wckf92

ivanr said:


> I remember that in the past, my teacher Wong Nim Yi said that as a child he had to practice with his brothers "to throw coins". We had then lot of funn during it. Maybe there is some kind of connection with "throwing darts". But nothing more. During my meetings with oldtimers in China, no one told me that YKS was skilled in 'throwing darts' (if I remember correctly). It was maybe his personal skill, no part of his teachings? Many Sifus are practicing some specific skills, sometimes outside of border of their "styles".
> 
> greetings, ir



Cool...thx man!


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## Vajramusti

ivanr said:


> Hi KPM,
> 
> i am sorry, that is not correct. Father ("Mai Gei Wong" Wong Wu Fong) of my teacher (Wong Nim Yi) has at first trained with Kwok Wan Ping, who was at that time student of Wong Jing and today is living in Hong Kong, who introduced him to Wong Jing. Later Kwok Wan Ping started with Sam Nang. "Mai Gei Wong" later started learn from Sam Nang too (more Wong Jings students, some of them later learned from "Mai Gei Wong") and later from several others (Pan Chao to name one of them), but not Yun Key Saan...
> So no wonder there are similar (Mai Gei Wong and Sam Nang) in their WingChun...
> I know, that is not about Yun Key Saans wingchun but Leung Jaans, but - i am always during all my trips to China/Fatsaan, Gwongjau since 1993 looking for oldtimers of Wing Chun, but other styles too and ask many questions.  So we have met other student of Yun Key Saan in Fatsaan (probably his last one. Last year he passed away, but still have video interview and contact with his son, family and students). They use to practice different then Sam Nang. He told us, he has : "no idea where he (Sam Nang) learned his art, but Yun Key Saan taught different"... You can see it after few second of practice.
> 
> Sorry for offtopic to "Leung Jans original art"...
> 
> many greetings,
> IR


---------------------------------------------------
From what I gather Sum Nun like many sifus had an ego .He was not a happy, I gather,  that his art was called YKS wing chun because he made his contributions to his art. When the well known webmaster of YKS wing chun went to meet Sum Nun- he was given an earful on this.Presto- soon after that the website was changed with the label Sum Nun wing chun.No criticism intended.


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## Jens

ivanr said:


> Hi KPM,
> 
> We have met other student of Yun Key Saan in Fatsaan (probably his last one. Last year he passed away, but still have video interview and contact with his son, family and students). They use to practice different then Sam Nang. He told us, he has : "no idea where he (Sam Nang) learned his art, but Yun Key Saan taught different"... You can see it after few second of practice.



Hi Ivan,
            Whats the name of the gentleman you are referring to here that Learnt directly from YKS, is it Leung Ngau?


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## ivanr

Jens said:


> Hi Ivan,
> Whats the name of the gentleman you are referring to here that Learnt directly from YKS, is it Leung Ngau?



Hi Jens,
no, it is not Leung Ngau (nephew of Yun Key Saans wife), but I know him too and I know who you mean.. 

Sorry, i do not want to name him for now.  First, i stoped to give any detailed info about most of my friends and masters in China after BAD experiences in past, and second i do not know if family agree. But in April i will be again there, will ask his son and wife and if not problem, will show some footages and info about him if someone is interested.


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## Jens

ivanr said:


> In April i will be again there, will ask his son and wife and if not problem, will show some footages and info about him if someone is interested.



Thanks Ivan, that would be great, I am sure many on here will appreciate it. I know I will.


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## Nobody Important

wckf92 said:


> Wish Dave would post here still...he seemed like a very knowledgeable individual.


This was a good thread. 

He was banned.

I'll see if I can channel him,


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## Nobody Important

KPM said:


> Yes.  Dave's style was Tibetan White Crane.  But he had researched and was very knowledgeable about Fujian White Crane as well.  His info about Leung Jan's family running a military academy is something I thought Guy might find interesting.  I'm not sure what Dave's source is, because I've never heard that information from anywhere else.
> 
> Dave also does Vietnamese Wing Chun.  This gives him a somewhat unique perspective and interesting things to say!  I wish he still came around as well!


The story of the Leung family military academy is verified in the new book by Judkins & Nielsen titled The History of Wing Chun. Leung Jan's father was a physician & the Leung clan were merchants. Aligned with the Hung Mun, they opened one of the many Yi halls, based on the original Zong Yi association. Here Wing Chun & Hung Gar were taught side by side.

Interestingly enough, Lam Sai Wing's grandfather taught him Red Boat Hung Gar prior to him learning from Wong Fei Hung. Red Boat Hung Gar consisted of the Arrow Palm form, 6 1/2 Point pole & Heung Yuet double knives. It is said to be a system very similar to Wing Chun. Lam Sai Wing incorporated it into the Hung Gar he learned from Wong Fei Hung to create the Lam Family style of Hung Gar.

Most likely that this Red Boat Hung Gar was formulated in one of Foshan's many Yi association halls. Even possibly the Leung family academy, though no one is certain. Having seen this system it is very similar to Hung Fa Yi style, as Hung Fa Yi was one of Foshan's many Yi association halls.

It's interesting, unfortunately little more is known about who actually taught at these halls or exactly what was taught beyond the vague terms Wing Chun & Hung Gar. I suspect that is where lineage histories actually come into play.

In truth, currently Wing Chun cannot be verified beyond Foshan, as no documentation has yet been verified. There are stories but they are just that until they can be collaborated.

As far as what was actually taught we only have what Leung Jan said existed. San Sik from Leung Yi Tai & forms from Wong Wah Bo. We have to assume these two men were the instructors at some point for the Leung Family martial academy. In Leung Jan's own words the system of Wing Chun was originally loose technique. So Kuluo is most likely the most original method.

According to oral history, Leung Jan said Wong Wah Bo created the forms. Leung Yi Tai says that the San Sik came from White Crane as taught by opera performer Li Wen Mao. 

White Crane shares the same oral history as Hung Gar and is most likely why they were paired together. Here in this pairing, is where the branches not coming from Leung Jan occur. Doesn't make them any less original, as we really don't know what Leung Yi Tai actually passed down. We only have what Leung Jan says he did. Until a another lineage of Leung Yi Tai arises, who has no affiliation with Leung Jan, we don't exactly know what original Wing Chun looked like.

Our only course is to compare Kuluo with White Crane, problem is White Crane has gone through many revisions. When Tai Chi was introduced to the south in the early part of the 1900's. The internal theory was introduced and the art of White Crane was made more internal. Too hard to sort out what is what without verified documentation of the era.


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## wckf92

Nobody Important said:


> This was a good thread.
> 
> He was banned.
> 
> I'll see if I can channel him,



haha...sounds good N.I. And let me know if you do channel him....because, if I recall correctly, he is somewhere here in the eastern US. Would like to maybe do a meet up. Thanks man!


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## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> The story of the Leung family military academy is verified in the new book by Judkins & Nielsen titled The History of Wing Chun.



Ok



> Leung Jan's father was a physician & the Leung clan were merchants. Aligned with the Hung Mun, they opened one of the many Yi halls, based on the original Zong Yi association. Here Wing Chun & Hung Gar were taught side by side.



Judkins is not a supporter of the idea that anti Qing rebels were hanging around in 1850s Foshan, for good reason. Why would you accept the idea of the Leung military academy from Judkins, but then superimpose your own completely different idea about what it was teaching and why?


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## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> Ok
> 
> 
> 
> Judkins is not a supporter of the idea that anti Qing rebels were hanging around in 1850s Foshan, for good reason. Why would you accept the idea of the Leung military academy from Judkins, but then superimpose your own completely different idea about what it was teaching and why?


I never mentioned anti Ching rebels, I said there was an alignment with Hung Mun. During these times if you weren't a member of one of these societies you would be subject to extortion and also viewed as a Ching sympathizer, stated in the book. Mainly the Leung academy was an armed escort service. The Yi academies were based on the original Zong Yi academy, which was anti Ching. Later these schools would be the main rival of the Ching Woo association. Interesting fact is that the government sought to completely eliminate all existence of the Zong Yi schools because of their activities. This is also mentioned in the book. Now logic dictates that there was some government subversion going on with some of these groups, some are even documented, never did I mention that anyone was a rebel or that Wing Chun was involved in anti government activities, though it is documented the the Opera was, but that was largely a tax revolt and not anti Ching. What was taught at these Yi academies in Foshan was Wing Chun & Hung Gar, also stated in the book, so Judkins & Nielsen confirmed it, I didn't superimpose anything. So either they are contradicting themselves or that's what was taught. Oral histories tell us that was what was taught and some documents of the era state that was what was taught. I don't find it hard to believe. This isn't my story, if you find issue with it take it up with the authors.


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## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> I never mentioned anti Ching rebels, I said there was an alignment with Hung Mun. During these times if you weren't a member of one of these societies you would be subject to extortion and also viewed as a Ching sympathizer, stated in the book. Mainly the Leung academy was an armed escort service. The Yi academies were based on the original Zong Yi academy, which was anti Ching. Later these schools would be the main rival of the Ching Woo association. Interesting fact is that the government sought to completely eliminate all existence of the Zong Yi schools because of their activities. This is also mentioned in the book.



You are getting your dates confused. In 1850s Foshan anything even vaguely associated with rebellion was being rounded up and executed. Alignment with Hung Mun at that time would be insane and would lead to almost certain death. If the Leung family had a "miltary academy" then it must have been one that the government were happy with, i.e. pro Qing. 



Nobody Important said:


> Most likely that this Red Boat Hung Gar was formulated in one of Foshan's many Yi association halls. Even possibly the Leung family academy, though no one is certain. Having seen this system it is very similar to Hung Fa Yi style, as Hung Fa Yi was one of Foshan's many Yi association halls.



He mentions Yi association again at a much later date. In 1850s Foshan any connection to such societies or "red boats" would be a death sentence. 

The obvious conclusion is that VT had absolutely nothing to do with red boats, opera performers, secret societies, or anti Qing sentiment, and that such ideas are a bit of 20th century romantic storytelling. From what I can gather this is Judkins belief.


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## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> You are getting your dates confused. In 1850s Foshan anything even vaguely associated with rebellion was being rounded up and executed. Alignment with Hung Mun at that time would be insane and would lead to almost certain death. If the Leung family had a "miltary academy" then it must have been one that the government were happy with, i.e. pro Qing.
> 
> 
> 
> He mentions Yi association again at a much later date. In 1850s Foshan any connection to such societies or "red boats" would be a death sentence.
> 
> The obvious conclusion is that VT had absolutely nothing to do with red boats, opera performers, secret societies, or anti Qing sentiment, and that such ideas are a bit of 20th century romantic storytelling. From what I can gather this is Judkins belief.


OK, if you say so.


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## KPM

Nobody Important said:


> This was a good thread.
> 
> He was banned.
> 
> I'll see if I can channel him,



I don't remember Dave being banned.  I think he just decided he didn't have time for forums.


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## KPM

wckf92 said:


> haha...sounds good N.I. And let me know if you do channel him....because, if I recall correctly, he is somewhere here in the eastern US. Would like to maybe do a meet up. Thanks man!



He lives in Penn.


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## KPM

. _Red Boat Hung Gar consisted of the Arrow Palm form, 6 1/2 Point pole & Heung Yuet double knives. It is said to be a system very similar to Wing Chun._

---Now that would be very interesting to see!

_Most likely that this Red Boat Hung Gar was formulated in one of Foshan's many Yi association halls. Even possibly the Leung family academy, though no one is certain. Having seen this system it is very similar to Hung Fa Yi style, as Hung Fa Yi was one of Foshan's many Yi association halls._

---I'd be careful drawing that conclusion.  I'm still not convinced that HFY's "history" is legit.  There are some definite problems there.  Garret Gee has quite a martial arts background.  Any similarities could simply be of his own creation.


_In truth, currently Wing Chun cannot be verified beyond Foshan, as no documentation has yet been verified. There are stories but they are just that until they can be collaborated._

---Very true!

_In Leung Jan's own words the system of Wing Chun was originally loose technique. So Kuluo is most likely the most original method._

---I'd say "most original format."  But we don't know how much Leung Jan changed things around when he taught in Ku Lo.  It was supposed to be the distillation of his own decades of training and fighting experience and not necessarily what he may have learned from Leung Yee Tai.  But likely pretty close!  Maybe just with his own "finishing touches" or "refinements."


_According to oral history, Leung Jan said Wong Wah Bo created the forms. Leung Yi Tai says that the San Sik came from White Crane as taught by opera performer Li Wen Mao._

---That's what makes the most sense to me as well.   I asked Sifu Michael Tang about a White Crane connection to Weng Chun.  Lee Kong is actually a close friend of his in Hong Kong.   But he doesn't believe it.  He sticks with the idea that Weng Chun is a condensation or distillation of the Shaolin methods.  He doesn't comment on Wing Chun.


_Until a another lineage of Leung Yi Tai arises, who has no affiliation with Leung Jan, we don't exactly know what original Wing Chun looked like._

---Part of the oral history of Weng Chun says that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were friends and contemporaries.  And that Fung Siu Ching stuck up for Leung Jan in a rivalry with another Weng Chun teacher and settled the dispute by pointing out that they were teaching the same system.   Just a story, and likely just made up for a newspaper article.  But an interesting tidbit nonetheless.   The beginning form of Weng Chun is divided into eleven sections.  Each of those 11 sections has a two-man Chi Sau drill that goes with it to teach the concept and application within that section.  One could easily see each of those sections being practiced individually as a San Sik.   Sounds a bit like Ku Lo WCK, don't you think?  

_ Too hard to sort out what is what without verified documentation of the era._

---Yep.  That's the age-old problem that isn't likely to change!


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## Nobody Important

_I'd be careful drawing that conclusion.  I'm still not convinced that HFY's "history" is legit.  There are some definite problems there.  Garret Gee has quite a martial arts background.  Any similarities could simply be of his own creation_.

---Red Boat Hung Gar is not the same as Garrett Gee WC though there are simularities. Would agree with you on their version of the history, many things don't add up. The Hung Fa Yi was a real society and Hung Fa Yi was a termed used by many WC people during those times, however I don't believe that a specific style of WC ever held the name. So that is something that still needs investigated.


I_'d say "most original format."  But we don't know how much Leung Jan changed things around when he taught in Ku Lo.  It was supposed to be the distillation of his own decades of training and fighting experience and not necessarily what he may have learned from Leung Yee Tai.  But likely pretty close!  Maybe just with his own "finishing touches" or "refinements."_

---This is very true & I meant to allude to that. Leung Jan almost certainly developed & taught his own interpretation of what he was taught.
_
That's what makes the most sense to me as well.   I asked Sifu Michael Tang about a White Crane connection to Weng Chun.  Lee Kong is actually a close friend of his in Hong Kong.   But he doesn't believe it.  He sticks with the idea that Weng Chun is a condensation or distillation of the Shaolin methods.  He doesn't comment on Wing Chun._

----Though I don't share that same belief, for various reasons. I can certainly understand why he wouldn't want to jump into that rabbit hole.
_
Part of the oral history of Weng Chun says that Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching were friends and contemporaries.  And that Fung Siu Ching stuck up for Leung Jan in a rivalry with another Weng Chun teacher and settled the dispute by pointing out that they were teaching the same system.   Just a story, and likely just made up for a newspaper article.  But an interesting tidbit nonetheless.   The beginning form of Weng Chun is divided into eleven sections.  Each of those 11 sections has a two-man Chi Sau drill that goes with it to teach the concept and application within that section.  One could easily see each of those sections being practiced individually as a San Sik.   Sounds a bit like Ku Lo WCK, don't you think?_ 

---I've heard several versions of this tale, even with different people. The premises is Form vs San Sik in all of them. Generally the Form person stating they are the original & only true method, lol.


----------

