# First Night of BBC Week-Chil Sung/Grappling



## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

This week is Black Belt Club week at our school.  It was a blast and a great learning experience.

The class warmd up and then we split into two groups, one BBC and the other non-BBC.

We learned a _*grappling technique - how to get out of a bear hug*_ from behind and incapacitate (and maim) the attacker.  So, if a male is coming from behind and bear hugs you, you chop to his groin on the side that his foot is back (not his forward foot side), he will double over and you then slide down to the ground (free of his grasp).  Punch his privates with the same hand you chopped with.  He will double over again. Make sure your legs are spread. Grab either side of his shoulders and pull him over (a roll) onto his back.  Chop or hammer his nose.  You can then get up and use the four-square method on either arm (move to the same side you chopped/hammered with).  This was the first time I'd heard of or practiced the four-square method.  All I can say is, "BREAK!"

If a woman is attacking you, you can pinch the devil out of her inside thigh and you would still punch her privates upon hitting the ground.  I imagine a chop to a woman's groin would also hurt if your "brain" decided not to pinch!

Next, we began learning *Chil-Sung Il Ro-Hyung.  *We made it from the beginning to the part where you sit back on one leg, cradle the hands and slowly push out.  I viewed some videos on YouTube and I would say that's about 1/3 of the way through the form?  I see where we do the form different (ahhh!).  In the beginning, after the second punch and you turn left, (can't remember next step - is it opening the arms again?), we do a Yup Makee, a chun dan hadon sudo makee, then a side punch.  Then, we turn over on our left foot, grab the left wrist with our right hand...

I'm not sure how BBC works.  I wouldn't think we'd learn the entire form this week.  Not everyone can come every night.  I would hope that we would pick it up next month where we left off. Now, wouldn't that be a cool form for me to do in the October competition???!!!  Not enough time to learn it though.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 12, 2007)

Hrm...yeah, but suppose the person bear hugs you like a normal person, without one leg forward and one back? 

And it's interesting that you're learning the Chil Sung forms, especially so early. The ITF doesn't teach them, so I don't know when they're usually taught, but I was given the impression that they were fairly higher-level.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

In Soo Bahk Do, Chil Sung Ill Lo is a 3rd Gup form.  Actually, most consider Chil Sung Ee Lo to be much easier than Il.  That first form is very difficult to do correctly....with the long chinese stances, the slow pushing movements, the contrast between the fast and slow, contrast between tension and relaxation........there's a lot to think about!!  Biggest tip is to USE YOUR HIPS!!!  Those pushing movements don't do anything unless you use your hips.

I'm not sure I completely follow the escape there, Lynne.  At what point do you face your attacker?  Also, can you expound a bit on the pulling the attacker onto their back?   I've definately learned different bear hug escapes.


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Hrm...yeah, but suppose the person bear hugs you like a normal person, without one leg forward and one back?
> 
> And it's interesting that you're learning the Chil Sung forms, especially so early. The ITF doesn't teach them, so I don't know when they're usually taught, but I was given the impression that they were fairly higher-level.


Good question about the bear hug.  Hmmm.  I think we're assuming that someone is using momentum, making us stumble forward so one of their legs would also be forward.  Hmmm.  How would we get out of a bear hug if both legs were forward.  In women's self-defense, we were taught to bring our heel back and pummel the shins (or the knees if you're up in the air-someone trying to cart you off).  If you can't grab a the groin of the inner leg I don't know how you'd get out of it. Anyone have any suggestions????

The Chil-Sung forms are usually taught at Black Belt.  But in BBC, we get to learn some of them.  The one we are learning is performed slow and takes control, very interesting.  Breathing is important, too.  There are times to exhale as a group, part of the unison thing and discipline.  My daughter learned Chil-Sung Il Ryun (sp?) months ago when she was a yellow belt and might perform that during the competition.  A lot of our people place in forms because they know the higher forms (and we place a lot of emphasis on preparation and control in all of our forms).  Sometimes it backfires because the judges don't know the Chil-Sung forms though.  Some of the moves in this Chil-Sung form are done in what looks like a "crappy" front stance because both legs are bent.  So, if a judge wasn't familiar with the form, he/she might think you were executing a bad stance.  And if they don't know the form, how can they judge you properly?

Oops - MBuzzy said this Chil Sung was a 3rd Gup form.


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> In Soo Bahk Do, Chil Sung Ill Lo is a 3rd Gup form. Actually, most consider Chil Sung Ee Lo to be much easier than Il. That first form is very difficult to do correctly....with the long chinese stances, the slow pushing movements, the contrast between the fast and slow, contrast between tension and relaxation........there's a lot to think about!! Biggest tip is to USE YOUR HIPS!!! Those pushing movements don't do anything unless you use your hips.
> 
> I'm not sure I completely follow the escape there, Lynne. At what point do you face your attacker? Also, can you expound a bit on the pulling the attacker onto their back? I've definately learned different bear hug escapes.


Oh, so the Chil-Sung is 3rd Gup.  Sorry, JT, I thought they were Dan forms.

Thanks, MBuzzy, for the tip about using the hips.  Yes...there sure is a lot to think about, especially for this orange belt, lol. In fact, I hadn't done chun dan hadon sudo makee before so that was like throwing another wrench in there.  It was challenging moving that slow.  I have to say I was happy to explode into a punch.   I felt like I was finally going somewhere.  

As far as the bear hug, you only face your attacker if you decide to get into a cradle position at their side and then do a four-square move (unless you count pummeling their face with you above them - I'll explain the throw/pull).  

After you slide down to the ground, spread your legs to make room for the attacker and so he doesn't land on your legs.  You will be sitting up.  You punch his privates which makes him double over.  You reach up andgrab both sides of his dobok/shirt sleeves/deltoid area.  All you have to do is pull.  The attacker will go over your shoulder or head and onto his back between your legs.  The top of his head will be between your upper thighs.  You then fist or chop his nose. If you do that with your right hand, you move to his right into a cradle position and do one of the four-square moves. Conversely, if you chop with your left hand, you move to the his left.

As far as the actual escape, we were told, "you don't stop (pummeling)."  I'm not sure what I would do in a real-life situation.  After I threw the guy, I might stand up, slam my foot into his nose and run.  I imagine you might be able to run after he goes over but he better be hurt and you better be fast. It's an awkward position to get up from.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2007)

I miss competing in kata comps and have thought of entering 'open' competitions where they say you can do any kata/form/hyung etc from any stle but the question Lynne brought up about judging has always worried me. Also as it's clear from here a lot of us seem to do our hyungs with variations so how would a judge who does it Lynnes way for example judge it if I'm doing it the way I've been taught? As Lynne says about her front stance with both legs bent, we don't have that in the version we do so I would wonder about it and vice versa if the judge was used to the both legs bent stance.

I think Chil Sung il Ro though if done well in any variation is a good demo/competition hyung as you have good contrasts to show off in it. Slow control, power moves and it's excellent done to music! Try Clannad's Harry's Game!


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## MBuzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

Lynne said:


> As far as the bear hug, you only face your attacker if you decide to get into a cradle position at their side and then do a four-square move (unless you count pummeling their face with you above them - I'll explain the throw/pull).
> 
> After you slide down to the ground, spread your legs to make room for the attacker and so he doesn't land on your legs. You will be sitting up. You punch his privates which makes him double over. You reach up andgrab both sides of his dobok/shirt sleeves/deltoid area. All you have to do is pull. The attacker will go over your shoulder or head and onto his back between your legs. The top of his head will be between your upper thighs. You then fist or chop his nose. If you do that with your right hand, you move to his right into a cradle position and do one of the four-square moves. Conversely, if you chop with your left hand, you move to the his left.
> 
> As far as the actual escape, we were told, "you don't stop (pummeling)." I'm not sure what I would do in a real-life situation. After I threw the guy, I might stand up, slam my foot into his nose and run. I imagine you might be able to run after he goes over but he better be hurt and you better be fast. It's an awkward position to get up from.


 
I definately think in a real situation, I'd skip the throw.  Sounds like its a difficult throw to pull off against an unwilling attacker.  All of the bear hug escapes I know involve either a SOLID escape prior to attack or getting behind the attacker for a throw.  In a situation like that, my biggest concern would be inflicting some pain and getting some distance.


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I miss competing in kata comps and have thought of entering 'open' competitions where they say you can do any kata/form/hyung etc from any stle but the question Lynne brought up about judging has always worried me. Also as it's clear from here a lot of us seem to do our hyungs with variations so how would a judge who does it Lynnes way for example judge it if I'm doing it the way I've been taught? As Lynne says about her front stance with both legs bent, we don't have that in the version we do so I would wonder about it and vice versa if the judge was used to the both legs bent stance.
> 
> I think Chil Sung il Ro though if done well in any variation is a good demo/competition hyung as you have good contrasts to show off in it. Slow control, power moves and it's excellent done to music! Try Clannad's Harry's Game!


Hey Tez,

You should enter some competitions.  You'd probably love it.

I hadn't thought of doing the forms to music before.  I'll have to try it.

Honestly, I don't know how the judges can judge any of our forms.  Even the Pyung Ahn Cho Dan I do is different from what some of the people here do.  I was wondering why you thought I was doing a Kap Kwan Kon Kyuk.   I see most peope do that in the Pyung Ahn Cho Dan.  We do a high hammer strike with the arm at an approximate 45 degree angle - no backfist.  Ahhh!

I might do a Chil-Sun anyway - if I can learn one in time.  Oh, but there is so much to learn at this level though.  I spotlight in two weeks and haven't been taught my 5 new one-steps or 2 new wrist grips yet.  Panic.


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I definately think in a real situation, I'd skip the throw. Sounds like its a difficult throw to pull off against an unwilling attacker. All of the bear hug escapes I know involve either a SOLID escape prior to attack or getting behind the attacker for a throw. In a situation like that, my biggest concern would be inflicting some pain and getting some distance.


I wasn't thinking.  The escape is when you slide down!  After the initial groin chop, he's going let go or loosen his grip and you can slide down to the ground.  But, see, I was thinking, "I'm on the ground.  I still feel trapped."  Does that make sense?


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## MBuzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I wasn't thinking. The escape is when you slide down! After the initial groin chop, he's going let go or loosen his grip and you can slide down to the ground. But, see, I was thinking, "I'm on the ground. I still fell trapped." Does that make sense?


 
Exactly - even after the throw, it seems like you're still pretty close to your opponent in a vulnerable position and he has plenty of weapons (limbs) available.

Try kicking in the shins or hammerfisting the groin, then dropping into Keema Jaseh and driving your arms straight down, like a very low punch with both arms.  The strike loosens the grip, dropping and driving your arms down loosens it more and puts his grip much higher on your body, following that, simply raise your elbows up and away from your body and he just slides off....then you can turn and go to town.

you can also do the same thing, only step behind with the opposite leg and do a throw.  Of course, there are hundreds of ways to respond to any attack.


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Exactly - even after the throw, it seems like you're still pretty close to your opponent in a vulnerable position and he has plenty of weapons (limbs) available.
> 
> Try kicking in the shins or hammerfisting the groin, then dropping into Keema Jaseh and driving your arms straight down, like a very low punch with both arms. The strike loosens the grip, dropping and driving your arms down loosens it more and puts his grip much higher on your body, following that, simply raise your elbows up and away from your body and he just slides off....then you can turn and go to town.
> 
> you can also do the same thing, only step behind with the opposite leg and do a throw. Of course, there are hundreds of ways to respond to any attack.


Thanks for the description.  It sounds like a very practical way to get out of the hold.

The throw is familiar to me, although it's been 20 years since I took judo. The groin strike could provide some momentum for the throw, too.


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## Tez3 (Sep 12, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Thanks for the description. It sounds like a very practical way to get out of the hold.
> 
> The throw is familiar to me, although it's been 20 years since I took judo. *The groin strike could provide some momentum for the throw, too.[/*quote]
> 
> That conjured up some very wicked and for the attacker painful thoughts!! I was taught, quite a few years ago now, not to be squemish ( or prudish!) in situations like this and to grab the testicles hard and twist. I know the slide down escape too, its a good one but as said before it can leave you vulnerable on the floor if you aren't used to it, there is a takefown you can do with your legs, am thinking how to describe it. I'm off to work in  a minute (nights) so I'll have a think then post in the morning! Plus any others I can think of!


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Lynne said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the description. It sounds like a very practical way to get out of the hold.
> ...


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## JWLuiza (Sep 12, 2007)

Ok - I should be writing a med school application essay, so I'll make this quick!

1.  Lynne, sounds like you are having fun.  JT hit it on the head when he gave a what if scenario.  But, like I said elsewhere, you'll learn a whole bunch of "techniques" or escapes.  Your goal is to encapsulate WHY each of these escapes work.  Eventually, and for me this happened about two years after I acheived yudanja, you will instead think of concepts.  For me, the thought process for a bear hug (or any grab might be): I moving forward in a line... GET OFF line.  Pin something of the attacker to me, take control.  From there, I get to decide on the technique.  But to get there, you have to drill all the rote memorization hundreds of times.  So while JT has a point, just keep doing what they are teaching you and you will get there.

2.  Judging Competitions.  I have experience judging open tournaments (not XMA, but open to style, traditional forms) and I find it very easy to judge.  I don't know dance, but when I watch so you think you can dance, I am still able to have a good grasp of who is the best dancer and can compare between dancers.  It's not if you are doing the form correctly, it is HOW WELL you control your body, presence, and performance.  Pick a form and go to you tube and see if you can pick 3 or 4 and judge for yourself.


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## Lynne (Sep 12, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Ok - I should be writing a med school application essay, so I'll make this quick!
> 
> 1. Lynne, sounds like you are having fun. JT hit it on the head when he gave a what if scenario. But, like I said elsewhere, you'll learn a whole bunch of "techniques" or escapes. Your goal is to encapsulate WHY each of these escapes work. Eventually, and for me this happened about two years after I acheived yudanja, you will instead think of concepts. For me, the thought process for a bear hug (or any grab might be): I moving forward in a line... GET OFF line. Pin something of the attacker to me, take control. From there, I get to decide on the technique. But to get there, you have to drill all the rote memorization hundreds of times. So while JT has a point, just keep doing what they are teaching you and you will get there.
> 
> 2. Judging Competitions. I have experience judging open tournaments (not XMA, but open to style, traditional forms) and I find it very easy to judge. I don't know dance, but when I watch so you think you can dance, I am still able to have a good grasp of who is the best dancer and can compare between dancers. It's not if you are doing the form correctly, it is HOW WELL you control your body, presence, and performance. Pick a form and go to you tube and see if you can pick 3 or 4 and judge for yourself.


Hey JW,

Good luck on the medical school application essay!

Thank you for taking the time to answer.  I think it will be awhile before concepts take hold or become available to my mind.

I have viewed some of the YouTube videos.  Some were ghastly, I thought.  In fact, I don't believe some of those people really have black belts because of lack of preparation, flinging the arms around, etc.  Some of the children were the best, in my humble opinion.  I'm new and  sure don't know all there is to know about forms, but I know a crappy performance when I see one.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 13, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I miss competing in kata comps and have thought of entering 'open' competitions where they say you can do any kata/form/hyung etc from any stle but the question Lynne brought up about judging has always worried me. Also as it's clear from here a lot of us seem to do our hyungs with variations so how would a judge who does it Lynnes way for example judge it if I'm doing it the way I've been taught? As Lynne says about her front stance with both legs bent, we don't have that in the version we do so I would wonder about it and vice versa if the judge was used to the both legs bent stance.
> 
> I think Chil Sung il Ro though if done well in any variation is a good demo/competition hyung as you have good contrasts to show off in it. Slow control, power moves and it's excellent done to music! Try Clannad's Harry's Game!



That's always a big concern with the tournaments C.S. Kim sponsors in Pittsburgh every year. People come from several different styles and schools. There are two countermeasures taken in consideration of this: (1) We try to get judges from all styles represented, not just ITF TSD. (2) Judges are told point blank to judge not based on whether they do the form the same way (or at all), but whether or not the technique is correct, and whether or not the competitor shows focus, control, and spirit. In fact, it's quite often that people from other styles take home 1st place in the forms competition, for quite another reason: with so many TSD people at the tournament, and especially ITF TSD, most of the people of the same rank are doing the same form, so anyone who breaks the pattern makes an automatic impression on the judges. 

As to the bear-hug scenario, I agree that the throw's not the thing you want to focus on first. First, get out of the person's grip. If they grab you around the midsection with your arms pinned, drop down so that your elbows can bend and drive an elbow into the person's solar plexus or a backfist into his _ko wan_. That should loosen his grip, allowing you to free yourself. Then just run.


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## cdunn (Sep 13, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> That's always a big concern with the tournaments C.S. Kim sponsors in Pittsburgh every year. People come from several different styles and schools. There are two countermeasures taken in consideration of this: (1) We try to get judges from all styles represented, not just ITF TSD. (2) Judges are told point blank to judge not based on whether they do the form the same way (or at all), but whether or not the technique is correct, and whether or not the competitor shows focus, control, and spirit. In fact, it's quite often that people from other styles take home 1st place in the forms competition, for quite another reason: with so many TSD people at the tournament, and especially ITF TSD, most of the people of the same rank are doing the same form, so anyone who breaks the pattern makes an automatic impression on the judges.


 
Yes. In fact, in my division at Master Mignogna's spring invitational, we had two Eagle Claw Kung Fu students. The senior of the two took home 1st place from the division, as he displayed focus, spirit, power, and clearly purposeful techniques in his form. 

I had to spar him, too. I lost, but it was perhaps the most memorable, and in retrospect, enjoyable fight I've ever had, and a brutal demonstration of the principles of distance control. 

Most of the fun of tournaments is playing the game with people who are different from you. Go up, do your best, have fun, pay attention to the differences. 

About the Chil Sung.. I dunno. I've started learning Chil Sung E Ro recently, before Il Ro. It is a very different form. The body mechanics are peculiar. I don't really know it well enough to comment on it, though.


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## Lynne (Sep 13, 2007)

cdunn said:


> Yes. In fact, in my division at Master Mignogna's spring invitational, we had two Eagle Claw Kung Fu students. The senior of the two took home 1st place from the division, as he displayed focus, spirit, power, and clearly purposeful techniques in his form.
> 
> I had to spar him, too. I lost, but it was perhaps the most memorable, and in retrospect, enjoyable fight I've ever had, and a brutal demonstration of the principles of distance control.
> 
> ...


My daughter learned Chil Sung E Ro first.  She wants to teach it to me so I can perform it in the October tournament.  I don't know how difficult it is to learn...I have so much to learn right now.

I definitely will work on focus, spirit, and power in my Pyong Ahn Chodan form.


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