# Jujutsu Gi Choke Video... You Did It A Wee Bit Too Much



## MA-Caver (Jun 17, 2012)

I'm not sure what exactly went wrong here but the instructor definitely wasn't paying attention to EVERYTHING that was happening. 

[yt]cwbnESDByLA[/yt]







apologies if this has already been posted previously


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2012)

Bow and arrow choke.  Gets VERY tight.


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 17, 2012)

yeah... well at least he didn't kill him


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## MA-Caver (Jun 18, 2012)

Gentle Fist said:


> yeah... well at least he didn't kill him


Yeah, well, at least it's an example of what NOT to do.


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## Buka (Jun 18, 2012)

It's why you don't talk a lot when you roll, especially during submissions.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 18, 2012)

MA-Caver said:


> I'm not sure what exactly went wrong here but the instructor definitely wasn't paying attention to EVERYTHING that was happening.
> 
> [yt]cwbnESDByLA[/yt]
> 
> ...



This is Angel Perez, with his younger brother Jimmy. Angel posts here (and on MAP - after being banned from Judoforum) as "Champ Pain" (formerly "Judo Champion"), although he's been quiet for a while now. And yes, it has been posted before (well, the original has, not this edit of it), by Angel himself, seemingly to brag about it (again, both here and on MAP). http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?96450-Sensei-almost-dies

Such a fun thread that was....


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## Manny (Jun 19, 2012)

Now I realize why in some judo dojos chokes are not taught or at least not wihtout supervision. I don't wana star a flame here but it was a little irresponsable to perform that choke that way, the man could be killed.

I am not a judo man, but transpolate this for example to a TKD I think this thing could hapen for example if doin g full sparring a good roundhouse kick delivered with power to the head of our classmate can cause a bad KO and the results can be catastrofic, so the techs must be performed wiht safety using the safety headgear and controling the kicks to the head.

Just my two mexican cents.

Manny


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## Steve (Jun 19, 2012)

While I don't know the specifics of this situation, this sort of thing does happen even with very knowledgeable, responsible instructors.

I posted the video below in another thread a few days ago (although it's been floating around for a while).






Honestly, I think this is a situation that should be avoided, but it's not THAT big a deal.  It's a carotid choke, and the danger is minimal.  I've seen far too many people take naps to get overly worked up about this.


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## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2012)

What Steve says is true, it's what is called a 'blood' choke where the blood is stopped momentarily as he says from the carotid artery, it's the same as fainting. Seen it quite a few times, no harm done. Door supervisors ( bouncers) call it 'necking' someone when they do it to calm a situation down (?) lol.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2012)

In the link by MA-Caver, you can see at about 1:12, his brother's arm drop. Nappy time.

Never had this technique done on me, and don't particularly want it done. We train that as soon as we see an arm desend over our face, to lower our chin and begin a defensive move. NOW! 

One of the more effective defenses uses the pressure points between the thumb and index finger of the opponent, as well as the pressure point at the upper end of the ulna. Those are used to remove the arm as you step back and under, and put the opponent in a hammer/wrist lock.

If that doesn't work, one should immediately try a knee-cap kick. This has the advantage if applied correctly, and in time, of causing sufficient pain to cause the opponent to release the choke. Or if not, then raising one leg will usually cause you to begin falling to one side, spreading the impact, as you fall down and begin dreaming.  :uhyeah:


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## Steve (Jun 19, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the link by MA-Caver, you can see at about 1:12, his brother's arm drop. Nappy time.
> 
> Never had this technique done on me, and don't particularly want it done. We train that as soon as we see an arm desend over our face, to lower our chin and begin a defensive move. NOW!
> 
> ...



I dont see any of that working.  Tucking the chin is a good idea, but there are plenty of ways to fix that.  Unless you have the neck of a bull, if I'm on your back I'm probably going to get a choke.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2012)

Steve said:


> I dont see any of that working. Tucking the chin is a good idea, but there are plenty of ways to fix that. Unless you have the neck of a bull, if I'm on your back I'm probably going to get a choke.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2



That is certainly possible.  If you have me down and are behind, I am at a disadvantage.  Even if I am on my feet and more manuverable, I must act quickly and correctly with the pressure points.

However, if your hand and arm are on fire, you are more pliable than you might imagine.


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## Steve (Jun 19, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is certainly possible.  If you have me down and are behind, I am at a disadvantage.  Even if I am on my feet and more manuverable, I must act quickly and correctly with the pressure points.
> 
> However, if your hand and arm are on fire, you are more pliable than you might imagine.


Okay.  So, if you have a blow torch and you're talking about actual fire, I'll cede the point.  

But, if you're talking about using pressure points on my hand or arm, I am very confident that there is no place you can jab, poke, pry or bend anything on my arm that hasn't been tried literally thousands of times by hundreds of different people.  

In the interest of avoiding a completely theoretical, what if discussion, I will try to be very explicit.  If you have a competent grappler on your back, you are in deep doodoo.  And if you're standing and you have a competent grappler to your side or back who is controlling your collar, arm or leg, you are also in deep doodoo and are very likely going to be on the ground pretty soon.


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## elder999 (Jun 19, 2012)

Steve said:


> In the interest of avoiding a completely theoretical, what if discussion, I will try to be very explicit. If you have a competent grappler on your back, you are in deep doodoo. And if you're standing and you have a competent grappler to your side or back who is controlling your collar, arm or leg, you are also in deep doodoo and are very likely going to be on the ground pretty soon.


I'd say maybe even a _halfway_ competent grappler, depending on your overall level of competence and mindset...:lol:


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 19, 2012)

Steve said:


> Okay.  So, if you have a blow torch and you're talking about actual fire, I'll cede the point.
> 
> But, if you're talking about using pressure points on my hand or arm, I am very confident that there is no place you can jab, poke, pry or bend anything on my arm that hasn't been tried literally thousands of times by hundreds of different people.
> 
> In the interest of avoiding a completely theoretical, what if discussion, I will try to be very explicit.  If you have a competent grappler on your back, you are in deep doodoo.  And if you're standing and you have a competent grappler to your side or back who is controlling your collar, arm or leg, you are also in deep doodoo and are very likely going to be on the ground pretty soon.



Different people react to pressure point application differently for sure.  But the majority of people will be effected by pressure point application.  If you are not one of those, so be it.  Most are not immune.  Against those, if I use my technique correctly, I have a couple or three seconds to defend myself.  Beyond that, as I said before, no I'm not going to do anything but go to sleep.


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2012)

Problem with the video in the OP is that it's not grappling it's a demo so the guy playing uke isn't resisting. Best defence? Not letting your opponent get it on in the first place, it's one of the very few moves that I as a weaker female can confidently put on a strong man and know that it will work well.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 20, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Problem with the video in the OP is that it's not grappling it's a demo so the guy playing uke isn't resisting. *Best defence? Not letting your opponent get it on in the first place*, it's one of the very few moves that I as a weaker female can confidently put on a strong man and know that it will work well.



No arguing the bolded part..  That is always best.  When for some reason one hasn't been able to prevent that, one should hope for some other possible defense.  Or just give up?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 20, 2012)

Sure. But I gotta tell you, Steve's right about not relying on pressure points and pain compliance in a real situation. The effects of adrenaline are quite a major factor, and really do remove the pain of such tactics in reality. The way they feel in training, in the dojo, and in mucking around with friends is very different to the way they feel in an actual high adrenaline situation.


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Sure. But I gotta tell you, Steve's right about not relying on pressure points and pain compliance in a real situation. The effects of adrenaline are quite a major factor, and really do remove the pain of such tactics in reality. The way they feel in training, in the dojo, and in mucking around with friends is very different to the way they feel in an actual high adrenaline situation.




You see that in MMA fights, the chokes (and other techniques such as arm bars etc) come on a lot quicker in a fight too, whether you mean to or not in training people tend to put them on slower.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 20, 2012)

Not exactly what I meant.... I was referring more the specific effects of adrenaline, and how it changes based on different situations/environments. For example, even in an MMA-style bout, there isn't the real fear for your life (well, there shouldn't be!), as you've had time to mentally prepare yourself for it, which has a profound effect on the type of adrenaline surge you feel, and exactly what it's effects are. 

Tell you what, here's a story from Ellis Amdur, about taking a good, solid look at pressure points in a more realistic situation:



			
				Ellis Amdur said:
			
		

> I honestly don't recall the story you mean. I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka. A very sturdy man - five feet, eight inches, and one hundred eighty pounds - all muscle. We were drinking a few beers at his house, and I decided to f** with him (he was my friend, after all) and try something out at the same time. (Actually, we'd had quite a few beers.) I turned to him and said, "You know, thanks to my studies in koryu, judo appears to me to be mere kid's stuff, easily defeated."
> Y - "You shouldn't kid around like that, Ellis."
> E - "No, I mean it. I'm now completely invulnerable to being choked out."
> Y - "You may think that's funny, but you shouldn't say things like that! Some people could take it seriously and get pissed off."
> ...




(Originally posted at e-budo: ​http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24710)

Training and reality are very different... and MMA, along with all other sporting forms, are closer to training than reality, when you really get down to it. Oh, and in training I do tend to slap things like chokes on pretty damn quick! I just use a lot more control there... 
​


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2012)

I understood what you meant, the bit about techniques coming on quicker was something else that happens _as well_ as what you were talking about.

Fighters think they are prepared, even experienced ones but when they actually get in and face their opponent a lot of training actually goes out of the window, it's only the professional fighters who fight for a living who can retain their complete concentration. Most fighters whatever rules they fight are actually amateurs who _are_ scared for themselves when they get in to the cage. I've seen some who either don't come out of the changing room and some who've got as far as the cage door and turned round and left! Some weigh in, say they are going for food and are never seen again, a real pain from the promoters point of view.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 20, 2012)

:rules:

Note to self:  Do not go into a Jujutsu/Judo thread and imply there might be a defense to a Jujutsu/Jodo technique.

 Less controversial to claim a belief in Christianity.   :uhyeah:


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## Chris Parker (Jun 20, 2012)

Ha, we're not saying there isn't any way to defend against a choke, just that the method you described have been found to be lacking in most of our experience. Your first point (tucking in your chin), as well as the idea of moving before the choke is on, is spot on. There are other things, but they're probably the key.


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## Steve (Jun 20, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> :rules:
> 
> Note to self:  Do not go into a Jujutsu/Judo thread and imply there might be a defense to a Jujutsu/Jodo technique.
> 
> Less controversial to claim a belief in Christianity.   :uhyeah:


Not quite true.  There are many defenses to this choke.  Your suggestions just aren't ones I think would work.  Tucking the chin is good, and avoiding the choke altogether is also good (when practical).

Point is, if someone's attempting to catch you with a bow and arrow choke, that someone is going to be at least somewhat trained in grappling.  This isn't the type of technique that a casual UFC fan is going to be familiar with.  And that someone, with at least some amount of formal training, will very likely know how to deal with defenses that include pain compliance.


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2012)

There are defences to just about everything, for me though I find it hard to explain on here I'm better at showing so I leave it to those who can explain properly.


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## Buka (Jun 20, 2012)

While it in no way applies to general self defense - I do not believe there's a realistic way to defend against a good choke put on by experienced grappler once he gets position, by a person who doesn't have grappling skills.


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