# WTF  TKD sparring  hands down?



## dagg3r

Hi all,

I was just curious recently joined a WTF tkd club and watching everyone do sparring and also on youtube watching olympic tkd sparring matches nearly everybody has their hands down (guard down).

I asked the instructor, he says its illegal to have your guard up or to block?
I read the WTF competition rules doesnt say anything about it is illegal to block or to have your guard up, so why dont you guys spar with your hands and guard up? why dont you block the attacks?

The only thing I can think of is possibly if you block the attacks in WTF or have your guard up and you block the attacks, although you blocked it the opponent will get a point assuming your hands were not there the trajectory would have connected??? I dont know thats the only logical thing I can think of.

Hope you guys can shed some light on this, but was just curious if you can block, you might as well block attacks well before they connect ... and to have your guard up at times.

Cheers


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## terryl965

Well you instructor is wrong there is no such rule, basically they keep them down so there opponey will be tempted to go to the head and then they can counter. Alot of people believe they are faster with hands down, not me. This is one of the reason and pthers are since they do not use hands to the head, there is no reason to have them up.


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## FearlessFreep

This comes up pretty often.

It's a risk/reward thing.

(WTF) TKD sparring is done at a greater range than other combat sports that allow hand strikes to the head, so you have greater lead time to block kicks to the head.  So hands are often left low to entice the opponent to kick to the head on the feeling that you will be able to block in time if need be but mostly to set up a counter attack.

With recent rule changes designed to increase offense, I wonder if such tactics will go away.

Anyway, some (of us) who train Tae Kwon Do primarily as a self-defense martial art train to keep hands up as a defense against more 'real-world' situations as opposed to the sport scenario.


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## terryl965

FF you said that perfecrly.


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## tshadowchaser

Hands down sparring is why many people criticize the art and sport.
This sparring technique develops BAD habits if a transition is to be made into self defense or street.


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## Loomie

Where I train we are WTF and spar every Wednesday. If you are caught with your hands down, you are gonna be in big trouble. If your arms are out when you kick, not protecting your rips they will take off your belt and tie it around your arms so they can't go too far away from your ribs. My master specifically encourages people to have their hands up and moving a little. His reason being that it will take less time to block if they are moving. So it just goes to say that every dojang is a little different.


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## Deaf Smith

Cause it's a game Dagg. Olympic TKD is a game. A game with many restrictive rules forced so kicking technique takes presidence.

It has nothing to do with self defense or any realistic martial use.

Deaf


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## dagg3r

Thanks guys for the clarification, just also wondering if you were to block attacks such as a front kick way before it connects to the chest area the opponent wont score a point?


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## K31

Loomie said:


> Where I train we are WTF and spar every Wednesday. If you are caught with your hands down, you are gonna be in big trouble. If your arms are out when you kick, not protecting your rips they will take off your belt and tie it around your arms so they can't go too far away from your ribs. My master specifically encourages people to have their hands up and moving a little. His reason being that it will take less time to block if they are moving. So it just goes to say that every dojang is a little different.



 LOL, One of our instructors threatened to tie a students hands up with his belt if he kept dropping them during an exercise. They usually make the student hold two medicine balls if they don't heed the first warning though.


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## mango.man

This year at the Fresno Natl Qualifier, I saw a guy come out in a guarded stance with his hands up like a boxer to protect his head.  

I think the match lasted 4 seconds before he was point gapped by a barrage of round kicks.  4 to the left side of his torso and 3 to the right.

That is what the sport of TKD is about.  I find it funny how many people complain about it.  But if you wanna stand the best chance of winning under the WTF rules of competition, you gotta play the game their way.


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## terryl965

But see mango.man people are not educated enought o understand this is a game just like point sparring and other types of MMA events. It is all a game and the real S.D. princeple are still out there in the school and in the streets.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Sparring with your hands too high or too low is foolish.  Your hands should be high enough to guard your chin and to quickly react to an incoming kick. They should be held low enough so that your arms are guarding your torso and so that you can react to incoming kicks and punches.

Ali used to keep his hands down to entice opponents.  Very few boxers keep their hands down, so it was a blatant, in your face statement of 'I'm so fast that I can do this and still stop you' that was designed to psych out his opponents.  That, and he really _was_ that good.

But if everyone is doing it, then it kind of loses its effect and really entices nobody.

Daniel


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## Deaf Smith

mango.man said:


> you gotta play the game their way.


 
Whole point mango. Just playing a game.

Tell you what, you go to the street in a bad part of town. Let a few hoods come up and get in a conversation with you. Keep your hands down by your side. Since they really really want to talk to you close up, let them get close. Let them gesture with their hands. Let them distract you. And see what happens....

Deaf


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## TheOriginalName

Firstly: I'm not trained in TKD. I'm do a karate based MMA. 

I however like to try and fill my head with heaps of information - i particularly like to look at other styles and analyise the differences in the hope that i might be able to improve my own game. 

Having looked at WFT TKD i'm of the opinion that the low guard is simply and purely to protect again points being scored against the body. A front kick or a low round kick takes far less time to travel to it's destination than a high kick - thus the chances of missing the block from a hands up guard is higher. Under "realistic" conditions we might just wear such a hit and push on but in the world of points sparring you can't do this. 
Therefore the hands are low to block the easy points - with the thinking that you will be able to see a head kick coming and have more time to respond. 

In the world of sports karate many people adopt such a philosophy - and it is highly effective. 

The problem is people see this "sport" and think that this is how a the arts promote self defence........thus the problem. 

As previously mention, point sparring is a game - like tag.


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## mango.man

Deaf Smith said:


> Whole point mango. Just playing a game.
> 
> Tell you what, you go to the street in a bad part of town. Let a few hoods come up and get in a conversation with you. Keep your hands down by your side. Since they really really want to talk to you close up, let them get close. Let them gesture with their hands. Let them distract you. And see what happens....
> 
> Deaf


 
Why would I (or my daughter who is the TKDist in my family) do that deaf?  We understand it is just a game.  We are only concerned with the game aspect.  It is why we train where we train and with the people we train with.  Our goal in TKD is only on winning gold medals in competition.  It's why she does WTF sparring and why she keeps her hands down while doing it.  Because it gives her a statistical and strategic advantage over an opponent in the ring during the game that comes in protecting only her head.

If my daughter ever found herself in such a situation as you describe she has been clearly instructed on how to protect herself long enough to make an attempt to escape.  And those techniques that she has been told to use are things that would get her kicked out of EVERY dojang on the planet if she used them in training.  They include Scream, Spit, Scratch, Bite, Knees, Elbows etc but only to a point where you can run like hell.  Don't try to stick around and finish anyone off.


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## Deaf Smith

Cause you fight as you train mango. Believe me, you fight as you train out of shear habit cause you lizard brain, that is your amygdala, can only do what it knows it can do. 

Especially if you put a huge effort into training one way as you are programming your amygdala to react that way.

Deaf


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## mango.man

Having recently gone through an 18 week LA County Shreiff Explorer's Academy with much focus on self defense and survival, allow me to assure you that her instinctive fighting skills are just fine.

Not once was she seen bouncing in place with her arms to her side waiting for an opportunity to land one of her patented axe-kicks.


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## granfire

Well, I have been told that you suck if you have to keep your hands up!
 ROFLMAO, maybe I do, but I have also received a many round kicks to the noggin form my instructor, who can do so at will, any day, without breaking a sweat and you just wonder why your headgear has shifted, and that is with _light to medium contact_.

 I have also seen a pretty good Black belt getting knocked out cold. A lucky shot, but as my Husband noted "That is called a concussion!!!" and ever since Troy Aikman we know how that is not good for a person...or are our heads harder because we do MA?

Anyhow, another instructor with RL experience in using his MA, including fullcontact Tournaments and Selfdefense scenarios assured me, that hands up is the way to go.

Besides, I just turned 40, look pretty damn good still if I do say so myself, I know if I started drooling and stuff it wouldn't be so attractive...so I opt for brain protection!


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## KELLYG

In wtf, if the opponent kicks and it is blocked with with your arm and your arm makes no contact to your body then they don't score a point.  It is easier and quicker block incoming kicks if you hands are already down somewhat.  Usually the hand opposite hand from the blocking hand is punching at the attackers middle section at the same time,  so that you can push off to make room for further counters..... 

Just my take on it...


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## Deaf Smith

And guys, if your hands are down on the steet, before you can react they will punch the daylights out of you. 

See on the street they get close and hit you before they bow.

You should learn to keep your hands up, especially when talking to people you don't know in a strange part of town. It's all habit. Ingrained habit.

Deaf


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## zDom

Deaf Smith said:


> And guys, if your hands are down on the steet, before you can react they will punch the daylights out of you.
> 
> See on the street they get close and hit you before they bow.
> 
> You should learn to keep your hands up, especially when talking to people you don't know in a strange part of town. It's all habit. Ingrained habit.
> 
> Deaf



So you are saying you should stand near strangers in a boxing stance? 

Not exactly the best way to make friends 

Kidding aside,

"on the street" I make every effort to keep people at arm's length in questionable situations (spider sense tingling!!).

Now here's some irony... I don't like the way WTF rules make it so folk end up rarely guarding their head. 

But honestly, if someone is squaring up on me to attack (as opposed to just rushing in) I might just very well keep my hands low for a similar reason: to bait them into coming in at my head so I can counterkick their gut on their way in.

Also, it looks less like you are a willing participant in the fight that if you are in the "put up yer dukes!"-type stance.


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## Deaf Smith

zDom,

It's all in context.

If it's a dark night, bad part of town, you don't let stranger get inside your safety zone. Yes you do raise your hands. Palms out. You tell them in a command voice to stay back. You keep your peripheral vision open for any other strangers that might try to walk behind you. You blade your body. 

Depends on who is there, what is being said, where you are, numbers of supicious persons, etc...

Fights or attacks don't start in a vacuum. The situation, what is spoken, how it's spoken, body language and more. 

But if your mind tells you something is not right, trust it, and either leave or bring your shields up.

Deaf


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## granfire

Code:
	

[COLOR=Red][U][I][B] But if your mind tells you something is not right, trust it, and either leave or bring your shields up.[/B][/I][/U][/COLOR]




needs to be repeated!


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## slingblade01

In reference to sport TKD, no one has mentioned the number of broken arms that occur from trying to block kicks...of course, I've only seen this at the elite level.

In reference to SD, it's been my experience that staying out of the bad section of town has been far more valuable than decades of practiced blocking.

My $.02


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## mango.man

slingblade01 said:


> In reference to sport TKD, no one has mentioned the number of broken arms that occur from trying to block kicks...of course, I've only seen this at the elite level.
> 
> In reference to SD, it's been my experience that staying out of the bad section of town has been far more valuable than decades of practiced blocking.
> 
> My $.02


 
Allow me than.  My daughter has had 2 broken arms and 2 broken hands as a result of blocking.  Always on the left, a result of blocking the right foot / leg of her opponent.  I only know of 1 confirmed instance where she has broken her opponent in competition.


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## zDom

slingblade01 said:


> In reference to sport TKD, no one has mentioned the number of broken arms that occur from trying to block kicks...of course, I've only seen this at the elite level.
> 
> My $.02



I bet these are the results of passive "hold up arm and wait for kick to hit it" type blocks instead of active "strike the kicking leg with your block" type.

From what I've seen, sport TKDists know as much about blocking as they do punching.


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## granfire

mango.man said:


> Allow me than.  My daughter has had 2 broken arms and 2 broken hands as a result of blocking.  Always on the left, a result of blocking the right foot / leg of her opponent.  I only know of 1 confirmed instance where she has broken her opponent in competition.



Holy cow! How hard do you guys hit?

yet, broken arm is still better than a broken head!


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## terryl965

zDom said:


> I bet these are the results of passive "hold up arm and wait for kick to hit it" type blocks instead of active "strike the kicking leg with your block" type.
> 
> From what I've seen, sport TKDists know as much about blocking as they do punching.


 

Now now Zdom some of us use the block as a strike and we punch even though we get no points for it. We like to deliver pain as much as possible and then throw the kicks.


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## mango.man

granfire said:


> Holy cow! How hard do you guys hit?
> 
> yet, broken arm is still better than a broken head!


 

Well if you believe what you read here and on other forums, they don't hit that hard. She only plays that tappity-tap olympic sparring game. Of course if you've not been hit by some of those kicks you really don't know how hard they are hitting.


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## mango.man

terryl965 said:


> Now now Zdom some of us use the block as a strike and we punch even though we get no points for it. We like to deliver pain as much as possible and then throw the kicks.


 
Cover / Punch / Kick is a fairly common practice in olympic tkd.


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## terryl965

mango.man said:


> Well if you believe what you read here and on other forums, they don't hit that hard. She only plays that tappity-tap olympic sparring game. Of course if you've not been hit by some of those kicks you really don't know how hard they are hitting.


 
Yea I would love to see some of these people get kick by a 2600 pounds of pressure kick coming at forty mile an hours at them and stand there and take it. But if you can strike with the arm like a punch it gets alot easier.


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## terryl965

mango.man said:


> Cover / Punch / Kick is a fairly common practice in olympic tkd.


 
Yes it is or better known as MR. Freeze when done right.


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## terryl965

mango.man said:


> Why would I (or my daughter who is the TKDist in my family) do that deaf? We understand it is just a game. We are only concerned with the game aspect. It is why we train where we train and with the people we train with. Our goal in TKD is only on winning gold medals in competition. It's why she does WTF sparring and why she keeps her hands down while doing it. Because it gives her a statistical and strategic advantage over an opponent in the ring during the game that comes in protecting only her head.
> 
> If my daughter ever found herself in such a situation as you describe she has been clearly instructed on how to protect herself long enough to make an attempt to escape. And those techniques that she has been told to use are things that would get her kicked out of EVERY dojang on the planet if she used them in training. They include Scream, Spit, Scratch, Bite, Knees, Elbows etc but only to a point where you can run like hell. Don't try to stick around and finish anyone off.


 

Mango do not try and justify what you do, your doughter and you I have meet in Colorado springs last January. Your doughter is a great competitor of the sport and at this time that is what she has choosen to do. Just like some like softball or Volleyball. Let her enjoy herself and make sure she is getting some SD principle as well. Have a great day,


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## bluekey88

zDom said:


> I bet these are the results of passive "hold up arm and wait for kick to hit it" type blocks instead of active "strike the kicking leg with your block" type.
> 
> From what I've seen, sport TKDists know as much about blocking as they do punching.


 
Ar eyou kidding?  [sarcasm]Whenever I spar, I stand there like a human punching bag until my opponent tires out, then I bleed on them....[/sarcasm]

Not only do we teach blocking...but we use it too. Thing is, legs generally stronger than arms...even striking blocks.  Better to use good footwork to avoid/absorb blows...hell, it's what your best boxers do, it's the heart and soul of aikido.  In this case instead of blending and throwing, we blend/and counter-attack.  Beats the hell out of getting hit all the time.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965

Bluekey you are exactly right


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## Daniel Sullivan

mango.man said:


> Well if you believe what you read here and on other forums, they don't hit that hard. She only plays that tappity-tap olympic sparring game. Of course if you've not been hit by some of those kicks you really don't know how hard they are hitting.


Anyone who believes that sport tkd kicks aren't hard apparently hasn't participated.  

Daniel


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## zDom

terryl965 said:


> Now now Zdom some of us use the block as a strike and we punch even though we get no points for it. We like to deliver pain as much as possible and then throw the kicks.



I think of you as a traditional martial artist who also plays the WTF TKD game, not a sport TKDist.


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## zDom

bluekey88 said:


> Ar eyou kidding?  [sarcasm]Whenever I spar, I stand there like a human punching bag until my opponent tires out, then I bleed on them....[/sarcasm]
> 
> Not only do we teach blocking...but we use it too. Thing is, legs generally stronger than arms...even striking blocks.  Better to use good footwork to avoid/absorb blows...hell, it's what your best boxers do, it's the heart and soul of aikido.  In this case instead of blending and throwing, we blend/and counter-attack.  Beats the hell out of getting hit all the time.
> 
> But hey, maybe that's just me.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



I agree that using distance  avoiding or coming in close enough to take the juice out of a kick  is good.


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## zDom

zDom said:


> I bet these are the results of passive "hold up arm and wait for kick to hit it" type blocks instead of active "strike the kicking leg with your block" type.



I stand by this statement, from experience. Not saying that all WTF competitors always block this way, just that in cases in which arms are broken, chances are it was a passive block. Legs are stronger, but you are better off striking the leg than waiting for the leg to hit your arm.

And yes, moving out of range of kick or in close enough as to take the power from the kick are very often the best options.

Standing and holding up an arm waiting for the kick to strike it has got to be the worst option with the exception of catching it on the noggin.




zDom said:


> From what I've seen, sport TKDists know as much about blocking as they do punching.



This is what I've seen, but not stated well. Yea, it was inflammatory and I apologize.

If seen a lot of good use of avoiding techniques in Olympic style &#8212; which is good martial arts. I have seen very little use of punching. Both competitors and officials are to blame.

I've also seen a lot of closing the distance to rub chests together &#8212; an example of gaming the game &#8212; and sticking arms straight out at the shoulder to prevent axe kicks from rising. IMO, a bad habit to train.

I see this as effective for the game (as officiated), but bad martial arts. Both competitors and officials are to blame.


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## bluekey88

zDom said:


> If seen a lot of good use of avoiding techniques in Olympic style  which is good martial arts. I have seen very little use of punching. Both competitors and officials are to blame.
> 
> I've also seen a lot of closing the distance to rub chests together  an example of gaming the game  and sticking arms straight out at the shoulder to prevent axe kicks from rising. IMO, a bad habit to train.
> 
> I see this as effective for the game (as officiated), but bad martial arts. Both competitors and officials are to blame.


 
Again, playing devil's advocate, even though in a gneral sense this is "bad" MA...isn;t it also "good' MA?  Here's what I mean, in a siotuation, a good martial artists uses the tools available to him/her to persevere and overcome/survive.  What tools are used and how they are deploy depends ENTIRELY on the situation at hand.  If I go to an Olympic style match and just throw punches...not only do I lose...but I get the crud kicked out of me.  If I use timing and distance to set up my kicks and then use that unique clinch to keep my opponent from countering (not just with an axe kick but also a jump spinning back kick or reverse round hosue...it prevents that side motion and shuts the opponent down)...I may be playing the game, but I'm also adapting to the situation.

it si my contention that Olympic TKD guys are also good martial artists fully capable of adapting their strategy/tactics to the needs of the situation at hand.  I say this because I am a WTF stylist who can do just that.  I'm not the world's greatest fighter, but I am fully capable of controlling the power and targetting of my kicks.  I can use my hands more, I've got a clinch/ground game.  In an olypic style comp, i can't use them, but in dojang free sparring, depending on the rule set I may have to use different tools (all defense/throws...Thank you Aikido, all hands, sparring with sweeps/takedowns, grappling only).  If I can do it, and I'm no great fighter...these guys can do it too.  

A good martial artist adapts...wether it be a street fight in a dark alley or a competition bout on the Olympic stage. 

Peace,
Erik


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## zDom

I guess it depends, then, on one's defintion of "good MA/bad MA."

Being a hapkido-ist (we always look at things in relation to combat/self-defense), I define "good martial arts" as stuff that helps me come out on top in combat/self-defense and "bad martial arts" as stuff that is likely to get me hurt.

In light of this, "adapting" to a GAME as a part of daily training could foster bad habits. 

We do play games  judo, ITF/Point-style TKD-karate/Olympic style  on the side at times, but I always try to play them in a way that to me keeps a "if this were a fight" type of mindset.

For example, I am not going to "turtle up" in a judo match if I can help it as this would be a bad place to be in combat. I don't turn my back in point style karate matches to hide my target area because this would expose my kindeys and spine.

And I think someone with YOUR mindset isn't going to be that bad off, bluekey: after all, you list several type of fighting games/training methods you participate in, each working different situations.

Bringing this around full circle back to the thread topic, what I seem to be seeing in Olympic style TKD is people who are intentionally gaming the game, finding loopholes, _exploiting_ the rules just to win  all training is targeting Olympic competition.

From what I understand, this isn't what Korean GMs had in mind for this sport, and are displeased with the result. Word has it they are ready to see TKD pulled from the Olympics.

The intention was a game for martial artists who practice TKD to play to promote TKD. What we got was people gaming the game and training something that has become something else entirely.

For example, punching to the head was made against the rules to encourage kicks. What we GOT was a sport in which even punches with trembling shock *which SHOULD be getting points  aren't getting points. So competitors stop punching.

The sad thing is, we could modify the rules some more to try to get the result those who love TKD are looking for, but it will end up the same: people exploiting the rules to try to win at all costs, training for the game instead of training for quality TKD and playing the game.

(Good discussion, btw: I don't mind a good argument. Devils Advocates make for good discussions. )


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## bluekey88

zDom said:


> I guess it depends, then, on one's defintion of "good MA/bad MA."
> 
> Being a hapkido-ist (we always look at things in relation to combat/self-defense), I define "good martial arts" as stuff that helps me come out on top in combat/self-defense and "bad martial arts" as stuff that is likely to get me hurt.


 
I think we both agree on this point.  I was essnetially saying the same thing, though perhaps I was using a broader context.  Whatever gets you throughas situation is good MA in my book.  However, for that to happen one must be able to be aware that there is a situation, wise enogh/educated enough to assess the situation anmd choose the right tools for the job, and finally skilled enough to use the tools successfully.



> In light of this, "adapting" to a GAME as a part of daily training could foster bad habits.


 
No doubt.  I assume that a decent school  makes this part of th4e curriculum.  When i'm couaching our comp team kids, I advocate a low gaurd as that will lead to greater success...especially for thre higher ranked youth.  The lower ranked young'uns are better off with a middle to high gaurd.

However when I've get them in class and they  get lazy and drop their hands i call them on it. I strive NOT to let that be a habit by reinforcing the fact that they need to use the right skillsets for the right job.  I imagine other schools do the same.  



> Bringing this around full circle back to the thread topic, what I seem to be seeing in Olympic style TKD is people who are intentionally gaming the game, finding loopholes, _exploiting_ the rules just to win  all training is targeting Olympic competition.
> 
> From what I understand, this isn't what Korean GMs had in mind for this sport, and are displeased with the result. Word has it they are ready to see TKD pulled from the Olympics.
> 
> The intention was a game for martial artists who practice TKD to play to promote TKD. What we got was people gaming the game and training something that has become something else entirely.
> 
> For example, punching to the head was made against the rules to encourage kicks. What we GOT was a sport in which even punches with trembling shock *which SHOULD be getting points  aren't getting points. So competitors stop punching.
> 
> The sad thing is, we could modify the rules some more to try to get the result those who love TKD are looking for, but it will end up the same: people exploiting the rules to try to win at all costs, training for the game instead of training for quality TKD and playing the game.
> 
> (Good discussion, btw: I don't mind a good argument. Devils Advocates make for good discussions. )


 
But as you point out, most (if not all) competitve sports have this idea of gaming the game as an element.  Wrestling, boxing, judo...it's there, you mentioned some of it in your examples.  I have no problem with that as long as the playing field is level (which, unfortunately is not the case in TKD...the real problem being with our scoring system, officating and how the rules are interpreted).  However, the pursuit of the game is not inherently a bad thing IMO and does not necessarily lead to poor martial artists 9quite the opposite in my expereince).

Sparring/competition is one tiny part of an art that includes hoshinsul, breaking, poomse, and physical conditioning.  It's just that the competition piece gets the inordinate amount of attention from outsiders.

Peace,
Erik


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## Sylo

I've always questioned this practice myself. 

As an ITF practicioner, I have always been taught to keep my hands up. Seems logical right? You don't see boxers running around with no hands up do you?

I understand the logic in point karate, and how leaving your hands down.. apparently makes one faster. Since the idea behind point fighting is to hit the other one before he hits you. Being fast, is crucial to success. However because of the "motives" behind the competition. The very essence of what you learn when you study a martial art becomes flawed.

If you watch the vids on youtube. You'll see most of the competitors (at least in the big NASKA and national circuits) bouncing around with hands down. They'll throw random wild moves at each other, until one of them lands. Its like playing "tag". you don't see much blocking. Only wild punches and kicks. When they "think" they land. They jump back and raise their hands up in the air. Basically the entire idea of "combat" and defending oneself is completely non existent. If you look at it as nothing more than a "sporting event" like baseball or soccer. It makes perfect sense why they do what they do. Because in all sports, there are "shortcuts" that people take to get ahead.

If the rules of the "game" were changed so that it was more based on a "Defend yourself" scenario. You'd see people getting those hands up. The competitors in this sport however, know that most points are scored to the body and not the face. They'd rather take the risk of getting hit in the face, than in the stomach since the odds are lower.

I like continuous sparring because of this, since its more "real" to how a fight might take place. Stop point fighters are just out there to make contact as fast as possible, by any means necessary. I can safely say that there'd be plenty of bloody noses if I were to enter one of those tournaments and a bright multi colored uniform came flying at me with his hands down.


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## mango.man

Sylo said:


> If you watch the vids on youtube. You'll see most of the competitors (at least in the big NASKA and national circuits) bouncing around with hands down. They'll throw random wild moves at each other, until one of them lands. Its like playing "tag". you don't see much blocking. Only wild punches and kicks. When they "think" they land. They jump back and raise their hands up in the air. Basically the entire idea of "combat" and defending oneself is completely non existent. If you look at it as nothing more than a "sporting event" like baseball or soccer.


 
With an acronym like NASKA (North American *Sport* Karate Association), you expected something other than a "sporting event"?

Just like Olympic TKD, you watch and you expect something other than an Olympic sport?


----------



## Sylo

mango.man said:


> With an acronym like NASKA (North American *Sport* Karate Association), you expected something other than a "sporting event"?
> 
> Just like Olympic TKD, you watch and you expect something other than an Olympic sport?


 

Nope. your absolutely right. Thats exactly what I'd expect. Doesn't mean I agree with it. But I understand its purpose. Its no different than winning a gold medal in curling. They adjusted the rules so that they can levelize it. Which I also understand completely. I still don't get why the rules couldn't have been catered around the the purpose of TKD, which is to defend oneself. I guess they are, if you really think about.. But as is with human nature. Humans will always find a way to min/max. If they know they don't have to defend themselves to score a "point".. they won't. Its just a system that has been uncovered over time. For this "scenario" no hands up.. is more effective.


----------



## BrandonLucas

Sylo and I train at the same dojang, under the same instructor.  We both come from traditional ITF roots.  Both of us pretty much see the same thing on this.

The thing that I would like to add to the discussion is that I don't believe that it is more of a problem with the actual competitors themselves, but, more of a problem with the rules of the "game". 

If you are told that you are not going to score a point with a punch, no matter how much it rocks your opponent, then why throw a punch?  And if you train exclusively for the "game", then why should you train on how to punch?

I think the fault lies with the judges on how things are scored in the sport aspect.  I think that the points should be awarded for any legal solid hit, not just a tap.

Also, I have the biggest problem with the tournements that have the point sparring system in which you only have to tap the opponent first to score the point...this is different from the olympic ruleset.  I actually saw a video on youtube, and I can't remember the link or I would post it, of this blackbelt who came up with his own sparring move, called a 3 point blitz, in which he gets into a 3 point football stance, and then as the ref says "fight", he lunges from the crouched position and blitzes his opponent with the crappiest set of backfists I have ever seen.

This is what I have the problem with.  You should not be scored on points like this.  If the point is a valid hit, then yes, but not these stupid love taps.  TKD is not about who's faster at hitting the other guy first with bad moves, it's about how to protect yourself by using the power of the moves that are taught.

To me, if you spar with your hands down, you're not sparring.  You're not practicing true TKD.  You're not even practicing a legit martial art.  It should be labled as what it is: a game.  It is not WTF TKD, ITF TKD, ATA TKD, or any other branch of TKD.  It's tag.  Tag with people wearing doboks. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not making light of what the game is at all.  I don't agree with it, but then, I don't have to.  But it's certainly not any kind of martial art under the definition of the word, and I don't believe it's fair to those of us who train as hard as we do to be regarded as "gamers" simply because we happen to train in the same artform.  

And, as a side note, I know I've had this discussion with Sylo previously, but when I found out that TKD was going to be in the Olympics for the first time, I envisioned the tournement to be something out of the movie "Best of the Best".  To me, that is how the tournement should look.  I mean, watch the Judo competitions in the Olympics.  There is no difference from the way the martial art is trained traditionally and the way that the Olympic judges score the matches.

Why can't TKD be the same?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Brandon, this is the same thing that happened in fencing.  

It used to be that to score, you had to either make a successful thrust (foil and epee) or a successful thrust or cut (sabre) to a valid target area.  With the advent of electric scoring and ever more flexible blades (no real duelist would have ever used a sword with such a light, flexible blade), moves like "the flick" became popular.  The flick is where the blade is whipped and points can be scored by literally touching your opponent in the back by whipping the blade in such a way that it wraps around from the side to make a strike.  You don't even feel the touch; you only know because the scoring lights light and the buzzer sounds.  

The flick is a move that games the game.  All sorts of other athletic contortions are done to score points that would not only not hurt an opponent is a real duel, but would leave the attacker open in such a way that the opponent would easilly finish them off (in strip fencing, once a point is scored, the action stops).  Such a move, again, games the game.  There is even a mentality that if you're ahead, if you score and your opponent scores simultaneously, then that is okay.  Certainly, in a real duel, such a mentality would be considered highly foolish.  Some rules also exist that affect timing and such in order to make the sport more viewer friendly.

Just like Olympic taekwondo, I have the highest respect for the athleticism of modern fencers and am saddened that I missed being able to watch the fencing as it happened.  I am aware that Olympic fencing is a sport and I am okay with that.  I have my little peeves, which I mentioned above, but overall, I enjoy and respect modern sport fencing. 

One difference between sport fencing and sport taekwondo is that a sport fencer has all of the tools necesary to actually fight a duel.  Techniques are not restricted in weird or artificial ways (if one understands the history of the weapons, the target areas make sense).  

On the other hand, doing exclucively sport taekwondo will not provide you with all of the tools that one needs to defend themselves, though I do believe that a straight sport taekwondo player has a huge advantage in a fight over an untrained individual.

Ultimately, I believe that _both_ sports suffer due to the lure of sponsorship dollars and the attempts to gain them by making the sports friendly to a television audience that has neither the understanding nor the interest to be able to follow them, regardless of how viewer friendly it is made to be.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas

I don't think I could agree more with your post.

It's a very hard thing to not feel animosity toward the gamers for the way things have turned out.  But, after thinking about it, I've realized that it's not them, it's the politics involved that turn things sour.

I read someone's post before that if TKD was taken out of the Olympics, then the mentality would start changing.  I agree with that.  I think that if you take away the reason for the governing bodies to create absurd sparring rules, then the mentality of the gamers will change.  

But, what if the ruleset changed, and the "tapping" was no longer considered scoring?  That would leave alot of these gamers in a bad position, and it's not fair to them, because they have been training this whole time to fit the ruleset of the game thus far.  They are being put at a disadvantage because of the rules of the game.

I do agree that they would be better off than an untrained fighter, but then so would a football player.  It's all about conditioning on that level, not technique and fighting skill.  

Again, I'm not taking away anything from the people who play the points game, because I would certainly lose if I were to enter the competition.  

I guess it all comes down to what you're after in this whole thing:  are you wanting a SD martial art, or are you wanting to win trophies? 

The gripe that I have with it is that the trophie side of things is still being marketed as a "martial art", which it is not.  Art, maybe, but not martial.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

To a certain extent, I think that the system gamers are a necessity.  When rules are made to regulate competition and players game the system regularly, that is the indication that the rules need to evolve.  If nobody gamed the system, then the deficiencies in the system would never be addressed.

The problem is, as you pointed out, in the judging and scoring methods, not the gamers.  The biggest problem is that, it seems to me, organizations tend to not want to change their rules, and so they praise those who game the system as superior athletes who have 'advanced the sport' by changing the way that it is played.  

This is very different from the evolution of martial arts, which is driven by the effectiveness of techniques and evolves as practitioners of an art encounters opponents with differing styles and need to develope techniques to counter them.

Unlike sport fencing, in which a good sport fencer would also be a very good duelist, quirky scoring aside, sport taekwondo (exclusively) cannot develope an actual fighter.  And also unlike fencing, where the ability to win a sword duel is obsolete, there is still, perhaps now more than ever, a huge need for regular people to be able to defend themselves with their hands and feet.  

And that is why we in the martial arts community point out the lack of 'martial' in martial sports: fencing is no longer relevant.  Unarmed defense is still very, very relevant and needed in modern society. 

Daniel


----------



## kaizasosei

i would not think hightly of an average fighter with his hands down.  i would also scold myself for letting my guard(arms) down completly in a given situation.  
however, i have heard of extreme korean arts that use 'only feet' techniques.  that means they don't use hands at all.  
mind you, it is possible to block just about anything with the soles of feet, shins,,etc. if you are flexible and skillfull enough

j


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## Daniel Sullivan

Most arts that are feet only were developed for some artificial reason.  In other words hand techniques were either unusable or the intent was specifically to focus on the kicking techniques.

Taewondo doesn't have a background like Capoiera, where it was developed by slaves who's hands were frequently tied, nor does it have a background of taekyon (whatever taekyon's background, taekwondo's is not the same).

While a kicking only art certainly has value and legitamacy, just as learning to shoot pistols only does as well, taekwondo was not developed as a kicking only art, and in an SD application, unless you're armless, restricting some of your most valueable defense tools borders on suicide.

Daniel


----------



## Sylo

Celtic Tiger said:


> Most arts that are feet only were developed for some artificial reason. In other words hand techniques were either unusable or the intent was specifically to focus on the kicking techniques.
> 
> Taewondo doesn't have a background like Capoiera, where it was developed by slaves who's hands were frequently tied, nor does it have a background of taekyon (whatever taekyon's background, taekwondo's is not the same).
> 
> While a kicking only art certainly has value and legitamacy, just as learning to shoot pistols only does as well, taekwondo was not developed as a kicking only art, and in an SD application, unless you're armless, restricting some of your most valueable defense tools borders on suicide.
> 
> Daniel


 

makes you wonder if any ITF fighters have ever entered a WTF style tournament. From some of the vids I've seen. I'd wipe the floor with them.

round house to the head!

axe kick to the head!

backfist to the head!

spin hook kick to the head!

I can see it now!


----------



## Shaolin Bushido

I just think it's dumb.  Spawns bad habits that will get you KO'ed in a self defense situation.  

WTF= "What the F___?"   That's precisely what I read when I see WTF and Taekwondo together.   Perhaps that will change if they ever reconcile with the martial side of Tae Kwon Do.

No offense to anyone; it's just me thinkin in print.  I'm sure some of you understand what I'm trying to say.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sylo said:


> makes you wonder if any ITF fighters have ever entered a WTF style tournament. From some of the vids I've seen. I'd wipe the floor with them.
> 
> round house to the head!
> 
> axe kick to the head!
> 
> backfist to the head!
> 
> spin hook kick to the head!
> 
> I can see it now!


Hmm, I don't know.  

Our dojang trains fairly traditionally, but as a WTF school, we spar that style.  I'm disinclined to think that I could go in and mop up in another sparring style just because of my own foundations.  Anytime an athlete or martial artist goes from one set of rules into another which with they are either unfamiliar and/or unpracticed, they nearly always have a learning curve before they start mopping up.

Top USFL players who transitioned to the NFL had difficulty adapting.  A couple of years ago, an LPGA golfer competed in the PGA.  She was able to drive as good as any of the gents, but had trouble simply because the men were much more focused on their putting game; and hers wasn't exactly bad.  And this was in the same game with the same rules.

Expectations that being ITF would enable you to mop up at WTF tourney are not well founded: no punches to the head are allowed, so one of the attacks you listed would be unavailable to you.  Not only that, it is difficult to score with a fist when striking the torso where punches are allowed.  And don't you think that WTF competitors roundhouse, axe, and spinning hook kicks are probably pretty well developed?

Daniel

Edit: to address your first question, I'm sure that some ITF practitioners have transitioned to WTF and done well, but when people transition to a different style with the intent of sparring in that style, they generally train and prepare very dilligently in order to be able to do so, and generally show well but don't start really mopping up until they've been in the new style for a bit.


----------



## BrandonLucas

The sad thing is that it is basically an apples/oranges discussion at the competition point.  I could not go in and compete using WTF rules and expect to beat the top ranked WTF fighter.

By the same token, any WTF fighter that would attempt to enter into an ITF style sparring match would fair the same.

And that's the point of this, to me.  WTF style sparring should not still be considered a legit martial art.  It's a game.  Nothing more.

In ITF, we spar and have some rules and regulations, but it's much more combat-oriented than the WTF style of sparring.  The two ways of sparring are so vastly different because the WTF style is in no way, shape, form, or fashion "martial".  That is the biggest disadvantage as far as I can see.

I think that it should be seperated from traditional TKD because there are still schools out there that profess that the WTF tournement style is the actual way the martial art is practiced.  If someone were to come in off the street not knowing anything about the martial arts at all and attempt to learn this as a form of self defense, then it would not work.

I don't have a problem with anyone who goes into the tournement style of sparring with the understanding that it's nothing more than a game with a set of rules.  It's when the game is marketed as a SD art that I have a problem with it.  Football does not teach people how to competently defend themselves during a fight, and it does not claim to.  It's a game.  Same thing applies here.


----------



## mango.man

Sylo said:


> makes you wonder if any ITF fighters have ever entered a WTF style tournament. From some of the vids I've seen. I'd wipe the floor with them.
> 
> round house to the head!
> 
> axe kick to the head!
> 
> backfist to the head!
> 
> spin hook kick to the head!
> 
> I can see it now!


 
LOL.  As far as I know there is nothing that stops you from registering for any open tourney out there.  Just remember to play by the rules (IE, No backfist to the head) and don't forget to videotape and post the results on Youtube, win or lose I am sure we would all love to see it.

Definitely go with the axe kick though as that seems quite effective especially if you chamber your axe kick to "disguise" it:

Back (Left) Leg Axe Kick - 




Front (Right) Leg Skip Axe Kick -


----------



## BrandonLucas

I'm just curious here, but doesn't it bother you that if either one of the people getting kicked in the head had bothered to even attempt to block, the point wouldn't have scored?  Or, at the very least, a possible concussion could have been avoided?

I understand that it's supposed to make you faster, but I really don't see the application of speed in those videos.

Those kicks were sharp, though.


----------



## Sylo

mango.man said:


> LOL. As far as I know there is nothing that stops you from registering for any open tourney out there. Just remember to play by the rules (IE, No backfist to the head) and don't forget to videotape and post the results on Youtube, win or lose I am sure we would all love to see it.
> 
> Definitely go with the axe kick though as that seems quite effective especially if you chamber your axe kick to "disguise" it:
> 
> Back (Left) Leg Axe Kick -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front (Right) Leg Skip Axe Kick -


 
I probably could enter. But, at the same time... as brandon pointed out. I'd have to follow the "tag" rules. I don't spar like that. Does WTF even allow hands to the head? I can't do a "axe kick" and hope it lands.. so we can "stop" and try again. I like to run combos and outsmart my opponent by being more skilled at it than they are. All this tappity tap style of sparring does is makes you better at whack a mole.


----------



## mango.man

Sylo said:


> I probably could enter. But, at the same time... as brandon pointed out. I'd have to follow the "tag" rules. I don't spar like that. Does WTF even allow hands to the head? I can't do a "axe kick" and hope it lands.. so we can "stop" and try again. I like to run combos and outsmart my opponent by being more skilled at it than they are. All this tappity tap style of sparring does is makes you better at whack a mole.



WTF does not allow hands to the head, so you would have to remove that tool from your arsenal.

However, WTF (more specifically Olympic style) sparring is continuous, not point / stop.  So if you miss with your axe kick, be prepared to have a follow up kick.

Feel free also to run all the combos you can.  Remember that the first person to 12 or to establish a 7 point gap, is the winner so if you can bust out a few combos and rack up points fast, all the better for you.

Also feel free to not play tappity tap and hit your opponent as hard and fast as you can.

So if the "no hands to the head" rule is all that is stopping you, I think you should reconsider and give it a go at a tourney or 2.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sylo said:


> I probably could enter. But, at the same time... as brandon pointed out. I'd have to follow the "tag" rules. I don't spar like that. Does WTF even allow hands to the head? I can't do a "axe kick" and hope it lands.. so we can "stop" and try again. I like to run combos and outsmart my opponent by being more skilled at it than they are. All this tappity tap style of sparring does is makes you better at whack a mole.


Actually, according to the rules, each blow is supposed to deliver a 'trembling shock,' while light tapping blows are not supposed to be counted.  I spar regularly and block kicks regularly and I can tell you, with serious competitors, those aint no taps.  In fact, GM Kim won't count points that are just taps, though I'm sure that there are judges who do.  Good WTF competitors also run combos and use strategy to outsmart their opponents.  

While WTF sparring has its flaws, being tappity tap is not one of them.  Some of those kicks may not look like that much more than a tap, but considering that the competitors are wearing hogu and train to take hits, I'd guarantee that they aren't just taps.  

Daniel


----------



## mango.man

BrandonLucas said:


> I'm just curious here, but doesn't it bother you that if either one of the people getting kicked in the head had bothered to even attempt to block, the point wouldn't have scored?  Or, at the very least, a possible concussion could have been avoided?



First off, an "attempt to block" will not absolutely prevent a score.  A successful block might have.  

Second, if they are just playing "tappity-tap" how is there any real possibility of concussion?



BrandonLucas said:


> I understand that it's supposed to make you faster, but I really don't see the application of speed in those videos.



As for application of speed, granted these were not the fastest kicks in the world, but when I slowed the actual video and watched it frame by frame, from first motion to contact for both kicks was 12 frames.  At 30 frames per second that is about .4 seconds.  That is not too bad.  She does it at home against BOB at 8 frames or just a fraction over a quarter second from first motion to contact.

She is working hard to make up that .15 seconds in competition.



BrandonLucas said:


> Those kicks were sharp, though.



I will pass that onto her as she appreciates those type of comments.


----------



## zDom

Celtic Tiger said:


> Actually, according to the rules, each blow is supposed to deliver a 'trembling shock,' while light tapping blows are not supposed to be counted.



That's ONE of my gripes: is that it is no secret that "trembling shock" is SUPPOSED to be the criterion, but in actuality judges

a) often give points for "roundhouse" kicks that DON'T have trembling shock

and

b) WON'T give points for front kicks, side kicks, and punches that DO have trembling shock.

:angry:


----------



## zDom

mango.man said:


> Definitely go with the axe kick though as that seems quite effective especially if you chamber your axe kick to "disguise" it:
> 
> Back (Left) Leg Axe Kick -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Front (Right) Leg Skip Axe Kick -



And here is ANOTHER of my major gripes.

Look at the *direction of motion* on these two examples.

The FIRST comes upward and inward. That makes it a FRONT or STOMP kick, not an axe kick.

The SECOND comes in laterally against the SIDE of the head. That makes it a CRESCENT KICK.

An axe kicks comes FROM ABOVE, with a downward direction of motion to the target.

Learn the art, learn the correct name for kicks, realize that there more kicks out there than "axe kick" and "roundhouse kick" and that they all have specific directions of motion.

Sure, terminology varies from school to school, but they should at least differentiate between a kick that comes straight in, from the side or from above instead of lumping them all together under one name when the mechanics are significantly different.


----------



## mango.man

zDom said:


> And here is ANOTHER of my major gripes.
> 
> Look at the *direction of motion* on these two examples.
> 
> The FIRST comes upward and inward. That makes it a FRONT or STOMP kick, not an axe kick.
> 
> The SECOND comes in laterally against the SIDE of the head. That makes it a CRESCENT KICK.
> 
> An axe kicks comes FROM ABOVE, with a downward direction of motion to the target.
> 
> Learn the art, learn the correct name for kicks, realize that there more kicks out there than "axe kick" and "roundhouse kick" and that they all have specific directions of motion.
> 
> Sure, terminology varies from school to school, but they should at least differentiate between a kick that comes straight in, from the side or from above instead of lumping them all together under one name when the mechanics are significantly different.



I disagree.  Both kicks are straight up and strike on the downward motion, which to me indicates an Axe Kick.  A crescent kick is that which is seen in the clip in my sig which clearly comes up and around laterally into the head.  I think the fact that she is at least partially chambering the kick is what is causing you the confusion as most people would classify an axe kick as purely a straight legged kick.  As you can see from her opponents (both of them) immediate reactions to the kicks, by chambering on the way up it gives the perception that it will be a front kick and they both move their hands to the front of the chest level as if to attempt to block a front kick but in actuality, being an axe kick they are not prepared for the strike on the downward motion that actually occurs.  That was the point of my initial comment when I posted the links where I said "be sure to chamber when doing your axe kick to disguise it" or words to that effect.

I did not post these as perfect examples of an axe kick.  Just to show that such a kick is often very effective in a WTF match since Sylo indicated that he would use such tools if he were to fight in a WTF tourney.

For a better angle on the second kick check out http://www.mookas.us/media_view.asp?news_no=1388 although you will have to wait for the video to download at 6:44 you will see the same kick but from a better angle and you should see that it clearly is not a crescent kick.

In the same video at 5:53 and 6:04 Red does what I would refer to as crescent kicks.


----------



## Sylo

mango.man said:


> First off, an "attempt to block" will not absolutely prevent a score. A successful block might have.
> 
> Second, if they are just playing "tappity-tap" how is there any real possibility of concussion?
> 
> 
> 
> As for application of speed, granted these were not the fastest kicks in the world, but when I slowed the actual video and watched it frame by frame, from first motion to contact for both kicks was 12 frames. At 30 frames per second that is about .4 seconds. That is not too bad. She does it at home against BOB at 8 frames or just a fraction over a quarter second from first motion to contact.
> 
> She is working hard to make up that .15 seconds in competition.
> 
> 
> 
> I will pass that onto her as she appreciates those type of comments.


 

Ok. I was at work when you posted those videos.. so I didn't get to watch them. Now that I have had a chance to watch them. Here are my thoughts. 

1. I appreciate the fact that ypu are taking up for your daughter. If my son was doing the same thing. I'd be defending him too. Its parental nature to do so. I think its great she has taken an interest in the martial arts, even if it is only in sport. At least she's not contributing to the ever popular majority rules sport trends of "football/basketball" that runs todays school systems.

2. You proved our point. Especially by slowing the videos down. Your daughter has awesome kicks. Like already said, I don't really call those "axe kicks". Axe kicks, go up.. and then down. Secondly, her opponent now that you mention it.. reminds me of BOB, seeing as how she's standing there with her hands down by her sides. No wonder she got smacked. Even if she KNEW how to defend against that kick. had her hands been up, she would have already won half the battle. Instead she would have had to use wasted movement to get the hand up to block.. which we all saw she failed to do. Your daughter has good high kicks, but her opponent might as well have just stood there. 

3. If, the opponent had been trained to fight with her hands up. A simple block, and reverse punch to the face would have put an end to this fight. Unfortunately, the rules don't allow hands to the head. ITF doesn't allow punches to the face (not that I know of) but at least they do allow some hand techniques to the face so that this strategy would have still worked. I would have used the block to throw her off balance, and i would have countered with a punch. Simple. effective. Seeing as how her hands aren't up either, she wouldn't be able to defend against it.








see what happens when you drop your hands?

but in the competitions like your daughter competes in. There's never any danger of getting hit like that.. so why put up your dukes? and that is exactly why they don't. They don't have to

sadly, as hard as I looked I could not find many WTF or ITF fights where anyone had their hands up. Am I missing something? I thought this only applied to WTF and ATA, but I saw an awful lot of ITF guys (thats how the video was labeled) doing the same thing. I watched a few ITF world championship vids, and almost noone had their hands up. What happened? My school teaches us adimantly to put our hands up.. am I missing something?


----------



## mango.man

Sylo said:


> but in the competitions like your daughter competes in. There's never any danger of getting hit like that.. so why put up your dukes? and that is exactly why they don't. They don't have to



It is not that they don't have to, and that is not why they don't.  They don't because if they did, they would lose on points.  

Trust me, you are not the first ITF person to say that they could win in WTF competition, nor will you be the last.  Problem is that many of those who have tried go in with their hands up by their head, and take 7 rapid fire round kicks to the hogu and lose 7-0 in about 4 seconds.

I have seen it happen.  This is why I suggested you give a WTF tourney a shot.  Then you would see that it would not be as easy as it looks to get in there and score your points or KO the other person.

And if my daughter were ever in a fight where her opponent has been taught to keep her hands up at all costs, than she probably wouldn't waste her energy doing any axe kicks.  Like I said, 7 "bullet" roundhouses would end the fight with little or no effort on her part.


----------



## Sylo

mango.man said:


> It is not that they don't have to, and that is not why they don't.  They don't because if they did, they would lose on points.
> 
> Trust me, you are not the first ITF person to say that they could win in WTF competition, nor will you be the last.  Problem is that many of those who have tried go in with their hands up by their head, and take 7 rapid fire round kicks to the hogu and lose 7-0 in about 4 seconds.
> 
> I have seen it happen.  This is why I suggested you give a WTF tourney a shot.  Then you would see that it would not be as easy as it looks to get in there and score your points or KO the other person.
> 
> And if my daughter were ever in a fight where her opponent has been taught to keep her hands up at all costs, than she probably wouldn't waste her energy doing any axe kicks.  Like I said, 7 "bullet" roundhouses would end the fight with little or no effort on her part.



I think we are still missing the idea here. I have no interest in competing in a tournament with those rules. It goes against everything I was taught by my instructor and it goes against everything I think TKD is supposed to be for. 1 well time reverse punch or packfist to the nose and those roundhouse kicks will be stopped in there tracks. Anyone dumb enough to let someone chase them around the ring with the same move over and over, needs to go back and train some more. Your daughter is very good at sport karate. Unless we are misunderstanding each other, your still trying to defend the fact that'd she win an actual fight with what she does. Thats where our problem is with it. 

In order for me to beat anyone at those tourneys. I'd have to conform to pretty much only kicks. And I'd also have to learn all the sport karate "blitzes" and "fake outs" that they do. If she can hit someone with 7 consecutive roundhouse kicks.. mad props to her. I don't think I'd ever allow anyone to do that to me, but hey.. what do I know?

None of the tournaments I have ever competed in fought like that. Does she train traditional on top of the sport? I really do understand the "Sport" facet of it. I really do. I realize she probably enjoys winning trophies.. heck I wouldn't mind that either. But I also like learning the martial arts, and not a commercialized watered down version of it just for the sake of winning a few plastic medals. Its the same reason ATA gets the bad rap it does. 

I might try going to the battle of atlanta this year.. and I'll put my knowledge to the test.


----------



## bluekey88

mango.man said:


> It is not that they don't have to, and that is not why they don't. They don't because if they did, they would lose on points.
> 
> Trust me, you are not the first ITF person to say that they could win in WTF competition, nor will you be the last. Problem is that many of those who have tried go in with their hands up by their head, and take 7 rapid fire round kicks to the hogu and lose 7-0 in about 4 seconds.
> 
> I have seen it happen. This is why I suggested you give a WTF tourney a shot. Then you would see that it would not be as easy as it looks to get in there and score your points or KO the other person.
> 
> And if my daughter were ever in a fight where her opponent has been taught to keep her hands up at all costs, than she probably wouldn't waste her energy doing any axe kicks. Like I said, 7 "bullet" roundhouses would end the fight with little or no effort on her part.


 
To beat a dead horse and to clarify what MM is saying....when you keep youtr hands up in a conventional boxing style gaurd, it is very easy to throw kick up under the elbows.  They're fats, they hit hard and are hard to block as the rules prohibit dropping the elbows on the legs or blocking with the shins (liek in Muay thai).  Keepign your hand sup simply gives too many scoring opportunities.  

It is better in this situation to keep a lower gaurd and rely on footwork and head movement to prevent head shots.  As I bveleive has been pointed out, in other situation, one does something different.  the right tool for the right job.  TKD has ALL the tools (regardless of association affiliation), it's up to individuals to train hard.  Your top level people should be able to be competiive in various competion settings (with different rule sets) as well as be able to adequately defend themselves.  I, for one, think that's the case for a lot of TKDists...maybe not all, but that's just the way of things...most will be somewhere on teh bell curve with few residing in the tails.  Same in Karate, wrestling, street fu, etc...

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Sylo

bluekey88 said:


> To beat a dead horse and to clarify what MM is saying....when you keep youtr hands up in a conventional boxing style gaurd, it is very easy to throw kick up under the elbows.  They're fats, they hit hard and are hard to block as the rules prohibit dropping the elbows on the legs or blocking with the shins (liek in Muay thai).  Keepign your hand sup simply gives too many scoring opportunities.
> 
> It is better in this situation to keep a lower gaurd and rely on footwork and head movement to prevent head shots.  As I bveleive has been pointed out, in other situation, one does something different.  the right tool for the right job.  TKD has ALL the tools (regardless of association affiliation), it's up to individuals to train hard.  Your top level people should be able to be competiive in various competion settings (with different rule sets) as well as be able to adequately defend themselves.  I, for one, think that's the case for a lot of TKDists...maybe not all, but that's just the way of things...most will be somewhere on teh bell curve with few residing in the tails.  Same in Karate, wrestling, street fu, etc...
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



Right. this is 100% correct. The problem is.. these schools are only giving them a hammer, when one day they may need the nails too.

they teach them ONLY what they need to win tournaments. Thats not martial arts, its tennis practice.

If they have a traditional martial arts background, and are being taught everything and not just 3 kicks, and how to dodge everyone elses..

then you might be on to something.


----------



## bluekey88

Who's saying they"re only given a hammer?  I'm at a WTF affiliated school and I'm pretty sure I've got a full set of ratchet screwdrivers, bolt cutters and a decent block plane in there as well.  

Just because you only see the tools necesary to use in a particualr competition does not mean that what happens in the school outside of comepetition is limited to that.

Maybe my section of the county is unusual, but all the TKD schools I've been to...even the ones more competition focused than mine, teach a full curriculum including all aspects of striking (hands and feet0 sparring, self defense, etc.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Sylo

bluekey88 said:


> Who's saying they"re only given a hammer?  I'm at a WTF affiliated school and I'm pretty sure I've got a full set of ratchet screwdrivers, bolt cutters and a decent block plane in there as well.
> 
> Just because you only see the tools necesary to use in a particualr competition does not mean that what happens in the school outside of comepetition is limited to that.
> 
> Maybe my section of the county is unusual, but all the TKD schools I've been to...even the ones more competition focused than mine, teach a full curriculum including all aspects of striking (hands and feet0 sparring, self defense, etc.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik




Once again. Your right. I totally agree. I actually went to a tourney one time, and sparred a guy. He was really fast, had really nice kicks, and a mean jumping back fist. I beat him, but it was a really good fight. Some said the most entertaining to watch of the tournament, because of how fast we both were. 

After the match, I asked him what style TKD he practiced, and he said WTF. He had his hands up for the most part, and I beat him mainly because I saw him do his signature jumping backfist on the 3 guys he beat before me. He was beating everyone with that, so I already knew what to expect. I gave him props, because he was really good. 

I think location is part of it as well. But the main gripe is that the olympics in particular has painted a picture to the general public that all forms of TKD are like that, when even not all WTF is like that.

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about, and this is not just in TKD either..






these people are supposed to the best in the "world?"


----------



## mango.man

Sylo said:


> Unless we are misunderstanding each other, your still trying to defend the fact that'd she win an actual fight with what she does. Thats where our problem is with it.



That is exactly where you are misunderstanding me.  

I have never stated or defended the fact that she could or would win a street fight with what she does.  

Quite the contrary in fact, in that I have made it very clear that she knows that when it comes to a street fight that there is no room for bouncing and axe kicking.  Kick the guy in the balls and run the opposite direction is tip #1 for a street fight.  If they grab hold of you or get you on the ground, bite, spit, gouge eyes, scream, crack them over the head with a nearby rock or anything else you can grab, what ever it takes to break free and then run in the opposite direction.  All techniques that would likely get her thrown out of just about any dojang on the planet, but still the best techniques to use in a real fight situation.


----------



## mango.man

Sylo said:


> I think location is part of it as well. But the main gripe is that the olympics in particular has painted a picture to the general public that all forms of TKD are like that, when even not all WTF is like that.
> 
> This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about, and this is not just in TKD either..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these people are supposed to the best in the "world?"



99.999% of the world have never seen any form of TKD, be it in the olympics or anywhere else.  OK, maybe not 99.999% but a very huge majority.  So I would not be too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

As for the video, I have lost count of how many tourneys we have been to that billed the event as "The World Championships".  Most recently back in Jan or Feb of this year.  We were at this crappy little event, just looking to get some ring time to try out some new things.  As soon as my daughter put the beat down on some girl, another master approached me with his business card and a flyer for his tournament The 2008 World TKD Championships and begging us to attend.  I was like mmmm probably not but thanks and his response was "But this is THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!"  Of course it was held in a Jr High School Gymnasium, which is where I expect all World Championships to be held.  We did not go.

As far as I am concerned there are 2 World Championship events in TKD.  On even number years there is the WTF Jr World Championships and on odd number years there is the WTF World Championships.  Each of these events allow attendance only by the National Governing Bodies National Team of each participating country.  There is no such thing as an "Open World Championship" event such as that in the video you posted, clearly titled "Sparring 2006 US *Open* Karate *World Championships* Tournament".  That title is completely contradictory.



Sylo said:


> None of the tournaments I have ever competed in fought like that. Does she train traditional on top of the sport? I really do understand the "Sport" facet of it. I really do. I realize she probably enjoys winning trophies.. heck I wouldn't mind that either. But I also like learning the martial arts, and not a commercialized watered down version of it just for the sake of winning a few plastic medals.



At this time, and for the past couple of years, no, she does not train in "traditional".  It is purely sport.  As far as her feelings on winning trophies and medals, we have lost or just not picked up more trophies and medals than we have kept over the years so it certainly is not about hardware for her.  The vast majority of those that I do know where they are, are tossed in a box in the den.  She is in it because she hopes to represent the USA on the world stage someday.  Be that in the WTF World Championships or the Olympics.  She is not in it to earn another medal to leave at the awards table or toss in a box.


----------



## bluekey88

Sylo said:


> Once again. Your right. I totally agree. I actually went to a tourney one time, and sparred a guy. He was really fast, had really nice kicks, and a mean jumping back fist. I beat him, but it was a really good fight. Some said the most entertaining to watch of the tournament, because of how fast we both were.
> 
> After the match, I asked him what style TKD he practiced, and he said WTF. He had his hands up for the most part, and I beat him mainly because I saw him do his signature jumping backfist on the 3 guys he beat before me. He was beating everyone with that, so I already knew what to expect. I gave him props, because he was really good.
> 
> I think location is part of it as well. But the main gripe is that the olympics in particular has painted a picture to the general public that all forms of TKD are like that, when even not all WTF is like that.
> 
> This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about, and this is not just in TKD either..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these people are supposed to the best in the "world?"


 
The Olympics is supposed to bea bout bringing th ebest a country has to offer.  There is some debate about wetehr or not we did taht this year (politics and all)...but, 3 of our 4 comnpetitors medaled.  As for the clip you posted...that wasn't Olympic style sparring.  If it was a TKD tourney...it might've been an AAU tourney wich has sections for point stop as well as olympic style sparring.  Those are two different beasts due to their rule sets and require different startegies to be successful.

It doesn't change the fact that competition is but a part of the whole.  TKD doesn't do "self-defense" sparring tourneys.  I'm not even sure such a thing exists (although the RBSD guys might do something like that).  However, if it's any kind of competition, sooner or later rules and such will have people gaming the game and exploiting loopholes to find advantages.

That, my friend is human nature and has nothing to do with style or art.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Sylo

bluekey88 said:


> The Olympics is supposed to bea bout bringing th ebest a country has to offer.  There is some debate about wetehr or not we did taht this year (politics and all)...but, 3 of our 4 comnpetitors medaled.  As for the clip you posted...that wasn't Olympic style sparring.  If it was a TKD tourney...it might've been an AAU tourney wich has sections for point stop as well as olympic style sparring.  Those are two different beasts due to their rule sets and require different startegies to be successful.
> 
> It doesn't change the fact that competition is but a part of the whole.  TKD doesn't do "self-defense" sparring tourneys.  I'm not even sure such a thing exists (although the RBSD guys might do something like that).  However, if it's any kind of competition, sooner or later rules and such will have people gaming the game and exploiting loopholes to find advantages.
> 
> That, my friend is human nature and has nothing to do with style or art.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik




Your both right.

What I posted was the US OPEN Karate championships help in Orlando Florida. ESPN covers it, and I believe its sanctioned by NASKA. 

I was just saying, that whatever the nonsense they were doing in the video to me is "worse" than Olympic style sparring. Alot of the competitors looked cocky and had attitudes.. with all the hand raising and such. I would like to "compete" but its looking like the AAU is the closest thing to what I am looking for. I'm not training sport karate for it though. I'll go in using what I get from class, and will either win or lose. 

No big deal.

Mad Props to your daughter for wanting to go that far with it. I wish I had of when I was that age... alas its too late now.


----------



## BrandonLucas

mango.man said:


> 99.999% of the world have never seen any form of TKD, be it in the olympics or anywhere else. OK, maybe not 99.999% but a very huge majority. So I would not be too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.
> 
> As for the video, I have lost count of how many tourneys we have been to that billed the event as "The World Championships". Most recently back in Jan or Feb of this year. We were at this crappy little event, just looking to get some ring time to try out some new things. As soon as my daughter put the beat down on some girl, another master approached me with his business card and a flyer for his tournament The 2008 World TKD Championships and begging us to attend. I was like mmmm probably not but thanks and his response was "But this is THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!" Of course it was held in a Jr High School Gymnasium, which is where I expect all World Championships to be held. We did not go.
> 
> As far as I am concerned there are 2 World Championship events in TKD. On even number years there is the WTF Jr World Championships and on odd number years there is the WTF World Championships. Each of these events allow attendance only by the National Governing Bodies National Team of each participating country. There is no such thing as an "Open World Championship" event such as that in the video you posted, clearly titled "Sparring 2006 US *Open* Karate *World Championships* Tournament". That title is completely contradictory.
> 
> 
> 
> At this time, and for the past couple of years, no, she does not train in "traditional". It is purely sport. As far as her feelings on winning trophies and medals, we have lost or just not picked up more trophies and medals than we have kept over the years so it certainly is not about hardware for her. The vast majority of those that I do know where they are, are tossed in a box in the den. She is in it because she hopes to represent the USA on the world stage someday. Be that in the WTF World Championships or the Olympics. She is not in it to earn another medal to leave at the awards table or toss in a box.


 

Ok, this is what concerns me:

You say that you are not too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

How do you expect the ART to grow? If people constantly see the competition side of it all, and that's all they see, what's going to happen to the MARTIAL ART side of it? 

It's going to disappear, that's what's going to happen.

What goes on in those tourney's is not TKD. I don't care what you want to call it, but it certainly is not TKD. I am going to make my gripe with it very, very clear:

Playing that tournement game, gaming the game, axe kicks that could be ambiguous crescent kicks, sparring with your hands at your side, and anything else that I probably missed that has to do with the sport side IS NOT A MARTIAL ART! IT IS NOT TKD!

I worked very, very hard to earn my black belt. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree, and that was constantly going to practice, going home and practicing, living and breathing TKD. I'm sure your daughter works just as hard for the competition side of it.

But I earned a true black belt in a martial art. I competed in a few tournements, yes, but that wasn't WHY I trained as hard as I did. That isn't the reason that anyone else at our dojang worked as hard as they did, and all the blackbelts that were there before me earned their belt in the same manner. We all practiced the MARTIAL ART, and we earned our blackbelts in the MARTIAL ART.

I do not see how these people who compete in the olympics are considered blackbelts in TKD. They may be blackbelts in competition sparring, but not in traditional TKD. 

I also do not see how these people have earned a 3rd or even a 4th degree blackbelt in the time that it took me to earn my 1st degree. Sure, they can point spar alot better than I can, but that's not all there is to TKD. 

I suck at point sparring. I'm terrible at it. I like to keep my hands up when I fight, and I also don't bounce up and down so that I can rocket 23 "roundhouse" kicks in a row. Any move that I make while I spar or fight has purpose. I was taught to have no wasted motion. I was also taught that if I'm going to throw a kicking combo, every last one of the kicks that I throw has to have devistating power behind it. 

I have been kicked by someone throwing the 23 "roundhouse" kick combo. It was not effective at all. I'm not saying that everyone spars like this in the WTF. But from what I've seen, the tournement goers that I've had experience with were terrible at attempting the MARTIAL ART side of it. Alot of the "gamers" have attempted to spar in the traditional style, where you must keep your hands up, and hands to the head are legal. They failed miserabely. And they were angry about it.

They were angry because they really thought that they were learning TKD, in the sense that they could do what they did at tourney's for SD. I want to make it clear the tourney side of it is NOT SD. But alot of times it gets marketed that way. It should be seperate from TKD. TKD was meant to me a SD MARTIAL ART. Not a "game".

End of rant. Sorry for the lengthy gripe.


----------



## mango.man

BrandonLucas said:


> Ok, this is what concerns me:
> 
> You say that you are not too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.
> 
> How do you expect the ART to grow? If people constantly see the competition side of it all, and that's all they see, what's going to happen to the MARTIAL ART side of it?
> 
> It's going to disappear, that's what's going to happen.



Again, you are giving too much credit to publicity that is non-existent for attempting to destroy your precious "art".  The sport of TKD gets little to no publicity whatsoever in the mainstream media.  When is the last time you saw TKD on TV, outside of a short clip of the Cuban kicking the ref or the medal rounds of the Lopezes a few weeks ago?  I have my TIVO configured to automatically record anything with TKD in the title or desciption, and have had for years.  I can tell you when the last time TKD was on TV based on that.  It was July of 2007 when one of the dozens of obscure sport channels (some college sport channel) did a highlight show of the 07 World Championships that happened a few months earlier.  It played at 2:00AM.  And if you ask someone today what sport was it where just 3 or 4 weeks ago a Cuban athlete kicked a ref in the head during a temper tantrum in the olympics, I bet you 99 people out of 100 that you ask will either say that they didn't see it or it was karate, kung fu, judo, etc.  Maybe 1 guy off the street will say Taekwondo.



BrandonLucas said:


> What goes on in those tourney's is not TKD. I don't care what you want to call it, but it certainly is not TKD. I am going to make my gripe with it very, very clear:
> 
> Playing that tournement game, gaming the game, axe kicks that could be ambiguous crescent kicks, sparring with your hands at your side, and anything else that I probably missed that has to do with the sport side IS NOT A MARTIAL ART! IT IS NOT TKD!



I am way ahead of you there.  Please see posts 5, 6 & 7 in the thread titled "Olympic style sparring vs. traditional TKD: why all the fuss??" for my proposed solution.  I personally liked post 12 in response as well for suggested names for the sport.



BrandonLucas said:


> I worked very, very hard to earn my black belt. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree, and that was constantly going to practice, going home and practicing, living and breathing TKD. I'm sure your daughter works just as hard for the competition side of it.
> 
> But I earned a true black belt in a martial art. I competed in a few tournements, yes, but that wasn't WHY I trained as hard as I did. That isn't the reason that anyone else at our dojang worked as hard as they did, and all the blackbelts that were there before me earned their belt in the same manner. We all practiced the MARTIAL ART, and we earned our blackbelts in the MARTIAL ART.
> 
> I do not see how these people who compete in the olympics are considered blackbelts in TKD. They may be blackbelts in competition sparring, but not in traditional TKD.
> 
> I also do not see how these people have earned a 3rd or even a 4th degree blackbelt in the time that it took me to earn my 1st degree. Sure, they can point spar alot better than I can, but that's not all there is to TKD.


 
I think you are being very presumptuous here.  In case you have not heard, my daughter spent 8 years in "traditional" TKD before "turning to the dark side".  You have no idea what my kid did to earn her 1st poom and 2nd dan black belts during those years.  She is eligible to test for 3rd in December.  Will she?  Not likely as she is not the least bit prepared for such a thing, given that for the past 2 years or so she has not done anything to prepare for testing.  You also have no idea what any of the people on the olympic stage did to earn their black belts either.  Maybe I am wrong and there was something in your black belt training that gave you super psychic powers.  I doubt it though.  I also posted in the Chuck Norris thread (post 47) just what the minimum KKW time in rank requirements are.  The KKW website I believe also lists the testing requirements.  Yes, I am sure some have fudged on their dan applications, but I am confident that most did not.  What is possible is that they may have earned their 1st dan through KKW and never gone through KKW again and only earned "in house" 2-9th dans within a year, but that has nothing to do with KKW or WTF etc.  As far as those orgs are concerned the person would still be a 1st dan but still be allowed to play on the world stage by virtue of that 1st dan status.



BrandonLucas said:


> I suck at point sparring. I'm terrible at it. I like to keep my hands up when I fight, and I also don't bounce up and down so that I can rocket 23 "roundhouse" kicks in a row. Any move that I make while I spar or fight has purpose. I was taught to have no wasted motion. I was also taught that if I'm going to throw a kicking combo, every last one of the kicks that I throw has to have devistating power behind it.
> 
> I have been kicked by someone throwing the 23 "roundhouse" kick combo. It was not effective at all. I'm not saying that everyone spars like this in the WTF. But from what I've seen, the tournement goers that I've had experience with were terrible at attempting the MARTIAL ART side of it. Alot of the "gamers" have attempted to spar in the traditional style, where you must keep your hands up, and hands to the head are legal. They failed miserabely. And they were angry about it.
> 
> They were angry because they really thought that they were learning TKD, in the sense that they could do what they did at tourney's for SD. I want to make it clear the tourney side of it is NOT SD. But alot of times it gets marketed that way. It should be seperate from TKD. TKD was meant to me a SD MARTIAL ART. Not a "game".
> 
> End of rant. Sorry for the lengthy gripe.



So you suck at point / olympic sparring and point / olympic sparrers suck at your type of sparring.  No real breaking news there.  You were out of your element and failed to adapt to their environment and they were out of their's and were unable to adapt to yours.  And again I agree that the 2 should be separated, just like you.  See you and I are on the same page.


----------



## Sylo

BrandonLucas said:


> Ok, this is what concerns me:
> 
> You say that you are not too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.
> 
> How do you expect the ART to grow? If people constantly see the competition side of it all, and that's all they see, what's going to happen to the MARTIAL ART side of it?
> 
> It's going to disappear, that's what's going to happen.
> 
> What goes on in those tourney's is not TKD. I don't care what you want to call it, but it certainly is not TKD. I am going to make my gripe with it very, very clear:
> 
> Playing that tournement game, gaming the game, axe kicks that could be ambiguous crescent kicks, sparring with your hands at your side, and anything else that I probably missed that has to do with the sport side IS NOT A MARTIAL ART! IT IS NOT TKD!
> 
> I worked very, very hard to earn my black belt. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree, and that was constantly going to practice, going home and practicing, living and breathing TKD. I'm sure your daughter works just as hard for the competition side of it.
> 
> But I earned a true black belt in a martial art. I competed in a few tournements, yes, but that wasn't WHY I trained as hard as I did. That isn't the reason that anyone else at our dojang worked as hard as they did, and all the blackbelts that were there before me earned their belt in the same manner. We all practiced the MARTIAL ART, and we earned our blackbelts in the MARTIAL ART.
> 
> I do not see how these people who compete in the olympics are considered blackbelts in TKD. They may be blackbelts in competition sparring, but not in traditional TKD.
> 
> I also do not see how these people have earned a 3rd or even a 4th degree blackbelt in the time that it took me to earn my 1st degree. Sure, they can point spar alot better than I can, but that's not all there is to TKD.
> 
> I suck at point sparring. I'm terrible at it. I like to keep my hands up when I fight, and I also don't bounce up and down so that I can rocket 23 "roundhouse" kicks in a row. Any move that I make while I spar or fight has purpose. I was taught to have no wasted motion. I was also taught that if I'm going to throw a kicking combo, every last one of the kicks that I throw has to have devistating power behind it.
> 
> I have been kicked by someone throwing the 23 "roundhouse" kick combo. It was not effective at all. I'm not saying that everyone spars like this in the WTF. But from what I've seen, the tournement goers that I've had experience with were terrible at attempting the MARTIAL ART side of it. Alot of the "gamers" have attempted to spar in the traditional style, where you must keep your hands up, and hands to the head are legal. They failed miserabely. And they were angry about it.
> 
> They were angry because they really thought that they were learning TKD, in the sense that they could do what they did at tourney's for SD. I want to make it clear the tourney side of it is NOT SD. But alot of times it gets marketed that way. It should be seperate from TKD. TKD was meant to me a SD MARTIAL ART. Not a "game".
> 
> End of rant. Sorry for the lengthy gripe.




To continue on with some of what Brandon said.

I Have no issues with the "sport" of TKD. 
I don't mind there being a sport version of TKD.
What I do mind.. is when practicioners of this "sport" version go around pretending to be a master at the art. When all they've been taught is a streamlined versions, that contains only what wins tournaments. How can someone be a black belt in TKD if they only train in 3 kicks, and the "blitz" punch? Thats where I have the problem. They aren't black belts in anything. They are trained athletes. Give them, a certificate that says "John Doe is certified as a Sport TKD competitor". I don't want the art that I have spent half my life trying to learn, being tainted by people who come in to these schools to learn .5% and be given the same rank and respect I have.

I'm only high rank blue belt. I have been studying the art for over 3 years, and I haven't even made it to 1st dan yet. I study the forms, the philosophy behind the forms, and the history behind them. I study the moves, and I learn their application as it pertains to what TKD was founded on.. "combat". Then I turn around and see 2nd and 3rd dan folks,  who couldn't do a form to save their life, who couldn't tell you anything about anything other than how to score in a point sparring match. I DO NOT want to be lumped with them. 

But, because those people don't care how TKD is perceived (why should they? they aren't studying TKD anyway right?) When someone comes up and says "Oh, hey your daughter is really good.. what rank is she".. you'll be just as quick to say "Oh yeah, she's <insert dan rank> black belt in WTF TKD". When unless someone can prove to me that these "athletes" have been brought up from white ---> black in a traditional martial art. They are not in the same league as those of us who have. "BLACK BELT" is supposed to mean something. Its supposed to represent the fact that this person has mastered every technique within the art of Tae Kwon Do. They can perform every form to the best of their ability, and they have completely dedicated themselves to mastering it. 

ALL Black belts are not created equal. Anyone attending a sport karate school in my eyes.. should not have rank at all. If thats the case. I should hold back belts in Kenpo, Kali, and Arnis.. since hey, I've learned a couple of "moves" from each of them.

You haven't mastered your art when you only know 3-4 kicks.

Hopefully my 10 month old son will be interested in martial arts. If he comes up to me and says "Dad, I want to be an olympic TKD champion". I'll say "Awesome Son!, now lets get you enrolled in a school so you can learn TKD first". I want my son to know where TKD came from, and to remember his roots. If he wins, it will be because he has mastered his art.

Bottom line.

All we want is seperation.

We do not want to be lumped in with the people who don't study the art. Its apples and oranges. The bad publicity from the olympics and people going around saying "I'm a black belt in 3 kicks" is killing our art. An art we've worked hard to train in, and we don't want to see it basterdized into the level of table tennis.


----- for the record. I read where you said that your daughter has been training in traditional TKD for 8 years? Thats awesome. Thats basically all my points were trying to make. I don't like seeing people come in, and say "I want to be a point fighter" without learning the art first. Its the same reason I don't like alot of the MMA fighters who have no martial arts background at all. So I think we may finally be in agreeance on this topic!-----


----------



## BrandonLucas

You and I are on the same page as far as the fact that what your daughter competes in is not TKD.

If she trained in traditional style before going to "the dark side", as you put it, then great, I applaud her for doing that, and at least she has the experience of knowing what she's using before she competes in the "slap fests" that I see going on in the Olympics.

Where we aren't seeing eye-to-eye, here, is the fact that people who join TKD to only compete in tournements of this nature are giving the rest of TKD a very, very bad name.  Go over to ************** and post on thier forums for a few minutes, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I have to defend myself on other forums constantly because of the tourney crap that is associated with TKD.  People, other martial artists, consider the art a joke now.  THAT is what makes me angry.  

If someone were to go to a dojang that only taught the olympic style of TKD, and earned a blackbelt through that system, as far as I'm concerned, they are no blackbelt at all.  In fact, the dojangs that promote that style of TKD are the McDojo's you hear about all the time...belt factories.

Why do they all come from TKD?  Because there is so much policital crap that comes from the martial art.

So, I'm glad that your daughter actually has real martial arts training.  I'm glad that she got that BEFORE competing in these tourney's.  But what about the people who race through the system and grab a black belt simply so they can compete?

And, while we're at it, who the HELL gives a blackbelt to a guy like the cuban in the Olympics????  If you had to EARN the belt around your waist, then you don't react like a child when you don't agree with a call.  He is a prime example of someone who came from a beltfactory school just so he could compete and show the world how fast his "axe" kick is.

And, FYI, all of my friends know about the cuban kicking the ref in the Olympics, and they all know he was TKD.  Kind of hard to miss with Tae Kwon Do banners all over the place, a write up in USA Today, and articles on MSN.  

Yeah, no one pays attention to THAT kind of thing.


----------



## Sylo

BrandonLucas said:


> You and I are on the same page as far as the fact that what your daughter competes in is not TKD.
> 
> If she trained in traditional style before going to "the dark side", as you put it, then great, I applaud her for doing that, and at least she has the experience of knowing what she's using before she competes in the "slap fests" that I see going on in the Olympics.
> 
> Where we aren't seeing eye-to-eye, here, is the fact that people who join TKD to only compete in tournements of this nature are giving the rest of TKD a very, very bad name.  Go over to ************** and post on thier forums for a few minutes, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
> 
> I have to defend myself on other forums constantly because of the tourney crap that is associated with TKD.  People, other martial artists, consider the art a joke now.  THAT is what makes me angry.
> 
> If someone were to go to a dojang that only taught the olympic style of TKD, and earned a blackbelt through that system, as far as I'm concerned, they are no blackbelt at all.  In fact, the dojangs that promote that style of TKD are the McDojo's you hear about all the time...belt factories.
> 
> Why do they all come from TKD?  Because there is so much policital crap that comes from the martial art.
> 
> So, I'm glad that your daughter actually has real martial arts training.  I'm glad that she got that BEFORE competing in these tourney's.  But what about the people who race through the system and grab a black belt simply so they can compete?
> 
> And, while we're at it, who the HELL gives a blackbelt to a guy like the cuban in the Olympics????  If you had to EARN the belt around your waist, then you don't react like a child when you don't agree with a call.  He is a prime example of someone who came from a beltfactory school just so he could compete and show the world how fast his "axe" kick is.
> 
> And, FYI, all of my friends know about the cuban kicking the ref in the Olympics, and they all know he was TKD.  Kind of hard to miss with Tae Kwon Do banners all over the place, a write up in USA Today, and articles on MSN.
> 
> Yeah, no one pays attention to THAT kind of thing.



On that note.

One thing I would like to mention about the Olympic incident that really hit home with me.

One of the biggest draws to training in TKD is discipline and self control, right?

So you'd think someone that is a master of his art, and has spent the majority of his life training in.. would have enough discipline and self control to not let a bad call get the best of him. 

He let the "sport" get to his head. And, the fact that he lost his cool.. just shows how little TKD training he has. Being a world champion in the Olympics doesn't make you a master martial artist. So I just wish they would stop trying to pretend like they are. 

Apparently his school doesn't teach them to be humble and disciplined. Your supposed to avoid fights, not start them.


----------



## mango.man

And his little temper tantrum cost him and his coach their ability to compete on the world stage ever again.  Not that he had much of a career left anyway.  I believe he was 35 or 36 years old.

And I didn't say ask 100 of your friends that know you are involved in TKD what sport that was.  Go to a mall, or go stand on a street corner and ask 100 random people that you don't know and that don't know you.  See how hip they are to the fact that it was a TKD guy.

Here is the question to ask:

"In the Olympic games that just completed, in what sport did an athlete intentionally kick a referee in the face after he was disqualified during a bronze medal round of competition?"

Here is my prediction of the types of results you will get.

50% or so will say, "Sorry I did not pay much attention to the Olympics, so I don't know".
30% or so will say some non-combat sport like gymnastics, track & field, swimming, etc.
19% will say a combat sport other than TKD like karate, boxing, judo, wrestling.
1% will say Taekwondo.

Hmmm sounds like a fun experiment.  Maybe I will do it myself.


----------



## Sylo

mango.man said:


> And his little temper tantrum cost him and his coach their ability to compete on the world stage ever again.  Not that he had much of a career left anyway.  I believe he was 35 or 36 years old.
> 
> And I didn't say ask 100 of your friends that know you are involved in TKD what sport that was.  Go to a mall, or go stand on a street corner and ask 100 random people that you don't know and that don't know you.  See how hip they are to the fact that it was a TKD guy.
> 
> Here is the question to ask:
> 
> "In the Olympic games that just completed, in what sport did an athlete intentionally kick a referee in the face after he was disqualified during a bronze medal round of competition?"
> 
> Here is my prediction of the types of results you will get.
> 
> 50% or so will say, "Sorry I did not pay much attention to the Olympics, so I don't know".
> 30% or so will say some non-combat sport like gymnastics, track & field, swimming, etc.
> 19% will say a combat sport other than TKD like karate, boxing, judo, wrestling.
> 1% will say Taekwondo.
> 
> Hmmm sounds like a fun experiment.  Maybe I will do it myself.




Your right, your average person will call any martial art.. either Karate or Judo. Heck my mom after all these years, still calls what I do "Karate". My personal stake on it, was that TKD is considered the laughing stock of ALL martial arts.. in the martial arts "world". I mean, most of the world doesn't know who Bill Superfoot Wallace, or Benny the Jet Urquidez, or Michelle the Mouse Krasnoo.. even is. Unless its Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal.. or now adays.. Jet Li and Tony Jaa.. the GENERAL public still lump all martial arts together as either Karate or Kung fu. If they fight in the UFC.. its MMA.. regardless of style.

I just wish TKD still held the same status as it did, when if you told someone you had a black belt in it.. it was a big deal. 

Modern TKD schools have killed that, by creating black belt factories and manufactoring sparring champions. There's no mysticism left. 

all these things as a whole..

the lax rule competition sparring where you don't even need to know the art to compete.
the no hands up
the 8 year old 3rd dans
the Olympic catastrophe
youtube videos
the US karate open on ESPN..
XMA

its not one thing, but a culmination of all these things that have nearly driven what used to be an "Art" form.. into just another commercialized macho sport. 

I'm just gonna pretend this stuff doesn't exist, and go on training in my art like I do currently. Hopefully TKD will get pulled from the olympics, and they will actually replace it with another "sport" like pie eating or something.


----------



## BrandonLucas

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.

Only 2 out of the 12 friends that said something about the Olympic "incident" are in TKD, or even know what it's all about.

The fact that it happened paints a very ugly picture of the martial art to ANYONE that sees it.

Let's draw up a scenerio, shall we?

Bob, who is currently a greenbelt in TKD, goes to highschool, and is in the 10th grade.  All of his friends know that he is involved in TKD, and Bob like to compete in the tournements that are within driving distance.  He happens to be WTF.

Bob goes to school after the "event" happened at the Olympics, and he tells his friends at lunch about what happened.  2 of his friends have been thinking about joining TKD with Bob, so that they can hang out after school.  Those 2 friends decide not to join, because they ask themselves what kind of respectable school would allow a blackbelt to act in such a manner?  

So now the 2 friends go and tell their parents, who were thinking of enrolling them in the classes of what they were told, and those parents tell their buddies at work that they almost joined their kids up to join a martial art that has blackbelts that throw temper tantrums.  

See where I'm going with this?  I don't care WHO hears about it...word gets around.  Otherwise, TKD would never have gone to the Olympics to begin with.  Who would want to have an event in the Olympics that no one has ever heard of?

If you think that people in general don't know about what happened, you are wrong.  Sure, not that many people know, and only a fraction of those people really care.  But that fraction of people who care could have wanted to start taking TKD at one point.  Now they may not want to.

I'm telling you, go to bullshido on the forums and ask around what the opinion of TKD is.  It's considered a joke.  

And that is what angers me.


----------



## mango.man

I have not been on that site for a very long time.  As I recall though, if you do anything other than BJJ than they consider your "art" a joke.  Don't they have a name for each month like this is TKD sucks month and that is karate sucks month and another is ninjitsu sucks month etc.

As I said I have not been on the site for a while, but as I remember things, if you didn't do a "art" that involved rolling on the floor with other guys, you got bagged on there.

And I don't buy your school yard analogy at all.  Perhaps I give too much credit to the human race to be able to think for themselves, but I just don't see a kid going home and telling their parent "I don't wanna do TKD anymore because Angel Matos kicked a ref in the face." any more than I see a kid telling their parent, "I don't wanna do archery anymore because some guy killed a random homeless person with a bow and arrow"  (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=6012294) for the details of an incident that happened in my hometown a few months back.


----------



## BrandonLucas

So you're saying that people in general can't think for themselves?

Wow.

I'm not saying that everyone knows what TKD is.  I'm saying that the turdhead that kicked the ref in the face isn't helping the MARTIAL ART out in the least bit.  

I guess that if everyone thought the same as you, then TKD would certainly not have the rep that it does.  But, unfortunately, the human race doesn't think for themselves, and the MARTIAL ART is going to go to waste because I guess no one knows about it.


----------



## Sylo

mango.man said:


> I have not been on that site for a very long time.  As I recall though, if you do anything other than BJJ than they consider your "art" a joke.  Don't they have a name for each month like this is TKD sucks month and that is karate sucks month and another is ninjitsu sucks month etc.
> 
> As I said I have not been on the site for a while, but as I remember things, if you didn't do a "art" that involved rolling on the floor with other guys, you got bagged on there.
> 
> And I don't buy your school yard analogy at all.  Perhaps I give too much credit to the human race to be able to think for themselves, but I just don't see a kid going home and telling their parent "I don't wanna do TKD anymore because Angel Matos kicked a ref in the face." any more than I see a kid telling their parent, "I don't wanna do archery anymore because some guy killed a random homeless person with a bow and arrow"  (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=6012294) for the details of an incident that happened in my hometown a few months back.




I don't think this only applies to internet forums, or to even just WTF sparring, or no hands up sparring. I also think MMA has alot to do with the decline in the "Art" of martial arts. More min maxing, and gaming the system. TKD gets a bad rap for alot of different reasons.. none of which are because of the art itself, but 100% because of what we have done to make it that way. I'm all for martial arts as fitness and discipline. This is true for all martial arts... but TKD seems to get hit the hardest, and I'm not sure why. I'd rather it be like it was back in the 80s.. when it was still a spectical.

Like I said. I will study the way my instructor studied back in the 70s, and I'll continue to fight the point when someone says "I'm a black belt in sport karate".


----------



## Tez3

I don't know how it is in the States but over here the TKD made all the headlines in all the newspapers and also made headlines on all the television news. This was because the British girl was blatently denied a win in her match with a Chinese girl and the British officials put an objection in which meant the decision was overturned. The Cuban incident was secondary but shown in tandem with the misjudging story. 
The media had a field day showing photos of the head kick to the Chinese girl with her head flung back and the lower lip bloody. Politicians, sports people, athletes, swimmers, everyone and their grandma had an opinion on it. 
People who had never heard of TKD and didn't care about it were however talking about that incident and then the Cuban, very bad publicity.
You have to bear in mind that people equate that sort of fighting to 'karate' or 'kung fu' generally ( even confusing it with Judo, ironically as the judging/reffing was of the same standard) so anyone who had anything to do with any sort of martial arts was being asked by people how that could happen so all in all martial arts as a whole took a bit of a bashing that day.


----------



## mango.man

BrandonLucas said:


> So you're saying that people in general can't think for themselves?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> I'm not saying that everyone knows what TKD is.  I'm saying that the turdhead that kicked the ref in the face isn't helping the MARTIAL ART out in the least bit.
> 
> I guess that if everyone thought the same as you, then TKD would certainly not have the rep that it does.  But, unfortunately, the human race doesn't think for themselves, and the MARTIAL ART is going to go to waste because I guess no one knows about it.



Actually I said quite the opposite, but that is the problem with you.  You are trying to read between the lines of my posts instead of reading my words.

I don't now, nor have I ever tried to, hide secret messages in my posts.  I say things exactly as I see them and they should not be interpreted any other way.

You are the one that gave the example of little johnny on the school yard hearing about an incident in the olympics and then telling his parents and then his parents telling his coworkers and then all of a sudden everyone is painting all of TKD with a broadbrush.  Therefore you are the one saying that people can't think for themselves.  "WOW"

I on the other hand stated that I give the human race credit for being able to think for themselves and not make such broad conclusions based on 1 incident.

I am with (I think it was bluekey) whoever said we are beating a dead horse several posts back.  Therefore I think I am pretty much done with this thread.  Don't worry, I will continue to post my thoughts and feelings in other topics on this and other forums and I am sure the this subject will be greatly discussed in the future as well.


----------



## BrandonLucas

"And I don't buy your school yard analogy at all. Perhaps I give too much credit to the human race to be able to think for themselves..."

Your words, sir.

Not reading between the lines on anything here.

We are in agreement that the tourny style should be seperated from TKD, and the tourny style should NOT be labled as a MARTIAL ART.

Maybe this would solve the whole situation. Until that happens, I'm going to train hard to be a MARTIAL ARTIST. 

So I guess we should just agree to disagree on the rest.


----------



## mango.man

Right.  Those are exactly my words.  Me giving the human race credit for being able to think for themselves and you, by virtue of your school yard analogy, saying that the human race bases their decisions on groupthink.

And indeed we will just have to agree to disagree on everything other than the fact that the 2 should be separated.

Have a great day and best of luck to you throughout the remainder of your martial arts life.


----------



## BrandonLucas

"Perhaps I give TOO MUCH CREDIT TO THE HUMAN RACE TO BE ABLE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES...."

You might want to re-read your statement and think about it.

If you give the human race too much credit to think for themselves, that means that you think the human race CANNOT think for themselves.  

If you want to make a point, make sure you type it correctly.


----------



## slingblade01

I am at a lose in understanding some of the arguments here.

Your traditional styles of TKD have borrowed techniques (hands-up) from boxing and you call it TKD. Study your history. Most, if not all of TKD was derived from Shotokan. For those of you that dont know, the 5 original kwan jangs were students of Funikoshi; most were direct students. Funikoshi was not an advocate of free sparring. Simply put, he did not teach hands-up free sparring. Despite this, free sparring tournaments developed in Japan and likewise in Korean Taesoodo (TKD, early 60s). Due to the style of fighting then, a hands-up boxing style was practical and adopted.
To further this point, please cite any poomse that you practice in which a hands-up guarded technique is utilized.

Next, you want to block kicks. This was a great concept up until the 70s when double kicking evolved. Block one kick while the other foot is kicking you somewhere else. Also, what block do you use in your sparring training to block an old style ax kick??? This kick would snap an arm like a toothpick. BTW, the ax kick was developed in the late-60s, early-70s by Jun Yong-Ho, a sport TKD advocate, to beat the blocking game. It is also not a traditional kick. Can you cite the poomse where it was derived? 

As you can see, blocking became obsolete in sport TKD in the early 70s and was replaced with movement  part of sport TKDs evolution.

Now, before most of you get too defensive about your traditional TKD, I have been practicing traditional TKD for nearly 30 years and I have a great appreciation for it. Also, I have competed in about every flavor of TKD and Karate tournaments that I could find. Yet, for sparring, I managed to gravitate towards sport TKD because of the challenge, its dynamic aspect, the modern training methodologies, and its strategic complexity. Dont get me wrong, Im not naïve enough to believe that sport TKD is not without its share of problems, such as the WTF, USAT, and AAU. I could cite numerous problems with each organization, but thats the nature of all sports. Nor am I naïve about problems with the rules (WTF): punching, falling, stalling. These problems are finally a concern for the WTF. But it may take a decade to iron them out. The sport is young and still evolving.

Instead of focusing on the negative aspects of sport TKD, I focus on more positive aspects such as its refinement. For instance, take Mango Mans video of his daughters ax kick. This is a nearly textbook example of a modern ax kick. Yet, some of you criticize what you dont understand. If you watch Samanthas opponents, in both instances her opponents moved forward at the very last instant. Her technique was so good, that the opponent had no clue as to what kick was coming until it was too late. No one mentioned the attempted block in the first video. A taller, old style ax may have allowed her opponents to get under the leg and jam the kick. Hands-up, hands-down, how do block a kick for which you dont know the angle of attack until it is un-chambering?

But getting back to hands-up or hands-down, the distance of experienced fighters has grown over the years. A good fighter should be slightly outside of head kicking range and slightly inside of body kicking range, hence, the hands down. These hands are usually found about a foot or so away from the body as to absorb the blow of the kick if the fighter finds himself unable to avoid the kick. I believe someone on this thread referred to this negatively as passive blocking. However you want to label it, this method of covering the target area has been proven to be efficient and effective time-and-time-again. Anyone believing to directly "strike the kicking leg with your block" is an effective method for blocking may want to revisit high school physics concerning collisions of stationary and moving (towards and away at different speeds) objects.
Let me leave you with this thought, instead of quickly judging other styles, why not see what you can learn or borrow first.


----------



## Kwanjang

slingblade01 said:


> I am at a lose in understanding some of the arguments here.
> 
> Your traditional styles of TKD have borrowed techniques (hands-up) from boxing and you call it TKD. Study your history. Most, if not all of TKD was derived from Shotokan. For those of you that dont know, the 5 original kwan jangs were students of Funikoshi; most were direct students. Funikoshi was not an advocate of free sparring. Simply put, he did not teach hands-up free sparring. Despite this, free sparring tournaments developed in Japan and likewise in Korean Taesoodo (TKD, early 60s). Due to the style of fighting then, a hands-up boxing style was practical and adopted.
> To further this point, please cite any poomse that you practice in which a hands-up guarded technique is utilized.
> 
> Next, you want to block kicks. This was a great concept up until the 70s when double kicking evolved. Block one kick while the other foot is kicking you somewhere else. Also, what block do you use in your sparring training to block an old style ax kick??? This kick would snap an arm like a toothpick. BTW, the ax kick was developed in the late-60s, early-70s by Jun Yong-Ho, a sport TKD advocate, to beat the blocking game. It is also not a traditional kick. Can you cite the poomse where it was derived?
> 
> As you can see, blocking became obsolete in sport TKD in the early 70s and was replaced with movement  part of sport TKDs evolution.
> 
> Now, before most of you get too defensive about your traditional TKD, I have been practicing traditional TKD for nearly 30 years and I have a great appreciation for it. Also, I have competed in about every flavor of TKD and Karate tournaments that I could find. Yet, for sparring, I managed to gravitate towards sport TKD because of the challenge, its dynamic aspect, the modern training methodologies, and its strategic complexity. Dont get me wrong, Im not naïve enough to believe that sport TKD is not without its share of problems, such as the WTF, USAT, and AAU. I could cite numerous problems with each organization, but thats the nature of all sports. Nor am I naïve about problems with the rules (WTF): punching, falling, stalling. These problems are finally a concern for the WTF. But it may take a decade to iron them out. The sport is young and still evolving.
> 
> Instead of focusing on the negative aspects of sport TKD, I focus on more positive aspects such as its refinement. For instance, take Mango Mans video of his daughters ax kick. This is a nearly textbook example of a modern ax kick. Yet, some of you criticize what you dont understand. If you watch Samanthas opponents, in both instances her opponents moved forward at the very last instant. Her technique was so good, that the opponent had no clue as to what kick was coming until it was too late. No one mentioned the attempted block in the first video. A taller, old style ax may have allowed her opponents to get under the leg and jam the kick. Hands-up, hands-down, how do block a kick for which you dont know the angle of attack until it is un-chambering?
> 
> But getting back to hands-up or hands-down, the distance of experienced fighters has grown over the years. A good fighter should be slightly outside of head kicking range and slightly inside of body kicking range, hence, the hands down. These hands are usually found about a foot or so away from the body as to absorb the blow of the kick if the fighter finds himself unable to avoid the kick. I believe someone on this thread referred to this negatively as passive blocking. However you want to label it, this method of covering the target area has been proven to be efficient and effective time-and-time-again. Anyone believing to directly "strike the kicking leg with your block" is an effective method for blocking may want to revisit high school physics concerning collisions of stationary and moving (towards and away at different speeds) objects.
> Let me leave you with this thought, instead of quickly judging other styles, why not see what you can learn or borrow first.


 
A GOOD post! Mostly agree-some I don't. None the less, well stated!


----------



## Sylo

slingblade01 said:


> I am at a lose in understanding some of the arguments here.
> 
> Your traditional styles of TKD have borrowed techniques (hands-up) from boxing and you call it TKD. Study your history. Most, if not all of TKD was derived from Shotokan. For those of you that dont know, the 5 original kwan jangs were students of Funikoshi; most were direct students. Funikoshi was not an advocate of free sparring. Simply put, he did not teach hands-up free sparring. Despite this, free sparring tournaments developed in Japan and likewise in Korean Taesoodo (TKD, early 60s). Due to the style of fighting then, a hands-up boxing style was practical and adopted.
> To further this point, please cite any poomse that you practice in which a hands-up guarded technique is utilized.
> 
> Next, you want to block kicks. This was a great concept up until the 70s when double kicking evolved. Block one kick while the other foot is kicking you somewhere else. Also, what block do you use in your sparring training to block an old style ax kick??? This kick would snap an arm like a toothpick. BTW, the ax kick was developed in the late-60s, early-70s by Jun Yong-Ho, a sport TKD advocate, to beat the blocking game. It is also not a traditional kick. Can you cite the poomse where it was derived?
> 
> As you can see, blocking became obsolete in sport TKD in the early 70s and was replaced with movement  part of sport TKDs evolution.
> 
> Now, before most of you get too defensive about your traditional TKD, I have been practicing traditional TKD for nearly 30 years and I have a great appreciation for it. Also, I have competed in about every flavor of TKD and Karate tournaments that I could find. Yet, for sparring, I managed to gravitate towards sport TKD because of the challenge, its dynamic aspect, the modern training methodologies, and its strategic complexity. Dont get me wrong, Im not naïve enough to believe that sport TKD is not without its share of problems, such as the WTF, USAT, and AAU. I could cite numerous problems with each organization, but thats the nature of all sports. Nor am I naïve about problems with the rules (WTF): punching, falling, stalling. These problems are finally a concern for the WTF. But it may take a decade to iron them out. The sport is young and still evolving.
> 
> Instead of focusing on the negative aspects of sport TKD, I focus on more positive aspects such as its refinement. For instance, take Mango Mans video of his daughters ax kick. This is a nearly textbook example of a modern ax kick. Yet, some of you criticize what you dont understand. If you watch Samanthas opponents, in both instances her opponents moved forward at the very last instant. Her technique was so good, that the opponent had no clue as to what kick was coming until it was too late. No one mentioned the attempted block in the first video. A taller, old style ax may have allowed her opponents to get under the leg and jam the kick. Hands-up, hands-down, how do block a kick for which you dont know the angle of attack until it is un-chambering?
> 
> But getting back to hands-up or hands-down, the distance of experienced fighters has grown over the years. A good fighter should be slightly outside of head kicking range and slightly inside of body kicking range, hence, the hands down. These hands are usually found about a foot or so away from the body as to absorb the blow of the kick if the fighter finds himself unable to avoid the kick. I believe someone on this thread referred to this negatively as passive blocking. However you want to label it, this method of covering the target area has been proven to be efficient and effective time-and-time-again. Anyone believing to directly "strike the kicking leg with your block" is an effective method for blocking may want to revisit high school physics concerning collisions of stationary and moving (towards and away at different speeds) objects.
> Let me leave you with this thought, instead of quickly judging other styles, why not see what you can learn or borrow first.



everything borrows something, from something.

We aren't trying to play a game of technicalities. If you want to pull up the history lessons. Are we forgetting the whole entire concept of what ALL martial arts were created to do?

Scoring points is not one of them. Unless I'm not reading the same history books you are.

Bottom line is.. there are no right or wrong answers. Only opinions.

As far as I am concerned, I will continue to study TKD in the methods that my instructor was taught back when TKD meant something more than just being a tappity tap sport. I'll compete in the tournaments that still have the old way of thinking (if that even exists anymore), and I'll still make sure that every person (martial artists or not) that I come across, know that this isn't the same art I have spent most of my life mastering. Props go out to those people like mango.man's daughter who actually took the time to learn the art, before moving to the sport. 

Anyone who is wearing a black belt, that trains only in sport karate.. will continue to be fakes in my mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6pR-3reEo8&feature=related

listen to what he says at the tail end of the video. 

Thats basically how I feel.


----------



## slingblade01

Sylo,
The next time you feel the need to discredit a post, try to convey your points with logic, fact, or history.

I gave a brief history of the evolution of the covered block/guard, an original martial arts technique not found in any other sport. Yet, you persist to deny its merit due to its lack of tradition or old way of thinking. How old is old enough? Heres a modern technique borne out of TKD, yet you profess to everyone that its not real martial arts. However, the boxing guard is? I find it ironic that you watched a few ITF world championship vids, and almost noone had their hands up. Are your seniors not worthy either? What kind of martial artist are you to have such a narrow scope?

Next, you imply that the martial arts were not created for tournaments, scoring points. OK, Ill concede that point. Then why do you have an interest in competing in tournaments? Are you truly the purist that you avow to be?

On another point, I think I can safely say, based on the lack of replies, no one cares about your great disdain for sport karate. The tile of this thread does not mention sport karate. No one else in this thread discusses sport karate  only you. Is this your childish attempt to try to equate sport TKD to sport karate because of some personal past issues? Or are you just unable to stay focused on the topic?

Last, I will leave you with these two thoughts. First, go back to your video of Phillip Rhee, a listen to what he says at 8:10. Second, everyone has something to teach you but only if you are willing to learn.


----------



## slingblade01

Kwanjang said:


> A GOOD post! Mostly agree-some I don't. None the less, well stated!


 
Thank you for the compliment. What parts do you not agree with? I'm always interested in another's point of view.


----------



## Kwanjang

slingblade01 said:


> Thank you for the compliment. What parts do you not agree with? I'm always interested in another's point of view.


 
Once again, a great post!


----------



## Sylo

slingblade01 said:


> Sylo,
> The next time you feel the need to discredit a post, try to convey your points with logic, fact, or history.
> 
> I gave a brief history of the evolution of the covered block/guard, an original martial arts technique not found in any other sport. Yet, you persist to deny its merit due to its lack of tradition or old way of thinking. How old is old enough? Heres a modern technique borne out of TKD, yet you profess to everyone that its not real martial arts. However, the boxing guard is? I find it ironic that you watched a few ITF world championship vids, and almost noone had their hands up. Are your seniors not worthy either? What kind of martial artist are you to have such a narrow scope?
> 
> Next, you imply that the martial arts were not created for tournaments, scoring points. OK, Ill concede that point. Then why do you have an interest in competing in tournaments? Are you truly the purist that you avow to be?
> 
> On another point, I think I can safely say, based on the lack of replies, no one cares about your great disdain for sport karate. The tile of this thread does not mention sport karate. No one else in this thread discusses sport karate  only you. Is this your childish attempt to try to equate sport TKD to sport karate because of some personal past issues? Or are you just unable to stay focused on the topic?
> 
> Last, I will leave you with these two thoughts. First, go back to your video of Phillip Rhee, a listen to what he says at 8:10. Second, everyone has something to teach you but only if you are willing to learn.




I have only one issue, and have only had one issue this entire time and I don't see how any other martial artists regardless of style would not agree.

I do no have issues with competing, or sport karate, or sport tkd or whatever. No I don't agree with them never putting their hands up, but the rules allow it so what can I do?

My issue, is that there are people who are "training" only to compete. Having never ever, took a traditional martial arts class. They are enrolling in competition schools, where they are only taught whats needed to win tournaments, and are being handed black belts, because "Hey? who wants to compete unless your black belt right?". 

Thats my problem with it. I don't care at all how you want to use your skills once you have earned them. But, I do not agree with "competiton" schools who don't teach anything but tournament winning techniques, and handing them a black belt for it. Its nowhere near the same thing.

That is all.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Slingblade, fantastic post.

Anyhow, I disagree about the competition and the traditional being separated.  I know that I'm probably the odd one out on that, but I feel that the sport competition is extremely useful for developing kicks, probably the single most effective tool for developing effective kicks in real time.  While I feel that the woes of one affect the other, the reverse is also true; tradition and sport can enhance eachother.

I do feel that sport only schools should dispense with belts and that tournaments should be like fencing, with a-e and u ratings (a being the top competitors and e being the lowest rating, while u simply means unrated).  Ratings in fencing go up and down depending on competition record and competition frequency (if you're undefeated for five years and then don't compete for two after that, you aren't 'a' rated anymore).

Daniel


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## bluekey88

That would certainly make sense.  A reasonable compromise I think.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## slingblade01

Ah, intelligent discourse! 



Celtic Tiger said:


> Anyhow, I disagree about the competition and the traditional being separated. I know that I'm probably the odd one out on that, but I feel that the sport competition is extremely useful for developing kicks, probably the single most effective tool for developing effective kicks in real time. While I feel that the woes of one affect the other, the reverse is also true; tradition and sport can enhance eachother.


 
I would have agreed with you about 10 years ago.
However, the more I learn, the more I revise my opinions.

First point, if we look at a successful model to guide us, look at our academic structure. Some individuals don't go to college. Some go to tech schools while others go on to college. Let's focus on college. The first two years, you obtain a well rounded education - core classes. The next two years, you focus on your field of study - your major, and that is usually fairly specific. If you choose to continue a post-grad education, then you may specialize even further.
So you can see, based on this simplified academic model, a chemical engineering student concentrates on his specialization after two years of a well rounded education. He's not bogged down with english, poli-sci, history, etc. This is how we build professionals in industries. This model is centuries old and global accepted. Without this model, we would not have professionals and high achievement/ advancements in industry.

Second point, how much time do you think it takes to become a world/olympic champion? How long do you think the journey takes?
Hint - they are professionals in their industry.
Let me appproach this from adifferent angle. Many of you may know or are training under Grandmaster so-and-so who was a former world champion. Some of you may be shocked to learn that once they aquired their black and were able to make the elementary/ middle school team, they were done with poomse, one steps, kyuk-pa, whatever. All they did was train for tournaments. This is the model currently, and sinces the 70s, used today in Korea. Prior to then, in the old kwan days, some athletes did do a limited amount of poomse to keep up appearances. Now another question, did G.M. so-and-so turn out so bad? Is he a bad instructor/ person?



> I do feel that sport only schools should dispense with belts and that tournaments should be like fencing, with a-e and u ratings (a being the top competitors and e being the lowest rating, while u simply means unrated). Ratings in fencing go up and down depending on competition record and competition frequency (if you're undefeated for five years and then don't compete for two after that, you aren't 'a' rated anymore).


 
I completely agree!
Gymnastics uses a similar method. I seriously wish this would happen but I honesty don't think it will in this country, nor will Korea allow it to happen.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

slingblade01 said:


> Ah, intelligent discourse!


Thanks!  And likewise.



slingblade01 said:


> I would have agreed with you about 10 years ago.
> However, the more I learn, the more I revise my opinions.


Yes, but it would take less effort to get the two in sync than it would to completely divorce them, which I think would ultimately be a huge blow to the sport (my opinion).  The mechanism is already there for having a bit more 'tradition' (for lack of a better word) with belt testings and an existing KKW curriculum that is more comprehensive than just the sport aspect.  And things haven't gotten nearly so different since 98.  Trying to take TKD back to 1970 would be impossible, but trying to tighten it up and improve the overall art, sport and SD together, is still within reach.



slingblade01 said:


> First point, if we look at a successful model to guide us, look at our academic structure. Some individuals don't go to college. Some go to tech schools while others go on to college. Let's focus on college. The first two years, you obtain a well rounded education - core classes. The next two years, you focus on your field of study - your major, and that is usually fairly specific. If you choose to continue a post-grad education, then you may specialize even further.
> So you can see, based on this simplified academic model, a chemical engineering student concentrates on his specialization after two years of a well rounded education. He's not bogged down with english, poli-sci, history, etc. This is how we build professionals in industries. This model is centuries old and global accepted. Without this model, we would not have professionals and high achievement/ advancements in industry.
> 
> Second point, how much time do you think it takes to become a world/olympic champion? How long do you think the journey takes?
> Hint - they are professionals in their industry.
> Let me appproach this from adifferent angle. Many of you may know or are training under Grandmaster so-and-so who was a former world champion. Some of you may be shocked to learn that once they aquired their black and were able to make the elementary/ middle school team, they were done with poomse, one steps, kyuk-pa, whatever. All they did was train for tournaments. This is the model currently, and sinces the 70s, used today in Korea. Prior to then, in the old kwan days, some athletes did do a limited amount of poomse to keep up appearances. Now another question, did G.M. so-and-so turn out so bad? Is he a bad instructor/ person?


I am very fortunate; my GM is the 1992 Korean national champion, but he teaches a strong traditional base and his classes have a big focus on poomsae.  In fact, our tests have comparatively little sparring as compared with the rest of what we are tested on.  Consequently, our tournament and competition junkies are still very well rounded fighter.  Of course he was also a hapkido instructor in the ROK special army, so we get a pretty solid SD curriculum.  He enforces the same etiquette that our kendo students must display in tournament on taekwondo students.  Just to make this touch a little on the topic, we are not taught to spar with our hands at our waist, though we don't hold them as high as a boxer.  

Like I said, I've been fortunate, but what you observe is, sadly, more the norm than not.



slingblade01 said:


> I completely agree!
> Gymnastics uses a similar method. I seriously wish this would happen but I honesty don't think it will in this country, nor will Korea allow it to happen.


You're right on the money there; too much money in belt testings and too little incentive to suburbanite moms and dads who intend for little Johny and Suzy to have blackbelts in a year and a half to two years.

Daniel


----------



## Sylo

Hey.

If people want to win tournaments thats great.

as long as their black belt has "Sport TKD expert" on it, and not "TKD master" on it.. I'm more than thrilled.

You can't go to medical school, dissect a few frogs very well, and call yourself a doctor.

I think the same applies.


----------



## mango.man

Sylo said:


> Hey.
> 
> If people want to win tournaments thats great.
> 
> as long as their black belt has "Sport TKD expert" on it, and not "TKD master" on it.. I'm more than thrilled.
> 
> You can't go to medical school, dissect a few frogs very well, and call yourself a doctor.
> 
> I think the same applies.


 
I am sure I can find a school somewhere that offers a PhD in disection.  And then I could call myself a Doctor.


----------



## terryl965

Sylo said:


> Hey.
> 
> If people want to win tournaments thats great.
> 
> as long as their black belt has "Sport TKD expert" on it, and not "TKD master" on it.. I'm more than thrilled.
> 
> You can't go to medical school, dissect a few frogs very well, and call yourself a doctor.
> 
> I think the same applies.


 
Sylo I have to say without  adoubt that is the most riduculas thing I heard. But each there own. Does your Black Belt say Master of Tae Kwon Do or are you just making blanket statements? I mean you are so against anything to do with sports or tournament type of sparring, did you get beat by one of these types of players? :rofl:     I guess we all have our reason to not like the sport aspect as well as like it, what I find funny is sports in the US is the biggest money maker than any other business, little league, volleybal, football, basketball and a few more. I guess there is no room for the sport in Martial Arts, wait do we not have the Ultimate fighter and shows like that damm the all, bring out the cannons and get rid of everybody.:asian:


----------



## Sylo

terryl965 said:


> Sylo I have to say without  adoubt that is the most riduculas thing I heard. But each there own. Does your Black Belt say Master of Tae Kwon Do or are you just making blanket statements? I mean you are so against anything to do with sports or tournament type of sparring, did you get beat by one of these types of players? :rofl:     I guess we all have our reason to not like the sport aspect as well as like it, what I find funny is sports in the US is the biggest money maker than any other business, little league, volleybal, football, basketball and a few more. I guess there is no room for the sport in Martial Arts, wait do we not have the Ultimate fighter and shows like that damm the all, bring out the cannons and get rid of everybody.:asian:




I'm not trying to make enemies here. We all have opinions. Mine are not wrong, and neither are yours. Yeah I kind of have this pent up aggression against sports. Why? Because I live in redneckville where the world revolves around football and basketball. Noone cares if you have an education, just as long as you can do either of those 2 things very well. Our entire city shuts down during football season. So yeah I kind of have an animosity towards sports..

However, that animosity has nothing to do with my comments on this subject. You guys are either missing my point all together, or just wanting have a reason to discredit anything I say. 

So let me try to clear this up one more time.

1. I do not dislike sport karate. I do not dislike people who partake in sport karate. I think that it has its place.

2. I have competed, and will compete again at some point. I will train the way my instructor has me train, and I will train on my own. I will follow the rules as they are set, regardless of whether I agree with them and I will see how far my training takes me. I'll win some and lose some.

3. I agree that having traditional and sport training mixed together, can be a valuable tool. I do not believe one should train soley for the sport part without first having learned the core. You can't learn algebra without learning basic math first. If I ask you what a poomse, tae guk, or chang hon pattern is.. you should be able to answer my question without hesitation.

4. I disagree in someone walking in off the street, coming into a school and saying "teach me how to win tournaments, I don't care about the other stuff". I disagree with them holding, rank unless it partains to the sport aspect of it only. Such as what was already mentioned, similar to fencing.


Basically I want to see people learning martial for the SD and art part of it first, sport as an extracurriculur activity. Thats just what I am used to. There are unfortunately, no right or wrong answers here.. only opinions.

I mean no offense to anyone who chooses to skip the tradition, and go straight to scoring points at tournaments. If thats how you choose to train, then all I can do is disagree with you and move on. Noone every agrees with everyone about everything. If we did, we'd be a dull bunch.


----------



## bluekey88

Sylo said:


> 4. I disagree in someone walking in off the street, coming into a school and saying "teach me how to win tournaments, I don't care about the other stuff". I disagree with them holding, rank unless it partains to the sport aspect of it only. Such as what was already mentioned, similar to fencing.
> 
> 
> Basically I want to see people learning martial for the SD and art part of it first, sport as an extracurriculur activity. Thats just what I am used to. There are unfortunately, no right or wrong answers here.. only opinions.
> 
> I mean no offense to anyone who chooses to skip the tradition, and go straight to scoring points at tournaments. If thats how you choose to train, then all I can do is disagree with you and move on. Noone every agrees with everyone about everything. If we did, we'd be a dull bunch.


 
I guess in my 20 some odd years studying 5 different arts...I've never seen this.  I've never seen a place where oyu can walk in off teh street and ONLY study competition sparring.  I know there are TKD schools that focus on the sports competition stuff...but typically you don't walk in there as a rank beginner.  Nope, they scout the tourneys for prospects and let more traditional schools instill strong basics.  

I guess what I'm saying that the folks at the top of the tkd competition heap are not as one dimensional as you and others amke them out ot be.  I've had the pleasure o fmeeting some of them, training with a few...they are good marial artists who have made a decision to pursue a particular path.  They deserve respect and not derision.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Sylo

bluekey88 said:


> I guess in my 20 some odd years studying 5 different arts...I've never seen this.  I've never seen a place where oyu can walk in off teh street and ONLY study competition sparring.  I know there are TKD schools that focus on the sports competition stuff...but typically you don't walk in there as a rank beginner.  Nope, they scout the tourneys for prospects and let more traditional schools instill strong basics.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying that the folks at the top of the tkd competition heap are not as one dimensional as you and others amke them out ot be.  I've had the pleasure o fmeeting some of them, training with a few...they are good marial artists who have made a decision to pursue a particular path.  They deserve respect and not derision.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



thats what I am saying. I respect those people 100%. I do not have any problem with people competing. For some reason though much like everything else around this horsecrud town.. people like to skip straight to the "good stuff". 

We've had people come in wanting to learn MMA.. and scoff at us when we explain to them what our school teaches.

We've had people come in (had one today) wanting to put their gymnastics daughters in so that they can learn some kicks and punches for sparring and forms. The one today was sorely dissappointed when Mr instructor told him we didn't have an XMA program, and that she would have to follow the curriculum just like everyone else.

I think I need to move.


----------



## BrandonLucas

I think that somewhere along the way we have all gotten off the original topic of this thread:  keeping your hands up while sparring.

I don't agree with the way sport TKD gamers keep their hands down while they spar, but in their ruleset, I guess it allows them to play the game easier and more efficiently.

Would I teach this method in SD applications?  NO!  Would I advise other martial artists to keep their hands down to stay faster in anything OTHER than the SPORT aspect?  Never.

I just worry that people that get wrapped up in the sport are going to train to keep their hands down, and when the time comes to defend themselves, they may try to keep their hands up to protect themselves, but it won't be as "second-nature" as it would for people who train that way everyday.  I'm not saying that they won't be smart enough to defend themselves, but, we all know that if you don't train correctly, problems can occur.

As far as the sport aspect goes, as Sylo has stated before, I don't disagree with competing in a martial art.  I do disagree with the ruleset that's in place, but, to be fair, it is the safest way to compete with minimal injuries.

I just imagine TKD tournements should be like "Best of the Best".  Or, for that matter, to make it more modern, watch Chuck Norris's World Combat League.  It's pretty much full contact, but I think the "Best of the Best" scenerio would work best.

I also disagree with only training in TKD to compete in it.  To me, it's just like the MMA mindset that you are only there to compete, and there's no other reason to learn a martial art.  

To me, TKD has always taught me how to avoid fights, it makes me feel good physically, mentally, and emotionally, and takes away the need to prove myself to others.  It's not about competing all the time.  That's not to say that martial artists shouldn't compete.  But I don't think that it should be the reason anyone would join.

Now, as far as the blackbelt thing goes, I have ran into several "gamer" TKD practitioners that knew none of the poomse, the taeguk, or any of the rest of the traditional side of the martial art, and yet, they had a 3rd or 4th degree blackbelt around their waist.  And, when asked how long it took them to achieve the rank of 3rd degree black belt, their response was "Oh, about 2 years or so.  I had to work quickly so that I could get out on the tournement circuit and compete.  If I win enough tounements, I could get picked to be on team Paul Mitchel."

A blackbelt is not something that should be taken lightly, and yet, some of the people who see TKD as a sporting game and nothing more seem to acheieve the highest levels of the martial art quicker than it took me to get to red belt.  Notice I said some of the people.  I'm not saying that all gamers are this way, but, unfortunately, this is what people (that I've talked to that are not martial artists in any way, and not all from the area that I live) think of when they hear TKD.  I'm not saying that ALL people think this, but alot of people that I have personally talked to think that.  And Im also not saying that the public has any knowledge of TKD as a sport and not a martail art, or viceversa, or that everyone knows what it is, or that no one knows what it is.  I'm saying that people that I have spoken with that do not practice martial arts and do not follow TKD regularly know of it as a sport.  

And if only a few people think that about it in those terms, then it could potentially spread.  And then we're left with a dying martial art that has turned completely into a sport competition that's watered down.  But that's only what COULD happen.  I'm not saying that it will.

It just worries me.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Sylo said:


> I'm not trying to make enemies here. We all have opinions. Mine are not wrong, and neither are yours. Yeah I kind of have this pent up aggression against sports. Why? Because I live in redneckville where the world revolves around football and basketball. Noone cares if you have an education, just as long as you can do either of those 2 things very well. Our entire city shuts down during football season. So yeah I kind of have an animosity towards sports..
> 
> However, that animosity has nothing to do with my comments on this subject. You guys are either missing my point all together, or just wanting have a reason to discredit anything I say.


Actually, I think you've made a lot of good points in a lot of your posts.  I do appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Daniel


----------



## Sylo

Celtic Tiger said:


> Actually, I think you've made a lot of good points in a lot of your posts.
> 
> In any case, living in redneck-ville isn't the only place where sports are king. I live in what was once redneckville and is now suburbia (Grew up with farms all around me, but the farmers harvested houses over the years). Yuppie suburbanites bring the same sort of nonsense to their kids football games that they do to the dojang. Education is not the problem. In fact, there are a lot of people who have more education than sense. And plenty with more money than sense.
> 
> Every level of social strata has its own peculiarities and presents its own unique challenges to the MA community. Believe me, sometimes I'd rather have redneckville than suburbia.
> 
> Daniel


 
Yeah, in the end I think they 2 can coincide. You can control some things, but location is not one of them.. there are different types of people everywhere.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Yowch!  I edited my own post and accidentally deleted most of it!

Daniel


----------



## slingblade01

BrandonLucas said:


> Would I teach this method in SD applications?


No one in this entire thread has suggested such a thing.

Besides, the need to block kicks in SD is virtually non-existent



> Now, as far as the blackbelt thing goes, I have ran into several "gamer" TKD practitioners that knew none of the poomse, the taeguk, or any of the rest of the traditional side of the martial art, and yet, they had a 3rd or 4th degree blackbelt around their waist. And, when asked how long it took them to achieve the rank of 3rd degree black belt, their response was "Oh, about 2 years or so. I had to work quickly so that I could get out on the tournement circuit and compete. If I win enough tounements, I could get picked to be on team Paul Mitchel."


This is misleading since Team PM only sponsors sport karate not TKD.


----------



## slingblade01

bluekey88 said:


> I guess in my 20 some odd years studying 5 different arts...I've never seen this. I've never seen a place where oyu can walk in off teh street and ONLY study competition sparring. I know there are TKD schools that focus on the sports competition stuff...but typically you don't walk in there as a rank beginner. Nope, they scout the tourneys for prospects and let more traditional schools instill strong basics.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying that the folks at the top of the tkd competition heap are not as one dimensional as you and others amke them out ot be. I've had the pleasure o fmeeting some of them, training with a few...they are good marial artists who have made a decision to pursue a particular path. They deserve respect and not derision.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 
Folks, read it again. This has been my experience as well.

I couldn't had said this any better. (derision - now that's a $5 word :wink2: )


----------



## BrandonLucas

First, there is no disrespect meant to anyone, whether they are a "gamer" who attends tournements or not.

Secondly, I was only using Team Paul Mitchell as an example of the mentality of the "gamers" that I have come in contact with.  If this is misleading, then I appologize, but I do not keep up with these tourney teams, and was merely throwing the only name that I could think of out there.  So, instead of Team Paul Mitchell, let's go with Team (insert popular TKD team).  Better?

Thirdly, I have, in fact, had to block kicks in fights before.  Not only that, but keeping your hands up in SD applications and situations assists in blocking punches as well.  Either way, it would make absolutely no sense at all to go into a SD situation or fight in general with your hands down.  I'm merely trying to state that if you train with your hands down constantly, that's the way you're going to be used to doing things.  That's not to say that a person trained that way would definitely fight that way, but we all know that if you train incorrectly long enough, the effects can be damaging.

Fourthly, it doesn't matter whether anyone has suggested that they would actually teach the hands down method or not.  I'm saying that it's something that I don't agree with, and that I'll never teach.

I have had experience with "gamers" that try to say that they are able to use what they know in SD applications and scenerios, and I've proven them wrong.  These people tend to get angry when they realize that they can't walk into a fight with their hands hanging at their sides, and it angers me that they are being taught that way.

I'm not saying that everyone who takes from WTF or who spars in these tourneys is this way.  This is the experience that I've had, and I can only speak from my experience.  

Again, no disrespect is intended towards ANYONE.  Gamer or martial artist.  I respect everyone equally until they give me a reason to not respect them.


----------



## terryl965

BrandonLucas said:


> First, there is no disrespect meant to anyone, whether they are a "gamer" who attends tournements or not.
> 
> Secondly, I was only using Team Paul Mitchell as an example of the mentality of the "gamers" that I have come in contact with. If this is misleading, then I appologize, but I do not keep up with these tourney teams, and was merely throwing the only name that I could think of out there. So, instead of Team Paul Mitchell, let's go with Team (insert popular TKD team). Better?
> 
> Thirdly, I have, in fact, had to block kicks in fights before. Not only that, but keeping your hands up in SD applications and situations assists in blocking punches as well. Either way, it would make absolutely no sense at all to go into a SD situation or fight in general with your hands down. I'm merely trying to state that if you train with your hands down constantly, that's the way you're going to be used to doing things. That's not to say that a person trained that way would definitely fight that way, but we all know that if you train incorrectly long enough, the effects can be damaging.
> 
> Fourthly, it doesn't matter whether anyone has suggested that they would actually teach the hands down method or not. I'm saying that it's something that I don't agree with, and that I'll never teach.
> 
> I have had experience with "gamers" that try to say that they are able to use what they know in SD applications and scenerios, and I've proven them wrong. These people tend to get angry when they realize that they can't walk into a fight with their hands hanging at their sides, and it angers me that they are being taught that way.
> 
> I'm not saying that everyone who takes from WTF or who spars in these tourneys is this way. This is the experience that I've had, and I can only speak from my experience.
> 
> Again, no disrespect is intended towards ANYONE. Gamer or martial artist. I respect everyone equally until they give me a reason to not respect them.


 

Excellent post and believe me I agree with alot of what you have to say.


----------



## slingblade01

BrandonLucas said:


> First, there is no disrespect meant to anyone, whether they are a "gamer" who attends tournements or not.


 
Yet, you repeatedly refer to them in a derogatory fashion as "gamers".

Concerning SD, nobody cares. Most parents of potential students are looking respect, discipline, or exercise.

If I were so paranoid about SD, I certainly wouldn't be practicing TKD.

You obvisously don't compete in WTF sparring (the title of this thread), so why are you trying to sell your bad advice to those who do?

Try starting another thread titled "SD sparring - Hands-up or Hands-down?"

I'm sure you'll hear what you want to hear.

Enough.


----------



## Sylo

slingblade01 said:


> Yet, you repeatedly refer to them in a derogatory fashion as "gamers".
> 
> Concerning SD, nobody cares. Most parents of potential students are looking respect, discipline, or exercise.
> 
> If I were so paranoid about SD, I certainly wouldn't be practicing TKD.
> 
> You obvisously don't compete in WTF sparring (the title of this thread), so why are you trying to sell your bad advice to those who do?
> 
> Try starting another thread titled "SD sparring - Hands-up or Hands-down?"
> 
> I'm sure you'll hear what you want to hear.
> 
> Enough.




I don't see how calling them "gamers" is any different than calling an MMA practicioner a "fighter". Different titles for different jobs.

What they do is a game. You can't call them fighters, because they aren't. They are gamers, because what they do requires that they learn a minimalist version of TKD that only includes moves that work under the rules. In this case, its 3-4 kicks and hands down to the side.

The only thing that we are trying to say is that the "sport" side of TKD should be made very clearly seperate from the traditional/SD side. They are apples and oranges. Ranks in one should not be compared to the other. My teacher is a 5th dan under one of Gen. Choi's first students. He knows the art inside and out and has been teaching it for the past 30 years. He'd never be able to do the things that say mango man's daughter can do. But I can bet he knows the art of TKD better than anyone that currently competes. How is it fair to put him on the same level as her, when its obviously 2 different things. WTF competitors (gamers) are very good at what they do. They take a very small part of TKD and capitolize on it, so that they can make it fit the mold of the rules. Its not their fault, more so than it is the ruleset. The ruleset forces them to have to "game" the system in order to compete with everyone else who is. 

I know for a fact that If I tried to compete in those style matches. In order to win, I'd have to break the rules. All they are being taught is how to stay within the confines of the rules, and win. Its not the same thing.

Its 2 different things. They should not be compared as one. 

I respect anyone who takes the time to become good at something. As long as it stays a "sport" and doesn't mesh over into other things. I have no issues with it. 

There will be traditional folks who are amazing, and there will be sport folks who will be good at what they do.


----------



## BrandonLucas

slingblade01 said:


> Yet, you repeatedly refer to them in a derogatory fashion as "gamers".
> 
> Concerning SD, nobody cares. Most parents of potential students are looking respect, discipline, or exercise.
> 
> If I were so paranoid about SD, I certainly wouldn't be practicing TKD.
> 
> You obvisously don't compete in WTF sparring (the title of this thread), so why are you trying to sell your bad advice to those who do?
> 
> Try starting another thread titled "SD sparring - Hands-up or Hands-down?"
> 
> I'm sure you'll hear what you want to hear.
> 
> Enough.


 
You sound very jaded, and have offered nothing of any use to anyone. And, I'm willing to bet that you are one of the "gamers" that I'm referring to.

I am not using the term "gamer" to be derogatory. It's what people who compete in the "game" are. "Gamers". If this was a full contact tourney, then they would be "fighters"...until they learn how to "game the game", at which point they will become "gamers" as well.

And why on earth would anyone join a martial art if not to learn the SD side of it? 

You are actually correct about the fact that I do not compete in WTF competition. And, yet, I don't see how that's relevant, as I am a 2nd degree black belt in ITF TKD. People post on here all the time that do not have experience in WTF. If you insist on calling the Olympic style of sparring TKD, then I have every right to post on these forums. 

Maybe you should go back and actually READ some of the other posts in this thread instead of posting on here like you know what you're talking about.

I think you're on these forums to pick fights. I would suggest either you start contributing to these threads with some substance, or let the grown-ups talk.


----------



## kaizasosei

anyone with two good feet and enough funk can learn to kick like a tiger.

wtf.  block  no block....what's the big deal?  kick good no block.

block good no kick....  where's the mystery? block bad kick bad no good.



j


----------



## Sylo

kaizasosei said:


> anyone with two good feet and enough funk can learn to kick like a tiger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j


 
you lost me after this.


----------



## bluekey88

BrandonLucas said:


> You sound very jaded, and have offered nothing of any use to anyone. And, I'm willing to bet that you are one of the "gamers" that I'm referring to.
> 
> I am not using the term "gamer" to be derogatory. It's what people who compete in the "game" are. "Gamers". If this was a full contact tourney, then they would be "fighters"...until they learn how to "game the game", at which point they will become "gamers" as well.
> 
> And why on earth would anyone join a martial art if not to learn the SD side of it?
> 
> You are actually correct about the fact that I do not compete in WTF competition. And, yet, I don't see how that's relevant, as I am a 2nd degree black belt in ITF TKD. People post on here all the time that do not have experience in WTF. If you insist on calling the Olympic style of sparring TKD, then I have every right to post on these forums.
> 
> Maybe you should go back and actually READ some of the other posts in this thread instead of posting on here like you know what you're talking about.
> 
> I think you're on these forums to pick fights. I would suggest either you start contributing to these threads with some substance, or let the grown-ups talk.


 
Le5t's clear up a cpuple of misconceptions.  I'm wtf stylist...and I am certainly a fighter.  I'm a good enough fighter that I can adjust my technique, tactics and strategy to meet the task at hand, be it a competition, dojang sparring or self-defense situation.

While you don't like the "hands down" , "bouncy" look of olympic sparring...kep in mind the people doing it are good martial artists.  Good enough that they are doing the correct things to persevere in that situation.  What they do in the ring is NOT the same thing as what they might do in a self-defense.  

Furthermore, you seem to have the misconception that olympic style sparring is not full contact.  Welp, last I checked, it is not only only full contact sparring...but it is also continuous sparring.  In other words, when I am in the ring, I'm kicking as hard as I can repeatedly until the buzzer sounds.  It is not semi-contact (ITF), or point stop-light/medium contact (many style of sport karate).  It is full contatc...thus all the protective gearl.

You say that to compete in an olympic style match you would have to break the rules.  With all due repect, that's ridiculous.  Are you saying that you lack the control to fight wiht the confines of a given ruleset?  What if you were in an SD situation where you were dealing with a drunken friend who decided to "test your mettle"?  would you just take his head off and leave him broekn and beleding on the ground becuase that's how you train?  Be clear, I'm NOT saying that is what you WOULD do...I'm making the analogy that a good martial artist is able to excercise control and has the skill to modify his technique to mee tthe demands of ANY situation.

What one sees in olympic sparring is nothing mre than martial artists modifying their tevchnique to meet the demands of the rules.  You might not like the rules, but don't be so narrow minded as to think that those of us that choose to abide by them are also bound by them in every other aspect of the art.

it is clear that you really don't know much about this aspect of TKD.  Before making further criticisms, go try a few competitions, maybe try some classes out at a good WTF school.  You may be surprised.  You will find serious individuals who work hard, train hard and have a true desire to master the art if TKD...even while pursuing success in the sport aspect of it.  You will find these martial artists to be strong, fast and cagey fighters.  Ones who can adjust and adapt to be dabngerous not only in the ring but on the street as well.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Sylo

bluekey88 said:


> Le5t's clear up a cpuple of misconceptions. I'm wtf stylist...and I am certainly a fighter. I'm a good enough fighter that I can adjust my technique, tactics and strategy to meet the task at hand, be it a competition, dojang sparring or self-defense situation.
> 
> While you don't like the "hands down" , "bouncy" look of olympic sparring...kep in mind the people doing it are good martial artists. Good enough that they are doing the correct things to persevere in that situation. What they do in the ring is NOT the same thing as what they might do in a self-defense.
> 
> Furthermore, you seem to have the misconception that olympic style sparring is not full contact. Welp, last I checked, it is not only only full contact sparring...but it is also continuous sparring. In other words, when I am in the ring, I'm kicking as hard as I can repeatedly until the buzzer sounds. It is not semi-contact (ITF), or point stop-light/medium contact (many style of sport karate). It is full contatc...thus all the protective gearl.
> 
> You say that to compete in an olympic style match you would have to break the rules. With all due repect, that's ridiculous. Are you saying that you lack the control to fight wiht the confines of a given ruleset? What if you were in an SD situation where you were dealing with a drunken friend who decided to "test your mettle"? would you just take his head off and leave him broekn and beleding on the ground becuase that's how you train? Be clear, I'm NOT saying that is what you WOULD do...I'm making the analogy that a good martial artist is able to excercise control and has the skill to modify his technique to mee tthe demands of ANY situation.
> 
> What one sees in olympic sparring is nothing mre than martial artists modifying their tevchnique to meet the demands of the rules. You might not like the rules, but don't be so narrow minded as to think that those of us that choose to abide by them are also bound by them in every other aspect of the art.
> 
> it is clear that you really don't know much about this aspect of TKD. Before making further criticisms, go try a few competitions, maybe try some classes out at a good WTF school. You may be surprised. You will find serious individuals who work hard, train hard and have a true desire to master the art if TKD...even while pursuing success in the sport aspect of it. You will find these martial artists to be strong, fast and cagey fighters. Ones who can adjust and adapt to be dabngerous not only in the ring but on the street as well.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 

I don't know about anyone else. But, I don't have a problem with  modifying things to fit the ruleset. Fitting the ruleset is different from the "gaming" we are talking about. I could enter a WTF tourney and follow the rules, no hands to the face.. etc. But, what I couldn't do.. is game the system. So I'd never win. Not everyone does what we are talking about. I've sparred some really good WTF guys before, so I am not discrediting WTF. I'm discrediting the people who don't learn "TKD" they learn to "compete" only. 

If they are all just following the ruleset, then there are no gripes from me. I don't think my issue is just with TKD, more so with sport martial arts in general. Humans seem to find a way to min/max everything they do. They'll always figure out cheap ways to have an advantage over someone else. Once everyone figures out how to do this, it just looks bad. 

There are some very good WTF people out there, as there is in all styles of martial arts. I just want to see the people who are only training to "game" the system.. weeded out. If I see another blitz punch or clinch.. I'm gonna puke.


----------



## kaizasosei

It would be good if we could really try to understand where the others opinions are coming from before going to any great lengths...

after reading your comments in the last post,Sylo, i can really relate to some of the stuff you say.  i myself, also sometimes dislike socalled specialists that advance only for profit or glory.  especially in a world like that of the martial arts where technically, bad martial arts is practically a health hazard, not to mention a something of a farse.

however, if i may add a word of advice from my own experience; at the end of the day, you are your own being.  noone can own you or taint you.  even if they are tainted, you should be all the more happy that you are not.  not to take pleasure in the error of others but at least not to lose too much sleep over it.
on the other hand, you must remain grounded in your center so that you draw them into your world not the other way around.  then, the trick or the challenge is to do this in good spirits.  

j


----------



## bluekey88

I can understand that...but it'll never happen.  That's human nature.  In all endeavors, there will be those who look to win by any means necessary.

That's the way of the world.  Best I can do is train hard, work within the rules...you may call it gaming...I call it adapting.  for instance, before they changed the hogu...the old style hogus were a little thinner up top near the collar bone.  Anybody jammed me, I'd punch them as hard as i could there...never scored a point, but it sure hurt like hell.  That was usually enough to get my opponent to back off right into my kicking range.  It's all legal and I don't see that as cheating.  it doesn't work as well because of the way the equipment is now.

I guess where we disagree is with the percentage of WTF people who are ONLY sport oriented and who do not study the complete art.  i think the percentage is low (much less than 50%) while i get the sense that you seem to feel the percentage is higher (more than 50%).  I've not done the hard research to figure out where the truth lies.  All i can say is taht whre i live around OPhiladelphia, we've got lots of good WTF schools that have strong competition programs, but their overall curriculum is complete and all their students do everything.  I allso know that there are schools that are sports only...but like I said earlier, they recruit, you don't get in unless you've proved yourself elsewhere.

Peace,
Erik


----------



## BrandonLucas

bluekey88 said:


> Le5t's clear up a cpuple of misconceptions. I'm wtf stylist...and I am certainly a fighter. I'm a good enough fighter that I can adjust my technique, tactics and strategy to meet the task at hand, be it a competition, dojang sparring or self-defense situation.
> 
> While you don't like the "hands down" , "bouncy" look of olympic sparring...kep in mind the people doing it are good martial artists. Good enough that they are doing the correct things to persevere in that situation. What they do in the ring is NOT the same thing as what they might do in a self-defense.
> 
> Furthermore, you seem to have the misconception that olympic style sparring is not full contact. Welp, last I checked, it is not only only full contact sparring...but it is also continuous sparring. In other words, when I am in the ring, I'm kicking as hard as I can repeatedly until the buzzer sounds. It is not semi-contact (ITF), or point stop-light/medium contact (many style of sport karate). It is full contatc...thus all the protective gearl.
> 
> You say that to compete in an olympic style match you would have to break the rules. With all due repect, that's ridiculous. Are you saying that you lack the control to fight wiht the confines of a given ruleset? What if you were in an SD situation where you were dealing with a drunken friend who decided to "test your mettle"? would you just take his head off and leave him broekn and beleding on the ground becuase that's how you train? Be clear, I'm NOT saying that is what you WOULD do...I'm making the analogy that a good martial artist is able to excercise control and has the skill to modify his technique to mee tthe demands of ANY situation.
> 
> What one sees in olympic sparring is nothing mre than martial artists modifying their tevchnique to meet the demands of the rules. You might not like the rules, but don't be so narrow minded as to think that those of us that choose to abide by them are also bound by them in every other aspect of the art.
> 
> it is clear that you really don't know much about this aspect of TKD. Before making further criticisms, go try a few competitions, maybe try some classes out at a good WTF school. You may be surprised. You will find serious individuals who work hard, train hard and have a true desire to master the art if TKD...even while pursuing success in the sport aspect of it. You will find these martial artists to be strong, fast and cagey fighters. Ones who can adjust and adapt to be dabngerous not only in the ring but on the street as well.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 

First, this is the type of response that I can respect, and I thank you for responding in this manner.

As I have stated in one of my previous posts, I can only go on the experience that I have had, and that I'm not trying to make blanket statements about WTF or the Olympic style.  I have, in fact, sparred several WTF practitioners, and they were sparring under our school's ruleset, which is full contact, hands to the head.

When I sparred these guys, it took little to no effort to frustrate them and "win" the sparring match (we sparred during class, and there is no clear winner in sparring matches in class, but you can pretty much tell if you've gotten the upper hand in the match).  After the initial sparring matches with them, 2 of the guys wanted to spar me again, and were actually trying to hurt me to prove a point.  The outcome of those matches was the same as the first.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that they didn't hurt when they connected kicks.  The problem was that they were trained to spar with their hands down because they thought that this made them faster.  With these WTF guys that I sparred, it was basically the same thing you're talking about.  They didn't have the knowledge of how to spar in a different ruleset.

I have tried to spar doing the hands-down method, and I've eaten more than 1 kick to the face.  I know that I'm not good at trying to spar within the ruleset of the Olympic style.  I like to punch to the head.  It's effective.  I'm not saying that I don't have the control to adapt to other rulesets.  I just don't understand what the point of that ruleset is...

The sparring competition is supposed to simulate combat.  That is what it was designed for.  By eliminating points being scored by hand techniques to the head, it no longer simulates realistic combat.  It now resembles a game with rules.  

The rules are exploited when competitors in the competition discover that it's hard to kick someone in the head if you rub your chest protector against your opponent's chest protector.  Not only that, but if points are not awarded for the use of any kind of hand techniques, then why put your hands up at all?  

So now, the kicks are coming hard and fast, but it's deemed better to hop out of the way and counter-kick than to block the kick and counter with a different technique that would expend less engergy and be more effective to end the competition.

Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I do not see any other martial arts in the Olympics that compete in totally different manners than they train.  I'm not saying that someone competing in the Olympics wouldn't train this way, but you and I both are involved in TKD, and yet, our styles are obviously different.  

Watch the Judo competition in the Olympics.  The way they compete is the same as the traditional Judo schools that I've seen teach.

Why should TKD be different?


----------



## Sylo

bluekey88 said:


> I can understand that...but it'll never happen. That's human nature. In all endeavors, there will be those who look to win by any means necessary.
> 
> That's the way of the world. Best I can do is train hard, work within the rules...you may call it gaming...I call it adapting. for instance, before they changed the hogu...the old style hogus were a little thinner up top near the collar bone. Anybody jammed me, I'd punch them as hard as i could there...never scored a point, but it sure hurt like hell. That was usually enough to get my opponent to back off right into my kicking range. It's all legal and I don't see that as cheating. it doesn't work as well because of the way the equipment is now.
> 
> I guess where we disagree is with the percentage of WTF people who are ONLY sport oriented and who do not study the complete art. i think the percentage is low (much less than 50%) while i get the sense that you seem to feel the percentage is higher (more than 50%). I've not done the hard research to figure out where the truth lies. All i can say is taht whre i live around OPhiladelphia, we've got lots of good WTF schools that have strong competition programs, but their overall curriculum is complete and all their students do everything. I allso know that there are schools that are sports only...but like I said earlier, they recruit, you don't get in unless you've proved yourself elsewhere.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


 
I think your probably right, which is why I've changed my stance slightly to include sport martial arts, and not just TKD. TKD isn't the only place you see this happening. The whole thing about competition schools not wanting you, unless they hand pick you... based on what?

I'm guessing tournament wins right?

I guess my best bet is to worry about me, and my training and focus on what I want to do and not worry about everyone else. I want to open a school and teach, and maybe do a small amount of competing in the mean time.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

BrandonLucas said:


> You sound very jaded, and have offered nothing of any use to anyone. And, I'm willing to bet that you are one of the "gamers" that I'm referring to.
> 
> I am not using the term "gamer" to be derogatory. It's what people who compete in the "game" are. "Gamers". If this was a full contact tourney, then they would be "fighters"...until they learn how to "game the game", at which point they will become "gamers" as well.
> 
> And why on earth would anyone join a martial art if not to learn the SD side of it?
> 
> You are actually correct about the fact that I do not compete in WTF competition. And, yet, I don't see how that's relevant, as I am a 2nd degree black belt in ITF TKD. People post on here all the time that do not have experience in WTF. If you insist on calling the Olympic style of sparring TKD, then I have every right to post on these forums.
> 
> Maybe you should go back and actually READ some of the other posts in this thread instead of posting on here like you know what you're talking about.
> 
> I think you're on these forums to pick fights. I would suggest either you start contributing to these threads with some substance, or let the grown-ups talk.


Brandon, I really enjoy a lot of your posts, but please don't assume what others here are.  Just as others shouldn't assume such of you.

Anyway, on the subject of gamers, the term player is generally what I see used by trade publications when refering to sport taekwondoist.  Which is appropriate; athletes are generally called players of whatever game they participate in.  When you say gamer, I immediately think of tabletop RPG (guilty on that count), video games (guilty there too), or PC gaming (haven't gotten too into that yet).  Certainly, I don't consider the term insulting to a taekwondoist, but usually they're called players.  

Regarding people taking martial arts classes for reasons other than self defense, sadly, lots of people do, and it isn't limited to KKW/WTF schools.  There are plenty of school owners in all federations who are happy to make a buck (or hundreds) off of that crowd.  

Lots of people just want their kids to be disciplined, exercised, and watched by someone else after school and during the day in the summer.  

Lots of adults just want some cardio and to be around healthy people (not just physically healthy, but people leading a healthy lifestyle, which is generally associated with the martial arts).

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas

Thank you for clearing alot of that up.  And you're right, I shouldn't assume anything about anyone.  

I was only using the term "gamer" because, for some reason, the word player wouldn't come to my mind.  It makes me think of someone playing something like World of Warcraft as well.  Player should be the correct term, and is not a bad name to call someone.  Not that I meant "gamer" to be derogatory at all, but you're right.

I appologize for the trashiness of my prior post.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Brandon, 

I think that with near complete sport at one end and the uber-traditional at the other, with every permutation in between, the confusion over terminology is almost unavoidable.

Just for the record, I don't find the term gamer derogatory at all; the sport crowd is very adamant that it is a game when criticisms regarding lack of SD in the sport are raised, so gamer is a descriptively correct term in my opinion.

Daniel


----------



## Sylo

Celtic Tiger said:


> Brandon,
> 
> I think that with near complete sport at one end and the uber-traditional at the other, with every permutation in between, the confusion over terminology is almost unavoidable.
> 
> Just for the record, I don't find the term gamer derogatory at all; the sport crowd is very adamant that it is a game when criticisms regarding lack of SD in the sport are raised, so gamer is a descriptively correct term in my opinion.
> 
> Daniel


 

this is it in a nutshell.

we just want some seperation. We know that its almost impossible to achieve, but one can dream right?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I'm going to jump back on my fencing comparison again, Sylo.  Rather than separation, we could always do what they do in fencing; three distinct weapons each with their own style: foil, epee, and sabre.

Foil is much like WTF sparring in terms of target; thrusts to  the torso and head excepting the back of the head.  Epee allows you to strike via thrust anywhere except the back of the head, while sabre is everything above the waist excepting the back of the head, with thrusts and cuts.  Strategies are very different for the three weapons.

Some fencers compete in two, sometimes all three, but generally, they have a preference and stick to it in competition.  

So why not three different events?  WTF style sparring, light contact continuous (ITF style?) and point/stop sparring (ATA?).  Each favors training in their style of origin, each focuses on a different aspect of taekwondo.  

Daniel


----------



## zDom

Celtic Tiger said:


> I'm going to jump back on my fencing comparison again, Sylo.  Rather than separation, we could always do what they do in fencing; three distinct weapons each with their own style: foil, epee, and sabre.
> 
> Foil is much like WTF sparring in terms of target; thrusts to  the torso and head excepting the back of the head.  Epee allows you to strike via thrust anywhere except the back of the head, while sabre is everything above the waist excepting the back of the head, with thrusts and cuts.  Strategies are very different for the three weapons.
> 
> Some fencers compete in two, sometimes all three, but generally, they have a preference and stick to it in competition.
> 
> So why not three different events?  WTF style sparring, light contact continuous (ITF style?) and point/stop sparring (ATA?).  Each favors training in their style of origin, each focuses on a different aspect of taekwondo.
> 
> Daniel




Better yet would be something similar in which the "match" consists of three rounds: one round each of differing rule sets.

Then the results might be more representative of which competitor is the best martial artist and require competitors to train a more rounded curriculum.


----------



## slingblade01

The proper term today is Athlete while palyer is still globally accepted.

Thanks Daniel and Erik for the patience.


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## BrandonLucas

I wouldn't object to seeing the 3 different types seperated in one tournement, or even in the same match with 3 different rounds.

I just don't understand why we're taught these effective hand techniques, and then asked that we not use them to compete with.  I remember the analogy used earlier about not being given the right tools...I think it's more of a case of we're given the hammer and nails, but told that we can only use the nails.

Just my opinion.

On a side note, I can agree that not using hand techniques to the head increases your kicking range and ability, so there is SOME effectiveness to it.  I still hold to the fact that you should compete how you train.


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## Sylo

slingblade01 said:


> The proper term today is Athlete while palyer is still globally accepted.
> 
> Thanks Daniel and Erik for the patience.



Cool, player it is.

No disrespect to anyone that thought we meant offense by using "Gamer". I'm a gamer, when it comes to alot of things. World of Warcraft is a guilty pleasure of mine.

I think we might all possibly be close to agreement now.

I think ITF, WTF, and ATA all have things in common and all have things they can learn from each other. I actually my like to try visiting a WTF and ATA school one day just to see how a class flows. ITF is all I've ever known other than seeing people at competitions. 

I still stand by my stance of not liking to see folks train soley for competition, skipping over all the tradition. But, as many have pointed out.. there seems to be a very small margin of people who do this. Most, have ran the gamut of training the traditional way, and are just wanting to take their skills to the next level.

I think the idea mentioned earlier about having 3 seperate forms of sparring to be judged on might be something they should look at. It would be far more interesting to see IMO. Because, they would have to train harder since it would include more or sometimes less for each type of sparring. It'd be less easy to play the system that way, since you'd have to cross train to be good at all 3 and being REALLY good at just 1 wouldn't get you very far. I love this idea.

Would anyone that attends a WTF school be willing to video tape a session (with permission) so those of us in locations where we don't have those kinds of schools can see what its like, to have a better picture of how things really are.

With that, I've officially made it through 2 weeks of training after coming back from a 6 month hiatus. I think i am finally gonna stick with it this time! Black belt here I come.


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## Twin Fist

you tube is your friend


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## Daniel Sullivan

zDom said:


> Better yet would be something similar in which the "match" consists of three rounds: one round each of differing rule sets.
> 
> Then the results might be more representative of which competitor is the best martial artist and require competitors to train a more rounded curriculum.


Now that would be very cool indeed!

Daniel


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## bluekey88

Well, while I;ve never seen a tournament locally that does ITF rules matches...I have seen some AAU events that have an olympic psarring category (full contact, continuous, pads, etc.) and point-stop (head, foot and hand gear, light contact, non-continuous).  These are always interesting events when we get our athletes there.  

The most ridiculous thing I saw was during the point-stop event.  My son won his first match through sheer speed off the mark and some quick backfists.  Then he ended up against a guy who had a good 6 inches on him.  This guy would just reach out a drop a hammer fist on the top of his head (think whack a mole).  Personally, I see that as an inferior hand technique to the head...Zak lost that fight as he couldn't over come his opponents superior reacha dn the whack a mole attack.


Bottom line is, no matte rho wyou spar...there will be rules.  these rules have to exist so as to maintain the safety of participants.  The sie ffect of rules is that they create an artificial environment that only approximates actual combat and it leaves room for people to exploit holes in the rules.

Peace,
Erik


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## BrandonLucas

The reason that I can agree to 3 different areas of sparring either within in the same tournement or same match is that it would make it hard for people who simply train to compete to game the game.

If sparring matches consisted of WTF rules the 1st round, ITF the 2nd, and ATA the 3rd, then that would cover all of the rulesets, and competitors would have to train for all 3, eliminating the people who fly through TKD in a year and have their 2nd dan.  If you actually have to work on ALL aspects of the martial art, then that would take out some of the shortcuts alot of these people who compete take.

Sure, they could still spar a round with their hands down and rub chestprotectors together, but in the next round, they better learn to cover up.  So while they could game the game to win a round, that wouldn't be enough to win the match.


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## TKDHermit

*Just sharing the ongoings for Kukkiwon TKD in Singapore*

In Singapore [talking about Kukkiwon style here - WTF is not a style of TKD, it's just a tournamenting style], and especially for testing to Chodan and above, our poomsae and technique must be hell accurate. And for the sparring part, if u're only gonna spam round kicks u're gonna get scolded. The examiners expect to see a variation of kicks and tactics like sliding in/out, sidestepping, switchin, of course, according to the situation.

There was some mention about poomsae not having guards up. In fact Poomsae does have arms-up guards, during the kicking parts. I remember there was a time I was doing Taegeuk 3, while I was kicking, the next move was a punch, so one arm was on the belt, the other was supposed to be a guard, I held it at stomach level and got a "GUARD AT CHEST LEVEL NOT STOMACH LEVEL DON'T LEARN THE BAD HABITS!!!" from my coach, a 6th Dan. For kicks, in which after that kick is a guard or something, both arms up at chest level. We don't test breaking though, only for demo, although Hosinsul is tested at Dan ranks. And of course, we're taught not to swing our arms around for momentum for kicks. Even when kicking in class, keep your arms in guarding position to yourself.

As for tournaments, what you see in the olympics doesn't happen in Singapore. Sparring is continuous, no "YEAH I SCORED" action after each kick, if you do that, you're gonna get scored while u're exclaiming - although a handful would do that. And of course, no running out of the court like some guy did in 2008 Olympics for the last 3 seconds. If that happened here the fighter will be disqualified. Side kicks and back thrusts are scored, but not by pushing alone. There must be impact. Simply put, even if someone does a pure-push sidekick or backthrust, and the recepient flies far like maybe 2-3m or more, it won't count. Even tapping head kicks don't count. And the sound must clear be coming from a legal attack [from the ankle and below]. If the sound regardless of volume came from the contact of the shin guard + hogu, no points. Precision, all or almost all martial arts emphasize that [never heard of one which does not -.-]. Attack using the foot, not the shin, I believe that is how it's taught in traditional TKD?

*Off-topic but responses to previous posts*

I saw someone mentioning WTF sparring rules don't allow fighters to guard with the shins? They couldn't dismiss the possibility that the fighter was chambering for a kick. I guard with my shins most of the time.

Earlier in this topic there was this "chambering axe kick" that supposedly misguided their opponent into moving in for the hit. Isn't that what TKD kicks were supposed to do even in the traditional art? The reason for the chambering as far as I know is to not let your opponent know which kick is going to be executed until it's executed. How wrong is that? Why be a stick-in-the-mud and insist that an axe kick must go straight up straight down? If the target slides off the straight line, does it mean that the kick MUST STILL go straight down and miss its target? Ever heard of Shin-chul Kang? The one who did the Revolution of Kicking, you can find the entire series on youtube. He mentions [not in the series, but in Human Weapon] that for the axe kick, there are 3 BASIC types of lifting your leg up - outside in, inside out, straight up straight down. And please be reminded that a crescent kick has a relatively huge arc. Slight deviation from the straight line to adapt to the situation - is that unacceptable? Keep what is useful, modify what is not.

Surely now we know full situps and deep knee bends [like that of some chinese kungfu whose horse stances are so deep] are bad for health, should we still stick to them because they are traditional? Basically what I think is that, *what is effective from the traditional methods should be kept and used, what is not should be removed/modified - *like how Professor Kano Jigoro, founder of Judo, refined Jujutsu into modern Judo. Speaking of Judo, there was an early post saying Olympic Judo is done like how it's taught. I can tell u it is NOT. Quite a number of olympic Judoka are gaming the game as well, doing sacrifice throws to stall for time, crouching down and slapping away opponent's hands right at the beginning. That is not what Judo was intended to be like.

And I'm kind of baffled why everyone mentions blocking a kick, but not parrying a kick? Surely changing the direction of a moving object is easier than stopping it head-on, and definitely less broken arms -.-

*On topic

*Keep hands down - 2 different types.

1. Keep hands down but guarding the front half of the hogu, it's bloody irritating.

2. Really hands down with no guard, against an impatient/fast enough opponent it will invite a slide-in roundhouse.

It really depends on what you're trying to do. Eespecially so if you can observe your next opponent in his previous matches. Look out for his dominant leg, his temperament, then decide what to do when facing him, when in closed stance and when in open stance.




As for my opinion towards WTF sparring vs SD or other rules, the most important thing is to *identify the setting you're in*, then adapt. The moment you step from your house onto the streets, you must remember that you are on the street, hands up, no holds barred. The moment you transfer from off the mat to on the mat, with hogu and everything on, remember that there are WTF rules to follow, and you adapt. The moment you finish your match, you step off the mat, forget the rules. If you're in a real street SD, no rules, heck just backfist to the throat and kick to the groin or elbow to the temple or whatever crap and get out of there. If there's a weapon pick it up and use it. No time for styles distinction when it comes to SD, whatever works, use it. For me, since I'm fat, the only 3 kicks I will use are front kick, round kick and side kick [blast the knees please], the rest will be upper body work.

To me, there's really no big distinction between styles. TKD has elbow and knee strikes in its traditional form [as taught by GM J H Kim and his students]. No one said only Muay Thai peeps could use knees and elbows. In fact most styles have more or less the same/similar techinques.

To me, a master of TKD should be both proficient in BOTH the sport AND martial art aspects, and basically being able to adapt to any situation.


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## bluekey88

Yep, that's pretty much what I've been saying.


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## terryl965

bluekey88 said:


> Yep, that's pretty much what I've been saying.


 

Me too


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## zDom

To clarify, I never said the the kicks that don't have a downward motion are BAD (in fact, they were nice smacks!) only that they aren't axe kicks.

If they are striking the side of the head with a lateral movement with the side of the heel, they should be called crescent kicks.

If they are strking with an upward and/or forward motion into the face, they are a front or stomping kick (or upward raising kick).

If they are dropping from above onto the target &#8212; with a straight leg OR chambering with the knee but STILL dropping from above: THEN you have an axe kick.

It is all about which direction the kick is coming from, the direction of movement.

Why so touchy/defensive? I thought the kicks were very nice. They hit the opponent with significant force.

But lumping all kicks thrown from an upright position with the knee pointing upward into a catchall name "axe kick" makes differentiating problematic. If they are striking from different directions (upward/forward; side-lateral; downward-from-above) and with different parts of the foot then why NOT use DIFFERENT NAMES for the kicks? 

They ARE different!


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## kaizasosei

i agree with zDom on this.  one needs to differentiate between kicks for the sake of communication.

i think that ax kick and crecent kick are similar in many ways and can morph into one another...either they come from the outside or the inside or they snake in and out or out and in.

j


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## FearlessFreep

kaizasosei said:


> i agree with zDom on this.  one needs to differentiate between kicks for the sake of communication.
> 
> i think that ax kick and crecent kick are similar in many ways and can morph into one another...either they come from the outside or the inside or they snake in and out or out and in.
> 
> j



Which axe kick? ...I know about four   (or more or less depending on your granularity)

To me, the differences are very distinct, but depending on who I'm talking too I hear "axe kick" and I know they mean one or the other.

kinda like the nuance between "spinning/turning backward sidekick" and "back kick"


BUt in re-reading backward, I will agree with zDom that the angle of the attack/weapon is what differentiates an axe kick from...others...(especially a crescent kick )


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## kaizasosei

of course one can do an axekick that goes straight up and straight down provided the opponents body is not blocking.  one would have to start from a distance and the leap/slide in as the leg drops.. which i have seen in tkd competitions
  normaly, if the opponent is close and you tried to get your leg up that high, you'd end up with a groinkick.

j


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## MasterWright

We have had lots of people over the years come in and tell us the same thing. These people have always come away from their first competition with a new respect for our way of sparring.


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## TKDHermit

FearlessFreep said:


> kinda like the nuance between "spinning/turning backward sidekick" and "back kick"


 
GM Lim Teong Chin [general manager of singapore tkd federation, and 8th dan grandmaster, i suppose under KKW because we do KKW style sparring and he attends WTF meetings] once told me that a "back kick" is a generic term for kicks that come out from the back, just like how a 'front kick' is a generic term for a kick coming out from the front. It can be a snap, or a thrust. He identifies the difference between a back/spinning side kick and a back thrust. A spinning side kick is like a side kick with the spin [assuming facing forward, 270 degrees to kick a target infront with body facing the side], while a back thrust [which some know as the mule kick or .. whatever], in which the spin only stops at 180 degrees, with kicking leg chambered close to the supporting knee, and frmo that position thrusting straight out.


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## JadeDragon3

FearlessFreep said:


> This comes up pretty often.
> 
> It's a risk/reward thing.
> 
> (WTF) TKD sparring is done at a greater range than other combat sports that allow hand strikes to the head, so you have greater lead time to block kicks to the head. So hands are often left low to entice the opponent to kick to the head on the feeling that you will be able to block in time if need be but mostly to set up a counter attack.
> 
> With recent rule changes designed to increase offense, I wonder if such tactics will go away.
> 
> Anyway, some (of us) who train Tae Kwon Do primarily as a self-defense martial art train to keep hands up as a defense against more 'real-world' situations as opposed to the sport scenario.


 
TKD should stress more street smart fighting techniques and forget the sport aspect of the art or at least put less emphasis on the sport part then maybe TKD would get a better reputation for being a self defense art rather than a martial art designed for sport competition.


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## ellies

I have never understood why some instructors don't emphasize to their students the difference between self defense and sports.  My instructor insists we keep our hands up, regardless of sport or self defense.


You train how you fight


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## rabbit

If you get close to me you better keep your hands up.


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## bluekey88

Outside the ring, I'll keep that in mind.  Inside the ring, WTF rules, keep your hands up all you want...I'll angle kicks under your arms all fight long.

tactics (as I think isaid earlier in this thread) are largely dependant on context.  Current rules and offic iating style poitn to a lower gaurd leading to greater success than a higher gaurd.  When the rules or the officating change, so will the tactics meant to maximize gains.

Outside the ring, tactics will be different...lgood fighters will adjust.

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965

rabbit said:


> If you get close to me you better keep your hands up.


 
Rabbit there is a big difference playing the game and real SD, when playing Olympic TKD one does not need there hands up. On the street one does remember some teacher teach both ways.


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## dancingalone

ellies said:


> I have never understood why some instructors don't emphasize to their students the difference between self defense and sports.  My instructor insists we keep our hands up, regardless of sport or self defense.
> 
> You train how you fight



I'm on this side of the fence.  Sure, adaptation is a key part of winning any fight, but there is also such a thing as a split second reaction, where your body will instinctively perform certain reactions under duress since you have trained it into your muscle memory through thousands of repetitions.

Fortunately we live in a world where violence is much less common for the average MT participant, but I'm afraid those of you who think one can just consciously flip a switch between sport and SD are depending too much on the good nature of your assailant.  Are most violent encounters over in less than 8 seconds?  Best to get used to keeping your hands up INSTINCTIVELY then.


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## granfire

you mean you can't ask your attacker for a do-over?


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## bluekey88

dancingalone said:


> Fortunately we live in a world where violence is much less common for the average MT participant, but I'm afraid those of you who think one can just consciously flip a switch between sport and SD are depending too much on the good nature of your assailant.


 
If you can train one way, you can train both.  IMO, one crucial aspect of beeing a good warrior is the ability to intelligently adapt.  Bottom line, when I train WTF sparring, I have one set of tactics I use.  When I train SD sparring, a different ( but related) set of tactics), grappling...a third.  I work very hard to internalize all of this so as to be able to access the the right tools at the right time.

In the end, I find that when surprised outside ...my hands come up.  That tells me my instincts are doing the right things at the right time for that circumstance.  That's all I can hope for and tells me I'm on the right track with my training.

Peace,
Erik


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## Kwanjang

I beleive because of the flight or fight instinct built into us all- when that second switch flips to the on (fight) position, any hard core training you have done should be of great benifit to you.

A (well) trained (disciplined) MA'st has a better since of thiming, distance, and knock out power than the average person.

Naturally, if you run into a person who gets in a fight every weekend and wins- Thats a whole different set of variables.

As far as where to keep your hands-I would think a seasoned MA'st would instinctively know where to keep them, as real self defense is very fast and very fluid.


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## AMP-RYU

I personally train with my hands down, because I use more of ying yang motion(circular motion of my arms) to block my opponants attack. Basically countering your opponants opposites to lure them into a motion or attack you can defend easily. I personally only suggest this type of defense to "trained" martial artist as it takes alot longer to perfect than just keeping your hands up. I teach fighting with your hands up, as I would suggest anyone teach, unless primarily used for "game" sparring. Just the way I like to train, not necessarily the "way" for everyone.:asian:


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## Hollywood1340

Those who fight with their hands down, as seen in the following video are among the best in the world. The entire world as determined by the Olympic process. Is it pretty? Would it work in the street? Those are not questions that are going be answered in this arena. But they are the best in the world, there is no denying that. I find it interesting that very few it seems can recognize for what arena certain skills are being used for. The same people that would not fault a boxer for not kicking. Of course Olympic Boxing is nothing to crow about if the last games were any indication. But that's another can of worms.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I agree with you Hollywood, but the hands down at the olympic level is generally not the rant. It is teaching hands down fighting coupled with half hearted training in commercial mini-mall dojangs that hand out blackbelts to any who pay the fee regardless of whether the student has a solid grasp of the material.  Also a lack of many schools in making a clear delineation between SD and sport. 

Daniel


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## bluekey88

Sadly, that's somethung that's not entirely unique to TKD.


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