# Teaching



## kenpo tiger (Aug 19, 2004)

One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching.  When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week.  Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.

We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.

My question is:  since thought and interpretation are encouraged by the nature of kenpo, if a student is taught something by the head instructor which is interpreted differently but within the proper context (as interpreting a particular portion of a form or set with regard to method or direction of attack) by another instructor, should the student refuse instruction (after requesting help) because he thinks it's wrong? Should the instructor in question refuse to continue teaching that student?

Your thoughts, please.


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## Thesemindz (Aug 19, 2004)

I have been taught several things differently by different instructors. The best solution is for the student to perform the material the way the instructor standing in front of him tells him to perform it, and then analyze the situation later, with the same instructor, a different instructor, or on his own, and look for similarities and differences and see what can be learned from the experience. 

I have seen this very situation give rise to all sorts of foolishness on the part of students and instructors alike. The instructor will sometimes get uppity and superior and tell the student "this is how it is and this is how its going to be," that accomplishes nothing positive. At the same time, I know students who simply refused to do as an instructor asked during a group class because, "that's not how Mr. X taught me to do it, so I just ignored the instructor."  This is also silly because the instructor was put in his position for a reason, to ignore what he's trying to share with you because it's new or different is small minded and foolish, not to mention that it undermines his position and disrupts class, possible hindering other students from learning the lesson the instructor is trying to teach.

As an instructor, I tell my students, perform the material this way, if an instructor asks you to do it differently, before you tell him no find out why he thinks its a good idea. Then play with both ways later on. Worst case scenario, you'll find out which one works better for you, and learn a little more about why to do or not do certain things. Best case scenario, you learn two different ways to accomplish the same goal.

Instructors have to be willing to admit they don't have the monopoly on what is right and wrong, and they need to teach their students to be open to many different ideas and how to find the lessons contained within each. Students need to be willing to learn, really learn, and not just to parrot what Mr. X taught them.


-Rob


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## Han-Mi (Aug 20, 2004)

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> I have been taught several things differently by different instructors. The best solution is for the student to perform the material the way the instructor standing in front of him tells him to perform it, and then analyze the situation later, with the same instructor, a different instructor, or on his own, and look for similarities and differences and see what can be learned from the experience.
> 
> I have seen this very situation give rise to all sorts of foolishness on the part of students and instructors alike. The instructor will sometimes get uppity and superior and tell the student "this is how it is and this is how its going to be," that accomplishes nothing positive. At the same time, I know students who simply refused to do as an instructor asked during a group class because, "that's not how Mr. X taught me to do it, so I just ignored the instructor." This is also silly because the instructor was put in his position for a reason, to ignore what he's trying to share with you because it's new or different is small minded and foolish, not to mention that it undermines his position and disrupts class, possible hindering other students from learning the lesson the instructor is trying to teach.
> 
> ...


Very well put.

In my experience teaching, I often come to a situation where a student will say that a different instructor had taught something to them differently. If the instructor is a higher rank I often tell them to do it that way until I can disguss it with them. If we are equally ranked or I am higher rank, I will have the student practice it my way and tell them to ask me about it again after I have had a chance to speek with the other instructor.
 I do not come out and say 1 or the other is wrong. I understand that it is great to learn many perspectives and, it is a good way for a student to develop their own pespective. Often enough we end up saying that the student may do it either way they prefer. And sometimes we learn that we were wrong and that in practical application, what we did will not work. Whatever happens, you should remind the student that you are teaching and that they should respect you and your teachings as you have more experience than them.

Try not to be overbearing though.

K, I'm done.:asian:


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching.  When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week.  Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.
> 
> We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.
> 
> ...



I've run into this countless times.  One inst. teaches one way and the next teaches different from the first, and so on.  While its good to have some uniformity in the way things are taught, its also important to remember that we are all different.  One person may need to adapt the tech. to fit them, due to size, strength, etc. therefore, you'll get a different 'version' of the tech. so to speak.  Is this wrong???  Not at all.  I've had students say to me one person taught this move to me different from what you're doing.  I never try to discredit the other person, but simply tell the student about the variations.  As for refusing instruction.  If thats the case, then they are not keeping an open mind to different variations and possibilities.  Should the inst refuse to teach?  Of course not.

Mike


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 20, 2004)

Two sides to this question. As the instructor I try to teach the standard curriculum as laid out by my instructor.  If a student tells me they learned it differently from another instructor, I acknowlege that there is more than one way to do a technique.  I then ask them to learn it my way but advise them that I will check with our chief instructor and get back to them about the technique.  This allows me to keep the class flowing and gives me opportunities to reevaluate my own knowlege.

As a student I try to learn each variation as I learn it.  As a result I have techniques in which I know what I call the Lee Wedlake, Huk Planas, Frank Trejo and Paul Dye variations.  There is important information buried in each variation.  I review each variation with my Instructor since it is Mr. Hatfield's studio and he deserves to be allowed to choose his standard technique.  I sometimes choose one variation as my own personal favorite.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 20, 2004)

This thread arose from a discussion Pete and I had after class one evening. We are the same rank, but Pete has more time in kenpo than I do, so I enjoy hearing his 'take' on things. He's also quite practical in his application of some of our techniques and often spots the 'hidden moves' buried therein and can easily activate them. This particular topic is one he and I discuss at great length due to our mutual curiousity with the 'what-if' factor. As he's much taller and broader than I am, it's interesting to hear his take on how to apply the final kick at the end of "Unfolding the Dark", since he has longer legs and will most certainly end up in a different position than I will _vis-a-vis_ the attacker once he's on the ground. The same is true for certain forms - where I would have to be in relation to my attacker isn't the same as it is for a taller person.

I enjoy hearing from everyone about how they adapt techniques and forms to suit their body type or the situation because I can only learn and benefit. KT


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## pete (Aug 20, 2004)

that would be environment and target availability


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## Doc (Aug 22, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching.  When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week.  Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.
> 
> We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.
> 
> ...



It is the nature and practice of our University to recognize that a curriculum at a specific level will convey the same information by all members of the teaching staff to students.

It is NEVER the students responsibility to discern what is "correct." It is the responsibility of the teaching staff to insure a consistency in curriculum from student to student, class to class, and level to level as dictated by the final authority or head teacher. If you are encapable of teaching what is deemed correct, you should not be teaching. Descrepencies are addressed and resolved immediately to avoid any confusion among the student body.


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## Feisty Mouse (Aug 22, 2004)

The arts I study are not kenpo, so I post here just as a comment from someone from a different system.  My instructors often go out of their way to point out the different ways of doing the same or similar manoeuvers - "it's the same, but different" is something I started hearing as soon as I started training.  I think it's a great thing to do - although sometimes a student (me) may feel overwhelmed with the flexibility, the drills we do are more simplified, which helps.  But I really like being able to see, and try to understand, how fluid and adaptable a particular response can be.


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## Doc (Aug 22, 2004)

In my experience, when "instructors" spend a considerable amount of time speaking of endleass variables and possibilities, they have very little real information to desseminate. The compexity of basics and their applications are significant enough without introducing alternate material and ideas not actually relevant to the student developing immediate skills and a workable understanding of the core material.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Aug 22, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> that would be environment and target availability


You go get 'em Pete LOL.


DarK LorD


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 22, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> It is the nature and practice of our University to recognize that a curriculum at a specific level will convey the same information by all members of the teaching staff to students.


 Doc what steps do you take in your University to ensure this? What do you do to prepare your teachers for communicating consistent teaching? Do your students have a mentor or intern before taking on their first teaching class? Do you have teaching preparatory classes? How long before the average person in your University begins teaching? 





> It is NEVER the students responsibility to discern what is "correct."


This is very interesting... 





> It is the responsibility of the teaching staff to insure a consistency in curriculum from student to student, class to class, and level to level as dictated by the final authority or head teacher. If you are encapable of teaching what is deemed correct, you should not be teaching. Descrepencies are addressed and resolved immediately to avoid any confusion among the student body.


 Do you ever consider that depending on an individual's body type that the targets or weapons may need to be adapted as a result of the differences in things like weight and height? To give an example from our yellow belt moves...Attacking Mace...If a very tall person is executing this move, because of their long legs, using the instep of the foot to hit the target in the roundhouse kick may not be as practical as having the knee come around to the target. Would you make exceptions for this type of thing in your University, or do you have moves in your curriculum that are intended for all body types to execute in exactly the same way? 

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:


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## Doc (Aug 23, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Doc what steps do you take in your University to ensure this? What do you do to prepare your teachers for communicating consistent teaching? Do your students have a mentor or intern before taking on their first teaching class? Do you have teaching preparatory classes? How long before the average person in your University begins teaching?



All classes are designed to begin the process of becoming a competent teacher. Although there are those who decide they do not want to teach, all individuals are taught from the same perspective. 

All students are mentored by select senior teachers and begin an internship during Course 105 (green) where monitored teaching is mandatory under the scrutiny of all senior staff. All students regardless of tenure or level are subject to correction while they are teaching. I personally monitor all classes and interns consistently, as well as teach.

Those who are successful receive a teaching credential over and above course completion certifications for various levels of proficiency. Teaching credentials much be renewed every other year through a minimum number of class participation hours as a student as well as a teacher demonstrating mastery of the latest curriculum information. Only those with teaching credentials may teach regardless of age, tenure, or rank. All numerical rankings are considered honorary or emeritus depending upon the individual. There are no exception, myself included. The credentials board consists of 6 Deans, the most senior professor, Ed Parker as well as senior consultants (for the higher credentials) from our school department heads from Pentjak, W.A.R., Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, and Qung fu.

During any class session, the most senior credentialed teacher is responsible for quality control of the curriculum. The basic guidelines and all undergrad course materials are available on the floor via computer where all instructors have access.



> Quote:
> It is NEVER the students responsibility to discern what is "correct."
> 
> This is very interesting...
> ...



Perhaps you forgot in the lengthy description of the program you read. It states, Tailoring is usually restricted to Physical Geometry Limitations inherent in the diversity of human anatomy. That is, if a person is too tall for you to reach the prescribed target, there is a tailored adjustment made, but the target change usually conforms to the same meridian for destructive effect, not personal preference. Motion-based-Kenpo Karate is 90% Tailoring, SubLevel Four is the opposite with a 90% structured curriculum because of body effective limitations. Tailoring in the lower division is restricted to diversity in height and girth only, and only as dictated by the senior instructor.



> To give an example from our yellow belt moves...Attacking Mace...If a very tall person is executing this move, because of their long legs, using the instep of the foot to hit the target in the roundhouse kick may not be as practical as having the knee come around to the target.



Bad example. First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep. Second, the knee will not reach the appropriate target, and negate the rest of the technique, not to mention you will be dangerously close to an attacker with them sitting on your centerline. Bad idea.

Everything I write and every conversation I have with a student I remember. Make sure before you ask a question that you have absorbed previously disseminated information with the same degree of seriousness in which it is given. Grades go down and time is diverted.


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 23, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> All classes are designed to begin the process of becoming a competent teacher. Although there are those who decide they do not want to teach, all individuals are taught from the same perspective.


This is interesting. Some people are not comfortable teaching. Do you have many students who don't teach? 



> All students are mentored by select senior teachers and begin an internship during Course 105 (green) where monitored teaching is mandatory under the scrutiny of all senior staff. All students regardless of tenure or level are subject to correction while they are teaching. I personally monitor all classes and interns consistently, as well as teach


This is excellent! 



> Those who are successful receive a teaching credential over and above course completion certifications for various levels of proficiency. Teaching credentials much be renewed every other year through a minimum number of class participation hours as a student as well as a teacher demonstrating mastery of the latest curriculum information. Only those with teaching credentials may teach regardless of age, tenure, or rank. All numerical rankings are considered honorary or emeritus depending upon the individual. There are no exception, myself included.


 These are great standards. The fact that you hold yourself to the same level of review as all other teachers is very progressive. 



> The credentials board consists of 6 Deans, the most senior professor, Ed Parker as well as senior consultants (for the higher credentials) from our school department heads from Pentjak, W.A.R., Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, and Qung fu.


This is interesting. Your students are very lucky to have this.



> During any class session, the most senior credentialed teacher is responsible for quality control of the curriculum. The basic guidelines and all undergrad course materials are available on the floor via computer where all instructors have access.


Doc how did you come to this? The use of computers in martial arts teaching is quite innovative.   




> Bad example. First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep. Second, the knee will not reach the appropriate target, and negate the rest of the technique, not to mention you will be dangerously close to an attacker with them sitting on your centerline. Bad idea.


Thanks for sharing your obsevations on this. 



> Everything I write and every conversation I have with a student I remember. Make sure before you ask a question that you have absorbed previously disseminated information with the same degree of seriousness in which it is given. Grades go down and time is diverted.


:asian: Please see my e-mail.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 23, 2004)

Doc,

You said, _supra_, "First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep."  Please explain.  
I was taught to execute a roundhouse kick by chambering the leg, pivoting my foot, bringing the leg up into 'tabletop' position (head, knee and heel aligned) in order to 'turn the hip over' with the lower portion of the leg cocked, and then extending the lower portion of the leg, striking the target with my shin and instep, retracting and so on to finish executing the kick.

Thank you.  KT


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## Doc (Aug 23, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> You said, _supra_, "First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep."  Please explain.
> I was taught to execute a roundhouse kick by chambering the leg, pivoting my foot, bringing the leg up into 'tabletop' position (head, knee and heel aligned) in order to 'turn the hip over' with the lower portion of the leg cocked, and then extending the lower portion of the leg, striking the target with my shin and instep, retracting and so on to finish executing the kick.
> ...



Kicking with the shin and instep is a basic that prevails mostly in kicking based  sport arts. It is generally not seen in any of the traditional Japanese, Okinawan, or Chinese Arts. Its existence can be traced back to excessive "tailoring" and borrowing of basic from other arts, as well as a focus on competition kicking. 

Although there are a few applications that make this acceptable, in general an extension of the ankle and matatarsals and flexation of the toes will result in significant strain on the hip flexors. Over time hip surgery is guaranteed. If this type of kick must be utilized, it should never be done any higher than the mid-level of your own thigh. At this height it is almost quasi-acceptable but the truth is, that foot position sends an ambiguous message to the body that does not allow it to "set" for the intended activity. 

A kick is defined in SL-4 by Ed Parker Sr. as an "exaggerated step" for a reason. The method you stated will eventually lead to some type of medical intervention. Some really great kickers have had hip replacement surgery because of improper basics and body mechanics. I can think of three prominent names in motion based Kenpo. Sorry but from my understanding it is a VERY, VERY bad idea.


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## Doc (Aug 23, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> This is interesting. Some people are not comfortable teaching. Do you have many students who don't teach?


Yes there are many who don't or no longer teach. The senior Deans in general don't teach anymore after many years of doing so. Of course when you stop teaching your teaching credential lapses and they work primarily as administrators. To go back in the classroom they would have to intern again under a senior instructor and update their understanding of the curriculum. There are others who choose not to teach but the majority look forward to it. However no one is required to teach for advancement. In my view nothing is worse than a "teacher" who doesn't want to be a "teacher."



> These are great standards. The fact that you hold yourself to the same level of review as all other teachers is very progressive.


Progressive yes, but no big deal when you consider I am the final authority on information. It was set in place for when someone else will be the "head" to insure there is never a dictatorial structure when it comes to knowledge and information. Knowledge should prevail, not numerical rank or position.


> Doc how did you come to this? The use of computers in martial arts teaching is quite innovative.


Ed Parker Sr. began using computers from day one of their invention. Ed Parker jr. has kept me abreast of the latest technology and has always facilitated my computer work and kept me reasonable current. To place as much of the curriculum as possible on computer for student teacher access just makes sense if you're serious about standardization and consistency in the dessemination of information.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 23, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Kicking with the shin and instep is a basic that prevails mostly in kicking based sport arts. It is generally not seen in any of the traditional Japanese, Okinawan, or Chinese Arts. Its existence can be traced back to excessive "tailoring" and borrowing of basic from other arts, as well as a focus on competition kicking.
> 
> Although there are a few applications that make this acceptable, in general an extension of the ankle and matatarsals and flexation of the toes will result in significant strain on the hip flexors. Over time hip surgery is guaranteed. If this type of kick must be utilized, it should never be done any higher than the mid-level of your own thigh. At this height it is almost quasi-acceptable but the truth is, that foot position sends an ambiguous message to the body that does not allow it to "set" for the intended activity.
> 
> A kick is defined in SL-4 by Ed Parker Sr. as an "exaggerated step" for a reason. The method you stated will eventually lead to some type of medical intervention. Some really great kickers have had hip replacement surgery because of improper basics and body mechanics. I can think of three prominent names in motion based Kenpo. Sorry but from my understanding it is a VERY, VERY bad idea.


That's very interesting.  Then, if a kick is 'an exaggerated step' - and please excuse my ignorance of Sub-Level 4 principles - then how would the roundhouse kick be executed?  (BTW - I was taught that method in two separate arts, not kenpo, one of which is a hybrid karate based upon shotokan and the other taekwondo.  I'm not saying it's right - it's what I was taught, as stated.)  KT


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## TigerWoman (Aug 23, 2004)

Just an observation, the only problems I have seen or heard of with the instep roundhouse kick was in the foot inself.  Probably from kicking too many stacked/taped together boards or concrete. Some have had foot surgery for broken bones from that. (TKD)

I would also like to hear more details on how this could lead to hip problems.  I've been doing hard roundkicks for 8 years and am 54 and frankly my hips feel better than when I started.  Also, I am quite comfortable kicking anywhere from chest to head level with a round kick, so am quite confused with your statement, Doc. Just wondered, since I don't know you, do you have a medical degree to base that statement on or can you substantiate that in any way?  TW


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> You said, _supra_, "First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep."  Please explain.
> I was taught to execute a roundhouse kick by chambering the leg, pivoting my foot, bringing the leg up into 'tabletop' position (head, knee and heel aligned) in order to 'turn the hip over' with the lower portion of the leg cocked, and then extending the lower portion of the leg, striking the target with my shin and instep, retracting and so on to finish executing the kick.
> ...



This is how I learned to throw the kick as well.  However, keep in mind that the bones of the foot are small.  I can see how kicking a target, be it a bag or a body, with the instep can cause a strain.  You will get much more power throwing the Thai style RH kick with the shin.  In addition, you will also get more power by following through with the kick, rather than doing the snapping motion.

Mike


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 23, 2004)

Thanks Mike.  I also asked the question during my lesson tonight, and the explanation was that in kenpo a roundhouse kick can employ the ball of the foot as the striking surface.  This obviously requires pinpoint accuracy, but I can see the benefit in executing the kick in that manner.  KT


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> That's very interesting.  Then, if a kick is 'an exaggerated step' - and please excuse my ignorance of Sub-Level 4 principles - then how would the roundhouse kick be executed?  (BTW - I was taught that method in two separate arts, not kenpo, one of which is a hybrid karate based upon shotokan and the other taekwondo.  I'm not saying it's right - it's what I was taught, as stated.)  KT



It is not a SubLevel Four Kenpo principle, it is simple human anatomy. The definition comes from Ed parker Sr. The front kick is no different than a roundhouse. The only distinction is trajectory and the relationship between the femur and the hip joint. Other than that they are identical.


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Just an observation, the only problems I have seen or heard of with the instep roundhouse kick was in the foot inself.  Probably from kicking too many stacked/taped together boards or concrete. Some have had foot surgery for broken bones from that. (TKD)
> 
> I would also like to hear more details on how this could lead to hip problems.  I've been doing hard roundkicks for 8 years and am 54 and frankly my hips feel better than when I started.



8 years of part time kicking is not very much. It is a long term issue of improper use that will catch up to those who move incorrectly. It took Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace much longer than that, but it did catch up with them. Some Korean stylists stop doing those kicks when they saw what happened to HapKiDo GM Sea Oh Choi after years of kicking that way. Gene and George Takahashi both Shotokan Masters, along with some very prominent Kenpo people all have had double hip replacement and now know better.



> Also, I am quite comfortable kicking anywhere from chest to head level with a round kick, so am quite confused with your statement, Doc. Just wondered, since I don't know you, do you have a medical degree to base that statement on or can you substantiate that in any way?  TW


I am definitely NOT an MD, but even if I were, without some expertise in martial arts kicking and an examination of the muscles and flexors involved over a period of time, I still wouldn't have any clue so degrees actually mean nothing. Therefore I cannot dirrect you to any doctor or study, nor would it matter if I gave you a laundry list of how the flexation of the foot significantly affects the hips when the leg is raised beyond the hip forcibly. 

My personal background is in anatomical physics, but even that doesn't mean much when you consider any good coach without a degree can tell an athlete when they're doing something wrong. Just good hard information handed down from the experiences of many others and experience over many many years. There are reasons these kicks are only seen in sporting applications, and not real world use. These kicks do not exist in the original Chinese Arts, and neither does the knife edge side kick for a reason.

There is a well known Kenpo stylist whom I told years ago that the execution of a particular movement the way he preferred to do it, was tearing his shoulder apart. He told me it, "felt fine." This was almost twenty years ago. He's had four shoulder surgeries.

Simply, a kick is a walking type movement, and we don't walk on our shins or insteps. But if it "feels fine," keep doing it, but don't forget I shared.


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Thanks Mike.  I also asked the question during my lesson tonight, and the explanation was that in kenpo a roundhouse kick can employ the ball of the foot as the striking surface.  This obviously requires pinpoint accuracy, but I can see the benefit in executing the kick in that manner.  KT



I always thought everything required pinpoint accuracy for proper execution. You have kicks and strikes that don't? And it's not just Kenpo that kicks with the ball of the foot with a roundhouse. All the fighting arts do, and the sporting ars do not. Sometimes methodologies can lost, confused, or misunderstood and subsequently misapplied.


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## MJS (Aug 24, 2004)

Well, regardless of what arts kick with it or not, the fact remains, that things are going to change when shoes are worn.  Yeah, barefoot, its gonna be possible to pull the toes back, but wearing shoes, you're going to be kicking more with the toe area, which can lead to an injury.  The shin provides a much harder and more powerful striking surface.

Mike


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Aug 24, 2004)

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> I have been taught several things differently by different instructors. The best solution is for the student to perform the material the way the instructor standing in front of him tells him to perform it, and then analyze the situation later, with the same instructor, a different instructor, or on his own, and look for similarities and differences and see what can be learned from the experience.
> 
> I have seen this very situation give rise to all sorts of foolishness on the part of students and instructors alike. The instructor will sometimes get uppity and superior and tell the student "this is how it is and this is how its going to be," that accomplishes nothing positive. At the same time, I know students who simply refused to do as an instructor asked during a group class because, "that's not how Mr. X taught me to do it, so I just ignored the instructor."  This is also silly because the instructor was put in his position for a reason, to ignore what he's trying to share with you because it's new or different is small minded and foolish, not to mention that it undermines his position and disrupts class, possible hindering other students from learning the lesson the instructor is trying to teach.
> 
> ...



Very well put I agree with you. I too believe that when you are learning something from someone you should learn it the way they are teaching you at that time. Then later once you have it down pact you can look at modifying it and changing it.

But before going to anyone with something you have learned from them and modified it I would also see how they handle things like this with how they reacted when other people have come to them with the same situation. Some people can take it as constuctive critcism that can better the technique and others might take offense to it.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## The Kai (Aug 24, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> It is not a SubLevel Four Kenpo principle, it is simple human anatomy. The definition comes from Ed parker Sr. The front kick is no different than a roundhouse. The only distinction is trajectory and the relationship between the femur and the hip joint. Other than that they are identical.


I was told that pullig the toes back help peotect the knee joint, especially on air kicks.  Which due to suggestion of fact I can fell a difference in my knee when kicking with instep or ball  of foot.
I guess I can see your point about walking aspects of the foot, but how would the foot position protect the hip.  Please remember I am a layman
Thanks for your time
Todd


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## MJS (Aug 24, 2004)

Actually, anytime you're just kicking or punching air, its important to not go full force, due to the fact that you're not hitting anything.  Even hitting a target, proper form still needs to be used to prevent injury.

Mike


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## TigerWoman (Aug 24, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Simply, a kick is a walking type movement, and we don't walk on our shins or insteps. But if it "feels fine," keep doing it, but don't forget I shared.



Thanks for the info, I respect your opinion and will keep it in mind. TW


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## pete (Aug 24, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> In my experience, when "instructors" spend a considerable amount of time speaking of endless variables and possibilities, they have very little real information to desseminate


yes, that would be counter-productive... however, training to internalize kenpo principles to take well prepared and effective action regardless of endless variable and possibilities is in my most humble opinion what kenpo is all about.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Tailoring is usually restricted to Physical Geometry Limitations inherent in the diversity of human anatomy. That is, if a person is too tall for you to reach the prescribed target, there is a tailored adjustment made, but the target change usually conforms to the same meridian for destructive effect, not personal preference. Motion-based-Kenpo Karate is 90% Tailoring, SubLevel Four is the opposite with a 90% structured curriculum because of body effective limitations


.
sounds like adjusting for available targets.  in kenpo tiger's case, following through with the kick to the target as she was taught would not have worked in that given scenario.  3 choices: (1) get closer to the target (bad choice in this case, it would be forcing the technique and relinquishing positional advantage), (2) eliminate the kick (ok, maybe... depending on ability to exit), (3) change the target (best choice)... unfortunately, not knowlegeable enough, yet, regarding meridians and TCM to make that type of selection.  

i know that i am not learning sub-level four, since doc is the only one who teaches it, but have never heard my kenpo referred to as "motion-based".  is this a term for all "non-sl4", or specific style(s) of kenpo? 

90% tailoring just sounds excessive...



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> In my view nothing is worse than a "teacher" who doesn't want to be a "teacher."


or a "student" that doesn't want to learn...



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> if you're serious about standardization...


that's a big *"IF"*

as always, doc, its a privledge to have your contributions to this board, and our collective development in the martial arts.

pete


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 24, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I always thought everything required pinpoint accuracy for proper execution. You have kicks and strikes that don't? And it's not just Kenpo that kicks with the ball of the foot with a roundhouse. All the fighting arts do, and the sporting ars do not. Sometimes methodologies can lost, confused, or misunderstood and subsequently misapplied.


I have the feeling that that is the case here.  I won't go into it again, but let's just say I am in kenpo because the two other arts I tried just didn't have what I was looking for - especially in the instructors, who seemed great when I first started in each.  Live and learn.  And -- thank you for your patience in explaining things.  KT


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I was told that pullig the toes back help peotect the knee joint, especially on air kicks.  Which due to suggestion of fact I can fell a difference in my knee when kicking with instep or ball  of foot.
> I guess I can see your point about walking aspects of the foot, but how would the foot position protect the hip.  Please remember I am a layman
> Thanks for your time
> Todd


Yes it does protect the knee as well. Simply, every part of the human machine is connected to every other part. If you move a finger it can make or break the overall structral integrity of the entire body. Therefore the overall posture must be positive for the action executed and these are well defined in human anatomy through competent teachers.


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## Mekugi (Aug 24, 2004)

A "senior" will always be in a position to help/teach a "junior". I do believe that is the natural behavior in this setting. If you look at the Japanese word "sensei" it boils down to "one that has gone before you", more or less, implying that your seniors are your teachers as well. 

Similarily, you will find your older students helping out the younger ones as a matter of habit. Regardless of whether you give a higher ranking student an entire class to run, the characteristics is learned through a underlaying pattern and will be present without interefence. 

My nickle....

always


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I have the feeling that that is the case here.  I won't go into it again, but let's just say I am in kenpo because the two other arts I tried just didn't have what I was looking for - especially in the instructors, who seemed great when I first started in each.  Live and learn.  And -- thank you for your patience in explaining things.  KT


My pleasure, and I do know what you mean. 

And to clarify, most teachers are just "winging it" with no real education behind what they do other than what was taught to them. In most instances, its not their fault. They are simply regurgitating "bad information." Then there are the others .....


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, regardless of what arts kick with it or not, the fact remains, that things are going to change when shoes are worn.  Yeah, barefoot, its gonna be possible to pull the toes back, but wearing shoes, you're going to be kicking more with the toe area, which can lead to an injury.  The shin provides a much harder and more powerful striking surface.
> 
> Mike


Perhaps you misunderstood. The roundhouse kick comes from the Chinese Arts who do not train barefoot. That is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese culture they inserted into their arts. The issue is the improper flexation of the ankle. 

Your assertion with regard to shoes is a false one. If the shoes are soft enough, you can still flex the toes and kick with the ball of the foot. If they are not and are hard enough that you can't, than you kick with the toes supported by the shoes. No problem.


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## MJS (Aug 24, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Perhaps you misunderstood. The roundhouse kick comes from the Chinese Arts who do not train barefoot. That is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese culture they inserted into their arts. The issue is the improper flexation of the ankle.



Thanks for the clarification.



> Your assertion with regard to shoes is a false one. If the shoes are soft enough, you can still flex the toes and kick with the ball of the foot. If they are not and are hard enough that you can't, than you kick with the toes supported by the shoes. No problem.



And the key word there is * if *.  Sneakers are alot softer than dress shoes, but you're still not going to get the same effect as if you were barefoot.  Regardless, if I can kick someone in the chest with the shin and get results, why risk injuring my foot just to kick with the ball??  

Again, it all comes down to personal preferrence.  I prefer to kick with the shin.

Mike


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## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

Mekugi said:
			
		

> A "senior" will always be in a position to help/teach a "junior". I do believe that is the natural behavior in this setting. If you look at the Japanese word "sensei" it boils down to "one that has gone before you", more or less, implying that your seniors are your teachers as well.
> 
> Similarily, you will find your older students helping out the younger ones as a matter of habit. Regardless of whether you give a higher ranking student an entire class to run, the characteristics is learned through a underlaying pattern and will be present without interefence.
> 
> ...


A "Senior" may guide younger students in many ways, however if they are not assigned and/or certificated to teach the curriculum, it is forbidden and there are no exceptions regardless of rank, age, or tenure.


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## Kalicombat (Aug 24, 2004)

In regards to the initial question:
Every school has a definitive curriculum as layed out by the head instructor, or association founder, president, etc... There is no room in a kenpo school for spacklings of information previously obtained from other association instructors. IF I had a school, and I am teaching the curriculum that my instructor taught me, then the instructors that I have empowered to lead classes will teach the information the way that I taught them. 

My instructor has taught me the info as he sees fit, and out of respect to the privelage of wearing his association patch, I will teach the material likewise. When a person has absorbed the material, preferences and prejudices will ultimately be formed, but the standard curriculum is just that, a standard that all students must be graded by. I have heard people say things like, " I do it this way becuase it is more comfortable". That is like nails on a chalk board to me. Kenpo and life in general are not about comfort, it is about doing whatever is necessary to succeed. 

I liken this to an engineering student deciding that they dont need to take all the math courses their career path deems necessary. Its not open for discussion. You chose to be an engineer, therefore, you must comply with the course requirements that millions of other engineers have deemed necessary to achieve the title of engineer. Or a nursing student that says they dont like blood so they choose not to learn to draw blood; not gonna work. 

Gary C.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 24, 2004)

"A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen... While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions... The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there."  KT


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 24, 2004)

Part of the difficulty of martial arts practice is that it is difficult to be sure that you've found a teacher worth trusting--and difficult to then go on and trust them.

What I mean by this is that martial arts schools aren't democracies in the sense that people sometimes think, which is that everybody's opinion is equally good. No, it isn't: everybody's opinion is to be equally valued as their opinion, which is another thing entirely.

To pick up from an example already given: if somebody thinks that "evolution isn't scientific," or that, "science doesn't prove that the earth goes around the sun," or that, "there's solid proof that we never landed on the moon," well, they're certainly entitled to those opinions. The problem is that they hadda go and drag science into it. Once you do that, well, opinions don't count any more. You're even entitled to claim that science is the wrong way to see reality--but the "game," of science has certain rules, and one of those rules is, you don't get to overlook facts you find embarassing.

This--sorry in advance--doesn't have anything to do with change, or keeping one's mind open. It has to do with understanding that there really are such things as people who know more than you do about certain subjects, and when you meet one, you'd best shut down your opinions if you want to learn the subject. Of course if you don't or the "teacher's," an idiot, that's another story. But once you're pretty sure that the martial arts teacher knows what they're doing--well, you need to shaddap and try to learn, because otherwise, why are you even a student?

In other words, don't keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't collapse into blind obedience and repetition--but recognize that there are people who know more about what you're trying to learn than you do. 

One other point is that good martial arts training involves dredging up a lotta crap from one's--well, let's just call it the unconscious. And some of that crap doesn't want to be dredged, some of it involves refusing to learn, and some of it gets blocked by parts of the mind that do not want to change. In other words, failing to open your heart and your mind, and failing to think about those voices that, "have a better way," than somebody with forty years or so in the art, is not so good.

Some of this is why Stanley Fish, the literary scholar and critic, recently wrote that beginning students should be told to leave their opinions at home. They should be trying to learn something better.

I realize that I make some of you guys cranky, perhaps with good reason. Again, apologies, if those help. But please try to understand that I am about the last person to argue for blindly following whatever you're shown. 

By the way, I was taught to roundhouse with the instep first, partly to protect the delicate little tootsies. But I was also taught to, "chamber," the knee at first....and then, things developed. Go figure.


----------



## Doc (Aug 24, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification.
> And the key word there is * if *.  Sneakers are alot softer than dress shoes, but you're still not going to get the same effect as if you were barefoot.


Huh?


> Regardless, if I can kick someone in the chest with the shin and get results, why risk injuring my foot just to kick with the ball??


Unfortunately sir you don't seem to get it. Over and above my original assertion that ultimately you WILL injure yourself, you may get results but not the same results. If your position is to just get some kind of results than that says alot. Following your logic, I will also suggest you stop punching because you might injure your hand. Maybe you should just heel-palm or elbow or something.


> Again, it all comes down to personal preferrence.  I prefer to kick with the shin.


I'm shocked!


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## Rob Broad (Aug 24, 2004)

Going to the original point of this thread I would like to say that I think all the instructors should be teaching the exact same base technique.  After that the art gets tailored to the individual.  I  have also found that too many people get bogged down in teh what ifs and they are often introducd too soon to the students.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Aug 24, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Going to the original point of this thread I would like to say that I think all the instructors should be teaching the exact same base technique. After that the art gets tailored to the individual. I have also found that too many people get bogged down in teh what ifs and they are often introducd too soon to the students.


Could swear I read something like that a few weeks, months, and years ago from a 6th that posted here LOL.

DarK LorD


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## Rob Broad (Aug 24, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Could swear I read something like that a few weeks, months, and years ago from a 6th that posted here LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD




I just like to point out the obvious.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 24, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Could swear I read something like that a few weeks, months, and years ago from a 6th that posted here LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD




I just like to point out the obvious.  And that Desert Yeti usually was on the money most of the time.


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## MJS (Aug 24, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Huh?



I believe the idea we were talking about was kicking with the ball of the foot, correct?  That being said, depending on what type of shoe is being worn, that will determine if the toes can be curled back or not, correct?  If a woman has on high heels, chances are she will not be able to curl the toes back, therefore, she'll be kicking with the point of the shoe, possibly injuring her toes.  Now, if someone was wearing steel toed boots, that would be different.  



> Unfortunately sir you don't seem to get it. Over and above my original assertion that ultimately you WILL injure yourself, you may get results but not the same results. If your position is to just get some kind of results than that says alot. Following your logic, I will also suggest you stop punching because you might injure your hand. Maybe you should just heel-palm or elbow or something.



As for results...I want the best results possible.  For example, I can stab someone with a pencil and get results, but I can stab someone with a knife and still get results, but better ones.  My example of the results that I wish to achieve I feel can be attained greater by using the shin.  I would think that you'd get much greater results with a Thai style kick over the ball of the foot.  

As for punching....well, there is always the chance that you can break your hand.  A heel palm or elbow strike can be just as good or better than a punch.  



> I'm shocked!



So am I.

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 24, 2004)

I dunno, Doc. I'm pretty keen on kicking with the distal 1/3 of my shin, too. Ball-o-the-foot roundhouse certainly provides a smaller point of contact (that whole arrow-tip vs. boxing glove thing, re- PSI), but there is just something satisfying about crashing into either the ilio-tibial band, adductor hiatus with all it's nerves, veins and arteries, or the fibular head at the inferior joint line at the lateral aspect of the knee with the thickness of the tibia near the ankle joint. Feels like taking a ball bat to the joint, rather than the softness of the toe-in ball of the foot position.

Given that all rules have exceptions, one I always suspected held water was that, thje more joints/parts there are between the striking weapon and the torso, the weaker the striking weapon (i.e., finger spear, vs. palm heel, vs inward elbow...further out from the torso, and the more joints, the less stable the natural weapon).

Ball-in roundhouse adds the ankle, talocalcaneonavicular joint complex (TCN) in an open-packed position, and multiple tarsals to the distance between the weapon and the body, when compared to the distal shin.  Additionally, the whipping action one can create with the coordinated use of hip flexors & thigh extensors (at least) *feels* like it's sending a greater force communication than the ball-in roundhouse. In contrast, the ball roundhouse feels like it depletes the force by the knee moving into extension, away from the delivery point of the foot.

I'm curious about the components you find unsatisfactory about the "Thai" roundhouse, and why.

Regards,

Dave.


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## Doc (Aug 25, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Going to the original point of this thread I would like to say that I think all the instructors should be teaching the exact same base technique.  After that the art gets tailored to the individual.  I  have also found that too many people get bogged down in teh what ifs and they are often introducd too soon to the students.


I think that most with good teachers feel that way. But I would add that the tailoring comes much, much later deep into the black belt ranks after much is learned.


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## The Kai (Aug 25, 2004)

Doc

If you think I am pestering you, please tell me!

But playing around last night with the two roundhouse kicks (kin and koshi geri).  It seems to me that when throwing the kick high (above the waist), when you have the toes back (kin geri) there is a certain looseness in the front of the hip, whereas witht he toes back your hip feels locked back.

i know one part of the body is connected to the other (years of observation).  Looking in the gray's anatomy the only mucle that seems to travel from the hip to the ankle is the hamstring -but it runs in the back of the thigh.

Is there something I am missing?
I am not trying to refute you I am hopingh to understand the process
Thanks
Todd


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 25, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Part of the difficulty of martial arts practice is that it is difficult to be sure that you've found a teacher worth trusting--and difficult to then go on and trust them.
> 
> What I mean by this is that martial arts schools aren't democracies in the sense that people sometimes think, which is that everybody's opinion is equally good. No, it isn't: everybody's opinion is to be equally valued as their opinion, which is another thing entirely.
> 
> ...


 
OMG - We agree on something!

Oh yeah.  Good post.


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## Doc (Aug 26, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Doc
> 
> If you think I am pestering you, please tell me!
> 
> But playing around last night with the two roundhouse kicks (kin and koshi geri).  It seems to me that when throwing the kick high (above the waist), when you have the toes back (kin geri) there is a certain looseness in the front of the hip, whereas witht he toes back your hip feels locked back.


Correct


> i know one part of the body is connected to the other (years of observation).  Looking in the gray's anatomy the only mucle that seems to travel from the hip to the ankle is the hamstring -but it runs in the back of the thigh.
> Is there something I am missing?


A ton.

The science of human movement, especially in martial interaction is extremely specialized and encompasses a myriad of physical sciences all connected through the constantly fluctuating conduint of the human body. It is so specialized it cannot be learned through traditional or formal education methods. However formal education can enhance the process after the fact.

Human dynamics deal with a complex living machine with hundreds of parts and connecting mechanisms and sensors that is/are in a constant state of flux and adjustment from one jiffysecound to the next. Also the body is not a solid so Newtonian Physical Laws applied to solid objects do not necessarily translate to human dynamics. This knowledge is learned and passed from one to another. 

Take note that in professional athletics, most great coaches have no physics or Kinesiology degrees yet have the ability to teach the dynamics of human physics at the highest level there is through information accumulated over years of interaction with other teachers and coaches. The ones that excel develop the most effective methodologies and understanding to their particular specialty. The martial application is the most complex.

Consider that the human body evolved under the weight of gravity or a constant unyielding resistance. Therefore the human skeleton and all of its connecting tissue and its structural integrity are inter-dependent on this resisting factor to achieve maximum efficiency and rigidity.

But the human body as a machine has a unique "living" capability beyond the mechanical machine. A human body has the ability to function "inefficiently" and does so as a normal part of its everyday function. This is what allows humans to exhibit fluid movement and allows the machine to perform things "incorrectly" as well as correctly. But the human body is only supposed to momentarily slip into its inefficient mode for the sake of certain movement, and return immediately to a strong and efficient mode to prevent injury to the machine. 

Repetitive inefficient movement through improper training will produce significant injury or "breakdowns" to the machine either immediately or over time. This is why, absent blunt force trauma and externally induced hyperextension, the body can function for many years without "wearing out."

Unfortunately modern martial arts have been marketed around blunt force trauma (power) and expeditious (speed) physical movement for "quick" acquisition of some functional skills in violation of human anatomy principles creating ignorant "Counter Anatomy Applications." Most teach aesthetically drawing on "how" they think something should look, instead of "how" something should be properly executed relative to human anatomy. In their defense, they usually are only just doing what they think they were taught.

The human body mandates how all movements are executed for long-term success and long-term mechanical efficiency. Over the years I've seen so many people in and out of kenpo tear their bodies apart executing improper movements. Double hip replacement surgery, shoulder surgeries, knee and back injuries are rampant, all through improper dynamic movement that destroys rather than enhances the human machine.

This is also why when things are learned improperly, it doesn't take long for you to "lose" the ability to perform through inactivity or age. Proper anatomical movement sufficiently learned lasts a lifetime, even with extended inactivity. It is also why some "old men" seem to demonstrate significant speed and power with a minimum of movement beyond the younger more muscle-bound student. 

Apparently you feel only muscles are involved in this process. I will reiterate. It is the entire body and all of its many parts. A single small part once moved can destroy the integrity of the machine. Even looking in the wrong direction can cause anatomical problems.

Ed Parker always said, that once you go down that path of explaining the why of every little thing, youll never get to the important part. How. When you dont feel well or your car doesnt run properly, you go to a doctor or mechanic you trust. Now he could tell you in highly technical terms whats wrong, but you still wouldnt know. So he explains it in simplistic layperson terms to give you an idea. But ultimately you must trust his judgment and follow his advice. Rmrobertsons post on the fine line of trust and keeping an open mind says it all.

You are not my student, however I take the information I disseminate very seriously and take responsibility for it. We are all students on some level and if you were my student I would simply say, trust me. If not find another mechanic, and stop pestering me.


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## Doc (Aug 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I believe the idea we were talking about was kicking with the ball of the foot, correct?  That being said, depending on what type of shoe is being worn, that will determine if the toes can be curled back or not, correct?  If a woman has on high heels, chances are she will not be able to curl the toes back, therefore, she'll be kicking with the point of the shoe, possibly injuring her toes.  Now, if someone was wearing steel toed boots, that would be different.


I guess you still don't get it.


> As for results...I want the best results possible.  For example, I can stab someone with a pencil and get results, but I can stab someone with a knife and still get results, but better ones.  My example of the results that I wish to achieve I feel can be attained greater by using the shin.  I would think that you'd get much greater results with a Thai style kick over the ball of the foot.
> As for punching....well, there is always the chance that you can break your hand.  A heel palm or elbow strike can be just as good or better than a punch.


I'm afraid your position is an indicator of how much you simply don't know. You sir are like many. You don't want information only validation for what you believe. Knowledge does not seem to be a part of the equation. Information or validation? I'm afraid I can't give you either.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Aug 26, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I guess you still don't get it.
> 
> I'm afraid your position is an indicator of how much you simply don't know. You sir are like many. You don't want information only validation for what you believe. Knowledge does not seem to be a part of the equation. Information or validation? I'm afraid I can't give you either.


 
There is a term for this condition, it's called KENPOPHOBIA, and those that have it are KENPOPHOBES and KENPOPHOBIC (see also CUPCAKE) LOL.   MJS doesn't fit into that category, though he used to LOL.

DarK LorD


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## MJS (Aug 26, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I guess you still don't get it.
> 
> I'm afraid your position is an indicator of how much you simply don't know. You sir are like many. You don't want information only validation for what you believe. Knowledge does not seem to be a part of the equation. Information or validation? I'm afraid I can't give you either.



Well sir, I'm sorry that I'm not a student of the almighty SL4, a student of the all knowing, all mighty Doc, but you know, I think that you sir, don't see the fact that you are very arrogant!  There certainly are a ton of other people out there that can take the time to explain something, without having the cocky attitude.  Speaking of explaining things, Clyde took the time to speak with me on this very subject, and I thank him for that.  

Regardless of what you seem to think, seeing that you know soooo much, I train and have trained with some damn good instructors.  Again, I think that you need to come down off your high horse.

There are many kenpo instructors out there.  You sir are not the only one that can provide information.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 26, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> There is a term for this condition, it's called KENPOPHOBIA, and those that have it are KENPOPHOBES and KENPOPHOBIC (see also CUPCAKE) LOL.   MJS doesn't fit into that category, though he used to LOL.
> 
> DarK LorD



I think that the Dark One has finally shown the young one the light! :asian: 

Mike


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## Doc (Aug 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well sir, I'm sorry that I'm not a student of the almighty SL4, a student of the all knowing, all mighty Doc, but you know, I think that you sir, don't see the fact that you are very arrogant!  There certainly are a ton of other people out there that can take the time to explain something, without having the cocky attitude.  Speaking of explaining things, Clyde took the time to speak with me on this very subject, and I thank him for that.
> 
> Regardless of what you seem to think, seeing that you know soooo much, I train and have trained with some damn good instructors.  Again, I think that you need to come down off your high horse.
> 
> ...



Well sir I can see how someone as old and experienced as I, could seem arrogant to you. Especially considering I was a black belt for over a decade the day you were born. My children used to say I was "mean" sometimes., but they have grown and perhaps one day you will to. 

There are many whom I have never met who I think might disgree with you strongly. I'm sorry but you sir were not looking for information for validation. You wanted to validate what you believe. With that I can't help you. Good luck.

Answers: $5
Correct Answers: $500
Dumb Looks: Free


----------



## MJS (Aug 26, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well sir I can see how someone as old and experienced as I, could seem arrogant to you. Especially considering I was a black belt for over a decade the day you were born. My children used to say I was "mean" sometimes., but they have grown and perhaps one day you will to.



Well sir, there are alot of people more exp. than me.  In fact, I talk to one of those very people on a regular basis.  You seem to have this unique way about yourself that you belittle anyone who has a different idea than you do.  As I said before, those people do exist.



> There are many whom I have never met who I think might disgree with you strongly. I'm sorry but you sir were not looking for information for validation. You wanted to validate what you believe. With that I can't help you. Good luck.



And I think that some would disagree with you as well.  I might be wrong here, and I'm sure that you'll correct me if I am, but as for the kicking.  I realize that certain strikes/kicks will get certain results.  The roundhouse ball kick, is more of a precision strike.  I'd still like to hear why you think that the Thai style kick is not good.  Granted, you most likely will not pinpoint the same spot as you would with the ball, but its still a very effective kick.

You know Doc, I don't have the degrees that you do, and maybe I dont' understand the body as in-depth as you, but you should try to refrain from being so rude and from putting down people, their ideas, and their training because its something that you don't agree with.  Last time I checked, we were not clones of each other.  That being said, we as Martial Artists are going to have different views on things.  Again, just because I dont' have the same outlook as you, does NOT make me any less of a Martial Artist.



> Answers: $5
> Correct Answers: $500
> Dumb Looks: Free



Do all of those come with a rude reply as well??

In addition, I no longer wish to continue this discussion on the main thread.  If you want to continue it, please do so by sending me a PM.  By the way, I tried sending one to you, but your in box was filled.

Mike


----------



## Doc (Aug 26, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well sir, there are alot of people more exp. than me.  In fact, I talk to one of those very people on a regular basis.  You seem to have this unique way about yourself that you belittle anyone who has a different idea than you do.  As I said before, those people do exist.


As I said before, I think there are many that would disagree with you. However if you feel "belittled" everytime someone who is more educated, older, or more experienced than you simply disagrees with you, you will have a difficult timing growing.


> And I think that some would disagree with you as well.  I might be wrong here, and I'm sure that you'll correct me if I am, but as for the kicking.  I realize that certain strikes/kicks will get certain results.  The roundhouse ball kick, is more of a precision strike.  I'd still like to hear why you think that the Thai style kick is not good.  Granted, you most likely will not pinpoint the same spot as you would with the ball, but its still a very effective kick.


Disagreement is not the issue here. However I think you reveal yourself based on the fact I NEVER said the kick was ineffective. In your extreme defensive posture you perceived and received what I said incorrectly. I DID say it was anatomically incorrect and could cause you long term injury, and explained why.


> You know Doc, I don't have the degrees that you do, and maybe I dont' understand the body as in-depth as you, but you should try to refrain from being so rude and from putting down people, their ideas, and their training because its something that you don't agree with.  Last time I checked, we were not clones of each other.  That being said, we as Martial Artists are going to have different views on things.  Again, just because I dont' have the same outlook as you, does NOT make me any less of a Martial Artist.


Once again I think your own insecurities are the issue here not disagreement. I don't see anywhere in this thread that anyone suggested you were less of a martial artist, nor did anyone else seem to think I was being "rude" for expressing my opinion much as you yourself did.


> Do all of those come with a rude reply as well??


I'm afraid you missed the point of that slightly humorous comment as well.


> In addition, I no longer wish to continue this discussion on the main thread.  If you want to continue it, please do so by sending me a PM.  By the way, I tried sending one to you, but your in box was filled.
> Mike


Well sir, I'm not trying to "convince" you or anyone else, nor am I recruiting for my point of view. I attempt to educate from my perspective and provide another view for those who are interested in discussion. That is what this very special forum is for, and it would be dull if everyone just agreed with everything posted. Those who are not interested in what I have to say ignor me as you should. I now will refrain from posting replies to your posts as I'm sure you will mine. In this manner I can avoid being perceived as "rude" or "belittling" by you. Now that the issue is resolved and we understand each other (right or wrong), I consider the matter in its entirety closed. I wish you success in your quest for knowledge.


----------



## Doc (Aug 27, 2004)

> I dunno, Doc. I'm pretty keen on kicking with the distal 1/3 of my shin, too.


Keen? Otisburg?


> Ball-o-the-foot roundhouse certainly provides a smaller point of contact (that whole arrow-tip vs. boxing glove thing, re- PSI), but there is just something satisfying about crashing into either the ilio-tibial band, adductor hiatus with all it's nerves, veins and arteries, or the fibular head at the inferior joint line at the lateral aspect of the knee with the thickness of the tibia near the ankle joint. Feels like taking a ball bat to the joint, rather than the softness of the toe-in ball of the foot position.


Yes, once your leg is conditioned to kicking this way I can imagine it "feels" satisfying.


> Given that all rules have exceptions, one I always suspected held water was that, the more joints/parts there are between the striking weapon and the torso, the weaker the striking weapon (i.e., finger spear, vs. palm heel, vs. inward elbow...further out from the torso, and the more joints, the less stable the natural weapon).


Im afraid that rule wont hold water when you move properly aligned with the Statue Effect.


> Ball-in roundhouse adds the ankle, talocalcaneonavicular joint complex (TCN) in an open-packed position, and multiple tarsals to the distance between the weapon and the body, when compared to the distal shin.


Yes but the position of the foot supports the tarsals and in effect remove the articulation of the joint in execution.


> Additionally, the whipping action one can create with the coordinated use of hip flexors & thigh extensors (at least) feels like it's sending a greater force communication than the ball-in roundhouse.


Typical competition sport emphasis on power and blunt force trauma over the precision of precise application breaking down the body with specific intent over general intent.


> In contrast, the ball roundhouse feels like it depletes the force by the knee moving into extension, away from the delivery point of the foot.


That would be an incorrect execution and indeed would cause problems anatomically.


> I'm curious about the components you find unsatisfactory about the "Thai" roundhouse, and why.


I thought I answered that. Its designed to operate on the lowest common denominator of physical interaction found in sporting and competition applications. Blunt force trauma is not the answer to all problems in real life. Also its use will ultimately result in significant injury to the hip flexor predicated on foot position and height of kick.

I never said it couldnt be done. You can steer a car with your feet, but that dont mean its a good idea. And please dont make me try to remember half of the names of the different muscle groups Ive long since forgotten. I never had to use them in a practice like you do everyday. You know thats no fair, I almost went crazy learning that stuff the first time around, and I aint gonna drag those dam books out and look them up any more because I don't have to. In fact, I think thats your job. Yeah, thats the ticket. Wait til I get my hands on you. It's gonna hurt, and then you can name all the painful spots.


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## Brother John (Aug 27, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I believe the idea we were talking about was kicking with the ball of the foot, correct?  That being said, depending on what type of shoe is being worn, that will determine if the toes can be curled back or not, correct?  If a woman has on high heels, chances are she will not be able to curl the toes back, therefore, she'll be kicking with the point of the shoe, possibly injuring her toes
> Mike


Hey Mike
I think I know where you are coming from, but here's my .02:

I don't think that a woman wearing 'high heels' should be kicking much of anything...curled toes or no...
except maybe kicking off those shoes the moment she senses any danger.
Your Brother
John


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## MJS (Aug 27, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Hey Mike
> I think I know where you are coming from, but here's my .02:
> 
> I don't think that a woman wearing 'high heels' should be kicking much of anything...curled toes or no...
> ...



Yes, I agree with you Brother John! :ultracool   Will the toes be injured??  Anything is possible.  Coincidentally, I spoke to someone else regarding these very kicks.  Here is his reply copied from his forum.




> Mike...kicking in any style is all about form. I see many older folks from a Karate style with bad hips and it makes me wonder why. I obviously don't do Karate but some of the kicks within the styles I do have some simularities. But the styles I do stress good form and not making a snapping sound. I think that snapping sound is not good for your knees or the hips. Personally I like the SE Asian kicking methods from Thai and the Filipino methods. Thai round kicking does not hurt the hips. The only broken down Thai fighters are the ones who lost at an early age in Thailand. The Filipino Kun Tao methods have a zoning method which is where the power comes from and the evasive methods come from. Kali/Pananjakman methods are good for in fighting. None of which have a snapping noise done with them.



Mike


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 27, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Hey Mike
> I think I know where you are coming from, but here's my .02:
> 
> I don't think that a woman wearing 'high heels' should be kicking much of anything...curled toes or no...
> ...


 
Ever had a stiletto heel driven into your instep? KT


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## Brother John (Aug 27, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Ever had a stiletto heel driven into your instep? KT


first she's gotta get close enough, and in the mean time she's less stable and can't really "ground" herself very well. 
I'd bet they'd make quite an impression on my instep, but other than that I think they'd be a liability.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Aug 27, 2004)

I have heard though that they make fine projectiles!!

Your Brother
John


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 27, 2004)

Loved the Ned Beatty ref from, "Superman," and glad to see that I am not the only completely-unique example of a "closed-minded," "arrogant," "traditionalist," after all. Gee...imagine my surprise.

I don't altogether agree about the roundhouse kick, which I was taught--and which I teach--in pretty much the same manner that can be seen in Mr. Parker's very early pamphlets with Tom Gow.

However, I absolutely agree that I've seen more than one martial artist doing things in ways that are going to leave them a mess after a few years. What's more, the way I was taught was that one does NOT, repeat NOT, take (or deliver) shots to the knees, throat, spine, etc., all just to worship the Great God Toughness.

And it is kinda silly to train in ways that are guaranteed to leave long-term damage so that you'll be prepared for some, "street encounter," that has arealtively-low probability of ever occuring.

It's worth perusing Brian Adams' "Deadly Karate Blows: The Medical Implications," both for its descriptions and its inaccuracies.


----------



## MJS (Aug 27, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> However, I absolutely agree that I've seen more than one martial artist doing things in ways that are going to leave them a mess after a few years. What's more, the way I was taught was that one does NOT, repeat NOT, take (or deliver) shots to the knees, throat, spine, etc., all just to worship the Great God Toughness.



Well, to each his own I guess.  Personally, I dont like to get hit in the throat or spine either.  Again, it all comes down to personal preference.  Even in the sparring that is done during class, contact is made to the face and to the body.  If a boxer wants to step into the ring and get hit full power, thats their business.  



> And it is kinda silly to train in ways that are guaranteed to leave long-term damage so that you'll be prepared for some, "street encounter," that has arealtively-low probability of ever occuring.



Hmmm...Robert, you're a unique person.  You teach at a college, you teach at a martial arts school, and you're also a magician that can predict the future.  I'm impressed.  Now, I may be reading this wrong..I'm certainly not perfect, or as perfect as some who shall remain nameless, but how do you know if you'll ever be attacked?? Now, I'm sure in your typical reply, you'll skirt the issue, but what makes you think that getting attacked by someone is such a rarity??  Granted, we can stay out of trouble spots, but even in the area that you'd think is the safest, something can happen.  

Mike


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 27, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I have heard though that they make fine projectiles!!
> 
> Your Brother
> John


*chortles*  I have to agree there.  As to the balance issue, assuming your attacker is close enough for you to get the heel (get it?) strike off, I would imagine that the element of surprise helps a bit here.  Fighting with those shoes on?  Only in MA flicks and on tv, I guess.  I've never tried it - or HAD to try it, thank goodness.  Like to be grounded when I strike, for the most part.

Hey Mike.  Glad to see someone else being a pest to Robertson.  Can I watch?!  Huh?  Please?  

And, Robertson.  Isn't kenpo about adapting to what's happening in the moment?  A kick can be just a kick, assuming you follow it up, true?  KT


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## pete (Aug 27, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Like to be grounded when I strike...



do i detect a thread drift?  no matter, like to see it anywhere!


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## MJS (Aug 27, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Hey Mike.  Glad to see someone else being a pest to Robertson.  Can I watch?!  Huh?  Please?



Of course you can watch.  In fact, feel free to join in.  



> And, Robertson.  Isn't kenpo about adapting to what's happening in the moment?  A kick can be just a kick, assuming you follow it up, true?  KT



You know, now that I go back and re-read something, I find this very interesting.  In this quote by Robert




> And it is kinda silly to train in ways that are guaranteed to leave long-term damage so that you'll be prepared for some, "street encounter," that has arealtively-low probability of ever occuring.



I find it interesting because of what is being said.  Now, isnt all MA training dangerous to a point??  Neck breaks, eye gouges, etc.  Why are we training that?

Mike


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## GAB (Aug 27, 2004)

Hi, I have the thought MJS, that Robert is talking the stats. you know how many people get struck with lightning or whats your chances of winning the lotto, vs your chance of being in an altercation of not your choosing?

I believe he makes very good sense on this one and most of his arguements, I just wish he would talk to the masses rather than college students going for their PHD it would be better for them and him, (IMHO).

Query... Who uses a spell check or has to go to the dictionary, regarding his or Doc's post's. Also why would you want to?...  Regards, Gary


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 27, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I find it interesting because of what is being said. Now, isnt all MA training dangerous to a point?? Neck breaks, eye gouges, etc. Why are we training that?
> 
> Mike


I think a differentiation needs to be made between the concepts of the damage one does to _one's own_ body during training versus the damage one can do to _another person's_ body during training. We all get popped in various spots during practice of techs.  It's educational to know how it feels - so you can make sure to avoid it happening.  KT


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## KenpoTess (Aug 27, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

ok.. Let's not start anything.. Obviously people have varying opinions.. Take it with a grain of salt and go on..

General Rules:
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· Please post to the correct forum, for a reason and on topic. Do not cross post to multiple forums.
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Thank you~!
~Tess
-MT S. MOD
*


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## Brother John (Aug 27, 2004)

Good MOD move Tess!!

I'd really like to read peoples thoughts on the Original topic.

Your Brother
John


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 27, 2004)

Hey guys.  I don't think that spelling should be an issue.  And I also think that the ideas posted by everyone have merit in one form or another.  The point of the thread is I was trying to get discussion going as to whether what the instructor says goes, or if a student is within his/her rights to question what he is being taught.  KT


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## Brother John (Aug 27, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Hey guys.  I don't think that spelling should be an issue.  And I also think that the ideas posted by everyone have merit in one form or another.  The point of the thread is I was trying to get discussion going as to whether what the instructor says goes, or if a student is within his/her rights to question what he is being taught.  KT


I think it should be remembered though that there is a real difference between "questioning" that leads to a better understanding and "questioning" that is really just a form of second-guessing the instructor.

When I'm with my instructor, what they say goes...period. That's part & parcel with placing myself in their hands for instruction and 'shaping'. If I don't understand, I'll ask and talk and ponder and WORK it until I understand.
That understanding may be "I disagree" or "OK...I get it". But the later isn't come by easily...nor often.

Your Brother
John


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## GAB (Aug 27, 2004)

Hi, Now I am not quite sure where the moderator is coming from, will we get a letter in our mail box if we are the one, or will it just be locked down?

Maybe I need to go back 60 respondent's and find the direction, never respond to the obvious only to the question? Even through word provocation, and talking down to the rest of the 80% only gets you green points?

Where have I lost the thought on this process? 

To many fights and not enough reason, or not enough fights and to much postulation. 

Regards, Gary


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 27, 2004)

Uh...part of my point was actually pretty straightforward.

If you repeatedly take shots to the throat, joints, head, etc. in training, it is a virtual certainly that you will suffer long-term injury. Similarly, Mr. Chap'el argued that kicking in an anatomically-incorrect fashion will virtually guarantee long-term, crippling injury.

Against this, there is the possibility--repeat, the possibility--that one might be attacked on the street and have to hit or get crushed. 

Sure, there are risks. Sure, accidents happen. Nonetheless. It is unwise to GUARANTEE injury while preparing for the remote POSSIBILITY of injury.

As for the personal remarks which, as typically, bespeak an attempt to slide by the nature of one's own comments, or to avoid actually considering the issues and thinking about one's arguments, well, they have a certain personal effect...but they actually do a pretty good job of suggesting that I might just have a point. 

Train as you like, folks. But do keep it in mind that you're going to be in that body for a while...and ask yourself if you're really willing to pay what, say, NFL players pay for their ability...one hint worth considering is that the average NFL career is now down below four years because of the injuries.


----------



## kenpo tiger (Aug 27, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi, Now I am not quite sure where the moderator is coming from, will we get a letter in our mail box if we are the one, or will it just be locked down?
> 
> Maybe I need to go back 60 respondent's and find the direction, never respond to the obvious only to the question? Even through word provocation, and talking down to the rest of the 80% only gets you green points?
> 
> ...


Gary,

Could you please tell us your philosophy as to whether your students, if you teach, should be able to question what you are teaching them?  Or, as an upper belt in your art, is this also the case?  KT


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## GAB (Aug 27, 2004)

Yes, 
Robert that is a great observation! 
I will be the first to agree with your thought. If it is getting hit with a stick or struck in the throat. To twist the arm a little to show the pain is one thing to twist the skin to show the pain is one thing, to strike someone so hard they carry a bruise for a week is another. pure BS...

The idea of hitting a bag or hitting the bag while imagining it is the throat of someone. 

Take the target shooter or the shooter who wants to shoot at objects that resemble man. Do you need to take a bullet to know its devistating effect?

It is the mental make up, of the person who needs to learn, either from a good teacher who is not afraid to step up and say this is crazy, or the student who is not so much in awe, or who has the ability to say, do I want to walk with a cane the rest of my life from 25 on? 

Then you have the awe struck, who will do what a teacher say's and not say wait, whats wrong with this picture? He wants to hurt me because he likes to hurt people, not train them to be better he just see's them as fodder.
Reminds me of Basic Boot Camp, not the best move I have ever made.

Yes! If I am going to be able to make 17 million before my 30th birthday, I will do that, but not for the thought that you might encounter danger around every corner and become injured while trying to live the unexpected.

Most persons who take to the arts do not have the mental make up of the person who started them in the first place. This is now a major business, not just some one who wants to take a few good students and perpetuate his art. 

They are not the person who took it for protection of his self and others in the line of their work/ethics either. They are looking for a form of self defense and physcial prowess, but not to much danger. They are there for cultivating a form of security they don't have and feel it will benifit them. (IMO) 

The smarter ones are not victims of this art just like they are not vicitms if they can avoid it, (lack of intelligence has a lot to play here). To strike a brick wall or a brick to prove you can do it is not my idea of intelligence. 
Ego plays a large part in this game, this is one of the reasons I feel that it should not be a contact sport or a contact game either.

I have seen many persons hurt, bad injuries to the knees and other parts of the body that do not recover well, done, no mas. 

Only to live the glory in their own mind and then unable to do much other then watch it or talk about it. Sad. I like others, can say this with out feeling like I am a sissy or a person who has not been there. 
Others can't so why would I worry about that? I don't. 

If only you can teach them before they get hurt. Some need the pain others don't, I referred that to intellegence, I still do.

I feel everyone should go into the service of their country, If we did that we would not have Wars, I believe that.  

Regards, Gary


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## MJS (Aug 27, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching.  When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week.  Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.
> 
> We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.
> 
> ...



You know, this thread has been off topic for the past few pages. Why we're discussing kicks, I have no idea.  Maybe that should be made into a separate thread.  I do belive that the original thread was the post above.

Mike


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Aug 27, 2004)

> In my experience, when "instructors" spend a considerable amount of time speaking of endleass variables and possibilities, they have very little real information to desseminate. The compexity of basics and their applications are significant enough without introducing alternate material and ideas not actually relevant to the student developing immediate skills and a workable understanding of the core material.


It depends on how it is done.  Mentioning that there are other options - that in an actual situation you will have to adapt to what is coming at you, what is going on with you at the moment - is always a good point.  

I am exceptionally fortunate - I train in a studio and with instructors where I always feel free to ask questions about the material - whether I am doing it correctly, the application, and so forth.  I tend to over-think things sometimes, but then that is what I will hear from my instructor.  I'm glad that my questions are treated as someone trying to understand, and not as someone trying to challenge the instructor - which is never my intent at all.


----------



## kenpo tiger (Aug 27, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Yes,
> Robert that is a great observation, I will be the first to agree with your thought. If it is getting hit with a stick or struck in the throat.
> 
> The idea of hitting a bag or hitting the bag while imagining it is the throat of someone.
> ...


Thank you.  Your point about martial arts being a business is well-taken.  For many practitioners it is their only business, and they are quite successful in running it.  Others have taken it a step further and created martial arts empires replete with franchises and commercial product to market and sell to their students.

As to being injured, it's part of the allure of martial arts, isn't it?  The glory factor, as you put it.  I believe Robertson pointed out pro football as an example as well - albeit a much much more lucrative example - of injuries leading to retirement.

So, for those of us who are pursuing a martial art for self defense, self improvement, or - dare I say it - fun, exactly what type of commitment should we be getting from our teachers?  KT


----------



## MJS (Aug 27, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I think a differentiation needs to be made between the concepts of the damage one does to _one's own_ body during training versus the damage one can do to _another person's_ body during training. We all get popped in various spots during practice of techs.  It's educational to know how it feels - so you can make sure to avoid it happening.  KT



I agree!  However, the martial arts are a contact activity.  Bumps, cuts, etc. are a part of the package, and people should be used to them.  If its something that someone can't handle, then IMO, the arts are not for them. Again, we all train for different reasons, and we are all different.  

The answer is simple.  Considering that there are many arts out there, as well as different training methods.  If there is something that someone doesnt like, then simply dont study that art.  

As for damaging the body...I agree with you.  But, again, even doing techs. in a tech. line, an injury is bound to happen.  While I dont think that its wise to train the Thai kick full force on your partner, with the proper gear, a full power shot is possible.  I've sparred with people and have done those very shots, with control!  I enjoy working out with my partners and realize that if we get injured, then thats one less person we have to train with, which is not a good thing.  Now, someone could say "Well, if you're not doing the kick full force, how are you gonna know if its gonna work?" Ok, well, how are we going to know if the arm break in Lone Kimono is going to work?  Again, it all comes down to control.

Mike


----------



## pete (Aug 27, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> In my experience, when "instructors" spend a considerable amount of time speaking of endleass variables and possibilities, they have very little real information to desseminate. The compexity of basics and their applications are significant enough without introducing alternate material and ideas not actually relevant to the student developing immediate skills and a workable understanding of the core material





			
				Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> It depends on how it is done.  Mentioning that there are other options - that in an actual situation you will have to adapt to what is coming at you, what is going on with you at the moment - is always a good point.





			
				pete said:
			
		

> training to* internalize * kenpo principles to take well prepared and effective action *regardless* of endless variable and possibilities is in my most humble opinion what kenpo is all about.



pardon my summary, but many pages went in between! 

there is a difference between training for all those various situations as different "techniques" vs. identifying a change in the situation after starting your defense and moving into a different defense from your arsenal that is specifically designed for that new situation... 

i'm not quite sure by doc's response if he considers either or both irrelevant. 
i happen to favor working towards the latter... 

doc, if you're out there, please clarify your position...

pete


----------



## Doc (Aug 27, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Loved the Ned Beatty ref from, "Superman," and glad to see that I am not the only completely-unique example of a "closed-minded," "arrogant," "traditionalist," after all. Gee...imagine my surprise.


Man, no one ever gets that one. A tip of the hat sir, I guess you're the only one that got it. (Maybe it's a "close minded arrogant traditionalist thing")


> I don't altogether agree about the roundhouse kick, which I was taught--and which I teach--in pretty much the same manner that can be seen in Mr. Parker's very early pamphlets with Tom Gow.


Tom Gow, a blast from the past. Last time I saw him it was in the eighties. He had balooned to 300 pounds and began training and lost about a hundred pounds. Anyway the round kick as demonstrated in that basics book by Tom, (the one with the double exposure of Ed Parker on the cover), is pretty much correct. 

The right shoulder just needs to move forward past the radial line reference of the shoulders a tad. You'll notice his lead shoulder is actually "behind" his lead hip appearing to move away from the direction of the kick creating a "counter body rotation." Almost impossible to see in a still posed photograph, this is a common mistake in teaching because it "feels good" and helps balance, but the pulling back of the shoulder pulls the hips in the opposite direction of the actual kick. Of course the picture is pretty accurate, but I have the advantage of having Tom's actual roundhouse kick in my memory banks.

"Hump? What hump?


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 27, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> "Hump? What hump?


Hee hee he...*Wait Master!* It might be dangerous....you go first!


----------



## rmcrobertson (Aug 27, 2004)

I think that most of this stuff has to do with teaching, actually.

But if I may digress, whatever happened to Tom Gow? I've been hoping this isn't the same guy who I looked up, and who's mainly known in John Birch Society circles...


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Aug 27, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> pardon my summary, but many pages went in between!
> 
> there is a difference between training for all those various situations as different "techniques" vs. identifying a change in the situation after starting your defense and moving into a different defense from your arsenal that is specifically designed for that new situation...
> 
> ...


The force is getting stronger by the  minute with this one.

DarK LorD


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 28, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Im afraid that rule wont hold water when you move properly aligned with the Statue Effect.


C'mon. We both know I ain't even near the statue effect...yet.



> Wait til I get my hands on you. It's gonna hurt, and then you can name all the painful spots.


To feel is to believe. As one who learns best by observing what a person does while delivering a whuppin' (providing it moves slowly enough to allow for observation), I look forward to learning much...and keeping enough parts intact to benefit from the learning.:asian: 

Regards,

D.


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## Doc (Aug 28, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> C'mon. We both know I ain't even near the statue effect...yet.
> 
> 
> To feel is to believe. As one who learns best by observing what a person does while delivering a whuppin' (providing it moves slowly enough to allow for observation), I look forward to learning much...and keeping enough parts intact to benefit from the learning.:asian:
> ...


As slow as I am you shouldn't miss a thing.


----------



## Doc (Aug 29, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I think that most of this stuff has to do with teaching, actually.
> 
> But if I may digress, whatever happened to Tom Gow? I've been hoping this isn't the same guy who I looked up, and who's mainly known in John Birch Society circles...


The Tom Gow I knew wasn't a "Bircher," but that has been almost 15 years ago since I saw him last.


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## Doc (Aug 29, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Uh...part of my point was actually pretty straightforward.
> 
> If you repeatedly take shots to the throat, joints, head, etc. in training, it is a virtual certainly that you will suffer long-term injury. Similarly, Mr. Chap'el argued that kicking in an anatomically-incorrect fashion will virtually guarantee long-term, crippling injury.
> 
> ...



Ed Parker Sr. used to talk about training being as realistic as possible without losing sight of the primary directive of a self-defense art - that is to prepare you for everyday self-defense possibilities. To that end he always spoke of going "overboard" and drew an analogy with boxers. He would always say, "Boxing is not about who's the best fighter, but who's the toughest. The one who can take the most punishment is usually the winner because he outlasts the other guy. Therefore for the average guy, boxing is not a realistic martial art for training on that fact alone. Boxing training is so rigorous that most boxers are injured in training and not in bouts. If your training inflicts more punishment on your body than what you might receive in a real fight, than have the fight and forget the training and you'll still be better off than beating yourself up for years in case you MIGHT have a fight one day." Makes sense to me.


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