# holding the basics



## bcbernam777 (Mar 16, 2006)

I have found it quite wide spread amongst many Wing Chun practicioners that a certain mindset exists, one which limits their development in Wing Chun, and constricts their understanding of the system. The mindset I am refering to is the tendancy to overlook the powerful place of the most basic elements of Wing Chun and to try and race ahead to what is considered the "meat" of the system. An example of this is the importance of the YJKYM in the SLT tao form and the role that the SLT plays in the development of the stance. Though there are few who would not subscribe to the importance of the stance, the importance of performing the form slowly and carefully to develop the stance, those same people who subscribe to its importance, seem to grow bored of the form very easily and want to move on the Chum Kui, Bui Jee or anything else which seems more exciting and tantalising, and in so doing sacrifice the time and energy needed to lay the right foundation, therefore when they actually touch hands with someone who has understood and have actively sought to train and develop the basics, they find that they have no ability against such a person. The blame is laid on whom? the system? the student? or the Sifu? I believe its all and none at the same time, and I dont think it is as simple a matter as holding out one element in isilation to the rest, but I believe there to be a singular reason, which contains the three elements, which is the market driven aproach to martial arts, selling out the integrity of the art for a fistful of dollars, and a handful of convienience. Martial arts has becime big business that is more concerned with the McDonalds approach of "give the customer what they want" rather than what is needed in terms of an effective and transparent approach to the system, one that is rooted not in the the mere trickery of a a-z approach to martial arts complete with a pretty belt at the end of it, whos only meaning is tied into how nice the cloth is, but an approach that is rooted in the concpet of Wing Chun being a dynamic and alive way of approaching the problem at hand. Too many are not willing or maybe indeed able to fit within the parameters of the system, not being able to clearly see the goal of moving from naturalness, awkwardness, back to naturalness again, disolving the system into your own being, so that it is like breathing.
The correct mindset, learn to love the simple things of Wing Chun, learn to cling to the basics until they have become yours and you own them, dont be taken in by the formalised constructs of curriculum, learn to find the system and dont loose your own fluidity and aliveness. Finally hold on to the basics be patient, dont overlook them or give them little thought because they dont seem that exciting, because when you are tested it is the basics that will save you in the fight, that is their own excitment.


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## dmax999 (Mar 16, 2006)

I have to agree with this, me being one of the ones you are talking about.  I quit WC because after years I didn't appreciate it or fully understand its basic principles.  Now in a Shaolin Kung Fu school, I can clearly see how effective WC can really be.

I believe WC can be taught too easily, so you get shown an amazing "secret" to fighting, but since it was so easy to learn you think it is nothing.  All the stuff I first learned in WC I now see how it really applies and how truly effective it is, I just wasn't paying enough attention back then.

For me Tai Chi is the same way.  I get told a different way to do a move, its obviously better, and then I forget about the correction because it was too easy to learn.  When I toil to learn it on my own again later, then I never forget and sometimes even remember I was told what I just figured out years ago. (This just happened to me the other day)


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## yipman_sifu (Mar 17, 2006)

That's 100% true.


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## brothershaw (Mar 18, 2006)

Alot of people belive the "wing chun was designed to be learned quickly" myth so they run through the stuff and also have teachers who run through it. Not everybody is like that but enough are. With that mentality they are not going to do slow SLTs for years, or any of the other "boring " stuff that will make everything else so much better.  
   THere are some concepts in wing chun that are easy to pick up and use, and that can also be misleading, people want to learn " trapping" , or a six inch punch, or jump on the wooden man, and they miss the whole forest looking at a bush. Alot of the cheesy magazine articles dont help either.


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## Stu (Mar 23, 2006)

I've been Studying Wing Chun for just over 18 months now... 

After 12 months of Sil Lim Tao my Sifu progressed me onto Chum Kiu. Very quickly after that it became obvious to me that everything that I had learnt about SLT wasn't even scratching the surface of this form. Its almost knocked me back with the realisation of the enormity of it.

To rush through the basics is only cheating yourself, after all... we're not in a race are we?


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## fightingfat (Apr 25, 2006)

Great original post! How can you move on until you understand how to correctly form shapes and correctly apply them?


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 25, 2006)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Alot of people belive the "wing chun was designed to be learned quickly" myth so they run through the stuff and also have teachers who run through it.


 
Well, marketing aside, that is the idea, isn´t it? I mean, I read more than once that WC is supposed to be taught in 5 years.


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## dmax999 (Apr 26, 2006)

I have to disagree to a small extent. Given two students of equal natural ability and train them equal amounts in WC and any other MA, my money would be on the WC guy winning after 6 months.

Some basics of WC can be learned quickly to the point of being very effective. WC gets you a few techniques and drills them in good, not hunderds of techniques like other MAs.

Now the cavaet... The "quick" WC guy is not doing chi sao, is not doing most of WC and probably doesn't look much like real WC, but he can hold his own in some fights if he trained correctly. That is what I always assumed was meant by learning quickly, not becoming a master on every aspect.

Its similar to chess, the rules can be learned quickly but it may take a lifetime to master using them.


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## brothershaw (Apr 26, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Well, marketing aside, that is the idea, isn´t it? I mean, I read more than once that WC is supposed to be taught in 5 years.


 
Not everything you read is true, or should at least be taken with a pound of salt.
Yes in 5 years time you could definitely show someone the entire system of wing chun or any other style, how good they would be at it or any other system is another story. There are so many things that could take at least a year to develop before you could build on it with new stuff.
I would honestly say about 10 years of continous training / learning. 
And i have gone out of my way to meet people from different branches to see how they do things, and skill level.
  So much of the beginning stuff in wing chun is so unnatural that alone takes time to absorb.
  Imitating movements and positions and actually feeling them are different things.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> So much of the beginning stuff in wing chun is so unnatural that alone takes time to absorb.


 
If you will excuse me, I´ll go on a tangent here.

Why the hell does WC feels so unnatural anyway? I mean, I got the very same impression when I was learning it, and it annoyed me to no end - it was one of the reasons I quit WC.

IMHO, if something is unnatural, it will take longer to learn and to master than something that feels more natural. Why not learn the natural way instead of forcing your body to move in ways it was never intended to? Why not take the easy path, if the results are the same (i.e. learning how to hurt people)?

Quite frankly, I will consider coming back to WC when someone proves me those methods are better than the methods employed by everybody else.

All the WC guys I personally met who could kick my *** had years and years of experience, but I met many boxers and kickboxers and BJJ players who could probably kick the same amount of *** with just a couple of years of experience. Quite frankly, I blame this on that very "unnaturalness" of the teaching and fighting methods employed by WC.

Yes I know, sorry for the rant. But it IS a fair point.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> If you will excuse me, I´ll go on a tangent here.
> 
> Why the hell does WC feels so unnatural anyway? I mean, I got the very same impression when I was learning it, and it annoyed me to no end - it was one of the reasons I quit WC.
> 
> ...


 
It's true that other styles are faster to be learnt than Wing Chun. That is because many people as students going to a Wing Chun club will be told to relax. Relaxing is good, but most of the trainers takes it in a big way in which it affects their training progress. They train little and devote a little time to the system. That's why they will not aquire the proper balance, energy development, and fighting power. Other styles such as boxing, trains you like a machine to punch and move. Do you expect a Wing Chun guy with little training to overcome a boxer who trains till sweat is in the toes, the answer is NO. A Wing chun trainer must train like a boxer to acheive tremendous results.

Regarding the unnaturalness that you talk about. That't not true, Wing Chun is very direct and simple. It tries to bring the human being instinct to it's naturalness. Humans instict changes to abnormality as it experiences incidents in life. That's why in a fight, we see lots of high kicks and fancy roundhouses and flying kicks. This unnaturalness, the nature of a human is just to go and finish in a straight centre kick that is followed by punches.
Now regarding grappling and BJJ issue. I beleive if someone would aquire a strong punch, he would crush those grapplers. You will say that they can take a blow or two and will still manage to grapple. OK, that's if a woman like the one you joked in the airplane punched, sure. But what about if Mickey (Mike Tyson) was the puncher and was a Wing Chun guy with chain punches. He would finish those grapplers. The point is that Wing Chun is normal and effective, only the problem is that we lack determined trainers and good examples in the system, and suppose we had, you will not see them in competitions because they have a diiferent look in the combatic philosophy.


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## Kensai (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> If you will excuse me, I&#180;ll go on a tangent here.
> 
> Why the hell does WC feels so unnatural anyway? I mean, I got the very same impression when I was learning it, and it annoyed me to no end - it was one of the reasons I quit WC.
> 
> ...


 
It doesn't feel strange to me, and quite frankly, I've had enough of your comments on here every 5 minutes, putting down videos, casting your holier than thou attitude on everyone, you don't like WC, that's fine. Don't keep coming here, and telling everyone? OK? I don't go to the muay thai section and start slagging that do I? Why should WC PROVE anything to you? 

With you, it isn't just a question of logical debate, it's EVERY discussion you take issue with. What do you want? An admission that Wing Chun's crap, I'm starting MT, cos WCL says it ace? Jeez, talk about ego! There is a saying that if you've nothing positive to say, then don't say it.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

I do believe there is a lot of nonsense, hearsay and outright lies in the WC community.

I also believe that many WC lineages teach a flawed striking system instead of an efficient system, ignoring certain moves and strategies commonly used in other arts (namely circular strikes, jabs and crosses). Many of them also do not allow sparring, and do not insist in physical conditioning, which of course results in a bunch of delusional pansies with no fighting skills who believe themselves to be deadly.

I know many WC sifus and students love to question the efficiency of other martial arts (specially grappling arts) without stepping into the mat to prove their points (Kevin Chan and Emin Boztepe are exceptions, AFAIK, as well as some others). They do this by hiding under the "too deadly to spar" dodge.

But I also think WC has quite a bit to offer. It has an interesting power generation method, it has good ways of developing rooting power, and its fighting principles are indeed sound. It can be developed into a good system, and in fact many sifus manage to do that.

That is why I discuss here - I believe I can learn something here. But I admit this hope is shattered everytime someone worships Bruce Lee or states that you don´t need no stinkin´ grapplin´ ta fight, or that wing chun is too deadly to spar with.

Incidentally, I never said I am an authority on anything: my opinions are my own, based on my experiences and nothing more.

And I am perfectly willing to discuss and change my opinions if decent proof is presented.

But I am certainly not going to pat people in their backs when they present a crappy video, such as that one with the terrorists, as a good example of WC. Someone has to step in and say that the king is naked.


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## Kensai (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> I do believe there is a lot of nonsense, hearsay and outright lies in the WC community.
> 
> I also believe that many WC lineages teach a flawed striking system instead of an efficient system, ignoring certain moves and strategies commonly used in other arts (namely circular strikes, jabs and crosses). Many of them also do not allow sparring, and do not insist in physical conditioning, which of course results in a bunch of delusional pansies with no fighting skills who believe themselves to be deadly.
> 
> ...



Evidently our experiences of Wing Chun differ greatly. Perhaps a little more humility may go a lot further? I'm sure there is bad WC taught, I'm sure there are weaknesses in WC, but no more or less than many/any other arts. I've learned crap ju-jitsu in the past, from a guy that was a wonderful teacher, but limited by lack of striking, pad work, sparring. That doesn't mean I think ju-jitsu's garbage, it also doesn't mean that I feel the need to hang around on the jitsu pages pointing out every single flaw and failing within JJ, and feeling that it's "my duty" to do so. If you don't want to "pat people on the backs when they present a crappy video", then don't bother at all, people can make up their own minds. In my honest opinion (when I finally got the damn thing to work!) I wasn't overly impressed with the video, but I wouldn't go out of my way to give a good slagging either. I guess we simply have very different out looks on life my friend, let's leave it there eh?


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Evidently our experiences of Wing Chun differ greatly. Perhaps a little more humility may go a lot further? I'm sure there is bad WC taught, I'm sure there are weaknesses in WC, but no more or less than many/any other arts. I've learned crap ju-jitsu in the past, from a guy that was a wonderful teacher, but limited by lack of striking, pad work, sparring. That doesn't mean I think ju-jitsu's garbage, it also doesn't mean that I feel the need to hang around on the jitsu pages pointing out every single flaw and failing within JJ, and feeling that it's "my duty" to do so. If you don't want to "pat people on the backs when they present a crappy video", then don't bother at all, people can make up their own minds. In my honest opinion (when I finally got the damn thing to work!) I wasn't overly impressed with the video, but I wouldn't go out of my way to give a good slagging either. I guess we simply have very different out looks on life my friend, let's leave it there eh?


 
My WC experience was horrible, I admit that. But it seems I was not the only one with such an experience, and it also seems the kind of WC I was taught is sadly all too common.

I used to think just like yipman_sifu, until I finally understood that it takes more than tan saos and straight punches to beat someone who wants to hurt you. Understanding that the WC I was taught was worthless cost me more than a few bruises, and it almost cost me a broken nose. So I cannot help but point out at bad WC when I see it. 

That said, please understand that I am not getting out of my way to stir up trouble on this forum. But I do like to point at mistakes and idiocy when I see it - mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

But man. Those videos...argh!


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## Kensai (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> My WC experience was horrible, I admit that. But it seems I was not the only one with such an experience, and it also seems the kind of WC I was taught is sadly all too common.
> 
> I used to think just like yipman_sifu, until I finally understood that it takes more than tan saos and straight punches to beat someone who wants to hurt you. Understanding that the WC I was taught was worthless cost me more than a few bruises, and it almost cost me a broken nose. So I cannot help but point out at bad WC when I see it.
> 
> ...



Alright alright... They were kinda bad.  Sorry YMS. I normally agree with you, but in this case, hmmm....

Shake?


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

Shake, of course!


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 27, 2006)

Incidentally, and as a peace offering, check out the following link. On this thread I described my experiences while I started crosstraining in Muay Thai (I had about 20 months of experience in Wing Chun when I started it).

I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. It took me a long while to find out my WC training was indeed lacking.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10368&highlight=dear+diary


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## Kensai (Apr 27, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Incidentally, and as a peace offering, check out the following link. On this thread I described my experiences while I started crosstraining in Muay Thai (I had about 20 months of experience in Wing Chun when I started it).
> 
> I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. It took me a long while to find out my WC training was indeed lacking.
> 
> http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10368&highlight=dear+diary




Seems like sense to me.


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## brothershaw (Apr 27, 2006)

First off I LOVE wing chun 

When I say wing chun is UNNATURAL, I am referrring to the elbows in the center for tan, the bong sau, the yee jee kim yung ma stance etc. 
All these positions you dont normally do in everyday life so you have to get comfortable with them before you really use them properly or know why you are using them. 
Plus as someone mentioned b4 you also need relaxation , correct angleing and on, and on.
I love wing chun however there are other things that are much faster to pick up that are also simpler and will give the average personj what they are looking for. 
ALot of poeple come to wing chun for a quickk fix that isnt there and get disappointed when they dont find it, on top of that you have questionable teachers.

Wing chun can and does work but you have to put the time in (with somebody who knows there stuff). Just becasue you can describe it in simple straightforward terms , centerline  shortest distance, blah blah blah doesnt mean its simple to learn.

If someone told me that they only wanted to spend about 2-3 years training I would push them towards muay thai, kali, and grappling just to get some moderate basics and call it a day. Most people arent into training for 8- 10 years on a consistent basis.

Good luck with the muay thai !! If I only had the time...........


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 27, 2006)

Man, people are talking about me while I am out. It seems that Lawyer just thinks that I am sort of a decieved guy that would have a broken nose and teared skin. Please listen. If you want to post anything in the Wing Chun negatively, leave me out of it, because it is really starting to be annoying.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 28, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Incidentally, and as a peace offering, check out the following link. On this thread I described my experiences while I started crosstraining in Muay Thai (I had about 20 months of experience in Wing Chun when I started it).
> 
> I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. It took me a long while to find out my WC training was indeed lacking.
> 
> http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10368&highlight=dear+diary


 
Man, just reading about your experience. I noticed something. You still beleive that big formed opponents are scary and strong. I beleive that punching a big fighter in the street in his ribs or jaw is scary, because he would be lying on the white bed surrounded by a nurse. I mean that technique is the important aspect. It seems that you learned Wing Chun in your own expeience. Don't think that we are with the same mentality Lawyer, because there are stuff that we aquire and you don't. I personally was a normal guy before studying any martial art. Never liked fighting and still hates it. When it comes to fighting, I beleive that I would do anything to win. That's why I fought with bullies in the past who were boasting alot about their skills and made them a joke, although I was not used to fighting and adrenaline always was on top in an encounter. Wing Chun taught me to be relaxed and happy. It didn't just made me more used to fighting. It made me a less aggressive guy, because I was always pissed off at things and never liked joking with people in a big manner, now I feel that I still have a long way to acheive in the Martial Way pal.

Regarding BJJ and other ring arts. Those are learned fast, and a fast learned stuff will work good to a certain limit. A long time learned stuff construct your sences and ability and gives better results, and remember an advice that is good to you my friend. "It is not the sytem or the style that lacks ability, it is what you give into it as effort and devotion". Talking about your experience, it seems you give no time to wing chun and even to Muay Thai. These kinds of person usually never sees the full image of the art and quits. If you will be like this Lawyer, there is a possibility that you would even quit Muay Thai, and might post negative threads in the MT section proving that you had a bad experience in it, so train harder my friend.


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## bcbernam777 (Apr 28, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Man, people are talking about me while I am out. It seems that Lawyer just thinks that I am sort of a decieved guy that would have a broken nose and teared skin. Please listen. If you want to post anything in the Wing Chun negatively, leave me out of it, because it is really starting to be annoying.



I wouldn't worry about what he says, he obviously has been taught in a Mcdojo somewhere, and lacks a fuller understanding of the system


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## Hand Sword (Apr 28, 2006)

No matter what art it's always Basics, Basics, basics! Even the more "complex" stuff is nother more than a bunch of basics put together.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 28, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry about what he says, he obviously has been taught in a Mcdojo somewhere, and lacks a fuller understanding of the system


 
He said that he doesn't have any authority to judge Wing chun in his experience relating in the link he gave, but it seems that the only thing Lawyer did upon registering here is opposing the poster's ideas. I beleive we learn from each other not compete in ideas, as an example I learned alot from you and others, because I beleive that most of the people here experienced Wing Chun and might help to build the individual's knowledge.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 28, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Man, just reading about your experience. I noticed something. You still beleive that big formed opponents are scary and strong. I beleive that punching a big fighter in the street in his ribs or jaw is scary, because he would be lying on the white bed surrounded by a nurse.


 
Alright, I take back what I said.

I did not use to think like you.

I was never THAT naive.

You obviously have no significant sparring experience, despite what you say here. You certainly never went at it with someone significantly bigger or stronger than you - I mean, you believe you can drop someone much bigger than you with a punch in the ribs or in the jaw that easily!?

Oh lord, I wish you lived in São Paulo. Even though I am relatively inexperienced, I am quite sure I could teach you a thing or two.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 28, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Alright, I take back what I said.
> 
> I did not use to think like you.
> 
> ...


 
How do you know that I never sparred Lawyer?!. I sparred and guess what. At the begining I once tried Taekwando and was a beginner. I once sparred with someone who were smaller than my size. I had the thaught that I would crush him. It seems that I couldn't touch him, he crushed me. Regarding punching power that you were talking about, taking a big guy means you must hit him really hard?!, no pal. I hit him in the nose with a Charlie's Angels girls punch and he is down. Same goes for the Jaw, just now do it, bring your finger and squeeze it near the jaw and the bone that is below your ear, then start squeezing back and forth, you will feel your nerves trembling with this weak finger. Imagine you got apunch there, it's really dangerous. I advice you lawyer to be open minded and take the fact that you never saw Wing chun in it's full picture, you may been instructed in an unqualified place. Man, Wing Chun is logic and effeicincy. It is a motive for relaxing, don't only take it as fighting, it's a way of living. You can use it during your work, during discusions, and even for love with your wife and other important people in your life. Regarding the issue showing me a thing or two?!, why pal?. What am I, just a fight hater that never fights only if neccessary. Why should you show me power. Using power in it's proper place is power, using it in other aspects is not power, it's decieving yourself and the balance of nature. Cheer up man .


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 28, 2006)

Lawyer my friend.

I tried to send you a PM, but your massage box is full. So read it from here.

Hi There,

I think that it depends in what level you acheived. My instructor once told me that Wing Chun sparring is difficult because it is all causing serious injuries to both fighters. So the only kind of sparring I have in our EWTO center is a groundfighting one. similar to the Rickson, Royce Jujitsu stuff. Its just in case if anyone goes to the ground. I think that speaking about you is something else, because there are many people who are bad instructors, I think that if anyone had such an experience would hate wing Chun, but like you said there are very +ve techniques you used when you sparred in the MT club, it was Wing chun. So you still beleive that Wing Chun is amazing. Listen Lawyer, learn whatever you learn is good as long as you devote a good time for practise. I personally left the EWTO for a while to finish some personal issues I am facing now. The moment I finish these issues, I would go back to train.

Life is not fighting, it is keeping it as the worst possible choice.

Yipman Sifu


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## 7starmantis (Apr 28, 2006)

This is a good discussion lets keep it that way and continue to be polite and respectfull to all involved, even those we may disagree with.

thank you,
 MT Super Mod
 7starmantis
 Adam C


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 28, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Lawyer my friend.
> 
> I tried to send you a PM, but your massage box is full. So read it from here.
> 
> ...


 
My bad, I emptied my inbox.

As far as I know, sparring in Wing Chun is no big deal. Just use your common sense and avoid eye pokes and groin strikes, and there you go. Certainly many reputable WC sifus agree with me on that (Emin Boztepe, Kevin Chan, Benny Meng).

Did you read that thread? I had lots of trouble making my WC techniques work at the MT gym - not because the techniques themselves were actually bad, but because 

1) I had done no sparring at my WC class and didn´t know how to use them properly because of that, and

2) I had not learned many essential techniques at my WC class, such as jabs, hooks, crosses and roundkicks, so I didn´t know how to supplement my WC techniques with those moves, nor did I know how to counter them.

I don´t believe WC is amazing, nor do I believe MT is amazing. I believe it CAN be a good system, but many instructors insist on keeping their heads deeply buried in the sand about many technical aspects of combat, and they also ignore many essential aspects of training, such as sparring and physical conditioning.


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## yipman_sifu (Apr 28, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> My bad, I emptied my inbox.
> 
> As far as I know, sparring in Wing Chun is no big deal. Just use your common sense and avoid eye pokes and groin strikes, and there you go. Certainly many reputable WC sifus agree with me on that (Emin Boztepe, Kevin Chan, Benny Meng).
> 
> ...


 
Regarding sparring, advanced trainers in our organization sparred alot, and we have sparring equipment and all the stuff, it is just a matter of time that any new trainer in the EWTO will spar if the Sifu will observe his progress.

Regarding Physical conditioning. You got a point in that, we do push ups, sit ups, and those stuff, but I still think that it is not sufficient. Especially in a case where we as Wing Tsun trainers must finish encounters as fast as possible, otherwise we might get tired. I personally don't get tired fast and can handle time factor, but talking in as other WT trainers, they might have problems in fitness. I don't say to train in weights, but at least to have a high stamina level. I personally hate the mojority of bodybuilders who boast alot about their bodies. I was the kind that loved to fight with them to prove that body power and shape diminish by age, while technique and skills remains to a longer stage.


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