# Military Krav Maga given too much credit



## Loki (Mar 25, 2005)

I get the feeling that part of what makes Krav Maga to some people, in addition to other things, is because it was developed for use by, and is still used by, the IDF. A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.

The funny thing is, civilian Krav Maga is lightyears ahead of it's military counterpart. Krav Maga may have developed in the military, but since military uses for unarmed combat are rather limited (those M-16's are good for something, right?), and soldiers have to be taught relatively quickly, civilian Krav Maga, in comparison, is a lot more thorough and professional.

A military Krav Maga instructor is, usually, a joke compared to a steady practitioner with even a blue belt. They don't know half the things he knows. They teach mainly rifle strikes, basic stance, punches and kicks, and a few knife and stick techniques. 

Elite units learn civilian Krav Maga, not military.

~ Loki


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## John Bishop (Mar 25, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I get the feeling that part of what makes Krav Maga to some people, in addition to other things, is because it was developed for use by, and is still used by, the IDF. A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.
> 
> The funny thing is, civilian Krav Maga is lightyears ahead of it's military counterpart. Krav Maga may have developed in the military, but since military uses for unarmed combat are rather limited (those M-16's are good for something, right?), and soldiers have to be taught relatively quickly, civilian Krav Maga, in comparison, is a lot more thorough and professional.
> 
> ...


Actually, from what I have been told by instructors from both arts.  Is that all soldiers are taught some Krav Maga as part of their boot camp training.  Elite units of the IDF continuely train in the Isreali martial art, "Hisardut".


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## arnisador (Mar 25, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.


 This is why we have more martial artists that claim to train SEALs than we have SEALs.

 Yeah, I think it got initial attention because of the IDF connection but I think it's going more on its own rep. now.


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## Loki (Mar 25, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Actually, from what I have been told by instructors from both arts. Is that all soldiers are taught some Krav Maga as part of their boot camp training. Elite units of the IDF continuely train in the Isreali martial art, "Hisardut".


Is that the same Hisardut developed by Dennis Hannover? If so, then you were misinformed. IDF uses either civilian or military Krav Maga, but I'll double check just to makes sure.

~ Loki


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## John Bishop (Mar 25, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Is that the same Hisardut developed by Dennis Hannover? If so, then you were misinformed. IDF uses either civilian or military Krav Maga, but I'll double check just to makes sure.
> 
> ~ Loki


Yes, Dennis Hanover's "Hisardut Survival".  
It may not be correct now, but at the time I wrote the articles (1994-95) on Krav Maga and Hisardut for "Inside Kung Fu" magazine, that information was given to me by American representatives of both organizations.


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## Loki (Mar 26, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Yes, Dennis Hanover's "Hisardut Survival".
> It may not be correct now, but at the time I wrote the articles (1994-95) on Krav Maga and Hisardut for "Inside Kung Fu" magazine, that information was given to me by American representatives of both organizations.


Really? That's a new one on me. I'll ask Dennis next time I see him.

~ Loki


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## John Bishop (Mar 26, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Really? That's a new one on me. I'll ask Dennis next time I see him.
> 
> ~ Loki


You can tell him the Hisardut representative was Alon Stivi.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> This is why we have more martial artists that claim to train SEALs than we have SEALs.
> 
> Yeah, I think it got initial attention because of the IDF connection but I think it's going more on its own rep. now.


LOL, yeah there are a lot of SEAL instructors, some will even show you their S.C.A.R.S to prove it.


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## Jerry (Mar 28, 2005)

> This is why we have more martial artists that claim to train SEALs than we have SEALs.


One does not need to lie to do it. There are two simple ways to make the claim. The first is that SEALs (and other groups with ongoing training) will generally welcome instructors (who have filled out the appropriate paperwork) to come seminar. Usually, it's because one guy in the unit has a fascination with the art or instructor in question.

The other (having gone to a martial arts school which was down the street from SpecOps command at McDill), is simply to teach in the vicinity... you'll likely pick up one as a student at one point or another.

But I agree. For the most part (there are exceptions); modern millitary arts are not intended to be comprehensive, nor emminately flexable (no consideration for the little old woman or civillian rules of engagement)... there's no real reason to hold them better than their (now) civillian counterparts.


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## Loki (Mar 28, 2005)

John, I spoke with Haim Zut, 10th dan in Krav Maga and a close friend of Dennis'. You're correct, some units in the army really do learn Hisardut, but they're told it's called Krav Maga. No use in teaching them a system and telling them it's the very best and then bringing in some guy and telling them "let's do some Hisardut, boys and... other boys!". Though the techniques they learn demand a lot of strength, so if you're it makes sense to only teach it to elite units.

Thanks for enlightening me,
~ Loki


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## arnisador (Mar 28, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Haim Zut, 10th dan in Krav Maga


 Is there a single person at the top of Krav Maga, or are there multiple 10th dans?


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## loki09789 (Mar 29, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I get the feeling that part of what makes Krav Maga to some people, in addition to other things, is because it was developed for use by, and is still used by, the IDF. A combat style that is used by the military is deemed better, so the reasoning probably goes.
> 
> The funny thing is, civilian Krav Maga is lightyears ahead of it's military counterpart. Krav Maga may have developed in the military, but since military uses for unarmed combat are rather limited (those M-16's are good for something, right?), and soldiers have to be taught relatively quickly, civilian Krav Maga, in comparison, is a lot more thorough and professional.
> 
> ...


A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible.  The other thing to consider is this:  MA/Self Defense is more about commitment and grit than about 'artisiticness' so a person well versed in the mental and physical commitment to a handful of effective, simple and 'proven' applications would be someone I would want at my back over an 'artist' that can dance circles around that Military/Krav instructor IMO.  The art of Martial arts is practiced in a medium of fear and mayhem....military training (especially a small force like IDF) has it over civilian practice hands down.


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## Isrephael (Mar 29, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The art of Martial arts is practiced in a medium of fear and mayhem....military training (especially a small force like IDF) has it over civilian practice hands down.



Very true.

I've always held that my combat training made me a far better fighter.  Not because we drilled HtH techniques anywhere near what we do in martial arts training, but because we were conditioned to harm or be harmed, kill or be killed.  As the Samurai philosophers discussed at length, the "way of the warrior is death".  The willingness to take a hit, the willingness to be injured, the willingness to die... and, of course, the willingness to _test_ that same willingness in your opponent, makes you a very dangerous person.

The largest difference I've seen between civilians and military is that, when the "poop" hits the fan, civilians tend to get nervous and anxious.  Military types tend to get very calm and very serious.


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## Loki (Mar 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Is there a single person at the top of Krav Maga, or are there multiple 10th dans?


Four people were ever granted the rank of 10th dan in Krav Maga, three are still living.

~ Loki


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## loki09789 (Mar 29, 2005)

Isrephael said:
			
		

> Very true.
> 
> I've always held that my combat training made me a far better fighter. Not because we drilled HtH techniques anywhere near what we do in martial arts training, but because we were conditioned to harm or be harmed, kill or be killed. As the Samurai philosophers discussed at length, the "way of the warrior is death". The willingness to take a hit, the willingness to be injured, the willingness to die... and, of course, the willingness to _test_ that same willingness in your opponent, makes you a very dangerous person.
> 
> The largest difference I've seen between civilians and military is that, when the "poop" hits the fan, civilians tend to get nervous and anxious. Military types tend to get very calm and very serious.


Sweat in peace so you bleed less in combat So to speak...

I have found the same conclusions.

It is fine to have many techniques that you can perform in training well and give you confidence, but it is more important to remember that the foundation of your white belt/beginner material is really what counts - as long as you can do it when it counts.

It is impossible IMO to match the risk level, intensity and gravity of military style mental training for combat in civilian markets.

1.  You are provided medical coverage, so the staff can really challenge you harder than someone that has to fear liability.

2.  You 'live' it.  It is part of your sworn duty/oath/job and is more immediate because you REALLY may have to do it as opposed to the 'maybe' of civilian life (Thank God we live that safe in general!).

3.  Time.  Back to the 'living it' idea.  You wake up and you do PT with a fighting mentallity.  You sit in a classroom and try to pay attention/stay awake by applying that fighting mentallity.  You call commands/respond to commands/eat/poop....with a fighter's mentallity.  6-10 hours in the evening focusing on a form/perfecting your kicks only just can't get the same job done IMO.

4.  Don't get me wrong here.  I am NOT saying that Civilian training is all crap or that no civilian will ever match a military trained MA...only that Institution vs. Institution, there is no comparison:  Military training is superior.


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## Loki (Mar 29, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible. The other thing to consider is this: MA/Self Defense is more about commitment and grit than about 'artisiticness' so a person well versed in the mental and physical commitment to a handful of effective, simple and 'proven' applications would be someone I would want at my back over an 'artist' that can dance circles around that Military/Krav instructor IMO. The art of Martial arts is practiced in a medium of fear and mayhem....military training (especially a small force like IDF) has it over civilian practice hands down.


That's usually true. However, IDF Krav Maga instructors, the majority of them, are 18 year old kids who usually have no background in KM whatsoever, not even in any martial art necessarily, and are given the position of instructor. There are always exceptions, but these are the majority.

~ Loki


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## loki09789 (Mar 29, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> That's usually true. However, IDF Krav Maga instructors, the majority of them, are 18 year old kids who usually have no background in KM whatsoever, not even in any martial art necessarily, and are given the position of instructor. There are always exceptions, but these are the majority.
> 
> ~ Loki


I know  that even in the US military the qualification are a pretty strike for instructors.  The IDF is (or at least was) training for a more urgent situation with more likelihood of real application...I would doubt that your "18 and unqualified" fits the KM instructors of the IDF.

They may be young.  THey may not have a totallity of KM training, but I would BET that they could tear up some ground and bodies with their limited knowledge as well as make sure that their student have a solid foundation that will be reinforced over time in service by future instructors.

I say this with the utmost respect, but remember to consider your source for this information:  Is it from a civilian KM instructor speaking TO a civilian KM student/group?  If so, it may have the agenda of creating a perception to counter the "only military people can be good at military arts" that can develop among civilian students.

KM, in both venues are solid self defense programs.  As far as I know, though, Hagana is the IDF full H2H model.  That came from a former member of the IDF who recieved IDF training as well as active involvement in civilian martial arts and has seen KM in the civilian world as well.


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## Isrephael (Mar 29, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> 6-10 hours in the evening focusing on a form/perfecting your kicks only just can't get the same job done IMO.




6-10 hours in the evening?  Jeebus!  The "evening" doesn't even contain 10 hours, the last time I checked.  I think that if you're training 10 hours a day/evening/whatever, you've officially transcended typical civilian training.


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## Jerry (Mar 29, 2005)

> A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible.


 Illuminate me. What does a person have to do to qualify to instruct CQB in the armed servicces that I would not dream was poosible to do?


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## loki09789 (Mar 29, 2005)

Isrephael said:
			
		

> 6-10 hours in the evening? Jeebus! The "evening" doesn't even contain 10 hours, the last time I checked. I think that if you're training 10 hours a day/evening/whatever, you've officially transcended typical civilian training.


Sorry for the confusion.  I meant 6-10 hours OF evenings during a given week.  That figure only really works if you are working out 4 days a week 1.5 hours each day or there abouts.  Less is probably more common.


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## loki09789 (Mar 29, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> Illuminate me. What does a person have to do to qualify to instruct CQB in the armed servicces that I would not dream was poosible to do?


Well, join the service, actually work in/operate in a job that applies CQB types skills.  PT regularly and at a high enough standard to not only pass but score in the tops/perfect on PT tests, recommendations by commanders/unit leaders, pass rank promotions/leadership training, read from the NCO/Leadership reading lists for credit, do correspondence courses, attend instructor training before you can instruct others, work 10-12 hours a day or more 6-7 days a week at times during that training and possibly as an instructor,

I should have stated 'personally possible' instead of making it sound 'impossible' to mere civilians.

I know many civilian instructors that respect those who do even some of these things and LOVE having military/law enforcement in their 'stable of students' but know that they don't have the physical or mental capacity/will/desire to do it individually.


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## Jerry (Mar 29, 2005)

> Well, join the service, actually work in/operate in a job that applies CQB types skills. PT regularly and at a high enough standard to not only pass but score in the tops/perfect on PT tests, recommendations by commanders/unit leaders,


Well. To start with, I can dream of that quite easily. 

Secondy: it's an interesting assumption that I have neither been in the service nor operated in a job that requires "CQB-type skills". Not only is any of teaching martial arts "a job requiring CQB-type skills", not only have I worked as a police office, but I've also trained and trained with both millitary personnel (the school I went to was down the street from McDill AFB). 

Where I would score on PT tests would depends heavily on "which service", but putting my 32-year-old, needs to work out more butt aside: I can think of some martial-artist aquaintences who did indeed join and pass PT with (comparative) ease (again, including the more demanding groups like SEALs).



> pass rank promotions/leadership training, read from the NCO/Leadership reading lists for credit, do correspondence courses, attend instructor training before you can instruct others, work 10-12 hours a day or more 6-7 days a week at times during that training and possibly as an instructor


I'm an engineer. Is "correspondance courses" more difficult than an engineering degree? I'm certified as mounted police in the SE (that was about 10 hours in the morning in classes (mostly on horseback), and the parades that lasted until late (also on horseback, working as police during MardiGras). That class lasted about 10 days of that. I'm well underway to "distinguished expert" under teh NRA marskmanship program, I've had to pass job promotions tests which included leadership training (something about a stint in management). 

Many points in my life, 10-hour days were normal (when I worked for a construction company, my normal day was 6-6 M-F with the occasional (common) Saturday). Heck, when I moved to Tampa, I held a M-F 7a-6p job, a Sat/Sun 7p-7a job (my manager at my first job let me come in Mondays at 11 if I worked Sat from 11a-4p, and still went to martial arts classes Tu-Th from 6:30p-10p, and Fri from 6:30-8p.

Does that qualify as "10-12 hour days"? That's about 100 hours a week between two jobs and martial arts work isn't it? Did that for about 4 months.



> I know many civilian instructors that respect those who do even some of these things and LOVE having military/law enforcement in their 'stable of students' but know that they don't have the physical or mental capacity/will/desire to do it individually.


And I know many who are ex-millitary. Other than a minmum PT requirement, is there anything you can point to that makes CQB instructor more difficult than (say) JAG lawyer?

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but your AF, and your PT requirement is to ride a stationary bicycle for 15 minutes and not let your heart rate go above 140 (unless you are para-rescue). The only people who even get CQP in the AF are SP, Fwd combat controllers, para-rescue, and SpecOps.


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## Isrephael (Mar 30, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the confusion.  I meant 6-10 hours OF evenings during a given week.  That figure only really works if you are working out 4 days a week 1.5 hours each day or there abouts.  Less is probably more common.



Ah, ok.  That makes far more sense.  Yes, I spend about 9 hours a week actually in class, then probably around 6 or so hours training on my own.  I was thinking that you were some sort of training monster for a moment.


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## loki09789 (Mar 31, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> 1.  Well. To start with, I can dream of that quite easily.
> 
> 2.  Secondy: it's an interesting assumption that I have neither been in the service nor operated in a job that requires "CQB-type skills". Not only is any of teaching martial arts "a job requiring CQB-type skills", not only have I worked as a police office, but I've also trained and trained with both millitary personnel (the school I went to was down the street from McDill AFB).
> 
> ...


And what in my posts implied that I 'knew you' at all?  You asked for clarification.  I gave it when I editted the 'dream of' comment.  I also qualified my response by saying that the 'commitment' issue is the difference between the civilian and military instructor on the average.

But let's take this point by point.

1.  I editted the comment that is pointed at.

2.  I never assumed that you 'didn't' only addressing the difference in training and mentallity of civilian and military trained instructors.  Question though:  Did you work in a Police office or are you saying that you were a police officer?  And, BTW, instructing CQB is different than having a job where you apply CQB skills.

3.  That is correct and if you look at the 'norm' in civilian martial arts the majority of students and instructors IMO would not be able to meet any of them.

4.  Not an issue of difficulty as much as topic and time.  The service correspondence courses I am referring to would be done while you are working those 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week or in the field in less than ideal academic study environments on topics such as leadership, weapon systems, tactics, communication systems, ....

5.  Goodie for you, I don't see how that relates by itself.  As part of the whole it demonstrates a work ethic that can translate.  Great.  But again, since when is this 'all about you?'

6.  see above.

7.  Yes, the fact that you can be given orders that take you from that instructor job to say.....Afg or Iraq where you have to operate.  That is a different job than being a JAG lawyer because a JAG lawyer IS the MOS and JAG lawyers (at least based on my Bosnia experience) don't pull guard duty or any of the guardmount type jobs by nature of their job (time demands, conflict of interests/fraternization...).

8.  And the Air Force is only 1/5 of the overall Armed forces.  The point isn't just PT but COMMITMENT and experience.  I can train now all day in firearms and H2H but as a school teacher the likelihood of direct application of those skills is far less likely than say....an 18 year old IDF soldier that use to be a Krav instructor now pulling a patrol on the streets.


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## loki09789 (Mar 31, 2005)

Isrephael said:
			
		

> Ah, ok. That makes far more sense. Yes, I spend about 9 hours a week actually in class, then probably around 6 or so hours training on my own. I was thinking that you were some sort of training monster for a moment.


Yes, I won the lottery and have all the free time to indulge in my childhood dreams:  Martial arts, writing, movieaholic and hockey (though that one came on at about 32 instead of childhood - still hooked on it though).....


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## Jerry (Apr 1, 2005)

> I never assumed that you 'didn't' only addressing the difference in training and mentallity of civilian and military trained instructors. Question though: Did you work in a Police office or are you saying that you were a police officer? And, BTW, instructing CQB is different than having a job where you apply CQB skills.


 In telling me that I should, you assume that I did not. Are you asserting that police work (performing arrests on the street) does not entil a job in which one applies CQB skills? How does being a millitairy instructor apply CQB skills other than instructing them?




> That is correct and if you look at the 'norm' in civilian martial arts the majority of students and instructors IMO would not be able to meet any of them.


 So now you are qualifying down from "civilian instructors" to "norm of instructors and students". Considering the bulk of studens are children, I'd tend to agree... but I believe we were discussing martial arts *instructors*, as a comparison of civilian students to millitairy instructors seems silly.

From what do you draw your conclusions regarding the norm of civiliian instructors? About half of the people I've learned from are ex-millitary. Some were, themselves, millitary instructors before coming to the civilian world (think "systema"). 



> Not an issue of difficulty as much as topic and time. The service correspondence courses I am referring to would be done while you are working those 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week or in the field in less than ideal academic study environments on topics such as leadership, weapon systems, tactics, communication systems, ....


 And my lack of training in communications systems is as important as their lack of training in circuit paths when it comes to a martial art (such as Krav). I don't see the relevence, nor that the fact that I spend my non-martial time learning active-directory while they spend theirs learning communications systems has any signifigance.



> Goodie for you, I don't see how that relates by itself. As part of the whole it demonstrates a work ethic that can translate. Great. But again, since when is this 'all about you?'


 When you said:

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream possible. 
​You then went on to describe this as one of the things that a civillian instructor would dreap possible (later ammended to "would believe possible to do themselves"). OK. I've been a civillian instructor, and I've done just that. Therefore, your assertion is established as untrue emperically.



> Yes, the fact that you can be given orders that take you from that instructor job to say.....Afg or Iraq where you have to operate.


 Huh? The fact that a CQB instructor can be reassigned to operations *just like every other member of the millitary* is relevent to the qualifiactions of the position itself?!? This claim seems rather desperate.



> And the Air Force is only 1/5 of the overall Armed forces.


 But it's the part you are in, and the position your experience comes from.

The Navy, until recently, didn't have any PT requirement.



> I can train now all day in firearms and H2H but as a school teacher the likelihood of direct application of those skills is far less likely than say....an 18 year old IDF soldier that use to be a Krav instructor now pulling a patrol on the streets.


 But we are not talking about the students, we are talking about the instructors. The CQB instructor is far less likely to need to use the skill than his student. More to the point, your assertion, and the one I contest is:

A military instructor would not be a 'joke' if you are considering the fact that military instructors generally speaking have to meet standards that far exceed anything that civilian instructors would dream [personally possible]​Let's make it easy. Let's grab a specific civillian instructor. How about Vladimir Vaseliev, head of Systema in North-America and former instructor in the Russian Millitairy?


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## loki09789 (Apr 1, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> In telling me that I should, you assume that I did not. Are you asserting that police work (performing arrests on the street) does not entil a job in which one applies CQB skills? How does being a millitairy instructor apply CQB skills other than instructing them?
> 
> 
> So now you are qualifying down from "civilian instructors" to "norm of instructors and students". Considering the bulk of studens are children, I'd tend to agree... but I believe we were discussing martial arts *instructors*, as a comparison of civilian students to millitairy instructors seems silly.
> ...


Wow, you really have something to prove don't you?  I clarified the comment to better explain my meaning, you are still dwelling on my earlier statement....

Let me simplifiy things on a conceptual level instead of picking a named instructor so that you can further split hairs, assume insults OR promote someone that you think I am undermining with my comments.  

Miltary instructors are MEMBERS of the military, therefore they can get orders that say "YOUR GOING TO AFG or IRAQ" where they will be applying those skills that they were previously instructing to others.  This differs from a civilian instructor because you won't be getting a letter in the mail telling a civilian instructor, regardless of system or age or connections would be getting a 'secret mission' letter of any kind.

But, if the point is to 'prove me wrong' or to 'win' this discussion...okay.  YOu win.  I'm wrong.  You're right.


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## MJS (Apr 1, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-


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## loki09789 (Apr 1, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Mod. Note.
> Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> -MJS
> -MT Moderator-


Appreciate the attempt to keep things on the up and up.

No worries, I am finished with this discussion if this is how it is going to be.


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## loki09789 (Apr 1, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> Illuminate me. What does a person have to do to qualify to instruct CQB in the armed servicces that I would not dream was poosible to do?


Okay, I'm done after this one:  The above post is what I was responding to when I wrote the list of 'to dos' 

So, I was focusing on the 'a person have to do' portion of the comment.  That in no way automatically or logically links to me 'assuming' that anyone individual (Jerry or anyone else) has not or doesn't currently do any or all of the list I posted.  Note also that I did edit the comment for clarity when I wrote:

I should have stated 'personally possible' instead of making it sound 'impossible' to mere civilians.

I know many civilian instructors that respect those who do even some of these things and LOVE having military/law enforcement in their 'stable of students' but know that they don't have the physical or mental capacity/will/desire to do it individually.

after the list of things 'to do.'

Let's face it; there are many people who decide not to join the military for a wide variety of reasons/personal perceptions.  I left at the point where I knew that I wanted to focus on family and my teaching career.  So, I no longer had the desire element listed above.  I don't think there is any insult in anything I said.

THere.  Now I am really done.


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## MJS (Apr 1, 2005)

In an attempt to get the thread back on track, maybe we could have 2 questions answered.

1-  What is the difference in KM material taught to someone in the military and a civilian?

2-  What are the qualifications of someone to teach CQB in the Military in Isreal?  After all we are not talking about the US Military, as there may be some differences.

Mike


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## Loki (Apr 3, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> In an attempt to get the thread back on track, maybe we could have 2 questions answered.
> 
> 1- What is the difference in KM material taught to someone in the military and a civilian?
> 
> ...


Thank you, Mike. That was sorely needed.

1- Civilian KM teaches what one might consider a combination of Muay Thai and Boxing, basically no-rule stand-up fighting. Kicks to the groin, biting, hair pulling, spitting, pinching... everything goes. It also teaches self-defense techniques such as releases from chokes, bear hugs, knife defenses, stick defenses, gun threat neutralizations, wrist-locks, arm-bars and so on. Since the civilian system has more time on it's hands than the military system (no 10th grader is going on a commando operation in the forseeable future), it's a lot more through, meaning you have TIME to learn all these different techniques. 
The military system, on the other hand, has to prepare you for duty. So you'd be taught a basic stance, punching and simple kicks, one or two knife defenses, using your rifle as a cold weapon, possibly a gun situation and lots of aggressive training. This would be tought to a very elite unit, on par with, say, Delta Force. Infantry and other units of similar qualification usually learn no more than use of their rifle as a cold weapon, maybe a few more techniques.

As far as throughness goes, civilian KM is a lot more professional. I agree with those who say that since military life is combattive by definition, soldiers make better fighters. However, unless you're one of those forementioned elite units, that doesn't really apply. And an aggressive, strong, well-trained civilian practitioner could probably equal if not surpass a soldier.

2- To qualify to teach CQB in the IDF, you need to be 18, a qualified PT instructor, a qualified KM instructor and physically fit. The better you are past these basic requirements, the more elite a unit you might find yourself instructing. A friend of mine is a KM instructor at the IDF's Wingate base, where the most elite units are trained. Not a very aggressive person, no martial arts background, and though I hold women in the utmost respect and have seen women make very impressive achievements in martial arts, I've yet to see a 19 year old girl such as I've described instructing the Navy SEALS.

Someone brought up a military instructor being possibly reassigned to other operations. KM instructors are qualified as what is known as "02 Infantryman" the second lowest form of combat training. Just for comparison, infantry are qualified "07 Infantryman", paratroopers (marine equivalent) "09 Infantryman" and the Shayetet, one of Israel's two most elite units, "013" Infantryman". KM instructors aren't going anywhere.

~ Loki


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## MJS (Apr 3, 2005)

You're welcome, and Thank You, for providing more insight! :asian: 

I've done a little bit of training in KM, and after doing some research, had an idea that there was some differences, but its always best to hear from someone who is more active in it, as I've just really scratched the surface.

If you don't mind me asking, where and who do you do your KM training with?

Thanks again,

Mike


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## Loki (Apr 3, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, where and who do you do your KM training with?


I train in Israel under a student of Haim Zut's, Krav Maga 10th dan, and occasionally under Haim himself.

~ Loki


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## MJS (Apr 3, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I train in Israel under a student of Haim Zut's, Krav Maga 10th dan, and occasionally under Haim himself.
> 
> ~ Loki



Cool!!  Its always a big plus to be training with the top people!! :ultracool 

Mike


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## Tgace (Apr 3, 2005)

Comprehensive areticle on Krav history here...

http://www.usadojo.com/martial-arts-articles/article-krav-maga-not-alone.htm


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## BoxANT (May 11, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> Let's make it easy. Let's grab a specific civillian instructor. How about Vladimir Vaseliev, head of Systema in North-America and former instructor in the Russian Millitairy?



just to clarify, VV was *in* the Russian Military.  Not just a civi training military.


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## KyleShort (May 12, 2005)

Hmmm...I also train with a military Krava Maga instructor (though we don't train KM, he just happens to be)...in any case, what he describes is very similar to what Loki describes as KM training for elite military units...a lot of aggresiveness (he calls it *madness*) training and some basic techniques.

The thing is, I would personally rather train in this military fashion than in most US KM schools.  Why?  Because as the saying goes, fear not the man that knows 10,000 techniques, but rather fear the man that has practiced one technique 10,000 times.  Also, heavy emphasis on *madness* training helps to put the dog in the fight, and that is a very good thing IMO.  

Adding volumes of set techniques does not make it a better art.  Also, some of the added techniques that I have seen in KM schools in my area are questionable.  I have seen a number of head level kicks, but at least in my military KM instructor friend's experience, they only train low line kicks.  Also, I can't help but question any pure, basic fighting art that adds a boat load of new techniques and colored belt and dan rankings.

But alass, my position goes well beyond KM.  I hate belt ranking and I prefer a small number of basic techniques practiced thousands of times during *madness* training...no matter what the art.  To each his own.


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## Loki (May 12, 2005)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> Hmmm...I also train with a military Krava Maga instructor (though we don't train KM, he just happens to be)...in any case, what he describes is very similar to what Loki describes as KM training for elite military units...a lot of aggresiveness (he calls it *madness*) training and some basic techniques.
> 
> The thing is, I would personally rather train in this military fashion than in most US KM schools. Why? Because as the saying goes, fear not the man that knows 10,000 techniques, but rather fear the man that has practiced one technique 10,000 times. Also, heavy emphasis on *madness* training helps to put the dog in the fight, and that is a very good thing IMO.
> 
> ...


Interesting idea.
Can you list some *madness* drills?

~ Loki


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## An Eternal Student (May 13, 2005)

I'd say one of the best ways to emphasize the difference between military and civilian training is this:

Who would you least like to fight?
A. A civilian who's been studying martial arts for three years.
B. An Israeli solider who's been in the army three years and seen combat.

The level of conflict a soldier would have to deal with is alot nastier and intense than what a civilian would.


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## Jerry (May 13, 2005)

> Who would you least like to fight?
> A. A civilian who's been studying martial arts for three years.
> B. An Israeli solider who's been in the army three years and seen combat


 Now, let's say that civillian has spent those three years as a professional NHB competitor. Who would you prefer to fight? 

I'll take the grunt who hasn't used CQB since boot.


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## Shogun (May 13, 2005)

In the Bujinkan, we use this one:

fight a soldier who knows how to fight?

fight someone who knows a deadly martial art and just wants to get away?



pick your poison. I'll take the fighter any day....


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## Loki (May 23, 2005)

Shogun's got a point.

But as for a civilian VS soldier, I'd go for the soldier. Like Jerry said, not as proficient. A lot of people in Israel served in combat units, it's not too intimidating.

~ Loki


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## gorak (May 31, 2005)

Hi

Do you know something about Eyal Yanilov and IKMF? They have Military instructors courses around a world? What is conection with Haim?

/Gorak


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## Loki (May 31, 2005)

gorak said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> Do you know something about Eyal Yanilov and IKMF? They have Military instructors courses around a world? What is conection with Haim?
> 
> /Gorak


IKMF is one of the organizations that emerged from Imi's original teachings, headed by Yanilov. From my understanding, Yanilov is all about making a fortune abroad by commercializing KM.

Military instructors don't belong to any KM organization, they belong to the IDF. Though there are organization-based instructors who served as KM instructors in the military.

Eyal Yanilov is head of IKMF, like Haim Zut is head of Kapap.

~ Loki


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## Jonathan Randall (Jun 8, 2005)

I think this thread became more about which would prevail in H2H, a combat hardened soldier or a civilian martial artist, rather than a comparison between Krav Maga, the FULL art, and the basic combative course taught to IDF recruits. I think the thread starter had a point that the long term courses open to civilians as well as IDF and LE have more breadth and depth. I think there's some truth in this. However, and this is a REAL question for me; the KM tapes marketed in the U.S. advocate a punch, yes, a punch, to the face in their handgun disarm. I suspect the original IDF course utilized an eye gouge or throat strike instead. Just my humble opinion. In any case I enjoyed viewing the American KM tapes and learned more than a few things from them. I could easily see how someone could get to a higher self-defence level by studying KM for a few months hardcore as compared to a year, or five, at a local strip mall sport karate or TKD school.


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## Loki (Jun 10, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I think the thread starter had a point that the long term courses open to civilians as well as IDF and LE have more breadth and depth.


It was actually, thank you.



> However, and this is a REAL question for me; the KM tapes marketed in the U.S. advocate a punch, yes, a punch, to the face in their handgun disarm. I suspect the original IDF course utilized an eye gouge or throat strike instead.


The original technique is a punch.

~ Loki


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2005)

A punch is fast and distracting. I could see it. An eye jab is quick, but not an eye gouge. Eyes and the throat are also smaller targets.


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## Loki (Jun 18, 2005)

Funny thing. I was at my grandmaster's today and he was just mentioning how every former IDF infantryman goes to the America and automatically becomes a Krav Maga instructor, which people take to be legitimate due to his IDF training. It reminded me of this thread.


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