# Are you ready for a gun fight?



## Lisa (Dec 29, 2006)

Well, are you?  Where do you fall in the five levels listed in this article and how prepared do you feel?



> Everyone with a concealed carry permit would like to believe they're ready should they ever have to use their gun in self-defense. I've seen people whose level of preparation for that possibility ranged from dedicated practice to no practice at all. Can we set up a system to estimate, all else being equal, just how prepared we might be to defend ourselves should we ever wind up in a gunfight? I think so, and I call the resulting system the Hierarchy of Tactical Shooters. It breaks down into five levels, and from lowest to highest they are as follows.



Full Article


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## arnisandyz (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm level 4. Never been in a gun fight and don't really have the disire to be! I'm currently shooting 3-4 matches a month: 1 or 2 IDPAs, 1 3-gun, 1 IPSC, 1 Indoor Combat" match. They all are different and have something to offer. The indoor combat match is something new I've been trying. Its setup as a blind stage like a shoothouse (you don't know what your walking into). Its low light and you have to ID and verify, make real-time decisions on shoots and no-shoots. In addition I'm also in th process of incorporating firearm useage into my Filipino Martial Arts material. Trying to get an Airsoft force-on-force match going as well.

Pretty good article, thaks for posting.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 29, 2006)

I've been at level 5 myself (don't ask) and right now not owning a firearm (*ahem*...legal barriers) I'm at a level 0. But when I'm out with my (gun owning) friends and they go out shooting I'm there and practicing best as I can whenever I can. 
I'd say if I'm placed in a level 5 situation again (God Forbid!!) then I feel confident enough to say I will do whatever is necessary depending upon the situation. ... if I had a gun.  

I'm sure that the idea of taking a life is one thing... the thought of it may garner various reactions between no problem to ...uhh I dunno. But, actually doing it is quite different I'm sure and the aftermath, the realization, that's been known to change people, dramatically. I've been fortunate to have *never* terminated a life of another human being. I pray that I never will. But, again, circumstances pending... I won't hesitate if me or mine is in immient danger of losing theirs. I will cross the bridge of dealing with the aftermath when I get to it. :asian:


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## arnisandyz (Dec 29, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> I'm sure that the idea of taking a life is one thing... the thought of it may garner various reactions between no problem to ...uhh I dunno.  :asian:



TRUE.  The article doesn't cover ALL the bases of preparedness, it focuses on the "skillset" of handling a firearm but doesn't even touch on the mental/social aspects of taking a life. Someone that has a "killer instinct"...that they WILL take a life if needed has an edge on someone who is skilled with a firearm in the sport of Practical shooting, but has indecision on what they are going to do in a life and death situation.

I feel that I have garnered skill through practical shooting, but it does NOT develop the instincts for survival. I feel that I am preprared to handle myself in a situation (with or without the firearm) but its through my martial arts practice and NOT practical shooting, the firearm is an extention of the weapon systems and mentality already developed though the years.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 29, 2006)

I'd put myself at level 3.  While I've had some formal training, I don't compete.

I do feel that there's more to this issue...I don't see anything in the article about other types of training (empty-hand, knives, impact-weapons, etc.).  It is very common to find people on both sides of the aisle who think that they don't need different types of training.  You've got the "gun guys" who think that because they shoot, train, and compete they don't need any empty-hand or contact weapon skills.  This is an attitude that I encounter often on the gun and CCW forums.

Then you've got the "martial-artists" who feel that because they train in empty-hand techniques they don't need any weapon skills.  This is an attitude I encounter frequently on the martial-arts forums, including this one.
Either way, they're wrong.  A student of realistic self-defense should seek to become proficient in all aspects of combat...not just the areas that they have a personal liking for.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 29, 2006)

MA-Caver said:


> I've been at level 5 myself (don't ask) and right now not owning a firearm (*ahem*...legal barriers) I'm at a level 0. But when I'm out with my (gun owning) friends and they go out shooting I'm there and practicing best as I can whenever I can.
> I'd say if I'm placed in a level 5 situation again (God Forbid!!) then I feel confident enough to say I will do whatever is necessary depending upon the situation. ... if I had a gun.
> 
> I'm sure that the idea of taking a life is one thing... the thought of it may garner various reactions between no problem to ...uhh I dunno. But, actually doing it is quite different I'm sure and the aftermath, the realization, that's been known to change people, dramatically. I've been fortunate to have *never* terminated a life of another human being. I pray that I never will. But, again, circumstances pending... I won't hesitate if me or mine is in immient danger of losing theirs. I will cross the bridge of dealing with the aftermath when I get to it. :asian:




Well I do not train in competitions. (* Just learning to get better at teh standard range first then I will look into more *) 

I have been shot at before.  No Gun on me for any of them. One was over before I could react. Another one I dropepd and found cover, ..., . 

I own a gun but no carry permit. (* Looking into one. *)

Maybe level Two with some unlucky experience and lots of room for improvement.


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## bydand (Dec 29, 2006)

Have to say level 3.  Used to shoot compitition years ago, but that wouldn't count anymore.


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## Cruentus (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't think that you have to compete to reach the benefits expressed in level 4. I think that you can do moving and shooting exercises at multiple targets without having it be in the context of competition. I also think that airsoft or simunition scenarios are useful as well.


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## Lisa (Dec 30, 2006)

Personally, I am probably at a level 0 considering my little air rifle doesn't hold much threat and I compete standing and not moving at all. 

Would love to one day get into IPSC or IDPA, however, time and the root of all evil, "money" aren't allowing those things to happen right now.


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## wade (Dec 31, 2006)

Oh I am so screwed on this. I carry my little 380 in a holster inside my pants with no round in the chamber. I'm more scared of shooting someone I don't mean to than shooting some one in self defense. Yes, I do have a carry permit cause it's my right and yes I would shoot someone if I had to (USMC, Nam), I just don't want to do it before I'm ready.


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## SFC JeffJ (Dec 31, 2006)

Hate to say it, but I'd pretty much fall under level 5.  Been in plenty of "gunfights"  while in the service, and also in civilian life.  Try to keep my skills up even now as my job safety requires it again.  

I also agree with Paul about level 4 can be reached and maintained without competition.  Just need a good training regimen and the ability to motivate and push yourself.

Jeff


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## Lisa (Dec 31, 2006)

wade said:


> Oh I am so screwed on this. I carry my little 380 in a holster inside my pants with no round in the chamber. I'm more scared of shooting someone I don't mean to than shooting some one in self defense. Yes, I do have a carry permit cause it's my right and yes I would shoot someone if I had to (USMC, Nam), I just don't want to do it before I'm ready.



So, why do you carry then?  I am not trying to be rude or anything like that.  I just am failing to understand why someone would carry a unloaded weapon or have a carry permit if they weren't prepared to use it?


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## MA-Caver (Dec 31, 2006)

Lisa said:


> > Originally Posted by *wade*
> > Oh I am so screwed on this. I carry my little 380 in a holster inside my pants with no round in the chamber. I'm more scared of shooting someone I don't mean to than shooting some one in self defense. Yes, I do have a carry permit cause it's my right and yes I would shoot someone if I had to (USMC, Nam), I just don't want to do it before I'm ready.
> 
> 
> So, why do you carry then?  I am not trying to be rude or anything like that.  I just am failing to understand why someone would carry a unloaded weapon or have a carry permit if they weren't prepared to use it?


.
Wade, I have to agree with Lisa here. As a combat veteran one should know more than us civilians that a gun fight doesn't come prepared. Many times it happens. My conversations with Vietnam vets have taught me this, my own experience on the mean streets of Dallas and Washington D.C. have taught me this. You could be walking along (in the jungle or on the streets) and the next thing you know you're diving for cover, weapon drawn searching for a target. 
To say not to do it "before you're ready"... I think that might need some clarification so to understand what you mean by that. If you can see the threat coming then yes, you can quickly prepare yourself to BE ready but at a sudden onslaught there is no time or the readiness must be instantaneous. If that's what you meant then fine. 
Nobody wants to shoot anybody that they don't mean to shoot. But it happens. Thus the reason it's a good idea to constantly practice with your weapon of choice to have better control with it... (you already know this). 

I request more clarification on your statements. :asian: Thanks in advance.


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## Grenadier (Dec 31, 2006)

wade said:


> I carry my little 380 in a holster inside my pants with no round in the chamber.


 
If I may ask, what pistol is this?  

If you have a decent holster, and are using a pistol of good quality, then there's no reason to fear an accidental discharge.  Almost all modern day pistols that are of reasonable quality have firing pin blocks that prevent such things from happening.  

When you are attacked, there's precious little time, and each second counts.  While there are some people who can draw, rack, and fire, "Israeli-style," in a very short time, we should always remember that this is done with a full sized pistol, being drawn from an outside the waistband holster, with two good fucntioning arms / hands.  

In an emergency situation, you're drawing a small pistol from a holster that is not quite as accessible, and that the slide will not be nearly as easy to rack.  Furthermore, you might not have two functional arms / hands at your disposal for any number of reasons (significant other grabs your arm out of fear, injuries, etc).


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## wade (Dec 31, 2006)

See, I told you I was screwed on this. You are all right and a friend of my who has been to the combat hand gunner course tells me the same thing. I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT. Ok, look at my picture, I'm a biker and I've been in a few situations where I've had to fight. I've ran security on bike runs had to handle drunks and things like that. I've never been in a situation where I've felt threatened enough that I have had to draw my weapon, it takes about 3 seconds for me to draw and chamber a round. I also never said I wasn't willing to use it. Why do I carry, self protection rom idiots in malls and Mycky D's and at work USPS 27 years, and because it's my 2nd amendments rights. I'm a card carrying member of the NRA an elk hunter  and a life time member of RMEF. I am not a gun slinger and have never thought of myself in this way. You will probably read about me getting sapped some day cause I wasn't prepared but, there is still freedom of choose and that is my choice.


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## Lisa (Jan 1, 2007)

wade said:


> See, I told you I was screwed on this. You are all right and a friend of my who has been to the combat hand gunner course tells me the same thing. I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT. Ok, look at my picture, I'm a biker and I've been in a few situations where I've had to fight. I've ran security on bike runs had to handle drunks and things like that. I've never been in a situation where I've felt threatened enough that I have had to draw my weapon, it takes about 3 seconds for me to draw and chamber a round. I also never said I wasn't willing to use it. Why do I carry, self protection rom idiots in malls and Mycky D's and at work USPS 27 years, and because it's my 2nd amendments rights. I'm a card carrying member of the NRA an elk hunter  and a life time member of RMEF. I am not a gun slinger and have never thought of myself in this way. You will probably read about me getting sapped some day cause I wasn't prepared but, there is still freedom of choose and that is my choice.



Thanks for the clarification, Wade.  I think, for me anyways, your avatar and what you posted didn't quite jive, know what I mean?   I appreciate the honesty and candor regarding your reasons.


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## JerryL (Jan 15, 2007)

I just love how one of the photos in the article about th useful things you learn shows someone clearing a weapon by putting one hand across in and just in front of the breech to cycle the slide. Definately not the preferred way to cycle a weapon for those who like their fingers.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jan 15, 2007)

JerryL said:


> I just love how one of the photos in the article about th useful things you learn shows someone clearing a weapon by putting one hand across in and just in front of the breech to cycle the slide. Definately not the preferred way to cycle a weapon for those who like their fingers.


 
Thats a fairly common way to clear a "smokestack" jam. Of course I prefer tilting the weapon "outboard" and dumping the round out as I "tap/rack/continue" but the sweep is a valid technique too.

Id put myself at a 4. Been close to 5 but not close enough to say so myself. Yeah, 4, not consistently, but enough. However I do find it convenient when authors write articles about how competition is as close to "real life" as you can get and, well what do you know, the authors a competition shooter. I take articles like that with a grain of salt.


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## kenpotroop (Jan 15, 2007)

Level 5, I'm in LE, I have been for 18 years. I've been a weapons instructor for 12 years and have been in all kinds of situations including getting shot before.


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## Kenpobuff (Jan 25, 2007)

Kenpotroop,

I feel slighted.  We've worked out for a few years now and you never told me that story.  I want to hear about it Sunday, if you don't mind telling it.

Steve


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## Kenpobuff (Jan 31, 2007)

Kenpotroop,

Great story.  Glad you survived to tell it.  Must be why you wear the Superman emblem on your vest.  Does your tat cover the scar?  Be more carefull out there, I don't want to run class more than I have to, lol.

Steve
Kenpobuff


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## Kenpobuff (Jan 31, 2007)

Kenpotroop,

After military training, courtroom security and being shot "at" I guess I am just a 4.  I'll tell you that story next Tuesday night.  In summary it was better to leave the scene safely than to shoot it out and maybe not leave at all.  I stll maintain my CC permit just in case.

Steve
Kenpobuff


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