# And Let Me Just Rant About Survivalists



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 10, 2016)

A recent thread pointed to some bizarre notions about punching with fists that was being perpetrated on a 'survivalist' forum.  That got my gears grinding.

Survivalists.  Great jumping road apples, folks.

If you're stockpiling canned food and water for the zombie apocalypse or for when TSHTF, you should just put a sign around your neck announcing you're a moron.

That is, unless you can also do a few other things that the average survivalist seems willfully ignorant of.

Do you have fire extinguishers around your dwelling?  Do you know how to use them?  Do you know what kind of extinguisher to use for what kind of fire?  Have they been inspected recently, do you know they work?

Do you have a plan to escape your home in the case of fire or natural disaster?  Have you practiced it?  Do you have a family plan for meeting up outside when evacuating, so no one goes racing back into a burning building to save someone who is standing safely somewhere else and you just didn't know it?

Do you have a stockpile of the medications you need, or prescription eyeglasses you wear?

These people have little surgical kits that they proudly wave about and go on and on about which one is best, but have any of them EVER stitched up a wound?

They've got eleventy-dozen firearms and enough ammunition to start a small war, but they can't read a lensatic compass or plot a route on a topographic map, nor do they even have topographic maps of their own territory.

They stockpile gold and other valuables but don't have a plan to get fuel to keep their generators running or to fuel a vehicle to leave the area after a month or six.

They've got camouflage everything and all their gear is 'tactical', but they don't have a stockpile of socks or underwear, or feminine products, etc.  They've got buried caches of weapons and money, but they don't know how to use a pick and a shovel properly.

And yeah, they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Frankly, if TSHTF for real, I'm just going to find a nearby survivalist and take their stuff.

If you want to 'survive', folks, learn to read a map.  Learn to tell what kind of clouds make tornadoes and what kinds of floods are likely in your area.  Join local groups that *actually* do survivalist-type stuff in your community, like the CAP, Sky Warn, REACT (if they're still around, dunno), and other groups that actually are made up of citizen volunteers who have the training, equipment, and desire to pitch in and help during an emergency.  If you want to be a 'survivalist', practice surviving the threats that are MOST LIKELY to occur, like your house catching on fire, not a thermonuclear event.

Silly people.  Take off the camo makeup and learn to dig holes, stitch wounds, and put out fires.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 10, 2016)

Survivalists are all making the assumption that when the SHTF they will be among the ones who make it back to their hideouts to suit up in their gear and welcome the new age.  They assume they will NOT be among those swept away in the flood, or trapped in the traffic jam while everyone flees the city, or trampled to death by the frightened hoards.  And then turned into a zombie.

That's a pretty big assumption to make.  Gotta survive the first few days in order to even have a chance to become a survivor.  If it really is as bad as their assumptions are, that's a tall order.


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## granfire (Feb 10, 2016)

It's their own version of Hollywood....they won't be the Black Guy or the guy in the Red Shirt....or the screaming Cheerleader....


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## Steve (Feb 10, 2016)

great post, but a bit ironic in this forum, where we encounter the same mentality if on a bit smaller scale with regards to self defense.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 10, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> zombie apocalypse


This is why I always have my Miao Diao (Chinese long sword) ready. I won't depend on my fire arms. My Miao Diao is long and heavy enough to cut off any zombie's head.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 10, 2016)

While I am not one of the people who have a stockpile of weapons, I am quite familiar with the prepper or survivalist. 
I think the biggest assumption is on the part of the posters here. I agree with the logic as stated here and have never heard any different from a survivalist.  There may be wacky jobs out there but they should not be lumped in with the rest any more than the MA wack jobs who believe in chi balls should represent you and your martial art.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 10, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> While I am not one of the people who have a stockpile of weapons, I am quite familiar with the prepper or survivalist.
> I think the biggest assumption is on the part of the posters here. I agree with the logic as stated here and have never heard any different from a survivalist.  There may be wacky jobs out there but they should not be lumped in with the rest any more than the MA wack jobs who believe in chi balls should represent you and your martial art.



I can't claim to have meant that many survivalists, but the ones I have didn't impress me as the... practical sort.

As to Martial Larpists, yep.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 10, 2016)

Some people I have met through Boy Scouts are what I call "Accidental Survivalists". They know everything there is to know about camping/hunting/fishing/surviving in the woods just from sheer experience. They've also taken "Be prepared" very seriously, and have prepared for many of the things you've referred to, but they would never consider themselves survivalists. Despite not having a bunker, or a years worth of canned food stockpiled, if TSHTF, you can bet that my first goal, after initial survival, is trying to somehow meet up with one of them. That would significantly raise my chances, especially since they dont talk about it to every goddamn person they meet.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 10, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Some people I have met through Boy Scouts are what I call "Accidental Survivalists". They know everything there is to know about camping/hunting/fishing/surviving in the woods just from sheer experience. They've also taken "Be prepared" very seriously, and have prepared for many of the things you've referred to, but they would never consider themselves survivalists. Despite not having a bunker, or a years worth of canned food stockpiled, if TSHTF, you can bet that my first goal, after initial survival, is trying to somehow meet up with one of them. That would significantly raise my chances, especially since they dont talk about it to every goddamn person they meet.



Pretty much describes all my cousins from central Illinois.


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## Buka (Feb 10, 2016)

I suppose it's like Martial Arts, everyone does it differently. Some of it is good, some not so much so.

If/when TSHTF - be the predator that you are.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 10, 2016)

Preppers, prepare for a situation that may never materialize.
Martial artists prepare for a situation that may never happen.

For one to put down the other,,,isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.
Same inherent fears...different hobby.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 10, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't claim to have meant that many survivalists, but the ones I have didn't impress me as the... practical sort.
> 
> As to Martial Larpists, yep.


I'm sure you have met more than you think.  Real survivalist don't go around talking about it.  That way nobody thinks to go to his house to "take it" as you say.


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## Blindside (Feb 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't claim to have meant that many survivalists, but the ones I have didn't impress me as the... practical sort.



There is this whole "grey man" concept that a lot of the more practical preppers take to heart.  And you might be surprised that they even know about generators and fire extinguishers and emergency calling trees and medicine.  Incidentally, financial management and having a good retirement plan is a part of prepping, it isn't just end of the world stuff.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Preppers, prepare for a situation that may never materialize.
> Martial artists prepare for a situation that may never happen.
> 
> For one to put down the other,,,isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.
> Same inherent fears...different hobby.



Preppers who can't even put out a kitchen grease fire, but have 10,000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo stored aren't preppers. They're LARPers. Martial Arts have some of those too.


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## Buka (Feb 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Preppers who can't even put out a kitchen grease fire, but have 10,000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo stored aren't preppers. They're LARPers. Martial Arts have some of those too.



You're talking about a good buddy of mine. H's got 50,000 rounds and twenty guns. And not one God damn clue. Not one. I love him anyway, though.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't claim to have meant that many survivalists, but the ones I have didn't impress me as the... practical sort.
> 
> As to Martial Larpists, yep.



I have been invited to a couple of their private or semi private forums for discussion and input. 
Once I explain that nothing within 100 miles of Michigan and the Great Lakes will survive or you do not want too, they get frustrated. The fact that the Great Lakes is the largest fresh water source in the world and is ground zero or ground one for Nuclear bomb exposure. 

Ok, so none Nuke scenario , I mention field books and mountain climbing books for how to set broken bones and treat while in the field, and they seem surprised. 
I mention that their Vegetable oil in the garage in jugs is loosing its viability as the UV light is affecting it. I then explain they need to put into tanks under the ground, of 3 to 6 feet depending upon if top soil or clay. If Clay one could get away with three, but is still above the frost line so go below the frost line for best long term storage. 
Also be prepared to cycle it out as you test it. 

The Meds and glasses are big ones most people forget. 

I know some that talk about their storage of watches and gold will give them trade. I said for day one and a sandwich - maybe. 

They are not system people and do not think it through.


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## Flatfish (Feb 11, 2016)

Well dang it, y'all took all my illusions away and now I have to sell all my crap....


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## Andrew Green (Feb 11, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Preppers, prepare for a situation that may never materialize.
> Martial artists prepare for a situation that may never happen.
> 
> For one to put down the other,,,isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.
> Same inherent fears...different hobby.



No, I don't think so.  It's all about mindset.

There are "survivalists" that actually do stuff because they enjoy it.  They go off into the wild and actually do stuff.  Build shelters, snare things, hunt, etc.  Maybe it's their job in some way.  I'd take a forest ranger over a canned food guy as a buddy in a zombie apocalypse overtime. Or maybe it's just what they enjoy.

There are martial artists that are the same.  Some are in it for competition, some good jobs that involve physical confrontations regularly, some just enjoy it and do it for fun.

No one looks at other sports and says "pfft... when are you ever going to need to hit a fast ball in real life, why are you preparing for that?"  

That said what we focus on is what becomes a part of us.  Personally I think that whether it is focusing on the highly unlikely event of a apocalypse or the highly unlikely event of someone randomly attacking me are both rather unhealthy and I prefer to focus on more positive aspects of training.  Like having fun and staying in shape


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## mograph (Feb 11, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Some people I have met through Boy Scouts are what I call "Accidental Survivalists". They know everything there is to know about camping/hunting/fishing/surviving in the woods just from sheer experience.


I know a guy like that: in excellent shape, was in the military, wilderness guide, good with tools, can improvise, all that stuff. He's not a zombie-apocalypse type of survivalist, but he would know what to do "in case."

I told him that if TSHTF, we'd head over and hang out with him.
He deadpanned that if it came to that, he'd just kill us and feed us to his dog.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2016)

Buka said:


> You're talking about a good buddy of mine. H's got 50,000 rounds and twenty guns. And not one God damn clue. Not one. I love him anyway, though.


Any idea how much all that hardware costs?  How do people afford it?


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## Buka (Feb 11, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Any idea how much all that hardware costs?  How do people afford it?



He was a trust fund baby (lucky guy!) so never really had to work. He recently installed three gun safes in his garage. Big ones where their base goes many feet down under the concrete. He told me what they cost but I forget. As for the hardware - I don't know, but he only buys new and from the trendiest gun shops in L.A. so I can only imagine.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2016)

Buka said:


> He was a trust fund baby (lucky guy!) so never really had to work. He recently installed three gun safes in his garage. Big ones where their base goes many feet down under the concrete. He told me what they cost but I forget. As for the hardware - I don't know, but he only buys new and from the trendiest gun shops in L.A. so I can only imagine.


Yah, wow.  I'm guessing each gun cost between $500-1000? Ammo, depending on caliber and brand, could be as high as $2.00 per round from a trendy shop in L.A.  Much cheaper for .22, of course.  Big gun safes like that plus installation, and whatever accessories, scopes, cases, holsters, cleaning supplies, etc...

Without knowing any real details, probably well well over $100,000


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 11, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A recent thread pointed to some bizarre notions about punching with fists that was being perpetrated on a 'survivalist' forum.  That got my gears grinding.
> 
> Survivalists.  Great jumping road apples, folks.
> 
> ...


I simply learned what States have tornados, and avoid those States. Problem solved.


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 11, 2016)

I see you saw the thread I posted, It made me roll my eyes too. So much stupid can be found on that forum.


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 11, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Preppers, prepare for a situation that may never materialize.
> Martial artists prepare for a situation that may never happen.
> 
> For one to put down the other,,,isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.
> Same inherent fears...different hobby.



I don't agree with this because I am much more likely to enter competitions where I will have to fight and I am more likely to be attacked by a person trying to harm me then let's say; being attacked by mutant aliens from the planet phobos or cornered by a horde of blood thirsty zombies.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 11, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Any idea how much all that hardware costs?  How do people afford it?


If you save your shells, you can reload bullets yourself.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 11, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't agree with this because I am much more likely to enter competitions where I will have to fight and I am more likely to be attacked by a person trying to harm me then let's say; being attacked by mutant aliens from the planet phobos or cornered by a horde of blood thirsty zombies.



You missed my entire point. 90% of preppers do not believe in zombies nor are they thinking about an apocalyptic post nuke world. They are thinking of the next power outage, the next ice storm or the next tornado. Things that have happened to them in the past and want to be ready for next time.
Stop believing in the extreme examples.  This is like believing in chi balls or that a gang of "bloods and crips" is going to be vanquished by your supreme skills.
This was my point, there are extreme preppers and there are extreme MA people. But the bulk are just every day people with a hobby. Neither one any more realistic or un realistic then the other.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you save your shells, you can reload bullets yourself.


Ayup.  But if you've stockpiled 50,000 rounds, well, you had to buy them first even if they are all reloads.


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## granfire (Feb 12, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> You missed my entire point. 90% of preppers do not believe in zombies nor are they thinking about an apocalyptic post nuke world. They are thinking of the next power outage, the next ice storm or the next tornado. Things that have happened to them in the past and want to be ready for next time.
> Stop believing in the extreme examples.  This is like believing in chi balls or that a gang of "bloods and crips" is going to be vanquished by your supreme skills.
> This was my point, there are extreme preppers and there are extreme MA people. But the bulk are just every day people with a hobby. Neither one any more realistic or un realistic then the other.


But it's a sliding scale, and I think a lot of them that draw attention to themselves (which I think is the sub-species we are talking about, the ones with 50k rounds of ammo) seem to have some serious flaws in their strategies....I wonder if they are aware that most things except Honey have a shelf life.....


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 27, 2016)

Buka said:


> You're talking about a good buddy of mine. H's got 50,000 rounds and twenty guns. And not one God damn clue. Not one. I love him anyway, though.



Does he know how to use them? The problem with some of those people who get lots of guns is they never learn how to properly use them. And using a gun in a tactical situation is very different than using it for sport shooting or a fun day at the target range. Lots of people get guns and ammo but sadly don't get the training.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 27, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Yah, wow.  I'm guessing each gun cost between $500-1000?


A high end gun can cost way more than that and especially considering that this guy sounds like he likes high end stuff I would assume his guns, at least some of them, cost way more. Some of the really high quality guns are hard to find even in the most trendy gun shops, you have to call up order them.


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## Tgace (Feb 27, 2016)

Real world, everyday, "could happen to you" survival? Zombie Apocalypse prep should be 1% of your plan. Prepare for the most likely threats.

Guns, bug-out-bags, living off the grid plans. Those are all well and good, but IMO they are low probability items.

Take this from someone who has been trapped in his house (with and without power) for days when blizzards have struck....life in Buffalo NY...

Have at least a week of food in your house. I'm not saying full meal plans, stock some extra jars of peanut butter, have some canned goods stocked away (hell even some cans of pie filling, or chicken soup). Pasta can be boiled and eaten as is....not the tasty solution but it's food. Cereal stores long and can be eaten dry. Canned tuna. Etc.etc.

Buy some plastic water jugs, fill them and put them away somewhere. I empty and refill them every spring.

Have some way to cook with the power off. I have a gas stove. Even with the power out I can use a lighter to ignite. My gas grill has an extra tank and can be pressed into service year round.

Own some tools, buy a shovel (snow and spade), buy a gas can and keep it fresh/full. Crank powered radios/lights are handy. Candles. Matches/lighters (keep grill lighters on hand...very useful).

If you don't live in the snow zone, be prepared for what is known to hit your area (floods, tornados, blackouts, etc).


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## ShawnP (Feb 27, 2016)

Tgace said:


> Real world, everyday, "could happen to you" survival? Zombie Apocalypse prep should be 1% of your plan. Prepare for the most likely threats.
> 
> Guns, bug-out-bags, living off the grid plans. Those are all well and good, but IMO they are low probability items.
> 
> ...



Tgace, isnt this regular winter season thinking for New Englanders ? TBH i think this way every night i head out to work, and every other day of the week i go shopping. i always by in 2s, make sure there is at leats 2 loaves of bread in the freezer, we always have that extra propane tank, and cans of gas for the generator, eTc.. you get the idea. if it is a Zombie outbreak i have my WWII machine made Katana for chopping heads off!


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## Buka (Feb 28, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> Does he know how to use them? The problem with some of those people who get lots of guns is they never learn how to properly use them. And using a gun in a tactical situation is very different than using it for sport shooting or a fun day at the target range. Lots of people get guns and ammo but sadly don't get the training.



Nah, he's primarily a target shooter, so, you know. He has been shot, though, during a car jacking. So, tongue in cheek I'll say, "he's got that going for him."


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 28, 2016)

ShawnP said:


> Tgace, isnt this regular winter season thinking for New Englanders ?


no this isnt how the average person thinks , even in new england.  the average person has three or four days of food in the house. and no water if they rely on the tap. a few years back here in new england we got hit with a major ice storm. power was out for some people for weeks and the temp was below freezing the entire time.  
no power means stores are not open, the new digital registers wont work.  people couldnt buy food or water and the gas stations were closed so people who had generators couldnt get gas.  you had to travel a good distance to find a store that was open but then everyone else was also trying to buy at that store so supplies in those towns ran dry and couldnt be re stocked fast enough.  
December 2008 Northeastern United States ice storm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it wasnt the end of the world but if you had children or were worried about  elderly parents it was stressfull.


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## ShawnP (Feb 28, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> no this isnt how the average person thinks , even in new england.  the average person has three or four days of food in the house. and no water if they rely on the tap. a few years back here in new england we got hit with a major ice storm. power was out for some people for weeks and the temp was below freezing the entire time.
> no power means stores are not open, the new digital registers wont work.  people couldnt buy food or water and the gas stations were closed so people who had generators couldnt get gas.  you had to travel a good distance to find a store that was open but then everyone else was also trying to buy at that store so supplies in those towns ran dry and couldnt be re stocked fast enough.
> December 2008 Northeastern United States ice storm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> it wasnt the end of the world but if you had children or were worried about  elderly parents it was stressfull.


yes i remember this storm, i lived through it with 2 other adults and 4 kids a dog and a cat, i spent almost $600.00 that week preparing for it, i would assume so didn't everyone else, but i guess not.
we got through that storm just fine, plenty of food and water extra cans of gas for the generator to run basic electricals in the house. it was just a vacation for me from work, thats it.


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## Tgace (Feb 28, 2016)

One of the major “disconnects” I see amongst the “preparedness types” is the belief that survival means stocking up on weapons and ammo and defending what is YOURS. While that may in fact be a concern depending on your location and situation, the reality is that true “survival” through major incidents really depends on the help of other people…and you helping them.

Our American pioneer ancestors knew that they had to be “self-reliant” to survive out on the frontier where help was not guaranteed or readily available, but they also knew that “living” for the long term required the help of others. Those “others” may have simply been numerous family members who were required to divide the labor (and hence LARGE family’s) to neighbors who lived a few miles away that you could trade goods with (lessening both your work loads) and get help from in times of need. “Self-Sufficiency” means not being a burden on others and being able to live for a period on your own, it doesn’t mean preparing to be the “last man on earth”.

The fact of the matter is that “lone wolf” survival…while possible for the short term…is a losing proposition for the long term. The “mountain man” of frontier myth had a dirty little secret, they were not known to have had long lifespans. The successful ones only “lived off of the land” long enough to make their fortunes in trapping and business exploration before returning to society. Besides the known difficulties of weather, scarcity of food and medical care, the fact of the matter is that the workload of having to “live off of the land” is staggering.

From the family, to the tribe, to the village, to State…Country, the ultimate purpose of them all is economy of effort. We have farmers to supply food so others of us can provide medical care. We have construction workers build our homes so that others of us can make clothing. In an emergency, while you better be able to provide for yourself for a significant period of time; if things look like they may go on for a long time, you will need to help others and you will need their help as well. Like it or not, any life worth living will depend on the good will of others.


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