# Academic Requirements



## dleeret (Mar 28, 2008)

The school I attend requires school aged students (K-12) to have a grade of C or better in all classes in order to participate and test.  Black Belts are required to have a B or better.  Do any other schools have this requirement?  Personally, I like it because I have three kids in TKD and they know they need to keep their grades up.  B and better students (for the entire school year) get a small eagle for the back of their dobok.  Straight A students for the entire school year get a large eagle.  Most of out students get one of the eagles.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 28, 2008)

i like this idea alot


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## chrismay101 (Mar 28, 2008)

I agree its one way to get kids to do better. But not everyone is made the same. one kid may do 10 min homework and still walk away with A's another may do 2 hours and still manage C's but who has worked the hardest! getting to black belt should be about hard work in Taekwon-do. how good you are in school shouldn't have anything to do with it.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 28, 2008)

We have one student who has a patch that says "Academic Club" or some such thing, but he makes very good grades, all of the time.

Any student who practices very long and hard will eventually have a stronger brain, so no problem.  Even if they don't make good grades, they will have a stronger mind if they keep on practicing.


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## chrismay101 (Mar 28, 2008)

I just don't see what school has to do with TKD. If they have done well at school stick the patch on there school uniform.
I agree if a student practices long and hard he/she will improve there grades but that could be from say an F to a C. but there are some people who don't have to try, they are just good at school work and seem to get A's what ever.
so who should get the Patch? the person who's worked hard to get a C or the person who's rolled up and always gets A's.

Being a black belt should be about patterns, sparring, set sparring, breaking, korean teminology.

On my ITF grading card it dosen't mention being good at maths, english, history, PE(gym).


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## newGuy12 (Mar 28, 2008)

Right.  Our School does not make the students have certain academic grades.  If the student DOES have very good grades, though, it will sometimes be mentioned at the testing, if they have VERY good grades.

But during practice, who cares about this?  No one -- we are all working on kicking and punching.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 28, 2008)

I think this is an excellent idea - being a black belt is not simply about physical ability - there are certain other requirements of the rank.  Especially for kids of that age, being able to maintain good grades is important.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 28, 2008)

I used an "academic achievement" patch for grade school students. I base it on 2 consecutive report cards. In concert with parents about the child's abilities, I look at the 1st report card. If they are, say, B's, the child will get the patch at the next report card if the B's are maintained or the grades are better.

If the child is only capable of C's, the C's (or better) need to be maintained in order to get the patch. If the grades are maintained or better on report cards after that, they get a small star patch.

No one but the child, parents & I know what grades each child got.


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## matt.m (Mar 29, 2008)

As an instructor I have told my kids that they have to put homework and tests before class.  If I get a parent telling me that their grades are slipping out of laziness then they have to bring them up before returning to class.

Another requirement I ask of my students is one of taking ownership of their own training.  By this I mean if you cant make it to class one night then call and let me know.  I think it is disrespectful for students in general to go a.w.o.l. from class without reason.

For the past 3 weeks I have had one student call me, he is 17.  He told me "Mr. Morton, I have test tomorrow, S.A.T.'s, something academically related to his school work."

So I find a time where he and I can get together so he doesn't fall behind and keep him up to date on the cirriculum he will or has missed so he doesn't fall behind and will be able to test along with the other testing candidates.


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## YoungMan (Mar 29, 2008)

Our organization has always maintained academic requirements for attendance, testing, and black belt testing. A 2.0 average is required for gup testing, while a 3.0 average is requirement is required for Dan testing.
The Chung Do Kwan logo contains a fist clutching a scroll. Clearly, GGM Won Kuk Lee wanted Chung Do Kwan students to be good scholars as well as physically fit. As a result, we require all school-age students to maintain good grades
Otherwise, you run the risk of encouraging the stereotypical dumb jock.


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## terryl965 (Mar 29, 2008)

We have always included this in out training as well.


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## Ping898 (Mar 29, 2008)

My school never had it, personally I don't mind policies like that, I think they help emphasize the intangibles of MA, as long as they are not set in stone.  When I was growing up, the only requirement for grades was that I do my best, so if in one class my best was a C and in another it was an A that was fine.  So if a student has less than C's, I think a discussion needs to be had with the parents and the student of did the student do the best job possible and if so then no penalty to testing or training should be applied.
In college, (and I know most here are talking K-12, not college) I was a 3.5 student, but there was one semester where my GPA was about a 2.2, why?...cause I missed over 3 weeks of classes because of deaths in my family and when you are an engineering student, 3 weeks of classes is a big deal.  There are just times you don't know the underlying causes of something, they aren't excuses, merely what occurred that had a negative impact, so as long as those can be taken into account when they are known....then I think these policies are a good idea...


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## Laurentkd (Mar 29, 2008)

We "require" B's and better from our students. However, if a student comes in with lower grades than that then we are looking for improvement on each report card.  What I find interesting is I that every kid that has a grade lower than a B also has missing assignments (I am talking elementary and middle school here).   If I had a student who was working hard and still could not receive a B then we would obviously have to adjust the requirement for that child.  But, at least around here, it seems that if you turn in all your work or do any of the many extra credit assignments available everyone should be capable of a B (doesn't say much for our academic schools maybe?)
Once kids are in high school we have hopefully instilled some good habits, and we just encourage them to do their best.
I think academic standards are important for two reasons. The first is, martial art instructors are highly motivating to their students! I can't begin to tell you how many kids who didn't try in school no matter what their parents said who then are suddenly A students was the sahbomnim has mentioned he wants good grades from his students! And I think anything we can do to motivate our children to do well in school needs to be used.
Secondly, if I am going to teach a child dangerous martial art techniques, I do not want to be training a thug.  I want him to understand that martial artist should not care just about fighting, but also about doing well/being leaders in society in general.  That includes doing well in school, not being disrespectful to adults, taking care of their bodies, etc.
I just think that anything we can do to help them succeed we should be doing IMHO


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## granfire (Mar 29, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> And I think anything we can do to motivate our children to do well in school needs to be used.
> Secondly, if I am going to teach a child dangerous martial art techniques, I do not want to be training a thug.  I want him to understand that martial artist should not care just about fighting, but also about doing well/being leaders in society in general.  That includes doing well in school, not being disrespectful to adults, taking care of their bodies, etc.
> I just think that anything we can do to help them succeed we should be doing IMHO




We have the 'Partners in learning' program where the teacher's input is required. The academic teacher gets to award starts to the junior students that they get to put on their belts, that does include grades as well as conduct. we strongly advocate that all the juniors do that.

Like my trainer emphasises: If you don't do your work in school and get lazy we don't want you as a Black Belt.

legend or truth, the Hwa Rang have set a high standard, as well as the Samurai.


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## chrismay101 (Mar 29, 2008)

Must be an american thing! I agree that school comes first but I don't think it should have any impact on TKD prctice unless and this goes with anything if the activity is 100% set up by the school. then yes I would kind of agree.


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## Miles (Mar 29, 2008)

We do "academic achievement" patches for those students who have a B or better average in school.  One thing I've noticed over the past 10 years is that most of the kids earn the patch.  I think part of the reason is that if the parent is involved enough with the child to train with them in TKD, they are also involved in helping them study their academic subjects.

Miles


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## granfire (Mar 29, 2008)

Miles said:


> We do "academic achievement" patches for those students who have a B or better average in school.  One thing I've noticed over the past 10 years is that most of the kids earn the patch.  I think part of the reason is that if the parent is involved enough with the child to train with them in TKD, they are also involved in helping them study their academic subjects.
> 
> Miles




well, for starters the parents taking the kids to TKD are a bit more involved, but also the requirements in some areas have slipped some...


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## jks9199 (Mar 29, 2008)

chrismay101 said:


> Must be an american thing! I agree that school comes first but I don't think it should have any impact on TKD prctice unless and this goes with anything if the activity is 100% set up by the school. then yes I would kind of agree.


If you market your martial arts program as being aimed at kids and making kids better, especially if you add the before and after school programs (AKA daycare without admitting it), you have to pay some sort of attention to the academic side of things.

In my classes -- we've simply made it very clear in the youth program that schooling comes first.  That's as far as we've pushed the issue -- but we aren't a professional program targetting kids, either.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 29, 2008)

dleeret said:


> The school I attend requires school aged students (K-12) to have a grade of C or better in all classes in order to participate and test. Black Belts are required to have a B or better. Do any other schools have this requirement? Personally, I like it because I have three kids in TKD and they know they need to keep their grades up. B and better students (for the entire school year) get a small eagle for the back of their dobok. Straight A students for the entire school year get a large eagle. Most of out students get one of the eagles.


 

OMG YES!  i hate it so much well because im a junior in highschool and i couldnt test one time because i got grounded cuz i got an F on one of my classes which is usually math.  i was SO pissed off i didnt talk to my mom for like three weeks no joke.  :cuss:  if we turn in our report cards with A's and B's the instructor reads it at the end of class to everyone and u go up and recieve a patch saying like black belt excellence or something i dont remember.  i only got one because i was in summer school (like always) and i only had two classes so i got A's in both.  :flushed:

i hate it so much.  one time my mom gave it to my shihan and they were like almost straight C's and one F (in math of course) and he said that i had 3 strikes.  that was the first one, next one would mean that he would take me to Mr. Fisher (shihans teacher and my sparring instructor) and then the third strike would be that i would get kicked out until my grades got better.  :barf::bird::hb:

this was in freshmen year and my pe teacher verbally assualted her students and actually called someone a ***** and she gave everyone in that class F's and shihan gave me a paper with all my subjects and i had to get it sighned by each teacher saying that i turned in my homework or for pe saying that i participated.  since my pe teacher cant watch everyone if she didnt look my way then how could she "see" me participating?  so she gave me F's but she got fired that year so shihan let it slide and plus it was at the end of the year so i only had to keep it up for so long. 

and its not like im a faliure in life or school.  i get decent grades not A's or straight A's but my grades usually consist of maybe one B mostly C's and one F if im doing math.

but this year is actually better than normal.  i have two A's, a B, a C, a D, and a F.  im not embarassed.  im proud of it.  last year ws straight C's and a F.  im failing one class and passing the rest.  ive heard that you're supposed to have ten of those patches  in order to get to black but they dont enforce it.  thank god.  its K-12 and im in 11th with one patch and the school year is alomst over and im going to be black belt in a manner of months to a year.  plus theres 4 quarters in a school year so even if i tried starting now...............i would only 5 patches if i get good grades starting now.  yeah right.................:bs1::lol::lool::disgust::shrug::bs::BSmeter:

next year i should get all A's with the classes im getting since i hav sinority cuz ill be a senior (i dont hav math :highfive::cheers: or chemistry which im not doing to good in either)  so ill probably get 4 and together id hav 5.  wow half of the requirements. 

that puts a ton of unwanted and uneeded stress on teens anyway.  they're already going through hell/highschool and getting good grades to succeed in something u enjoy is bs. i LOVE karate.  its my life.  its what makes me get up everyday.  karate is suppose to be fun i mean its a sport and why do ppl participate in sports?  for enjoyment, to get away from stress, to be happy.  how can u _be happy _when u cant get pass a point because of ur grades?  grades and karate are two different things and should have nothing to do with each other.  

if i dont pass a belt testing for example, does that mean i cant pass a class too?  no it doesnt so it shouldnt be vice versa either.  my goal is to become not only a black belt but a teacher and a studio owner.  that is my future career in life.  so if u think about it if i dont pass a single class that ruins my whole chance in my future career.  isnt school, teachers, and family encouraging u to do everything and anything to help u acheive ur future career/goals?  well in my case thats taking away from it and its not like im failing every class.  i would understand if i was.  im not.  im failing one class only because im learning theoritical equations that i will never need in life unless i become a rocket scientist or any other career that has to do with a lot of big and little numbers that i will never concsider.  

its simple.  if i dont get all of these equations then obviously none of those careers are for me are they?  its ridicules.  i understand if someones in elementry school or middle school and are failing there classes because obviously they're going to need to pass in order to get anywhere in life because u need at least a high school diploma in order to get into most careers.  but i know what im doing and i get can get a high school diploma and i can go to college too with the grades ive had.  my future is set and for teens that dont hav there future set then yeah they'll need motivation but i dont think that stopping a belt testing or a chance to get there black belt is the proper motivation especially if they start late and only hav a certain amount of time to get the good grades b4 a belt testing for example.

no...i dont think its right i mean at least for teens my age for a lot of them have jobs too to think about and grades arent going to be there number one priorities.

like i said i can understand for elementrey school and middle school kids because they're younger and dont have a lot of things on there minds like most teens and adults.    

anyway thats my story on the whole report card bs.  

yeah parents like it; teens/kids hate it.  im a teen.  arent u glad u hav a variety in this little community?  lol


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## Fiendlover (Mar 29, 2008)

chrismay101 said:


> I agree its one way to get kids to do better. But not everyone is made the same. one kid may do 10 min homework and still walk away with A's another may do 2 hours and still manage C's but who has worked the hardest! getting to black belt should be about hard work in Taekwon-do. how good you are in school shouldn't have anything to do with it.


 
exactly.  i dont do my homework in german and i have a B.  i do every single assignment in math and i get an F. 

in a martial arts its about hard work and dedication and thats what i do so i should get what i deserve not get less cuz of grades in school.


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## granfire (Mar 30, 2008)

@ Fiendlover...roflmao, you got a tough life there, buddy!

(Either your math teacher suck badly or you need a tutor...math is logic, once the pieces fall into place it's easy! And that comes from somebody who is a complete numbers dork...takes me a year to learn my own phone number!)


But you are a prime example, actually, while yes, academic is important, but also that the work ethic needs to be reflected.

So not doing your German work should reflect worse on you then having an F in math when you did all the assignments.


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## jks9199 (Mar 30, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> OMG YES!  i hate it so much well because im a junior in highschool and i couldnt test one time because i got grounded cuz i got an F on one of my classes which is usually math.  i was SO pissed off i didnt talk to my mom for like three weeks no joke.  :cuss:  if we turn in our report cards with A's and B's the instructor reads it at the end of class to everyone and u go up and recieve a patch saying like black belt excellence or something i dont remember.  i only got one because i was in summer school (like always) and i only had two classes so i got A's in both.  :flushed:
> 
> i hate it so much.  one time my mom gave it to my shihan and they were like almost straight C's and one F (in math of course) and he said that i had 3 strikes.  that was the first one, next one would mean that he would take me to Mr. Fisher (shihans teacher and my sparring instructor) and then the third strike would be that i would get kicked out until my grades got better.  :barf::bird::hb:
> 
> ...



I've taken a bit of time to think about how I wanted to respond this.  I'm going to warn you -- this is going to be a bit of a rant.  And I'm going to address some misperceptions you have.

First, you're a kid.  You're JOB at the moment isn't karate, it's not playing video games, and it's not even earning money.  Your job is going to school to acquire the skills you need to become a contributing, useful member of society.  A high school diploma is the bare minimum to get in the door for most reasonable adult work that'll stand a reasonable chance of letting you actually live on your own, instead of in your family's basement.

You say that you think it's unfair that you have to get decent grades to participate.  Well, that kid on the high school football team, or wrestling, or cheerleading, or field hockey, or anything else has to meet academic eligibility requirements if he or she wants to play.  Why shouldn't you have to meet eligibility requirements to train?  'Cause it's not a "school sport?"  Lousy argument.  If it's a good thing for the school sports -- wouldn't it be a good thing for a non-school sport?  

You wonder what some of the classes have to do with the job you think you want now.  Well, let's see... in my early teens, I was sure that I was going get a degree in aeronautical engineer, go into the military, be a pilot, and become an astronaut.  H'mm...  by the time I started college, I was a civil engineering major.  When all was said and done, my degree is in administration of justice.  I'm a cop -- without a single hour towards a pilot's license.  But I use some of that math and science training all the time, in things like crash reconstruction.  I spend a lot of time writing -- and lessons learned in those English classes matter a lot!

Now -- I'm going to be more personal for moment.  Your writing, as evidenced here, is full of sloppy thought and poor habits.  I cannot encourage you to purchase and apply *The Elements of Style* forcefully enough.  I know, you're grades are good enough.  Let me steal a poem my teacher wrote:


> When "good enough" is good enough,
> We'll have trouble, can't you see,
> 'cause "good enough" isn't good enough for me.



And make writing and expressing yourself carefully and well a habit.  It'll make thinking carefully and well a habit.  That way, when it counts and there is no time to do it again -- you'll be able to do it right without trying.  It's just like martial arts training; you don't practice poorly and expect to perform well under pressure.

You've said you want to make teaching martial arts your career.  That's great.  Look at the various threads on school management; it's something of a long-shot.  Even buying into a very established program like your instructor's doesn't guarantee success.  In fact -- I'll bet that over the next 3 years, as the US economy struggles, you see many martial arts schools close their doors because they're a luxury to many students, and luxuries are dropped when budgets get tight.  (Contracts only help if people can pay...  If they're can't, you won't get but a tiny fraction in bankruptcies or by selling the debt.)  I'd encourage you to have a good back-up plan; you never know when you might suffer an injury that derails your current goal, apart from the business concerns.  I'd also suggest that, even if you're buying a turn-key program, you need a good business background if you don't want to fail.  (And that does involve more math than simple arithmetic.)

Now, that's not saying that every martial arts program for kids needs to closely monitor the students's grades.  I don't.  But my students all understand that school is the priority, not martial arts.  If there's ever a conflict -- school wins.  Yet, with coordination of the parents and the teachers, we have had students miss a day or two of school for clinics or tournaments.  And they've brought homework along, or had to write papers about the event to make up for the missed day.


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## Kacey (Mar 30, 2008)

I teach special education in a middle school, and I teach TKD.  I expect my students in both areas to do their best.  For most students, that means maintaining a C or better in all academic classes - but as a special education teacher I am also willing to work with individual students based on their particular needs - and that includes offering tutoring if needed.  My concern, with my TKD students who are in school, is that they do not neglect their school work for TKD - TKD will still be there when their homework is finished, and I will work around it.  If they neglect their school work for TKD, however, that is much harder to make up.

As jks said, when you are in school, that is your primary job; everything else is secondary.  Also, as a TKD instructor, if you cannot use the discipline you are learning in class to set your priorities correctly - then I have failed as an instructor, just as much as if I let a parent neglect his or her child to come to class, or as if I let a student lose a job because of TKD events - and how much worse would it be if I encouraged it, instead of simply allowing it?


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I've taken a bit of time to think about how I wanted to respond this. I'm going to warn you -- this is going to be a bit of a rant. And I'm going to address some misperceptions you have.
> 
> First, you're a kid. You're JOB at the moment isn't karate, it's not playing video games, and it's not even earning money. Your job is going to school to acquire the skills you need to become a contributing, useful member of society. A high school diploma is the bare minimum to get in the door for most reasonable adult work that'll stand a reasonable chance of letting you actually live on your own, instead of in your family's basement.
> 
> ...


 
i knew when i wrote my input i would get responses like this.  im not saying that in a bad way i respect what u hav to say and i really appreciate it.  im not a normal close minded/know-it-all teen which we get classified as.  i appreciate what u hav to say and i do hav fall back careers in case i dont get to own a studio.  ands it not that i suck tremendously at math.  my 8th grade teacher was going through a divorce and that entire year and his kids were leaving him.  he got fired and came to work at my highschool the next year which i would be going to that next year.  freshman year i passed with a B because im actually good at algerbra, then in sophmore year the grades were posted on the wall with assigned numbers of course so that its private but everyone except for a handful of people had F's.  he got fired too and then in summer school i sat with the same people i had in class and everyone in that class except for 4 all had my same teacher.  and i passed summer school with an A. this year it'll be my teachers first year teaching and she half the time doesnt know what shes doing.  this is geometry and she used to build bridges before so i guess that helps but like i said i do every assignment and im still failing and the homework is like 60% of the total grade and i get good marks on the homework.    so i dont know what's up with that.  

im trying and im trying my hardest but its obviously not working.  and like someone said some work hard and still get F's while others breeze by and get A's.  if anything then it should be based on the effort the student makes then the grade itself.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

granfire said:


> @ Fiendlover...roflmao, you got a tough life there, buddy!
> 
> (Either your math teacher suck badly or you need a tutor...math is logic, once the pieces fall into place it's easy! And that comes from somebody who is a complete numbers dork...takes me a year to learn my own phone number!)
> 
> ...


 
haha my math teachers suck.  they all ended up getting fired and i went to a tutor and he ask me why i was here because i got everything he showed me it wasnt like it was heiroglyphics.  

yeah im great at german tho.  the class isnt based around homework like math is.  i get german because he goes over it and over it again verbally since thats where its most important not nessicarily writing.  but geometry i suck at it when i do do all of the assignments.  it sucks.


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## chrismay101 (Mar 30, 2008)

Grades should be down to the mums and dads to worry about they can say if there kids go to training or not the martial arts instructor should worry about what he's teaching.
maybe people who promote kids if they have good grades should only teach kids who are A grade students that way you can cut out all the dead wood!
kids now adays have enough pressure with out stupid things like this. A kid should be a Black Belt on merit in TKD not on how good they are at long division!


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

chrismay101 said:


> Grades should be down to the mums and dads to worry about they can say if there kids go to training or not the martial arts instructor should worry about what he's teaching.
> maybe people who promote kids if they have good grades should only teach kids who are A grade students that way you can cut out all the dead wood!
> kids now adays have enough pressure with out stupid things like this. A kid should be a Black Belt on merit in TKD not on how good they are at long division!


 
agreed!  :cheers:


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## jks9199 (Mar 30, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> one time my mom gave it to my shihan and they were like almost straight C's and one F (in math of course) and he said that i had 3 strikes.  that was the first one, next one would mean that he would take me to Mr. Fisher (shihans teacher and my sparring instructor) and then the third strike would be that i would get kicked out until my grades got better.  :barf::bird::hb:
> 
> this was in freshmen year and my pe teacher verbally assualted her students and actually called someone a ***** and she gave everyone in that class F's and shihan gave me a paper with all my subjects and i had to get it sighned by each teacher saying that i turned in my homework or for pe saying that i participated.  since my pe teacher cant watch everyone if she didnt look my way then how could she "see" me participating?  so she gave me F's but she got fired that year so shihan let it slide and plus it was at the end of the year so i only had to keep it up for so long.
> 
> and its not like im a faliure in life or school.  i get decent grades not A's or straight A's but my grades usually consist of maybe one B mostly C's and one F if im doing math.





Fiendlover said:


> i knew when i wrote my input i would get responses like this.  im not saying that in a bad way i respect what u hav to say and i really appreciate it.  im not a normal close minded/know-it-all teen which we get classified as.  i appreciate what u hav to say and i do hav fall back careers in case i dont get to own a studio.  ands it not that i suck tremendously at math.  my 8th grade teacher was going through a divorce and that entire year and his kids were leaving him.  he got fired and came to work at my highschool the next year which i would be going to that next year.  freshman year i passed with a B because im actually good at algerbra, then in sophmore year the grades were posted on the wall with assigned numbers of course so that its private but everyone except for a handful of people had F's.  he got fired too and then in summer school i sat with the same people i had in class and everyone in that class except for 4 all had my same teacher.  and i passed summer school with an A. this year it'll be my teachers first year teaching and she half the time doesnt know what shes doing.  this is geometry and she used to build bridges before so i guess that helps but like i said i do every assignment and im still failing and the homework is like 60% of the total grade and i get good marks on the homework.    so i dont know what's up with that.
> 
> im trying and im trying my hardest but its obviously not working.  and like someone said some work hard and still get F's while others breeze by and get A's.  if anything then it should be based on the effort the student makes then the grade itself.





Fiendlover said:


> haha my math teachers suck.  they all ended up getting fired and i went to a tutor and he ask me why i was here because i got everything he showed me it wasnt like it was heiroglyphics.
> 
> yeah im great at german tho.  the class isnt based around homework like math is.  i get german because he goes over it and over it again verbally since thats where its most important not nessicarily writing.  but geometry i suck at it when i do do all of the assignments.  it sucks.



Apparently, it's never your fault if you receive a bad grade... but you're responsible for all the good grades.

It doesn't work that way.  

If a karate student were to say that the reason they failed a testing was their instructor, would you buy that at face value -- or would you suspect that maybe they didn't practice enough?  

As you move on in your education, you'll receive less and less support from the teachers.  Many college professors don't check routine homework at all; the student's performance on the tests and quizzes in class, or on papers they turn in are the evidence of whether or not they did the homework and paid attention in class.  In a large university, it's quite possible that the only time you actually see the listed professor will be the first class of the course; a teaching assistant will cover most of the classes.  You need to take responsibility for your education, rather than look to blame someone else for your grades.

And I'm going to break a sad fact of reality to you:  In life, it's often irrelevant how hard you tried to do a job or task -- it's only whether you accomplished the job.  Do you care if the surgeon really tried his best, or do you want him to remove the tumor?  Is it enough for you that the firefighters worked hard -- or do you want them to extinguish the fire.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Fiendlover - I feel for you...and I understand your plight.  I was one of those kids that never had to try in High School and still got A's.  Then I got to college and got a huge awakening.  JKS is dead on here - the professors couldn't care less.  I also spent a lot of time blaming my bad grades on professors.  It really took me a long time to learn that if I was doing bad - it was MY FAULT.  If I'm not getting it, if I'm doing badly on homework....then I need more time and effort.  Sometimes trying your best isn't enough, you have to go BEYOND what you think is your best and find a way.  If that includes tutors, Schaum's outlines, websites, privately talking to the prof....whatever it takes.  

But I've got to tell you, if you think that you'll never use this stuff again - marticularly math.....you are sorely mistaken.  Especially if you want to own a school.  You will get into more math than you ever wanted....it is called economics and management....and it's not easy.  

I'd also like to echo JKS that what you want in 11th grade is very very seldom what you end up in.  I wanted to be a musician and here I am 10 years later as an engineer.....and let me tell you - MATH IS MY BREAD AND BUTTER.  

Is it possible that you should spend LESS time at Karate and more time in Math?

We're pretty far from the original topic here, but Fiendlover brings up a very unique perspective - that of those who are affected.

And that makes me ask - what is the adult equivalent?  Is there one and should there be one?  We are basically talking about either time or a well rounded person, so do adults have an equivalent standard - or should they?


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## newGuy12 (Mar 30, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> haha my math teachers suck.  they all ended up getting fired and i went to a tutor and he ask me why i was here because i got everything he showed me it wasnt like it was heiroglyphics.
> 
> yeah im great at german tho.  the class isnt based around homework like math is.  i get german because he goes over it and over it again verbally since thats where its most important not nessicarily writing.  but geometry i suck at it when i do do all of the assignments.  it sucks.



Geometry is very nice, you should not give up.  If you have some question about it, you may wish to post the question on this board.  Perhaps some member here can explain it.  Also, it may be an opportunity for the members here to show off their skill in Math.  

We can't do the homework for you, of course, because we wish for you to actually gain the skill yourself, not just cheat, haha.  I myself am no slouch with math!  I am not a teacher, but, that is not totally necessary to help someone.

That's just an idea.  Please don't give up on the math, because it can be a LOT of fun, especially when you learn the algebra and the trigonometry.  You keep going, and finally you will get the reward -- the Calculus.  This is something that *you must not miss!*  With it you have *MUCH POWER!* 

Also -- math is more fun, because when you focus the attention on a nice problem, you can work through it while listening to rock-n-roll music if you wish.  It uses a part of the brain that is not distracted so easily, not like learning to interpret some literature, some novel, say.


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## granfire (Mar 30, 2008)

I hear playing pool is great for geometric understanding!


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## Ping898 (Mar 30, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> It really took me a long time to learn that if I was doing bad - it was MY FAULT.


See now I do agree with you there, but at some point the teacher also bears some responsibility.  I have a Math degree and I went through almost every professor in the department at least once, but the classes I did best in were the ones where the prof took the time to do more than regurgitate what was in the book.  If I could learn it just reading the book I wouldn't need to take the class.  I was the type of student who attended every class, had the supplemental materials, would be in a professor's office 2 or 3 times a week for help, there was no slacking, and in the end when God smiled on me and I found a good professor, I went to her for help in every class cause I knew she could explain things in a way I could understand and wouldn't get angry at me when I didn't understand it the first time.  I had a professor throw a pen and pad at me once cause he kept explaining the problem the same way over and over and I didn't get it.  Acted like it was my fault, I don't think so, if you are teaching the class, than it is your job to TEACH.  I finally left his office, went right to hers and 10 minutes later I understood it, why?...cause she didn't just explain it the same way again.
Though I know this post is off the topic of the thread, this is something I feel strongly about.  I have taken enough classes to know that while I am ultimately responsible for my own success or failure (and fiendlover has got a bit to learn about personal responsibility IMO), sometimes you can only succeed as much at the person there to teach you, cause trust me there are no good supplemental materials and very limited tutoring help if any for Advanced Calculus (i.e. like Calc 7), chaos theory, partial differential equations....etc....



MBuzzy said:


> I'd also like to echo JKS that what you want in 11th grade is very very seldom what you end up in.


This I also disagree with.  I knew by the time I was a freshman I would be an engineer and I had to fight my stupid guidance counselors every step of the way on it.  I knew I would not be going to a school that cared if I took 3 years of latin, sometimes you do know what you will be or at least the general subgroup you will be in...


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Apparently, it's never your fault if you receive a bad grade... but you're responsible for all the good grades.
> 
> It doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...


 

hahaha thats what my mom says.  "so its never ur fault ur grades are bad"

no but u have a great point.  but it seemed that i did excellent in those classes that the teacher wasnt going through family or private problems.  

alright i get that my best isnt enough so i guess ill hav to do better to get the job done as u say but i doubt that thats going to change.  and i hav changed my work efforts greatly which is why im actually getting A's and B's this year instead of lower grades like D's and i only hav the one F in math.   

but like ive said before i dont think that my grades even if its just the one bad one should affect my ability to advance in the ranks of my studio and its not like i _do _put karate above my class work anyway.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Fiendlover - I feel for you...and I understand your plight. I was one of those kids that never had to try in High School and still got A's. Then I got to college and got a huge awakening. JKS is dead on here - the professors couldn't care less. I also spent a lot of time blaming my bad grades on professors. It really took me a long time to learn that if I was doing bad - it was MY FAULT. If I'm not getting it, if I'm doing badly on homework....then I need more time and effort. Sometimes trying your best isn't enough, you have to go BEYOND what you think is your best and find a way. If that includes tutors, Schaum's outlines, websites, privately talking to the prof....whatever it takes.
> 
> But I've got to tell you, if you think that you'll never use this stuff again - marticularly math.....you are sorely mistaken. Especially if you want to own a school. You will get into more math than you ever wanted....it is called economics and management....and it's not easy.
> 
> ...


 
well im glad u understand.  and to answer this question... "Is it possible that you should spend LESS time at Karate and more time in Math?"  
i havent been to karate in a year and im still not currently in it as we speak.  i havent been because my dad has a serious illness that almost got him killed and ive been here with him and my family and in case anything happens i need to be close.  so this gives me plenty of time to go over my homework including math.  fun huh?

and yes im very aware of the fact that math will be everywhere in life and im taking economics next year.  im good at alegerbra. i got a B freshmen year and i got an A sophmore year in summerschool.  this year i hav geometery which has a lot to do with everything.  maybe in summerschool ill get an A too.  lol


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## MBuzzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Ping898 said:


> See now I do agree with you there, but at some point the teacher also bears some responsibility. I have a Math degree and I went through almost every professor in the department at least once, but the classes I did best in were the ones where the prof took the time to do more than regurgitate what was in the book. If I could learn it just reading the book I wouldn't need to take the class. I was the type of student who attended every class, had the supplemental materials, would be in a professor's office 2 or 3 times a week for help, there was no slacking, and in the end when God smiled on me and I found a good professor, I went to her for help in every class cause I knew she could explain things in a way I could understand and wouldn't get angry at me when I didn't understand it the first time. I had a professor throw a pen and pad at me once cause he kept explaining the problem the same way over and over and I didn't get it. Acted like it was my fault, I don't think so, if you are teaching the class, than it is your job to TEACH. I finally left his office, went right to hers and 10 minutes later I understood it, why?...cause she didn't just explain it the same way again.
> Though I know this post is off the topic of the thread, this is something I feel strongly about. I have taken enough classes to know that while I am ultimately responsible for my own success or failure (and fiendlover has got a bit to learn about personal responsibility IMO), sometimes you can only succeed as much at the person there to teach you, cause trust me there are no good supplemental materials and very limited tutoring help if any for Advanced Calculus (i.e. like Calc 7), chaos theory, partial differential equations....etc.......


 
Ok, I should qualify that.  The MAJORITY of times, it was my fault.  And I do mean MY fault.  But I definately have had a few teachers that were just HORRIBLE teachers or were incompetant.  It happens....and sometimes they just flat out don't like you.  I had one prof that I took Mechanics of Deformable Bodies with.  I got the professor and everyone I knew said "Drop it, you can't pass with that guy."  I didn't believe it, stayed in the class and failed....along with 90% of the class.  the dude had tenure and was permanently pissed at the world from some VERY hard personal times, so he got his kicks from failing all of his classes.  It happens......but I would say that if it is an ENTIRE SUBJECT and there is an excuse EVERY TIME, then it might....just MIGHT be user error.



Ping898 said:


> This I also disagree with. I knew by the time I was a freshman I would be an engineer and I had to fight my stupid guidance counselors every step of the way on it. I knew I would not be going to a school that cared if I took 3 years of latin, sometimes you do know what you will be or at least the general subgroup you will be in...


 
That is AWESOME and very commendable - but you have to admit that this isn't the norm.  Yes, it does happen, but I would theorize that with the majority of kids, this isn't the case.  And even if you have a dream and stick with it....it just doesn't always work out.  Like in Fiendlover's case....the guy just might not be cut out for math.  I mean, I do believe that with hard work and teachers that care enough, he will get it, but there are people that will just never get it totally.  Personally, I was lucky - I hated math in high school....I was decent at it, but I hated it.  But by college, with some hard work and some AWESOME teachers, I grew to love it.

You are right, sometimes you will know the general group that you're in....but heck, even look at college freshmen, how many end up in the major they start in?  I don't konw the numbers and I'm sure there are a lot, but it isn't as many as you'd expect.  I stayed in engineering for all 4 years.  But out of a group of 22 of us, who were ALL engineering, only 4 graduated in engineering.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Geometry is very nice, you should not give up. If you have some question about it, you may wish to post the question on this board. Perhaps some member here can explain it. Also, it may be an opportunity for the members here to show off their skill in Math.
> 
> We can't do the homework for you, of course, because we wish for you to actually gain the skill yourself, not just cheat, haha. I myself am no slouch with math! I am not a teacher, but, that is not totally necessary to help someone.
> 
> ...


 

haha with algerbra i can do that.  in fact i did do that.  i blasted my metal music and went through cuz im good with formulas but geometery......not so much.  i dont like it.  id rather do algerbra again.
but thanks for the advice.  posting something up is an idea i havent thought of b4.  ill see if i can try it though im not sure which category it should be under.  maybe they'll make one especially for me.  "Fiendlover's geometry questions"  

lol


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

granfire said:


> I hear playing pool is great for geometric understanding!


 
lol i shall try that


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

Ping898 said:


> This I also disagree with. I knew by the time I was a freshman I would be an engineer and I had to fight my stupid guidance counselors every step of the way on it. I knew I would not be going to a school that cared if I took 3 years of latin, sometimes you do know what you will be or at least the general subgroup you will be in...


 
yes i agree.  my career in life is dead set and if i dont get that then i hav other options that are also dead set.  ive been taking classes i need since freshmen year and ive talked to my councler about what classes i should take in order to be set for college for this career path.  

and the coolest thing is that im not the only one who is dead set on owning a studio either.  there are three others who are going to do this with me and even if neither of them end up doing it because i know i cant rely on others for _my _carerr path, ill still be on the path to acheive that goal even if they arent.  and im also trying to get a job at our head quarters right now too to help me understand how to run a buisness of my own.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Ok, I should qualify that. The MAJORITY of times, it was my fault. And I do mean MY fault. But I definately have had a few teachers that were just HORRIBLE teachers or were incompetant. It happens....and sometimes they just flat out don't like you. I had one prof that I took Mechanics of Deformable Bodies with. I got the professor and everyone I knew said "Drop it, you can't pass with that guy." I didn't believe it, stayed in the class and failed....along with 90% of the class. the dude had tenure and was permanently pissed at the world from some VERY hard personal times, so he got his kicks from failing all of his classes. It happens......but I would say that if it is an ENTIRE SUBJECT and there is an excuse EVERY TIME, then it might....just MIGHT be user error.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I'm a female thank you.  :shrug:


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## MBuzzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Fiendlover said:


> I'm a female thank you. :shrug:


 
  Opps, I'm so sorry....No offense was intended.  I'll help with math homework to make it up to you.


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## jks9199 (Mar 30, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> We're pretty far from the original topic here, but Fiendlover brings up a very unique perspective - that of those who are affected.
> 
> And that makes me ask - what is the adult equivalent?  Is there one and should there be one?  We are basically talking about either time or a well rounded person, so do adults have an equivalent standard - or should they?



I think there is an adult equivalent; it's just more draconian.

An adult either tends to their responsibilities outside of the school, or they can't pay the bills.  Or they suffer through divorce.  Or otherwise feel the repercussions in their life.

Adults and kids aren't the same.  And they don't have the same responsibilities.  After a certain point -- we have to accept an adult will handle their own balance of responsibilities.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Opps, I'm so sorry....No offense was intended. I'll help with math homework to make it up to you.


 
lol its alright ur not the first.


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## YoungMan (Mar 30, 2008)

The adult version might be this:
Our organization requires that adult students (especially black belts) make sure their life is on track before testing, particularly for higher level black belt.
That means, if you have a criminal record, can't keep a steady job, are failing school, or have developed a bad reputation for some reason, you will not test until these things are straightened out.
Much like school-age students with bad grades, we require adult students to have honorable personal lives to test.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 30, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> The adult version might be this:
> Our organization requires that adult students (especially black belts) make sure their life is on track before testing, particularly for higher level black belt.
> That means, if you have a criminal record, can't keep a steady job, are failing school, or have developed a bad reputation for some reason, you will not test until these things are straightened out.
> Much like school-age students with bad grades, we require adult students to have honorable personal lives to test.


 
hmmmmmmmmmmm that would be equal.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 30, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think there is an adult equivalent; it's just more draconian.
> 
> An adult either tends to their responsibilities outside of the school, or they can't pay the bills. Or they suffer through divorce. Or otherwise feel the repercussions in their life.
> 
> Adults and kids aren't the same. And they don't have the same responsibilities. After a certain point -- we have to accept an adult will handle their own balance of responsibilities.


 
True - but possibly putting this in writing will make it seem a bit more fair for the kids who are subjected to this.  Adults aren't the same, but we're the example for the younger generation....if I'm out of work, divorced, can't pay my bills, and living in a box.......should I have the right to test?  Seems to me that some standard should exist for both groups...if for no other reason than to show the younger students that we are serious about this and that everyone has to comply and be a well rounded overall person.



YoungMan said:


> The adult version might be this:
> Our organization requires that adult students (especially black belts) make sure their life is on track before testing, particularly for higher level black belt.
> That means, if you have a criminal record, can't keep a steady job, are failing school, or have developed a bad reputation for some reason, you will not test until these things are straightened out.
> Much like school-age students with bad grades, we require adult students to have honorable personal lives to test.


 
Agreed....I really think that Martial Arts isn't just physical and requires a more well rounded attitude....but why not uphold the same standard for all.  I think your school has it right.  It sets a bad standard to tell kids "You have to meet these standards" but tell adults "You just have to pay."


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## Hand Sword (Mar 30, 2008)

While I do understand the theory behind academics and do appreciate it, I've always disagreed about it. Rank advancement should be about achievement in the style or system's marterial. At least that's my very humble opinion.


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## YoungMan (Mar 31, 2008)

I remember years ago, one of my students (a transfer from a different organization-but that's another story) was ready to test. I had been to his house many times because we were the same age and often hung out together. I also knew he and his mom often didn't get along.
Bottom line: we sat down with the class Head Instructor (I was not Master level yet) to discuss his testing. We told him that technique-wise he was ready. However, he would not be allowed to test until he cleared things up with his mother. His personal life was just as important as his technique.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

Admirable in intention, however, I feel something like that is of no one elses business but he and his mom. No one really knows the nature of the discourse between them. I feel that it should have nothing to do with instruction and advancement.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 31, 2008)

Hand Sword said:


> Admirable in intention, however, I feel something like that is of no one elses business but he and his mom. No one really knows the nature of the discourse between them. I feel that it should have nothing to do with instruction and advancement.


 
yeah i would agree.  its there buisness and it should be cleared up on there own terms not because there instructor is forcing them in order to advance in the ranks.


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## Bloodwillfollow (Mar 31, 2008)

I can understand as to the fact of a teacher or master using grades as a sort of test to see if you are ready for advancment.
but i do find flaw in the fact that yes different teachers may have a different effect on evryone and so forth but really what ever task you have been givin you should find a way to pass it even if it is good grades...
and if you dont find relevancy in the two and dont think they are tied they are..self disipline in the real world i think would have to be a great test


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

It could be viewed as such and there is good evidence, but, there was some famous and incredible martialartists that were uneducated and couldn't read. Thankfully these rules weren't in place for those pioneers of the arts! My only problem with it all is that for me--it's an invasion of your private life. Once one form is allowed any can be used after that. Your private life is your private life. Now, if you are being aggressive with the teaching outside, and it's known, that's something else.


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## Bloodwillfollow (Mar 31, 2008)

grades have nothing to do with smarts i know trust me.but im not in the situation such as the one you people are discussing but  i find if the person isnt mentaly stable than they shouldnt be allowed to carry on.even if that means the master full of wisdom and knowledge might be able to help you out you should most likely listen...but i agree the person should be able to do it on there own and if they cant they arnt ready


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

Oh, if that's what you were discussing--I agree wholeheartedly! Mentally unstable and martial skill should never go hand and hand!


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## Bloodwillfollow (Mar 31, 2008)

but if a wise man comes to you you shouldnt turn him down...and i think to reach the next level you can let down a personal wall (such as privacy)because in the end martial furtherment should overide privacy


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

That's where we disagree then. Privacy should never be over ridden for martial art promotions IMHO.


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## Bloodwillfollow (Mar 31, 2008)

than you not sacrificing something will in the end stoping you from achieving a new level in thinking and wisdom..hmmm some little problem as a kid with a mom issue cant be overidin for self advancment...hmmm
i see flaw but i understand as to how privacy can be the up most important..perhaps cuz you  are hiding something?
sacrifice is a great tool for advancment --though personal is very important i do agree


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

It's got nothing to do with hiding anything. No instructor, if you are of sound mind and judgement, has any right to hold back advancement, if qualified, because of a dislike or disagreement about a personal belief, way of living, etc.. That's your business. If I'm a Left winger and want my students to do work in that area, should a never advance a qualified student because of different political views? Religious views? No! It's none of my business or anyone elses. Sacrificing comes with training, blod, sweat and tears. That's good enough without the personal stuff.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

We'll just agree to disagree. For me, I say no to acafdemic requirements as part of rank advancement. If it's something seperate that gains incentives, then fine.


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## Fiendlover (Mar 31, 2008)

Hand Sword said:


> We'll just agree to disagree. For me, I say no to acafdemic requirements as part of rank advancement. If it's something seperate that gains incentives, then fine.


 
yes i would agree completely.  private and martial arts should be separate.


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## HebrewCossack (Mar 31, 2008)

The school that I am training at as some Academic requirments but they arnt really enforced. I try hard in school but all I can pull are C's. My Master is pretty cool about it. He also happens to be my German teacher.


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## YoungMan (Mar 31, 2008)

Keep in mind, every instructor is different. However, in this case, his home situation was resulting in many negative feelings that carried over to how he treated his fellow students (short fuse, disrespect, tendency to overreact etc.).  As a traditional organization, we believe in Taekwondo as a holistic Way of Life.
In this case, since his home life was causing negative behavior that affected others, we felt it was in his best interest to get that cleared up before allowing him to wear a black belt from our organization. He did end up testing by the way. Never got past 1st dan.


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## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2008)

I've said several times that I support an academics before karate approach; I'm not saying that the ideal way to do this is to use a GPA requirement or check report cards.  I don't do either; instead, for youth students, we make it very clear to the parents that there is never a conflict between school and martial arts.  School wins, hands down.  A very promising student had to drop out because his grades suffered -- but that was his parents's call.

I am aware of one school that does things a little differently.  They check the kids's grades -- and if their grades aren't satisfactory, instead of working out -- the kid does homework.  This is, in part, a reflection of the community where many of the parents wouldn't make the kids do school work or just couldn't help them, and where it's much, much preferable that the kid be in the school, not on the streets.


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## chrismay101 (Mar 31, 2008)

How about some sort of test in english, maths and lets say science and if you don't pass your not clever enough to do martial arts!
now thats a great idea!!!!

it was mentioned before that adults need to have there life in order to be able to grade - O my GOD what rubbish! If my instructor started this sort of thing. He would just be a black belt not an instructor because he wouldn't have any students to teach.

I want an instructor to teach TKD. I don't need a life style GURU!



I do like this thread.


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## granfire (Mar 31, 2008)

well, considering that one of our aspireing instructors dropped off the face of the earth....doing meth as I have been told...not exactly I would want around me or my kids as influence...


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## MBuzzy (Mar 31, 2008)

granfire said:


> well, considering that one of our aspireing instructors dropped off the face of the earth....doing meth as I have been told...not exactly I would want around me or my kids as influence...


 
And that is a big point here.....When you test someone for rank, you are building the next generation's instructors.  I have HAD instructors who were dirtbags.  They didn't pay bills, got thrown in jail, etc.  Their primary job was a martial arts instructor and they were INHO completely worthless human beings, outside of MA.  And believe it or not....it affect their ability to teach and train.  First off - if you come in still hung over - not a good learning environment and a HORRIBLE example.  I don't care if they are the greatest martial artist in the world, how can they be respected?

But then there is the other idea that a black belt or any rank isn't just a measure of your martial arts ability - and that is the REAL debate.  If you think that the belt just shows how much you know and how good you are, that is fine, you don't need academics or "life style coaching."  But if you subscribe to the idea that a rank and martial arts in general is more of a whole person concept and a way of life....then you HAVE to have some other measure of one's outside performance.


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## Kacey (Mar 31, 2008)

I will say again:  I am a school teacher as well as a TKD instructor, and school comes first.  I put this on the same level as expecting my students - of whatever age - to put family before class.  It is a demonstration of responsibility - and if you cannot be responsible for your own life, for making good choices in general, then it will be hard for me to believe you will make good choices with what you are learning in class.  If your grades are good - great!  If they are not good - you will get help.  My concern is not so much with the grades themselves, as with the effort shown:  I am much more concerned about students with B's, and comments about lack of effort, than I am about students with C's, and comments about trying hard with something that is difficult for them.

Fiendlover, I really do understand what you're saying - but people might take you a little more seriously if you write in complete words instead of text-speak.


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## YoungMan (Apr 1, 2008)

As a black belt and future Instructor, you are a role model for students coming up. Whether or not you want to be is beside the point.
If someone could care less about school and grades, how do you expect them to care about representing themselves as a black belt from your organization? It also goes back to being a traditional practitioner of a Korean martial art. 
A hallmark of Oriental philosophy is respect for scholarliness and academics. One of the reasons why Asian-American students do well in school: their parents and family put a premium on education. If you incorporate traditional philosophy into your training, it is only natural academic excellence will exist side by side with hard training. Grandmasters like Won Kuk Lee understood this and made it part of his curriculum.


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## Fiendlover (Apr 1, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Keep in mind, every instructor is different. However, in this case, his home situation was resulting in many negative feelings that carried over to how he treated his fellow students (short fuse, disrespect, tendency to overreact etc.). As a traditional organization, we believe in Taekwondo as a holistic Way of Life.
> In this case, since his home life was causing negative behavior that affected others, we felt it was in his best interest to get that cleared up before allowing him to wear a black belt from our organization. He did end up testing by the way. Never got past 1st dan.


ok thats different.  if it affects ur martial arts training/teaching then yeah it should get cleared up b4 he becomes a black belt.


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## Fiendlover (Apr 1, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I will say again: I am a school teacher as well as a TKD instructor, and school comes first. I put this on the same level as expecting my students - of whatever age - to put family before class. It is a demonstration of responsibility - and if you cannot be responsible for your own life, for making good choices in general, then it will be hard for me to believe you will make good choices with what you are learning in class. If your grades are good - great! If they are not good - you will get help. My concern is not so much with the grades themselves, as with the effort shown: I am much more concerned about students with B's, and comments about lack of effort, than I am about students with C's, and comments about trying hard with something that is difficult for them.
> 
> Fiendlover, I really do understand what you're saying - but people might take you a little more seriously if you write in complete words instead of text-speak.


 
Right.  Old habits die hard.


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## YoungMan (Apr 1, 2008)

But even if he were a model student in class, we would still require adequate grades before testing.
Remember, black belt testing is a privilege not a right. We reserve the right to determine who tests and who does not, much like your parents reserve the right to say "You're not getting your driver's license until your grades improve."
And a high school or college has the right to withhold a diploma until your grades improve do they not?


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## IcemanSK (Apr 1, 2008)

Fiendlover,

I started TKD in high school & instantly feel in love with. I was a good student before TKD, but my grades fell off soon after I started. I poured ove MA magazines instead of hitting the books. When my sa bum found out, he set a standard (with my parents) for what my grades needed to be. If I didn't meet them, he wouldn't teach me! A bachelors & masters degree (& my own dojang) later, I am most grateful that he cared enough about me to be concerned with my whole life, not just my time in the dojang.

Look at some of the instructors we have on MT: Laywers, school teachers, college profesors. Even the full time school owners are very bright, well-rounded folks. Take it from an old guy, it matters.


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## YoungMan (Apr 1, 2008)

There is a good possibility I will be teaching Tae Kwon Do to teenagers with issues going on in their lives. You can bet grades will be a factor in their ability to test. If they don't maintain decent grades, they don't test. It's that simple.


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