# Can Tai Chi benefit a Karate practitioner?



## ThatOneCanadian (May 16, 2021)

Hello everyone! This is my first thread here and I know absolutely nothing about Tai Chi so my apologies if I sound highly uneducated. 

I am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate who has been interested in Chinese martial arts for a very long time. The circular nature of Chinese styles in contrast to Shotokan's very brutal, penetrative motions intrigues me, so much so to the point where I want to cross-train Tai Chi with Shotokan. With that being said, I have a few questions about Tai Chi:

1.) Is it a good idea to cross train Tai Chi with a hard art such as Shotokan?

2.) With many martial arts, they say you cannot learn them from a book/video, with most people insisting that learning them in-person from an actual instructor is vital. Is this the case with Tai Chi? Is it possible to learn Tai Chi from an online class or video and still get the same benefits, or is participating in a class recommended?

3.) To my knowledge, there are multiple styles of Tai Chi, with some being more external/hard and others being more internal/soft. How do I figure out which one is which? Is one more common than the other?

4.) Can Tai Chi by itself improve flexibility? Could this improvement be noticeable in a young, healthy adult? Or is it be more beneficial to older or less mobile individuals?

5.) Can Tai Chi help with the synchronization of the lower and upper body in physical activity? This is something I struggle with in Karate, particularly with kata (or taolu, which I think is the Chinese term), a practice in which body synchronization is vital.

6.) Is Tai Chi a good art for someone who is recovering from a leg injury? My right knee got dislocated a little less than a month ago and, while it's largely healed, I'm limited in terms of high-impact physical activity.

7.) *Final question for people who do both Karate and Tai Chi*: do you notice any overlap between Tai Chi patterns and Karate kata? The connection between Chinese and Okinawan/Japanese arts fascinates me.

I hope these questions aren't too much. Feel free to answer any of them at all, even if just one.


----------



## MadMartigan (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> 2.) With many martial arts, they say you cannot learn them from a book/video, with most people insisting that learning them in-person from an actual instructor is vital. Is this the case with Tai Chi? Is it possible to learn Tai Chi from an online class or video and still get the same benefits, or is participating in a class recommended?


I can't speak with a great deal of knowledge here; and can only point out a parallel in my experience. I have never done Tai Chi.
I took up Wing Chun after over 18yrs in an old, very Karate-like Tae Kwon-Do style. The lessons I learned there on creating forward energy while blocking and moving from new stance positions have been transformative in my TKD forms. This didn't happen on it's own. I had to put the time in to find the parallels and understand how these techniques were really showing the same end from different perspectives.
I believe that a book could not have taught these lessons. You need a real teacher to show you how these movements work... not just how they look.
My WC Sifu told us that there are many similar lessons and applications between Tai Chi and Wing Chun (as long as you find a teacher who know them and didn't just take a fitness and movement class in the park).


----------



## Faith (May 16, 2021)

I practiced karatea few years ago within a new style named "Makotokai". They have combined several elements from Tai Chi in it like breathing excerices, stands, rooting and so on. 





						Makotokai Karate
					

Makotokai Headquarters




					makotokai.com
				








						Makotokai Neijia
					

Makotokai Headquarters




					makotokai.com


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Hello everyone! This is my first thread here and I know absolutely nothing about Tai Chi so my apologies if I sound highly uneducated.
> 
> I am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate who has been interested in Chinese martial arts for a very long time. The circular nature of Chinese styles in contrast to Shotokan's very brutal, penetrative motions intrigues me, so much so to the point where I want to cross-train Tai Chi with Shotokan. With that being said, I have a few questions about Tai Chi:[/QUOTE}
> 
> ...


----------



## punisher73 (May 16, 2021)

Private Site
		


Very famous Shotokan master studied both.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

This new forum software is driving me nuts. It keeps throwing in quotes so I will have to answer each question in a separate post


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Hello everyone! This is my first thread here and I know absolutely nothing about Tai Chi so my apologies if I sound highly uneducated.
> 
> I am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate who has been interested in Chinese martial arts for a very long time. The circular nature of Chinese styles in contrast to Shotokan's very brutal, penetrative motions intrigues me, so much so to the point where I want to cross-train Tai Chi with Shotokan. With that being said, I have a few questions about Tai Chi:[/QUOTE}


It can help, if you put in the time. I trained with several Karate folks over the years in Taijiquan, even trained a few, and of all of them, only 1 Uechi-Ryū stuck it out long enough. The biggest issue I have seen with Karate folks and TKD folks, is relaxation in the form and application. You tend to be very stiff


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> 1.) Is it a good idea to cross train Tai Chi with a hard art such as Shotokan?



Depends on what you are looking for and how much time, and effort, you plan on dedicating to it


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> 2.) With many martial arts, they say you cannot learn them from a book/video, with most people insisting that learning them in-person from an actual instructor is vital. Is this the case with Tai Chi? Is it possible to learn Tai Chi from an online class or video and still get the same benefits, or is participating in a class recommended?



No, for that matter, depending on what you are looking for, you may not even find it in a class. Most teaching Taijiquan today ONLY know taijiquan as a moving meditation. But again, it all depends on what you are looking for and what you hope to get out of it


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> 3.) To my knowledge, there are multiple styles of Tai Chi, with some being more external/hard and others being more internal/soft. How do I figure out which one is which? Is one more common than the other?



There are no hard/external taijiquan styles, there are just those with obvious fajin and those without obvious fajin. All taijiquan styles are labeled internal

The main schools are Chen, Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu and Sun. There are others but those are the main families, there is also Cheng Manching style (an offshoot of Yang) and Zhaobao possibly in that group too. It is highly unlikely you will find a Zhaobao, Wu/Hao. or Sun school, but they are out there. What you will see most is Yang and most teaching Yang are only teaching moving meditation. There are also a lot of Cheng Manching teachers out there, but again not all train it as a martial art. And then there is Chen. More likely to find martial arts taught, but i n the newer generations of the Chen family (20th generation) it is not so much martial taijiquan as it is Sanda/Sanshou.

Note: there are various Wu family styles, Northern Wu and Southern Wu and possible Shanghai Wu as well



ThatOneSyrian said:


> 4.) Can Tai Chi by itself improve flexibility? Could this improvement be noticeable in a young, healthy adult? Or is it be more beneficial to older or less mobile individuals?



More likely to see the improvements in someone less flexible to start with. But you will see improvements. And from a Karate perspective you will see an improvement in flexibility based on proper relaxation



ThatOneSyrian said:


> 5.) Can Tai Chi help with the synchronization of the lower and upper body in physical activity? This is something I struggle with in Karate, particularly with kata (or taolu, which I think is the Chinese term), a practice in which body synchronization is vital.'



kata and Taolu? modern Wushu maybe. Do you mean Dalu? If so they are not the same

Upper and lower unity is what Taiji does. It is what most internal arts do (Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Liuhebafa) but a lot of Chinese martial arts styles are working for whole body unity



ThatOneSyrian said:


> 6.) Is Tai Chi a good art for someone who is recovering from a leg injury? My right knee got dislocated a little less than a month ago and, while it's largely healed, I'm limited in terms of high-impact physical activity.



You need to talk to your doctor about that, I will not give medical advice since I am not qualified to do so.



ThatOneSyrian said:


> 7.) *Final question for people who do both Karate and Tai Chi*: do you notice any overlap between Tai Chi patterns and Karate kata? The connection between Chinese and Okinawan/Japanese arts fascinates me.



Couldn't tell you, I never trained Karate for more than 2 weeks. But I doubt it, none of the karate folks I know that tried, or did, taijiquan ever said anything about similarity. Most struggled with the relaxation of the form and developing power without hard karate movements and the occasional kiai...which does not exist in taijiquan


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 16, 2021)

Well the whole multiple quote thing is a lot harder and more time consuming than it use to be


----------



## Buka (May 16, 2021)

I consider myself a hard core Martial Artist, Karate, Boxing, Kickboxing, BJJ and competing in anything and everything for a long time.

But Tai Chi? Tai Chi is da bomb. It's like medicine for your soul and medicine for your other arts, both inside and out.

But you REALLY need a Tai Chi instructor to teach you for a while.

And @Xue, thanks again for hooking me up and getting me back in it a few years ago.


----------



## dvcochran (May 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Hello everyone! This is my first thread here and I know absolutely nothing about Tai Chi so my apologies if I sound highly uneducated.
> 
> I am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate who has been interested in Chinese martial arts for a very long time. The circular nature of Chinese styles in contrast to Shotokan's very brutal, penetrative motions intrigues me, so much so to the point where I want to cross-train Tai Chi with Shotokan. With that being said, I have a few questions about Tai Chi:
> 
> ...


1.) Yes and YES! Cross any opposing styles, any styles at all really is a very, very good thing. I was fortunate that My MDK TKD GM is also experienced in Kung Fu. I was learning circular movements before I really knew there was a difference. But they blend and work very effectively with a 'head on' style like Shotokan. 

2.) I am in the camp that video/online is very good for supplementation but is not a good teacher on it's own. 

4.) With time and smart, dedicated effort any style should help a person's flexibility. 

5.) Are you asking for Tai Chi can make you more coordinated? Sure, I cannot see why not.

6.) As others have said, talk to your doctor. Any kicking style is going to bear risk to a compromised knee. 

7.) Over time you should recognize that some of the movements are the same basic movement. But they will most always be done quite differently. Finding the benefits and/or connections in each can be a really, really cool thing.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2021)

When you add Taiji principle into Karate, you will lose that 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, and still 1, 2, 3, 4, ...


----------



## _Simon_ (May 17, 2021)

Faith said:


> I practiced karatea few years ago within a new style named "Makotokai". They have combined several elements from Tai Chi in it like breathing excerices, stands, rooting and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Faith, that style looks awesome, definitely something I'd train in if it were closer!


----------



## _Simon_ (May 17, 2021)

Great to see a Shotokan practitioner aboard, welcome!!!

As others have said, aaaabsolutely it would help. I don't practice Taichi, but many people have said how much it had helped them.

I do however every now and then practice my katas in a "Tai-chi style" way, very very slowly and in a relaxed way (of course that's not the whole picture of Tai Chi). But I've found that very helpful for my practice and I've learned alot from it.


----------



## mograph (May 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> 1.) Is it a good idea to cross train Tai Chi with a hard art such as Shotokan?


Sure, as long as you know which one you're doing, and know why you are performing specific actions. You might find some conflict, because good taijiquan (tai-ji-chwan) distributes effort throughout the body, rather than concentrating it in one place. Maybe that's a problem, maybe not.


ThatOneSyrian said:


> 2.) With many martial arts, they say you cannot learn them from a book/video, with most people insisting that learning them in-person from an actual instructor is vital. Is this the case with Tai Chi? Is it possible to learn Tai Chi from an online class or video and still get the same benefits, or is participating in a class recommended?


You can only roughly learn choreography from a DVD, and certainly not from a book. It is essential to learn from a teacher, but the _writings_ in a book (not the pictures) can supplement your teaching. I like the book _Nei Jia Quan_ for that purpose.


ThatOneSyrian said:


> 3.) To my knowledge, there are multiple styles of Tai Chi, with some being more external/hard and others being more internal/soft. How do I figure out which one is which? Is one more common than the other?


Taijiquan doesn't make a hard/soft internal/external distinction. You probably want Chen style, which differs in that it is more _likely_ that you will learn martial applications in a Chen class, and I think you want that. Yang is most popular, but not a lot of classes teach applications. I can't speak for Wu or Sun, but Wu/Hao apparently uses much smaller movements; good for people who practice Zhan Zhuang and Yiquan.


ThatOneSyrian said:


> 4.) Can Tai Chi by itself improve flexibility? Could this improvement be noticeable in a young, healthy adult? Or is it be more beneficial to older or less mobile individuals?


Yoga is better for flexibility. One assumes that you stretch _outside_ of taijiquan class, on your own. Beware of classes that incorporate stretching into the form: you get bad stretching and bad taijiquan.


ThatOneSyrian said:


> 5.) Can Tai Chi help with the synchronization of the lower and upper body in physical activity? This is something I struggle with in Karate, particularly with kata (or taolu, which I think is the Chinese term), a practice in which body synchronization is vital.


Yes, but you need to develop high sensitivity to be able to tell when you are out of sync. It's up to you more than it is up to the art. Move more slowly, quiet your mind, listen to your body sensations, and be calm.


ThatOneSyrian said:


> 6.) Is Tai Chi a good art for someone who is recovering from a leg injury? My right knee got dislocated a little less than a month ago and, while it's largely healed, I'm limited in terms of high-impact physical activity.


It's low-impact, but you will be asked to put weight on one leg more than the other. Watch a video of a set and see if you can do what they are doing.


ThatOneSyrian said:


> 7.) *Final question for people who do both Karate and Tai Chi*: do you notice any overlap between Tai Chi patterns and Karate kata? The connection between Chinese and Okinawan/Japanese arts fascinates me.


I don't do Karate, but I think you might find more similarity between Taijiquan and Goju-Ryu (more circular), not Shotokan (more linear).

If you can find anywhere that teaches Yiquan, Taikiken, or Zhan Zhuang, I recommend those, as they are good conditioning for any martial art. But they're hard to find.

Hope that helps.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (May 17, 2021)

All of these replies are more than what I expected o_o wow thank all of you. I'm reading that Hirokazu article as we speak. Osu!


----------



## TCJ (May 18, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Hello everyone! This is my first thread here and I know absolutely nothing about Tai Chi so my apologies if I sound highly uneducated.
> 
> I am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate who has been interested in Chinese martial arts for a very long time. The circular nature of Chinese styles in contrast to Shotokan's very brutal, penetrative motions intrigues me, so much so to the point where I want to cross-train Tai Chi with Shotokan. With that being said, I have a few questions about Tai Chi:
> 
> ...


Hello, I have enjoyed your questions. Answers have much to do with your intentions. Much of tai chi today is for health though there are still many schools that teach it for self-defense. The forms are similar, if not the same. 

Answers to your questions:

1.) Years ago I knew someone who was quite good at Uechi Ryu. He learned some tai chi and started to win kata competitions at tournaments. He felt that it was the tai chi that helped him. I knew another Uechi student who had incredible tension. His muscles were chronically tense. He found tai chi challenging.

2.) You can learn tai chi basics from a video but a video can't tell you what you are doing wrong. How far do you wish to go? 

3.) Of the 5 traditional (orthodox) styles of tai chi, Chen Style looks most like a martial art. It separates yin and yang, resulting in slow/soft movements and hard/fast movements. The other styles promote hardness within softness. This is a difficult concept to grasp and takes a lot of work to achieve. In the traditional styles the goal is to feel chi and move it with intention.

4.) Tai chi can improve flexibility. It does so by releasing tension from the inside out. I've known young people with a lot of tension and tai chi helped.

5.) Much of tai chi and its advancement has to do with integrating upper and lower body movement. Tai chi teaches to create a sort of chain of movement where all is connected. 

6.) Tai chi can be very good for knees but there are important rules for avoiding damage. Done correctly, tai chi can improve knee health with smoother internal surfaces and increased production of synovial fluid.

7.) I don't know of an overlap of patterns between tai chi and karate. I have never practiced karate. I have heard that Tang Soo Do was based on tai chi to some degree. I don't know how. Karate is linear, tai chi is very round (the movements tend to use a lot of curves and turns.) 

Tai chi practice would probably be good for a karate student. But, to achieve high level tai chi skills, one has to lose tension. It's a concept called 'song.' Song involves softness and opening the joints. That goes somewhat counter to hard style arts. 

I hope this is helpful. 

   - TCJ    taichicrossroads.blogspot.com


----------



## Hanshi (May 18, 2021)

While I know next to nothing about Tai Chi I did train under a teacher for a little more than 6 or 7 months maybe longer.  yes the knees felt it big time, and the thighs.  I've always trained primarily in the "hard" styles, karate, taekwondo, judo.  But I never had a problem with relaxed muscles & movement.  I stopped the tai chi simply out of growing boredom and time constraints.  An interesting thing I quickly noticed was that my aikido training fell right in line with the tai chi as both required relaxation.  I had some hard style students who could never do aikido because they simply couldn't relax or let their arms and legs become "whips" instead of the rigid battering rams they practiced with.  One problem with some practitioners is too much reliance on strength - which is only one constituent of "power" - instead of "true power".

One common misconception is that studying "hard" styles makes it difficult to relax; this is not necessarily so.  There is little true power in a tense karate punch; 98% of that punch should be in a relaxed state with tension only applied at moment of contact.  Similarly, boxing punches should properly be thrown _from_ a relaxed state or they will be slow and lose power.  But boxing differs in that while karate speeds into and through the target a boxing punch actually slows slightly at impact.  Karate punches cause deep damage while a boxer wants to snap the opponent's head for a knockout.  So any "relaxing" style bestows benefits beyond simply learning a a style such as tai chi.  Tai chi can't _help_ but enrich a karate experience.


----------



## Graywalker (May 18, 2021)

I have trained in both. Yes, there are similarities, especially in the stances and some strikes.

I would say that the Force/Flow concept is inherent in both arts. Although Tai Chi is slow moving, during practice but in combat the motions are much quicker in the delivery.

It would be ok to cross train in both and I believe very beneficial as well. But of course, I am in the camp that all styles are basically, at there core, pretty much the same.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (May 18, 2021)

TCJ said:


> Hello, I have enjoyed your questions. Answers have much to do with your intentions. Much of tai chi today is for health though there are still many schools that teach it for self-defense. The forms are similar, if not the same.
> 
> Answers to your questions:
> 
> ...


About the first point: wow, that's exactly where my mind is going with this! I really love doing kata and want to really get that relaxation/synchronization right. I'll try to follow in your friend's footsteps. 

About Tang Soo Do: TSD itself was based entirely on Shotokan. The art that was created after TSD became TKD, Soo Bahk Do, was based on Shotokan, but included the Chil Sung forms based on Tai Chi (which teach relaxation/tension) and the Yuk Ro forms based on *the Tan Tui pattern of West Chinese Kung Fu (which teaches power through stance transitions).* SBD's entire movement philosophy itself is based on these two sources. My TSD teacher was actually former SBD exponent and they taught me a few of the relaxation/synchronization concepts they knew, and the more I read about Tai Chi, the more similarities I see between what they taught me from SBD and what Tai Chi is said to teach.

As with everyone else, thank you for the reply. :3



Hanshi said:


> While I know next to nothing about Tai Chi I did train under a teacher for a little more than 6 or 7 months maybe longer.  yes the knees felt it big time, and the thighs.  I've always trained primarily in the "hard" styles, karate, taekwondo, judo.  But I never had a problem with relaxed muscles & movement.  I stopped the tai chi simply out of growing boredom and time constraints.  An interesting thing I quickly noticed was that my aikido training fell right in line with the tai chi as both required relaxation.  I had some hard style students who could never do aikido because they simply couldn't relax or let their arms and legs become "whips" instead of the rigid battering rams they practiced with.  One problem with some practitioners is too much reliance on strength - which is only one constituent of "power" - instead of "true power".
> 
> One common misconception is that studying "hard" styles makes it difficult to relax; this is not necessarily so.  There is little true power in a tense karate punch; 98% of that punch should be in a relaxed state with tension only applied at moment of contact.  Similarly, boxing punches should properly be thrown _from_ a relaxed state or they will be slow and lose power.  But boxing differs in that while karate speeds into and through the target a boxing punch actually slows slightly at impact.  Karate punches cause deep damage while a boxer wants to snap the opponent's head for a knockout.  So any "relaxing" style bestows benefits beyond simply learning a a style such as tai chi.  Tai chi can't _help_ but enrich a karate experience.


I was just gonna say, I've actually heard from Muay Thai and Boxing coaches the whole "relax your shoulders" talk. I'm glad that you say Tai Chi can enrich the Karate experience. After all, that is my goal.


----------



## _Simon_ (May 19, 2021)

Ah and @ThatOneSyrian I forgot to mention, check out Rick Hotton Sensei's YouTube channel too, highly highly recommend watching some vids. He's Shotokan but is all about transitioning out of robotic, tight, mechanical karate into more relaxed, flowing, synchronised, connected and natural movement.



			https://youtube.com/channel/UCekOUbElva0WIWCkB14nOfA
		


I also train online with him fortnightly, his teachings have seriously transformed... well... everything about my karate haha. PM me if interested in the classes at all


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (May 20, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah and @ThatOneSyrian I forgot to mention, check out Rick Hotton Sensei's YouTube channel too, highly highly recommend watching some vids. He's Shotokan but is all about transitioning out of robotic, tight, mechanical karate into more relaxed, flowing, synchronised, connected and natural movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen quite a few of his videos. His kata is some of the best I've ever witnessed. I'll be sure to consider his classes at some point!


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (May 25, 2021)

TCJ said:


> Hello, I have enjoyed your questions. Answers have much to do with your intentions. Much of tai chi today is for health though there are still many schools that teach it for self-defense. The forms are similar, if not the same.
> 
> Answers to your questions:
> 
> ...


I've been teaching and practicing American Kenpo for 50 years. I looked around and tried arts until I accidentally found Kenpo one day. I'm a small guy 5'2"and American Kenpo fits me and works for me (I've used it for self defense several times over the years and it's fast and effective. It's made up of several styles of Kung Fu and one style of hard style karate --about 15-20 percent. You have the benefits of circular and lines in movements, mostly circular. I tried tai chi many years ago and I found it very dry and not what I was looking for. I have found my kenpo great for self-defense and for keeping the body limber. People think I'm 30 years younger than what I am because I can move fast and bend over or down like a much younger person. Try American Kenpo, you might like it. Today most studios are incorporatiing jujitsu into it which I don't like, unless they only teach how to get off the ground. But you can always declind the ground stuff and just learn real Kenpo. Hope this helps you.
Sifu
Sifu


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2021)

By using Taiji principle, a Karate guy can understand that the end of your current move can be the beginning of your next move. This way, all moves are linked together, and there won't be 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, and still 1, 2, 3, 4, ...


----------



## mikib (Aug 13, 2022)

ThatOneCanadian said:


> Hello everyone! This is my first thread here and I know absolutely nothing about Tai Chi so my apologies if I sound highly uneducated.
> 
> I am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate who has been interested in Chinese martial arts for a very long time. The circular nature of Chinese styles in contrast to Shotokan's very brutal, penetrative motions intrigues me, so much so to the point where I want to cross-train Tai Chi with Shotokan. With that being said, I have a few questions about Tai Chi:
> 
> ...


Taichi will benefit you Karate but unfortunately Karate will weight your Taichi.


----------

