# Hunting - split from Kukri vs Machette



## PhotonGuy

Buka said:


> I've been there several times. I know you'll find these things during your research but - if you rent a car, they drive on the left in South Africa, if you've never done that before, the first few days are really confusing, especially turning. A lot of the car rentals are manual transmission, if you want an automatic you need to request it. And you need a locking gas cap. Any picture driving license is valid, so you're all set.
> 
> You need a cell phone. Find out if yours will work there. But if you use it a lot the international rates will cost you a bootload. (seriously) Depending on how long you're staying, might be better to get one there, and their service. I think the emergency number is 10111.
> 
> If you plan on traveling by bus - bad guys always work the bus depots, _always_, so be careful. If you're in the cities at night, stay away from the business or night districts. If you're marked as a tourist they'll eat you alive. Just don't go to those places at night.
> 
> If you are out and about, "in the woods" (more like dusty scrub) there's more to worry about than coyotes, wolves or bears. Always remember YOU ARE IN AFRICA. Besides the animals, they have seriously nasty snakes. Black Mambas, Puff Adders, Boomslangs in the trees and Cobras, all kinds of Cobras, and God knows what else. I'm quite sure you'll see them (at least I hope you _see_ them)
> 
> It's also the "murder by stabbing capital of the world", so behave yourself.



Thanks for the advice. Anyway, the company that I would be signing up with for the hunt, they provide transportation from the airport to the lodge and back. Every day you rise early in the morning and hunt all day and at night you stay at the lodge. I don't know what they do for communications so I will look into getting a cell phone there, or talking to my provider about international service. I will also ask the company about that. I've got a friend who is from South Africa and he says I should get along just fine speaking English as its a commonly spoken language there. Aside from that I am also looking for a partner for the hunt as you can save money if two people go.


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## Buka

PhotonGuy said:


> Thanks for the advice. Anyway, the company that I would be signing up with for the hunt, they provide transportation from the airport to the lodge and back. Every day you rise early in the morning and hunt all day and at night you stay at the lodge. I don't know what they do for communications so I will look into getting a cell phone there, or talking to my provider about international service. I will also ask the company about that. I've got a friend who is from South Africa and he says I should get along just fine speaking English as its a commonly spoken language there. Aside from that I am also looking for a partner for the hunt as you can save money if two people go.



I didn't realize you were going with a company/group. You should be all set. 
Everyone speaks English in South Africa. Not literally, but almost. (it's a nice accent to listen to, pleasant to the ear)

What kind of hunt are we talking about?


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## PhotonGuy

Buka said:


> I didn't realize you were going with a company/group. You should be all set.
> Everyone speaks English in South Africa. Not literally, but almost. (it's a nice accent to listen to, pleasant to the ear)
> 
> What kind of hunt are we talking about?



As of right now I can't afford to hunt any of the big five which would be elephant, 
rinoceros, cape buffalo, lion, and leopard. Hunting any of them is very expensive and besides I would want more experience hunting in Africa before I was to hunt any of them as they can be very dangerous. For the kind of hunt I will be going on I will be hunting game such as the blue wildebeest, the impala, and the warthog and if I am able to get a hunting partner it will be a five day hunt where I will save money. Otherwise it will be a seven day hunt for just me which will be quite a bit more expensive but I will also be able to hunt kudu and blesbok. The hunting fee that the company charges covers guide fees, license, meals, accommodations, drinks, and care of trophies. It doesn't cover airfare, gratuities, and taxidermy if necessary.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> As of right now I can't afford to hunt any of the big five which would be elephant,
> rinoceros, cape buffalo, lion, and leopard. Hunting any of them is very expensive and besides I would want more experience hunting in Africa before I was to hunt any of them as they can be very dangerous. For the kind of hunt I will be going on I will be hunting game such as the blue wildebeest, the impala, and the warthog and if I am able to get a hunting partner it will be a five day hunt where I will save money. Otherwise it will be a seven day hunt for just me which will be quite a bit more expensive but I will also be able to hunt kudu and blesbok. The hunting fee that the company charges covers guide fees, license, meals, accommodations, drinks, and care of trophies. It doesn't cover airfare, gratuities, and taxidermy if necessary.




Why? Why kill animals just because you can? You aren't killing for food just for the thrill of killing something that has been driven in front of your gun. Rhinoceros, elephants and leopards are endangered species so why help to make them extinct? Really, I'm afraid I find that disgusting. I'm sure you imagine that it's like being Hemingway but it really isn't, if you see what sort of reception people get when they post pictures of themselves posing with kills in the social media you might think twice about killing something that is far better left alive. Why not go on a photo safari which is what responsible people do.


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## Dirty Dog

I agree with Tez3 on this. Go shoot some pictures. Leave the guns at home.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Why? Why kill animals just because you can? You aren't killing for food just for the thrill of killing something that has been driven in front of your gun. Rhinoceros, elephants and leopards are endangered species so why help to make them extinct? Really, I'm afraid I find that disgusting. I'm sure you imagine that it's like being Hemingway but it really isn't, if you see what sort of reception people get when they post pictures of themselves posing with kills in the social media you might think twice about killing something that is far better left alive. Why not go on a photo safari which is what responsible people do.



Funny thing about the game farms is that they are actually in place to preserve the species. And fund the fight against illegal poaching. 

It is a complicated world we live in.


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## drop bear

Can Hunting Help Save Endangered Species


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## RhythmGJ

I am _not a hunter myself_, but I know plenty. They would argue (rightly, I'm afraid) about emotional assumptions regarding who "responsible people" are. Especially my late friend, wildlife expert/rehabilitator, vet tech, conservationist, author of the book "Creature Comforts," and avid shotgun hunter and falconer, Joel Thomas, to name one...

Hunting (and even fishing) are not for me; I gave up fishing years ago when I thought through the fact that I don't really eat them, so even throwing them back is at best an inconvenience to the fish; at worst a senseless maiming. But lots of fisherman do eat their catches, and so do lots (most?) hunters. Overpopulation and nuisance issues being a real problem with some species in some areas complicates things further. Certainly big game hunting of even non-endangered species in places like Africa, that carry lots of emotional/romantic idealization for some of us, adds to the confusion and nuanced layers in the dilemma. Personally, I would much rather shoot an animal with a camera than a rifle. But let's not assume that anyone that goes on a safari is "not a responsible person," or that economics for indigenous people don't come into play here either (loud and vociferous social media bashing of hunters by a small, perhaps one might say even "radical" minority notwithstanding).

Again, just pointing out that there is room for a wide variety of opinion on the subject, with lots more "unknowns" needing to become "knowns" (facts) before making grand assumptions regarding someone's character or level of responsibility is warranted, based initially on a simple question regarding trail blades........ if ever...

Just sayin'.



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## RhythmGJ

Ah-- Two guys got in ahead if me with much more to-the-point info and less verbiage. But again, it just goes to show...


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## Tez3

If I say I believe that having sex with a child is good people would jump on me from a great height because frankly there is no other right and responsible view other than that it wrong. To me there is no other argument than the killing of animals for fun is wrong, it's that simple. Killing for food, clothing etc is the only reason one should kill an animal.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> If I say I believe that having sex with a child is good people would jump on me from a great height because frankly there is no other right and responsible view other than that it wrong. To me there is no other argument than the killing of animals for fun is wrong, it's that simple. Killing for food, clothing etc is the only reason one should kill an animal.



I have to agree. Was not going to say anything as I think big game hunting is conducted by cowards. Poachers as well!!


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> As of right now I can't afford to hunt any of the big five which would be elephant,
> rinoceros, cape buffalo, lion, and leopard. Hunting any of them is very expensive and besides I would want more experience hunting in Africa before I was to hunt any of them as they can be very dangerous. For the kind of hunt I will be going on I will be hunting game such as the blue wildebeest, the impala, and the warthog and if I am able to get a hunting partner it will be a five day hunt where I will save money. Otherwise it will be a seven day hunt for just me which will be quite a bit more expensive but I will also be able to hunt kudu and blesbok. The hunting fee that the company charges covers guide fees, license, meals, accommodations, drinks, and care of trophies. It doesn't cover airfare, gratuities, and taxidermy if necessary.



Seriously dude, this is not cool. I would hope that the Lion would tear you a new one. Get a new hobby, the pain and suffering wrought by humans has gone far enough. Rhinos endangered and the Elephants are starting to dwindle in size. Hope you're gun blows up or you shoot yourself in the foot!


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## Tez3

Killing for pleasure can never be right.


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## Tez3

African lions under threat from a growing predator the American hunter Environment The Guardian


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## RhythmGJ

Wow. Again, while I'm inclined to agree with you to an extent, the tweaker side of me wants to ask "I wonder what their position is on unborn (_human_) right-to-life?" But that would just be causing a stir for the sake of it (and possibly pointing out a major inconsistency in the process) in a non-political Martial Arts forum, so I'll quit while we're all ahead...


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## Tez3

RhythmGJ said:


> Wow. Again, while I'm inclined to agree with you to an extent, the tweaker side of me wants to ask "I wonder what their position is on unborn (_human_) right-to-life?" But that would just be causing a stir for the sake of it (and possibly pointing out a major inconsistency in the process) in a non-political Martial Arts forum, so I'll quit while we're all ahead...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I would give it up because not only is it political but has no bearing whatsoever on what we were talking about...the killing of animals for *pleasure, remember the pleasure bit.*


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## Transk53

RhythmGJ said:


> Wow. Again, while I'm inclined to agree with you to an extent, the tweaker side of me wants to ask "I wonder what their position is on unborn (_human_) right-to-life?" But that would just be causing a stir for the sake of it (and possibly pointing out a major inconsistency in the process) in a non-political Martial Arts forum, so I'll quit while we're all ahead...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



All life is life, animal or human. But that will take the thread of topic.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Why? Why kill animals just because you can? You aren't killing for food just for the thrill of killing something that has been driven in front of your gun. Rhinoceros, elephants and leopards are endangered species so why help to make them extinct? Really, I'm afraid I find that disgusting. I'm sure you imagine that it's like being Hemingway but it really isn't, if you see what sort of reception people get when they post pictures of themselves posing with kills in the social media you might think twice about killing something that is far better left alive. Why not go on a photo safari which is what responsible people do.



I always eat what I kill so its not just for the thrill of it. And as for certain species being endangered that's why they have controls as to when they can or can't be hunted, game limits, seasons, ect. And some of these game are dangerous and will kill people and I don't just mean hunters but people. The elephant can kill up to 500 hippo can kill up to 3000 people a year. I personally couldn't see myself hunting an elephant but I could see myself hunting hippo or lion. And hunters are responsible too, at least those that obey hunting laws and hunt the proper way. Its the poachers, those that don't obey hunting laws, that are irresponsible. Do you ever eat meat or use animal products? If you do than you're eating and/or using something that was killed.


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## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> Funny thing about the game farms is that they are actually in place to preserve the species. And fund the fight against illegal poaching.
> 
> It is a complicated world we live in.



Well believe it or not but in the USA the white tailed deer was once an endangered species, now we have problem with there being too many of them.


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## seasoned

*Folks, lets get back on topic and please stop any name calling and such. *

Thanks,
Wes Yager
Senior Moderator


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## Buka

Tez3 said:


> If I say I believe that having sex with a child is good people would jump on me from a great height because frankly there is no other right and responsible view other than that it wrong. To me there is no other argument than the killing of animals for fun is wrong, it's that simple. Killing for food, clothing etc is the only reason one should kill an animal.



That is not the same. What you about talking about is illegal and not accepted anywhere on this planet. Hunting is not illegal and is widely accepted. I do not hunt, nor would I ever, but my personal feelings are not the point here.



Transk53 said:


> All life is life, animal or human. But that will take the thread of topic.



No, it's not. That's why there's a food chain and we sit atop it. Again, I would never hunt, but that's not the point.

We should get back on topic, though. Or end the thread,


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I always eat what I kill so its not just for the thrill of it. And as for certain species being endangered that's why they have controls as to when they can or can't be hunted, game limits, seasons, ect. And some of these game are dangerous and will kill people and I don't just mean hunters but people. The elephant can ll up to 500 hippo can kill up to 3000 people a year. I personally couldn't see myself hunting an elephant but I could see myself hunting hippo or lion. And hunters are responsible too, at least those that obey hunting laws and hunt the proper way. Its the poachers, those that don't obey hunting laws, that are irresponsible. Do you ever eat meat or use animal products? If you do than you're eating and/or using something that was killed.



I think you have missed the point about killing for pleasure and killing for food. You also have your figures wrong. I don't think elephants kill up to 500 hippos do you really?
_You won't need any sort of knife_ if you are going on one of those types of trips, you will be taken by vehicle to the killing site where the animal will be driven across in front of you so you can shoot it. There will even be someone there to shoot it for you so you can claim you killed the animal. Then you will get back in your vehicle after having your photo taken with the dead animal.

Buka my point was that with some things one has to give one's opinion and you cannot sit on the fence if you want to keep your conscience clean. To say nothing is sometimes not an option.


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## Transk53

Buka said:


> No, it's not. That's why there's a food chain and we sit atop it. Again, I would never hunt, but that's not the point.



Well, guess you have a different definition then. The life we sit atop is still life, wheter regarded sentient or not.


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## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> Well believe it or not but in the USA the white tailed deer was once an endangered species, now we have problem with there being too many of them.



There are two species sub-species of white-tailed deer that have been declared as "endangered" neither species has been removed from that listing, the overall species has never co close to being endangered, and has benefited by human conversion of woodland to agrarian and early seral habitat conditions.  To place any African species that requires savannah habitat is laughable.


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## tshadowchaser

I almost hate to ask but what dose hunting and species endangerment have to do with the op.  We are getting a big thread drift here can we get back to the OP please.
If you wish to discuss endangered species and hunting start another thread.


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## Tez3

tshadowchaser said:


> I almost hate to ask but what dose hunting and species endangerment have to do with the op.  We are getting a big thread drift here can we get back to the OP please.
> If you wish to discuss endangered species and hunting start another thread.




It's to do with it because the OP told us what he needed an edged tool for......when he was 'hunting' animals. Despite the awful issue of 'fun' hunting I would think it very unlikely that he would scything his way through any jungle despite what he thinks.


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## Transk53

tshadowchaser said:


> I almost hate to ask but what dose hunting and species endangerment have to do with the op.  We are getting a big thread drift here can we get back to the OP please.
> If you wish to discuss endangered species and hunting start another thread.



It is all the same, if you look in a wider context. No doubt a new thread would solve any issues. However, I feel that what Tez and I have posted, is very valid and crucial to the OP. Okay I am getting on my high horse here, but surely the misinformed should be helped and educated in the harsh realities of hunting and poaching. No disrespect Sir, but I believe you are wrong on that.


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## Tez3

I've no wish to discuss hunting outside the reason I wrote it in the first place and am unhappy enough about being on another thread than I am considering deleting all my posts on this thread.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> I've no wish to discuss hunting outside the reason I wrote it in the first place and am unhappy enough about being on another thread than I am considering deleting all my posts on this thread.



Calm down Tez, no reason to delete you're posts!


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## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Calm down Tez, no reason to delete you're posts!



I'm always calm, in fact I'm actually quite cold bloodied, rarely get upset, never get the red mist but do get ice in my veins.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> I'm always calm, in fact I'm actually quite cold bloodied, rarely get upset, never get the red mist but do get ice in my veins.



Ooh, the Ice Queen, shivering


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## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> All life is life, animal or human. But that will take the thread of topic.



Under that logic, that all life is life, that would include plant life.


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## PhotonGuy

Buka said:


> That is not the same. What you about talking about is illegal and not accepted anywhere on this planet. Hunting is not illegal and is widely accepted. I do not hunt, nor would I ever, but my personal feelings are not the point here.


Exactly. Hunting is not wrong, its just her take on it.



Buka said:


> No, it's not. That's why there's a food chain and we sit atop it. Again, I would never hunt, but that's not the point.


We're not always at the top, many people die every year from vicious animal attacks and its not uncommon for some animals to use them as food. Lions have been known to eat people entirely.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> I think you have missed the point about killing for pleasure and killing for food. You also have your figures wrong. I don't think elephants kill up to 500 hippos do you really?


What I meant to say is that elephants kill up to 500 people a year and hippos kill up to 3000 people a year. Excuse me if I made a typo.
As for killing for food vs pleasure, as long as you eat what you kill or put it to other good use than why should it matter if there was pleasure in doing it? How about all the livestock that is slaughtered for food, theres a possibility that the people who do the slaughtering might take some pleasure in it. Or how about fishing? Lots of people fish for pleasure and fun and they eat what they catch, but the fact remains that they got pleasure in the fishing they did. So are you against fishing too?

_


Tez3 said:



			You won't need any sort of knife
		
Click to expand...

_


Tez3 said:


> if you are going on one of those types of trips, you will be taken by vehicle to the killing site where the animal will be driven across in front of you so you can shoot it. There will even be someone there to shoot it for you so you can claim you killed the animal. Then you will get back in your vehicle after having your photo taken with the dead animal.


That is not how its done with the company that Im looking into.

And besides, the Bible justifies hunting.


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## Tgace

Well. I hunt Whitetail deer. And I eat venison. But I don't "have to" hunt to eat. I enjoy hunting and I eat the game I kill.

Whats wrong with that?

Unless you are a Vegan, some creature has to die if you eat it. The animal I hunt has a better chance of avoiding me than the farm raised cow that provides me with my beef.


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## RhythmGJ

Pleasure vs. Convenience. Similar, but different. Like Human life vs. Animal. 

But anyway, I hope the OP has a good, safe trip!


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I think you have missed the point about killing for pleasure and killing for food. You also have your figures wrong. I don't think elephants kill up to 500 hippos do you really?
> _You won't need any sort of knife_ if you are going on one of those types of trips, you will be taken by vehicle to the killing site where the animal will be driven across in front of you so you can shoot it. There will even be someone there to shoot it for you so you can claim you killed the animal. Then you will get back in your vehicle after having your photo taken with the dead animal.
> 
> Buka my point was that with some things one has to give one's opinion and you cannot sit on the fence if you want to keep your conscience clean. To say nothing is sometimes not an option.



actually the second shooter is a good idea. No point wounding an animal and letting it run off.


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## drop bear

Tgace said:


> Well. I hunt Whitetail deer. And I eat venison. But I don't "have to" hunt to eat. I enjoy hunting and I eat the game I kill.
> 
> Whats wrong with that?
> 
> Unless you are a Vegan, some creature has to die if you eat it. The animal I hunt has a better chance of avoiding me than the farm raised cow that provides me with my beef.



well people here hunt feral animals just to control their numbers. (And yes that can mean buffalo)

But it Is done for fun. Mostly pigs here.

Now pigs destroy any environment they occupy. So they are destroying our ecosystem.

The next irony is you cant farm and have pigs. You have to kill them. So for all those vegans out there buying vegies because killing animals is wrong?

Sorry guys.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Under that logic, that all life is life, that would include plant life.



The entire globe is teeming with life.


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## Tez3

This is now an argument that has nothing to do with the original thread which was the point of posting in the first place.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Exactly. Hunting is not wrong, its just her take on it.
> 
> 
> We're not always at the top, many people die every year from vicious animal attacks and its not uncommon for some animals to use them as food. *Lions have been known to eat people entirely.*



Yes exactly and why, because mankind has encroached on their territory to murder them just so some high class bimbo can have a lion hat or scarf. Without the hunting, they would be left at peace to scratch their things, or whatever. Hunting big game _*is wrong *_and completely unnecessary.


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## Tgace

Tez3 said:


> This is now an argument that has nothing to do with the original thread which was the point of posting in the first place.


This is a split-off thread titled "hunting".


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## Blindside

Transk53 said:


> Yes exactly and why, because mankind has encroached on their territory to murder them just so some high class bimbo can have a lion hat or scarf. Without the hunting, they would be left at peace to scratch their things, or whatever. Hunting big game _*is wrong *_and completely unnecessary.



What do you mean by "big game?"  

In the US the term usually refers to anything deer size and above.  I can't say I have any issue with deer, elk, or any of the US based big game hunts that I am familiar with, but perhaps it is just a question of familiarity, because I can't even stomach the idea of shooting an elephant.


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## Tez3

Tgace said:


> This is a split-off thread titled "hunting".




I know exactly what it is and has taken my comments which specifically were addressed to the issue of hunting certain animals for nothing more than being able to, it was not about hunting per se, it was not about eating animals, nor was it about abortion as someone added. It was just about hunting endangered animals just for fun. I would be very obliged actually if the mods could delete my comments from this thread as they weren't intended to address anything to do with hunting other than my disgust at shooting endangered species for enjoyment.


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## Transk53

Blindside said:


> What do you mean by "big game?"
> 
> In the US the term usually refers to anything deer size and above.  I can't say I have any issue with deer, elk, or any of the US based big game hunts that I am familiar with, but perhaps it is just a question of familiarity, *because I can't even stomach the idea of shooting an elephant.*



Good. I would hope that you would never contemplate that. By big game, I believe it is a term that the South Africans coined to include Lions, Tigers and such like. Among the favorites were the Rhino. A magnificent animal sadly teetering on the brink of annihilation. Well quite frankly it is a contradictory situation, and I imagine I fall into that as well. Probably hypocrisy at minimum, but I suppose that is were the human consumption issue comes in. In a basic way, an Elk or a Deer would be viewed as a food source, where as a Lion or a Tiger would not.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> I know exactly what it is and has taken my comments which specifically were addressed to the issue of hunting certain animals for nothing more than being able to, it was not about hunting per se, it was not about eating animals, nor was it about abortion as someone added. It was just about hunting endangered animals just for fun. I would be very obliged actually if the mods could delete my comments from this thread as they weren't intended to address anything to do with hunting other than my disgust at shooting endangered species for enjoyment.



Which I would hazard to say, no one quite gets why it is wrong to shoot any animal for fun.


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## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> Well. I hunt Whitetail deer. And I eat venison. But I don't "have to" hunt to eat. I enjoy hunting and I eat the game I kill.


As long as you eat or otherwise use what you hunt for practical purposes I don't hold that against you. Even if you don't have to hunt to eat, that meat you bought from the supermarket came from an animal that was brought to the slaughterhouse so its really no different than hunting and eating what you get.



Tgace said:


> Unless you are a Vegan, some creature has to die if you eat it. The animal I hunt has a better chance of avoiding me than the farm raised cow that provides me with my beef.



Even if you are a vegan, if you use any kind of animal products, clothes ect. an animal or animals had to die to provide what you're using.


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## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> well people here hunt feral animals just to control their numbers. (And yes that can mean buffalo)
> 
> But it Is done for fun. Mostly pigs here.
> 
> Now pigs destroy any environment they occupy. So they are destroying our ecosystem.
> 
> The next irony is you cant farm and have pigs. You have to kill them. So for all those vegans out there buying vegies because killing animals is wrong?
> 
> Sorry guys.



So how do you hunt in Australia? What legal steps do you need to take to be allowed to hunt?


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## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Yes exactly and why, because mankind has encroached on their territory to murder them just so some high class bimbo can have a lion hat or scarf. Without the hunting, they would be left at peace to scratch their things, or whatever.


No, lions just see man as another source of food. 



Transk53 said:


> Hunting big game _*is wrong *_and completely unnecessary.



Not according to the law it isn't. As for it being morally wrong, thats your take on it but its not a position everybody is going to share.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> No, lions just see man as another source of food.



Oh really, you are a expert on animals too. You must be a complete genius lol.


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## tshadowchaser

Play nice folks


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## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Oh really, you are a expert on animals too. You must be a complete genius lol.



It doesn't take a genius or expert to know this, all it takes is some research.


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## Tez3




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## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> No, lions just see man as another source of food.


 
Lions do sometimes prey on humans, but that is by far the exception rather than the rule.  The guided hunts that are used by foreign hunters are not used to control those animals, you can't use that as a justification for your guided hunt.  You are not protecting the general public with these hunts.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> It doesn't take a genius or expert to know this, all it takes is some research.



You just don't get it do you, and I'm certainly not investing time in that. I really could let fire here, but you Sir are just plain ignorant!


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I know exactly what it is and has taken my comments which specifically were addressed to the issue of hunting certain animals for nothing more than being able to, it was not about hunting per se, it was not about eating animals, nor was it about abortion as someone added. It was just about hunting endangered animals just for fun. I would be very obliged actually if the mods could delete my comments from this thread as they weren't intended to address anything to do with hunting other than my disgust at shooting endangered species for enjoyment.


which you can do taking in to account that your disgust is not really worth anything. Because in your own words.
My virtues or otherwise are determined by my beliefs not yours.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Which I would hazard to say, no one quite gets why it is wrong to shoot any animal for fun.



ok why is it wrong?


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> which you can do taking in to account that your disgust is not really worth anything. Because in your own words.
> My virtues or otherwise are determined by my beliefs not yours.



Hey, no need for that attitude drop bear, Tez is a informed voice, remember that!


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> ok why is it wrong?



Drop it!


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> So how do you hunt in Australia? What legal steps do you need to take to be allowed to hunt?



If you can find a property with their permission you could shoot his guns without a licence and end pretty much any feral animal you want.

I assume there are tours. I don't know. Most people who hunt here know a guy with a property.

Killing pigs with knives is fairly popular.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> You just don't get it do you, and I'm certainly not investing time in that. I really could let fire here, but you Sir are just plain ignorant!


So now we resort to name calling.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Drop it!



Don't attack me it is not an acceptable response. Define your moral outrage.


----------



## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> ok why is it wrong?



Whether its right or wrong is a matter of opinion. I wouldn't hunt just for sport and just for the pleasure of killing, I would always use what I kill, either eating it or selling it for food or for some other good use such as clothing. Some people do hunt just for sport and they don't do anything with what they kill except perhaps mount the head on their wall. I wouldn't do that but that's just me.

Now, to everybody who is against killing just because your able to. I've asked before and I will ask again, are you against fishing? With fishing you are catching and if you don't throw it back, killing, even if you eat what you kill. And before you talk about killing for pleasure vs killing for necessity I will point out that people who do fish often do so for pleasure. Fishing is a big sport and past time lots of people enjoy even if they do eat what they catch, they are doing it for pleasure.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> So now we resort to name calling.



Sir is not a name. You really want to mix it?


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Don't attack me it is not an acceptable response. Define your moral outrage.



I'm not attacking you. Just being forthright.


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> Whether its right or wrong is a matter of opinion. I wouldn't hunt just for sport and just for the pleasure of killing, I would always use what I kill, either eating it or selling it for food or for some other good use such as clothing. Some people do hunt just for sport and they don't do anything with what they kill except perhaps mount the head on their wall. I wouldn't do that but that's just me.
> 
> Now, to everybody who is against killing just because your able to. I've asked before and I will ask again, are you against fishing? With fishing you are catching and if you don't throw it back, killing, even if you eat what you kill. And before you talk about killing for pleasure vs killing for necessity I will point out that people who do fish often do so for pleasure. Fishing is a big sport and past time lots of people enjoy even if they do eat what they catch, they are doing it for pleasure.



fish are not cute.

Plenty of grey area. So you are on the receiving end of a lot of generalizations and moral high ground being thrown out. 

I don't think many people have actually thought about it. They are just feeling.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Sir is not a name. You really want to mix it?


Calling me ignorant was name calling.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> I'm not attacking you. Just being forthright.



Technically you are being evasive. Because i asked a question you wont answer.

And i wonder why?


----------



## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> fish are not cute.
> 
> Plenty of grey area. So you are on the receiving end of a lot of generalizations and moral high ground being thrown out.
> 
> I don't think many people have actually thought about it. They are just feeling.



Cute is a matter of opinion. Some people might think that fish are cute. And besides, being cute is not a deciding factor over whether its right to kill something.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Return to the original topic - hunting. Keep the posts polite and professional. 
Failing to do so will result in infractions being issued.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling me ignorant was name calling.



No it is not. Really?


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> Cute is a matter of opinion. Some people might think that fish are cute. And besides, being cute is not a deciding factor over whether its right to kill something.



It shouldn't be. You will often find it is though.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> No it is not. Really?



It is possibly the harshest way to describe that concept and so generally used as an insult.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Technically you are being evasive. Because i asked a question you wont answer.
> 
> And i wonder why?



I am not having you attack Tez, simples.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> I am not having you attack Tez, simples.



I am being forthright.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> I am being forthright.



No you are not. Leave Tez alone;


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> No you are not. Leave Tez alone;



so.........

trying to get back on topic here.

Why is it wrong to kill animals for fun?


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> so.........
> 
> trying to get back on topic here.
> 
> Why is it wrong to kill animals for fun?



You know what I could do, but really drop bear lol


----------



## Tgace

What is "wrong" with hunting?


----------



## clfsean

I don't see anything wrong with hunting, been known to do so myself. However that's with the caveat it's for food not sport. I don't particularly care for sport hunting here in the US but for big game... not so much either.

You kill it ... you clean it & eat it. Otherwise I don't see the use, only waste.

IMHO the only time non-food harvesting should occur is for herd control (like happens here for white tail & swamp deer) or disease control. Otherwise it should truly be IMHO from the field to the table.


----------



## drop bear

clfsean said:


> I don't see anything wrong with hunting, been known to do so myself. However that's with the caveat it's for food not sport. I don't particularly care for sport hunting here in the US but for big game... not so much either.
> 
> You kill it ... you clean it & eat it. Otherwise I don't see the use, only waste.
> 
> IMHO the only time non-food harvesting should occur is for herd control (like happens here for white tail & swamp deer) or disease control. Otherwise it should truly be IMHO from the field to the table.



But trophy hunters that do heard/disease control. I don't feel that's inherently wrong.


----------



## Transk53

My issue is that so many animals are needlessly killed for the sake of a trophy, or a head on a wall. Sorry peeps but I just a big problem with, perhaps I have been too vociferous with my opinion.


----------



## clfsean

drop bear said:


> But trophy hunters that do heard/disease control. I don't feel that's inherently wrong.



They do ... at times. It's not always about heard/disease for them. Yes it does do those things, but not always necessarily for those reasons.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> But trophy hunters that do heard/disease control. I don't feel that's inherently wrong.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the trophy hunter is going after the best trophy.  That means the biggest, strongest, healthiest animals.  That is the opposite of herd/disease control.

Hunting big African game like elephants, rhinos, hippos and giraffe is particularly heinous.  In many cases there are serious endangerment issues of the species, as well as animals with highly developed intelligence and emotions.  Anyone who cannot recognize that is willfully blind.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the trophy hunter is going after the best trophy.  That means the biggest, strongest, healthiest animals.  That is the opposite of herd/disease control.
> 
> Hunting big African game like elephants, rhinos, hippos and giraffe is particularly heinous.  In many cases there are serious endangerment issues of the species, as well as animals with highly developed intelligence and emotions.  Anyone who cannot recognize that is willfully blind.



Here buffalo are pests. Even the big ones.

In Africa they legaly hunt endaged species because there has been no other way to control the illegal hunting. And they were fighting wars with poachers over it. People were dying to save these animals.

So the farms have saved animals lives and peoples lives.


----------



## Flying Crane

PhotonGuy said:


> I always eat what I kill so its not just for the thrill of it. And as for certain species being endangered that's why they have controls as to when they can or can't be hunted, game limits, seasons, ect. And some of these game are dangerous and will kill people and I don't just mean hunters but people. The elephant can kill up to 500 hippo can kill up to 3000 people a year. I personally couldn't see myself hunting an elephant but I could see myself hunting hippo or lion. And hunters are responsible too, at least those that obey hunting laws and hunt the proper way. Its the poachers, those that don't obey hunting laws, that are irresponsible. Do you ever eat meat or use animal products? If you do than you're eating and/or using something that was killed.


Um...so elephants and hippos are known to kill people...are you really trying to turn this into a moral crusade?  Do you believe that people need to kill elephants and hippos in order to get even with them for their killing of people?


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> Here buffalo are pests. Even the big ones.
> 
> In Africa they legaly hunt endaged species because there has been no other way to control the illegal hunting. And they were fighting wars with poachers over it. People were dying to save these animals.
> 
> So the farms have saved animals lives and peoples lives.


Are you trying to tell me that there are elephant "farms" where  elephants are raised in order to be hunted?  Also for rhino, hippo and giraffe?  Would you have me believe that?  And if that is true, it is even more heinous.


----------



## drop bear

clfsean said:


> They do ... at times. It's not always about heard/disease for them. Yes it does do those things, but not always necessarily for those reasons.



You are going to have hunting that moves from one end of the moral spectrum to the other.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Are you trying to tell me that there are elephant "farms" where  elephants are raised in order to be hunted?  Also for rhino, hippo and giraffe?  Would you have me believe that?  And if that is true, it is even more heinous.



yes. And why is that more heinous?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Flying Crane said:


> Are you trying to tell me that there are elephant "farms" where  elephants are raised in order to be hunted?  Also for rhino, hippo and giraffe?  Would you have me believe that?  And if that is true, it is even more heinous.





drop bear said:


> yes. And why is that more heinous?



Well, for one thing, farm raised animals do not share the fear of humans that helps keep their wild brethren alive. 
It's quite the sporting challenge, shooting an animal, inside a fence, that has been taught not to fear humans.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> But trophy hunters that do heard/disease control. I don't feel that's inherently wrong.



Most trophy hunts don't control population, most trophy hunts hunt the large males of the species, if you are actually trying to control the population of a species then you hunt females.  

Trophy hunts aren't usually about disease control, I'd appreciate any evidence to contrary.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Most trophy hunts don't control population, most trophy hunts hunt the large males of the species, if you are actually trying to control the population of a species then you hunt females.
> 
> Trophy hunts aren't usually about disease control, I'd appreciate any evidence to contrary.



Feral Pigs


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Feral Pigs


Yup, got it.  Shoot the females to control the population.  

If you are trying to say that trophy hunting is about disease control, I don't think anything in that page indicates that.  A trophy hunter who took out the largest boar in the herd doesn't do squat to control the disease prevalence or lack of it in the remaining herd.  Disease control in feral pigs is more like "kill them all" rather than the selective nature of trophy hunting.


----------



## drop bear

O





Blindside said:


> Yup, got it.  Shoot the females to control the population.
> 
> If you are trying to say that trophy hunting is about disease control, I don't think anything in that page indicates that.  A trophy hunter who took out the largest boar in the herd doesn't do squat to control the disease prevalence or lack of it in the remaining herd.  Disease control in feral pigs is more like "kill them all" rather than the selective nature of trophy hunting.


So you don't think this includes trophy hunters?

"Ground-based feral pig hunting is considered by many to be good sport. and can be a useful control measure provided the shooting is carried out by experienced hunters."

Now i do agree that mowing them down from a helicopter is more effective. But are you suggesting that is more moral?


----------



## Transk53

@drop bear. Seems quite obvious that have reached the limit on understanding here. What has a feral pig got to do with "big game hunting" Absolutely nothing at all. To the helicopter thing. That is a ridiculous  statement.


----------



## Tgace

Transk53 said:


> @drop bear. Seems quite obvious that have reached the limit on understanding here. What has a feral pig got to do with "big game hunting" Absolutely nothing at all. To the helicopter thing. That is a ridiculous  statement.


Heli-Hunter Helicopter Hog Hunting


----------



## Transk53

Tgace said:


> Heli-Hunter Helicopter Hog Hunting



Yeah yeah, I know that is something that can be, and is done. I was struggling with the notion of what has a feral pig got to do with big game hunting. Which I believe is not done by Helo, or for that type of commercial venture.


----------



## Tgace

Well. Hogs can definitely be considered "Big Game".


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> yes. And why is that more heinous?


Do you honestly need that explained to you?


----------



## elder999

Tgace said:


> Well. Hogs can definitely be considered "Big Game".


And scary-I took my last one with a crossbow. Never again-next time a muzzleloader or some other rifle....

It's no secret that I hunt-I hunt what the government tells me I can hunt, and when and where, mostly, and I only hunt for meat-I'm not one of those guys who decorates the home with animal heads-I don't even take photographs. That's my way, and my family's way, and always has been. That being said, I've known people who go on African safari every couple of years. I can certainly see the attraction in hunting something that has a pretty good chance of killing you first-and I try not to judge people, or the activity-I just wouldn't engage in it myself, or encourage anyone to do so.

Years ago, I tried to climb Mount Everest. I was a pretty fair mountaineer: I'd summited (there's one of those verbified nouns for you, Tez) Denali, Rainier, and, in preparation for Everest, Noshakh and Cho Oyu. I was stunned to see people who had never really climbed before being guided up Everest, and it's part of the reason why I discourage everyone from trying to do so-I put so-called "canned hunts" mostly in the same bin-such people are posers.

I also once participated in the killing of a bear- the one and only time I've ever hunted something simply because I wanted to kill one. I've posted about it here -it was not a good experience.

African game is viewed by the nations that host safaris as a resource-and one to be exploited. Exploited as long as people are willing to pay for the privilege of hunting them. It seems to me that those who have a beef with this sort of activity might do better aiming their rancor at the nations and organizations that promote and host such activities, and not towards those who choose-*having been given * that choice- to participate in it.


----------



## Transk53

Tgace said:


> Well. Hogs can definitely be considered "Big Game".



Woah, jeez louise. Some fat porkers there.


----------



## Blindside

Tgace said:


> Well. Hogs can definitely be considered "Big Game".


 
Yes, or they can be labeled as nuisance species by the responsible wildlife management agency.


----------



## elder999

Transk53 said:


> Woah, jeez louise. Some fat porkers there.




Nah-those are average size-just within "good meat" range (as they get bigger and more mature, they become less and less palatable in the wild,)





As near as I can tell, given a chance, they pretty much don't stop growing....


----------



## Transk53

elder999 said:


> Nah-those are average size-just within "good meat" range (as they get bigger and more mature, they become less and less palatable in the wild,)
> 
> View attachment 19173
> 
> As near as I can tell, given a chance, they pretty much don't stop growing....



What is it with you Americans and big porkers


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> O
> So you don't think this includes trophy hunters?
> 
> "Ground-based feral pig hunting is considered by many to be good sport. and can be a useful control measure provided the shooting is carried out by experienced hunters."
> 
> Now i do agree that mowing them down from a helicopter is more effective. But are you suggesting that is more moral?


 
Trophy hunting only makes a small percentage of "ground based feral pig hunting."  Again, trophy hunters are usually after big males, which is not a good method of population control.  Hunters who are interested in meat will target any pig besides the big boars because they they generally taste better. 

Helicopter hunting is usually only used in terms of species who are declared as "nuisance species" and is not considered sport hunting by the management agencies.  The purpose of that type of hunting is to truly reduce the numbers of the populations.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Trophy hunting only makes a small percentage of "ground based feral pig hunting."  Again, trophy hunters are usually after big males, which is not a good method of population control.  Hunters who are interested in meat will target any pig besides the big boars because they they generally taste better.
> 
> Helicopter hunting is usually only used in terms of species who are declared as "nuisance species" and is not considered sport hunting by the management agencies.  The purpose of that type of hunting is to truly reduce the numbers of the populations.



So you are suggesting trophy hunters are wrong because they are not killing enough animals?


----------



## Flying Crane

Blindside said:


> Most trophy hunts don't control population, most trophy hunts hunt the large males of the species, if you are actually trying to control the population of a species then you hunt females.
> 
> Trophy hunts aren't usually about disease control, I'd appreciate any evidence to contrary.


Trophy hunting can weaken the gene pool of the animal population.  The strongest, healthiest males are taken out of the gene pool, leaving weaker, possibly less healthy males to breed and establish the next generations.  And thus, the gene pool is weakened.  

Anyone who believes trophy hunting has anything to do with responsible population control is lying to themselves.  Or is simply a fool.


----------



## Transk53

Flying Crane said:


> Trophy hunting can weaken the gene pool of the animal population.  The strongest, healthiest males are taken out of the gene pool, leaving weaker, possibly less healthy males to breed and establish the next generations.  And thus, the gene pool is weakened.
> 
> Anyone who believes trophy hunting has anything to do with responsible population control is lying to themselves.  Or is simply a fool.



A sublime answer. I completely agree with this


----------



## Flying Crane

elder999 said:


> African game is viewed by the nations that host safaris as a resource-and one to be exploited. Exploited as long as people are willing to pay for the privilege of hunting them. It seems to me that those who have a beef with this sort of activity might do better aiming their rancor at the nations and organizations that promote and host such activities, and not towards those who choose-*having been given * that choice- to participate in it.


I think they all deserve our rancor.  The nations and organizations who host the hunts, and the people willing to do them with the excuse that "it's allowed".


----------



## Transk53

Flying Crane said:


> I think they all deserve our rancor.  The nations and organizations who host the hunts, and the people willing to do them with the excuse that "it's allowed".



Concur!!


----------



## Flying Crane

elder999 said:


> Nah-those are average size-just within "good meat" range (as they get bigger and more mature, they become less and less palatable in the wild,)
> 
> View attachment 19173
> 
> As near as I can tell, given a chance, they pretty much don't stop growing....


Are we certain that kid isn't just sitting about 20 feet behind the boar in order to, you know, make it look bigger?


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> So you are suggesting trophy hunters are wrong because they are not killing enough animals?


 
I am suggesting that the common claim that they are helpful in population control is false.  If you want to control the population you need to lower the number of breeding females by significant margins and this is something that trophy hunters do not do.  So yes, they need to kill more to be effective to reach the goal of population control.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> I am suggesting that the common claim that they are helpful in population control is false.  If you want to control the population you need to lower the number of breeding females by significant margins and this is something that trophy hunters do not do.  So yes, they need to kill more to be effective to reach the goal of population control.



So if we get the trophy hunters just to kill a few extras you would be happier. Then just take the trophies from. The ones they want.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> So if we get the trophy hunters just to kill a few extras you would be happier. Then just take the trophies from. The ones they want.


 
Yes, then they aren't just trophy hunting boars.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> So if we get the trophy hunters just to kill a few extras you would be happier. Then just take the trophies from. The ones they want.



You changed you're mind all of a sudden?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> You changed you're mind all of a sudden?



yeah that is the problem with trophy hunters is they don't kill enough animals.

Doesn't sound a bit counter intuitive to you?


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> yeah that is the problem with trophy hunters is they don't kill enough animals.
> 
> Doesn't sound a bit counter intuitive to you?



I am not sure you understand the issue.  I don't have any problem with trophy hunters in feral pig populations, every method of control should be used, the problem I had was with the claim that trophy hunters are actually of much use in accomplishing the task.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> I am not sure you understand the issue.  I don't have any problem with trophy hunters in feral pig populations, every method of control should be used, the problem I had was with the claim that trophy hunters are actually of much use in accomplishing the task.



Then you would have to show that trophy hunters really do only target large males.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Then you would have to show that trophy hunters really do only target large males.



Now you're just being silly. This is about like saying "you would have to prove that the Patriots really do want to win the Superbowl". 

Nobody goes trophy hunting with the intent of finding a small, scrawny, sickly, weak, mangy specimen.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Then you would have to show that trophy hunters really do only target large males.


To reiterate "TROPHY hunting."

These guys aren't the targets of trophy hunters.  If a trophy hunter shot these guys just because they were around he is liable to to spook off that big boar that he is hoping for.  Pigs are smart animals and go away from the sound of gunfire.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> Now you're just being silly. This is about like saying "you would have to prove that the Patriots really do want to win the Superbowl".
> 
> Nobody goes trophy hunting with the intent of finding a small, scrawny, sickly, weak, mangy specimen.



So you say. You are working on this theory that trophy hunters are not culling or also shooting for meat.

You are working on this theory that females don't have trophies worth keeping.

And working on the theory that killing big males does not reduce the population.

It is not a big ask for some evidence is it?


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> So you say. You are working on this theory that trophy hunters are not culling or also shooting for meat.
> 
> You are working on this theory that females don't have trophies worth keeping.
> 
> And working on the theory that killing big males does not reduce the population.
> 
> It is not a big ask for some evidence is it?



No. I'm not. I'm working from exactly the position I stated. Trophy hunters are not looking for sickly, weak, mangy, small specimens.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## elder999

Flying Crane said:


> Are we certain that kid isn't just sitting about 20 feet behind the boar in order to, you know, make it look bigger?


Yes, I'm absolutely certain that Jamison Stone shot that 1054 lb. hog in Alabama back in 2007. That's all I'm certain of, though: the exact circumstances of the hunt, and just how "feral" the hog actually was are subjects of some doubt.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> No. I'm not. I'm working from exactly the position I stated. Trophy hunters are not looking for sickly, weak, mangy, small specimens.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



Ok but does that relate to whether they help control a feral animal?


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Ok but does that relate to whether they help control a feral animal?



Would depend on the animal, or at least what is considered to be an animal, and not a urban pest or suchlike.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Would depend on the animal, or at least what is considered to be an animal, and not a urban pest or suchlike.



So if you could do a culling hunt safari?

Hunt Australia Safaris


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> No. I'm not. I'm working from exactly the position I stated. Trophy hunters are not looking for sickly, weak, mangy, small specimens.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



apparently they are. Here is a combination full and trophy hunt.

Combination Cull-And-Trophy Hunt by www.huntingreport.com


----------



## Transk53

@drop bear Now you are just being pedantic!


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Now you are just being pedantic!



In that i have evidence to support my claim?

Another trophy hunt and cull managing ferals in Australia.

Hunt Down Under in Australia


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Ok but does that relate to whether they help control a feral animal?



I suppose in the sense that killing off the finest specimens results in a weaker, sickly, less hardy breed, I suppose that it does. Is it your opinion that we should be trying to ensure that only the poorest genes get passed on?


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> I suppose in the sense that killing off the finest specimens results in a weaker, sickly, less hardy breed, I suppose that it does. Is it your opinion that we should be trying to ensure that only the poorest genes get passed on?



Makes no real difference Trophy hunters will do culls at the same time. So the point becomes kind of moot.

In that they are looking for sickly week ect.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> apparently they are. Here is a combination full and trophy hunt.
> 
> Combination Cull-And-Trophy Hunt by www.huntingreport.com[/QUOTE]


 
So you will notice that it had to define both of the hunt types that will occur. My point has always been that trophy hunting by itself is not a useful method of population control, that is exactly why they have cull hunts. If a trophy hunter also does a cull hunt then they aren't just trophy hunting.


----------



## Blindside

Dirty Dog said:


> I suppose in the sense that killing off the finest specimens results in a weaker, sickly, less hardy breed, I suppose that it does. Is it your opinion that we should be trying to ensure that only the poorest genes get passed on?


 
You have to be very specific about the impacts of trophy hunting on populations, specific to species and area, you can't generalize about this.  This isn't my area of expertise, but most of the work that has shone the serious impacts of trophy hunting are genetically isolated populations.  There are still world record of elk and deer in the US being brought in in recent years despite years of trophy hunting.


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> So you say. You are working on this theory that trophy hunters are not culling or also shooting for meat.
> 
> You are working on this theory that females don't have trophies worth keeping.
> 
> And working on the theory that killing big males does not reduce the population.
> 
> It is not a big ask for some evidence is it?





Blindside said:


> You have to be very specific about the impacts of trophy hunting on populations, specific to species and area, you can't generalize about this.  This isn't my area of expertise, but most of the work that has shone the serious impacts of trophy hunting are genetically isolated populations.  There are still world record of elk and deer in the US being brought in in recent years despite years of trophy hunting.


good points.  And to my earlier points, I cannot imagine any positive or neutral impact that trophy hunting might have on Big African game like elephants and rhinos, whose populations are threatened.  I can't imagine any justification for a cull hunt on those animals.  Any deliberate killing of those animals is heinous.


----------



## Blindside

Flying Crane said:


> good points.  And to my earlier points, I cannot imagine any positive or neutral impact that trophy hunting might have on Big African game like elephants and rhinos, whose populations are threatened.  I can't imagine any justification for a cull hunt on those animals.  Any deliberate killing of those animals is heinous.


 
In some areas elephants are overpopulating their habitats, and the last recommendation I heard was actually to remove entire herds at once rather than selectively remove individuals.  If you trophy hunt and remove the bull elephant you may wind up with (literally) a bunch of juvenile delinquint junior males who sort of go nuts without the discipline instilled by the bull.  Not a fun subject. 

Edit: And just to point out that this would be an instance where trophy hunting would not be recommended even if it had no negative impact on the genetic health of the elephant herd.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> So you will notice that it had to define both of the hunt types that will occur. My point has always been that trophy hunting by itself is not a useful method of population control, that is exactly why they have cull hunts. If a trophy hunter also does a cull hunt then they aren't just trophy hunting.



I am pretty sure you were suggesting that combining both did not exist at all. Because the big ones were scared away.

That trophy hunts don't control the population. Trophy culls absolutely do.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> good points.  And to my earlier points, I cannot imagine any positive or neutral impact that trophy hunting might have on Big African game like elephants and rhinos, whose populations are threatened.  I can't imagine any justification for a cull hunt on those animals.  Any deliberate killing of those animals is heinous.



Africa is a weird one because they have been combating poaching for years. And the methods they have been using are not really working.

They fight gun battles out there and they struggle to get the money and the man power to do that.

The legal hunting farms put money into conservation of the species and the prevention of poaching. So it may be heinous but they are saving the species in a way they have not been able to do otherwise.

It is an awkward one that.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure you were suggesting that combining both did not exist at all. Because the big ones were scared away.
> 
> That trophy hunts don't control the population. Trophy culls absolutely do.


Please explain what a trophy cull is.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Please explain what a trophy cull is.



Hunt Down Under in Australia

You go out shoot a heap of animals keep the body parts of the ones you like.

The trophy hunters pay for the cull so they get a trophy and get to shoot a few extra animals. Otherwise wildlife services (the tax payer) foots the bill.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure you were suggesting that combining both did not exist at all. Because the big ones were scared away.
> 
> That trophy hunts don't control the population. Trophy culls absolutely do.



Do you hunt?
If you just dropped $12,000 on a hunt for a trophy buff, then you will spend your time pursuing it.  Anytime spent doing something else, like stalking a cull animal or dressing it out is time not spent toward the trophy, and you are on a limited time frame with these hunts. Trophy hunters are picky at least the experienced ones are, I have watched guys pass up 8 point bucks in hopes of getting a 10.  I suspect most of those culls are taken after the trophy is taken.   But it sounds like it is a good program, I hope it works.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Do you hunt?
> If you just dropped $12,000 on a hunt for a trophy buff, then you will spend your time pursuing it.  Anytime spent doing something else, like stalking a cull animal or dressing it out is time not spent toward the trophy, and you are on a limited time frame with these hunts. Trophy hunters are picky at least the experienced ones are, I have watched guys pass up 8 point bucks in hopes of getting a 10.  I suspect most of those culls are taken after the trophy is taken.   But it sounds like it is a good program, I hope it works.



honestly mostly here we cull. Pigs are a pain to everybody and are fun to kill. Trophies are secondary. Even meat is secondary.


----------



## elder999

Meanwhile, in other news :



> A hunter patiently stalking animals earlier this month on a ranch in De Leon, Texas, when suddenly they saw a massive creature that made him do a “double take.” It was a nearly 800-pound hog, which was almost double the size of the biggest hog Blaine Garcia had ever captured.
> 
> “I did a double take. I couldn’t believe his size.


----------



## PhotonGuy

clfsean said:


> I don't see anything wrong with hunting, been known to do so myself. However that's with the caveat it's for food not sport. I don't particularly care for sport hunting here in the US but for big game... not so much either.
> 
> You kill it ... you clean it & eat it. Otherwise I don't see the use, only waste.
> 
> IMHO the only time non-food harvesting should occur is for herd control (like happens here for white tail & swamp deer) or disease control. Otherwise it should truly be IMHO from the field to the table.



I agree. You clean it and either eat it or sell it to be eaten. You could also use the skin for a variety if purposes. I don't believe in killing just for the sake of killing as some people will do. But the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with killing if you use what you kill.

Hunting is Biblically justified.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree. You clean it and either eat it or sell it to be eaten. You could also use the skin for a variety if purposes. I don't believe in killing just for the sake of killing as some people will do. But the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with killing if you use what you kill.
> 
> Hunting is Biblically justified.




Hunting for food yes but you were talking about killing animals that you possibly eat such as elephants and lions. You seem to have taken a U turn here.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Hunting for food yes but you were talking about killing animals that you possibly eat such as elephants and lions. You seem to have taken a U turn here.



People eat elephants and lions, not that I would ever hunt an elephant.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Hunting is Biblically justified.



Frankly, who gives a ****? The Christian bible endorses a lot of reprehensible things. 
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Exodus 21:7-11
Zechariah 14:1-2
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
That short and far from complete list is of biblical quotes endorsing rape, murder, slavery and burning to death anyone who doesn't share your beliefs.
Pretty heinous, really.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> As of right now I can't afford to hunt any of the big five which would be elephant,
> rinoceros, cape buffalo, lion, and leopard. Hunting any of them is very expensive and besides *I would want more experience hunting in* *Africa before I was to hunt any of them* as they can be very dangerous.



So, you wouldn't hunt what exactly?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> So, you wouldn't hunt what exactly?


I wouldn't ever hunt elephant. As of right now I would not hunt lion or leopard as I would want more experience.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I wouldn't ever hunt elephant. As of right now I would not hunt lion or leopard as I would want more experience.




And of course you are going to eat all the lion and leopard aren't you, every little bit of them then you are going to make clothes out of the skin.......
You don't need any experience to shoot these animals, they are driven in front of the guns like lambs to the slaughter, they wouldn't have a chance to get to you of course. Oh and you did include elephant when you said you wanted to shoot game.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> And of course you are going to eat all the lion and leopard aren't you, every little bit of them then you are going to make clothes out of the skin.......


Either that or sell them for such uses.



Tez3 said:


> You don't need any experience to shoot these animals, they are driven in front of the guns like lambs to the slaughter, they wouldn't have a chance to get to you of course. Oh and you did include elephant when you said you wanted to shoot game.



Ever been on an African hunting safari? I didn't think so.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Either that or sell them for such uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Ever been on an African hunting safari? I didn't think so.




Look, I'm going to be blunt because at the moment I happen to think you are the biggest wazzack going, I've just spent the best part of the week at my husbands bedside after he had a heart attack and I really can't be bothered with your ignorant childish fantasies. Fine go off and kill all these wonderful animals if it makes you think it gives you balls but stop giving us this BS about eating them, culling them for their own good or anything else. You want to kill living breathing animals because you will enjoy watching the life leave their bodies, nothing else. The fact that you think you need an excuse is proof enough that you are  a rather mean spirited little person.

Hunters who hunt for food do so with respect for the animals that provide their food. They also take only what they need You respect nothing.


Do I look like the sort of disgusting human being that would enjoy killing animals on a safari?

The elephant whisperer Part 2- the elephants come to tea Daily Mail Online


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Look, I'm going to be blunt because at the moment I happen to think you are the biggest wazzack going, I've just spent the best part of the week at my husbands bedside after he had a heart attack and I really can't be bothered with your ignorant childish fantasies. Fine go off and kill all these wonderful animals if it makes you think it gives you balls but stop giving us this BS about eating them, culling them for their own good or anything else. You want to kill living breathing animals because you will enjoy watching the life leave their bodies, nothing else. The fact that you think you need an excuse is proof enough that you are  a rather mean spirited little person.
> 
> Hunters who hunt for food do so with respect for the animals that provide their food. They also take only what they need You respect nothing.
> 
> 
> Do I look like the sort of disgusting human being that would enjoy killing animals on a safari?
> 
> The elephant whisperer Part 2- the elephants come to tea Daily Mail Online



Im really sorry about what you're dealing with right now but if my posts are causing you to get all worked up


Tez3 said:


> Look, I'm going to be blunt because at the moment I happen to think you are the biggest wazzack going, I've just spent the best part of the week at my husbands bedside after he had a heart attack and I really can't be bothered with your ignorant childish fantasies. Fine go off and kill all these wonderful animals if it makes you think it gives you balls but stop giving us this BS about eating them, culling them for their own good or anything else. You want to kill living breathing animals because you will enjoy watching the life leave their bodies, nothing else. The fact that you think you need an excuse is proof enough that you are  a rather mean spirited little person.
> 
> Hunters who hunt for food do so with respect for the animals that provide their food. They also take only what they need You respect nothing.
> 
> 
> Do I look like the sort of disgusting human being that would enjoy killing animals on a safari?
> 
> The elephant whisperer Part 2- the elephants come to tea Daily Mail Online



You're right about one thing, I don't need an excuse to hunt. Now, Im sorry about all that you're going through but if my posts bother you that much, you don't have to read them. If you get all riled up it was you who chose to read my posts in the first place. You think Im a wazzack? That's your prerogative. But Im not going to let that get to me because what you think or say has no effect on my life whatsoever.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Tez3

No you aren't getting me 'worked up', you make me rather sad because you continuously post on here looking for something you will never find because  what you are looking for has to found inside you . You have a sublime disregard for anyone on here, you post up the most ridiculous statements and watch while people, patiently try to unravel them, explain and they are understanding beyond anything that is deserved. You disrespect just about everyone on here.
 Life is very, very precious, even a lions, a giraffes or a rhinos, yet you speak of extinguishing that life with only thought for your pleasure and that's the obscenity of it, *you want to kill only for the pleasure of seeing an animal die.* Not for food, not to feed your family, you want a massacre a range of animals so you can boast of it. And when that thrill has palled, what will you look to for your thrills then.......


----------



## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Look, I'm going to be blunt because at the moment I happen to think you are the biggest wazzack going, I've just spent the best part of the week at my husbands bedside after he had a heart attack and I really can't be bothered with your ignorant childish fantasies.


Prayers for you and your hubby's speedy recovery, Irene.

_"Wazzack??"_ Gotta love you Brits...


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Thoughts and prayers sent your way Irene.


----------



## Tez3

Thank you, I do appreciate your thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> People eat elephants and lions, not that I would ever hunt an elephant.



Good. No doubt an Elephant would rip you a new one!


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> You're right about one thing, I don't need an excuse to hunt. Now, Im sorry about all that you're going through but if my posts bother you that much, you don't have to read them. If you get all riled up it was you who chose to read my posts in the first place. You think Im a wazzack? That's your prerogative. But Im not going to let that get to me because what you think or say has no effect on my life whatsoever.
> 
> Have a nice day.



You know what, you just do not understand humanity at all. Do you not realise that what you post is just, well, rather stupid. You posts are uniformed and non source posts. I knew him, or I heard him or whatever. Try and understand that the majority of us have human issues to deal with, and I mean less you, and sometimes humans react with venom due to the fact that some simply do not listen. My two cents due to the fact that I feel a little punchy!


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, I do appreciate your thoughts and prayers.



Mine with you too etc.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> You know what, you just do not understand humanity at all. Do you not realise that what you post is just, well, rather stupid. You posts are uniformed and non source posts. I knew him, or I heard him or whatever. Try and understand that the majority of us have human issues to deal with, and I mean less you, and sometimes humans react with venom due to the fact that some simply do not listen. My two cents due to the fact that I feel a little punchy!



Feeling offended is what as known as a narcissistic injury.


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> honestly mostly here we cull. Pigs are a pain to everybody and are fun to kill. Trophies are secondary. Even meat is secondary.



Look I ain't no hippy but you're kind of going into PhotonGuy's crass territory, who I doubt knows the first thing about hunting.  Don't get me wrong, I of course enjoy the experience of a hunt or I would not do it.  I used to hunt deer and pig and much smaller game but it was always for the meat for the large animals (on my uncle's farm the main purpose was actually eradication but the meat was used and as a by-product trophies, ie antlers, were taken too) and the pelts for the small ones, with the rabbits and possum pelts being sold.

But saying pigs are "fun to kill" sounds kind of sad - both as to yourself and your view on life (in general) and for the pigs. 

Maybe you just meant the sheer enjoyment of being out in nature hunting and doing what we used to do before we became supermarket-grazers, fine. I get that feeling too.

But if you are simply finding it "fun" killing stuff, be it shooting stray pigs or fish in a barrel, then maybe that ain't so cool...


----------



## Zero

Photon Guy is a dick. 

The idea of shooting elephants, lions, etc even if it is on a managed game reserve were supposedly the numbers are there to justify this (which globally I doubt) (or separately, anything on the endangered list) in this day and age is reprehensible.  You can get better excitement elsewhere and hunt large game that can be used either by yourself or others for the meat etc.

As said, take a photo. Respect wildlife, hunt what you need only. Don't go to Africa and shoot their alpha predators.


----------



## Tez3

Zero said:


> Photon Guy is a dick.



I wouldn't have said he was that useful!


----------



## Zero

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't have said he was that useful!



Depends on the perspective, I tried lamely hitting on a couple of lesbians once. They didn't think it was useful at all!


----------



## drop bear

Zero said:


> Look I ain't no hippy but you're kind of going into PhotonGuy's crass territory, who I doubt knows the first thing about hunting.  Don't get me wrong, I of course enjoy the experience of a hunt or I would not do it.  I used to hunt deer and pig and much smaller game but it was always for the meat for the large animals (on my uncle's farm the main purpose was actually eradication but the meat was used and as a by-product trophies, ie antlers, were taken too) and the pelts for the small ones, with the rabbits and possum pelts being sold.
> 
> But saying pigs are "fun to kill" sounds kind of sad - both as to yourself and your view on life (in general) and for the pigs.
> 
> Maybe you just meant the sheer enjoyment of being out in nature hunting and doing what we used to do before we became supermarket-grazers, fine. I get that feeling too.
> 
> But if you are simply finding it "fun" killing stuff, be it shooting stray pigs or fish in a barrel, then maybe that ain't so cool...



you do understand they are feral here right?


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> you do understand they are feral here right?



Yup, just like possums, rabbits, deer and pig were not endemic where I grew up and we hunted the lot.

But I fail to understand just why something is feral would make killing that thing "fun" for you while something not feral, would not be fun.  How does that work, please explain?


----------



## drop bear

Zero said:


> Yup, just like possums, rabbits, deer and pig were not endemic where I grew up and we hunted the lot.
> 
> But I fail to understand just why something is feral would make killing that thing "fun" for you while something not feral, would not be fun.  How does that work, please explain?



feral pigs do nothing other than destroy our delicate ecosystem. Killing them is doing the environment a favor. It is the feral animals that are endangering the native animals.

So killing an animal that is basically not supposed to be there is more fun than killing an animal that is supposed to. That is why people kill ferals and not natives.


----------



## drop bear

Feral pigs - invasive animals in Australia


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Feral pigs - invasive animals in Australia



Would that not be the case that the animals escaped farms? Anyway why do people get fixated on Africa. Animals are murdered all over the globe. Whole species wiped out by real big men and their real big guns. Good answer. Stick them in a cage with a hungry and pissed off Tiger. Won't be justice served, but close enough. About time humankind woke up and realised we do not own this planet. We have right to take away what is not ours. Probably very naive sounding, but seeing aftermath of the glorious accomplishment of turning a handbag, or a fancy pair of shoes. Hope their footsteps are red.


----------



## elder999

Transk53 said:


> Would that not be the case that the animals escaped farms? Anyway why do people get fixated on Africa. Animals are murdered all over the globe. Whole species wiped out by real big men and their real big guns. Good answer. Stick them in a cage with a hungry and pissed off Tiger. Won't be justice served, but close enough. About time humankind woke up and realised we do not own this planet. We have right to take away what is not ours. Probably very naive sounding, but seeing aftermath of the glorious accomplishment of turning a handbag, or a fancy pair of shoes. Hope their footsteps are red.


But elk, deer, bison, pig, sheep, turkey, rabbits, and squirrels are all delicious.

Actually, mountain lion backstraps are pretty tasty......

Feral pigs are fun to hunt-though a  little scary, that's what makes them fun-they're smart, stronger than you and pretty well-armed. Use a primitive weapon (as I have) at the risk of pooping your pants!

Animals cannot, by definition, be "murdered.":

From the very excellent _Merriam Webster Collegiate English Language Technical Manualp_ (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.)


> *Full Definition of MURDER*
> 1
> *:*  the crime of unlawfully killing a *person* especially with malice aforethought


----------



## Blindside

Transk53 said:


> Would that not be the case that the animals escaped farms? Anyway why do people get fixated on Africa. Animals are murdered all over the globe. Whole species wiped out by real big men and their real big guns. Good answer. Stick them in a cage with a hungry and pissed off Tiger. Won't be justice served, but close enough. About time humankind woke up and realised we do not own this planet. We have right to take away what is not ours. Probably very naive sounding, but seeing aftermath of the glorious accomplishment of turning a handbag, or a fancy pair of shoes. Hope their footsteps are red.



Do you eat meat?


----------



## Tez3

elder999 said:


> But elk, deer, bison, pig, sheep, turkey, rabbits, and squirrels are all delicious.
> 
> Actually, mountain lion backstraps are pretty tasty......
> 
> Feral pigs are fun to hunt-though a  little scary, that's what makes them fun-they're smart, stronger than you and pretty well-armed. Use a primitive weapon (as I have) at the risk of pooping your pants!
> 
> Animals cannot, by definition, be "murdered.":
> 
> From the very excellent _Merriam Webster Collegiate English Language Technical Manualp_ (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.)




There's no doubt the hunt, the tracking and pitting of wits is fun but should the actual killing be 'fun' or should it be something that is done quickly and cleanly without a sense of enjoyment at the animals death? Should you feel pleasure at the sight of an animal's death throes?
Without being over emotional or maudlin, no one should find pleasure in the death of any living being who hasn't actually done you harm. It's necessary to kill for food but it isn't necessary to glory in the death of the animal you kill. Hunting for trophies is just killing because you can, it's actually quite a childish thing to do, showing off to no actual point.


----------



## drop bear

elder999 said:


> But elk, deer, bison, pig, sheep, turkey, rabbits, and squirrels are all delicious.
> 
> Actually, mountain lion backstraps are pretty tasty......
> 
> Feral pigs are fun to hunt-though a  little scary, that's what makes them fun-they're smart, stronger than you and pretty well-armed. Use a primitive weapon (as I have) at the risk of pooping your pants!
> 
> Animals cannot, by definition, be "murdered.":
> 
> From the very excellent _Merriam Webster Collegiate English Language Technical Manualp_ (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.)



Knives and dogs here.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Do you eat meat?



doesn't matter. A lot of this evil pig killing that is done up here is soo they can grow vegetables.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> There's no doubt the hunt, the tracking and pitting of wits is fun but should the actual killing be 'fun' or should it be something that is done quickly and cleanly without a sense of enjoyment at the animals death? Should you feel pleasure at the sight of an animal's death throes?
> Without being over emotional or maudlin, no one should find pleasure in the death of any living being who hasn't actually done you harm. It's necessary to kill for food but it isn't necessary to glory in the death of the animal you kill. Hunting for trophies is just killing because you can, it's actually quite a childish thing to do, showing off to no actual point.



shouldn't find pleasure punching people in the face. But we all do martial arts.


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> feral pigs do nothing other than destroy our delicate ecosystem. Killing them is doing the environment a favor. It is the feral animals that are endangering the native animals.
> 
> So killing an animal that is basically not supposed to be there is more fun than killing an animal that is supposed to. That is why people kill ferals and not natives.


Agreed, I grew up in NZ so it is the same for possums, rabbits - and also pig and deer, non of those are endemic over there, they all wreck the ecosystem that did not develop with them in mind and so they are all open game. So I think I understand what you are saying in that they are "more fun" to kill than a native species (but my take on that is that, it is "better" to be hunting/killing these animals, rather than those that are a natural part of the environment). But I was trying to make the point that Tez3 summed up, in that no matter what you are hunting, the actual killing bit should not be deemed as "fun".

Going to extremes, if forced to make a decision between shooting an innocent 5 year old girl or a hardened criminal, I would take the criminal any time. But that doesn't mean pulling the trigger and putting a bullet in the crook's head would be fun (...okay if the crim was some scumbag paedo, murderer or rapist, then that might be fun...hmmm, maybe this analogy is not such a good one after all...)


----------



## Transk53

Blindside said:


> Do you eat meat?



Yes I do and I realize that by doing so that I am also mired in hypocrisy. Because I eat meat then, in your mind killing endangered species for fun is okay then? Well each to their own I guess.


----------



## Transk53

elder999 said:


> But elk, deer, bison, pig, sheep, turkey, rabbits, and squirrels are all delicious.
> 
> Actually, mountain lion backstraps are pretty tasty......
> 
> Feral pigs are fun to hunt-though a  little scary, that's what makes them fun-they're smart, stronger than you and pretty well-armed. Use a primitive weapon (as I have) at the risk of pooping your pants!
> 
> Animals cannot, by definition, be "murdered.":
> 
> From the very excellent _Merriam Webster Collegiate English Language Technical Manualp_ (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.)



Yes I realized that it was a narrow frame of reference.


----------



## elder999

Transk53 said:


> Yes I do and I realize that by doing so that I am also mired in hypocrisy. Because I eat meat then, in your mind killing endangered species for fun is okay then? Well each to their own I guess.


 
In Botswana, Zimbabwe and South Africa, the elephant is not "endangered." It is protected-and there are legal hunts. While elephant is likely delicious ,given the expense  and travel time involved, I can't imagine one hunts elephant for anything other than fun.


----------



## Blindside

Transk53 said:


> Yes I do and I realize that by doing so that I am also mired in hypocrisy. Because I eat meat then, in your mind killing endangered species for fun is okay then? Well each to their own I guess.



Your statement made no mention of endangered species, only that animals were "murdered" all over the globe.


----------



## Transk53

Blindside said:


> Your statement made no mention of endangered species, only that animals were "murdered" all over the globe.



That is what I meant. Like the Jaguar.


----------



## elder999

Transk53 said:


> That is what I meant. Like the Jaguar.


 
The jaguar is native to the Americas.

You mean leopard. Like the elephant, the leopard is not "endangered." It is protected in Zimbabwe and South Africa, and there are legal hunts there.


----------



## Transk53

elder999 said:


> The jaguar is native to the Americas.
> 
> You mean leopard. Like the elephant, the leopard is not "endangered." It is protected in Zimbabwe and South Africa, and there are legal hunts there.



No lol. I mean the Jaguar  Where is Darth Maul's twin when I need him lol


----------



## Tez3

there is only one Jaguar...


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> there is only one Jaguar...



Nah, Mk 2. Besides, are they now not just BMW made?


----------



## drop bear

Zero said:


> Agreed, I grew up in NZ so it is the same for possums, rabbits - and also pig and deer, non of those are endemic over there, they all wreck the ecosystem that did not develop with them in mind and so they are all open game. So I think I understand what you are saying in that they are "more fun" to kill than a native species (but my take on that is that, it is "better" to be hunting/killing these animals, rather than those that are a natural part of the environment). But I was trying to make the point that Tez3 summed up, in that no matter what you are hunting, the actual killing bit should not be deemed as "fun".
> 
> Going to extremes, if forced to make a decision between shooting an innocent 5 year old girl or a hardened criminal, I would take the criminal any time. But that doesn't mean pulling the trigger and putting a bullet in the crook's head would be fun (...okay if the crim was some scumbag paedo, murderer or rapist, then that might be fun...hmmm, maybe this analogy is not such a good one after all...)



Hunting costs more money and requires more effort than going to the shops. Generally. Killing for fun is a real and legitimate human endeavor.


----------



## drop bear

I run over Cain toads in my car. Does that make me a monster?


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Nah, Mk 2. Besides, are they now not just BMW made?




Not the Jags lol, our Landrover has a BMW engine though.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Not the Jags lol, our Landrover has a BMW engine though.



Yeah and soon to be no more. At least the Discovery according to Top Gear.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Yeah and soon to be no more. At least the Discovery according to Top Gear.




It's the Defender they aren't going to make anymore not the Disco. My other half is a bit distraught, he loves the Defender, he's drove so many, from the armoured ones in Northern Ireland to the desert ones in Doha, that's in wartime of course when your targets shoot back at you rather than be herded in front of you for an easy kill.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> It's the Defender they aren't going to make anymore not the Disco. My other half is a bit distraught, he loves the Defender, he's drove so many, from the armoured ones in Northern Ireland to the desert ones in Doha, that's in wartime of course when your targets shoot back at you rather than be herded in front of you for an easy kill.



Oh right okay. Misheard then.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Oh right okay. Misheard then.




Unless they changed their minds?


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> Knives and dogs here.


Yup, in NZ it is standard to hunt wild boar with team of dogs and to finish with a pig-sticker - a custom blade for that job.  You generally have shotgun or rifle to hand but with the dogs you can't usually finish with a gun so you need to go in.


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> Hunting costs more money and requires more effort than going to the shops. Generally. Killing for fun is a real and legitimate human endeavor.


Not sure about more money, once you have the gear but yes, definitely more effort.  And that's where part, or sometimes most, of the fun comes in and which makes for those epic adventures and sometimes mishaps that you remember and laugh about later!  : )


----------



## Zero

drop bear said:


> Hunting costs more money and requires more effort than going to the shops. Generally. Killing for fun is a real and legitimate human endeavor.


I think it may just be semantics and that we are generally seeing things in the same light.  I have no problem with the killing aspect as it is necessary and natural, it's just that I would put it as "_hunting_ for fun is a real and legitimate human endeavour".  The "_killing_ for fun" changes this somewhat.  Again, I have no problem and am in no way squeamish with the killing but it is the hunt I _*enjoy*_ not necessarily the pushing of a blade into something's eye or heart.


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## Tez3

Interesting thoughts in this article. Do Some People Simply Like to Kill Other Animals Psychology Today


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## drop bear

Zero said:


> I think it may just be semantics and that we are generally seeing things in the same light.  I have no problem with the killing aspect as it is necessary and natural, it's just that I would put it as "_hunting_ for fun is a real and legitimate human endeavour".  The "_killing_ for fun" changes this somewhat.  Again, I have no problem and am in no way squeamish with the killing but it is the hunt I _*enjoy*_ not necessarily the pushing of a blade into something's eye or heart.



then why kill?


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Interesting thoughts in this article. Do Some People Simply Like to Kill Other Animals Psychology Today



that was pointing the moral frowny face at pretty much everyone though. Even suggesting eating meat was morally wrong.


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## Tez3

Even more thoughts here, The Killing Game by Joy Williams Howling For Justice


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## Zero

drop bear said:


> then why kill?


Huh? Huh??  Look I know you're an Aussie but...!!  How am I to eat the stuff (deer/pig) or cull it (possum/rabbit) if I don't kill it?  The idea of skinning or eating an animal while it is still alive, if that is what you are implying, is just too much for me...(again, I am not an Aussie though!)


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## Zero

drop bear said:


> then why kill?


This is way crazy. 
Out of the hunting sphere which I have already answered above, in combat soldiers often find themselves having to kill as part of the bigger agenda either in self defence or proactive offense...the killing is unfortunately required but that does not mean they (or at least the far majority) "enjoy" it.
I am struggling to understand your question.

Are you saying that the only reason you should be doing any killing is because you find it enjoyable?


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## drop bear

Zero said:


> Huh? Huh??  Look I know you're an Aussie but...!!  How am I to eat the stuff (deer/pig) or cull it (possum/rabbit) if I don't kill it?  The idea of skinning or eating an animal while it is still alive, if that is what you are implying, is just too much for me...(again, I am not an Aussie though!)



hunt it let it go and eat a carrot like a civilized person.


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## Zero

drop bear said:


> hunt it let it go and eat a carrot like a civilized person.


Now that is where we will have to differ, I have a nagging fear regarding vegetarians, or civilised carrot-munchers, as you call them.  If they are not meat eaters, what is their real agenda?  I think there is something deeper to this than just not being carnivorous.  The thought of not finding a beautiful steak appealing does trouble me somewhat...


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## Cirdan

Zero said:


> Now that is where we will have to differ, I have a nagging fear regarding vegetarians, or civilised carrot-munchers, as you call them.  If they are not meat eaters, what is their real agenda?  I think there is something deeper to this than just not being carnivorous.



The truth is they are... Crab People!


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## Zero

Cirdan said:


> The truth is they are... Crab People!



??

I knew it!!  I used to share a room (office(!!), not bedroom, uhum, just to be clear...) with one of those things.  I think vegetarian-crab people may not eat other animals - but they are looking to harvest all us meat eaters when the time comes!!


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## Transk53

Zero said:


> Now that is where we will have to differ, I have a nagging fear regarding vegetarians, or civilised carrot-munchers, as you call them.  If they are not meat eaters, what is their real agenda?  I think there is something deeper to this than just not being carnivorous.  The thought of not finding a beautiful steak appealing does trouble me somewhat...



It is the Vegans that are the fanatics. The Veggies are just like the rest of us. For example my aunt eats fish. I did point out that fish suffer beyond suffering in death. She kinda shrugged, like we all do really.


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## Zero

Transk53 said:


> It is the Vegans that are the fanatics. The Veggies are just like the rest of us. For example my aunt eats fish. I did point out that fish suffer beyond suffering in death. She kinda shrugged, like we all do really.


What do you mean fish suffer? Is their death a particularly traumatic one when they are drowning out of water?


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## Transk53

Zero said:


> What do you mean fish suffer? Is their death a particularly traumatic one when they are drowning out of water?



Apparently so. I will try and find something to validate that. Although it could be an old wife's tale. I did hear it from a commercial fisherman where I work.


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## Cirdan

Transk53 said:


> Apparently so. I will try and find something to validate that. Although it could be an old wife's tale. I did hear it from a commercial fisherman where I work.



When fishing I always give the fishies I catch a merciful knife thru the head rather than letting them flop about suffocating. They deserve a clean death in return for filling my belly.


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## Transk53

Cirdan said:


> When fishing I always give the fishies I catch a merciful knife thru the head rather than letting them flop about suffocating. They deserve a clean death in return for filling my belly.



Yes that would be merciful. Having seen "Trawler Men" on Brit TV, I imagine they do not want to mark the fish when caught. Do you get plenty of Cod where you are?


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## Cirdan

Transk53 said:


> Yes that would be merciful. Having seen "Trawler Men" on Brit TV, I imagine they do not want to mark the fish when caught. Do you get plenty of Cod where you are?



If I go fishing it will be in the fjords where I grew up, don`t trust the fishies here in the capital they eat such odd things. Plenty of cod there, but I prefer the trout from rivers or mountain lakes. Mhhh trout sandwich with norwegian flatbread is one of the most delicious things there are.


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## Zero

Cirdan said:


> When fishing I always give the fishies I catch a merciful knife thru the head rather than letting them flop about suffocating. They deserve a clean death in return for filling my belly.


Yes, we had a special piece of wood with a nail driven through it for the same job, a quick end (still not a great one but at least quick).


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## Transk53

Cirdan said:


> If I go fishing it will be in the fjords where I grew up, don`t trust the fishies here in the capital they eat such odd things. Plenty of cod there, but I prefer the trout from rivers or mountain lakes. Mhhh trout sandwich with norwegian flatbread is one of the most delicious things there are.



Sounds lovely.


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