# Arnis Elbow... a little help here guys?



## geezer (Jun 5, 2016)

OK, in my case it's actually _Escrima Elbow. _Arnis Elbow just sounds better. The last few weeks I've had more time on my hands and, naturally I've spent it doing what I love. Stuff like swinging sticks _...a lot._ And hitting things. And increasingly I started getting an annoying pain in the tendons on the outside of my forearm around and just below the elbow. 

Anyway, like all stupid guys, I decided to just work through the pain. Instead it's getting noticeably _worse_ and the pain is beginning to make it hard to conduct class! So first I bought a little support band sorta like this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/03/7c/35/037c35cd51af0f9252449cbc1ac07f46.jpg

...but it's not enough. So currently, I'm using the band, trying to do most of my stick-work _with my left hand_, and generally trying to work softer and smoother and in general, more fluidly  ...and, of course getting out the ol' ibuprofen.  

My question is, will this be enough? In just over a month I'm flying to a big seminar in Austin. I might even get tested for rank in my empty handed art. Also, I plan to be teaching Escrima to our group there. What else can I do to get over this in time?

I did make an appointment to see my physician, but it will be a couple of weeks before he sees me. I gotta start getting into shape NOW! ...Any suggestions?


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## Danny T (Jun 5, 2016)

Sounds like lateral epicondylitis.
Ice, massage, rest, and NSAIDs like ibuprofen.


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2016)

By some grip gloves as well.  Take the pressure off a bit.


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## Buka (Jun 5, 2016)

Might want to go with an all out attack. Start consuming anti inflammatory foods (even if you don't like some of them) then, immediately, like tomorrow, go to an acupuncturist. And do hot/cold soaks at night when you're home for the day. Bucket of hot water, bucket of cold water - immerse in each for a minute, for fifteen minutes or so.

I so wish you luck, brother.


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## Juany118 (Jun 6, 2016)

Here is a question, for prevention. What position did you have your hand in?  A lot, not all, of the people I know who had that issue in FMA had it because they did an elbow strike with a closed fist.  As odd as it may sound to some (again maybe not you) having your hand open loosens various tendons and ligaments that can lead to elbow issues.

Beyond that Danny is dead on.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 6, 2016)

*Take a short break* and remember RICE = Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation.  Not to long ago my left elbow was really bothering me.  So I took a short break.  Iced it.  Bought a compression sleeve and elevated it.  Needless to say the break was pretty short!


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## jks9199 (Jun 6, 2016)

You might try light (5 to 10 lb) wrist rotations and curls, done in sets of 20 or so to build up the muscles that support it, too...


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Take a short break* and remember RICE = Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation.  Not to long ago my left elbow was really bothering me.  So I took a short break.  Iced it.  Bought a compression sleeve and elevated it.  Needless to say the break was pretty short!



Well,  ...I know it will probably get better _eventually, _but I want to to be ready in time for the upcoming seminar I mentioned, so I'm going to try pretty much the same things you mentioned above that worked for you. Thanks --Steve


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> You might try light (5 to 10 lb) wrist rotations and curls, done in sets of 20 or so to build up the muscles that support it, too...



Sounds like solid advice ...after I have healed up. I think my problem so fare has not been lack of conditioning so much as overtraining with too many light reps (working the sticks) ...leading to a sort of repetitive motion caused tendonitis. When I see my doc, hopefully he will have some advice, until then I'm gonna take it easy, and pretty much do what Brian said. Thanks again guys.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 8, 2016)

Geezer,

When I practice in the air I keep my stick 90 degrees to my forearm. This is a stronger position for the wrist. This means as the stick is coming to a stop in the air then the wrist is better supported and therefore less likely to to take the tip of the stick forward which the tendons inn the arm then use  to compensate and control the stick tip. 

I also try not to do the fanning motion (abanico) at full force. Keeping the write and 90 degrees requires more body movement of the knees and hips and you get more body behind the strikes and not just arm, which means that the body can also help absorb the stopping force in the air versus just the arms. 

I also stretch the inside tendons to make sure they are not tight and pulling on the outside to cause the imbalance and pain. Have some take your hand palm up and do finger locks by bending the fingers back to the person while keeping their palm up. they should go up on their toes. You may move to just the ring and middle finger or the ring and pinky depending upon your level of stretch. 

Good luck


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## Juany118 (Jun 10, 2016)

Oh forgot.  One of the things we do that helps protect during training is we wear leather wristlets.  If fitted right they provide stabilizing support and some compression and when doing disarm training with weapons they help to protecting from impact.


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## Argus (Aug 13, 2016)

Hey Geezer! Just noticed this post. I realize I'm a bit late to respond, but I'd like to offer my advise/research into the issue as I've been struggling with the same thing (but on the inside of the forearms and wrist).

Firstly, is it still going on, or are you completely healed? The most important thing is not to reinjure it, and to let it heal up completely. The difficult thing is that it isn't finished healing when you no longer feel pain. You'll think it's fine, and if you over do it, you will reinjure yourself and potentially instigate chronic injury.

This would be chronic tendonitis, or more appropriately termed, tendinosis, which is much more difficult to recover from. I've been struggling with it for over a year now. It's characterized by a degredation of the tendon itself due to repetitive injury, and there's no real treatment for it aside from rest, eccentric stretches, time (6+ months, and sometimes much longer), and proper nutrition. NSAIDS are not good for this type of injury and may actually slow healing, though they can be beneficial for non-chronic tendonitis.

Aside from rest, which is the most important thing you can do for this kind of injury (which ties in, also, to ergonomics. Try using lighter sticks for example, and with larger grips that are easier to handle, for example, if you want to continue with an activity), eccentric stretches are very good and help the tissue to heal back with proper orientation. Poorly healed tendons will become increasingly easier to injure, unfortunately. For your case, you want to stretch the tendons on the outside of the wrist and forearm, so extending your arm straight and bending your wrist down while resisting slightly against the stretch would be what you're looking to do. I prefer to use a wall or something to facilitate stretching so that I'm not exerting an equal strain on my opposite hand (as happens when you grab your fingers with your offhand to stretch, for example). 

Most importantly, though, is not to overuse and reinjure your tendons before they have fully and completely healed. For your injury that should be somewhat easier, as there aren't a whole lot of things that strain the tendons on the outside of your arms. It's much, much worse when you injure the tendons involved in gripping/squeezing/lifting things. I shouldn't even be typing this much, really, and even grasping light things such as picking up a cup can be strenuous at times =/

Pretty hard to go through life not using one's hands, though.


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2016)

Argus said:


> Hey Geezer! Just noticed this post. I realize I'm a bit late to respond, but I'd like to offer my advise/research into the issue as I've been struggling with the same thing (but on the inside of the forearms and wrist).
> 
> ...This would be chronic tendonitis, or more appropriately termed, *tendinosis*, which is much more difficult to recover from. I've been struggling with it for over a year now. It's characterized by a degredation of the tendon itself due to repetitive injury, and there's no real treatment for it aside from rest, eccentric stretches, time (6+ months, and sometimes much longer), and proper nutrition. NSAIDS are not good for this type of injury and may actually slow healing, though they can be beneficial for non-chronic tendonitis...



Argus, you were right on the money. The diagnosis _was_ chronic tendinosis (lateral epicondylitis) and my family doctor gave me a cortisone shot. ...Perhaps not the best idea in retrospect, but I went along with it and it did reduce the discomfort. I also consulted with a good PT who showed me some stretches, etc. and even gave me a round of "trigger-point needle therapy". Interesting. Sort of like acupuncture without the belief system of qi, meridians, and the like. Acupuncturists hate it. A lot of Western/scientificly oriented sources are interested in it. Could just be a placebo ... I don't know. 

Anyway, I also adapted my training so as to minimize the stress to the affected area. I simple don't do certain kinds of strikes. In fact I've been working on more eskrima staff work which seems less stressful. And, I am gradually improving. 

Unfortunately, another tendon problem, this time with my achilles tendon started cropping up about the same time and has deteriorated to the point that even walking is painful.  The symptoms align with descriptions I've read of "achilles bursitis".  I met another guy at the gym who said he'd been through the same thing and showed me some stretches. And even doing these exercises, he said it took him over a year to recover. Not good. I'm scheduled to se a specialist in a few weeks. The good news is that with my foot hurting so much, I don't even worry about my elbow!


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## Juany118 (Sep 10, 2016)

For the achilles issue I have something similar.  About 17 years ago I jacked my ankle in a foot pursuit.  I was did hurdles in high school and was using that form hurdling a bush that concealed one of those turn of the century wire fences, my trailing good snagged and I landed BADLY.  The workman's comp doctor at the time decided against surgery.  It was never quite the same but each year it becomes even "less" the same.  I have taken to filling a bucket with very warm water, epson salts and a cap or two of Lau Family Jow.  It is only temporary of course but it works really well.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 14, 2016)

geezer said:


> Argus, you were right on the money. The diagnosis _was_ chronic tendinosis (lateral epicondylitis) and my family doctor gave me a cortisone shot. ...Perhaps not the best idea in retrospect, but I went along with it and it did reduce the discomfort. I also consulted with a good PT who showed me some stretches, etc. and even gave me a round of "trigger-point needle therapy". Interesting. Sort of like acupuncture without the belief system of qi, meridians, and the like. Acupuncturists hate it. A lot of Western/scientificly oriented sources are interested in it. Could just be a placebo ... I don't know.
> 
> Anyway, I also adapted my training so as to minimize the stress to the affected area. I simple don't do certain kinds of strikes. In fact I've been working on more eskrima staff work which seems less stressful. And, I am gradually improving.
> 
> Unfortunately, another tendon problem, this time with my achilles tendon started cropping up about the same time and has deteriorated to the point that even walking is painful.  The symptoms align with descriptions I've read of "achilles bursitis".  I met another guy at the gym who said he'd been through the same thing and showed me some stretches. And even doing these exercises, he said it took him over a year to recover. Not good. I'm scheduled to se a specialist in a few weeks. The good news is that with my foot hurting so much, I don't even worry about my elbow!



Geezer,

I have a hard round ball with rounded spikes on it. I use it for plantar fasciitis , in my PT. The spikes or points help rub out the sore muscles. So I could see the needle working assisting. Also does your dock offer an ultra sound treatment after the shot, the warmth with the shot help the medicine (for me) work easier and see quicker results.


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## Argus (Oct 4, 2016)

geezer said:


> Argus, you were right on the money. The diagnosis _was_ chronic tendinosis (lateral epicondylitis) and my family doctor gave me a cortisone shot. ...Perhaps not the best idea in retrospect, but I went along with it and it did reduce the discomfort. I also consulted with a good PT who showed me some stretches, etc. and even gave me a round of "trigger-point needle therapy". Interesting. Sort of like acupuncture without the belief system of qi, meridians, and the like. Acupuncturists hate it. A lot of Western/scientificly oriented sources are interested in it. Could just be a placebo ... I don't know.
> 
> Anyway, I also adapted my training so as to minimize the stress to the affected area. I simple don't do certain kinds of strikes. In fact I've been working on more eskrima staff work which seems less stressful. And, I am gradually improving.
> 
> Unfortunately, another tendon problem, this time with my achilles tendon started cropping up about the same time and has deteriorated to the point that even walking is painful.  The symptoms align with descriptions I've read of "achilles bursitis".  I met another guy at the gym who said he'd been through the same thing and showed me some stretches. And even doing these exercises, he said it took him over a year to recover. Not good. I'm scheduled to se a specialist in a few weeks. The good news is that with my foot hurting so much, I don't even worry about my elbow!



I also have my achilles tendon bother me on occasion, but it's never gotten as bad as my wrists, thankfully.

One thing that I am looking into is nutrition and hydration, as well as sufficient sleep. Because these are repetitive stress injuries, essentially, the underlying cause is repetitive stress that has accumulated before the tendon in question has healed up completely from prior stresses. Several tendons being affected at once suggest a possible common source, which can very well be a lack of nutrition or hydration. Tendons are elastic, and staying hydrated can keep them in a more healthy / elastic state; and they need proper nutrition to heal up and stay in good condition. Sleep is also a factor in healing.

I don't know about you, but I'm quite thin / lightweight myself, and probably not the most consistent about eating and sleeping. Along with proper stretches and reducing stresses on the tendons, these are important factors to consider.


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## geezer (Oct 4, 2016)

Hey, I finally got that achilles thing checked out by a specialist. The x-rays showed that I've developed bone spurs on the back of my heel that "intrude" upward into the achilles tendon. That and also a "Haglund's deformity" (boney heel bump) developing. The corrective surgery looks pretty nasty, so for the time being the doc counseled a "conservative" approach and put me on some really strong nsaids. They do help but also make my stomach hurt, so I'm using them ....with restraint. I do OK on the job and in MA class, but I'm not well enough to get back to jogging or at least brisk hill-walking in the Phoenix Mountain Preserve. And without that, I'm definitely getting chubby!  Time to fix up the old bike I guess.


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## Juany118 (Oct 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> Hey, I finally got that achilles thing checked out by a specialist. The x-rays showed that I've developed bone spurs on the back of my heel that "intrude" upward into the achilles tendon. That and also a "Haglund's deformity" (boney heel bump) developing. The corrective surgery looks pretty nasty, so for the time being the doc counseled a "conservative" approach and put me on some really strong nsaids. They do help but also make my stomach hurt, so I'm using them ....with restraint. I do OK on the job and in MA class, but I'm not well enough to get back to jogging or at least brisk hill-walking in the Phoenix Mountain Preserve. And without that, I'm definitely getting chubby!  Time to fix up the old bike I guess.



Definitely time to fix up the bike but, with what you describe, make sure you keep your foot parallel to the ground with your pedal stroke. (Bicycle geekdom is my other vice  here is a photo of the "other me" at an amateur cyclocross race a few years ago) if you look at my right leg you will see I tend to tilt my toes to the ground on the down stroke, which doesn't cause me any issue but my cause an issue with your condition


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