# Very, very discouraged - It seems Taekwondo is not for me



## PeterMichaelF (Nov 22, 2021)

Hello everyone,

It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.

I had my first Taekwondo lesson in September, when I was 56. I'm 57 now. All my life, I've been s*** when it comes to physical activity. I know having negative thoughts about oneself is not good, but I've found that being realistic as far as one's limitations are concerned saves lots of frustration. At school, I was the worst in PE class. I had little strength, endurance, speed, flexibility, stamina, and close to no coordination. I've never been able to do a single press-up in all my life. I dreaded running towards the vaulting horse, knowing I'd never be able to jump it. I was so scared of dangling from the wall bars that I would end up dropping to the ground when my weak sweaty hands would no longer hold me.

Saying that I didn't like physical exercise would be putting it mildly. However, my parents put me down for the school's basketball team and, clumsy as I was, I enjoyed the training sessions twice a week. But I was so bad at it that when we went to play against other schools on Saturdays, the manager wouldn't let me play, not even when only five of us showed up for the game. A team of four was better than a team of five including me (the manager's professional ethics might be the subject of another discussion, but it's not something that bothers me, and even then I saw it as normal). I blundered my way through ir for four years, and then I didn't do any sport at all until I went to university. There, I joined the rugby team for three years. I knew I wasn't going anywhere, but I saw them during training sessions, and they seemed to have fun... So I joined, and I had fun, too. This is when I realised how badly the basketball manager had behaved. In the rugby team, those who trained harder and showed more interest would play all the games, even if they weren't good. What I usually did is claim I was very tired (and I wasn't lying) and ask for a change during the intermission, knowing it would be good for the team, and also good for me (I can't deny that, much as I enjoyed training, I was terrified during the games, whenever I saw one of these giants running towards me).

I was 21 when I quit, and then I didn't do any type of sport until I was 45 or 46. At that point, I realised that my perpetual "off-formness" was getting even more serious when I saw I wasn't able to cut my toenails any longer (I'm 5'7" and weigh 183 pounds, with rolls of fat, though I like loose clothes and people seem to think I'm in good shape when they see me - I've always been sort of "high-density", even when I was slim as a teenager, but I'm clearly overweight now, though I wouldn't say I'm obese). Someone suggested that I did some Pilates. I hated every minute of it. I felt as if in the school gym again. But I knew I needed to do something, and I know things don't come easy, least of all for me, so I endured that absolute torture for one year and five months, but gave up when I saw it was taking its toll on my morale. I work long hours, so finding the time to go to the gym on weekdays was really a feat for me, and some days I came out of there almost with tears in my eyes, on wasting my time on something I loathed.

Funnily for someone so little sport-oriented as me, the idea of Taekwondo started going around my head about six years ago, when I met a young boy who competed at a national level; we were workmates for some time, and I got to hear a lot about what he did. Somehow I thought I might like it. But I quickly discarded it, because I saw it more or less as feasible as becoming an astronaut. However, last year was an extremely demanding one at work. It left me close to a nervous breakdown, and I decided I had to do something with my life instead of just working all day. I don't like doing sport, but I thought that it would be good for my health, and it would allow me doing something different, even if it meant taking those hours from my sleep (with my job and my housework, which I must do myself, I have absolutely no free time except on Saturday evenings and Sundays). Then I remembered Taekwondo.

I read lots of things on the internet. Everybody says one can start martial arts at any age, as long as you go at your own pace and don't try to do things as quickly as others. This sounded great: with my background, I'm very conscious that I'll need five years to achieve what others do in one. But I didn't (don't) mind. So I enrolled in classes last September.

I've been doing two sessions a week since then (I cannot afford to spend more time doing it). And I thought it was fun from the very beginning. It's true that after the five-to-ten-minute warm-up I'm already in a terrible condition, ready to go and have a shower, but I bravely go on, trying to do things as well as I can (which is not very well, of course). While other people who started at the same time as me (a couple of them in their forties) are able to kick at chest level, I still seem to be intent on proving that a kick in the crotch is the best method of self-defence. But I didn't mind. And neither did I mind being the only one who wouldn't be doing the test for yellow belt in December. Well, I don't even have a white belt, actually, since the instructor said we the "elderly" shouldn't buy a dobok until we knew we were going to carry on doing Taekwondo; little by little, he told other students to buy theirs, but after almost three months I'm the only one wearing a T-shirt and tracksuit trousers (this was the only thing I wasn't completely happy about, as I thought I would be less noticeable if I dressed like the rest). Anyway, as I said, I was having a very good time, even having already tasted that life is not a bowl of cherries when I was kicked on the face when failing to dodge someone's foot quickly enough (no tooth was broken, I was able to swallow all the blood, and my swollen lip wasn't seen because of the mask, so not even the instructor noticed anything and I didn't kick up a fuss).

Everything was going well until today. I don't have any technique to speak of, but I've done one of my pseudo-kicks today worse than usual, and I've felt a pain in the back of my leg. I finished the session, had a shower, and when I was limping my way out of the gym, the instructor called me and told me I should stop doing Taekwondo and start doing workouts in the gym instead. I asked whether that meant improving my shape before returning to the dojo, and he said "More or less". Then I asked him how much he'd think it might take, and he answered "These things last a lifetime". I would have thought that after seeing me struggling for almost three months he had realised that I'm in no hurry, but I've found his answer very discouraging.

I'm aware that I cannot do any sport unless I'm more or less fit. But I had hoped I'd get fit by learning Taekwondo, little by little. I can understand how once you reach a certain level, working out at the gym will help you increase your strength, or agility, or whatever. But I cannot help having the impression that I've been dumped. I foresee the gym will be a drag, close to the nightmare PE was at school. I cannot picture myself lifting weights just because; if I did it so as to improve some aspect of my performance at Taekwondo, I think I'd do it gladly. Maybe knowing that at some point I'll be allowed to return to the Taekwondo lessons might be enough, I don't know. But I suspect that's not going to be the case. I believe I'll end up not reaching the level required to take up Taekwondo again, and while I would enjoy the process of struggling with my mock-Taekwondo with the idea of getting a yellow belt some day, I don't think I'll enjoy the process of sweating at the gym doing things I don't like with little prospect of doing Taekwondo afterwards.

I'm feeling very depressed now. I've never liked sports like running, swimming or doing gymnastics in general. Other sports are more appealing to me, though not all, but I know I'm very bad at them. And, anyway, where I live there's not much to choose from. I've never minded being reminded of how bad I am, because I knew it was true. And when just for once I find the courage to decide I'm going to devote the free time I don't really have to trying to get a bit fitter while having fun, even knowing I will never really succeed, and I find that I actually have fun doing it, I'm told to quit. In normal conditions I can only sleep six hours a day. On the two days I went to Taekwondo, I went to bed almost one hour later than usual. I've been doing it gladly, but I don't think I can do the same to go to the gym. All I wanted was to do something I like in the middle of a life I don't like at all, and now I'll be adding two hours a week of something I dislike. And thinking of getting healthier doesn't make it worth it, I'm sad to say. When I was young, I never noticed any improvement in speed, endurance, strength and all the rest, so I'm afraid I won't notice it now, in the same way I didn't notice it in the almost one year and a half I attended Pilates classes. And what I was looking for when I enrolled in the Taekwondo lessons wasn't getting fitter (though, of course, that was a bonus), but being happier.

Of course, I know you cannot tell me much without knowing or seeing me but, from what you've seen around you, what would you recommend? Should I quit the gym and devote those two hours a week to sleeping, as I did before, or to painting lessons, which I'd also like trying? Is there any way I can measure my (supposed) progress in the gym? I mean, if I spend one month rupturing myself with a one kilo dumbbell in each hand without being able to move on to two-kilo ones, should I assume I'll never go back to the dojo? Are all those blogs and website lying when they say anyone can try Taekwondo at any age? I know all of you would recommend doing exercise in any case, because of good health and all that, but I don't want to go back to the depressive mood I had after Pilates. With this lack of motivation, I know I'll never return after Christmas.

And, on top of all this, the pain in the back of my leg which prompted all this is killing me. I can't even sit straight. All for nothing.

Thanks for reading this far, if you did.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 22, 2021)

Firstly, I’d like to commend you for the physical and mental effort it takes to go in and push your way through class despite not having the conditioning or coordination that your fellow students have. It’s not easy to make yourself show up and do the work when you don’t have the habit of working out and aren’t getting the immediate positive feedback of seeing rapid progress.

Secondly, I’d like to say that by asking you to quit, your TKD instructor was just showing his limitations as a teacher. Your original goal of getting in shape gradually by doing an enjoyable activity such as martial arts is completely reasonable and realistic.

I’m 57 years old, the same as you, and like you I am on the bottom of the bell curve distribution in terms of natural coordination and athleticism. The only difference is that I was lucky enough to start training and fall in love with martial arts 40 years ago, when my body could recover from workouts and injuries a bit quicker. These days I think I can realistically evaluate myself as an above average martial artist, just by virtue of having kept at it despite the lack of natural ability.

 I do think that unless you live in a very small town with limited options in terms of schools, you should be able to find a martial arts instructor who has the right attitude and experience to help an out of shape late starter like yourself get into shape and develop skills you can be proud of. There have been plenty of people older and more out of shape than you who have made that journey. Speaking as a martial arts instructor, I would be happy to help you along that path if you were in my gym, and there are plenty of other instructors out there who can do the same.

If you do decide to spend some time in the gym as a supplement to martial arts training, I would suggest that it might be worth paying for some sessions with a personal trainer who can teach you good form and help you set realistic progression goals. There is absolutely no reason for you to “spend one month rupturing myself with a one kilo dumbbell in each hand without being able to move on to two-kilo ones”. You shouldn’t be ”rupturing” yourself with weights and you absolutely be able to see progress in your first month of weight lifting. But sometimes you need some expert guidance to set you on the right track.


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## MadMartigan (Nov 22, 2021)

Hard to beat Tony's response, but I'll second what he said. The biggest factor in choosing where to train is finding the right fit for you.

I also recommend that people do not buy a uniform immediately, until they are sure they will stick with it. That said, I don't tell them when that is, they do. If it's been a month, I'll remind the person that they should be getting one soon... but if they come to me on their 3rd class sure they want one, they can buy one. 

I would suggest not to worry about the name on the door (this is coming from a Taekwondo teacher). Find a school that fits your needs. From your post, a traditional Karate (or TKD if you can find it) may suit you better. I'd look for a school with a focus on practice for personal over competition reasons. You will likely find other people in a similar place as you, without the pressure to keep up with athletic 20 year olds.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 22, 2021)

Find a different teacher.  That teacher did you a disservice.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 22, 2021)

I agree with everybody.  Karate is an activity that can be enjoyed (and benefit from) at any age.  Close to 100 years ago, several masters said the same thing.

Find a school that will recognize your _desire to do martial arts_ (this is what a good instructor should put first) and let you progress at your own pace. Everyone has their own _timing _and should flow with it.

As for getting kicked in the face, IMO this is something that should not happen at your stage of training.  There is another thread where the issue of beginners doing sparring came up.  I am against it.  Light sparring after your first or second belt makes more sense to me.  When you don't have a grip on the basics, sparring has limited value.

A good TDK school is fine, but don't limit your search to it.  A traditional Japanese or Okinawan style school may suit your needs as well or better (not so much emphasis on head kicks.)    Consider YOUR goals and pick a school that you feel can best help you achieve them.

Don't give up.  Good luck.


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## Holmejr (Nov 22, 2021)

For the record, I’m 66 years of age. I Agree, find another school/Instructor. Also, there is always pickle ball. I also play tennis, but have run into a ton of 50’s, 60’s folk that are not necessarily super athletic, but love pickle ball. Just enough exercise, just enough competition and a nice social environment.


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## J. Pickard (Nov 23, 2021)

Tony put it best. I agree, the instructor wasn't experienced enough to work with you and your abilities. If you really enjoyed it then it would be beneficial to look for another TKD dojang or even a karate dojo that is similar that you could join.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 23, 2021)

Welcome, thank you so much for sharing that.

It is truly, incredibly sad that an instructor would do this. Truly. Some great advice above, I would absolutely look for another school. Trust me, they are NOT all like this. You clearly enjoy martial arts training, I would definitely follow that. Scope out a few places in your area, and even explain to the instructor either what happened, or just what training will mean for you, and why you want to train.

Please let us know how you go, and definitely don't give up in this pursuit. It will be well, well worth it


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## caped crusader (Nov 23, 2021)

I think before you start any other system again you need to get your mental thinking on par. Try joining a swimming class first with some cycling to start to get you in shape. When you're in better shape your mentality will change. More positive, not negative as you are now. Sorry but that's the way it is. The instructor Sounds like a karate guy I met years ago, not good. Full of himself.  You have low self esteem and the time to baby you is over. It's up to you to sort it out no one else. I agree with some comments in that you would be better in an Okinawan school. I have known people with your mentality who said I will change and went on to do tough mudder contest which is assault course over mud and water. It will toughen you mentally and physically.  You need to change not everyone else. Only you...


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## Instructor (Nov 23, 2021)

All good responses.  I'm so proud of this community.  Most of my students are between the ages of 45 and 60.  You can do this, be patient and find a patient teacher.  We've all limped out of a few classes with pain from time to time at every age.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 23, 2021)

Like everyone else said You should definitely look for a new school.  BUT if you decide to keep training or not to keep training You need to get yourself in better health for your own sake and to make life generally easier.  Talk to your doctor about starting a program see if they can recommend a nutritionist and a physical trainer.  Someone that can take your current limitations and design a program that will help you get stronger and healthier.  You dont want to be carrying around all that extra weight and the associated health risks (diabetes, high blood pressure, and cholesterol, etc.)  As someone who personally let himself go for a few years and was very unhealthy, I can tell you First YOU CAN DO IT! Second, it won't be easy you didn't get to where you are overnight and you won't get to where you want to be overnight both require time.   But getting yourself in better shape will help relieve the little aches and pains you describe.  
I also think you are being a little harder on yourself than you should be.  If you were able to keep up with the class for several months then you have the will and the want too.  That's way more than a lot of people who just never start.  Keep that drive going even if it's not in TKD.  Make it a habit and keep it up just whatever you decide don't quit and spend that time sleeping you will never get better that way.  I personally follow a group on facebook called Jym Army 1000s of people in all different points in their health journey from professional bodybuilders and athletes to Guys like you who are just starting out and have no idea what to do.  You dont need to follow them but there are plenty of groups like that out there.  So be proud that you were able to keep going to class 2 days a week for several months now keep that momentum going.


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## MadMartigan (Nov 23, 2021)

One last note: A martial arts school should be where you go to get in shape. Helping you get into shape to perform that school's curriculum is the instructors job. It's like telling you to get smarter before starting school.
Most fitness is fairly sport specific. I've seen marathon runners puke from the plyometric workout of a martial arts class. The reverse is also true. Being great at jumping kicks does almost nothing to make you a better long distance runner.
I always tell people. If you want to get fit for martial arts... do martial arts.


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## themadbuddha (Nov 23, 2021)

From someone who was young and stupid many years ago and took anti-inflammatories to get through multiple injuries just to train more, get your injury looked at first. Get back on your feet and comfortable enough to sit properly then work on small steps both literally and figuratively. Pain is your body's way of telling you something is wrong so go to an expert like a physiotherapist and work on a plan to get you whole again. And don't rely on the meds, work to get med free. 

Don't necessarily think of giving up on martial arts because it is about you and your teacher and the people you train with. Instead, make finding the one that works for you part of your plan for health and fitness. Until then, you have pain issues to work out. 

I do FMA, I used to do CMA and I have started HEMA (July this year). All are fun and more related than one would think, but I injured both shoulders (supraspinatus in both from helping people move house) and in order for me to just weight train, I've had to spend 6 months in physiotherapy to get significantly less pain, much more mobility and range of motion and strength back.

After or during, start looking at what's out there near you. Talk to people and the teachers and see who you click with then when you are ready, give it a go. Try beginner's courses in all sorts of things so the commitment is finite unless you get hooked.

I spent most of my 40s ignoring warning signs. I turned 50 with Type 2, joint and weight issues. Had to do the hard stuff, diet and exercise but in CovidWorld, our gyms are closed, exercise classes are limited, all regular training is off and everything is just harder but you need to look after your health first. I have discovered a simple walk outside is something I can really look forward to and I plan walks like I am a tourist so a new park/area each weekend.

TL;DR fix your injury, get stronger, find what you like doing with people you like doing it with, go for it.


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## PeterMichaelF (Nov 23, 2021)

First of all, thank you very much for all your answers. I've read each of them carefully, and I'll try to follow your advice as much as I can.

The biggest problem is that I live in a small place where there's not much to choose from. There are two gyms, and a school specifically for Taekwondo. As for martial arts, the only options are Taekwondo in the gym I went to, Judo in the other gym, and the TKD school. The problem with the school is that they only train children, although afterwards they can remain there for as long as they want, so they only have a few people over 20 who are already black belts. They won't take adults and teach them from scratch. For some reason, I've never liked Judo. Which leaves me only with one possibility, the one I tried. Which is not bad, as Taekwondo is the only martial art I like (though, basically, like most people where I am, I only know Taekwondo, Judo and Karate). All other activities in the gyms don't appeal to me at all: things like aerobics, Pilates, yoga, zumba, indoor cycling, or fitness exercises.

Someone's mentioned that it's me who should change. That's probably true, but I don't really think I'm that negative about myself. If I were, I would have never even tried to do Taekwondo in the first place. I'm realistic enough to know that I won't get as far as others, and that it'll take me much longer to get wherever I get than it would take others. It's true that I don't believe in "where there is a will there is a way" (or everybody would be world champion of something). I do believe that hard work will take you as far as you can go (which is usually farther away than you thought before trying), but not further, because everyone has his own limits. I may be wrong, of course. We all seem to assume there are people who cannot paint, or do maths, or play an instrument, beyond a certain point, because they don't have it in them what is required to be really good at it. But when it comes to physical exercise, everybody tells you that all you need to do is work harder. And that only makes you feel worse when you're below par. Besides, those of us who are bad at / hate sports and physical exercise are unlucky in that it's something everybody should do. If you hate maths, or chemistry, or history, you can avoid them completely from the time you're 16 on. But if you hate sports, everybody tells you you must put up with it and do it. And I cannot change that; I cannot change my tastes (I'd have to be born again), though I can try and see whether I end up liking something or not. I tried Pilates, which didn't attract me a priori, and hated it. In spite of it, I did it for almost one year and a half, hoping I'd get to like it, but I didn't. I tried Taekwondo, which did attract me, and liked it a lot. But there aren't many sports I'd like to do. The only other I can think of is roller hockey, and I cannot do it for three reasons: it can't be done in my town, I wouldn't be too happy doing a team sport in which I'd hinder the progress of the whole team, and I'd get a broken neck in about half an hour (of course, I cannot skate, and I'd have to learn).

As I said, the two activities I considered as an outlet for my frustration at work were Taekwondo and painting. My tastes alone would have made me choose painting, but I chose TWD because I thought it would be good for my health, too. Though I never did I had any sort of pain because of being in bad shape. On the contrary, my health is good, even if I'm an overweight sedentary person, according to all medical examinations. But I'm aware that doing exercise will always be good and help postpone the health problems everybody is likely to have at some point. Anyway, I chose Taekwondo because I wanted to have fun. Getting fit was just a (desirable) side effect.

Anyway, sorry for all this. It sounds like I'm trying to justify myself, and though it's likely that's exactly what I'm doing, it's not what I wanted to do.

I still don't know what I'll do. As I said, I cannot change my instructor, though I can send an e-mail to the TWD school saying I'd be interested in classes for adult beginners, hoping more people does the same, and they decide to start teaching it. As someone said, maybe if the school is not so oriented towards competition they will be more patient and adaptable. But I would have thought that an instructor with an 8th degree black belt would know better than to dispose of a student only because he is much slower and clumsier than average. Even if he couldn't give me the personal attention I should have required, I wonder whether I was such a hindrance to the rest of the students.

I feel stupid. I hoped to reach an objective (getting fit) by doing something I like (Taekwondo). I now I'll end up doing something I hate (gym) to reach that same objective and be allowed to do the thing I wanted to do in the first place. And not being even sure whether I'll get it, or when. It doesn't look like the best scenario for someone with as little motivation as me.

Anyway, thanks once more, everyone. It's hearwarming to see how many of you took the time to help and encourage me. I'll really try and find a solution.


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## PeterMichaelF (Nov 23, 2021)

themadbuddha said:


> From someone who was young and stupid many years ago and took anti-inflammatories to get through multiple injuries just to train more, get your injury looked at first. Get back on your feet and comfortable enough to sit properly then work on small steps both literally and figuratively. Pain is your body's way of telling you something is wrong so go to an expert like a physiotherapist and work on a plan to get you whole again. And don't rely on the meds, work to get med free.



Sorry, I didn't see your message had arrived while I was typing mine. I'll certainly take care of my leg. I'm feeling better today, though I've taken some anti-inflammatory because I had to go to work today and I didn't know how I was going to do it otherwise. But tomorrow I'm planning on going there with the pill in my pocket, and take it only if I cannot stand it (I hope I won't need it). I've already made an appointment with a physiotherapist for next week.


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## themadbuddha (Nov 23, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> Sorry, I didn't see your message had arrived while I was typing mine. I'll certainly take care of my leg. I'm feeling better today, though I've taken some anti-inflammatory because I had to go to work today and I didn't know how I was going to do it otherwise. But tomorrow I'm planning on going there with the pill in my pocket, and take it only if I cannot stand it (I hope I won't need it). I've already made an appointment with a physiotherapist for next week.


No problem and great to hear about the physio. I hope they are very hands on and practical and you get along like a pair of old friends. Just be mindful of your body and do what you feel you need to, trying to ignore pain can lead to more injuries. And don't rush things.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 23, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> First of all, thank you very much for all your answers. I've read each of them carefully, and I'll try to follow your advice as much as I can.
> 
> The biggest problem is that I live in a small place where there's not much to choose from. There are two gyms, and a school specifically for Taekwondo. As for martial arts, the only options are Taekwondo in the gym I went to, Judo in the other gym, and the TKD school. The problem with the school is that they only train children, although afterwards they can remain there for as long as they want, so they only have a few people over 20 who are already black belts. They won't take adults and teach them from scratch. For some reason, I've never liked Judo. Which leaves me only with one possibility, the one I tried. Which is not bad, as Taekwondo is the only martial art I like (though, basically, like most people where I am, I only know Taekwondo, Judo and Karate). All other activities in the gyms don't appeal to me at all: things like aerobics, Pilates, yoga, zumba, indoor cycling, or fitness exercises.
> 
> ...


You aren’t stupid for trying to pursue something that you found interesting.  

In what area do you live?  Perhaps someone here knows of a low-key school you are unaware of.  Perhaps you can look a bit further afield, to find other options.  Might need to travel a bit farther, but if it’s a good school for you, could be well worth it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 23, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> It's true that I don't believe in "where there is a will there is a way" (or everybody would be world champion of something). I do believe that hard work will take you as far as you can go (which is usually farther away than you thought before trying), but not further, because everyone has his own limits. I may be wrong, of course.


So here's the thing - you're not wrong that everybody has their limits. Not everyone can be a world champion, even with the most positive of thinking. However, hardly anyone ever bumps against their true absolute genetic limits. It requires way more time, hard work, and dedication to reach our maximum potential in any field than most of us are willing to put in. (I've certainly never come close to those limits for myself and even most of the pro fighters I work with are significantly short of their true limits.)  You may not have the potential to be a pro athlete or even a high-level amateur competitor, but I can guarantee that you can reach at least the level of the average TKD first degree black belt, and quite likely a few steps beyond that.

It may be a problem if you have limited school options in your area, but sometimes you can find smaller, non-commercial clubs which might be under your radar.


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## auntlisa1103 (Nov 23, 2021)

I second and third and etc’th the sentiment that this instructor is not a good one for people with challenges.

It’s not you. It’s him.

I started TKD at 38, blind in one eye, type 1 diabetic, with two subpar knees and zero balance or coordination. I once held myself back from a test because I couldn’t put BOTH a 180 AND a jump on a side kick (my board break for that test). I wanted another testing period to work on it. My grand master’s response was “okay but I only give people one. You try to tell me that next time and I’m going to say no, you’re going.”

I never got it. And he actually put me under a “nothing off the ground” restriction for the next two tests. He is ADAMANT that TKD is a Do. A Way. It’s about finding YOUR path. To this DAY (three years later) I can do a jump side or a 180 side, but I can’t do a jump 180 side. I just don’t have the balance amid rotation.

My GM is fond of saying, at rank presentation time, that if you received a new rank tonight you have done everything he has asked of you.

The best instructors meet their students where they are at and help them find their path.

Also, Willie Nelson earned 5th Dan in Gongkwon Yusul at 81 years old AND is a 2nd Dan in TKD. So yes. *With the right instructor*, anyone can do this at any age.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 23, 2021)

Something to keep in mind is a lot of schools aren't good at marketing. There are plenty of schools in my area that you would not find through standard google searching, but require either more intensive searching/luck, or knowing someone that goes there.


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## themadbuddha (Nov 23, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> The biggest problem is that I live in a small place where there's not much to choose from.


May as well ask your physio because there's an extremely good chance they have treated martial artists in your area.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2021)

1. *You have to change your perception about physical activity*.  
You keep thinking that you have to be good at it.  Learn how to enjoy the training. Set mini goals. Get the small wins. 

2. This is what I keep seeing repeating over in over in your point.  You see doom where there is none.


PeterMichaelF said:


> I foresee the gym will be a drag, close to the nightmare PE was at school. I cannot picture myself lifting weights just because; if I did it so as to improve some aspect of my performance at Taekwondo,


Lifting weights is a healthy thing.  If it's something that's boring for you then play some good music while you work out. Add some enjoyment to you.  Ten 3 minute songs = 30 minutes of working out.  Make it to that last song that should be something you really want to hear.  You have to do something to get out of that perception that you have about physical activity.  

Everyone has time to do things.  We just don't have time to do everything on the same day.  You may have to sacrifice some things and move them to a different time slot or different day or you may have to change it completely by using an alternative..

Alternative to going to class at least 3 days week = Spend 2 days in class and 3 days training at home.
Alternative to going to the gym - Buy some resistance bands and workout at home. 
Make lifting weights part of your Martial arts training warmup.

. 15 minutes with the resistance bands and 30 minutes with the Martial Arts.



PeterMichaelF said:


> if I spend one month rupturing myself with a one kilo dumbbell in each hand without being able to move on to two-kilo ones, should I assume I'll never go back to the dojo?


Buy a resistance band.  I don't know how you got hurt lifting that. It makes me think you were lifting incorrectly or doing something that isn't good to do with weight.  If that's not it then you may need to see a doctor to see if something physically or medically that is not allowing your body to handle such a weight. 

Muscle weakness could be a sign of something else.  I'm only saying this because you are having such a difficult time with such a small weight. The only time I had muscle weakness like that was due to an injury or a tendon that got wrapped around the wrong way.



PeterMichaelF said:


> And, on top of all this, the pain in the back of my leg which prompted all this is killing me. I can't even sit straight. All for nothing.


You may have a back injury.  Sometimes when you injure your back it will affect your leg.  Saying that you can't sit straight makes me think that you have a back injury.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Nov 26, 2021)

I suggest u find a martial Arts teacher that will train you good and workout u good also teach you good and a good teacher will give ya advice


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## bill miller (Nov 26, 2021)

There are some wonderful comments that have been post here by folks who have knowledge,as well as experience, so I would like to offer my humble suggestion. If you can find a class, try Tai Chi. This will help with your balance, focus, and endurance, as well as getting you more flexible. This art can be an excellent compliment to your TKD training, should you choose to go back and try again.


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## caped crusader (Nov 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lifting weights is a healthy thing.


being honest when i read the OP´s post i thought what the hell does he like? It´s just like he has been wrapped in cotton wool all his life.  needs to man up ! Probably get comments now saying but don´t be so hard...blah..blah...  outside the world is not so caring. 
just my take on it


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 27, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> being honest when i read the OP´s post i thought what the hell does he like? It´s just like he has been wrapped in cotton wool all his life.  needs to man up ! Probably get comments now saying but don´t be so hard...blah..blah...  outside the world is not so caring.
> just my take on it


Well hopefully this video will be of use for that 1 press up.


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## caped crusader (Nov 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Well hopefully this video will be of use for that 1 press up.


I actually had more time for overweight people in the gym who were motivated  than people forced by their health insurance to do it. I remember a woman who in our talk before training said the health insurance are paying for my membership as she was very overweight,  high blood pressure. Her face on the running machine (she was walking at a slight incline). She showed her disgust at having to do it. She never came back. However when I had people like a 40 year old guy,  who at 39 had a heart attack and was sent to us. I felt really bad for him. He was slim and looked fit on the outside. Was really depressed, was on medication for his heart and depression. He was happy to be helped and made great improvements. Different people, Different mentalities.  Taking my own advice myself upping my cardio. Come summer I want to be running in the woods again. Cycling is going well and my Quads are firming up. Tight Buns on the squats...like a sex machine baby ...haha


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## caped crusader (Nov 27, 2021)

Here is another point for the OP...maybe he needs a training partner to encourage him. I used to run with people who were better runners than me to kick my ***. A good friend sadly move to Denmark..Well was good for him as he met a woman. He did Marathons, iron man and believe me it was hard for me training with him as I've never been a top runner..maybe above average but not in his League. However because he was Ultra keen he would turn up at my home..regardless of the weather. Running gear on let's do it ! 
I miss the runs, cycling together and the comradship it gives you. So maybe after all this rambling the OP needs a Partner.


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## caped crusader (Nov 27, 2021)

Arnold rambles on like me...   but he's correct.


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## PeterMichaelF (Nov 27, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> being honest when i read the OP´s post i thought* what the hell does he like?* It´s just like he has been wrapped in cotton wool all his life.  needs to man up ! Probably get comments now saying but don´t be so hard...blah..blah...  outside the world is not so caring.
> just my take on it



The short answer is: almost anything but physical activity. You know, some people don't like maths, or chemistry, or history, and it's very easy for them not to have any contact with any of those things after they are 16. Or if you don't like ironing your clothes, you can pay someone else to do it for you. But when the only subject you don't like, or rather, you _hate_, is PE, you can either choose to forget completely about it, which most people in that situation would do, or at least try and have a go at doing something because even if it's the last thing on earth that you'd do, short of having a tooth pulled out, you know it's good for you. Which is what I was trying to do.

For the last fifteen years of my life I've had a job that takes up most of my time, and I when I started -at an age when just having the possibility to find a job is so important that it being awful doesn't matter at all- I was forced to quit all  the activities I was doing back then (which included playing electric bass in a band, cross-stitching, attending chess lessons, being in a photography club, and studying for my third university degree in art history after having finished others in electrical engineering and English literature). So, well, what the hell do I like? As I said, almost anything but physical activity.

I've never thought you must be good at something to enjoy it. I wasn't especially good at chess, and my photographs suck, but I never missed one of the monthly evenings out the club used to organise to take photos. I wasn't good at those things, but I enjoyed them. And, what's more, there are things I am good at which I don't like too much. I'm a very good cook, though I cannot say I like it. But it's one of those things you have to do unless you want to end up eating precooked unhealthy food. So, not even in my apparently negative outlook on life does being good at something have to do with liking or disliking it.

I carry on thinking I haven't got a negative view of myself. I'm very bad, extremely bad, at physical activity. I'm bad, average, good or very good at other things. And that's all there is to it. What's the problem with being aware of it? Do we all have strong and weak points? Yes. Is there room for improvement in both cases? Yes. Are we ALL more willing to put effort into things we like than into things we don't like? Yes. Is everybody willing to put some effort into the things he doesn't like at all? No. Am I? Yes, that's what I was doing.

And the effort was huge, believe me. I get up every morning at 4.45am, leave home at 5.30am to arrive to my workplace at 7.00 am (yes, I'm adult enough to realise that's insane, but I cannot choose where to work, and I won't live far from the specialised elderly home where my elderly mother lives -her condition does not allow her to be anywhere else- because I absolutely refuse to leave her alone when all she has left in the world is me, and see her only at the weekend). My working hours are supposed to end at 4.00pm (with fifteen minutes for breakfast and forty-five minutes for lunch), but that's never true, and I'm happy if I can leave before 5.00pm or 5.30 pm. So I arrive home at 7.30pm or 8.00 pm. I should go to bed at around 9.00 pm, but I never can, since I must do all the housework, have dinner, have a shower... What normal people do in a normal evening. Plus visiting my mother for half an hour every day. What's more, there's a small part of my work I can do at home, and I do it at the weeked, so as not to spend more time there on weekdays. When my TV set broke down some years ago, I didn't even bother to replace it. What for? When would I watch it? There's absolutely nothing I can sacrifice in my life at present, except sleeping time.

So finding a one-hour gap twice a week to do some physical activity wouldn't have been easy in any case, with this crappy sort of life. Put on top of that that I don't like it. But I did it. And I did after reading on many websites that Taekwondo, even though it's a demanding sport, can be taken up and enjoyed at any age and in any physical condition, as long as you don't overexert yourself or are in too much of a hurry. And I wasn't aware I was doing any of those things. I was happy aiming my kicks at groin level when others were doing so at chest level, and when I hurt my leg it wasn't because I was trying to hit higher up than usual, but because I couldn't control well where I was kicking, and I suppose that just one inch higher may have done it.

I must have explained myself badly, because I've never had any sort of pains or aches anywhere that need to be relieved by physical exercise. I know I should do it because anyone with an IQ over 20 can understand how physical exercise is good, not because something in my body has hinted that way (of course, I know there may be some hidden issues, like for anyone else, but I'm just mentioning this in reference to someone who understood I was trying to fix some evident physical problems when I enrolled in the TKD lessons). And I haven't ruptured myself with 1-kg dumbbells yet because I've never been in a gym before. I only mentioned that as an (hyperbolic, I hope) example of what I would expect when trying it. I was feeling very disappointed because after having found a sport I liked, I was told to quit and start doing some other thing I dislike. As I said, I'd never tried it, but it sounded so similar to what we did in the school gym that it's very likely I won't like it, both because of that and because the disappointment I feel hasn't left me in the best frame of mind to approach it.

I went to the first gym session on Wednesday and, as I expected, I hated it with a passion. They gave me a list of exercises I was supposed to do in one hour, and it took two hours to do them (next week, when I don't need to be explained the machines any more, I hope it'll go down to one hour and a half). I wasn't worse at it than I was at Taekwondo, but I didn't enjoy it at all. Boring to death, and with many Herculean guys looking down on me with a sneer, though I pretended I didn't see them and did my own thing. I have one more session paid this month before I decide whether to book the month of December or not. I probably will, but unless things improve a lot, I cannot see myself doing it after Christmas.

I never came here with the intention to tell you all about my private life, as far as it wasn't directly related to the original topic of having been asked to leave the Taekwondo classes (that is, I just wanted to know whether you can't get in good shape by doing TKD little by little, as I had come to expect, or if it's really necessary to get in good shape before doing TKD, which would actually get rid of the reason to take up TWD in the first place). But I won't have anyone saying I've lived wrapped in cotton all my life and all I wanted was having my ego caressed. If not liking physical activity and being bad at it means not being macho enough, well, that's it. I couldn't care less if some people believe so. It's almost a compliment.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 27, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Here is another point for the OP...maybe he needs a training partner to encourage him. I used to run with people who were better runners than me to kick my ***. A good friend sadly move to Denmark..Well was good for him as he met a woman. He did Marathons, iron man and believe me it was hard for me training with him as I've never been a top runner..maybe above average but not in his League. However because he was Ultra keen he would turn up at my home..regardless of the weather. Running gear on let's do it !
> I miss the runs, cycling together and the comradship it gives you. So maybe after all this rambling the OP needs a Partner.


Good points about having a partner to workout with.


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## MadMartigan (Nov 27, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> I just wanted to know whether you can't get in good shape by doing TKD little by little, as I had come to expect, or if it's really necessary to get in good shape before doing TKD, which would actually get rid of the reason to take up TWD in the first place). But I won't have anyone saying I've lived wrapped in cotton all my life and all I wanted was having my ego caressed. If not liking physical activity and being bad at it means not being macho enough, well, that's it. I couldn't care less if some people believe so. It's almost a compliment.


And right here in this thread we have demonstrated the point of finding the right school for the right person. The whole thing falls apart without the right match of student to teacher.

There is room in the world for all kinds of workout and teaching mentalities. Some people need the 'suck it up' method of motivation. They won't do stuff without it... while that method has the complete opposite effect on others. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that you (and most people I know... myself included) do not respond well to the drill sergeant way. We can know that about ourselves while acknowledging that it does work for some other people.

Just as there are different students, there are different teaching styles. A student looking for the hard push will hate a school that works at a slower pace and vice versa.

Being in a small market myself, I've noticed that most small town martial arts schools have Zero online presence. You said there was only a couple in your area. In case you tried google, but haven't looked at facebook, I've run searches in my area and found several on Facebook that did not have websites at all. Something to try.

Most injuries in newer students over 40 (or returning ones after years away) happen in sparring. It just takes the body longer to adapt to the new movements. Sparring invariably pushes everyone to move faster than they're comfortable. When the body isn't ready to handle that new strain, we pull stuff.
You should have learned enough in those first couple months to be able to self practice your pattern(s). I recommend starting with the ones you know and practicing them on your own. Even 10-15 min a day will be helpful with improving your balance, body awareness, and muscle control. It's not to difficult to then add a slightly more complex pattern that works more muscle areas. You can safely learn most basic parterns from youtube or books and still receive the gross motor benefits. You can PM me if you'd like some suggestions to try.

Ps. I really hate the gym too. I've learned I'll never stick with a gym membership because its just so boring (and everything is really heavy in there. Without martial arts, I'd be a giant potato growing from my couch.


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## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Firstly, I’d like to commend you for the physical and mental effort it takes to go in and push your way through class despite not having the conditioning or coordination that your fellow students have. It’s not easy to make yourself show up and do the work when you don’t have the habit of working out and aren’t getting the immediate positive feedback of seeing rapid progress.
> 
> Secondly, I’d like to say that by asking you to quit, your TKD instructor was just showing his limitations as a teacher. Your original goal of getting in shape gradually by doing an enjoyable activity such as martial arts is completely reasonable and realistic.
> 
> ...





PeterMichaelF said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.
> 
> ...


You have given us a lot to unpack here. 
Mr. Tony Dismuke's post is very spot on. I would like to add a few different ideas to mull over.

First and foremost, taking it as it was stated, it is frustrating and sad to hear someone say their MA instructor said they should quit training. I say this cautionary since I am only hearing one side of the conversation, and from someone who is convinced they are a physical failure and who is sounding very down on themselves. That sets a pretty loud precedence. I will do my best to navigate your writing as fair and unbiased as I can. 
I am a year older than you and have my share of limitations now as well. I have been training 37 years and have seen a lot.   
It would seem you wrote your post during an emotional low. This makes it difficult to tell if the essence of your post is your normal presence or if you were just expressing your current emotions. The latter speculation, which I would say is normal for most people, would lead me to the same conclusion at Tony's. The former leads me to different conclusions. 
Based on your writing, you have already decided you were going to fail before you ever started training TKD. Even within the things you liked doing (Rugby)in your past you established yourself as an outsider. This makes it hard to weigh where you really are based on a writing. Negativity is contagious and one of the worst things that can happen to a class, team, organization, or person. I have no way of knowing how much or how little counsel the instructor had already given you about this. Many martial artist's are convinced this is not a requisite for an instructor in the first place. That certain things left up to the student to figure out on their own, in their own time. I will tell you I do not subscribe to this line of thinking and leave it at that. While Much of how traditional martial arts work requires time and considerable effort on the student, it is the instructor's job to lead and guide. This is different for almost every person. However, one of the most difficult things instructor's have to deal with is not unbalancing this equation for the whole class. What I am saying is too much or too little time spent with one person or one subject will unbalance the ideal class environment. 
I say this a lot but the coolest thing about the martial arts is that is it an individual activity a person does with a group. That is rather unique. Take this unique opportunity and craft it into your own thing.
Based on the limited information we have, my advice to you is to reset. Stop the self- incrimination and see the beginning of training at just that and nothing else. Don't worry about a pre-conceived baseline; about feeling like you are starting out in a hole. By in large, those precepts have long since passed. For anyone our age (no exceptions) just showing up for class is a victory. This is where you start in the physical. 
Before you set foot in a gym or school you have to start with self-acceptance. I have no idea what has driven you to the pre-conceived ideas is seems you have, nor whether they are accurate or not. I just know they do not matter and have no relevance in training a martial art. Take each class as a gift and an opportunity. A chance to have some fun and explore yourself in new ways each time. This is a gift that is truly priceless. 
Here is the catch. This has nothing to do with comparison or measurement. Nothing to do with how high you can kick or how much weight you can pick up. Nothing to do with what the person next to you is doing. Time is an ally and a luxury. Use it as such. 
Starting at the bottom, make a plan. If will not be perfect and it will change but have a plan.
I suggest surveying your area and making a list of the available schools. Considering dependencies like friends who work out there. ***Weigh the positive OR negative of this. 
Anyone who has worked out for some time or at several locations have seen or had grift with an instructor. It happens. Sometimes it is for the better no matter how hard it is to see in the moment, so assess this carefully. That said, since you are in the infancy of your training audit multiple schools. See which one(s) resonates with you. ***You will have to factor out your negative preconceptions. A great saying from the Lion King movie is "put your behind in the past". Truer words cannot be said. You need a new beginning. Whether it is with the same instructor or not. At this point I would not count that out. 
I look forward to hearing how your path forward plays out. Hope to hear from you soon.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 28, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> I had my first Taekwondo lesson in September, when I was 56. I'm 57 now.


At the age of 56, TKD may not be the most suitable style for you.


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## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> At the age of 56, TKD may not be the most suitable style for you.


There is a place in TKD for people of any age. It just may not be in competitions. 
If the instructor is expecting a 56 year old to move like a 26 year that is an instructor issue, not a style issue.


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## Frank Castle (Nov 28, 2021)

Look man, I'm not a touchy feely guy so this may sting a little. You've got to do a better job at doing your homework before you join a certain style. If you're 57 and in that poor a shape, you need to work on your conditioning and stretching before you get into a style like teakwondo. That's reality. That instructor was doing you a favor and not wasting anymore of your time or money. Go get a personal trainer, and DO YOUR HOMEWORK on them, certain trainers work towards certain results. Once you hit a realistic goal you've set for yourself, then start looking at a less dynamic martial art. At 57, you don't need high flashy kicks. a solid front or side kick will do just fine.  Okinawan styles are great but I'll admit I'm biased there. Certain Kung Fu styles will work for you as well. Boxing is an AMAZING work out and really develops hand/eye coordination. Yes, anyone of any age can do martial arts, but you gotta be smart about it. Otherwise you're going to hurt yourself, waste your money, and turn away from any activity that means more than getting off the couch. Best of luck to you dude, you have the motivation, you just need to work on your confidence and tune your physical abilities.


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 28, 2021)

I agree with the others. I think the instructor has the problem, not you.

I’m 66, female, and I didn’t start martial arts until my 40s. I ran into more than one instructor who said, “Women can’t learn to punch.” My attitude was, and is, if YOU can’t teach a woman to punch, I’ll find an instructor who can. If your teacher can’t teach someone like you, that’s HIS failure.

I’ve trained in karate, choy lay fut kung fu, capoeira, and tai chi. I’ve NEVER encountered an instructor who made a student *prove himself* before even *letting him* buy a uniform. How ludicrous. How alienating. Many dojos *give* you the uniform as part of the introductory tuition. I mean, if nothing else, it’s part of the culture of the dojo.

Secondly, there are other options besides TKD or the gym. If martial arts speaks to you,  look around. Firstly TKD is a *sport*, and there is usually emphasis on competition, lots of trophies in the window. A lot of martial *arts* don’t emphasize competition. Many don’t emphasize high kicks or overextension. Others concentrate on locks and holds, or floor work, not striking. In others, you’d never find yourself on the ground.

See if you can find a school that teaches tai chi *as a martial art* (not just tai chi for exercise.) You never over-extend your body in tai chi, and there’s an emphasis in the internal as well as the external. And don’t think tai chi isn’t physically and mentally challenging—it most certainly is. I’ve been doing it for more than a decade.

And here’s something you probably know, but you may not want to hear. If you’re looking to improve your “fitness,” you need to address more than exercise. You need to take a hard look at your nutrition, your mental/emotional, and social health. 

I really hope you don’t quit. I hope you explore your options. Good luck.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 28, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I say this a lot but the coolest thing about the martial arts is that is it an individual activity a person does with a group.


I often tell people that martial arts is one of the most selfish things one can do.  I don't mean it in a bad way.  But it's the only activity that I know where it's fun to be in a group, but the goal is to focus entirely on yourself.  Nothing else matters, no one else matters.  The world just melts away.

For me it's the only time I can actually drop all of my worries and just be self absorbed. Success and failure doesn't exist. There is only the effort and I guess the peace of simplicity.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I often tell people that martial arts is one of the most selfish things one can do.


I truly don't think MA is for everybody. A friend of mine told his wife that MA is his 1st wife and she is only his 2nd wife. How many people will treat MA training as the highest priority in their life?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 29, 2021)

Frank Castle said:


> Look man, I'm not a touchy feely guy so this may sting a little. You've got to do a better job at doing your homework before you join a certain style. If you're 57 and in that poor a shape, you need to work on your conditioning and stretching before you get into a style like teakwondo. That's reality.


No, that's silly. You don't get in shape so you can start to train. You get in shape BECAUSE you started training.


Phoenix44 said:


> Secondly, there are other options besides TKD or the gym. If martial arts speaks to you,  look around.


So true. There are lots of options.


Phoenix44 said:


> Firstly TKD is a *sport*,


Spoken like one who knows nothing about TKD. TKD is a martial art.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't think MA is for everybody. A friend of mine told his wife that MA is his 1st wife and she is only his 2nd wife. How many people will treat MA training as the highest priority in their life?


Not many.  I agree with you that MA isn't for everyone.  I just think most don't like it because of an inaccurate perception of it.  Humans are social animals so how one's social influence thinks of MA will have an effect. 
For example, At what point did these people think that this would be fun?





People are strange


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't think MA is for everybody. A friend of mine told his wife that MA is his 1st wife and she is only his 2nd wife. How many people will treat MA training as the highest priority in their life?


Hopefully not many.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't think MA is for everybody. A friend of mine told his wife that MA is his 1st wife and she is only his 2nd wife. How many people will treat MA training as the highest priority in their life?


Your friend's a moron. As someone who is watching his wife battle cancer right now and would give ANYTHING to make her better thats literally the stupidest thing I have read all week and thats saying something since im on several political pages as well and people say pretty crazy stuff there but thoa takes the cake for today.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 29, 2021)

ballen0351 said:


> Your friend's a moron. As someone who is watching his wife battle cancer right now and would give ANYTHING to make her better thats literally the stupidest thing I have read all week and thats saying something since im on several political pages as well and people say pretty crazy stuff there but thoa takes the cake for today.


I like to remind people that martial arts are tools to help people. People are not vehicles to serve martial arts.

There are people who put their passion (be it art, business, sports, or martial arts) ahead of their family. I’m inclined to think that those people shouldn’t get married. Your spouse deserves better.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2021)

Frank Castle said:


> Look man, I'm not a touchy feely guy so this may sting a little. You've got to do a better job at doing your homework before you join a certain style. If you're 57 and in that poor a shape, you need to work on your conditioning and stretching before you get into a style like teakwondo. That's reality. That instructor was doing you a favor and not wasting anymore of your time or money. Go get a personal trainer, and DO YOUR HOMEWORK on them, certain trainers work towards certain results. Once you hit a realistic goal you've set for yourself, then start looking at a less dynamic martial art. At 57, you don't need high flashy kicks. a solid front or side kick will do just fine.  Okinawan styles are great but I'll admit I'm biased there. Certain Kung Fu styles will work for you as well. Boxing is an AMAZING work out and really develops hand/eye coordination. Yes, anyone of any age can do martial arts, but you gotta be smart about it. Otherwise you're going to hurt yourself, waste your money, and turn away from any activity that means more than getting off the couch. Best of luck to you dude, you have the motivation, you just need to work on your confidence and tune your physical abilities.


I disagree.  A good instructor will help with that conditioning and flexibility, and should have better information (in that context) than most potential students. Is it easier for me to teach someone who comes in fit? Sure. But I don't need it to be easier for me.

As for looking for another art, from what I hear from folks in TKD, it's very possible for TKD training to be suitable to someone in the OP's situation. If (and that's a big if) the instructor in question knows how to adapt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I like to remind people that martial arts are tools to help people. People are not vehicles to serve martial arts.
> 
> There are people who put their passion (be it art, business, sports, or martial arts) ahead of their family. I’m inclined to think that those people shouldn’t get married. Your spouse deserves better.


Agreed. I've often wondered if two such people would even like each other, because they're the only ones really suited for that relationship. If both of you put the relationship in second place, then at least everyone is on the same page.


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## dvcochran (Nov 29, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> I agree with the others. I think the instructor has the problem, not you.
> 
> I’m 66, female, and I didn’t start martial arts until my 40s. I ran into more than one instructor who said, “Women can’t learn to punch.” My attitude was, and is, if YOU can’t teach a woman to punch, I’ll find an instructor who can. If your teacher can’t teach someone like you, that’s HIS failure.
> 
> ...


I commend you for still working out a 66 years young. It appears you have dabbled in several different styles. I am wondering why you state TKD is a sport when it is not one of the styles you have experience in? TV based confirmation bias is my assumption but wondered what you base your comment on. 
While the battle seems to have diminished somewhat it is an ongoing effort to educate people that there is much more to TKD than what you see in the Olympics or local tournaments. 

FWIW, My GM came to Nashville, TN from Korea in 1974. He was Very traditional and women working out was something he had to adjust to. His first female black belt was a bad-***, butch woman we called Ms. Wiz. She took (and gave) a Lot of crap that would seem out of bounds these days. It goes without saying there were not nearly as many kids and not too many women training back then. Anyone who lined up was treated the same. No padded targets or sparring gear. But it never slowed her down and you had better bring your A-game when working out or sparring her. She had a good run to the 1986 Olympics making it to the regionals.  
We also have a married couple who now live in CA who went very far in competition. Ms. Thackrey is still competing at 70 years old. 

We also have a very long list of AAU kids and adults who have been in the circuit. If you ask any of these people, they would scoff at the idea that TKD is a sport. 
Competition is an available component of TKD (and many other styles) that is attractive to some folks. It is not a required part of a curriculum. (Sadly, I have heard competing is a testing requirement at some schools from various styles.) For me, that is lazy and pretty jacked up curriculum.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 29, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> The short answer is: almost anything but physical activity. You know, some people don't like maths, or chemistry, or history, and it's very easy for them not to have any contact with any of those things after they are 16. Or if you don't like ironing your clothes, you can pay someone else to do it for you. But when the only subject you don't like, or rather, you _hate_, is PE, you can either choose to forget completely about it, which most people in that situation would do, or at least try and have a go at doing something because even if it's the last thing on earth that you'd do, short of having a tooth pulled out, you know it's good for you. Which is what I was trying to do.
> 
> For the last fifteen years of my life I've had a job that takes up most of my time, and I when I started -at an age when just having the possibility to find a job is so important that it being awful doesn't matter at all- I was forced to quit all  the activities I was doing back then (which included playing electric bass in a band, cross-stitching, attending chess lessons, being in a photography club, and studying for my third university degree in art history after having finished others in electrical engineering and English literature). So, well, what the hell do I like? As I said, almost anything but physical activity.
> 
> ...


Trying not to stray away from the OP, I will just say the bigger answers to your query have nothing to do with MA's class or gym. 
You have a busy lifestyle. Who doesn't? It is something that is hard to look at as a gift when you are in the middle of it all but it surely is better than the alternative. I have started my days at 4:00am for so long I would not know how to change that even if I could. If I understood your post, you have three degrees, one in engineering? May I ask what kind of work do you do? I only to ask to better understand you time allocation choices. 
Taking my engineering background into consideration I totally get having a binary mindset. But that is not how life works. A person simply cannot ignore that a LOT of life is in the shades of grey. The best of life in many cases. It seems you have put everything in black and white categories whether that is correct or not. That is a ton of data you are excluding for consideration.   
Good on you for staying close to you mother. It is a treasure that will not be around forever so cherish these times, hard as they are. 

Time management is your ally. It sounds like you are overwhelmed by your schedule and need to make changes. This does not explicitly mean changing what you are doing. It may only mean changing How you are doing them. Hearing what you say and how you say it, a workout is low on the list. However, if your work/lifestyle is sedentary, exercise does need to be on the list. 
You are a 'glass half empty' person right now. That is neither pleasant for you or the people around you. Everything I have read in your post leads me to believe you have a Ton of gifts and a quality life. Don't forget to appreciate the things you have. Get outside your routine and comfort zone and do some things for less fortunate people. It is definitely that time of year. Go serve at a rescue mission or social services because you seriously need a change of perspective.


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## bill miller (Nov 29, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> See if you can find a school that teaches tai chi *as a martial art* (not just tai chi for exercise.) You never over-extend your body in tai chi, and there’s an emphasis in the internal as well as the external. And don’t think tai chi isn’t physically and mentally challenging—it most certainly is. I’ve been doing it for more than a decade.


I totally agree with this statement. Anyone who has trained for a good period of time in some of the external systems should be able to see the martial applications in the tai chi form sets. I was blessed with a tai chi instructor who held to the belief that in order to get the health benefits, you have to have an understanding of the martial side as well.


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## bill miller (Nov 29, 2021)

ballen0351 said:


> Your friend's a moron. As someone who is watching his wife battle cancer right now and would give ANYTHING to make her better thats literally the stupidest thing I have read all week and thats saying something since im on several political pages as well and people say pretty crazy stuff there but thoa takes the cake for today.


Ballen, you are so right on the mark, sir. I watched my wife battle cancer for almost six years, and would give anything to have had more time.


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 29, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I commend you for still working out a 66 years young. It appears you have dabbled in several different styles. I am wondering why you state TKD is a sport when it is not one of the styles you have experience in? TV based confirmation bias is my assumption but wondered what you base your comment on.
> While the battle seems to have diminished somewhat it is an ongoing effort to educate people that there is much more to TKD than what you see in the Olympics or local tournaments.
> 
> FWIW, My GM came to Nashville, TN from Korea in 1974. He was Very traditional and women working out was something he had to adjust to. His first female black belt was a bad-***, butch woman we called Ms. Wiz. She took (and gave) a Lot of crap that would seem out of bounds these days. It goes without saying there were not nearly as many kids and not too many women training back then. Anyone who lined up was treated the same. No padded targets or sparring gear. But it never slowed her down and you had better bring your A-game when working out or sparring her. She had a good run to the 1986 Olympics making it to the regionals.
> ...


Thank you for your explanation. My view comes from the fact that in more than 25 years of training and teaching, I’ve never encountered a TKD dojang here on Long Island, where there’s a martial arts studio in every strip mall, that DOESN’T compete in tournaments. But I’ll be happy to re-explore. BTW, the strip mall comment is to emphasize numbers, not quality. Strip malls are where the real estate is around here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> Thank you for your explanation. My view comes from the fact that in more than 25 years of training and teaching, I’ve never encountered a TKD dojang here on Long Island, where there’s a martial arts studio in every strip mall, that DOESN’T compete in tournaments. But I’ll be happy to re-explore. BTW, the strip mall comment is to emphasize numbers, not quality. Strip malls are where the real estate is around here.


Just because folks in a dojo compete, that doesn't mean the dojo is only practicing the sport aspect. A BB I taught with for a while (taught classes in a different art at her dojo) used to compete, but they never trained for competition. She just took what they did in class, and took it to the sport.


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## NikiMandra (Nov 29, 2021)

Hello, I know this suggestion might not be popular with everyone but since your options are limited have you considered looking into online classes/courses? I`m not talking about learning alone from videos but there are hybrid courses out there where you have a mix between videos/live online classes and the possibility to have your videos regularly assessed by an instructor for tips and adjustments. I don`t know about TKD, you`ll have to do that research for yourself, but a few examples (the ones I`m subscribed to) that you can check out for reference are kungfu.life and 6 Dragons Kung Fu. This approach will not teach you to fight, since you need sparring for that, but it might be great for you if your priority right now is to get in shape at your own pace doing something you enjoy.  It will also save you a considerable amount of money compared to in person classes. Hope you find a way to get through this. ✌️


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 29, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> My view comes from the fact that in more than 25 years of training and teaching, I’ve never encountered a TKD dojang here on Long Island, where there’s a martial arts studio in every strip mall, that DOESN’T compete in tournaments.





Gerry Seymour said:


> Just because folks in a dojo compete, that doesn't mean the dojo is only practicing the sport aspect.


At the risk of offending TKD people (which is not my intention - sticking to the facts as I know them) I respectfully disagree with the second quote.

Most TKD, like most Shotokan schools from which they descended, are _inherently_ sports oriented.

Shotokan was, from the early 1930's, _designed_ to be a sport.  The Japanese government actively worked to make it so with the long term goal to get their karate onto the international scene, including the Olympics.  (The old FAJKO, Federation of All Japan Karate, and eventual heir, the JKF, with current relationship with the WKF, worked along these lines.) This was what was exported to Korea and spawned TKD.  (Okinawan karate was mostly excluded from this effort - a story in itself!)

It's true that individual TDK instructors may stress other areas than competition, and most TMA's are capable of being used as self-defense and self-development, to varying degrees.  But the built in focus of the base style is sport as mentioned above.  So the experience related in the first quote should not be surprising, though I'm sure there are a few exceptions.

Karate has evolved in divergent directions: _ jutsu_ (combat), _do _(personal development), and sport (exercise and competitive).  Combat and sport can overlap in function and both contribute to _do_, but also at times, be different. This is fine as people have different goals in practicing MA, but should be aware of just what their focus is and find a school that best provides that.


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## dvcochran (Nov 29, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> At the risk of offending TKD people (which is not my intention - sticking to the facts as I know them) I respectfully disagree with the second quote.
> 
> Most TKD, like most Shotokan schools from which they descended, are _inherently_ sports oriented.
> 
> ...


This last part lost me on what the point is you are trying to make. 
Seems to me we are all saying the same thing based on that last part. 

All styles compete. Some more than others. The bigger concern for me are schools/styles that do not pressure test. Sadly, I would aver that there is some of this in every style as well. 
So picking a style(s) to bash (for whatever reason) is pretty shallow. 
The ‘my style is better than yours’ is, well just sad.


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## dvcochran (Nov 29, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> Thank you for your explanation. My view comes from the fact that in more than 25 years of training and teaching, I’ve never encountered a TKD dojang here on Long Island, where there’s a martial arts studio in every strip mall, that DOESN’T compete in tournaments. But I’ll be happy to re-explore. BTW, the strip mall comment is to emphasize numbers, not quality. Strip malls are where the real estate is around here.


Okay, so your experience is from walking past all these schools just when they happen to be competing? 
Or possibly you saw them at tournaments you just happened to be competing at as well? So who is the fool here?
Why is competing a bad thing to you? 
Do you not get that it is akin to competition in any other sport?

Your point totally escapes me.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 29, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This last part lost me on what the point is you are trying to make.
> Seems to me we are all saying the same thing based on that last part.
> 
> All styles compete. Some more than others. The bigger concern for me are schools/styles that do not pressure test. Sadly, I would aver that there is some of this in every style as well.
> ...


I was not bashing or endorsing any style.  Merely saying that even if individual schools/instructors of the mentioned styles of shotokan, and by extension,TKD don't push competition, the _styles_ themselves are historically structured to facilitate sport competition.  This is not meant to be derogatory, just putting some interesting subtext into the subject.

As you may know, open tournaments have their own "style." Watching a match, it's hard to tell whether the fighter is shotokan, goju, EP kenpo or lama lima, because they all want to score points per the rules, so all must conform to that template.  They are not fighting using their traditional style's doctrine, but adopt "tournament fighting style." This is why, at least in the past, champions came from a variety of traditional styles.  Success did not necessarily come from skill in their individual style, but from their skill in "tournament" point scoring style.

To illustrate, there were fearsome fighters and karate masters in 1935 Okinawa.  None of them would win any modern tournament sparring, or forms, competition - their style was/is not point scoring friendly.  However, _Japanese shotokan practitioners of that time would have a much better chance in a modern tournament_ as karate was more "sportified" in Japan than Okinawa. This sort of sums up the point I was trying to make.

I think I am just being factual here, talking about the fascinating modern history of karate and some of the factors that have guided it into its current state.  It's a topic that can have academic discussion.  My post, including the last part you mentioned, was recognizing the reality of the art as it exists today, being a product of the past. 

I certainly agree that pressure testing, at least as one approaches black belt and beyond, is a must.


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## dvcochran (Nov 29, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I was not bashing or endorsing any style.  Merely saying that even if individual schools/instructors of the mentioned styles of shotokan, and by extension,TKD don't push competition, the _styles_ themselves are historically structured to facilitate sport competition.  This is not meant to be derogatory, just putting some interesting subtext into the subject.
> 
> As you may know, open tournaments have their own "style." Watching a match, it's hard to tell whether the fighter is shotokan, goju, EP kenpo or lama lima, because they all want to score points per the rules, so all must conform to that template.  They are not fighting using their traditional style's doctrine, but adopt "tournament fighting style." This is why, at least in the past, champions came from a variety of traditional styles.  Success did not necessarily come from skill in their individual style, but from their skill in "tournament" point scoring style.
> 
> ...


Shotokan, TSD and ITF TKD have similarities. Several styles use the Pinan (Heian) forms so I would call them moot for the discussion. To say Shotokan and WT TKD have similarities would be a stretch to say the least. The same is true for an open tournament compared to a WT, Kung Fu, or Kali tournament. Just completely different animals. Sure, there are always good kickers or strikers where it is hard to tell from where they originate, but by in large it is easy to pick certain styles out of the crowd. 

Arguably, most of the influence on Korea was Okinawan but that is a different discussion. 

My first ever tournament was a Shotokan tournament. While it was a point-based tournament for scoring there was very little in the way of contact control. Truly a slobber knocker. About as 'open' as a tournament could get. The PKA matches I used to compete in were more controlled. 

Everything is a product of the past in some ways. Definitely, in modern history there was quite a divergence in style between Japanese and Korean. A big part of the 'Korean Plan'.

We all like to regale our history and looking back things seem to appear 'bigger' to everyone. Mine would be the amount of contact in WT tournaments of the '80's and 90's. WT of today bears little resemblance

Great debate.


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## Tman (Nov 30, 2021)

First off take care of your injury.

I believe that studying any martial art is a personal journey.   You should not compare yourself to anyone in the class,  everyone is at a different point in the journey.   Ask yourself are you improving overtime.   Are my kicks higher today then they were when I started, even if only a little.  

I personally hate working out on my own, but really enjoy the class atmosphere, it adds a social aspect to working out.   In addition to martial arts class I have enjoyed attending fitness classes.   Most of the folks in class are much younger then me and are capable doing things and lifting weights I am not, and I don't care.   I just watch myself and look for the incremental improvements, today I lifted 5 lbs more than I could a 2 months ago or my kick is now waist level.

I think it is important to find a school, gym or  instructor that is interested in helping you achieve your goals.   A good instructor will understand this and act as an escort on your journey.

Please don't give up and work to being the best you.   Good luck to you.


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## kfman (Nov 30, 2021)

PeterMichaelF said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.
> 
> ...


I've practiced and teach the Five Family Style kung fu for 42 years. GM Ark Y Wong was quoted as saying that kicks are waist high and hands are waist low, with a few exceptions. I'm 70 and can still do most movements in my forms. So I suggest trying a kung fu style that's not wushu with flying fancy kicks. Tai Chi would be excellent as well, especially if the instructor teaches it martially. And to lose weight, try not eating after 7 pm and only drink water.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 30, 2021)

kfman said:


> And to lose weight, try not eating after 7 pm and only drink water.


Losing weight depends on a lot. Generic advice like this assumes there's one answer that works for every type of fat, every metabolism, and every lifestyle.


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## Sammy19 (Dec 13, 2021)

I have only been in TKD for 15 months....  My instructors are very encouraging, know how hard it is, modify items to help me get better, But do not just give any one anything, they are demanding, but understanding.  I have been discourage many, many times but they encourage me and I am glad for it....  My thoughts are 1.  You might need to just accept where you are and take satisfaction in small gains (which is hard) 2. if your instructors are not encouraging and helpful, find a new place.  

But don't give up....  Hang in there!


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## drop bear (Dec 14, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Losing weight depends on a lot. Generic advice like this assumes there's one answer that works for every type of fat, every metabolism, and every lifestyle.



There kind of is. But it isn't that.


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## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> Thank you for your explanation. My view comes from the fact that in more than 25 years of training and teaching, I’ve never encountered a TKD dojang here on Long Island, where there’s a martial arts studio in every strip mall, that DOESN’T compete in tournaments. But I’ll be happy to re-explore. BTW, the strip mall comment is to emphasize numbers, not quality. Strip malls are where the real estate is around here.


Same here. We own two of them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 14, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There kind of is. But it isn't that.


There kind of isn’t. Different kinds of fat respond to different approaches - as do different metabolisms.


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## Hanzou (Dec 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't think MA is for everybody. A friend of mine told his wife that MA is his 1st wife and she is only his 2nd wife. How many people will treat MA training as the highest priority in their life?



Not to pile on here, but as much as I love martial arts, my wife is numero uno. The only thing that rivals her importance in my life are my kids.

Your friend needs to get their priorities in order.


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## Frank Castle (Jan 25, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I disagree.  A good instructor will help with that conditioning and flexibility, and should have better information (in that context) than most potential students. Is it easier for me to teach someone who comes in fit? Sure. But I don't need it to be easier for me.
> 
> As for looking for another art, from what I hear from folks in TKD, it's very possible for TKD training to be suitable to someone in the OP's situation. If (and that's a big if) the instructor in question knows how to adapt.



You're right in that a good instructor will help, but at the same time he likely isn't the only student. If class time is an hour and there are approx 10-15 other students (Granted, I'm spit balling this student to teacher ratio), an instructor isn't going to want to spend a quarter of the class time on an individual student's conditioning and flexibility for too many classes. From a business stand point alone, that would be insane and an magnificent way to lose students who equally want attention to make sure they're doing the techniques correctly. If he can afford a private instructor then that's a completely different issue but the reality is these days martial arts is just as much a business as it is a sport or an art. I hate saying that but it is what it is. Schools that spend too much time on a single student vs the rest of the class tend not to be in business too long. People want to learn, they also want to feel like they're getting their money's worth.

As for TKD for older students, sure. Anything is possible. But why learn a style that is notorious for high, flashy, power kicks when there are more suitable styles to match age, body styles, and conditioning. If it's an ego thing and he just HAS to learn a flying spinning kick, whatever man...you do you. If it's to learn a suitable self defense, there are other styles that are just as effective with less personal risk. A perfect example is my first sensei. He was an older guy but had black belts in several styles, to include TKD. Ultimately he chose to continue studying and, eventually teaching, Shorin Ryu because it was more suitable to his physical limitations.  At the time I was an obnoxious teenager, who could do the crazy kicks, and didn't understand. I do now.


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## auntlisa1103 (Jan 25, 2022)

I guess I don’t get why training in TKD mandates the ability to execute a flying spinning kick….or whatever. It’s about finding your own journey through. I didn’t even start training until I was 38. I’m blind in one eye, type 1 diabetic, two bad knees, and I was the kid who couldn’t sports. But I’m about to test to first Dan after 4.5 years of training.

I can personally guarantee you that if I get attacked on the street, I will not be attempting anything close to a flying spinning kick. In 4.5 years of training TKD I have yet to successfully put a rotating kick in the air. Stopped trying long ago. It’s not necessary. All it takes is a well placed knee strike or side kick. Heck, a palm strike is enough if placed properly. Do I push myself to try harder techniques? Of course, partly for my own training and partly so I can be used as an instructor in class. But I’m no less a martial artist just because I can’t do repetitive tornado kicks all the way down the dojang floor.

One of my masters once called me out in the interview portion of one of my brown belt tests, for skipping every other 360 side kick. I responded that rotation is always a struggle for me given my balance and vision issues. He then said he was mentioning it to praise me for it. One mark of a good martial artist, he said, is understanding your limitations and how to work both within and around them. So if I needed to skip every other 360 side to get through a drill on my feet, then I should continue to skip every other kick.

Unfortunately, some instructors are far too focused on textbook technique to find the hidden martial artists in their students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 26, 2022)

Frank Castle said:


> You're right in that a good instructor will help, but at the same time he likely isn't the only student. If class time is an hour and there are approx 10-15 other students (Granted, I'm spit balling this student to teacher ratio), an instructor isn't going to want to spend a quarter of the class time on an individual student's conditioning and flexibility for too many classes. From a business stand point alone, that would be insane and an magnificent way to lose students who equally want attention to make sure they're doing the techniques correctly. If he can afford a private instructor then that's a completely different issue but the reality is these days martial arts is just as much a business as it is a sport or an art. I hate saying that but it is what it is. Schools that spend too much time on a single student vs the rest of the class tend not to be in business too long. People want to learn, they also want to feel like they're getting their money's worth.
> 
> As for TKD for older students, sure. Anything is possible. But why learn a style that is notorious for high, flashy, power kicks when there are more suitable styles to match age, body styles, and conditioning. If it's an ego thing and he just HAS to learn a flying spinning kick, whatever man...you do you. If it's to learn a suitable self defense, there are other styles that are just as effective with less personal risk. A perfect example is my first sensei. He was an older guy but had black belts in several styles, to include TKD. Ultimately he chose to continue studying and, eventually teaching, Shorin Ryu because it was more suitable to his physical limitations.  At the time I was an obnoxious teenager, who could do the crazy kicks, and didn't understand. I do now.


I don't think it requires spending that kind of time in-class on an individual student. I've sometimes had a few minutes of discussion with students outside class time to give them some suggestions. And I sometimes spend a bit of class time talking about fitness that supports what we do (as well as fitness that supports general life, because they're going to need that whether they train with me or not). And parts of class are specifically designed to push fitness a bit, too.

A good instructor should be able to point a student in the right direction in their training. Rank is irrelevant. So, unless someone has an issue that makes working on basic kicks and punches dangerous or damaging, there's no reason they cant' study something like TKD. TKD doesn't require high, flashy kicks. How do I know? My brother took up TKD in his 40's, when his son wanted to join a dojo.


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## dvcochran (Jan 26, 2022)

Frank Castle said:


> You're right in that a good instructor will help, but at the same time he likely isn't the only student. If class time is an hour and there are approx 10-15 other students (Granted, I'm spit balling this student to teacher ratio), an instructor isn't going to want to spend a quarter of the class time on an individual student's conditioning and flexibility for too many classes. From a business stand point alone, that would be insane and an magnificent way to lose students who equally want attention to make sure they're doing the techniques correctly. If he can afford a private instructor then that's a completely different issue but the reality is these days martial arts is just as much a business as it is a sport or an art. I hate saying that but it is what it is. Schools that spend too much time on a single student vs the rest of the class tend not to be in business too long. People want to learn, they also want to feel like they're getting their money's worth.
> 
> As for TKD for older students, sure. Anything is possible. But why learn a style that is notorious for high, flashy, power kicks when there are more suitable styles to match age, body styles, and conditioning. If it's an ego thing and he just HAS to learn a flying spinning kick, whatever man...you do you. If it's to learn a suitable self defense, there are other styles that are just as effective with less personal risk. A perfect example is my first sensei. He was an older guy but had black belts in several styles, to include TKD. Ultimately he chose to continue studying and, eventually teaching, Shorin Ryu because it was more suitable to his physical limitations.  At the time I was an obnoxious teenager, who could do the crazy kicks, and didn't understand. I do now.


But this would not be the normal class dynamic. The odds are very, very good that everyone in class needs to work on the same thing(s) (granted, it may be at different degrees), so it is reasonable to expect everyone to stretch, for example. While this is going on, the instructor can devote more time to said person.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Jan 26, 2022)

PeterMichaelF said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.
> 
> ...


Taekwondo is still being taught the way it was taught a thousand years ago, which isn't good, although many people like Taekwondo.
I personally have studied Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have taught Kenpo for fifty years and still teaching. Kenpo, which allows the minimum movement for the maximum results. American Kenpo is a more modern martial art that was developed for modern times.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Taekwondo is still being taught the way it was taught a thousand years ago, which isn't good, although many people like Taekwondo.


What a crock. TKD didn't exist a thousand years ago.


AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I personally have studied Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have taught Kenpo for fifty years and still teaching. Kenpo, which allows the minimum movement for the maximum results. American Kenpo is a more modern martial art that was developed for modern times.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


You should probably mention that your "rank" wasn't awarded or earned in either Tracy or Parkers system, but is entirely self-awarded.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 26, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Taekwondo is still being taught the way it was taught a thousand years ago, which isn't good, although many people like Taekwondo.


Where did you get this from? Considering a lot of TKD comes from shotokan karate, which hasn't even been around for 100 years, and the kwans have only been unified for less than 50 years, I seriously doubt that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Where did you get this from? Considering a lot of TKD comes from shotokan karate, which hasn't even been around for 100 years, and the kwans have only been unified for less than 50 years, I seriously doubt that.


Well... the major Kwan were formed in the mid to late 1940's. So 70-80-ish years. The unification was ordered in 1961, so 60-ish years. It's not really correct to say they're actually unified even today, despite what the Kukkiwon claims.
But you're right in that the 'thousand years' claim is utter and complete nonsense.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... the major Kwan were formed in the mid to late 1940's. So 70-80-ish years. The unification was ordered in 1961, so 60-ish years. It's not really correct to say they're actually unified even today, despite what the Kukkiwon claims.
> But you're right in that the 'thousand years' claim is utter and complete nonsense.


Ah. In my head they were unified in like the mid 70s. I'll take your word on that though-you know much more about it then I do. I'm not surprised to find out that there were kwans that chose not to unify, and are (I'm guessing) therefore not considered relevant by the 'main' unified ones.

That said, that's a matter of decades, not centuries lmao


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ah. In my head they were unified in like the mid 70s. I'll take your word on that though-you know much more about it then I do. I'm not surprised to find out that there were kwans that chose not to unify, and are (I'm guessing) therefore not considered relevant by the 'main' unified ones.
> 
> That said, that's a matter of decades, not centuries lmao


In the '70's, the Kukkiwon declared that the Kwans no longer existed. Of course, the non-Kukkiwon branches disagree. There were some that joined the unification and then left (such as GM Hwang Kee or General Choi) and others who never wanted anything to do with the movement.
But certainly, the main point is that the thousand year claim is a pile of fetid dingoes kidneys.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 27, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Where did you get this from? Considering a lot of TKD comes from shotokan karate, which hasn't even been around for 100 years, and the kwans have only been unified for less than 50 years, I seriously doubt that.


There is a reasonable argument that Taekkyeon, which can date back to the 1,700's is an original component of today's traditional TKD.
But at best, it would only exist in certain movements only and because of the demographics.

Myself included, it is hard to appreciate how steeped in tradition and history Korean's are.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Taekwondo is still being taught the way it was taught a thousand years ago, which isn't good, although many people like Taekwondo.
> I personally have studied Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have taught Kenpo for fifty years and still teaching. Kenpo, which allows the minimum movement for the maximum results. American Kenpo is a more modern martial art that was developed for modern times.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


I can appreciate your enthusiasm for the martial methods that you trained for many decades.  As someone who also trained in the Tracy lineage kenpo I disagree with your assessment.  I personally found the system to be cumbersome and problematic in terms of how the curriculum is constructed and organized, to the point where I no longer train it in any way. 

That isn’t meant to take away from your feelings for it.  It is simply to illustrate that quite literally, different strokes for different folks.  Which gets to my main point:  the OP was discussing his training in TKD, not kenpo.  Over and over you have jumped into threads and repeated your 50 year history in kenpo, and suggested people ought to train kenpo instead.  This is irrelevant to the discussion.  First, kenpo is not available everywhere, for every person, so people tend to train in what is available in their area.  Second, people are interested in what they are interested in.  So if someone wants to train TKD, telling them to train in kenpo instead is kind of a turn-off and shuts down the conversation, at least in your ability to contribute to it.  

So I dunno.  Maybe there needs to be a little more thoughtfulness in what you post.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> There is a reasonable argument that Taekkyeon, which can date back to the 1,700's is an original component of today's traditional TKD.


No, there really isn't. The training the founders received is pretty well known. Shotokan. Judo. Kendo. Northern Chinese. None of the claims to mysterious Taekkyeon instruction received from a Secret Master who lived on top of a mountain have any real credibility. It's been acknowledged that those claims were made in an attempt to differentiate TKD from the arts taught by the people who conquered Korea and suppressed the native culture.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, there really isn't. The training the founders received is pretty well known. Shotokan. Judo. Kendo. Northern Chinese. None of the claims to mysterious Taekkyeon instruction received from a Secret Master who lived on top of a mountain have any real credibility. It's been acknowledged that those claims were made in an attempt to differentiate TKD from the arts taught by the people who conquered Korea and suppressed the native culture.


I fully agree with your short summation as far as the occupation(s) effects. There is no denying that Korean society was influenced by this lineage and, after the separation they wanted to individualize their art. 
This is not hard to research and connect.


----------



## Instructor (Jan 27, 2022)

OP, Tae Kwon Do is a good system but IMHO it favors lighter more agile fighters, particularly at the higher ranks, where the spinning and jump spinning techniques come in.  If you have a more substantial body type, you should shop around, some systems favor stouter types who aren't so inclined to jump around.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2022)

Instructor said:


> OP, Tae Kwon Do is a good system but IMHO it favors lighter more agile fighters, particularly at the higher ranks, where the spinning and jump spinning techniques come in.  If you have a more substantial body type, you should shop around, some systems favor stouter types who aren't so inclined to jump around.


I'm 60 years old, 6'1" and 220 pounds. 
One of my first Dans is 6'6" and 310. He played lineman at his university. 
What's that you were saying?

I think you will have a very difficult time finding a TKD school that doesn't teach the kicks and the variants at low levels. Something like a jump spinning back kick is really not difficult.






This fellow is a 1st Dan KKW. Not exactly what you'd call a higher rank.

No idea who this fellow is. But he doesn't seem to fit your profile either.






If you're talking about stuff like tornado kicks, then surely you know that those are more tricking than Martial Art. And that they're not a part of the curriculum required by any TKD organization I am familiar with.
It is a myth that TKD in any way requires students to perform those kicks. They're fun, practicing them can be good for balance and explosive power generation, and they look cool in demos. But you are rarely, of ever, going to see them used in anything serious.


----------



## Instructor (Jan 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm 60 years old, 6'1" and 220 pounds.
> One of my first Dans is 6'6" and 310. He played lineman at his university.
> What's that you were saying?
> 
> ...


Go easy Dirty Dog, I'm not saying big folks can't kick and fly with the best of them it's just some of us prefer life on Earth.  I'm roughly your size and have a 1st Dan in TKD but I don't fly like I used to.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Go easy Dirty Dog, I'm not saying big folks can't kick and fly with the best of them it's just some of us prefer life on Earth.  I'm roughly your size and have a 1st Dan in TKD but I don't fly like I used to.


Right, but the problem is your assertion that it actually matters. It doesn't.


----------



## Instructor (Jan 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Right, but the problem is your assertion that it actually matters. It doesn't.


I did not mean to assert anything it was just my opinion and it still is.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I did not mean to assert anything it was just my opinion and it still is.


OK, so can you provide examples (or even an example) of any TKD system that requires those techniques?


----------



## Instructor (Jan 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> OK, so can you provide examples (or even an example) of any TKD system that requires those techniques?


Nope


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 27, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Nope


So an opinion devoid of any real world basis. Gotcha.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Jan 28, 2022)

I think doing a more hands-based martial art would be better for you. While Taekwondo requires a certain degree of athleticism, Karate is pretty versatile in terms of the physical ability requirement. Taekwondo is a hard, structured art while Karate tends to be quite fluid, with people sort of "choosing their own path" at the black belt level.
Other arts I'd recommend are boxing, Kung Fu (Southern style, again more hands less feet), Soo Bahk Do (more gentle version of Taekwondo), Tai Chi, etc...


----------



## drop bear (Jan 28, 2022)

You are going to be better at physical activity if you are abit lighter and a bit fitter. And training will do that.

So if you are training to say be better at TKD then........


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 28, 2022)

ThatOneCanadian said:


> I think doing a more hands-based martial art would be better for you. While Taekwondo requires a certain degree of athleticism,


No it doesn't, any more than any other art.


ThatOneCanadian said:


> Karate is pretty versatile in terms of the physical ability requirement.


So is TKD.


ThatOneCanadian said:


> Taekwondo is a hard, structured art while Karate tends to be quite fluid, with people sort of "choosing their own path" at the black belt level.


Just flat out wrong. TKD practitioners do exactly the same thing. Excluding the Koryu arts, I suspect just about all arts do.


ThatOneCanadian said:


> Other arts I'd recommend are boxing, Kung Fu (Southern style, again more hands less feet), Soo Bahk Do (more gentle version of Taekwondo), Tai Chi, etc...


Your characterization of Soo Bahk Do is 100% wrong. SBD - and Tang Soo Do, from which SBK evolved - are not in any way, shape, or form versions of TKD. TSD evolved from Shotokan, with a bit of northern Chinese influence. Because that is what the founder, GM Hwang Kee, studied. SBD evolved from TSD. TKD/TSD/SBD all share some common roots in Shotokan, but they're different arts.


----------



## lklawson (Feb 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, there really isn't. The training the founders received is pretty well known. Shotokan. Judo. Kendo. Northern Chinese. None of the claims to mysterious Taekkyeon instruction received from a Secret Master who lived on top of a mountain have any real credibility. It's been acknowledged that those claims were made in an attempt to differentiate TKD from the arts taught by the people who conquered Korea and suppressed the native culture.


To be fair, maybe it's not as well known as might be assumed.  When I studied Tang Soo Do in the early 80's, the handbook specifically told me that the art was basically thousands of years old and GM Hwang Kee took the Soo Bak Do he learned as a youth and combined it with Chinese methods which he learned when he fled the Japanese to China during WWII.

Pretty much all of it was either a lie or, um... "stretching the truth."  But there it was my handbook and, being a teenager, I just took it at face value.  It wasn't until much later that I learned the truth.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Instructor (Feb 1, 2022)

lklawson said:


> To be fair, maybe it's not as well known as might be assumed.  When I studied Tang Soo Do in the early 80's, the handbook specifically told me that the art was basically thousands of years old and GM Hwang Kee took the Soo Bak Do he learned as a youth and combined it with Chinese methods which he learned when he fled the Japanese to China during WWII.
> 
> Pretty much all of it was either a lie or, um... "stretching the truth."  But there it was my handbook and, being a teenager, I just took it at face value.  It wasn't until much later that I learned the truth.
> 
> ...


A lot of stuff we were taught in the 80's was misleading. History is a dodgy subject and martial arts history is dodgier than most.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 1, 2022)

lklawson said:


> To be fair, maybe it's not as well known as might be assumed.  When I studied Tang Soo Do in the early 80's, the handbook specifically told me that the art was basically thousands of years old and GM Hwang Kee took the Soo Bak Do he learned as a youth and combined it with Chinese methods which he learned when he fled the Japanese to China during WWII.
> 
> Pretty much all of it was either a lie or, um... "stretching the truth."  But there it was my handbook and, being a teenager, I just took it at face value.  It wasn't until much later that I learned the truth.
> 
> ...


More to the point with any and all martial arts history, the claim is argumentative. Each and every style of fighting can draw some sort of line to the methods of fighting used thousands of years ago. In this respect, there is no differentiation. I have never read any definitive proof that the pictures seen carved cave walls have anything to do with modern TKD.

In my case, it was drilled into me that TKD originated when ancient serfs were taught how to kick someone off their horse and/or knock down the horse with a kick to level the field of play. This was taught by monks to overthrow the rulers and/or kings of the time. Truth or fiction? I have no idea, but I suspect it lies somewhere in the middle. Regardless, the monks had to learn from someone or for some reason.

Our schools, while deeply seated in MKD/TKD, have a cool connection to Kung Fu (through our GM's training). I do like the methodology of applying animal movements. Just by observation, a person could have learned techniques to catch the day's food.

Makes sense to me but really depends on how far back you want to go.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 1, 2022)

lklawson said:


> To be fair, maybe it's not as well known as might be assumed.  When I studied Tang Soo Do in the early 80's, the handbook specifically told me that the art was basically thousands of years old and GM Hwang Kee took the Soo Bak Do he learned as a youth and combined it with Chinese methods which he learned when he fled the Japanese to China during WWII.
> 
> Pretty much all of it was either a lie or, um... "stretching the truth."  But there it was my handbook and, being a teenager, I just took it at face value.  It wasn't until much later that I learned the truth.
> 
> ...


I remember a similar tale about my first art in the late 90s. Without going into specifics, the art was an amalgamation kempo style, meaning  it was actually formed in the mid 1960s. The tale I heard though, along with what the handbook explicitly states, is that the art goes back a thousand years and I think even had that "mystical travelling hermit/warrior" piece to it.


----------



## lklawson (Feb 1, 2022)

Yup, all true.  I guess my point was that, unless you have some reason to doubt the "official" history, you might never be exposed to the fact that TKD/TSD/etc. are heavily Shotokan derivatives.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I remember a similar tale about my first art in the late 90s. Without going into specifics, the art was an amalgamation kempo style, meaning  it was actually formed in the mid 1960s. The tale I heard though, along with what the handbook explicitly states, is that the art goes back a thousand years and I think even had that "mystical travelling hermit/warrior" piece to it.


I guess it depends on how you choose to interpret these things.  To be fair, they do go back a long time.  Just how long is often hard to nail down, but they were all built on something that came before, and so on back into time.  So their roots are quite old.  But the art as it is practiced today, not so old.  Perspective and context are important.  

Often there is an attempt to link the origin with someone or something famous or of an implied power or strength.  In the Chinese arts it is often a famous general or a mysterious monk.  But these claims are difficult, if not impossible, to support in most cases.  So that is what is misleading.  Trying to claim that specific link to the past, or that these things have been handed down unchanged and in an unbroken lineage from ancient times, cannot be supported.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2022)

lklawson said:


> To be fair, maybe it's not as well known as might be assumed.  When I studied Tang Soo Do in the early 80's, the handbook specifically told me that the art was basically thousands of years old and GM Hwang Kee took the Soo Bak Do he learned as a youth and combined it with Chinese methods which he learned when he fled the Japanese to China during WWII.
> 
> Pretty much all of it was either a lie or, um... "stretching the truth."  But there it was my handbook and, being a teenager, I just took it at face value.  It wasn't until much later that I learned the truth.
> 
> ...


Sure, 30-40 years ago the silly claims were being made. But by now, I think it unlikely that anyone associated with these arts still believes it.


----------



## lklawson (Feb 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, 30-40 years ago the silly claims were being made. But by now, I think it unlikely that anyone associated with these arts still believes it.


Well...


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, 30-40 years ago the silly claims were being made. But by now, I think it unlikely that anyone associated with these arts still believes it.


You would think so, given that accurate information is much easier to find these days. Unfortunately (as we've seen for all sorts of non-martial arts info) _mis_information is also easier to disseminate as well. This was the first result I found when I did a search for taekwondo history.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 2, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You would think so, given that accurate information is much easier to find these days. Unfortunately (as we've seen for all sorts of non-martial arts info) _mis_information is also easier to disseminate as well. This was the first result I found when I did a search for taekwondo history.


I got curious and checked additional search results. For the first two pages of results, 90% cited the thousands of years old story. One of the few exceptions stated that TKD was created by General Choi. On the 3rd page I started to find a higher percentage of accurate accounts, but still got plenty of the myths as well.


----------



## wolfeyes2323 (Feb 2, 2022)

PeterMichaelF said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.
> 
> ...


IMO  the problem is not the art it is the teacher/school   , most MA like Karate , TKD  are taught as if the beginning student is young and if not in good shape , capable of being molded into shape.   Look back in the History of Karate and TKD ,  The Japanese introduced karate into the school systems (including University) , to prepare them for Military service,  it was not so much the art that they wanted but the discipline and physical preparation,   TKD is Korean Karate so is mostly taught the same way.    You need to find a teacher that can work with you in a appropriate manner,  understanding , the ageing process, and the need to work with students where they are at in life.  You can not physically compete with those half your age,  you can not train the same way and expect the same results,  You can not train like a military recruit and expect that you will not burn out.


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, 30-40 years ago the silly claims were being made. But by now, I think it unlikely that anyone associated with these arts still believes it.


We have people who believe that the vaccine is changing their DNA.  Was reading the weird thread about JKD in Sacramento and did a quick google search for JKD in Sacramento.  One of the guys who teaches it had filled his JKD page up with conspiracy stuff.  I took a screen shot of this from that guy's JKD page, because I thought it was so crazy.  

Point is, people believe all kinds of crazy.  We have dudes on this site who I'm sure still think the pandemic was a politically driven hoax.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> We have people who believe that the vaccine is changing their DNA.  Was reading the weird thread about JKD in Sacramento and did a quick google search for JKD in Sacramento.  One of the guys who teaches it had filled his JKD page up with conspiracy stuff.  I took a screen shot of this from that guy's JKD page, because I thought it was so crazy.
> 
> Point is, people believe all kinds of crazy.  We have dudes on this site who I'm sure still think the pandemic was a politically driven hoax.
> 
> ...


Oh Wow. That’s really disturbing conspiracy stuff. People will believe anything.


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh Wow. That’s really disturbing conspiracy stuff. People will believe anything.


Yeah, way I look at it is, if people believe this sort of nonsense, is it any wonder they get twisted up around martial arts origin stories?  I mean, we have guys on this forum who think the pandemic is a political hoax.  It's nuts out there.  So, if someone thinks a blind monk invented his martial arts style 3000 years ago by watching a beaver build a dam, whatever.  If he thinks his style is borne from the unholy union of a demon and a mortal, neat.  These seem pretty harmless in the scheme of things.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yeah, way I look at it is, if people believe this sort of nonsense, is it any wonder they get twisted up around martial arts origin stories?  I mean, we have guys on this forum who think the pandemic is a political hoax.  It's nuts out there.  So, if someone thinks a blind monk invented his martial arts style 3000 years ago by watching a beaver build a dam, whatever.  If he thinks his style is borne from the unholy union of a demon and a mortal, neat.  These seem pretty harmless in the scheme of things.


Sure I love a good fairy tale. I still have my E.Gary Gygax stuff.


----------



## lklawson (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I mean, we have guys on this forum who think the pandemic is a political hoax


Can we avoid crapping up this thread with a COVID hoax/real, masks mandate, Vaccination vs. "Unvaxed" run?


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sure I love a good fairy tale. I still have my E.Gary Gygax stuff.


Me too.  OG nerd right here, my man.


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Can we avoid crapping up this thread with a COVID hoax/real, masks mandate, Vaccination vs. "Unvaxed" run?


Well, that's up to you.  It's a current example of how folks believe weird stuff, even if it is obviously ridiculous to others.  Are there any other examples that we should avoid to protect your delicate sensibilities?  How do you feel about aliens?


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sure I love a good fairy tale. I still have my E.Gary Gygax stuff.



I still have all of my stuff too.  In fact, I still play every week.  Tonight is Game Night!


----------



## Steve (Feb 2, 2022)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I still have all of my stuff too.  In fact, I still play every week.  Tonight is Game Night!


I've still got a ton of that old stuff, too.  Not worth much, I don't think, but very sentimentally valuable.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I still have all of my stuff too.  In fact, I still play every week.  Tonight is Game Night!


Lucky!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I've still got a ton of that old stuff, too.  Not worth much, I don't think, but very sentimentally valuable.


Worth a lot to me, which is why I still have it 40 years later.  Over 3000 hand painted figs.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I've still got a ton of that old stuff, too.  Not worth much, I don't think, but very sentimentally valuable.


COVID shut our 25 year running weekly game. A bunch of 50 year olds still yelling about rules over the table.  We are ridiculous to listen to.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> Me too.  OG nerd right here, my man.


It was the demon mortal unholy union talk that got onto this. Sorry.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> COVID shut our 25 year running weekly game. A bunch of 50 year olds still yelling about rules over the table.  We are ridiculous to listen to.


My weekly D&D group has been playing via video chat for the last year and a half. Hopefully we can get back to in-person sessions at some point.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 2, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My weekly D&D group has been playing via video chat for the last year and a half. Hopefully we can get back to in-person sessions at some point.


Ditto, sorry, we're de-railing this thread.  Should we start a new one in the "Game Room"?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 2, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My weekly D&D group has been playing via video chat for the last year and a half. Hopefully we can get back to in-person sessions at some point.


I'm in two groups. One we tried to switch over to online due to covid, but a couple members didn't want to be stuck in front of a screen after being stuck in front of one all day. 

The other one we took a break til we could go back in-person. Luckily it's a group that involves people who don't go out at all (unemployed or WFH), myself (WFH), and my landlord who lives downstairs and I'd be coming into contact with regularly anyway. Not sure if it would have continued otherwise.


----------



## Ji Yuu (Feb 2, 2022)

PeterMichaelF said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.
> 
> ...


I have practiced Tae Kwon Do for 46 years. Here is my advice:
1. Find a new instructor; the one you have now has the wrong approach to teaching martial arts.
2. Tae Kwon Do is fine; just stay away from sport and focus on the self defense aspect of the art (it's the original purpose behind it).
3. Once you have followed 1 and 2, you'll understand why I encourage you to buy yourself a Karategi and commit yourself to learning the art of combat (that's what Martial Arts is).


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm in two groups. One we tried to switch over to online due to covid, but a couple members didn't want to be stuck in front of a screen after being stuck in front of one all day.
> 
> The other one we took a break til we could go back in-person. Luckily it's a group that involves people who don't go out at all (unemployed or WFH), myself (WFH), and my landlord who lives downstairs and I'd be coming into contact with regularly anyway. Not sure if it would have continued otherwise.


WOW! Just wow! Is every martial arts guy in here also a dnd nerd like me and my whole crew of martial arts friends? This deserves a thread. What in the heck? I never would have guessed.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> WOW! Just wow! Is every martial arts guy in here also a dnd nerd like me and my whole crew of martial arts friends? This deserves a thread. What in the heck? I never would have guessed.


I think just about everyone in my HEMA group plays RPGs, which is perhaps not surprising. A good percentage of the Sumo people I've met do as well, which is perhaps more unexpected. (Seriously, I'm not sure which group is more full of nerds.)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> WOW! Just wow! Is every martial arts guy in here also a dnd nerd like me and my whole crew of martial arts friends? This deserves a thread. What in the heck? I never would have guessed.


Part of it might be that people interested in dnd are also more likely to come onto forums like this. There's a few other guys on here that I know are DND nerds too.

That said, most of the people I play magic (card game) with do some sort of martial arts (we got myself, a boxer, a thai boxer, a wrestler, a jjj guy and some others), and most of the time I've mentioned it to people, they either play dnd, have played it, or have been interested in it just never played.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> WOW! Just wow! Is every martial arts guy in here also a dnd nerd like me and my whole crew of martial arts friends? This deserves a thread. What in the heck? I never would have guessed.


Used to be.  Haven’t played in decades.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You would think so, given that accurate information is much easier to find these days. Unfortunately (as we've seen for all sorts of non-martial arts info) _mis_information is also easier to disseminate as well. This was the first result I found when I did a search for taekwondo history.





Steve said:


> We have people who believe that the vaccine is changing their DNA.  Was reading the weird thread about JKD in Sacramento and did a quick google search for JKD in Sacramento.  One of the guys who teaches it had filled his JKD page up with conspiracy stuff.  I took a screen shot of this from that guy's JKD page, because I thought it was so crazy.
> 
> Point is, people believe all kinds of crazy.  We have dudes on this site who I'm sure still think the pandemic was a politically driven hoax.
> 
> ...


As you point out, willful ignorance and sheer lunacy are both still factors.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think just about everyone in my HEMA group plays RPGs, which is perhaps not surprising. A good percentage of the Sumo people I've met do as well, which is perhaps more unexpected. (Seriously, I'm not sure which group is more full of nerds.)


Lol!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Used to be.  Haven’t played in decades.


It’s not too late.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It’s not too late.


Ha!  Truthfully, I am frequently tempted to pick up a copy of the basic game, just out of nostalgia.  I very much doubt I will ever play, just because I don’t see carving out time for it nowadays, but I like the idea of having it around.  Just last weekend I was in Barnes and Noble and was looking through a big book, a collection of the artwork from D&D from over the years.  I remember a whole lot of that stuff, all the way back to the early days.  I believe it was still the 1970s when I began playing, I was younger than ten.  We played on the Basic set, then the Advanced set, then our group started using the Players Hand Book and Dungeonmaster’s guide, and it spread out from there.  I haven’t played an RPG since high school, we did some Villans and Vigilantes, and a couple others as well, but I always liked the original D&D best.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Ha!  Truthfully, I am frequently tempted to pick up a copy of the basic game, just out of nostalgia.  I very much doubt I will ever play, just because I don’t see carving out time for it nowadays, but I like the idea of having it around.  Just last weekend I was in Barnes and Noble and was looking through a big book, a collection of the artwork from D&D from over the years.  I remember a whole lot of that stuff, all the way back to the early days.  I believe it was still the 1970s when I began playing, I was younger than ten.  We played on the Basic set, then the Advanced set, then our group started using the Players Hand Book and Dungeonmaster’s guide, and it spread out from there.  I haven’t played an RPG since high school, we did some Villans and Vigilantes, and a couple others as well, but I always liked the original D&D best.


Exactly the same progression. 4 th grade 10 years old.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 1, 2022)

PeterMichaelF said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's not a happy day for me, but I've decided to join the forum and ask for your opinions before labelling it a disastrous one. I'm very sorry to be writing so much in my first post here, but I'm really upset, and maybe I need letting off steam as much as I need advice.
> 
> ...


A lot of words my friend. I have been teaching and prcticing American Kenpo for fifty years and it has kept me very limber. You do not have to kick high in Kenpo. You have to learn forms Katas, but try to find a instructor that teaches just techniques. Techniques are like miniature katas.
Sifu
Puyallulp, WA


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