# After submission



## fanged_seamus (Aug 15, 2002)

A question from a non-grappler:

In a ground self-defense (not sport) situation, let's say you force an attacker to submit using an armbar or something.  How do you let go of your opponent and get back up without relinquishing control?  What keeps your opponent from coming at you again?

I'm really curious to see how you end a situation like this!

Thanks in advance,
Tad Finnegan


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## arnisador (Aug 15, 2002)

Wouldn't you just break the arm?


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## lvwhitebir (Aug 15, 2002)

To me it's the same answer if it's from the ground or standing.  Can't the guy just come back at you?  Yes.  
What do you do?  You try to get away from him.  If he attacks again, you take care of business again.

In both situations you can incapacitate the attack, but you don't necessarily want to.

   WhiteBirch


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## Blindside (Aug 15, 2002)

I'm not going for a "submit" in a street situation, I'm going trying to neutralize him.  If I get an armbar, the arm is going to be broken before the person gets the chance to say uncle.  Then if he keeps coming (seems unlikely but you never know) he'll be doing it at a big disadvantage.

Tapping out is for training partners or law enforcement types, not street self-defense.

Lamont

PS There are a number of lockflows that will get you to a better position, but it is tough from the classic armbar (unless you are facedown, then you have more options).


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 15, 2002)

> To me it's the same answer if it's from the ground or standing. Can't the guy just come back at you? Yes.
> What do you do? You try to get away from him.



I agree that the goal is to gain distance.  We are trained to hit until the immediate threat is neutralized, then create distance (i.e., back away) to escape.  My view is that it's easier to create distance when your standing and your attacker is lying on the ground.  When both of you are on the ground, I don't quite see how to give yourself an opportunity to create distance.




> Wouldn't you just break the arm?



In a life/death situation, I'd do WHATEVER is necessary to come out the survivor.  The big issue is what to do about that drunk a****le who won't back down.  In my state, breaking a bone is a felony, and it's harder to prove self-defense in felony cases.  Basically, the burden gets shifted to the defender to show that breaking the bone was NECESSARY for self-defense.  Restraint is sometimes preferrable to damage....

Really, all of this is hypothetical, but I was curious if there were any strategies for creating distance as you remove a hold.

Thanks for the responses so far, and I'm looking forward to what you have to say.

Tad Finnegan


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## Jay Bell (Aug 15, 2002)

I think I'm missing something here...attackers don't submit in street fights.  Tapping out in a dojo doesn't transfer to someone tapping out in the street.

Case in point...a new student in our Systema school had a friend who was a cop.  He chased down and dropped an assailant and continued to apply pressure to a joint lock because (being a long time Aikido student) he was waiting for the tapout...

If I had someone pinned into the ground, chances are I wouldn't sit there applying pressure to a joint.  Other things are happening in the midst of what is happening.  Strikes, knees dropping into ribs, compressing the chest cavity to cease the opponent's control of breathing, etc.  If you allow them to get up and they still have enough steam and gumption to come back for more, then maybe the 'control' over the opponent wasn't as strong as you thought.


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> 
> *I think I'm missing something here... *



Nah, you're not missing anything -- I'm just not too bright when it comes to this sort of thing.  That's why I asked the question -- what may be obvious to you isn't to me in this case.

The gist of what I've seen, though, could be summed up as "inflict sufficient injury to prevent retaliation."  Creating distance doesn't matter as much then.  Sound about right?

Tad


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## Jay Bell (Aug 15, 2002)

I didn't mean to come off in a snotty tone...my apologies if that's how it seemed.

It doesn't necessarily have to be 'injury' so much.  Making someone uncomfortable or make them second guess their actions is often enough.  Vlad once talked about if someone is good looking, to slap them across the face.  It attacks the ego and may lessen the threat of what is happening.

-or-

To look at it a different way, simply apply the injury to something other then their physical body.....even though you may reach that other 'something' _through_ their body.

Distance, in my opinion, is a defining factor of physical confrontation.  Not only the ability to create and close distance, but to also control the distance that is created and taken.


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## arnisador (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> 
> *compressing the chest cavity to cease the opponent's control of breathing*



People overlook this--but it works well. In a highschool fight I tossed a guy, slammed his chest with a forearm as he hit the ground to knock the air out, then slapped a choke on him.

Actually, he submitted. It was during Phys. Ed. class and we were supposed to be practicing wrestling when he decided to pick a fight with me (as he'd been trying to do for weeks on end). At first he tried to hit me while I was choking him, then he stretched his arm out and waived it at the coach for help. The coach thought we were still just wrestling. The coach gave me the "pin him" sign since I was holding one of his shoulders up so no one would think he was pinned before I was done with him. I pinned him--he was purple-faced--and let him go. He never bothered me again.


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## lvwhitebir (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanged_seamus _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



To me it's a matter of your positioning.  If you're on top, say a mount, side mount, or back control, then you should be able to get away reasonably easily, especially if you're on his back.  Push on him as you get up, that keeps him from following you.

For self-defense, I'd rather be in the mounted position, rather than going for the guard.  If I wind up in the guard, I'll try to reverse it first, just to make sure I can maintain control.

Attacks of choice would be naked chokes or some kind of immobilization hold (e.g., his arm wrapped around his own neck).  These offer very controlled pain that don't leave any damage (which is especially useful to stay away from lawsuites).

   WhiteBirch


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## darkdragoon (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanged_seamus _
> 
> *A question from a non-grappler:
> 
> ...



 An armbar wouldn't be the best choice unless it's the only option.  A leg submission can hinder their mobility enough and a choke would leave them out...  But from an armbar I'd try and go up to knee on chest or something.


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