# Dr. Dave and Orbits



## Yondanchris (Apr 14, 2011)

Hello all, 

Today I came across a couple of videos of Dr. Dave discussing orbits and was floored! 

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This is exactly the type of discussion and training that we incorporate with Shaolin Kempo and Marlon could attest (as well as others). 
I totally agree with Dr. Dave, but I will advocate that beginners should not attempt this type of movement artificially until they have 
learned the basic IP of the technique. Not only does this idea create purdy techniques but they become explosive and powerful! 

Thanks Dr. Dave


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## marlon (Apr 14, 2011)

You tube is not loading on my lap top for some reason, but I finally got to see these vids.  Nice.  What I find interesting is that I have always attributed those movements from the sil lum hung gar brought by the black belt society and not GM Chow.These are strongly noted in plum tree blocking, nengli form and sho tung kwa.  Very powerful movements.  I tend to stay away from the tilting Dr.Dave mentioned.   I also, work on having the circle generated mostly by the waist and work on developing the same motion and power by product without the bigger arm motion.  Thanks for saring this find

Respectfully,
marlon


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## OKenpo942 (Apr 29, 2011)

Very interesting. We have practiced these movements for years, but it is interesting to hear another explain it from a difference perspective. Some may argue that the larger orbits contradict the 'economy of motion' principle, however it certainly does increase power and is aesthetically pleasing.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 29, 2011)

Sandanchris said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Today I came across a couple of videos of Dr. Dave discussing orbits and was floored!
> 
> ...


While this may match with what you guys are all doing, and there is nothing incorrect about what he is saying, this method of achieving power in kenpo techs is so foreign to me I want to scream. The short version of what I am talking about is that we use different circles while traveling the opposite direction, but I am just not havin' this. LOL
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Apr 29, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> While this may match with what you guys are all doing, and there is nothing incorrect about what he is saying, this method of achieving power in kenpo techs is so foreign to me I want to scream. The short version of what I am talking about is that we use different circles while traveling the opposite direction, but I am just not havin' this. LOL
> Sean


 
On the same note, this concept of circles differs on a very fundamental level from how circular movement is used and where it comes from in any of the Chinese arts I've every encountered. I've had several people from different Chinese systems give their assessment and they have all said the same thing.

edited for content, I had incorrectly expressed myself.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 29, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> On the same note, this concept of circles does not differs on a very fundamental level from how circular movement is used and where it comes from in any of the Chinese arts I've every encountered.  I've had several people from different Chinese systems give their assessment and they have all said the same thing.


If he were to show smaller circles done well, I would be more on board with the contrast. 
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Apr 29, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> If he were to show smaller circles done well, I would be more on board with the contrast.
> Sean


 
yeah, in all the Chinese methods I've experienced, and the folks I've discussed this with, those circles are an expression of the engagement of the foundation.  They are not simply circular movement drawn with the arms and hands, which is what it appears Dave is doing in the video.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 29, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> yeah, in all the Chinese methods I've experienced, and the folks I've discussed this with, those circles are an expression of the engagement of the foundation.  They are not simply circular movement drawn with the arms and hands, which is what it appears Dave is doing in the video.


On that note, everything goes around, where as bearing those circles in mind, everything could eminate from the center most of the time.
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Apr 29, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> On that note, everything goes around, where as bearing those circles in mind, everything could eminate from the center most of the time.
> Sean


 

actually it's pretty clear when a punch is driven by the foundation, and that includes circular movements as well.  It really does look different and once you've been properly clued into it it's not hard to see that difference.  The stuff in these videos is not driven by the foundation, not by any Chinese standards that I've seen anyway.

I guess one could say that Kenpo, or at least Dave's kenpo has its own concept of circles and it's different from what the Chinese methods are doing.  If that's the case then so be it.  But I think it's a stretch.


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## clfsean (Apr 29, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> On that note, everything goes around, where as bearing those circles in mind, everything could eminate from the center most of the time.
> Sean


 
CMA addage concerning circles... center to circle, circle to center. Simple as that.


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## marlon (May 1, 2011)

I am not sure that Dr.dave was only segmenting out the motion of the arms here.  Power is produced by the root, the waist/ center uses a circle to direct and drive the power, and the path of the energy. I am not sure i clearly experessed that...In any case the circles produced by the arms are a product of the center and not the muscles of the arm.  At least, in the sk I am learning and teaching

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2011)

marlon said:


> I am not sure that Dr.dave was only segmenting out the motion of the arms here. Power is produced by the root, the waist/ center uses a circle to direct and drive the power, and the path of the energy. I am not sure i clearly experessed that...In any case the circles produced by the arms are a product of the center and not the muscles of the arm. At least, in the sk I am learning and teaching
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I agree with you, and I believe that is what is missing in what Dave was doing.  He made no reference to it, just the path of the circles.  Indicates to me that it's not connected to the foundation and the waist.


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree with you, and I believe that is what is missing in what Dave was doing.  He made no reference to it, just the path of the circles.  Indicates to me that it's not connected to the foundation and the waist.


 I thought the breaking posture for the larger circles was interesting. I am thinking that somewhere in his lineage they rejected the whole idea of using the center. I guess it could a viable alternative to kenpo as I know it, but I would have to see it in action to make any harsh judgement.
Sean


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I thought the breaking posture for the larger circles was interesting. I am thinking that somewhere in his lineage they rejected the whole idea of using the center. I guess it could a viable alternative to kenpo as I know it, but I would have to see it in action to make any harsh judgement.
> Sean


 
I'd noticed that point too, and that is in direct violation to what I've been taught in white crane.


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## clfsean (May 2, 2011)

Hmmm... how can you have a circle without a center?


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Hmmm... how can you have a circle without a center?


Using your center is not the same as acknowledging that circles have a center. Now I'm saying, "Hmmm" but it more of a Dark Crystal Hmmm.:mst:
Sean


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## clfsean (May 2, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Using your center is not the same as acknowledging that circles have a center. Now I'm saying, "Hmmm" but it more of a Dark Crystal Hmmm.:mst:
> Sean



I haz confuzshun.

Not sure I'm getting that point.


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2011)

clfsean said:


> I haz confuzshun.
> 
> Not sure I'm getting that point.


I thought you were joking. My bad. Yes Doctor Dave is the center of his circles, but only parts of him... quadrants, if you will. But by choosing your own center line as a path to strike along, you move as a unit, and your full self is behind the strike. Add a little momentum and its golden.:mst:
Sean


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## clfsean (May 2, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I thought you were joking. My bad.



Nope... no joking except for the cat speak a post ago... It's all good.



Touch Of Death said:


> Yes Doctor Dave is the center of his circles, but only parts of him... quadrants, if you will.
> 
> But by choosing your own center line as a path to strike along, you move as a unit, and your full self is behind the strike. Add a little momentum and its golden.:mst:
> Sean



Well yeah I agree there. You have to control & maintain your own center line otherwise you're tooled. I'm a (along with most CMA practitioners) big believer in taking your center line... and subsequently, your lunch money. :ultracool  This is at the same time, controlling & protecting our own center line to keep the circle available as a tool to us.

But I think the kenpo speak/terminology is causing the gap in communication. I don't speak kenpo-ese (no joke... kenpo has its own language). Everything generates from the center, including circles (center to circle). When working outside to inside, a circle in footwork & striking will generally put you in a more favorable location to do as you wish (circle to center). 

Mind you to, this little formula applies to locking, controlling, throwing, entering & everything else. The circle doesn't stop there either. We exist in a 360 degree world, so there's never not a circle, again... in my experience and skill set.


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## Inkspill (May 2, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Using your center is not the same as acknowledging that circles have a center. Now I'm saying, "Hmmm" but it more of a Dark Crystal Hmmm.:mst:
> Sean


 

haha skeksies reference! +1

if your discussion gets too heated, you could always have a trial by stone! : )


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## marlon (May 6, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I'd noticed that point too, and that is in direct violation to what I've been taught in white crane.


 
That would be a direct violation of what I have been taught and teach in kempo.  Otherwise, it is not the waist driving the power.  To be claer, when we speak of the center we are not speaking of the center of the drawing on the floor, correct?  

Respectfully,
marlon


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## punisher73 (May 6, 2011)

I don't think the intent of the video was on how to do a proper circle, but to teach how to make orbits in your technique and start to learn "rounded corners" and how they can add to your technique.

In online conversations I have had with Dr. Dave, he has always talked about how SGM Parker used large circles in his movements and advocates the same.  I doubt that Dr. Dave and his experience wouldn't know how to generate power using the waist method and has commented as such on CLF and how it relates to kenpo.

This is the problem with videos.  It teaches a specific lesson and people look at all the "missing stuff" that wasn't there when it wasn't the point of what was being illustrated.


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## marlon (May 6, 2011)

I am pretty sure that Dr.Dave knows how to generate power.  We are simply discussing the videos themselves and in relation to our MA experience, and not commenting on what Dr.Dave knows or does not know.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Touch Of Death (May 6, 2011)

marlon said:


> I am pretty sure that Dr.Dave knows how to generate power.  We are simply discussing the videos themselves and in relation to our MA experience, and not commenting on what Dr.Dave knows or does not know.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


The small circle examples he gave make me wonder.
Sean


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## Flying Crane (May 6, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think the intent of the video was on how to do a proper circle, but to teach how to make orbits in your technique and start to learn "rounded corners" and how they can add to your technique.
> 
> In online conversations I have had with Dr. Dave, he has always talked about how SGM Parker used large circles in his movements and advocates the same. I doubt that Dr. Dave and his experience wouldn't know how to generate power using the waist method and has commented as such on CLF and how it relates to kenpo.
> 
> This is the problem with videos. It teaches a specific lesson and people look at all the "missing stuff" that wasn't there when it wasn't the point of what was being illustrated.


 
The thing is, from the Chinese perspective, the circles are meaningless if they are not properly connected to, and driven by, the foundation.  Circles for the sake of circles don't give you anything.  Connecting those circles to the foundation was not even mentioned in the videos, and in the demonstrations it was clear that the connection did not exist.

Unless of course Kenpo has an entirely independent theory on circles...


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## Flying Crane (May 6, 2011)

marlon said:


> That would be a direct violation of what I have been taught and teach in kempo. Otherwise, it is not the waist driving the power. To be claer, when we speak of the center we are not speaking of the center of the drawing on the floor, correct?
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
well, I don't have a drawing on my floor, but I'm talking about bracing the feet against the floor and using them to press and drive against the floor, directing that power up to rotate the hips and torso to drive any strike, circular or straight.


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## marlon (May 6, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> well, I don't have a drawing on my floor, but I'm talking about bracing the feet against the floor and using them to press and drive against the floor, directing that power up to rotate the hips and torso to drive any strike, circular or straight.


 
yep. we are pretty much on the same page


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## ATACX GYM (Jul 5, 2011)

I only just came upon this thread.I think that the best person to clarify his position and thoughts on the matter visavis the posts that have populated a portion of this thread is Dr.Dave himself.I'm one of the Kenpo men who cock and fire,load and explode as boxers do.I see no reason to NOT do that; I simply add those movements to the motions that I have trained in Kenpo and other martial arts...including a variant of Shaolin Kempo Chuan Fa that I was first taught 17 years ago and now hold rank in.



Flying Crane said:


> well, I don't have a drawing on my floor, but I'm talking about bracing the feet against the floor and using them to press and drive against the floor, directing that power up to rotate the hips and torso to drive any strike, circular or straight.



There's alot of this in Kenpo.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 6, 2011)

ATACX GYM said:


> I only just came upon this thread.I think that the best person to clarify his position and thoughts on the matter visavis the posts that have populated a portion of this thread is Dr.Dave himself.I'm one of the Kenpo men who cock and fire,load and explode as boxers do.I see no reason to NOT do that; I simply add those movements to the motions that I have trained in Kenpo and other martial arts...including a variant of Shaolin Kempo Chuan Fa that I was first taught 17 years ago and now hold rank in.



I have no reason to believe Dave is not aware of this thread and he is of course welcome to comment and clarify anything.  Dave does post here on martialtalk, tho he is more active usually on kenpotalk.




> There's alot of this in Kenpo.



There SHOULD be a lot of this in kenpo.  A big criticism I have of how a lot of people execute technique, regardless of what system they practice, kenpo or otherwise is that they lack this principle.  They fail to connect the foundation to the technique, so the technique is driven by arm strength alone.  Sure, that can be effective all by itself, but connecting to the foundation is stronger and gives you the turbo kick that arm strength cannot give you, especially if you don't happen to be big and strong.

Most people believe they are in fact engaging the foundation.  They do pivot.  The problem is, there is no real connection between the pivot and the technique.  The timing is off and the connection fails, so even tho they do actually pivot, the pivot didn't give them anything.  They end up simply changing stances, changing positions, but that change didn't give them anything, didn't accomplish anything, didn't power the technique at all.  But most people don't realize there is a disconnect.  They will swear up and down that they are doing this, and yes they are "doing" it, but it is meaningless because they are doing it incorrectly.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 6, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I have no reason to believe Dave is not aware of this thread and he is of course welcome to comment and clarify anything.  Dave does post here on martialtalk, tho he is more active usually on kenpotalk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HHHHMMMMMMMMMMM.:mst:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 30, 2011)

Hadn't seen this. In those vids, I intentionally violated floor-up power generation from rooted stance, in both methods. My intent was to illustrate how a point of origin can be found in a number of outer perimeter nodal points, using different C&P. It was, by design, arms and a little bit of waist, only. 

Upright posture is not ensured in combat, and in keeping with the ideas of variable expansion and use of the 3-D universal pattern, if we are driving a strike ina  line around the center, we can modify the line of attack and angle of entry by keeping the relative path fixed to a changed axis. I never got to expand on that idea.

Another reason I intentionally did not demo what the larger paths of travel looked like when executed from a rooted stance and driven from a center, was my involvement in a wreck not long before these were shot. Engaging my core musculature at the stage of injury recovery I was in while shooting this would have aggravated some disc herniations even more, leading to several days in bed on pain meds. As it was, I doped up on pain meds and whiskey to be able to move enough to shoot these pieces; they were relevant to a discussion that was active on americankenpoforum.com at the time. 

Sean -- I also dissociated smaller circles from core for my "crappy kenpo mockery" demo, because that's typically what I see. Folks who generally keep it small and quick and choppy, tend not to elongate thier motion nearly enough to require any backup mass or centrally driven rotation, leading to an inability to see it. 

On a different -- but related -- note, spent a lot of years in Tien Shan. My prof started out all motions from the ground, up. Once you learned that, he INSISTED that it was an elemental way of moving, that inherently possessed certain limitations, including a predictability  your opponents could use against you. He posited the formation of a moveable center; that all basics and forms be revisited, and explored being generated from the dan tien point, out, rather than the ground, up. 

Our relationship to the ground is not a constant; it changes in moments. Moving from a transitional center, rather than a predictable fixed point (the floor), allows us to generate energy into a strike from compromised postures. Not so if it always has to start at the floor. His final application of this idea was appreciated when we took to the air. Lots of training time spent on doing hand/foot combinations from jumps. In kenpo terms, a bit like executing 5 Swords while flying through the air throwing a Hwarang-Do triple chicken kick (leaping front, roundhouse, spinning back crescent), interspersing the hand strikes into the time spaces between the kicks. 

I liked the idea of it, and it certainly looked cool & felt dynamic. But looking back, I think that may be where I got some of my pre-injury chronic back issues from... why the Chiropractor walks like an old man for the first couple hours each morning.

Meanwhile, every kenpo lineage I've trained under drives home driving from the floor, up. Been a source of disagreement between myself and other guys about the footwork in Short Form 1, with others saying the footwork is concurrant with the execution of the blocks, and me asserting that the block is driven by the footwork, as the feet screw into the floor and the winding motion unleashes through the body, from the floor up, and out the hand.

Ah, well... whaddya gonna do?

D.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 30, 2011)

I can't disagree that there is crappy small circle stuff out there, but if you make a joke of it, we small circle guys want to know what the joke is, and we aren't seeing it. Short one has us covering to the rear and not stepping through in reverse; so, that might be part of your problem right there. You don't squat and screw it in, you swing your leg straight back and off the line of attack. It is much easier to perform. Save for the blocks, falling straight forward or falling straight back is what short one teaches. It is a very relaxed form, Sir.
Sean


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 30, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I can't disagree that there is crappy small circle stuff out there, but if you make a joke of it, we small circle guys want to know what the joke is, and we aren't seeing it. Short one has us covering to the rear and not stepping through in reverse; so, that might be part of your problem right there. You don't squat and screw it in, you swing your leg straight back and off the line of attack. It is much easier to perform. Save for the blocks, falling straight forward or falling straight back is what short one teaches. It is a very relaxed form, Sir.
> Sean



See? I disagree with that interp/purpose of SF1, right off the bat. White Belt form, white belt foot maneuvers, entry level basics. Swinging is the end goal, but should be introduced during a revisitation of the White Belt material, at a later date. At first, a simple step-through to the rear. It's the opposite direction of the first real foot maneuver drilled in kenpo (the step-through, forward).

Later, in Orange, stepping rearward into a rear twist, and twisting out. Later still, swing-gate maneuver.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 30, 2011)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> See? I disagree with that interp/purpose of SF1, right off the bat. White Belt form, white belt foot maneuvers, entry level basics. Swinging is the end goal, but should be introduced during a revisitation of the White Belt material, at a later date. At first, a simple step-through to the rear. It's the opposite direction of the first real foot maneuver drilled in kenpo (the step-through, forward).
> 
> Later, in Orange, stepping rearward into a rear twist, and twisting out. Later still, swing-gate maneuver.


Reverse step-throughs are not simple. If you don't want people fighting with them, you shouldn't teach it as a base.
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2011)

Firstly, thanks for jumping in here Dave and giving some additional background info. Particularly about the crash-up, being in the middle of healing is gonna change how things look.




Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> On a different -- but related -- note, spent a lot of years in Tien Shan. My prof started out all motions from the ground, up. Once you learned that, he INSISTED that it was an elemental way of moving, that inherently possessed certain limitations, including a predictability your opponents could use against you. He posited the formation of a moveable center; that all basics and forms be revisited, and explored being generated from the dan tien point, out, rather than the ground, up.
> 
> Our relationship to the ground is not a constant; it changes in moments. Moving from a transitional center, rather than a predictable fixed point (the floor), allows us to generate energy into a strike from compromised postures. Not so if it always has to start at the floor. His final application of this idea was appreciated when we took to the air. Lots of training time spent on doing hand/foot combinations from jumps. In kenpo terms, a bit like executing 5 Swords while flying through the air throwing a Hwarang-Do triple chicken kick (leaping front, roundhouse, spinning back crescent), interspersing the hand strikes into the time spaces between the kicks.



regarding the bit above here, I'll say that this is not true from my own experience. Our method in white crane is all driven from the ground, but the progression of training eliminates any predictability or broadcasting of what is coming. On a very basic level, we train the foundation with an actual foot pivot to drive the full body. But that is just a foundational training tool to get us going. While it always remains fundamental to how we train, the progression is that we can throw the technique without that foot movement, but the foot movement taught us how to engage the full body. Instead of moving the foot, the foot is pressed and driven into the ground to power the technique, with torso rotation. But even that begins to disappear as one's ability increases. No matter what stance one is in, or even no stance at all, the feet can always press in, as long as you've trained properly and understand this. When my sifu throws a tech, it looks like it's just the arm. But when he demonstrates for us, we hold his feet, legs, and hips while he throws the tech, and we can feel the explosive power that he is using, still from the ground up. You cannot see it, but you can feel it when you put your hand on him. It is always driven from the foundation, from the ground.

If the movement initiates at the dan tien, then I believe the feet are left out of the picture, or only engage after it no longer matters. You still get some sort of torso engagement, but it lacks the leg power and the stance, power from the ground. I do not see it as having limitations, or broadcasting what is coming, as long as the progression in training is done properly, and it's understood that the big movements that do broadcast are only tools to teach a skill, and not how a technique would be thrown in real life. 



> Meanwhile, every kenpo lineage I've trained under drives home driving from the floor, up. Been a source of disagreement between myself and other guys about the footwork in Short Form 1, with others saying the footwork is concurrant with the execution of the blocks, and me asserting that the block is driven by the footwork, as the feet screw into the floor and the winding motion unleashes through the body, from the floor up, and out the hand.



regarding the next piece above, I completely agree with you here. I was taught in kenpo to make the step and block simultaneous, but it always felt like it was missing proper power. I wanted to learn what my teacher was teaching, so I worked on it that way, but ultimately I have to disagree with that method. Stepping and rooting, "screwing in" as you call it to deliver the block, I believe is the stronger way. As skill improves, the lag time between the step and the rotation and block is reduced until it essentially disappears, but the skill is established and that screwing in is still there even tho it's not visually perceptible.



Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> See? I disagree with that interp/purpose of SF1, right off the bat. White Belt form, white belt foot maneuvers, entry level basics. Swinging is the end goal, but should be introduced during a revisitation of the White Belt material, at a later date. At first, a simple step-through to the rear. It's the opposite direction of the first real foot maneuver drilled in kenpo (the step-through, forward).
> 
> Later, in Orange, stepping rearward into a rear twist, and twisting out. Later still, swing-gate maneuver.



Now here I find disagreement. From my point of view, you've got the progression backwards, if I am understanding you correctly. The big movement should always come first, because that lays the foundation and teaches the skill. As skill improves, the big movement gradually decreases to a small movement, until it is undetectable, but the power source is still engaged and is still happening.

I understand that the big movement is somewhat more complicated compared to the small movement. But starting big will instill the concept and the skill building from the beginning. If you start small and expect to expand the movement later, then habits have been instilled that need to be broken. Ultimately, smaller movement is the goal, not big movement. Big movement, as I've stated above, is the tool to train you which enables you to get to the small movement and still have power with the small movement. Otherwise, it's just small movement limited by the raw strength of the arm and shoulder (in a puch, for example).


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 30, 2011)

Movement from gross, to subtle.


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## Yondanchris (Aug 31, 2011)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Hadn't seen this. In those vids, I intentionally violated floor-up power generation from rooted stance, in both methods. My intent was to illustrate how a point of origin can be found in a number of outer perimeter nodal points, using different C&P. It was, by design, arms and a little bit of waist, only.
> 
> Upright posture is not ensured in combat, and in keeping with the ideas of variable expansion and use of the 3-D universal pattern, if we are driving a strike ina  line around the center, we can modify the line of attack and angle of entry by keeping the relative path fixed to a changed axis. I never got to expand on that idea.
> 
> ...



Thanks for chiming in Dr. Dave!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 31, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> ...If the movement initiates at the dan tien, then I believe the feet are left out of the picture, or only engage after it no longer matters. You still get some sort of torso engagement, but it lacks the leg power and the stance, power from the ground...



You are correct, and the dissociation is an intentional one, allowing the feet to be contending with one attacker, while the hands contend with another, all while flying like a crazed kamikaze through the arena of multiple opponents. Not saying I agree with it, but he was the boss, so we did it anyway.


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