# Should I train Kobudo all by myself?



## Syed01 (Jun 25, 2017)

I am a shotokan karateka (Brown Kyu 2). When I see kobudo movements a lot of kata looks similar to karate kata. So I thought trying Kobudo with Bo or Nunchaku might help me to learn something more. Unfortunately Kobudo isn't taught in our dojo or near anywhere in other dojo, the best way to start is just by coping movements from books or youtube videos. Is it worth a try to do something without any physical instruction? Your opinions are humbly welcomed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2017)

If you're just using it to have a different way to work on he movements, go for it. If you want to develop skill with the weapon, find a competent instructor to get you started, then revisit once a month or so to get corrections on what you've practiced.


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## drop bear (Jun 25, 2017)

Yeah. Go for it. I don't think you would get much fighting application from an instructor anyway.

I mean who would he have nun chuck fought ever?


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## CB Jones (Jun 25, 2017)

Syed01 said:


> I am a shotokan karateka (Brown Kyu 2). When I see kobudo movements a lot of kata looks similar to karate kata. So I thought trying Kobudo with Bo or Nunchaku might help me to learn something more. Unfortunately Kobudo isn't taught in our dojo or near anywhere in other dojo, the best way to start is just by coping movements from books or youtube videos. Is it worth a try to do something without any physical instruction? Your opinions are humbly welcomed.



Just a suggestion, check out Fumio Demura books on weapons for some reference material and instructions.


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## JR 137 (Jun 25, 2017)

If you have no one to teach you and you're not looking to become the highest level practitioner or compete, the best option I can think of is Saiko-Shihan Mikio Nishiuchi.  Authentic Okinawan kobudo, and his videos are pretty high quality.

Looking into his stuff to post a video or two, and I can't find what I was looking for.  And his website doesn't have the videos I had in mind.  He may have updated/changed them.  Century MA has the videos I've seen for sale for about $15 a piece...

Century Nishiuchi's Traditional Okinawan Kobudo Weaponry Series  Volume 1 | Media | Century Martial Arts

My former instructor bought a few, practiced them, met up with an instructor periodically, and began teaching it.  I loved it.  Here's the organization...

About Us

Just an idea.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 25, 2017)

I do not recommend trying to learn by book or video or internet as the primary or only source of instruction.  You will only learn shallow mimickry, your technique will be filled with error and problems and misunderstandings, and you will not really understand it.  Find a good teacher with whom you can train regularly, face-to-face.  If one is not available to you, then shelve the idea until later, when you can find a good instructor.


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## Headhunter (Jun 26, 2017)

You can if want but I doubt you'll get very good learning without an instructor


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## MI_martialist (Jun 26, 2017)

I will start by saying that kobudo to refer to non-warrior class weaponry really is a misnomer.  Ko - before.  Budo - modern martial arts.

Anyways...put a weapon in your hand and perform your kata.  Put weapons in both hands and perform your kata...

But, if you want to really understand and be able to use whatever weapon it is...you must learn fighting applications, looking at the similarities before the differences.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 26, 2017)

Syed01 said:


> I am a shotokan karateka (Brown Kyu 2). When I see kobudo movements a lot of kata looks similar to karate kata. So I thought trying Kobudo with Bo or Nunchaku might help me to learn something more. Unfortunately Kobudo isn't taught in our dojo or near anywhere in other dojo, the best way to start is just by coping movements from books or youtube videos. Is it worth a try to do something without any physical instruction? Your opinions are humbly welcomed.



I don't often say this, but as an advanced student, you should be able to extract some value in this way. I suggest Bo and Sai as complementary to open hand techniques. Jointed weapons are fine, but generate power differently.

With kobudo, stance, transition, and extending power are key. Done with careful attention, they can inform your empty hand techniques.

Even without formal instructions, you can develop familiarity with handling the weapons and develop some proficiency until you can get in-person training. For example, learning how to properly hold Sai, how to open and close them, the various blocks and strikes. You can develop a feel for them in your hands just by carrying them as you do empty hand kata.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2017)

Just because i was a bit bored. I looked it up. You really can learn anything on line these days.

Traditional Japanese Martial Arts


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## JR 137 (Jun 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Just because i was a bit bored. I looked it up. You really can learn anything on line these days.
> 
> Traditional Japanese Martial Arts


As I was saying before, my previous sensei re-learned weapons from that system, in a way.

He was a 4th dan when he broke away from his previous organization.  He was quite good with the weapons we were doing, but he hated the curriculum.  He came across one of the videos (VHS at the time) and started practicing that stuff alone and using a few of us as guinnea pigs.  He found a guy in the system about 3 hours away, and started traveling every month or so to work with him.  It worked out pretty well.

I still keep in touch with my former sensei, and he's still at it with that curriculum and training with the other guy periodically.

The system itself is solid.  I don't know how well implemented the online version is or what their standards are.  But t if you have a good sense of the weapons and weapons in general, it can work out quite well.  If you've never been taught anything about a bo, I have no idea if it'll make someone competent or not.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 26, 2017)

I have discovered in the last few years that kobudo training is really picking up.  What used to be a sideline to traditional Okinawan and Japanese karate styles now seems to be appearing more often as a separate ryu of its own.

The karate style I train in has several weapons katas as part of the overall system, and I'm still engaged in learning them.  Primarily bo, sai, and tuifa (tonfa).  However, my sensei has affiliated our dojo with a weapons style that is under active development, which has multiple weapons and several dozen katas for them.  It's a lot to learn.  Enjoyable, but there is so much there.  Personally, I really like bo and sai kata.  I find they inform and assist me with my empty-hand karate.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> As I was saying before, my previous sensei re-learned weapons from that system, in a way.
> 
> He was a 4th dan when he broke away from his previous organization.  He was quite good with the weapons we were doing, but he hated the curriculum.  He came across one of the videos (VHS at the time) and started practicing that stuff alone and using a few of us as guinnea pigs.  He found a guy in the system about 3 hours away, and started traveling every month or so to work with him.  It worked out pretty well.
> 
> ...



You mostly wouldn't know if you were competent anyway. Even if you trained with a legit guy. Has he had experience in weapon fighting?

You would need to go out and bang some dudes in the head with the thing.


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## JR 137 (Jun 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You mostly wouldn't know if you were competent anyway. Even if you trained with a legit guy. Has he had experience in weapon fighting?
> 
> You would need to go out and bang some dudes in the head with the thing.


Or spar with them, which we did (only a select few of us after hours and pretty well padded up).

That system has a lot of controlled sparring drills.  They teach some basics of handling the weapon, a kata, then two person drills based on those movements.  We'd also hit heavy bags and other stuff.

What I got most out of weapons training was movement.  It teaches different ways to move and has a sense of urgency to it.


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## JR 137 (Jun 26, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have discovered in the last few years that kobudo training is really picking up.  What used to be a sideline to traditional Okinawan and Japanese karate styles now seems to be appearing more often as a separate ryu of its own.
> 
> The karate style I train in has several weapons katas as part of the overall system, and I'm still engaged in learning them.  Primarily bo, sai, and tuifa (tonfa).  However, my sensei has affiliated our dojo with a weapons style that is under active development, which has multiple weapons and several dozen katas for them.  It's a lot to learn.  Enjoyable, but there is so much there.  Personally, I really like bo and sai kata.  I find they inform and assist me with my empty-hand karate.


My former sensei teaches weapons separately from karate.  It's basically two different systems, and students can choose one or the other, or both.

My current organization has weapons in the karate syllabus.  It starts at shodan, and is required for advancement/promotion thereafter, along with empty hand stuff (empty hand stuff is the overwhelming majority of the syllabus).

Honestly, I like them separate.  Some people love weapons, some hate them.  It just seems not deep enough if it's part of a whole rather than its own separate entity.  I liked the 1 hour weapons class twice a week after the regular classes much better. When it was part of the overall system in my previous organization (before my CI broke away and revamped the curriculum), it seemed more like an afterthought.  Or it was "we haven't done this enough lately" kind of thing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You mostly wouldn't know if you were competent anyway. Even if you trained with a legit guy. Has he had experience in weapon fighting?
> 
> You would need to go out and bang some dudes in the head with the thing.


So now, even competition and heavy sparring won't validate?


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So now, even competition and heavy sparring won't validate?



Sure it would.


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## donald1 (Jun 26, 2017)

Personally i prefer the bo over nunchaku, more distance. But thats up to you what you prefer. I wouldnt recommend trying something new alone. But good like training none the less.

Ps. Be careful with those nunchaku! Hitting funny bones with those things is only funny when other people do it


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So now, even competition and heavy sparring won't validate?


I think he's actually stating competition and heavy sparring are what would validate it here. I'm going to disagree though.

It would validate it to an extent, basically tell you "I'm better with this than the average joe", which is fine if that's what you want. But if the people you are training with don't know what they're doing and the person teaching you doesn't know what you're doing, having the 20 of you fight each other will only help so much. If you keep winning, you have no knowledge of whether you are good with that weapon, or if you're just better than 19 other people who also suck with the weapon.

It's similar to those schools that only fight in-house. They may very well have a lot of experience fighting, but than they go to compete elsewhere, and discover that their skills don't transfer outside of their particular dojo. What sucks is that for a lot of these weapons, there aren't enough people fighting with them (you have the dog brothers but thats about it AFAIK) so that you're almost forced to practice with the people you train with.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I think he's actually stating competition and heavy sparring are what would validate it here. I'm going to disagree though.
> 
> It would validate it to an extent, basically tell you "I'm better with this than the average joe", which is fine if that's what you want. But if the people you are training with don't know what they're doing and the person teaching you doesn't know what you're doing, having the 20 of you fight each other will only help so much. If you keep winning, you have no knowledge of whether you are good with that weapon, or if you're just better than 19 other people who also suck with the weapon.
> 
> It's similar to those schools that only fight in-house. They may very well have a lot of experience fighting, but than they go to compete elsewhere, and discover that their skills don't transfer outside of their particular dojo. What sucks is that for a lot of these weapons, there aren't enough people fighting with them (you have the dog brothers but thats about it AFAIK) so that you're almost forced to practice with the people you train with.


Training for defensive use, being abke to take 19 other people who also train is probably sufficient.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

I will take minor exception to any notion that one has to train to become proficient with kobudo as weapons cum self-defense weapons.

Obviously, the normal reason to train in any form of self-defense is to be able to use that method in a real-life scenario.  I would agree with that for empty-hand self-defense, and with weapons one might find oneself in possession of, such as a gun or a knife.

However, it is my opinion that training with some forms of kobudo (most especially as I have noted, bo and sai) are actually pretty good tools to help your empty-handed self-defense as well.  In other words, there's nothing at all wrong with training bo and sai (perhaps other weapons) on empty air, without full power, without clocking people over the head with them, etc.  Learning to effectively control the weapon can be accomplished without striking anything; the weight, heft, and balance of the weapon in question can all be learned to an effective degree without actually striking anything.

Now, if I intended to train to use, say, a bo, as a self-defense weapon, then absolutely yes, I would say I need to train actually using it to hit people and things.  However, I am unlikely to find myself wandering through Sherwood Forest with a large staff, and suddenly be set upon by ruffians intent on relieving me of my purse of gold coins.  In other words, a) I don't carry a bo around and b) I can't think of a situation in which I'd wish I had one.


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## JR 137 (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I will take minor exception to any notion that one has to train to become proficient with kobudo as weapons cum self-defense weapons.
> 
> Obviously, the normal reason to train in any form of self-defense is to be able to use that method in a real-life scenario.  I would agree with that for empty-hand self-defense, and with weapons one might find oneself in possession of, such as a gun or a knife.
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part.  I'd add that sparring drills are essential to using the weapon though.  Before we did Nishiuchi's curriculum, we never hit anything with them.  We only did kihon and kata with them. Doing Nishiuchi's 2 person sets (I don't know what else to call them) changed pretty much everything and made it worthwhile.  Well, to me anyway.  It forced us to hold the weapons correctly and to put them exactly where they're supposed to be.  The biggest benefit I personally found was it made me really focus on my movement - footwork, mechanics, and hand positioning.

If you held the bo at the correct points and your hands got wacked while blocking a strike aimed at your shins or your ribs, chances are pretty good that you're posture is off.  If you got hit, chances are you're holding it too close to your body (if you got it there in time), if it was knocked out of your hands, you most likely weren't holding it tight enough, stuff like that.  Once we started the two person sets, it became a real weapon.  All we did previously was swing the thing around in the air, relatively speaking.

You don't have to hit hard to do these things, just hard enough to force you to do them correctly.  

And, it's a different workout.  I had an old bo that I'd use to hit a tree in my backyard with.  I was in very good shape prior to that.  Hitting the tree, I was sore in different spots, so I knew I was using muscles I wasn't using previously.

I miss my bo.  I've got to wait until shodan until I use one in class. I've seen them do a lot of stuff that similar in principle - kata and standardized 2 person sets.  They had or the bo differently and strike somewhat differently, but the principles of movement are the same.  If I start practicing what I know, I'll have to unlearn too many things.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I agree for the most part.  I'd add that sparring drills are essential to using the weapon though.



Yes, I agree with all you just posted.  My comment was more aimed at the general "not using the weapon against partners / targets is useless" comments.  It's not useless.  I agree that you can get a lot more out of it with kumite of various sorts and/or full-power strikes against non-living targets.  All your points about the advantages it bestows are correct, IMHO.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2017)

*Here is an idea for you*.  Why not travel to a seminar where someone is teaching Kobudo and learn it properly?  Then you will have some skills to continue practicing on your own and hopefully you will have learned it right so that you won't ingrain bad habits.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Training for defensive use, being abke to take 19 other people who also train is probably sufficient.





Bill Mattocks said:


> I will take minor exception to any notion that one has to train to become proficient with kobudo as weapons cum self-defense weapons.
> 
> Obviously, the normal reason to train in any form of self-defense is to be able to use that method in a real-life scenario.  I would agree with that for empty-hand self-defense, and with weapons one might find oneself in possession of, such as a gun or a knife.
> 
> ...



The initial comment that Gerry responded to was about being competent with weapons, nott hat they can be used for self defense.

IMO, for self-defense, you should be training how to be versatile/transfer the skills to other weapons (bo to umbrella or cane for instance), and as long as you can use it without hurting yourself you're at an advantage.

Being competent with the weapon, based on how I view competency, would require enough people who practice with the weapon to have competition actually determine what methods are successful, or practice against other weapons to determine what your learning can be useful.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Being competent with the weapon, based on how I view competency, would require enough people who practice with the weapon to have competition actually determine what methods are successful, or practice against other weapons to determine what your learning can be useful.



I don't disagree.  I am saying you don't necessarily need to become "competent with the weapon" to gain *some* positive value from training with it, particularly as it informs empty-handed self-defense, which some specific forms of kobudo do.


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## senseiblackbelt (Dec 25, 2017)

Best to train under a dojo. You receive more accurate training.


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## Hyoho (Dec 25, 2017)

Syed01 said:


> I am a shotokan karateka (Brown Kyu 2). When I see kobudo movements a lot of kata looks similar to karate kata. So I thought trying Kobudo with Bo or Nunchaku might help me to learn something more. Unfortunately Kobudo isn't taught in our dojo or near anywhere in other dojo, the best way to start is just by coping movements from books or youtube videos. Is it worth a try to do something without any physical instruction? Your opinions are humbly welcomed.



So you have not even reached a qualified beginners stage and you already want to do your own thing?


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## MI_martialist (Dec 25, 2017)

Not always the case...hopefully one can receive more accurate instruction in a dojo, but how many dojo have we seen where the "instructor" is more clueless than the student?



senseiblackbelt said:


> Best to train under a dojo. You receive more accurate training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 25, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Not always the case...hopefully one can receive more accurate instruction in a dojo, but how many dojo have we seen where the "instructor" is more clueless than the student?


Relatively few.


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## MI_martialist (Dec 26, 2017)

I see it all the time!!



gpseymour said:


> Relatively few.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> I see it all the time!!


I've seen a few. In nearly all cases (visiting schools, attending seminars, viewing demonstrations), the instructor knows a fair amount more than the students. The only real exceptions (even at a couple of REALLY bad schools I've seen) are a few YouTube videos, where it seems the instructor is completely lacking in knowledge.


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## Buka (Dec 26, 2017)

I've never seen a dojo where the instructor was "more clueless" than the students, never even heard of one. I would imagine a dojo like that wouldn't survive.

Odd choice of words, too.


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## Gyuki (Mar 7, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You mostly wouldn't know if you were competent anyway. Even if you trained with a legit guy. Has he had experience in weapon fighting?
> 
> You would need to go out and bang some dudes in the head with the thing.


As a student of tonfa I confirm this statement. And that is what I intend to do in a safe manner of course. 

Foam weapons of quality are available in this day and age. We are also lucky to have various types of schools and practitionners from various arts. Whether it is Kobudo weapons, different kenjutsu styles and even HEMA schools all these people can be practiced with and sparred with in a safe manner with appropriate equipment.

As much as I have learned in school and by myself, I feel that this aspect of weapon training is the mandatory step necessairy to refine and perfect all. Having opponents with different types of weapons and how they use them is the only way to truly practice/understand our weapon. 

In previous times such equipment and availability of exchange of arts was not necessairly available. As technology evolved to serve us better we also need to evolve as martial artist and not necessairly stick to traditions that as great as they may be historically and culturally, may not be in touch anymore with combat (at least the practitionners are not in touch with combat).


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## SgtBarnes (Mar 7, 2022)

So does shotokan not train any weapons even at an advanced stage?


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