# Methodology against grappler. Your thoughts?



## Blaze Dragon (Dec 21, 2013)

What is your methodology or school of thought when fighting/sparring a grappler?

One which is popular, however not very practical in sparring do to risk of injury, is to strike the back of the neck and head with elbow or hand. Another is to raise your knee into there face. Both aggressive and not always going to work.

One I was contemplating is to step back and turn, pulling them past.

What are your thoughts here? What has worked for you? What do you theorize?


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 21, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> What is your methodology or school of thought when fighting/sparring a grappler?
> 
> One which is popular, however not very practical in sparring do to risk of injury, is to strike the back of the neck and head with elbow or hand. Another is to raise your knee into there face. Both aggressive and not always going to work.
> 
> ...



Methodology against a grappler doing what? The defenses you listed are all possibilities against someone attacking you with a football tackle or a sloppy, incorrectly executed double-leg. There is a lot more to grappling than football tackles and sloppy double-legs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 21, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Methodology against a grappler doing what? The defenses you listed are all possibilities against someone attacking you with a football tackle or a sloppy, incorrectly executed double-leg. There is a lot more to grappling than football tackles and sloppy double-legs.



Most people think that "single leg" and "double legs" are all a grappler can do. This is not a right assumption.

IMO, the first step to learn how to deal with a grapplier is to be able to deal with

- double over hooks
- double under hooks
- one over hook, one under hook
- ...

When your opponent can get you into under/over hook, he can take your striking ability away. I'll suggest the 1st simple lesson is to ask your opponent to under/over hook one of your arm. You then figure out how to get out of it. It will be a fun training and can be very useful in "clinch".


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## seasoned (Dec 21, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> What is your methodology or school of thought when fighting/sparring a grappler?


Avoidance..... 



> One which is popular, however not very practical in sparring do to risk of injury, is to strike the back of the neck and head with elbow or hand.


I definitely would not play his game, sticking to striking is what I would do.




> Another is to raise your knee into there face. Both aggressive and not always going to work.


Never hand them your leg.



> One I was contemplating is to step back and turn, pulling them past.


His game plan is to get you on the ground to nullify your power, your's should be to not be to quick to kick but use your hands to strike.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 21, 2013)

i think this is a question that does not have concrete answers.  too many variables, you cannot just say, "do this or do that"

capitalize on your strengths, do not play his game, do not let him get ahold of you, if you get taken down then create an opportunity to break away and get up.  do not try to beat him at his own specialty.  if you are a striker, then you should be striking him always, even when he has grabbed you.  if he grabs you, do not respond by trying to out-grapple him.

if someone on the street intended to attack me with real malicious intent, and he attempted to seize me and in doing so he exposed the back of his neck, then of course i will drive my elbow into his spine.  but to expect the scenario to play out in that manner is short-sighted.

i also believe it is unlikely that a skilled grappler like royce gracie will be attacking me.  more likely it would be a wanna-be who has watched too much ufc, but has little or no training.  i've probably got as much grappling training as most of those guys, and that is limited to wrestling with the neighbor kids in the back yard when i was a kid, and a bit of judo in college and japanese jj as an adult.  but nothing extensive.  so be realistic about who you are likely to face against.  unless you plan on competition, you don't need to worry about champion-caliber grappling athletes.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2013)

As stated already...it all depends on the attack....and I will add...the direction of the force coming at you...there is no one size fits all defense against a grappler...or anyone else for that matter


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 21, 2013)

So we have 2 different kind of opinions:

- Use striking skill to deal with a grappler.
- Try to learn some grappling skill.

If this thread is changed into "Methodology against striker. Your thoughts? Will you answer the same way as you do now? 

- Use grappling skill to deal with a striker.
- Try to learn some striking skill.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 21, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So we have 2 different kind of opinions:
> 
> - Use striking skill to deal with a grappler.
> - Try to learn some grappling skill.
> ...



whatever skills you train to use, that is what you use, no matter what the other guy is doing.  you use YOUR skills.  You don't try to switch skills just because the bad guy is using a certain "skillset".


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 22, 2013)

The basic methodology for sparring/fighting with a grappler is to not let them get a hold of you.


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## punisher73 (Dec 22, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> i also believe it is unlikely that a skilled grappler like royce gracie will be attacking me. more likely it would be a wanna-be who has watched too much ufc, but has little or no training. i've probably got as much grappling training as most of those guys, and that is limited to wrestling with the neighbor kids in the back yard when i was a kid, and a bit of judo in college and japanese jj as an adult. but nothing extensive. so be realistic about who you are likely to face against. unless you plan on competition, you don't need to worry about champion-caliber grappling athletes.



Depends on where you live.  I live in Michigan, and when I went through school, wrestling was a BIG part of that in school activities.  I think in the midwest in general this tends to be true.  So, your chances of facing someone who was trained as a wrestler are pretty good.  And you don't need to be a champion caliber wrestler to be good at the basic takedowns that you have practiced thousands of times on uncooperative people.

The best advice is to go and find some training with wrestlers and have them try to take you down and then explore what your options are.  Also, have them teach you what THEY do to counter their own takedowns and see how that can be explored and integrated into what you do.  It is one thing to have someone "play grappler" and try to take you down and then have an actual grappler try to take you down.  Even if both are going slow for you, you will be able to only really understand the nuances of the attack when a grappler does it.  

Look on youtube and you will find videos done by grapplers that show counters to various takedowns and bodylocks.


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## colemcm (Dec 22, 2013)

Training to counter and avoid their movements is a good idea. Even better is to actually go and train with some wrestlers, Judoka, or BJJ guys. Get a feel for what it's like to be taken down and learn how they deal with being grappled. Gain an understanding of the common mistakes that non-grapplers make when taken to the ground. When they know what they're doing, you don't want to be trying to figure it out as you go along.


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## Blaze Dragon (Dec 23, 2013)

Fair enough, I should have made it clear I was being more general. Though the examples I gave were specific to a single leg or double leg, just in general shooting at my legs, my initial intent was a general method.

I completely agree and fully understand there is not a "one size fits all" which is of course is true for any potential confrontation being it good sportsmanship for competition or sparing. or a street conflict. My main thing was to get some ideas and thoughts on general methods. Such as have been stated "avoidance" "don't fight them at there specialty" etc.

I had an offer to train with some guys who do judo and jiujitsu. Obviously striking is out, and it's an opportunity to see things from a different perspective as I'm mainly a striker. 

I'm interested to see what sorts of things will happen as they go in for there throws. I'm considering ways I might be able to pull pakua and taiji together to disrupt or throw them when they attempt to penetrate my guard for what ever it is they plan, locks, holds, grabs, throws etc. 

Most of my sparring and training has been with the same style or in other cases still a strike situation. I think this will be a healthy growing experience for my martial arts.


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## clfsean (Dec 23, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Fair enough, I should have made it clear I was being more general. Though the examples I gave were specific to a single leg or double leg, just in general shooting at my legs, my initial intent was a general method.
> 
> I completely agree and fully understand there is not a "one size fits all" which is of course is true for any potential confrontation being it good sportsmanship for competition or sparing. or a street conflict. My main thing was to get some ideas and thoughts on general methods. Such as have been stated "avoidance" "don't fight them at there specialty" etc.
> 
> ...



Ummmm... nah. Gonna be blunt, but get ready to be tossed around & tied up like a pretzel. Just how it is.


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## colemcm (Dec 23, 2013)

Sean's right. You're going about this backwards. Get the experience, then start working on theory and methods. . . Then get more experience, go back to the drawing-board, and restart again.

All martial arts exist in a cultural/historic context. Grappling is a major part of the context of our time and culture. Ignore it at your own peril.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2013)

Once talked with a Taijiquan guy (the real stuff not the health stuff) who had decided to go and train and a BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA school and he was having a ball and learning a lot, but he was not the only one. The guys he was training with were having a big issue with his rooting and relaxation. His relaxation was actually a pretty big issue for some of the grapplers he was training with. But he was also learning a lot about grappling too and loving every second of it and the guys he was training with were learning how to deal with someone who tends to be more relaxed and having a good time too

I have found the relaxation of Taiji in application can prove to be and issue for a lot of people from other styles. Now I am not saying that Taiji is superior to anything but what I am saying there are differences between styles that can really mess other style up&#8230;grappling included


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## colemcm (Dec 23, 2013)

That was my experience with BJJ as well (being a Ta Chi guy, myself). That constant training of sinking your weight into your lower body and keeping your upper body relaxed makes throws and take-downs much more difficult to execute on you. Not impossible, but more difficult.


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## colemcm (Dec 23, 2013)

Kind of like Mifune Kyuzo in this clip. Keep an eye on how he keeps his weight sunk and doesn't fight against his opponent's force. (This is a demonstration and is far less chaotic than it will be.)


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2013)

My Taiji Shifu likes that clip of Mifune...and he rarely likes anything


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## colemcm (Dec 23, 2013)

My Sifu liked it as well. He used to tell me, "Some of these Judo guys have good Tai Chi."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 23, 2013)

How to deal with a grappler? Try to "shake" him.


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## colemcm (Dec 23, 2013)

'Cause stirring them is B.S.



I apologize for this in advance.


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 11, 2014)

Theres no other way than to do some grappling yourself, so you know what they are trying to do, and have some ability to defend/attack with grappling yourself. (mix this with what Tai Chi has for TDD and youll be more than capable)

In MMA the best strikers without take down defense always loose to to even mediocre grapplers, grappling is the strongest SINGLE art 1v1. Theres no way around being a mixed martial artist anymore. Bruce Lee started all this and the Gracies advanced things a little as of late.


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## Argus (Sep 11, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> Theres no other way than to do some grappling yourself, so you know what they are trying to do, and have some ability to defend/attack with grappling yourself. (mix this with what Tai Chi has for TDD and youll be more than capable)



Agree with this.



Towel Snapper said:


> In MMA the best strikers without take down defense always loose to to even mediocre grapplers, grappling is the strongest SINGLE art 1v1. Theres no way around being a mixed martial artist anymore. Bruce Lee started all this and the Gracies advanced things a little as of late.



Don't _quite_ agree with this.

The general approach I see in MMA, and I may be over generalizing, is to counter BJJ with BJJ, and accept grappling when it happens. Of course, some fighters prefer to stay on their feet, but not nearly enough work goes into learning to avoid the ground, or grappling in general. Most TMA's are capable of defending against grapplers, but only if you do as the OP and actually practice against it and learn to apply your art. Cross training, not for the sake of fighting fire with fire, but in order to learn how fire works, is a good idea, though.


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2014)

Argus said:


> \
> The general approach I see in MMA, and I may be over generalizing, is to counter BJJ with BJJ, and accept grappling when it happens. Of course, some fighters prefer to stay on their feet, but not nearly enough work goes into learning to avoid the ground, or grappling in general. Most TMA's are capable of defending against grapplers, but only if you do as the OP and actually practice against it and learn to apply your art. Cross training, not for the sake of fighting fire with fire, but in order to learn how fire works, is a good idea, though.


In MMA, the best anti-grapplers are solid grapplers.  The quintessential example of this was Chuck Liddell.  An excellent wrestler who used his skill as a wrestler to avoid the ground.  The best way to stay on your feet to take advantage of your striking is to be a skilled grappler.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> What is your methodology or school of thought when fighting/sparring a grappler?
> 
> One which is popular, however not very practical in sparring do to risk of injury, is to strike the back of the neck and head with elbow or hand. Another is to raise your knee into there face. Both aggressive and not always going to work.
> 
> ...




Use grappling but be better at it.


Was that some kind of a trick question?


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

Argus said:


> Agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not really. There are very few submissions pulled off these days. Is is more countering bjj with mma.


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## jezr74 (Sep 11, 2014)

Can we all handle three of these type of threads in seven days?


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

colemcm said:


> Kind of like Mifune Kyuzo in this clip. Keep an eye on how he keeps his weight sunk and doesn't fight against his opponent's force. (This is a demonstration and is far less chaotic than it will be.)



I have done judo for about three weeks and I am comboing throws. Why isn't this guy?


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## jezr74 (Sep 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Is is more countering bjj with mma.



What do you mean?


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Not really. There are very few submissions pulled off these days. Is is more countering bjj with mma.


What?  I don't know about that.  Armbars are tough when you're sweaty, but there are plenty of chokes.  Head/arm chokes and RNCs are routine.  Ground and pound sets up the choke as often as it results in a KO.  Triangles aren't uncommon, nor are heel hooks.  These are all techniques that aren't severely hamstrung by sweat, and can actually be easier to lock in with less friction.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Fair enough, I should have made it clear I was being more general. Though the examples I gave were specific to a single leg or double leg, just in general shooting at my legs, my initial intent was a general method.
> 
> I completely agree and fully understand there is not a "one size fits all" which is of course is true for any potential confrontation being it good sportsmanship for competition or sparing. or a street conflict. My main thing was to get some ideas and thoughts on general methods. Such as have been stated "avoidance" "don't fight them at there specialty" etc.
> 
> ...




Then do striking.it won't kill the jits guys. And will give you something to bring to the table.

Otherwise I did a thread on it.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/17-general-martial-arts-talk/115217-out-fighting-why-important.html


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Can we all handle three of these type of threads in seven days?


Don't feel obligated to participate, if it's too much for you.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

Steve said:


> What?  I don't know about that.  Armbars are tough when you're sweaty, but there are plenty of chokes.  Head/arm chokes and RNCs are routine.  Ground and pound sets up the choke as often as it results in a KO.  Triangles aren't uncommon, nor are heel hooks.  These are all techniques that aren't severely hamstrung by sweat, and can actually be easier to lock in with less friction.



There were two non choke submissions in the ufc this year aparently. Becoming less and less as peoples submission defence increases.

Been a few more now looks like. But still downward trend.
http://www.mma121.com/2014-ufc-mma-submission-statistics/


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> What do you mean?



Bjj is traditionally a bottom game that uses grappling and submissions to negate striking.

Mma is a top game that uses grappling and striking to negate submissions. Wrestling is being used more these days.


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## jezr74 (Sep 11, 2014)

Steve said:


> Don't feel obligated to participate, if it's too much for you.



Someone needs to represent the lower ranks.


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Someone needs to represent the lower ranks.



Well. Make sure you stretch and rest if you need it.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Bjj is traditionally a bottom game that uses grappling and submissions to negate striking.
> 
> Mma is a top game that uses grappling and striking to negate submissions. Wrestling is being used more these days.



?? BJJ is not traditionally a bottom game, although some of the modern sport players have turned it into such. Classic traditional BJJ doctrine has always been that being on top is better. The guard is just an equalizer for when the other guy manages to get on top.


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## Steve (Sep 12, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> ?? BJJ is not traditionally a bottom game, although some of the modern sport players have turned it into such. Classic traditional BJJ doctrine has always been that being on top is better. The guard is just an equalizer for when the other guy manages to get on top.



The hierarchy remains top mount, top knee on belly, top side control, top half guard, guard, bottom half guard, bottom side control, bottom knee on bell, bottom mount.

Guard is considered a neutral position, not an advantageous one. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 12, 2014)

Steve said:


> The hierarchy remains top mount, top knee on belly, top side control, top half guard, guard, bottom half guard, bottom side control, bottom knee on bell, bottom mount.
> 
> Guard is considered a neutral position, not an advantageous one.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Pretty much, except I would say that in a real fight (with strikes) top of guard still has a bit of an edge. Bottom of guard is as close to neutral as you are going to get from the bottom but it's still not completely equal.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 12, 2014)

I would agree with that as well Tony!


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## donnaTKD (Sep 12, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> What is your methodology or school of thought when fighting/sparring a grappler?
> 
> One which is popular, however not very practical in sparring do to risk of injury, is to strike the back of the neck and head with elbow or hand. Another is to raise your knee into there face. Both aggressive and not always going to work.
> 
> ...



i wait for them to make first move - cos my first move is always a stright knee down the middle  either he's made of stern stuff or he's gunna go down before he's got a full grip oon my legs 

if he goes for my shoulders then i might try a hip throw or a drag past with a reverse elbow and add a trip into the mix 

if he thinks that he'd like to kick me then that's easy enough - catch it then throw it across his body and kick to the head 

 drag past reverse elbow, spinning knee.


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## Steve (Sep 12, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Pretty much, except I would say that in a real fight (with strikes) top of guard still has a bit of an edge. Bottom of guard is as close to neutral as you are going to get from the bottom but it's still not completely equal.



I get that.   Either way, bottom guard isn't considered a dominant position. It is, at best, neutral.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Argus (Sep 12, 2014)

Steve said:


> In MMA, the best anti-grapplers are solid grapplers.  The quintessential example of this was Chuck Liddell.  An excellent wrestler who used his skill as a wrestler to avoid the ground.  The best way to stay on your feet to take advantage of your striking is to be a skilled grappler.



Some day I'll make it out to a BJJ school so that I'll know what I'm talking about whenever "grappling" or "the ground" comes up 

I'm very interested to hear from grapplers how best to counter grappling, though. When you say "the best way to take advantage of striking is to be a skilled grappler," what do you mean, exactly?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 12, 2014)

Argus said:


> When you say "the best way to take advantage of striking is to be a skilled grappler," what do you mean, exactly?



If you are fighting a grappler and you lack grappling skills of your own, you have to be very, very careful about how you strike. If you throw a kick or a really committed punch or any kind of extended combination then the grappler can use that against you to clinch and take you down. This greatly reduces the effectiveness of your strikes.

On the other hand, if you have good clinch and takedown defense then you can freely use your full striking arsenal without worrying that you will end up in a bad situation. Even better, when the grappler tries to lead with his own attacks you can stuff his takedown attempts and make him pay with some solid strikes. Now he's the one who has to be afraid of committing to his attacks.

Of course, what's best is to have solid offensive and defensive skills in both the striking and grappling ranges. That way there is no safe zone for your opponent at any range.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> ?? BJJ is not traditionally a bottom game, although some of the modern sport players have turned it into such. Classic traditional BJJ doctrine has always been that being on top is better. The guard is just an equalizer for when the other guy manages to get on top.



Would you say the bjj top game is as comprehensive as say a wrestling top game?


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2014)

Argus said:


> Some day I'll make it out to a BJJ school so that I'll know what I'm talking about whenever "grappling" or "the ground" comes up
> 
> I'm very interested to hear from grapplers how best to counter grappling, though. When you say "the best way to take advantage of striking is to be a skilled grappler," what do you mean, exactly?



Well it is the other half of grappling. 

The not getting taken down bit


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2014)

Argus said:


> When you say "the best way to take advantage of striking is to be a skilled grappler," what do you mean, exactly?





Tony Dismukes said:


> If you throw a kick or a really committed punch or any kind of extended combination then the grappler can use that against you to clinch and take you down. This greatly reduces the effectiveness of your strikes.


 
It's much 

- easier for a grappler to reduce a striker's striking skill effectiveness. 
- harder for a striker to reduce a grappler's grappling skill effectiveness.

When a striker also cross trains grappling, his striking strategy will be changed as well. 

For a 

- "pure" striker, a punch is just a punch. 
- "cross trained" striker, a punch is more than just a punch. Old saying said, "When you miss your punch, you should never pull your hand back empty". A grappler's punch can be like a hook that will pull back anything that he can touch in order to help him to obtain his "clinch".

A grappler can turn his striking arms into a hook. That hook may help a grappler a great deal, but it may not help a striker very much.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Would you say the bjj top game is as comprehensive as say a wrestling top game?



In some ways more comprehensive, but that's not really what you're asking.

Wrestlers are (on average) better at the art of actually staying on top. I'd say that has more to do with the time they spend training it and their phenomenal physical conditioning than with having more techniques for the position. They also tend to be better at takedowns, which means they get to start out on top against most people.

BJJers have better submission and guard passing skills from the top, but they usually aren't as good with takedowns as the wrestlers, so  a wrestling vs BJJ match will usually end up with the BJJ guy on his back. That doesn't mean the BJJer wants to be on his back, just that the wrestler is better at getting the top position. The BJJ player would prefer to be on top, and against someone who doesn't have superior wrestling skills he will usually be able to get there.


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## drop bear (Sep 12, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In some ways more comprehensive, but that's not really what you're asking.
> 
> Wrestlers are (on average) better at the art of actually staying on top. I'd say that has more to do with the time they spend training it and their phenomenal physical conditioning than with having more techniques for the position. They also tend to be better at takedowns, which means they get to start out on top against most people.
> 
> BJJers have better submission and guard passing skills from the top, but they usually aren't as good with takedowns as the wrestlers, so  a wrestling vs BJJ match will usually end up with the BJJ guy on his back. That doesn't mean the BJJer wants to be on his back, just that the wrestler is better at getting the top position. The BJJ player would prefer to be on top, and against someone who doesn't have superior wrestling skills he will usually be able to get there.




So less comprehensive top game. I mean the guy who gets on top has the better top game.


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## Argus (Sep 13, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you are fighting a grappler and you lack grappling skills of your own, you have to be very, very careful about how you strike. If you throw a kick or a really committed punch or any kind of extended combination then the grappler can use that against you to clinch and take you down. This greatly reduces the effectiveness of your strikes.
> 
> On the other hand, if you have good clinch and takedown defense then you can freely use your full striking arsenal without worrying that you will end up in a bad situation. Even better, when the grappler tries to lead with his own attacks you can stuff his takedown attempts and make him pay with some solid strikes. Now he's the one who has to be afraid of committing to his attacks.
> 
> Of course, what's best is to have solid offensive and defensive skills in both the striking and grappling ranges. That way there is no safe zone for your opponent at any range.



I see. So, you are advocating "being familiar" with grappling methodology, and having some grappling to fall back on, but not necessarily using grappling in response?

I guess I'm wondering what constitutes "grappling skills," though. The line gets a little blurry with some arts like WC or (I would presume even more so) Taiji, as we're quite familiar with controlling limbs, being grabbed, pulled, pushed, put in the occasional lock, and all manner of things. Granted, take-downs, chokes, and ground fighting is all foreign to us, and certainly warrants study.

In my _very_ limited experience training with grapplers (by which I mean one Judoka and a few amatures), I found the most important thing to be simply not letting them get underneath you, and keeping your arms and elbows in tight and close to the center so that you can avoid winding up in a clinch. Getting offline, and controlling the opponent's head/neck when possible met with good results for me. I try to retain my normal WC structure, but sink lower and take care that a leg isn't grabbed. 

Does this jive with the experience of those of you who are, or have trained with competent grapplers?


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## Steve (Sep 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Would you say the bjj top game is as comprehensive as say a wrestling top game?


Freestyle wrestling?  Folk wrestling?  Catch wrestling?  If you're referring to freestyle wrestling, a million times yes.   What wrestlers typically bring to BJJ (ie, white belt in BJJ/experienced freestyle wrestler) is excellent wrestling take downs, excellent shoulder pressure on top, great body awareness and ability to move/transition well on top, solid competitive spirit and work ethic and a lot of bad habits.   Wrestling is an excellent foundation for BJJ and can give someone a huge head start in many ways.


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## Steve (Sep 13, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In some ways more comprehensive, but that's not really what you're asking.
> 
> Wrestlers are (on average) better at the art of actually staying on top. I'd say that has more to do with the time they spend training it and their phenomenal physical conditioning than with having more techniques for the position. They also tend to be better at takedowns, which means they get to start out on top against most people.
> 
> BJJers have better submission and guard passing skills from the top, but they usually aren't as good with takedowns as the wrestlers, so  a wrestling vs BJJ match will usually end up with the BJJ guy on his back. That doesn't mean the BJJer wants to be on his back, just that the wrestler is better at getting the top position. The BJJ player would prefer to be on top, and against someone who doesn't have superior wrestling skills he will usually be able to get there.


Wrestlers all start off with heavy shoulders and light hips, making them very easy to sweep.  This is particularly true in the transitions.  They settle into positions very heavy, and they tend to move very fluidly, but their hips tend to get very high as they sacrifice pressure in favor of speed and athleticism.  So, sweeping on the transitions is typically pretty easy, until they learn some BJJ.  

So, I'd say I agree that a wrestler may start on top, but until that wrestler ALSO has BJJ, they won't stay there long.


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## Steve (Sep 13, 2014)

Argus said:


> Some day I'll make it out to a BJJ school so that I'll know what I'm talking about whenever "grappling" or "the ground" comes up
> 
> I'm very interested to hear from grapplers how best to counter grappling, though. When you say "the best way to take advantage of striking is to be a skilled grappler," what do you mean, exactly?


I think this was answered very well already, but I'll just echo what was said.  What I was referring to is your ability to defend the takedown, and if taken down, your ability to regain your feet.  Defending the takedown and returning to standing from the ground are both skills learned by training in a legit grappling style.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So less comprehensive top game. I mean the guy who gets on top has the better top game.



Nope, that's not what comprehensive means.

BJJ top game: takedowns, guard passes, controlling top position, submitting opponent from top
Wrestling top game: takedowns, controlling top position

BJJ bottom game: protecting self while on bottom, escaping/reversing from bottom, submitting opponent from bottom
Wrestling bottom game: escaping/reversing from bottom

Wrestlers don't have a more c_omprehensive t_op game, they have a more _specialized _top game. Naturally they're better within the limits of their specialization. On the other hand, who is more likely to pass your guard or submit you when they're on top - a wrestler or BJJ player?

I'm not arguing about who has the _better _top game, mind you. That would depend on the question, better for what?


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## Stonebrow (Sep 22, 2014)

That sounds about right.  A grappler needs to get underneath you to get any leverage on you.  Wrestling 101:  lower your center of gravity, shoot.


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## drop bear (Sep 22, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nope, that's not what comprehensive means.
> 
> BJJ top game: takedowns, guard passes, controlling top position, submitting opponent from top
> Wrestling top game: takedowns, controlling top position
> ...




OK we will go with better then. And better for finishing on top while engaged in a grapple.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 22, 2014)

Steve said:


> Wrestlers all start off with heavy shoulders and light hips, making them very easy to sweep.  This is particularly true in the transitions.  They settle into positions very heavy, and they tend to move very fluidly, but their hips tend to get very high as they sacrifice pressure in favor of speed and athleticism.  So, sweeping on the transitions is typically pretty easy, until they learn some BJJ.
> 
> So, I'd say I agree that a wrestler may start on top, but until that wrestler ALSO has BJJ, they won't stay there long.



This is my experience as well working with collegiate level wrestlers in BJJ.  I would also add that it was easy to sweep them while they are training with a Gi but in No-Gi it was substantially harder but was still doable.  However, after they learn a bit say after a month or so the collegiate level wrestlers I worked with became a bear to deal with.


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## Buka (Sep 22, 2014)

I know we all live in different parts of the world, so I don't know what's readily available in a lot of places, but in today's day and age, grappling, in one form or another, is all over the place. Especially compared to say, ten years ago. I think anyone in a striking art, who's serious about their art and/or loves training, and is concerned about practical self defense for themselves and any one they might teach, should spend some time training in a ground art, even if it's for only a few months. Shouldn't be too hard to find some place. I think you'll love it and it can only make your own overall game better. And it can only make you a better instructor in what you already do. 

And it's really fun.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK we will go with better then. And better for finishing on top while engaged in a grapple.



If by "finishing on top" you mean ending up and staying on top as opposed to finishing with a submission, then I agree.


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## Hanzou (Sep 22, 2014)

Buka said:


> I know we all live in different parts of the world, so I don't know what's readily available in a lot of places, but in today's day and age, grappling, in one form or another, is all over the place. Especially compared to say, ten years ago. I think anyone in a striking art, who's serious about their art and/or loves training, and is concerned about practical self defense for themselves and any one they might teach, should spend some time training in a ground art, even if it's for only a few months. Shouldn't be too hard to find some place. I think you'll love it and it can only make your own overall game better. And it can only make you a better instructor in what you already do.
> 
> And it's really fun.



I second that. 

Some of the takedown defenses coming out of the striking arts are laughably bad.


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## Buka (Sep 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I second that.
> 
> Some of the takedown defenses coming out of the striking arts are laughably bad.



To me, take down defenses have to come out of grappling arts. It seems like a no brainer to me, but that might be because my art of American Karate didn't have any take down defenses. (someone else's American Karate might, mine didn't) 

I'll say one thing, take down defense in the UFC sure has come a long way. I really love watching someone with good take down defense. Must be so damn frustrating trying to take a guy down and not be able to do it.


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## drop bear (Sep 22, 2014)

Buka said:


> To me, take down defenses have to come out of grappling arts. It seems like a no brainer to me, but that might be because my art of American Karate didn't have any take down defenses. (someone else's American Karate might, mine didn't)
> 
> I'll say one thing, take down defense in the UFC sure has come a long way. I really love watching someone with good take down defense. Must be so damn frustrating trying to take a guy down and not be able to do it.



You go until they are down.
What to Expect from Russia - Flowrestling


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 22, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> One I was contemplating is to step back and turn, pulling them past.



What you have stated is a very important grappling art principle. In CMA, it's called "to lead your opponent into the emptiness".

 This principle can be explained as simple as:

- move out of your opponent's moving path (step back and turn), 
- redirect his force vector (pulling), and
- give him plenty of space to fall (pass)".


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## Hanzou (Sep 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You go until they are down.
> What to Expect from Russia - Flowrestling



That's more like it.


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