# Robber with a sawed off shotgun



## Deaf Smith (Jun 4, 2010)

Now this guy had a REAL sawed off shotgun.

But notice how he handles it. I feel there were many opportunities to either draw on him or take it away from him H2H.

http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12590134

Watch the 37 second version. No commercials or anything.

Oh, update... the caught the guy. A Murry something or other. 20 years old.

Deaf


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## MA-Caver (Jun 4, 2010)

Well if you want to play hero and argue with someone carrying a double barrel sawed off gun and try to disarm them ... I'll send prayers to your family. You just don't do it. I wouldn't have tried it. The clerk did well to stay calm and give the guy what he wanted. 
The robber was calm and efficient and VERY confident (as the police noted in the long version of the video). The police noted also the suspect did not have his finger on the trigger (said that most of the time)... this guy was carrying the gun but apparently would've been ready to be "more threatening" if need be. But the clerk just did what the guy wanted... (did they know each other maybe?)...
Going for something like that in a H2H situation would've been for the well trained and those in disregard of their own lives. 
Sorry but I think trying to jump the guy or take his weapon away from him would've been foolish. 

:asian:


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 5, 2010)

You guys notice he carried the gun by the receiver part of the time and not with his hand on the grip? Hard to fire the gun that way..

Bit of a post script...

http://www.kltv.com/global/story.asp?s=12595893
UPDATE 04:15 PM 06/04/10 - Longview Police Detectives have made an arrest in the June 3rd robbery of the EZ Mart convenience store at 1501 Pine Tree Road.

Joshua Todd Murray, 20, of Longview, was arrested early Thursday afternoon pursuant to an arrest warrant issued by Judge David Brabham of the 188th District Court.

As of this time, Murray has not been charged with the second EZ Mart robbery at the same location that occurred on June 4th, but additional charges are likely.

Murray's birthday is in five days, June 9th.
***
And if the shotgun IS a real one and IS sawed off, that's a Federal Crime!

And we can say, "happy birthday" to him in jail for years to come!

Deaf


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## elder999 (Jun 5, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> You guys notice he carried the gun by the receiver part of the time and not with his hand on the grip? Hard to fire the gun that way..


 
Yeah, I noticed. So?

Ever had a gun pointed at you? Ever been menaced by one?

Odds are good, that the clerk reacted like 99% of the populace would, and the only thing he noticed was the _muzzle_, you know-the place where his potential _death_ would emerge from.

I really don't like second guessing these situations from video-who knows what was going through the poor guy's head, or what he saw?Sure, I know what I _might_ have seen, and might have done, based on experience.....then again, I might have done just what the clerk did......


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## tellner (Jun 5, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Ever had a gun pointed at you? Ever been menaced by one?



Yes. It was extremely frightening. But strangely enough my reaction was "If I don't do something I will die." So I did something. I ran.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 5, 2010)

Someone (fairly rich guy) I know (from my forum) shoots skeet. One of his skeet shooting friends had his double barrel shotgun stolen at an event. A couple months later, the police contact him to tell him that they found his gun. The stock and barrel had been sawed off.

...
...

It was a 120K$ bespoke Purdey shotgun.
The owner got his gun back but as you can understand, he wasn't exactly thrilled.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 5, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, I noticed. So?
> 
> Ever had a gun pointed at you? Ever been menaced by one?
> 
> ...


 

The point is with the training and tools available, you have a CHOICE to act or not.

Sometimes your luck just turns to **** and sometimes the *choice* is all you CAN hope to have. 

Reminds me of the quote from "The 13th Warrior": "Luck, often enough, will save a man, if his courage hold". We would like to hope that's true.

That's the single worst thing about trying to help people learn how to defend themselves is that however much you can do, however skilled a teacher you become, however many people you teach, there's always the hard reality that every day, for some people, the night is already lost and there ain't a damnthing you can do but try to prepare those that remain.......


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## elder999 (Jun 5, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> The point is with the training and tools available, you have a CHOICE to act or not....


 
And that is a very valid point, having sort of been there myself. On the other hand, the point of view of a digital security camera is_ extremely_ different from the POV of the clerk. It's an easy one to look at and say. "_See that? He had *lots* of opportunity to resist,_when, in fact, from his POV, there might not have been a damn thing to do (whether there actually was or not.) 

The OP says that he feels there were many opportunities to either draw on him or go h2h, and there were-every second from confrontation to the assailant's withdrawal were probably "opportunities" of one sort or another, but did the clerk have the training to recognize them? Recognizing them, did the clerk have the training to act on them? 
Most importantly-especially since untrained people actually do respond to this situation successfully _every year_-did he have the *will* to respond.

Lastly, of course, it's likely he was doing exactly what his employers told him and trained him to do: complying, alarming and getting a description for the police, right down to his height from the funky scale they have by the door.....


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 5, 2010)

elder999,


When I was about 15 years old, a drunk beside the road shot at my cousin, sister, and myself, while we were in the field by the house coming from fishing (and yes the cops caught them after we ran home and told our parents.)

While in college we had a bugler stealing from the house while my parents were gone now and then (same person and we had a good idea who he was.) So one January, on a bitter cold morning, we hid the cars and waited with the lights out. I had a Colt Agent .38 (yea, a gun nut I was back in college, poor one but still into guns.) J.D. was supposed to go out the back and I go out the front and catch him in the breeze way, which was locked. Well to make a long story short, he did come, J.D. though was on the pot (yes, in the bathroom Brother Murphy has a way with screwing up plans), and the guy came up the driveway, went around back, broken in the locked door, and started to take things.

So I gave the warning, J.D., unnamed, went out the back, and I jumped out the front with my .38. All I could think of saying was, Just stay. Well he looked down the barrel and sure enough he just stayed. Sat down when told to and the Deputy Sherriff came and took him away,

Then in the Virgin Islands, on my honeymoon, in Charlotte, a purse snatcher grabbed this womans purse and ran. My wife shouted and pointed. So I took off my hat and sun glasses and ran after him. A guy in front of him grabbed him in a bear hug just as I caught up and I put a wrist lock on him. We struggled a bit, brought him down, then he tried to get up and we brought him down again. He kept screaming, let go of my hand (yes I hurt him a might with that lock.) A VERY LARGE cop came (they pack Glocks there, BTW), and took him off. My wife found the purse and gave it back to the woman (she was on one of those ship cruises.)


Once, at a disco who the manager was one of our TDK students, a group of would-be thugs would not obey the rules of having t-shirts on (that is no tank tops) and when the manager told them to hit the road they refused. The manager, a very good buddy of mine who was also in TKD, and myself stood baring the way back into the club. Yes we could have had a fight there but the toughs, five of them, decided to leave. My buddy and I, after a few drinks, went home by going out the back door instead of the front. We didnt want to get shot going out that front one!
 

So you see, I have been in a few such things. No sawed off shotgun, no gun play, but I have been in a few. They happen fast but most crooks are not well trained, if at all, and are very preoccupided. They are shocked when someone takes fast action against them.

The key is to look for those openings. The videos of robberies and street fights are very educational in this respect. You can see just how things go down, where it's wise to do nothing, and where there are openings for takng action. And that is what we look for. Not the first opportunity to take action, but good ones.


Deaf


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## elder999 (Jun 5, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> The videos of robberies and street fights are very educational in this respect. You can see just how things go down, where it's wise to do nothing, and where there are openings for takng action. And that is what we look for. Not the first opportunity to take action, but good ones.
> 
> 
> Deaf


 
All I'm saying is that they don't look the same at all: looking at things as they  happened on a monitor screen and looking at them in an 7-11 smock and ballcap......:lfao:


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 5, 2010)

Play the odds.
Giving the guy the $50 and he goes away, (hopefully), or fighting him resulting in possible death of someone. 
Heres the $50.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 5, 2010)

Edit: Never mind.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 6, 2010)

tellner said:


> Yes. It was extremely frightening. But strangely enough my reaction was "If I don't do something I will die." So I did something. I ran.


 
Harder to hit a moving target.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 6, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Play the odds.
> Giving the guy the $50 and he goes away, (hopefully), or fighting him resulting in possible death of someone.
> Heres the $50.


 
That actually isn't the odds......

Give the guy the $50.00 he goes away.
Fight with him and you win
Fight with him he wins, runs away
Fight with him he wins, he shots you or someone else
Give the guy the $50.00 and he shoots you anyway....


For those who think giving the money is a guarantee that he is going to 'play by the rules' and leave you be, I can give you dozens of news stories of cooperative DEAD store clerks.

The reality is that anyone who tells you that cooperating is ALWAYS the right answer is talking from somewhere other than their head.......ask the passengers of the airliners on 9/11.

Sometimes it's the right choice, sometimes it isn't.......what's more confusing is you don't usually know necessarily which situation you're end, so you pays your money and your takes your choice.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 6, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> The point is with the training and tools available, you have a CHOICE to act or not.
> 
> Sometimes your luck just turns to **** and sometimes the *choice* is all you CAN hope to have.
> 
> ...


 
Being trained gives you choices, being armed and trained gives you even more choices.  That's all you can ask in life is a few choies in a bad situation.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 6, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Being trained gives you choices, being armed and trained gives you even more choices. That's all you can ask in life is a few choies in a bad situation.


 
EXACTLY!

And part of the training, to me, is to watch videos such as this and learn how real robbers work, what their flaws are (and strengths), and give yourself options.

As Sun Tzu said, "know your enemy and know yourself".

Tellner did know himself, he ran cause he knew, at the time, he was incapble of putting up a fight (that is not bad tellner, that was  the reality of the moment. Your amygdala knew what you really could do and had no real abilty to study your oppoent, so it said... RUN, which you did.)

The whole point of this thread is to know you enemy better (and I consider thiefs, murders, robbers, rapist, drup pushers, etc..my enemy and the enemy of any peacefull society.

Train well. Know yourself and know your enemy.

Deaf


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## MA-Caver (Jun 6, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> And part of the training, to me, is to watch videos such as this and learn how real robbers work, what their flaws are (and strengths), and give yourself options.
> 
> ...


It is a good thing to see this. Tzu's wisdom reveals itself as always. 

Having lived amongst them for a time I've known them as well as I would ever want to... and I can tell you for certainty... they are ALL unpredictable! 

To apply one robber's technique to another is foolhardy at best. A robber will rarely reveal their intentions or their reasons why they're doing what they're doing. A robber's thoughts run a gamut of paranoia and fear and fear as many of us (should know) causes a person to do things they probably wouldn't normally do. 
How much control does one person have over themselves? It is revealed in their actions but only moment by moment. What they do in one robbery may differ from another, circumstances may change suddenly. 
In this case the robber was unimpeded by the clerk or someone else in the store or someone even walking into the store at that moment when they were behind the counter. If that had happened... would the robber had remained calm and subdue the newcomer or suddenly panic and start shooting? We just DON'T know. 

Train for opportunities yes, train to strike when it presents itself. Train to be calm in the face of danger and threats. But to try and predict from one moment to the next one person to the next... :idunno: dunno if that's even possible.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 6, 2010)

The thing not being considered, and with no sound from the video, we dont know is... what was the robber's attitude?

I'd be less likley to fight back if a guy was like "Look dude, I dont want to hurt you and I wont if you just stay cool and cooperate, k?" than if the guy came in all twitchy and was like "gimmy your money mother ****er, Imma blow you away!"

Right?


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## MA-Caver (Jun 6, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> The thing not being considered, and with no sound from the video, we dont know is... what was the robber's attitude?
> 
> I'd be less likley to fight back if a guy was like "Look dude, I dont want to hurt you and I wont if you just stay cool and cooperate, k?" than if the guy came in all twitchy and was like "gimmy your money mother ****er, Imma blow you away!"
> 
> Right?


Well the police did note the calm demeanor of the robber as he approached and escorted the clerk into the store, noting him as very calm and judging him to be very dangerous. Full of resolve and determination to get in and get out with what he wanted. 
The store had been robbed previously before and it seems that the clerk's attitude was... "well, here we go again...sigh!" If it was him that was robbed before then he knew the best way to go was to just do what was asked and give no crap on the situation. Fortunately for him the whole thing was over in less than a few minutes.


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## Bikewr (Jun 11, 2010)

Some years ago, one of those TV "video of the week" type shows had footage of an armed robbery with a female suspect carrying a full-sized pump shotgun.
The victim establishment was a typical 7-11 type store, and the woman is sort of wandering around the store, occasionally pointing the weapon at the clerks, occasionally putting it under her arm as she adds items to her bag....

She's so incompetent that eventually one of the clerks gets disgusted and simply takes the shotgun away from her and she flees....

Another one is "supposedly" true....  A robber walks into a tough downtown bar with a double sawed-off and announces a holdup.  To get everyone's attention, he fires a round into the ceiling.    It's a tough bar... No one much pays him any mind.    So....He fires the second one....
They find him in the alley, severely beaten and minus his weapon.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 28, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> Well the police did note the calm demeanor of the robber as he approached and escorted the clerk into the store, noting him as very calm and judging him to be very dangerous. Full of resolve and determination to get in and get out with what he wanted.
> The store had been robbed previously before and it seems that the clerk's attitude was... "well, here we go again...sigh!" If it was him that was robbed before then he knew the best way to go was to just do what was asked and give no crap on the situation. Fortunately for him the whole thing was over in less than a few minutes.


 
There is some truth to that, but one should make clear that visual aggitation is a sign defensive aggression and poorly trained and experienced predatory aggression.........which displays itself as physical autonomic arousal.

Effective predatory aggression shows no signs of physical arousal..........the most dangerous people are the ones who display absolutely zero arousal..........even as they murder you!

One should examine the case of the infamous, and now defunct, founder of the Crips street gang, Stanley 'Tookie' Williams, and his experience with a store clerk.....



> Transcripts show that next Coward and Sims followed Williams and Darryl to the 7-Eleven market located at 10437 Whittier Boulevard, in Whittier, California. The store clerk, twenty-six year old Albert Lewis Owens, was sweeping the store at 7:42 p.m. in the parking lot. When Darryl and Sims entered the 7-Eleven, Owens put the broom and dustpan he was using on the hood of his car and followed them into the store. Williams and Coward then followed Owens into the store. Court records show that as Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens, pulled the shotgun from under his jacket and told Owens to "shut up and keep walking."[4]
> While pointing the shotgun at Owens&#8217; back, Williams directed him to a back storage room and ordered him to lie down. Coward said that he next heard the sound of a round being chambered into the shotgun. He then heard a shot and glass breaking, followed by two more shots. Records show that he shot out a security monitor and then killed Owens, shooting him twice in the back at point blank range as he lay prone on the storage room floor.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams#Botched_robbery


 
Complete calm on the part of the suspect, complete compliance on the part of the victim........


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 28, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Complete calm on the part of the suspect, complete compliance on the part of the victim........


 
And that is why whenever you are threatend with a weapon you just can't guarantee the robber isn't a cold blooded killer. So you are in fear of your life.

Deaf


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 28, 2010)

Well, it's as Bill Mattocks would (correctly) say--"You pays your money and you takes your chances".

But training can perhaps widen your field of vision as to what those chances and choices are.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 29, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> And that is why whenever you are threatend with a weapon you just can't guarantee the robber isn't a cold blooded killer. So you are in fear of your life.
> 
> Deaf


 
Yep! The first clue you get that they aren't nice people is that they showed up armed with ill intent......that's good enough for me!


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## Shin71 (Sep 4, 2010)

Body language seemed to indicated that he wasn't going to frag anyone unless I am missing something but maybe there were opportunities to attempt to engage him but giving him a small amount of cash is a minor thing to do.   You should be ready to make a move and train that way but be controlled enough to ride it out as well, like the clerk did.

I think the clerk did ok.


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