# Dan Numbers - do they really matter?



## Makalakumu

27145
20420
1815
Hwang Kee

Those are dan numbers of my teacher, my teacher's teacher, and my teacher's teacher's teacher, all of the way back to the grand old man himself.  We had to memorize these numbers as part of my teacher's dojang when we belonged to the USSBDMDK Federation.  

This was supposed to be a way of determining seniority among dans, but it has come to my attention that sets of low dan number may have been set aside and given for political reason.  This would seem to undermine the system.

So, how much do these matter?  Does your organization use them?  Why or why not?


----------



## DMcHenry

Good question.  I believe it depends on the organization.  Some make a very big deal of it, some don't.  My current organization even numbers certificates, but it is more of a certificate number than a dan number, but does show rank and seniority but I've never heard it used for that.

Personally, I could care less.  I have seen some schools who put their number right on their belts to make sure everyone knows where they stand.  To each his own.


----------



## EMST930

Yes, dan numbers are extremely confusing.  Not only were pockets of numbers set aside as you mentioned, but there is also the dilemma of preserving some type of order when schools split from an organization and/or join another.  In our schools we have students with dan numbers from the US Federation, some with dan numbers from when we were with Kang Uk Lee, etc.  We have now adopted a system using the year, which we find to be easier.  This way you can identify what year the person tested for first dan, and then where they fell in that year (spring or fall test.)  

When we get together for large testings, clinics, tournaments etc. where we have to line up with others that we may not know well, we use the dan numbers for students of equal rank to figure out where they fall in the line.  They are not emphasized much beyond that, other than the fact you should memorize your own dan number.  

While we stick to the tradition of rank/dan number determining the line, it does not override the feeling of respect for those that have been around since the "old days" or return after a long absence.  For instance, the lineup of the seniors in one of our recent classes was as follows:

6th dan--started training at our school in 1987
4th dan--started training ...1979
4th dan (me)--started training...1987
3rd dan--started training...1980
2nd dan--started training...1980 (just returned from 18 year absence)

As you can see even though I have now passed the 3rd and 2nd dan in line, the fact remains that they started training while I was still in diapers, and therefore are given clear respect regardless of rank/dan number.  Hope that helps...


----------



## Makalakumu

Interesting replies.  I don't have a dan number because my teacher decided to pull his dojang out of the Federation right before my dan test.  It's not really that big of a deal with most things and I can visit most SBD dojangs and people will at least recognize that I am a black belt and I'm okay with that.


----------



## DMcHenry

Numbers are a funny thing, I see them everywhere.  In my first TKD dojang, I was #478B, my TSD number is 15726 in my previous org, now S-7003.  I have various ohter numbers in TKD, HKD, KKW, etc certs.

I enjoy riding motorcycles.  I have a Vulcan (1600 Nomad) and belong to the Vulcan Riders and Owners Club (VROC), where I am #880, in other clubs like Southern Cruisers I have a nuber #120051, in the GCVROC #20, Rolling Blunder #116, KawaNOW #673, Dark Side #273, among others and even have a "Wet Butt Riders Association" #.

Everyone likes their numbers.  Generally, the lower the number, the more experienced you are and other members know that.  It can give you some credibility that you know what you're talking about.

Again, the above is not always true.  Sometimes you don't always join an organization as a novice, but after you already had many years of experience in training (or riding).  For instance, I didn't receive my TSD Dan bon till after I was already 4th dan, but did pretty much get my VROC number soon after buying my first Vulcan.  So sometime it tells a story, sometimes not.


----------



## dancingalone

These dan numbers cannot be universal across all MDK/TSD/SBD groups are they?  Meaning if you are a newly minted dan today well after the MDK split, your # if you are given one will mean nothing to HC Hwang's group.  Correct?


----------



## DMcHenry

Correct, my number was with Jae-joon Kim who was Dan #38 (World Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Federation) and now with James Saffold Dan #14489 (American Kwan Tang Soo Do Federation).  They both received their numbers from GM Hwang Kee, but after JJ Kim split off he continued with his own numbers.

My number with my current organization (USKMAF) has it's own numbering scheme, showing art, rank and sequential number order.  

Personally, I have never been a member of the USSBD(TSD)MDKF.


----------



## EMST930

That's why the year/number system has worked well for us.  Someone like you that doesn't have a dan number can still take a spot in our line using the year you tested.  Rank and dan numbers, while serving a purpose, cannot represent everything and that's why we don't make a huge deal out of them.  They are tools that help us maintain order and quickly line up while showing respect for those who came before us.


----------



## chrispillertkd

EMST930 said:


> While we stick to the tradition of rank/dan number determining the line, it does not override the feeling of respect for those that have been around since the "old days" or return after a long absence. For instance, the lineup of the seniors in one of our recent classes was as follows:
> 
> 6th dan--started training at our school in 1987
> 4th dan--started training ...1979
> 4th dan (me)--started training...1987
> 3rd dan--started training...1980
> 2nd dan--started training...1980 (just returned from 18 year absence)
> 
> As you can see even though I have now passed the 3rd and 2nd dan in line, the fact remains that they started training while I was still in diapers, and therefore are given clear respect regardless of rank/dan number. Hope that helps...


 
While my comment may (or may not) be getting a bit off track of the original post the sentiment quoted above is a great one. I wish it was more common in the martial arts. 

Just because someone starts before you in a style doesn't mean they will always be senior to you in rank. In a system with a good dose of Neo-Confucianism like Taekwon-Do, and I imagine Tang Soo Do given its Korean heritage, recognizing that someone can be senior to you even if you technically outrank them is important. It's just good manners, really, to be at least somewhat deferential to a person who was around years before you, even if you now outrank them. 

I've seen plenty of people _not_ act that way and find it very annoying. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## EMST930

> While my comment may (or may not) be getting a bit off track of the  original post the sentiment quoted above is a great one. I wish it was  more common in the martial arts.


Thanks for your post.  I guess I'm lucky that I couldn't imagine it any other way.

If you relate it back to dan numbers, you could have two practitioners of equal rank separated by one dan number.  Let's consider technical ability to be equal.  If the junior one is an instructor, by nature of teaching he will ask a lot more questions about the how and the why we do what we do.  Teaching crystallizes your understanding and makes you better all around.
Even if the two practitioners have the same rank and same technical ability, the one that teaches will probably have more overall knowledge about everything from history, application, etc.  My instructor has always told me that it is one thing to be a great technician, but an entirely other thing to reproduce students over the long term that are better than you.  The high level of respect goes to those that can help preserve our art by doing so.  So two people with the same rank separated by one dan number can be at very different points along their individual journey in the martial arts.  And that's apples to apples within the same school!


----------



## MBuzzy

dancingalone said:


> These dan numbers cannot be universal across all MDK/TSD/SBD groups are they? Meaning if you are a newly minted dan today well after the MDK split, your # if you are given one will mean nothing to HC Hwang's group. Correct?


 
Not exactly.  It depends on the organization.  Within the TSD community, the US Soo Bahk Do Federation is still on the numberng system that started with GM Hwang Kee.  My dan number is 44922 in that lineage.  I am still a member of the USSBDF and keep my membership up, they are still on that original numbering system.

Basically your number ONLY means something within your organization.  After the MDK split and all of the senior masters started leaving (basically since Hwang Kee died), those Dan #'s don't mean nearly as much to those who have left....but there was a time when across TSD orgs, a Dan Bon from the SBD Fed meant something.


----------



## Dana

I would say that the most "senior masters" left long before Hwang Kee passed away.  Many started their own organizations and dan bon systems once they left.  As others have said, some are more impressed with their numbers than others and yes, many organizations set aside numbers to accommodate senior or exceptional (or political) members who joined later.  Some seem to hold their numbers to be more important than their training....

D


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil

Dan-Bon...
When KJN Hwang Kee established the Moo Duk Kwan he was very organized. He saw importance in a numerical record of who was promoted to Chodan at what time. As stated earlier, GM Jae Jun Kim was Pin # 38, my instructor, C.I. Kim is Pin #475. My number is 22985 (under U.S. Tang Soo Do Fed./Soo Bahk Do).

When I joined the U.S. Tang Soo Do Federation in November, 1983 I had earned my Eedan under another association prior to that time. I was put through a "Dan Evaluation Testing" under Master Russ Hanke and issued my Pin # by KJN Hwang Kee via GM H.C. Hwang.

So now we have to ask; if I was issued the Pin # 22985 as an Eedan, is the guy that received the Pin# 22984 as a Chodan my senior because his number is senior to mine? I think not...

All that Dan-Bon  does is record when you received your first Dan rank as a member of a given Organization/Association/Federation. Don-Bon does NOT track a member through his/her training and reflect their progress or lack there of.

More of those holding low numbers dropped out at low ranks. If they return to training after years off, should they be considered senior to those who never stopped and surpassed them in knowledge, ability and belt rank? I think not...

When GM Jae Jun Kim broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan/Soo Bahk Do and established the "American Moo Duk Kwan Association" he started his Dan-Bon from the same number that the Federation was assigning at that time. He added the letter "A" to the number to signify America, and to make the number unique to his association. This caused confusion from time to time, as members of his association would come face to face with Federation members with the same number. Who really owned that Pin #? Who would really be senior to who? These were issues that had to be dealt with.

At my grand opening weekend in 2007 GM Andy Ah Po, GM Charles Ferraro and GM Michael March were all present.  These three GM's and I were sitting at a local eatery having lunch. Michael March was asked by Andy Ah Po; what is your Dan-Bon. Michael March responded with a number that was senior to GM Ah Po's. This was curious to GM Ah Po till it was understood that there was an "A" in Michael March's number. There was no way that Michael March was senior to Andy Ah Po, but at first glance... hearing the number, the seniority was in question.

For me, it is more important to see what the practitioner has done "SINCE" he/she was promoted to Dan ranking then when he/she received it.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil

On another note,,,

Craig,
Imagine this. Your Dan-Bon is 44922!!!

What would it have been if we lived in a perfect world and all of the Tang Soo Do practitioners would have stayed true to Hwang Kee and never left the Federation?

How many practitioners of Tang Soo Do are there in the world that have reached Dan-Ranking?

What would your number have been if we were truly all together in "ONE" lineage?

I wonder...


----------



## Drac

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> For me, it is more important to see what the practitioner has done "SINCE" he/she was promoted to Dan ranking then when he/she received it.


 
Well said Sir..


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I do not think that I ever even looked at my ITF Dan numbers.  Really they are meaningless and not why I pursue my training!


----------



## MBuzzy

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> On another note,,,
> 
> Craig,
> Imagine this. Your Dan-Bon is 44922!!!
> 
> What would it have been if we lived in a perfect world and all of the Tang Soo Do practitioners would have stayed true to Hwang Kee and never left the Federation?
> 
> How many practitioners of Tang Soo Do are there in the world that have reached Dan-Ranking?
> 
> What would your number have been if we were truly all together in "ONE" lineage?
> 
> I wonder...


 
I imagine that if that had happened, my pin would be AT LEAST 6 digits.  What if all of those people still practiced??  Your # would not be as impressive if so many people didn't drop out.  As it stands, I am still VERY junior - but I agree with you.  The problem is that while I'm deployed or while I am in a forced hiatus due to my station....I keep getting old, my dan bon keeps getting older, but my skill level actually DECREASES.  This is not fair to me OR those who have come after me once I can start to train again.


----------



## kbarrett

If you belong to an association yes if you don't then no, it's that age old question dose rank really mean anything to some it dose to other it doesn't it all depends.

Ken


----------



## Moto9000

Hello fellow martial artists!

I am doing some research and am quite interested in this topic. I learned Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from a grand master from Korea, and received a dan # on my belt along with a Kukkiwon # on my certificate. My dan number is low on my belt but a much higher number on my Kukkiwon certificate obviously. As I understand, after the Moo Duk Kwan/KTA split, no one in Korea was allowed to issue dans except the Kukkiwon.

Does anyone have more information about this? I understand Hwang Kee continued to issue dans himself outside of the Kukkiwon. Trying to learn more about the Moo Duk Kwan as I particularly love the style even though I have also learned the Olympic/Kukkiwon style. Grand Master Kang Uk Lee has no information about dan #s in his Tang Soo Do book, which my grand master endorsed and taught the same forms from, along with the Kukkiwon Tae Geuks.

Sincerely,

Mont


----------



## Jaeimseu

Kwans still issue dan certification, though I expect most people who get it have Kukkiwon certificates, too. 

I know a few people who have Kwan rank one dan above their Kukkiwon rank, and I know another instructor who has a Kwan rank five dan higher than his Kukkiwon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Moto9000

Thank you for your reply. That is very interesting. Anyone at the dojang with a dark bluebelt or higher could teach class if the master was not available. Before we were issued a blackbelt we had to earn three white stripes on our dark bluebelts through teaching all the warmups, stretches, techniques and colored belt forms to the class. The majority of students quit before they got a "blackbelt" and a dan # and kukkiwon certification even if they had a dark bluebelt with stripes.

I recently went to a new, local taekwondo school in the US after many years off and was quite surprised at the difference in everything. Their blackbelts start at one stripe instead of no stripes and they have no dan # on their belts. That is apart from the curriculum differences. I have found the Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo curriculum very complete in comparison.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Moto9000 said:


> That is apart from the curriculum differences. I have found the Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo curriculum very complete in comparison.



Which MDK TKD curriculum? More than one exists. Depending on when that particular MDK branch split off, they may teach using the Pinan, Palgwae or Taegeuk poomsae.


----------



## Moto9000

I am not sure which branch exactly, though I do know all my gups were issued by the Korea Taekwondo Association.

We learned all the Kicho, Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanji, Ship Soo, Jin Do, Kong San Goon and Ro Hai forms (basically almost everything in Kang Uk Lee's Tang Soo Do book except Chil Sung), plus the Kukkiwon Taegeuks and blackbelt forms. That is in addition to the sparring--both olympic and 3-point, self-defense, basic hapkido, basic boxing and weapons (nunchuk and staff).

It seems many taekwondo schools teach self-defense, hapkido and weapons as separate classes. Though many of the self-defense moves and setups for many hapkido moves are found in the older forms. And the basic weapons forms are based on the kicho patterns.

Almost forgot breaking as well.


----------



## Moto9000

Just trying to learn more as I didn't know taekwondo/tang soo do/moo duk kwan was taught any other way except when you're training for sanctioned Olympic sparring events with the new kick style where the knee always chambers like a front kick or step to fool the opponent on which angle you're attacking from.

I want to get back into martial arts seriously again with a trained moo duk kwan taekwondo master and earn my kukkiwon 4th dan after going to the local taekwondo school for six months and seeing the "competition" style poomsae forms. At first I seriously thought they were messing with me but after doing a lot of research over the past couple of weeks I realized I need to find a legitimate master if I want to continue any moo duk kwan taekwondo studies.


----------



## Buka

Just wanted to say, welcome to MartialTalk, Mont. Hope you enjoy it.


----------



## Moto9000

Thank you!


----------



## JP3

Makalakumu said:


> So, how much do these matter?  Does your organization use them?  Why or why not?



Dan numbers.  I think my ATA and WTF certificates have numbers on them, but all they mean is an identity thing, issued as the certificates go out I think.

In my current association, certificates aren't numbered. Dated of course, but no numbers.  There is some "cool" factor to "who" it was that signed this one or that one.  A buddy, older instructor of mine's shodan certificate was signed by Kenji TOmiki himself, which I think way neat. I admit, I got a bit fame-glazed about that one, starry-eyed in admiration, the old *(&$^%.


----------



## Moto9000

I wasn't aware the WTF could issue certificates actually. Do you have information on this? Is it through the USAT?


----------



## Dirty Dog

JP3 said:


> Dan numbers.  I think my ATA and WTF certificates have numbers on them, but all they mean is an identity thing, issued as the certificates go out I think.



The WTF doesn't issue certificates.



Moto9000 said:


> I wasn't aware the WTF could issue certificates actually. Do you have information on this? Is it through the USAT?



Your awareness is correct. JP3 is incorrect.


----------



## Moto9000

I thought as much. I wonder who issued the Pope his 10th dan recently through the WTF lol.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Moto9000 said:


> I thought as much. I wonder who issued the Pope his 10th dan recently through the WTF lol.



Honorary ranks don't count...


----------



## Bruce7

DMcHenry said:


> Numbers are a funny thing, I see them everywhere.  In my first TKD dojang, I was #478B, my TSD number is 15726 in my previous org, now S-7003.  I have various ohter numbers in TKD, HKD, KKW, etc certs.
> 
> I enjoy riding motorcycles.  I have a Vulcan (1600 Nomad) and belong to the Vulcan Riders and Owners Club (VROC), where I am #880, in other clubs like Southern Cruisers I have a nuber #120051, in the GCVROC #20, Rolling Blunder #116, KawaNOW #673, Dark Side #273, among others and even have a "Wet Butt Riders Association" #.
> 
> Everyone likes their numbers.  Generally, the lower the number, the more experienced you are and other members know that.  It can give you some credibility that you know what you're talking about.
> 
> Again, the above is not always true.  Sometimes you don't always join an organization as a novice, but after you already had many years of experience in training (or riding).  For instance, I didn't receive my TSD Dan bon till after I was already 4th dan, but did pretty much get my VROC number soon after buying my first Vulcan.  So sometime it tells a story, sometimes not.


I ride a 650 Vstrom  Adventure, I like those kind of numbers.


----------



## Bruce7

Dirty Dog said:


> Honorary ranks don't count...


I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting. 
If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts and others are only honorary.
Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?


----------



## pdg

Bruce7 said:


> I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.
> If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts and others are only honorary.
> Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?



There's a recent BB at our school who is older than you...

And whether it's only kkw BB that counts is pretty dependant on whether you're affiliated with them at all. 

There is more than one tkd, and some predate the founding of the kkw entirely.


----------



## kitkatninja

Makalakumu said:


> ...So, how much do these matter?  Does your organization use them?  Why or why not?



Yes, for recordkeeping...  



dancingalone said:


> These dan numbers cannot be universal across all MDK/TSD/SBD groups are they?  Meaning if you are a newly minted dan today well after the MDK split, your # if you are given one will mean nothing to HC Hwang's group.  Correct?



I very much doubt that it is universal, there are so many different group - national, international, independant, umbrella, etc...  For instance, my "number" is made up of our association number and my Dan number...  Which is used within the Union that we're a member of.  If I moved associations, I am pretty sure that I would be issued a new number provided I meet that associations requirements...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Bruce7 said:


> I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.



We have a student who earned her 1st Dan after age 70. 



> If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts



That is totally and completely wrong. Kukkiwon ranks are what counts if you're at a Kukkiwon school. TSD ranks count if you're at a TSD school. MDK ranks matter if you're at a MDK school.



> and others are only honorary.



Any organization can give honorary awards. I can assure you that my non-Kukkiwon ranks are not in the least honorary.



> Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?



Kukkiwon schools use Kukkiwon. Others use whatever organization they're affiliated with.


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.
> If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts and others are only honorary.
> Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?


Any black belt that is truly earned through time and effort counts. Period. Don't get overly sold on the background stuff. It is what YOU do that counts toward the accomplishment.


----------



## dvcochran

kitkatninja said:


> Yes, for recordkeeping...
> 
> 
> 
> I very much doubt that it is universal, there are so many different group - national, international, independant, umbrella, etc...  For instance, my "number" is made up of our association number and my Dan number...  Which is used within the Union that we're a member of.  If I moved associations, I am pretty sure that I would be issued a new number provided I meet that associations requirements...


Interesting, the way you worded your comment it sounds as if the European government is involved in your local MA somewhat the way the Korean government is. Is this accurate?


----------



## pdg

dvcochran said:


> Interesting, the way you worded your comment it sounds as if the European government is involved in your local MA somewhat the way the Korean government is. Is this accurate?



Not in the UK they're not.

Also, Europe is _not_ one country under one government, please do not assume this is the case.


----------



## kitkatninja

dvcochran said:


> Interesting, the way you worded your comment it sounds as if the European government is involved in your local MA somewhat the way the Korean government is. Is this accurate?



No, our association is a member of the WDSDU.  It's based in Korea, but it has members in alot of different countries 



pdg said:


> Also, Europe is _not_ one country under one government, please do not assume this is the case.



That's correct, Europe is a continent (just like North America includes the USA and Canada).  The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc...  Anyway, while there are national (within the UK, which by the way is a union as well) and international (within the EU and world-wide) associations, organisations and union's; the martial arts are basically unregulated as a sport and or activity, it's basically the individual National Governing Bodies (NGBs) "regulates" them - there are however certain laws and acts that we have to follow, eg health & safety act, Child Protection Act 2004, Criminal Justice and immigration Act 2008 (section 76) in relation to self-defence, etc...


----------



## Bruce7

kitkatninja said:


> No, our association is a member of the WDSDU.  It's based in Korea, but it has members in alot of different countries
> 
> 
> 
> That's correct, Europe is a continent (just like North America includes the USA and Canada).  The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc...  Anyway, while there are national (within the UK, which by the way is a union as well) and international (within the EU and world-wide) associations, organisations and union's; the martial arts are basically unregulated as a sport and or activity, it's basically the individual National Governing Bodies (NGBs) "regulates" them - there are however certain laws and acts that we have to follow, eg health & safety act, Child Protection Act 2004, Criminal Justice and immigration Act 2008 (section 76) in relation to self-defence, etc...



I like all the members of the United Kingdom, but you are a little funny.
In the U.S. the whole North, South was a thing, but nothing compared to Scots and English.
In 2006 I was in the southern Libyan desert on an oil rig with a bunch of Scot. We were drinking home made brew and listening to the radio.
England was play somebody in soccer, excuse me football. The funny thing was the Scots were laughing when the other team scored on England. They saw my surprise and said they rooted for anyone who played against England.
Yet, you better not say something against the U.K., because they will join ranks with the English against you.
When they got upset about my km joke. I knew Dvcochran step in it without trying when I read his post.


----------



## pdg

kitkatninja said:


> The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc...



Well, that's _one_ way of describing it...


----------



## kitkatninja

Bruce7 said:


> England was play somebody in soccer, excuse me football. The funny thing was the Scots were laughing when the other team scored on England. They saw my surprise and said they rooted for anyone who played against England....



Haha...  Well the UK comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and tbh, it's not just Scotland that laughs when goals are scored against England...  To be honest, while it's optimism that keeps England's hopes alive, the realism is that England is terrible at football (soccer).  Last time England won the World Cup in Football was 1966 and they continue to try to ride that win (against Germany, even though Germany has won it 4 times).  England has never won the UEFA European Championship (the Eurocup) or the FIFA Confederations Cup...


----------



## dvcochran

kitkatninja said:


> No, our association is a member of the WDSDU.  It's based in Korea, but it has members in alot of different countries
> 
> 
> 
> That's correct, Europe is a continent (just like North America includes the USA and Canada).  The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc...  Anyway, while there are national (within the UK, which by the way is a union as well) and international (within the EU and world-wide) associations, organisations and union's; the martial arts are basically unregulated as a sport and or activity, it's basically the individual National Governing Bodies (NGBs) "regulates" them - there are however certain laws and acts that we have to follow, eg health & safety act, Child Protection Act 2004, Criminal Justice and immigration Act 2008 (section 76) in relation to self-defence, etc...


The U.S. is much the same. I do not think we have anything like your CJ&IA. Laws and influence may come into play if a person were ever in a courtroom scenario.


----------



## Buka

Bruce7 said:


> I like all the members of the United Kingdom, but you are a little funny.
> In the U.S. the whole North, South was a thing, but nothing compared to Scots and English.
> In 2006 I was in the southern Libyan desert on an oil rig with a bunch of Scot. We were drinking home made brew and listening to the radio.
> England was play somebody in soccer, excuse me football. The funny thing was the Scots were laughing when the other team scored on England. They saw my surprise and said they rooted for anyone who played against England.
> Yet, you better not say something against the U.K., because they will join ranks with the English against you.
> When they got upset about my km joke. I knew Dvcochran step in it without trying when I read his post.



My wife is one half Irish/Scotish and one half Sicilian. 

She doesn't even need another person in the room to start an argument.


----------



## dvcochran

Buka said:


> My wife is one half Irish/Scotish and one half Sicilian.
> 
> She doesn't even need another person in the room to start an argument.


Yea, I got one just like that. She is just your typical southern mutt though. Her lineage is Irish & Cherokee. Some days I feel like I don't have a chance.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> My wife is one half Irish/Scotish and one half Sicilian.
> 
> She doesn't even need another person in the room to start an argument.


My wife is Russian, Ukranian, Polish, and Jewish. She's genetically capable of invading herself.


----------



## rick_tsdmdk

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> On another note,,,
> 
> Craig,
> Imagine this. Your Dan-Bon is 44922!!!
> 
> What would it have been if we lived in a perfect world and all of the Tang Soo Do practitioners would have stayed true to Hwang Kee and never left the Federation?
> 
> How many practitioners of Tang Soo Do are there in the world that have reached Dan-Ranking?
> 
> What would your number have been if we were truly all together in "ONE" lineage?
> 
> I wonder...



Imagine if the Federation had stayed true to their members, they might be the largest organization in the world.


----------



## isshinryuronin

This is an outsider's view, not being a Korean style practitioner.

Organizations can be over organized, over regulated, micro managed and authoritative.  When there is a split(s), the old order is no longer monolithic and new ones scramble to fill the void and establish their own structure.  Chaos is the result, eventually settling to simple confusion.   This is a generalized sociologic look at the root of the problem in question.

Organized, industrialized nations are actually more fragile than 3rd world countries.  For example, the USA has been put in more upheaval than, say Ecuador, from the Corona virus, and will take longer to bounce back.

Now, finally getting to martial arts with the above in mind:  For many practitioners of Korean MA, as well as ALL those of Japanese and Okinawan styles (I am one of those, who began in 1966 just to give you a historical perspective) the current Korean MA organizational chart in incomprehensible - Hwarang Do, Mudukwon, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Kukkiwon, all the multiple Federations - ITF, WTF, ATF and I'm sure there're other various entities (I know I'm mixing apples and oranges a little) - now throw in multiple Dan number series, I feel your pain.  I'm confused, even after explanations by my TKD 5th degree friend. 

But MA is not a numerical based entity requiring spreadsheets to decipher - it is an art and its practitioners should not be concerned with numbers.  Seniority counts for something, skill level definitely counts.  Certificate numbers?  Maybe not so much.  Is it a preoccupation with order and organizational detail, posturing, ego?  How important is having a number of 23456 or 23465? 

The Samurai warriors did not concern themselves with money; they left such mundane matters to their wives (no offense, ladies.)  They concentrated on their art.  If we concentrate on that and share our knowledge with those wanting to learn, concerning ourselves with the ideals the MA profess, numbers pale in comparison.


----------



## dvcochran

isshinryuronin said:


> This is an outsider's view, not being a Korean style practitioner.
> 
> Organizations can be over organized, over regulated, micro managed and authoritative.  When there is a split(s), the old order is no longer monolithic and new ones scramble to fill the void and establish their own structure.  Chaos is the result, eventually settling to simple confusion.   This is a generalized sociologic look at the root of the problem in question.
> 
> Organized, industrialized nations are actually more fragile than 3rd world countries.  For example, the USA has been put in more upheaval than, say Ecuador, from the Corona virus, and will take longer to bounce back.
> 
> Now, finally getting to martial arts with the above in mind:  For many practitioners of Korean MA, as well as ALL those of Japanese and Okinawan styles (I am one of those, who began in 1966 just to give you a historical perspective) the current Korean MA organizational chart in incomprehensible - Hwarang Do, Mudukwon, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Kukkiwon, all the multiple Federations - ITF, WTF, ATF and I'm sure there're other various entities (I know I'm mixing apples and oranges a little) - now throw in multiple Dan number series, I feel your pain.  I'm confused, even after explanations by my TKD 5th degree friend.
> 
> But MA is not a numerical based entity requiring spreadsheets to decipher - it is an art and its practitioners should not be concerned with numbers.  Seniority counts for something, skill level definitely counts.  Certificate numbers?  Maybe not so much.  Is it a preoccupation with order and organizational detail, posturing, ego?  How important is having a number of 23456 or 23465?
> 
> The Samurai warriors did not concern themselves with money; they left such mundane matters to their wives (no offense, ladies.)  They concentrated on their art.  If we concentrate on that and share our knowledge with those wanting to learn, concerning ourselves with the ideals the MA profess, numbers pale in comparison.


Great post. 
To be fair, the person practicing a certain KMA or JMA/Okinawan style is only focused on the one system. They are not concerned with any variants. I would think there are many more JMA styles but you seldom hear of the overlap that you infer. 
As you said, purity of training is paramount for finding enjoyment with longevity.


----------



## isshinryuronin

dvcochran said:


> Great post.
> To be fair, the person practicing a certain KMA or JMA/Okinawan style is only focused on the one system. They are not concerned with any variants. I would think there are many more JMA styles but you seldom hear of the overlap that you infer.
> As you said, purity of training is paramount for finding enjoyment with longevity.



To be sure, there are various Japanese & Okinawan styles, and even variants within those (which is an irritation to me as I started long ago, before my style diverged into splinter groups.)   But my style was not strongly organized, so as my previous post suggested, splitting into factions was not as chaotic as a more organized entity splitting up. 

For us, it's not a numbering or even an administrative authority issue, but minor (but still irritating to me) differences in form execution.  It's a matter of tomato vs tomahto.  The bigger issue for me is the difference in Dan skill levels from branch to branch and school to school.  I'll end with two quotes:  "Live and let live," and "To thine own self be true."


----------



## dvcochran

isshinryuronin said:


> To be sure, there are various Japanese & Okinawan styles, and even variants within those (which is an irritation to me as I started long ago, before my style diverged into splinter groups.)   But my style was not strongly organized, so as my previous post suggested, splitting into factions was not as chaotic as a more organized entity splitting up.
> 
> For us, it's not a numbering or even an administrative authority issue, but minor (but still irritating to me) differences in form execution.  It's a matter of tomato vs tomahto.  The bigger issue for me is the difference in Dan skill levels from branch to branch and school to school.  I'll end with two quotes:  "Live and let live," and "To thine own self be true."


Understood but I don’t know how/if that will ever improve. Take two people who came up in the same system/school who both opened their own dojo. Inherently, they are going to teach quite differently, even if the material is kept the same. This will imprint on the students and so on and so forth. 
This is on of the greatest challenges when assessing someone who you do not see on a regular basis. Are they doing it wrong or just with a slightly different flavor?


----------

