# Kim Sut



## wingchun100 (Jan 18, 2017)

Another area where I have been struggling is in Kim Sut, which is the squeezing of the knees during our basic Wing Chun stance. I haven't been sinking into my root properly, which results in making it ridiculously easy to send me off balance.

Then last Sunday, Sifu London told me I should get a softball and hold it between my knees while doing Sil Lum Tao. I tried it a few times, and I'll be damned if it doesn't give the legs one hell of a workout. Not only that, but I can see what he means as far as it helping me sink into the root.

I sent him a video where I did SLT only for about 3-4 minutes. My legs were already screaming. He wrote me back and said, "I understand this is a demo, but you should do SLT for about 15 minutes."

I was like, "WHAT?!?!?!?!" My shout startled my girlfriend. LOL

Anyway, I feel that (much like my Chi Sao revelations) this simple addition to my training, of holding the softball while doing Sil Lum Tao, will help increase my rooting and structure.


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## KPM (Jan 18, 2017)

Ok, yes, that might be good for strengthening the hip adductors and the VMO.   But the whole idea of "kim sut" and having to keep the knees squeezed inward is only for training and for strengthening purposes and can be over-done.  That really doesn't do all that much for rooting and sinking.  Being able to relax and let the weight drop naturally is more important. Keeping the weight centered over the K1 point and off of the heels improves not only stability in the stance, but also the ability to sink and have your COG go forward naturally rather than straight down or backwards.  When you can relax and sink naturally with forward intent, THEN strength of the leg muscles becomes important for resisting or redirecting an incoming force and being able to hold that rooted/sunken position.  But good biomechanics are more important than standing in YGKYM for extended periods.  At least that's my 2 cents.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

I've seen the squeeze knee in on something thing done before, I'm not a big fan of squeezing the knees in. At least in my lineage the feet are almost pointing straight (max 15 deg. Medial Rotation). The knees are bent, and the spine is straight so that the ears, shoulders, and hips are on the same saggital line. For me I feel much more stable this way. Besides I get enough of a leg workout from horse stance in northern shaolin lol.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Another area where I have been struggling is in Kim Sut, which is the squeezing of the knees during our basic Wing Chun stance. I haven't been sinking into my root properly, which results in making it ridiculously easy to send me off balance.
> 
> Then last Sunday, Sifu London told me I should get a softball and hold it between my knees while doing Sil Lum Tao. I tried it a few times, and I'll be damned if it doesn't give the legs one hell of a workout. Not only that, but I can see what he means as far as it helping me sink into the root.
> 
> ...


Do u "grab the ground with your toes" while rooting?


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## wingchun100 (Jan 18, 2017)

DanT said:


> Do u "grab the ground with your toes" while rooting?


 
Yes, that is another part of it.


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## Danny T (Jan 18, 2017)

My understanding of kim sut isn't "Squeezing the knees" or pinching of the knees but is rather an action of having the toes turned in slightly and bending the knees along with hip action and the tightening of the sphincter to lock the structure. When the legs are allowed to turn and the knee to bend naturally the knee will follow the toes in the direction the toes point. By turning the toes inward slightly the knees turn in slightly as well bending the knees forward naturally squeezes or pinches them. There is no need to pull the knees together. When done properly it is easy to hold a ball between the knees by the forward flexing of the knees rather than squeezing the knees together.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

Danny T said:


> My understanding of kim sut isn't "Squeezing the knees" or pinching of the knees but is rather an action of having the toes turned in slightly and bending the knees along with hip action and the tightening of the sphincter to lock the structure. When the legs are allowed to turn and the knee to bend naturally the knee will follow the toes in the direction the toes point. By turning the toes inward slightly the knees turn in slightly as well bending the knees forward naturally squeezes or pinches them. There is no need to pull the knees together. When done properly it is easy to hold a ball between the knees by the forward flexing of the knees rather than squeezing the knees together.


Being a kinesiologist, and studying physiology and anatomy, I've never understood how squeezing your a**hole shut does anything. But apart from that I'm pretty much in agreement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 18, 2017)

DanT said:


> Being a kinesiologist, and studying physiology and anatomy, I've never understood how squeezing your a**hole shut does anything. But apart from that I'm pretty much in agreement.


Wouldn't that normally recruit muscles around it, and encourage a slight shift in posture? Or maybe that's just what happens when I _need _to squeeze my ***hole shut.


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## Danny T (Jan 18, 2017)

DanT said:


> Being a kinesiologist, and studying physiology and anatomy, I've never understood how squeezing your a**hole shut does anything. But apart from that I'm pretty much in agreement.


I'm not a kinesiologist and will certainly yield to your expertise. 
I don't know specifically which muscles are being affected or how when the sphincter is tighten.
I do know what I feel and it may well be just that a feeling however, my root, structure, and ability to maintain them seems to be strongly enhanced when I do so. Maybe it is just snake oil, power of suggestion that makes it stronger.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Wouldn't that normally recruit muscles around it, and encourage a slight shift in posture? Or maybe that's just what happens when I _need _to squeeze my ***hole shut.


Yeah I think it's the glutes that you're supposed to squeeze when rooting, the a**hole squeeze may just be happening along with it.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I'm not a kinesiologist and will certainly yield to your expertise.
> I don't know specifically which muscles are being affected or how when the sphincter is tighten.
> I do know what I feel and it may well be just that a feeling however, my root, structure, and ability to maintain them seems to be strongly enhanced when I do so. Maybe it is just snake oil, power of suggestion that makes it stronger.


To me it makes a lot more sense to squeeze the actual glute muscles when rooting. The actual a**hole squeeze is just a result of trying to squeeze the big glute muscles.


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## Danny T (Jan 18, 2017)

Are you suggesting the anal sphincter cannot be engaged unless the glutes are engaged?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 18, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Are you suggesting the anal sphincter cannot be engaged unless the glutes are engaged?


It sounded more like the other way around, to me.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Are you suggesting the anal sphincter cannot be engaged unless the glutes are engaged?


No they can be engaged separately, but generally when you tell people to squeeze their butt cheeks, they squeeze both their glutes and their a**hole.


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## DanT (Jan 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It sounded more like the other way around, to me.


Generally they can be engaged separately, butt for the most part when you tell people to squeeze their butt cheeks they squeeze both the sphincter and the glutes. See what I did there?


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## KPM (Jan 19, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Are you suggesting the anal sphincter cannot be engaged unless the glutes are engaged?



Tightening the anal sphincter is not tied to tightening the gluts.  However, it is tied to tightening the perineal muscles...the floor of the pelvis.  This is what you are accomplishing by trying to tighten the anal sphincter.  Now personally, I don't see any real utility in doing that.  How is tightening anything going to contribute to sinking and rooting?  In my Wing Chun it is more an idea of relaxing so that your weight sinks and goes forward naturally.  We don't know try and "lock" the pelvis or tilt the pelvis in any way.  We keep a relaxed and "floating" pelvis.  Then when you encounter force, you can easily adjust your COG as needed to compensate and direct that force through the legs  and into the ground.  THAT is really what rooting is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 19, 2017)

KPM said:


> Tightening the anal sphincter is not tied to tightening the gluts.  However, it is tied to tightening the perineal muscles...the floor of the pelvis.  This is what you are accomplishing by trying to tighten the anal sphincter.  Now personally, I don't see any real utility in doing that.  How is tightening anything going to contribute to sinking and rooting?  In my Wing Chun it is more an idea of relaxing so that your weight sinks and goes forward naturally.  We don't know try and "lock" the pelvis or tilt the pelvis in any way.  We keep a relaxed and "floating" pelvis.  Then when you encounter force, you can easily adjust your COG as needed to compensate and direct that force through the legs  and into the ground.  THAT is really what rooting is.


Interestingly, that's a lot closer to an explanation we'd use in NGA - it's what gives us a "heaviness" that makes moving us and throwing us harder.


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## Danny T (Jan 19, 2017)

DanT said:


> Generally they can be engaged separately, butt for the most part when you tell people to squeeze their butt cheeks they squeeze both the sphincter and the glutes. See what I did there?





KPM said:


> Tightening the anal sphincter is not tied to tightening the gluts.  However, it is tied to tightening the perineal muscles...the floor of the pelvis.  This is what you are accomplishing by trying to tighten the anal sphincter.  Now personally, I don't see any real utility in doing that.  How is tightening anything going to contribute to sinking and rooting?  In my Wing Chun it is more an idea of relaxing so that your weight sinks and goes forward naturally.  We don't know try and "lock" the pelvis or tilt the pelvis in any way.  We keep a relaxed and "floating" pelvis.  Then when you encounter force, you can easily adjust your COG as needed to compensate and direct that force through the legs  and into the ground.  THAT is really what rooting is.


Yeah...where I was going with this; the sphincter can be engaged without the glutes. We keep the glutes relaxed. 
When I say 'lock'...try this.
Get into your YJKYM. Sink and relax. Stand up.
Now back into the stance, Sink, Relax and Tighten the anal sphincter. Now without changing anything attempt to stand up right. You should be 'locked' remaining in the YJKYM.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 19, 2017)

Danny T said:


> My understanding of kim sut isn't "Squeezing the knees" or pinching of the knees but is rather an action of having the toes turned in slightly and bending the knees along with hip action and the tightening of the sphincter to lock the structure. When the legs are allowed to turn and the knee to bend naturally the knee will follow the toes in the direction the toes point. By turning the toes inward slightly the knees turn in slightly as well bending the knees forward naturally squeezes or pinches them. There is no need to pull the knees together. When done properly it is easy to hold a ball between the knees by the forward flexing of the knees rather than squeezing the knees together.


 
iIt's not really pinching or squeezing. What I mean is I am sinking enough into my stance where I can hold the ball there. Sorry if I misspoke.


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