# 5 reasons TaeKwonDo as a system (not individual techniques) breaks down in a Muay Thai ring



## Axiom

I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist. This despite the fact that all strikes in Muay Thai are also in TaeKwondo! My reasons may surprise you.

1. Footwork. TKDoins are often renowned for their speedy  and light footwork. However, being light on your feet in a Thaiboxing ring also carries the disadvantage of being easier to knock OFF your feet. Thaiboxers in comparision are more flat footed but rock solid to the ground. Getting put on your butt repeatedly will wear and tear on you. And this will happen even more easily with one foot up in the air kicking..

2. The kicks.  This ties in to the point above. TaeKwondo kicks are snappy and quick of the feet, but makes one liable to get pushed off balance in a rule set in which you can actually grabb and push down kicks. Stability will once again be a major question mark. This is demoralising in the long run and, the kicks you perfected in the dojang won't get you as many points (or KO'S) as you might have previously though..

3. The hands. To break a skilled Muay Thai fighters defence in the ring you will need to soften him/her up with boxing, and/ or have a boxing defence to punches. Kicking alone will not get the job done against a legit guy(especially not concidering 1 and 2). TKD guys are not drilled in either offense or defence to the level required.

4. No clinch. This can be modified in theory, but I will list it here given that most clubs neglect it.

5. Lack of Continious fighting. TKD is geared towards one strike, one victory philosophy. Even WTF rules that allow full contact break after making contact. It will be an adjustment for a TKD fighter simply fight on and is definately puts him/her in a slight psychological disadvantage, compared to the thaifighter.

Feel free to comment and disagree on any of the points!


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist.



Ok first explain why a TKDist is in a Muay Thai ring in the first place. Why would they do that or vice versa? 
Muay Thai is a specialised sport, you train MT for it. If you think someone training TKD would get into a MT ring in a MT competition you are seriously deluded. Have you ever wonder why Sir Mo Farah hasn't raced against Usain Bolt in a sprint race or the Williams sisters haven't competed in squash or badminton?

Your comparisons are completely meaningless. You cannot compare two things that aren't used against each other in the way you seem to think they are. I think you also lack the knowledge of either style to be able to compare them anyway.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Ok first explain why a TKDist is in a Muay Thai ring in the first place. Why would they do that?



Why not? It's the same arsenal of techniques (Kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws) only difference in how they are executed.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Why not? It's the same arsenal of techniques (Kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws) only difference in how they are executed.



Why not? simply because it is unrealistic. If you had asked how they would have got on in an open kick boxing competition then fair enough but the rules of MT preclude you using techniques other than MT so you cannot get a comparison. You may as well as how a Judoka would get on in a MT ring. Also if you wanted to take different styles and pit them against each other in a no rules or minimal rules bout all you need to do is look at the early UFCs though those results are skewed by commercial considerations.


----------



## drop bear

There are TKD trainers that have made it work. Jemal Hasan was putting out some very handy ring fighters.

MASTER Jemal Hasan | Instructors

Kelly seif same deal.

XFC Gym - Our Staff


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Why not? simply because it is unrealistic. If you had asked how they would have got on in an open kick boxing competition then fair enough but the rules of MT preclude you using techniques other than MT so you cannot get a comparison. .



Open kickboxing competition, MT rules, MMA, doesn't affect my points in the slightest. Bare in mind that these are my observations after countless match-ups where patterns emerge, as well as my own experience in TaeKwonDo, and people who crossed over in my club and competed in Muay Thai. One guy who won bronze in a TKD world championship plainly stated: TKD kicks don't work against Thaifighters. And he competed in Muay Thai for *5* years

However, this is assuming both practitioners are equally skilled. A highly skilled TKD fighter will destroy a lesser skilled Thaiguy. But that goes without saying.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> There are TKD trainers that have made it work. Jemal Hasan was putting out some very handy ring fighters.
> 
> MASTER Jemal Hasan | Instructors
> 
> Kelly sief same deal.



Since I have no information on how he trains his pupils, I would prefer to not comment. Do you agree about the points I raised?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> but the rules of MT preclude you using techniques other than MT so you cannot get a comparison..



That's not true. You can throw TKD roundhouse kicks, sidekicks, spinning backicks etc and still get awarded points.


----------



## MA_Student

Oh here we go again


----------



## MA_Student

So you're telling me that a Muay Thai fighter would win a Muay Thai match against a taekwondo fighter? WOW never knew that... 

And in a taekwondo competition a taekwondo guy will beat a Muay Thai guy.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> So you're telling me that a Muay Thai fighter would win a Muay Thai match against a taekwondo fighter? WOW never knew that...
> .



The difference is that in a Muay Thai match, the TKD fighter is welcomed to perform any technique within the boundaries of kicking, punching, throwing, kneeing, elbowing. A Muay Thai fighter in a TKD rules set is not however allowed to do the same. Only TKD techniques are allowed there.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> The difference is that in a Muay Thai match, the TKD fighter is welcomed to perform any technique within the boundaries of kicking, punching, throwing, kneeing, elbowing. A Muay Thai fighter in a TKD rules set is not however allowed to do the same. Only TKD techniques are allowed there.


Wrong again. There are different classes to Muay Thai. A class, B class and C class. I can't remember the exact details but in certain ones elbows are completely not allowed and only knees to the body and I have seen a couple where knees and throws aren't allowed either


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Since I have no information on how he trains his pupils, I would prefer to not comment. Do you agree about the points I raised?



Here is Burak hasan

TKD.





Muay thai or kickboxing or something.





There is definitely the ability to cross over. I mean I accept they are different games.


----------



## Headhunter

For god sake...you do taekwondo so basically your trashing your own style. You don't do Muay Thai so stop pretending you know about Muay Thai. You don't do boxing so stop pretending to know about boxing, you don't know Jiu Jitsu so stop pretending you know Jiu Jitsu. 

Basically shut up making up stupid assumptions and presenting them as fact when you actually have 0 idea what you're talking about


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Wrong again. There are different classes to Muay Thai. A class, B class and C class. I can't remember the exact details but in certain ones elbows are completely not allowed and only knees to the body and I have seen a couple where knees and throws aren't allowed either




What difference does it make how restricted each class is? It's the same restriction for both sides.


----------



## Axiom

[QUOTE="drop bear, post: 1862787, member: 32080"

There is definitely the ability to cross over. I mean I accept they are different games.[/QUOTE]

That was not the discussion. The discussion was using a TKD system - footwork, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws, against A Muay Thai system.


----------



## MA_Student

Frankly this a pointless discussion as THEY'RE DIFFERENT SPORTS. It's like comparing how a basketball player would do in a football match. They're different games different rules, different objectives different everything


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> [QUOTE="drop bear, post: 1862787, member: 32080"
> 
> There is definitely the ability to cross over. I mean I accept they are different games.



That was not the discussion. The discussion was using a TKD system - footwork, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws, against A Muay Thai system.[/QUOTE]


Yeah but you are not going to not elbow and just let the other guy elbow. Cos that would be silly. You are allways going to use all the tools available.

Otherwise there is an example of a TKD system working in kickboxing. Now it is a TKD system that has a fairly long history of producing good kickboxers. So I don't know if that validates the TKD or invalidates it.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Frankly this a pointless discussion as THEY'RE DIFFERENT SPORTS. It's like comparing how a basketball player would do in a football match. They're different games different rules, different objectives different everything



I have already cleared up that TKD fighters can do whatever technique they want, within a kick, box, knee, elbow, rule set. How ever you slice and dice it, there is no excuse if they fail but their own shortcommings. They are not restricted in anway more than the Thaidude


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Why not? It's the same arsenal of techniques (Kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws) only difference in how they are executed.


Because the problems exist if you go in the opposite direction. If a Muay Thai fighter entered a TKD competition, he'd be at a disadvantage - he's trained for the wrong rules.

Now, I think your point was more about them meeting in an MMA setting (think early MMA, where many people still brought mostly single-style skill sets).


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> For god sake...you do taekwondo so basically your trashing your own style. You don't do Muay Thai so stop pretending you know about Muay Thai. You don't do boxing so stop pretending to know about boxing, you don't know Jiu Jitsu so stop pretending you know Jiu Jitsu.
> 
> Basically shut up making up stupid assumptions and presenting them as fact when you actually have 0 idea what you're talking about



Calm down. Sheesh.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I have already cleared up that TKD fighters can do whatever technique they want, within a kick, box, knee, elbow, rule set. How ever you slice and dice it, there is no excuse if they fail but their own shortcommings. They are not handicapped in anway more than the Thaidude


Read this slowly so maybe it'll sink in.....they....are....different....sports....taekwondo guys train for different reasons and intensities than Muay Thai fighters it's a fact. Taekwondo have their own rule sets and tactics and Muay Thai has there's so of course Muay Thai fighters will win in their own rule setting.

Look at mcgregor and mayweather perfect example mcgregor is great at his rules but when he moved over to boxing he got beat fairly easily because it's not his main sport.

Why am I even still answering this rubbish


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> That's not true. You can throw TKD roundhouse kicks, sidekicks, spinning backicks etc and still get awarded points.



Muay Thai isn't about points though, it's full contact going for a knock out, may not always get it but that's the aim.



drop bear said:


> There is definitely the ability to cross over.



Cross over yes but with training and knowledge of the rules.  



Axiom said:


> I have already cleared up that TKD fighters can do whatever technique they want, within a kick, box, knee, elbow, rule set. How ever you slice and dice it, there is no excuse if they fail but their own shortcommings. They are not restricted in anway more than the Thaidude



You are disrespecting your own style, for goodness sake stop training in it if it bothers you that much.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> [QUOTE="drop bear, post: 1862787, member: 32080"
> 
> There is definitely the ability to cross over. I mean I accept they are different games.



That was not the discussion. The discussion was using a TKD system - footwork, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws, against A Muay Thai system.[/QUOTE]
 Actually, you included training for TKD competition rules in your original situation. That's not the system, but the competition training. Take that away (which likely also alters the kicks and stability issues), and some things change.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Because the problems exist if you go in the opposite direction. If a Muay Thai fighter entered a TKD competition, he'd be at a disadvantage - he's trained for the wrong rules.
> 
> Now, I think your point was more about them meeting in an MMA setting (think early MMA, where many people still brought mostly single-style skill sets).




I think you misunderstood my point. TaeKwondo can use it's own additional tools in their sparring and train for a muay thai clinch, without it making any difference, because their failure will be in their footwork/kicking which is ingrained in the system due to the nature of the kicks. And different footwork would not suit TaeKwonDo kicks, that are intended to be snappy and retractable.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Muay Thai isn't about points though, it's full contact going for a knock out, may not always get it but that's the aim.
> .



Makes no difference. You either knock the guy out or win on points. Either way, TKD corresponding techniques are allowed.


----------



## Tez3

I'm going to start a thread...why Judo falls down in fencing competitions............ or why toe wrestling doesn't work in boxing bouts. Why karate doesn't work in badminton?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I think you misunderstood my point. TaeKwondo can use it's own additional tools in their sparring and train for a muay thai clinch, without it making any difference, because their failure will be in their footwork/kicking which is ingrained in the system due to the nature of the kicks. And different footwork would not suit TaeKwonDo kicks, that are intended to be snappy and retractable.


Except that training for the context should (with a good trainer) change things to better suit that context. You're assuming it's impossible to adjust these elements in TKD. I find the likelihood of that vanishingly small.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Makes no difference. You either knock the guy out or win on points. Either way, TKD corresponding techniques are allowed.



They write letters to each other?


----------



## MA_Student

Tez3 said:


> I'm going to start a thread...why Judo falls down in fencing competitions............ or why toe wrestling doesn't work in boxing bouts. Why karate doesn't work in badminton?


Why karate doesn't work in badminton? That's easy because I tested the question and I got arrested before the end of the match so I think I lost


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I'm going to start a thread...why Judo falls down in fencing competitions............ or why toe wrestling doesn't work in boxing bouts. Why karate doesn't work in badminton?



That analogy fails since they are distinct types of fighting. I am comparing two styles of striking with the same tools.


----------



## MA_Student

Listen you're trashing taekwondo so much and that's your style..that's a new one I've not heard before. Why on earth are you doing it if you think it's so bad


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> They write letters to each other?



You do know that corresponding has more than one meaning?  
*
corresponding
*
_*adjective*_

*analogous or equivalent in character, form, or function; comparable.*


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Listen you're trashing taekwondo so much and that's your style..that's a new one I've not heard before. Why on earth are you doing it if you think it's so bad



Because I don't train TKD for ring fighting. and most students who are objective about the subject agree.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> You do know that corresponding has more than one meaning?
> *
> corresponding
> *
> _*adjective*_
> 
> *analogous or equivalent in character, form, or function; comparable.*



Have you got a sense of humour?


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> That analogy fails since they are distinct types of fighting. I am comparing two styles of striking with the same tools.


No they're not....there's no 360 degree spinning kicks in Muay Thai, there's no flying knees in taekwondo, there's no back fists in Muay Thai there's so many differences in the 2 styles it's like saying football and basketball are the same because they use balls and have teams


----------



## Rough Rider

Axiom said:


> Even WTF rules that allow full contact break after making contact.


That's simply not true.  WTF sparring is continuous.  The judges award points by pressing buttons while the match continues.  It is only stopped for a knock-down or a penalty.  OK, sometimes it is stopped to award bonus points, due to recent changes.  It was much easier to judge when it was 1 point for body contact and 2 points for head contact.  But, anyway, WTF sparring is not point sparring.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Because I don't train TKD for ring fighting. and most students who are objective about the subject agree



You know most martial arts students in the whole world! Wow. You are a legend in your own lunchtime!


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> I think you misunderstood my point. TaeKwondo can use it's own additional tools in their sparring and train for a muay thai clinch, without it making any difference, because their failure will be in their footwork/kicking which is ingrained in the system due to the nature of the kicks. And different footwork would not suit TaeKwonDo kicks, that are intended to be snappy and retractable.



Snappy is not that big an issue. for example the question mark kick still knocks guys out. Snappy still works. 

I mean I probably wouldn't stand side on and bounce. But otherwise the concepts are still kind of sound.


----------



## Axiom

Rough Rider said:


> That's simply not true.  WTF sparring is continuous. .



Perhaps in theory, but I*ve NEVER witnessed a dude continously clubbing down another fighter. Now why that is, you would have to ask someone who is more deeply involved in the sport.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Perhaps in theory, but I*ve NEVER witnessed a dude continously clubbing down another fighter. Now why that is, you would have to ask someone who is more deeply involved in the sport.


Perhaps a way to clarify the errors in your logic (which is separate from evaluating the conclusion), is to go for something similar. If we compared training for indoor soccer to raining for FIFA-rules soccer we'd find those training exclusively for indoor soccer will probably perform poorly at FIFA soccer. Why? Different context they've trained for. Smaller field, can use walls (I think that's true for any wall bordering the playing area), and hard floors will all change the way the game is played. Similar toolsets, but used and trained differently.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> a dude continously clubbing down another fighter.



Does it have to be a club? what about a Bo or Jo perhaps a katana? I've love to see a Muay Thai fighter against a fighter armed with a katana ( or even a small knife) What fun!


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Perhaps in theory, but I*ve NEVER witnessed a dude continously clubbing down another fighter. Now why that is, you would have to ask someone who is more deeply involved in the sport.


Never seen it in your 4 years of training that must mean it's never happened right.

I'll tell you why you don't see it...because the majority of taekwondo fighters aren't training to be professional fighters and don't want brain damage. If you're fighter then hard sparring is vital but when your training as a hobby a few times a week why the heck would your head smashed around


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Perhaps in theory, but I*ve NEVER witnessed a dude continously clubbing down another fighter. Now why that is, you would have to ask someone who is more deeply involved in the sport.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Does it have to be a club? what about a Bo or Jo perhaps a katana? I've love to see a Muay Thai fighter against a fighter armed with a katana ( or even a small knife) What fun!



Do you have aspergers syndrome?


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


>



CONTINIOUSLY. Do you know what that word entails?


----------



## Axiom

I guess the reason: *training because it's fun* did not enter into the thought process of some users in here.
_
Only train that which is the best and wins the testosterone award_


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Do you have aspergers syndrome?


She's using sarcasm because we're all bored of your bs


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> CONTINIOUSLY. Do you know what that word entails?



The word itself doesn't 'entail' anything, but he does know what the word means.



Axiom said:


> I guess the reason: *training because it's fun* did not enter into the thought process of some users in here.



I guess you have no idea what you are talking about.



Axiom said:


> _Only train that which is the best and wins the testosterone award_



I might as well give up training then.............


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Do you have aspergers syndrome?


Also so what if she did? What about it? Got something against people with aspergers have you?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> The word itself doesn't 'entail' anything, but he does know what the word means.



I'm sorry I have to do this to you once again. 

*Entail
*
to cause *or involve by necessity* or as a consequence,

the definition of entail


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> CONTINIOUSLY. Do you know what that word entails?


It's hard to continuously club someone when they're knocked out on the floor


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Do you have aspergers syndrome?



Actually, seriously, I was going to ask you that. You take everything that is said literally as if the nuances, ideas and comments don't process in your mind. I suspect the reason you have asked me is in fact because you have difficulty not in the English language but that you think literally and also obsess with certain aspects such as the black belt. I have actually thought it before in other threads, if this is the case please tell us how we can engage  with you in a way that is meaningful.

If you aren't however I will continue to be sarcastic because I can be and we are now getting tired of your haranguing us.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> It's hard to continuously club someone when they're knocked out on the floor



That's a separate matter. Fact is that WTF TaeKwondo is for all intents and purposes a stop format, despite being full contact.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> That's a separate matter. Fact is that WTF TaeKwondo is for all intents and purposes a stop format, despite being full contact.


Well yeah you knock someone out you stop...just like Muay Thai


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I'm sorry I have to do this to you once again.
> 
> *Entail
> *
> to cause *or involve by necessity* or as a consequence,
> 
> the definition of entail



Now you are proving my point because you didn't understand and are looking at the wrong thing.

If you mean  _what does_ _continuous sparring entails_ that is correct but you asked if he knew what '_continuous_' entailed, well of course it doesn't entail anything because you haven't qualified what is continuous.
Grammar & vocabulary


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> If you aren't however I will continue to be sarcastic because I can be and we are now getting tired of your haranguing us.



One does not exclude the other. You are both trying to correct me and be sarcastic/funny at the same time. You have a tendency to jump on words, which you deem incorrectly used, as in your previous post, when it is unwarranted. Trying to be a wiseass.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I'm sorry I have to do this to you once again.
> 
> *Entail
> *
> to cause *or involve by necessity* or as a consequence,
> 
> the definition of entail


Yes, and a word doesn't "involve by necessity".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> It's hard to continuously club someone when they're knocked out on the floor


Technically, it's pretty easy.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> If you mean  _what does_ _continuous sparring entails_ that is correct but you asked if he knew what '_continuous_' entailed, well of course it doesn't entail anything because you haven't qualified what is continuous.
> Grammar & vocabulary



Because I didn't think I need to spell out every single sentence in order for you guys to get it. But from here on, I will be ULTRA precise. I have to take great care of *native* speakers, it seems.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Because I didn't think I need to spell out every single sentence in order for you guys to get it. But from here on, I will be ULTRA precise. I have to take great care of *native* speakers, it seems.


What a hero


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> One does not exclude the other. You are both trying to correct me and be sarcastic/funny at the same time. You have a tendency to jump on words, which you deem incorrectly used, as in your previous post, when it is unwarranted. Trying to be a wiseass.



Oh I am cut to the quick, dear boy, how could you!
Actually and I don't know how to break this to you, I have a first class (1:1) degree in English language and literature from a top British university which is why I sound as if I'm right...because I am. Yes I am being extremely pedantic about words but that's because you are trying to twist and turn what is being said to you because you refuse to believe you are wrong. You seem to think you know it all, martial arts styles you don't train, the martial art you do train but don't know, what very experienced instructors know etc so yes I am jumping on words because you are so up yourself it's quite unbelievable. Synonyms for 'up yourself' include 'arrogant', big headed' and 'pompous'. You may not be in 'real life' but you are certainly coming across as an arrogant child here.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Technically, it's pretty easy.



My mother told me never to hit a man when he's down...she said kick him, it's easier.


----------



## Axiom

[


Tez3 said:


> Oh I am cut to the quick, dear boy, how could you!
> Actually and I don't know how to break this to you, I have a first class (1:1) degree in English language and literature from a top British university which is why I sound as if I'm right...because I am..



No, you're not. It's perfectly correct to state "Do you know what the word X entails", if the context in which the word is used is already understood.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> [
> 
> 
> No, you're not. It's perfectly correct to state "Do you know what the word X entails", if the context in which the word is used is already understood.



Actually to be perfectly correct you are incorrect. Words don't actually 'entail' anything they are words, actions entail.
Question. 'do you know what boxing entails?' Boxing being a verb, known by small children as a 'doing word' therefore an action. You asked what continuous entailed continuous is an adjective, 'a describing word' so nothing can be 'entailed' in an adjective only a noun.

Now to the context, it was clear to us that you didn't understand what was meant by continuous fighting and you then questioned another poster in a sarcastic manner asking if they understood what it meant so I felt I had to explicate to counter your logorrhea.


Of course one doesn't need to go to such lengths to explain words, generally we understand each other quite well without explanations of words but you my friend don't seem to understand that what you do when you post is insist on being pedantic about TKD, about testing for grades, about breaking, about boxing and now about Muay Thai. You lay down absolutes and tell us it is this way because you say it is. You get annoyed because I pick up on your use of words, but what you are doing to everyone here is telling them they are wrong, perhaps you can now understand how annoying it is when someone who has only trained for a couple of years and hasn't gained his black belt yet is telling instructors who have trained for decades they are wrong. if you listen and inwardly digest what people are saying, conversations will be more productive, no one is saying you don't have anything of worth to contribute but that you are a beginner, a novice and you are sounding off like a arrogant schoolboy. Calm down, listen more than you speak, read more than you write and I will stop picking up your words and others will treat you with more respect. ( not me though, I think you're a twit)


----------



## Jaeimseu

Axiom said:


> That's a separate matter. Fact is that WTF TaeKwondo is for all intents and purposes a stop format, despite being full contact.



Um, it's really not. Players may stop themselves, but they are free to continuously attack unless stopped by the referee. What experience do you have with WTF rules sparring other than seeing a few YouTube clips? Do you really think you've got it all figured out after four years of training?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> the rules of MT preclude you using techniques other than MT so you cannot get a comparison.



I have to disagree on this one. Muay Thai rules not only allow the vast majority of TKD techniques, they actually allow a much higher percentage of the techniques in the art of TKD than TKD competition rules do. Theoretically, MT competition should be a better test for TKD (the martial art) than the sport of TKD is.

The same can't be said going the other direction, since TKD rules disallow 80+% of the MT arsenal.



Axiom said:


> I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist. This despite the fact that all strikes in Muay Thai are also in TaeKwondo! My reasons may surprise you.
> 
> 1. Footwork. TKDoins are often renowned for their speedy  and light footwork. However, being light on your feet in a Thaiboxing ring also carries the disadvantage of being easier to knock OFF your feet. Thaiboxers in comparision are more flat footed but rock solid to the ground. Getting put on your butt repeatedly will wear and tear on you. And this will happen even more easily with one foot up in the air kicking..
> 
> 2. The kicks.  This ties in to the point above. TaeKwondo kicks are snappy and quick of the feet, but makes one liable to get pushed off balance in a rule set in which you can actually grabb and push down kicks. Stability will once again be a major question mark. This is demoralising in the long run and, the kicks you perfected in the dojang won't get you as many points (or KO'S) as you might have previously though..
> 
> 3. The hands. To break a skilled Muay Thai fighters defence in the ring you will need to soften him/her up with boxing, and/ or have a boxing defence to punches. Kicking alone will not get the job done against a legit guy(especially not concidering 1 and 2). TKD guys are not drilled in either offense or defence to the level required.
> 
> 4. No clinch. This can be modified in theory, but I will list it here given that most clubs neglect it.
> 
> 5. Lack of Continious fighting. TKD is geared towards one strike, one victory philosophy. Even WTF rules that allow full contact break after making contact. It will be an adjustment for a TKD fighter simply fight on and is definately puts him/her in a slight psychological disadvantage, compared to the thaifighter.
> 
> Feel free to comment and disagree on any of the points!



1 & 2: Incorrect. The TKD stance, footwork, and kicks are not inherently more unstable than the MT stance, footwork, and kicks.

3: Eh. I personally prefer a boxing approach to punching, but the TKD approach can work if it's trained to a high enough level. The real reason you tend to see a higher level of punching in MT comes down to two main factors:
     a) Most MT fighters are professionals, while most TKD practitioners are hobbyists.
     b) A high percentage of TKD practitioners who do train like professionals are preparing for a sport where punching isn't rewarded nearly so much.

4: Oh yes. The MT clinch is a highly developed weapon which does not have an equivalent in TKD.

5: Nah. Lots of TKD practitioners train for continuous fighting.

Drop bear provided evidence above that it is possible for TKD practitioners to compete successfully under MT rules. As far as why you don't see more of them do so (even though it would allow them to use more of their art than TKD competition does), I'll provide a few ideas.


As noted above, most TKD practitioners are hobbyists. MT competition is dominated by professionals. In Thailand you have kids starting to fight at age 12 to help support their families.
Many TKD competitors are more interested in the sport of TKD than the full martial art. Sport TKD has it's own focus and an athlete who enjoys that particular kind of competition may not have any particular drive to compete in a different format which would bring different techniques to the forefront.
In MT competition, knees, elbows, and low kicks are important. These techniques exist in TKD, but most schools don't emphasize them to the extent they would need to in order to build successful fighters in the MT arena. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, but most don't.
The clinch. As mentioned above, this is hugely important in MT. TKD has no real equivalent and this skill would need to be developed for success under MT rules.


----------



## Axiom

Jaeimseu said:


> Players may stop themselves, but they are free to continuously attack unless stopped by the referee.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's what I meant.


----------



## TrueJim

You know, there's a whole website devoted to this topic: Home


----------



## CB Jones

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have to disagree on this one. Muay Thai rules not only allow the vast majority of TKD techniques, they actually allow a much higher percentage of the techniques in the art of TKD than TKD competition rules do. Theoretically, MT competition should be a better test for TKD (the martial art) than the sport of TKD is.
> 
> The same can't be said going the other direction, since TKD rules disallow 80+% of the MT arsenal.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 & 2: Incorrect. The TKD stance, footwork, and kicks are not inherently more unstable than the MT stance, footwork, and kicks.
> 
> 3: Eh. I personally prefer a boxing approach to punching, but the TKD approach can work if it's trained to a high enough level. The real reason you tend to see a higher level of punching in MT comes down to two main factors:
> a) Most MT fighters are professionals, while most TKD practitioners are hobbyists.
> b) A high percentage of TKD practitioners who do train like professionals are preparing for a sport where punching isn't rewarded nearly so much.
> 
> 4: Oh yes. The MT clinch is a highly developed weapon which does not have an equivalent in TKD.
> 
> 5: Nah. Lots of TKD practitioners train for continuous fighting.
> 
> Drop bear provided evidence above that it is possible for TKD practitioners to compete successfully under MT rules. As far as why you don't see more of them do so (even though it would allow them to use more of their art than TKD competition does), I'll provide a few ideas.
> 
> 
> As noted above, most TKD practitioners are hobbyists. MT competition is dominated by professionals. In Thailand you have kids starting to fight at age 12 to help support their families.
> Many TKD competitors are more interested in the sport of TKD than the full martial art. Sport TKD has it's own focus and an athlete who enjoys that particular kind of competition may not have any particular drive to compete in a different format which would bring different techniques to the forefront.
> In MT competition, knees, elbows, and low kicks are important. These techniques exist in TKD, but most schools don't emphasize them to the extent they would need to in order to build successful fighters in the MT arena. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, but most don't.
> The clinch. As mentioned above, this is hugely important in MT. TKD has no real equivalent and this skill would need to be developed for success under MT rules.



Well put!


----------



## Axiom

Tony Dismukes said:


> 1 & 2: Incorrect. The TKD stance, footwork, and kicks are not inherently more unstable than the MT stance, footwork, and kicks.



This has been tested. The TaeKwondo guy kicked the hardest (probably mostly due to genetics) but when they had them stand on a rolling platform-- the TKDoin was struggling and constantly out of balance, while the Muay Thai guy was almost equally solid as on the non moving platform.

I didn't claim the footwork was instable , it is however incompatible with thaifighting, (unless you're one bad MFO)


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> This has been tested. The TaeKwondo guy kicked the hardest (probably mostly due to genetics) but when they had them stand on a rolling platform-- the TKDoin was struggling and constantly out of balance, while the Muay Thai guy was almost equally solid as on the non moving platform.
> 
> I didn't claim the footwork was instable , it is however incompatible with thaifighting, (unless you're one bad MFO)



Did it really prove it was more unstable or was it proved for that test the MT kick was better suited?


----------



## Axiom

CB Jones said:


> Did it really prove it was more unstable or was it proved for that test the MT kick was better suited?



I took that to mean that the Muay Thai guy had better balance, which is probably due to his more solid footwork. Something like that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I took that to mean that the Muay Thai guy had better balance, which is probably due to his more solid footwork. Something like that.


I don't know the exact test, but by your description, it would seem to demonstrate that the MT kick has less lateral force (rotating more in place), which will matter a lot on a platform that can roll in response to that force, but wouldn't make much difference on a stable platform.


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> I took that to mean that the Muay Thai guy had better balance, which is probably due to his more solid footwork. Something like that.



How was the test set up was what I was asking

Test might not have check balance.  TKD kick thrown in same direction of wheels rolling allowing the platform to roll away and dampen the power.

Whereas a MY kick thrown at a direction across the direction if the wheels would maintain its power better.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> This has been tested. The TaeKwondo guy kicked the hardest (probably mostly due to genetics) but when they had them stand on a rolling platform-- the TKDoin was struggling and constantly out of balance, while the Muay Thai guy was almost equally solid as on the non moving platform.
> 
> I didn't claim the footwork was instable , it is however incompatible with thaifighting, (unless you're one bad MFO)


Well as long as they don't fight on a rolling platform they're all good


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> Muay Thai rules not only allow the vast majority of TKD techniques, they actually allow a much higher percentage of the techniques in the art of TKD than TKD competition rules do. Theoretically, MT competition should be a better test for TKD (the martial art) than the sport of TKD is.



 I was thinking less about techniques and more about the rules. If a TKD person turned up in a dobok looking to do TKD they he wouldn't be allowed in the ring, nor would a women in Thailand, though one or two are managing to fight. To the Thais the techniques in MT are theirs. To expect to fight in the Lumpini for example as a TKDist would be considered an insult.


----------



## JR 137

MA_Student said:


> Frankly this a pointless discussion as THEY'RE DIFFERENT SPORTS. It's like comparing how a basketball player would do in a football match. They're different games different rules, different objectives different everything


Yeah, but they use a similar size and shaped ball, so aren't they really the same thing?

Edit: this assumes by football, you mean what I call soccer.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I was thinking less about techniques and more about the rules. If a TKD person turned up in a dobok looking to do TKD they he wouldn't be allowed in the ring, nor would a women in Thailand, though one or two are managing to fight. To the Thais the techniques in MT are theirs. To expect to fight in the Lumpini for example as a TKDist would be considered an insult.



Yes. Mas Oyamas Kyokushin-Kais did not fight in the Lumpini stadium with Karate gis--- (and win 2-1 btw) Nope... Didn't happen because Tez said it wouldn't.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Yes. Mas Oyamas Kyokushin-Kais did not fight in the Lumpini stadium with Karate gis--- (and win 2-1 btw) Nope... Didn't happen because Tez said it wouldn't.


Stop embarassing yourself


----------



## Gnarlie

Some time in your journey you get past the 'this vs that' mentality. For a lot of people, that happens before first dan. For others, later. Either way, those who are past it make better martial artists because they tend to look deeper into what they themselves are doing rather than comparing themselves to others. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> Some time in your journey you get past the 'this vs that' mentality. For a lot of people, that happens before first dan. For others, later. Either way, those who are past it make better martial artists because they tend to look deeper into what they themselves are doing rather than comparing themselves to others.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



 So Lawrence Kenshins praised striking analysis/style vs style videos is just a lack of enlightment? Lawrence Kenshin


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Frankly this a pointless discussion as THEY'RE DIFFERENT *SPORTS*. It's like comparing how a basketball player would do in a football match. They're different games different rules, different objectives different everything



Except of course that TaeKwonDo is also a *martial art* Stop referring to it as a sport. It's bad enough as it is.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Yes. Mas Oyamas Kyokushin-Kais did not fight in the Lumpini stadium with Karate gis--- (and win 2-1 btw) Nope... Didn't happen because Tez said it wouldn't.



Ooh love, getting bitchy now. I really think you need to take that grow up pill now. I assume you mean the fight that was alleged to have taken place in 54? or the 1962 one or the 1964? with karateka, you know the ones that do karate? 

Shall I explain it again. I said turning.... up.... in.... a.... dobok..... looking.... to... do... Muay ..Thai. They won't let you fight Muay Thai in a dobok, the rules state quite plainly you have to wear shorts.

In case you forget.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Except of course that TaeKwonDo is also a *martial art* Stop referring to it as a sport. It's bad enough as it is.


You are the one who referred to the different rules, which refers to the sports.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Ooh love, getting bitchy now. I really think you need to take that grow up pill now. I assume you mean the fight that was alleged to have taken place in 54? or the 1962 one or the 1964? with karateka, you know the ones that do karate?
> 
> Shall I explain it again. I said turning.... up.... in.... a.... dobok..... looking.... to... do... Muay ..Thai. They won't let you fight Muay Thai in a dobok, the rules state quite plainly you have to wear shorts.
> 
> In case you forget.
> 
> View attachment 21001



Lol, that is not what you wrote. You're backpedaling. Alleged? You can watch some of the matches on Youtube in poor quality. It's okey to admit that you did not know that people were allowed to fight in the Lumpine stadium in traditional martial arts gis and that challenge matches took place. It's also okey to admit that you did not know that Thairules also allowed rival striking techniques.

Stop being so proud.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> You are the one who referred to the different rules, which refers to the sports.



I was contrasting two two martial arts fought under some type of rule to make it a technique match-up, not just some brawl on the street. And Thairules are excellent striking rules IMO.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I was contrasting two two martial arts fought under some type of rule to make it a technique match-up, not just some brawl on the street. And Thairules are excellent striking rules IMO.


None of that has anything to do with the fact that you brought in the two rulesets, which is a reference to the two sporting aspects. If we ignore the TKD rules (so we're not referring to sport TKD), then you also have to remove some of the points you made in your OP, because they reference the rules.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> So Lawrence Kenshins praised striking analysis/style vs style videos is just a lack of enlightment? Lawrence Kenshin


No, but this thread certainly is. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> None of that has anything to do with the fact that you brought in the two rulesets, which is a reference to the two sporting aspects. If we ignore the TKD rules (so we're not referring to sport TKD), then you also have to remove some of the points you made in your OP, because they reference the rules.



Because of how TKD is universally trained. I also pointed out how some of those points were possible to be modified (and would be in the event of preperation ahead of a challenge match) but that it wouldn't change the outcome IMO.

The fundamental flaw  in my opinion is in the footwork. But I frankly don't think TKD kicking makes much sense without it, thus my statement that it is "incompatible" with a thairuleset against a thaifighter.


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> No, but this thread certainly is.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Of course not. Only when I do it.


----------



## Axiom

And btw, the WTF drove Taekwondo footwork and other things to a higher level in TKD competition. It is not without its benefits. But I don't believe in it in the long run under the conditions mentioned. Just my opinion.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Except of course that TaeKwonDo is also a *martial art* Stop referring to it as a sport. It's bad enough as it is.


If you are talking about competition and rules and strategies and winners and losers then you're talking about a sport


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I was contrasting two two martial arts fought under some type of rule to make it a technique match-up, not just some brawl on the street. And Thairules are excellent striking rules IMO.


Then why don't you go do Muay Thai get some real experience instead of making up rubbish to try and sound clever


----------



## Jaeimseu

Axiom said:


> Because of how TKD is universally trained. I also pointed out how some of those points were possible to be modified (and would be in the event of preperation ahead of a challenge match) but that it wouldn't change the outcome IMO.
> 
> The fundamental flaw  in my opinion is in the footwork. But I frankly don't think TKD kicking makes much sense without it, thus my statement that it is "incompatible" with a thairuleset against a thaifighter.



If you think Taekwondo is "universally" trained a certain way, you really need to get out of the box you're in and open your eyes. 

On a side note, I consider footwork as learned for WTF rules sparring to be as important, if not more so, than kicking techniques. It may not be best suited for a MT ring, but it's not supposed to be, either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Stop being so proud.



You are funny! You say something as if it's a fact then provide no evidence, you've done that a lot of times. In regard to the karate at Lumpinee ( not TKD  you should note) you again say something but don't tell us what you are meaning. You have to understand we can't get into your head and fish out what precisely you are meaning. You then say 'oh there's videos' well post up what you are talking about, I know nothing about TKD v Muay Thai at the Lumpinee. If there is something don't allude to it prove it. If you say it's karate then tell us times, dates and videos. You seem to think being vague is a virtue, you tell us 'lots of people know this', 'many people do that', 'it's well know that...' yet that's all it is. 



Axiom said:


> The fundamental flaw in my opinion is in the footwork.



Arrogance.


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Because of how TKD is universally trained. I also pointed out how some of those points were possible to be modified (and would be in the event of preperation ahead of a challenge match) but that it wouldn't change the outcome IMO.
> 
> The fundamental flaw  in my opinion is in the footwork. But I frankly don't think TKD kicking makes much sense without it, thus my statement that it is "incompatible" with a thairuleset against a thaifighter.



See TKD definitely works with standard footwork. When TKD guys move in to other combat sports they throw kicks fine. 

Kyukoshin is almost sorta kind of TKD with Orthodox footwork.


----------



## Axiom

Jaeimseu said:


> If you think Taekwondo is "universally" trained a certain way, you really need to get out of the box you're in and open your eyes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree with that. Widely is perhaps a better word.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Kyukoshin is almost sorta kind of TKD with Orthodox footwork.



Kyokushin sparring tactics is about as foreign to TKD as it can get. You couldn't have picked a better one

TKDoins aren't  taught to kick with the shin, for starters. That's about as fundamental difference in kicking as it can get without doing capoera!


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Kyokushin sparring tactics is about as foreign to TKD as it can get. You couldn't have picked a better one
> 
> TKDoins aren't  taught to kick with the shin, for starters. That's about as fundamental difference in kicking as it can get without doing capoera!



So TKD don't do that forward knee kick thing. Rather than the Thai swinging kick?


----------



## Axiom

Jaeimseu said:


> On a side note, I consider footwork as learned for WTF rules sparring to be as important, if not more so, than kicking techniques. It may not be best suited for a MT ring, but it's not supposed to be, either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree (again!) although you have to agree that Thairules don't exactly discriminate a TaeKwondo stylist, since more tools are given, not less, unlike in the TKD sparring.  Well except perhaps the ring...


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> So TKD don't do that forward knee kick thing. Rather than the Thai swinging kick?



They sure do, but they don't kick with the shin, which both Kyokushin and Muay Thai guys do. Kyokushin does teach the instep and ball of the foot as alternatives, though. 

The Thai swing is of course not found in TaeKwondo. The TKD turning kick has the benefit of not having your back turned if the kicks fails. But Thais don't seem to care about that.

You see that in the UFC a lot, when their Thai roundhouse kicks miss.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> They sure do, but they don't kick with the shin, which both Kyokushin and Muay Thai guys do. Kyokushin does teach the instep and ball of the foot as alternatives, though.
> 
> The Thai swing is of course not found in TaeKwondo. The TKD turning kick has the benefit of not having your back turned if the kicks fails. But Thais don't seem to care about that.
> 
> You see that in the UFC a lot, when their Thai roundhouse kicks miss.


You ever do kyokushin?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You are funny! You say something as if it's a fact then provide no evidence, you've done that a lot of times. In regard to the karate at Lumpinee ( not TKD  you should note) you again say something but don't tell us what you are meaning. You have to understand we can't get into your head and fish out what precisely you are meaning. You then say 'oh there's videos' well post up what you are talking about, I know nothing about TKD v Muay Thai at the Lumpinee. If there is something don't allude to it prove it. If you say it's karate then tell us times, dates and videos. You seem to think being vague is a virtue, you tell us 'lots of people know this', 'many people do that', 'it's well know that...' yet that's all it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Arrogance.



Oh, please. You wrote TKD *as an example*. I will forgive you if you simply forgot that there were Japanese Karatekas in traditional gis kicking butt in that very stadium. It just struck me as a whoopsie on your part to think that the Thais would be insulted by it when we have actual history showing something else.


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> They sure do, but they don't kick with the shin, which both Kyokushin and Muay Thai guys do. Kyokushin does teach the instep and ball of the foot as alternatives, though.
> 
> The Thai swing is of course not found in TaeKwondo. The TKD turning kick has the benefit of not having your back turned if the kicks fails. But Thais don't seem to care about that.
> 
> You see that in the UFC a lot, when their Thai roundhouse kicks miss.



Yeah. I dont think coverting to the shin is that big a step though.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> You see that in the *UFC* a lot, when their Thai roundhouse kicks miss.



I suppose you understand that it's MMA and the UFC is a business?

You do serve a delightful smorgasbord of nonsense.

Sooooo how many styles have you trained in, what's your Muay Thai fight record? How many fights have you had, how many students do you instruct or are you in fact a casserole of ridiculousness?


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> So TKD don't do that forward knee kick thing. Rather than the Thai swinging kick?



I just answered that they do (one variation of it, the other is a male dog pinking chambering), if I understand what you mean by forward knee correctly. I'm not sure what your point is. The thai kick is very different from the TaeKwondo kick. The Kyokushin one has close ties to the thaikick . It's kind of a hybrid between a TaeKwondo and Muay Thai kick. My point was however that once the shin is involved, I don't think it's comparable to a TKD stylist.

Anyway, all three are perfectly fine kicking motions.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Oh, please. You wrote TKD *as an example*. I will forgive you if you simply forgot that there were Japanese Karatekas in traditional gis kicking butt in that very stadium. It just struck me as a whoopsie on your part to think that the Thais would be insulted by it when we have actual history showing something else.



Sweetie, I've forgotten nothing, I asked you to show us what you were talking about, you are presenting a very muddled story of Mas Oyama in Thailand fighting in Muay Thai. I asked you what year and to show us what you mean.

How do you know what Thais are insulted by? My club is sponsored by Fairtex, we send fighters to train with theirs ( not the tourist place) our instructor is in Thailand a couple of times a year, he's done this for 20 years or more trust me he knows better than you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Because of how TKD is universally trained. I also pointed out how some of those points were possible to be modified (and would be in the event of preperation ahead of a challenge match) but that it wouldn't change the outcome IMO.
> 
> The fundamental flaw  in my opinion is in the footwork. But I frankly don't think TKD kicking makes much sense without it, thus my statement that it is "incompatible" with a thairuleset against a thaifighter.


Your original post stated that it was a problem with the system, and cited the rules as part of the system. Now you state it is *universally* ("in every instance or place; without exception") trained that way. That's hyperbolic, at least, and unlikely to be true.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Sweetie, I've forgotten nothing, I asked you to show us what you were talking about,.



I was referring to the challenge match in 1964.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Your original post stated that it was a problem with the system, and cited the rules as part of the system. Now you state it is *universally* ("in every instance or place; without exception") trained that way. That's hyperbolic, at least, and unlikely to be true.



Yeah, I don't know why I used that word. I don't agree with myself (how about that?).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Kyokushin sparring tactics is about as foreign to TKD as it can get. You couldn't have picked a better one
> 
> TKDoins aren't  taught to kick with the shin, for starters. That's about as fundamental difference in kicking as it can get without doing capoera!


The difference between kicking with the shin and the instep is not all that fundamental. I do both, because they both work from the same kick.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Mas Oyamas Kyokushin-Kais



This is where you said Mas Oyama. Btw we do know he founded Kyokushin karate.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Yeah, I don't know why I used that word. I don't agree with myself (how about that?).


No one else does either


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> The difference between kicking with the shin and the instep is not all that fundamental. I do both, because they both work from the same kick.



It's a massive difference. You can't say "look at those guys winning with the chin as the point of impact"- "therefore TKD kicks will probably work in that ring as well". No dude. Just no.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> It's a massive difference. You can't say "look at those guys winning with the chin as the point of impact"- "therefore TKD kicks will probably work in that ring as well". No dude. Just no.


The difference is slight. I made the change one day while working at the heavy bag. I'm not some martial arts genius, nor even a great kicker. It's easy to swap back and forth - probably easier for those originally taught to kick with the instep (as I was).

EDIT: And turn down the attitude. Back your claim, or accept that someone disagrees based on their own experience (which is much longer than your own).


----------



## Headhunter

My god is this guy still going...


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> The difference is slight. I made the change one day while working at the heavy bag. I'm not some martial arts genius, nor even a great kicker. It's easy to swap back and forth - probably easier for those originally taught to kick with the instep (as I was).
> ).



Yeal well kicking a bag with the chin and a person are two different things.


----------



## MA_Student

gpseymour said:


> The difference is slight. I made the change one day while working at the heavy bag. I'm not some martial arts genius, nor even a great kicker. It's easy to swap back and forth - probably easier for those originally taught to kick with the instep (as I was).
> 
> EDIT: And turn down the attitude. Back your claim, or accept that someone disagrees based on their own experience (which is much longer than your own).


Oh come on he obviously has got all the answers I mean he's been training 4 years so he obviously knows it all about martial arts now right...


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I was referring to the challenge match in 1964.



LOL, the one where they used Judo throws to win against the MT fighters?

this from an interview with an interview with Kenji Kurosaki, Osamu Noguchi. It might also explain why they don't want karateka or TKDoists in their ring. Never underestimate national pride.

"
In February 12, 1964, 3 Kyokushin fighters (Tadashi Nakamura, Kenji Kurosaki and Akio Fujihira) fought 3 Muay Thai fighters (Tan Charan, Rabi Dechashi, Huafai Lukcontai) in the Lumpinee stadium in Thailand. Actually Kurosaki was there as trainer&coach, but Oyama and Okada (the originally planned 3rd fighter) had to return to japan after the fight had been delayed several times.
The end result was kyokushin:2 vs Muaythai:1
The kyokushin fighters had won by KO (by Highkick in rnd 1 by Nakamura, and punch in rnd 2 by Fujihira) and lost one by doctor stoppage (due to a bleeding cut over Kurosakis eyebrow from a elbow in the final round).
*The Thais have been doing their best to ignore that this event ever took place ever since then.* Downplaying the skill of the thai fighters (despite them being top ranked at the time) and focusing on their more successful later challenges to american karate kicboxing etc -that forged their reputation as unbeatable in standup fighting.

Kurosaki, then second in command in kyokushin, later became a pioneer and basically founder of japanese kickboxing. A legendary trainer and coach. His Gym, The Mejiro Gym spawned  many legendary fighters (Toshio Fujiwara being the most famous), and strongly influenced dutch kickboxing (the dutch mejiro gym was founded by his students).

Fujihira became a champion kickboxer (training under Kurosaki) under the fightname Noboru Ozawa. Nakamura founded the world seido karate organization"


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Yeal well kicking a bag with the chin and a person are two different things.


What, precisely, are you claiming are the fundamental differences between kicking with the shin (not "chin") and instep? What, in your deep, many decades of experience, am I missing?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> LOL, the one where they used Judo throws to win against the MT fighters?



They knocked them out with punches to the face.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Yeal well kicking a bag with the chin and a person are two different things.



How do you kick a bag with your chin?


----------



## MA_Student

Tez3 said:


> How do you kick a bag with your chin?


Chin butting is the ultimate weapon in martial arts now lol


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> How do you kick a bag with your chin?


Hey, if you're pissed enough....


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> They knocked them out with punches to the face.



You were there then. You can verify they didn't use even one Judo throw as witnesses say they did?

I don't know, just reporting what has been said, always worth looking at all the witnesses' accounts. You're the man with all the answers, you must have been there.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> Hey, if you're pissed enough....



I rarely drink though and never get pissed. Seen a few Glasgow kisses though, big ouch. Our instructor actually taught us how to do a proper headbutt!


----------



## MA_Student

Okay I'm done with this thread I feel like I'm losing the will to live reading all this nonsense


----------



## Axiom

.,,


----------



## Axiom

ANyway, sorry ,if I offended anyone. I am very depressed. and a total loser (that one you got right). Bye


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Axiom said:


> I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist.


A professional MT fighter only has 6 years of their life that can be spent in the ring. Since not that many MA systems train as hard as the MT system, IMO, to compare MT with other MA system is like to compare "professional" and "nonprofessional". It's not fair.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> The difference between kicking with the shin and the instep is not all that fundamental. I do both, because they both work from the same kick.



And for things like head kicks. Which you would probably expect from a TKD fighter instep is fine.


----------



## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A professional MT fighter only has 6 years of their life that can be spent in the ring. Since not that many MA systems train as hard as the MT system, IMO, to compare MT with other MA system is like to compare "professional" and "nonprofessional". It's not fair.



How long has mark hunt or Wayne parr been going for?


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> I just answered that they do (one variation of it, the other is a male dog pinking chambering), if I understand what you mean by forward knee correctly. I'm not sure what your point is. The thai kick is very different from the TaeKwondo kick. The Kyokushin one has close ties to the thaikick . It's kind of a hybrid between a TaeKwondo and Muay Thai kick. My point was however that once the shin is involved, I don't think it's comparable to a TKD stylist.
> 
> Anyway, all three are perfectly fine kicking motions.



OK. But head kicks?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And for things like head kicks. Which you would probably expect from a TKD fighter instep is fine.


Agreed. The more I work with shin kicks, the more I wonder why NGA teaches instep kicks. Shin fits us better.


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> That's what I meant.



Do you think a Muay Thai match is two fighters taking turns comboing on each other with no natural breaks in the fight? Just two people hitting the other non stop?


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist. This despite the fact that all strikes in Muay Thai are also in TaeKwondo! My reasons may surprise you.
> 
> 1. Footwork. TKDoins are often renowned for their speedy  and light footwork. However, being light on your feet in a Thaiboxing ring also carries the disadvantage of being easier to knock OFF your feet. Thaiboxers in comparision are more flat footed but rock solid to the ground. Getting put on your butt repeatedly will wear and tear on you. And this will happen even more easily with one foot up in the air kicking..
> 
> 2. The kicks.  This ties in to the point above. TaeKwondo kicks are snappy and quick of the feet, but makes one liable to get pushed off balance in a rule set in which you can actually grabb and push down kicks. Stability will once again be a major question mark. This is demoralising in the long run and, the kicks you perfected in the dojang won't get you as many points (or KO'S) as you might have previously though..
> 
> 3. The hands. To break a skilled Muay Thai fighters defence in the ring you will need to soften him/her up with boxing, and/ or have a boxing defence to punches. Kicking alone will not get the job done against a legit guy(especially not concidering 1 and 2). TKD guys are not drilled in either offense or defence to the level required.
> 
> 4. No clinch. This can be modified in theory, but I will list it here given that most clubs neglect it.
> 
> 5. Lack of Continious fighting. TKD is geared towards one strike, one victory philosophy. Even WTF rules that allow full contact break after making contact. It will be an adjustment for a TKD fighter simply fight on and is definately puts him/her in a slight psychological disadvantage, compared to the thaifighter.
> 
> Feel free to comment and disagree on any of the points!



1. Thai footwork is not as rock solid as you seem to think it is. It is very balanced in motion, but always very light on the front foot. This backweighted stance is great for checking kicks, but poor for movement and is also a little unstable. Thai fighters knock eachother around quite a bit actually. 
TKD footwork is far beyond MT in mobility and distance control. This is the main strength and it is pretty effective against MT. At long range TKD dominates. 
Both footwork styles have their strengths and requirements. 
MT-nerves/legs of steel. TKD-agility and stamina for days. 

2. The main strength in the kicking style is the fast, non-telegraphic, linear nature of tkd kicking. And tkd practitioners are very used to people trying to kick them in this manner and get very good at avoiding them. High level tkd sees every MT kick from a mile away and has the footwork to avoid it. 
TKD fighters are also generally very skilled in landing and avoiding headkicks.
Basically TKD's non telegraphic and extremely fast kicks are difficult for other styles to see coming and deal with.

3. The hands are a toss up. They can be trained to a high level in either system. I've seen fighters in both styles have incredible boxing skills. 
The main difference is the guard and tactics. Again TKD/Shotokan striking thrives long range. The main defenses for punching are parries and footwork/movement. Where as MT goes with a high guard/cover. Good for deflection and elbow delivery, but harder to use sophisticated hand strikes.

4. No striking art can touch Muay Thai's clinch game. This is the heart of Thai Boxing to me. The unique flavor

5. I already made a point on this in another post, but there are always natural breaks in a match. Be it TKD, MT, Boxing. There is distance finding and chesswork in each discipline. 

This is what I have found to be true in my personal experience


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The more I work with shin kicks, the more I wonder why NGA teaches instep kicks. Shin fits us better.



A bit quicker.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> A bit quicker.


I'll have to consider that. I'm not sure mine are, but I'm not a fantastic kicker.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I'll have to consider that. I'm not sure mine are, but I'm not a fantastic kicker.



There is even a thai kick that almost hits with the inside ankle.


----------



## Archtkd

Axiom said:


> [
> 
> 
> No, you're not. It's perfectly correct to state "Do you know what the word X entails", if the context in which the word is used is already understood.


Actually words don't entail.


----------



## Archtkd

Axiom said:


> And btw, the WTF drove Taekwondo footwork and other things to a higher level in TKD competition. It is not without its benefits. But I don't believe in it in the long run under the conditions mentioned. Just my opinion.


Exactly how did the World Taekwondo Federation drive footwork in Taekwondo? Please provide us with one, just one documented example of that. Also in another line you stated there is a "universal" way that taekwondo footwork was taught. Elaborate on that. Does universal mean your dojang, little town, village? Where can the curriculum for this "universal" way of teaching taekwondo footwork be found and who developed it? Please be precise with concrete examples.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> ANyway, sorry ,if I offended anyone. I am very depressed. and a total loser (that one you got right). Bye


Dude no one has ever called you that on here and if you have depression you need to get yourself help for that. No one is offended but you have been rude and condenseding to a number of people here so you know they're going to say stuff back that's what people do. You're not a loser man just get the help you need from the doctors. 

Peace


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> And btw, the WTF drove Taekwondo footwork and other things to a higher level in TKD competition. It is not without its benefits. But I don't believe in it in the long run under the conditions mentioned. Just my opinion.



Which TKD footwork are you talking about? You do understand that there are at least a couple dozen different styles of TKD, right? And that all of them have their own idea of how things ought to be done (they're all wrong, of course, except for the style I teach... ;p)? And the only thing you accomplish by pretending there is some Universal True TKD Rule is to make yourself look foolish?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> The discussion was using a TKD system - footwork, kicks, punches, knees, elbows, throws, against A Muay Thai system.


The discussion was using ONLY the TKD system YOU are familiar with against a Muay Thai system


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> There is even a thai kick that almost hits with the inside ankle.


That one I'd need to learn from someone. It sounds like a good one to injure yourself with if you don't know what you're doing.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Using the system I am familiar with:

1) We spar in a back stance with our feet planted firmly but with the legs bent for agility and balance. there's no bouncing around.

2) Our kicks are designed for power and finishing opponents quickly and most are fast enough to not be easily grabbed.

3) We have a wide range of hand techniques, both defensive and offensive and they too are designed for maximum power and effectiveness.

4) We don't use the clinch offensively but have techniques to deal with someone trying to grab in a similar fashion. Also for the record the TKD used at the Olympics has clinches.

5) With the exception of step sparring all of our sparring is continuous.

Our style is pretty much the opposite of what you are describing. Would it break down in a Muay Thai ring according to you?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I'm going to start a thread...why Judo falls down in fencing competitions.


Aren't you supposed to fall down in Judo sometimes?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> 5) With the exception of step sparring all of our sparring is continuous.


Sorry I had to pick at this one RTKDCMB. When I read it, my brain (pre-coffee) simply read it as, "Except for the non-continuous stuff, all our sparring is continuous."  I had to re-read it to get your point.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Which TKD footwork are you talking about? You do understand that there are at least a couple dozen different styles of TKD, ri



Kukkiwon Taekwondo



RTKDCMB said:


> Using the system I am familiar with:
> 
> 1) We spar in a back stance with our feet planted firmly but with the legs bent for agility and balance. there's no bouncing around.
> 
> 2) Our kicks are designed for power and finishing opponents quickly and most are fast enough to not be easily grabbed.
> 
> 3) We have a wide range of hand techniques, both defensive and offensive and they too are designed for maximum power and effectiveness.
> 
> 4) We don't use the clinch offensively but have techniques to deal with someone trying to grab in a similar fashion. Also for the record the TKD used at the Olympics has clinches.
> 
> 5) With the exception of step sparring all of our sparring is continuous.
> 
> Our style is pretty much the opposite of what you are describing. Would it break down in a Muay Thai ring according to you?



Is your style an ITF-off shoot? Most ITF guys do in fact bounce around. There's been so much interbreeding of techniques as well that an ITF competitor looks very much like a WTF one nowdays.... As for your question, if what you're saying is that you're doing solid kickboxing sparring with hard contact, then I in fact don't think it will break down.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Using the system I am familiar with:
> 
> 1) We spar in a back stance with our feet planted firmly but with the legs bent for agility and balance. there's no bouncing around.
> 
> 2) Our kicks are designed for power and finishing opponents quickly and most are fast enough to not be easily grabbed.



A Kukkiwon competitor is twice as fast in their footwork and will run circles around you. But sure, if you got knockout power, go for it. Have you ever sparred a Thai guy?


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> Aren't you supposed to fall down in Judo sometimes?



I thought I'd be punny.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> The discussion was using ONLY the TKD system YOU are familiar with against a Muay Thai system



I'm ITF.  Fighters of both of the two main federations (WTF/ITF) will be on the behinds if they do jumping back kicks, you know, the types of techniques that actually signify taekwondo from other arts. If you just throw old school roundhouse kicks, you might as well go in there as a KickBoxer.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Is your style an ITF-off shoot? Most ITF guys do in fact bounce around.





Axiom said:


> A Kukkiwon competitor is twice as fast in their footwork





Axiom said:


> A Kukkiwon competitor is twice as fast in their footwork and will run circles around you



Which competitor is this, do you have their name?


Why do you generalise so much? You state things as if what a few may do is done by all. I don't know that much about TKD beyond the basics but I do read what people who have been doing it for years say, that way I actually learn.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Which competitor is this, do you have their name?
> 
> 
> Why do you generalise so much? You state things as if what a few may do is done by all. I don't know that much about TKD beyond the basics but I do read what people who have been doing it for years say, that way I actually learn.



Because I have done both styles of TKD..Olympic style is speedy and drills you like a boxer, but for kicking. The ITF is more traditional, and it shows in the resulting footwork. There is less of a science to the ITF sparring curriculum. In fact, my school has no science to sparring at all. They just put on gloves and say spar. This is an unusually poor structure, perhaps, but in no way is the ITF comparable.


----------



## Axiom

The WTF guys are like the equivalence of WKF in Karate, and the ITF equivalent to Japan Karate Association.

Compare a JKA guy with a WKF, and you have  good idea on how much faster WKF guys really are. Their training is totally different.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Kukkiwon Taekwondo



And what, exactly, is your training and experience with kukki TKD?



> Is your style an ITF-off shoot?



No. I teach Moo Duk Kwan TKD, which has no connection with the ITF.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Because I have done both styles of TKD..Olympic style is speedy and drills you like a boxer, but for kicking. The ITF is more traditional, and it shows in the resulting footwork. There is less of a science to the ITF sparring curriculum. In fact, my school has no science to sparring at all. They just put on gloves and say spar. This is an unusually poor structure, perhaps, but in no way is the ITF comparable.



What if it's specific instructors or specific schools rather than the whole organisation which is after all world wide? How do you know that the places you trained at are absolutes for their style? Why do you stay at a place you say has poor structure and no 'science' ( whatever that means) in sparring?

I've seen training at an ITF place, they did all the things normally seen in TKD, patterns, one and three step etc, the only different was they had a squad of people who also did Olympic style sparring because they liked competing, not all the students did and frankly the classes looked exactly like every other TKD class I'd seen. I'm sure there were differences that a TKD person could point out between organisations as I could with a karate class but the Olympic sparring was a separate class. The sparring they did was what I'd call 'normal' sparring done with hands and feet. If this isn't  a normal thing I'm sure an experienced TKD instructor or two will tell me but the info we get from you I find unsatisfactory.


----------



## Tez3

I've also watched WTF classes, they do them up here in the Infantry Training School with the Gurkha recruits, probably one of the most intense and scary classes I've seen. We had one of their instructors come and do a session with our MMA students.
Gurkha Taekwondo – Gurkha Taekwondo Club


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> What if it's specific instructors or specific schools rather than the whole organisation which is after all world wide? How do you know that the places you trained at are absolutes for their style? Why do you stay at a place you say has poor structure and no 'science' ( whatever that means) in sparring?
> 
> I've seen training at an ITF place, they did all the things normally seen in TKD, patterns, one and three step etc, the only different was they had a squad of people who also did Olympic style sparring because they liked competing, not all the students did and frankly the classes looked exactly like every other TKD class I'd seen. I'm sure there were differences that a TKD person could point out between organisations as I could with a karate class but the Olympic sparring was a separate class. The sparring they did was what I'd call 'normal' sparring done with hands and feet. If this isn't  a normal thing I'm sure an experienced TKD instructor or two will tell me but the info we get from you I find unsatisfactory.



Because the curriculums are roughly the same no matter if you do KKW/WTF style in Iran or Norway. The styles are codified


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Fighters of both of the two main federations (WTF/ITF) will be on the behinds if they do jumping back kicks, you know, the types of techniques that actually signify taekwondo from other arts.



Do you mean Tobi ushiro Geri?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Because the curriculums are roughly the same no matter if you do KKW/WTF style in Iran or Norway. The styles are codified



You didn't answer the question. And no, they are not, although the differences are not necessarily something that a beginner would be able to describe.

And not a single word of what you quoted and attributed to me was written by me. Please do not falsely attribute quotes to me.


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> And not a single word of what you quoted and attributed to me was written by me. Please do not falsely attribute quotes to me.



I wrote it but perhaps he's not speaking to me anymore. Certainly hasn't answered my questions. I really do want to know why he is training at a place he derides and obviously doesn't respect.


----------



## drop bear

ok. So here is saenchai. who does flash kicks and also that knee forwards style of kicking.

Ok. He is a thai guy. But there is an indication that someone can ma,e that sort of method work.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> And not a single word of what you quoted and attributed to me was written by me. Please do not falsely attribute quotes to me.



I can't edit it now and it was not my intention to attribute the quote to you.


----------



## MA_Student

So it's my day off work today and me and a couple friends met up at one friends house where his garage is his personal gym with mats down so we decided to do a light spar. One friend has had 1 amateur Muay Thai fight and the other is a taekwondo black belt. I was interested to see it because of this thread. These 2 had never sparred each other before. I wish I had my phone on me so I could've filmed it and shown it here.

Guess what happened....

It was a close even fight. No one dominated anyone both landed good shots both took a few. Can't say who won because no one wins in sparring but it was close so there we are case closed


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> You didn't answer the question. And no, they are not, although the differences are not necessarily something that a beginner would be able to describe..



"Beginner" Are you suggesting that there are fundamental difference within the same styles of TaeKwonDo? That would make absolutely no sense if they share the same sparring format and forms. The differences are usually in emphasis.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> "Beginner" Are you suggesting that there are fundamental difference within the same styles of TaeKwonDo? That would make absolutely no sense if they share the same sparring format and forms. The differences are usually in emphasis.


At four years, yeah still a beginner. You even said so yourself in a post where you stated black belt is for beginners in TKD (paraphrasing).
Not all TKD has the same sparring format. Your confusing TKD with WTF again, and assuming that all TKD does sport/Olympic TKD.
Regarding forms, different styles will have different forms, even if they're all under the TKD umbrella. But regarding 'emphasis', the points you initially made (1, 2, 3 and 5) are a result of the emphasis by your school, and Olympic style TKD sparring. 4 I would agree with since that's a specific technique that AFAIK is not in any major style of TKD.


----------



## Axiom

I'm paraphrasing now from a bronze medalist in ITF TaeKwonDo about his experience competing for 5 years in Muay Thai, and how TaeKwondo translates: Bare in mind that this is the more conservative style of TKD compared to the WTF guys....

He trains with me.

Him - _TKD high kicks don't work_

_Me-  So drop the high ones and go for midsection. Why not sidekick their exposed abdominal area due to high guard ?_

_Him - They don't care if I connect or not. This is full contact Thaiboxing. Sidekicks ain't doing any damage to their well conditioned bodies. And they pick up on it fast.
_
Conversation died after that. I ran out of ideas


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> ok. So here is saenchai. who does flash kicks and also that knee forwards style of kicking.
> 
> Ok. He is a thai guy. But there is an indication that someone can ma,e that sort of method work.


Good eye, he does kick like a Taekwondo man.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> Not all TKD has the same sparring format. Your confusing TKD with WTF again, .



That's not what I wrote.  Read again. I wrote that the *same* styles of TKD share the same sparring format (usually) and forms, and that means in effect that difference *within *styles could not be fundamental.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I'm ITF.  Fighters of both of the two main federations (WTF/ITF) will be on the behinds if they do jumping back kicks, you know, the types of techniques that actually signify taekwondo from other arts. If you just throw old school roundhouse kicks, you might as well go in there as a KickBoxer.


Our turning kicks are quite different from the roundhouse kicks you find in kickboxing.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> a bronze medalist in ITF TaeKwonDo



A bronze medalist in what competition? Local between clubs, national, international or Olympic or perhaps just within your own club? How old is he? 

Saying he's a bronze medallist doesn't give us any idea of his actual level of experience, I once received a gold medal for running.... I was seven.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Our turning kicks are quite different from the roundhouse kicks you find in kickboxing.



Depends on the background of the Kickboxing coach. Kickboxing is not a style in and of itself. It's various competition formats and clubs oriented to whatever format they feel proficient in.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Saying he's a bronze medallist doesn't give us any idea of his actual level of experience, I once received a gold medal for running.... I was seven.




The ITF World Championships 2014, free sparring.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> The ITF World Championships 2014, free sparring.



Thank you.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Thank you.



To hear me him say that given that he is still with us is very disheartening. Can't blame his honesty though.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Him - _TKD high kicks don't work_
> 
> _Me- So drop the high ones and go for midsection. Why not sidekick their exposed abdominal area due to high guard ?_
> 
> _Him - They don't care if I connect or not. This is full contact Thaiboxing. Sidekicks ain't doing any damage to their well conditioned bodies. And they pick up on it fast._



Of course he could just be a bad Muay Thai fighter.  Perhaps *his *sidekicks are only powerful enough to score in TKD ( doesn't mean that they are poor or less strong kicks just that you only practise at the power you need if you compete) and he needs to actually put more power into them. Before getting disheartened you might want to find out for yourself than believing everyone else's *opinion*. He is assuming that TKD is less powerful than MT but they are different sports, it will depend on who he fought and actually how good he is. Perhaps it's not that sidekicks don't affect MT fighters but rather just his. Sometimes it's a shock when you are good in one thing, try something that you think is similar and you aren't very good at it. Assuming it's the style that is faulty is wrong, it's more likely to be the fighter for quite a few reasons.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> I'm paraphrasing now from a bronze medalist in ITF TaeKwonDo about his experience competing for 5 years in Muay Thai, and how TaeKwondo translates: Bare in mind that this is the more conservative style of TKD compared to the WTF guys....
> 
> He trains with me.
> 
> Him - _TKD high kicks don't work_
> 
> _Me-  So drop the high ones and go for midsection. Why not sidekick their exposed abdominal area due to high guard ?_
> 
> _Him - They don't care if I connect or not. This is full contact Thaiboxing. Sidekicks ain't doing any damage to their well conditioned bodies. And they pick up on it fast.
> _
> Conversation died after that. I ran out of ideas


So Axiom, what makes you listen to that one guy over all the people you are arguing with?

Could it be that his view matches your own so seems more valid? 

I've not long ago started training Muay Thai and one of my main background arts is wtf taekwondo.

I don't know why your friend thinks the high kicks don't work? 
I can only guess it's because he has no power in them because he's trained those flicky machine gun kicks that ITF folk like to use in demo...
...But that is just a guess about a kicking style I've never done so not worth much.


Side kicks and spinning back kicks have been my saving grace against the guys at my club. And while he's correct that ultra conditioned fighters are harder to put down with a mid section side kick, to say they don't care is a massive over-statement.

As I commented a while back in another thread the difficulty I found was that it's much harder to get them to extend with a power technique or with a lunge despite the thai fighter constantly creeping towards you. This makes every engagement a messy clash rather than the high stakes game of distance manipulation that wtf sparring is.

I realise you are going to ignore this post as you've ignored everyone who disagreed with you, but for what it's worth the following is what I believe. 

All fighters win or loose based on how they have trained. 
You commented once at not being a fast kicker. That is a flaw in your training. Change how you train and you will get faster. 
No TKD man is worth a damn if his kicks can't KO with one shot and if they are so slow they get caught often.

Training is everything but training is not the same as the fighting style (in most cases). How one fights is the "fighting style", the clue is in the words.

For Tkd specifically aside from speed and power the ability to feint and vary the angle of attack and always return your foot to the floor so you can move are IMO key points in fighting other styles that use more hands.

Understand how to use direct energy kicks vs circular kicks.
Kicks should snap from the chamber and penetrate like a bullet. The sight of the chamber should fill the opponent with dread for the bewildering array of possible ***-whopery that it represents. 

Switching feet should look like a kick, stepping should look like a kick, spinning should look like a kick and a kick should look like a blinding light of pain.

I could do all that once and I was never "good" at Tkd as classed by tkd folks. I could do that to non tkd people because everybody thinks they can kick so they know what tkd can bring. But unless they've trained in it, they don't know jack.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Of course he could just be a bad Muay Thai fighter.  Perhaps *his *sidekicks are only powerful enough to score in TKD ( doesn't mean that they are poor or less strong kicks just that you only practise at the power you need if you compete) and he needs to actually put more power into them. Before getting disheartened you might want to find out for yourself than believing everyone else's *opinion*. He is assuming that TKD is less powerful than MT but they are different sports, it will depend on who he fought and actually how good he is. Perhaps it's not that sidekicks don't affect MT fighters but rather just his. Sometimes it's a shock when you are good in one thing, try something that you think is similar and you aren't very good at it. Assuming it's the style that is faulty is wrong, it's more likely to be the fighter for quite a few reasons.


 
Oh, he's sidekicked me through the mitts into a wall. His roundhouse kick was very explosive too. It's hard to label him anything but legit. Also very experienced in TKD.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Is your style an ITF-off shoot?



Originally, but not for the last 40 years or so.



Axiom said:


> Most ITF guys do in fact bounce around.



That's their problem.



Axiom said:


> As for your question, if what you're saying is that you're doing solid kickboxing sparring with hard contact, then I in fact don't think it will break down.



Ours is a non-competition type with non-contact sparring.



Axiom said:


> A Kukkiwon competitor is twice as fast in their footwork and will run circles around you. But sure, if you got knockout power, go for it.



They can run all the rings they want, they won't be running them for long before feeling some of that knockout power.



Axiom said:


> Have you ever sparred a Thai guy?



I assume you mean one that does Muay Thai so yes there was a guy who had done it for quite a while that joined our school until after he got his black belt with us. I also got into a street fight with someone who had done some kickboxing for a few years and through out the entire fight he could not touch me.



Axiom said:


> Depends on the background of the Kickboxing coach.



I have never seen a kickboxer in person or on a video with the same turning kick method as ours. Seen one with a similar side kick but not turning kick.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> I have never seen a kickboxer in person or on a video with the same turning kick method as ours. Seen one with a similar side kick but not turning kick.



What is your turning kick exactly? You make it sound so mysterious. Is it a variation of the mawashi geri, semi circular chambering? If yes then been there, done that.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Oh, he's sidekicked me through the mitts into a wall. His roundhouse kick was very explosive too. It's hard to label him anything but legit. Also very experienced in TKD.



You use mitts for kicks? Why not kick bags? As I don't know how big you are saying you've been kicked that hard means little. As I said though he can be a good TKD competitor and a bad MT one, it doesn't make either style better or worse than the other.


----------



## Axiom

DaveB said:


> I can only guess it's because he has no power in them because he's trained those flicky machine gun kicks that ITF folk like to use in demo...



I have to stand up for my style here. We are trained to go full power on the mitts..... No problem whatsoever. I don't know why people think we don't based on a  sparring format that happens to be light contact.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You use mitts for kicks? Why not kick bags? As I don't know how big you are saying you've been kicked that hard means little. As I said though he can be a good TKD competitor and a bad MT one, it doesn't make either style better or worse than the other.



How could he be a bad MT competitor if he uses TKD? I said that his TKD did not work in Muay Thai ring. He later learned Muay Thai and did quite okey in competition. He wasn't in the bottom class, nor at the very top.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You use mitts for kicks? Why not kick bags?.



Actually, the proper term is *kick shields*. Just learned that. And I'm not of small stature or circumference. If you sidekick me into a wall you better kick it pretty darn hard.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> What is your turning kick exactly?



It's a bit hard to explain fully in words but basically it is lift leg up sideways like a dog on a tree, knee and ankle  same height and leg tucked fully, rotate hips with leg traveling parallel to the ground, at about 45 degrees from the target start to straighten the leg and hit with the ball of the foot.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> It's a bit hard to explain fully in words but basically it is lift leg up sideways like a dog on a tree, knee and ankle  same height and leg tucked fully, rotate hips with leg traveling parallel to the ground, at about 45 degrees from the target start to straighten the leg and hit with the ball of the foot.



That's the same turning kick as the mawashi geri in Shotokan. And dolyo chagi in ITF.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Actually, the proper term is *kick shields*.



Kicking shields are hand held and held against the body, bags are usually suspended are are remarkable bag like.



Axiom said:


> If you sidekick me into a wall you better kick it pretty darn hard.



A few months ago I doubled over an adult black belt taller than me (I am about 6'2") holding a kicking shield with a back kick. That was fun.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> That's the same turning kick as the mawashi geri in Shotokan. And dolyo chagi in ITF.


Mostly. Yet different from the kickboxing one, which was the point.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Kicking shields are hand held and held against the body, bags are usually suspended are are remarkable bag like.
> 
> 
> .



I never said it was a bag...


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Mostly. Yet different from the kickboxing one, which was the point.



Yes, and has it never crossed your mind why Karatekas/TKDoins who did Kickboxing never used it? If it so powerful and economical? It's not.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Yes, and has it never crossed your mind why Karatekas/TKDoins who did Kickboxing never used it? If it so powerful and economical? It's not.



Has it ever crossed your mind that Karate/TKD guys who do kickboxing might be using, I don't know, kickboxing techniques perhaps? I may not be powerful and economic when you use it but we get plenty of power and economy out of it.


----------



## Axiom

Heres an informative article on the differences between an old schools and modern TKD turning kick ITF Vs Kukkiwon Dollyo Chagi

The writer fails to mention however that the KKW guys do indeed perform this old school kick as well in some of their forms. They don't just learn the new one.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Actually, the proper term is *kick shields*.





Axiom said:


> I never said it was a bag...



*I said kick bags and I meant kick bags.* I think you are misunderstanding a great deal here.



Axiom said:


> Yes, and has it never crossed your mind why Karatekas/TKDoins who did Kickboxing never used it? If it so powerful and economical? It's not.




Has it never crossed your mind why karateka/TKDists don't use swords? If they are so powerful and economical?


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Has it ever crossed your mind that Karate/TKD guys who do kickboxing might be using, I don't know, kickboxing techniques perhaps? I may not be powerful and economic when you use it but we get plenty of power and economy out of it.



No. Kickboxing was, amongst other tings,  an outlet for Karatekas/TKdoins to use their techniques in full contact. As it happened though, they not only dropped their ball of the foot turning kick but also their punches and learned modified boxing (punches in kickboxning rules).


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> No. Kickboxing was, amongst other tings,  an outlet for Karatekas/TKdoins to use their techniques in full contact. As it happened though, they not only dropped their ball of the foot turning kick but also their punches and learned modified boxing (punches in kickboxning rules).



Sigh. You know we had and still have full contact karate competitions? Are you saying karateka have dropped their punches and are using boxing techniques now? if you are you are talking nonsense.


----------



## Balrog

Axiom said:


> I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist. This despite the fact that all strikes in Muay Thai are also in TaeKwondo! My reasons may surprise you.
> 
> 1. Footwork. TKDoins are often renowned for their speedy  and light footwork. However, being light on your feet in a Thaiboxing ring also carries the disadvantage of being easier to knock OFF your feet. Thaiboxers in comparision are more flat footed but rock solid to the ground. Getting put on your butt repeatedly will wear and tear on you. And this will happen even more easily with one foot up in the air kicking..
> 
> 2. The kicks.  This ties in to the point above. TaeKwondo kicks are snappy and quick of the feet, but makes one liable to get pushed off balance in a rule set in which you can actually grabb and push down kicks. Stability will once again be a major question mark. This is demoralising in the long run and, the kicks you perfected in the dojang won't get you as many points (or KO'S) as you might have previously though.


Well, I'll stop after these two because they are so massively wrong, there's no need to continue.

Footwork and being easy to knock off your feet.....you're making the assumption that the TKD fighter is simply going to stand still once the MT guy starts a technique?  The purpose of footwork is primarily two things:  get into position to hit someone, or get out of the way when they try to hit you.

Kicks....yes, a lot of them are snappy and quick.  What's your point?  Get hit by one of those snappy and quick kicks and you're gonna get hurt.

Let me suggest - strongly - that you go back and learn something about TKD before you write about it.  Just sayin'....


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Sigh. You know we had and still have full contact karate competitions? Are you saying karateka have dropped their punches and are using boxing techniques now? if you are you are talking nonsense.



In American Kickboxing, originally called Full Contact Karate, competitions they did.


----------



## Axiom

Balrog said:


> Well, I'll stop after these two because they are so massively wrong, there's no need to continue.
> 
> Footwork and being easy to knock off your feet.....you're making the assumption that the TKD fighter is simply going to stand still once the MT guy starts a technique?



Actually, he real liability is when the TKD guy is the one of the offensive with that footwork in freefighting rules in general (not just MT).

By the way there are instructors in here who indirectly agreed about the footwork issue. "We only care about footwork for TKD specific rules" is pretty much admitting my point.


----------



## Steve

I always thought Juri was pretty strong, for a TKD expert.  Juri has a number of special techniques, including a quick flip kick, a dive kick, and a technique called Fuhajin kick, which allows fireballs to be fired from her feet.

Now, is she strong enough to beat Sagat?  Well, that depends entirely on how much training the player has.  Sagat is beatable, but he's super strong and was at one point was only a boss fight controlled by the CPU and not available to play.  Once he sorted out his feud with Ryu, he was a lot more powerful.

So, in the end, it really depends on how experienced the player is.  If you're just mashing buttons, Juri loses every time.  But learn some secret moves, and you're golden.

Wait.  You mean we're not talking about Street Fighter video games?  Oh...


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> Wait. You mean we're not talking about Street Fighter video games? Oh...



Wait....maybe he is.  That would explain a lot.


----------



## Axiom

Steve said:


> I always thought Juri was pretty strong, for a TKD expert.  Juri has a number of special techniques, including a quick flip kick, a dive kick, and a technique called Fuhajin kick, which allows fireballs to be fired from her feet.
> 
> Now, is she strong enough to beat Sagat?  Well, that depends entirely on how much training the player has.  Sagat is beatable, but he's super strong and was at one point was only a boss fight controlled by the CPU and not available to play.  Once he sorted out his feud with Ryu, he was a lot more powerful.
> 
> So, in the end, it really depends on how experienced the player is.  If you're just mashing buttons, Juri loses every time.  But learn some secret moves, and you're golden.
> 
> Wait.  You mean we're not talking about Street Fighter video games?  Oh...



LMAO Why do you have bring out nostalgic memories in me? I'm suffering as it is.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> LMAO Why do you have bring out nostalgic memories in me? I'm suffering as it is.


That's how I roll.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> I have to stand up for my style here. .


 You're the one insulting your style the most. At this point I feel like this thread should be closed for style bashing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I'm ITF.  Fighters of both of the two main federations (WTF/ITF) will be on the behinds if they do jumping back kicks, you know, the types of techniques that actually signify taekwondo from other arts. If you just throw old school roundhouse kicks, you might as well go in there as a KickBoxer.


Focusing on the techniques that work in a given context doesn't make it suddenly NOT Tae Kwon Do. A subset of the style doesn't cease to be representative of the style.


----------



## Archtkd

Axiom said:


> Because the curriculums are roughly the same no matter if you do KKW/WTF style in Iran or Norway. The styles are codified


Why do you keep skirting serious questions and then repeating these falsehoods? Who and what styles are codified in "KKW/WTF style." Are we talking about styles in sparring, breaking, standard poomsae, creative poomsae, or hoshinshul?  And please answer my earier questions about you so called "universal" footwork training supposedly pushed by the WTF. Welcome to MT. You are now in the big leagues sir, so when yo make big statements, expect big questions.


----------



## Axiom

Archtkd said:


> Who and what styles are codified in "KKW/WTF style..



KKW IS the style Seriously, if you don't even know that about TKD  it's not possible to carry on the discussion. I'm being serious now.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> KKW IS the style Seriously, if you don't even know that about TKD  it's not possible to carry on the discussion. I'm being serious now.



I don't suppose you noticed his username? I'm off for the popcorn now.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I don't suppose you noticed his username? I'm off for the popcorn now.



Doesn't mean he knows the other styles of TKD.. Because that one was embarrasing.


----------



## Buka




----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Doesn't mean he knows the other styles of TKD.. Because that one was embarrasing.



*Ok, that's enough.*  We are have had more than enough of your nonsense, it's about time you grew up, stopped whinging, whining and more importantly stopped insulting people. People here have been more than tolerant of your prattling, they have seriously and sincerely tried to engage with you, all you've done is throw that back in people's faces.

Experienced martial artists have tried to point out that you have little idea of your own style let alone others yet you insist they are wrong and you are right. You have taken the attitude that you must educate the posters here on the failings of their styles as well as, less forgivably, disrespected your style, you school and your instructors. You should be ashamed of yourself quite frankly.

No style is perfect, no student or instructor either but to disrespect your instructor the way you do on a public, international site is disgraceful. To read when you write that you will take a free black belt, that your gradings are a given but the teaching bad is embarrassing. To see you calling other posters embarrassing is cringe worthy, to read your 'arguments' about how everyone is wrong but you is to see someone who is clearly not thinking about how he is representing his school, style and instructors. 

The answer to everything you write is very simple.....shut up and train. if you don't like where you train then have some integrity and leave. Summon up your self respect and stop disrespecting other people and their arts, learn everything you can by experiencing it. Don't try to teach your grandmother to such eggs, be humble and be prepared to learn.

This is a friendly place, it really is, if you had written the posts you have here on many other sites you would have been ripped a new one. Please take this as a friendly warning, don't insult people and tell them they are embarrassing, they aren't, the embarrassment is you.

Stop and think about the impression you have given us, of a petulant schoolboy who thinks because he has trained a little he knows everything. Son, no one knows everything, all of us still have much to learn, the difference is we know it, you don't. Don't go off in a huff instead, stay and read, ask questions and learn. We don't know all the answers, there's a lot we can learn together but you need to empty your cup to use a cliché, yes it is a cliché but it's still true, you need to empty your mind of what you think you know to make way for what you can learn.

So, as I said, that is enough, make an end of this thread before it gets locked. Bow out, and come back with a new attitude, you will be welcome I can assure you.


----------



## Steve




----------



## Axiom

This is what just transpired:

- _What do you train_: 

_- Shotokan Karate, JKA sparring.

 -  Which style of Shotokan/JKA?


..._


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> This is what just transpired:
> 
> - _What do you train_:
> 
> _- Shotokan Karate, JKA sparring.
> 
> -  Which style of Shotokan/JKA?
> 
> 
> ..._



Enough.


----------



## MA_Student

Why has all this got to happen. Who cares if Muay Thai is better than taekwondo. They're both great martial arts and both have amazing athletes and fighters. There's more to life than just who can take who in a fight. Some like Muay Thai more and some like taekwondo some like karate some like Jiu Jitsu some like boxing some like aikido some like monkey Kung fu. Who cares it's all about preference I don't know if my styles can take out other styles and frankly I don't care I just enjoy my training. It's not even about learning to fight for me it's just about learning and practicing and staying in shape and meeting people


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez got angry


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> Tez got angry



Just after she got the popcorn


----------



## Gerry Seymour

To the OP. You don't seem to be aware of the approach you have taken. You posted a very definitive statement, backed by definitive statements. Each time someone disagrees with one, your default position appears to be to assume they either a) have very little knowledge in the area, or b) don't understand the issues at all.

Here's the issue with those stances: most of the people replying have more experience than you do. I'll use myself as an example - not because I'm special, but precisely because I am not. You have 4 years of TKD experience. I have none. My primary art isn't even known for its kicking. But I've been in martial arts since the early 1980's. I have significant experience in 4 or 5 arts (depending how you count them) and some dabblings in a number of others. In spite of the fact that I'm not a specialist in kicking, and don't actually kick much, I've probably performed (and received) several times as many kicks as you, simply because I've been at it a while. Remember how I said I'm not special? I'm not. There are folks responding to you, whose knowledge about striking (especially kicking), sparring, and more notably both TKD and MT puts my meager knowledge to shame. Some have been at MA since before I saw my first MA movie.

And yet, when folks put forth a counter-argument, you are entirely dismissive. You either tell them they are wrong because they don't know anything, or you just dismiss their argument without counterpoint.

Most of us come here to learn from each other. When someone gives me a point I don't agree with, I assume it's my job to figure out why they disagree, and either accept their point, or put forth something resembling a cogent argument of why I disagree with them.

Why are you here? I don't need to know the answer to that question, but you do.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Tez got angry



Not so much, more being the parent telling the OP to go to his bedroom and reflect on what he's done. To do that to his instructors, style and school is not on, he is also insulting other posters which will get the thread locked.


----------



## TrueJim

MA_Student said:


> Why has all this got to happen. Who cares if Muay Thai is better than taekwondo.



I agree, we should be talking about the IMPORTANT _who-would-win-in-a-fight _questions, like:

Dumbledore vs Gandalf
Iron Man vs. Batman
Shark vs. Bear
Chicago Pizza vs. New York Pizza


----------



## CB Jones

gpseymour said:


> Each time someone disagrees with one, your default position appears to be to assume they either a) have very little knowledge in the area, or b) don't understand the issues at all.





gpseymour said:


> yet, when folks put forth a counter-argument, you are entirely dismissive. You either tell them they are wrong because they don't know anything, or you just dismiss their argument without counterpoint.



So you are saying he is acting like most other Millenials.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> So you are saying he is acting like most other Millenials.


I can't ascribe it to that - I've known Millenials who were entirely capable of supporting their arguments in debate.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

TrueJim said:


> I agree, we should be talking about the IMPORTANT _who-would-win-in-a-fight _questions, like:
> 
> Dumbledore vs Gandalf
> Iron Man vs. Batman
> Shark vs. Bear
> Chicago Pizza vs. New York Pizza



1. Dumbledore. Not because I like HP better, but because he shows a lot more actual magical skills than Gandalf, who in the movies at least comes off more like a fighter who can do a few magical tricks.
2.  Batman. They've both got a ton of money and gadgets, and are both geniuses. But Batmans genius has a larger focus on strategy/tactics than iron mans. He's also a bit more ruthless.
3. In water: Shark. On land: Bear.
4. New York Pizza. I assume their friends would come to defend them, and us new yorkers can be nasty f***s if you mess with our pizza. Also, chicago style pizza would be disqualified since it's not really pizza, it's just a pie with meat and sauce in it.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> Mostly. Yet different from the kickboxing one, which was the point.



Kickboxing uses both kicks.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I can't ascribe it to that - I've known Millenials who were entirely capable of supporting their arguments in debate.



There are some pretty dumb argument's on both sides though.


----------



## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> You're the one insulting your style the most. At this point I feel like this thread should be closed for style bashing.



The thread you are participating in.

I hate the objectification of women in strip clubs. Sometimes I don't even throw them money.


----------



## drop bear

MA_Student said:


> Why has all this got to happen. Who cares if Muay Thai is better than taekwondo. They're both great martial arts and both have amazing athletes and fighters. There's more to life than just who can take who in a fight. Some like Muay Thai more and some like taekwondo some like karate some like Jiu Jitsu some like boxing some like aikido some like monkey Kung fu. Who cares it's all about preference I don't know if my styles can take out other styles and frankly I don't care I just enjoy my training. It's not even about learning to fight for me it's just about learning and practicing and staying in shape and meeting people



It is important to the people who want to be good at martial arts.

There is this whole living in a way that is important thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> It is important to the people who want to be good at martial arts.
> 
> There is this whole living in a way that is important thing.


A few thoughts on this (and my mind isn't super clear right now - see my post in Last Person #5).

For some people, it really doesn't matter. Some folks really just want to train, enjoy the accomplishment of learning and the challenge of the exertion. These folks, IMO, have something in common with the people who study swordwork. It's not my way, but it is theirs.

Most styles aren't systematically bad. If someone is studying something that works reasonably well for whatever their purpose is (competition, defensive fighting, etc.), then they may not care whether there's something better for that purpose. For them, changing arts would mean starting over, and _*they*_ wouldn't be better in that art for a long time.

For those who do care about highest effectiveness, that's not really a style question, IMO. That's a technique question. If a style contains a range of techniques, once you know those, examining them against those in other styles is useful. So, if someone in Brute Fu Do decided their side kick wasn't as good as a TKD side kick, and their round kick wasn't as good as a MT round kick, they could cross train to those techniques. In most cases (certainly not all), the style is a set of principles for applying the techniques (and is learned through the techniques - a whole chicken-and-egg thing).

I think most of us fall somewhere between the second and third groups.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> A few thoughts on this (and my mind isn't super clear right now - see my post in Last Person #5).
> 
> For some people, it really doesn't matter. Some folks really just want to train, enjoy the accomplishment of learning and the challenge of the exertion. These folks, IMO, have something in common with the people who study swordwork. It's not my way, but it is theirs.
> 
> Most styles aren't systematically bad. If someone is studying something that works reasonably well for whatever their purpose is (competition, defensive fighting, etc.), then they may not care whether there's something better for that purpose. For them, changing arts would mean starting over, and _*they*_ wouldn't be better in that art for a long time.
> 
> For those who do care about highest effectiveness, that's not really a style question, IMO. That's a technique question. If a style contains a range of techniques, once you know those, examining them against those in other styles is useful. So, if someone in Brute Fu Do decided their side kick wasn't as good as a TKD side kick, and their round kick wasn't as good as a MT round kick, they could cross train to those techniques. In most cases (certainly not all), the style is a set of principles for applying the techniques (and is learned through the techniques - a whole chicken-and-egg thing).
> 
> I think most of us fall somewhere between the second and third groups.



It is a big jump from not caring if a style works to assuming most styles do work.

I mean you develop your ability though collaboration and competition. To do that you probably should care if the people you are collaborating with are any good.

This is stylistically true as well as individually.

So if you don't care and all the people around you don't care. And your style doesn't care.

It will quite simply be dumb luck if your style does work.

If I wanted to get really pithy it would be competition, collaboration and repetition.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> It is a big jump from not caring if a style works to assuming most styles do work.
> 
> I mean you develop your ability though collaboration and competition. To do that you probably should care if the people you are collaborating with are any good.
> 
> This is stylistically true as well as individually.
> 
> So if you don't care and all the people around you don't care. And your style doesn't care.
> 
> It will quite simply be dumb luck if your style does work.


And for some folks, that's fine. It works for what they want it to do (give them a skill to work on, something to struggle with and learn from). As long as they are clear about the likelihood of it being useful for something else, no worries.


----------



## TrueJim

gpseymour said:


> A few thoughts on this (and my mind isn't super clear right now - see my post in Last Person #5)...



Agreed 100%. The "who would win in a fight" questions are silly, in my opinion. The more aggressive fighter, the bigger fighter, the more physically fit fighter, and the fighter with better training is usually going to win, regardless of style. In my opinion, style is the LEAST important part of the question. It's like asking if blue cars are faster than green cars. 

Who would win?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> And for some folks, that's fine. It works for what they want it to do (give them a skill to work on, something to struggle with and learn from). As long as they are clear about the likelihood of it being useful for something else, no worries.



That is two different discussions. 

If soccer mum goes to a martial arts school and never gets any good but gets an hour of peace. That is fine. A perfect use of their time.

The constant retoric of people suggesting that it doesnt matter if you do a good job or a crap job isn't ok. The idea that they are coming from some sort of moral high ground is absurd.


----------



## drop bear

TrueJim said:


> Agreed 100%. The "who would win in a fight" questions are silly, in my opinion. The more aggressive fighter, the bigger fighter, the more physically fit fighter, and the fighter with better training is usually going to win, regardless of style. In my opinion, style is the LEAST important part of the question. It's like asking if blue cars are faster than green cars.
> 
> Who would win?



Or if Ferrari's are faster than Hyundai's. It is the driver or the track or the time of day.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> Agreed 100%. The "who would win in a fight" questions are silly, in my opinion. The more aggressive fighter, the bigger fighter, the more physically fit fighter, and the fighter with better training is usually going to win, regardless of style. In my opinion, style is the LEAST important part of the question. It's like asking if blue cars are faster than green cars.
> 
> Who would win?


If both fighters' styles are highly effective and have a similar range, then style probably matters least. But if one style has a better set of effective tools, then that fighter will be better equipped. And not all styles are designed for the same context - consider boxing used in a Muay Thai competition, where Muay Thai has a clear advantage. I think it's fair to say, in a street fight, that Muay Thai fighter is at an advantage because of his kicks. If they are equally well trained, he's probably going to win. Put it in a boxing ring (with boxing rules), and the advantage goes back to the boxer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> That is two different discussions.
> 
> If soccer mum goes to a martial arts school and never gets any good but gets an hour of peace. That is fine. A perfect use of their time.
> 
> The constant retoric of people suggesting that it doesnt matter if you do a good job or a crap job isn't ok. The idea that they are coming from some sort of moral high ground is absurd.


I agree it's two different concepts, but not two different discussions. MA_student's post a few back was basically saying that same thing - he's happy with what he trains in, because it fits his needs (first group). The other two groups are a different concept. I think most of us have some of that first group, as well - that's why it's not really two different discussions.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Or if Ferrari's are faster than Hyundai's. It is the driver or the track or the time of day.


There's actually some truth to that. A professional driver in a Mercedes E-class can probably beat me 10 times out of 10 on a racetrack with curves (so, not a NASCAR track), regardless of what I'm driving. He's just that much better than me. Now, put him in a Honda Fit, and me in a sports car, and maybe I am in control. The driver matters a lot, which is the point folks are making (and over-stating, IMO) when they say it's not the style. Style matters. The fighter matters more (assuming the style has reasonable tools).


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> There's actually some truth to that. A professional driver in a Mercedes E-class can probably beat me 10 times out of 10 on a racetrack with curves (so, not a NASCAR track), regardless of what I'm driving. He's just that much better than me. Now, put him in a Honda Fit, and me in a sports car, and maybe I am in control. The driver matters a lot, which is the point folks are making (and over-stating, IMO) when they say it's not the style. Style matters. The fighter matters more (assuming the style has reasonable tools).



Yeah I understand the point trying to be made. It just isn't true the way they make it. 

And if I bought a Hyundai for 200,000 dollars because it is the driver not the car. You would call me an idiot.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I agree it's two different concepts, but not two different discussions. MA_student's post a few back was basically saying that same thing - he's happy with what he trains in, because it fits his needs (first group). The other two groups are a different concept. I think most of us have some of that first group, as well - that's why it's not really two different discussions.



In a thread which is about about a critique of a styles effectiveness.

And look just train what you think is fun would not help a tkder win a Thai fight.

It would get him crippled.


----------



## RTKDCMB

TrueJim said:


> I agree, we should be talking about the IMPORTANT _who-would-win-in-a-fight _questions, like:
> 
> Dumbledore vs Gandalf
> Iron Man vs. Batman
> Shark vs. Bear
> Chicago Pizza vs. New York Pizza


 Kind of like this question on Yahoo Answers:
Me vs an orangutan????


----------



## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> So you are saying he is acting like most other Millenials.



Sorry but that's a ridiculous thing to say. I mean which ones did you have in mind? The military ones, the medical ones, the teachers, the volunteers? Each of us is responsible for the way we behave it's nothing to do with when we were born, though the USA seems to label people as 'millennials' etc more than anywhere else where we tend not to categorise people in that way, this is probably because the USA is the country of birth of the advertising industry.


----------



## Axiom

I don't know why people don't think that the shortcomings of TaeKwonDo can't be modified? The discussion is *if* the flaws I outlined are inherent or not. I personally find it difficult to make TKD work *without *turning it into an American Kickboxing-like system, but I think an argument could be made, surely.


----------



## Axiom

For instance, there is a Kickboxer in my club who loves ITF TaeKwonDo kicks as a complement to his Kickboxing. He decided to learn the forms and get graded now as well. But that is of course different from saying that TKD in and of itself works.

I actually think TKD can really shine when combined with another art, but the objective of this thread is to discuss it separate from other arts.


----------



## Tez3

You know, when I said enough, I meant it. Just stop. When you are in a hole, stop bloody digging.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You know, when I said enough, I meant it. Just stop. When you are in a hole, stop bloody digging.



When you tell me something? You're not my officer...


----------



## Axiom

Why is it digging a hole to examine and question ones own system of martial arts? Am I simply to step in line and get indoctrinated? Sorry, not this guy. 

To make a thread pointing out the* benefits* of TKD does not appeal to me, beause that will only result in preaching to the choir. 

This is how intellectuals operate...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> I don't know why people don't think that the shortcomings of TaeKwonDo can't be modified? The discussion is *if* the flaws I outlined are inherent or not. I personally find it difficult to make TKD work *without *turning it into an American Kickboxing-like system, but I think an argument could be made, surely.



I think it would be more accurate to say that people are unconvinced that you have the expertise to determine a shortcoming of TKD vs a shortcoming of Axiom. Given that many of the people who are pointing out the error of your thinking have been training for 10 times as long as you, perhaps you'd do well to give some thought to your position.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it would be more accurate to say that people are unconvinced that you have the expertise to determine a shortcoming of TKD vs a shortcoming of Axiom. Given that many of the people who are pointing out the error of your thinking have been training for 10 times as long as you, perhaps you'd do well to give some thought to your position.



I don't think   - X  number of years spent in the art = knowledge about the system in a ring/the application of Taekwondo. It all depends on their sparring experience.

I welcome people who have done hard sparring against other striking systems, like I have and continue to do. That way you really test yourself and your system, if you are evenly matched.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Why is it digging a hole to examine and question ones own system of martial arts? Am I simply to step in line and get indoctrinated? Sorry, not this guy.
> 
> To make a thread pointing out the* benefits* of TKD does not appeal to me, beause that will only result in preaching to the choir.
> 
> This is how intellectuals operate...




You do not have sufficient experience to examine your own art nor to compare it to other styles of which you have no knowledge.

You seem to have this idea of yourself as some sort of pioneer, do you think martial artists don't examine their style...and themselves?

Your comment about 'intellectuals' is both ignorant and remarkably funny. I'm left shaking my head at your naiveté and your arrogance as this shows...


Axiom said:


> I don't think - X number of years spent in the art = knowledge about the system in a ring/the application of Taekwondo. It all depends on their sparring experience.
> 
> I welcome people who have done hard sparring against other striking systems, like I have and continue to do. That way you really test yourself and your system, if you are evenly matched.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> I don't know why people don't think that the shortcomings of TaeKwonDo can't be modified? The discussion is *if* the flaws I outlined are inherent or not. I personally find it difficult to make TKD work *without *turning it into an American Kickboxing-like system, but I think an argument could be made, surely.


The fundamental flaw in your viewpoint is the constant conflation of martial art and sport.

An example: the wtf taekwondo I did is not how you use those same taekwondo lessons in a pub. That Olympic style competition is a game that is shaped by the rules. For a Thai boxer to become a good tkd fighter he would have to adapt to be the most efficient he could be within the rules.

Conversely the same is true for a tkd fighter going into muay Thai rules fighting. Neither thing is a fighting style, they are games played differently to one another.
So by comparing them you are saying what if I take my drag racer and put it in a formula 1 race.

The comparison is pointless and says nothing about the art, only the ruleset under which the competitor trains.

That is not to say you can't use combat sports skills or methods in real fighting, but its not the environment that the fighters train for.

Essentially everything is crap except mma, and then only the one's with nearly no rules. That is as close to martial art as you can get.

And yes I acknowledge that traditional training doesn't usually come close to preparing people for that level of fighting, but again:

Training is not martial arts. Training is training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Sorry but that's a ridiculous thing to say. I mean which ones did you have in mind? The military ones, the medical ones, the teachers, the volunteers? Each of us is responsible for the way we behave it's nothing to do with when we were born, though the USA seems to label people as 'millennials' etc more than anywhere else where we tend not to categorise people in that way, this is probably because the USA is the country of birth of the advertising industry.


There's some utility in understanding demographic groups, but it has gone overboard, especially in respect to the Millenials. Business writers, especially, have spent a lot of time and effort talking about how different this generation is. I've been showing people for several years that most of it is more "kids these days" talk - a new form of the same discussions people have had about how young people are (because immature people are different). Most of the points are actually no different from what was said of my dad's generation, except the context has changed (technology, etc.).

And now the oldest Millenials (in their late 30's now) are proving to be much like other adults in the US. They are having kids, buying SUV's, getting houses...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I don't know why people don't think that the shortcomings of TaeKwonDo can't be modified? The discussion is *if* the flaws I outlined are inherent or not. I personally find it difficult to make TKD work *without *turning it into an American Kickboxing-like system, but I think an argument could be made, surely.


Yet, when poeple have pointed out where they don't think they are inherent, you argue they are (without evidence) and belittle those who deign to disagree.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Why is it digging a hole to examine and question ones own system of martial arts? Am I simply to step in line and get indoctrinated? Sorry, not this guy.
> 
> To make a thread pointing out the* benefits* of TKD does not appeal to me, beause that will only result in preaching to the choir.
> 
> This is how intellectuals operate...


Yet, you cling to your own dogma, rather than hear the words of those around you.


----------



## CB Jones

Tez3 said:


> Sorry but that's a ridiculous thing to say.



Well it was a joke....so yeah...apparently a bad one but a joke none the less.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I don't know why people don't think that the shortcomings of TaeKwonDo can't be modified? The discussion is *if* the flaws I outlined are inherent or not. I personally find it difficult to make TKD work *without *turning it into an American Kickboxing-like system, but I think an argument could be made, surely.


And we've all said they're not real flaws just your opinions


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> You know, when I said enough, I meant it. Just stop. When you are in a hole, stop bloody digging.


Okay, once was charming, but now youre being rude.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I don't know why people don't think that the shortcomings of TaeKwonDo can't be modified...



I'm not an expert, but I'm under the impression that taekwondo actually DOES tend to evolve more quickly than other traditional martial arts. For example, looking at Sport Poomsae, lots of significant changes are occurring all the time. Or as another example, sparring rules change fairly frequently as federations attempt to fine-tune their sports. The last decade especially has seen a big uptick in the integration of acrobatic tricking into taekwondo. There's also a lot of innovation in the realm of taekwondo instruction.

I think the question you really mean is: "Why doesn't taekwondo evolve to become more effective in a cage fight?" or something along those lines. If so, I think you have to stand back and ask yourself whether or not your question is demonstrating a bias. It's like asking why bakers don't spend more time developing soup recipes. Taekwondo is evolving. It's evolving in the directions that its practitioners find interesting. If you personally find fights interesting, then by all means: evolve your taekwondo in that direction.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I welcome people who have done hard sparring against other striking systems, like I have and continue to do. That way you really test yourself and your system, if you are evenly matched.



Do you follow this YouTube channel? I think you would like it: martialartstutor


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Do you follow this YouTube channel? I think you would like it: martialartstutor



No but I'm gonna check it out.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> They are having kids, buying SUV's, getting houses...



Here an awful lot aren't whereas they would have before. Without turning this into a political discussion things have never been worse for them. The economy is such that more than ever they can't afford to buy houses, have to pay off crippling university loans, pay caps in the professions and generally have to struggle far more than their age group has before. For many reason life isn't that good, not much better for the rest of us either who aren't rich.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Here an awful lot aren't whereas they would have before. Without turning this into a political discussion things have never been worse for them. The economy is such that more than ever they can't afford to buy houses, have to pay off crippling university loans, pay caps in the professions and generally have to struggle far more than their age group has before. For many reason life isn't that good, not much better for the rest of us either who aren't rich.


There may be a difference because of the economies. And their generation, in general, has delayed the move to these areas of "adult normalcy" later than previous generations. Likely at least part of that is due to economics - the student loan issue is equally imposing in the US.


----------



## Balrog

Tez3 said:


> *Ok, that's enough.*  We are have had more than enough of your nonsense, it's about time you grew up, stopped whinging, whining and more importantly stopped insulting people. People here have been more than tolerant of your prattling, they have seriously and sincerely tried to engage with you, all you've done is throw that back in people's faces.
> ...snip...
> 
> *The answer to everything you write is very simple.....shut up and train.*
> .


It's just amazing how many issues that statement solves, isn't it?  

Or as my instructor has said (and yes, he has said it to me more than once):  "Now would be a really good time to just shut up and say 'Yes, sir!'"


----------



## Axiom

An awful lot of cackling in here. If you aren't knowledgeable about the topic and have no experience in TaeKwondo, please refrain from further derailing of the thread.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> An awful lot of cackling in here.* If you aren't knowledgeable about the topic and have no experience in TaeKwondo,* please refrain from further derailing the thread.



So you will stop posting things?

I'm afraid I'm terribly knowledgeable about Muay Thai.




gpseymour said:


> And their generation, in general, has delayed the move to these areas of "adult normalcy" later than previous generations. Likely at least part of that is due to economics - the student loan issue is equally imposing in the US.



Here sadly the move to 'adult normalcy' has begun earlier because of the dire straits we are in economically. Most young people have to leave home to get work and the minimum wage for under 25s is appalling. Many people have actually said, young people are now old beyond their time.


----------



## Tez3

Balrog said:


> It's just amazing how many issues that statement solves, isn't it?
> 
> Or as my instructor has said (and yes, he has said it to me more than once):  "Now would be a really good time to just shut up and say 'Yes, sir!'"



Sometimes shutting up and training is the answer. I can't understand why someone would want to bash their own style so much.


----------



## Balrog

Axiom said:


> An awful lot of cackling in here. If you aren't knowledgeable about the topic and have no experience in TaeKwondo, please refrain from further derailing of the thread.


Since this immediately follows my post by a couple of minutes, I'll assume that it was directed to me.

I'll repeat what was said earlier:  Now would be a REALLY good time for you to shut up and go train.  

I'm a 6th Degree Master Instructor in Taekwondo and have trained in the art for 33 years.  I am knowledgeable about the topic.  So are a whole lot of other folks in here that you have succeeded in insulting.  You might go back to your instructor and ask him/her to explain to you the meaning of the terms courtesy and respect, as you seem to be severely lacking in understanding about them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

^^That's one of the people I mentioned earlier, when I said there were folks you were insulting who were far more knowledgeable than me.


----------



## Axiom

Balrog said:


> Since this immediately follows my post by a couple of minutes, I'll assume that it was directed to me.
> 
> I'll repeat what was said earlier:  Now would be a REALLY good time for you to shut up and go train.
> 
> I'm a 6th Degree Master Instructor in Taekwondo and have trained in the art for 33 years.  I am knowledgeable about the topic.  So are a whole lot of other folks in here that you have succeeded in insulting.  You might go back to your instructor and ask him/her to explain to you the meaning of the terms courtesy and respect, as you seem to be severely lacking in understanding about them.



You did not adress the topic.  if you did earlier I must have forgotten it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> I welcome people who have done hard sparring against other striking systems, like I have and continue to do. That way you really test yourself and your system, if you are evenly matched.


Quite a few of us who have commented have a lot of experience in hard sparring against other systems*. I haven't seen you give much consideration of what we've told you.

*(For the record, I have sparred with practitioners of TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, Bando, Wing Chun, Capoeira, Shaolin Do, Boxing, Kali, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, MMA, SCA heavy weapons, Irish stick fighting, American jujutsu, and more I'm not remembering at the moment, under a wide variety of rule sets.)



Axiom said:


> No but I'm gonna check it out.



Don't. The suggestion was meant to be humorous.



Axiom said:


> If you aren't knowledgeable about the topic and have no experience in TaeKwondo, please refrain from further derailing of the thread.



Once again, many of us are. Some of the people you've been arguing with are long-time practitioners and instructors of Tae Kwon Do. Others of us are long-time practitioners and instructors of Muay Thai. Some of us have done both. Given that you are a relative beginner in TKD and have no experience in Muay Thai, it might be wise to consider whether there are some things you don't understand as well as you think you do.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I'm afraid I'm terribly knowledgeable about Muay Thai.
> 
> .



Yet you believed rival, correspondning striking techniques from other arts were prohibited under MT rules. Then when questioned retrofitted your comments to mean something else.


----------



## Axiom

Tony Dismukes said:


> *(For the record, I have sparred with practitioners of TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, Bando, Wing Chun, Capoeira, Shaolin Do, Boxing, Kali, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, MMA, SCA heavy weapons, Irish stick fighting, American jujutsu, and more I'm not remembering at the moment, under a wide variety of rule sets.)
> .



And I have sparred with a guy who did Ninjitsu. Doesn't mean I would presume to know anything about the art, which I don't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> And I have sparred with a guy who did Ninjitsu. Doesn't mean I would presume to know anything about the art, which I don't.


That one you just responded to? That's another of the people I was talking about. You're not asking any of the right questions before you dismiss folks' knowledge. Oddly, you dismissed him for responding to a very specific point you made:



Axiom said:


> I welcome people who have done hard sparring against other striking systems, like I have and continue to do. That way you really test yourself and your system, if you are evenly matched.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> That one you just responded to? That's another of the people I was talking about. You're not asking any of the right questions before you dismiss folks' knowledge. Oddly, you dismissed him for responding to a very specific point you made:



People who have *trained TaeKwonDo* (past yellow belt...) and done hard sparring against other arts.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> People who have *trained TaeKwonDo* (past yellow belt...) and done hard sparring against other arts.


Not what you originally said, but for the record I do have about a year of TKD experience. Perhaps more to the point, I'm a long term Muay Thai practitioner who has sparred against TKD practitioners. Since your original post was about TKD fighting vs MT, I think my background offers some relevant insight as to that can play out.


----------



## hoshin1600




----------



## Archtkd

Axiom said:


> KKW IS the style Seriously, if you don't even know that about TKD  it's not possible to carry on the discussion. I'm being serious now.



So this is the juvenile way you choose to answer questions about the bogus assertions you keep making in your posts? How does that help you? Since you want to sound like a very enlightened guru please just answer the simple questions, which are based on what you so loudly yell here? Noble one please enlighten us ignorant peasants. When and who codified footwork in Kukki taekwondo? When did the WTF drive said footwork as you stated? When was the "universal" teaching style you seem so familiar with developed and by whom?


----------



## Xue Sheng

hoshin1600 said:


> View attachment 21006



agreed, but I prefer this one


----------



## Tez3

Tez3 said:


> but the rules of MT preclude you using techniques other than MT so you cannot get a comparison.



This is what I said. If the techniques that are allowed in MT are the same as techniques in TKD then they would be allowed wouldn't they? However there are techniques in TKD and other styles that will not be allowed in MT. There are takedowns in TKD that wouldn't be allowed in MT for instance. I think if you knew your own style better you would know what techniques wouldn't be allowed. It makes very good sense that only MT techniques are allowed in a MT bout, don't you? In soccer you aren't allowed to use rugby techniques such as carrying the ball so why would you expect things to be different in Muay Thai, it's a sport. 



Axiom said:


> Yet you believed rival, correspondning striking techniques from other arts were prohibited under MT rules. Then when questioned retrofitted your comments to mean something else.



'Rival corresponding techniques'? what are you talking about? How are they 'rivals'?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> However there are techniques in TKD and other styles that will not be allowed in MT.


In fairness, none of the TKD techniques which are forbidden in MT competition are allowed in TKD competition either. As I noted previously, MT contest rules allow a much higher percentage of TKD techniques than TKD contest rules do.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, none of the TKD techniques which are forbidden in MT competition are allowed in TKD competition either. As I noted previously, MT contest rules allow a much higher percentage of TKD techniques than TKD contest rules do.



True enough but he is adamant that TKD sparring isn't a sport ( got quite ratty when someone called it a sport) so presumably there are no 'forbidden' techniques in TKD.  So, when the TKD fighter goes in the MT ring ( presumably to kill as TKD isn't a sport) he will use all his techniques and beat the MT fighter who *is* in a competition and is only using techniques allowed in MT. Confused yet? 

I think what he is overlooking, is that there's so many way to punch and kick, variations on them but basically it's much of a muchness. In competitions such as TKD and MT there are rules about what is allowed and what isn't, totally pointless to argue whether TKD/karate would do well in a MT bout or whether a MT fighter would do well in a full contact competition. Better perhaps if you need a comparison would be to ask if they were just fighting/sparring on the mats using their own techniques who would come off better, because we pretend to be civilised we would need a few rules, such as length of bout, perhaps no kicking in the head when opponent is down that sort of thing. It's still speculation of course and any answer we came up with without having a bout would be dubious. So much depends on the fighter, some people are excellent fighters without actually knowing any martial arts, some people are useless despite having years of training. There's fitness and stamina to consider as well. A fighters mindset is also important, eagerness to press attacks, previous training whether full contact or 'points' type sparring.
Telling us style X will win against style Y when they are competing in style X's ring and with their rules, referee and judges is a bit like telling us that Manchester United players can compete against an Aussie rules team in Australia who are using Aussie rules, pitch etc. while Man U use FA rules and playing their normal football game then wondering why they lost.


----------



## Axiom

Let's be real, if you get beat up in a Muay Thai ring against a specific opponent, then odds are the same will result in a no-holds-barred street fight. I don't think the Muay Thai fighter out in the street will crawl into a fetus position simply because open hand strikes are added to the mix


----------



## MA_Student

.


----------



## Archtkd

Axiom said:


> Let's be real, if you get beat up in a Muay Thai ring against a specific opponent, then odds are the same will result in a no-holds-barred street fight. I don't think the Muay Thai fighter out in the street will crawl into a fetus position simply because open hand strikes are added to the mix


----------



## Axiom

I do believe however that a modern day TaeKwondo master with a natural ability to fight (that is to say mentality and skillset that go hand in hand) would beat the Muay Thai guys from 1964 that the Kyokushi team beat, due to the superior athlete syndrome.  I would like to think that athletes got that much better that even an outsider, like a TKD guy, would win against someone from the 60s, if the TKD guy was sent back in a time machine.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I do believe however that a modern day TaeKwondo master with a natural ability to fight (that is to say mentality and skillset that go hand in hand) would beat the Muay Thai guys from 1964 that the Kyokushi team beat, due to the superior athlete syndrome.  I would like to think that athletes got that much better that even an outsider, like a TKD guy, would win against someone from the 60s, if the TKD guy was sent back in a time machine.


Who cares.....time machine? seriously what do you think this is doctor who? Who'd win in 60s v today? Who cares...man seriously why does this matter to you so much just get on with your training and work on bettering yourself do the best you cAn do with what you have. Even if you don't like your school just make do with what you can and be as good as you possibly can good luck to you


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Who cares.....time machine? seriously what do you think this is doctor who? Who'd win in 60s v today? Who cares



I believe in the athlete equivalence of the Flynn effect.


----------



## Axiom

The Flynn effect first manifested itself when people of average IQ of the new generation took IQ tests from the 60s and scored in the genius range. Pretty amazing, and scary.....

Some form of equivalence in atheletes is probably in effect too.


----------



## Buka

IQ tests from the 60s.

That could be a movie, right there.


----------



## Axiom

Buka said:


> IQ tests from the 60s.
> 
> That could be a movie, right there.



I should tease people who belong to the 60s generation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I should tease people who belong to the 60s generation.


Careful with that - they're getting old. Old martial artists are mean!


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Let's be real, if you get beat up in a Muay Thai ring against a specific opponent, then odds are the same will result in a no-holds-barred street fight. I don't think the Muay Thai fighter out in the street will crawl into a fetus position simply because open hand strikes are added to the mix



Is this true? Like, if it's a no-holds-barred street fight, you can grab a knife or tire iron, right?


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Let's be real, if you get beat up in a Muay Thai ring against a specific opponent, then odds are the same will result in a no-holds-barred street fight. I don't think the Muay Thai fighter out in the street will crawl into a fetus position simply because open hand strikes are added to the mix



What on earth are you talking about? 



Axiom said:


> I do believe however that a modern day TaeKwondo master with a natural ability to fight (that is to say mentality and skillset that go hand in hand) would beat the Muay Thai guys from 1964 that the Kyokushi team beat, due to the superior athlete syndrome.  I would like to think that athletes got that much better that even an outsider, like a TKD guy, would win against someone from the 60s, if the TKD guy was sent back in a time machine.



You are never going to make it as a comedy writer you know.



Axiom said:


> The Flynn effect first manifested itself when people of average IQ of the new generation took IQ tests from the 60s and scored in the genius range. Pretty amazing, and scary.....
> 
> Some form of equivalence in atheletes is probably in effect too.



Which 'new' generation is that then?

_The Flynn effect_

_The Flynn effect is named after James R. Flynn, a New Zealand based political scientist. He discovered that IQ scores worldwide appear to be slowly rising at a rate of around three IQ points per decade. Attempted explanations have included improved nutrition, a trend towards smaller families, better education, greater environmental complexity, and heterosis. Tests are therefore renormalized occasionally to obtain mean scores of 100, for example WISC-R (1974), WISC-III (1991) and WISC-IV (2003). *Hence it is difficult to compare IQ scores measured years apart, unless this is compensated for*. There is recent evidence that the tendency for intelligence scores to rise has ended in some first world countries.
_
Not exactly people scoring genius level then. Intelligence Tests

I'm not sure why you are bringing up karateka beating MT when your OP is about MT beating TKD, it is irrelevant.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Is this true? Like, if it's a no-holds-barred street fight, you can grab a knife or tire iron, right?



 I was referring to weapons free no-holds-barred challenge match. And yes, I would bet on the same guy that won in the ring, if he won convincingly. Wouldn't you?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> What on earth are you talking about?
> 
> 
> .



You seemed to imply that the rule restriction in a ring was in favor of the Muay Thai Fighter and handicapped the TaeKwondo fighter. I don't believe if the TKD guy got slaughtered in a ring, that he would stand a better chance in a street fight against the same fighter. If both were unarmed that is...


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I was referring to weapons free no-holds-barred challenge match. And yes, I would bet on the same guy that won in the ring, if he won convincingly. Wouldn't you?



I'm sorry, I'm still not clear on the rules of the no-holds-barred challenge match. Are your friends allowed to help you fight? 

How about sucker-punching? Are you allowed to attack the other guy before he even knows there's a fight on?


----------



## Steve




----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> I'm sorry, I'm still not clear on the rules of the no-holds-barred challenge match. Are your friends allowed to help you fight?
> 
> How about sucker-punching? Are you allowed to attack the other guy before he even knows there's a fight on?



No. Let's assume a respectful challenge match took place, only this time with all unarmed means allowed, and no protection of any kind worn.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> You seemed to imply that the rule restriction in a ring was in favor of the Muay Thai Fighter and handicapped the TaeKwondo fighter. I don't believe if the TKD guy got slaughtered in a ring, that he would stand a better chance in a street fight against the same fighter. If both were unarmed that is...



I can't imagine why I'd think Muay Thai fighters would have the advantage in a Muay Thai match............ like it would have anything to do with experience or knowing how to fight Muay Thai ? If a TKDist lost ( 'lost' such a better word than slaughtered)  in a MT bout all it means is that they lost a MT bout, it's a competition not an altercation on the 'street. MT fighters get beaten in the MT ring because it is, I repeat, *a competition.*


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> No. Let's assume a respectful challenge match took place, only this time with all unarmed means allowed, and no protection of any kind worn.


So are they allowed to kick the groin, poke the eyes, bite, spit, pull hair, elbow to the spine, hit the back of head, head butt or use joint manipulation


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I can't imagine why I'd think Muay Thai fighters would have the advantage in a Muay Thai match............ *.*



Me neither, if both arts are equal, given the generous rule set.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> So are they allowed to kick the groin, poke the eyes, bite, spit, pull hair, elbow to the spine, hit the back of head, head butt or use joint manipulation



Yup.


----------



## TrueJim

MA_Student said:


> So are they allowed to kick the groin, poke the eyes, bite, spit, pull hair, elbow to the spine, hit the back of head, head butt or use joint manipulation



Yah you know...respectful.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Yup.


Then it's impossible to know because Muay Thai fighters don't do any of that stuff they don't train to do it and they don't train to defend it. A street fight is completely different to a sporting match


----------



## MA_Student

TrueJim said:


> Yah you know...respectful.


Hey it ain't very respectful of a guy to challenge me to a fight lol


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Then it's impossible to know because Muay Thai fighters don't do any of that stuff they don't train to do it and they don't train to defend it.



Nor do TaeKwondo guys. And really, training for that in controlled conditions is not going to make any difference IMO. You don't know how the individual brain reacts to the situation.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Yah you know...respectful.



Respectful= no sucker punch before a dude says GO. anything goes. I have been in a a no-holds-barred challenge match. Wanna take a guess how I did


----------



## MA_Student

.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Respectful= no sucker punch before a dude says GO. anything goes. I have been in a a no-holds-barred challenge match. Wanna take a guess how I did



Of course you have. A friend of mine used to compete in Russian no holds barred comps. Harsh but then he's a hard man.




Axiom said:


> Nor do TaeKwondo guys.



How do you know that? Have you seen everyone training? the TKD place I went to covered self defence *and* attack techniques very nicely. Just because you don't train it doesn't mean others don't.


----------



## MA_Student

.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Of course you have. A friend of mine used to compete in Russian no holds barred comps. Harsh but then he's a hard man.
> 
> .



Then I win the testosterone award for this one. I got dragged out of a room at a boarding school as an 18 year old and was forced to fight bare knuckled on concrete. Ate an elbow to the head but after that he went flying. I had no idea if I could fight. Absolutely surreal experience. And then he got up and I threw him again. And then he had enough.


----------



## MA_Student

Okay  I'm out of here


----------



## Axiom

Anyway, I'm sure just as many (or few)  Muay Thai schools train/ simulate self defence as TKD ones


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Anyway, I'm sure just as many (or few)  Muay Thai schools train/ simulate self defence as TKD ones


How are you sure? 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Nor do TaeKwondo guys. And really, training for that in controlled conditions is not going to make any difference IMO. You don't know how the individual brain reacts to the situation.


I'm fairly certain some of my friends who do TKD practice those, it's part of the self-defense in the curriculum.


----------



## Headhunter

Axiom said:


> Anyway, I'm sure just as many (or few)  Muay Thai schools train/ simulate self defence as TKD ones


No they don't because Muay Thai is a sport plain and simple. Muay Thai is for the ring...yes the moves can be applied for self defence but no Muay Thai coach is going to teach someone to kick the groin or eye gouge because that's illegal in Muay Thai and would get your fighters disqualified


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it would be more accurate to say that people are unconvinced that you have the expertise to determine a shortcoming of TKD vs a shortcoming of Axiom. Given that many of the people who are pointing out the error of your thinking have been training for 10 times as long as you, perhaps you'd do well to give some thought to your position.



No. It doesn't matter if he is making the wrong assumptions, asking the wrong questions or upsetting the establishment by trying to nut out an idea.

It is the asking questions and testing ideas that will make him the better martial artist.

Most people don't even know how to make good assumptions what tests to use or how to ask the correct questions let alone how to critically spot BS.

And never will if asking the wrong questions gets censored in favor of following authority.


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Anyway, I'm sure just as many (or few)  Muay Thai schools train/ simulate self defence as TKD ones



Self defence is what is called a red herring. In that it is an indefinable mess that cannot be tested for effectiveness. People who play the self defence card rely on nobody ever really having to use the system in that manner so therefore never being able to examine its shortcomings.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Self defence is what is called a red herring. In that it is an indefinable mess that cannot be tested for effectiveness. People who play the self defence card rely on nobody ever really having to use the system in that manner so therefore never being able to examine its shortcomings.



I'm the first one to agree. It's bad leftover from the 80s Karate craze. I feel it's even more dangerous to instill false security than none at all, which is what they do. I have an iron jaw but want NO part of street fights. Just so many variables and it's not worth it.


----------



## Axiom

I have a buddy who is always quick to jump into situations, trying to act a peacemaker or the police, and I always yell at him to get out of there. He could be stabbed. It is never taken well, and yeah I get it.. but still he puts me in a very difficult situation as the buddy if he bit more than he could chew on.


----------



## TrueJim

drop bear said:


> Self defence is what is called a red herring. In that it is an indefinable mess that cannot be tested for effectiveness.



And as we've noted here before, *Self Defense* is not at all the same thing as a *Street Fight*.  Self defense is (for example) when three young men come up from behind you at a dark corner, armed with knifes or whatnot, with intent to rob or otherwise do you harm. A street fight is when two knuckleheads square off against each other in the street, usually over something stupid. And neither of those is very much like military *Combat*, which is itself another thing entirely. Unfortunately, online discussions tend to conflate those three things, as if they're interchangeable.


----------



## drop bear

TrueJim said:


> And as we've noted here before, *Self Defense* is not at all the same thing as a *Street Fight*.  Self defense is (for example) when three young men come up from behind you at a dark corner, armed with knifes or whatnot, with intent to rob or otherwise do you harm. A street fight is when two knuckleheads square off against each other in the street, usually over something stupid. And neither of those is very much like military *Combat*, which is itself another thing entirely. Unfortunately, online discussions tend to conflate those three things, as if they're interchangeable.



The issue you have is there is no truth with that method. If you can't find the interchange between what works in training to what works in sport to what works in a street fight, mugging or war.

You can never make links based on evidence. And will be reliant on stories.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> The issue you have is there is no truth with that method. If you can't find the interchange between what works in training to what works in sport to what works in a street fight, mugging or war.
> 
> You can never make links based on evidence. And will be reliant on stories.


For a large portion, there _*should*_ be plenty of sport-related evidence of what is workable. There are things that won't fit (they don't get tested in sport, or sport doesn't provide good equivalency), but the basics should be available from sport.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> No. It doesn't matter if he is making the wrong assumptions, asking the wrong questions or upsetting the establishment by trying to nut out an idea.
> 
> It is the asking questions and testing ideas that will make him the better martial artist.
> 
> Most people don't even know how to make good assumptions what tests to use or how to ask the correct questions let alone how to critically spot BS.
> 
> And never will if asking the wrong questions gets censored in favor of following authority.



Dude i know you have a bee in your bonet about this topic but Axiom is not about learning anything. 

Nobody is offended by the questions: they are annoyed by the statements of fact that are in fact opinions that should really have been phrased as questions.

Axiom thinks he knows and dismisses those who know better witb zero respect for their experience or altruistic desire to educate him. He ignores inconvenient points and talks a load of rubbish with not even a hint that he's considering what has been said to him. There is no great conspiracy to silence decent, just a lot of folks with knowledge and a guy who doesnt want to hear.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> The issue you have is there is no truth with that method. If you can't find the interchange between what works in training to what works in sport to what works in a street fight, mugging or war.
> 
> You can never make links based on evidence. And will be reliant on stories.



Physics doesnt alter in the dojo. So long as training is appropriately resistive and alive, and you train with as wide a variety of opponents you should be able to have justified confidence in your techniques.

IMO Things you just can't do in practice like eye gouge or arm break you need to train the skills (like accuracy or power) and practicd as if they fail so you can compensate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

DaveB said:


> a guy who doesnt want to hear.


It makes no sense for Axiom to start a thread so he can argue with everybody. If I start a thread, I'll put myself in "listen mode". I want to hear other's opinions. I already know my own opinion.


----------



## Axiom

DaveB said:


> Dude i know you have a bee in your bonet about this topic but Axiom is not about learning anything.
> 
> Nobody is offended by the questions: they are annoyed by the statements of fact that are in fact opinions that should really have been phrased as questions.
> 
> Axiom thinks he knows and dismisses those who know better witb zero respect for their experience or altruistic desire to educate him. He ignores inconvenient points and talks a load of rubbish with not even a hint that he's considering what has been said to him. There is no great conspiracy to silence decent, just a lot of folks with knowledge and a guy who doesnt want to hear.



Maybe if people put forward arguments instead of attacks on my person, I would actually concider them. RTKD objected that their footwork is not that of modern WTF and ITF competitors, but I'm not at all certain that the old-school styles would fare any better. I suspect the opposite actually. One style is too light off their feet, the other is just plain average ,  some would say "slow" .


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> I don't think   - X  number of years spent in the art = knowledge about the system in a ring/the application of Taekwondo. It all depends on their sparring experience.
> 
> I welcome people who have done hard sparring against other striking systems, like I have and continue to do. That way you really test yourself and your system, if you are evenly matched.


I have experience in the ring kickboxing and Thai boxing. I gave a pretty thorough reply to your OP but you may not have seen it. 
The only system I have seriously trained for competition and ring fighting is TKD. 

I find that it works quite well when used correctly. accept crescent kicks though I have never been very great at them haha. There are just easier techniques for me. 
The movement, distance, and timing are my main tools. 
When there is space enough for me to use the tools to my abilities, I use almost only TKD.
The only thing I had to supplement was clinch fighting. also basic boxing to gain an understanding.
TKD and MT are not the same. But they each have trade offs. Strengths and weaknesses. I outline them in my earlier post


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Maybe if people put forward arguments instead of attacks on my person, I would actually concider them. RTKD objected that their footwork is not that of modern WTF and ITF competitors, but I'm not at all certain that the old-school styles would fare any better. I suspect the opposite actually. One style is too light off their feet, the other is just plain average ,  some would say "slow" .


Perhaps you could go back and look at the number of points that were made that you dismissed or failed to discuss. That's not an attack, but an honest suggestion. What has led several people to castigate you is their perception that you're standing by your original conclusion without regard to any conflicting points - to the point that you've dismissed many for unclear reasons (and some for reasons that seem illogical to me, but that may just be me).


----------



## Axiom

paitingman said:


> I have experience in the ring kickboxing and Thai boxing. I gave a pretty thorough reply to your OP but you may not have seen it.
> The only system I have seriously trained for competition and ring fighting is TKD.
> 
> I find that it works quite well when used correctly. accept crescent kicks though I have never been very great at them haha. There are just easier techniques for me.
> The movement, distance, and timing are my main tools.
> When there is space enough for me to use the tools to my abilities, I use almost only TKD.
> The only thing I had to supplement was clinch fighting. also basic boxing to gain an understanding.
> TKD and MT are not the same. But they each have trade offs. Strengths and weaknesses. I outline them in my earlier post



Cool. No, I actually missed that post. Which TKD style is your base?


----------



## paitingman

I trained olympic style/kukki taekwondo and competed only in that manner for the first 5 years or so. 
Then I branched out to more open style ITF and Shotokan competitions. 
I had to adjust and adapt then. And again when I entered kickboxing/MT world. but the tools were all there for the most part.


----------



## Axiom

paitingman said:


> I trained olympic style/kukki taekwondo and competed only in that manner for the first 5 years or so.
> Then I branched out to more open style ITF and Shotokan competitions.
> I had to adjust and adapt then. And again when I entered kickboxing/MT world. but the tools were all there for the most part.



Did the TKD footwork translate to MT rules against skilled opponents?


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> Did the TKD footwork translate to MT rules against skilled opponents?


Yes.
Like I said, at a distance and when I have space to move, I only use TKD movement.
Believe it or not I maybe check 1/10 leg kicks thrown at me. Usually in close range. Other than that I just move or brace and counter. 
If you PM me I can talk more in detail about my personal strategies and what I've found to work well.
Or I can post them here if prompted.


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> Dude i know you have a bee in your bonet about this topic but Axiom is not about learning anything.
> 
> Nobody is offended by the questions: they are annoyed by the statements of fact that are in fact opinions that should really have been phrased as questions.
> 
> Axiom thinks he knows and dismisses those who know better witb zero respect for their experience or altruistic desire to educate him. He ignores inconvenient points and talks a load of rubbish with not even a hint that he's considering what has been said to him. There is no great conspiracy to silence decent, just a lot of folks with knowledge and a guy who doesnt want to hear.



And yet this keeps happening.


----------



## Flying Crane

Axiom said:


> Respectful= no sucker punch before a dude says GO. anything goes. I have been in a a no-holds-barred challenge match. Wanna take a guess how I did


Permanent brain damage?


----------



## drop bear

this thread needs more steve superkick vick.


----------



## Balrog

Axiom said:


> You did not adress the topic.  if you did earlier I must have forgotten it.


Your topic is whether TKD is better than MT.  That topic has been beaten to death over many years.  No style is better than another style.  It's not the martial art, it's the martial artist that is important.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> Cool. No, I actually missed that post. Which TKD style is your base?


Don't know if you noticed, but paitingman's excellent reply tracks pretty well with what I said in my initial response, coming from my background as a Muay Thai guy who has sparred TKD practitioners.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Balrog said:


> Your topic is whether TKD is better than MT.  That topic has been beaten to death over many years.  No style is better than another style.  It's not the martial art, it's the martial artist that is important.


That's been argued though. There are certain styles that are not as good as other styles; I think it's a fair argument that both TKD and MT are better than no touch chi jutsu, or a lot of modern wushu, which is meant more as performance than fighting. Meanwhile there are styles such as Ameridote that are clearly much better than their alternatives.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> No. It doesn't matter if he is making the wrong assumptions, asking the wrong questions or upsetting the establishment by trying to nut out an idea.
> 
> It is the asking questions and testing ideas that will make him the better martial artist.
> 
> Most people don't even know how to make good assumptions what tests to use or how to ask the correct questions let alone how to critically spot BS.
> 
> And never will if asking the wrong questions gets censored in favor of following authority.



Nothing wrong with asking the wrong questions, making the wrong assumptions, or upsetting the establishment. Eventually that can lead to asking the right questions and making better assumptions. 

In order to get there, however, he has to be willing to consider feedback with an open mind. Maybe it's not good for the "establishment" (people with decades of experience in an art) to be dogmatic about their opinions. If so, it's certainly not any better for someone with no experience in that art to be dogmatic in their views of it.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nothing wrong with asking the wrong questions, making the wrong assumptions, or upsetting the establishment. Eventually that can lead to asking the right questions and making better assumptions.
> 
> In order to get there, however, he has to be willing to consider feedback with an open mind. Maybe it's not good for the "establishment" (people with decades of experience in an art) to be dogmatic about their opinions. If so, it's certainly not any better for someone with no experience in that art to be dogmatic in their views of it.








I mean do you thinkmhe is just going to get that? Or is he going to spazzily work tnrough it?


----------



## Axiom

Balrog said:


> No style is better than another style.  It's not the martial art, it's the martial artist that is important.



You say that, but If I had a nickle for every dejected, bitter TKD black belt, I would be a millionare by now. I have never seen such a polar reversal in opinion from former students. The bashing is almost as prevelant from former students, completely disillusioned. I have  never seen anything like that by people who did boxing or BJJ, that it was a complete waste of time.

If there is some boxing or BJJ bashing, I would like to see it. And yes, both are of course far from complete systems, but the approval rating is so much higher.


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> You say that, but If I had a nickle for every dejected, bitter TKD black belt, I would be a millionare by now. I have never seen such a polar reversal in opinion from former students. The bashing is almost just as much from former students themselves, completely disillusioned. I have  never seen anything like that by people who did boxing or BJJ, that it was a complete waiste of time.
> 
> If there is some boxing or BJJ bashing, I would like to see it. And yes, both are of course far from complete systems, but the approval rating is so much higher.



You are not handed as big a bag of false hope when you start though. You go to training and just get mauled by everyone for years. None of this taking out five guys with sick skills buisness.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> You say that, but If I had a nickle for every dejected, bitter TKD black belt, I would be a millionare by now. I have never seen such a polar reversal in opinion from former students. The bashing is almost as prevelant from former students, completely disillusioned. I have  never seen anything like that by people who did boxing or BJJ, that it was a complete waste of time.
> 
> If there is some boxing or BJJ bashing, I would like to see it. And yes, both are of course far from complete systems, but the approval rating is so much higher.


I think much of that comes from two factors: 1) a huge number of people trained in TKD (and TKD offshoots) over a 2-3 decade period (perhaps longer - just my length of awareness of its popularity), and 2) some over-promising by instructors. Add to that the fact that some TKD competition uses rules that reward combat-ineffective tactics, and you get a number of folks who are rightfully dissatisfied. Note that this is not a definitive problem with the sytem of TKD, but with how it was marketed and delivered (including, I suspect - like some areas of Karate - some premature instructors).


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Then I win the testosterone award for this one



I doubt it.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> Maybe if people put forward arguments instead of attacks on my person, I would actually concider them. RTKD objected that their footwork is not that of modern WTF and ITF competitors, but I'm not at all certain that the old-school styles would fare any better. I suspect the opposite actually. One style is too light off their feet, the other is just plain average ,  some would say "slow" .



Then you should go back over the thread as there are a great many comments and replies that are about your argument. I think i've written two,  neither was replied to.

Also consider how you present yourself. Spouting "facts" that are gross generalisations and not even polite about it when contested. If you want discussions to stay on topic try it yourself.


drop bear said:


> And yet this keeps happening.



Oh please.


----------



## DaveB

kempodisciple said:


> That's been argued though. There are certain styles that are not as good as other styles; I think it's a fair argument that both TKD and MT are better than no touch chi jutsu, or a lot of modern wushu, which is meant more as performance than fighting. Meanwhile there are styles such as Ameridote that are clearly much better than their alternatives.



But the kind of pedantry needed to introduce no-touch jutsu into a conversation about fighting styles just drags the conversation down (not calling you a pedant). And if an art is known to exist primarily for purposes other than fighting then it too is a waste of time to discuss.

Frankly we all know what we mean when we say fighting arts etc, and discussion of the outliers just acts as a false equivalence for the actual arts like wing chun or tkd that the usual suspects wish to denigrate. 

It is dog whistle discussion.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I do believe however that a modern day TaeKwondo master with a natural ability to fight (that is to say mentality and skillset that go hand in hand) would beat the Muay Thai guys from 1964 that the Kyokushi team beat, due to the superior athlete syndrome.  I would like to think that athletes got that much better that even an outsider, like a TKD guy, would win against someone from the 60s, if the TKD guy was sent back in a time machine.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Nor do TaeKwondo guys


Speak for yourself.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> You say that, but If I had a nickle for every dejected, bitter TKD black belt, I would be a millionare by now. I have never seen such a polar reversal in opinion from former students. The bashing is almost as prevelant from former students, completely disillusioned. I have  never seen anything like that by people who did boxing or BJJ, that it was a complete waste of time.
> 
> If there is some boxing or BJJ bashing, I would like to see it. And yes, both are of course far from complete systems, but the approval rating is so much higher.



Because they are sports. Boxers do not go around trying to fight in tkd tournaments and expecting to win. 

The issue that might arise there is obe of people being sold a sport while expecting an all conquering martial art. Also training incorrectly for said expectations. 

But when you learn that landing a front kick and drilling front kick technique are not the same thing you can see how an art can be applied to the situation you want just by altering the training.

In fact to me, participation in games like muay thai, boxing matches or mma are ideal ways to train your karate or tkd or wing chun.

Also its really not just tkd, its all traditional arts that pulled in generations with awesome movie fights but were not trained or practiced enough to cope with mma. 

The disillusioned are everywhere. Most just need to adjust how they train.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Maybe if people put forward arguments instead of attacks on my person, I would actually concider them. RTKD objected that their footwork is not that of modern WTF and ITF competitors,


So stating facts is a personal attack to you is it?


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> But the kind of pedantry needed to introduce no-touch jutsu into a conversation about fighting styles just drags the conversation down (not calling you a pedant). And if an art is known to exist primarily for purposes other than fighting then it too is a waste of time to discuss.
> 
> Frankly we all know what we mean when we say fighting arts etc, and discussion of the outliers just acts as a false equivalence for the actual arts like wing chun or tkd that the usual suspects wish to denigrate.
> 
> It is dog whistle discussion.



Unless they share common traits. Like unrealistic feed back.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Unless they share common traits. Like unrealistic feed back.


And that takes us back to the question of whether training flaws are inherent in the art. I would argue they are not, even if they become ubiquitous within it.


----------



## Axiom

The criticism of TaeKwonDo (traditional schools included) is a lack of flow in the system compared to certain Kung Fu styles, undue time given to flexibility and kicking (instead of a more pragmatic approach). Unrealistic and restrictive sparring formats. Incoherence. Non-resisting self defence training. Those are reoccuring themes.


----------



## Tez3

Tez3 said:


> I doubt it.
> View attachment 21007




This is Ian Freeman.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> The criticism of TaeKwonDo (traditional schools included) is a lack of flow in the system compared to certain Kung Fu styles, undue time given to flexibility and kicking (instead of a more pragmatic approach). Unrealistic and restrictive sparring formats. Incoherence. Non-resisting self defence training. Those are reoccuring themes.


I'm curious - why the comparison to CMA now? The OP was about the effectiveness of TKD in a MT-format competition.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

DaveB said:


> But the kind of pedantry needed to introduce no-touch jutsu into a conversation about fighting styles just drags the conversation down (not calling you a pedant). And if an art is known to exist primarily for purposes other than fighting then it too is a waste of time to discuss.
> 
> Frankly we all know what we mean when we say fighting arts etc, and discussion of the outliers just acts as a false equivalence for the actual arts like wing chun or tkd that the usual suspects wish to denigrate.
> 
> It is dog whistle discussion.


I was using them as extremes for my point, but I still think the point in general stands. Regardless of how much dedication you put towards an art, if the art/school is not teaching effective martial arts (which they may claim to be...I know wushu schools that do), then it is not as good as the other styles.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious - why the comparison to CMA now? The OP was about the effectiveness of TKD in a MT-format competition.



Because the criticism is very specific to TKD. It's not just MMA glory seekers who reject it.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> The criticism of TaeKwonDo (traditional schools included) is a lack of flow in the system compared to certain Kung Fu styles, undue time given to flexibility and kicking (instead of a more pragmatic approach). Unrealistic and restrictive sparring formats. Incoherence. Non-resisting self defence training. Those are reoccuring themes.



So you don't think TKD is worth training basically.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> So you don't think TKD is worth training basically.



Depends on your objectives. I have no ambitions and it keeps me in shape.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Depends on your objectives. I have no ambitions and it keeps me in shape.


Then why do you keep complaining about it and pointing out what you perceive as flaws?


----------



## JR 137

Axiom said:


> Depends on your objectives. I have no ambitions and it keeps me in shape.


Then why continue to criticize it for 18 pages now?


----------



## Axiom

I was interested how many would agree. Now again, for those claiming that no style is inferior. Reference me a single source of complaint directed towards Muay Thai as ineffective, a waste of time etc.

Just one.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Depends on your objectives. I have no ambitions and it keeps me in shape.




I would suggest you want to be able to have boasting rights so you can say you have a martial arts black belt for very little effort on your part. We have no way of knowing whether what you say about your school and instructors is correct, but it doesn't reflect well on you at all that you are willing to slag off your instructors, school and style while training for what you say is an easy black belt. There is a definite lack of integrity when you are willing to defame your school etc just for a black belt to put around your waist.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I was interested how many would agree. Now again, for those claiming that no style is inferior. Reference me a single source of complaint directed towards Muay Thai as ineffective, a waste of time etc.
> 
> Just one.



>shakes head< because you really haven't been reading what people write have you?


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Reference me a single source of complaint directed towards Muay Thai as ineffective, a waste of time etc.



The only source I've been able to find are blowhard Internet warriors on various martial arts forums -- no reputable sources.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> The only source I've been able to find are blowhard Internet warriors on various martial arts forums -- no reputable sources.



I have never heard of a disgruntled former Muay Thai student lamenting Muay Thai as weak, inneffective, stupid, outdated, silly, waste of time, "sucky". Superlatives that are not difficult to find about TaeKwonDo.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Reference me a single source of complaint directed towards Muay Thai as ineffective,


Ineffective for what?


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Ineffective for what?



Learning how to fight.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I have never heard of a disgruntled former Muay Thai student lamenting Muay Thai as weak, inneffective, stupid, outdated, silly, waste of time, "sucky". Superlatives that are not difficult to find about TaeKwonDo.



As others have already pointed out, that could be due in part to the fact that there are so many more taekwondo schools than there are muay thai schools. You're going to hear less griping if there are fewer students. 







But as one example, here's a guy who thinks muay thai has some issues when it comes to street fights:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Muay-Thai-considered-a-good-martial-art-for-street-fighting

"The average streetfight lasts 30-60 seconds so you won't have the time to break someone down with leg kicks - a basic Muay Thai strategy - the way you would if you were fighting in the ring."

But of course the Internet is full of people saying "This martial arts is ineffective..." and "That martial art sucks..."  It doesn't mean much.  I agree with the philosophy: just go train.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Learning how to fight.


Learning how to fight where and in what context?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> As others have already pointed out, that could be due in part to the fact that there are so many more taekwondo schools than there are muay thai schools. You're going to hear less griping if there are fewer students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But as one example, here's a guy who thinks muay thai has some issues when it comes to street fights:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-Muay-Thai-considered-a-good-martial-art-for-street-fighting
> 
> "The average streetfight lasts 30-60 seconds so you won't have the time to break someone down with leg kicks - a basic Muay Thai strategy - the way you would if you were fighting in the ring."
> .



Lol, that was a very mild criticism, which is applicable to any martial art. Show me a source proclaiming: "Muay Thai *sucks*" from a former student.


----------



## Axiom

Wow, MMA gyms are the most prevalent these days? That's sad. Who want's to be a jack of all trades


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Learning how to fight.



But Axiom, learning how to fight for *what*? 

A military combat situation where you're allowed to just go up and stab and punch throats in the dark? 
A self-defense situation where 3 wannabe gang members come up behind you in the dark with knives as part of their gang initiation? 
A pissing contest between two overly-macho drunk assholes outside a club? 
Previously you answered this question by saying that by "fight" you meant a "respectful street fight" -- but honestly, that's the least interesting (or likely) scenario that I can imagine, so I don't know why you even care about the answer. You're asking which martial art would be the most effective in the kinds of fights *that don't matter at all?   *Shouldn't you be asking which martial art would be most effective against the three armed gang members?  Or which martial art would be most useful in a combat setting? It's like you're asking which martial art is most effective against unicorns: (a) Why do you care. And (b) How would you ever prove your point?

That having been said, I do happen to know for a fact that taekwondo is the most effective martial art against unicorns.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Wow, MMA gyms are the most prevalent these days? That's sad. Who want's to be a jack of all trades


What's so sad about covering a wide range of situations? There are arts that cover the same territory as MMA training (none I've seen do it as well).


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Lol, that was a very mild criticism, which is applicable to any martial art. Show me a source proclaiming: "Muay Thai *sucks*" from a former student.



So you're asking that we find...what...a blog post or forum post from a former muay thai student where he or she says that muay thai sucks?  A random posting on the internet from somebody you don't know would convince you of what exactly?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> But Axiom, learning how to fight for *what*?
> 
> A military combat situation where you're allowed to just go up and stab and punch throats in the dark?
> A self-defense situation where 3 wannabe gang members come up behind you in the dark with knives as part of their gang initiation?
> A pissing contest between two overly-macho drunk assholes outside a club?
> Previously you answered this question by saying that by "fight" you meant a "respectful street fight" -- but honestly, that's the least interesting (or likely) scenario that I can imagine, so I don't know why you even care about the answer. You're asking which martial art would be the most effective in the kinds of fights *that don't matter at all?   *Shouldn't you be asking which martial art would be most effective against the three armed gang members?  Or which martial art would be most useful in a combat setting? It's like you're asking which martial art is most effective against unicorns: (a) Why do you care. And (b) How would you ever prove your point?
> 
> That having been said, I do happen to know for a fact that taekwondo is the most effective martial art against unicorns.



A good gym will cover your three points as good as humanly possible. *There is no self defence school that saves you from being stabbed by a gang. *


----------



## Xue Sheng

Truly earns the Beat a Dead horse award


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> So you're asking that we find...what...a blog post or forum post from a former muay thai student where he or she says that muay thai sucks?  A random posting on the internet from somebody you don't know would convince you of what exactly?



Yes, there aren't even trolls claiming Muay Thai sucks, because nobody would take them seriously.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> A good gym will cover your three points as good as humanly possible. *There is no self defence school that saves you from being stabbed by a gang. *


 
I disagree. Good self defense schools invariably teach awareness of your surroundings, avoidance, de-escalation, and escape, which are the most important parts of self-defense. I think you're confusing "fight" with "self defense".


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Yes, there aren't even trolls claiming Muay Thai sucks, because nobody would take them seriously.



"muay thai sucks" - Google Search


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> A good gym will cover your three points as good as humanly possible. *There is no self defence school that saves you from being stabbed by a gang. *


Um, no. I won't cover military combat tactics, and nor will any of the schools I've gone to.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Show me a source proclaiming: "Muay Thai *sucks*" from a former student.


And that would prove what exactly?


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Wow, MMA gyms are the most prevalent these days? That's sad. Who want's to be a jack of all trades



Here's another style you don't understand. You pass judgement on a lot of things you know absolutely nothing about, that could be classed as trolling which I think is what you have been doing for whatever reason.
I have yet to see a 'respectful' street fight lol. I suppose you know Muay Thai isn't very good at takedowns, wrist and ankle locks etc lol. It's very good for what it does, just like other styles, it has a purpose and sticks to it. Judo is good at what it does yet we don't compare Judo to Muay Thai, why do you think that is?
You confuse self defence with fighting and confuse fighting with sparring. You don't understand competition rules, like to disrespect the style you do, you call other posters an embarrassment, complain you are being attacked when challenged on your opinions, ignore information and others opinions and generally dismiss posters here as being beneath you have I missed anything out here? Conclusion...you are trolling.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> There is no self defence school that saves you from being stabbed by a gang.


How many self defence schools have you attended to make that determination?


----------



## RTKDCMB

TrueJim said:


> That having been said, I do happen to know for a fact that taekwondo is the most effective martial art against unicorns.


Bloody Unicorns, always looking for a fight.


----------



## TrueJim

I'm not making this up. You can try it yourself. I just googled "xxx sucks" where xxx is the name of a martial art - the entire phrase in quotes. Then I wrote down how many hits Google gives you for each search:

Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
Jiu Jitsu sucks  = 3,760 results
Karate sucks = 2,570 results
Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
BJJ sucks = 575 results
Judo sucks = 523 results
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results

What can we conclude from this? That very few people spell-out Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Wow, MMA gyms are the most prevalent these days? That's sad. Who want's to be a jack of all trades


I don't know maybe....hmmm mma fighters?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> "muay thai sucks" - Google Search



LMAO.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> I'm not making this up. You can try it yourself. I just googled "xxx sucks" where xxx is the name of a martial art - the entire phrase in quotes. Then I wrote down how many hits Google gives you for each search:
> 
> Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
> Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
> Jiu Jitsu sucks  = 3,760 results
> Karate sucks = 2,570 results
> Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
> BJJ sucks = 575 results
> Judo sucks = 523 results
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results
> 
> What can we conclude from this? That very few people spell-out Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.



I would like to see the context as well. Google Search isn't an exact science


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I would like to see the context as well. Google Search isn't an exact science


No, but you were asserting that there would be almost no (actually, I think you said none) former students saying "Muay Thai sucks". Clearly there are some. As others have pointed out, that's neither surprising nor particularly significant.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> No, but you were asserting that there would be almost no (actually, I think you said none) former students saying "Muay Thai sucks". Clearly there are some. As others have pointed out, that's neither surprising nor particularly significant.



Clearly? He did not show me a single search hit of a former student proclaiming that Muay Thai sucks. If he does, I will shut my keyboard hands.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Clearly? He did not show me a single search hit of a former student proclaiming that Muay Thai sucks. If he does, I will shut my keyboard hands.


Did you bother to click on the link he included?


----------



## RTKDCMB

TrueJim said:


> I'm not making this up. You can try it yourself. I just googled "xxx sucks" where xxx is the name of a martial art - the entire phrase in quotes. Then I wrote down how many hits Google gives you for each search:
> 
> Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
> Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
> Jiu Jitsu sucks  = 3,760 results
> Karate sucks = 2,570 results
> Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
> BJJ sucks = 575 results
> Judo sucks = 523 results
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results
> 
> What can we conclude from this? That very few people spell-out Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.


I just Googled with the name of my school being xxx and got zero results from three different spellings. My school must be best.


----------



## Axiom

LMAO. There is such a person. Look at the interest the comment generated: 

.Muay Thai Sucks - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos

Number of replies: ZERO.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> I just Googled with the name of my school being xxx and got zero results from three different spellings. My school must be best.



Is you instructor Jhoon Rhee? The Jhoon Rhee who Bruce Lee buddied with?


----------



## Tez3

Misc.

Drunk tourist vs. Muay Thai fighter doesn’t go as expected

Got to like the first one.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Misc.
> 
> Drunk tourist vs. Muay Thai fighter doesn’t go as expected
> 
> Got to like the first one.



Hilarious. What a freak show. There are weight classes for a reason.


----------



## Axiom

*"way too quick for me, had to go gorrilla styles, mind you was on the third bottle of rum "

/Poster of the clip.

*
NEXT.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Is you instructor Jhoon Rhee? The Jhoon Rhee who Bruce Lee buddied with?


Wrong country.


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> Is you instructor Jhoon Rhee? The Jhoon Rhee who Bruce Lee buddied with?



Do you have a problem with Jhoon Rhee?


----------



## Axiom

CB Jones said:


> Do you have a problem with Jhoon Rhee?



LOL. No, why should I?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> *"way too quick for me, had to go gorrilla styles, mind you was on the third bottle of rum "
> 
> /Poster of the clip.
> 
> *
> NEXT.


You are creating moving targets. You said there was nobody complaining about MT. Folks showed you people complaining. You don't like the reasons/context of the complaints - have you analyzed those as skeptically on TKD complaints?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> You are creating moving targets. You said there was nobody complaining about MT. Folks showed you people complaining. You don't like the reasons/context of the complaints - have you analyzed those as skeptically on TKD complaints?


Any time he realizes he's wrong he chooses something else to focus on until he can't argue that anymore. That's how this has 20+ pages, along with his other threads.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Any time he realizes he's wrong he chooses something else to focus on until he can't argue that anymore. That's how this has 20+ pages, along with his other threads.



Perhaps he's actually 12 years old and stuck in his bedroom with chickenpox so he's trolling us for amusement.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps he's actually 12 years old and stuck in his bedroom with chickenpox so he's trolling us for amusement.


Oh, either way I have no doubt he's trolling us. I'm just bored at work right now.


----------



## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> Oh, either way I have no doubt he's trolling us. I'm just bored at work right now.



Always much better than work!


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> LOL. No, why should I?



No....was just curious.  You seem unhappy with TKD so I was just curious if you didn't care for him as well.


----------



## Axiom

CB Jones said:


> so I was just curious i you didn't care for him as well.



.He is blamed for commercialising TaeKwondo in the United States, which in turn led to its degradation and lowering of standards. But I have no personal stance or research on the validity of those accusations.


----------



## Axiom

Do I think TaeKwondo as taught today is inferior to some other arts as a system? Yes.

Do I think some parts of TaeKwondo are superior to those other arts? Yes.

That sums up my view. It's not all black and white.


----------



## Tez3

and you know this how? 

What you are saying is every TKD instructor and every school everywhere is teaching inferior martial arts. Not trolling much are you


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> .He is blamed for commercialising TaeKwondo in the United States, which in turn led to its degradation and lowering of standards.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "commercializing" taekwondo. Isn't everybody who charges money to teach a martial art "commercializing" the martial art? 

What do you mean by "commercializing"?


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> .He is blamed for commercialising TaeKwondo in the United States, which in turn led to its degradation and lowering of standards. But I have no personal stance or research on the validity of those accusations.



Ok.....the founder of the style my son trains actually sponsored Jhoon Rhee to come to America.  Lol


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "commercializing" taekwondo. Isn't everybody who charges money to teach a martial art "commercializing" the martial art?
> 
> What do you mean by "commercializing"?


I suggest you read this
On Jhoon Rhee and TKD


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I suggest you read this
> On Jhoon Rhee and TKD



You have now explained exactly why you are here. I think you had probably better scuttle off back to that site and you can write all about your experiences here can't you.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> It's not all black and white.


Because there are color belts too.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You have now explained exactly why you are here. I think you had probably better scuttle off back to that site and you can write all about your experiences here can't you.



I am not a member of Bullshido.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I am not a member of Bullshido.



Doesn't matter, you posted comments from there as proof of something you said was true which is really very funny especially as comments under 'your' proof dispute it .
Someone else's opinion doesn't constitute proof.


----------



## CB Jones

Tez3 said:


> Doesn't matter, you posted comments from there as proof of something you said was true which is really very funny especially as comments under 'your' proof dispute it .
> Someone else's opinion doesn't constitute proof.



So what are you trying to say.....that shironinja hasn't been corroborated as a credible source?


----------



## Flying Crane

Axiom said:


> I suggest you read this
> On Jhoon Rhee and TKD


I read the article.  Please explain to my why I should be outraged.  Apparently I am missing something.

But I'm a bit slow, sometimes...


----------



## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> So what are you trying to say.....that shironinja hasn't been corroborated as a credible source?



It's also amusing that shironinja used other people's posts and info to give his opinion ( he says quite openly that he searched through the site) which was in turn cited by the OP as being proof of what he was saying.


----------



## Axiom

*Jhoon Rhee* -The Father of American TaeKwonDo. Ah, yes, and what do we associate TaeKwondo with in America?

It's as if father of American TaeKwondo is a good thing


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> *Jhoon Rhee* -The Father of American TaeKwonDo. Ah, yes, and what do we associate TaeKwondo with in America?
> 
> It's as if father of American TaeKwondo is a good thing



Give it a rest mate. What you are now doing is actually one of the worse things you can do here........ you. are. boring. us.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Give it a rest mate. What you are now doing is actually one of the worse things you can do here........ you. are. boring. us.




Now that's a tragedy.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> *Jhoon Rhee* -The Father of American TaeKwonDo. Ah, yes, and what do we associate TaeKwondo with in America?
> 
> It's as if father of American TaeKwondo is a good thing


Seriously why are you still training taekwondo you obviously have no enjoyment of it. If I hated my style as much as you do I wouldn't be training it.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Seriously why are you still training taekwondo you obviously have no enjoyment of it. If I hated my style as much as you do I wouldn't be training it.



I have already answered that question multiple times. I don't live in the US. It is not a daycare center over here.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I have already answered that question multiple times. I don't live in the US. It is not a daycare center over here.


Okay good to know


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I have already answered that question multiple times. I don't live in the US. *It is not a daycare center over here*.



But you're in it.


----------



## Grenadier

*Admin's Note: *

Keep it civil, folks.  You can constructively criticize a system, but flat-out style bashing is strictly forbidden.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Grenadier said:


> *Admin's Note: *
> 
> Keep it civil, folks.  You can constructively criticize a system, but flat-out style bashing is strictly forbidden.


I have only one comment: 

EEAAAAGH!!

That's the same comment I have for every post you put up here. That avatar freaks me out.


----------



## TrueJim

I asked: What do you mean by "commercializing" taekwondo?



Axiom said:


> I suggest you read this
> On Jhoon Rhee and TKD



I read the article, and it talks about how Jhoon Rhee introduced a code of ethics into his curriculum. 

But that doesn't answer my question. What do you mean by "commercializing" taekwondo?


----------



## TrueJim

Tez3 said:


> Give it a rest mate. What you are now doing is actually one of the worse things you can do here........ you. are. boring. us.



I thought you were going to say the worst thing he can do is insult Jhoon Rhee.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> I asked: What do you mean by "commercializing" taekwondo?
> 
> 
> 
> I read the article, and it talks about how Jhoon Rhee introduced a code of ethics into his curriculum.
> 
> But that doesn't answer my question. What do you mean by "commercializing" taekwondo?



*commercialize
kəˈməːʃ(ə)lʌɪz/*
_*verb*_

*manage or exploit (an organization, activity, etc.) in a way designed to make a profit.*


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> *commercialize
> kəˈməːʃ(ə)lʌɪz/*
> _*verb*_
> 
> *manage or exploit (an organization, activity, etc.) in a way designed to make a profit.*



But...Jhoon Rhee didn't invent the idea of charging students for martial arts lessons. I mean...that idea goes back a long way.

So why are you picking on Jhoon Rhee by saying that he ruined taekwondo by "commercializing" it?  He's not the first person to open a martial arts school and charge for lessons.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Axiom said:


> *Jhoon Rhee* -The Father of American TaeKwonDo. Ah, yes, and what do we associate TaeKwondo with in America?
> 
> It's as if father of American TaeKwondo is a good thing


My 1st CMA school used exactly the same building as Jhoon Rhee's 1st US TKD school in Austin, Texas. Jhoon Rhee once said, "It takes 6 months to develop a good side kick".

All MA styles have it's specialty.

- TKD's side kick,
- MT's roundhouse kick,
- Boxing's hook punch,
- Chinese wrestling's head lock,
- Wrestling's single leg,
- Judo's hip throw,
- BJJ's ground game,


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> He is blamed for commercialising TaeKwondo in the United States, which in turn led to its degradation and lowering of standards.



*WHO* blames Jhoon Rhee for commercializing taekwondo and thereby degrading it? I've never heard this accusation before.

Aside: celebrates his 80th birthday by doing 100 pushups in under a minute. The man is a titan.


----------



## TrueJim

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My 1st CMA school used exactly the same building as Jhoon Rhee's 1st US TKD school in Austin, Texas.



This building, if my previous research is right: Google Maps

It's a fitness center now.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

TrueJim said:


> This building, if my previous research is right: Google Maps
> 
> It's a fitness center now.


That's the place.

It's at the corner of the 34 St and Guadalupes St. Later on it became a "topless bar". Not sure what it is today. Since it's not far from the Austin Mental hospital, many strange guys walked into my school.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> *commercialize
> kəˈməːʃ(ə)lʌɪz/*
> _*verb*_
> 
> *manage or exploit (an organization, activity, etc.) in a way designed to make a profit.*



*Commercialise* ....... just saying.


----------



## Tez3

TrueJim said:


> I thought you were going to say the worst thing he can do is insult Jhoon Rhee.



To be honest I've never heard of him which as I've been around martial arts a long time, means few people *if any* are accusing him of anything. As I hadn't heard of him I looked him up using google fu, no accusations, nothing dubious or suspicious at all. Yet again the OP is disrespecting people he doesn't know, making up statements and generally sh!t stirring. I don't know if he realises what it says about him not Jhoon Rhee.


----------



## TrueJim

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's at the corner of the 34 St and Guadalupes St. Later on it became a "topless bar". Not sure what it is today. Since it's not far from the Austin Mental hospital, many strange guys walked into my school.



Now it's next-door to a Brazilian Waxing place, thus proving that BJJ was not the only art to derive from Brazil.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> But...Jhoon Rhee didn't invent the idea of charging students for martial arts lessons. I mean...that idea goes back a long way.



Shotokan schools fails even dedicated students in their black belt tests. So no, it is by no means certain that just because schools charge for belts, that they do it out of a profit interest first and foremost.


----------



## TrueJim

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I've never heard of him which as I've been around martial arts a long time...



I don't think there's any reason why people outside the U.S. would have necessarily heard of Rhee. Of course here in the suburbs of D.C. he's a bit of a legend; he now lives a couple towns over from me. He was teaching "Korean Karate" in Texas until General Choi convinced Rhee to call his art "taekwondo", and so Rhee became the first teacher of taekwondo in the U.S. From Austin, Rhee relocated here to D.C. where he opened a successful chain of schools. 

Anyway, back to the topic: 

It sounds like what Axiom is saying is that he thinks U.S. taekwondo is bad, and since Jhoon Rhee is the father of U.S. taekwondo, it's Rhee's fault.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

TrueJim said:


> Now it's next-door to a Brazilian Waxing place, thus proving that BJJ was not the only art to derive from Brazil.


Jhoon Rhee also taught class in "University of Texas at Austin" too. I had met many of his students. They all said good thing about him. Jhoon Rhee did emphasized "side kick" very much. I believe Jhoon left Austin a little bit before 1973.


----------



## Tez3

TrueJim said:


> It sounds like what Axiom is saying is that he thinks U.S. taekwondo is bad, and since Jhoon Rhee is the father of U.S. taekwondo, it's Rhee's fault.



He doesn't like the TKD he does nor his instructor either but won't leave because he knows he's getting his black belt next year. He knows he's getting it because the gradings in his place are 'lax' ( his words) and he's rather than have any sort of true test either a grading or work done in class. Most styles apart from Muay Thai are inferior according to him, MMA is for jack of all trades, Shotokan far too strict and everything else just  pants really. Trolling at it's 'finest'.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Shotokan schools fails even dedicated students in their black belt tests. So no, it is by no means certain that just because schools charge for belts, that they do it out of a profit interest first and foremost.



1.  You're claiming that Jhoon Rhee profited from passing people who didn't deserve to pass. What are you basing that allegation on? 

2.  You're claiming that such a thing would never happen at a Shotokan school.  What are you basing THAT on?

3.  You're further claiming that _before_ Jhoon Rhee nobody profited from passing people who didn't deserve to pass. What are you basing THAT on?

I'm sorry, but there are so many unsubstantiated claims in your allegation, I can't fathom how you could hope to support the accusation. It seems like you just randomly chose the name of one of the few still-living taekwondo pioneers to throw dirt on.


----------



## MA_Student

Think it's time for this thread to get locked


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's the place.
> 
> It's at the corner of the 34 St and Guadalupes St. Later on it became a "topless bar". Not sure what it is today. Since it's not far from the Austin Mental hospital, many strange guys walked into my school.


Was the topless bar before or after you moved on?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> Now it's next-door to a Brazilian Waxing place, thus proving that BJJ was not the only art to derive from Brazil.


This swerve is far more interesting than the original topic.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Shotokan schools fails even dedicated students in their black belt tests. So no, it is by no means certain that just because schools charge for belts, that they do it out of a profit interest first and foremost.


And I know folks who've been failed on TKD tests, including BB. What's your point?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> 1.  You're claiming that Jhoon Rhee profited from passing people who didn't deserve to pass. What are you basing that allegation on?
> 
> 2.  You're claiming that such a thing would never happen at a Shotokan school.  What are you basing THAT on?
> 
> 3.  You're further claiming that _before_ Jhoon Rhee nobody profited from passing people who didn't deserve to pass. What are you basing THAT on?
> 
> I'm sorry, but there are so many unsubstantiated claims in your allegation, I can't fathom how you could hope to support the accusation. It seems like you just randomly chose the name of one of the few still-living taekwondo pioneers to throw dirt on.



I base it on the fact that the president of my federation hands out belts like candy on Halloween.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I base it on the fact that the president of my federation hands out belts like candy on Halloween.



So....because the president of your federation in Europe hands out belts like candy, you say that that means Jhoon Rhee degraded taekwondo in the U.S. by commercializing it.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> So....because the president of your federation in Europe hands out belts like candy, you say that that means Jhoon Rhee degraded taekwondo in the U.S. by commercializing it.



They have close ties, mind you.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> They have close ties, mind you.



Maybe so, but why are you blaming Jhoon Rhee for what the president of your Federation in Europe does?  Why not blame the president of your Federation?

I mean, Jhoon Rhee was also close (for a time) to General Choi. Maybe you should blame General Choi for your Federation's low standards. No wait, General Choi was close to Nam Tae Hi! Maybe it's Nam Tae Hi's fault. My gawd man, you're right, this conspiracy goes far deeper than I realized!


----------



## MA_Student

TrueJim said:


> Maybe so, but why are you blaming Jhoon Rhee for what the president of your Federation in Europe does?  Why not blame the president of your Federation?
> 
> I mean, Jhoon Rhee was also close (for a time) to General Choi. Maybe you should blame General Choi for your Federation's low standards. No wait, General Choi was close to Nam Tae Hi! Maybe it's Nam Tae Hi's fault. My gawd man, you're right, this conspiracy goes far deeper than I realized!


Nah it's bruce lees fault because him and jhoon Rhee met a few times


----------



## elder999

MA_Student said:


> Nah it's bruce lees fault because him and jhoon Rhee met a few times


Nah, it's Chuck Norris's fault, because he was friends with both of them.


----------



## MA_Student

elder999 said:


> Nah, it's Chuck Norris's fault, because he was friends with both of them.


No it was ed Parkers because he knew all 3 of them


----------



## TrueJim

MA_Student said:


> No it was ed Parkers because he knew all 3 of them



No, it's Muhammad Ali's fault. Rhee coached Ali for a while in '76.


----------



## Dirty Dog

It's Todds fault.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> It's Todds fault.


Isn't it always?


----------



## CB Jones

TrueJim said:


> I don't think there's any reason why people outside the U.S. would have necessarily heard of Rhee. Of course here in the suburbs of D.C. he's a bit of a legend; he now lives a couple towns over from me. He was teaching "Korean Karate" in Texas until General Choi convinced Rhee to call his art "taekwondo", and so Rhee became the first teacher of taekwondo in the U.S. From Austin, Rhee relocated here to D.C. where he opened a successful chain of schools.
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic:
> 
> It sounds like what Axiom is saying is that he thinks U.S. taekwondo is bad, and since Jhoon Rhee is the father of U.S. taekwondo, it's Rhee's fault.



Atlee Chittim trained "Korean Karate" while in the military.   In 1955, Chittim returned  to the US as a brown belt And began teaching "Korean Karate" In San Antonio.  A year later, Chittim sponsored Jhoon Rhee to come to America and began training with Jhoon Rhee.  Chittim was Jhoon Rhees first student in America promoted to black belt.

And the side kick is still a big point of emphasis in that lineage.


So Chittim I guess carries some of the blame as well.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> Was the topless bar before or after you moved on?


That whole building has 2 parts. The left part was Jhoon's school. Later on it became the topless bar. The right part became a Kempo school. When the Kempo school moved out, I took over as my school. When I had my class, I could hear the music next door.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

This is a good clip. It sends out positive energy. I'm glad that I can still stretch on the floor as he does.

I want to try the 100 push up within 1 minute and see if I can still do it when I'm 80. That sound like a good goal.






Why said that old person cannot kick high?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That whole building has 2 parts. The left part was Jhoon's school. Later on it became the topless bar. The right part became a Kempo school. When the Kempo school moved out, I took over as my school. When I had my class, I could hear the music next door.


So, you're saying your school was in a topless bar. Admit it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> So, you're saying your school was in a topless bar. Admit it.


There was still a wall in between. Believe it or not, behind that build was a monastery.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There was still a wall in between. Believe it or not, behind that build was a monastery.


Quite the neighborhood you were in!

How big was the dojo (I forget the Chinese word)?


----------



## Flying Crane

Dirty Dog said:


> It's Todds fault.


Damn Todd, that bastard!


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> It's as if father of American TaeKwondo is a good thing


Hmm, why would founding a martial art in a country be a good thing?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I have already answered that question multiple times. I don't live in the US. It is not a daycare center over here.


----------



## JR 137

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There was still a wall in between. Believe it or not, behind that build was a monastery.


How many peep holes were there in that wall?
Did you guys go next door and practice on the guys who didn't keep their hands off?
Did you bring your students next door to research flexibility techniques?
How many times did students miss class, yet their car was parked right out front?

I could keep going, but it's getting late.


----------



## JR 137

Axiom said:


> I have already answered that question multiple times. I don't live in the US. It is not a daycare center over here.


How many TKD schools, "daycare" or otherwise, have you trained in in the US?  How many in whatever country you're in?


----------



## elder999

Dirty Dog said:


> It's Todds fault.



*It's Lisa's fault!!!!!!!!*
Always wanted to say that!!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> Quite the neighborhood you were in!
> 
> How big was the dojo (I forget the Chinese word)?


Jhoon's side was big. It was a Bowling alley. My side was not very big. May be 1500 sq ft. I only paid $275 per month back in 1973.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

JR 137 said:


> How many peep holes were there in that wall?
> Did you guys go next door and practice on the guys who didn't keep their hands off?
> Did you bring your students next door to research flexibility techniques?
> How many times did students miss class, yet their car was parked right out front?
> 
> I could keep going, but it's getting late.


When it was still a Kempo school, one night I dropped by before I took it over, one assistant instructor asked all the students to stay in horse stance. He then went next door to have a drink. That Kempo school used the old students teach new students policy.


----------



## Xue Sheng

elder999 said:


> *It's Lisa's fault!!!!!!!!*
> Always wanted to say that!!



Wasn't there even a smilie for that back in the MT ancient time.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Maybe so, but why are you blaming Jhoon Rhee for what the president of your Federation in Europe does?  Why not blame the president of your Federation?



Moving the Goalposts You asked me how I know that TKD (at least my lineage) has turned a martial art into an operating business first and foremost. Now you want to start a blaming game.

As for General Choi views on comercialization: 07:22 
_
"When one teaches TaeKwondo, one should not think about money." Even though I have taught a number of disciples in my life time, I have never recieved money"  

"If I recieve money from teaching at a dojang, it is not a true dojang, it's just a *business*."

"If you want to become a great master, do not ask for money more than what you need for survival"






_


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Moving the Goalposts You asked me how I know that TKD (at least my lineage) has turned a martial art into an operating business first and foremost.



No sir. I asked you what you meant when you said that Jhoon Rhee had degraded U.S. taekwondo by "commercializing" it.

You answered by explaining that the president of your federation gives away belts like candy.

I responded by saying: Why blame Jhoon Rhee for what the president of your federation does?

And now you're responded by pretending that the original question was different.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> As for General Choi views on comercialization: 07:22
> _
> "When one teaches TaeKwondo, one should not think about money." Even though I have taught a number of disciples in my life time, I have never recieved money"
> 
> "If I recieve money from teaching at a dojang, it is not a true dojang, it's just a *business*."
> 
> "If you want to become a great master, do not ask for money more than what you need for survival"_



The expenses associated with running a typical dojang include:

Monthly facility lease
Local permits and licenses
Insurance
Utilities (heat, water, electric, etc.) 
Training equipment and training supplies
Office and janitorial supplies
Taxes
Wages for instructors and staff, including related payroll expenses such as taxes and insurance
If the school has its own vehicles, then also vehicle costs: loan payments, taxes, insurance, registration
After paying those dojang costs, the head of the school then needs to pay his own personal expenses:

Mortgage payments on the home
Insurance
Utilities
Taxes
Groceries
Personal vehicle costs
And of course after paying for all of that, the head of the school had better be putting away some money for:

Your children's college fund
Your retirement

General Choi said you should not ask for more money than what you need for survival. The above list is the costs that are needed for "survival".


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> No sir. I asked you what you meant when you said that Jhoon Rhee had degraded U.S. taekwondo by "commercializing" it.
> 
> You answered by explaining that the president of your federation gives away belts like candy.
> 
> I responded by saying: Why blame Jhoon Rhee for what the president of your federation does?
> 
> And now you're responded by pretending that the original question was different.



I have answered what commercializing means and how I know it's in effect.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> The expenses associated with running a typical dojang include:
> 
> Monthly facility lease
> Local permits and licenses
> Insurance
> Utilities (heat, water, electric, etc.)
> Training equipment and training supplies
> Office and janitorial supplies
> Taxes
> Wages for instructors and staff, including related payroll expenses such as taxes and insurance
> If the school has its own vehicles, then also vehicle costs: loan payments, taxes, insurance, registration
> After paying those dojang costs, the head of the school then needs to pay his own personal expenses:
> 
> Mortgage payments on the home
> Insurance
> Utilities
> Taxes
> Groceries
> Personal vehicle costs
> And of course after paying for all of that, the head of the school had better be putting away some money for:
> 
> Your children's college fund
> Your retirement
> 
> General Choi said you should not ask for more money than what you need for survival. The above list is the costs that are needed for "survival".



 And your point is?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> "When one teaches TaeKwondo, one should not think about money." Even though I have taught a number of disciples in my life time, I have never recieved money"
> 
> "If I recieve money from teaching at a dojang, it is not a true dojang, it's just a *business*."


 Any of the instructors in my school would teach for free if it were possible but unfortunately there's this thing called 'reality'.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Any of the instructors in my school would teach for free if it were possible but unfortunately there's this thing called 'reality'.



There's a distinction between making a living and a profitable business.


----------



## Axiom

BTW, another reason I still train TaeKwonDo as a red belt is that I'm a retro lover. I love training in a dojang stuck in the 80s. I love music, culture, and martial arts of the 80s.


----------



## Xue Sheng

The fact that this hamster wheel of a train wreck post is on its 24th page is absolutely mind boggling to me....I have one last thing to say...


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Any of the instructors in my school would teach for free if it were possible but unfortunately there's this thing called 'reality'.



What is the term used for equal money spent as earned? Cutting even? Anway, whatever that's called in English, is what General Choi was referring to. Anybody who takes in more than they used in is running a business. And I guarantee the TKD instructors you so proudly speak of make profits.


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> There's a distinction between making a living and a profitable business.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> And I guarantee the TKD instructors you so proudly speak of make profits.


And where do you think the majority of those profits go? Back into the school, fuel for the car, advertising, belts, boards for breaking, training equipment etc.


----------



## Axiom

CB Jones said:


>



Deep, huh?


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> And where do you think the majority of those profits go? Back into the school, fuel for the car, advertising, belts, boards for breaking, training equipment etc.



I guess you didn't get what I meant by profit. Clue: wallet.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I have answered what commercializing means and how I know it's in effect.



No sir. I did not ask what _commercializing_ means. I asked: What do you mean when you say that Jhoon Rhee degraded taekwondo in the U.S. by commercializing it. 

You responded by saying that the president of your federation in Eastern Europe hands out black belts like candy.

When I asked what one thing has to do with the other, you subsequently explained that you blame Jhoon Rhee for the behavior of your president. 

Then I asked: wouldn't it make more sense to blame the president of your federation for his own behavior? 

Then you said that I was playing the blame game, and misquoted my original question.

Then I corrected you. 

*Let's go back to the pertinent question:* Why are you blaming Jhoon Rhee in the United States for the actions of a mature adult who's running his own federation in Eastern Europe?


----------



## Axiom

And yes, my fellow students have travelled abroad to the United States and visited TaeKwonDo dojangs that turned out to be daycare centers. the instructors spoke openly about it, as if it was a good thing. I want to throw up  when I hear that.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> What is the term used for equal money spent as earned? Cutting even? Anway, whatever that's called in English, is what General Choi was referring to. Anybody who takes in more than they used in is running a business. And I guarantee the TKD instructors you so proudly speak of make profits.


Yeah and why shouldn't they make money....they're giving up their time and their own money to teach people and mostly all have another job so they work all day then go out at night and teach so damm right they should make a profit


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> What is the term used for equal money spent as earned? Cutting even? Anway, whatever that's called in English, is what General Choi was referring to. Anybody who takes in more than they used in is running a business. And I guarantee the TKD instructors you so proudly speak of make profits.



Yes sir, "breaking even" is how we say it.

As has been previously pointed out, profits invariably go into either:

Re-investment in the school (for example, to buy new equipment when the old equipment gets too old), or
Or personal savings for retirement ,or for your children's college fund
In the U.S., the heads of taekwondo schools aren't driving around in Ferraris and living in mansions. The average salary for a martial arts instructor in the U.S. is approximately the same as the average U.S. salary overall. Nobody goes into this business to get rich.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Yes sir, "breaking even" is how we say it.
> 
> As has been previously pointed out, profits invariably go into either:
> 
> Re-investment in the school (for example, to buy new equipment when the old equipment gets too old), or
> Or personal savings for retirement ,or for your children's college fund
> In the U.S., the heads of taekwondo schools aren't driving around in Ferraris and living in mansions. The average salary for a martial arts instructor in the U.S. is approximately the same as the average U.S. salary overall. Nobody goes into this business to get rich.



Given the amount of kids running around in, I know they make plenty of profit. Kids from the age of 6 "train" TaeKwonDo in my school. They barely know where they are and do other things when the instructor isn't looking.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> And yes, my fellow students have travelled abroad to the United States and visited TaeKwonDo dojangs that turned out to be daycare centers. the instructors spoke openly about it, as if it was a good thing. *I want to throw up  when I hear that.*



We are dismayed to learn of your nausea sir. On behalf of the U.S. overall, we fervently hope that the shoddy quality of your martial arts instruction causes you no further distress. 

In the U.S., we commonly believe that engaging children in sports is a good thing, whether the sport is futball, basketball, or martial arts. It is not uncommon to enroll children in summer camps and after-school programs where they practice these sports. Candidly, the quality of the instruction is uneven: some are very good, some not so much. 'Arguably, this is true for all types of instruction everywhere, from kinder-care to university.

In any case, please be assured sir that the uneven quality of our martial arts instruction is no reason for you to feel physical distress! Please take care of your health, and do not make yourself overly anxious about the quality of our taekwondo instruction -- your health is important sir.


----------



## Martial D

If this isn't a parody thread, it ought to be. So many good laughs.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Yeah and why shouldn't they make money....they're giving up their time and their own money to teach people and mostly all have another job so they work all day then go out at night and teach so damm right they should make a profit



It erodes the purity of the art.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> It erodes the purity of the art.


All martial arts would be dead today if the instructors didnt charge. Because frankly barley anyone is going to pay out hundreds of their own money on rent, electricity, supplies or any of that stuff without making anything back.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Given the amount of kids running around in, *I know they make plenty of profit*.



My heart is filled with sincerest joy to learn that your master's taekwondo school is profitable sir! 

May I ask: how much profit does your master make? You say "plenty" but I would be curious to gain a better understanding of what you mean by "plenty". Does your master live in a luxurious mansion? Does he have his own private jet?  

Could you possibly give us some _quantitative_ estimate of what you mean by "plenty"?  Please feel free to respond in your own currency, as my proficiency with Google currency calculations is the stuff of legend.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> It erodes the purity of the art.



Yes sir, I agree!  My own master and I discuss this all the time:


*Me:  *"Master!  I have learned that some schools charge for taekwondo instruction.  Have you ever heard of such a thing?"

*Him:* "Ahhh, grasshopper. I feared this day would come. Please, sit. Share some hot tea with me."

<My master never eats. His only sustenance is hot green tea and the joy of teaching. I pour the tea and sit on the discarded burlap sacks that we use as chairs.>

*Him: *"Yes grasshopper, it is true. Some schools charge for taekwondo instruction."

<My master's body shudders as he utters these fateful words. For myself, I can feel only a cold chill in my spine, as if somebody has just crossed my grave.>

*Me: *"But sir, what about the purity of the art?"

<My master's voice rises with a sense of righteous outage.>

*Him:* "These other supposed masters...these visigoths...these gutternipes! They care only for paying the rent and buying food. They have no concern for the purity of the art!"

<My master's voice falls into a hushed whisper, as if telling me a deepest, darkest secret. What will he say? I wonder, will he finally tell me now the secret of the _Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?_ But no, after a long pause, he finally speaks...>

*Him: *"It is said that at some of these schools, they even teach taekwondo...._to children_."

<The world falls away from me as my heart stops beating. My head is spinning as my sense of reality shatters like my enemy's sternum in the onslaught of my fearsome roundhouse. Shocked, I gasp...>

*Me: *"No sir! This cannot be! How did this come to pass! Who is to blame for this foulest of evils!"

<My master bows his head in weary dismay. He says the name slowly, one word at a time.>

*Him:* "Jhoon. Goo. Rhee."

From that moment on, I launched myself on a righteous crusade. I have dedicated my life to finding and destroying JHOON...GOO...RHEE!!!!!


So you see, Axiom, you and I are entirely on the same page here.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Jhoon's side was big. It was a Bowling alley. My side was not very big. May be 1500 sq ft. I only paid $275 per month back in 1973.


Sounds like the side you were on was about the same as the first NGA dojo I trained in. It was a duplex, too, though the other side was actually smaller (the dojo moved there briefly, before moving to a new building). Nothing so interesting as a topless (or topful, for that matter) bar next door - was a styling salon, IIRC. Behind that building was not a monastery, but a housing project.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Now you want to start a blaming game.


Actually, you were the one who started ascribing blame - without any real evidence to support even what you're blaming for, much less who is responsible.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> "When one teaches TaeKwondo, one should not think about money." Even though I have taught a number of disciples in my life time, I have never recieved money"
> 
> "If I recieve money from teaching at a dojang, it is not a true dojang, it's just a *business*."


Bollux, I don't care who said it. There is nothing wrong with asking for money for delivering a product or service. I don't know where this idea originally came from. Overcharging for it - or underdelivering against your promises - is a bad thing. Getting paid for what you do is not (and that's from someone who makes no money from teaching).



> "If you want to become a great master, do not ask for money more than what you need for survival"


I still disagree with this - it somehow presupposes that mastery of an art is somehow linked to poverty. It is also at odds with the previous two statements, since it clearly suggests it's okay to ask for enough to survive.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I have answered what commercializing means and how I know it's in effect.


You answered that it is asking for money for teaching (paraphrased). You failed to show how that started with Rhee. You failed to show how that was actually bad. If you mean something beyond that definition you posted, you've failed to show any evidence that such exists. (Actually, you failed to show evidence even of anything that supports that definition, but that wouldn't be necessary, since we all know folks who teach TKD and receive fees.)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> And your point is?


That's a response to a quote you posted. What was the point of the quote?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> There's a distinction between making a living and a profitable business.


If a business has no profit, there is no income for the owner.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> What is the term used for equal money spent as earned? Cutting even? Anway, whatever that's called in English, is what General Choi was referring to. Anybody who takes in more than they used in is running a business. And I guarantee the TKD instructors you so proudly speak of make profits.


Again, if they don't, they're not making an income. "Profit" is simply the revenue in excess of the business expenses. If a program makes no more income than the expenses it has (like mine), there is no income for the owner (like me). "Breaking even" is okay for a hobby. One cannot make a living on breaking even.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

RTKDCMB said:


> And where do you think the majority of those profits go? Back into the school, fuel for the car, advertising, belts, boards for breaking, training equipment etc.


Actually, the money that goes to the school, boards, equipment, would be expenses, so not even profits.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I guess you didn't get what I meant by profit. Clue: wallet.


I guess you don't know what profit is: _a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something._.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Given the amount of kids running around in, I know they make plenty of profit. Kids from the age of 6 "train" TaeKwonDo in my school. They barely know where they are and do other things when the instructor isn't looking.


That doesn't prove excessive profit, nor that there's anything wrong. Starting kids very early isn't going to (normally) be rigorous TKD training, any more than soccer/football was when I started at 7. It's something to keep kids active and occupied in a social setting. That's good for the kids, probably good for the parents.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> It erodes the purity of the art.


So, starving instructors are better than those who eat? Instructors who are impoverished at retirement are better than those who have a comfortable life?

I've seen instruction that was for free that was absolute tripe. I've seen instruction for free that was quite good. I've seen costly instruction that was absolute tripe. I've seen costly instruction that was quite good. The instructor matters more than his salary. That is true in martial arts, corporate training, and everywhere in between.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> my proficiency with Google currency calculations is the stuff of legend.


It is you - you are the one!!


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> It erodes the purity of the art.


Well there's that reality thing again.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> It erodes the purity of the art.


So does slagging off your instructor, art, and betters online.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Given the amount of kids running around in, I know they make plenty of profit. Kids from the age of 6 "train" TaeKwonDo in my school. They barely know where they are and do other things when the instructor isn't looking.


When you are successfully running a highly disciplined kid's class and post video of it here, your comment may have some credibility. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> And yes, my fellow students have travelled abroad to the United States and visited TaeKwonDo dojangs that turned out to be daycare centers. the instructors spoke openly about it, as if it was a good thing. I want to throw up  when I hear that.


When you are successfully running your not-for-profit dojang, and post evidence of it here, your comment may have some credibility. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I guess you didn't get what I meant by profit. Clue: wallet.


When you are successfully managing to live from a job that pays nothing, your comment may have some credibility. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> BTW, another reason I still train TaeKwonDo as a red belt is that I'm a retro lover. I love training in a dojang stuck in the 80s. I love music, culture, and martial arts of the 80s.


Then surely capitalism is something you should understand. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> There's a distinction between making a living and a profitable business.


When you are making a living from your successful business, and post evidence of it here, your comment may have some credibility. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Post your idea of a five year business plan - show me how this model works. I am intrigued. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## TrueJim

Gnarlie said:


> Post your idea of a five year business plan - show me how this model works. I am intrigued.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Bollux, I don't care who said it. There is nothing wrong with asking for money for delivering a product or service. I don't know where this idea originally came from. Overcharging for it - or underdelivering against your promises - is a bad thing. Getting paid for what you do is not (and that's from someone who makes no money from teaching).
> 
> 
> I still disagree with this - it somehow presupposes that mastery of an art is somehow linked to poverty. It is also at odds with the previous two statements, since it clearly suggests it's okay to ask for enough to survive.



I guess because Choi didn't need the money from his pupils to survive, he did not accept any. This is a perfectly consistent statement.  I think General Choi had a real budo spirit in this regard.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I guess because Choi didn't need the money from his pupils to survive, he did not accept any. This is a perfectly consistent statement.  I think General Choi had a real budo spirit in this regard.


And maybe state backing or a private fortune. Money has to come from somewhere. How did he fund his events / travel / publishing etc? 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I guess because Choi didn't need the money from his pupils to survive, he did not accept any. This is a perfectly consistent statement.  I think General Choi had a real budo spirit in this regard.


If by that you mean he had other income, it's pretty easy to say you shouldn't take money if you don't need any. That has nothing to do with budo.


----------



## Gnarlie

gpseymour said:


> If by that you mean he had other income, it's pretty easy to say you shouldn't take money if you don't need any. That has nothing to do with budo.


The guy travelled the world 2 thirds of each year when he was pushing the ITF. Where did that money come from. He doesn't say he never took money. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> If by that you mean he had other income, it's pretty easy to say you shouldn't take money if you don't need any.



Pretty easy if you are assuming his income was conciderable, which you don't know anything about. All accounts point to Choi living a very simple life to the time he died and that the psychological traumas under occupation affected his eating patterns.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Pretty easy if you are assuming his income was conciderable, which you don't know anything about. All accounts point to Choi living a very simple life to the time he died and that the psychological traumas under occupation affected his eating patterns.


Travelling the world 250 days of the year is neither simple nor cheap. All accounts. Pfft. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

"I go around and tell masters that they must not force the disciples to do something the masters do not like to do. If it is necessary to ask a disciple to do something, suppose for example you want to renovate your a house, and the disciple is the only person who can do the work, then pay him. Nothing is free. Even though I have tought a great number of disciples in my lifetime, I never wanted to receive any money from that – I swear by Heaven. Therefoe I can call them disciples. If I receive money from teaching at a dojang, it is not a true dojang, it is just a business like any other. If you want to become a great master, and perpetruate your name, do not ask for money more that you need for survival. Sometimes I say the masters that when a bird builds a nest, it does not need the whole tree, it only needs a branch, where a small nest can be built."

There's the quote in context. He says nothing about not taking money, only about not wanting to. 



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Pretty easy if you are assuming his income was conciderable, which you don't know anything about. All accounts point to Choi living a very simple life to the time he died and that the psychological traumas under occupation affected his eating patterns.


He still had to have income from somewhere. That's the point.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Pretty easy if you are assuming his income was conciderable, which you don't know anything about.



Neither do you, but evidence (the fact that he was able to travel so much for one factor) points to a significant source of cash, whether it be from TKD or otherwise.

It is difficult for a poor person to refer to the sky as their home. Which he did. 



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Time to change the subject again, no? 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> He still had to have income from somewhere. That's the point.



You only have a point if Choi was rich and wouldn't notice any difference if the students payed him or not. Choi was to the best of my knowledge not rich and would have enjoyed the money.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> You only have a point if Choi was rich and wouldn't notice any difference if the students payed him or not. Choi was to the best of my knowledge not rich and would have enjoyed the money.


Nothing in my statement assumes he was rich. It only assumes he had enough money for what he wanted to do. In his case, that meant extensive travel to other countries. Whether that money was his or someone else's is irrelevant - he had all he needed.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Nothing in my statement assumes he was rich. It only assumes he had enough money for what he wanted to do. In his case, that meant extensive travel to other countries. Whether that money was his or someone else's is irrelevant - he had all he needed.



Many people, especially in the United States, would have exploited the situation as the founder of the martial art and charged for private lessons.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Many people, especially in the United States, would have exploited the situation as the founder of the martial art and charged for private lessons.


Many probably would. And what's your point?


----------



## Gnarlie

Some interesting points here from the late GM Al Cole 9th Dan, a former contributor to this site and a person known for tracking down the pioneers of our art and obtaining what information he could first hand. That money had to come from somewhere....

Taekwondo - Revolution

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> It erodes the purity of the art.


How? If I show you a technique, what does it matter if I did it for free or for 1 million dollars? It's the same technique either way. 

Would it work better if I had less money in my savings than if I had more? Do elaborate.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> You only have a point if Choi was rich...



Sir, are you assuming that Jhoon Rhee became rich via taekwondo? 

I have never met Grandmaster Rhee, but I know people who know him. I've had his home pointed-out to me as we've driven past. Grandmaster Rhee lives in a modest condo in the suburbs of DC. The school he started is now run by his son. Being in his mid-80s now, Grandmaster Rhee himself is long-ago retired. 

Regardless of what outrageous fees the president of your federation in Eastern Europe is charging for handing-out belts like candy, that money has not been going to Jhoon Rhee in the USA.  As one of the early pioneers of taekwondo, Grandmaster Rhee lived a life of service to the martial arts, and despite your ill-conceived preconceptions, doing so did not make Rhee wealthy, unless you count as riches the gratitude he received from generations of devoted students. 

If you count General Choi as an ideal for how a taekwondo life should be lived, then your ire should not be targeted at Grandmaster Rhee, who was -- when all is said and done -- cut from much the same cloth.

I am sorry you are unhappy with your taekwondo education; I am sorry you are unhappy with the president of your federation. But those are not good reasons to slander people who have never done you any harm, and indeed who have done the world a lot of good.


----------



## JR 137

Why put it in my own words when someone else has said it so much more articulately...


----------



## TrueJim

gpseymour said:


> If by that you mean he had other income, it's pretty easy to say you shouldn't take money if you don't need any.



When he established his kwan, *General* Choi was paid in Monopoly money, as was the tradition at that time for officers in the South Korean military. Things improved considerably for Choi during his development of the Chang Hon teul -- at that time, South Korean *Ambassadors* to Malaysia were paid in 10%-off coupons for Outback Steak House. 

#armyofficer #governmentemployee #bloominonion


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Many people, especially in the United States, would have exploited the situation as the founder of the martial art and charged for private lessons.



Feel free to spend your life in sackcloth and ashes. I hope the loud exhaust from my Corvette doesn't interfere with your ability to sleep under the bridge.


----------



## JR 137

Dirty Dog said:


> Feel free to spend your life in sackcloth and ashes. I hope the loud exhaust from my Corvette doesn't interfere with your ability to sleep under the bridge.


Yeah, but you made your millions as an EMT/Paramedic/I don't know exactly which, not as a TKD McDojo master


----------



## TrueJim

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but you made your millions as an EMT/Paramedic/I don't know exactly which, not as a TKD McDojo master



I was reminded of this earlier today: I had this conversation with a person about five years ago - they were saying that physicians should work for free. 

"But how would they pay their bills?"

     "Look, those people went into that profession to save lives. If they really cared about saving people's lives they wouldn't be asking for money to do it."

"But like...where would they live?"

     "They could live in the hospitals."

"Wouldn't hospitals have to charge you more then?"

     "No, hospitals shouldn't charge money either."

Clearly, I was dealing with a wily genius.


----------



## Dirty Dog

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but you made your millions as an EMT/Paramedic/I don't know exactly which, not as a TKD McDojo master



I'm an ER nurse. I've actually never made a dime for teaching TKD. But I'm not so stupid that I think there's anything inherently wrong with making a living. Even a comfortable one. Thinking that sort of nonsense is usually the prerogative of those still living in their parents basement.


----------



## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> Thinking that sort of nonsense is usually the prerogative of those still living in their parents basement.



It has been my conjecture for a couple of days now that the real reason Axiom doesn't change taekwondo schools is because the school he's in now is the only school his parents are willing to pay for.


----------



## MA_Student

Can't believe this is still going....it became a train wreck after one page


----------



## JR 137

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm an ER nurse. I've actually never made a dime for teaching TKD. But I'm not so stupid that I think there's anything inherently wrong with making a living. Even a comfortable one. Thinking that sort of nonsense is usually the prerogative of those still living in their parents basement.


I'm all for everyone making a ton of money in an honest way.  Doesn't matter what they're doing, so long as it's legal and they're not putting me in the poorhouse.  MA teachers included.


----------



## JR 137

MA_Student said:


> Can't believe this is still going....it became a train wreck after one page


AFTER page 1?  That would imply the thread had some validity to it at one point.  Page 1, including the original post was a train wreck too.  Go back and read it


----------



## JR 137

TrueJim said:


> It has been my conjecture for a couple of days now that the real reason Axiom doesn't change taekwondo schools is because the school he's in now is the only school his parents are willing to pay for.


Why can't I rate that as funny, like, and agree all at the same time?

Or maybe he still has 10 years left on his McDojo contract.  Most likely both.


----------



## CB Jones

MA_Student said:


> Can't believe this is still going....it became a train wreck after one page



because who doesn't like  watching a good train wreck


----------



## Tez3

Has the OP commented on any other threads other than his own? Just curious to see whether he actually wants to have a conversation with people or just lecture and harangue those he thinks need edumacating.


----------



## Gnarlie

Hands up if you have actually learned anything from this thread; hands down if it wasn't from the OP...

Tumbleweed GIFs - Find & Share on GIPHY

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> Has the OP commented on any other threads other than his own? Just curious to see whether he actually wants to have a conversation with people or just lecture and harangue those he thinks need edumacating.


Please don't give him any ideas.  We can't stop his craziness; we can only hope to contain it


----------



## Gnarlie

JR 137 said:


> Please don't give him any ideas.  We can't stop his craziness; we can only hope to contain it


I have a plan... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## TrueJim

Gnarlie said:


> Hands up if you have actually learned anything from this thread; hands down if it wasn't from the OP...



In its heyday, the Jhoon Rhee style of taekwondo was popular in the mid-Atlantic states of the US. I had heard that it had also gained some inroads in Eastern Europe. 

Here in the U.S. the style seems to have all but died-out. I know of 3 remaining schools here in Virginia, and one in Texas. From this thread I learned that the Jhoon Rhee style of taekwondo is still alive in Eastern Europe. 

I also learned that if I ever start my own dojang, placing it next to a strip club will make it more memorable.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Please don't give him any ideas.  We can't stop his craziness; we can only hope to contain it



Lol, I'm busy this weekend so won't be online so do enjoy yourselves!

Best wishes to you all. Eat, (something sweet) drink and be merry!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> Feel free to spend your life in sackcloth and ashes. I hope the loud exhaust from my Corvette doesn't interfere with your ability to sleep under the bridge.


So much said in so few words. Thanks, DD!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> I also learned that if I ever start my own dojang, placing it next to a strip club will make it more memorable.


That, sir, is useful information.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> Unless they share common traits. Like unrealistic feed back.



But if they share traits why not use the non pedantic example?

The reason is that mockery for some is a sufficient replacement for sound argument. 

An exaggeration conflated with reality leaves a mark in the mind that the subject is equally rediculous, when if that were true, there wiuld be no need of the exaggeration.


----------



## RTKDCMB

JR 137 said:


> Why put it in my own words when someone else has said it so much more articulately...


Damn, beat me to it.


----------



## Axiom

Martial D said:


> How? If I show you a technique, what does it matter if I did it for free or for 1 million dollars? It's the same technique either way.
> 
> Would it work better if I had less money in my savings than if I had more? Do elaborate.



Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.


----------



## Axiom

,


----------



## DaveB

TrueJim said:


> I was reminded of this earlier today: I had this conversation with a person about five years ago - they were saying that physicians should work for free.
> 
> "But how would they pay their bills?"
> 
> "Look, those people went into that profession to save lives. If they really cared about saving people's lives they wouldn't be asking for money to do it."
> 
> "But like...where would they live?"
> 
> "They could live in the hospitals."
> 
> "Wouldn't hospitals have to charge you more then?"
> 
> "No, hospitals shouldn't charge money either."
> 
> Clearly, I was dealing with a wily genius.



I believe you Americans call it "single payer" health care. Although the doctors havent gotten homes in our version for some decades.

The key is simple, dont let your right wing politicians screw it up... like we have.


----------



## DaveB

Posted in error


----------



## elder999

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.



erm...greed generates money. Money generates power. 

just sayin'......


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.


Except that's not actually true. You're quoting folk wisdom, which often has problems when placed under scrutiny of evidence. Greed doesn't require money, unless you define greed as "wanting more money". Power doesn't generate corruption, it only makes it more possible. Greed doesn't really generate power in any significant way, though money does in many cases.


----------



## elder999

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.



erm...greed generates money. Money generates power. 

just sayin'......


----------



## elder999

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.



erm...greed generates money. Money generates power. 

just sayin'......


----------



## Axiom

elder999 said:


> erm...greed generates money. Money generates power.
> 
> just sayin'......



Nope. Greed needs to be nurtured from somewhere. People who have money tend to become even more greedy than those that don't


----------



## Axiom

elder999 said:


> erm...greed generates money. Money generates power.
> 
> just sayin'......



Nope. Greed needs to be nurtured from somewhere. People who have money tend to become even greedy than those that don't


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.


For some reason that post reminds me of this


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.


Ok there Yoda, but you didn't answer the question.


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.


Ok there Yoda, but you didn't answer the question.


----------



## Axiom

And greed causes technically unqualified students to become black belt, then instructors, in turn teaching degraded forms of "TaeKwondo" as well as watering down the art and making it more kidfriendly


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> Money generates greed, greed generates power, power generates corruption. Human nature 101.


Ok there Yoda, but you didn't answer the question.


----------



## Axiom

And greed causes technically unqualified students to become black belts, then instructors, and in turn teaching degraded forms of "TaeKwondo" to the new generation consistent of watered down, kidfriendly nonsense


----------



## Axiom

Martial D said:


> Ok there Yoda, but you didn't answer the question.



Read above


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> And greed causes technically unqualified students to become black belt, then instructors, in turn teaching degraded forms of "TaeKwondo" as well as watering down the art and making it more kidfriendly


Are you familiar with the term 'non sequitur'?


----------



## Axiom

Martial D said:


> Are you familiar with the term 'non sequitur'?



You asked me how it affects the techniques being taught. Do you have the short-term memory of a goldfish?


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Except that's not actually true. You're quoting folk wisdom, which often has problems when placed under scrutiny of evidence. Greed doesn't require money, unless you define greed as "wanting more money". Power doesn't generate corruption, it only makes it more possible. Greed doesn't really generate power in any significant way, though money does in many cases.



True. Politicians aren't corrupt at all


----------



## elder999

Axiom said:


> Nope. Greed needs to be nurtured from somewhere. People who have money tend to become even greedy than those that don't


And you know this how?


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> You asked me how it affects the techniques being taught. Do you have the short-term memory of a goldfish?


Well, I see there will be no meaningful discussion coming from you. Have fun trolling.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> True. Politicians aren't corrupt at all



I think you're missing his point. He's saying poor people are often greedy too. Poor people, rich people, anybody is equally likely to be greedy. 

Also, for the record, SPEED generates power. Every taekwondoin knows this. Speed. And coal.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> True. Politicians aren't corrupt at all



I think you're missing his point. He's saying poor people are often greedy too. Poor people, rich people, anybody is equally likely to be greedy. 

Also, for the record, SPEED generates power. Every taekwondoin knows this. Speed. And coal.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> I think you're missing his point. He's saying poor people are often greedy too. Poor people, rich people, anybody is equally likely to be greedy.



I strongly disagree


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I strongly disagree



But it's true! Burning coal in a furnace is used to generate steam, which drives a turbine, which drives a generator, which generates power.  Burning money would be a _terribly_ inefficient way to generate power.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Nope. Greed needs to be nurtured from somewhere. People who have money tend to become even more greedy than those that don't


What is your evidence of that statement?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I strongly disagree


So, provide some support for your statement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> True. Politicians aren't corrupt at all


And what, precisely, has this to do with your statement?

I can show you examples of corrupt shift managers at fast food restaurants.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> And greed causes technically unqualified students to become black belts, then instructors, and in turn teaching degraded forms of "TaeKwondo" to the new generation consistent of watered down, kidfriendly nonsense



You're still making statements without doing two things important to swaying others:

1) Showing some sort of evidence that supports what you are stating as fact.

2) Showing how the effect is pervasive enough to be a significant problem.

I'm not saying your statements aren't true. I'm saying you haven't made any sort of case for them being either true or important to the overall effect you started this thread about.


----------



## TrueJim

gpseymour said:


> And what, precisely, has this to do with your statement?
> 
> I can show you examples of corrupt shift managers at fast food restaurants.



That's actually a piece of Star Wars trivia that most people aren't aware of. Most Sith Lords are actually recruited from the ranks of fast food shift managers. 

#starwars #powercorrupts #curlyfries #axiomisclueless


----------



## Axiom

May I enquire how military combat situations (which some TKD schools supposedly train) is relevant for a civilian citizens taking TKD classes?


----------



## Axiom

May I enquire how military combat situations (which some TKD schools supposedly train) is relevant for a civilian citizens taking TKD classes?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> May I enquire how military combat situations (which some TKD schools supposedly train) is relevant for a civilian citizens taking TKD classes?


May I enquire what that has to do with the fragmented discussion at hand?


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> May I enquire what that has to do with the fragmented discussion at hand?



It was raised in defence of TaeKwondo (potentially) failing in a ring or on the street against the same Muay Thai pro.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> May I enquire how military combat situations (which some TKD schools supposedly train) is relevant for a civilian citizens taking TKD classes?



And while we're at it, could somebody please explain to me how wearing ballet slippers, a loincloth, and a fez is supposed to improve your 360 roundhouse? Because honestly, it seems counter-intuitive to me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> It was raised in defence of TaeKwondo (potentially) failing in a ring or on the street against the same Muay Thai pro.


You didn't quote a post, so I can't see the line of reasoning.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> You didn't quote a post, so I can't see the line of reasoning.


Do you really expect 'reasoning' at this point in the thread? Really?


----------



## TrueJim

gpseymour said:


> You didn't quote a post, so I can't see the line of reasoning.



You're not supposed to. You've fallen into his trap! Save yourself! Turn back while you can!

It's from back when we were making fun Axiom's idea of a "respectful" no-holds-barred street fight where you and another chap agree to fight - but in a _respectful_ way - in a no-holds-barred fight, except with all kinds of rules that Axiom made up to make it respectful, but, you know...no-holds-barred.

Yah, I know. 

Basically Axiom was trying to make the point that if one muay thai fighter won against some other guy in a cage, that same fighter would probably also win out on the street against the same opponent, as long as the rules weren't that different from, you know: a cage. 

Yah, I know. 

So it was pointed out that what happens in a REAL street fight (grab a tire iron and wallop somebody) is not a lot like what happens in combat (sneak up and stab people in the throat) which is not a lot like what happens in a cage. But people who like cage fights like to pretend that cage fights are realistically representative of real-world violence. Invariably this notion is held by people who've never actually seen real-world violence.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> You're not supposed to. You've fallen into his trap! Save yourself! Turn back while you can!
> 
> It's from back when we were making fun Axiom's idea of a "respectful" no-holds-barred street fight where you and another chap agree to fight - but in a _respectful_ way - in a no-holds-barred fight, except with all kinds of rules that Axiom made up to make it respectful, but, you know...no-holds-barred.
> 
> Yah, I know.
> 
> Basically Axiom was trying to make the point that if one muay thai fighter won against some other guy in a cage, that same fighter would probably also win out on the street against the same opponent, as long as the rules weren't that different from, you know: a cage.
> 
> Yah, I know.
> 
> So it was pointed out that what happens in a REAL street fight (grab a tire iron and wallop somebody) is not a lot like what happens in combat (sneak up and stab people in the throat) which is not a lot like what happens in a cage. But people who like cage fights like to pretend that cage fights are realistically representative of real-world violence. Invariably this notion is held by people who've never actually seen real-world violence.



You referenced military combat defences and I never got around to ask you why on earth any civilian citizen with no ambitions to join the military would have any use for that stuff.


----------



## Axiom

Show me an equivalent comment to this about Muay Thai:
_
"As someone who has done taekwondo throughout my teen years (5+), and spent a few years teaching, I can tell you it is a fuckin joke. Most schools, even if they call themselves traditional, are total garbage and do not teach adequate self defense. Would not recommend unless you are just doing it for sport/fun and doing olympic style.

I got to a pretty advanced level at 2nd dan- could do 540 hook kicks and more flashy kicks, and could also beat up on other kids in sparring that somehow had a 4th degree belt. I do not believe this has much real life application. The only chance in a street fight that I would say I have is by unsuspecting head kick or spinning back kick by total surprise- and after the first attempt it's basically useless."_


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> And greed causes technically unqualified students to become black belt, then instructors, in turn teaching degraded forms of "TaeKwondo" as well as watering down the art and making it more kidfriendly


Really?

Can we see an example of this Deadly proto-tkd?


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> You referenced military combat defences and I never got around to ask you why on earth any civilian citizen with no ambitions to join the military would have any use for that stuff.



1. You claimed, with little understanding, that a cage fight is representative of real-world violence. 

2. I pointed-out that real-world violence is nothing like a cage fight. I used as my examples: (a) military combat, and (b) an attack by gang members on the street. 

3. Unable to refute my argument, you changed the subject, just as you've been doing all along, every time you start to lose the debate.

4. In fact, you're still doing it now, because...

5. ...the topic we're discussing now is: which generates more power -- money, or coal-fired power-plants?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> 1. You claimed, with little understanding, that a cage fight is representative of real-world violence.
> 
> 2. I pointed-out that real-world violence is nothing like a cage fight. I used as my examples: (a) military combat, and (b) an attack by gang members on the street.
> 
> 3. Unable to refute my argument, you changed the subject, just as you've been doing all along, every time you start to lose the debate.
> 
> 4. In fact, you're still doing it now, because...
> 
> 5. ...the topic we're discussing now is: which generates more power -- money, or coal-fired power-plants?



Not once did I mention a cage fight, it was a ring. That TKD breaks down in MMA  goes without saying. No use putting up a thread about it.


----------



## Axiom

,


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> 1. You claimed, with little understanding, that a cage fight is representative of real-world violence.
> 
> 2. I pointed-out that real-world violence is nothing like a cage fight. I used as my examples: (a) military combat, and (b) an attack by gang members on the street.
> 
> 3. Unable to refute my argument, you changed the subject, just as you've been doing all along, every time you start to lose the debate.
> 
> 4. In fact, you're still doing it now, because...
> 
> 5. ...the topic we're discussing now is: which generates more power -- money, or coal-fired power-plants?



Never once did a mention a cage fight, it was a ring. That TKD breaks down in MMA  goes without saying. No use putting up a thread about it.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Never once did a mention a cage fight, it was a ring. That TKD breaks down in MMA  goes without saying. No use putting up a thread about it.



How much profit does your instructor make?  You never responded to that question.  You said he makes "plenty" but can you give us some idea of what that means? 

Like, what kind of car does he drive? Is it expensive? How about his home -- is it a mansion? 

See, I can keep changing the topic too. It's fun!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Show me an equivalent comment to this about Muay Thai:
> _
> "As someone who has done taekwondo throughout my teen years (5+), and spent a few years teaching, I can tell you it is a fuckin joke. Most schools, even if they call themselves traditional, are total garbage and do not teach adequate self defense. Would not recommend unless you are just doing it for sport/fun and doing olympic style.
> 
> I got to a pretty advanced level at 2nd dan- could do 540 hook kicks and more flashy kicks, and could also beat up on other kids in sparring that somehow had a 4th degree belt. I do not believe this has much real life application. The only chance in a street fight that I would say I have is by unsuspecting head kick or spinning back kick by total surprise- and after the first attempt it's basically useless."_


Why do we need to? What would the point be?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> How much profit does your instructor make?



A 5th degree black belt costs around 400 US dollars


----------



## Axiom

,


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> Show me an equivalent comment to this about Muay Thai:
> _
> "As someone who has done taekwondo throughout my teen years (5+), and spent a few years teaching, I can tell you it is a fuckin joke. Most schools, even if they call themselves traditional, are total garbage and do not teach adequate self defense. Would not recommend unless you are just doing it for sport/fun and doing olympic style.
> 
> I got to a pretty advanced level at 2nd dan- could do 540 hook kicks and more flashy kicks, and could also beat up on other kids in sparring that somehow had a 4th degree belt. I do not believe this has much real life application. The only chance in a street fight that I would say I have is by unsuspecting head kick or spinning back kick by total surprise- and after the first attempt it's basically useless."_


You realise that I and others have addressed this kind of thing repeatedly and you have just completely ignored it.

Good Lord, why am I still talking to him.
Why are any of us still talking to Axiom about anything???


----------



## Axiom

DaveB said:


> You realise that I and others have addressed this kind of thing repeatedly and you have just completely ignored it.
> 
> Good Lord, why am I still talking to him.
> Why are any of us still talking to Axiom about anything???



No you havent. There was one dude complaining, with zero generated discussion


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> A 5th degree black belt costs around 400 US dollars



That's fairly typical. 

What kind of car does he drive? Maserati? Ferrari? Lamborghini?


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> That's fairly typical.
> 
> What kind of car does he drive? Maserati? Ferrari? Lamborghini?



I haven't checked. But I do know that he opened his own restaurant as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> A 5th degree black belt costs around 400 US dollars


That doesn't answer the question of how much he makes. In fact, as an isolated number like that, it doesn't really tell us if he's profitable, at all.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> No you havent. There was one dude complaining, with zero generated discussion



Yes, I have. 

The last time was in post 347 I think.



DaveB said:


> Because they are sports. Boxers do not go around trying to fight in tkd tournaments and expecting to win.
> 
> The issue that might arise there is one of people being sold a sport while expecting an all conquering martial art. Also training incorrectly for said expectations.
> 
> But when you learn that landing a front kick and drilling front kick technique are not the same thing you can see how an art can be applied to the situation you want just by altering the training.
> 
> In fact to me, participation in games like muay thai, boxing matches or mma are ideal ways to train your karate or tkd or wing chun.
> 
> Also its really not just tkd, its all traditional arts that pulled in generations with awesome movie fights but were not trained or practiced enough to cope with mma.
> 
> The disillusioned are everywhere. Most just need to adjust how they train.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> No you havent. There was one dude complaining, with zero generated discussion


You ignored the entire Google search link someone provided for you, with a rather long list of people saying bad things about Muay Thai, just like you'd find for pretty much any art or system.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I haven't checked. But I do know that he opened his own restaurant as well.


Ah, so in your eyes, someone who has two streams of income must be getting wealthy from the first one - that's why he decided to work on a second one.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I haven't checked. But I do know that he opened his own restaurant as well.



Owning a restaurant is not evidence of wealth. Lots of broke people own restaurants. There might even be a causal relationship there.  

Do you have any evidence at all that your money-grubbing master is making huge amounts of profit? So far your evidence has been:

I don't know what kind of car he drives
I've never seen his home
I don't know how much money he makes
In fact, I know almost nothing about him at all
He's friends with Jhoon Rhee
He charges money for black belts
His school has lots of kids
And he'll be bankrupt soon because lemme tell you restaurants are real money pits
Come'on Sherlock...you must have more clues than that about his enormous wealth!  Dish!  We want to hear the details!


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Ah, so in your eyes, someone who has two streams of income must be getting wealthy from the first one - that's why he decided to work on a second one.



Yes because expanding your business is unheard of.


----------



## Martial D

This thread reminds me of an old truism. The more you learn the more you realize you know very little.

The inverse is also true.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Ah, so in your eyes, someone who has two streams of income must be getting wealthy from the first one - that's why he decided to work on a second one.



Yes because expanding your business is unheard of.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Owning a restaurant is not evidence of wealth. Lots of broke people own restaurants. There might even be a causal relationship there.
> 
> Do you have any evidence at all that your money-grubbing master is making huge amounts of profit? So far your evidence has been:
> 
> I don't know what kind of car he drives
> I've never seen his home
> I don't know how much money he makes
> In fact, I know almost nothing about him at all
> He's friends with Jhoon Rhee
> He charges money for black belts
> His school has lots of kids
> And he'll be bankrupt soon because lemme tell you restaurants are real money pits
> Come'on Sherlock...you must have more clues than that about his enormous wealth!  Dish!  We want to hear the details!



Dude, your'e tyring too hard. You will never outwitt me. Give it a rest.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Yes because expanding your business is unheard of.



And yet...we've heard of it.  Coincidence?  Or conspiracy!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Yes because expanding your business is unheard of.


You're dodging the point. The restaurant is not evidence he's getting rich from his MA business.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Dude, your'e tyring too hard. You will never outwitt me. Give it a rest.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Dude, your'e tyring too hard. You will never outwitt me. Give it a rest.


That would be a waste of effort - you're presenting no wit for anyone to out.


----------



## CB Jones

Martial D said:


> This thread reminds me of an old truism. The more you learn the more you realize you know very little.
> 
> The inverse is also true.



It reminds me more of this:


----------



## Axiom

CB Jones said:


> It reminds me more of this:



Or, it takes two to tango.


----------



## Axiom

Have to quote Mark Twain also. Glad we got that cliché out of the way.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

We finally got to the point where he's not even attempting to hide being a troll anymore. Just about a week after this thread was started, right on schedule.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

We finally got to the point where he's not even attempting to hide being a troll anymore. Just about a week after this thread was started, right on schedule.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> That would be a waste of effort - you're presenting no wit for anyone to out.


----------



## Martial D

Dup


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> We finally got to the point where he's not even attempting to hide being a troll anymore. Just about a week after this thread was started, right on schedule.



I'd say you guys are the ones trolling


----------



## RTKDCMB

elder999 said:


> erm...greed generates money. Money generates power.
> 
> just sayin'......


'Greed is eternal'

Rule of Acquisition number 10.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Double post:


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Show me an equivalent comment to this about Muay Thai:
> _
> "As someone who has done taekwondo throughout my teen years (5+), and spent a few years teaching, I can tell you it is a fuckin joke. Most schools, even if they call themselves traditional, are total garbage and do not teach adequate self defense. Would not recommend unless you are just doing it for sport/fun and doing olympic style.
> 
> I got to a pretty advanced level at 2nd dan- could do 540 hook kicks and more flashy kicks, and could also beat up on other kids in sparring that somehow had a 4th degree belt. I do not believe this has much real life application. The only chance in a street fight that I would say I have is by unsuspecting head kick or spinning back kick by total surprise- and after the first attempt it's basically useless."_


And how do you know these two people are even credible?


----------



## MA_Student

Double post


----------



## Axiom

Here's more like it: 80s all over again, and I love it


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> And how do you know these two people are even credible?



It's all a conspiracy?

Why do many people here hate Tae Kwon Do?

Why does people bash on taekwondo?  - Off-Topic Discussion - GameSpot

Why is Taekwondo looked down upon? • r/martialarts

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-man...ul-strike-How-can-I-get-people-to-consider-it

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Taekwo...-is-it-easier-to-be-a-black-belt-holder-than-

Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*

Why do so many people on this sub consider Taekwondo to be an inferior art? • r/martialarts


----------



## Axiom

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?23133-Tae-Kwon-do-sucks!


----------



## Axiom

You guys, did not link to THREADS with Muay Thai sucks. Only threads in which muay thai and sucks were included.. There were like 3 out of a thousand..


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Here's more like it: 80s all over again, and I love it


Are you contending that there are no demonstrations like those today?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> It's all a conspiracy?
> 
> Why do many people here hate Tae Kwon Do?
> 
> Why does people bash on taekwondo?  - Off-Topic Discussion - GameSpot
> 
> Why is Taekwondo looked down upon? • r/martialarts
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-man...ul-strike-How-can-I-get-people-to-consider-it
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Taekwo...-is-it-easier-to-be-a-black-belt-holder-than-
> 
> Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*
> 
> Why do so many people on this sub consider Taekwondo to be an inferior art? • r/martialarts


And yet, you still ignore the Google search about Muay Thai.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> You guys, did not link to THREADS with Muay Thai sucks. Only threads in which muay thai and sucks were included.. There were like 3 out of a thousand..


And you still ignore the Google search. You are the living embodiment of "confirmation bias".


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> And you still ignore the Google search. You are the living embodiment of "confirmation bias".



There are threads about threads about TKD sucking! How many: "how come everybody dismisses Muay Thai-threads" exist?


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> You guys, did not link to THREADS with Muay Thai sucks. Only threads in which muay thai and sucks were included.. There were like 3 out of a thousand..


Here you go here's a whole video about it and it's from a grandmaster martial arts expert so there's all the proof you need


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Show me an equivalent comment to this about Muay Thai:
> _
> "As someone who has done taekwondo throughout my teen years (5+), and spent a few years teaching, I can tell you it is a fuckin joke. Most schools, even if they call themselves traditional, are total garbage and do not teach adequate self defense. Would not recommend unless you are just doing it for sport/fun and doing olympic style.
> 
> I got to a pretty advanced level at 2nd dan- could do 540 hook kicks and more flashy kicks, and could also beat up on other kids in sparring that somehow had a 4th degree belt. I do not believe this has much real life application. The only chance in a street fight that I would say I have is by unsuspecting head kick or spinning back kick by total surprise- and after the first attempt it's basically useless."_


This is a quote from Martialartstutor. No more needs to be said. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Show me an equivalent comment to this about Muay Thai:
> _
> "As someone who has done taekwondo throughout my teen years (5+), and spent a few years teaching, I can tell you it is a fuckin joke. Most schools, even if they call themselves traditional, are total garbage and do not teach adequate self defense. Would not recommend unless you are just doing it for sport/fun and doing olympic style.
> 
> I got to a pretty advanced level at 2nd dan- could do 540 hook kicks and more flashy kicks, and could also beat up on other kids in sparring that somehow had a 4th degree belt. I do not believe this has much real life application. The only chance in a street fight that I would say I have is by unsuspecting head kick or spinning back kick by total surprise- and after the first attempt it's basically useless."_


This is a quote from Martialartstutor. No more needs to be said.


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> There are threads about threads about TKD sucking!



You can say the same about the earth being flat...but that doesn't mean it is.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Here you go here's a whole video about it and it's from a grandmaster martial arts expert so there's all the proof you need



Maybe you should open your links before you post them. He is obviously being facetious.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> There are threads about threads about TKD sucking! How many: "how come everybody dismisses Muay Thai-threads" exist?


And you continue to miss the entire point.

In summation, you believe there's a problem with TKD in MT competition, and have bashed everyone who presents a counter to any of your points, or who even asks for something that backs up your points. You believe there's an epidemic in US TKD based upon what goes on in your UK association, because there's some relationship. You believe your instructor is making too much money, and him having a second business is evidence of that. You believe martial arts should only be taught by people who don't make money (or don't make much - you've said both), but cannot demonstrate any reason why that should be so. You believe MT is held in much higher esteem and no former students ever talk bad about it, and your evidence for this is that there are meta-threads about TKD, and you haven't seen any threads about "MT sucks", because you haven't looked.

In essence, you started with a set of beliefs. Every time anyone has asked you to clarify or support those beliefs, you bashed. Every time someone presented a counter-argument, you either ignored it or simply used some other phrase in their post to change the subject.

Your views are dogmatic, nearly religious.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Maybe you should open your links before you post them. He is obviously being facetious.


Really?????


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gnarlie said:


> This is a quote from Martialartstutor. No more needs to be said.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


That's the guy! I've been thinking Axiom would get along with those two, couldn't think of their names.


----------



## MA_Student

Double post


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Maybe you should open your links before you post them. He is obviously being facetious.


I think you missed the humor. Maybe you should look for more than confirmation of what you believe.


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> Maybe you should open your links before you post them. He is obviously being facetious.


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> This is a quote from Martialartstutor. No more needs to be said.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



No it's not. Workout Programs


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Here you go here's a whole video about it and it's from a grandmaster martial arts expert so there's all the proof you need


I hadn't seen that one. That has some of his best awkwardly long pauses.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Here's more like it: 80s all over again, and I love it



That is what you consider impressive? A choreographed demo with compliant partners and breaking (mostly) wafer boards?
#facepalm


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Here's more like it: 80s all over again, and I love it



That is what you consider impressive? A choreographed demo with compliant partners and breaking (mostly) wafer boards?
#facepalm


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> That is what you consider impressive? A choreographed demo with compliant partners and breaking (mostly) wafer boards?
> #facepalm



Well, his aerial kick at: 0:45 was not exactly trivial, especially concidering his background in ITF. And he did it well!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Well, his aerial kick at: 0:45 was not exactly trivial, especially concidering his background in ITF. And he did it well!


I thought you started this discussion about the fighting application of TKD.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> I thought you started this discussion about the fighting application of TKD.



Most of that takes too long to pull off and is heavily telegraphed, but I do believe an old school master of that generation can pull off an upset with a conservative kick. But I'm also aware that they might not survive the inside boxing and be KO:ed inside a round or two.. Love to see it though. They trained for power back in those day, dedicately.


----------



## Axiom

This needs to be shown, it's a crime:

Old vs modern WTF training


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Most of that takes too long to pull off and is heavily telegraphed, but I do believe an old school master of that generation can pull off an upset with a conservative kick. But I'm also aware that they might not survive the inside boxing and be KO:ed inside a round or two.. Love to see it though. They trained for power back in those day, dedicately.


And you think nobody in TKD today does?


----------



## TrueJim

Actually, my methodology was EXTREMELY scientific. I used precisely the same Google-search methodology that Albert Einstein employed for finding brownie recipes. 

If you merely search on three words "muay" , "thai" , "sucks" , Google will give you every page that includes any of those three words.

But if you instead perform the Google search enclosing all three words in quotes "muay thai sucks" , Google will prioritize the pages that have *that exact phrase: those three words in precisely that order*. (reference: Refine web searches - Google Search Help)

I did not invent this search technique. Madame Curie did. It's the same technique that she used to discover glow sticks. As I said, this is all very scientific, and doubtless over the head of some of my readers. 

I repeated this experiment using a number of different martial arts names, and these are the results that I obtained:

Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
Jiu Jitsu sucks = 3,760 results
Karate sucks = 2,570 results
Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
BJJ sucks = 575 results
Judo sucks = 523 results
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results

As we can see from these numerical results, the RS (the _ratio of suckage_) between Muay Thai and Taekwondo is:

              17,600
RS =    ------------    ~  17.9775280899
                979

Note that you achieve this same numerical value for RS whether you're using Celsius or Fahrenheit, a consequence of Isaac Newtons now-famous Principle of Muay Thai Suckage. (reference: Isaac Newton - Wikipedia) 

From this we can conclude that muay thai has a _Coefficient of Suckage_ that is nearly 18 times higher (that's 00010010 in binary, for all of you computers that are reading this post) than the CoS of taekwondo. 

Ergo, muay thai sucks, taekwondo rules, and Axiom's momma still dresses him funny. I rest my case. QED. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum._ Void where prohibited. May cause drowsiness.

Respectfully Submitted,
Dr. Jim, Ph.D.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> And you think nobody in TKD today does?



Nah, they aren't gunning for each other anymore. I should also be perfectly clear being a power kicker myself that it does not guarantee victory even if it lands. I have bruised my buddy simply from holding kicking shields, yet the kickboxer from Serbia could take it midsection and continue to spar me... I hit him clean and really drove into his body ( he had humiliated me a few days earlier and fights like it's for real).

You can hear one dude blasting kicking shields in practice, and it's only me. Lesson learned: Never expect anything until you've demonstrated it. I get motivated from that Kickboxer. If I had knocked him down, my progress might have stopped. Now I'm never satisfied until he goes down.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Well, his aerial kick at: 0:45 was not exactly trivial, especially concidering his background in ITF. And he did it well!



Right. Because wafer boards require so much ability to break. Kicks like that demonstrate gymnastic ability, not martial arts ability.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Well, his aerial kick at: 0:45 was not exactly trivial, especially concidering his background in ITF. And he did it well!



Right. Because wafer boards require so much ability to break. Kicks like that demonstrate gymnastic ability, not martial arts ability.


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Actually, my methodology was EXTREMELY scientific. I used precisely the same Google-search methodology that Albert Einstein employed for finding brownie recipes.
> 
> If you merely search on three words "muay" , "thai" , "sucks" , Google will give you every page that includes any of those three words.
> 
> But if you instead perform the Google search enclosing all three words in quotes "muay thai sucks" , Google will prioritize the pages that have *that exact phrase: those three words in precisely that order*. (reference: Refine web searches - Google Search Help)
> 
> I did not invent this search technique. Madame Curie did. It's the same technique that she used to discover glow sticks. As I said, this is all very scientific, and doubtless over the head of some of my readers.
> 
> I repeated this experiment using a number of different martial arts names, and these are the results that I obtained:
> 
> Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
> Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
> Jiu Jitsu sucks = 3,760 results
> Karate sucks = 2,570 results
> Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
> BJJ sucks = 575 results
> Judo sucks = 523 results
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results
> 
> As we can see from these numerical results, the RS (the _ratio of suckage_) between Muay Thai and Taekwondo is:
> 
> 17,600
> RS =    ------------    ~  17.9775280899
> 979
> 
> Note that you achieve this same numerical value for RS whether you're using Celsius or Fahrenheit, a consequence of Isaac Newtons now-famous Principle of Muay Thai Suckage. (reference: Isaac Newton - Wikipedia)
> 
> From this we can conclude that muay thai has a _Coefficient of Suckage_ that is nearly 18 times higher (that's 00010010 in binary, for all of you computers that are reading this post) than the CoS of taekwondo.
> 
> Ergo, muay thai sucks, taekwondo rules, and Axiom's momma still dresses him funny. I rest my case. QED. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum._ Void where prohibited. May cause drowsiness.
> 
> Respectfully Submitted,
> Dr. Jim, Ph.D.



Hits include: *Muay Thai boxing sucks*, this or that sucks, all in conjuction with Muay Thai


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Right. Because wafer boards require so much ability to break. Kicks like that demonstrate gymnastic ability, not martial arts ability.



 I am very impressed with an ITF instructor performing aerials at that level. Not saying  ITF masters suck at gymnastics  but it isn't their strong point normally, despite flashy black belt forms. There's just too much packaged in ITF, and a traditional emphasis, that people don't waste time on aerial refinements. 

And some WTF guys likes to point out how weak ITF guys are at kicking, so always nice to shut them up


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Nah, they aren't gunning for each other anymore. I should also be perfectly clear being a power kicker myself that it does not guarantee victory even if it lands. I have bruised my buddy simply from holding kicking shields, yet the kickboxer from Serbia could take it midsection and continue to spar me... I hit him clean and really drove into his body ( he had humiliated me a few days earlier and fights like it's for real).
> 
> You can hear one dude blasting kicking shields in practice, and it's only me. Lesson learned: Never expect anything until you've demonstrated it. I get motivated from that Kickboxer. If I had knocked him down, my progress might have stopped. Now I'm never satisfied until he goes down.


Wait, did you just say nobody works on power in TKD, then IMMEDIATELY turn around and say that you (a TKD student) work on power????


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I am very impressed with an ITF instructor performing aerials at that level. Not saying  ITF masters suck at gymnastics  but it isn't their strong point normally, despite flashy black belt forms. There's just too much packaged in ITF, and a traditional emphasis, that people don't waste time on aerial refinements.
> 
> And some WTF guys likes to point out how weak ITF guys are at kicking, so always nice to shut them up


See, now you're finally supporting your original argument. This attitude (the one in your post) is as likely to degrade fighting ability as anything you posted.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> No it's not. Workout Programs


Might as well be...the language used fits, and I assign his opinion just as much credibility as I assign yours and Martialartstutor's. I. E. ZeRO! 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> Hits include: *Muay Thai boxing sucks*, this or that sucks, all in conjuction with Muay Thai



Nope, you're just ignorant. If Google returned the page, then somewhere on that page somebody typed "muay thai sucks". You have to keep reading down the page to find where.

Go ahead, we'll wait.


----------



## MA_Student

This is just getting silly now it's not even funny


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> I am very impressed with an ITF instructor performing aerials at that level. Not saying  ITF masters suck at gymnastics  but it isn't their strong point normally, despite flashy black belt forms. There's just too much packaged in ITF, and a traditional emphasis, that people don't waste time on aerial refinements.
> 
> And some WTF guys likes to point out how weak ITF guys are at kicking, so always nice to shut them up



Because breaking wafer boards shows you're NOT weak?
#doublefacepalm


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Wait, did you just say nobody works on power in TKD, then IMMEDIATELY turn around and say that you (a TKD student) work on power????



I have it naturally due to blessed genetics. A so called outlier. My buddy bet that nobody would be standing if my turning kick lands.  I tried it on a Kickboxer with full conctact fights in Serbia and I didn't knock him down   So maybe the kicking shields lie, or I didn't get it perfect.. Hard to say in the middle of the fight.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> Because breaking wafer boards shows you're NOT weak?
> #doublefacepalm


Careful, DD, you're going to run out of palms to face.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I have it naturally due to blessed genetics. A so called outlier. My buddy bet that nobody would be standing if my turning kick lands.  I tried it on a Kickboxer with full conctact fights in Serbia and I didn't knock him down   So maybe the kicking shields lie, or I didn't get it perfect.. Hard to say in the middle of the fight.


So, because yours was easier to gain, you think nobody in TKD works on power?


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> So, because yours was easier to gain, you think nobody in TKD works on power?



You didn't happen to open the clip I posted of old vs new WTF training? They have the greatest talent pool and you can take a look for yourself what they're up to.


----------



## Buka

Axiom said:


> This needs to be shown, it's a crime:
> 
> Old vs modern WTF training



What's with the one foot in the bucket thing? I'm not familiar with that.

And True Jim's "_Coefficient of Suckage" _was awesome. That whole post was awesome.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Because breaking wafer boards shows you're NOT weak?
> #doublefacepalm



 Sounds like sour grapes on your part. Are you by any chance jealous of GM Kim Ung Chol?


----------



## Axiom

Hah! Kim Ung Chol is the Vice President of my federation. Was wondering who that guy was...


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> Actually, my methodology was EXTREMELY scientific. I used precisely the same Google-search methodology that Albert Einstein employed for finding brownie recipes.
> 
> If you merely search on three words "muay" , "thai" , "sucks" , Google will give you every page that includes any of those three words.
> 
> But if you instead perform the Google search enclosing all three words in quotes "muay thai sucks" , Google will prioritize the pages that have *that exact phrase: those three words in precisely that order*. (reference: Refine web searches - Google Search Help)
> 
> I did not invent this search technique. Madame Curie did. It's the same technique that she used to discover glow sticks. As I said, this is all very scientific, and doubtless over the head of some of my readers.
> 
> I repeated this experiment using a number of different martial arts names, and these are the results that I obtained:
> 
> Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
> Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
> Jiu Jitsu sucks = 3,760 results
> Karate sucks = 2,570 results
> Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
> BJJ sucks = 575 results
> Judo sucks = 523 results
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results
> 
> As we can see from these numerical results, the RS (the _ratio of suckage_) between Muay Thai and Taekwondo is:
> 
> 17,600
> RS =    ------------    ~  17.9775280899
> 979
> 
> Note that you achieve this same numerical value for RS whether you're using Celsius or Fahrenheit, a consequence of Isaac Newtons now-famous Principle of Muay Thai Suckage. (reference: Isaac Newton - Wikipedia)
> 
> From this we can conclude that muay thai has a _Coefficient of Suckage_ that is nearly 18 times higher (that's 00010010 in binary, for all of you computers that are reading this post) than the CoS of taekwondo.
> 
> Ergo, muay thai sucks, taekwondo rules, and Axiom's momma still dresses him funny. I rest my case. QED. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum._ Void where prohibited. May cause drowsiness.
> 
> Respectfully Submitted,
> Dr. Jim, Ph.D.



Nerd alert.


----------



## Flying Crane

MA_Student said:


> This is just getting silly now it's not even funny


I disagree.  It was silly.  It has progressed to funny.


----------



## Flying Crane

double post


----------



## TrueJim

Meanwhile, on reddit...

Switching from Muay Thai to taekwondo • r/taekwondo


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

TrueJim said:


> Actually, my methodology was EXTREMELY scientific. I used precisely the same Google-search methodology that Albert Einstein employed for finding brownie recipes.
> 
> If you merely search on three words "muay" , "thai" , "sucks" , Google will give you every page that includes any of those three words.
> 
> But if you instead perform the Google search enclosing all three words in quotes "muay thai sucks" , Google will prioritize the pages that have *that exact phrase: those three words in precisely that order*. (reference: Refine web searches - Google Search Help)
> 
> I did not invent this search technique. Madame Curie did. It's the same technique that she used to discover glow sticks. As I said, this is all very scientific, and doubtless over the head of some of my readers.
> 
> I repeated this experiment using a number of different martial arts names, and these are the results that I obtained:
> 
> Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
> Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
> Jiu Jitsu sucks = 3,760 results
> Karate sucks = 2,570 results
> Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
> BJJ sucks = 575 results
> Judo sucks = 523 results
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results
> 
> As we can see from these numerical results, the RS (the _ratio of suckage_) between Muay Thai and Taekwondo is:
> 
> 17,600
> RS =    ------------    ~  17.9775280899
> 979
> 
> Note that you achieve this same numerical value for RS whether you're using Celsius or Fahrenheit, a consequence of Isaac Newtons now-famous Principle of Muay Thai Suckage. (reference: Isaac Newton - Wikipedia)
> 
> From this we can conclude that muay thai has a _Coefficient of Suckage_ that is nearly 18 times higher (that's 00010010 in binary, for all of you computers that are reading this post) than the CoS of taekwondo.
> 
> Ergo, muay thai sucks, taekwondo rules, and Axiom's momma still dresses him funny. I rest my case. QED. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum._ Void where prohibited. May cause drowsiness.
> 
> Respectfully Submitted,
> Dr. Jim, Ph.D.




I could not contain laughter reading this. Now my friend thinks I'm crazy. Thanks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> You didn't happen to open the clip I posted of old vs new WTF training? They have the greatest talent pool and you can take a look for yourself what they're up to.


Yeah, and I've not run into those things. That's one school doing something that appears to be a bad example of training. Again, confirmation bias.

(It's worth pointing out that the "old" doesn't look like it was captured on VHS.)


----------



## Axiom

You will recall that my original request was for former students in Muay Thai bashing their art, and was only able to find one or two. In TKD there's endless.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> You will recall that my original request was for former students in Muay Thai bashing their art, and was only able to find one or two. In TKD there's endless.


And you STILL ignore the Google search.


----------



## Steve

TrueJim said:


> Yes sir, I agree!  My own master and I discuss this all the time:
> 
> 
> *Me:  *"Master!  I have learned that some schools charge for taekwondo instruction.  Have you ever heard of such a thing?"
> 
> *Him:* "Ahhh, grasshopper. I feared this day would come. Please, sit. Share some hot tea with me."
> 
> <My master never eats. His only sustenance is hot green tea and the joy of teaching. I pour the tea and sit on the discarded burlap sacks that we use as chairs.>
> 
> *Him: *"Yes grasshopper, it is true. Some schools charge for taekwondo instruction."
> 
> <My master's body shudders as he utters these fateful words. For myself, I can feel only a cold chill in my spine, as if somebody has just crossed my grave.>
> 
> *Me: *"But sir, what about the purity of the art?"
> 
> <My master's voice rises with a sense of righteous outage.>
> 
> *Him:* "These other supposed masters...these visigoths...these gutternipes! They care only for paying the rent and buying food. They have no concern for the purity of the art!"
> 
> <My master's voice falls into a hushed whisper, as if telling me a deepest, darkest secret. What will he say? I wonder, will he finally tell me now the secret of the _Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?_ But no, after a long pause, he finally speaks...>
> 
> *Him: *"It is said that at some of these schools, they even teach taekwondo...._to children_."
> 
> <The world falls away from me as my heart stops beating. My head is spinning as my sense of reality shatters like my enemy's sternum in the onslaught of my fearsome roundhouse. Shocked, I gasp...>
> 
> *Me: *"No sir! This cannot be! How did this come to pass! Who is to blame for this foulest of evils!"
> 
> <My master bows his head in weary dismay. He says the name slowly, one word at a time.>
> 
> *Him:* "Jhoon. Goo. Rhee."
> 
> From that moment on, I launched myself on a righteous crusade. I have dedicated my life to finding and destroying JHOON...GOO...RHEE!!!!!
> 
> 
> So you see, Axiom, you and I are entirely on the same page here.


Brilliant.  Slow clap worthy!


----------



## paitingman

This is nonsense.

the OP is trolling hard and obviously has no intention of carrying on a real discussion.

Many including myself have offered rebuttals, information, and personal experience and all have been met with pretty much crazy talk. 
I no longer have any clue what's going on in this thread.


----------



## paitingman

This is nonsense.

the OP is trolling hard and obviously has no intention of carrying on a real discussion.

Many including myself have offered rebuttals, information, and personal experience and all have been met with pretty much crazy talk.
I no longer have any clue what's going on in this thread.


----------



## paitingman

This is nonsense.

the OP is trolling hard and obviously has no intention of carrying on a real discussion.

Many including myself have offered rebuttals, information, and personal experience and all have been met with pretty much crazy talk.
I no longer have any clue what's going on in this thread.


----------



## Axiom

paitingman said:


> This is nonsense.
> 
> the OP is trolling hard and obviously has no intention of carrying on a real discussion.
> 
> Many including myself have offered rebuttals, information, and personal experience and all have been met with pretty much crazy talk.
> I no longer have any clue what's going on in this thread.



Okey, so tell me which pro muay thai fighter you've beaten? The only TKD wins online are TKD national champions against bottom of the barell thaiboxers.


----------



## Axiom

paitingman said:


> This is nonsense.
> 
> the OP is trolling hard and obviously has no intention of carrying on a real discussion.
> 
> Many including myself have offered rebuttals, information, and personal experience and all have been met with pretty much crazy talk.
> I no longer have any clue what's going on in this thread.



Okey, so tell me which pro Muay Thai fighter you've beaten? The only TKD wins online are TKD national champions against bottom of the barrel thaiboxers.


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> Okey, so tell me which pro Muay Thai fighter you've beaten? The only TKD wins online are TKD national champions against bottom of the barrel thaiboxers.


Oh snap now we all have to be professional fighters haha.
Again, you want nothing to do with real discussion. You don't actually respond to any point made by anyone. Just nonsense like this


----------



## Flying Crane

paitingman said:


> This is nonsense.
> 
> the OP is trolling hard and obviously has no intention of carrying on a real discussion.
> 
> Many including myself have offered rebuttals, information, and personal experience and all have been met with pretty much crazy talk.
> I no longer have any clue what's going on in this thread.


And three posts for the price of one!!  Has the internet gone mad!!???


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> They trained for power back in those day, dedicately.


We train for power these days too:


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> It's all a conspiracy?



Because it has to be right?



Axiom said:


> Why do many people here hate Tae Kwon Do?



Most of what is said on Bulshido.net can be taken with a grain of salt.



Axiom said:


> Why does people bash on taekwondo? - Off-Topic Discussion - GameSpot



Everyone knows that if you want to get information about martial arts ask a gamer. 



Axiom said:


> Why is Taekwondo looked down upon? • r/martialarts



How do you know any of those commenters are credible?



Axiom said:


> https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-man...ul-strike-How-can-I-get-people-to-consider-it



Didn't actually read that one did ya?



Axiom said:


> https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Taekwo...-is-it-easier-to-be-a-black-belt-holder-than-



Link not found, error 404.



Axiom said:


> Why is Taekwondo always considered weak and ineffective? *conversation included*



Judging by the first page opinions appear to be both for and against your argument, bit you know what they say about opinions? 



Axiom said:


> Why do so many people on this sub consider Taekwondo to be an inferior art? • r/martialarts



And again, more opinions.

There is nothing in any of those threads that lends any credibility to either of the two people you quoted. Opinions are not evidence, especially when none of those opinions are about the two people you quoted..


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> He is obviously being facetious.


He can be taken just as seriously as Martialartstutor.


----------



## RTKDCMB

TrueJim said:


> Actually, my methodology was EXTREMELY scientific. I used precisely the same Google-search methodology that Albert Einstein employed for finding brownie recipes.
> 
> If you merely search on three words "muay" , "thai" , "sucks" , Google will give you every page that includes any of those three words.
> 
> But if you instead perform the Google search enclosing all three words in quotes "muay thai sucks" , Google will prioritize the pages that have *that exact phrase: those three words in precisely that order*. (reference: Refine web searches - Google Search Help)
> 
> I did not invent this search technique. Madame Curie did. It's the same technique that she used to discover glow sticks. As I said, this is all very scientific, and doubtless over the head of some of my readers.
> 
> I repeated this experiment using a number of different martial arts names, and these are the results that I obtained:
> 
> Kung Fu sucks = 59,400 results
> Muay Thai sucks = 17,600 results
> Jiu Jitsu sucks = 3,760 results
> Karate sucks = 2,570 results
> Taekwondo sucks = 979 results
> BJJ sucks = 575 results
> Judo sucks = 523 results
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sucks = 8 results
> 
> As we can see from these numerical results, the RS (the _ratio of suckage_) between Muay Thai and Taekwondo is:
> 
> 17,600
> RS =    ------------    ~  17.9775280899
> 979
> 
> Note that you achieve this same numerical value for RS whether you're using Celsius or Fahrenheit, a consequence of Isaac Newtons now-famous Principle of Muay Thai Suckage. (reference: Isaac Newton - Wikipedia)
> 
> From this we can conclude that muay thai has a _Coefficient of Suckage_ that is nearly 18 times higher (that's 00010010 in binary, for all of you computers that are reading this post) than the CoS of taekwondo.
> 
> Ergo, muay thai sucks, taekwondo rules, and Axiom's momma still dresses him funny. I rest my case. QED. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum._ Void where prohibited. May cause drowsiness.
> 
> Respectfully Submitted,
> Dr. Jim, Ph.D.


I Googled "Rhee Taekwondo sucks". "Rhee Taekwon do sucks" and "Rhee Tae kwon do sucks", all in quotes, got zero results all three times.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I have it naturally due to blessed genetics. A so called outlier.


Yeah, OK, sure.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> This needs to be shown, it's a crime:
> 
> Old vs modern WTF training


Which one is which, and which one is supposed to be better than the other?


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Which one is which, and which one is supposed to be better than the other?



Old WTF is a frantic mess with soccer kicks, the new one is  ehm.. painting. But at least the old one is fighting.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Old WTF is a frantic mess with soccer kicks, the new one is  ehm.. painting. But at least the old one is fighting.


Still doesn't answer my question.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Still doesn't answer my question.



It shows you right on the screen, left side is "before" (old).


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> It shows you right on the screen, left side is "before" (old).


And why is that better?


----------



## RTKDCMB

OK, figured out how to avoid double posting. Just click "Post Reply', wait a few seconds and check the last page of the thread to see if it was posted.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> And why is that better?



I'm not going to repeat myself


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I'm not going to repeat myself


No answer huh?


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Old WTF is a frantic mess with soccer kicks, the new one is  ehm.. painting. But at least the old one is fighting.


What rot. You have never fought in either, so what would you know about it?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## TrueJim

RTKDCMB said:


> No answer huh?



When Axiom doesn't have an answer, he changes the topic. Up next: his master's lucrative fondue restaurant has ruined capoeira with its excessively cheesy cheese.


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> What rot.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Excellent rejoinder!

"Soccer kick" is the ITF informal term for WTFs bit chagi. I borrowed the term from my ITF 5th degree assistant instructor about you guys. ITF sparring sucks almost as bad, but not quite. We can solve part of our "suckiness" by cranking up the contact level, which we do.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Excellent rejoinder!



I thought so, yes. No point wasting time and effort on such banal nonsense. 



Axiom said:


> "Soccer kick" is the ITF informal term for WTFs bit chagi.


There is no such kick outside of European terminology. The kick is dollyo chagi. Calling sport kicking soccer kicks demonstrates a drastic ignorance of kicking mechanics, and a lack of respect (again). I'd expect more from an instructor of any art (but not from you). 


Axiom said:


> I borrowed the term from my ITF 5th degree assistant instructor about you guys.



Just like you to parrot something incorrect that you heard elsewhere, no? 


Axiom said:


> ITF sparring sucks almost as bad, but not quite. We can solve part of our "suckiness" by cranking up the contact level, which we do.



Irrelevant. 


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> I thought so, yes. No point wasting time and effort on such banal nonsense.
> 
> 
> There is no such kick outside of European terminology. The kick is dollyo chagi. Calling sport kicking soccer kicks demonstrates a drastic ignorance of kicking mechanics, and a lack of respect (again). I'd expect more from an instructor of any art (but not from you).
> 
> 
> Just like you to parrot something incorrect that you heard elsewhere, no?
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



There is some of the formal bodymechanics still present, but much less pronounced. That is why we refer to it as "soccer" kicks.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> There is some of the formal bodymechanics still present, but much less pronounced. That is why we refer to it as "soccer" kicks.


Erroneously. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> There is some of the formal bodymechanics still present, but much less pronounced. That is why we refer to it as "soccer" kicks.


Erroneously...are you really going to try and lecture us all on kicking mechanics now? Because if you are, you're gonna have a bad time.



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> ITF sparring sucks almost as bad, but not quite. We can solve part of our "suckiness" by cranking up the contact level, which we do.


If you have video footage of that I, for one, would like to see it.


----------



## Gnarlie

RTKDCMB said:


> If you have video footage of that I, for one, would like to see it.


Seconded. Let's see you move. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

I was chatting at the local UFC gym with A Muay Thai fighter who is going to the Pan-Am games next month.  I am tempted to ask him to do some sparring movements with me, as he was doing with a 11 year old kid, just to see how much I don't see coming!

I'm a little bigger, but also far less trained, far less athletic, and probably 25 years older.....it would be over in a jiffy if he wanted!


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> If you have video footage of that I, for one, would like to see it.



There is no magic to it. We don't pull our strikes. That's the only difference. I'm struggling though because my opponent knows both kickboxing and ITF taeKwondo, since his instructor in Serbia was both a Kickboxer and TKD instructor (ITF). And he's a trained fighter in full contact.  So he has the best of both worlds and and can box my head of, set up attacks, throw combos.. While I'm stuck with just TaeKwondo.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> There is no magic to it. We don't pull our strikes. That's the only difference. I'm struggling though because my opponent knows both kickboxing and ITF taeKwondo, since his instructor in Serbia was both a Kickboxer and TKD instructor (ITF). And he's a trained fighter in full contact.  So he has the best of both worlds and and can box my head of, set up attacks, throw combos.. While I'm stuck with just TaeKwondo.


How much time has he been training vs. You? How often does he train compared to you, and how intense is his training compared to yours?


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> There is no magic to it. We don't pull our strikes. That's the only difference. I'm struggling though because my opponent knows both kickboxing and ITF taeKwondo, since his instructor in Serbia was both a Kickboxer and TKD instructor (ITF). And he's a trained fighter in full contact.  So he has the best of both worlds and and can box my head of, set up attacks, throw combos.. While I'm stuck with just TaeKwondo.


Unless of course you break out your super elite boxing jab you just learned last week, then he crumbles right?


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> How much time has he been training vs. You? How often does he train compared to you, and how intense is his training compared to yours?



Don't know, but it doesn't matter. Joe Rogan was 5 time state champion of TaeKwondo and got his head boxed in by regular guys in Kickboxing gyms who had trained fewer years than him.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Don't know, but it doesn't matter. Joe Rogan was 5 time state champion of TaeKwondo and got his head boxed in by regular guys in Kickboxing gyms who had trained fewer years than him.


It does matter. I've seen guys who trained in TKD (not sport/for competition, but what they called 'traditional' TKD, who could beat me and some other fighters who had more experience. If your level of training and experience is not matching up with someone with the same level from a different style/school, that's normally an issue with you or your school, not your style.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> There is no magic to it. We don't pull our strikes. That's the only difference. I'm struggling though because my opponent knows both kickboxing and ITF taeKwondo, since his instructor in Serbia was both a Kickboxer and TKD instructor (ITF). And he's a trained fighter in full contact.  So he has the best of both worlds and and can box my head of, set up attacks, throw combos.. While I'm stuck with just TaeKwondo.


Is that a no on the video?


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> It does matter. I've seen guys who trained in TKD (not sport/for competition, but what they called 'traditional' TKD, who could beat me and some other fighters who had more experience. If your level of training and experience is not matching up with someone with the same level from a different style/school, that's normally an issue with you or your school, not your style.



Talking about Boxers/Kickboxers now. Never claimed TKD fails against every style. Joe said they had plenty of Kung Fu guys challenging them in the dojang and the Kung fu guys got a bitter taste of reality every single time. So it all depends what you measure it against. TKD on its own does not match up well against Kickboxing.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Is that a no on the video?



I won't give you or that other dude any videos. I've got nothing to prove to either of you.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Talking about Boxers/Kickboxers now. Never claimed TKD fails against every style. Joe said they had plenty of Kung Fu guys challenging them in the dojang and the Kung fu guys got a bitter taste of reality every single time. So it all depends what you measure it against. TKD on its own does not match up well against Kickboxing.


My secondary style is kickboxing. The other fighters I was referring to include: Judo, Sambo, kickboxing, boxing, full-contact karate, and tae-kwon do. It was quite a diverse dojo.
Edit: No kung fu or muay thai though, so I suppose I don't know how it compares to those.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Talking about Boxers/Kickboxers now. Never claimed TKD fails against every style. Joe said they had plenty of Kung Fu guys challenging them in the dojang and the Kung fu guys got a bitter taste of reality every single time. So it all depends what you measure it against. TKD on its own does not match up well against Kickboxing.


My secondary style is kickboxing. The other fighters I was referring to include: Judo, Sambo, kickboxing, boxing, full-contact karate, and tae-kwon do. It was quite a diverse dojo.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> My secondary style is kickboxing. The other fighters I was referring to include: Judo, Sambo, kickboxing, boxing, full-contact karate, and tae-kwon do. It was quite a diverse dojo.
> Edit: No kung fu or muay thai though, so I suppose I don't know how it compares to those.



A guy who learns even rudimentary boxing (and no, hitting mitts does not cut it) is VERY dangerous with TKD kicks. It's akin to teaching a wrestler jujitsu. But regular roundhouses in conjuction with boxing is perfectly fine as well. 

But I do remember Rogan relaying that the Kung Fu challengers were stubborn and got very badly hurt, and that it was an unpleasent and unneccesary experience.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I won't give you or that other dude any videos. I've got nothing to prove to either of you.


So all talk then.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> So all talk then.



All talk about getting my *** whopped with TKD?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> All talk about getting my *** whopped with TKD?


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> There is no magic to it. We don't pull our strikes. That's the only difference. I'm struggling though because my opponent knows both kickboxing and ITF taeKwondo, since his instructor in Serbia was both a Kickboxer and TKD instructor (ITF). And he's a trained fighter in full contact.  So he has the best of both worlds and and can box my head of, set up attacks, throw combos.. While I'm stuck with just TaeKwondo.



In 4 years of Taekwondo lessons how is it that you think you understand the art enough to croticise it's global short-comings but haven't figured out how to set up attacks or throw combinations?


----------



## Axiom

DaveB said:


> In 4 years of Taekwondo lessons how is it that you think you understand the art enough to croticise it's global short-comings but haven't figured out how to set up attacks or throw combinations?



How is it that Joe Rogan after 10+ years  and championship titels forms the exact same opinion?


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> How is it that Joe Rogan after 10+ years  and championship titels forms the exact same opinion?


He doesn't. Not that it would matter if he did.

As far as appeals to authority go, I give this one a D-


----------



## Axiom

Martial D said:


> He doesn't. Not that it would matter if he did.
> 
> As far as appeals to authority go, I give this one a D-



Yes he does. 




I don't appeal to his views formed in isolation, but after actual experience where he got annihilated.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> A guy who learns even rudimentary boxing (and no, hitting mitts does not cut it) is VERY dangerous with TKD kicks. It's akin to teaching a wrestler jujitsu. But regular roundhouses in conjuction with boxing is perfectly fine as well.
> 
> But I do remember Rogan relaying that the Kung Fu challengers were stubborn and got very badly hurt, and that it was an unpleasent and unneccesary experience.


From your experience (/rogans experience since I know that will be tour response), tkd kicks don't work against boxers. From my experience, I have seen TKD work against boxers. May be that means that there is more to TKD then either of us (or all three of us) have experienced?


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> From your experience (/rogans experience since I know that will be tour response), tkd kicks don't work against boxers. From my experience, I have seen TKD work against boxers. May be that means that there is more to TKD then either of us (or all three of us) have experienced?



Let's keep it to Kickboxers/Muay Thai fighters for arguments sake


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Let's keep it to Kickboxers/Muay Thai fighters for arguments sake


Wat. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I won't give you or that other dude any videos. I've got nothing to prove to either of you.


You've yet to prove anything you've posted so far, why should this be any different.

For the record, Rogan is not and was not a great authority on TKD, even if we limit it just to sport. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gnarlie said:


> For the record, Rogan is not and was not a great authority on TKD, even if we limit it just to sport.


I'm curious about this statement. Wasn't he a top competitor in TKD for a while?


----------



## Gnarlie

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious about this statement. Wasn't he a top competitor in TKD for a while?


He was a state champion. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious about this statement. Wasn't he a top competitor in TKD for a while?



He moved up the belts unusually fast and was allowed into tournaments fighting higher grades.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Let's keep it to Kickboxers/Muay Thai fighters for arguments sake


Same argument for kickboxers. And as you said "talking about boxers/kickboxers now".


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> He moved up the belts unusually fast and was allowed into tournaments fighting higher grades.


He began competing at 14, and retired at 21. Somewhere in there, he was allegedly Massachusetts state champion (although it remains unclear under what affiliation and against what calibre of Taekwondoin). Either way, even 7 years does not make one an authority worth citing, especially when speaking beyond the sport venue. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> He moved up the belts unusually fast and was allowed into tournaments fighting higher grades.


So did I. It means nothing. And it's not a case of allowed, that's called 'open' competition and involves the likelihood of fighting higher grades by definition. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> He began competing at 14, and retired at 21. Somewhere in there, he was allegedly Massachusetts state champion (although it remains unclear under what affiliation and against what calibre of Taekwondoin). Either way, even 7 years does not make one an authority worth citing, especially when speaking beyond the sport venue.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Point is he was better than your average TKD guy from the street and was pretty hopeless against regular Kickboxers. My Kickboxing guy dominates me in my own rule set because of his hands.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Point is he was better than your average TKD guy from the street and was pretty hopeless against regular Kickboxers. My Kickboxing guy dominates me in my own rule set because of his hands.


Point is, not necessarily. The thing about legitimate champions is they can name the event, the date, the division, etc, especially where the event was WTF sanctioned. Without that, state champion could mean a small time tournament with only 1 or 2 people in the division or even a buy.

There's not much special there. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Point is he was better than your average TKD guy from the street and was pretty hopeless against regular Kickboxers. My Kickboxing guy dominates me in my own rule set because of his hands.


Point is, not necessarily. The thing about legitimate champions is they can name the event, the date, the division, etc, especially where the event was WTF sanctioned. Without that, state champion could mean a small time tournament with only 1 or 2 people in the division or even a buy.

There's not much special there. JR's TKD record is distinctly muddy, and that makes me suspicious. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

I have seen Rogans turning kick and he is not even close in power to mine. Did not help me one ioutta against a guy who had fundamental boxing skills. And we spar with no protective gear or gums, or headgear.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gnarlie said:


> He was a state champion.





Axiom said:


> He moved up the belts unusually fast and was allowed into tournaments fighting higher grades.


Okay, so his comments about TKD fighters might have some merit, but might be based on a fairly small segment. Anyone know about the level and type of TKD tournaments he was in?

And how many years did he train TKD?


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so his comments about TKD fighters might have some merit, but might be based on a fairly small segment. Anyone know about the level and type of TKD tournaments he was in?
> 
> And how many years did he train TKD?



Rogan trained in a sparring format that prohibits face punches. The thing is that I don't, and it only helped me psychologically, not functionally.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I have seen Rogans turning kick and he is not even close in power to mine. Did not help me one ioutta against a guy who had fundamental boxing skills. And we spar with no protective gear or gums, or headgear.


That's your failing to understand the system, not a failing of the system.

Sparring hands without a mouthpiece is just senseless, unless you are moderating contact. Which is it?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gnarlie said:


> He began competing at 14, and retired at 21. Somewhere in there, he was allegedly Massachusetts state champion (although it remains unclear under what affiliation and against what calibre of Taekwondoin). Either way, even 7 years does not make one an authority worth citing, especially when speaking beyond the sport venue.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


So, from a TKD training standpoint, if someone was committing a lot of time to competition, what's their likely depth of knowledge in 7 years? I guess that depends how many hours he fit in. 

(Okay, apparently I don't need anyone else in this conversation - I'll just keep answering my own questions!)


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> That's your failing to understand the system, not a failing of the system.
> 
> Sparring hands without a mouthpiece is just senseless, unless you are moderating contact. Which is it?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Sparring hands? He has kicked me squared in the jaw with a full swing Other guys tell me it's annoying to have mouth piece, for the breathing.


----------



## Gnarlie

gpseymour said:


> So, from a TKD training standpoint, if someone was committing a lot of time to competition, what's their likely depth of knowledge in 7 years? I guess that depends how many hours he fit in.
> 
> (Okay, apparently I don't need anyone else in this conversation - I'll just keep answering my own questions!)


Not much at that age if they are not part of a national team. I think he was a hobbyist like everyone else. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> So, from a TKD training standpoint, if someone was committing a lot of time to competition, what's their likely depth of knowledge in 7 years? I guess that depends how many hours he fit in.
> 
> (Okay, apparently I don't need anyone else in this conversation - I'll just keep answering my own questions!)



He started before 14..  His *competition years* began as 14... He trained manically by his own admission.


----------



## Gnarlie

gpseymour said:


> So, from a TKD training standpoint, if someone was committing a lot of time to competition, what's their likely depth of knowledge in 7 years? I guess that depends how many hours he fit in.
> 
> (Okay, apparently I don't need anyone else in this conversation - I'll just keep answering my own questions!)


Not much at that age if they are not part of a national team. I think he was a hobbyist like everyone else. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Sparring hands? He has kicked me squared in the jaw with a full swing Other guys tell me it's annoying to have mouth piece, for the breathing.


It is a stupid risk not to use one. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> It is a stupid risk not to use one.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



My main priority is to invest in a groin guard, because it psychologically inhibits me from kicking at certain ranges against someone who kicks constantly and as hard as he can.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> He started before 14..  His *competition years* began as 14... He trained manically by his own admission.


There are people on this board with relatives that young who regularly compete at WTF sanctioned events at elite level. Those people would be able to list out every event, every category and every result they have ever competed in / received. Information from JR is conspicuous by it's absence. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> My main priority is to invest in a groin guard, because it psychologically inhibits me from kicking at certain ranges against someone who kicks constantly and as hard as he can.


Even more stupid. Speaks to your lack of experience. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## paitingman

You could also argue Thai kicks are "soccer kicks". just usually with a step and larger hip motion when compared to TKD.
The whole soccer kick criticism is bs to me. If you get the top kickers from a lot of disciplines you'll find their roundhouse kick and the mechanics behind them starts to look the same.

Joe Rogan and a lot of practitioners simply just didn't take it to that level.
You cannot expect to only train olympic tkd and olympic style ruleset, and then do the exact same thing in a kickboxing ring. You have to analyze and adapt. See which tools and skills will work best for you in this new format.
If you want to use your tkd skillset outside of your familiar format, you have to "take it there." Grow and train.

Olympic style sparring is what I credit for giving me all of my greatest weapons: footwork, distance control, and angles.


----------



## paitingman

You could also argue Thai kicks are "soccer kicks". just usually with a step and larger hip motion when compared to TKD.
The whole soccer kick criticism is bs to me. If you get the top kickers from a lot of disciplines you'll find their roundhouse kick and the mechanics behind them starts to look the same.

Joe Rogan and a lot of practitioners simply just didn't take it to that level.
You cannot expect to only train olympic tkd and olympic style ruleset, and then do the exact same thing in a kickboxing ring. You have to analyze and adapt. See which tools and skills will work best for you in this new format.
If you want to use your tkd skillset outside of your familiar format, you have to "take it there." Grow and train.

Olympic style sparring is what I credit to for giving me


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> There are people on this board with relatives that young who regularly compete at WTF sanctioned events at elite level. Those people would be able to list out every event, every category and every result they have ever competed in / received. Information from JR is conspicuous by it's absence.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



I don't think he sees a point in doing that to an interviewer who knows nothing about TaeKwondo sanctioned events.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> My main priority is to invest in a groin guard, because it psychologically inhibits me from kicking at certain ranges against someone who kicks constantly and as hard as he can.


You're planning on dan grading and don't own a groin protector. Hmm. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> Even more stupid. Speaks to your lack of experience.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Again, plenty of people more experienced than me don't wear either one.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I don't think he sees a point in doing that to an interviewer who knows nothing about TaeKwondo sanctioned events.


Rubbish. Successful competitors can show you a track record. He has been asked enough and never given detail. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Again, plenty of people more experienced than me don't wear either one.


Clearly they haven't had the 'experience' either. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> Clearly they haven't had the 'experience' either.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


 
People who kick "correctly" are less likely to kick the groin, Although it depends on what I do in-between, but If I stay calm


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> He has been asked enough and never given detail.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



By whom? News to me that Rogan is hiding anything.


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> Yes he does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't appeal to his views formed in isolation, but after actual experience where he got annihilated.



Do you really think what he said is what you have been saying?

I do wonder.


----------



## Axiom

paitingman said:


> You could also argue Thai kicks are "soccer kicks". just usually with a step and larger hip motion when compared to TKD.
> The whole soccer kick criticism is bs to me. If you get the top kickers from a lot of disciplines you'll find their roundhouse kick and the mechanics behind them starts to look the same.



Meh. Their low kicks are terrific but beyond that I don't argue for Muay Thais superiority based on kicks....


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> Meh. Their low kicks are terrific but beyond that I don't argue for Muay Thais superiority based on kicks....


Thats why i said top kickers. People like saenchai are freaks and have great kicks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

paitingman said:


> Thats why i said top kickers. People like saenchai are freaks and have great kicks
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk



I still say fully chambered mid section kick generate more power than a "Thai hip" - one. But this of course assumes that that the executor is equally at home doing both.


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> That's your failing to understand the system, not a failing of the system.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



A formal TKD system is not designed to combat boxing combinations, or else this would be reflected in the forms, which only cover one-strike type of sequences typical of self defence scenario against amateurs.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> You're planning on dan grading and don't own a groin protector. Hmm.



Lots of people don't. I neither wear nor require a cup. And yes, I've been kicked in the balls. It mostly pisses me off.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I have seen Rogans turning kick and he is not even close in power to mine.



I wish I had the ability to watch a video of a kick and discern how powerful it is.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> I have seen Rogans turning kick and he is not even close in power to mine.



You cannot really judge how much power is in a kick just from watching a video of some bag work.
Given your self-contradictory statements about how powerful your kicks are vs their failure when you use them in sparring, I suspect you cannot even judge how powerful your own kicks are.


----------



## drop bear

TrueJim said:


> I wish I had the ability to watch a video of a kick and discern how powerful it is.



This is what a hard kick looks like.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> You cannot really judge how much power is in a kick just from watching a video of some bag work.
> Given your self-contradictory statements about how powerful your kicks are vs their failure when you use them in sparring, I suspect you cannot even judge how powerful your own kicks are.



That's not true. By way of analogy, even knockout boxers rarely KO with their first punch. I have only kicked this guy clean ONCE, and he is trained in full contact.

These are the kicks I was referring to:


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> A formal TKD system is not designed to combat boxing combinations, or else this would be reflected in the forms, which only cover one-strike type of sequences typical of self defence scenario against amateurs.


In your experience to date.

If you truly and deeply understand the system, you can apply it in any situation. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> Lots of people don't. I neither wear nor require a cup. And yes, I've been kicked in the balls. It mostly pisses me off.


How often are you sparring full contact?

Surely with your medical experience you must appreciate the risks involved.

Regardless of how good one might be, accidents happen. Wearing a protector is just good practice for anyone who spars contact kicking.



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> How often are you sparring full contact?



Every week, generally.



> Surely with your medical experience you must appreciate the risks involved.



I do. And they're not nearly as dire or as common as some people seem to think.



> Regardless of how good one might be, accidents happen. Wearing a protector is just good practice for anyone who spars contact kicking.



I don't wear body armor either.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't wear body armor either.



Nor do I. I never understood why the WTF enforces them. Is it because competitors don't wear shoes and foots aren't conditioned enough?


----------



## Gnarlie

Dirty Dog said:


> Every week, generally.
> 
> 
> 
> I do. And they're not nearly as dire or as common as some people seem to think.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't wear body armor either.


I view groin protection as the minimum. I've seen enough people have to go to hospital / have operations, and been kicked hard enough to put me out of action for a couple of days. 

If you don't use one, you're taking a very unnecessary risk with something I personally don't want to gamble with. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it can't. Ask Bill Wallace. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Nor do I. I never understood why the WTF enforces them. Is it because competitors don't wear shoes and foots aren't conditioned enough?


It's because full contact kicking at elite competitive level a) can easily break bones and b) would leave the competitor injured and compromised for further bouts



Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> I view groin protection as the minimum. I've seen enough people have to go to hospital / have operations, and been kicked hard enough to put me out of action for a couple of days.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



 It makes more sense to wear one under WTF sparring rules IMO.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> It makes more sense to wear one under WTF sparring rules IMO.


If you are sparring full contact, you should be wearing one. Inside the dobok.

You might think you're good, but contact kicking requires two people; a good opponent should be unpredictable and there's always that chance of misjudgement from both parties simultaneously. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> It's because full contact kicking at elite competitive level a) can easily break bones and b) would leave the competitor injured and compromised for further bouts
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



On the competitiors foot you mean? Why not just wear kickboxing shoes like ITF? I would be very impressed if my sparring partner breaks any bones on my body with those shoes on.


----------



## Axiom

The biggest mystery in WTF is the headgear.  

A) it does not prevent knockouts. B) The peripheral vision is handicapped, and in a sport like TKD where techniques can come from crazy angles, headgear creates blind spots.

C) Studies have shown that boxers who wear headgears are more negligent with their guard, and thus increases likelihood of brain damage due to unneccesary blows being taken.

D) Boxing comittee for the Olympics removed them.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> On the competitiors foot you mean? Why not just wear kickboxing shoes like ITF? I would be very impressed if my sparring partner breaks any bones on my body with those shoes on.



Yet more in the long list of things you clearly do not understand. The gloves and feet worn for sparring protect the hands and feet of the striker. Not the ribs of the target.


----------



## paitingman

Axiom said:


> The biggest mystery in WTF is the headgear.
> 
> A) it does not prevent knockouts. B) The peripheral vision is handicapped, and in a sport like TKD where techniques can come from crazy angles, headgear creates blind spots.
> 
> C) Studies have shown that boxers who wear headgears are more negligent with their guard, and thus increases likelihood of brain damage due to unneccesary blows being taken.
> 
> D) Boxing comittee for the Olympics removed them.


The headgear combined with mouthpieces do well enough in protecting from major trauma when eating a kick or hitting the floor.

However, it does allow repeated blunt force trauma to the head. It allows you to take more damage than your brain normally would before it shuts you off. Which is not good and is the main danger in boxing a lot with that type of headgear. 

In olympic tkd these repeated blows to the head in quick succession are not as much of an issue.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> How is it that Joe Rogan after 10+ years and championship titels forms the exact same opinion?



How is it with 30 years of TKD I disagree?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Double post.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> My Kickboxing guy dominates me in my own rule set because of his hands.


Or maybe you just suck at TKD?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> How is it that Joe Rogan after 10+ years  and championship titels forms the exact same opinion?



And with 45+ years, I disagree.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> I don't think he sees a point in doing that to an interviewer who knows nothing about TaeKwondo sanctioned events.


What does he think interviews are for? Just for the interviewer? Or for the general public? Many people who conduct interviews don't know much about the subject the interviewee is talking about.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> A formal TKD system is not designed to combat boxing combinations



And how many formal TKD systems do you have experience in to make that determination?


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> The biggest mystery in WTF is the headgear.
> 
> A) it does not prevent knockouts.


It reduces the likelihood of death from collision between head and ground post KO. 


Axiom said:


> B) The peripheral vision is handicapped, and in a sport like TKD where techniques can come from crazy angles, headgear creates blind spots.


TKD headgear does not limit vision if you have the right size. 


Axiom said:


> C) Studies have shown that boxers who wear headgears are more negligent with their guard, and thus increases likelihood of brain damage due to unneccesary blows being taken.


This has nothing to do with WTF TKD. There is no equivalency. 


Axiom said:


> D) Boxing comittee for the Olympics removed them.



Well whoop. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> On the competitiors foot you mean? Why not just wear kickboxing shoes like ITF? I would be very impressed if my sparring partner breaks any bones on my body with those shoes on.


Dwi chagi. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> And how many formal TKD systems do you have experience in to make that determination?



They all stem from Karate forms suffering the same problem.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> How is it with 30 years of TKD I disagree?



A guy having no-contact sparring format? Yeah, how strange...


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> A guy having no-contact sparring format? Yeah, how strange...


The Dunning-Kruger effect, how strange.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> They all stem from Karate forms suffering the same problem.


And what problem do you imagine that to be?


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> The Dunning-Kruger effect, how strange.



The Dunning Kruger effect is more applicable to you since you believe a no contact sparring format is realistic training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> The Dunning Kruger effect is more applicable to you since you believe a no contact sparring format is realistic training.


At 4 years of training in a TMA, considering yourself a definitive voice on that art as a whole - much D-K going on.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> The Dunning Kruger effect is more applicable to you since you believe a no contact sparring format is realistic training.


Your comment is another example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> Your comment is another example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.



No, you are!


----------



## JR 137

Axiom said:


> The biggest mystery in WTF is the headgear.
> 
> A) it does not prevent knockouts. B) The peripheral vision is handicapped, and in a sport like TKD where techniques can come from crazy angles, headgear creates blind spots.
> 
> C) Studies have shown that boxers who wear headgears are more negligent with their guard, and thus increases likelihood of brain damage due to unneccesary blows being taken.
> 
> D) Boxing comittee for the Olympics removed them.


According to my teacher, the founder of our organization was at an open tournament as a spectator.  He saw a competitor get swept and land square on the back of his head. The competitor was unconscious and taken by ambulance to the hospital.  The competitor has severe brain trauma and fractured his skull.

Our organization's founder immediately mandated head protection that fully covers the back of the head (not all do) during all free sparring and sparring competition.  If it happens to ONE person, that's more than anyone wants.

Helmets are good.  You don't need anyone to kick or punch you in the head to make them worthwhile.

Furthermore, boxing and karate don't have the same inherent risks.  We practice on hardwood floors. We compete on hard gymnasium floors.

And if a helmet obstructs your vision, it's either a poor design or improper fit.

Wearing helmets leads to more concussions and long term issues because people aren't using them properly, not because the helmets themselves; people should be protecting themselves the same way as they would without the helmet.  Put it on and forget it's there rather than putting it on so you can take more hits.


----------



## CB Jones

Before you choose to forego a cup...you might want to read about the possible injuries you could experience 

Testicular Injuries: Causes and Treatments


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> No, you are!


Do you even understand what he's saying? One question would clear it up - but you refuse to ask it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> A guy having no-contact sparring format? Yeah, how strange...


I don't recall him or dirty dog (who commented with 45+ experience) stating they only do no contact sparring. In fact, I'm pretty sure dirty dog stated he has done full contact in the past.


----------



## Gnarlie

gpseymour said:


> Do you even understand what he's saying? One question would clear it up - but you refuse to ask it.


We've been around this loop before with Axiom under other usernames. He doesn't understand what DK is. He'll post a Wikipedia link about it, but he is unable to see or concede that it applies to him rather than the people he is talking to here. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> How is it that Joe Rogan after 10+ years  and championship titels forms the exact same opinion?


1. That is not an answer to the question I asked.

I wanted to know why you are lacking in such basic skills that most kids figure out independent of instruction.
2. Who cares what Joe Rogan thinks? I've been and done


Axiom said:


> I won't give you or that other dude any videos. I've got nothing to prove to either of you.



Actually your claims are counter to the experiences of a bunch of people far more experienced than you. Everything you say at this point requires proof.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> In your experience to date.
> 
> If you truly and deeply understand the system, you can apply it in any situation.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



That's a cop out.

So if the system works it is because the system. If it doesn't it is because you did not understand the system.

The system is never at fault.


----------



## drop bear

paitingman said:


> The headgear combined with mouthpieces do well enough in protecting from major trauma when eating a kick or hitting the floor.
> 
> However, it does allow repeated blunt force trauma to the head. It allows you to take more damage than your brain normally would before it shuts you off. Which is not good and is the main danger in boxing a lot with that type of headgear.
> 
> In olympic tkd these repeated blows to the head in quick succession are not as much of an issue.



Anecdotally some padding is a lot better than no padding. Bare shin in face sucks.


----------



## drop bear

kempodisciple said:


> I don't recall him or dirty dog (who commented with 45+ experience) stating they only do no contact sparring. In fact, I'm pretty sure dirty dog stated he has done full contact in the past.



RTKDCMB does no contact. Did a thread on it here about how there is no difference between non contact and full contact.

Dirty dog does do contact apparently. And also actually fights people in real time. And I would imagine are two very different TKD fighters. 

The issue you have is non contact emphasizes techniques that full contact doesn't. 

There a definitely TKD schools out there that do not produce fighters. I have seen them and they just fill people full of black belts and hope. There are schools out there that produce kick boxing champions.

Effective hands is definitely an indicator of a school that will produce fighters and a school that doesn't.

This even comes out in kyukoshin where even if they are full contact trained face punching can mess them up.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> That's a cop out.
> 
> So if the system works it is because the system. If it doesn't it is because you did not understand the system.
> 
> The system is never at fault.



And hypocritical since he has himself crosstrained in boxing.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Anecdotally some padding is a lot better than no padding. Bare shin in face sucks.



You can condition that in no time.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gnarlie said:


> We've been around this loop before with Axiom under other usernames. He doesn't understand what DK is. He'll post a Wikipedia link about it, but he is unable to see or concede that it applies to him rather than the people he is talking to here.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


What other usernames has he used? Isn't that against one of the terms/procedures on this site?


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> That's a cop out.
> 
> So if the system works it is because the system. If it doesn't it is because you did not understand the system.
> 
> The system is never at fault.


If you are good, it's because you understand and can apply the system. If you are bad, it's because you don't. It's to do with you, not the system. The system is just a tool. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> You can condition that in no time.


That would certainly explain a lot.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> And hypocritical since he has himself crosstrained in boxing.


Doesn't mean I can't / don't apply my home system.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

kempodisciple said:


> What other usernames has he used? Isn't that against one of the terms/procedures on this site?


Yes, it is. I'll leave it to the mods to figure out. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> If you are good, it's because you understand and can apply the system. If you are bad, it's because you don't. It's to do with you, not the system. The system is just a tool.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



The system can be a poor tool.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> The system can be a poor tool.


Yes. But in this case, it is misunderstood. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> That's a cop out.
> 
> So if the system works it is because the system. If it doesn't it is because you did not understand the system.
> 
> The system is never at fault.



Because ignore the facts all you want but a system cannot and does not do anything.

The fight is conducted by the person and adapting the system to the individual and the situation is effectively the whole point of TMA.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> That's a cop out.
> 
> So if the system works it is because the system. If it doesn't it is because you did not understand the system.
> 
> The system is never at fault.



Because ignore the facts all you want but a system cannot and does not do anything.

The fight is conducted by the person and adapting the system to the individual and the situation is effectively the whole point of TMA.

As to poor tools, a punch is a punch a kick is a kick, how you train them determines their effectiveness.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Yes. But in this case, it is misunderstood.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Or it can be a terrible system.


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> Because ignore the facts all you want but a system cannot and does not do anything.
> 
> The fight is conducted by the person and adapting the system to the individual and the situation is effectively the whole point of TMA.
> 
> As to poor tools, a punch is a punch a kick is a kick, how you train them determines their effectiveness.



They are not facts. And if a system has no function they would be interchangeable and have equal results.

A system that teaches you to swim would be equal to a system that teaches you to ride a horse depending on how you train it.

If I said pink swimming clothes provide the same benefit as pink horse riding clothes. So the color pink has no function. That would be what you are trying to argue here. 

A punch taught badly is a bad punch. Even if that bad punch is trained diligently it is still a bad punch.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> A punch taught badly is a bad punch. Even if that bad punch is trained diligently it is still a bad punch.



That's not the problem. The problem is the dynamic elements of boxing, especially defence, that a TKD system does not adress unless the trainer knows boxing. Boxing defence is a science onto itself. Anyone who claims otherwise and think they're fine based on forms has not sparred high level kickboxers


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> That's not the problem. The problem is the dynamic elements of boxing, especially defence, that TKD does not adress unless the trainer knows boxing. Boxing defence is a science onto itself. Anyone who claims otherwise and think they're fine based on forms have not sparred high level kickboxers.



Absolutely. You are not going to magically pick up the concepts of boxing by just training whatever hard or being athletic.

MMA and even kickboxing was a prime example of this. Nobody got toweled up by a thai guy and leg kicks, went back to the gym and decided it was because they hadn't trained their TKD hard enough. They went out and found out how these guys set up their kicks.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Anyone who claims otherwise and think they're fine based on forms has not sparred high level kickboxers


You are assuming the training for defense is based solely on forms.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> Anyone who claims otherwise and think they're fine based on forms has not sparred high level kickboxers


You are assuming the training for defense is based solely on forms.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Doesn't mean I can't / don't apply my home system.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Does it mean you dont really understand your home system though?


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Or it can be a terrible system.


Yes. But in this case, it isn't. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Yes. But in this case, it isn't.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Wait what do you mean in this case? 

Rule 1. The system is never at fault.

Rule 2. If the system is at fault refer to rule 1.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> They are not facts. And if a system has no function they would be interchangeable and have equal results.
> 
> A system that teaches you to swim would be equal to a system that teaches you to ride a horse depending on how you train it.
> 
> If I said pink swimming clothes provide the same benefit as pink horse riding clothes. So the color pink has no function. That would be what you are trying to argue here.
> 
> A punch taught badly is a bad punch. Even if that bad punch is trained diligently it is still a bad punch.



Please stop the spurious analogies they only cloud your understanding of the argument further. Like I said about the exagerations, if the subject matter were that ridiculous you wouldn't need the exaggeration. The same is true here.

We are talking about different ways of doing the same thing. Discussing two different activities cannot in any way relate.

Yes there are more and less efficient mechanics, but most arts use similar if not identical methods, and secondly I honestly don't believe it makes enough difference to be relevant.

If you train your bad punch to be fast, develop good physical strength and learn how to land the blow it will do damage. Few ring fights are won with only one punch and the toughness of the opponent is just as relevant as the strength of the punch.

Plus when you consider that TMA are not intended for gloved fighting, less powerful punches actually make a lot of sense. Boxers are in constant danger of breaking the small bones in their hands so bare knuckle bone on bone fighting almost necessitates lower impact striking.

But I digress.

If you consider that different MA's are trying to get to the same place then a more apt comparison is swimming: back stroke vs breast stroke vs butterfly. A power comparison is like comparing the methods for racing, but a fight is just about reaching a destination. Breast stroke may be slower, but it still gets you there.

In this thread we're discussing Taekwondo. There's no functional difference in punching mechanics that I know of between muay Thai  and tkd (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). Tkd employs a different defensive philosophy ie arm blocks as well as covers and evasion. Add some technique differences in kicking, a strike or kick here and there and the clinch style and all you have left to distinguish the two arts in terms of martial systems are preferential use of techniques and strategies. Nothing concrete because both have scope to be used in different ways; ways that mimick the other.

So what exactly is it intrinsic to this art and not justva function of training and objective that makes one superior to the other?


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> You are assuming the training for defense is based solely on forms.


¨
No. I know that forms are only intended for the beginner and intermediate students. When at an advanced level, the practitioner moves freely. That does not however negate the fact that high quality boxing defence is lacking in TKD.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Does it mean you dont really understand your home system though?


No. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> Wait what do you mean in this case?
> 
> Rule 1. The system is never at fault.
> 
> Rule 2. If the system is at fault refer to rule 1.


In the case of Taekwondo as a system. The system is fine; the practitioner is lacking. You might want to not put words in my mouth. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> Please stop the spurious analogies they only cloud your understanding of the argument further. Like I said about the exagerations, if the subject matter were that ridiculous you wouldn't need the exaggeration. The same is true here.
> 
> We are talking about different ways of doing the same thing. Discussing two different activities cannot in any way relate.
> 
> Yes there are more and less efficient mechanics, but most arts use similar if not identical methods, and secondly I honestly don't believe it makes enough difference to be relevant.
> 
> If you train your bad punch to be fast, develop good physical strength and learn how to land the blow it will do damage. Few ring fights are won with only one punch and the toughness of the opponent is just as relevant as the strength of the punch.
> 
> Plus when you consider that TMA are not intended for gloved fighting, less powerful punches actually make a lot of sense. Boxers are in constant danger of breaking the small bones in their hands so bare knuckle bone on bone fighting almost necessitates lower impact striking.
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> If you consider that different MA's are trying to get to the same place then a more apt comparison is swimming: back stroke vs breast stroke vs butterfly. A power comparison is like comparing the methods for racing, but a fight is just about reaching a destination. Breast stroke may be slower, but it still gets you there.
> 
> In this thread we're discussing Taekwondo. There's no functional difference in punching mechanics that I know of between muay Thai  and tkd (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). Tkd employs a different defensive philosophy ie arm blocks as well as covers and evasion. Add some technique differences in kicking, a strike or kick here and there and the clinch style and all you have left to distinguish the two arts in terms of martial systems are preferential use of techniques and strategies. Nothing concrete because both have scope to be used in different ways; ways that mimick the other.
> 
> So what exactly is it intrinsic to this art and not justva function of training and objective that makes one superior to the other?


I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

 If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method. 

Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race. If you have fallen out of your boat and decided to breast stroke home you will probably die.

The idea that somone does breast strok and is slower and crapper than everybody else is not the fault of the training or the individual. It is because he is doing breast stroke. 

Not all systems are created equal.


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> Please stop the spurious analogies they only cloud your understanding of the argument further. Like I said about the exagerations, if the subject matter were that ridiculous you wouldn't need the exaggeration. The same is true here.
> 
> We are talking about different ways of doing the same thing. Discussing two different activities cannot in any way relate.
> 
> Yes there are more and less efficient mechanics, but most arts use similar if not identical methods, and secondly I honestly don't believe it makes enough difference to be relevant.
> 
> If you train your bad punch to be fast, develop good physical strength and learn how to land the blow it will do damage. Few ring fights are won with only one punch and the toughness of the opponent is just as relevant as the strength of the punch.
> 
> Plus when you consider that TMA are not intended for gloved fighting, less powerful punches actually make a lot of sense. Boxers are in constant danger of breaking the small bones in their hands so bare knuckle bone on bone fighting almost necessitates lower impact striking.
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> If you consider that different MA's are trying to get to the same place then a more apt comparison is swimming: back stroke vs breast stroke vs butterfly. A power comparison is like comparing the methods for racing, but a fight is just about reaching a destination. Breast stroke may be slower, but it still gets you there.
> 
> In this thread we're discussing Taekwondo. There's no functional difference in punching mechanics that I know of between muay Thai  and tkd (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). Tkd employs a different defensive philosophy ie arm blocks as well as covers and evasion. Add some technique differences in kicking, a strike or kick here and there and the clinch style and all you have left to distinguish the two arts in terms of martial systems are preferential use of techniques and strategies. Nothing concrete because both have scope to be used in different ways; ways that mimick the other.
> 
> So what exactly is it intrinsic to this art and not justva function of training and objective that makes one superior to the other?


I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.

 If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.

Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race. If you have fallen out of your boat and decided to breast stroke home you will probably die.

The idea that somone does breast strok and is slower and crapper than everybody else is not the fault of the training or the individual. It is because he is doing brea


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.
> 
> If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.
> 
> Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race. If you have fallen out of your boat and decided to breast stroke home you will probably die.
> 
> The idea that somone does breast strok and is slower and crapper than everybody else is not the fault of the training or the individual. It is because he is doing breast stroke.
> 
> Not all systems are created equal.



All of which I agree with except that in terms of fighting arts I am yet to be convinced that for the mechanical inefficiencies I've seen I do not believe they are going to be the deciding factor in 99 out of 100 fights. How you train is a much much bigger deal.

This thread about Tkd lists a bunch of "flaws" which, if they exist at all, are exclusively training related. The vast majority of the complaints against any given art are training related and training can be changed.

A martial art is it's principles precisely because you can adapt a principle to a given situation. 

Find an art with unadaptable principles and I'll concede it's a crappy martial art.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> ¨
> No. I know that forms are only intended for the beginner and intermediate students. When at an advanced level, the practitioner moves freely. That does not however negate the fact that high quality boxing defence is lacking in TKD.



Completely untrue. After 45 years I still find benefit to practicing forms. If I ever decide I have nothing further to learn from forms, it's probably time for me to retire.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> ¨
> No. I know that forms are only intended for the beginner and intermediate students. When at an advanced level, the practitioner moves freely. That does not however negate the fact that high quality boxing defence is lacking in TKD.



See this is another case of you misquoting some idea you read in some forum as if it's God's law. The roots of your impressions are so transparently not any kind of personal development or training. Your cup truly does runneth over.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.
> 
> If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.



And here is the crux of the issue. You want to be the arbiter of what is a "dumb method" despite having no valid way to test any of it.


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> I dont understand how you dont get such a simple principle.
> 
> If you train a dumb method. And this is any dumb method for any task you are far less likely to achieve that task than if you train a sensible method.



And here is the crux of the issue. You want to be the arbiter of what is a "dumb method" despite having no valid way to test any of it.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Completely untrue. After 45 years I still find benefit to practicing forms. If I ever decide I have nothing further to learn from forms, it's probably time for me to retire.



I'm sure you do, but this was about how forms relate to sparring in a *direct* way, not indirect. They were never intended to be taken literally. It's a bit like teaching certain concepts by exaggeration. It is no different from how boxers teach beginners, and pros later abandon some of those principles because they were meant to teach the student basic things.


----------



## Axiom

And let's not forget that forms were never intended to be applied against trained fighters either. Anko Itosu (I believe it was)  said as much. This makes very much sense from how they are choreographed.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> Breast stroke is for example a dumb method for swimming. If you were in a race and you did breast stroke you are probably going to loose that race.


Unless you happen to be in a race where breast stroke is the method chosen for the race.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> In the case of Taekwondo as a system. The system is fine; the practitioner is lacking. You might want to not put words in my mouth.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



You are really not getting what a circular argument is are you?

Look I am right. If you think I am wrong you don't understand my point.


----------



## drop bear

RTKDCMB said:


> Unless you happen to be in a race where breast stroke is the method chosen for the race.



Correct. But still doesn't change my point. I then can't do freestyle and achieve a better result and all systems still are not equal.


----------



## Tez3

GOOD GRIEF.


----------



## drop bear

DaveB said:


> And here is the crux of the issue. You want to be the arbiter of what is a "dumb method" despite having no valid way to test any of it.



Not being able to test it makes it dumb. 

Bear in mind you also want to be the arbiter of what is dumb and you have no method. Except personal preference.


----------



## DaveB

Axiom said:


> And let's not forget that forms were never intended to be applied against trained fighters either. Anko Itosu (I believe it was)  said as much. This makes very much sense from how they are choreographed.


No he didn't.


----------



## Tez3

I can't believe this is still going on.

Time to use this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gnarlie said:


> If you are good, it's because you understand and can apply the system. If you are bad, it's because you don't. It's to do with you, not the system. The system is just a tool.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I'd add one condition to that: Assuming the system works well in the context in question. No matter how good someone is at Judo, it's a horrible fit for a boxing match. Some systems fail to thrive (based on current evidence) under less extreme examples. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is bad - you might just need a different system for that context.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> you might just need a different system for that context.


Or you may need to modify your system to make it work. For example, for a Judo guy to compete in wrestling, he will need to remove dependency on his Judo jacket.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> You are really not getting what a circular argument is are you?
> 
> Look I am right. If you think I am wrong you don't understand my point.


Then communicate your point better. As far as I can see, your point and my point have very little in common.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> You are really not getting what a circular argument is are you?
> 
> Look I am right. If you think I am wrong you don't understand my point.


That is only a circular argument if he's wrong.


----------



## RTKDCMB

drop bear said:


> I then can't do freestyle and achieve a better result and all systems still are not equal.


Kinda like when I can't use those 'too deadly for competition street moves' in a competition.


----------



## Axiom

RTKDCMB said:


> That is only a circular argument if he's wrong.



It's a circular argument in its present state since he doesn't present any arguments to support his viewpoint. He just states that the practitioner is at fault like gospel. But anyway, I won't bother anymore with him.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> It's a circular argument in its present state since he doesn't present any arguments to support his viewpoint. He just states that the practitioner is at fault like gospel. But anyway, I won't bother anymore with him.


Good. Come back when you understand your art better.

There is no need to provide evidence when the information is available for you to find for yourself. Just....shut up and train, and you will find out.

Trying to constantly second guess your instructor, or thinking that you know better with your 4 years than he does with his lifetime experience, is only going to prevent you from understanding your art. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> It's a circular argument in its present state since he doesn't present any arguments to support his viewpoint. He just states that the practitioner is at fault like gospel. But anyway, I won't bother anymore with him.



Mr Pot? Mr Pot? There's a Mr Kettle on the phone for you...


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> I'd add one condition to that: Assuming the system works well in the context in question. No matter how good someone is at Judo, it's a horrible fit for a boxing match. Some systems fail to thrive (based on current evidence) under less extreme examples. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is bad - you might just need a different system for that context.



Not applicable in this case since the rules haven't been changed in anyway (facing someone who can box)  .


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> I can't believe this is still going on.
> 
> Time to use this.
> 
> View attachment 21019


The troll list grows longer. Laplace_Demon. Prototype. Possibly Fuhrer Drumpf too. He gives himself away by his behaviour and terrible spelling every time.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveB

drop bear said:


> Not being able to test it makes it dumb.
> 
> Bear in mind you also want to be the arbiter of what is dumb and you have no method. Except personal preference.



Except I don't. I have my opinions but I'm not intent on convincing anyone of my preferences.

The points I argue against you are just logic.
You can't blame a group of concepts (ie a fighting art) for winning or losing fights if the foundation on which those concepts sit are common to all other fighting arts (ie punch kick dodge block).

The big problem that a TMA like TKD has is that it was not constructed on an understanding of how to use those core skills for anything other than emergency defence. Most karate styles are the same.

Fight science in more modern arts is usually developed through sport, so is limited to the realism of the sport format. 

But that limit is not absolute. Nothing stops a karateka or Taekwondoin from developing their understanding independent of the status quo. 

In karate that development came through kata study. In Taekwondo there are military branches that have been studying combat for decades, but outside of that, instructors go other places to train and find ways to reinterpret their core technique. Not because they need to take anything out of other arts but because different training reveals different understanding. 

When I go to Muay Thai classes I learn about Muay thai, but I practice karate as it is my base. Same was true when I did Tkd. The only time I'm not doing karate is when I'm competing or if in sparring I am specifically trying to use the new art. Aside from that it's all just different ways to train.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> It's a circular argument in its present state since he doesn't present any arguments to support his viewpoint. He just states that the practitioner is at fault like gospel. But anyway, I won't bother anymore with him.


That's not what a circular argument is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Not applicable in this case since the rules haven't been changed in anyway (facing someone who can box)  .


Actually, quite applicable to the comment I replied to, which was not directly aligned with your OP, nor with the question of boxing, nor with any of the other side-stepping tracks you've taken on your wandering attempts to be right about something.


----------



## elder999

Axiom said:


> It's a circular argument in its present state since he doesn't present any arguments to support his viewpoint. He just states that the practitioner is at fault like gospel. But anyway, I won't bother anymore with him)


I swear,I just got up and saw this and thought you were speaking in the third person....


----------



## Archtkd

Gnarlie said:


> The troll list grows longer. Laplace_Demon. Prototype. Possibly Fuhrer Drumpf too. He gives himself away by his behaviour and terrible spelling every time.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


And folks keeping getting suckered all the time.


----------



## Gnarlie

Archtkd said:


> And folks keeping getting suckered all the time.


Yep. Ban hammer time. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Martial D

Some users elicit fantastic, informative conversation both by what they bring in terms of knowledge and the way they interact with others bringing it out of them too. Threads users like this bring to the table are always a pleasure to read.

....And then there is this 43 page abortion.

/Rumination


----------



## Axiom

The only revelation my ***-kicking by a guy who can kick realistically and box taught me is that a good chin something your born with, and not something  that is conditioned. I have been knocked down twice, roundhouse kicked in the jaw. Punched in the face HARD... Doesn't even faze me.

I wish to take this opportunity in advance though to thank my 9th dan instructor before I'm in the hospital, for the good fighting abilities 4 years of training instilled in me against competent kickboxers.

Now I'm off to get my head boxed in again.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Gnarlie said:


> Ban hammer


Wasn't he a professional wrestler?


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Then communicate your point better. As far as I can see, your point and my point have very little in common.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



You will know when you have understood my point when you have conceded that I am right.


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> You will know when you have understood my point when you have conceded that I am right.



Hey, you remind me of Gnarlie!  I will unlock the mysteries of TKD boxing defence in due time. The key is to get absolutely humiliated, then figure the guy out, only to spar a new dude with a new style of boxing, and be humiliated all over again.


----------



## Tez3

SERIOUS SUGGESTION.



*We all just stop posting on this thread now.
*


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> SERIOUS SUGGESTION.
> 
> 
> 
> *We all just stop posting on this thread now.*



How about now.
















Now?


----------



## drop bear

Martial D said:


> Some users elicit fantastic, informative conversation both by what they bring in terms of knowledge and the way they interact with others bringing it out of them too. Threads users like this bring to the table are always a pleasure to read.
> 
> ....And then there is this 43 page abortion.
> 
> /Rumination



We get punched in the head for a hobby.

What were you expecting. Shakespeare?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> We get punched in the head for a hobby.
> 
> What were you expecting. Shakespeare?


"But fast! What light - BAM!"


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> You will know when you have understood my point when you have conceded that I am right.



I've got to remember that line next time my wife argues with me.  I'll also have to remember to wear a cup when I say it


----------



## Axiom

drop bear said:


> We get punched in the head for a hobby.
> 
> What were you expecting. Shakespeare?



I fell in love with full contact, and gained a greater appreciation for why people get so hooked by Boxing,  Kickboxing, MMA, Kyokushin, etc.


----------



## Martial D

Axiom said:


> I fell in love with full contact, and gained a greater appreciation for why people get so hooked by Boxing,  Kickboxing, MMA, Kyokushin, etc.


Yes, because it's REAL. 

Now before anyone freaks out, I'm not hating on people that like to practice their moves on cooperative human dummies and stick to that, I'm just saying that there's a certain visceral need for competition that is sated by, well, competition, as well as a satisfaction that comes from knowing that throw or strike or sub you've been practicing forever WILL work when you need it, rather than just hoping it will.


----------



## Buka

I used to be a school crossing guard at a local elementary school.

This thread has given me such a sweet sense of deja vu.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I used to be a school crossing guard at a local elementary school.
> 
> This thread has given me such a sweet sense of deja vu.


By the way, I dig the new avatar!


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> By the way, I dig the new avatar!


Beat me to it.


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> By the way, I dig the new avatar!





JR 137 said:


> Beat me to it.



Barney Fife is my dog, bros. We went to the same Mayjo. [Mayberry Dojo]


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Barney Fife is my dog, bros. We went to the same Mayjo. [Mayberry Dojo]


I've felt like that sometimes.


----------



## MA_Student

Has the op been suspended or something? When I click on his account there's an error message


----------



## Tony Dismukes

MA_Student said:


> Has the op been suspended or something? When I click on his account there's an error message


Yep. When you try to access the profile and get an error, that means the account has been suspended.


----------



## JR 137

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. When you try to access the profile and get an error, that means the account has been suspended.


That sucks.  Now where am I going to get free entertainment like this?

I'm sure someone will take his place shortly.  There's always someone new who pops up out of nowhere and makes us shake our heads in disbelief.  I guess I'll just have to wait a few days.

Remember that kehcorps guy who kept asking about different styles for months and trashed every one of them because he saw something stupid on YouTube?  I wonder if he ever found that ultimate system he was out to find.  Maybe he's not posting anymore because he found his MA nirvana.  

I miss people like that.  Without some craziness, it can get dull around here.


----------



## Archtkd

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. When you try to access the profile and get an error, that means the account has been suspended.


He/she will resurface with another bogus name and thread, hopping from one subject to another anytime anyone asks him/her meaningful questions about his posts. .


----------



## TrueJim

If you guys like, I could take his place. "General Choi's momma dressed him funny! A ridgehand is basically like a head butt, only with less head and more butt! Octagons are for sissy-boys...real mean fight in decagons! I saw a video once of a guy who won a street fight and he trained primarily in jump rope...jump rope is gonna rule the MMA. Some guy insulted my girl at the club while I was drunk so I tried to roundhouse him and it failed -- I BLAME TAEKWONDO!!!!"


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

TrueJim said:


> "General Choi's momma dressed him funny! A ridgehand is basically like a head butt, only with less head and more butt! Octagons are for sissy-boys...real mean fight in decagons! I saw a video once of a guy who won a street fight and he trained primarily in jump rope...jump rope is gonna rule the MMA. Some guy insulted my girl at the club while I was drunk so I tried to roundhouse him and it failed -- I BLAME TAEKWONDO!!!!"


Axiom, you can't just take over someone elses account because you got banned. You may be claiming to be truejim but I know the truth...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> If you guys like, I could take his place. "General Choi's momma dressed him funny! A ridgehand is basically like a head butt, only with less head and more butt! Octagons are for sissy-boys...real mean fight in decagons! I saw a video once of a guy who won a street fight and he trained primarily in jump rope...jump rope is gonna rule the MMA. Some guy insulted my girl at the club while I was drunk so I tried to roundhouse him and it failed -- I BLAME TAEKWONDO!!!!"


Just for the record, decagons are far to close to circles, and octagons look too much like hexagons (which we all know are overachieving sqares). The only legitimate fighting shape is a nonagon. Here are some reasons why:

Nonagon - Wikipedia


----------



## Gnarlie

gpseymour said:


> Just for the record, decagons are far to close to circles, and octagons look too much like hexagons (which we all know are overachieving sqares). The only legitimate fighting shape is a nonagon. Here are some reasons why:
> 
> Nonagon - Wikipedia


I think we should just fight in a Zorb

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gnarlie said:


> I think we should just fight in a Zorb
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Man, even us aikido folks will have to start working more on our circles!

Gives this book a whole new perspective: _Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere_


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gnarlie said:


> I think we should just fight in a Zorb


Seems like the perfect format to demonstrate the superiority of BJJ. No need to close the distance and force a takedown. No need to worry about evasive strikers. I like it!


----------



## Gnarlie

Tony Dismukes said:


> Seems like the perfect format to demonstrate the superiority of BJJ. No need to close the distance and force a takedown. No need to worry about evasive strikers. I like it!


I demand separate Zorbs to maintain kicking distance! 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Seems like the perfect format to demonstrate the superiority of BJJ. No need to close the distance and force a takedown. No need to worry about evasive strikers. I like it!


And any surface can quickly become "the ground". You could base out above you, and there would be a whole new area of "sweeps" to work on.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> And any surface can quickly become "the ground". You could base out above you, and there would be a whole new area of "sweeps" to work on.


Yes, but any time your in mount, if the weight shifts even suddenly you're now in open guard. Keeping a good position would be impossible.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> Yes, but any time your in mount, if the weight shifts even suddenly you're now in open guard. Keeping a good position would be impossible.


I see you're already training the new sweeps.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

My question is, would my mat burns get worse, or would the zorb save me from them?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> My question is, would my mat burns get worse, or would the zorb save me from them?


Clearly, both.


----------



## Archtkd

TrueJim said:


> If you guys like, I could take his place. "General Choi's momma dressed him funny! A ridgehand is basically like a head butt, only with less head and more butt! Octagons are for sissy-boys...real mean fight in decagons! I saw a video once of a guy who won a street fight and he trained primarily in jump rope...jump rope is gonna rule the MMA. Some guy insulted my girl at the club while I was drunk so I tried to roundhouse him and it failed -- I BLAME TAEKWONDO!!!!"


No Korean martial art has elements to deal with the Kenyan charging rhino kick. The footwork mandated by controlling bodies of all Korean martial arts is insufficient to deter an attacking Kenyan trained in the pre-historic arts unearthed by Dr. Leakey.


----------



## Balrog

Axiom said:


> You say that, but If I had a nickle for every dejected, bitter TKD black belt, I would be a millionare by now..


Wow.  I've been training in TKD for 33 years, have yet to see one.


----------

