# Takedown vs Throw



## Jared Traveler (Nov 9, 2022)

In simple terms, I believe the difference between a takedown vs a throw is airtime and/or ballistic force. 

Takedowns work great to "take the fight to the ground" but to really do damage and use the earth as a weapon, you have to learn throws.

I don't think this is revolutionary insite, but I think a lot of people still don't think about the differences. 

Also this is where crash pads become very important. Without them students can learn bad behavior as they try to take the sting out of the fall when throwing other students, buy soft balling the throw.

Originally when I took Hapkido we learned to pull up on the gi once the person we were throwing landed. The problem is I did this in a live event "training scars" when I throw a suspect who had just tried to hit me.

Then when I began taking judo we used crash pads. So we could learn to throw at full force.


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## wab25 (Nov 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Originally when I took Hapkido we learned to pull up on the gi once the person we were throwing landed. The problem is I did this in a live event "training scars" when I throw a suspect who had just tried to hit me.


Not sure I understand what the problem is here? Throwing full force and pulling up on the arm are two separate things. The fact that you could maintain control of the arm and pull up on it, with no gi, in a live event is a good thing, I would think.


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## Holmejr (Nov 9, 2022)

Agreed.
For sure in a law enforcement situation if a perp is going to fight back, go for your weopon, etc. all bets are of until compliance. I am not law enforcement. In FMA (combat judo) we try hard NOT to go down with the opponent as we assume there is a weapon involved. I’ve been in a one situations were a clothesline takedown with control of arm was all that was need to stop the altercation. The other was a hammer lock type take down with the same results. Landings were hard enough but not heavy injury hard. If one can control the arm after throw or takedown it can only be a benefit.


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## drop bear (Nov 9, 2022)

In MMA there is a tendency to avoid ballistic throws because of the effort required to pull one off. And that is weighed up whether it is worth it. When you can generally sit on them and punch them after.

People definitely still do it. But there is an argument against it. 

I have done Ballistic throws on the street and dropped guys on rheir head and spent a few tense seconds wondering if I had killed them or not. Which for me is generally a not the result I am trying to achieve.

If there is a weapon involved. I want to go down with the guy to (situational) so I can use the advantage of gravity to disarm him. Or beat on him more efficiently.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> In simple terms, I believe the difference between a takedown vs a throw is airtime and/or ballistic force.
> 
> Takedowns work great to "take the fight to the ground" but to really do damage and use the earth as a weapon, you have to learn throws.
> 
> ...


Can you define the difference between these terms, as you're using them here?

I ask because the way I normally use them doesn't fit this post (takedown = you go down with them, throw = they fall from standing or higher - the terms can overlap).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 9, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Can you define the difference between these terms, as you're using them here?
> 
> I ask because the way I normally use them doesn't fit this post (takedown = you go down with them, throw = they fall from standing or higher - the terms can overlap).


Will you call this throw, or take down?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 9, 2022)

drop bear said:


> In MMA there is a tendency to avoid ballistic throws because of the effort required to pull one off. And that is weighed up whether it is worth it. When you can generally sit on them and punch them after.
> 
> People definitely still do it. But there is an argument against it.
> 
> ...


Judo isn't easy.

If it was everyone would do it


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Will you call this throw, or take down?


I would call that a takedown. I'm not vested in the terms, I'm more interested in distinguishing the difference in application. A takedown (or we might say, the act of simply tripping, pushing or moving someone to the ground) verse a throw (taking them down with a lot of force, typically involving air time, where both feet leave the ground, dropping from a height, usually with dynamic speed and power applied, sometimes but not always landing on top of them after the impact).


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2022)

Why are we discussing the difference in application? 

My personal takedown theory is I try about 10 different throws one after the other until something works. And some may be ballistic and some may not.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2022)

As a side note. I have tried ballistic throws while trying to takedown a guy as a team. And it generally doesn't work because the other guys are holding him down. 

The rugby method is the best thought out. Where one guy stops his momentum and the other binds his legs.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 10, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Why are we discussing the difference in application?
> 
> My personal takedown theory is I try about 10 different throws one after the other until something works. And some may be ballistic and some may not.


Fair point, sometimes you never end up good at applying the throws you want to be good at. Sometimes they seem to chose you. With that said, for me personally Uchi Mata was my dojo go to throw. But on the street I very often used a close line version of Osoto Otoshi(something I could never pull off in competition).


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Fair point, sometimes you never end up good at applying the throws you want to be good at. Sometimes they seem to chose you. With that said, for me personally Uchi Mata was my dojo go to throw. But on the street I very often used a close line version of Osoto Otoshi(something I could never pull off in competition).



That is because people in competition can fight.

Duck under head arm triangle for me.


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## windwalker099 (Nov 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Judo isn't easy.
> 
> If it was everyone would do it


yep 🤔


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 10, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> yep 🤔


Definitely a ballistic throw!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> yep 🤔


Why don't we see throw like this in UFC that a throw can knock opponent out?

May be UFC guys no longer train throw like this.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 10, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> yep 🤔


Benny's mom was a wrestler and he started learning throws when he was 5.

Born for it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Benny's mom was a wrestler and he started learning throws when he was 5.
> 
> Born for it.


It takes time to develop a good throw. May be UFC guys prefer to spent time to develop something else instead of to develop a good throw.

I have a feeling that MMA may hurt the throwing art in the long run. Why should one train throw if he can just drag his opponent down and then apply his ground game?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't we see throw like this in UFC that a throw can knock opponent out?
> 
> May be UFC guys no longer train throw like this.


The happen occasionally but I think pure BJJ and Judo have disadvantages in MMA unless they are trained in a true MMA environment.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It takes time to develop a good throw. May be UFC guys prefer to spent time to develop something else instead of to develop a good throw.
> 
> I have a feeling that MMA may hurt the throwing art in the long run. Why should one train throw if he can just drag his opponent down and then apply his ground game?


Can't remember where but I once saw an attempt at ippon seionage turn into an monkey take the back roll and immediate RNC.

It's just something people watch out for in MMA, you're better off sweeping IMHO


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The happen occasionally but I think pure BJJ and Judo have disadvantages in MMA unless they are trained in a true MMA environment.


The only difference between MMA and kickboxing, or Sanda is the ground game. If a kickboxer (such as Benny Urquidez) can use a throw to knock out his opponent, the MMA guys should be able to do the same.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Can't remember where but I once saw an attempt at ippon seionage turn into an monkey take the back roll and immediate RNC.
> 
> It's just something people watch out for in MMA, you're better off sweeping IMHO


When Benny Urquidez threw his opponent, Benny

- wrapped his opponent's leading arm.
- under hooked his opponent's back arm.

Since his opponent had no free arms, it was difficult for his opponent to counter Benny's hip throw.

If you train the throwing art properly, the chance that your opponent may counter you can be decreased.

To have the ability to be able to break apart your opponent's control (such as arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, ...) quickly do require some extra training.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The only difference between MMA and kickboxing, or Sanda is the ground game. If a kickboxer (such as Benny Urquidez) can use a throw to knock out his opponent, the MMA guys should be able to do the same.


I'm still waiting for another double suplex.  The first time I saw Dan Severn do it I lost my mind.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When Benny Urquidez threw his opponent, Benny
> 
> - wrapped his opponent's leading arm.
> - under hooked his opponent's back arm.
> ...


I'm sure that spinning back kick took a lot out of his opponents ability to counter too.

It winds me just watching it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't we see throw like this in UFC that a throw can knock opponent out?
> 
> May be UFC guys no longer train throw like this.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> It takes time to develop a good throw. May be UFC guys prefer to spent time to develop something else instead of to develop a good throw.
> 
> I have a feeling that MMA may hurt the throwing art in the long run. Why should one train throw if he can just drag his opponent down and then apply his ground game?





Kung Fu Wang said:


> The only difference between MMA and kickboxing, or Sanda is the ground game. If a kickboxer (such as Benny Urquidez) can use a throw to knock out his opponent, the MMA guys should be able to do the same.


It does happen in MMA. It's just hard to make it happen reliably against skilled, tough grapplers who know how to take a fall.

Here's a throw which not only knocked out the loser, but forced him to retire from MMA with permanent injuries.





Here are a bunch of big throws, most of which didn't cause immediate knockouts because the fighters being thrown were really tough and knew how to take a fall. (Also the octagon floor, while not exactly soft, is a lot more forgiving than concrete.)





Here are some more throws which did produce knockouts:


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Will you call this throw, or take down?


I'd call that a throw, though that's only by my own normal usage, and doesn't help us answer the question in the OP.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 10, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I would call that a takedown. I'm not vested in the terms, I'm more interested in distinguishing the difference in application. A takedown (or we might say, the act of simply tripping, pushing or moving someone to the ground) verse a throw (taking them down with a lot of force, typically involving air time, where both feet leave the ground, dropping from a height, usually with dynamic speed and power applied, sometimes but not always landing on top of them after the impact).


That's why I wanted to know your distinction. I can take several things you'd call takedowns and make them fit your definition of throw, simply by doing them harder, bigger, or with an adjustment. Take my leg sweep (Judo's osoto gari, I think - a different thing from what many refer to as "leg sweep"). Do it slowly, and it's a takedown by this definition (fall would be quite similar to KFW's video). Move at speed and with good timing, and both feet will leave the ground - especially if you take both their legs.

So, my answer, given we're using that distinction, is that it depends on the situation. I could see instances where I'm only concerned with making them fall down. I can also see instances where I'd want them to hit HARD (perhaps even deciding to land on top of them, to add force).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> So, my answer, given we're using that distinction, is that it depends on the situation. I could see instances where I'm only concerned with making them fall down. I can also see instances where I'd want them to hit HARD (perhaps even deciding to land on top of them, to add force).


I think the opposite of this, which is why I agree with your definition, oddly enough. In my mind, when I'm throwing/taking down someone (outside of training), how hard I do it/how much lift they get doesn't matter to me. What does, is whether or not I fall with them, and there are times that I both do and don't. 

So I like to separate by "I go down with them" (takedown) and "I stay upright when they fall (if done successfully)" (throw). There are times I want to stay upright, and for those I'd go with throw. And times I don't care too much, and then I'd go takedown since those are higher % typically.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 11, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think the opposite of this, which is why I agree with your definition, oddly enough. In my mind, when I'm throwing/taking down someone (outside of training), how hard I do it/how much lift they get doesn't matter to me. What does, is whether or not I fall with them, and there are times that I both do and don't.
> 
> So I like to separate by "I go down with them" (takedown) and "I stay upright when they fall (if done successfully)" (throw). There are times I want to stay upright, and for those I'd go with throw. And times I don't care too much, and then I'd go takedown since those are higher % typically.


That's definitely part of the equation! Part of what folks should know about their throws is which ones can be easily converted into "takedowns" by the other guy. It's pretty easy to do with our leg sweep (grab some gi and hold on, and the guy standing on one leg will probably have to come with you). So when you don't want to follow them down, you either don't use those techniques, or you have to have more control of the other guy (most likley, of his arms).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That's definitely part of the equation! Part of what folks should know about their throws is which ones can be easily converted into "takedowns" by the other guy. It's pretty easy to do with our leg sweep (grab some gi and hold on, and the guy standing on one leg will probably have to come with you). So when you don't want to follow them down, you either don't use those techniques, or you have to have more control of the other guy (most likley, of his arms).


For leg sweep in particular, it also matters what you're wearing, what they're wearing and their position. 

If we're both wearing jackets, while theoretically, a leg sweep is a throw that will sweep them up and knock them out, it's very easy for them to grab my jacket and take me down with them. If I'm wearing a tee that's less likely, same if I disorient them with a hook punch first, or do a very quick instep to surprise them. A tai otoshi, on the other hand, will end up with a throw almost no matter what-I'm less likely to succeed, but they are much less likely to take me down with them when I perform it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 11, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> it's very easy for them to grab my jacket and take me down with them.


This is why not to allow your opponent to have free arms is important.

Here is an example. You can "tuck" one of your opponent's arm under his other arm when you take him down.


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