# The step thru punch in use.



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Sep 24, 2005)

http://media5.big-boys .com/content/asswhoop.wmv

Just a little reminder that people do use the step thru, this is a prime example of it.  

Copy and paste the link and then move the .com back one space and you're watching it.

Hmm, I wonder if AK has anything to deal with this LOL?

DarK LorD


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## Rich_Hale (Sep 24, 2005)

Dear Lord,

I would write more, but I have to go practice all my self defense techniques, that defend against a right step through punch.

GREAT CLIP!


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## dubljay (Sep 24, 2005)

Given the forward momentum of the step through punch here which technique, or family of techniques would be best applied to it? Should you try and stop him dead in his tracks with something like 5 Swords, where you move into him, or should you use something like Destructive Kneel, where you move off the line of attack?


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## MJS (Sep 24, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Given the forward momentum of the step through punch here which technique, or family of techniques would be best applied to it?  Should you try and stop him dead in his tracks with somthing like 5 Swords, where you move into him, or should you use something like Destructive Kneel, where you move off the line of attack?



Me personally, if I had the choice, I'd prefer to move off the line of attack.  Thundering Hammers, Shield and Mace, etc. are ones that come to mind.  

Mike


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## dubljay (Sep 24, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Me personally, if I had the choice, I'd prefer to move off the line of attack. Thundering Hammers, Shield and Mace, etc. are ones that come to mind.
> 
> Mike


 In an open area like that on the sidewalk I think that would be the best way to go.  The best way to avoid getting hit (and knocked out) is simply not be there.  What if you were in a more confined space, like in a club or bar?  Would it be better to jam them up by stepping into them?


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## MJS (Sep 24, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> What if you were in a more confined space, like in a club or bar?  Would it be better to jam them up by stepping into them?



Considering the potential for the lack of room, I'd say moving into them would work.  Moving in with a strike, such as in Thrusting Wedge, would be an idea.  From there, working closer range strikes, ie: knees, elbows, stomps, etc. would be effective.  

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Sep 24, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Given the forward momentum of the step through punch here which technique, or family of techniques would be best applied to it? Should you try and stop him dead in his tracks with something like 5 Swords, where you move into him, or should you use something like Destructive Kneel, where you move off the line of attack?


Given the depth, I'd say Calming the Storm or a modified version of Triggered Salute to capture the centerline.   Environment and Target Availability are what dictate a tech, that doesn't mean it has to be an ideal attack for an Ideal tech.

DarK LorD


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## dubljay (Sep 24, 2005)

I definately agree that the ideal phase of just about any technique would not be the best choice.  I think the most critical part of any technique is the entry into it.  I happen to think that getting off the line of attack would be the better course of action for myself, as I am a bit of a light weight.  Do you feel that if you stay on line, trying to capture his centerline you get more effectiveness out of his own forward momentum?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Sep 24, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> I definately agree that the ideal phase of just about any technique would not be the best choice. I think the most critical part of any technique is the entry into it. I happen to think that getting off the line of attack would be the better course of action for myself, as I am a bit of a light weight. Do you feel that if you stay on line, trying to capture his centerline you get more effectiveness out of his own forward momentum?


If you're suggesting moving offline to 11, bad idea, it's a hook not a straight, unless you're gonna duck and do a version of Leaping Crane.     I'm a pretty big boy @ 6' and 205# so I can get away with a lot LOL.   With  him coming in the way he did, WOW, talk about borrowed force LOL, so yes is the answer to your question.   Hell, I'd even think about doing Bow of Compulsion with the first elbow going up under the chin to capitalize on his directional harmony.

DarK LorD


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## dubljay (Sep 24, 2005)

Nicely said sir.  Yes, stepping off towards 11 would be bad, running square into the punch, and I have never really been a fan of trying to duck under a punch, I've tried it sparring and had my bell rung a couple times.  If I were to move off line it would be back towards 4:30, and using a kick, even if I didn't move off line I would definately drop back, going head to head like that with a bigger guys usually ends up bad for me.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Sep 24, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Nicely said sir. Yes, stepping off towards 11 would be bad, running square into the punch, and I have never really been a fan of trying to duck under a punch, I've tried it sparring and had my bell rung a couple times. If I were to move off line it would be back towards 4:30, and using a kick, even if I didn't move off line I would definately drop back, going head to head like that with a bigger guys usually ends up bad for me.


Ok, let's look at your options dropping back to 4, right or left foot back?  Dropping back with the right foot leaves you the left leg to kick with (probably not a good idea if you want to use strong side), it also gives him the ability to continue his action with the left hand or leg, that's not really moving to a zone of sanctuary leaving his dimensions intact (HWD).   While stepping to 730 with the left will at least get you into a zone of sanctuary and obscurity you may still get hit with the hook because of the lunge.   Moving up centerline is really the best option to capture dimensions.

DarK LorD


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## kenpoworks (Sep 24, 2005)

I got caught with a dig just like that when I was 13 it fractured my jaw:whip: , I started Jnr boxing when I could talk again. That whole scene will be played out the world over most weekends thanks to testosterone, pride, pecking order, proving manhood etc.
Neither one of them could fight by our lofty standards, but it wouldn't make them any less dangerous in the right/wrong situation.
Oh Yeh!, Iagree with most of what DKL says and quite liked the idea of "capturing dimensions"..thanks for bringing back a painful memory.
Richie


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## MJS (Sep 25, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> If you're suggesting moving offline to 11, bad idea, it's a hook not a straight, unless you're gonna duck and do a version of Leaping Crane.     I'm a pretty big boy @ 6' and 205# so I can get away with a lot LOL.   With  him coming in the way he did, WOW, talk about borrowed force LOL, so yes is the answer to your question.   Hell, I'd even think about doing Bow of Compulsion with the first elbow going up under the chin to capitalize on his directional harmony.
> 
> DarK LorD



Yup, now that I watched it a 2nd time, it was a hook.  Wasn't your typical big wind up haymaker, but nevertheless, still consisted of a step thru and hooking motion.  That being said, moving up rather than on an angle is better.

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Sep 25, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yup, now that I watched it a 2nd time, it was a hook. Wasn't your typical big wind up haymaker, but nevertheless, still consisted of a step thru and hooking motion. That being said, moving up rather than on an angle is better.
> 
> Mike


Looking at it on video is the easy part, at least for us LOL.  We can speculate what we'd do till the cows come running home, but the reality is, do we really know what we'd do when the feces hits the rotary oscillator  LOL.   Running spontaneity drills with these types of attacks is the only training we can do to hopefully get it right when it does.    Learning to discern motion, before and during the attack is crucial.

DarK LorD


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## Bode (Sep 25, 2005)

I wouldn't even call that a "step through punch." The attacker was walking, his right lead foot landed while his hand was still at his side. Then he lunged using his rear foot to propel him and his hand travelled upward in a shallow roundhouse.  He did his best to obscure the attack and make it look as if he just wanted to get in a pushing match. Very typical in street fighting. Disguise the intent until in range then wham... 

 Discussing techniques and which ones apply here, to me, seems a bit premature. What about recognizing the attack before it happens? Preparing for the attack in a way that doesn't put you at a disadvantage? Both of which the victim failed to do. It's great that Kenpo has responses for every attack likely to happen, but if we can't discuss what leads up to an attack and prepare for it, then all the responses in the world are likely moot. 

 IF the victim had recognized this guy meant business then he would have assumed a posture that indicated he ALSO was ready to throwdown. Then the attacker might have though twice and stayed out of range.... but whatever, the victim was a punk who was running his mouth off anyway.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Sep 25, 2005)

Bode said:
			
		

> Discussing techniques and which ones apply here, to me, seems a bit premature. What about recognizing the attack before it happens? Preparing for the attack in a way that doesn't put you at a disadvantage? Both of which the victim failed to do. It's great that Kenpo has responses for every attack likely to happen, but if we can't discuss what leads up to an attack and prepare for it, then all the responses in the world are likely moot.
> 
> IF the victim had recognized this guy meant business then he would have assumed a posture that indicated he ALSO was ready to throwdown. Then the attacker might have though twice and stayed out of range.... but whatever, the victim was a punk who was running his mouth off anyway.


I think that's what I just said above in not so many words, yes?

DarK LorD


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## Bode (Sep 26, 2005)

> I think that's what I just said above in not so many words, yes?


 Looking back, yes. 



> We can speculate what we'd do till the cows come running home, but the reality is, do we really know what we'd do when the feces hits the rotary oscillator LOL.


 Couldn't agree more. This is why stress training, as you are fond of, is so important. 



> Learning to discern motion, before and during the attack is crucial.


 I agree, but I think the term "motion" here requires more specific vocabulary. Motion is general and does not include the psychology of the confrontation. As you say, the understanding of motion BEFORE the attack is crucial. Without it you might never recognize the person who's ready to attack vs the person who just wants to punk you... then attack. But an attack does not necessarily involve motion. It may be psychological through verbal taunting or intimidation. These are two distinct areas of confrontation. Physical and Mental.
 So, the better question to ask is, how does one train to recognize the attack and thus prevent it? How does one not be intimidated? And how do you diffuse the situation before it get's to the point of violence? 
 This video is the perfect example and I for one wish there were more of them.


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## MJS (Sep 26, 2005)

Bode said:
			
		

> Looking back, yes.
> 
> Couldn't agree more. This is why stress training, as you are fond of, is so important.
> 
> I agree, but I think the term "motion" here requires more specific vocabulary. Motion is general and does not include the psychology of the confrontation. As you say, the understanding of motion BEFORE the attack is crucial. Without it you might never recognize the person who's ready to attack vs the person who just wants to punk you... then attack. But an attack does not necessarily involve motion. It may be psychological through verbal taunting or intimidation. These are two distinct areas of confrontation. Physical and Mental.





> So, the better question to ask is, how does one train to recognize the attack and thus prevent it? How does one not be intimidated? And how do you diffuse the situation before it get's to the point of violence?
> This video is the perfect example and I for one wish there were more of them.



You and DKL, as well as myself in past posts have said it, and I agree 100%...running through drills, scenarios, etc., that will put you in the proper mindset, will be very helpful.  How do we defuse it?  IMO, we could start by not engaging in the verbal altercation that took place prior to the actual punch being thrown.  I've said it before and I'll say it again..ego plays a big role.  This guy was apparently too 'proud' to leave, because he stayed and continued to take part in the verbal exchange.  Once the other guy got out of the car, IMO the phase of "talking your way out" was long past.  As for recognizing what was going to happen?  I talked about this with Clyde.  This guy sees someone stop, get out of a car, and move quickly towards him.  What does he do? He stands there and gets hit.  If he didn't see that something was going to happen, he must need his eyes checked.  Start preparing for some defense.

Just my .02

Mike


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## Bode (Sep 26, 2005)

> . As for recognizing what was going to happen? I talked about this with Clyde. This guy sees someone stop, get out of a car, and move quickly towards him. What does he do? He stands there and gets hit. If he didn't see that something was going to happen, he must need his eyes checked. Start preparing for some defense.


 Yep. 
 I especially agree with the verbal taunting. That plays a big part in the realistic scenarios. Funny how the victim on the video didn't see that the attacker meant business. Seemed obvious to me. Likely he had adrenal dump and didn't know what to do. His body locked up. This to me, and I am sure you agree, is the most important aspect of training to overcome. All the techniques in the world are useless if you lock up.

 Does anyone else have other similar "street" attack videos? I had a few that all were very similar. I'll see if I can find them.


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## MJS (Sep 26, 2005)

Bode said:
			
		

> This to me, and I am sure you agree, is the most important aspect of training to overcome. All the techniques in the world are useless if you lock up.



Yes, I agree.  IMO, its important to include some aliveness during training.  If we always go through our material in a relaxed manner, no stress, etc., whats going to happen when we really need to do that tech. in order to save ourselves?

Mike


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## bayonet (Sep 26, 2005)

Guy got what he was looking for....big mouth got busted...hit first ..talk later. Good clip. Any other sites that show random acts of violence? A guy looking for a fight, like this 'banger, stands there with his hands down..notice his big mouthed friends did not do a thing!! I wonder what he was thinking when he woke up in the ER? Typical idiot...Support your local police department.


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## KenpoDave (Sep 26, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> Given the forward momentum of the step through punch here which technique, or family of techniques would be best applied to it? Should you try and stop him dead in his tracks with something like 5 Swords, where you move into him, or should you use something like Destructive Kneel, where you move off the line of attack?



Should have seen it coming.  The guy got what he deserved, but he should never have allowed the guy from the car to get that close without countering.  Personally, I think a nice kick that would have put his nuts in his nostrils would have slowed the approach...

But armchair quarterbacking won't do it.  I think this one deserves some mat time!


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2005)

bayonet said:
			
		

> Any other sites that show random acts of violence?


 There are tons of them. They show up everywhere!


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 27, 2005)

something that also cracks me up - if that guy did defend himself, we would all be sitting here ripping apart the way he did it and how we wouldve done it differently.......(hmmm, kinda reminds of guitar players fighting)


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## MJS (Sep 27, 2005)

bayonet said:
			
		

> Guy got what he was looking for....big mouth got busted...hit first ..talk later. Good clip. Any other sites that show random acts of violence? A guy looking for a fight, like this 'banger, stands there with his hands down..notice his big mouthed friends did not do a thing!! I wonder what he was thinking when he woke up in the ER? Typical idiot...Support your local police department.



Lets try to stay focused on the topic of the discussion.  The link was posted to discuss the step thru punch, and techniques best suited for this type of attack, not if this guy deserved to get hit, his big mouth, etc.

Mike


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## DavidCC (Sep 27, 2005)

What a great bunch of friends the "loser" has!  I would hope my friends would at least not let the guy stomp on my face.

In our curriculuum we have a number of technciques that might be very effective there.  #10 uses a outward block while stepping right foot to 12, and a ridge hand to the groin (for openers, it goes on from there...) Or #8, similar block with a strike to the throat... so I agree, my reaction (I hope!) would be to step forward and deliver something nasty down the middle.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Sep 27, 2005)

Just for discussion, if you see the guy coming at you in such a manner, execute a front snap kick directly to his centerline.  Why wait for him to throw the first punch.  There is nothing, including the law, that says that you have to wait for him to hit you before you can respond.  He commited an aggressive act, you were in fear for you safety as he was coming towards you, and you kicked him in the gotcha.


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## Mikael151 (Sep 28, 2005)

5-0 Kenpo said:
			
		

> Just for discussion, if you see the guy coming at you in such a manner, execute a front snap kick directly to his centerline. Why wait for him to throw the first punch. There is nothing, including the law, that says that you have to wait for him to hit you before you can respond. He commited an aggressive act, you were in fear for you safety as he was coming towards you, and you kicked him in the gotcha.


Exactly. You don't need someone to attack in order to initiate a technique.


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## bayonet (Oct 1, 2005)

Perhaps I got caught up in the moment, sorry mods. As far as techs, go I would say first and foremost don't put yourself in a position like our "tough" gangster friend, and #2, imagine if "big mouth" had a gun.....Okay back to the subject,....A version of Detour from Doom or a modified version of "Calming the Storm" as DLK stated. Wait...Both seem a little similar....????? Or for those of us that have played football, Charging Ram........flying....let me have it fellow kenpoist.....


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## Doc (Oct 1, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> something that also cracks me up - if that guy did defend himself, we would all be sitting here ripping apart the way he did it and how we wouldve done it differently.......(hmmm, kinda reminds of guitar players fighting)


You're probably right, but at least to a lesser degree than some other forums that specialize in non-constructive criticism. I consider this a teaching/learning forum with a social componant. So, how about the original question? This attack is NOT a "step through punch." In fact it is far from it. 

All productive discussions should begin from a common point of  understanding. General information, (and in this case incorrect) always produce a general or negative results. Specifics would be the most useful to those who may choose to just "listen" rather than participate in the discussion here. Those who participate may also benefit by tackling what appears to be the new question born from the original. "What actually constitutes a step-through martial arts punch?"

Once established, perhaps a discussion of its efficacy is in order first, followed by methodologies to negate its possible effects, if warranted.

Then again, what do I know!


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## DavidCC (Oct 3, 2005)

Frame by frame it's true, his left foot moves forward almost even with his right as the punch is thrown.  The punch starts with right foot forward.  SO is this suffucuent for most fo the step-through techniques to work to a satisfactory degree?  Or does this change it enough that something entirely different would be better?

Above I said I would move into him and deliver something up the middle, and I don't see anything that would make me change my mind.  I suppose if I was Steven Segal or something I would be able to throw that guy over a mountain with all of that momentum and no balance, but I'm not, so I would stick with what I could actually do... avoid that big looping haymaker and crack a rib.

However I am very interested in what people who can do more than me would do.
-DC


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## carmstrong (Oct 3, 2005)

I've long believed that it is much more natural for people to throw punches with the opposite leg forward. That feels more natural to me anyway. And look at baseball pitchers...can you imagine pitching right handed with your right leg forward? There seems to be more power or balance or something with the left leg forward.

 Obviously, in the heat of a fight, punches are probably thrown from many different orientations, but I just don't think many people (except some classical Karate guy) would choose to throw a straight right punch while stepping forward with the right leg - the way people do in technique lines. Seems more like a Karate affectation than something that most people would naturally do. 

 Maybe there's a good reason that just eludes me to create a ton of techniques for this kind of attack. Maybe it's an Ideal-Phase thing.

 So has anyone spent much time trying to adapt our right-step-through techs to address attacks from right punches with the left leg forward?

 Just something I've always wondered,

 Chris


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## Doc (Oct 3, 2005)

carmstrong said:
			
		

> I've long believed that it is much more natural for people to throw punches with the opposite leg forward. That feels more natural to me anyway. And look at baseball pitchers...can you imagine pitching right handed with your right leg forward? There seems to be more power or balance or something with the left leg forward.
> 
> Obviously, in the heat of a fight, punches are probably thrown from many different orientations, but I just don't think many people (except some classical Karate guy) would choose to throw a straight right punch while stepping forward with the right leg - the way people do in technique lines. Seems more like a Karate affectation than something that most people would naturally do.
> Chris


My research and experience suggests you are correct sir.


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 5, 2005)

Not to be a dissenting voice or anything here, but I have a back injury near the psiatic (sp) nerve on the lower left lumbar area of my back which necessitates me fighting with my right side forward if at all possible. I lose a  tremendous amount of mobility if I fight left side forward, so I compensated. I still retain quite a bit of power with the lead hand as I've developed a method of hip rotation that allows me to use most of the torque I would have if I had left leg forward. Granted, no amount of hip rotation from a lead hand can compensate for full power hip rotation from the rear hand.

 Now, with background in place...what about someone in my situation where even though my stronger hand (right) is in front, so is my right leg?


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## carmstrong (Oct 5, 2005)

Hi Steve,

 Sure that makes sense. You've learned to compensate for a physical limitation. I was mostly thinking of some yahoo who just throws a punch at you - not a trained karate guy. I think that kind of person isn't very likely to step-through with a straight punch. Yet we spend a lot of time learning to deal with that kind of attack. 

 We'll be ready if a karate-guy punches at us in that way, but I think we should experiment with other arm-leg orientations that aren't addressed so much in the standard Kenpo curriculum.

 I tend to favor right-side forward myself and there are ways to get power, agreed. But I was thinking more about naturalness rather than power.

 Chris


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## TwistofFat (Oct 5, 2005)

Perhaps if loudmouth 1 had taken 'any' defensive posture, lm #2 might not have ended the confrontation in one shot.  A real life example of a good rule from Kenpo (or any MA): *Avoid* rather than check; check rather than block; block rather than strike; strike rather than maim; maim rather than kill.

LM #1 may have wanted to apply *any*.  The days of chest to chest circling disappeared for me in 1976 (3rd grade) and for this fella on a street corner last Saturday night.


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2005)

carmstrong said:
			
		

> Hi Steve,
> 
> Sure that makes sense. You've learned to compensate for a physical limitation. I was mostly thinking of some yahoo who just throws a punch at you - not a trained karate guy. I think that kind of person isn't very likely to step-through with a straight punch. Yet we spend a lot of time learning to deal with that kind of attack.
> 
> ...



Thats true.  I think back to times when I've had beginners throw a punch.  What do they do?  Just throw without moving the right foot forward.  Why?  Its possible thats all that they know how to do.  Once we teach the tech in the 'ideal phase' with them stepping forward, we need to stress the importance of them being able to adapt to the person that does not step forward.

Mike


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## Doc (Oct 5, 2005)

carmstrong said:
			
		

> We'll be ready if a karate-guy punches at us in that way, but I think we should experiment with other arm-leg orientations that aren't addressed so much in the standard Kenpo curriculum.


Tsk, tsk, tsk. Insert the work SOME in front of "standard Kenpo curriculum."


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## Doc (Oct 5, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Not to be a dissenting voice or anything here, but I have a back injury near the psiatic (sp) nerve on the lower left lumbar area of my back which necessitates me fighting with my right side forward if at all possible. I lose a  tremendous amount of mobility if I fight left side forward, so I compensated. I still retain quite a bit of power with the lead hand as I've developed a method of hip rotation that allows me to use most of the torque I would have if I had left leg forward. Granted, no amount of hip rotation from a lead hand can compensate for full power hip rotation from the rear hand.
> 
> Now, with background in place...what about someone in my situation where even though my stronger hand (right) is in front, so is my right leg?


Despite thoughts to the contrary sir, I find no limitation in your chosen orientation to defend yourself. Only in western influenced fighting is the strong side held in reserve to the rear. In the Chinese Arts of my experience, the strong side is always placed forward and has worked quite well for myself and Ed Parker himself in the multiple right handed systems he created and influenced.


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 6, 2005)

Dr. Chapel,

 Next time I can make it to So Cali can I come pick your brain again especially for direction in compensation for that injury? :asian:


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 6, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Despite thoughts to the contrary sir, I find no limitation in your chosen orientation to defend yourself. Only in western influenced fighting is the strong side held in reserve to the rear. In the Chinese Arts of my experience, the strong side is always placed forward and has worked quite well for myself and Ed Parker himself in the *multiple right handed systems he created and influenced.*


 Multiple systems?

 :begs for info:


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Dr. Chapel,
> 
> Next time I can make it to So Cali can I come pick your brain again especially for direction in compensation for that injury? :asian:


Doors always open to friends.


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Multiple systems?
> 
> :begs for info:


Simply, most contemporary Kenpoist born and bred in the motion "era" wrongly presume what they study is *THE* positively evolved version of what Parker brought from Hawaii to the mainland. Those with that belief are incorrect. It is *AN* evolved version of *SOME* of Mr. Parker's work. More correctly a divergence created by personal necessity designed for proliferation, and by design does not contain certain labor intensive information not conducive to the business model it is based upon.


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## IWishToLearn (Oct 6, 2005)

So count the stars & you'll find out how many personal interpretations are out there?


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> So count the stars & you'll find out how many personal interpretations are out there?


According to Mr. Parker, that is exactly what it is supposed to be. The Motion System, allows students to create their own personal style. Just like JKD, only in my opinion, a greater potential for excellence.


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## Mikael151 (Oct 9, 2005)

I loved watching that video.  I watched it over and over, and, I figured out why the guy got hit.  He deserved it.


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## t-bone1972 (Oct 9, 2005)

i agree with kenpo 5-0 give the attacker some props he didnt hesitate the defender did and he paid the price somebody comes that hard at me it is a simple counter"snap kick to groin then borrow his force from there"no technique needed chop to the throat, roundhouse punch to a sleeper. this guy charging you that hard should be open season otherwise dont talk that much smack on a street corner at nite "if you look for trouble hard enough it will find you"


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