# Black Belt Definiton



## Martial_Kumite (Mar 24, 2017)

HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 24, 2017)

For me it's nothing more than a title that is often completely misunderstood and overhyped, very similar to the title of "Master". I'm very glad that the school I'm at doesn't do any kind of coloured belts and my instructor would never dream of calling himself a Master.


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## kuniggety (Mar 25, 2017)

There's a wide spectrum in definitions and it depends on the art and even more so the school/instructor. There's schools that award a black belt to a person with only a couple of years experience, i.e. When they've transitioned from the beginner to the intermediate stage and those that wait 2-3 times as long and have it mark the transition to the advanced or expert stage. I don't think there's a problem with it in any case but people just have to realize their "black belt" might be the equivalent of a "colored belt" somewhere else and vice versa. It only has meaning within that particular art/school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.


This varies widely and wildly. It definitely differs from art to art, even at times from group to group within an art. I'll give some examples I'm familiar with:


Within mainline NGA (my primary art), BB usually takes 7-10 years (5 is considered quick), and includes the entire core curriculum and instructor training. So, within that group (including the NGAA, the largest organization), the BB means "instructor". There's a significant amount of testing for both brown and black, including long self-defense tests.
Within my curriculum, it's the same as within mainline NGA, except that I don't certify instructors when they get their BB. There's another step for that. So, within my group, BB means "senior student" if you only have the one white stripe. (Red stripes indicate "instructor", then "senior instructor".)
Within BJJ (and others can give better detail on this), there's no clear cut-off for instructor. A blue belt can teach a newcomer because of the progression of the art. There, BB basically means "elite practitioner". They are very good at what they do.
There are styles where BB means you've gotten all the curriculum, and are now ready to actually work at getting good with it. There are also, I believe, styles where BB just means you have the basics down okay (not even the full curriculum) and are now a serious student. In many arts, BB is an instructor. In some, you can't instruct until 5th degree black.

In other words, it means whatever it means to the group in question, and not much beyond that. My BB has specific meaning that folks within NGA will understand (I earned mine within the mainline ranking). It doesn't mean the same thing even in related arts, and if I visit as a student, I usually wear a white belt, instead.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 25, 2017)

Yudansha sit at the adult''s table at the family dinner.


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## Paul_D (Mar 25, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.


It means you have a basic ability to perform the techniques.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 25, 2017)

What a black belt really is
What should a black  belt be?
Whats a black belt to you
What does a Black Belt mean?
black belt standards

There are about a hundred different threads that come up if you type "what is a black belt" in the search bar, all with similar questions being asked. Any one of those can probably tell you the opinions of people on this site.


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## Gfreak (Mar 25, 2017)

Really just depends on the martial art.

From what I"ve seen in many styles of Karate/Taekwondo. A black belt is a basic level of competency in the art. And shows that you're now really ready to begin learning.

In Kuk sool (my secondary art). 1st degree is a "instructor in training". But still really only shows that you've learned all of the basics.

The REAL training usually begins after 1st degree IMO.

In BJJ (my main art). A Black belt is much closer to mastery compared to many martial arts. As degrees after that, are just time in grade. At that point, you've most likely been training for 10+ years. and can fully teach the art as well. (though there are 2 different black belts as well.)


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## Spinedoc (Mar 25, 2017)

In Aikikai Aikido, earning a black belt means you have only really just begun. It will take between 6-10 years, 6 being pretty fast, and really only signifies that you have good technique, smooth, flowing movements, good ukemi, and that you have basically mastered all the basics.....Nothing more. It means you are really ready to start interpreting the art and developing your own..."style"....


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## ks - learning to fly (Mar 25, 2017)

The Black Belt I wear is a bi-product of the work I've done
Black Belt is the beginning of serious training
It is just as hard to BE a Black Belt as it is to earn one.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 25, 2017)

ks - learning to fly said:


> The Black Belt I wear is a bi-product of the work I've done
> Black Belt is the beginning of serious training
> It is just as hard to BE a Black Belt as it is to earn one.



No offence but I really don't like the whole "black belt is the beginning of serious training" as it implies that all the training you do up until getting your blackbelt means hardly anything. Can you not be a serious practitioner if you don't have a blackbelt? Surely you can have a white belt who takes their training 100% seriously? Or perhaps you are thinking about the amount of effort it takes to progress beyond a blackbelt. Again I would dispute that, as more often than not the first year of your training is the hardest, from a mental and physical standpoint. When you first start on your path you have to get into the mindset of training regularly and in the beginning there is a lot to remember. The basics when you first start take a lot of time and effort, particularly in Chinese Martial Arts where you are held on the basics for an extended period of time until you have mastered them. Once you have mastered those basics you start to progress a lot quicker, but in the beginning it's hard to keep your motivation, to keep training when you are doing the same thing week in week out with no seeming end in sight. 

Just to put this into context, my Instructor's Instructor's Master, when he first started had to practice his first Taolu for 3 years before he was allowed to move onto anything more advanced (bearing in mind there are 20 different Taolu in our system). Then he went to a different instructor who told him he was doing it all wrong and had him train for another 3 years, still on the first form. That's 6 years of just the basics. Being able to see that through and not just quit from despair takes a hell of a lot. However, once you are past that point of mastering the basics, the rest of the system comes very quickly and easily.


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## Headhunter (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> No offence but I really don't like the whole "black belt is the beginning of serious training" as it implies that all the training you do up until getting your blackbelt means hardly anything. Can you not be a serious practitioner if you don't have a blackbelt? Surely you can have a white belt who takes their training 100% seriously? Or perhaps you are thinking about the amount of effort it takes to progress beyond a blackbelt. Again I would dispute that, as more often than not the first year of your training is the hardest, from a mental and physical standpoint. When you first start on your path you have to get into the mindset of training regularly and in the beginning there is a lot to remember. The basics when you first start take a lot of time and effort, particularly in Chinese Martial Arts where you are held on the basics for an extended period of time until you have mastered them. Once you have mastered those basics you start to progress a lot quicker, but in the beginning it's hard to keep your motivation, to keep training when you are doing the same thing week in week out with no seeming end in sight.
> 
> Just to put this into context, my Instructor's Instructor's Master, when he first started had to practice his first Taolu for 3 years before he was allowed to move onto anything more advanced (bearing in mind there are 20 different Taolu in our system). Then he went to a different instructor who told him he was doing it all wrong and had him train for another 3 years, still on the first form. That's 6 years of just the basics. Being able to see that through and not just quit from despair takes a hell of a lot. However, once you are past that point of mastering the basics, the rest of the system comes very quickly and easily.


Yeah I hate that to. I get the theory by it but when someone says you only start learning at black belt...it makes no sense because you had to learn the stuff to get the belt.,..a better saying would be you start learning /more/ about the basics as a black belt since when you get it there's not much new material to learn so you can focus the other stuff


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## Gfreak (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> No offence but I really don't like the whole "black belt is the beginning of serious training" as it implies that all the training you do up until getting your blackbelt means hardly anything. Can you not be a serious practitioner if you don't have a blackbelt? Surely you can have a white belt who takes their training 100% seriously? Or perhaps you are thinking about the amount of effort it takes to progress beyond a blackbelt. Again I would dispute that, as more often than not the first year of your training is the hardest, from a mental and physical standpoint. When you first start on your path you have to get into the mindset of training regularly and in the beginning there is a lot to remember. The basics when you first start take a lot of time and effort, particularly in Chinese Martial Arts where you are held on the basics for an extended period of time until you have mastered them. Once you have mastered those basics you start to progress a lot quicker, but in the beginning it's hard to keep your motivation, to keep training when you are doing the same thing week in week out with no seeming end in sight.
> 
> Just to put this into context, my Instructor's Instructor's Master, when he first started had to practice his first Taolu for 3 years before he was allowed to move onto anything more advanced (bearing in mind there are 20 different Taolu in our system). Then he went to a different instructor who told him he was doing it all wrong and had him train for another 3 years, still on the first form. That's 6 years of just the basics. Being able to see that through and not just quit from despair takes a hell of a lot. However, once you are past that point of mastering the basics, the rest of the system comes very quickly and easily.



I'm not sure about chinese martial arts, as I've never done any.

But I don't believe people mean that "you can only be serious about your training, at black belt".

It's more about WHAT you're learning. I.e. before blackbelt is just the basics. Now that you're a higher rank, and proficient in that. You the "real" learning starts. In other words, the dedication of getting to the black belt. has now put you in a place where you can properly learn the bulk of the martial art.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 25, 2017)

Gfreak said:


> I'm not sure about chinese martial arts, as I've never done any.
> 
> But I don't believe people mean that "you can only be serious about your training, at black belt".
> 
> It's more about WHAT you're learning. I.e. before blackbelt is just the basics. Now that you're a higher rank, and proficient in that. You the "real" learning starts. In other words, the dedication of getting to the black belt. has now put you in a place where you can properly learn the bulk of the martial art.


After black belt, it's still the basics. It should always be the basics.

Also, black belt is a very subjective term. For instance, I have been training 3 arts (depending on where I am at the time) for the last 19 years. I have a first degree back belt in two of them, and the other is unranked. While I am by no means a master, I have spent a lot of time getting to black belt, and plenty of time at black belt, and I can safely say that in those arts the bulk of the learning occurred before black belt. Now it is refining my technique, and working much more on application than I had been previously (this is also not a rank thing...I decided on my own I wanted to focus on application. The main difference was refining my technique).


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## Spinedoc (Mar 25, 2017)

In BJJ, at least what I was told, a white belt is where you will be for some time. A blue belt means you have a good foundation and are starting to get to a point where you see the different strategies and where things go.....A purple belt means you have developed a really good defense, but offensively, you may struggle against higher ranks.....a brown belt has a really solid defense, is really developing an incredible offense, and then when you advance to black belt, you have just a really complete, solid game all the way around...Perhaps Tony or one of the other BJJ folks can weigh in.

In Aikikai Aikido, there aren't really colored belts. Some dojos have them, but at hombu, it's traditional white to black. As I said before, in Aikido, it will take at least 6 years, if not 10 or more. One of my fellow students just took his shodan exam....after 18 years of study. He was eligible 7 years ago, but really didn't care about testing. 

There is also, if you are having this discussion, variation by where you are learning. In Japan, when you visit, they will say "OH, you're an American Black Belt".....They reach Black Belt faster in Aikido in Japan, and typically, a nikkyu or second kyu here in the US, would be equivalent to a shodan in Japan. There is MAJOR reason for this.....that is teaching. 

In the US, it is very typical for a Shodan or 1st degree black belt to be teaching...that is unheard of in Japan. It's rare for anyone below the rank of Sandan (3rd degree) to teach, you may find a Nidan teaching a children's class, but most of the teachers are Yondan or above. So, there is a difference there as well.

Mike


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## Gfreak (Mar 25, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> After black belt, it's still the basics. It should always be the basics.
> 
> Also, black belt is a very subjective term. For instance, I have been training 3 arts (depending on where I am at the time) for the last 19 years. I have a first degree back belt in two of them, and the other is unranked. While I am by no means a master, I have spent a lot of time getting to black belt, and plenty of time at black belt, and I can safely say that in those arts the bulk of the learning occurred before black belt. Now it is refining my technique, and working much more on application than I had been previously (this is also not a rank thing...I decided on my own I wanted to focus on application. The main difference was refining my technique).



It is still the basics at the core yes, but applying them in advanced or high stress situations, and chaining them together is what would make a higher belt different IMO. And to me, that is much harder to "learn" than memorizing techniques.

At this point i think it's more semantics and differing of arts honestly. In kuk sool, there's a vast amount things not learned until after 1st degree.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> No offence but I really don't like the whole "black belt is the beginning of serious training" as it implies that all the training you do up until getting your blackbelt means hardly anything. Can you not be a serious practitioner if you don't have a blackbelt? Surely you can have a white belt who takes their training 100% seriously? Or perhaps you are thinking about the amount of effort it takes to progress beyond a blackbelt. Again I would dispute that, as more often than not the first year of your training is the hardest, from a mental and physical standpoint. When you first start on your path you have to get into the mindset of training regularly and in the beginning there is a lot to remember. The basics when you first start take a lot of time and effort, particularly in Chinese Martial Arts where you are held on the basics for an extended period of time until you have mastered them. Once you have mastered those basics you start to progress a lot quicker, but in the beginning it's hard to keep your motivation, to keep training when you are doing the same thing week in week out with no seeming end in sight.
> 
> Just to put this into context, my Instructor's Instructor's Master, when he first started had to practice his first Taolu for 3 years before he was allowed to move onto anything more advanced (bearing in mind there are 20 different Taolu in our system). Then he went to a different instructor who told him he was doing it all wrong and had him train for another 3 years, still on the first form. That's 6 years of just the basics. Being able to see that through and not just quit from despair takes a hell of a lot. However, once you are past that point of mastering the basics, the rest of the system comes very quickly and easily.


I think the idea behind this thinking is that you need a certain amount of foundation to build upon before you can get into the real meat of an art. This is not an unreasonable concept, if the black belt comes a couple of years into an art.


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## JR 137 (Mar 25, 2017)

As has everyone has said, it depends on the organization granting the rank.

I teach grade 5-9 science (ages 9-13, give or take a year).  I've had several students who were black belts.  Most showed up everyday and paid.  I'm not saying they didn't put forth effort nor am I saying they weren't good athletes, but a 9 year old wearing a black belt tells me something about the school.  And there are younger ones than that.

Were I train and previously trained, black belt took about 5 years of consistent training 3x a week on average.  Earning 1st dan means you demonstrated proficiency in the basics and are ready to work on more advanced application of the basics.  It means you're no longer being forced into a mold, in a way - the techniques are yours and you can start making them work for you so to speak.  That last one is hard to explain, but if you've been where I've been, you'll know what I mean.  And it's in a good way.

We had a few guys come from a school down the road.  They were 2nd dans.  They were at about the same level of proficiency as our 4th-5th kyus were (kyus are colored belts for those unfamiliar with the term).  It must be noted that the school down the road averages 2 years to first dan, and about another year to 2nd dan.  So they were pretty much on par with us if you eliminated belt colors/ranks and only looked at training i.e. the guys who train there for 3 years were about as proficient as guys who trained at our place for 3 years.  They did higher level kata at the other school, commensurate with the higher rank, but that doesn't mean it looked good.  It means that they took a 7 year syllabus and condensed it into 3 years.

Personally, I'm fine with taking my time to achieve a rank.  It means far more that way.  I guess my CI's "good enough" is at a higher standard than that other CI's "good enough."


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## Hyoho (Mar 25, 2017)

As I posted in another thread some Japanese arts (Where the black belt came from) are actually lowering ranks. There used to be tenth dan. But who judges tenth dan? A ninth dan panel. It's now down to eight. One of reasons I stopped taking them was I found out that even in Japan you needed connections as well as a special ability. 

I have connections that did not really interest me at all when it came to M.A.


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## Balrog (Apr 4, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.


Too many people think that achieving 1st Degree Black Belt is the be-all and end-all and they quit there.  

I like to have folks think of it like this:  setting the goal to achieve 1st Degree is a great thing to do, but it's like setting a goal to graduate from high school.  The training from 1st grade through 12th grade is all getting you ready to go to college and do some serious studying.  Same with martial arts.  The journey from White Belt to Black Belt is all about learning the basics.  At Black Belt is where you truly begin to study the art.


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## Danny T (Apr 4, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.


No matter any one person's opinion is it only means and corresponds to what the awarding school's, organization's, group's, or individual's meaning & standard is. In one organization it could mean you have learned the basics, in another it may be you have mastered the basics, and yet in a completely different one it may be you have gotten to the point you know enough to train without getting hurt. (In Judo the original BB was award by Kano to those students who knew how to fall without getting hurt. He could do all the throws with those students.) 
Black Belt means the belt you are using as a part of your uniform associated with your school is black.


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## wingerjim (Apr 4, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.


For me it means I have learned a system, in my case Wing Chun as I know all 6 forms, now I am on my journey to becoming a master. Though we actually do not have these my sifu told me I am a Black Belt (Sash), which just means I accomplished the basic learning of the system. Mastering the system takes a whole lot more work than knowing the system, so my journey as he says is really just beginning.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 4, 2017)

Balrog said:


> Too many people think that achieving 1st Degree Black Belt is the be-all and end-all and they quit there.
> 
> I like to have folks think of it like this:  setting the goal to achieve 1st Degree is a great thing to do, but it's like setting a goal to graduate from high school.  The training from 1st grade through 12th grade is all getting you ready to go to college and do some serious studying.  Same with martial arts.  The journey from White Belt to Black Belt is all about learning the basics.  At Black Belt is where you truly begin to study the art.


I think some stop after reaching shodan because they aren't interested in studying the art. They have another goal that their martial training was fulfilling, and maybe that is as far as that art can take them toward that goal. Or, maybe the goal is best met by going and adding another art. Some of my favorite training partners in NGA have moved on to other arts. I think that was in large part because they liked the discovery and learning really new stuff, and there's little entirely new stuff in NGA after shodan, unless you want to dig in and really get into the art, itself.


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## EddieCyrax (Apr 4, 2017)

My opinion.... when i try to explain this topic to friends that dont train in the martial arts, I tell them that BB is like a college bachelor degree.  You put in a lot of study and effort to reach this goal.  This said you can continue your learning to move towards a Mastor's or PHD.....


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 5, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.



It all depends on where you get it and the requirements you had to fulfill to get it. It varies from dojo to dojo and each dojo has their own set of requirements.


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## Hyoho (Apr 6, 2017)

Associations set gradings not dojo.The usual dropout level in Japan is Rokudan.


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2017)

Black Belt - That thing that you tie around your waist that makes you feel really cool anywhere from five minutes to a day and a half.
Then you get your butt whooped. Repeatedly.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 6, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Were I train and previously trained, black belt took about 5 years of consistent training 3x a week on average.  Earning 1st dan means you demonstrated proficiency in the basics and are ready to work on more advanced application of the basics.  It means you're no longer being forced into a mold, in a way - the techniques are yours and you can start making them work for you so to speak.  That last one is hard to explain, but if you've been where I've been, you'll know what I mean.  And it's in a good way.


I agree with you about how when you achieve black belt it means you're proficient with the basics and ready to learn the more advanced stuff which just consists of more layers of the basics. To no longer be forced into a mold is a good analogy. You've learned the roots now its time to flourish from inside. The techniques are yours and you can start using them in your own way to make them work best for you.



JR 137 said:


> Personally, I'm fine with taking my time to achieve a rank.  It means far more that way.  I guess my CI's "good enough" is at a higher standard than that other CI's "good enough."



Well you do have to put in your time if you want to earn a belt from a school that has good standards. You say that at your school getting a black belt on the average takes about 5 years of training 3 times a week. It sounds like a school that has good high standards and that you've really got to know your stuff to get a black belt. In regards to putting in your time though, there is also the question of how much time you put in per week, per class, ect. For instance, I've known of TKD schools that have this special club called the Black Belt Club. Not all the students were in the Black Belt Club but it was a club for students who wanted to make a long term commitment and who hoped to eventually earn a black belt and who wanted to get to black belt sooner than students who weren't in the club. If made black belt and you were in the club you would do it in maybe a year or so less than students who made black belt who were not in the club. When you were in the club you would come in extra times per week and you would sometimes stay after class for further training. That's how you would shave a year or so off the time it would take you to get a black belt.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 6, 2017)

Buka said:


> Black Belt - That thing that you tie around your waist that makes you feel really cool anywhere from five minutes to a day and a half.
> Then you get your butt whooped. Repeatedly.



The part about getting your butt whooped isn't true if you earned it at a legitimate school. If you had it handed to you or if you bought it without earning it than you most likely will get your butt whooped.


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> The part about getting your butt whooped isn't true if you earned it at a legitimate school. If you had it handed to you or if you bought it without earning it than you most likely will get your butt whooped.



Bro, if you earned it at a legitimate school, then the school is going to have some seriously proficient black belts. And you're going to be sparring with them.

Pack a lunch. You're going to be getting your butt whooped all day.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 6, 2017)

Buka said:


> Bro, if you earned it at a legitimate school, then the school is going to have some seriously proficient black belts. And you're going to be sparring with them.
> 
> Pack a lunch. You're going to be getting your butt whooped all day.



Alright I see what you mean. And from my experience I must say you're right.


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2017)

You know how it is, a guy puts on that new belt, it's all stiff, kinda looks like a cat's top whiskers sticking out to the side.
Hard to not to land body kicks at a guy looking like that, break in his belt for him.

New black belts in the striking arts are so damn cute. We've all been there. And may we all remember what it was like.


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## JR 137 (Apr 6, 2017)

Buka said:


> You know how it is, a guy puts on that new belt, it's all stiff, kinda looks like a cat's top whiskers sticking out to the side.
> Hard to not to land body kicks at a guy looking like that, break in his belt for him.
> 
> New black belts in the striking arts are so damn cute. We've all been there. And may we all remember what it was like.



I remember what that was like, and I'll go through it again, eventually.

I walked in to my first black belts only class.  No one congratulated me.  Why?  They were there when I got it.  Everyone beat me up (no more so than before, no less).  Why?  Because the belt didn't give me any magical powers; I was still just JR.  Different belt, same guy.

I was the dog who caught the car he was chasing, with that "now what do I do with it?" look on my face.  Just like everyone else I saw walk in to that class for the first time.


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I was the dog who caught the car he was chasing, with that "now what do I do with it?" look on my face.  Just like everyone else I saw walk in to that class for the first time.



I really got a kick out of that.


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## JR 137 (Apr 6, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree with you about how when you achieve black belt it means you're proficient with the basics and ready to learn the more advanced stuff which just consists of more layers of the basics. To no longer be forced into a mold is a good analogy. You've learned the roots now its time to flourish from inside. The techniques are yours and you can start using them in your own way to make them work best for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Well you do have to put in your time if you want to earn a belt from a school that has good standards. You say that at your school getting a black belt on the average takes about 5 years of training 3 times a week. It sounds like a school that has good high standards and that you've really got to know your stuff to get a black belt. In regards to putting in your time though, there is also the question of how much time you put in per week, per class, ect. For instance, I've known of TKD schools that have this special club called the Black Belt Club. Not all the students were in the Black Belt Club but it was a club for students who wanted to make a long term commitment and who hoped to eventually earn a black belt and who wanted to get to black belt sooner than students who weren't in the club. If made black belt and you were in the club you would do it in maybe a year or so less than students who made black belt who were not in the club. When you were in the club you would come in extra times per week and you would sometimes stay after class for further training. That's how you would shave a year or so off the time it would take you to get a black belt.



I always wondered what the "black belt club" was.  I thought it was for black belts.  I always looked at it like "why does this guy need a patch; doesn't the belt itself say that?"

Neither school I've attended had a black belt club.  If you trained more often (and trained hard while you were there), you promoted a bit faster.  I earned my 1st dan a month short of 4 years.  I was typically at the dojo 4 nights a week, and frequently took back to back classes.  Being an early 20s college student, I didn't have the responsibilities I have today.

This time around, I don't know how long it'll take.  But honestly, I don't care much.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 6, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I always wondered what the "black belt club" was.  I thought it was for black belts.  I always looked at it like "why does this guy need a patch; doesn't the belt itself say that?"
> 
> Neither school I've attended had a black belt club.  If you trained more often (and trained hard while you were there), you promoted a bit faster.  I earned my 1st dan a month short of 4 years.  I was typically at the dojo 4 nights a week, and frequently took back to back classes.  Being an early 20s college student, I didn't have the responsibilities I have today.
> 
> This time around, I don't know how long it'll take.  But honestly, I don't care much.


I've heard of that as a sales tactic. A school offers an upsell to the "Black Belt Club" that is designed to help get the student to BB faster, or some such. In some cases, it might be legitimate, but where I've heard it explained it usually was nothing more than a way to charge a bit more for those classes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 6, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I remember what that was like, and I'll go through it again, eventually.
> 
> I walked in to my first black belts only class.  No one congratulated me.  Why?  They were there when I got it.  Everyone beat me up (no more so than before, no less).  Why?  Because the belt didn't give me any magical powers; I was still just JR.  Different belt, same guy.
> 
> I was the dog who caught the car he was chasing, with that "now what do I do with it?" look on my face.  Just like everyone else I saw walk in to that class for the first time.


We never had a BB-only class (never more than a few BB at the school I trained at), but I remember when folks would join the "advanced" class. It was open to any student who had all 50 techniques, and the pace and intensity was distinctly different there. We never had to be nearly so careful in that class, so it was....bruisier.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've heard of that as a sales tactic. A school offers an upsell to the "Black Belt Club" that is designed to help get the student to BB faster, or some such. In some cases, it might be legitimate, but where I've heard it explained it usually was nothing more than a way to charge a bit more for those classes.



Well you would pay more because you would go to more classes and sometimes your classes would be longer. You pay the same amount per class whether you're in the club or not, but with the club you pay for the extra classes and the extra time that they would not devote to you if you were not in the club.


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## JR 137 (Apr 6, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you would pay more because you would go to more classes and sometimes your classes would be longer. You pay the same amount per class whether you're in the club or not, but with the club you pay for the extra classes and the extra time that they would not devote to you if you were not in the club.



That makes sense if you're paying per class or for up to x number of classes per week or month.  Or if it includes private lessons.  Doesn't make sense if you pay a monthly fee for unlimited classes.


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## JR 137 (Apr 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> We never had a BB-only class (never more than a few BB at the school I trained at), but I remember when folks would join the "advanced" class. It was open to any student who had all 50 techniques, and the pace and intensity was distinctly different there. We never had to be nearly so careful in that class, so it was....bruisier.



Your advanced class is/was probably the same thing as our black belts class, if you adjusted for rank criteria.

I wouldn't say it was "bruisier" per se.  Just that there were no opportunities to take it easy.  In a general class, you've got a mix of ranks.  You might spar a 10th kyu, then a 6th kyu, then a yondan, then a sandan, then an 8th kyu, etc.  In black belt class, you don't get those easy rounds.  Unless of course you're pretty high up in rank and you're still relatively young.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 6, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> That makes sense if you're paying per class or for up to x number of classes per week or month.  Or if it includes private lessons.  Doesn't make sense if you pay a monthly fee for unlimited classes.



My BJJ school has the option where you can pay to come in twice a week, you can pay to come in three times a week, or you can pay for unlimited classes per week. Of course its not truly unlimited as you are limited by how many classes they run per week. Still if you want to come in more often I think its a good option, its only about a $10 dollar difference between unlimited and three times a week and only about a $10 difference between three times a week and twice a week.


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## Hyoho (Apr 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> Bro, if you earned it at a legitimate school, then the school is going to have some seriously proficient black belts. And you're going to be sparring with them.
> 
> Pack a lunch. You're going to be getting your butt whooped all day.



If you were not a fighter before you began to do M.A. you will always get your butt whooped. Even a legitimate school won't help you with something you never had in the first place.

Paying for it won't help either.


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## Buka (Apr 8, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> If you were not a fighter before you began to do M.A. you will always get your butt whooped. Even a legitimate school won't help you with something you never had in the first place.
> 
> Paying for it won't help either.



I couldn't disagree with this more. Not even with a disagreeing machine.


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## JP3 (Apr 8, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> There's a wide spectrum in definitions and it depends on the art and even more so the school/instructor. There's schools that award a black belt to a person with only a couple of years experience, i.e. When they've transitioned from the beginner to the intermediate stage and those that wait 2-3 times as long and have it mark the transition to the advanced or expert stage. I don't think there's a problem with it in any case but people just have to realize their "black belt" might be the equivalent of a "colored belt" somewhere else and vice versa. It only has meaning within that particular art/school.


Absolutely.  From personal knowledge, here's what I think a Black Belt is...

In my own Tomiki-ryu aikido programs, it represents a general understanding of the principles, how & why they work, and the ability to use them to some degree in free practice (i.e. on the fly), competence in the basic kata techniques, and a growing competence in more advanced and variation of techniques.  This takes, depending ont he student and how many mat hours per week they get, anywhere from 1.5 (very fast) to 4 years (pretty slow) to get to shodan... 1st degree black belt.  Oh, and you can fall in any direction without hurting yourself.

In judo, the same basic core of teaching, but as instead of 17 basic techniques and 10 more advanced ones (and some other drill training stuff) you've got the gokyu-no-waza (traditional) 40 throws (not to mention the groundwork, choke and armbar submission training) or the USJA list of throws, which is 67 deep. At the black belt rank demonstration, generally the  judging panel will require the aspirant to demonstrate every single one of these throws, and most of the groundwork as part of the demo.  Mine took 3.5 hours to get through it all.  The promotion requirements include having to go get a certain number of tournament points for each promotion, so you run up against some economic pressures which can slow you down as well. Thus, there is a big range in getting to black belt.  It "can" be done in aout 3 years, but that's almost totally dedicating yoru whole deal to it.  Usually, it's more of a 6 to 10 year thing.

BJJ, by association, I know a guy who trained steadily in BJJ for about 10 years before he got awarded his black belt. He was doing what he was supposed to be doing, too, training 3x a week if not more, going to grappling/bjj tournaments, teaching. Even opened his own school as  brown belt. Still, 10 years.

My TKD black belt, wwhich apparently represented mastery of the basics, and excellence of skill in advanced techniques, took me 4.5 years, similar with Hapkido.

And, as you can note if you glance up at it at the date and time this post is uploaded, I've yet to reach the 500 posts necessary to be a Black Belt on MT.

So, depending on style, a black belt means, "You've got the basics." It can mean, "You know the whole syllabus and can do it all."  It can also mean, "We know you know what you know because we've seen you show us that you know it." And, it can also mean, "You've hung around here for long enough so here you go."  This last is like a participation trophy. Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools out there that give out their real world black belts in this fashion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you would pay more because you would go to more classes and sometimes your classes would be longer. You pay the same amount per class whether you're in the club or not, but with the club you pay for the extra classes and the extra time that they would not devote to you if you were not in the club.


I wasn't clear. Where I've seen it the per-class cost of the "Black Belt Club" classes was higher. So, it might be $100/mo for 2 regular classes/wk (8 classes, most months). The BB Club might be $50 for two more classes (not per week, per month). 

If the classes are smaller and specialized, that might be a reasonable higher fee. If they are not much smaller and/or aren't particularly different in content, then there's little justification.

It's one of those things that can be bad or good, depending how it's used. I just haven't run into it being used the good way as often as the bad.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 9, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> HELLO WORLD. I would like to get peoples opinion on what a "Black belt" (or an equivalent) actually corresponds to. What does it mean to be a black belt (Other than wearing a piece of fabric)? The day of a "Black belt"? Thoughts and opinions wanted.



My teacher told me when I was a gup, back in the '90s... "a black belt simply means that you have mastered the basics, and are now ready to begin learning".


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wasn't clear. Where I've seen it the per-class cost of the "Black Belt Club" classes was higher. So, it might be $100/mo for 2 regular classes/wk (8 classes, most months). The BB Club might be $50 for two more classes (not per week, per month).
> 
> If the classes are smaller and specialized, that might be a reasonable higher fee. If they are not much smaller and/or aren't particularly different in content, then there's little justification.
> 
> It's one of those things that can be bad or good, depending how it's used. I just haven't run into it being used the good way as often as the bad.



Well if you're doing 8 classes a month for $100 that would come to $12.50 per class. If you were in the black belt club and you did 10 classes a month for $150 that would be $15 per class, a bit more per class than what an student who is not in the club pays. But in addition to coming in more often you would also have longer classes, students in the Black Belt Club sometimes stay after class to get in additional training which means that the classes during the extended class time would be smaller and more specialized since only club members would be there. So you've got to factor in that too.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 9, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> My teacher told me when I was a gup, back in the '90s... "a black belt simply means that you have mastered the basics, and are no ready to begin learning".



I agree, which is all the more reason why in my opinion wanting to earn a black belt is a good goal. You've completed your "initiation" and now the real learning, and the real fun, begins.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 9, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree, which is all the more reason why in my opinion wanting to earn a black belt is a good goal. You've completed your "initiation" and now the real learning, and the real fun, begins.



In my current Dojo, the Shihan says:
" there are 4 levels of Kata in our Karatedo. "

1. Learning the movements of a kata.
2. Polishing the movements of a kata.
3. Learning bunkai of a kata.
4. Learning the spirit/ki energy of the kata, ie the meaningful significance and applications from a TCM kind of perspective.

A blackbelt in our traditional Okinawan Karatedo is a slow thing. Very slow.

One student here has been coming for a very long time and has a brown belt still. It is a blessing and a detriment that we have so many forms.

Kanken Toyama learned and preserved 110 kata from Okinawa. To this He added forms from Taiwan and Chun-fa forms from a Korean student. And He created 7 forms of his own, (a mini system).

His late brother (ju-dan) Hanshi Isao Ichikawa, practiced 110 different kata almost daily.
He knew far, far more.

My Shihan only knows 96 or so of them. He has been doing this 44 years.

The (Ju-Dan) Hanshi Nobuo Ichikawa the Honbu dojo in Austria, also knows all of the Toyama curriculum, and has created 4 or 5 of his own.

One of which he created from his deep understanding of TCM, and credits it for helping his body defeat a diagnosis of cancer. (Seriously) the kata was created specifically for self-healing the body.

Over here

Blackbelts of shodan might know 30-35.

As rank is gained, polished kata & bunkai requirements increase, and with it, the number of kata also grow.

Brown 2ND might only know 28.

The more you learn, the more you become aware of what you have yet to learn.


Most systems I encounter besides Bjj/Judo
Put a BB at the Batchlor picture in the link below.

Judo and BJJ put the BB at the masters degree.

And imo...
Shihan's are about the PhD area, and the have done the researcher bit.

Hanshi's are the full post docorate professor, teaching the researchers/PhD candidates.

The illustrated guide to a Ph.D.
By Matt Might
This work of his is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 License.


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## JP3 (Apr 9, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> 1. Learning the movements of a kata.
> 2. Polishing the movements of a kata.
> 3. Learning bunkai of a kata.
> 4. Learning the spirit/ki energy of the kata, ie the meaningful significance and applications from a TCM kind of perspective.
> ...



The above sounds familiar. My initial as an adult aikido teacher described it as: First, I show you the steps of the dance. Then, you walk through the steps of the dance. Next, you add "music" which is life and strife, and you begin to dance and finally, you make it rain.  No, he wasn't Amerind. Just a guy with a cool take on words.

In the Tomiki aikido, we call the shodan the equivalent of graduating from high school, then run it up the line from there. It helps people understand "where they are," really, in their training.


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## Hyoho (Apr 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> I couldn't disagree with this more. Not even with a disagreeing machine.


I meant on the street. Plenty of tough guys out there that never had a lesson in their lives that don't go by a set of rules. A shodan (1st degree) is an acknowledgement that you do have some fighting skills.


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## Buka (Apr 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> If you were not a fighter before you began to do M.A. you will always get your butt whooped. Even a legitimate school won't help you with something you never had in the first place.
> 
> Paying for it won't help either.



By that thinking, it would make Martial arts training completely useless for self defense.

It would also make many of us here, the greatest Martial Arts teachers in the world.
Hey.....wait a minute!


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## Hyoho (Apr 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> By that thinking, it would make Martial arts training completely useless for self defense.
> 
> It would also make many of us here, the greatest Martial Arts teachers in the world.
> Hey.....wait a minute!
> ...


I guess that depends on how much you charge.


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## jobo (Apr 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> If you were not a fighter before you began to do M.A. you will always get your butt whooped. Even a legitimate school won't help you with something you never had in the first place.
> 
> Paying for it won't help either.


I think that is probably true in extreme positions, you cant  teach complicated movement patterns to someone who has little capacity for developing motor skill , and certainly someone who has good motor skills at one sport will find it a lot easier to develop motor skills for another sport, so someone who is already good at fighting will find it easier, but the same is true for someone who is good at soccer or even table tennis. That said people can improve so they can be better at what they do, quite often a lot lot better. If that makes them good at fighting depends on where they started and who they are fighting


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> If you were not a fighter before you began to do M.A. you will always get your butt whooped. Even a legitimate school won't help you with something you never had in the first place.
> 
> Paying for it won't help either.


I also have to disagree with this pretty strongly, based on personal experience.

Before I started training martial arts I was extremely physically timid. I was scrawny, weak, uncoordinated, inflexible, had no endurance, was afraid to get hit, was afraid to hit hard, was easily intimidated, and had no clue as to the realities of violence.

At this point in my life, I've fought full-contact in the ring as an amateur, I've won a few street scraps with criminals, I've sparred hard contact with unpadded sticks, I've sparred with a number of amateur and pro MMA fighters who are preparing for fights (even though I'm twice their age). I do get my butt whooped sometimes, but I also do my share of butt whooping and am always in the fight, win, lose or draw.

I'm not a professional fighter. I'm not any kind of incredible badass. But I have made the transition from someone who was naturally in the bottom 5% of the general population for fighting ability to someone who is solidly in the top 1%.

Admittedly, it took me longer to get competent at fighting than the typical person. It probably took me a few years of training to catch up to where the average person would start out. It took a few more to catch up to where someone with athletic talent and a proclivity for fighting would be at the beginning. If I had been looking to reach championship level while I was still in my athletic prime, I would have been out of luck. I just kept plugging along, pushing myself a bit beyond my comfort level, then a bit beyond my new comfort level, over and over and over, until I had substantially rewired my mind and my body and changed significantly as a person.

I'm really not a fan of the "you have it or you don't" attitude in any field. It's a marker for instructors who either only want to teach the naturally talented or who don't know how to teach the untalented.


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## jobo (Apr 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I also have to disagree with this pretty strongly, based on personal experience.
> 
> Before I started training martial arts I was extremely physically timid. I was scrawny, weak, uncoordinated, inflexible, had no endurance, was afraid to get hit, was afraid to hit hard, was easily intimidated, and had no clue as to the realities of violence.
> 
> ...


you cant underestimate stickability in the equation , but that then is a skill you have brought in that others may not have to the same extent. We had not a dissimilar chat in another thread, In some ways its the nature nurture debate.

Big natural Talent is of little use if you dont apply it. A little talent can go a long way if you have good teaching and you do. But applied natural talent will trump , determination every time.
I have a niece who is a particularly unco ordinated girl, she has some low level epilemsy , it took me three years to teach her to ride a bike, but to her credit and mine we stuck at it, another nice from a different blood line who was ridding in twenty minutes and was competent inside a couple of hours. That wasn't my teaching that was her applying her talents'.

Three years on,she is quite amazing, she has continued her mountain  biking and and can now more than match me at tricky down hill sections( she is 8). She is not only talented she has no fear, she fall off, she gets up, she does it again, which is the personality characteristic she applied. Whilst the other girl is still challenged by high kerbs

they are both to be admired, but as a combination applied natural talent and determination, seems to outdo less of a talent and determination. I doubt that any amount of time will close the gap between them, rather I suspect it will increase if they both stay with cycling


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## Hyoho (Apr 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I also have to disagree with this pretty strongly, based on personal experience.
> 
> Before I started training martial arts I was extremely physically timid. I was scrawny, weak, uncoordinated, inflexible, had no endurance, was afraid to get hit, was afraid to hit hard, was easily intimidated, and had no clue as to the realities of violence.
> 
> ...



Well I did get beat up and bullied at school. One day I hit back and the guy never got up again and I found my hidden talents. I guess this realisation could come from doing MA. I do consider it to be useful tool but in this day and age it gets nasty out there. We all do it because we like it not because we are good at it. Within a serious dojo on a yearly basis are those that will always 'make the team' and those that perhaps will never make it. But all in all they push each other to extremes and all are essential members. It just that I don't like to see anyone get illusional that if they do what we do they will all become exponents.


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## geezer (Apr 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> If you were not a fighter before you began to do M.A. you will always get your butt whooped. Even a legitimate school won't help you with something you never had in the first place.



OK, you _do_ have a point here ...sorta.

Some people just seem to be natural fighters. They are very tough with or without training. They "have what it takes" ...a gritty determination to win, to overcome their opponent in a conflict.

Others simply don't have that "fighting spirit". They can learn all the technique in the world, but just cave-in under real pressure.

But, by far, most of us are somewhere _between_ those extremes. And with enough work and proper training, we can learn to dig deep within ourselves and find that drive to win, that _heart_.

If this is not the case, then all martial-arts training, and for that matter, all the basic training we give to solders would be a waste of time. History shows us otherwise


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> you cant underestimate stickability in the equation , but that then is a skill you have brought in that others may not have to the same extent. We had not a dissimilar chat in another thread, In some ways its the nature nurture debate.
> 
> Big natural Talent is of little use if you dont apply it. A little talent can go a long way if you have good teaching and you do. But applied natural talent will trump , determination every time.


Natural ability can make a huge difference, but it doesn't necessarily outweigh hard work. I've passed a lot of people along the way who had much more talent than I did, because I kept at it while they gave up.

On the other hand, I have had newer people come along and pass me because they had talent _and_ put in a ton of hard work.

If you think of the equation as results = work x talent x coaching, then it's obvious the folks at the very top of any field will be the ones who had unusual natural talent, worked their asses off for a long time, and had guidance to apply their work in the most productive directions. If you want to win an Olympic gold medal, or a Nobel prize, or an Oscar, or be at the equivalent level as the people who do such things, then you need all those factors. For the other 99.999% of the population, I'd recommend not worrying too much about one's natural limits, since very few of us ever reach the limit of our natural capacity in any field. We mostly just reach the point where we don't care about that area of our life enough to work on it any more than we already are.


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## jobo (Apr 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Natural ability can make a huge difference, but it doesn't necessarily outweigh hard work. I've passed a lot of people along the way who had much more talent than I did, because I kept at it while they gave up.
> 
> On the other hand, I have had newer people come along and pass me because they had talent _and_ put in a ton of hard work.
> 
> If you think of the equation as results = work x talent x coaching, then it's obvious the folks at the very top of any field will be the ones who had unusual natural talent, worked their asses off for a long time, and had guidance to apply their work in the most productive directions. If you want to win an Olympic gold medal, or a Nobel prize, or an Oscar, or be at the equivalent level as the people who do such things, then you need all those factors. For the other 99.999% of the population, I'd recommend not worrying too much about one's natural limits, since very few of us ever reach the limit of our natural capacity in any field. We mostly just reach the point where we don't care about that area of our life enough to work on it any more than we already are.


yes, but that's the they gave up issue, an ability to stick at things, to refuse to be defeated,is just as much a natural talent, as good co ordination. . . In a lot of ways its a rarer skill.
you've got to compare like with like. I can play football far better than those who we're greatly talented at school. Not because. I've got better,, but because they are 58 yo over Weight chain smokers with gout, its not really a fair comparison, I just kept doing it long enough that physical decay tipped it in my favour. My skill is my determination to keep myself fit

if you can take someone with very little skill and make them as good as a natural. Talent who also trains applies themselves then your point will stand


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## Hyoho (Apr 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Natural ability can make a huge difference, but it doesn't necessarily outweigh hard work. I've passed a lot of people along the way who had much more talent than I did, because I kept at it while they gave up.
> 
> On the other hand, I have had newer people come along and pass me because they had talent _and_ put in a ton of hard work.
> 
> If you think of the equation as results = work x talent x coaching, then it's obvious the folks at the very top of any field will be the ones who had unusual natural talent, worked their asses off for a long time, and had guidance to apply their work in the most productive directions. If you want to win an Olympic gold medal, or a Nobel prize, or an Oscar, or be at the equivalent level as the people who do such things, then you need all those factors. For the other 99.999% of the population, I'd recommend not worrying too much about one's natural limits, since very few of us ever reach the limit of our natural capacity in any field. We mostly just reach the point where we don't care about that area of our life enough to work on it any more than we already are.



For sure you only get out of it what you put into it. My own personal training used to be around ten times a week. Sadly I have seen many train to extremes from elementary to university level to win national competitions. Then they just 'give up'. But many of them did require a minimum sandan level to secure a job.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> I think that is probably true in extreme positions, you cant  teach complicated movement patterns to someone who has little capacity for developing motor skill , and certainly someone who has good motor skills at one sport will find it a lot easier to develop motor skills for another sport, so someone who is already good at fighting will find it easier, but the same is true for someone who is good at soccer or even table tennis. That said people can improve so they can be better at what they do, quite often a lot lot better. If that makes them good at fighting depends on where they started and who they are fighting



Well that depends. There are some people that excel at just about any sport they do. And then there are people who might be really good in one sport but not good at certain other sports.


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## jobo (Apr 11, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well that depends. There are some people that excel at just about any sport they do. And then there are people who might be really good in one sport but not good at certain other sports.


yes to some extent. You can find a sport that is better suited to your body type, just as you can find a ma that is better to your physical features. I have much better hand eye co ordination than eye foot co ordination. My legs think they are for running and jumping not juggling things. I excelled at rugby , run fast and catch things, less so at football so I just ran fast and kicked people instead. But its one of lives unfairness, that people with a high standard of balance cardio and co ordination are fairly good at most sports and those that arn't are not
even some thing as simple as running takes fairly advance motor skill, as you may have noticed with people jogging by with no such skills. Even fishing takes good reactions and co ordination


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2017)

So there's this fellow who got a black belt in BJJ. He says if you get a black belt in BJJ it really is quite an accomplishment. He says that if you get a Karate black belt its really no big deal since there's so many of them but with BJJ black belts they are much more rare and to get a black belt in BJJ you've really got to work hard and you've got to put in your time. So according to him getting a black belt in a style such as BJJ is quite different than getting it in Karate or some other style.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 29, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So there's this fellow who got a black belt in BJJ. He says if you get a black belt in BJJ it really is quite an accomplishment. He says that if you get a Karate black belt its really no big deal since there's so many of them but with BJJ black belts they are much more rare and to get a black belt in BJJ you've really got to work hard and you've got to put in your time. So according to him getting a black belt in a style such as BJJ is quite different than getting it in Karate or some other style.



Error : he assumed that all karate is the same. It isn't. Depending on which style of karate it can take longer then 10 years to rank a bb.


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## CB Jones (Apr 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wasn't clear. Where I've seen it the per-class cost of the "Black Belt Club" classes was higher. So, it might be $100/mo for 2 regular classes/wk (8 classes, most months). The BB Club might be $50 for two more classes (not per week, per month).
> 
> If the classes are smaller and specialized, that might be a reasonable higher fee. If they are not much smaller and/or aren't particularly different in content, then there's little justification.
> 
> It's one of those things that can be bad or good, depending how it's used. I just haven't run into it being used the good way as often as the bad.



Where we train has a black belt club....you have the option to join when you move up to the advanced class.  Its an extra $20 a month but you get unlimited access to the dojo and you are provided with your first Bo staff and Nunchaku.


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## CB Jones (Apr 29, 2017)

TSD not sure what is funny about what I posted?


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## TSDTexan (Apr 30, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> TSD not sure what is funny about what I posted?



I was just smiling. That made me feel good.

I like "all you can eat" type deals... especially when they throw in a Bo "staff" (I feel the twitches of those who are anal-retention-ish about using the redundant terms).

However, my ears have heard okinawans, who were kobudo practioners commit this Horrible Faux Pas.
Hey, if they can do it we can do.

But I would ask if I could have Sai instead of Nunchaku.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So there's this fellow who got a black belt in BJJ. He says if you get a black belt in BJJ it really is quite an accomplishment. He says that if you get a Karate black belt its really no big deal since there's so many of them but with BJJ black belts they are much more rare and to get a black belt in BJJ you've really got to work hard and you've got to put in your time. So according to him getting a black belt in a style such as BJJ is quite different than getting it in Karate or some other style.


The BB means what it means to each person. Some people are quite pleased when they receive theirs, regardless of how long or short the training was to get there. Some prefer ranks to come slowly, so they can enjoy the moment more. Others like them to come quickly, so they can move through them and enjoy more promotions. Some just train and get the ranks at whatever speed they come, without much focus on their belt color. Nothing inherently wrong with any of them, so long as they don't impose their own standards on others.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Where we train has a black belt club....you have the option to join when you move up to the advanced class.  Its an extra $20 a month but you get unlimited access to the dojo and you are provided with your first Bo staff and Nunchaku.


I like that deal. Before the upgrade, how many classes are normally included?


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 30, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> especially when they throw in a Bo "staff"



Point taken.  lol.



TSDTexan said:


> But I would ask if I could have Sai instead of Nunchaku.



Our School teaches 3 weapon Bo, Nunchaku, and Sai......Bo is the main weapon taught and just the basics of Nunchaku.  If you want to learn more advanced Nunchaku and/or Sai you have to ask and work on that after class.



gpseymour said:


> I like that deal. Before the upgrade, how many classes are normally included?



Beginners get 2 classes per week....advanced gets both beginner classes and both advanced classes (they are run directly after each other)....so 4.  Black Belt Club gets the 2 beginners, 2 advanced, along with 2 nights training with the University team, and Friday nights are Black Belts and BB Club only.  You can also get let in the dojo on weekends upon request.


Our BB Club is not for BB it is for students who want to put in more work to get their BB.  When you join, your BB with your name is hung up on the wall until you earn it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Point taken.  lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, are there just 4 regular classes per week - 2 beginners classes and 2 advanced? Or are there more, and folks just get to attend 2?


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, are there just 4 regular classes per week - 2 beginners classes and 2 advanced? Or are there more, and folks just get to attend 2?



Beginner class is two nights per week and advanced class is after beginner class at the dojo. (Tues and Thurs)

Two nights a week is a University class and karate team training at the university (Mon and Wed).  University students and BB club only.

Friday nights are BB and BB club only at the dojo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Beginner class is two nights per week and advanced class is after beginner class at the dojo. (Tues and Thurs)
> 
> Two nights a week is a University class and karate team training at the university (Mon and Wed).  University students and BB club only.
> 
> Friday nights are BB and BB club only at the dojo.


Interesting. I've always trained at schools (except when I was taking private lessons) where general classes (beginners and others together) were held 5-6 days a week, sometimes multiple times a day. I had assumed that was necessary for a program to grow. Perhaps not. Perhaps my 3 class days (Tues, Thurs, Sat) are enough for the foreseeable future.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting. I've always trained at schools (except when I was taking private lessons) where general classes (beginners and others together) were held 5-6 days a week, sometimes multiple times a day. I had assumed that was necessary for a program to grow. Perhaps not. Perhaps my 3 class days (Tues, Thurs, Sat) are enough for the foreseeable future.


 
2 classes a night seem fine for the beginners.

Now the advanced students typically join the BB club and will train 3-5 nights a week.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 30, 2017)

Also let me add that our Sensei used to offer 4 nights a week for beginners but had to reduce it to 2 when he took over the University team for his Sensei when he retired a couple years ago.  (the university and the dojo are in 2 different cities)

Really didn't see much difference in a change in the beginners rate of progress though.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 1, 2017)

I don't use colored belts or higher ranks in my system. There is no master to point the way or set the next goal. Brothers and sisters in my style are encouraged to set their own personal goals and work toward reaching those goals in their spare time. Some progress faster than others. Some are more advanced than others. Some are younger, some are older. Some are faster, some are stronger. Some train harder and more often than others. No matter what though, my system always goes by age, oldest to youngest. Hence I have older brothers and younger brothers, juniors and seniors. Skill level isn't that important to us, but the training quality is always higher than expected without bias, meaning there is no leniency for women or children, for the elderly or handicapped. Everyone is treated equally and pushed to their very limits, at their own pace of course. This works well for our style, or at least I think it does. I haven't trained with many disabled persons in my lifetime, just one guy in a wheelchair who developed some amazing arm strength/speed. Right now, the oldest person to practice my system is 39-years-old, hardly the oldest MAist on the block. So we'll just have to wait to see how well this system works in 20 years from now if it survives.


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## PhotonGuy (May 1, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Error : he assumed that all karate is the same. It isn't. Depending on which style of karate it can take longer then 10 years to rank a bb.



True. There are many different styles of Karate especially considering that Karate has become a generic term for many of the striking based styles of the orient. For instance TKD will often be called Karate or Korean Karate due to its similarities to the Japanese striking styles. And then there are many different styles within styles all of which might be called Karate. I think what he meant is that Karate black belts are all too common but you don't find that many BJJ black belts. There are some Karate schools where it does take 10 years or more on the average for a person to get a black belt and then there are Karate schools which are belt factories. TKD schools can be notorious for being belt factories. Not all TKD schools are belt factories but there are many that are and there are some of the Japanese Karate schools that are belt factories too. Right now you don't see much if any BJJ schools that are belt factories but sadly that might change. Schools everywhere are popping up that claim to teach BJJ and for some of them to be belt factories will no doubt be the next thing to follow. Now, a school that uses the Gracie name on the other hand, if they do so without the Gracie's approval they will most likely be called out for it so that is why I prefer to train at a BJJ school that uses the Gracie name. Any school that is run by the Gracies or teaches under the Gracie name will not be a belt factory. The fellow who got a black belt in BJJ, he just pointed out how he had to work hard and put in his time to really earn it. Sure there are Karate schools like that too but there are many Karate schools that more or less hand out belts unlike how it is with BJJ at least for now.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The BB means what it means to each person. Some people are quite pleased when they receive theirs, regardless of how long or short the training was to get there. Some prefer ranks to come slowly, so they can enjoy the moment more. Others like them to come quickly, so they can move through them and enjoy more promotions. Some just train and get the ranks at whatever speed they come, without much focus on their belt color. Nothing inherently wrong with any of them, so long as they don't impose their own standards on others.



I agree. The meaning varies from person to person but also from dojo to dojo. I also agree that people shouldn't impose their standards on others which I believe has caused problems here before.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 2, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> True. There are many different styles of Karate especially considering that Karate has become a generic term for many of the striking based styles of the orient. For instance TKD will often be called Karate or Korean Karate due to its similarities to the Japanese striking styles. And then there are many different styles within styles all of which might be called Karate. I think what he meant is that Karate black belts are all too common but you don't find that many BJJ black belts. There are some Karate schools where it does take 10 years or more on the average for a person to get a black belt and then there are Karate schools which are belt factories. TKD schools can be notorious for being belt factories. Not all TKD schools are belt factories but there are many that are and there are some of the Japanese Karate schools that are belt factories too. Right now you don't see much if any BJJ schools that are belt factories but sadly that might change. Schools everywhere are popping up that claim to teach BJJ and for some of them to be belt factories will no doubt be the next thing to follow. Now, a school that uses the Gracie name on the other hand, if they do so without the Gracie's approval they will most likely be called out for it so that is why I prefer to train at a BJJ school that uses the Gracie name. Any school that is run by the Gracies or teaches under the Gracie name will not be a belt factory. The fellow who got a black belt in BJJ, he just pointed out how he had to work hard and put in his time to really earn it. Sure there are Karate schools like that too but there are many Karate schools that more or less hand out belts unlike how it is with BJJ at least for now.



Yes. My journey in unarmed martial arts started in a Shotokan / Tang Soo Do school.
From there I went to a school called "Action Karate Moo Duk Kwan". The teacher at the second school always called it Korean Karate.
The Korean hyungs: called "Pyong-an" or "Pyung-Ahn" were created in Okinawa.

There are many other "kata" from Okinawa that wound up becoming korean "Hyungs". How it came to be is hotly contested, in many circles.

But yes, if a KMA has a form from Okinawa, or Japanese karate, then the art is decended from karate.

But the term karate does mean many things to different people.

An uninformed American who watched the Karate kid with Ralph Macchio, and Pat Morito and that was his basic level of knowledge about karate... he would look at TSD, And TKD... and presumably feel that it was Korean Karate.

Ask a lot of Koreans, about the karate kid movie... they would say it's not TKD or TSD....
In that movie but Japanese Karate....
The irony here is that the Karate Kid franchise had all of its fight choreography done by *Pat E. Johnson.
*
Now, most people have no idea who he is.
But he is an ATSD 9th dan. Trained by a Korean, and by Chuck Norris.

He used TSD for the karate kid, but most Koreans I know think it's Japanese karate not Korean tsd


----------



## CB Jones (May 2, 2017)

Fumio Demura also had some influence in the karate kid movies.

He was Pat Morita's stunt double and who Morita modeled the Mr. Miyagi character after.


----------



## Headhunter (May 2, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So there's this fellow who got a black belt in BJJ. He says if you get a black belt in BJJ it really is quite an accomplishment. He says that if you get a Karate black belt its really no big deal since there's so many of them but with BJJ black belts they are much more rare and to get a black belt in BJJ you've really got to work hard and you've got to put in your time. So according to him getting a black belt in a style such as BJJ is quite different than getting it in Karate or some other style.


Well he sounds like an idiot. Sure there are bad katate black belts but there's also bad bjj black belts. It doesn't mean all of them are.


----------



## Headhunter (May 2, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't use colored belts or higher ranks in my system. There is no master to point the way or set the next goal. Brothers and sisters in my style are encouraged to set their own personal goals and work toward reaching those goals in their spare time. Some progress faster than others. Some are more advanced than others. Some are younger, some are older. Some are faster, some are stronger. Some train harder and more often than others. No matter what though, my system always goes by age, oldest to youngest. Hence I have older brothers and younger brothers, juniors and seniors. Skill level isn't that important to us, but the training quality is always higher than expected without bias, meaning there is no leniency for women or children, for the elderly or handicapped. Everyone is treated equally and pushed to their very limits, at their own pace of course. This works well for our style, or at least I think it does. I haven't trained with many disabled persons in my lifetime, just one guy in a wheelchair who developed some amazing arm strength/speed. Right now, the oldest person to practice my system is 39-years-old, hardly the oldest MAist on the block. So we'll just have to wait to see how well this system works in 20 years from now if it survives.


I thought you didn't teach anyone...


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 2, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I thought you didn't teach anyone...



I don't teach Mou Meng Gung Fu to anyone outside the family. The family includes only those who are related by DNA, through marraige or personal relationships or through living arrangements and long-term family friendships. It's a closed-door system, in orther words. I do not teach the public.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Fumio Demura also had some influence in the karate kid movies.
> 
> He was Pat Morita's stunt double and who Morita modeled the Mr. Miyagi character after.



I had heard that. Looked into it, and it's true, but Pat Morita character as written by Robert Mark Kamen was modeled and named after Chojun Migagi... so yes I agree with you.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 2, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well he sounds like an idiot. Sure there are bad katate black belts but there's also bad bjj black belts. It doesn't mean all of them are.



At least for now you aren't going to find any bad BJJ black belts. Anybody who has earned a black belt in BJJ didn't earn it by being bad. Sadly that might soon change, the way more and more schools claim to teach BJJ and how the style is becoming more and more commercialized.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 2, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> At least for now you aren't going to find any bad BJJ black belts. Anybody who has earned a black belt in BJJ didn't earn it by being bad. Sadly that might soon change, the way more and more schools claim to teach BJJ and how the style is becoming more and more commercialized.



I don't keep up with the BJJ/MMA politics, but I witnessed a wrestling match between a Japanese Hawaiin judoka and a Japanese Brazilian judoka. Both were really talented in stand-up grappling and ground wrestling, but the smaller Hawaiin judoka showed more expertise. On the other hand, I trained with a few BJJ practioners from the Machado lineage who were not only very talented, but also very fluid and adaptable. They were submitting MMA stylists during sparring matches within seconds. So I guess it just depends on what your exposure is. Some are better than others. That's all I know.


----------



## kuniggety (May 2, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't keep up with the BJJ/MMA politics, but I witnessed a wrestling match between a Japanese Hawaiin judoka and a Japanese Brazilian judoka. Both were really talented in stand-up grappling and ground wrestling, but the smaller Hawaiin judoka showed more expertise. On the other hand, I trained with a few BJJ practioners from the Machado lineage who were not only very talented, but also very fluid and adaptable. They were submitting MMA stylists during sparring matches within seconds. So I guess it just depends on what your exposure is. Some are better than others. That's all I know.



Of course some are better than others. That goes with any skill. Any person who has a black belt in BJJ would firmly be considered an advanced player/expert of the art. But then that also spans up to those who are elite which many are not. Judo is another grappling art which is the same. You can find judo, sambo, catch wrestling, etc practitioners that can beat a BJJ black belt if they've put in the mat time themselves.


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## Headhunter (May 3, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> At least for now you aren't going to find any bad BJJ black belts. Anybody who has earned a black belt in BJJ didn't earn it by being bad. Sadly that might soon change, the way more and more schools claim to teach BJJ and how the style is becoming more and more commercialized.



Yes you are:


----------



## Paul_D (May 3, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Any school that is run by the Gracies or teaches under the Gracie name will not be a belt factory.


Does Gracie University steel send out belts in the mail if you record yourself doing techniques, or has that stopped now?


----------



## JR 137 (May 3, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> At least for now you aren't going to find any bad BJJ black belts. Anybody who has earned a black belt in BJJ didn't earn it by being bad. Sadly that might soon change, the way more and more schools claim to teach BJJ and how the style is becoming more and more commercialized.



What about Rigan Machado's "flow- jujitsu" where celebrities train and earn BJJ rank without actually rolling?  How long will it be before it's offered to the general public and by other BJJ schools?

Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities


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## TSDTexan (May 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> What about Rigan Machado's "flow- jujitsu" where celebrities train and earn BJJ rank without actually rolling?  How long will it be before it's offered to the general public and by other BJJ schools?
> 
> Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities



Where's the pressure testing?
How much does he charge said celebrities?

Ed O'Neill (Al Bundy) earned his BB after working on it 22 years under Rorion Gracie.
He never showed up on camera looking so wrecked that "makeup" could not make him camera ready.

Sounds like a cop out.... and I have lost respect for Vin Diesel for going to this "no roll" bjj program.


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## JR 137 (May 3, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Where's the pressure testing?
> How much does he charge said celebrities?
> 
> Ed O'Neill (Al Bundy) earned his BB after working on it 22 years under Rorion Gracie.
> ...



If they're smart, they'd charge celebrities nothing or minimally.  The whole "Vin Diesel trains here, so it must be great" mentality.

I've seen Ed O'Neil rolling in videos.  He's legit.  While I don't think he'd tear up the BB divisions at tournaments, I'm quite sure he'd hold his own against anyone his age, physical condition, training methods, etc.

As far as loosing respect for the actors, I don't.  They've got to protect their livelihoods.  A dislocated elbow could mean missing out on a movie roll.  I can't definitely say I'd be any different, although I'd like to.  The blame is on Machado on this one.  Then again, he's increasing his and BJJ's popularity as a whole.  Sacrifice a few for the good of the whole?


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## kuniggety (May 3, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Does Gracie University steel send out belts in the mail if you record yourself doing techniques, or has that stopped now?



A belt is just a belt but the big uproar initially was that they were handing out blue belts which should signify a significant milestone in one's BJJ journey. They initially changed it to a "technical" blue belt and then it changed it again to a "combatives belt" which is a white belt with a blue-gray stripe I think.


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## KenpoMaster805 (May 3, 2017)

a black belt is a white belt who never gives up


----------



## TSDTexan (May 3, 2017)

.


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## TSDTexan (May 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> If they're smart, they'd charge celebrities nothing or minimally.  The whole "Vin Diesel trains here, so it must be great" mentality.
> 
> I've seen Ed O'Neil rolling in videos.  He's legit.  While I don't think he'd tear up the BB divisions at tournaments, I'm quite sure he'd hold his own against anyone his age, physical condition, training methods, etc.
> 
> As far as loosing respect for the actors, I don't.  They've got to protect their livelihoods.  A dislocated elbow could mean missing out on a movie roll.  I can't definitely say I'd be any different, although I'd like to.  The blame is on Machado on this one.  Then again, he's increasing his and BJJ's popularity as a whole.  Sacrifice a few for the good of the whole?




This is the dilemma of grappling / striking arts. Dr. Jigaro Kano simplified, and removed the more dangerous techniques for his Judo.

The karate of Gitchin Funakoshi was also abbreviated.

But without aliveness, or pressure testing there remains considerible doubts in the mind of many practitioners whether the will be able to actually perform under a real world fight.

Kano's judo while argued to be safer than the jujitsu arts it was derived from, still lead to injurits.

For example:
Techniques like Kani Basami have perma-crippled athletes in competition ( see Yasuhiro Yamashita v. Sumio Endo ) and were sanctioned out of use.

Bjj does have dangerous techniques, but if you don't roll, how will you learn control?

Let's argue that Vin Diesel learns how to apply the techniques, but has not learned how to control power in application..
In an event where bodyguards were absent...

He could open himself to a wrongful death, or bodily harm lawsuit, from the perp (or surviving family members) who  lost, but knows someone who is good at chasing ambulances, and arguing cases.

Yes, he would probably win the lawsuit, but at a financial cost, and a loss of time, and emotional distress.

In the end, if BJJ such as this, allows itself to discard rolling, it risks facing the same criticism that other TMAs face.


----------



## Headhunter (May 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> What about Rigan Machado's "flow- jujitsu" where celebrities train and earn BJJ rank without actually rolling?  How long will it be before it's offered to the general public and by other BJJ schools?
> 
> Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities


Yeah that's total garbage...it's not like it's even a striking art where you could get away with that by showing your combos


----------



## Headhunter (May 3, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I don't teach Mou Meng Gung Fu to anyone outside the family. The family includes only those who are related by DNA, through marraige or personal relationships or through living arrangements and long-term family friendships. It's a closed-door system, in orther words. I do not teach the public.


Ah okay I get it that way you get only positive reviews because your family wants to be nice


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 3, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Ah okay I get it that way you get only positive reviews because your family wants to be nice



Exactly! Lol it's kind of like how you only get good reviews in bed because your wife wants to be nice.


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 3, 2017)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> a black belt is a white belt who never gives up



Good tea... Thank you.


----------



## kuniggety (May 3, 2017)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> a black belt is a white belt who never gives up



I'm no where near a black belt in BJJ but we did a drill last week where we spent a minute in each other's full guard. I paired with a white belt and I opened his guard and took side control 4 or 5 times in that minute. The result was the same with him in my guard... me breaking his posture and sweating him a few times. Anyways, he comments: "I hope to get as good as you one day." My response was just: "don't quit". 

As a father of two and in the military, I know how life can get in the way. You just gotta accept the set backs and jump back into it.


----------



## JR 137 (May 3, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> This is the dilemma of grappling / striking arts. Dr. Jigaro Kano simplified, and removed the more dangerous techniques for his Judo.
> 
> The karate of Gitchin Funakoshi was also abbreviated.
> 
> ...



That's a good way to look at it.  I hadn't considered that viewpoint.

I was thinking they learn a bunch of techniques.  Perhaps (and hopefully) to the point where they've got good control while using them.  All's fine and good with that except one thing - they don't know how to truly set them up.  They don't know when nor how to really transition from one thing to the next.  No different that if you were taught non-contact boxing - taught combinations, footwork, hitting a heavy bag and speed very well, but never sparred.  How would you truly know when to throw what?  Regardless of the style you practice, things never go 100% as planned in a physical altercation.  What separates the best from the rest and the worst is the best know what's coming, how to counter it, how to prevent it from coming in the first place, etc.  You can't get that real sense of "what if" without actually getting on the mat, floor, etc.  I think non-contact karate (and every other striking art) is a joke.  Non-rolling grappling arts are just as much of a joke.  BJJ prides itself on pressure testing, non-LARPing (if you will), and not being glorified gymnastics and/or dance.  Non-rolling BJJ is no different imo.  It falls under the McDojo umbrella so many of them are so quick to point out.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 3, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yes you are:


No, the whole point of that incident is that Mr. Queiroz is not a BJJ black belt.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> That's a good way to look at it.  I hadn't considered that viewpoint.
> 
> I was thinking they learn a bunch of techniques.  Perhaps (and hopefully) to the point where they've got good control while using them.  All's fine and good with that except one thing - they don't know how to truly set them up.  They don't know when nor how to really transition from one thing to the next.  No different that if you were taught non-contact boxing - taught combinations, footwork, hitting a heavy bag and speed very well, but never sparred.  How would you truly know when to throw what?  Regardless of the style you practice, things never go 100% as planned in a physical altercation.  What separates the best from the rest and the worst is the best know what's coming, how to counter it, how to prevent it from coming in the first place, etc.  You can't get that real sense of "what if" without actually getting on the mat, floor, etc.  I think non-contact karate (and every other striking art) is a joke.  Non-rolling grappling arts are just as much of a joke.  BJJ prides itself on pressure testing, non-LARPing (if you will), and not being glorified gymnastics and/or dance.  Non-rolling BJJ is no different imo.  It falls under the McDojo umbrella so many of them are so quick to point out.



The "how to" of learning setups was solved in karate and other similar arts was solved by the creation of forms.

First you program muscle memory, to make it instinctive, and condition the body. 

Then you learn through analysis, or the break down of what the kata is saying tactically.

Bam! You are deep drilling your setups.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> What about Rigan Machado's "flow- jujitsu" where celebrities train and earn BJJ rank without actually rolling?  How long will it be before it's offered to the general public and by other BJJ schools?
> 
> Rigan Machado Designs Jiu-Jitsu System without Sparring for Celebrities


Rigan has not promoted any of his no-rolling celebrity students to black belt. I think one of his celebrity students may have gotten as high as purple, but I don't know if that individual was in the no-rolling class.

Rigan gets enough criticism from the BJJ community for the program as is. If he ever promotes any of his non-rollers to black belt, he will be absolutely excoriated by the entire community including other family members.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 3, 2017)

On further research, I see Rigan states that while he has the "flow ju jutsu" classes available for his celebrity students, they do not actually get promoted in rank unless they actually spar/roll.


----------



## Headhunter (May 4, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Exactly! Lol it's kind of like how you only get good reviews in bed because your wife wants to be nice.


Real classy you are....what're you 15


----------



## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 4, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Real classy you are....what're you 15



Even if I was 15, still tho... lol


----------



## JR 137 (May 4, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rigan has not promoted any of his no-rolling celebrity students to black belt. I think one of his celebrity students may have gotten as high as purple, but I don't know if that individual was in the no-rolling class.
> 
> Rigan gets enough criticism from the BJJ community for the program as is. If he ever promotes any of his non-rollers to black belt, he will be absolutely excoriated by the entire community including other family members.



The purple belt you're referring to is most likely Ashton Kutcher.  He's a purple belt under Rigan Machado.  Some sources say he's a legit purple, despite arguably being promoted too quickly, other sources say he's a non-rolling guy.

This source implies he rolls...
Joe Rogan's Opinion on Ashton Kutcher's Controversial Purple Belt in Jiu-Jitsu

Others, which I can't find due to a lack of effort right now, have claimed he's a non-rolling guy.  Maybe he's a minimal rolling guy?

At the end of the day, it makes zero difference in my training.  I have the utmost respect for BJJ.  It's a fantastic art.  Having wrestled and coached for quite some time, it's not for me as I've grown a bit tired of the day to day grind of being on the mat.  I'd just hate to see it become McDojo-ized.


----------



## Headhunter (May 4, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Even if I was 15, still tho... lol


No I don't think you're 15 but you seem to have the mentality of a 15 year old


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 4, 2017)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> a black belt is a white belt who never gives up



Considering the fact that the belt might be black on the surface but is white underneath I would say that you're right. A black belt is just a white belt that's been dyed black. We're all white belts. Whatever color your belt is on the surface, its white underneath.


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## PhotonGuy (May 4, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Ed O'Neill (Al Bundy) earned his BB after working on it 22 years under Rorion Gracie.
> He never showed up on camera looking so wrecked that "makeup" could not make him camera ready.


Ed O'Neill got his BJJ black belt in 2007. It took him less than 22 years. By now he's been training for a little more than 22 years so he must've started sometime in the mid 90s. So it might've taken him 14 or 15 years to get it. If he got it under Rorion than he had to work hard for it.


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## JR 137 (May 4, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Considering the fact that the belt might be black on the surface but is white underneath I would say that you're right. A black belt is just a white belt that's been dyed black. We're all white belts. Whatever color your belt is on the surface, its white underneath.


 
What if what's under the outer material is also black?


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## TSDTexan (May 4, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Ed O'Neill got his BJJ black belt in 2007. It took him less than 22 years. By now he's been training for a little more than 22 years so he must've started sometime in the mid 90s. So it might've taken him 14 or 15 years to get it. If he got it under Rorion than he had to work hard for it.



You may be right. About 14 years, to BB, but rolling for 22.

Interesting vid:
Ed O’Neill Practices Jiu-Jitsu With Billy Bush!


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## PhotonGuy (May 4, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> What if what's under the outer material is also black?



I don't know if they make belts like that.


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## PhotonGuy (May 4, 2017)

So here is the video of the fellow who talks about how getting a black belt in BJJ really means something. Some people have disagreed with my earlier post about him well this is what he said not me so if you don't like it you can argue with him. Much of the video is about him chewing out somebody who claimed to be a BJJ black belt who wasn't, at 23:23 he talks about the difference between a BJJ black belt and a Karate black belt.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 5, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No I don't think you're 15 but you seem to have the mentality of a 15 year old



Cool story bro...


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## Headhunter (May 5, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Cool story bro...


Yep point proven


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## JR 137 (May 5, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't know if they make belts like that.



Either do I.  I think I'm going to start a new business making black belts with zero white and any other color anywhere in them.  Since you inspired the idea, I'll cut you in.  10%?


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> at 23:23 he talks about the difference between a BJJ black belt and a Karate black belt.



Doh...a BJJ black belt earnt his doing BJJ and karate black belt earnt his doing karate. why the comparison? Just more style bashing.


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## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Either do I.  I think I'm going to start a new business making black belts with zero white and any other color anywhere in them.  Since you inspired the idea, I'll cut you in.  10%?



The 10% cut is a nice offer but no thanks. I don't see why I would ever need to buy a belt from you. If and when I do earn a BJJ black belt I will be getting it from the school where I train.


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## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Doh...a BJJ black belt earnt his doing BJJ and karate black belt earnt his doing karate. why the comparison? Just more style bashing.



Well that's just his take on it.


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## CB Jones (May 5, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Either do I.  I think I'm going to start a new business making black belts with zero white and any other color anywhere in them.  Since you inspired the idea, I'll cut you in.  10%?



With blue tooth speakers embedded in it to play your walk up music.


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> The 10% cut is a nice offer but no thanks. I don't see why I would ever need to buy a belt from you. If and when I do earn a BJJ black belt I will be getting it from the school where I train.



You missed the point, he was saying he would cut you in for a percentage of the money made from selling the belts. All  instructors/clubs/schools buy belts from wholesalers/suppliers/makers so they can present them. When you get your BJJ belt someone has to make it, then buy it in order for it to be presented to you after you earn it.


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## oftheherd1 (May 5, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> *Yeah I hate that to. I get the theory by it but when someone says you only start learning at black belt...it makes no sense because you had to learn the stuff to get the belt*.,..a better saying would be you start learning /more/ about the basics as a black belt since when you get it there's not much new material to learn so you can focus the other stuff



Yep, I agree.  But it is especially so in the Hapkido I studied.  You learn new techniques, and variations and combinations at all belt levels, while keeping proficiency in what has already been learned.


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## JR 137 (May 5, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> The 10% cut is a nice offer but no thanks. I don't see why I would ever need to buy a belt from you. If and when I do earn a BJJ black belt I will be getting it from the school where I train.



I was saying I'll give you 10% of my sales, not 10% off your belt.  But that's ok, you just cut yourself out as a partner


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> With blue tooth speakers embedded in it to play your walk up music.



Real teeth would be good for when you are grappling....


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## JR 137 (May 5, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> With blue tooth speakers embedded in it to play your walk up music.



That could work


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## PhotonGuy (May 6, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I was saying I'll give you 10% of my sales, not 10% off your belt.  But that's ok, you just cut yourself out as a partner



Well I misunderstood you. But darn, I always love a good investment.


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## PhotonGuy (May 6, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Real teeth would be good for when you are grappling....



In the street, absolutely. Although I would be careful about sinking my teeth into some street thug, who knows what diseases he's got.


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## Tez3 (May 7, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> In the street, absolutely. Although I would be careful about sinking my teeth into some street thug, who knows what diseases he's got.



Oh it wouldn't be my teeth, it would be sharp animal teeth.


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## KenpoMaster805 (May 14, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Considering the fact that the belt might be black on the surface but is white underneath I would say that you're right. A black belt is just a white belt that's been dyed black. We're all white belts. Whatever color your belt is on the surface, its white underneath.



TRue dat because when your black belt get old it turns to white


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