# Pinan Shodan



## DKI Girl (Aug 7, 2002)

I would like to open a discussion on Pinan Shodan.....

Do you teach it?  
At what level do you teach it?

I have seen many styles not teach this kata til after black belt and many other styles teach it in the begining.  We teach it as the second kata that our students learn right after Naihanchi Shodan.

I really enjoy the Pinan katas and feel that there is a wealth of information in them just waiting to be discovered.  

dki girl


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## Matt Stone (Aug 7, 2002)

I learned a form called Heian Shodan once upon a time...  Aren't the Heian and Pinan forms the same, just named differently?

If that is the case, I can't fathom a system that would hold such a simple and basic form (I know _that_ comment could get me in trouble - I know there are plenty of applications in even the simplest forms, but c'mon... :idunno: ) until black belt level...

Enlighten me, please...  I am only a novice in karate, so a lot of this stuff is new to me.

Gambarimasu.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 7, 2002)

Pinan and Heian are indeed pretty much the same kata, though there are differences specific to the various styles that train them.  I first learned the version taught in TKD (no longer taught, though).  I believe the Korean name for the form is Pyung An.

Anyhow, the Shodan doesn't refer to the rank at which the kata is taught...it indicates the first Pinan form.  There are five Pinan/Heian forms, named shodan, nidan, sandan, yodan, and godan.  Essentially, it just means Pinan/Heian 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.  There may be some deep symbolic meaning to the names, but I was never made aware of them.

Similarly, there are the Naihanchi/Tekki forms, shodan, nidan, and sandan.  At least, I'm pretty sure there are three.  

Cthulhu


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> 
> *I would like to open a discussion on Pinan Shodan.....
> 
> ...



Yup, we teach it.
It is often taught after Pinan Nidan because Nidan has basically all the stances you will be taught in other kata and Nidan is a bit easier to learn than Shodan. As to when these kata are introduced is basically up to the teacher but is usually done just before or after Naihanchi 2 and 3.



> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> 
> *I have seen many styles not teach this kata til after black belt and many other styles teach it in the begining.  We teach it as the second kata that our students learn right after Naihanchi Shodan.
> dki girl *



I have never bought into the "advanced kata" basic kata" idea..............all kata are advanced as has been discussed somewhere around here. Some kata are just easier to learn than others.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 7, 2002)

I have heard nidan being taught before shodan. Who started this idea of nidan first.
Bob:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Anyhow, the Shodan doesn't refer to the rank at which the kata is taught...it indicates the first Pinan form.  There are five Pinan/Heian forms, named shodan, nidan, sandan, yodan, and godan.  Essentially, it just means Pinan/Heian 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.  There may be some deep symbolic meaning to the names, but I was never made aware of them.*



Pinan is Okinawan, in Chinese Ping An which means Safety..............there is a saying in Chinese "Yi Lu Ping An" which means travel in safety or literally "One road safety". I am sure there are all kinds of nuances connected with that saying but I find it ironic that Itosu said if you know the Pinans you can travel in safety.



> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Similarly, there are the Naihanchi/Tekki forms, shodan, nidan, and sandan.  At least, I'm pretty sure there are three.
> 
> Cthulhu *




Yup, 3 of them.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *I have heard nidan being taught before shodan. Who started this idea of nidan first.
> Bob:asian: *




I have no idea. 

I know the Japanese styles switched the names of the kata so their shodan is actually nidan in Okinawa.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 7, 2002)

In Ryu Te, is Pinan Shodan taught first. Followed by Nidan.
Bob :asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I have never bought into the "advanced kata" basic kata" idea..............all kata are advanced as has been discussed somewhere around here. Some kata are just easier to learn than others. *



Isn't it a bit of a stretch to apply this philosophy to Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan and really all five of this series? Yes there are certainly applications in them but they are _very_ simple forms. Surely they qualify as basic or relatively simple kata compared say to a Seiuchin or the like?


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 7, 2002)

I have seen and practiced this form  under 4 diffrent systems that I studied.  In the TKD system I learned it as my third form the first 3 being even more basic(simple front,horse, cat stance forms with a single punch, much like the Tekki Forms) .   
  In the other systems it was either the first or 2nd form . 
  A few diffrences occure from school to school and system to system but all are verry simular.
Shadow


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 7, 2002)

I have several tapes from Panther of this guy. He is one of Seikichi Odo people. Talk about some god awful bunkai. Know wonder people hate to do kata's or think they have nothing to do with real fighting. Has any one else seen these tapes.
Bob:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Isn't it a bit of a stretch to apply this philosophy to Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan and really all five of this series? Yes there are certainly applications in them but they are very simple forms. Surely they qualify as basic or relatively simple kata compared say to a Seiuchin or the like? *




Don't let looks deceive you, there is a lot of good "stuff" in those kata.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 8, 2002)

Is there somewhere to view a clip of it in motion?  I'm familiar with the Kenpo and Arnis forms, however its my understanding that they are quite a bit shorter than the Karate ones.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *I have several tapes from Panther of this guy. He is one of Seikichi Odo people. Talk about some god awful bunkai. Know wonder people hate to do kata's or think they have nothing to do with real fighting. Has any one else seen these tapes.
> Bob:asian: *



I don't know the guy you mentioned but Seikichi Odo was an excellent technician and had one hell of a punch.

One problem when a famous teachers dies is many nut cases claim to have studied from them.


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## Deathtrap101 (Aug 8, 2002)

Hey! i took home gold in my last tournament(my 2nd tournament(lost my first tournament doing pinan nidan, i lost balance ) doing pinan shodan. Good kata. Actualy i didnt really win with that kata, we had to do 2 and i was in 2nd with the first round behind by like .2 points and my next kata through me up there and i won.  Would of took home gold too but they gipped me....

 I am a yellow belt and to get orange pinan shodan is one of the requirements.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

Just noticed the Bruce Hielman" in the upper left hand corner.
Is that the person on the video you mentioned?


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

There are differences in the Pinnans between most groups, some are slight and some are big.

For example, the JKA , Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai and Shotokan versions are pretty similar where as the Wado versions especially Nidan is very different.
Why I don't know because Ohtsuka, founder of Wado, studied from Funakoshi so you would think they would have the same version.


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## kenmpoka (Aug 8, 2002)

Hello All,

There are two schools of taught as to the origin of these froms:

1) Devised by Anko Itosu from the Kata Kusanku (Koshokun, Kanku, Kwanku), to be introduced in the school system in Okinawa

2) Devised from a kata named Chanan. The research was done by Morio Higaonna Sensei of Goju Ryu.(more recent)

The order was switched by Gichin Funakoshi since the orginal pinan 1 was a more difficult kata than pinan 2. So original Pinan Shodan became Pinan Nidan on the mainland Japan and later renamed Heian Nidan. 

Most schools in Okinawa stayed with the original order but teach Nidan first  and then Shodan.

On the mainland though, some group have kept the original name (pinan) but follow the switched order, such as Wado Ryu.
Some Shito Ryu factions use Heian, and others like Hayashi-Ha use the pinan name.
Shotokan factions use the Heian name and follow the switched oder. Also Shindo Jinen Ryu follows the Shotokan order.

Though the techniques are simple, they can be expanded upon in oyo bunkai. Nidan, Sandan, yondan and godan have some interesting bunkai and oyo bunkai.

Now lets talk bunkai, shall we?

What do you think the application is for the first opening move in (original)Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan. Uchi ude uke/ Age uke?
or as some schools say: Soto ude uke/Age uke? I guess many possibilities. So let's hear some.

 :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *
> Now lets talk bunkai, shall we?
> ...



Basic interpretation...................It's a throw


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## kenmpoka (Aug 8, 2002)

.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

The opening sequence is an attack from behind, grab the hands, go over the head and throw to the ground.

It's hard to explain you will just have to try it and work with it for a bit or see it


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## kenmpoka (Aug 8, 2002)

How about grabbing the hands, then step behind the opponent's leg and throw him backward? ura nage/ushiro nage

Another: Grab the on coming punch, uppercut to the elbow joint, arm pit, or chin.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *How about grabbing the hands, then step behind the opponent's leg and throw him backward? ura nage/ushiro nage
> 
> ...




Where is he attacking from when you do this?


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## kenmpoka (Aug 8, 2002)

On the throw, from behind. On the punch, lets say from the side. It really doen't matter. We are not stuck with the enbusen.:asian:


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## kenmpoka (Aug 8, 2002)

On coming right punch, step back into Neko ashi/kokutsu dachi, apply the age uke, siding to the wrist, pulling as you do the uppercut with left hand.


:asian:


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## kenmpoka (Aug 8, 2002)

Hey, I was just promoted to yellow belt by Martial talk on the left corner. Does the rank changes with the number of posts?
If so cool.


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## arnisador (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Is there somewhere to view a clip of it in motion? *



We're basically talking about Anyo Isa.


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## arnisador (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> 
> *Hey, I was just promoted to yellow belt by Martial talk on the left corner. Does the rank changes with the number of posts?
> *



Yes:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1813


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> We're basically talking about Anyo Isa. *



Thats what the hubbub is about?  Thought it was something more detailed/complex. :shrug: Ah, at least I got the idea now.

danke.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Having just learned Anyo Isa not too long ago, it is still fresh in my memory...

What I remember of Heian Shodan (which, I am led to believe, is essentially the same kata), while similar in some respects, leads me to believe that there is similarity between it and Anyo Isa only in some of the footwork.  The hand techniques are all different.

Still trying to understand that whole "bolo punch" thing... 

Anyway...


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## arnisador (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *What I remember of Heian Shodan (which, I am led to believe, is essentially the same kata), while similar in some respects, leads me to believe that there is similarity between it and Anyo Isa only in some of the footwork.  The hand techniques are all different.*



Given that Kaith has no experience with karate but knows Anyo Isa I thought it was a good reference. Anyo Isa a Pinan form in Modern Arnis style, it seems to me--there are trapping hands in place of block-punches (and we also interpret trapping hands as a grappling technique sometimes), but it has the same basic pattern and the same relatively straight-forward block-punch feel. Well, I thought it was a good way to get the basic idea across.



> *
> Still trying to understand that whole "bolo punch" thing... *



Some people emphasize this more than others!


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## Matt Stone (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Some people emphasize this more than others! *



Yes, but only when I am really pissed off...  



Gambarimasu!


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## Chiduce (Aug 9, 2002)

I was taught the pinan shodan after fukyugata 1&2 katas. The fukyu kata's were the first the the matsumura seito taught. Pinan's came next. then we skipped around a bit to, weapons like the long pole, staff, sai, tonfa etc, to examine the same kata using weapons; then on to kibadachi and passai. 
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Matt Stone (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce
> 
> *The fukyu kata's...*_


_ 

I'm sorry, but when I read that I had this image of a guy from down south with a really heavy drawl standing in front of a panel of judges at a tournament shouting out:

MY NAME IS BILLY RAY DOE.

MY ART IS SUMTHIN' SUMTHIN' SUMTHIN' DO KAH RAH TAY.

MY FORM IS FUK YU SHOW DAN (pronounced like the name, not the belt rank).

No offense intended, Chiduce...  I know what the proper pronunciation likely is...  But the humor value could not be neglected...

:asian:  :lol: :lol:  :asian:

Gambarimasu._


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## Chiduce (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 OK that was a pretty good one!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 9, 2002)

I have to admit when I first heard the name of this kata years ago all I could think of was two "wise guys" doing karate and saying "fukyu kata"......."no, fukyu kata".............."ah faget about it"


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## Chiduce (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I have to admit when I first heard the name of this kata years ago all I could think of was two "wise guys" doing karate and saying "fukyu kata"......."no, fukyu kata".............."ah faget about it" *


 Yeah, it bugged me out too!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 16, 2002)

I have seen people show this as a finger tip strike to the solor plex area. Now I know the only damage this will cause, is for you to break your only fingers if you attempt this. I have been shown it to be a throw, and strike to soft tissue area, the throat, eyes, armpit area, and groin. Could this movement be the same or close to the Tai chi movement "Pick up needle from sea bottom". Any other thoughts on this movement. 
Bob :asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *Could this movement be the same or close to the Tai chi movement "Pick up needle from sea bottom".  *



It is somewhat reminscent of that technique! Applications of it have been discussed in our Tai Chi forum--I like the arm lock.

We often interpret the move you mention from Pinan Shodan as a "diving throw" in Modern Arnis, where you grab say his left wrist in your left hand from the outside and slide your right forearm across his chest with your right leg behind his left leg, throwing him backwards. It's hard to describe but works--it's similar to an application of Tai Chi's ward off.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *It is somewhat reminscent of that technique! Applications of it have been discussed in our Tai Chi forum--I like the arm lock.*



The way Needle at Sea Bottom is practiced in Yiliquan is not as a spear hand to the body at all...  Using the posture with the left foot forward and the right hand forward - the opponent grabs your right wrist in a standard grip, you secure his grip with your left hand over his and pull your hand up and back describing a large "C" in the air; hooking your hand around his wrist while having rotated his arm so that his elbow is pointing toward the ceiling, you drive the spearing hand down toward his feet.  This results in a wrist lock that is very painful, and when executed quickly will cause the opponent to go to his knees immediately.


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## arnisador (Aug 16, 2002)

Thr form of it I know also has the spear pointing down--but I do see the similarities.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Instead of throwing them backward. What if you drove the right arm down, throwing them forward instead. I call this arm bar throw. But could pick up needle from sea bottom be this also.
Bob   :asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 18, 2002)

I'm not sure I'm picturing this correctly--your right forearm on top of their left forearm, driving down? Is their palm up or down?


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 18, 2002)

Their Elbow should be pointed up toward the ceiling, palm faces down. i hope this helps the picture.
Bob


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## arnisador (Aug 18, 2002)

OK, I'm with you know! Yes, I have seen that application of it and like it. The diving throw is something common in Modern Arnis.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 18, 2002)

I have been going back through my Okinawa kata's, the Pinan's and Naihanchi and trying to use the Tai Chi movements to help with some of the Okinawa meanings.
Bob


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## Shinzu (Aug 24, 2002)

pinan shodan = hein shodan = pyong ahn cho dan.

i have always learned this form as the fourth form.  in shotokan & tsd there are 3 basic forms before shodan/cho dan are taught.

it is orange belt level.  even though it is very simple there are complex moves which teach different stances, blocks, and punches.

defenitley a beginners form in my opinion, but it takes years to master.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 28, 2002)

Was doing the Tai Chi /Okinawa comparsion. That opening movement could that be similar to Tai Chi's Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttles. Any Thoughts on this?
Bob:asian:


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## Deathtrap101 (Aug 28, 2002)

in our version the first move(when you turn to the left and make the 'c' with your arms). We turn left into a cat stance, raising the right hand above our heads and the inside to out fist is a block, then you pull the blocking hand in to the right side of your chest and the raised arm swings down and to what im to understand your smashing your jsut smashing your apponeents elbow.


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## George Martin (Aug 28, 2002)

The tai chi movement is similar however it is followed by needle at sea bottom.  It is also not done in back stance.  

The difference is probably in the application.  Or what you think is the proper application.  I would grab the right striking arm with my right hand and strike with my left.  The left arm of the opponent strikes, my left hand slides down the left arm grabs by the wrist and my right hand comes around and strikes the elbow joint from the outside.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 28, 2002)

I was looking at it more from the inside. As they attacker strikes with a hook punch or say impact weapon. moving in tight to their body deflecting the strike with the left hand as you strike with right hand.
Bob :asian:


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## Shinzu (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Deathtrap101 _
> 
> *in our version the first move(when you turn to the left and make the 'c' with your arms). We turn left into a cat stance, raising the right hand above our heads and the inside to out fist is a block, then you pull the blocking hand in to the right side of your chest and the raised arm swings down and to what im to understand your smashing your jsut smashing your apponeents elbow. *



isnt that the second form you are referring to?  pinan nidan / hein nidan / pyung ahn edan.

pinan shodan starts by turning left and performing a down block in front stance, followed by a right punch.

or are your forms switched around?


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 28, 2002)

No he is right the C movement is Pinan Shodan. Some people teach Nidan first this where you start with a down block. The reason is Nidan is easier than Shodan.
Bob:asian:


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## Shinzu (Aug 28, 2002)

ok im sorry.  what style is this?

in shotokan and tang soo do hein shodan / pyung ahn cho dan is the form i described above.  hein nidan / pyung ahn edan is the form you are discussing, with the rising and cross block.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 28, 2002)

Okinawa Kempo teaches Pinan Shodan ( the one with C movement) first and Pinan Nidan (the one with down block first) second. You can thank Gichin Funakoshi for this mess. He belived Nidan was easier than Shodan so he decided to switch the two kata's. Most Japanese MA teach it the way you decribed.
Bob :asian:


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## Shinzu (Aug 28, 2002)

funny but i think that your shodan is harder than your nidan.  more complex movements involved with your shodan.


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## Sensei Mike (Sep 23, 2002)

DKI Girl,

Care to revive this thread for an exchange of Pinan Shodan bunkai.

My Naihanchi bunkai are pretty good, but my Pinan Shodan are better. (I like to think that Itosu improved on the introductory kata, as Naihanchi was prior to the Pinans.) Also, I typed out some ideas some time ago, so I can do a post without too much effort.

If I had seen this post a week or so ago when I started the Naihanchi post, I probably would have skipped discussing Naihanchi and went straight to the Pinans, but I seem incapable of seeing all things in a list. Part of getting older, I guess.

How is this for a try. You pick the direction and I will describe a combination. With the exception of the last two directions, for which I have interpretations for kicks, I can use the movements against either right or left strikes. (Although the opening is primarily against a right strike.)

I think the kata can be viewed as 10 combinations in 9 directions. Left, right, back, front, side/corner, side/corner, back, back, side/corner, side/corner.

Just to keep us on the same page, perhaps you can describe your kata movements so I don't make any assumptions in case they are very different. I will probably ask for clarification.

Please let me know if you are interested.

I am interested any ideas you or others have to offer.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *Okinawa Kempo teaches Pinan Shodan ( the one with C movement) first and Pinan Nidan (the one with down block first) second. You can thank Gichin Funakoshi for this mess. He belived Nidan was easier than Shodan so he decided to switch the two kata's. Most Japanese MA teach it the way you decribed.
> Bob :asian: *




Your correct.
Most if not all Okinawan styles teach the "C" Pinan as Shodan and the other as Nidan. In Japan they are reversed.
I don't know why Funakoshi felt he needed to switch the names. I teach Nidan before Shodan because Nidan teaches more stances (Kiba, Nekko, Zenkutsu) with less difficult hand movements than Shodan (Nekko, Zenkutsu) .


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *Was doing the Tai Chi /Okinawa comparsion. That opening movement could that be similar to Tai Chi's Fair Lady Weaves with Shuttles. Any Thoughts on this?
> Bob:asian: *




Funny you should mention TaiChi and karate kata similarities.
When Yiliquan was in Japan we had this same discussion.........it was very interesting.
You might want to contact him about this.


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## Kempojujutsu (Sep 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



So RyuShiKan or Yiliquan What came of this discussion. Do you feel there is some similarities between Tai Chi forms and Okinawan kata. Would this help someone out on figuring bunkai out for different kata's?
Bob:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *
> 
> So RyuShiKan or Yiliquan What came of this discussion. Do you feel there is some similarities between Tai Chi forms and Okinawan kata.*




I would say there are more than a few similarities...............naturally the katas look different on the outside but many of the techniques are similar. 




> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> * Would this help someone out on figuring bunkai out for different kata's?
> Bob:asian: *



Maybe, depends on how you are looking at kata I guess. 

I first noticed the similarity back in 1985 when I was living in China. I started doing TaiChi and noticed some of the moves seem to fit between the two arts. So I asked my teacher if a certain move could have this or that application and he looked at me kind of shocked and said  "yes, but how did you know that?" . I explained to him that I didn't but in karate there is an almost identical technique. 
Kind of freaked both of us out.


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## chufeng (Sep 23, 2002)

Kempojujitsu,

The origins of Okinawan Karate come directly from Fujien Shaolin...

It is well documented by the old Okinawan teachers...

T'ai Chi Ch'uan (taijiquan) is a refinement of (or, at least was influenced by) Shaolin boxing...YiLiQuan1 will argue this point in that he believes the monks were really just that (pacifists) monks and that the real boxing arts came from those who used the Temple as a refuge...I don't really care...bottom line is that many arts CAN tie their history to China.

Some of the staunch internal proponents believe that T'ai Chi developed separately from the other boxing arts...I don't want to argue over that point...the question was about the similarities in application of movements that look the same.

Just the other day YiLiQuan1 was working a drill out of our first form TiYiKuanNien...I told him the application came straight out of Naihanchi Shodan (being the skeptic that he is, he argued with me)...so I asked him to do Naihanchi Shodan and stopped him when he came to the movement...he got the point. Our TiYiKuanNien form is from BaiXingQuan (a closed door (an underground society practiced this art) system determined to overthrow the Ch'ing) which is a Shaolin system...since Naihanchi was actually one large form broken down to three smaller forms originally derived from Shaolin, it is NOT a surprise to see the similarities...

The further you get away from the root, however, the stranger things look...the less they look like the root and take on their own feeling...hence the Japanese karate systems and the Korean systems derived from those same Japanese systems...

...am I rambling, or does this make any sense?

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> * Kempojujitsu,
> 
> The origins of Okinawan Karate come directly from Fujien Shaolin... *




Yes and no. While the more famous katas of today are no doubt a variation on the Shaolin system there is also an art on Okinawa called Te which is believed to be separate from the Shaolin inspired styles. It is very rare and not many in, let alone outside, Okinawa know it and can do it. In fact I have heard more westerners claim to practice this art than Okinawans.........since Mark Bishop's book came out with a mention of it, it has become the new "buzz word" among certain groups. Kind of like when tuite and kyusho hit the bookshelves.......everyone was teaching it the next day.

There is a member of this BB that claims to practice Okinawa Te and I have PM on several occasions asking about it but he doesn't seem to want to discuss it. 



> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> * ...since Naihanchi was actually one large form broken down to three smaller forms originally derived from Shaolin, it is NOT a surprise to see the similarities...*




I have heard several theories about Naihanchi being one long kata and then cut up into 3 pieces, previously practiced in a straight line, someone invented Nidan, and Sandan etc.
All of them sound fairly reasonable and I don't discount any of them but one thing is true..........they are too similar to many of the Shaolin concepts and techniques to not have been connected to China in some way.


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## Matt Stone (Sep 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *T'ai Chi Ch'uan (taijiquan) is a refinement of (or, at least was influenced by) Shaolin boxing...YiLiQuan1 will argue this point in that he believes the monks were really just that (pacifists) monks and that the real boxing arts came from those who used the Temple as a refuge...I don't really care...bottom line is that many arts CAN tie their history to China.*



I won't disagree about the historical ties to Shaolin that many arts claim to possess...  It is just the _who_ involved in the creation of their arts that I cast a questioning eye towards... 



> *Just the other day YiLiQuan1 was working a drill out of our first form TiYiKuanNien...I told him the application came straight out of Naihanchi Shodan (being the skeptic that he is, he argued with me)*



I didn't mean to sound argumentative...  The drill we were working was movement for movement identical to a section from our form.  I just didn't know which section of the form Chufeng was referring to as having the same application...  So...



> *...so I asked him to do Naihanchi Shodan and stopped him when he came to the movement...he got the point.*



The techniques are quite different visually, but in their application they are quite similar.

Kempojujutsu - 

I once said that in one night training in RyuTe Karate with RyuShiKan, I learned more about Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua than I had in years...  I meant what I said.  Not once did RyuShiKan say "Well, in Taiji they do it like this," or anything like that whatsoever.  The techniques he was showing me, and leading me to understand, simply rang large chapel bells in my pointy little head, and I had epiphany after epiphany realizing the truth in the phrase "All are One."

Gambarimasu.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 26, 2002)

I have posted a URL to a website on this thread "Naihanchi 1,2,3 "New Discussion" " that has all the Pinan katas being performed.

There are several other well known katas on that website as well.


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## Sensei Mike (Sep 27, 2002)

> In referring to the opening of Pinan Shodan, Kempojujutsu stated:
> I was looking at it more from the inside. As they attacker strikes with a hook punch or say impact weapon. moving in tight to their body deflecting the strike with the left hand as you strike with right hand.



I practice a similar combination. I put the attacker in front, and my counterclockwise pivot allows me to generate a lot of power for my left block. The move into cat stance, allows me to pull off the line as well. Then there are two follow-up strikes that I direct to the neck. I use the next series of movements in the kata to finish the opponent with an armbar, a strike to the neck, a takedown and a finishing kick. I can give more detail if you like.


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## Sensei Mike (Sep 27, 2002)

> Yiliquan1 stated:
> I once said that in one night training in RyuTe Karate with RyuShiKan, I learned more about Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua than I had in years... I meant what I said. Not once did RyuShiKan say "Well, in Taiji they do it like this," or anything like that whatsoever. The techniques he was showing me, and leading me to understand, simply rang large chapel bells in my pointy little head, and I had epiphany after epiphany realizing the truth in the phrase "All are One."



Regarding my training, I have been lucky to study under a diverse community. Just a couple of weeks back I trained for the first time with Dan Inasanto of Jeet Kun Do/Kali-PMA and I too experienced the large bells. I get lots of opportunites to train in Judo, Tai Chi, Shoalin Kung Fu, Jiu Jitsu, Chi Na and many others. IMHO, there are far more commonalities than differences across the many disparate arts.


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## lucifersdad (Apr 20, 2003)

pinan nidan, hmmmm, definatley a important kata to learn at an early stage.
ive been teaching and training in wado ryu karate for 10 years or so and i don't know a wado club that doesnt teach it!
for those wondering why nidan and shodan seem to be in the wrong order, i beleive it goes back too o-sensei otsuka, he beleived it was easier to learn and an easier way to introduce new stance, technique etc.....
so after parting ways with funakoshi sensei he decided to change it, or so i was told by tatsou suzuki (9th dan wado ryu).
if this is wrong will someone tell me cos its the only explaination i've heard, cheers


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lucifersdad _
> *
> for those wondering why nidan and shodan seem to be in the wrong order, i beleive it goes back too o-sensei otsuka, he beleived it was easier to learn and an easier way to introduce new stance, technique etc..... *



Actually it was Funakoshi that changed the order/names of Pinan 1 & 2. He did it because he believed it was easier for people to learn the "real" Pinan 2 before the "real" Pinan 1.
Ohtsuka only studied with Funakoshi for about 14 months.


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## Shinzu (Apr 20, 2003)

i believe funakoshi had it right.  it is easier to learn them that way in my opinion.  pinan (hein) shodan is more basic, while pinan (hein) nidan is a little more complex.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *i believe funakoshi had it right.  it is easier to learn them that way in my opinion.  pinan (hein) shodan is more basic, while pinan (hein) nidan is a little more complex. *




Just as a note of clarificationPinan 1 in Okinawa is actually Heian 2 in Japan and Heian 1 in Japan is Pinan 2 in Okinawa.

Long ago students were taught stances extensively first then moved on to more advanced things. 
Supposedly Funakoshi taught Pinan 2 (Heian 1 in Japan) first in Japan because it had more stances, Zenkutsudachi, Nekoashidachi, & Kibadachi, students could therefore learn the stances by actually doing them. Plus it had somewhat easier hand movements than Pinan 1.


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## Field Cricket (Apr 23, 2003)

I recently started doing Taijiquan and a bit of Xingyi, and I was struck by how it made sense of so many of the Shotokan kata I studied many years ago. I would go so far as to recommend that if there is a martial arts oriented Taijiquan school near you and you do karate, train there for a while and be pleasantly surprised.

On a related note, am I right in thinking that the opening 'yoi' movement for karate kata is a militarised remnant of the 'universal breath' movement?

FC


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Field Cricket _
> *I recently started doing Taijiquan and a bit of Xingyi, and I was struck by how it made sense of so many of the Shotokan kata I studied many years ago. I would go so far as to recommend that if there is a martial arts oriented Taijiquan school near you and you do karate, train there for a while and be pleasantly surprised.
> 
> On a related note, am I right in thinking that the opening 'yoi' movement for karate kata is a militarised remnant of the 'universal breath' movement?
> ...




Funny............I noticed the exact same thing while studying Taichi in Taiwan.  
The Taichi teacher and I compared "notes" on technique and at the end of it all had a greater understanding and respect for what each other did.


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## yilisifu (Apr 23, 2003)

I just had a similar discussion with some of my students last night.  The traditional Okinawan forms and techniques are much closer to the Chinese methods than most people think.  In many ways, they're identical.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *I just had a similar discussion with some of my students last night.  The traditional Okinawan forms and techniques are much closer to the Chinese methods than most people think.  In many ways, they're identical. *




Yiliquan1 and I did some comparing of notes as well and came to some pretty interesting conclusions...........hopefully he can come back this summer so we can do more.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 23, 2003)

I'm hoping to be able to make it back in August...   That is what I am shooting for, anyway.

My wife is supposed to start working for a local airline in June, and one of the benefits is free (or _seriously_ reduced) fares.  I could literally fly back and forth, round trip, for nothing at all!

That will make frequent trips a regular thing!

Anyway, I am also hoping for August so I can attend Bon Odori "back home."


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## aricept (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu_
> *I have several tapes from Panther of this guy. He is one of Seikichi Odo people. Talk about some god awful bunkai. Know wonder people hate to do kata's or think they have nothing to do with real fighting. Has any one else seen these tapes.
> Bob*



I haven't seen the videos you mention, but I have seen some of his weapons videos.  I've also met and been judged by Heilman Sensei.  He's a great person.  I can't comment on his skill, as I've only seen him teach a few basic techniques.  But the lack of quality in his videos may stem from this:  all of his videos were filmed in one day, and he was quite sick.  He apparently even announces a kata name incorrectly on one of the weapons videos.



> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I don't know the guy you mentioned but Seikichi Odo was an excellent technician and had one hell of a punch.
> 
> One problem when a famous teachers dies is many nut cases claim to have studied from them. *



Heilman did study from Odo, quite extensively.  He made frequent visits to the Heilman dojo, and there was a room set aside in the Heilman household for him.  Heilman is currently the head of the International Karate-Kobudo Federation ( http://www.ikkf.org ), and there is a picture of Heilman and Odo at http://www.ikkf.org/odo-memorial.html

Copies of his rank certificates, as well as lists of various achievements can be found at http://www.ikkf.org/cbh-resume.html

I'm not a student of Heilman's - I just figured I'd let you know the man is legit.  

Now, as to Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan/Pyong An Eedan...  I do the Pyong An form, the Korean one.  We actually use a set of 6 very, very simplistic "intro" forms before the Pyong Ans just to get the student used to the varied movements of the forms.  By the time the student is introduced to these they are ready to start thinking about applications, rather than just movements.

There are a host of possible interpretations for the opening movements.  As someone already said, a throw is possible, as are various elbow and shoulder locks.  Personally, I use the rising arm to block an incoming attack - it can be from any angle if you move correctly, but for purposes of the form it will be from the side - and, if possible, slide the hand to the wrist and pull as the left hand perfoms a hammer fist strike to the soft tissues of the underarm.  From here you can follow up with an upset punch to the same region and then a jab to the face, or the joint locks refernce earlier.  Probably will depend on how you choose to fight.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aricept _
> *Heilman did study from Odo, quite extensively.  He made frequent visits to the Heilman dojo, and there was a room set aside in the Heilman household for him.  Heilman is currently the head of the International Karate-Kobudo Federation ( http://www.ikkf.org ), and there is a picture of Heilman and Odo at http://www.ikkf.org/odo-memorial.html
> 
> Copies of his rank certificates, as well as lists of various achievements can be found at http://www.ikkf.org/cbh-resume.html
> ...



The word extensively has different meanings to different people..especially in the MA world. 
Pictures with famous Masters carry little weight with me.
I know a guy that is Mr. Photo Op and gets his photo taken with everyone and then claims he trained extensively with them.
Mind you I am not saying Heilman didnt train with Odo..I dont care one way or another since it is none of my business.
What I am saying is dont be fooled by dan ranks and photo ops. 
This, unfortunenately is the way of the new breed that needs bloated ranks and photos with celebrities to vend their goods to the masses.
Dan ranks can be easily faked by the way. There is a section on MT about a guy that has a boat load of them. I looked at the jpegs of them and laughed my butt off at the poor quality of the forgery. 
Technique talks and BS walks.


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## vin2k0 (Apr 30, 2003)

We teach Pinan Shodan at orange belt, the third kata ever learnt... after pinan nidan. although at black belt level the kata is broken down and put under the magnifying glass...


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