# What weapons are these?



## Laevolus (Aug 5, 2002)

I need to ask the collective inteelect of everyone on here.....what weapon are these?

Dual Sticks 

For those who don't know it, the screengrab is from the recent Jet Li film, Kiss Of the Dragon and it's from the scene where Jet has to fight the room full of police officers training in MA.

What I want to know, is what the dual stick weapons he's using are called and what style uses them most. Its it Chinese? Japanese? Or a different country altogether?

Thanks in advance.

Laev.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2002)

Without having seen the techniques inmotion, I can hazzard a guess that it may be Fillipino in origin, posibly Escrima or Arnis.  Our FMA members may be able to better pin down the style.

:asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2002)

Sorry, the picture is too dark for me to amke them out.


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## Laevolus (Aug 5, 2002)

Didn't realise it was that dark. I must have the brightness quite high on my monitor 

Anyway, I've taken some larger screengrabs and uploaded them for people to you have a look at, although it was difficult to due to fast editiing and the speed of the actors in the film.

Pic 1 
Pic 2 
Pic 3 
Pic 4 
Pic 5 
Pic 6 

Hope those are a bit better 

Laev


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## Blindside (Aug 5, 2002)

Would you get mad at me if I called them sticks?  

If I remember the movie correctly that is supposed to be inside a french police station, so I'll call them "nightsticks" though they really look too long.  Of course I've never seen a police station with a room full of blackbelts either.

Just off of initial appearances I would guess escrima/arnis/kali (Fillipino martial arts) but given Jet Li's background I wouldn't discount the adaption of double chinese broadsword work to stickwork either.  

I'd have to rewatch it to make a better determination, and well thats just not going to happen.

Lamont


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 5, 2002)

We use sticks like those in our kobudo but call them "tanbo". Some might say they are the same as FMA but we actually use them a bit differently.






> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Without having seen the techniques inmotion, I can hazzard a guess that it may be Fillipino in origin, posibly Escrima or Arnis.  Our FMA members may be able to better pin down the style.
> 
> :asian: *




I have heard that Escrima and Arnis are the same thing just different Filipono dialects...........is that true?

I have also heard they don't use the word Kali in the Filipines........is that true?


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## Kirk (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I have heard that Escrima and Arnis are the same thing just different Filipono dialects...........is that true?
> 
> I have also heard they don't use the word Kali in the Filipines........is that true? *



I'm curious about this one myself.


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I have heard that Escrima and Arnis are the same thing just different Filipono dialects...........is that true?*



Pretty much--different terms are used in different regions. Pananandata is another term that is used.



> *
> I have also heard they don't use the word Kali in the Filipines........is that true? *



Yes, this is so. Kali is not a term they use.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 5, 2002)

So I am wondering why do some people use kali to describe Arnis/Escrima?


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## Matt Stone (Aug 5, 2002)

Because Americans will buy anything if it is packaged correctly?

From the reading I have done, it seems that it is common for folks to go to the P.I. asking to be taught something - and there are more than enough folks willing to teach whatever it is that is being asked for...  whether it exists or not!

I also understand that _dumog_ is another American Filipino term that is used extensively in the US, but not at all in the P.I.

Go figure.

"Would you teach me pananandata kali dumog?"

"Sure!  I don't know what the hell you are talking about, but sure!"


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## Laevolus (Aug 5, 2002)

It seems that I have an answer now so I'll say thanks to everyone and look for some good info on the styles mentioned.

Cheers again for that.

Laev.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 5, 2002)

here is the sticks photo brightened up a bit.


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *Because Americans will buy anything if it is packaged correctly?
> *



Indeed, this is how I have heard the story about kali.



> *I also understand that dumog is another American Filipino term that is used extensively in the US, but not at all in the P.I.*



I have heard that it does not mean wrestling for self-defense there but something more akin to 'rassling livestock, that is, something like what a cowboy would do. The term _is_ commonly used here though.


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *here is the sticks photo brightened up a bit. *



Very helpful, thanks. They look like non-descript sticks to me. Hard to say how they were used.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Very helpful, thanks. They look like non-descript sticks to me. Hard to say how they were used. *




Off hand guess...............the ancient art of "Movie Style".


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## sweeper (Aug 6, 2002)

they are just sticks..  you could call them truncheons (sp?) but you pritty much swing em at people..  I wasn't to impressed with that movie, in that scene the movement he used could have been anything, I think RyuShiKan is probably correct..


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## knifeman.dk (Aug 6, 2002)

As for Dumog I heard the story of the local Dumogueros - a sort of local island sherif.
This guy would be called in to solve trouble at local festivals. He would be a short broad type training with the waterbuffalos wrestling them to the ground. 
I teach Dumog at the Danish Arnis Federation as part of the Arnis curriculum. We practise offbalance, breaking rythm, and 6 different entries with takedowns - not like judo. 
sincerely knifeman.dk
:asian:


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## Laevolus (Aug 6, 2002)

> Off hand guess...............the ancient art of "Movie Style".



Heh, guess I should have spotted that 

Is asking about things from movies a no-no then?

I know it's not even remotely realistic stuff in the movies, but I thought there may have been some basis in reality for this particular style. I've seen similar movements in other films, although I must admit most of those have been US based films such as early Seagal movies.

Cheers, 
Laev.


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## arnisador (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Laevolus _
> 
> *Is asking about things from movies a no-no then? *



It's fine; you may also use the Sports Entertainment  forum for this purpose.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## sweeper (Aug 6, 2002)

there's nothing wrong with asking about stuff in movies it's just alot f the stuff in movies is modified to better suit the situation (situation is an actor trying to look good on film) so it's hard to tell exactly where it came from, also because movie fights are practiced kinda like a dance and they try to encorperate certain moves for flash (remember that double jointlock disarm jet li did to those two guys (think it was Sticks4.jpg)) it kinda stops looking like what ever art it's supposed to be.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 6, 2002)

One of the few movies that I have ever seen that had a real display of martial arts was "The Bad News Bears Go to Japan". In it there was a scene where they showed karate and the people were actually doing Naihanchi Shodan.


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## Master of Blades (Aug 11, 2002)

Escrima and Arnis are derived from Kali which itself is derived from Penkat Silat. Those are just Sticks used for training in all of those forms. There only about £7 for a good pair and thats what me and loads of other Kali practicioners use for doing the drills when we cant use the sword of others.


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## sweeper (Aug 11, 2002)

well those looked like painted hardwood, most kali practitioners use rattan I think.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> 
> *Escrima and Arnis are derived from Kali which itself is derived from Penkat Silat.*



I think you may have your information slightly skewed...

According to Mark Wiley in his books on Filipino martial arts, the FMA are all essentially indiginous arts with little significant difference from each other.  He seemed to theorize that Arnis was the more indiginous of the three, with Escrima having a good amount of influence from Spanish occupation forces, and Kali (while being a term _not_ actually used in the P.I.) having more Indonesian and Chinese influence.

Ultimately, however, one art did not necessarily "evolve" from the others in such a linear fashion as you describe...

Just my 2 yen...  I am still new in the whole FMA field, so my research continues...

:asian:

Gambarimasu.


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## arnisador (Aug 11, 2002)

I'd agree with Mr. Stone about the history of the FMA, though all the arts have a strong Spanish influence and some have a definite Indochinese influence. As to the rattan, that's for training to rpevent tennis elbow (really) for you and heavy hits for your partner. Heavier woods are used for combat.


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## sweeper (Aug 12, 2002)

well I have taken a "light" hit from a hard wood stick and all I can say is I'm glad it wasn't to a finger..  I would not make training with hard wood a regular thing unless you were wearing gloves and eye protection.

(edit) forgot to post about FMA origins.

Well I have seen various forms of "kali" "escrima" and "arnis" prcticed and I have got to say that it all looks very simular, to say they are diffrent arts I think can be misleading, it's more like the diffrences you would see between two diffrent schools in some cases. I was wondering, is this due to the resistance in WWII ? I know that FMA went under alot of change in world war two but I'm not 100% sure what it all was. My instructor told me that the tactics were changed to deal with the japanese swordsmen? And does anyone know what FMA looked like pre-WWII ?


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## Master of Blades (Aug 12, 2002)

Hmmmmm, Im not so sure. Doesnt matter there will always be loads of differant ideas of how each art and each form came around. Im just saying what Dan Inasanto said in one of his speeches. But if I was wrong excuse me. :asian:


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## Master of Blades (Aug 12, 2002)

Also about the whole training with hardwood stuff. Most of the hard hits are to the arms and forearms so you get used to it


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## sweeper (Aug 12, 2002)

yeah but all it will take is one hit to the hand to break something, and hardwoods bounce diffrent than rattan, I'd probably put out my own eye off a rebound


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