# BJJ whats the difference?



## OC Kid (Jul 9, 2004)

As a stand up fighter I hear a lot about BJJ. But whats the difference between BJJ and Japanese JJ? A friend tells me there is no difference. I dont really know. I went to a submissions tournament and I couldnt tell the difference between BJJ, Japanese JJ and Wrestling. They all looked the same to me. I couldnt tell the difference.


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## Marginal (Jul 9, 2004)

Depends on the school as much as anything else. Usually JJ focuses more on stand up grappling vs the groundfighitng that BJJ has evolved to focus on.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 9, 2004)

The biggest difference is in the training method. The majority of JJJ schools practice locks and strikes on compliant partners. BJJ practices locks and chokes by actually grappling full out until one person is forced to give up due to joint lock or choke.


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## OC Kid (Jul 10, 2004)

Then the techniques are the same?? It just in the training methods???


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 10, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Then the techniques are the same?? It *just* in the training methods???


Just?  What is the difference between a flag football weekend warrior, and a pro NFL linebacker? The training methods, largely. Makes all the difference in the world chasing down some guy who knows your tricks and his own, and is working strenuously to prevent you from submitting him, while simultaneously trying to entangle you in a submission. What is the difference between looking at a person on a roller coaster, and watching someone on a roller coaster? JJJ is more ritualized; partners training, in which pre-set attack patterns and responses are played with.  BJJ and Judo rely heavily on the concept of randori...active, competitive wrestling with great athleticism. That "just" makes all the difference in the word.

D.


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## tmanifold (Jul 10, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> The biggest difference is in the training method. The majority of JJJ schools practice locks and strikes on compliant partners. BJJ practices locks and chokes by actually grappling full out until one person is forced to give up due to joint lock or choke.




Totally wrong. JJJ is similar to saying karate, it means almost nothing without clarification. When someone refers to Koryu Jujutsu they tend to mean older styles of JJ that generally aim to transmit the art rather than compete or fight. Some styles of JJJ look closer to aikido with wrist locks and some look more like BJJ or judo.

BJJ is not a Jujutsu in the Koryu sense. BJJ is decended from Judo which around the time Carlos Gracie learned it was sometimes called Kano Jujutsu. The techniques of BJJ are almost the same as Early kodokan judo. The difference being the emphasis on the ground game. It is similar to Kosen judo in that regard, although to my knowledge there is no connection.


The main difference between BJJ and JJJ is the formers emphasis on ground game and the removal of overly dangerous techniques that it inherited from judo. Because it was derived from judo, it also benefited from Kano's sythesis of many older JJ styles, so it does have a lot of the "fluff".

Tony


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## hedgehogey (Jul 10, 2004)

tmanifold said:
			
		

> Totally wrong. JJJ is similar to saying karate, it means almost nothing without clarification. When someone refers to Koryu Jujutsu they tend to mean older styles of JJ that generally aim to transmit the art rather than compete or fight. Some styles of JJJ look closer to aikido with wrist locks and some look more like BJJ or judo.


Right. BUT the MAJORITY of JJJ schools don't practice by live grappling. 



> BJJ is not a Jujutsu in the Koryu sense. BJJ is decended from Judo which around the time Carlos Gracie learned it was sometimes called Kano Jujutsu. The techniques of BJJ are almost the same as Early kodokan judo. The difference being the emphasis on the ground game. It is similar to Kosen judo in that regard, although to my knowledge there is no connection.


Read "mastering jujitsu". Maeda learned quite a few other styles, including a groundfighting JJJ style and wrestling.


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## gusano (Jul 10, 2004)

tmanifold said:
			
		

> Because it was derived from judo, it also benefited from Kano's sythesis of many older JJ styles, so it does have a lot of the "fluff".Tony


I agree with the post overall but would you clarify what you mean by "fluff"?
Also, jiu-jitsu was taught to Carlos Gracie Sr. by Maeda not Kano. Maeda was a student of Kano's at one time. Maeda called what he taught Carlos Sr "jiu-jitsu", a generic term in Japan as you pointed out. It was definately influenced by Kano but the Brasilians have added MANY techniques that are not used in Judo. The techniques Maeda added were what he used in the many challenge matches he fought all over the world and were not a part of Judo randori.


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## tmanifold (Jul 10, 2004)

Oops. I meant to say "does not have the fluff". By fluff I mean some of the unworkable techniques or techniques with a little reward to work ratio.


> Also, jiu-jitsu was taught to Carlos Gracie Sr. by Maeda not Kano.


Yup. Its still judo though. Compare the two styles at the time Carlos gracie was learning it. Thats not a bad thing. Judo of that time was (and is) one of the most effective styles ever. BJJ just went one way while modern judo went another.

I will admit I don't have an extremely high knowledge of BJJ. But I have a pretty decent one and I have yet to see something that can't be found in the early judo styles. They are done slighty different, especially the GJJ on account of Helio's size, but they are still Old school judo.

I would be interested in some examples.


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## gusano (Jul 10, 2004)

I would direct you to the book 'Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory and Technique, by Renzo and Royler Gracie if you have not already read it. Specifically the theory portion of the book. Maeda had studied classical jiu-jitsu previous to Judo. When Maeda was fighting challenge matches, they were not limited to grappling. He modifed his Judo with his previous jiu-jitsu curriculum to include techniques not allowed in judo training. He insisted on calling it jiu-jitsu and it's believed that he did this because fighting challenge matches went against the Kodokans moral code. His challenge matches were vale tudo, *not *judo matches. What Maeda taught Carlos Sr. was a fighting art, not a sport version of submission grappling. The most important thing that Maeda taught him came from his judo training though, and that was the need for live training or randori. 

In judo, only strangleholds and attacks to the elbow joint were allowed. Pressure to the face is illegal. Modern BJJ has leglocks, ankle locks, foot locks, hip locks, shoulder locks, neck cranks, cross faces. These are all techniques the Gracies explored _after Maeda_. In judo, if you are getting armlocked or triangled by a guy on the bottom, all you have to do is standup and the ref restarts you on your feet. In BJJ, you continue to attack the arm or neck regardless of whether the opponent stands or not. This meant techniques to defend armlocks and triangles from the bottom had to be developed to defend because standing up wouldn't save you. In judo, emphasis is placed on throws and not ground grappling. BJJ sought to bring the fight to the ground to disarm the striker and keep the fight on the ground until it was finished. This emphasis on ground grappling bore techniques other than just submissions. Escapes, sweeps, reversals, etc.  

The strict moral code of the kodokan prohibited challenge matches. Carlos Sr advertised in the newspaper for fights. The Gracie challenge exists to this day and it's results have defined what is trained and what isn't. Today, in modern MMA, competitiors are versed in groundfighting and at the very _least _have trained takedown defense. It would be nothing short of retarded to fight vale tudo with no ground skills or at least defenses. BJJ is *NOT* the end all answer to fighting or martial arts! People should practice whatever art they want. Any art that is serious about being able to use it to fight *HAS* to include grappling to some degree. This can be done in addition to training whatever it is you already train. I would not recommend that someone desiring to fight vale tudo receive all of their training from me. I would recommend that they train some muy thai with a reputable muy thai academy. I would urge them to train some wrestling and judo for takedowns and takedown defense. I would recommend training some boxing and kickboxing to compliment the muy thai and I would only recommend that they train with me for groundfighting and the ability to end the fight. I believe this would make that person a well rounded fighter and hard to beat. It would not however make him bullet proof.


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## tmanifold (Jul 12, 2004)

> In judo, only strangleholds and attacks to the elbow joint were allowed. Pressure to the face is illegal. Modern BJJ has leglocks, ankle locks, foot locks, hip locks, shoulder locks, neck cranks, cross faces.



Jointlocks were not restricted to the elbow joint until 1925 and many schools still taught the old style up into the 1950s. IIRC Meada was in Brazil around 1915-20. He would still have learned the old locks. Also look at sambo, another art with judo as its parent. It is famous for its leg locks. They come from judo.

BJJ has taken ground fighting to a higher level but the foundation is still judo. Many jujutsu, both Japanese and brazilian have judo as their root.

Oh, also

[qoute]The strict moral code of the kodokan prohibited challenge matches.[/quote] 

Challenge matches were plentiful in the early days of judo. The original Shai's (competions) were closer to the original word shi-ni-ai; to symbolically meet death itself. They were fundementally the same as the gracie challenge matches except they had to hide them in humilty where as the gracies made no such attempt.

Tony

Tony


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 13, 2004)

tmanifold said:
			
		

> Jointlocks were not restricted to the elbow joint until 1925 and many schools still taught the old style up into the 1950s. IIRC Meada was in Brazil around 1915-20. He would still have learned the old locks. Also look at sambo, another art with judo as its parent. It is famous for its leg locks. They come from judo.
> 
> BJJ has taken ground fighting to a higher level but the foundation is still judo. Many jujutsu, both Japanese and brazilian have judo as their root.
> 
> ...


Challenge matches were plentiful in the early days of judo. The original Shai's (competions) were closer to the original word shi-ni-ai; to symbolically meet death itself. They were fundementally the same as the gracie challenge matches except they had to hide them in humilty where as the gracies made no such attempt.

Tony

Tony[/QUOTE] 
Tony:  you're one of the few other guys I've heard of who knew about this. There was an arnis fighter from the Phillipines in world war 2 named Sam Tendencia, who traveled to Japan to study judo, karate, and body massage and bone/joint manipulation healing methods. Due to his fascination with ping pong, and fast became friends with the post-war head of the Kodokan (kanos primary successor), and they had the ritual of playing ping png every morning, EVEN AS CHALLENGE MATCH GUYS LINED UP OUTSIDE WAITING FOR A CHANCE TO TEST THEIR SKILOLS AGAINST THE REIGNING KODOKAN CHAMPION/HEAD INSTRUCTOR! Sam jovially recounted stories about scores of guys coming from around the world for a challenge match, and the Kodokan master making them wait while finishing his games of pin-pong.

Sam was notorious for chuckling during these stories. Said the Judo master never worried about the outcome of the matches, as he knew he was better prepared and disciplined than any of the comers.

Little known historical fact that the Kodokan had days wherein the halls were filled with guys who had come to prove themselves, and sensei would mow them all down, one after the other, much the same way Rickson wades through a crowd of challengers each time he consucts an open seminar.

D


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## ARNIS (Mar 1, 2006)

I am new to the forum but stumbled across this post.
Forgive me for resurrecting an old post.

Challenge matches were common in the Kodokan according to Sam.

The story of master Sam Tendencia is true.  Lt. Sam and his men captured and spared the life of the Emporer's son in WWII in which Sam earned an invitation from the Emporer himself to study in Japan after the War.  Sam chose to pursue Physical Fitness at the Kodokan in 1952-3 (I forget the exact year) Sam graduated with a 5th Dan (Instructor rank) in 1957.  In that time Sam also studied Jiu-Jitsu. Where he attained a Masters ranking.  Had his Kodokan instructors found out Sam was cross training, they would have dismissed him from the Kodokan. While attending the Kodokan, Sam became the favorite student of 10th Dan Kyuzo Mifune. Yes is was ping-pong that drew the two together. 

My brother and I are students of Master Sam Tendencia from 1979-1993.  
We hold the following ranks
Instructors Arnis (2nd & 4th black) I am a 2nd black. My brother 4th Black
FYI: A.R.N.I.S Stands for "American Revised Native Institute of Stick Fighting"
1st Dan Kodokan Judo
Black Belt Jiu Jitsu
We did not study Karate because Sam said Arnis was better.  I am not agreeing with him but at the time it made sense and hey the lessons were free.

My brother and I have also studied BJJ 1995-2002.  Since we were very part time we achieved the rank of 2nd Purple.  

Sam would tell us that Judo and Jiu-Jitsu were the same or very similar.
In the original book "The Cannon of Judo" I saw many Grappling techniques that are also used in BJJ.
Sam also stated that there was "sport" and "combat" styles of Judo.

Each style Judo and BJJ has
Throwing, Grappling and Stiking techniques.  

Very Humbly;
After investigating both styles ourselves (Kodokan via Sam and BJJ Gracie Academy)  I would say that the two styles are very similar. There are subtle difference in positioning though.  BJJ has emphasis on the "guard" position.

Sam is an amazing man in that he Holds Masters ranking in 3 arts (Master ARNIS, Judo 7th Dan and Jiu-JItsu 9th degree) and a 4th degree black in Karate. His style of Arnis is very good in that he used many of the techniques in WWII.

Sam also had a good sense of humor and that he would alway laugh when we would practice joint locks or anything that involved pain.  Everything was always practice to him.

I believe that there is a post looking for Master Sam.  I am also looking for him.  I lost contact with him in 2001.  I had heard that he retired to San Diego with his daughter then eventually back to the Philipenes with his son.

I also heard the "soon" about his return to the States but nothing yet.  If any one has heard please let me know.

R&R


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## Andrew Green (Mar 1, 2006)

Nothing wrong with digging up old ones, welcome aboard (and thinks for the info  )


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