# Oils, Liniments, Balms



## L-Pro (Nov 15, 2009)

Hello MT members.  I was wondering what everyone's favorite oil/liniment/balm was for injuries (bruising, muscle pain, etc).  

I have tried zheng gu shui, wood lock oil, and some dit da jow  (supposedly) and so far of these three it seemed like the wood lock oil worked best.  I have been looking at many different available products, most of which fall under the Solstice Medicine Company.  The inactive ingredients vary from one product to the next but I am not versed enough to know what all the ingredients are or what they do exactly.  

If you could please help me by telling me which product(s) you use and why you think it/they are the best.  Thank you.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Nov 15, 2009)

Tiger Balm Extra Strength for the win. It smells nice, it penetrates, and it simultaneously soothes muscle soreness and clears my sinuses.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2009)

Cryogel, some injuries need cold not heat. Works well and smells very pleasantly.
Tiger Balm is good for mosquito and gnat bites as well as headaches.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 16, 2009)

I like Tiger Balm too but I prefer dit da jow. But it's important to have a top quality jow and to use the jow formula specific to your needs. As with any other product, they are not all equal. For bruising, I found the Eight Immortals jow by Shaolin Brand to be fantastic.


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## mook jong man (Nov 16, 2009)

I use an Aussie product called Pain Away it comes in a cream or a little pump spray bottle.
It contains emu oil , eucalyptus and a couple of other things , it doesn't smell too bad either.

The first I heard about it was that some of the teams in the N.R.L (rugby league) were using it , so I thought I would give it a try.

I've used all sorts of stuff over the years , most of them either asphyxiate you with the fumes or almost burn your skin off , but this stuff really seems to work.


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 16, 2009)

Dit da jow.


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2009)

Tiger balm and Vitamin C (esther C) tablets.   Helps heal those broken capillaries


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## Ken Morgan (Nov 16, 2009)

Scotch....


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## Flying Crane (Nov 16, 2009)

Zheng gu shui is, i believe, a menthol product and this would make it something similar to tiger balm.  The menthol makes you feel a bit better for a short period of time, but I do not believe it does much or anything to actually aid any healing.

I don't know what woodlock oil is.

dit da jow exists in many forms, and is very useful for brusing and contusions, and conditioning.  It's not to be used for cuts and open wounds or broken bones or torn ligaments and more severe injuries of that type.

Back in the day many teachers and healers in China had their own formula for dit da jow, and it was often closely guarded and not passed on to others but for family and close and trusted students.  Nowadays, it is commonly available in places like San Francisco's Chinatown.  The problem is, it still is not all the same and much of the stuff easily available is mass-produced in places like Hong Kong and Beijing, for mass consumption.  I believe these are cranked out daily in high-volume batches, 

It's my understanding, however, that a good jow takes time to make.  It needs time to brew and stew and whatnot, to become better than the average jow.  Sometimes you can get a good jow that is still made by a Chinese doctor, in small batches, with the necessary time involved to make it better than most.  This kind of thing is still often not available on a mass-consumption level, and I doubt you'll find it on the internet.

I know there are things on the internet that people feel are good, and maybe they are.  I don't know much or anything about them, so I won't comment specifically.  But if they are brewed and cranked out quickly, they are not a superior jow.

There are also different formulas that are designed for different purposes.  Honestly, I don't know much about that.  Supposedly some formulas are better for conditioning in iron palm type training and whatnot, while others are better for "healing" purposes.  Personally, I think they are all essentially "healing" linaments, but it is possible that an Iron Palm jow will have some additional qualities that another jow may not have.  Again, I'll be honest and just say that I don't really know much about that.  

However, if you have a good healing jow, I think you are on the right track.  I believe you could use a good healing jow for things like Iron Palm as well.  It may not be quite as good as a specific Iron Palm jow, but it's definitely much much better than doing iron palm conditioning without any kind of jow.

It's my opinion that most people are probably not doing Iron Palm correctly and methodically as they ought to.  Don't think that simply having an Iron Palm jow will give you Iron palms.  It is a long and dilligent training process, combined with proper healing, that leads to iron palm.  Jow is just one component of the process.

I wouldn't worry quite so much about specific formulas, as long as you get a good one.

I will put out an offer to folks here on Martialtalk.  I have access to a better-than-average jow.  I get it from my accupuncturist, and it is made in small, controlled batches by one of his medical teachers here in San Francisco.  The man who makes it has been practicing Chinese medicine for many decades.  He gives the jow several months to brew, it's not something that he cranks out quickly.

I don't know what his formula is, and I don't know how it compares to some others out there, but I am a believer that it is better than the average stuff that is commercially available.  Basically, I and my sifu trust my accupuncturist, and he trusts the man who makes this jow, and that's good enough for me.

If people out there in Martialtalk land who don't have access to a good source of jow, let me know and I can get some and send it to you.  Send me a PM and we can discuss.


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## Drac (Nov 16, 2009)

L-Pro said:


> Hello MT members. I was wondering what everyone's favorite oil/liniment/balm was for injuries (bruising, muscle pain, etc).
> 
> I have tried zheng gu shui, wood lock oil, and some dit da jow (supposedly) and so far of these three it seemed like the wood lock oil worked best. I have been looking at many different available products, most of which fall under the Solstice Medicine Company. The inactive ingredients vary from one product to the next but I am not versed enough to know what all the ingredients are or what they do exactly.
> 
> If you could please help me by telling me which product(s) you use and why you think it/they are the best. Thank you.


 
I have use both Woodlock and Zheng-Gu-Shi..I like WhiteFlower for muscle pains..Good stuff.


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## sfs982000 (Nov 17, 2009)

I would agree with the Tiger Balm and pop a couple Advil or Motrin.  It works wonders for me.


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## Drac (Nov 17, 2009)

White Flower Oil is like Tigers Balm on steroids...


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## L-Pro (Nov 23, 2009)

Thank you everyone for responding to my inquiry.  I would like to address a couple points that were made.  

White Flower Oil:  I saw this stuff both online and also at the local Asian Market.  From what I've read this is supposed to have a cooling effect.  I have considered trying it and will probably buy a bottle at some point to compare with the other products I have.

Hot vs. Cold:  I read the comment that was posted about the need for cooling action versus heating action.  From my research so far it seems that the cooling products should be used for acute injuries where as the heating products are used for remnant pain or injuries.  If someone could expound more on this that would be great.  

Vitamins:  I have heard that the best Vitamins are A, C, E, and K.  I am also interested in learning about "healing foods" and I've also known broccoli to be a superfood having probably the highest all-around nutritional value of all foods.  Someone also suggested Omega 3s like fish oil.  

Dit Da Jow:  I currently have half of a bottle of Five Photo Brand Dit Da Jow that someone gave me.  One of the replies on this thread mentioned that Dit Da Jow should not be used on cuts, etc. but this seems to be contradictory to everything that I've read.  The bottle itself even says that it is an antiseptic for cuts, scrapes and burns so I am confused about this stuff.  I have seen the Shaolin Brand Dit Da Jow online as well but I'm sure that knowing someone who can make it would be much better than something mass produced.  

I also encountered a product called BIOFREEZE that has a cooling action and is also endorsed by the US Judo team.  I tried some from a sample packet someone gave me and this was pretty good and intense.

Another but of information I came across mentioned overdose, especially in regards to Methyl Salicylate.  I don't know how much of an liniment would need to be applied to reach this level but I thought it was interesting that it was mentioned.  

If anyone has any other suggestions or would like to discuss some of these points I would be grateful to hear your input.  Thanks again!


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## DaleDugas (Nov 25, 2009)

I have to say that I have always been a dit da jow for external injuries and dit da wan for internal injuries.

I have been making and useing jow for over 20 years.

I have been selling strong dit da jow for various injuries for over 10.

If anyone is interested you can visit my site or contact me via pm here.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 25, 2009)

L-Pro said:


> Dit Da Jow:  I currently have half of a bottle of Five Photo Brand Dit Da Jow that someone gave me.  One of the replies on this thread mentioned that Dit Da Jow should not be used on cuts, etc. but this seems to be contradictory to everything that I've read.  The bottle itself even says that it is an antiseptic for cuts, scrapes and burns so I am confused about this stuff.  I have seen the Shaolin Brand Dit Da Jow online as well but I'm sure that knowing someone who can make it would be much better than something mass produced.



Hmmmm, I've always heard not to apply jow to open cuts. As far as Sholin Brand, it is not mass produced in the way you're thinking. My Sifu makes it a batch at a time. I believe Dale knows of him. 

Whatever you find that works for you, please let us know.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Nov 30, 2009)

Dit da jow for bruising. I've got some strong stuff I bought from Brendan Lai decades ago which I save for the deep bruises.

Tiger Balm is good for the sore muscles. Years ago, I got a product called Golden Cup balm, made in Thailand. Have not seen it lately, but it was really good for sore muscles, too. Especially (for some reason) sore calf muscles.


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## L-Pro (Dec 4, 2009)

I heard an interesting piece of information this past Tuesday.  I brought up that on the bottle of Five Photo Brand jow that I have it states that it is to be used for cuts, scrapes and burns.  I was told that this description is used for legal purposes only.  I was told that a product claiming to help move qi would not be approved for sale in other countries, especially USA.  

On another note regarding Dit Da Jow I also heard on Tuesday that its main function is to disperse blood and qi and that Zheng Gu Shui is used to draw blood and qi to an area.  I have heard about using Dit Da Jow and Zheng Gu Shui in alternation for injuries.

I know that certain products have a cooling action while others have a warming action.  I had a thought...not sure if this is right or not but if it is then it would make sense.  My thought was that products with a cooling action would disperse blood and energy and that warming products would draw blood and energy.  My thought was based on basic physiology:  when we get cold our furthest extremities are first affected as the body naturally draws blood to the core and when we are hot skin can become flushed equating to blood being drawn toward the surface of the skin.  Once again, it was a thought but if someone could confirm or deny this for me that would be great.  

I saw an interesting point in the previous post about a Thai balm that tends to work better on calf muscles particularly.  I've been noticing that the different balms and oils that I have each seem to be more effective on different parts of the body. 

I am still experimenting with different products.  I currently have Wong To Yick (woodlock oil), Imada Red Flower Oil, White Flower Oil, Kwan Loong Oil, Po Sum On oil, Dit Da Jow, Zheng Gu Shui, Tiger Balm, White Monkey Holding Peach Balm, and Iodex Double Power.


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## Dagney Taggert (Jan 17, 2010)

I like the Tiger Balm patches.  

Another good healing potion (though not an oil or linament) is an Epsom Salt bath.  I buy the 1/2 gallon boxes and dump the whole thing into a bath for a long soak.  You can also add lavender oil or eucalyptus oil.  

During intense training periods I drink a dash of organic Apple Cider Vinegar with powdered minerals in a 16 ounce glass of water before I go to bed.  My BJJ friends think I am nuts, but I swear by this recipe for keeping my ph and mineral levels running evenly.


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## teekin (Jan 21, 2010)

I use the same stuff I rub down the race horses with. Absorbine, Cool Green, Blue lotion, and Dynamint. There are other concotions that I put on cuts like Green Wound Cream ( bought from vet) that contain a mix of antibiotics and steroids that heal cuts in a day or so and neato compounds that can be mixed up a pint at a time that will heat and then cool. You find this out what works when you have your hands and feet broken on a regular basis and the stuff you rub the horses down with or use to treat thier owies takes away the feeling that your hands are full of broken glass. Sometimes DMSO can carry topical steroids and anti-inflamitories to the site. Not recommened but sometimes you must do what you must do.
lori


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## Stac3y (Jan 22, 2010)

DMSO can also carry dangerous bacteria to the site, Lori. I knew a vet who treated several horses for infections caused by DMSO. I would never use it on a horse, much less myself. PLEASE be careful with that stuff!


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## Xinglu (Jan 22, 2010)

L-Pro said:


> On another note regarding Dit Da Jow I also heard on Tuesday that its main function is to disperse blood and qi and that Zheng Gu Shui is used to draw blood and qi to an area.  I have heard about using Dit Da Jow and Zheng Gu Shui in alternation for injuries.



More accurately this would be to disperse _*stagnated*_ xue and qi.  Otherwise it acts to smooth qi flow. Appropriate use of die dajiu (&#36300;&#25171;&#37202 is for trauma, not for sore muscles.  The other liniments and oils/lotions are better suited for that.



L-Pro said:


> I know that certain products have a cooling action while others have a warming action.  I had a thought...not sure if this is right or not but if it is then it would make sense.  My thought was that products with a cooling action would disperse blood and energy and that warming products would draw blood and energy.  My thought was based on basic physiology:  when we get cold our furthest extremities are first affected as the body naturally draws blood to the core and when we are hot skin can become flushed equating to blood being drawn toward the surface of the skin.  Once again, it was a thought but if someone could confirm or deny this for me that would be great.


Not exactly.  When we talk about cold, damp, heat, wind, phlegm, fire, etc. we are not speaking about it in the same manner that western thought would think.  Both cooling and warming liniments can disperse and/or tonify.  It is dependent upon application, ailment, and substance.  For example some die dajiu is cooling and some are warming, some only disperse stagnated xue and qi/smooth qi, while other have tonifying qualities.  This is the difference between a training die dajiu (applied before training) and a recovery die dajiu (one used to heal trauma.   Sometimes to tonify one must first cool or sedate.



L-Pro said:


> I saw an interesting point in the previous post about a Thai balm that tends to work better on calf muscles particularly.  I've been noticing that the different balms and oils that I have each seem to be more effective on different parts of the body.


  This is due to the jingluo (&#32463;&#32476 or meridians in the areas, some liniments are more appropriate to use on certain parts of the body than others because of the energetic qualities of the jingluo and the nature of the trauma to the area.


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## Xinglu (Jan 22, 2010)

DMSO is dangerous if not used properly.  You need to make sure that what you  apply the liniment with is sterile and that the area you are applying it to is disinfected. It is very effective, however there is a very good reason (as Stacy has already pointed out) as to why it was pulled from the market for human consumption.  Just be aware of the dangers in using it, and best of luck to you in your training.

I would also like to address that in your training you should not be breaking bone, rather strengthening it.  There are many things you can do to help this along, so that your training no longer debilitates you.


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## teekin (Jan 22, 2010)

Ahh I am not breaking bones training in MA's but with the horses. Race horses tend to be very very fractious and getting your toes and tarsle bones broken as well as your hands is just going to happen. There is no way around it. The beasts are too hot, too strong, too fast and too unpredictable to keep safe all the time.
lori


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## MBuzzy (Jan 23, 2010)

I have been using Blue Emu the last week or so and it made my shin splints and calf pain go away VERY quickly.  Usually they take much longer to heal.


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## teekin (Jan 25, 2010)

It would be interesting to know the real science behind Emu Oil as I have heard several people say it's very good. That and arnica for bruises.
lori


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 25, 2010)

I don't know about all these products marketed specifically for ma's.. . For bruises, look for any linament that has _arnica montana _in it.  Arnica is the best vulnerary I have found, and often times if I apply it right after class, I don't even bruise to begin with.  ***DO NOT USE ARNICA OVER OPEN WOUNDS OR INGEST!***

As for muscle soreness, tiger balm works alright, tei fu lotion works okay too, but I typically use biofreeze.  Basically most of these muscle soreness lotions, creams, and gels' main active ingredient is typically wintergreen.  Wintergreen's most phyto-active compound is methyl salicylate (chemically very similar to aspirin).

30 mL (about 1 fl oz) of oil of wintergreen is equivalent to 55.7 g of aspirin, or about 171 adult aspirin tablets (US).

Anytime anything is swollen after class, ice it for 20 minutes on the hour.  Icing within the first couple of hours significantly reduces healing times and severity of injury.


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## Xinglu (Jan 25, 2010)

Arnica works by stimulating the activity of white blood cells that perform much of the digestion of congested blood, and by dispersing trapped, disorganized fluids from bumped and bruised tissue, joints, and muscles.

Arnica is known to stimulate blood circulation and can raise blood pressure, especially in the coronary arteries. So is you are on BP medication or tend towards the high side, be careful using this product, or use something else.





SahBumNimRush said:


> I don't know about all these products marketed specifically for ma's.. . For bruises, look for any linament that has _arnica montana _in it.  Arnica is the best vulnerary I have found, and often times if I apply it right after class, I don't even bruise to begin with.
> 
> The same results can be found with a good diedajiu
> 
> ...


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 25, 2010)

Xinglu,

Arnica of any kind is poisonous to the body, the pellets you are referring to are homeopathic, meaning there is no arnica actually in them.


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## Xinglu (Jan 25, 2010)

The vast majority of arnica creams/gels/ointments are homeopathic as well.  In fact you typically can't go to the stores and get the herbal form in anything other than oil.

It is also indicated for internal use (as herb not homeopathic) for certain heart disorders.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 25, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> The vast majority of arnica creams/gels/ointments are homeopathic as well. In fact you typically can't go to the stores and get the herbal form in anything other than oil.
> 
> It is also indicated for internal use (as herb not homeopathic) for certain heart disorders.


 

I agree with both of your statements.  However, IMHO, I would never encourage the layperson to ingest _arnica montana_ (herb, not homeopathic) due its potential dangers to the body.  

I use a non-homeopathic preparation for external use in my office and for personal use.  I agree that the majority of arnica creams on the market are homeopathic preparations, but I believe it is due to the risk of the cream being used on open wounds.  

The dosage for internal use, as you well know, is very small.


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## Xinglu (Jan 25, 2010)

I don't encourage laypersons to use herbs or homeopathics to self treat.  Especially if they are on medications or currently on other supplements, as there are interactions to consider.

This is why I make it habit to have have a long conversation about supplementation with each and every one of my clients.


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