# Pocket sticks, kubotons, koppo...



## ginshun

Whatever you want to call them in all their different forms.  I was just wondering if anybody here carries one on a regular basis, and also wodering what you guys think of this one.







  It is a Surefire C2 Centurian with a paracord wrap. I carry it most of the time. Same idea as your basic koppo, but with the added advantage of blinding light, and also not looking like a weapon of any sort.


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## Grenadier

Sorry, I mis-read your post.


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## arnisador

How big is the one pictured?

I have carried them from time to time as a keychain, but often find they're just too big to be comfortable in my pocket.


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## Rich Parsons

I carry pens to operate as a pocket stick. I find they fit in my pocket and I can use them for other reasons such as getting phone numbers  , and they are disposable. So, if you loose one, you just grab another one from the pack.


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## arnisador

"I'm not stealing office supplies--I'm arming myself!"

 I have an image of Rambo suiting up for battle...he puts the ammo belt around his chest. He puts the pistol in his holster. He puts the knife in his boot. He puts the ballpoint pen in his breast pocket...

 Seriously though, a pen can indeed be a good stabbing weapon. It goes back to the point that we train with plastic knives that we think can stab or cut, but so often in actuality we have a boxcutter (cutting weapon) or a screwdriver or pen (stabbing weapon), or something like that.


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## searcher

I do not carry one now, but I used to carry a blackjack.   They are illegal to carry in my state now so no more for me.   At current I am carrying a flashlight and my tac knife.   If you get caught with one(a blackjack, kubotan or extendable baton) it can get you some time in the pokey, but with my flashlight nothing can be said to me.   I do also have tools with me most of the time.    They are very helpful.


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## Drac

I still carry a Kubotan on duty and use it quite often, mostly when escorting prisoners to my cruiser..I place it between the chains of the handcuffs and not my fingers as some officers do..Off duty I have my car keys on a Pro-Tek Key, another effective device..


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## silatman

Seems to me that some of the most effective uses of a kubotan is as a pressure point manipulator, your example doesnt look very effective for that application as it doesnt taper into any type of point. 
It does look heavy enough to be useful as a punching weapon though.
Not the sort of kubotan that I would choose.


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## hardheadjarhead

ginshun said:
			
		

> It is a Surefire C2 Centurian with a paracord wrap. I carry it most of the time. Same idea as your basic koppo, but with the added advantage of blinding light, and also not looking like a weapon of any sort.




Surefire flashlights are superb...possibly the best.  Their light truly is blinding.  I like the idea you have here.

A flashlight is a good little tool for anyone to have on their person.  

I was given some beautiful little pocket sticks at the WMAA camp recently, courtesy of Sal Todaro.  They were made in Bolivia (as was their woven handbag, which is really nice) and are some sort of exotic hardwood.  

I can't think of a martial art that couldn't integrate a pocket stick into their curriculum for self defense.  They're easy to use and lend themselves well to techniques we allready practice.


Regards,


Steve


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## ginshun

arnisador said:
			
		

> How big is the one pictured?
> 
> I have carried them from time to time as a keychain, but often find they're just too big to be comfortable in my pocket.


 
 It is a little bit big for the pocket, but not too bad.  It has a pocket clip, so when kept at the top of the pocket it is OK.


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## Drac

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Surefire flashlights are superb...possibly the best. Their light truly is blinding


I couldn't agree more..I have 2 while on duty..The big one mounted in the cruiser and the little one on my duty rig..


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## KyleShort

Ginshun,

Do have instructions for making that paracord bracelet?  Very cool 

Also, that flashlight seems awesome (researched it)...but ~$100 is a little steep.  Suppose it might be worth it...dunno.


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## spellDwhy

I think that you can see this led flashlight . It's very great.


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## CuongNhuka

I've consulted with some LEOs in my area, and they agree that it's not that good an idea to carry an object around that has no real function other then being a weapon. So, I don't carry around knives (though I do own a few, and have brought them with me when I traveled to and from my MOS school on a greyhound), a gun, or a Kobuton. I don't even see the point of buying one (even for training), since the cheapest I've seen is around 15 bucks. You can cut a dowel into a few peices and you multiple for the price of one 'kobuton'. It's simply easier, chepaer, and there's less explaining to do to the cops to carry a pen instead of a Yawarra.


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## K-man

Hmmm. Reminds me of a Mae West quote that could be modified ... Is that a kubuton in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?   :lfao:


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## Skpotamus

I made a couple that I gave out to some of my students and my instructor.  Stainless steel, rounded point on one end, pretty thin (made from UMD spindles, about half the size of a CD spindle).  

I know my instructor has used it while escorting subjects at the jail to good effect with pain compliance and some joint locks.  He attached a key ring and slips the kubaton into his duty belt for easy access.  

I know one student used his as a fist load to good effect.


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## lklawson

CuongNhuka said:


> I've consulted with some LEOs in my area, and they agree that it's not that good an idea to carry an object around that has no real function other then being a weapon.


I simply can't agree.  A "weapon" *is *a tool.  A tool for Self Defense.  If your LEO friends don't want you to be able to defend yourself, that's a different issue.




> So, I don't carry around knives (though I do own a few, and have brought them with me when I traveled to and from my MOS school on a greyhound), a gun, or a Kobuton.


If you feel that your personal environment is "safe" enough that you don't desire a Self Defense Tool, that's your decision, of course.  Same sort of thing for training with them.  Lots of people train weapons for all sorts of different reasons, frequently not associated with Self Defense at all.  If none of those reasons appeal to you, that's fine.




> I don't even see the point of buying one (even for training), since the cheapest I've seen is around 15 bucks. You can cut a dowel into a few peices and you multiple for the price of one 'kobuton'. It's simply easier, chepaer, and there's less explaining to do to the cops to carry a pen instead of a Yawarra.


   It's cheaper (sorta), but not necessarily easier.  Even if you buy a dowel, you still need to cut and sand it at a minimum.  Cutting time is only a few min. and sanding adds a few min. on top of that.  Now you've got maybe 15 min. into the project.  Plus you have to actually spend the time to buy the dowel.  Hardwood dowels of appropriate diameter sell in 3' lengths for about $2 - $5 (depending on the hardwood and location).  Another $2 for a pack of sandpaper, when you add in your personal time shopping for the material and producing the product (how much is your time worth?) and you're now up to at least $15.  And that's without cutting finger grips or friction surfaces and treating/finishing the wood in any way.

And I'm not sure where you're shopping for Kubotons but I've seen them for $5 regularly back when they were popular.  Heck, the Cold Steel "Koga" stuff starts at about $11 Retail and only goes down from there.

I can easily see why people would prefer to just buy one.  Now me, myself, I personally have constructed them from hardwood dowels just as you've suggested.  But I like doing that sort of thing (when I have the time).

Additionally, a lot of Kopo sized flashlights are available now for well under $10.  Heck, the 2AA Maglites have been available at that general price range for years and there's lots of "customize it" stuff available for them as well, from "do it yourself para-cord wraps" to LED and thumb-button after-market stuff.

As for using a pen for a Kopo, there really are very few pens that work well simply because of their size and lightweight construction.  There are some heavy duty steel (expensive) pens which friends of mine carry as Kopo stand-ins.  Cold Steel makes the Sharkie which *retails *for $7 and you can find plenty of "Marks-a-Lot" type markers which will do in a pinch and are constructed heavily enough to use (though not as well constructed as the Sharkie).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Stickgrappler

i posted this sometime ago on a different forum... cutting and pasting into here. some online resources:

Frank Matsuyama / Yawara

from my amateurish internet research, this was probably the first book in English on the yawara, written circa 1947 iirc.

http://www.yawara.com/YawaraStick.html

the scan that is up is missing a page but supposedly it will not hurt your reading/learning the yawara.

they even made it as a pdf available for dl:

http://www.yawara.com/YawaraManual.pdf

Don Rearic

if you have never visited Don Rearic's site, check it out.. lots of good articles for noobs like me. 

http://www.donrearic.com

check out specifically the articles on yawara and koppo:

The Yawara Stick
http://donrearic.com/yawara.html

The Koppo Stick
http://donrearic.com/koppostick.html
http://donrearic.com/koppostick2.html

while there, check out the 2 on the Ju-jo -- variation of yawara stick: 
http://donrearic.com/jujo.html 
http://donrearic.com/jujo2.html

Phil Elmore

Carrying Pocket Sticks -- http://www.themartialist.com/0503/pocketsticks.htm

Pocket Stick Strkes -- http://www.themartialist.com/1203/pocketstrike.htm

Making Your Own Polymer Pocket Stick -- http://www.themartialist.com/0804/polymerkoppo.htm

How to Do the Koppo Wrap -- http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/koppowrap.htm


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## CuongNhuka

lklawson said:


> I simply can't agree. A "weapon" *is *a tool. A tool for Self Defense. If your LEO friends don't want you to be able to defend yourself, that's a different issue.


 
-Palm to face-
You either completly missed my point, or are intentionally ignoring it. I asked a couple of my LEO buddies, and they agreed that it nots a good idea to carry around a self defense object (of any nature) because after you get done using it, you have more explaining to do to with the cops. Example:
Cop: "And then what happened?"
Me: "Well, then I pulled out my Browning 9x19mm Hi-power handgun/6' butterfly knife/kobuton key chain"
Cop: "OK, why did you have said weapon with you?"
Me: "For protection"
Cop: "hu...."

Instead of:
Cop: "And then what happened?"
Me: "Well, I pulled a pen out of my pocket, and used to a block a swing, and thats when he dropped the knife I think"

Notice the differences? Also, I friend of my mine who is going into law said there have been a few cases where people carrying knifes have been charged with threatening people. Local law requires that if you're carrying a concealed weapon some part of it must be shown (ie, a clip on a pocket knife). So, I'd like to avoid some of that if possible. And I'm pretty good with a pocket stick as it is anyways, so I'm not too concerned.



lklawson said:


> If you feel that your personal environment is "safe" enough that you don't desire a Self Defense Tool, that's your decision, of course. Same sort of thing for training with them. Lots of people train weapons for all sorts of different reasons, frequently not associated with Self Defense at all. If none of those reasons appeal to you, that's fine.


 
Again, you either completly missed my point, or choose to ignore it. I _do _carry a self defense tool, it's called the 3-5 pens I always have on me. Like I said, LEO's in my area have advised me against carrying any sort item which has no use other then being a weapon. You could get away with a flash light, sure, but I don't want to spend a hundo on it. I also said I did carry a knife to and from my MOS school because I was on a Greyhound, and felt the threat level would be high enough that getting hassled by the cops would be ok if it meant getting safely from point A to B. I almost used that knife twice, but thats another matter.



lklawson said:


> It's cheaper (sorta), but not necessarily easier. Even if you buy a dowel, you still need to cut and sand it at a minimum. Cutting time is only a few min. and sanding adds a few min. on top of that. Now you've got maybe 15 min. into the project. Plus you have to actually spend the time to buy the dowel. Hardwood dowels of appropriate diameter sell in 3' lengths for about $2 - $5 (depending on the hardwood and location). Another $2 for a pack of sandpaper, when you add in your personal time shopping for the material and producing the product (how much is your time worth?) and you're now up to at least $15.


 
I've never seen a Kobuton-like object for sale for less then 25 dollars. I just saved 10 bucks. As for seeing it for sale not in a magazine, and we're looking at 35 dollars, so I just saved 20 bucks. I find that a 6" stick is pretty good for me, which means I can get 12 out of a 3' dowel. So, I could keep 2 for myself, and sell the rest to people in my class for a buck for a pair. Which drops your price from $15, a total of $10. However, I have a pack or two worth of sand paper sitting around already, further lowering the cost. Also, if you were putting in new towel racks, you'd have a dowel accessable (in the form of the old dowel). Not to mention I tend to wait until I need three or four things before I go to Wallyworld, so as for time spent getting any material I needed, it just went out the door. I think I'm making a profit at this point.....
Or, you could be increadably lazy and cheap, and just use an old marker. Which I do.



lklawson said:


> And that's without cutting finger grips or friction surfaces and treating/finishing the wood in any way.


 
I'm sorry what? 



lklawson said:


> And I'm not sure where you're shopping for Kubotons but I've seen them for $5 regularly back when they were popular. Heck, the Cold Steel "Koga" stuff starts at about $11 Retail and only goes down from there.


 
When were they popular? Like I said, the cheapest I've ever seen was $25.



lklawson said:


> As for using a pen for a Kopo, there really are very few pens that work well simply because of their size and lightweight construction.


 
I'm talking about using a pen _in a real life situation_ and a dowel in training. Smacking a pen into heavy bag as part of training is a bad idea for the pen and the bag. Smacking a pen into human flesh, different matter.


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## jks9199

CuongNhuka said:


> -Palm to face-
> You either completly missed my point, or are intentionally ignoring it. I asked a couple of my LEO buddies, and they agreed that it nots a good idea to carry around a self defense object (of any nature) because after you get done using it, you have more explaining to do to with the cops. Example:
> Cop: "And then what happened?"
> Me: "Well, then I pulled out my Browning 9x19mm Hi-power handgun/6' butterfly knife/kobuton key chain"
> Cop: "OK, why did you have said weapon with you?"
> Me: "For protection"
> Cop: "hu...."
> 
> Instead of:
> Cop: "And then what happened?"
> Me: "Well, I pulled a pen out of my pocket, and used to a block a swing, and thats when he dropped the knife I think"
> 
> Notice the differences? Also, I friend of my mine who is going into law said there have been a few cases where people carrying knifes have been charged with threatening people. Local law requires that if you're carrying a concealed weapon some part of it must be shown (ie, a clip on a pocket knife). So, I'd like to avoid some of that if possible. And I'm pretty good with a pocket stick as it is anyways, so I'm not too concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you either completly missed my point, or choose to ignore it. I _do _carry a self defense tool, it's called the 3-5 pens I always have on me. Like I said, LEO's in my area have advised me against carrying any sort item which has no use other then being a weapon. You could get away with a flash light, sure, but I don't want to spend a hundo on it. I also said I did carry a knife to and from my MOS school because I was on a Greyhound, and felt the threat level would be high enough that getting hassled by the cops would be ok if it meant getting safely from point A to B. I almost used that knife twice, but thats another matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen a Kobuton-like object for sale for less then 25 dollars. I just saved 10 bucks. As for seeing it for sale not in a magazine, and we're looking at 35 dollars, so I just saved 20 bucks. I find that a 6" stick is pretty good for me, which means I can get 12 out of a 3' dowel. So, I could keep 2 for myself, and sell the rest to people in my class for a buck for a pair. Which drops your price from $15, a total of $10. However, I have a pack or two worth of sand paper sitting around already, further lowering the cost. Also, if you were putting in new towel racks, you'd have a dowel accessable (in the form of the old dowel). Not to mention I tend to wait until I need three or four things before I go to Wallyworld, so as for time spent getting any material I needed, it just went out the door. I think I'm making a profit at this point.....
> Or, you could be increadably lazy and cheap, and just use an old marker. Which I do.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry what?
> 
> 
> 
> When were they popular? Like I said, the cheapest I've ever seen was $25.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about using a pen _in a real life situation_ and a dowel in training. Smacking a pen into heavy bag as part of training is a bad idea for the pen and the bag. Smacking a pen into human flesh, different matter.


Drop the attitude, kid.  I strongly suspect that you're not really understanding your "LEO buddies" advice.  They're not saying don't carry a knife or other item that is an effective self defense tool, I suspect.  They're saying that anything you carry should be at least superficially "dual purpose" like a Kubotan key chain, a pocket knife that doesn't scream "KILLER COMBAT FOLDER KNIFE!!", a flashlight, and so on.  I'd also suggest that someone "going into law" isn't a good source for legal guidance.  You can certainly menace or threaten someone with ANYTHING that can do harm, especially any sort of knife; that ain't news.

Pens are decent improvised self defense tools; they can do pretty impressive damage, especially if they're solidly constructed.  But they are IMPROVISED; they aren't going to do as well.  A zip gun is an improvised firearm; it hasn't got the range or accuracy of a Colt 1911 or any other real pistol, though both'll get you dead.

Here's a simple fact:  People are going to disagree with you.  Some of them are going to know more than you.  (Incidentally -- I just did a quick search, and had no trouble finding various Kubotans for under $10.)  You're *still* young and inexperienced.  And fist-length sticks are fantastic self defense tools, because they're hard to view as a scary, evil weapon...  The biggest drawback is that they require you to be in very close range to use them.


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## harold

Drac said:


> I couldn't agree more..I have 2 while on duty..The big one mounted in the cruiser and the little one on my duty rig..


 
Flashlights, in my opinion are the way to go as they serve a dual purpose of being a control or impact weapon if necessary or blinding and disorienting someone to allow you to escape, and they can go anywhere!


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## jks9199

harold said:


> Flashlights, in my opinion are the way to go as they serve a dual purpose of being a control or impact weapon if necessary or blinding and disorienting someone to allow you to escape, and they can go anywhere!


And they help you see in the dark, too!


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## BLACK LION

I carry a dark ops hellfighter x-12... striker bezel and 150+ lumens of blinding light.  

Its about as thick as a roll of quarters so its solid in the hands.


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## MJS

CuongNhuka said:


> I've consulted with some LEOs in my area, and they agree that it's not that good an idea to carry an object around that has no real function other then being a weapon. So, I don't carry around knives (though I do own a few, and have brought them with me when I traveled to and from my MOS school on a greyhound), a gun, or a Kobuton. I don't even see the point of buying one (even for training), since the cheapest I've seen is around 15 bucks. You can cut a dowel into a few peices and you multiple for the price of one 'kobuton'. It's simply easier, chepaer, and there's less explaining to do to the cops to carry a pen instead of a Yawarra.


 


CuongNhuka said:


> -Palm to face-
> You either completly missed my point, or are intentionally ignoring it. I asked a couple of my LEO buddies, and they agreed that it nots a good idea to carry around a self defense object (of any nature) because after you get done using it, you have more explaining to do to with the cops. Example:
> Cop: "And then what happened?"
> Me: "Well, then I pulled out my Browning 9x19mm Hi-power handgun/6' butterfly knife/kobuton key chain"
> Cop: "OK, why did you have said weapon with you?"
> Me: "For protection"
> Cop: "hu...."
> 
> Instead of:
> Cop: "And then what happened?"
> Me: "Well, I pulled a pen out of my pocket, and used to a block a swing, and thats when he dropped the knife I think"
> 
> Notice the differences? Also, I friend of my mine who is going into law said there have been a few cases where people carrying knifes have been charged with threatening people. Local law requires that if you're carrying a concealed weapon some part of it must be shown (ie, a clip on a pocket knife). So, I'd like to avoid some of that if possible. And I'm pretty good with a pocket stick as it is anyways, so I'm not too concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you either completly missed my point, or choose to ignore it. I _do _carry a self defense tool, it's called the 3-5 pens I always have on me. Like I said, LEO's in my area have advised me against carrying any sort item which has no use other then being a weapon. You could get away with a flash light, sure, but I don't want to spend a hundo on it. I also said I did carry a knife to and from my MOS school because I was on a Greyhound, and felt the threat level would be high enough that getting hassled by the cops would be ok if it meant getting safely from point A to B. I almost used that knife twice, but thats another matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen a Kobuton-like object for sale for less then 25 dollars. I just saved 10 bucks. As for seeing it for sale not in a magazine, and we're looking at 35 dollars, so I just saved 20 bucks. I find that a 6" stick is pretty good for me, which means I can get 12 out of a 3' dowel. So, I could keep 2 for myself, and sell the rest to people in my class for a buck for a pair. Which drops your price from $15, a total of $10. However, I have a pack or two worth of sand paper sitting around already, further lowering the cost. Also, if you were putting in new towel racks, you'd have a dowel accessable (in the form of the old dowel). Not to mention I tend to wait until I need three or four things before I go to Wallyworld, so as for time spent getting any material I needed, it just went out the door. I think I'm making a profit at this point.....
> Or, you could be increadably lazy and cheap, and just use an old marker. Which I do.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry what?
> 
> 
> 
> When were they popular? Like I said, the cheapest I've ever seen was $25.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about using a pen _in a real life situation_ and a dowel in training. Smacking a pen into heavy bag as part of training is a bad idea for the pen and the bag. Smacking a pen into human flesh, different matter.


 
If carrying a pocketknife is illegal, then there are many people walking around that should probably be in jail.  We're talking about a pocket knife, swiss army knife, etc., not a meat cleaver.  The big difference, AFAIK, is the blade length.  As for the grip, that you seemed confused on, take a look at this pic.  Notice the ridges on that?  That is what lklawson was talking about.  That will not be on a dowel, unless you take the time to put it there.  As for cost...here, here and here.  Out of those, the last one, was the most expensive, coming in at a whopping $10.  There are some flashlights that are expensive, but you could probably go to any store and pick one up for a fairly inexpensive price and perfectly legal to carry.  Of course, as I said, the more expensive ones put out alot of power, so using that in a blinding fashion is a great SD resource and again, legal to carry.  

As for people misunderstanding you...I notice in many of your posts, you get a bit of an attitude if someone disagrees, misunderstand, etc.  No need for that.  Understand that a) this is the net, so its often hard, at times, for people to understand the point that is trying to be made and b) perhaps its not the other person, but maybe, its the way YOU are wording your posts.  Additionally, people will disagree.  Nothing wrong with that, and debate is more than welcome.  Lets just keep it civil.


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## CuongNhuka

MJS said:


> If carrying a pocketknife is illegal, then there are many people walking around that should probably be in jail. We're talking about a pocket knife, swiss army knife, etc., not a meat cleaver. The big difference, AFAIK, is the blade length.


 
There's a local law that says if you have a concealed weapon, some part must be exposed. If you go back and read Ginshun's post, he has a picture with a clip exposed. Thats what's expected. My freinds going into law told me there have been a few cases in the area where someone was charged with intimidation and threatening people solely on those grounds. The cases were overtured, but I have no money for a lawyer, so I don't even want to risk it.



MJS said:


> As for the grip, that you seemed confused on, take a look at this pic. Notice the ridges on that? That is what lklawson was talking about. That will not be on a dowel, unless you take the time to put it there.


 
If this conversation was being held in real life, you'd have probably geussed I meant that less as 'I don't understand', and more of 'are you serious?. I thought if I said that, it would be precieved as more rude.



MJS said:


> As for cost...here, here and here. Out of those, the last one, was the most expensive, coming in at a whopping $10. There are some flashlights that are expensive, but you could probably go to any store and pick one up for a fairly inexpensive price and perfectly legal to carry. Of course, as I said, the more expensive ones put out alot of power, so using that in a blinding fashion is a great SD resource and again, legal to carry.


 
Again, that I've seen. I've also never bothered to look for one to buy, since I can easily make my own (heck, I still have some dowel left over from when I made my last pair). And even if not, my Sensei has a bag of about 30 that he uses when he teaches Seminars, I'm sure he'd be happy to give my a pair. Making a set out of an old dowel is free, and doesn't take too much time, I simply don't see the point of buying one.


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## nelsonkari

I carry a flashlight made for the pocket out of spun aircraft aluminum. My keys hang outside of the pocket to make it easy to open doors. The light makes an excellent tool for pressure manipulation and the keys make an extremely effective mace. I would have no problem facing a knife with my little "buddy" or any other weapon in an appropriate situation. My keyring is handmade and extra heavy by the way.

Tak Kubota years ago put out a book for LE on the Kobotan. I carried one for years until it broke in a non tac situation. With aluminum you don't have that problem. As a plus the krypton bulb is a good blinding agent and can be easily followed up with an upward mace attack. To a citizen it is just a flashlight.

A steel ballpoint pen is also a great choice for a harmless looking backup weapon. Worn clipped to the collar it looks like you are ready to take "notes" on the fly.

Nelson Kari


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## jks9199

CuongNhuka said:


> There's a local law that says if you have a concealed weapon, some part must be exposed. If you go back and read Ginshun's post, he has a picture with a clip exposed. Thats what's expected. *My freinds going into law *told me there have been a few cases in the area where someone was charged with intimidation and threatening people solely on those grounds. The cases were overtured, but I have no money for a lawyer, so I don't even want to risk it.


 
What the hell is a person "going into law"?  Are we talking law school students?  Pre-law?  Criminal justice?  I said they're not likely good sources for legal advice; there's a huge difference from learning a few of the basics and actually knowing what you're doing in the field.  In fact, I recall an incident in my area some years ago where a dumb kid screwed his future royally by deciding to help his buddy out with a ticket.  Showed up in court, had a stack of books... but something about what he was asking and how he was doing it didn't ring true.  He got asked if he'd passed the bar... and it came to light that he was a community college criminal justice student.  OOPS.  Not only did it not help his buddy -- but he got a felony arrest, to boot!

I'd love to see a case where a person was charged with any sort of intimidation or menacing (and the code involved!) for a knife in the pocket, unless it's somehow part of an incident like a robbery where a clear threat is implied by the action.  For example, a bad guy has gun or knife in their waist band, raises the shirt to show it, and demands money.

But that's a damn far sight from simply carrying a knife clipped into your pocket!


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## CuongNhuka

jks9199 said:


> What the hell is a person "going into law"? Are we talking law school students? Pre-law? Criminal justice? I said they're not likely good sources for legal advice; there's a huge difference from learning a few of the basics and actually knowing what you're doing in the field.


 
What if the guy learning 'a few of the basics' asks his proffessor, who teaches part time and is a full time trial lawyer? I had a few freinds ask different Profs to see if they would all say about the same thing. It was actually in reference the law concerning the clip showing of a pocket knife, this was brought up by a few of the professors. Also, most the cases (from my understanding) were civil suits. I'm not a Law major, and I don't know any law profs, so I couldn't give you anything specific, just what I've been told.


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## Skpotamus

CuongNhuka said:


> What if the guy learning 'a few of the basics' asks his proffessor, who teaches part time and is a full time trial lawyer? I had a few freinds ask different Profs to see if they would all say about the same thing. It was actually in reference the law concerning the clip showing of a pocket knife, this was brought up by a few of the professors. Also, most the cases (from my understanding) were civil suits. I'm not a Law major, and I don't know any law profs, so I couldn't give you anything specific, just what I've been told.


 
Ask them to cite the "local law" in question so you can look it up yourself.  I've been told by LEO's and the county prosecutor that openly carrying firearms was illegal, the state law says differently.  I asked them to cite the law, they sait it was a local ordinance (which the state law specifically pre-empted), and I asked about the ordinance itself so I could look it up.  They hemmed and hawed about it a bit, then changed the subject, turns out there is NO LAW in my area about it at all.  They just don't think people should carry openly and try to discourage it.

What state do you live in?  You can go to your attorney generals web page and access your state laws from there.  

Civil law is completely different from criminal law.  You can sue anybody for anything, whether it's stupid or not.


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## jks9199

CuongNhuka said:


> What if the guy learning 'a few of the basics' asks his proffessor, who teaches part time and is a full time trial lawyer? I had a few freinds ask different Profs to see if they would all say about the same thing. It was actually in reference the law concerning the clip showing of a pocket knife, this was brought up by a few of the professors. Also, most the cases (from my understanding) were civil suits. I'm not a Law major, and I don't know any law profs, so I couldn't give you anything specific, just what I've been told.


Civil law and criminal law are vastly different things...

Criminal laws are about public wrongs; the underlying "victim" of any crime is technically society, in the person of the immediate victim.  Crimes occur when someone either does something that is prohibited by laws, or fails to do something required by law, and are punished by incarceration and/or fines.  With the exception of a true Common Law environment -- the laws have to be written down.

Civil law is about wrongs between people themselves.  You can sue anyone for anything, if you can define the "wrong" done.  I could, in theory, sue you for rampant spelling errors, as the bother and annoy me.  The case would probably not get very far, and I'd look like an ***... but it's possible.  Recall the multi-million dollar pants lawsuit in DC...  Civil cases end in awards to balance the costs -- usually measured in dollars.

I suppose it's possible that someone sued someone else over displaying a knife clip...  I doubt it went very far at all...  I don't see it being likely, though.

You're relying on a student to accurately report back what a teacher said (and I'm very skeptical that several students asked several professors...) and to explain it to you when they still don't understand it.  Would you expect a brand new student to be able to teach a technique to another new student in your training hall?


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## MJS

CuongNhuka said:


> There's a local law that says if you have a concealed weapon, some part must be exposed. If you go back and read Ginshun's post, he has a picture with a clip exposed. Thats what's expected.


 
Ok, then its pretty simple, if thats all thats needed to make it legal.  




> My freinds going into law told me there have been a few cases in the area where someone was charged with intimidation and threatening people solely on those grounds. The cases were overtured, but I have no money for a lawyer, so I don't even want to risk it.


 
As it was already said by those with more law experience, each case, each lawyer, will most likely differ.  I'm not seeing how a knife, clipped to the inside of a pant pocket, would be considered intimidation or threatening, unless a comment was made about it, or a movement to grab and use the weapon.  





> If this conversation was being held in real life, you'd have probably geussed I meant that less as 'I don't understand', and more of 'are you serious?. I thought if I said that, it would be precieved as more rude.


 
Well, at the moment, we're on the forum, so I had to interpret what I thought you meant.





> Again, that I've seen. I've also never bothered to look for one to buy, since I can easily make my own (heck, I still have some dowel left over from when I made my last pair). And even if not, my Sensei has a bag of about 30 that he uses when he teaches Seminars, I'm sure he'd be happy to give my a pair. Making a set out of an old dowel is free, and doesn't take too much time, I simply don't see the point of buying one.


 
Buy, make your own...either way, in the end, the time and money put into the project will most likely work out to be the same.


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## Brian Jones

I'm a big fan of Kelly Worden's Travel Wrench. Comes in a couple variations, all good.


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## lklawson

CuongNhuka said:


> -Palm to face-
> You either completly missed my point, or are intentionally ignoring it. I asked a couple of my LEO buddies, and they agreed that it nots a good idea to carry around a self defense object (of any nature) because after you get done using it, you have more explaining to do to with the cops. Example:
> Cop: "And then what happened?"
> Me: "Well, then I pulled out my Browning 9x19mm Hi-power handgun/6' butterfly knife/kobuton key chain"
> Cop: "OK, why did you have said weapon with you?"
> Me: "For protection"
> Cop: "hu...."


And I'm saying that's bogus advice.  The proper advice is that if you feel the need to carry around a tool for self defense then carry around a tool for self defense.  The fact is that your LEO/semi-LEO/Legally-interested friends are not all that useful for telling you what you will or will not have to man up for.  Barring laws specifically making it illegal to carry a Self Defense Tool, your LEGAL DEFENSE for carrying a Self Defense Tool is "Self Defense."  Your LEGAL DEFENSE for *USING *a Self Defense Tool are the four pillars of justifiable self defense.  In other words, unless it's already against the law, go ahead and carry it if you feel the need and if you ever have to deploy it to defend yourself, THAT is the justification for using it: Self Defense.  Just make darn sure it really was Self Defense.




> Instead of:
> Cop: "And then what happened?"
> Me: "Well, I pulled a pen out of my pocket, and used to a block a swing, and thats when he dropped the knife I think"
> 
> Notice the differences?


Yeah.  Neither seem to be based on what actually happens in SD situations.  Instead of asking a few of your maybe-LEO-type friends, take some time to study actual case law.  It's easily available now days and publications such as American Handgunner as well as organizations such as The NRA make a point of collecting and providing it.

Where LEOs come into the picture is that they're the guys on the street charged with enforcing the law.  Sad thing is, they don't always know the exact specifics of the law and are encouraged by higher ups to just arrest when in doubt.  To be fair, that makes a lot of sense.  An arrest isn't a conviction and they can always let you go without charging you later and it's better than letting someone go and then regretting it later.



> Also, I friend of my mine who is going into law said there have been a few cases where people carrying knifes have been charged with threatening people.


Charged or Convicted?  Two different things.  Again, bear in mind that if an LEO wants to arrest you for something, you're GOING TO BE ARRESTED.  So always be respectful and don't piss 'em off.  They've got a tough enough job to do.  And that's without taking into consideration that some are just going to be power-adicted jerks (though most aren't).

Now, I'll stippulate that even being Charged can be a monumental hasstle, but that's not the same thing as being Convicted.



> Local law requires that if you're carrying a concealed weapon some part of it must be shown (ie, a clip on a pocket knife). So, I'd like to avoid some of that if possible.


So?  Not sure how this is any sort of real problem.  Pocket clips on SD knives are common as lies to a politician.



> And I'm pretty good with a pocket stick as it is anyways, so I'm not too concerned.


Great!  I'm quite satisfied with that.  Again, if you are comfortable with that device and skill set, I'm not going to argue with you about that.  My nit-to-pick has to do with your advice to others against specific SD tools based on the questionable statements by "LEO friends."  The advice is spurious.





> Again, you either completly missed my point, or choose to ignore it.


Dude, chill.



> I _do _carry a self defense tool, it's called the 3-5 pens I always have on me.


That's nice. 

Look, I'm a fan of "improvised weapons" but only to a limited extent.  Understand that improvised weapons will never be as servicable as tools specifically designed as weapons.  If you can shoe-horn annother tool in as a weapon and make it work, fantastic.  I do the same thing from time to time due to dictates of the situation, location, or law.  But understand that a pen isn't a good a kopo stick as, well, an actual kopo stick.  And a kopo stick isn't as good a SD tool as a large stick, which isn't as good as a firearm.  There's a whole continuum.



> Like I said, LEO's in my area have advised me against carrying any sort item which has no use other then being a weapon.


Sounds like it's just their opinion that they don't want you armed.  Unless there's law against it, then it's just what they *want*.  If you want to go that route, then, by all means, go ahead.  But advising others the same for those reasons is falicious.



> You could get away with a flash light, sure, but I don't want to spend a hundo on it.


"Get away with it"?!?!?!  I've not yet seen a law where a tac. flashy was illegal.  Might as well say "sure you could get away with driving a car, walking down the street, or breathing."  C'mon now.  As for expensive, well that's entirely your definition.  But you dont' have to spend $100 on a good tac flashy.  The local Target arround here sells Innova LED flahshies ranging from 2.8 up to 5.2 Watts for from ~$40 to ~$65 and you can get 1 Watt 2AA Maglites for around $15 so I'm not sure why you think you have to drop a C-note on a good Kuboton sized flashy.




> I've never seen a Kobuton-like object for sale for less then 25 dollars.


Let me introduce you to Google.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=kubotan&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10&fp=leBsIIJAIN0

Fourth down, "shopping results" immediately lists THREE for under $4 each.  The second link lists three additional for under $3 each.



> I just saved 10 bucks. As for seeing it for sale not in a magazine, and we're looking at 35 dollars,


Dude.  I need to start selling crap in magazines.  Apparently you can make a serious killing at it.




> I'm sorry what?


Ridges or cuts made into the cylinder intended to allow the fingers to fit in to enhance grip or friction patterns etched onto the surface, also intended to enhance grip.  It allows double ended use of the Yawara without having to cap the end with your thumb.  Very common on retail products but represents a more complex and difficult step for the home-made enthusiast.




> When were they popular?


The '80s.  Yes, I've been around that long.




> Like I said, the cheapest I've ever seen was $25.


Then you just ain't look'n.




> I'm talking about using a pen _in a real life situation_ and a dowel in training. Smacking a pen into heavy bag as part of training is a bad idea for the pen and the bag. Smacking a pen into human flesh, different matter.


And, as I've said, pens don't work as well without spending a bit more.  The Cold Steel Sharkie is a good example.  It's a lot more expensive than a standard marker, but it'll hold up way better.  It's still a lot less expensive than the price-point you keep proposing.  

Now, like I said, I have friends that have purchased pens in the price range of hundreds of dollars to use as Kubotans.  They're expensive, designer pieces but durable as the moon.

Nevertheless, the primary point on this side of the topic is that you don't have to spend much money at all, under $5, to get a Kubotan and some folks don't want to use their time, or don't have the skills to make their own.  If you want to, that's great.  I like making my own.  But I understand that some people have very good reasons for not.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

CuongNhuka said:


> I simply don't see the point of buying one.


Then you need to re-read some reasons that I posted.  The abbreviated version is: 


Some folks don't have the skills.
Some folks don't have the time.
If you had a 9-5 job, wife, kids, ran a MA club/school, were involved in your church, kids events, etc.  You might consider the fact that your job pays you $30 an hour, making a Kubotan on your own takes between 20 min. (if you've already got all the eq and materials) and 1 hour, and that you have lots of other draws on your time.  Suddenly a $5-$10 purchase seems like a pretty good idea.  Now, on the other hand, if you're 19 years old, have no family to care for, little money, a part time job (at most), and can spend whatever free time you like in your Sensei's Dojo, making one yourself instead of buying might seem like the better idea.

The fact that you seem to refuse to consider this is a bit surprising.  Or maybe not.  Experience is a great teacher, after all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

CuongNhuka said:


> I've also never bothered to look for one to buy, since I can easily make my own (heck, I still have some dowel left over from when I made my last pair). And even if not, my Sensei has a bag of about 30 that he uses when he teaches Seminars, I'm sure he'd be happy to give my a pair. Making a set out of an old dowel is free, and doesn't take too much time, I simply don't see the point of buying one.


P.S.,

BTW, if you really want to save a bit of cash, don't buy "Hardwood Dowels."  Instead, buy "Broom Handles."  They're hardwood, usually Ash, and cheaper than craft dowels.  They also typically come with a preservative finish on them.  I hate the finish and sand it off, but you might choose to leave it on.

You'll save dollars per foot that way.

Oh, and avoid "Closet Rods" too, except for training.  They're not usually Hardwood.  Softwood is OK for training (in kubotan size) but Hardwood is, obviously, better for actual use.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Stickgrappler

i was going to post that i recently bought a hard plastic kubotan keychain for $7 from the Dog Brothers site.... looks like i overpaid... lol @ me.


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## lklawson

Stickgrappler said:


> i was going to post that i recently bought a hard plastic kubotan keychain for $7 from the Dog Brothers site.... looks like i overpaid... lol @ me.


Nothing wrong with funneling a few extra shekels to the DB guys.  They've got good stuff in general and their Kubotan looks like decent quality (at least from the pics). Do they also have steel or alluminum?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Stickgrappler

lklawson said:


> Nothing wrong with funneling a few extra shekels to the DB guys. They've got good stuff in general and their Kubotan looks like decent quality (at least from the pics). Do they also have steel or alluminum?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
hello Kirk,

re:  aluminum or steel -- i believe it's only hard plastic. there is a rubber trainer available also.

http://dogbrothers.com/store/index.php?cPath=45&osCsid=549c6f5bf5ebc1276db77cdd98848e3c

very truly yours in the MA,

~sg



p.s. anyone with good _dan bong_ references, please post. would like to get some _dan bong_ links into the list i posted. or for that matter, any other good _yawara/koppo/kubotan_ links to add, please do.


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