# Self Training...



## Martial_Maniac

I know someone who is a "self-taught" sword practitioner.  I was just wondering about your feelings on teaching yourself.  I personally think you should learn an art like swordsmanship from someone who is qualified to teach it and not try to teach yourself.


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## Blindside

I think most people on this board would agree with you.

I have run into several self-described "ronin" who are out practicing based on such authoritative sources as Highlander, Excaliber, or the Last Samurai.  (I might have forgiven them if he knew who Toshiro Mifune was.  )  My only exception to this general rule is to those scholars out there who are currently working on recreating the historical European martial arts.        

Lamont


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## Martial_Maniac

i am not at all changing my opinion, but just to point out, Miyamoto Musashi claims to have been completely self-taught and he is , in my opinion, the greatest swordsman in history.


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## Charles Mahan

Miyamoto Musashi was not entirely self taught.  He apparently learned a great deal from his father.  Do some more research.


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## Paul B

I do believe Musashi was taught traditional swordsmanship by his father,then struck out on his own at the tender age of 12-13(?)..by any means a virtuoso. 

I can't really remember the exact age,hopefully one of our scholars could give you a better answer. The point is,he didn't just decide to start swinging a sword around and decide to take on challengers. The "basics" came from somewhere.

*edit* Thanks Charles,I posted over you.


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## Martial_Maniac

Sorry but I should have been more clear.  I know he wasn't completely self-taught and yes, his father did teach him swordsmanship when he was a boy.  I just meant that he didnt have a "master" to whom he credited his skills.


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## searcher

Self-teaching IMHO is extremely dangerous, to the learner.   To many times I have seen cuts and serious injuries from students trying to teach themselves how to use edged weapons.   I can only say to self-teach is truly taking your life into your own hands.   In one word, scary.


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## hwarang

I dont know i started off self tought and pretty much figured it out, then i started learning it from a pro, there is deffinitly an advantage to learning from someone, then trying to make it to your own way of doing it


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## Shane Smith

I am a firm believer in finding competent instruction. I am a researcher,practitioner and Instructor in the field of the Western European Martial Art's(I also taught TKD under my Master for a couple of years until discovering WMA) and while much of our research is done on an individual level, our theories and interpretations are always brought forth to our fellow Scholars for a proper reality check to include full-speed, intense fencing against other skilled Swordsmen.


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## Makalakumu

searcher said:
			
		

> Self-teaching IMHO is extremely dangerous, to the learner. To many times I have seen cuts and serious injuries from students trying to teach themselves how to use edged weapons. I can only say to self-teach is truly taking your life into your own hands. In one word, scary.


I remember one time, when a new student walked into our arnis class.  My teacher was expecting him.  He had a pronounced limp.  When asked, the student told us that he was trying to teach himself how to use a knife from a book on FMA.  He tried something in the book and ended up stabbing himself in the butt!


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## silatman

There is NO substitute for a flesh and blood instructor in any art, weapon or empty hand.
There is no way to no if you are picking up the sutilties or just gross movements.


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## Floating Egg

How did the Martial Arts develop originally? At some point was there a student without an instructor?


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## bignick

Nobody just woke up one day and knew all the answers.  There never was the "original" master.  Human combat has been evolving for millenia starting with our natural instincts for self-preservation and progressing past that.  Along the lines somebody figured out how to use a stick to defend themselves, somebody else figured out that if you sharpen the end of the stick you can stab.  He passes this onto his students/family/etc and somewhere else down the line somebody figures out that if you use sharpened metal or stone you get a better weapon...and it continues.  The knowledge that humans have, in any area, has been developed over long periods of time and did not appear out of thin air overnight.  Some people have certainly furthered our knowledge in the Martial Arts further than others but it's a steady rhythm, the instructor teaches what he knows, the student takes it and improves what he can and passes that on to his students...and so on, and so on....


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## Grenadier

Finding a good instructor is the safest, and best way.  That being said, there are some swordsmen over the history of time that received some training, and then trained on their own, to become excellent swordsmen, indeed.  

Assuming that someone has the talent to do this (and that's a VERY big assumption), and is dedicated, then why not?  Of course, no matter who the aspiring swordsman is, I would still recommend starting out with a bokken, at the very worst.  Even with a bokken, though, he would certainly have to treat it as if it were live steel.


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## evenflow1121

Most neo-grandmasters of systems are "Self Taught".  Sword like just about anything else is in the martial arts, is too complicated to be self taught.  Anyone can thrust or slash with a sword, but without knowing proper stances and the proper way to hold the sword as to not get your fingers cut off, or how to keep it away from your body, you are kidding yourself.


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## Floating Egg

Isn't it possible for untrained swordsmen to learn the necessary skills by trial and error?


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## Blindside

Sure, but the problem is that they are presumably "trial and erroring" against other untrained swordsmen.  The odds say that they produce crap most of the time.  

Lamont


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## evenflow1121

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> Isn't it possible for untrained swordsmen to learn the necessary skills by trial and error?


Possibly if you have an individual who dedicates his life to the art of swordsmanship, and practice with or against others through trial and error.  However, that would seem very rare these days, most people only practice a few hours a day, so I have to agree it would be more like trial and erroring for most that do this.


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## JAMJTX

I agree with the original poster "Martial Maniac".
Sword Arts, especially Japanese Sword Arts are extremely complex.  It may look easy, and someone good at it makes it look that way.  But it is a precise art that requires close attention to minute details.

You need the scrutinizing eyes of a master teacher.

That said, highly qualified Iaido/kenjutsu teachers are few and far between, although the number of competent teachers is growing.  I'm talking in the U.S.

So with the absence of qualified instruction, a lot of people are taking to video training.  Being one in the video business, I hope to be able to somewhat take advantage of this trend.  But, video needs to be used supplement training, not be the only source of instruction.  

If you are dead set on learning one of these arts and there is no instructor locally, find someone who will have videos available but will also have access to via camps and clinics or can get to train directly with in some way.


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## MA-Caver

Martial_Maniac said:
			
		

> i am not at all changing my opinion, but just to point out, Miyamoto Musashi claims to have been completely self-taught and he is , in my opinion, the greatest swordsman in history.


Well also remember this... Miyamoto Musashi had also a number of opponents to "practice" on thus could hold that title very well. But he only lived, fought, died in Japan. Who's to say how well he would've done against an European sword fighter or one from China or India, Middle East? Totally different styles here, different set of rules, formalities and such. 

Having a compentent instructor is yes, a good idea as with any Martial Art. Question is where to find in your area? Yellow pages? 
When I was younger I was fascinated with sword arts, particularly (like most people) the Samurai Kendo. Done some self teaching (never with an actual sword) and then moved to knife arts and was self taught there (with actual knives... haven't cut myself yet  ). I moved away from sword arts because I asked myself: "when in the hell am I EVER going to actually use a sword against a real opponent? Mebbe never, hopefully never  
So for me it became pointless to learn any further. But I still admire it and if opportunity arises then perhaps take up with a compentent instructor.


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## Charles Mahan

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> How did the Martial Arts develop originally? ?



In a crucible where those who had good ideas that worked, lived long enough to pass it on to the next generation.  The next generation worked on the system and the ideas that survived the battlefield were passed on to the next generation.  Bad ideas died on the battlefield and never made it to the next generation.

That crucible no longer exists for weapon arts.  You can come up with all the nifty ideas you want, but with no ability to test them in actual combat, they could very well be utter garbage.


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## MA-Caver

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> In a crucible where those who had good ideas that worked, lived long enough to pass it on to the next generation.  The next generation worked on the system and the ideas that survived the battlefield were passed on to the next generation.  Bad ideas died on the battlefield and never made it to the next generation.
> 
> That crucible no longer exists for weapon arts.  You can come up with all the nifty ideas you want, but with no ability to test them in actual combat, they could very well be utter garbage.


Yes, I agree. It's one thing to pratice and go whole hog with Kendo style bamboo swords and heavily padded protection and full face masks. A guy can get hit in a vital area and will keep going (egotistical psychological testosteroned juvenile thinking of didn't hit me that hard) as compared to a razor sharp instrument that, if wielded correctly doesn't need a whole lot of power to enter the human body, will slice and dice and cut into a vital and leave one laying on the floor dying or already there. 
Gotta admire those japanese/europeans who faced one another off with swords. They were brave and or fantatical enough to not care. I've personally been cut (in fights) by knives and it hurts dammit, likewise with these fellows they have their training scars and learned the lessons inherient with those. Scroo around this much and you're just dead. 
Good points Charles.


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## SwordSoulSteve

Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.
   In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc.  The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.
   The major advantage of being taught is speed.  The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable.  Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years.  To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.
   As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.


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## Bester

And you base this on how many decades of training?

You have trained how long?

I know people who have spent 50 years training in an art, and they all indicate they are far from "Perfect Mastery".  Of course, I guess if you make up the steps as you go, you'll be perfect.


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## Bester

Blindside said:
			
		

> Sure, but the problem is that they are presumably "trial and erroring" against other untrained swordsmen. The odds say that they produce crap most of the time.
> 
> Lamont


How was it said?

3 types of opponents:
-80% untrained
-18% trained but in a different art
- 2% trained as you?

Percentages may be off, but I believe the breakdown is correct.

So, if you are untrained, and your opponent is untrained, you'll just flail away and get lucky.  Anyone can pull off a trick once.  Doing it repeatedly, thats different.


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## Swordlady

> As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.


I forgot to ask, are you training with _sharp_ blades?  I hope you're not!


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## Swordlady

Steve, I also encourage you and other "self-taught" swordsmen to read this thread: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

The fellow in question, Don Rice, is also "self-taught" - but made one tragic mistake that resulted in this:












He was fortunate in not losing his left arm, but that arm is still crippled.  He only has the use of two fingers in his left hand.

This thread should be a lesson about the dangers of teaching yourself swordsmanship.  Don't do it!


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## Paul B

I guess it's my turn to be the party-pooper.



			
				SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.


Yes..they should be. The "Master" has spent a lifetime learning and trying to perfect the subtle nuances that "make" the Art. Are you suggesting that you "know better" than someone who's been practicing longer than you've been alive?....uh uh. It is highly unlikely that a juvenile with no practical experience or basis,reading books or watching video tapes would be able to even come close in terms of "Mastery"..it's just not going to happen.



> In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.


In teaching oneself..you scrape the surface and end up with bad habits. I've seen it a hundred times. Again..no one to teach you the simple but subtle differences in technique and execution and about a thousand other things you won't see on your own. 



> The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.


There is no advantage at all. There is no comparison at all. What you're contemplating doing is coming up with something that resembles sword work..but sword work it ain't. Please don't think that it is.




> As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.


The only thing I see coming out of this is bad technique. What is the hang-up with actually learning to crawl before you try to run? What everyone here is trying to say is there is a process to go through in learning a sword art. You can start where you're supposed to,and be good. Or you can learn on your own and pretty much suck. That my friend is the truth. Take care.


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## howard

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> ...Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years...


 Sorry, hope I don't offend you, but imo that's just way wide of the mark.

 If you don't believe me, try out a _traditional _Hapkido school.  Or a _traditional_ Jujutsu school.  Or even a traditional sword art school.

 If you can achieve "nearly complete mastery" at any of these arts in ten years, you are truly remarkable.


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## shesulsa

A bell keeps ringing in the back of my mind ... "re-inventing the wheel" it seems to ring ....


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## BlackCatBonz

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.
> In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.
> The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.
> As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.


complete nonsense

you can create a style of inevitable injury, bad technique, bad timing, no understanding of timing or distance, strategy......the list goes on. if you think you can fight effortlessly with something you just whipped up by swinging a sword around, try fighting someone with about ten years experience under their belt......they should be a master by then, and im sure they might even let you have a weapon while they fight you empty handed.

sheesh


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## evenflow1121

_Well then, I guess it's my turn to put in my two cents. I believe that the advantages to self teaching andlearning from a master are self-evident.
In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.
The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable. Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years. To create one's own......as much as a lifetime.
As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords._

_10 yrs does not make you a master, people can train in the MA's for years 10 and over and only hold a nidan or less.  I am not really sure its a matter of consequences as it is a matter of quality.  Swashbuckling a sword around will not teach you how to effectively use it, the stances, the proper movements, ect.  Safety is also important for another reason, and that being that when you the self practioner thinks he is ready to spar with another, you may execute something you deemed effective only to God forbid permanently injure yourself or worse.  While you are correct that you may have a complete understanding of your self taught style, since it is your style, whether it is effective should be the ultimate goal, if you cant hold a sword properly you may be in trouble._


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## Shane Smith

Intense sparring and skilled training partners and/or instruction are crucial for good hilt-work in my opinion and experience;


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## Bester

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Steve, I also encourage you and other "self-taught" swordsmen to read this thread: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083
> 
> The fellow in question, Don Rice, is also "self-taught" - but made one tragic mistake that resulted in this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was fortunate in not losing his left arm, but that arm is still crippled.  He only has the use of two fingers in his left hand.
> 
> This thread should be a lesson about the dangers of teaching yourself swordsmanship.  Don't do it!


 OUCH!

And he had experience.  I pity the "know it all" kids who know little to nothing about swords who think that the $12 wall hanger they got at the flea market will hold up to more than a couple strikes before shattering, or actually spend the cash for a real sword and end up injured or crippled because they are "Discovering their personal style" or some other stupidity.

Hey dumb kids - Even gladiators trained with wooden weapons until they really had the hang of it. If you can't be at least as smart as a barbarian, you have no business playing with live steel.


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## arnisador

A fellow FMAer with whom I was cross-training this even cut his finger to the bone while cleaning a sword he was giving me as a gift. It's easy to do! Nice sword, though.


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## MA-Caver

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> ...Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years...


I think that is a mis-statement and a half. Not even nearly complete mastery of any system in ten years. One can study sword arts (or any martial art) their whole lives and be real real good at it... but having complete mastery (or nearly)? I personally don't think so. 
For one (particularly with sword-arts) how will one be able to test themselves against actual opponents. Real-life-to-the-death-combat? It doesn't happen anymore... unless you're living in Austrailia wink1: ). Even then one won't really know until they pit themselves against another sword master. Now-a-days it doesn't happen.
Would one consider fighting with bokens a true test of one's skill? Gonna probably end up bruised and battered but at least pieces of you aren't all over the floor. But fighting with a live blade where you know certian cuts here and there will debilitate your opponent til they bleed out and grow weak and thus make the fatal mistake for that fatal cut/stab. 
But either way, I don't believe anyone will become a complete master at _ANY_thing because it's a continual growth process. Even if you take a child at say five and begin training them til they're 40 they're not going to learn everything... mainly because no-one person knows everything (about sword arts) and you can't always convince those "masters" to teach everything they know... even nearly everything. 

Not dissing you just what you said...


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## Gene Williams

You may try to teach yourself kenjutsu in the Japanese tradition, but you are only going to be laughed at ( I mean knee slapping, gut pounding laughter) by serious practitioners of the art or by anyone of a serious mind who knows anything about traditional martial arts. The people I have seen on video who are "self taught" look like idiots. But, there are a lot of those out there and you will be in your comfort zone. Go for it!


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## Franc0

When I think of someone "Self Teaching" themselves in something as technical as KenJutsu, a saying comes to mind about criminals that defend themselves in court. Something along the lines of "Having a fool for a client"? :whip: 

Franco


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## Grenadier

SwordSoulSteve said:
			
		

> In teaching oneself, one creates a style that is a perfect match for their strength, their size, their speed, their build,etc. The style you create for yourself is going to be, at its pinnacle, more effectively put to use by you than any style you were taught by another. You will have complete and absolute understanding of it, and thus everything about it will come to you effotlessly, thoughtlessly, and tirelessly.


Maybe in an ideal situation, where everything just happens to fall into place, and the "soke" of this new style is incredibly lucky, perhaps the new style could have its own merits.  However, without experienced guidance, how would the "soke" know if things are OK?  

There can be mechanical flaws in the techniques of this new "style," and that these flaws can, over the period of years, create some very bad habits, and  cause injuries to the practitioner, and I'm not referring to blade-based injuries!  These flawed mechanics could have easily been seen and corrected, had an experienced teacher given some instruction.  How many untrained people take undisciplined swings, and end up putting undue stress on the ligaments?  



> The major advantage of being taught is speed. The speed at which one can learn a style as compared to creating one of their own is nearly incomparable.


But what does the new style end up becoming?  To put things in perspective, sure, any character with no experience in construction can build a hut out of straw and mud, and have his own "home," but an experienced house builder will need to take months to build his brick and mortar home.  

If the inexperienced builder asks the experienced builder to help him, the experienced builder will tell him that he should learn how to build a brick and mortar home instead of relying on straw and mud.  Even if the inexperienced builder tells the experienced builder that he doesn't want to build a brick and mortar home, at least the experienced builder can still offer a few pointers that can make the straw and mud hut a bit more...  liveable, so that the roof won't come crashing down during that first storm.  



> Reasonably speaking, one can achieve nearly complete mastery of a given martial art in perhaps ten years.


I disagree with you on this matter.  I've been training in martial arts for almost 20 years, and would never consider myself a master in any of the styles I've studied.  Proficient?  Yes, but I probably have several more decades of training and study before I can consider myself to be even in the vicinity of the same bubble (and a BIG bubble it truly is) as a "master" would be.



> As far as the safety issue is concerned, if you're not willing to deal with the possible consequences, don't play with swords.


The dangers can be minimized if proper, safe instruction is given.  There's no sense in telling someone not to engage in sword training, when such people can be gradually brought up to the point where they can practice safe handling and training.  I would never give an inexperienced person a live sword for training purposes.  Even if someone were willing to deal with the consequences right off the bat, they are not ready.  This is why training is done with wooden (or even bamboo or ratan) weapons instead of steel.  

It's the same thing when I teach people how to shoot firearms.  I'm not about to let a newbie handle my S&W 629 without significant training.  To let a newbie fire a full power .44 magnum right away would accomplish nothing, and would possibly even drive them away from the world of shooting.  

If they haven't had any experience with firearms, and are afraid to handle things, then I'll bring them in gradually, teaching them to handle non-firing replicas in a safe manner.  This helps overcome the fear, and also instills the principles of safety and responsibility.  

Once they have demonstrated the above, I'll start people on my Ruger 22/45, and let them enjoy some plinking with some light, subsonic .22 LR loads, and when they have demonstrated the ability to shoot, and showing proper mechanics, I'll gently bump them up to some powderpuff .38 Special or 9 mm loads.  After they've become comfortable with these loads, then I'll let them fire full power 9 mm loads, and eventually work their way up.  If I notice that they start developing bad habits (trigger control, flinching, etc), I'll help them correct their mechanical flaws.  

Even though some of these folks could probably have figured out everything on their own, I know that I helped cut down the chances of something bad happening, and they're better off because of it.  

Anyways, I've stated my opinions, and hope that this can bring a new perspective to you.  One way or the other, I wish you the best of success with your training, and hope that you will take the initiative, and at least seek out some experienced training partners.  

Regards,

Ron


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## Shibumi

I occasionally try some of the empty hand kata with a weapon just to see what adapts or "feels" right. I got a bokken to play with, and one of the first things I did was hit myself in the knee with it. I'm very thankful it wasn't a real blade or I would be walking with a permanent limp. I do have a "ninja-to" I bought at the local Bud-K "weapons" store to see if I could sharpen a 20 inch blade. The jury is still out on that, but as it is full tang, I can chop weeds and branches with it. I have found it to be challenging just to swing a blade in a straight path, stab in a straight line, or slice along a straight line. Unless an Iai instructor moves to my town, I think I will just stick to chopping weeds. "fore ah hart meself"


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## Charles Mahan

Where you at?  Texas has a fair amount of instruction.  More than most states.


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## Cruentus

Shibumi said:
			
		

> I occasionally try some of the empty hand kata with a weapon just to see what adapts or "feels" right. I got a bokken to play with, and one of the first things I did was hit myself in the knee with it. I'm very thankful it wasn't a real blade or I would be walking with a permanent limp. I do have a "ninja-to" I bought at the local Bud-K "weapons" store to see if I could sharpen a 20 inch blade. The jury is still out on that, but as it is full tang, I can chop weeds and branches with it. I have found it to be challenging just to swing a blade in a straight path, stab in a straight line, or slice along a straight line. Unless an Iai instructor moves to my town, I think I will just stick to chopping weeds. "fore ah hart meself"



Careful with that budK...if it is stainless steel and you hit a hard branch or stump, it could shatter.

Paul


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## Swordlady

Shibumi said:
			
		

> I do have a "ninja-to" I bought at the local Bud-K "weapons" store to see if I could sharpen a 20 inch blade. The jury is still out on that, but as it is full tang, I can chop weeds and branches with it. I have found it to be challenging just to swing a blade in a straight path, stab in a straight line, or slice along a straight line. Unless an Iai instructor moves to my town, I think I will just stick to chopping weeds. "fore ah hart meself"


A "full tang" is not the only indication of a "real sword". Bud-K is known to sell _stainless_ _steel _sword-like objects (known as SLOs in the sword-collecting crowd). Please don't swing yours around; stainless steel blades have been known to snap in two even when swung with light force.

Edited to add: I just took another look at BudK's website.  There isn't a single real sword on that site.  I know this because I sorted the swords by price; even the most expensive swords (which cost $199.99) are made from stainless steel.


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## Shibumi

Thanks for the warning, it reminded me more of a machete than a sword when I bought it, and I haven't really thought of it as a sword at all. I hate to hear that it is dangerous as a machete as well, I do not like the idea of having "display" weapons- I train with all the weapons I have. I live in Abilene and there is a school here that teaches something with great big styrofoam looking "swords", I don't remember what it is called- the guy who tried to recruit me said it wasn't a traditional art. It didn't look too interesting to me, but the people doing it were having great fun.
Does anyone know of any traditional sword arts being taught anywhere within 100 miles of Abilene, Texas?


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## Swordlady

Shibumi said:
			
		

> I live in Abilene and there is a school here that teaches something with great big styrofoam looking "swords", I don't remember what it is called- the guy who tried to recruit me said it wasn't a traditional art. It didn't look too interesting to me, but the people doing it were having great fun.
> Does anyone know of any traditional sword arts being taught anywhere within 100 miles of Abilene, Texas?


Perhaps it is the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA)?  They recreate medieval times and fight with rattan swords.

Here's a list of Kendo dojos.  There are quite a few in Texas.  Also try this Martial Art Registry.  Unfortunately, I can't vouch for the validity of these dojos.  Good luck in your search!


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## Eldritch Knight

I think Shibumi is referring to something else, actually. There was a relatively new martial art that got some popularity in Japan a few years ago. They used single-handed foam sword and plexiglass faceshields and just went at it full force. It was pretty fierce, and it got a lot of popularity because of the whole Kill Bill / Last Samurai thing around that time, but I just can't seem to remember what it was called... My kendo senpai even kept one of their swords in our changing room just for kicks.


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## Swordlady

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> I think Shibumi is referring to something else, actually. There was a relatively new martial art that got some popularity in Japan a few years ago. They used single-handed foam sword and plexiglass faceshields and just went at it full force. It was pretty fierce, and it got a lot of popularity because of the whole Kill Bill / Last Samurai thing around that time, but I just can't seem to remember what it was called... My kendo senpai even kept one of their swords in our changing room just for kicks.


Are you talking about chanbara?  Looks like fun, but I wouldn't consider it to be an authentic JSA.


----------



## Shibumi

I looked it up in the phone book- the school teaches chanbara, American kenpo, tae-kwon-do, and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. The chanbara reminds me of when I was a kid and we beat each other up with sticks "sword fighting". Now, that was a good time! as long as you didn't have to get stitches etc.


----------



## Charles Mahan

Shibumi said:
			
		

> Does anyone know of any traditional sword arts being taught anywhere within 100 miles of Abilene, Texas?



Best I can do is Lubbock at around 160 miles.  There's a Komei Jyuku MJER group there.  The next closest that I know of is our dojo in Denton at 310 miles.


----------



## pgsmith

> Does anyone know of any traditional sword arts being taught anywhere within 100 miles of Abilene, Texas?


  Joe Bostick has a Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu study group down in Cleburne. That's still about 140 miles from Abilene though.


----------



## Shibumi

Thanks, to everyone.


----------



## Eldritch Knight

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Are you talking about chanbara?  Looks like fun, but I wouldn't consider it to be an authentic JSA.



Yes! That's the one! Agreed, not an authentic JSA, but tough nonetheless, and probably on par with kendo, depending on what you want to get out of the training.


----------



## Cruentus

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Are you talking about chanbara?  Looks like fun, but I wouldn't consider it to be an authentic JSA.



I've done it. It is more sport then traditional, but a lot of fun none-the-less!

Paul


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Excuse me but i am a self taught "Ronin" but i dont do any thing with my KC 29"  before i use my bokken, i learn and train with my bokken, and when i can do it without thinking then i use my sword on a target, mainly pool noodles, i dont want to nick my blade. It is dangerous, i dont recomend any one try it, but i do and i except that i am putting my life in my hands, i know the dangers, and i know the consequences and i except.
some may call me stupid other may say i'm foolish, and thats fine, every one has there own say about things, like i said, i dont recomend it, but i do enjoy and i do learn from it, i find what is comfortable for me and i check thing and the movements i make to make sure i am out of harm from my sword and i can still efectivly and comfortably go through with the slice. yes it takes time, yes it is harder than someone instructing me, but i enjoy it, and safety is my first priority, i promise.  


Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## Charles Mahan

Why not do it for real?  Why play pretend?  There are real training oppurtunities to be had these days.


----------



## arnisador

Good luck to you, but...I would have to agree that getting training can only help, if it's possible for you to do so.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

well see that is another reason why i do it my self, i cant get training. now i would not mind going to a few clases and finding out certain proper things, but i cant, and like i said, its fun figuring it out for my self. I focus on instinct more than style, cause i personaly believe that all MA's and fighting is nothing more than instinct, and if you train in a certain art for a good many years it becomes second nature, but i cant get training, so i focus on what my instincts tell me to do, i wach my opponent's moves, and then react acording to what i see fit. I am sure that all of you Martial artists here are very skilled and highly trained, and you all have put forth lots of effort i'm sure. I do also, just not in the same style, i dont have any one helping me, i do it the way that i can, and who knows, i just might be very good. you cant ever tell. 

R.W.-M.


----------



## Charles Mahan

Do yourself a favor.  You're not making any points that haven't been espoused by backyard samurai everytime they come online.  Do some forum searches on http://www.e-budo.com and http://www.swordforum.com for "Self teaching".  

You are playing pretend.  As long as you understand that you are just playing swishy pokey, good for you.  You cannot teach yourself anything that you do not already know.  The problem with puzzling a sword art out on your own is two fold.  The first is that you have no way to test anything to see if it works.  You can't walk onto a battlefield or pick a fight with a Samurai in the streets of Kyoto anymore to see if what you've puzzled out on your own is worth a damn.  The second problem is that if you could do so, you would most likely be killed and would not live long enough to puzzle out what you did wrong.

Find instruction.  Learn it for real.  Playing around on your own is kinda like trying to learn how to do brain surgery by playing around with an exacto knife and a pomegranate.


----------



## Charles Mahan

I'm not just trying to be a jerk about this BTW.  Follow this link
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083&perpage=36&pagenumber=2

That guy was just trying to go by instinct and figure things out on his own too.  He had a leg up on you as a life long knife smith with a great deal of experiene with blades.  He even had a book to go by.  Didn't save him though.

There are genuinely real dangers in what you are attempting.  Swords are not toys and should not be treated as such.  Where are you located.  Perhaps we can help you find something in your area, or at least recommend a seminar you can travel to that would not be too far away.  There you could hopefully learn enough not to be a danger to yourself or others.

Think of a sword as a gun that cannot be unloaded and has no safety.


----------



## Walter Wong

And like a gun, a sword has no prejudice.  Your sword can kill your opponent.  But your own sword can kill you too.  It does not know you and does not care.  It's designed to cut and will cut you along with everything else in it's path.  So it has no prejudice and does what it's made to do, cut flesh.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I am aware of that. But no offense, but you have never fought any one like that, that was outside of class have you? If you have not, then how do you know that what you are learning is doing you any good?Just be cause lessons and a style works for a few does not mean it will work for everyone. I have checked out all the places near me, they are to far away, and i dont have the money to pay them.And again i mean no disrespect, but dont judge how i fight, and train until you have fought me, even in a bokken fight. I respect all of you for putting in the time and money to learn these certain styles, but i dont have the money, i told you, i am always careful, i have never been cut by any of my knives or swords, unless it was on purpose. Not all self tough people are sucky at fighting with what they are using, and not all style tought people are good at what they are learning. My point is, dont judge everyone that self teaches them selves to be just a bunch of idiots that dont know what they are doing, cause i know some one that have trained in a style, and my friend that is also self taught can beat him.... badly. 

thats all i'm saying.  

R.W.-M.


----------



## arnisador

They know because they study a style developed by people who _did _cut people. That experience is embedded in their techniques.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> I am aware of that. But no offense, but you have never fought any one like that, that was outside of class have you? If you have not, then how do you know that what you are learning is doing you any good?Just be cause lessons and a style works for a few does not mean it will work for everyone. I have checked out all the places near me, they are to far away, and i dont have the money to pay them.And again i mean no disrespect, but dont judge how i fight, and train until you have fought me, even in a bokken fight. I respect all of you for putting in the time and money to learn these certain styles, but i dont have the money, i told you, i am always careful, i have never been cut by any of my knives or swords, unless it was on purpose. Not all self tough people are sucky at fighting with what they are using, and not all style tought people are good at what they are learning. My point is, dont judge everyone that self teaches them selves to be just a bunch of idiots that dont know what they are doing, cause i know some one that have trained in a style, and my friend that is also self taught can beat him.... badly.
> 
> thats all i'm saying.
> 
> R.W.-M.


 

Because when I was admiring some blades at a friends house, we picked them up and started to lightly trade strikes and defenses. He trained in fencing, while I trained in FMA. Then his Father-in-law to be said "Boys" put the swords down we do not want to have to get one of you married to my daughter today in the hosiptal. He was engaged to the Daughter 

Shesh Boys and blades.

But the point was that both of us had basic concepts of how to move a blade and never trained with each other. We both were able to see openings and discussed this and what the expected blocks or counters would be. Thsi across styles and teachings.


----------



## Charles Mahan

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Not all self tough people are sucky at fighting with what they are using, and not all style tought people are good at what they are learning. My point is, dont judge everyone that self teaches them selves to be just a bunch of idiots that dont know what they are doing, cause i know some one that have trained in a style, and my friend that is also self taught can beat him.... badly.
> 
> thats all i'm saying.
> 
> R.W.-M.


 

Clearly we cannot stop you from playing at swords, but neither will we take you seriously if you intend to continue the charade that what you are doing would serve you in a real fight.  Might be it will.  More likely it would get you killed.  You will never know for sure.  Your assertion that your stuff can be proven with bokuto is silly. Wooden swords are not real.  They aren't weighted like the real thing.  They aren't balaned like the real thing.  They don't have the impact of the real thing, and they can leave you with a false sense of security.  If your opponent cannot really cut you, then you will be reckless and foolhardy in the way you fight.  Put a live blade in your hand and maybe that will win the fight for you, but against a skilled opponent it will most likely be the end of you.

If you're just out to have fun, for your own sake stick to wood.  You are far less likely to cut your fingers off.  Wood is cheaper and you are apparently short on funds. 

BTW, lack of funds is no excuse.  Get a job.  One that pays well.  If you aren't qualified for such a job, get some training, get a degree.  If you're too young, wait and grow up.  That's what the rest of us have done.  We didn't take the short cut.

While it is true that you might be the one monkey to pound out a Shakespeare doesn't mean you should be willing to bet your life on it.


----------



## Walter Wong

I read of an individual showing up to their first Filipino Martial Arts class limping.  When asked what happened, that individual admitted that he, without a single formal lesson in Filipino Martial Arts/knife fighting from a legitimate instructor prior, was trying to learn the Filipino knife techniques from a book and resulted in him losing grip of the knife and stabbing himself in the butt cheek.


----------



## Charles Mahan

I bet he thought he was doing it perfectly and that it felt right, right up until he stabbed himself.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

only idiots use live blades before they do it with a bokken (or what ever is closest to the weapon being practiced), until it is second nature, and even then you have to pay attention.  :whip: 


Rounin Ookami-tatsujin
(Ronin Wolf-master)


----------



## Charles Mahan

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> only idiots use live blades before they do it with a bokken (or what ever is closest to the weapon being practiced), until it is second nature, and even then you have to pay attention. :whip:


 
Only an idiot ignores good advice when it comes from so many different people and the consequences of ignoring it are so high.


----------



## arnisador

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> only idiots use live blades before they do it with a bokken


 
Please bear in mind, our concern for you is based on having seen this happen before. If you're practicing safely, good! The next question is: How can you know that what you're doing is _effective_?


----------



## Saitama Steve

Well said Charles.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I spar with my friends, thats how i know i'm getting better ( :jediduel: ) , and yes i do practice safely. everything is done with a bokken several times over before i do it with my sword. I understand your concern, but i assure you my parents would not let me do something without knowing that i will be carefull at all times, and i will be getting books from the library to also find out some of the basics in Iaijutsu. :samurai:


Rounin Ookami-tatsujin
(Ronin Wolf-master)


----------



## Blindside

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> I spar with my friends, thats how i know i'm getting better (Ronin Wolf-master)


 
Do you spar with bokken?  And what do you wear for protection?

Lamont


----------



## kroh

OK, Ronin Wolf...Since we can't convince you of the errors of your ways here are some things you can do to help you in this "self discovery."

1. Always make sure that you practice with a buddy. This is for *when* you get injured, you can have some one on stand by to give you a hand. 

2. Keep a cell phone charged and within reach just in case and a *fully stocked* first aid kit on stand by. 

3. Find every scrap of information online and in the library on the subject and if possible, find a person either online or by phone willing to chat with you about your progress (but don't ask us as most of us believe that face to face teaching is crucial and essential for the study that you are undertaking.)

4. Save some money and take a road trip (with parent's permission of course) and travel to a respectable training school to "test" your theories (some instructors would be happy to hlep you see the error of your ways but the majority will turn you away unless you plan on studying with them. Call ahead first).

5. Call the police and let them know your parents (as you sound like you are under 18...please excuse me if I am wrong ) have given you access to a sword without giving you over to proper instruction. In some states this can be seen as neglect and in others as a form of child abuse. In a similar instance, a friend of mine lives in a rural area where parents teach their children the finer points of riflery. Children are pretty much given free reign in this respect as their parents are accomplished hunters (who have apprenticed under the tutelege of their parents) and are standing right there with them. Children trying to "shoot like dad," without Dad, have suffered serious injuries and in some cases died in this manner because they thought they knew what they were doing.

Whether Eastern or Western, swordsmanship is just like learning the use of any weapon. Without instruction, you are learning the principles from the ground up and it could take you a life time just to ferret out the basics of what you are doing. You sound like a decent person who has been respectful to the members around here who have questioned you about your motives. Definately says something about your character. And we are not trying to be jerks about this. A lot of us thought like you did untill we saw a "qualified" person "tho us a woopin" and show us just how much we didn't know. You sound like you have a genuine interest and that is healthy. Swiping at your boys with a meter or oak shpaed like a sword is not going to teach you the finer points of what you are doing as they have no experience either. 

This is all just my opinion so take it as you will...But at that age...time is better spent chasing girls than swords. Just make sure that if you can do both...do it legaly ( no chasing girls with the swords). 

Good luck Wave Man Wolf...I hope you find what you are looking for.
Regards, 
Walt

P.S. To Charles..."Like a gun that is always loaded and doesn't have a safety..."

Priceless!


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I do wish to spar with some Senseis once i feel i am trainied, with the stakes that if i loose i will learn from them. Yes i am under 18, but i assure you that it is not child neglect or abuse, my mom is here all day and i am home schooled so i always have supervision. I do entend on learnig from books and maybe some vidieos if possible. And as far as the girls go.... i got a girl friend, and she does not mind my love of swords. :ultracool 

i know that you all are not trying to be jerks, i understand where you all are comming from, but i dont have the funds, and i dont guess i have much patience with getting them either. lol 
I have tried to go to sword schools, but it costs to much gas to go and come, and to much money a month, we just dont have it. my sword was my christmas present, well one of them, i also got a survival knife and a wallhanger sword.My bokken is the same length as my sword, and very,very close to the same weight, so its great for training with, and all i need to know is how to defend myself, wich i personaly think i am doing quite well, espesialy once i get someore christmas money, i need to get some oil for my sword blade, and i want to buy some pool noodles.(to cut and see how good my cuts are) 

But i promise you all that i am supervised and that safety is my first priority, i to have seen and heard of what has happned to selftraining people, it is not pretty, and because i know that, and have seen what hapends even if you messup putting the Kat. into the saya.... well your hand wont be able to move for a while...   
even with something as small like that can kill you, trust me, i am always careful and i take my time, and go very slowly, there is no hurry.  :wink1: 

thanks for the concern.

R.W.-M.


----------



## Knarfan

IMO, there is know way that you can self teach yourself & achieve a truly high level of expertise. You will improve & get better but, there is so much that you are missing & weather you realize it or not you are developing bad habbits, you need the expert eye & years & years of training & practice, especially when you are talking about edged weapons. You have to decide how seriously you want to take your training. Just my 2 cents .


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I am serious, but that has nothing to do with the fact that i'm broke. If it were not for that, then yes i would probly get training but i cant. but i do try to see what i do and try other ways to see if there is a better one, yes it does take longer, i hve already said that but i evenly evaluate myself to see what it is i am doing wrong, and i try not to make bad habits, and i try to recognize when i do, i dont guess i self train like most. lol
I train myself to be just a disaplined asthough i were in a class, that way i can learn. I give it my all, or i dont give anything, wich in other words means, i try my hardest and push myself farther each time i train. But i will be getting some stuff to help me get the basics down.I guess i will pull a musashi, once i get the basics down, then do the rest myself. lol 
its worth a try, and i am lways careful, alot of people are not, and they try it with the live blade, and then they get a BIG doctors bill, asuming it does not kill them, i use a proper training weapon, so that the worst iget is a bruse. Its all in using common sence, to weather or not you get hurt, whach what you are doing, start with a bokken, and consentrate, once you know you can do it, real well and fast with the bokken, then try it realy slow with the sword, and follow the same rules again, and nothing bad will happen, take your time and learn while you are practicing, thats the whole point of training , is to learn.

my dolllars worth. (cause i've said so much. lol)

Ronin Wolf-master


(Ps. sorry for my bad spelling, i'm multitasking while i'm on the computer.)


----------



## Saitama Steve

Good luck and do try to keep your thumbs attached when training in iaijutsu. 

 Even if you do train yourself to some sort of competence, you won't be taken seriously by maintstream weapons based martial artists. 

If you try to publicly teach it, and are paid for it, you will be exposed. It may take a while, but someone will one day, do enough digging and find you out - Someone who didn't want to hack real training and made it all up by himself. 

*NOT* what Miyamoto Musashi did. 

Anyway, again good luck.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I'm sorry i was only really meaning to give an example of effectife self training, not saying Musashi was a hack or anything like that, i hope it did not come of as such. again sorry.

I have no intensions of publicly teaching, never have. Its just for myself, that way i cant take soul responsability.  

thanks for the good luck.  

R.W.-M.


----------



## Knarfan

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> I am serious, but that has nothing to do with the fact that i'm broke. If it were not for that, then yes i would probly get training but i cant. but i do try to see what i do and try other ways to see if there is a better one, yes it does take longer, i hve already said that but i evenly evaluate myself to see what it is i am doing wrong, and i try not to make bad habits, and i try to recognize when i do, i dont guess i self train like most. lol
> I train myself to be just a disaplined asthough i were in a class, that way i can learn. I give it my all, or i dont give anything, wich in other words means, i try my hardest and push myself farther each time i train. But i will be getting some stuff to help me get the basics down.I guess i will pull a musashi, once i get the basics down, then do the rest myself. lol
> its worth a try, and i am lways careful, alot of people are not, and they try it with the live blade, and then they get a BIG doctors bill, asuming it does not kill them, i use a proper training weapon, so that the worst iget is a bruse. Its all in using common sence, to weather or not you get hurt, whach what you are doing, start with a bokken, and consentrate, once you know you can do it, real well and fast with the bokken, then try it realy slow with the sword, and follow the same rules again, and nothing bad will happen, take your time and learn while you are practicing, thats the whole point of training , is to learn.
> 
> my dolllars worth. (cause i've said so much. lol)
> 
> Ronin Wolf-master
> 
> 
> (Ps. sorry for my bad spelling, i'm multitasking while i'm on the computer.)


 
Just because you typed alot of words dosen't mean that you said a dollars worth . Somone who actually knew somthing could have typed but a few words & said much more. The value dosen't lie in the quantity, the same could be said of ones training :asian: . Usually when somone says they don't have any money for training , what they are really saying is my training isn't that important. Good luck, I admire your effort to try & learn on your own but, you really need a good instructor. You won't realize that until you have experianced this. So keep an open mind & save your dollars up for training....


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

No reall i have no money, my parents do, but they also have bills..... so when i say i'm broke, i mean just that, i'm broke. :lol2: 

Thanks for the kind words, i know it would help alot to get "real" training, but like i said, i really cant.

thanks anyway

Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## Knarfan

Well good luck! I hope your financial situation changes for the better. Keep on training on your own, you sound like you want to learn, thats a good thing . Somday maybe you'll be able to join a good MA school , were you will not only learn but, you are sure to make alot of good friends.

Happy Holidays!


----------



## Walter Wong

Your friends are not trained swordsman.  How do you know your stuff works against trained swordsman instead of self taught swordsmen?

If you taught yourself to punch and you punch the bag and spar around with your friends with punches, how well you think you'll do if you walk into a boxing gym and try to spar with one of their seasoned boxers and you try to land your self taught punches on them without getting your butt handed to you?

That's what your self taught sword style is.  Self taught punching.

Well, you can have fun with the bokken.  Until you are under the supervision and teachings of a legitimate instructor, just realize that you're playing no matter how serious think you're swinging, drawing or sparring with your friends who are self taught as well.

There are subtleties that mean life and death to sword fighting that will never be revealed through self teaching.


----------



## splice42

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> I'm sorry i was only really meaning to give an example of effectife self training, not saying Musashi was a hack or anything like that, i hope it did not come of as such. again sorry.


Your example was bad. Musashi did not self-train like you plan to do. From his childhood days, he was offered more training opportunities than you ever had. His father was a jitte expert. He fought and won his first duel at thirteen years old. He trained and tested his techniques in real shinken shobu. 

You read books and watch videos and try to imitate them. Please don't compare what you're doing with Musashi. You have no way of ever testing your techniques in true combat. You may as well be whittling wood. We don't use swords to fight or defend ourselves anymore, we preserve what has come before. In that respect, your practice doesn't mean much to anyone except you. Sure, you can swing a sword, maybe cut up bottles and stuff, and you can convince yourself you know how to fight and defend yourself. The problem is, you won't ever be in a sword fight. Japanese Swordsmanship is not a practical skill in this world, and any value in passing the teachings and lessons of those who come before are lost when you are alone and learning from a dead format that cannot interact with you in any way.


----------



## mtabone

Wolf, 


   You need to understand, you are very wrong here. I have known people that want to take martial arts so bad they found a way. Well, instead of, I am broke, I am broke, I am broke, why dont you set a goal, and change that? Then you can get real training, a real teacher, a real path?

   If you had a real teacher then you would understand everything everyone has said, not just typing the words I understand, but you would truly understand that you can not just do what you are doing. 



   Namaste,
   Mtabone

   PS- Why are you putting master in your name, it is the opposite of your current position in the ladder of the martial arts?


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Because Wolf-master is a charecter i have made, it means i am the master of wolves, not master at MAs. ( though i do see how that can come off like that, sorry.)

Well i am broke, and to young to get a real job(14, now when i'm 16 i can get part-time) , and i could probly use the money i'm geting for christmas to go, but i got to buy some oil for my sword, and i'm only getting about $22.50, and oil will run me close to $15.00, so i wont have enough, and yes i do understand, but understanding does not mean i can change my money situation, now does it?

R.W.-M.


----------



## Grenadier

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> and oil will run me close to $15.00, so i wont have enough


 
If you can't afford choji oil, then simply go to Lowe's or Home Depot, and buy some Superlube "Drifilm" lubricant.  It's Teflon solubilized in hexanes.  Once you spray it on your sword blade, let the blade drip dry (takes less than a minute) and wipe down the blade with a clean cloth.  You'll be left with a clean blade (hexanes rip many organics off your blade), and a nice, dry film of Teflon that guards against oxidation.  

It's not that expensive.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

kool, thanks, i'll check it out.  

Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## arnisador

mtabone said:
			
		

> You need to understand, you are very wrong here.



This is much too strong. I agree that training with a qualified insructor is best, but these comments are too harsh.


----------



## Charles Mahan

Not if he's training with a live blade as he says he is.  It's not too harsh at all.  If anything it's not nearly harsh enough.  These things are made to kill people.  They have no safety and they cannot be unloaded.  He has no supervision to speak of.  His mother knows less about sword safety than he does so she doesn't count.  If you hold your arm out to one side, and i hold the blade horizontal to the ground 1 foot above your arm and drop it edge down, there's a good chance that it will cause you injury sufficient to disable you in some way in that arm.  Particularly if you are 14 years old and have a 14 year olds arm.  We're talking a drop of 12 inches.  

Put the live blade down.  Leave it down.  If you must play at whacky smacks stick to wood.


----------



## arnisador

The live blade does worry me. But 'wrong' is too strong a word. Unwise, I'll accept.


----------



## Charles Mahan

If the kid was playing around with a loaded Saturday Night Special in his backyard trying to teach himself how to gunfight with his friends would that be wrong?  Or merely a unwise?


----------



## Knarfan

Since you guys are talking about live blade training, I think that anybody that attempts it especially with a sword is making a hugh mistake. This young man shouldn't be anyware near a live blade. I think that people like to train with live blades because it's a cOOl thing to tell their friends. Ronin, don't make that mistake,anybody that tells you live blade training will help you is wrong. Be smart & be safe.


----------



## arnisador

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> Since you guys are talking about live blade training, I think that anybody that attempts it especially with a sword is making a hugh mistake. This young man shouldn't be anyware near a live blade.



I absolutely agree.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Look, I have already said that i fight with my BOKKEN!!!!!! :whip:, not with my live sword, i dont do any thing with my live blade that i have not done with my bokken succecfully thousands of times! 

Again i'm not that stupid, read my post before you comment!

Oh and stop insulting me! "wacky sticks" (your going to piss me off) :flammad: 

you want to be helpful, be helpful, you want to insult, dont talk to me!


R.W.-M.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> If the kid was playing around with a loaded Saturday Night Special in his backyard trying to teach himself how to gunfight with his friends would that be wrong? Or merely a unwise?



Not trying to defend either point of view just asking some questions. 

Would it be acceptable or correct to train with a live blade, by themselves if the student, any student, had an instructor?

Would be acceptable for a strudnet to practice shooting by themselves once they had basic hand gun safety and training?


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## Lisa

_Mod. Note._ 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Lisa Deneka
-MT Moderator-


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## Knarfan

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Not trying to defend either point of view just asking some questions.
> 
> Would it be acceptable or correct to train with a live blade, by themselves if the student, any student, had an instructor?
> 
> Would be acceptable for a strudnet to practice shooting by themselves once they had basic hand gun safety and training?


 
No I don't think a 15 year old young man should be training with a live blade unless a qualified instructor is present. The problem that I can see happening when you get a couple of people toghther (especilly if they are young or self taught) is that one day they decide to do some live blade drill training with eachother , not a good idea. Thats the reason why I try & discourage live blade training , I think that there is a time & a place for it but, when I see people talking about doing live blade training who may not be ready for it I try & discourage it. So to answer the question with regards to RONIN , No I don't think he should be doing any live blade trianing , not untill he gets more experiance or has somone present who could help him just in case . Self teaching is ok for now just be safe & use trainers. This is just my opinion , the way I train not intended to put anyones way of training down .


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Well i to agree with that. I dont train with my live blade, i train with my bokken, my live blade is to show off and to do cutting every now and then.
The MOST "training" i do with my live blade is drawing it and sheathing it, cause i cant do that with my bokken.
what i do:

fighting: bokken

Cutting: sword

drawing: sword

trying new moves: bokken

I guess they are both used equaly, but i dont typicaly have anything to cut, infact i've only cut 2 things, and i'm getting better at drawing it. But most of the real "training" is done with my bokken, nothing dangerous is, will be done with my sword. As long as i am careful and do what i have been doing for the past year, i dont see the problem, anyone can mess up, infact i've heard of senseis killing there students, while trying to show something kool. I dont do these things, because if i mess up, someone will die. Duh.

Now i guess that not maney self trained people have such comon sence, by the sounds of it, they dont, but thats why i have said, that i am not like them, so dont treat me like them, i'm not stupid, or reckless when it comes to handeling a sword. I dont say "Hey, maybe we should have a sword fight and see who will win... oh and lets use the real ones so it loks kooler." that would be STUPID!! Now any one that says that, and does that, and is just that retarded, then yes, they get what the deserve. But i dont do stuff like that. not at all.



Ronin Wolf-master


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## Saitama Steve

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Would it be acceptable or correct to train with a live blade, by themselves if the student, any student, had an instructor?


 
Depends on the student's level and how many years he has been studying under that teacher. 



> Would be acceptable for a strudnet to practice shooting by themselves once they had basic hand gun safety and training?


 
Yes, when they are checked out by an instructor/safety officer. But this isn't marksmanship, this is swordsmanship and it takes a lot longer to learn how to do properly.


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## arnisador

I'm reading Rey Galang's new Masters of the Blade book and am surprised how many groups insist on extensive live knife training. Yikes!


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## Knarfan

arnisador said:
			
		

> I'm reading Rey Galang's new Masters of the Blade book and am surprised how many groups insist on extensive live knife training. Yikes!


 
Most groups including the group I'm involved in believe in live blade training . Speaking for my group , most of the live blade partner training is done by the highest ranked people in the system & they take safty precautions . Of course solo live blade training is more common throughout the group test cutting, drawing, projectile training. Sayoc kali is a feeder based system so I'm not sure how you would do much partner training with live blades (I'v done a minimal amount), it does have alot of benifits, but, you have to have a tremendous amount of trust in your training partner . The best & safest ways so far that I'v seen to do partner training with a live blade is to have a very highly skilled feeder either feeding a highly skilled reciever some controlled familar drills or a very controlled free flow feed , just hard enough so that the reciever feels a little uncomfortable . I think that these types of drills are very benificial but, both parties have to obviously be very skilled . There are a handfull of people who I train with who I would trust to feed me a live blade . It would be a tuff thing to self teach , it takes alot of skill & control .


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Well i will admit that when i was first getting into swords me and my friend went blade to blade with some wallahngers. yes i know, very,very,very,very,very,very,very BAD idea :whip: 

but we both trusted each other enough, and we NEVER got hit but each other,well execept that one time he was using hollow metal antenas and hit me right above the eye with them, it was quite funney once the pain wore off, we both laughed at it. But unless i had complete control over the one i was fighting with, so that i know everymove he is going to make, so i know where not to swing so i dont hit  him, or if we both trust each other and i know we will aim for each other weapons... yeah its fun, but with a real sword,#1 i would not want to messup my blade and #2, they are alot sharper and i will not ever try that, unless in a dojo, with a teacher.
again common sence should come into play, and wallhanger swords... well i dont recomend it be cause they could break at any moment, infact we dont do that any more, now that we know better.


Ronin Wolf-master


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## Knarfan

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Well i will admit that when i was first getting into swords me and my friend went blade to blade with some wallahngers. yes i know, very,very,very,very,very,very,very BAD idea :whip:
> 
> but we both trusted each other enough, and we NEVER got hit but each other,well execept that one time he was using hollow metal antenas and hit me right above the eye with them, it was quite funney once the pain wore off, we both laughed at it. But unless i had complete control over the one i was fighting with, so that i know everymove he is going to make, so i know where not to swing so i dont hit him, or if we both trust each other and i know we will aim for each other weapons... yeah its fun, but with a real sword,#1 i would not want to messup my blade and #2, they are alot sharper and i will not ever try that, unless in a dojo, with a teacher.
> again common sence should come into play, and wallhanger swords... well i dont recomend it be cause they could break at any moment, infact we dont do that any more, now that we know better.
> 
> 
> Ronin Wolf-master


 
So I guess I was right about the temptation to use live blades  ? Remember I'm a little older then you so anything that you may think of doing I probably have already tried, it's just human nature , you got it out of your system without any accidents . Hey there is nothing wrong with some controlled live blade training but, you need some intense training with a good instructor & you need to take every safty precaution possible . As long as you remember this you should be ok . Keep up the hard work with your training sword & when you can afford some instruction you can work on your live blade stuff . In the meantime try & treat your trainer like a live blade , thats what I do . Remamber training blades are your most valuble learning tool , don't underestimate them .


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Well once my Paw Paw's house gets build then he will teach me some TKD, he is a black belt, and once my Uncle comes down to see us, he will teach me some sword stuff, he was trained in Japan, but his specialty is Nunchucks, but he still knows a good bit. But in the meantime, i remain a Ronin, and i take as much safety as i can... and still move. :lol: (get it cause to much safety gear on and you cant walk... :lol: )


R.W.-M.


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## Walter Wong

Until you are training under the watchful eye of a legitimate sword instructor, you will be viewed just as the rest of the self taught fantasy swashbucklers out there.  You are not different from them.  They think they got the common sense as well and think they're doing it smarter and safer without a legitimate teacher just like you.  So you won't be taken seriously as a swordsman.  Like I said earlier, there are subtleties that mean life and death in sword fighting that won't be revealed through self teaching.

If your uncle is well trained in sword under legitimate instruction from Japan, well, you should wait til he gets to your house to start teaching you.  Learn from someone that knows how to use a sword.  Curious, what style of sword did he or he is training in Japan?


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## Franc0

Another way to look at this is to realise when going to an instructor, you are shown certain nuances that you, as a previously self taught practitioner, already knew or discovered. This will validate certain aspects of your self discovery into your training, which in turn makes your advancement in training personally acceptable . At the same time, the instructor will give you new and different perspectives on the same nuances that you didn't see before. So to me, even though Self Teaching/training is better than no training at all, there are times when you need more experienced insights to help your expansion of martial knowledge, be it swords, improvised weapons or H2H. When it comes to live blade training, we don't do it simply due to the Murphy's Law factor. If we want to see how well our knifework is doing, we feel marker drills are the next best thing.

Franco


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Walter Wong said:
			
		

> Curious, what style of sword did he or he is training in Japan?



you know.... i dont know, he says he knows Bushido.... wich i'm pretty sure thats not a "style" but a way of living... but i have no idea. all i know is he said he would show me some suff if he can come down before hes dead. :lol: .


R.W.-M.


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## Charles Mahan

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Not trying to defend either point of view just asking some questions.
> 
> Would it be acceptable or correct to train with a live blade, by themselves if the student, any student, had an instructor?


Assumming it was with the instructors knowledge and consent, of course.  In most schools of Iai, it is expected that all students will switch from iaito to shinken, eventually.  There are certain aspects of iai which are almost impossible to learn without the feedback and potential danger of a live blade.  I do not train with a live blade if I am completely alone.  The danger of severe injury, one from which i may not be able to recover enough to seek help are too high.  I only train with a shinken if there is someone else around.  Doesnt' have to be another student or instructor, just someone who can call 911 and help with a tournequit and or pressure until help arrives.



> Would be acceptable for a strudnet to practice shooting by themselves once they had basic hand gun safety and training?


 
You'd have to ask a gun person that question.  I suspect the odds of seriously injuring your self while training solo with a gun are somewhat lower than when doing solo iai training with a shinken.


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## Charles Mahan

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> The MOST "training" i do with my live blade is drawing it and sheathing it, cause i cant do that with my bokken.


 

Have you looked at this yet?
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083&perpage=36&pagenu mber=2

All he was doing was sheathing his blade as well.  I had hoped you weren't stupid enough to try shinken shobu.  Seems you did, but at least recognize it as a stupid mistake.  It's not you swinging at your friends with a live blade that I'm worried about.  It's more like a reoccurence of what happened to the poor fellow in that link.  He still can't move all his fingers properly from what i understand.  I'm sure he thought he was being careful and had practiced it all out with a bokuto as well.  He's forgotten more about knives that you're likely to ever know.  Didn't save him when he thought to do as you did.  You're 15 and think yourself indestructible.  Fine.  Have at it, but when you are loaded up in the ambulance, please don't tell the reporter that you were doing kenjutsu.  It makes the rest of us look bad.


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Yes i have already read that thread, twice. I just try to get faster at drawing my sword, sheathing it.. well i try to get better while not looking, but i dont do it fast.... i know that i'm not good enough, and that i could do the same as he did.


R.W.-M.


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## Charles Mahan

Then why persist in this? Why not take the advice that EVERYONE has given you.  Put the shinken down and don't ruin your life.  Wait for proper training.  You're only 15.  You've got decades of time to learn this stuff.  

Let's put it in perspective.  In the MJER style that I study.  I trained with an unsharpened iaito for 5 years before ever picking up a live blade, and I trained pretty heavily for those 5 years.  Still it took that long before sensei was comfortable putting a live blade in my hands for solo iai training.  Which is after all drawing and sheathing.  It's not as safe as you think, if you do it well.  It's god awful dangerous when done well.  And don't think dismembering injuries only happen to the poorly trained and self taught.  There was a relatively highly ranked individual out in California who'd been training a lot longer than I have who cut his thumb off drawing the blade.  There are plenty of other stories of folks in Japan who have injured themselves.  There was even a fellow in the dojo my instructor trained at in Chiba, who maimed the palm of his left hand so badly that he had to stop training altogether.  This stuff does happen.  Even to those with proper instruction.

BTW, I do wish you had taken my earlier advice to search the forums for other threads similar to this one.  You have not received a single piece of advice that has not been repeated over and over and over again.


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## Ronin Wolf-master

no risk, no reward.


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## Charles Mahan

For some reason my mercenary streak is failing me and i've continued to try to talk you out of your foolisheness.   Why do you keep trying to convince us you're right?  If it's validation you want, you won't be finding it here.


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## Knarfan

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Then why persist in this? Why not take the advice that EVERYONE has given you. Put the shinken down and don't ruin your life. Wait for proper training. You're only 15. You've got decades of time to learn this stuff.
> 
> Let's put it in perspective. In the MJER style that I study. I trained with an unsharpened iaito for 5 years before ever picking up a live blade, and I trained pretty heavily for those 5 years. Still it took that long before sensei was comfortable putting a live blade in my hands for solo iai training. Which is after all drawing and sheathing. It's not as safe as you think, if you do it well. It's god awful dangerous when done well. And don't think dismembering injuries only happen to the poorly trained and self taught. There was a relatively highly ranked individual out in California who'd been training a lot longer than I have who cut his thumb off drawing the blade. There are plenty of other stories of folks in Japan who have injured themselves. There was even a fellow in the dojo my instructor trained at in Chiba, who maimed the palm of his left hand so badly that he had to stop training altogether. This stuff does happen. Even to those with proper instruction.
> 
> BTW, I do wish you had taken my earlier advice to search the forums for other threads similar to this one. You have not received a single piece of advice that has not been repeated over and over and over again.


 
You bring up some great points about the dangers of live blade training even for highly trained/skilled individuals . Some of the highest ranked people who I train with who I consider some of the best blade people in the world have told me that training with live blades is very very dangerous no matter how skilled you are . They also told me of training accidents that they have had . Heck , I saw a friend of mine almost cut off three fingers pulling a blade out of a sheath . Ronin , I think that Charles is giving you some real good advice based on FACTS & I think you should take what he says seriously . He's not a no it all , he is a person with experiance , who is offering you some valuble info .


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## Ronin Wolf-master

I am understanding all of this. i know the dangers of usig a live sword blade, thats why i am most of the time using me bokken. I am as careful as i can possibly be, if i were any better i would be twins. :lol:  (its a joke)

I will try again to get "real" training, but i'm keeping my sword! and even if i have to self train, i'm keeping my sword, i have waited 2 years for it, and i WONT be giving it up, you would have to pry it from my cold dead fingers! :lol:  (its another joke... sortof)


I will be careful, and yall can be protective like you are, and we all get along. I appretiate the cncern, but i assue you, i'm fine, and i will be fine.

no risk, no reward.


R.W.-M.


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## Charles Mahan

Nobody is trying to take your sword away from you.  We're just telling you to put it down until you are ready for it.  We're trying to teach you to respect your sword, so that your sword does not teach you that same lesson.  If you do not treat it with the respect it deserves and leave it alone until you are ready for it, it will bleed you.  Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow, maybe not for a few months, but sooner or later it will lay you open and you will wish you had waited.  Just stick to wood.  Find instruction and it will still be there when you are ready for it.


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## BlackCatBonz

dont you know that 14 yr old pubescent kids know everything?
you will never talk him out of playing samurai or into finding a real teacher...........but you will probably read about him in the paper when he cuts off his own arm or leg.
i also find it funny how he has maintained an audience on the board.


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## kroh

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i also find it funny how he has maintained an audience on the board.


 
I think part of the reason for this is he did not go off in many of the directions of the self proclaimed samur-i-wannabe's. He didn't try to tell us he knew his stuff because he practiced on the tree with his stainless steel (which can cut down real trees, ya know). Instead he acknowledged his ingnorance of the subject, and after stating his age and reasons for not being able to train he respectfully said in effect:



> I can't do it, I will continue what I am doing, and take your advice when I am able...


 
He seems like he is trying to be respectful and we can all remember being at that age saying, "i want to learn to use a sword." Back then no one could tell us different either.

I totally agree with many of the fine people on this board who have many years experience with edged weapons...*Put the Katana down and step away with your hands held high*. We all see what seems to be a good kid in a tough place. All of us on this board want to help. Wolf, you should take Charles' advice and put that thing on a stand till you can get the proper instruction. 

Even though Wolf has said that his parents know he is being carefull, I personally think there is a parenting problem here. He has also said that he is being supervised. If he is not being trained, who is supervising him, and how is it they know enough about a three foot scalpel to feel confident enough to stand there? Some one had to go out and purchase an expensive DANGEROUS weapon (along with training weapon) capable of doing extensive damage to their child or some one else. But what really scares me is that they basically said...here ya go...and now are letting this young man swing this thing around. We have all seen the injuries in our dojo's (had one where I was training a few years back...thumb/saya...you do the math) and we are all praying this young man doesn't fall victim to one. 

Another reason i think this thread is so popular is a lot of the people who post regularly and are extremely knowledgeable about this subject have been posting and the subject matter has been kept extremely civil without a lot of moderator shooting. This thread should probably be _*stickied*_ so the next time a conversation like this comes to light we can say... See Also...

Regards, 
Walt


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## BlackCatBonz

i just think giving a sword to a kid is like giving them a grenade with the pin pulled. you'll be careful for awhile, but one day you will get too comfortable and BOOM!


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Thank you for the kind words. 
________________________________________________________________

I do respect my sword, and you know what, i'm going to be honest with all of you. It DID cut me. thats right it did, it sliced my finger.No peremanet damge, nothing real bad, just a slice on my finger. I take full credit and responsability for this, because i did screw up, i messed on one of my own rules. I was trying to sheath it quickly, and even had the bright idea to use my fingers to guide it in..... KIDS READING THIS..... DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!
It hurt.... it bleed. now its wrapped up, cause i hate bandades, so it is wrapped up with a red strip of fabric. My rule is only draw it quickly, once the enemy is gone or dead, take your time, nothing else is after you so take your time in sheathing it, the danger has passed, so dont be recklass. Yes i deserved it, i broke my own rule and now my finger is wrapped up.

I'm not claiming to know everything, yes i was very lucky. But out of 2 years of messing around with like 12" knives, and wallhanger swords, and now my real sword, and i only get one accidental injury.... i think its not such a bad record. it could have been worse, i could have lost my finger, also, i'm not quite sure how it cut me, when i slowly tried to reenact it... i could not, i guess i had the edge turned wrong.. i'm not sure, but thats not the point. :lol:

Yes i make mistakes, yall have even said that the students and teachers do to, and out of 2 years, only one scrach, i think i'm doing ok, for a self trainer. :wink: 

(Now i relize i've probly dug my grave and jumped in now that i send this, i'll never hear the end of it, and hey, you will all be proven right, that i do messup. Well hey if you want to jump down my throat so be it, i just thought i would be honest with yall, and let it be known, no i'm not perfect, no i'm not imortal, i'm just me.)

Oh and my parents think i'm fine with it, so do i, so plz lay off of them. thanks. :wink:

thanks

Ronin Wolf-master


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## Swordlady

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Thank you for the kind words.
> ________________________________________________________________
> 
> I do respect my sword, and you know what, i'm going to be honest with all of you. It DID cut me. thats right it did, it sliced my finger.No peremanet damge, nothing real bad, just a slice on my finger. I take full credit and responsability for this, because i did screw up, i messed on one of my own rules. I was trying to sheath it quickly, and even had the bright idea to use my fingers to guide it in..... KIDS READING THIS..... DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!
> It hurt.... it bleed. now its wrapped up, cause i hate bandades, so it is wrapped up with a red strip of fabric. My rule is only draw it quickly, once the enemy is gone or dead, take your time, nothing else is after you so take your time in sheathing it, the danger has passed, so dont be recklass. Yes i deserved it, i broke my own rule and now my finger is wrapped up.


 
So now you know first hand just how ridiculously easy it is to cut yourself.  I've nicked myself on my fingers many times - by simply _cleaning_ my swords.  Once I made a shallow cut across my knuckles because of a lapse of attention.

Do you see that even the simple act of drawing and resheathing your sword has certain nuances that *only a fully qualified teacher would be able to teach you?*  The sword art I practice (Yagyu Shinkage Ryu) has a blind resheath - but I started by _looking _at what I was doing before trying to sheath my sword without looking.

For the love of God, at least practice with an iaito (dull alloy blade used for Iaido) if you insist on practicing with a blade.  You've seen the pictures on the "self-teaching" thread on Sword Forum; if you are not careful, the same thing may happen to you.

I know that you are still young, but just to let you know, there are three teenagers who train with me at the dojo.  So yes, it is possible for someone your age to get some training.


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## Charles Mahan

I'm beginning to think there is truly no hope for this one.  One piece of advice for the Ronin Masta.  If you somehow survive your adolesence with all your digits attached, and seek real instruction, do your best to forget everything you've managed to puzzle out.  Why?  

For one thing you are most assuredly doing everything wrong.  I'll say it again, you cannot teach yourself that which you do not know.  If you were to seek out an instructor, would you look for one who didn't know anything about the subject at hand?  That's the person you have instructing you now.  

For another, if prospective instructors knew you'd been toying around after having been advised not too, there's a good chance they wouldn't take you on.  

About a year after I started training with a live blade, a visiting instructor asked me if i'd cut myself yet.  I was quite happy to tell him that no I had not.  He looked at me funny and said, "What are you doing wrong?"  i thought he was cracking a joke, but he wasn't.  Took me awhile to puzzle out what he was getting at.

Why is it so hard to stick to wood?  If you want to work on nukitsuke and noto find a plastic saya.  It's not that hard if you look around online.   A number of places sell them.  Then you can stick with a bokuto.


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## kroh

Well...we've made our case and whatever happens... happens.  

But before I sign out of this discussion...IMHO, it is pretty much criminal to have such a young (albiet mature)  man ( I won't call you a kid because you've been very polite here) being given a live weapon without the proper instruction.  

I applaud you for your efforts Wolf... I just hope you come through this safely.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Ronin Wolf-master

kroh said:
			
		

> I applaud you for your efforts Wolf... I just hope you come through this safely.
> 
> Regards,
> Walt




thank you, and i assure you i will be fine.  and thank you for being so nice to me Kroh. 
______________________

I'm not saying i cant go to training cause of my age, i'm saying i cant, cause i have NO money.None, not one dime that i could use to get me to one, and even if i could work something out to go to the dojo.... there is a thing called GAS.. wich keeps going up. No money = no dojo, meaning do it myself or dont do anything and still have the live sword.... if i dont do anything, i am most likely to get hurt by my sword, cause i wont know anything, so its either do it myself, or dont do anything.

no risk no reward. 

I will come out with all 20 digits (counting toes) and fully living. I do stick with my bokken, i dont wear my bokken like i do my blade, i dont take up as much love for my bokken as i do my blade, but i do train with my bokken. After listening to my know-it-all Uncle who is the one who told me to practice drawing and sheathing it, well now i'm not going to bother with it, i know how to pull it out, and once i'm done using it I can wach and put it back up. I'm going to go back to my original rules before my Uncle said anything.... train with bokken, show off sword,dot use sword unless doing some cutting or in life/death situation, wich there are plenty of ways to avoid such. so train with bokken, i am. :wink: 

(My Uncle was the one that was going to teach me... not sure he knows now.) :lol:

R.W.-M.


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## Clint Strickland

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> thank you, and i assure you i will be fine.  and thank you for being so nice to me Kroh.
> ______________________
> 
> I'm not saying i cant go to training cause of my age, i'm saying i cant, cause i have NO money.None, not one dime that i could use to get me to one, and even if i could work something out to go to the dojo.... there is a thing called GAS.. wich keeps going up. No money = no dojo, meaning do it myself or dont do anything and still have the live sword.... if i dont do anything, i am most likely to get hurt by my sword, cause i wont know anything, so its either do it myself, or dont do anything.
> 
> no risk no reward.
> 
> I will come out with all 20 digits (counting toes) and fully living. I do stick with my bokken, i dont wear my bokken like i do my blade, i dont take up as much love for my bokken as i do my blade, but i do train with my bokken. After listening to my know-it-all Uncle who is the one who told me to practice drawing and sheathing it, well now i'm not going to bother with it, i know how to pull it out, and once i'm done using it I can wach and put it back up. I'm going to go back to my original rules before my Uncle said anything.... train with bokken, show off sword,dot use sword unless doing some cutting or in life/death situation, wich there are plenty of ways to avoid such. so train with bokken, i am. :wink:
> 
> (My Uncle was the one that was going to teach me... not sure he knows now.) :lol:
> 
> R.W.-M.


 
         I self train as well and I'm pretty good  * supports Ronin 100% *


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## Ronin Wolf-master

Yeah Clint and i are training buddies actualy. we are good friends since like 4th grade.  :uhyeah: 

R.W.-M.


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## Clint Strickland

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Yeah Clint and i are training buddies actualy. we are good friends since like 4th grade. :uhyeah:
> 
> R.W.-M.


 
 UNFORTUNALY LOL jp.


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## Ronin Wolf-master

I know what you mean. :iws: 
lol
(jp)


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## Clint Strickland

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> I know what you mean. :iws:
> lol
> (jp)


 

      :whip:  Oh shut up LOL


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## Ronin Wolf-master

:lol:


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## Clint Strickland

yeah he always looses at the fight though lol


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## Ronin Wolf-master

ok on that note... :-offtopic lol


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## Clint Strickland

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> ok on that note... :-offtopic lol


 
     LoL:mp5:


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## Walter Wong

True age isn't always a factor. In fact we have a 13 year old girl that's training MJER with us. Nguyen Sensei don't typically take kids into the dojo to teach because of most kids's low focus, being easily distracted and bored and not continue training even within a 2 hour class time.  But this 13 year old girl we proudly have in our dojo is exceptionally mature and focused for sword training. She's been doing this for a year so far and does fine with her Iaito.

Ronin, seriously, you are just playing and what you are doing only likely shadows what real sword fighting is. This 13 year old girl in our Eishin Ryu class, even though she's a beginner with a year's worth of sword training, I am highly confident she knows more about sword fighting than you do and is more capable with a sword than you.

If you're doing what you're doing Ronin for the sake of knowing sword combat, and you're doing it through self teaching, you're just playing and hardly doing real sword training no matter how seriously you swing your bokken or sword around. Even though we don't carry a sword for defense and whatnot making swords pretty much irrelevant to your typical modern fight situation, if your interest is real combative applications with the sword, I'll repeat again, there are subtleties that mean life and death in sword fighting that won't be revealed to you through your self teaching.

It would not be sensible to try to self teach yourself boxing without formal instruction.  If you think so, go ahead and self teach yourself to box and walk into your local boxing gym and ask to spar with their beginners.  I don't think you'll be able to out box them.

Same if you think you can teach yourself grappling.  Go ahead and self teach yourself to grapple with your friends and whatnot, walk into a Gracie Jujutsu or Brazilian Jujutsu dojo and grapple one of their white belts and that white belt would have you submitted and tapping out right away.

How far you think self teaching yourself sword fighting will take you with real sword fighting?


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Well, i feel that all fighting is for the most part... instinct. read my sig.

also on another note, how maney people are carrying a sword that are going to start fights have had real training.... almost none. So they are self taught, and i can fght other selftaught people with the same odds of winning, gratned not many people fight with a sword today.. but thats beside the point, thoses that do are typicaly not trained, and thats why they start stuff... no respect, do disapline, no care for life.... and then they pick a fight with someone like me, or like even a real trained person and get there butts beat, and no i'm not saying i am as good as yall i'm just saying i have a good chance fighting other self taught people, and alot of people are. 

R.W.-M.


----------



## Ojiisan

Clint's opinion really is of no importance. They are two buddies (children)playing samurai. As for the person calling themself ronin; you can buy a bokuto and plastic saya at e-bogu for about $28. This way you can practice without the possibility of death.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Thanks for telling me where to buy a plastic saya for my bokken.

Not nice or kool to say that Clints oppinion does not matter and also not nice to call us children after we have been nice and respectful to everyone.
Just saying you could work on you people skills a bit.

i like your avatar. 

R.W.-M.

Ps. "Ronin" suits me since i dont have a master... kinda goes with the whole selftrain thing... yeah.


----------



## Ojiisan

If I recall correctly, you said you are 14 and if your friend Clint is your best buddy then he is about the same age.  Technically at age 14, you are classified as a child.  When you reach the age of 18 you are considered and adult.  Ergo, a person 14 years old is a child.


----------



## Ojiisan

Oh yeah, and at age 61; I believe I can call most everyone a child.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

no a child is a person of about 3-5 years, then they are a kid until they are 10 then once they hit 13 the are considered as a young man or a young woman, then at 18 and adult.
(no disrespect meant towards an elder. just stating facts.) :wink:



R.W.-M.


----------



## Ojiisan

whatever..............


----------



## Jade Tigress

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Pamela Piszczek
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Like i said, no disrespect meant, i just rather be called a teenager, or a young man, instead of a child.

surely you can see my point in this.

(just as an example, would you rather me call you a Man/Woman, or an adult, or would you rather me call you an old fart... or something like that. :wink: ) 

again that was just an example, i'm not really going to call you that.  :wink:

thanks.

Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## shesulsa

I encourage _everyone_ to heed the moderator warning.


----------



## bignick

Ojiisan said:
			
		

> ITechnically at age 14, you are classified as a child. When you reach the age of 18 you are considered and adult.



I've been an adult for four years?  Man, I better grow up.....

As for self training...can it be done?  Yes, is it worthwhile?   Well, I think Dave Lowry summed it up best in his article on "Lone Wolves".   Wolves are pack animals and the "lone wolf" is the one that was ostracized by the pack because there was something wrong with most likely...do you know what happens to most lone wolves?   They starve to death.

Nobody is going to dissuade you from doing something over the internet, but I encourage you to seek or delay training until an oppurtunity arises to train with a proper instructor.  If you do wish to learn from a qualified instructor and continue to "train" yourself you will find that you have most likely compounded the difficulty of your training by the foundation of bad habits you have laid.


----------



## bignick

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> also on another note, how maney people are carrying a sword that are going to start fights have had real training.... almost none. So they are self taught, and i can fght other selftaught people with the same odds of winning, gratned not many people fight with a sword today.. but thats beside the point, thoses that do are typicaly not trained, and thats why they start stuff... no respect, do disapline, no care for life.... and then they pick a fight with someone like me, or like even a real trained person and get there butts beat



I read this and you know what I see?  A youth living in a fantasy world where he can imagine destroying all the evil doers he comes across while walking the earth with his blade slung over his back....

Try walking around with a live blade for awhile and see how long you could make it until you are picked up by the cops.   Swords are no longer a practical weapon of self-defense, which sadly means that the arts that taught their methods are falling out of favor.  I once saw a guy showing his buddy his cane "sword" that took about 10-15 seconds for him to unscrew and draw.   They thought it was the coolest thing in the world and after he had resheathed I almost walked up and told him that he had 5 seconds to draw his sword and defend himself before I attacked him.  Thinking you'll be waving a blade around defending yourself is ridiculous, dangerous, and immature.


----------



## Knarfan

bignick said:
			
		

> I've been an adult for four years? Man, I better grow up.....
> 
> As for self training...can it be done? Yes, is it worthwhile? Well, I think Dave Lowry summed it up best in his article on "Lone Wolves". Wolves are pack animals and the "lone wolf" is the one that was ostracized by the pack because there was something wrong with most likely...do you know what happens to most lone wolves? They starve to death.
> 
> Nobody is going to dissuade you from doing something over the internet, but I encourage you to seek or delay training until an oppurtunity arises to train with a proper instructor. If you do wish to learn from a qualified instructor and continue to "train" yourself you will find that you have most likely compounded the difficulty of your training by the foundation of bad habits you have laid.


 
Good point Nick, bad habbits are very hard to break. On a side note, is that a picture of you Nick ? Jesus you are BIG :apv: . I doubt weather that guy with the sword would have taken you up on your offer .


----------



## Charles Mahan

Might I ask the moderators what has their dander up here?  I see no objectionable posts by anyone in the conversation.  Ojisan referred to our Clint and the Masta as children.  Since they are in fact children, surely this is not the cause for concern.  Did I miss a post where Clint or the Masta said something naughty?

Feel free to address this via PM if you think it appropriate.


----------



## tiburon

ok...so here is what I don't understand...

There's this 14 year old...and he is running around beating up his friends with a beveled stick and swinging a sword. Then there is the oxymoron right in the title. Self...Teaching...

How do you teach yourself something you don't know?

There are people who learn a principle and then build on it through intuition. Where did you get these initial flashes of insight? From what a friend told me, the old Japanese stuff used to believe they got their systems through divine guidance. But even these people were accomplished soldiers in their day. 

What do you really get out of this besides what Big Nick said...you get to live in a fantasy world? Would the samurai back in the day run around with clubs and fantasize about the times before swords and guns (yes they had guns) where people in really crappy armor swung clubs and shoddy spears at each other? NO because living in a fantasy would get them dead in the here and now ( well...the there and then but I am sure you get it).

Tell you what ronin...if you want to be a real warrior rooted in reality...here is something you can do right now...

Train in lots of calesthetics, run every chance you get for long distances, wrestle and box around with your friends and keep the good i'm not going to crap in anyone's hat vibe you have going...

...Then join the military and put all of that spunk (and whatever skills Uncle Sam gives you) to use. Fight for something real...

2 cents spent...
Vic


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Might I ask the moderators what has their dander up here? I see no objectionable posts by anyone in the conversation. Ojisan referred to our Clint and the Masta as children. Since they are in fact children, surely this is not the cause for concern. Did I miss a post where Clint or the Masta said something naughty?



Because the tone, and direction had gone off the "on topic and friendly" that we prefer. There's alot of good advice in here, from folks that know, and we'd like to keep it focused on that, rather than have things spiral out of control, issue warnings, suspensions, bans and black plague, y'know?  It's a 'nudge' to the group, not a "Hey you!" thing.

As to the topic of self-training weapons, I agree with the experienced traditionally trained folks here. I have a number of "sword like wall hangers" that decorate my wall. I don't train with them, too dangerous as they are too fragile. I own a Paul Chen Practical Plus Katana. I also don't train with it yet, as I have had minimal instruction, and have no desire to inflict damage on myself through my own ignorance. I do own several bokken, and a shinai, and train with those, as they are designed for training. I also have several padded weapons from SmakStiks that I use to spar with and try techniques with, in a safe enviroment. Lets just say that I'm not ready for prime time yet, and thats after several years work, both under FMA and JMA instructors, as well as self-training. You can swing it around, maybe ape the movie movements, but unless you have experience you'll miss the important nuances. In a fight, a centimeter may be the difference between a block and injury. You need an experienced eye to guide you. Without it, it's just play, and play gets you hurt.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> also on another note, how maney people are carrying a sword that are going to start fights have had real training.... almost none. So they are self taught, and i can fght other selftaught people with the same odds of winning, gratned not many people fight with a sword today.. but thats beside the point, thoses that do are typicaly not trained, and thats why they start stuff... no respect, do disapline, no care for life.... and then they pick a fight with someone like me, or like even a real trained person and get there butts beat, and no i'm not saying i am as good as yall i'm just saying i have a good chance fighting other self taught people, and alot of people are.
> 
> R.W.-M.



I said all of that, because there are cases of people walking around with swords and attacking people and threatening them. Infact last time i heard there is a CVS pharmasist in the hospital cause some punk slashed him with a wallhanger Kat. and was later caught at an apartment complex, and when the officer tried to get him to surender he pulled out his sword, and tried to kill the officer.................... who shot him. :lol:

So yes, it does happen. And where i am, people walk down the road carrying frieken rifels! LOADED! not to menshion one of the older kids who has a criminal rap for attemted murder to his ex. also tried to choke me once..... so yeah, i like to have a sword on. :wink:

and ya know, your not going to convince me other wise that my self training does not work. No its not the best, but i cant afford the best. So i'm not going to bother with it.

and no disrespect intended, but its not for anyone to say except for me and the 2 that brought me into the world. and we all agree. 

Thank you Kroh for trying to get me into a dojo, but even if i could work out something, there is still the thing of who will take me, and the gas money. i'm sorry but we just dont have it. Thank you though for giving me the idea, maybe in the future if things get better i can check it out.

again no disrespect intended.

Ronin Wolf-master

Ps. I will not fight for this country, because it is "going to hell in a hand basket", and it will be just like all the others. (We are in the last days, just read the Bible. ) Just to answer that. :wink:

Also this is my view on things, take it how ever you see fit. any questions, feel free to PM or e-mail me. again no disrespect intended. just saying my piece
thanks.


----------



## Charles Mahan

I'm washing my hands of this one.  He'll end up in jail long before he manages to hurt himself or find training either one.


----------



## Walter Wong

:lol: I hear you Charles.


----------



## pgsmith

Two cents from the outside ...
I am not going to repeat the many warnings that this young man has received about playing with swords. It is pretty darn obvious that he will do what he wants regardless of the fact that it's dangerous as well as pretty much useless. What I *do* wish to address is this statement right here that has been made repeatedly by the young man at the heart of this controversy ...





> I'm not saying i cant go to training cause of my age, i'm saying i cant, cause i have NO money.None, not one dime that i could use to get me to one, and even if i could work something out to go to the dojo.... there is a thing called GAS.. wich keeps going up. No money = no dojo, meaning do it myself or dont do anything and still have the live sword.... if i dont do anything, i am most likely to get hurt by my sword, cause i wont know anything, so its either do it myself, or dont do anything.


That sir is an excuse. An excuse to do what you want to without taking the responsibility for it. I have a young man at my dojo that is 14 now. I don't usually accept young people because, quite frankly, they usually want to do what they wish, not what's required. This young man convinced me to take a chance with him, and it has worked out well. His parents require him to pay his own way. He has paid $45 per month for about 18 months now. He bought his hakama and keikogi as well as bokken and iaito. He is upgrading to a better iaito since his cheap one has developed gata in the tsuka. He earns his money for class by mowing lawns, walking dogs, raking leaves, and washing cars. He made no excuses, he just made what he wanted happen. 

This is what you can do also sir. It is simply a matter of wanting something enough to find a way to make it happen. What you obviously want is to play swords with your friend. Make no mistake, it is playing. While it may be dangerous play, if you're careful you and your friend will live through it. I played some dangerous games when I was young also, and I managed to live through it. Of course a couple of my friends didn't, but no risk no gain right?

What you should *not* do is mistake what you are doing for anything other than playing. If you really wish to learn the proper use of a Japanese sword, you'll join a dojo. Until then, accept the fact that you are just playing with swords, and the community of those that _do_ practice the Japanese sword arts will not want anything to do with you.

Good luck, stay safe.


----------



## Clint Strickland

Ojiisan said:
			
		

> Clint's opinion really is of no importance. They are two buddies (children)playing samurai. As for the person calling themself ronin; you can buy a bokuto and plastic saya at e-bogu for about $28. This way you can practice without the possibility of death.


 
 Well it seems like someones just jelouse......


----------



## Clint Strickland

pgsmith said:
			
		

> Two cents from the outside ...
> I am not going to repeat the many warnings that this young man has received about playing with swords. It is pretty darn obvious that he will do what he wants regardless of the fact that it's dangerous as well as pretty much useless. What I *do* wish to address is this statement right here that has been made repeatedly by the young man at the heart of this controversy ...
> That sir is an excuse. An excuse to do what you want to without taking the responsibility for it. I have a young man at my dojo that is 14 now. I don't usually accept young people because, quite frankly, they usually want to do what they wish, not what's required. This young man convinced me to take a chance with him, and it has worked out well. His parents require him to pay his own way. He has paid $45 per month for about 18 months now. He bought his hakama and keikogi as well as bokken and iaito. He is upgrading to a better iaito since his cheap one has developed gata in the tsuka. He earns his money for class by mowing lawns, walking dogs, raking leaves, and washing cars. He made no excuses, he just made what he wanted happen.
> 
> This is what you can do also sir. It is simply a matter of wanting something enough to find a way to make it happen. What you obviously want is to play swords with your friend. Make no mistake, it is playing. While it may be dangerous play, if you're careful you and your friend will live through it. I played some dangerous games when I was young also, and I managed to live through it. Of course a couple of my friends didn't, but no risk no gain right?
> 
> What you should *not* do is mistake what you are doing for anything other than playing. If you really wish to learn the proper use of a Japanese sword, you'll join a dojo. Until then, accept the fact that you are just playing with swords, and the community of those that _do_ practice the Japanese sword arts will not want anything to do with you.
> 
> Good luck, stay safe.


 

 Actuall Wolfs post was 100% true, let me ask you a question do you know his personal life ? No you don't but guess what I do, so I advise you to NOT say what he is saying is an excuse. Got it, good. Oh also I'm not * Bashing* you I'm  just simpling telling you.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Thank you Clint.

No they are not excuses, i have tried to get into a dojo, or did everyone miss that, dang yall are hard of hearing. I CANT!!!!!! Everyone out here does everything them selves, their yard, their car, their house. i have only had 1 real job and that was after the hurricanes and i got paid 10 an hour, i made about ... close to $100, wich goes to..... my sword. WHY?

ok, so you learn from a man in a kimono, who learned from a man in a kimono... where does it all end, or start? Some where some how..... they figuerd out... sharp edge on this side, swing like this, it cut well, swing like this and it no cut. Personaly, if you cant keep the blade moving, without getting the edge pointed at you... you got a problem, if you cant move your feet and hands and arms all so that they work together, so you dont slice yourself, then you dont need a sword. Again, i've handeled swords, from real ones to wallhanger, to big knives, wich i own several also. 1 accidental cut to my finger, acting on the advice of someone who "knows" about swords, and 1 about 2 or 3 maybe 4 years ago with a pocket knife, all other cuts that have been inlicted to my hands were on purpose. 2 years of sword play, several years 3 or 4 maybe 5 with bladed weapons all together. as long as i follow my rules, i dont get hurt.
And i think i made it pretty clear i was going to do what i wanted in my last post. Until my money situation gets better... I CAN'T GO TO A DOJO!!!!!!! for the last time! :flammad: 
yes you all make good points, yes you are right, it is dangerous, yes i very well could kill myself, i could do it even if i was in a dojo. atleat this way i get to keep my $8. (yes thats all the money i have.) it would not pay for the gas to get half way there.

call it play, call it what ever you want. i'm doing it.why, because its my only option if i'm going to learn ANY thing.
and if it is so out dated and no one uses the arts... then why pay hard earned money to learn how to swing a sword?(... its not rocket sience.) 

Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Thank you Clint.
> 
> No they are not excuses, i have tried to get into a dojo, or did everyone miss that, dang yall are hard of hearing. I CANT!!!!!! Everyone out here does everything them selves, their yard, their car, their house. i have only had 1 real job and that was after the hurricanes and i got paid 10 an hour, i made about ... close to $100, wich goes to..... my sword. WHY?
> 
> ok, so you learn from a man in a kimono, who learned from a man in a kimono... where does it all end, or start? Some where some how..... they figuerd out... sharp edge on this side, swing like this, it cut well, swing like this and it no cut. Personaly, if you cant keep the blade moving, without getting the edge pointed at you... you got a problem, if you cant move your feet and hands and arms all so that they work together, so you dont slice yourself, then you dont need a sword. Again, i've handeled swords, from real ones to wallhanger, to big knives, wich i own several also. 1 accidental cut to my finger, acting on the advice of someone who "knows" about swords, and 1 about 2 or 3 maybe 4 years ago with a pocket knife, all other cuts that have been inlicted to my hands were on purpose. 2 years of sword play, several years 3 or 4 maybe 5 with bladed weapons all together. as long as i follow my rules, i dont get hurt.
> And i think i made it pretty clear i was going to do what i wanted in my last post. Until my money situation gets better... I CAN'T GO TO A DOJO!!!!!!! for the last time! :flammad:
> yes you all make good points, yes you are right, it is dangerous, yes i very well could kill myself, i could do it even if i was in a dojo. atleat this way i get to keep my $8. (yes thats all the money i have.) it would not pay for the gas to get half way there.
> 
> call it play, call it what ever you want. i'm doing it.why, because its my only option if i'm going to learn ANY thing.
> and if it is so out dated and no one uses the arts... then why pay hard earned money to learn how to swing a sword?(...* its not rocket sience.)*
> 
> Ronin Wolf-master


 
and you are not a rocket scientist........and you are not even a beginner. you are a kid walking around in a dark room.
just carry on with what you are doing and leave the real learning to the people that want to learn.


----------



## Clint Strickland

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Thank you Clint.
> 
> No they are not excuses, i have tried to get into a dojo, or did everyone miss that, dang yall are hard of hearing. I CANT!!!!!! Everyone out here does everything them selves, their yard, their car, their house. i have only had 1 real job and that was after the hurricanes and i got paid 10 an hour, i made about ... close to $100, wich goes to..... my sword. WHY?
> 
> ok, so you learn from a man in a kimono, who learned from a man in a kimono... where does it all end, or start? Some where some how..... they figuerd out... sharp edge on this side, swing like this, it cut well, swing like this and it no cut. Personaly, if you cant keep the blade moving, without getting the edge pointed at you... you got a problem, if you cant move your feet and hands and arms all so that they work together, so you dont slice yourself, then you dont need a sword. Again, i've handeled swords, from real ones to wallhanger, to big knives, wich i own several also. 1 accidental cut to my finger, acting on the advice of someone who "knows" about swords, and 1 about 2 or 3 maybe 4 years ago with a pocket knife, all other cuts that have been inlicted to my hands were on purpose. 2 years of sword play, several years 3 or 4 maybe 5 with bladed weapons all together. as long as i follow my rules, i dont get hurt.
> And i think i made it pretty clear i was going to do what i wanted in my last post. Until my money situation gets better... I CAN'T GO TO A DOJO!!!!!!! for the last time! :flammad:
> yes you all make good points, yes you are right, it is dangerous, yes i very well could kill myself, i could do it even if i was in a dojo. atleat this way i get to keep my $8. (yes thats all the money i have.) it would not pay for the gas to get half way there.
> 
> call it play, call it what ever you want. i'm doing it.why, because its my only option if i'm going to learn ANY thing.
> and if it is so out dated and no one uses the arts... then why pay hard earned money to learn how to swing a sword?(... its not rocket sience.)
> 
> Ronin Wolf-master


 
 Well said Wolf


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I dont have to be a rocket sientist, like i said its NOT rocket sience.

R.W.-M.


----------



## Clint Strickland

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> and you are not a rocket scientist........and you are not even a beginner. you are a kid walking around in a dark room.
> just carry on with what you are doing and leave the real learning to the people that want to learn.


 
 So you mean to tell me theres a secret hidden code on learning hjow to swing a sword? Well if there is pleas by all means share it with us ......... thought so


----------



## Charles Mahan

Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> So you mean to tell me theres a secret hidden code on learning hjow to swing a sword? Well if there is pleas by all means share it with us ......... thought so


 
We did.


----------



## Clint Strickland

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> We did.


 

 Oh really I don't think I cought it.... please by all means


----------



## Charles Mahan

Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> Oh really I don't think I cought it....


I think that comes as no suprise to anyone.


----------



## Clint Strickland

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> I think that comes as no suprise to anyone.


 
 Lol youre acting real mature Kid.


----------



## Clint Strickland

Oh also I forgot to ask, why are you always downing Wolf, has he done anything to you????? I don't really think so, so why don't you just go bust into someone elses life.


----------



## shesulsa

Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> Oh really I don't think I cought it.... please by all means



Being a martial arts student involves integrity in learning, integrity in teaching and honesty and responsibility for one's own deeds.  Swinging a sword around???  The masters, the greats, and even the true wannabes know that this is SO not what you want to do.

Your attitudes belie your intentions.

Ronin, you say everyone does their own lawns.  Have you bothered to OFFER? Have you thought of ASKING?? I'd be willing to bet you dollars to donuts that SOMEONE on your street is willing to pay you to do something IF YOU ARE PERSISTENT.  

Wanna learn? Find a way to learn from the masters.  Wanna earn some money to afford lessons?  Then hike your butt from house to house all around your neighborhood and do what everyone else does - earn their way.  Find a master who will let you clean the dojo in exchange for lessons, or babysit their children or clean his/her car.  Help plant and weed a garden for a disabled individual. Walk dogs. Clean their poop up for owners.  Carry groceries in for the elderly.  Just because you see them doing it themselves doesn't mean they ought to be doing it, like doing it, or are not comfortable letting you do it for money.

But do not ... DO NOT ... come in here and insult seasoned swordsmen by saying you are training because you are not nor by saying there is any other excuse for your not training other than you won't work for what you think you want.  A TRUE martial artist will NOT do this.  You are not exhibiting bushido which means you clearly need to learn it from someone else.

Good luck.


----------



## Clint Strickland

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Being a martial arts student involves integrity in learning, integrity in teaching and honesty and responsibility for one's own deeds. Swinging a sword around??? The masters, the greats, and even the true wannabes know that this is SO not what you want to do.
> 
> Your attitudes belie your intentions.
> 
> Ronin, you say everyone does their own lawns. Have you bothered to OFFER? Have you thought of ASKING?? I'd be willing to bet you dollars to donuts that SOMEONE on your street is willing to pay you to do something IF YOU ARE PERSISTENT.
> 
> Wanna learn? Find a way to learn from the masters. Wanna earn some money to afford lessons? Then hike your butt from house to house all around your neighborhood and do what everyone else does - earn their way. Find a master who will let you clean the dojo in exchange for lessons, or babysit their children or clean his/her car. Help plant and weed a garden for a disabled individual. Walk dogs. Clean their poop up for owners. Carry groceries in for the elderly. Just because you see them doing it themselves doesn't mean they ought to be doing it, like doing it, or are not comfortable letting you do it for money.
> 
> But do not ... DO NOT ... come in here and insult seasoned swordsmen by saying you are training because you are not nor by saying there is any other excuse for your not training other than you won't work for what you think you want. A TRUE martial artist will NOT do this. You are not exhibiting bushido which means you clearly need to learn it from someone else.
> 
> Good luck.


 
 Well have you ever been to his nieghborhood???? No you havn't theres only like 5 houses where he lives, and i know he has asked around, do you well it seems like you don't. As far as cleaning a Dojo, the nearest on is an hour away, and I don't think he can afford to do that often. So yeah before you bash him, you should know him. 

 No offense


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Ok in case someone does not get it, my name is RONIN!!!!
which means, i have no master, i do what i want, i train how i want, and no, i dont live by the *laughs* bushido.... way of doing things. *grin*
I am a ronin, i do it my way, cause thats the way i do it.


RONIN Wolf-master


----------



## Clint Strickland

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Ok in case someone does not get it, my name is RONIN!!!!
> which means, i have no master, i do what i want, i train how i want, and no, i dont live by the *laughs* bushido.... way of doing things. *grin*
> I am a ronin, i do it my way, cause thats the way i do it.
> 
> 
> RONIN Wolf-master


 
 * Agrees*


----------



## shesulsa

Yet you clearly don't recommend being Ronin, as you stated in your first post on this thread?

But judging from your actions, reactions to experienced swordsmen on this thread, perhaps Ronin is indeed the path for you since you clearly have no respect for yourself nor anyone else here.

Good day.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I have been quite respectful of everyone on here, but some of the people on here are the ones that arent listening and that are getting attitudes with me, first.
yes i did say that, no you dont want to have the life of a wandering ronin, but yes I DO! :uhyeah: 

Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## bignick

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> Ok in case someone does not get it, my name is RONIN!!!!
> which means, i have no master, i do what i want, i train how i want, and no, i dont live by the *laughs* bushido.... way of doing things. *grin*
> I am a ronin, i do it my way, cause thats the way i do it.
> 
> 
> RONIN Wolf-master



A ronin had a master at one point who has either died, been disgraced, or the samurai in question had been ostracized or refused further employment.  There was little honor in being a ronin, you would have been an object of scorn and humiliation.  Just because you were a ronin didn't mean you lived without rules and did what you wanted, you probably would have been so ashamed at your disgrace you would have killed yourself.



			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> *Bu&#183;shi&#183;do* _n.  _The traditional code of the Japanese samurai, stressing honor, self-discipline, bravery, and simple living.



If you're not living by principles like this...what are you living by?


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I did not say i was after honor, now did I?
A ronin, does not have a master, it does not mean he actualy had to have one, it simply meant also, just some guy with a  (one) sword on his side (instead of the traditional 2 that the samurai wore as a trade mark.)
In other words.... me.

Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## bignick

Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> Oh also I forgot to ask, why are you always downing Wolf, has he done anything to you????? I don't really think so, so why don't you just go bust into someone elses life.



Try running this "self-taught" line at some of the other martial arts boards and see how well you are treated.  This is a friendly place and everyone has been trying to give good advice that's been ignored or brushed off...


----------



## bignick

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> A ronin, does not have a master, it does not mean he actualy had to have one, it simply meant also, just some guy with a (one) sword on his side (instead of the traditional 2 that the samurai wore as a trade mark.)
> In other words.... me.



No.

The two swords were not a trademark.  They were a symbol of status and class denoting that that person was samurai.  Anybody that picked up a sword was not a samurai or a ronin.  It was a societal class you were born into.  And yes, by definition, a ronin had to have an employer or master at some point


----------



## tshadowchaser

Folks I am going to ask that this thread goes back to the original question and only that. This thread has gone all over the place and I am seeing issues that are close to becoming personal little flame wars. That being said:

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Sheldon Bedell-MT Moderator-


----------



## Clint Strickland

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Folks I am going to ask that this thread goes back to the original question and only that. This thread has gone all over the place and I am seeing issues that are close to becoming personal little flame wars. That being said:
> 
> Moderator Note.
> Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
> 
> Sheldon Bedell-MT Moderator-


 
 I agree with you.


----------



## Walter Wong

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Folks I am going to ask that this thread goes back to the original question and only that. This thread has gone all over the place and I am seeing issues that are close to becoming personal little flame wars. That being said:
> 
> Moderator Note.
> Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
> 
> Sheldon Bedell-MT Moderator-





			
				Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> I agree with you.


That's interesting coming from someone who makes nonmature/respectful replies like:


			
				Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> So you mean to tell me theres a secret hidden code on learning hjow to swing a sword? Well if there is pleas by all means share it with us ......... thought so





			
				Clint Strickland said:
			
		

> Lol youre acting real mature Kid.


agree with the moderator saying "discussion at a mature, respectful level."

Anyways, I agree with the moderator as well.

And once again, self taught fighting, sword or any weapons fighting never went far.  At best with self taught, you've developed a peasant killing style.  Peasants usually can't fight back so it's an easy win usually.

The real combative styles barehand or swords and other weapons had to be learned by a legitimate teacher before one could even stand a chance against fighting a swordsman or trained fighter.

The self taught will never be validated as real fighters, but as peasant killers at best.

Sparring with friends that aren't trained don't validate your self taught techniques as effective real fighting.  What a trained swordsman can do to you is far beyond what self taught swordsman can do to you when you try to attack/defend and etc.

There's a way to swing your sword that will effectively cut down your opponent.  There's a way to use your sword that will up your chances of surviving a sword fight.  Those are a couple of things that the subtleties of sword fighting that mean life and death that won't be revealed through self teaching and sparring with untrained/self taught swordsman friends.

You're trying to validate that what you're doing with bokken and sword is effective fighting.  You are completely wrong.
Of course with that dojo an hour away which is so difficult for you to get to, you'll never find out how many holes you have in your self taught attacks/defenses.  I guess til then you'll be the number one swordsman in your mind.

Well, that's enough from me.  My post is will probably be ignored by the self taught and lash back with insults if their feelings are hurt by the truth that's been posted several times by many trained fighters and swordsman (not including self taught individuals) in this thread.  The self taught will rain supreme on the internet.  Real life is another story.  Being teenagers and living at home with your parents must be a real hard life.  Wait til you move out on your own and work for a living cause then life really begins to get hard.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Ladies and Gentlemen,

There is alot of good advice in this thread. Also, some disrespectful comments, shots, and a few insults. Public warnings were issued, and some 'hints' given that were ignored. As a result, there have been some suspensions.

Please, if this thread continues, lets maintain a professional level from here on out. Like I said, lot of good advice in here, as well as in my opinion, a solid group of knowledgeable and experienced sword practitioners.

:asian:

(Meant to post this last night, so, it's not in response to Mr. Wongs post. Just want to be clear. Thank you)


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

Having read through this thread, it strikes me as an interesting debate.
Both sides seem to have interesting points. 

You have the experienced practitioners who have spent years, and in some cases decades training in an art that realistically today, has no battlefield use. This of course does allow them to focus on perfecting parts such as draws, cuts and stances, without worry that tomorrow they will have to test their knowledge in a life or death manner.

On the other side, you have the argument that there is no "secret", you don't need a "master" to teach you how to swing a long sharp blade around. They also have the lack of worry that tomorrow they will have to test their experience, and if found lacking, end up maimed or dead.

Both sides have a point. It doesn't take a genius to swing a sword. Any peasant in the middle ages could swing a sword. That didn't make them a knight. Knights and Samurai, in fact much of the "warrior class" through out history had some "code" to define what made them different from common rabble with sharp sticks. A code which had been defined and revised by generations of fellow warriors, not by themselves at their own whim. They were also considered to be adults by their culture, as warrior status was often a "right of manhood" awarded after passing some brutal trial. Those who failed, often died, and those who survived were not considered adults. I don't believe our young friends here can be considered "masterless Samurai", as they would have to have been a Samurai, or born into a Samurai family first. Aspiring to follow the code of the Samurai is noble, however I think one should seek the whole, not just cherry pick it for what you like, in order to be in a position to consider yourself one. There is also the question of who awards the 'title'. One, even in this day and age would be a bit presumptuous to simply say "I am a Master". I think you can without expert training figure out how to swing a sword. I think to learn to the level of the masters, especially today, when you do not test your mettle in life or death contests, you need an experienced teacher, and some years training.

In parting I leave you with these words of wisdom: Let all men who go to don armour tomorrow remember to go before they don armour tomorrow.


----------



## arnisador

bignick said:
			
		

> The two swords were not a trademark.  They were a symbol



Hmmm...let's see what trademark actually means:



_Abbr. _*TM* A name, symbol, or other device identifying a product, officially registered and legally restricted to the use of the owner or manufacturer.
 A distinctive characteristic by which a person or thing comes to be known: the shuffle and snicker that became the comedian's trademark.


(Emphasis added.) So...what exactly are you disagreeing with here?


----------



## Charles Mahan

The issue was not really about efficacy.  It was an issue of safety.  If the posters in question wanted to beat themselves bloody with sticks, great.  As long as they weren't claiming to practice any particular style, I don't think many of us would have cared a whit beyond warning them that what they were doing was dangerous.  The thing that bothered most of us was the insistence that they should train with live blades.  That's potentially VERY dangerous and was worth a little extra effort in the attempt to dissuade them.


----------



## Cryozombie

Mr, uh, Blackadder... 

One night, I was at a party, and there were a bunch of Dagorhier (or however you spell that) people there, all of whom were "self taught" swordspeople.

A couple of them kept goading me to swordfight with them, because the hostess of the party who was an employee of mine at the time mentioned that I had some martial arts training and that I could use a sword.

I have, in all honesty, had very little formal sword training, but, yes, some.  At the time of that party it was more limited than it is now, but I had done some sword on sword and empty handed VS sword at the time.

I finally was encouraged to fight after one guy kept popping me with his boffer sword to try and make me mad.

I killed all three of the "swordsmen" that I fought that night, despite the fact that they "train" and "fight" a lot, and I had very little formal training. 

My take based on that???

Real Training is Better than Self Learning.

Oh and... the two things all 3 of them had in common?  1) They took HUGE back or overhead swings drawing the sword so far behind them, that I had plenty of time to strike using a more "proper" stance, and 2) The would draw their bodys backwards while "reaching" forward to poke with the tip of the sword, allowing me to sidestep, strike the sword arm, and then "ride" the arm up to their neck and effectivly kill them every time. (which pissed them off to no end, because apparently strikes to the head are illegal)

So you never know, when you might be called to test what you know in (snicker snicker) Life or Death combat.


----------



## shesulsa

Darn it! forgot about this thread.  I'll have to agree with Technopunk.



			
				Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> It doesn't take a genius to swing a sword. Any peasant in the middle ages could swing a sword. That didn't make them a knight.


Training in weapons has been around since weapons have been around.  Fathers have taught their sons how to use the spear, the knife, the bow and arrow properly.  Swinging a sword makes you ... a biped swinging a sword. Whoopee.  No, it doesn't take a genius to swing a sword - it takes proper training, time and correct practice to make you a swordsman.



			
				Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Knights and Samurai, in fact much of the "warrior class" through out history had some "code" to define what made them different from common rabble with sharp sticks.


This is not all that separated them from lower class peasantry. Demonstrated skill with weaponry, in wartime and other times requiring skill and more than gallantry along with proper training would win you knighthood.  Not just ... swinging a sword around with your buddies and thinking that you really are quite good.

I'm curious - what is sword training like across the pond?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Some folks know I'm a fan of pro wrestling. 22 years of watching it, and frame-by-framing it, plus chatting with a few actual pros lets me know a little bit on how they do things. I can probably put on a 20 minute match at a respectible work level. But, you win't find me doing moonsaults, powerbombs, and 480' senton bombs off the top turnbuckle. That stuff requires expert training, and some serious concern for safety. I see swordsmanship the same way. You can swing a long sharp things around, and probably look half way decent (at least to those who don't know any better), but to be a true 'master', requires expert training, and a serious commitment to safety. IMHO.
:asian:


----------



## Makalakumu

Formalized training will always make you better and safer with a weapon.  Whether it is swords, knives, guns or sticks.  Yet, this debate keeps cropping up no matter how many times it is demonstrated.

Shooting, in particular, is notorious.  There are a lot of people across the country that think when they buy a gun they need absolutely no formal training in order to learn to use it.  They'll just go down to the gravel pit and shoot and everything will be great.

This may be true to a certain extent, anyone can pull the trigger and get the darn thing to work.  Yet, if you put someone like that...and he may have practiced like that for 20 years, next to someone like my uncle, who was trained by the US Marines, there is absolutely no comparison.  

There is a saying that is applicable here and I use it with my students when teaching weapons..."Practice does not make perfect.  Perfect practice makes perfect."

Formal training with a good teacher will teach one how to practice perfectly.


----------



## shesulsa

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> "Practice does not make perfect.  Perfect practice makes perfect."


My teacher's favorite saying. Lending to it is the fact that bad habits are HARD to break if you're practicing them all the time and it's even worse if you don't know they are bad habits in the first place.


----------



## Walter Wong

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Mr, uh, Blackadder...
> 
> One night, I was at a party, and there were a bunch of Dagorhier (or however you spell that) people there, all of whom were "self taught" swordspeople.
> 
> A couple of them kept goading me to swordfight with them, because the hostess of the party who was an employee of mine at the time mentioned that I had some martial arts training and that I could use a sword.
> 
> I have, in all honesty, had very little formal sword training, but, yes, some. At the time of that party it was more limited than it is now, but I had done some sword on sword and empty handed VS sword at the time.
> 
> I finally was encouraged to fight after one guy kept popping me with his boffer sword to try and make me mad.
> 
> I killed all three of the "swordsmen" that I fought that night, despite the fact that they "train" and "fight" a lot, and I had very little formal training.
> 
> My take based on that???
> 
> Real Training is Better than Self Learning.
> 
> Oh and... the two things all 3 of them had in common? 1) They took HUGE back or overhead swings drawing the sword so far behind them, that I had plenty of time to strike using a more "proper" stance, and 2) The would draw their bodys backwards while "reaching" forward to poke with the tip of the sword, allowing me to sidestep, strike the sword arm, and then "ride" the arm up to their neck and effectivly kill them every time. (which pissed them off to no end, because apparently strikes to the head are illegal)
> 
> So you never know, when you might be called to test what you know in (snicker snicker) Life or Death combat.


Thank you for sharing that.  That must have been fun to expose the weakness in self training.

Your background is Bujinkan I see from your profile.  I'd put my money on you over any selftaught swordsman.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm curious - what is sword training like across the pond?


Honestly? I don't know. I'm more interested the history than actually picking one up and swinging it about.


----------



## Charles Mahan

There is a fair amount of Kendo and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido.  A few other things.  A lot of the UK crowd hang out over at http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/index.php


----------



## Cryozombie

Walter Wong said:
			
		

> Your background is Bujinkan I see from your profile. I'd put my money on you over any selftaught swordsman.


 
Eh.  Im not that good, they were just that bad.


----------



## Knarfan

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Honestly? I don't know. I'm more interested the history than actually picking one up and swinging it about.


 
Of course your not interested in picking one up & swinging it about. People who like to train do that , they not only are interested in the history but, they also like to do their own swinging & learning. The way I see it is there are two types of people in this world the doers & the talkers. The doers are the people who actually have some formal training & love to learn, the talkers are the self taught who really don't want to do any serious training but, they want to reap the benefits & take credit for skill that they actually don't have, why? because there is somthing missing. it actually takes somone who has the drive to actually pick up a weapon put out some of their hard earned money & get off their lazy rear end & put in some serious training time & effort to learn & learn how to respect somone elses skills. I see it all of the time in my training , the fact is people want it to be easy they don't want to work for it but, they will always have plenty to say about the subject, but thats ok, talkers talk & doers TRAIN....


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Darn it! forgot about this thread. I'll have to agree with Technopunk.
> 
> 
> Training in weapons has been around since weapons have been around. Fathers have taught their sons how to use the spear, the knife, the bow and arrow properly. Swinging a sword makes you ... a biped swinging a sword. Whoopee. No, it doesn't take a genius to swing a sword - it takes proper training, time and correct practice to make you a swordsman.


 
I believe that was my point.



> This is not all that separated them from lower class peasantry. Demonstrated skill with weaponry, in wartime and other times requiring skill and more than gallantry along with proper training would win you knighthood. Not just ... swinging a sword around with your buddies and thinking that you really are quite good.


 
Again, that was my point.

To be a true swordsman, through out history, required a level of skill, that was not just picked up by swinging a sword around, but through practice, under the eyes of an experienced instructor, and real world battlefield testing. The European knights had a system of training, squires and all that, the gladiators had trainers, the Romans had weapons masters, etc.


----------



## shesulsa

Ah. Must have gotten lost in the translation - either by the writer or the reader - not sure which.


----------



## Knarfan

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> I believe that was my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that was my point.
> 
> To be a true swordsman, through out history, required a level of skill, that was not just picked up by swinging a sword around, but through practice, under the eyes of an experienced instructor, and real world battlefield testing. The European knights had a system of training, squires and all that, the gladiators had trainers, the Romans had weapons masters, etc.


 

Well put Edmund!


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

Knarfan said:
			
		

> Of course your not interested in picking one up & swinging it about. People who like to train do that , they not only are interested in the history but, they also like to do their own swinging & learning. The way I see it is there are two types of people in this world the doers & the talkers. The doers are the people who actually have some formal training & love to learn, the talkers are the self taught who really don't want to do any serious training but, they want to reap the benefits & take credit for skill that they actually don't have, why? because there is somthing missing. it actually takes somone who has the drive to actually pick up a weapon put out some of their hard earned money & get off their lazy rear end & put in some serious training time & effort to learn & learn how to respect somone elses skills. I see it all of the time in my training , the fact is people want it to be easy they don't want to work for it but, they will always have plenty to say about the subject, but thats ok, talkers talk & doers TRAIN....


Are you saying sir, that just because I do not train this weapon, I should have no opinion of it, it's use, it's training, and it's history? That I should hold my tongue and that historical information has no bearing on this topic? 

I find the training of ancient weapons to be a quaint, but mostly pointless practice. I am not likely to be attacked by someone weilding a sword and wearing armour, or from horseback, or swinging a rice flail. However, the practice does have a traditional value, and the skills and knowledge should be preserved, so I find no fault with those who choose to do so. I admire those who do commit the time and effort to do so, it's simply not my thing.


----------



## shesulsa

Looks to me like he might have been addressing the general "you" there, Ed. May I call you Ed?


----------



## Knarfan

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Are you saying sir, that just because I do not train this weapon, I should have no opinion of it, it's use, it's training, and it's history? That I should hold my tongue and that historical information has no bearing on this topic?
> 
> I find the training of ancient weapons to be a quaint, but mostly pointless practice. I am not likely to be attacked by someone weilding a sword and wearing armour, or from horseback, or swinging a rice flail. However, the practice does have a traditional value, and the skills and knowledge should be preserved, so I find no fault with those who choose to do so. I admire those who do commit the time and effort to do so, it's simply not my thing.


 
Not at all sir. I was talking about people who don't train at all, not you. Your opinion sounds like it comes from an educated point of view. I was speaking in more general terms, you definatly weren't the subject that I was talking about. I apologize, I really wasn't talking about you. I guess I may have made an error in my presentation? My apologies ....


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

No harm. My apologies as well for being a little short in my reply.

And Shesulsa, you may. But not Mr. Ed please.


----------



## Knarfan

Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Cryozombie

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> No harm. My apologies as well for being a little short in my reply.
> 
> And Shesulsa, you may. But not Mr. Ed please.


 
But he's the Famous Mr Ed.  What About Eddie? Or Eddie B?

Can I call you Eddie B?


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

:-offtopic 

Just saying.


----------



## Hyaku

A lot of people tend to quote Miyamoto Musashi as a good example of being self taught. Fact of the matter is there was no one before him and no one follow.

Waza nowadays is based on old tried and tested techniques. If one was to make up ones own one would have to be in a life threatening situation or face serious injury. Most of the people who do sword arts nowadays would most likely wet themselves.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Hyaku said:
			
		

> Most of the people who do sword arts nowadays would most likely wet themselves.



:lol2: :lol2:  :lol2:


----------



## pgsmith

> Most of the people who do sword arts nowadays would most likely wet themselves.


  Doesn't apply to just swords, but most martial arts in general. Lots of talk in the unarmed arts about "self defense" from people that have never been in life threatening situations. Then an entirely seperate group are the kids that watch too much anime and read too many manga about samurai and ninja. Saw one of those last year that ticked off the wrong person, and I thought he truly _was_ going to wet himself!


----------



## Charles Mahan

I suspect that's true of humans in general and is not strictly speaking limited to modern times.  I suspect it's the reason for the age old idea of train till it's automatic so that when the **** hits the fan(or your britches as the case may be) you can allow your training to take over.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

You mean I can't really wave my sword and have fireballs reign from the heavens? Darn it, there goes my whole battle plan for when I'm attacked by NeoNinjas.


----------



## Cryozombie

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> You mean I can't really wave my sword and have fireballs reign from the heavens? Darn it, there goes my whole battle plan for when I'm attacked by NeoNinjas.


 
I thought you did that in Kungate?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

We do, but the fireballs don't come from the Heavens......


----------



## Walter Wong

Unless you've been in a fight or almost close to real fighting, you won't know how well you'll stay calm.  The most skilled can get so afraid that all that skill will go out the window.  People will not know how afraid or how calm they'll be when faced with a real life situation til it happens.  When the times comes, you will truly know.  If you can stay calm, you have a better chance of those automatic skills coming out.  If you become afraid, then whether you got skills or not, the fear will overcome you and not much of a productive response comes out.  Though it is natural to be afraid.  You have to be pretty stupid to not have some fear of a dangerous situation.  Cause afterall, it's your life.  Martial Arts, sword arts is not as glamorous and exciting as it seems in movies and anime make it appear to be.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Well i was put into a situation where I could have been maimed or even killed. A very big and very mean and agressive bulldog charged me once, stood about 3-4 feet tall big mouth lots off teeth, charged me growled went to bite my leg, got hit in the head with a sword blade.... then on the back of the neck with a machete..... in the end i won, but i had a cheap wallhanger sword and a $6 machete so i did not kill the mut.... which it latter amost maimed my Chow Chow cause it came back in my yard and i was gone, if it had not been for my Dad my Chow, Shado, would have died.

Self trained, yes i am, scared to fight, no i'm not, looks for fights, No i dont.


----------



## Blindside

Unbelievable, this thread just won't die.


----------



## Walter Wong

Sorry Blindside.  I probably shouldn't have posted anything to lead up to more silliness.  I should have kept my mouth shut.


----------



## pgsmith

> We do, but the fireballs don't come from the Heavens......


There's a little Mexican restaurant here that will do that to ya. Great spicy food and cheap beer works every time!  



> Self trained, yes i am, scared to fight, no i'm not, ...


In that case, you are either ignorant or incredibly foolish. Since tackling the dog is your idea of a fight, I will assume ignorant. You should *always* be afraid to fight, just as you should always be afraid when doing anything dangerous. Fear is nature's way of letting you know you can screw up. There are times when dangerous things are needed, fear or not. The measure of a man is not if he is afraid, or whether he'll fight. The measure of a man is will he do what he needs to, afraid or not.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

fighting dogs is cool!!!


----------



## Swordlady

Wolf, have you read through these threads on SFI?

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=259289

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=430470

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=545095

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=549722

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=553116

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52432

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53223

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56017

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57784

Keep in mind that there are many practioners of sword arts on SFI.  Notice a common theme from the experienced?


----------



## kroh

Sword Lady San....

You are talking to a wall, an immutable position where no ammount of experience or education will sway from this stance.  If anything I applaud his fudoshin.  

By the way....you have the coolest avatar in the world.
Regards, 
Walt


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I'm not scared to fight, there is a fear of messing up, but I dont let that get to me, or i most likely will mess up. I basicaly ignor it, so i can stay calm, and level headed.

(Yes you are talking to a wall, I will stay self trained.) :whip:  


also.... this might sound stupid, but what is fudoshin?


----------



## Charles Mahan

A former marine(never call them ex-marine's, they hate that) friend of mine told me once that "No apparent fear of death" is a charge that can get you thrown out of the millitary.  It is not an admirable trait.

Guys and gals, our friend just needs to grow up some.  We're not gonna reach him until he does.  His parents will not intervene, so he is left to fumble on his own.  With a little luck his fumbling won't kill or maim him or anyone else before he does grow up.

He is a brick wall by his own admission and will do whatever he likes no matter what anyone says, which of course begs the question, why is he even bothering to post here?  He doesn't want advice.  Trying to give advice would be silly and he is very unlikley to get any tips or have any meaningful discussions with anyone on this forum.

Can we get a moderator to please lock this thread?  It has far outlived it's usefulness.  Don't delete it, this thread should be kept so that we can refer others to it.  Heck it should probably be made sticky.


----------



## Swordlady

Thanks for the compliments on my avatar, Kroh.  I am quite a "Star Wars" geek...

I second the locking of this thread, and would also like to see it Stickied.  I really hope and pray that Wolf doesn't seriously hurt himself, like our friend Don Rice on SFI (another "self-taught" swordsman).

By the way, Charles...you know who I am, right?


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I am not asking for advice, i am trying to basicly be the voice of the self taught, there are plenty that are speaking for the "trained". I can have plenty of conversations with all of you, and know what i'm talking about.
You say that if i really wanted training i could find away.... well i have tried to find ways, for me there are none, and there might be the same thing for others, thats why we do it our selves, there are no other options. So with that in mind, i speak on my behalf, a self taught swordsman. My point is to not judge all selt trained people, we are all dif., some are good, some suck, we train dif. so to say they all suck.... have you faught all of them, no, so you cant say that and be truthful. Dont look at us like we are stupid, we are doing he best we can, and the best we know how.

And fear of battle can get you killed alot quicker then not being afraid.


Ronin Wolf-master


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## Charles Mahan

Ronin, 

By now you should realize you won't be convincing anyone.  

SwordLady,

He's been pointed to the unfortunate self training incident that Mr. Rice experienced multiple times, but he's young and foolish and will not listen.  As to who you are, I have my suspicions.


----------



## KenpoTess

Assist. Admin Note:

Please keep to topic.. there is no need to lock this thread.
Keep the personal issues off board and feel free to utilize the ignore feature if you don't wish to read another member.

If you have problems please PM an Admin.

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT Assist. Admin


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Assist. Admin Note:
> 
> Please keep to topic.. there is no need to lock this thread.
> Keep the personal issues off board and feel free to utilize the ignore feature if you don't wish to read another member.
> 
> If you have problems please PM an Admin.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> ~Tess
> -MT Assist. Admin



I agree.


----------



## Grenadier

Wolf,

Even if there are no other kendo / kenjutsu / iaido (etc) teachers in the area, have you explored the possibility of fencing?  There should be several clubs in your area, especially if there are some colleges around.  




			
				Swordlady said:
			
		

> By the way, Charles...you know who I am, right?


 
Heh.  A fellow swordforum.com poster, although you did change your avatar there!


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Just a side note: I personally value the input of all of the experienced practitioners here, being in a similar "opportunity-poor" position as our young self trainers here. I however choose not to risk self-inflicted injury and will wait until such time as I can locate someone who can train me properly. I ask that while situations such as this can frustrate you, that you please use the features available here such as the "ignore" function to help minimize "frictionable situations".

Peace.


----------



## Cryozombie

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> also.... this might sound stupid, but what is fudoshin?


 
When you get some training, you will find out.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## arnisador

Fencing is a good suggestion. Often a local college will have a club--they'll at least know what's in the area.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

In my case, the local fencing school is too "linear" for me. (Good school, just not what I'm looking for.)  The FMA training's taught me too much side stepping it seems. LOL!


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Wolf,
> 
> Even if there are no other kendo / kenjutsu / iaido (etc) teachers in the area, have you explored the possibility of fencing?  There should be several clubs in your area, especially if there are some colleges around.



There are none. Besides i dont like fencing, when i was going to publick school they started teaching that, but it sucked (to me). Its not just that there are no places, but that i dont have money to go, and its not just that i dont have money to go, its also that there are no places close enough. I train with my bokken and am as carefull as i can be. :redeme:  thats all i can do.


----------



## Swordlady

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Just a side note: I personally value the input of all of the experienced practitioners here, being in a similar "opportunity-poor" position as our young self trainers here. I however choose not to risk self-inflicted injury and will wait until such time as I can locate someone who can train me properly. I ask that while situations such as this can frustrate you, that you please use the features available here such as the "ignore" function to help minimize "frictionable situations".
> 
> Peace.


 
It's very hard for experienced sword practioners to ignore the "self-trained swordsmen" (a term I'm using VERY loosely, mind you), not just because of the potential injury that may occur (e.g., Donald Rice) but also because some of us live in countries where sword ownership is being challenged.  We already have the misfortune of being misunderstood by many lay people and other martial artists, and are often lumped together with "gun nuts".  It also doesn't help that crimes committed by sword seem to be happening more frequently nowadays; I've lost count of the number of threads started on SFI about the latest incident.  The last thing that we need are more irresponsible people picking up swords, playing "swordmaster", and hurting themselves - or God forbid, another person.  We don't need any more negative publicity.  I, for one, do NOT want my swords taken away because of the irresponsible actions of a few.

I take my JSA training very seriously, and it does irk me when some people act like their brand of "self-taught" swordsmanship is equal to an established fighting system that has been passed down by _genuine_ masters of the art.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

"Self Taught" can't compare to qualified instruction, and I'm in complete agreement. I personally think anyone who does believe it, simply doesn't understand the nature of the beast.

As to the problems some morons cause, I don't want my swords taken away either because some wannabe-samurai decided to play warrior because it looked "cool". I had to cross Australia off my list of possible homes because of their anti-sword laws.

There are plenty of opportunities for those who are serious, and I feel those who find fault in every opportunity for legit training, lack the maturity to understand the deeper and finer points of any art, not just sword arts. Theres more to any art than just a bunch of movements. The ideas, the fine-tuning, all those require an experienced eye. That's why boxers don't just pick up gloves and fight, they hire coaches and trainers to guide them and focus them. I currently train in the FMA, and while some may say it's just swinging a stick, there is so much more to it that it's not even funny. Same thing with sword arts. Sure its just 'swinging a blade', but it's the little things that make the difference between some jerk with a machete, and a sword master (which is a personal goal of my own).

Backyard self training a martial artist does not make.


----------



## pgsmith

> I am not asking for advice, i am trying to basicly be the voice of the self taught, there are plenty that are speaking for the "trained". I can have plenty of conversations with all of you, and know what i'm talking about.


  No sir, I have to protest your motives for being here. You cannot be the "voice of the self taught" since you haven't been alive long enough to have done more than played with your toys. You have no life experience, you have no weapons experience, you have _absolutely no way_ of having any clue as to whether what you are doing is anything like what it should be. You have no idea whether what you are doing is valid or not. None. Not even a smidgen. The only way to gain any idea is to learn from someone that already knows since you can't put swordwork into practice without dying or going to jail. That was the point I made earlier in this thread, but you chose to ignore it. You are ignorant, but ignorance can be cured with knowledge. However, when a person revels in their ignorance in order to gain attention, that indicates a deeper problem. 

  Anyone can learn to swing a sword around. most can learn to do that without causing serious injury. However, it is physically impossible to say that you are "training" in a "sword art" unless there is someone qualified to tell you what you are doing. 

  Personally, you sound exactly like most of the young teenage kids I deal with. They make excuses all the time also. I always tell them what an old apache gentleman told me when I was close to your age and was making my own excuses. He told me to look very carefully whenever I make an excuse. He said that nobody ever makes an excuse unless they've screwed something up. If you find yourself making an excuse for anything, look very carefully to discover just what it is that you've screwed up.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i really dont think a 15 year old kid with the word "master" in his name, espousing self training for a serious study deserves a place in this forum.

just my opinion


----------



## Charles Mahan

pgsmith said:
			
		

> The only way to gain any idea is to learn from someone that already knows since you can't put swordwork into practice without dying or going to jail.


 
See that's one of the things that i find so disturbing about this kid.  He posted this:



> So yes, it does happen. And where i am, people walk down the road carrying frieken rifels! LOADED! not to menshion one of the older kids who has a criminal rap for attemted murder to his ex. also tried to choke me once..... so yeah, i like to have a sword on. :wink:


 
It sounds disturbingly like he has every intention of having a sword handy in case he does get to put his stuff into practice.   The kid sounds like he's looking for an excuse.  At least his latest posts make it sound like he's only swinging wood now.   Perhaps we got through to him a little bit.

I sure wish i understood why the moderators are letting this thread stay open.  There is no dicussion here.  There are a couple of kids talking about how cool their backyard ryu is and imploring us to take them seriously and pretty much everyone else trying to talk them into real training or at the very least a few meaningful safety precautions along with some warnings that whatever it is they are doing is nothing at all like the real thing.  That pattern in the thread became obvious 5 or 6 pages ago.  Nothing of any real value has been contributed in all that time, nor is likely to be.  The topic is well and truly done.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The question of closing this threads being discussed. It's not usually our policy to lock things unless they really get out of hand. This thread hasn't done that, though probably could stand to simply die off. There's been alot of good arguments against self training through out, and some good links.


----------



## Charles Mahan

Oh don't get me wrong.  The thread is very valuable and should be hung on to.  Heck I'd make it sticky. I probably will post links to with in the rules posts over at Budoseek and FightingArts.  That is if i ever get around to writing those posts


----------



## MJS

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> I sure wish i understood why the moderators are letting this thread stay open. There is no dicussion here. There are a couple of kids talking about how cool their backyard ryu is and imploring us to take them seriously and pretty much everyone else trying to talk them into real training or at the very least a few meaningful safety precautions along with some warnings that whatever it is they are doing is nothing at all like the real thing. That pattern in the thread became obvious 5 or 6 pages ago. Nothing of any real value has been contributed in all that time, nor is likely to be. The topic is well and truly done.


 
The old saying "don't add wood to the fire" comes to mind here.  I agree, the topic is pretty much a redundant issue.  IMHO both sides have stated their views.  Eventually, threads will die out due to inactivity, lack of interest, or nothing else worth saying.  That being said, I have noticed a few people state that they wish that this thread would be locked.  That probably will not happen, for reasons already said, but by not replying to posts, the thread just may get the rest that it needs.

Just my .02.:asian: 

Mike


----------



## Ojiisan

One may think they are self-taught, whereby they have seen or heard something that they copy.  Kenny Wayne Sheppard is a self-taught guitarist; however, he began by trying to play like Muddy Waters who he listened to from his father's record collection.  True self taught would be someone in total isolation coming up with a method of playing a musical instrument, fighting, etc.....   So, in today's world; there is no pure self-taught.


----------



## Charles Mahan

Not too long ago someone collected a list of sword training accidents.  It surfaced on E-budo.  So here's the link for anyone who's interested.

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/darwin.html


----------



## shesulsa

I think everyone who attends a training center that has weaponry (even if it's decorative only) should read that thread on Don Rice as well as the link you posted, Charles.

It's oh-so-very easy to forget that we are, indeed, training with weapons and that these weapons maim and kill, even today.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

I have already said that i train with my bokken, not with my sword, why is it so hard for yall to get that? I only oil and cut stuff with my sword, typicaly boxes, mayby pool noodles every now and then. Gees yall sound like a brokken record, quit acting like i am training with my live blade, i'm not. thats the last time i'm saying that. 

I do take saftey measurs to the best that i can, tomorrow i will  be going to the Library to see if they have any books on iaido. (But i will still be training with my bokken. )
And the "master" in my name indicates master of wolves, not sword master, i already said that also.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

well Mr. Master, i would suggest that you keep the sword in the closet and refrain from cutting anything with it.......every second you have it out is like having a loaded gun pointed at you.
but dont take my word for it........what the hell do we know?


----------



## Swordlady

Wolf, earlier in this thread, your friend Clint said that the two of you are "training buddies".  What are you using in your "sparring sessions"?  Bokken?  Do you know how easy it is to hurt someone with even a wooden sword?

To give you a real life example from the dojo, we were doing partnered exercises with bokken on the floor one day.  Not sparring, just going back and forth, alternating strikes with the bokken.  One would be the "attacker", pressing the other backwards towards the wall.  He would end with a shot to the head, which isn't supposed to connect.  The final blow was to be _just short_ of its intended target.  Well...one of the students miscalculated, and his bokken _connected _with his partner's head.  It wasn't a full-force strike, mind you.  But it was enough to split the skin on his partner's skull, causing him to bleed profusely on the mat.  His wife had to come to the dojo and take him to the hospital, where he received stitches.  He was lucky that he only needed stitches.  It doesn't take much to crack a skull with a well-placed blow by a wooden sword.

Please think about this carefully, before you decide to play "backyard samurai" with your buddy.


----------



## arnisador

We're now against _wooden _swords? Sheesh! Will people advise him to cut his steak with a cardboard knife so he doesn't lose a finger?

Obviously, people shouldn't practice with live blades if they aren't well-trained and well-supervised. But this is just too much. If I had been prohibited from picking up a broomstick and swinging it like a staff, I might never have followed up by wanting to learn martial arts.

Has no one ever seen kids playing cops and rubbers with toy guns? A bokken is a training weapon. Yes, you can hurt someone with it...though it doesn't take much to get a lot of bleeding out of a cut to the scalp. But if they're swinging bokken-shaped sticks at one another then they're doing what kids across the country do with sticks, baseball bats, etc. They play around.

I'm not in favor of discouraging people from playing with training weapons. You could hurt yourself with just about anything. If these two are swinging them at each other like baseball bats, that's bad. But the average teenager with average sense is not going to do that.

People seem very willing to shake their fingers at these would-be martial artists but less willing to be constructive. Are there books/videos/seminars one might suggest? Can anyone suggest simple drills that would get them started until better training comes along? Why not point them to the chanbara-style play weapons or some similar padded weapon, if safety is an issue?

Who would be receptive to all this negativity and the derisive comments about 15 year olds? Bear in mind that this advice comes, for the most part, from _anonymous Internet posters _who think everyone should recognize their knowledge. The links to accident results are helpful warnings. Now, is there anything else someone can do that is _constructive_?!?


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i got some unsigned negative rep for post #235, calling me a bouncer, asking me to be the adult,and thinking people should not be allowed to decide who stays and who goes on this forum.
so in reply to my unnamed detractor........if you look at the posts subsequent to Mr. Master's, i think everyone tried to give him some good advice and he has continuously given reasons why he cant take such good advice.
so, if he wants to "swing" his sword around dangerously slicing up cardboard boxes and pool noodles, let him. 
its a dangerous game with no winners......if he does not want to heed the advice, the adult thing now is to say bye bye.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

arnisador said:
			
		

> We're now against _wooden _swords? Sheesh! Will people advise him to cut his steak with a cardboard knife so he doesn't lose a finger?
> 
> Obviously, people shouldn't practice with live blades if they aren't well-trained and well-supervised. But this is just too much. If I had been prohibited from picking up a broomstick and swinging it like a staff, I might never have followed up by wanting to learn martial arts.
> 
> Has no one ever seen kids playing cops and rubbers with toy guns? A bokken is a training weapon. Yes, you can hurt someone with it...though it doesn't take much to get a lot of bleeding out of a cut to the scalp. But if they're swinging bokken-shaped sticks at one another then they're doing what kids across the country do with sticks, baseball bats, etc. They play around.
> 
> I'm not in favor of discouraging people from playing with training weapons. You could hurt yourself with just about anything. If these two are swinging them at each other like baseball bats, that's bad. But the average teenager with average sense is not going to do that.
> 
> People seem very willing to shake their fingers at these would-be martial artists but less willing to be constructive. Are there books/videos/seminars one might suggest? Can anyone suggest simple drills that would get them started until better training comes along? Why not point them to the chanbara-style play weapons or some similar padded weapon, if safety is an issue?
> 
> Who would be receptive to all this negativity and the derisive comments about 15 year olds? Bear in mind that this advice comes, for the most part, from _anonymous Internet posters _who think everyone should recognize their knowledge. The links to accident results are helpful warnings. Now, is there anything else someone can do that is _constructive_?!?


 
if he wants to play samurai with a plastic sword.....thats great.
kids do not play cops and robbers with loaded guns and charged tazers.
would you want your kid to learn swordplay from a video or book?
my answer to that would be, Hell No.
i wouldnt want my kid to learn how to shoot a gun or learn gun safety from a book either.
if i was his parent, i would lock that sword up, buy him a few books and a video......find him REAL instruction, and then when he is ready, let him have it.

this isnt a jack knife, or a BB gun.


----------



## Swordlady

The reason why I posted that bit about bokken is because early on in this thread, Clint said that he and Wolf were "training buddies".  Now...it doesn't take much to put two-and-two together, since Wolf said that he has been training with bokken.  Two 14-year-olds swinging wooden swords at each other is NOT a safe practice.  Using padded swords - like this - would be a LOT safer; it would cut down the chances of breaking bones or cracking a skull.

Now...if Wolf wants to use his bokken for solo practice, hey, go for it.  My concern is solely for the whole "sparring with bokken" issue.  We don't even spar with bokken in the dojo, because of the injury risk (we did a few times, but the senior students soon put a stop to it).


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Swordlady said:
			
		

> The reason why I posted that bit about bokken is because early on in this thread, Clint said that he and Wolf were "training buddies". Now...it doesn't take much to put two-and-two together, since Wolf said that he has been training with bokken. Two 14-year-olds swinging wooden swords at each other is NOT a safe practice. Using padded swords - like this - would be a LOT safer; it would cut down the chances of breaking bones or cracking a skull.
> 
> Now...if Wolf wants to use his bokken for solo practice, hey, go for it. My concern is solely for the whole "sparring with bokken" issue. We don't even spar with bokken in the dojo, because of the injury risk (we did a few times, but the senior students soon put a stop to it).


 
i completely agree.......you need a controlled arena for practicing with bokken.
it takes a fair amount of practice to develop good control, even with a bokken. 
working with the bokken was pretty much a part of every class i went to for my first 3 years of training........and even when you start to develop a bit of skill, you still end up getting cracked on the head, arm, or fingers; even with a modicum of control, you can slow things down to avoid really serious injury.........but that takes instruction.


----------



## shesulsa

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> I have already said that i train with my bokken, not with my sword, why is it so hard for yall to get that? I only oil and cut stuff with my sword, typicaly boxes, mayby pool noodles every now and then. Gees yall sound like a brokken record, quit acting like i am training with my live blade, i'm not. thats the last time i'm saying that.
> 
> I do take saftey measurs to the best that i can, tomorrow i will  be going to the Library to see if they have any books on iaido. (But i will still be training with my bokken. )
> And the "master" in my name indicates master of wolves, not sword master, i already said that also.


Oh goodness. I quite honestly felt the thread had moved far beyond you, per se, and more towards the incredibly bad idea of self-"teaching" as a whole.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I've got 8 books on sword arts on my book shelf. Good books, like "Flashing Steel: Mastering Eishin-Ryu Swordsmanship" by Masayuki Shimabukuro, Leonard J. Pellman and "Iai: The Art of Drawing the Sword" by Darrell Craig. I also have something in the area of 100+ clips, videos and tutorials on vhs/dvd/mpg covering sword arts. Most, require some prior understanding of things, and a few are well "advanced" in nature. Regardless, outside of being a nice reference, all of these are poor substitutes for a quality instructor. 

As to bokken for sparring, not good. The ones I've used have a reputation for shattering when you least expect it. Are you wearing eye protection? How about padded gloves? Padded body armour? A cup? Mouth guards? 

Safest way to spar is to use a padded stick, actionflex or SmakStiks both make excellent products for that, and they are affordable. I've also done the PVC pipe, pipe insulation and duct tape route. Hurts more, but, tends to be safer than wood, and definately safer than steel, live or not.

I train with my wooden bokken solo. I train partner drills with SmakStiks and ActionFlex. My $300 Practical Plus is currently been sitting in it's protective cover since I got it, though I have looked at it a few times. Not ready to wage war against the evil cardboard empire yet.  (I will however, admit to doing sinawallis with a spatha...it was wild). I also wear eye, hand, forearm and head protection. Just saying "We'll pull our shots" isn't enough. Accidents happen. Thats why they call them accidents.


----------



## arnisador

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> my unnamed detractor


 
I ran out of room to sign it. It was in response to this less-than-helpful comment:



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i really dont think a 15 year old kid with the word "master" in his name, espousing self training for a serious study deserves a place in this forum.


 
I agree that learning any sort of martial arts from a book is usually not very effective. On the other hand, a chanbara sword and a DVD could keep him _safe_ and _motivated_ until a better option comes around. That seems like better advice than citing his age and telling him he doesn't 'deserve' a place here. It would certainly be more helpful...if one is _honestly_ concerned for his safety. Being here and interacting with those more knowledgeable would surely provide the best result as compared to being sent away for being youthful and enthusiastic.


----------



## shesulsa

Even monkeys fall from trees.


----------



## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Safest way to spar is to use a padded stick, actionflex or SmakStiks both make excellent products for that, and they are affordable. I've also done the PVC pipe, pipe insulation and duct tape route. Hurts more, but, tends to be safer than wood, and definately safer than steel, live or not.


 
This is some useful advice. Padded sticks are better now than they used to be; you can get ones that have sufficient stiffness for the techniques you want to do but that still are unlikely to cause injury. (Eye goggles are always a good idea.) This allows experimentation, safely.

Training with wooden weapons is fine--as an arnisador, I do it constantly--but there's a difference betwen my light rattan sticks or even my (regular wood) daggers and a heavy, long, and unevenly weighted weapon like a bokken. A shinai is a better bet for that kind of sparring. The point about a bokken possibly shattering is an underappreciated point.

It might be helpful to provide some links for some of these products? I'm suggesting a video like this one (there are others there) and a corresponding weapon (though that one may be too short). It won't turn anyone into a master swordsman, but for teenagers playing with swords while they wait for the mobility and financial resources to pursue better training I think it's a step forward. They can go as hard as they like and will be able to learn what doesn't work. (Learning what _does_ work is often the harder part.) I don't endorse learning-by-video for self-defense, but this is a different situation.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

arnisador said:
			
		

> I ran out of room to sign it. It was in response to this less-than-helpful comment:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that learning any sort of martial arts from a book is usually not very effective. On the other hand, a chanbara sword and a DVD could keep him _safe_ and _motivated_ until a better option comes around. That seems like better advice than citing his age and telling him he doesn't 'deserve' a place here. It would certainly be more helpful...if one is _honestly_ concerned for his safety. Being here and interacting with those more knowledgeable would surely provide the best result as compared to being sent away for being youthful and enthusiastic.


 
i am concerned with his safety.......i am more concerned that he is getting an audience from "trained experts" that are still arguing with him.
id like to contact his parents and ask them what the hell they think they are doing giving a kid a surgical sharp sword in the first place.
i dont want to motivate him to self learn.....want to self learn? try tai chi,calculus or algebra.......not kenjutsu.


----------



## Ronin Wolf-master

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i am concerned with his safety.



you have a bad way of showing it.



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> id like to contact his parents and ask them what the hell they think they are doing giving a kid a surgical sharp sword in the first place.



Because they know me and trust me, and who the hell are you to say that thats wrong? (No disrespect meant, just using what he is saying.)

Thanks for the links, yes we do train with the bokkens against each other, but when we hit each other we stop the bokken so its not a full contact hit, just a light hit, enough to know you were hit, and the head is off limits. I have a Guijo bokken from http://whiteheronblades.com/bokken.html
Never heard of them shattering. I will be going to the library tomorrow to see about some sword books, hopefully some iaijutsu books. (and some alchemy books.) When i get some more $$ i will see about getting some shinai, but for now i have to use the bokken.


Ronin Wolf-master


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> when we hit each other we stop the bokken so its not a full contact hit, just a light hit, enough to know you were hit, and the head is off limits.



When we do stick drills with rattan, then head is also off limits. So are the hands. I've lost track of the number of hand shots I've taken, and ended up with a mild concussion once from a full force head shot that would have crushed my left eye socket if I hadn't been wearing safety glasses.  These were suffered while training with experienced players (though the concussion was self inflicted due to a ricochet).  I've also had the pleasure of listening to some morons (ok, dumbasses) explain that they don't need face masks playing paintball since they won't "aim at the face". Those "smarties" tend to suffer a lot of eye injuries for some reason. As SL indicated above, even when going light, people do get hurt.

My point is, even when practicing under controled circumstances, with experienced people, you can get hurt. Wood splinters, and a splinter in the eye can **** you up for life. Busted fingers will end a career fast, and make later years quite uncomfortable, painful even. If you insist on playing on your own, do yourself a favor and wear properly rated eye protection, and get some padding. Hockey gloves at least will save your fingers some major problems. Remember, a busted hand means, you won't be able to hold that sword down the road.

Safe training, is smart training.


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## Ronin Wolf-master

yeah that is the only problem that ever happens is getting hit in the knucke, man it hurts. :tantrum:  (lol) i will try to get some gloves, but i dont really thing i would need the glasess, cuase we dont even aim for the head, but its not a bad idea. ( I know what you mean about those morons that play paintball, then they wonder why they are blind... :whip: )  
But i will have to wait till my Birthday before i can get any of this, cause i only have $10.00, wich will probly go for either more sword oil, or maybe some Yu-Gi-Oh! cards, i have not bought any in decades. (months)
but i will definatly see what i can do about the gloves, i did wear some gloves one time, it still hurt but not as bad, would probly help if my bokken had a plastick tsuba.


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## Bob Hubbard

If you have one near you, try a used sports gear shop, goodwill, amvets, etc. Good for banging, even when it aint pretty.


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## shesulsa

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> you have a bad way of showing it.


Are you sure you don't just have a bad way of listening?

Earnestly, now.  Maybe your parents trust you and all, but ya know? Unless they are trained in sword arts or other weapons, could they really be that qualified to judge just how dangerous doing what you're doing really is? because I'd have to say the majority of the respondents here might not think so.

Understand that it is our duty as trained martial artists to point out safety issues to others in precisely this situation.  Your lack of willingness to accept the advice lends to a poor training attitude.


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## Ronin Wolf-master

I will probly order off the internet.... unless we go to P'cola.

I am excepting advice, but not someone gripping at me, and sertinly not someone talking about my parents like he did.  
They trust and know me, the poeple here dont really know me, and apprently dont trust me, and as long as i am with my parrents, they are the judges.


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## arnisador

Steal some goggles from the chemistry lab. They're important! Gloves are a good idea too. Boxing or hockey gloves are what many arnis players use.

Hard wood _can _break, and when it does, splinters can fly. Definitely look into the shinai. As Mr. Hubbard mentions, even experts get hurt. I know a certain datu with a nasty scar along his inner upper arm...


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## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> Steal some goggles from the chemistry lab. They're important!


No, don't steal anything. Kindly explain the situation to the lab professor and ask if he has a spare pair he could donate to your cause _because safety is so important to you._


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## Makalakumu

Ronin

There has been some good advice about working out safely given in this thread.  Check out the suggested tapes and equipment and see if there is a store where it can be purchased.  My advice to you is to talk to your parents about this stuff and see if they can get it off the internet for you.  I suggest this for two reasons...

1.  Your parents will KNOW that you are taking this seriously and attempting to be as safe as possible.  This is important because it may go a long way in convincing them to help you possibly find someone to teach you.  Even if you were to take an art like aikido which is based on some swordwork, you'd get more from practicing with your friends.

2.  It is much easier to get some of this stuff off the internet.  Most martial arts supply stores don't carry much stuff or they only sell it to the students who go to the dojos that are usually attached to it.  Most people get their martial arts equipment from the internet nowdays, sorry to say.

Good luck

upnorthkyosa


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## splice42

Ronin Wolf-master said:
			
		

> i dont really thing i would need the glasess, cuase we dont even aim for the head, but its not a bad idea. ( I know what you mean about those morons that play paintball, then they wonder why they are blind... :whip: )


So those people who play paintball and don't wear goggles or a mask because they don't aim for the head are morons, yet you don't really think you need safety glasses when fighting with wooden sticks because... you don't aim for the head?

Aren't you precious. You certainly don't seem to be considering the advice of others very seriously.

[SIZE=-1]Perhaps your purpose in life may just be to serve as an example for others[/SIZE]. In that way you may yet do some good.


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## KenpoTess

Assist. Admin Note

We here at MT don't like to close down threads as some good information can be gleaned from them.  But with the advent of the personal sniping going on, this thread is now Locked.

Take it offline and keep the personal issues elsewhere.

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT Assist. Admin


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