# [I]"Food Fight"[/I] On WMAC forum



## Dan Anderson (Jul 9, 2002)

Hi Folks,
If you go to the WMAC forum, you'll see a huge food fight in progress concerning the article I wrote on Modern Arnis appearing in thie month's issue of Inside Kung Fu.  It's getting pretty heated and makes for good reading.

 :soapbox: :flame: :biggun: :bazook: :shock: 

Dan Anderson
author of reknown (buy the ebooks) and all-around level headed guy, for someone who is balding


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## dearnis.com (Jul 9, 2002)

foodfight?  yes, that is one word for it.....
:rofl: 
There are probably others, but we'll leave it there.
You sure managed to stir the pot Dan!
:jediduel: 

(and for what its worth I liked the article, and thought the editing was fairly obvious; folks remember that whenever someone writes for the martial arts mags the material is edited for space and content...)
Chad


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 9, 2002)

For once I didn't start it. I wish them luck with that thread.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 10, 2002)

:argue: :goop: 

Well, I am here to throw food at Dan.

I thought the article was good. Then I thought other articles were good also.

Oh well, good food fighting everyone  

Rich


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## Dieter (Jul 10, 2002)

Hi,

is there anybody who can e-mail me a scan of Dan´s article?
I have read a lot about it but Inside Kung Fu is very hard to get here in Germany.

My adress would be:

datu@modern-arnis.de

and  in case that gives problems

dk@abanico.de

Thanks in advance 

Dieter Knüttel
DATU of Modern Arnis


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## arnisador (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> 
> *is there anybody who can e-mail me a scan of Dan´s article?
> *



Is there a copyright issue?


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## Guro Harold (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Is there a copyright issue? *



Good point, unless Dan sends it himself.

Man, has the discussion over there has been intense!!!!


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## Dieter (Jul 10, 2002)

> "Is there a copyright issue?" "Good point, unless Dan sends it himself."



Right.

Daaaan, can someone send the article?

Or, can somebody send me a copy of the Inside Kung Fu? I will be glad to pay the price plus shipment. This way there will be no copyright problem.

Any answer will be appreciated.


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Dieter (Jul 10, 2002)

OK, all machines stop,

Dan just mailed to me, that he scanned the article and will send it to me.

Thanks

Dieter Knüttel


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## arnisador (Jul 10, 2002)

I'm glad that Mr. Knuttel is now in on the situation!

The thread in question is:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000171.html

I especially direct everyone's attention to the July 07, 2002 06:27 PM post by Dr. Barber (I don't think I can link directly to it); see also his July 08, 2002 11:53 PM post. Dr. Barber, would you consider putting those messages, edited for the change of context if you think it desireable, up here? They contain many truths about the Professor's unfortunate aversion to controversy and dealing with difficult situations, and the very many incarnations of the "best and brightest" we have seen in Modern Arnis.

There is considerable discussion of the belief that the Professor wished for his grandson to succeed him as the Grandmaster (eventually).

The thread contains an argument with several proponents that--to oversimplify--states that the true students of the Professor were the ones who were rarely around him, and that (many of) those who were seen with him often were weak students. To be honest, I find the argument self-serving. Going off in one's own direction is fine and is in fact its own sort of tribute but let's call it what it is. There are also lots of claims from lots of people in that thread that they have secret information that will soon be revealed. I doubt that it will be convincing to many people, whatever it is in each case. The issues of who is/was and is not/was not active/a renegade are common in the thread.

Finally, I liked this quote from Mr. Anderson, showing once again his keen grasp of the Modern Arnis situation and willingness to help improve it:


> Tim Hartman is awfully shy and very reserved in his communication. I am working with him on that.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> The thread contains an argument with several proponents that--to oversimplify--states that the true students of the Professor were the ones who were rarely around him, and that (many of) those who were seen with him often were weak students. To be honest, I find the argument self-serving. Going off in one's own direction is fine and is in fact its own sort of tribute but let's call it what it is.



Arnisador,
That is a mis-duplication.  Where it came from (IMHO) is the original IMAF website had a declaration of Masters Of Tapi-Tapi title including that this MOTT ttile superceded numerical rank and other titles as well.  The implication was that many of our juniors were now our seniors.  Couple this with the fact that Remy Presas never regained sufficient health for us to consider questioning him directly on the matter, many of us considered that the IMAF thought of themselves to be senior or superior to the rest of us.

*I admit that this might be a mis-conception, at the very least, on my part.*

There are many student of Modern Arnis who _have not_ gone beyond what Prof. Presas taught them.  These are who are referred to as the _followers_.  At this point the _renegades, independants, et al,_ are basically saying, "Don't even think of figuring us out of the equation."  Many of us are very experienced martial artists.  As the humerous saying goes, "We are much smarter than we look."  That is the thrust of that line of communication.

I am glad you have noticed Tim Hartman's shyness and unwillingness to speak his mind or stand up for himself.  Together, as partners, we can work on this lad's reticence and help to create a strong, self sufficient, self respecting young man out of him. 

Articulately yours,
Dan


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 10, 2002)

Arnisador & Dan A.,

         BITE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Hartman

:bird: :biggun: :soapbox:


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## Terry (Jul 11, 2002)

So how does one find the "food fight" on WMAC forum?

Thanks,  Terry


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 11, 2002)

Goto this thread:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000171.html


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> 
> *Arnisador & Dan A.,
> 
> ...



Anyone reading this thread can obviously see what I mean about Tim's innate shyness and apparant inability to express what he really feels.  What he really means is that ever since we first met in around 1987, I have been an inspiration, a guiding light for him not only in the martial arts but in life as well.

Inspirationally yours,
Dan


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## dearnis.com (Jul 11, 2002)

Um, Dan.....
You are going to take credit for being a guiding light for Tim??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

well, ok, that's on you I guess....


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## Terry (Jul 11, 2002)

Thanks, Kaith!

I just finished witnessing the "Food Fight" and I'm exhausted.  I don't care for all the attempts of one-upsmanships.  All the "who was where, when" bull crap, but at least things are certainly being thrown out on the table.

I feel that some folks are starting to get the picture that much of this turmoil was created by Professor himself.  He certainly was not successful in his attempts to try to make EVERYONE happy.

Thank you Kelly for, "Remy just loved his art, human nature forced much of the turmoil to rise above the beauty of his gift..."  Excellently put!

We all love the gypsy who comes into town, teaches us about the world, shows us what we could be capable of accomplishing, and then moves on to some other place to repeat the show.

I loved Professor for his childlike response to his own needs.  I love you all for trying to keep his dream alive.  That has always been my only desire, and is still my only intention.

Dr. Schea and I go a long way back.  Yes, when camps were two weeks long, and I have never met a more selfless, egoless person in my life.  When anyone questions his motives regarding Professor and the continuence of his dream, I just chuckle.

Good night, and keep up the good work!

Terry


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Terry _
> 
> *Thanks, Kaith!
> 
> ...



Terry,

I would have to agree that it was a task to keep it all straight and follow clearly.

Thanks for the post

Rich


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> 
> *Um, Dan.....
> You are going to take credit for being a guiding light for Tim??
> ...



Chad,
I never said he measured up.  In fact, he is one of my less successful projects but in my heart, hope springs eternal.

Op(Tim)istically yous,
Dan


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## arnisador (Jul 12, 2002)

You may count on my support Mr. Anderson, but he's definitely a long-term project.


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## Mao (Jul 13, 2002)

I must apologize to those who were there and to those who chose to go there to see the mess that the food fight left. I probably let my passion rise too much.  I do realize that most of us are trying to carry on, propagate, or continue the art that Remy left us in the best way we know how. I also realize that martial arts in general has more than it's share of egoe's that are at times fragile at best. I try not to be fragile. There is a song titled "The Warrior is a Child".  At the end of the day, most of us still need gentleness and caring. That sums it up. As has been noted, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. What matters is how we treat each other. Heck, I treat Tim o.k., that should speak volumes!     Anyway, I've moved on.

             respectfully,
        Guro Dan McConnell
       Modern Arnis of Ohio
  IMAF, inc. Board of Directors


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 13, 2002)

It seems that you guys are obsessed with me. What's up with that?


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *I must apologize to those who were there and to those who chose to go there to see the mess that the food fight left. I probably let my passion rise too much.
> 
> ...



Dan,
There is no dishonor in passion.  And food fights are fun.  Especially if you shower afterwards.  Looking forward to meeting with you at the 2003 Symposium, if not sooner, and downing a pint or three with you.

Tim,
No obsession.  In fact, there is a song I like to think of and sing to myself in the shower when I think about the "Tim Hartman Rehabilitation Project."

"To dream the impossible dream..."  

All in fun,
Dan


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 14, 2002)

Thanks DA for that wonderful mental image..you in the shower....the bill for my keyboard (which recieved my late night snack) will be in the mail shortly....


shudder  shudder  shudder.
:rofl:


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Thanks DA for that wonderful mental image..you in the shower....the bill for my keyboard (which recieved my late night snack) will be in the mail shortly....
> 
> ...



Kaith,

What got me, was the fact that shower in 'Tim' were in the same sentence.

  

Rich


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## DoctorB (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I'm glad that Mr. Knuttel is now in on the situation!
> 
> ...



Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## arnisador (Jul 16, 2002)

I wouldn't want the heated discussion here but I did think that your posts I cited contained a great deal of factual information that would be worth having here.

Their thread seems calmer now?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 16, 2002)

Anyone can say what they want, and every group has someone who knows a PC well enough to print up whatever they wish.

Get them on the floor, and lets see em move, and teach.

It was said months ago that theres a lot of pieces in this puzzle, and that it would be nice if they could put the differences, egos and agendas aside and just show off Remys art.

I said it along time ago that it would be nice to see all the Datus and Motts and senior students of GM Presas in one venue, together, on the floor.

You can look at this as a 'put up or shut up', you can look at it as a 'blending' or a 'sharing' or an exploration of the evolution of the art.

Or look at it this way.... its a chance for you to show your stuff and shine.  For a brief moment a spotlight is going to shine in this direction.  Isn't that worth it, especially to honor the one who gave you all so much?

:asian:


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## DoctorB (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I wouldn't want the heated discussion here but I did think that your posts I cited contained a great deal of factual information that would be worth having here.
> 
> Their thread seems calmer now? *



OK, here are the two posts with just some minor editing for spelling errors.



> Originally posted by BRAM: (Bram Frank)
> *Datu Kelly, "Super Dan"...you both know how I feel about you guys...
> And you both know I have no illusions about or aspirations about who's on first..
> not my place...
> ...


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## arnisador (Jul 16, 2002)

There's more discussion of some of these issues at the Uechi-Ryu website.


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## family man (Jul 18, 2002)

I am new to the discussion but have read some and am a little confused.  Who are all the players since I don't have a program?  I have attended Grandmaster's seminars before but I don't know many names.  What is the point of all the argument; I want to learn to be a better arnisador.  Who should I go to in order to learn, since there is no longer a Remy Presas who is teaching the art he founded?  I don't like to waste time or energy so can someone help me sort out the names, titles, and so on so I can get on with my training.  If I try to attend a seminar from each so I could sample each instructor I would go broke and feel like I was spinning my wheels alot.  Tell me what you think and how you can help me.

Thanks

RODNCO


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 18, 2002)

Please see this thread for the contact information of those who we've found.

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?&threadid=1010

:asian:


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## family man (Jul 19, 2002)

Well now that I 've seen the extensive list I feel slightly more confused.  I don't seem to have a good hold on all the titles, such as; "renegades", "black belt society", "IMAF commissioners", "datu", "MOTTs", "co-GM", and so on.  I have been to a couple of arnis seminars and now that Grandmaster Presas has died I want to continue learning from someone who is teaching his art.  What do the above titles mean and how do they relate to someones skill and ability to teach?  Who holds the above titles so that if I may seek them out I will know what to expect from the seminar and if I am getting the most bang for my buck.  This art is really getting me hooked but I want to go in the right direction so as not to waste time and energy.

RODNCO


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 19, 2002)

Politics aside, I've heard good things about the following US organizations
Tim Hartman - (I admit bias here as I'm a student of Tims) - New York - Also does extensive knife work
Kelly Worden -  Professional Knife maker.  - Washington - extensive knife work.
Presas Family - Have been giving many well recieved seminars across the US.
IMAF Inc (Randy Scheas group) - Are also refered to as teh Masters of Tapi Tapi - Extensive stick knowledge.


In Germany, look up Datu Deiter.  I believe his is the largest Arnis group in Europe.

Each of the above also has a network of schools and contacts in various areas who can help you find somewhere to train with.

If you are looking for a -personal- recomendation, give Tim Hartman a try.  He's often doing seminars all over the world, so you should be able to locate him easily.

:asian:


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## Icepick (Jul 23, 2002)

UNBELIEVABLE!  

I disappear for a few weeks, and no one can get along.  I will be setting up the first "Modern Arnis Sensitivity" seminar.  Details to follow...


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by family man _
> 
> *Well now that I 've seen the extensive list I feel slightly more confused.  I don't seem to have a good hold on all the titles, such as; "renegades", "black belt society", "IMAF commissioners", "datu", "MOTTs", "co-GM", and so on.  I have been to a couple of arnis seminars and now that Grandmaster Presas has died I want to continue learning from someone who is teaching his art.  What do the above titles mean and how do they relate to someones skill and ability to teach?  Who holds the above titles so that if I may seek them out I will know what to expect from the seminar and if I am getting the most bang for my buck.  This art is really getting me hooked but I want to go in the right direction so as not to waste time and energy.
> 
> RODNCO *



Rodnco,
MOTT = Master of Tapi-Tapi - this is a title given from Prof. Presas to 7 people (Jeff Delaney, Randi Schea, Gaby Roloff, Jim Ladis, Chuck Gauss, Ken Smith and Brian Zawilinski) roughly one year prior to his death.  See the IMAF, Inc. web site for the description of the title.  This title is independant of numerical rank and per the IMAF website, supercedes numerical rank.  This is a point of dispute amongst many Modern Arnis old timers.

Datu = chieftain, leader.  This is a title passed on from Prof. Presas to 6 people that I know of (Shishir Incalla, kelly Worden, Rick Jornales, Tim Hartman, Dietter Knuettel and David Hoffman) over the years.  This title is also independant of numerical rank.  I have seen no written data that this title supercedes numierical rank.

Renegade = a description by Bram Frank of a Modern Arnis player who has no organizational affiliation and has followed Prof. Presas' path in using his principles and so on to develop their own knowledge of the art.

Co-GM = Co Grandmaster.  This might be a reshifting of the term "Co-successor" which was given to Jeff Delaney and Randi Schea.  Only Jeff Delaney is using the term Grandmaster (of Modern Arnis) at the present time.  This is another point of dispute amongst Modern Arnis practioners.

Senior Master/Junior Master - Prof. Presas gave out this title to several of his students.  The Junior master title was given to Dieter Knuettel and (I might be mistaken onthis one and if so it is my error) Michael Bates.  The Senior Master title was given to Rodillo Dagaoc, Roland Dantes, Vincente Sanchez of the Philippines and to myself in the US.

The other terms such as "IMAF commissioners" and "black belt society" I do not know.  As to the title relating to the ability to teach, find a teacher you can really relate to is my best advice.  Then, go to the Modern Arnis 2003 Symposium in Buffalo, NY to see the best fo the best actually teach.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by family man _
> 
> *Well now that I 've seen the extensive list I feel slightly more confused.  I don't seem to have a good hold on all the titles, such as; "renegades", "black belt society", "IMAF commissioners", "datu", "MOTTs", "co-GM", and so on.  I have been to a couple of arnis seminars and now that Grandmaster Presas has died I want to continue learning from someone who is teaching his art.  What do the above titles mean and how do they relate to someones skill and ability to teach?  Who holds the above titles so that if I may seek them out I will know what to expect from the seminar and if I am getting the most bang for my buck.  This art is really getting me hooked but I want to go in the right direction so as not to waste time and energy.
> 
> RODNCO *



Rodnco,
MOTT = Master of Tapi-Tapi - this is a title given from Prof. Presas to 7 people (Jeff Delaney, Randi Schea, Gaby Roloff, Jim Ladis, Chuck Gauss, Ken Smith and Brian Zawilinski) roughly one year prior to his death.  See the IMAF, Inc. web site for the description of the title.  This title is independant of numerical rank and per the IMAF website, supercedes numerical rank.  This is a point of dispute amongst many Modern Arnis old timers.

Datu = chieftain, leader.  This is a title passed on from Prof. Presas to 6 people that I know of (Shishir Incalla, kelly Worden, Rick Jornales, Tim Hartman, Dietter Knuettel and David Hoffman) over the years.  This title is also independant of numerical rank.  I have seen no written data that this title supercedes numierical rank.

Renegade = a description by Bram Frank of a Modern Arnis player who has no organizational affiliation and has followed Prof. Presas' path in using his principles and so on to develop their own knowledge of the art.

Co-GM = Co Grandmaster.  This might be a reshifting of the term "Co-successor" which was given to Jeff Delaney and Randi Schea.  Only Jeff Delaney is using the term Grandmaster (of Modern Arnis) at the present time.  This is another point of dispute amongst Modern Arnis practioners.

Senior Master/Junior Master - Prof. Presas gave out this title to several of his students.  The Junior master title was given to Dieter Knuettel and (I might be mistaken onthis one and if so it is my error) Michael Bates.  The Senior Master title was given to Rodillo Dagaoc, Roland Dantes, Vincente Sanchez of the Philippines and to myself in the US.

The other terms such as "IMAF commissioners" and "black belt society" I do not know.  As to the title relating to the ability to teach, find a teacher you can really relate to is my best advice.  Then, go to the Modern Arnis 2003 Symposium in Buffalo, NY to see the best fo the best actually teach.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis


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## DoctorB (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Hello Dan,

Nice explaination of the above terms.  Since I posted the orginal comments let me add the following clarifers...

1. all of the above mentioned titles have been used at some point in time by the late Professor Presas, as acknowledgements and rewards for people within the IMAF under him.   More importantly and in the context of the discussions that led to that posting of titles, was the fact that I wanted to make the point that there are many people who have studied with Professor who have had titles granted to them; therefore the MOTTs are not particularly unique within the long term scheme of things.

2. The Black Belt Society consists of Guro Lee Lowry, Guro Rick Mitchell, Guro Richard Roy and Punong Guro Tom Bolden.  These people were designated by Professor Presas as the founding memebrs at a summer camp hosted by Richard Roy in 1989.  Thereafter, no other people were selected for inclusion by Professor.  None of the then existing datus were included then or later.   None of the MOTTs were included.  Therefore my point was and still is that professor used titles and issued titles based on what he thought was in his best interest at each particular time and place in his career.  

3. I believe that the Senior Master title was also awarded to both Punong Guro Tom Bolden and Guro Douglas Pierre, in addition to the people named above.

Thus, I am strongly suggesting that we need to come together at the proposed 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium so that we can see and determine for our individual selves, who has the advanced and creative skills and knowledge within the art.  This is a determination that each indiviual must make and it will not be dependent upon any document or pronouncement, real or alleged.  The proof will be given out on the training floor and everyone in attendence will have an opportunity to train with the presenters.  The rank will be determined by the actual skill level of the presenters.

My suggestion to Rodnco, is to give us an indication about where you live and let's see if there is a Modern Arnis instructor(s) near you whom you could interview and have a trial lesson or two with in order to help you decide if this is the correct art for you.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## The Mist (Jul 27, 2002)

With all due humility and respect, what makes you belive that the title of Senior Master was given to Doug?  
     I think he is a fine Martial Artist.  I just never had any indication of that when I met him at Mich. Camp a few years back.  
     Curious only... not throwing any food!


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## DoctorB (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by The Mist _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I saw the certificate, signed by Remy.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## The Mist (Jul 27, 2002)

OK, THANKS.


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