# The Wisdom of Evil, Have We Learned Nothing?



## Bob Hubbard (May 18, 2008)

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether its a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
-Hermann Goering. Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII.


"During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information."
-Joseph Paul Goebbels


"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilised nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
-Adolf Hitler


"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."
-Adolf Hitler 


"It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole."
-Adolf Hitler 


"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
-Adolf Hitler


"The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it."
-Dr. Joseph Mengele


"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. 
-- Joseph Goebbels


If the day should ever come when we [the Nazis] must go, if some day we are compelled to leave the scene of history, we will slam the door so hard that the universe will shake and mankind will stand back in stupefaction.
-- Joseph Goebbels


"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State. 
-- Joseph Goebbels


"Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play. 
-- Joseph Goebbels




"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."  Joseph Stalin


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## Big Don (May 18, 2008)

> Now you will see that evil will triumph, because good is dumb.


-Dark Helmet


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## MA-Caver (May 18, 2008)

No doubt about it that those guys (quoted)... (exception is Dark Helmet)... were geniuses and knew how to take over the hearts and minds of the people. 

They just were  ****ed in the head that's all.


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## Sukerkin (May 19, 2008)

It is also why those of us over here in Europe have to bite our tongues so hard sometimes when talking about the current world political situation with our American friends.  

We see far too many similarities with that time but trying to point them out earns nothing positive nor changes anyones mind.  

It's a frightening thing to behold the same principles being re-enacted in the body of nations that once fought to root out a flowering of such a philosophy.


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## Imua Kuntao (May 19, 2008)

Hitler rose to power during a time much like ours. I remember the speech of his that was turned into a wall-poster. We want change, but at what price? We have given up many things, gun registration is not a totally good thing.


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 19, 2008)

there are frightening comparisons to be made.

"Amerika fur dem Amerikaners" comes to mind.


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## Empty Hands (May 19, 2008)

Humanity learning from its mistakes?  What kind of crazy talk is that!


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## CoryKS (May 19, 2008)

Basic truths made to appear sinister by use of a tagline.  For a bunch of homocidal whackjobs the national socialists had a decent grasp of human behavior.   Doesn't mean that every parallel one can draw portends doom, despair, and agony on we.  "ZOMG!!! You use toilet paper?!  You know who else used toilet paper...?"


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## Ahriman (May 19, 2008)

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilised nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
-Adolf Hitler

LMAO. Hungary has very strict gun control. This way, only the army, the police........ and the criminals are armed well. If one doesn't care about laws, an AK-47 with 2 magazines and 200 rounds is about 200 dollars here, and for about 500 dollars one could buy personal missile launchers (I don't know the proper English name) with surface-to-air missiles at about 50 dollars each. Of course they aren't using them here too usually, for that'd possibly ruin market by bringing too much attention.
.
..
...
But those very few civilians who legally have guns and are willing to follow the laws can be tracked easily due to registrations. I'm so grateful for that, who would want not controlling law-abiding civilians?


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2008)

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. 
---Mohandas Gandhi 

Fear has its use but cowardice has none. 
---Mohandas Gandhi 

I do all the evil I can before I learn to shun it? Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up. 
---Mohandas Gandhi 

Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law. 
---Buddha 

An oppressive government is more to be feared than a tiger. 
---Confucius


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## Andy Moynihan (May 19, 2008)

"Better pissed off than pissed on"
--Andy Moynihan


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## Xue Sheng (May 19, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> "Better pissed off than pissed on"
> --Andy Moynihan


 
Better a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy....oops sorry, wrong post


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## Big Don (May 19, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Humanity learning from its mistakes?  What kind of crazy talk is that!


Yeah, just because both Hitler and BOTH democratic candidates want(ed) to force gun registration on the public, that probably doesn't mean anything...


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## Kacey (May 19, 2008)

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
- George Santayana

Too often, people believe that the past is dead, and has nothing to teach them, and even when they learn about the past, they fail to believe that they could, themselves, make the same mistakes... and then they do, all the while protesting that their response was different.


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## Empty Hands (May 19, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Yeah, just because both Hitler and BOTH democratic candidates want(ed) to force gun registration on the public, that probably doesn't mean anything...



Hitlery! Hitlery! Hitlery! ZOMGWTFLOLBBQ!!!!!1!one


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## Big Don (May 19, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Hitlery! Hitlery! Hitlery! ZOMGWTFLOLBBQ!!!!!1!one


Thanks, you totally proved my point


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## Mr G (May 19, 2008)

*"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)*

*
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." (Ben Franklin)*


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## Ahriman (May 20, 2008)

What some tend to misunderstand is that a country is not a checklist, and a country doesn't reach dictatorship when all the points are checked, and neither does it reach a total state of freedom and democracy if another checklist is complete. So no, America is not rushing to become a dictatorship even if some patterns are present, and no, middle eastern countries aren't rushing to become democracies even if elections take place.
But does the USA have the *chance* to become a dictatorship? Sure, but for example Hungary has much more chance as observable patterns show.
And is dictatorship *in itself* wrong or inhuman? Nope. The famous and often mentioned democracy of ancient Athens was more inhuman to our modern eyes than the dictature of say, Mussolini.


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## Sukerkin (May 20, 2008)

A dictatorship is certainly a very efficient form of government - it's just that pesky roll of the dice to see if it's benevolent or not that causes the problem.  I happen to think that a parliamentary democracy is the 'least worst' form of government we've come up with so far ... but I would think that because I'm English :lol:.

I have to confess that I don't really agree with the assertion that just because a country 'ticks all the boxes' of an authoritarian regime doesn't mean it is one.  Surely if it has all the attributes of one then it *is*?

However, that's by-the-by as what has been said is that the rise of authoritarian attitudes and the imposition of policies in line with that is a worrying trend - especially when the pattern follows so well the machiavellian philosophy which festered in Germany during the inter-war period.  

I personally don't think that either America or Britain have gotten there yet and there is every chance that the paths will change.  It is simply that, like most things, politics has inertia and cycles.  It also has a 'gravitational' need to draw power to itself and if that is not checked then problems can occur.

No regime is immortal tho' and the best we can do as concerned members of of society is try to make sure that the most good and the least harm is done by those that govern us.  Most important of all we have to make sure that the 'ballot box' is not compromised; if the nebulous 'they' get away with that then the road becomes really slippy.


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## Ahriman (May 20, 2008)

Maybe I should've been more clear with the checkbox analogue...  
Of course if every single detail is the same, then it is what it seems. What I tried to say is that it's not a linear sequence, so you can have a democracy with almost but a few boxes checked in the "dictature list", and have a dictatorship with only a few things missing from the "democracy list".
Of course patterns appeared and will appear, just as goverments come and go, but as I can see it, in the core they're only the dynamics so well described by Orwell in '48. In some cases it takes more time, in some less, in some cases they choose a democracy, in some a dictatorship. I've only seen two possible methods of stopping this circle, '48 and Brave new world and I like neither. 
Humanity just won't learn in a short period of time. :frown:


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## Bodhisattva (May 20, 2008)

Why, Bob, you brought a (figurative) tear to my eye.

A man after my own heart.


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## Sukerkin (May 20, 2008)

Ah, I understand and concurr, Mr. Boderics.  Thanks for elaborating and averting my misconception of what you meant.

I raise a glass in agreement, cheers

Mark


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## JBrainard (May 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether its a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. *All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.* It works the same in every country."
> -Hermann Goering. Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII.


 
This is frighteningly true when you compare it to how our government sold the Iraq war to the people. *shudder*


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## Empty Hands (May 20, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Thanks, you totally proved my point



:rofl:


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## Empty Hands (May 20, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> And is dictatorship *in itself* wrong or inhuman? Nope.



I strongly disagree.  Any dictatorship, no matter how "benevolent" (which is mostly a fantasy), removes all accountability from itself and all self-determination from the ruled.  That is both unwise from a practical point of view since true dictatorships are always unpleasant for the ruled, and wrong from an ethical point of view.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 20, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> This is frighteningly true when you compare it to how our government sold the Iraq war to the people. *shudder*


The number of quotes of high ranking Nazi officials and several members of the us Congress and Executive branch that are -very- similar if not almost identical is frightening.
Of course, the Nazi's didn't think they were the bad guys either.


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## MA-Caver (May 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The number of quotes of high ranking Nazi officials and several members of the us Congress and Executive branch that are -very- similar if not almost identical is frightening.
> Of course, the Nazi's didn't think they were the bad guys either.


 Of course not, they thought they were doing their countrymen and the world a favor by eliminating the Jews.


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## Twin Fist (May 20, 2008)

Brainard,
The government didnt tell me i was being attacked, i saw it with my own eyes.


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## Sukerkin (May 20, 2008)

Could you elaborate, *TF*?


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## Twin Fist (May 20, 2008)

munich
beirut
khobar towers
9-11

the war on terror has been underway since 1972, the west just wasnt fighting back till 2001


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## Bob Hubbard (May 20, 2008)

Destroying something, does nothing to protect it.
Becoming that which you have always abhorred, does not save you from it.


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## Fiendlover (May 20, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> No doubt about it that those guys (quoted)... (exception is Dark Helmet)... were geniuses and knew how to take over the hearts and minds of the people.
> 
> They just were ****ed in the head that's all.


True.  Brillant minds that grew corrupted.


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## Sukerkin (May 21, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> munich
> beirut
> khobar towers
> 9-11
> ...


 
I know what the intent of your words was, *TF* so don't take it as facetious when I say that there are certain countries and certain organisations who would disagree about our not fighting back.  I can't speak for America's services but Britain's, Germany's, France's, Israel's et al have been in action for all of that time.

The action that holds the greatest irony, given the current tensions in the world, is when the SAS eliminated the terrorists that had seized the Iranian embassy in London.

______________________________

Personal Observation (as in not _on_-topic tho' inspired by topic but could really do with it's own thread):  
The "War on Terror" is one of those nonsense sound-bites that make my teeth ache.  The concept and the execution (as envisaged so far) is flawed to the extent that it makes you wonder who thought it was a good idea for doing anything but fostering the growth of more terrorism.

I suppose it's the 'packaging' of it for the media is really the thing that highlights the processes problems.  In previous decades, the terrorists were dealt with and then the (sometimes very bad) news was reported.  Now we have news as entertainment and so every story has to be milked and over-sold and constantly re-told.

It makes it hard not to think that the whole shadow-play is just yet another strand to government self-aggrandisement-propoganda i.e. an ineffective policy that is big and showy and screams "Look!  We *are* doing something! ... {small voice}vote for us{/small voice}".

Of course none of this is aimed at those out there in the weeds making the bad guys go away as best they can.  A show of force *is* sometimes a good thing but only if the enemy is of the sort to be intimidated by such a thing.

At present, it would seem that Afghanistan and Iraq will be training grounds and equipment test-beds for quite a while to come .


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## Sukerkin (May 21, 2008)

How rambling was that!? ^ :blush:

Sorry chaps, that was a rush of fingers on the keyboard between bites of a sandwich during lunch.  I did have a point but I think I dropped it .

In essence what I was trying to get at is that "Terrorism" has been with us for a long time, over here in Europe (Spain and Ireland being particular 'higlights').  The counter-terrorist organisations have been doing a pretty good job over that period, considering the handicap of not knowing when or where things are going to get unpleasant.

Keeping it relatively low-key (the SAS were not pleased at the prescence of TV camera's during the Embassy Siege) worked well.  Exaggerating it into a "War On Terror!" as an adjunct to stealing other peoples countries is counter-productive in terms of efficiency.

As an excercise in misdirection for social control at home tho' it is pretty good.  Another handy lesson brought forward through the decades from the playbook of the erstwhile Bad Guys.

Hmmm - still no closer to really contributing to the thread here - I'm going to go and do the some gardening and see if that helps .


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## Bob Hubbard (May 21, 2008)

Lets take 1 statement for a moment and play with it.


"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." &#8212; Joseph Stalin

That's true.  In the last 2 major US elections there have been cries of fraud and other problems, some of which have been verified. Concerns are such that some places are now removing those wonderful electronic vote counting machines and going back to other less efficient but reliable systems.  Catch is, someone is still counting and there are always possible challenges.

We point at some countries elections where only 1 person is running as a sign of corruption, yet how many elections in the US only have 1 person on the ballot?  
In 2004 over 30 people were running for president, yet only about 7 were on my ballot. Why is it so hard for smaller established parties to make it on the national ballots?

Stalin was a SOB, yet his statement is dead on, and especially of interest as we approach yet another guarenteed interesting US election.


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## Archangel M (May 21, 2008)

We threw Americans of Japanese decent into prison camps in WWII. We did some "totalitarian" things during the Civil War as well. The Brits have some "history" here too. These "issues" are nothing new. They just get trotted out when theres some political differences to be battled over. The "other guy" is a Hitler in the making..blah...blah...blah.


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## JBrainard (May 21, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Brainard,
> The government didnt tell me i was being attacked, i saw it with my own eyes.


 
You saw Iraq attack the US? Wow, I must have missed that one 



Twin Fist said:


> munich
> beirut
> khobar towers
> 9-11
> the war on terror has been underway since 1972, the west just wasnt fighting back till 2001



To use your own words, you are talking about the war on *terror*, not the war on *Iraq*.


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## Sukerkin (May 21, 2008)

I don't disagree with you in principle, *Archangel*.  I think we just see the current situation with different 'severity filters' applied.  

Also, please don't think that I've just been talking about America in my posts here, nor that I have been brushing aside unpleasant things that have happened in the past.  

I've talked before about the history the British Empire had when we decided to bring our version of Civilisation to the world.  I haven't reiterated those points here because really, altho' I've been trying to avoid pointing fingers and using accusatory language, the clear parallels with the OP quotes are with how the past few years of the American Presidency have been shaped.


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## Mr G (May 21, 2008)

*History is written by the victors*. Winston Churchill


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## Twin Fist (May 21, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> You saw Iraq attack the US? Wow, I must have missed that one To use your own words, you are talking about the war on *terror*, not the war on *Iraq*.




actually Brainard, NO.

I have seen the  Iraqi's attack the US.

They did it on a nearly daily basis for 10 YEARS

The UN resolution that ended the Gulf war? It included lots of conditions. One of which was that the US was going to enforce the "no fly" zones

Iraq Shot at those us planes nearly every day. Those acts ALONE made the invasion of 2003 legal.

Did you really not know this?
http://www.historyguy.com/no-fly_zone_war.html

not to mention the PROVEN support Saddam gave to AQ and Hammas


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## CoryKS (May 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> actually Brainard, NO.
> 
> I have seen the Iraqi's attack the US.
> 
> ...


 
Not to mention that the American presence on the "holy" Arabian peninsula in support of the no-fly zone was one of al Qaeda's justifications for declaring war against us.  One of those "root causes" that everyone said we should look at.

At least give us credit for being in the ballpark - it's not like that one time when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and we responded by invading... Morocco.


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## elder999 (May 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> the war on terror has been underway since 1972, the west just wasnt fighting back till 2001


 
..not fighting that you'd get to read about in the papers, anyway....


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## elder999 (May 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> actually Brainard, NO.
> 
> I have seen the Iraqi's attack the US.


 
An Iraqi was part of the first World Trade Center bombing, and _probably_ had Saddam Hussein's support.



TwinFist said:


> not to mention the PROVEN support Saddam gave to AQ and Hammas


 
If by "PROVEN support" you mean something other than the money he gave to families of suicide bombers-please *do* mention it.


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## Archangel M (May 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> The UN resolution that ended the Gulf war? It included lots of conditions. One of which was that the US was going to enforce the "no fly" zones
> 
> Iraq Shot at those us planes nearly every day. Those acts ALONE made the invasion of 2003 legal.
> 
> ...


 
That little fact always seems to be ignored.


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## elder999 (May 22, 2008)

During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information."
-Joseph Paul Goebbels


Have  look at  this thread.

"Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.&#8221; 
-- Joseph Goebbels

Have  look at  this thread.[/url

"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.&#8221; 
-- Joseph Goebbels

Have  look at [url=http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=977652#post977652] this thread!

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.&#8221; 
-- Joseph Goebbels
*Have  look at  this thread!*

on the other hand this:

"It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole."
-Adolf Hitler

sounds suspiciously like this:

"Many of you are well enough off that the tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good
-Hillary Clinton


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## Marginal (May 22, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Yeah, just because both Hitler and BOTH democratic candidates want(ed) to force gun registration on the public, that probably doesn't mean anything...


Rove studying Nazi propaganda intently for years... Just coincidence.


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## Big Don (May 22, 2008)

Marginal said:


> Rove studying Nazi propaganda intently for years... Just coincidence.


Any proof of that or is that just another of your little accusations you like to throw out truthful or not?

So what if he did? Hitler, was a brilliantly charismatic public speaker, is public speaking evil now because Hitler was good at it?


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## Empty Hands (May 22, 2008)

Big Don said:


> So what if he did? Hitler, was a brilliantly charismatic public speaker, is public speaking evil now because Hitler was good at it?



It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife...


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## Mr G (May 23, 2008)

I'm sorry,  I can't include Alantis Morrisette in wisdom or evil...  
Perhaps she fits in the "learned nothing" piece of this tread


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## Marginal (May 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Any proof of that or is that just another of your little accusations you like to throw out truthful or not?


All my claims are true. Whether I stick around to play pattycake with the spin doctors and truth distortion magnates is another matter entirely. That aside, Rove's stated it himself. Rove may very well be lying about it, but I don't see what it'd gain him.


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## The Last Legionary (May 23, 2008)

"The Wisdom of Evil, Have We Learned Nothing? "

No. We haven't. We ignore the past and make excuses for the present so that in the future we can act all surprised when we take it in the ***, again.


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## elder999 (May 23, 2008)

Mr G said:


> I'm sorry, I can't include Alantis Morrisette in wisdom or evil...
> Perhaps she fits in the "learned nothing" piece of this tread


 


			
				Empty Hands said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by *Big Don*
> 
> 
> _So what if he did? Hitler, was a brilliantly charismatic public speaker, is public speaking evil now because Hitler was good at it?_
> ...


 
....but..isn't it _ironic_? :lol:


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## elder999 (May 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Any proof of that or is that just another of your little accusations you like to throw out truthful or not?
> 
> So what if he did? Hitler, was a brilliantly charismatic public speaker, is public speaking evil now because Hitler was good at it?


 
uhhhh....


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