# what makes a sifu?



## bs10927 (Dec 9, 2008)

at what point in Wing Chun studies are you considered a Sifu?


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

By being a great teacher.  When you are able to bring a student up close to your level.  (it think, right?)  Anyways, I figure there's alot of politics that go into that one.....
Maybe depends on the federation your in.
But, to me a Sifu is a good teacher, one that shares all his/her knowledge with their students.  
Yet, I'm sure you could pay your dues, and get a grandmaster to make you a sifu when they see fit to grant it to you.  
That is a great question!  'Cause honestly, I've been confused about that one too! lol!


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 9, 2008)

The definition of sifu is teacher.  Technically a sifu can be anyone that teaches anything with great skill.  But to answer your question usually when one reaches black sash he can start teaching and be called a sifu.  Of cource the higher black sash you are the more legit and serious you'll be taken.


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

But WC/WT doesn't have sashes.


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## bs10927 (Dec 9, 2008)

si je, i'm glad i'm not the only one confused.  lol

what's Black sash level? (i'm not being a wiseguy.  Don't have sashes for rankings).  Is that after learning all the forms, weapons included and years of experience?


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 9, 2008)

bs10927 said:


> si je, i'm glad i'm not the only one confused. lol
> 
> what's Black sash level? (i'm not being a wiseguy. Don't have sashes for rankings). Is that after learning all the forms, weapons included and years of experience?


 
Instead of using belts like Japanese styles and Korean styles the Chinese arts (kung fu) use silk or satin belts that are called sashes.  A 1st level black sash is like saying a first degree black belt.  You would say I'm a first level black sash in shaolin kung fu or I'm a 3rd level black sash in .....


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

We have Grades 1-4, (then blue t-shirt for Si-Je or SiHing) and then Levels 1-5 (Black t-shirt for "technician" Level 1-4) then I Red shirt for Sifu.
No sashes.  just T-shirts and black pants.  (white shirt for Grades 1-4)


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 9, 2008)

*Here is some stuff I found that this one School dealing with becoming a Sifu:*


Toughest Martial Art Instructor standards in the
United States​<BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE>*Fight test #1 - *The student assistantbecomes eligible for the first fight test one month after achieving Yellow Belt and cannot leave the Yellow Belt without passing this test. The student assistant must fight 3 people separately--one-minute rounds (the fight tests are at the end of classes). If the student assistant is hit, or strikes the attacker too forcefully, or defends without counter attacking the attacker--he/she fails the test. In fight test #1, the attacker can only use hand attacks. There are too many martial art instructors who could not pass our first fight test. Don't get me wrong, all of them can fight, but what separates the skilled fighter from the unskilled fighter?  At Lee's Chinese Martial Arts Federation, the unskilled fighter is one who has no option but destruction (under attack they are so afraid and mentally out of control that they strike back with destructive power). This means the instructor cannot fight without hurting his attackers or his students. When you have the power to fight and not destroy, then and only then do you have options under a real attack.
* 
**Fight test # 2 - *The student assistantbecomes eligible for the second fight test one month after achieving Green Belt. The student assistant must fight three people separately--one-minute rounds. If the student assistant is hit, or strikes the attacker too forcefully, or defends without a counter attack, the test has been failed. In fight test two, the attacker can use both hand and kick attacks.

*Fight test # 3 - *<FONT face=Arial size=2>The student assistantbecomes eligible for the third fight test one month after achieving Blue Belt. The student assistant must fight two people simultaneously, one two-minute round. The attackers can kick, punch, grapple and even take the student assistant to the ground. If any of the above takes place the student assistant will fail the test. The student assistant must have the skills to control the attackers without harming them. If the student assistant strikes an attacker with force, the test is failed.


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'MS Mincho'">Lee's Chinese Martial Arts Federation


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 9, 2008)

http://www.kungfulifestyle.com/

Check out the *Black Belt Program*
Then Check out the *Instructor Program*


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## profesormental (Dec 9, 2008)

In a nutshell...

When you are skilled and qualified to teach on your own. And thus be able to create a new Wing Chun family.

Some have more specific terms though, like pasing a certain certificate level or such...


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## bs10927 (Dec 9, 2008)

ok. so after learning the whole system.  not just, say for example, knowing the empty hand forms, dummy form and no weapons.....
i was just curious because  i thought i saw somewhere on the internet that you can be considered a Sifu after knowing the empty hand forms.  i can't find the link anymore to reference to....

thanks


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 9, 2008)

Two main ways to become a Sifu.

*First*: Your Wing Chun Kwoon where you learn at can make you a sifu. For instance you get a Certificate I believe Si-Je Said. Or your Sifu tells you now that you can teach others since you acheive mastery level. 

*Second*:Your skill In Wing Chun is extremely good or someone wants to learn what you know. So they asked for you to be their teacher. Than you become a Sifu. 

*Bruce Lee* became a Sifu because of his fighting Ability and people wanted to learn from him. People came to him an asked to be his Students. Many of early Wing Chun Grandmasters started teaching this way. They had some challenge fights that they won making a name for themselves. An then people wanted to learn Wing Chun. 

In reality you could make up your own imaginary Martial Arts System. If what you create was successful in defeating skilled fighters who have practiced for like 20 years in separate arts. Then people would want to learn yoru new art an how it works?


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

This is something of great pondering for me.  Hubbie is Level 5 technician twice around by two different masters.  But, he's not affiliated with either federation anymore.
So, Hubbie has no teacher right now.
Me and hubbie have been teaching on our own for 4 years now.

When he left the other two federations (not due to a fall out with the masters, just no money to pay federation dues or whatever.  No more ability to continue to pay for instruction, seminars or whatever.  We be poor folks! lol!)
He was and is, I guess, a Dai-SiHing.  But after instructing on his own for 4 years what is he now?
After competing in Tai Je Legacy several times, and san shau (7-1 record) what is he now?
What would he need to do to achieve "Sifu" in a honorable reconizable manner to the WC/WT community?

He knows all the forms, open hand, weapons, and wooden dummy.
Things that make you go,.... HUMMMMMM?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 9, 2008)

What makes him a Sifu is people come to him to learn the Wing Chun System. An He can fight with it an teach others to fight with Wing Chun.

As Long as people come to him asking for him to be their instructor he will be a Sifu.


A man with students is a Sifu!

A man with no students is just a Wing Chun Figher!


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm sure that is truely correct, but I think there's going to be alot of politics and crap talking if he just busts out and starts calling himself Sifu.
His students call him that because it's easier for the student instead of explaining all the details.  He shares his rank and lineage, time in art, and time in teaching, but we're not sure how other "big wigs" in art will react.
I don't think he cares much (except for his two teachers) but, what can ya do?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 9, 2008)

Well, There was this one Sifu who supposely didn't complete the entire system. He had the three forms but didn't have the weapons. An not all of the wooden man. But his teacher was Chinese. His Teacher had him open a school an teach.

He was allowed even though he didn't have the entire system. Of Course his teacher later had a falling out with him over personal issues. Like Arrogance. His teacher gave the rest of Wing Chun to one his student's students. Who told that he would make him better than his sifu. Any who. The guy still teaches. An I don't think his top student can beat him yet even though Grand master taught him more than him.

Another thing the guy did was challenge other schools. They would challenge and Win. He defeated top sifus and his lower ranking students beat upper level students from other schools. 


I think your hubbie could get his top students to great fighting stature, Then challenge other Wing Chun schools as well as other Martial art schools to sparring matches. After he and his students start to win these bouts. Then his name will ring out among the people. He will respected for his title. An those who dare say well he aint really a sifu will always have to cowtow and say he great fighter. "I can't beat him." "But I still say he aint no sifu even though I cant beat him fighting."

This is How Yip got students. From fighting.

Do a google on Wing Chun masters becoming sifus by Fighting and challenge matches.




Si-Je said:


> I'm sure that is truely correct, but I think there's going to be alot of politics and crap talking if he just busts out and starts calling himself Sifu.
> His students call him that because it's easier for the student instead of explaining all the details. He shares his rank and lineage, time in art, and time in teaching, but we're not sure how other "big wigs" in art will react.
> I don't think he cares much (except for his two teachers) but, what can ya do?


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

Hubbies going in the cage.
We're going to pay the fee for registration with the TAMMA for a fighter to fight in the entire state of Texas.  Anywhere, any cage fight.

Then, pay for the fee to register his "school" of MMA/wing chun club to hopefully get around the "he has to train with a reconized gym for a month" clause.  (too damn expensive, and these guys always want a 6 month to 2 year contract signed for $175 a month!  Si-Je don't sign contracts or join federations, not doing that.)

I talked to the president of TAMMA and he seemed like a really straight up guy, nice fellow. 

We just need someone to "train" him for a month and sign off on the paperwork for the TAMMA registration so he can fight.  Which is weird kinda, he's already been trained.  So, I'll have to get more info on that after the holidays.

I talked to the pres. about him fighting indepent, and I think he's going to work with that.
Just get a medical, sign off on "training" him for a month.  (probably the personal weight trainer he's using), registration and off he goes!

He wanted to challenge MMA and BJJ guys when we had a school, but absolutely NOTHING came of that.  They sent some people to check out him and the class, test him out a bit, and they never came back or said a word.


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## Si-Je (Dec 9, 2008)

Oh, some WC guys from another school came too.  And after about 3 months training with us confessed that they were sent by their Sifu to check him out.  They decided that they liked Hubbies style better and stayed on.  Now, hubbie has a reputation for "stealing" students. 
HAHAHAHHAHAHA!
Can you steal a gift?

Some came and said we were too agressive, and went back to the Sifu who sent them.
Having the school was like living in a 1970's kung fu movie!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 9, 2008)

Did they say you guys were like a seventies kung fu movie?



Si-Je said:


> Oh, some WC guys from another school came too. And after about 3 months training with us confessed that they were sent by their Sifu to check him out. They decided that they liked Hubbies style better and stayed on. Now, hubbie has a reputation for "stealing" students.
> HAHAHAHHAHAHA!
> Can you steal a gift?
> 
> ...


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## bs10927 (Dec 10, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> This is something of great pondering for me.  Hubbie is Level 5 technician twice around by two different masters.  But, he's not affiliated with either federation anymore.
> So, Hubbie has no teacher right now.
> Me and hubbie have been teaching on our own for 4 years now.
> 
> ...



so i guess from what you're both saying, it's skill,experience and having the knowledge to teach students.. 

Si-Je, sounds like your hubbie has that along with knowing the whole system.

i just found this school online and this is how they break it down....
http://www.practicalwingchun.com.au/the_style/grade_structure/structure.html

it shows different levels of instructors and sifus.


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well, There was this one Sifu who supposely didn't complete the entire system.
> Another thing the guy did was challenge other schools. They would challenge and Win. He defeated top sifus and his lower ranking students beat upper level students from other schools.


 
I think I'm familiar with this story.  I identify with this fellow, I've had to leave federations because of, well, just moral reasons, arrogance, and corruption. 



Yoshiyahu said:


> I think your hubbie could get his top students to great fighting stature, Then challenge other Wing Chun schools as well as other Martial art schools to sparring matches. After he and his students start to win these bouts. Then his name will ring out among the people. He will respected for his title. An those who dare say well he aint really a sifu will always have to cowtow and say he great fighter. "I can't beat him." "But I still say he aint no sifu even though I cant beat him fighting.".


 
Unfortunately, for me, his top student is I.  We've moved alot due to work issues, and teaching at recreation centers is sketchy.  When we had the building open for the school he had 20 students in 6 months.  (then the entire street flooded three times in two months!)  His two top male students both moved to the Phillipines, and got married.  (the first one when I first started learning, the second one whom we both taught for 2-3 years! ack!)
Being at a new rec. center with no advertising, he's got about three students right now.  We figure the best way to make some noise is to get in a cage match, video it, and slap it on the web.


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Did they say you guys were like a seventies kung fu movie?


 

lol! No, that was just a little insight into the mind of Si-Je.


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

bs10927 said:


> so i guess from what you're both saying, it's skill,experience and having the knowledge to teach students..
> 
> Si-Je, sounds like your hubbie has that along with knowing the whole system.


 
That's what I seem to understand once you strip away the politics.  But for Hubbie to keep on remembering the whole system, Si-je's got to get back into training and manage to keep it up so he can continue to remember the advanced stuff.  I'm a long way off from the dummy, weapons, and a bit closer to bui gee.  Give it another 2-3 years.  
My training hasn't been very traditional at all, got to let him play and remeber the cool stuff even if I'm nowhere near ready for it.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

Yes, I think the one Sifu Master's started getting jealousy or something. An he wanted more students I suppose. He was living with his student. An I guess his student got so good that his name started ringing out ever where that the grand master wanted to fame for himself. In fact it work. It got alot of credit at being a great fighter. Because he challenged another one his students top students. The fight had to be broken up because the grand master started attacking nerves. Lack of self control or maybe he something to prove. But when sparring with Friends there is no reason to hurt your sparring partner. But ne way The two of them haven't talked in a while. The Grandmaster wanted to fight his student. But his student reclined because he felt that was disrespectful to fight his Sifu. So he cowtow. 

But it so sad all the arrogance.


What city are you guys in now? In my city they have free advertisment in News papers. I think if you post like three sentences or less you can post it free.

So something like

Wing Chun Kung Fu training at Rec Center
Contact John Doe at Phone (555)555-8626
Blah Blah Blah etc etc,




Si-Je said:


> I think I'm familiar with this story. I identify with this fellow, I've had to leave federations because of, well, just moral reasons, arrogance, and corruption.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

Dallas.  The first time I've ever lived out here.  (born and raised in Texas).
The newspaper ads are pretty expensive.  (the phone book is worse!)  The city won't even allow you to post flyers up on the phone poles and stuff like that.  It takes way longer, but he's gotten pretty good at word of mouth.
But, hubbies got a couple of Marine kids now, one's a collegiate wrestler.  They just started, so, he's hoping to get more from their squad (whatever it's called) in the near future.

I hate teaching rec. centers.  You never get the time slots you really need, and they usually only give you an hour for class time.  And lots of nearby competition for students (they have a tai chi teacher, muy tai, and karate)

When we get a rent house or something like that, he'll just teach in the yard, or garage.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

What hubbie can do is make personal Videos. Get a camcorder. An start videotaping himself. First video tape himself Doing all the forms.Second All the basic drills. Third All the Techniques . That fourth video tape possible applications.




Si-Je said:


> That's what I seem to understand once you strip away the politics. But for Hubbie to keep on remembering the whole system, Si-je's got to get back into training and manage to keep it up so he can continue to remember the advanced stuff. I'm a long way off from the dummy, weapons, and a bit closer to bui gee. Give it another 2-3 years.
> My training hasn't been very traditional at all, got to let him play and remeber the cool stuff even if I'm nowhere near ready for it.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

Find some public parks thats not to busy. Since you just move there I guess you don't know whats what yet. But asked people about different parks in the areas. Search around at local newspapers an see if they offer a free post?



Si-Je said:


> Dallas. The first time I've ever lived out here. (born and raised in Texas).
> The newspaper ads are pretty expensive. (the phone book is worse!) The city won't even allow you to post flyers up on the phone poles and stuff like that. It takes way longer, but he's gotten pretty good at word of mouth.
> But, hubbies got a couple of Marine kids now, one's a collegiate wrestler. They just started, so, he's hoping to get more from their squad (whatever it's called) in the near future.
> 
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

Those are great ideas!  We will do asap.  We've got a couple of parks nearby we could go to train at.  This spring will be good for that.  
Before with the video stuff he wanted to focus more on me doing little demos.  To show his skill as a teacher.  

But, I want him to focus on showing off himself and his skill.  He's just found a partner that are tall enough to look approproiate for him to show defense on.
But, being that there aren't alot of female WC/WT running around he still wants me to do videos.  (but, I'm gonna still try to weasle out of that! lol!)
The one women's self defense demo's video clips that I put together are 1-3 years old.
But, I'm gonna get more of him soon.  Hopefully a fight/match clip too.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

That sounds great. May Yahweh bless you in all you do in getting the Wing Chun out there to the people..


What I meant by recording videos. Was for his own personal library. You made mention of him forgetting the advance stuff. One thing to do is video tape yourself doing forms, drills, and basics as well as advance stuff. That way as you age you can always go back to video notes. As well as notes he takes on paper.




Si-Je said:


> Those are great ideas! We will do asap. We've got a couple of parks nearby we could go to train at. This spring will be good for that.
> Before with the video stuff he wanted to focus more on me doing little demos. To show his skill as a teacher.
> 
> But, I want him to focus on showing off himself and his skill. He's just found a partner that are tall enough to look approproiate for him to show defense on.
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

I just told him that on the phone, he's going to pick up a cheapie video camera this week and we'll start doing that.  (that, I'm sure will be a work in progress for awhile, he knows alot)
That's a great idea!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

That would be great, for him too. He gets a chance to look at what he learn an critique it. When He sits back an watches the videos over time. This will be great tool for when he gets older. Plus it gives him something to leave your kids!



Si-Je said:


> I just told him that on the phone, he's going to pick up a cheapie video camera this week and we'll start doing that. (that, I'm sure will be a work in progress for awhile, he knows alot)
> That's a great idea!


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

We had some old videos of him that got lost on my last computer.  This time I'll burn them on CD.
Baby girl would love to see videos of him.  

She loves Emin videos, just facinated with them.  
We probably shouldn't have let her watch the anti-grappling stuff so early, she's already picked that stuff up and uses it on mommy when dressing her and diaper changes.  Thinks it's funny as heck!  lol!
I've got to do chi sau to get the diaper done!

He used to train with her as a baby, in the crook of his arm, showing students technique one handed.  She laughed her head off!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

all thats great, Not too many women like gung fu. I try to get my wife into it. She comes to Tai Chi class sometimes. The Wing Chun was too hard for her especially when we started down punches. But the other day she was watching Gung Fu panda. She saw the panther do some pressure point strikes she was like I wanna learn how to do that.

I told her it would take alot conditioning of your hands and fingers and hard practice. I didn't tell her about horse stance and chi cultivation. Lol. 

But maybe if I get enough of kung fu comedies she will get interested. But No jackie chan she doesn't like his movies.


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

Show her Iron Monkey by Quentin Tarantino.  Cute show. (not an anime though)
And Kung Fu Hustle is a really good one.


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## Si-Je (Dec 10, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> The Wing Chun was too hard for her especially when we started down punches.


 
If they are the same down punches I'm thinking of,... tell her it's a great workout for her glutes, and theighs.  Us ladies love to work out those target areas!  
Might help give her another reason to do the drill, and make it seem more worth while to her even though it's hard.  (That's worked with several women in our classes, motivates, and pulls them through the harder training so they don't get so discouraged)


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## mook jong man (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm starting to teach my wife again as well , this time it looks like she might stick with it . 
She used to do it years ago at the school I was at but only got up to grade two .
In fact that is where we first met ( instructors always get first choice of the ladyeees lol) . My wife is Japanese and has this very soft skin that bruises easily , I mean you only have to look at her and she bruises . 

So she's been going to work with all these bruises up her arm and the other women have been looking at her like wtf happened to you ? 

So for my sake I hope her arms start to get a bit conditioned and stop bruising up so easily otherwise people in her office are going to start to think she's married to a wife beater .


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 10, 2008)

Nah, Getting in shape don't motivate her she is small or petite already. So she don't need to lose weight. She is very thin. Alot of women in her family can't believe how small she is. Because her other relatives her age have gotten big except for one.



Si-Je said:


> If they are the same down punches I'm thinking of,... tell her it's a great workout for her glutes, and theighs. Us ladies love to work out those target areas!
> Might help give her another reason to do the drill, and make it seem more worth while to her even though it's hard. (That's worked with several women in our classes, motivates, and pulls them through the harder training so they don't get so discouraged)


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> In fact that is where we first met ( instructors always get first choice of the ladyeees lol) . .


 
Ain't that the truth?! lol!  That's how I met hubbie.



mook jong man said:


> My wife is Japanese and has this very soft skin that bruises easily , I mean you only have to look at her and she bruises .
> 
> So she's been going to work with all these bruises up her arm and the other women have been looking at her like wtf happened to you ?
> 
> So for my sake I hope her arms start to get a bit conditioned and stop bruising up so easily otherwise people in her office are going to start to think she's married to a wife beater .


 

I used to bruise like that too, especially doing lap sau (or is it called lat sau?  Chain punching eachother)
The only thing that stopped the bruising and aches, is relaxing.  That only came after a loooog time for me, I'm a high strung kid. lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

Very interesting. Si-Je could it be your arms also started to get condition over time from the constant contact. Maybe thats another reason why you can relax now.


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't think so, because I've been out of training regulaly for the past year (since the school went out of business and we moved to Dallas) and if I do lat sau with hubbie it still hurts when I tense up.  And I'll still bruise.
Basically, when working out with him anytime on any application or drill as soon as I tense up I hurt myself.  Either jam up my shoulder, neck, (when tan sau or gong sau collapses and I get jammed against his body by trying to force it too much) or bang my arms.
If I'm relaxed, and utilizing forward thought "force" (I like to refer to it only as pressure.  People tense up when you tell them forward force) then it feels, easy, relaxed, and efficient, without bangs and bumps.

I tell people (and myself when I forget) that if WT/WC isn't easy, then your doing it wrong.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

Very Interesting


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Very Interesting


 
What's that mean? lol!  Your humoring me, aren't you?
That's okay, I'm used to it.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

On the contrary I found it interesting. No humor. I am sorry I will stop being so military like. Let me crack a corney joke.

Hey Si-Je why did the chicken cross the road?


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Just joshin' ya.  

Just when your partner is so much ridiculously larger than you, you tend to know right away when your doing something wrong.

And when you teeny you absolutely have to relax other wise you hurt yourself on a stronger guy.  Which, makes it hard to relax because you know all this.  Which makes loud talking in your head when your trying to learn new techniques in WC/WT when your head has to be quiet so you can feel, and respond properly.
Enter frustration!! ack!
The trick is making the body do what the mind knows needs to be done.

The closer I get into him the more I hunch and crunch my shoulders unconsciously, because I don't want to smack face first into his shoulder, elbow, chest or sometimes head (when I'm latching, kicking, etc.).  Which, of course, I've done numeriously in the past learning new techniques, and it's not pleasant!  lol!
Gotta keep the posture, or everything collapses.


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Guess we are waaaaayyy off topic! lol!
But, really, I think all this silly stuff is what makes a sifu.  When WC/WT is your life, love, mistress (lol!), and becomes who and what you are.
A teacher, a mentor, a lover of kung fu.  It's a 24/7 lifestyle, so you BETTER have FUN doing it!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

Yea brown belt you way off topic..


Are you familiar with the term Curl in wing chun?




Si-Je said:


> Just joshin' ya.
> 
> Just when your partner is so much ridiculously larger than you, you tend to know right away when your doing something wrong.
> 
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Yea brown belt you way off topic..
> Are you familiar with the term Curl in wing chun?


 
What's Curl?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

The Curl is how you concave your chest in. Like Yip Man and Jun Fan are doing while performing Chi Sau in my pic!


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Oh,.. No, I'm like crunching my shoulders into my ears like a street punk trying to box! lol!
Hubbie's been working on me flexing my spine and pushing my chest out when punching and using tan sau.
My posture is aweful!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

No the Curl is how your not punching and when you punch your chest moves outward. But before you punch your chest convexes. 

*Pictures of Correct Body Structure the Wing Chun Curl!*

















Si-Je said:


> Oh,.. No, I'm like crunching my shoulders into my ears like a street punk trying to box! lol!
> Hubbie's been working on me flexing my spine and pushing my chest out when punching and using tan sau.
> My posture is aweful!


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Bleegh?!
Lost me there.  Hubbie says I'm doing it but don't know it.  And, if that's so, I'm truely unconscious!
You'd have to break that down for me some more.
I do love the pictures!  How'd you put html in your post like that?

Wait, I re-read that. okay.  I think I see what your saying.  When you punch your chest moves out with the punch.  Your at a relaxed position and you extend your chest and arch(flex) your spine forward as you punch.  right?


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## Si-Je (Dec 11, 2008)

Like a snake, you curl at ready position, then arch to strike?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 11, 2008)

I am not sure about the terminology but it sounds pretty good. If your doing it already thats fine. I had to practice. But my Sifu said my body was naturally curled too. But it took me a while to look like him. Atleast I think it did!



Si-Je said:


> Bleegh?!
> Lost me there. Hubbie says I'm doing it but don't know it. And, if that's so, I'm truely unconscious!
> You'd have to break that down for me some more.
> I do love the pictures! How'd you put html in your post like that?
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 12, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I am not sure about the terminology but it sounds pretty good. If your doing it already thats fine. I had to practice. But my Sifu said my body was naturally curled too. But it took me a while to look like him. Atleast I think it did!


 

Oh, we've practiced it several times, don't get me wrong.  I don't think I do it EVERYtime.  And that's something I haven't even thought of in over a year.  Great reminder!  
That sinches it, I want a heavy bag for christmas, this is just no fun without a bag!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 12, 2008)

Well I don't know how strong you are but I suggest you start with atleast 100 lbs for punches. knees and finger strikes and phoenix strikes are good for 80lb and 65lb bags.
I suggest atleast 100lb bag.

If you want strong kicks too try atlease 200lbs.

When you can seen the bag flying from an inch punch your a dangerous girl!



Si-Je said:


> Oh, we've practiced it several times, don't get me wrong. I don't think I do it EVERYtime. And that's something I haven't even thought of in over a year. Great reminder!
> That sinches it, I want a heavy bag for christmas, this is just no fun without a bag!


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## Si-Je (Dec 12, 2008)

Was wanting a Muy Tai bag for the length.  I don't know how heavy they are.  Been wanting to work on getting more power in my hook kick, it's pretty puny right now.

I'm not familiar with that type of finger punching.  But, I can move a 75 lb. bag really good with chainpunching.  Too much sometimes, have to chase the bag.
I like the course textured bags, they keep you from hammering, or circling when you chainpunch.  painful.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 12, 2008)

Do you have 75lbs bag already. Finger strikes could be like snake hand or Bil Gee strikes. Do it lightly at first so you don't jam your fingers. An then also do phoenix fist where the index finger curved inward is sticking out. The Little knuckle part. I am not sure whats it called. Also leopard strikes are good to practice on light bag. An practice punching the bag with out moving your hand back. In other words. Place your hand upagainst the bag. Only bend your wrist slightly upward then snap it back down in place. Use your stance hips and curl to hit the bag with out drawing your hand back.

Heres the killer....now do it thousand times on each hand. After about month you will have a killer punch from like no distance. At alll....lol





Si-Je said:


> Was wanting a Muy Tai bag for the length. I don't know how heavy they are. Been wanting to work on getting more power in my hook kick, it's pretty puny right now.
> 
> I'm not familiar with that type of finger punching. But, I can move a 75 lb. bag really good with chainpunching. Too much sometimes, have to chase the bag.
> I like the course textured bags, they keep you from hammering, or circling when you chainpunch. painful.


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## Si-Je (Dec 13, 2008)

Wow, your hard core! 

So, do I just move my hand up and down at the wrist each time I punch, or just the first time? hitting the bag while keeping the fist in same the place just touching the bag with index finger?

Right?

How do you generate power from the hips and curl? Are you starting with the curl in a curled position and then extending your chest forward when you do the strike? Shooting hips up at the same time? 

Ahhhh, many questions I have for you!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 14, 2008)

Well let me start with the first drill. The First drill can be done many different ways.


I personally suggest it this way.

Start off with your left hand. Place it up against the heavy bag. Just bend the wrist up with fist angling down. Then when with a snap angle the wrist into correct posistion and fist goes into correct posistion. When you do this. Use your structure and send it through the bag. Since your hand is extended already you may want turn your chest from the curl to concave upon impact. Use the hips and Torso. How you use the hips. You send the energy up by giggling(More like a light shake from left to right) the hips slightly. It sounds funny but it works. Breath out when you hit every time. The Torso turns as you wrist snaps. Also use your elbow to send your force to bag. Elbow should be slightly bent at all times. But it should snap upon impact. shoulders and waist should rotate. Its hard to explain the rotation. But if your in a stance and you turn your body to side kinda of like that. You know you front punch and then you turn your body to side an punch in front of you but only now your shoulder is facing your opponent. Do you understand what I mean. I am not sure of your lineage terminogly so I am saying this simple as possible. My Sifu said its called  parrallel punch or rotating side punch.

In my lineage its also called Side punch or Single Dragon if you fighting from a side body posistion.

Picture below. Look at Meridan Punch and Side Punch. Your body goes from Meridan to side. Imagine if your fist is on someones nose and you totally push in by just adjusting your body. I could show a guy doing this in video but I don't like his structure. An he looks totaly weak. But I hope my explanation helps. I have to leave out alot of terms cause you would have no iead what I mean






Yea, You can just start off touching bag an then once you do it on left hand like 100 times switch to right and do 100. Or start off with ten or fifty or what ever. Work your way up to thousand a day. Five hundred on each hand. You can do it sets of 100 and switch and keep switching hands until you get to 1000. Somepeople teach this in parts. To train different parts of your hand at a time. I think both are good. But I think you can use whole body force first that way it gets ingrained an later you can go back to breaking down each part of the arm. 

For instance somepeople say just start off with the wrist alone. An bend the wrist up and down to correct posistion. Thats cool But I perfer to work out entire body when i punch. But you can break it down like that. all you are working is just the wrist. Thats cool too. It will strengthen just your wrist while punching so you can use several blows in same place over an over again with out using your body or moving your hand. But using the whole body will develop the power you want alot faster. In my humble opinion. Everyone teaches differently Are you can practice both. I do. The each have their place are effective over time. Imagine you can get your fist to someone face an maybe you hit them an stunned them again but their holding your left hand. Your right hand is free in his face. Why not bend the wrist and send nice punch back to his nose a second and third time while rotating your waist snapping the punch in his face shaking the hips and exhaling again with the fist and power going into his nose. Excellent. Remember the head only weighs 12 pounds. So if you can work up to moving a bag that is filled with sand an weighs like 80lbs imagine how you will moved their head? Hmmm I hit a eightypound bag and can send it flying up in the air. Whats going to happen to attacker Bubba when I hit him the face with this same force? Hmmm...His head only weighs 12 pounds. My Sifu often reminded me of this fact. The head only weighs 10 to 12 pounds. So build up atleast Eighty pounds of pressure in your hands so you administer deadly blows to head. Now for the body. If you want to hurt the body you have to you need a atleast 100lbs bag to atleast 200 to 300lbs. If you can acquire 300lbs or 400lbs bag. Great work your kicks. Side kick and front kick. Work your front punches. Work your palm strikes and elbow strikes. When you can move a 400lbs bag with punch or kick. Then ole drunk pervert rapist who weighs 200lbs is going feel it when you punch or kick him. 

I use to do a similiar exercise that one guy spoke of on the forum with free weights. Only I would stand up. Hold my fist in palm up posistion infront of me. Like tan sau. Then extend the fist out slightly straighten the elbow an punch the fist out. I would start off with ten pound weight or 20 pound weight. I would do atleat ten on one hand and ten on the other. Moving up to 30 reps. This way that little simple torque would be stronger to where I was literally pushing out 20lbs of force. Just pushing not punching. No snap no force. I do the reps slowly. To build strenght. along with punching air and sil lim tao. My punches got stronger. One day I was training my friend in wing chun. I was demostrating Sil Lim Tao done slow and done with power at medium speed. He was like Dam it sounds like the kung fu movies. He could hear pressure in air when I punch or move into blocking patterns. He was impressed. But Then I realize i was doing something right. Because I never paid attention to sound it makes. I was demostrating two weeks to my sifu About using Side punch inside or atleast in elbow striking range. His eyes got big when I threw the punch. He just said be careful please don't kill anybody with that punch.
I told him I would never seek fights or go out looking for trouble. But if I am corner. Out comes full body power. He said thats exactly how I feel We are so much alike.

But start off doing it slow. No speed. But do generate power in your arm shoulders and waist. Concave your chest naturally. Don't force it. In time more power will build. It may hurt at first like the muscles depending on how heavy your bag is. Like 200lbs or more you going to feel it in your muscles. But after a few months. You will notice a definite increase in power. This is how you develop deadly force in your punches. For deadly force to head 100lbs bag. For deadly force to body you need 300lbs bag or 400lbs bag That way anyone who is 200lbs or less will have 100lbs or more of force going to their kidneys or spleen when you punch them their. Imagine punching a bag that is 400lbs and after six months to a year you can move it easily. Now hit a 180lb man in his diaphram or sternum with that same punch that you have condition on wall bag filled steel shots and build up with a four hundred pound heavy bag. Imagine hitting him? What is he going to be feeling. Even if your a woman?







Si-Je said:


> Wow, your hard core!
> 
> So, do I just move my hand up and down at the wrist each time I punch, or just the first time? hitting the bag while keeping the fist in same the place just touching the bag with index finger?
> 
> ...


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 14, 2008)

I just now grasp the revelance of this. Wow, I have to catch things alot quicker. Yea, Wing Chun is based of Snake and Crane. So I guess that would be great reason for the curl too.  

Check this scene of Jackie Chan on the wooden man I love it...





 

I know its off topic. Some of scenes in Rumble in the bronx look like Chan is doing wing chun....



Si-Je said:


> Like a snake, you curl at ready position, then arch to strike?


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## Si-Je (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks for the video (love the mook jong coat rack! lol!)

And definately for the description of generating power in punching.  
I haven't worked alot on this, I've worked with chainpunching 75-100lb bags chainpunching, or stepping into the bag with one punch.  (we extend the back when we walk into the bag and punch to generate forward force through the target on the first punch before chainpunching)

This is something I'm going to work on asap.  Maybe Santa will get us a punching bag (HO! HO! it's on the list)  We work with the bag at the rec. center sometimes, but it's not the same when it's YOUR bag at home.
They've got the bag shaped like a person (we call him BOB, 'cause the head bobs back and forward when you hit it like a persons head does.)  But, he probably wouldn't be good for that kind of drill.  (besides, people would be looking at me! lol!) And I have no idea how much he weighs.

Last time I slapped Bob around with Hubbie, the whole gym was staring at us.  Hate that.  Wouldn't be so bad if they would come up and talk to us and join the class, argggh!  Will get a bag soon.  And thanks again for the explaination, saved it on desktop, and will study that one until i get a bag and work on that for sure.  
Punching power is the LAST thing anyone would expect from me, so I want it.  lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

I don't think Century Bob will give you punching power. But it is great weapon development tool. For me the Bob is great for working on elbow strikes and bil gee techiques.

*Bob trains*
Eye strikes
Phoenix Eye Fist Strikes
Ginger Fist Strikes
Vertical Elbow strikes
Horizontal Elbow Strikes
Diagonal Elbow strikes
Linear Elbow strikes
Groin attack with knee or Bil Gee
Iron Finger attacks.

I would use the body for pressure point strikes too. Its really good to train your fingers so you can get to use to hitting something with resistance. I perfer palm strikes on a tree. Reason being when you reach the point to where you can slap the tree an bark flys off but your hand doesn't change color or get bruise anymore you have some strong hands. Imagine palm striking someones body and leaving an hand print on them.

Bob can definitely help with attacking percision and accuracy because it gives you real feeling of person. Especially for nose and chin attacks. Since the water or sand is at the bottom in circle container you really wont get the resistance you want from hitting bob with power. Bob will fly all over. He will move fairly easy. Which is what you don't want. The Weight at bottom is just to keep bob from sliding across the floor. But to develop punching power and kicking power you need a heavy bag filled with sand. Not water and anything else but sand.

My Sihing said he went to army surplus store bought two big duffle bags. Place two big trash bags inside them. Double the duffle bag up. Put sand inside the trash bag thats inside the duffle bag. An hung the duffle bag up on iron stand. An he kicks and punches that. He said the duffle bag weights about 100lbs but filled with sand. So you get resistance. An over time he was also able to send the bag flying. I had a friend who had 65lbs bag. I think it was filled with water. That sucker when I hit it with just inch power it would fly up an hit the wall. I hit it will full power it could hit the ceiling if the wall wasn't in the way. I had to stop hitting it force so I the walls could stop making that loud bang sound when ever the bag hit it. I hit it once into the stand an the stand legs came off the ground. That sucker was too light. I don't like the bags with water. An I wasn't even using gloves to hit the bag.





Si-Je said:


> Thanks for the video (love the mook jong coat rack! lol!)
> 
> And definately for the description of generating power in punching.
> I haven't worked alot on this, I've worked with chainpunching 75-100lb bags chainpunching, or stepping into the bag with one punch. (we extend the back when we walk into the bag and punch to generate forward force through the target on the first punch before chainpunching)
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Wow! I had a wave bag once and put it in the spare bedroom.  I'd chainpunch it all over the room, used it to work on stance and follow through on a "fleeing" opponent.  I'd kick it and it would fall backwards (we put sand in the base) but it'd pop back up.
That was two years ago though.  We haven't had a bag in a long time.
Hubbie's leg pressing 1,000 lbs again.  (gulp, scarry) and I totally can't even hold the focus mits for him anymore.  (hurts my wrist wicked bad!)
When you talked about 300 and 400 lb. bags, I didn't know they had them that heavy!  Where do you get one?
(better question, how do you hang one up? lol!)  He could use something like that.

The majority of my training in WingChun has been without the gear Hubbie had when he trained, and it shows in my power.  Have to have hubbie hold the kicking pad at his chest and work on that kind of stuff.  But, we don't do that for really long periods of time.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Yea instead of focus mitts get the muay thai kicking shields. They are thicker. You will still get a tremendous shock from your husbands kicks. 
But I cant find the fourhundred lbs bags. But the 300lbs bag I found once on the net. I know they are more like custom made. But sounds like some good exercises. Accept for the wave bag. I don't like those things. No resistance. Just gives me something soft to hit. The purpose boxers hit the bags with the sand is so they can build up knock out force. The heavier the bag the deadlier your punch. Its better to have sixty five pound bag filled with sand than wavemaster if you asked me?Just my opinion....





Si-Je said:


> Wow! I had a wave bag once and put it in the spare bedroom. I'd chainpunch it all over the room, used it to work on stance and follow through on a "fleeing" opponent. I'd kick it and it would fall backwards (we put sand in the base) but it'd pop back up.
> That was two years ago though. We haven't had a bag in a long time.
> Hubbie's leg pressing 1,000 lbs again. (gulp, scarry) and I totally can't even hold the focus mits for him anymore. (hurts my wrist wicked bad!)
> When you talked about 300 and 400 lb. bags, I didn't know they had them that heavy! Where do you get one?
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

quote=Yoshiyahu;1085818]Yea instead of focus mitts get the muay thai kicking shields. They are thicker. You will still get a tremendous shock from your husbands kicks. 
..[/quote]
It's his punches that hurt my wrists on the focus mits.  I could never stand up to his kicks behind a bag! lol!  I'd be airborne!


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## mook jong man (Dec 15, 2008)

What I did to make my bag more heavy was to get some sand from the hardware store it was pretty cheap , but I suppose you could also take some from the beach .

 I triple bagged the sand in little plastic bags and took out all the old rags that were inside the middle of the bag and replaced this core of rags with the sand bags . 

It increased the weight of the bag dramatically , but make sure you still have a good layer of rags around the core of sand because once the sand becomes compacted its like slamming your leg into concrete.

 I don't really have a solution for your problem with holding the focus mitts , Yosh's suggestion about the thai pads for hubbies punching was a good one , also make sure you are not resisting his strike just let your pad holding arm go with his force .

 As a last resort you could get a new hubbie , maybe one of those emo types that are so popular these days , one of their punches would be so wimpy it would be like getting slapped with a wet lettuce leaf.  :uhyeah:


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

lol! you make me laugh.  Emo.  They remind me of Goth kids with no bite.  Couldn't deal with that, they couldn't handle me, I'm too mean.  heheh.  

I'd love to get some of the harder Muy Tai pads, love hitting those too.  Hubbie punches fast, and after about the 10th or 15th punch in a couple of seconds my wrist feels like he's slowing snapping my hand right off it!  
Will just let him punch the big tough muscular marine students he's picked up.  

Emo.  :barf:


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Ha Ha...

Do you guys have a wall bag?


You may need the MMA focus mitts. Lol...




Si-Je said:


> quote=Yoshiyahu;1085818]Yea instead of focus mitts get the muay thai kicking shields. They are thicker. You will still get a tremendous shock from your husbands kicks.
> ..


It's his punches that hurt my wrists on the focus mits. I could never stand up to his kicks behind a bag! lol! I'd be airborne![/quote]


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## jks9199 (Dec 15, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> What I did to make my bag more heavy was to get some sand from the hardware store it was pretty cheap , but I suppose you could also take some from the beach .
> 
> I triple bagged the sand in little plastic bags and took out all the old rags that were inside the middle of the bag and replaced this core of rags with the sand bags .
> 
> ...


Don't take sand from the beach.  It'll be wet, and it'll be filled with living stuff.  Which will quickly live in your bag.  Buy sterile/clean playground sand, not construction sand, if you're going to use it to fill a bag.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

I believe Si-Je doesn't want a man she can slap around. But man that will intimatate others so when she walks down the street with her hubbie attackers would beware of attacking her while she with her hubbie. Lol...




mook jong man said:


> What I did to make my bag more heavy was to get some sand from the hardware store it was pretty cheap , but I suppose you could also take some from the beach .
> 
> I triple bagged the sand in little plastic bags and took out all the old rags that were inside the middle of the bag and replaced this core of rags with the sand bags .
> 
> ...


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Ewww sounds like creepy crawlies in the bag....




jks9199 said:


> Don't take sand from the beach. It'll be wet, and it'll be filled with living stuff. Which will quickly live in your bag. Buy sterile/clean playground sand, not construction sand, if you're going to use it to fill a bag.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I believe Si-Je doesn't want a man she can slap around. But man that will intimatate others so when she walks down the street with her hubbie attackers would beware of attacking her while she with her hubbie. Lol...


 
That leave less work for me! lol!  But really, it's me they have to watch out for.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Well Said Black Belt

:BSmeter:




Si-Je said:


> That leave less work for me! lol! But really, it's me they have to watch out for.


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## Mystic Wolf (Dec 15, 2008)

oops


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Well, when your a female martial artist most guys are like, "don't worry, she can handle it."  And your stuck with dealing with ALL the trouble that comes along.  (sometimes trouble that the guy your out with BRINGS along!)
It's a nice little vacation for me to have gigantic hubbie bebobing around to keep the dorks away.
hey, so "a wing chunner a day keeps the dorks away?"  (I like that, it's a keeper.)
:angel:


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## mook jong man (Dec 15, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Don't take sand from the beach. It'll be wet, and it'll be filled with living stuff. Which will quickly live in your bag. Buy sterile/clean playground sand, not construction sand, if you're going to use it to fill a bag.


 
Hmm , I never thought about the living stuff . 
Imagine that you go out to use your bag , and somethings been breeding in there , and one of those face suckers from aliens suddenly erupts out out of the bag and lodges itself on your face . aaaghhhhhh


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Actually on the movie Aliens they are not face suckers. You got the "*Uckers"* part right but their actually not sucking your face they are doing something more to your face.I give you a hint;"The word ends with uck" An then Nine Hours later a baby alien pops out your stomach!

Talk about wrong place at the wrong time.




mook jong man said:


> Hmm , I never thought about the living stuff .
> Imagine that you go out to use your bag , and somethings been breeding in there , and one of those face suckers from aliens suddenly erupts out out of the bag and lodges itself on your face . aaaghhhhhh


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## Si-Je (Dec 16, 2008)

Wow, there's nothing like being skull ukered. lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 16, 2008)

Yea The aliens guy plant seeds in your belly through your mouth really disgusting that they can impregnant you orally. I mean Why can't they make babies the normal way. 





Si-Je said:


> Wow, there's nothing like being skull ukered. lol!


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