# Tai Chi Chuan and the Tao Te Ching



## Xue Sheng (Feb 9, 2006)

Is it just me, am I on philosophical overload, or does this make a lot of sense as it applies to Tai Chi Chuan.

This is from one of many translation of the Tao Te Ching  Lao Tzu

When you wish to contract something
        You must momentarily expand it
When you wish to weaken something 
        You must momentarily strengthen it
When you wish to reject something 
        You must momentarily join with it
When you wish to seize something
        You most momentarily give it up
This is called subtle insight

The soft and weak conquer the strong


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## dmax999 (Feb 9, 2006)

Interesting you came up with that idea. When I started trying to read about Tai Chi every reference stated that it originated with the Tao Te Ching and you couldn't understand Tai Chi without understanding Lao Tzu's poems in it. I don't think I've seen that stated anywhere for nearly ten years or so, but it literally used to be the fist statement on any article or book on Tai Chi over ten years ago.

Another side note:
Tai Chi Chuan translates into "Supreme Ultimate Fist" which I always took to mean most powerful fist. However, someone else told me it actually meanst fist based on the supreme ultimate theory of yin-yang, which makes so much more sense.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 10, 2006)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Interesting you came up with that idea. When I started trying to read about Tai Chi every reference stated that it originated with the Tao Te Ching and you couldn't understand Tai Chi without understanding Lao Tzu's poems in it. I don't think I've seen that stated anywhere for nearly ten years or so, but it literally used to be the fist statement on any article or book on Tai Chi over ten years ago.
> 
> Another side note:
> Tai Chi Chuan translates into "Supreme Ultimate Fist" which I always took to mean most powerful fist. However, someone else told me it actually meanst fist based on the supreme ultimate theory of yin-yang, which makes so much more sense.


 
I have been researching Taoism because that is basically the root of Tai Chi Chuan and I decided if I were going to advance further I needed to know more about it. 

I have reads the Tao Te Ching before, a couple of translations including this one, but I never noticed this before. 

When I came across that it this time it made perfect sense, to me, as it applies to what I know and what I have read about tai chi chuan. 

But sense I have been reading A LOT of this stuff lately I  was wondering if I was on Philosophy overload and a bit delusional. I am glad to hear that it is possible that I am not, thank you.


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## Dronak (Feb 10, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I have been researching Taoism because that is basically the root of Tai Chi Chuan and I decided if I were going to advance further I needed to know more about it.



I was going to say that there should be some links between the two since tai chi was developed around taoist concepts.  I don't think you're on a philosophy overload, but perhaps going through the philosophy while keeping tai chi aspects in mind is helping you find some links you didn't notice before.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2006)

Dronak said:
			
		

> I was going to say that there should be some links between the two since tai chi was developed around taoist concepts. I don't think you're on a philosophy overload, but perhaps going through the philosophy while keeping tai chi aspects in mind is helping you find some links you didn't notice before.


 
That could be it, thanks.


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## East Winds (Feb 11, 2006)

Xue Sheng,

This is why the external guys have so much trouble understanding the concept of "Use Mind not Force". To go up, you must first go down. To go left, you must first go right...etc. etc.etc. Just exactly as Lao Tzu wrote it!! Grasp this concept and you have one of the "secrets" of Taijiquan.

Best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2006)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng,
> 
> This is why the external guys have so much trouble understanding the concept of "Use Mind not Force". To go up, you must first go down. To go left, you must first go right...etc. etc.etc. Just exactly as Lao Tzu wrote it!! Grasp this concept and you have one of the "secrets" of Taijiquan.
> 
> Best wishes


 
Thanks, I also just noticed part of your signature

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it" 

That is exactly what my teacher says when asked and he claims that is pretty much what his teacher "Tung Ying Chieh" said as well. I have heard that response for years. 

But back the topic, since I had studied the Tao Te Ching before and not seen this and since I have been reading a lot about Taoism lately as well, in order to make my tai chi better and also as an attempt to get rid of this feeling of disillusionment I get every time I do or go to anything Yang style tai chi lately, I was beginning to wonder if I had finally understood something Taoist, or that I was just wishing I understood something. 

Well there are 81 poems in the Tao Te Ching, 1 down 80 to go, and then on to Chuang tzu, if it were only that simple.


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## Dronak (Feb 11, 2006)

What's the Chuang tzu text you're talking about?  I'm wondering if it's something I am/should be familiar with.  I don't recognize the name right now though.

Aside:  One of these days, I should add a book on tai chi classics to my library.  Some are included/covered in other books I own, but having one book dedicated to them alone might be good.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2006)

Dronak said:
			
		

> What's the Chuang tzu text you're talking about? I'm wondering if it's something I am/should be familiar with. I don't recognize the name right now though.
> 
> Aside: One of these days, I should add a book on tai chi classics to my library. Some are included/covered in other books I own, but having one book dedicated to them alone might be good.


 
Chuang Tzu is a Taoist philosopher that wrote a book called "the Chuang Tzu" I read it many years ago; I am going to read it again.

Chuang Tzu apparently had great influence on Taoism and Zen Buddhism.

But since I am researching Taoism after the "Tao Te Ching" "the Chung Tzu" comes next.

I believe I have a copy of the Tai Chi classics that I never read. Thanks for reminding me, I am going to have to read that too.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2006)

My bad, I made it sound like there was only one. 

There are more books attributed to Chuang Tzu than just "the chuang tzu" 

However my reference was to "the chuang tzu"


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## East Winds (Feb 12, 2006)

One of the best ones on the Tai Chi classics is "T'ai Chi Classics" translated with commentary by Waysun Liao. Published by Shambhala Classics.
 ISBN 0-87773-531-X.

Best wishes


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## Gaoguy (Feb 12, 2006)

I'm going to have to disagree here. The exercises Liao shows are from the fujian white crane and can be very harmful. I know a guy who studied there who had a very bad time of it.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2006)

Gaoguy said:
			
		

> I'm going to have to disagree here. The exercises Liao shows are from the fujian white crane and can be very harmful. I know a guy who studied there who had a very bad time of it.


 
What????

Who is Liao?

I am talking about Lao Tzu, Taoism, Tao Te Ching

I do not believe Fujian white crane has even been discussed.


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## Dronak (Feb 12, 2006)

Gaoguy is referring to the tai chi classics book East Winds recommended.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2006)

Oops

Oh sure, now you tell me. 

Sorry about that, I was apparently in Sunday mode, basically brainless

Sorry about that


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 13, 2006)

Taoism site with some intersting reading on it.

Taoism Information Page
http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/index.html
The Chuang-tzu or Zhuang-zi
http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/cz-list.html
Lin Yutang's translation of the Chuang-tzu
http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/cz-text2.html

And Gaoguy, sorry about that. I should have known your post would be relevant and I should have read the previous posts more carefully.


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## East Winds (Feb 14, 2006)

I stand by my reccommendation of the Tai Chi classics by Waysun Liao. The book and the exercises have absolutely nothing to do with fujian white crane!

Perhaps the book should be put in context by a quote from the authors preface : "This book is therefore intended only to serve as a source of reference for the beginner and as a guide in the understanding and practise of the art (Taijiquan) for the advanced student"

I suggest that the fault lay with your friend and not with the book!!

Best wishes


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## Gaoguy (Feb 14, 2006)

Clearly you have no experience in Fujian White Crane. The exercise are NOT taiji. See if Chen Xiaowang, Yang Zhenduo, any of the Wu's use them in their curricullum. I would suggest using those exercises at your own peril. They are clearly WC vibrating exercises. Sometimes these things take years to show their effects. See BK Frantzis' book Opening the Energy Gates of the Body.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2006)

I certainly have no idea; I know little or nothing about Fujian White Crane. I know about Fujian food (kinda sorta), since almost every restaurant in my area is run by a family from Fujian. But that is as far as my Fujian experience goes.

I do know that you have to be very careful doing any sort of intense Qi training without an experienced teacher


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## East Winds (Feb 14, 2006)

Gaoguy,

Thanks for your input. You are correct on two points. I don't practise Fujian White Crane and I don't follow Yang Zhen Duo. (I follow Yang Zhen Ji).

We all know that the Tai Chi Classics can at best be obscure and at worst incomprehensible. Waysun Liao translates the "Classics"  and then offers a series of exercises which help to illustrate and explain in a very practical way, their meaning.

One of the Tai Chi Classics states "The Internal energy should be extended, vibrated like the beat of a drum. The spirit should be condensed in towards the centre of your body".  And yes, Waysun Liao provides an exercise to help explain this rather obscure phrase.  However, If you had bothered to read further, you would have found that he says  "Therefore it is highly recommended that the learning process be supervised by a qualified instructor in order to avoid such potential problems as wasted time, mistakes, frustration and serious injury - all of which can occur as a result of improper practise methods" and in the next paragraph " ......students, and especially those in the advanced stages of training, should bear in mind the potential capacity of certain formations of internal power to accidentally cause seriuous injury. Cautious practise, both individual and two-person, is an indication of the best attitude of the T'ai Chi martial artist". 

Incidentally I also have a copy of Kumar Fratzis' book which I have also recommended on this forum.

"Qualified Instructor" , "Improper Training Methods" , "Cautious Practise" are phrases that jump out to me in the above text. If someone is stupid enough, or vain enough to ignore these very obvious warnings then I'm afraid any damage caused will be self inflicted. 

There are many Qigong practices that are dangerous if unsupervised or practised incorrectly ( See Kumar Frantzis!!!!!). Waysun Liao gives the clearest explanation yet of the Tai Chi Classics.

Very best wishes


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