# Bjj



## firerex (Aug 13, 2009)

i hate how much BJJ is discredited now because of MMA, i have nothing against the MMA but seriously BJJ is an art, i have too many people coming into my academy saying oh i was looking for MMA not BJJ. Gr it's so aggrevating.


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> i hate how much BJJ is discredited now because of MMA, i have nothing against the MMA but seriously BJJ is an art, i have too many people coming into my academy saying oh i was looking for MMA not BJJ. Gr it's so aggrevating.


 
The following is just my opinion.  BJJ, just like every other martial art of its time, was the flavor of the week, when the UFC first started, back in 1993.  Everyone ran out and wanted to learn this art that was beating everyone in the cage.  If you look at the early UFC days, that is exactly what was happening.  

Now, fastforward to present day.  We see fighters who not only train ground, but also kicking and punching.  BJJ, much like the fighters that it was beating back in the day, was also 1 dimensional.  Only difference is, is that it was the more superior 1 dimensional art.    Today, the fighters have realized that the once superior art, can be beat, and its being done.  Gracie and Hughes....what happened?  Gracie was still 1 dimensional and was beat.

Now, don't mistake my post for saying that I hate BJJ.  I dont hate BJJ, in fact I enjoy rolling.  However, I'm not so blind to the fact that its not the 'best' like it was billed years ago.  

For the people coming in today, they're most likely looking for the package that has everything, ie: punching, kicking, clinch, ground.  So rather than do BJJ at one school, muay thai at the other, etc., they're looking for a school that offers what they're looking for.  

I wouldn't take it personally.


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## firerex (Aug 13, 2009)

i'm not saying it's the best, personally im a tae kwon do guy, but i don't think bjj should be "tossed out the door" so to speak by people just because it's not MMA, i also dont think MMA is truely a martial art... lets look at it for a minute, mixed MARTIAL ART, ok so lets break it down Martial and Art, i see the martial=combat side, so where is there art in MMA... theres no art, theres no flow or anything its more of a backyard wrestle than a martial art, no offense to wrestlers but its more of a sport than a martial art


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> i'm not saying it's the best, personally im a tae kwon do guy, but i don't think bjj should be "tossed out the door" so to speak by people just because it's not MMA, i also dont think MMA is truely a martial art... lets look at it for a minute, mixed MARTIAL ART, ok so lets break it down Martial and Art, i see the martial=combat side, so where is there art in MMA... theres no art, theres no flow or anything its more of a backyard wrestle than a martial art, no offense to wrestlers but its more of a sport than a martial art


 
Likewise, I didn't say it should be thrown out the door either, as noted in my post.   

I dont know what exactly it is, that the folks in your area are looking for.  IMO, thats the first step...to establish what it is they want out of their training.  As I said, BJJ offers excellent ground work.  Perhaps the students are looking for 1 place that will give them the chance to train stand up striking and kicking as well as the ground game.  Again, I dont know.  

BJJ is but one part of the fight game.  If a fighter really wants to do well, he's going to need to add the other parts in as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 13, 2009)

> where is there art in MMA... theres no art, theres no flow or anything its more of a backyard wrestle than a martial art, no offense to wrestlers but its more of a sport than a martial art


 
Well, if you're training in MMA for competition, then it is a sport. Just like judo, sambo, tae kwon do, kendo, muay thai, etc, if you train in those for competition.

It doesn't mean that MMA (and judo, sambo, tae kwon do, etc) isn't also an art. 

My primary training these days is in BJJ, but I also attend MMA classes as the mood strikes me. I'm old enough that I'm probably not ever going to compete in MMA, so I do it just for the sake of the art. Based on that experience, I can say that MMA can be just as much of an art (and has just as much flow) as any other art I've practiced. (That list includes muay thai, judo, bujinkan taijutsu, danzan ryu, and arnis.)

What has your MMA experience been like?


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## Tez3 (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> i'm not saying it's the best, personally im a tae kwon do guy, but i don't think bjj should be "tossed out the door" so to speak by people just because it's not MMA, i also dont think MMA is truely a martial art... lets look at it for a minute, mixed MARTIAL ART, ok so lets break it down Martial and Art, i see the martial=combat side, so where is there art in MMA... theres no art, theres no flow or anything its more of a backyard wrestle than a martial art, no offense to wrestlers but its more of a sport than a martial art


 
It's not mixed martial ART- its mixed martial ART*S,* it's what it says on the tin a mixture of arts not one art in itself. A great many other martial arts are also sports these days and MMA is specifically for competition so I guess you have confused things a bit here.


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## firerex (Aug 13, 2009)

well i train in taekwondo, han mu do and bjj, I can find both an art and a combat when taught traditionally but mma taught traditionally as MMA there is no art in it, if i advertise an MMA school and i start off with kata's i doubt many people will stay long because all most of them want to learn is how to fight they don't care about tradition or anything of that sort


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> well i train in taekwondo, han mu do and bjj, I can find both an art and a combat when taught traditionally but mma taught traditionally as MMA there is no art in it, if i advertise an MMA school and i start off with kata's i doubt many people will stay long because all most of them want to learn is how to fight they don't care about tradition or anything of that sort


 
And I say, to each his own.  If someone is interested in learning a traditional art, fine, I can help them.  If someone is interested in fighting in the cage, I can help them find a school that would suit their needs.  

It seems that you're getting upset with those that come to your school, find out what you teach, and say its not for them.  Whats wrong with that?  If someone came to the school I train Kenpo at, and was looking for BJJ/MMA, I can point them to 2 people I personally know, who can teach them.  I'm not offended that they dont want to train Kenpo.  If I can help them find what they want, that is all that matters to me.

If you want to advertise TKD, BJJ, etc., I'd suggest making seperate classes, rather than mix it all together.  That way, the guy looking for MMA, would have a place to train.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> well i train in taekwondo, han mu do and bjj, I can find both an art and a combat when taught traditionally but mma taught traditionally as MMA there is no art in it, if i advertise an MMA school and i start off with kata's i doubt many people will stay long because all most of them want to learn is how to fight they don't care about tradition or anything of that sort



If you started off a BJJ class with Kata you'd get some strange looks as well.  Not too mention Muay Thai, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, fencing, Japanese Jujitsu, Sambo, shootfighting or countless other martial arts.

Perhaps you are letting your preconceptions interfere with your ability to look at MMA objectively?


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 13, 2009)

> well i train in taekwondo, han mu do and bjj, I can find both an art and a combat when taught traditionally but mma taught traditionally as MMA there is no art in it, if i advertise an MMA school and i start off with kata's i doubt many people will stay long because all most of them want to learn is how to fight they don't care about tradition or anything of that sort


 
What's your definition of an "art" anyway in this context? As Andrew mentions, there are lots and lots of martial arts, including BJJ, that don't involve kata.


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## Tez3 (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> well i train in taekwondo, han mu do and bjj, I can find both an art and a combat when taught traditionally but *mma taught* *traditionally as MMA there is no art in it*, if i advertise an MMA school and i start off with kata's i doubt many people will stay long because all most of them want to learn is how to fight they don't care about tradition or anything of that sort


 
I'm sorry I've no idea what you mean by this. We teach MMA, we teach people to use BJJ, juijitsu, MT, karate, Aikido, Judo and anything else we can to enable fighters to compete in the cage/ring. We have separate TSD and SD classes.
Why would you start with katas in an MMA class and you are wrong about MMAers not wanting to know about traditional martial arts, they are as interested in oher martial arts every bit as any TMA person,also in traditions and also weapons. they may not be able or want to do it but on the whole are as open minded.
Andrew there are katas in Judo, the Kime No ones, my instructor has gone through them with me, I haven't learnt them but they are very difficult for me being on the knees lol.




 
Is this going to be just another bash MMA thread? Please don't let it be!


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## firerex (Aug 13, 2009)

i'm not trying to bash mma here i'm just confused why so many people look down on bjj, and how it seems like bjj is automaticaly MMA when mentioned and when corrcted they make bjj seem worthless


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## Steve (Aug 13, 2009)

I really don't know what to say.  I've started about 4 times to respond to this thread, but ultimately, I can't be sure what your intentions are.  Are you trying to be funny?  Are you trolling?  Are you actually serious?  I don't know.  I thought at first that you were just being funny, but I'm beginning to wonder.

The question that keeps coming to my mind is, who is tossing BJJ out the door?  Who's looking down on BJJ?   It's such a ridiculous idea that I just can't wrap my mind around it.  In the context of MMA, BJJ is like one of the legs on the stool.  At the last UFC there were 5 fights that didn't go to a decision on the main card.  Of those, 2 were submissions (RNC and Kimura).  I read somewhere recently that over 40% of all UFC fights have ended by submission.  

Ultimately, though, why do you care what the random guy coming into your school thinks?


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## firerex (Aug 13, 2009)

ok i'm saying at my school the majority of the people coming in are looking for mma, they dont care about bjj, they want a quick fix to a not so easy problem and it just urks me, then when im like no we teach tradition grace brazilian juijitsu they're like oh well nevermind i was looking for something better like mma and its just a slap in the face


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Aug 13, 2009)

firerex said:


> i hate how much BJJ is discredited now because of MMA, i have nothing against the MMA but seriously BJJ is an art, i have too many people coming into my academy saying oh i was looking for MMA not BJJ. Gr it's so aggrevating.


 

 Now you know how us in Japanese or Japanese based Jujutsu and Judo have felt for the last 10-15 years.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Aug 13, 2009)

I can't see how you can say MMA is not an art.

I am the first to respond when someone calls it the be all end all especially if they equate it with street combat but it can surely be called an art.

ANy time you do something that expresses yourself, that is art, you might not like someone's art but it is stiull an art.

 It might not be as codifeid as WTF TKD, but so what? I think the fact that it veries so much from Gym to gym makes even more of an art, as there is more individualism to it than many arts.


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## Tez3 (Aug 13, 2009)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> *I can't see how you can say MMA is not an art.*
> 
> *I am the first to respond when someone calls it the be all end all especially if they equate it with street combat but it can surely be called an art.*
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely! Good post this!

I don't understand how Firex can say BJJ is being discredited because of MMA, if anything it's made it more popular and I've heard arguments saying that BJJ is the best thing out since sliced bread! I've never heard anyone discredit or talk BJJ (or judo for that matter) down, everyone says it's an essential part of MMA. Whether it is or not is open to argument but the feeling around is thats its a good thing to have. 
You will always have idiots saying one style is better than another, it's not any styles fault, it's just human nature sometimes.


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## Steve (Aug 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely! Good post this!
> 
> I don't understand how Firex can say BJJ is being discredited because of MMA, if anything it's made it more popular and I've heard arguments saying that BJJ is the best thing out since sliced bread! I've never heard anyone discredit or talk BJJ (or judo for that matter) down, everyone says it's an essential part of MMA. Whether it is or not is open to argument but the feeling around is thats its a good thing to have.
> You will always have idiots saying one style is better than another, it's not any styles fault, it's just human nature sometimes.


It's because he's a troll and not a very good one. 

There are some great BJJ schools in Austin. Which one do you train at, firerex?  I know some guys down in Austin and I'd love to hear if they have the same impressions as you do.


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## Tez3 (Aug 13, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> It's because he's a troll and not a very good one.
> 
> There are some great BJJ schools in Austin. Which one do you train at, firerex? I know some guys down in Austin and I'd love to hear if they have the same impressions as you do.


 
Well he can't dislike MMA that much as it says on his profile under systems studied/interested in "_BJJ / *MMA* / Grappling / Wrestling, Tae Kwon Do_"


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## Nolerama (Aug 13, 2009)

I think the OP is confused over the idea that MMA people specifically want BJJ.

That's not always the case.

The folks visiting his school looking for MMA are probably looking for striking, ground, and conditioning instruction, with a focus on competitive athleticism; which is what I'd look for in a MMA gym.

Maybe the OP's gym is somehow unable to offer that. Maybe they're just offering BJJ classes, and no striking. I'm pretty sure I won't get the best kicking instruction in a BJJ class.

And he's bummed about that.


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## firerex (Aug 13, 2009)

ok look im not trying to be a troll or w/e im just saying i hate how people mistake bjj for mma at my school, sure where you come from they may put 2 and 2 together but here they dont, like i have 5 people a day come in doggin on bjj because its not mma, im sorry to cause any comotion i'll keep my problems to myself next time


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2009)

firerex said:


> ok look im not trying to be a troll or w/e im just saying i hate how people mistake bjj for mma at my school, sure where you come from they may put 2 and 2 together but here they dont, like i have 5 people a day come in doggin on bjj because its not mma, im sorry to cause any comotion i'll keep my problems to myself next time


 

If you get that many people in there's two solutions, one change your advertising so people know exactly what you are offering and two start an MMA class. There must be a reason people are thinking you are doing MMA, I would look into that rather than have a go at MMA, it's done nothing to you and I'm sure the people where you live aren't any more stupid than people anywhere else.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2009)

MMA is the flavor of the day right now.  It will be for a few years and probably more because of the UFC and other promotions.  It was the same back in the day with Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjutsu, BJJ, etc., etc.  *Personally I like it and the variety that is occuring*.  Makes me glad to be alive at this point in time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Now I have seen quite a few poorly run MMA schools sprouting up.  Heck one of my students went up north and was taking a class and then they rolled and the instructor picked him to roll with. (probably thinking he would be easy)  Next thing you know the instructor got caught in a rear naked choke and would not tap. (so he went to sleep :erg  This was an ATA school which is now ATA + MMA school!  *So when looking around for the flavor of the day always check carefully that they have the goods!*  That goes for any system!


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2009)

firerex said:


> ok look im not trying to be a troll or w/e im just saying i hate how people mistake bjj for mma at my school, sure where you come from they may put 2 and 2 together but here they dont, like i have 5 people a day come in doggin on bjj because its not mma, im sorry to cause any comotion i'll keep my problems to myself next time


 
And as I've said, these people are not seeing that BJJ is just 1 part of the puzzle.  They're assuming that its 2 different things, when in reality, BJJ or any ground art, is what makes MMA up.


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## Steve (Aug 14, 2009)

firerex said:


> ok look im not trying to be a troll or w/e im just saying i hate how people mistake bjj for mma at my school, sure where you come from they may put 2 and 2 together but here they dont, like i have 5 people a day come in doggin on bjj because its not mma, im sorry to cause any comotion i'll keep my problems to myself next time


Okay.  Presuming you ACTUALLY have 5 people a day dogging BJJ because it's not MMA, it sounds like the owner of your school is misrepresenting his school, whether intentionally or not.  

But, even as I write that, I don't believe it.  I just can't believe that anyone in the USA, particularly the type of TUF/MMA nuthugger that's looking to be the next GSP, is so ignorant of the sport that they don't understand the distinction between BJJ, Muay Thai, whatever else and MMA.  Anyone who's watched even one episode of TUF or one UFC PPV will understand these distinctions.

So, I just don't believe that you're telling the truth.  Maybe there's a kernel of truth there and you're simply exaggarating.  I don't know, but as you've laid it out, I just don't think it's true.  I don't believe that 5 people come into your school per day looking to train.  That's one hell of a lot of traffic for new guys.   Much less 5 people who are clueless about MMA, and yet want to train in MMA.  That's a staggering degree of ignorance.  

Look.  I don't know how old you are, but you come across as a young guy.  If that's the case and you're hyperbolizing the situation, try not to take it personally.  If the occasional dumb... err... bunny comes into your school, it's not your problem.  I can almost guarantee you that your instructor doesn't give it another thought.  

If you're trolling and trying to stir up conflict by reintroducing this tired old MMA vs BJJ vs everyone else BS, please stop.





			
				MJS said:
			
		

> And as I've said, these people are not seeing that BJJ is just 1 part of the puzzle. They're assuming that its 2 different things, when in reality, BJJ or any ground art, is what makes MMA up.


If these people really exist, and I'm not convinced they do.


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> > If you're trolling and trying to stir up conflict by reintroducing this tired old MMA vs BJJ vs everyone else BS, please stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 14, 2009)

I have to say that alot of people assume the whole BJJ is MMA that people think is because BJJ is a common art to know in MMA(in the cage) since alot of the famous guys know it. I did MMA for a little bit. I really enjoyed it. I can apply it to my own fighting style(I am a boxer). I am now trying to get a ground game so I am going to look for Jui Jitsu or BJJ to make my ground game better. The gym I was at assumed everyone had some form of background in wrestling or rather did not do much for those of us who were clueless to ground work. I think that is something alot of people dont get when they go into MMA. You have to know how to fight on the ground and you have to know how to strike and at the very least you better be in a school that teaches you how to do that. I am looking for a specific school becase I want to know the art before i try to mix it.


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## Steve (Aug 14, 2009)

stonewall1350 said:


> I have to say that alot of people assume the whole BJJ is MMA that people think is because BJJ is a common art to know in MMA(in the cage) since alot of the famous guys know it. I did MMA for a little bit. I really enjoyed it. I can apply it to my own fighting style(I am a boxer). I am now trying to get a ground game so I am going to look for Jui Jitsu or BJJ to make my ground game better. The gym I was at assumed everyone had some form of background in wrestling or rather did not do much for those of us who were clueless to ground work. I think that is something alot of people dont get when they go into MMA. You have to know how to fight on the ground and you have to know how to strike and at the very least you better be in a school that teaches you how to do that. I am looking for a specific school becase I want to know the art before i try to mix it.


I don't train in MMA.  I specifically stick to grappling.  But that said, our MMA coach has a professional record, is a brown belt in BJJ and an experienced Muay Thai coach.  He's also got many years experience blending all of these together.

Point isn't to brag about our guy, even though he's terrific.  It's to throw out what I believe is a reasonable baseline.  EVERY MMA school should have at least a BJJ purple belt or equivalent (ie sambo)... maybe a very experienced blue belt _in addition_ to solid wrestling (no, they aren't the same) and standup of some kind.  If you're at an "MMA" school that doesn't have _at least_ the above, I'd be a little skeptical.

Tez or other MMA guys, would you agree?


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2009)

Steve, I do agree. I think too that like boxing you will find that a good MMA place will be called a gym or club not a school. It's a small thing but indicates seriousness about MMA. An MMA gym should have a good standup coach, a good ground coach and a good fitness coach if neither of the other two are qualified. If you are going to fight, the gym should have experienced corners and tacticians. it's no good just having good technical coaches you need a manager/coach who will get you the right fights with the right people on the right shows. You need opponents that you can beat but could equally beat you. Easy wins count for nothing.
We have the BJJ and the Muay Thai coaches but not the wrestling, it's a  minority sport here and few train so coaches are few and far between. If we could we certainly would. 
A good coach doesn't have to have a professional record in MMA but if they do it's hugely beneficial.


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## jarrod (Aug 14, 2009)

as i've mentioned before, i teach shingitai jujitsu, essentially a blend of judo, sambo, & jjj.  we throw & we roll.  i've had tons of inquires from people who weren't interested because it was bjj.  sjj is a good style, it just hasn't been well marketed or had a lot of high profile mma fighters.  & that's totally fine, nothing to get bitter about.  if they would try a couple of classes they might change their mind, but most people know what they want before they go to a school & are looking for a "brand name", especially if they are new to martial arts.  it's no big deal, nothing to get bent out of shape about. 

jf


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 16, 2009)

I am guilty of looking for brand name myself so I know what you are talking about. I am one of those guys who likes to research everything before I start something or purchase something. I cant help it that I am frugal...maybe its the Scotch in me lol. But you are certainly right. In order for your art to get big you gotta advertise it. If that means squaring it off against these other arts...then thats what you need to do, even as dumb as that may sound. If Im not mistaken, isnt that what Gracie did? It really reminds me of how guns are tested. New guns are always compaired to older models(of course company tests are always using a tuned gun). And the similarities of guns to martial arts are impressive. Really all weapons. And the arts are as varried as the weapons.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

stonewall1350 said:


> I am guilty of looking for brand name myself so I know what you are talking about. I am one of those guys who likes to research everything before I start something or purchase something. I cant help it that I am frugal...maybe its the Scotch in me lol. But you are certainly right. In order for your art to get big you gotta advertise it. If that means squaring it off against these other arts...then thats what you need to do, even as dumb as that may sound. If Im not mistaken, isnt that what Gracie did? It really reminds me of how guns are tested. New guns are always compaired to older models(of course company tests are always using a tuned gun). And the similarities of guns to martial arts are impressive. Really all weapons. And the arts are as varried as the weapons.


 
Scotch in you? Are you drunk a lot then? Scotch is alcohol and only that, never anything else lol, you probably mean Scottish.


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## Steve (Aug 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Scotch in you? Are you drunk a lot then? Scotch is alcohol and only that, never anything else lol, you probably mean Scottish.


LOL.  I thought the exact same thing, Tez.  But I'm on painkillers right now, so I presumed I was just being loopy.  I thought that he was posting while intoxicated!


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Aug 17, 2009)

stonewall1350 said:


> I am guilty of looking for brand name myself so I know what you are talking about. I am one of those guys who likes to research everything before I start something or purchase something. I cant help it that I am frugal...maybe its the Scotch in me lol. But you are certainly right. In order for your art to get big you gotta advertise it. If that means squaring it off against these other arts...then thats what you need to do, even as dumb as that may sound. If Im not mistaken, isnt that what Gracie did? It really reminds me of how guns are tested. New guns are always compaired to older models(of course company tests are always using a tuned gun). And the similarities of guns to martial arts are impressive. Really all weapons. And the arts are as varried as the weapons.


 

 That was a smart marketing move on the part of the Gracies (They also dont show the tapes of them losing and they did a few) as well as starting the UFC (Where they intentially did not allow any real Judokas) and they showed to those who dont know how effective groundfighting can be.

 But if your art is more about defending yourself against street assults, you really cant do that. Unless their is a camera on you IF you are assulted.

 Style vs style duels are useless in that regard.


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 17, 2009)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> That was a smart marketing move on the part of the Gracies (They also dont show the tapes of them losing and they did a few) as well as starting the UFC (Where they intentially did not allow any real Judokas) and they showed to those who dont know how effective groundfighting can be.
> 
> But if your art is more about defending yourself against street assults, you really cant do that. Unless their is a camera on you IF you are assulted.
> 
> Style vs style duels are useless in that regard.


 
That is exactly right. It was brilliant marketing. But how has Krav become so big? You cant practice it traditionally by sparring either? I think alot of it also has to do with those marketing the art. If they come out and are dedicated to putting it out there all the time then it becomes big. Krav became so big because of the military training. Then people cross trained with Krav experts and then it gained a following. Of course people bash the style as unrealisic and such, but it IS effective. And the only way something can be proven to be effective is like you said, someone having the camera on them at all times. Lets face it....you cant practice a neck break by actually breaking the guys neck...its just not convenient to go find a new sparring partner after every practice. If you can find a full time ad agency willing to spread the word im sure the art could get big too. But you better have lots of coin lol.

And I meant scottish guys....thanks for that. But Scotch is also a tape....im suprised i didnt get see that 1 lol. I have been in a wierd state for the past few weeks tryin to move out and researching a place to go to Church and a place to start Jui Jitsu(Either traditional or Brazillian).


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2009)

> That was a smart marketing move on the part of the Gracies (They also dont show the tapes of them losing and they did a few) as well as starting the UFC (Where they intentially did not allow any real Judokas)


 
Weird. A few days ago I posted a response to the above providing a list of real judokas who competed in the early UFCs. Now those posts are missing. Was there a database glitch or did a mod delete my posts for some reason?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 25, 2009)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> I can't see how you can say MMA is not an art.
> 
> I am the first to respond when someone calls it the be all end all especially if they equate it with street combat but it can surely be called an art.
> 
> ...




cuz it isnt an art, it is a sport

it isnt even a sport, it is a hodge podge collection of pieces of other arts thrown together to be used in a sport setting.

there is no art in modern MMA 

*ANy time you do something that expresses yourself, that is art, you might not like someone's art but it is stiull an art.*

ok, can i express myself by taking a dump on the mat of your gym? and can i then call it "art"?

of course not

calling something art doesnt make it so. thats the problem with people these days, they just use words randomly with no concelpt of what they actually MEAN.

in the context of martial art, there is no art in mma

all of the above is my opinion, and nothing more.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 25, 2009)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Weird. A few days ago I posted a response to the above providing a list of real judokas who competed in the early UFCs. Now those posts are missing. Was there a database glitch or did a mod delete my posts for some reason?



There was a database crash. Bob announced it in the top most forum (admin announcements?). Everything from the last week or so is gone.


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## Darren (Oct 10, 2022)

What BJJ has taught me, been taking kenpo for 5 years in all that time in kenpo I never ever learned lessons that I learned after 3 BJJ classes!!!
1. I am a sissy!!
2. I am not tough!! 
3. Think I went totally insane even signing up for BJJ!!!!
But will say I do love it!!  Great cardio workout, builds muscles, and learning something different, builds stamina, more and more and more tummy crunch’s, more and more push ups!!!


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