# IMAF Schea site



## Datu Tim Hartman

Okay, 
    maybe I just don't see this. They have this on there statement.

*7. The IMAF has established international presence worldwide: Canada, Philippines, United Kingdom, Europe, South America, and Africa.*

I don't see UK, S. America & Africa listed any where on there site. No seminars or schools listed.

Am I missing something?

As far as Europe goes there is one one school listed in Germany and that is it.


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## dng1032

Hi Tim,

UK connection...David Hoffman's has the UK connection...i'm not sure about what schools and such...

Africa...Jamil has a school or schools in Tunisia which is considered part of North Africa

South America...don't know who that may be but I'm sure it's something being worked on...

Hope your doing well...congrats on your work at the Soke Council 

Later,
David


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## Dieter

Hi,



> UK connection...David Hoffman's has the UK connection...i'm not sure about what schools and such...



Datu David Hoffmann was in the UK is back in the states, but I don´t know if he still has some dojos there in the UK. I don´t really think so, but could be.



> Africa...Jamil has a school or schools in Tunisia which is considered part of North Africa



Jamil is connected with Delaney (also according to Delaney´s homepage). He does not have a school there. He went with 10 students from Hamburg to Tunesia for the seminay with the Professor there. They stayed in a hotel and there it was the teaching.,
They once went to a Karate school, but Jamil did not speak the language and there was a "language barrier".

These informations come from an article, written by Jamil and published in german magazines. 


Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by dng1032 _
> 
> *
> 
> Hope your doing well...congrats on your work at the Soke Council *



Thanks Dave.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Does Jamil count as an IMAF school? If you look at his links page you will see that he has BOTH IMAFs listed!

My next question why isn't Gaby listed on the site. I thought she was still with the IMAF Schea group?


:asian:


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## LabanB

Hi,

   David Hoffman had planned to set up Modern Arnis Uk, but nothing really happened. When David was starting to arrange the UK organisation, Remy became ill, David returned to the States.

   As far as I am aware, there are no certified schools in the UK at all, only people who trained with David and Remy when they were available.

Bill Lowery


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## BRAM

There are schools in in the UK for sure.. I have three clubs in UK..
and an associate club in Scotland...
one of the instructors just went to OZ to open a club down under...
I travel to UK to teach....
They do Combat Arnis/Modern Arnis..
the Combat part is without forms...use within military and "street applications"..
of course Modern Arnis involves forms...Espada y Daga, double tools etc...things not necessarily needed within the context of street combat..
Again corrupted by their instructor they use steel much more than they use sticks..and they use Guntings & Sinawali Appplications alot....Sinawali boxing..
www.cssdsc.co.uk

I realize this is not directly in keepng with the thread for I am not IMAF...but there are Modern Arnis clubs in UK....


be safe

Bram


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## Roland

I guess this is supposed to be about IMAF Inc. to be precise...


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Mike Chin is in Victoria BC.
Shishir is in Vancover BC.
:asian:


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## LabanB

Hi Bram,

  Thanks for the info. I'll check 'em out.

  Gee, I guess this Internet thing could be useful for getting us all together after all...;-)

Bill


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## Mao

Yes, Mike Chinn and Datu Inocalla are members of IMAF, inc. and Gaby Rolof as well.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *Gaby Rolof as well. *


Why is she not listed on the site?


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## Mao

She is. Under Board of directors and Masters of tapi tapi.


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## Bob Hubbard

Just checked... on the MOTT page shes on the far right in the picture.

:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

She is not listed in the school section, and she does run one.

Gaby, Brian Z., & Chuck Gauss (3 of the MOTTs) have no contact information on the site. I hind this strange.


:asian:


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## Brian Johns

Not only that but there is also a brief bio of her. She's also listed on the Board of Directors as well.


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## Brian Johns

<<<Gaby, Brian Z., & Chuck Gauss (3 of the MOTTs) have no contact information on the site. I hind this strange.>>

Incorrect. Go to "About IMAF" and click on "Contact IMAF" and you will find e-mail addresses for all of the Masters of Tapi Tapi associated with the IMAF, Inc.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Those are not direct e-mails. Those are addresses for the website. Are they being forwarded automatically or does some one have to forward them manually?

More importantly, *Why is her school not listed?*


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## Dan Anderson

Renegade,
Her school is not listed because she does not have a school proper.  She has a workshop group which gets together several times a week at a college facility.  I have taught there the couple of times I went to Germany.  She has no Dojo, for lack of a better term.

Dan Anderson

PS - Did you know that the song Louie Louie, when recorded by the Kingsmen in the 1960's, was suspected of having salacious content because of the slurring of the words?  Tis true.
:erg:


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## Brian Johns

<<<Those are not direct e-mails. Those are addresses for the website. Are they being forwarded automatically or does some one have to forward them manually?>>>

Yes they are automatically forwarded.


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## Roland

I thought he was the head of his own organization?

Now is this thread about IMAF INC?
IMAF?
or groups in general? 

It is getting kinda confusing!


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Shishir has jioned the IMAF.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *I thought he was the head of his own organization?*



I thought he was with Mr. Worden's WMAC as well as having an organization of his own.

Does he have a formal (i.e. titled) role within the IMAF-Schea group?


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Does he have a formal (i.e. titled) role within the IMAF-Schea group? *



I don't know about a title. It is listed on his and the IMAF site that Shishir is a member.


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## Mao

Datu Inocalla is indeed a member of  the IMAF, inc.. That would be the Dr. Shea one. It appears that there is alot of interest regarding the IMAF, inc. lately. Is this because we are the ones to watch? Oh my, will that begin the flames? I jest. We have alot to keep us busy running our own organization.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *It appears that there is alot of interest regarding the IMAF, inc. lately. Is this because we are the ones to watch? Oh my, will that begin the flames? *



Dan, you are correct.  You are the ones to watch, but not for the reason that you think.  

It is a question of accuracy of representation.  The following is one of the claims on the IMAF Shea website:

*7. The IMAF has established international presence worldwide: Canada, Philippines, United Kingdom, Europe, South America, and Africa. *

This claim has not been substantiated.  You claim that there is representation in all of those locations.  Let's go through the list.

Africa - No listings
Canada - Confirmed
Europe - Confirmed in Germany, but double listing with the UK being part of Europe.
Philippines - Confirmed
South America - No listings
United Kingdom - Inactive; sole representative returned to US.

Besides some of the countries listed not being confirmed, the true question is who established this presence?  I am willing to bet that the presence in these countries was established by Remy himself.  If this is the case, this isolated statement by the IMAF is inaccurate or, I may go as far as saying, fraudulent.  

I, myself, did not want to start a flame war.  There are many claims on the IMAF update that I have questions about.  This questioning is not meant as an attack, but I am seeking clarification.  No different than when  a potential student comes to your school and asks to see your teaching credentials.  Let's not turn this thread into a war, as opposed to a venue to share knowledge.  

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> I thought he was with Mr. Worden's WMAC as well as having an organization of his own.
> 
> Does he have a formal (i.e. titled) role within the IMAF-Schea group? *



Everyone,

What is SOOOOOO!!!!!!! Wrong with belonging to two or more organizations and even being the head of an organization yourself???? I do not see the problem.

But then again being in Japan with 6 hours of sleep in four days may make my perception askew. So, please let me know why is it sooo wrong for people to have friends or belong to other organizations ???

Thanks

Rich


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## Mao

Tim,
  Since you have deemed it prudent to "go so far as" to accuse the IMAF of lying, why don't you call Randi and get your answer yourself. Since you apparently don't have enough to keep you busy with your own org., and since you seem to be so insecure as to choose to be contentious with other organizations, try a little. Go farther and call Randi yourself. I am offended that you are so bent on trying to make the IMAF, inc. look bad. We don't lie, cheat or steal. You started this whole thread. I don't know why, but you did. There are alot of people teaching Modern Arnis under alot of different flags, including people who haven't been with the IMAF for many years. Some of them claim to have been close to Remy the whole time. Why don't you take issue with them. If you do, why don't you bring out everything they have said or done and put it on this forum. You have been bent on the IMAF issue for some time. I will "go so far as" to suggest that it is because you never resolved certain issues with Remy while he was still alive. I even tried to help you do this, as you know. Everyone would be better served if they/you kept yourself busy with your own group. Again I say, the IMAF, inc. does not lie, cheat or steal.  Shame on you for suggesting that. You know them better than that. I know you have had an issue with at least one of us, but that shouldn't give you cause to attack the entire group on the issues that you have. And you have attacked no matter how you put it. If you wanna go there, then game on. I personally would not.

               Dan McConnell
       IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
           Modern Arnis of Ohio


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *What is SOOOOOO!!!!!!! Wrong with belonging to two or more organizations and even being the head of an organization yourself???? I do not see the problem.*



No problem--certainly one can be in the WMAA and whatever other organizations one wishes, for example--but I inferred from what was said that the association was exclusive. I wasn't stating that it was a problem, but that the staus was unclear to me. This wasn't clearly stated so perhaps I am leaping to a conlcusion.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Dan,
     Let's do this by the numbers.

1. I asked a simple question about one of the claims on the IMAF site. Does the IMAF have reps in the 6 areas they claim?  Africa, South America & United Kingdom have not been substantiated. In addition the countries that are set up, probably were done by Remy himself! The statement on the IMAF site can be misleading or untrue. 

Your counter to my statement is "How dare you question us!" The statement is on the net. A public forum. When things are put out in public you need to be prepared to back up what you say. Instead of backing up your group by presenting facts that would shut me up, you play the holier than thou crap. That doesn't fly.  My question is still unanswered. Give me the facts, that is all I asked. When I wasn't answered I asked again.

2. Why should I bother asking Randi? He doesn't return e-mail or phone calls. Martial Talk has been around for over a year and he has never even said as much as a word here. My question could have been answered by anyone. Dan Anderson mailed him and didn't hear squat. Remember that? That was the time that you offered to help with the communication. It was good that you offered to help but, if Randi himself wouldn't give Dan an answer what makes you think you could have gotten one. This leads me to #3!

3. Why did you become the self appointed mouth-piece of the IMAF?  This is your tag on everything. Are you trying to become a player? Maybe the next MOTT? Don't know what your problem is and I don't care. 

I asked a question and this was it;

*Okay, 
maybe I just don't see this. They have this on their statement.

7. The IMAF has established international presence worldwide: Canada, Philippines, United Kingdom, Europe, South America, and Africa.

I don't see UK, S. America & Africa listed any where on their site. No seminars or schools listed.

Am I missing something?

As far as Europe goes there is one school listed in Germany and that is it.*

My question still stands. Can anyone answer this either way. If there are schools that will be listed in the next update or people are completing an instructors course then fine. All I'm asking is for some info.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
WMAA

P.S. Here is the smile.    :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *Since you apparently don't have enough to keep you busy with your own org., and since you seem to be so insecure as to choose to be contentious with other organizations, try a little.*



Let me explain something. As the leader of the WMAA it is my job to know what is going on in the Modern Arnis world. Martial Arts is what I do for a living, not a hobby. I've worked 15 years in retail and 8 years in the resturant busness. The thing I learned was that customer service comes first. 

I want to give people the best product in the market! To do that I must know what my competition is doing. Here are a few examples.

1. The WMAA was the first to have a written curriculum (This was established back during the Can-Am Chapter days). This makes it easier for our members to train for grading. This is on the net for all to benefit from.

2. We have made an investment in our Black Belt diplomas. The WMAA has invested over $2000 to make our diplomas better than any Modern Arnis one that I have seen.

3. We are the first instructors only camp this October in the Philly area.

These are only a few of the things that we have done. This is probably the reason that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis org (determined by number of schools) at this time. My job is to help our members and give them a valued service. This is not a hobby for me, it is what I do. I have devoted ALL my time to martial arts.

Maybe if some of the other groups dedicated more time to it's members they would have larger and better orgs.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
WMAA


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> 
> * Why did you become the self appointed mouth-piece of the IMAF? *



In fact I think we are fortunate that Mr. McConnell has volunteered to represent the IMAF-Schea group here.

As a Modern Arnis practitioner however I too expected a clearer statement from those apparently appointed by the Professor as to the issues of promotion authority, grandmastership, the Schea-Delaney split, etc. Does the IMAF recognize promotions in rank given by Mr. Hartman, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Worden, etc., for example? This is an aspect of *PAUL*'s question I find to be of great importance.


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## arnisador

Surely the WMAA is the most active group as measured by number of seminars camps, number of schools, growth rate, etc.


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## Bob Hubbard

Periodically I do a quick summary of each organization (US based) and have been posting the results in this forum.  I go solely by what is presented on the respective organizations web sites, and try to be as neutral as possible.  Quick tally on number of seminars, schools, and camps along with -main- contact info as I can find it.  I've also been trying to add in anything that stands out to me about the orgs when I remember. (history, milestones, upcoming events, etc)

I recently completed the quarterly -update- and both IMAFs, along with the WMAA, MARPPIO and WMAC were in the mix.
Search around in here, they should be close to the top if I didn't make em 'sticky' (cant remember at the moment)

:asian:


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## stick-i-bunz

7. The IMAF has established international presence worldwide: Canada, Philippines, United Kingdom, Europe, South America, and Africa

Mr. Hartman,

I guess they don't speak or comprehend the English language very well up there in Buffalo.  Does anything in that statement say that the IMAF, Inc. has an affiliated school in these locations?  Answer: no it doesn't.  Words mean things.  And "presence" is not a synonym for "school" in any thesaurus I can find.  My Merriam-Webster tells me an acceptable translation would be "bearing," which the IMAF would have estiblished in the above-listed sites simply by the organization having hosted a seminar or conducted students in the location in the past.  With the school year starting up, Barnes and Noble is offering a discount on dictionaries, may I suggest you invest in one? 

You allege that you don't want to start a flame war, but you and your drone Paul go out of your way to trash any other group.  I recall some drama in Michigan a few years back when you gave the Professor back your belt...a year later, you tested publicly for your 6th....Your actions are so contrived, it's like a radio station promotion.

Your whole crew needs to consider what a shameful display they put forth online.  From your continual self promotion as the highest tested practitioner, to whining Paul's cries of injustice that nobody in the Presas family called him when the Professor died,  it makes me sick.  

Sad part is, you actually have some skill at teaching along with a base of knowledge to share.  Its a shame your ego is so big that nobody else fits in the room with you to train.

If your people spent as much time training as the rest of the Modern Arnis world, they would have more useful and insightful information to post.  Immature actions such as yours will surely not win over arnis practioners who want to do just that- practice! Kudos to those organizations who are concentrating on training and not bickering. From my experience with the Professor, that's what he would have wanted.  

ps by the way....  looking at your picture from the awards banquet...   may I suggest the Atkins diet, I hear it does worlds for shedding away those unwanted pounds the last few years appears to have put on you.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Pretty brave hidding behind a screen name. That's okay. Knock yourself out.


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## Mao

Tim,
  Remy had said to me many times, right up to the end, "nevermind the barking dog, just do your work" in reference to YOU. I did not do this in the interest of staying neutral and giving YOU the benefit of the doubt. I will no longer do that, and I am done here. You get what you give.


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## Brian Johns

With regard to what stick-i-bunz said: "which the IMAF would have estiblished in the above-listed sites simply by the organization having hosted a seminar or conducted students in the location in the past"  I agree with completely. The mere fact of a seminar by a member of the organization taking place in those places named equates to a presence in those areas. It does not necessarily mean the existence or establishment of a school.

As to the remainder of stick-i-bunz's post ( I have an educated guess as to who this person is), sadly, I have to agree with. I have noted negative messages coming out from a certain geographical area of the country. No other group has engaged in this kind of negativity. For the most part, I've made a conscious decision not to respond to this and desire to focus more on the advancement of the IMAF, Inc., who I think is a group of very talented and honorable martial artists who are striving to preserve and propagate the art of Modern Arnis in a positive way. Such negativity sullies the memories of Professor Presas.

Sincerely,
Brian Johns
Member, Board of Directors of the IMAF, Inc.


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## Bob Hubbard

Buns, if youre going to come on here and sling insults, step up and have the courage to sign your name. Our tolerence for anonymous trolls has gone -very- low lately.


Thank you Brian for clarifying a point that was asked.

I have to disagree on 1 minor bit... the negativity really comes from everywhere..I've seen a large amount come from 3 locations. 

Stick-i-buns is only the latest. In the past I've seen alot of heat from the WNY area, The NE US (washington/oregon) and the South (Texas area).  Of course, given that 4 different organizations happen to be headquatered in these locations may be a coincidence.

There are dozens of questions out there about -each- organization.  I had several myself about the IMAF-Shea a while back that Dan was happy to answer. I still have several about JD but he never could take the time to answer.

The purpose of this forum is to give all MA orgs a chance to communicate. All members from all these orgs are welcome to sign up and get involved in the mix.  Don't like the negativity?  Then use this place in a positive way.  Kelly Worden, Jeff Delany, all of the Datus, renegades, etc are welcome here.  We are the #1 forum for Modern Arnis on the internet.  That they do not use it is their and our loss.

..and, before anyone says this is a WMAA forum...every US-based group was directly offered the chance to sponsor this forum..Both IMAFs, MARPPIO and the WMAC.  I got silence from 3 and a 'well let ya know' from 1.  I put off cashing a check from the WMAA for 4 months in order to allow the other groups a chance.  None took me up on the offer.  We're open for all of you.  I know that over 3000+ emails have been sent out to Arnis practitioners about this forum.  Get your members involved and maybe things will be more balanced in the future. I'd personally like to check out every organization as I've heard good things about all of them. I personally believe that everyone of you 'experience' folks can show me something different that will help make be a better MartialArtist.  

Brian says he wants to focus on promoting the IMAF.  I've seen him post seminar and camp info here, along with summaries.  Wheres everyone else from the IMAF?  Heck, get 4-5 vocal members on here after every camp, seminar or whatever and you can flood this place with positive IMAF messages in no time.

In the past we've had a lot of personal shots being taken....I think its time y'all started acting like the professionals you all claim to be. Leave the personal shot out of it. Your political issues are yours, I'm staying out of that fray.  

Tim and Paul asked several questions.  I'll ask a simple one - Will the IMAF be answering them?  Or is this thread best locked?

In closing, play nice, please?
Thank you.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> 
> *With regard to what stick-i-bunz said: "which the IMAF would have estiblished in the above-listed sites simply by the organization having hosted a seminar or conducted students in the location in the past"  I agree with completely. The mere fact of a seminar by a member of the organization taking place in those places named equates to a presence in those areas. It does not necessarily mean the existence or establishment of a school.*



Okay,
       lets look at what I wrote.



> *I don't see UK, S. America & Africa listed any where on their site. No seminars or schools listed.*



That reads to me SEMINARS or SCHOOLS. So if we rule out schools it only leaves seminars. Since Remy's death when was the IMAF Schea group active in the UK, S. America & Africa. 

I have not seen any activity in those areas in the last year. All I asked was for some verifacation on the statement.

In additon I don't see any announcments of students visiting or going to school in these areas. No activity at all.

For the record I feel the the IMAF had a good idea listing it's accomplishments. Although I feel showed pour taste anouncing them on the anneversary of Remy's death. The WMAA's anneversary is on Nov. 29th. Watch for our press release.

Tim Hartman


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## stick-i-bunz

Please permit me to apologize for any underhanded comments regarding Mr. Hartman's weight, literacy, or other inconsiderate aspect not pertaining to the issue at hand made by myself in my previous post. I readily admit to my own hypocrisy in complaining about shameful displays and bickering while allowing myself to participate as well.  My actions were extremely unprofessional, unappealing, and unjust in that regard.  I will not claim my impulsiveness as an acceptable excuse.

However, I will stick to the gist of my post in asserting that finger-pointing of other organizations and unsighted demands does nothing to further the art of Modern Arnis in the way the Professor would have promoted.  Backing, or bullying, any organization into a corner when they have repeatedly proved their desire to not participate in the crudeness of this forum is simply uncalled for. 

As a note, I do not speak for, nor am I any longer associated with, any Modern Arnis organization, neither the IMAF, the IMAF Inc, MARRIPO, nor any other.  I simply observe this forum to gain knowledge of possible organizations I might want to steer myself and TULANE UNIVERSITY to train with in the future. And I can tell you which organization I will not be promoting.  As I stated previously, it is a shame that a foolish personality would be allowed to interfere with the training of an art.


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## Bob Hubbard

Thank you very much for the apology.    My goal for this forum is to steer it more toward the sharing of technical info, events and a more 'friendly' tone that has been prevalent in the past.

I agree.  The finger pointing, bickering, etc does nothing to promote the art.  If anything, it only turns off potential students.

I said it before...wouldn't it be nice if we could all just -train- together?  Share what we know?

Regarding the issues raised, the questions can be answered, differed (I believe some previous ones were differed to Dr. Schea a while back), not answered (ignored, 'we wont reply to that in a public forum') etc.  Thats up to the politicians.  I'm just a geek. 


:asian:


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## Guro Harold

I am a member of the IMAF, INC.  I have signed my name and publically stated that I will not associate nor participate in any gathering that is negatively centered.  I am not a member of WMAA.

However, regardless of the issues that Datu Hartman, his peers or contemporaries have to resolve, can we at least show a little respect to him and to each other?

Please note again that Sr. Master Dan Anderson, Datu Tim Hartman, Bram Frank (Master of Arms), and Master Ray Dionaldo,  who also received some training with the Professor as well, all were representatives of the Filipino Martial Arts at the last Sokeship meeting Labor Day Weekend.

All were praised and received some type of honor or award.  A gentleman by the name of Al Sardinas wrote in his Eskrima-Digest review: "I did not catch all of Datu Hartman's demo but for what I saw show simplicity and accuracy. BTW, Datu Hartman is very humble when I addressed him as Datu, he told me to just call him Tim."  From my three previous occasions of meetings with Mr. Hartman, I can concur.

The point that I am making is that we all need each other to further the art of Modern Arnis.  No one has the sole or complete system that the Professor had within his head or life.  Right now instead of adhering to the concept that we should be friends and eat steak and lobster together, we are throwing those things at each other, plate included.

Please also give IMAF, INC a break, I am sure that in due time more information will be forthcoming regarding  the website.  I  am definitely not an insider, but it appears to me that Dr. Shea is not a wreckless man who personally makes unsubstantiated claims.

Finally, let's train hard together!!! Its time for all of us to hear and smell hundreds burnt rattan sticks cracking in a gym as a tribute to GM Presas.


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## Dieter

Hi,

Tim is writing about claims that the IMAF inc. is making. But he does make claims himself.



> 1. The WMAA was the first to have a written curriculum (This was established back during the Can-Am Chapter days). This makes it easier for our members to train for grading. This is on the net for all to benefit from.



I started to write examination curriculums back in 1983. In 1985 my students and I founded the German Arnis Association (Deutscher Arnis Verband e.V., DAV), which since then is concerned in spreading Modern Arnis.



> 2. We have made an investment in our Black Belt diplomas. The WMAA has invested over $2000 to make our diplomas better than any Modern Arnis one that I have seen.



This is a matter of taste. For me it looks like cover of a fantasy novel and not like a martial arts certificate. 



> 3. We are the first instructors only camp this October in the Philly area.



I started teaching seminars with brown/black belts only around 1986.
I started TEACHING Arnis in seminars in 1980.



> These are only a few of the things that we have done. This is probably the reason that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis org (determined by number of schools) at this time.



According to your website you have 28 schools listed.
We have over 50 here in Germany and most of the schools you have listed in Denmark are schools, that students of mine have started. I introduced Modern Arnis in Denmark in 1984.

You also once said, that you already have 19 black belts (a figure, that is about 1 year old). 
I have examined more that 100 Modern Arnis black belts from 1st Dan to 5th Dan in the last 20 years.


I could go write a lot more, but I don´t want to brag with "I have done this and that", but I am a little sick of the attitude:
"I am the biggest in the US, so I am the biggest worldwide".
I have no idea, if other organisations in other countries might be bigger than us, so I don´t claim this.

I simply want to make you aware, that there are people in other countries, that do their homework as well, even though you might not know this!

So if you are the biggest IN THE US, fine, congratulations to you, but then please write in the future also "in the US", because you don´t know what is going on in all the other countries in the world.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Datu Tim Hartman

This is what Im talking about. When some one makes a claim they must be prepared to back it up.

Dieter has given me the opportunity to show what Im talking about.  

My comments about the WMAA accomplishments in no way were meant to insult Dieter. Let me CLAIRIFY my statements.

The main problem is in the name of Modern Arnis. At this time there is only one. Before there was two. One taught by Remy, and a second taught by his brother Ernesto.  Most of the Europeans that do Modern Arnis do the Ernestos style were most of the Americans do Remys.

Eventually Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton. Many of the Europeans still call it Modern Arnis. This is where the problem begins. When we in America say Modern Arnis we think of the founder Remy Presas not his younger brother Ernesto. 

As I recall in a WEKAF magazine you join up with Remy in the mid 90s. When I think of you I think of an Ernesto guy first.  So when I read the following:



> I started to write examination curriculums back in 1983. In 1985 my students and I founded the German Arnis Association (Deutscher Arnis Verband e.V., DAV), which since then is concerned in spreading Modern Arnis.



Or  



> I started teaching seminars with brown/black belts only around 1986.
> I started TEACHING Arnis in seminars in 1980.



And



> According to your website you have 28 schools listed. We have over 50 here in Germany and most of the schools you have listed in Denmark are schools that students of mine have started. I introduced Modern Arnis in Denmark in 1984.



I think of a different system than what Im doing. In the future Ill probably put something to the extent that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis group in the world (Based on the teachings of Remy A. Presas). Hopefully this will eliminate any confusion in the future.


Now I feel that I have answered the questions. I dont feel offended. Dieter may not agree with what I wrote. And we have the right to disagree. This is how I expected to be answered, not attacked. If no one had the answer they could of wrote  Dont know let me check on that.  

We ALL need to be held accountable for what we say, write and do.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
WMAA


----------



## Dieter

> The main problem is in the name of Modern Arnis. At this time there is only one. Before there was two. One taught by Remy, and a second taught by his brother Ernesto. Most of the Europeans that do Modern Arnis do the Ernesto?s style were most of the Americans do Remy?s.



This used to be like that. But for  Remy examened the last 50 of our black belt exams and did not tell me "you are doing Ernestos style and not mine", I count myself to Remy´s Modern Arnis, no matter if you say we are or we are not. After the gradings he said on in the seminars, that he always was VERY happy with the quality of the gradings.

And Remy promoted me to DATU in 1996 for exeptional efforts in spreading Modern Arnis. And he should know.  



> Eventually Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton. Many of the Europeans still call it Modern Arnis.



This was years after we split.



> My comments about the WMAA accomplishments in no way were meant to insult Dieter



I did not take it as a personal insult. I would not expect that anyway. Nor was I trying to insult Tim. 
All I wanted to poit out is the fact, that the world is bigger than the US and I have the feeling that US americans sometimes tend to forget this a little.



> I think of a different system than what I?m doing. In the future I?ll probably put something to the extent that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis group in the world (Based on the teachings of Remy A. Presas). Hopefully this will eliminate any confusion in the future.



This is exactly the point: Do you know how big the group in Australia is, where Roland Dantes teaches? How about the Philippines? Don´t they belong to the world? Do you know how big they are? I don´t. Why don´t you say "USA" and we are in agreement?



> I think of a different system than what I?m doing.


This is interesting. And still, even though you think of a different system, you list 8 danish schools as WMAA schools (25 % of the WMAA), even though they base on my and Ernestos teaching and not on yours.

We call this " measuring with 2 different scales"
And we also do base our teaching to a large extend on the teaching of Remy. 


I don´t write all that to say that we are bigger. Thats not the point.  
As we are influenced by Ernesto, you are by your Balintawak teacher and Dr. Guy for example. We all have our individual way and Remy accepted this.

Granted, there are differences (I will demonstrate at the symposium) but I´ll bet there are differenced between Tim´s,  Dan´s and Kelly´s Modern Arnis as well. And you all learned under Remy.

Remy gave us the freedom not to be like robots, everybody like the other, so expect that there are differences.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

You see, that is how the communication is supposed to work.  I wrote something, Dieter questioned it, I explained my position, then he explained his.  No harm, no foul.  This is what I expected from the IMAF.  When I ask questions, I don't mix words.  When I try to be PC, sometimes the message doesn't come across right.  If anyone has questions about me or the WMAA, I am more than happy to answer them.  Although some things are not meant for public discussion.  If you make a claim on a public forum, then be prepared to answer it publically.

That being said, I think Dieter brings some good information for another potential thread...Modern Arnis in Europe.  Let's not stray too much from the topic on this thread.  One thing I will say in response to Dieter's comments, as far as the schools in Denmark go, when I did my first seminar over there, I was told that the Modern Arnis that I was teaching, was not what they learned.  They joined the WMAA to learn that system.  Being a member in our organization is different than being a certified instructor.  The trip that I am starting this weekend is to help the Danish learn more of the program.

I leave Sunday for a two-week European tour.  I will be back on the 30th.  I will not have access to a computer until I am in Sweden.  If anyone needs to talk to me before I leave, feel free to call or e-mail before Saturday.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
WMAA
:asian:


----------



## Dieter

> far as the schools in Denmark go, when I did my first seminar over there, I was told that the Modern Arnis that I was teaching, was not what they learned.



Since mid of the 90ies, the contact between Arnis Germany and Arnis Denmark was very loose. They still belong to Ernesto and me having had a split with him. Therfore many things of Remy did not come up to Denmark.

Anyway, of course I asked them how the seminar with you was, when you were there the last time and  the answer I got was: "It was good, but nothing really new." 
Of course they did not learn the same system than you teach, because we both have different backgrounds. 

But even the people that learned with Remy in the 80ies were learning different things than in the late 90ies. (I am not evaluating this statement). 

But I think, this is obvious.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Dieter, 
      let's move this topic to this thread.

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3651


----------



## Cruentus

Wow...I go away from my computer for a few days, and look what happends!  I will address one issue, since I was "name dropped" while I have time. I'll give my $0.02 later on other issues.

Stick-i-buns: 

You apoligized to Mr. Hartman, but not to me. So, I am going to put this as nicely as I can, only because I don't want to get banned, and Kaith already warned everyone to play nice. (Sorry Kaith, I don't know how else to say this to him) You are a coward. You hide behind your screen name and mud sling, and then you try to make it look like you don't have an agenda...like your some unbiased bystander who is just expressing your point of view. Your misrepresenting yourself, which appears to be condusive of the organization you support. You shame Tim Hartman and myself for fingerpointing, when you are doing the same to us; hypocritical, don't you think. I know that I am not perfect, and that as of lately I have been notorious for starting trouble. But my trouble causing isn't motivated soley by the desire to put someone down who has been honest from the beginning. The one thing that can not be said is that Mr. Hartman or myself is dishonest; and if that was true for other groups, this thread would have never started. Furthermore, at least I am not a coward. My name and contact information is on display at the WMAA site, and my e-mail address should be in my profile. I would happy to talk to anyone. If you want to talk to me, and if your going to be a gentleman (or lady if "stick i buns" is a female) as opposed to not being a little b**ch, then call me. And If you ever want to cross sticks, I'd be welcome to oblige.
We can play nice, or not...it's up to you.

And as to your "drone" comment, nothing could further from the truth. Tim Hartman doesn't tell me what to say or do, My actions are my own accord. As an Organization leader, he does in fact give me the freedom to speak my mind, which is one of the many reasons I am a proud member of the WMAA. 

And, by the way, it is a good thing you can hide behind a keyboard. If you were to ever call me a whiner in front of my face, I would probably be in jail for killing you. I never once "whined" about the "Presas family" not calling me. I did, however, discuss my feelings on the lack of communication by certian leaders the year before Remy died. Get your fact's straight before you go on the net and do someone elses dirty work. 

Respectfully, 
PAUL JANULIS
(248)722-1634


----------



## Cruentus

Datu Dieter and Datu Hartman have both demonstrated leadership on this thread, as well as this forum all together.  Everyone could learn from analyzing the exchange between these two professionals on this thread. They disagreed about something, but what happend? They talked it out. No one was trying to put the other down, or misrepresent themselves to make themselves look better. They were both professional, honest, and communicative.

I wish I could say the same about everyone else out there; and frankly, if everyone else was honest and communicative, not only would this thread have never started, but it would have never gotten to the point of me writing the letter I wrote and posting it (see "Letter to the IMAF, Inc." thread) to the organization currently in question. The lack of clarity in the answer to Renegades original question is the same lack of communication and misrepresentation that I have discussed in previous posts.


----------



## jaybacca72

and i thought us kenpo guys had alot.
btw if anyone wants to know how good Tim is at applying his skills at teaching or stick fighting ask his students in other countries ,and you have no idea stick i bunz about how we train,which is alot harder than most that's for sure.i have seen dieters group warming up for thier grading in germany in 99 and i have witnessed tests at the michigan camps,and this past wmma camp and test Tim had the standards were much higher than what remy himself expected.Tim did resolve the belt issues with remy at the camp,i told Professor fathers and sons sometimes fight but they always still care for each other then i ran . Remy would be proud of the way his art is spreading but not the back stabbing that has happened.
jay


----------



## dearnis.com

A few things now, we'll get some other issues later.
First, complements to Datus Dieter and Tim for keeping things professional.  Everyone should note that both men are skilled players who have contributed a great deal to te art.  we should also remember that both are also professional martial artists in  that they make a good portion of their living from the martial arts, specifically Modern Arnis.  Obvioulsy it is in the interest of both men to have their credentials and accomplishments accurately portrayed for public view. (an that, in essence, is what this thread is about).
Second, stick-i-bunz; you might take a lesson from the protocols on the WMAC forum; sign a real name if you are going to start flaming.  You don't sound like anyone I know personally, and since I was an instructor at Tulane Martial arts for nearly ten years, head instructor for five, remain  a technical advisor,  was the first person to introduce Modern Arnis to the Tulane curriculum (circa 1994), watched ALL of the current Modern Arnis black belts/brown belts at the club now earn their rank, and issued those same individuals their dan rankings under Mr. Dillman I have some strong feelings about throwing that program's name around.
Or if you are trolling for the other member of this board who is involved with Tulane you might get your history and facts right first.
Chad Dulin


----------



## mikejohnson

Good to hear from you Chad.

I am currently an instructor at the Tulane Martial Arts Club.  I have no idea who "sticky buns" is, but I can assure you they have no affiliation with Tulane.  There are only two of us here currently who have even met Datu Hartman, and I know neither of us would ever go by the name "sticky buns"... 

Our club trains in a number of styles, including Modern Arnis.  We are not formally affiliated with any Arnis organization, but I believe I speak for the club when I say that we respect all the leaders who are working to preserve and spead the Professor's art.  If any of you are vacationing in New Orleans, drop me a line.  We'd love to work out with you. 


Mike Johnson


----------



## arnisador

I was in New Orleans a year ago--wish I had known about the open invitation!


----------



## Dieter

> i have seen dieters group warming up for thier grading in germany in 99 and i have witnessed tests at the michigan camps,and this past wmma camp and test Tim had the standards were much higher than what remy himself expected.



I don´t really know what you want to say with thst because you ahve not seen the grading nor know the program.

Anyway, I never claimed that we are better than oters. I can´t because I don´t know the other gradings of other associations.

All I wanted to point out is, that the Professor, Roland Dantes and quite a few 5th, 4th and 3rd Dans of Modern Arnis from america confirmed, that we have a high level of MODERN ARNIS.
That does not mean, that others cannot have a high standart too.

I just oppose to the statement, that what we do is not Modern Arnis.

The Professor and the other mentioned individuals saw it and said it.



Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


----------



## David Hoffman

I would like to offer a little clarification for this thread. The information on the IMAF website is indeed accurate. It is a work in progress and is thus, not complete, but information is not intentionally left out. As the Federation continues to grow and organize, (and time permitting considering our web master Tiffany Tye has volunteered countless hours of hard work to date), more information will be made available, and photos and techniques will be archived for the future.

Specifically regarding the subject of this thread:

The website is not a complete listing of all instructors, members etc. At present the core and leadership are presented, appeals have been made for more information to be posted on the site and more instructors/schools to undertake direct affiliation and list their details. Some are great instructors but a little slow to react with data. The school listing in particular is a listing of active schools and not instructors. Thus various masters are not listed in this section unless they have submitted school/class information and requested a listing. The website is not in existence for the promotion of the Federation leadership, several of whom are available for seminars and instruction, and thus does not carry excess advertising for instructors/leaders not currently offering classes. I am also not listed in the school directory as my school is currently inactive. Similar is true of our Chairman, Dr. Schea teaches regular classes and is also not listed in the school member section not being a school owner. There has not yet been any listing/section on instructors, be they seminar instructors or either inactive, teaching at anothers school, or only teaching privately.

So please watch the site develop as more schools, events and instructors are listed. I believe the same is true for Gaby Roloff, she is not listed under schools as I believe she teaches privately and at seminars, She, as others, is listed were appropriate on the site, not gratuitously. 

The IMAF remains active in pioneering the UK. This obviously suffered a setback when our teacher got sick, as did the whole Martial Arts world. There are, nonetheless, ongoing efforts, and recent progress in pioneering the art in the UK as was Professor wished. I remain involved with this and have given additional training and support to my students and representative in the UK in the lasyear.

IMAF phil was always a chapter of IMAF and has remained in close cooperation and consultation during these last two difficult years. I believe it is good for the Federation if those ties are more formal and involved as has been recently announced. Samual Dulay (Bambit) followed Professors instructions in the Philippines and acted on his behalf honorably and effectively. Brother Datu Shishir is of course, one of the legends of Modern Arnis and has been very busy promoting Modern Arnis in The PI, Canada and beyond.


In short: a lack of information does not suggest a willful omission. Some information is either not pertinent or has not yet found its way on the site. If people use words like fraudulent and only point out criticisms that make an organization seem under attack they can expect that people will be indignant and react emotionally. We are not trial lawyers and do not have to examine our papers and words so in depth. It is also not fair to say Dr. Randi does not return emails or calls, he has always answered mine and I do not see why he would not also answer others. I hope that we can all seek the truth, our part in Professors legacy and advancement of our ambitions without getting ours or others feathers too ruffled. More importantly, I truly hope that we can honor our teachers memory by cooperating to preserve and promote the art by setting aside our petty egos and private agendas to better improve and share our collective knowledge.


----------



## Brian Johns

Thanks to Datu Hoffman for more clarification of some of the issues that have been discussed on this forum. Well said David !!!

Brian Johns
Member, IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors.


----------



## Mao

I echo Guro Johns' sentiment. Perhaps aonther IMAF voice will help.

          Guro Dan McConnell
       IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
         Modern Arnis of Ohio


----------



## Cruentus

Thank you Mr. Hoffman for your reply. I don't know if all of Renegades questions were answered, but I'm sure he'll clarify on here if they weren't. 

Hopefully you two will be able to dialog professionally and come to a conclusion on the issue if Mr. Hartman has more concerns. I do not think it was fair for Mr. Hartman to have to go through a barage of personal attacks (especially regarding his relationship with our late teacher) to achieve professionalism and clarity, but better late then never I guess.


:idunno:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> It should be noted that Datu Inocalla has established schools in South Africa as well as Brazil. It should further be noted that the IMAF Philippines has established minimum standards for their instructors to travel abroad and teach



This was all I was asking for. It was a shame that we had to do so far to get the information. For those who don't know me. When I ask a question, I don't mix words. I type the way I talk. I don't mix my words. This is nothing new. The Modern Arnis players who hung around Remy know who I am and how I am.

There are more questions I have that will have to wait. I leave Sunday for a two week tour threw Denmark and Sweden. I will have very little access to the net.

 Don't mistake some one who is being direct for being a prick. I know the difference. *When I'm pushed I can be the biggest prick you ever met!*



> Guro Dan McConnell, a member of the IMAF Board of Directors, will be traveling in the future to his ancestral homeland, Ireland to conduct Modern Arnis seminars.



I would also like to congradulate Dan on his up coming seminar. Good Luck.

:asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> * Perhaps aonther IMAF voice will help. *




I agree. The fact that so few IMAF Schea people take part on Martial Talk makes it hard to share information and get answers.


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by stick-i-bunz _
> 
> *Please permit me to apologize for any underhanded comments regarding Mr. Hartman's weight, literacy, or other inconsiderate aspect not pertaining to the issue at hand made by myself in my previous post. I readily admit to my own hypocrisy in complaining about shameful displays and bickering while allowing myself to participate as well.  My actions were extremely unprofessional, unappealing, and unjust in that regard.  I will not claim my impulsiveness as an acceptable excuse.
> 
> *



Very well stated and very proper.

Thanks for stepping up to see your own behavior and correcting it.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hi All,

I have to correct one impression I might have put forth and that is that Dr. Shea has not responded to emails I have sent.  He has sent me several long replies to queries I sent him.  

What I have never got were substantive replies to direct questions about what my role in IMAF, Inc. would be.

I queried him (and a number of the MOTT's) and got very generalized answers which, in effect, said nothing but "glad to have you aboard."

Those, to me, are "no answers."  It's like asking, "How's the weather today?" and getting, "Well, you know, it's the weather."

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> 
> *A few things now, we'll get some other issues later.
> First, complements to Datus Dieter and Tim for keeping things professional.  Everyone should note that both men are skilled players who have contributed a great deal to te art.  we should also remember that both are also professional martial artists in  that they make a good portion of their living from the martial arts, specifically Modern Arnis.  Obvioulsy it is in the interest of both men to have their credentials and accomplishments accurately portrayed for public view. (an that, in essence, is what this thread is about).
> Second, stick-i-bunz; you might take a lesson from the protocols on the WMAC forum; sign a real name if you are going to start flaming.  You don't sound like anyone I know personally, and since I was an instructor at Tulane Martial arts for nearly ten years, head instructor for five, remain  a technical advisor,  was the first person to introduce Modern Arnis to the Tulane curriculum (circa 1994), watched ALL of the current Modern Arnis black belts/brown belts at the club now earn their rank, and issued those same individuals their dan rankings under Mr. Dillman I have some strong feelings about throwing that program's name around.
> Or if you are trolling for the other member of this board who is involved with Tulane you might get your history and facts right first.
> Chad Dulin *



Well, at last, a new piece of information.  Chad, please tell us more about the program at Tulane.  Do you know of any other college/university programs that give academic credit for Modern Arnis instruction.  The program at Tulane and mine at Erie Community College are the only ones that I know of at this time.
Looking forward to hearing from you and anyone else who has the requested information; Thanks in advance.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Cruentus

I just wanted to comment on how much I admire Dr. Barber for integrating Modern Arnis into College programs that give academic credit.

I don't know if you started the program in Tulane yourself, Chad, but if you did then I admire you too!   

Since this Thread is more focused on the IMAF, Inc. Website, I would like to start a brand new thread on this subject;  I do find it really interesting.

I don't know how to attach the thread to here, but if someone could please do that for me I would appreciate it!

 
PAUL


----------



## dearnis.com

Off topic, but since the question was asked....
I became head instructor of Tulane's martial arts club in (I believe) 1993.  Shortly thereafter the primary curriculum switched from taekwon to ryukyu kempo.  At the advice of several of my seniors in DKI I tool advantage of the fact that Professor taught in the gulf south a great deal.  
Modern Arnis was initially integrated because I needed training partners in order to learn the art.
Brett Salafia came along at about this time; Brett is my senior in Modern Arnis, my junior in ryukyu kempo, and one of my best friends in or out of the martial arts.  When I left Brett took over the program, brought the Arnis portion to the next level, and hosted the first seminar with Professor in New Orleans.
The program was and remains, non-credit as Tulane has no phys ed requirements.


----------



## modarnis

Just a few points about Tulane's Program:

It functions under Club Sports, a non-credit recreational student activities program open to the university community.  It is funded through the student activities fee structure.  This allows for the purchase of equipment, travel expenses to seminars, or the hiring of guest instructors.  The club charges a nominal ($25/year) dues to help sustain a small endowment.

The program began as a TaeKwon Do Club, prior to Chad Dulin's functioniong as head instructor.  SInce that time, the club has been an ecclectic melting pot of martial arts, centered around a curriculum of basics for members without previous training.  During Chad's tenure, the club was heavily influenced by his studies in Ryu Kyu Kempo under George Dillman and Ed Lake.

Chad and I trained each other privately in our respective styles and the flavor of the club shifted towards Modern Arnis and Ryu Kyu Kempo, and the significant interplay between these styles in actual application.


In 1997, I took the helm of the club, shifting the focus toward a Modern Arnis curriculum.  I hosted seminars with Professor Presas in 1997 and 1998 in New Orleans drawing participants from all over the gulf south.  These were Professor's first visits to Louisiana.Guro Rob Alexander and I can claim to be the only students to have a private lesson with the Professor on a New Orleans riverboat, while travelling down the Missisippi

After my departure from New Orleans in 1998, Rob Alexander(Lakan), Doug Bock(Lakan), Denise LeBlanc Bock (Dayang) and Mike Johnson(Likah) continued to teach the Professor's art.     All of these instructors are dan ranked through Dillman Karate International as well.  They continue to influence the club as their time allows.

The club frequently invites Chad and I back as guest instructors.  We both enjoy training, eating and drinking New Orleans style as often as possible

Most recently the club's core curriculum has turned back toward TKD and also American Kenpo.  Jeff Dake, one of the current instructors has a kenpo lineage under a student of Professor Lee Lowery who is incidentally a Modern Arnis 6th degree.

 The club serves as a place for serious martial artists to train, exchange ideas and explore their own arts in the context of diversity.  Through the hard work of Chad, myself, and the other instructors named above, the Professor's notion of the Art Within Your Art lives on at Tulane.     

Respectfully,

Brett J. Salafia

IMAF, Inc.  Board of Directors

West Hartford Connecticut


----------



## Mao

Hi Brett,
 Nice to see you here! It's also good to hear a little of your m.a. history. Will you be at the Michigan camp this year?

                 warm regards,
                 Dan McConnell
        IMAF, inc. board of Directors
             Modern Arnis of Ohio


----------



## Brian Johns

<<<Will you be at the Michigan camp this year?>>>

Hey turd, did you mean "Chicago camp" ?  

:rofl: 

Brian Johns
IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors
Columbus, Ohio


----------



## Mao

Hey!! Did the Great and Mighty Whoopass just call me a turd??

Yeah, I meant the Chic. camp. Thank you for your correction.

See? Thats how we should communicate. I posted, Whoop corrected and I thanked him for it. Thats comminication.


----------



## Brian Johns




----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by modarnis _
> 
> *Just a few points about Tulane's Program:
> 
> It functions under Club Sports, a non-credit recreational student activities program open to the university community.  It is funded through the student activities fee structure.  This allows for the purchase of equipment, travel expenses to seminars, or the hiring of guest instructors.  The club charges a nominal ($25/year) dues to help sustain a small endowment.
> 
> The program began as a TaeKwon Do Club, prior to Chad Dulin's functioniong as head instructor.  SInce that time, the club has been an ecclectic melting pot of martial arts, centered around a curriculum of basics for members without previous training.  During Chad's tenure, the club was heavily influenced by his studies in Ryu Kyu Kempo under George Dillman and Ed Lake.
> 
> Chad and I trained each other privately in our respective styles and the flavor of the club shifted towards Modern Arnis and Ryu Kyu Kempo, and the significant interplay between these styles in actual application.
> 
> 
> In 1997, I took the helm of the club, shifting the focus toward a Modern Arnis curriculum.  I hosted seminars with Professor Presas in 1997 and 1998 in New Orleans drawing participants from all over the gulf south.  These were Professor's first visits to Louisiana.Guro Rob Alexander and I can claim to be the only students to have a private lesson with the Professor on a New Orleans riverboat, while travelling down the Missisippi
> 
> After my departure from New Orleans in 1998, Rob Alexander(Lakan), Doug Bock(Lakan), Denise LeBlanc Bock (Dayang) and Mike Johnson(Likah) continued to teach the Professor's art.     All of these instructors are dan ranked through Dillman Karate International as well.  They continue to influence the club as their time allows.
> 
> The club frequently invites Chad and I back as guest instructors.  We both enjoy training, eating and drinking New Orleans style as often as possible
> 
> Most recently the club's core curriculum has turned back toward TKD and also American Kenpo.  Jeff Dake, one of the current instructors has a kenpo lineage under a student of Professor Lee Lowery who is incidentally a Modern Arnis 6th degree.
> 
> The club serves as a place for serious martial artists to train, exchange ideas and explore their own arts in the context of diversity.  Through the hard work of Chad, myself, and the other instructors named above, the Professor's notion of the Art Within Your Art lives on at Tulane.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Brett J. Salafia
> 
> IMAF, Inc.  Board of Directors
> 
> West Hartford Connecticut *



Hello Brett,

I want to thank you and Chad for the info on the Tulane program.
This is a lot more of waht i wanted to see when I joined this group - good information exchanges.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> I agree. The fact that so few IMAF Schea people take part on Martial Talk makes it hard to share information and get answers. *



Well guys and girls, after all of the heat and smoke, I have to conclude that you folks have given yourselves the best example of why the proposed 2003 Symposium is a great idea.  Talking face to face, clearing up impressions and getting good, factual and correct information or finding contacts to get the correct information.  It happens best in face to face sessions.  Add to that the opportunity to train with other instructors; to see the wide variety of Modern Arnis stylists who trained with Professor Presas and to have the best of both worlds.  Segregating ourselves from one another and argueing over a "dead space" and a computer monitor is really unnecessary.

So let's talk about meeting in Buffalo, NY on July 11, 12 and 13.
It will be an awesome show!  It will be the highest level of talent assembled in one place for one event since the passing of the late GM, Remy A. Presas.  It would be so easy to stay away, but you would miss so much!

Shishir Inocalla
Bram Frank
Tom Bolden
Dan Anderson
Kelly Worden
Tim Hartman
Dieter Knuttel
David Ng
Demetrio Presas
Mary Ann Presas
Remy Presas, Jr.
Peter Vargas
Dawud Mohammad
Bruce Chiu
Dan McConnell

All of the above people have indicated that they want to present seminars at the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium.  It just isn't going to get too much better than this for the art.   Now it's your turn to help change a negative into a positive.  How many people want to attend this event?  Who's ready to make a tentative commitment  just as the instructors have done already?   Many people have spoken in discord, several have asked for unity, now who is ready to step forward to make that peace and unity a possible reality.  Remember, the goal of the Symposium is to bring us together to view the rich diversity of talent within Modern Arnis.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Dieter

> Shishir Inocalla
> Bram Frank
> Tom Bolden
> Dan Anderson
> Kelly Worden
> Tim Hartman
> Dieter Knuttel
> David Ng
> Demetrio Presas
> Mary Ann Presas
> Remy Presas, Jr.
> Peter Vargas
> Dawud Mohammad
> Bruce Chiu
> Dan McConnell



Hi Jerome,

this is an impressive list of instructors for the symposium 2003.
Please let me suggest the following:

Not everybody of the potentional intersted partitioners might know every instructor on the list. So I am think it would be a good idea, if everyone of these instructors sends a short profile, something like 6 lines or so, with the most importanf facts to his MA career. This would give everybody a good impression about the instructors.

You might also send a short questionaire that they shall answer like: when started in Martial arts, what arts, when Modern Arnis, who else they trained besides with the Professor, when did they train with the Professor (which Period of his teaching), which rank in Modern Anrtis or other styles, what other achievements they had like teaching seminars, publishing books, videos writing articles or anything else worth mentioning to get an idea about this person.
I am sure you know better than I what would be important to know about the instructors.

Then one could put it together and would have a great agenda about the "Who is Who" of the symposium. 


Just a thought.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

BTW, any ideas of the price for participants for the symposium yet?


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by stick-i-bunz _
> 
> *7. The IMAF has established international presence worldwide: Canada, Philippines, United Kingdom, Europe, South America, and Africa
> 
> Mr. Hartman,
> 
> I guess they don't speak or comprehend the English language very well up there in Buffalo.  Does anything in that statement say that the IMAF, Inc. has an affiliated school in these locations?  Answer: no it doesn't.  Words mean things.  And "presence" is not a synonym for "school" in any thesaurus I can find.  My Merriam-Webster tells me an acceptable translation would be "bearing," which the IMAF would have estiblished in the above-listed sites simply by the organization having hosted a seminar or conducted students in the location in the past.  With the school year starting up, Barnes and Noble is offering a discount on dictionaries, may I suggest you invest in one?
> 
> You allege that you don't want to start a flame war, but you and your drone Paul go out of your way to trash any other group.  I recall some drama in Michigan a few years back when you gave the Professor back your belt...a year later, you tested publicly for your 6th....Your actions are so contrived, it's like a radio station promotion.
> 
> Your whole crew needs to consider what a shameful display they put forth online.  From your continual self promotion as the highest tested practitioner, to whining Paul's cries of injustice that nobody in the Presas family called him when the Professor died,  it makes me sick.
> 
> Sad part is, you actually have some skill at teaching along with a base of knowledge to share.  Its a shame your ego is so big that nobody else fits in the room with you to train.
> 
> If your people spent as much time training as the rest of the Modern Arnis world, they would have more useful and insightful information to post.  Immature actions such as yours will surely not win over arnis practioners who want to do just that- practice! Kudos to those organizations who are concentrating on training and not bickering. From my experience with the Professor, that's what he would have wanted.
> 
> ps by the way....  looking at your picture from the awards banquet...   may I suggest the Atkins diet, I hear it does worlds for shedding away those unwanted pounds the last few years appears to have put on you. *



:soapbox: 
My Apologies if this has already been addressed in completion, but I would like to ask some Questions?

Since I have been to: Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy, Japan, and the Bahamas, besides all over North America.

Here is the Question!

Does this mean that since most of the time I did this travelling and I always practiced and worked out with friends or locals, Modern Arnis has a 'Presence' in all these locations?

For you see, not only do I have a dictionary, I * LOVE! * to discuss philosophy and logic.

So, by your own argument, there would be no location on this planet that does not have a Modern Arnis 'Presence'. And, if we can get one of the Astronauts to admit to knowing Modern Arnis and maybe practicing 'going with the Flow' while in space we could also include 'space and even the 'Moon' in this subject.

I am only taking your statement to its' natural conclusion if you follow the logic you (Stick-i-bunz) presented.

Now, the next step would be that one could argue that if anyone from any location 'viewed' a website - and practiced a move from a camp photo or from a technique demonstration, then that would imply by your logic that a 'Presence' has been established.

Now, Personally I do not think that Dr. Schea or anyone else from his organization, meant it this way. But you see, I thought out what would be the logical meaning. I agree that a seminar might be their meaning, but I would expect that Dr Schea and the rest of the leaders would expect further contact to continue their presence. I believe that the questions asked may have been presented in an 'unclear' tone, but if a discussion had occurred, such as this is a work in progress, the schools, or seminars are in the works but are not available to public knowledge at this time.



:soapbox: 

I apologize for droning on and on and on, but that is the nature of me, who loves to 'argue' (Please Look it up, Definition number one within Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary 1996(c) ) the finer points of philosophy.

Hmmm I am ranting again. Oh I how I just love to argue these points.

Have a nice day - and Respect to all

Rich
:asian:


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## Dan Anderson

Stick-i-bunz,
Gotta watch who you indiscriminately hammer.  It looks like you got hoisted on your own krispy cream by Rich.  

Rich,
What the hell does that mean at the end of your post?  Wnd when are you going to order a hard copy of the book?

Dan the author


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Stick-i-bunz,
> Gotta watch who you indiscriminately hammer.  It looks like you got hoisted on your own krispy cream by Rich.
> 
> Rich,
> What the hell does that mean at the end of your post?  Wnd when are you going to order a hard copy of the book?
> 
> Dan the author *



Dan,

I just got back in from Japan (* work Related, and I apologize to everyone I was supposed to call and see, but I worked 16-18 hours a day in a plant every day I was there. I had time to eat and shower if I did not sleep much.   *)

As for the book I just read in another thread that it was out and available for order at your website. I have not gotten there yet.  If not today the 13th then the 14th I will pull out the Credit Card and order away. 

Thank you sir.

Rich

EDIT:
The song in my signature, is that *'In The End'* all the arguing and all the bickering and all the name calling does not matter. It also means, no matter how hard you try to hold it all together and/or ignore a problem/person it does to matter, what will be will be. No matter what you do it will be wrong for someone. It will be ok for others and good for some others yet.

So, if you do what you the individual has to do, then *'In The End'* you will know you did what you had to do, no matter if it changes anything.

e.g. 1) Paul's search for an answer to a question that lead to a 'heated' discussion. In the real big picture did it matter?? To Paul yes, but to me and others maybe not? Those that had read the answer elsewhere saw the answer while Paul was still searching. Someone directed Paul to an answer. It helped get Paul an Answer, but did it change how Paul asks questions? Did it change how the Dr. Schea IMAF Inc Organization responds?

e.g. 2) MAO had answered Paul's question elsewhere, but not directly here. Maybe he assumed he had answered it?? He knew he had ( somewhere ). Also, he may have not seen the reason for the question from Paul. 

Yet, in the end does it really matter. Paul will do what Paul does and MAO will do what MAO does. I believe that maybe communication has improved for now, but I could foresee the same discourse occurring again on another subject.

These two examples from different points of view are mentioned, not to be insulting to the parties, but as a recent argument (look it up) that took place. Yes, An answer has been given and Paul is happier, but I still contend that Paul will do what Paul's does and MAO will do What MAO does.

Just my opinion right now in life.
repjr :asian:


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## Mao

I really like that song. Your post made perfect sense to me. My major in collidge was psychology, so maybe we think a little alike at times (you mentioned you liked to talk philosphy and stuff). I understood your logic.  Thanks.

 Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> 
> *I really like that song. Your post made perfect sense to me. My major in collidge was psychology, so maybe we think a little alike at times (you mentioned you liked to talk philosphy and stuff). I understood your logic.  Thanks.
> 
> Guro Dan McConnell
> IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
> Modern Arnis of Ohio *



MAO,

Thanks, for the positive feedback, now to get some from that lazy PAUL :rofl: who is still moving and unpacking. Just Kidding PAUL. I thought I would bust your chops a little since, if anyone has every meet PAUL they would now he is anything but LAZY.
I think Hyper would be a better term.  

Look, I got another Jab in while backing out of the first one.

See everyone around

Rich


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## Dan Anderson

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> An answer has been given and Paul is happier, but I still contend that Paul will do what Paul's does and MAO will do What MAO does.
> 
> 
> repjr :asian: *



Tis true, tis tue, tis truely true.  We are a nation of individuals, aren't we.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:asian:


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## DoctorB

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> 
> *
> 
> Well guys and girls, after all of the heat and smoke, I have to conclude that you folks have given yourselves the best example of why the proposed 2003 Symposium is a great idea.  Talking face to face, clearing up impressions and getting good, factual and correct information or finding contacts to get the correct information.  It happens best in face to face sessions.  Add to that the opportunity to train with other instructors; to see the wide variety of Modern Arnis stylists who trained with Professor Presas and to have the best of both worlds.  Segregating ourselves from one another and argueing over a "dead space" and a computer monitor is really unnecessary.
> 
> *



Since no one seems ready to acknowledge that are some very clear differences between various schools of thought regarding
Modern Arnis AND each of those schools of thought contain some
"truths" within the art, I am again suggestiong that you just might want to attend the upcming Gunting Knife Seminar with Master Bram Frank.  Master Frank, will be one of the presenters at the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium.  Some of you have absolutely no knowledge about or experience with the Gunting Knife, so attending the seminar on the 29th, will give you a big step up on some of the people who will be attending next year.

I have been reviewing Guro Bram Frank's manuscript, 
"Conceptual Modern Arnis", that is at Paldin Press, undergoing the final editing process for publication and I came across the following statement that I thought might be of interest to some of the people on this forum.  The quote is taken from Chapter 19: "The truth in Using Sticks: steel hidden within".

"In Modern Arnis translation is everything.  One needs to understand where Modern Arnis came from and where it's going.  Modern Arnis embodies the conceptual core of Filipino fighting arts.  The understanding of the conceptual usage of those arts is the goal of those that study the art.  It is the art within the art.  The soul of Filipino fighting is the blade.  The soul of Modern Arnis is the blade as well.  With that thought in mind I designed a Modern Arnis tactical folding knife made by SPYDERCO: The GUNTING.  The GUNTING is the only tactical folder designed to do translations from empty hand all the way to cutting and it opens within the flow of usage.  (It is) the ONLY kinetic opening knife in the world and it was designed to use the concepts of Modern Arnis." 

Given this very strong statement by Guro Frank, I was wondering what others think of his contentions that that Filipino Martial Arts and Modern Arnis as one of those arts is Blade Oriented?  I have read a number of posts by Guro Frank, in which he contends that some of the practices and training drills taught by the late Professor Presas, would be counter-productive to use, if a blade were being used by an opponent.  

He has invited Modern Arnis instructors, particularly those of recent years to train with him and he would demonstrate how and why some of the training drills would result in injury, if not death if the student followed precisely the drill format as taught by Professor.

If he is correct, then some adjustments need to be made and the conceptualization process needs to be implimented by many Modern Arnis practictioners.  There are certinaly going to be some people in Modern arnis who are in disagreement with Guro Frank's contentions.  But ultimately the proof is in the application of the techniques, in real time training with and without the knife or a larger blade.

The GUNTING is a unique knife design and it is the ONLY kinetic opening folding knife on the market today.  On Sunday, September 29, at the International Schools of Self Defense, 5901 South Transit Road, Lockport NY, between 2 & 5pm, Guro Frank will be teaching a seminar on the GUNTING KNIFE.  The seminar fee is $55 in advance (before September 25) and $70 at the door.  Write me for more information, if you are interested in attending. 

Your comments and observations would be greatly appriciated.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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