# New Lineage Question



## wingchun100 (Jan 31, 2017)

The first Wing Chun school I attended was in the Ip Ching lineage. When I was there, I learned all 3 empty hand forms and the wooden dummy form.

Then I switched to the Leung Sheung lineage. As of this writing, the Sifu in this lineage has me working on Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu. He told me I should also practice on the dummy...not just the form, but also just improvised play. I was about to start playing the dummy form the other day when it hit me: the Leung Sheung lineage probably plays the dummy much differently than what I have been doing, and I haven't been shown that yet.

So then the question came to me: should I keep practicing Biu Jee and Mook Jong the way I already know? Should I hold off on it since, in this Sifu's eyes, I am now at the "Chum Kiu" level? Or would it be better to practice them so I can at least keep the forms fresh in my mind?

I reached out to Sifu about this question, and I am eager to hear his answer. However, I was just curious what any of the instructors here might advise a lineage transplant student to do. Obviously in my case, the only answer that matters is what my Sifu tells me.

Still, sometimes I like to pose these situations to others to inspire conversation.


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## wckf92 (Jan 31, 2017)

My .02 is to not practice the stuff from your previously lineage. Too much divergence out there in WC Land...


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## geezer (Jan 31, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> . As of this writing, the Sifu in this lineage has me working on Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu. He told me I should also practice on the dummy...not just the form, but also just improvised play....
> ...So then the question came to me: should I keep practicing Biu Jee and Mook Jong the way I already know?



If your sifu is busy, talk to your si-hings. Tell them that Sifu told you to play on the dummy, ask them to share some good drills appropriate for your level. Then try to do it with the kind of energy and "flavor" of your current lineage. Since your sifu told you to go ahead, that's what you should do, right?


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## wingchun100 (Jan 31, 2017)

geezer said:


> If your sifu is busy, talk to your si-hings. Tell them that Sifu told you to play on the dummy, ask them to share some good drills appropriate for your level. Then try to do it with the kind of energy and "flavor" of your current lineage. Since your sifu told you to go ahead, that's what you should do, right?


 
Well, that is what I am unclear on, and why I reached out to him. (He is usually pretty quick to respond; I just posted this while I was waiting for an answer.) I want to make sure he meant I can go ahead with the form. If he meant just do improvised stuff, then I will hold off on the form itself.

My Sihings are much harder to reach than my Sifu. Also, not for nothing, but I am not sure if any of them even learned the dummy form. I can certainly try reaching out though.


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## KPM (Jan 31, 2017)

Have you been taught various drills and such to practice outside of just doing the forms?  Think about how those could be done on the dummy using the same mechanics from Leung Sheung WC.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 31, 2017)

Got my answer by the way. Sifu said to practice whatever I like. The epiphany is easily seeing and proving the structural worth of the way you do the forms. Then, in what I think is the most important part of the response, he said, "Your level is determined by understanding and application."


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> The first Wing Chun school I attended was in the Ip Ching lineage. When I was there, I learned all 3 empty hand forms and the wooden dummy form.
> 
> Then I switched to the Leung Sheung lineage. As of this writing, the Sifu in this lineage has me working on Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu. He told me I should also practice on the dummy...not just the form, but also just improvised play. I was about to start playing the dummy form the other day when it hit me: the Leung Sheung lineage probably plays the dummy much differently than what I have been doing, and I haven't been shown that yet.
> 
> ...


I would just treat them as separate arts, for now. I have a student who has a background in Shotokan Karate. He sometimes does his Shotokan kata as part of his warm-up, instead of the ones I teach. I don't think it does any harm. There may be more of an issue in your case, since they may be more closely connected, but I don't think practicing can do any real harm before you learn the new version.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

Just a random comment here. I don't study Wing Chun, but I very much want a Wing Chun dummy. I'm not sure how useful it would be, but I still want it. No place to put it, but I still want it.


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## Juany118 (Jan 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a random comment here. I don't study Wing Chun, but I very much want a Wing Chun dummy. I'm not sure how useful it would be, but I still want it. No place to put it, but I still want it.



FYI, They do have free standing ones that take up about as much space as a free standing heavy bag.  When I get the time, and money, I was going to make one actually.  It won't be "traditional" because the body will be PVC (not schedule 40, I have a hook up that can get me the stuff they use for underground sewer lines.)  The money will come in on the arms.  There are directions on the web for making one with PVC arms but I want "real" arms and will be buying them.


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## KPM (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a random comment here. I don't study Wing Chun, but I very much want a Wing Chun dummy. I'm not sure how useful it would be, but I still want it. No place to put it, but I still want it.



This is where I got mine:
Best Wooden Dummy : Portable Wooden Dummies : Martial Arts Training Gear : Bruce Lee : Spinning Dummy : TheWarrior.com


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> FYI, They do have free standing ones that take up about as much space as a free standing heavy bag.  When I get the time, and money, I was going to make one actually.  It won't be "traditional" because the body will be PVC (not schedule 40, I have a hook up that can get me the stuff they use for underground sewer lines.)  The money will come in on the arms.  There are directions on the web for making one with PVC arms but I want "real" arms and will be buying them.


I've looked at a few, and thought I'd like to build the whole thing. It would take a ton of work, so I probably won't until I retire, if I ever do. But it has always seemed like a great woodworking project, very different from any I've done. No fine joinery, and much heavier lumber to work with.

(When I read your post, I hear the "I have a hook up" part spoken in the voice of Joe Jr. from "While You Were Sleeping".)


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

KPM said:


> This is where I got mine:
> Best Wooden Dummy : Portable Wooden Dummies : Martial Arts Training Gear : Bruce Lee : Spinning Dummy : TheWarrior.com


You, sir, are enabling.

(They need a website upgrade. It was many clicks before I found the page with all the models shown.)


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You, sir, are enabling.
> 
> (They need a website upgrade. It was many clicks before I found the page with all the models shown.)



On both points.  Lol.

That said if I ever say "screw it don't have the time" to making one, probably look here.  I wish I could justify a full wood one but... Yeah wife would kill me.

Home


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

In my opinion, practicing form makes you good at practicing form. I never believed that the wooden dummy was a necessary part of Wing Chun training, or for that matter, any other art. If you want to practice on it do so. What you practice is secondary to the practicality of any skill obtained from the practice. Sparring will always be the most practical exercise.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> In my opinion, practicing form makes you good at practicing form. I never believed that the wooden dummy was a necessary part of Wing Chun training, or for that matter, any other art. If you want to practice on it do so. What you practice is secondary to the practicality of any skill obtained from the practice. Sparring will always be the most practical exercise.



I look at it also as a tool to assist, a bit, with shadow boxing (practicing proper range to target etc) and tbh conditioning of the limbs.  I can only make at best, 2 classes a week atm, so I tend to do a lot of work at home.


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## wckf92 (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a random comment here. I don't study Wing Chun, but I very much want a Wing Chun dummy. I'm not sure how useful it would be, but I still want it. No place to put it, but I still want it.



Have you ever used one?


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Have you ever used one?


They make cool looking coat racks


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Have you ever used one?


Nope. I have no reason to believe it would be useful, given my lack of experience. Still want the danged thing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> They make cool looking coat racks


See, now I have someplace to put it - right next to the door!


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## KPM (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> In my opinion, practicing form makes you good at practicing form. I never believed that the wooden dummy was a necessary part of Wing Chun training, or for that matter, any other art. If you want to practice on it do so. What you practice is secondary to the practicality of any skill obtained from the practice. Sparring will always be the most practical exercise.



I agree.  But I have found that a great many of both the JKD drills and TWC drills can be practiced directly on the dummy.  This is very helpful when you don't have any other partner around!


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## wingchun100 (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I would just treat them as separate arts, for now. I have a student who has a background in Shotokan Karate. He sometimes does his Shotokan kata as part of his warm-up, instead of the ones I teach. I don't think it does any harm. There may be more of an issue in your case, since they may be more closely connected, but I don't think practicing can do any real harm before you learn the new version.



They are more or less the same moves. However, the Leung Sheung lineage tends to do more "small circle" moves, AKA...smaller moves. LOL


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## wingchun100 (Feb 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> FYI, They do have free standing ones that take up about as much space as a free standing heavy bag.  When I get the time, and money, I was going to make one actually.  It won't be "traditional" because the body will be PVC (not schedule 40, I have a hook up that can get me the stuff they use for underground sewer lines.)  The money will come in on the arms.  There are directions on the web for making one with PVC arms but I want "real" arms and will be buying them.



I have one that is in progress as well. Maybe I will post myself doing the form in the Members in Motion section.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 1, 2017)

KPM said:


> I agree.  But I have found that a great many of both the JKD drills and TWC drills can be practiced directly on the dummy.  This is very helpful when you don't have any other partner around!



Yes. My plan was to do five 3-minute rounds of just improvised play on the dummy. I would treat it kind of like shadow boxing, but with a dummy instead of empty air. It would be a great way to gauge my entry skills, to tell if I am stepping in close enough to land techniques properly.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

KPM said:


> I agree.  But I have found that a great many of both the JKD drills and TWC drills can be practiced directly on the dummy.  This is very helpful when you don't have any other partner around!


Personally I prefer a heavy bag. Once you understand the dummy the heavy bag puts things in a much more realistic and dynamic perspective, IMO. I prefer solo practice with a moving target as compared to a static one, but then again I have weird ideas concerning Wing Chun, so take what I say with a grain of salt


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Personally I prefer a heavy bag. Once you understand the dummy the heavy bag puts things in a much more realistic and dynamic perspective, IMO. I prefer solo practice with a moving target as compared to a static one, but then again I have weird ideas concerning Wing Chun, so take what I say with a grain of salt


Not to weird, or maybe I am weird too because I have an attachment of the "arms" of Mook Jong en route finally for my heavybag as a stop gap.


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## KPM (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Personally I prefer a heavy bag. Once you understand the dummy the heavy bag puts things in a much more realistic and dynamic perspective, IMO. I prefer solo practice with a moving target as compared to a static one, but then again I have weird ideas concerning Wing Chun, so take what I say with a grain of salt



Heavy bag is nice, and I do that too when I can.  But the dummy has arms.  So you can practice entries and trapping on the dummy that you can't do on a heavy bag.  And I actually don't have a place to hang a heavy bag at my house.  I have B.O.B. as my other training partner.  Me, dummy, and B.O.B.   We're quite a trio!


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

KPM said:


> Heavy bag is nice, and I do that too when I can.  But the dummy has arms.  So you can practice entries and trapping on the dummy that you can't do on a heavy bag.  And I actually don't have a place to hang a heavy bag at my house.  I have B.O.B. as my other training partner.  Me, dummy, and B.O.B.   We're quite a trio!



Heavy bags have no arms?

WING CHUN ATTACHMATE 


And while it's in the basement I have room for one of those "free stands" for a heavy bag (I swap my homemade tire dummy [weapon work] and heavy bag back and forth, had to Jury rig a system to do it too since I have a 100lbs heavy bag and I am a skinny SOB lol.)

I am thinking the arms will make for good dynamic drilling.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Personally I prefer a heavy bag. Once you understand the dummy the heavy bag puts things in a much more realistic and dynamic perspective, IMO. I prefer solo practice with a moving target as compared to a static one, but then again I have weird ideas concerning Wing Chun, so take what I say with a grain of salt


Joy, 

How is it you can disagree on the fact that I prefer a heavy bag over the dummy? You know nothing about how I utilize my branch of Wing Chun. To presume I have the same inclinations about the art (in general), let alone my branch, as you is quite presumptuous.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Joy,
> 
> How is it you can disagree on the fact that I prefer a heavy bag over the dummy? You know nothing about how I utilize my branch of Wing Chun. To presume I have the same inclinations about the art (in general), let alone my branch, as you is quite presumptuous.



Joy can correct me if I am wrong but they serve two different purposes.  I will still train on a dummy and get one for a specific reason...Even if wall mounted the dummy is more resistant, it thus tests and thus trains my structure more strictly.  In doing so when I face something more "flexible" I will be stronger.  Just my take.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Joy,
> 
> How is it you can disagree on the fact that I prefer a heavy bag over the dummy? You know nothing about how I utilize my branch of Wing Chun. To presume I have the same inclinations about the art (in general), let alone my branch, as you is quite presumptuous.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait a minute I don't question your right to use a heavy bag. Have used them myself, But a bag and a jong conventional  usage involves different body mechanics. Conventional is the key word.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wait a minute I don't question your right to use a heavy bag. Have used them myself, But a bag and a jong conventional  usage involves different body mechanics. Conventional is the key word.


I never stated that they had the same use. I stated I prefer the heavy bag, because it's not a static target. I personally get more out of it than I do the dummy, which I feel can be counter productive to actual two man work & sparring. That's all, my belief, not applicable to how others may perceive it.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 1, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I never stated that they had the same use. I stated I prefer the heavy bag, because it's not a static target. I personally get more out of it than I do the dummy, which I feel can be counter productive to actual two man work & sparring. That's all, my belief, not applicable to how others may perceive it.


===============================
no problem with differences in pov-s


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## Nobody Important (Feb 1, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> ===============================
> no problem with differences in pov-s


agreed, I just wanted to make sure my position was clearly understood & not misinterpreted as something applicable to everyone.


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## anerlich (Feb 8, 2017)

He told you to practice on the dummy. So do it. Why do you need to overthink this, and second guess his instruction?


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## wingchun100 (Feb 8, 2017)

anerlich said:


> He told you to practice on the dummy. So do it. Why do you need to overthink this, and second guess his instruction?


 
I guess some of us don't understand the idea of how one can develop certain habits, which may be all right for one lineage but then considered "bad" habits in another. It's all good though.


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## anerlich (Feb 8, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I guess some of us don't understand the idea of how one can develop certain habits, which may be all right for one lineage but then considered "bad" habits in another. It's all good though.



I guess others of us don't understand, that it might be reasonable to assume that if you are going to an instructor more knowledgeable than you, that if you understand the thing about those habits,  then he probably understands that too, and factored it into his instructions to you.

If you have more insight into WC and training than he, why study with him?

And why ask us internet randoms about it rather than ask him?

Like you say, it's all good though.


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## wingerjim (Feb 17, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Got my answer by the way. Sifu said to practice whatever I like. The epiphany is easily seeing and proving the structural worth of the way you do the forms. Then, in what I think is the most important part of the response, he said, "Your level is determined by understanding and application."


Just curious how much they differ from one lineage to another?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Got my answer by the way. Sifu said to practice whatever I like. The epiphany is easily seeing and proving the structural worth of the way you do the forms. Then, in what I think is the most important part of the response, he said, "Your level is determined by understanding and application."



Interesting thing is, I know your Shifu and after I read the first post I thought, he won't care, practice what you want


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## DanT (Feb 17, 2017)

I was in a similar situation:

-I trained for a few years under one sifu, and then moved schools to where I am now.
-I've now trained for many years under my current sifu and I can tell you that:

-if it's the same style, 95% of what you learned before will be somewhat transferable to your new teacher.

-you will be able to move through the curriculum faster because of your previous knowledge.

-eventually what you learned before will transform into what you are going to do now.

-I know it's hard, believe me, having to go backwards is frustrating, but give it time, work on only slt and ck for now, and within no time you'll start bj and myj. My personal advice is just do slt and ck, and the other forms will come soon.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

anerlich said:


> He told you to practice on the dummy. So do it. Why do you need to overthink this, and second guess his instruction?


It's a personality trait (more specifically, a behavioral trait). Some folks like to do their analysis and get support for their decisions - it's what works for their brain. Others of us do less of that, and that's what works for our brains.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 21, 2017)

DanT said:


> I was in a similar situation:
> 
> -I trained for a few years under one sifu, and then moved schools to where I am now.
> -I've now trained for many years under my current sifu and I can tell you that:
> ...



Most of the Biu Jee I have seen in the Leung Sheung lineage is the same in terms of order, but the moves are done just a little different. As for the Mook Jong, there are 2-3 sections past what I learned as the END of the form in the Ip Ching lineage.


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## Marnetmar (Feb 22, 2017)

I know I'm biased but I think the Leung Sheung form makes for better training than other YM Lineage forms.

From what I can gather, later versions of the form don't repeat sides as much and the way a lot of them move around the dummy and use the moves (like the weird flinging arm-only bong sau in section 1 and doing kwan sau side-to-side like it's an arm conditioning exercise) doesn't make much sense to me. Although to be fair, section 9 of our form is pretty damn weird.


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