# Cancelling Zones



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

What is required for *true* zone cancelling?  

If I kick a man in the groin (Ideal phase), and he bends over, have
I *cancelled* his height, or have I merely *dropped* his height?  

What constitutes a true zone cancel??


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What is required for true zone cancelling?
> 
> If I kick a man in the groin (Ideal phase), and he bends over, have
> ...



I will take a stab at it.  

Basically striking, or checking an opponent in a manner where they cannot kick, punch, block, etc. you for a period of time desired.  
If you kick an opponent in the groin you actually could say you both Check and Drop his height.  You check his height in the manner that he won't be able to kick you or probably even move his legs, except to fall.  And you drop his height by him bending over (probably) due to the kick.  This is just a basic explanation.  I am sure it can be tore apart, and broke down ALOT more.  :asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What is required for true zone cancelling?
> 
> If I kick a man in the groin (Ideal phase), and he bends over, have
> ...



Unfortunately you've done neither, you've simply brought a target closer to weapon, if that was your intent.     To drop or cancel height  would require the use of weight on the legs, to add, subtract, or equalize in a broader base.    A groin kick will probably not have that effect.   However, by bending him over in the front, you have temporarily disabled the ability to kick to the front, but not to the rear, and the opposite if you bend them back, the ability to kick would be to the front and not rear but it hasn't cancelled the ability to kick in a true height cancellation.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Unfortunately you've done neither, you've simply brought a target closer to weapon, if that was your intent.     To drop or cancel height  would require the use of weight on the legs, to add, subtract, or equalize in a broader base.    A groin kick will probably not have that effect.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



I guess it depends on how hard you kick them.  LOL!


----------



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Unfortunately you've done neither, you've simply brought a target closer to weapon, if that was your intent.     To drop or cancel height  would require the use of weight on the legs, to add, subtract, or equalize in a broader base.    A groin kick will probably not have that effect.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Okay, then let me put it another way.  If someone does, say a 
lapel grab, and I pin that hand as I step forward .. he can't back 
away from me, but he can close in on me ... what is it that I've 
done (in kenpo terminology if you can) to his depth zone?


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Okay, then let me put it another way.  If someone does, say a
> lapel grab, and I pin that hand as I step forward .. he can't back
> away from me, but he can close in on me ... what is it that I've
> done (in kenpo terminology if you can) to his depth zone? *



I do have to say...this IS candy for the brain.  Great Questions Kirk!


----------



## LoneWolfandCub (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Okay, then let me put it another way.  If someone does, say a
> lapel grab, and I pin that hand as I step forward .. he can't back
> away from me, but he can close in on me ... what is it that I've
> done (in kenpo terminology if you can) to his depth zone? *



Actually if your stepping forward he could back away because your giving him the space if your stepping forward it would probably be more feasable to cancel the hieght if you have control of a pinned or checked hand while stepping in. 
Cancelling the depth would require you disabling the rear arm or leg with either the way you pinned the hand or controlled the arm you have with an angle of disturbance. Almost putting yourself into an obscure zone for him. Making him unable to strike with his depth


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 17, 2003)

These are 3 separate concepts that deal with the Dimensional Zone Theory.

Kirk, in your "Boot to the groin" example, you "Disturbed" his height zone, which may or may not have "Cancelled" his height dimension.  If it cancelled the height zone, then it could be considered a check.  Remember a check is intended to only "momentarily negate the action of another."  I would think that in all liklihood you had this momentary check.  

*Having said that, I really don't think it was a check.  Confused yet?  I think you used a strike, front snapping ball kick, to the intended target, the groin, with the intent to injure or create a desired reaction for you next retalitory strike (borrowed force, or positional advantage.)  You inadvertantly, or purposfully created a check by your strike, but was that your intent?  No, you were trying to kick him between the legs.*   You could have done a front thrusting ball kick to the inside of the groin, checking depth and width, and cancelling height probably.  The groin strike itself should check, to some extent height and depth, but not width, (as he falls grabbing your legs.

A lot of Kenpoist think that a check is more of a "control" that lasts more than "momentarily."  I think that if it lasts more than a fraction of a second, you are moving into a Contact Manipulation but employing Restraining Pressure, for the intent of striking or manuvearing, not contact immobilization.

Well, you get the idea, Kenpo is a sophisticated world of limitless opportunities for retaliatory strikes.

Oss


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *These are 3 separate concepts that deal with the Dimensional Zone Theory.
> 
> Kirk, in your "Boot to the groin" example, you "Disturbed" his height zone, which may or may not have "Cancelled" his height dimension.  If it cancelled the height zone, then it could be considered a check.  Remember a check is intended to only "momentarily negate the action of another."  I would think that in all liklihood you had this momentary check.
> ...



I like it!  Thanks!


----------



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *These are 3 separate concepts that deal with the Dimensional Zone Theory.
> 
> Kirk, in your "Boot to the groin" example, you "Disturbed" his height zone, which may or may not have "Cancelled" his height dimension.  If it cancelled the height zone, then it could be considered a check.  Remember a check is intended to only "momentarily negate the action of another."  I would think that in all liklihood you had this momentary check.
> ...



Informative, but leading to more questions  

So in Delayed Sword, the groin kick can temporarily check his
height (I realize depth too, but I just wanna keep it to main ones 
to keep this all straight).  And in Crossing Talons I've checked his
height, but also used Contact Manipulation??


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 17, 2003)

Geez, there is so much stuff on the 1st move of Crossing Talons.

In the most rudimentary sense, the least you have done is cancelled height and width - I am assuming and leaving out a lot here, but I think you are talking about one of the various arm bars that can be used in Crossing Talon.  You are also checking with your leg, and initiated the Contact Manipulation before/as you begin to step. It is activly being applied long before you get to the actual settled stance in what most consider the 1st move.  

I initiate a wrist lock on my initial move into pressure points on the posterior side of the arm.

Gotta go eat.  Later


----------



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

K .. I guess what I should have asked is:

I'm a purple belt.  Using up to blue belt material on the 16 tech
system, could someone please tell me the difference in cancelling
height zones are, versus controlling the height, and now (thanks
to Mr Billings  ) what contact manipulations .. using techniques
as examples.


----------



## cdhall (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What constitutes a true zone cancel?? *



Hey, this looks like a good thread!
 

An answer I formulated to Kirk earlier, without benefit of my notes or any books, which I think may be what he is looking for here because of its simplicity is:

A Zone is Cancelled when that Zone can no longer be employed.

For example -  if your opponent can not turn left or right then his Width is cancelled.

That is very simple but it is how I understand it.

Similarly of course if your opponent is on his toes as in Lone Kimono (I saw this on a Tatum tape once) and can not rise further on his own or drop his weight (because of your armbar/hyperexension) then his Height is cancelled.

It is my extrapolation that it is "Cancelled" because he can no longer employ it.

I know this may be simple, but tell me if it is also correct.  Same goes for Depth I may as well add.  In Taming the Mace, if you have sandwiched your opponent against the wall then he can not move backward or forward (because of both your elbow and knee for example) and his Depth Zone is Cancelled here.

I really hope I am not far off on this.
:asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Informative, but leading to more questions
> 
> So in Delayed Sword, the groin kick can temporarily check his
> ...



That kick is actually the depth ck and one of the primary reasons  you use it in Delayed Sword, and the residual effect is bringing the head and shoulders forward for the next strike.   If the arm is still pinned and you step back it should pull your opponent forward to cancel width and add weight to the forward leg to cancel height.    The motion of stepping back also has the advantage of a momentary depth ck until the kick is delivered.     Hope that helped clarify that part.

Crossing Talon is a bit more complicated, especially when you do the technique with a pull to 2 oclock.    Taking the angle of least resistance and moving from Point of Origin are the concepts this tech. is teaching in the first move.    Once your arm makes contact with their arm the contact manipulation begins and your zone cancellations will start to take effect


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

I think I may have it now .. in Mace of Agression, once I pin the
arms, the attacker can still move forward, so it's a check.  If I 
keep my foot on top of his (maintaining my base) he can no longer
move forward or back, so I've cancelled?  If I buckle his knee with
mine, then I've used contact manipulation?  Is that right?

Thanks everyone for trying to help.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I think I may have it now .. in Mace of Agression, once I pin the
> arms, the attacker can still move forward, so it's a check.  If I
> keep my foot on top of his (maintaining my base) he can no longer
> ...



The rake to the side of the head is the depth ck but keep in mind the pin is to make sure they are not able to move away from it.     The idea of grabbing someone is to control them, when you pin their appendage to your own body you have regained control.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Kirk (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *The rake to the side of the head is the depth ck but keep in mind the pin is to make sure they are not able to move away from it.     The idea of grabbing someone is to control them, when you pin their appendage to your own body you have regained control.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



First, thanks a bunch for your help!  Secondly, I understand the
point you made ... was I right about the rest, or way way off?


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *First, thanks a bunch for your help!  Secondly, I understand the
> point you made ... was I right about the rest, or way way off? *



The pin on a foot would be a height ck no doubt as it prevents them from using it.    The buckling of a leg and the striking a leg are two different things.    If you strike a leg that would be considered to be contact penetration whereas buckling a leg would be contact manipulation.   The differences can be subtle but most times obvious.   I used a punch the other day to stop a hook kick off their forward leg.    I waited until he brought the knee up and punched his thigh at the quadracep.   It defintely had the desired effect of stopping his kick LOL, but the fact that he was balanced on only one leg and the the power of the punch pushed him off balance, cancelling height, and depth.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## cdhall (Jul 17, 2003)

That is cool. 
Were you wearing hand gear?


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *That is cool.
> Were you wearing hand gear? *



I was wearing gear but it still left a bruise on his leg and he limped for a couple of days after that, we had a good laugh about it yesterday tho because he had a couple of other bruises on his chest from the infamous TOE KICK I've got.    I've conditioned my toes enough to be able to kick with just the big toe.    I actually dropped a guy to his knees after he caught one in the right pectoral.    I thought I killed him from the expression he made LOL.   He told me it was like getting hit in the chest with a round nose ball peen hammer.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I was wearing gear but it still left a bruise on his leg and he limped for a couple of days after that, we had a good laugh about it yesterday tho because he had a couple of other bruises on his chest from the infamous TOE KICK I've got.    I've conditioned my toes enough to be able to kick with just the big toe.    I actually dropped a guy to his knees after he caught one in the right pectoral.    I thought I killed him from the expression he made LOL.   He told me it was like getting hit in the chest with a round nose ball peen hammer.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Noted...for the time(s) when I spar Clyde!


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> What is required for true zone canceling?
> *



As opposed to an * un-true * zone canceling?

lol



> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> What constitutes a true zone cancel??
> *



When the opponent is unable to "respond" ..... momentarily or longer.

:asian:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 18, 2003)

You can attack balance or posture. That is a given; so, tell me why worry about which zone a move may or may not have an efect on when your results will be the same reguardless?
Life is too short.


----------



## Kirk (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *so, tell me why worry about which zone a move may or may not have an efect on when your results will be the same reguardless? *



Because it's part of the art that I study.  I don't want shortcuts,
I want to learn the full art that my teacher and my 
teacher's teacher have laid out for me.


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Because it's part of the art that I study.  I don't want shortcuts,
> I want to learn the full art that my teacher and my
> teacher's teacher have laid out for me. *



The student knows HOW....The Teacher knows WHY!  :asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *You can attack balance or posture. That is a given; so, tell me why worry about which zone a move may or may not have an efect on when your results will be the same reguardless?
> Life is too short. *



You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?    I noticed you didn't give a response to the gaseous expansion question on the technical forum, why is that?  


Clyde


----------



## cdhall (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?    I noticed you didn't give a response to the gaseous expansion question on the technical forum, why is that?
> 
> 
> Clyde *



Amen to cluelessness!
I think that Touch'O'Death has demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of what we are talking about.
He may or may not know something else, but he does not know what is going on here. 

And I thought I explained it pretty clearly earlier, but no one has commented so maybe I'm the same boat at Touch'O'Death?


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Amen to cluelessness!
> I think that Touch'O'Death has demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of what we are talking about.
> He may or may not know something else, but he does not know what is going on here.
> ...



Hey Doug, from the info I gleaned in our conversation on the phone you know exactly what we're talking about.    Stay the course bro'.   

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Hey Doug, from the info I gleaned in our conversation on the phone you know exactly what we're talking about.    Stay the course bro'.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Phone....Clyde you know how to use the phone?  Is just for incoming calls?  Or do you know how to call people back too?    Just messin wit ya!


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 18, 2003)

I did not reply to Gaseous Expansion cuz it would have been the "Book Definition", it sorta takes the fun, and wind out of the topic.  I would like to pursue it maybe in the context of techniques, or sparring, after we get a good defintion.  

Could "Dead Space" have a need to be filled?


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 18, 2003)

Checking zones is but a small aspect of the art, yet a good understanding of this will afford the praticioner a decent amount of power and strategy should they ever need to use the ART.

It reminds me of that old Bruce Lee story where he is describing the learning process in the MA.  He said (paraphrase of course):

When you begin in the MA, a punch is just a punch.  Then after a couple of classes you realize that a punch is not just a punch, but complex mechanics, manuevers, principles and physics.  Then after a few years of learning the complexities, you realize again, that a punch is just a punch.

There are various aspects of the our art that when learned will require a fair amount of thought and practice.  It may take several years to do so, but these aspects should become second nature and be performed without a seconds thought.  The ideas should be so ingrained that they simply emerge at the necessary moment.  

Just my thoughts.


----------

