# Weapon based sparring



## Finlay (Oct 22, 2017)

Hello

What are your opinions on weapon based sparring. 

There seem to be a couple of different approaches. The first hit approach where you try to tag your opponent before they get you. This would be like fencing or Kendo

The other approach seem to be sort of a go hell for leather, LeRoy Jenkins type approach. This would be like WEKAF way of doing things. This to me seems extremely difficult to judge

In between I guess would be things like the dog brothers styles or MEMA.

One other approach is to put lipstick or paint on training knives and then see how well you can mark up your opponent. This would maybe be more for training than sparring however.

What do others think of the weapons based sparring apporach?


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## Martial D (Oct 22, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Hello


Hi



> What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.


I like it.




> What do other things if the weapons based sparring apporach?



What?


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 22, 2017)

Your going to have to explain yourself better. I Googled Leroy J. and I got video games (please let's not go into fantasy,  there is a thread on that).. then I Googled  WEKAF. No idea what that is Google brought me to a radio station.
If you want to have a serious discussion,  if you have an opinion state it and if you have a question feel free to ask but let's not use vague references and fantasy.


Edit: I found WEKAF,,  it's kali point sparring.


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## CB Jones (Oct 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Your going to have to explain yourself better. I Googled Leroy J. and I got video games (please let's not go into fantasy,  there is a thread on that).. then I Googled  WEKAF. No idea what that is Google brought me to a radio station.
> If you want to have a serious discussion,  if you have an opinion state it and if you have a question feel free to ask but let's not use vague references and fantasy.
> 
> 
> Edit: I found WEKAF,,  it's kali point sparring.



The Leeroy Jenkins reference means to just attack aggressively without any regards to safety or strategy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Hello
> 
> What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.
> 
> ...


Just get two sticks or rubber knives and go to town on each other.

General strategy:hit them but don't get hit, and start from the hands (fingers/wrist), and work your way in.

Edit: to anyone reading, please do this with protective gear. My recommendation would be fencing mask and hockey glove. If you don't, even if it's just a rubber knife or sticks, you can still hurt yourself.


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## Anarax (Oct 22, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Hello
> 
> What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.
> 
> ...



The methods used in training/sparring shape the way you fight. The first hit method is flawed, it trains you to fight in "hit, stop, reset" mentality. Imagine full contact fighters training with this mentality, when one lands a strike they reset. It teaches you to not fight with combinations and also prevents you from developing defense skills against combos. I studied sport saber fencing for 10 years and taught it for 2. I know the the flaws of the first hit method first hand.

Kendo has a few select target areas, you must tap your foot and yell out the target area you hit at the time of contact with the shinai. Take that for what it is

WEKAF tries to be more realistic in its continuous approach. However; the rules favor how many strikes you land and gives very little to no importance on defense. When sparring they wear very thick pads, thus all defensive techniques are thrown out the window. This causes almost every exchange to be become a whirlwind or chaotic strikes, both combatants being struck dozens of times in the face, yet are still striking the other person. That's not very realistic

The original Dog Brothers, Marc, Eric and Arlan were trained by Inosanto and are very well trained Martial Artist. Dog brothers have a lot of knowledge and experience that almost anyone can benefit from. However; their gathering are barbaric and unstructured. If you haven't seen their gatherings go to Youtube and search dog brothers, they upload the highlights. There is a fine line between training hard and training recklessly, they cross that line frequently. In their gatherings I've seen participants get their head gashed open, knees separated and impaled with training knives. A lot of the gathering participants aren't even that skilled, they just run out there swinging wildly with not footwork not technique. 

MEMA? Do you mean HEMA? If so I don't have any personal experience with HEMA, but from what I've seen they have a good approach. 

The Kali school I go to does continuous sparring with either lipstick or chalk. This gives you more feedback on what areas you need to cover more and gives a clear idea on who would have died and survived. I think this approach is best.


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## Anarax (Oct 22, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Edit: to anyone reading, please do this with protective gear. My recommendation would be fencing mask and hockey glove. If you don't, even if it's just a rubber knife or sticks, you can still hurt yourself.



No, *do not use a fencing mask*. Fencing masks *aren't* designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection


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## MA_Student (Oct 22, 2017)

Personally I have absolutely 0 interest in weapons. It's just not my thing at all. I'll weapon disarms but I have no interest what so ever in learning how to use them. Whenever I've had people trying to teach me weapon stuff I'm bored and uninterested in minutes just not my thing


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Your going to have to explain yourself better. I Googled Leroy J. and I got video games (please let's not go into fantasy,  there is a thread on that).. then I Googled  WEKAF. No idea what that is Google brought me to a radio station.
> If you want to have a serious discussion,  if you have an opinion state it and if you have a question feel free to ask but let's not use vague references and fantasy.
> 
> 
> Edit: I found WEKAF,,  it's kali point sparring.


Leroy Jenkins is a reference to a gamer who, when part of a group going into a difficult area, just charged in (yelling "Leeeerroooy Jenkins!") while others were discussing strategy. I think all the characters died.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> No, *do not use a fencing mask*. Fencing masks *aren't* designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection


It would probably be sufficient for rubber training knives and for padded sticks. I'd have to experiment to see.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> No, *do not use a fencing mask*. Fencing masks *aren't* designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection


Like gpseymour said, I normally refer to rubber knives/padded sticks. fencing mask works well enough for them. Never tried with sticks, good to know. I'll switch to an excrima helmet just to be safe.


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## Anarax (Oct 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It would probably be sufficient for rubber training knives and for padded sticks. I'd have to experiment to see.


 Yes it would be, I was referring to non padded sticks.


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## Anarax (Oct 22, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Like gpseymour said, I normally refer to rubber knives/padded sticks. fencing mask works well enough for them. Never tried with sticks, good to know. I'll switch to an excrima helmet just to be safe.


 Yes, I only meant for non-padded sticks. Fencing masks are okay for padded sticks or rubber knives


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Yes, I only meant for non-padded sticks. Fencing masks are okay for padded sticks or rubber knives


Good to know. I'll definitely get another mask for before I 'graduate to non-padded sticks.


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## Finlay (Oct 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The methods used in training/sparring shape the way you fight. The first hit method is flawed, it trains you to fight in "hit, stop, reset" mentality. Imagine full contact fighters training with this mentality, when one lands a strike they reset. It teaches you to not fight with combinations and also prevents you from developing defense skills against combos. I studied sport saber fencing for 10 years and taught it for 2. I know the the flaws of the first hit method first hand.
> 
> Kendo has a few select target areas, you must tap your foot and yell out the target area you hit at the time of contact with the shinai. Take that for what it is
> 
> ...




Interesting 

I always though the fencing and kendo approach made for an interesting sport but had little practical value. Maybe training one particular skill rather than a full fighting approach

Like you stated, there is no attention paid to defence in the WEKAF type of sparring. Do the judges just get a feel for who hit the most and then declare them the winner?

I had though the Dog Brothers had a very good sparring system until I read your post. I didn't realise how common or how serious the injuries were

Are there any other sparring systems that fall some where between the one hit point striking or the no defence and just hit wild approaches?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 22, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Interesting
> 
> I always though the fencing and kendo approach made for an interesting sport but had little practical value. Maybe training one particular skill rather than a full fighting approach
> 
> ...


The problem is that weapons are force multipliers. With most weapons, the more realistic the interaction, the more likely injuries are. The more safety you inject, the less realistic the interaction is. I've done some very limited weapons sparring, and this is the reason. I tend to prefer using padded weapons and hit fairly hard - it gives incentive to keep up defense (and provides some conditioning), but has far less chance of injury.


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## Anarax (Oct 22, 2017)

Finlay said:


> always though the fencing and kendo approach made for an interesting sport but had little practical value. Maybe training one particular skill rather than a full fighting approach


Yes, originally sport fencing was supposed to represent real sword fighting, but was safer to compete. After so many decades it has evolved to become an electrified game of tag. There are techniques in sport fencing today that would get you killed in a real sword fight.


Finlay said:


> Like you stated, there is no attention paid to defence in the WEKAF type of sparring. Do the judges just get a feel for who hit the most and then declare them the winner?


From the WEKAF matches I've seen the one who lands the most amount of strikes is the one who usually wins, regardless of how many times they were hit


Finlay said:


> I had though the Dog Brothers had a very good sparring system until I read your post. I didn't realise how common or how serious the injuries were


Yes, the original group are great guys and highly skilled martial artists. The newer generations of students at the gatherings are mostly just berserkers with very little training.


Finlay said:


> Are there any other sparring systems that fall some where between the one hit point striking or the no defence and just hit wild approaches?


Each Kali/Escrima/Arnis school is different. But I think practice knives with lipstick or chalk to see the strikes along with eye protection is a good method. Either geared up stick sparing with an element of defense in it or padded sticks with face/eye protection are good methods for stick.


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## Finlay (Oct 22, 2017)

What do people think of "shock knives"?

Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?


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## Finlay (Oct 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The problem is that weapons are force multipliers. With most weapons, the more realistic the interaction, the more likely injuries are. The more safety you inject, the less realistic the interaction is. I've done some very limited weapons sparring, and this is the reason. I tend to prefer using padded weapons and hit fairly hard - it gives incentive to keep up defense (and provides some conditioning), but has far less chance of injury.




Yes I think this is exactly the problem. Training with a killing weapon without killing


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

Finlay said:


> What do people think of "shock knives"?
> 
> Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?


They're used for training not self defense, they even state so on their website


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## Anarax (Oct 23, 2017)

These are the best padded sticks I've ever used. We use them frequently in sparring and they have great dimensions and weight to them. You can swing hard and it delivers enough force to help you remember your defense. Locks and chokes are the only things that are difficult to pull off with padded sticks. but IMO they're the best padded sticks on the market


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

Finlay said:


> What do people think of "shock knives"?
> 
> Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?


I haven't tried one. I don't know if they'd penetrate a heavy gi. Being a hard knife, I wouldn't want to do hard stabbing with them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> They're used for training not self defense, they even state so on their website


I assumed he meant self-defense training (scenario training), rather than sparring. I agree with you - they are unlikely to be very effective for self-defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

Anarax said:


> These are the best padded sticks I've ever used. We use them frequently in sparring and they have great dimensions and weight to them. You can swing hard and it delivers enough force to help you remember your defense. Locks and chokes are the only things that are difficult to pull off with padded sticks. but IMO they're the best padded sticks on the market


Excellent - I've been looking for something and meaning to ask for opinions. And those aren't very expensive, either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Yes I think this is exactly the problem. Training with a killing weapon without killing


And training with a bruising/breaking weapon without bruising/breaking. If we use a stick properly for self-defense, we'd hope to disable the attacker in as few blows as possible. We'd hope not to actually disable our training partners, at all.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 23, 2017)

Finlay said:


> What do people think of "shock knives"?
> 
> Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?



i would like to get a set.  from what i remember they are for slashing attacks and it is not recommended for thrusting and stabbing actions.  the electric wires are on the side edges.  i think they would be good for sparring, but again you are limited to slashing.


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## Blindside (Oct 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i would like to get a set.  from what i remember they are for slashing attacks and it is not recommended for thrusting and stabbing actions.  the electric wires are on the side edges.  i think they would be good for sparring, but again you are limited to slashing.



They are an expensive training tool that doesn't get you very much.  Once the adrenaline gets going you won't feel the "cut," you are just as well off going with an aluminum training knife and a partner willing to hit you hard.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The original Dog Brothers, Marc, Eric and Arlan were trained by Inosanto and are very well trained Martial Artist. Dog brothers have a lot of knowledge and experience that almost anyone can benefit from. However; their gathering are barbaric and unstructured. If you haven't seen their gatherings go to Youtube and search dog brothers, they upload the highlights. There is a fine line between training hard and training recklessly, they cross that line frequently. In their gatherings I've seen participants get their head gashed open, knees separated and impaled with training knives. A lot of the gathering participants aren't even that skilled, they just run out there swinging wildly with not footwork not technique.
> 
> MEMA? Do you mean HEMA? If so I don't have any personal experience with HEMA, but from what I've seen they have a good approach.



I compete regularly at DB Gatherings and I will differ from your opinion of Dog Brothers.  I will certainly agree that we aren't all master level fighters but there are a bunch of us that can more than hold their own in any format.  In any group you will have a range of skill levels are you surprised that some guys aren't good?  As for it being reckless, that is a matter of opinion, you can't really learn about yourself unless you push your limits, DBs has done that for FMA more than any other group that I have met.  Dog Brothers isn't an elite fighting organization, it is just a bunch of guys willing to play hard, but I have no doubt that the top fighters in DBs are some of the top stick fighters in the world.  

As for HEMA, I really like their approach and think their competition approach is pretty good.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> No, *do not use a fencing mask*. Fencing masks *aren't* designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection



The downside of the those helmets is that you can't thrust to the face with a training knife or sword.  And the current generation of fencing masks is really quite protective they have come a looooong way since that video was taken.  Hell, those masks were antiques then.  Gen III masks are effectively the same base mask that HEMA is using for longsword work which hit way harder than any single hand rattan that you have.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> there are a bunch of us that can more than hold their own in any format


I have no doubt of this, as I said the original DBs are highly skilled guys, thus I wouldn't be surprised that they have at least some skilled students


Blindside said:


> In any group you will have a range of skill levels are you surprised that some guys aren't good?


No I'm not surprised, but why do so many of the DBs videos(videos they edited themselves) showcase so many awful participants showing very little to no skill?


Blindside said:


> As for it being reckless, that is a matter of opinion, you can't really learn about yourself unless you push your limits, DBs has done that for FMA more than any other group that I have met


Pushing oneself to the limit and training intelligently aren't mutually exclusive. In their videos I've seen guys knee bones separated, heads and faces gashed open, bones broken and other needless injuries. We spar hard at my school but we 1) have a certain understanding of what to do 2) take proper safety precautions(though we still get bruises and other minor injuries) and 3) make sure we gain something from sparring.  A lot of the DB participants seem to have a chip on the shoulder. The guys knee who was separated was blasted by the other guy, it seemed intentional, he needed multiple surgeries afterwards but it still wasn't right again. Is that really worth whatever it is these guys think they are gaining by doing that? I've seen others strike people in the skull(no mask) with the punyo(butt of the stick) and some guy who put a cue ball in a pillow case and was hitting people as hard as he could with it. With all due respect these things are barbaric and totally pointless.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> No I'm not surprised, but why do so many of the DBs videos(videos they edited themselves) showcase so many awful participants showing very little to no skill?



Thats a good question, I think the European DBs highlight videos do a better job showcasing the skillsets than the American ones (different editor.)  Though I have done highlight videos and two skilled guys moving around countering each other really doesn't make a highlight reel very often, highlight reels are all sizzle.



Anarax said:


> Pushing oneself to the limit and training intelligently aren't mutually exclusive. In their videos I've seen guys knee bones separated, heads and faces gashed open, bones broken and other needless injuries. We spar hard at my school but we 1) have a certain understanding of what to do 2) take proper safety precautions(though we still get bruises and other minor injuries) and 3) make sure we gain something from sparring.  A lot of the DB participants seem to have a chip on the shoulder. The guys knee who was separated was blasted by the other guy, it seemed intentional, he needed multiple surgeries afterwards but it still wasn't right again. Is that really worth whatever it is these guys think they are gaining by doing that? I've seen others strike people in the skull(no mask) with the punyo(butt of the stick) and some guy who put a cue ball in a pillow case and was hitting people as hard as he could with it. With all due respect these things are barbaric and totally pointless.



When I spar at a HEMA type tournament or my guys at my home school I don't get a adrenaline rush, I am not worried about being hurt.  At DBs there is the very real possibility that I will be hurt and dealing with the adrenaline is more than half of what I get out of the fight.  I literally can't simulate this in another environment without picking fights in the real world and that is just dumb.  I do know that every time I have done this I have gotten better about dealing with the adrenaline, my combat computer is running better and I can access better skillsets.  I am not all that much better than my first Gathering but I can do a lot more now.  I have watched really skilled guys who don't look all that good in their first Gatherings, adrenaline does funny things to people. 

As for having a chip on their shoulder, it is exactly the opposite, the egos are totally in check, I have seen stupid karate point fighting tournaments with far more ego in the room.  There is never (well almost never) anything malicious about a fight at a Gathering, it is all about pushing the other guy to the limit, and yes sometimes you miss that limit and go too far, but it is never malicious.  As for barbarism, I guess it can be seen as such from the outside, but from the inside it is done for fun and as I said before, to challenge ones fears.  One guy challenged me to a chain match this year and my first response was "F no!"  After some cajoling and some friendly peer pressure I agreed to fight him with chains even though I have never done it before and quite frankly it looks really damn scary.  That fight never happened, he got hurt before we could go but I will tell you what, I suspect he and I will get another dance with chains at the next Gathering because I have been given some time to think about it and think there are a couple of things that I can do that will surprise him.  Gatherings aren't really about being safe they are about challenging yourself.  You can't train like that everyday, most DBs train light sticks or padded sticks at their home schools, Gatherings are fights not training.


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## Finlay (Oct 24, 2017)

Chains huh?

That would be interesting. 

Just for my curiosity how long are they?


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Chains huh?
> 
> That would be interesting.
> 
> Just for my curiosity how long are they?



64 inches doubled and then hooked together with a carabiner to hold onto, so the overall length was around 32 inches or so.


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## Finlay (Oct 24, 2017)

So a little shy of a metre

Interesting. Maybe too small an arc to get inside unless you were very quick

Quite hard for wrapping too I am guessing


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Finlay said:


> So a little shy of a metre
> 
> Interesting. Maybe too small an arc to get inside unless you were very quick
> 
> Quite hard for wrapping too I am guessing



Good analysis, pretty much my take as well.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Hello
> 
> What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.
> 
> ...



I think there is a difference between training and then coming up with a ruleset that allows you to do it in competition.  In training it is relatively easy to acknowledge when you got hit on an afterblow or recognize that even if you were fractionally faster the other guys shot would have landed as well.  Our general policy is that any trade is a bad trade, we tend to emphasize "blade based" sparring because it tends to be more technical than stick based, I find that is easier to go from bladed to stick assumptions rather than the other way around.  My own group uses padded sticks for beginners and light rattan for my more advanced guys.

I really hate the WEKAF approach, great for cardio and hitting hard and not much else.

Obviously I am a fan of the DB approach, though the Gatherings are usually "this is a stick" and we use bigger sticks than your average FMA school to make rattan actually useful as an impact weapon.  When other weapons are used more care is taken.  See this highlight reel as an example, it has a lot more sword in it than other reels:    



  This isn't a ruleset, it is an acknowledgement that we aren't actually trying to kill each other, literally the main rule is: "be friends at the end of the day."  The caveat is that we can still be friends if I break something of you as long as it wasn't malicious, and hopefully it was something unimportant like a finger, becasue that is just the cost of playing hard.

For a competition format I really like what some of our area HEMA groups are using, which is a stop action tournament but has provisions for afterblows and double hits.  Double hits are really frowned upon and has a highly negative influence on the scoring.  The ruleset that these groups use are from CombatCon.  2016 Tournament Rules - CombatCon


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 24, 2017)

posted in wrong thread.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> I think the European DBs highlight videos do a better job showcasing the skillsets than the American ones (different editor.)


I haven't seen that much of a difference between the American and European videos


Blindside said:


> highlight reels are all sizzle.


Do you mean to show action opposed to skill(I'm not being condescending I really want to know)?


Blindside said:


> At DBs there is the very real possibility that I will be hurt and dealing with the adrenaline is more than half of what I get out of the fight. I literally can't simulate this in another environment without picking fights in the real world and that is just dumb.


Isn't that what sparring is for? When I'm sparring a black belt trying to take my head off that training is very real and they push me to feel like I'm fighting for real. Learning to deal with that helps me control my adrenaline in a street altercation. Imagine if soldiers were fired with live rounds directly at them for training purposes? It would be reckless and needless to do so. They fire blanks that sounds like live rounds or fire live rounds clearly missing them.  


Blindside said:


> I do know that every time I have done this I have gotten better about dealing with the adrenaline, my combat computer is running better and I can access better skillsets


Is the relatively moderate probability of getting a debilitating injury worth it though? If you do get injured you'll lose more training in the long run given you'll need a recovery period and might have life long problems   


Blindside said:


> I am not all that much better than my first Gathering


I don't understand, why go then?


Blindside said:


> As for having a chip on their shoulder, it is exactly the opposite, the egos are totally in check, I have seen stupid karate point fighting tournaments with far more ego in the room.


I didn't say DBs people are the only people I've seen with chips on their shoulders. Lets use your example of karate point fighting though. In point fighting you are disqualified for excessive contact or unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't think many people compete in point fighting to hurt the other person, given the rule set. However; at the gatherings it seems with the intent and techniques thrown and even the weapons used, more than a few of the participants go there with the intentions on hurting someone or proving something. This makes this situations that more volatile.    


Blindside said:


> There is never (well almost never) anything malicious about a fight at a Gathering, it is all about pushing the other guy to the limit, and yes sometimes you miss that limit and go too far, but it is never malicious


Lacking the control to not exceed a certain limit and start swinging to kill is malicious. Regardless of the handshakes or hugs given after the fight, it meaningless when one of the guys was trying kill the other and destroy his knees.


Blindside said:


> As for barbarism, I guess it can be seen as such from the outside, but from the inside it is done for fun and as I said before, to challenge ones fears.


The Filipinos, who have more experience and have Kali/Escrima in there blood and is heavily ingrained in their culture, don't train with this method. Do they train hard? Yes, but they do so with the mindset to not cause injury, opposed to having intentions to cause injury. You can watch documentaries on Kali/Escrima in the Philippines, and a lot of the schools either wear padded gear, use padded sticks or spar with control with rattan with no protection. I have no doubt when the Filipinos practitioners are in a real encountered, they retain almost everything, not wildly swinging forgetting everything they know. Essentially, they achieve the same thing but less recklessly.


Blindside said:


> You can't train like that everyday, most DBs train light sticks or padded sticks at their home schools, Gatherings are fights not training.


I understand that, but the Gatherings are planned, scheduled and hosted by the DBs, thus it reflects on them.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Do you mean to show action opposed to skill(I'm not being condescending I really want to know)?


Yup, showing action rather than skill, most people watching a highlight reel don't know what they are looking at, and this is more true of weapon based martial arts than many unarmed arts.



Anarax said:


> Isn't that what sparring is for? When I'm sparring a black belt trying to take my head off that training is very real and they push me to feel like I'm fighting for real. Learning to deal with that helps me control my adrenaline in a street altercation. Imagine if soldiers were fired with live rounds directly at them for training purposes? It would be reckless and needless to do so. They fire blanks that sounds like live rounds or fire live rounds clearly missing them.



So this may work for you, I have no idea about what your level is, I know that some of my students got adrenaline rushes the first time they sparred in our class, but they become used to the level relatively quickly and we then up the level.  I am an instructor, I don't get any sort of adrenaline dump facing my students, I have really good fighters, but I implicitly trust them too much and we have fought too often.  Doing DBs pushes me beyond sparring into something that is more like an actual fight, different level and as I said before I can't simulate this at my school, my brain thinks it is safe.  DBs is a compromise between being not safe and being actually deadly.  To push your soldier analogy I don't spar with live blades, that would be stupid, but I accept that the risk of breaking things is a level I am willing to play at.  Paratroopers jump out of airplanes as part of their training even though it is an inherently unsafe activity, it is a level of risk that the military is willing to take with their soldiers and a paratrooper must be willing to take to be certfied for that job.  I don't think DBs is for everybody, but it was and is helpful to me.



Anarax said:


> Is the relatively moderate probability of getting a debilitating injury worth it though? If you do get injured you'll lose more training in the long run given you'll need a recovery period and might have life long problems
> 
> I don't understand, why go then?



Clearly the risk is worth it to me, it doesn't sound like it is to you, this isn't something that is for everyone.  I haven't lost training time, out of five Gatherings and six days of fighting I have broken one finger bone, it gave me six weeks of focused training with my left hand.    I also think you have a misperceived understanding of the risk, Out of the five Gatherings I have been to I have only seen one really serious injury (split patella), the rest have been a couple of fractured ribs, a couple of shoulder injuries, at least two broken fingers/hands a Gathering, and a whole bunch of contusions and lacerations.  That is probably out of 400 fights.  (One of my students was the medic for two years.)  If you compare that to the injury rate of say, girls cheerleading or gymnastics or mens football I suspect it pales in comparison.

One of the benefits that I haven't mentioned is that I get to fight against strangers, guys with totally different fighting styles than anything I have seen at my school and this is something that you literally can't get if you train with an insular group.

My general skill level hasn't grown that much because I am on the high end of my learning curve, what I am getting far better at is applying that skill.  Lets say that in the five years that I have been going to DB Gatherings my general skill level has gotten 20% higher (I am just making up numbers here), but the important thing is that my ability to access those skills has grown by 60%.  Does that make sense?



Anarax said:


> I didn't say DBs people are the only people I've seen with chips on their shoulders. Lets use your example of karate point fighting though. In point fighting you are disqualified for excessive contact or unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't think many people compete in point fighting to hurt the other person, given the rule set. However; at the gatherings it seems with the intent and techniques thrown and even the weapons used, more than a few of the participants go there with the intentions on hurting someone or proving something. This makes this situations that more volatile.



You said that they seem to have chips on their shoulders and I told you that we don't.  When I am going there I am absolutely trying to stop my opponent that doesn't mean that I "have a chip on my shoulder."  That implies that I have a grudge or a bad attitude.  There is nothing malicious about our fight, we are both entering this to push the other guy.



Anarax said:


> Lacking the control to not exceed a certain limit and start swinging to kill is malicious. Regardless of the handshakes or hugs given after the fight, it meaningless when one of the guys was trying kill the other and destroy his knees.



I would argue that the limited number of serious injuries from the Gatherings that I have actually attended says that the control is actually quite good.  And again malice implies ill will or evil intent, there is absolutely none of that.  Is it malicious if you blacken a guys eye in a sparring match at your school?  Not in my opinion, you both went in there knowing that was a risk.



Anarax said:


> The Filipinos, who have more experience and have Kali/Escrima in there blood and is heavily ingrained in their culture, don't train with this method. Do they train hard? Yes, but they do so with the mindset to not cause injury, opposed to having intentions to cause injury. You can watch documentaries on Kali/Escrima in the Philippines, and a lot of the schools either wear padded gear, use padded sticks or spar with control with rattan with no protection. I have no doubt when the Filipinos practitioners are in a real encountered, they retain almost everything, not wildly swinging forgetting everything they know. Essentially, they achieve the same thing but less recklessly.



Do they achieve the same thing?  How do you know?  Stories handed down about death matches?  I have had the chance to spar with some of the students of those Filipino instructors, some are good, lots aren't, and many won't even gear up.  I have talked to students from the Philippines about the value of DB type sparring and some lament that they don't do more of it.  And yes, when under stress some of the Filipinos did revert to "wildly swinging."  Hell, I have watched the son of a well known grandmaster basically do nothing more than ones and twos with no footwork.  This is a guy who literally grew up in the system and is presumably privy to all the "secrets," he is currently set to inherit the system whenever his father passes on.  Be careful about putting the "masters from the Philippines" on a pedestal.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> most people watching a highlight reel don't know what they are looking at, and this is more true of weapon based martial arts than many unarmed arts.


Wouldn't that imply they are trying to appeal to those untrained in weaponry?


Blindside said:


> To push your soldier analogy I don't spar with live blades, that would be stupid, but I accept that the risk of breaking things is a level I am willing to play at. Paratroopers jump out of airplanes as part of their training even though it is an inherently unsafe activity, it is a level of risk that the military is willing to take with their soldiers and a paratrooper must be willing to take to be certfied for that job.


The blanks or intentional greatly missed shots are used to get the soldiers use to the Psychological strain of combat. My point was that this can be achieved without having to recreate the environment under the same exact conditions that a real combat situation would be(shooting at them with live rounds). The paratrooper jump is a different situation. Yes there is a psychological aspect to it, but it's more so the skill of jumping out of the plane and making it safely to your objective on the ground. The weapons fire is more psychological conditioning.   


Blindside said:


> Clearly the risk is worth it to me, it doesn't sound like it is to you, this isn't something that is for everyone


The risk must always be comparable to what's a stake. If I'm defending my life or someone else's life, then yes it is worth it. Going to a gathering and risking permanent injury so I feel like I accomplished something isn't worth it to me. I think sparring hard with highly trained guys at my school or another school is more structured and there's more to be gained from doing so. The only challenge from achieving the same thing you're saying you get at the gathering is escalating the sparring to the point where the adrenaline starts flowing. However; I can see how you being the instructor at your school makes this more difficult given your students can't press you to that point.   


Blindside said:


> out of five Gatherings and six days of fighting I have broken one finger bone


I'm glad you haven't sustained great injuries attending, but you have been very fortunate. You sound more experienced than a lot of the guys there, so I'm sure that's played a significant factor in you avoiding serious injury. I've seen horrific injuries in their videos and those are just the visible ones. Getting cracked in the head with a stick at full force affects your brain and motor skills, it's not only the enormous open gash the stick leaves behind. You only need a handful(no pun intended) of severe strikes like that to have lasting effects from it.  


Blindside said:


> I also think you have a misperceived understanding of the risk, Out of the five Gatherings I have been to I have only seen one really serious injury (split patella), the rest have been a couple of fractured ribs, a couple of shoulder injuries, at least two broken fingers/hands a Gathering, and a whole bunch of contusions and lacerations.


I'm getting the information from the videos their own organization edits and uploads. I'm sharing what I've seen in their videos, anyone is welcome to go and watch them and tell me I wrong in my injury assessment. DB are honest and upfront about the risk involved in their gatherings and don't underplay what it is that they do. They seem to give you a clear picture in the video on what to expect, as far as intensity and injury. They usually go in with the camera to give the watcher an idea how severe the injuries are.


Blindside said:


> If you compare that to the injury rate of say, girls cheerleading or gymnastics or mens football I suspect it pales in comparison.


When injuries occur in cheer leading or gymnastics it's when something went wrong. They landed wrong, their timing was off, etc.The gatherings on the other hand are intended to be full contact, and if someone is injured(minor or major) that means one person was successful in their attack and achieved what they meant to.


Blindside said:


> One of the benefits that I haven't mentioned is that I get to fight against strangers, guys with totally different fighting styles than anything I have seen at my school and this is something that you literally can't get if you train with an insular group.


That depends on the size of your group and martial arts community you have. We have a large class where I train, and other classes are offered their by other instructors. It's a very informal environment and my instructor said each class has an understanding that you can spar one another if you want. I have done this and I agree that there is something to be gained from it. We are also encouraged to travel to affiliate schools to train and spar with others.  


Blindside said:


> My general skill level hasn't grown that much because I am on the high end of my learning curve, what I am getting far better at is applying that skill.


That's good, but are you entirely sure this can't be achieved by sparring people better than you in a structured environment? I understand if you're more skilled thus it's more difficult for you to find someone who can out class you. However; if you could choose between training/sparring under someone much more skilled than you opposed to the gatherings, which would you choose?


Blindside said:


> When I am going there I am absolutely trying to stop my opponent that doesn't mean that I "have a chip on my shoulder."


Would that involve striking someone as hard as you can in the knee or skull?


Blindside said:


> Is it malicious if you blacken a guys eye in a sparring match at your school?


Black eye? No. Kicking will force into my opponents knee or driving my elbow into their skull at full force? Yes 


Blindside said:


> Be careful about putting the "masters from the Philippines" on a pedestal.


I'm not putting them on a pedestal. My point was they have other approaches and have many highly skilled masters. I read that approximately 80% of the murders in the Philippines are done with knives or some type of blade. Thus Kali is a way of life and living for them.   

I can understand that someone in your position might have something to gain by going to the gatherings. You have peaked in your training and have a difficult time finding a way to further your abilities. What I see in a lot of their videos are the more(only comparable to their opponents of course) skilled guys beating the hell out of the lesser skilled guys, that bothers me. It would be the same as seeing a black belt beating the hell out of a white or yellow belt. There's a fine line between being a challenging sparring partner and taking of advantage/ bullying.

The three original DBs started their sparring group so they could challenge each other more. I agree highly skilled martial artists like them need to challenge each other to grow as martial artists. However; they were Inosanto's students, thus I have not doubt how exceptionally well trained they were/are. When you then expand a small group like theirs to an enormous group of people that includes those with very little to no training, I think that detracts from the original concept/reason of the groups creation.


----------



## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> I think there is a difference between training and then coming up with a ruleset that allows you to do it in competition.  In training it is relatively easy to acknowledge when you got hit on an afterblow or recognize that even if you were fractionally faster the other guys shot would have landed as well.  Our general policy is that any trade is a bad trade, we tend to emphasize "blade based" sparring because it tends to be more technical than stick based, I find that is easier to go from bladed to stick assumptions rather than the other way around.  My own group uses padded sticks for beginners and light rattan for my more advanced guys.
> 
> I really hate the WEKAF approach, great for cardio and hitting hard and not much else.
> 
> ...



WOW, this is the first time I watched their 2017 video and I really liked what I saw. They have really cleaned a lot of it up and a lot the participants look like they actually train in weaponry. The only thing I thought was excessive were the repeated blows to the back of the head and neck with the weapons and the 3 sections staff was a little hard to watch. Other than that they've really improved on just about everything


----------



## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

I think we are starting to go around in circles at this point, you find the risks not worth it, I am quite fine with the risks.  Can we agree to disagree?



Anarax said:


> The risk must always be comparable to what's a stake. If I'm defending my life or someone else's life, then yes it is worth it. Going to a gathering and risking permanent injury so I feel like I accomplished something isn't worth it to me. I think sparring hard with highly trained guys at my school or another school is more structured and there's more to be gained from doing so. The only challenge from achieving the same thing you're saying you get at the gathering is escalating the sparring to the point where the adrenaline starts flowing. However; I can see how you being the instructor at your school makes this more difficult given your students can't press you to that point.



This is going to sound bad but I have had a hard time finding guys of my level that are willing to play hard.  (I should note that I am not some sort of combat god, I am 5'6", 45, and not in the best shape of my life.)  Before I started doing DBs I actually tried calling most of the FMA schools in a three state area and basically said in the nicest possible way "hey, I am sick of fighting my guys, do you guys do any light armor sparring? The silence was defeaning, seriously a whole bunch of "not interested" or "we don't do that."  I really tried to make sure that it didn't come across as a challenge but guys didn't seem to want to play. After doing DBs and through that making the right contacts and figured out which schools were actually producing fighters we were able to start our own not-a-Dog-Brothers-Gathering to introduce people to low armor stick fighting.  Plugging Warrior Tipon-Tipon:  Warrior Tipon Tipon

This is not DB level, the only injuries in three years have been 5 stitches, one flash KO and a bunch of scrapes and stick hickies.  It is a big benefit to my students but it doesn't do much for me.  And still finding fighters is hard, we send out many invites every year, the participation fee is $10, and it is in a major metropolitan area, and most schools just never seem to find the time or have available fighters.  



Anarax said:


> I'm glad you haven't sustained great injuries attending, but you have been very fortunate. You sound more experienced than a lot of the guys there, so I'm sure that's played a significant factor in you avoiding serious injury. I've seen horrific injuries in their videos and those are just the visible ones. Getting cracked in the head with a stick at full force affects your brain and motor skills, it's not only the enormous open gash the stick leaves behind. You only need a handful(no pun intended) of severe strikes like that to have lasting effects from it.



I will be the first to say that there is a lot of marketing push how extreme the DBs are.  "If it bleeds, it leads" seems to be a popular sentiment in most of the highlight vids, so I understand why you have the impression that you do.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> WOW, this is the first time I watched their 2017 video and I really liked what I saw. They have really cleaned a lot of it up and a lot the participants look like they actually train in weaponry. The only thing I thought was excessive were the repeated blows to the back of the head and neck with the weapons and the 3 sections staff was a little hard to watch. Other than that they've really improved on just about everything



The level hasn't changed, what the editor chose to focus on was different.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> Before I started doing DBs I actually tried calling most of the FMA schools in a three state area and basically said in the nicest possible way "hey, I am sick of fighting my guys, do you guys do any light armor sparring? The silence was defeaning, seriously a whole bunch of "not interested" or "we don't do that."


Was this recently?


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> This is not DB level


Wait I'm a little confused, you mean you had your own non dog brothers gathering? And you have also attended DB gatherings as well?


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Was this recently?



6 or 7 years ago or so, before I started going to Gatherings.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Wait I'm a little confused, you mean you had your own non dog brothers gathering? And you have also attended DB gatherings as well?



Myself and another guy started promoting a stickfighting event that is not affiliated with the Dog Brothers, which we call the Warrior Tipon-Tipon.  I have attended 5 DB Gatherings.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> 6 or 7 years ago or so, before I started going to Gatherings.



I ask because FMA has really spread a lot in the past 5 years. You might want to try searching for new schools that have popped up in the past few years.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I ask because FMA has really spread a lot in the past 5 years. You might want to try searching for new schools that have popped up in the past few years.



Totally agree, which is why I send out something like 40+ emails/social media contacts/phone calls every year to every FMA group I can find within a reasonable distance of Seattle to come play at the Tipon-Tipon.  Still trying to grow it.

Finding sparring partners is hard, there was a full Dog Brother in Portland who looked for five years to find sparring partners beyond his immediate instructor and only had two guys ever respond.  Those two guys were my students.   Admittedly he was the opposite of me, young, ripped, and scary.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I'm getting the information from the videos their own organization edits and uploads. I'm sharing what I've seen in their videos, anyone is welcome to go and watch them and tell me I wrong in my injury assessment. DB are honest and upfront about the risk involved in their gatherings and don't underplay what it is that they do. They seem to give you a clear picture in the video on what to expect, as far as intensity and injury. They usually go in with the camera to give the watcher an idea how severe the injuries are.


I get the impression that the Dog Brothers make a point of showing what sort of injuries are possible so as to discourage unprepared people from imitating that sort of practice. (Don't try this at home, kids!)  Highlight videos from a given gathering will show only some of the matches but all of the significant injuries, making it look like the odds of injury are higher than they are.

(Lamont, please correct me if I am wrong about this.)


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I get the impression that the Dog Brothers make a point of showing what sort of injuries are possible so as to discourage unprepared people from imitating that sort of practice. (Don't try this at home, kids!)  Highlight videos from a given gathering will show only some of the matches but all of the significant injuries, making it look like the odds of injury are higher than they are.
> 
> (Lamont, please correct me if I am wrong about this.)



I am not sure the motives are as noble as discouraging people from doing it as much as a "look how badass we are" marketing end of things.  But the latter part of your post is right on, you can just about count on every bleeder making it onto a highlight reel.  I think they are moving away from that in the last couple of years, the 2017 Tribal highlight definately has a different feel to it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> Finding sparring partners is hard,


Wish you were located closer. I'd love to come and play.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Wish you were located closer. I'd love to come and play.



I wish you were closer, you could help develop our "grappling with weapons" curriculum.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I get the impression that the Dog Brothers make a point of showing what sort of injuries are possible so as to discourage unprepared people from imitating that sort of practice. (Don't try this at home, kids!)  Highlight videos from a given gathering will show only some of the matches but all of the significant injuries, making it look like the odds of injury are higher than they are.
> 
> (Lamont, please correct me if I am wrong about this.)



I agree some might misinterpret the injury ratio. However; when I watch the videos I make note about how many people are there and the amount/severity of injuries. Even with that taken into consideration it's still something to be concerned about. I can't say with 100% certainty what the Dog Brothers intentions are for putting the injuries in the videos, but they seem like good genuine guys. Editing out the injuries, at least the severe ones may seem dishonest to them. There's no reason why putting the injuries into the videos can't be both, discouraging the ones who shouldn't do it and entice those that have a taste for it


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2017)

Blindside said:


> stick hickies


I find this inexplicably funny, Blindside. I'm blaming it on the whiskey and the fact that I hear it in a Southern drawl in my head.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I find this inexplicably funny, Blindside. I'm blaming it on the whiskey and the fact that I hear it in a Southern drawl in my head.


I am now trying to figure out how a drunk southerner would say it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

Blindside said:


> I am now trying to figure out how a drunk southerner would say it.


At least 5 syllables.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2017)

I just watched the DB Euro Gathering 2016 highlights and I found it amusing that with all the matches involving full contact sticks to the head, punches, kicks, knees, elbows, and throws on a hard floor the one time Marc Denny told someone to be more careful was when the fighter was applying a heel hook.

It's true, heel hooks are dangerous and you should be careful when applying them in sparring. I just found it interesting that they were regarded as a higher concern than full power shots with a heavy stick.


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## Anarax (Oct 25, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I just watched the DB Euro Gathering 2016 highlights and I found it amusing that with all the matches involving full contact sticks to the head, punches, kicks, knees, elbows, and throws on a hard floor the one time Marc Denny told someone to be more careful was when the fighter was applying a heel hook.
> 
> It's true, heel hooks are dangerous and you should be careful when applying them in sparring. I just found it interesting that they were regarded as a higher concern than full power shots with a heavy stick.



I thought the same thing, especially considering the guy on the ground was kicking him in the face and cracking him in the arm with the stick. I think the guy standing responded appropriately considering the circumstances. However; when the other guys lost their fencing masks or gloves no time was called nor any warning given, they just continued striking each other.


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## Langenschwert (Jan 10, 2018)

Interesting thread.

The main thing to consider when using any kind of sparring rules (armed or otherwise) is "what are we trying to accomplish?" Secondly, "how can we accomplish that with the optimal balance of realism (whatever that means in your context) and safety?" We all have jobs to go to the next day.

Any set of sparring rules are going to be an abstraction when compared to an earnest encounter. That's why it can be useful to change the rules from time to time. Ideally, regardless of the rules, the best fighters should come out on top. If the goal is "hit the opponent on the left side of the torso while hopping on one leg", then the best fighter should be able to adapt to the game and do that. Look up "Ringen im Grublein".

Interestingly enough, historically the rules for weapon tournaments were strangely abstract, and these were people who were in a position to have to use their skills for real. Modern HEMA tournaments don't look anything like their historical counterparts.  

Sparring rules should a least some of the time, maximally reward the techniques favoured by the system. You reverse engineer the rules to give you the results you want to see.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 11, 2018)

Langenschwert said:


> Sparring rules should a least some of the time, maximally reward the techniques favoured by the system. You reverse engineer the rules to give you the results you want to see.



i am going to derail the thread here but its an old thread.   this point about rule sets is one we hear about a lot.  i think most MMA people dismiss the idea.   my theoretical question is, what would happen in MMA if the rules were changed and there was only 1 round lasting only 1 minute?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am going to derail the thread here but its an old thread.   this point about rule sets is one we hear about a lot.  i think most MMA people dismiss the idea.   my theoretical question is, what would happen in MMA if the rules were changed and there was only 1 round lasting only 1 minute?


It would be hard to get knockouts and almost impossible to get submissions in the allotted time, so fights would almost always go to the judges decision. That means the scoring rules would determine what sort of action you would see.

I would expect the scoring rules would put a heavy emphasis on aggression, because otherwise it would be easy for fights to end with little or no action. In current MMA it's not unusual for the first minute or two to be nothing but the fighters feeling each other out.

Therefore I expect the incentivized behavior would be forward movement, high-volume striking, with maybe some quick takedown attempts. Since knockouts would be uncommon, there would be an emphasis on striking volume (for scoring points) rather than heavy shots.


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## Langenschwert (Jan 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am going to derail the thread here but its an old thread.   this point about rule sets is one we hear about a lot.  i think most MMA people dismiss the idea.   my theoretical question is, what would happen in MMA if the rules were changed and there was only 1 round lasting only 1 minute?



What Tony said. MMA is a duel, and as such there is a long feeling out period since all involved are experienced duelists. You'd have to incentivize by huge bonuses for 30 second knockouts or subs in order to get people to go all out from the starting bell. Not that you'd get many, since everyone is so skilled at defending against those same things, and 30 seconds is not a long time to do any of those things. I don't think it would be very good MMA. Speed chess isn't necessarily good chess.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 11, 2018)

i do not think it would be good for the sport.  it would not be entertaining in my view.  it is something i think about because it shows how a rule set can have a major impact on the outcome.  with only one round lasting a short time, it would really be a push of urgency for the fighters. there would be no feeling out.  "_dont leave it up to the judges"_  would still apply as a mind set.   it would be interesting to actually see how it effected the game. i think there would be a lot more injuries as well.
i do wonder if it would be a better representation of street fighting since its a short burst of giving it all you got and "going for broke"


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 11, 2018)

i have a suspicion that knockouts would be king and submissions would be almost impossible.   fighters would adapt and find the best way to play the game.  it would be interesting


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## Charlemagne (Jan 11, 2018)

Definitely not a fan of WEKAF-type sparring.  If I want to watch a couple of unskilled people not protecting themselves at all, while they hit each other with strikes it's great.  But I don't.  Would you actually do that crap if someone had a baseball bat, a collapsible baton, or a machete?  Probably not, if you wanted to survive the encounter anyway.    






Would you do what is in the video above if you didn't have all that padding and the helmet and if your opponent had a real weapon?  No?  Then dump it.  It's BS.  

Sparring that respects the strike and reflects the manner in which your system actually performs movements is what I am after.  There are way too many examples of training and drilling one way, and then when you go to spar, it all goes out the window and looks like crappy kick boxing, or in the case of weapons, a crappy game of tag.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i have a suspicion that knockouts would be king and submissions would be almost impossible.   fighters would adapt and find the best way to play the game.  it would be interesting


I think it would be a strategic choice between going for high scores with aggressive striking, or building a really good defensive counter-punch game for knockouts. Submissions would pretty much fall into the latter - if the guy gives you a huge opening you take his back quickly and go for the "kill". That would be about as common as finishes with kyokushin kicks are now, I suspect, because of the surprise factor.


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## Charlemagne (Jan 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am going to derail the thread here but its an old thread.   this point about rule sets is one we hear about a lot.  i think most MMA people dismiss the idea.   my theoretical question is, what would happen in MMA if the rules were changed and there was only 1 round lasting only 1 minute?



It would just turn into kickboxing for points.


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## Anarax (Jan 11, 2018)

Personally I think the MMA rules in Pride made more sense. They judged the fight as a whole, rather than using the 10-Point Must scoring system. Meaning, if one guy got destroyed(not finished) in the first round, he couldn't win by playing it safe by out pointing the guy for the remaining rounds. When I see guys who are clearly more damaged than the other but they still win makes little sense.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 11, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Personally I think the MMA rules in Pride made more sense. They judged the fight as a whole, rather than using the 10-Point Must scoring system. Meaning, if one guy got destroyed(not finished) in the first round, he couldn't win by playing it safe by out pointing the guy for the remaining rounds. When I see guys who are clearly more damaged than the other but they still win makes little sense.


I think the problem with the 10 point must system is that most of the range of scores are never used. Most rounds are 10-9, with only the rare 10-8 and even rarer 10-7 for completely dominant rounds. Thus the fighter getting "destroyed" in the first round is only down one or two points. If getting completely beat up resulted in a 10-6 or 10-5 round, things would be rather different.


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## Buka (Jan 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am going to derail the thread here but its an old thread.   this point about rule sets is one we hear about a lot.  i think most MMA people dismiss the idea.   my theoretical question is, what would happen in MMA if the rules were changed and there was only 1 round lasting only 1 minute?



That would be interesting. But then, consider this....

UFC 1. Seven matches. No judges. One round. No time limit.

And what did we have? 12 minutes and 33 seconds of actual fighting time on the whole card.


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## Anarax (Jan 11, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the problem with the 10 point must system is that most of the range of scores are never used. Most rounds are 10-9, with only the rare 10-8 and even rarer 10-7 for completely dominant rounds. Thus the fighter getting "destroyed" in the first round is only down one or two points. If getting completely beat up resulted in a 10-6 or 10-5 round, things would be rather different.



Good point, in the UFC they usually score it 10-9, unless they take a penalty point.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 11, 2018)

Buka said:


> That would be interesting. But then, consider this....
> 
> UFC 1. Seven matches. No judges. One round. No time limit.
> 
> And what did we have? 12 minutes and 33 seconds of actual fighting time on the whole card.



and you get Royce Vs Severan  where they basically layed on the ground for 20 min.

but the key factor in these fights and my original question is the time limit.  in the UFC there was no time limit and what i was asking is the effect of only having one minute to prove yourself.
i got this idea from an 1980's kung fu magazine about the old challenge matches in China. There was a 1 or 2 minute time limit, and that was the quote from the magazine article that in China they believed anyone worth their salt could prove themselves within that time frame.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 11, 2018)

Buka said:


> That would be interesting. But then, consider this....
> 
> UFC 1. Seven matches. No judges. One round. No time limit.
> 
> And what did we have? 12 minutes and 33 seconds of actual fighting time on the whole card.


Part of that was the sharks vs minnows aspect of the early UFC. Most of the fighters didn't know how to be effective in that context and so you ended up with some real mismatches which ended quickly. I think that with todays crop of experienced professional fighters you don't see nearly as many lopsided battles and early stoppages are less likely.


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## donald1 (Jan 12, 2018)

Weapon sparring is pretty good stuff. I like my rokushaku bo the most. Good for distance.


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## Langenschwert (Jan 12, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Part of that was the sharks vs minnows aspect of the early UFC. Most of the fighters didn't know how to be effective in that context and so you ended up with some real mismatches which ended quickly. I think that with todays crop of experienced professional fighters you don't see nearly as many lopsided battles and early stoppages are less likely.



Yup. This led to the era of articles titled "How to Defeat the Gracie Tackle" and the like. As if there was a magic pill to stop a trained grappler asides from learning how to grapple yourself. So many of them didn't know what to do if they got grabbed let alone taken down, making them easy prey for a grappler. 

I admit being slightly nostalgic for old school UFC commentary. My perennial favourite: 

"Where did that tooth go?"

"I think it's under my desk, Jim"

The halcyon days of yore.


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## BrendanF (Jan 13, 2018)

Langenschwert said:


> Yup. This led to the era of articles titled "How to Defeat the Gracie Tackle" and the like. As if there was a magic pill to stop a trained grappler asides from learning how to grapple yourself. So many of them didn't know what to do if they got grabbed let alone taken down, making them easy prey for a grappler.
> 
> I admit being slightly nostalgic for old school UFC commentary. My perennial favourite:
> 
> ...



Poor old superfoot couldn't believe it...


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

To the OP.

I spar with plastic training knives, the edges of which are covered in chalk.  We use plastic core sticks wrapped in thin padding to spar.  Our training with the baston is largely identical to how we fight with swords (though some of the disarms wouldn't work with blades).  

In either case eye/head protection and gloves as appropriate.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> To the OP.
> 
> I spar with plastic training knives, the edges of which are covered in chalk.  We use plastic core sticks wrapped in thin padding to spar.  Our training with the baston is largely identical to how we fight with swords (though some of the disarms wouldn't work with blades).
> 
> In either case eye/head protection and gloves as appropriate.


Do you buy commercial padded sticks, or are they something your instructor made hiimself? I've been looking at some and wondering if any of them are worth buying.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Do you buy commercial padded sticks, or are they something your instructor made hiimself? I've been looking at some and wondering if any of them are worth buying.



We use commercial padded sticks.  I'll check with my instructor where he got them.  They are stupid simple (and thus cheap).  A plastic tube surrounded by maybe .25 to .5 poly foam.  The good things about them are that they STING and will leave a mark, but not injure.  I like that aspect because it forces you to, as we chant constantly, "zone, evade, deflect" as well as attack.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> We use commercial padded sticks.  I'll check with my instructor where he got them.  They are stupid simple (and thus cheap).  A plastic tube surrounded by maybe .25 to .5 poly foam.  The good things about them are that they STING and will leave a mark, but not injure.  I like that aspect because it forces you to, as we chant constantly, "zone, evade, deflect" as well as attack.


Let me know what your instructor says. I'm in the market for a pair of good sparring sticks and most of what I've found are either expensive or of questionable sturdiness.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> We use commercial padded sticks.  I'll check with my instructor where he got them.  They are stupid simple (and thus cheap).  A plastic tube surrounded by maybe .25 to .5 poly foam.  The good things about them are that they STING and will leave a mark, but not injure.  I like that aspect because it forces you to, as we chant constantly, "zone, evade, deflect" as well as attack.


That's what I'm looking for. My current object in that capacity is one of those foam-covered kids' bats. I use it primarily so students will give me a real attack. I let them hit me solidly on the shoulder with it, so they can see it won't actually damage me, then have them attack with some reasonable intent when I'm demonstrating. The aim is to get them all willing to take that same shot (they get those and rib shots from me early on) and to give it to each other, so they can practice with more realism than they'll get when using the old-style police batons or rattan sticks.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 8, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Let me know what your instructor says. I'm in the market for a pair of good sparring sticks and most of what I've found are either expensive or of questionable sturdiness.



It's not super sturdy, but a piece of PVC pipe stuck in a pool noodle is effective, and cheap enough that you won't really care about replacing it. It's too thick to use on something like a staff, but if you're trying to simulate a bat or asp or something of that sort, it works very well. Just leave the noodle off the handle area.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not super sturdy, but a piece of PVC pipe stuck in a pool noodle is effective, and cheap enough that you won't really care about replacing it. It's too thick to use on something like a staff, but if you're trying to simulate a bat or asp or something of that sort, it works very well. Just leave the noodle off the handle area.


Does that hold up under normal sparring?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not super sturdy, but a piece of PVC pipe stuck in a pool noodle is effective, and cheap enough that you won't really care about replacing it. It's too thick to use on something like a staff, but if you're trying to simulate a bat or asp or something of that sort, it works very well. Just leave the noodle off the handle area.


Nice. Hmm...maybe a piece of foam pipe insulation for a slimmer (and less "nice") version.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 8, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Does that hold up under normal sparring?



Reasonably well. It's used by a lot of LARP groups for sparring. Personally, I find the cost vs longevity acceptable. Use thick wall PVC and it'll hold up better. The PVC will usually fail, and in doing so it'll tear the pool noodle. And nobody wants to spar with a floppy pool noodle...



gpseymour said:


> Nice. Hmm...maybe a piece of foam pipe insulation for a slimmer (and less "nice") version.



That works too. I currently have two of these that are reasonably close to the sort of sticks used in Escrima. We use them with adults and (with parents permission) older teens to practice defense against a club. They sting a fair bit, but not too bad, and you can grip them anywhere. 
This is not a large part of our curriculum by any means, and certainly someone with real Escrima (or similar) training would consider our skills really really basic. But lacking an expert, we make do with what we have. I think familiarity with even the most basic of skills and concepts is better than no exposure at all.


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## jks9199 (Feb 8, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the problem with the 10 point must system is that most of the range of scores are never used. Most rounds are 10-9, with only the rare 10-8 and even rarer 10-7 for completely dominant rounds. Thus the fighter getting "destroyed" in the first round is only down one or two points. If getting completely beat up resulted in a 10-6 or 10-5 round, things would be rather different.


That's how 10-point must runs.  Winner of the round gets 10, loser 9... unless someone's lost a point from the ref along the way.  There are generally additional point deductions for knockdowns or rarely in the case of massively dominated rounds -- but generally, the only way to go below 9 is deductions from the ref.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> And nobody wants to spar with a floppy pool noodle...


My PC almost got a coffee bath on that one, DD.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That works too. I currently have two of these that are reasonably close to the sort of sticks used in Escrima. We use them with adults and (with parents permission) older teens to practice defense against a club. They sting a fair bit, but not too bad, and you can grip them anywhere.
> This is not a large part of our curriculum by any means, and certainly someone with real Escrima (or similar) training would consider our skills really really basic. But lacking an expert, we make do with what we have. I think familiarity with even the most basic of skills and concepts is better than no exposure at all.


It sounds like you have a similar approach. My stick skills are pretty thin (some private lessons, but nothing long-term), but they make a nice complement to our defensive work. Better attacks -> better defense. And I want my students to not have the thought I had at brown belt: "If I have a weapon other than a gun or knife, I'm throwing it far away, because I am better equipped for empty hand."


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My PC almost got a coffee bath on that one, DD.



I consider the post a minor success, then. A full success would require the coffee to pass through your nose.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 9, 2018)

Okay, pvc with foam padding will eventually break.  A lot of FMA padded sticks from the Philippines utilize pvc with thin rattan as the core with foam on the outside.  I have had good results with this but eventually they break as well.  Just an fyi...


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 9, 2018)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay, pvc with foam padding will eventually break.  A lot of FMA padded sticks from the Philippines utilize pvc with thin rattan as the core with foam on the outside.  I have had good results with this but eventually they break as well.  Just an fyi...



Pure rattan will break, too, given time. At least the pool noodle version won't hurt so bad when you're training. 
I can see how a rattan core would reinforce the PVC, and make it last longer. It will also make it heavier and increase the impact. That may or may not be an acceptable trade off for the longer lifespan.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay, pvc with foam padding will eventually break.  A lot of FMA padded sticks from the Philippines utilize pvc with thin rattan as the core with foam on the outside.  I have had good results with this but eventually they break as well.  Just an fyi...


I was thinking of spraying Great Stuff (expanding foam) into the PVC for stability. What think you?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 9, 2018)

If I am sparring I want people to feel it but not be injured!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I was thinking of spraying Great Stuff (expanding foam) into the PVC for stability. What think you?



Might work but I would probably just buy a product as I feel it would last longer in the end and save you money that way.


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## Anarax (Feb 9, 2018)

Keep in mind you're going to have to purchase stiffer padded sticks if you want to be able to execute disarms, chokes and locks, in sparring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 10, 2018)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Might work but I would probably just buy a product as I feel it would last longer in the end and save you money that way.


Yeah, but where's the fun and adventure in that, Brian??

Seriously, I'm mostly thinking building a few would let me try some different sizes and see what seems best suited. Then if there's a good product about that size, that's perfect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 10, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Keep in mind you're going to have to purchase stiffer padded sticks if you want to be able to execute disarms, chokes and locks, in sparring.


Yeah, I've even considered just putting pipe insulation around rattan as one option.

I really need a location with in-room storage. Sigh.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2018)

Even the actual commercially made stuff, like the foam batons for police training, can break. Those are usually a fiberglass or something similar rod inside layers of foam. Personally, pipe insulation or the pool noodle (kind of thick, though, for gripping) around PVC and or around the wooden stick to best I've found if you're going to work sticks with each other. Also... armor.  It's hard to work a really long stick, but you have to kind of have some sort of trade off. If you want it soft enough not to do serious damage, you have to make it thick enough for the phone to do the job, but you want to keep it thin enough to handle almost the same he can't cover was much foam.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Juany118 (Feb 11, 2018)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay, pvc with foam padding will eventually break.  A lot of FMA padded sticks from the Philippines utilize pvc with thin rattan as the core with foam on the outside.  I have had good results with this but eventually they break as well.  Just an fyi...



They all eventually break I believe, that's I believe the cost of having something that is intended to be used at l, or near, full speed but not injure your partner.


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