# The eternal dilemma and Style question of Karate (Sorry to ask again)



## Gyuki (Mar 25, 2022)

At the risk of being redundant I will ask again. I have asked peoples privately about this and had no replies. It seems it is a question that is also asked a lot but I am looking for specifics in regards to high rank Chito Ryu Karate and how they do it. 

Do you have any knowledge on the style Chito Ryu? Not necessairly the historical aspects of it or anything but do you know how they train on higher levels? Or whether their higher ranked individuals can handle continual sparring with no issue...

I am asking in all honesty and sincerety as I am considering a different path for myself based on the limited experience I had with the way of approach seems to be. But I also feel like I shouldn't give up right away only after only a very limited experience. I have had "better" times in another school that I didn't stay at for other reasons.

I am just not sure if in the end the system is geared more towards Kata with no substancial and or realistic practice of them or tournament sparring (which does not seem to be the case of that school altought they do mention taking part in some sort of tournament) but that may be only at a higher level...

I am highly considering a Kyokushin school but I have came to appreciate one specific instructor and I think I like his vision of Karate and where it may take someone. I am simply not sure if he is in a system that actually promote the way I wish for my practice to be despite having that understanding himself the system I see may be restraining in a way....

I am definitely uncertain as per how to proceed. I sure will give a try to the Kyokushin dojo before leaving where I am now. I also wish to give myself an honest try in Chito Ryu before taking the decision to leave a great Sensei.

So I ask, if you have any recommedation or insight on Chito Ryu and their higher level people (as the information online seems very limited compared to many other flavour of Karate...) may you please share it with me.


Thank you for your advice. In an ideal world I would be able to have the same Sensei but in a different style. That would be perfection, but that is not of this world....


----------



## Buka (Mar 25, 2022)

The greatest thing in life a person can have is.......a choice.

So, what _might_ work best for you is to go to different schools/styles over the next six months to a year. Watch a few classes, then sign up for a few months. Once that's behind you, you'll have a clearer vision of what you want.

Of course there's the chance that some of the places may close, if so, start again.

Worry less, train more, apply ice when needed.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 25, 2022)

I know a high ranking Yoshukai teacher.  Yoshukai is an off-shoot of Chito-ryu.  They train pretty much like I do in Goju-ryu and like I imagine most other Okinawan karate styles do with kata as a heavy focus with some body hardening methods and kobudo.  Do you have a specific question?

I will add that if you are unhappy with a lot of time spent on kata, I think kyokushin would be a better fit for you.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 25, 2022)

dancingalone said:


> I know a high ranking Yoshukai teacher.  Yoshukai is an off-shoot of Chito-ryu.  They train pretty much like I do in Goju-ryu and like I imagine most other Okinawan karate styles do with kata as a heavy focus with some body hardening methods and kobudo.  Do you have a specific question?
> 
> I will add that if you are unhappy with a lot of time spent on kata, I think kyokushin would be a better fit for you.


I think this is where my heart is going... Kata is not my forte presently. I understand them and their importance.... 
And from what I understood Yoshukai is the more combative of the 2 between Chito and Yoshukai... so that is not really what I want...
Bunkai is great when done properly and with resistance but I have seen none of that but only compliance for those things. As if they are learning them for an exam or presenting them, not to save their life....

Thanks a lot for the input.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 25, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Bunkai is great when done properly and with resistance but I have seen none of that but only compliance for those things. As if they are learning them for an exam or presenting them, not to save their life....


Not many in karate train that way, unfortunately.  I have been a teacher for decades now and honestly I would say not many students actually want that either.  People want to exercise, learn a little self-defense, and immerse a bit into another culture.  

But I think you should really look around and consider what you want out of a martial art (it doesn't have to be karate).  Kyokushin has a heavy focus on tournament sparring and that is not exactly fighting or self-defense/life preservation either if those things are what you seek.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 25, 2022)

You can't just tell from looking at the specific school you are interested in? 

Personally I think karate schools that are successfully crossing over in to combat sports would be more applicable to you.

And generally you can tell when you walk in to the school and see a bunch of belts or trophies or high profile fighters somewhere.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 25, 2022)

dancingalone said:


> Not many in karate train that way, unfortunately.  I have been a teacher for decades now and honestly I would say not many students actually want that either.  People want to exercise, learn a little self-defense, and immerse a bit into another culture.
> 
> But I think you should really look around and consider what you want out of a martial art (it doesn't have to be karate).  Kyokushin has a heavy focus on tournament sparring and that is not exactly fighting or self-defense/life preservation either if those things are what you seek.


I feel like it seems the most appropriate trade off. I did Krav Maga before (lot more oriented on self defense) and I think I had many issues with the curriculum when it came to weapon defense. Not that they specifically do not work, that they are not drilled seriously enough and often enough to be effective or second nature if the need arises... I felt it was a lost of time to train students to actually be competent fighters then giving them extra pipe dream of even more complicated defense when they fail a simple choke defense 2 times out of 5... 

I liked the live drills and how that aspect was done. I can hope to find at least 1 likeminded student that will be intent on going a bit harder on the SD drills they have, but I think the combat aspect of Kyokushin will satisfy me in various ways.

It is sad that most Karate practitionner have basically lost the essence/reason to be for Karate. As much as I like the dipping in other culture, I also feel it is important that it remains true to its nature of Self Defense.... 

Laughing at your name as I seem to be the one dancing alone now haha. I want to apparently bring back the harshness and toughness Karate has been known for. Bring back the effectiveness and live drills with uncooperating partners. But yes, it seems indeed I am alone in this endeavour or there are very few of us and far between.....

And bizzarely, it may be the cultural aspect but I want it to be done in Karate. I may just be stubborn....


----------



## Damien (Mar 27, 2022)

If there is no indication that any sparring or non-passive drilling happens in a school, it probably doesn't. I mean beginners classes will obviously be very different, but if you ask someone in more advanced classes what they do and it never comes up, it probably doesn't happen much.

I would reach out to the instructor of the club and just ask what training is like as you progress, see what they say. If they are evasive, it's probably not the place for you.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 27, 2022)

Damien said:


> If there is no indication that any sparring or non-passive drilling happens in a school, it probably doesn't. I mean beginners classes will obviously be very different, but if you ask someone in more advanced classes what they do and it never comes up, it probably doesn't happen much.
> 
> I would reach out to the instructor of the club and just ask what training is like as you progress, see what they say. If they are evasive, it's probably not the place for you.


II


Damien said:


> If there is no indication that any sparring or non-passive drilling happens in a school, it probably doesn't. I mean beginners classes will obviously be very different, but if you ask someone in more advanced classes what they do and it never comes up, it probably doesn't happen much.
> 
> I would reach out to the instructor of the club and just ask what training is like as you progress, see what they say. If they are evasive, it's probably not the place for you.


I dealt with one of those today... Was kinda funny and kinda sad.  The person flat out refused to answer such questions via email...
Its pretty simple, either your school spars or they don't. 

One thing ive noticed as well is the speed at which Karate instructors will put down MMA or Krav Maga as an exemple as they are newer forms of art and they might see it as competition... If I walk in a dojo its because I want to do Karate. It almost makes me want to go try MMA the amount of times ive been told oh this is not MMA here, we do it like that. Or MMA guys are brutes we use class and refinement and blah blah blah. 

I dislike the downselling of other arts. I know what I want. I may look like the profile MMA person as I am in my mid 30s and am in shape. But if its Karate I am here for I just dislike the we are not xyz. I dont care about xyz show me what YOU got. And that is where it usually falls flat. 

Bizzarely instructors are afraid of people wanting to learn Karate. Which is understandable if your normal base consist of people wanting to break a sweat and do something other then stay home.... They dont want someone ruining their class and I ger and respect that. But they shouldnt be afraid to answer questions. That way I understand its not a place for me and move on to somewhere else.

They still want me to try it... It's useless to try something I know is not for me and I may disturb other students with a dose of reality. I am not there for that. 

I just want to learn true Karate...



Luckily I also found a Kofukan school that seems to understand me. We shall see. Im trying Kyokushin tomorrow.


----------



## Damien (Mar 28, 2022)

Best of luck, I hope you settle somewhere that suits you.

It is a shame when instructors can't be honest. Different people train for different reasons, and teachers don't have to cater for every student. Some just want to learn the art, some want to learn to fight, some just want to get fit, and that is all OK. 

Sure you might get some brutes in MMA type schools, but you get them elsewhere too. Anyone who trains MMA without refining their skills isn't going to last long against someone their own size.

I think the really sad thing is that these people don't want to admit that they don't know how to use their art. You don't have to be the greatest fighter around, I know I'm not, but I do use it. The base from which I spar is Sanda, but I incorporate a lot of my traditional kung fu, using a different stance, different guards, kicks and punches and strategies that aren't in standard kickboxing etc. It's OK that sparring ends up looking like normal kickboxing- it's designed for close quarters one to one evenly matched fights, many traditional styles are not for those situations; it's more about longer ranges, disparity in intent, defending oneself etc. When someone fails to incorporate anything from their style effectively though, you know they don't understand it.

It's like all those "fake kung fu masters" that kept getting beaten up a few years back. It's not that they didn't know martial arts in a lot of cases, its that they had never tried to apply it in a consensual one to one fight environment, which ultimately means they can't apply it properly in any situation. It's not the style or the practitioner, its the training that's the problem. But again it's fine to train that way, just be honest about it and don't claim you can beat anyone in a fight.

Anyway rant over! 😂


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 29, 2022)

Damien said:


> Best of luck, I hope you settle somewhere that suits you.
> 
> It is a shame when instructors can't be honest. Different people train for different reasons, and teachers don't have to cater for every student. Some just want to learn the art, some want to learn to fight, some just want to get fit, and that is all OK.
> 
> ...


Or maybe I'm the lazy one and would prefer for schools to advertise properly and say what they are. When your ad says learn Karate but it's literally a day camp for kids with a Karate flavour and afterwards turns into a half karate half kickboxing full tai bo after 7pm then please advertise as such.
If you are a group of people bent on Kata and traditions, forms and ensuring the system remains true to the creator then advertise as a Okinawan Re enactment class inspired by Karate. 

Im but disgusted by how the name is thrown around left and right for promotion and marketing of businesses that have an Japanese martial art sprinkle on top. 

Bizzare thing is that these people all boast qualifications up the waazoo (which makes me wonder the legitimacy of many systems) yet still wont even come close to actual martial situation (combat or even proper demos with resistance).

Karate definitely is not alone in that boat but seems to unfortunately be the one used the most for such practices.


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 29, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> At the risk of being redundant I will ask again. I have asked peoples privately about this and had no replies. It seems it is a question that is also asked a lot but I am looking for specifics in regards to high rank Chito Ryu Karate and how they do it.
> 
> Do you have any knowledge on the style Chito Ryu? Not necessairly the historical aspects of it or anything but do you know how they train on higher levels? Or whether their higher ranked individuals can handle continual sparring with no issue...
> 
> ...


First thing that comes to mind is, first decide what you what most: doing forms or self defense techniques. Once you know that, then pick your art accordingly.


----------



## Damien (Mar 29, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Or maybe I'm the lazy one and would prefer for schools to advertise properly and say what they are. When your ad says learn Karate but it's literally a day camp for kids with a Karate flavour and afterwards turns into a half karate half kickboxing full tai bo after 7pm then please advertise as such.
> If you are a group of people bent on Kata and traditions, forms and ensuring the system remains true to the creator then advertise as a Okinawan Re enactment class inspired by Karate.
> 
> Im but disgusted by how the name is thrown around left and right for promotion and marketing of businesses that have an Japanese martial art sprinkle on top.
> ...


I still think it's fine to advertise as Karate, but be very clear in your marketing what your focus is. Even back in the day different teachers and students would have had different interests and preferences within martial arts. That's how you get very health focussed arts developing. But people have to be honest with themselves and with others.

I think it is fair to say that if you teach a martial art which is supposed to be martial and don't address live martial situations, you are not teaching the full art, and it does lose something. It's why you see all the talk online about traditional martial arts being fake, or that they're dead, because so many don't seek to understand and apply what they are practicing. I didn't think about it before, but coincidentally I'm actually working on a video right now about the idea of traditional martial arts being dead, and how with the right approach and a bit of modernity they don't have to be. Hopefully out this weekend.

Unfortunately I think a lot of systems have qualifications that mean little. In some styles a black belt comes in a couple of years, others 5 or more. Some styles go up to 400th degree black belt super grand master professor god tier, others don't even have formal ranks beyond teacher and student. Ultimately nothing is comparable, and they say nothing of what they've learnt or how good they are. One could get a 2nd degree black belt for being amazing at kata and knowing all the basics, another for being a great teacher, another for being the best fighter in the dojo. All are legitimate routes, but the belt and qualification tell you little. It's like having a degree, you could be an expert practicing in the field, or you could have done it for fun, taken all the theoretical courses and then never looked at the topic again.

I don't think it is 100% always the instructors fault though, if they were never taught application, how can they be expected to teach it? Without it a certain critical and inquisitive mind is required if you're to tease out the gold that lies hidden in these traditional styles I feel.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 29, 2022)

Damien said:


> I still think it's fine to advertise as Karate, but be very clear in your marketing what your focus is. Even back in the day different teachers and students would have had different interests and preferences within martial arts. That's how you get very health focussed arts developing. But people have to be honest with themselves and with others.
> 
> I think it is fair to say that if you teach a martial art which is supposed to be martial and don't address live martial situations, you are not teaching the full art, and it does lose something. It's why you see all the talk online about traditional martial arts being fake, or that they're dead, because so many don't seek to understand and apply what they are practicing. I didn't think about it before, but coincidentally I'm actually working on a video right now about the idea of traditional martial arts being dead, and how with the right approach and a bit of modernity they don't have to be. Hopefully out this weekend.
> 
> ...


Where can one see your video essays? Very interesting subject and one that I seem to agree with 100%. And yes I may seem to take it upon myself to bring that back in Karate where I live at least.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 29, 2022)

That is pretty much what I am looking for in advanced students in regards to power and efficiency. 

There is no combat per say but from that short video I can assume they know how to handle themselves...


----------



## isshinryuronin (Mar 29, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> That is pretty much what I am looking for in advanced students in regards to power and efficiency.
> 
> There is no combat per say but from that short video I can assume they know how to handle themselves...


I believe this type of training is of much greater value than the normal sparring one finds in a dojo.  It is not sport, but rather good practice for inflicting powerful damage in an actual conflict.  Similar to the training I've done over the past few years.


----------



## Damien (Mar 29, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Where can one see your video essays? Very interesting subject and one that I seem to agree with 100%. And yes I may seem to take it upon myself to bring that back in Karate where I live at least.


I post all my videos here: http://www.youtube.com/c/kungfit

I'll share the link to that specific video once it's up. Feel free to watch all my others through to the end though (it's all about the watch time) 

The guys in that video you posted definitely had a lot of power and were pretty fluid. Interesting to see a few of them do their rear hand punch in a similar way to xie xing in kung fu, using the opposite hand thrown backwards for balance, rather than just pulled back.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 29, 2022)

Damien said:


> I post all my videos here: http://www.youtube.com/c/kungfit
> 
> I'll share the link to that specific video once it's up. Feel free to watch all my others through to the end though (it's all about the watch time)
> 
> The guys in that video you posted definitely had a lot of power and were pretty fluid. Interesting to see a few of them do their rear hand punch in a similar way to xie xing in kung fu, using the opposite hand thrown backwards for balance, rather than just pulled back.


Thank you very much!! You have a new subscriber haha!
I definitely will comment a lot and be quite interactive even if Kung Fu is not the art I study. I probably will have tons of questions.

And yes, what is in there is how I want to learn, definitely people who understand Karate the way I do


----------



## Damien (Mar 30, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Thank you very much!! You have a new subscriber haha!
> I definitely will comment a lot and be quite interactive even if Kung Fu is not the art I study. I probably will have tons of questions.
> 
> And yes, what is in there is how I want to learn, definitely people who understand Karate the way I do


Haha, no problem. Always happy to answer any questions.


----------



## Damien (Mar 30, 2022)

Haha, no p


Gyuki said:


> Thank you very much!! You have a new subscriber haha!
> I definitely will comment a lot and be quite interactive even if Kung Fu is not the art I study. I probably will have tons of questions.
> 
> And yes, what is in there is how I want to learn, definitely people who understand Karate the way I do


Haha, no problem. Always happy to answer any questions.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 30, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> II
> 
> I dealt with one of those today... Was kinda funny and kinda sad.  The person flat out refused to answer such questions via email...
> Its pretty simple, either your school spars or they don't.
> ...



Do kudo.


----------



## Gyuki (Mar 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Do kudo.


I wish it was available around here...  Ottawa is a bit limited in options. And i unfortunately do not drive or I would be willing to travel up to 2 hours by car for a place a truly want. I do more then that by public transport for something I kinda accept...


----------



## Damien (Mar 30, 2022)

I saw this today:





Not sure if I completely agree with him, but I get what he's saying. Better to do something than nothing basically, so long as you enjoy it.

I do think there are limits though. I wanted to spend more time sparring when I moved to Sydney and I didn't want to learn a new style of traditional martial art, so I didn't go to the nearest club. I picked one that met my goals. Sure I may still have had fun at kung fu school X or Karate school Y, and maybe even found some people with a more similar outlook to me, but it wasn't what I really wanted.


----------



## Damien (Apr 2, 2022)

As promised, here's the link to my new video about traditional martial arts being dead- or not if you do it right! I talk a bit about training in general, and forms.

I seem to be on a run of movie themed videos at the moment. Entirely accidental, just ideas that I happened to have during planning them. Maybe it should be my new thing!? 🤷‍♂️


----------

