# Too Intellectual????



## Hand Sword

My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.

Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.

So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.

Thoughts???


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## donnaTKD

i think traditional arts are on the wane cos of things like olympic sports like tkd, judo and then the rise of muay thai and mma - these are seen by a lot of people as the new "in" thing - the latest craze if you like.

a few months ago i wanted to study trad tkd and was told over and over again that they only taught sport tkd - people want to go to the olympics and stuff.  where i live trad styles are a dying breed unfortunately 

i think that the trad styles are more easy going to people and when someone sees you practicing it's like they remember that move from a movie and stuff --- also it appears to be less violent and so more people enjoy watching it but it's sport tkd that puts bums on seats in a mcdojo


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## drop bear

MMA is not only not instantly gratifying. But probably one of the least gratifying martial arts.you can do.

Sort of. 

People think MMA is like this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIiXPBm_bE

With parties and fights and that it is something cool kids do. Look cool kids play ball sports. Not MMA.

MMA is some sweaty guy sitting on top of you punching you in The face. Day in day out. With no food and no social life. The only gratification you get is doing something truly difficult.


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## tshadowchaser

Perhaps the "SAFE" way that Kenpo is taught today seems more orientated to families and not to those that want the high that comes form the violence of pounding someone. 
As with many of the arts that are taught today people do not realize that the violence is controlled for the sake of reaching more people to train in a less violent environment.  
I think Kenpo and the other traditional arts will be around for a long time and MMA will be much as boxing is, being looked at as a blood sport,and perhaps a way for the disadvantaged to make some money.


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## Blindside

Hand Sword said:


> My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.
> 
> Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.
> 
> So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.
> 
> Thoughts???



I don't do kenpo anymore.  I spent 12 years studying it, had a great time, got to be a full instructor (3rd black) and am quite happy with the skills I learned from it, but I don't practice it anymore.  

I didn't swap kenpo for MMA, I now do Kali another traditional art.  Why the switch?  For me the simplest reason is that I saw a fundamental dichotomy in the presentation of the art, the training techniques don't look anything like what happens in application against a reasonably skilled opponent.  Kenpoists generally look like kickboxers when they spar, usually not very good ones.  My kenpo instructor is a very very good figher, but it wasn't all the reps of Technique X that got him there.  And I will agree that sparring is not real life but neither are stone statue attackers reachng out with a weak push or attacking with a lunge punch.  When I train in kali I see a logical progression and relationship between the fundamentals, drills, techniques, and sparring.  When I spar with an opponent I look like I train.  

Why?  Because the training methodology includes resistance from an opponent from an early period.  We start with cooperative drilling, then introducing a "technique" and get a bunch of reps in, then the feeder will start trying to counter the technique, and the receiver needs to deal with it.  As skill level grows, the drills move from cooperative, to less cooperative, to contested, to full sparring.    

For me, the really interesting thing between kali and kenpo, is that there is something like a 90% overlap in physical execution of technique.  With a little tweaking I could teach kenpo through the kali training methodology, it wouldn't involve 150 training techniques and the forms would go away and it wouldn't be the kenpo that I learned, but the physical SD skills would be there.  The guys wouldn't know the proper routine of stomping a guy into a mudhole like Dance of Death, but I bet they could figure an effective equivalent should the situation require it.

Anyway, it is about efficiency in training for me.


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## hoshin1600

why sit there pondering the workings of the universe. if you want to know what MMA practioners think of kempo why not just ask them.  if you want to know why they picked MMA over traditional arts, ask.  more likely than not the answer will be similar to Blindsides answer.  
my answer....MMA is like a custom chopper, its cool, its power, its real.  traditional arts and more so kempo is like a moped.  it will get you somwhere but it takes to long and you dont want your friends seeing you on it.

and yes it can be to intellectual. fighting is not an academic persuit.  its adrenalin, emotion, violent and primal.  you dont care about the 108 combinations and 50+ kata and the universal pattern when some guy  is monkey stoping on your head till your green filling oozes out your ears.


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## drop bear

OK fighting and intellectual pursuits.

You are competing physically and mentally against other people. That is the game of fighting. The monkey stomping only happens after you have worked your way though the other guys defence and tactics and prevented him from getting through yours.

This is a system that is over engendered and over complicated. The more you delve into the tactics and techniques of fighting the more you realise that the system itself has these endless depths of intellectual pursuit.

Eg. Not many techniques.

Here is 51 guard sweeps. Now for self defence you could get away with one guard sweep. I know and practice around three at my level. And get away with that. At the top of their game 51 guard sweeps.

The reason is the other guy is not coming at you after having spent time on his tough face. He has been practising guard sweep defences. So now you need an option when your primary sweep does not work.

There is no end to the learning testing and re learning that occurs in preparation for a competitive art. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cxc6uoaso7Q

Fighting is as complicated as the other guy.


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## Hand Sword

:boing1:


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## Hand Sword

Maybe it's the other way around. The TMA's are too intellectual for today's instant gratifiers.


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## drop bear

Hand Sword said:


> Maybe it's the other way around. The TMA's are too intellectual for today's instant gratifiers.




OK I think you are missing one factor here. You can be intellectual and physical. This nerd/jock thing is a fairly recent development.



[h=1]&#8220;No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.&#8221;[/h]
&#8213; Socrates


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## Touch Of Death

drop bear said:


> OK I think you are missing one factor here. You can be intellectual and physical. This nerd/jock thing is a fairly recent development.
> 
> 
> 
> *No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.*
> 
> 
> &#8213; Socrates


It is really how the art gets broken down. We used to teach 154 techs with a common theme, but now we teach the common theme, and let them discover the techs for themselves. 
Sean


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> It is really how the art gets broken down. We used to teach 154 techs with a common theme, but now we teach the common theme, and let them discover the techs for themselves.
> Sean



The issue with that is a lot of high percentage movements are not necessarily intuitive. A lot of wrestling is like that.


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## donald1

I don't know much about kenpo or kempo I've met a kenpo instructor or at least his pants leg said kenpo and he owned his dojo but I do think this is problematic perhaps it's an large percent.  But then again a lot of people like the stuff in the movies not the actual effects moves but the ones that look fancy.  A lot of kids these days don't want to sit in horse stance and practice strikes they would probably want to do some kind of tiger/dragon spinning side kick.
As for ufc or mma I'm not sure what the craze is.  I can't say I understand why but my perspective on those two are low and the only thing I know about them is when I see them on tv and personally it just doesn't seem interesting.  I like all about martial arts but when it comes to competition its not really that important to me.
I like traditional it has more to learn from has variety of techniques to learn and a long history to learn about as well


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## Xue Sheng

Hand Sword said:


> Maybe it's the other way around. The TMA's are too intellectual for today's instant gratifiers.



Today's TMA maybe but old school stuff is still all about training. Reading is nice, understanding the history of your art is nice to but neither replace training


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## hoshin1600

MMA is more popular than TMA and kenpo because it is self evident.  either i can knock you out or i cant.  either i can submit you or you submit me.  i know for a fact that my techniques work or not because you are REALLY  trying to stop me and i am REALLY trying to break your arm.  it is real. it may not be real self defense but it is real application of technique.  people today are smart enough to smell BS a mile away.  the old cop out of ..well i could "do this" and "do this"  but im a super duper grand pubar master and you would get hurt.  it just isnt going to fly anymore.  
gone are the days when a student walks into the dojo and gives the teacher instant unquestioned loyalty, respect and belives everything he says.  the internet changed everything.  we can look up your phony rank. we can look up who your teachers were and the history of your made up style (not picking on anyone here im just being hypothetical)  there are no skeletons in the closet anymore.  hidding your poor skills behind some convoluted rank and belt doesnt work.  you will be called out, you will be found out and you will be ignored buy the next generation.  Bas Rutten said it well.. the difference between the dojo and reality is like walking on a 2x4   when its on the ground its no problem, put that same 2x4 30 stories up in the air and walking across that 2x4 is an entire different story and either you can do it or you cant.
answer... stop the exersize in mental masturbation and work out,, get good, and stop whinning.   
_"people vote with their feet"
Sam Walton_


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## Kung Fu Wang

The major difference between the TMA and MMA is in

- TMA, people try to map form into applications.
- MMA, people try to map application back into drills.

In one thread discussion that people argue whether "foot sweep" exist in the WC system or not. That's the TMA way of thinking. Whatever that you do, you are not suppose to violate the principle of your style. A more open minded TMA guy will think that if "foot sweep" works, he would like to train it. If "foot sweep" is not in his forms, he may just add it into his form so the future generation won't have to go through this argument again.

The MMA guy will just put "foot sweep" into his toolbox. Since he doesn't have to be loyal to any particular style, all those discussion will never happen.

TMA such as the Kempo system still have the "style boundary". To me, that's the limitation.


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## Touch Of Death

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The major difference between the TMA and MMA is in
> 
> - TMA, people try to map form into applications.
> - MMA, people try to map application back into drills.
> 
> In one thread discussion that people argue whether "foot sweep" exist in the WC forms or not. That's the TMA way of thinking. Whatever that you do, you are not suppose to violate the principle of your style. A more open minded TMA guy will think that if "foot sweep" works, he would like to train it. If "foot sweep" is not in his forms, he may just add it into his form so the future generation won't have to go through this argument again.
> 
> The MMA guy will just put "foot sweep" into his toolbox. Since he doesn't have to be loyal to any particular style, all those discussion will never happen.
> 
> TMA such as the Kempo system still have the "style boundary". To me, that's the limitation.


Stepping forward or backward can be a foot sweep.


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> Stepping forward or backward can be a foot sweep.



He is right in the general principle though. The moves are drilled in the way they are used with resistance. So as a movement changes from form to application. Instead of the form being right the application is right.

So this is how ippon seoi nage looks.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DU1MeWp3D9A

Here is how it looks resisted.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QB5HTDDg6cQ

The difference is that the resisted version is drilled.


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## MattofSilat

You could say that. Or too lazy.

We can't be bothered with principles like honor or discipline, just get through the day and sit on your *** is the life of many.

That life sure as hell ain't for me. Not to say I don't love Rock Jumping or Scuba Diving, I don't like sitting on my *** for the sake of it.


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## MattofSilat

I consider myself to be quite loyal, but that sure as hell does not lead to limitations. If I think my style lacks something, I'll add what I think it lacks. That is how evolution occurs. Too many people believe that honor means change cannot occur.


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## Hand Sword

True. Consider all of the founders, they all learned something, then went to the Chinese styles for additions to their liking. (The old Karate masters too)


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## Kung Fu Wang

Touch Of Death said:


> Stepping forward or backward can be a foot sweep.


Which kind of "foot sweep" are you talking about?

The one that you use your "inner foot edge" to sweep in front of your opponent's "instep"? This is a "circular" foot sweep.






or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.


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## Touch Of Death

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which kind of "foot sweep" are you talking about?
> 
> The one that you use your "inner foot edge" to sweep in front of your opponent's "instep"? This is a "circular" foot sweep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.


I don't have a weird name for you, but it involves taking you opponent on from his side; so, you would front cover to 11:00 or that person's 1:00 with your lead leg, however, you penguin toe that step in the direction you want to go, and then move you body and back leg around, and then simply step forward and through your opponent's leg. (This is called Back Breaker for you kenpo types)


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## AIKIKENJITSU

hoshin1600 said:


> why sit there pondering the workings of the universe. if you want to know what MMA practioners think of kempo why not just ask them.  if you want to know why they picked MMA over traditional arts, ask.  more likely than not the answer will be similar to Blindsides answer.
> my answer....MMA is like a custom chopper, its cool, its power, its real.  traditional arts and more so kempo is like a moped.  it will get you somwhere but it takes to long and you dont want your friends seeing you on it.
> 
> and yes it can be to intellectual. fighting is not an academic persuit.  its adrenalin, emotion, violent and primal.  you dont care about the 108 combinations and 50+ kata and the universal pattern when some guy  is monkey stoping on your head till your green filling oozes out your ears.



There's a purpose and a place for everything.
Sifu


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## Dirty Dog

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> There's a purpose and a place for everything.
> Sifu



I don't know about that... personally, I do not think there's any place for pineapple on pizza. 
Some things are just wrong.


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## K-man

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't know about that... personally, I do not think there's any place for pineapple on pizza.
> Some things are just wrong.


I'd rather have pineapple than anchovies!


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## Dirty Dog

K-man said:


> I'd rather have pineapple than anchovies!



Now, see, that's like saying "I'd rather be poked in the eye with a sharp stick than a knitting needle".


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## Marnetmar

I'm not really sure how perceiving an art a certain way without having any experience with it is intellectual.


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## Mephisto

Blindside nailed it. Many tma looks nothing like its trained in action, the tma guys complain about MMA because they are threatened by it. Systems that teach deadly techniques like kenpo are calling mma brutal? This is fighting, everyone should quit comparing and go train, give mma it's credit and move on. IF you want the popularity of mma go into a gym and beat some of their fighters. A lot of styles want the respect that fighters get without actually fighting. They hide behind the street vs sport argument. As has been said, mma is a method to prove effectiveness under pressure, in reality an attacker reacts and resists your defense at random. If the majority of your time is spent training against prescribed attacks with sequences of counters on a compliant opponent, you're not training for reality. Mma is one of the most popular methods to approach the reality of combat. It's not the only way but it's a popular tried and true way to learn how to fight. Quit hating kenpo guys, maybe the problem is you. Your system came from rough and tumble roots, than you tamed it down to spread popularity, but taming it down is never a way to build a solid reputation in a community of fighters.


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## K-man

Mephisto said:


> Blindside nailed it. Many tma looks nothing like its trained in action, the tma guys complain about MMA because they are threatened by it. Systems that teach deadly techniques like kenpo are calling mma brutal? This is fighting, everyone should quit comparing and go train, give mma it's credit and move on. IF you want the popularity of mma go into a gym and beat some of their fighters. A lot of styles want the respect that fighters get without actually fighting. They hide behind the street vs sport argument. As has been said, mma is a method to prove effectiveness under pressure, in reality an attacker reacts and resists your defense at random. If the majority of your time is spent training against prescribed attacks with sequences of counters on a compliant opponent, you're not training for reality. Mma is one of the most popular methods to approach the reality of combat. It's not the only way but it's a popular tried and true way to learn how to fight. Quit hating kenpo guys, maybe the problem is you. Your system came from rough and tumble roots, than you tamed it down to spread popularity, but taming it down is never a way to build a solid reputation in a community of fighters.


Well for me I have never heard any TMA guys bag MMA, or BJJ for that matter. I have heard many MMA or BJJ guys bagging TMAs. MMA has proven itself to be a popular sport, that's all. If I wanted to compete in the ring I would go and train BJJ to complement my other training and perhaps some MT. But, I have no intention of doing that and I have no problem with MMA being what it is. Why do MMA and BJJ guys always have to tell other people how good their style is? Don't know if it's anything to do with intellectual or more just insecurity. 

I'm not threatened by anything I see in other MA training. I might recognise other forms of training to be more appropriate for competition but nothing more. We had a couple of young guys came sauntering in one night telling everyone that they were training _jujitsu, _by which they meant BJJ, and that they wanted to see what we were doing. I invited them onto the mat and asked them to do what ever took their fancy. Nothing they tried worked and they walked out rather sheepishly. Just because you train MMA or BJJ doesn't suddenly make you invincible.
:asian:


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## Tames D

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't know about that... personally, I do not think there's any place for pineapple on pizza.
> Some things are just wrong.



I absolutely agree with this. The only thing worse than pineapple on pizza is the 10 year old TKD blackbelt.


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## Paul_D

I don't really think there that much difference between TMA & MMA.  The problems comes (form TMA's perspective) when it comes to presentation.

Imagine you are an 18 year old man that has just started drinking in pubs, and being on the small side you want to learn a few things in case you get into trouble.  So you walk into a TMA club, and you see people learning to defend against attacks that you have never seen anyone, anywhere attacked with ever (i.e. oi-tsuki).

Then the next day you go check out an MMA club, and you see people attacking with (and defending against) attacks which look exactly like the violence you see in or around pubs on a weekend.

Which of these arts will look more like real violence, and therefore seem to be the most likely for the person to take up?

The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian  violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.  

TMA needs a make over, thre is plenty of information out their if you want to find it, there rally is no excuse in this day an age for any instructor to be sticking with oi-tsuki if they have the words self defence on their website.


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## K-man

Paul_D said:


> I don't really think there that much difference between TMA & MMA.  The problems comes (form TMA's perspective) when it comes to presentation.
> 
> Imagine you are an 18 year old man that has just started drinking in pubs, and being on the small side you want to learn a few things in case you get into trouble.  So you walk into a TMA club, and you see people learning to defend against attacks that you have never seen anyone, anywhere attacked with ever (i.e. oi-tsuki).
> 
> Then the next day you go check out an MMA club, and you see people attacking with (and defending against) attacks which look exactly like the violence you see in or around pubs on a weekend.
> 
> Which of these arts will look more like real violence, and therefore seem to be the most likely for the person to take up?
> 
> The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian  violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.
> 
> TMA needs a make over, thre is plenty of information out their if you want to find it, there rally is no excuse in this day an age for any instructor to be sticking with oi-tsuki if they have the words self defence on their website.


Perhaps you should check out some TMA schools that teach realistic martial art. *All* of out training is against realistic attacks. As I say to all my guys, "if you can't use anything I teach in a pub brawl I will take it out of the curriculum". Haven't had to take anything out yet.
:asian:


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## Tez3

Paul_D said:


> I don't really think there that much difference between TMA & MMA.  The problems comes (form TMA's perspective) when it comes to presentation.
> 
> Imagine you are an 18 year old man that has just started drinking in pubs, and being on the small side you want to learn a few things in case you get into trouble.  So you walk into a TMA club, and you see people learning to defend against attacks that you have never seen anyone, anywhere attacked with ever (i.e. oi-tsuki).
> 
> Then the next day you go check out an MMA club, and you see people attacking with (and defending against) attacks which look exactly like the violence you see in or around pubs on a weekend.
> 
> Which of these arts will look more like real violence, and therefore seem to be the most likely for the person to take up?
> 
> The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian  violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.
> 
> TMA needs a make over, thre is plenty of information out their if you want to find it, there rally is no excuse in this day an age for any instructor to be sticking with oi-tsuki if they have the words self defence on their website.



'TMA' is a very broad description, it's far too generalised. With as many styles as there is, as many different instructors with extremely different experiences I don't think that it means anything saying that 'TMA' needs to change. 
As for walking into an MMA club and seeing the type of violence you see in pubs I'd be very surprised if you did. Violence isn't the point of MMA, winning fights is. Fighters and those training MMA drilling techniques, working on fitness and tactics. In fact if you go into an MMA club the week before a fight you will think they are all softies because they won't be doing very much. Remember too that all the techniques used in MMA come from TMA because that's what MMA is, the use of multiple techniques from martial arts. 
some martial arts clubs and instructors are pants, there's no doubt, all martial arts including MMA but you simply cannot generalise in the way you have.

As for oi-tsuki, I'd suggest you don't know how to use it, I've seen it used in MMA. Used properly, it's effective. What do you think it is?


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## Mephisto

K-man said:


> Well for me I have never heard any TMA guys bag MMA, or BJJ for that matter. I have heard many MMA or BJJ guys bagging TMAs. MMA has proven itself to be a popular sport, that's all. If I wanted to compete in the ring I would go and train BJJ to complement my other training and perhaps some MT. But, I have no intention of doing that and I have no problem with MMA being what it is. Why do MMA and BJJ guys always have to tell other people how good their style is? Don't know if it's anything to do with intellectual or more just insecurity.
> 
> I'm not threatened by anything I see in other MA training. I might recognise other forms of training to be more appropriate for competition but nothing more. We had a couple of young guys came sauntering in one night telling everyone that they were training _jujitsu, _by which they meant BJJ, and that they wanted to see what we were doing. I invited them onto the mat and asked them to do what ever took their fancy. Nothing they tried worked and they walked out rather sheepishly. Just because you train MMA or BJJ doesn't suddenly make you invincible.
> :asian:



Have you read this thread or any of the other threads here? The TMA crowd (of which I consider myself part of) are rather dismissive and u accepting of mma. I've been to tna schools and heard plenty of mma and style bashing. Haven't the opposite from friends that train mma or at the few schools I've been too. You seem rather dismissive yourself. Plenty of tma guys claim that they are one of the few that kniw how to apply their art to reality and train for real, might be true in some cases but not in all cases. Heck, some tma schools even advertise that they do mma to get more students. I think if you lol at it statistically an mma school will gave better conditioned athletes more equipped to handle a resisting opponent. There are crappy mma schools and good tma schools. But in general if a guy wants to learn how to fight an mma school is the way to go. If we're talking spiritual development it done higher non fighting related purpose sure maybe tma is better.

as for the BJJ guys that came to your school? Iove noticed guys that come and train and mention their previous training are often not very skilled. I've had a guy tell me he "knew aikido, judo, boxing" and maybe a few other arts, he was out if shape and moved clumsily and obviously wasn't skilled in any of the arts he claimed, and he's just one of many "experienced" martial artists I've met. What were the rules of the match you had with these Bjj guys? what specifically did you and they do? Are you willing to share any video of your training? Just asking I'm open to change my way of thinking with evidence and discussion, this post probably sounds way more accusatory and negative than I intend for it to be. I hear stuff like this discussion said all day by my tma friends, I don't argue with them many people think you're a jerk if you share a differing opinion so I keep it to myself. It's nice to be able to share my thoughts here .


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## Buka

The only problem with Martial Arts is it's made up of people. We all know what a crazy species we are. 

I can only speak for myself. I train with some Kenpo guys, I train with some Bjj guys, I train with some Mma guys, I train with some Uechi guys, I train with some boxers and a whole lot of our own guys, obviously. Not one of them, not a single fricken one ever talks bad about another art, style, or whatever you want to call it. Not ever. I don't think it's because they're great guys or anything, or that they don't know any other stylists. they just don't bother. The only time they have something to say is "Hey, show me how to do that." Back in the 70's there was a lot of Karate bashing, I just don't see it anymore. It would be like making fun of someone's car, or dog, there's no point or reason. The only bashing crap I ever hear is on the internet.

Couple other opinions I have. Kenpo ain't going anywhere. It'll be around a long time, long after we're all dead.
And I lived in Hawaii for ten years. Pineapple on pizza rocks - when you're in the mood for it.


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## Xue Sheng

Paul_D said:


> The problem comes not with TMA itself, but with the fact the TMA instructors have little or no understanding of the realities of civilian  violence, and so they carry on getting their students to attacks each other with unrealistic attacks from unrealistic distances, hence it looks unrealistic.



Obviously we have not trained with the same TMA teachers/people.


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## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The major difference between the TMA and MMA is in
> 
> - TMA, people try to map form into applications.
> - MMA, people try to map application back into drills.
> 
> In one thread discussion that people argue whether "foot sweep" exist in the WC system or not. That's the TMA way of thinking. Whatever that you do, you are not suppose to violate the principle of your style. A more open minded TMA guy will think that if "foot sweep" works, he would like to train it. If "foot sweep" is not in his forms, he may just add it into his form so the future generation won't have to go through this argument again.
> 
> The MMA guy will just put "foot sweep" into his toolbox. Since he doesn't have to be loyal to any particular style, all those discussion will never happen.
> 
> TMA such as the Kempo system still have the "style boundary". To me, that's the limitation.


I don't know much about mma, but I completely disagree with these statements about tma.


----------



## K-man

Mephisto said:


> Have you read this thread or any of the other threads here? The TMA crowd (of which I consider myself part of) are rather dismissive and u accepting of mma.



Yes I've read the posts in this thread, and in the six years I've been on this forum I've read quite a few posts in quite a few threads.   Perhaps you could give me an example of someone bagging MMA. There are people you will admit they don't enjoy watching MMA, of which I am one, but that is totally different to "rather dismissive" or unaccepting of MMA.



Mephisto said:


> I've been to tna schools and heard plenty of mma and style bashing. Haven't the opposite from friends that train mma or at the few schools I've been too. You seem rather dismissive yourself. Plenty of tma guys claim that they are one of the few that kniw how to apply their art to reality and train for real, might be true in some cases but not in all cases.


Mmm. We have obviously never trained in the same schools. In thirty years I don't think I have heard any derogatory comments of MMA. I have heard plenty of criticisms of other TMA styles and schools. As to me being dismissive? Perhaps you could post an example. I have fought with many MMA and BJJ guys on this forum over the years and in recent times rather passionately with *Hanzou*, but not to put their styles down. They were claiming that their training was superior to TMA training, and in some cases I would agree with them. I have seen plenty of less than average TMA training. But I will always claim that the training I provide is realistic and if in the unlikely event it is ever needed, it will see my guys get home safely.



Mephisto said:


> Heck, some tma schools even advertise that they do mma to get more students. I think if you lol at it statistically an mma school will gave better conditioned athletes more equipped to handle a resisting opponent. There are crappy mma schools and good tma schools. But in general if a guy wants to learn how to fight an mma school is the way to go. If we're talking spiritual development it done higher non fighting related purpose sure maybe tma is better.


Again, I have never seen a TMA school advertise MMA without providing MMA training. In fact here, that would constitute false advertising. But saying that, every commercial school that I know provides MMA training. Without it they wouldn't survive, unless they are teaching kids after school which is a different discussion. 

Now you have ventured an opinion with no way of backing it up with facts. It depends on what you are calling athletes for starters. I consider an athlete to be a person competing in a form of physical sport. I do not consider myself an athlete. 



> *Athlete*noun
> a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise.
> "he had the broad-shouldered build of a natural athlete"
> synonyms:    sportswoman, sportsman, sportsperson; More
> BRITISH
> a person who takes part in competitive track and field events (athletics).


If you are talking competition at a serious level then I would agree that those guys are going to be fitter than your average martial artists but that includes TKD, Karate, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling etc. It is not confined to MMA. And why would an MMA school be best to handle a resisting opponent? Are you saying that in competitions of the above listed martial sports the competitors are not resisting? Come on! If you are talking MMA competition, of course an MMA school will provide the best training for that competition. You don't need a high IQ to work that on out, but if you are a boxer and competing in Boxing then MMA would be mostly a waste of time. As to MMA the best for teaching you to fight ... garbage. You want to learn to fight, there are places that teach other systems, like Krav, that will do that quicker and probably more effectively than MMA.

As to spiritual development ... I wouldn't know. It's never been part of my training and that includes eight years of Aikido which is an internal style. 



Mephisto said:


> as for the BJJ guys that came to your school? Iove noticed guys that come and train and mention their previous training are often not very skilled. I've had a guy tell me he "knew aikido, judo, boxing" and maybe a few other arts, he was out if shape and moved clumsily and obviously wasn't skilled in any of the arts he claimed, and he's just one of many "experienced" martial artists I've met. What were the rules of the match you had with these Bjj guys? what specifically did you and they do? Are you willing to share any video of your training? Just asking I'm open to change my way of thinking with evidence and discussion, this post probably sounds way more accusatory and negative than I intend for it to be. I hear stuff like this discussion said all day by my tma friends, I don't argue with them many people think you're a jerk if you share a differing opinion so I keep it to myself. It's nice to be able to share my thoughts here .


The guys that came in were _big-noters_, not representative at all of BJJ. For all I know they may have had just one lesson, but they had trained '_Ju Jitsu'_. I just asked then to show me some locks, holds and takedowns of which they couldn't perform one. I didn't say it was a 'match'. I invited them in to show me what they could do. If they had been any good I would have invited them to stay and train. I'm happy to learn from anyone, particularly this skilled in BJJ because in that area my training is limited.

As to me training on video .. no, I don't have any to show you and I'm not interested in posting any. Anyone is welcome to visit if they are truly interested.

As to an example of our training, any video of Taira Bunkai on Youtube such as you will find here is a big part of my Goju training ...
Tairabunkai videos

This is an example of my Aikido training ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPei-spftzg

My Krav training ... just look up any Krav, but that's not really TMA in the normal sense.
:asian:


----------



## Flying Crane

Hand Sword said:


> My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.
> 
> Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.
> 
> So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.
> 
> Thoughts???



to get back to the original topic,  I'm an ex-Tracy method kenpo guy.  I trained  many years ago to shodan, got away from it while training other things, then came back to it with a different teacher, very high in the Tracy lineage, very good teacher and excellent martial artist.  I re-trained everything with him, again to Shodan and re-tested with him.

Ultimately I found that the method and the curriculum are very cumbersome.  For me, it simply is not a good match.  I cannot make use of the material, either as a training method or as real fighting techniques.  But that's me.  My teacher was excellent, he's been with the Tracys since the early 1960s, and he's very very good.  So I believe it comes down to the fact that not everything works as well for everyone, not everything is a good match for everyone, not every training approach or curriculum works equally well for everyone.  We all need to find a method that works well for us, that makes sense to us, that we can understand and use effectively.  That could be a TMA method or an MMA method or whatever.  Just because something works well for one person does not mean it will work equally well for another, so all this back-and-forth over what method works and what sucks and what is a waste of time, well it's just blowing hot air.  

And yes, there are a lot of people out there whose training is nonsense and fantasy, that's a given.  That doesn't mean the system or the method as a whole is junk.  It just means a lot of people don't know what they are doing, don't train effectively, even tho they strap on some high rank.  That's a problem with INDIVIDUALS, not a problem with an entire system.  I'm sure we can find plenty of examples from any style, who suck.  Just like we can find plenty of examples of any style who are quite good.  Nobody's got the monopoly on either.

From the discussions on the kenpo sections, I have the personal opinion that people in kenpo tend to over-intellectualize things.  They over-analyze and seem to be looking for the perfect mathematical equation to describe the perfect punch and the perfect response to an attack.  That turns me off.  I don't think its a good way to spend one's time and energies.  Not everyone is like that, of course, but I see it enough to recognize that it pops up regularly for some people.  

So for me, I have no interest in training any branch of kenpo (speaking of the Mitose-CHow-Parker derived kenpo lineages, I don't know much about other methods that use the term Kenpo to describe what they do).  I believe there is a tendency within kenpo to over-intellectualize things, but once again, that depends on the individuals.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> to get back to the original topic,  I'm an ex-Tracy method kenpo guy.  I trained  many years ago to shodan, got away from it while training other things, then came back to it with a different teacher, very high in the Tracy lineage, very good teacher and excellent martial artist.  I re-trained everything with him, again to Shodan and re-tested with him.
> 
> Ultimately I found that the method and the curriculum are very cumbersome.  For me, it simply is not a good match.  I cannot make use of the material, either as a training method or as real fighting techniques.  But that's me.  My teacher was excellent, he's been with the Tracys since the early 1960s, and he's very very good.  So I believe it comes down to the fact that not everything works as well for everyone, not everything is a good match for everyone, not every training approach or curriculum works equally well for everyone.  We all need to find a method that works well for us, that makes sense to us, that we can understand and use effectively.  That could be a TMA method or an MMA method or whatever.  Just because something works well for one person does not mean it will work equally well for another, so all this back-and-forth over what method works and what sucks and what is a waste of time, well it's just blowing hot air.
> 
> And yes, there are a lot of people out there whose training is nonsense and fantasy, that's a given.  That doesn't mean the system or the method as a whole is junk.  It just means a lot of people don't know what they are doing, don't train effectively, even tho they strap on some high rank.  That's a problem with INDIVIDUALS, not a problem with an entire system.  I'm sure we can find plenty of examples from any style, who suck.  Just like we can find plenty of examples of any style who are quite good.  Nobody's got the monopoly on either.
> 
> From the discussions on the kenpo sections, I have the personal opinion that people in kenpo tend to over-intellectualize things.  They over-analyze and seem to be looking for the perfect mathematical equation to describe the perfect punch and the perfect response to an attack.  That turns me off.  I don't think its a good way to spend one's time and energies.  Not everyone is like that, of course, but I see it enough to recognize that it pops up regularly for some people.
> 
> So for me, I have no interest in training any branch of kenpo (speaking of the Mitose-CHow-Parker derived kenpo lineages, I don't know much about other methods that use the term Kenpo to describe what they do).  I believe there is a tendency within kenpo to over-intellectualize things, but once again, that depends on the individuals.


Believe me when I tell you, I haven't over-intellectualized kenpo. I have a very simple understanding. Call me a rebel. LOL


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tames D said:


> I absolutely agree with this. The only thing worse than pineapple on pizza is the 10 year old TKD blackbelt.



So you're OK with 10 year old blackbelts from other arts, just not TKD? Can you explain why?


----------



## Mephisto

K-man said:


> Yes I've read the posts in this thread, and in the six years I've been on this forum I've read quite a few posts in quite a few threads.   Perhaps you could give me an example of someone bagging MMA. There are people you will admit they don't enjoy watching MMA, of which I am one, but that is totally different to "rather dismissive" or unaccepting of MMA.



Read the OP, it's pretty dismissive. I really don't care to take the time to dig further, i've dealt with your type before and taken the time to explain myself properly and it's like talking to a brick wall. If you can't find the dismissive attitude toward MMA that some people have than you really are blind. People don't give MMA it's credit just like people don't give TMA its credit. Both sides just need to agree that each has something to offer. I just think MMA is on the better path by encouraging physical conditioning and testing your ability against a resisting opponent. But MMA is certainly not everything. 

[/QUOTE] Mmm. We have obviously never trained in the same schools. In thirty years I don't think I have heard any derogatory comments of MMA. I have heard plenty of criticisms of other TMA styles and schools. As to me being dismissive? Perhaps you could post an example. I have fought with many MMA and BJJ guys on this forum over the years and in recent times rather passionately with *Hanzou*, but not to put their styles down. They were claiming that their training was superior to TMA training, and in some cases I would agree with them. I have seen plenty of less than average TMA training. But I will always claim that the training I provide is realistic and if in the unlikely event it is ever needed, it will see my guys get home safely.[/QUOTE]

Well good for you , you've never heard an unkind word about MMA. But the fact that you've heard plenty of TMA mudslinging is one in the same. Again, the fact that you object to my post is evidence of your anti MMA attitude. I don't really care to dig up any more BS than is contained in this thread. And again, your school doesn't speak for every TMA school out there. 

No one cares about your superb yet super secret training. Your whole post reeks of smugness, how can you deny that you've never heard anyone say an unkind word toward MMA training? I'm not gonna spoonfeed you everything, if you're part of the martial arts culture you've seen it. At best you are one person in an ocean of TMA that doesn't train realistically. Perhaps you are the exception. 

[/QUOTE] Again, I have never seen a TMA school advertise MMA without providing MMA training. In fact here, that would constitute false advertising. But saying that, every commercial school that I know provides MMA training. Without it they wouldn't survive, unless they are teaching kids after school which is a different discussion. [/QUOTE]

Not sure what your point is here, it should be no surprise that schools pad resumes and play to trends to get students.  It it's quite common now days that a school teaches one art and may or may not add parts of another and they advertise "MMA". Perhaps technically if you teach more than one art you can call what you do "MMA" but it's the same as old kung fu schools or TKD schools advertising "karate." It's a marketing ploy to get students. 

[/QUOTE] Now you have ventured an opinion with no way of backing it up with facts. It depends on what you are calling athletes for starters. I consider an athlete to be a person competing in a form of physical sport. I do not consider myself an athlete.  [/QUOTE]

That's fine as long as you don't have the illusion that you can defeat an MMA athlete with your brand of martial arts. 


[/QUOTE] If you are talking competition at a serious level then I would agree that those guys are going to be fitter than your average martial artists but that includes TKD, Karate, Judo, Boxing, Wrestling etc. It is not confined to MMA. And why would an MMA school be best to handle a resisting opponent? Are you saying that in competitions of the above listed martial sports the competitors are not resisting? Come on! If you are talking MMA competition, of course an MMA school will provide the best training for that competition. You don't need a high IQ to work that on out, but if you are a boxer and competing in Boxing then MMA would be mostly a waste of time. As to MMA the best for teaching you to fight ... garbage. You want to learn to fight, there are places that teach other systems, like Krav, that will do that quicker and probably more effectively than MMA.[/QUOTE]

MMA is best equipping its students for reality because they train striking and grappling. Any fighter that competes will have an advantage over jo-schmo that doesn't know how to apply his craft on a resisting oppnent. It's important to train all ranges, each of the arts you mentioned havea specialty and a purpose but I doubt any practitioner of any of these arts would enter an MMA  competition with is skills alone. The arts embrace each other and build on one another.

[/QUOTE] As to spiritual development ... I wouldn't know. It's never been part of my training and that includes eight years of Aikido which is an internal style. 


The guys that came in were _big-noters_, not representative at all of BJJ. For all I know they may have had just one lesson, but they had trained '_Ju Jitsu'_. I just asked then to show me some locks, holds and takedowns of which they couldn't perform one. I didn't say it was a 'match'. I invited them in to show me what they could do. If they had been any good I would have invited them to stay and train. I'm happy to learn from anyone, particularly this skilled in BJJ because in that area my training is limited.

As to me training on video .. no, I don't have any to show you and I'm not interested in posting any. Anyone is welcome to visit if they are truly interested.

As to an example of our training, any video of Taira Bunkai on Youtube such as you will find here is a big part of my Goju training ...
Tairabunkai videos

This is an example of my Aikido training ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPei-spftzg

My Krav training ... just look up any Krav, but that's not really TMA in the normal sense.
:asian:[/QUOTE]
Your videos are all demos, that's fine but they don't show any skill that applies to reality. I expect a sparring video to look gritty and show both participants getting hit, i'm realistic in my expectations. But if you're unwilling to show anything that's fine, you showed what you thought was a good example of your style and it was all demos, maybe you can clarify a video of actual skill and compare it to a demo. As for your BJJ challengers you just asked them to show a lock or technique and they couldn't show anything? Who was the uke? Could they strike you? Sounds rather inconclusive, if you think BJJ is so benign go to a BJJ school and ask them to demonstrate. i'm sure they'll have someone who can show you something.


----------



## K-man

Mephisto said:


> Read the OP, it's pretty dismissive.



Well here is the OP in full. 


Hand Sword said:


> My last post and reality that I've faced got me thinking about the possible decline of Kem/npo (which has been mentioned here on MT). Is it that this generation is too intellectual to appreciate and take part for time periods in the traditional arts? I include Kem/npo in the traditional arts, as it's been so long now that this generation doesn't see the difference anymore. Ours saw it as new and dynamic when the movies and culture hilighted the then traditional.
> 
> Maybe that's it? Maybe each generation is influenced by the newer trends which helps shape it? This one is less physically social, and way more digitally social. They live for instant gratification and have been "raised" that way. Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing.
> 
> So, is this group too intellectual for the traditional arts? Do they see Kem/npo as unrealistic and B.S. because of it's presentation? Can the art be changed to fit the needs of this group or is it doomed and relegated to the fringe and family fun time? Can they, as they get older change over, looking for more substance. Look at the movement today over Bunkai and the noteriety gained.
> 
> Thoughts???


Not one word being dismissive of MMA. Certainly it describes today's generation of martial artists in simplistic terms but I would suggest it is no way dismissive of MMA.




Mephisto said:


> I really don't care to take the time to dig further, i've dealt with your type before and taken the time to explain myself properly and it's like talking to a brick wall. If you can't find the dismissive attitude toward MMA that some people have than you really are blind. People don't give MMA it's credit just like people don't give TMA its credit. Both sides just need to agree that each has something to offer. I just think MMA is on the better path by encouraging physical conditioning and testing your ability against a resisting opponent. But MMA is certainly not everything.



I don't know where these comments came from but you are certainly being offensive. Just what is "your type"? I like to think I see both sides of a discussion and I repeat my challenge to you. Find me posts of people having a dismissive attitude towards MMA. You made the claim with no evidence. For what it's worth I think most people recognise MMA as a solid combination of other martial arts which most times include a TMA. I agree that both sides should recognise the benefits of each but I'm not sure what posts you have seen of Traditional Martial Artists having a go at MMA. Now you like MMA for any number of reasons and I doubt anyone would speak against that. As to you next point that it's a better path, then that is your opinion. Many here would have a different position and of course that depends on the viewpoint. For example, would you really claim that MMA would be the martial art of choice for a 60 year old without MA experience?




Mephisto said:


> Well good for you , you've never heard an unkind word about MMA. But the fact that you've heard plenty of TMA mudslinging is one in the same. Again, the fact that you object to my post is evidence of your anti MMA attitude. I don't really care to dig up any more BS than is contained in this thread. And again, your school doesn't speak for every TMA school out there.


Ouch! Well good for you too.  You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder. How do you figure that MMA or BJJ guys taking a shot at TMAs is the same as mudslinging at MMA? As to my anti MMA attitude ... well, your grasp of the language is tenuous to say the least. I support MMA 100%. In terms of honest competition it is as good as it gets. How you could have the impression that I am anti MMA is beyond my ken. And what that has to do with my school ... I never claimed it was better or otherwise. All I did was state that we train to give our students the skills to defend themselves.



Mephisto said:


> No one cares about your superb yet super secret training. Your whole post reeks of smugness, how can you deny that you've never heard anyone say an unkind word toward MMA training? I'm not gonna spoonfeed you everything, if you're part of the martial arts culture you've seen it. At best you are one person in an ocean of TMA that doesn't train realistically. Perhaps you are the exception.


Again you are being offensive. My training is as good as I can provide, which I assume is the same as every other instructor on this forum. There is nothing secret about my training and I have never claimed it to be better that others out there providing similar training. If you think I am smug, that is your problem. I really don't care what you think but I do object strongly to your attitude. As to your slight here on TMA not training realistically, I would suggest you read the rules on putting down other styles.



Mephisto said:


> Not sure what your point is here, it should be no surprise that schools pad resumes and play to trends to get students.  It it's quite common now days that a school teaches one art and may or may not add parts of another and they advertise "MMA". Perhaps technically if you teach more than one art you can call what you do "MMA" but it's the same as old kung fu schools or TKD schools advertising "karate." It's a marketing ploy to get students.


It would be interesting to hear from others on this claim. I have never seen one here that advertises MMA without providing genuine MMA training. Once you put up the shingle 'MMA' you attract students who want to compete in MMA. How do you think those guys would go if their training isn't providing them with the tools of the trade? 



Mephisto said:


> That's fine as long as you don't have the illusion that you can defeat an MMA athlete with your brand of martial arts.


I am under no illusions. I don't train fighters to compete. If someone wants to do that I will refer them to a number of my friends that train and promote MMA. However, if you would like to transfer your claim to the street environment, I would suggest my guys would do at least as well against a street thug as your MMA athlete. 



Mephisto said:


> MMA is best equipping its students for reality because they train striking and grappling. Any fighter that competes will have an advantage over jo-schmo that doesn't know how to apply his craft on a resisting oppnent. It's important to train all ranges, each of the arts you mentioned havea specialty and a purpose but I doubt any practitioner of any of these arts would enter an MMA  competition with is skills alone. The arts embrace each other and build on one another.


No! MMA is best for equipping its students to compete in the ring. Nothing in the training I provide or I train is for an MMA competition. As to anyone competing in am MMA competition with just one skill set, what is the relevance to my post or the OP. For what it's worth, I doubt anyone with just one skill set could compete in MMA these days, but that is why they call it Mixed Martial Art. Isn't that a coincidence? 



Mephisto said:


> Your videos are all demos, that's fine but they don't show any skill that applies to reality. I expect a sparring video to look gritty and show both participants getting hit, i'm realistic in my expectations. But if you're unwilling to show anything that's fine, you showed what you thought was a good example of your style and it was all demos, maybe you can clarify a video of actual skill and compare it to a demo. As for your BJJ challengers you just asked them to show a lock or technique and they couldn't show anything? Who was the uke? Could they strike you? Sounds rather inconclusive, if you think BJJ is so benign go to a BJJ school and ask them to demonstrate. i'm sure they'll have someone who can show you something.


Good grief! You asked for an example of my training. We don't spar in the same way that you spar in MMA. It's not that I am unwilling to share. I haven't got any video of the type you want. We don't video our training.

As to the BJJ. You make it sound as if I haven't trained with BJJ guys. Believe me I have. Every time someone here comes up with what I consider a good technique that I could use I take it to them. 

Why would I think BJJ benign? Read any of my posts, I have said many times if I was younger I probably would have trained it myself. I have said in many posts that if I was going to compete in MMA, BJJ would be my choice for the ground component of my training.


----------



## Tames D

Dirty Dog said:


> So you're OK with 10 year old blackbelts from other arts, just not TKD? Can you explain why?


I'd love to answer your question, but I've learned recently that we're just not entitled to an explanation on this board.


----------



## Steve

K-man said:


> Well here is the OP in full.
> 
> Not one word being dismissive of MMA. Certainly it describes today's generation of martial artists in simplistic terms but I would suggest it is no way dismissive of MMA.


I think it really depends on which side of the issue you perceive yourself.  From where I sit, the OP generalizes about MMA and also "this generation" negatively.  This entire thread is founded on an unflattering generalization of "this generation" and suggests that this is why MMA is popular and Kenpo is on the decline.   I want to be clear that I don't think the questions are unreasonable as a prompt for discussion.  What I am suggesting is that there is certainly some bagging on MMA, which you don't see.


----------



## K-man

Well, I think you are being overly sensitive. 

_"Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing."_

All that is given here is a possible reason for the possible decline in popularity of MAs that take longer to learn. What part of the above do you disagree with?


----------



## Steve

K-man said:


> Well, I think you are being overly sensitive.
> 
> _"Maybe, the UFC, MMA craze which has grown over the years gives that shock reality thirsted (conditioned) for. It's straight forward, bang, bang, bang, and choke that cat out- asleep! Knockouts and banging have always been appealing."_
> 
> All that is given here is a possible reason for the possible decline in popularity of MAs that take longer to learn. What part of the above do you disagree with?


Are you responding to me?  If so, in what way am I being sensitive at all, much less overly sensitive?  

When you say, "Not one word being dismissive of MMA," there is room to disagree based upon which side of the issue you land.  You made an absolute statement based upon a subjective judgement.  That you zeroed right in on a statement from the OP to defend suggests to me that you know you're reaching a little.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

To intellectual????  Or the fad of the moment????

One thing I know about the martial arts world is that things come in waves.  Meaning that one moment a system is all the rage and the next maybe not so much.  We have had the Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ and now MMA all featured prominently at one time and all had their booms.  You even had some mini boom times in their as well for Reality Based Training and Krav Maga, currently Muay Thai, etc.  Bottom line some times your art will be featured out front and other times not so much.  MMA is here to stay because of the UFC and other MMA organizations. (there is big money for good and bad)  That is not going anywhere and will dominate the martial landscape for a long time.  However, other systems will boom and believe it or not they too will suffer the issues that some systems have already gone through.  For instance when I was training in BJJ every day there were no kid's classes at all.  Now, you will be hard pressed to find many Brazilian Jiujitsu schools without an advanced kid's program.  Karate or Tae Kwon Do way back in the day did not have kid's either.  However, over time a successful business model came into play and that same model continues to this day coopted by other systems.  I'm seeing MMA kid's programs all over the place now in Vegas.  Ten years ago you would not find them!

Someone once said to me that MMA will be TMA before you know it and you know what?  He is right!!!


----------



## Steve

Those kids are awesome and fun to watch.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

kid's are a blast to watch practice in any martial system!


----------



## Paul_D

Tez3 said:


> As for oi-tsuki, I'd suggest you don't know how to use it, I've seen it used in MMA. Used properly, it's effective. What do you think it is?


If you have hit someone, or applied a lock, and they have ended up too far away to use gyaku tsuki as a follow up, then you use oi-tsuki.


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## Hanzou

Well, this is a fun little thread.....

I would imagine that Kempo/Kenpo is waning because most people, even within the MA community have no idea what it is exactly. My only real knowledge of Kempo came from Jeff Speakman movies I saw when I was younger. 

As for Bjj and MMA, their growth is largely the result of 3 major factors:

1. The internet. Bjj and MMA exponents put their stuff online and it looks awesome and applicable. No fat guys prancing around imitating animals. You got good looking men and women (or scary looking guys like Kurt Osiander, or scantily clad bimbos on MMA candy) giving you easy to follow grappling or striking tips, and it looks great. You can also watch Bjj and MMA matches online. 

I don't know why, but TMAs just don't look as good online.

2. The culture. Bjj comes from Brazil, not Asia, so the culture in many Bjj schools are totally different than the culture you'll find in traditional Asian martial arts. I was absolutely amazed at how laid back my Bjj class was. You come late? No problem. Sometimes the instructor was late, and we ended training way past closing time. We called the instructor by their first name. No bowing to anyone. We joked around with each other. We laughed while training. It was complete culture shock, but I absolutely loved it.

But beyond that, there's also the merchandise. There's all kinds of t-shirts, active gear, pants, hats, bags, and other assorted apparel associated with Bjj and MMA that just gives it a coolness factor that the TMAs don't have, and again its very attractive to a younger generation.

There's simply nothing like that for traditional martial artists.

3. The reality factor. Hoshin and Mephisto covered this very well. The UFC really changed everything 20 years ago. In my teen years, I remember when I told my friends that I did Karate. They would laugh at me and tell me that stuff didn't work. No one says that about Bjj or MMA these days. I tutor high school kids sometimes, and one of my students practices MMA. He mentioned it to his classmates and no one said anything negative about it. They thought he was some kind of superman. In another situation, I have a co-worker who was a wrestler in high school, and he's constantly looking for guys with grappling experience to train with. All except me of course, because he says that Bjj is "too brutal" because of its chokes, and arm/leg locks.

Whether valid or not, people believe that if you can fight in a ring you can fight anywhere. Its why you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that boxers aren't great fighters. They are, and people feel the same way about MMA fighters.


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## EddieCyrax

Hanzou said:


> I would imagine that Kempo/Kenpo is waning because most people, even within the MA community have no idea what it is exactly. My only real knowledge of Kempo came from Jeff Speakman movies I saw when I was younger.



Really?!?  You do realize that Chuck Lidell is a Kenpo guy.....so outdated.....ok.....


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## Hanzou

EddieCyrax said:


> Really?!?  You do realize that Chuck Lidell is a Kenpo guy.....so outdated.....ok.....



I realize that Liddell studied Kenpo at some point, but that's only because I read his bio. His skills in boxing and wrestling are far more advertised. If someone showed me a Chuck Liddell fight, I wouldn't associate what he does with Kenpo, I would associate it with MMA.

It also doesn't help that he's retired and in his mid 40s.


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## Steve

Hanzou makes some good points.  Effective use of social media and marketing strategies is a part of growing any business.  MMA guys and BJJ guys have done this very well.  I think the entire ShoYoRoll marketing strategy is both brilliant and ridiculous.  But, they are making money hand over fist doing it. 

The Brazilian culture is also appealing, although I'd say that it's become well tempered here in the USA over the decades.  In the USA, we tend to appreciate timeliness, and if you want to grow your business here you have to be on time.  Not everyone is enamored with bowing and the Samurai culture, and you're absolutely right that the relaxed atmosphere of a typical BJJ school is in stark contrast to the overt formality of a Japanese dojo.

I'd add to the above that the culture is, at least for a little while longer, a little more... authentic.  You go into a BJJ dojo, and even if the owner is American, there are very close ties to Brazil.  I'd expect that many TMA schools continue to have close affiliations with Asia, but as time goes on and the lineages pile on, those ties naturally fade. 

I think, true or not, this lack of stuffiness in the gym leads to a perception of practicality.  Current market mentality in many things is to pare it back to the essentials and get grungy.  People aren't just jogging 5ks anymore; they're running Tough Mudders or other, similar obstacle course events.  People aren't just going to the gym anymore; they want crossfit or boot camp, where they can flip tires and climb ropes and be cavemen (and cavewomen). 

Will it last?  Probably not.  But this is where we're at.  Marketing and public perception.  But, it's been almost 15 years since the UFC really catapulted MMA into the public consciousness, and it's lasted pretty well so far.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Without some actual statistics on the numbers of students training various arts, I hesitate to make too many assumptions about which arts are growing or receding. BJJ and MMA are currently growing because they are new and in vogue and we are starting to develop enough qualified instructors to meet demand. I'm sure that growth will level off at some point.

As far as gym culture goes, that's largely a matter of personal taste. Some folks like a casual environment, some people like more ritual and formality.

I've seen plenty of good looking video online from almost every martial art. (Opinions on what looks impressive in a video also vary considerably.)

The whole merchandising thing is actually a turnoff for me. I train martial arts, but I'm not going to wear a hat/t-shirt/backpack/whatever to advertise that fact as I walk down the street.

I'm just happy that there are martial arts out there to satisfy a variety of tastes and interests.


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Whether valid or not, people believe that if you can fight in a ring you can fight anywhere. Its why you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that boxers aren't great fighters. They are, and people feel the same way about MMA fighters.



Don't agree with that you assert there. Boxers are completely different from MMA obviously. So from point of view, MMA guys and girls are technicians rather than traditional fighters. Boxers have one aim, punch the other boxers face through the back of his head. There is no strategy, just one aim. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Transk53 said:


> Don't agree with that you assert there. Boxers are completely different from MMA obviously. So from point of view, MMA guys and girls are technicians rather than traditional fighters. Boxers have one aim, punch the other boxers face through the back of his head. There is no strategy, just one aim. Just my 2 cents.



I don't know about that. There's plenty of strategy at work in high-level professional boxing. (Plenty of top-notch technicians as well.)


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## Transk53

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know about that. There's plenty of strategy at work in high-level professional boxing. (Plenty of top-notch technicians as well.)



I was just trying for definition between the two. I don't count MMA as traditional fighting, and not dissing it at all, and MMA as strategic fighting at a core level if you will.


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## Tony Dismukes

Transk53 said:


> I was just trying for definition between the two. I don't count MMA as traditional fighting, and not dissing it at all, and MMA as strategic fighting at a core level if you will.



 I don't think I've got a handle on the terms you're using. Could you explain what you mean by traditional fighting and strategic fighting and how MMA and boxing fit into one category or the other?


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## Transk53

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't think I've got a handle on the terms you're using. Could you explain what you mean by traditional fighting and strategic fighting and how MMA and boxing fit into one category or the other?



Technically from you're point of view, there would be no difference and probably seems a little silly to you. The way I see it is that pugilism has been around for eon's. MMA is new in that sense and combines different fighting methods and skills. You have do many different ways of taking an opponent out. Boxing had one way. To me personally I term that traditional and strategic fighting. Not about category or anything, just on a style basis if you will. I hope that is understandable, difficult for to convey on a forum.


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## EddieCyrax

Hanzou said:


> I realize that Liddell studied Kenpo at some point, but that's only because I read his bio. His skills in boxing and wrestling are far more advertised. If someone showed me a Chuck Liddell fight, I wouldn't associate what he does with Kenpo, I would associate it with MMA.
> 
> It also doesn't help that he's retired and in his mid 40s.



M.M.A. = Mixed Martial Arts......Kenpo, boxing, wrestling, etc.....All these influenced Liddell......I have actually listened to many of his interview, and he speaks to this kenpo influence on many occasions.....There is a wonderful youtube clip of Liddell at a seminar discussing his spinning back kick, the mechanics, and strategy for set up/execution.....

I do not see where his retirement from MMA has any relevance on his training or the styles he pursued.....perhaps he got tired of getting punched in the face.....

What is your basis for your statement.  Yes, Kenpo/Kempo numbers have declined, but I would not characterize this as an extinct art.  There are still plenty of practitioners/schools that teach Parker/Tracy/Villari.   

Just looking to get more people to follow your trolling here.....I am sorry I fell into your Troll Bait....


----------



## Steve

I think we all need to agree that MMA is a term that refers to a sport which has been codified under a unified ruleset since about 2001.  Prior to this, there wasn't "MMA" per se, but rather were different fighting traditions that all functionally rolled into MMA: pancrase, vale tudo, shooto, etc.

At one time, these were all distinct... now they're just different flavors of MMA. 

MMA is no more a hodge podge of mixed up styles than hapkido is, anymore.  In my opinion.


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## EddieCyrax

Steve said:


> I think we all need to agree that MMA is a term that refers to a sport which has been codified under a unified ruleset since about 2001.  Prior to this, there wasn't "MMA" per se, but rather were different fighting traditions that all functionally rolled into MMA: pancrase, vale tudo, shooto, etc.
> 
> At one time, these were all distinct... now they're just different flavors of MMA.
> 
> MMA is no more a hodge podge of mixed up styles than hapkido is, anymore.  In my opinion.



Agree to a point....there are still many MMA fighters that have mixed backgrounds.  Granted they have modified their training to be successful in the cage, but you can see their influences when they fight....ie...Lyoto Machida.

Just saying


----------



## Hanzou

EddieCyrax said:


> M.M.A. = Mixed Martial Arts......Kenpo, boxing, wrestling, etc.....All these influenced Liddell......I have actually listened to many of his interview, and he speaks to this kenpo influence on many occasions.....There is a wonderful youtube clip of Liddell at a seminar discussing his spinning back kick, the mechanics, and strategy for set up/execution.....
> 
> I do not see where his retirement from MMA has any relevance on his training or the styles he pursued.....perhaps he got tired of getting punched in the face.....
> 
> What is your basis for your statement.  Yes, Kenpo/Kempo numbers have declined, but I would not characterize this as an extinct art.  There are still plenty of practitioners/schools that teach Parker/Tracy/Villari.



Please note, I'm not saying that Liddell has ever denied his Kenpo roots, or that you can't figure that Liddell has a Kenpo background if you do a bit a digging.

I'm saying that if you just watch Liddell fight, there's nothing that really separates him from a standard MMA fighter outside of his preference for power punching. People aren't going to associate that distinction with Kenpo, they're going to associate it with Boxing/Kickboxing. His retirement was brought up because he's not fighting anymore, so newer MMA fans aren't seeing him fight at all. The new hotness in MMA is Ronda Rousey, Chris Weidman, Jon Jones, and others. Chuck Liddell and the old guard from the late 90's/00's are considered old news.

Bjj benefits from MMA because the Guard is a distinctly Bjj move. Bjj was also the primary MMA art when it burst onto the scene, so everyone associates ground grappling with Bjj. It also helps that no MMA fighter would be caught dead without at least a working knowledge of Bjj tactics. Muay Thai benefits from MMA in a similar fashion with its standing clinches and knee and elbow strikes.

Kenpo doesn't benefit from that type of distinction. There is no move that only Kenpo does, most people don't even know what Kenpo is. Hell, I've been in martial arts for most of my life, and if someone asked me what Kenpo/Kempo was, I really wouldn't be able to give them a good answer because there's so many different types of it. 

I never said that Kenpo was an extinct art. I said that the general population, and even members of the MA community don't know what it is exactly. That's a problem that Kenpo proponents need to solve.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Please note, I'm not saying that Liddell has ever denied his Kenpo roots, or that you can't figure that Liddell has a Kenpo background if you do a bit a digging.


Bit of digging??  How about look at his arm its tattooed on him


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Bit of digging??  How about look at his arm its tattooed on him



In all my years watching Liddell, I never noticed it. :shrug:


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## EddieCyrax

Hanzou said:


> I said that the general population, and even members of the MA community don't know what it is exactly. That's a problem that Kenpo proponents need to solve.



Just because you cant explain it does not mean their is a problem for others to solve......Egotistical Much?!?

Don't all arts punch/kick/grapple/lock/throw ?????  Yet somehow we can distinguish the characteristics of each art....

I do not follow your logic path.....


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## Steve

EddieCyrax said:


> Agree to a point....there are still many MMA fighters that have mixed backgrounds.  Granted they have modified their training to be successful in the cage, but you can see their influences when they fight....ie...Lyoto Machida.
> 
> Just saying


 I see your point and agree with you.  What I'm suggesting is that, even guys like Lyoto Machida train MMA in order to synthesize all of their skills specific to the sport in which they intend to participate.  Lyoto Machida came into MMA with a background in BJJ (black belt) and Karate (Shotokan or something).  He's also well versed in Sumo, IIRC.  Anyway, the point is, he synthesizes all of these skills by training with Anderson Silva, Big Nog, and other MMAists.  The skills translate to MMA, just as MMA skills translate to "the street" but in order to compete in MMA he is training MMA... AND that other stuff.


----------



## Hanzou

EddieCyrax said:


> Just because you cant explain it does not mean their is a problem for others to solve......Egotistical Much?!?



Its not about being egotistical, its about the fact that experienced martial artists should know what Kenpo is, but don't because its such an ambiguous and broad term. Heck, I know what some pretty obscure Chinese and Japanese MA are, but Kenpo is an entirely different matter. I'm guessing that I'm not alone in that regard.



> Don't all arts punch/kick/grapple/lock/throw ?????  Yet somehow we can distinguish the characteristics of each art....



TKD is known for its spectacular kicking. Aikido is known for its fluid wrist locks and spectacular breakfalls. Judo is distinguished by its jacket based throws. Bjj is known for its ground fighting and numerous submissions. Muay Thai is known for its brutal kicks, clinches, and knees and elbows.

Kenpo is known for what exactly?



> I do not follow your logic path.....



That's unfortunate. The logic path I'm using is pretty simple to follow.


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## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> Bit of digging??  How about look at his arm its tattooed on him




I thought everyone knew about his tattoos!  If you look at Wikipedia ( the first 'go to' for many) it's on the first line that he studied karate and Kenpo! He's also mentioned it in several interviews that I've read and listened to.


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## EddieCyrax

Hanzou said:


> Its not about being egotistical, its about the fact that experienced martial artists should know what Kenpo is, but don't because its such an ambiguous and broad term. Heck, I know what some pretty obscure Chinese and Japanese MA are, but Kenpo is an entirely different matter. I'm guessing that I'm not alone in that regard.
> 
> 
> 
> TKD is known for its spectacular kicking. Aikido is known for its fluid wrist locks and spectacular breakfalls. Judo is distinguished by its jacket based throws. Bjj is known for its ground fighting and numerous submissions. Muay Thai is known for its brutal kicks, clinches, and knees and elbows.
> 
> Kenpo is known for what exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> That's unfortunate. The logic path I'm using is pretty simple to follow.




Wiki it if your interested......Im out.....Happy holidays


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## EddieCyrax

Steve said:


> I see your point and agree with you.  What I'm suggesting is that, even guys like Lyoto Machida train MMA in order to synthesize all of their skills specific to the sport in which they intend to participate.  Lyoto Machida came into MMA with a background in BJJ (black belt) and Karate (Shotokan or something).  He's also well versed in Sumo, IIRC.  Anyway, the point is, he synthesizes all of these skills by training with Anderson Silva, Big Nog, and other MMAists.  The skills translate to MMA, just as MMA skills translate to "the street" but in order to compete in MMA he is training MMA... AND that other stuff.



Agree......I would still argue the individual styles still can be partially seen through the synthesize.

If you cage fight, you need to train to be successful in that environment......


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## EddieCyrax

Lastly,   Isnt this the Kenpo/Kempo board?

I am sure no one on this forum understands what Kempo is........"rolls eyes"


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Its not about being egotistical, its about the fact that experienced martial artists should know what Kenpo is, but don't.


Just because you dont does not mean others dont.


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Just because you dont does not mean others dont.



Isn't this topic about Kenpo/Kempo losing out popularity wise to MMA/Bjj?

So clearly I'm not the only one who has very little info about Kenpo.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Isn't this topic about Kenpo/Kempo losing out popularity wise to MMA/Bjj?
> 
> So clearly I'm not the only one who has very little info about Kenpo.


And clearly your not an "experienced Martial Artist"  Nor are BJJ UFC tapout fanboys


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## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> I thought everyone knew about his tattoos!  If you look at Wikipedia ( the first 'go to' for many) it's on the first line that he studied karate and Kenpo! He's also mentioned it in several interviews that I've read and listened to.



Even if that's the case, he's been retired for over 4 years, and even before that his popularity in MMA was declining. Its all about Rousey, Weidman, Jones, Hendricks, Faber, etc. these days.


----------



## Mephisto

I'll agree with Hanzou, I'm not really sure what is characteristic of kenpo. In know the spelling ranges from kenpo, kenpo, ke?po. The few things I've seen are seemingly long sequences of moves done with a compliant partner and a bit of a jack of all trades approach ranging from a multitude of unorthodox strikes to some standing locks and throws, with an emphasis on "the deadly" techniques. I've head that they used to train and spar hard back in the day but don't now. 

Rather than point out that just because HAnzou doesn't know what defines kenpo doesn't mean that no one else does, why don't you just help him out and tell him? I'm curious. 

I don't train kenpo, never have. But if I were to guess why it's less popular I'd wager that there seems to be a lack of alive training in my limited exposure. I think a lot of martial arts take the long route when it comes to developing fighting ability, that's not necessarily a bad thing if you're just looking for a physical outlet, like some do with tennis. Back in the day guys may have trained many hours a day, forms and compliant drills may have been a more worthy endeavor, now a lot of people are lucky to train three days a week. You have to optimize your training time , skills that aren't absolutely necessary to fight are a waste of time for many people. It seems the martial sports do just that, they practice things that directly relate to success in a fight. I'm speaking in general terms here not specifically about kenpo but perhaps some arts need to evolve with the times to fit modern needs.


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> And clearly your not an "experienced Martial Artist"  Nor are BJJ UFC tapout fanboys



Well since I'm wrong about everything, and ignorant of martial arts, perhaps *you* could explain the declining popularity of Kempo described in the OP.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Well since I'm wrong about everything, perhaps you could explain the declining popularity of Kempo described in the OP.


got any proof it actually is or is it a lack of youtube clips that makes you believe this?


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> got any proof it actually is or is it a lack of youtube clips that makes you believe this?



Did you read the OP?

Another thread from this forum about a possible decline;

Is Kenpo in a decline MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


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## ballen0351

Decline in people doing it has little bearing on people knowing what it is.  Your claim was "members of the MA community dont even know what it is"  then you said "its about the FACT that experienced martial artist should know what Kenpo is but dont."

I dont know if there is or is not a decline.  I dont really care there is only one guy in this forum that spends all his effort telling everyone how their art is loosing popularity to BJJ/MMA


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> I dont know if there is or is not a decline.  I dont really care there is only one guy in this forum that spends all his effort telling everyone how their art is loosing popularity to BJJ/MMA



You do understand that this thread is about Kenpo declining and losing popularity to Bjj/MMA right?


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> You do understand that this thread is about Kenpo declining and losing popularity to Bjj/MMA right?


Do You  I quoted YOUR posts


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Do You  I quoted YOUR posts



Of course, which is why I wrote post #53.

Why are you in this thread if you don't care about the topic of discussion?


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Of course, which is why I wrote post #53.
> 
> Why are you in this thread if you don't care about the topic of discussion?


Why are you claiming its a FACT experienced martial artists dont know what Kenpo is?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Wouldn't it be easier and more conducive to discussion to answer the questions, rather than bait each other?


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## ballen0351

I did where is the proof its in the decline?  Someones opinion and lack of youtube clips or an abundance of "good looking" people doing BJJ is silly.  Are there actual numbers out there?


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> I did where is the proof its in the decline?  Someones opinion and lack of youtube clips or an abundance of "good looking" people doing BJJ is silly.  Are there actual numbers out there?



You have Kenpo artists on here making threads and posting that there is. I would ask them that question.


----------



## EddieCyrax

Mephisto said:


> I'll agree with Hanzou, I'm not really sure what is characteristic of kenpo. In know the spelling ranges from kenpo, kenpo, ke?po. The few things I've seen are seemingly long sequences of moves done with a compliant partner and a bit of a jack of all trades approach ranging from a multitude of unorthodox strikes to some standing locks and throws, with an emphasis on "the deadly" techniques. I've head that they used to train and spar hard back in the day but don't now.
> 
> Rather than point out that just because HAnzou doesn't know what defines kenpo doesn't mean that no one else does, why don't you just help him out and tell him? I'm curious.
> 
> I don't train kenpo, never have. But if I were to guess why it's less popular I'd wager that there seems to be a lack of alive training in my limited exposure. I think a lot of martial arts take the long route when it comes to developing fighting ability, that's not necessarily a bad thing if you're just looking for a physical outlet, like some do with tennis. Back in the day guys may have trained many hours a day, forms and compliant drills may have been a more worthy endeavor, now a lot of people are lucky to train three days a week. You have to optimize your training time , skills that aren't absolutely necessary to fight are a waste of time for many people. It seems the martial sports do just that, they practice things that directly relate to success in a fight. I'm speaking in general terms here not specifically about kenpo but perhaps some arts need to evolve with the times to fit modern needs.



I do not have the desire to educate Hanzou as he has proven on many threads not to be a willing student.  He has already made his mind up about how the entire world works.

Mephisto, Legitimate question:  What experience with Kempo/Kenpo have you used to form your opinion?  Many things you see on youtube are what I would describe as demonstrations.( I have my own opinions about these, but that is for a different time with fellow kempoists)  There are also many McDojos, but that is with all TMAs.  My school contains scenario pressure drills, lively sparring (not point), kata, pressured self defense, wrist/arm/leg locks, take downs, throws, etc  all on non-compliant partners. Strong emphasis on structure, frame, body mechanics, power delivery,

Do we train for the cage? No.   

From my experience Kempo and BJJ compliment each other very nicely. (ie Chuck Lidell - just switch BJJ for wrestling)

 I do not agree that Kempo is irrelevant.


----------



## Mephisto

Thanks for the reply Eddie. I train in FMA, a lot of what you see of FMA online is compliant demos but there's more to it than that. Like what you've said about kenpo there's striking, throws, and locks in addition to the attention given to weapons. Most FMA tends to have an approach that falls in line with the RBSD crowd and sounds like what you mention about kenpo. 

I like the realistic approach of these arts, they certainly do not train for the ring or any sport. That being said, mma and sports training offers a solid base to build upon where a high level of proficiency can be reached in the basic technique areas ( grappling, striking). Adding the street focus of the other mentioned arts to a sport makes for a strong fighter. Perhaps the best answer to the street vs sport debate is to do both. But if I were pushed to choose one I'd put my bet on the sports fighter in most cases. Full disclosure I also train boxing and did a stent in bjj. I think that the guys I met in BJJ and train with in boxing are generally better equipped for a fight than the FMA crowd, of course this isn't always the case.


----------



## Hanzou

No one is saying that Kenpo is irrelevant. The question of this thread was why Kenpo is supposedly losing ground to MMA/Bjj. We're simply providing some possible reasons why.

Also, there is Bjj/MMA out there that trains for self defense outside the cage/ring. My Bjj school for example trains for both self defense and sport. If Kenpo isn't offering a sport option, that could also be another reason people are choosing Bjj/MMA over it.


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## Mephisto

I thought about mentioning the self defense component of BJJ in my last post. A lot of people unfamiliar with BJJ may not be aware of this. The advantage of a system that offers a competitive component is the experienced gained through regular training with resistant partners. You can look up BJJ for example and find hundreds of videos of people training with resistant partners and see similiar experience levels and practitioners that can reliably demonstrate the techniques they train in real time. The competitive aspect provides a means of quality control.

I've also trained at gyms in styles like hapkido and Japanese jujutsu that also sparred. The difference was the sparring instruction was minimal and most of the techniques trained were not applied while sparring. I've heard the same thing from friends and other practitioners regarding other TMA as well. While its good that these styles spar the instructors did not seem to know or tech how to time or move with an opponent who resists. The hapkido instructor I trained under was former special forces near a large military base. I have no doubt he was a badass but he was limited by the confines of his brand of hapkido. Coincidently he started training with a BJJ purple belt that was also teaching out of his school. I think a base in BJJ combined with his hapkido was a great combination.  Not sure if he ever brought his grappling training into the hapkido dojang. 

So back to the OP kenpo may or may not be declining in popularity but popularity in other TMA may be falling. One way for a system to prove its relevance to modern arts is to emphasize the basic techniques in a competitive format. Develope a format for resistant training that favors your style. The Gracie's did this with BJJ, they removed time limits and other penalties that were common in other grappling arts. Boxing only allows punches. The result is a high level of proficiency of basic techniques. You can still train the more lethal and combative stuff right along with the sport.


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## jks9199

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator


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## Tony Dismukes

For the record, I have no idea if the popularity of Kenpo is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same. The original poster doesn't cite any sources for data on this theoretical decline, so I don't know if it's real or just something he's seeing in his own particular circle.

I don't know that the nature of Kenpo is any more obscure than any other moderately popular art. I probably have as much general knowledge about Kenpo as I do for most other arts that I don't personally practice. It doesn't have a specialized focus that you can boil down to a catch phrase like TKD ("high kicks") or judo ("big throws"), but those catch phrases are oversimplified anyway..


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> TKD is known for its spectacular kicking. Aikido is known for its fluid wrist locks and spectacular breakfalls. Judo is distinguished by its jacket based throws. Bjj is known for its ground fighting and numerous submissions. Muay Thai is known for its brutal kicks, clinches, and knees and elbows.


I agree with what you have said. MMA is all about "integration". But are we there yet?

Can your

- TKD instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking skill with the throwing skill?
- Aikido instructor be able to help you to integrate the wrist locks skill with the kicking skill?
- Judo instructor be able to help you to integrate the throwing skill with the punching skill?
- BJJ instructor be able to help you to integrate the ground skill with the kicking/punching?
- MT instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking/clinching/knees/elbow skill with the ground skill?
- ...

If you need to find an instructor to help you to do the "integration" task, whom from which style will you look for? Many MMA gyms have many instructor from boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, .... We still haven't seen many instructors who can do all the above yet. IMO, 10 or even 20 more years of evolution will be needed to be able to reach to that true "integration" level.

The interest thing is, the moment that you have started to do your "integration" task, the moment that the term "style" will have very little meaning to you. IMO, it's much more fun to discuss MA on that level.

You can use

- kick from any style to set up punch from any style,
- punch to set up clinch from any style,
- clinch to set up take down from any style,
- take down to set up follow on striking, or ground game from any style.


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree with what you have said. MMA is all about "integration". But are we there yet?
> 
> Can your
> 
> - TKD instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking skill with the throwing skill?
> - Aikido instructor be able to help you to integrate the wrist locks skill with the kicking skill?
> - Judo instructor be able to help you to integrate the throwing skill with the punching skill?
> - BJJ instructor be able to help you to integrate the ground skill with the kicking/punching?
> - MT instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking/clinching/knees/elbow skill with the ground skill?
> - ...
> 
> If you need to find an instructor to help you to do the "integration" task, whom from which style will you look for? Many MMA gyms have many instructor from boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, .... *We still haven't seen many instructors who can do all the above yet.* IMO, 10 or even 20 more years of evolution will be needed to be able to reach to that true "integration" level.
> 
> The interest thing is, the moment that you have started to do your "integration" task, the moment that the term "style" will have very little meaning to you. IMO, it's much more fun to discuss MA on that level.
> 
> You can use
> 
> - kick from any style to set up punch from any style,
> - punch to set up clinch from any style,
> - clinch to set up take down from any style,
> - take down to set up ground game from any style (may be not any style but BJJ only).



My instructor can, he started as a Judoka then joined the army, because he was posted regularly around the world he took whatever martial art was available so has built up over four decades now of martial arts knowledge. Our students are becoming instructors themselves now with his knowledge and tutelage.


----------



## Mephisto

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree with what you have said. MMA is all about "integration". But are we there yet?
> 
> Can your
> 
> - TKD instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking skill with the throwing skill?
> - Aikido instructor be able to help you to integrate the wrist locks skill with the kicking skill?
> - Judo instructor be able to help you to integrate the throwing skill with the punching skill?
> - BJJ instructor be able to help you to integrate the ground skill with the kicking/punching?
> - MT instructor be able to help you to integrate the kicking/clinching/knees/elbow skill with the ground skill?
> - ...
> 
> If you need to find an instructor to help you to do the "integration" task, whom from which style will you look for? Many MMA gyms have many instructor from boxing, MT, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, .... We still haven't seen many instructors who can do all the above yet. IMO, 10 or even 20 more years of evolution will be needed to be able to reach to that true "integration" level.
> 
> The interest thing is, the moment that you have started to do your "integration" task, the moment that the term "style" will have very little meaning to you. IMO, it's much more fun to discuss MA on that level.
> 
> You can use
> 
> - kick from any style to set up punch from any style,
> - punch to set up clinch from any style,
> - clinch to set up take down from any style,
> - take down to set up follow on striking, or ground game from any style.


I'm curious where you get your info because there are plenty of instructors that teach what you claim doesn't exist yet. Many gyms still have a striking or ground coach specifically but not all gyms. MMA is becoming its own art and such many places cover all aspects of the mma spectrum in one class with one teacher. While you can use strikes and grappling technuques from any style some systems have the advantage of many generations of competition and refinement. The systems that don't compete haven't reached the same level of refinement to have instructors that can use what they know in the octagon.

This can change and may change soon. The easiest way I see to do it is to encourage competition with rulesets that cater to a specific system while still remaining practical. Tkd has had years of Olympic level competition but the ruleset is too narrow and we have yet to see it gain momentum in a more realistic hands/punch focused venue. If tkd changed its favored competition format perhaps it would join Muay thai among the ranks of valued striking arts.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I do not know if the popularity of Kenpo is declining or not.  Yet, I have noticed three Kenpo schools in Vegas closed within the last two years.  However, we did have a lot of them!


----------



## Buka

When you reach the "some old bastard" designation, you might see that there's an increase and decrease in the popularity of all arts. That popularity might be world wide, regional or local. My guess is, it will continue to change and change and change. 

But the best thing is, I'll bet everybody is having a whole lot of fun.


----------



## punisher73

When the guys of the 60's & 70's first started training, it was usually only young guys and no women or children.  Training was a lot of sparring and injuries were common.  That is the type of person "karate" drew to it.  As time went on, women and children became more frequent and also even the type of guy that was drawn to martial arts changed.  The reasons for doing a martial art changed from just fighting to various reasons.

What draws in that same type of crowd that wants to learn how to fight?  For the most part, MMA (I realize that people do MMA for other reasons as well as it gains in popularity) fits the bill for many young guys.  

MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport.  I have not seen any data that shows on average X amount of people start martial arts in a year, nor if that number is changed/influenced by people joining or switching to an MMA style gym vs. another martial art.

Of course now, it seems like all the young kids that get arrested all claim to be MMA fighters, but can never tell you who/what/when/where they had their training.  I think that some people just claim to study it because it's the "in thing".  Just like in days past when people claimed to be a blackbelt or a ninja etc. etc.


----------



## drop bear

punisher73 said:


> When the guys of the 60's & 70's first started training, it was usually only young guys and no women or children.  Training was a lot of sparring and injuries were common.  That is the type of person "karate" drew to it.  As time went on, women and children became more frequent and also even the type of guy that was drawn to martial arts changed.  The reasons for doing a martial art changed from just fighting to various reasons.
> 
> What draws in that same type of crowd that wants to learn how to fight?  For the most part, MMA (I realize that people do MMA for other reasons as well as it gains in popularity) fits the bill for many young guys.
> 
> MMA is the fastest growing SPECTATOR sport.  I have not seen any data that shows on average X amount of people start martial arts in a year, nor if that number is changed/influenced by people joining or switching to an MMA style gym vs. another martial art.
> 
> Of course now, it seems like all the young kids that get arrested all claim to be MMA fighters, but can never tell you who/what/when/where they had their training.  I think that some people just claim to study it because it's the "in thing".  Just like in days past when people claimed to be a blackbelt or a ninja etc. etc.



lol at cage fighters.


----------



## KempoBlackbelt

As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic.   I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it.   There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark.   Kempo karate came into the forefront in the 70s and 80s following the success of Bruce Lee, the Green Hornet, and the Kung Fu TV series.   Fred Villari threw Shaolin on Kempo to capitalize on the popularity of the Kung Fu series and the public didn't know the difference between any of the styles.   Fred was also a master sales person and was able to take the complexity of the formal style and turn it into something that could be taught quickly and effectively to masses of people.  Studios popped up in strip malls across the country and the world with flashy signs, shirts, and a series of movies continued to feed the frenzy.    While many child took the classes adults were up to 90% of the business in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s.   Adults are much more likely to stick with something longer term (due to a variety of reasons).    Adults committed to years of training and many had their goals set to reaching black belt.

Flash ahead to today.   Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children.   Parents encourage the students to try different things with a martial art being one of them.   Many if not most students spend a year or less in class and move on to other activities and sports.   Talking to parents they usually state they don't have the time and money to pursue it themselves and they instead let their children do it.   They also state that having their kids in class gives them some time to do errands, teach them some discipline, or just tire them out.   Kempo studios now focus in on the kids as their business by doing birthday parties and other kid related events.  Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication.   In today's society everyone wants quick results.   Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution.   At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results.   Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries.  One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself.   It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles.   MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it.   The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation.    Everything goes in cycles.   Even within the UFC different styles of fighters are highlighted.   BJJ was really hot but now you don't see BJJ dominating the fights.   More strikers and kickers (many with some type of karate background) are dominating now.  Everyone now has some BJJ experience and knows how to counter the BJJ techniques.


----------



## Buka

KempoBlackbelt said:


> As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic.   I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it.   There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark.   Kempo karate came into the forefront in the 70s and 80s following the success of Bruce Lee, the Green Hornet, and the Kung Fu TV series.   Fred Villari threw Shaolin on Kempo to capitalize on the popularity of the Kung Fu series and the public didn't know the difference between any of the styles.   Fred was also a master sales person and was able to take the complexity of the formal style and turn it into something that could be taught quickly and effectively to masses of people.  Studios popped up in strip malls across the country and the world with flashy signs, shirts, and a series of movies continued to feed the frenzy.    While many child took the classes adults were up to 90% of the business in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s.   Adults are much more likely to stick with something longer term (due to a variety of reasons).    Adults committed to years of training and many had their goals set to reaching black belt.
> 
> Flash ahead to today.   Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children.   Parents encourage the students to try different things with a martial art being one of them.   Many if not most students spend a year or less in class and move on to other activities and sports.   Talking to parents they usually state they don't have the time and money to pursue it themselves and they instead let their children do it.   They also state that having their kids in class gives them some time to do errands, teach them some discipline, or just tire them out.   Kempo studios now focus in on the kids as their business by doing birthday parties and other kid related events.  Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication.   In today's society everyone wants quick results.   Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution.   At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results.   Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries.  One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself.   It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles.   MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it.   The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation.    Everything goes in cycles.   Even within the UFC different styles of fighters are highlighted.   BJJ was really hot but now you don't see BJJ dominating the fights.   More strikers and kickers (many with some type of karate background) are dominating now.  Everyone now has some BJJ experience and knows how to counter the BJJ techniques.



Read every post I've ever written. Talk to everyone I've ever taught, trained with or fought for forty years. You will NOT hear me talk badly about anyone in Martial Arts other than ones that committed crimes or that were investigated by federal authorities, myself being one of those authorities.....and one other.... Freddie. I sit here now, three quarters of a mile from his old "World Headquarters". He was the worst thing to hit the Martial world in my lifetime. And I'm an old bastard.

Please don't  - "The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation."

As for BJJ - your statement shows you've never trained it, don't know anything about it and sure as hell never fought against it.

All I wrote above was ungentlemanly and vitriolic, purposely. All I wrote above is also true. To you, KenpoBlackbelt, I apologize. (sincerely) I do so as a gentleman of the Arts and someone who's meeting this weekend with Grandmasters of Parker Kenpo for a little get together. (Just wanted you to know where I was coming from, Brother)


----------



## Mephisto

KempoBlackbelt said:


> As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic.   I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it.   There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark.   Kempo karate came into the forefront in the 70s and 80s following the success of Bruce Lee, the Green Hornet, and the Kung Fu TV series.   Fred Villari threw Shaolin on Kempo to capitalize on the popularity of the Kung Fu series and the public didn't know the difference between any of the styles.   Fred was also a master sales person and was able to take the complexity of the formal style and turn it into something that could be taught quickly and effectively to masses of people.  Studios popped up in strip malls across the country and the world with flashy signs, shirts, and a series of movies continued to feed the frenzy.    While many child took the classes adults were up to 90% of the business in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s.   Adults are much more likely to stick with something longer term (due to a variety of reasons).    Adults committed to years of training and many had their goals set to reaching black belt.
> 
> Flash ahead to today.   Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children.   Parents encourage the students to try different things with a martial art being one of them.   Many if not most students spend a year or less in class and move on to other activities and sports.   Talking to parents they usually state they don't have the time and money to pursue it themselves and they instead let their children do it.   They also state that having their kids in class gives them some time to do errands, teach them some discipline, or just tire them out.   Kempo studios now focus in on the kids as their business by doing birthday parties and other kid related events.  Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication.   In today's society everyone wants quick results.   Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution.   At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results.   Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries.  One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself.   It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles.   MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it.   The UFC and other organizations are just the Fred Villari of this generation.    Everything goes in cycles.   Even within the UFC different styles of fighters are highlighted.   BJJ was really hot but now you don't see BJJ dominating the fights.   More strikers and kickers (many with some type of karate background) are dominating now.  Everyone now has some BJJ experience and knows how to counter the BJJ techniques.


I have to disagree here. MMA is not the equivalent to the strip mall dojo. MMA is really just one of the least restrictive rulesets for martial sport to gain popularity although it has existed on many differnt forms for years before being called mma. Some strip mall Dojos may attempt to cash in on mma popularity but they are not one in the same. These same types of Dojo have been around for years using the latest craze to attract students. as for your generalization that "many programs don't teach to correctly do a punch or kick" I'm not sure who you're referring to or where your evidence is. If you're referring to the strip mall students that train for less than a year maybe you're right. But if you think mma schools aren't teaching fighters how to kick, I'd say that's up for debate.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

KempoBlackbelt said:


> Many Kempo students are children with many studios having 90% children.


It's not just Kempo. My understanding is that for the majority of commercial schools of whatever style most of the money is in kids classes.



KempoBlackbelt said:


> Becoming a good kempo artist take a lot of time and dedication. In today's society everyone wants quick results. Kempo done correctly isn't a quick answer solution. At the same time people are bombarded with MMA and their classes offer immediate results. Unfortunately many programs don't teach how to correctly do a kick or punch before people jump into using them and this can and does lead to injuries.


Becoming a good MMA fighter takes a lot of time and dedication. I'd venture to say that it takes more hard work than it takes to earn a black belt in the majority of styles out there.

I haven't come across any legit MMA gyms that don't teach how to punch or kick correctly. Failing to do so would become pretty apparent as soon as their students stepped into the cage.



KempoBlackbelt said:


> One key thing to think about is that kempo is actually a mixed martial art in itself. It mixes the strikes and kicks, holds and submissions, weapons, etc. from all different styles. MMA is just another mixture of all the different arts with great marketing and hype behind it.



For effective communication, it's probably more useful to refer to Kempo as a "hybrid" or "eclectic" art (like many others). The term "MMA" has come to refer to the sport popularized by the UFC (and other promotions) and the approach to training* which works to prepare fighters for that style of competition.

*(We've had debates elsewhere regarding whether MMA should be regarded as a martial arts "style".)


----------



## Buka

To anyone thinking of opening a dojo - kids pay the rent and more. Crazy not to take advantage of how many kids want to be in dojos.

A big kids class helps you build a rock solid dojo for everyone else.


----------



## KempoBlackbelt

I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others.  I've heard all the stories.   The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him.  With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses.  If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people,  James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.  

In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it.   As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles.   Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it.  Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us.  There is always something to learn from others.

It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together.  There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts.  It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours.  We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school.  The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year).  We're not all "strip mall dojos".   

As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you.  After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like.  Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met.  I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else.   I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions.  It's sad.


----------



## Tez3

KempoBlackbelt said:


> It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together.



Yet you do that to MMA? You disparage something and make huge assumptions about it that don't stand up to examination. I think really, as this is a discussion about Kempo  rubbishing other styles and stylists could really be left out.


----------



## drop bear

KempoBlackbelt said:


> I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others.  I've heard all the stories.   The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him.  With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses.  If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people,  James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.
> 
> In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it.   As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles.   Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it.  Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us.  There is always something to learn from others.
> 
> It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together.  There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts.  It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours.  We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school.  The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year).  We're not all "strip mall dojos".
> 
> As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you.  After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like.  Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met.  I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else.   I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions.  It's sad.



punch and kick correctly can be a tricky issue. Mma especially comes under fire for that because it can all look kind of goober.
 The counter argument is that they are knocking people out with those incorrect techniques.


----------



## Buka

KempoBlackbelt said:


> I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others.  I've heard all the stories.   The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him.  With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses.  If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people,  James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison.
> 
> In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it.   As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles.   Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it.  Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us.  There is always something to learn from others.
> 
> It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together.  There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts.  It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours.  We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school.  The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year).  We're not all "strip mall dojos".
> 
> As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you.  After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like.  Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met.  I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else.   I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions.  It's sad.



_I understand why Fred's name brings up some bad feelings from others. _

*No, I don't think you do.*

_I've heard all the stories. _

*No, you haven't. Not even close, my friend.*

_The founder of my school was one of Fred's first black belts and also the first to leave him. _
*
I sincerely salute him. I know what a tough position he was in. I know first hand.*
_
With that said I believe you have to give credit to anyone who brings karate to the masses. _

*Karate, yes. What Freddie brought, and how he took advantage of honest people who wanted to study Karate, no. Dear God, no.*
_
If you trace the history of many of the master's of karate or martial arts in general you will find many less than honorable people, James Mitose, who most kempo people trace themselves back to, was a convicted murderer and extortionist who died in prison._

*You might want to read the case file on that case. I did. It might change your mind.*
_
In regards to BJJ statement made by Buka, yes, I've trained in it and also fought against it. _
*
You've "trained in it". Do tell, my brother, do tell. If you don't mind me asking, with whom? As for "fought against it", how'd you do?*

_As I stated we've mixed a lot into our version of Kempo including training in other styles and bringing the best of many styles. Kempo doesn't provide you ground fighting skills so you need to add BJJ or something like it. Our chief instructors have also studied in Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, BJJ, etc. We also have Master's from other styles and schools work out with us. There is always something to learn from others._
*
I salute you in this. That's awesome. Sincerely.*

_It's unfortunate that all Kempo schools gets all lumped together. _
*
I couldn't agree with you more. I know so many really good Kempo schools and it really ticks me off when some folks lump them in with a supposed style taught by people like Freddie. You don't actually know how much that/he pisses me off.*
_
There are great schools out there and there are others that are all about selling black belts. It took me 8 years to get my black belt and that was going to class 3 times a week for two hours, another hour in private weekly classes, and practicing on my own for many hours. We often have "black belts" from other schools join our school. The last one tried to work out with the black belts and decided he was better suited at a orange belt level (he had received his black belt in a little over a year). We're not all "strip mall dojos". _
*
No, you most certainly are not all strip mall dojos. It really irritates me when people think that.*

_As far as your "apology" Buka I have to feel sorry for you. _
*
I appreciate the pity, it's probably coming from a good place, but there's really no need to feel sorry. Honest. But I appreciate it anyway.* 

_After all your years in the martial arts you haven't learned to treat others with respect, even those you may not like._

*Au contraire.
And there's very few I don't "like", although that's kind of a strange term. But Fred Villare would be on the very top of that list. And the second on that list....and the third on that list.*

_Your rant was not only against Fred, but against me who you've never met._

*No. It really wasn't. Perhaps you should read what was written again, but with an open mind and a bit less defensively. If it offended you in any way, I humbly apologize.  I sincerely do. Not because I should, but because I think we probably have the same love and respect for Kenpo. It was ALL about Freddie - whom, my guess is, you've never met and don't know squat about. I have and I do.*
_
I've read many things on this board I disagree with but I respect that the opinion of someone else._

*As do I. See that? We have things in common. That's good, no?*
_
I VERY rarely post to this board though because there is always someone who can't respect others opinions. It's sad._

*No, it's not really sad, it's Martial life and we all deal with. As you do, and I do. You should post more often, it's a pretty cool place. 

Keep training, my brother. My best wishes to all you do, all I do, and all that everyone does. Best wishes, bro.*


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

The cycle of Life... empires rise, ebb, flow, and decline. With the years left to me, I hope to share my model of kenpo with a few more people before I die... hopefully, a few people who will pass it on. I am -- as with so many things -- of two minds about martial conduct in places like forums. On the one hand, we ought to strive for the warrior-scholar mentality in all we do. On the other hand, lifelong martial artists are typically warriors at heart. Is anyone surprised when the scorpion stings the frog? We ought not be too surprised when martial artists state strong opinions, then defend them.


----------



## ShotoNoob

KempoBlackbelt said:


> As someone who's trained for over 25 years almost exclusively in Kempo and a Master in it I'll give my opinion on this topic.   I've also had long discussions with my instructors who were some of the first to teach it in the 70s so I have a good background on the recent history of it.   There were some good points made in previous posts and some that missed the mark.


|
Could you summarize the strength of Kempo over the traditional styles of karate, or even MMA as we see it demonstrated in the UFC?


----------



## Touch Of Death

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Could you summarize the strength of Kempo over the traditional styles of karate, or even MMA as we see it demonstrated in the UFC?


I would say, the footwork is what separates Kenpo from the traditional styles. There is no teaching of one thing, and then having them do something completely different against a body, meaning, there isn't a sport version, and a traditional version.


----------



## hoshin1600

ill go down this rabbit hole as well....
Touch of Death, so what your saying is that you spar from a "half moon stance" and use the half moon stepping while sparing?  your comment would also imply that you never use a front horse stance while doing basics?


----------



## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> ill go down this rabbit hole as well....
> Touch of Death, so what your saying is that you spar from a "half moon stance" and use the half moon stepping while sparing?  your comment would also imply that you never use a front horse stance while doing basics?


I don't know the term half moon, and of course we use the horse stance, but we turn our torsos for center line, which makes it different from some schools. I meant thet we don't do deep stance forms and kata, but I don't speak for all Kempos and Kenpos.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Could you summarize the strength of Kempo over the traditional styles of karate, or even MMA as we see it demonstrated in the UFC?



Sure. The MMA propensity towards calling kenpo a TMA is patently ludicrous. MMA is a blend of recent and older fighting art approaches. So is kenpo. MMA, because of the level of athleticism required to prepare for the ring, views the rest of the "unconditioned" martial arts world as being as uninformed as they are out of shape. So they (MMA practitioners) combine moves and tactics from other arts which may, in fact, constitute liabilities. E.g., turning completely around with a rear-leg roundhouse (as in Thai), thus leaving your back exposed to your opponent for nearly 50% of the time. That's fine in the ring, but if you swing that kick at the head of a knife-weilding attacker in a bar, you may find yourself with a suddenly-ill-functioning kidney.

Kenpo is TMA, plus boxing, plus old judo and jujutsu, tweaked for fighting. Locals in the streets of Hawaii getting harassed and harangued by servicemen in the 40's and 50's spawned an approach to short, fast bursts of strikes to vital targets (i.e., eyes, throat, temple, knees) so single locals could hash out their differences with multiple attackers in the bars and streets near Pearl. It was not made for character development; it did not come from ancient, proud Samurai traditions. It was a bunch of street rats, summarizing and codifying their bootleg martial arts for brawling in back-alleys. Judo has a proud University and Olympic tradition, and the ultimate goal is the purification of self. Karate emanates from the Japanese culture of making sure executions are pristine, and in keeping with tradition.
Kenpo is for breaking peoples bones, in brawls.


----------



## Tez3

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The MMA propensity towards calling kenpo a TMA is patently ludicrous



I would have to say that it must be a localised to you thing if you think MMA is calling kenpo anything because outside the US kenpo isn't well known at all, so it's not all of MMA calling kenpo anything. Most of us have never heard of it.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> I would have to say that it must be a localised to you thing if you think MMA is calling kenpo anything because outside the US kenpo isn't well known at all, so it's not all of MMA calling kenpo anything. Most of us have never heard of it.


It is all Kenpo, Tez3. LOL


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Very likely. We have a plethora of MMA gyms in the area. Heck, I ran one in the mid-nineties. The guys around here happily refer to kenpo as a TMA, which I find ironic. Mr. Parkers black belts used to be excluded from TMA tournaments.

One of my favorite stories from the early days. The JMA crowd is having a tournament, and they rule that lead-hand backnuckles are no-point, because you can't generate any power in it (as compared to a rear hand punch). The Parker boy whacks a guy with a lead backfist. "No point; no power". So he does it again in the next exchange, knocking the other guy down and out. While he's sleeping it off, the ref has to make the call. Again: "No point - no power". That was a mere 45-ish years ago. Hardly ancient history.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> It is all Kenpo, Tez3. LOL




Well you may think so but to us it could just as easily be Ecky Thump!


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Well you may think so but to us it could just as easily be Ecky Thump!


As I was recently informed, it just mean China Hand, or Qin Hand, or, some how translated, fist law, which actually means, Understanding the laws and principles of nature regarding the fist, which more simply put means... Martial Art.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Wait... I always knew it meant martial art, but the Qin Hand, is new.


----------



## drop bear

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> turning completely around with a rear-leg roundhouse (as in Thai), thus leaving your back exposed to your opponent for nearly 50% of the time. That's fine in the ring, but if you swing that kick at the head of a knife-weilding attacker in a bar, you may find yourself with a suddenly-ill-functioning kidney.



Two little issues with that.

Staying front on does not really stop you being stabbed.

And the back is exposed in sport as well. So if that kick creates that opening. It creates it without the knife.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Right. Good time to shoot on someone, or slug them in the back of the neck or head.


----------



## Blindside

Touch Of Death said:


> As I was recently informed, it just mean China Hand, or Qin Hand, or, some how translated, fist law, which actually means, Understanding the laws and principles of nature regarding the fist, which more simply put means... Martial Art.



China Hand is the translation for the kanji on the patch for kara (China) te (hand).  Kenpo is the translation for fist law.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> China Hand is the translation for the kanji on the patch for kara (China) te (hand).  Kenpo is the translation for fist law.


Which means... (?)


----------



## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> China Hand is the translation for the kanji on the patch for kara (China) te (hand).  Kenpo is the translation for fist law.


Kara means empty, or if you stretch it, center, or hara. Ken, qin, and chin, work for me, but what ever the pronunciation it means the way you do martial stuff. LOL


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> but what ever the pronunciation it means* the way you do martial stuff*. LOL




Mmm that's the bit that has people arguing! "your way doesn't work" "yes it does, your way is pants" "no I've got videos to prove yours is useless and mine is supreme" etc etc etc. ad nauseum.


----------



## Blindside

Touch Of Death said:


> Kara means empty, or if you stretch it, center, or hara. Ken, qin, and chin, work for me, but what ever the pronunciation it means the way you do martial stuff. LOL



No, the kanji on Parker's patch is the kanji for "China" not "Empty" they are pronounced the same but have a different meaning.  Funakoshi changed the kanji from "China" to "empty" for philosophical and political (the Japanese were unlikely to approve of doing an art named after a major rival).  The Parker patch uses the older kanji, I can't remember but I am pretty certain Infinite Insights describes the kanji in the patch incorrectly.


----------



## Blindside

Touch Of Death said:


> Which means... (?)



Chaun-fa/Ken-po = Fist method or fist law, so maybe something like "how to use your fists" a completely generic reference to martial arts.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Mmm that's the bit that has people arguing! "your way doesn't work" "yes it does, your way is pants" "no I've got videos to prove yours is useless and mine is supreme" etc etc etc. ad nauseum.


As for that nonsense, we all have our own kenpo. It is a generic term.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> As for that nonsense, we all have our own kenpo. It is a generic term.




Tends not to be used too much here, all non martial artists think we do Judo anyway!


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Tends not to be used too much here, all non martial artists think we do Judo anyway!


Every one here thinks I do Tae Kwon Do; so, it is no different, this side..


----------



## ShotoNoob

Touch Of Death said:


> I would say, the footwork is what separates Kenpo from the traditional styles. There is no teaching of one thing, and then having them do something completely different against a body, meaning, there isn't a sport version, and a traditional version.


|
Well, I've seen YT vids of Kenpo competitors sparring similar to what we see in sport karate.  OTOH, the Kenpo practitioners that I know of in my locality (few) adhere to the more 'purist' practice you speak of.  I'm in favor of the latter, personally....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Kenpo is TMA, plus boxing, plus old judo and jujutsu, tweaked for fighting. Locals in the streets of Hawaii getting harassed and harangued by servicemen in the 40's and 50's spawned an approach to short, fast bursts of strikes to vital targets (i.e., eyes, throat, temple, knees) so single locals could hash out their differences with multiple attackers in the bars and streets near Pearl.


|
Yes, I have heard of that evolution of Kenpo.  A heavy emphasis on the actual self defense, destructive usage. But then to counter your whole post, doesn't it (Kenpo) the differ from MMA in that regard?  I'm mean MMA has safety rules.  In MMA, competitors do try from sending the opponent to the morgue, or into permanent blindness, etc.
|


Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> It was not made for character development; it did not come from ancient, proud Samurai traditions. It was a bunch of street rats, summarizing and codifying their bootleg martial arts for brawling in back-alleys. Judo has a proud University and Olympic tradition, and the ultimate goal is the purification of self. Karate emanates from the Japanese culture of making sure executions are pristine, and in keeping with tradition.
> Kenpo is for breaking peoples bones, in brawls.


|
Right.  The Hawaiian version(s) speak of this flavor.  Yet, in my area, there is/was an Chinese kempo school that shared very similar form & traditions to certain Okinawan kenpo styles.  There's even Japanese Kenpo, I think.  I'm not expert here, help me out....


----------



## Blindside

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Right.  The Hawaiian version(s) speak of this flavor.  Yet, in my area, there is/was an Chinese kempo school that shared very similar form & traditions to certain Okinawan kenpo styles.  There's even Japanese Kenpo, I think.  I'm not expert here, help me out....



Most of the "Chinese Kenpo" schools are Hawaiian derives kenpo lineages that added a later infusion of Chinese methods into their eclectic systems, this is also true of "Shaolin Kenpo."  How much actual  infusion of said Chinese methods varies on lineage and in many cases is more marketing than substance.  The term kenpo was apparently used in Okinawa as an alternate term for karate in some lineages.  I have never heard of a Japanese kenpo, but I have heard of a Shorinji Kenpo which is supposed to be essentially studying a Shaolin Chuan-Fa system through a Japanese head instructor and organization.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Blindside said:


> Most of the "Chinese Kenpo" schools are Hawaiian derives kenpo lineages that added a later infusion of Chinese methods into their eclectic systems, this is also true of "Shaolin Kenpo."  How much actual  infusion of said Chinese methods varies on lineage and in many cases is more marketing than substance.


|
My understanding that this is the route that Ed Parker took, who of course made the kenpo styles famous in America.



Blindside said:


> The term kenpo was apparently used in Okinawa as an alternate term for karate in some lineages.  I have never heard of a Japanese kenpo, but I have heard of a Shorinji Kenpo which is supposed to be essentially studying a Shaolin Chuan-Fa system through a Japanese head instructor and organization.


|
Yes, I think this is what I am seeing in my locale.  Basically Okinawan karate referred to as kenpo.  These guys look a lot like kick boxers when it comes to sparring, though there are variations as you say.
|
Anything Japanese kenpo is overshadowed by the Shotokan karate-lineage styles in Japan--IMO.  In addition to the "Chaun-Fa" version, I do believe however, that an Okinawan kenpo style or styles has been translated to Japan, the relative following is small compared to the mainstream Japanese karate styles.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Mephisto said:


> Have you read this thread or any of the other threads here? The TMA crowd (of which I consider myself part of) are rather dismissive and u accepting of mma. I've been to tna schools and heard plenty of mma and style bashing....


\
For the record, I am a dyed-in-the-wool TMA.  Perhaps the biggest mistake a TMA can make when it comes to application, readiness for fighting, is to be dismissive of MMA, imo.
|
As with K-Man, the TMA schools in my area do not talk down MMA.  In fact, although there are some opinions & attitudes about TMA vs. TMA styles, other than mild derogatory comment,  there is little open criticism of one TMA style over another.  At my current school, I have never heard any one criticize another TMA style or MMA.
|
The MMA schools do, however, talk down the TMA schools a al Matt Thorton, their own version of, "TMA is weak & flawed, etc."  I think a lot of this has to do with business promotion; much has to do with the MMA crowd being of the mind, "I would rather fight than switch;" which I translate into, "I would rather fight, period."


----------



## ShotoNoob

MATT THORTON ON ESSENTIAL QUALITIES OF THE GOOD MMA FIGHTER:
|
On the better approach to martial arts, I pretty much throw out the Matt Thornton mode.  I do have some common ground with Matt, really I can relate the Shotokan karate curriculum as an illustration.  NOT NOW.
|
Differences aside, Matt is a talented MMA coach & successful MA school owner.  And one of the aspects of doing both of these successfully is that Matt does NOT weigh too much on intellectualizing.  In fact, IMO, he captures perfectly the main qualities of the successful MMA competitor.  He goes on to say that the qualities he's talking about do not comprise the best MMA competitors, but a high percentage of the successful ones.
\
To me, these two qualities are right out of a sports playbook.  And I agree that Matt is right.  The two qualities are:
|
1. IN great shape physically, i.e. physical conditioning.
2. Aggressive.  Acting with a high level of emotional aggression.
\
Matt states that these two qualities will carry you to success a great deal of the time in MMA.  These are the kind of competitors who win MMA contests, he says.
|
Matt, HOWEVER, does not define these qualities as how to become the best MMA fighter.  He layers on skill & mental peace of mind.
|
And before we tackle Matt's theory as lacking or all wet, the KSW 31 KO of Rolles Gracie by Mariusz P___________, is a prime example of Matt's Maxim of the 2 successful qualities of the MMA fighter.  The KO vid is still out on the 'net.  An astounding confirmation of Matt Thorton's, reverse intellect rule of success for MMA....


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> For the record, I am a dyed-in-the-wool TMA.  The biggest mistake a TMA can make when it comes to application, readiness for fighting, is to be dismissive of MMA, imo.
> |
> As with K-Man, the TMA schools in my area do not talk down MMA.  In fact, although there are some opinions & attitudes about TMA vs. TMA styles, other than mild derogatory comment,  there is little open criticism of one TMA style over another.  At my current school, I have never heard any one criticize another TMA style or MMA.
> |
> The MMA schools do, however, talk down the TMA schools a al Matt Thorton, their own brand of TMA is weak & flawed, etc.  I think a lot of this has to do with business promotion, a lot has to do with the MMA crowd being of the mind, "I would rather fight than switch;" which I translate into, "I would rather fight, period."



Fighting is the core function of mma. If flaws are discussed it is discussed on the merits of how good the fighting is.

So there are two parts here. People who do martial arts for other reasons. Which is fine do what you want. And the fighting application which gets critiqued.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Fighting is the core function of mma. If flaws are discussed it is discussed on the merits of how good the fighting is.
> 
> So there are two parts here. People who do martial arts for other reasons. Which is fine do what you want. And the fighting application which gets critiqued.


|
Ah yeah.  Thought I was with you on this.  Oh, I know, too intellectual....


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ah yeah.  Thought I was with you on this.  Oh, I know, too intellectual....



Intellectual is not always a compliment. sometimes it is used for people who substitute education for common sense.

This might be applicable here. Knowing the theory doesn't always make you punch or kick any better.

Intellectual might be knowing that a round kick targets the perennial nerve.

Common sense might be an actual method of nailing shin on leg.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Intellectual is not always a compliment. sometimes it is used for people who substitute education for common sense.


|
oh, my tender heart...



drop bear said:


> This might be applicable here. Knowing the theory doesn't always make you punch or kick any better.


|
Oh, oh, not according to the KARATE by Jesse article on Okinawan Karate vs. Japanese Karate and so endorsed by K_MAN himself.  Okinawan based on WHY, Japanese based on HOW.  K-Man to me is a mix of how & why, but very why-ie in presentation.
|
And what do we have institutions of higher learning for:  we should according to you just get the result by just doing stuff.  Even MATT Thorton would disagree with you so strong here (Matt has a coaching system called the "I" training.).



drop bear said:


> Intellectual might be knowing that a round kick targets the perennial nerve.
> |
> Common sense might be an actual method of nailing shin on leg.


|
Intellectually, I don't see the discord.  Put knowledge into application correctly.  Matt Thorton would be right with me, he's a sharp coach & much better business man than I.
\
STORY OF EARLY-ON TRAINING.
|
at 1st TMA school, assistant instructor, black-belt, criticized me for being too analytical.  Banged me around a bit in class training.  Actually he was frustrated 'cause a paying job he was looking for wasn't opening up.  One day challenged me to sparring.  No contact.  I don't like sparring, the sissy / bookworm I am.
|
He stood us apart fighting distance, and said he would announce "GO," did I understand?  I said yes.  He just started to utter go and I sprang forward and hit him in the face (the 1/4" inch barrier) using the very 1st 1-step taught.  He stood flatfooted & simply said, "You won," turned & walked away and hardly ever said anything to me again.
|
MORAL: Don't judge a book by it's stereotyped cover.  After all, the critique is fighting,,,, as you just said yourself.....


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> Oh, oh, not according to the KARATE by Jesse article on Okinawan Karate vs. Japanese Karate and so endorsed by K_MAN himself. Okinawan based on WHY, Japanese based on HOW. K-Man to me is a mix of how & why, but very why-ie in presentation.
> |
> And what do we have institutions of higher learning for: we should according to you just get the result by just doing stuff. Even MATT Thorton would disagree with you so strong here.



K man endorses all sorts of stuff. I endorse other stuff.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> Intellectually, I don't see the discord. Put knowledge into application correctly. Matt Thorton would be right with me, he's a sharp coach and much better business man than I.



Because people think intellectual knowledge is a substitute for practical skill. Where intellectual knowledge is an addition to practical skill.

So people can go on about the 7 core principles of punching or chi strength, mental clarity,science and so on. But if they put the gloves on and get man handled they are wrong.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> K man endorses all sorts of stuff. I endorse other stuff.


|
Yeah, but you make it sound like my stuff is bad stuff.  It's a forum so by definition we're going to have all kind of stuff.  Intellectually that's how I look at it.
|
You remind ME of that senior-belt kickboxing type I wiped out in my first sparring test / current dojo.  He was pissed for a month before he even started to calm down.  He actually became quite cordial once he let go of trying to kill off the school intellectual who embarrassed him so in front of the entire dojo.  TEMPER TEMPER.
|
The lesson is as you've said, fighting (then) is the critique.  His WELL CONDITIONED, AGGRESSIVE style massive fail.  You know, the standard MMA formula.
|
Edit: 1-DAY in class right after our bout he was assisting the 2nd degree BB helping me.  He tried to start a fight with me.  the 2nd degree came over and reassigned him to a 3rd degree black-belt who had also tried to bully me in an evening class.  Well the kickboxer senior-belt proceeded to pound the heck out of the 3rd degree black-belt, with his Conditioning & Aggression.  Of course I was chuckling to myself whole time (see footnote).
|
2nd degree black-belt comes over to me and says softly, "He's got strength & aggression, you've got control."
|
Footnote: Intellectually, trying not to.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> One day challenged me to sparring. No contact. I don't like sparring, the sissy / bookworm I am.



He challenged you to no contact sparring?

What on earth is that?

I am envisioning a dance off.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Yeah, but you make it sound like my stuff is bad stuff.  It's a forum so by definition we're going to have all kind of stuff.  Intellectually that's how I look at it.
> |
> You remind ME of that senior-belt kickboxing type I wiped out in my first sparring test / current dojo.  He was pissed for a month before he even started to calm down.  He actually became quite cordial once he let go of trying to kill off the school intellectual who embarrassed him so in front of the entire dojo.  TEMPER TEMPER.
> |
> The lesson is as you've said, fighting (then) is the critique.  His WELL CONDITIONED, AGGRESSIVE style massive fail.  You know, the standard MMA formula.



Are you fighting anybody any good? Or just toweling up whatever goobers you have to hand.

Ok. The issue is I beat a guy up once as well. You need to stop presenting the one sparring session you did in your life with random guy as evidence over everything else.

Go sparr a quality fighter.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> K man endorses all sorts of stuff. I endorse other stuff.


You might find, if we trained together, that we endorse similar stuff.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Because people think intellectual knowledge is a substitute for practical skill. Where intellectual knowledge is an addition to practical skill.


|
Which people?  The people you dominate in martial arts, you mean.



drop bear said:


> So people can go on about the 7 core principles of punching or chi strength, mental clarity,science and so on. But if they put the gloves on and get man handled they are wrong.


|
And some other people can do the "fighting critique" & fail massively against a mentally disciplined karate fighter (which is a minority I'll give you that.).  In fact, Matt Thorton's greatest attribute for success is also his weakness when he comes to face a traditional karate fighter.  Intellectual capacity.  My very first sparring match (not counting my very early challenge from another student who proceeded to abandon the techniques we were training and punch like a boxer in the face), with the assistant instructor of my 1st TMA school proved that.  READ.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> You might find, if we trained together, that we endorse similar stuff.



Yeah quite possible. But as far as k man endorsed it thread closed. I am going to call shenanigans.

I also would pretend to assume if I endorse something it is the end of the discussion either.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> You might find, if we trained together, that we endorse similar stuff.



And as I said in another thread with the mma vs bjj methodology you would find that it gets even more similar in concept.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Yeah quite possible. But as far as k man endorsed it thread closed. I am going to call shenanigans.
> 
> I also would pretend to assume if I endorse something it is the end of the discussion either.


I know we live in the same country and supposedly speak the same language, but what exactly are you trying to say here?

What I meant in my post was I agree with much of what you post because it makes sense within my understanding whether I undertake the same training or not. On the other hand, I feel you overlook the similarities and try to focus on the differences without necessarily understanding why those differences exist.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> I know we live in the same country and supposedly speak the same language, but what exactly are you trying to say here?
> 
> What I meant in my post was I agree with much of what you post because it makes sense within my understanding whether I undertake the same training or not. On the other hand, I feel you overlook the similarities and try to focus on the differences without necessarily understanding why those differences exist.



You are being used as the infallible rock of truth.

Which I don't think you would endorse.


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Are you fighting anybody any good? Or just toweling up whatever goobers you have to hand.


|
You mean goobers to you?  The intellectual point is that so many think they are better.  I just train to get better.



drop bear said:


> Ok. The issue is I beat a guy up once as well. You need to stop presenting the one sparring session you did in your life with random guy as evidence over everything else.


|
It  is kind of a 1-dimensional picture over the internet.  Yet it was the perfect illustration, as I've written about.  In principle. In person.


drop bear said:


> Go sparr a quality fighter.


|
I really don't spend time on free sparring.  I mostly only free sparred for my testing, and my current school has acceded to this since I have demonstrated I can handle myself.  It's really not an issue for them the way it is for you here @ MT.
|
What interest's me is getting more power into my form, including that hard ki, K-Man was taking about.  I also enjoy demonstrating kihon form & overcoming my opponents with kihon-based form.  Blows their minds.  The traditional instructors like it cause it vindicates the traditional values.  Right now, I'm  reworking the Heian kata, and taking a look at the bunkai along the lines of K-Man, as well as the presented structures.  Lots; & lots to do.
|
Certain of the serious students & instructors are now trying to figure out how to get to my level of control, I'll replace "mental clarity" with "mental acuity" for brevity sake.  Training, not smashing heads like RollesGrace massive fail, not what I'm into.  His opponent is riding high for now.  I remember when Chuck Liddell got on the receiving end.  UGLY.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Which people?  The people you dominate in martial arts, you mean.
> 
> 
> |
> And some other people can do the "fighting critique" & fail massively against a mentally disciplined karate fighter (which is a minority I'll give you that.).  In fact, Matt Thorton's greatest attribute for success is also his weakness when he comes to face a traditional karate fighter.  Intellectual capacity.  My very first sparring match (not counting my very early challenge from another student who proceeded to abandon the techniques we were training and punch like a boxer in the face), with the assistant instructor of my 1st TMA school proved that.  READ.



No they would be the people I don't dominate because they tend not to frequent places that actual fighting happens.

I know guys who are intellectual who would scoff at your thought process.

It works like this. There are four of us standing around a guy holding a pen and we are discussing what would happen if he let go. And we are having an intellectual discussion about would it go up,down,left,or right. And at the end of the discussion we reach an impasse and walk off with the conclusion that we will never really know what happens.

When we could have just let go of the pen.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> You mean goobers to you? The intellectual point is that so many think they are better. I just train to get better.



Yes you argument is that sports method has these limitations. Are you sparring with someone who is successful at the sports method. Not just the guy in your dojo who is a bit emotional.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> You are being used as the infallible rock of truth.
> 
> Which I don't think you would endorse.


It's nice to know that some people appreciate me. 

It helps balance out those who don't.


----------



## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I really don't spend time on free sparring. I mostly only free sparred for my testing, and my current school has acceded to this since I have demonstrated I can handle myself. It's really not an issue for them the way it is for you here @ MT.



Ok in simplest terms. You are suggesting there is a flaw in matt Thorntons method. Which is fine.

But you are basing that evidence on a guy who has nothing to do with mat Thornton.

Have you ever seen those kung fu vs boxer videos. You are heading down that path.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> It's nice to know that some people appreciate me.
> 
> It helps balance out those who don't.



I train in an environment that comes with a bit of argey bargey.


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## K-man

You reckon, teaching Krav, I don't like a bit of argy bargy?


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## Steve

drop bear said:


> Ok in simplest terms. You are suggesting there is a flaw in matt Thorntons method. Which is fine.
> 
> But you are basing that evidence on a guy who has nothing to do with mat Thornton.
> 
> Have you ever seen those kung fu vs boxer videos. You are heading down that path.


This is the thing that's confusing me.   Shooto is just making **** up and ascribing it to Matt Thornton.   Crazytown.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> This is the thing that's confusing me.   Shooto is just making **** up and ascribing it to Matt Thornton.   Crazytown.



I don't know I never bothered to check. He just said some sort of mat Thornton method. I am like whatever. It is hard to get too clinical into his posts because I don't understand how he is getting to his conclusions.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> You reckon, teaching Krav, I don't like a bit of argy bargy?



Competition and conflict as a matter of course. I get the impression that you take dissent a bit personally and treat it as disrespect. Where for me it is a normal training setting.

Otherwise I haven't seen how you train so I am not sure at what level of argy bargy you engage in.


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## Steve

What's argy bargy?  You guys talk funny...


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> What's argy bargy?  You guys talk funny...



Argy-bargy Define Argy-bargy at Dictionary.com


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## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> No they would be the people I don't dominate because they tend not to frequent places that actual fighting happens.


|
Yeah, I try to avoid trouble also.


drop bear said:


> I know guys who are intellectual who would scoff at your thought process.


|
I'm just a shotonoob.  What'yed expect?  I'm looking for a kangaroo smiley 'cause that's the kind of court your holdling....



drop bear said:


> It works like this. There are four of us standing around a guy holding a pen and we are discussing what would happen if he let go. And we are having an intellectual discussion about would it go up,down,left,or right. And at the end of the discussion we reach an impasse and walk off with the conclusion that we will never really know what happens.
> 
> When we could have just let go of the pen.


|
Instead, I've drafted my own traditional karate training manual.  Some has dissed it.  The instructor at my 1st martial arts school was complimentary.  At a local kung fu school, the branch manager dissed it.  The owner & head master looked at it and overrode the branch manager sifu.  The master isn't big on karate and told me so.  He recognized the effort.
UNLIKE YOU.


drop bear said:


> Yes you argument is that sports method has these limitations. Are you sparring with someone who is successful at the sports method. Not just the guy in your dojo who is a bit emotional.


|
The value of the senior-belt kickboxer vignette is that it is a training case study.  It is exactly the sports vs. traditional karate contest in a nutshell.
|
I threw it out there for some to think about, especially appropriate because at my current dojo I was met by precisely your kind of negative skepticism.
|
Your answer was some logic-pen test?  Huh?  What happened to the fight-critique test?  When you lost that one, you switched to a written test.  Kinda bogus, but yes blog OK.
|
And you're kinda following in line with the senior-belt a bit emotional.  Sore loser.


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## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> This is the thing that's confusing me.   Shooto is just making **** up and ascribing it to Matt Thornton.   Crazytown.


|
It's a blog... I'm relating his publicly stated presentations on YT.  Oh, I'm  not in your league... I get it....


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## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Ok in simplest terms. You are suggesting there is a flaw in matt Thorntons method. Which is fine.


|
An interesting dimension of that is that as i study Matt Thorton, his approach I've found some commonality with the traditional karate curriculum.  Not on overall theory.  But once you get to the actual training syllabus.[/quote]


drop bear said:


> But you are basing that evidence on a guy who has nothing to do with mat Thornton.


|
As i said, you guys can keep the T's going.  A quality response would be to speak to the issue.  No one's commented meaningfully on my Rolles Gracie massive fail vid.  Some ego resistance.  How un-TMA.


drop bear said:


> Have you ever seen those kung fu vs boxer videos. You are heading down that path.


|
No you're heading down that path.  Again the quality of the practitioner, kinda left out a key variable.  Also left out my statements regarding the developmental process for TMA vs. sports.
|
Actually, the Matt Thorton Method, I wouldn't say it's flawed.  For what he's after, it's in many ways very good.  It's the claim by him that TMA theory is all BS.  That's the divide.
|
I like to see Steve make a critique of the Rolles Gracie KSW 31 KO vid,  rather than make derogatory, unsupported statements.  You know, the fight-critique test you lauded so heavily....


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## ShotoNoob

HERE'S THE OVERVIEW:
|
tma > mma.  yet MMA kicks a lot of TMA butt.  Instead of a pen-test-word game, take a look at Matt Thorton, a dyed in the wool sports approach to highlight the issues.
|
Interestingly, Connor McGregor who is doing very, very well in the UFC, I came across a source that says he trains or has trained under the Matt Thorton method.  At Matt Thorton's SBG (Straight Blast Gym).  Thorton has a chain of SBG's so it's reported.
|
I like following CM and analyzing his success.  He's up against an MMA legend, Jose Aldo, in July.  Don't know what UFC off the top of my head.  My opinion, I think CM is going to 'tool' Aldo.
|
I also think it's going to be a  test of a more thinking fighter (CM) vs. the Matt Thorton Strong Base MMA competitor (physicality & aggression), namely JA.
|
Matt Thorton will favor a CM type fighter over a JA type fighter, so we have some agreement here.
||
That if those of you can put down your-pen-word-tests & talk issues.....


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## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> ...Have you ever seen those kung fu vs boxer videos. You are heading down that path.


|
My stand is this.  Kung fu > Karate > MMA > Boxing.
\
within Kungfu styles, internal styles > external styles.  Within karate, Okinawan styles > Japanese styles.
|
In terms of ranking, the difficulty in training and achieving skill increases exponentially (for argument sake) or at least by a multiplier as you move from the lowest ranked art to the highest.
|
EDIT: Ed Parker's american kenpo is somewhere between Kung fu and Okinawan karate, kenpos in general....


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## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> My stand is this.  Kung fu > Karate > MMA > Boxing.
> \
> within Kungfu styles, internal styles > external styles.  Within karate, Okinawan styles > Japanese styles.
> |
> In terms of ranking, the difficulty in training and achieving skill increases exponentially (for argument sake) or at least by a multiplier as you move from the lowest ranked art to the highest.



Well at least we are back to over intellectualizing. I have no idea how you got those rankings.

Ok I saw the Gracie fight. Dude ate a massive right hand. What point are you making off the back of that?


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## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Well at least we are back to over intellectualizing. I have no idea how you got those rankings.


|
it's a blog post.  Yet based on principles....



drop bear said:


> Ok I saw the Gracie fight. Dude ate a massive right hand. What point are you making off the back of that?


|
It's your turn to make the point............s.


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## ShotoNoob

MMA is Great for Reality Testing.
|
IOW, I, shotonoob, have ruffled the feathers of the MT BJJ audience.  Compare Rolles Gracie's KSW 31 oppponent's action compared to the mantra in this Gracie YT vid against a purported Kenpo stylist.



|
The Gracie narrator says the striker is completely helpless against the Gracie grappler's gambit.
|
TWO KEY TAKEAWAYS.
|
Qualifier: Rolles Gracie, according to what I've read, is one of the least regarded re skill among the Gracies.
|
1. The striker who KO'd Rolles was using standard MMA striking, not claiming some 'mystical' Kenpo street fighting expertise according the to Gracie opponent narrative in the vid.  IOW, rudimentary striking.
2. Matt Thorton's formula for the generally successful MMA fighter proved out.  Physicality & Aggression.
|
I'll let the forum take it from there.....


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## ShotoNoob

Matt Thorton's Keystone MMA / Self Defense Style = BJJ.
|
Matt refers to fighting styles as "delivery" systems.  His core, what he build his style methodology around is BJJ.
|
I'm starting to get the Matt Thorton lingo down.....


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## ShotoNoob

On Royler Gracie in the YT vid.  I will say he's really fast coming in....


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## Steve

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> It's a blog... I'm relating his publicly stated presentations on YT.  Oh, I'm  not in your league... I get it....


I think you're saying more about yourself than about Matt Thornton.


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## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> I think you're saying more about yourself than about Matt Thornton.


|
I would say that is exactly the dynamic of your reply..... my friend....


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## ShotoNoob

Steve said:


> I think you're saying more about yourself than about Matt Thornton.


|
Personally, I think it's both interesting & beneficial to explore Matt Thorton's approach.  It's specifically tailored to MMA, according to Matt & his group.


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## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> it's a blog post.  Yet based on principles....
> 
> 
> |
> It's your turn to make the point............s.



Based on principles you mean because reasons?

Ok. Being punched hard in the face can make you fall over. Reading too much into that fight might be seen as being too intellectual.


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> Competition and conflict as a matter of course. I get the impression that you take dissent a bit personally and treat it as disrespect. Where for me it is a normal training setting.
> 
> Otherwise I haven't seen how you train so I am not sure at what level of argy bargy you engage in.


Nah, not at all. It's how things are discussed. The way some people challenge things is disrespectful, full stop. I am happy to discuss something, put my point of view, agree to disagree and move on. When some one with no understanding tells me I don't train a particular way because he has never seen it done that way so it wouldn't work anyway etc, then I get a bit annoyed (and here I am not talking about you).

There are many posts put on MT outside my area of practise that have comments that are at odds with my experience. I let them go, I don't jump in and tell the guys discussing it that their style sucks and what they are talking about won't work. There was a WC post yesterday with a video demonstrating power generation. I just commented that it was the exact same way of training it that I teach simply to say from my POV, great work. There are bits of WC that don't work for me but you won't find comments from me on those anywhere here on MT.

Now as to argy bargy ... pretty much anything anyone wants to try out is fair game. My classes are informal so as long as what people want to do is safe, in control and within their capability they can go as hard as they like. For example, if you did come to train, knowing your area of expertise, I would pretty much give you the floor for a big part of the night to play with ground work and for most of that I would be your partner so I could judge how my skills matched someone with more expertise than me. You might submit me every time, but I would be testing you and make you work for it.


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## drop bear

K-man said:


> Nah, not at all. It's how things are discussed. The way some people challenge things is disrespectful, full stop. I am happy to discuss something, put my point of view, agree to disagree and move on. When some one with no understanding tells me I don't train a particular way because he has never seen it done that way so it wouldn't work anyway etc, then I get a bit annoyed (and here I am not talking about you).
> 
> There are many posts put on MT outside my area of practise that have comments that are at odds with my experience. I let them go, I don't jump in and tell the guys discussing it that their style sucks and what they are talking about won't work. There was a WC post yesterday with a video demonstrating power generation. I just commented that it was the exact same way of training it that I teach simply to say from my POV, great work. There are bits of WC that don't work for me but you won't find comments from me on those anywhere here on MT.
> 
> Now as to argy bargy ... pretty much anything anyone wants to try out is fair game. My classes are informal so as long as what people want to do is safe, in control and within their capability they can go as hard as they like. For example, if you did come to train, knowing your area of expertise, I would pretty much give you the floor for a big part of the night to play with ground work and for most of that I would be your partner so I could judge how my skills matched someone with more expertise than me. You might submit me every time, but I would be testing you and make you work for it.



The last bit but with conversation.

One of these days you are going to have to find out what I actually do regarding training methodology. 

But different thread.


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## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Based on principles you mean because reasons?
> 
> Ok. Being punched hard in the face can make you fall over. Reading too much into that fight might be seen as being too intellectual.


|
You know I was just reading the interchange between Matt Bryers & Chris Parker (Combat Jui-Jitsu T).  My take was that Chris was bringing in some very precise & exact determinations regarding how Matt B defined his style.  Matt B, on the other hand was covering a broader base of describing what his art was about and how he got where he was.  Kinda of an Apples & Oranges discussion from an understanding what was in each participants head.
|
I also thought both participants made a good effort to resolve the discussion which unfortunately didn't pan out.
|
Regardless of whether Matt B answered Chris Parker's question, I took a look at Matt's presentation for the benefits he can offer.....


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## drop bear

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> You know I was just reading the interchange between Matt Bryers & Chris Parker (Combat Jui-Jitsu T).  My take was that Chris was bringing in some very precise & exact determinations regarding how Matt B defined his style.  Matt B, on the other hand was covering a broader base of describing what his art was about and how he got where he was.  Kinda of an Apples & Oranges discussion from an understanding what was in each participants head.
> |
> I also thought both participants made a good effort to resolve the discussion which unfortunately didn't pan out.
> |
> Regardless of whether Matt B answered Chris Parker's question, I took a look at Matt's presentation for the benefits he can offer.....



Matt did answer the question in that it is not traditional in the sense that Chris wanted it to be because it was better.

Just he was being nice about trying to say it.

But I am not sure how that is relevant to this thread.


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## Buka

Mariusz Pudzianowski is a pretty strong guy. (ya think?) I'd hate to get clocked by that shot.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Mariusz Pudzianowski is a pretty strong guy. (ya think?) I'd hate to get clocked by that shot.



That was fast as well. I have mentioned why wild swingy punches become high percentage. That is a good example. I mean if you have to fight while constantly worrying about eating that. It stops your ability to employ a lot of your own techniques because you just cant close on a guy and risk getting nailed.


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## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> Matt did answer the question in that it is not traditional in the sense that Chris wanted it to be because it was better.
> 
> Just he was being nice about trying to say it.
> 
> But I am not sure how that is relevant to this thread.


|
I was affirming that which was the point of the post.  The moral was obviously lost on your reply.....
|
Furthermore, for all of Matt Bryers accomplishments, he was very open to discussion from the MT audience on that T..
|
Moreover, he responded to the question in detail & substance.  Just not to the exactingly precise in terms & intricately detained definition that Chris Parker was coming from....


----------



## ShotoNoob

drop bear said:


> OK fighting and intellectual pursuits.


|
I think there is some confusion with intellectual meaning over-thinking instead of good thinking.



drop bear said:


> You are competing physically and mentally against other people. That is the game of fighting. The monkey stomping only happens after you have worked your way though the other guys defence and tactics and prevented him from getting through yours.


|
Very direct & too the point.  Yet by isolating out Kenpo technique, you have omitted the part of Kenpo curriculum that addresses your competent point.



drop bear said:


> This is a system that is over engendered and over complicated. The more you delve into the tactics and techniques of fighting the more you realise that the system itself has these endless depths of intellectual pursuit.


|
Right, this is why I choose to practice a simpler form of karate.  Yet you have K-MAN who engages in a karate style with more advanced technique, kata.  So practitioners are matching the level of challenge to their personal style.  And time constraints, etc.



drop bear said:


> Eg. Not many techniques.


 I don't know I agree with that.  Doesn't having a hoard of techniques complicating?



drop bear said:


> Here is 51 guard sweeps. Now for self defence you could get away with one guard sweep. I know and practice around three at my level. And get away with that. At the top of their game 51 guard sweeps.


|
So here we have complexity in number or variations of guard sweeps (51), which according to you are NOT really necessary & practical. So some kenpo stylists concentrate on a handful of monkey stop gambits, etc. instead of what someone said, 150.  Same concept of presenting alternatives....



drop bear said:


> The reason is the other guy is not coming at you after having spent time on his tough face. He has been practising guard sweep defences. So now you need an option when your primary sweep does not work.


 I would say that's the point of all the fighting combos presented in Kenpo.  Presenting ideas for different comebacks on the part of the opponent.
|
I think the BJJ popularity is it's more physical than mental.  It's on physically having toolbox that you can put on with quick reactions that befuddle & out fox the opponent.
|
And I wouldn't call the mechanics of ground fighting by BJJ absent complexity.  I've seen the time standard to reach a black-belt under the Gracie system around 7 years.  The same kind of time standard we see in the TMA systems.....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Kenpo is not popular in my local.
|
The two kenpo stylists I know personally (American Kenpo) are very bright guys, much better than me on complicated technique.
|
Kenpo suits the aptitude of this kind of practitioner.  These guys are very quick to think about the possibilities when they are fighting.  Key word, think.


----------



## ShotoNoob

One lesson of my "Chris Parker-related reply" is that level of sophistication inherent in a martial art style or the study of martial arts, is going to winnow the numbers.
|
The OP poses a great decision-tree facing martial artists.  Simpler may be better for you, not better against a non-simple opponent.


----------

