# The Methods of Generating Power



## KenpoEMT (Jan 19, 2006)

What are all the methods for generating power?

To begin with (off the top of my head in the wee hours of the morning):

Torque (including preparatory)
Marriage of Gravity
Borrowed Forces
Orbital Adjustment
Momentary Levitation
Momentum
Intersecting Forces
Back-up Mass
Implosive Action
Elliptical Motion/Elongated Circles
Completed Path of Travel
Elliptical Confinement
Catapulting


...and I'm out.  

What did I leave out?


----------



## Zoran (Jan 20, 2006)

In the interest of moving the discussion along so practitioners from other Kenpo systems can understand, check out http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpoterminology.html for a difinition of most of the EPAK terminology used.


----------



## jonah2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> What are all the methods for generating power?


Which from your list do you consider as GENERATING power. Can we split into pure generation and tranference?

jonah


----------



## KenpoEMT (Jan 20, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Can we split into pure generation and tranference?


Absolutely!
I'd ponder all the methods and concepts (and combinations thereof) that you can think of.




> check out http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpoterminology.html for a difinition of most of the EPAK terminology used.


Thanks, man. Didn't think about that.




Won't be back online again till sunday.  Hope that the discussion grows until then!


----------



## jonah2 (Jan 20, 2006)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> Absolutely!....


In martial arts terms of generating power, the initial thought is propelling the mass of our natural weapon to its target at maximum velocity / momentum. Anatomically speaking this can be achieved through correct use of muscle groups and breathing and aligning elements / body parts correctly, including foundation / base. Using alignment mechanisms as taught by a certain fraternity seems to increase things but I dont know why yet. Ive yet to work out if these are helpful for pure generation or transference.

Using these we can generate as much power as our body will allow. Once this generation is achieved we have to concentrate on transferring that power to obtain maximum effect to the target.

From your list:
Torque (including preparatory) - Generation (increase velocity / momentum)
Marriage of Gravity - Generation (increase velocity / momentum)
Borrowed Forces - Generation (increase velocity / momentum)
Momentary Levitation  dont understand, please explain this 
Momentum - Generation
Back-up Mass - Transference
Elliptical Motion/Elongated Circles - Economy
Completed Path of Travel - Transference

Additional:
Angle of incidence  Transference
Target choice  Transference
Area of impact  Transference
Range / penetration - Transference

My thoughts anyway
jonah


----------



## Rick Wade (Jan 20, 2006)

Keeping the elbow in tight with the body.

V/R

Rick


----------



## jdinca (Jan 20, 2006)

Waist moves first, arm/leg moves second. Let the body generate the speed and power, not the arm/leg.


----------



## KenpoEMT (Jan 23, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Momentary Levitation  dont understand, please explain this


Sorry about the long delay in replying. Haven't been online since friday morning.

Momentary Levitation is just the fancified label for going airborne.  

Honestly the only time that I would feel comfortable using momentary levitation is when I wish to magnify the damage delivered from a strike aimed directly downward.

Excerpt from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo:
"MOMENTARY LEVITATION" - A brief moment of suspension in air prior to using marriage of gravity when kicking or striking.  An example of this can be found in the self-defense technique called the LEAP OF DEATH." (pg. 82)


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 23, 2006)

You guys are sure making things complicated.

Directional Harmony
Directional Opposites
Alignment
Torque

That's really it.   Everything else you've named is a sub-cat to those, for example: keeping the elbows tight with the body, that's BODY FUSION, that's sub-cat of Alignment and/or Torque.

The idea of Kenpo is sophisicated simplicity and that's pretty simple example of power principles.  

 Kinetic energy is an expression of the fact that a moving object can do work on anything it hits; it quantifies the amount of work the object could do as a result of its motion. The total mechanical energy of an object is the sum of its kinetic energy and potential energy.

For an object of finite size, this kinetic energy is called the translational kinetic energy of the mass to distinguish it from any rotational kinetic energy it might possess - the total kinetic energy of a mass can be expressed as the sum of the translational kinetic energy of its center of mass plus the kinetic energy of rotation about its center of mass. 









Something else, your weapons can only withstand as much impact as you've trained them, and with that being said, if you haven't conditioned your weapons, then using all those principles will get you nowhere when you meet your opponents flesh and your weapons shatter.    Velocity, weight, all that has no bearing at all if your weapons cannot withstand the impact of hitting your target.

DarK LorD


----------



## kevin kilroe (Jan 23, 2006)

What about speed? EXPLOSIVE speed. Going from 0 to 100 in a split second. Flipping the switch from nice guy to mean S.O.B. Being able to summon up your chi at a moments notice. Oh, what a feeling!

kevin kilroe


----------



## jonah2 (Jan 24, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> You guys are sure making things complicated....


Sir,

I dont think I was over complicating things  my thoughts are quite simple. I split power (in terms of our natural weapons hitting a target) into two  Generation and transference.

I split it down like that because you need both to have maximum affect on a target.

You talk in terms of kinetic energy in a complicated way yourself. In simplistic terms we transfer our potential energy from our body muscle and skeletal frame into kinetic energy for our thrown weapon, Kinetic Energy is the energy an object has, due to its mass and velocity.

The trouble with Newtons laws is that kinetic energy and potential energy are interchangeable. To gain maximum damage we must ensure that the transference of the kinetic energy from our weapon is to the bad guy at an effective point / direction. Any change outside of the target or return to ourselves is wasted.

All my points were - 1, to gain maximum generation and 2, maximum transference. Whether they are categories or sub-categories is irrelevant in terms of the question.

Good point about the conditioning though.

jonah


----------



## spiderboy (Jan 24, 2006)

The three key things Ive been taught to _generate_ power are marriage of gravity, torque, and back up mass.

That keeps it nice and simple for my struggling brain - correctly line up everything I've got, and let it loose all at the same time 

I disagree about speed. I'm not educated much in science, but I've been hit fast badly, and I've been hit slow and it HURTS when its done properly!


Just my 2 pence.


Respectfully,


Alex


----------



## KenpoEMT (Jan 24, 2006)

You bring up an interesting point. Whoever hit you with greater velocity and did not inflict damage probably did not hit you correctly 

Velocity is far more important than mass when generating power. Mass without velocity has only potential energy; however, even an item consisting of a small amount of mass moving at great velocity can inflict incredible damage. This is not to say that mass is meaningless. Great mass moving at high velocity contains great energy.

Example: A small woman (who is out-massed by her opponent) has the potential to inflict greater damage than her opponent if her strikes are delivered at a greater velocity than her opponent's strikes, yet because of her smaller mass, she must move with greater velocity to begin with just to match the possible power of her opponent.  
In short, a very small yet incredibly fast female will deliver strikes containing greater power than a large, slow male. If she faces a very large and equally fast male, she cannot hope to match his power (hopefully she has a higher skill level).


----------



## jdinca (Jan 24, 2006)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> You bring up an interesting point. Whoever hit you with greater velocity and did not inflict damage probably did not hit you correctly
> 
> Velocity is far more important than mass when generating power. Mass without velocity has only potential energy; however, even an item consisting of a small amount of mass moving at great velocity can inflict incredible damage. This is not to say that mass is meaningless. Great mass moving at high velocity contains great energy.
> 
> ...


 
I've been the big, slow male struck by the small, fast woman. Even in a controlled setting, the resulting bruises were impressive.


----------



## spiderboy (Jan 25, 2006)

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> You bring up an interesting point. Whoever hit you with greater velocity and did not inflict damage probably did not hit you correctly
> .


I totally agree. Like I said, I've been hit fast - badly . 

I guess my thoughts have always been that speed on its own is pointless without the combined application of what has already been discussed. Thats why we stress technique before speed to beginners. They want to go at 100mph because it looks 'cool' (I know I did!) Slowing them down enough to correctly apply the technique is half the battle 

Interesting thread.

Respectfully,

Alex


----------



## KenpoDave (Jan 29, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Waist moves first, arm/leg moves second. Let the body generate the speed and power, not the arm/leg.


 
Typically, then, the waist also stops first, creating a whip, but no real power.  The arm should move first, then the forward knee should drop forward, then the waist should turn.  ALL should still be in motion at the moment of impact.


----------



## jdinca (Jan 30, 2006)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Typically, then, the waist also stops first, creating a whip, but no real power. The arm should move first, then the forward knee should drop forward, then the waist should turn. ALL should still be in motion at the moment of impact.


 
Depends on the timing of the movement. All should be in motion at the moment of impact but all should stop together at the end of the strike. The waist followed by the shoulders, or by the leg in the case of a kick, creates torque at the beginning of the movement and it unwinds as the arm or leg moves. The result is more speed which is more power. Again, timing is the key.


----------



## KenpoDave (Feb 5, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Depends on the timing of the movement. All should be in motion at the moment of impact but all should stop together at the end of the strike. The waist followed by the shoulders, or by the leg in the case of a kick, creates torque at the beginning of the movement and it unwinds as the arm or leg moves. The result is more speed which is more power. Again, timing is the key.


 
The waist only moves about 10-15 inches, the arm must travel about 3-4 feet.  If the waist starts first, then the timing is off from the get go.

If you are talking about very short range strikes, maybe, but not for full range.


----------



## jdinca (Feb 6, 2006)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> The waist only moves about 10-15 inches, the arm must travel about 3-4 feet. If the waist starts first, then the timing is off from the get go.
> 
> If you are talking about very short range strikes, maybe, but not for full range.



You're assuming that the arm will be moving at the same speed as the waist. I wish I could explain it better but it does work. I'm not talking about really exaggerating the movement, I'm talking about initiating movement from the waist, not the arm. As an example, throw a punch while going from a neutral bow to a hard bow. Do it slowly with the waist initiating the movement and see if you notice a difference.


----------



## Zoran (Feb 6, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> You're assuming that the arm will be moving at the same speed as the waist. I wish I could explain it better but it does work. I'm not talking about really exaggerating the movement, I'm talking about initiating movement from the waist, not the arm. As an example, throw a punch while going from a neutral bow to a hard bow. Do it slowly with the waist initiating the movement and see if you notice a difference.



The problem will be that you will telegraph your strike if you move your waist or body first. 

Since we are talking about torque, I would like to put my 2 cents in. There are three areas of your body where the torque happens. The feet (pivot), waist, and shoulders. you can find that you can rotate your waist slighly without moving your feet. Same thing with shoulders relative to your waist. If find that when I torque, I tend to move each an inch or so past the other (waist past feet, shoulders past waist). When I first started working on this several years ago, I found the power of my strikes have drastically increased. Especially the power of shorter strikes.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Depends on the timing of the movement. All should be in motion at the moment of impact but all should stop together at the end of the strike. The waist followed by the shoulders, or by the leg in the case of a kick, creates torque at the beginning of the movement and it unwinds as the arm or leg moves. The result is more speed which is more power. Again, timing is the key.


 
I would actually say the they begin moving at the same time.  Pivot from the feet, thru the waist and shoulders and down the arm to the fist, but it all initiates together, at the same time.  And yes, when impact happens they are all still moving, with the possible exception of the feet.

If the waist moves first, then the shoulders and arm, you have already lost the potential power that the waist gives.  In short, you have separated your upper body from your base, in terms of generating power.  You are now relying on only the physical strength of the upper body, with whatever pivoting benefit that you can get from the shoulders.  But if you relax completely and keep the whole body moving together, then you can hit just as hard, if not harder, but exert much less effort.


----------



## jdinca (Feb 6, 2006)

Zoran said:
			
		

> The problem will be that you will telegraph your strike if you move your waist or body first.



The movement isn't that exaggerated and the timing has the rest of the body coming right behind it. There shouldn't be enough time for it to be telegraphed. I would much rather use the larger mass of the body to initiate the torque for a strike than the arm, with the body following behind.

All I can tell you is that once I was able to utilize this concept, my speed and power increased dramatically.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 6, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> The movement isn't that exaggerated and the timing has the rest of the body coming right behind it. There shouldn't be enough time for it to be telegraphed. I would much rather use the larger mass of the body to initiate the torque for a strike than the arm, with the body following behind.
> 
> All I can tell you is that once I was able to utilize this concept, my speed and power increased dramatically.


What you telegraph in the obscure zone, is not a telegragh. Its obscure. I agree with jdinca on this point.
Sean


----------



## KenpoDave (Feb 8, 2006)

I worked my punches this way for years, until I met Dr. Roger Greene about 3 years ago.  He taught me the theory behind moving the part of the body that travels the farthest first.  Kyoshi Greene has the reputation of being one of the hardest hitters around.  I know that in about 3 hours, he managed to significantly increase my power, and significantly increase the range over which I could use it.


----------



## MJS (Jun 17, 2008)

Bumping this back for discussion.   I feel that this is an important aspect in Kenpo.


----------



## marlon (Jun 22, 2008)

perhaps this question could be made more specific.  there are many factors that come into play depending on the situation and the weapon and the angle, the direction.  Generating power into a strike can work differently.  In many cases it comes down to timing, use of mass / rooting and proper mechanics.  that covers what...how isanother question

respectfully,
marlon


----------

