# Training for older people



## Gnarlie (Mar 26, 2015)

Hi

I've recently inherited a Taekwondo class that is mostly populated with people in the age range 60 to 70. Does anyone have any advice to offer? It's certainly a different challenge from my usual training scenario!


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

I work with a lot of retirees, it's hapkido but I understand many of the challenges that come with an older class.


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

First I would find out who has what health issue, trust me they'll have a whole list of things.


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

Then I would differentiate between folks who have been doing martial arts all these years and new people off the street.  An older person who has been doing TKD for 30 or 40 years is going to be in a much better situation than someone who hasn't.


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

My oldest student is 67.  He's a unique combination of strong and brittle. He's capable of striking very hard but he also feels joint manipulation much more than the young kids.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2015)

Instructor said:


> First I would find out who has what health issue, trust me they'll have a whole list of things.




We aren't all old codgers falling apart you know!


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

No disrespect intended to present company.  My folks have had shoulder surgeries and work done on knees and hips that sort of thing.  If the student is a paragon of health then excellent!  My experience with older students is that most have some medical malady that you need to be aware of.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

Here are some notes I previously made on this topic:

Tips for Taekwondo Instructors - Taekwondo Wiki

I just added a few more thoughts as well. If anybody else has any other tips, I'll add those too.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We aren't all old codgers falling apart you know!



EXACTLY!!!!

Well I am...but that has nothing to do with it


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2015)

Rather than treat the old uns like kids by asking what their ailments are, I'd treat them as the adults they are and let them manage their ailments, conditions etc.
They aren't teenagers who are liable to try to do more than they can, they have nothing to prove, they aren't kids who will whine if it hurts, they'll be sensible and know their limits so my advice, from an old one is treat them as the martial arts class they are. They will surprise you I guarantee.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 26, 2015)

People generally know how their body is holding up, things they can and can't do so I would start by just telling to listen to their bodies and only do what they feel they can do without injuring themselves. Just because it's TKD it doesn't mean they have to jump high or do fancy kicks if they're not up to it..


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Rather than treat the old uns like kids by asking what their ailments are, I'd treat them as the adults they are and let them manage their ailments, conditions etc.
> They aren't teenagers who are liable to try to do more than they can, they have nothing to prove, they aren't kids who will whine if it hurts, they'll be sensible and know their limits so my advice, from an old one is treat them as the martial arts class they are. They will surprise you I guarantee.














Believe me, someone comes into an MA class to teach and tells me to do something... I will be the first to tell them If I can or not. Example: I can't do jumping jacks, my knees would get really mad if I did..... I don't have anything to prove so don't worry about me, don't placate me, don't treat me like a child, just get on with it and train, I will do what I can and let you know when I can't.

You may find if start treating adults like children that you sill be down an entire class, they will go elsewhere


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

Okay Okay...


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

For what it's worth I ask the youngin's the same questions...


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## WaterGal (Mar 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Rather than treat the old uns like kids by asking what their ailments are, I'd treat them as the adults they are and let them manage their ailments, conditions etc.
> They aren't teenagers who are liable to try to do more than they can, they have nothing to prove, they aren't kids who will whine if it hurts, they'll be sensible and know their limits so my advice, from an old one is treat them as the martial arts class they are. They will surprise you I guarantee.



Well, I think it depends on how you approach it.  I think it's reasonable to say something like "let me know if you have any health issues that will affect your training".  We ask all introductory students that, regardless of age, since even kids can have asthma, joint problems, etc.  Just don't be patronizing about it and act like they must have something wrong with them because they're old.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

Age 54 here (with plenty of large-joint arthritis)...even when I remind my instructors about things I can't do, in the excitement of the moment they sometimes forget, and unwittingly encourage me to try. Personally, I'm always appreciative when an instructor asks, "Do you think you can do this?" I don't find it condescending...it comes-across to me as them paying attention.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Age 54 here (with plenty of large-joint arthritis)...even when I remind my instructors about things I can't do, in the excitement of the moment they sometimes forget, and unwittingly encourage me to try. Personally, I'm always appreciative when an instructor asks, "Do you think you can do this?" I don't find it condescending...it comes-across to me as them paying attention.




It depends how it's said, I don't mind having someone unwittingly encouraging me because I know my own mind as to what I can do and can't, I'm not going to be egged on to do something I can't.
Being asked if you can do something shouldn't be condescending but the tone of voice and attitude of the person asking will let you determine whether it is or not, you come up with an appropriate answer whichever


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

I did not mean to sound condescending and apologize to all if I did.  I have the utmost respect for my students and I encourage them to excel in martial arts.


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## Geo (Mar 26, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Believe me, someone comes into an MA class to teach and tells me to do something... I will be the first to tell them If I can or not. Example: I can't do jumping jacks, my knees would get really mad if I did..... I don't have anything to prove so don't worry about me, don't placate me, don't treat me like a child, just get on with it and train, I will do what I can and let you know when I can't.
> 
> You may find if start treating adults like children that you sill be down an entire class, they will go elsewhere



In our Art we ask potential students to complete a questionnaire regarding their current health before they even participate in any free trial lessons.  This questionnaire asks the potential students or their guardians to declare any physical limitations they or their children may have due to medical or health issues.  As the Senior Instructor of my dojang I make it my responsibility to be aware of potential students' physical limitations and adjust their training or participation accordingly. 

I believe that this is responsible and good student management.  Somehow I find it irresponsible to allow any student to start training without ascertaining their ability to participate in a physical activity such as martial arts young or old.  If one can't do basic physical activities necessary for them to participate in a martial arts class even at a very basic level then they shouldn't be allowed to participate.

Regards


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## K-man (Mar 26, 2015)

Three of my karate guys as well as myself are in our sixties. Three of us have been around for what seems centuries and the other one was about 63 or 64 when he started. For the experienced ones, we ask for no favours but as for everyone else, we work within our limitations of chronic injuries such as knees. I find the wiki information a bit weak really as it is almost suggesting cotton wool for older practitioners. 

I'll give an example from my training. In Aikido a couple of days ago we had continuous forward rolls. I did about thirty I guess. Then falling back and rolling out backwards about another twenty. I was tired but not dizzy. The wiki article talks about one roll causing problems. In another class I had a decent thigh protector in place as I was testing the guys' shin kicks to the thigh. I reckon I must have worn 50 full force kicks to each thigh. Twice I actually hit the deck from the force of the kicks. I wouldn't ask or expect any of my younger guys to take that sort of pounding.

Some people can't take pressure at any age but others at 60 will be as good  as anyone else. I don't differentiate. I just ask people to give the best that they've got.


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## Instructor (Mar 27, 2015)

I actually love working with people above the age of 40.  It just seems like younger folks have a lot more distractions which often take them away from training.  Retirees often come to me and say they've always wanted to learn martial arts and just never got around to it when they were younger.  Oft times these folks are the most dedicated and reliable students in my school. 
Youngsters on the other hand have other things going on.  I had a student in his early 20's that was real solid for about 6 months then one day he brought a girlfriend to practice and then I never saw him again.  It was like his brain was: Hapkido, Hapkido, Hapkido, Hapkido.... GIRL, GIRL, GIRL, GIRL....


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 27, 2015)

most older students will tell you up front if they have medical problems that may  not allow them to do certain things.  If they do not say anything treat them like anyone else until they say they can not do something  OR until you notice they are having problems then ask them in private if they are having a medical problem


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)

Instructor said:


> younger folks



I'll have you know that I may look older but I'm 18 in my head!


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## TrueJim (Mar 27, 2015)

K-man said:


> I find the wiki information a bit weak really as it is almost suggesting cotton wool for older practitioners...



It is a wiki...if there's anything on the wiki that folks here disagree with, feel free to edit it!  The more contributors the better!

I noticed that some folks have started a Spanish version of the wiki as well, *Taekwondo Wiki* . Any Spanish-speakers on here, it looks like they could use some help!


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 27, 2015)

Instructor said:


> I did not mean to sound condescending and apologize to all if I did.  I have the utmost respect for my students and I encourage them to excel in martial arts.



It didn't sound so to me. My experience tells me some seniors will be unwilling to admit to being old and decrepit, or out of shape, or younger people will not like to admit to a medical problem.  They will tell themselves, and then you, that they can overcome anything.  Whereas if you know ahead of time, you may be able to give them a different pace to get themselves in shape, or ways around a physical abnormality they may have.  I think that is particularly true with Hapkido.  Has that been your experience Instructor?


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## Instructor (Mar 27, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> It didn't sound so to me. My experience tells me some seniors will be unwilling to admit to being old and decrepit, or out of shape, or younger people will not like to admit to a medical problem.  They will tell themselves, and then you, that they can overcome anything.  Whereas if you know ahead of time, you may be able to give them a different pace to get themselves in shape, or ways around a physical abnormality they may have.  I think that is particularly true with Hapkido.  Has that been your experience Instructor?


 
Not always but now and again I'll get a "special needs" student that requires a different approach to training.  It's best for the teacher to know what he's dealing with so that he can adjust instruction to suit.  So yes I think so.


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## Instructor (Mar 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'll have you know that I may look older but I'm 18 in my head!


 
Me too!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2015)

Geo said:


> In our Art we ask potential students to complete a questionnaire regarding their current health before they even participate in any free trial lessons.  This questionnaire asks the potential students or their guardians to declare any physical limitations they or their children may have due to medical or health issues.  As the Senior Instructor of my dojang I make it my responsibility to be aware of potential students' physical limitations and adjust their training or participation accordingly.
> 
> I believe that this is responsible and good student management.  Somehow I find it irresponsible to allow any student to start training without ascertaining their ability to participate in a physical activity such as martial arts young or old.  If one can't do basic physical activities necessary for them to participate in a martial arts class even at a very basic level then they shouldn't be allowed to participate.
> 
> Regards



I have no problem with that, I had to do that when I trained JKD. I am also the first to tell anyone that I am going to train with exactly what I can and cannot do and even after filling out the form for JKD I stopped the teacher during warm-up and told him I simply cannot do jumping jacks and he went to something else for warm-up. However if someone is isolating anyone over 50 as old and treating them as such or thinking they should be approached differently than younger student in a way that treats them like they need to be singled out based solely on age is plain wrong, it is age discrimination. If they are asking all students these questions that is perfectly OK, if they are training someone, old or young, differently based on known physical limitations that is fine too. But a word of advice on that one, do not discuss their physical limitation with anyone else without their permission because that could get you in big trouble.





Gnarlie said:


> Hi
> 
> I've recently inherited a Taekwondo class that is mostly populated with people in the age range 60 to 70. Does anyone have any advice to offer? It's certainly a different challenge from my usual training scenario!



Example

Reading his post from the other side of half a century that can come across as, and I absolutely do not think this is what Gnarlie meant to say, but it can come across this way

"how do I teach decrepit old people"

And yes I do know that teaching a 20 year old is different than teaching a 60 year old, but that does not mean teaching one is any harder than teaching the other, frankly the 60 year old is more likely to listen and follow instructions than the 20 year old....and I know that because I use to be 20...been 20 twice actually and working on a 3rd time. And I know at my current age I am a lot more likely to follow exactly what any instructor says to the T that I was at 20.


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)

Would you treat women that have had children any differently because they may have a problem when jumping, moving suddenly and doing things like squats?


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## jks9199 (Mar 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Example
> 
> Reading his post from the other side of half a century that can come across as, and I absolutely do not think this is what Gnarlie meant to say, but it can come across this way
> 
> ...



You know, with Tae Kwon Do, there's a darn good chance he's gone from teaching kids and preteens to teaching folks in their 60s. That's certainly a major change...

There's been lots of good advice.  The heart of it, to me, is simple:  Teach the student, not the class.  Whether they're 7, 17, 27, or 77... each student has their own mix of strengths and weaknesses as well as limitations.  Keep that in mind, and always make it clear that each student should feel that they can either approach you or adjust to their limitations.


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## K-man (Mar 27, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> It is a wiki...if there's anything on the wiki that folks here disagree with, feel free to edit it!  The more contributors the better!
> 
> I noticed that some folks have started a Spanish version of the wiki as well, *Taekwondo Wiki* . Any Spanish-speakers on here, it looks like they could use some help!


Mate, I apologise. I didn't realise it was your wiki page. Mea Culpa. 

All I was meaning was that it appeared that older guys were being portrayed in a different way. Now TKD is obviously quite different to anything I practise and I couldn't do a high kick now if my life depended on it, but older people can build up to a quite high level of strength and fitness that enables them to compete with much younger guys, if they are dedicated. For example, I do a pretty thorough gym circuit six days a week. That stands me in good stead to match my generally much younger students when there is any physical work.

The other thing is that my training is a bit like BJJ, aikido and other similar arts where I am teaching smaller, weaker or older folk to overcome larger stronger opponents. Normally that isn't the case in a sport based environment where you have weight and age classes. 

So horses for courses, I humbly retire with my tail between my legs.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have no problem with that, I had to do that when I trained JKD. I am also the first to tell anyone that I am going to train with exactly what I can and cannot do and even after filling out the form for JKD I stopped the teacher during warm-up and told him I simply cannot do jumping jacks and he went to something else for warm-up. However if someone is isolating anyone over 50 as old and treating them as such or thinking they should be approached differently than younger student in a way that treats them like they need to be singled out based solely on age is plain wrong, it is age discrimination. If they are asking all students these questions that is perfectly OK, if they are training someone, old or young, differently based on known physical limitations that is fine too. But a word of advice on that one, do not discuss their physical limitation with anyone else without their permission because that could get you in big trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Would like to thank everyone for their insights so far.

What I actually meant more was: How can a younger man maintain credibility with an older group. They have the benefit of life experience on their side and are perhaps different in their approach to learning new things and I need to earn their respect. For example.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Would you treat women that have had children any differently because they may have a problem when jumping, moving suddenly and doing things like squats?



Perhaps, if they expressed that they had difficulty with those things. Otherwise not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> You know, with Tae Kwon Do, there's a darn good chance he's gone from teaching kids and preteens to teaching folks in their 60s. That's certainly a major change...
> 
> There's been lots of good advice.  The heart of it, to me, is simple:  Teach the student, not the class.  Whether they're 7, 17, 27, or 77... each student has their own mix of strengths and weaknesses as well as limitations.  Keep that in mind, and always make it clear that each student should feel that they can either approach you or adjust to their limitations.



Actually I have gone from kids groups and mixed adult groups of all ages to a specific group training for senior citizens which already existed before I came along. I absolutely agree with teaching the student not the class, but, I wondered whether the mix of sport vs SD vs basic drills might be adjusted to suit the audience for example, and whether the level of discipline might be adjusted too.

Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate you all taking the time to reply.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What I actually meant more was: How can a younger man maintain credibility with an older group.



Just get out there and instruct the way you have been taught.  Show a positive attitude and a knowledge of what you are doing without being pompous or a "know it all".  Show your knowledge through the way you explain things and the encouragement you give the class and it's individual participants.


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## K-man (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What I actually meant more was: How can a younger man maintain credibility with an older group. They have the benefit of life experience on their side and are perhaps different in their approach to learning new things and I need to earn their respect.


I wouldn't be at all concerned about this. If you are showing them things that work, and work for them, you will automatically have their respect. Remember, they are there because they want to learn. They want what you have to offer.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Would like to thank everyone for their insights so far.
> 
> What I actually meant more was: How can a younger man maintain credibility with an older group. They have the benefit of life experience on their side and are perhaps different in their approach to learning new things and I need to earn their respect. For example.
> 
> ...



Been there (when I was 30 and I had some 50 and 60 year old students) an you might be surprised, they already know your there to teach, all you have to do is teach


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## Instructor (Mar 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Been there (when I was 30 and I had some 50 and 60 year old students) an you might be surprised, they already know your there to teach, all you have to do is teach


Yup really is as simple as that.


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Perhaps, if they expressed that they had difficulty with those things. Otherwise not.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


They will absolutely not tell you if they have a problem. It's not any difficulty with techniques they could have but something you may want to be aware of when asking them to do things like jumping jacks in warm ups for example or jumping kicks.


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## jks9199 (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Actually I have gone from kids groups and mixed adult groups of all ages to a specific group training for senior citizens which already existed before I came along. I absolutely agree with teaching the student not the class, but, I wondered whether the mix of sport vs SD vs basic drills might be adjusted to suit the audience for example, and whether the level of discipline might be adjusted too.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate you all taking the time to reply.
> 
> ...


I would make some adjustments.  You might be able to run a little less formally, trusting them to come in line without the same disciplinary measures you might use with kids, for example.  I'd tweak the self defense for the group's needs.  They probably don't need self defense against bullies -- but might need tactics to protect themselves from caregivers and scams targeting the elderly (home improvement, etc.), for example.  But at heart -- I'd stay with teaching in the format you've been taught to run a class.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 28, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> I would make some adjustments.  You might be able to run a little less formally, trusting them to come in line without the same disciplinary measures you might use with kids, for example.  I'd tweak the self defense for the group's needs.  They probably don't need self defense against bullies -- but might need tactics to protect themselves from caregivers and scams targeting the elderly (home improvement, etc.), for example.  But at heart -- I'd stay with teaching in the format you've been taught to run a class.


I am finding they have a propensity for talking rather than training. Line drilling is OK but partner exercises can quickly lose pace as they start to vocalise, comment and analyse together. Not that analysis is bad, but these are basic drills that just need repetition to embed basic motions.

I want to say shut up and get on with it, but in a more respectful way... bearing in mind that that needs to happen in a second language, so communicating the same message via action might work better. 

I've taken to running the drill to command once per partner then immediately and quickly rotating to a new partner, thereby avoiding talk and trying to instil the positive habit of just doing it. Limited success though. 

I find the talk tendency is greater with new motions or more complex ideas, but those things also need to be covered...


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I find the talk tendency is greater with new motions or more complex ideas



That's how a great many of us learn I'm afraid. It may be annoying to some but I find that talking for me is the best way to learn, I can't explain it, perhaps Chris Parker could but many of us find it easy to talk ourselves through new techniques and very difficult to do it on one's own which being silent means. I suppose it's like some people can see a technique being done and instantly do it, whereas some of us need to go through it step by step to do it, I'm the latter.
children and younger people are used to being told what to do so they suffer in silence, being older means learning as we want I'm afraid and if that's talking ourselves through it well that's what we do. It's nothing to do with disrespect or not listening.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> That's how a great many of us learn I'm afraid. It may be annoying to some but I find that talking for me is the best way to learn, I can't explain it, perhaps Chris Parker could but many of us find it easy to talk ourselves through new techniques and very difficult to do it on one's own which being silent means. I suppose it's like some people can see a technique being done and instantly do it, whereas some of us need to go through it step by step to do it, I'm the latter.
> children and younger people are used to being told what to do so they suffer in silence, being older means learning as we want I'm afraid and if that's talking ourselves through it well that's what we do. It's nothing to do with disrespect or not listening.


I agree that people learn in different ways. This is one of the adjustments that might need to be made for an older group I think. I can't just run the training in the same way as I would with a younger group, and I am not sure that's an ageist thing, just the way it is with this group. 

I don't object to talking through a technique or drilling step by step, but where the thing devolves into discussion and no movement, then I see it as a negative - there is an element of learning by doing, and that's what I am trying to communicate. Otherwise they would easily spend a whole session talking about a movement rather than actually drilling it. 

I would rather they drilled it a few hundred times slightly incorrectly than talked about getting it perfect for an hour then drilled it once. The imperfect embedded motion is easier to tweak than an unfamiliar motion they have not drilled in. 

I'm talking about movements such as a front stance with a middle block versus a basic punch, for example.

I'm thinking about splitting the session for a new technique into 1. talk and learn and 2. No talk and just drill / embed


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I would rather they drilled it a few hundred times slightly incorrectly



I'd hate that, doing a technique a lot of times and then being corrected, it would make me feel like an idiot and that I'd been wasting my time. For you it would be easier but it would make your students feel a bit humiliated. Talking helps memory and that's important when you are older. You sound as if you are exasperated with them already. Do you know why they are taking the class?

The thing with an older group is that they won't accept being told what to do as easily as a younger group used to being told at school etc. They may be used to being their own bosses or in high positions in their working life, they certainly have enough life experience not to accept instruction without wanting to know the why's and wherefores. They will also know better than you how _they _learn, they know what works for them. You will know the martial arts techniques but they know how to learn it _for them_. You are going to have to come to a compromise. They won't be an obedient group as the children are, they won't be as able to remember things as teenagers are ( do you know how much information and memories are in our brains  it's hard cramming more in).


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## Gnarlie (Mar 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'd hate that, doing a technique a lot of times and then being corrected, it would make me feel like an idiot and that I'd been wasting my time. For you it would be easier but it would make your students feel a bit humiliated. Talking helps memory and that's important when you are older. You sound as if you are exasperated with them already. Do you know why they are taking the class?



I may have miscommunicated that. What I mean is, I don't expect them as beginners to perform the technique at perfect black belt standard. The core movement does need to be right though, but polish comes later. 

I'm not exasperated by them. I do find them challenging as a group, and that's why I wanted to discuss it here. I am keen to reflect on the training methods I use and perhaps adjust them. 

They have different reasons for taking the class. Some for SD, some for fitness, some for philosophical interest, some to keep the brain in gear, and some to stay limber.


Tez3 said:


> The thing with an older group is that they won't accept being told what to do as easily as a younger group used to being told at school etc. They may be used to being their own bosses or in high positions in their working life, they certainly have enough life experience not to accept instruction without wanting to know the why's and wherefores. They will also know better than you how _they _learn, they know what works for them. You will know the martial arts techniques but they know how to learn it _for them_. You are going to have to come to a compromise. They won't be an obedient group as the children are, they won't be as able to remember things as teenagers are ( do you know how much information and memories are in our brains  it's hard cramming more in).



This is all true. I am asking here to determine what that compromise might look like. I want to be aware, flexible and tolerant, but I also want to challenge them and encourage them, and not coddle / patronise / humiliate / overwhelm / etc them.  I've spent my working life in adult education, but this is different and I want to be sensitive to that. It is a minefield, and just going out there to teach a :normal: class might not be what the situation calls for. 

I hope I am not coming across as an arrogant young whippersnapper here. I'll be more tolerant of their talking through, and cut a bit more slack based on your comments. Thank you Tez3. This thread is definitely one of the most rewarding interactions I have had since joining MT.


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I hope I am not coming across as an arrogant young whippersnapper here



Good lord no, just someone who's lucky enough not to be old yet! 

Teaching women I've found along with my own learning means we do talk more about what we are doing, it may be that we are used to doing more than one thing at a time lol. My mother used to knit, following a pattern while watching television, it's kind of like that. I'm sorry I don't have any of the proper terms for that sort of learning and I'm not explain it too well. My friend and I found when we started karate ( both young and female) if we were on the pads for example if we talked we could hit much better, it's a sort of unconscious thing where if we concentrated hard it wouldn't work whereas if we talked and let it come naturally it did work, does that make sense?
Much later on I learnt to do it instinctively. Of course it could be me that's odd! 
I think your older class may have different expectations of class, sort of like children who are used to school timetables who then go to university where they are expected to manage their learning as opposed to being managed. The older people are seasoned uni students used to managing their learning and would find it difficult to go back to the school type of learning.
Maybe the best thing is to get them together and ask them how they want the class to go? Unorthodox by martial arts standards but could be productive?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 28, 2015)

If the talking is needed to understand a technique then perhaps the teaching methodology is an issue.   There are 3 types of learners (The factors overlap in each individual) Auditory, Visual and Tactile.  When teaching  an instructor should use the first 2 extensively and consecutively as needed but telling the student what to do as well as showing them.   For those students still needing refinement, they tactile need should be addressed by touching / moving / placing them or their limbs in the correct way.


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## jks9199 (Mar 28, 2015)

It might help to simply make them aware of the problem, and maybe come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.  I know my students have figured that when I realize I am diverted into too much discussion with me talking, I've got a couple of phrases that I'll use to wrap up and give them the clue that they're about to start working again.  For example "but I'm yakking too much..."

Two other thoughts.  They are perhaps more naturally going to analyze deeper than a younger student, but that also means that they can understand why they need to simply do things, too.  The other is that they may be finding a way to get some rest; are they at a physical limit?  Or just a boredom limit?


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## TrueJim (Mar 28, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> There are 3 types of learners (The factors overlap in each individual) Auditory, Visual and Tactile...



By the way, this applies to any kind of teaching, they say. (I'm sure Earl already knows this.) Whether you're teaching martial arts, pottery-making, or physics, different people learn differently. What's more, the way a person learns changes through their lives.

Children are generally strong tactile/kinesthetic learners, but as they get older they tend to shift to either auditory or visual.
Girls especially tend to become auditory learners as they age. Boys will go either way. Since women are more-often-than-not auditory learners, and men are about equally mixed, visual learners tend to be men (but not always of course).
These are just general trends though, not hard-and-fast rules. Some people remain kinesthetic learners throughout their lives. Still, when teaching a class of seniors, one shouldn't be too surprised if there aren't many kinesthetic learners in the class.

(I used to teach college Calculus...during my teacher-training then I was introduced to all this. But there are plenty of additional references on the interwebs, for example: Visual Auditory Kinesthetic Learners - FamilyEducation.com )

Personally, I can't memorize forms without knowing the names of all the techniques at each step -- I don't think I was ever a kinesthetic learner, even when I was very young. Going through the movements with me over and over again won't help: I can't memorize it without the names.

Because all my instructors are Korean, they tend to not provide the names when they're teaching us. Sometimes when I lead a small group in our taekwondo class, I'll go through the names of the techniques with my students, and it's funny...you'll hear little gasps of satisfaction from a few of my students as we go through the poomsae: they're so relieved to finally know the names. I can always tell who the auditory learners are when I'm teaching forms...their little gasps of satisfaction.

My young son is already leaning toward being a visual learner.  For him, it helps to study diagrams. That's what lead me to write Poomsae Designer (Poomsae Designer - Taekwondo Wiki ) - I needed diagrams that a child could understand. (There should be an article coming up in the next _Totally Taekwondo_ about Poomsae Designer, by the way - it's free / Open Source if anybody wants to play with it -- it's downloadable from the wiki.)


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 29, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> .................. come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.



How about STFU?


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> How about STFU?




They may be offended because *they* believe they _are_ working hard. That the instructor doesn't is a difference of opinion which they are going to have to sit down and work out. Either that or the students and/or the instructor leaves.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 29, 2015)

Couple things, one about STFU....first that is just plain wrong, about a woman in her 50s, 60s or 70s being told to STFU or for that matter many men in that age group..... yeah, I think you get the picture of a dwindling student base. But I will tell you what my Taiji sifu does... he stops talking and stands there calmly looking at the class.... believe it or not that seems to get us old folks attention pretty well. One of my Xingyi teachers was big on saying things like, “are you here to train or talk, if it is talk go outside, I want to train”. But the class demographic was considerably different, Xingyiquan tends to bring in martial arts crazies, such as myself, who think if it doesn’t hurt it ain’t training, so the classes tend to be very small and focused.

Now I have been thinking about this age of teacher vs. age of class thing, I have been thinking about training with a few people in Boston, all are skilled but I am dealing with 2 issues with this though. One of course is distance, and this applies to all of them, I need to travel a few hours to train with them. But the other is most definitely age based with 2 of them; I am wondering whether or not they can actually train me based on my age and past injuries. I have talked with one of them and he seems to be pretty much saying (indirectly) well I am not sure you can handle it, even though I handle lower stances in Chen style, he does not appear to want to have to worry about it so I have pretty much ruled him out, even though he comes highly recommended with an impressive lineage. The other I have yet to talk to seriously about going, and I will admit that is because of his age, and the fact I have been at this longer than he has been alive, although he does have considerably more time in the style I am looking, and based on the experience with the prior teacher I am wondering if he can or would seriously train me. However, should I decide to pursue this you can be assured that I will most definitely have a discussion with him about my concerns as it applies to my age and history of injuries.

So a long way of saying I guess this can and does work both ways. From a younger teachers perspective you would have to give your older students confidence in you as it applies to their limitations and not make them feel they are being discriminated against based on age. And from the older students perspective you need to let the teacher know what your limitations are and not go into this with the attitude that I can keep up with this whipper snapper (another form of age discrimination by the way) when in fact you know in your bones (sometimes literally) you can’t. But with that said there is a 70 year old Sempai at my daughters Aikido school that just got his black belt last year and that guy literally can keep up with everyone in the room and most of the time leaves the floor with a lot more energy than many of the much younger students. So not all of us old folks are old beat-up tired and infirm (well I am) but many are not.

To quote Dirty Harry "A man's (or woman) GOT to know his _*limitations*_."


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 29, 2015)

.................. come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.



Tez3 said:


> They may be offended because *they* believe they _are_ working hard. That the instructor doesn't is a difference of opinion which they are going to have to sit down and work out. Either that or the students and/or the instructor leaves.



Well, someone asked for a code phrase!

What is a code phrase for lost humor in internet posts?


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## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Reading this post do some people really think that 50/60 is over the hill. Maybe its a bit late to start but I've seen guys armoured up moving like ballet dancers to beat the crap out of 7th dans. Take off the armour and its a 78 year old national grading panel judge.


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> .................. come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not a lost sense of humour but a case of too many people thinking that 'old' means you are useless and senile. It's a big think in the UK at the moment, old people in hospital are called bed blockers because they have to wait for care to be arranged, old people are left to die in cold houses and old people are considered as disposable. The very fact someone has to post asking how to teach/train 'old 'people is enough to make you lose your sense of humour frankly.

The ignored elderly We ve become invisible to society say half of over 65s Daily Mail Online


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 30, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> ....... It's a big think in the UK .....



If you are in the UK, and I am in the USA that could say a lot about humorous intentions being lost in the translation, or as someone said. "England and the USA, two countries seperated by a common language".


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> If you are in the UK, and I am in the USA that could say a lot about humorous intentions being lost in the translation, or as someone said. "England and the USA, two countries seperated by a common language".




To be honest there was nothing to indicate it was meant to be humorous.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 30, 2015)

Just a question further question then in addition to my original post: if there's nothing different to be taken into consideration when training older people, why does the group I've inherited 'senior training' exist, and why do people join it. I am at a loss...


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2015)

First I never said they were not different, but one reason is, we simply don't want to be around all those kids


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Just a question further question then in addition to my original post: if there's nothing different to be taken into consideration when training older people, why does the group I've inherited 'senior training' exist, and why do people join it. I am at a loss...




Perhaps the previous instructor wanted it that way? Or the time suits older people who don't have to get up to go to work/school? Perhaps they didn't have a chance to train in the 'ordinary' classes they were shunted into a 'senior' class? Perhaps they liked the instructor? Perhaps they didn't like the others? perhaps they don't like training with children ( I don't believe that children and adults should train together anyway) Perhaps they were offered a discount so they wouldn't have to be seen to 'slow down' a regular class? Do they get the opportunity to join regular classes or when they inquire and say their age they are automatically put in the senior class.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2015)

Just my two cents.  There are a number of different ways in which people learn.  Lots of different models.  The VAK / VARK model is just one (Visual, Auditory, Read/Write, Kinesthetic). 

I personally think that there are numerous learning styles.  I'm a big believer in Gardner's idea that there are multiple kinds of intelligence, and how we learn has to do with how comfortable we are in each of the various areas.  Sure, visual, auditory and kinesthetic, but also verbal (where people learn by talking through things, as Tez and others have discussed), logical (where people have to puzzle through what they're learning until it's assimilated into some mental model or a formula).  There area also people who learn best in groups and those who learn best on their own (social or solo learners).   How we learn is a function of our personality, generational conditioning and aptitude. 

The best training is the training that accommodates all of these.   

I just think that the age thing is one small part of the entire package.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps the previous instructor wanted it that way? Or the time suits older people who don't have to get up to go to work/school? Perhaps they didn't have a chance to train in the 'ordinary' classes they were shunted into a 'senior' class? Perhaps they liked the instructor? Perhaps they didn't like the others? perhaps they don't like training with children ( I don't believe that children and adults should train together anyway) Perhaps they were offered a discount so they wouldn't have to be seen to 'slow down' a regular class? Do they get the opportunity to join regular classes or when they inquire and say their age they are automatically put in the senior class.


They have the option to join the other classes.

The main reasons for asking the question from my perspective were that there are people in the group who have been training on and off since the 60's - not black belts, but sure enough a wealth of experience and they certainly remember some training practices that I find interesting. The fact that they started before I was born, that's one thing. 

The other thing is that I would have asked a similar question about any split group that was new to me, for example I sometimes train a group of kids from a local international school, where there are definitely language and cultural consideration to think about. I have asked questions about that elsewhere online. 

I didn't ask the age question because they are older, but because they are split, and that split a) might exist through their choice, I don't know the history and b) might be an opportunity, but I wasn't sure how to make the most of it with them.

If best for them is merge them with the other groups, then so be it, but I do get the feeling they wouldn't enjoy the same things as a group of teenagers...I feel they have different tastes.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 31, 2015)

Steve said:


> Just my two cents.  There are a number of different ways in which people learn.  Lots of different models.  The VAK / VARK model is just one (Visual, Auditory, Read/Write, Kinesthetic).
> 
> I personally think that there are numerous learning styles.  I'm a big believer in Gardner's idea that there are multiple kinds of intelligence, and how we learn has to do with how comfortable we are in each of the various areas.  Sure, visual, auditory and kinesthetic, but also verbal (where people learn by talking through things, as Tez and others have discussed), logical (where people have to puzzle through what they're learning until it's assimilated into some mental model or a formula).  There area also people who learn best in groups and those who learn best on their own (social or solo learners).   How we learn is a function of our personality, generational conditioning and aptitude.
> 
> ...


One thing that changes with age and experience is the relative amount of knowledge that one has to assimilate new knowledge and experience into. 

It's the reason why the years seem to get faster as you get older, which seems to be already happening for me. [emoji53] 

It's interesting to note that this group all respond more positively to explanation of reasoning, and demonstration if a complete movement. As opposed to breaking movement into sub movement.


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> One thing that changes with age and experience is the relative amount of knowledge that one has to assimilate new knowledge and experience into.
> 
> It's the reason why the years seem to get faster as you get older, which seems to be already happening for me. [emoji53]
> 
> It's interesting to note that this group all respond more positively to explanation of reasoning, and demonstration if a complete movement. As opposed to breaking movement into sub movement.


This is really true, but I personally believe that it's more a function of experience than of age (although I agree with you completely that the two are a common pair. )  As we all learn, we create structures and models to organize and assimilate all of the information we are learning.  As we see things that are familiar, we can easily associate them within our model.  When things are new, we struggle more because we lack a frame of reference with which to associate the new information.

When you train a beginner, they have no model... no frame of reference. So, you have to provide the teaching point AND some kind of context for them so that they having some place to attach the teaching point.  Otherwise, the lesson is out of context.  However, providing too much context for someone who is experienced can actually distract them and impede their learning.  

It's like when you train a rank beginner vs a black belt.  The beginner needs to learn the model... whether it's simple drills in foundational techniques, kata, or whatever else.  There has to be a model that is taught first.  Once the model is learned, you begin to hang details on it.  The details fill out the model like leaves on a tree.  

This is also why learning a similar style to one you already know can be challenging at first.  Mentally, we have to accommodate information that conflicts with our well developed mental model.   Where you have details that are slightly different, the adjustments can be pretty easy.  But where styles conflict on a foundational level, it can be harder for you to learn it than if you were a rank beginner.  For example, the difference between how one style of karate performs a kata to another vs the difference between how okinawan karate stands vs how a WC/WT practitioner stands.  

I hope this makes sense.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 31, 2015)

Steve said:


> This is really true, but I personally believe that it's more a function of experience than of age (although I agree with you completely that the two are a common pair. )  As we all learn, we create structures and models to organize and assimilate all of the information we are learning.  As we see things that are familiar, we can easily associate them within our model.  When things are new, we struggle more because we lack a frame of reference with which to associate the new information.
> 
> When you train a beginner, they have no model... no frame of reference. So, you have to provide the teaching point AND some kind of context for them so that they having some place to attach the teaching point.  Otherwise, the lesson is out of context.  However, providing too much context for someone who is experienced can actually distract them and impede their learning.
> 
> ...


It absolutely does, and it impacts the way I should deliver information to such a group. They are not life beginners, but some of them are beginners in Taekwondo. They have a framework in many cases, from other sports of even from personal experience of fighting in the military.

A daunting group, really. Hence my questions.


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## Tez3 (Mar 31, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> It absolutely does, and it impacts the way I should deliver information to such a group. They are not life beginners, but some of them are beginners in Taekwondo. They have a framework in many cases, from other sports of even from personal experience of fighting in the military.
> 
> A daunting group, really. Hence my questions.




I'm sure they will be kind to you


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## TrueJim (Mar 31, 2015)

This is slightly off-topic...

Way back in the day, when I was in grad school, I would get stuck teaching evening Calculus classes to all the middle-aged men who were pursuing new degrees to re-energize their careers, and all the middle-aged women whose children had gone off to college who now wanted to start new careers (these were considered the bottom-of-the-barrel teaching assignments, fit only for lowly grad students). Talk about being kind to you! These were the most rewarding students I ever had! 

These students were all generally terrified that I was going to turn out to be some sort of monster teacher: piling on ginormous amounts of homework, going through the material so quickly that they would never be able to keep up, and generally giving them a hard time for the fact that high school algebra was a long-forgotten memory. Of course, that's not how I taught. I did my best to make it fun for them, low stress, low pressure. I knew they had day-jobs, and were dragging their sorry butts into class, weary after too-long days. They were always so freaking _appreciative_ that I wasn't busting their butts, and at the same time they learned a lot of math. 

The moral of the story, at least for me: older students are often the best.


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## Hyoho (Mar 31, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> One thing that changes with age and experience is the relative amount of knowledge that one has to assimilate new knowledge and experience into.
> 
> It's the reason why the years seem to get faster as you get older, which seems to be already happening for me. [emoji53]
> 
> It's interesting to note that this group all respond more positively to explanation of reasoning, and demonstration if a complete movement. As opposed to breaking movement into sub movement.


Not so much speed as knowing 'when' to move makes those less experienced appear to be slow motion. I also worked in education. It does help as many 'Sensei' out there are excellent practitioners buy have no teaching qualifications.

 I clearly remember getting thrown into a ten practices a week routine in my early twenties and found and saw around me kids already with 12 years experience and thought OMG I am already too old to catch up. But I found out its the maturity that gets you there. You can push a young student to phenomenal levels but the thought process wont change until he get older. There really is something to be said for getting old as we are far more economizing in both thought and actions.


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## Buka (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm picturing myself as one of the students.....

I'd like more hand techniques than kicking techniques. 
I'd like more techniques to thwart young kickers.
I'd like some amount of exercise, geared to an older person's needs, included in the class. Core work, flexibility exercises for the back and shoulders, strength work for keeping knees healthy.


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## Balrog (Apr 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We aren't all old codgers falling apart you know!


Speak for yourself!! 

Since the class is older folks, I don't think you'll need to worry about them trying to do what the young whippersnappers do.  Simply push them to the best of their individual abilities.


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## Instructor (Apr 4, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm picturing myself as one of the students.....
> 
> I'd like more hand techniques than kicking techniques.
> I'd like more techniques to thwart young kickers.
> I'd like some amount of exercise, geared to an older person's needs, included in the class. Core work, flexibility exercises for the back and shoulders, strength work for keeping knees healthy.


Sounds like the class I teach.


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## drop bear (Apr 5, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm picturing myself as one of the students.....
> 
> I'd like more hand techniques than kicking techniques.
> I'd like more techniques to thwart young kickers.
> I'd like some amount of exercise, geared to an older person's needs, included in the class. Core work, flexibility exercises for the back and shoulders, strength work for keeping knees healthy.



We have 1 class. And do half an hour of conditioning a day designed to put fighters in a ring. But it is mostly an individual pursuit.

It is mostly core flexibility and so on.

It does take a few years for your body to condition to the unfamiliar moments of martial arts. So you have to manage the "I cant do it" factor with what may be physically detrimental.


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## drop bear (Apr 5, 2015)

Interestingly we are more students now that we are expecting them to train to our standard rather than us train to theirs.

I think this is especially relevant to older people who just get to this point where the say they are just going to do what it takes and want to be in an environment where they are going to get that.

And the reason is people are getting quick results. 

I think this is reflected in the cross fit mentality. (although they tend to injure people a bit)


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 9, 2015)

My training is Kung Fu and we always ask people about joint injuries, back injuries, or any other type of injury that we need to be aware of.   We ask this so that we can adjust the lessons or forms so that the student doesn't injure himself (herself).  We encourage students to train within their abilities and capabilities.  If you can't kick high then don't kick high.  Kung Fu uses low kicks so we can substitute a low kick for a high kick.

Speaking as a person in my 40's, I don't heal as fast as I used to. So I rather stay injury free for a as long as possible.  Nothing is as discouraging loving martial arts and not being able to practice because of an injury.


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## Master Dan (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Hi
> 
> I've recently inherited a Taekwondo class that is mostly populated with people in the age range 60 to 70. Does anyone have any advice to offer? It's certainly a different challenge from my usual training scenario!


I have 20 years plus in specific training for that age group, I consider myself one of the best at is it not from me but all the talented people and health care professionals that passed on their knowledge along the way over the last 40 years. I have seen some of the most ridiculous people walk in to teach a class with older participants more interested in how they look and their personal ego. This causes people injury and undue stress. The goal of all training is to build the person up and initial training soreness should leave after two weeks. First anyone leading a class who is not familiar with each and every student before class should start with a warning on how to move and prevent injury. Low impact Isometric movements build inner core and muscle group strength as well as balance to prevent falls. The leading cause of death in ages over 50 is complications related to a fall. I had one women come in said oh I lift weights I am in good shape and I counseled her to slow down and she destroyed her knee running and twisting? Training after 40 should be for health, self defense and mental and emotional well being. Every person should leave feeling better after class than before. This means not feeling well or depressed before class should go away by end of class. You can PM me and I can give you a good outline of how to structure the class for them.


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2015)

Master Dan said:


> ...You can PM me and I can give you a good outline of how to structure the class for them.



Actually, if you have a good outline for this, I'd like to put it on the taekwondo wiki.


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