# Kukkiwon pending



## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

I was just reading a quote from one person that tested in Vegas and he is trying to rally people to sue the KKW. Here is what jhe sayd and what do you all think about it?

*Hello All:
This message is for all those martial artist that did the special Kukkiwon test in Vegas.
I am planning a law suit against Kukkiwon, due to the fact that they took the test money and refuse to answer question regarding the test.
I am encouraging any one that was affected by them to please contact me so we can get some justice from this.*


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## dortiz (May 24, 2009)

Hi Terry,
where was this posted?

Dave O.


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## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

dortiz said:


> Hi Terry,
> where was this posted?
> 
> Dave O.


 
From TKD.net lools like he means it and his handle is cswab1467, he is looking for people to join in but not alot of info yet as it becomes available I will post.


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## Miles (May 24, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> *Hello All:
> This message is for all those martial artist that did the special Kukkiwon test in Vegas.
> I am planning a law suit against Kukkiwon, due to the fact that they took the test money and refuse to answer question regarding the test.
> I am encouraging any one that was affected by them to please contact me so we can get some justice from this.*



I think this is fascinating, but idiotic.

Is he going to sue in Vegas, his home state, in Korea?

When did refusing to answer questions regarding a test become a legal matter?  Maybe the alleged silence of the Kukkiwon is the answer?

I am guessing this person, if he indeed tested, may not have passed the test.  If he didn't pass, he should look at why he didn't pass rather than threatening a lawsuit.  Did he think he automatically passed when he paid his check?  (That might be a breach of contract but that's hardly a test.)

Was the check payable to the Kukkiwon or to USAT?  I thought the USAT put on the test, so the Kukkiwon was just the test administrator-if that's the case, there's no "privity of contract" between the examiner and the examinee. 

But, on the other hand, lawyers need to eat too.   Sometimes the hardest part of a lawyer's job is to tell the client he has no case.


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## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

Miles said:


> I think this is fascinating, but idiotic.
> 
> Is he going to sue in Vegas, his home state, in Korea?
> 
> ...


 

I know Miles but iy looks like he is serious about it.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 24, 2009)

Miles said:


> If he didn't pass, he should look at why he didn't pass rather than threatening a lawsuit.



Maybe that was his question!


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## Twin Fist (May 24, 2009)

just another reason i am living KKW free and loving it


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## NPTKD (May 24, 2009)

twin fist you don't do kukkiwon forms do you?


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## Twin Fist (May 24, 2009)

god no.

well, there is one that we do that the KKW does, Koryo, but in general? NOPE

ITF forms all the way baby


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## NPTKD (May 24, 2009)

That explains why you bash the kuukiwon so much. I don't do ITF forms, but I respect the style! I'm a big fan of the kukkiwon. I like the continuing education that they provide.


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

it has nothing to do with that.

why I hate the KKW and wish they would die in a fire:
1-the constant rewritting of history
2-it isnt needed
3-it costs money
4-it promotes or makes it easy for instructors to rob students
5-the "we are the authority" attitude

there are things I like about the KKW:
a set list of requirements for rank
the database of certs, make it easy to be a smart shopper

trust me, most of myhate and ire is reserved for the WTF, not the kkw.


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## Jphtkd (May 25, 2009)

Has anyone actually received their certificate yet?


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> Has anyone actually received their certificate yet?


 
I am not sure.


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> it has nothing to do with that.
> 
> why I hate the KKW and wish they would die in a fire:
> 1-the constant rewritting of history
> ...


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

I know plenty of overweight people that could bust you (or anyone else) up, pretty quick. So thats sort of a silly thing to say.

Looking at history, "making up his own system and forms." is EXACTLY what the KKW did. That in and of itself isnt a bad thing. Ep Parker did it. Emerado did it. Chow did it. 

But the KKW went one step further

They then proceeded to make up HISTORY as well. The Entire KKW organization is build on and based on lies. They made up a history that wasnt true, thats a lie.

and, so sorry if this offends, but anyone who pays them money ENDORSES those lies.

And listen up, I aint got no problem. I dont depend on some korean business to tell me that i know what i know. I dont need to belong to anything to know what i am and what I know. You want to be bigger than your own school? then make some BB's and have them open schools. POOF mission accomplished.

oh, and BTW- i dont give a crap what Choi did as I am not ITF either.  Choi invented sine wave, the biggest piece of garbage I have ever seen.


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

Wow!!!! you are so angry! Do you need a hug.


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

I still love you......


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## joblo (May 25, 2009)

There's an old angry, tuff guy on every forum. TF is probably a nice guy in person.


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

i aint angry, Now when someone tells me I got a problem, when I am not the one feeding money to korea, i might get a bit annoyed.


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i aint angry, Now when someone tells me I got a problem, when I am not the one feeding money to korea, i might get a bit annoyed.


  I just wondering ( not being disrespectful) but when your students test, who gives them their rank? I don't mean gup, I mean dans.


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

I do.

Whats your point?


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## goingd (May 25, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I do.
> 
> Whats your point?



Who gave you your rank? Not criticizing, only curious.
And one quick point, I would think it would be easier to rip students off without KKW. It would give instructors a lot more leeway and room to lie and bs.


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## dortiz (May 25, 2009)

Terry, 
No certs yet. I got the TKD email today. You must get the individual postings sooner. Interesting, the reason I asked is there are clearly different levels of folks on various forums. That group is one that comprises pretty serious folks so it does make it a bit more interesting.

Dave O.


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I do.
> 
> Whats your point?


 

Who are you...and do you tell your students what a school cert really means? I went down that road along time ago with a korean grandmaster. Then when i opened my school only to find out later that the dan was only a school dan. i know that there are alot of people who start in the martial arts who really don't know what they are getting them selves into. Let me ask you a question: what if one of your students whats more.... Like their own school, who gives rank for his students. And what if one of you students moves to a new town... Does your rank carry over or do they have to start over again?

I mean if your telling them (not only if they ask,because most don't know any better) that what they are getting is only good in your school?


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2009)

This thread is not about personal certificate and such it is about a pending lawsuite against the KKW. Please stay on topic and if need be start anothe rthread about your and everybody ekse feeling about the KKW and certificates.


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## jks9199 (May 25, 2009)

Great point, Terry...

What is the basis of the guy's lawsuit?  He tested, and wasn't guaranteed to be promoted.  Where was the breach of contract or other tort?


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Great point, Terry...
> 
> What is the basis of the guy's lawsuit? He tested, and wasn't guaranteed to be promoted. Where was the breach of contract or other tort?


 
He paid to skip Dan from a second to a 6th like that was going to happen.


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

2nd to 6th?

and people were giving me a hard time about going from 2nd to 4th??


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

sorry... back on point, where are you hearing this form, I'd like to read it also.


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

twin fist said:


> 2nd to 6th?
> 
> And people were giving me a hard time about going from 2nd to 4th??


 

what!!!!!!!


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

yeah i went from 2nd to 4th

you got a problem with it?


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## NPTKD (May 25, 2009)

no, just surprised.... when did you do it...Vages? Don't be sooo touchy


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> sorry... back on point, where are you hearing this form, I'd like to read it also.


 
It comes from TKD.net and I know somebody that is able to talk about the gentlemen with the rally cry for help.


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## Twin Fist (May 25, 2009)

so, he paid to go from 2nd to 6th, and he is suing over it?

here is the question, was  apass guaranteed? or , does he have to pay again if he has to re-test?


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## taekwondodo (May 25, 2009)

I was at the testing in Vegas, and the night before Master Kang did implored people who felt like they aren't confident enough to test, not to test.  He also mentioned that 50% will failed.  I guess this gentleman is in the other 1/2 that failed.

I think going from 2nd to 6th is a bit stretched.  I mean the requirements of doing forms from 2nd dan to 6th dan that is alot to learn IF a person wasn't prepared a head of time.

If I was going to test from 2nd to 6th, I have to know, Taeguk 8 up to Jitae poomsae.  That is alot to learn in 1 weekend IF I don't know these poomsae ahead of time.  I wouldn't have pass if I didn't do well in my poomsae segment.


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## goingd (May 26, 2009)

My understanding was that if anyone did not pass they would get the majority of their money back. He is sobbing because he didn't get to buy a pretty new black belt with shiny gold to match his new certificate. I don't honestly think it will go too far at all.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

I was there also... but my understanding and the rules were that you could only skip up to three ranks..( 1st- 4th,4th - 7th etc..) So i really dont understand how this happened. The other thing was I heard people saying the same thing about getting thier money back if they didn't pass, that isn't what the paper work said. It said that if your paper work wasn't accepted then your money would be returned. Not if you failed the text.

from usta question and answer sheet emailed to me before the test:
15. If my application for promotion is denied, will I receive a refund of my funds?​*Yes, you will receive a full refund of your fees, including all testing and seminar fees (if you applied).

*


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## Carol (May 26, 2009)

Hmm...are you sure that applies only to paperwork?  Or does it apply to the whole application process, including the test?

Just asking out of curiosity...I am not a TKD student but I am a college student and I have found that an "application" can mean a few different things in academia.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

*2009 Kukkiwon Special Test​Test Guidelines and Frequently Asked Questions​*1. Where is the location of the test?​*The test will be held at the Tropicana Resort and Casino in Las Vegas, Nevada.​*2. When will the test and Poomse Seminar be held?​*The test and mandatory seminar (4​​​​​​​​​th Dan and above) will be held on February 13 &14 during the
U.S. Open. The test will be held at the end of the day on the Saturday the 14th or in the morning
of Sunday the 15th.​
*3. When is the application deadline?​*All applications must be received by January 7, 2009.​*4. When will I know if my application has been approved or not approved?​*All applicants will be notified of their approval/not approval as they are continually processed. All
applicants will be notified no later than January 17​​​​​​​​​th. We urge you to apply as soon as possible in
order to have more time to prepare for this historic test.​
*5. Can I attend the seminar even though my application for promotion is under fourth Dan?​*Absolutely, you are encouraged to take advantage of this rare opportunity. The seminar will be
conducted by the highest level instructors from Kukkiwon. The fee for this 2 day, 12​​​​​​​​​&#8208;16 hour
seminar is only $45 because you are applying for this special Kukkiwon test. Please attach the
Seminar Application Form along with your testing application.​
*6. I am not testing, but wish to take the Poomse seminar, is this allowed?​*Yes, everyone is permitted to take the Poomsae seminar with $90.00 payment. You must be a
registered USAT member in order to attend the seminar that is being taught by the best
instructors from Kukkiwon. You must fill out and mail in the Seminar Application Form along with
your payment.​*7. What are testing requirements?​*1​​​​​​​​​st Dan&#8208;3rd Dan Applicants do not have to take a physical test and are not required to be in
attendance at the testing. However, these applicants are strongly encouraged to attend and
compete at the U.S. open and attend the poomse seminar, which will be taught by the best
instructors from Kukkiwon.
Physical Test&#8208; Only 4th Dan & Higher
4th Dan & Higher Test participants must perform their rank form (see below chart) and must
perform one form from a previous rank to be chosen at the discretion of the testing board.
Participants will also perform 1 minute of controlled sparring (purpose of sparring will be to show
participants technique and movement). Sparring partners will be paired according to size, age and
rank. Breaking will be optional with guidelines set at test.
Those testing for 6th Dan and above must submit a thesis with their application. The thesis must be at
least 10 pages long (12 pt. font or lower and no more than double spaced). Subject of the thesis is
their experience and philosophy of Taekwondo; such as Taekwondo and My Life.​
*8. Can I apply 8​​​​&#8208;9th Dan application at this time?​
*Yes, However 8​​​​​​​​​&#8208;9th Dan will not test during this special Kukkiwon test. After we receive 8&#8208;9th Dan
application forms, we will set up separate time to test for the 8&#8208;9th Dan. USAT/Kukkiwon will inform
you time and location in USA.​
*9. Is there a format for those with medical injuries? (ex. back injury)​*This will be judged on a case by case basis by the test examiners at the time of testing.​Specified subjects of practical techniques applied to the Poom or Dan promotion tests.​Poom/Dan Appointed (1 each) Compulsory​*1​​​​st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1-7 Jang Taegeuk 8
2nd Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1-8 Jang Koryo
3rd Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1-8 Jang, Koryo Keumgang
4th Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1-8 Jang, Koryo, Keumgang Taebaek
5th Dan Taegeuk 1-8 Jang, Koyo, Keumgang, Taebaek Pyongwon
6th Dan Taebaek, Pyongwon, Sipjin Jitae
7th Dan Pyongwon, Sipjin, Jitae Cheonkwon
8th Dan Sipjin , Jitae, Cheonkwon Hansoo
9th Dan Jitae, Cheonkwon , Hansoo Illyo
10th Dan Decided by the Judgment of Technical Council​
10. What are the Kukkiwon Dan testing fees? ​*You need to pay maximum of 3 highest rank test fee that you are applying for.
Ex. If you are a 1​​​​​​​​​st Dan and wish to test for 2nd Dan through 6th Dan at the test, you would pay
$150 (4th Dan Fee) + $300 (5th Dan Fee) + $350 (6th Dan Fee) = $800 Total Test Fee.
Test Fees
​
*11. Where do we send our application to?​*You may send application to USAT Taekwondo: 1 Olympic Plaza, 104C Colorado Springs, Colorado
80909 or send application to USAT Martial Arts Commission 1349 Brice Road, Reynoldsburg, OH 43068.
All reviewed applications will be forward to USA Taekwondo who will forward them to the Kukkiwon.​*12. Do we send the money along with our application?​*Yes, testing fees are due at time of application.
Those testing for 4​​​​​​​​​th Dan and above will be required to take the 2 day Poomse seminar which will cost
$45. This fee must also be included at the time of application.​
*13. What form of payment is acceptable? (ex. check, money order, credit card etc..)​*Money Order, Cashiers Check, Credit Card  No personal or company checks.​*14. Who do we make payment out to?​*Payment must be made out to USAT.​*15. If my application for promotion is denied, will I receive a refund of my funds?​*Yes, you will receive a full refund of your fees, including all testing and seminar fees (if you applied).​*16. If I am accepted to test, but for any reason (medical, family etc.) cannot attend the test, will I
receive a refund of my funds?​*Your payment will be refunded, minus a nominal administrative processing fee.​*17. What is an acceptable format for my resume?​*Please reference the sample Martial Arts Activity/History sheet located in the packet.​*18. What is an acceptable format for my application stating my reasons for wanting special testing?​*Please use Kukkiwon Special Dan Recommendation form  part of Package​*19. Do I need a thesis?​*Those testing for 6​​​​​​​​​th Dan and above must submit a thesis with their application. The thesis must be at
least 10 pages long (12 pt. font or lower and no more than double spaced). Subject of the thesis is
their experience and philosophy of Taekwondo; such as Taekwondo and My Life.​
*20. Do I need to currently have a Master or Instructor to test?​*No. However, please state reason on your form for not having a signature for instructor. If the
reason is acceptable the martial arts commission review board will authorize you to test.​*21. Who is a candidate for Skip Dan Test?​*Skip Dan Test: Those who hold a Kukkiwon Dan rank, but who missed the opportunity (on more than
one occasion) to test for subsequent Kukkiwon Dan ranks and would like to bring their Kukkiwon Dan
current and will need to skip one or more Dan ranks to do so.​*22. Who is a candidate for Special Kukkiwon Testing?​*Kukkiwon Rank Recognition Test: Those who have never received a Kukkiwon Dan rank but who have
received a Dan rank from a credible taekwondo organization or credible Master/Grandmaster
Instructor and are seeking Kukkiwon recognition of the rank they have achieved.​*23. Who is a candidate for time reduction test?​*Those who wish to test for a higher rank, but whose age or time in the current rank do not meet
Kukkiwon standards, may test if their overall training and experience otherwise satisfies Kukkiwon
requirements.​*24. I want to skip from x dan to y dan. Is this ok?​*You are eligible to apply for rank, based upon your years training and the age requirement. Below is a
chart indicating these requirements.​*25. I have already taken advantage of a Skip Dan testing. Am I able to also take advantage of this
skip dan test?​*This may be permitted if your total history of training meets the Kukkiwon standard. A testing
application and detailed martial arts resume should be sent so that Kukkiwon can make this
determination with USATs recommendation.​*26. Can I do a skip dan and time reduction both?​*If your training history and time & age requirements as set by Kukkiwon are met, then it is allowed. If
you are not sure if you meet Kukkiwon requirements, please send your application and a detailed
resume and your appropriate rank will be determined. Please see chart below for further guidance.​*27. If I am requesting to be promoted two ranks above my current rank and am denied, can I still
test for one rank above my current rank?​*Yes you can, you are allowed to apply for the testing according to your qualification for testing as
determined by the Kukkiwon. Please see chart below for further guidance.​Poom/Dan
Minimum time
required for
promotion
Age limits for promotion
start from Dan start from Poom​*1st Poom N/A N/A less than 15 years old
1st to 2nd Poom 1 year N/A less than 15 years old
2nd to 3rd Poom 2 years N/A less than 15 years old
3​​​​rd to 4th Poom 3 years N/A less than 18 years old
1st Dan N/A 15 years and above N/A
1st to 2nd Dan 1 year 16 years and above 15 years and above
2nd to 3rd Dan 2 years 18 years and above 15 years and above
3rd to 4th Dan 3 years 21 years and above 18 years and above
4th to 5th Dan 4 years 25 years and above 22 years and above
5th to 6th Dan 5 years 30 years and above 30 years and above
6th to 7th Dan 6 years 36 years and above 36 years and above
7th to 8th Dan 8 years 44 years and above 44 years and above
8th to 9th Dan 9 years 53 years and above 53 years and above
9th to 10th Dan N/A 60 years and above 60 years and above​
28. I have Kukkiwon Dan, but do not know my Kukkiwon Dan number. Can you find out what it is
for me?​*Please visit the following website to find out: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/pop.jsp​*29. Will there be any make up dates?​*There are no other tests of this historic nature scheduled.​*30. Ill be competing or coaching or refereeing at the U.S. open and testing for 4​​​​th Dan or Higher, can
I be excused from some or all of the Poomse Seminar to in order to compete/coach/referee?​
*Yes, it is acceptable, with consensus of the Kukkiwon Testing Board, to miss a few hours of the
seminar. Please note your plans to compete/referee/coach on your application and you will be
notified whether you will be excused or not.​*31. Are spectators or family members allowed at the Poomse Seminar and at the Testing?​*Spectators will be allowed during the testing but not during the Poomse Seminar​*32. Should I bring my sparring gear?​*Even though sparring will be controlled, participants are required to bring sparring gear?​*33. What are the uniform requirements?​*An official Dobok (white with black v&#8208;neck) is required.
*


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Hmm...are you sure that applies only to paperwork? Or does it apply to the whole application process, including the test?
> 
> Just asking out of curiosity...I am not a TKD student but I am a college student and I have found that an "application" can mean a few different things in academia.


 

I think #4 answers that question


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> It comes from TKD.net and I know somebody that is able to talk about the gentlemen with the rally cry for help.


 

I,m having a hard time finding it... A webstore comes up... could you link it for me?  thanks....


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## dortiz (May 26, 2009)

http://lists.bluewaves.org/mailman/listinfo/taekwondo-net

Dave O.


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## dancingalone (May 26, 2009)

The lawsuit seems rather lame to me, but honestly you're open to this kind of garbage when you become a worldwide business enterprise as the KKW is.  I said in a prior post months ago that I prefer my martial arts to be familial and intimate.  I still see no reason to change my mind...


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> The lawsuit seems rather lame to me, but honestly you're open to this kind of garbage when you become a worldwide business enterprise as the KKW is. I said in a prior post months ago that I prefer my martial arts to be familial and intimate. I still see no reason to change my mind...


Pretty much my opinion. 

I will refrain from making blanket statements about people who seek a skip dan; I am not in their shoes.  But aside from needing to be 4th dan or higher to either certify black belts or be a certified instructor, who cares?  

Skipping from second to fourth, fifth to seventh, first to third, or whatever changes nothing of your skill, technique or teaching ability.  This guy, whoever he is, is 

*1.* still of the same quality he was before the test.  
*2.* His wallet, on the other hand is not.  

If they hand him a shiny new belt and cert, neither of those two facts change.  If he was hoping to be able to now sign off on KKW certs and go to the instructors course and become a KKW certified instructor, a 4th dan or higher rank will enable him to do that.  But as I said, it still does not change who he is or the quality of his skill as a practitioner or teacher (if he is a teacher).

Also, to bring the discussion between TF and NPTKD into this, his rank may be KKW recognized, but is still only important within his own school and to a lesser extent, within KKW TKD.

A blackbelt of any degree from another KKW school may know the essential KKW material up to their rank or may know Palgwe forms, grapples, and some Muay Thai, may or may not compete, and may or may not have any teaching skill.  He or she may simply be of their rank because they kept showing up and paying fees, but have no ability on the mat.  I have seen some pretty sorry looking guys who claim to be fourth dan.  I have also seen some pretty amazing guys who just earned their first dan.  

In the end, what matters most is not the cert from the KKW but the training you have received from your school.  In that regard, rank from your instructor and school is much more telling.  Did you learn from a lousy fourth dan who collects your fees and passes you no matter how bad you are or did you learn from a very good but unaffiliated blackbelt who would not pass you until you got it right and took the time to do all of the detail work to make you a fine practitioner?

Orgs are a nice way to have an external certification, and the KKW is a good org for such.  But to ask to go from second to sixth dan at a special test and then sue because they will not answer a question is just silly.  Perhaps he should have tested at the appropriate times and taken his lumps like the rest of us.  

Personally, I would love to be handed a nice shiney 6th dan cert.  I did start out in karate and taekwondo when I was a kid, so why not?  Well, I took breaks in training and most importantly, I did not test.  That is not the KKW's fault.  And that piece of paper will not make me one bit better than I currently am.  I have people ask if I am a higher rank than I currently am.  I tell them no.  That is preferrable to being fourth dan and people wondering who the heck passed me.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> He paid to skip Dan from a second to a 6th like that was going to happen.


Which makes me wonder why USAT even allowed this application to go through.  It was my understanding they were the ones who were screening all applicants.  This should have been rejected right away.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Who are you....


He is their instructor and is in the best possible position to know if the student has both the skill and the maturity to be promoted.

Personally, I think that a better question is 'who is the KKW? What contact have they had with the student? Did the student earn his or her first dan at the Kukkiwon in Korea? What do they know of TF's students? Or yours for that matter? Only what you tell them by signing that paper. I have seen way too many eighteen year olds with sloppy technique and multiple stripes on their belt for me to believe that the Kukkiwon is particularly meticulous or that most KKW instructors are particularly meticulous in their dan gradings.



NPTKD said:


> ...and do you tell your students what a school cert really means? I went down that road along time ago with a korean grandmaster. Then when i opened my school only to find out later that the dan was only a school dan. i know that there are alot of people who start in the martial arts who really don't know what they are getting them selves into.


You and many others. But when you opened your own school, how did having a dojo dan affect you? Did you believe that you were certified by an organization? Certainly, one can open a school without a big org. TF has, you apparently did as well, albeit not intentionally. How did not having a big org affect your school? Not picking at you; just curious. 



NPTKD said:


> Let me ask you a question: what if one of your students whats more.... Like their own school, who gives rank for his students.


The student, who is now the school owner, would promote his or her students.  Same as any other independent.  Or they could defer to TF, assuming that he even wants that level of involvement in a student's school.  Or they could join an org if they so desired.  



NPTKD said:


> And what if one of you students moves to a new town... Does your rank carry over or do they have to start over again?


Same as with a KKW dan if you go to a non KKW school: they would either evaluate the student and rank them accordingly, let them wear their belt and not promote them until they have learned the material up to their rank and for the next rank, or make them wear a white belt and start fresh. 

Portable rank is nice, but portable skills are better. And it is the latter that TF is most interested in. 



NPTKD said:


> I mean if your telling them (not only if they ask,because most don't know any better) that what they are getting is only good in your school?


I would bet money that he gives them a speach about the evils of big orgs.

Please understand that I am not racking on the Kukkiwon. I do feel that they provide a worthwhile service and in a commercial setting, being able to tell a student that their rank is recognized outside of your school is a good selling point. But it is certainly not a requirement for a financially successful school. Most likely, a business degree is more helpful in that area. 

Daniel


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Okay here we go...
First, I opened by school had no problems with the school dan.. Until I tried to enter my students into some local tournaments. Not only did we do different forms that were not KKW but we (I) got a lot of crap from other instructors about the whole KKw thing. My school has always done well and I really didn't need to change anything, but I felt that if I were to do the same thing that my master did to me to one of my students... well it just wouldn't be right! So I took the time to go to seminars, take private classes from some of my peers and change the whole school over to KKW. Now on my side of it I had to reapply for  my fifth under AAU to get my USAT and retest in Vegas to get my KKW. I wasn't cheap to get something that I already had. But I feel that it was worth it. As far as telling my students they understand the differenace between a school dan and KKW. As a school owner I could have just made the dan myself and kept the money. But even with your  opion of  the KKW I bet if you gave your student an educated chioce ( for the same price) they would take the KKW.  
But after all I have done... Seeing the quailty of some of the higher dan testers in vegas... I should have never doubted myself and my ability. Just like twin fist.. I don't need the KKW or any onter ORG. to tell me I'm good...But when your a teacher isn't not all about you.


Tim


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

But it is certainly not a requirement for a financially successful school. Most likely, a business degree is more helpful in that area. 



 This isn't about money!


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

Firstly, I appreciate you responding.


NPTKD said:


> Okay here we go...
> First, I opened by school had no problems with the school dan.. Until I tried to enter my students into some local tournaments. Not only did we do different forms that were not KKW but we (I) got a lot of crap from other instructors about the whole KKw thing.


Organizations tend to benefit the competative athlete the most.  They are definitely good at keeping you in the loop and they do provide an established and recognized curriculum.



NPTKD said:


> My school has always done well and I really didn't need to change anything, but I felt that if I were to do the same thing that my master did to me to one of my students... well it just wouldn't be right!


Still not clear; did he simply never tell you the difference between a dojo dan and a KKW dan or did he actually lie and tell you that you had an organizational rank?



NPTKD said:


> So I took the time to go to seminars, take private classes from some of my peers and change the whole school over to KKW. Now on my side of it I had to reapply for my fifth under AAU to get my USAT and retest in Vegas to get my KKW. I wasn't cheap to get something that I already had. But I feel that it was worth it.


And you have my respect for doing so!  And I think that your dedication and desire to do things by the book, so to speak, speaks very highly of you.



NPTKD said:


> As far as telling my students they understand the differenace between a school dan and KKW. As a school owner I could have just made the dan myself and kept the money. But even with your opion of the KKW I bet if you gave your student an educated chioce (for the same price) they would take the KKW.


But that assumes that it would be the same price.  The only fee that I as an independent would charge for is the cost of the belt.  KKW registration is 120.00, if I recall.  Most BB tests in TKD are substantially more than that due to the school charging money over and above.  The average seems to be between three and five hundred dollars.  Cost of a belt and a cert is certainly less than a hundred.  Either way, as an independent, I would be charging a lot less.  And yes, I would be very sure that they understood that their grade is a dojo grade, not one from a big org.



NPTKD said:


> But after all I have done... Seeing the quailty of some of the higher dan testers in vegas... I should have never doubted myself and my ability. Just like twin fist.. I don't need the KKW or any onter ORG. to tell me I'm good...But when your a teacher isn't not all about you.


And you are to be commended for your attitude and accomplishments!

But some, such as TF, feel that the org is actually a disservice to the student.  I do not share that belief, but there are many who do and who teach on a nonprofit or even volunteer basis and who do what they do soley for love of the art and for the benefit of their students.

Again, I do appreciate your response, and while I may not be *your* student, I do very much appreciate that a gent like yourself is out there teaching!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> _But it is certainly not a requirement for a financially successful school. Most likely, a business degree is more helpful in that area. _
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't about money!


No, but I was not thinking of you specifically when I said that (sorry).  

I was merely stating that one of the benefits of having organizational affiliation is in marketing one's product.  There are, obviously, other benefits to Kukkwon certification.

Daniel


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

One last thing.. I belong to AAU, Univeral Martial Arts Assoc, Ko Am Du Do.. Their great, but I want to do more things.. Like become an International referee, do competition poomsae and who knows I might move over seas some day. I wanted a org. that would carry my rank to where every I go. Thats it... just give people the chioce. I don't beleave in you get my dan and for a  couple of hundred more you can get this or that dan. that's wrong. An a student shouldn't find out 10 years down the road that if they want a KKW they have to start over and wait to get some thing that they already got through hard work.....


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

I feel for the guy ( 2nd - 6th) he might have been in the same place I was. Maybe his instructor didn't give him the chioce. Or maybe his instructor charged way too much for KKW and the guy could pay it. Maybe he thought that Vegas was his only way to fix his problem.. That's why I have a problem with school dans


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I feel for the guy ( 2nd - 6th) he might have been in the same place I was. Maybe his instructor didn't give him the chioce. Or maybe his instructor charged way too much for KKW and the guy could pay it. Maybe he thought that Vegas was his only way to fix his problem.. That's why I have a problem with school dans


I can respect that.  

I try to be fairly objective in my opinion of big orgs, as I have no shiningly good or horribly bad personal experience to color it.  I have a KKW rank only as a consequence of my GM.  I am glad to have it, but I would have been just as happy with a dojo dan.

And yes, I agree that it is morally wrong to mislead a student regarding what you are presenting them come certificate time.

Daniel


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Firstly, I appreciate you responding.
> 
> 
> Still not clear; did he simply never tell you the difference between a dojo dan and a KKW dan or did he actually lie and tell you that you had an organizational rank?
> ...


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> He is their instructor and is in the best possible position to know if the student has both the skill and the maturity to be promoted.
> 
> Personally, I think that a better question is 'who is the KKW? What contact have they had with the student? Did the student earn his or her first dan at the Kukkiwon in Korea? What do they know of TF's students? Or yours for that matter? Only what you tell them by signing that paper. I have seen way too many eighteen year olds with sloppy technique and multiple stripes on their belt for me to believe that the Kukkiwon is particularly meticulous or that most KKW instructors are particularly meticulous in their dan gradings.


 
I think the key question is were these 18 year olds tested at the KKW or were they tested in their own dojang and then given a KKW certificate?  

If they were tested at KKW and passed, then yes perhaps stricter guidelines in testing need to be adhered to.  If they tested at their own dojang then it is their instructor that needs to blamed for it, not KKW. 

What I tend to see more times than not is everyone pointing the finger at KKW and saying it is their fault for watering down or producing crappy black belts.  How is it their fault?  The vast majority of promotion tests, until you reach 4th dan, is done by the instructor, not KKW.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I think the key question is were these 18 year olds tested at the KKW or were they tested in their own dojang and then given a KKW certificate?
> 
> If they were tested at KKW and passed, then yes perhaps stricter guidelines in testing need to be adhered to. If they tested at their own dojang then it is their instructor that needs to blamed for it, not KKW.
> 
> What I tend to see more times than not is everyone pointing the finger at KKW and saying it is their fault for watering down or producing crappy black belts. How is it their fault? The vast majority of promotion tests, until you reach 4th dan, is done by the instructor, not KKW.


 
   you got it... that is my point also...


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## Twin Fist (May 26, 2009)

i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.

it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

you know... I was pleased ( if that's the respectful word) that KKW didin't pass very one. I was kind of disappointed with the whole thing on the first day. I felt it all of these people pass then why did I work so hard to get here. I also heard that some didn't get the rank that they tested for and they hold USAT to blame. which I don't understand ether.


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.
> 
> it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......


 
I guess my question is this, if they are such bad *** fighters, why can't you teach them to adapt to a different set of rules for the competition?  A great fighter can win under any conditions.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.
> 
> it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......


 

then teach the the rules... WTF is the sport side of it!


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.
> 
> it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......


 

 I didn't know that you could punch to the face in poomsae competiton!


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> you know... I was pleased ( if that's the respectful word) that KKW didin't pass very one. I was kind of disappointed with the whole thing on the first day. I felt it all of these people pass then why did I work so hard to get here. I also heard that some didn't get the rank that they tested for and they hold USAT to blame. which I don't understand ether.


 
Perhaps it is a "I paid for a 6th dan test and only received my 5th dan" situation so they feel jilted out of money.  My opinoin is simple...If you tested for 6th, but you were only as good as a 5th. Then you failed the test and better luck next time.  No middle ground.


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## just2kicku (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.
> 
> it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......



Sounds like they should go to a Kaju tourny then.


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## Twin Fist (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> you know... I was pleased ( if that's the respectful word) that KKW didin't pass very one.




there is something I can agree with


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > _Firstly, I appreciate you responding._
> ...


Certainly would not think you a fool.  It was many years before I ever figured out that there was more than one org per art, and the idea that a school would be independent of these orgs never even occurred to me.  It was not until I started taking taekwondo at Jae Kim's Karate that I figured out that Jhoon Rhee and Jae Kim were not affiliated and that taekwondo was actually a distinct animal from Japanese karatedo.  It was not until I saw the karate kid that realized that karate could have come from anywhere but Japan, lol.



NPTKD said:


> When I did ask things were said like it costs alot or you really don't need it anyway.


That would drive me nuts.  



NPTKD said:


> When I was finally making enough where the price of certian thing were no longer a big deal ( 2 kids , wife car & house payment) I was already a fifth under him. All I could get was a skip to second. Yes I was told I could fly to the Kukkiwon and test there but now I have a school 100 plus student , i'm the only instructor.... so i wrote letters and made calls.. still only a skip. then I found the information about the Vegas test. I think there are alot of people that are or were in my shoes.


Yuck.  As Terry and others had said on his original thread about this, the Vegas test may have been an opportunity to redress some past wrongs.

Thank you for clarifying!

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I guess my question is this, if they are such bad *** fighters, why can't you teach them to adapt to a different set of rules for the competition?  A great fighter can win under any conditions.



sure, they could, but I would have to bastardize my art, and I aint gonna do that, plus I wont cripple my students by turning them into flippy kicking, hands down, fall over when you kick, head WIDE open, jokes. I train fighters and martial artists.

Not kickboxers who cant punch.

plus, hogus are for wussies

Hey, i said MOST of my hate and contempt was reserved for the WTF.:wink:


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## dancingalone (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I guess my question is this, if they are such bad *** fighters, why can't you teach them to adapt to a different set of rules for the competition?  A great fighter can win under any conditions.




I disagree strongly.  If you want to perform well in point sparring, you train for point sparring.  Same for Olympic rules, same for street application.  You may think some elements like timing might overlap, but IMO they are different also since you inevitably aim for different targets with different weapons given the rule set at hand.

If time after time, you train to strike the neck or throat with a sword hand, wouldn't that technique come out inevitably when you are under duress?  Unless of course, mentally you are not under stress when competing in a tournament.


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## Twin Fist (May 26, 2009)

again, off topic

sounds like this guys is A- a looser and B- wasting his money


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont encourage my students to compete at all, and if they wanted to compete, I DAMN sure wouldnt take them to a WTF style event.
> 
> it would be a waste of time, since everyone of them would get DQ'd for excessive contact and punching people in the face.......


 
4th Dan-American Tae Kwon Do
Hogu are for Wussies 



 What are you going to kick kittens next!


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I guess my question is this, if they are such bad *** fighters, why can't you teach them to adapt to a different set of rules for the competition?


He can certainly inform them of such rules is he wished to, but that would not be enough.  As he does not teach it, he is not familiar with the peculiarities of WTF kyorugi.  Students who wish to do that would be better served going to a coach who could help them translate their skills to that particular ruleset.



miguksaram said:


> A great fighter can win under any conditions.


I do not fully agree with this as it relates to competition.  Yes, a great fighter _can_ win, but in order to do so, they need to be well prepared for the arena and rules set.  I am a pretty good fighter and at forty two, am amply skilled in WTF style, but in no way could my GM prepare me to compete in, say, an MMA competition.  While he could teach me the general techniques needed, he is unfamiliar with the rules and specific skill set.

Daniel


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Off topic... that pic was from google not my students. Anyway is that you doing that crane form on you tube?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Anyway is that you doing that crane form on you tube?


If do right, no can defense.

Mr. Myagi


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> sure, they could, but I would have to bastardize my art, and I aint gonna do that, plus I wont cripple my students by turning them into flippy kicking, hands down, fall over when you kick, head WIDE open, jokes. I train fighters and martial artists.
> 
> Not kickboxers who cant punch.
> 
> ...


 
Why bastardize your art?  What does one have to do with the other?  All you are doing is just teaching them different rules for a different contest.  Again, if they have the type of kicking power that you are claiming then they could blast their opponents and knock them out.  It is legal.  

When you say you train fighters and martial artists isn't that redundant?  Are you saying WTF fighters are not martial artists due to the way they fight in a tournament?


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I disagree strongly. If you want to perform well in point sparring, you train for point sparring. Same for Olympic rules, same for street application. You may think some elements like timing might overlap, but IMO they are different also since you inevitably aim for different targets with different weapons given the rule set at hand.
> 
> If time after time, you train to strike the neck or throat with a sword hand, wouldn't that technique come out inevitably when you are under duress? Unless of course, mentally you are not under stress when competing in a tournament.


 
Perhaps I should reword my statement.  A great fighter can *fight* under any conditions.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

twin fist is a drive byposter... posts crap and goes anyway...


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

here he comes.....now


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Go figure I'm a green belt now.. and I didn't have to punch anyone in the face. thank  you MA talk


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## Twin Fist (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Are you saying WTF fighters are not martial artists due to the way they fight in a tournament?



off topic. maybe we should make a new thread for people that want to give me a hard time. Daniel, want to start it??

LOL


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

There have been many good fighters who have switched from set of rules to another without problems.  Arlene Limas and Juan Moreno come to mind as point fighters (who trained to hit in the face) who were able to move into WTF sparring with no problems.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

hard times are for wusses...


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> off topic. maybe we should make a new thread for people that want to give me a hard time. Daniel, want to start it??
> 
> LOL


 
I'm practicing to a lawyer in my next life...I figured you are as good of person as any to on...ha.ha.ha.

Understand TF that I have no animosity or ill will in my questions.  I understand where you are coming from.


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## dancingalone (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Perhaps I should reword my statement.  A great fighter can *fight* under any conditions.



Still wrong in my humble opinion.  I might be a fantastic boxer but would still have little chance against a master swordsman.  And what about combat versus multiple attackers?  A grappler likely would fare less well against multiple opponents than a striker who understands perimeter defense and how to minimize exposure to more than 1 attacker at any given point.  Take the analogy bigger.  Have you ever wondered why the US has a navy, air force, army, and marines?

Fighting and combat are all about CONTEXT.  Given the limited time in the day, I choose to focus on self-defense and that's all I teach.  I don't pretend to be qualified to teach someone to perform well in tournament situations, and in turn, I'd be quite bemused by someone trained exclusively in Olympic rules TKD but yet thinks he has the street application side covered.


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Still wrong in my humble opinion. I might be a fantastic boxer but would still have little chance against a master swordsman....


I am referring to sport fights only. Didn't think I had to elaborate further. If so it would be like this:

A great fighter can fight under any sport conditions as long as the sport is not one where he is boxer being pitted against a Marine sharp shooter stading 100 yards away while a traditional thai boxer, who has dipped their handwraps in glass,is allowed to punch each him in the face, where by appeasing an ancient god of war who will throw a ligtning bolt up his bung hole at 30 paces facing due north in 30 mile an hour winds, as midgets take turns kicking him in the testicles while singing a remix of the oompa loompa song and we are the lolipop gang.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

Just courious.. how many of you have skipped dans?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> When you say you train fighters and martial artists isn't that redundant? Are you saying WTF fighters are not martial artists due to the way they fight in a tournament?


I am not Twin Fist, but I do not believe that he is saying this at all.  WTF rules are not a martial art but a rule set, just as Queensbury rules are not boxing in and of themselves, but a ruleset.  That rule set governs a martial sport.  Keep in mind that the WTF is a sport regulatory body, not an MA organization.  They regulate the *sport* of taekwondo.

A taekwondo practitioner may go and compete in a WTF tournament.  Within the context of the tournament, he or she is applying things that they have learned as a martial artist in the context of being an athlete competing in the WTF ruleset.

I think that is should be fairly clear that TF despises WTF rules.  I have no clue what he thinks of Taegeuk poomsae, though I do recall that he teaches Koryo.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> off topic. maybe we should make a new thread for people that want to give me a hard time. Daniel, want to start it??
> 
> LOL


Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I believe that you and I would likely find ourselves on the same page most of the time.  

Our main point of divergence is that I feel that WTF rules have merit within a certain context (development of kicks and just plain fun) and that the Kukkiwon serves a beneficial purpose, though I am completely with you regarding the historical rewrite issue.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I am referring to sport fights only.  Didn't think I had to elaborate further.  If so it would be like this:



Oh, so you think a Olympic TKD fighter can go directly into the UFC without more training?

As I said above, you get good at what you train at, and that's true for sport fighting or in real life.  Back to my contention:  if you really want to be effective on the street, best to spend a lot of time practicing precisely for that scenario.


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Oh, so you think a Olympic TKD fighter can go directly into the UFC without more training?
> 
> As I said above, you get good at what you train at, and that's true for sport fighting or in real life. Back to my contention: if you really want to be effective on the street, best to spend a lot of time practicing precisely for that scenario.


 
Didn't say that at all.  I said a good fighter can fight under any conditions.  Didn't say they could win nor did I say they could do untrained. I just said they could do it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Just courious.. how many of you have skipped dans?


I have not.  A friend suggested that I look into the Vegas test when it was first announced, given how long I have been practicing, but I did not feel that it was necessary or appropriate for myself.  My circumstances did not involve any underhanded certifications or dojo politics; just my life being very crazy outside of martial arts.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (May 26, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I have not. A friend suggested that I look into the Vegas test when it was first announced, given how long I have been practicing, but I did not feel that it was necessary or appropriate for myself. My circumstances did not involve any underhanded certifications or dojo politics; just my life being very crazy outside of martial arts.
> 
> Daniel


Whoa there...there is such a thing as life outside of martial arts?  Now I know you are jesting.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Still wrong in my humble opinion. I might be a fantastic boxer but would still have little chance against a master swordsman.


All bow to the Martialtalk Swordsmen!  Even babies must stop crying out of fear and respect for us!  Muahaha!!!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Whoa there...there is such a thing as life outside of martial arts? Now I know you are jesting.


Nope.  I wound up in a marriage with two kids in which my ex had no interest in the kids.  Hence, I spent pretty much all of my time parenting and working.  I practiced my kata and poked things with a foil, and thankfully had two SCA buddies who were happy to fence with me in the back yard while the kids slept.  It was not until my kids were older that I was able to finally start persuing personal interests aside from my kids.

No regrets mind you, just the way that life went.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone (May 26, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> All bow to the Martialtalk Swordsmen!  Even babies must stop crying out of fear and respect for us!  Muahaha!!!



Chuck Norris and ninjas trumps all, so I guess I'll join the Bujinkan with Chuck as my shidoshi.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 26, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Chuck Norris and ninjas trumps all, so I guess I'll join the Bujinkan with Chuck as my shidoshi.


Kenjutsu is part of Bujinkan, so you would then be an MT swordsman.

Daniel


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## artFling (May 26, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> god no.
> 
> well, *there is one that we do that the KKW does*, Koryo, but in general? NOPE
> 
> ITF forms all the way baby



Say it isn't so Kimosabe.


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## artFling (May 26, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Wow!!!! you are so angry! Do you need a hug.



Hmmm.  That one takes some thought.  Hang on... Thinking.  Ok, look TF up and give him a hug.  Yeah.


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

artFling said:


> Hmmm. That one takes some thought. Hang on... Thinking. Ok, look TF up and give him a hug. Yeah.[/quote
> 
> 
> What do you mean.


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## terryl965 (May 26, 2009)

Well the latest is he is trying to get alot of folks together for the law suite to have some merit, please be prepared if youare going to test. So many people think because they pay they past what is wrong here folks?


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## Twin Fist (May 26, 2009)

i dont mind failing

but i had better not have to pay twice


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## NPTKD (May 26, 2009)

i guess after awhile you probably have gotten use to it!


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 27, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Well the latest is he is trying to get alot of folks together for the law suite to have some merit, please be prepared if you are going to test. So many people think because they pay they past what is wrong here folks?


Conditioning. They probably never failed a grading before. This could be for three reasons:

*1.* In their own dojo, they are known and their instructors can see them as a complete picture and not just look at the testing. Some folks test better than others, and sometimes, people just get nervous. But an instructor who has worked with you from white belt knows if you are really the quality of whatever grade you are testing for. 

*2.* The dojo policy is that you only test when sensei says you are ready, at which point it really is not a test.

*3.* The most likely reason is that many schools pass you if you pay. 

At a Kukkiwon test, they do not know you, so they cannot look at you as a complete practitioner and take into account any variables. They assume that if you are signing on to test that you feel that you are ready. Because they do not know you, they cannot make that determination. Lastly, they are not a McDojo that needs to keep you coming back for the next belt or keep your mommy and daddy happy.

As you say, Terry, if you go to the Kukkiwon to test, be prepared. Obviously, this guy was not, or at least not for the grade he was testing for.

Daniel


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## NPTKD (May 27, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Conditioning. They probably never failed a grading before. This could be for three reasons:
> 
> *1.* In their own dojo, they are known and their instructors can see them as a complete picture and not just look at the testing. Some folks test better than others, and sometimes, people just get nervous. But an instructor who has worked with you from white belt knows if you are really the quality of whatever grade you are testing for.
> 
> ...


  that says it all! thanks


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