# Are Qigong and TaiChi and Iron Body good for your health?



## Mider1985 (Aug 12, 2010)

Ive been wanting to train in internal arts for a long time. mainly qigong and tai chi. But after i saw a few arts like Uechi and Kyokushin i also wanted to do Iron Body which is similar or perhaps the same as Hard Qi Gong. 

But Ive read in certain places that Tai Chi and Qigong and Iron Body training can actually SHORTEN your life rather then extend it. I remember the founder of Kyokushin Mas Oyama dieing very early from lung cancer even though he didnt smoke. I also remember some Kyokushin fighter who was in PRIDE who also is now dead.

I was even told by Dr Ming of the YMAA that i should reconsider wanting to train in Iron Shirt or anything like that because it had damaging affects. He said that only some students are handpicked to study iron body with him.

Someone Also wrote an article on how TaiChi the way you breath if you mess it up can change your body and cause damaging effects. 

I just want some helpful advice on the facts about Internal arts and arts like Iron Body or Hard Body training.


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## clfsean (Aug 13, 2010)

Anything taught properly & practiced properly will help. Anything missing either of those, could be dangerous.

That is not withstanding the person's own personal medical history.


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## mograph (Aug 13, 2010)

In my opinion ... you shouldn't do anything hard like that until you know your body and have some level of internal sensitivity, and that can only come from "soft" (for lack of a better word) qigong. Otherwise you'd be at the mercy of a teacher who _may_ do you some serious harm, either through ignorance or an assumption that you can tell when you're messing yourself up.

I also have to ask, why do Iron Body? Are you a professional bodyguard or in law enforcement? If I were to do it, I'd only do it for my ego or if my life were in jeopardy on a regular basis. I say this because I'm a middle-aged guy looking to preserve his health well into old age and being able to withstand direct blows doesn't seem to be worth the risks.
Just my opinion.

By the way, it's "Dr. Yang". "Jwing-ming" is his given (first) name.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 13, 2010)

Mider1985 said:


> Ive been wanting to train in internal arts for a long time. mainly qigong and tai chi. But after i saw a few arts like Uechi and Kyokushin i also wanted to do Iron Body which is similar or perhaps the same as Hard Qi Gong.


 
Not recommended without a well trained and knowledgeable teacher. Pay very close attention to the words well trained and knowledgeable



Mider1985 said:


> But Ive read in certain places that Tai Chi and Qigong and Iron Body training can actually SHORTEN your life rather then extend it. I remember the founder of Kyokushin Mas Oyama dieing very early from lung cancer even though he didnt smoke. I also remember some Kyokushin fighter who was in PRIDE who also is now dead.


 
Mas Oyama died at 71 and Lung Cancer can be caused by a lot of things other than smoking. And how many Kyokushin fighters die young?

As for what you read, source please



Mider1985 said:


> I was even told by Dr Ming of the YMAA that i should reconsider wanting to train in Iron Shirt or anything like that because it had damaging affects. He said that only some students are handpicked to study iron body with him.


 
First its Dr .. oh never mind mograph already told you

Do not train Iron shirt without a "well trained" and "knowledgeable" teacher. Without that it can hurt you and likely will cripple when you reach old age.



Mider1985 said:


> Someone Also wrote an article on how TaiChi the way you breath if you mess it up can change your body and cause damaging effects.


 
Again source, I would really like to know how natural breathing can "change your body and cause damaging effects". 

My guess is whomever you are talking to is either clueless or was train improperly by someone who was clueless and likely poorly trained by someone who was way too much of a new age type to be training real taijiquan



Mider1985 said:


> I just want some helpful advice on the facts about Internal arts and arts like Iron Body or Hard Body training.


 
For the record, internal training is not Iron shirt or hard body training. Iron shirt or hard body training is external

And as far as internal training goes again you need a well trained and knowledgeable teacher and knowing 1,000,000 forms rarely equates to "well trained and knowledgeable.

As for Qigong, never, ever train it without a "well trained and knowledgeable teacher because that can mess you up big-time. If trained correctly it is a great way help maintain health. And I cannot stress this enough; A qigong teacher that claims to know a plethora of Qigong styles and forms generally only knows the dance and does not know any depth.


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## mograph (Aug 13, 2010)

If I may add: I'd take a teacher who knows only one form but is well-versed in teaching the internal work over a teacher who knows a hundred forms but can't teach the internal work.

Right now, I'm doing standing practice to get to know my body a little better so, hopefully, I can recognize a well-trained and knowledgeable qigong instructor when I see one.

(XS, I think the OP was referring to the potentially damaging effects of reverse breathing, maybe ...? But this too, requires a competent instructor.)


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 13, 2010)

mograph said:


> (XS, I think the OP was referring to the potentially damaging effects of reverse breathing, maybe ...? But this too, requires a competent instructor.)


 
"if" that is it then again, a "well trained&#8221; and &#8220;knowledgeable&#8221; teacher is best for this.

What I see as the problem with many who start training reverse breathing is they breath to deeply, try and rush things and hurt themselves.... or.. They start training it way to soon.

With reverse breathing; Take your time, relax, take it easy... Patience... In time it will become natural as it applies to form.


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## mograph (Aug 13, 2010)

I've read that reverse breathing is also harmful if it becomes your normal way of breathing, but it has its uses. (sorry, my books are at home, so I can't attribute the source) Of course, forcing it is always wrong, but I guess that approach appeals to the student who believes that results only come from forceful effort. Too bad.

I'd like to meet a qigong teacher who can really connect me with the sensations and take me from the average Joe's "what do I do now?" state to a state where I can actually feel what the teacher is describing or showing. I'd like to hear more "what are you feeling?" along with "that's good, keep doing it" or "not so good, try this" ... rather than "everybody move your arms like this, visualize this color, focus on your dan tien". It all sounds like boilerplate qigong to me, where a teacher just repeats what his teacher said and so on.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 13, 2010)

mograph said:


> I've read that reverse breathing is also harmful if it becomes your normal way of breathing, but it has its uses. (sorry, my books are at home, so I can't attribute the source) Of course, forcing it is always wrong, but I guess that approach appeals to the student who believes that results only come from forceful effort. Too bad.


 
Sorry, I did not mean it would be come your natural way of breathing. I meant the natural way of breathing as it applies to the form.


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## mograph (Aug 13, 2010)

It's cool, XS -- there was no misunderstanding. I was just adding, not correcting. Becoming natural (and knowing when it _is_ natural) is always good.


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## Mider1985 (Aug 13, 2010)

The only people im considering to train Iron Body under are the following schools not all of them of course but they are some schools im considering.

http://www.kyokushinla.com/
http://www.uechi-la.org/
http://www.selfdefensela.com/
http://www.lakungfu.com/

There are more schools but i looked carefully. But still have questions about these things.


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## Mider1985 (Aug 17, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not recommended without a well trained and knowledgeable teacher. Pay very close attention to the words well trained and knowledgeable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well in L.A. there are alot of good teachers in tai chi and qigong. Like students of Jack Wong Man as well as others. Now Im still curious about Hard Body training. the YMAA told me it could cause damage to your body. and George Mattson who teaches Uechi Ryu said that that kinda conditioning can hurt you as your older but that he told his students not to be breaking bats iwth there legs or wrists or boards with there fingers on a daily basis. I think he told me to just stick to a heavy bag and probably the conditioning exercises that dont involve damage but rather involve exercise


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## Rabu (Aug 25, 2010)

These other fine gentlemen have given you good answers.

The best and most succinct answer is a qualified yes.  Meaning the teacher you choose _needs to be qualified_ and *you* _need to qualify_ for the training.  There is a whole lot of crazy out there and the internal arts can sometimes be a strange place to explore.

Not everyone can acheive all or even any of the special skills that you have listed.  Make sure to listen to your body as you train them and have as open a dialogue about the changes your body goes through as you can with your teacher and most likely your doctor.

If you only wish to explore internal art training, you will most likely not harm yourself as long as you shop for a good teacher to begin with.  You are also most likely not to find exactly what you have in your head in reality.

Set goals, keep track of progress and make changes to achieve your goals and reset goals as your knowledge, focus and ability change.

Best of luck and listen to these guys, good advice in general really.


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## oaktree (Aug 30, 2010)

> But Ive read in certain places that Tai Chi and Qigong and Iron Body training can actually SHORTEN your life rather then extend it.


 What a great question! Can Taijiquan or Qigong shorten your life?


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## oaktree (Aug 30, 2010)

> But Ive read in certain places that Tai Chi and Qigong and Iron Body training can actually SHORTEN your life rather then extend it. I remember the founder of Kyokushin Mas Oyama dieing very early from lung cancer even though he didnt smoke. I also remember some Kyokushin fighter who was in PRIDE who also is now dead.


 If you have a bowel movement it can kill you too. 


> During defecation, the thoracic blood pressure rises,[1] and as a reflex response the amount of blood pumped by the heart decreases. Death has been known to occur in cases where defecation causes the blood pressure to rise enough to cause the rupture of an aneurysm or to dislodge blood clots (see thrombosis). Also, in terminating the Valsalva maneuver, blood pressure falls; this, often coupled with standing up quickly to leave the toilet, results in a common incidence of fainting.


 Did I scare the Shi* out of you or what hehe.

If you train incorrectly yes you can damage yourself. It's common sense really but you know people don't have that these days.
Lung cancer can come from many different ways so just because you do not smoke does not mean you are *ahem immune to lung cancer.



> I was even told by Dr Ming of the YMAA that i should reconsider wanting to train in Iron Shirt or anything like that because it had damaging affects. He said that only some students are handpicked to study iron body with him.


 Hehe Dr. Ming. I am unsure how much Dr.Ming hehe or Dr. Jwing Ming Yang studied Iron shirt I know he has written about the subject but writing about it and teaching it well thats two different things. Yes Iron Shirt can have damaging effects common sense really. 
Also if you are not very healthy,do not know the theory of what you are doing then yes you should reconsider Iron Shirt.
Just because YOU THINK YOU should does not mean you should. Just because you have a dvd that shows you doesn't mean you should learn that way.
I really think Dr.Jwing Ming Yang thought you were not the correct student at this time to learn this type of training.
I imagine the students he picks are students he feels can understand the training theory and not get hurt. 


> Someone Also wrote an article on how TaiChi the way you breath if you mess it up can change your body and cause damaging effects.


If you are damaging yourself thru natural breathing it is no longer natural breathing. 



> I just want some helpful advice on the facts about Internal arts and arts like Iron Body or Hard Body training.


My advice is to find a qualified teacher. Learn theory. But I am unsure if being so determined to learn this is good for you. Not everybody body is fit to 
study Iron Shirt. A qualified teacher can determine that. It is possible Dr. Jwing Ming Yang saw something that made him say what he said(I am sure he can determine if a student is ready or not to study this) Think about his words. There may be truth in them.
Perhaps studying a different Qigong style with him that he recommends may be more benefit than studying Iron Body. Maybe studying what he says with him
may build a foundation for your Iron Shirt. But its not up to you its up to the teacher.



> I've read that reverse breathing is also harmful if it becomes your normal way of breathing, but it has its uses. (sorry, my books are at home, so I can't attribute the source) Of course, forcing it is always wrong, but I guess that approach appeals to the student who believes that results only come from forceful effort. Too bad.


 Reverse breathing brings a stronger pull than normal  breathing. When you push an object it is natural to do reverse breathing to give extra power.
When you do Reverse it is easier to direct Qi to the Hui Yin and the Spine completing Small circulation. Looking at reverse breathing how the Inhale "Pull" sucks inwards and the exhale pushes out. In a martial context you can see the power of the Reverse breathing. You do not want this to be your natural way to breathe.
I think it will cause tension in the Middle Jiao because to do reverse breathing you should be very relaxed and in control of the muscles.
If you do Reverse breathing with out sinking and relaxing the Diaphragm you will have tension. 
Reverse breathing is artifical and it has its function. Think of it as a bellow generating heat. 



By the way in Chapter 14 of the Pao pu tzu where Ko Hung talks about traveling thru the mountains and is talking about the Ling Pao talisman.
The phrases Rin (&#33256, Py&#333; (&#20853, T&#333; (&#38360, Sha (&#32773, Kai (&#30342, Jin (&#38499, Retsu (&#21015, Zai (&#22312, Zen (&#21069. Is found. There was speculation this orginally came from India
it may have but it is interesting that Ko Hung knew of this in 320 A.D. It is my speculation that 1.The Ling Pao some how got a hold of it some how tracing it back to India. 2. The Ling Pao created it(It shares alot of common traits with other Taoist prayers of the time) 3.Ko Hung created it based on either the Ling Pao or somewhere else.

Anyway that was more for Xue


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