# Where is systema going to be in 10 years ?



## JohnnyEnglish

Hello community/forum.

Since I am pretty much in to Russian culture and kind of grow up with Russians and it's culture, I still started quiet late to learn about Systema, since I've never practised systema or know anybody specific who practice it, I would like to ask you a couple of questions.

1. Is Systema as effective as people claim it is ? I've seen many split opinions about it, some say it is totally effective and the self-defense/combat system of the future, the other hand says it is total BS. What do you guys say about this ?

2.  How spread is systema in Russia ?

3. How common will Systema be in the actual western world in the next 10 years ( UK,Germany,France,Sweden,Italy,USA,Belgium ). ?

4. For some reason, systema looks similar to Wing-Tsu, is this correct ? Are there many similarities ?

5. Would systema even be able to get common in countries like the UK, since weapons are forbidden ? As far as I know, systema teaches a lot about defense against armed enemies.

6. Is there some sort of grading or ranking system in systema ?

7. Did somebody of you, did actual use systema in a real life situation ? For self defense..

8. People claim, Systema would come from a medieval tribe which developed and used it in combat, is this correct or not correct ?

9. Are there any connections between Sambo and Systema ?

10. Where has systema been in the cold war ? Neither me or my uncles,parents heard about systema, all of them served in a soviet allied nation in the military, they said they were only told kicks and punches from Khjoksul.


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## Mephisto

Imo it's overrated and over marketed. I'd like to see some verification that it's actually the martial art of the Russian special forces because many dubious systems claim to teach LEO and special forces. If it works let's see it in action. Where's the sparring video? Where are the resisting opponents? I realize compliant training is necessary for safety and the initial learning phases but we should be able to see the art in action and trained with some form of resistance. Look at Sambo, no doubt it's an effective art. There are countless examples of sambo guys fighting and using the art effectively against fully resisting opponents. Systema seems to be just the opposite, it's just like a lot of other questionable arts, it's a collection of drills and moves with no delivery system or means to truly pressure test. You believe the art is effective rather than know it is effective.


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## marques

1. I think in the future it can be OK... Because now it looks just like a marketing name to put all of instructors experience under one (known) name. For now 'pure' advanced students are limited (the ones I saw under almost none pressure, at least). Virtually everything is 'Systema'. Everyone breath. This is why it can be very good or very bad. Furthermore, the way they train, the results are in the long run, if any.

3. In Paris it is already very common. There is everywhere. A few training years and a new instructor / academy is born. It is the perfect to relax stressed people from crowded cities.

5. Don't worry. Look at Krav Maga.

6. No grading system other than student or instructors levels.

Good questions, but not for me (the other ones).


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## tigercrane

I am Russian (born and raised) and I have never heard of Systema being used by any Special OPS forces. 

All the RU Elite forces (i.e. Spetznaz, SOBR, Alfa, Vympel to name a few) all train in Martial Sambo ("Боевое Самбо" - RUS), which in my understanding is a brutal offshoot of regular Sambo. 

This is an art that is basically like BJJ on steroids - the efficacy is battle proven and undisputed. Bones are broken, ligaments are torn, eyes gouged and so forth and so on. It has great knife disarming elements as well, not found in other arts.

All elements are based on body mechanics so it won't matter if you are equal to or smaller than your opponent - he goes down in pain and suffering.


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## tigercrane

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Hello community/forum.
> 
> Since I am pretty much in to Russian culture and kind of grow up with Russians and it's culture, I still started quiet late to learn about Systema, since I've never practised systema or know anybody specific who practice it, I would like to ask you a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. Is Systema as effective as people claim it is ? I've seen many split opinions about it, some say it is totally effective and the self-defense/combat system of the future, the other hand says it is total BS. What do you guys say about this ?
> 
> 2.  How spread is systema in Russia ?
> 
> 3. How common will Systema be in the actual western world in the next 10 years ( UK,Germany,France,Sweden,Italy,USA,Belgium ). ?
> 
> 4. For some reason, systema looks similar to Wing-Tsu, is this correct ? Are there many similarities ?
> 
> 5. Would systema even be able to get common in countries like the UK, since weapons are forbidden ? As far as I know, systema teaches a lot about defense against armed enemies.
> 
> 6. Is there some sort of grading or ranking system in systema ?
> 
> 7. Did somebody of you, did actual use systema in a real life situation ? For self defense..
> 
> 8. People claim, Systema would come from a medieval tribe which developed and used it in combat, is this correct or not correct ?
> 
> 9. Are there any connections between Sambo and Systema ?
> 
> 10. Where has systema been in the cold war ? Neither me or my uncles,parents heard about systema, all of them served in a soviet allied nation in the military, they said they were only told kicks and punches from Khjoksul.



This is a system that is not spread in Russia. We have Sambo and variants of Sambo as well as instructors of different levels and objectives. 

Some time ago I looked into Systema and found it to be closely reminding of Sambo. 

There is but one guy who is behind Systema and he is in L.A. area. No doubt about his skill level but this is probably his own fused style of some sort. As Russian, I don't and can't recall anything that is called Systema style (or art if you will) that was even known to anyone.


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## JohnnyEnglish

tigercrane said:


> This is a system that is not spread in Russia. We have Sambo and variants of Sambo as well as instructors of different levels and objectives.
> 
> Some time ago I looked into Systema and found it to be closely reminding of Sambo.
> 
> There is but one guy who is behind Systema and he is in L.A. area. No doubt about his skill level but this is probably his own fused style of some sort. As Russian, I don't and can't recall anything that is called Systema style (or art if you will) that was even known to anyone.



Spasiba!

It was very helpful.


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## Andrew Green

The vast majority of Systema stuff I've seen looks like complete BS.  I can't imagine it getting very far, as has been mentioned if you want a Russian art, Sambo is the thing to look at.  

There will always be some people drawn to it, same as all the other "so great it can't be real, look at my magic powers" arts.  Some people just want the easy answer that you don't have to be in good shape and actually sweat to do.


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## JohnnyEnglish

Andrew Green said:


> The vast majority of Systema stuff I've seen looks like complete BS.  I can't imagine it getting very far, as has been mentioned if you want a Russian art, Sambo is the thing to look at.
> 
> There will always be some people drawn to it, same as all the other "so great it can't be real, look at my magic powers" arts.  Some people just want the easy answer that you don't have to be in good shape and actually sweat to do.



I don't want to start a flamewar or some sort of endless discussion. But I share your opinion. I know quiet a lot of sambo people, and all of them are highly skilled.

I did Wing-Tsun for a while and have been researching on many Wing-Tsun schools and instructors, I also go this far to say that Wing-Tsun is totally BS and not effective at all, nothing there is trained with 100% full power and 100% speed, because 95% of these techniques would not work in a real life situation. I don't know Systema well enough to judge, I only know it out of youtube videos, but I've also seen that they usually just stand there and get beaten by the instructor, all in slowmo nothing in full-speed, no evidence to present the full effectiveness of systema. It looks like Wing-Tsun, just BS.


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## marques

JohnnyEnglish said:


> It looks like Wing-Tsun, just BS.


Without knowing Wing-Tsun, just label everything labeled WT as BS seems too much to me. There are many levels and BS everywhere.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Marques, just an fyi that the user JohnyEnglish has been banned.


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## drop bear

All looks a bit too good to be true.


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## marques

drop bear said:


> All looks a bit too good to be true.


This an example of 'impure' (I mean, with a background in other styles) instructor. I guess under pressure he will start doing judo or something else (Plan B).. and still call it Systema.


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## TSDTexan

Systema claims to go back to the 10th century, and
That it was nearly destroyed by the Soviets. They preserved the martial art and restricted it to elite units.


This is different from sambo... Which is about 90years old.
Vasili Oshchepkov, the Karate and Judo trainer for Russia's Red Army, was one of the founders of Sambo.

With a second degree black belt in judo from Jigoro Kano himself- making him one of the rare non-Japanese to hold such a distinction at the time...

Oshchepkov felt that he could work to formulate a superior martial arts style by adding what worked from judo to what worked from the Russian native wrestling styles, karate, and other arts.

While he worked on finding these techniques, another man by the name of Victor Spiridonov, who had extensive training in Greco-Roman and other forms of wrestling, was also working on taking what worked and leaving out what didn't to revolutionize hand-to-hand combat techniques.

Interestingly, Spiridonov's work was no doubt influenced by the fact that he received a bayonet wound during the Russo-Japanese War that left his left arm crippled.

Thus, the style he worked toward was softer in nature. In other words, rather than meeting power with power he hoped to truly utilize an adversary's strength against them by deflecting their aggression in a direction that they did not want it to go.

In 1918, Vladimir Lenin created the Vseobuch or General Military Training Unit to train the Red Army under the leadership of K. Voroshilov.

Voroshilov then created the NKVD physical training center Dinamo and brought together several qualified instructors. Along with this, Spiridonov was one of the first wrestling and self-defense instructors hired at Dinamo.

In 1923, Oschepkov and Spiridonov collaborated to improve upon the Red Army's hand to hand combat system.

Anatoly Kharlampiev and I.V. Vasiliev, both of whom had studied martial arts around the world extensively, joined in this collaboration.

A decade later, the techniques they brought to the table and combined served as the outline for the style that would eventually become known as Sambo.

Given his political connections and the fact that he had the ability to stick with the formulation of the art through the early stages into the time when it was named, Kharlampiev is often referred to as the father of Sambo.

Along with this, he is the one that truly campaigned for Sambo to become the official combat sport of the Soviet Union, which became a reality in 1938.


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## Koshiki

drop bear said:


> All looks a bit too good to be true.



I'm not sure I would use the word "good" about anything including that knife trap thing at around 2:45 through 2:50. Wow, did that make me uncomfortable, even with a training blade...


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## Star Dragon

I only watched one DVD so far, so I am not very knowledgeable about the topic. It was taken at a seminar, and mostly a demonstration of Systema's "awesome power" on compliant partners. Too little technical explanation offered. The downplay of other martial arts sorta sucked.

There may be some good stuff in Systema, but overall, I am not very impressed. I have some more DVDs waiting since years, one day I will watch them...


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## Doc

On the same list with all the other "fads." Guys like Martin Wheeler are great martial artist with or without "systema," not because of it. I've lived long enough to see all the fads come and go, and they all have one thing in common; its about "selling" the martial arts, not the arts themselves.

I watched old school jiu-jitsu give way to more main stream friendly judo, and Aikido, or Hapkido to TKD, along with the Traditional Chinese Arts morphing into WuShu, etc. The contemporary version of the same process has either gravitated toward pushing more of the "sport" aspect of the arts, or the non-tradition customer friendly no belts, no tradition, no uniform, sweat pants wearing "self-defense" arts that have no form or structure - just drills and mostly "easy going" training. Why? Because it's an easier sell.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't some good people doing these things, but they're good in spite of, not because of the superiority of these "new found" ancient methods. Much like Krav Maga that sprang up suddenly everywhere is supposed to be the Israeli Defense Forces Art, the same is said of "Systema" to the Russians. I know people from both countries who all say the same thing; not true, or never heard of it.

I always tell people, "I guess they emptied the Israeli Army" to find all of these instructors all of a sudden. I wonder who's left defending Israel?" All the Russians I've come in contact with speak proudly of Sambo. "What is this systema you speak of?" That's a good question. From what I can tell, its a self defense art that has no basics, just "stuff" they do. Maybe that's why martial artists from other disciplines might end up there; they already have basics. Who knows?


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