# I no longer care about Jeet Kune Do



## jeff81363

The Wong Jack Man fight in Oakland is shrouded in mystery, but clearly Bruce Lee was dissatisfied enough with the result that he started to move away from modified wing chun and more toward a converted southpaw
boxing style. Bruce watched films of Ali in a mirror to develop the right lead. Bruce also studied Robinson, Pep,
Louis, and Dempsey. Bruce studied books by Dempsey and others, including the United States Navy
boxing manual. What Bruce Lee did not do was swallow his pride and glove up in some Oakland boxing gym, putting his right lead boxing AGAINST BOXERS. I will grant that Lee could beat any of his own students and hold his own with the likes of Norris, Lewis, and stone. However, the fact remains that Bruce refused to put
headgear on and box boxers. Since JKD is right lead boxing with eye jabs, side kicks, and a few other techniques thrown in, it seems to me that it should be more reality based.  MMA and the UFC are about as real
as one can get without athletes being killed or maimed. For decades I worshipped Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do
was the martial arts. Now, I view wing chun as a mediocre Chinese style and JKD as part of a long chain of
developments leading to the first UFC in 1993


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## jobo

jeff81363 said:


> The Wong Jack Man fight in Oakland is shrouded in mystery, but clearly Bruce Lee was dissatisfied enough with the result that he started to move away from modified wing chun and more toward a converted southpaw
> boxing style. Bruce watched films of Ali in a mirror to develop the right lead. Bruce also studied Robinson, Pep,
> Louis, and Dempsey. Bruce studied books by Dempsey and others, including the United States Navy
> boxing manual. What Bruce Lee did not do was swallow his pride and glove up in some Oakland boxing gym, putting his right lead boxing AGAINST BOXERS. I will grant that Lee could beat any of his own students and hold his own with the likes of Norris, Lewis, and stone. However, the fact remains that Bruce refused to put
> headgear on and box boxers. Since JKD is right lead boxing with eye jabs, side kicks, and a few other techniques thrown in, it seems to me that it should be more reality based.  MMA and the UFC are about as real
> as one can get without athletes being killed or maimed. For decades I worshipped Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do
> was the martial arts. Now, I view wing chun as a mediocre Chinese style and JKD as part of a long chain of
> developments leading to the first UFC in 1993


what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?

, i mean dont get me wrong i thought he was pretty ace when i was 14, but then i sort of grew up and realised he was just a movie actor like john Wayne and mr Eastwood

it seems an odd thing for a grown man to spend decades of his life worshipping,


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## Kung Fu Wang

jeff81363 said:


> toward a converted southpaw
> boxing style.


When your opponent move toward your side door (blind side), if you have strong side 

- back, your leading arm may jam your own back arm, you may not have chance to punch out your back hand. 
- front, you can still use your strong leading hook punch to stop your opponent from moving toward your side door. 

Also with strong side forward, it's much easier to integrate your throwing art with your striking art.


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## KOKarate

I’m no expert in all this but from what I remember hearing and I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong but JKD was not really meant to be a commercial system...it was Bruce Lee’s own personal way of fighting it wasn’t meant to be set in stone. It actually has a lot of similarities with American kenpo in that regard (which makes sense because Bruce lee and Ed Parker lived together when Bruce was broke so obviously they shared ideas) and both arts have suffered similar fates of their students refusing to adapt the system since the founders death.

as for Bruce lee. Yeah I agree his ego was huge by all accounts and yeah he never properly entered an American boxing gym I believe some of his students were former boxers. Whether or not he sparred with them in pure boxing we’ll never know, there’s loads of exaggerated stories out there to build up the myth of Bruce lee to make the gullible think he was this untouchable god. At the end of the day they system is only as good as the practitioner.


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## Highlander

KOKarate said:


> At the end of the day they system is only as good as the practitioner.


This. Right here.


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## Flying Crane

I’m certainly glad the OP got all that off his chest.


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## Bruce7

No one liked Bruce Lee's ego, but when Bruce Lee found someone he could learn from, he humble himself and put in the work to perfect a new skill.
I was not there, but I was told from someone I trust. Bruce Lee ask Jack Hwang how to do a certain kick.
Jack Hwang did not put up egos, so Bruce Lee must have shown respect. I was told after 3 times it had it about right, but continue the rest of the day perfecting it.

What you call a jab is not a simple jab, their is much more to it. 
Jack Hwang called it a snap punch. I spent hours and hours getting it right.
I don't know if Bruce Lee taught it to Jack Hwang or Jack Hwang taught it to Bruce Lee. I just know it is the same punch.
Bruce Lee was dedicated to being the best martial artist.  
Bruce Lee realized it is not the style, It is finding the best teachers and using what they could teach him.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Also with strong side forward, it's much easier to integrate your throwing art with your striking art.


I’m curious about this comment, John. I think Intend to enter weak hand first more often with grappling, though that’s an impression rather than solid data. Why do you say strong-side-forward is better for grappling?


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> Why do you say strong-side-forward is better for grappling?


Most of the time, the

- leading arm is your major arm. Your 1st line defense. You use it to control your opponent's body such as head, neck, shoulder, waist. More complicate function. More used for push.

- back arm is your minor arm. Your 2nd line defense. You use it to control your opponent's arm. Much simpler function. More used for pull.


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## Bruce7

KOKarate said:


> I’m no expert in all this but from what I remember hearing and I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong but JKD was not really meant to be a commercial system...it was Bruce Lee’s own personal way of fighting it wasn’t meant to be set in stone. It actually has a lot of similarities with American kenpo in that regard (which makes sense because Bruce lee and Ed Parker lived together when Bruce was broke so obviously they shared ideas) and both arts have suffered similar fates of their students refusing to adapt the system since the founders death.
> 
> as for Bruce lee. Yeah I agree his ego was huge by all accounts and yeah he never properly entered an American boxing gym I believe some of his students were former boxers. Whether or not he sparred with them in pure boxing we’ll never know, there’s loads of exaggerated stories out there to build up the myth of Bruce lee to make the gullible think he was this untouchable god. At the end of the day they system is only as good as the practitioner.



IMO that was a very good post.
Another point I would like to add some great practitioners are excellent teachers and some or not.
I love superfoot Bill Wallace video's. IMO he is a great teacher, but other great practitioners were not great teachers.


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## lklawson

jobo said:


> what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?
> 
> , i mean dont get me wrong i thought he was pretty ace when i was 14, but then i sort of grew up and realised he was just a movie actor like john Wayne and mr Eastwood
> 
> it seems an odd thing for a grown man to spend decades of his life worshipping,


Don't you dare talk bad about Marion or Clint!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Rusty B

Bruce Lee's professional fight record is 0-0.  Find ANY male professional fighter in MMA or any other 4 or 8-point striking sport with at least one win, and I'll gladly put my money on him.

ALL of JKD's perceived credibility comes from the fact that Bruce Lee invented it.  Imagine where it would be right now, if it had been anyone else.


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## Bruce7

Rusty B said:


> Bruce Lee's professional fight record is 0-0.  Find ANY male professional fighter in MMA or any other 4 or 8-point striking sport with at least one win, and I'll gladly put my money on him.
> 
> ALL of JKD's perceived credibility comes from the fact that Bruce Lee invented it.  Imagine where it would be right now, if it had been anyone else.



While I believe Bruce Lee is an excellent Martial Artist and probably a very good fighter. 
I have to agree you brought up a very good point. Why did Bruce Lee not enter Tournaments in the 1960's or 1970's?
The big tournaments were open. They did not care if you were Karate, TKD, Kempo, Kung Fu or what ever so long as you were good.


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## Rusty B

Bruce7 said:


> While I believe Bruce Lee is an excellent Martial Artist and probably a very good fighter.
> I have to agree you brought up a very good point. Why did Bruce Lee not enter Tournaments in the 1960's or 1970's?
> The big tournaments were open. They did not care if you were Karate, TKD, Kempo, Kung Fu or what ever so long as you were good.



Ramsey Dewey once said in a podcast that he believes he could have beaten Bruce Lee.

To the Bruce Lee fanboys and, hell, probably to even the average person... that sounds like blasphemy.

Of course, reality has to set in: we've all seen Ramsey Dewey win fights.  We can't say that about Bruce Lee.

As to why he never entered the tournaments or any combat sport... I've sure he explained it in a way that's designed to sound like Far East ancient wisdom-babble.  And unless you've got more charisma than a cult leader, it would've been unwise to publicly deconstruct and challenge it... because you'd end up looking bad in front of the world, even if you were right.

BTW, I remember reading somewhere that he got a CCP everywhere he could possibly get one; because he knew people would try to challenge his reputation as "the man no one can beat."

Any claim that Bruce Lee could "beat anyone" can be destroyed in three words: show me proof.


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## Steve

Rusty B said:


> Bruce Lee's professional fight record is 0-0.  Find ANY male professional fighter in MMA or any other 4 or 8-point striking sport with at least one win, and I'll gladly put my money on him.
> 
> ALL of JKD's perceived credibility comes from the fact that Bruce Lee invented it.  Imagine where it would be right now, if it had been anyone else.


Are you suggesting that competitive sport martial artists are superior?


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## Rusty B

Steve said:


> Are you suggesting that competitive sport martial artists are superior?



Only if by "superior," you mean "will beat the breaks off any non-competitive sport martial artist."


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## punisher73

As to the stories of BL's infamous "rooftop" fights when he was younger in Hong Kong.  There is some old video of one.  Looks like your average schoolyard fight in anywhere, USA.  

As to BL, I think he was very gifted as an athlete with superb reflexes and his physical attributes carried him far.  Men like Ed Parker, Wally Jay and Gene LeBell all said he was very gifted physically and could pick up any technique after just seeing it, but had a very shallow depth of knowledge in regards to martial arts.

BUT, he died when he was only 32 and didn't have time to grow or evolve, which he most likely would have done.  We don't know if his martial arts would have taken more of a backseat with the breakthrough he would have achieved with Enter the Dragon.  We also don't know how he would have evolved his art as he got older and lost some of his physical attributes and how he would have compensated.

As to the crosstraining and Bruce Lee being the "Grandfather of MMA", I disagree.  Bruce Lee spent a lot of time in California with Kajukenbo guys and others who had already taken different arts and mixed them together.  Even his protégé, Dan Inosanto, had already trained in several different arts before coming to Bruce Lee.  He was just the most famous mouthpiece, but again nothing original.


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## Bruce7

punisher73 said:


> As to the stories of BL's infamous "rooftop" fights when he was younger in Hong Kong.  There is some old video of one.  Looks like your average schoolyard fight in anywhere, USA.
> 
> As to BL, I think he was very gifted as an athlete with superb reflexes and his physical attributes carried him far.  Men like Ed Parker, Wally Jay and Gene LeBell all said he was very gifted physically and could pick up any technique after just seeing it, but had a very shallow depth of knowledge in regards to martial arts.
> 
> BUT, he died when he was only 32 and didn't have time to grow or evolve, which he most likely would have done.  We don't know if his martial arts would have taken more of a backseat with the breakthrough he would have achieved with Enter the Dragon.  We also don't know how he would have evolved his art as he got older and lost some of his physical attributes and how he would have compensated.
> 
> As to the crosstraining and Bruce Lee being the "Grandfather of MMA", I disagree.  Bruce Lee spent a lot of time in California with Kajukenbo guys and others who had already taken different arts and mixed them together.  Even his protégé, Dan Inosanto, had already trained in several different arts before coming to Bruce Lee.  He was just the most famous mouthpiece, but again nothing original.



I agree with your post.
I was not there, I was told by black belts I respect that Bruce Lee's ability to quickly learn advance techniques was amazing. 
IMO He was not known as a good teacher. Maybe with age he would have develop that skill.


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?


people worship utter bellend Gangsters in the UK too. I despair when i see it online all the Kray worshippers, Paul Sykes...etc.  although at least Paul Sykes was a real boxer just drunk too much & could not control his violence outside the ring.  Better Bruce Lee than any of those dregs of society. I get your point though but regardless Bruce lee was ahead of his time.


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> people worship utter bellend Gangsters in the UK too. I despair when i see it online all the Kray worshippers, Paul Sykes...etc.  although at least Paul Sykes was a real boxer just drunk too much & could not control his violence outside the ring.  Better Bruce Lee than any of those dregs of society. I get your point though but regardless Bruce lee was ahead of his time.


in what way was he ahead of his time,?

he was a one man PR machine, but that largely it


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> in what way was he ahead of his time,?
> 
> he was a one man PR machine, but that largely it


I think he was very open minded & there for looked at other systems to utilize what worked for him. Sure now people do this but i think in his time systems were much more rigid.


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## stanly stud

The problem with JKD is a lot of instructors tend to teach their own ideas. The JKD system or as it was called before it Jun Fan Gung Fu was slightly different. There is wing chun in there but it´s not as much as people think. It turned sadly into a mish mash of different peoples interpretations over the years.


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> I think he was very open minded & there for looked at other systems to utilize what worked for him. Sure now people do this but i think in his time systems were much more rigid.


i think people have been doing that since the begining, thats clearly how all system developed

even i did it about the same time as bruce, where i joined judo and boxing together, it not hard to do


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> i think people have been doing that since the begining, thats clearly how all system developed
> 
> even i did it about the same time as bruce, where i joined judo and boxing together, it not hard to do


yes very true(Ed Parker was a good example) but i think he even looked at Fencing to use in his system so i think he was a special guy. very deep. End of the Day apples & oranges mate. If he was not so talented why would people like steve McQueen train with him or other hollywood greats at that time?


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## stanly stud




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## stanly stud

https://ia800908.us.archive.org/32/items/pdfy-SP1dBDr6xLGrVfF9/Tao Of Jeet Kune Do.pdf


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> yes very true(Ed Parker was a good example) but i think he even looked at Fencing to use in his system so i think he was a special guy. very deep. End of the Day apples & oranges mate. If he was not so talented why would people like steve McQueen train with him or other hollywood greats at that time?


famous people like other famous people, they even tend to marry them,

im not saying he wasnt talented, he was very strong,  very fit and very fast, if he was a particularly talented fighter beyond those attributes, is rather unknow, but lets say he was, he is just one of many thousands of very tallented fighters,

im not sure george foreman has people d3dicating their life to his every word, now his grills is a different matter


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> famous people like other famous people, they even tend to marry them,
> 
> im not saying he wasnt talented, he was very strong,  very fit and very fast, if he was a particularly talented fighter beyond those attributes, is rather unknow, but lets say he was, he is just one of many thousands of very tallented fighters,
> 
> im not sure george foreman has people d3dicating their life to his every word, now his grills is a different matter


well all i can say is ..


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> i think people have been doing that since the begining, thats clearly how all system developed
> 
> even i did it about the same time as bruce, where i joined judo and boxing together, it not hard to do



An obvious one if you ever read an old comic book. And apart from dynamic tension Charles Atlas also sold self defence.


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## drop bear

stanly stud said:


> yes very true(Ed Parker was a good example) but i think he even looked at Fencing to use in his system so i think he was a special guy. very deep. End of the Day apples & oranges mate. If he was not so talented why would people like steve McQueen train with him or other hollywood greats at that time?



Does that make Steven Segal talented?


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> An obvious one if you ever read an old comic book. And apart from dynamic tension Charles Atlas also sold self defence.
> 
> View attachment 23479


the bullworker was and is marvelous, just very exspensive, you can make your own dynamic tension device for nothing, but no wall chart

every lad my age, had an electic guitar,  a copy of tubular bells and a bull worker in his bed room


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## stanly stud

drop bear said:


> Does that make Steven Segal talented?


Depends on the individuell. like i wrote apples & oranges. what tastes better?
Segal was a very good aikidoka in Japan so no arguement there. If he was qualified to train these ufc guys is a matter of opinion. nothing to do with Bruce Lee or his training.


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> the bullworker was and is marvelous, just very exspensive, you can make your own dynamic tension device for nothing, but no wall chart
> 
> every lad my age, had an electic guitar,  a copy of tubular bells and a bull worker in his bed room


Charles Atlas courses never used a bullworker. It was Dynamic(isomentric) tension. The Bullworker was more Isotonic(movement) & isometric(static) as i remember.


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## stanly stud

Types of Muscle Contractions: Isotonic and Isometric | Lifetime Fitness and Wellness (lumenlearning.com)


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> Charles Atlas courses never used a bullworker. It was Dynamic(isomentric) tension. The Bullworker was more Isotonic(movement) & isometric(static) as i remember.


how do you know he never use it ? ive seen pictures of him using it!


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> how do you know he never use it ?


he never sold it with his courses. If he used an early version of it i do not know. Even Joe weider sold devices as did Reg park from Leeds. expanders and other things. goes back to the old strong men I suggest you look at this guys channel too.


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> he never sold it with his courses. If he used an early version of it i do not know. Even Joe weider sold devices as did Reg park from Leeds. expanders and other things. goes back to the old strong men I suggest you look at this guys channel too.


ive seen pictures if him using one,, he may have only used it just for the picture , but he still use it


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## stanly stud




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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> ive seen pictures if him using one,, he may have only used it just for the picture , but he still use it


maybe you are correct. not saying you´re wrong but his course i saw as my older brother had it.


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> Charles Atlas courses never used a bullworker. It was Dynamic(isomentric) tension. The Bullworker was more Isotonic(movement) & isometric(static) as i remember.


well yes it has an element of both, which makes it superior to a fixed device,

it also gives you concentric and ecentric contraction, wonderful device

its very hard to tell the differance between very slow isokinetic( isotonic) and a series of isometic holds in varying joint position

they look exactly the same to the casual obsever


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> well yes it has an element of both, which makes it superior to a fixed device,
> 
> it also gives you concentric and ecentric contraction, wonderful device
> 
> its very hard to tell the differance between very slow isokinetic( isotonic) and a series of isometic holds in varying joint position


Rubber bands are also good but still...will never give you development like a Good bench, squat stands, barbell Dumbbells. I still have a bullworker will make a photo tomorrow it´s in my basement. I even have old school iron boots !


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## stanly stud

i also when youger used gravity boots for sit ups but i now use a steep incline bench. It´s fixed so it´s similar just not so extreme. 54 now so not so extreme as before.


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## stanly stud

hardcore baby  (not me in the video) but the exercise is good


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> Rubber bands are also good but still...will never give you development like a Good bench, squat stands, barbell Dumbbells. I still have a bullworker will make a photo tomorrow it´s in my basement. I even have old school iron boots !


straight back to the beginning,  development at what, ? restance is resistance, you body nether knows nor cares what it is providing the resistance

isometrics, provided your actually using max effort and not half arsing it will make you mind blowingly strong, very quickly, if thats stronger/ faster than a bench press is difficult to say for definite,  they are both good, one you can do sat in your arm chair, that gets my vote, if i could have one peice of equipment and no other it would be a cable pull machine, but i use bike innertubes instead,  net savibg of 2k


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i also when youger used gravity boots for sit ups but i now use a steep incline bench. It´s fixed so it´s similar just not so extreme. 54 now so not so extreme as before.


are you clampibg your feet under some thing, if so stop it immediatly and do them clean, when thats easy, put your feet on a box


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> straight back to the beginning,  development at what, ? restance is resistance, you body nether knows nor cares what it is providing the resistance
> 
> isometrics, provided your actually using max effort and not half arsing it will make you mind blowingly strong, very quickly, if thats stronger/ faster than a bench press is difficult to say for definite,  they are both good, one you can do sat in your arm chair, that gets my vote, if i could have one peice of equipment and no other it would be a cable pull machine, but i use bike innertubes instead,  net savibg of 2k


problem with isometrics is are you pushing the same poundage every time can you increase the load systematically? in weight training you can even use Micro plates for small adjustments taking your example of the bench press..there for it´s superior in my books.
Sat in an arm chair will not give you development like a standing barbell press or Deadlift. 
How many Mr Olympia winners used a bullworker?


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> are you clampibg your feet under some thing, if so stop it immediatly and do them clean, when thats easy, put your feet on a box


i am doing a sit up..full sit up using my hip flexors too. I am doing this on purpose as i need these deeper muscles for my martial arts training.


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> problem with isometrics is are you pushing the same poundage every time can you increase the load systematically? in weight training you can even use Micro plates for small adjustments taking your example of the bench press..there for it´s superior in my books.
> Sat in an arm chair will not give you development like a standing barbell press or Deadlift.
> How many Mr Olympia winners used a bullworker?


well your not, take my door lift, exercise, my arms are fighting my quads, as my quads get stronger it loads my arms more, as my arms get stronglmer ir loads my quads and everything in between up more, there is no upper limit, untill i actualy pick the house up

or try and bend a( good quality) sweeping  brush handle, it defects, the more it deflect the more the resistance, there is,


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> well your not, take my door lift, exercise, my arms are fighting my quads, as my quads get stronger it loads my arms more, as my arms get stronglmer ir loads my quads and everything in between up more,
> 
> or try and bend a( good quality) sweeping  brush handle, it defects, the more it deflect the more the resistance, there is,


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i am doing a sit up..full sit up using my hip flexors too. I am doing this on purpose as i need these deeper muscles for my martial arts training.


you mean your doing hip flexor exercises, that ok, just dont call them sit ups,

make it harder  by doing it on an incline,  then make it easy by clamping  your feet,,, eeeer


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## stanly stud

jobo said:


> you mean your doing hip flexor exercises, that ok, just dont call them sit ups,
> 
> make it harder  by doing it on an incline,  then make it easy by clamping  your feet,,, eeeer


i will make a picture of my bench tomorrow. I can bang out sit ups on a floor mat or crunches or double crunches.(trust me i know it all) 
you see hip flexors are important for many reasons.


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## stanly stud

i suggest you get this book. read about hip flexors & see the crunches they did as we did in the army. Double crunch legs straight never touching the floor coming up to elbows.  Sit ups, leg raises. why train hip flexors? going over an assault course you need these muscles. If you want a beach body sure do "isolation crunches" & a lower back exercise. You will never, never hit the deeper muscles with simple crunches curling your rib cage to your pelvis or a reverse crunch, pelvis to rib cage.
The Royal Marines Circuit Training: Amazon.de: Eggar, Robin, Loraine, Dieter: Fremdsprachige Bücher


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i will make a picture of my bench tomorrow. I can bang out sit ups on a floor mat or crunches or double crunches.(trust me i know it all)
> you see hip flexors are important for many reasons.


mostly for flexibg you hips, what most people dont need are stronger hip flexers that dont eer flex


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## Ivan

jeff81363 said:


> The Wong Jack Man fight in Oakland is shrouded in mystery, but clearly Bruce Lee was dissatisfied enough with the result that he started to move away from modified wing chun and more toward a converted southpaw
> boxing style. Bruce watched films of Ali in a mirror to develop the right lead. Bruce also studied Robinson, Pep,
> Louis, and Dempsey. Bruce studied books by Dempsey and others, including the United States Navy
> boxing manual. What Bruce Lee did not do was swallow his pride and glove up in some Oakland boxing gym, putting his right lead boxing AGAINST BOXERS. I will grant that Lee could beat any of his own students and hold his own with the likes of Norris, Lewis, and stone. However, the fact remains that Bruce refused to put
> headgear on and box boxers. Since JKD is right lead boxing with eye jabs, side kicks, and a few other techniques thrown in, it seems to me that it should be more reality based.  MMA and the UFC are about as real
> as one can get without athletes being killed or maimed. For decades I worshipped Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do
> was the martial arts. Now, I view wing chun as a mediocre Chinese style and JKD as part of a long chain of
> developments leading to the first UFC in 1993


The problem with MMA and UFC is that it produces very one dimensional fighters. I mean that's why I can't get myself into it. Every fighter is virtually the same except some of them are better at specific elements, such as grappling, than others.

As for Jeet Kune Do, even Bruce Lee abandoned it, because it became the one thing that Bruce Lee was against. In his attempt at helping others "take what is useful, and leave the rest" he ended up only teaching techniques that were best suited for him. This led to the development of the Jeet Kune Do style when ironically, Bruce Lee was against the idea of "styles". In order to achieve what he wanted to do, you would have to teach every single technique you know (not just the ones you find useful) to your students - it's the fighters who decide what techniques are useful to them, not their coaches (though some may disagree with this, which I understand).

You're doing a good thing for yourself because limiting yourself to one perspective is not something to aspire towards.

EDIT: Also, another thing to keep in mind. Many of the stories about Bruce Lee could easily be fake. It's important to understand the difference between factual stories, and inflated stories that sprout from his legendary status among the masses.


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## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i suggest you get this book. read about hip flexors & see the crunches they did as we did in the army. Double crunch legs straight never touching the floor coming up to elbows.  Sit ups, leg raises. why train hip flexors? going over an assault course you need these muscles. If you want a beach body sure do "isolation crunches" & a lower back exercise. You will never, never hit the deeper muscles with simple crunches curling your rib cage to your pelvis or a reverse crunch, pelvis to rib cage.
> The Royal Marines Circuit Training: Amazon.de: Eggar, Robin, Loraine, Dieter: Fremdsprachige Bücher


but your not in the royal marines and your 53, are you actually considering doibg an atmy assualt course in the foreable future,  if not im not at all sure of the relevance 
.if your usibg your hip flexers to do sit ups, your not usibg your abs much or at all really, if thats what your trying to do, fine, just dont make out its some secret army fitness program, when in fact your cheating yourself of fitness


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## Ivan

stanly stud said:


> i suggest you get this book. read about hip flexors & see the crunches they did as we did in the army. Double crunch legs straight never touching the floor coming up to elbows.  Sit ups, leg raises. why train hip flexors? going over an assault course you need these muscles. If you want a beach body sure do "isolation crunches" & a lower back exercise. You will never, never hit the deeper muscles with simple crunches curling your rib cage to your pelvis or a reverse crunch, pelvis to rib cage.
> The Royal Marines Circuit Training: Amazon.de: Eggar, Robin, Loraine, Dieter: Fremdsprachige Bücher


Strong and flexible hip flexors are also very helpful for many kicks and tricking techniques.


----------



## drop bear

stanly stud said:


> Depends on the individuell. like i wrote apples & oranges. what tastes better?
> Segal was a very good aikidoka in Japan so no arguement there. If he was qualified to train these ufc guys is a matter of opinion. nothing to do with Bruce Lee or his training.



In your opinion that qualifies Steven Segal as talented. Just like Bruce Lee was talented because he trained famous people. 

"If he was not so talented why would people like steve McQueen train with him or other hollywood greats at that time?"


----------



## drop bear

Ivan said:


> The problem with MMA and UFC is that it produces very one dimensional fighters. I mean that's why I can't get myself into it. Every fighter is virtually the same except some of them are better at specific elements, such as grappling, than others.



I would love to hear how this one is supported.

*it's the fighters who decide what techniques are useful to them, not their coaches (though some may disagree with this, which I understand)
*
I have mentioned this concept myself as a core principle of certain styles.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> but your not in the royal marines and your 53, are you actually considering doibg an atmy assualt course in the foreable future,  if not im not at all sure of the relevance
> .if your usibg your hip flexers to do sit ups, your not usibg your abs much or at all really, if thats what your trying to do, fine, just dont make out its some secret army fitness program, when in fact your cheating yourself of fitness



Doing an army assault course at 53 isn't exactly the 1% activity it once was. 

Spartans races are harder.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Doing an army assault course at 53 isn't exactly the 1% activity it once was.
> 
> Spartans races are harder.



really so what % of 50 odd year old have competed, an army assialt course,? i think 1% a bit high, i know dozens of them and non of them have, but clearly you have figures i


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> really so what % of 50 odd year old have competed, an army assialt course,? i think 1% a bit high, i know dozens of them and non of them have, but clearly you have figures i



No idea. It is accessible to more than 1% 

 Spartan has a 50 plus division. So there are enough people doing obstacles to make it viable.

And it is open entry to anyone.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> No idea. It is accessible to more than 1%
> 
> Spartan has a 50 plus division. So there are enough people doing obstacles to make it viable.
> 
> And it is open entry to anyone.


well yea, you can hike acxross the artic ice cap if you want, just coz it accessible  doesnt mean many people do it, certainly not old men,

now dont get me wrong, im a firm beliver, that 50 odd year okd could do it, that they can maibtain a very high level of fitness well into their 60s, just that the people who dothat are from observation of my contemporaries,  a very small % of the whole, even more that once you have let yourself go, its difficult in the extreme to get it back again, your likely to have lost 20lbs of muscle mass by the time your in your 50s if youve  been compartaivly sedimentary for the 20 years or so, just putting on that level of muscle mass can be taxibg in the extreme and take an excesivly long time in your 50s

which is why those that do sort themselves out tend to go for endurance rather than power sports,  as the loss of muscle mass is less important and can even assist


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> straight back to the beginning,  development at what, ? restance is resistance, you body nether knows nor cares what it is providing the resistance
> 
> isometrics, provided your actually using max effort and not half arsing it will make you mind blowingly strong, very quickly, if thats stronger/ faster than a bench press is difficult to say for definite,  *they are both good, one you can do sat in your arm chair, that gets my vote*, if i could have one peice of equipment and no other it would be a cable pull machine, but i use bike innertubes instead,  net savibg of 2k


i see you are 61. so  my advice would be to get out your arm chair more often instead of trolling on here all day. 
as to my age 54 i have always kept fit. i know over 50s who do tough mudder competitions so being in your 50s is a weak excuse because you are not in shape. 
start going cycling or long walks, work on your hammie & stretch your muscles. I guarantee your  lower back hurts sitting all day. working hip flexors & lower back hammies prevents shortening of muscles. 
Use it or lose it


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i see you are 61. so  my advice would be to get out your arm chair more often instead of trolling on here all day.
> as to my age 54 i have always kept fit. i know over 50s who do tough mudder competitions so being in your 50s is a weak excuse because you are not in shape.
> start going cycling or long walks, work on your hammie & stretch your muscles. I guarantee your  lower back hurts sitting all day. working hip flexors & lower back hammies prevents shortening of muscles.
> Use it or lose it


im excesivly fit for a 61 one year old, i just dont waste time on training for an hour when i can get a better result in 5 minutes,  

as for cycling  im currently working my way up to a 300 mile tour, that however is time consuming, there is no way to train to cycle for 5 hours with out , spending 5 hours cycling


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> spending 5 hours cycling


well _if _ you are doing this you need to train lower back, hammies(not just quads as you will get muscle imbalance) , abs. also upper back, neck.  sorry but with a bullworker you won´t do this. I can also recommend a book i have from Bill pearl called getting stronger. It has training programmes for a lot of sports including cycling. 
On a side note: although Bill Pearl was a champion bodybuilder he retired i think in 1971 from competition & for several years took up serious cycling. read the book.


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> well _if _ you are doing this you need to train lower back, hammies(not just quads as you will get muscle imbalance) , abs. also upper back, neck.  sorry but with a bullworker you won´t do this. I can also recommend a book i have from Bill pearl called getting stronger. It has training programmes for a lot of sports including cycling.
> On a side note: although Bill Pearl was a champion bodybuilder he retired i think in 1971 from competition & for several years took up serious cycling. read the book.


the best training for cycling  is cycling and i do plenty of that, my few mins a day training is all the,strengh training i need, obviously or id do more, 

you can train hard or you can train long, you cant do both, and mine is seriously hard


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> the best training for cycling  is cycling and i do plenty of that, my few mins a day training is all the,strengh training i need, obviously or id do more,
> 
> you can train hard or you can train long, you cant do both, and mine is seriously hard


Here do this. Lunges notice why you train Hip flexors ... read & learn. 
The Best Strength Exercises for Cyclists | TrainingPeaks


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> Here do this. Lunges notice why you train Hip flexors ... read & learn.
> The Best Strength Exercises for Cyclists | TrainingPeaks


my cycling doesnt need strengh it needs endurance, im going far not fast, when i started again after a 4 year lay off my hip flexers were a major problem, i had to walk 15 miles home one night,,  as they wouldnt do another pedal stroke, that was two months ago, there fine now, its my quads that pack up, , it lack of glucose,  i think, they will get there, im not going till april, the problem i have now, isnt doing the time or the distance, its doing it everyday


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> my cycling doesnt need strengh it needs endurance, im going far not fast, when i started again after a 4 year lay off my hip flexers were a major problem, i had to walk 15 miles home one night,,  as they wouldnt do another pedal stroke, that was two months ago, there fine now, its my quads that pack up, , it lack of glucose,  i think, they will get there, im not going till april, the problem i have now, isnt doing the time or the distance, its doing it everyday


it´s also about injury prevention. i had a mate who was a footballer (soccer) & a very good runner & i can tell you he had a few injuries mainly due to not enough stretching & target weight training. He also started to do shotokan karate with me. he was as stiff as a board. had nothing but problems with kicks & as you maybe know deep stances typical in shotokan ground school. upper strength got somewhat better with the kata training but he was never able to reach his true potential. look at a simple stiff legged deadlift or romanian deadlift. perfect. you spoke about not wasting time them try them it works all the important muscles. 
ever heard pof POF Training with steve holman ?  The three phases of a muscle. contraction, stretch , midrange.  pof stands for positions of flexion. the stiff legged deadlift trains midrange & stretch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> ive seen pictures if him using one,, he may have only used it just for the picture , but he still use it


He said the courses never used it, not that Atlas never did.


----------



## stanly stud

gpseymour said:


> He said the courses never used it, not that Atlas never did.


yeah was a long time ago my older brother had a course from him. Was like pushing against walls & stuff isometrics. even weight training around that time had "Isometric power racks". seen pictures of bruce lee using one.


----------



## stanly stud




----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> He said the courses never used it, not that Atlas never did.


il read it again, but at this stage im convinced,  that exactly what he said in an earlier post


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> il read it again, but at this stage im convinced,  that exactly what he said in an earlier post


it´s not important mate. get over it. I will train you for free


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> as the loss of muscle mass is less important


sorry but i can´t agree with this. I worked in Gyms & there are more people over 50 training more than ever. I trained a lot of older people. It´s also important to weight train as you get older for bone density. 
Bone density enhanced by weight training in the elderly – Nursing Home and Assisted Living Information (nursinghomediaries.com)


----------



## stanly stud

drop bear said:


> Spartan has a 50 plus division. So there are enough people doing obstacles to make it viable.


100% correct.


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> sorry but i can´t agree with this. I worked in Gyms & there are more people over 50 training more than ever. I trained a lot of older people. It´s also important to weight train as you get older for bone density.
> Bone density enhanced by weight training in the elderly – Nursing Home and Assisted Living Information (nursinghomediaries.com)


what are you bot ageeing' with' resistance traing has masive benefits ' and the older you get the more beifit it gives you' not to improve but to slow down d3generation'

but the fact remain' that by the age of 50 most people who havent spent the intervening 20 years resistance training' will have lost 15 to 20lbs of muscle' puttibg that back is the devils own job when your lacking test and growth hormone' do able perhaps but really not at all easy'

people who do go back to sport ' tend to migrate to endurance sport' rather than power  events' as the loss of muscle mass is less telling' if your doing a half marathon ' rather than the 400 m hurdles


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> what are you bit ageeing


no disrespect but are you drinking?


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> no disrespect but are you drinking?
> View attachment 23488


im tea total' 

where did you get your personal trainer cert from?' id ask for my money back


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> im tea total'
> 
> where did you get your personal trainer cert from?' id ask for my money back


you can´t even remember your own posts & you write sentences that are like a 10 year old wrote it.


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> which is why those that do sort themselves out tend to go for endurance rather than power sports, as the loss of muscle mass is less important and can even assist


i will refresh your memory. I sent you a link about bone density which you should read. Stop it please i feel embarassed for you.


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i will refresh your memory. I sent you a link about bone density which you should read. Stop it please i feel embarassed for you.


im not disputing its benifits to bone density' ' it just im not all that intrested in disscussing it

but then running improves bone density, as does ball room dancing, it not the only way for old folk to improve it ,
damm now im discusing it!
what point are you actually disagreeing with?


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> He said the courses never used it, not that Atlas never did.


no i checked and he definetly said atlas NEVER use one, so your wrong yet again, not as wrong as him, obviously, but still wrong


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well yea, you can hike acxross the artic ice cap if you want, just coz it accessible  doesnt mean many people do it, certainly not old men,
> 
> now dont get me wrong, im a firm beliver, that 50 odd year okd could do it, that they can maibtain a very high level of fitness well into their 60s, just that the people who dothat are from observation of my contemporaries,  a very small % of the whole, even more that once you have let yourself go, its difficult in the extreme to get it back again, your likely to have lost 20lbs of muscle mass by the time your in your 50s if youve  been compartaivly sedimentary for the 20 years or so, just putting on that level of muscle mass can be taxibg in the extreme and take an excesivly long time in your 50s
> 
> which is why those that do sort themselves out tend to go for endurance rather than power sports,  as the loss of muscle mass is less important and can even assist



An obstacle course for an over 50 is a lot more accessible than hiking an ice cap. Because the opportunity is a lot more available. 

This is literally the sort of thing you can enter and do over a weekend.

And they have created a division for 50 plus so old people are obviously doing it.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> An obstacle course for an over 50 is a lot more accessible than hiking an ice cap. Because the opportunity is a lot more available.
> 
> This is literally the sort of thing you can enter and do over a weekend.
> 
> And they have created a division for 50 plus so old people are obviously doing it.


its several thousand miles in circumference,, you cant get more available than that if like 80% of the world population you live north of the equator, i could be there in 4 hours,

how many old people are doing it exactly,? 10, 100, 1000?


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> its several thousand miles in circumference,, you cant get more available than that if like 80% of the world population you live north of the equator, i could be there in 4 hours,
> 
> how many old people are doing it exactly,? 10, 100, 1000?



You can get more available because you can do a spartan obstacle course south of the equator as well as north and you don't have to fly 4 hours to access one. 

The majority of old people can do it. 

For example we don't have figures on how many over 50s play soccer. Doesn't make that a 1% activity.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> its several thousand miles in circumference,, you cant get more available than that if like 80% of the world population you live north of the equator, i could be there in 4 hours,
> 
> how many old people are doing it exactly,? 10, 100, 1000?


I'm pretty sure I can't get to the arctic ice cap in 4 hours. Maybe 4 hours of flight time, but I don't own a private jet, so it'd take quite a bit more than 4 hours.


----------



## stanly stud

maybe if i had a UFO i might make it


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty sure I can't get to the arctic ice cap in 4 hours. Maybe 4 hours of flight time, but I don't own a private jet, so it'd take quite a bit more than 4 hours.





gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty sure I can't get to the arctic ice cap in 4 hours. Maybe 4 hours of flight time, but I don't own a private jet, so it'd take quite a bit more than 4 hours.


but i didnt say you could did i, i didnt mention you at all


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> but i didnt say you could did i, i didnt mention you at all


you Mancs are funny


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> You can get more available because you can do a spartan obstacle course south of the equator as well as north and you don't have to fly 4 hours to access one.
> 
> The majority of old people can do it.
> 
> For example we don't have figures on how many over 50s play soccer. Doesn't make that a 1% activity.


if you dont have figures, it makes it a no % activity. we have one over 50s team in the whole city, i doubt its a    0.1 % activerty


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> if you dont have figures, it makes it a no % activity. we have one over 50s team in the whole city, i doubt its a    0.1 % activerty


in the whole of Manchester? you know every Gym & Tough Mudders in the whole city & sourrounding areas?
I know Germans who do do it & are even trained by a Brit here. You use excuses because you really are an Arm chair warrior (your post)


----------



## stanly stud




----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> in the whole of Manchester? you know every Gym & Tough Mudders in the whole city & sourrounding areas?
> I know Germans who do do it & are even trained by a Brit here. You use excuses because you really are an Arm chair warrior (your post)


i dont live in manchester and we were talkibg about football and i play football with 18 year olds coz,,


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> i dont live in manchester and we were talkibg about football


your profile says Manchester i met a few of your people , scousers , Geordies they amalgimated the RRF Royal regiment of fusiliers together. lot of Mancs in there. Scousers were mainly Kings regt. I know you ..haha


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> your profile says Manchester i met a few of your people , scousers , Geordies they amalgimated the RRF Royal regiment of fusiliers together. lot of Mancs in there. Scousers were mainly Kings regt. I know you ..haha


thats greater Manchester, i live next door to the city of manchester in a city that isnt manchester


----------



## stanly stud

The 2nd 
Battalion was in Celle Germany i knew a few of them including a guy who used to spar & box with the Ex Boxer nigel Benn. he was a Fusilier.


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> thats greater Manchester, i live next door to the city of manchester in a city that isnt manchester


still a manc


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> if you dont have figures, it makes it a no % activity. we have one over 50s team in the whole city, i doubt its a    0.1 % activerty



So how many over 50s  play soccer? How many play bingo?

Without the figures it appears that over 50s don't do anything.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> So how many over 50s  play soccer? How many play bingo?
> 
> Without the figures it appears that over 50s don't do anything.


well they do something,  i can accuratly predict that if they are alive they are dong something, even if its sitting there watching tv

if you want to make more specific claims than that you need figures or your just making things up


----------



## stanly stud

drop bear said:


> So how many over 50s  play soccer? How many play bingo?
> 
> *Without the figures it appears that over 50s don't do anything*.


no he does nothing apart from his armchair & trolling.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

stanly stud said:


> in the whole of Manchester? you know every Gym & Tough Mudders in the whole city & sourrounding areas?
> I know Germans who do do it & are even trained by a Brit here. You use excuses because you really are an Arm chair warrior (your post)


Over-50’s are pretty common in Tough Mudder (and other mud runs) in the US. I walked part of one with an over-80 woman who was doing her second one that weekend. She was an exception, of course, but over 50 isn’t rare at all.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well they do something,  i can accuratly predict that if they are alive they are dong something, even if its sitting there watching tv
> 
> if you want to make more specific claims than that you need figures or your just making things up


You don’t need figures to prove that some people in a group do a specific thing.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well they do something,  i can accuratly predict that if they are alive they are dong something, even if its sitting there watching tv
> 
> if you want to make more specific claims than that you need figures or your just making things up



How many do something? What are the figures?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> but i didnt say you could did i, i didnt mention you at all


What method could you get there in 4 hours? And which Ice Cap are you referring to? I'm looking for flights to greenland, and failing to find any that would take me from the UK to Greenland in 4 hours, not including boarding time, time to get to the airport, time to leave the other airport, and time to get a taxi out to (or walk to or bus or whatever) to the nearest ice cap. The best I could find is a 24 hour flight with a stop in reykjavik. If there's one in iceland, it's only like a 2 hour flight to reykjavik, plus bus time. Assuming that there was a flight available directly when you stated it, since you said you could get there in 4 hours, not that travel time for a planned trip is 4 hours. 

I'm assuming that you're still in the UK though. I think I remember you saying you travel a bit. If you're in, greenland already that's a different story. And if you were in like texas when you posted that, you're way off.


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What method could you get there in 4 hours? And which Ice Cap are you referring to? I'm looking for flights to greenland, and failing to find any that would take me from the UK to Greenland in 4 hours, not including boarding time, time to get to the airport, time to leave the other airport, and time to get a taxi out to (or walk to or bus or whatever) to the nearest ice cap. The best I could find is a 24 hour flight with a stop in reykjavik. If there's one in iceland, it's only like a 2 hour flight to reykjavik, plus bus time. Assuming that there was a flight available directly when you stated it, since you said you could get there in 4 hours, not that travel time for a planned trip is 4 hours.
> 
> I'm assuming that you're still in the UK though. I think I remember you saying you travel a bit. If you're in, greenland already that's a different story. And if you were in like texas when you posted that, you're way off.


greenland? which artic ?
you do know the artic goes all the way round, it a globe! and there is only one


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> You don’t need figures to prove that some people in a group do a specific thing.


no you dont, but thats not what he is doing, he is putting a % on it, but not saying what that % is, other than its greater than, ,,,

that needs data


----------



## stanly stud

gpseymour said:


> Over-50’s are pretty common in Tough Mudder (and other mud runs) in the US. I walked part of one with an over-80 woman who was doing her second one that weekend. She was an exception, of course, but over 50 isn’t rare at all.


i remember a bodybuilding forum i wrote on there was a few guys on there in the US who did competitions military style shooting, timed speed marches...etc.
they loved it. they of course trained differently to a Gym rat. more cross fit type training, kettle bells, rope climbing. cross fit is another competition that older people compete in.


----------



## stanly stud

ok a bit of fun here ..the old guy was an ex pro boxer (can´t remember his name) 
spanked the kid good...hahaha !


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> i remember a bodybuilding forum i wrote on there was a few guys on there in the US who did competitions military style shooting, timed speed marches...etc.
> they loved it. they of course trained differently to a Gym rat. more cross fit type training, kettle bells, rope climbing. cross fit is another competition that older people compete in.


the jury is rather out on cross fit, coz of the terrible lifting technques that abound

i consider you likely to end up very fit with a number of life long skeletal issues,

that and they have special plates made that look a lot heavier than they are, which makes it hard to judge off blury video


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> the jury is rather out on cross fit, coz of the terrible lifting technques that abound
> 
> i consider you likely to end up very fit with a number of life long skeletal issues,


every sport that pushes limits has risks. doing nothing like you has risks.
some of these people are in great shape at an advanced age. more importantly they are enjoying a better quality of life.  I honestly do not know why you are even on here. you are a bitter person who has not reached anything in life so you give only negative vibes out on here.


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> every sport that pushes limits has risks. doing nothing like you has risks.
> some of these people are in great shape at an advanced age. more importantly they are enjoying a better quality of life.  I honestly do not know why you are even on here. you are a bitter person who has not reached anything in life so you give only negative vibes out on here.




we are discussing fitness, i cant see why you cant do that with out making it personal,  but hey ho  it is what it is,,

but,,,, anyway back to topic,,, speed weight lifting, that doesnt require good lifting techniques is a terible idea for a sport, if the purpose of that sport, is to increase the quality of your life, now and going forwards


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> we are discussing fitness, i cant see why you cant do that with out making it personal,  but hey ho  it is what it is,,
> 
> but,,,, anyway back to topic,,, speed weight lifting, that doesnt require good lifting techniques is a terible idea for a sport, if the purpose of that sport, is to increase the quality of your life, now and going forwards


looking at the quality of your posts you are a guy who goes around the threads picking arguements not discussing it. you even wrote on one thread, _well i´m right then  _honestly mate you have no life. do you even train in any martial arts or have you ever trained? Sitting on your arm chair playing with a bullworker is not the same as climbing a rope is it?  The Actor charles bronson was known for his push ups & rope climbing long before cross fit was invented. look it up. he was muscular & ripped. sorry mate but i just can´t take you seriously


----------



## stanly stud

he was as i read 53 here.


----------



## stanly stud

rope climbing, sit ups, push ups between milk crates. well into an advanced age.
Hard Times: How To Become Charles Bronson by Tom Furman – Beyond Strong


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> looking at the quality of your posts you are a guy who goes around the threads picking arguements not discussing it. you even wrote on one thread, _well i´m right then  _honestly mate you have no life. do you even train in any martial arts or have you ever trained? Sitting on your arm chair playing with a bullworker is not the same as climbing a rope is it?  The Actor charles bronson was known for his push ups & rope climbing long before cross fit was invented. look it up. he was muscular & ripped. sorry mate but i just can´t take you seriously


why are we getting into personal attacks,, 

ive got a great life, i had enough money at 50 to retire and spend it doing exactly what i want to do, exactly, it may not be your perfect life but its mine, 

im very fit for a 61 year old, im with in a second of the world record, 100m for a  60 year old, im faster now than the world record for a 61 year old, it was my intent to break it last year, but covid,

this year the record time decreases and im getting faster, just need covid to go and im in the guiness book of world records, 

thats my current fitness goal, whats yours ?


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> why are we getting into personal attacks,,
> 
> ive got a great life, i had enough money at 50 to retire and spend it doing exactly what i want to do, exactly, it may not be your perfect life but its mine,
> 
> im very fit for a 61 year old, im with in a second of the world record, 100m for a  60 year old, im faster now than the world record for a 61 year old, it was my intent to break it last year, but covid,
> 
> this year the record time decreases and im getting faster, just need covid to go and im in the guiness book of world records,
> 
> *thats my current fitness goal, whats yours ?*[/QUOTE]
> 
> My goal should be to not feed trolls like you.
> You are a record breaker...eh? but you wrote you would rather sit in your arm chair with a bullworker. (your words not mine)
> Give you one thing mate you´re entertaining !



anyway i thought you also were going to cycle 300 miles too? or is this another record?


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> anyway i thought you also were going to cycle 300 miles too? or is this another record?


no thats that unlikely to be a record,  though i admit i havent research cycling records, but i really doubt it, its just a nice way to spend a week or so, cycling the canal network,( flat) and my dog can come,

 im doing sprinting coz it only takes up a few minetes of my day and i can do it whilst walking the dog, so it doesnt at all get in the way of my other activities .

so whats your fitness goal for the year ?


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> so whats your fitness goal for the year ?



working on my beach body for the summer. curls for the girls


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> anyway i thought you also were going to cycle 300 miles too? or is this another record?


i see you numerous abilities dont extend to working the quote function?

i spend a big chunk of my life listening( and trying to play) to music, i tend to do things, that multi task with that,
i do exercises,  that if possible dont require me to stand up much, you can do a considerable amount whist sitting down,

when i do stand up, every hour or so, i do some strengh exercises, whilst waiting for the kettle to boil,or on my way back from the toilet.  then i take the dog out and either cycle or sprint train, dependent on my mood and the weather,


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> working on my beach body for the summer. curls for the girls


it was clear from earlier discusion that you were more intrested in asthetics than performance


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> i do exercises, that if possible dont require me to stand up much,



like sleeping? 
I am totally another opinion i train as much as possible standing. 
Clean & press is a great example of a Full body exercise. 
Can even do barbell complex workouts. minimal equipment & trains everything.


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> it was clear from earlier discusion that you were more intrested in asthetics than performance


was a joke..it went over your head bro


----------



## Gerry Seymour

stanly stud said:


> like sleeping?
> I am totally another opinion i train as much as possible standing.
> Clean & press is a great example of a Full body exercise.
> Can even do barbell complex workouts. minimal equipment & trains everything.


I prefer exercises where as much of the body is involved as possible. Standing while doing arm exercises inherently involves some leg muscles (even if only balance muscles), torso, etc.


----------



## stanly stud

these workouts are great for athletes too..


----------



## stanly stud

gpseymour said:


> I prefer exercises where as much of the body is involved as possible. Standing while doing arm exercises inherently involves some leg muscles (even if only balance muscles), torso, etc.


yes i hate the word "Core" but it trains everything. Abs ; lower back as you said legs..etc  all important im Martial arts or any sport.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I prefer exercises where as much of the body is involved as possible. Standing while doing arm exercises inherently involves some leg muscles (even if only balance muscles), torso, etc.


sitting down throwinga short rope round your foot, and pulling with both arms whilst , whilst forcing your leg out  is also close to a full body mov3ment,( after youve done both legs, obviously) and infinetly adjustable

i also do l sits, they do quite a lot too


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> sitting down throwinga short rope round your foot, and pulling with both arms whilst , whilst forcing your leg out  is also close to a full body mov3ment,( after youve done both legs, obviously) and infinetly adjustable
> 
> i also do l sits, they do quite a lot too


The seated exercise actually limits recruitment of the lower core and upper leg muscles (because you're stabilized just below the waist, and perhaps above if leaning back against a chair back). But it does do a good bit more than an isolation exercise.


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> like sleeping?
> I am totally another opinion i train as much as possible standing.
> Clean & press is a great example of a Full body exercise.
> Can even do barbell complex workouts. minimal equipment & trains everything.


i developed my training system whilst i was spending an inordinate  amount of time sat in cars and planes, start doing a clean and jerk in the passageway of a 747 and they get really upset with you, lsits you can get away with


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> i developed my training system whilst i was spending an inordinate  amount of time sat in cars and planes, start doing a clean and jerk in the passageway of a 747 and they get really upset with you, lsits you can get away with


They don't get really upset until you drop the bar at the end.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> The seated exercise actually limits recruitment of the lower core and upper leg muscles (because you're stabilized just below the waist, and perhaps above if leaning back against a chair back). But it does do a good bit more than an isolation exercise.


no it doesnt, try it, you can feel those lower abs, your holding them and just about everything else in max tension as your using absolute max strengh


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> i developed my training system whilst i was spending an inordinate  amount of time sat in cars and planes, start doing a clean and jerk in the passageway of a 747 and they get really upset with you, lsits you can get away with


this is so funny... you have to be trolling ....it´s good people are so polite here. other forums i was on would rip you apart.


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> no it doesnt, try it, you can feel those lower abs, your holding them and just about everything else in max tension as your using absolute max strengh


----------



## stanly stud

people who talk about upper/lower abs  really do not understand what the Rectus abdominis is. It contracts as one sheath of muscle look at it´s  anatomy. when you do any ab exercise it all contracts. 
Rectus abdominis: Origin, insertion, innervation,function | Kenhub


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> this is so funny... you have to be trolling ....it´s good people are so polite here. other forums i was on would rip you apart.


its back to isometrics, you dont axtualy need a resitance at all to develop strengh / muscle, just the ability to recruit enough muscle fibres, to over load the muscle, which takes time to develop your ns


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> its back to isometrics, you dont axtualy need a resitance at all to develop strengh / muscle, just the ability to recruit enough muscle fibres, to over load the muscle


you need a range of motion too. no athlete has ever trained only on isometrics or we can talk about plyometrics?
a sprinter will use plyometrics but he will also do barbell squats.

Plyometrics - Wikipedia


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> this is so funny... you have to be trolling ....it´s good people are so polite here. other forums i was on would rip you apart.


ive told you i multi task 

i had a bus work out, where i spent my 15 minete journey,  trying to bend the safety bars across  the window,, i had to stop that, as i eventualy managed to bend one and they got cross .

now i spend the journey trying to pull one of the holding loops/ handles off the ceiling, not managed that yet, but i feel im getting close


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> you need a range of motion too. no athlete has ever trained only on isometrics or we can talk about plyometrics?
> a sprinter will use plyometrics but he will also do barbell squats.
> 
> , mPlyometrics - Wikipedia


well no you dont, isos work circa 15 degress either side of the point of hold, so you just need to do three in different postions to get a useful range of strengh curve, or 5 if you  can be bothered, which i cant

as it is i tend to do holds in the part of the stengh curve where im weaker


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> well no you dont, isos work circa 15 degress either side of the point of hold, so you just need to do three in different postions to get a useful range of strengh curve,
> 
> as it is a tend to do holds in the part of the stengh curve where im weaker


OK so sprinters do no squats? or Box squats. 
you have never trained seriously. just trolling.


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> ive told you i multi task
> 
> i had a bus work out, where i spent my 15 minete journey,  trying to bend the safety bars across  the window,, i had to stop that, as i eventualy managed to bend one and they got cross .
> 
> now i spend the journey trying to pull one of the holding loops/ handles off the ceiling, not managed that yet, but i feel im getting close


you have the correct picture on your profile. A clown !


----------



## stanly stud

Ben Johnson doing Heavy Box squats. If he juiced or not is irrelevant we are looking at his training.


----------



## stanly stud

this is hardcore....


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> OK so sprinters do no squats? or Box squats.
> you have never trained seriously. just trolling.


well im a world class sprinter in my age group and i dont do them, the how to 
be a successful sprinter training program im working from didnt specify them

and i fail honestly to see what benifit they would give to sprinting ,its fast movement your trying to deveop, not lumbering


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> Ben Johnson doing Heavy Box squats. If he juiced or not is irrelevant we are looking at his training.


but with out the juice he wasnt a world class spinter, this maybe coz he did very heavy squats?,


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> OK so sprinters do no squats? or Box squats.
> you have never trained seriously. just trolling.


a surprising,  well it suprised me, amount of sprint train is upper body strengh,  you just want those legs moving fast, the power come largly from your torso and arms


----------



## stanly stud

anyway this thread is getting a bit off track. I will just leave you this from another Athletics forum. Do you remember this great all round athlete? linford Christie. He did all over weight workouts including heavy squats; plyometric training. 
Linford Christie Squatting (charliefrancis.com)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> greenland? which artic ?
> you do know the artic goes all the way round, it a globe! and there is only one


I'm assuming that's the closest to you. That's why I asked which cap you were referring to. Or are you ignoring the question?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm assuming that's the closest to you. That's why I asked which cap you were referring to. Or are you ignoring the question?


Just to make sure it's clear what I'm asking so you can't weasel out of it. You stated that you could get to the artic ice cap in 4 hours. I want to know where you were, which ice cap you were talking about, and how you could have gotten there in 4 hours from hitting 'post reply' if you needed to.


----------



## stanly stud

check out this man. sitting in an arm chair with a bullworker...no way !


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> anyway this thread is getting a bit off track. I will just leave you this from another Athletics forum. Do you remember this great all round athlete? linford Christie. He did all over weight workouts including heavy squats; plyometric tr
> he said he got it from avocados,?
> 
> 
> Monkey Turned Wolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that's the closest to you. That's why I asked which cap you were referring to. Or are you ignoring the question?
> 
> 
> 
> i kknow americans strugle with geography, but there is ONLY ONE ARTIC.one, just one, a solitary one, less than two
> its a meridian,  not a place in greenland
Click to expand...


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm assuming that's the closest to you. That's why I asked which cap you were referring to. Or are you ignoring the question?


i kknow americans strugle with geography, but there is ONLY ONE ARTIC.one, just one, a solitary one, less than two
its a meridian,  not a place in greenland

how can you not know that?

which artic????????


----------



## stanly stud

getting confused old chap.
Refering to post #150   
Jobby Jobo


----------



## stanly stud

so why did this sparring never take place Jobo?


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> so why did this sparring never take place Jobo?
> View attachment 23496


i invited him to my home for a freindly spar, a meal and few beers, he started pming me with threats of violance, at that point i decided he was unhinged  and that perhaps he wasnt the best person to let near my home
.after that he tirned in to a bit of stalker,  im getting much the same vibe from you


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> i invited him to my home for a freindly spar, a meal and few beers, he started pming me with threats of violance, at that point i decided he was unhinged  and that perhaps he wasnt the best person to let near my home


why would you invite another man , a stranger to your home to "spar" if you prefer sports lying on your back (your words)...ah OK bro what ever floats your boat


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> why would you invite another man , a stranger to your home to "spar" if you prefer sports lying on your back (your words)...ah OK bro what ever floats your boat


he wasnt at that point a stranger, its not uncommon for people on here to neet up to train and socialise,  just i got a bunny boiler, lesion learnt, unless i get an invite to Hawaii


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> i do exercises, that if possible dont require me to stand up much, you can do a considerable amount whist sitting down,


yes i understand now Jobo.   it´s ok mate it´s 2021 now. I take it he was a younger man.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> i kknow americans strugle with geography, but there is ONLY ONE ARTIC.one, just one, a solitary one, less than two
> its a meridian,  not a place in greenland
> 
> how can you not know that?
> 
> which artic????????


Okay, you decided to weasel out anyway. What location within the artic cap would you be able to go hiking in, within 4 hours of you making that post?


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> bunny


was that your name for the guy?


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, you decided to weasel out anyway. What location within the artic cap would you be able to go hiking in, within 4 hours of you making that post?


i. not weasling out im just to busy laughting at you asking which artic ?

id go to norway, thats a country not at all near Greenland


----------



## jobo

stanly stud said:


> yes i understand now Jobo.   it´s ok mate it´s 2021 now. I take it he was a younger man.


im sure homophobic slurs are the best way forward


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> no you dont, but thats not what he is doing, he is putting a % on it, but not saying what that % is, other than its greater than, ,,,
> 
> that needs data



No 1% is a colloquialism. Generally either used for very rich people or bikies.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> No 1% is a colloquialism. Generally either used for very rich people or bikies.


so, in essance you have no idea what the participant number are


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> i. not weasling out im just to busy laughting at you asking which artic ?
> 
> id go to norway, thats a country not at all near Greenland


Cool. So did a quick search. Again, assuming you're in manchester at the moment. The first 3 sites I checked that's a 4 hour flight on its own. So when you include driving/bussing to the airport, boarding, departing, finding an ice cap to hike and getting there, it would take you a fair bit more than 4 hours.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> so, in essance you have no idea what the participant number are



It only has to be one to apply in this case though. Because it is applied to a specific person.


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Cool. So did a quick search. Again, assuming you're in manchester at the moment. The first 3 sites I checked that's a 4 hour flight on its own. So when you include driving/bussing to the airport, boarding, departing, finding an ice cap to hike and getting there, it would take you a fair bit more than 4 hours.


4 hours then like i said,i  only guested thats pretty dam good

nb, you dont have to find AN ice cap,  there is only one flippin ice cap, im not  sure how many times i have to tell you the same thing


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> It only has to be one to apply in this case though. Because it is applied to a specific person.


it only has to ve one person out of millions to count as one % , youve lost me mate


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> 4 hours then like i said,i  only guested thats pretty dam good
> 
> nb, you dont have to find AN ice cap,  there is only one flippin ice cap, im not  sure how many times i have to tell you the same thing


The artic is that area. You were talking about hiking an ice cap. Since you said norway and not greenland (where the only northern ice sheet is) I assumed that you meant an ice cap rather than the ice sheet. In which case there are multiple. Here's a list of some of them in norway. And before you argue about whether those are ice caps or glaciers, read the first paragraph of this.

..now what does any of this have to do with jeet kune do? I think we got a bit sidetracked here, over something very unimportant.


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The artic is that area. You were talking about hiking an ice cap. Since you said norway and not greenland (where the only northern ice sheet is) I assumed that you meant an ice cap rather than the ice sheet. In which case there are multiple. Here's a list of some of them in norway. And before you argue about whether those are ice caps or glaciers, read the first paragraph of this.
> 
> ..now what does any of this have to do with jeet kune do? I think we got a bit sidetracked here, over something very unimportant.


the cap is the top, thats where caps generaly go, there a( note the singular as in one) big ice cap that runs all the way from norway to greenland, and all the other places that cross the artic meridian, jeez mate buy a globe , its flipin round


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> it only has to ve one person out of millions to count as one % , youve lost me mate



Yeah. The one person in question. Either he does obstical corses and is training for that eventuality or he doesn't and Maby better off training something else.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> the cap is the top, thats where caps generaly go, there a( note the singular as in one) big ice cap that runs all the way from norway to greenland, and all the other places that cross the artic meridian, jeez mate buy a globe , its flipin round



How many people walk ice caps?


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> How many people walk ice caps?


,, but my point wasnt that lots do, rather it was available to them if they wanted to much like obstical courses


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> im sure homophobic slurs are the best way forward


yeah but mate...this is not a forum for what you´re looking for.
I am sure there are other forums out there for that


----------



## stanly stud

jobo said:


> im excesivly fit for a 61 one year old, *i just dont waste time on training for an hour when i can get a better result in 5 minutes,  *
> 
> *as for cycling  im currently working my way up to a 300 mile tour, that however is time consuming*, there is no way to train to cycle for 5 hours with out , spending 5 hours cycling


 
Do you seriously read what you post ?


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> the cap is the top, thats where caps generaly go, there a( note the singular as in one) big ice cap that runs all the way from norway to greenland, and all the other places that cross the artic meridian, jeez mate buy a globe , its flipin round



The Earth has two polar ice caps.  One on top in the ArCtic Ocean and the other in the south around the AntarCtic.

They are also referred to as ice sheets and there are also smaller spots can still be referred to as "ice caps".

ice cap

An ice cap is a glacier, a thick layer of ice and snow, that covers fewer than 50,000 square kilometers (19,000 square miles). Glacial ice covering more than 50,000 square kilometers (19,000 square miles) is called an ice sheet.


----------



## jobo

edut


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> The Earth has two polar ice caps.  One on top in the ArCtic Ocean and the other in the south around the AntarCtic.
> 
> They are also referred to as ice sheets and there are also smaller spots can still be referred to as "ice caps".
> 
> ice cap
> 
> An ice cap is a glacier, a thick layer of ice and snow, that covers fewer than 50,000 square kilometers (19,000 square miles). Glacial ice covering more than 50,000 square kilometers (19,000 square miles) is called an ice sheet.


there both on top depending which way up you are when viewing them, the concept that the earth  has the north at the top and soulth at the bottom is a total fabrication ( and what tends to confuse flat earther and you it seem)and just convention that has its roots in the first map makers comibg from the north

but i did specify the artic ice cap, that the one with the north pole,( currently) that sort of rules out the Antarctic  from the discusion, but hell dont let that stop you

i kbow quite a bit about Antarctica , we can discuss that if you like


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> there both on top depending which way up you are when viewing them, the concept that the earth  has the north at the top and soulth at the bottom is a total fabrication ( and what tends to confuse flat earther and you it seem)and just convention that has its roots in the first map makers comibg from the north
> 
> but i did specify the artic ice cap, that the one with the north pole,( currently) that sort of rules out the Antarctic  from the discusion, but hell dont let that stop you
> 
> i kbow quite a bit about Antarctica , we can discuss that if you like



You're the one that said the "ice cap" is "on top" in reference to the Arctic polar ice cap and said there was only one.  Thus my statement and calling it the "top" and referencing the other at the southern end (notice I never called it "the bottom").  There are also many "ice caps" according to National Geographic and not just one (the link).

So, once again be wrong and play semantic games to look smart.

PS:  its the arCtic not the artic.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> You're the one that said the "ice cap" is "on top" in reference to the Arctic polar ice cap and said there was only one.  Thus my statement and calling it the "top" and referencing the other at the southern end (notice I never called it "the bottom").  There are also many "ice caps" according to National Geographic and not just one (the link).
> 
> So, once again be wrong and play semantic games to look smart.
> 
> PS:  its the arCtic not the artic.


but there  is only one artic ice cap???


----------



## Mider

jeff81363 said:


> The Wong Jack Man fight in Oakland is shrouded in mystery, but clearly Bruce Lee was dissatisfied enough with the result that he started to move away from modified wing chun and more toward a converted southpaw
> boxing style. Bruce watched films of Ali in a mirror to develop the right lead. Bruce also studied Robinson, Pep,
> Louis, and Dempsey. Bruce studied books by Dempsey and others, including the United States Navy
> boxing manual. What Bruce Lee did not do was swallow his pride and glove up in some Oakland boxing gym, putting his right lead boxing AGAINST BOXERS. I will grant that Lee could beat any of his own students and hold his own with the likes of Norris, Lewis, and stone. However, the fact remains that Bruce refused to put
> headgear on and box boxers. Since JKD is right lead boxing with eye jabs, side kicks, and a few other techniques thrown in, it seems to me that it should be more reality based.  MMA and the UFC are about as real
> as one can get without athletes being killed or maimed. For decades I worshipped Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do
> was the martial arts. Now, I view wing chun as a mediocre Chinese style and JKD as part of a long chain of
> developments leading to the first UFC in 1993


You do know that Bruce Lee did have a boxing match which he won...and he trained boxing right?

and that James DeMile who trained under Lee was a boxer...and Jesse Glover was a champion judoka ?

and Dan Inosanto was a champion martial artist too? 

Lee sparred all his students...


----------



## Mider

Bruce Lee actually had multiple boxers as his students who he beat, he also beat people in bar fights often


----------



## lklawson

and just like that we're back on the cult-of-personality train.


----------



## frank raud

lklawson said:


> and just like that we're back on the cult-of-personality train.


Can't have a discussion about Bruce with hero worship.


----------



## Cynik75

Mider said:


> Bruce Lee actually had multiple boxers as his students who he beat, he also beat people in bar fights often


And died because of Kryptonite in his painkillers.


----------



## Mider

Cynik75 said:


> And died because of Kryptonite in his painkillers.


Huh....you can just research his students lol.


----------



## punisher73

Mider said:


> Huh....you can just research his students lol.



Yep, and not a single "student" of Bruce Lee ever competed or won anything on a large scale.  Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris etc. trained WITH Bruce Lee and were already established martial artists when they met.  Bruce Lee was NOT their instructor.  Many people trained with each other and exchanged ideas back then, which was the case with Lewis and Norris.  Bruce Lee exchanged ideas with Ed Parker and Gene LeBell, but no one over says that they were Bruce's teachers.  It only seems to go the other way when someone came to Bruce to exchange ideas or learn something from him.

What we DO know is that the year after Bruce Lee died, Dan Inosanto took a JKD team to the IKC's (Ed Parker's huge tournament in CA) in 1974 to compete in the Team Black Belt division.  Their first draw was to the BKF "B Team".  Dan Inosanto's team lost 33-0, they didn't even score a SINGLE point.  They never brought another team.


----------



## Mider

punisher73 said:


> Yep, and not a single "student" of Bruce Lee ever competed or won anything on a large scale.  Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris etc. trained WITH Bruce Lee and were already established martial artists when they met.  Bruce Lee was NOT their instructor.  Many people trained with each other and exchanged ideas back then, which was the case with Lewis and Norris.  Bruce Lee exchanged ideas with Ed Parker and Gene LeBell, but no one over says that they were Bruce's teachers.  It only seems to go the other way when someone came to Bruce to exchange ideas or learn something from him.
> 
> What we DO know is that the year after Bruce Lee died, Dan Inosanto took a JKD team to the IKC's (Ed Parker's huge tournament in CA) in 1974 to compete in the Team Black Belt division.  Their first draw was to the BKF "B Team".  Dan Inosanto's team lost 33-0, they didn't even score a SINGLE point.  They never brought another team.


Lol not true, he had boxing champs in the army, and Glover was a national judochamp

look bro I’m not interested in trolls, you are obviously one, blocked


----------



## punisher73

Mider said:


> Lol not true, he had boxing champs in the army, and Glover was a national judochamp
> 
> look bro I’m not interested in trolls, you are obviously one, blocked



So what Judo Championship did Jesse Glover actually win? He won the Pacific Northwest Championship Brown Belt Division.  Not to take away his achievement, but that is much different than competing in an open national championship tournament and claiming he was a national champion.  I would also expect that a student who sparred in a striking match would be dominated by a striker in sparring based on striking. 

To put it another way.  When Gene LeBell sparred Bruce Lee and put Bruce in a headlock and then picked  Bruce up in a fireman's carry and ran around with Bruce on his shoulders we would expect that because it was a grappling match and Bruce Lee was not a grappler.  It was also what inspired Bruce to train with Gene for about 2 years because it was such a weakness in his approach.

What "boxing champions" did Bruce Lee teach long term?  What championships did they win? James Demile claimed he was the Air Force HW boxing champ.  But, there are no records of him competing and winning that title (All Air Force).  Back then, he would have fought for the "All Service" Championship against the other branches.  Most of those guys were Olympic quality or turned pro that competed at that level.  Many years later when Demile was questioned, he talked about that most of his boxing matches were "smokers" against bums and that the other matches were between divisions in Anchorage Alaska.  Demile even stated, "It sounded like I was a good fighter, but to tell the truth the guys I fought were not that good".  So, he may have won something in Alaska, but again it wasn't a title like we are led to believe.  

In the book, "The Tao of Bruce Lee", Joe Lewis told the author that "Bruce didn't spar anybody except for the guys who sucked up to him."


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> Lol not true, he had boxing champs in the army, and Glover was a national judochamp
> 
> look bro I’m not interested in trolls, you are obviously one, blocked


I'm not sure "troll" means "someone who questions my position".


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure "troll" means "someone who questions my position".


No It means someone who lies

i explained “my” position, I mean it’s just Lee’s history...idk how it’s my position

i guess all Lee’s students and their students are just lying, maybe they are just trying to agree with “my” position lol.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> No It means someone who lies


That's not really what it means, either.



> i explained “my” position, I mean it’s just Lee’s history...idk how it’s my position
> 
> i guess all Lee’s students and their students are just lying, maybe they are just trying to agree with “my” position lol.


You made some claims, but they were rather vague assertions. When someone asked you for specifics, you called them a troll. A more productive response would be some additional information to make it clear they are incorrect, if they are.


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> That's not really what it means, either.
> 
> 
> You made some claims, but they were rather vague assertions. When someone asked you for specifics, you called them a troll. A more productive response would be some additional information to make it clear they are incorrect, if they are.


I made pretty specific claims, calling them lies rather then do research to verify is what trolls do in my experience.


----------



## punisher73

gpseymour said:


> That's not really what it means, either.
> 
> 
> You made some claims, but they were rather vague assertions. When someone asked you for specifics, you called them a troll. A more productive response would be some additional information to make it clear they are incorrect, if they are.


yep.


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> Lol not true, he had boxing champs in the army, and Glover was a national judochamp
> 
> look bro I’m not interested in trolls, you are obviously one, blocked


"A national judo champ" Hmm, he was a brown belt and doesn't mention being a national champion in his book. But seeing as someone else said he was, it must be true.


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> "A national judo champ" Hmm, he was a brown belt and doesn't mention being a national champion in his book. But seeing as someone else said he was, it must be true.


Yeah I guess so lol









						Jesse Glover, Bruce Lee’s first student, dies at 77
					

Jesse Glover, the first student of martial arts legend Bruce Lee, died on Wednesday at age 77 after a battle with cancer, according to close friend and past student Steve Smith. Glover, a lifelong Seattlite, used what he learned from...




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> "A national judo champ" Hmm, he was a brown belt and doesn't mention being a national champion in his book. But seeing as someone else said he was, it must be true.


Adam Chan must be lying too...I mean he only knew Glover lol


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> "A national judo champ" Hmm, he was a brown belt and doesn't mention being a national champion in his book. But seeing as someone else said he was, it must be true.


More lies here I suppose...damn everyone’s lying for Lee.


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> More lies here I suppose...damn everyone’s lying for Lee.


So what year(s) was Jesse National champion? Shouldn't take long to confirm with AAU records. Or was it some other organization?


----------



## Cynik75

Mider said:


> You do know that Bruce Lee did have a boxing match which he won...


As a teenager in school. Champion of a school. The lowest level of amateur competition. Against absolute noname.


Mider said:


> he also beat people in bar fights often


1. fighting drunken untrained people is easy
2. Sounds like sociopaths/psychopaths behaviour


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> Yeah I guess so lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesse Glover, Bruce Lee’s first student, dies at 77
> 
> 
> Jesse Glover, the first student of martial arts legend Bruce Lee, died on Wednesday at age 77 after a battle with cancer, according to close friend and past student Steve Smith. Glover, a lifelong Seattlite, used what he learned from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.seattletimes.com


So I guess anyone who says Jesse Glover wasn't a national judo champ is lying. Hmm? Jesse Glover doesn't say he was a national judo champion. This is from his book Bruce Lee between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Ummm, we do all realize Bruce Lee Died 48 years ago, and Jesse Glover died 9 years ago, right


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> So I guess anyone who says Jesse Glover wasn't a national judo champ is lying. Hmm? Jesse Glover doesn't say he was a national judo champion. This is from his book Bruce Lee between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do.


Does he say he wasn’t? Is his student who he knew lying? Just wondering, hmmm


----------



## Mider

Xue Sheng said:


> Ummm, we do all realize Bruce Lee Died 48 years ago, and Jesse Glover died 9 years ago, right


Yes lol


----------



## Mider

Cynik75 said:


> As a teenager in school. Champion of a school. The lowest level of amateur competition. Against absolute noname.
> 
> 1. fighting drunken untrained people is easy
> 2. Sounds like sociopaths/psychopaths behaviour


Really? Lol...says who? Where do you get fighting drunks is easy...guess cops have an easy job huh

Sounds like you’re making excuses

and he beat his students who were champion boxers


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> So what year(s) was Jesse National champion? Shouldn't take long to confirm with AAU records. Or was it some other organization?


Don’t know, you can look it up


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> Don’t know, you can look it up


So your convinced he is, but don't have anything like actual evidence. Sort of like hero worship.

You want me to prove you right? That's not how it works. You make the claim,  back it up.


----------



## punisher73

frank raud said:


> So your convinced he is, but don't have anything like actual evidence. Sort of like hero worship.
> 
> You want me to prove you right? That's not how it works. You make the claim,  back it up.


Careful, when I pointed this out to him I was called a "troll" and he blocked me. 

I even pointed out to Mider WHICH championship Glover won as a brown belt but he still wants to claim that Glover was a National Judo Champion, even though there is no record of it and Glover never claimed that.

Same thing with James Demile.  Mider made the claim that he was a boxing champion, but again there is no proof of that and even Demile in his later years confirmed that at best he might have won a division title in the Air Force between the two bases located there while stationed in Alaska.

Lots of hero worship going on, but again no hard facts to support it.  If you want to say that Bruce Lee was an amazing athlete and a talented martial artist, then I won't argue.  But, when it gets into the realm of Bruce Lee beating all these "champions" to prove he was a real fighter, I can't go along with that.


----------



## Cynik75

This is a link to bullshido investigation of Demile boxing record. There is an answer from himself describing those fights - short, amateur bouts between bored soldiers during long cold winter nights. On the end. James Demile boxing record. -  		 		Bullshido - The Art of Fighting BS


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> Does he say he wasn’t? Is his student who he knew lying? Just wondering, hmmm


There is some seriously challenging logic here. Because Jesse Glover doesn't say he is a national champion, he is?


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says,


Irony personified.


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> Irony personified.


This coming from the guy who thinks everyone’s lying? Ok man lol


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> There is some seriously challenging logic here. Because Jesse Glover doesn't say he is a national champion, he is?


His student and friends did, do you understand English lol?


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> His student and friends did, do you understand English lol?


Again, solid logic on your part. when discussing a person, do we believe the person (who never said he was a national champ, and you have yet to prove otherwise, so he must be) or his students, most of whom were too young to have been around when Jesse was competing. Most of your argument is "other people said he was, so he was". Yet actual proof seems to be a difficult concept for you to understand.


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> This coming from the guy who thinks everyone’s lying? Ok man lol


Lying? No. Exaggerating ? Yes.  Otherwise why is it so hard to find actual proof?  Gene Lebell was the AAU heavyweight champ in 1954 and 1955. That's not me making up things, that's a fact. (You CAN look it up).  Jesse Glover was a national champ? Where can someone look it up?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> His student and friends did, do you understand English lol?


People are sometimes mistaken, even about things we think they ought to know. They hear something that someone else heard second-hand, and it gets messed up along the way. You've decided either Bruce Lee was amazing, or everyone around him was lying. There are a lot of other options in there (including both being true or both being false, among many others).


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> His student and friends did, do you understand English lol?


It's like there is no difference between primary and secondary sources.....oh wait.


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> It's like there is no difference between primary and secondary sources.....oh wait.


And your source is? Oh wait...lol


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> People are sometimes mistaken, even about things we think they ought to know. They hear something that someone else heard second-hand, and it gets messed up along the way. You've decided either Bruce Lee was amazing, or everyone around him was lying. There are a lot of other options in there (including both being true or both being false, among many others).


I think that to think all his students then their students are lying is silly. I’m not a Bruce Lee cultist but many said he was gifted


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> Lying? No. Exaggerating ? Yes.  Otherwise why is it so hard to find actual proof?  Gene Lebell was the AAU heavyweight champ in 1954 and 1955. That's not me making up things, that's a fact. (You CAN look it up).  Jesse Glover was a national champ? Where can someone look it up?


So what, I can’t find every AAU championship winner, funny I believe I left a link. Damn the conspiracy runs deep...


----------



## Mider

frank raud said:


> Again, solid logic on your part. when discussing a person, do we believe the person (who never said he was a national champ, and you have yet to prove otherwise, so he must be) or his students, most of whom were too young to have been around when Jesse was competing. Most of your argument is "other people said he was, so he was". Yet actual proof seems to be a difficult concept for you to understand.


Hold on...I mentioned his students AND Lee’s students, so are you acting dumb now?

also what do his students being young have to do with anything?


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> So what, I can’t find every AAU championship winner, funny I believe I left a link. Damn the conspiracy runs deep...


There is obviously no doubt you are 100% correct and should never be questioned for your depth of knowledge. It is obvious you are so much smarter than anyone else here. I eagerly await your next knowledge dump
 I know I feel smarter just reading your inspired words.


----------



## punisher73

Mider said:


> I think that to think all his students then their students are lying is silly. I’m not a Bruce Lee cultist but many said he was gifted



I know he can't see this reply, but I'm putting it on here for others.

I don't think that they were purposely lying about their background or that their students intentionally did.  I did this with my own instructor.  I heard something from other students and repeated it as fact when it was only partially correct and I was corrected on the information.  No one purposely lied about it, it was a misunderstanding of the information.

I think also that people didn't/don't understand the differences in various competitions and experience levels or what the tournaments meant in the big scheme of things and passed on "bad" information.  Jesse Glover won a big tournament as a brown belt in Judo.  That got turned into he was a national champion.  James Demile won a boxing tournament while in the Air Force and that got turned into he was the Air Force HW Champ.  I have found NO sources from either of these gentleman directly making their claims in regards to national champions, it has always been passed on by others.  Another example of this, one of the guys who used to work for me studied BJJ.  I had other people telling me before I got to know him that he won the BJJ World Championship (IBJJF).  He placed 3rd place in the IBJJF Open Purple Belt Division, don't get me wrong, that is a HUGE accomplishment and one to be very proud of, but it isn't the same as being "THE" BJJ World Champion overall.  But, again most people don't understand the differences.


----------



## punisher73

Unsupported Claim:  Bruce Lee fought and taught many champions who were his students.  Boxing champions in the military and National Judo Champions.

Fact:  There were only 3 students who studied with Bruce Lee were authorized to pass on his JKD tradition.

1) Taky Kimura-no martial arts experience prior to Bruce Lee
2) James Yimm Lee-kung fu experience (not sure what style),
3) Dan Inosanto- kenpo black belt and others

While extraordinary martial artists, none of those three held any championships prior to (or after) studying with Bruce Lee.

Ted Wong held a certificate in both Jun Fan and JKD, but wasn't authorized to teach JKD.  He also had no prior martial arts experience before studying with Bruce Lee and never won any championships.

Back in Seattle, before JKD there was a group of students, which seem to be the focus on the "champion" claim.

Jesse Glover: From his own website, "Seattle NCGF":  _Jesse Glover was born October 15th 1935 in Seattle, Washington. He was Bruce Lee’s first student and assistant instructor. Prior to meeting Bruce, Jesse studied Judo primarily. He excelled as a Judo player, winning many tournaments against higher ranking belts due to his superior technique._ From prior research, Jesse Glover won the Pacific Northwest Championship in the Brown Belt Division.  No claim or record of any national championships.

Also, of note when Glover asked Bruce Lee about teaching, this was the response, _"When I told Bruce that I wanted to teach he said it was okay as long as I didn't call what I was teaching either Jun Fan or Wing Chun". _(Just point that out that he wasn't an instructor in either of Bruce's systems of Jun Fan Kung Fu or JKD).

James Demile: Amborse Academy claims that, "_He (Demile) became the Heavy Weight Champion of the Air Force for two years. He found his aggressiveness as a street fighter worked well in the boxing ring. He was undefeated and won 128 fights."  _In his own words, James Demile never claimed to be HW Champion of the Air Force, but that, "_All I remember was most of my fights were in Fairbanks and they were not only with the Air Force but with the army that was attached to our base. The championship bouts for the different divisions took place in Anchorage. Most of the fights took play during the winter, which was long and cold. Most of us who boxed in our unit did so to keep from having to work on the flightline which was often 50 or 60 below zero. The fights were refered to as "smokers" and were often only three rounds at two minutes a round. We would often fought two or three times in one day depending on how many competitors there were. It sounded like I was a good fighter, but to tell the truth the guys I fought were not that good. They were goldbricks like me who did not want to go outside into the cold. The good fighters were in the Navy and Marines, which we never had to fight. Since I was brought up in an Orphanage I liked to fight. I still have a Neanderthal mentality when it comes to fighting and it was what allowed me to survive, not only in the ring, but in the street. My memory is vague on those years, but I know they were a lot of fun."_

James Demile went on to create "Wing Chun Do" based on his training with Bruce Lee.  Demile and Bruce had a falling out after Demile told some of Bruce's students that what Bruce was teaching wasn't practical.  Bruce confronted Demile about it and that was the last they spoke.  Demile also went on to say that the JKD Bruce purposely left out things that made his art work.  _"In all the years I have known people who trained in anything Bruce taught in his later periods, I have never known them to use the basic concepts as Bruce applied them. This includes Danny Inosanto. I do not mean this in a negative way, only that I feel Bruce cheated a lot of people by leaving out important details he used himself." _

Bruce was VERY worried that someone might learn and be able to beat him.


----------



## drop bear

punisher73 said:


> _"In all the years I have known people who trained in anything Bruce taught in his later periods, I have never known them to use the basic concepts as Bruce applied them. This includes Danny Inosanto. I do not mean this in a negative way, only that I feel Bruce cheated a lot of people by leaving out important details he used himself."_



Yeah. But that is a classic kung fu trope. Where one student learned the "real" secrets. 

I mean for example Dan insanto learned of enough good guys post Bruce Lee to to kind of be like, who cares.


----------



## punisher73

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But that is a classic kung fu trope. Where one student learned the "real" secrets.
> 
> I mean for example Dan insanto learned of enough good guys post Bruce Lee to to kind of be like, who cares



I agree.

I see it all the time in MA's where a student stops learning as an instructor is refining their art.  They don't like the refinements or want to learn something new and then claim that the new stuff wasn't the "real stuff".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> I think that to think all his students then their students are lying is silly. I’m not a Bruce Lee cultist but many said he was gifted


Nobody here has said he wasn't gifted. Someone has questioned specific claims, and pointed out why they take issue with them. Again, you're drawing the false dichotomy of "he's great or they are lying".


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> Nobody here has said he wasn't gifted. Someone has questioned specific claims, and pointed out why they take issue with them. Again, you're drawing the false dichotomy of "he's great or they are lying".


Ok I


frank raud said:


> There is obviously no doubt you are 100% correct and should never be questioned for your depth of knowledge. It is obvious you are so much smarter than anyone else here. I eagerly await your next knowledge dump
> I know I feel smarter just reading your inspired words.


isnt that what yikes saying about yourself ? If you’re so smart why haven’t you disproved his students claims?


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> Nobody here has said he wasn't gifted. Someone has questioned specific claims, and pointed out why they take issue with them. Again, you're drawing the false dichotomy of "he's great or they are lying".


And like I said, when you start calling people who knew Lee and his students liars I start rolling my eyes.

never once said he was great


----------



## drop bear

Mider said:


> And like I said, when you start calling people who knew Lee and his students liars I start rolling my eyes.
> 
> never once said he was great


----------



## frank raud

Mider said:


> Ok I
> 
> isnt that what yikes saying about yourself ? If you’re so smart why haven’t you disproved his students claims?


what it says about my intellect is that I'm forced to use deductive reasoning, common sense and the ability to differentiate between primary and secondary sources of information. You are obviously not limited by such things
 Why haven't I disproved his students claims? I've questioned the claims and raised more than reasonable doubt to the veracity of the statements, as have others. Why haven't you proven them?


----------



## Cynik75

Mider said:


> never once said he was great


Was he? No fighting record, no coach achievements, very little influence (if any at all) on the development of modern hand-to-hand combat (kravmaga and the BJJ/MMA made  the biggest impact). He inspired many kids to learn "karate", but the same way Sly  inspired many to join the army or to be a boxer - does it make Sly soldier or boxer?
Bruce was talented martial artist but I can see nothing why he should be called "great".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> And like I said, when you start calling people who knew Lee and his students liars I start rolling my eyes.
> 
> never once said he was great


And, again, there's such a thing as just being mistaken about specific points.

But go ahead and claim victimhood here. It looks good on you.


----------



## lklawson

Mider said:


> Lol not true, he had boxing champs in the army, and Glover was a national judochamp
> 
> look bro I’m not interested in trolls, you are obviously one, blocked


Toll?


----------



## lklawson

Mider said:


> This coming from the guy who thinks everyone’s lying? Ok man lol


I'm still wondering why you get to decide what is "a 'true' martial artist" or why your heavy emphasis on some sort of training philosophy is more correct than anyone else'.


----------



## lklawson

Mider said:


> And your source is? Oh wait...lol


You want sources for "Judo Gene" LeBell winning the AAU Judo championship?  How many?


----------



## Mider

lklawson said:


> You want sources for "Judo Gene" LeBell winning the AAU Judo championship?  How many?


i do recall posting sources. I mean solves for Jesse Glover lying...you guys seem to have reading issues


----------



## Mider

lklawson said:


> I'm still wondering why you get to decide what is "a 'true' martial artist" or why your heavy emphasis on some sort of training philosophy is more correct than anyone else'.


When did I say I decided? Now yoyre just turning this into a dick measuring contest, not even going to engage you further


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mider said:


> i do recall posting sources. I mean solves for Jesse Glover lying...you guys seem to have reading issues


Verifiable sources. As in one's coming from the organization themselves, or even a specific championship, not someone else with vague information.


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> And, again, there's such a thing as just being mistaken about specific points.
> 
> But go ahead and claim victimhood here. It looks good on you.


I mean you can keep being silly and obfuscating the point I guess you want to fit in. At 36 I honestly don’t care If I fit in.

the point I made is and maybe you’ll get this through your head this time, is that Glovers students and fellow students said he was a judo champion, and others were boxers 

arguing otherwise is pointless unless you can show it’s not true...theres no public AAU judo championship list. There’s articles saying Jesse was a judo champ I guess we ignore those but go with the ones of Lebell? Ok lol...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> I mean you can keep being silly and obfuscating the point I guess you want to fit in. At 36 I honestly don’t care If I fit in.
> 
> the point I made is and maybe you’ll get this through your head this time, is that Glovers students and fellow students said he was a judo champion, and others were boxers
> 
> arguing otherwise is pointless unless you can show it’s not true...theres no public AAU judo championship list. There’s articles saying Jesse was a judo champ I guess we ignore those but go with the ones of Lebell? Ok lol...


There are people who have referred to me as an expert in Karate. Some of them you'd expect to know the facts. I've been introduced (in front of an audience) as a black belt in Karate. I have less than a year of cumulative training in Karate, and have never earned any rank.

People are often mistaken about things, which is why we often want to find documentation of some sort to determine what the reality is.


----------



## lklawson

Mider said:


> i do recall posting sources. I mean solves for Jesse Glover lying...you guys seem to have reading issues


There are "issues" all right.  But not where you seem to think.


Mider said:


> When did I say I decided? Now yoyre just turning this into a dick measuring contest, not even going to engage you further


Your first post, the OP, you specifically wrote "the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind..."  You're deciding what is a "true martial artist" and you don't get to.  Other people believe "true" martial arts is about fighting.  Other's believe it is about experiencing the history of the art.  One person might think the true essence of being a martial artist is Aikido style "bunnies and light" blending, while another might think it is Silat style "stab them in the back while they're peeing."  What is the definition of a "true martial artist?"  There is none.  Personally, I reject bunnies and light, open mind, and most "higher" philosophic ideas about what a martial art/artist is.  Martial comes from "Mars," the Roman god of war and fighting.  Not all goals of fighting is the same across all regions and time periods.  Civilian self defense in the U.S. from the early 20th Century was different from 18th Century dueling in the Carpathian mountains, which was different from ceremonial Swahili fighting from mid-19th Century, which was different from 11th Century Chinese military combat, which was different from 12-th Dynasty Egyptian wrestling.  They had different goals and therefore different vehicles to achieve those goals.  So while the mechanics and basic foundations of fighting are generally pretty much the same, balance, timing, etc., the goals, expression, vehicle, the whole point of what is a martial artist vary wildly even in the same time and place.


----------



## lklawson

Mider said:


> I mean you can keep being silly and obfuscating the point I guess you want to fit in. At 36 I honestly don’t care If I fit in.


Wow.  36 whole years, huh?



Mider said:


> arguing otherwise is pointless unless you can show it’s not true...theres no public AAU judo championship list. There’s articles saying Jesse was a judo champ I guess we ignore those but go with the ones of Lebell? Ok lol...


Again, as has already been mentioned, you don't seem to understand what "primary sources" means.


----------



## Mider

lklawson said:


> Wow.  36 whole years, huh?
> 
> 
> Again, as has already been mentioned, you don't seem to understand what "primary sources" means.


Yeah 36 wow huh lol 

you mean people who knew Glover and his students lol...


----------



## Mider

lklawson said:


> There are "issues" all right.  But not where you seem to think.
> 
> Your first post, the OP, you specifically wrote "the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind..."  You're deciding what is a "true martial artist" and you don't get to.  Other people believe "true" martial arts is about fighting.  Other's believe it is about experiencing the history of the art.  One person might think the true essence of being a martial artist is Aikido style "bunnies and light" blending, while another might think it is Silat style "stab them in the back while they're peeing."  What is the definition of a "true martial artist?"  There is none.  Personally, I reject bunnies and light, open mind, and most "higher" philosophic ideas about what a martial art/artist is.  Martial comes from "Mars," the Roman god of war and fighting.  Not all goals of fighting is the same across all regions and time periods.  Civilian self defense in the U.S. from the early 20th Century was different from 18th Century dueling in the Carpathian mountains, which was different from ceremonial Swahili fighting from mid-19th Century, which was different from 11th Century Chinese military combat, which was different from 12-th Dynasty Egyptian wrestling.  They had different goals and therefore different vehicles to achieve those goals.  So while the mechanics and basic foundations of fighting are generally pretty much the same, balance, timing, etc., the goals, expression, vehicle, the whole point of what is a martial artist vary wildly even in the same time and place.


I think when you keep ignoring what I’ve said you def have reading issues

Again you’re spouting irrelevant nonsense...what’s this to do with you n others calling glovers training partners and students liars?


----------



## Mider

gpseymour said:


> There are people who have referred to me as an expert in Karate. Some of them you'd expect to know the facts. I've been introduced (in front of an audience) as a black belt in Karate. I have less than a year of cumulative training in Karate, and have never earned any rank.
> 
> People are often mistaken about things, which is why we often want to find documentation of some sort to determine what the reality is.


Yes that doesn’t make you an expert...I mean there’s a definition of what an expert is

You’re not saying people are mistaken you're saying a whole group of people lied lol...I think you just want to fit in with the site


----------



## lklawson

Mider said:


> Yeah 36 wow huh lol
> 
> you mean people who knew Glover and his students lol...


No.  That's what's called a Secondary Source.  One example of a Primary Source would be a direct witness to the event(s) in question.



Mider said:


> I think when you keep ignoring what I’ve said you def have reading issues


This is what you've got when I directly quote you?  Do you need a link back to your OP?



Mider said:


> Again you’re spouting irrelevant nonsense...what’s this to do with you n others calling glovers training partners and students liars?


What, that you tried to tell me what a "true martial artist" is?  If it is irrelevant then why did you spout it in the first place?  Just because you are also talking about what Glover may or may not have done doesn't mean that you didn't also make a pronouncement about other stuff as well.  If you don't like what you said, then rescind your your statement about what a "true martial artist" is.


----------



## Mider

lklawson said:


> No.  That's what's called a Secondary Source.  One example of a Primary Source would be a direct witness to the event(s) in question.
> 
> 
> This is what you've got when I directly quote you?  Do you need a link back to your OP?
> 
> 
> What, that you tried to tell me what a "true martial artist" is?  If it is irrelevant then why did you spout it in the first place?  Just because you are also talking about what Glover may or may not have done doesn't mean that you didn't also make a pronouncement about other stuff as well.  If you don't like what you said, then rescind your your statement about what a "true martial artist" is.


can you find a primary source say the AAU records for any champion? I can’t, just news articles. If you could why haven’t you?

this isn’t my thread...so I don’t have an OP per say.

because I can? Actually I’m just repeating what experts say...not what Rokas or a Ramsey Dewey says who have no real ranking in anything...

as I’ve stated many a true martial artist learns from several arts from aikido, wing Chun, judo, karate etc. am I Judging that? No just looking at guys who actually teach or fight like Anderson Silva, Roy Nelson, Gokor, Dan the Wolfman, hell even many of Lee’s students beat each other up sparring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Mider said:


> Yes that doesn’t make you an expert...I mean there’s a definition of what an expert is
> 
> You’re not saying people are mistaken you're saying a whole group of people lied lol...I think you just want to fit in with the site


Yeah, I think you have simply failed to understand the issue. I'm pretty much done trying to help you out. Angry ignorance suits you well.


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## Mider

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I think you have simply failed to understand the issue. I'm pretty much done trying to help you out. Angry ignorance suits you well.


you brought up having no rank yet being thought of as an expert, not me.

You’re posts have no relevant to what I was discussing


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## frank raud

Mider said:


> More lies here I suppose...damn everyone’s lying for Lee.


Can you point out where (time stamp) in this video James Demile states that Jesse was a national judo champ? I hear him say he won tournaments, nobody has argued against that.


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## frank raud

"Prior to meeting Bruce, Jesse studied Judo primarily. He excelled as a Judo player, winning many tournaments against higher ranking belts due to his superior technique."   Jesse Glover.
Hmm, in his book, Jesse doesn't claim to be a national judo champ. On the Seattle Non Classical Gung Fu website, he doesn't make that claim in his autobiography.  Was he a judoka? Yes. Did he win tournaments? Yes. Was he a national judo champ? Apparently he doesn't think so, nor have we seen anything from his contemporaries saying he was. But the word of someone who wasn't born when he was competing should be taken as the gospel truth.


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## lklawson

Mider said:


> can you find a primary source say the AAU records for any champion? I can’t, just news articles. If you could why haven’t you?


Good God Almighty!  Direct witnesses *ARE* considered Primary Sources. Good gravy, you can't honestly be this dense. You must be just arguing to argue at this point.



> this isn’t my thread...so I don’t have an OP per say.


This thread here:




__





						The issue with MMA community
					

I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.  this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson...



					www.martialtalk.com
				






> because I can? Actually I’m just repeating what experts say..


I'm an expert and that's not what I say.



> hell even many of Lee’s students beat each other up sparring.


So do children on the playground.  It doesn't make them good sources to support your claim.


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## frank raud

Mider said:


> Yes that doesn’t make you an expert...I mean there’s a definition of what an expert is
> 
> You’re not saying people are mistaken you're saying a whole group of people lied lol..*.I think you just want to fit in with the site*


Fascinating comment. says everybody else can't read, tells a moderator and staff member he(GP Seymour)just wants to fit in with the site.


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## Mider

frank raud said:


> Fascinating comment. says everybody else can't read, tells a moderator and staff member he(GP Seymour)just wants to fit in with the site.


Right...great argument 

wow I’m floored


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## frank raud

Mider said:


> Right...great argument
> 
> wow I’m floored


Wow, and I'm not even a provincial judo champ.


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## Yanli

jobo said:


> what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?
> 
> , i mean dont get me wrong i thought he was pretty ace when i was 14, but then i sort of grew up and realised he was just a movie actor like john Wayne and mr Eastwood
> 
> it seems an odd thing for a grown man to spend decades of his life worshipping,


  I agree that Bruce lee should not be worshiped, but, no man should. You do have to give credit to his skills, I grew up as well studying his form, I started out with Kung Fu/Wing Chun then went to JKD, and then back to Wing Chun. I personally, would not compare him to the actors as you state, He was a real MA. I did see however, his JKD essentially in many ways follows the same principal as Wing Chun.


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## Yanli

Rusty B said:


> Ramsey Dewey once said in a podcast that he believes he could have beaten Bruce Lee.
> 
> To the Bruce Lee fanboys and, hell, probably to even the average person... that sounds like blasphemy.
> 
> Of course, reality has to set in: we've all seen Ramsey Dewey win fights.  We can't say that about Bruce Lee.
> 
> As to why he never entered the tournaments or any combat sport... I've sure he explained it in a way that's designed to sound like Far East ancient wisdom-babble.  And unless you've got more charisma than a cult leader, it would've been unwise to publicly deconstruct and challenge it... because you'd end up looking bad in front of the world, even if you were right.
> 
> BTW, I remember reading somewhere that he got a CCP everywhere he could possibly get one; because he knew people would try to challenge his reputation as "the man no one can beat."
> 
> Any claim that Bruce Lee could "beat anyone" can be destroyed in three words: show me proof.


  I agree that Bruce Lee's full potential is questionable, but the fact that he did not do any real competition does not truly say anything about his abilities. There are many MA that have no concern or interest in competing or proving ones self through competition.


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