# Wudang defense question



## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

I do a lot of writing that involves different martial arts styles, which I try to depict with at least some degree of accuracy. Being a writer and a student of the arts in real life, it is a subject that comes up again and again in my fiction.

So quick question. If someone trained in Wudang fist style, what would be their defense against someone going for a right hook?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

I think that is a very flawed way to look at it.

First, I don't thing there is a single "Wudang fist style".  There are a number of systems from Wudang area.

Second, no good system says, "this" is how we defend against a type of attack.  Once the word is out, their defenses would be useless.  And it's just a very bad way to structure a curriculum and a methodology.  Combat is fluid and chaotic and largely unpredictable, and how one deals with it needs to be flexible and cannot be nailed down to XYZ.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Interesting.

What kind of writing do you do?

I read a lot and you have peaked my interest.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that is a very flawed way to look at it.
> 
> First, I don't thing there is a single "Wudang fist style".  There are a number of systems from Wudang area.
> 
> Second, no good system says, "this" is how we defend against a type of attack.  Once the word is out, their defenses would be useless.  And it's just a very bad way to structure a curriculum and a methodology.  Combat is fluid and chaotic and largely unpredictable, and how one deals with it needs to be flexible and cannot be nailed down to XYZ.



I thought I was going to get a response like that.
A ) I know there are a number of different systems under any umbrella term. Such was merely to direct the question to one such system that would fall under Wudang.

B ) I'm not an idiot. I am aware of the chaotic nature of uncontrolled environments in self-defense. Even still, someone who has trained under aikido all their life and someone who has trained under Krav Maga, are not going to respond to the same threat in the same way.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that is a very flawed way to look at it.
> 
> First, I don't thing there is a single "Wudang fist style".  There are a number of systems from Wudang area.
> 
> Second, no good system says, "this" is how we defend against a type of attack.  Once the word is out, their defenses would be useless.  And it's just a very bad way to structure a curriculum and a methodology.  Combat is fluid and chaotic and largely unpredictable, and how one deals with it needs to be flexible and cannot be nailed down to XYZ.



I think what he is asking is:

If someone swung at you describe some moves that you would use so that he can use them in his writings.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 8, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> If someone trained in Wudang fist style, what would be their defense against someone going for a right hook?


The best way to answer your question is just to use "common sense". It doesn't matter which MA style that you may train, to deal with a hook, there are 2 major solution.

1. dodge it, or
2. block it.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best way to answer your question is just to use "common sense". It doesn't matter which MA style that you may train, to deal with a hook, there are 2 major solution.
> 
> 1. dodge it, or
> 2. block it.



*sigh* Fair enough.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Interesting.
> 
> What kind of writing do you do?
> 
> I read a lot and you have peaked my interest.



To answer your question before I go, sci-fi and fantasy, chiefly.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Lol.

Let's try this.

You are writing a book and on the book your character studies Wudang.  You are writing a fight scene in which the character is attacked with a right hook.

Post a cool way of defending the hook and countering it in a Wudang manner.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Lol.
> 
> Let's try this.
> 
> ...



That was the intent of the thread, ask the experts who study the system what they would do. And my response is met with apparent refutation of the statement "there are no stupid questions."


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 8, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> That was the intent of the thread, ask the experts who study the system what they would do. And my response is met with apparent refutation of the statement "there are no stupid questions."



I'll be honest, finding someone who studies Wudang Fist techniques is very rare. There are only a few places outside of the Wudang Mountains area that actually teach it, so I doubt you will find anyone here who can give you any definitive answer to your questions. You might be stuck either browsing youtube or just using your imagination based on what you think Wudang Fist looks like.

Sorry we can't be more help to you.

Wudang is weird in that way, as it is one of the most well-known Chinese Martial Arts styles and yet hardly anyone actually practices it. Even those who know very little about Chinese Martial Arts will recognise the name, usually from films like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I'll be honest, finding someone who studies Wudang Fist techniques is very rare. There are only a few places outside of the Wudang Mountains area that actually teach it, so I doubt you will find anyone here who can give you any definitive answer to your questions. You might be stuck either browsing youtube or just using your imagination based on what you think Wudang Fist looks like.
> 
> Sorry we can't be more help to you.



No not at all. I appreciate your response and direction to the best of your ability.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Lol.
> 
> Let's try this.
> 
> ...


Ok, fair enough.  But it's still probably not a good way to look at it.

Different people who each trained in a different system, may very well use the exact same physical combination of movements, in defending against an attack.  In the Chinese methods, the specific combination is not what differentiates one system from another.  Rather, much of it lies in the underlying principles used in powering the techniques, and the specific training methodologies used to develop skill with those principles.  The principles can drive any technique, any combination.  So the combo may be the same, but you might, if you know what to look for, be able to identify a different way of moving, in subtle ways, within that same combination, that reflects the principles and methods of a particular system.  

Now, some systems may have a certain technique that they favor, and it comes to be identified, to a degree, with that system.  But overall, it is really difficult, if not impossible, to say that a system would "typically" respond to a punch in a certain manner, with a certain kind of combination.

If the principles could be understood and described within some fantasy writing, that could be interesting.  But it would take more than a very casual passing familiarity with the system.

I'm not trying to beat down the project.  I am trying to offer a legitimate education on the topic.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

I think your character might be better off with a karate background.  Lol


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## Headhunter (Mar 8, 2017)

As has been said there's no one way to block an attack. You don't seem to like that answer but it's the truth and anyway even with their techniques they may end up doing something totally different to their training that's how fighting works. 

Asking martial artists about what would be cool for a book isn't a great idea since we're all mainly invested in realistic attacks and realism isn't the best for fiction


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> As has been said there's no one way to block an attack.



As one who does this in real life as well. I'm well aware.



Headhunter said:


> You don't seem to like that answer but it's the truth and anyway even with their techniques they may end up doing something totally different to their training that's how fighting works.



Yes, in a real fight, but in a choreographed situation I'm able to depict an ideal scenario for whatever combination of techniques the style teaches.



Headhunter said:


> Asking martial artists about what would be cool for a book isn't a great idea since we're all mainly invested in realistic attacks and realism isn't the best for fiction



Again, also a martial artist but also a fiction writer. I know strict realism isn't best for fiction, especially fantasy and sci-fi that I write. But I also want to grant my work a verisimilitude that comes from my actual experience and that of others. Telling a story is all about weaving truth and fantasy together.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> As one who does this in real life as well. I'm well aware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's gotta be tough to write.  Watch a Jackie Chan movie and take a ten second clip from a fight, and try to describe that in writing in a way that makes it exciting to the reader, reveals the character of a particular system, and furthers the plot of the book.  Tough job there.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> That's gotta be tough to write.  Watch a Jackie Chan movie and take a ten second clip from a fight, and try to describe that in writing in a way that makes it exciting to the reader, reveals the character of a particular system, and furthers the plot of the book.  Tough job there.



Tough but not impossible. Not even unprecedented. There are entire genres in literature and film revolving around the martial arts. As you pointed out, they are used to do all three. The fight scene can be as much a dialogue between two characters revealing themselves to each other and the audience as much as a fun action sequence.


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## clfsean (Mar 8, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> As one who does this in real life as well. I'm well aware.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what is your actual experience then? If you're asking about something you have little to no personal experience on how to handle a thing, how can you write about it sounding even a little versed in it? Wouldn't that be akin to living vicariously through others? Except with an added dimension of exaggerated & imagined response with the mind/body/spirit at being able to write about it with certitude & finality? I'm not knocking you, I'm just pointing out that even fiction when it starts reaching to non-fiction looses ground with people when they realize, they've been bamboozled. 

Inquiring minds and all...


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

clfsean said:


> So what is your actual experience then? If you're asking about something you have little to no personal experience on how to handle a thing, how can you write about it sounding even a little versed in it?



Six years of Karate, three of Kung Fu. I know how to respond to a right hook. I was asking how would someone of one of the Wudang disciplines would since my style is Northern Praying Mantis. I got my answer.

I now regret having asked.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> Six years of Karate, three of Kung Fu. I know how to respond to a right hook. I was asking how would someone of one of the Wudang disciplines would since my style is Northern Praying Mantis. I got my answer.
> 
> I now regret having asked.


Don't regret having asked.  But we can be a tough crowd, we do not impress easily.

Honestly I have contemplated doing the kind of writing you are talking about.  I haven't figured out how to do it in a way that feels authentic to me.  And I'm not a particularly gifted writer.  I keep thinking there may be a good novel deep inside of me, but I haven't figured out yet how to bring it out.

I certainly understand Sean's point, tho.  I have read a couple of novels set in San Francisco, a city in which I have lived for well over a decade, and lived nearby for close to another decade.  I know the city well.  When a character in the story turns from one street onto another street, and as a resident of the city I know that those streets do not cross, and are in completely separated parts of the city, it makes me want to put the book down.  So yeah, when fantasy/fiction pulls elements of non-fiction into it, it needs to be close enough to the truth to be accepted by someone who knows.  Otherwise, it's just bad.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Man, y'all are a tough crowd.

Dude was just asking for a little help and ran into the Great Wall here.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Man, y'all are a tough crowd.
> 
> Dude was just asking for a little help and ran into the Great Wall here.


We are a tough crowd, but we offer an honest education.  This is the stuff that can make him better at what he does, if he embraces the lessons.


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## oaktree (Mar 8, 2017)

Writers usually write from what they know.
For example I am writing about a martial art I do so it's easier to write reactions to it.

When writing about a more esoteric art your options are:
A.research it, you may have to email actual people from say wudang they have email access .
B. Make it up, there really isn't to much difference from say a wudangquan block to say another kungfu style perhaps a different name or term. What makes wudang a bit more challenging is the different branches in styles so just saying wudang is same as saying shaolin or generic karate. 
C. Choosing a more common wushu.
D. Making a wushu up.
I don't see why you can't use the word parry a punch slipped a punch intercept a punch.

Let me take an art I don't know much about and try to give an example.

As a karateka I was matched against a boxer. The boxer threw a right cross, I blocked it with my forearm smashing into his radius breaking the bone, I then follows up with a knife hand to his temple causing my opponent to fall to the mat with a thud.

Hope that helps.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 8, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> So quick question. If someone trained in Wudang fist style, what would be their defense against someone going for a right hook?


Why are you only interested in the counters for hook? Are you also interested in counters for:

- jab,
- cross,
- uppercut,
- front kick,
- side kick,
- hook kick,
- roundhouse kick,
- wrist lock,
- elbow lock,
- shoulder lock,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- foot sweep,
- hip throw,
- ... ?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

Also take into account at Wudang they teach many different styles of Martial arts that could fall under the heading of Wudangquan


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## Buka (Mar 8, 2017)

As an old dog who's been in the Arts for a while, and as someone who's written professionally before, I offer this - it's all about the characters, then the story. Write what you know. Getting caught up on the response to a hook is likely to slow down your writing flow and isn't really important. But if it is to you, okay, is that right hook off the lead right leg, or off a lead left leg?

And make sure your protagonist has a thick skin. You know, so he won't have any regrets.


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## clfsean (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Man, y'all are a tough crowd.
> 
> Dude was just asking for a little help and ran into the Great Wall here.



Nah ... not tough, just not coddling. I can't talk about Wudang, it's not what I do. I can talk about other things. I've touched Praying Mantis so I have ideas about that. But it's not the same as writing about something that I have to ask about, without first hand knowledge. 

And if he does know how to respond to a hook punch (for the punch de jour), then he should know, there's no definitive answer & definitely not a style specific response to the hook, except for "****! Deal with it or get smashed". Your mileage & experience may vary, but I don't know anybody that will say categorically "Oh this is exactly how to deal with a hook punch". 

I would hope he takes the answers given for what they are, rather than what they are perceived to be.


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## clfsean (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I certainly understand Sean's point, tho.  I have read a couple of novels set in San Francisco, a city in which I have lived for well over a decade, and lived nearby for close to another decade.  I know the city well.  When a character in the story turns from one street onto another street, and as a resident of the city I know that those streets do not cross, and are in completely separated parts of the city, it makes me want to put the book down.  So yeah, when fantasy/fiction pulls elements of non-fiction into it, it needs to be close enough to the truth to be accepted by someone who knows.  Otherwise, it's just bad.



I love how Chinatown backs up to TelHi ... <snark>


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

clfsean said:


> I love how Chinatown backs up to TelHi ... <snark>


Yeah, and Valencia does not turn onto Geary.  Not even close.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

The only thing is I don't think he was asking for y'all to teach him how to defend a right hook.

He was asking for technical information on what blocks could be used and their names for that style so that his writing would be technically correct.

To use Flying Cranes analogy.

He asked for the name of two streets in San Francisco that intersect and y'all only told him that for one to know two streets in S.F. one must live in S.F.

Would it have hurt to have just said you could use ?????? technique?

  Lol.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The only thing is I don't think he was asking for y'all to teach him how to defend a right hook.
> 
> He was asking for technical information on what blocks could be used and their names for that style so that his writing would be technically correct.
> 
> ...


Except that in the Chinese methods, it isn't the block or any other technique that defines a system.  It's the engine that drives that block.

Is it still a Lamborghini if you put a lawnmower engine under the hood?  Well kinda, it's still the shell.  but no, not at all when it comes to performance.  If he wants authentic Chinese methods in his story, he needs to understand what makes it authentic.  It's not the shell. It's the engine.

That is what we are trying to help him understand.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I think your character might be better off with a karate background.  Lol


lol nope only if that character is getting beaten up by a Jow Ga Character.  we won't worry about BJJ and Muay Thai.  Your karate character can beat those guys in the beginning of the book lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Man, y'all are a tough crowd.
> 
> Dude was just asking for a little help and ran into the Great Wall here.


It used to be worse lol.  I'm still healing from my bruises when I first joined


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2017)

Here's the thing about getting too specific about techniques...  most readers don't get what's happening, and those that do are liable to pick up on any errors.  I don't recall what book I was reading, but the author described a series of steps and strikes that were in conflict with each other so badly that it made me put the book down, try to walk it, and shrug, because the character would have been dead, or twisted himself into a knot and had no way to generate power.

Instead of hanging everything on the right term from an art you (and many of your readers) don't know -- why not simply establish the guy does Wudang Fist... then not get to finicky about how.  So... something like:
_Jay felt confident his Wudang Fist training would let him handle this guy, as they squared off.  The guy led off with a right hook, and Jay stepped in, blocking and came of the block with a Wudang fist strike._​
I like how Steve Perry, Steven Barnes, J. Michael Reaves, and Rutledge Etheridge (among others) write fights.  On the other end of the scale... check out almost any so-called "men's adventure" (Mack Bolan, etc.) book.  Many get too detailed in fight scenes, whether armed or unarmed.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Don't regret having asked. But we can be a tough crowd, we do not impress easily.



I make no claims to being an expert. If you read my introduction you'll see I call myself "the eternal beginner" for a reason. The one thing I will contest is that what little knowledge of the arts I  do have.



Flying Crane said:


> Except that in the Chinese methods, it isn't the block or any other technique that defines a system.  It's the engine that drives that block.
> 
> Is it still a Lamborghini if you put a lawnmower engine under the hood?  Well kinda, it's still the shell.  but no, not at all when it comes to performance.  If he wants authentic Chinese methods in his story, he needs to understand what makes it authentic.  It's not the shell. It's the engine.
> 
> That is what we are trying to help him understand.



I do understand that. I understand that Wudang is not defined by an individual technique or a form. Every school and style is more than the sum of its parts, a key driving force that all the individual techniques spin off of.

I was simply asking what was the name of one such specific technique in full knowledge that there is more to it than that. I didn't realize that alone was a faux pas so forgive my ignorance.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It used to be worse lol.  I'm still healing from my bruises when I first joined



That doesn't really make me feel better. I already left one MA forum once because of a lack of supporting atmosphere.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why are you only interested in the counters for hook? Are you also interested in counters for:
> 
> - jab,
> - cross,
> ...



Emphasis was on "quick question." Like a little yelp of confirmation for relatively minor information that I nevertheless wanted to sound authentic.

I already got my answer.


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## Steel Accord (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The only thing is I don't think he was asking for y'all to teach him how to defend a right hook.



He is right. That's not what I was asking. My fault for not wording the question correctly.

((Sorry about the multi-posting. Getting these responses in on my phone.))


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## mograph (Mar 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It used to be worse lol.  I'm still healing from my bruises when I first joined


And this is the _friendly_ community!


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 9, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> That doesn't really make me feel better. I already left one MA forum once because of a lack of supporting atmosphere.


Stick with it and it'll get better. This place is actually very supportive.  If you check out the discussions where people post their sparring videos, or techniques, or forms, then you'll see that support.  Not only that but you'll see good advice and good recommendations.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Steel Accord said:


> That doesn't really make me feel better. I already left one MA forum once because of a lack of supporting atmosphere.


I think what happened here is that you unknowingly stumbled into the trap of not knowing much about how the Chinese methods work.  That isn't your fault, most people don't understand it, including a lot who practice them and even many of those who teach them.  

Some of us here do have a better than average understanding of how it works, so when we see comments or statemements that make it clear to us that somebody is misunderstanding things, we kind of can't help but jump in and try to clear things up.

Honestly, the intentions are good.  Some people don't receive the message well, they don't want to consider that their years of training might have been missing something critical or important.  It can be a difficult message for some people to hear, and often people just refuse to hear it.  When that happens, the discussion can become difficult.

Honestly tho, our comments were intended to give you a better understanding of the big picture, if you are interested in realism in your writing, then you ought to look at it in a different way.  We are actually just trying to share, we are trying to help you understand what you need to consider, in your writing, and a lot of research might be required if you want an accurate portrayal.  Or, you might decide you simply need to change the focus of how you portray martial arts in your writing. These are decisions you need to make, we just try to give relevant and honest information.  It's not meant to bully.


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## CB Jones (Mar 9, 2017)

Mad respect for y'all and your method, but this thread has given me a whole new appreciation for karate, boxing, etc...lol.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Mad respect for y'all and your method, but this thread has given me a whole new appreciation for karate, boxing, etc...lol.


I think the same issues are part of good karate and boxing as well.  Honestly, I think most people who train have a fairly shallow understanding of what they are doing.  It can still be very effective, especially if someone is athletic, but there is a deeper level that my impression is most people don't understand.


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