# Wide Kneel & Close Kneel



## seninoniwashi (Aug 31, 2007)

Hiya all,

Just wanted to get your opinions and ideas on the wide kneel and close kneel. I learned them as simple transitionary stances for the occasional use when called for within techniques. I never formally learned a weight distribution ratio.

Has anyone out there learned the "stances" with a formal weight ration or any details?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 31, 2007)

seninoniwashi said:


> Hiya all,
> 
> Just wanted to get your opinions and ideas on the wide kneel and close kneel. I learned them as simple transitionary stances for the occasional use when called for within techniques. I never formally learned a weight distribution ratio.
> 
> Has anyone out there learned the "stances" with a formal weight ration or any details?


The wide kneel shouldn't really be any wider that your basic neutral unless you are exagerating for a reason such as a buckle, or so I am told.:ultracool
Sean


----------



## AvPKenpo (Sep 2, 2007)

seninoniwashi said:


> Hiya all,
> 
> Just wanted to get your opinions and ideas on the wide kneel and close kneel. I learned them as simple transitionary stances for the occasional use when called for within techniques. I never formally learned a weight distribution ratio.
> 
> Has anyone out there learned the "stances" with a formal weight ration or any details?


 
A wide kneel is a lowered nuetral bow, weight distribution being the same 50/50. A close kneel is a lowered foward bow with the weight distribution being 60/40.  Without much elaboration they are used to adjust the height of the strike without leaning, "Back straight to Penetrate."


----------



## seninoniwashi (Sep 3, 2007)

Perfect - just what I needed 
Thanks all!


----------



## Doc (Oct 3, 2007)

seninoniwashi said:


> Hiya all,
> 
> Just wanted to get your opinions and ideas on the wide kneel and close kneel. I learned them as simple transitionary stances for the occasional use when called for within techniques. I never formally learned a weight distribution ratio.
> 
> Has anyone out there learned the "stances" with a formal weight ration or any details?



A wide kneel is defined as a "collasped neutral bow" that maintain the same weight distribution as it does in its uncollapsed form, regardless of aplication because of its anatomical mandates.

The close kneel however, is quite different and weight distribution changes according to its application. When used properly to lower height only, its weight distribution shifts to 50/50. It may shift to 60/40, and may even in some applaication adjust to 40/60.

Huh?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 3, 2007)

Doc said:


> A wide kneel is defined as a "collasped neutral bow" that maintain the same weight distribution as it does in its uncollapsed form, regardless of aplication because of its anatomical mandates.
> 
> The close kneel however, is quite different and weight distribution changes according to its application. When used properly to lower height only, its weight distribution shifts to 50/50. It may shift to 60/40, and may even in some applaication adjust to 40/60.
> 
> Huh?


You aren't held by mandates when you are basing off your opponent.
sean


----------



## MattJ (Oct 3, 2007)

I was taught that both the kneeling stances were to have 50/50 weight distibution as a rule. Although as Doc said, situations may call for adjustment (ie; kneeling _into_ something or _away_ from something as opposed to straight down).


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 3, 2007)

MattJ said:


> I was taught that both the kneeling stances were to have 50/50 weight distibution as a rule. Although as Doc said, situations may call for adjustment (ie; kneeling _into_ something or _away_ from something as opposed to straight down).


Not to mention your momentum in either direction.
sean


----------



## Doc (Oct 3, 2007)

MattJ said:


> I was taught that both the kneeling stances were to have 50/50 weight distibution as a rule. Although as Doc said, situations may call for adjustment (ie; kneeling _into_ something or _away_ from something as opposed to straight down).


Your base understanding of the weight distribution is correct. All other assessments misunderstand the anatomical implications and mandates with regards to the close kneel in function. The base function of the stance is to lower externally unloaded height. This function requires a 50/50 distribution to support the posture relative to skelatal alignment.


----------



## Ray (Oct 3, 2007)

Doc said:


> All other assessments misunderstand the anatomical implications and mandates with regards to the close kneel in function.


Darned...I just love the way you talk! Please teach Brad Marshall everything if he stops by your place, then he can teach me.


----------



## Doc (Oct 4, 2007)

Ray said:


> Darned...I just love the way you talk! Please teach Brad Marshall everything if he stops by your place, then he can teach me.



whatchootalkinboutray?


----------



## IWishToLearn (Oct 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> Your base understanding of the weight distribution is correct. All other assessments misunderstand the anatomical implications and mandates with regards to the close kneel in function. The base function of the stance is to lower externally unloaded height. This function requires a 50/50 distribution to support the posture relative to skelatal alignment.


Doc is there a stance that is designed as a base function to lower an externally loaded height?


----------



## Doc (Oct 4, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> Doc is there a stance that is designed as a base function to lower an externally loaded height?



All of them, dependng on the amount of load. I only make the reference because the posture changes and compensates for load along with a possible change in weight distribution. Sometimes this will cause a stance to materially change weight distribution. Sometimes it will cause an adjustment in posture that does not materially change the stance, but only changes weight distribution. And sometimes load, will cause both to change.


----------



## tellner (Oct 4, 2007)

Lord forgive me, I can't help thinking about Senator Craig and his "wide stance style".


----------



## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2007)

tellner said:


> Lord forgive me, I can't help thinking about Senator Craig and his "wide stance style".


Some one should google his martial arts background! I think you may be on to something:ultracool
Sean


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jan 10, 2008)

AvPKenpo said:


> A wide kneel is a lowered nuetral bow, weight distribution being the same 50/50. A close kneel is a lowered foward bow with the weight distribution being 60/40.  Without much elaboration they are used to adjust the height of the strike without leaning, "Back straight to Penetrate."




Correction both kneel stances are 50/50 .... check Infinite Insights Book 2, Chapter 6, pages 73 thru 81, you'll find answers to your questions there.

RTFM


----------



## seninoniwashi (Jan 23, 2008)

Goldendragon7 said:


> Correction both kneel stances are 50/50 .... check Infinite Insights Book 2, Chapter 6, pages 73 thru 81, you'll find answers to your questions there.
> 
> RTFM


 
Thanks GD! I really need to get a hold of those books.


----------



## Michael Billings (Jan 25, 2008)

Another nice referrant is the wide kneel is a modified ?  stance; and the close kneel is a modified  ?  stance.  One is a modified neutral bow, the other a modified forward bow.  This is a nice easy teaching analogy for lower level students.  When you talk about modifying the weight distribution and load you are talking, I think, about a more fluid application in a specific circumstance as verses the base stance as reflected in Infinite Insights.  At least that is my interpretation ... or misinterpretation.  

-Michael


----------



## MattJ (Jan 26, 2008)

Michael Billings said:


> Another nice referrant is the wide kneel is a modified ? stance; and the close kneel is a modified ? stance. One is a modified neutral bow, the other a modified forward bow. This is a nice easy teaching analogy for lower level students. When you talk about modifying the weight distribution and load you are talking, I think, about a more fluid application in a specific circumstance as verses the base stance as reflected in Infinite Insights. At least that is my interpretation ... or misinterpretation.
> 
> -Michael


 
Again, exactly as I was taught. The wide kneel is a collapsed neutral bow, and the close kneel is a collapsed forward bow.


----------



## Doc (Jan 29, 2008)

Goldendragon7 said:


> Correction both kneel stances are 50/50 .... check Infinite Insights Book 2, Chapter 6, pages 73 thru 81, you'll find answers to your questions there.
> 
> RTFM



Correct, however the forward bow, and close kneel share a significant relationship in application. While it is true the collapsed forward bow/close kneel is indeed 50/50, in application as a pin, the weight distribution reverses itself, and becomes 60 rear / 40 front relative.


----------



## KenpoRick (Jan 29, 2008)

As in Thundering Hammers, Flashing Wings, Destructive Kneel, and every other technique that utilizes the 'Wide-kneel, Close-kneel, Wide-kneel' stance-change pattern to disturb your opponents base, No?
Hi Doc...


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 30, 2008)

Doc said:


> Correct, however the forward bow, and close kneel share a significant relationship in application. While it is true the collapsed forward bow/close kneel is indeed 50/50, in application as a pin, the weight distribution reverses itself, and becomes 60 rear / 40 front relative.


 
Time was, back in the day, we also had to train a "deep kneel", different from wide or close. Does that still exist in the current cirriculum? Or is it an antiquated thingy, kicked to the curb in days of yore?

D.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 30, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Time was, back in the day, we also had to train a "deep kneel", different from wide or close. Does that still exist in the current cirriculum? Or is it an antiquated thingy, kicked to the curb in days of yore?
> 
> D.


If you mean puting your knee directly to the floor, then yes.
Sean


----------



## Doc (Jan 30, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Time was, back in the day, we also had to train a "deep kneel", different from wide or close. Does that still exist in the current cirriculum? Or is it an antiquated thingy, kicked to the curb in days of yore?
> 
> D.



No, they are still there but not seen in the training of stances, which lacks context. They are however, quite prominent in applications.


----------

