# frauds



## Bujingodai (Mar 5, 2004)

OK, I'm a member of the Bujinkan and train with indies as well. So just for the fun of it. I'd like to know who is considered to be the worst of the worst of the fakes. Are there any that you know that are not so bad, how many schools can you name. 
Just to start a new conversation.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 5, 2004)

I will say myself that I have met and trained with alot of losers as well. Some of them even in the Kan. 

In the "Ninja" world. Dux seems to be the centre of alot and alot of studies have centred him so I'd be sceptical but would still want to meet and train with him once to get my own opinion.

Kim, yeah. He's an interesting guy. He has used my name in arguements on his board when I am not even involved LOL. So the feelings mutual. Have never met or trained. Not too miffed about that.

This year when I go down south to train, I am stopping in at 2 schools to meet them. Looking forward to seeing if the slag = what they are really like.

there is alot of negativity. have you ever trained with what would be considered a fraud and found that other than some political views they are pretty good?

Admitted most of the schools I have seen, indie or not move somewhat like a Takamatsuden school. Even when they state they are from waay different lineage. I would state that most of the schools are from ex Kans that didn't agree with something or other. That is what partially drove me away. But I still maintain membership and train within. But I doubt I would ever give up my indie sympathies and not train there either.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 16, 2004)

I don't know that I buy into the whole "fraud" thing.  What makes someone a fraud?  If you are creating false lineages, histories, etc., than that is fraud.  However, if you openly admit that you do not belong to some traditional lineage or art form, but your technique is good and effective, does that make you a fraud?  I don't think so.

I've seen far many more independents that have that ability to defend themselves than I have met in the Bujinkan.  Ultimately, that's what really matters.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2004)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I don't know that I buy into the whole "fraud" thing.  What makes someone a fraud?  If you are creating false lineages, histories, etc., than that is fraud.  However, if you openly admit that you do not belong to some traditional lineage or art form, but your technique is good and effective, does that make you a fraud?  I don't think so.
> 
> I've seen far many more independents that have that ability to defend themselves than I have met in the Bujinkan.  Ultimately, that's what really matters.


I have to agree. I think the secret of any martial art is that there is no secret. Hard work and training will produce good results. The only fraud would be the attempt to discount others because they weren't paying the right guy for lessons.
Sean


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## Karasu Tengu (Mar 16, 2004)

Hey Dave,  you know that is has been proven that I am the biggest fraud of them all.  LOL artyon:  %-}  :idunno:


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## Don Roley (Mar 21, 2004)

Karasu Tengu said:
			
		

> Hey Dave,  you know that is has been proven that I am the biggest fraud of them all.  LOL



As well as being a homophobic bigot.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164472#post164472

But don't worry. I am sure that a little lack of personal integrity will not stop Dave from adding another ninjutsu style to his resume with your help.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 21, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> As well as being a homophobic bigot.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164472#post164472
> 
> But don't worry. I am sure that a little lack of personal integrity will not stop Dave from adding another ninjutsu style to his resume with your help.




My resume? What the hell are you talking about. I don't claim to study all those styles. I help run a board for indies. And I like to meet and train with alot to get my own opinion. Simple as that.


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## Don Roley (Mar 21, 2004)

Of course I don't expect you to admit it. But most of us tend to avoid people who we suspect of lying through their teeth. There are plenty of good instructors out there with reputations for honesty. If you want ninjutsu as it is done in Japan and not from someone that basically takes TKD and adds a hood, there are people like Manaka you can go see. If you don't care if what they do is the same as the ninjutsu you find in Japan, you can train with people like Peytonn Quinn, Vladimir Vasilov, Dan Insanto, etc. But, Dave, as long as they all themselves ninjutsu you take the time and expense to fly out to meet them even when there are quality instructors that you know are telling the truth that are closer and cheaper.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 21, 2004)

Right. I go to Montreal to train with my Bujinkan instructor as well. No just because the have the Ninjutsu brand doesn't secure me. I have lots of groups I have seen that even from an Indie prospective they should be ashamed. So I don't really always disagree with you.
I do like to get different flavours of training yes, but I have taken as many trips to Buj events as Indie events.
I am not a style collector I just like getting my own view of things.

So do you really crop me up with the rest of the losers like AK?

I have also seen many Bujinkan instructors that really suck too. The Bujinkan name ensures nothing unfortunatly.

I have nothing to admit Don.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 23, 2004)

Dave-

You'll have to excuse Mr. Roley.  He's convinced that all non Bujinkan school are not legitimate.  However, understand that by "legitimate", he means "historically accurate."  I typically think of "self-defense capabilities" when determining legitimacy.  We both know of independent instructors who are much more superior "self-defense" wise to that of most Bujinkan instructors.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 23, 2004)

I think Don makes some very valid arguements. I was only concerned really with being lumped in as a style collector, or some super soke.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 24, 2004)

Oh I agree with majority of what Don says.  We just differ on our definitions of legitmacy.


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## Don Roley (Mar 24, 2004)

Actually Jeff,

I consider people who lie frauds. If someone like Rick Tew is open about what he does, I do not consider him a fraud, even if I will say that what he does is very different from what I see listed as ninjutsu in Japan. I will say that if you want ninjutsu as it is done in Japan (since it is a Japanese art) you should not train with Tew. But as long as he is open about what he does he can not be called a fraud.

But if you lie, or make some sort of silly statement and refuse to back it up (like being trained from age three by some mysterious ninja master), then you are a fraud.

So, for the most part I agree with your statement,



> If you are creating false lineages, histories, etc., than that is fraud. However, if you openly admit that you do not belong to some traditional lineage or art form, but your technique is good and effective, does that make you a fraud? I don't think so.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 24, 2004)

That we agree on. I don't see a reason to create a history.


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## Don Roley (Mar 26, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> That we agree on. I don't see a reason to create a history.



Not just a history in terms of something that happened two centuries. I come down hard on people that make claims about what they did but can't prove. If you can't prove it because of some sort of a need for secrecy, you damn well better not be talking about it on- line.

So if someone says they trained with someone, they better be able to back it up.

And I would never train with someone that I had good reason to believe lied in order to look good. _Never._ I have seen many things and said that it looked like suicide to me. But I am not arrogent enough (working on it  :supcool: ) to think I know enough to not make mistakes on whether something is 100% proven for the streets. I know some things will not work, but there may be things I _think_ are good but are not. As the saying goes, it is not the alligators I can see that worries me- it's the ones I _can't_ see that worry me.

So I have to trust the teacher to some extent. If he lies to make himself look good, he will not admit a mistake and learn from it in front of others. I speak from a bit of experience here.


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## gozanryu (Mar 28, 2004)

Hi Don, would you consider one who says things, and later denies them, or one who attacks others, then attacks them whe they respond as a sort of a "liar". I can post some links (I know you like links) to someone who does just that. You do that Don. Why would you come over to this thread and attack Stevie? Really, why? Perhaps because you have a personal problem with him. But, that is not what the thread was about was it, Mr. Hijacker. You are so funny!

Back on topic, I think the "worst" fake would be one who abandons the basic tenets of MA to push an agenda. Example, talk to your students and teach, humility, patience, fielty, etc. Then not represent it in your personal life. Maybe my definition of fake is to "open" here it is: Example of a fake. Hi my name is Ken Sensei of the Daito Ryu and this is my school. I can teach you, and grade you till nidan. When in fact, I was a Daito ryu student for about 5 years, and tripped through a shodan rank, but then gathered a few years of school hopping and opened this joint. Or, lets say a guy got caught Forging Densho's, he would be a fake, the worst kind of fake. :asian:  everybody relax!


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## Don Roley (Mar 28, 2004)

Ken,
I called Steve a bigot because he used the "F- word" and has shown no regrets about it. If he had used the "N-word" I would call him a racist.

I also found it interesting that he took Wayne Muromoto to task for using the term "cheese smelling gaijin" in an article that details some aspects of Japanese behavior towards gaijin, and used that as an excuse to dismiss Muromoto's findings about your style and refuse to share the research he claims to have done.



			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> Back on topic, I think the "worst" fake would be one who abandons the basic tenets of MA to push an agenda. Example, talk to your students and teach, humility, patience, fielty, etc. Then not represent it in your personal life.



Oh you mean someone who takes a haughty tone in his responses on line like 
this?


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## gozanryu (Mar 28, 2004)

Hey Don, I guess your kinda right there. Steve really hasnt shown repentence for his opinion. The "cheese" thing is a little bigger than what you state I think from re-reading that stuff. And the link you post to Phelps Sensie's post seems to point to the other posters arragont attacking haughty tone, than to Phelps tone. As a matter of fact, I posted to that thread asking that the naysayers "prove" there point. . . well you read it... so you know that. You also know the lack of coomon respect you showed in that thread.

"Why a guy who was a legitimate SEAL (I also checked it out with cyberseals.org and received a response that the Shannon is legitimate) would then go on to make so many claims that were almost certainly false is beyond me" 

JD Mills, uh, actually, the claims arent false.

"There was a time the SEALs program was relaxed to bring in more recruits. According to the first generation of SEALS, they believed that a lot of lesser characters got in, who were subsequently weeded out later."
Ken Ku- huh? 

"What rank do you have in the Japanese proficiency exam given by the Japanese goverment."

Don Roley- what? did he ever say he had been "ranked"? answer; NO

Don, lets not BS each other any more OK! You are as guilty as anybody of smack talking. I guess I should take your lead and follow you around to every board and expose your lack of character on every thread you post to. Thats what your doing for Steve, right? I mean, considering that the topic starter of this post DID NOT ask your opinion of Steve.

I would have so much more respect for you as a man if you could stand the test of your own scrutiny. I know you think that you are somehow doing good by smack talking. (even though that flies in the face of your very first Martial teachings) You really should try humility on for size, people might actually like you, rather than just recognize your "highest rank" in Japanese language proficiency, or acknowledge your accumen in Japanese history. You are like a walking Greek tragedy bro. Lighten up, be nice, accept that you can not and will not ever know everything there is to know about every Martial Artist. QUit associating yourself with these name calling pansies. Oh yeah, are you coming to SF this year? I was hoping to hook up with you for a face to face chat.


everybody relax!







			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Ken,
> I called Steve a bigot because he used the "F- word" and has shown no regrets about it. If he had used the "N-word" I would call him a racist.
> 
> I also found it interesting that he took Wayne Muromoto to task for using the term "cheese smelling gaijin" in an article that details some aspects of Japanese behavior towards gaijin, and used that as an excuse to dismiss Muromoto's findings about your style and refuse to share the research he claims to have done.
> ...


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## Don Roley (Mar 29, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> You really should try humility on for size, people might actually like you, rather than just recognize your "highest rank" in Japanese language proficiency, or acknowledge your accumen in Japanese history. You are like a walking Greek tragedy bro. Lighten up, be nice, accept that you can not and will not ever know everything there is to know about every Martial Artist. QUit associating yourself with these name calling pansies.



I love it!!!! Most folks I know would say that the term "pansies" is a case of name calling, so the combination of "name calling pansies" is hypocracy at its best.

And the rest of your message can be translated as, "accept what we say without question even though we have been proven to lie about our Japanese ability, being taught by psycic means and other claims. That way you will be less arrogent."

Well _excuses meeeee_ for pointing out that the emporer has no clothes. I get the same treatment from Frank Dux's guys, the Konigun, the Juko-kai and various other frauds and you think that treating me the same as they did is going to somehow shut me up?


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## gozanryu (Mar 29, 2004)

Don, I think you would be quite suprised by the opinion many of the people you do know have about you. You are a circular argument in the textbook sense. Everybody is wrong but you. Ha! Oh and BTW, I'll ask again my evasive friend.

"Oh yeah, are you coming to SF this year? I was hoping to hook up with you for a face to face chat."


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## Don Roley (Mar 29, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> Don, I think you would be quite suprised by the opinion many of the people you do know have about you.



I know you are never going to give the name of one of these folks. I believe that this was dealt with  by Sharp Phil in one of his articles on internet fraud tactics. Essentially you claim that many people have been backing you up by private e-mail and such, but of course these people will not post themselves and their identities are never given.

And I do not plan on going to SF- why should I? I am here in Japan if you or your teacher desire to stop by.


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## gozanryu (Mar 29, 2004)

I asked about SF because I thought there was (passed?future?) a Tai Kai there. Just trying to shorten the travel distance (I travel to SF for Business occasionally) And as far as Naming names. Be careful, this is one of those places were you often stick your foot in your own mouth. And like wise, let me know if your stateside, I can see a rousing "beer-fest" on the horizon.





			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I know you are never going to give the name of one of these folks. I believe that this was dealt with  by Sharp Phil in one of his articles on internet fraud tactics. Essentially you claim that many people have been backing you up by private e-mail and such, but of course these people will not post themselves and their identities are never given.
> 
> And I do not plan on going to SF- why should I? I am here in Japan if you or your teacher desire to stop by.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 29, 2004)

Don, you are suprised that some people don't like you?

I'm not all that fond of the way you come across. I respect the research that you do but you can be a rather arrogant ******* at times.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 29, 2004)

So I was in effect just naming my name. Is that a start?


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## Don Roley (Mar 29, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> So I was in effect just naming my name. Is that a start?



Yep, and I am impressed with your willingness to step up and say so. But I am not surprised that you think I am arrogent. We are not exactly buddies, after all.

But anyone who hints that people who know me talk behind my back and then refuses to back it up is not honorable in my book. I know your opnion of me, hinting that others will not tell me wha tthey think, but will tell Ken is pretty close to what phil wrote about. I know there are people like Sojobobo, Ninpoopkai and others that say nasty things about me. The thing is, I think that is an honor to be called nasty names by people like the Konigun and Juko-kai with their legal and ethical records.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 29, 2004)

Well I will only call you a nasty name to your face, or keyboard Don.


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## gozanryu (Mar 29, 2004)

Don, how dare you invoke the term "honorable" You don't know the first thing about honor as is evidenced by your personal attacks on Phelps credentials, then your total LACK of honor upon finding you are wrong about some of those things. You did not (do not) have enough "Honor" to honor the truth. You are a pathetic example of honor if this "internet " personality is really you. You have no character buddy. You cant even ADMIT when you are wrong. How can you consider yourself as being honorable. You should be ashamed of yourself you self riteous troll. No matter how much Japanese language and History you study, your character is still up to you to earn.

Your Buddy Phelps, he has Certified Degrees from Prestigious Universities, he served his country honorably in harms way, he is an ordained Priest hmmmmmm, come to think of it Don. List your credentials here so that we may scrutinize them. I think you are hiding something, what, with your failure to Talk with your Soke and Friend on this subject, what is your rank? You have said that Kevin Millis and Dr. Glenn Morris are unqualified to represent your art, perhaps you hold rank above them. I have talked to both of them Don. The smiles on there faces were interesting, to say the least.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> Don, how dare you invoke the term "honorable" You don't know the first thing about honor as is evidenced by your personal attacks on Phelps credentials, then your total LACK of honor upon finding you are wrong about some of those things.



Go ahead and read this post. As you can see, I admited that Phelps did attend BUDs training. But of course, I can't confirm damn near anything else about him. I can't even get you guys to reveal the name of the shihan you claim invited Phleps to Japan to train with Hatsumi. I see the same type of behavior from guys like Frank Dux's front man Sojobow. Talking about things as if they existed but refusing to back those claims up, etc.

But I have to give points to you guys for the viciousness if your personal attacks on your critics.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> You have said that Kevin Millis and Dr. Glenn Morris are unqualified to represent your art, perhaps you hold rank above them. I have talked to both of them Don. The smiles on there faces were interesting, to say the least.



I have never been known for being subtle, so let me say this...

Any hint that Ken has that he talked to Kevin Millis and Glenn Morris about me is a lie plain and simple. He may do like Sojobobo and not actually say it, but he is hinting at it. And I know that he did not.

Dave, you started this thread about training with frauds. I ask you if you want to train with a group like this that lies in order to silence it's critics. Personal integrity seems to mean something to you based on what you ahve said. Are you going to back that up with some sort of action? And if you say you will keep it secret, I will show you exactly how I know Ken is lying.

Please think about it Dave.


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## gozanryu (Mar 30, 2004)

Don, to be clear, I did speak to both of them. (at seperate times) and mentioned that some in the Bujinkan suggested they may not be representative of the art. i did not say I was in a close relationship with them, or had studied with them, or that we are friends. I DID NOT name you because that would have been dishonorable, smack talk. Thats not a secret.
As far as confirming or denying, hmmm. . . what about your troll regarding Bow Sim Mark?
What about your troll attacking his "priesthood"
What about your troll regarding his degrees?

Its no secret that you are lying.

See Don, you still cannot admit you are wrong.

I will give you credit though, I can see you took ownership of the SEAL thing, but I think thats because your own buddies clubbed you with it. I realy don't want to escalate this Don. But, you have bees a real jerk when it comes to Phelps, you disregarded him and his crendintial offhand, like he is some 16 year old, then you talk about honor. . . . I wonder what you would have to say in the reverse of this situation. If you really want to continue on this, you can e-mail, I will call you at the time of your choosing on my dime.


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## Karasu Tengu (Mar 30, 2004)

Don where did I use the F* word?  And where did I use the N* word in other than a journalistic fashion, which btw is still perfectly legal.  Whom did I call the N* word?  Please put up the entire post.  

In my opinion you are a twisted and pathetic little man Don who should spend more time training rather than spending so much time following me (us) around on eboards when someone asks a question on this topic.  But if that's what you need to compensate for maybe a lack of martial skill then good for you I say. I'm happy to help.

It is true, I make no appologies when I point out things I think are wrong.  However, I do and have appologized to people when appropriate.  You're just not one of them.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2004)

Karasu Tengu said:
			
		

> Don where did I use the F* word?



Right here.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164472#post164472

Now you are trying to deny it? They blanked out the word, but you can see what you are saying.

You make a bigoted comment and now are trying to play the innocent. Truely,  you have no honor. But considering that you ahve tried to attack all the critics that point out the problems with your story, that is no surprise.

Especially when you try to twist what I say like this,


			
				Karasu Tengu said:
			
		

> And where did I use the N* word in other than a journalistic fashion, which btw is still perfectly legal.  Whom did I call the N* word?  Please put up the entire post.



This is what I actually wrote,



> I called Steve a bigot because he used the "F- word" and has shown no regrets about it. If he had used the "N-word" I would call him a racist.



Note I used the term "if". 





			
				Gozanryu said:
			
		

> Don, to be clear, I did speak to both of them. (at seperate times) and mentioned that some in the Bujinkan suggested they may not be representative of the art. i did not say I was in a close relationship with them, or had studied with them, or that we are friends. I DID NOT name you because that would have been dishonorable, smack talk. Thats not a secret.



Nope, you are lying. Prove that you talked with them about this.



			
				Gozanryu said:
			
		

> What about your troll attacking his "priesthood"
> What about your troll regarding his degrees?
> 
> Its no secret that you are lying.



Note that you will not give exact quotes or links like I was able to at the top of this post. If you attack someone and make accusations about them enough, someone may beleive it. Ken, you stayed quiet when Steve unjustly called Wayne Muromoto a racist when no one else thought that the term "cheese smelling gaijin" was anything other than a humorous poke at the way some Japanese treat gaijin, and you tried to brand el Guapo a liar his silly little joke that no one else took seriously. You ahve a pattern of attacking the people who disagree with you. That is a big sign of the "***** squad" aspect of a martial arts cult.

You say I am lying, but you know Phelps claims to have been invited to Japan, but refuses so far to give the name of the person who supposably did this. And he claims to speak Japanese fluently, but we know the examples he gives makes native speakers laugh. I could go on about all these false statements that Phelpsmakes, and you have no problem with it and instead try to brand me the liar instead.

If it looks like a Dux and quacks like a Dux......


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## gozanryu (Mar 30, 2004)

Don, you have truelly lost your mind!

"Note that you will not give exact quotes or links like I was able to at the top of this post" OK Don, you provide links and proof to your "proof" of Phelps fraudulent degrees and Military Service.

"You ahve a pattern of attacking the people who disagree with you. That is a big sign of the "***** squad" aspect of a martial arts cult" uh Don, are you not talking about yourself?

"Nope, you are lying. Prove that you talked with them about this" no, your right, I did not have a court reporter present at the time of my meeting(s) SO, you prove that you talked to anyone who can verify any of your claims as to Phelps fraudulent claims. (naturally, we will only accept court affadaivits as legitamate evidence) I guess that means that anything you have ever said is a lie. And as far as that goes, prove that I did'nt.

However, you flat busted Steve. All this time I thought it was the "other" F word. So now, you copy and paste here where I participated in ANY WAY in that BS. Otherwise, type in "Sorry Ken, I was wrong, I was talking about STeve, specifically. I know i "inferred you did it, but that was only to get more mileage out of it. Whoops! Whats a little slander among friends?"
Don, I have said that if I do or say it, I will own it, no matter how painful. I mean that. Do not slander me, please. Don't go there. Your credibilty is suspect enough. When are you going to answer all the questions I asked about you? Scared? A little? And is Tai Kai in SF or not? Are you going if it is? :mp5:


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> Don, you have truelly lost your mind!
> 
> "Note that you will not give exact quotes or links like I was able to at the top of this post" OK Don, you provide links and proof to your "proof" of Phelps fraudulent degrees and Military Service.




Uh, excuse me, but where did I say what you say I did? Trying to twist the conversation again to attack me? I say it again- you say I say something and refuse to post quotes and links BECAUSE I NEVER SAID IT AND YOU KNOW IT. It is just part of your pattern of behavior of attackin gthose that disagree with you.




			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> "Nope, you are lying. Prove that you talked with them about this" no, your right, I did not have a court reporter present at the time of my meeting(s) SO, you prove that you talked to anyone who can verify any of your claims as to Phelps fraudulent claims. (naturally, we will only accept court affadaivits as legitamate evidence) I guess that means that anything you have ever said is a lie. And as far as that goes, prove that I didn't.



Ah yes, "I said it and will not prove it- and you are going to have to prove I am lying." I can prove it, but I want to do it with Dave Gibb first so that he can confirm it and report back here. And note again, you are asking me to prove things that I never claimed. Quite simply put, you made a claim, refused to back it up and that in itself is a sign of lying. The fact that I have something to share with Dave is just icing on the cake.



			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> Do not slander me, please. Don't go there. Your credibilty is suspect enough. When are you going to answer all the questions I asked about you? Scared? A little? And is Tai Kai in SF or not? Are you going if it is? :mp5:



So how come you have no problem with him slandering Wayne Muromoto a racist, attacking Dave Lowry or using hate filled language? You say nothing, and say that I am attacking Phelps for pointing out things like that he said he was fluent in Japanese and proved he was not with his use of the language? Or that a good many of his claims can not be verified? Or that he refuses to provide proof for things like his supposed invitation to Japan? Quess what, if it looks like a Dux and quacks like a Dux, it is probably a Dux. And you guys are acting just like Frank Dux with the same tactics, the same types of claims, etc.

And I am not going to any Bujinkan training in America. Think about it. I live in Japan and you think I would go to America for instruction?

I am only going to provide my credentials as they are relevent to the conversation. They are not relevent and are just your strategy of turning the conversation around and away from yourself. As well as what Phil Elmore wrote when he said this.



> WHO ARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME?
> 
> As I wrote in How To Spot a Virtual Sensei, VTGs and VSs are bullies who believe force is the appropriate solution to every disagreement. Part of the psychology behind this attitude is the logically flawed notion that no criticism is valid unless voiced by someone of higher rank or longer experience. When called on their claims or questioned on their opinions, VTGs and VSs often will demand to know the rank, style, and years of experience possessed by the critic. If this information is provided, the VS or VTG will then dismiss the criticism as coming from someone who is his or her "junior" in the arts. This does not invalidate the criticism, of course  you need not be able to beat someone up, nor need you possess a belt one shade darker, for your opinion to be logically and factually valid  but in the minds of the VS and VTG it is all the rebuttal necessary. Anyone who has ever attended a commercial McDojo has seen this attitude displayed, too, by the small percentage of students strutting about condescending to those whose belts are at least one shade lighter.


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## gozanryu (Mar 30, 2004)

Don, the reason I said to "prove that I am lying" is because you are asking the same thing! I know its circular. (PS I dont know Dave Gibb) You claim(ed) that Phelps was a fraud by saying that he had "lied about many things" you do not have proof of him lying about anything. Period. So what does that make you? And of course you will not give your credentials, or prove any of them. Why? Well, you shouldnt have to, we should take you at face value right? Why should anyone doubt your claims? You said it, it must be true. Thats reasonable right? Exactly, Don. So you think about that a little. I wonder why you didnt apply that thinking to Phelps? Why would you say your Credintials are not rellevent to the purvey of this discussion, but then say the Phelps' are?

"you made a claim, refused to back it up and that in itself is a sign of lying." Don, you did this EXACT thing yourself when you said Phelps was "lying about many things" you are totally incorrigable!

And on your last Homage to Phil, I want to be clear. Are you challenging me Mr. Roley?

And lastly, I thought that since you are the bedrock of the orginization, no Tai Kai would be allowed to transpire without you. Thats all. I want to see you talk like this when your face to face with someone.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 30, 2004)

Don, Ken is correct. I am more familiar with Mr McGovern from the Indie board that I run. I am familiar with Saito ryu in the sense that they are an indie group by mainstream description. What is it that you wish to share anyway?

There are schools I am more familiar with.


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> You claim(ed) that Phelps was a fraud by saying that he had "lied about many things" you do not have proof of him lying about anything. Period.



Anything? I guess one example will be enough.

Phelps claims to be fluent in Japanese. Yet he stated in his article that "Shorinjin" means "men of Shaolin." You ask _any_ person like Tony Kehoe with proven Japanese ability if a fluent person would say that and you will get the answer that no one with real fluency woudl make that statement.

I could go on, and did on another thread. But now the thing is that you lied about talking to Morris and Millis.

Dave, I am talking about the integrity of the senior levels of the Saito ryu. Ken lied about talking to Millis and Morris in an attempt to slime me. Just as McGovern slimed Muromoto as a racist because he dared to say he beleived the Saito ryu was a creation of Mark Saito sr. You stopped associating with groups like the Nindo ryu when their intergrity was proven to be questionable to say the least. Do you want to associate with people that act the same as they?


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> However, you flat busted Steve. All this time I thought it was the "other" F word.



Ken,
Just so that everyone else is clear on this, I want to point out that on _page one_  of this thread I posted the link to McGovern's use of a hate-filled comment. And now you are trying to say that you never even bothered to check that link and see for yourself before you blasted into me in defense of McGovern.

And what they hell do you mean, "And on your last Homage to Phil, I want to be clear. Are you challenging me Mr. Roley?" Challenging you? What kind of twisting do you have to do to pull that out of what I posted?


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> And of course you will not give your credentials, or prove any of them. Why? Well, you shouldnt have to, we should take you at face value right? Why should anyone doubt your claims? You said it, it must be true. Thats reasonable right?



Ok, let us take a look at the above statement. Let me break it down for folks.

Ken asks me what rank I am, etc.

I say that it is not relevent and refuse unless he can show how it is relevent.

Ken in the quote above says that I refuse to back up my claims _because_ I will not make a claim about rank, etc.

So, I won't make any claims about rank, and that puts me in the same class as himself and Phelps who make claims and refuse to back them up.

Does this make sense to anyone outside of the Saito ryu? To me, it sounds like a Frank Dux type of misdirection. If I had said that I feel that the Saito ryu is fraudulant becasue I am......., it would make sense. But I have not. I have not relied on my claims or credentials other than my Japanese ability and studies of Japanese history. My belt rank has nothing to do with the conversation.

But the Saito ryu wants to make it all seem like I need to give rank in order to be taken seriously. Go read the quote by Sharp Phil above.


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## gozanryu (Mar 31, 2004)

Everybody can see through your mis-direction Don. 
What Rank do you Hold?
What syatem of Martial ARts do you hold the Ranking in? What is your educational Background? 
All these questions speak directly ro credibility in this discussion. No way around it.
Prove I lied, expose my lye, as I have yours, and we will have another lesson tp share on acceptance.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 31, 2004)

Ken...

While I often disagree with the tone Don takes, I agree with him in this situation and I feel that the only misdirection now is yours.  It's not up to me to prove your instructor is Legit...

Examine it from this point of view Ken.

You go in for an operation, are lying on the operating table.  The Doctor takes a big whiff of his own anestectic, but does not provide you with any... then he pulls out a hacksaw!  You say "hey, you arent a surgeon!" and he responds "Sure I am!" and you say, "No Prove it!" and he responds "Prove I am not!"

Are you gonna let him operate on you???  

Also... lets list some Credentials here:

I was Army Infantry.
I have an MCSE
Im an Ordained Minister in The Universal Life Church
I'm also a certified forklift operator

Guess those qualifications mean I can teach Johnny-ryu Ninjitsu.  And if you dont believe any of the above PROVE I am lying.

How can you NOT see what Don is saying? STEP OUT of the Conversation and  LOOK man.  Dear lord!  He is absolutley right, that EVEN if all those claims that  Mr Phelps makes are true, what do they have to do with his M.A. skills??... they are "fluff" to pad out his credentials.


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## Karasu Tengu (Mar 31, 2004)

> So how come you have no problem with him slandering Wayne Muromoto a racist, attacking Dave Lowry or using hate filled language?



Don you are a dufas.  You are definitely one to be talking about Slander.  Actually it is called Lible since it is in written format and can be reproduced.  Unless it is stated as one's opinion, which I exressively did.  Isn't that why Mr. Lowery did not provide names in his article?  He was stating it as fact vice opinion and would therefore be subject to all the legal ramifications should someone actually press the issue.  But I guess that what they teach in Budo now days.  

There is no other way to put it.  Not only am I not allowed to comment on things I see as having racist overtones,  I am also not allowed to have a sense of humor as well.  EVERYONE! Including you, goof on Count Dante.  I guess in your world I am not allowed to do that as well.  The matter was discussed with the Administrators of the board and guess what...I'm still here.

BTW as you well know, I am the only one who commented on Wayne and Dave.  Now all of a sudden you claim that Ken and anyone else I know share my opinion.  That is a bold face lie.  Its missleading and fraudulent. You are fast becoming that which you loath and proving it on the boards.

You say I have no honor!  I have plenty of documentation to the contrary and I think you need to take a long hard look in the mirror my friend.  What a copulating bunch of scat.  The bad thing is is that I call someone on thier comments, such as Wayne's, or Dave's actual LACK of investigation in his writing of an article, I am the one who gets hammered for it.  Here in the States we call that Liberalism.

You should really be thanking me Don for it seems I give substance to you sad existance.

Techno- I agree with you.  But, some people never let you step outside of the conversation and when you can these people always bring up the same old tired argument.  It is never about them or thier claims only yours that matter.


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## gozanryu (Mar 31, 2004)

Ok Techno, step outside and view it this way. You see a guys teaching tai chi in the park. You are a Shotokan Karate Kyu rank and a school teacher. You accidentally hear the Sifu say, I studied under Sifu XX when I was in college, and then when I was in Mil service XX I did this, and then later, I went back to school I did this. So you go tell everybody you meet that that man is a liar. Is it reasonable to assume that one of those people might say "what gives you the right to say that" You and I both know that Don's word's are actionable in any US court as libel. If Phelps loses any money over Don's worldwide declarations of his Professional credentials being lies, he is toast. If Don's original angle had been that he sees Phelps as a "Ninjitsu" fraud, that would be one thing, but that was not his angle. His angle (if you like, I can start cutting and pasting) was that Phelps was lying about everything he claims. Well, he wasn&#8217;t. And if you actually do a little reading. Don's accusations REQUIRE him (speaks to credibility) to disclose his A. Credentials (speaks to credibility and character) and B. His areas of expertise in this subject matter (speaks to relevance, credibility) Is it any fun, NO. It is much more fun to talk, then just hope it goes away. The way this thread came to be about Don is simple, he used mis-information as his Major Premise in his argument, therefore, he is required to "prove" the relevance&#8217;s of the "facts" as provided by him. He would lose in court in about 3 minutes and be paying for the rest of his life. Hey, who knows, it could still happen. Don has spoken as an authority on Martial Arts, Martial History, and as a Phelps Historian. Now the burden of proof, within the purvey of THIS discussion, is to prove, or refute the information he has provided as evidence here. Thus the need for his credentials.


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## Kreth (Mar 31, 2004)

Karasu Tengu said:
			
		

> dufas....Lible......exressively......missleading


Might want to chill with the big words until you can spell them... 
 :uhyeah: 

Jeff


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## stephen (Mar 31, 2004)

If I say 1+1=3, I am wrong - no matter my credentials. Just a thought. 


Steve


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 31, 2004)

Just a friendly reminder to keep the subject FRIENDLY.


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ken...
> 
> While I often disagree with the tone Don takes, I agree with him in this situation and I feel that the only misdirection now is yours.  It's not up to me to prove your instructor is Legit...



Thank you for pointing this out.

I honestly fail to see what my rank in the Bujinkan and such has to do with this discussion. Maybe my Japanese ability and years in Japan, but I have proven that before and that is not what is being asked. Why the heck is my military record being asked for? And why is there just no proof for many of the things being stated as "fact" by the other side? Where is Steve going to school for the research he mentions, where is proof that Phelps was in the CIA? 

Note that I have to answer their demands, but they can make claims and don't have to back them up because they ask numerous questions and then demand proof. New tactic that. When you make a claim, instead of backing it up you ask the other person a question and get involved with trying to get them to prove it instead of what you freely claimed without being asked.


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## gozanryu (Mar 31, 2004)

Nice dodge Don.

Answer the questions Don, show some backbone.

Spend some time reading my post, it is quite clear why your credentials are in question. Because you are not believable as an expert witness on this subject. In this post alone, you are asking Phelps to "prove" he was in the CIA. His book is full of facts, photos, dates and times to substantiate his Claims. BTW- Thats called "backing it up" Buddy. Now you must substantiate yours. You claim to be a high ranking Bujinkan member, prove it. You claim to be highly educated. Prove it. You claim to be an expert on wether or not Phelps military carreer is valid. Prove it.

Unless, of course, you cant prove it, or are in jeopardy of being caught in a lie. "Back it Up" don Substantiate YOUR claims. Validate YOUR expertise. It will be good practice for the lawsuit.


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> Unless, of course, you cant prove it, or are in jeopardy of being caught in a lie. "Back it Up" don Substantiate YOUR claims. Validate YOUR expertise. It will be good practice for the lawsuit.



Oh, a legal threat! I am so happy!! :boing2: 

Oh yes, I can get proof if I buy your book, sounds like what Sojobobo would say. Not independently verifiable proof, more of a sales pitch.

Oh, and I never even mentioned that I was in the military or even a highly ranked Bujinkan member, so why do I have to prove it when you make a statement about talking to Kevin Millis and Glen Morris and don't have to prove it?

Misdirection at its best.


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## gozanryu (Mar 31, 2004)

Don, buddy, the lawsuit thing is a joke, of course. In light of the "prove its" and "claims" and "fraudulent" tone of the discussion. Besides, I have to do do-diligence to determine if your worth suing, you know, title search for assets, etc. Anyway, I NEVER said buy a book. I said that there is a book published, with an ISDN number that has FAR MORE proof for Phelps' credentials, than you do against them. Thats all. Now your not mis-derecting, your running for the hills. The truth about you IS coming Don. You are about to be exposed for who you really are. But since you are who you say you are, why are you so reluctant to share the info? LMAO Soon.


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> The truth about you IS coming Don. You are about to be exposed for who you really are. But since you are who you say you are, why are you so reluctant to share the info? LMAO Soon.



Wait a second, I am reluctant to share info about myself according to the above statement, but at the same time I supposably am what I say I am.

If I don't say anything about myself, how can that be a lie. Outside the logic of people desperate to slime a critic, that is.

Everyone outside of the Saito ryu who has chimed in so far has said it as well, my credentials are a non issue. If someone like Dave Gibb or Technopunk tells me there is an aspect I should have to prove, I will listen to them. But the reality is that we are being treated to a classic case of misdirection by people making fruadulant claims. Ken does not want to try to prove his statements about talking to Kevin Millis, etc, so he screams time and time again about me.

People who make claims freely and then refuse to back them up are probably lying. If they don't care to prove their statements, they really should not care if they are treated as lies.


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## gozanryu (Mar 31, 2004)

HaHAHAHAHAHAHAH Don. Explain to US why YOU do not have to substantiate you claims of expertise, but Phelps does. Explain why slanderous smack talk is ok for you, but not for others. Expalin it Don. Dont wait for Gibb or Techno to give you permission. Be a man, stand on your own two feet. No, maybe you had better wait for someone to validate this for you, and hold your hand. How old are you? Here is what I think, I think that when this whole deal started YEARS ago, you thought you would jump on the "bash the fake Ninja" bandwago. Fair enough. But then stretched it into attacking Phelps personally, of course thinking, (praying) he would come and kick your face in like some would for that behavior. Well, as is your nature, you LOVE to talk in cyberspace and share all of your "expertise" You never thought anyone would take you to task on it. Well, guess what? You have been writing checks with your mouth to long. (no wonder you hide in Japan) I do not believe you possess the expertise you say you do. So I ask you to prove it. Quite reasonable considering you are asking Phelps to do the same thing. Now you say you should not have to prove it, we should just accept your ad hominem responses as gospel. Why is that? Phelps has proof out there, at least for all his claims realating to career, service etc. You show no proof of your credentials. As you are fully aware, that makes your opinion suspect. I think your opinion is just that, opinion. You wouldnt be skirting the issue so vehemently if it wasnt. You would be sharing your Martial and Academic prowess with us, That is your nature as evidenced by your prior posts

" i hold the highest ranking in the Japanese languge"

"when Phelps came to Japan, he didnt check with me"

So, I think it is safe to assume, you are indeed, a paper tiger. Pathetic

How would you like me to empirically prove my conversation with Kevin Millis 11dan in Palm Springs California? Tell you about his impeccable Naginata technique? Tell you what a nice guy he is, estimate his height and weight at that time, oh yeah, I didnt check with you before hand, so it never happened. LOL


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## Cryozombie (Mar 31, 2004)

Hey Don, 

Totaly not to change the subject, but real quick, do you happen to know  Todd Tumaneng?

Thanks.


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## Frank Anford (Mar 31, 2004)

Hi,
 You can call me Frank if you like, and I'm new to this board but not the arts.
 I have been watching this thread amongst others and am curious about a few things being said 
 here if I may just ask and leave it at that....

 1. What is your position in the arts, Don Roley, that make you such an authority and why when confronted with the level of your training or belt level you dance away from thes point blank questions?
 My understanding of the so-called "ninja" arts, as you say you study are still based in your instructors wishes  - as little as I understand I did some google homework...
 (http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/bjk/message01.htm as per the top school master in Japan.)
 states rules against causing trouble on the internet.
 Just because a person is from Japan (are you Japanese?) doesn't mean they know how to make sushi.
 Maybe a sushi chef is supposed to know though. If your being asked what your level of training is in the art that you posture behind I think it's a valid question and you should answer it.



 2. Using credentials to back up what you say is a curious thing sometimes.
 so I am curious if the following post was versed in silliness;
 (Technopunk wrote;-)
 Also... lets list some Credentials here:

 I was Army Infantry. (You could have had a dishonorable discharge with that too. What does a 
 groundpounder learn in a few weeks anyway?)

 I have an MCSE (certified Microsoft software engineer?)

 Im an Ordained Minister in The Universal Life Church (you get this by applying by the internet and it has nothing to do with any education...)

 I'm also a certified forklift operator (perfectly honorable job and the most valid in this group...)

 You were using this as an example of just sillyness yes?

 As you state to "Gozanryu" that it is not up to you to prove an instructor is legit it is up to Don Roley to show how legit his level of training is since he goes against his instructors wishes based on the above link.

 this whole silliness is confusing.. 

 and Technopunk seems to be a greenbelt from his pics on his web but he is at least polite.






 3. Dave Gibb you are a green belt on 09/13/99 as per http://www.geocities.com/ninpol/old/geobook.html
 and listed as a "shodan" on www.geocities.com/remipulwer/BBBofC.html 
 but a "sensei" on http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/bujingodai.htm

 At what rank does a person need to be a "sensei" in the Bujinkan Arts. Shodan??

 Is Don Roley maybe a second dan authority in these arts possibly?
 That would explain why no answer..



 F.A.


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## Nightingale (Mar 31, 2004)

MOD WARNING:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Please review the following post for the official MartialTalk policy on Frauds and Fraud Busting.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8708

Thanks!

-Nightingale
MT MOD


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## Cryozombie (Mar 31, 2004)

Frank Anford said:
			
		

> Hi,
> You can call me Frank if you like, and I'm new to this board but not the arts.
> I have been watching this thread amongst others and am curious about a few things being said
> here if I may just ask and leave it at that....
> ...



HAHA! Yes exactly Frank! I was saying that I can post a bunch of "credentials" that have nothing to do with being a Ninjutsu instructor, and they do not qualify me as one... Thank you for agreeing!  And Yes, although that picture that you posted of me, was from a "Fantasy Photo Shoot" relating to those Rope Bondage pics on the same site, and not related to my Bujinkan Training, I am in fact a "greenbelt" specifically a 7th Kyu.  I have never hidden that and it is in my profile.  

Also, as a friendly warning, that pic that you pulled and posted here has a valid copyright by the photographer, please do not re-post them like that without her permission.  The link to her studio's website is listed under the copyright notice on my site if you would like to purchse prints.  Even tho I am the subject I have to ask her permission when I re-post them as well.  Thanks, and welcome to MT.


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## Don Roley (Apr 1, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> HaHAHAHAHAHAHAH Don. Explain to US why YOU do not have to substantiate you claims of expertise, but Phelps does.



Because Phelps (and you) made claims, and I did not. I refused to let this conversation be pulled away from the subject matter, and you are attacking with real viciousness.

You (and the guy who _just happend_ to join) seem to take the stance that no one can point out problems with Phelps story unless they are worthy enough. I point out that Phelps makes claims of being in the CIA, but there is no independent proof and you asked us to prove Phelps claims by looking at the book he wrote. I can point out that this is exactly like the tactics Sojobobo used when he asked people to look for proof on Frank Dux's web site. So, how does this relate to what rank I hold?

Your's is the typical diversion tactic and angry attack I have come to associate with the lowest level of frauds. If it looks like a Dux and quacks like a Dux.......


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## Bujingodai (Apr 1, 2004)

Frank you are correct. I was a green belt then. My Senseiship is not in the Bujinkan thanks, but I do know people that were yellow belts and 13 then that are 17 and Yondan now, so qualifications are variable I am sure.
I had been a green for some years and was evaluated as I continued training under other teachers than the one who graded me originally.

But good homework


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## Bujingodai (Apr 1, 2004)

I guess it begs further explaination due to the fact I am not a fraud and not lying about any of my past.

I was a green belt for 3 yrs before being evaluated.
I was training in the Bujinkan and Indie simulatainiously
I am presently getting ready for a nidan grading in the Kan
My grade is 4th Dan in another style of which I primarily train

The senseiship was also not something I went after, it happened. Most of the people that know me know that. It was an accident. There was a group then a bigger group and one thing led to another and it worked out. 
I make not false claims, go to www.bujingodai.com 

Its all there.

Honestly I have seen much worse in the department of people being underqualified to teach. I do the best I can.


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## Nightingale (Apr 1, 2004)

I thought "sensei" was an honorific bestowed on a teacher by a student, and that teachers shouldn't refer to themselves as "sensei", at least in the traditional meaning of the term.

What then, is a "senseiship"?


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## Bujingodai (Apr 1, 2004)

I didn't say I wasn't given the title.

pardon me Senseiship, I'm being laman trying to explain something.


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## Nightingale (Apr 1, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I didn't say I wasn't given the title.
> 
> pardon me Senseiship, I'm being laman trying to explain something.



so in your style, a "Senseiship" is something official?  

The way it was explained to me is that "sensei" is not really a formal title, but a description of a relationship between a student and teacher, a word that is supposed to be bestowed by the student, and that it would be a misuse of the word for someone to introduce himself as "Sensei John Doe" or the like.

Does your school use the term differently?


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## MisterMike (Apr 1, 2004)

A definition I have heard of Sensei is "one who has been before". I'm curious where you learned that martial art students give this title to their teacher, and why a person cannot refer to themselves with this title.

TIA


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## stephen (Apr 1, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> A definition I have heard of Sensei is "one who has been before". I'm curious where you learned that martial art students give this title to their teacher, and why a person cannot refer to themselves with this title.
> 
> TIA




It's like me calling myself Steve-san. It's just not done.

Steve


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## Bujingodai (Apr 1, 2004)

First I don't introduce myself as that. Second, one can always make a mistake in ethics. It is just the title that is there.

But thanks for the lesson, it is always good to learn.


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## Karasu Tengu (Apr 1, 2004)

artyon:


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## Nightingale (Apr 1, 2004)

I first had the term explained to me when I was hosting a Japanese exchange student when I was in college.  I had a tournament one weekend, and Yuko came with me because she wanted to watch.  During the middle of the tournament, a gentleman stepped up to the microphone wanting to make some kind of presentation or acknowledgement.  He introduced himself as "Hi, everyone.  I'm Sensei John Doe."  and Yuko started giggling.  I asked her why, and she explained that in Japan, it is rude to call yourself a "sensei" and that the term "sensei" is placed after the name, rather than before, so Mr. Doe would have been "Doe Sensei" had someone else introduced him, but when introducing himself, he should've stuck with "Hi, I'm John Doe" or "Mr. Doe."

It has also been comfirmed multiple times on this forum.  Here's one example from this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=40610&highlight=sensei+correct#post40610



> Titles such as shihan, kyoshi, renshi, hanshi, etc., are used only in written documents pertaining to that person. They are not terms to be used in verbal address, and it is considered impolite in Japan to do so.
> 
> Of course, it is also impolite in Japan to introduce yourself as "Sensei X," or (even more humously) "X Sensei."


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## Karasu Tengu (Apr 1, 2004)

Jeff, how about this one...Binary Four.


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## Don Roley (Apr 1, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I guess it begs further explaination due to the fact I am not a fraud and not lying about any of my past.



Yep, not one lie or dishonorable action. You called yourself sensei, but that is just a mistake, and I think if we shot everyone who made such mistake there would be a lot less martial artists out there.

Before anyone jumps on Dave, I want to point out that he has never acted without dishonor of made claims that he refused to later back up. I disagree with him on a lot of things. For example, I think that people should probably wait until they have menkyo kaiden in ninjutsu and reach age 50 before they start their own style of ninjutsu. But just because Dave does not follow 
_my opinion_ on the matter does not mean I think  anyone should be even hinting that he is a fraud.


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## Bujingodai (Apr 1, 2004)

Well as I had stated, it wasn't my intention to start anything. It just happened, simple as that. That sounds like a very weak explaination, however commonly a series of events will cause a situation in the end. With that being said, I am not stopping what I do. I do intend to continue training so that I have more to offer as the years go on.

But much appreciated of your words.  :asian:


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

Don, by your inferrence, you are suggesting that I have made another profile to support myself!?  Ha, please, don't you know me well enough? I am plenty pushy by mayself. DOn't flatter yourself so mush. You, and I , and anyone else who has a little education, knows your logic id flawed. If you purport yourself an expert, you can be ex[ected to substantiate it with credentials. You are just a coward., and thats OK. Not everybody can admit when they are wrong, or expose who they really are. Techno, even though that pic was ripped, it's good work! She (the Photagrapher) has skills.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 2, 2004)

MOD WARNING:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

This is you 2nd warning

tshadowchaser 
  MT MOD


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

Sorry Mod. MY second warning? Are you saying that I and only I have been less than cheerful in this discussion?

"I am sure that a little lack of personal integrity " DOn Roley"
"Truely, you have no honor" Don Roley



And Don

"I point out that Phelps makes claims of being in the CIA, but there is no independent proof and you asked us to prove Phelps claims by looking at the book he wrote"

with this line of reasoning, there is absolutely NO PROOF that you hold the ranks you say you do in Japanese language. It's not posted here. It has not been verified by an independent. etc.
If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .I think even you can follow me here. So, what I am saying is, he has WAY more proof of his accomplishments available than say, YOU do. If you cannot concede this one poiont, then it is clear that you are arguing for the sake of arguing.


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## Nightingale (Apr 2, 2004)

MT MOD NOTE:

mod warnings posted in threads are directed at the entire thread, not only one individual.  Individual warnings are done through private messages and are generally not made public.

Nightingale
MT MOD


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> You, and I , and anyone else who has a little education, knows your logic id flawed. If you purport yourself an expert, you can be ex[ected to substantiate it with credentials.



Boy, you are really getting vicious. Not to mention playing fast and loose with the truth again.

I have never said I was some sort of expert (straw man fallacy), and the claims I make about my Japanese language ability can be checked at any Japanese consulate. You do not have to go through me, you do not have to visit my web page, you do not to buy my book. You can do it on your own by claling the local consulate. The same goes for me living in Japan for years. Tony Kehoe can verify that he has seen me here for years, various Bujinkan members can say the same, etc.

It is this type of thing that I call independtly verifiable confirmation. And there are numerous things that Phelps, Mark Saito, McGovern and yourself have claimed that no one else can verify in the same manner that my credentials in the language and resident status can.


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

To get back to what Dave was talking about at the beggining of this thread, I now ask you Dave why you would want to train with frauds.

I ask you to remember a quote by humorist Dave Barry. If someone is nice to you and nasty to the waiter, he is not a nice guy.

I am sure that groups like the Saito ryu are friendly and flattering to you Dave. They probably make you feel pretty good. They want you to associate with them and honey gets more flies than viniger.

But have you bothered to see how they act towards anyone who disagrees with them? Is this the type of behavior you want to see in people you associate with? And they are not just yellow belts hiding behind a screen name. They are highly placed guys doing what they do on boards that their leader is a member of and able to see.

Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto, El Guapo-san, etc. If you say their story stinks, they attack with real viciousness. Let me remind you, Muromoto said he did not believe that Saito learned his art from his grandfather as he claims, but offered to look over the research McGovern claims he has and revise his opinion if warrented. Instead of turning over the research, McGovern said that Muromoto hated non-Japanese because he described a common attitude towards gaijin in in an article using the term "Cheese smelling gaijin." But he himself uses terms for homosexuals that are hate filled. And he has tried to deny it here, then he tried to push it away by saying he has never been "politically correct."

Are these the types of people you want to associate with? You stay away from the collective for the same type of stuff. I know they treat you decent, but if you disagree with them, do you think you won't be treated the same way? Even if you never come to that, why train with people who _always_ go on the attack when their egos are pricked?

I would be interested in hearing you answer.


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

Don, I think your use of the term "viscious" is a ploy to catch the Moderators attenton. There is absolutely nothing viscious about my last post. You see. I don't doubt your language proficiency. Your argumantal logic is what I say is flawed. I have already offered to send you a book, free, if you agree to send it back to me. So, your petty argument there is flawed, and false. What you are asking me to do is do-diligence to verify your claims, well, guess what, your own logic would dictate that you do the same. You totally dodged my question and comment.
"If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .I think even you can follow me here. So, what I am saying is, he has WAY more proof of his accomplishments available than say, YOU do. If you cannot concede this one poiont, then it is clear that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. 
Yesterday 05:24 PM 
It is unfortunate that you are so weighed down with your ego. You might actually be able to move forward. You totally wasted your post trying to convince me of something I have already agreed to, several times. You just dont have the personal confidence necessary to approach this fairly. I really feel sorry for you. You are so frightened. What you are calling "independent verification" of you, is exactly what you HAVE NOT done of Phelps. But I will say this, you do a good job of hiding. I really hope that one day you can face yourself.  Viscious Don? Really? You obviously have NO idea what viscious means. You think that if I had VISCIOUS intent towards you, I would be typing to you? You are sadly mistaken there. Do you feel I view you as some sort of threat, or enemy? You are wrong if you do. You would find out rather quickly, and a long time ago, if that is how I felt. Your capacity for self agrandizing is truly amazing. And if you bothered to actually read my posts, you would see that "we" rarely have problems with those who "dissagree" with us, only those who attack us. You personally attacked Shannon Phels Sensei, 10th Dan, I have NEVER done anything like that, ever. And if you actually asked people, in ernest, you might fing you are not the kind of person they want to be associated with. (and me too, most likely)


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

What a long post on just how much of a doody- head I am.

The fact is, Frank Dux also has a book that has pictures in it, etc. So, I do not trust anything like that. Uniforms can be bought, etc.

And let us not forget that in terms of stories, Phelps has made claims of reciving lessons by means of dreams, etc. His claims of fluency and experience with Japan, etc have just fallen flat with everyone who has lived in Japan, etc. So we are not dealing with a person we should trust to do the right thing anymore than Frank Dux.

What I am talking about in terms of independent proof is if I could call the CIA Public Information Office and ask them if Phelps was a former member. Steve McGovern said they would, but that turned out to be false.

And if you want to attack me and ask me to back up claims, there is a thread over at e-budo now for that. You do not have to divert attention away from the subject here anymore. Unless, of course, you intention is to divert attention as Technopunk and others have pointed out.


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> "If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .



The more I think about the above quote, the more alarms go off in my head.

Frank Dux also has photos in his book he says are from his days in the field with the CIA. So you are using the same type of logic he uses. SOF used professionals to prove that most of the photos are fakes. So photos can be faked, and I am not a photography expert.

But the content of what Ken wrote just sets off alarm bells. If Phelps had a picture of him underwater with a submarine, how the heck are we supposed to identify him through a wet suit? And we know he went through SEAL training.

Are we to believe that as a CIA anti-terrorism agent (which I hasten to add the CIA will NOT confirm) he went to Lybia and had pictures of him taken while there? Considering that we are not friendly with them, it seems unbelievable that he would be overt about himself, and a covert operative taking pictures of himself? And how are we to really know that the photos really are of Iraq, Lybia, etc unless they are pretty identifiable land marks like the pyramids of Egypt? How are we to know the Kyber rifles is what he says it is, instead of a stage set? And there is ways of faking photos. Anyone ever see that picture of the guy on top of the World Trade center with the jet coming in behind him?

Oh, and you can by surplus uniforms at swap meets.

I recall that Phelps has a photo of him and Hatsumi on his site and tries to claim that a Bujinkan instructor invited him to Japan and he had a long talk with Hatsumi on the issue. The thing is, the Saito ryu has refused to give the name of this shihan who supposably made the invitation,a nd my friend showed Hatsumi the photo of them together and Hatsumi said he could not remember who the guy was. So, I tend to not beleive the photos people put in books, and the logic of a deep cover operative in lybia taking tourist photos and the like just sets off too many alarm bells in my mind.


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

Don, you REALLY want people to believe that photos of Phelps being commisioned as an officer are PHOTOSHOPPED? Photos of his ordination in RENTED robes? Are you nuts? Hahahahahah you have got to be one of the Strangest cats on this planet.

"So we are not dealing with a person we should trust to do the right thing anymore than Frank Dux."

Who asked you to trust anybody? You asked for proof, there is proof, it is just inconvenient to your argument to face the truth. RENTED UNIFORMS!? LOL I can just imagine a guy flying over to Vietnam as a youth, finding his way into the bush and asking the SF CO if he could possibly have his photo taken at the firebase because he's got to get his rented uniform back stateside! DON. . .  do you really think that everybody but you is stupid? Why are you trolling for the moderator?  A "doody head" did you really just say that? . . .doody head... haha you are as transparent as a pane of glass Don. one more time

"*"If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .I think even you can follow me here. So, what I am saying is, he has WAY more proof of his accomplishments available than say, YOU do. If you cannot concede this one poiont, then it is clear that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. * "

I was kinda getting the idea you are mostly sharp, then you go on this pre-school bent. Do you realize how you sound when you do this.

How old are you Don? WHat is your rank in the Bujinkan 

What are your degrees in?

What Universities did you get them from.

Who is your Sensei?

I ask, because you brought up the point yourself. I, under your rules, must now take the information you will furnish (because you cannot be trusted) and research it. I will do that Don. Give me the list, and I will independently verify each item, as per your request.

"uniforms can be rented"

oh my lord Don, answer the questions for goodness sakes. Quit playing around.


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

Ah, attacks, screaming and misdirection.. Just what I have come to expect from people ike Frank Dux and the Saito ryu.



			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> How old are you Don? WHat is your rank in the Bujinkan
> 
> What are your degrees in?
> 
> ...



And how is this relevent, and when did I make claims? Go ahead and convince Technopunk that my university degree and such is relevent and not a mis-direction ploy. Remember, he called me a jackass, so we are not buddy- buddy. But even he says that you are just trying to divert attention and slag away at me.

Dave Gibb, you see the tactics that they are using. Why would you want to train with people like this? You would be better off training with someone honorable IMO. They may treat you nice, but you see how quickly the degenerate to attacking, screaming and yelling at anyone who dares to disagree with their sales pitch.


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

"Are we to believe that as a CIA anti-terrorism agent (which I hasten to add the CIA will NOT confirm) he went to Lybia and had pictures of him taken while there? Considering that we are not friendly with them, it seems unbelievable that he would be overt about himself, and a covert operative taking pictures of himself? And how are we to really know that the photos really are of Iraq, Lybia, etc unless they are pretty identifiable land marks like the pyramids of Egypt? How are we to know the Kyber rifles is what he says it is, instead of a stage set? And there is ways of faking photos. Anyone ever see that picture of the guy on top of the World Trade center with the jet coming in behind him?"

uh, well, yeah, the Pyramids are visible in the Photos. (you would know that had you looked at the book before speaking)

I dont think you know what the Khyber Rifles is, and its significance. (quick, go google)

Insert foot in mouth Don, The photos are not of Phelps alone, there are photos of him with Mujahadin in Afghanistan, military personnell and equipment in vietnam, Standing next to Iraq road signs etc, You would know that had you taken my no strings attached offer to send you a copy of the flippin book.


"I recall that Phelps has a photo of him and Hatsumi on his site and tries to claim that a Bujinkan instructor invited him to Japan and he had a long talk with Hatsumi on the issue. The thing is, the Saito ryu has refused to give the name of this shihan who supposably made the invitation,a nd my friend showed Hatsumi the photo of them together and Hatsumi said he could not remember who the guy was. So, I tend to not beleive the photos people put in books, and the logic of a deep cover operative in lybia taking tourist photos and the like just sets off too many alarm bells in my mind."


What "friend" might that be Don? Being that I have asked you MANY times to talk to your Buddy, Hatsumi. Oh, I remember, from your other post. Phelps didnt "check in with you" whilst in Japan. LOL

And I am SUPER CURIOUS to here your diverse background and expertise in "deep cover" operations. I am certain you would not comment if you did not possess such expertise as per your own rules. Which reminds me. . . .how about that Military record. I am looking for expertise in that area that would make you qualified to judge veracity of evidence in that area.

Poor Guy, your flailing is laughable

PS- I dont think Dave does train with us. . . you cannot even admit that you DO train hahahahah I am sure Dave is completely abhored by my crazy idea of having you prove who you say you are. How ridiculous!


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Hey Don,
> 
> Totaly not to change the subject, but real quick, do you happen to know  Todd Tumaneng?
> 
> Thanks.



Sorry, no. I am not good with names and not very social with the people in Japan. Does he train here? Do you want me to pass along a message? If you give me a description, I probably can.


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

gozanryu said:
			
		

> uh, well, yeah, the Pyramids are visible in the Photos. (you would know that had you looked at the book before speaking)



The pyramids are in Egypt, and many people have their pictures taken in Egypt. I was talking about areas like Lybia and Iraq.



			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> Insert foot in mouth Don, The photos are not of Phelps alone, there are photos of him with Mujahadin in Afghanistan, military personnell and equipment in vietnam, Standing next to Iraq road signs etc, You would know that had you taken my no strings attached offer to send you a copy of the flippin book.



And IIRC, Frank Dux has photos of him standing next to actors dressed as Afghanis, street signs in Spanish, etc. Not to mention that a jeep parked in a jungle looks the same in Vietnam, Louisana, etc. 



			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> And I am SUPER CURIOUS to here your diverse background and expertise in "deep cover" operations. I am certain you would not comment if you did not possess such expertise as per your own rules. Which reminds me. . . .how about that Military record. I am looking for expertise in that area that would make you qualified to judge veracity of evidence in that area.



So you are saying that no one who is not a CIA agent, etc, is _worthy_ enough to point out that the idea of a deep cover CIA agent taking photos of himself in Lybia is a bit strange? Or ask that there be some way of confirming someone's claims with an independent source? Pretty typical use of the "Who are you to question me" ploy that Sharp Phil took notice of and which I already posted here.



			
				gozanryu said:
			
		

> Poor Guy, your flailing is laughable
> 
> PS- I dont think Dave does train with us. . . you cannot even admit that you DO train hahahahah I am sure Dave is completely abhored by my crazy idea of having you prove who you say you are. How ridiculous!



What a wonderfull example of the depths of your maturity and illustrative of the types of personal attacks you engage in.


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

Give it up Don, at least this ridiculous angle. Now you are on record as inferring Photos you have nevr seen are faked, for you! hahahah Good lord man, maybe you should get some medical attention. You really kinda wandering around in left field by yourself. Oh SURE you were talking about pyramids OTHER than egypt. hahahah LOL DON SNAP OUT OF IT. THE PICS ARE REAL DO YOU WANT TO SEE THEM OR NOT? Then, after you see them, you can comment, and not look so GALL DARNED FOOLISH really man. . .  back up a minute and check yourself. Actors dont shoot at you! You cant fake  Gen. George Patton! You cant fake an Episcopal Bishop ordaining a Priest! You cant fake pictures of "ring out" at BUDS! You cant fake graduation ceremonies at Stanford! You cant fake pictures of the Entire Fu family in China! Man, you are really sliding off the deep end. And to think, all I ever asked of you was to admit that you are wrong about your wretched assumptions about Phelps (conceding the Language and Ninjitsu crap) Thats all, a simple "well, I was wronf, sorry " or just, "sorry Phelps" but no, you digress to "fake uniform" theories. Man, I really didnt think you had it in you. ANd please stop with the "SHarp Phil" thing, you have not proved Phil is an expert in anything other than his own opinion in the purvey of this discussion.
STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

Dave,
Take a look at the last few posts by Ken and ask yourself if these are the types of people you would want to associate with.



> Give it up Don, at least this ridiculous angle. Now you are on record as inferring Photos you have nevr seen are faked, for you! hahahah Good lord man, maybe you should get some medical attention. You really kinda wandering around in left field by yourself. Oh SURE you were talking about pyramids OTHER than egypt. hahahah LOL DON SNAP OUT OF IT. THE PICS ARE REAL DO YOU WANT TO SEE THEM OR NOT? Then, after you see them, you can comment, and not look so GALL DARNED FOOLISH really man. . . back up a minute and check yourself. Actors dont shoot at you! You cant fake Gen. George Patton! You cant fake an Episcopal Bishop ordaining a Priest! You cant fake pictures of "ring out" at BUDS! You cant fake graduation ceremonies at Stanford! You cant fake pictures of the Entire Fu family in China! Man, you are really sliding off the deep end. And to think, all I ever asked of you was to admit that you are wrong about your wretched assumptions about Phelps (conceding the Language and Ninjitsu crap) Thats all, a simple "well, I was wronf, sorry " or just, "sorry Phelps" but no, you digress to "fake uniform" theories. Man, I really didnt think you had it in you. ANd please stop with the "SHarp Phil" thing, you have not proved Phil is an expert in anything other than his own opinion in the purvey of this discussion.
> STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET


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## gozanryu (Apr 2, 2004)

You think I am upset? With this! LOL DOn, you are so funny this evening! Now you say I am attacking Phil? What? Oh Boy Don! I think you are taking this WAY to seriously. You apparently have not spent much time around people who are angry. But, I laud you fluid ability to dance around and never answer ANYTHING. Unfortunatley, I think you really believe no one notices.

"you can rent uniforms"

oh boy. Anyway, you should enjoy the rest of your day. I need to get some sleep. Check back tomorrow for more "vicious" attacks on yourself and poor, defenseless Phil (kidding, Phil)
Maybe you can re-troll for the moderator when you figure out the time difference.

"The pyramids are in Egypt, and many people have their pictures taken in Egypt. I was talking about areas like Lybia and Iraq."


LMAO! thats funny bro! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA i meant, but i mean, but yeah, but, uh....yeah but. . . .   :redcaptur


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Oh, and you can by surplus uniforms at swap meets.



I should have spelled it "buy" instead of "by", but this is the only thing I can find that I wrote on the subject of not trusting a photo of a guy in a uniform. Yet, three times now Ken has made a large quote (supposably by me) that says people can _rent_ uniforms. 

I see that _yet again_ Ken is playing a little fast and loose with the facts again in order to attack me.


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## Seig (Apr 2, 2004)

This thread locked pending Admin review.


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