# Attackers who are high level Martial Artists



## Tony (Apr 11, 2005)

I know we would all like to think we are humble and responsible in the way we use out skills,and that our styles have codes of conduct that prevent individuals from misusing what they have learnt but occasionally some people do sneak through the net!

There are many people with big egos who like to show off and intimidate people with the martial arts skills. We've all probably seen the Karate Kid films and these people do exist in real life. Many times you may hear someone say 'don't mess with me, I'm a black belt'.  And occasionaly even the instructors can turn out to be the one with the ego who like to show off their skills. Luckily i have never met anyone like this.


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## Paul B (Apr 11, 2005)

Not too sure what you're looking for here.


High Level...to me...means not only technical proficiency,but also a kind of spiritual maturity that is noticable with very senior practitioners. I highly doubt you would find anyone like that attacking you out of the blue.

All of the "higher ups" I have met,regardless of style,seem to be the most kind,humble,and truely open-minded people I have ever had the honor of meeting.


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## AnimEdge (Apr 11, 2005)

I think hes talkin about like BB who likes to show off and pick on people, i heard of a group of guys who would go around to bars and start fights with people for the fun of it they seamed to have been pretty good at it to


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## Drifter (Apr 11, 2005)

Avoid the fight, get called a coward, live without lawyers another day. That's my theory on fighting martial artists. You don't need to associate with people who have attitudes like that for any reason, and don't have to take BS like that. 

 Realize that they're missing some of THE BIGGEST parts of Martial Arts. Humility, respect, honor, bravery. None of that can go along with being egotistical, intimidating, or manipulating. All of the great martial artists in history, and today, obviously respected their teachers enough to stay with them long enough for their skill to grow. Therefore, most great martial artists have had these virtues impressed upon them repeatedly. Don't worry about people who are egotistical like that. The most senior, faded-gi wearing, with an almost entirely white black belt from wear and tear, 10th degree with an attitude is lesser than a yellow belt, with two months in any art, that people can stand to be around. 

 I think someone can only be high-level if they look outside their art. You can only be good when you realize that you will always have a lifetime of learning, when you realize that your art is not all encompassing. Therefore humility is ALWAYS a prerequisite. Always be willing to seek advice, always search for new techniques, or tactics, and always be open-minded. 

  That, I believe, is the key to success.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 11, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> All of the "higher ups" I have met,regardless of style,seem to be the most kind,humble,and truely open-minded people I have ever had the honor of meeting.


 You need to get out more then 

 lol

 Anyways, martial arts practitioners are no different then any other sort of people... well sort of...  different types of people are drawn to different hobbies.  Anyone likely to pick a fight is not likely to join a Aikido school.  Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, and even judo or TKD maybe.

 You also don't neccessarily have to have be a member of a club to be a good fighter.

 What was the question?


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## Paul B (Apr 11, 2005)

LOL


I'll do ya one better and say anyone looking to pick a fight probably isn't a high level anything. I don't run in McDojo circles and accordingly have only met one 10th Dan  he was definitely laid back and friendly. I wouldn't want to go rounds with him though.

Whatever...the point is,since the question was about "high level"...I don't think you'll find one of them out in a bar,itching to try out their latest one-touch kill technique,or have to worry about getting run down by a member of AARP.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 11, 2005)

Well, lets go to history then 

 Chotoku Kyan was rather famous for taking students to the red lantern district to test out there abilities.

 Choki Motobu sure had a lot of street fights.

 Tatsuo Shimabuku is rummered to have gotten his students to fight in bars.

 Boxers, kickboxers and wrestlers sometimes get reputations for fighting


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## Paul B (Apr 11, 2005)

Nice Andrew...lets not forget..

Sokaku Takeda..rumored to have killed many men in brawls

Morihei Ueshiba..likewise fought many duels,some for his teacher above,allegedly.

Young Sol Choi..also a brawler

Kimura..do I have to say anything?

Countless Kodokan Judoka in the early 1900's. *See EJ Harrisson*

As I stated before..I think it has more to do with the age of "higher ups" and advancement of the "ideals" nowadays.(Think Jutsu to Do) Is it possible you might run up against someone of these men's caliber? Maybe,but highly unlikely. My solution..stay out of seedy bars and red light districts. If you do run up against someone of these men's skill..bend over and kiss your rear goodbye.

I do think that these men in their later years would have anything but condemnation for the way they acted and for people who act in this manner. It's really a needless and pointless thing. But you were very right to point out that people will be people....


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## Andrew Green (Apr 11, 2005)

Can go modern too, see "Gracie Challenge" tapes 

 How about Count Dante and the Dojo Wars?


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## MA-Caver (Apr 11, 2005)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> I think hes talkin about like BB who likes to show off and pick on people, i heard of a group of guys who would go around to bars and start fights with people for the fun of it they seamed to have been pretty good at it to


I remember years ago while attending college in Washington D.C. hearing stories about the Presidental Marine Guard going to known gay bars while on a pass and starting fights there. It was "reputated" that these guys were BB's. 
I have met arrogant "BB's" but I don't think any of them were above first degree/dans. I have seen/known a 2nd (or was it third) degree/dan (this was AGES ago okay) who was a bouncer in a (topless) bar and I've watched him put joint-locks on unruly patrons and escort them out the door, then watched him put the guy on the ground after letting him go and the guy turned on him. Was pretty funny at the time because he was sloppy drunk and a good right jab to the solar-plexus got him bent over til the cops arrived. 
But I agree with Paul when he said:


			
				Paul B said:
			
		

> High Level...to me...means not only technical proficiency,but also a kind of spiritual maturity that is noticable with very senior practitioners. I highly doubt you would find anyone like that attacking you out of the blue.
> All of the "higher ups" I have met,regardless of style,seem to be the most kind,humble,and truely open-minded people I have ever had the honor of meeting.


Absoultely true here in my experiences as well. 
Bruce Lee had the reputation of messing with people but it was more of his playful nature than any real aggressiveness on his part. I am thinking along the lines that "higher" ranking BB's know how much damage they can inflict on someone and it is just childish to be showing off... plus their average age is in  the low 30's to low 50's and thus (as Paul said) their maturity level and spiritual awareness wouldn't allow for such childish antics.


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## Drac (Apr 12, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> All of the "higher ups" I have met,regardless of style,seem to be the most kind,humble,and truely open-minded people I have ever had the honor of meeting.


I agree 100%..As a former "bouncer" the idiot trouble makers were NEVER what could be considered as true martial artist..


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## MJS (Apr 12, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> I know we would all like to think we are humble and responsible in the way we use out skills,and that our styles have codes of conduct that prevent individuals from misusing what they have learnt but occasionally some people do sneak through the net!
> 
> There are many people with big egos who like to show off and intimidate people with the martial arts skills. We've all probably seen the Karate Kid films and these people do exist in real life. Many times you may hear someone say 'don't mess with me, I'm a black belt'.  And occasionaly even the instructors can turn out to be the one with the ego who like to show off their skills. Luckily i have never met anyone like this.



This kind of goes hand in hand with the Lack of Respect thread.  People who walk around like this obviously have large egos and no respect for the art or other people.  What they fail to realize is that having a BB does not make you a Superman.  Some day, they just may find themselves acting like a big shot near the wrong person.

Mike


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> I  Many times you may hear someone say 'don't mess with me, I'm a black belt'.


Respond by saying if they would like a "black eye" to match their "black belt"


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## Corporal Hicks (Apr 13, 2005)

Sorry I'm a little behind the times. What is BB?

I thought BBJ was Brazilian (Aggh cant spell it!!!) Ju Jitsu!

Whats BB? Big Bully?

Regards


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## MJS (Apr 13, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Sorry I'm a little behind the times. What is BB?
> 
> I thought BBJ was Brazilian (Aggh cant spell it!!!) Ju Jitsu!
> 
> ...



BB= Black Belt.

Just a little short hand that I use in my posts.  

You are correct on the BJJ though.

Mike


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## Sam (Apr 13, 2005)

BB= black belt.

dunno what bbj is.

*edit* argh, where did that post sneak in from? it wasnt there when I answered!


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## Bammx2 (Apr 13, 2005)

Being in alot event security,I have often seen people "try" and use MA in a fight THINKING they were tough.....but ego doesn't mix well with drug and alcohol abuse
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I used to go to school with 3 brothers who were BB's and thought they were tough....til they found out sport TKD doesn't work in a bar fight!
(see previous statement)


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Being in alot event security,I have often seen people "try" and use MA in a fight THINKING they were tough.....but ego doesn't mix well with drug and alcohol abuse
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But was it them or TKD? Or the instructor and/or parents?


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 13, 2005)

_
But was it them or TKD? Or the instructor and/or parents?_

If you follow the "Sparring Syles" thread n the TKD forum, some are of the thought that the technique(s) you learn to excel in sport TKD are somewhat less than as powerful as they could be


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## Bammx2 (Apr 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But was it them or TKD? Or the instructor and/or parents?


It was all the above.
 There is a TKD instructor in columbus ohio who has been decievin people for over 25 years,barking crap like "my TKD is UNBEATABLE on the streets"...and to be honest,with all the trophies from point competitions in his windows...he has made a damn good living! I used to train with his first gen BB's...they all quit him and went on to bigger and better things.
The whole family was arrogant because fo thier "training" and they thought they were invincible...thats why they fought 3 on 1....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




and for the record...the TKD instructor is only 1 of 2(in 32 years of being in the arts) I would ever speak ill of in front of anybody...and I even told him face to face.
 The other...supplimented his income with dealing drugs.
and both are still in business!
:shrug:


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 13, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> It was all the above.
> There is a TKD instructor in columbus ohio who has been decievin people for over 25 years,barking crap like "my TKD is UNBEATABLE on the streets"...and to be honest,with all the trophies from point competitions in his windows...he has made a damn good living! I used to train with his first gen BB's...they all quit him and went on to bigger and better things.
> The whole family was arrogant because fo thier "training" and they thought they were invincible...thats why they fought 3 on 1....
> 
> ...


I had my "share" of people procaliming to be instructors. However, they had a identity cover-up instead of teaching a wrong attitude. Still, I had learned some interesting methods, which are applicable, and routines that I have not seen in other arts so far.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 14, 2005)

Scary thing is that a friend of mine (and fellow Instructor) would go to bars and nightclubs together. This was years ago BTW. I went to have some beers and meet women. I tended to have better luck with the beer than the women, but that's another story. 
Anyway, he would ask me point blank if I wanted to get into a bar fight. I just looked at him like he were insane. I actually think he would have done it if I had agreed. After he went to Korea to teach English, he would tell me of his exploits getting into fights with Korean guys and using Tae Kwon Do on them and whatnot.


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## Tony (Apr 15, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Scary thing is that a friend of mine (and fellow Instructor) would go to bars and nightclubs together. This was years ago BTW. I went to have some beers and meet women. I tended to have better luck with the beer than the women, but that's another story.
> Anyway, he would ask me point blank if I wanted to get into a bar fight. I just looked at him like he were insane. I actually think he would have done it if I had agreed. After he went to Korea to teach English, he would tell me of his exploits getting into fights with Korean guys and using Tae Kwon Do on them and whatnot.




Thats really messed up and with his instructor too who should have taught him better than to pick fights. Its so sad that there still people who reach the high levels and misuse their training.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 15, 2005)

Scary isn't it?

If he pick a fight in a bar in my ol neighborhood, he will get shot.


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## Zoran (Apr 15, 2005)

I would say that Martial Artists that pick fights are in the very low minority. That being said, I bounced for about 10 years and have had to fight 2 higher level martial artists. One Kung Fu and one JKD. Alcohol does not discriminate and can make anyone stupid.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 16, 2005)

He did not go to bars WITH our instructor, he was a fellow instructor who would go to bars with me. Our instructor would have gotten very angry if he had known about this. His response would have been "some day you will meet real trouble".


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 16, 2005)

I think there are several misconception about martial arts BY martial artists.  Maybe too many Karate kid movies.  Martial arts, at it's most basic, fundamental core, is about physical combat.  I know there are people out there who would like to forget that. All the spiritual stuff, all the ethics, and all the rest, got tagged on later.   Martial "arts" started out as martial ways, i.e., ways of warfare.  The idea that being good at martial arts at it's basic rawest, is the same as being spiritual, ethical and moral, is a serious misconception.  One does not of necessity have anything to do with the other.  The belief that it does is only an indication of how well the myth has been perpetrated in our society.  

Now, this isn't to say that martial arts won't teach values, morals and ethics.  It is to say, however, that it is not a requirement to be moral and upright to be technically extremely skilled and talented.  So the idea that only someone who sets themselves as an outstanding shining light to world, can be a skilled martial artist, is extremely silly and based on nothing more than wishful thinking.  

I will agree with an earlier comment, however, that suggest that certain arts tend to attract more bellicose practioners.  The true combat arts tend to attract extremely aggressive, self-assured and self-confident people.  Arts like boxing, muay thai, even jui-jitsu or other full contact arts, tend to attract people who are more aggressive.  Arts like Aikido tend to attract the more spiritually minded.  This isn't necessarily the case in all situations, but I belief it's more the rule than the exception.  

As per the original question about dealing with a skilled fighter in a real fight, you've got a problem.  The more combat oriented the fighting style, the larger the problem it is.  For example, I really don't want to have fight a highly skilled boxer in a barroom or on a street corner.  The fact is, however, that of the different fighting arts, boxing and muay thai are likely to be the most common one you'll deal with on the street.  They are also likely to be among the worst to confront.  A good boxer can render an opponent unconcious very quickly.  

All I can recommend is that training for self-defense, one should learn to spot different combat styles, for example, learn to spot a classic boxing stance, or the slightly altered step-and-slide pattern stepping of a muay thai practioner.  Learn to spot how a wrestler sets up for attack or the different stances of different other arts.  This will help you tailor your defense to their fighting style.  If they are an upright fighter, take it too the ground and vice versa.  When dealing with skilled fighters, however, you have a problem.


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## Cruentus (Apr 16, 2005)

So, you mean that shaving my head, becoming vegan, wearing these goofy robes and sandles, cutting off my genitalia, and giving 50% of my income to my unquestionable martial arts master WON'T make me good at fighting.

I'm sorry Sgt. Mac, but that is just pure crap. I am going to now go meditate on how kindness enhances ones ability to bring death on all possible assailents. 

Paul


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## Cruentus (Apr 16, 2005)

On a serious note, I will say that some good morals/ethics/behaviors do indirectly enhance ones ability to achieve skill as a fighter/martial artist.

Reason is that most criminals are inherently lazy, have a host of psychological problems, or both. 

People who try to make money off of crime are usually inherently lazy. If they weren't, then they wouldn't be trying to take shortcuts and would instead try to work hard and get a legit job like everyone else. Well, one thing that is nearly impossible to do is to become seriously skilled at fighting without working for it. Martial Artist who are skilled generally have to train hard to get there. Most criminals who do crime for $$ aren't guys who just left the boxing gym and are looking for random training opportunities (RTO's) on the street. Most criminals are looking for victims, and the easiest way to achieve their goals. Training hard is not really an easy way.

Other criminals who are not in it for the money, such as violent criminals who assault others frequently, have anger problems that cause criminal behavior, etc., usually have major psychological issues. In order to train hard and seriously, one has to possess a degree of patience, perserverance, humility (enough to be able to recognize mistakes for self improvement), a drive to better oneself, and a degree of positive thinking and self-worth. Someone with violent criminal tendencies and behaviors are usually lacking in one or more of these areas.

That all said, I am a pesamist when it comes to the skill levels of the average martial artist. I think that the average violent criminal would and could take the average martial artist in a fight. Most average martial artists took up "martial arts" in part because they are also lacking in one or more of the qualities that it would take to acheive a really high level of skill; except they lacking these qualities for different reasons - and that is because they are usually on the physically/mentally weaker side of society and they want to make improvements in those areas. This is why your more likely to hear, "I want to get in shape" or "I want to build self confidence" as viable reasons for taking a martial art over "I want to be a better fighter". The average criminal has been training through experience to monopolize on other peoples weaknesses, where as the average martial artist has not overcome their weaknesses enough to not get taken advantage of by the average criminal. So out of pure aggressiveness, violence, and ability to monopolize on the weaknesses of others, the average preditory criminal would be able to take the average martial artist.

That all said, if we are talking about the above average martial artist or even the extremely skilled martial artist, I would vote for the extremely skilled martial artist. The extremely skilled martial artist, in my opinion, IS also an extremely skilled fighter, and will be able to take care of most violent criminals (recognizing of course that no one is 100% safe, and that anyone could get killed regardless of skill). And, I would have to say that due to the nature of what it takes to achieve this high level of skill, I would say that most violent criminals do not possess the qualities to get there.

Paul


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## TonyM. (Apr 16, 2005)

Gotta agree on all points. As a former correctional officer these have been my observations as well.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 16, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> On a serious note, I will say that some good morals/ethics/behaviors do indirectly enhance ones ability to achieve skill as a fighter/martial artist.
> 
> Reason is that most criminals are inherently lazy, have a host of psychological problems, or both.
> 
> ...


Or they are an extremely violent, aggressive, and well trained sociopath who merely uses violence as a means to an end and doesn't have a concience.  If that's the case, you have a problem.  Lest we forget, the boxing world has it's fair share of street brawlers.  Say what you will about Mike Tysons current performance, you wouldn't want to meet him on the street in a fight even now, much less ten years ago.  But i'll agree that the majority of martial artists won't get in to street fights very often, for no other reason than there is really no percentages in, nothing to be gained and everything to be lost.  High level martial artists have spent years acquiring their skill level.  A 30 year old martial artist isn't the same person he was when he was 17.  He has more skill, more training, and probably a family and a job.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 16, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> But i'll agree that the majority of martial artists won't get in to street fights very often, for no other reason than there is really no percentages in, nothing to be gained and everything to be lost. High level martial artists have spent years acquiring their skill level. A 30 year old martial artist isn't the same person he was when he was 17. He has more skill, more training, and probably a family and a job.


True, the martial artist soon learns that the practices isn;t about starting fights or looking to prove themselves.

Through time, many things change.


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## Adept (Apr 16, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I think there are several misconception about martial arts BY martial artists. Maybe too many Karate kid movies. Martial arts, at it's most basic, fundamental core, is about physical combat. I know there are people out there who would like to forget that. All the spiritual stuff, all the ethics, and all the rest, got tagged on later. Martial "arts" started out as martial ways, i.e., ways of warfare. The idea that being good at martial arts at it's basic rawest, is the same as being spiritual, ethical and moral, is a serious misconception. One does not of necessity have anything to do with the other. The belief that it does is only an indication of how well the myth has been perpetrated in our society.


 Right on. A lot of people I know get far too caught up in the spiritual side of martial arts, which is fine for them, but is completely seperate from being able to handle yourself in a pinch.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 16, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Right on. A lot of people I know get far too caught up in the spiritual side of martial arts, which is fine for them, but is completely seperate from being able to handle yourself in a pinch.


Exactly. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. You can be the biggest jerk in the world AND the toughest. In fact, i'll be willing to bet that the absolute best fighters throughout history are some of the most egotistical. You can't tell me that the best gladiators to fight in the colloseum were the nice guys. The way I see it, however, is that if i'm interested in learning from someone, the last thing I concern myself with is whether they are a jerk. I'd rather learn from a knowledgeable jerk, than a really nice incompetent. Personality means less to me than practical knowledge.  Now, if two instructors are equal, and one of them is a nice guy, i'll go with the nice guy.


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## Cruentus (Apr 17, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Or they are an extremely violent, aggressive, and well trained sociopath who merely uses violence as a means to an end and doesn't have a concience.



Yes, but the "well trained" part is what is few and far between. These people are extremely dangerous though. I would say that Mike Tyson fits the category, at least back then.


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## Corporal Hicks (Apr 17, 2005)

Zoran said:
			
		

> I would say that Martial Artists that pick fights are in the very low minority. That being said, I bounced for about 10 years and have had to fight 2 higher level martial artists. One Kung Fu and one JKD. Alcohol does not discriminate and can make anyone stupid.


On an interest note! How did it turn out?

Regards


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 17, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Right on. A lot of people I know get far too caught up in the spiritual side of martial arts, which is fine for them, but is completely seperate from being able to handle yourself in a pinch.


Yes, I agree. The training has to surface or account for it. However, this is about people who are going to look to start or attack someone using their skills. Perhaps, almost no different than a mugger using a weapon.


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## Zoran (Apr 24, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> On an interest note! How did it turn out?
> 
> Regards


 They both made some errors. 

 The Kung Fu guy was passing around his martial arts biz card and when I looked at it, the name rang a bell which is not a good sign. So I was very prepared. When he became physically confrontational, I basically grabed him and threw him down and wedged him under the cigerette machine and waited until he promised to relax.

 The JKD guy's biggest mistake was to try to strike me while backing up at the same time. Even if I missed a block, there would not have been enough power in his strike to do any damage anyways. We ended up on the ground (_he eventually took me there_), but I guess I knew more aboout ground work than he, even if I am a Kenpo guy. 

 I actually wrote a short article on the last fight since it is one of the few that I remember very clearly. It can be found HERE.


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## Corporal Hicks (Apr 25, 2005)

Zoran said:
			
		

> They both made some errors.
> 
> The Kung Fu guy was passing around his martial arts biz card and when I looked at it, the name rang a bell which is not a good sign. So I was very prepared. When he became physically confrontational, I basically grabed him and threw him down and wedged him under the cigerette machine and waited until he promised to relax.
> 
> ...


Aha sounds good!
Cheers!:asian:


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## rmcpeek (Apr 25, 2005)

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I haven't come across very many people in my years that walk around saying "Don't mess with me, I'm a Black Belt.". 

I have come across plenty of people who say "Don't mess with me" and even with my years of training and experience both in the dojo and on the street, sometimes it's better not to mess with them and walk away.

In no way am I saying that I might fear these individuals, because I do not, but is it worth the trouble? or hassle? or lawsuits? Whether they're an experienced Black Belt with a bad attitude as you've described in the initial post here, or they're a streetfighter, does it matter?

Rember this, no matter what style you practice, no matter how much experience you have, there is and always will be someone BETTER than you.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 25, 2005)

rmcpeek said:
			
		

> 1.) I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I haven't come across very many people in my years that walk around saying "Don't mess with me, I'm a Black Belt.".
> 
> 2.) I have come across plenty of people who say "Don't mess with me" and even with my years of training and experience both in the dojo and on the street, sometimes it's better not to mess with them and walk away.
> 
> ...


1.) Yeah, most of the time I ignore them.

2.) Ditto to the first-however many of my juvenile students were irriated by others whom had studied and reached that level. (BTW-my juveniles do not get tested for a Black Belt rank until 18-17 if they have the maturity)

3.) Lawsuits, had a coupe of those. Best to avoid the confrontation all together then to spend countles time and money in court.

4.) Yes, and I do not advocate to go around and find out whom.


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## An Eternal Student (Apr 28, 2005)

Working on the basis that you wouldnt get attacked by a high level martial artist, because they SHOULDNT do it, is not a good line of logic.I figure you should try and train to deal with as many eventualities as possible, one of these being that you're opponent might have some real skill.Sparring against high levels and really forcing them to put in some effort is a good way of training for that.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 29, 2005)

An Eternal Student said:
			
		

> Working on the basis that you wouldnt get attacked by a high level martial artist, because they SHOULDNT do it, is not a good line of logic.I figure you should try and train to deal with as many eventualities as possible, one of these being that you're opponent might have some real skill.Sparring against high levels and really forcing them to put in some effort is a good way of training for that.


Excellent point.


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## Kamaria Annina (May 1, 2005)

I know a friend who is much like that.  I remember first training with him.  When I was a yellow belt, the first injury I ever got from him was a kick to the head & my mouth bled.  He's one of those types that uses high degrees of attacks to all levels of belts.  In a way, you could say he is "merciless."   One time during sparring, he tried to twist another friend of mine's neck.  As you can imagine, he seriously got a butt chewing with our head master.

 Anyways, it isn't fun to deal with that in anyone's martial arts training.


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## 47MartialMan (May 1, 2005)

Kamaria Annina said:
			
		

> I know a friend who is much like that. I remember first training with him. When I was a yellow belt, the first injury I ever got from him was a kick to the head & my mouth bled. He's one of those types that uses high degrees of attacks to all levels of belts. In a way, you could say he is "merciless." One time during sparring, he tried to twist another friend of mine's neck. As you can imagine, he seriously got a butt chewing with our head master.
> 
> Anyways, it isn't fun to deal with that in anyone's martial arts training.


Butt chewing, we would have had him soar woth someone else more tougher and gave him a dose, THEN chewed his butt.:erg:


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## Adept (May 1, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Butt chewing, we would have had him soar woth someone else more tougher and gave him a dose, THEN chewed his butt.:erg:


 I remember the first time my instructor pulled me aside and told me to really belt someone I was sparring against, for exactly this reason.

 It was also the last time. I wasn't really comfortable being anyones 'enforcer'.


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## 47MartialMan (May 1, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> I remember the first time my instructor pulled me aside and told me to really belt someone I was sparring against, for exactly this reason.
> 
> It was also the last time. I wasn't really comfortable being anyones 'enforcer'.


Nah, not an enforcer. Just a eye-opener. Or a lesson of humiliation. Not an actual/physical beating.


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## evenflow1121 (May 1, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> And occasionaly even the instructors can turn out to be the one with the ego who like to show off their skills. Luckily i have never met anyone like this.


Ive ran into a few of these in my life, sadly one of them was once a good friend of mine who started martial arts more or less at the same time I did. When he opened up his school, he would beat the snot out of all his lower level students, not to teach them that the techniques worked but to show them how far more superior he was and to make them believe he was this badass fighter, in reality he was mediocre at best. In any event, these guys are the worst in my opinion, one thing is to demonstrate to your students that the techniques work, so they understand what they are doing, and to have them spar, and sure that can involve some pain for them, but another thing is to all out abuse them so they dont question your authority--this is just plain wrong.


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## 47MartialMan (May 1, 2005)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> Ive ran into a few of these in my life, sadly one of them was once a good friend of mine who started martial arts more or less at the same time I did. When he opened up his school, he would beat the snot out of all his lower level students, not to teach them that the techniques worked but to show them how far more superior he was and to make them believe he was this badass fighter, in reality he was mediocre at best. In any event, these guys are the worst in my opinion, one thing is to demonstrate to your students that the techniques work, so they understand what they are doing, and to have them spar, and sure that can involve some pain for them, but another thing is to all out abuse them so they dont question your authority--this is just plain wrong.


That is a huge ego...


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## Shogun (May 12, 2005)

I have met many "mean" BB guys. they will purposely pick fights with people so they can show their skills and get a reputation. bunch of idiots. I have seen some get beaten down so badly for starting fights with the wrong people (ie gang members, groups of country folk, etc) 
another well known high ranking master to have fought a lot: Angel Cabales for starters, Ueshiba is the most shocking, the gracie family, Takematsu, and most other grandmasters.



> I remember the first time my instructor pulled me aside and told me to really belt someone I was sparring against, for exactly this reason.


The only time this strategy is used in the BJJ schools i've gone to is when the people come in that are exactly what this thread is about. some guy comes in and says he is the best and can beat everyone, the instructor usually pairs him with a good white belt. the white belt beats him, and they go back to nice guys.


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## chris... (May 22, 2005)

Our instructors have taken me down or locked me up plenty of times for demonstrations or instructing purposes, likewise I have done the same to them. It looks painfull but its actually not cause we use just enough to start the pain and also tap out to avoid going to far. I think its a good form of training nobody gets hurt and you practually learn how use the techniques in real-life


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

But to they attack others outside the school?


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## chris... (May 23, 2005)

I highly doubt it they dont seem the type, and if anyone does they never talk about it. Our instructor said he'd throw people out of his club if he heard about anyone doing that


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

chris... said:
			
		

> I highly doubt it they dont seem the type, and if anyone does they never talk about it. Our instructor said he'd throw people out of his club if he heard about anyone doing that


But your posts seem to be off topic. It is about people who attack or bully others with their martial art skills.


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## GuruJim1 (May 23, 2005)

Well, I don't know about highly skilled, but criminals do practice martial arts. I'm a police officer, and I know for a fact that criminal practice disarming police officers in prison. The techniques used in some of the stuff I have seen in my years of working as a correctional, and police officer is martial arts. In the 9/11 attacks it was found out that the hijackers learn close quarter fighting at a school in the U.S.. I have been in a couple of fights with martial arts criminal, and one tried to disarm me of my weapon. 

While in a foot chase with a burglary suspect I was able to trip the suspect, and he put his hands under his body. Since an officer can't see your hands they would pull their weapon. I a flash the suspect was off the ground and grabbed my weapon. He had it in a way that I couldn't low the weapon down to him to shoot, unload the weapon, or even fire the weapon. It looked well practiced, but he wasn't prepared for a persons will to surive. He went from trying to get the weapon to just hanging on so he wouldn't get shot. 

Due to my training, and will to live to see my family is greater than a common thug. Because of the Criminal Martial Artist, the true Artist needs to be prepared Phyically, Mentally, and Spiritually. This is what we have over the common thug.

http://groups.msn.com/PukulanTjimindeMalay/homepage.msnw


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know about highly skilled, but criminals do practice martial arts. I'm a police officer, and I know for a fact that criminal practice disarming police officers in prison. The techniques used in some of the stuff I have seen in my years of working as a correctional, and police officer is martial arts. In the 9/11 attacks it was found out that the hijackers learn close quarter fighting at a school in the U.S.. I have been in a couple of fights with martial arts criminal, and one tried to disarm me of my weapon.
> 
> While in a foot chase with a burglary suspect I was able to trip the suspect, and he put his hands under his body. Since an officer can't see your hands they would pull their weapon. I a flash the suspect was off the ground and grabbed my weapon. He had it in a way that I couldn't low the weapon down to him to shoot, unload the weapon, or even fire the weapon. It looked well practiced, but he wasn't prepared for a persons will to surive. He went from trying to get the weapon to just hanging on so he wouldn't get shot.
> 
> ...


Of course criminals practice MA. Just the same they acquire burgulary tools and firearms.


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## GuruJim1 (May 23, 2005)

Which is my point


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

The thread has it to be knoe that such can exist. But there is not a cure-all to prevent it.

It will be like mandating more firearm laws.

As if a criminal will abide by these laws.

Criminlas are that-law-breakers...


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## Jonathan Randall (Jun 4, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Not too sure what you're looking for here.
> 
> 
> High Level...to me...means not only technical proficiency,but also a kind of spiritual maturity that is noticable with very senior practitioners. I highly doubt you would find anyone like that attacking you out of the blue.
> ...


Man, I sure wish my experience matched yours! I've  encountered more than a few highly trained experts who were narcissists and egomaniacs of the worst sort.

I do agree with your assessment of "high level". Fighting proficiency alone doesn't make a person a "master". "Master", to me, at least, implies first a mastery of self.

Regarding the original question; yes, it's very possible to encounter a well trained fighter on the street. Something to keep at the back of your mind but I personally am more concerned with the possibility of encountering a 16 year old with a handgun and no conscience.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jun 4, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> I remember the first time my instructor pulled me aside and told me to really belt someone I was sparring against, for exactly this reason.
> 
> It was also the last time. I wasn't really comfortable being anyones 'enforcer'.


Good for you for recognizing the problem with this request. Had you been comfortable with being a "payback" person, you would be, at least partly, on your way to becoming one of those martial artists this thread was started to address.


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## Tony (Jan 21, 2006)

I have a friend who though isn't very flexible and can hardly kick above waist height is getting to quite a senior level in Taekwondo and seems to take pleasure in showing people what he has learnt and how devastating taekwondo is. He has said taht I woudl find Taekwondo too fierce which is why I do Kung fu. This is false as Kung fu is jsut as deadly as any other art (the style i practice is Shaolin Long Fist) He has been warned many times for excessive contact while sparring by his instructor but still he is allowed to train. He is very agressive and i really don't think his training has addressed his anger issues and soon he will be at the next level.
Isn't sad how anyone can learn a Martial Art without learning restraint and being able to control their anger and thinking that just because they have practiced a martial art for so many years they are now unbeatable!


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## James Clifton (Apr 7, 2006)

I HAVE TO PLEAD,"STUPID"!! WE (I) used to look for fights with other MA STYLES! You "young"MA'S have to try and understand!Some would visit other schools ,meet the Instructor & ask if we could "exchange tech.(fight)!! THIS WAS A DIFF.TIME....(forget about Insur.& being PC)WE WANTED TO SEE IF WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT worked!! Did the Instructors accept?? Are you kidding,the students looked at us the way we looked at them,"FRESH MEAT"!! No this is NOT made up,it was real....some oldtimers,may have forgotten!! 
Be safe,
          Jim


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## Hand Sword (Apr 12, 2006)

I remember well!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 12, 2006)

"You Don't Know The Power Of The Dark Side!"


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## kempocomtai (May 1, 2006)

I have as a matter of fact it was the master of my school I think he take pride in making people look bad reason I say this is because one of my friends was at his class and he wanted to spar with lite contact but the head master took it to far my friend didnt think that was right because he was just playing but they locked the door and made him fight.


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## Hand Sword (May 2, 2006)

Sounds like some old school tuff love. If you're going to fight...fight! That aside, I can understand where your coming from. Hopefully, your friend no longer goes to that school, and wasn't hurt. A dojo is not a prison cell.


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## HelloKitty (Oct 24, 2007)

Tony said:


> I know we would all like to think we are humble and responsible in the way we use out skills,and that our styles have codes of conduct that prevent individuals from misusing what they have learnt but occasionally some people do sneak through the net!
> 
> There are many people with big egos who like to show off and intimidate people with the martial arts skills. We've all probably seen the Karate Kid films and these people do exist in real life. Many times you may hear someone say 'don't mess with me, I'm a black belt'. And occasionaly even the instructors can turn out to be the one with the ego who like to show off their skills. Luckily i have never met anyone like this.


 
I think I know what you are pointing here. In my new school (I've been here for 2 weeks) I had sparring with a black belt and he really hit me hard. I even have three or four huge bruises, pffff. Our grand master saw this and after class he called the black belt and put him to kick difficult and tiring techniques. Some people think our master did it to correct his behaviour, and told me to protect myself the best I can because he doesn't care about lower rank students.

I've always seen the higher ranks, specially black belts and instructors, as better people, not only in technique, strenght, etc. yet in wisdom, but you can see, it's not always the reality.

The only think we can do is avoid these kind of people, don't you think?


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## newGuy12 (Oct 24, 2007)

First, I have not read all of these posts in this thread, but, it appears to be an older thread that is now revived?

I say this --> when I was young, many older students and higher belts would kick us REALLY HARD!  We got kicked into the walls, over and over again!  It never killed any of us, it never ran us off either!  I would not trade those days for any riches!

If some adept martial artists attack another adept martial artist to fight for real, full contact, to cause injury -- somebody might get killed, no joke!  

Its very serious!


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