# Deflecting Hammer



## jfarnsworth (Jul 2, 2002)

This technique should be next in line to be discussed. What kind of information can we share on this one? I like to end Deflecting Hammer with a takedown. The takedown is similar to Tripping Arrow except I grab the attacker's right arm (or sleeve) with my left hand and drop my right inward elbow strike to an outward claw to the face and grab at the attacker's left shoulder with my right hand. From this position I shift to the forward bow facing between 8-9 to buckle the leg and execute the takedown. Next I follow up with a front heel snap kick to the chin. This is just something I've been able to practice and perform on numerous occassions and has worked well for me. Any other thoughts.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 2, 2002)

So your doing a O soto gari throw.
Bob:asian:


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## Kirk (Jul 2, 2002)

I love grafting into five swords after executing this tech.  Take one
step with the left leg, so you're behind your opponent, then 
execute five swords from behind.  It's brutal.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 2, 2002)

Never seen the tech, but I do love O'soto. My only prob is at 66kg, it's not all that hard to reverse.  Ipon Seoi and Uki Waza is more my forte


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## kenmpoka (Jul 3, 2002)

I usually teach a few variations of this technique besides the standard EPAK execution:

1)Suffle into a right neutral bow and trap the kicking leg, as you would do a right downward block but this time continue the circle all the way up to trap the kicking leg at the anckle. At the same time execute the left palm trust (or a grab), I prefer to strike the throat or face to check the depth. From this point you can either sweep behind the left leg or sweep the shin to the front.

2)Having studied Aikido, I like reversing opponent's force against himself as well:
Suffle in as in#1, trap the leg and throw the right palm back to the opponent's face by either suffling towards him or take a left step forward. Keep your left check up. This one is useful against mass attack. 

I hope you like these variations.

Respectfully,

Peter Teymouraz.:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 3, 2002)

It's similar to O'sotogari but I use this as a takedown. I really should have to shift to the reverse bow not forward. If you look at O'sotogari it is a throw where the head comes down and the leg goes up, at least that's how i was taught. There probably isn't anything wrong with suffixing a throw but I don't feel comfortable with too many throws at this point. 
Jason Farnsworth


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## Klondike93 (Jul 3, 2002)

Do you step back or shuffle back, and to what point on the clock?


:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 3, 2002)

I stay firmly "rooted" to the ground when applying the takedown. The attacker should be off balance after the elbow to the face anyways. For you JJ guys I was talking to my friend today about this technique and we came up with [(}possibly{)] O'Goshi after sliding the left foot up while transitioning the right hand to the waist. I haven't tested this theory but I believe it could work. 
Jason Farnsworth


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 3, 2002)

Here is several throws you could do. After doing the elbow strike with right elbow step r.leg across to 9 o-clock apply Tai otoshi throw. Instead of elbow, pull his head into your chest while striking back of neck apply Koshi Guruma, which is a hip throw while grabbing the back of his head. Harai Goshi which is outside leg sweep while doing a hip throw. Uchi Mata inside leg sweep while doing a hip throw. Instead of sweeping with Osoto gari leg. Use the other leg and do Kosoto Gake. Yoko Otoshi side body drop into the mount position. There is 6 throws that you can practice.
Bob :asian:


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## Chronuss (Jul 4, 2002)

you know...that would be really helpful and informative and more than likely educational IF I FRIGGIN' SPOKE CHINESE.  laymen's terms are appreciated for us West Virginia Kenpo folk.  we can't speak that fancy stuff...


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## GouRonin (Jul 4, 2002)

Tripping Arrow is a variation on Judo's O Soto Gari.

Apparently the Old Man knew some Judo.

:rofl:


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _
> 
> *you know...that would be really helpful and informative and more than likely educational IF I FRIGGIN' SPOKE CHINESE.  laymen's terms are appreciated for us West Virginia Kenpo folk.  we can't speak that fancy stuff... *



Sorry, but the terms I used are Japanese terms and I did give American terms for most of the throws. I didn't know that  I had to give West Virginia terms. (Ha Ha Ha)

Tai Otoshi=Body drop or trip
Koshi Guruma=Hip Throw while grabbing around the neck
Harai goshi= Hip throw while sweeping the outside leg
Uchi Mata=Hip throw while sweeping the inside leg
Osoto Gari=Major outside leg sweep (Step your right leg behind there right leg)
Kosoto Gake=minor outside leg sweep (step your left leg behind there right leg)
Yoko Otoshi=side body drop
Bob  :asian:


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 4, 2002)

I usually use American Terms when teaching in class. But being on this forum I wanted to be political correct when listing the throws. Sorry for confussion.
Bob:asian:


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## Seig (Jul 5, 2002)

You have to excuse Chronuss, he's having a hard time of it.  He dates my sister.  If'n he keeps it up, I'll larn him some manners.:hammer:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 5, 2002)

Seig,

I can't believe you'd let a Kenpo guy date your sister!  my wifes brother didn't know until it was too late!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan


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## Chronuss (Jul 5, 2002)

Let a Kenpo guy date his sister...well hell, her brother's a Kenpo guy himself, so that's a double whammy.  dating her's fun though, gives me lotsa blocking practice.   


and don't mind me about the Japanese terminology, I was just playing.  although, a literal translation of the terms would be cool, though.


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## Seig (Jul 5, 2002)

He's a pretty good guy, I keep trying to trade his parents, him for my sister.  Unfair trade, they won't go for it.


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## Seig (Jul 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _
> 
> *Let a Kenpo guy date his sister...well hell, her brother's a Kenpo guy himself, so that's a double whammy.  dating her's fun though, gives me lotsa blocking practice.
> 
> ...


What he is notmentioning is the fact that he was not a Kenpo guy until he started dating my sister, we put him on the One True Path and now all is well.


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## Chronuss (Jul 5, 2002)

indeed... you can see how it all began by seeing my reply in the thread "The first 3 times Kenpo made you say Wow".


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## big351stang (Jul 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *He's a pretty good guy, I keep trying to trade his parents, him for my sister.  Unfair trade, they won't go for it. *






Oh but i bet he has a little wild side that only comes out in the deep when nun of us see him hehehe:rofl:


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## FUZZYJ692000 (Jul 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by big351stang _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



What are you trying to do corrupt the guy now Billy?  See now he has to be extra good so nobody catches on.  Ha ha...think he knows  that we know?


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## Seig (Jul 6, 2002)

Oh but I do know.......about all of you.......*BWAHAHAHAHAHA* :EG:


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 6, 2002)

Chronus,

 Now would be  an exceptionally  GOOD time to work on keeping those elbows in.............. (sinister laugh from the shadows of the back row of the dojo)


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Bob,
You had me curious upon these throw you had listed. Since I only knew of 1 I decided to call my good friend that teaches JJ. He and I set up a time today to work out & practice these throws. Now, all I can say from here is each one of those throws gets progressively harder, then worse. If you are teaching these the same way we went over them, from the same position ending Deflecting Hammer, right to right, pressing check, elbow to the face with your right leg behind his? Tai Otoshi is the most vicious throw I've ever seen!! If you could let me know how you practice some of these techniques without injuring people? That list of throws looks to be real versatile for kenpo positions and I'd like to keep using these if I had a way to practice without hurting someone.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## Klondike93 (Jul 6, 2002)

How do you do the throw from the end of Deflecting Hammer?



:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 6, 2002)

I don't know exactly for sure if you can put that on this forum into words. I did take notes today when I was practicing with my friend. Maybe Bob has it in written form, (I don't know) and can post if he wants to. I can try my best to type but it would be later tonight & It would also be extremley hard to try to even say the correct words and terms.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 6, 2002)

Jason, the way I practice this throw without knocking someone's teeth out. Is instead grab the person,with both hands on same shoulder. Closest elbow to their face will push as you do the Tai Otoshi throw. Start with your elbow against their face as you push. If you need a list of throws I could send you a list of what we do or a list of Judo or Jujutsu throws. You may want to go out and buy a good jujutsu or judo book also. I can list several books that I have if you want.
Bob :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93_*
> How do you do the throw from the end of Deflecting Hammer?
> *



Easy.....

From the elbow, contour right hand around in front of the opponents body as you drag up your left foot to your right.

Then turn counter clockwise with your body as you shoot your right leg towards 2 clock and buckle your opponents right leg as you throw him over the right hip.

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Jul 6, 2002)

That's the way I thought a kenpo person would do it, but is that different than the Japanese one they're talking about?


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 6, 2002)

but the results are the same.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *but the results are the same.*



You could always go with the favourite O-Goshi. Easy to do. Ippon Sei Nage might be good to pull off too. However O Soto Gari might be easiest to do as it follows the continuity of motion as the others require you to change direction.

For those not so much into Judo, imagine deflecting hammer with tripping arrow grafted onto the end.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 6, 2002)

Honorable Judoka Gou son..... you good.......

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Honorable Judoka Gou son..... you good.......*



Thank you oh ponderous one.

This is a follow through on the conversation I had with you a while ago. We were discussing the technique _"Glancing Salute"_ and why it might be best in the ideal phase to continue through after the knee strike to provide continuity of motion rather than step back. I agreed with your, and Huk's, position that it was better to utilize your energy in a straight line rather than change it and diminish the use. Although the stepping back is a great way to deal with a _"what if"_ aspect I think that this technique is great example of use of motion in a straight line.

So I got to thinking there has to be similarities in other arts and looking at my limited Judo I found it quite easily. Different names. Same concept.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 6, 2002)

Dem principles are principles..........

going to the what if........ does as you realize open a huge can of variance and options ..... 

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jul 6, 2002)

The environmental issues could be just one example of the need for a what if.

What if you're far enough away from the wall to pull off the tech glancing salute but he goes too far back on the strike and rebounds off the wall? That's when you might look to a Ippon Sei Nage or perhaps graft into a thundering hammers from the second strike to remove yourself from him falling on you but placing yourself in a good striking position. His landing I would think should allow you to pull off leap of death as a finisher. All of this would leave you in great position as well to deal with other opponents.

Anything is possible for you crazy kenpoists.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 6, 2002)

You go boy...........:asian:


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## GouRonin (Jul 6, 2002)

Go me!
Go me!
It's muh birthday!
Go me!


...wait a minute...stupid Kenpo...


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Go me!
> Go me!
> ...



JACK ***!!!

Stupid is, what stupid does... and it sound like your still practicing Kenpo... Does that make you stupid?

Your Bewildered Friend,
Billy Lear


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 7, 2002)

I shoulda used You're instead of Your... LOL

Mogno go home now.


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## GouRonin (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *JACK ***!!!
> Stupid is, what stupid does... and it sound like your still practicing Kenpo... Does that make you stupid?
> Your Bewildered Friend,
> Billy Lear*



Lies. All lies. I made that stuff up. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I don't study Kenpo.

Of course if you like to race you always want to know what everyone else has under their hood...


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## GouRonin (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I shoulda used You're instead of Your... LOL
> Mogno go home now. *



Me am not caring. Me am still liking you lots.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 7, 2002)

Kiddies,
(I'm bored and tired, don't mean to step on toes, if I do, please move your foot next time )

 IMHO Judo in convergence with another art is deadly. The fact Judo as a sport is (We had nine broken necks last year, and there are more ways it seems to kill your uke accidently then on purose) translates well to the street. Although I don't train in EPAK, I've always wondered how the two arts would blend. From the discussion I've seen so far, pretty well. I mean first you "slap" them silly then throw them on their head. What fun  
(I really wish I could figure how to use the qoute feature)

RE: Tai Otosh
Great throw! (Whispering) If you wanna make it fun, overrotate, turning into a sacrifice throw and take their wind and a couple of ribs. One on one of course. I don't suggest trying this with a partner you wish to continue to train with however.

RE: Injuries
Learn to breakfall. Very Well. Enough said.

I'll go now 


:soapbox:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _*
> I don't train in EPAK, I've always wondered how the two arts would blend. From the discussion I've seen so far, pretty well.
> *



I've been a Life Member of the USJA for over 25 years and I would say you are correct..... :rofl: 

:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 7, 2002)

That was my toe!!! Ouch!!! :lol: 

I like the idea of dropping someone on their head after beating the crap outta them too, but they lost me when they started the itchi-bitchi talk. Not that I'm against using japanese terminology or anything... I just haven't taken a lesson in the japanese language in close to 19 years.

Hasta,
Billy Lear


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 7, 2002)

A little more "Well Rounding" won't hurt you.......
Billy-son

Katanu Ish ta  anki nakaikske
:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *A little more "Well Rounding" won't hurt you.......
> Billy-son
> ...



I'm still a little round... at least around the mid-section. :lol:
Domo Arigato, Dennis-San.

Billy


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *Jason, the way I practice this throw without knocking someone's teeth out. Is instead grab the person,with both hands on same shoulder. Closest elbow to their face will push as you do the Tai Otoshi throw. Start with your elbow against their face as you push. If you need a list of throws I could send you a list of what we do or a list of Judo or Jujutsu throws. You may want to go out and buy a good jujutsu or judo book also. I can list several books that I have if you want.
> Bob :asian: *



Bob,
That's cool that your willing to share but I have a partial curriculum from my friend that teaches JJ. The reason why I say partial is that I used to send my oldest son to him. I actually wanted him to learn the exact proper way to fall as well as to learn how to throw people. I didn't want to teach him myself due to no classroom setting and when we did practice he made games of it with mostly just laying on the floor acting like a fish. He wasn't mentally prepared yet for kenpo or martial arts. Now that he's getting a little older his attention span is better. Anyways, he had a book of all requirements to black but My friend has since changed things. It would actually be hard to pick up a throw without hands on experience.  Thank you though for the offer it is much appreciated.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Klondike93 (Jul 7, 2002)

> Katanu Ish ta anki nakaikske




All pops and buzzes here  



:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> All pops and buzzes here
> *



Means...... what you don't know and understand might hurt you!

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Jul 8, 2002)

"Domo Arigato, Dennis-San."







:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 8, 2002)

As a kenpo-only geek, a couple of suggested options:

First, don't quite do the Tripping Arrow trip? Pivot left to a left forward bow, as was mentioned, but maybe don't bother to shoot the right leg further to two o'clock.

Second, I personally would be very leery of running this tech on a training partner with my elbow up against their face. Perhaps a push to the chest or a  right ridge-hand, depending on their level? I was taught that kenpo offers strike downs, not (strictly speaking) take-downs...

Third--maybe don't let go of the gi with your left hand as they pivot on down. For beginners, this allows the senior student to control their fall but keep their own back straight--and for more-advanced students, it allows the person with the upper hand to pivot them right down, so that they can immediately drop to a left wide kneel, stick the right knee on the hip, and punch 'em in the head (as in Sleeper) if they complain overmuch.

Interesting analyses. Thank you.
Robert


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