# "Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?



## Hanzou

Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.

Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ


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## CB Jones

No.   If they want great but not necessary



To clarify:  The video is an example of poor and/or wrong defensive tactics and handcuffing.  He doesn’t need BJJ he just needs to use proper tactics


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## ballen0351

I think cops should learn something not necessarily BJJ. but any kind of self defense.  They spend maybe a week or two in the academy learning defensive tactics, then many officers never train again.  However, as a police firearms and DT instructor myself, there is no way we will get cops to train often enough to use BJJ effectively.   I arranged free BJJ training for my department twice a week and on average had 3 or 4 people show up out of 125 officers. I once worked at a larger department with 900 officers that had several BJJ Black belts on the department that offered free training and nobody showed up.  Most cops work long days then add shift work, court on your days off, mandatory OT and special events they don't want to do anything police related on their time off.   Getting department heads to send officers while on duty is impossible with manpower issues and all the other mandatory training they are required to do.  I have a hard enough time getting officers to the range twice a year and that's a state requirement.

However, in a perfect world where officers wanted to train in my opinion, Judo would be best, in my opinion, or general law enforcement.  Not that BJJ is bad I just think the takedowns and throws for Judo are more conducive to the goals of law enforcement.


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## lklawson

I recommend that every cop learn Judo, BJJ, wrestling, or some sort of grappling based curriculum.  Required?  I dunno about requiring it.  I get the idea of required standards, but it so often doesn't actually achieve what the desired outcome is.  Like shooting standards.  A lot of times the standards are made by people who don't really know what it takes or are using out of date methodologies and theories and then the cops will "train to the test" instead of just training.  It's pretty common for some cops to get nervous and spend tons of time practicing for requalification, trying to get back up to Qualification Standard.  ...you mean they weren't there already?  

So, while I like and understand the idea of "standards" and "requirements," too often they don't really achieve what is being hoped for/claimed.  Same goes for grappling curriculum for cops.  Either they see the value and do it on their own (hopefully paid for or reimbursed) or they view it as an irritant and distraction then grudgingly do the bare minimum to meet requirements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## oftheherd1

I agree that cops should train a good martial art.  That isn't just an art with a good reputation, but where it is taught correctly as well.

I understand the reason for not wanting bad publicity.  But when a bad guy resists and tries to harm you, he gets what he deserves.  So I don't think what the art is, is the best way to choose it, but how to use the art you studied well.    Even a striking art will damage an opponent less if it is applied in a way that causes a lot of pain with minimal damage.


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## Hanzou

Heian Shodan said:


> The Cops are fighting with swords, but we are talking about coupling Cops with with Soft Arts.



If only real karate was that awesome.......


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## TMA17

I'm not a cop or an expert in any grappling art, but I tend to agree with Iklawson.  Can't go wrong with Judo/Wrestling/BJJ, with each obviously having their own benefit. 

I don't know how legit this guy is, but he's a fan of Judo.  Judo though has a high learning curve compared to BJJ/Wrestling.  You can learn some basic throws pretty quick but to use them against a resisting opponent?  I don't know. 

I always though within 6-12 months in BJJ you can be good enough to control your average idiot.  I think BJJ would be beneficial to learn.   

Why Judo? - The Self Defense Training System


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## Hanzou

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree that cops should train a good martial art.  That isn't just an art with a good reputation, but where it is taught correctly as well.
> 
> I understand the reason for not wanting bad publicity.  But when a bad guy resists and tries to harm you, he gets what he deserves.  So I don't think what the art is, is the best way to choose it, but how to use the art you studied well.    Even a striking art will damage an opponent less if it is applied in a way that causes a lot of pain with minimal damage.



While I largely agree, I think the cops are trying to avoid getting in trouble later on. Like if you can restrain someone without hurting them, that goes a long way to avoiding trouble from lawsuits and other crap. Striking can be a slippery slope depending on the situation.


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## TMA17

Question for the BJJ guys, how much of BJJ can be applied standing?


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## drop bear

Oh look. A cop on their own trying to fight a guy.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> While I largely agree, I think the cops are trying to avoid getting in trouble later on. Like if you can restrain someone without hurting them, that goes a long way to avoiding trouble from lawsuits and other crap. Striking can be a slippery slope depending on the situation.


That's the big problem I see now.  Everyone is afraid of ending up on CNN so things that one good pop to the nose would end quickly now end up in long drawn out half hearted wrestling matches because Cops are worried about just ending it fast and hard.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.
> 
> Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ


BJJ - taught with the right focus - would be a reasonable answer to the problem. Actually, so would several other systems I’m aware of, to varying degrees. More importantly, more time and repetition in training any reasonable control tactics would improve things.

So, I’d be good with the idea of BJJ filling that space. It serves at least as well as anything else, if adapted to the context...probably better than most other answers.


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## Gerry Seymour

Heian Shodan said:


> I'm Karateka and Muslim. I use Rei (respect) to fight and Struggeling/Jihad to maintain my honor (or integrity) and this is a deadly combination.


What has “deadly” (or the rest of that) to do with the topic at hand?


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## Christopher Adamchek

@ballen0351 had some great points

they should have better training but time is an issue with them, i had cops as the university i teach self defense at amazed by their lack of knowledge in knife confrontation and they have have trouble committing to classes.  A stronger emphasis on stand-up grappling and hand trapping would be nice to police to use more often.


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## Hanzou

TMA17 said:


> Question for the BJJ guys, how much of BJJ can be applied standing?



The kimura, the guillotine, RNC, Arm triangle, and a few others off the top of my head. Plenty of nasty wrist locks too. Probably want to avoid breaking someone's limb or shoulder though.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> The kimura, the guillotine, RNC, Arm triangle, and a few others off the top of my head. Plenty of nasty wrist locks too. Probably want to avoid breaking someone's limb or shoulder though.


Nearly all of arm control would be applicable to cuffing. The whole concept of position before technique would also be big.


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## CB Jones

Would be better off learning boxing and training regularly on Defensive Tactics that have restraint, escorting, handcuffing, and weapon retention in mind.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Would be better off learning boxing and training regularly on Defensive Tactics that have restraint, escorting, handcuffing, and weapon retention in mind.



Doesn't have the quality control.


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## Buka

I'm the wrong one to ask because I think everyone should train. 

But....in the real world, in order to get cops to train a Martial Art you pretty much have to be paying them overtime.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Doesn't have the quality control.



We have had this argument already.

Real world application is very much quality control.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> We have had this argument already.
> 
> Real world application is very much quality control.



And then kemosabe did his industry human weapon training. And everyone got my issue. 

It kind of isn't 

Repeatable observable experimentation is quality control.

And BJJ has enough real world success to validate it anyway. 

Although BJJ isn't optimum, a guy who does it generally handles a guy who doesn't. A guy who does it well can generally handle a guy who does it less well. And that is the starting point for defensive tactics. 

Which means that all other aspects aside BJJ will let a person control a fight to a point he can at least have a real shot of not being in danger. 

And BJJ instructors tend not to be duds because they will get called out buy other instructors and get handled.

So as a base line you have a consistent method that works and that is common and easy to have access to.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> And then kemosabe did his industry human weapon training. And everyone got my issue.
> 
> It kind of isn't
> 
> Repeatable observable experimentation is quality control.
> 
> And BJJ has enough real world success to validate it anyway.
> 
> Although BJJ isn't optimum, a guy who does it generally handles a guy who doesn't. A guy who does it well can generally handle a guy who does it less well. And that is the starting point for defensive tactics.
> 
> Which means that all other aspects aside BJJ will let a person control a fight to a point he can at least have a real shot of not being in danger.
> 
> And BJJ instructors tend not to be duds because they will get called out buy other instructors and get handled.
> 
> So as a base line you have a consistent method that works and that is common and easy to have access to.



Quality control based on what standards? 
Being on a mat, with defined rules, and an understanding that neither person wants to hurt injure or kill the other person isn't great quality control for law enforcement or corrections Quality control


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## drop bear

Police who do BJJ obviously like BJJ. But this video makes the point with just two words.

The officer mentions in training he is 
*
held accountable.*





Real world application is too often an excuse.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> And then kemosabe did his industry human weapon training. And everyone got my issue.
> 
> It kind of isn't
> 
> Repeatable observable experimentation is quality control.
> 
> And BJJ has enough real world success to validate it anyway.
> 
> Although BJJ isn't optimum, a guy who does it generally handles a guy who doesn't. A guy who does it well can generally handle a guy who does it less well. And that is the starting point for defensive tactics.
> 
> Which means that all other aspects aside BJJ will let a person control a fight to a point he can at least have a real shot of not being in danger.
> 
> And BJJ instructors tend not to be duds because they will get called out buy other instructors and get handled.
> 
> So as a base line you have a consistent method that works and that is common and easy to have access to.



That’s all great. But I still think using a system that utilizes bjj and other grappling techniques that are focused on LEO needs would be better for the majority of cops.


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Quality control based on what standards?
> Being on a mat, with defined rules, and an understanding that neither person wants to hurt injure or kill the other person isn't great quality control for law enforcement or corrections Quality control



See the above post on being held accountable and the real world application excuse. 

But I will add. Police kind of do have strict rules and shouldn't want to hurt people.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> That’s all great. But I still think using a system that utilizes bjj and other grappling techniques that are focused on LEO needs would be better for the majority of cops.



Yes and no. 

In theory you are correct. But there is no dedicated system that does that to the level of competancy that BJJ has. 

So instead of just finding a quality BJJ school and tweaking what you learn. 

You would need to find a quality DT focused instructor. That are quite simply rare as Hens teeth.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Police who do BJJ obviously like BJJ. But this video makes the point with just two words.
> 
> The officer mentions in training he is
> *
> held accountable.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Real world application is too often an excuse.


Yep its easy to roll around on a mat with defined rules without duty gear and adrenaline pumping as you fight for your life.  

I'm not saying BJJ is bad but its not the best choice for law enforcement.  if you are in a one on one fight grappling on the ground should be the last resort.  best case is you put him down and you stay up with the ability to create distance and move on to other weapons of needed.  Generally your fighting someone that hasnt been searched yet you dont know of he has a weapon.  You need to be able to create distance and draw if needed.
Truth is really there is no ONE size fits all.  a mixture of standing and grappling is far better then just BJJ or Just boxing or Just (insert style here).  So an MMA approach is far better.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> See the above post on being held accountable and the real world application excuse.
> 
> But I will add. Police kind of do have strict rules and shouldn't want to hurt people.


We do have rules.  I'm talking about the suspect your fighting that doesn't.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> What has “deadly” (or the rest of that) to do with the topic at hand?


This could get interesting...


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## Buka

@drop bear, it's kind of like if somebody tried to sell you a course on how to be a bouncer. You might reply to them that you have first hand experience and that you're all set.


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## JR 137

You guys have it all wrong. This guy’s got the answers you seek...



 

Side note: wow. This guy put on some lbs. I have too, but Dillman’s gotten out of control. Then again, how good of shape do you need to be in if you can throw a chi ball at will?


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## drop bear

Buka said:


> @drop bear, it's kind of like if somebody tried to sell you a course on how to be a bouncer. You might reply to them that you have first hand experience and that you're all set.



Exactly.

Where they really should be doing BJJ or something.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> In theory you are correct. But there is no dedicated system that does that to the level of competancy that BJJ has.
> 
> So instead of just finding a quality BJJ school and tweaking what you learn.
> 
> You would need to find a quality DT focused instructor. That are quite simply rare as Hens teeth.



But is training every cop to be proficient in BJJ practical?

Teaching them basic striking and basic LE defensive tactics is doable and the ones that get interested in BJJ is just lagniappe.

Are you familiar with SSGT.  That is what our instructors teach now.


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## Martial D

Hanzou said:


> Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.
> 
> Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ


BJJ is basically the art of maintaining control over someone on the ground. 

Maintaining control of suspects on the ground is a regular part of a cops job.

Seems like a no brainer.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> But is training every cop to be proficient in BJJ practical?
> 
> Teaching them basic striking and basic LE defensive tactics is doable and the ones that get interested in BJJ is just lagniappe.
> 
> Are you familiar with SSGT.  That is what our instructors teach now.



Not familiar with SSGT.

what level of ability would the instructor be at? So say I could train with pro MMA fighters or really competitive BJJ guns. Champion wrestlers or Judokas.

Guys who at least know their job at a really high level.

Back to this idea of being held accountable.


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Yep its easy to roll around on a mat with defined rules without duty gear and adrenaline pumping as you fight for your life.
> 
> I'm not saying BJJ is bad but its not the best choice for law enforcement.  if you are in a one on one fight grappling on the ground should be the last resort.  best case is you put him down and you stay up with the ability to create distance and move on to other weapons of needed.  Generally your fighting someone that hasnt been searched yet you dont know of he has a weapon.  You need to be able to create distance and draw if needed.
> Truth is really there is no ONE size fits all.  a mixture of standing and grappling is far better then just BJJ or Just boxing or Just (insert style here).  So an MMA approach is far better.



And this is the thing. BJJ isn't really optimum for MMA. But because the quality control is there. People get by.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Not familiar with SSGT.
> 
> what level of ability would the instructor be at? So say I could train with pro MMA fighters or really competitive BJJ guns. Champion wrestlers or Judokas.
> 
> Guys who at leas know their job at a really high level.



The main guy over DY training seems solid to me.

Certified instructor and trains bjj on his own time plus years of experience in LEO.  He is also the agencies use of force expert and who reviews all use of force applications.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> And this is the thing. BJJ isn't really optimum for MMA. But because the quality control is there. People get by.


Nor is it optimum for police work


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## Martial D

drop bear said:


> Not familiar with SSGT.
> 
> what level of ability would the instructor be at? So say I could train with pro MMA fighters or really competitive BJJ guns. Champion wrestlers or Judokas.
> 
> Guys who at least know their job at a really high level.


Exactly this. The problem with most SD stuff and even LEO based stuff is it's not trained with resistance at ANY level, much less a high level.

Hens teeth indeed.

At least BJJ, even if trained with restrictions, is trained properly against resistance, so you might actually be able to pull some of it off when it counts.


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## Buka

CB Jones said:


> That’s all great. But I still think using a system that utilizes bjj and other grappling techniques that are focused on LEO needs would be better for the majority of cops.



I was fortunate, I had carte blanche designing DT, which was based on a cop's needs. I was also running a dojo at the time - and all cops, fire fighters and emergency responders trained for free, where they could do more advanced things. A few of them took advantage. But most, especially friends, were like "Feels to much like being at work and you're not paying me." We still laugh about that.


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## CB Jones

Martial D said:


> Exactly this. The problem with most SD stuff and even LEO based stuff is it's not trained with resistance at ANY level, much less a high level.
> 
> Hens teeth indeed.
> 
> At least BJJ, even if trained with restrictions, is trained properly against resistance, so you might actually be able to pull some of it off when it counts.



That goes to the individuals.  Guys that are uninterested are still gonna brother in law it even if you put them in bjj


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## CB Jones

Buka said:


> I was fortunate, I had carte blanche designing DT, which was based on a cop's needs. I was also running a dojo at the time - and all cops, fire fighters and emergency responders trained for free, where they could do more advanced things. A few of them took advantage. But most, especially friends, were like "Feels to much like being at work and you're not paying me." We still laugh about that.



In the academy we did 6 weeks of boxing and grappling with a guarantee that at some point you was gonna get whooped no matter how good you were.


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Police who do BJJ obviously like BJJ. But this video makes the point with just two words.
> 
> The officer mentions in training he is
> *
> held accountable.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Real world application is too often an excuse.



Mike the cop is the guy in the OP as well. Didn't know he was a purple belt.


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## ballen0351

Buka said:


> I was fortunate, I had carte blanche designing DT, which was based on a cop's needs. I was also running a dojo at the time - and all cops, fire fighters and emergency responders trained for free, where they could do more advanced things. A few of them took advantage. But most, especially friends, were like "Feels to much like being at work and you're not paying me." We still laugh about that.


yep, that's the biggest roadblock getting them to show up.  You can't force them without paying them.  Then it's not fun anymore and its just more mandatory training that they go through the motions until its time to go home or worse they get "Injured" and now its a workers comp issue.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Mike the cop is the guy in the OP as well. Didn't know he was a purple belt.


I think he just got it not long ago,  He does some really funny videos if you like cop humor.  He's been pushing BJJ hard lately on his site.


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Nor is it optimum for police work



Interestingly, Bjj instructors are constantly being hired for MMA, Military, and Police training.

Much to the chagrin of the SD folks out there.


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## Hanzou

Martial D said:


> BJJ is basically the art of maintaining control over someone on the ground.
> 
> Maintaining control of suspects on the ground is a regular part of a cops job.
> 
> Seems like a no brainer.



BJJ helps when you have to tussle with someone on your feet as well.  Gjj is especially good with dealing with people from the clench.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Interestingly, Bjj instructors are constantly being hired for MMA, Military, and Police training.
> 
> Much to the chagrin of the SD folks out there.


Im not saying its bad or dont do it.  Im just saying its not the total end all be all for law enforcement.  It has its place in the tool box.

My biggest issue with BJJ for making an arrest or self-defense is getting on the ground.  Generally when the SHTF its in a less than desirable location like the side of a highway with cars flying by at 60 mph or in someone's living room when your alone and have no idea who else is in the house or where the weapons are.  Your usually fighting someone you haven't searched yet and don't know if they have weapons. So best case for these is to strike hard and get distance then move on to distance control weapon like a taser or OC Spray or Gun depending on the situation.  Also when rolling around on the ground both me and the suspect are now the same distance away from my gun, my taser, my OC Spray.  
BUT like I said Id rather them train in something anything really as opposed to nothing at all like a vast majority of cops today.


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## Martial D

CB Jones said:


> That goes to the individuals.  Guys that are uninterested are still gonna brother in law it even if you put them in bjj


Whether or not they feel like doing it is neither here nor there with regards to the efficacy of the training though...


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Im not saying its bad or dont do it.  Im just saying its not the total end all be all for law enforcement.  It has its place in the tool box.
> 
> My biggest issue with BJJ for making an arrest or self-defense is getting on the ground.  Generally when the SHTF its in a less than desirable location like the side of a highway with cars flying by at 60 mph or in someone's living room when your alone and have no idea who else is in the house or where the weapons are.  Your usually fighting someone you haven't searched yet and don't know if they have weapons. So best case for these is to strike hard and get distance then move on to distance control weapon like a taser or OC Spray or Gun depending on the situation.  Also when rolling around on the ground both me and the suspect are now the same distance away from my gun, my taser, my OC Spray.
> BUT like I said Id rather them train in something anything really as opposed to nothing at all like a vast majority of cops today.



Oh yeah I completely agree with you. I was mainly talking about how SD schools aren't generally happy that Bjj is even considered a part of the conversation because it is mainly a sport. There's a lot of money to be made with police and military contracts and some people in the SD business don't want a guy in a gi to get that money.

With that said, I watched the video in the OP with the sound on, and its pretty hard to argue that this situation...











..couldn't have used some Bjj.


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## Headhunter

Buka said:


> I'm the wrong one to ask because I think everyone should train.
> 
> But....in the real world, in order to get cops to train a Martial Art you pretty much have to be paying them overtime.


Pretty much yeah. I train with a couple police and I spoke to them about this and they said they cover very basic stuff in training then they have a refresher course once a year....the reason being the more time they spend in a gym the less police there's going to be on the streets. Now that's just where I am it may be different in other places


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Mike the cop is the guy in the OP as well. Didn't know he was a purple belt.



Yeah. Lots of cops do the beej.  We have a couple of decent ones. 

I don't know if our situation is different but cops here get shifted about a bit. And so bjj is a bit more accessible.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Oh yeah I completely agree with you. I was mainly talking about how SD schools aren't generally happy that Bjj is even considered a part of the conversation because it is mainly a sport. There's a lot of money to be made with police and military contracts and some people in the SD business don't want a guy in a gi to get that money.
> 
> With that said, I watched the video in the OP with the sound on, and its pretty hard to argue that this situation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..couldn't have used some Bjj.



The issue specifically there is you also need more than one guy or stuff turns pear shaped. You can't expect a cop to out fight everyone that is out there 

And I have had that conversation before as well.


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## Headhunter

CB Jones said:


> Would be better off learning boxing and training regularly on Defensive Tactics that have restraint, escorting, handcuffing, and weapon retention in mind.


What use is boxing....you punch a guy with a Mike Tyson style right hook then you get sued like crazy


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## lklawson

Buka said:


> I'm the wrong one to ask because I think everyone should train.
> 
> But....in the real world, in order to get cops to train a Martial Art you pretty much have to be paying them overtime.


 I've worked with any number of cops who paid for their own martial arts training.  personally, I think they should be reimbursed for it, but that's not usually how it works.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> ..couldn't have used some Bjj.


Yeah once it got to that point if he had some basic ground skills it could have been different.  Alot of things went wrong In that case it shouldn't have even ended up that far.


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## CB Jones

Before we get too far in the weeds.

If we are talking about What should be REQUIRED then

Again in my opinion:  boxing and LE defensive tactics.

BJJ is great but should not be required.


Headhunter said:


> What use is boxing....you punch a guy with a Mike Tyson style right hook then you get sued like crazy



Nothing says an officer cannot punch someone that is assaultive and all im just talking about is just teaching the basics...how to punch, cover up etc.... also they get some experience on what it feels to get rocked.


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## ballen0351

CB Jones said:


> Nothing says an officer cannot punch someone that is assaultive and all im just talking about is just teaching the basics...how to punch, cover up etc.... also they get some experience on what it feels to get rocked.


Yep, we had too in my academy.  We had to line up and the instructor walked down the line and punched us in the face.  3 people out of the 60ish in my class quit right then.  Said this wasn't for them and they left.


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## TMA17

The problem I've seen from many SD schools and places, even the Krav schools, is the lack of quality due to the lack of pressure testing.  If the pressure testing is good, then your quality of students will be higher.  The really good quality Krav place near me offers what they call L.A.C.E. – Ladies Awareness, Confidence & Empowerment.  I'd be curious how  hard they push them and how much resistance they are given.

If I were a cop, I'd be contemplating the same 3 arts I've been discussing the last few months - Judo, BJJ and Wrestling.  Reality is you can't go wrong with any of those 3.  BJJ is clearly more accessible.  I'd say Judo/Wrestling "may" be more idea in the sense you get better stand up to avoid ground.  Obviously BJJ is best for the ground.

To be a complete fighter there is no getting around having both striking and a ground game. It becomes a matter of preference and availability.

*Between Judo, Wrestling and BJJ, which would allow someone to more competent the quickest?  In other words, if you taught someone 6-12 months of BJJ, Judo or Wrestling, which would provide you the most attributes the fastest?  Time is money and any more time than that would be not ideal for LE.


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## Kung Fu Wang

For cops, the following MA skill may suit them better.


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## Hanzou

TMA17 said:


> The problem I've seen from many SD schools and places, even the Krav schools, is the lack of quality due to the lack of pressure testing.  If the pressure testing is good, then your quality of students will be higher.  The really good quality Krav place near me offers what they call L.A.C.E. – Ladies Awareness, Confidence & Empowerment.  I'd be curious how  hard they push them and how much resistance they are given.
> 
> If I were a cop, I'd be contemplating the same 3 arts I've been discussing the last few months - Judo, BJJ and Wrestling.  Reality is you can't go wrong with any of those 3.  BJJ is clearly more accessible.  I'd say Judo/Wrestling "may" be more idea in the sense you get better stand up to avoid ground.  Obviously BJJ is best for the ground.
> 
> To be a complete fighter there is no getting around having both striking and a ground game. It becomes a matter of preference and availability.



Not only that, but as @drop bear said, there's a matter of quality control. There simply isnt many bad Judo, Wrestling, and Bjj schools out there because there's too much contact and it's too easy to recognize when someone doesn't know what they're doing. I've seen some very questionable stuff out of some Krav practicioners.

One interesting thing about BJJ is that women roll with men much larger than themselves. So they're getting a pretty good idea of what it's like to grapple with a man trying to impose their will on them.



> *Between Judo, Wrestling and BJJ, which would allow someone to more competent the quickest?  In other words, if you taught someone 6-12 months of BJJ, Judo or Wrestling, which would provide you the most attributes the fastest?  Time is money and any more time than that would be not ideal for LE.



Judo is definitely the hardest, but heaven help anyone who is on the recieving end of a Judo throw. I would say wrestling is the easiest. However in many BJJ schooIs you're going to get some spill-over of all three.


----------



## JR 137

Hanzou said:


> Not only that, but as @drop bear said, there's a matter of quality control. There simply isnt many bad Judo, Wrestling, and Bjj schools out there because there's too much contact and it's too easy to recognize when someone doesn't know what they're doing. I've seen some very questionable stuff out of some Krav practicioners.
> 
> One interesting thing about BJJ is that women roll with men much larger than themselves. So they're getting a pretty good idea of what it's like to grapple with a man trying to impose their will on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Judo is definitely the hardest, but heaven help anyone who is on the recieving end of a Judo throw. I would say wrestling is the easiest. However in many BJJ schooIs you're going to get some spill-over of all three.


I haven’t done BJJ nor Judo, but have you wrestled? Trust me, there’s a steep learning curve. Guys wouldn’t get competitive for at least a year*. If you’ve done all three and found that, then I respect your opinion. I have no opinion because I only know wrestling.

From what I’ve heard, you can spend your first 3-6 in Judo just learning how to fall.

I don’t know the progression in BJJ. 

*From my experience wrestling and coaching. They’d win a few matches their first season, but they’d be against people with equal or lesser experience. Even the “tough kids” would get destroyed by someone with a year under their belt.


----------



## TMA17

In Judo I was throwing the first 2 weeks.  Not well, but able to do it.  We practiced falling every class.  To become extremely proficient it takes a long time and there are so many throws and takedowns to learn.  I guess they all have a high learning curve.  BJJ is very intricate and technical to me. Lot of different small moves.  I found that to be the hardest of what i have tried.  It also depends who your partner is.  I haven't spent nearly enough time in either to really know for sure though.


----------



## CB Jones

Hanzou said:


> With that said, I watched the video in the OP with the sound on, and its pretty hard to argue that this situation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..couldn't have used some Bjj.



He actually didn't need BJJ.

He was in position.  He just needed to maintain grip on the left wrist, step over his body and put weight on the back of the upper arm and he would have been in position to have the shoulder lock for handcuffing from the prone position.

Instead he let go of his wrist and moved around to his head while dropping to his knees.



Maybe a few hammer fists to the ear for good measure as well.


----------



## CB Jones

I was simply trying to administer a Brachial Stun from a hammer fist in an attempt to restrain him but his ear and temple got in the way a dozen times.....


----------



## pdg

ballen0351 said:


> Also when rolling around on the ground both me and the suspect are now the same distance away from my gun, my taser, my OC Spray.



Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?

That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...


----------



## Buka

CB Jones said:


> I was simply trying to administer a Brachial Stun from a hammer fist in an attempt to restrain him but his ear and temple got in the way a dozen times.....



The Bastard!


----------



## ballen0351

pdg said:


> Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?
> 
> That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...


I'm not willing to trust my life to some biometric trigger that may or may not work when I need it or when I'm wearing gloves because it cold or because I am about to search someone and now my fancy biometric lock on my gun won't work.  
Perhaps someday in the future someone can make a reliable system but nothing I've seen available now is appropriate for law enforcement


----------



## Hanzou

JR 137 said:


> I haven’t done BJJ nor Judo, but have you wrestled? Trust me, there’s a steep learning curve. Guys wouldn’t get competitive for at least a year*. If you’ve done all three and found that, then I respect your opinion. I have no opinion because I only know wrestling.
> 
> From what I’ve heard, you can spend your first 3-6 in Judo just learning how to fall.
> 
> I don’t know the progression in BJJ.
> 
> *From my experience wrestling and coaching. They’d win a few matches their first season, but they’d be against people with equal or lesser experience. Even the “tough kids” would get destroyed by someone with a year under their belt.



I've learned some wrestling from training with wrestlers, and I've found that I picked up the wrestling takedowns and pins very quickly. That could be because of my Bjj and football background. I don't know. I'll take your word that wrestling might be tougher to learn. I just know that Judo is highly technical, while Bjj is teaching you how to fight on a different plane than what you're used to, and that can throw some people for a loop. Wrestling (at least to me) seemed a lot more intuitive and natural than either.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?
> 
> That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...



Biometric triggers are way way way too unreliable to trust with my life.


----------



## Hanzou

CB Jones said:


> He actually didn't need BJJ.
> 
> He was in position.  He just needed to maintain grip on the left wrist, step over his body and put weight on the back of the upper arm and he would have been in position to have the shoulder lock for handcuffing from the prone position.
> 
> Instead he let go of his wrist and moved around to his head while dropping to his knees.
> 
> Maybe a few hammer fists to the ear for good measure as well.



I think that's what he was going for. He was attempting to flatten him out, but unfortunately the guy was laying on his side with his arms stretched out which made reaching for the wrist tough. From that position he could have utilized the BJJ modified mount that would have controlled the guy without the cop having to do much of anything. From the modified you got multiple submissions you can do that would have taken that guy out without socking him or shooting him.

Hammer fists? Not necessary.


----------



## pdg

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not willing to trust my life to some biometric trigger that may or may not work when I need it or when I'm wearing gloves because it cold or because I am about to search someone and now my fancy biometric lock on my gun won't work.
> Perhaps someday in the future someone can make a reliable system but nothing I've seen available now is appropriate for law enforcement



I might be wrong, but I read into that statement that if a biometric trigger control was reliable you would use it.

That's a start if so.

Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.

Could be restricted to one user, or "any authorised". You could restrict the operation to people who are trained in it's use, or those above a certain grade, or those in specialist units - whatever.

Yeah ok, it would be 'hackable' (because that's always brought up sometime with any tech), but it's a whole lot better than "I hope I can stop him grabbing my gun".


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> Biometric triggers are way way way too unreliable to trust with my life.



Right now I'd agree.

But I think there's a damn good case for development.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.



No. Those are, also, not anywhere near reliable enough to trust with my life. What happens when you need to shoot with your left hand? What happens when the bracelet is damaged?
Pretty much anything that adds complexity is going to be a non-starter.


----------



## JR 137

Hanzou said:


> I've learned some wrestling from training with wrestlers, and I've found that I picked up the wrestling takedowns and pins very quickly. That could be because of my Bjj and football background. I don't know. I'll take your word that wrestling might be tougher to learn. I just know that Judo is highly technical, while Bjj is teaching you how to fight on a different plane than what you're used to, and that can throw some people for a loop. Wrestling (at least to me) seemed a lot more intuitive and natural than either.


I’d attribute that to the previous experience. I’ve had a few guys come from MMA. They did quite well initially, compared to first year guys without any experience (football players included).

They all got to a point where the MMA experience didn’t carry them much further. Just like my wrestling friends who started BJJ - they were well ahead of BJJ white belts who started at the same time, but hit that preverbial wall when going up against higher blue belts and up. They had to unlearn some ingrained habits, like falling to your stomach rather than your back, and not locking their hands unless they were on their feet or had a pinning combination.


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> No. Those are, also, not anywhere near reliable enough to trust with my life. What happens when you need to shoot with your left hand? What happens when the bracelet is damaged?
> Pretty much anything that adds complexity is going to be a non-starter.



Who said anything about a bracelet?

Also, you're basing your opinion entirely on what's available right now.

If I was only basing this on what's available right now I'd say it's a silly idea too - but next year? In 3 years?

Scenario:

You're cuffing someone, you've got their back (either on the ground or against a car or something), you're keeping your gun away from them.

Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.

Wouldn't it be nice if the gun refused to fire because it didn't recognise them?

So they run away - wouldn't it also be nice if you could track the location of your gun and go pick it up, along with the guy who took it?

(Oh, and if yours has a mechanical failure, like a misfire or a jam, you can still use your partner's or another colleague's, because those are programmed to recognise you too.)



I dunno, I'm not "over there" - maybe that system oppresses their criminal rights or something...


----------



## ballen0351

pdg said:


> I might be wrong, but I read into that statement that if a biometric trigger control was reliable you would use it.
> 
> That's a start if so.


I wouldn't willingly but if the PD decided to use them the officers would have a choice to use it or quit.  It won't apply to me I'm done on Jan 1st.  



> Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.
> 
> Could be restricted to one user, or "any authorised". You could restrict the operation to people who are trained in it's use, or those above a certain grade, or those in specialist units - whatever.
> 
> Yeah ok, it would be 'hackable' (because that's always brought up sometime with any tech), but it's a whole lot better than "I hope I can stop him grabbing my gun".


Nothing available today would work but who knows what will be on the horizon in 15 or 20 years.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> Who said anything about a bracelet?



You sure as hell aren't implanting anything. Which means you'd have to wear something.



> Also, you're basing your opinion entirely on what's available right now.



Well, if you want to turn this into a fantasy, ok.


> Scenario:
> 
> You're cuffing someone, you've got their back (either on the ground or against a car or something), you're keeping your gun away from them.
> 
> Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.



Scenario: You possess even marginal situational awareness, so this doesn't happen.
You're also wearing a holster with a retention device, which would also prevent this.
And since your scenario includes a partner, your partner prevents it.

Oh wait, you didn't want to keep this real. Sorry. 

I'll use my telekinetic powers to keep the trigger from moving.


----------



## ballen0351

pdg said:


> You're cuffing someone, you've got their back (either on the ground or against a car or something), you're keeping your gun away from them.
> 
> Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.


Its generally not that simple most PDs are running triple retention holsters and the officer shouldn't be so focused on just the one bad guy they should also be aware of the "Friend" coming up behind them but I get your point.  Which is why I said grappling arts like BJJ are not optimal for law enforcement. I would rather create distance as soon as the "friend" tried to get my gun. Then deal with them at a distance with other available means like a taser or OC.  


> Wouldn't it be nice if the gun refused to fire because it didn't recognise them?
> 
> So they run away - wouldn't it also be nice if you could track the location of your gun and go pick it up, along with the guy who took it?
> 
> (Oh, and if yours has a mechanical failure, like a misfire or a jam, you can still use your partner's or another colleague's, because those are programmed to recognise you too.)


Would it be nice sure Im just not sure how to make it reliable at this time


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I haven’t done BJJ nor Judo, but have you wrestled? Trust me, there’s a steep learning curve. Guys wouldn’t get competitive for at least a year*. If you’ve done all three and found that, then I respect your opinion. I have no opinion because I only know wrestling.
> 
> From what I’ve heard, you can spend your first 3-6 in Judo just learning how to fall.
> 
> I don’t know the progression in BJJ.
> 
> *From my experience wrestling and coaching. They’d win a few matches their first season, but they’d be against people with equal or lesser experience. Even the “tough kids” would get destroyed by someone with a year under their belt.


I don’t know wrestling, but here’s my take based on what exposure I have to BJJ and Judo. 

If Judo is taught with a focus toward immediate effectiveness (rather than quickest competitiveness), a couple of throws, takedown defense, and a bit of ground work can be learned to usefulness in a few months (with other learning also occurring for longer-term development). 

If the same approach is taken in BJJ, a couple of takedowns, two mount escapes, basic side control and a simple guard pass can also be trained to usefulness in a few months. 

I’d give an edge to BJJ in what can be trained quickly to usefulness in that time.


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, if you want to turn this into a fantasy, ok.



And here is the luddite issue.

10-15 years ago, it was fantasy to have a fully functioning powerful computer in the palm of your hand on which you could watch TV in town using wireless data (and not analogue broadcast).

50 years ago automatic doors were fantasy outside of the starship enterprise (and those were operated by people in the walls).

A radiogram with pictures? Fantasy.

Lamps you don't fill with gas? That'll never happen.

At one time, it was fantasy to think you could have a carriage not propelled by horses.

Soaring with the birds? Fantasy mate, people can't fly.


Everything is fantasy until you can buy it in a supermarket.


----------



## CB Jones

Hanzou said:


> I think that's what he was going for. He was attempting to flatten him out, but unfortunately the guy was laying on his side with his arms stretched out which made reaching for the wrist tough.



He had the wrist but let it go to try and transition around to his head(thats where he really screwed up.  He was ok.....control of the wrist, elbow up and bent at 90 degree downward....he just needed to put his arm on the back of the upper arm step over and use the arm bar to roll him prone....then transistion into the standard shoulder lock for handcuffing.



Hanzou said:


> From that position he could have utilized the BJJ modified mount that would have controlled the guy without the cop having to do much of anything.



Most DT systems teach pretty similar tactic using a shoulder lock that allows you to controll the guy, free up you hands to get your cuffs, and puts you in good position to handcuff him......but he did not stick to that and lost control when he moved around to the guys head.



Hanzou said:


> From the modified you got multiple submissions you can do that would have taken that guy out without socking him or shooting him.



You don't need multiple submissions....that does you no good.  You need control of him in a position that allows you to access your handcuffs and handcuff him.



Hanzou said:


> Hammer fists? Not necessary.



Very much disagree.  A couple of hammer fists in that position will often times make them turn away from the strikes which helps you roll them to the prone position for control and handcuffing.  The violator is actively resisting him which per allows the officer to use strikes against him.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> And here is the luddite issue.



There's nothing in my post that qualifies as being a luddite. I addressed both the reality and the fantasy. I don't doubt you can improve biometrics. I also think you're as likely to develop telekinesis as a biometric system people will willingly trust with their lives.


----------



## Hanzou

CB Jones said:


> He had the wrist but let it go to try and transition around to his head(thats where he really screwed up.  He was ok.....control of the wrist, elbow up and bent at 90 degree downward....he just needed to put his arm on the back of the upper arm step over and use the arm bar to roll him prone....then transistion into the standard shoulder lock for handcuffing.



Here's the problem, while I don't see where he had wrist control that doesn't matter because he didn't control the body. Wrist control means diddly squat if you don't control the body, or have a dominant position. Modified mount would have given him positional dominance where he could have more easily controlled his limbs.



> Most DT systems teach pretty similar tactic using a shoulder lock that allows you to controll the guy, free up you hands to get your cuffs, and puts you in good position to handcuff him......but he did not stick to that and lost control when he moved around to the guys head.



I think we both agree that once he shifted to attempt to control the head, he was screwed.



> You don't need multiple submissions....that does you no good.  You need control of him in a position that allows you to access your handcuffs and handcuff him.



When I said multiple submissions, I'm talking about having multiple options because you have positional dominance. Even if he rolls to his stomach or his back, you can maintain that positional dominance and do essentially whatever you want.



> Very much disagree.  A couple of hammer fists in that position will often times make them turn away from the strikes which helps you roll them to the prone position for control and handcuffing.  The violator is actively resisting him which per allows the officer to use strikes against him.



It also escalates the violence and lends itself to potential legal issues down the road. You don't need to use strikes to force someone to move the way you want them to move.


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> There's nothing in my post that qualifies as being a luddite. I addressed both the reality and the fantasy.



But the way you addressed it was resisting change due to mistrust.

Maybe our dictionaries are different, but that's essentially one of the definitions of luddite in mine.

I'm not using it as an insult, or a derogatory term - just a statement.



Dirty Dog said:


> I don't doubt you can improve biometrics. I also think you're as likely to develop telekinesis as a biometric system people will willingly trust with their lives.



We'll have to disagree on the second part.

Initially, you'll have mass rejection.

Within a few years it'll just be normal.

You'll always get people who "wish for the old way", but their numbers will inevitably decline due to attrition and conversion.

The same was said about trains you know - that they'd never be popular, nobody would trust them, if you travel at more than 20mph your eyes will burst out of the back of your head, etc.

I have absolutely no doubt it'll happen - maybe you'll convert, maybe you'll stick with your current thinking.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> It also escalates the violence and lends itself to potential legal issues down the road. You don't need to use strikes to force someone to move the way you want them to move.


Sometimes violence is needed.  The firefighter escalated the violence when he assaulted a taxi driver.  The problem here was the officer wasn't prepared for the violence.  He was off duty working a little OT at a cushy hotel just trying to earn some extra cash not actually expecting to have to do work and wasn't prepared for what happened.  I think had he been on duty and had the same mindset of being an on-duty officer at the time it would have ended differently.  Kansas City is a rough town so I assume this wasn't his first fight as a cop. I also read about this in another article that he was told the guy was a firefighter so I assume the officer lowered his guard, even more, thinking well we are all on the same team he's just drunk.
In my opinion, had he been mentally prepared for work and mentally prepared for battle he would have come at the guy stronger and ended it faster and harder and both would have gone home fine other than a few bumps and bruises on the fireman.  If you look at he video in the middle of the fight the cop even stops and starts talking to the wife instead of taking care of business because he wasn't ready for what happened


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Sometimes violence is needed.  The firefighter escalated the violence when he assaulted a taxi driver.  The problem here was the officer wasn't prepared for the violence.  He was off duty working a little OT at a cushy hotel just trying to earn some extra cash not actually expecting to have to do work and wasn't prepared for what happened.  I think had he been on duty and had the same mindset of being an on-duty officer at the time it would have ended differently.  Kansas City is a rough town so I assume this wasn't his first fight as a cop. I also read about this in another article that he was told the guy was a firefighter so I assume the officer lowered his guard, even more, thinking well we are all on the same team he's just drunk.
> In my opinion, had he been mentally prepared for work and mentally prepared for battle he would have come at the guy stronger and ended it faster and harder and both would have gone home fine other than a few bumps and bruises on the fireman.  If you look at he video in the middle of the fight the cop even stops and starts talking to the wife instead of taking care of business because he wasn't ready for what happened



I certainly agree that violence is sometimes needed. I also agree that the officer was justified in using deadly force in this situation. However, I disagree that you need to start bashing a man's head in when a relatively simple level of control is all that's needed.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> I certainly agree that violence is sometimes needed. I also agree that the officer was justified in using deadly force in this situation. However, I disagree that you need to start bashing a man's head in when a relatively simple level of control is all that's needed.


Of course, Im not saying bash his head in.  But a few well-placed strikes may have been the motivation needed for the guy to stop resisting.  But honestly, at this point, we are just armchair quarterbacking because its over.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I don’t know wrestling, but here’s my take based on what exposure I have to BJJ and Judo.
> 
> If Judo is taught with a focus toward immediate effectiveness (rather than quickest competitiveness), a couple of throws, takedown defense, and a bit of ground work can be learned to usefulness in a few months (with other learning also occurring for longer-term development).
> 
> If the same approach is taken in BJJ, a couple of takedowns, two mount escapes, basic side control and a simple guard pass can also be trained to usefulness in a few months.
> 
> I’d give an edge to BJJ in what can be trained quickly to usefulness in that time.


Off the bat, wrestling will teach a few takedowns/throws, sprawling, a few reversals and escapes, and a few pinning combinations.

Learning them is easy. Actually using them and not getting beat while trying is the tricky part. Those handful of moves you learn your first few months (more like your first 2 months) could be about 90% of what you’ll always use.


----------



## CB Jones

Hanzou said:


> Here's the problem, while I don't see where he had wrist control that doesn't matter because he didn't control the body. Wrist control means diddly squat if you don't control the body, or have a dominant position. Modified mount would have given him positional dominance where he could have more easily controlled his limbs.



I think we are thinking close to the same thing.

He had the wrist he only needed to step over to get in a dominant position to use arm bar to force him over into his stomach.  From there he can easily transistion to the shoulder lock used for handcuffing 



Hanzou said:


> It also escalates the violence and lends itself to potential legal issues down the road. You don't need to use strikes to force someone to move the way you want them to move



It already escalated to active resistance.  You don’t take chances.  You end it as quickly as possible.  Better a few strikes to the head and get control than lose control.


----------



## Hanzou

CB Jones said:


> I think we are thinking close to the same thing.
> 
> He had the wrist he only needed to step over to get in a dominant position to use arm bar to force him over into his stomach.  From there he can easily transistion to the shoulder lock used for handcuffing



I do think we're thinking along the same lines. I think my main point of contention is trying to control the entire body via a wrist grab. Especially when that person is bigger and stronger than you are.



> It already escalated to active resistance.  You don’t take chances.  You end it as quickly as possible.  Better a few strikes to the head and get control than lose control.



I was talking about restraining someone and then hitting them in the head with hammer strikes. That's not a good look and you can accomplish the same goal without strikes. Obviously once the cop got flipped over and started getting his face turned into hamburger all bets were off.


----------



## drop bear

pdg said:


> Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?
> 
> That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...



Have another cop there. With his own gun.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> He actually didn't need BJJ.
> 
> He was in position.  He just needed to maintain grip on the left wrist, step over his body and put weight on the back of the upper arm and he would have been in position to have the shoulder lock for handcuffing from the prone position.
> 
> Instead he let go of his wrist and moved around to his head while dropping to his knees.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a few hammer fists to the ear for good measure as well.



That arm bar doesn't exactly work great. That is why BJJ cop uses the knee ride. I used the hammer lock. But I have always found that a really hard way to roll a guy.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I think that's what he was going for. He was attempting to flatten him out, but unfortunately the guy was laying on his side with his arms stretched out which made reaching for the wrist tough. From that position he could have utilized the BJJ modified mount that would have controlled the guy without the cop having to do much of anything. From the modified you got multiple submissions you can do that would have taken that guy out without socking him or shooting him.
> 
> Hammer fists? Not necessary.



That is pretty much when you see a cop putting the boot in. They have generally run out of options and trying to get an arm.

Anyway kimouras. But you have to be good.


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> I’d attribute that to the previous experience. I’ve had a few guys come from MMA. They did quite well initially, compared to first year guys without any experience (football players included).
> 
> They all got to a point where the MMA experience didn’t carry them much further. Just like my wrestling friends who started BJJ - they were well ahead of BJJ white belts who started at the same time, but hit that preverbial wall when going up against higher blue belts and up. They had to unlearn some ingrained habits, like falling to your stomach rather than your back, and not locking their hands unless they were on their feet or had a pinning combination.



You would probably learn a double leg, single leg and knee knock to a functional level more quickly than just about any other throw.

Which means you could be wrestling people on to their back more quickly than just about any other art.

But to face a legit wrestler is a different prospect. And yes I have seen them toy with legit MMAers.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> That arm bar doesn't exactly work great. That is why BJJ cop uses the knee ride. I used the hammer lock. But I have always found that a really hard way to roll a guy.



Agree on the arm bar except the guy is already on the ground on his side with his elbow bent 90 degrees with hand down below the elbow.  It’s right there to be taken easy.

I prefer the hammer lock as well and what I prefer from a standing position.


----------



## ballen0351

When its all said and done it comes down to Don't get raging drunk on your wedding celebration and assault cab drivers but if you do and the police show up don't hit them either.  It generally doesn't work out well for you one way or another.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Agree on the arm bar except the guy is already on the ground on his side with his elbow bent 90 degrees with hand down below the elbow.  It’s right there to be taken easy.
> 
> I prefer the hammer lock as well and what I prefer from a standing position.



So I had another look.

Well so was the kimoura and the hammer lock. And they are both mechanically a more secure position than a straight arm bar.

Then the cop tried to drop the knee. And that kicked off the fight. Dude got pissed and decided head punching was the next step. 

Which is my issue with striking to secure a limb.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Which is my issue with striking to secure a limb.


I agree if you're not going to strike like you mean it then don't do it.  That was kind of a half-hearted attempt. Maybe because he knew he was being recorded or because he knew it was a firefighter and didn't want to hurt him or he just sucked at fighting not all cops are fighters and not all cops should be cops in the first place.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Well so was the kimoura and the hammer lock. And they are both mechanically a more secure position than a straight arm bar.



Fair enough.  Also I’m not meaning straight arm.  I don’t know the nomenclature.  I’m talking keeping the arm bent and using the bent arm for leverage to force him over onto his stomach.

But he still should have kept control of the arm and kept trying to force him to a prone position instead of letting go and moving to the head.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> When its all said and done it comes down to Don't get raging drunk on your wedding celebration and assault cab drivers but if you do and the police show up don't hit them either.  It generally doesn't work out well for you one way or another.



Yeah, I feel bad for the guy's family, but holy ****, he could have easily killed that cop. I think the reports were that the cop had multiple facial fractures.


----------



## Buka

Worked out this morning. Now I'm off to be a police officer.  

And if this happens to me -
_
Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head._

I'm pretty sure one of the other cops will just shoot it out of their hand.


----------



## CB Jones

Buka said:


> I'm pretty sure one of the other cops will just shoot it out of their hand



From the hip just like the Lone Ranger


----------



## dvcochran

CB Jones said:


> No.   If they want great but not necessary
> 
> 
> 
> To clarify:  The video is an example of poor and/or wrong defensive tactics and handcuffing.  He doesn’t need BJJ he just needs to use proper tactics


Like many videos, I wish we had seen what led up to where this video started. From what we see, no good protocol was followed. It appeared to be a big enough city that backup should have been available, however I remember more than a few calls where I could not get backup at all or soon enough. It is a tough spot when you know a camera is on you. 
It looked like he was turning to pin the guys head but never finished. Hard to say what was going through the officer mind at the time. It was a bigger guy with those arms that are hard to get cuffed behind the back especially when they are struggling. I was never a fan of going to the ground without some kind of submission planned. I think the officer panicked, ran out of gas, and apparently did not have the skills required for the perp. A very sad video. 
Back when I taught defensive tactics I stressed that it is a literal term that is made possible by offense. All the queue's, verbal, posture, timing, common sense, tactic, have to be taught. Sad that it takes something like this but I hope there was a big spike in training and participation from the other officers in that city.


----------



## pdg

Buka said:


> Worked out this morning. Now I'm off to be a police officer.
> 
> And if this happens to me -
> _
> Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head._
> 
> I'm pretty sure one of the other cops will just shoot it out of their hand.



Lucky enough to have onsite backup


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> You would probably learn a double leg, single leg and knee knock to a functional level more quickly than just about any other throw.
> 
> Which means you could be wrestling people on to their back more quickly than just about any other art.
> 
> But to face a legit wrestler is a different prospect. And yes I have seen them toy with legit MMAers.


We’d teach low single and double leg (where you shoot in/penetration step vs still standing) takedown; duck-under and head & arm throw from tie up; switch, sit-out-turn-in, and stand-up from bottom; and half-Nelson and bars from top. All fundamental, simple, and effective. Once they got good at those, either we’d teach them more, or they’d figure out more by having stuff done to them.

Using just those to a good level will make you pretty competitive.

As far as wrestlers mopping the mat with MMAers, it could happen the other way around under MMA rules.

Edit:  What’s a “knee knock?”


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> We’d teach low single and double leg (where you shoot in/penetration step vs still standing) takedown; duck-under and head & arm throw from tie up; switch, sit-out-turn-in, and stand-up from bottom; and half-Nelson and bars from top. All fundamental, simple, and effective. Once they got good at those, either we’d teach them more, or they’d figure out more by having stuff done to them.
> 
> Using just those to a good level will make you pretty competitive.
> 
> As far as wrestlers mopping the mat with MMAers, it could happen the other way around under MMA rules.
> 
> Edit:  What’s a “knee knock?”



I was  thinking as compared to a hip throw or something. You are proficient a lot quicker.

Take the back give the knee a tap and ride the guy in to the deck.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Of course, Im not saying bash his head in.  But a few well-placed strikes may have been the motivation needed for the guy to stop resisting.  But honestly, at this point, we are just armchair quarterbacking because its over.



The strike started him resisting.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Fair enough.  Also I’m not meaning straight arm.  I don’t know the nomenclature.  I’m talking keeping the arm bent and using the bent arm for leverage to force him over onto his stomach.
> 
> But he still should have kept control of the arm and kept trying to force him to a prone position instead of letting go and moving to the head.



Hammer lock or reinforced under hook?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> The strike started him resisting.


He was resisting the whole time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Off the bat, wrestling will teach a few takedowns/throws, sprawling, a few reversals and escapes, and a few pinning combinations.
> 
> Learning them is easy. Actually using them and not getting beat while trying is the tricky part. Those handful of moves you learn your first few months (more like your first 2 months) could be about 90% of what you’ll always use.


I tried to use phrasing to be clear, because there’s a confounding issue with training a sport: we tend to measure ability to use it against someone else in the sport. Take that same new wrestler, teach them those same starting moves. How quickly could they develop the skill necessary to use them on someone untrained? Of course, that comes somewhat quicker than their ability to use them in wrestling competition.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> That arm bar doesn't exactly work great. That is why BJJ cop uses the knee ride. I used the hammer lock. But I have always found that a really hard way to roll a guy.


Yeah, unless there’s some momentum in it (using it “on the bounce” after a takedown/throw), you lose the ability to control the shoulder, which you need in order to get the body to turn over.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I tried to use phrasing to be clear, because there’s a confounding issue with training a sport: we tend to measure ability to use it against someone else in the sport. Take that same new wrestler, teach them those same starting moves. How quickly could they develop the skill necessary to use them on someone untrained? Of course, that comes somewhat quicker than their ability to use them in wrestling competition.


You reminded me of when we used to do a 2-3 week unit of wrestling in high school (back when PE wasn’t co-ed). The teacher would ask me to teach a few basics. I taught single and double leg takedown, and a few other basics.

What a f’in $hit show. I’m genuinely laughing typing this remembering the circus. And honestly, it was pretty hard wrestling against a lot of the guys who didn’t know anything. Not the wimpy kids, but the strong kids who weren’t athletic. You’d get hurt trying to not hurt them. In a lot of ways it was easier wrestling guys with experience because they’d do things to get themselves out of trouble before they were in trouble, whereas the guys who didn’t know what was coming would basically panic hold on for dear life. They’d grab you at all weird angles and places and wouldn’t let go. For example, if you shot a low single leg takedown against a guy who knows what he’s doing, he’ll sprawl; if he doesn’t time it right he’ll turn to go to his stomach rather than his back; stuff like that. The untrained guys would try to grab around your neck like they were unknowingly doing a front guillotine choke and flop on their back taking you with them. It was like getting Jake “The Snake” Roberts’s DDT. They couldn’t figure out why those of us who wrestled hated wrestling with them. Or we’d throw them and end up knocking the wind out of them because they had no clue what was coming nor how to fall, then they’d get all pissed and want to fight after they caught their breath.

But the circus part...
It always turned into WWF stuff. One guy would manage to get another guy on his back, then one of the spectators would run in and drop an elbow. Guys were trying to pull off WWF suplexes and pile drivers, stuff like that. What was supposed to be a 2-3 week unit usually lasted 2-3 classes tops because the teacher got tired of it. My favorite one was a guy stood up on a table and Superfly Snuka’ed a guy who was wrestling another guy. One guy Hulk Hogan leg dropping a guy who had another guy on his back was pretty good too.

Yup. Only way to describe it was a f’in $hit show. Hilarious to everyone but the teacher. Amazing how no one got seriously hurt.

Thanks for the jogging my memory. It’s been hard to type this while I’m laughing. My daughter just asked my wife what I’m laughing about.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> He was resisting the whole time.



He jumped up and wacked the cop after he got knee dropped on.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> He jumped up and wacked the cop after he got knee dropped on.


They were already fighting before that.  The cop didnt just walk up to the guy already laying on the ground.  According to the officers statements during the investigation he approached the firefighter told him he was under arrest.  He tried to cuff him standing they started struggling and the officer took him down. That's when the video starts.  The firefighter was resisting the entire time.

So like I said "if" you are going to strike someone then strike them full force and mean it.  I remember my first defensive tactics instructor in the police academy use to say "If they shake your tree give them ALL your peaches"  meaning if your going to fight them dont go half hearted about it.  go hard or dont go.


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?
> 
> That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...


Biometrics is probably 25-50 years away from being reliable enough for a life-or-death, literally instant, 100% reliable solution.  Until then, it is a liability.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Hanzou

Definitely see the wrist grab attempts in this video (20 sec mark). A kimura lock or at least some sort of 2 on 1 grip would have done wonders here. I don't know why that cop thought he could control this guy's wrist with one hand.


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> I might be wrong, but I read into that statement that if a biometric trigger control was reliable you would use it.
> 
> That's a start if so.
> 
> Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.
> 
> Could be restricted to one user, or "any authorised". You could restrict the operation to people who are trained in it's use, or those above a certain grade, or those in specialist units - whatever.
> 
> Yeah ok, it would be 'hackable' (because that's always brought up sometime with any tech), but it's a whole lot better than "I hope I can stop him grabbing my gun".


Much the same issues as biometric with some extra problems along the way.

Think of it from a combination of an Access Security perspective (think military grade Top Secret rooms, not your smart phone) and combine that with an absolute requirement of 100% up time, 100% correct recognition & differentiation, and (literally) millisecond processing time requirements.   There is no technology on the the market that can fulfill the actual requirements and even the stuff that DARPA admits to working on 1) won't be theoretically available for decades and 2) still can't really fill the requirements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> Biometrics is probably 25-50 years away from being reliable enough for a life-or-death, literally instant, 100% reliable solution.  Until then, it is a liability.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I think 25-50 years away is a huge stretch.

More like 5-10, if that long.



lklawson said:


> Much the same issues as biometric with some extra problems along the way.
> 
> Think of it from a combination of an Access Security perspective (think military grade Top Secret rooms, not your smart phone) and combine that with an absolute requirement of 100% up time, 100% correct recognition & differentiation, and (literally) millisecond processing time requirements.   There is no technology on the the market that can fulfill the actual requirements and even the stuff that DARPA admits to working on 1) won't be theoretically available for decades and 2) still can't really fill the requirements.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



In response to the relevant portion of both posts - there exists not an analogue firearm that is 100% reliable right now, so using 100% as an absolute requirement is simply never possible.


As to processing speed, a simple ID check of the type required can happen (with existing tech) faster than you can pull a trigger anyway, so speed is really not the limiting factor.

Also your second message refers to "technology on the market" - I was never intending to mean introduction next Tuesday...


Of course, the one absolutely guaranteed way to stop all unlawful shootings is to uninvent firearms


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Definitely see the wrist grab attempts in this video (20 sec mark). A kimura lock or at least some sort of 2 on 1 grip would have done wonders here. I don't know why that cop thought he could control this guy's wrist with one hand.


It looked like he was trying to either get his radio or cuffs with his other hand or something like that.  Or he really just didnt know what to do.


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> I think 25-50 years away is a huge stretch.
> 
> More like 5-10, if that long.
> 
> 
> 
> In response to the relevant portion of both posts - there exists not an analogue firearm that is 100% reliable right now, so using 100% as an absolute requirement is simply never possible.
> 
> 
> As to processing speed, a simple ID check of the type required can happen (with existing tech) faster than you can pull a trigger anyway, so speed is really not the limiting factor.
> 
> Also your second message refers to "technology on the market" - I was never intending to mean introduction next Tuesday...
> 
> 
> Of course, the one absolutely guaranteed way to stop all unlawful shootings is to uninvent firearms


Because of both my hobbies (martial arts, including firearms) and my profession (IT contractor for DoD with a special emphasis on security) with expertise in both areas, I've been watching the press for and development of this technology since it was little more than a twinkle in the eye.  I keep a finger on the pulse of the different technologies proposed and developed for this theory (there are many).  It is my expert opinion that 10 years is not only a pipe dream but is similar to the way that "25 years" is always the number when researchers talk about sustainable energy positive fusion.

Very honestly, 25-50 years is optimistic and kinda depends on breakthroughs that are still theoretical in sensing technology, battery technology, and processing.  Take processing, for instance.  Yeah, the capability to process exists, but not in the size required or with the required durability.  There are at least two research paths I know of which could potentially get it where it needs to be, but one of them seems to be hitting a wall.  It's sort of related to the collapse of Moore's Law.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> Because of both my hobbies (martial arts, including firearms) and my profession (IT contractor for DoD with a special emphasis on security) with expertise in both areas, I've been watching the press for and development of this technology since it was little more than a twinkle in the eye.  I keep a finger on the pulse of the different technologies proposed and developed for this theory (there are many).  It is my expert opinion that 10 years is not only a pipe dream but is similar to the way that "25 years" is always the number when researchers talk about sustainable energy positive fusion.
> 
> Very honestly, 25-50 years is optimistic and kinda depends on breakthroughs that are still theoretical in sensing technology, battery technology, and processing.  Take processing, for instance.  Yeah, the capability to process exists, but not in the size required or with the required durability.  There are at least two research paths I know of which could potentially get it where it needs to be, but one of them seems to be hitting a wall.  It's sort of related to the collapse of Moore's Law.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



At least you're looking at it intelligently...

For the amount of processing and electrical power required I really don't think it's very far off at all.

Obviously, we can debate this all day, but neither of us can truly claim to be right.

All we can do is wait - either I'll be proved right in under a decade, you'll be proved right in 25-50 years, or we'll both be proved wrong in 10-25 years


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> All we can do is wait - either I'll be proved right in under a decade, you'll be proved right in 25-50 years, or we'll both be proved wrong in 10-25 years


Hard to argue that.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## CB Jones

pdg said:


> At least you're looking at it intelligently...
> 
> For the amount of processing and electrical power required I really don't think it's very far off at all.
> 
> Obviously, we can debate this all day, but neither of us can truly claim to be right.
> 
> All we can do is wait - either I'll be proved right in under a decade, you'll be proved right in 25-50 years, or we'll both be proved wrong in 10-25 years



I agree with @lklawson 

The problems with it:

Money.....hell many agencies make officers provide their own firearms


----------



## lklawson

CB Jones said:


> I agree with @lklawson
> 
> The problems with it:
> 
> Money.....hell many agencies make officers provide their own firearms


Yeah, I know.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## CB Jones

lklawson said:


> Yeah, I know.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I know one rural sheriffs office that probably close to a third of their deputies carry Hi-Points.


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> I agree with @lklawson
> 
> The problems with it:
> 
> Money.....hell many agencies make officers provide their own firearms


I thought only mall cops had to provide their own firearms


----------



## lklawson

CB Jones said:


> I know one rural sheriffs office that probably close to a third of their deputies carry Hi-Points.


Not a bad gun.  I like them.  Actually own one.  Good for a inexpensive night stand gun and range plinker.  Wouldn't be among my top 10 choices for a duty weapon.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> In response to the relevant portion of both posts - there exists not an analogue firearm that is 100% reliable right now, so using 100% as an absolute requirement is simply never possible.



I can, and do, put thousands of rounds through individual handguns without a single failure. Not a one. Zero. Zilch.
My EDC gun has, as an estimate, something like 10,000 rounds through it without a failure.
That's close enough to 100% for me.
On the other hand, the biometric systems on the drug boxes at work (which I personally access 20-30 times a shift, easily) fail with remarkable regularity. At least 20% of the time, I have to give it the finger at least twice before it will open. And that's ignoring how long it takes.


----------



## Dirty Dog

JR 137 said:


> I thought only mall cops had to provide their own firearms



One of our kids is a cop in a city of about 110,000, which has long been known to be the most violent city in Colorado.
His department expects officers to provide their own firearms.


----------



## JR 137

Perhaps a stupid question to all the LEOs and anyone else in the know...

If you have to provide your own firearm, can you choose what you carry, are you given a list of a few you must use, or do you have to buy something specific?

What about ammo? Buy that too?

It wouldn’t be surprising for police buy their own firearm in a 3rd world country. Here in the US? Outrageous IMO. Shouldn’t they petition Trump? He’s claimed many times to take care of the military and veterans.

Edit - this is NOT political. I’m neither bashing nor praising the president. I’d say shouldn’t they petition WHOEVER is sitting in the Oval Office. I’d have said Clinton if she was president.


----------



## TMA17




----------



## lklawson

JR 137 said:


> Perhaps a stupid question to all the LEOs and anyone else in the know...
> 
> If you have to provide your own firearm, can you choose what you carry, are you given a list of a few you must use, or do you have to buy something specific?
> 
> What about ammo? Buy that too?


Depends on the PD.  Some have very specific guidelines, some have less to none.



> It wouldn’t be surprising for police buy their own firearm in a 3rd world country. Here in the US? Outrageous IMO.


It's actually very common.



> Shouldn’t they petition Trump? He’s claimed many times to take care of the military and veterans.


In general, the Feds have little, and should have little IMO, say in how State and Local PD's run their biz.  Outside of some things which it seems that most people generally think they want the feds to meddle in, such as anti-corruption, it just doesn't seem wise to me to have some fed setting standards.  OTOH, it is a long standing tradition for the feds to give grants for equipment & training and offer free/reduced price military equipment.  The whole "militarization of the police" thing when they get armored vehicles, surplus M4's, &tc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## CB Jones

JR 137 said:


> Perhaps a stupid question to all the LEOs and anyone else in the know...
> 
> If you have to provide your own firearm, can you choose what you carry, are you given a list of a few you must use, or do you have to buy something specific?
> 
> What about ammo? Buy that too?



Depends on the agency.

The agency I work for provides a duty weapon, a backup weapon, and all ammo.  But there is a list of allowed firearms and ammo you can buy if want to carry something different.

Some agencies do not issue but you are required to carry something from their allowed list.

Some agencies allow you to carry whatever you want.

To my knowledge all agencies provide ammo.


----------



## Buka

We got into a knock down, drag out last night with a big, strong Texas boy. I had his legs figure foured, while five other cops were trying to get his hands out from under his chest to cuff him. He was cranked on something, impervious to any pain that might be used to get him to comply. As someone told me years ago, these situations sometime look like five monkeys trying to screw a football.

It was a nine minute battle, right under a security camera. Nine minutes is a long time. While it was going on this thread actually popped into my head. I came to the conclusion that everything you've learned can help in these kind of situations. But I think that training against non compliant partners helps more than anything else.


----------



## pdg

Buka said:


> Nine minutes is a long time.



In that sort of situation, 9 minutes must be approaching an eternity...


----------



## drop bear

TMA17 said:


>



I think there is too much space in that double bicep control.

It means if you loose initiative for a second you can get popped.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> He was resisting the whole time.



I read the response. But can't find it to quote in context.

If I am going to start hitting a guy I like to do it from a position he can't fight back from.

So that if he goes from. "You can't have my arm" to "I am going to unscrew your head" he is less able to.

Position before submission.

So for me it is not really him resisting as more when he cracked the sads and wanted to make a real fight of it.

Which if you hit a guy you need to be prepared for a response.

So that I am not really relying on striking to comply the guy out of desperation.
(In that I hit him or he gets up)

I strike from a safe position. I can do it all day until he gives the arm.





About 50seconds in. He is not in danger just pops away until the guy moves the arm.


----------



## ballen0351

JR 137 said:


> Shouldn’t they petition Trump? He’s claimed many times to take care of the military and veterans.
> 
> Edit - this is NOT political. I’m neither bashing nor praising the president. I’d say shouldn’t they petition WHOEVER is sitting in the Oval Office. I’d have said Clinton if she was president.


There are programs out there where the feds loan PDs weapons.  There are a few small PDs where I live that are on that program.  They get the guns (Glocks and M16s) and once a year they must send the feds an invoice with pictures of each gun and its serial number to prove they still have it.  I've never worked for a dept on that program so I dont know all the details but a friend of mines does and  he was telling me about it.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I read the response. But can't find it to quote in context.
> 
> If I am going to start hitting a guy I like to do it from a position he can't fight back from.
> 
> So that if he goes from. "You can't have my arm" to "I am going to unscrew your head" he is less able to.
> 
> Position before submission.
> 
> So for me it is not really him resisting as more when he cracked the sads and wanted to make a real fight of it.
> 
> Which if you hit a guy you need to be prepared for a response.
> 
> So that I am not really relying on striking to comply the guy out of desperation.
> (In that I hit him or he gets up)
> 
> I strike from a safe position. I can do it all day until he gives the arm.


I'm not in disagreement with you.  I'm simply saying "IF" striking is the route you choose to take then dont half *** it.  Just like if some type of grappling technique is the route you choose then dont half *** it.  
As my career comes to an end in 2 weeks I look back over the last two decades and in the early years I relied heavy on strikes mainly because I was young and strong and because that's how I was taught back then.  there were less cameras and social media wasnt a real big thing.  As I got older and actually trained in some grappling skills and with the influx of cameras and World Star I tend to default more towards grappling now.  I think both will work as long as you know what your doing and do it 100% not half assed


----------



## CB Jones

ballen0351 said:


> There are programs out there where the feds loan PDs weapons.  There are a few small PDs where I live that are on that program.  They get the guns (Glocks and M16s) and once a year they must send the feds an invoice with pictures of each gun and its serial number to prove they still have it.  I've never worked for a dept on that program so I dont know all the details but a friend of mines does and  he was telling me about it.



One year they issued us Govt surplus M16s.....pretty sure they were Vietnam era, lol. Luckily a year later the department issued us new Bushmaster ARs.


----------



## JR 137

lklawson said:


> Depends on the PD.  Some have very specific guidelines, some have less to none.
> 
> It's actually very common.
> 
> In general, the Feds have little, and should have little IMO, say in how State and Local PD's run their biz.  Outside of some things which it seems that most people generally think they want the feds to meddle in, such as anti-corruption, it just doesn't seem wise to me to have some fed setting standards.  OTOH, it is a long standing tradition for the feds to give grants for equipment & training and offer free/reduced price military equipment.  The whole "militarization of the police" thing when they get armored vehicles, surplus M4's, &tc.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I was thinking Fed money, not standards in what they do.

Then again, with Fed money comes Fed strings. Some people in charge have fewer strings, others have so many that everyone involved regrets taking a dime of the money and in retrospect was so much better off before they took it. Been there, seen that a few times in education.


----------



## jks9199

JR 137 said:


> Perhaps a stupid question to all the LEOs and anyone else in the know...
> 
> If you have to provide your own firearm, can you choose what you carry, are you given a list of a few you must use, or do you have to buy something specific?
> 
> What about ammo? Buy that too?
> 
> It wouldn’t be surprising for police buy their own firearm in a 3rd world country. Here in the US? Outrageous IMO. Shouldn’t they petition Trump? He’s claimed many times to take care of the military and veterans.
> 
> Edit - this is NOT political. I’m neither bashing nor praising the president. I’d say shouldn’t they petition WHOEVER is sitting in the Oval Office. I’d have said Clinton if she was president.


Most PDs in the US are under 20 people; I'd have to double check to be sure, but I believe most are actually under 10.  Many still do not provide much of the uniforms and gear required, and that can include the guns.  Generally, if they don't pay for it, many will require the officer to choose from a list of approved firearms and calibers.  Some don't care... buy what you want, qualify with it, and you're good to go.


----------



## Buka

I used to belong to an organizaion that had Uzi carbines. When they changed to M-14s they melted the Uzis instead of giving them to a department that might want them. They said it was a liability issue. 
I disagreed, I told them it was an asshat issue.


----------



## JR 137

Buka said:


> I used to belong to an organizaion that had Uzi carbines. When they changed to M-14s they melted the Uzis instead of giving them to a department that might want them. They said it was a liability issue.
> I disagreed, I told them it was an asshat issue.


These lawyers and the people who want to sue for absurd things are out of control.

Try giving infant and toddler toys to a goodwill/thrift store. They won’t take anything due to liability. Even stuff still sealed in the original box. I guess it’s better to throw it away than try to do the right thing by trying to get it to someone who can actually use it. If baby toys are a liability, weapons and the like have zero chance.


----------



## jks9199

Going back to the original question...

Should cops learn BJJ?  

Nope.

Nor should they learn Taekwondo, Bando, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Karate, Aikido, Krav Maga, or any other specific martial art.

Police Control Tactics or Defensive Tactics are designed around their job and their mission.  They balance training time, and liability with use of force laws, officer safety, and the likelihood of controlling a subject without injuring them.  They tend to be selected and pulled from various martial arts, with different styles coming in vogue at various times, and depending on the interests of various lead instructors.  In the best programs, they have a unifying set of principles that are consistent throughout.  In some others... they aren't.

At various times, programs like Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT), KMWW Force Protection Program (and other Krav based models), Gracie Combatives (and programs from BJJ splits), and other stuff that I can't think of get popular.  Very few are really designed specifically for LE needs -- though KMWW and PPCT are.  The advantages of packaged programs are documentable curriculums, instructor certification qualifications, and "name recognition" when presented to the brass.  But they may not meet a specific agency's needs.  For example, there's a guy in Alaska named Steve Jimerfield who -- based on his professional experience as a trooper there, as well as high ranking black belts -- designed a program that takes into account the layers of clothing worn by officers and everyone else up there...

With all that said...

There's no reason why a cop shouldn't train in BJJ, Filipino Martial Arts, Bando, Krav Maga, Judo, Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi, Bagua, or any other martial art.  Trained with an eye towards function, and used within the use of force models, any of them are beneficial.

I will note that, increasingly, there are BJJ schools that are highly sport oriented.  Also, getting someone in a submission hold is fine -- but you have to be able to cuff them, and that takes an appropriate emphasis in your training.  

And I do respect a couple of things I've seen some of the Gracies do teaching their program.  When cops called them on a technique, saying that you can't move that way with a gun belt on -- they tried it, and then adjusted to work.  And they've actually tested grabbing the slide in a gun disarm...  which I admit, I haven't!


----------



## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> Going back to the original question...
> 
> Should cops learn BJJ?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Nor should they learn Taekwondo, Bando, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Karate, Aikido, Krav Maga, or any other specific martial art.
> 
> Police Control Tactics or Defensive Tactics are designed around their job and their mission.  They balance training time, and liability with use of force laws, officer safety, and the likelihood of controlling a subject without injuring them.  They tend to be selected and pulled from various martial arts, with different styles coming in vogue at various times, and depending on the interests of various lead instructors.  In the best programs, they have a unifying set of principles that are consistent throughout.  In some others... they aren't.
> 
> At various times, programs like Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT), KMWW Force Protection Program (and other Krav based models), Gracie Combatives (and programs from BJJ splits), and other stuff that I can't think of get popular.  Very few are really designed specifically for LE needs -- though KMWW and PPCT are.  The advantages of packaged programs are documentable curriculums, instructor certification qualifications, and "name recognition" when presented to the brass.  But they may not meet a specific agency's needs.  For example, there's a guy in Alaska named Steve Jimerfield who -- based on his professional experience as a trooper there, as well as high ranking black belts -- designed a program that takes into account the layers of clothing worn by officers and everyone else up there...
> 
> With all that said...
> 
> There's no reason why a cop shouldn't train in BJJ, Filipino Martial Arts, Bando, Krav Maga, Judo, Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi, Bagua, or any other martial art.  Trained with an eye towards function, and used within the use of force models, any of them are beneficial.
> 
> I will note that, increasingly, there are BJJ schools that are highly sport oriented.  Also, getting someone in a submission hold is fine -- but you have to be able to cuff them, and that takes an appropriate emphasis in your training.
> 
> And I do respect a couple of things I've seen some of the Gracies do teaching their program.  When cops called them on a technique, saying that you can't move that way with a gun belt on -- they tried it, and then adjusted to work.  And they've actually tested grabbing the slide in a gun disarm...  which I admit, I haven't!



My issue with defensive tactics is they don't have accountability. Nobody is held accountable if their methods straight up don't work.

Where as I could turn up to trillo and call out their black belt and challenge him to handcuff me.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> My issue with defensive tactics is they don't have accountability. Nobody is held accountable if their methods straight up don't work.


No accountability by who's standards? Most of these systems are made by cops for cops and are based off real life needs and uses.  they are constantly reviewed and updated as well.



> Where as I could turn up to trillo and call out their black belt and challenge him to handcuff me.


You could do the same thing to a police DT instructor if you wanted too.  or even better go join the academy


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> No accountability by who's standards? Most of these systems are made by cops for cops and are based off real life needs and uses.  they are constantly reviewed and updated as well.
> 
> 
> You could do the same thing to a police DT instructor if you wanted too.  or even better go join the academy



No accountability by anyone's standards.

Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.



Our instructors are still working officers and handcuff resisting guys often.


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> No accountability by anyone's standards.
> 
> Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.


You can watch countless resisting people get cuffed online and on TV shows like Cops. Hang out in the wrong places, and you’ll see people get taken down and cuffed.

My brother-in-law is a New York State Trooper. He’s wrestled down enough resisting suspects and cuffed them.

A lot of those guys don’t have any BJJ, wrestling, MMA nor any other training beyond defensive tactics. My brother-in-law included.

That’s accountability in my book. It’s working far more often than not.

One of my former students’ father is a DT instructor. He’s also a full-time patrolling officer, not a desk-jockey. Having a great conversation with him, he said “My martial arts training is zero. They keep having me teach DT because I’m good at it. I’m good at the tactics and good at teaching it.” He was an MP in the Marine Corps, worked State Corrections after discharge, and left that when he got into the police academy. I’d say his work experience is accountability enough.

Side note: we were talking about MA in general and his thoughts on different arts and combat sports. He said he finds the people who do the best with DT training are wrestlers and boxers. Wrestlers are typically great at getting a guy to the ground and getting out of stuff. Guys from both of those typically have a mental toughness that carries over well.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Our instructors are still working officers and handcuff resisting guys often.



So at the level of the guy in OP,s video?


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> You can watch countless resisting people get cuffed online and on TV shows like Cops. Hang out in the wrong places, and you’ll see people get taken down and cuffed.
> 
> My brother-in-law is a New York State Trooper. He’s wrestled down enough resisting suspects and cuffed them.
> 
> A lot of those guys don’t have any BJJ, wrestling, MMA nor any other training beyond defensive tactics. My brother-in-law included.
> 
> That’s accountability in my book. It’s working far more often than not.
> 
> One of my former students’ father is a DT instructor. He’s also a full-time patrolling officer, not a desk-jockey. Having a great conversation with him, he said “My martial arts training is zero. They keep having me teach DT because I’m good at it. I’m good at the tactics and good at teaching it.” He was an MP in the Marine Corps, worked State Corrections after discharge, and left that when he got into the police academy. I’d say his work experience is accountability enough.
> 
> Side note: we were talking about MA in general and his thoughts on different arts and combat sports. He said he finds the people who do the best with DT training are wrestlers and boxers. Wrestlers are typically great at getting a guy to the ground and getting out of stuff. Guys from both of those typically have a mental toughness that carries over well.



Whether or not your DT instructor is any good is a different argument to whether he has to be. 

And whether the students can apply what is being taught. 

If I can't sub a guy in BJJ. Nobody will let me sub them. New guy rolls in the door and I have to fight him on equal terms. Every time. Sometimes new people even beat me and I have to address that.

That sort of accountability. 

Dt instructors are generally not trying to wrestle on hand cuffs at the end of every session against every guy who turns up.

If they did. I imagine would get pretty good at it.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> No accountability by anyone's standards.
> 
> Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.


Well they generally dont advertise that stuff for MANY reasons.  Just like we dont film swat tactics, active shooter response tactics just because it's not on youtube doesn't mean it doesnt work.  However since EVERY cop has some form of Defensive Tactics and most arrests dont end in Gunfire I'm pretty confindent it works just fine most of the time.


----------



## TMA17

If I wasn't getting that real world pressure testing, or accountability as PB stated, from the curriculum, I'd probably make sure I was in good shape and getting physicallly stronger.  That may not teach you how to fight per se, but it's worth something.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> So at the level of the guy in OP,s video?


That really wasnt that high of a lvl of resistance.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Dt instructors are generally not trying to wrestle on hand cuffs at the end of every session against every guy who turns up.
> 
> If they did. I imagine would get pretty good at it.


You seem to know alot about what Law Enforcement DT instructors do and dont di.  how long exactly have you been one?


----------



## Buka

Don'tcha just love it when somebody who has never fished tells you how to fish?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> You seem to know alot about what Law Enforcement DT instructors do and dont di.  how long exactly have you been one?



20 years give or take.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> So at the level of the guy in OP,s video?



Our guys are pretty squared away.



drop bear said:


> Whether or not your DT instructor is any good is a different argument to whether he has to be.
> 
> And whether the students can apply what is being taught.
> 
> If I can't sub a guy in BJJ. Nobody will let me sub them. New guy rolls in the door and I have to fight him on equal terms. Every time. Sometimes new people even beat me and I have to address that.
> 
> That sort of accountability.



You don't think the risk of serious injury or death is accountability?


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> 20 years give or take.



You are a cop?  I thought you worked private security.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> 20 years give or take.


You have been an law Enfocrment DT instructor in the US for 20 years....hmmmm interesting


----------



## ballen0351

CB Jones said:


> You are a cop?  I thought you worked private security.


Hes not hes a bouncer


----------



## ballen0351

Buka said:


> Don'tcha just love it when somebody who has never fished tells you how to fish?


Exactly. Nobody is saying there is never room for improvement but that's true for every style or system.  But to say 1,000,000 cops on the streets locking up and arresting millions of people a year many of which resist much harder then the OP isnt good enough "quality control" because it didnt happen on a mat in a GI or because he cant watch it on YouTube is ridiculous.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> You have been an law Enfocrment DT instructor in the US for 20 years....hmmmm interesting



Gotcha. Sorry. Not a DT instructor in the US.

If you have to be one to make an assessment That is the problem pretty much.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Exactly. Nobody is saying there is never room for improvement but that's true for every style or system.  But to say 1,000,000 cops on the streets locking up and arresting millions of people a year many of which resist much harder then the OP isnt good enough "quality control" because it didnt happen on a mat in a GI or because he cant watch it on YouTube is ridiculous.



More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.

Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.

But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.
> 
> Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.
> 
> But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"




Not really accurate.

DT is always evolving.  As things change our tactics change to fix new problems...sure we tend to be a step behind sometimes but thats just the nature of the beast.

I would advise a "system" that is using feedback from the real world


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.
> 
> Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.
> 
> But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"


 Think you’re confounding some issues, DB. If someone studied BJJ for the same amount of time most LEO spend in DT, they’d not get better results. In fact, given the less focused nature (no specific cuffing practice), they’d likely do worse. 

The generalizable issue with DT is simple the limited exposure. You can’t reasonably compare longer-term training (BJJ or anything else) to very short-term DT training.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Gotcha. Sorry. Not a DT instructor in the US.
> 
> If you have to be one to make an assessment That is the problem pretty much.


No but you should at least know what's being taught before you make blanket statements about what they do and dont do.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.
> 
> Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.
> 
> But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"


So now your speaking for "more cops" funny.
You are in over your head now and have no idea what your saying.


----------



## TMA17

The Philly PD has been taking Israeli Krav Maga.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> While I largely agree, I think the cops are trying to avoid getting in trouble later on. Like if you can restrain someone without hurting them, that goes a long way to avoiding trouble from lawsuits and other crap. Striking can be a slippery slope depending on the situation.



Well, frankly, if you can restrain someone without hurting them (or yourself), that would always be the preferred way.  Problem is, it seldom goes that way..


----------



## TMA17

Doesn’t BJJ tho teach you how to control someone effectively once on the ground?  Or wrestling?  

Problem I see with a lot of Krav is things don’t go like their drills say they will.  So practicing an art like BJJ/Wrestling teaches you how to control yourself and opponent.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> No but you should at least know what's being taught before you make blanket statements about what they do and dont do.



It is a secret system only instructors understand. (Linage)

Designed for an environment that nobody else can understand. (Street, sport)

That is effective because someone cool does it. (Appeal to authority)

Created by instructors with no accountability. And trained by students to no standard.

It is basically the worst sort of TMA. 

So fine. I will treat this the same way I would treat a ninja.

There is no evidence supporting it effectiveness.

And if you actually are going to need a martial art it absolutely has to be evidence based.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> It is a secret system only instructors understand. (Linage)


It's not a secret system.  Its just bad tactics to post a defensive Tactics program so the bad guys and worse Lawyers can study and then use against you on the street or on the court room. Thats common sense.  


> Designed for an environment that nobody else can understand. (Street, sport)


I dont think I said that anywhere.  


> That is effective because someone cool does it. (Appeal to authority)


Nope I said 1 Million officers in the U.S and it works a vast majority of the time.  1 million vs "someone cool"  


> Created by instructors with no accountability. And trained by students to no standard.


Again how do you know?  you dont train in it and are not a cop.  Again 1 million cops use it every day so there is plenty of Accountability no matter how hard you try and deny it


> It is basically the worst sort of TMA.
> 
> So fine. I will treat this the same way I would treat a ninja.
> 
> There is no evidence supporting it effectiveness.
> 
> And if you actually are going to need a martial art it absolutely has to be evidence based.


Yawn  another thread that devolved into well if it's not on YouTube it doesnt work.  Believe what you want man your opinion is irrelevant to U.S. Law Enforcement defensive Tactics.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Think you’re confounding some issues, DB. If someone studied BJJ for the same amount of time most LEO spend in DT, they’d not get better results. In fact, given the less focused nature (no specific cuffing practice), they’d likely do worse.
> 
> The generalizable issue with DT is simple the limited exposure. You can’t reasonably compare longer-term training (BJJ or anything else) to very short-term DT training.



And untested systems, unknown ability of the instructors, A mountain of political compromise, Isolationism. Niche building.

It is all the TMA issues plus, because the students don't even really get a choice. 

And it craps on people not only can it not work. Which is hard in a fight.

But if it doesn't work. It is still assumed to work. So that all those unreal expectations that you get out of TMA. Are the official expectations of what will happen in a fight.

Which is why the old school guys hit people and the new school guys jits.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> It's not a secret system.  Its just bad tactics to post a defensive Tactics program so the bad guys and worse Lawyers can study and then use against you on the street or on the court room. Thats common sense.
> 
> I dont think I said that anywhere.
> 
> Nope I said 1 Million officers in the U.S and it works a vast majority of the time.  1 million vs "someone cool"
> 
> Again how do you know?  you dont train in it and are not a cop.  Again 1 million cops use it every day so there is plenty of Accountability no matter how hard you try and deny it
> 
> Yawn  another thread that devolved into well if it's not on YouTube it doesnt work.  Believe what you want man your opinion is irrelevant to U.S. Law Enforcement defensive Tactics.



If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.

A million cops using it is terrible evidence.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.


Except it does have "evidence"  I've ready use of force reports.  I've been on the use of force review board.  Just because you dont see it doesnt make it so


----------



## ballen0351

Not to mention the fact its not a "system"  every department uses what they choose to use.  I know one department that solely teaches BJJ to its officers, Our department uses a system developed by the state Police.  They review every instance of use of force every year and evaluate the training based on real world results then adjust to meet the needs. 
I know other departments that teach a little boxing and a little grappling. 
I know some departments that dont teach anything.  
So I'm not even sure what "system" your trying to bash here?


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Not really accurate.
> 
> DT is always evolving.  As things change our tactics change to fix new problems...sure we tend to be a step behind sometimes but thats just the nature of the beast.
> 
> I would advise a "system" that is using feedback from the real world



It is the nature of all TMA beasts that are isolationist and governed by its founders rather than its community to be behind.

The pros of bjj become.

 Better instructors,
Better general skill level,
More accountable training.
More training. Bigger depth, more people.

The cons being the game is different.

But to change the game is 10% of the problem. Same with any other system.

This is exactly the same conversation I have with self defense.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Except it does have "evidence"  I've ready use of force reports.  I've been on the use of force review board.  Just because you dont see it doesnt make it so



I am sorry but I can't take in to account the evidence I can't see.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Not to mention the fact its not a "system"  every department uses what they choose to use.  I know one department that solely teaches BJJ to its officers, Our department uses a system developed by the state Police.  They review every instance of use of force every year and evaluate the training based on real world results then adjust to meet the needs.
> I know other departments that teach a little boxing and a little grappling.
> I know some departments that dont teach anything.
> So I'm not even sure what "system" your trying to bash here?



That mish mash of good ideas from anyone with the authority to decide it is a good idea.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.
> 
> A million cops using it is terrible evidence.


Haaaaaa so a million people doing it in the real world isnt evidence?  ok man you win.  all cops in the US Suck we all should thank God we even make it home every day.  I'll report directly to the nearest BJJ gym for training.  Thanks for setting me straight


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> That mish mash of good ideas from anyone with the authority to decide it is a good idea.


That's how things work. We have no national police force or national standards other then case law.  every department is free to do what they choose as long as it comply with state regulations


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Haaaaaa so a million people doing it in the real world isnt evidence?  ok man you win.  all cops in the US Suck we all should thank God we even make it home every day.  I'll report directly to the nearest BJJ gym for training.  Thanks for setting me straight



It works in the streets is cried by every TMAer in the world.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> I am sorry but I can't take in to account the evidence I can't see.


Yet you are perfectly willing to opine and pass judgment about it?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> It works in the streets is cried by every TMAer in the world.


And?  Are you trying to say cops dont go out every day in the real world and get into altercations in the street?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> And?  Are you trying to say cops dont go out every day in the real world and get into altercations in the street?



Of course they do. We watched a video of one at the start of this thread. 

Which started the whole cops should probably learn how to fight if they are going to do it for a living.


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> Yet you are perfectly willing to opine and pass judgment about it?



Yeah. The secret evidence is always a big red flag. Especially when other systems seem to be able to create public evidence without issue.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Of course they do. We watched a video of one at the start of this thread.
> 
> Which started the whole cops should probably learn how to fight if they are going to do it for a living.


1 video of a cop....(who won by the way since he went home alive) isn't "evidence" that the entire training systems of U.S. Law Enforcement is flawed. 

You know nothing about that officer.  what training did he have?  how old is he?  what injuries does he have that may or may not have?  what was the other guys training?  there is far too much unknowns to use that video as the basis of your argument


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Yeah. The secret evidence is always a big red flag. Especially when other systems seem to be able to create public evidence without issue.


Nothing secret about it your just not privileged to it   I suppose Special Forces guys cant possibly be proficient in hostage rescue since their missions are classified and you dont get to see them on YouTube


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> 1 video of a cop....(who won by the way since he went home alive) isn't "evidence" that the entire training systems of U.S. Law Enforcement is flawed.
> 
> You know nothing about that officer.  what training did he have?  how old is he?  what injuries does he have that may or may not have?  what was the other guys training?  there is far too much unknowns to use that video as the basis of your argument



That is the evidence I can see.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Nothing secret about it your just not privileged to it   I suppose Special Forces guys cant possibly be proficient in hostage rescue since their missions are classified and you dont get to see them on YouTube



Restraining a guy isn't exactly a secret method.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> That is the evidence I can see.


Because you choose not to look.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Restraining a guy isn't exactly a secret method.


Tell you what  Go test your theory walk into your local PD punch one in the face and dare them to arrest you   let me know if they were able to arrest you or not.

You claim that's acceptable evidence for BJJ people can walk in and challenge the teacher well your free to do the same at the PD


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Because you choose not to look.



If you have it. Present it.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Tell you what  Go test your theory walk into your local PD punch one in the face and dare them to arrest you   let me know if they were able to arrest you or not.
> 
> You claim that's acceptable evidence for BJJ people can walk in and challenge the teacher well your free to do the same at the PD



Ah. The death challenge. That has never come out of the dodgy TMA play book.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Ah. The death challenge. That has never come out of the dodgy TMA play book.



I think it's unlikely the cop would actually kill you...


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Ah. The death challenge. That has never come out of the dodgy TMA play book.


That wasnt a death challenge it's the exact thing you claim makes BJJ have "quality control" people can walk in and challenge the class.  Well your claim is law enforcement cant fight so go prove it.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> That wasnt a death challenge it's the exact thing you claim makes BJJ have "quality control" people can walk in and challenge the class.  Well your claim is law enforcement cant fight so go prove it.



Ok.


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it's unlikely the cop would actually kill you...



I train with half of them.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Ok.


Hes the same guy from the OP he pushes BJJ all the time.  Thats his thing. And I haven't once said cops shouldn't train.  I simply said BJJ isnt the end all be all.  Also to repeat what someone already said if you could get cops to spend as much time at DT as they would at BJJ it would have the same if not better outcome. 

But just for argument sake how long would it take you to teach a rookie enough BJJ to be effective on the street for their entire career?  because generally most cops get maybe 2 weeks of DT in the academy and never train again.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> I train with half of them.



Must be a really really really big school....


----------



## ballen0351

Dirty Dog said:


> Must be a really really really big school....


Or really really small police force in Australia lol


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Or really really small police force in Australia lol



Small station.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Hes the same guy from the OP he pushes BJJ all the time.  Thats his thing. And I haven't once said cops shouldn't train.  I simply said BJJ isnt the end all be all.  Also to repeat what someone already said if you could get cops to spend as much time at DT as they would at BJJ it would have the same if not better outcome.
> 
> But just for argument sake how long would it take you to teach a rookie enough BJJ to be effective on the street for their entire career?  because generally most cops get maybe 2 weeks of DT in the academy and never train again.



We get guys full contact fighting MMA in 12 weeks pretty much full time training.

That is what I would consider the least amount of training that an ethical instructor would provide before engaging in a full contact fight. 

2 weeks is setting up people to get hurt.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Hes the same guy from the OP he pushes BJJ all the time.  Thats his thing. And I haven't once said cops shouldn't train.  I simply said BJJ isnt the end all be all.  Also to repeat what someone already said if you could get cops to spend as much time at DT as they would at BJJ it would have the same if not better outcome.
> 
> But just for argument sake how long would it take you to teach a rookie enough BJJ to be effective on the street for their entire career?  because generally most cops get maybe 2 weeks of DT in the academy and never train again.



And no I don't think if a person did DT for the Same time as BJJ they would get the same results. Unless the standard of DT was the same as BJJ.

And then we go back to the accountability issue.

Which if you are setting people loose to fight criminals with two weeks training. Probably isn't there.


----------



## CB Jones

Our agency’s mission isn’t putting instructional information out to the public.   It’s to give our officers tactics to use in the field that helps protect them physically and legally (civil and criminal)


Ok so let’s say my agency takes your advice and replaces it DT tactics and trains bjj.

Does BJJ have certifiable methods for escorting (compliant, passive resistant, and assaultive resistant)?

Or handcuffing? (Compliant standing and prone, passive resistant standing and prone, and assaultive resistant)

Takedowns and handcuffing?

Who is the certifying organization for bjj for legal purposes.  And does this organization except liability issues with their tactics?

And how long does it take to be certified in bjj?


----------



## Buka

I can't figure out where the argument comes from. Drop Bear, how much time have you spent in the United States? How much time have you spent in a TMA? How much time in police work?

Probably as much time as I've spent in Australia. Which is why I don't try to tell people what it's like. But, hey, I suppose  I could watch youtube videos on Australia.

But then I'd have to go buy a new uniform.






And when you speak of  "no accountability" I find that highly insulting. I really do. I don't think you would recognize accountability if it bit you on the backside.


----------



## pdg

Buka said:


> I can't figure out where the argument comes from. Drop Bear, how much time have you spent in the United States? How much time have you spent in a TMA? How much time in police work?
> 
> Probably as much time as I've spent in Australia. Which is why I don't try to tell people what it's like. But, hey, I suppose  I could watch youtube videos on Australia.
> 
> But then I'd have to go buy a new uniform.
> 
> View attachment 21971
> 
> And when you speak of  "no accountability" I find that highly insulting. I really do. I don't think you would recognize accountability if it bit you on the backside.



I had heard that all Australian wildlife has only one purpose - to kill you.

Now you've provided photographic evidence that it's true!


----------



## drop bear

drop bear said:


> Small station.



They do get issued guns though.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Yeah. The secret evidence is always a big red flag. Especially when other systems seem to be able to create public evidence without issue.


Doesn't seem particularly secret. Just seems that you haven't been willing to go look at it. Might require you to go take training with some of them.but you haven't and somehow I doubt that will change.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> I can't figure out where the argument comes from. Drop Bear, how much time have you spent in the United States? How much time have you spent in a TMA? How much time in police work?
> 
> Probably as much time as I've spent in Australia. Which is why I don't try to tell people what it's like. But, hey, I suppose  I could watch youtube videos on Australia.
> 
> But then I'd have to go buy a new uniform.
> 
> View attachment 21971
> 
> And when you speak of  "no accountability" I find that highly insulting. I really do. I don't think you would recognize accountability if it bit you on the backside.



Would you prefer me to say 2 weeks of pretty meh training to then expect a person to fight a bad guy and not hurt them is straight up unethical. 

It is a culture reflected in my job. It is a culture reflected in the Australian police. We read about it as a culture reflected in kemosabe job. Where I assume the have real people who can get hurt. And it is a culture reflected by the comments by cops that I have posted. 

People don't magically fight differently country to country. There is no American version of dropping a guy and getting his hand behind his back that differs from the Australian version. 

Convenience will trump ethics in DT. Happens everywhere. 

But that is not the point. My point is that people need to know if they do the very serious buisness of fighting people for a living. Which I have done. Then they need to do effective training from an ethical source. 

Insulting people is a lot less dire than getting people unnecessarily hurt


----------



## Gerry Seymour

TMA17 said:


> Doesn’t BJJ tho teach you how to control someone effectively once on the ground?  Or wrestling?
> 
> Problem I see with a lot of Krav is things don’t go like their drills say they will.  So practicing an art like BJJ/Wrestling teaches you how to control yourself and opponent.


That’s not inherent in Krav - it’s a gap in how it’s trained in many places. The drills aren’t intended to show how things will go, but to build transitions to take advantage of the next opening, whatever it may be.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And untested systems, unknown ability of the instructors, A mountain of political compromise, Isolationism. Niche building.
> 
> It is all the TMA issues plus, because the students don't even really get a choice.
> 
> And it craps on people not only can it not work. Which is hard in a fight.
> 
> But if it doesn't work. It is still assumed to work. So that all those unreal expectations that you get out of TMA. Are the official expectations of what will happen in a fight.
> 
> Which is why the old school guys hit people and the new school guys jits.


There are a lot of unsupported suppositions in that post.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.
> 
> A million cops using it is terrible evidence.


So now actual, daily use in-context is worse evidence than sport????


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> Doesn't seem particularly secret. Just seems that you haven't been willing to go look at it. Might require you to go take training with some of them.but you haven't and somehow I doubt that will change.



Trained with cops. Trained cop systems. Restrained a bulk ton of bad guys. Handcuffed a bulk ton of bad guys. Worked with cops in the field. Thrown guys in the back of divvies. Trained with martial artists. Worked with martial artists, worked with BJJers. 

Fought guys with knives, sticks, glasses and bats. 

And using that to address what I see and hear off YouTube.

If you just wanted me to tell you I am a subject matter expert on clamping guys and that most cops can't fight. Then fine.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Trained with cops. Trained cop systems. Restrained a bulk ton of bad guys. Handcuffed a bulk ton of bad guys. Worked with cops in the field. Thrown guys in the back of divvies. Trained with martial artists. Worked with martial artists, worked with BJJers.
> 
> Fought guys with knives, sticks, glasses and bats.
> 
> And using that to address what I see and hear off YouTube.
> 
> If you just wanted me to tell you I am a subject matter expert on clamping guys and that most cops can't fight. Then fine.


So you trained DT in the US?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> So now actual, daily use in-context is worse evidence than sport????



Yeah. Because there isn't the consistency. 

And what evidence?


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> So you trained DT in the US?



No. You are suggesting it is different?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of unsupported suppositions in that post.



From my experience.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> No. You are suggesting it is different?


I'm suggesting that there are, literally, hundreds of different systems being taught. The U.S. is apparently not your small rural department. there are hundreds of thousands of different departments and countless versions of DT here in the US. it changes and evolves on a regular basis and instructors, and instruction itself, is brought in from any number of different sources. I have seen some that was good and some that was not. But you are there and not here. Frankly, you simply lack the experience with what goes on over here in to comment intelligently on it. Just because you've read something somewhere or watched a YouTube video simply does not make you an expert on the potentially tens of thousands of different variations of what is being taught. Heck I know of one apartment in particular that was teaching one thing a few years ago and is now teaching something completely different.

To be blunt, you are making pronouncements from a position of ignorance.


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> I'm suggesting that there are, literally, hundreds of different systems being taught. The U.S. is apparently not your small rural department. there are hundreds of thousands of different departments and countless versions of DT here in the US. it changes and evolves on a regular basis and instructors, and instruction itself, is brought in from any number of different sources. I have seen some that was good and some that was not. But you are there and not here. Frankly, you simply lack the experience with what goes on over here in to comment intelligently on it. Just because you've read something somewhere or watched a YouTube video simply does not make you an expert on the potentially tens of thousands of different variations of what is being taught. Heck I know of one apartment in particular that was teaching one thing a few years ago and is now teaching something completely different.
> 
> To be blunt, you are making pronouncements from a position of ignorance.



Ok. So you have what? A non integrated mess of whatever systems people think are cool.

And you wonder what my issue is with that?

LOL.

I just realized we both just described krav maga.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> From my experience.



Do you truly not see the contradiction in believing that your experience should count as 'proof' but that of others doesn't?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> 2 weeks is setting up people to get hurt.


Which is the real issue here.  More Officers then not choose for whatever reason not to train after thier initial police academy training.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Ok. So you have what? A non integrated mess of whatever systems people think are cool.


a lot of it that works in some of it that doesn't. It's kind of like looking at a thousand different martial arts. Some of its going to be good and some of its not.



> And you wonder what my issue is with that?


Heck no. I know what your problem is. But it isn't anything actually related to DT here in the US. It's actually about you. That is your problem. It's always all about you.



> LOL.
> 
> I just realized we both just described krav maga.


Sometimes. Some DT here in the US is exactly krav maga. Some of it is worse. Some of it is a ton better. Some of it is derivation of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and judo and any number of other stuff that works. But modified to be specific to a cop's needs.  The problem is that you don't know this. But you still feel like you can comment on it. Might as well comment on the general state of baseball in the US and lump everything in there from National league and American league through farm teams and even Little League. It's exactly the same thing. Now I got to tell you some of those t ballers can't hit a national league fastpitch for nothing. Care to comment on that too?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> And no I don't think if a person did DT for the Same time as BJJ they would get the same results. Unless the standard of DT was the same as BJJ.


Standards cant be the same the goals are different..


> And then we go back to the accountability issue.


Right and 1,000,000 cops using it millions of times a year is great accountability 


> Which if you are setting people loose to fight criminals with two weeks training. Probably isn't there.


Yet a VAST majority of the time it has worked so..........


----------



## Robert Agar-Hutton

Re the OP - my vote would be no to BJJ - the 'magic-fication' of any art - i.e. the idea that an art is suitable for everyone is just not true. Even among police officers there is a huge range of needs, physical and psychological attributes and  etc...


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Trained with cops. Trained cop systems. Restrained a bulk ton of bad guys. Handcuffed a bulk ton of bad guys. Worked with cops in the field. Thrown guys in the back of divvies. Trained with martial artists. Worked with martial artists, worked with BJJers.
> 
> Fought guys with knives, sticks, glasses and bats.
> 
> And using that to address what I see and hear off YouTube.
> 
> If you just wanted me to tell you I am a subject matter expert on clamping guys and that most cops can't fight. Then fine.



What you don’t understand is DT is not a fighting style.

It’s is the tactics certified by agencies and authorities that protect the officer both criminally and civilly.

You might be a subject matter on bouncing and fighting but you don’t know diddly about US law enforcement certification and standards requirements.

Still waiting for your reply to my questions on bjj certifications and how they meet required standards for LE.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Ok. So you have what? A non integrated mess of whatever systems people think are cool.



We have tactics that are certified that meet required standards to be protected legally that evolve as needed but continually certified by governing authorities


----------



## CB Jones

I can train 10 years at 10th planet bjj....but Eddie Bravo ain’t paying my legal expenses if I snap someone’s arm using his bjj tactics


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> a lot of it that works in some of it that doesn't. It's kind of like looking at a thousand different martial arts. Some of its going to be good and some of its not.
> 
> Heck no. I know what your problem is. But it isn't anything actually related to DT here in the US. It's actually about you. That is your problem. It's always all about you.
> 
> Sometimes. Some DT here in the US is exactly krav maga. Some of it is worse. Some of it is a ton better. Some of it is derivation of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and judo and any number of other stuff that works. But modified to be specific to a cop's needs.  The problem is that you don't know this. But you still feel like you can comment on it. Might as well comment on the general state of baseball in the US and lump everything in there from National league and American league through farm teams and even Little League. It's exactly the same thing. Now I got to tell you some of those t ballers can't hit a national league fastpitch for nothing. Care to comment on that too?



Yeah look this is the same conversation I had with king fu guys and ground work. For exactly the same reason. "You don't understand the principles of king fu. And the street is different".


I don't need to understand America to notice bad grappling. 

I don't need to be a police officer to suggest people learn good grappling. In a job where you will probably be grappling someone.

And to tell if you are doing good grappling doesn't change country to country. Or even when you throw a uniform on.

There are specific variations. Which you haven't mentioned. But this in general principle that good grappling is different to police grappling is wrong.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> I can train 10 years at 10th planet bjj....but Eddie Bravo ain’t paying my legal expenses if I snap someone’s arm using his bjj tactics



And you DT instructor probably won't apologize to you in hospital.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> We have tactics that are certified that meet required standards to be protected legally that evolve as needed but continually certified by governing authorities



Is it cheaper to have the cop injured than the crook?


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> What you don’t understand is DT is not a fighting style.
> 
> It’s is the tactics certified by agencies and authorities that protect the officer both criminally and civilly.
> 
> You might be a subject matter on bouncing and fighting but you don’t know diddly about US law enforcement certification and standards requirements.
> 
> Still waiting for your reply to my questions on bjj certifications and how they meet required standards for LE.



Who are the standards set up by?

Is it DT instructors?


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> And you DT instructor probably won't apologize to you in hospital.



You don’t know **** about our DT instructors.  You are just speaking out your ****.

Our DT instructors spend a lot of time training  and bring techniques from wrestling, bjj and other grappling styles to be certified and taught to help fix deficiencies.  And take it very serious if one of ours gets hurt.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Who are the standards set up by?
> 
> Is it DT instructors?



Council under the authority of the state government who certifies all police and corrections officers... every state has one.  You have to be certified within a year of hiring and recertifiy yearly.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Council under the authority of the state government who certifies all police and corrections officers... every state has one.  You have to be certified within a year of hiring and recertifiy yearly.



Let me see what I have from you guys so far.

We have a piecemeal system focused on covering department liability. Decided by council and state government.

Now the test of effectiveness of this system is that police can operate effectively. But these are the same police who may only do about 2 weeks training. And are still considered effective.

Have I missed anything?


----------



## jks9199

drop bear said:


> No accountability by anyone's standards.
> 
> Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.


Well, it'd take a FOIA request and approval from the chief... and even then it's crap shoot whether you'd actually see anything because the reality is that  cameras aren't often set up purely to capture the fight... and, though you're seeing more today -- lots of use of force comes up unexpectedly and suddenly, and cameras don't always get turned on in time.  But it's happening more and more with the increasing spread of in-car video and body cameras.

There aren't a ton of agencies that are large enough and have a true, dedicated "all they do is teach at the academy" unit.  Most LE instructors are working cops who are seconded or serve as an adjunct at the academy.  That's how I do it...  for the range and for DT.  

Held accountable?  Try teaching a group of working cops something.  Anything.  Doesn't even have to be DT techniques...  Doesn't matter what it is.  They'll do one of two things: call you on ********, or shut you down and tune you out -- blatantly.


----------



## CB Jones

What we have is a legend in his own mind who doesn’t know what he is talking about and is just making assumptions.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I am sorry but I can't take in to account the evidence I can't see.


You’ve asserted they don’t use evidence. That’s very different from not having seen it, yourself.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> It works in the streets is cried by every TMAer in the world.


You know, your usual reply to that is something like “so it worked once for one guy?” So now someone is talking about something that is actually put to use in a regular basis by many individuals, and that’s the same thing to you??

Man, your logic circuit is fried.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> We get guys full contact fighting MMA in 12 weeks pretty much full time training.
> 
> That is what I would consider the least amount of training that an ethical instructor would provide before engaging in a full contact fight.
> 
> 2 weeks is setting up people to get hurt.


The instructors, in this case, do not get to make that decision.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> The instructors, in this case, do not get to make that decision.



I am not trying to fix DT. There are a whole bunch of reasons it is unfixable.

I am saying do a system that doesn't have those problems.

I mean you have to do DT anyway so it isn't really a competition. But to get functional skills you need a functional system. Or you are quite simply more likely to get your head kicked in.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Let me see what I have from you guys so far.
> 
> We have a piecemeal system focused on covering department liability. Decided by council and state government.
> 
> Now the test of effectiveness of this system is that police can operate effectively. But these are the same police who may only do about 2 weeks training. And are still considered effective.
> 
> Have I missed anything?


Yes, you have. Talking about DT as a single thing is like saying something about martial arts (with the inclusive definition that encompasses Asian arts and western arts, sport and non-sport). DT is a blanket term that encompasses not a piecemeal system, but a bunch of systems. 

You’re being pigheaded. You can debate on better information and from a better position.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You know, your usual reply to that is something like “so it worked once for one guy?” So now someone is talking about something that is actually put to use in a regular basis by many individuals, and that’s the same thing to you??
> 
> Man, your logic circuit is fried.



When a police officer actually fights a guy. It looks a lot more like wrestling than DT. 

When a BJJ police officer actually fights a guy. It looks like BJJ. 

If a police officer is handcuffing a semi resisting guy. Yeah? DT will come out. 

The Cops use DT successfully every day isn't exactly as true as it is being made to sound.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Yes, you have. Talking about DT as a single thing is like saying something about martial arts (with the inclusive definition that encompasses Asian arts and western arts, sport and non-sport). DT is a blanket term that encompasses not a piecemeal system, but a bunch of systems.
> 
> You’re being pigheaded. You can debate on better information and from a better position.



And I am happy to see evidence of individual systems being any good. To separate them from the bad systems.

Otherwise DT can't be recommended as a training method because nobody really has an idea what they will get.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You’ve asserted they don’t use evidence. That’s very different from not having seen it, yourself.



It isn't very different. It is the same as all the street stories that we just never happen to hear about


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> Do you truly not see the contradiction in believing that your experience should count as 'proof' but that of others doesn't?



Well there is no proof of DT working at all so far.

I mean if this was a straight up BJJ vs DT evidence fest. BJJ would have won this thread by post 2.


----------



## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Well there is no proof of DT working at all so far.



Except for the hundreds of thousands of US police officers who somehow manage to subdue bad guys every single day.
For every cop I see in the ER, I see at least 20 bad guys. That's a pretty good success rate. One of our kids is a cop. He's been involved in at least a half dozen use of force events in the past year (that's just the ones he's told me about). He's come out on top in each one.

Oh yeah. Nobodies experience counts. Except yours, of course.
#facepalm


----------



## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> Except for the hundreds of thousands of US police officers who somehow manage to subdue bad guys every single day.
> For every cop I see in the ER, I see at least 20 bad guys. That's a pretty good success rate. One of our kids is a cop. He's been involved in at least a half dozen use of force events in the past year (that's just the ones he's told me about). He's come out on top in each one.
> 
> Oh yeah. Nobodies experience counts. Except yours, of course.
> #facepalm



So this two week program that let's hundreds of thousands of cops subdue bad guys must be pretty impressive then.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I am not trying to fix DT. There are a whole bunch of reasons it is unfixable.


Yet you have never done it, claim you have never seen it, and by your posts obviously have no actual knowledge of it.


> I am saying do a system that doesn't have those problems.


Wow you invented the perfect system for law enforcement with no problems PLEASE tell me what that is.


> I mean you have to do DT anyway so it isn't really a competition. But to get functional skills you need a functional system. Or you are quite simply more likely to get your head kicked in.


Except the stats on use of force encounters  show your opinion is wrong...


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Yeah look this is the same conversation I had with king fu guys and ground work. For exactly the same reason. "You don't understand the principles of king fu. And the street is different".


No.  Because it's not.  Because, you haven't seen ANY of it.  There is different DT for every department pretty much, and it changes on a regular basis, and you haven't actually seen any of it.  You're just speculating and talking out of your hind end.  You are, literally, giving your opinion from a perspective of complete ignorance and supposition.  You, quite literally, do not know what is, or is not, being taught at any given department, never mind all of them combined, yet your are giving your 100% uninformed opinion on something you have never even seen.

I'm not sure if you're just a narcissistic egomaniac, trolling this thread, or both.


----------



## lklawson

CB Jones said:


> What we have is a legend in his own mind who doesn’t know what he is talking about and is just making assumptions.


I regret that I can not "like" and "agree" with this post, but must choose one or the other.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> I am not trying to fix DT. There are a whole bunch of reasons it is unfixable.


How would you know?  You haven't actually seen any of it, never mind worked with any.


----------



## Hanzou

I love this thread.


----------



## Buka

Hanzou said:


> I love this thread.





 

And a tip of the hat to you for starting it, mate.


----------



## drop bear

lklawson said:


> No.  Because it's not.  Because, you haven't seen ANY of it.  There is different DT for every department pretty much, and it changes on a regular basis, and you haven't actually seen any of it.  You're just speculating and talking out of your hind end.  You are, literally, giving your opinion from a perspective of complete ignorance and supposition.  You, quite literally, do not know what is, or is not, being taught at any given department, never mind all of them combined, yet your are giving your 100% uninformed opinion on something you have never even seen.
> 
> I'm not sure if you're just a narcissistic egomaniac, trolling this thread, or both.



I am not sure how saying that a system with no consistency is a defense of that system.

Especially when the argument for DT is that cops arrest criminals so it must work.

So there are a whole bunch of different systems. And they change. And they all produce the same result. Which is cops go out and arrest people.

If we have a bunch of different methods and they are producing the same result. Are those methods doing anything at all?

I would recommend a system I have seen work over a system I have not seen work. And nobody can show me it works.

And when it comes to ego or self interest then you can look elsewhere.

Mabye even at the people who can't even produce a system to critique. Who hide behind their own authority and are benefiting from teaching systems at the cost of other people's health.


Because when it comes to professional violence results matter. Being able to fight gets you home safer. And the individual persons safety is my most important concern.

2 weeks of training and then pushing someone in to any fight using any system is already gross negligence. Let alone using these untested and unknown methods. This shows a disdain for the job they expect someone to do.

It quite simply amazes me police manage to succeed when they have been set up to fail.

It is not an American issue. Police here have the same problems. It is not even just a police issue. I had the same problems.

And it is an infuriating brick wall of self interest at the cost of the individuals health and safety.

And then we have BJJ.
Done by police officers out of their own personal choice. Provides open discourse on techniques and tactics. Is actually seen working in real life situations. Provides on going training. Is driven by the needs of officers themselves. And is accountable. And they actually have a system to critique.

Results matter. Good training is important.


----------



## ballen0351

[


drop bear said:


> Because when it comes to professional violence results matter. Being able to fight gets you home safer. And the individual persons safety is my most important concern.


Results matter is correct. Millions of arrest a year, hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest charges a year and 5 Officers died last year from assaults.  5 out of 1,000,000.  Pretty good results. And the 5 were all correction guards and I have no idea what they learn


> 2 weeks of training and then pushing someone in to any fight using any system is already gross negligence. Let alone using these untested and unknown methods.


Excpet it is tested and the methods are known....just not to you.



> It quite simply amazes me police manage to succeed when they have been set up to fail.


Guess the training works


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> [
> 
> Results matter is correct. Millions of arrest a year, hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest charges a year and 6 Officers died last year from assaults.  6 out of 1,000,000.  Pretty good results.
> 
> Excpet it is tested and the methods are known....just not to you.
> 
> 
> Guess the training works



Or we are missing some major pieces of the puzzle. 

For me I would need a lot more convincing than your say so to believe you have essentially solved the martial arts issue that there are no short cuts to winning fights.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Or we are missing some major pieces of the puzzle.
> 
> For me I would need a lot more convincing than your say so to believe you have essentially solved the martial arts issue that there are no short cuts to winning fights.


Well I just looked up the line of duty deaths in the US since 2010 I found 4 total incidents where a police officer was assaulted and died.  3 of the 4 happened when a suspect pushed the officer downstairs or over a railing and the officer banged his had.  If you want to add in people that died from complications from a surgery that was to treat an injury from an assault then add 3 more.  You can add 1 more if you want to count officers that had a heart attack after a fight.  So adding all that together 8 police officers from 2010 to 2017 out of approx 1 million officers were killed from an assault over the last 7 years.  Statistically, that's pretty amazing actually I thought the numbers would be much higher.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> I am not sure how saying that a system with no consistency is a defense of that system.
> 
> Especially when the argument for DT is that cops arrest criminals so it must work.
> 
> So there are a whole bunch of different systems. And they change. And they all produce the same result. Which is cops go out and arrest people.
> 
> If we have a bunch of different methods and they are producing the same result. Are those methods doing anything at all?
> 
> I would recommend a system I have seen work over a system I have not seen work. And nobody can show me it works.
> 
> And when it comes to ego or self interest then you can look elsewhere.
> 
> Mabye even at the people who can't even produce a system to critique. Who hide behind their own authority and are benefiting from teaching systems at the cost of other people's health.
> 
> 
> Because when it comes to professional violence results matter. Being able to fight gets you home safer. And the individual persons safety is my most important concern.
> 
> 2 weeks of training and then pushing someone in to any fight using any system is already gross negligence. Let alone using these untested and unknown methods. This shows a disdain for the job they expect someone to do.
> 
> It quite simply amazes me police manage to succeed when they have been set up to fail.
> 
> It is not an American issue. Police here have the same problems. It is not even just a police issue. I had the same problems.
> 
> And it is an infuriating brick wall of self interest at the cost of the individuals health and safety.
> 
> And then we have BJJ.
> Done by police officers out of their own personal choice. Provides open discourse on techniques and tactics. Is actually seen working in real life situations. Provides on going training. Is driven by the needs of officers themselves. And is accountable. And they actually have a system to critique.
> 
> Results matter. Good training is important.


Yeah, whatever. It's all the same bull crap. You don't know what you're talkin about. End of story.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Or we are missing some major pieces of the puzzle.
> 
> For me I would need a lot more convincing than your say so to believe you have essentially solved the martial arts issue that there are no short cuts to winning fights.


Yes, there is something you're missing. Experience.


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.
> 
> A million cops using it is terrible evidence.


What evidence do you want? Serious question. 

Now my smarta$$ question and post... 

If you put DT instructors and/or DT trained officers who “buy in” into the cage vs MMAers, would that be your evidence? How about a DTer win would be getting the MMAer cuffed, and a MMAer win would be regular MMA rules win?

But we’d also have to account for the DTer being able to taze and pepper spray under local laws. But the MMAer can take those away and their gun and use them too. Gun would contain blanks. Or something like a paintball so we wouldn’t have the argument if the shooter missed, but the gun itself would have to be an exact replica of what they carry. And they’d have to be in full uniform: belt, holster, hidden guns, bulletproof vest, et al. They’d have to submit a picture of them during random routine police work (non-administrative) that was taken by someone else before they knew they were going to compete. Certifying officials would determine the authenticity and decide what they’re going to bring in during the ref’s instructions in the locker room. 

The MMAer has to wear street clothing common criminals might wear, and possibly carry a weapon, as determined by the board. They could also throw a makeshift weapon into the cage at any point after the bell rings or have another guy jump in; criminal or cop.

Now that’s an event. And it would prove DT’s legitimacy and accountability.

Or we could take working veteran officers who also teach DT’s word for it. 

I haven’t seen any DT trainers selling their systems to the public like, say, Krav Maga yet. Maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places. So their word holds some credibility IMO.


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> What evidence do you want? Serious question?




I will do the serious question first. And it is really complicated so I will try an explain it. But bear with me.

As far as evidence first I want to look at training culture.

Bjj does training culture and community about as good as any system. So for a student to gain evidence on a system or a school or a teacher or a student. They turn up wrestle the guy and can make a decent gauge on who knows what and what systems are appropriate for what results.

This is aside to competition, and open access to youtube.

So if I wanted evidence on a school. I could go to that school and try it out. But because of the community aspect. I don't have to rely on just my opinion. Other instructors will roll and so get a community review as well.

They engage with the community that they are training to beat up.

So evidence as in open mats, competition. Any sort of unscripted test of objectives. Videos of DT methods working in the field. DT instructors engaging with the community in a martial arts context.


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> Now my smarta$$ question - If you put DT instructors and/or DT trained officers who “buy in” into the cage vs MMAers, would that be your evidence How about a DTer win would be getting the MMAer cuffed, and a MMAer win would be regular MMA rules win?
> 
> But we’d also have to account for the DTer being able to taze and pepper spray under local laws. But the MMAer can take those away and their gun and use them too. Gun would contain blanks. Or something like a paintball so we wouldn’t have the argument if the shooter missed, but the gun itself would have to be an exact replica of what they carry. And they’d have to be in full uniform: belt, holster, hidden guns, bulletproof vest, et al. They’d have to submit a picture of them during random routine police work (non-administrative) that was taken by someone else before they knew they were going to compete. Certifying officials would determine the authenticity and decide what they’re going to bring in.
> 
> The MMAer has to wear street clothing common criminals might wear, and possibly carry a weapon, as determined by the board. They could also throw in a makeshift weapon or have another guy jump in, criminal or cop.
> 
> Now that’s an event. And it would prove DT’s legitimacy and accountability.
> 
> Or we could take working veteran officers who also teach DT’s word for it. I haven’t seen any DT trainers selling their systems to the public like, say, Krav Maga yet. Maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places.



They already have that.


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> Or we could take working veteran officers who also teach DT’s word for it. I haven’t seen any DT trainers selling their systems to the public like, say, Krav Maga yet. Maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places.



You should. According to Ballen you have solved the martial arts riddle.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> You should. According to Ballen you have solved the martial arts riddle.


No riddle just the facts.  The stats are out there if you look.  The numbers are what they are you have no argument to overcome the facts. 

Approx 1 million police officers in the US  make millions of arrests a year. Of those millions of arrests there are Hundreds of thousands of cases where the suspect resists.  Of the hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest cases in the last 8 years only 8 officers lost their lives from an assault. 
Just because you dont see it on YouTube or because they dont hand out a pretty trophy at a competition doesnt make the facts less true.


----------



## jks9199

drop bear said:


> We get guys full contact fighting MMA in 12 weeks pretty much full time training.
> 
> That is what I would consider the least amount of training that an ethical instructor would provide before engaging in a full contact fight.
> 
> 2 weeks is setting up people to get hurt.


Here's the problem...  We don't get 12 weeks.  We have some of the longer academies in my immediate area -- about 6 months, 26 weeks or so.  And that's not full time DT training... that's covering everything that a rookie officer needs to know (in theory) when they hit the streets.  Because, in hour 1 of day 1 of their field training, they can find themselves doing anything from talking to school kids to a life-or-death fight, under fire.  So, over that academy session, they not only have to learn enough to fight -- but also things like how to search, how to handcuff, firearms, emergency vehicle operations, legal procedure, laws of arrest, elements of criminal offenses...  

So, physical control tactics have to be things that function under high-pressure situations, be learned fairly easily, retained well, be scalable to the resistance encountered, meet legal standards and liability concerns, and more...  Traditional martial arts training, wether BJJ (yes, BJJ IS traditional martial arts training) or something else, simply doesn't cut it.  That's why there is literally no DT program that is purely a martial art.

I've never said that BJJ can't be of use, or has nothing to teach.  But overemphasizing one range or one sort of fighting isn't acceptable, either.  For a while, the Gracies pointed to a study of police use of force showing that most fights went to the ground...  Yeah, but that was POLICE use of force.  And they went to the ground for specific purposes -- to position a suspect to be cuffed, robbing them of a lot of their mobility and opportunities to escape by putting a freakin' planet in the way.  If you end up in a submission hold or lock -- you have to be able to transition to cuffing, or the two of you are stuck there until someone rescues you.  (Holds and locks aren't as reliable in the real world as some people might think, either, but that's another discussion...)


----------



## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> Here's the problem...  We don't get 12 weeks.  We have some of the longer academies in my immediate area -- about 6 months, 26 weeks or so.  And that's not full time DT training... that's covering everything that a rookie officer needs to know (in theory) when they hit the streets.  Because, in hour 1 of day 1 of their field training, they can find themselves doing anything from talking to school kids to a life-or-death fight, under fire.  So, over that academy session, they not only have to learn enough to fight -- but also things like how to search, how to handcuff, firearms, emergency vehicle operations, legal procedure, laws of arrest, elements of criminal offenses...
> 
> So, physical control tactics have to be things that function under high-pressure situations, be learned fairly easily, retained well, be scalable to the resistance encountered, meet legal standards and liability concerns, and more...  Traditional martial arts training, wether BJJ (yes, BJJ IS traditional martial arts training) or something else, simply doesn't cut it.  That's why there is literally no DT program that is purely a martial art.
> 
> I've never said that BJJ can't be of use, or has nothing to teach.  But overemphasizing one range or one sort of fighting isn't acceptable, either.  For a while, the Gracies pointed to a study of police use of force showing that most fights went to the ground...  Yeah, but that was POLICE use of force.  And they went to the ground for specific purposes -- to position a suspect to be cuffed, robbing them of a lot of their mobility and opportunities to escape by putting a freakin' planet in the way.  If you end up in a submission hold or lock -- you have to be able to transition to cuffing, or the two of you are stuck there until someone rescues you.  (Holds and locks aren't as reliable in the real world as some people might think, either, but that's another discussion...)



Yeah. I don't know how you would fix DT. Even if I could go around and clean up all the random silliness.

The question of development is a more complicated issue.

It just isn't a case of laying down a set of tactics and expect people to be able to do them. More specific tactics isn't always better. 

You have to develop a whole host of skills that replicate fighting before you can expect them to perform any specific set of tactics.

And you basically need a BJJ, wrestling, MMA. Something that replicates the timing and pace of a fight.

So even though you might be training the wrong technique you are developing the right attributes and that is more important.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> No riddle just the facts.  The stats are out there if you look.  The numbers are what they are you have no argument to overcome the facts.
> 
> Approx 1 million police officers in the US  make millions of arrests a year. Of those millions of arrests there are Hundreds of thousands of cases where the suspect resists.  Of the hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest cases in the last 8 years only 8 officers lost their lives from an assault.
> Just because you dont see it on YouTube or because they dont hand out a pretty trophy at a competition doesnt make the facts less true.



Pretty sure you are not churning out effective fighters in the time frame you have. 

There might be some other elements at play there. 

I don't disagree cops do the job. I disagree with the idea that their two week human weapon portion plays as big a role as you suggest.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Pretty sure you are not churning out effective fighters in the time frame you have.









Not training fighters......


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Not training fighters......



Yes I know.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Pretty sure you are not churning out effective fighters in the time frame you have.


Of course not.  That's not the goal to be a fighter.  The Goal is to teach them enough to come home at the end of the shift. And to get the suspect into custody with the least amount of force needed.


> There might be some other elements at play there.


like?


> I don't disagree cops do the job. I disagree with the idea that their two week human weapon portion plays as big a role as you suggest.


so what do you suggest is the reason?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Yes I know.


Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty.  They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force.  They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied.  Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level.  We deal with guys high on PCP very often.  Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it.  So "submission" style joint locks have no effect.  You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it.  So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation.  It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.


----------



## CB Jones

ballen0351 said:


> Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty.  They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force.  They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied.  Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level.  We deal with guys high on PCP very often.  Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it.  So "submission" style joint locks have no effect.  You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it.  So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation.  It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.



Yeah and often time PCP users are in a state of hallucination and are receiving dumps of adrenaline and cortisol. They might not even recognize you as police....you can become part of their hallucination.

And they feel pain on top of that.

Theoretically, you could do open heart surgery while having a conversation with someone on PCP since they do not feel anything.

It’s some scary stuff


----------



## ballen0351

CB Jones said:


> Yeah and often time PCP users are in a state of hallucination and are receiving dumps of adrenaline and cortisol. They might not even recognize you as police....you can become part of their hallucination.
> 
> And they feel pain on top of that.
> 
> Theoretically, you could do open heart surgery while having a conversation with someone on PCP since they do not feel anything.
> 
> It’s some scary stuff


And they like to hump things


----------



## ballen0351

My favorite is when they are naked humping a park bench and the neighborhood residents are dumping milk all over them because for some reason they believe milk is the narcan for PCP.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ballen0351 said:


> My favorite is when they are naked humping a park bench and the neighborhood residents are dumping milk all over them because for some reason they believe milk is the narcan for PCP.


That really, honestly, sounds like something from a Monty Python skit.


----------



## ballen0351

gpseymour said:


> That really, honestly, sounds like something from a Monty Python skit.


I watched a guy get practically waterboarded with a gallon of milk one day.  I stood there in amazement as 4 guys held him down and his mother was dumping a gallon of milk on his face.  He looked like a dog when you spray them with a water hose and they try to bite the water.


----------



## TMA17

ballen0351 said:


> Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty.  They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force.  They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied.  Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level.  We deal with guys high on PCP very often.  Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it.  So "submission" style joint locks have no effect.  You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it.  So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation.  It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.




Very interesting I didn't know that.  As I was watching the video, I was wondering why the guy didn't try to take him down and subdue him.

In a case like that though, a good submission hold would be beneficial, no?


----------



## ballen0351

TMA17 said:


> In a case like that though, a good submission hold would be beneficial, no?


Depends.  You cant depend on pain to keep him in the hold.  I'm not a small guy I'm 6 ft 260ish at the time and I took a guy on PCP to the ground I was on his back trying to keep him proned out until more units got there.  He Pushed himself up got too his feet while I was still holding onto him and started sprinting down the street with me on his back as I just held on and went for the ride.  Because of the drug + Adreline dump and lack of feeling pain they can push their muscles beyond comfortable levels almost appearing superhuman strength  I watched a guy chew up oyster shells in half and in the process also breaking his teeth out  just before I got there he jumped out the third-floor window.  When we finally got him to the hospital he broke his hip and fractured his spine.  So if you could use a submission hold that wasn't relying on pain and that didn't involve the neck because choke holds or anything that resemble them is against our regulations. But again generally these guys are covered in sweat, many times naked or partially naked, so keeping a hold on them alone is hard.


----------



## ballen0351

TMA17 said:


> Very interesting I didn't know that.  As I was watching the video, I was wondering why the guy didn't try to take him down and subdue him.


They may have tried at the start but realized it wasn't going to work with the 3 or 4 guys there and needed more or perhaps they were too afraid.  Not every cop is prepared for stuff like this.  I've worked with people that shouldn't be a cop and if the SHTF they run.  I literally had a cop run away and get in her car and drive off when I was dealing with a guy with an ax.  I reported her after that incident and they just transferred her to a different unit.  So there are cops that shouldn't be cops on the street.


----------



## JR 137

ballen0351 said:


> My favorite is when they are naked humping a park bench and the neighborhood residents are dumping milk all over them because for some reason they believe milk is the narcan for PCP.


I see LEOs here constantly talking about perpetrators on PCP. Is that drug really that common? I haven’t heard my generation or younger mention it more than a handful of times at best. My parents and people their age - part of the Woodstock-Vietnam war era - talked about it more than anyone else I know combined. Except the LEOs on message boards.

Is PCP some sort of underground epidemic or something? I thought it was opioids, with methamphetamines like crystal meth kinda being second. Although I don’t hear as much about crystal meth anymore. Maybe pharmacies regulating pseudoephedrine took its toll. 

Or are you guys coming across a few guys on it and that stands out most? Or are you using PCP as a generic term? Sorry, I just don’t hear about angel dust very much outside of conversations like this one.


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> They already have that.


Not what I had in mind at all. Picture the UFC, where it’s MMAer vs cop in the cage. Cop in full regular uniform, not what looks like SWAT type stuff. MMAer in regular clothed.

Cop tries to cuff MMAer for a win. MMAer tries to win via MMA rules. An outside official can throw in a stick, rock, etc. at will. He can also open the cage door and send in another MMAer, cop, or send in a whole mix.

That could test the skills. And better than the video you linked to that I watched for about 30 sec. More entertaining too - UFC meets WWF meets the show COPS.

Cops would ride in a police cruiser, motorcycle or horse to the ring, with the COLS show “Bad Boys” theme song playing. Perps would sneak in or ride in in a stolen car. Their entrance music could be NWA’s F The Police or similar.

I wonder if Spike TV would be interested in my pitch. Then again, are they still around?


----------



## ballen0351

JR 137 said:


> I see LEOs here constantly talking about perpetrators on PCP. Is that drug really that common? I haven’t heard my generation or younger mention it more than a handful of times at best. My parents and people their age - part of the Woodstock-Vietnam war era - talked about it more than anyone else I know combined. Except the LEOs on message boards.
> 
> Is PCP some sort of underground epidemic or something? I thought it was opioids, with methamphetamines like crystal meth kinda being second. Although I don’t hear as much about crystal meth anymore. Maybe pharmacies regulating pseudoephedrine took its toll.
> 
> Or are you guys coming across a few guys on it and that stands out most? Or are you using PCP as a generic term? Sorry, I just don’t hear about angel dust very much outside of conversations like this one.


Depends on where you are it's very localized here.  Like we see it all the time here atleast a few times a month.  But I know 25 miles north in the neighboring county they never see it.  Drugs, in general, tend to be regional for example I was a narcotics detective for many years and I have never seen crystal meth on the streets here we have mostly crack, and heroin.  But I talk to cops in the midwest and they say they never see crack its all meth.  Opioids are pretty much everywhere now , mainly because of how easy you can get it.

Also Around here PCP is different then the 60s and 70s "angel dust" PCP that your parent's generation would know.  Here it's a liquid that you dip a cigarette into and then smokes the cigarette.  They call it a dipper.


----------



## CB Jones

JR 137 said:


> I see LEOs here constantly talking about perpetrators on PCP. Is that drug really that common? I haven’t heard my generation or younger mention it more than a handful of times at best. My parents and people their age - part of the Woodstock-Vietnam war era - talked about it more than anyone else I know combined. Except the LEOs on message boards.
> 
> Is PCP some sort of underground epidemic or something? I thought it was opioids, with methamphetamines like crystal meth kinda being second. Although I don’t hear as much about crystal meth anymore. Maybe pharmacies regulating pseudoephedrine took its toll.
> 
> Or are you guys coming across a few guys on it and that stands out most? Or are you using PCP as a generic term? Sorry, I just don’t hear about angel dust very much outside of conversations like this one.



It’s still out there.  We don’t see it a lot but when we do it’s so crazy it stands out.

But we do see a lot of bath salts and synthetic weed that causes a lot of the same effects as PCP.

Those smoking spice are almost like zombies!from the walking dead.

And crystal meth is a huge problem in our area


----------



## JR 137

ballen0351 said:


> Depends on where you are it's very localized here.  Like we see it all the time here atleast a few times a month.  But I know 25 miles north in the neighboring county they never see it.  Drugs, in general, tend to be regional for example I was a narcotics detective for many years and I have never seen crystal meth on the streets here we have mostly crack, and heroin.  But I talk to cops in the midwest and they say they never see crack its all meth.  Opioids are pretty much everywhere now , mainly because of how easy you can get it.
> 
> Also Around here PCP is different then the 60s and 70s "angel dust" PCP that your parent's generation would know.  Here it's a liquid that you dip a cigarette into and then smokes the cigarette.  They call it a dipper.


I agree it’s largely regional as to the epidemics. 

My brother-in-law is a NYS Trooper. I know quite a few LEOs; Troopers and local police. None mention PCP, meth, stuff like that. Here it’s mainly heroine and opioids.

I haven’t heard anyone mention LSD since around high school (I graduated in ‘94) and early college at the latest. Is that even a thing anymore?


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> It’s still out there.  We don’t see it a lot but when we do it’s so crazy it stands out.
> 
> But we do see a lot of bath salts and synthetic weed that causes a lot of the same effects as PCP.
> 
> Those smoking spice are almost like zombies!from the walking dead.
> 
> And crystal meth is a huge problem in our area


If I “like” your post, would that mean that I like meth being a huge problem in your area?


----------



## JR 137

ballen0351 said:


> Depends on where you are it's very localized here.  Like we see it all the time here atleast a few times a month.  But I know 25 miles north in the neighboring county they never see it.  Drugs, in general, tend to be regional for example I was a narcotics detective for many years and I have never seen crystal meth on the streets here we have mostly crack, and heroin.  But I talk to cops in the midwest and they say they never see crack its all meth.  Opioids are pretty much everywhere now , mainly because of how easy you can get it.
> 
> Also Around here PCP is different then the 60s and 70s "angel dust" PCP that your parent's generation would know.  Here it's a liquid that you dip a cigarette into and then smokes the cigarette.  They call it a dipper.


I think they used to sprinkle angel dust into cigarettes and/or joints. Both of my parents said they never did it, but saw enough people get really strung out on it.

I don’t think any drugs are like they were in their generation. Far more potent and messed with.

I’ve never been a drug guy. I remember in college one guy said “I’ve never seen you smoke or snort anything, pop any pills, stuff like that. Why?” My reply “I haven’t lost interest in alcohol yet.” That one got a round of laughs. And most people stopped offering me stuff afterwards.


----------



## ballen0351

JR 137 said:


> I agree it’s largely regional as to the epidemics.
> 
> My brother-in-law is a NYS Trooper. I know quite a few LEOs; Troopers and local police. None mention PCP, meth, stuff like that. Here it’s mainly heroine and opioids.
> 
> I haven’t heard anyone mention LSD since around high school (I graduated in ‘94) and early college at the latest. Is that even a thing anymore?


We have a liberal arts college in my jurisdiction that has some LSD use but not much.  I'm sure there is more then we know about but they keep it on campus and we don't go on campus unless its an emergency.  I did have an informant once that said it was pretty popular on the Naval base because the drug test didn't test for it but I don't know how true that is I never looked into it.


----------



## CB Jones

JR 137 said:


> I agree it’s largely regional as to the epidemics.
> 
> My brother-in-law is a NYS Trooper. I know quite a few LEOs; Troopers and local police. None mention PCP, meth, stuff like that. Here it’s mainly heroine and opioids.
> 
> I haven’t heard anyone mention LSD since around high school (I graduated in ‘94) and early college at the latest. Is that even a thing anymore?



LSD pops up every now and then in spots.

Mexican carrels have really upped the flow of heroin and meth.  They have actually flooded the market with meth.  For example when I came into narcotics in our area meth was 1600-1800 dollars per ounce.....now it’s 200-400 dollars per ounce.


----------



## JR 137

ballen0351 said:


> We have a liberal arts college in my jurisdiction that has some LSD use but not much.  I'm sure there is more then we know about but they keep it on campus and we don't go on campus unless its an emergency.  I did have an informant once that said it was pretty popular on the Naval base because the drug test didn't test for it but I don't know how true that is I never looked into it.


Come to think about it, a lot of the guys who did acid back then were the ones who had to take mandatory urine tests for reasons like probation.


----------



## CB Jones

ballen0351 said:


> We have a liberal arts college in my jurisdiction that has some LSD use but not much.  I'm sure there is more then we know about but they keep it on campus and we don't go on campus unless its an emergency.  I did have an informant once that said it was pretty popular on the Naval base because the drug test didn't test for it but I don't know how true that is I never looked into it.



Tends to be mostly connected to college students when we come across it as well.


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> LSD pops up every now then in spots.
> 
> Mexican carrels have really upped the flow of heroin and meth.  They have actually flooded the market with meth.  For example when I came into narcotics in our area meth was 1600-1800 dollars per ounce.....now it’s 200-400 dollars per ounce.


Supply, demand and competition driving the market. I knew that economics class would make sense one day.


----------



## Buka

That video is exactly what we dealt with earlier in the week. Except we carry no batons, no OC and no tasers. It's either hands on use your firearm. And we had way more cops on top of him than what was shown in that vid.

The biggest problem is you're trying not to injure them, just control them. Pains in the backside those kind of guys.

Edit - out here there's a lot of meth.


----------



## ballen0351

Buka said:


> That video is exactly what we dealt with earlier in the week. Except we carry no batons, no OC and no tasers. It's either hands on use your firearm. And we had way more cops on top of him than what was shown in that vid.
> 
> The biggest problem is you're trying not to injure them, just control them. Pains in the backside those kind of guys.


Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up.  The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.


----------



## Buka

ballen0351 said:


> Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up.  The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.



Ain't that the truth. The biggest problem we have is most of our guys all come from different places, different departments, different states. They all trained in different ways, haven't worked together before. Sometimes it gets kind of keystone.

I so wish I could post the vid I have of the other night. But, alas, no can.


----------



## CB Jones

ballen0351 said:


> Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up.  The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.



I work a plain clothes detail every year where we do stop and frisk on suspected gangbangers and muggers.

It’s made up of guys from different units so takes a little time to mesh.

So the 1st night we approach this group smoking weed on the corner.  Soon as we badge them they break to run.  I grab one and put him up against the wall when I hear J yelling “Same Team, Same Team”.  I turn and look to see T with J in a Full Nelson with J yelling same team.  In the chaos T had grabbed J.  Lol.

J was kinda a small guy and T is much bigger so J’s feet were off the ground and kicking.

Every time we see each other we laugh about “Same Team, Same Team”


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty.  They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force.  They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied.  Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level.  We deal with guys high on PCP very often.  Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it.  So "submission" style joint locks have no effect.  You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it.  So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation.  It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.



I remember my first fight. It went pretty much the same way.

You are saying they hit him with a bat to not escalate the situation.

So seriously let me get this straight. While they were waiting for back up. They just hit the guy every now and then.

Why not just wait?

And do you know what a pin in as supposed to a submission?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> That really, honestly, sounds like something from a Monty Python skit.


----------



## drop bear

TMA17 said:


> Very interesting I didn't know that.  As I was watching the video, I was wondering why the guy didn't try to take him down and subdue him.
> 
> In a case like that though, a good submission hold would be beneficial, no?



When the guys backing you up are looking for a place to hide. You wait for more guys.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I remember my first fight. It went pretty much the same way.


Your first fight was with 4 cops?


> You are saying they hit him with a bat to not escalate the situation.


They didn't hit him with a bat.  And I clearly stated they targeted what we call green areas on the body when they could have escalated the force since the strikes were not working but for some reason didn't they continued to hit the same areas.


> So seriously let me get this straight. While they were waiting for back up. They just hit the guy every now and then.


Looks that way doesn't it.


> Why not just wait?


Don't know go ask them.  They still have a duty to attempt.  They can't just stand there looking at each other especially as more and more people are showing up to watch and are starting to try and get involved.  


> And do you know what a pin in as supposed to a submission?


Sure and I'm saying a guy that size who is under the influence isn't as easy as you think.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Your first fight was with 4 cops?
> 
> They didn't hit him with a bat.  And I clearly stated they targeted what we call green areas on the body when they could have escalated the force since the strikes were not working but for some reason didn't they continued to hit the same areas.
> 
> Looks that way doesn't it.
> 
> Don't know go ask them.  They still have a duty to attempt.  They can't just stand there looking at each other especially as more and more people are showing up to watch and are starting to try and get involved.
> 
> Sure and I'm saying a guy that size who is under the influence isn't as easy as you think.



Wow.......... Just........wow.

Ok. So the method that actually worked was dropping the guy on the deck and sitting on him. 

How about getting good at doing that?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Wow.......... Just........wow.
> 
> Ok. So the method that actually worked was dropping the guy on the deck and sitting on him.
> 
> How about getting good at doing that?


UMMM they did.  In fact, I clearly stated that is the preferred method of dealing with these guys later on in the thread....


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> UMMM they did.  In fact, I clearly stated that is the preferred method of dealing with these guys later on in the thread....



So then why defend the rubbish method of green areas?

Get really good at takedowns and pins.

Hmmmmmm. I wonder where I could get really good at that?

This homeless guy with no police training gets it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

ballen0351 said:


> Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up.  The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.


I remember one of my instructors talking about this. He served on a fugitive retrieval task force, and he'd often be the first in to take the guy down. Then other officers would join in, and part of the time, in all the confusion, they'd end up undoing whatever lock he'd managed.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> So then why defend the rubbish method of green areas?


Because it works.  NOTHING is 100% but I can tell you from experience a sold baton strike to the leg can make people decide to stop fighting.  No so much that it hurts but just the mental aspect of "Damn that cop hit me with a baton he's going to really hurt me"  However that doesnt work on someone thats mentally incapacitated like the guy in the video.



> Get really good at takedowns and pins.


They did once they got enough people.  He was taken down and cuffed and not seriously injured.  That's a win.  Who cares what it looks like to the untrained guy sitting safely on his couch telling them everything they "should" have done.

Hmmmmmm. I wonder where I could get really good at that?[/quote]
HMMMM we teach it in our DT Curriculum.   Your classes wouldn't help much more than that with only the same 2 weeks of training


> This homeless guy with no police training gets it.


I'm not really sure what a few random out of context videos are supposed to prove?  What training and experience did the homeless guy have?  Nothing in the vidoe shows the homeless guy pinning anyone.   For every video, you find of an officer looking silly I can find one of the officer kicking some dudes behind.  Both would be irrelevant to the discussion.


If you want me to analyze every stupid video you find well I cant.  I wasn't there I don't know what they know.  I'll just say when you in those types of situations sometimes your brain doesn't make rational choices.  Like continuing to strike someone in the leg when its clearly not working.   It's easy to sit here at my computer and say "well that's stupid he should do _____"  BUT having been in those situations I can say I've done stupid things too because it takes a little while for your brain to catch up.  Its the nature of the beast.  Would more training help sure it would but as we already said most cops won't train any extra.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not really sure what a few random out of context videos are supposed to prove? For every video you find of an officer looking silly I can find one of the officer kicking some dudes behind. Both would be irrelevant to the discussion.



That's right because we don't go off actual videos we can see. And judge by real incidents. 

We have to go off your say so. 

I wonder why nobody can show what DT. actually looks like?

I wonder why DT instructors dont have a compilation of their methods working?






Hmmmmmmmmm.......


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> If you want me to analyze every stupid video you find well I cant. I wasn't there I don't know what they know. I'll just say when you in those types of situations sometimes your brain doesn't make rational choices. Like continuing to strike someone in the leg when its clearly not working. It's easy to sit here at my computer and say "well that's stupid he should do _____" BUT having been in those situations I can say I've done stupid things too because it takes a little while for your brain to catch up. Its the nature of the beast. Would more training help sure it would but as we already said most cops won't train any extra.



Yet.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> That's right because we don't go off actual videos we can see. And judge by real incidents.
> 
> We have to go off your say so.


Nope, we can Look at the actual statistic.  Actual arrest numbers.  The info is out there the D.O.J, the F.B.I the I.A.C.P. all post use of force stats.  Go look them up.  


> I wonder why nobody can show what DT. actually looks like?



I wonder why DT instructors dont have a compilation of their methods working?[/quote]
We do go watch LivePD or COPS or like I said walk down to the PD and tell them they couldn't arrest you.  


> Hmmmmmmmmm.......


Who is he?  Where does he work?  What training does he have?  He is selling a video system he invented and doesn't even have a website that I could see listing his training or experience.  On his Amazon page he's listed as an "actor" so do we even know if he's a cop?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Don't know go ask them. They still have a duty to attempt. They can't just stand there looking



Wait what?

Anyway.

Let's look at more untrained non police officers basically getting the process. 
https://thewest.com.au/news/perth/c...fficer-make-canning-vale-arrest-ng-b88875217z


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Yet.


AND?  What training did the LVPD have?  Im not sure what your point is?  I don't think I have ever said more training is bad.  The point is you won't get a VAST majority of cops to do extra training

On a side note, I for one am SHOCKED someone (The Gracies the kings of infomercials) trying to sell a program to people would do a video telling people how good their training is.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Wait what?


  sorry, what didn't you understand?  They are still trying to take the guy into custody and the guy is still charging at them you cant all 5 just stand around looking at each other because the bag guy isn't going to cooperate.  



> Let's look at more untrained non police officers basically getting the process.
> https://thewest.com.au/news/perth/c...fficer-make-canning-vale-arrest-ng-b88875217z


again irrelevant


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> AND?  What training did the LVPD have?  Im not sure what your point is?  I don't think I have ever said more training is bad.  The point is you won't get a VAST majority of cops to do extra training
> 
> On a side note, I for one am SHOCKED someone (The Gracies the kings of infomercials) trying to sell a program to people would do a video telling people how good their training is.



Imagine the billions of police we don't see using BJJ. 






But yes I don't like their marketing that much. They do provide evidence.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Imagine the billions of police we don't see using BJJ.


I do believe my very 1st post said exactly that I wish more cops would train.  Bjj would have pretty crappy results if only taught for 2 weeks.


> But yes I don't like their marketing that much. They do provide evidence.


evidence in a controlled environment with rules and a script designed for their infomercial with retakes and editing.


----------



## CB Jones

Do we have to keep beating the dead horse.

Drop bear we will concede you are a greater fighter than all police officers....now can we move on.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> sorry, what didn't you understand?  They are still trying to take the guy into custody and the guy is still charging at them you cant all 5 just stand around looking at each other because the bag guy isn't going to cooperate.
> 
> 
> again irrelevant



Yes you can. If he is not an immediate threat or a flight risk. Stall. 

You seriously have to hit a guy with a bat every 30sec or so to what. Appear active?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Yes you can. If he is not an immediate threat or a flight risk. Stall.
> 
> You seriously have to hit a guy with a bat every 30sec or so to what. Appear active?


Here let me post this again since you didnt read it the first time:

If you want me to analyze every stupid video you find well I cant. I wasn't there I don't know what they know. I'll just say when you in those types of situations sometimes your brain doesn't make rational choices. Like continuing to strike someone in the leg when its clearly not working. It's easy to sit here at my computer and say "well that's stupid he should do _____" BUT having been in those situations I can say I've done stupid things too because it takes a little while for your brain to catch up. Its the nature of the beast. Would more training help sure it would but as we already said most cops won't train any extra.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Do we have to keep beating the dead horse.
> 
> Drop bear we will concede you are a greater fighter than all police officers....now can we move on.



I have seen the training do more harm than good. It is not about my  ego here.

It is about making cops safe.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I have seen the training do more harm than good. It is not about my  ego here.


its 100% your ego


> It is about making cops safe.


So tell me how posting irrelevant videos makes anyone safer?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Here let me post this again since you didnt read it the first time:
> 
> If you want me to analyze every stupid video you find well I cant. I wasn't there I don't know what they know. I'll just say when you in those types of situations sometimes your brain doesn't make rational choices. Like continuing to strike someone in the leg when its clearly not working. It's easy to sit here at my computer and say "well that's stupid he should do _____" BUT having been in those situations I can say I've done stupid things too because it takes a little while for your brain to catch up. Its the nature of the beast. Would more training help sure it would but as we already said most cops won't train any extra.



 your million billion examples don't really match what I am showing. 

They don't match my million billion experiences either to be honest.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> its 100% your ego
> 
> So tell me how posting irrelevant videos makes anyone safer?



I am not selling DT. I am not even selling BJJ.

Hell i do MMA.

The videos show how real fights look. So that people can have their own opinion on the situation cops face without having it filtered by people who's egos are on the line here.

So that they can look at real police fights and make an informed decision on how to keep themselves safe. 

Because you don't seem fit to provide that information.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> your million billion examples don't really match what I am showing.
> 
> They don't match my million billion experiences either to be honest.


Well who would have guessed your experiences as a bouncer in Australia is different than mine as a Police officer in the US


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I am not selling DT. I am not even selling BJJ.
> 
> Hell i do MMA.
> 
> The videos show how real fights look. So that people can have their own opinion on the situation cops face without having it filtered by people who's egos are on the line here.


Again how are you making anyone safe posting videos?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Well who would have guessed your experiences as a bouncer in Australia is different than mine as a Police officer in the US



And yet the videos show similar experiences.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> And yet the videos show similar experiences.


LOL I highly doubt it but ok You win.  MMA Rules Cops Drool.  Every Cop should be required to go learn MMA.


----------



## Headhunter

ballen0351 said:


> LOL I highly doubt it but ok You win.  MMA Rules Cops Drool.  Every Cop should be required to go learn MMA.


Yeah well this is a guy who constantly tells people to quit their style and go and do Mma...even if they're not asking for that type of advice


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> LOL I highly doubt it but ok You win.  MMA Rules Cops Drool.  Every Cop should be required to go learn MMA.













There are quite a few cops who share that opinion.


----------



## CB Jones

So here is a use of force that caused a big stir a couple years ago.  I don't have a problem with the takedown its Bourbon Street and can get crazy down there.  But many in the media and social media thought it was excessive.






I remember afterwards news interviewed his attorney who claimed they were in the process of filing a complaint with the feds but I never heard the outcome.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I am not selling DT. I am not even selling BJJ.
> 
> Hell i do MMA.
> 
> The videos show how real fights look. So that people can have their own opinion on the situation cops face without having it filtered by people who's egos are on the line here.
> 
> So that they can look at real police fights and make an informed decision on how to keep themselves safe.
> 
> Because you don't seem fit to provide that information.


Look up selection bias. Do you really think videos of cops making quick arrests are going to be posted as often as shitstorms?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> There are quite a few cops who share that opinion.


I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.  I've said several times so far that I wish cops would train BJJ or Boxing or Krav or Judo or anything for that matter I just want them to train.  I have nothing against BJJ.  The problem is MOST cops dont train in anything after leaving the academy and a few random Inservice classes throughout thier careers.  So if these random cops I dont know want to push BJJ great more power to them.  I know Cops that train BJJ, I know one that trains Sambo, I know some that are boxers  I train goju and there are a few federal agents at my school.  I'm glad for all of them that they take the time on thier own to train.


----------



## Headhunter

drop bear said:


> There are quite a few cops who share that opinion.


So 2 videos = quite a few cops?


----------



## Buka

“Don’t argue with fools, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
                    - Greg King


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Look up selection bias. Do you really think videos of cops making quick arrests are going to be posted as often as shitstorms?



So this is why some methods allways appear on YouTube as being successful?

Proven grappling, proven striking generally shown to work and work constantly. And the more esoteric methods never do.

And we see this across the board of the spectrum of human conflict.

And we hear this anecdotally across the board of the spectrum of human conflict.

But what the argument seems to be at this stage is there is all this conflict that is occurring using methods that are so fundementally different that only a specialized instructor from a specific country can understand the process. 

This is occurring away from the public eye in such a manner that nobody has a chance to film this or record it. Even though people are filming and recording other conflict involving exactly the people we are discussing.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.  I've said several times so far that I wish cops would train BJJ or Boxing or Krav or Judo or anything for that matter I just want them to train.  I have nothing against BJJ.  The problem is MOST cops dont train in anything after leaving the academy and a few random Inservice classes throughout thier careers.  So if these random cops I dont know want to push BJJ great more power to them.  I know Cops that train BJJ, I know one that trains Sambo, I know some that are boxers  I train goju and there are a few federal agents at my school.  I'm glad for all of them that they take the time on their own to train.



But what about the million cops who do their job fine with just two weeks training?


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> So here is a use of force that caused a big stir a couple years ago.  I don't have a problem with the takedown its Bourbon Street and can get crazy down there.  But many in the media and social media thought it was excessive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember afterwards news interviewed his attorney who claimed they were in the process of filing a complaint with the feds but I never heard the outcome.



I knew a guy who did two years for pretty much doing that.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> “Don’t argue with fools, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
> - Greg King


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> But what about the million cops who do their job fine with just two weeks training?


what about them?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> what about them?



They are according to you proof of the success of two week programs.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> They are according to you proof of the success of two week programs.


Correct.  The statistics show it.  Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't make it less true.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Correct.  The statistics show it.  Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't make it less true.



Then why would anyone need more training?

The success rate is phenomenal.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Then why would anyone need more training?
> 
> The success rate is phenomenal.


They don't "need" anything that's why I said it shouldn't be mandatory.  But more is always better.


----------



## ballen0351

I also think they should get more range time other than twice a year, More constitution and criminal law classes, tactics classes on active shooter, building searches, vehicle stops, more training on alot of things because it just makes everyone better.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> I knew a guy who did two years for pretty much doing that.



A police officer?


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> A police officer?



Bouncer. 

A lot of things went really wrong for him though.

He was dodging punches, had the guy around the neck and his work colleagues wrote reports that screwed him. 

And knocked out one of the guys teeth on the fall.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> I also think they should get more range time other than twice a year, More constitution and criminal law classes, tactics classes on active shooter, building searches, vehicle stops, more training on alot of things because it just makes everyone better.



But nobody does because nobody cares.

Police are disposable.

Arguing two weeks is good enough doesn't help.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> But nobody does because nobody cares.
> 
> Police are disposable.
> 
> Arguing two weeks is good enough doesn't help.


Arguing BJJ is better on an internet forum doesnt help either. 

However as an instructor I along with other instructors have tried for YEARS to get more training mandated in my state without success.


----------



## Buka

Speaking of cops. This made me laugh my butt off.

Undercover cops pulled over by impersonator


----------



## ballen0351

Buka said:


> Speaking of cops. This made me laugh my butt off.
> 
> Undercover cops pulled over by impersonator



That's like my dream lol.  I want some fake cop to pull me over so bad


----------



## jks9199

Buka said:


> Speaking of cops. This made me laugh my butt off.
> 
> Undercover cops pulled over by impersonator


Happens a couple times a year, in one way or another...  

Back to the topic...

I recalled something I often do when people start talking about police use of force and wondering why it's so hard to arrest someone...  I compare it to dressing a toddler -- who's full grown.  Why?  If you've ever tried to dress a toddler who doesn't want to get dressed, you know...  You're doing all you can to get the clothes on them, and they just squirm and move, and it'd be easy if you didn't care about hurting them... but you can't just mash 'em into the changing table.  Arresting an adult isn't that different for a cop... Our goal is to use the force needed, no more, and not to injure the person.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Arguing BJJ is better on an internet forum doesnt help either.
> 
> However as an instructor I along with other instructors have tried for YEARS to get more training mandated in my state without success.



Arguing BJJ is better helps until someone can fix DT.

And nobody is going to fix DT any time soon.

And DT instructors mostly just can't be told without them having a world class sook.

So for police. Smile. Nod. Do the DT.

Then go and enroll in a bjj school. Because it is better.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Arguing BJJ is better helps until someone can fix DT.
> 
> And nobody is going to fix DT any time soon.
> 
> And DT instructors mostly just can't be told without them having a world class sook.
> 
> So for police. Smile. Nod. Do the DT.
> 
> Then go and enroll in a bjj school. Because it is better.


Except you are not and have never been  nor have you ever taken a police DT class so your opinion is welllllllll......nevermind Bjj good cops bad....lather rinse repeat.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> So this is why some methods allways appear on YouTube as being successful?
> 
> Proven grappling, proven striking generally shown to work and work constantly. And the more esoteric methods never do.
> 
> And we see this across the board of the spectrum of human conflict.
> 
> And we hear this anecdotally across the board of the spectrum of human conflict.
> 
> But what the argument seems to be at this stage is there is all this conflict that is occurring using methods that are so fundementally different that only a specialized instructor from a specific country can understand the process.
> 
> This is occurring away from the public eye in such a manner that nobody has a chance to film this or record it. Even though people are filming and recording other conflict involving exactly the people we are discussing.


You're deflecting this to a discussion of whether some MA systems are good or not. That has nothing to do with what I posted, and you know that quite well. You're just trying to drag out old arguments that really don't have bearing to what we're talking about.

You've completely missed the point some are making when they say you don't get it. See, the statements you're making about DT are like saying "martial arts suck for fight training". It's way too general, and can't possibly be applied to the entire population of "martial arts" (or DT). You have seen some DT. You haven't seen the vast majority of what is DT - nobody has. People involved in the industry are much more familiar with some aspects of it than people who are not.

On top of that, you're comparing ongoing training to what is available via mandatory 2-week training. The instructors don't get to decide on that length of time (every DT instructor I've ever known wished for more time and more frequent retraining), so your comments impugning their integrity for offering that training are completely out of line. What they generally accomplish in that short time is pretty impressive. Cops in general tend to do a decent job handling most of the violence they have to deal with, using methods that are passed on mostly by other cops who have used those methods successfully in the field.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Arguing BJJ is better helps until someone can fix DT.
> 
> And nobody is going to fix DT any time soon.
> 
> And DT instructors mostly just can't be told without them having a world class sook.
> 
> So for police. Smile. Nod. Do the DT.
> 
> Then go and enroll in a bjj school. Because it is better.


So, 2 weeks of BJJ will fix it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Then why would anyone need more training?
> 
> The success rate is phenomenal.


Somehow, you've decided "working" = "optimal".

Unbelievable.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Speaking of cops. This made me laugh my butt off.
> 
> Undercover cops pulled over by impersonator


We had one of those happen 20 or so years ago in South Carolina. Warms my soul, that does.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> So, 2 weeks of BJJ will fix it?



Nope. That is why you don't get 2 week BJJ programs.

Ok. Provided the instructor has a real mechanical grasp on the technique. (And that isn't guaranteed. And if he doesn't guys who do understand the mechanics are not able to imput)

They compromise on time.

And therefore compromise on techniques that take time to learn. So because they have easy to apply but potentially no longer high percentage techniques to work from they have to manufacture wins within the training.

 So things like sparring go out the window. And they start using combat scenarios.

All of this make any approximation of how a real fight works goes pretty much out the window.

But they also set the standard of what is expected in a real fight. So restraint and control is expected to look like the training. But it doesn't because they are not training realistically.


So this is supposed to work in a fight.





If it doesn't work. Then you are doing it wrong.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Except you are not and have never been  nor have you ever taken a police DT class so your opinion is welllllllll......nevermind Bjj good cops bad....lather rinse repeat.



Yeah. The only opinion that matters is DT instructors.

I have done PPCT. That was terrible.


----------



## JR 137

Buka said:


> Speaking of cops. This made me laugh my butt off.
> 
> Undercover cops pulled over by impersonator


I didn’t read it, but I’m quite sure I know what happened.

We had an impersonator try to pull over a woman here in my hometown a godd 15 years ago or so. It would’ve been hard to chose a worse target:

Her father was their of police. She called him and quickly lead him to his house. Her two brothers were COs at the county jail, where he was initially brought.

He slipped in the shower. Two days in a row. Nobody saw nuthin’. I guess they should install bath mats or something.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Nope. That is why you don't get 2 week BJJ programs.
> 
> Ok. Provided the instructor has a real mechanical grasp on the technique. (And that isn't guaranteed. And if he doesn't guys who do understand the mechanics are not able to imput)
> 
> They compromise on time.
> 
> And therefore compromise on techniques that take time to learn. So because they have easy to apply but potentially no longer high percentage techniques to work from they have to manufacture wins within the training.
> 
> So things like sparring go out the window. And they start using combat scenarios.
> 
> All of this make any approximation of how a real fight works goes pretty much out the window.
> 
> But they also set the standard of what is expected in a real fight. So restraint and control is expected to look like the training. But it doesn't because they are not training realistically.
> 
> 
> So this is supposed to work in a fight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it doesn't work. Then you are doing it wrong.


But you're missing the issue. You're comparing long-term training in BJJ to the quick results from DT. They are not comparable. Both together is better than either alone.

2 weeks is current reality most places. It just is. Wishing it weren't doesn't do anybody any good. DT accomplishes quite a lot in that time.

As for the rest, that's still more suppositions. Yes, there will be some scenario training with established limits. That's an efficient way to make sure you cover what's more common, without getting dragged off into wild scenarios by folks who want to find out every "what if". I know for a fact that some DT involves actual sparring. How common is that? Dunno. I'm sure it's not very extensive even in those programs that have it, because there's such limited time to work with. But it does happen.

So, is long-term training in BJJ (on top of DT) better than just short-time DT? Hell yes. But that's not BJJ being superior. Long-term DT - where it's backed by actual experience and uses good information and feedback - would also be much better than short-time DT.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> But you're missing the issue. You're comparing long-term training in BJJ to the quick results from DT. They are not comparable. Both together is better than either alone.



Why aren't they comparable?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> As for the rest, that's still more suppositions.



I have shown videos of DT training that show the functionally bad training model. I am supposing. 

There is no counter evidence so far.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> So, is long-term training in BJJ (on top of DT) better than just short-time DT? Hell yes. But that's not BJJ being superior. Long-term DT - where it's backed by actual experience and uses good information and feedback - would also be much better than short-time DT.



Where does this exist?


----------



## Buka

I would have liked to have seen this whole scene in it's entirety. I would have also liked to have seen when backup arrived. 






Every kind of training you have helps you. Bu as someone who trains BJJ, Defensive Tactics and works for a living in Law Enforcement, perhaps I'm jaded.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Why aren't they comparable?


You seriously can't see that?

Is long-term training in BJJ better than a couple of weeks?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I have shown videos of DT training that show the functionally bad training model. I am supposing.
> 
> There is no counter evidence so far.


The counter evidence is all the cops who do their jobs successfully when things go physical.

As for the videos you posted, some do not look (to me) to be official DT training - those don't usually have any reason for advertising, and some of those were clearly advertising videos. As for any that actually were DT, again, we're back to the issue of you lumping literally thousands of different systems into a single pot, and labeling them according to those videos. Does a video of someone being ill-trained in Taekwondo show that all martial arts are ill-trained? Does it even show that all TKD is ill-trained??


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Where does this exist?


I'm not aware anywhere it exists.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Nope. That is why you don't get 2 week BJJ programs.
> .


Well then now you see the real problem.  
Thankfully for what it is better or worse what we teach now over two weeks is working MOST of the time. 
Is it the best solution? Nope.  
Would I love to spend several months training new officers in DT?  Sure.  
BUT we get a total of 6 to 7 months here to train all aspects of law enforcement, not just 1 topic.  It already takes over a year from the time someone initially applies to be a police officer too when they are finally on the street by themselves doing the job we pay them for, and that's if everything goes smooth.  Telling PD's, Mayors, County Councils, Police Chiefs we need to add a few more months to the training for DT wouldn't fly mainly because what they are taught now is working. So we can't justify the need.  

Does it ALWAYS work all the time?  Nope, you have found a few videos online. 
Does anything work 100%? Nope.  

You can argue until your blue in the face that BJJ is the best thing for PD's and even if you were right it won't change the fact that we only get 2 weeks to train in DT.  Part of the 2 weeks has to be spent on other things besides pure self-defense things like handcuffing techniques and classroom time describing the Use of Force continuum,  How to move from hands to OC or Taser or Baton etc. 

SO sure BJJ is fine for people to learn on their own if they want.  As I've said numerous times anything is better than nothing.

Given my choice, if I were to take a specific Art to make a Police DT course out of I would use Judo (However I fully admit I don't know much about a lot of other styles so there may be something even better).  I think the takedowns are more important than the ground game and Judo has better takedowns. I trained for about 18 months at a local Judo Dojo and was able to use two or three simple takedowns multiple times very effectively on the street.  So much so I added 2 of them to my DT course I teach and submitted them to the review board to be added to the official program.  One of them was added to the program the other was deemed to have a higher risk of injury to the suspect so it wasn't added.  I think some very basic ground grappling is fine since most people don't have any training in anything (Which may also be why 2 weeks of DT works most of the time because most suspects have no training). Which is why any advanced training in BJJ wouldn't really be needed.  Nothing wrong with it but for the most part it's unnecessary.

SO feel free to find 10 more videos of cops doing a poor job with DT.  It won't change the real problem which is time....


----------



## Buka

When a person has never actually trained in something, and said person has never actually worked in the field being discussed, and said person has never set foot in the part of the world being talked about....

Darn good thing there's youtube. It has become the mother of all keyboard warriors.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You seriously can't see that?
> 
> Is long-term training in BJJ better than a couple of weeks?



Yes. Please explain why a 2 week program is not part of the pros and cons factor when compared to an ongoing program.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Well then now you see the real problem.
> Thankfully for what it is better or worse what we teach now over two weeks is working MOST of the time.
> Is it the best solution? Nope.
> Would I love to spend several months training new officers in DT?  Sure.
> BUT we get a total of 6 to 7 months here to train all aspects of law enforcement, not just 1 topic.  It already takes over a year from the time someone initially applies to be a police officer too when they are finally on the street by themselves doing the job we pay them for, and that's if everything goes smooth.  Telling PD's, Mayors, County Councils, Police Chiefs we need to add a few more months to the training for DT wouldn't fly mainly because what they are taught now is working. So we can't justify the need.
> 
> Does it ALWAYS work all the time?  Nope, you have found a few videos online.
> Does anything work 100%? Nope.
> 
> You can argue until your blue in the face that BJJ is the best thing for PD's and even if you were right it won't change the fact that we only get 2 weeks to train in DT.  Part of the 2 weeks has to be spent on other things besides pure self-defense things like handcuffing techniques and classroom time describing the Use of Force continuum,  How to move from hands to OC or Taser or Baton etc.
> 
> SO sure BJJ is fine for people to learn on their own if they want.  As I've said numerous times anything is better than nothing.
> 
> Given my choice, if I were to take a specific Art to make a Police DT course out of I would use Judo (However I fully admit I don't know much about a lot of other styles so there may be something even better).  I think the takedowns are more important than the ground game and Judo has better takedowns. I trained for about 18 months at a local Judo Dojo and was able to use two or three simple takedowns multiple times very effectively on the street.  So much so I added 2 of them to my DT course I teach and submitted them to the review board to be added to the official program.  One of them was added to the program the other was deemed to have a higher risk of injury to the suspect so it wasn't added.  I think some very basic ground grappling is fine since most people don't have any training in anything (Which may also be why 2 weeks of DT works most of the time because most suspects have no training). Which is why any advanced training in BJJ wouldn't really be needed.  Nothing wrong with it but for the most part it's unnecessary.
> 
> SO feel free to find 10 more videos of cops doing a poor job with DT.  It won't change the real problem which is time....



I use time because it is the most cut and dried point. It isn't just time. There is some seriously impractical stuff being practiced by some seriously unqualified guys. 

And because DT basically won't show its system or show its instructors show they have the depth of knowledge. 

Nobody will know which system works and which system doesn't until they go out, find a bad guy and fight him. 

And so that specifically avoids all this ducking and diving that gets done. 

And of course then DT instructors can say their special system that nobody can see is specifically designed for police in America to handle the specific American criminals.

And so basic good grappling doesn't factor. 

You are creating the same circumstance as these Chinese Kung fu masters. Who have their secret systems. Who support their isolationist views and who reap the benifits of training geared to the whims of the instructor rather than the needs of the system.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I use time because it is the most cut and dried point. It isn't just time. There is some seriously impractical stuff being practiced by some seriously unqualified guys.
> 
> And because DT basically won't show its system or show its instructors show they have the depth of knowledge.
> 
> Nobody will know which system works and which system doesn't until they go out, find a bad guy and fight him.
> 
> And so that specifically avoids all this ducking and diving that gets done.
> 
> And of course then DT instructors can say their special system that nobody can see is specifically designed for police in America to handle the specific American criminals.
> 
> And so basic good grappling doesn't factor.
> 
> You are creating the same circumstance as these Chinese Kung fu masters. Who have their secret systems. Who support their isolationist views and who reap the benifits of training geared to the whims of the instructor rather than the needs of the system.


OK You are right we are all wrong. Have a great day


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> OK You are right we are all wrong. Have a great day



Sorry. Haven't finished. Just finding more YouTube videos.






And so because of this whole closed shop isolated approach you don't get anywhere near the depth of talent that you would from an open accountable approach. 

Now I don't do kung fu in China. But it is pretty obvious this guys system needs work. 

I don't do police DT in America but it is obvious your system needs work. 

Because I can look at the results.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Sorry. Haven't finished. Just finding more YouTube videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And so because of this whole closed shop isolated approach you don't get anywhere near the depth of talent that you would from an open accountable approach.
> 
> Now I don't do kung fu in China. But it is pretty obvious this guys system needs work.
> 
> I don't do police DT in America but it is obvious your system needs work.
> 
> Because I can look at the results.


OK Thanks, I'll make sure to pass this along to the guys that do this every day and evaluate it all the time.  Do you have contact info I'm sure they would love to hear your opinion?


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> The counter evidence is all the cops who do their jobs successfully when things go physical.
> 
> As for the videos you posted, some do not look (to me) to be official DT training - those don't usually have any reason for advertising, and some of those were clearly advertising videos. As for any that actually were DT, again, we're back to the issue of you lumping literally thousands of different systems into a single pot, and labeling them according to those videos. Does a video of someone being ill-trained in Taekwondo show that all martial arts are ill-trained? Does it even show that all TKD is ill-trained??



I am making a point and then supporting that point with evidence. 

So police cannot control people well and then escalate.
(shows video)

police are not getting adequate training
(shows video)

police do not have a high opinion of DT.
(shows video)

DT training can be impractical
(shows video)

police can use BJJ to effectively restrain criminals in America. (Because the country is important)

(Shows video)

Now I have said dropping scumbags to the deck and restraining them is pretty much the same in every profession that does it in every part of the world.

(And I can show video of that if you want as well.)

Apparently there are specific conditions that validate this non system. That nobody can show video of. 

If I wanted to suggest TKD is any good. I will go and show video of good TKD. and then explain why that particular TKD produces better results. I would certainly not try to tell you that fighting in Korea is so different that they need a specific system.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> OK Thanks, I'll make sure to pass this along to the guys that do this every day and evaluate it all the time.  Do you have contact info I'm sure they would love to hear your opinion?



Don't worry. They don't want external opinions. They are happy with the system. And happy with the results.

And there is plenty of BJJ out there if police want to learn a usable skill.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Don't worry. They don't want external opinions. They are happy with the system. And happy with the results.
> 
> And there is plenty of BJJ out there if police want to learn a usable skill.


And you still haven't addressed the biggest issue......TIME.  We get 2 weeks that's it no more no less.  So once you figure out how to teach a system that is more effective then what we currently have in 2 weeks please let us know.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> And you still haven't addressed the biggest issue......TIME.  We get 2 weeks that's it no more no less.  So once you figure out how to teach a system that is more effective then what we currently have in 2 weeks please let us know.



Two weeks is enough time as a liability buffer.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Two weeks is enough time as a liability buffer.


Ok more time isnt an option so


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Yes. Please explain why a 2 week program is not part of the pros and cons factor when compared to an ongoing program.


Because it's not "BJJ vs. DT" you're really talking about. It's "2-weeks vs ongoing". And then you have the gall to blame the instructors and call their integrity into question, when they do NOT get to make that call.

Nobody here has said 2 weeks was ideal. You've been arguing as if they've said that. Which is complete crap.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Sorry. Haven't finished. Just finding more YouTube videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And so because of this whole closed shop isolated approach you don't get anywhere near the depth of talent that you would from an open accountable approach.
> 
> Now I don't do kung fu in China. But it is pretty obvious this guys system needs work.
> 
> I don't do police DT in America but it is obvious your system needs work.
> 
> Because I can look at the results.


Do you not see what you just did. You took a video of one guy, and said "his system needs work" (a reasonable statement). Then you took videos of several different systems (some not even actual, official DT, apparently) and said to someone in DT, "Your system needs work."

That's like me looking at a bunch of Karate and TKD videos and telling some savate guy his system clearly needs work. You've lost it, mate.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Because it's not "BJJ vs. DT" you're really talking about. It's "2-weeks vs ongoing". And then you have the gall to blame the instructors and call their integrity into question, when they do NOT get to make that call.
> 
> Nobody here has said 2 weeks was ideal. You've been arguing as if they've said that. Which is complete crap.



Two weeks is enough time to protect departments from liability. 

Using a system designed to protect departments from liability.

For the purpose these courses are designed for. Two weeks is ideal. Because nobody actually needs to have usable skills so long as there is protection from liability. 

It is not my fault instructors can't have more time or teach better skills. All I can direct people to do is go to where instructors do have more time and can teach better skills.

I am not suggesting I could teach cops in two weeks. If someone came to me and asked. I would direct them to a qualified expert in an ongoing system. Because that will give that person the best chance.

If you can't build a car with breaks. Don't build the car.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Do you not see what you just did. You took a video of one guy, and said "his system needs work" (a reasonable statement). Then you took videos of several different systems (some not even actual, official DT, apparently) and said to someone in DT, "Your system needs work."
> 
> That's like me looking at a bunch of Karate and TKD videos and telling some savate guy his system clearly needs work. You've lost it, mate.



Same way I would evaluate psychic powers. 

So Barry has psychic powers. Barry argues he helps millions of people.

I tell Barry that his powers are not real. Barry says I can't comment because I am not psychic.

I ask Barry for evidence and he says that he has helped all these people it is evidence.

I show a YouTube video of psychic powers being debunked. Barry says that psychic wasn't a real psychic. 

Does Barry have a video of his powers? No silly not everything that happens occurs on YouTube.

I say Barry might be fleecing people. Barry takes the moral high ground.

I tell people to do BJJ because at least we know it works.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I ask Barry for evidence and he says that he has helped all these people it is evidence.


Except the evidence is there.  Multiple Govt. Agencies keep stats on arrest numbers, use of force numbers, line of duty deaths, suspect deaths.  They are long and boring reports sometimes 100s of pages long.  I'm not going to post a 150-page report from the FBI on use of force numbers on this site.  Not, because its a "secret" but because it's already out there for anyone to go look for and read so there is no need and quite frankly its pretty boring.  I could post 1000's of hours of videos from different TV Shows like COPS and LIVE PD where they followed around cops for years and you could watch them and see 1000's of clips of officers using force effectively but why?  What's the point?  What's it prove? 
Point is the information is out there its not my responsibility to find it for you.  We both know you have no real interest in seeing the data since it doesn't fit your narrative.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Two weeks is enough time to protect departments from liability.
> 
> Using a system designed to protect departments from liability.
> 
> For the purpose these courses are designed for. Two weeks is ideal. Because nobody actually needs to have usable skills so long as there is protection from liability.
> 
> It is not my fault instructors can't have more time or teach better skills. All I can direct people to do is go to where instructors do have more time and can teach better skills.
> 
> I am not suggesting I could teach cops in two weeks. If someone came to me and asked. I would direct them to a qualified expert in an ongoing system. Because that will give that person the best chance.
> 
> If you can't build a car with breaks. Don't build the car.


You're just ignoring that the 2 weeks actually has some reasonable results. Your argument is wandering and shifting. I think we're done here.


----------



## ballen0351

gpseymour said:


> You're just ignoring that the 2 weeks actually has some reasonable results. Your argument is wandering and shifting. I think we're done here.


If it's not on youtube it doesn't count.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> You're just ignoring that the 2 weeks actually has some reasonable results. Your argument is wandering and shifting. I think we're done here.



Ok. What results? 

Let's compare them to kemosabe results from his training.

Did everyone manage to perform their jobs after his human weapon course?

Is that the effect of the training?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Except the evidence is there.  Multiple Govt. Agencies keep stats on arrest numbers, use of force numbers, line of duty deaths, suspect deaths.  They are long and boring reports sometimes 100s of pages long.  I'm not going to post a 150-page report from the FBI on use of force numbers on this site.  Not, because its a "secret" but because it's already out there for anyone to go look for and read so there is no need and quite frankly its pretty boring.  I could post 1000's of hours of videos from different TV Shows like COPS and LIVE PD where they followed around cops for years and you could watch them and see 1000's of clips of officers using force effectively but why?  What's the point?  What's it prove?
> Point is the information is out there its not my responsibility to find it for you.  We both know you have no real interest in seeing the data since it doesn't fit your narrative.



Ok. I put it to you they would pretty much use force effectively anyway.

You can't just say police are using a method to subdue criminals.

You have to show it is your method.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> If it's not on youtube it doesn't count.



If it is on YouTube it does count though.





Is there any DT going on there?


----------



## jks9199

DT/CT is not a " system. "  The best programs combine principles from one or more martial systems in a framework that it is hoped serves the combined purpose of giving an officer the tools to survive, to detain a subject at any level of resistance without being excessive force, to balance tne likelihood of injury against the likelihood of obtaining effective control, to meet liability standards, and to be taught and retained in the time allotted and in a way that works during an adrenal dump.  Not exactly an easy bill of specifics there, huh?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## jks9199

jks9199 said:


> DT/CT is not a " system. "  The best programs combine principles from one or more martial systems in a framework that it is hoped serves the combined purpose of giving an officer the tools to survive, to detain a subject at any level of resistance without being excessive force, to balance tne likelihood of injury against the likelihood of obtaining effective control, to meet liability standards, and to be taught and retained in the time allotted and in a way that works during an adrenal dump.  Not exactly an easy bill of specifics there, huh?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Oh... and too add to the complexity, I failed to mention that, in most basic academies, "DT" training time ends up including police-specific areas like how to search a building or a person, properly applying handcuffs, using less lethal tools like batons, pepper spray, and Tasers...  and more.


----------



## Buka

That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.
> 
> View attachment 21988


Ugly buncha SOB's. Sounds like good guys.


----------



## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> DT/CT is not a " system. "  The best programs combine principles from one or more martial systems in a framework that it is hoped serves the combined purpose of giving an officer the tools to survive, to detain a subject at any level of resistance without being excessive force, to balance tne likelihood of injury against the likelihood of obtaining effective control, to meet liability standards, and to be taught and retained in the time allotted and in a way that works during an adrenal dump.  Not exactly an easy bill of specifics there, huh?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



And the worst are 70s style Aikido crappling. That combine none of those specifics. And only serve to to protect departments from litigation and serve the ego of the instructors themselves at the cost of officer saftey. 

Terrible.
Dangerous.
And insulting. 

How do you tell the difference?


----------



## Buka

drop bear said:


> If it is on YouTube it does count though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any DT going on there?



Yes, quite a bit, actually.


----------



## Hanzou

Buka said:


> That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.
> 
> View attachment 21988



Show off.


----------



## CB Jones

Buka said:


> That's me with my Sargent, Lieutenant, Section Head and the guy who helped me design our DT program back in the day. And dare I say it... you won't find that on youtube, either.
> 
> View attachment 21988




That guy in the middle should think about training bjj


----------



## PhotonGuy

Hanzou said:


> Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.
> 
> Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ


A cop could learn some of the basics of BJJ but lots of cops I believe work long hours and don't have much time to devote to a martial art. I read an article in a magazine once where an officer said he doesn't have the time to get into a weightlifting program because he works such long hours.


----------



## TMA17

PhotonGuy said:


> A cop could learn some of the basics of BJJ but lots of cops I believe work long hours and don't have much time to devote to a martial art. I read an article in a magazine once where an officer said he doesn't have the time to get into a weightlifting program because he works such long hours.



Yeah time is a big part of all this martial arts banter.  I can barely go 2x a week.


----------



## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> A cop could learn some of the basics of BJJ but lots of cops I believe work long hours and don't have much time to devote to a martial art. I read an article in a magazine once where an officer said he doesn't have the time to get into a weightlifting program because he works such long hours.


Naa it's about priority.  Plenty of officers find time to train in MA several days a week or got to college or run part-time businesses or anything else they choose to prioritize.  I think most officers don't train because they don't want to.


----------



## drop bear




----------



## Buka

drop bear said:


>



Love it!


----------



## TMA17

drop bear said:


>




Saw this today on my instructor's FB page.  Nice.


----------



## TMA17

Where I'm going they offer BJJ and Muay Thai.  They do a self defense JJ class every Thursday.  I went tonight and it was good.  It was Gracie SD fundamentals.

I'm not sure how much BJJ you need to know to subdue your average street thug.  I don't think it would be much.


----------



## Buka

TMA17 said:


> Where I'm going they offer BJJ and Muay Thai.  They do a self defense JJ class every Thursday.  I went tonight and it was good.  It was Gracie SD fundamentals.
> 
> I'm not sure how much BJJ you need to know to subdue your average street thug.  I don't think it would be much.



But then you might not have subdued that many average street thugs. Very few are easy, most are anything but. But that's why we all train.


----------



## TMA17

You are right Buka.


----------



## pdg

A few random thoughts and questions - bearing in mind I've not done a DT course and I'm in a different country.

Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?

A few pages ago there was a statement that there have been 8 officer deaths caused by assault in the last 8 years, so on average one per year - I have to question this figure... Even excluding firearm assaults, figures on wiki suggest that "death by other assault" was closer to 40 last year alone.

I haven't dug into those figures further, but it seems there's a pretty tight selection criteria going on to claim an average of 1.

Even so, surviving an assault isn't really a valid proof of efficacy. How many of the assaults were really carried out with causing death as the primary motivation? Much more likely to me is that "not get arrested" would be the main aim, and causing a death would be an unintended outcome.

I know plenty of people who have survived an assault with zero training, so I have to completely discount that especially if those minimum standards count because good physical condition gives you an immediate advantage.

And then there's what DT is really intended to achieve as well. It's been mentioned that it doesn't just cover defence.

I know that there's a huge bag of monkeys difference between holding someone down, and holding someone down and cuffing them.

So, it must have an effect there. It must teach a few things that are specifically useful in that situation?


Are figures available to show failure to defend that didn't involve death? For instance, an officer sees someone breaking into a car and challenges them. They punch or shove the officer and run away.

That's a failure to detain, and a failure to defend. Effectively, a failure of DT.

Is there anything other than "we all use it" available to show that DT really improves the outcome in that sort of situation?


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?



Sure. But just like the UK, once they're on the force, they can get out of shape.


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?


Depends.  All state-level LEO has recruit requirements and so do most Counties and Cities.  However, there are some small, typically rural, villages and/or townships which have little to no standards.  Some Deputies can be sworn in pretty much on the spot.

That said, most Police Academies have physical requirements.  Beyond that there are not necessarily any standards between standards.  The state of Ohio has slightly different physical and skills standards than, for instance, the city of San Francisco in California.  The firearms skills requirements alone differ vastly from one organization to another.[1]  While pretty much any of those shooting skills standards will ensure basic competency, they do vary wildly.  If every state, city, and county, not to mention the different Federal Agencies, in the U.S. can't agree on one single set of shooting skills standards what makes us think they could agree on one standard for anything else?  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[1] 
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards3.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards4.pdf


----------



## TMA17

Once on the force, it's easy to fall out of shape.  Sitting in a car all day, lack of motivation etc.  It can happen to all of us.  That's a good point.

Maybe a possible solution to some of the deficiencies in DT would be to create a condensed DT system based on MMA.  A good 6 month dose of BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling/Judo etc.  With pressure testing.  Without that pressure testing, you're not gaining much. 

MMA has proven that you need to be well rounded, and that goes for even street fights.

I took a SD BJJ class a few weeks ago and the guy I was up against was heavy and out of shape.  In a pure grappling match, he would kill me.  In a real fight, I'm not so sure.  He weighed 60 lbs more than me but was slow as hell.  When he took me down there were times i could have striked with speed or gotten away because he was out of shape.  Conditioning is definitely part of it.


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. But just like the UK, once they're on the force, they can get out of shape.


that's only partially true, faced with na out of shape police force our government introduced regular fitness tests, but then an equality back lash about age and gender discrimination set the level abismally low, at 5.1 on the bleep test, 

which means they a re capable of chasing down criminals at a gentle amble, what they are capable of doing if they ever catch one is unclear, but it's fair to say the arrest rate for elderly shop lifters on walking frames has improved no end


----------



## drop bear

pdg said:


> A few random thoughts and questions - bearing in mind I've not done a DT course and I'm in a different country.
> 
> Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?
> 
> A few pages ago there was a statement that there have been 8 officer deaths caused by assault in the last 8 years, so on average one per year - I have to question this figure... Even excluding firearm assaults, figures on wiki suggest that "death by other assault" was closer to 40 last year alone.
> 
> I haven't dug into those figures further, but it seems there's a pretty tight selection criteria going on to claim an average of 1.
> 
> Even so, surviving an assault isn't really a valid proof of efficacy. How many of the assaults were really carried out with causing death as the primary motivation? Much more likely to me is that "not get arrested" would be the main aim, and causing a death would be an unintended outcome.
> 
> I know plenty of people who have survived an assault with zero training, so I have to completely discount that especially if those minimum standards count because good physical condition gives you an immediate advantage.
> 
> And then there's what DT is really intended to achieve as well. It's been mentioned that it doesn't just cover defence.
> 
> I know that there's a huge bag of monkeys difference between holding someone down, and holding someone down and cuffing them.
> 
> So, it must have an effect there. It must teach a few things that are specifically useful in that situation?
> 
> 
> Are figures available to show failure to defend that didn't involve death? For instance, an officer sees someone breaking into a car and challenges them. They punch or shove the officer and run away.
> 
> That's a failure to detain, and a failure to defend. Effectively, a failure of DT.
> 
> Is there anything other than "we all use it" available to show that DT really improves the outcome in that sort of situation?



You would look at the figures before DT training and after. And see if they had any effect at all on officer injuries or death or officer arrest success rate.


----------



## Buka

Police departments are similar to Martial Arts schools. They're all different.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Police departments are similar to Martial Arts schools. They're all different.



Not according to the evidence. They all arrest people and mostly don't die.


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> Depends.  All state-level LEO has recruit requirements and so do most Counties and Cities.  However, there are some small, typically rural, villages and/or townships which have little to no standards.  Some Deputies can be sworn in pretty much on the spot.
> 
> That said, most Police Academies have physical requirements.  Beyond that there are not necessarily any standards between standards.  The state of Ohio has slightly different physical and skills standards than, for instance, the city of San Francisco in California.  The firearms skills requirements alone differ vastly from one organization to another.[1]  While pretty much any of those shooting skills standards will ensure basic competency, they do vary wildly.  If every state, city, and county, not to mention the different Federal Agencies, in the U.S. can't agree on one single set of shooting skills standards what makes us think they could agree on one standard for anything else?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk
> 
> [1]
> http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf
> http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf
> http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards3.pdf
> http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards4.pdf





Buka said:


> Police departments are similar to Martial Arts schools. They're all different.



I'm not taking much notice of the firearms requirements differences, because I don't think it's particularly relevant to the "BJJ cop" subject.

Well, apart from showing differences exist...

But I'd expect differences to exist tbh, an inner city beat cop is going to have a different day compared to a cop in the sticks making rounds of farms.

So, a country deputy isn't going to need the same tools - but (and I may have this utterly wrong) doesn't an academy graduate pretty much go where they're sent?

The academy is therefore going to have to cover far more bases.


----------



## pdg

drop bear said:


> You would look at the figures before DT training and after. And see if they had any effect at all on officer injuries or death or officer arrest success rate.



And are those particular figures published?

Are stats available to show how many arrest attempts are successful v how many fail, and if so, do they state why?

It would need to be shown that any failure could be directly attributable to training or lack thereof, and I would still have little faith in the figures...

Are officer survival rates anything at all to go by? An average of one death per year was stated earlier, I questioned that with the wiki suggestion of it being more like 40.

Even if it was 100 per year, as a percentage of active officers that's an extremely low number - even going from 150 pre DT to 50 post DT would be meaningless because they're different people against different people in different situations. If it went from 1,000 to 10 then that would show something.

Whether that something it showed could be useful to determine future training is another matter though.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Because it's not "BJJ vs. DT" you're really talking about. It's "2-weeks vs ongoing". And then you have the gall to blame the instructors and call their integrity into question, when they do NOT get to make that call.
> 
> Nobody here has said 2 weeks was ideal. You've been arguing as if they've said that. Which is complete crap.


I know a lot of cops who train BJJ and some BJJ instructors who train cops in dt.  I haven’t read the entire thread, so excuse me if I am making points that have already been made, but We are talking about professionals here.  I’m sure some cops do the bare minimum to get by, but I’d like to think most do not limit their development to two weeks per year.   It seems pretty clear that the minimum is checking a box and little more.


----------



## drop bear

pdg said:


> And are those particular figures published?
> 
> Are stats available to show how many arrest attempts are successful v how many fail, and if so, do they state why?
> 
> It would need to be shown that any failure could be directly attributable to training or lack thereof, and I would still have little faith in the figures...
> 
> Are officer survival rates anything at all to go by? An average of one death per year was stated earlier, I questioned that with the wiki suggestion of it being more like 40.
> 
> Even if it was 100 per year, as a percentage of active officers that's an extremely low number - even going from 150 pre DT to 50 post DT would be meaningless because they're different people against different people in different situations. If it went from 1,000 to 10 then that would show something.
> 
> Whether that something it showed could be useful to determine future training is another matter though.



Not in any relevant way. I looked up officer deaths. And not surprisingly back in the 1920s there was bugger all. Spiked in the 70s then stayed pretty constant.

All just inconclusive. 

Bouncers in comparison have little or no industry training and arrest people and don't generally die as well.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> I know a lot of cops who train BJJ and some BJJ instructors who train cops in dt.  I haven’t read the entire thread, so excuse me if I am making points that have already been made, but We are talking about professionals here.  I’m sure some cops do the bare minimum to get by, but I’d like to think most do not limit their development to two weeks per year.   It seems pretty clear that the minimum is checking a box and little more.



There are a lot of factors that win fights that have very little to do with trained ability.

The training is a bit of a red herring in that way. 

The other thing that has guys sook big time is my suggestion that cops fighting people on their own is setting up to fail. 

But two cops cost more money than one.


----------



## CB Jones

TMA17 said:


> Maybe a possible solution to some of the deficiencies in DT would be to create a condensed DT system based on MMA. A good 6 month dose of BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling/Judo etc. With pressure testing. Without that pressure testing, you're not gaining much.



Thats what DT is....a condensed system of techniques from different arts altered to allow handcuffing.

Its a very condensed basic system....most departments don't have the budget for a 6 month DT training program for all their officers.


----------



## drop bear

pdg said:


> I'm not taking much notice of the firearms requirements differences, because I don't think it's particularly relevant to the "BJJ cop" subject.
> 
> Well, apart from showing differences exist...
> 
> But I'd expect differences to exist tbh, an inner city beat cop is going to have a different day compared to a cop in the sticks making rounds of farms.
> 
> So, a country deputy isn't going to need the same tools - but (and I may have this utterly wrong) doesn't an academy graduate pretty much go where they're sent?
> 
> The academy is therefore going to have to cover far more bases.



Every country every region has basically the same dynamics when it comes to these sorts of fights.

This is an arrest in the UK.





But it could quite simply been anywhere in the world.

The idea that there is some sort of specialist dynamic that occurs within a specific region or within a specific industry has no evidence.

Izreal. Military dealing with a protest.





Different country different organizations. Same dynamics.

Let's go to Russia.





And the same dynamics. Different language different culture. But same thing.

The could have been reading from a script.

Mabye security has a different dynamic?

Let's look at loss prevention.


----------



## Steve

Most gyms offer discounts to LEO and active duty military.  While the department might not have the funding, 2 or 3 nights a week might not be a bad idea... at least for a year or two to get the basics.


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> Most gyms offer discounts to LEO and active duty military.  While the department might not have the funding, 2 or 3 nights a week might not be a bad idea... at least for a year or two to get the basics.



It's tough.  I've been wanting for me and my son to join a school but between his karate, baseball, and basketball plus the hours I have to work....we havent figured out how to make it work.  The nearest BJJ school is 52 miles away so that doesnt help either.


----------



## Steve

CB Jones said:


> It's tough.  I've been wanting for me and my son to join a school but between his karate, baseball, and basketball plus the hours I have to work....we havent figured out how to make it work.  The nearest BJJ school is 52 miles away so that doesnt help either.


That’s a little far.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I know a lot of cops who train BJJ and some BJJ instructors who train cops in dt.  I haven’t read the entire thread, so excuse me if I am making points that have already been made, but We are talking about professionals here.  I’m sure some cops do the bare minimum to get by, but I’d like to think most do not limit their development to two weeks per year.   It seems pretty clear that the minimum is checking a box and little more.


You'd hope so, but it's not my experience. I've trained with a lot of cops, and most of them were the only guys in their squad (or other relevant group) seeking ongoing training. Just as there are many cops who don't go to the effort to train with their firearms on an ongoing basis.

I don't know what the proportions are for either of those - my sampling is neither random nor likely representative.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Most gyms offer discounts to LEO and active duty military.  While the department might not have the funding, 2 or 3 nights a week might not be a bad idea... at least for a year or two to get the basics.


I've been considering that, myself. If I had my solo program again, I think I'd let LEO train free. I'll have to talk to the owner of the school I'm joining to see what she does.


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> I'm not taking much notice of the firearms requirements differences, because I don't think it's particularly relevant to the "BJJ cop" subject.


You asked if there were national "minimum standards" for things like "fitness" and "conditioning."  No.  As an example I pointed out that there aren't even agreed on standards for something as narrowly framed as how accurate you have to be with a pistol at a given range.

There are no national minimal acceptable standards agreed on for any cop-ly skill or attribute, not even the color of the uniform.  Every different organization is free to set their own standards.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> You asked if there were national "minimum standards" for things like "fitness" and "conditioning."  No.  As an example I pointed out that there aren't even agreed on standards for something as narrowly framed as how accurate you have to be with a pistol at a given range.
> 
> There are no national minimal acceptable standards agreed on for any cop-ly skill or attribute, not even the color of the uniform.  Every different organization is free to set their own standards.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I didn't use the word 'national'...


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> I didn't use the word 'national'...


<sigh>  Fine.  Yes, there are "standards."  Every organization has different "standards."  Just like me.  I have standards.  They're not the same as anyone else' though.  So if no one has the same "standards" are there any "standards?"


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> <sigh>  Fine.  Yes, there are "standards."  Every organization has different "standards."  Just like me.  I have standards.  They're not the same as anyone else' though.  So if no one has the same "standards" are there any "standards?"



Sure there can.

You can have personal standards, school standards, state/county standards - and so on.

Having a set of standards suggests you've put at least a little consideration into what you consider the minimum level of acceptability.

What this was kind of leading to is that a person of at least close to average fitness (or above) stands a decent chance against any other average kind of person.

Add in a bit of training in restraint, the authority of the uniform (which does actually exist) and a few other tools and that "bit below average" person is well above average.

Then also consider that "street fighting" is pretty much the last thing a police officer should really be engaging in.

Take all that, add in the "survival rate" (whichever one you choose, the percentage is close enough that it doesn't matter) and you get to my opinion on the initial subject of the thread...


No.

Police should not be compelled to train in any specific fighting art, whether BJJ or not. What they do (in combination with everything else) actually works well enough in the very vast majority of cases.


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> Sure there can.
> 
> You can have personal standards, school standards, state/county standards - and so on.
> 
> Having a set of standards suggests you've put at least a little consideration into what you consider the minimum level of acceptability.
> 
> What this was kind of leading to is that a person of at least close to average fitness (or above) stands a decent chance against any other average kind of person.
> 
> Add in a bit of training in restraint, the authority of the uniform (which does actually exist) and a few other tools and that "bit below average" person is well above average.
> 
> Then also consider that "street fighting" is pretty much the last thing a police officer should really be engaging in.
> 
> Take all that, add in the "survival rate" (whichever one you choose, the percentage is close enough that it doesn't matter) and you get to my opinion on the initial subject of the thread...
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> Police should not be compelled to train in any specific fighting art, whether BJJ or not. What they do (in combination with everything else) actually works well enough in the very vast majority of cases.


What does that have to do with your question "Firstly, I'm assuming there are minimum standards required to become a police officer relating to things like fitness and other physical condition - is that assumption valid?" particularly in relation to the prefacing modifying statement "bearing in mind I've not done a DT course and I'm in a different country."???


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> What does that have to do with your question



Lots.

Or not much.

That's up to the person reading the question to decide whether there's any relevance and if so, how much.


Surely you don't expect consistent logic? Especially when I also added that some of it was random thoughts...


----------



## lklawson

pdg said:


> Lots.
> 
> Or not much.
> 
> That's up to the person reading the question to decide whether there's any relevance and if so, how much.
> 
> 
> Surely you don't expect consistent logic? Especially when I also added that some of it was random thoughts...


Forgive me, but I'm a little confused then as to what you're asking or where you're going.  I thought that I'd answered that everyone has a bunch of different "standards" applicable only to them (sort of like dating; do you prefer "skanky" or "chaste?").


----------



## pdg

lklawson said:


> Forgive me, but I'm a little confused then as to what you're asking or where you're going.  I thought that I'd answered that everyone has a bunch of different "standards" applicable only to them (sort of like dating; do you prefer "skanky" or "chaste?").



I arrived where I was going in my previous post.


----------



## Buka

This is the most amusing thread I've read in a long while. With the time difference here it goes smashingly well with coffee.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> This is the most amusing thread I've read in a long while. With the time difference here it goes smashingly well with coffee.



Yeah because It works along a lot of the stereotypes of martial arts and self defense dogma. 

From secret systems to two week results to trained by professionals to only the initiated would understand. 

But it is also very precious to some people so we get some heavy investment in defending it. 

If this was modern barbarian or even Krav in Israel nobody would let it fly. If someone claimed only women can understand womens self defense they would be scoffed at. 

But it is this weird nook where logic doesnt apply and only authority matters.

Strangely I have found this shift even from generally sensible guys when it comes to self defence. 

It is a really strange dynamic.


----------



## Buka

The only things I think matter are what rules one is governed by, and experience in what is being discussed.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> The only things I think matter are what rules one is governed by, and experience in what is being discussed.



Well yeah everyone thinks that. That is the logical falacy of anecdotal evidence.


----------



## drop bear

It happens everywhere.





So here is an example of how people with no experience on how to be women are not able to work a technique that obviously works on the street.

And why only women should speak about womens self defense.


----------



## Buka

drop bear said:


> Well yeah everyone thinks that. That is the logical falacy of anecdotal evidence.



Seems to be right in your wheelhouse. Learning a bit in ten minutes.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Seems to be right in your wheelhouse. Learning a bit in ten minutes.



It is like anything. We all have these preconceptions that is why we produce evidence.

I went for years thinking high kick would just get caught until I saw through repeated experiments that it wasn't really the case.

I also spent years trying to drop bad guys with DT until I realized that it mostly doesn't work and then reviewed what does work. And how to tell the difference.

So that should I have an actual technical discussion on the subject I don't have to rely on hiding. Or vague concepts of specific requirements.

I can say what I do. Why I do it and the risks and the rewards of the techniques and tactics. Because that is knowledge of the subject.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hanzou said:


> Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.
> 
> Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ



BJJ is a sport art.  As such, it is terrible for law enforcement (same with any sport art).  I've detailed, in depth, why many times here.  Royce Gracie use to teach at our regional training center (I know him, very nice guy).  At first it was very popular and the flavor-of-the-month.  When folks got over the newness (this was back in the 90's and early 00's) they started realizing that it not only was useless training but detrimental training.  Royce had to extensively modify BJJ to make it usable in the 'street'.  Eventually no one took the class as other more effective training was available (Tony Blauers' SPEAR, Ken Good's PCR, Boatman's Edged Weapon defense etc).  

Now I know the BJJ guys will disagree.  That's fine.  But 99% of them have never been in law enforcement.  Things are different in the street (or in a jail or prison) than on a mat.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kong Soo Do said:


> BJJ is a sport art.  As such, it is terrible for law enforcement (same with any sport art).  I've detailed, in depth, why many times here.  Royce Gracie use to teach at our regional training center (I know him, very nice guy).  At first it was very popular and the flavor-of-the-month.  When folks got over the newness (this was back in the 90's and early 00's) they started realizing that it not only was useless training but detrimental training.  Royce had to extensively modify BJJ to make it usable in the 'street'.  Eventually no one took the class as other more effective training was available (Tony Blauers' SPEAR, Ken Good's PCR, Boatman's Edged Weapon defense etc).
> 
> Now I know the BJJ guys will disagree.  That's fine.  But 99% of them have never been in law enforcement.  Things are different in the street (or in a jail or prison) than on a mat.



Are you just here to talk trash about "sport arts"? Because you seem to be on a roll today of just saying things won't be useful in defense that people have actually used in defense. Just sayin'.

Gaps in a system aren't the same thing as it being "useless".


----------



## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> BJJ is a sport art.  As such, it is terrible for law enforcement (same with any sport art).  I've detailed, in depth, why many times here.  Royce Gracie use to teach at our regional training center (I know him, very nice guy).  At first it was very popular and the flavor-of-the-month.  When folks got over the newness (this was back in the 90's and early 00's) they started realizing that it not only was useless training but detrimental training.  Royce had to extensively modify BJJ to make it usable in the 'street'.  Eventually no one took the class as other more effective training was available (Tony Blauers' SPEAR, Ken Good's PCR, Boatman's Edged Weapon defense etc).
> 
> Now I know the BJJ guys will disagree.  That's fine.  But 99% of them have never been in law enforcement.  Things are different in the street (or in a jail or prison) than on a mat.


I know, have trained with, and am friends with a good number of cops, former cops, and correctional officers who include BJJ (and/or Judo) in their training.  They're all pretty happy with it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> I know, have trained with, and am friends with a good number of cops, former cops, and correctional officers who include BJJ (and/or Judo) in their training.  They're all pretty happy with it.


Same here.


----------



## Robert Agar-Hutton

The problem with a thread about usefulness of (insert whatever martial art you like) for Police use (and of course it could be military use or self defence use or ...) is that it is not a simple yes or no question - it is going to depend on many factors and what is workable for one person will not be workable for another - and in many places (correct me if I am wrong) the defensive tactics taught to officers is regulated by the organisation they work for. Finally, for most of the police officers I have known in the UK their available time for practice (and let's not even discuss the little amount of time given to training) is quite restricted - which is why CS Spray / Tasers / Batons / etc are often pretty much their first line of defence when tactical communications fails or is inappropriate.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

gpseymour said:


> Are you just here to talk trash about "sport arts"? Because you seem to be on a roll today of just saying things won't be useful in defense that people have actually used in defense. Just sayin'.
> 
> Gaps in a system aren't the same thing as it being "useless".



Last I checked, this forum was about sharing opinions and experience.  And I have done so here and in the Judo thread.  In neither instance was it 'trash-talking' as I detailed why I am of the opinion that I stated.  And I stand by it and will be happy to offer debate.  



lklawson said:


> I know, have trained with, and am friends with a good number of cops, former cops, and correctional officers who include BJJ (and/or Judo) in their training.  They're all pretty happy with it.



Then I would state that your friends in L.E. have either never actually used in during a use-of-force, got very lucky if they did or modified the training to make it work.  Which is what Royce had to do.  And since he's pretty familiar with BJJ, and since he DID have to modify it for L.E. I would consider that as having more weight.  

Our training unit also offers BJJ for some elements of ground defense, but it has been heavily modified.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then I would state that your friends in L.E. have either never actually used in during a use-of-force, got very lucky if they did or modified the training to make it work. Which is what Royce had to do. And since he's pretty familiar with BJJ, and since he DID have to modify it for L.E. I would consider that as having more weight.


Sure, you have to "modify" it for law enforcement. You _always_ have to modify it for the context at hand. 

Using BJJ in an IBJJF tournament is different from using it in an MMA match is different from using it in an ADCC tournament is different from using it in a consensual street fight is different from using it for self defense against a would-be rapist is different from using it as a LEO restraining a suspect. The underlying body mechanics are the same, but if you don't understand the context you are applying them in, you stand a good chance of getting yourself in trouble.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sure, you have to "modify" it for law enforcement. You _always_ have to modify it for the context at hand.
> 
> Using BJJ in an IBJJF tournament is different from using it in an MMA match is different from using it in an ADCC tournament is different from using it in a consensual street fight is different from using it for self defense against a would-be rapist is different from using it as a LEO restraining a suspect. The underlying body mechanics are the same, but if you don't understand the context you are applying them in, you stand a good chance of getting yourself in trouble.



I agree, with one caveat.  Some of the more 'known' techniques in BJJ i.e. the bread-n-butter techniques such as rear-naked choke, guilotine, triangle arm bar etc is ill advised for a L.E. setting because it is NEVER a good idea to tie up your arms or stay on the ground, particularly if a weapon is present (which it WILL be...yours) and/or the merest possibility of multiple perps.  As such, many of the strategies of BJJ (sport) are detrimental to the L.E. arena as it tends to teach the student to try to get into these positions i.e. go for the submission.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kong Soo Do said:


> Last I checked, this forum was about sharing opinions and experience.  And I have done so here and in the Judo thread.  In neither instance was it 'trash-talking' as I detailed why I am of the opinion that I stated.  And I stand by it and will be happy to offer debate.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would state that your friends in L.E. have either never actually used in during a use-of-force, got very lucky if they did or modified the training to make it work.  Which is what Royce had to do.  And since he's pretty familiar with BJJ, and since he DID have to modify it for L.E. I would consider that as having more weight.
> 
> Our training unit also offers BJJ for some elements of ground defense, but it has been heavily modified.


So, others' experience doesn't count - they just "got very lucky"?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

If that's how you'd like to receive what I said, yes.  They either haven't really used it, got lucky or it was modified.  Pick whichever of the three that applies to the specific individual.


----------



## Buka

I remember this thread! 

I'm going to have to go back and reread the whole thing. I think I'll save it for tonight.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Are you just here to talk trash about "sport arts"? Because you seem to be on a roll today of just saying things won't be useful in defense that people have actually used in defense. Just sayin'.
> 
> Gaps in a system aren't the same thing as it being "useless".



Industry trainer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Industry trainer.


This does sound like some of the most egregious marketing hype.


----------



## jks9199

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then I would state that your friends in L.E. have either never actually used in during a use-of-force, got very lucky if they did or modified the training to make it work.  Which is what Royce had to do.  And since he's pretty familiar with BJJ, and since he DID have to modify it for L.E. I would consider that as having more weight.



You keep throwing out "if it worked, they had to modify it" as if that disproves the usefulness of something.   

Most, if not all, martial arts have to be modified in application from training.  It's pretty damn rare for someone to set down in front you, assume a stance, and deliver a textbook reverse punch -- even in the sparring ring, let alone the street.  Or to set up a roll rather than be grabbed...  We don't even shoot in the real world like we do on the firing line...  because the training hall, whether it's a formal dojo, a gym, a park, whatever, is a laboratory, with inherent flaws to make it safe to practice.  It's not the real world -- if it was, and the stuff we're doing, whether DT/CT or martial arts, is half as effective as we claim it is, and we did it, we'd be sending our training partners to the ER on a regular basis.  Just about everything we do in law enforcement gets adapted, changed, modified, or tweaked for the application of the moment...  whether that's notetaking, conducting a traffic stop, interviewing a subject, putting cuffs on someone...  it all gets adjusted for the real world.

So, of course, when it comes to actually using something, there's adjustment, adaptation, and modification.  That said -- there are plenty of pretty damn skilled cops out there using Judo in one fashion or another on the street.  (Look up Steve Jimerfield, for instances...)  There are others using BJJ.  Or various styles of karate, hwrang do, hap ki do...  you name it.


----------



## Buka

I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.


Man, I haven't seen that movie in ages...


----------



## dvcochran

Kong Soo Do said:


> If that's how you'd like to receive what I said, yes.  They either haven't really used it, got lucky or it was modified.  Pick whichever of the three that applies to the specific individual.


You keep mentioning your long list of "real world" and LEO experiences where you used your MA. Can you list and describe these encounters to help us understand where you are coming from?


----------



## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Then I would state that your friends in L.E. have either never actually used in during a use-of-force, got very lucky if they did or modified the training to make it work.


And I would say you don't know what the hell you're talking about, have an agenda to drive, or are protecting your ego by defending a thesis proven to be false.

So, you know, whatever dude.


----------



## geezer

Buka said:


> I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.



"Medication time Mr. Cheswick...."


----------



## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> And I would say you don't know what the hell you're talking about, have an agenda to drive, or are protecting your ego by defending a thesis proven to be false.
> 
> So, you know, whatever dude.



Some more of this 'Friendly Martial Arts Discussion' I see.  And from a MT 'Advisor'.  Well done.  So now I have a mod, and admin and an advisor piling on because I dared to challenge a particular cherished dogma.  

Let's see, what was the original question of this thread?

*"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?*

I disagreed, and I clearly stated why I disagree.  And unless the rules of this forum have changed since I've been away, I don't have to agree and I'm free to express why I don't agree.  So Iklawson, I do have an agenda.  It's to state my beliefs based upon my experience.  And the 'thesis' hasn't proven to be false.  I'm in the field, most of you are not.  So, you know, whatever dude to you as well.



dvcochran said:


> You keep mentioning your long list of "real world" and LEO experiences where you used your MA. Can you list and describe these encounters to help us understand where you are coming from?



I began training in the martial arts in 1975.  I entered the military in 1985 and began teaching MA overseas in 1986.  In 1990 I became a Deputy.  Through all  of that I've been on specific teams and in special ops as well as HL assignments in L.E. I have been an instructor since 1996 in Police firearms and Defensive Tactics, Israeli Urban Survival and Defensive Tactics, Israeli Instinctive Shooting, SPEAR, PCR, and edged weapon defense.  Over the course of the last two + decades I've taught more than a thousand police, corrections, EP agents,security and private citizens in the MA, DT, firearms and CCW licensing.  Personally, I stopped counting uses-of-force on-duty over a decade ago but it was approaching a thousand then.  I've been in deadly force incidents multiple times on both ends of a firearm and I've faced individuals (violent felons) in edged weapon altercations.  

I'd be happy to detail why I hold the opinions that I hold on sport training methodology vs. self-defense training methodology, particularly for high liability professionals.  And I have had one of my articles published in a TKD publication to that effect.

I'm on my way to a meeting in a bit, but will give a simple example to start off with.  In the Judo thread I stated that sport Judo is not a go training system for L.E. and that it has to be modified to be useful.  Same with BJJ or MMA or TKD or anything.  Some folks choose to lose their minds rather than engage in a more in-depth analysis on the subject.  Let's take a simple 'hip toss' as taught in Judo or a number of other sport arts.  Does a hip toss work?  Sure.  Does it work for every application?  No!  For example, it is one thing to be on soft mats, in a martial arts uniform (such as a heavy Judo Gi for example, which is heavy for a reason i.e. it is used to grab) and hip toss an opponent.  It is entirely another story to be a police officer on the street wearing body armor and a batman belt with sidearm, intermediate weapons (taser, baton, O.C. etc) as well as cuffs, 911 tool, MTM mask, flashlight and a myriad of other things the agency may require.  Now you're trying to hip toss a violent, resisting attacker/individual not wearing a heavy gi, that doesn't want to be thrown, that may or may not be armed and may or may not be an EDP and/or high on drugs (which can give super human strength and pain resistance).  So to hip toss that sort of idiot I have to put my hip into it of course.  Which hip?  The one with my gun?  The one with my taser?  Or baton or OC?  No thank you.  I'm not going to purposely push a weapon towards an individual like that unless I had no other choice.  And even then it is still different that the hip itself.  Can if be done?  Perhaps.  Is it the best thing to do?  Not even close.  Try hip tossing someone that is high and pissed off wearing all of that stuff.  By the way, bad guys in prison train to defeat that sort of stuff, and yes, we have video of them training for that sort of thing.  Even the simple stuff like patting them down while they are leaning against a wall (just like Hollywood portrays).  They train do defeat things like this.  

So in short (to late) a traditional Judo hip toss, as taught in a sport dojo is an extremely bad choice to attempt in the environment I am talking about.  There are better, real world options available to consider rather than this example.  Later, if anyone is interested, I can discuss other 'sport' go-to/gee-whiz moves that everyone loves (cross body arm bar, triangle arm bar guilotine, rear naked choke) that are detrimental for HL professionals to use.  At least with heavy modification.  That's why I gave the example of Gracie having to heavily modify BJJ for use in L.E. in our regional training center and why it eventually fell away in favor of systems like SPEAR, PCR, Jujutsu 101 etc.


----------



## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Some more of this 'Friendly Martial Arts Discussion' I see.


This *IS* friendly.  Keep up your current foolishness and you may see a decline.



> And from a MT 'Advisor'.  Well done.


You're welcome.



> So now I have a mod, and admin and an advisor piling on because I dared to challenge a particular cherished dogma.


No.  It's because you stubbornly refuse to admit that the thesis you are promoting has been thoroughly debunked and disproven.  You are acting like the martial arts equivalent of a Flat Earther so don't act all surprised when you are treated like a Flat Earther.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> This *IS* friendly. Keep up your current foolishness and you may see a decline.



No, it hasn't been friendly at all.  Certainly not like it use to be.  And it is you that are acting foolishly and letting your emotions guide your key strokes.  But sure, I'd like to see you decline.  Continue with your hostility, I'll continue to discuss the topic with anyone that may be interested in actually discussing the topic.  



lklawson said:


> No. It's because you stubbornly refuse to admit that the thesis you are promoting has been thoroughly debunked and disproven.



They have not been disproven at all.  I stand by my opinion and experiences.  The fact you don't agree doesn't make me wrong.  In fact, just the opposite.  I'm not one of the folks here that 'has a friend that's a cop'.  I'm in the field and I am providing factual information (such as O'Neill's statements and Gracies training changing).  That fact that it goes against your pre-conceived bias is your issue, not mine.  

I will continue to address the topic of this thread with my viewpoint, experience and professional opinion.  If that's not to your liking, too bad.  I believe there is an 'ignore' function on the board.  Use it.


----------



## Buka

Man, there's just something about this thread. I'm stumped as to why it causes so much turmoil. But since I'm in Law Enforcement, and since I've done some BJJ, and since I was a cop before I had ever done any BJJ, and since I teach certain aspects of BJJ in Defensive Tactics for twenty something years, and since I've worked in departments that both use and don't use aspects of BJJ in DT, I get to have a say that comes from some experience. Harrumph harrumph. So...

I think every cop should learn patience. And I think a quote that says it best is this.
_
Patience is not simply the ability to wait - it's how we behave while we're waiting._ Joyce Meyer

In other words.....chill out guys.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> I just reread this whole thread. I felt like I was in the film One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest.



It will get more surreal. Because we will have a complete role reversal now. 

Where before the argument that "I am a cop. I train cops they don't die so my training is proven." Was taken as cannon. 

And
"You are not a cop and therefore don't understand the specific circumstances of the discussion so your logic is invalid" can be used be used indiscriminately. 

Now the same people are going to have issue with that concept. As someone uses that logic to quite simply support anything he wants.


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Man, there's just something about this thread. I'm stumped as to why it causes so much turmoil. But since I'm in Law Enforcement, and since I've done some BJJ, and since I was a cop before I had ever done any BJJ, and since I teach certain aspects of BJJ in Defensive Tactics for twenty something years, and since I've worked in departments that both use and don't use aspects of BJJ in DT, I get to have a say that comes from some experience. Harrumph harrumph. So...
> 
> I think every cop should learn patience. And I think a quote that says it best is this.
> _
> Patience is not simply the ability to wait - it's how we behave while we're waiting._ Joyce Meyer
> 
> In other words.....chill out guys.



And I mentioned this in this thread a lot. 

If your system works. There has to be something that separates your system from other systems that don't work. 

Being a cop and bashing fools doesn't separate your method from anyone else. 

And coming from years of bouncing. I know guys who have bashed heaps of guys on the job who have engaged in no more defensive training than smashing too many Bundys getting drunk and breaking a few skulls on a Saturday night. 

And that means there is nothing that separates that method of self defense training from anyone else's. 

So it comes down to. (And I mentioned this as well)

Accountability for your training methodology. Of which I have never experienced within an industry training program. 

And the reason this raises so much ire is that it is my skull on the line if the training doesn't work.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> . So to hip toss that sort of idiot I have to put my hip into it of course. Which hip? The one with my gun? The one with my taser? Or baton or OC? No thank you. I'm not going to purposely push a weapon towards an individual like that unless I had no other choice.



The thing is you are basing your conclusions on a few misconceptions that change the technical nature of the discussion. 

So for example unless you are concerned a hip toss will hurt the guy you are throwing to greatly. Then mats don't factor in. 

Because I am not landing on them. At worst I am landing on you. And you will be my mat in that instance. 

Otherwise you are not really addressing the retention issue as well as you could be. To start with. The best way to loose a weapon in a fight is to loose that fight. That is going to be the greatest risk of loosing stuff of your belt kit. 

So your alternatives can't be dumb. (And we will get in to the SPEAR system in a bit)

But you can also mitigate the risk of giving access to belt kit. And we can test the availability of that access through scientific method. 

In simple terms can you actually pull a gun out of a holster mid way through a Judo  throw? Or is this a risk that is unlikely though testing? 

Can you mitigate that risk by underhooking the arm that is near the gun?

Or is the risk presented by by that throw reducing a greater risk. Say he has double underhooks or a sleeper hold?


----------



## drop bear

So for example say you do want to judo throws as a cop.

What you don't do is go to a guy like Tony Blauer and take his advice on a subject he doesn't understand (fighting) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What you would do is go to a guy like Dan Kelly who does understand judo throws and fighting and see how he sets up throws.






Oh look at that. Just clinch the arm, hip goes to the far side.  Problem solved with a small fix.


----------



## drop bear

Rather than.





And by the way. The forward drive is done with your legs.


----------



## TMA17

drop bear said:


> So for example say you do want to judo throws as a cop.
> 
> What you don't do is go to a guy like Tony Blauer and take his advice on a subject he doesn't understand (fighting) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> What you would do is go to a guy like Dan Kelly who does understand judo throws and fighting and see how he sets up throws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look at that. Just clinch the arm, hip goes to the far side.  Problem solved with a small fix.




That was nice.


----------



## CB Jones

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion and in the end that's all it is just an opinion.

When I transferred into plain clothes my 1st sgt. Gave me this advice that I have always try to remind myself of....

"Over your career you will get a lot of advice on tactics and methods....many instructors will tell you that the tactic or methods are the best....but in the end it's just another tool....sometimes that took works for the job and sometimes it doesnt.....the smart thing to do is collect as many tools as you can so that you have the tool you need for that situation."


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Well everyone is entitled to their opinion and in the end that's all it is just an opinion.
> 
> When I transferred into plain clothes my 1st sgt. Gave me this advice that I have always try to remind myself of....
> 
> "Over your career you will get a lot of advice on tactics and methods....many instructors will tell you that the tactic or methods are the best....but in the end it's just another tool....sometimes that took works for the job and sometimes it doesnt.....the smart thing to do is collect as many tools as you can so that you have the tool you need for that situation."



Exactly. It is not like evidence would ever outweigh anecdotes when trying to separate fact from fiction. 

It is just everyone opinion all with equal merit.


----------



## drop bear

TMA17 said:


> That was nice.



He is straight up the bom digity when it comes to practical application of judo. 

The irony is, not even Dan Kelly, but the kid who was partnered up with him would eat Tony Blauer alive.

And if you could get to Melbourne you could probably train with that guy for virtually nothing.


----------



## dvcochran

I did find the "1000's of high risk encounters" comical.


----------



## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> I did find the "1000's of high risk encounters" comical.



If it's not on. It's not on.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> So for example say you do want to judo throws as a cop.
> 
> What you don't do is go to a guy like Tony Blauer and take his advice on a subject he doesn't understand (fighting) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> What you would do is go to a guy like Dan Kelly who does understand judo throws and fighting and see how he sets up throws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh look at that. Just clinch the arm, hip goes to the far side.  Problem solved with a small fix.


While it was nicely done, it was pretty much just a stock Koshi Guruma.  Nothing special about it.  And it shows up in almost every martial art that includes throwing, including old school boxing.








Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> No, it hasn't been friendly at all.  Certainly not like it use to be.  And it is you that are acting foolishly and letting your emotions guide your key strokes.  But sure, I'd like to see you decline.  Continue with your hostility, I'll continue to discuss the topic with anyone that may be interested in actually discussing the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> They have not been disproven at all.  I stand by my opinion and experiences.  The fact you don't agree doesn't make me wrong.  In fact, just the opposite.


The fact that I disagree with you makes you right?  Whatever.


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Actually, i just remembered something.   The shiv works person has a few BJJ moves in it.     At least he cited them as the BJJ name if they exist elsewhere.  and not having done a class at there nor done any BJJ i cant comment on what i see people doing on the few snippet videos you can get.    


Probably completely irreverent but it just crossed my mind and if there is any use in that information someone can use it.


----------



## drop bear

Rat said:


> Actually, i just remembered something.   The shiv works person has a few BJJ moves in it.     At least he cited them as the BJJ name if they exist elsewhere.  and not having done a class at there nor done any BJJ i cant comment on what i see people doing on the few snippet videos you can get.
> 
> 
> Probably completely irreverent but it just crossed my mind and if there is any use in that information someone can use it.



No they use the game changing sole of the foot. Because in the street you are wearing shoes.






Where in MMA they use the bottom part of the foot because it is sport and they have bare feet.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> No they use the game changing sole of the foot. Because in the street you are wearing shoes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where in MMA they use the bottom part of the foot because it is sport and they have bare feet.


See? The street is entirely different. You get it.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> See? The street is entirely different. You get it.



Absolutely. I got beaten up once in a street fight because the other guy hit me while I was getting my hand wraps done and choosing my walk out music.

There is just no parallel between them.

This was the song by the way.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki

CB Jones said:


> Would be better off learning boxing and training regularly on Defensive Tactics that have restraint, escorting, handcuffing, and weapon retention in mind.



Whoa, guy, are you suggesting that regular practice trumps the differences between disciplines?

The US Air Force Security Forces (Air Force military police) teaches a combatives curriculum that is virtually all BJJ. I take issue with it. That's not to say I take issue with BJJ... it has saved my life, so I have a special place for it in my heart. But, when you consider that many defenders (USAF security forces) will take two weeks of combatives in the academy, do a refresher once or twice yearly, and that's IT, I believe BJJ is way too complicated to be the basis of the system. Now, we can argue that they should train more REGARDLESS of the system (I've said it many times), but, the fact is that someone can become decently proficient in throwing punches, blocks, and low kicks with two weeks of defensive training. That's not to say they will be able to throw a punch with the brutal efficiency of a 3rd dan in Shotokan, but they can probably stand their own against a drunk or an irate cyber nerd, which is generally what an USAF cop needs to be able to do. BJJ is more nuanced, and I'd argue you need considerably more time to develop even a semblance of proficiency. Moreover, BJJ trains in conditions that are vastly different from the real world. True, all martial arts do, but the fact that I'm wearing a plate carrier with level II or III plates, a baton, a Beretta 92, possibly an M4 assault rifle, and ammo for the aforementioned weapons, the dynamics of fighting on the ground become very different. I can throw a punch with all that gear on... I can't say the same for a triangle, nor can I say I'd definitely want to, given where a triangle may place my holster relative to the suspect. Finally, given the realities of real-world fighting, as a military LEO, I don't want my primary defensive system to be so ground heavy... you don't have to worry about your suspect's buddy kicking you in the head when you're in a controlled environment.

I'd be interested to see what [Kemposhot] thinks about this, as he is an actual cop!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Absolutely. I got beaten up once in a street fight because the other guy hit me while I was getting my hand wraps done and choosing my walk out music.
> 
> There is just no parallel between them.
> 
> This was the song by the way.


That's okay. I keep getting beaten up while I'm trying to get my shoes off and tie my belt properly. Imagine how badly those Kendo folks must fare.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Oni_Kadaki said:


> Whoa, guy, are you suggesting that regular practice trumps the differences between disciplines?
> 
> The US Air Force Security Forces (Air Force military police) teaches a combatives curriculum that is virtually all BJJ. I take issue with it. That's not to say I take issue with BJJ... it has saved my life, so I have a special place for it in my heart. But, when you consider that many defenders (USAF security forces) will take two weeks of combatives in the academy, do a refresher once or twice yearly, and that's IT, I believe BJJ is way too complicated to be the basis of the system. Now, we can argue that they should train more REGARDLESS of the system (I've said it many times), but, the fact is that someone can become decently proficient in throwing punches, blocks, and low kicks with two weeks of defensive training. That's not to say they will be able to throw a punch with the brutal efficiency of a 3rd dan in Shotokan, but they can probably stand their own against a drunk or an irate cyber nerd, which is generally what an USAF cop needs to be able to do. BJJ is more nuanced, and I'd argue you need considerably more time to develop even a semblance of proficiency. Moreover, BJJ trains in conditions that are vastly different from the real world. True, all martial arts do, but the fact that I'm wearing a plate carrier with level II or III plates, a baton, a Beretta 92, possibly an M4 assault rifle, and ammo for the aforementioned weapons, the dynamics of fighting on the ground become very different. I can throw a punch with all that gear on... I can't say the same for a triangle, nor can I say I'd definitely want to, given where a triangle may place my holster relative to the suspect. Finally, given the realities of real-world fighting, as a military LEO, I don't want my primary defensive system to be so ground heavy... you don't have to worry about your suspect's buddy kicking you in the head when you're in a controlled environment.
> 
> I'd be interested to see what [Kemposhot] thinks about this, as he is an actual cop!


There are definitely parts of BJJ (as with any grappling system) that get too technical for short courses like DT. There are also parts of BJJ that are simple and more mechanical (think a basic sweep, technical stand up, even a simple guard pass) that aren't so hard to get competent at to that same level (against the drunk or otherwise not-so-competent fighter). Pair that with some basic striking, a couple of easy takedowns, and some upright locks that lead to easy cuffing, and you've got something 2 weeks can cover without getting technical.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Absolutely. I got beaten up once in a street fight because the other guy hit me while I was getting my hand wraps done and choosing my walk out music.
> 
> There is just no parallel between them.
> 
> This was the song by the way.


Oh, and I forgot the time I got seriously beaten or killed while searching for a clean spot to fight in. There's gravel and glass everywhere out there in the street, man.


----------



## Deleted member 40465

Hanzou said:


> Interesting article and video about a firefighter who was shot and killed. The video in the article makes the argument that because of Bjj's ground fighting expertise they can control suspects better and help avoid cops losing control and getting accidently shot or stabbed. I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.
> 
> Fatal Shooting of Firefighter: Why Every Cop Should Train BJJ


No. Even Renner Gracie trains members of law enforcement to not go to ground because suspects can get ahold of items on their utility belt gun, spray etc.


----------



## Hanzou

boldeagle67 said:


> No. Even Renner Gracie trains members of law enforcement to not go to ground because suspects can get ahold of items on their utility belt gun, spray etc.



There's a difference between purposely taking someone to the ground, and being knocked down/forced to the ground. BJJ teaches you how to deal with both situations.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Oh, and I forgot the time I got seriously beaten or killed while searching for a clean spot to fight in. There's gravel and glass everywhere out there in the street, man.



The floor is lava.


----------



## drop bear

boldeagle67 said:


> No. Even Renner Gracie trains members of law enforcement to not go to ground because suspects can get ahold of items on their utility belt gun, spray etc.



Do they though?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Absolutely. I got beaten up once in a street fight because the other guy hit me while I was getting my hand wraps done and choosing my walk out music.
> 
> There is just no parallel between them.
> 
> This was the song by the way.



This was a great song for a walk out!


----------



## Buka

Anyone working as a police officer might have different thoughts on this subject than anyone not working as a police officer.

Anyone who trains BJJ might have different thoughts on this than anyone who doesn't train BJJ. 

Anyone who works as a police officer _and_ trains BJJ might have different opinions as well. I think for the most part each and all would be valid.

I guess it could depend on how and when any or all of these experiences took place, how they first presented themselves to you, and what the hell you did with them.

As for me, I'm good thanks. I'll keep doing what I've been doing and teaching what I've been teaching. Haven't lost any guys yet. I've had good law Enforcement trainers, on high levels. The BJJ instructors weren't too shabby either.


----------



## Deleted member 40465

Hanzou said:


> There's a difference between purposely taking someone to the ground, and being knocked down/forced to the ground. BJJ teaches you how to deal with both situations.



True, it definately won't hurt to have BJJ tools, ever, just saying it wouldn't be a priority style for  law enforcement.


----------



## Deleted member 40465

drop bear said:


> Do they though?


For the seminars they give to DEA agents they focus on standing self defense stuff.


----------



## drop bear

boldeagle67 said:


> For the seminars they give to DEA agents they focus on standing self defense stuff.



Because of all those resisted arrests that end standing?


----------



## Deleted member 40465

drop bear said:


> Because of all those resisted arrests that end standing?


Actually they have their own training/techniques for handcuffing suspects, they're not actually using kimuras or omoplatas to make them tap out or anything.

Either way most of the cops Ive worked with love BJJ.


----------



## Hanzou

boldeagle67 said:


> True, it definately won't hurt to have BJJ tools, ever, just saying it wouldn't be a priority style for  law enforcement.



It should be. I cant think of many situations more precarious than being knocked down, and having a suspect being on top of you reaching for your weapon (see about 9:30 in Drop Bears video). I also really cant think of another MA that could help you deal with that situation better than BJJ (or BJJ derived).


----------



## Deleted member 40465

Absolutely that would be BJJ. Most law enforcement self defense programs ive seen have the trap and roll escape. Bjj would also be good for positional control and getting them to give you their back as well.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> It should be. I cant think of many situations more precarious than being knocked down, and having a suspect being on top of you reaching for your weapon (see about 9:30 in Drop Bears video). I also really cant think of another MA that could help you deal with that situation better than BJJ (or BJJ derived).



I will let you in on a little secret. You basically cannot fight hand cuffs on someone while they are still standing.

(Actually I might have a way to do it. But I would want to be so slick and they would have to be extra crap to catch them in it. It is also the one I use for girls because there is less risk of me groping them.)


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## CB Jones

Hanzou said:


> It should be. I cant think of many situations more precarious than being knocked down, and having a suspect being on top of you reaching for your weapon (see about 9:30 in Drop Bears video). I also really cant think of another MA that could help you deal with that situation better than BJJ (or BJJ derived).



Most Defensive tactics systems coming out now use BJJ techniques. They take the techniques that will work in LEO instead of the whole art.  They also take techniques that dont quite fit our needs and modify them to fit them.  Many of the tactics also have to be modified for weapon retention.

All the escapes from the bottom are BJJ with some modification for weapon retention. 

Our handcuffing position is a modified version of knee to belly....we use knee to back.


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## Hanzou

CB Jones said:


> Most Defensive tactics systems coming out now use BJJ techniques. They take the techniques that will work in LEO instead of the whole art.  They also take techniques that dont quite fit our needs and modify them to fit them.  Many of the tactics also have to be modified for weapon retention.
> 
> All the escapes from the bottom are BJJ with some modification for weapon retention.
> 
> Our handcuffing position is a modified version of knee to belly....we use knee to back.



Yeah, the bottom escapes/counters and top control methods in BJJ are invaluable imo. Of all things I learned, those two attributes saved my butt more than anything else.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Because of all those resisted arrests that end standing?



Because you put emphasis on problems you are seeing in the field during use of force actions.

It's a continual analysis of what is happening in the field.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Because you put emphasis on problems you are seeing in the field during use of force actions.
> 
> It's a continual analysis of what is happening in the field.



Sounds complicated. 

Let's try this.

Because if an arrest turns in to a fight you dump the guy on his *** and sit on him. 

Sort of. There are bouncer issues where you don't necessarily have that luxury. But otherwise it is consistent world wide and job wide.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Most Defensive tactics systems coming out now use BJJ techniques. They take the techniques that will work in LEO instead of the whole art.  They also take techniques that dont quite fit our needs and modify them to fit them.  Many of the tactics also have to be modified for weapon retention.
> 
> All the escapes from the bottom are BJJ with some modification for weapon retention.
> 
> Our handcuffing position is a modified version of knee to belly....we use knee to back.



Interestingly. I don't think knee to back really works well. (For all those who are proficient in ompapalata mechanics. Your body needs to be off them not on them)

But yeah. The last guy who did cuffing with us did that sort of back ride. And it didn't feel heavy.

Getting up from face down is different. It is very much from your feet and hips. Where as face up is from the head.

There are these really nice options for flattening guys out from turtle used in wrestling that are so much higher percentage.

A spiral ride apparently.


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## JP3

drop bear said:


> Sounds complicated.
> 
> Let's try this.
> 
> Because if an arrest turns in to a fight you dump the guy on his *** and sit on him.
> 
> Sort of. There are bouncer issues where you don't necessarily have that luxury. But otherwise it is consistent world wide and job wide.


Drop, I think you've just claimed the title of Master of Understatement, right there.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Sounds complicated.
> 
> Let's try this.
> 
> Because if an arrest turns in to a fight you dump the guy on his *** and sit on him.
> 
> Sort of. There are bouncer issues where you don't necessarily have that luxury. But otherwise it is consistent world wide and job wide.



Not really.

All use of force and report of injuries are reviewed and recorded.  Recurring problems or deficiencies (striking, grappling, problems with specific techniques or tactics, etc...) are noted and additional training or changes in techniques or tactics are provided.

Most agencies share info on changes in techniques and tactics so tactics are always evolving.


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## dvcochran

Buka said:


> Anyone working as a police officer might have different thoughts on this subject than anyone not working as a police officer.
> 
> Anyone who trains BJJ might have different thoughts on this than anyone who doesn't train BJJ.
> 
> Anyone who works as a police officer _and_ trains BJJ might have different opinions as well. I think for the most part each and all would be valid.
> 
> I guess it could depend on how and when any or all of these experiences took place, how they first presented themselves to you, and what the hell you did with them.
> 
> As for me, I'm good thanks. I'll keep doing what I've been doing and teaching what I've been teaching. Haven't lost any guys yet. I've had good law Enforcement trainers, on high levels. The BJJ instructors weren't too shabby either.



I have read all the posts in this thread. I just keep thinking of the 6' rule; or in other words, stay the hell out of my space. I strongly agree with the posts that talk about controlling the takedown. I have never practiced BJJ but I was very comfortable with a takedown when it came to it. I have worked with some pretty aggressive officers who frankly loved the contact. They always had a lot more resisting arrest charges than I did. I am a big believer in presentation, posture, tone, etc... Just don't give them too long to think about it; that is usually when someone will try something stupid.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Not really.
> 
> All use of force and report of injuries are reviewed and recorded.  Recurring problems or deficiencies (striking, grappling, problems with specific techniques or tactics, etc...) are noted and additional training or changes in techniques or tactics are provided.
> 
> Most agencies share info on changes in techniques and tactics so tactics are always evolving.



I did customer service training the other day. Apparently the CEO's of the company looked in the fridges of 200 people to get a better understanding of customers needs.

Didn't make the training worth going to though.

As a side note. I learned to sell alcohol to people you need to be able to have a normal functional conversation with people. 

Trainer "So how would you provide an authentic customer experience?"

Me "give any sort of **** at all about the person you are having that conversation with.
" 

Trainer. "I am sorry I don't know what you mean."


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## JP3

CB Jones said:


> Not really.
> 
> All use of force and report of injuries are reviewed and recorded.  Recurring problems or deficiencies (striking, grappling, problems with specific techniques or tactics, etc...) are noted and additional training or changes in techniques or tactics are provided.
> 
> Most agencies share info on changes in techniques and tactics so tactics are always evolving.


What? You mean cops worldwide aren't stuck into WWII Combatives and just sent on their merry way? I'm surprised by that.

J/K

"Some" of the officers I know are near-maniacal about their training, be it with firearms, SD, tactics, CQB...whatever.

BUt… "some" are disturbingly... not relaxed, relaxed isn't a strong enough word as it has too many letters in it, so let's just say they are lax.  When I worked the field, and all I did was 911 Paramedic, I was in the gym every off day lifting/working out, and in the dojo or Muay Thai gym every day. Single then, which helped, but still.


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## CB Jones

JP3 said:


> What? You mean cops worldwide aren't stuck into WWII Combatives and just sent on their merry way? I'm surprised by that.
> 
> J/K
> 
> "Some" of the officers I know are near-maniacal about their training, be it with firearms, SD, tactics, CQB...whatever.
> 
> BUt… "some" are disturbingly... not relaxed, relaxed isn't a strong enough word as it has too many letters in it, so let's just say they are lax.  When I worked the field, and all I did was 911 Paramedic, I was in the gym every off day lifting/working out, and in the dojo or Muay Thai gym every day. Single then, which helped, but still.



Also it can be hard to convince officers to change what they have been doing sucessfully for a long time.

For example, doing entry and clearing buildings....for all of my career, we hit doors, dominate the room with speed and surprise....now they are teaching a slower approach....open the door and wait....cut the pie and then enter quickly and dominate the room.

Statistically, it is safer for the officers but after doing fast entries for 14 years it's hard to buy into the slower approach.


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## dvcochran

CB Jones said:


> Also it can be hard to convince officers to change what they have been doing sucessfully for a long time.
> 
> For example, doing entry and clearing buildings....for all of my career, we hit doors, dominate the room with speed and surprise....now they are teaching a slower approach....open the door and wait....cut the pie and then enter quickly and dominate the room.
> 
> Statistically, it is safer for the officers but after doing fast entries for 14 years it's hard to buy into the slower approach.


When I starting teaching DT's for our PD I was one of the younger officers. I still remember teaching joint manipulations and takedowns and being told by multiple officers "I don't need this crap,  when do we work on slap jack drills? f you don't know what that is:







I don't remember the strap but, you get the idea. Some guys had worked the handle until they would fold over. They would put the end in their palm and slap the s*** out of someone being rowdy.


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## CB Jones

dvcochran said:


> When I starting teaching DT's for our PD I was one of the younger officers. I still remember teaching joint manipulations and takedowns and being told by multiple officers "I don't need this crap,  when do we work on slap jack drills? f you don't know what that is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the strap but, you get the idea. Some guys had worked the handle until they would fold over. They would put the end in their palm and slap the s*** out of someone being rowdy.



Slap Jack's were gone by the time I started but my buddies dad had one.....that thing was brutal....I cant imagine getting hit by one.


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## marques

Cops want the back of the ‘bad guys’, for hand cuffing and so on; and they would prefer to be on top. As cops are very often limited to grappling Bjj would help, but I believe something more specific would be better. 2 cops (2 good guys) vs 1 ‘bad guy’ is a likely scenario in real life that I have not seen anywhere; they need to protect themselves AND their weapons...


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## drop bear

marques said:


> Cops want the back of the ‘bad guys’, for hand cuffing and so on; and they would prefer to be on top. As cops are very often limited to grappling Bjj would help, but I believe something more specific would be better. 2 cops (2 good guys) vs 1 ‘bad guy’ is a likely scenario in real life that I have not seen anywhere; they need to protect themselves AND their weapons...




The order of priorities change a bit. As there a few things you can do and a few you can't in that situation. 

Sweeps become hard because you almost never manage to build up momentum if there is another guy hanging on. But rides become very effective because you have twice the weight. 

I got away with some very sneaky figure 4 leg locks just because the guy couldn't really roll out to escape them.


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## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> The order of priorities change a bit. As there a few things you can do and a few you can't in that situation.
> 
> Sweeps become hard because you almost never manage to build up momentum if there is another guy hanging on. But rides become very effective because you have twice the weight.
> 
> I got away with some very sneaky figure 4 leg locks just because the guy couldn't really roll out to escape them.



I am a super middle weight (around 170) and not overly tall. I am really good at a rear choke to clamp the carotid arteries. We had a few regulars who are really big and loved to fight. I remember more than a few times where I would jump on their back and ride them until they finally went down.  Good times.


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