# Wing Chun vs Kyokushin Physical Analysis



## Nicholas82555 (Jul 7, 2010)

I believe  even as a WCnr one should train their bodies to be physically tough. This is where I C Kyokushin excels and WC "in general" lacks but I guess it's a personal preference.

I use to train under a master in Korea (no non sense) old school. I don't believe in matching brute force with force but you better be able to take a hard shot if you just so happen to get caught and you will get caught once in awhile.

All in all, it's a personal preference. If I get caught and I will once in awhile, I won't be shock at all.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2010)

Tactile Sensitivity - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Lightning Speed - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Non Telegraphic Movement - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Close Range Combat - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Simultaneous Counter Attack - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Economy of Movement - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Minimum Use of Brute Strength- This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Based On Natural and Scientific Laws - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Directness - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Conservation of Energy - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Centre Line Theory - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Use of Deflection - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Hand Trapping - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Maximises Use of Mass and Acceleration - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Upper and Lower Body Locked at Waist - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

The One Inch Punch - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

Able to Fight In the Dark - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.

etc etc etc.


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## cwk (Jul 8, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Tactile Sensitivity - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.
> 
> Lightning Speed - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.
> 
> ...



Any more questions?? lol


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## dosk3n (Jul 8, 2010)

Id personally prefer to use that extra time training to be a more skilled fighter instead of using it to toughen my body. I feel as long as I keep healthy then I will have the stamina to take a hit.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> Id personally prefer to use that extra time training to be a more skilled fighter instead of using it to toughen my body. I feel as long as I keep healthy then I will have the stamina to take a hit.


 
Thats it mate , and the  toughening of the body is a natural by product of hard training anyway.


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## coffeerox (Jul 8, 2010)

I'd like to be as physically tough as kyokushin there is nothing wrong w/ that.


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2010)

Why kyokushin? Plenty of other styles can be just as 'tough', its down to the person not the art, I know a very tough guy from Whin Chun and a very wimpy guy from MMA!
Posts that say 'my art is better than yours' are boring and unnecessary but when answered in the way mook jong man has, also very, very funny.


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## dosk3n (Jul 8, 2010)

Yeah the argument of which art is better just gets old after a while. We all know its Vincent Van Gogh.


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I'd like to be as physically tough as kyokushin there is nothing wrong w/ that.



I agree that being in good shape generally is a great idea. But we don't waste a lot of our limited class time on  general conditioning (outside of what we specifically need for WC). You can do that stuff on your own and without spending money. Body-weight exercises are free. You can accomplish a lot without having to invest in expensive equipment or a gym membership. 

On the other hand, Navi, keep in mind that you have to be able to relax and be loose to move like a 'chunner.  Certain kinds of conditioning can produce undesirable tension and rigidity which will impede your development, especially where sensitivity, speed and "springy-energy" are needed. My instructor is short, heavy, and _looks_ out of shape, yet he can throw some of his buffest students around like rag-dolls. And not only is he powerful, but he's extremely fast, and so relaxed that those same buff students get totally exhausted working with him while he doesn't even break a sweat. Now that's what WC/VT/WT should be about!


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Why kyokushin? Plenty of other styles can be just as 'tough', its down to the person not the art, I know a very tough guy from *Whin Chun* and a very wimpy guy from MMA!
> Posts that say 'my art is better than yours' are boring and unnecessary but when answered in the way mook jong man has, also very, very funny.



Good post ...and a really funny typo, Irene. I think it's inspiring me to concoct a new motto: _More Wing Chun, less Whine Chun!_


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2010)

geezer said:


> Good post ...and a really funny typo, Irene. I think it's inspiring me to concoct a new motto: _More Wing Chun, less Whine Chun!_


 

Well I have to write the word lol if I write WC as a lot of you do it has different connotations in the UK and I think you are always off to the loo. ( ok lavatory for the non Brits). I think actually I was thinking about too many things when I misnamed it!

I have to say too there's times when a certain rigidity is called for :ultracool


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 8, 2010)

I found all the responses to very informative but make no mistake a one slightly mentions one art "better than the other" that wasn't the issue. The issue was physical toughness to withstand hard strike if unavoidable...not technical skills... Once again, all excellent responses and opinions. It was all about physical conditioning.

Props to all. It's all about making WC better. I think a perfect example of someone who can deliver physically and take one physical and yet he excels in all of the arts contrary to popular conception is Bolo Yeung (Tai Chi))


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 8, 2010)

Stay thirsty my friends


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I found all the responses to very informative but make no mistake a one slightly mentions one art "better than the other" that wasn't the issue. The issue was physical toughness to withstand hard strike if unavoidable...not technical skills... Once again, all excellent responses and opinions. It was all about physical conditioning.
> 
> Props to all. It's all about making WC better. I think a perfect example of someone who can deliver physically and take one physical and yet he excels in all of the arts contrary to popular conception is Bolo Yeung (Tai Chi))


 

Whatever your intentions posting Wing Chun *V *Kyokushin you immediately made it a style versus style thread. I would suggest next time a less misleading and contentious title.


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## coffeerox (Jul 8, 2010)

I didn't get that idea at all.  It says it right up in the thread title, physical analysis.  It's a comparison, not one is better than the other.  OP personal preference is that he should be able to take in the shots if he gets hit.  I most definitely see the value in this.


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## yak sao (Jul 8, 2010)

Because "WC" is principle based and many of its aspects are internal in nature, I think it's very easy to allow WC to fall into so much theory not much substance, and chi sao can become nothing more than a sophisticated game of tag. 
So it is very important to keep the realism in your training. Being able to give as well as receive.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 8, 2010)

Sometimes ppl want to read into what's not there.....TMI (Too Much Insight) Is it what I said.....Physical Analysis.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 8, 2010)

Remember me...........if I ask a question it's only to gain knowlegde no more no less. Why look for a confrontation when the confrontation initially lays within you.


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## Omar B (Jul 8, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> Sometimes ppl want to read into what's not there.....TMI (Too Much Insight) Is it what I said.....Physical Analysis.



WC is principle based?  so is this implying that there are no principles in Kyokushin?  Because I know that to not be the case.

This style versus style crap is tired, every time you try to list this or that you end up excluding the human factor and what is implicit rather than explicit within the style.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 8, 2010)

Why is it whenever a question is asked for clarification there's always someone looking for a confrontation.............read my last imput.     To know urself is one thing and to know ur opponent possible capabilities is a blessing. Educate don't denegrate. 

In order to have friends and good associates, u must first show urself to be friendly.


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> Remember me...........if I ask a question it's only to gain knowlegde no more no less. Why look for a confrontation when the confrontation initially lays within you.


 

I'm sure you didn't look for confrontation, its just that there's a history of posts that have the title 'style V style' that set peoples backs up the minute they see it, many people like myself look through the new posts first and when that pops up, it's oh no there's going to be an argument lol! I know it would have made a longer title if you'd put something else but it would have been worth it. The tone is then set for a friendly discussion rather than posts getting anti.


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## coffeerox (Jul 8, 2010)

Omar B said:


> WC is principle based?  so is this implying that there are no principles in Kyokushin?  Because I know that to not be the case.
> 
> This style versus style crap is tired, every time you try to list this or that you end up excluding the human factor and what is implicit rather than explicit within the style.



but he didn't really list anything now did he.  that was someone else.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 8, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Tactile Sensitivity - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.
> 
> Lightning Speed - This is where Wing Chun excels and Kyokushin in general lacks.
> 
> ...


 
Do you know for sure that Kyokuskin is lacking in all this?  Or that Wing Chun excells beyond Kyokushin in all of this?


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you know for sure that Kyokuskin is lacking in all this? Or that Wing Chun excells beyond Kyokushin in all of this?


 
Oh I was just making assumptions , the same thing the original poster did when he assumed that Wing Chun people are somehow lacking in toughness.

Remember when you assume you make an **** *out of *U *and *ME*.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 8, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Oh I was just making assumptions , the same thing the original poster did when he assumed that Wing Chun people are somehow lacking in toughness.
> 
> Remember when you assume you make an **** *out of *U *and *ME*.


 
fair enough.


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 8, 2010)

most people never go beyond what is taught during a regular class,both
Sifu Emin & Sifu Michael Casey once told me "we expect more out of our 
*fighters*"......train like you fight....two cents....


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 8, 2010)

You must have gotten an "A" in reading comprehension


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## dosk3n (Jul 9, 2010)

I see the benfits of being able to take a hit. However you dont need to train a certain style to take a hit. Having a high stamina and being all round healthy and toned from general training will allow you to be able to take a hit and sparing can help you mentally take a hit.

My opinion on styles that use training tactics to strengthen there body is more of a power play. To intimidate others. The same as the all blacks (rugby team) have a "dance" used to intimidate the other team.

I think its an effective measure for intimidation and I think that was its original intention as like I have said you do not need to directly train your body to take a punch.


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## Poor Uke (Jul 9, 2010)

Re. OP :

In my experince of Wing Chun I would defnitly agree that it dose not contain a high degree of physical conditioning. My old WC Sifu put it this way (I'm paraphrasing) "you should be doing that yourself, why waste valuable time here". Which I kind of agree with, unless of course you have no idea how to do it!

You also have to remember that if you slight WC in any precieved way (which I actually think you didnt), _mook jong man_ will fire off a post of WC platitudes quicker than you can one inch punch a phone directory.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you know for sure that Kyokuskin is lacking in all this?  Or that Wing Chun excells beyond Kyokushin in all of this?



Maybe a knowledgeable Kyokushin practitioner should post a list of it's strengths. 

I really know almost nothing about the system or it's founder, Mas Oyama except I'm told...

1. It's a very "hard", external system of Karate, similar to Shotokan.

2. It trains for maximum power and the "one-punch kill" concept.

3. They do a lot of "hard body" conditioning and sometimes test this by breaking boards and sticks on practitioners' limbs and bodies.

4. Like most Karate ryu, it is a longer range system than WC, stressing long-bridge punching and kicking and favoring linear techniques.

5. Like most Karate ryu it employs a 1-2 block and counter rhythm rather than the simultaneous defense- attack of WC, _except_ that the blocks are so aggressively delivered that they _are_ attacks (as limb destructions).

6. They hold tough full contact tournaments which, inexplicably _don't allow head punches,_ making it really tough to pair against WC. I don't know if they can kick to the head.

7. There is a youtube clip that everybody seems to have seen in which a pathetic excuse for a "WC fighter" goes up against a very accomplished Kyokushin fighter (in a Kyokushin tournament) and, predictably, gets his clock cleaned. LOL.

8. When I was still a kid, everybody interested in the MA talked about Mas Oyama breaking the horn of a bull or steer, or something. I think I saw a picture of it.

...OK. That's my level of ignorance. Now how about _somebody who actually knows something about Kyokushin_ posting for a change!


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## Tez3 (Jul 9, 2010)

No 2...where's the fun in punching only once?

Sorry can't speak for Kyokushin, can do you a good Wado Ryu though.


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## coffeerox (Jul 9, 2010)

I like the one hit finish concept.  Bruce Lee was a major proponent of this idea, especially after the Wong Jack Man fight, he was so displeased that he sought out to refine his Wing Chun concepts.  Other well known Sifu that I know of that teaches and emphasizes this  (that I've seen) are Gary Lam (WSL lineage) and Michael Wong.

My friend and I joke that Bruce wanted to "beat a master in 3", 3 meaning 3 minutes haha! If it's not 3 minutes it's no good!  Personally I think that Bruce's ego was a bit too big considering that taking a master is no easy feat and definitely not in 3 minutes. 

That idea is a great self-defense concept though.  Why fight longer when you have to, further putting yourself in more risk?  Against someone out in the street, and with your proper training, you should be able to finish them in a very short period of time.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I like the one hit finish concept...  Against someone out in the street, and with your proper training, you should be able to finish them in a very short period of time.



This is so true. But regardless of your style, never _assume_ that one punch will do the job. In my experience, nobody hits harder than a good boxer, but how many one-punch knockouts do you see... or fights that end on the first exchange of blows in the opening of round one? Sure it happens... but not very often. That's why you've got to be able to follow up a good hit and not give your opponent a chance to recover!


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## coffeerox (Jul 9, 2010)

geezer said:


> This is so true. But regardless of your style, never _assume_ that one punch will do the job. In my experience, nobody hits harder than a good boxer, but how many one-punch knockouts do you see... or fights that end on the first exchange of blows in the opening of round one? Sure it happens... but not very often. That's why you've got to be able to follow up a good hit and not give your opponent a chance to recover!



true  That's why WC practitioners keep going even as their opponent is on the way down  It's one of the things I love most about WC.


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 9, 2010)

geezer said:


> but how many one-punch knockouts do you see... or fights that end on the first exchange of blows in the opening of round one? Sure it happens... but not very often. That's why you've got to be able to follow up a good hit and not give your opponent a chance to recover!


 
I'm sorry geezer, you asked for it.  I've seen quite a few of them . . . . . in the UFC, WEC, and such.  However, I believe like you, in following up and giving them as many punches as I can fire off to knock em out.


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## Tez3 (Jul 9, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> I'm sorry geezer, you asked for it. I've seen quite a few of them . . . . . in the UFC, WEC, and such. However, I believe like you, in following up and giving them as many punches as I can fire off to knock em out.


 
True but they weren't intended as a 'one punch' KO, the fighters carry on striking until told to stop by the ref.


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 10, 2010)

the most common thing that I hear,(coming from the MMA schooled folk from  here in central Florida) is the kill shot to the jaw,which they say will take the fight out a man,the other is to blitz, slam and mount on the ground.
The only way I have found to overcome this attack is to keep my head out of his range and to utilize all of my tools,kicks,knees, elbows.It's hard just to demonstrate this, in reality there is no fair fight,especially if this guy is a tank,you have to hurt your opponent.Yes,a well trained hard stylist is a formidable opponent,and you might end up with a broken limb (hence why you should close the gap).I used to train under Gert Dieffenthal (2nd deg.no mcdojo here) in Europe who trained directly under Master Kwon Jae Hwa (one of his schools is in Ft.Lauderdale,Master Kwon Jae Hwa is still kicking),these people didn't play games,no padding,at least the school I attended.The transition from hard to well... almost soft was a little difficult at first.Wing Tsun most certainly conditions a person,to me it's likened to a steel coil and a whip.Two cents.....


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## Tez3 (Jul 10, 2010)

qwksilver61 said:


> the most common thing that I hear,(coming from the MMA schooled folk from here in central Florida) is the kill *shot to* *the jaw*,which they say will take the fight out a man,the other is to blitz, slam and mount on the ground.
> The only way I have found to overcome this attack is to keep my head out of his range and to utilize all of my tools,kicks,knees, elbows.It's hard just to demonstrate this, in reality there is no fair fight,especially if this guy is a tank,you have to hurt your opponent.Yes,a well trained hard stylist is a formidable opponent,and you might end up with a broken limb (hence why you should close the gap).I used to train under Gert Dieffenthal (2nd deg.no mcdojo here) in Europe who trained directly under Master Kwon Jae Hwa (one of his schools is in Ft.Lauderdale,Master Kwon Jae Hwa is still kicking),these people didn't play games,no padding,at least the school I attended.The transition from hard to well... almost soft was a little difficult at first.Wing Tsun most certainly conditions a person,to me it's likened to a steel coil and a whip.Two cents.....


 

It may but for a 100% shot go for the liver, Bas Rutten would kick to the liver but even a hard slap will have you on the floor throwing up every time. I've been knocked out and I've been liver punched and KO is def better if you're on the end of it!! Doesn't matter how big you are or even how tough - the liver shot is the fight winner for sure, jaws may go or maybe not.


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 10, 2010)

c'mon, help me somebody....


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 12, 2010)

missquote....sorry,not meant for you Tez3


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## Poor Uke (Jul 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> 6. They hold tough full contact tournaments which, inexplicably _don't allow head punches,_ making it really tough to pair against WC. I don't know if they can kick to the head.


 
This was brought in due to the the number of deaths and serious permenant injuries that were occuring in Kykushin tournies, which traditionally were, anything goes.


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## geezer (Jul 14, 2010)

Poor Uke said:


> This was brought in due to the the number of deaths and serious permenant injuries that were occuring in Kykushin tournies, which traditionally were, anything goes.



Interesting. Were those injuries due to the lack of gloves and headgear? I find it unlikely that Kyokushin fighters hit harder that boxers and Muay Thai fighters. 

If you want to make a fighting sport safer, you have to either restrict techniques, use protection (gloves, headgear, etc.), or restrict power (limited-contact). Different kinds of sport fighting competitions use some combination of these restrictions to achieve an acceptably safe level of competition. Obviously, the degree and nature of the restrictions determines the character and appeal of the contest.  It is just the idea of totally restricting head shots that I found surprising in a system priding itself on "realism". It seems that that approach compromises the nature of a pugilistic or percussive sport more than the approaches used in other such sports, such as Boxing, MT, UFC, and so forth. Now, that said, I have no problem with any group competing according to whatever rules they find useful. The problem arises when you try to use these kind of competitions to compare the effectiveness of_ different_ styles.


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## Poor Uke (Jul 14, 2010)

Kyokushin does allow head shots if they are wearing gloves whilst sparring just not in comps which are bare fist.


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