# Question About Dragon Imagery



## Caesar (Jul 14, 2006)

Hey,

I just posted my intro.   I haven't started practicing any martial arts yet.  I wanted to learn more about them, but I joined any of the schools around here.  It has been something I've been interested in for years.  Right now I've been mostly doing boxing, weights, and things of that nature.  

I did have a question.  My mom asked me this one day recently when I told her I was interested in martial arts.  It got me thinking.  I know that dragons are in a lot of Asian imagery.  Being brought up in a Christian household, we always saw dragons as being symbolic of Satan, such as St. Michael battling Satan the dragon, etc.  My mom asked me how can I reconcile the symbolism of dragons within Christianity and them in Asian culture.  I didn't know what to say to her.

I was hoping to get some opinions on this.  How do I answer this?  I guess especialy if there are other Christians here then how do you do it.  I appreciate any feedback.  Thanks.

Sincerely,
Dante


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## Flying Crane (Jul 14, 2006)

You should do some research into Asian mythology and culture to reconcile this for yourself.  I am no expert and cannot adequately explain this, but I do know that in Asian culture the Dragon is a benevolent and powerful symbolic being and has absolutely no connection to Satan.


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## HKphooey (Jul 14, 2006)

I was always brought up to know Satan symbolized as a serpent, not a dragon.  For me as martial artist and a Christain, a dragon symbolizes wisdom that cannot be easily obtained or seen.  It is a mythical creature that has cunning, backed by great power. 

I guess put it this way, if you wanted to be a doctor, would your mom question that choice becasue of the snake used in the caduceus (medical symbol).

Trust me I know where you are coming from.  I went to 12 years of CCD and CYO classes.  My mom thought everything was evil (including some of my girlfriends )

As Crane stated, check out some info on the subject.  Here is a link I have used before.  I have a dragon tatoo.  Had to explain it to mom!

http://www.mythicalrealm.com/creatures/chinese_dragon.html


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## Flying Crane (Jul 14, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> I was always brought up to know Satan symbolized as a serpent, not a dragon.


 
Interesting point.  I was raised Catholic, but have not been practicing for many years.  I seem to recall the Dragon-Satan link.  Don't remember if it was literally Satan in the form of the Dragon, or if the Dragon was simply a symbol of evil which, in a Western (Judeo/Christian/Muslim) society would trace back to Satan.

Western culture has often portrayed the Dragon as evil.  A good example is the Dragon in _Beowulf,_ sitting on his hoard of gold in his lair under a mountainside.  This is the model upon which Tolkien (a very devout Catholic, by the way) built Smaug in _The Hobbit_.  

TSR Hobbies _Dungeons and Dragons_ game took an interesting approach to this.  They took the Western notion of the Dragon and created several types, some of which were characteristically Evil, others Neutral, and still others actually aligned with Good.  I thought that was kind of progressive of them.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 14, 2006)

Actually, dragons do symbolize satan in Christianity. While western dragons symbolize evil, Asian dragons are symbols of peaceful creatures and are considered lucky. Many born-again Christians practice martial arts and there is a lot of good information available to help those who have reservations due to faith issues reconcile martial arts and their faith.


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## Jimi (Jul 14, 2006)

I agree, research dragons and inform yourself as best you can. When you feel you have enough understanding that a dragon is not necessarily(SP?) evil, try to convey this to your mom. FAIR WARNING! She may be dead set in her beliefs and may not accept the idea. If she seems threatened by such insights, don't force it. If she does accept a contrary opinion and try to understand, the 2 of you can develop understanding of it together. Some parents in the past have sent their kids to behavioral correction institutions over things like D&D. This is not to say your mom will, just be sensitive to her beliefs and don't flaunt a dragon symbol if it upsets her. If her beliefs that dragons are evil are very strong,  realize she still has your best interest at heart. No mother wants to see her child carried away by a dragon or ozzy osbourne or alice cooper etc. LOL. Odds are she may come to understand that seeing a dragon as not really evil will not sent her to hell. Best of luck. PEACE


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## Flying Crane (Jul 14, 2006)

Another thing to think about, the Dragon is a common symbol in Asian culture, but not necessarily in all Asian martial arts.  It isn't a big deal everywhere.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 14, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Another thing to think about, the Dragon is a common symbol in Asian culture, but not necessarily in all Asian martial arts.  It isn't a big deal everywhere.



Good Point.


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## Triptych (Jul 14, 2006)

Just because two different cultures use the dragon as a symbol doesn't mean that they represent the same thing. I have read a passage from the Bible where Satan is symbolized as a dragon, but the dragon itself isn't evil. Satan is evil. The dragon was simply a literary tool used to create an image of something terrible, while at the same time a dragon can be used to represent might, or even beauty.

The fact is, the Martial Arts may actually aid in one's religious development. The discipline learned can be used to greatly promote righteousness in self.


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## HKphooey (Jul 14, 2006)

Triptych said:
			
		

> Just because two different cultures use the dragon as a symbol doesn't mean that they represent the same thing. I have read a passage from the Bible where Satan is symbolized as a dragon, but the dragon itself isn't evil. Satan is evil. The dragon was simply a literary tool used to create an image of something terrible, while at the same time a dragon can be used to represent might, or even beauty.
> 
> The fact is, the Martial Arts may actually aid in one's religious development. The discipline learned can be used to greatly promote righteousness in self.


 
True.

The devil has had many faces.


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## still learning (Jul 14, 2006)

Hello, In old China....pictures/clothes of dragons with 5 fingers on the claws were for China's royality people. Those in the high courts had 4 fingers, well to do 3 fingers and so on.

Today many martial artist uses the symbol of the dragon for the purpose to show "spirit"..same for the use of "Tigers"...Lions and Monkeys?

Enjoy whatever martial arts you want to train in...don't let the animals get in the way......Aloha


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## Caesar (Jul 15, 2006)

Hey,

Thanks so much for all the great response I got on this question.  I wasn't sure if I would get much feedback or not.  You all gave me some great ideas and suggestions.  I appreciate it.  

I do want to look up some information on my own, but I do feel like I've got a headway of something to say if she mentions it again or not.  

It's doubtful that it will change her mind, but at least it might ease her fears a little though.  She may not think I'm getting into devil worship or some cult.  I think she's just been looking for something to worry about since I moved into my own place a while ago.  Plus I stopped going to the church I grew up in and have been reading stuff about different philosophies and religions.

Personally I love dragons and love all the imagery surrounding them.  I never saw them as evil personified or anything, but I've come across a lot of people around here that do though.

Thanks again.

Dante


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## Flying Crane (Jul 15, 2006)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> She may not think I'm getting into devil worship or some cult.


 
Well, martial arts are definitely not devil worship, but some martial arts schools can be sort of "cult-like"  Just shop around and do your research before you decide who you want to study with.  Find a school and a teacher with whom you are comfortable.


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## Shaolinwind (Jul 15, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Enjoy whatever martial arts you want to train in...don't let the animals get in the way......Aloha


 
That's the main reason I stopped training at the petting zoo.


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## redfang (Jul 16, 2006)

Dragon myths abound that predate Christianity. Many of these, such as Marduk defeating Tiamat, are viewed as symbolic of the newer patriarchal religious views gaining ascendancy over the older goddess oriented religions. Snakes and dragons were a repeated, common symbol of the feminine principle. Even the snake in Genesis is viewed by many, not as the Devil as we think of him, but as the patriachal, monothestic Hebrew people villifying(sp?) the goddess heavy religion of Cannaan. 


As far as eastern dragons go, thats a whole other thing. The symbolism is not ours. However, I don't know enough Asian mythology to go into it.


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## stone_dragone (Jul 16, 2006)

Most of the religious symbolism and imagery that we have in modern Christianity stem from the literature of the middle-ages, not from the original authors of the books in the cannonical bible (the primary 66 books).  

The picture of satan/the devil that is most common (Goat footed, horns, beard, trident pitchfork, etc) is actually Pan or other satyrs, Nature based gods and creatures known for their frivolity...mischevous, yes, downright evil, no.

The imagry of the Dragon being associated with Satan comes from popular Elizabethan literature in which the Dragon was a symbol of evil, of obstacles to be overcome, and thus the translators of the King James version of the bible used that imagry to convey what was believed to be the ultimate evil, the father of sin, etc.

The same folks who brought us the Dark ages and the Inquisition (the established Catholic Church) brought us the Dragon=Satan equation.  

Incidentally, the same version of the bible (KJV) describes Lucifer (who then is named Satan) as a beautiful Angel of Light, too.  Is this to say that Angels are evil ?

Oh, and regarding the culture difference....I have nothing to add.

My two cents...


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## profesormental (Jul 16, 2006)

Greetings!

Symbols represent what YOU want them to represent to you, if you define them properly.

So the dragon, as a mythical creature, is different among different cultures and belief systems.

Do not confuse the western imagery of the dragon (which has manyinterpretations...) with the oriental dragon (which too, has many aspects and varieties!).

As stated before, the fingers and colors of the dragon represent different things... before, in China, if you wore a 5 fingered dragon, and you were not royalty, you were most probably killed! It was a symbol of royalty.

4 fingered ones wherer the philosopher dragons, 3 fingered were mostly representing elemental aspects of nature, etc.

Symbols and images should be used to guide you to an Ideal in your training and life direction...

This is important!

Before, people didn't have posters... if you wanted to be the best at something, you would use as inspiration adn guide the sculpture or image of SOMEONE or SOMETHING that ALREADY ACHIEVED what you want to do!

Now if you want to be good at something, like martial arts, people might get posters of Bruce Lee, their favorite fighters in their prime, or your martial ancestry, etc. If you wanted to be good at a sport, you would have Michale JOrdan for basketball, etc.

If you want "enlightment" (whatever it means to each individual) you get a Buddha poster or something (there are many Buddhas, i.e. ways to reach "enlightment"). If you want to be like Jesus, you get a picture of Jesus, to remind you of your goal.

Does that make sense?

Oriental dragons symbolize wisdom, knowledge, ability to adapt and change, power, carefully thought out action, etc.

If you explain that symbols have as much meaning as you personally put into them, and that dragon symbols represent the virtues that you want to achieve,

which are almost the same as the ones that are taught to the protectors of religions like Judeo/Chiristian and Buddhism (martial skill methods with names like Chuan Fa (chinese) mostly where to protect Buddhists... ending with Gar were usually family protection arts... check out various threads and historical references like Robert Smith's books).


Anyway, I hope this helps you and interests you in learning more!

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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