# i need help



## pinacolada23x (Jan 24, 2004)

i need help. i'm having a problem with my two head karate instructors. i feel like i can never go to them about a problem im having in karate because they always tell me im wrong or they yell at me. i feel like i can never mess up or i'll be punished. i always get chewed out by some instructors for things that arent even my fault. some of the rules in tang soo do are just crazy. i love karate and i love all the people. but sometimes i feel liek the instructors think they have all this power and use it against teh low rank, and especially. karate has just been giving me major problems lately. does anyone else feel liek this about their school or instructors or fellow martial artists? i mean, does anyone feel like this art is liek a cult? i mean im not syaing i ahte it but i just wonder if this is just too rediculous. i feel liek there are things that i dont know about this association that could be bad. does anyoen agree or could help me?! please!


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## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2004)

First of all, what sect of TSD do you train?  Secondly, give us some examples of treatment that you have faced in the past.  I have been involved in TSD for a while now and I may be able to de-mystify some of it for you.  I can't form opinions without some more info though...

Don't give up.  Keep Kicking!


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## pinacolada23x (Jan 24, 2004)

one day i was talking to one of my friends before class, she is a black belt and my age, and i was saying how cool it is she was going to be a junior and i was going to be a senior in hgih school. well, one of the other black belt instructors overheard our conversation. well we have two head instructors. a master, and his son. we call the father, master, and the son mr.____jr. so that instructor thought we were calling our master, senior. and mr. junior. she thought we were disrespecting them by not calling them by what we are suppose to. and she came over and just started yelling at me. telling me what i said was wrong and how it was disrespectful. but she yelled at me. then when i told her what i WAS talking about, she didnt even say sorry. also, i signed this paper that my black belt coach gave me, which i picked one of the head instructors, the son. and it says on it "you should go to your coach about anything and they will be there for you no matter the issue, and you should be able to talk to him/her" well, i went to him one day about how i felt that the instructors may be taking advantage of their power over their students which i feel is wrong. he got up from his chair and screamed in my face telling me i dont know what im talking about and that i was being disrespectful when i really wasnt. its ike everytime i do soemthing wrong i get pulverised for it. and what i do isnt even wrong. i feel like if i dont give them my 200% they will make me suffer and hate myself for ever not giving them my all. i mean, i dont get it, what should i do? i cant talk to them about it because they never admit when their wrong, and its almost like im not even treated like a human being. just because im a blue belt i have to kiss everyones butt. i mean its not right. i feel so un humane. do you think its is just this school, or is this how tang soo do is. i mean i have been in karate for almost 6 years. ahhhhh, what do i do?


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## Mithios (Jan 25, 2004)

What you are saying bring's back memories for me!! I went through the same kind of mess. Get out, or it will eat at you till you quit for good. It is not the style that is the problem, it is the chief instructor and other's who follow his lead!   Good luck, and keep us posted.      Mithios


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## psi_radar (Jan 25, 2004)

Umm. Is Tang Soo Do considered Karate? TSD is a Korean art. Karate refers to those of Japanese origin. Koreans hate the Japanese. Either you're using very general terms, which I doubt you would if you're a blue belt, or something's up. I smell a troll.

Edited for grammar.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *Umm. Is Tang Soo Do considered Karate? TSD is a Korean art. Karate refers to those of Japanese origin. Koreans hate the Japanese. Either you're using very general terms, which I doubt you would if you're a blue belt, or something's up. I smell a troll.
> 
> Edited for grammar. *



Maybe, Maybe not

Sometimes, in the English language, we absorb a word, and modify the meaning also at the same times. Karate is not a specific art to most Americans, it is a generic term used by millions to represent some for of martial art.

:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *Umm. Is Tang Soo Do considered Karate? TSD is a Korean art. Karate refers to those of Japanese origin.*



TSD is a Korean art with lots of kicking, yet heavily influence with kung fu and taught very much in a Japanese style.  Calling it Karate, Kung Fu, or Subak is appropriate in a sense, but fails to describe everything.


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy (Jan 25, 2004)

Like Mithios said. This brings back memories. I was in the same situation and I switched to another martial art before I despised martial arts in general and quit for good. I believe the teachers have more to do with a student's success than the martial art chosen. I live in a rural area and have fewer options for training.

I innitially chose SooBahkDo because it was close, eight miles away. The instructor put more inphasis on martial than art and taught by correcting rather than teaching. I stayed for four months and had a 50% chance of leaving class frustrated. We were discouraged from asking questions etc. We were expected to do more advanced combinations without knowing the individual moves. The best way to describe the class in general was sullen.

Unfortunately the result was disrespect for the instructor. I found out later from another adult that if I had started out in the children's class, like she did with her son, I would have been taught the basics. Imagine that, you have to be a kid to get the basics!

Again, it depends on the instructor. Fortunately, when traveling during those four months, I attended another SooBahkDo class. It was wonderful. It was obvious that the students were glad to be there and respected their instructor. And the instructor respected the students. I think I learned as much of the basics in those two classes than in all of the others combined.

Anyway I didn't need that kind of frustration at 43 years old. A friend that is a TKD black belt offered to work with me twice a week to teach me the basics. This too was wonderful. I later joined the dojang he goes to 30 miles away. No frustration.


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## Quick Sand (Jan 25, 2004)

pinacolada23x, I strongly suggest you try to find another club, class or Martial Arts style in your area. An instructor should always respect the students and they should respect him. You shouldn't have to feel bad when you're training.


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## Cruentus (Jan 25, 2004)

There is a difference between respect and idolotry, or instructor worship. Respect is mutual; the student respects the teacher, but the teacher also respects the student, even if it is a different kind of respect. It sounds like your not being respected as a student, so I say find a different school with better instructors.

btw...I don't smell a troll. TKD and TSD people often refer to what they train in by the generic term "Karate."


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## Ceicei (Jan 25, 2004)

If you are not bound in by a contract, I would suggest getting out and looking into a different school.  Perhaps another TSD school.  If you cannot find one that has a suitable instructor who would meet your training needs and where you would feel comfortable to be yourself, then look into a different style.

- Ceicei


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## Zepp (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *Umm. Is Tang Soo Do considered Karate? TSD is a Korean art. Karate refers to those of Japanese origin. Koreans hate the Japanese. Either you're using very general terms, which I doubt you would if you're a blue belt, or something's up. I smell a troll.
> *



Many of the Korean instructors who first brought Korean martial arts to North America originally referred their arts as "Korean Karate."  In some organizations, the name stuck.

pinacolada,
You don't need to take that kind of crap from your instructor.  I suggest moving on and finding a teacher who shows his students common decency.


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## pinacolada23x (Jan 25, 2004)

see, i would move to another school, but it's so hard to because the head instructors son has been my mentor for the last 3 years. i know he loves me to death and he cares for me a lot and he is the only reason i dont want to leave. he believes in me so much. but then again the instructors at that school are not very respectful. i would just leave but i love the son too much to. he is like my guardian angel. i know he is hard on me, but only to make me better. he isnt really so much the problem, its the other instructors. if i have to leave the school eventually because it gets too ridiculous, then i will, but can u think of any other solutions. i talk to the son today and he wants me to talk to him when i feel like this, but i know it is kinda impossible because he is my instructor. i'd rather make things work out, but i dunno. i do love it there, but sometimes things are just so ridiculous. i mean, the son took me out to breakfast and told me how much he cares about me and stuff, and doesnt want me to leave, and if i did he would be torn becuase he knows how good i am.  but so many other people have had problems with his father, and they told me in october i would test in march for my black belt. and they just told me last week i didnt have enough hours and i cant test even though i aced the pre test. how wrong is that. the thing is they dont want tot admit that, they thought i had enough hours and i think they just realized i did, and  they made a mistake. i dunno, "karate" as in "tang soo do" life is crazy. when i say kaarte it is just a general term for tang soo do. also, i work and go to school and am getting ready for college this year and i am always stressed out, and they never accept the fact that i am tired and never let me have a break and if i mess up they get mad at me for it, but i just have been working my butt off in school, and work, and for them and i dont think they realize it. but i know the son does. and some of the instrcutors give me strange looks when i act silly adnd playful , not in class, and they think its wrong. one time i got my nails done for prom, and i was so happy because it was my first prom and the first time in a long time i dressed compleetely liek a girl and i was so happy and excited for  jsyefl. and one of the instructors yelled at me for having long nails and made me unhappy about prom. i dunno, any comments to any of this? ahhhh!


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## Ceicei (Jan 25, 2004)

That's a lot of loyalty if you stay on just for one instructor in spite of the other instructors. Putting up with unhappiness for the sake of one is a lot to take.

You should explain *clearly* and *directly* to your instructor how you feel and how you are being treated.  Your instructor should be able to talk to the other instructors and have them take a second look at how they treat their students.  If you're not the only student they treat this way, then the school will be in danger of losing their students.

That said, if you've put up with it for the past three years already, then a few more months or a year more may not be too much to wait until you get your black belt.  You've invested a lot of time and money to get to where you are.  You can then move on to another style to cross train.  Many black belts do.

Only you can decide what is worth doing.  You can get out now for another TSD school, or stay in and put up a while longer.  You can choose to change to another style.  I would say being able to enjoy where you train is important.

- Ceicei


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## pinacolada23x (Jan 25, 2004)

now, i know this is going to sound crazy and all, but, do you think it's crazy for someone to feel like their in love with their karate instructor, when he is 10 years older, like 28 years old. i know someone who feels this way. and she is convinced he is her soulmate. even though he is her instructor and she is his student. she says she feels it in her, a powerful, comfroting feeling. what do you think?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pinacolada23x _
> *now, i know this is going to sound crazy and all, but, do you think it's crazy for someone to feel like their in love with their karate instructor, when he is 10 years older, like 28 years old. i know someone who feels this way. and she is convinced he is her soulmate. even though he is her instructor and she is his student. she says she feels it in her, a powerful, comfroting feeling. what do you think? *


Thats actualy natural. I feel the instructor should resist the temtation of a starstruck female student ten years his junior but it happens and if he makes a habbit of taking advantage of the situation, it sort of makes him a predator. Watch how he handles it and decide if he is on the make for yourself. On the other hand if that lady wants a relationship with her karate instructor, and she is of age, then that is her perogative. Perhaps you like her.

As for your original question, you are either right in the way you feel or you are having a hard time accepting criticism. Weigh the positives against the negatives, and make your choice. Take some Kenpo (ha ha)


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## Cruentus (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pinacolada23x _
> *.......... what do you think? *



Um...I think that this conversation has gotten a little creepy.


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## Ceicei (Jan 26, 2004)

Pinacolada23x,

Let's see what we have here....

You are a female and a high school student.  You have a favorite instructor who is a male, and he is the son of the head instructor.  He also is very nice to you and all the other instructors don't give you any respect.  You've worked with your favorite instructor for the past three years.

This situation does happen, probably more times than is admitted in many martial arts schools.  A good instructor works closely with his or her students.  It's not unusual for a student to really like the instructor because of that closeness and understanding.

Let's take a step back...

I'm not sure if the person you refer to who is in love with the instructor is yourself?  It could be a fellow student?  I may be wrong, but many times when a teenager says "a friend is going thru...." often actually is talking about him/herself.

Ok, let's see...  You are miserable for several reasons. 

One, you aren't enjoying your martial arts because of the other instructors being hard on you.  Two, the other instructors aren't letting you feel like you could enjoy your happy moments.  Three, you stay in that martial arts because you like (and possibly very much like) your instructor.  

If you are the girl who is in love with your instructor:
then Four, you probably feel like you can't have him yourself, even though you would like that to happen.  Five, you are a teenager and still examining what love is and what it all means.  There is a lot more than what you see about love.

If this is what is happening, what can you do about this?

Realize that the relationship between you and your instructor probably won't go anywhere (unless your instructor decides to pursue it, but DON'T count on it.  Many twenty-something instructors do enjoy being around younger students just because it is fun and reminds them of their youth).  If possible, keep your friendship with your instructor as just that, a friendship.

You only have a few more months left to work on getting your black belt.  Work on getting it and try to not dwell too much about how things are going between you and the instructors at your school.

You plan on going to college.  Focus.  Don't start a relationship now with anyone because college life will be a lot more fun if you aren't attached to anyone "from back home".  The college boys will be fun to hang around with once you get into college.

When you get to college, look into joining a martial arts club at school.  Another choice to consider is there are many martial arts schools that are either affliated with the college or very close by.  They will have many other students that are of your age range.  You probably will enjoy the martial arts more then.

Good luck!

- Ceicei


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## pinacolada23x (Jan 27, 2004)

Ceicei, you are a smart person. everything you said makes complete sense. i appreciate your help. im gonna try to go with the flow for now and see what happens. if things get worse i'll probably leave, if not, i'll keep training hard. thank you.


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## JoeJ (Jan 28, 2004)

I have quite a few years in myself (28), and you shouldn't be treated like that by the instructors.   Beginning to sound cultish...

As for calling TangSooDo Karate, well that's what most people think of MA.  Besides, do you know what the translation of "TangSoo" is in Japanese - "KaraTe".

Take care-


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## Makalakumu (Jan 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JoeJ _
> *Besides, do you know what the translation of "TangSoo" is in Japanese - "KaraTe".*



Good Point.  "China Hand"  They are the same.


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## pinacolada23x (Feb 1, 2004)

i have another question. in october of last year i was told, along with two other people, that i was eligible to test for my blackbelt. the next testing was in march of this year. my instructors had us hand in all of our paper work and everything for the region. we also had a pretest this past january, which one of my instructors said, that if i passed it, i was pretty much gold for going to the black belt tets in march. well i passed the written with a 91, and i passed everything on the physical. but, i only had 485 hours out of 600 needed in order to test. i just found this out. so i am not able to test. but not testing is the problem, it's that fact they led me to believe i was testing. don't you think they should have told me how many hours i had in october instead of letting me find out now? and they claim they knew i wouldnt be testing in march, but they even asked me to hand in a check for the testing along with my paperwork. if i wouldnt be testing until possibly october of this year, why would they want me to hand in a check almost 6-8 months early? i check can't be held for that long? it almost seems like they are trying to cover up the mistake that they just realized in january i did not have enough hours to test in march. and they claim they knew i wouldnt be testing and that they never said i would be in march. but then again, i had to work out with my black belt cooach every sunday morning for conditioning, and i had to fill out a journal every single day for some sort of training. and i also started helped one of my other instructors instruct a park and rec. class. doesn't that seem like to you i was preparing for march? they said they like to do the working out early, and then stop it so we can do it on our own. but i would rather work out like i did right before the testing, i dont want to work my butt off and then just stop it. what do you think may have happened, and who may be wrong in this situation, by what i ahve told you?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 1, 2004)

I think that you are training at a dojang where making money has been placed above training.  If they told you that you were going to test and had you pay the money and then checked your background and found out that you weren't going to test, they should have refunded your money.  Of course, they have done that to secure a committment from you.  485 hours out of 600 is quite a deficit.  It sounds like you still need to do some work.  My advice is stick it out.  Focus on the training.  You can have great technique and you can know all of the stuff, but that won't "make" you a black belt.  It's the time spent that counts.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 1, 2004)

600 - 485 = 115 hours.

October to January is at least three months or up to five. We will say four just for the average.

115 hours / four months = 28.75 hours. This is the number of hours per month you are short on your training time. You might have been on track to have this accomplished, yet, with the holidays in November and December, you may have missed a some time and not hit any extra time. This is a logical assumption for those who keep track of minimum time in hours.

There also could a variable number of other reasons. As you said you have a 91 on the written, I assume you saw the paperwork and that a 91 was at least above a minimum requirement to proceed. Noyou sau you ave the minimum physical requirements. Are these push-ups and sit-ups and running etc., ..., . Or are they actual techniques? If they are just cardio, and you have performed them, and can perform them at will then good. If they are techniques, then who said you passed that section? Was it one of the junior instructors? or the head instructor that makes the final decisions on who is presented for promotion?


Keep this in mind I do not know you, nor an I am saying this is you. I only bring it up so you may reflect up it yourself. No name calling or insults implied.

There is also an issue with attitude. Has your atttitude changed? Has it not increased? No one can truely answer these but you.

As to the check issue, the instructors could be eating and paying bills from the dues and testing fees they collect. If this is the case then having students prepared, ahead of time wiht a check guarentees that that the money will be there for them. As to holding the check, that all depends upon the person putting into the computer. If ti is submitted with a bunch of cash and other checks and a deposit slip, most likely the date is not being reviewed and the person entering the data has entered the current date as the transaction date for the electronic filling. Date a check for the exact day it is due to a company and then send it to them early enough for them to get it and have to hold it. They will process it. Many times electronically and your bank will pay them early or before the date on the check. So, it depends on the human when it is deposited.

Now if the instructors made a mistake, about your hours, and your skillis fine and proper, I personally might wave it if all other things lined up including attitude. Yet, this is me and not your instructors. They also may have confused you wiht someone else for the amount of hours and if this is the case they should admit it and apologize, in my mind. 

Not sure if this helps


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## Shinzu (Feb 2, 2004)

i practice and teach TSD myself.  what you say about your current school is not part of the TSD tradition but can be found at many MA schools around the globe.

it becomes a money thing and it clouds the judgement and teachings along with the credability of the art and school of which you are attending.

about 2 years ago, i had to "deal"  with a lot of abuse because i switched from shotokan to TSD.  i did for a while because i was blind to the fact that their are REAL schools out there that want to help and teach the art simply because they love it.

my instructor and i at the time had a great relationship, but it fell bitter when i left.  he took it personal when in fact it was the grandmaster that i was having the most trouble with.  for a grandmaster of such rank he showed little for his students, and more for the money.  i said goodbye.  why?  for me.  i was not getting what i should have out of it, and it was wasting my time.

point being that if your teacher was your "mentor" he would learn the first rule of respect.  those who do not possess respect can not possibly teach it.

if it were me, i would say my thanx and part ways.  go some where else and pick up where you left off.  even if you need to go down a step (which i have done also), in the long run it is worth it.

there are no short cuts in the MA and people that bog you down need to be left behind so that you may strive for bigger and better things!

good luck!


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## pinacolada23x (Feb 13, 2004)

i guess it all makes sense. thank you. tang soo do has changed my life so much. recently my karate instructor has started to disappear. He has just bought a house and he is searching for new things in life. He is still an instructor and he is still coming, but he will be in and out, not coming as often as he was. He has put so much into our school and now he is relaxing a little bit and trying to start a life. I'm happy for him. As a very close student of his I've always wanted to, not take his place, but when he would decide to start relaxing a little bit I've always wanted to like be the one to take on his role. It's a little hard to do that since I am only a Cho Dan Bo, but sooner or later I will do what he has done for me and everyone else, for others, the new students. Through all the issues I've been through with the school, all I really want to do most is be him, the next best instructor. Hopefully I can accomplish that because I've always wanted to, and I know he wants me to also, but he will always be the number one instructor, atleast to me. There is so much I want to do for that school, and I have so many ideas, but can I express any of them if I am only a Cho Dan Bo? Like I would like to hold some classes where I could help students with questions, or hold a meditating class, or even a class that concentrates on the spiritual side of Tang Soo Do. Do you think I could do that?


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