# Why multiculturalism will always fail?



## billc (Mar 27, 2011)

This article from Bigpeace.com tries to explain why multiculturalism will always fail. It is written by a European, so it is a different look at the issue.

http://bigpeace.com/nmay/2011/03/27/why-multiculturalism-will-always-fail/#more-98636

from the article:

For a society to succeed, its citizens must be able to unite around common core values. The most fundamental values are national identity and a wish for fellowship with one&#8217;s countrymen. National identity means that you feel like a Dane if you live in Denmark. Fellowship means that similarities &#8212; first of all the fact that you live in the same country &#8212; means more than differences, for example religion, color, or country of origin.


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## elder999 (Mar 27, 2011)

billcihak said:


> National identity means that you feel like a Dane if you live in Denmark. Fellowship means that similarities &#8212; first of all the fact that you live in the same country &#8212; means more than differences, for example religion, color, or country of origin.


 
Feeling like an American if you live in the U.S. means _embracing_ those differences of religion, color, and country of origin. It's why we have a First Amendment. We've *always been* a multicultural country: even before the Europeans arrived, there were wide and varied nations, languages and cultures. 

When we see successful immigrants in this country,their success is due to their being able to unite around American values while retaining the culture and traditions of their country of origin, and it has always been so.


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## billc (Mar 27, 2011)

But they actually have to like this country enough to want to be Americans.  That seems to not be happening lately.  Of course, for most immigrants coming here it is probably the case, but it is always that rowdy minority that is going to cause the problems.


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## elder999 (Mar 27, 2011)

It just doesn't apply, bill.

From the article:



> When people identify with a culture whose values are not rooted in the *nations indigenous culture,* this identification happens at the expense of identification with the greater community.


 
I'd submit that there truly is no "indigenous culture" in the U.S., or that very few people can identify with the _truly_ indigenous cultures here. 

Or, that what we identify as an "indigenous culture" is more of a set of core values and ethos that have as much to do with being able to identify with one's own origins as they do with things like "hard work, going to church, and playing baseball."

After all, what's more "American" than the St. Patrick's Day parade? Or a Cinco de Mayo celebration? Or Chinese New Year? Or a game of soccer?

Perhaps a game of lacrosse....:lol:


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## Ramirez (Mar 27, 2011)

This idea that multiculturalism will always fail seems to ignore that multiculturalism provided one of history's greatest achievements.  

 A driving factor in the Renaissance was the mixing of cultures,  classical knowledge  was brought back to Europe by Arabs who had preserved it and translated for Europeans by Jews. 

 What we call the Arabic numeral system is in fact Indian which was also brought into Europe by Arabs.

  And how about the chinese science that provided things like the compass and gunpowder, another success of cultural mixing?



 Without that mixing of cultures we might still be scratching our lice infested clothes living in a feudal state.


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## elder999 (Mar 27, 2011)

elder999 said:


> It?
> 
> Perhaps a game of lacrosse....:lol:


 
Or, as a friend posted on Facebook:



> so what is this Irish Lass doing on Sunday - Making the _*meatballs and sauce*_ to go play_* Mahjong*_ with my *meshpucha!!! Oy!*!!!


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## Ramirez (Mar 27, 2011)

Will someone please explain to me by what criteria you would choose immigrants to avoid this bete noir called multiculturalism?   Is it only European immigrants that you would allow?  Only Christian?  Only English speaking? 

 What about English speaking South Asians from Britain?  Are they okay or is it only white British we allow so the South Asians don't bring any of those insidious multicultural curry dishes with them?

 Do we force them to convert to Christianity if they aren't already?  Well who gets recruiting rights, the Catholics, the Protestants,  the Jehovah's Witnesses,  should we do like professional sports and have a draft?

  A bit odd explaining that to the Asians,  South Asians, Jews already in North America?

How about the Chinese?  Perhaps we should put a head tax on them again,  then again the way the global economy is going,  we might be the ones trying to immigrate and they will be talking about preventing multiculturalism in China.

 My guess is 120 years ago , the Irish Catholics would have been considered a dangerous multicultural invasions

 600 years ago....well


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## K-man (Mar 27, 2011)

I can feel an interesting discussion coming on similar to a previous thread.

Bill, if you are in agreement with the article, then I'm on your team. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Interesting to read some of the comments below the quoted article.

For example:


> Multiculturalism to include Islamists will never work in the west because it doesn't even work in the Middle East, and when immigrants from that region show up on our shores, they bring with them no/no desire to tolerate others' cultures.
> 
> Sunnis and Shi'a on the Arabian peninsula, Wahhabis and secular Turks, Muslims, Copts and Jews in Egypt have never gotten along and are kept in line, only slightly and tenuously removed from the ever-present threat of conflict simmering just below the surface, by the heavy hand of totalitarianism.
> 
> ...


 
Apart from the last sentence and the reference to only wanting money, I think the response is right on the mark. :asian:


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## granfire (Mar 27, 2011)

In another 400 years or so some experts predict thee will be no such thing as race anymore, we will all be some sort of Latte colored with slightly slanted eyes.

And thanks to improved travel, both physical as well as virtual, I suppose the cultural differences will die out as well.


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## Ramirez (Mar 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> In another 400 years or so some experts predict thee will be no such thing as race anymore, we will all be some sort of Latte colored with slightly slanted eyes.
> 
> And thanks to improved travel, both physical as well as virtual, I suppose the cultural differences will die out as well.



 without the various events that caused the mixing of the various peoples from across the globe (the Crusades,  mass immigration due to faster transport etc.) we could all be a bunch of inbred idiots.


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## granfire (Mar 27, 2011)

Ramirez said:


> without the various events that caused the mixing of the various peoples from across the globe (the Crusades,  mass immigration due to faster transport etc.) we could all be a bunch of inbred idiots.



This way at least some had a chance! ^_^


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## Omar B (Mar 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> In another 400 years or so some experts predict thee will be no such thing as race anymore, we will all be some sort of Latte colored with slightly slanted eyes.
> And thanks to improved travel, both physical as well as virtual, I suppose the cultural differences will die out as well.



Sexy.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 27, 2011)

:chuckles:  I guess those of us who like red-heads with big, green, eyes and peaches and cream complections are out of luck then .

Booo!  You can stick this multiculturalism in that case  :lol:.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 27, 2011)

A more serious response is that I do sincerely think there is a problem that has been brewing for quite some time now when it comes to what might be termed 'hostile' immigration.

We've been over it a few times before so I won't go on about it but when the permanent 'guests' are determined to change your 'house rules' to suit them then the hotel is in trouble.


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## Omar B (Mar 27, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> :chuckles:  I guess those of us who like red-heads with big, green, eyes and peaches and cream complections are out of luck then .
> 
> Booo!  You can stick this multiculturalism in that case  :lol:.



Yet another reason we never made it down the alter, she was seeing you!

But really, you just discribed my college/post college ex fiance pretty well in broad strokes.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 27, 2011)

:grins:  Sorry, mate .


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## Rayban (Mar 27, 2011)

We recently had a so called "multicultural harmony day" at work which I decided not to participate in.  I was then asked a very odd question.

"are you racist?"

I thought about this for a second and replied "much less than you"

I went on to explain that I believe making a national day or a work day themed multicultural is itself a little racist.  I tend not to see the racial differences in people, just personalities and, dare I say, intelligence.  I think making a day to recognize that we are different is just as bigoted as being a racist.  Its like a day to alleviate guilt for those that see people as different.

Once I made this point 4 other people didn't turn up for this day.

Australia especially has this sort of unachievable doctrine to be a multicultural country.  But the powers that be keep making the distinctions between races by having these tollerance days and ethnic events and so forth.

Can't they just can it and look past the skin? or religion?


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## granfire (Mar 27, 2011)

Rayban said:


> We recently had a so called "multicultural harmony day" at work which I decided not to participate in.  I was then asked a very odd question.
> 
> "are you racist?"
> 
> ...



No they can't.

because that puts them out of a cushy job.


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## billc (Mar 27, 2011)

I would say that st. patrick's day, chinese new year and other celebrations are superficial differences. The core values would be fighting for indiidual rights, the rule of the american legal system, seeing oneself as American over ancestral identity, things like that. If you asked someone who celebrates St. Patricks day, they probably wouldn't identify themselves as a citizen of Ireland. the same for descendants of chinese immigrants during the chinese new years celebration. In another post there was an allegation that students in one of the border states self identified as mexican citizens over being americans. Much of that was due in the article to their being illegal immigrants. That kind of multiculturalism is the damaging kind. That is where I think the most problems come from. They also talked about, allegedly, taking back texas and california. I don't think someone who thinks of themselves as American, would think of giving texas and california back to mexico.

not to just single out immigrants, legal or otherwise from mexico, the desire to change the american system to sharia compliance is another problem, and the treatment of women in the muslim culture would probably be another area where the problem originates.  If an immigrant from russia comes over, they usually are not looking to change the american legal system and tend to be closer to american values on women and individual rights.  I know of several women from Japan, who have come here as students and don't want to go back to Japan because of the freedom they see for women here.  It is not just as a woman, but the freedom of the individual here in America over the conformity in the Japanese culture.  they are ready to take on the real values of American society even if they celebrate traditional japanese holidays or customs.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Mar 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> In another 400 years or so some experts predict thee will be no such thing as race anymore, we will all be some sort of Latte colored with slightly slanted eyes.
> 
> And thanks to improved travel, both physical as well as virtual, I suppose the cultural differences will die out as well.


 
Call me a cynic, but I believe that, even then, we will find some other distinctions with which to categorize, polarize, and distinguish ourselves from each other.  When race is gone, more or less, humanity will still divide itself by some other standard, be it socioeconmics, region, or perhaps even political ideology.


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## granfire (Mar 28, 2011)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> Call me a cynic, but I believe that, even then, we will find some other distinctions with which to categorize, polarize, and distinguish ourselves from each other.  When race is gone, more or less, humanity will still divide itself by some other standard, be it socioeconmics, region, or perhaps even political ideology.



Considering we can't be peaceful within a family of the same race and religion and cultural background, I take that as a given.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2011)

elder999 said:


> It just doesn't apply, bill.
> 
> From the article:
> 
> ...


 
yup

Once worked with a woman from Germany who thought us Americans were pretty funny because it seemed that every time when asked an American &#8220;what are you&#8221; she got a lineage list that was based on origin of family, Germany, Ireland, England, Russia, etc. But she rarely got any that simple answered &#8220;America&#8221; California, Florida, Chicago, NYC, Dallas. She also said she only get this in America&#8230;. Ask a German and their German ask as Russian and their Russian ask a Chinese person and their Chinese as an Indian and their Indian&#8230;. What&#8217;s that tell you 

Now I must dash for Genmai Cha and Paczki ... only in America


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## Ramirez (Mar 28, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I would say that st. patrick's day, chinese new year and other celebrations are superficial differences. The core values would be fighting for indiidual rights, the rule of the american legal system, seeing oneself as American over ancestral identity, things like that. If you asked someone who celebrates St. Patricks day, they probably wouldn't identify themselves as a citizen of Ireland. the same for descendants of chinese immigrants during the chinese new years celebration. In another post there was an allegation that students in one of the border states self identified as mexican citizens over being americans. Much of that was due in the article to their being illegal immigrants. That kind of multiculturalism is the damaging kind. That is where I think the most problems come from. They also talked about, allegedly, taking back texas and california. I don't think someone who thinks of themselves as American, would think of giving texas and california back to mexico.
> 
> not to just single out immigrants, legal or otherwise from mexico, the desire to change the american system to sharia compliance is another problem, and the treatment of women in the muslim culture would probably be another area where the problem originates.  If an immigrant from russia comes over, they usually are not looking to change the american legal system and tend to be closer to american values on women and individual rights.  I know of several women from Japan, who have come here as students and don't want to go back to Japan because of the freedom they see for women here.  It is not just as a woman, but the freedom of the individual here in America over the conformity in the Japanese culture.  they are ready to take on the real values of American society even if they celebrate traditional japanese holidays or customs.



 so you really don't have a problem with Chinese festivals, sushi bars, greek food,  curries, Hindus, Sikhs etc.

 What you have a problem with is illegal immigration and radical Islam. Then just say so otherwise you paint all ethnicities with a broad brush.


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## granfire (Mar 28, 2011)

Ramirez said:


> so you really don't have a problem with Chinese festivals, sushi bars, greek food,  curries, Hindus, Sikhs etc.
> 
> What you have a problem with is illegal immigration and radical Islam. Then just say so otherwise you paint all ethnicities with a broad brush.



He's a party animal: Today he's Irish, tomorrow (legal) Mexican, I hear Dewali puts on a good spread, so we go, what, Hindu?


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## Ramirez (Mar 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> He's a party animal: Today he's Irish, tomorrow (legal) Mexican, I hear Dewali puts on a good spread, so we go, what, Hindu?



 yeah I could use a good curry,  or how about Caribbean and a goat roti?


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## granfire (Mar 28, 2011)

Ramirez said:


> yeah I could use a good curry,  or how about Caribbean and a goat roti?



dunno, never had any. (but I hear Caribbean involves jerk...:uhohh


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## elder999 (Mar 28, 2011)

Ramirez said:
			
		

> yeah I could use a good curry, or how about Caribbean and a goat roti?


 
I do kickass curries, Mark. Now I know what's on the menu if you ever make it to New Mexico....:lol:



granfire said:


> dunno, never had any. (but I hear Caribbean involves jerk...:uhohh


 
Caribbean covers a wide variety. "Jerk," while no longer exclusive to Jamaica, refers to the spices used in the marinade or dry rub, as well as the method of cooking:

Jerk

Also one of my specialties, Gran, so if you ever make it to New Mexico....:lol: (I'll even wrangle up some pimento wood, and do it in my smoker....)



			
				bill said:
			
		

> I would say that st. patrick's day, chinese new year and other celebrations are superficial differences. The core values would be fighting for indiidual rights, the rule of the american legal system, seeing oneself as American over ancestral identity, things like that. If you asked someone who celebrates St. Patricks day, they probably wouldn't identify themselves as a citizen of Ireland. the same for descendants of chinese immigrants during the chinese new years celebration. In another post there was an allegation that students in one of the border states self identified as mexican citizens over being americans. Much of that was due in the article to their being illegal immigrants. That kind of multiculturalism is the damaging kind. That is where I think the most problems come from. They also talked about, allegedly, taking back texas and california. I don't think someone who thinks of themselves as American, would think of giving texas and california back to mexico.
> 
> not to just single out immigrants, legal or otherwise from mexico, the desire to change the american system to sharia compliance is another problem, and the treatment of women in the muslim culture would probably be another area where the problem originates. If an immigrant from russia comes over, they usually are not looking to change the american legal system and tend to be closer to american values on women and individual rights.


 
1) Who is it that wants to "change the American system to Sharia" besides, maybe, those terrorists who envision a worldwide Caliphate.

They're crazy, you know, and mostly live in caves, though no doubt there are a few here.

Maybe even in Dearborn, where we've had a huge Arab-American,Muslim community for decades (as well as Maronite and Chaldean Christians, but hey...). In the meantime,. though, most of them are Americanized or assimilated to varying degrees, and live their lives peacefully, and normally, with no intention of imposing Sharia on anyone, except perhaps those who agree to it in civil cases, which is only a fair practice in this country.

I mean, what do you want them to do, start eating pork? :lol:



			
				bill said:
			
		

> I know of several women from Japan, who have come here as students and don't want to go back to Japan because of the freedom they see for women here. It is not just as a woman, but the freedom of the individual here in America over the conformity in the Japanese culture. they are ready to take on the real values of American society even if they celebrate traditional japanese holidays or customs.


 

On the other hand, here we have the freedom to conform as well. WHile your misgivings about the treatment of women in those cultures may be well founded, they don't apply to you, and you have no frame of reference for them. You see a woman in a burkha and think that it's terrible that men require her to be covered from head to toe, and don't think for one minute that _maybe she wants to be._

2) The article doesn't apply-it's written from the point of view of someone who's nation has much more racial homogeneity than ours. In fact, even those Germans, Swedes, Nords, Finns-hell, even most of the French and British-that live in Denmark have more in common with the native populace than those brown, different clothes wearing, different food eating, different rules for living _immigrants_ do.


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## granfire (Mar 28, 2011)

I throw in some Knoedel, not sure how they go with jerk tho  (being a smartalec, cos I knew what jerk was)


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