# Healthy Training (rant)



## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Healthy training to me means training in an environment that is based around learning and having fun. While just about everyone will claim this I think that it is rarely the case, more often the environment is based around ego's and image.

 First and foremost there should be no ranks, no belts, no colored t-shirts, nothing. Everyone is equal from the point of view of a outsider looking at everyone standing in a line. People should train for themselves, not to impress someone enough for them to give them a colored belt.

But more importantly a rank system inhibits growth. If a black belt is working with a Blue belt, suddenly that blue belt might feel this is his chance to prove something, to beat a black belt. The black is likely to feel this and feel he has to defend his position. Rather then experimenting and learning we are both now in competitive mode. One making sure he doesn't loose his image, the other trying to beat a black belt.

Not only is this bad for experimenting and learning, it is also dangerous. They might get caught and try to fight their way out instead of tap, or they might slap something on too quickly in a spastic effort to get something. If they are throwing punches they might start throwing hard to make a point.

Strip those belts away, make everyone equal.  Get rid of that desire to beat a black belt by getting rid of the black belt.

Next we need to own the information that we learn, everything from everywhere, as long as we can make it work it is ours. I don't care if you learnt a technique from Prof. Kano himself or from some no name person posting it on the Internet, if you can make it work and show me how to I want it. 

I don't care what rank you are, I don't care who you trained under, I don't care what style. That is all distraction, it means nothing. It is no more important to me then who taught you how to skate is to a pick up game of hockey. All I care about is what you can do, and what you can share.

Sharing being a key word in there. Training is about sharing. Usually the most experienced person does most of the sharing, as things should be. They share techniques and ideas and help coach everyone else through them. The ones that have more experience help coach those with less. People with ideas from outside should be free to bring them up and share as well. When a contradiction comes up things get tested on the mat and everyone takes the way that works best for them.

This is the way things are naturally learned. Look at grass roots sports, like skateboarding. A group of kids get together in a skate park, or really anywhere, and they train. They experiment, the more experienced ones pass on tips to the newer ones, and some really amazing skills can come out of this by the dedicated skaters. If skateboarding frightens you and you wish those young punks would go take piano lessons, choose another grass roots sport... of course you'll probably feel the same about those as well...

 And finally I want to look at motivation, which is a unique one to martial arts. Seems many people say they train solely for self-defence, in case they ever really need it. Now for some people that might be true, I'm sure some police officers, security guards, bouncers, etc. are training solely for work related purposes. Most of us however, don't.

I am very much against the idea of training in case someone randomly decides to attack you. If you have a reason to believe you are a target that is one thing, but for most people the chances of a random violent assault is pretty small. people don't just suddenly jump strangers and start beating them with there empty hands.

 Believing that they do is bordering on paranoia.  And the tin foil hat school of martial arts is just not for me.

I do this because I love it. I do it for the same reason some people play baketball, or football. I do it for the same reason some people build model air planes or build model airplanes. I do it because everytime I get on the mat and face off against someone, whether they are 5 years old on there first day or 25 and been doing it for years I have fun.

I'm not trying to preserve anything, but if someone that is has something I can borrow I will. I'm not trying to get certificates for my wall and ranks to brag about, and if you must know I was trained by a tribe of ninja penguins in a secret cave near the south pole. I figure that is about as useful as anything to you, so I'll stick with it. No, I don't care who you trained with. Nor who your certificate says you gave your money too and how many times. Eye gouges and ripping testicles off are really not a major concern as anyone that would do that I don't want to train with, but if you're curious I'm willing to suit up with cups and safety goggles and see if it is possible. If you tell me your magic stance will prevent you from being taken down, or you can shoot chi balls that will knock me down from across the room I'm gonna call BS. Because it is, and no one that trains live and honestly will make claims like that. If you think otherwise find some good people, from outside your circle, and test that theory.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 26, 2005)

I would say you have some valid points here.  Rank and ego and magic stances and chi balls often go hand in hand in the MA.  It does get tedious.  Sometimes I want to throw a lot of that stuff away.  Just my word of agreement here.


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## arnisador (Oct 26, 2005)

Good rant. I'm not in 100% agreement, but I know where you're coming from. I know I like it when I get to go in somewhere _sans_ belt.

Like so many things, the black belt seems like a huge deal until you get it. After that, it doesn't seem so important--and can even get in the way.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 26, 2005)

What I find really objectionable it the sense of entitlement when it comes to high rank.  I am not necessarily against rank, but I think it gets tremendously abused.

Seems like everyone who trains for 30 years or so decides that they deserve to be 10th degree.  Maybe after 30 years he is really good, but 10th degree?  come on, man!  that's nuts.

There is this crazy sense of entitlement that people have wherein they think that as long as they keep training (or at least have some marginal connection to the martial arts) that they expect a new promotion every once in a while.  I think this is an absurd expectation. If they don't have a teacher to promote them, then they form a new organization and promote themselves, or else get a group of friends together to form an association and promote each other.

And then there are all these "new" styles, with a new grandmaster.  Just because you study several systems and ultimately take from each system what works best for you, doesn't mean you have created anything new.  And it doesn't make you a grandmaster, or 10th degree, or any of that junk.

And high rank is given out like door prizes in some schools.  I saw one website that listed short bio info about the students and members of their school.  This clown (a 10th degree grandmaster of his own style, no less), had a pack of 18 year-old, 4th degree black belts.  What a circus that place must be!

We all know that rank doesn't mean nearly as much as the general public thinks it means.  But by virtue of the fact that it exists, it has to mean something.  Instead, it becomes more and more meaningless when you can't shake a tree without being showered by 10th degrees.  I even know of a system that has started using up to 15th degree.  they actually claim it is just sublevels of 10th, but then I have seen practitioners who claim to be as high as 15th, so there it is.  Why not up the ante, and start using 20, or 50?  it's all just ego, in my opinion.  Just like Nigel's amp in Spinaltap:  "this one goes up to eleven.  It's one louder."

Any rank above 5th degree should be really rare.  and 8th thru 10th should be almost unheard of.  I would like to see some integrity brought back into the ranking systems, and see a return to reality.

there is my rant, sort of in the same spirit as Andrew's.


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## Marvin (Oct 26, 2005)

Good points on a topic near and dear to my heart. Will add my 2c after dinner.


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## Marvin (Oct 27, 2005)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Good points on a topic near and dear to my heart. Will add my 2c after dinner.


It's not the belt itself; it's the baggage that goes with it. How many of us remember the first time we went to a MA class and saw the "sensei","sifu","guro", "arjan "pendakar", "miestre", "master" etc. as a mythic figure? How you couldn't wait to get your first rank, so you could be one of the "in crowd"! Then someone could bow to you! I have seen, as Im sure you all have how rank can make some people lose their minds. I had a friend in the martial arts once tell me I wont train with someone if they are not a black belt!  Another story When I was training in a traditional Japanese art, we had to run outside and bow as the instructor was driven into the parking lot and stay in the bowed position until he went inside! What the heck?!?!
One thing about belts is that they are awarded for different reasons. There are many reasons to train in the martial arts; self defense is only one of them. In my gym and all the people that I train with who do give rank do so based on only performance, good, bad, or otherwise. Is that the only way to give rank? I dont know, but I feel it is the most honest and healthy way. If rank is simply an indication of your job at the gym, then it becomes a lot less weird. I roll/spar with everyone in our club, no one is unapproachable. I use the same changing room and all the folks call me by my first name. 
For those of us that have gone to college, remember the Professor that said I am Dr. Suchandsuch, you will address me as Dr. and then the prof would go on to say they were not here to help you there were hired for their ability to do research, how tough the course was etc, any questions ask the lab instructor or TA. Conversely, there was also this Professor; Hi my name is Cheryl, my office hours are bla-bla, my e-mail is Bla@bla, and if my home # is Bla-Blaa. Dont hesitate to call; we have a lot of material to cover this semester.
Which course did you do better in?
But maybe Ive been lucky as well? Most of my martial arts instructors have all been down to earth people that were interested in finding out the truth in fighting.


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## shesulsa (Oct 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Like so many things, the black belt seems like a huge deal until you get it. After that, it doesn't seem so important--and can even get in the way.


So true.

Some of the benefits I've noticed in dealing with ranking is that there is a sense of responsiblity that comes with black rank.  I don't look at it as an achievement, really - funny eh?  I think of it as a path and I'm still a new black belt (coming up on one year soon) and I feel as though I just walked past some marker where the path is new and more difficult and challenging and parts of it wind back to the older path where you can guide and nudge in places where I was guided and nudged.  It's a tad bit trepiditious and not something to be taken lightly.

It can get in the way when all you wanna do is just train and share, and getting bowed to can be embarassing and tedious after a while (part of the challenge).

I humbly think black rank specifically is not a destination, rather a path.  But the nature of reaching this point and wearing some demarcation of one's journey can be a healthy one and in my opinion, it's all in the teaching.

More later.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 27, 2005)

I view my belt more as like a roadmarker along a path; it just lets me know how far I've come.

Even as a yellow belt I was sparring all sorts of ranks; I regularly spar against my instructor, a black belt, and I've sparred others. At least in training.  I've never felt the urge to try to prove myself by beating up on a black belt, because I couldn't...I definitely feel like a mouse in a game of cat and mouse.  The cat is just playing with the mouse and the mouse can do it's best but if the cat really wanted to, it would be over in a hurry.  I get that feeling, sparring aginst black belts, like they are working with me and responding to my level of skill and my level of attack, but watching how they move, etc...leaves no doubt in my mind that if we were really going for points that matter, or worse, then it would be over very quicly and very painfully (for me).  But, the attitude I've gotten from sparring black belts has not been one of arrogance or desire to prove themselves or anything.  It's training, and sparring against black belts is great training, I've found, sparring against anyone much better then you can be very valuable, as long as everyone approaches it from a mindset of 'this is training, this is learning', which is the mindset I've usually found.


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## shesulsa (Oct 27, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Healthy training to me means training in an environment that is based around learning and having fun. While just about everyone will claim this I think that it is rarely the case, more often the environment is based around ego's and image.


That may be, however, dealing with egos and image is a part of training and part of life. If these issues don't come up, they cannot be dealt with in a holistic training sense.



> First and foremost there should be no ranks, no belts, no colored t-shirts, nothing. Everyone is equal from the point of view of a outsider looking at everyone standing in a line. People should train for themselves, not to impress someone enough for them to give them a colored belt.


If a student is training to do nothing but achieve rank, it is usually obvious and is a situation a teacher needs to adress.  Rank is not about power-over.



> But more importantly a rank system inhibits growth. If a black belt is working with a Blue belt, suddenly that blue belt might feel this is his chance to prove something, to beat a black belt. The black is likely to feel this and feel he has to defend his position. Rather then experimenting and learning we are both now in competitive mode. One making sure he doesn't loose his image, the other trying to beat a black belt.
> 
> Not only is this bad for experimenting and learning, it is also dangerous. They might get caught and try to fight their way out instead of tap, or they might slap something on too quickly in a spastic effort to get something. If they are throwing punches they might start throwing hard to make a point.


While this is a potential situation it is not limited to ranked venues nor necessarily caused by rank differences, rather bad attitudes and unchecked students.  A student who wants to prove himself by trying to beat a higher rank for whatever reason needs some instructional attention and a teacher who can't handle that probably shouldn't be teaching.



> Strip those belts away, make everyone equal. Get rid of that desire to beat a black belt by getting rid of the black belt.


I don't think getting rid of the belt is what achieves this.



> Next we need to own the information that we learn, everything from everywhere, as long as we can make it work it is ours. I don't care if you learnt a technique from Prof. Kano himself or from some no name person posting it on the Internet, if you can make it work and show me how to I want it.


While your point is quite valid, and just to play devil's advocate - what if Prof. Kano knows nuances to make the technique work better or more universally?



> I don't care what rank you are, I don't care who you trained under, I don't care what style. That is all distraction, it means nothing. It is no more important to me then who taught you how to skate is to a pick up game of hockey. All I care about is what you can do, and what you can share.


hmmm ... I worry about your statement in that higher black ranks only have the value to show a student "things" rather than the "how to" or the tweaks or the attitude behind actions.  More seasoned teachers have much, much more to share than a tick list of items required for a happy new color.



> Sharing being a key word in there. Training is about sharing. Usually the most experienced person does most of the sharing, as things should be. They share techniques and ideas and help coach everyone else through them. The ones that have more experience help coach those with less. People with ideas from outside should be free to bring them up and share as well. When a contradiction comes up things get tested on the mat and everyone takes the way that works best for them.


This is a coaching situation - a teaching situation involves much, much more.



> This is the way things are naturally learned. Look at grass roots sports, like skateboarding. A group of kids get together in a skate park, or really anywhere, and they train. They experiment, the more experienced ones pass on tips to the newer ones, and some really amazing skills can come out of this by the dedicated skaters. If skateboarding frightens you and you wish those young punks would go take piano lessons, choose another grass roots sport... of course you'll probably feel the same about those as well...


This is where a handful of people who have limited training in martial arts and some raw ability invent their own styles after achieving 1st dan (and sometimes even questionably that).



> And finally I want to look at motivation, which is a unique one to martial arts. Seems many people say they train solely for self-defence, in case they ever really need it. Now for some people that might be true, I'm sure some police officers, security guards, bouncers, etc. are training solely for work related purposes. Most of us however, don't.
> 
> I am very much against the idea of training in case someone randomly decides to attack you. If you have a reason to believe you are a target that is one thing, but for most people the chances of a random violent assault is pretty small. people don't just suddenly jump strangers and start beating them with there empty hands.
> 
> Believing that they do is bordering on paranoia.  And the tin foil hat school of martial arts is just not for me.


Wow.  You need to spend some time in Los Angeles or New York or Chicago.  Or in any other town where drunk Marines get their jollies beating bystanders to a pulp just to see if they can.  Or dress in drag and go shopping at nighttime.  People do get mugged, people do get beaten and, apparently some of us are bigger targets than others.



> I do this because I love it. I do it for the same reason some people play baketball, or football. I do it for the same reason some people build model air planes or build model airplanes. I do it because everytime I get on the mat and face off against someone, whether they are 5 years old on there first day or 25 and been doing it for years I have fun.
> 
> I'm not trying to preserve anything, but if someone that is has something I can borrow I will. I'm not trying to get certificates for my wall and ranks to brag about, and if you must know I was trained by a tribe of ninja penguins in a secret cave near the south pole. I figure that is about as useful as anything to you, so I'll stick with it. No, I don't care who you trained with. Nor who your certificate says you gave your money too and how many times. Eye gouges and ripping testicles off are really not a major concern as anyone that would do that I don't want to train with, but if you're curious I'm willing to suit up with cups and safety goggles and see if it is possible. If you tell me your magic stance will prevent you from being taken down, or you can shoot chi balls that will knock me down from across the room I'm gonna call BS. Because it is, and no one that trains live and honestly will make claims like that. If you think otherwise find some good people, from outside your circle, and test that theory.


This is funny and cute and ... well, I just chuckled at the chi balls and penguin things!  So you guys train in Tuxedos, right?

Seriously I think sharing is the shnizzle.  Teaching is different.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 27, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> While this is a potential situation it is not limited to ranked venues nor necessarily caused by rank differences, rather bad attitudes and unchecked students. A student who wants to prove himself by trying to beat a higher rank for whatever reason needs some instructional attention and a teacher who can't handle that probably shouldn't be teaching.



No, I think that it is a natural human tendency, which increase if the instructor is well known.  How many people can honestly say if they had a chance to go against Royce Gracie there wouldn't be some part of them going "This is your chance, get 'em!"

Martial arts coaches can teach martial arts, and can influence character traits to a limited extent, but only Ashida Kim and his Mind control techniques can completely alter a persons personality like that. 




> I don't think getting rid of the belt is what achieves this.



No, not completely.  Just as if you stop pooring gas on a fire it won't go out.  But it's a step in the right direction, that when combined with other things adds up to a bigger step.  However, same as above, we can't hope to completely change a persons nature, just minimize certain aspects as they relate to training.



> While your point is quite valid, and just to play devil's advocate - what if Prof. Kano knows nuances to make the technique work better or more universally?



And the flip side of that is that perhaps you learn more of books and videos as the explanations are more detailed, you have multiple perspectives and they are written by people with English as their primary language.

I understand your point, I just don't think it applies to what I was trying to say.




> Wow. You need to spend some time in Los Angeles or New York or Chicago. Or in any other town where drunk Marines get their jollies beating bystanders to a pulp just to see if they can. Or dress in drag and go shopping at nighttime. People do get mugged, people do get beaten and, apparently some of us are bigger targets than others.



I most certainly do not, I'm a happy Canadian.  I like my pet beavers and moose, I finally got my igloo the way I like it and it is much to warm for Penguin Ninjitsu practice down there 

Although... A penguin in drag... Evening gown?  that's a odd image...



> This is funny and cute and ... well, I just chuckled at the chi balls and penguin things!  So you guys train in Tuxedos, right?



Just a reminder that the sig line is their, don't want anyone to ever take what I say to seriously


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I view my belt more as like a roadmarker along a path; it just lets me know how far I've come.
> 
> Even as a yellow belt I was sparring all sorts of ranks; I regularly spar against my instructor, a black belt, and I've sparred others. At least in training. I've never felt the urge to try to prove myself by beating up on a black belt, because I couldn't...I definitely feel like a mouse in a game of cat and mouse. The cat is just playing with the mouse and the mouse can do it's best but if the cat really wanted to, it would be over in a hurry. I get that feeling, sparring aginst black belts, like they are working with me and responding to my level of skill and my level of attack, but watching how they move, etc...leaves no doubt in my mind that if we were really going for points that matter, or worse, then it would be over very quicly and very painfully (for me). But, the attitude I've gotten from sparring black belts has not been one of arrogance or desire to prove themselves or anything. It's training, and sparring against black belts is great training, I've found, sparring against anyone much better then you can be very valuable, as long as everyone approaches it from a mindset of 'this is training, this is learning', which is the mindset I've usually found.


 
I think you have a healthy situation going on.  stay with it!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> How many people can honestly say if they had a chance to go against Royce Gracie there wouldn't be some part of them going "This is your chance, get 'em!"


 
I don't think I would feel this way.  I have a pretty realistic understanding of my ability, and I know when I am gonna get killed.  

My main problem with the Gracies is that I think they allowed their ego to grow too big and I think this caused them to act somewhat shamefully in a few cases.  I remember several years ago, Royce had a column in BlackBelt Magazine.  In this particular issue, he issued a standing challenge to Mike Tyson to have a match and find out which one was better.  I thought the whole thing was tacky and rediculous and pointless to begin with, but what really did it for me was how arrogant and insulting his posturing was.  it was really shameful and disgusting self-glory.

That being said, I would never get in a ring with him, or someone from their clan.  I may not respect them because I don't think they have acted in a way to earn respect, but I do know when I am hopelessly outmatched.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 27, 2005)

Challenging the top boxing champ is a Gracie tradition, they've been doing it for many years.

It is an empty challenge, no top boxer would ever do it.  Nothing to gain, the money wouldn't be worth it, and a whole lot too loose.  Even if they wanted to the Boxing bigwigs would try to stop it.

Unfortunately the way things work is make enough noise and people will listen.  Which is why I would imagine every high school's boys changerooms reak of Axe....


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## Tgace (Oct 27, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> If a student is training to do nothing but achieve rank, it is usually obvious and is a situation a teacher needs to adress.  *Rank is not about power-over.*



Oh, but I think many times it is. How often can a guy get people to bow to him? Call him "master"? How often is the "average joe" in a place to tell people what to do and what is being done right or wrong? For some people, the tighter they tie that belt, the larger their heads become. Not all people. But for many of the insecure, otherwise socially inept people, its POWER. And you know the sayings about power.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Oh, but I think many times it is. How often can a guy get people to bow to him? Call him "master"? How often is the "average joe" in a place to tell people what to do and what is being done right or wrong? For some people, the tighter they tie that belt, the larger their heads become. Not all people. But for many of the insecure, otherwise socially inept people, its POWER. And you know the sayings about power.


 
Dead-on.  I think this is what I was getting at with my rant earlier in the thread.  thanks for summing it all up and making it clear and open.


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## arnisador (Oct 28, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Challenging the top boxing champ is a Gracie tradition, they've been doing it for many years.
> 
> It is an empty challenge, no top boxer would ever do it. Nothing to gain, the money wouldn't be worth it, and a whole lot too loose.



As indicated in Rocky III, where there is a "staged" match between Rocky and Thunderlips (Hulk Hogan). No upside for the boxer.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't get it.  Are you going to play by the boxers rules or the bjjers rules?  Any boxer getting into a ring with bjj rules against a practioner of the art is going to get killed, and vice versa.  Why would anyone bother?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 29, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I don't get it. Are you going to play by the boxers rules or the bjjers rules? Any boxer getting into a ring with bjj rules against a practioner of the art is going to get killed, and vice versa. Why would anyone bother?



The idea is "No Rules", not Sport JJ, but Vale Tudo fight like the first few UFC's.


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## arnisador (Oct 29, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I don't get it. Are you going to play by the boxers rules or the bjjers rules? Any boxer getting into a ring with bjj rules against a practioner of the art is going to get killed, and vice versa. Why would anyone bother?



Yup. As for anything goes--we (nearly) have that with the UFC and all its variants. No big-name boxers are stepping up for the relatively small prizes offered.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't know why in the world any boxer would except that challenge.  Boxers compete by a very specific set of rules and work hard to excel in those rules.  To fight someone  in a different set of 'rules', as such, even if that meant 'no rules'' would be pretty foolish.  Sorta akin to someone being trained in UFC rules being challenged to a gun fight; you train for a certain kind of competition and suddenly you have to defend yourself against tactics, techniques, and dangers completely outside your training.  Is there any real reason to?  And if someone were foolish enough to try it, do the results really matter to anything?

Sounds more like PR grand-standing to me


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## Andrew Green (Oct 29, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Sounds more like PR grand-standing to me



It is, and it always had been.

The fight would never happen, no top boxer would bother.  If they win the prize is too small, if they loose they may steer fans from boxing to MMA.  Loose - Loose for them.

If it where to happen I would imagine Gracie would win, and I would place my money on him.  Unless the Boxer trained for it.  Stick Tyson with a wrestling coach and a BJJ coach for a year and I'd change my bet.  But someone with a name that big can make a lot of money durring that time, why on earth would they take ayear off to train for a low-paying fight?


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2005)

Or lose-lose 

I agree.  I think that's why you don't see more corss-overs like that.  Why don't any of the Lopez family take on anyone n the Gracie family? Not worth it.  It'd be awesome to see to people of that caliber in their respective sports going at it together but...no real motivation.  Why go from being the top of the world in the rules you train for to maybe getting your butt kicked doing something new to you?  Unless the money is *really* good, it's not worth it.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2005)

I'm sure a cursory examination of the average MMA class would reveal our very human instinct to form social hierarchies.  In fact, I worked out with a man who trained with Ken Shamrock in the Lion's Den and he assured me that there were egos a-plenty.

There is always a pecking order.  **** always rolls downhill.  A positive aspect of belts and rank is that it somewhat controls this process.

The belt is just a symbol and humans are natually symbol users.  If you take away that symbol, humans will find another symbol...


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2005)

_There is always a pecking order_

Agreed.

One other thing that belts help to do is to stage competiions.  I mean, in training, a yellow belt against a black belt can be a great education.  In a real match, it's absurd.   The belts allow a ranking of competition so people can spar roughly against their peers so that the competition is meaningful.


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## swiftpete (Oct 29, 2005)

I tell you what i'm not a bad grappler but there is no way in the world i'd go in the ring against tyson no matter what the rules, for any amount of money! If he did actually catch you with a punch, he would probably punch your head off your neck. Unless you're a 17 stone bruiser yourself, then your neck would probably just break. Either way, you'd more than likely be dead before you hit the ground!


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## Shogun (Oct 30, 2005)

> Seems like everyone who trains for 30 years or so decides that they deserve to be 10th degree. Maybe after 30 years he is really good, but 10th degree? come on, man! that's nuts.


Maybe. My outlook on it is if a person trains and then says they are grand-whatever..so be it. they are only as grand a their technique will allow. making yourself a 10th degree black belt or whatever doesn't mean you've mastered everything. it doesnt mean anything except you are the "master" of what you know. 
I mean, Carlos and Gastao Gracie never came close to mastering Kosen Judo, yet they are 10th degree masters of Gracie jiu jitsu. 

why? because they have mastered what they know. (plus, the gracies can, and have, proved the effectiveness)

Most will tell you that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the most effective and scientific form of grappling. But the gracie family only spent about 5 years with the Judo teacher Maeda. so its more of what you can do and what you know, than how long you've trained.


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## shesulsa (Nov 3, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Oh, but I think many times it is. How often can a guy get people to bow to him? Call him "master"? How often is the "average joe" in a place to tell people what to do and what is being done right or wrong? For some people, the tighter they tie that belt, the larger their heads become. Not all people. But for many of the insecure, otherwise socially inept people, its POWER. And you know the sayings about power.


I know this happens, but rank is not designed to be power-over in the sense of abuse.  What you are describing is ego and, again, is a situation for a teacher to address.  There are always going to be bad teachers, but again, it is not necessarily tied to the belt, rather a character flaw and unfulfilled psychological need.  There are plenty people who don't hold rank but who have superiority complexes.  This is nothing but incomplete training and/or a character flaw, IMVHO.


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 3, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Most will tell you that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the most effective and scientific form of grappling. But the gracie family only spent about 5 years with the Judo teacher Maeda. so its more of what you can do and what you know, than how long you've trained.


 
Bingo!


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## Flying Crane (Nov 3, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Maybe. My outlook on it is if a person trains and then says they are grand-whatever..so be it. they are only as grand a their technique will allow. making yourself a 10th degree black belt or whatever doesn't mean you've mastered everything. it doesnt mean anything except you are the "master" of what you know.
> I mean, Carlos and Gastao Gracie never came close to mastering Kosen Judo, yet they are 10th degree masters of Gracie jiu jitsu.
> 
> why? because they have mastered what they know. (plus, the gracies can, and have, proved the effectiveness)
> ...


 
Well, I don't think the Gracies is the typical example.  

If I mastered the reverse punch and nothing else, and then claimed rank of 10th Dan, but all I could teach was the reverse punch, I'd be laughed out of the martial arts community.  Not that quantity is what matters, but ya can't tag on a 10th degree for just anything.

Personally, I tend to shy away from people claiming high rank.  I immediately view them with suspicion, esp. if I know they went thru the last couple of high ranks fairly quickly.  Maybe I am limiting my possibilities.  Maybe I could learn some great stuff from these people, but I see the 10th degree thing as an automatic red flag for an egomaniac.  This is often true for the 7th, 8th, and 9th as well, especially if they are fairly young, like under 50.  I don't need to be part of someone else's agenda, or empire.


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## Fletcher (Nov 10, 2005)

Ranking systems may create some problems, but IMO, they also serve to motivate you to work harder so you can get to the next rank. Some people don't need this to stay motivated to work out, but many do. Even if you are one of the rare breed that trains every day for the love of it, the pat on the back you get when you pass your belt test still makes you feel pretty good about yourself, which helps you keep enjoying the activity you love.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 11, 2005)

Fletcher said:
			
		

> Ranking systems may create some problems, but IMO, they also serve to motivate you to work harder so you can get to the next rank. Some people don't need this to stay motivated to work out, but many do. Even if you are one of the rare breed that trains every day for the love of it, the pat on the back you get when you pass your belt test still makes you feel pretty good about yourself, which helps you keep enjoying the activity you love.


 
This is true, but I don't think the 7th-10th degrees are looking for the pat on the back...


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## Fletcher (Nov 12, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> This is true, but I don't think the 7th-10th degrees are looking for the pat on the back...


The legitimate ones aren't looking for that, but I'll bet they still feel pretty good when they get promoted. The ones that promote themselves want that pat on the back more than most people and can't find anyone to give it to them so they pat themselves on the back.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 13, 2005)

Fletcher said:
			
		

> The legitimate ones aren't looking for that, but I'll bet they still feel pretty good when they get promoted. The ones that promote themselves want that pat on the back more than most people and can't find anyone to give it to them so they pat themselves on the back.


 
yup, and this is, of course, what I am objecting to.


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## Fletcher (Nov 14, 2005)

I can't stand people that promote themselves or promote their students when they don't deserve to be. However, I personally don't think that doing away with ranking systems would be of any benefit to MA. Parents want to know how their kids are progressing and it sets goals for everyone to work towords. I really think that doing away with ranking systems would hurt enrollment and make it harder to keep students coming to class, especially the younger students.

I realize that there are some schools that don't have any ranking system, but I don't know where any are in my area. I would be interested in checking it out to see if they have any problems like I think they would.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 14, 2005)

I kind of wouldn't mind seeing a ranking system up to blackbelt.  Once you have reached blackbelt, the only step next is to become an instructor.  Once you are given permission to be a teacher, that is it.

We all know there is much more to learn, and we know from whom we can learn, and who is better than we are, but I don't think we need to have so many rankings beyond that.  I think that is where the ego gets in the way.  Besides, if someone reaches this point, they should be able to get their motivation to train from within themselves, not from another promotion that is coming up.  If not, they don't deserve the blackbelt.


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## Fletcher (Nov 15, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I kind of wouldn't mind seeing a ranking system up to blackbelt.  Once you have reached blackbelt, the only step next is to become an instructor.  Once you are given permission to be a teacher, that is it.
> 
> We all know there is much more to learn, and we know from whom we can learn, and who is better than we are, but I don't think we need to have so many rankings beyond that.  I think that is where the ego gets in the way.  Besides, if someone reaches this point, they should be able to get their motivation to train from within themselves, not from another promotion that is coming up.  If not, they don't deserve the blackbelt.


That's a great idea. Now how do we get all these 10th dans to agree with us?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 15, 2005)

Fletcher said:
			
		

> That's a great idea. Now how do we get all these 10th dans to agree with us?


 
ooooohhhh, that's gonna be a problem!!  Glad I've got one convert, tho!


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