# Do you want more philosophy in your dojo?



## hapki68 (Jun 12, 2006)

I think this question is different from the ones already posted, but I apologize if it's not.

Would you like more philosophy/religion in your school?  

I feel as though I'm missing out on gaining the full MA experience by having what we learn disconnected from its eastern philosophical roots.  Although I love the physical part of all this, I feel the mental part is lacking.

Although I adhere to some Buddhist principles, just as I do some Christian ones, I don't believe in Buddhism or Hinduism (or Christianity) enough to become a part of any of those things. 

Sure, I can read books about philosophies... but it would be much more fulfilling to share the mental aspects with other people.  In sum, I'd like a dojo that teaches philosophy (right living, clarity, etc) through the MA, just as I imagine it was intended.

Thoughts?

Patrick


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## matt.m (Jun 12, 2006)

You know,

I guess because I used my 9 lives in the Marines I think that I go to the tae kwon do and hapkido classes and go to train.  I don't care about deep rooted Korean philosophy.  I understand it is too work hard and be honest and have integrity.  That is all I know.

Plus, it isn't a big deal to me, the philosophy aspect is good.  I don't think that a total experience is still gained without it though.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 12, 2006)

In my opinion this has been done to death on MT. 

I have trained Japanese, Korean and Chinese MA, mainly Chinese. I do know about the philosophy, but I did not learn it in any MA school, nor do I feel I should have. The study of these MAs did get me interested in knowing more so I studied them on my own, outside of class.

In class you train, I do not feel it is a place to sit and have philosophical discussions when, in general, the time you train with your teacher is short and oh so important.


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## hapki68 (Jun 12, 2006)

I figured it probably had been done to death, but I wasn't sure.

I'm probably just missing something in my life.  I'll drink a beer when I get home and feel better


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I do know about the philosophy, but I did not learn it in any MA school, nor do I feel I should have. The study of these MAs did get me interested in knowing more so I studied them on my own, outside of class.
> 
> In class you train, I do not feel it is a place to sit and have philosophical discussions when, in general, the time you train with your teacher is short and oh so important.




I agree with this...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 12, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> I figured it probably had been done to death, but I wasn't sure.
> 
> I'm probably just missing something in my life. I'll drink a beer when I get home and feel better


 
Not to worry, I am sure there will be more to come along that will have a more positive outlook or be more receptive on the subject than I.


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## Kacey (Jun 12, 2006)

If students are interested in philosphy, I will sit with them after class and discuss it.  However, there are things that I think are important to discuss in class that may be philosophical in nature - most notably, what constitutes ethical use of the skills taught in class.  This may be more or less philosophical depending on the ages of the participants... but I don't think that this is the type of philosophy under discussion.  As far as religious/spiritual/philosophical, I don't think that that has a place in in the dojang unless the class is themed for that type of information; for example, it would be more appropriate to discuss such things in a Christian MA class, as that seems like it would be part of the purpose of the class - but for the vast majority of classes that are not coming from that type of perspective, then I think the moral/ethical component needs to be discussed from a practicality standpoint (i.e. how to defend yourself without getting killed, jailed, or sued), and that's about it.


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## MartialIntent (Jun 12, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> I think this question is different from the ones already posted, but I apologize if it's not.
> 
> Would you like more philosophy/religion in your school?
> 
> ...


Patrick, 
Don't worry about whether or not a question's been asked previously - to have had suggested to you that something's been "done to death" in an open forum is akin to inviting oneself to speak and then subsequently inviting everyone else to shut up. It's a question with merit and one worth asking.

I think in many respects a lot of MA places now are nothing but extensions of the jingoistic "work hard, play hard" nonsense mentality that a lot of us are force-fed in our 9-5s. I genuinely wish you luck in your search for a dojo providing students with some philosophical background to the physical techniques though I fear it might potentially be a fruitless endeavor. I'd certainly be interested to know if you *do* find a match for your search criteria though! 

I think in light of the notion that most folk just wanna "train hard", the scope for spirituality and philosophy within the training framework can be, at best limited. I'd say it was limited by both the framework itself and the reluctance of many instructors to take up _any_ kind of spiritial / philosophical mantle for whatever personal [or financially constrained] reasons they may have. That's fair enough, you pays your money and takes your choice, but the problem for me is that many of these same places will indeed have explicit mention of their philosophical aspect but never actually follow through on it - for me it's nothing but a vote catcher to assist in satisfying the monthly figures. Just an opinion though!

Personally yeah I'd like to see more at places of study, at least in terms of pointing students in the appropriate general direction - especially as beginning students often have no clear direction with regard to the spiritual aspect of the art - having said that there should be absolutely no requirement nor coercion in any form. 

It's somewhat easier for me myself to link the core philosophical tenets to the techniques in general as a practitioner of Aikido but I certainly appreciate that this isn't always the case for other arts where the spiritual sides are often more implicit than explicit. But I'd try to set some time aside to put across the philosophical nature of the art outside of time spent training techniques if students have shown an interest in that other side of things.

Good luck and respects!


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 12, 2006)

I would rather have an instructor stress responsibilty in the home and community but I guess this also could be considered a part of  philosophy
as for religion I dont want it even discussed in my school


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## Makalakumu (Jun 12, 2006)

There are also certain arts that lend themselves to more philosophic discussion.  Aikido, for instance, is deeply rooted in Eastern aspects.  More physical arts are...more physical.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 13, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Patrick,  to have had suggested to you that something's been "done to death" in an open forum is akin to inviting oneself to speak and then subsequently inviting everyone else to shut up!


 
I am sorry you assumed that is what I was saying but with all due respect you are entirely wrong. I said what I felt and that was it. I was not inviting, saying or even remotely suggesting that anyone "shut up!"



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I think in many respects a lot of MA places now are nothing but extensions of the jingoistic "work hard, play hard" nonsense mentality that a lot of us are force-fed in our 9-5s. I genuinely wish you luck in your search for a dojo providing students with some philosophical background to the physical techniques though I fear it might potentially be a fruitless endeavor. I'd certainly be interested to know if you *do* find a match for your search criteria though!


 
Once again with all due respect but that statement is mildly insulting don't you think?



			
				MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I think in light of the notion that most folk just wanna "train hard", the scope for spirituality and philosophy within the training framework can be, at best limited. I'd say it was limited by both the framework itself and the reluctance of many instructors to take up any kind of spiritial / philosophical mantle for whatever personal [or financially constrained] reasons they may have. That's fair enough, you pays your money and takes your choice, but the problem for me is that many of these same places will indeed have explicit mention of their philosophical aspect but never actually follow through on it - for me it's nothing but a vote catcher to assist in satisfying the monthly figures. Just an opinion though!
> 
> Personally yeah I'd like to see more at places of study, at least in terms of pointing students in the appropriate general direction - especially as beginning students often have no clear direction with regard to the spiritual aspect of the art - having said that there should be absolutely no requirement nor coercion in any form.
> 
> ...


 
Didn't we have this discussion before or is it just the fact that it sounds incredibly familiar to another I had on MT. And I have no desire to get into this again, but since my statements were misinterpreted here I go..again.

But before I do if you had bothered to read my 2nd post you would also see that I did let Hapki know that there would be others that would be more receptive with a better outlook on the subject than I. I admitted I was probably not the best person to have this discussion with and I certainly did not mean for him to quit asking. 

Form my personal experience it is the pursuit of spirituality in the MA school that is killing the true essence of many martial arts. It is doing a bang up job on Yang style Tai Chi, working on Bagua, hitting Aikido and soon to hit Chen style too. But If you read Ueshiba, Aikido is fairly spirituality based to begin with. And this seach for spirituality comes from a general misunderstanding of what makes up the art in the first place. To be spiritual for a moment, the teacher just opens the door, it is up to the student to take it from there. 


If you want spirituality that is great, I am all for it. But the problem occurs when many who pursue it in a Dojo, kwoon or whatever you call it tend to do it at the expense of those who don't. They want to tie up precious class time discussing what Lao Tzu meant by &#8220;the usefulness of a thing is in it's emptiness&#8221; and how does that apply here, or what exactly did Confucius mean when he said "a gentleman must be careful in speech and quick to act" or asking about Buddha, Zen, and Shinto. But is does not nor will it stop there it will degrade into discussions about Qi in ways that are so off the mark it is plain ridiculous. And then the new age spirituality hits and that is when many MA classes go right off the edge. 

I lost a very very good Tai Chi Sifu to this, he gave in to the spirituality seekers and the new age spirituallity people and if that is what you want to pursue than great, like I said I am all for it, but in my experience the majority of people that bring this into an MA school seek to control the class and change it to their needs at the expense of all others that are there or others that would have come later. 

I also know of another teacher that is a Taoist and will not teach anyone that is not serious about the Martial arts or Qigong he is teaching. You go there and start trying to discuss spirituality you not only miss out on what it great teaching from a great teacher you will probably be asked to leave. To him Taoism is part of Tai Chi, part of Bagua, Part of Xingyi, part of Qigong, it is not a separate subject to be discussed. You gain understanding from the training.

Spirituallity is an intrinsic part of many martial arts IF you actually study the art. It is not up to the teacher to hold a philosophy class, if you want the spirituality read book, take a course, go to church. 

When I use to teach Tai Chi I told my students about applicable books if they so desired to learn more, generally I figured that one out by them asking me. I have read many of these books myself. But if the class is 1 hour long, more or less, it is to be used to teach the martial art the student are there to learn. Not a pseudo religious/spirituality class. There is simply not enough time

I have never asked any of my teacher&#8217;s religious of spirituality questions beyond Taoist of Buddhist breathing (which I mixed up in another post..sorry about that). I have had some discussions with my teachers about Taoism, but it is when they brought it up or were asking me to help explain something they were asked. 

I honestly wish Hapki luck in his quest, but I still do not feel it is something that should be expected in an MA class. A martial arts teacher is just that, a martial arts teacher, not a religious Guru.


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## Carol (Jun 13, 2006)

Bottom line for me, I pay for training, I want training.  I don't mind if my school discusses philosophy, I just don't want my mat time and tuition going towards it.  

My school  has a black belt club where we spend time going over extra material...typically stuff that we don't test on such as sticks and weapons disarms...as such, tuition payments of club members are a little higher to pay my instructors for their extra time needed for the club.  I don't have a problem with that.

If my school wanted to have a Zen club under similar bounds, then I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

I've got nothing against Eastern philosophy, being of an Eastern faith myself I rather appreciate it.  But it's not why I train.


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