# Holloway Wins



## TMA17 (Dec 9, 2018)

Striking beats top level BJJ Ortega.


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## Headhunter (Dec 9, 2018)

You can't really say that on either side because Holloway trains Bjj and Ortega trains striking. It's not 93 where it's only style.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2018)

It's one fighter beating another on the night, next time it could be different.


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## TMA17 (Dec 9, 2018)

I agree I shouldn’t have said it that way.  I am surprised Ortega didn’t try and go the the ground more. ?


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I agree I shouldn’t have said it that way.  I am surprised Ortega didn’t try and go the the ground more. ?




Haven't seen the fight as up to my eyes with various things at the moment, (who said there'd be more time when you retired?) but if your opponent is particularly better at one thing you train to stop him using it so I imagine that will be what happened either that or Ortega got _his _tactics wrong.


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## Buka (Dec 9, 2018)

Holloway beat him up.


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## Headhunter (Dec 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I agree I shouldn’t have said it that way.  I am surprised Ortega didn’t try and go the the ground more. ?


Ortega is a good fighter no doubt but he's also been lucky. A lot of his fights he's been losing before he rallied and got the finish e.g his fight with guida. I mean he's obviously tough and got skill but his fight iq isn't great he needs to work on it


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## CB Jones (Dec 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Haven't seen the fight as up to my eyes with various things at the moment, (who said there'd be more time when you retired?) but if your opponent is particularly better at one thing you train to stop him using it so I imagine that will be what happened either that or Ortega got _his _tactics wrong.



Well his tactics are to strike with his opponent until the easy takedown is there or his opponent takes him down then his grappling takes over.

With Holloway being a much better striker I could see that tactic being problematic.


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## Martial D (Dec 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Striking beats top level BJJ Ortega.



Ehh. Sort of. That was a kickboxing match, and Ortega had max in trouble a couple of times. He just couldn't keep the same pace.

On the other foot, Nelson vs Oliviera was also (probably more so) a striker vs grappler scenario that went the other way.

(on a side note I found that fight more interesting based on the rather unusual way Gunner used TKD footwork to get takedowns.)

LINK TO FIGHTS


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## Martial D (Dec 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I agree I shouldn’t have said it that way.  I am surprised Ortega didn’t try and go the the ground more. ?



11 takedown attempts isnt a small number.

But neither is 307 significant strikes.


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## Headhunter (Dec 9, 2018)

At the end of the day there's no such think as striker vs grappler anymore this is Mma the strikers can grapple and the grapplers can strike. A jiu jitsu guy winning doesn't make jiu jitsu and a boxer winning doesn't make boxing better it's whoever gets their game off first and frankly luckiest. There's a lot of luck to fighting e.g when Ortega landed that big punch it was luck on holloways side he wasn't knocked out


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## Buka (Dec 9, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> At the end of the day there's no such think as striker vs grappler anymore this is Mma the strikers can grapple and the grapplers can strike. A jiu jitsu guy winning doesn't make jiu jitsu and a boxer winning doesn't make boxing better it's whoever gets their game off first and frankly luckiest. There's a lot of luck to fighting e.g when Ortega landed that big punch it was luck on holloways side he wasn't knocked out



When Holloway landed his big punches was luck on Ortega’s side that he didn’t get knocked out?


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2018)

Buka said:


> When Holloway landed his big punches was luck on Ortega’s side that he didn’t get knocked out?



As I said, I haven't seen the fight but often a certain amount of luck is always present in a fight. 

Anyone else had to scroll through pages of unintelligible spam posts to find this thread and the other genuine ones? it's the third time this week.


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## Headhunter (Dec 10, 2018)

Buka said:


> When Holloway landed his big punches was luck on Ortega’s side that he didn’t get knocked out?


Pretty much yeah. Those same punches knocked out Aldo. The guys tough but that's not something you can train


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## Martial D (Dec 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Pretty much yeah. Those same punches knocked out Aldo. The guys tough but that's not something you can train


No, but toughness levels are part of the package, just like skill.


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## TMA17 (Dec 10, 2018)

I need to watch the entire fight.  I’ve only seen clips.  

I’d like to know why Ortega had zero success with taking him down.  He’s a supposedly one of the top BJJ players in the sport.  Are his takedowns weak and more basic or is Holloways TD defense that good?  

I expected this fight to go to the ground.  Look how a guy like Khabib always gets the guy down.  That is a given.  Is this a weak spot often talked about in Ortega’s BJJ game or BJJ in general?  If you can’t go to the ground and your number one attribute is BJJ, you better have great striking or you’re not going to do well.


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## Martial D (Dec 10, 2018)

Ortega's striking is no joke. However, there is a reason Holloway has been the champ as long as he has.


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## Headhunter (Dec 10, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I need to watch the entire fight.  I’ve only seen clips.
> 
> I’d like to know why Ortega had zero success with taking him down.  He’s a supposedly one of the top BJJ players in the sport.  Are his takedowns weak and more basic or is Holloways TD defense that good?
> 
> I expected this fight to go to the ground.  Look how a guy like Khabib always gets the guy down.  That is a given.  Is this a weak spot often talked about in Ortega’s BJJ game or BJJ in general?  If you can’t go to the ground and your number one attribute is BJJ, you better have great striking or you’re not going to do well.


You're overthinking this way to much. Simply Holloway was better that night and he won that's it. In another fight maybe Ortega would win its fighting not a scientific experiment. Also khabib doesn't always get people down he's failed on takedowns before. Plus different styles. Fighting really isn't complicated. One guy wins one guy loses it doesn't mean the loser sucks or the winners amazing it just means that one person had a 50% chance of winning


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> You're overthinking this way to much. Simply Holloway was better that night and he won that's it. In another fight maybe Ortega would win its fighting not a scientific experiment. Also khabib doesn't always get people down he's failed on takedowns before. Plus different styles. Fighting really isn't complicated. One guy wins one guy loses it doesn't mean the loser sucks or the winners amazing it just means that one person had a 50% chance of winning




This is correct, the best one on the night wins ( unless the fighters allow the judges to decide and then the result can be a toss of the coin!)
I was watching Biathlon yesterday, love it, the chap who was the world champion last year and is in the lead at the moment had a bad day and actually didn't finish as he was having a shocker, he just couldn't do it on the day. Next race he'll be on form again and will likely be the world champ this year, it's just how competitive sports win, even Usain Bolt lost races. No different in fights, there's many factors that affect how you perform on the day, good competitors try to minimise the risk but there will always be that one that means you could lose.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2018)

I don't think fights are won and lost on random chance.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 11, 2018)

*That was a great beat down. * Max was able to keep it standing up and Ortega just couldn't keep him down.  I though Ortega should have tried a lot harder, especially early on to get Max down.  As the rounds went on and there was more sweat, blood etc. getting someone like Max down was going to be harder and harder.


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## Buka (Dec 12, 2018)

I think Ortega was shocked by Holloway. I think early on he was saying to himself “uh oh.”

Things usually go downhill from there.


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## TMA17 (Dec 12, 2018)

Well one has to wonder if Ortega’s takedowns are just too weak being he is a BJJ (GJJ)?  If your number one attribute is BJJ, it’s a must you have good takedowns, otherwise BJJ is useless.  Sounds like Max could have good takedown defense though.  A guy like Khabib would have likely taken Max down.  There is a big difference.  An important one too.


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## Headhunter (Dec 12, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Well one has to wonder if Ortega’s takedowns are just too weak being he is a BJJ (GJJ)?  If your number one attribute is BJJ, it’s a must you have good takedowns, otherwise BJJ is useless.  Sounds like Max could have good takedown defense though.  A guy like Khabib would have likely taken Max down.  There is a big difference.  An important one too.


You're making this way over complicated there is nothing wrong with ortegas takedowns no one was saying that at all before this fight and Ortega can probably take down over half of the population in Mma. But this is the highest levels and Holloway is also a high level fighter who's also a lot bigger than him. Fact is Ortega was undefeated before this fight...were you saying anything about his poor takedowns then? He lost a fight that's it. It doesn't make him any less a fighter he just lost its fighting it happens


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## TMA17 (Dec 12, 2018)

I suppose you’re right.  Styles make fights.  A Khabib vs Ortega matchup would be interesting.


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