# Ok,... I will ask a stupid question



## Hudson69 (Dec 20, 2010)

I have been out of EPAK for a long time now; about 15 years.  Back when I was "in" it I made my way up through Black but maybe it was my school(s) but grappling was never a part of the training, we didn't even do much in the way rolls or break falls.

So my question is: Is grappling something new to Kenpo Karate or was it just left out of my training at instructor discretion a decade and a half ago?


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## girlbug2 (Dec 20, 2010)

Not a stupid question at all. When I started training EPAK over 5 years ago what you describe was still the case...don't know if EPAK has evolved in recent years to include more groundfighting, as I quit training it myself 3 years ago. I am also curious about that.

Answers, anybody?


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## Big Don (Dec 20, 2010)

It isn't there, yet, it is there. Much like facing North, or West, if you can do a technique while vertical, you can do it, while horizontal. Just because your situation changes, your skills don't.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Dec 20, 2010)

my opinion is that the framework has been there to explore it, the concepts and principles in the art transfer over to groundfighting as well, adn have in my opinion vastly accelerated my understanding of grappling. But I think it has never really been actively covered as a whole.. The whole concept of Kenpo has been to stay mobile, stay in control of your own body and movement, and leave options open as you address problems... once you go the ground and are actively engaged and wrapped up with an opponent you lose alot of freedom and break some of the cardinal rules of Kenpo.
I think as grappling has become more and more popular many kenpo schools have added curriculum and "answers" since 1993 and have sowly been evolving into a full range art..
that is my opinion as an educated insider/outsider


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2010)

*No it wasn't there.*  Just look back to the day of Ed Parker himself and you did not see any ground grappling.  Recently though with the advent of brazilian jiujitsu almost every system is scrambling to create a ground game.  Some are doing it better than others and some are doing a terrible job!


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## punisher73 (Dec 21, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *No it wasn't there.* Just look back to the day of Ed Parker himself and you did not see any ground grappling. Recently though with the advent of brazilian jiujitsu almost every system is scrambling to create a ground game. Some are doing it better than others and some are doing a terrible job!


 
Yes and no.  Ed Parker was a blackbelt in Judo and the early kenpo techniques were designed to be used against a grappler's attack (early kenpo through Chow was heavily influenced by Danzan-Ryu JJ) and it was also understood that to defend against that attack that you were trained to be able to apply that attack.  Many of the early students talked about rolling and breakfalls were a regular part of class in those days.  It has also been mentioned that as time went on and kenpo became more commercial these elements were removed and/or not emphasized.

As to the ground part of the grappling, Ed Parker did not have it in there.  BUT, they did have the takedowns etc. to put the other guy there and take him out.  They also trained extensively if you were on the ground to get back up quickly using kicks etc.  So, the early kenpo trained in grappling attacks while standing and ground FIGHTING in the early days, but not in the ground grappling like we see in the MMA/Grappling competitions.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2010)

Big Don said:


> It isn't there, yet, it is there. Much like facing North, or West, if you can do a technique while vertical, you can do it, while horizontal. Just because your situation changes, your skills don't.


I've heard experts suggest this from many different styles.  I just don't believe that this is true.  With a ground "assist" the basics of body mechanics change dramatically.  You have an extra couple of limbs to use if you're on your back that would normally be occupied keeping you upright, and the ground makes positions very easy to attain that are functionally impossible while standing.  Bottom line is that the human body bends differently when on the ground.  It moves differently.  Center of gravity is different.  Power generation is different.  Some principles remain the same, but in almost every major way it's a mistake to treat the ground simply as a horizontal version of what you already know.  

Conversely, I would never presume to take the techniques I use on the ground and suggest that I could simply do them vertically and have any success at all.  Two different things.


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## punisher73 (Dec 22, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I've heard experts suggest this from many different styles. I just don't believe that this is true. With a ground "assist" the basics of body mechanics change dramatically. You have an extra couple of limbs to use if you're on your back that would normally be occupied keeping you upright, and the ground makes positions very easy to attain that are functionally impossible while standing. Bottom line is that the human body bends differently when on the ground. It moves differently. Center of gravity is different. Power generation is different. Some principles remain the same, but in almost every major way it's a mistake to treat the ground simply as a horizontal version of what you already know.
> 
> Conversely, I would never presume to take the techniques I use on the ground and suggest that I could simply do them vertically and have any success at all. Two different things.


 
I agree with that.  I do however believe that if you are experienced in a stand up style that incorporates stand up grappling and then you learn a legitimate grappling style like BJJ, then you will see a lot of similarities of how the things are applied and alot of concepts are the same.  BUT, you have to actually be rolling around to get the "feel" of how it all ties together and that only comes with actually using the moves against an opponent.  

I also agree that the body can be used in different ways on the ground than standing.  Watch any good grappler and you are dealing with four arms grabbing and holding you.

I think it is important to really understand basic positions and submissions and how to incorporate those defenses into your arsenal.  To give an example, I was flipping through a book at Barnes and Noble one time.  It was on groundfighting and pressure points.  The defense it showed was for the "good guy" on his back and the "bad guy" in a mount position.  It said to push into the base of the guys throat and extend your arm to create distance.  Only problem was, yes it would cause pain and might move the guy up, but you were sitting there with your arm extended just asking to be arm barred.  So, somethings that work standing will get things broke on the ground if you don't understand those basic positions and what is possible from them.


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2010)

When I started EPAK in 1985 I was taught falls and rolls.


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## chaos1551 (Dec 30, 2010)

I am learning American Kenpo now and we are taught some ground techniques in the purple belt curriculum as extensions of the techniques of earlier belts.


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