# When did you start practicing on the wooden dummy?



## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

I emailed one school and asked the instructor if they have dummies and how exactly this works, wether you can
train on them whenever you like to.

He said that training on dummies makes no sense at all unless you have trained a few years and reached a certain degree I think he
said 4. degree, whatever this means.

Is this normal? To me this sounds like a cheap excuse for not having to provide dummies for the students to practice on.

And I can almost bet that in order to even reach this necessary degree you have to take private lessons which cost extra.

What's your take on this?

I heard that you should start with the dummy early on cause it offers benefits.


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## KPM (Jul 31, 2016)

Was it a Wing Chun school?  This depends on the lineage of Wing Chun and the instructor.  The dummy form itself doesn't come until you are several years into the curriculum in most Wing Chun schools.  Some instructors may allow beginning students to start training some basic exercises, some may not.  In Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun everything has a dummy version right from the beginning. So the student starts using the dummy right away.  But this is not typical for Ip Man Wing Chun.


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

There is no written rule.
Different instructors, different teaching methods.
What is important is do you enjoy the instruction and training your are getting? If so, keep on learning and enjoying yourself. When the instructor is ready for you to begin learning on the dummy then you will.
Using the dummy for some training or doing some drills on is not the same as learning the wooden dummy form.


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

But I'd like to start with a dummy asap cause I imagine this to be really fun.

But if the school doesn't even have dummies standing around then you also cannot train on them.

I emailed various schools and the replies all sounded like "yeah we do have a dummy". A dummy.

I was expecting that schools have at least a few dummies not just 1. Is this normal?!


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But I'd like to start with a dummy asap cause I imagine this to be really fun.
> 
> But if the school doesn't even have dummies standing around then you also cannot train on them.
> 
> ...


Few have more than 1.
They are expensive... so the schools need good long term paying students to afford them more than one.
Do you even know what the dummy is for?
Because of what the tool is designed for it usually isn't utilized until the student has a particular level of skill prior to being allowed to train on the dummy.


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

Expensive? I don't think so. They cost a few hundred bucks. That's not much for a school.

I'd even buy one for myself if I knew how to use it.


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Expensive? I don't think so. They cost a few hundred bucks. That's not much for a school.
> 
> I'd even buy one for myself if I knew how to use it.


Then go train, learn and gain the skills needed to use the dummy properly. Purchase one and use it.
You are complaining about monthly fees being too expensive and don't want to pay them but expect the school to have all the equipment. You don't want them to make money on the extras, ie... uniforms, required training gear but expect them to have all the other equipment like dummies, heavy bags, etc. How do you expect them to have equipment when you don't feel the students should have to pay the fees, uniforms, and equipment?


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## KPM (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Expensive? I don't think so. They cost a few hundred bucks. That's not much for a school.
> 
> I'd even buy one for myself if I knew how to use it.



Uh. No.  A decent dummy that can take normal abuse runs around $800 to $1200.   One that costs "a few hundred bucks" likely wouldn't be worth owning.  It certainly wouldn't stand up to the abuse it would get in the typical Wing Chun school!


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## kehcorpz (Jul 31, 2016)

But where shall I learn the skills?

Obviously the teacher doesn't teach this to beginners cause according to him you dont need this.

You could probably learn this in private lessons which cost a fortune....


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## Danny T (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But where shall I learn the skills?
> 
> Obviously the teacher doesn't teach this to beginners cause according to him you dont need this.
> 
> You could probably learn this in private lessons which cost a fortune....


Then take the group classes, learn the material, practice and gain the skills so you can then use the dummy.
Easy.

If I were the instructor even as a private student I wouldn't teach you something you aren't ready for. That would be a waste of your time & money...And in that I would be ripping you off.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jul 31, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I emailed one school and asked the instructor if they have dummies and how exactly this works, wether you can
> train on them whenever you like to.
> 
> He said that training on dummies makes no sense at all unless you have trained a few years and reached a certain degree I think he
> ...



Instructor should've replied yeah I have one dummy emailing me right now


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## Azulx (Jul 31, 2016)

I'm starting to get the feeling that all these posts are a series of jokes. This guy can't be serious, he can't. There is no way.


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## anerlich (Aug 2, 2016)

Azulx said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling that all these posts are a series of jokes. This guy can't be serious, he can't. There is no way.



Either that or he is the unluckiest b@stard in Christendom and totally unable to help himself.


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## Phobius (Aug 2, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But where shall I learn the skills?
> 
> Obviously the teacher doesn't teach this to beginners cause according to him you dont need this.
> 
> You could probably learn this in private lessons which cost a fortune....



Yea, the teacher is withholding that secret juice which is the dummy form. He probably thinks that if he shows you the magical moves in the dummy form you will become an unbeatable fighter instantly and will before he knows it be able to smash rocks with your fists by pure mental projection alone.

I believe that schools in general are too slow to teach the forms causing people to think that parts of system is the whole deal. However doing stuff on the dummy, well we did some basic movements  already from day one. Was not because wooden dummy allowed us to train some magical properties. We were simply uneven numbers and someone had to stand with the dummy occassionally. Good place to focus on the movement and not be blinded thinking it is an actual application based technique. Dummy form itself in the hands of a dummy is a disaster, talk about having no clue what they are doing and so intent on destroying themselves it is almost silly. Trying to tell them what they are doing wrong is even worse because they have better knowledge of what the dummy is used for such as hitting it full force making your knuckles bleed to just show how cool and powerful they are. Especially being all stiff and rigid of course.

Now you are silly. You do not need private lessons to learn wooden dummy form. You already know it after having watched multiple videos of it. In fact there is not much these clubs can teach you that you do not already know yourself. Truth be told they are just gonna be holding you back from becoming the greatest badass warrior this world has ever seen. Only thing you need to become the best is to get someone to tell you which videos you should watch of which art, so you waste less of your precious time.


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 3, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But where shall I learn the skills?
> 
> Obviously the teacher doesn't teach this to beginners cause according to him you dont need this.
> 
> You could probably learn this in private lessons which cost a fortune....



An analogous example: There is an English professor who teaches creative writing. A child comes to them wanting to learn to write. You say "Let me teach you the alphabet first". The child is angry but learns their alphabet, then asks again. Teacher tells them "Let me teach you vocabulary, grammar, and syntax". The child is frustrated but learns. The child asks again, and now that there is a foundation the teacher can move on to actually teaching the student to write.

Griping about not being able to learn on a dummy from a teacher you have not even learned any basics from yet is the equivalent of a child running away from the teacher and telling others how awful it is that he won't teach you to write when the child doesn't grasp the tools that would make writing make *any coherent sense*. Did I call you a child? No, it was just incidental as part of my analogy. But griping about not being able to use a dummy because you "think it would be cool" is just even more face palm worthy, no offense.

For the record, I don't claim to be highly skilled in WC. I am a Chum Kiu level student. I do have my own dummy at home, which I use to practice certain things, but its ended up being fairly rare. I have plenty else to work on without feeling like I am "missing out" on the dummy. The Biu Jee level students at my school use the dummy, learning portions of the form itself, but not even the whole form.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 3, 2016)

Phobius said:


> I believe that schools in general are too slow to teach the forms causing people to think that parts of system is the whole deal. However doing stuff on the dummy, well we did some basic movements  already from day one.



To me the only explanation is money. Dummies cost money and also teaching dummy forms to students cannot be done in huge places where you
have 50 people running around. Doing drills is much easier you just need 2 people training with each other.

This highly bothers me when I feel like a school simply withholds dummies with silly explanations for monetary reasons.

Also he said dummies don't come before the 4th degree. And guess what? Before you can even get there you have to do
all kinds of exams which also cost extra money. It's all far out in the future. Seems a bit like scientology. Oh yeah you will get there
one day it only costs a lot of money and time..


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## kehcorpz (Aug 3, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> An analogous example: There is an English professor who teaches creative writing. A child comes to them wanting to learn to write. You say "Let me teach you the alphabet first". The child is angry but learns their alphabet, then asks again. Teacher tells them "Let me teach you vocabulary, grammar, and syntax". The child is frustrated but learns. The child asks again, and now that there is a foundation the teacher can move on to actually teaching the student to write.



First of, I heard other teachers say you should start with dummies early on!

I also didn't say start with dummies on the first day. But when he says that generally dummies make no sense before a certain degree then
this seems highly suspicious to me.


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 3, 2016)

Many movements can be done on the dummy early on, and is completely optional. The dummy *is* pretty necessary for learning the specific dummy form. If you are not learning the dummy form and its particular movements, then logically the only things you would practice on the dummy are things you would already be working on via the empty hand forms and in drills with a training partner, and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who says its more beneficial to practice with a dummy than with a live partner.  Sooooo..... the idea of showing up to class and working on a dummy instead of with a training partner just.... makes no sense. Unless your goal is get the satisfaction of whacking wooden arms because it feels cool, instead of learning the art in logical progression (there is plenty to chew on without ever touching a dummy).


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## kehcorpz (Aug 3, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> Unless your goal is get the satisfaction of whacking wooden arms because it feels cool, instead of learning the art in logical progression (there is plenty to chew on without ever touching a dummy).



Yes I would want that. 

I would AT LEAST be given the opportunity of deciding wether I want to practice with a dummy or not. 

With a dummy you could at least practice alone if you buy one. But you don't have a training partner at home for the drills.

This would make quite a difference if you can actually train stuff at home or if you just waste time between training sessions,


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## Phobius (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Yes I would want that.
> 
> I would AT LEAST be given the opportunity of deciding wether I want to practice with a dummy or not.
> 
> ...



If you want to train alone at home, for god sake do the forms. Do calisthenics. Build yourself a proper body and learn good body structure and posture. Dummy will not teach you anything unless you are good enough to understand what it can teach. Initially the only thing a dummy can be used for is mimic, this is adequate replacement for a partner on simpler drill but it does not give sufficient training to be a worthy aim.

Dummy does not teach you anything except what you yourself do. You can not do anything because you dont know what to train.

Once you know what you need to train then you do not need the dummy form, only the dummy to train on.

So it does not matter. When I say it takes too long for forms to get introduced I am not talking about waiting months, I am talking about some waiting 5-10 years. Also I do not consider learning dummy form as the secret juice. All forms are important and jumping straight to dummy form will just damage your skill since you are ignorant of what it is for.


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## Phobius (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> To me the only explanation is money. Dummies cost money and also teaching dummy forms to students cannot be done in huge places where you
> have 50 people running around. Doing drills is much easier you just need 2 people training with each other.
> 
> This highly bothers me when I feel like a school simply withholds dummies with silly explanations for monetary reasons.
> ...



1. Dummies do not replace drills! They are not sparring or application. Dummy is to improve attributes needed to fight, it does not teach fighting. Before you know how to fight you have no clue what attributes you need to improve.

2. You want a cheap school that charges nothing. Give up trying to find a dummy, where you are going they have no dummies.

3. Exams cost money for the instructor. You cost him time that he could have spent teaching more promising students of his that show loyalty and may some day take over or help out more. He charges you because when you quit 3 months later at least he did not just invest time for no benefit, having a job that pays lousy living in a shitty apartment and doing all he can to make ends meet.

4. Quit any hope of martial art if you do not think "you will get there one day, it only costs a lot of money and time" is a thing for you. Better watch YouTube, it is a faster path to becoming a master ninja.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> To me the only explanation is money. Dummies cost money and also teaching dummy forms to students cannot be done in huge places where you
> have 50 people running around. Doing drills is much easier you just need 2 people training with each other.
> 
> This highly bothers me when I feel like a school simply withholds dummies with silly explanations for monetary reasons.
> ...


How dare he try and save money. He should put his whole life savings into the school and sleep on the mats just so some lazy punk can waste his time and turn up and tell him he's doing everything wrong


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## kehcorpz (Aug 4, 2016)

But the forms are pretty useless imo. They teach you stuff where you don't even know what this is all about.
Bruce Lee also said that forms are useless.

This is like sitting at home with a car wheel mounted to your fesk and then you practice turning the wheel from side to side.
This doesn't teach you how to drive.


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## kehcorpz (Aug 4, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> H.
> 
> 3. Exams cost money for the instructor. You cost him time that he could have spent teaching more promising students of his that show loyalty and may some day take over or help out more. He charges you because when you quit 3 months later at least he did not just invest time for no benefit, having a job that pays lousy living in a shitty apartment and doing all he can to make ends meet.



I don't even want exams! But they force you to take them. Again, to make money.

Why force people to do silly exams? I want to learn to crush attackers not to get a paper to hang over my toilet. Gosh.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I don't even want exams! But they force you to take them. Again, to make money.
> 
> Why force people to do silly exams? I want to learn to crush attackers not to get a paper to hang over my toilet. Gosh.


Lol you crush attackers a gust of wind would probably put you down and no no one forces you to take exams shows how little you know you don't want to take them don't turn up to the test no one will force you to turn up you could easily stay a white belt forever it'd be pretty stupid because you'd be stuck learning the very basic moves forever but then again you're not known around here for how smart you are


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## kehcorpz (Aug 4, 2016)

I simply cannot stand it when I am forced to do something. This brings out the rebel in me.
I never could stand that.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But the forms are pretty useless imo. They teach you stuff where you don't even know what this is all about.
> Bruce Lee also said that forms are useless.
> 
> This is like sitting at home with a car wheel mounted to your fesk and then you practice turning the wheel from side to side.
> This doesn't teach you how to drive.


Kid you are absolutely hilariously dumb forms are basically shadow boxing a way to do cardio and practice basics without a partner.....why the hell am I even telling you this your probably to busy jerking off crouching tiger hidden dragon and crying because your local club won't teach you how to fly like jet li


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I simply cannot stand it when I am forced to do something. This brings out the rebel in me.
> I never could stand that.


Wow what a badass we're all shaking in our boots now watch out for the rebel sitting at his computer


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## kehcorpz (Aug 4, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> your probably to busy jerking off



very mature response...


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> very mature response...


Why should I bother giving a troll advice you're never going to train you're to lazy and arrogant. Tell you what we've got a section here members in motion post a video of yourself training hitting a punch bag shadow boxing anything lets see what you can actually do because you ask questions but then act like you have all the answers this is a genuine request do it. Prove that you're a fraction of a step above a pathetic keyboard warrior


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## Phobius (Aug 4, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I simply cannot stand it when I am forced to do something. This brings out the rebel in me.
> I never could stand that.



You did not do well in school, right?

Exams are a way to make sure a student has reached his/her milestone and that no information needed for a certain level of skill has been gone missing.

In your case do not worry, noone will force you to do an exam. There are no exams for YouTube warriors.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 4, 2016)

Phobius said:


> You did not do well in school, right?
> 
> Exams are a way to make sure a student has reached his/her milestone and that no information needed for a certain level of skill has been gone missing.
> 
> In your case do not worry, noone will force you to do an exam. There are no exams for YouTube warriors.


This guys got to be a troll surely I really can't believe anyone can be this dumb and annoying


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## anerlich (Aug 5, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I simply cannot stand it when I am forced to do something. This brings out the rebel in me.
> I never could stand that.



You aren't being forced to do anything, you are being offered a choice whether to train with a particular teacher or not. That teacher quite rightly has some structure to his curriculum and requires a certain amount of discipline and ... coachability. Teaching for money is perfectly acceptable. There are expenses for equipment, hall hire/rent, uniforms, etc. This is not a charity program.

No teacher could possibly live up to your continually changing and unreasonable standards and demands. What teacher in their right mind would want or put up with you as a student?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But the forms are pretty useless imo.


Thank you for sharing your opinion.  You do have a right to an opinion.  However, you are ignorant and show no promise of ever being open to learning.  So, your opinion is worthless.  You do have a right to your opinion, but when you share it, we have a right to laugh at you for it.

So.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! 

You are a fool.


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## Pat M (Aug 7, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But the forms are pretty useless imo. They teach you stuff where you don't even know what this is all about.
> Bruce Lee also said that forms are useless.
> 
> This is like sitting at home with a car wheel mounted to your fesk and then you practice turning the wheel from side to side.
> This doesn't teach you how to drive.



Hi kehcorpz,

thank you so much for joining the forum I feel you are going to provide endless entertainment and enjoyment to me reading your posts.

Are you an active student at a school?
If not join one.
Forms do have a purpose if you ask you may even find out what they are all about.
Given you do not see value in them as per what Bruce Lee thought, then why are you not seeking out a JKD school.

Plus I must ask what is this "fesk" with a wheel?


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## kehcorpz (Aug 7, 2016)

Pat M said:


> Are you an active student at a school?



No not yet. First I need to figure out what kind of martial art to do. I'm pretty confused about this.

All the time I thought wing chun is good cause it has a simple approach. But the more and more I see the more
sceptical I become that wing chun is really that helpful.


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## Pat M (Aug 8, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> No not yet. First I need to figure out what kind of martial art to do. I'm pretty confused about this.
> 
> All the time I thought wing chun is good cause it has a simple approach. But the more and more I see the more
> sceptical I become that wing chun is really that helpful.



Then I would suggest join a school.
Form of Martial Art?  
It does not matter, just get some time in a MA school environment. 
Ask no more qustions just give something anything a go.

It may take some time to find what suits you but you will never find it here or anywhere else on the Internet or in a book.

You have to touch, feel, like, or dislike.


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## JR 137 (Aug 8, 2016)

Pat M said:


> Then I would suggest join a school.
> Form of Martial Art?
> It does not matter, just get some time in a MA school environment.
> Ask no more qustions just give something anything a go.
> ...



This has been said to him in so many ways.  He'll respond by "I don't want to make a 12 contract commitment, find out it sucks after a week, and be forced to pay for the rest of the year."

As an FYI, there are ways out of a contract.  I'm sure you could convince a doctor that you have a medical condition which results in you no longer being able to train.  Let one see your posts here, and they'll easily come up with a mental illness without any hesitation.


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## JR 137 (Aug 8, 2016)

anerlich said:


> No teacher could possibly live up to your continually changing and unreasonable standards and demands. What teacher in their right mind would want or put up with you as a student?



This all day.  I highly doubt any teacher would hold him to a 12 month contract after about 5 minutes with him.  Even keeping him around solely as a punching bag would get quite old, and really fast too.


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## kakkattekoi (Aug 14, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I emailed one school and asked the instructor if they have dummies and how exactly this works, wether you can
> train on them whenever you like to.
> 
> He said that training on dummies makes no sense at all unless you have trained a few years and reached a certain degree I think he
> ...



i hv been learning wc for almost 2 years and not yet advanced to bil jee 
to me im not in a hurry to do wooden dummy  form since it involve a lot of technic from.the 3 forms.  but.occasionally i practice on it when no one is available for chi sao


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## kakkattekoi (Aug 14, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> But the forms are pretty useless imo. They teach you stuff where you don't even know what this is all about.
> Bruce Lee also said that forms are useless.
> 
> This is like sitting at home with a car wheel mounted to your fesk and then you practice turning the wheel from side to side.
> This doesn't teach you how to drive.


if u think forms are useless then dont invest your time in kung fu.  And understand the meaning behind what Bruce LEE said about forms are useless or better yet as someone mention JKD might be better 

btw wooden dummy still involve forms


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## Vajramusti (Aug 15, 2016)

kakkattekoi said:


> if u think forms are useless then dont invest your time in kung fu.  And understand the meaning behind what Bruce LEE said about forms are useless or better yet as someone mention JKD might be better
> 
> btw wooden dummy still involve forms


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
???? Lord Bruce never learned wing chun dummy form.


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## kakkattekoi (Aug 15, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ???? Lord Bruce never learned wing chun dummy form.


wasn't referring to that


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## Tames D (Aug 15, 2016)

He has won.


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## kakkattekoi (Aug 16, 2016)

wasnt referring 


Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ???? Lord Bruce never learned wing chun dummy form.


wasnt referring that particular form


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