# Thinking of starting



## Supra Vijai (Dec 4, 2010)

Hey guys (and girls),

I'm currently training in JMA - Ninjutsu to be exact - and have been for close to 3 years. While I love the art and find it versatile enough to cover a wide range of aspects, I'm finding I get a lot more of the traditional side of it rather than the "street". Now Ninjutsu itself was never designed for use in today's streets so that makes sense but it means I'm a little deficient with a few areas.

I sat in on a class at a Doce Pares training centre near my area and am interested in cross training. I've mentioned this to my sensei who's said he thinks I'd probably get a fair bit out of it as well. I was just hoping to get some clarification on the distinctions of the different systems? Doce Pares on here is listed as it's own system, I thought it was just the name of the school - similar to the Bujinkan with Ninjutsu for example. 

Also, from what I've read in the past, Arnis, Escrima, Kali etc are all just different names for the same art based on where it's from. Is that right or they actually different arts? Is there one in particular which is more suited to be adapted to street/modern self defence?

Also one final thing, I'm not huge on competitions/tournaments. Nothing against them or people in them but I'm after something that's a bit more "real" and combat based rather than sport based. Thoughts on that would be good too!

Thanks in advance


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## MJS (Dec 4, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Hey guys (and girls),
> 
> I'm currently training in JMA - Ninjutsu to be exact - and have been for close to 3 years. While I love the art and find it versatile enough to cover a wide range of aspects, I'm finding I get a lot more of the traditional side of it rather than the "street". Now Ninjutsu itself was never designed for use in today's streets so that makes sense but it means I'm a little deficient with a few areas.
> 
> ...


 
I've been training in Arnis (Remy Presas) for quite some time now, and I love it!  The weapon work and empty hand stuff is great and effective.  Its amazing how easy Arnis blends with my Kenpo, but also how easy things translate from empty hand to weapon.  

There are alot of similarities but alot of differences as well, as some of the arts tend to focus on specific things more than others.  For example, you'll probably see alot more knife stuff in Pekiti Tirsia and Sayoc.  This isn't to say knife stuff isnt in other FMAs, just that there may be more of a focus.  

As for the competition....IMO, you dont need to do something like that, but I would suggest doing some sparring/pressure testing at your own school.  You definately get a whole different feel to things, when the pace is picked up.  But no, you dont have to enter the Dog Bros events. LOL!  Unless you wanted to of course. 

Not sure what kind of FMA schools you have in your area, but I'd definately check them out.  Take a few trial classes, ask questions, including here, as there're alot of people here who can help you out.

Good luck and if you do decide to join up somewhere, I'm sure you'll enjoy it very much.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 4, 2010)

MJS said:


> I've been training in Arnis (Remy Presas) for quite some time now, and I love it! The weapon work and empty hand stuff is great and effective. Its amazing how easy Arnis blends with my Kenpo, but also how easy things translate from empty hand to weapon.
> 
> There are alot of similarities but alot of differences as well, as some of the arts tend to focus on specific things more than others. For example, you'll probably see alot more knife stuff in Pekiti Tirsia and Sayoc. This isn't to say knife stuff isnt in other FMAs, just that there may be more of a focus.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks MJS 

The instructor I was speaking to at Doce Pares said that their tournaments are more an in house affair with students from all the branches around the state getting together and sparring against each other. The aim being to expose you to training with/reacting to people you don't know with different skillsets etc. Now they list Arnis, Escrima and Kali as part of the school so would that mean that the focus will be shared between all 3?

Their website is http://www.doceparesaust.com/html/introduction.html If you (or anyone else with a spare moment) could take a look and give me some feedback that would be very appreciated!

I'm not sure if we have a Dog Bros school near me at all - I live in Melbourne, Australia. I've seen a couple of the freelance schools but when I spoke to them, they included entering competitions as a compulsary requirement of their students which put me off a little bit.

I know it's very early days yet given that I haven't even started to train but there are already similarities to taijutsu movements that I've noticed - little things like moving off the primal line, distancing which I think I can pick up fairly easily given my training so far. 
They are currently closed however, and will be reopening mid Jan 2011 after a short break so am thinking of starting up then!


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## MJS (Dec 4, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Thanks MJS
> 
> The instructor I was speaking to at Doce Pares said that their tournaments are more an in house affair with students from all the branches around the state getting together and sparring against each other. The aim being to expose you to training with/reacting to people you don't know with different skillsets etc. Now they list Arnis, Escrima and Kali as part of the school so would that mean that the focus will be shared between all 3?


 
The in-house events sound pretty cool.   As for the rest, unless I missed it, the only reference to the Arnis, Kali and Escrima was on the history page.  Sounds like the rule set that they use for the tournaments falls under the WEKAF, but from what I can tell, this is just a Doce Pares school.  



> Their website is http://www.doceparesaust.com/html/introduction.html If you (or anyone else with a spare moment) could take a look and give me some feedback that would be very appreciated!


 
The site looks great!  It appears that all of the teachers there have alot of skill.  Like I said, you have nothing to lose by checking it out and taking a lesson or two. 



> I'm not sure if we have a Dog Bros school near me at all - I live in Melbourne, Australia. I've seen a couple of the freelance schools but when I spoke to them, they included entering competitions as a compulsary requirement of their students which put me off a little bit.


 
You could probably check out the DB website to see if they have any affiliate schools in your area.



> I know it's very early days yet given that I haven't even started to train but there are already similarities to taijutsu movements that I've noticed - little things like moving off the primal line, distancing which I think I can pick up fairly easily given my training so far.
> They are currently closed however, and will be reopening mid Jan 2011 after a short break so am thinking of starting up then!


 
Alot of the stuff can seem confusing at first, but in no time, it should be easy to pick up.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 4, 2010)

As for the rest, unless I missed it, the only reference to the Arnis, Kali and Escrima was on the history page. Sounds like the rule set that they use for the tournaments falls under the WEKAF, but from what I can tell, this is just a Doce Pares school. 
 [/quote]

Hi sorry, forgot to mention that it lists Arnis-Escrima-Kali under the Doce Pares logo on their front door and on banners in the actual training area, not on the site.


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## MJS (Dec 4, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> As for the rest, unless I missed it, the only reference to the Arnis, Kali and Escrima was on the history page. Sounds like the rule set that they use for the tournaments falls under the WEKAF, but from what I can tell, this is just a Doce Pares school.


 
Hi sorry, forgot to mention that it lists Arnis-Escrima-Kali under the Doce Pares logo on their front door and on banners in the actual training area, not on the site.[/quote]

Hmm...well, in that case, you're probably going to have to ask the inst.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 4, 2010)

Will do! Thanks so much for your patience with all the questions! One last thing, I think I don't know where to look online to find accurate distinctions of differences between the systems/arts to find out what's covered. The best I've managed to do so far is find a forum which has the following post:

Doce Paras -  the Filipino Canate Family -a large group of materials in:

hand, 
single stick, 
double stick, 
knife
stick and knife 
"Bo" /staff material
"other" Filipino weapons
As large and big as the Ernesto Presas Arnis program which also covers these exact categories

I'm going to email the instructor once I get home and get the business card to double check all of this but I'm just trying to take some initiative and do my own research as well before flooding the instructors with questions - a trait that's encouraged to us by our Sensei in Ninjutsu.


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm probably going to be absolutely no help to you at all, but I know two of the guys on there listed as instructors, and although I don't do FMA (yet) I have been told that one tends to focus on the sticks side of things, whereas the other prefers the knife defence and empty hand work.  So you might find that other instructors are the same, and each have their own focus.

(Just doing my bit for the post count on the forum... )


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 5, 2010)

Emma said:


> I'm probably going to be absolutely no help to you at all, but I know two of the guys on there listed as instructors, and although I don't do FMA (yet) I have been told that one tends to focus on the sticks side of things, whereas the other prefers the knife defence and empty hand work.  So you might find that other instructors are the same, and each have their own focus.
> 
> (Just doing my bit for the post count on the forum... )



Thanks Emma! Quite the contrary, every little bit of info helps when you know nothing to start with!  I understand that everyone will have their favourite topics etc and it may come into the training a little but I'm not overly fussed as long as there is at least a taste of everything over time.

Nice work on helping the post count too lol. It's pretty much why I started posting in the first place and now I'm addicted to the site, keep checking back to see what's new


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2010)

You're welcome.

I want to have a go at the sticks class they run before the muay thai class I go to next year, but I'll have to tell my instructor he is NOT to laugh at me when I hit myself in the head with the stick! :lol:


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 5, 2010)

Emma said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> I want to have a go at the sticks class they run before the muay thai class I go to next year, but I'll have to tell my instructor he is NOT to laugh at me when I hit myself in the head with the stick! :lol:



Oh you study at Doce Pares? I'm thinking of heading down there on Monday night actually as a friend of mine is interested in the Muay Thai class they run. He just wants to see how it's run before he makes up his mind. 

Stick work isn't that hard on it's own. The whole trick to the spinning and the flair work is to go very slowly till you get the distancing and the wrist work right and then you can increase the pace with not too many dramas


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2010)

No, I'm northern Victoria, on the NSW border. You guys in Melb have such a great variety of different arts to chose from, up here there are a few muay thai clubs around, but not much else.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 5, 2010)

Haha that we do! Guess we're the lucky ones! Maybe you should move down here and expand your skillsets


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2010)

But then I'd have to live in Melbourne...lol


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 5, 2010)

We're not that bad!


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## billc (Dec 5, 2010)

Try looking at the FMAtalk.com area.  There are dedicated forums for some of the major styles of FMA.  The FMA are great, they are a lot of fun and you can gain a lot of insight into fighting with them.  Keep an eye open for the FMA that may not be practised out of a regular school.   Keep in mind you will find differences in the sword based FMA and the stick based FMA.  They are all fun but I find the sword based arts are a little more fun.  I have practised a few arts in my time, including Iaido and western fencing and I have to say IMO the FMA are the most clever when it comes to weapon work.  You'll also find some pretty interesting stories about the legends of FMA when you hang out in FMA circles.  There is a lot of practical combat experience among the teachers who  taught some of  the last generation of instructors.  Kali illustrisimo, Balintawak, DTS kali, Pekiti Tirsia, doce pares  they all have interesting stories. Good luck.  Enjoy.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 5, 2010)

Thanks Billchiak  Yeah from my experience with martial arts, I definitely prefer sword based techniques and I would like to think that's where I'm most proficient at but at the same time I want to expand the skill sets and try not favour any one thing hence the cross training. I have emailed the instructors to get an idea of the syllabus and the history etc so will definitely keep you posted on how I go. Thanks for the wishes too


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## Emma (Dec 5, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> We're not that bad!


I know, I'm just a country girl.


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## MJS (Dec 6, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Will do! Thanks so much for your patience with all the questions! One last thing, I think I don't know where to look online to find accurate distinctions of differences between the systems/arts to find out what's covered. The best I've managed to do so far is find a forum which has the following post:
> 
> Doce Paras - the Filipino Canate Family -a large group of materials in:
> 
> ...


 
You could do a general search, ie: google, for each respective system.  I'm sure a number of sites will pop up.  

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.   If/when you do check out the school, I'd be interested in hearing about it.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 6, 2010)

Emma - That's ok, we won't hold it against you 

MJS - Will do! I've emailed the instructor some questions as well and am waiting to hear back, the school reopens mid Jan after a 3 week break for Christmas so will be looking at trying a class out then and seeing how it goes. Will definitely keep you posted.


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## ap Oweyn (Dec 7, 2010)

Think of kali, eskrima, and arnis the same way you'd think of the term _kung fu_. All it means, really, is a Filipino martial art.  Not only do those terms NOT really tell you anything about the content of any given curriculum, but they change over time.  I started in Doce Pares myself.  At that time, _arnis_ was the favoured term.  Now, it's _eskrima_.  That doesn't reflect any change in material.  Just verbiage.  Similarly, you see a lot of schools using _kali_ now, where they might have formerly used another term.

So, arnis, eskrima, and kali all being very generic, you've already taken the next step: Identifying the specific style. Doce Pares in this case.  As MJS already stated, some styles will favour one aspect of FMA over another.  Some will focus on knife or stick or long range or short range or...

Doce Pares, I regard as being a fairly balanced representation of FMA, though I'd say that we were more impact based than blade based (when compared with something like Pekiti or Illustrisimo).  And not particularly focused on either long range (largo mano) or short range (corto).  There was content for each, but I felt like we spent most of our time at medio (medium) range.

Most FMA schools will hit on single stick, double stick, stick and dagger, single dagger, double dagger, and empty hand.  You might get some time with staff (sibat) or chain (kadena), or other more obscure weapons.  But you can pretty much bet on the former.

I've been practicing FMA since 1989, and have seen similarities with the other things I've trained in over the years, including the taisabaki of Shotokan karate.  So I'm not surprised to hear you say that it resembles taijutsu.

As far as competition, I don't think it's required.  Gearing up and doing some pressure testing, sure.  But not necessarily in a sport-based format.  I have competed in WEKAF stickfighting tournies before, but don't think it's essential.


Stuart


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks ap Oweyn, that's really helpful. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I've sent off an email to one of the instructors to try get a clearer understanding of the school's particular approach as ideally I'm after something more combative rather than sportive.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 9, 2010)

Just a quick update guys, I've been doing some research and have heard back from the instructor that I'd emailed. From everything I've gathered the particular approach used seems to be more sportive - practitioners aim to get up to 90 strikes per minute etc - whereas my interest is in something more combative for the time being. 

I also had a quick chat to my Sensei in Ninjutsu and he said that I could approach it as something different and have fun with it but to be honest, I think I'd be doing both arts a major disservice if I was to take up training with that mindset at this stage. 

I have a long way to go before I would feel confident enough in my understanding of my primary art before I could really take another art on lightly and not worry about it affecting my other training etc. I'm sorry if this has been a waste of all your time! 

I do sincerely appreciate the help and advice though and am not ruling out FMA for good, just putting it on the back burner for the time being till I can approach it with the focus it deserves  Again, thanks for all your help and all the best with your own training


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## ap Oweyn (Dec 10, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Just a quick update guys, I've been doing some research and have heard back from the instructor that I'd emailed. From everything I've gathered the particular approach used seems to be more sportive - practitioners aim to get up to 90 strikes per minute etc - whereas my interest is in something more combative for the time being.
> 
> I also had a quick chat to my Sensei in Ninjutsu and he said that I could approach it as something different and have fun with it but to be honest, I think I'd be doing both arts a major disservice if I was to take up training with that mindset at this stage.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer here.  You could put FMA training off until you've reached some benchmark or another in your current style.  Or you could start FMA now and, I believe, garner some genuine benefit from it pretty promptly.  But I don't think you _need_ to take up FMA to enjoy what you're doing now.  So it's really your call.

I certainly don't regard this discussion as a waste of time.  Regards.


Stuart


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## Blindside (Dec 10, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> Just a quick update guys, I've been doing some research and have heard back from the instructor that I'd emailed. From everything I've gathered the particular approach used seems to be more sportive - practitioners aim to get up to 90 strikes per minute etc - whereas my interest is in something more combative for the time being.
> 
> I also had a quick chat to my Sensei in Ninjutsu and he said that I could approach it as something different and have fun with it but to be honest, I think I'd be doing both arts a major disservice if I was to take up training with that mindset at this stage.
> 
> ...


 
Are there other options out there?  A quick Google search turned up:
http://amok.org.au/about.htm


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 10, 2010)

ap Oweyn said:


> I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer here. You could put FMA training off until you've reached some benchmark or another in your current style. Or you could start FMA now and, I believe, garner some genuine benefit from it pretty promptly. But I don't think you _need_ to take up FMA to enjoy what you're doing now. So it's really your call.
> 
> I certainly don't regard this discussion as a waste of time. Regards.
> 
> ...


 
I wasn't meaning I need to take up FMA to enjoy what I'm doing now. I do really enjoy Ninjutsu as is but would personally like to feel more confident in my abilities within the art before I add something else on with a totally different focus. As for benchmarks, I haven't really set one in terms of "I must be at this rank first" etc, it's just a confidence thing which I'm hoping will come sooner rather than later


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## Flying Crane (Dec 10, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> I also had a quick chat to my Sensei in Ninjutsu and he said that I could approach it as something different and have fun with it but to be honest, I think I'd be doing both arts a major disservice if I was to take up training with that mindset at this stage.


 
This is a very valid point, and I'm glad you recognize it.

It is possible to study more than one system at a time, many people do it, some of them even manage to do it well.  You need to keep some things in mind, however,  It all means a compromise.

Time spent training one art is time spent NOT training the other.  This means you are splitting your time and energy between them, and means that your development in BOTH will be slower and probably more frustrating.  The time issue alone guarantees this.

The other issue is that some systems may actually use training methods that contradict the methods used in another art.  If this is true in what you are doing, then training each art could actually make your other art worse.  

There are many many different arts out there.  It can be tempting to want to sample them all and think that you can incorporate all of them into your training.  This just isn't possible, if you want to develop solid skills and knowledge in any of them.  Most people cannot even keep up with one system.  A few people can manage to keep up with two, maybe even more, but it becomes really iffy as you go down that road.  Usually people end up with a superficial understanding in several arts, and no solid skills in any of them.  Being able to list a bunch of systems on your resume doesn't mean you can use them in any meaningful way.

Often people will spend a number of years drifting from one art to another, in an attempt to figure out what is the right thing for them.  This is OK, it's a bit of a self-discovery journey.  But eventually you gotta figure out what's the right thing for you, and then focus on that.  Make that your life's work.  Otherwise you are just going to keep drifting.  You may "know" all this stuff, but not on a meaningful level, not in a way that makes it really useful to you.

I'm dealing with this right now, in my own personal situation.  I've trained in more than one system over the years, and have maintained this for a long time.  About a year and a half ago my sifu introduced me to his sifu in the system that I was most interested in, of all the systems that I've studied.  I was accepted into that group and I am studying that system on a much deeper level.  I realised I needed to devote all of my energy and effort into that one system, or I simply would not do it justice.  It was time to grow up and stop collecting things.  Time to focus on something and make it truly meaningful.  For this last year I've simply drifted away from practicing almost any of the other material that I had learned, and this issue has been rolling around in the back of my head for all this time.  Recently some events came up that brought this to the forefront and forced me to face the issue and make a deliberate decision about it.  I have made my decision, and I'm happy for it, it's put things into perspective and into order for me.  I know what my focus is and I am content to let the other things fall away.

Just wanted to share some perspective.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 10, 2010)

Thanks Flying Crane. I was looking for a second art that is sufficiently different from Ninjutsu so as not to cause that confusion which you mention. Also I was after something with a more combative and "real world" approach so to speak. I find I get my philosophical wants more than satisfied by Ninjutsu and it's great for the traditional aspects and training but I was after something more street ready so I could add that in. 

What I'm thinking doing now is going through some private lessons with my Sensei with an RBSD focus in our own time and focus my main MA training on the one art for at least a little while longer


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## MJS (Dec 10, 2010)

Supra,

Regarding the sport feel that you got from them:  Was there anything else that gave you that feeling?  The 90 strikes could simply be that they're training their students to be quick with strikes.  This is just a guess, as I dont train in that art.

Regarding whether or not you'd be able to do more than 1 art at a time:  People do it all the time.  IMO, I get the impression that people think its impossible...its not.   I do suggest that people have a solid base art first, before diving into something else.  IMO I think alot comes down to the goals.  For myself, as someone who does Kenpo and Arnis, I'm not in a rush.  For the amount of time that I've been in Arnis, you'd figure I'd be more than a 1st degree BB.  I'm not concerned about rank...I'm concerned with learning the art.  That being said, yes, it is possible to train 2 arts, as long as you're not in a rush, and willing to work on small parts at a time.


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 10, 2010)

MJS,

The overall impression was due to a) the number of strikes etc along with a strong emphasis on speed as opposed to power and b) the emphasis on competitions that came up. 

My own perception of rank is that it's not important so to speak. I mean we all know of "juniors" who outclass their "seniors" in any particular art just due to their approach and vice versa. Honestly I couldn't say I have a strong enough base in my primary art just yet. 

As I mentioned, it's just not what I'm looking for right now as opposed to no interest at all  Hopefully with some private lessons covering the rbsd and some focussed training, I can reach that stage sooner rather than later and can look into getting into the world of FMA. From everything I've seen and heard about it so far, I am certainly interested in it


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## LabanB (Dec 26, 2010)

Just found this thread.

One of my first students trained in Ninjutsu as his primary art. He trained with me for about 6 months then had to drop out due to teacher training he was doing.

One of his fellow Ninjustsu students told me the rest of the class were glad when he dropped the FMA as his hand speed dropped back down to a level they could handle again!!!

Both arts are very different, so really won't negatively affect the other.

Bill


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## Supra Vijai (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks Bill, the speed is something I never doubted  Also good to hear that you had a student from Ninjutsu cross train with you. Do you happen to know what level he was at when he started FMA?


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