# How to deal with a 12 year old 2nd Dan



## nuhash (Jan 14, 2011)

Yes, i have met a 12 year old 2nd Dan but it was intended or anything.

I was promoting tkd club at school when one kid asked what dan my instructor was and i truthfully said 3rd and he said we has training under a 8th dan and he himself was a 2nd dan.

While it was harsh i just laughed in his face and called him a fake, the next day i apologised and asked if he could atleast come and watch the class, just so i could understand if he actually was any good but he turned to me and said "Thanks for apologising but I dont want to go because your instructor cant teach me anything because he is only a 3rd dan". At this stage i was absolutely fuming with rage, i was thinking a ruptured spleen would go well with such pig headed and arrogant comment but i just left.

Now i wondering what i could to prove that he cannot actually be a 2nd dan let alone a black belt, i was thinking of printing article 8 of the kukkiwon regulations to show that his belt is fake but i would like to know opinions of more experienced people.

P.S. please dont tell me to forget him, why? because i would feel slightly guilty that i am allowing a possible crooked instructor exploit the naiveness of a kid, even if he dissed my hogu

I also demoed poomsae koryo infront of a massive group of people at school knowing that it may show that if a green belt can do it then his 2nd dan doesnt mean anything at all, it worked on everyone except him


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> Now i wondering what i could to prove that he cannot actually be a 2nd dan let alone a black belt, i was thinking of printing article 8 of the kukkiwon regulations to show that his belt is fake but i would like to know opinions of more experienced people.


Since you said don't tell you to forget about him, I won't. That being said, there is no way to say someone is not a II Dan, unless the certificate is forged, false etc. There simply is no single world-wide standard on TKD ranks. What can be a II Dan in  school or group might not be 1 in another. That does not make it bad, wrong better etc, just different. For instance the ITF under Gen Choi has 9 years old as the youngest a child could get a black belt, but they had to wear a Junior Black Belt, which is half white & half black untill they were no longer a child & passed into the teenage years at 13 (thirTEEN). At this age they clock starts to tick for II Dan, making 14.5 yoa as the youngest someone could get a II Dan in the ITF. Of course even in the ITF that was not always followed, probably wasn't more that it was.
So I guess in the age of 6 year old kiddie black belts, then a II Dan 12 year old s not that bad!


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## dancingalone (Jan 14, 2011)

Beat him up and take his lunch money?


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## nuhash (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Since you said don't tell you to forget about him, I won't. That being said, there is no way to say someone is not a II Dan, unless the certificate is forged, false etc. There simply is no single world-wide standard on TKD ranks. What can be a II Dan in  school or group might not be 1 in another. That does not make it bad, wrong better etc, just different. For instance the ITF under Gen Choi has 9 years old as the youngest a child could get a black belt, but they had to wear a Junior Black Belt, which is half white & half black untill they were no longer a child & passed into the teenage years at 13 (thirTEEN). At this age they clock starts to tick for II Dan, making 14.5 yoa as the youngest someone could get a II Dan in the ITF. Of course even in the ITF that was not always followed, probably wasn't more that it was.
> So I guess in the age of 6 year old kiddie black belts, then a II Dan 12 year old s not that bad!


the problem is that he does WTF so officially he needs to be 16 to be 1st dan and 17 for 2nd dan


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## Manny (Jan 14, 2011)

What can I say? Forget him it's just an 8 yo boy? C'mon you know and I know that maybe his samboning gave him a second dan black belt and maybe he will not deserve it, because a) is too young to achieve that grade of mastery and b) he does not have the maturity, humbility, seriusness,etc,etc, to become even a black belt.

In my dojang I am the oldest student having a second dan black belt and I have a 13 y.o. who is a second poom and his brother (16) this year become a second dan black belt, are they better than me? in certain points yes, they are quicker than me, they have more stamina than me and..... that's all, they can not have the maturity and spiritual thing the years TKD has given me. In fact they (kids) always treat me almost like our sambonim because the age thing and because I have earned my senior black belt status inside and ourside the dojang.

Something that really piss me off is TKD sambinims giving such a hig grades (black belt) to children, for me the best age to start giving black belt status is 18 years old or more.

Maybe and just maybe in two years more Tony and Bob (the two brothers) will out rank me, they are young, they don't have a family to raise, they don't have a 10-12 hours job everyday, the only thing they have to do is go to school and go to dojang.

Manny


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## Tez3 (Jan 14, 2011)

I think he will find out the hard way that he's not as good as he thinks he is. 
My apologies in advance because I can't remember who posted it up a while back but they had a couple of children come from another club who were senior belts (Dan grades?) and they had been beaten up in the park by other children after boasting of their prowess at martial arts.

This child will find another same size etc as himself but a lower grade or maybe none at all who will hand his **** to him on a plate then I'm afraid he won't be thinking he's so special sadly.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> Yes, i have met a 12 year old 2nd Dan but it was intended or anything.
> 
> I was promoting tkd club at school when one kid asked what dan my instructor was and i truthfully said 3rd and he said we has training under a 8th dan and he himself was a 2nd dan.
> 
> ...


Ask him to teach you all the advanced stuff while he still knows it all.
Sean


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## Manny (Jan 14, 2011)

Just for the record, last july four or five children got their first poom black belt and the ages were beetwen 8 and 10 years can you imagine that maybe this kids in two years more can be second poom and maybe, just maybe one of them reaching 15-16 years old age would become a 3rd or 4th dan black belt? 

There are some things I don't get about TKD?

Manny


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## CoryKS (Jan 14, 2011)

Wow.  So you're promoting your club in a school and you openly mock a 12 year old and his training, and then when he refuses your invitation to show him The True Way and Light, you become filled with rage and consider violence against him?  

You might get more business for your school if you introduce yourself as a representative of your nearest competitor.


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## nuhash (Jan 14, 2011)

please delete


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## nuhash (Jan 14, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> Wow.  So you're promoting your club in a school and you openly mock a 12 year old and his training, and then when he refuses your invitation to show him The True Way and Light, you become filled with rage and consider violence against him?
> 
> You might get more business for your school if you introduce yourself as a representative of your nearest competitor.


It wasnt in open, it was a 1-1 conversation, and all i said was that afaik you cant be black belt under 16, and i was promoting classes at my academic school, i am not joined to a school as such, i just train with my instructor and he helps me get into competitions and such

also, referring to Manny, he was 1st dan 6 months ago and has only done tkd for only about 1-2 years


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Beat him up and take his lunch money?


LOL
Classic!


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## jthomas1600 (Jan 14, 2011)

I know you didn't want to hear "just forget about it", but it really is the only advice I would offer. I can't see doing anything else as being productive. I've come to see since I started TKD that there are many schools that have no standards when compared to the school I attend. I've also learned that there are many schools with much higher standards and expectations. Don't waste your time setting everyone else straight. That's just my $0.02


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> Yes, i have met a 12 year old 2nd Dan but it was intended or anything.
> 
> I was promoting tkd club at school when one kid asked what dan my instructor was and i truthfully said 3rd and he said we has training under a 8th dan and he himself was a 2nd dan.
> 
> ...


 
Punch him the nose and steal his lunch money and while you're at kick him in the balls.  

That said:
1) What gives you the right to laugh at him because he is a 2nd dan?  
2) What gives you the right to say he is a fake?
3) On what athourity do you have it that his instructor is crooked?
4) How old are you?  I can use the excuse of the 12 year old being naive about rank and knowldege, but what is your excuse?
5) Did he claim Kukkiwon 2nd dan KKW?  Perhaps he is a 2nd dan in his school with no KKW rank.  Perhaps he just doesn't realize a difference between poom rank and adult rank.  

Frankly you are in no position whatsoever to judge.  You don't know his school or his instructor and I would be willing to bet that if your instructor has integrity then he would tell you your actions were wrong.  If he thinks you are justified then perhaps he needs to re-adjust his outlook on things as well.

I could go on and on about how wrong you were on the way you handled the whole situation but I think you get the idea.  If not I will gladly explain more.


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## Manny (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> It wasnt in open, it was a 1-1 conversation, and all i said was that afaik you cant be black belt under 16, and i was promoting classes at my academic school, i am not joined to a school as such, i just train with my instructor and he helps me get into competitions and such
> 
> also, referring to Manny, he was 1st dan 6 months ago and has only done tkd for only about 1-2 years


 
Oh Boy!!! a second degree black belt with only 2 years of training?? Jesus!!! it took me 4-5 yerars to get my black belt and it took me 3 years to get my second one.

Now I see why this little fellow was a little harh to you, he simply does not have what it takes to become even a green belt.

manny


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Punch him the nose and steal his lunch money and while you're at kick him in the balls.
> 
> That said:
> 1) What gives you the right to laugh at him because he is a 2nd dan?
> ...


Beside the fact that he holds the regulations in his hand, he has logic on his side. I would not have laughed in the kids face, though.That was rude. He should have waited until he left the room to laugh.:mst:
Sean


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Beside the fact that he holds the regulations in his hand, he has logic on his side. I would not have laughed in the kids face, though.That was rude. He should have waited until he left the room to laugh.:mst:
> Sean


 
First he held referenced not held a regulation.  If the kid is a 2nd poom belt, he may look at that as a 2nd degree...2nd pooms at 12 are quite within regulations.  So there may have been a miscommunication on that part.  Also, did the kid claim to even have a 2nd KKW dan in the first place?  It could have been a school promotion not an organizational promotion...the kid may not even be in a KKW school.  

Next...He calls the kid's 8th dan instructor a crooked instructor and said his belt is a fake.  On who's authority?  A couple of years of his own personal experience?  Bottom line he does not have logic on his side he simply has assumptions based on his or his instructors skewed view of who should be a 2nd dan.


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> Yes, i have met a 12 year old 2nd Dan but it was intended or anything. I was promoting tkd club at school when one kid asked what dan my instructor was and i truthfully said 3rd and he said we has training under a 8th dan and he himself was a 2nd dan. While it was harsh i just laughed in his face and called him a fake, the next day i apologised and asked if he could atleast come and watch the class, just so i could understand if he actually was any good but he turned to me and said "Thanks for apologising but I dont want to go because your instructor cant teach me anything because he is only a 3rd dan". At this stage i was absolutely fuming with rage, i was thinking a ruptured spleen would go well with such pig headed and arrogant comment but i just left.




I think you are getting worked up over nothing. The key fact in this situation is not his rank, but his age. What do you care what a 12 year old thinks of you?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 14, 2011)

OK fine. But to an outsider looking in, there is merit to scoff at the kid. I agree that calling his instructor a fake was incendiary.
Sean


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## jks9199 (Jan 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think you are getting worked up over nothing. The key fact in this situation is not his rank, but his age. What do you care what a 12 year old thinks of you?


Exactly.

He's 12.  How do you know he was even telling the truth?

If you're really that concerned -- rather than having your own ego threatened -- bring it up to your instructor.

By the way -- does your instructor know that you're doing demonstrations at school?


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## terryl965 (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> the problem is that he does WTF so officially he needs to be 16 to be 1st dan and 17 for 2nd dan


 
But under KKW he could be a 2nd poom, which is a junior B.B.


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## CoryKS (Jan 14, 2011)

They need to quit worrying about crap like this and focus their attention on getting Bieber off the radio.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 14, 2011)

Manny said:


> Something that really piss me off is TKD sambinims giving such a hig grades (black belt) to children, for me the best age to start giving black belt status is 18 years old or more.



The funny thing is when I got my first dan I saw it as a huge thing, suddenly I was a mystical martial arts killing machine expert (I was young).  I got my 2nd Dan and I felt like the same jump all over again.

As the years have gone by I realised that black belts (dan or poom) doesn't mean much more than you can competently do all the basics.  I have no problem giving young kids poom grades, providing they can competently demonstrate all the skills and have an understanding of the principles.

In this case I agree with most of the posters that we don't know this young 2nd Dan/Poom's standard nor his instructor.  Sure he has a bad attitude in that because he's a 2nd Dan then a 3rd Dan can't teach him anything...but he's 12!


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 14, 2011)

Regardless of the legitimacy of his rank, it was, (and hopefully it has to do with him being 12 and not simply being omnipotent), quite rude and narrow minded not to think that you can learn anything from lower ranks.

Im a 4th in both of the arts I practice, going for 5th in one in a few months, I routinely train with lower ranks, and I am continuously amazed at how much one can learn from those who are ranked lower then oneself. A lower rank does not mean one or their abilities are in anyway inferior, it just means they havent traveled as far down the path as you have.


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Regardless of the legitimacy of his rank, it was, (and hopefully it has to do with him being 12 and not simply being omnipotent), quite rude and narrow minded not to think that you can learn anything from lower ranks.
> 
> Im a 4th in both of the arts I practice, going for 5th in one in a few months, I routinely train with lower ranks, and I am continuously amazed at how much one can learn from those who are ranked lower then oneself. A lower rank does not mean one or their abilities are in anyway inferior, it just means they havent traveled as far down the path as you have.


Well from that experience the 12 year old learn he could laugh at other people's ranks from the lower rank there.  All things said, I believe we can brush up the 12 year old's mindset to immaturity more than rudeness.


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## StudentCarl (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> I also demoed poomsae koryo infront of a massive group of people at school knowing that it may show that if a green belt can do it then his 2nd dan doesnt mean anything at all, it worked on everyone except him


 
So you're a green belt who demonstrated Koryo to prove a point? Have you thought through how else all this may be taken? Why is what he is or isn't any matter to you?

When I meet another Taekwondoin I treat him/her with courtesy, regardless of rank or skills.


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## Carol (Jan 14, 2011)

nuhash said:


> I also demoed poomsae koryo infront of a massive group of people at school knowing that it may show that if a green belt can do it then his 2nd dan doesnt mean anything at all, it worked on everyone except him


 
Eh, no.  It shows you may be able to hit a kid.  Big deal.


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## nuhash (Jan 14, 2011)

thanks for all the comments, i read through each one and i have gained quite an understanding, i understood it was rude to laugh at him and i did sincerely apologise to him but he threw it in my face, i didnt expect him to forgive me but i atleast expected him to acknowledge my apologies, furthermore, since watching me perform koryo he has apparently decided to ignore me according to a mutual friend and has spread rumours about me (which i can prove because he put it on facebook)

so by my understanding i have tried to right my wrongs, i have now decided to not do anything about him at all, this experience, while not being handled well, has helped me understand the concept of "actions speak louder than words", it is in our natural human instincts to question everything we hear and if it collides with what we have been taught then we become more aggressive about this matter and require stronger evidence to believe.

Several people have said "why this is a problem for me?", well as i said before it was a natural reaction for me, but it was not helped by his later reactions and so i understand that until writing this post it has been a problem because he was headstrong in not accepting or understanding that what colour belt you are wearing gives very little indication to your skill (he did say that my instructor was rubbish when he only knew his belt and said that it was impossible for me to do flying side kicks etc. and poomsae required for higher belts)

I have overcome this problem by understanding myself a bit more, i learnt quite a few things about myself, and i hope to use these findings in the future to take new challenges and find new things to learn. I just want to end this by saying thank you, and that some of the best lessons are learnt from mucking up.


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## Gorilla (Jan 14, 2011)

My son is a 3rd Poom and about to be 14.  He has no such arrogance.  He understands his role as a Poom belt.  He would never consider making such a remark.  If he did! he would have to answer to me and that would not go well for him.

The child's reaction is just as much about his parents as his Martial Arts Instructor! 

I have told my son that for those who question his qualifications you have nothing to prove.
You know what you have done and what you have accomplished and it does not matter what other people think. 

BTW when my son started Shotokan in August he went right in line with the white belts.


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## dbell (Jan 15, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Regardless of the legitimacy of his rank, it was, (and hopefully it has to do with him being 12 and not simply being omnipotent), quite rude and narrow minded not to think that you can learn anything from lower ranks.
> 
> Im a 4th in both of the arts I practice, going for 5th in one in a few months, I routinely train with lower ranks, and I am continuously amazed at how much one can learn from those who are ranked lower then oneself. A lower rank does not mean one or their abilities are in anyway inferior, it just means they havent traveled as far down the path as you have.




Oh how I agree!  When I lived in CA, there was an Aikido school up the road in which the Owner/Head Instructor was a 3rd Dan, and I was 6th Dan at the time.  I went to her class and trained under her for over a year, as I loved her Ki and movements.  She was a very good instructor to boot.  I'll learn from any one and everyone that is willing to teach me what ever they know, and will pay for it, if it is what I want to know.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2011)

While I agree it's probably better to ignore any slight a 12 year old 2nd Dan may make, I can see it's galling to work hard over time for your rank and to have a child who by virtue of their age can't have put much time in.  
I think nuhash has done well in posting because he's obviously learned something from this situation which has got to be a good thing. As for the 12 year old, as I said, pride goes before a fall.


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## granfire (Jan 15, 2011)

nuhash said:


> Yes, i have met a 12 year old 2nd Dan but it was intended or anything.
> 
> I was promoting tkd club at school when one kid asked what dan my instructor was and i truthfully said 3rd and he said we has training under a 8th dan and he himself was a 2nd dan.
> 
> ...



What, you are a green belt?

OK:
laughing at the kid was not called for. Although you apologized for it later, the damage has been done. I don't blame the kid for not wanting to come to your school, if this type of behavior is what is passed along.

It is lastly not up to you to proof anything. Or disproof.


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## granfire (Jan 15, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> They need to quit worrying about crap like this and focus their attention on getting Bieber off the radio.



Who's Bieber?


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## Lord-Humongous (Jan 15, 2011)

Guys, it sounds like the OP is a child too.  I wouldn't be surprised if he is a 14 year old and ran into a mouthy 12 year old that got him riled up.  The whole situation sounds too absurd to be the behaviour of an adult towards a child.  That said, it is of no matter how old you are, you should never discredit someone's rank or art or training or instructor.  It is incredibly discourteous and thus violates of the first tenet of TaeKwon Do.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 15, 2011)

lord-humungous said:


> Guys, it sounds like the OP is a child too. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a 14 year old and ran into a mouthy 12 year old that got him riled up. The whole situation sounds too absurd to be the behaviour of an adult towards a child.


 
Exactly. I was reading through this thread and that is exactly what I was thinking. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2011)

Kids are very good at winding adults up don't forget


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## mook jong man (Jan 15, 2011)




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## granfire (Jan 15, 2011)

lord-humungous said:


> Guys, it sounds like the OP is a child too.  I wouldn't be surprised if he is a 14 year old and ran into a mouthy 12 year old that got him riled up.  The whole situation sounds too absurd to be the behaviour of an adult towards a child.  That said, it is of no matter how old you are, you should never discredit someone's rank or art or training or instructor.  It is incredibly discourteous and thus violates of the first tenet of TaeKwon Do.




I sure hope so because the rank of Moma bear beats all BBs of the world! :lol:


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## hilly1981 (Jan 15, 2011)

If it were me, I would of just let it all slide. I mean, the kid is 12 and has not matured yet.


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## CoryKS (Jan 15, 2011)

granfire said:


> Who's Bieber?


 
Sorry, I meant to post that in the thread about Canada censoring Dire Straits.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jan 15, 2011)

Censoring Dire Straits?  Those bastards.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Kids are very good at winding adults up don't forget


Yes I do believe all models of kids world-wide come with those instructions!


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2011)

hilly1981 said:


> If it were me, I would of just let it all slide. I mean, the kid is 12 and has not matured yet.


 
which is a good reason for not being a 2nd Dan! or even a first.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 16, 2011)

lord-humungous said:


> Guys, it sounds like the OP is a child too. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a 14 year old and ran into a mouthy 12 year old that got him riled up. The whole situation sounds too absurd to be the behaviour of an adult towards a child. That said, it is of no matter how old you are, you should never discredit someone's rank or art or training or instructor. It is incredibly discourteous and thus violates of the first tenet of TaeKwon Do.


 
From the TKD Roll Call thread, posted 12 August, 2010:



nuhash said:


> Hi, my real name is Sameh (Sammy) and my middle name is Nuhash, on most other forums i am known as STEELSLASHER, it will probably change in the future
> 
> I am 16 and have been practicing ITF TKD for about 9 months (my instructor said i have been progressing really quickly for some odd reason), when i was younger i did wing chun but the training style was excessively boring (it focused mainly on patterns, i prefer to practice moves although patterns are really easy for me, recently perfected the tornado kick which was a huge accomplishment for me)
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I have to say I don't like gobby kids either and while I wouldn't have laughed the child would have have got a rather dry pithy comment made to it. I say that because I'm honest and don't sit at my keyboard being precious.
Nuhash was being honest too, maybe didn't do the right thing according to some but he says he's learnt and will know for the future so I wouldn't be hard on him. As for the 12 year old prodigy, well shame on the instructor I say but I expect he/she will be too busy counting their money to care.


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## jthomas1600 (Jan 16, 2011)

nuhash said:


> thanks for all the comments, i read through each one and i have gained quite an understanding, i understood it was rude to laugh at him and i did sincerely apologise to him but he threw it in my face, i didnt expect him to forgive me but i atleast expected him to acknowledge my apologies, furthermore, since watching me perform koryo he has apparently decided to ignore me according to a mutual friend and has spread rumours about me (which i can prove because he put it on facebook)
> 
> so by my understanding i have tried to right my wrongs, i have now decided to not do anything about him at all, this experience, while not being handled well, has helped me understand the concept of "actions speak louder than words", it is in our natural human instincts to question everything we hear and if it collides with what we have been taught then we become more aggressive about this matter and require stronger evidence to believe.
> 
> ...



The OP got hammered a little (not bad, just a little) for being immature and not handling the situation very well. The above response to all the comments might not be perfect, or even best, but I think it shows a willingness to at least try to mature and handle these situations better in the future. The OP says " i learnt quite a few things about myself, and i hope to use these  findings in the future to take new challenges and find new things to  learn. I just want to end this by saying thank you, and that some of the  best lessons are learnt from mucking up". That's really all you can ask of a kid I think.


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## granfire (Jan 16, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> The OP got hammered a little (not bad, just a little) for being immature and not handling the situation very well. The above response to all the comments might not be perfect, or even best, but I think it shows a willingness to at least try to mature and handle these situations better in the future. The OP says " i learnt quite a few things about myself, and i hope to use these  findings in the future to take new challenges and find new things to  learn. I just want to end this by saying thank you, and that some of the  best lessons are learnt from mucking up". That's really all you can ask of a kid I think.



I wish more people would analyse their mishaps and come to similar conclusions. A sign of maturity, which sadly too many people lack, regardles of age.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2011)

hilly1981 said:


> If it were me, I would of just let it all slide. I mean, the kid is 12 and has not matured yet.




That is the thing about kids, especially the ones who show that type of immaturity -- they don't add anything to the conversation, so it is difficult to take them seriously.


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> That is the thing about kids, especially the ones who show that type of immaturity -- they don't add anything to the conversation, so it is difficult to take them seriously.


 
 Another reason not to make a 12 year old a 2nd Dan.


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## leadleg (Jan 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Another reason not to make a 12 year old a 2nd Dan.


 There are no KKW dans at that age,there are however KKW poom belts at that age. 
If you think a BB is a killing machine then KKW poom is not what you are thinking of by any stretch of the imagination. KKW poom is more like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts on steroids,you get the merit badges and do the required forms,break some boards and there you are.Wait one year and bang,you test for second.We all know they are poom's,ie kids,ie nothing to sweat over.


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2011)

leadleg said:


> There are no KKW dans at that age,there are however KKW poom belts at that age.
> If you think a BB is a killing machine then KKW poom is not what you are thinking of by any stretch of the imagination. KKW poom is more like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts on steroids,you get the merit badges and do the required forms,break some boards and there you are.Wait one year and bang,you test for second.We all know they are poom's,ie kids,ie nothing to sweat over.


 
Why would I think a black belt is a killing machine? I've watched TKD in the Olympics.


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## leadleg (Jan 16, 2011)

Thats great! I heard noone watched TKD in the Olympics.


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Thats great! I heard noone watched TKD in the Olympics.


 

I watched on the BBC news when the British girl was robbed of her chance of gold medal by corrupt judges.


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## leadleg (Jan 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I watched on the BBC news when the British girl was robbed of her chance of gold medal by corrupt judges.


 Well,you know how these judges are when it comes to the English, they think you guys are a bit snobbish,I think they thought to teach ye a little humility.


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Well,you know how these judges are when it comes to the English, they think you guys are a bit snobbish,I think they thought to teach ye a little humility.


 
So, to you it's amusing that a young woman's dreams of Olympic gold are smashed then? Sarah is from Yorkshire and you'll find nowt snobby about her, she worked hard for years only to see her chances ruined by the judges favouring the Chinese girl.

Does this sound snobby or like a young woman to be proud of and see as a role model?


_"I started Taekwondo at the age of seven, back then Taekwondo wasn&#8242;t as popular as is it today and there were a lot less opportunities available to us. _
_I know what it&#8242;s like to have to raise money or find financial support from your parents/families just to attend competitions or to buy equipment. I also know how hard it is to have a full time job and try to find the time to train. Taekwondo has come such a long way and nowadays our elite athletes receive great support from UK Sport via the BTCB and Sport Taekwondo UK._
_We can&#8242;t all be blessed by being naturally talented and I don&#8242;t believe I am. I&#8242;ve always had to work hard to be where I am today, and I have always had great support and advice from the people around me, especially my Instructor Master Gary Sykes. Being a successful athlete can be like a rollercoaster, it&#8242;s not smooth ride and there have been so many ups and downs for myself and for every champion. _
_The message that I want to get across is that I have struggled at times, I have been seriously injured (a lot) and I know how hard it is to keep going when things seem to be going against you, but believe me, if you stick at it, believe in yourself and always give 100% in everything you do then you can achieve your goals whatever they may be."_

http://www.sarahstevenson.net/


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## granfire (Jan 16, 2011)

leadleg said:


> There are no KKW dans at that age,there are however KKW poom belts at that age.
> If you think a BB is a killing machine then KKW poom is not what you are thinking of by any stretch of the imagination. KKW poom is more like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts on steroids,you get the merit badges and do the required forms,break some boards and there you are.Wait one year and bang,you test for second.We all know they are poom's,ie kids,ie nothing to sweat over.




gross oversimplification.

I have met young BBs whos maturity impressed me and I was utterly astonished when I later heard how young they really were. And all had their stuff together. No, they were not KKW, nor did they train in a hard style, but all could land their kicks and do some damage.

I think it is part of the school climate if you raise a champion or a disgrace.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Another reason not to make a 12 year old a 2nd Dan.




I don't expect all that much maturity from a 2nd Dan, anymore than I would expect them to contribute meaningfully in the types of discussions that we are having here. I know when I was a 2nd Dan, I wouldn't have been able to participate in many of the discussions that flow over the internet. At 2nd Dan, I was concerned with other aspects of the martial arts.


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## job (Jan 16, 2011)

Rank? Hmmm What is it all about? This is America. Micky D of Kung Fu. No need to even comment on a 12 year old being so arrogant. This comes from somewhere. What is 10 years????? A drop in the bucket. You are who you are it is what it is. Belts hold up your pants. They are an adornment. I had an 8 year old tell me he was a junior black belt. I said; you must be happy with yourself. I left it at that. He was a nice young man. If we as instructors are handing out this kind of rank and responsibility to a person of this age. Shame on the instructor. When one of my younger students with a white belt can take a 6th dan to the mat and  control him in a hold down. What does this say for rank? When a parent has a child who is ranked so high. Do they understand the responsibility that this child holds? Building false security is one of the worst things you can do. It is great to have self confidence but it is sad to have false confidence.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> So, to you it's amusing that a young woman's dreams of Olympic gold are smashed then? Sarah is from Yorkshire and you'll find nowt snobby about her, she worked hard for years only to see her chances ruined by the judges favouring the Chinese girl.



Calm down Tez3.  Most people outside the UK wouldn't know how a Yorkshire accent sounds and how unsnobby it is.  At the end of the day, it's happened and the world has kept rotating.  People joke all the time about more serious things than someone missing out on a gold medal (I've read loads recently about the Australian floods).

It doesn't mean they don't think it was/is serious, it's just a light-hearted way of blowing off steam.

Don't get your knickers in a twist, we're well known for having a sense of humour in England...


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

job said:


> When one of my younger students with a white belt can take a 6th dan to the mat and control him in a hold down. What does this say for rank?



I'd probably say that you train your students in groundwork and this 6th Dan didn't train in groundwork, so given the rules of the 'contest' your student bested him in unfamiliar rules.  If you had said "no holds barred" I'd assume the 6th Dan could have pasted your white belt.  However, I'd also expect the 6th Dan to have refrained from pasting him as he was a "younger student".

Overall I'd say this says nothing about rank...


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Calm down Tez3. Most people outside the UK wouldn't know how a Yorkshire accent sounds and how unsnobby it is. At the end of the day, it's happened and the world has kept rotating. People joke all the time about more serious things than someone missing out on a gold medal (I've read loads recently about the Australian floods).
> 
> It doesn't mean they don't think it was/is serious, it's just a light-hearted way of blowing off steam.
> 
> Don't get your knickers in a twist, we're well known for having a sense of humour in England...


 
Oh dear you don't know me very well I'm afraid if you think I'm upset so please don't tell me to calm down. When you've been here a while you will realise that. I post always with tongue in cheek so don't get all po faced and precious please. If someone posts nonsense up they will get a sarky answer, simples.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I'd probably say that you train your students in groundwork and this 6th Dan didn't train in groundwork, so given the rules of the 'contest' your student bested him in unfamiliar rules.  If you had said "no holds barred" I'd assume the 6th Dan could have pasted your white belt.  However, I'd also expect the 6th Dan to have refrained from pasting him as he was a "younger student".
> 
> Overall I'd say this says nothing about rank...



+1.

Sometime ago we did something interesting in class. an opponent was supposed to hold us down, and we were to try to escape. To make it interesting, the other guy was allowed to grab us however we wanted without us resisting. The point of the exercise was to see if you could escape from a disadvantaged position. What I did to escape is something I only did because my trainingpartner and I know each other and we were both making the same assumptions about what could happen.

If I did what I did at e.g. a seminar to a white belt of another system, the chances are people would be very mad and I would be expelled.

And when I was helping teach kids JJ classes when I was younger, sometimes the kids would win because I did not do anything mean or very painful. Ditto for when I practiced free form groundwork during seminar breaks with students from other systems. The point was not to win or to lose but to have fun. It didn't say anything about who was good or bad.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't expect all that much maturity from a 2nd Dan, anymore than I would expect them to contribute meaningfully in the types of discussions that we are having here. I know when I was a 2nd Dan, I wouldn't have been able to participate in many of the discussions that flow over the internet. At 2nd Dan, I was concerned with other aspects of the martial arts.


 

LOL, and the English have just been accused of being snobby! What about all the people under the grade of 2nd Dan who perhaps have taken years to get to first because their system doesn't promote quickly? Or who perhaps don't grade at all but have been in martial arts a very long time? 
How old were you when you were 2nd Dan? 
Do you think therefore anyone under say 3rd Dan rank shouldn't be contributing anything on here then?


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 17, 2011)

A 2nd dan in Genbukan would have been training for about 12 - 14 years, and be over 20 at least. Given that time in the organization, I would expect a fair bit of maturity.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear you don't know me very well I'm afraid if you think I'm upset so please don't tell me to calm down. When you've been here a while you will realise that. I post always with tongue in cheek so don't get all po faced and precious please. If someone posts nonsense up they will get a sarky answer, simples.



Fair enough and the "nowt" did make me wonder if you were just being cheeky 

From one brit to another, understood


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Fair enough and the "nowt" did make me wonder if you were just being cheeky
> 
> From one brit to another, understood


 
 
We have a poster on here from Yorkshire who is now a 'Yorkshire-American' he hasn't been on for a while, busy serving in his new country's armed forces so over the years we've had a fair bit of 'Yorkshire' and Welsh too for that matter on here. I expect Yorkshirelad will turn up when he can though, he can't help being a Northerner but southerners do rule ok! (Hope that makes him post lol, we miss him!)


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> LOL, and the English have just been accused of being snobby! What about all the people under the grade of 2nd Dan who perhaps have taken years to get to first because their system doesn't promote quickly? Or who perhaps don't grade at all but have been in martial arts a very long time?
> How old were you when you were 2nd Dan?



That's a good point, Puunui is pretty senior in Taekwondo so I'd imagine he was quite young when he was a 2nd Dan.  Personally I was 18 when I got my second dan, so I'd say my immaturity in anything I'd have posted then was because of my age rather than grade and it could be that Puunui is seeing things similar - if he was a 2nd Dan very young then he'd naturally associate it with immaturity.

Maybe I'll also see things differently when I reach the higher grades.  I know I see 1st/2nd Dan very differently now to how I saw them when I was one 

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't contribute - often times people learn things when they post and debate, it may strengthen their opinion or change it, but in any case everyone learns.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> That's a good point, Puunui is pretty senior in Taekwondo so I'd imagine he was quite young when he was a 2nd Dan. Personally I was 18 when I got my second dan, so I'd say my immaturity in anything I'd have posted then was because of my age rather than grade and it could be that Puunui is seeing things similar - if he was a 2nd Dan very young then he'd naturally associate it with immaturity.
> 
> Maybe I'll also see things differently when I reach the higher grades. I know I see 1st/2nd Dan very differently now to how I saw them when I was one
> 
> That doesn't mean that they shouldn't contribute - often times people learn things when they post and debate, it may strengthen their opinion or change it, but in any case everyone learns.


 
When I was 18 I was in the RAF in a responsible job as were many of my colleagues, I didn't start martial arts until I was in my thirties and I've been doing them for over twenty years now. I got my 1st Dan in TSD ( also 1st kyu Wado Ryu) eight years ago, I haven't graded since as I've been too busy with MMA as well as TSD. I train occasionally with a TKD friend in his class just for the fun of it.
I know a great many 18 year olds, not all in martial arts but all are very mature, war does that to people sadly. My student who was killed was just 20, age isn't everything but a 12 year old 2nd Dan is ridiculous. We don't even grade 'junior' black belts, they have to be 18 at least, they also have to be able to hold their own against the MMA people, a 12 year old may be able to do kata/forms/patterns but lacks the strength and the 'brain' to be able to intelligently defend themselves or even teach.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> When I was 18 I was in the RAF in a responsible job as were many of my colleagues...I know a great many 18 year olds, not all in martial arts but all are very mature, war does that to people sadly.



War definitely adds maturity.  I wasn't meaning to say that there aren't mature 18 year olds (I felt fairly mature myself and was running a small Taekwondo club at 18).  Just that most 18 year olds aren't (as I'm sure your local paper will attest as well as mine does).



Tez3 said:


> We don't even grade 'junior' black belts, they have to be 18 at least, they also have to be able to hold their own against the MMA people, a 12 year old may be able to do kata/forms/patterns but lacks the strength and the 'brain' to be able to intelligently defend themselves or even teach.



Does that mean they should have no rank progression beyond 1st Kup then?  

For that matter, if you had someone start when they were 6 and someone start when they were 14 (assuming 4 years to black belt) should they be considered equal when they both turn 18 and 1st Dan?  The 6 year old starter has 12 years in the art compared to the 14 year old starter's 4 - and while I know they don't progress as much in the early years, surely the experience should count for something.

I'm not a fan of clubs giving juniors Dan grades (they can't get Kukkiwon Dan grades, but some independents call them 1st Dan), but I believe they should have progression and recognition of their years of training so I agree with the Kukkiwon's Poom grades.

Also, particularly as it's limited in how high they can go, I'm less bothered about 1st/2nd Dan now than I used to be.  I used to see 1st Dan as super ninja killing machine, but as I've progressed in Taekwondo my outlook has changed


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I expect Yorkshirelad will turn up when he can though, he can't help being a Northerner but southerners do rule ok! (Hope that makes him post lol, we miss him!)



Southerners are best ;-)

(I'm about 30 miles north of London BTW).


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> War definitely adds maturity. I wasn't meaning to say that there aren't mature 18 year olds (I felt fairly mature myself and was running a small Taekwondo club at 18). Just that most 18 year olds aren't (as I'm sure your local paper will attest as well as mine does).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
We only teach TSD and Judo to the children and they don't stay with us much beyond 3 years when they leave as their parents are posted out. It's one of the reasons we do MMA for the adults, we could do TSD/karate and grade them but as they are constantly either on exercise or deployment. MMA means they can come back and pick up where they left off, it's possible of course in a TMA but very discouraging. The military aren't bothered about rank in their martial arts really and prefer just to train.

We allow the children when they join us to keep the grade they reached at their last club ( some have had two or three clubs) it's unfair to take it away and make them start from scratch, it's bad enough having to change homes, schools, clubs etc without having to lose rank everytime. We just adjust around it, it probably wouldn't gain a purists approval but it means children can still train martial arts. We also try to teach them about as many other arts as we can, specifically the honourifics and etiquette so at their next club they won't feel too out of place. 

We haven't had a Dan graded child in yet, probably because the children don't stay at any club long enough to gain it but if we did it would be understood that the child doesn't rank with us as a Dan grade, we can't endorse that high a rank we've had nothing to do with awarding. We'd have to discuss it with the parents etc to see how we'd handle it. It would depend on the child, the age and experience, we wouldn't want to demote any child though so we'd come up with a compromise.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> We only teach TSD and Judo to the children and they don't stay with us much beyond 3 years when they leave as their parents are posted out. It's one of the reasons we do MMA for the adults, we could do TSD/karate and grade them but as they are constantly either on exercise or deployment. MMA means they can come back and pick up where they left off, it's possible of course in a TMA but very discouraging. The military aren't bothered about rank in their martial arts really and prefer just to train.



Very interesting.



Tez3 said:


> We also try to teach them about as many other arts as we can, specifically the honourifics and etiquette so at their next club they won't feel too out of place.



I think that's brilliant and very open thinking of you.  It's important for kids not to feel out of place and as you say, they have enough of that to deal with in the rest of their young lives.



Tez3 said:


> We haven't had a Dan graded child in yet, probably because the children don't stay at any club long enough to gain it but if we did it would be understood that the child doesn't rank with us as a Dan grade, we can't endorse that high a rank we've had nothing to do with awarding. We'd have to discuss it with the parents etc to see how we'd handle it. It would depend on the child, the age and experience, we wouldn't want to demote any child though so we'd come up with a compromise.



I'd be interested in hearing your approach if it ever happens...  

I think you actually have a very nice way of dealing with things from your fairly unique perspective.  It may explain some of the differences in thinking on here, so I want to thank you for taking the time to post it.  I really appreciate it.


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Thank you!

Our chief instructor was also army so he's had the same sort of martial arts career, doing whatever style was available wherever he was posted. It probably means we are more focused on what works rather than who our instructor's instructor was, our martial arts are very pragmatic. In fact I follow a lot of what Iain Abernethy does and go off and train on his seminars whenever I can, they also work very well for TKDists who are great attenders of his course.
While it would be nice to have the same style and instructor all your martial arts life, you can get very insular and cut off from other martial arts. With the MMA we are constantly on the look out for techniques that work, we have some students who have done TKD before they joined up and we've found TKD melds very nicely into MMA. We have people who've boxed, as well as most mainstream martial artists. Plenty of non martial artists as well start with us. It means rank isn't an issue with us, respect for everyone is much more important. 
The Gurkhas here do TKD as part of their training and every recruit starts as a white belt even though some are higher grades from before they joined up.They have patterns for the Kukri which are very good to watch.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

nuhash said:


> Yes, i have met a 12 year old 2nd Dan but it was intended or anything.
> 
> I was promoting tkd club at school when one kid asked what dan my instructor was and i truthfully said 3rd and he said we has training under a 8th dan and he himself was a 2nd dan.
> 
> While it was harsh i just laughed in his face and called him a fake, the next day i apologised and asked if he could atleast come and watch the class, just so i could understand if he actually was any good but he turned to me and said "Thanks for apologising but I dont want to go because your instructor cant teach me anything because he is only a 3rd dan".


If you called me a fake, I wouldn't attend your class either. Nor would I want to learn from your instructor. Its human nature. You cannot laugh at and insult someone and then expect them to want to come to you for classes; you've already set up an antagonistic environment.



nuhash said:


> At this stage i was absolutely fuming with rage, i was thinking a ruptured spleen would go well with such pig headed and arrogant comment but i just left.


The fact that you were fuming with rage demonstrates a serious lack of maturity on *your* end. You insulted him. You called him a fake. He will be defensive with you because you verbally attacked him first. You apologized. He declined your invitation on the basis of statistics: he trains under a paldan, you train under a samdan. He declined your invitation without returning you any insult and you are fuming with rage at him. Rage. Because a twelve year old that you insulted didn't want to come train with you.

*You* besmirched your instructor by behaving as you did. 

You need to take a long look in the mirror at your own behavior, young man. 



nuhash said:


> Now i wondering what i could to prove that he cannot actually be a 2nd dan let alone a black belt, i was thinking of printing article 8 of the kukkiwon regulations to show that his belt is fake but i would like to know opinions of more experienced people.


And what if his school is not Kukkiwon? What then?

And even if his school is Kukkiwon, this kid is what? Twelve? Like he knows the difference between a poom and a dan. There is no regulation in the Kukkiwon that requires poom grade students to be issued a belt of another color. Most schools give first poom students a black belt and a poom certificate. A twelve year old is going to be focused on that black belt, not on the color of his or her certificate.

Keep in mind, black belt is not a rank, but simply a belt that shows that the student has completed the geub grade material. That is. The rank is either first poom (under 15) or first dan (15 and over).



nuhash said:


> P.S. please dont tell me to forget him, why? because i would feel slightly guilty that i am allowing a possible crooked instructor exploit the naiveness of a kid, even if he dissed my hogu
> 
> I also demoed poomsae koryo infront of a massive group of people at school knowing that it may show that if a green belt can do it then his 2nd dan doesnt mean anything at all, it worked on everyone except him


Why is his second dan somehow meaningless just because you can do a blackbelt form at greenbelt? And when did your hogu come into the discussion?  Before or after you called him a fake?



Tez3 said:


> While I agree it's probably better to ignore any slight a 12 year old 2nd Dan may make, I can see it's galling to work hard over time for your rank and to have a child who by virtue of their age can't have put much time in.


Except that they're both children.  Nuhash promoted his club at school, which the twelve year old obviously attentds.  Sounds like middle school.  This isn't an adult who worked his or her butt off for over a decade being outranked by some child.  This is a child with eight to twelve months in being outranked by a kid with one to two years in.



Tez3 said:


> I think nuhash has done well in posting because he's obviously learned something from this situation which has got to be a good thing. As for the 12 year old, as I said, pride goes before a fall.


 
Everyone keeps commenting about how prideful or arrogant this twelve year old was. I don't know; I just don't see it. 

*1.* Kid sees other kid promoting TKD club. 
*2. *Kid askes kid who's promoting the club what rank his instructor is. 
*3. *Kid promoting club tells first kid that his instructor is third dan. 
*4.* First kid is asked his rank. 
*5.* Kid offered his rank by kid promoting TKD club . 
Kid promoting TKD club laughs at him and calls him a fake. 
*6.* Kid promoting club goes home and thinks about it and realizes that his behavior toward the other kid was not beneficial to promoting his TKD club so he apologizes and asks him to show up. 
*7. *The first kid, being twelve, is as gracious as he can reasonably be: he thanks the kid promoting the club for the apology but declines to come because he's already learning from an 8th dan and doesn't feel that he will benefit learning from a 3rd dan (who's green belt student just called him a fake the previous day). 

Doesn't sound like pride to me. Sounds like he's just trying to get the guy who insulted him off the phone. The OP posted a follow up that was a definite improvement, but he still seems to feel that his offering of an apology should result in the kid whom he insulted now wanting to come to his club. So accepting the apology apparently isn't good enough. 

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

To be fair the OP has not only stated that he was in the wrong and feels that it was a mistake so lambasting him even is a bit late, he already sees he's made a mistake and has said he'll learn from it.  12 year olds can be hugely annoying, they practice it a lot. One reason for not giving 12 year olds 2nd Dan 'status'. I may not have called the 12 year old a fake but I certainly wouldn't have thought a lot of him, his rank or his club/instructor. 
Everyone, even me, was young once and the whole point is that you make mistakes and you learn from them. Hopefully the 12 year old will as well as the OP but then the OP has the benefit of us to put him right :lol:


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## leadleg (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> So, to you it's amusing that a young woman's dreams of Olympic gold are smashed then? Sarah is from Yorkshire and you'll find nowt snobby about her, she worked hard for years only to see her chances ruined by the judges favouring the Chinese girl.
> 
> Does this sound snobby or like a young woman to be proud of and see as a role model?
> 
> ...


 Dear, I certainly did not mean to be more than tounge n' cheek here. I have to say though that Sarah being in KKW TKD at the age of seven was probably one of those 12 year old bb's you seem to despise. Also I think my joke would be less ofensive to her than your snide remarks on the sport she has trained so long and hard for.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> To be fair the OP has not only stated that he was in the wrong and feels that it was a mistake so lambasting him even is a bit late, he already sees he's made a mistake and has said he'll learn from it. 12 year olds can be hugely annoying, they practice it a lot. One reason for not giving 12 year olds 2nd Dan 'status'. I may not have called the 12 year old a fake but I certainly wouldn't have thought a lot of him, his rank or his club/instructor.


Well, to be fair to the instructor, we still don't know that the twelve year old really is a second dan or if he's even Kukkiwon.

To be fair to the twelve year old, Nuhash never demonstrated that the kid was annoying prior to being insulted.  I think that everyone just assumed that he was.  



Tez3 said:


> Everyone, even me, was young once and the whole point is that you make mistakes and you learn from them. Hopefully the 12 year old will as well as the OP but then the OP has the benefit of us to put him right :lol:


Indeed.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, to be fair to the instructor, we still don't know that the twelve year old really is a second dan or if he's even Kukkiwon.
> 
> To be fair to the twelve year old, Nuhash never demonstrated that the kid was annoying prior to being insulted. I think that everyone just assumed that he was.
> 
> ...


 

Of course he was annoying before being insulted , just by being a 12 year old boy, ask any 12 year old girl! In fact all 12 year old boys should be insulted :flame:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Of course he was annoying before being insulted , just by being a 12 year old boy, ask any 12 year old girl! In fact all 12 year old boys should be insulted :flame:


Yes, but fourteen and fifteen year olds have their own reputations for being annoying.  And I suspect that Nuhash is probably fourteen.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Dear, I certainly did not mean to be more than tounge n' cheek here. I have to say though that Sarah being in KKW TKD at the age of seven was probably one of those 12 year old bb's you seem to despise. Also I think my joke would be less ofensive to her than your snide remarks on the sport she has trained so long and hard for.


 
Not in the least snide, they are straight up, in your face.


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