# Questions about TSD versions, with Chuck Norris content



## Gaucho (Mar 28, 2018)

I'm new here.  Hello.  Enough of that....

Here's the easy one:  According to Wikipedia: """He joined the United States Air Force as an Air Policeman (AP) in 1958 and was sent to Osan Air Base, South Korea. It was there that Norris acquired the nickname _Chuck_ and began his training in Tang Soo Do (tangsudo)...."""

1) Does the vintage of Norris's beginning in TSD training indicate which flavor or school of TSD he was training in, or does anyone just know?

 I've read the threads here and a fair bit elsewhere about the history of TSD, the split, etc., and after a while I find it hard to recall who's who, never mind who's on first.  From Wikipedia: """Despite this unification effort, the kwans continued to teach their individual styles. Hwang Kee and a large constituent of the Moo Duk Kwan continued to develop a version of Tang Soo Do that eventually became what is now known as "Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan". This modified version of Tang Soo Do incorporates more fluid "soft" movements reminiscent of certain traditional Chinese martial arts. The World Tang Soo Do Association and the International Tang Soo Do Federation teach systems of Tang Soo Do that existed before the Taekwondo "merger" and before the development of modern Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. These versions of Tang Soo Do are heavily influenced by Korean culture and also appear to be related to Okinawan Karate as initially taught in Japan by Gichin Funakoshi.""""

2) Is it now the case that (a) The World Tang Soo Do Association, The International Tang Soo Do Federation, and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, are all outside The Big TKD Merger?

I am also interested to know which schools/styles are more martial and less sportish.

Thanks very much for any wisdom.


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## Buka (Mar 29, 2018)

Although a fan of TSD, I don't know the answers to your questions.

But I wanted to say Welcome to MartialTalk, Gaucho.


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## Gaucho (Mar 30, 2018)

Thanks, Barney.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2018)

Tang Soo Do is just the Korean pronunciation of the characters the Japanese would pronounce Karate-Do. So it's pretty generic. The Moo Duk Kwan was the biggest of the Kwan back then, but if I'm not mistaken, Tang Soo Do was used as a generic term by most. So that doesn't really tell us much about who he studied under, other than to say it was most likely Moo Duk Kwan simply because they were the largest system at the time. Like today, when the Kukkiwon is the largest org, making it safe to guess that a random TKD student studied Kukki-TKD.

GM HWANG, Kee was like most of the founders in that he trained in Shotokan, but he also reportedly studied some Northern Chinese arts, which makes it understandable that his Tang Soo Do (and eventually Soo Bahk Do) would be less linear than most Taekwondo systems.

Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do as they are taught today all (to the best of my knowledge) trace their lineage back to GM Hwang, and to a point in time after he split from the unification effort. That makes them, by definition, not a part of the unification or TKD, even though they share the same roots and are quite similar in execution and technique.


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## dancingalone (Mar 31, 2018)

Gaucho said:


> I'm new here.  Hello.  Enough of that....
> 
> 1) Does the vintage of Norris's beginning in TSD training indicate which flavor or school of TSD he was training in, or does anyone just know?



In my opinion, Norris' time at the Osan base would have predated any of the reinfusion of "Chinese" influences into the Moo Duk Kwan.  He would have trained in straight Korean karate if you ask me.  His instructor was JC Shin (who later founded WTSDA) according to this link:  Tang Soo Do World



Gaucho said:


> 2) Is it now the case that (a) The World Tang Soo Do Association, The International Tang Soo Do Federation, and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, are all outside The Big TKD Merger?



WTSDA and ITF (Tang Soo Do) both were founded after the kwan unification movement, so if you want a black and white answer, sure that seems clear cut to me.


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## Gaucho (Mar 31, 2018)

Thanks very much for all those answers.


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## Mitlov (Apr 11, 2018)

Gaucho said:


> I'm new here.  Hello.  Enough of that....
> 
> Here's the easy one:  According to Wikipedia: """He joined the United States Air Force as an Air Policeman (AP) in 1958 and was sent to Osan Air Base, South Korea. It was there that Norris acquired the nickname _Chuck_ and began his training in Tang Soo Do (tangsudo)...."""
> 
> ...



I don't know as a historic fact which group Mr. Norris had trained with, but as a current practitioner of his style, and with a background in JKA Shotokan, taekwondo, and a little bit of Chinese martial arts, I can weigh in a bit.  The mechanics and the forms are very heavily rooted in Shotokan, with some stylistic influence that feels to me like pre-Olympic TKD (stances are a bit longer and wider than Stotokan, roundhouse kicks are with the top of the foot instead of the ball, etc).  Compared to modern JKA Shotokan, I think there's more emphasis on padwork and sparring and less emphasis on interpreting forms (kata bunkai), but setting aside training emphasis and looking at the underlying mechanics, they are very similar.  I see little or no elements which I would characterise as soft, circular, or stereotypically CMA-ish.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 28, 2018)

Gaucho said:


> I'm new here.  Hello.  Enough of that....
> 
> Here's the easy one:  According to Wikipedia: """He joined the United States Air Force as an Air Policeman (AP) in 1958 and was sent to Osan Air Base, South Korea. It was there that Norris acquired the nickname _Chuck_ and began his training in Tang Soo Do (tangsudo)...."""
> 
> ...



Thank you for your question. It is hard to follow Korean Martial Arts history.

Most of the Taekwondo I have seen looks a little different from what I was taught.
I have been trying to find out what I was taught in the early 1970's.
Karate was on the windows and I was told it was Taekwondo, some students said it was Moo Duk Kwan.
So l have been trying to get information on my *Grandmaster Saejin “Jack” Hwang.*

From my reading he put karate on the windows because people did not know what Taekwondo was.
He taught* Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan* in the 1960's, but sometime later when he join the ITF 
and later WTF he changed the name to Taekwondo.

In 1995 *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan *changed to *Soo* *Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.*
So I guess I was taught *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan, *which is now* Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan*
It is hard to find your roots, because the names keep changing.

Then again I discovered Hwang Kee found a 400 page wooded book and changed *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in 1957.*
So my GM would have been teaching the *Pre 1957* *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan.*
So I guess I was taught something that does not exist any more.
I am such a dinosaur.

Does any one know if Hwang Kee taught Saejin Hwang?
I have not found it written.
In 1932 Saejin Hwang was born in Korea. Since he did not come to the states until 1957,
it is only logical one would think he was taught by Hwang Kee.


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## Buka (Dec 28, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> From my reading he put karate on the windows because people did not know what Taekwondo was.
> He taught* Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan* in the 1960's, but sometime later when he join the ITF
> and later WTF he changed the name to Taekwondo.



I ran into this very thing in 1973. Just down the street from our dojo was the local high school. A huge sign was on the schools manicured grounds, right by the street for all to see.
It read "KARATE TOURNAMENT, SATURDAY".

We were pumped. A half dozen of us went, only to find that it was a TKD tournament. Three Korean gentlemen in blue AAU sport coats told us we couldn't compete. As they were doing so they kept speaking to each other in Korean and laughing at us. Right in our faces.

But some guys don't forget. It's well known that Boston's three greatest pastimes are sports, politics and revenge.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 28, 2018)

Buka said:


> I ran into this very thing in 1973. Just down the street from our dojo was the local high school. A huge sign was on the schools manicured grounds, right by the street for all to see.
> It read "KARATE TOURNAMENT, SATURDAY".
> 
> We were pumped. A half dozen of us went, only to find that it was a TKD tournament. Three Korean gentlemen in blue AAU sport coats told us we couldn't compete. As they were doing so they kept speaking to each other in Korean and laughing at us. Right in our faces.
> ...


Congratulations on your MT Moderator.


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## Buka (Dec 28, 2018)

Thanks, Bruce.


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## Mitlov (Jan 1, 2019)

Buka said:


> I ran into this very thing in 1973. Just down the street from our dojo was the local high school. A huge sign was on the schools manicured grounds, right by the street for all to see.
> It read "KARATE TOURNAMENT, SATURDAY".
> 
> We were pumped. A half dozen of us went, only to find that it was a TKD tournament. Three Korean gentlemen in blue AAU sport coats told us we couldn't compete. As they were doing so they kept speaking to each other in Korean and laughing at us. Right in our faces.
> ...



I thought Boston's top three pastimes were road construction, hating the Yankees, and abolishing the letter R


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## Buka (Jan 1, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> I thought Boston's top three pastimes were road construction, hating the Yankees, and abolishing the letter R



Those are part of their Ten Commandments, yes. 

And as a kid who grew up a vocal Yankees fan......I was a sinner.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Gaucho said:


> 2) Is it now the case that (a) The World Tang Soo Do Association, The International Tang Soo Do Federation, and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, are all outside The Big TKD Merger?.



Strange question. They are by definition outside of the TKD merger since they use the name Tang Soo Do, not TaeKwonDo.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> Ibut setting aside training emphasis and looking at the underlying mechanics, they are very similar. .



Hand techniques similar to Shotokan yes, but kicks are more similar to ITF TaeKwonDo than Shotokan, even taking individual differences into account. There may be Tang Soo Do branches that kick differently from ITF but I have yet to see it.


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