# Teacher Who Let Students "Vote Out" 5 y.o. with Asperger's Syndrome Gets Job Back



## Carol (Jun 13, 2009)

Here's the original incident:
http://www.disaboom.com/Blogs/disab...ger-s-syndrome-out-of-kindergarten-class.aspx

And the decision:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-student-voted-out-bn061109,0,6421556.story
[FONT=georgia,palatino][/FONT]


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jun 13, 2009)

Phht. The teachers are making excuses for one of their own, Oh its the schools fault, because it just cant be hers.

Gimmie a break. She should have been fired and charged. Period.

You do not, ever put a five year old through that kind of emotional humiliation regardless as to what they have done. Any adult, particularly a teacher should have know better. 

Fire the witch.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jun 13, 2009)

> Asked what she would say to Barton, Portillo said she wishes her well.
> 
> "I hope they find the help they need," she said.


 
But not, "I'm sorry."

Pax,

Chris


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 13, 2009)

> "I don't necessarily agree with what Mrs. Portillo did that day," she added. "But I can understand it."



Really?  I can't.  Shame as discipline for a social developmentlly affected child?  Maybe she needs to take a year or three off and take some sensitivity training and maybe a class or two on Aspergers and its other autism-related disorders ... you know, since there's one in almost every class now.


----------



## Carol (Jun 13, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> But not, "I'm sorry."
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


 

Aye.  And I read that and thought that I hope they find the help they need too, because they sure aren't going to find it in that school disctrict.

No child left behind, unless the teacher just doesn't wanna deal with 'em.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 13, 2009)

I am sure the more compasionate amongst us look at this and say what a poor child.

I look at the other 15 students and teacher and say what a shame they all have to deal with this pain in the *** kid, because the parents and administration has deemed it better for him to be amongst all the other kids, when it is better for the other 15 kids to not have him there disrupting their learning, and wasting their time.

I feel sorry for the kid, but putting the pressure of accepting his behavior due to his syndrome is horrible to put on the other kids and teacher.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 13, 2009)

No child left behind ... except this kid ... and thousands more like him.

I guess it's no big deal until it hits home.

I think it's going to be a century or more before the herd learns to help out and encourage the young.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 13, 2009)

Noone said anything about leave him behind, thats you wanting to feel superior and wanting to try to instill guilt in others.

The fact is my father has been a teacher for 38 years, longest by far in his districts history, has continously shown the highest percentage increase in grade level increase in skills from beginning of year to end of year for the entire system.

These kids they are shoving into normal classrooms, to integrate and give these kids a more normalized atmosphere is causing great harm and detriment to the other students in the classroom. Incredible amounts of time are spent dealing with, and containing these kids rather then teaching other kids. This is a relatively new occurance. Most teachers are completely against it, infuriated by it, and leaving the public school system to private schools to get away from it.
These kids do not belong in a normal classroom, wasting the other students time.
Oh BTW my dad had 34 kids in his class, 4 of these project kids, the amount of time wasted on these 4 was astronomical.
Like I said the way we have changed things, and continue to change things does nothing to drive people to excell. Students that excell are left to their own devices as they are"priveledged" and the needy few are demanded to be given more attention.
Hello Mediocre States of America.....Goodbye the Land of Opportunity...unless of course you are one of the few that are weak, disabled, or otherwise unfortunate that can hold the rest of the country hostage to your demands.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 13, 2009)

Even if all that's true...does it justify "voting out" a 5 year old kid?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 13, 2009)

It sounds horrible out of context.
I think that more likely then not there is alot more to the story then was written, especially considering the lady still has her job.
I imagine from what I have read that the kid was a constant source of disruptions to everyone in the class, and I can only assume that the teacher was at the end of the options she could exercise and possibly tried to see if "peer pressure" might solve the problem.

We can only speculate on what happened, but I am going to give the benefit of the doubt with the teacher in this situation, as It appears nothing was done to help her deal with a problem child, and she was actively seeking solutions. Could it have been handled better?? Possibly noone here knows.
Could it have been painful for that boy to be voted out? Probably..
was it painful for every other student in that class to deal with constant interruptions? Absolutely. So whats the worst case there?


----------



## arnisador (Jun 13, 2009)

This couldn't possibly have been the right solution. If she needed to complain to her bosses about needing more help or to have the child removed, she should have.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 13, 2009)

Um she did, multiple times. Nothing changed, nothing had worked. A little creative attempt at curbing the problem is what this was in my view of the matter. I mean seriously the teacher basically had the other kids in class tell this kid what they thought of his behavior, told him they wanted him to stop it, and then voted to give the kid a "time out" he was made to stand outside the classroom at the door..... what is actually so bad about that?
The Principals of these schools don't care, they tell the teachers to deal with the problems, they give the teachers hell if they send a disruptive student to the office for counseling or discipline. If you think the administration at these schools is there to help the teachers you are mistaken big time.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Um she did, multiple times. Nothing changed, nothing had worked. A little creative attempt at curbing the problem is what this was in my view of the matter. I mean seriously the teacher basically had the other kids in class tell this kid what they thought of his behavior, told him they wanted him to stop it, and then voted to give the kid a "time out" he was made to stand outside the classroom at the door..... what is actually so bad about that?
> The Principals of these schools don't care, they tell the teachers to deal with the problems, they give the teachers hell if they send a disruptive student to the office for counseling or discipline. If you think the administration at these schools is there to help the teachers you are mistaken big time.



What you probably are not familiar with is IDEA - the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act - which is a federal law that states all persons of school age are entitled to a free and appropriate education.

While a monumental move forward in the education of special needs persons, there are many problems with IDEA as well - the most notable among them likely is the lack of funding to accompany the law. 

Here's what goes down, oftentimes, especially when a child is so young:

Someone convinces school and/or district administrators that the child needs to be evaluated for special needs.  The special education administrator from the child's neighborhood school will invite the parents to a conference and ask their permission to evaluate the child for special needs consideration.  If the parents do not consent, the school cannot evaluate and the child (as well as the teacher and classmates) become trapped.  Usually, in that case, the teacher will ask for a TA or in-class assistant and they are usually denied, as the first portion of any district budget to get cut (behind music and arts of course) is the TA and special education portion.

But ... voting a child out of a classroom is not only NOT the answer, it can permanently damage this child psychologically and THAT, friend, is a much deeper wound for that child than any frustration level will ever harm any healthy child.  Complete rejection and humiliation at such a young age almost always brings about the most severe of consequences.

Most teachers have ZERO training in dealing with special needs students and usually try conventional remedies and strategies which almost never work on special needs children.  Ironically, many minor changes will help the higher functioning children cope not only educationally but socially and like it or not, much of what happens in school is completely dependent upon social ability and social learning.

A rash action by this teacher.  I firmly believe she needs further training and SUPPORT IN THE CLASSROOM.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 17, 2009)

I appreciate what you are saying.
I simply disagree with having someone this distracting there in the first place.
I simply do not believe that so many kids and adults need to suffer to accomodate one kid.
I simply do not see anything wrong with giving those other students a voice in sharing their feelings with the problem child.
I simply do not see anything wrong with trying a different approach to a solution when the standard approach had obviously not worked in any capacity at that point.
You will not be able to change my mind, I have a feeling I wont be able to change yours. Thats fine, I have first hand experience with these situations, I think its a huge part of the problem why America is going downhill at a disgustingly scary rate.
I never said the kid did not have a right to an education, I never said he did not have the right to be in school. I just think that after a certain point he needs to be removed from the classroom. If he can get his act together elsewhere then maybe he can return, but this is not working for anyone, and to only point blame at the teacher or other students is just wrong.

Oh ya and using any decree, or law, or anything having to do with our existing education system is a joke. Our Education system is so broken in the United States its not even funny, the entire thing needs to completely scrapped and redone from the bottom up. The people in charge of our education system need to be executed or expatriated and we need to get new people who are competant in place.... I am not talking about the teachers... even though some of them are horrible too, I am talking about the government people, the district people, the administration people, etc. Its such an outdated, misplaced, misunderstood hodgepodge of contradicting policies and selfish programs put together to milk money from the kids to the greedy fatcats. It does not teach people how to be self sufficient, it teachs them little more then to go find a job working for someone else and being a part of a machine..


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm not trying to change your mind.

Just pointing out the error in her actions, trying to enlighten as to the process and what happens with it.

I don't disagree that the system is broken ... I just see a value in people like this child where you apparently do not.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 17, 2009)

Some children need special attention and should be given it, but not at the expense of those that do not require it because it is not fair to them nor fair to society as a whole. 

Exceptional children should be encouraged to be exceptional. To hold them back educationaly and developmentally hinders their potential and the potential good they could contribute to society as adults. 

That being said, I feel this teacher was way out of line and extrememly insensitive to this child's needs and feelings. Doesn't qualify as child abuse? My *** it doesn't! That child will be haunted by that ordeal for life most likely. There's no telling what damage was done to his developing self-esteem and ego. She has no business teaching children exhibiting behavior like that IMHO. 

If the child was being disruptive to the class it should have been proplerly addressed with superiors and parents. Of course, continueing counter-productive legislation doesn't help our educational system either. Bottom line: our Educational System needs tons of work and it ain't getting any better. 

You'd think something that has such a wide ranging and lasting impact on our society such as education would be given more consideration and support, but it rarely is. Boggles the mind...:idunno:


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> If the child was being disruptive to the class it should have been proplerly addressed with superiors and parents.



She definitely should have received in-class support and for the administration to ignore/reject it was misguided and wrong.



> You'd think something that has such a wide ranging and lasting impact on our society such as education would be given more consideration and support, but it rarely is. Boggles the mind...:idunno:



Indeed. :asian:

It should be said that some slight alterations to conventions and involving the classmates through fostering compassion and tolerance, such a situation *can be* transformed into quite the opportunity and increase learning in unaffected children.  Now this can't always be the case, of course ... but teaching inclusion can be much more productive for all involved.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 17, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I'm not trying to change your mind.
> 
> Just pointing out the error in her actions, trying to enlighten as to the process and what happens with it.
> 
> I don't disagree that the system is broken ... I just see a value in people like this child where you apparently do not.


 
If you want to get mean and nasty and try to insinuate something have some spine and go ahead and say it.

First of all I never said this kid had no value, please feel free to go back and find anywhere in my posts that I said that.
See thats a problem with people like you, instead of addressing the comments I actually said and evaluating whether they make sense or not, you immediately want to demonize the teacher and anyone who might support in anyway what happened.
The syndrome this kid is possibly being diagnosed with....last I heard he had not been diagnosed... is the same syndrome that many people people believe that some of the brightest in our history may have had... Einstein anyone? I simply said that a continuously disruptive person, regardless of which end of the spectrum they may reside in when it comes to worth, or intelligence, etc. should not be in a class screwing up the process for 16 other kids..... kids mess up occasionally, thats not the issue, this kid was constant. Constant interuptions and problems is not good for the other students and the teacher.... can you not agree with that?

Lets try to deal with the actual comments I made and not try to make me look like a bad guy because you want to make some obscure point and use the classic liberal tactic of villainizing anyone who disagrees with you.
Hey I guess it works though...
The Democratic party used it very successfully the last election..
I guess most people just listen to who sounds the most compassionate, not who actually makes sound common sense...... and yes this last part was a bit of a dig, after a few such digs from you I guess I had one coming. So the question I am really curious about how you address is...
Why do the other 16 kids and teacher have to put up with this behavior and disruptions to their education?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

16 five year olds in one class, wow, no wonder they had trouble!!

LuckKboxer, do you drink an huge amount of coffee? thats some astringent posting!


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> 16 five year olds in one class, wow, no wonder they had trouble!!


 
Are you kidding? That's a small class!


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> 16 five year olds in one class, wow, no wonder they had trouble!!
> 
> LuckKboxer, do you drink an huge amount of coffee? thats some astringent posting!


 
Guilty as charged..... but I think more then the coffee is the fact that I just get so tired of having conversations with people who seem to choose to ignore certain parts of the conversation, or add things that were never said to try to make a point, or try to lump people into a certain category to try to label them as something to justify not listening, or worse, to accuse them of some type of villainy....racist, sexism, any ism actually.
It seems to be the tool of choice for alot of people now days, and its just pathetic.


----------



## KELLYG (Jun 17, 2009)

From a Teacher's point of view she was probable out of options as to how to handle the child.  If, in previous post it is suggested that the child go through screening processes to determined a "special needs" child and the parent can over rule the screening process, coupled with the fact that the schools (especially around here) are laying off teachers and increasing class sizes, she probably did not have the support or back up she needed to handle this problem.  I thought when I read the article at first that he child was being permanently removed from the class but if he was being sent out side to cool his heels so to speak what's the big deal.  As for the public dressing down by his peers, some times a child will make positive behavior changes at the request of there peers vs an adult. Has he been formally diagnosed as of yet? 

From a student's point of view. When I went Through school there was usually 25 to 30 kids in class.  If one or two of them were as disruptive as this child was/is then we would not be able to get anything accomplished.  The classes that I took were run at a slow speed anyway.  It would take 6 mo to review one play that I read in a weekend so I could not imagine how slowly the class would move along with several disruptive children in it. 
As far as being sent out of class I can remember being sent out of class a time or two and it did noting to damage my self esteem.   

This child needs to be place in a situation that honers him as well as his fellow students, that does not mean main stream school environment.  He was probably not getting what he really needed out of class either.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Guilty as charged..... but I think more then the coffee is the fact that I just get so tired of having conversations with people who seem to choose to ignore certain parts of the conversation, or add things that were never said to try to make a point, or try to lump people into a certain category to try to label them as something to justify not listening, or worse, to accuse them of some type of villainy....racist, sexism, any ism actually.
> It seems to be the tool of choice for alot of people now days, and its just pathetic.



It also seems personal attacks are becoming fashionable.  

It seemed to me we were discussing whether what this teacher did was right or not. You posted your opinion, I posted mine.  

There are numerous values (as well as drawbacks, as I pointed out) I see in having a challenging child in a classroom.  From your vehement posts, it sounds like none of these values would ring any truth for you, so my opinion was stated.

I'm not sure what it is you want me to have backbone for.  I have not insinuated anything, I have not accused you of anything. I stated my opinion based on the observation of your post.  Why personally attack me?


----------



## jim777 (Jun 17, 2009)

chrispillertkd said:


> But not, "I'm sorry."
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



That would practically be an admission of guilt in a civil suit, so it was never going to happen.


----------



## sempai little1 (Jun 17, 2009)

The kids to blame, the teachers to blame, the schools to blame. Are we missing someone, oh right the parents.

My son has ADD, it was said by the Doctor that is was the most sever case he has had to deal with.
That beind said. *I *fought tooth and nail to get my son the help he needed without being pulled from a mainstream class.
It took about a year to get all the peices of the puzzle to fall into place, but now he is an A,B student in his mainstream class. The teacher enjoys having him around. He has a unique outlook on things, "an out of the box thinker".

The parent has to fight for teacher aids, mentors, assisted learning tools like computers and quite test areas.

I know ADD is not Asperger's syndrome, but the same basic priciples apply. If the parents want mainstream classes for thier child they have to be the ones responcible for his and his classmates learning enviroment. They have to fight, because if they wont who will?

I get what Luckyboxer is saying, it is painfully unfair for students to have to deal with a troubled child, and the kids should have a say. Not so much in the finger pointing way they did do it. 

I'm lost for anymore words. I don't know how to fix the problem, I just know it wont fix itself.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

KELLYG said:


> From a Teacher's point of view she was probable out of options as to how to handle the child.  If, in previous post it is suggested that the child go through screening processes to determined a "special needs" child and the parent can over rule the screening process, coupled with the fact that the schools (especially around here) are laying off teachers and increasing class sizes, she probably did not have the support or back up she needed to handle this problem.  I thought when I read the article at first that he child was being permanently removed from the class but if he was being sent out side to cool his heels so to speak what's the big deal.  As for the public dressing down by his peers, some times a child will make positive behavior changes at the request of there peers vs an adult. Has he been formally diagnosed as of yet?
> 
> From a student's point of view. When I went Through school there was usually 25 to 30 kids in class.  If one or two of them were as disruptive as this child was/is then we would not be able to get anything accomplished.  The classes that I took were run at a slow speed anyway.  It would take 6 mo to review one play that I read in a weekend so I could not imagine how slowly the class would move along with several disruptive children in it.



Inclusion has arisen because in many cases it makes the difference between a productive, contributing member of society and a homicidal menace or state hospital vegetable.  I suppose we could return to just warehousing everyone who doesn't fit inside the box in these homes ... but at what cost - both economically and socially?  

That said, inclusion doesn't work for everyone and teachers without support will go to lengths they probably ought not to.  

I think many can learn faster alone than in a class and I don't think it takes a special ed student to slow that process down.



> As far as being sent out of class I can remember being sent out of class a time or two and it did noting to damage my self esteem.


With all due respect, I really don't think you understand the dynamics of Asperger's Syndrome and how this particular incident took place (according to the press I've been able to find on it).



> This child needs to be place in a situation that honers him as well as his fellow students, that does not mean main stream school environment.  He was probably not getting what he really needed out of class either.


That remains to be seen - he is still in the diagnostic process, apparently, and he's only five years old.

What we can say with clarity, though, is that this teacher was not supported nor trained appropriately for the task of teaching in this inclusion environment.  I also have huge issues with other classmates - especially five-year-olds - deciding the consequences for behavior of any other child.  They might have you hanged if you wear purple more than one day in a row.


----------



## blindsage (Jun 17, 2009)

God forbid we incorporate people with special needs into our 'normal' system.   God forbid we (and our children) learn compassion and social/communication skills for dealing with people different from us.  No, let's go back to isolating them and treating them like outcasts, because let's face it, they deserve it.  They're bad kids acting bad, they should be ostracized.


----------



## jim777 (Jun 17, 2009)

What an insightful day this teacher gave to her students.

Banish the different guilt free through strength in numbers in the morning, finger paint in the afternoon. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to which lesson learned will stick with those kids the longest?


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 17, 2009)

There is no excuse to have a child stand in front of a class and have his fellow classmates put him down. Especially a child suffering from something like Asperger's syndrome. That is a terrible lesson to teach children about intolerance and bullying let alone how it crushes this child's self esteem and social skills with peers his age.

The teacher should have used other means of interaction such as a study partner,a teacher's aide,special classes, anything but this type of treatment.


----------



## KELLYG (Jun 17, 2009)

Is it better to have a student in and environment that is counter productive for him and his fellow students or an environment with people trained and that have the tools necessary to better a student with challenges. 
 I do not support isolation or putting children in box's or institutions because they are different.  I feel strongly that students get most of their education in the school house why hinder some students education at the expense of others.  Who are you serving then.  At some point there are 15 children not getting the education that they need as well as 1 student that is not getting the help they need.  I have a brother that was diagnosed with ADD and was highly intelligent.  As a student and instead of challenging him to keep his focus, intrest, and attention he was mainstreamed and his obvious differences, from other students and there responses, did more to destroy his self esteem than if he was placed with a group of students and instructors with the knowledge to help him.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

Indeed - inclusion doesn't work for everyone.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow
Where to start....
Ok Shesulsa..
I am specifically talking about the comments you made.. the one about the herd... and thousands being left behind.... which is simply not true.
and then your last comment specifically about me finding no value in the child.
Thats simply something you made up to make me look like a bad guy.

You also made mention that the teacher should take a year or three off and learn about this and other syndromes...

Thats ridiculous.

Our teachers should be experts in their given subjects.
I have views on what that should be at different ages and grades, but regardless I do not think that trying to make every teacher take a few more years of study to become knowledgable in these syndromes is the way to go, and is just getting away from what they should be doing...
TEACHING.
You are wanting to make the teachers into Teachers, Mothers, Fathers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Doctors, Nurses, Politicians, Cooks, Coaches, etc.
Lets let them focus on being the absolute best at their given subjects, and then have experts...true experts, ones that focus on the syndromes for a living, handle that part.
Why is the solution from those overly compassionate, to put it nicely, always to have other people take on more responsibilities??

Yet if someone like me points out what I think should be obvious, I have comments thrown my way to insinuate that I don't care at all, or see no value in a child?

Exactly the opposite. I  want to see proper help for the kid. Do you really think that the kid causing problems in the classroom over and over is going to be on a friendly basis with the other kids? That they are not going to give him grief outside of the adults supervision, and avoid him like the plague? Do you not think that this is what is so detreimental to his long term mental health as opposed to having a "wake up call" as an attempt to stem the problem??
What was not answered here, among many things, is whether the kid changed his behavior at all. It was not answered because it seems everyone overreacted after the fact.... /shrug

Shesulsa you seem to tell another poster they have no idea of the dynamics of the syndrome.... how do you come up with that conclusion, and what makes you an expert? Is that your livelyhood? Or did you just go read up on wikipedia? Or some combination of the two?

I see alot of other comments being made that are also drawing conclusions based on information that is simply not there...
Who said anything was wrong with incorporating people with different disabilities into our school system? Or that teaching compassion or social skills was wrong? I don't see that anywhere. What about teaching responsibility for ones actions? What about teaching those with disabilities that they too have to work to fit in or they will face consequences as well? Why does it always have to be one sided? Compassion does not say you have to tolerate abuse to yourself. Compassion does not say you have to suffer to understand it.

Banish the different through strength in numbers huh.... so is this a tyranny of the majority conversation now?
How about our prison system?
Do we not have rules and laws and when individuals break them they are punished?
If those punishments do not stem the tide of the actions they were designed to, then are the punishments not changed to get the desired effect? See the thread on hate crimes.... the hate crime addition is a perfect example.
I find it about teaching the kids to hold each other accountable for the their actions.
It did not say anywhere in here that the kids were allowed to call this other kid names, or tease him, or torture him, or abuse him in any way.
It simply says they were allowed to tell the boy what they thought of his continous behavior. Is this not freedom of speech?
Are we not allowed to teach our kids that if they do not like the way people are acting around them that they can not speak up for themselves?

I will say right out that if kids with different levels of these various syndromes are going to be put into the normal education process and be included into classrooms, that they should only be placed in classrooms with aids that are specifically educated in the syndromes and how to deal with them, and even then when the kids have proven over time to be too disruptive to the process then they should be removed up to the time they are able to control themselves, or improve their behavior to a more consistent basis.


----------



## sempai little1 (Jun 17, 2009)

KELLYG said:


> I have a brother that was diagnosed with ADD and was highly intelligent. As a student and instead of challenging him to keep his focus, intrest, and attention he was mainstreamed and his obvious differences, from other students and there responses, did more to destroy his self esteem than if he was placed with a group of students and instructors with the knowledge to help him.


 
I wore those shoes too.
But times are different, there is more understanding of the children and how to teach them.
What didn't work in my days in school are no longer being used. My son is doing great in mainstream school, as are many other kids.
We just can't put a student in a class and leave the poor teacher to deal with all the issues that arise.
I meet with my son's teacher atleast once every two weeks or more if there is stress. (example, my brothers passing away. I was there often checking in on his weeks).
The kids also have daily planners that come home every night with a comment about there day. That way I am always aprised of any situation that comes up.

No mainstream isn't for everyone, but it is not an option we should push aside for challenged kids. Many thrive in mainstream classes, many just need alittle more attention and help.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 17, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Our teachers should be experts in their given subjects.



If you're teaching 5 year olds, you need to be an expert in child care and management. You can probably handle the addition of small integers part without an advanced degree in math.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 17, 2009)

arnisador said:


> If you're teaching 5 year olds, you need to be an expert in child care and management. You can probably handle the addition of small integers part without an advanced degree in math.


 
Who said anything about an advanced degree in math for a kindergarten teacher?

So what level of understanding, and treatment for these various syndromes is appropriate for a kindergarten teacher? How much more schooling do you want to require from them? Like I said before, why make these people try to wear so many hats that they do their job poorly rather then get experts to deal with the specific problem?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 17, 2009)

We have children with Aspbergers etc in mainstream schooling but they have a teaching assistant assigned to them if needed.


----------



## sempai little1 (Jun 17, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Like I said before, why make these people try to wear so many hats that they do their job poorly rather then get experts to deal with the specific problem?


 
I said it in another thread but I think it applies here as well.
"A jack of all trades, a master of none"
Child psycology(sp?) is not something you can learn in a semster in teachers college.
Teachers are taught child care and management, not how to deal with a child with sever problems in social situations. 
The topic is about a 5 yr old here, but that's not to say that there are not other children at various levels of education dealing with the same problems.
So like Luckyboxer said, teachers need to stick to their subjects, and yes that may include advanced math in some situations.

The big picture is being lost in quick responces and heated come backs. We all agree that we want what's best for the kids. That means that some kids with thrive in mainstream classes and others need special ed.
Not to forget that the teachers need help. Not just a friendly pat on the back during teacher appreciation week, but daily help with challenged and non challenged children.

Insted of fighting over a subject that is going nowhere why not try and go to your school and ofter to become a mentor or volunteer as a teachers aid to help with children who need some extra help.
As martial artist, don't you think you would make a great role model to a struggling student.
Just a thought.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 17, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Wow
> Where to start....
> Ok Shesulsa..
> I am specifically talking about the comments you made.. the one about the herd... and thousands being left behind.... which is simply not true.


Every child like him and the other children in his class, where the teacher doesn't have the training nor adequate support to handle the situation are all left behind ... and there are many across this nation who are dealing with similar circumstances.



> and then your last comment specifically about me finding no value in the child.
> Thats simply something you made up to make me look like a bad guy.



I can see where you could take that personally, but it was not intended as a personal shot, rather a comparison. So, what then, do you think, IS the value of having a challenged person in a classroom?



> You also made mention that the teacher should take a year or three off and learn about this and other syndromes...
> 
> Thats ridiculous.



Three might be ridiculous; a year probably isn't, given the specialized training required to help adapt a classroom environment to include as many as reasonably possible.



> Our teachers should be experts in their given subjects.



So for a Kindergarten teacher, what would that subject be, exactly, in your opinion?



> I have views on what that should be at different ages and grades, but regardless I do not think that trying to make every teacher take a few more years of study to become knowledgable in these syndromes is the way to go, and is just getting away from what they should be doing...
> TEACHING.



But they would still be teaching.  What else do you think they'd be doing?



> You are wanting to make the teachers into Teachers, Mothers, Fathers, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Doctors, Nurses, Politicians, Cooks, Coaches, etc.



Teachers adapt lessons for many children without diagnoses, really.  Some kids just don't get math as quickly without a trick or two, so they learn strategies for helping these children. Same with reading - there are a multitude of strategies and there really are no two students who learn the same way at the same rate.



> Lets let them focus on being the absolute best at their given subjects, and then have experts...true experts, ones that focus on the syndromes for a living, handle that part.



Which leads us to the CBC model which most schools - including the one in my district - uses; it stands for "Center-Based Classroom."  The gradations are 1-4, 1 being the least affected and 4 being virtually vegetative and/or needed serious medical assistance.



> Why is the solution from those overly compassionate, to put it nicely, always to have other people take on more responsibilities??



Why is the solution for those who are ... well, the converse of what you said would be underly-compassionate, though I don't think it's an accurate assessment ... unwilling to allow diversity (I suppose is how one might put it?) to always discard those who they deem to be hinderances to all?



> Yet if someone like me points out what I think should be obvious, I have comments thrown my way to insinuate that I don't care at all, or see no value in a child?



Again, please see my comment earlier.



> Exactly the opposite. I  want to see proper help for the kid. Do you really think that the kid causing problems in the classroom over and over is going to be on a friendly basis with the other kids? That they are not going to give him grief outside of the adults supervision, and avoid him like the plague? Do you not think that this is what is so detreimental to his long term mental health as opposed to having a "wake up call" as an attempt to stem the problem??



And isn't that the opportunity of a teacher? Principal? Playground monitors? To encourage productivity and healthy development since these are so incredibly crucial to the learning process?



> What was not answered here, among many things, is whether the kid changed his behavior at all. It was not answered because it seems everyone overreacted after the fact.... /shrug



Hm. Well, according to the article, his behavior changed in that he is now rejecting himself, is desperate to fit in but refuses to go to that school again. So ... yeah, his behavior changed ... for the worse.  As I said, conventional responses usually don't work for these kids.



> Shesulsa you seem to tell another poster they have no idea of the dynamics of the syndrome.... how do you come up with that conclusion, and what makes you an expert? Is that your livelyhood? Or did you just go read up on wikipedia? Or some combination of the two?



I am the mother of a young man with high-functioning autism.  When he was diagnosed, he was the only autistic kid in the school.  My younger children tell me there is at least one kid on the spectrum or with some kind of challenge in every classroom in their school.



> I see alot of other comments being made that are also drawing conclusions based on information that is simply not there...
> Who said anything was wrong with incorporating people with different disabilities into our school system? Or that teaching compassion or social skills was wrong? I don't see that anywhere. What about teaching responsibility for ones actions? What about teaching those with disabilities that they too have to work to fit in or they will face consequences as well? Why does it always have to be one sided? Compassion does not say you have to tolerate abuse to yourself. Compassion does not say you have to suffer to understand it.



If I may say so, this statement is really reaching a lot and drawing conclusions as you accuse others of doing.  



> Banish the different through strength in numbers huh.... so is this a tyranny of the majority conversation now?
> How about our prison system?
> Do we not have rules and laws and when individuals break them they are punished?
> If those punishments do not stem the tide of the actions they were designed to, then are the punishments not changed to get the desired effect? See the thread on hate crimes.... the hate crime addition is a perfect example.
> ...



That paragraph was all over the place, but as to the last question ... of course not ... but it appears to be a blanket solution for a very specific situation.



> I will say right out that if kids with different levels of these various syndromes are going to be put into the normal education process and be included into classrooms, that they should only be placed in classrooms with aids that are specifically educated in the syndromes and how to deal with them, and even then when the kids have proven over time to be too disruptive to the process then they should be removed up to the time they are able to control themselves, or improve their behavior to a more consistent basis.



That is what an IEP is for - an Individualized Education Plan - which *should* already be in place for this child.  We don't know that, however.


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jun 17, 2009)

Now can't the School Board be voted out? Tell them either fire the teacher or be voted out. And then start a grass roots campain to do just that.

Deaf


----------



## girlbug2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> We have children with Aspbergers etc in mainstream schooling but they have a teaching assistant assigned to them if needed.


 
England appears to be a very sensible country.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> England appears to be a very sensible country.


 

We have a system whereby a child with special needs is 'statemented' and this means a child is then entitled to help at school. It's a specialised job in itself not just a teachers aid.
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/p/types_of_job/special_needs_teaching_assistant_job_description.jsp


----------



## sempai little1 (Jun 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> We have a system whereby a child with special needs is 'statemented' and this means a child is then entitled to help at school. It's a specialised job in itself not just a teachers aid.
> http://www.prospects.ac.uk/p/types_of_job/special_needs_teaching_assistant_job_description.jsp


 
We have a similar thing here called an IEP (Independant Education Plan) My son has an IEP. I works great....Once the parents have exhausted themselves trying to get in implimented in the school.
My kids go to a rural school and access to extra help is limited at best.

My family is from England and I have always admired your education system. When we first came to Canada(by we I mean they, I wasn't born yet) My oldest sister was in school full time learning math, spelling and other such lessons. She was put into kindergarden with the kids her age and she threw a fit. Half days and a nap time to boot. The school board ended up skipping her two grades.

It is hard to catch the kids that are going to struggle academically if all they have to do is play nice with the other kids. Kindergarden in my mind is just free day care.
Opps off topic.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2009)

sempai little1 said:


> We have a similar thing here called an IEP (Independant Education Plan) My son has an IEP. I works great....Once the parents have exhausted themselves trying to get in implimented in the school.
> My kids go to a rural school and access to extra help is limited at best.
> 
> My family is from England and I have always admired your education system. When we first came to Canada(by we I mean they, I wasn't born yet) My oldest sister was in school full time learning math, spelling and other such lessons. She was put into kindergarden with the kids her age and she threw a fit. Half days and a nap time to boot. The school board ended up skipping her two grades.
> ...


 

I was wondering about the age and what sort of class it was in the OP. Here children go to playschool, usually a half day, until they are four and a half then a 'proper' primary school. I can well imagine your sisters indignation at being sent to a baby class after being at 'big' school!


----------



## sempai little1 (Jun 19, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I was wondering about the age and what sort of class it was in the OP. Here children go to playschool, usually a half day, until they are four and a half then a 'proper' primary school. I can well imagine your sisters indignation at being sent to a baby class after being at 'big' school!


 
My sister is now 47 and it is still brought up at family dinners how angry she was....sometimes wonder if she still IS annoyed that they put her in baby school.:rpo:
My sister was 5 when they came to Canada. She is a proud person and this was certainly an indignity in her eyes.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:


----------

