# Tang Soo Do and Karate (not Shotokan)



## Makalakumu

Hwang Kee learned martial arts from many different styles of karate.  In fact, if you look at his book, Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. One, he lists a number of forms that come from all kinds of karate ryu.  A large part of the TSD curriculum is inspired by Shotokan.  However, how much is coming from other styles of karate?


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## dancingalone

Hmm, I thought his only formal training in karate came from Lee, Won Kuk.  This means Shotokan.  I am not aware that Hwang, Kee learned karate in person from anyone else.  It's been speculated that he learned a lot from books and may have studied a copy of the Karate-Do Kyohan.  

Obviously, he had training in other arts aside from karate, perhaps Yang Tai Chi Chuan.

I do not believe him listing all these karate forms in his book meant that he actually knew and practiced them.  For purposes of discussion, could you list them?  I vaguely remember they include a few outside of the usual Shotokan canon.


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## JWLuiza

I wonder if he just pulled the names from other available resources and didn't actually have versions of those forms.


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## Makalakumu

Here are the forms he lists in Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. 1 on page 352-353.  He presents two lists.

The first list he notes, comes from the We Ka Ryu Style.  He claims these were influenced by the southern Chinese schools, and are characterized by speed, aggressiveness, dynamic action, and spontaneity.

1.  Kee Cho Hyung Il Boo
2.  Kee Cho Hyung Ee Boo
3.  Kee Cho Hyung Sam Boo
4.  Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
5.  Pyung Ahn Ee Dan
6.  Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
7.  Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
8.  Pyung Ahn Oh Dan
9.  Bassai Dae
10.  Bassai So
11.  Chin Do
12.  Oh Sip Sa Bo
13.  Wang Shu
14.  Tjin
*15.  So Rim Jang Kwan* - ?
*16.  Dam Toi* - ?
17.  Kong Sang Koon Dae
18.  Kong Sang Koon So
*19.  Rohaee Cho Dan - Tomari Te
20.  Rohaee Ee Dan - Tomari Te
21.  Rohaee Sam Dan - Tomari Te*
22.  Eesip Sa
*23.  Woon Shu* - ?

The following list, he notes, comes from the Ne Ga Ryu Style, which he claims were influenced by the northern Chinese schools and are characterized by deliberateness, stability, fluid motion, and a slower and more quiet power.

*1.  Tsan Tjin - Naha Te*
*2.  Jun Jang - Naha Te
3.  Ssi San - Naha Te
4.  Ssi Boai - Naha Te
5.  Bae Rin Bba - Naha Te
6.  SsanSsi Bbai - Naha Te
7.  Sei San - Naha Te and Shuri Te*
8.  So Jin*
9.  Sai Hoo Ah - Naha Te
10.  Goo Reung Hoo Ah - Naha Te
*11.  Jin Toi
12.  Ji On
*13.  Tae Kuk Kwon* - ?
14.  Nai Han Chi Cho Dan
15.  Nai Han Chi Ee Dan
16.  Nai Han Chi Sam Dan

I've boldfaced any non-Shotokan forms and attempted to note their origins.  If I listed a question mark, I do not know or cannot recall their origins from memory.  So, I guess we can see that TSD is drawing from many different styles of karate (and some Chinese martial arts).  Feel free to add to this list if you would like.  It looks like a good bit of the Goju Ryu syllabus is there.


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## dancingalone

maunakumu said:


> I've boldfaced any non-Shotokan forms and attempted to note their origins.  If I listed a question mark, I do not know or cannot recall their origins from memory.  So, I guess we can see that TSD is drawing from many different styles of karate (and some Chinese martial arts).  Feel free to add to this list if you would like.  It looks like a good bit of the Goju Ryu syllabus is there.



I'm disinclined to believe Goju-ryu played much of a role if any in the development of Tang Soo Do.  The lack of Sanchin training, complete absence of mawashi-uke in any of the accepted TSD forms, dearth of kakie exercises... The evidence, or lack thereof, connecting the two arts is pretty definitive to me.  I'd also offer up the Chil Sung forms created by GM Hwang... Again, no Goju influence there to my eyes.

It looks like GM Hwang simply wanted to list all the known classical karate forms he knew of in his book.  That in of itself is not evidence that he knew or practiced them.

Here's some of the translations I sounded through, not knowing Korean nor Japanese.  The standard kata in Goju-ryu are well known:  Sanchin, Gekisai Dai Ichi, Gekisai Dai Ni, Saifa, Seiunchin, Seipai, Shisochin, Sanseiru, Seisan, Kururunfa, Suparinpei, Tensho


* Dam Toi* = Tam Toi (a common beginner set with many variations across Chinese styles)
*  Rohaee = Rohai* (Funakoshi Sensei is thought to have created the Shotokan kata Meikyo using elements from the Okinawan  Rohai kata)
*Woon Shu = Unsu *
*Tsan Tjin  = Sanchin
**Jun Jang = Tensho*
*Sei San = Seisan*
*Goo Reung Hoo Ah = Kururunfa?*


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> It looks like GM Hwang simply wanted to list all the known classical karate forms he knew of in his book.  That in of itself is not evidence that he knew or practiced them.



This is my first inclination, however, I am open minded to any evidence to the contrary.  I certainly have no firm opinion.  

Here is something else to consider.  Rohai is a common form that is still practiced today in many TSD dojangs.  This form did not come from Shotokan.  They don't practice it.  They practice Meikyo, which is a combination of various kata principles related to Rohai.  

Therefore, he must have learned it from somewhere else.  To my knowledge, this kata was not portrayed in any of the books that he studied or would have been published at the time.  This means that he had at least one different karate teacher.  Who was it?

Could it also have been possible that he trained in Goju?  Or maybe Shito Ryu?


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## dancingalone

maunakumu said:


> Here is something else to consider.  Rohai is a common form that is still practiced today in many TSD dojangs.  This form did not come from Shotokan.  They don't practice it.  They practice Meikyo, which is a combination of various kata principles related to Rohai.
> 
> Therefore, he must have learned it from somewhere else.  To my knowledge, this kata was not portrayed in any of the books that he studied or would have been published at the time.  This means that he had at least one different karate teacher.  Who was it?



That is an interesting point.   Shudokan karate does a version of Matsumura Rohai as well.  Perhaps there was an informal connection somehow.  We know about the Yoon, Byung In and the other Korean gentleman who I can never recall who studied at the Shudokan...



maunakumu said:


> Could it also have been possible that he trained in Goju?  Or maybe Shito Ryu?



I really doubt Goju-ryu judging by what Tang Soo Do looks like today.  I also doubt Shito-ryu played a role either, but I am not as vehement about it.


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## dancingalone

Side note, I guess but why all the guess work about this?  Did the information about what GM Hwang learned from who die with him?


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## JWLuiza

dancingalone said:


> That is an interesting point.   Shudokan karate does a version of Matsumura Rohai as well.  Perhaps there was an informal connection somehow.  We know about the Yoon, Byung In and the other Korean gentleman who I can never recall who studied at the Shudokan...
> 
> 
> 
> I really doubt Goju-ryu judging by what Tang Soo Do looks like today.  I also doubt Shito-ryu played a role either, but I am not as vehement about it.



I agree with your point. Kim Ki Whang was a student of Toyama Kanken and was one of the first Korean's bearing the TSD flag in the states though never trained under Hwang Ki. He may be the source of the Rohai connection.


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## Makalakumu

An interesting note about mawashi-uke.  This move is actually shown in the early Chil Sung hyungs and it is shown in Wansu kata.  Perhaps, it doesn't look exactly like the goju version because of the time that has passed and the misunderstandings that have built up.  It is there, however.  Something to think about.


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## Makalakumu

JWLuiza said:


> I agree with your point. Kim Ki Whang was a student of Toyama Kanken and was one of the first Korean's bearing the TSD flag in the states though never trained under Hwang Ki. He may be the source of the Rohai connection.



Is there any video of the Rohai that Toyama Kanken taught?


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## dancingalone

maunakumu said:


> An interesting note about mawashi-uke.  This move is actually shown in the early Chil Sung hyungs and it is shown in Wansu kata.  Perhaps, it doesn't look exactly like the goju version because of the time that has passed and the misunderstandings that have built up.  It is there, however.  Something to think about.



I don't see anything resembling mawashi-uke in this rendition of Yunbi.  Do you have a better example than I was able to find?  [yt]KFNUSpxn4mc[/yt]

Regardless, I'm not aware of any evidence connecting Goju-ryu to Tang Soo Do.  We don't see any TSD federations include common workhorse Goju kata like Seiunchin or Sanchin as a mainstream study after all.  Again no kakie, no sanchin body training, no modern survival of hojo undo in TSD...  The case is overwhelmingly against a Goju/TSD connection.  Furthermore, I bet if you show 10 different Goju-ryu instructor level dans some key TSD hyung like Kong San Koon or Pal Sek they'd all say they don't see any Goju-ryu in it.  This isn't meant to be a disparagement of TSD by the way.  I think it stands on its own as a completely good style in of itself.

I think a possible Shudokan link has much more possibility and it merits more investigation.


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> I don't see anything resembling mawashi-uke in this rendition of Yunbi.  Do you have a better example than I was able to find?  [yt]KFNUSpxn4mc[/yt]



That is one of the more interesting versions of Wansu I've seen.  LOL!  It is still there, though, but it's highly stylized.  At the end, right before the 360 degree hop.  It looks like he is stepping forward and moving his hands up and down alternately.  Imagine the move with more circular motions.

At any rate, it's not a block you see taught in many TSD dojangs.  My teacher's school is the only place I have seen it taught that way.



dancingalone said:


> Regardless, I'm not aware of any evidence connecting Goju-ryu to Tang Soo Do.  We don't see any TSD federations include common workhorse Goju kata like Seiunchin or Sanchin as a mainstream study after all.  Again no kakie, no sanchin body training, no modern survival of hojo undo in TSD...  The case is overwhelmingly against a Goju/TSD connection.  Furthermore, I bet if you show 10 different Goju-ryu instructor level dans some key TSD hyung like Kong San Koon or Pal Sek they'd all say they don't see any Goju-ryu in it.  This isn't meant to be a disparagement of TSD by the way.  I think it stands on its own as a completely good style in of itself.



Yeah, this is probably the case, I just wanted to throw the question out there because the kata were listed at TSD hyungs.  It's interesting to explore the rationale behind it.



dancingalone said:


> I think a possible Shudokan link has much more possibility and it merits more investigation.



Definitely!  I think we may actually have a link outside of Shotokan here!


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## clfsean

maunakumu said:


> Here are the forms he lists in Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. 1 on page 352-353.  He presents two lists.
> 
> <<snipped>>
> 
> *15.  So Rim Jang Kwan* - ?
> *16.  Dam Toi* - ?



As it's already been mentioned, Dam Toi is Tan Tui is Mandarin. It's used as a building exercise by many northern CMA's. At one time, it was a stand alone system by itself, but it's basics were so strong in building the required skills for related arts that were deeper in content, many adopted the basic road set as a primer. It'd be interesting to see which one he claimed.

Unless my non-existing Korean to Chinese translation skills have failed (which is quite likely) #15 translates to Shaolin Chang Quan, which just means Shaolin Long Fist. That doesn't say much of anything about "what" was studied. 




maunakumu said:


> The following list, he notes, comes from the Ne Ga Ryu Style, which he claims were influenced by the northern Chinese schools and are characterized by deliberateness, stability, fluid motion, and a slower and more quiet power.
> 
> *1.  Tsan Tjin - Naha Te*



Never heard of a "Ne Ga Ryu" critter. What is that?

Now, again as previously mentioned, the "Tsan Tjin" translates over to Sanchin from Okinawa. As it's called in southern China, "Saam Chien". There's nothing northern about Saam Chien or remotely northern in where you find it. It's found in only southern styles coming pretty much from Fujian/Zhejiang & on southwards. I've never seen it in a northern style, unless a northerner learned it & took it north. But the basic dynamics of the Chinese Saam Chien don't exactly jive with the northern practices. It's counter productive to how the northern style practitioners develop energy & related skills.


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## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Side note, I guess but why all the guess work about this?  Did the information about what GM Hwang learned from who die with him?




I would say that there is a lot of guesswork because from almost the beginning, GM Hwang has been less than truthful about his martial arts background. He was misstating his background to such a degree even back in the 1940's that GM SON Duk Sung confronted GM Hwang about it, GM Hwang ran away from GM Son, GM Son caught up with him at some elementary school and proceeded to beat him up over the lies he was spreading.


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## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> I would say that there is a lot of guesswork because from almost the beginning, GM Hwang has been less than truthful about his martial arts background. He was misstating his background to such a degree even back in the 1940's that GM SON Duk Sung confronted GM Hwang about it, GM Hwang ran away from GM Son, GM Son caught up with him at some elementary school and proceeded to beat him up over the lies he was spreading.



Whoa!  That's insane!

Um, do you know of any specific link to the Shudokan?


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Um, do you know of any specific link to the Shudokan?




Specific link to the Shudokan to what?


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> Whoa!  That's insane!




This is mentioned in the Modern History book in the Moo Duk Kwan section: 

After Independence Day, the Moo Duk Kwan started as the
"Transportation by  Rail Committee Tang Soo Do Bu" (Woon Soo 
Boo Boo Woo Hwe - Tang Soo Do Boo)  at the railroad system at 
YongSan Station, Seoul.

The Department of  Transportation allowed the Tang Soo Do Dojang 
as a traffic service, but the  exact date is unknown. We only know that 
it was founded after  1946.

HWANG Kee claimed that he learned Kuk Sool when he worked  for
the Southern Manchuria Railroad in 1935, but other Taekwondo
seniors  denied this claim saying that there was no evidence.


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## Makalakumu

puunui said:


> Specific link to the Shudokan to what?



To Hwang Kee.  We were wondering if he received any training from them, because our version of Rohai is NOT Shotokan and may have come from them.  No body in this thread knows for sure.


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## puunui

maunakumu said:


> To Hwang Kee.  We were wondering if he received any training from them, because our version of Rohai is NOT Shotokan and may have come from them.  No body in this thread knows for sure.




GM HWANG Kee was involved with all three of the known Korean born Shudokan practitioners in Korea, GM YOON Kwe Byung, GM YOON Byung In and GM KIM Ki Whang. Gm Hwang and GM YOON Kwe Byung were close in the early 1960's and would go on exchange trips to Japan together. GM YOON Byung In would attend Moo Duk Kwan testings during the late 40's, and we already talked about GM Kim. GM YOON Byung In taught a form called Jangkwon, which I believe is also a name of a form that is part of the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum. I don't know if it is the same Jangkwon, but I have heard that GM Yoon taught Gm Hwang that form. I get the feeling the GM Hwang was the type to learn from anyone so it could have been any of the three Shudokan practitioners.


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## kbarrett

From what I've learned over the years is that GM Hwang Kee's main training comes from China, he train with the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do under GM Won Kuk Lee for a short time and it's widely believe this is where he learn the pyong ahn's and most of the other hyungs, I also know Kim Ki Whang also helped GM Hwang Kee learn most of teh Hyungs (kata) that makes up the Tang Soo do Hyungs, as for the rest, I'm not really sure he ever really learned those hyungs, as for the book we all know you can only learn so much from books they help, but they don't teach you the finer point of the hyungs.

Ken Barrett


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## Tez3

Makalakumu said:


> This is my first inclination, however, I am open minded to any evidence to the contrary. I certainly have no firm opinion.
> 
> Here is something else to consider. Rohai is a common form that is still practiced today in many TSD dojangs. This form did not come from Shotokan. They don't practice it. They practice Meikyo, which is a combination of various kata principles related to Rohai.
> 
> Therefore, he must have learned it from somewhere else. To my knowledge, this kata was not portrayed in any of the books that he studied or would have been published at the time. This means that he had at least one different karate teacher. Who was it?
> 
> Could it also have been possible that he trained in Goju? Or maybe Shito Ryu?





Rohai is done in Wado Ryu if that's any help.


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> Rohai is done in Wado Ryu if that's any help.



I think Wado does one of the Itosu Rohai forms, but not all three.   Most of the TSD performances of Lohai I've seen seem to be a derivation of Matsumura Rohai which argues for additional connection outside of Shotokan karate as discussed above. 

It's all good.


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## punisher73

kbarrett said:


> From what I've learned over the years is that GM Hwang Kee's main training comes from China, he train with the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do under GM Won Kuk Lee for a short time and it's widely believe this is where he learn the pyong ahn's and most of the other hyungs, I also know Kim Ki Whang also helped GM Hwang Kee learn most of teh Hyungs (kata) that makes up the Tang Soo do Hyungs, as for the rest, I'm not really sure he ever really learned those hyungs, as for the book we all know you can only learn so much from books they help, but they don't teach you the finer point of the hyungs.
> 
> Ken Barrett



Are you saying that he learned the Pyong ahn's in China?  Or the other Hyungs?  All of the kata mentioned as being known in TSD are traced to Okinawa/Japan and have never been found in China as they are practiced by those styles.  The one exception to that has been Sanchin/Sam Chien.


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## cdunn

punisher73 said:


> Are you saying that he learned the Pyong ahn's in China? Or the other Hyungs? All of the kata mentioned as being known in TSD are traced to Okinawa/Japan and have never been found in China as they are practiced by those styles. The one exception to that has been Sanchin/Sam Chien.



Not really -> The lost point here is that whatever the Kwan Jang Nim learned in China(from sources debatable), when he came back to Korea and established Moo Duk Kwan Hwa Soo Do, his school was a commercial failure. At this point, he learned the Pyungahn sequence(from sources debatable), and reestablished the Moo Duk Kwan as Tang Soo Do.


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## kbarrett

Just what Mr. Dunn said, Thanks.

Ken


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## Tez3

As I've said before the Pyong Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan and Heien katas only with the depth and a lot of the stances taken out. It shows someone learned them from an Okinawan/Japanese practitioner and changed them slightly not so much that they aren't readily recognised though and gave them a Korean name.


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## SahBumNimRush

Tez3 said:


> As I've said before the Pyong Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan and Heien katas only with the depth and a lot of the stances taken out. It shows someone learned them from an Okinawan/Japanese practitioner and changed them slightly not so much that they aren't readily recognised though and gave them a Korean name.



I think that the "depth and stances" issue really depends on the school, style, and practitioner.  For example:

Shotokan Heian Yondon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAiTCcatbY&feature=related

Me a while back, Pyung Ahn Sah Dan:






There are certainly differences, but I would argue no more different than one would find within differing ryus.


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## Tez3

SahBumNimRush said:


> I think that the "depth and stances" issue really depends on the school, style, and practitioner. For example:
> 
> Shotokan Heian Yondon:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAiTCcatbY&feature=related
> 
> Me a while back, Pyung Ahn Sah Dan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are certainly differences, but I would argue no more different than one would find withindiffering ryus.




I find Yondan one of the simplest katas to do. Here is the definitive Wado Ryu version, this is the totally correct way for the Wado one to be done. You can't get better than the founder doing it.  The basic point is though the Pyungs are not originally Korean.


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## SahBumNimRush

Tez3 said:


> I find Yondan one of the simplest katas to do. Here is the definitive Wado Ryu version, this is the totally correct way for the Wado one to be done. You can't get better than the founder doing it.  The basic point is though the Pyungs are not originally Korean.



I don't think that was being debated here, was it?  It is quite obvious that the pyung ahn hyungs are versions of Itosu's Pinan Katas.  There is evidence to suggest that they were transmitted to Tang Soo Do namely via Shotokan and/or Shudokan lineages.  There is no form that I practice in our association that isn't an adaptation of an Okinawan/ Japanese Kata.  While some, would argue that the movements in these forms could be traced back to China, I'm not going to debate that issue.  

Some Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do practicioners do practice form sets that Hwang Kee did formulate, and some forms that were "taken" from the Moo Ye Dobo Tong Ji, which is essentially a Chinese military text transcribed to Korean back in the 1500's, if I remember correctly.  However, I do not practice these form sets.


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## Tez3

SahBumNimRush said:


> I don't think that was being debated here, was it? It is quite obvious that the pyung ahn hyungs are versions of Itosu's Pinan Katas. There is evidence to suggest that they were transmitted to Tang Soo Do namely via Shotokan and/or Shudokan lineages. There is no form that I practice in our association that isn't an adaptation of an Okinawan/ Japanese Kata. While some, would argue that the movements in these forms could be traced back to China, I'm not going to debate that issue.
> 
> Some Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do practicioners do practice form sets that Hwang Kee did formulate, and some forms that were "taken" from the Moo Ye Dobo Tong Ji, which is essentially a Chinese military text transcribed to Korean back in the 1500's, if I remember correctly. However, I do not practice these form sets.




From previous posts.






 Originally Posted by *kbarrett* 

 
From what I've learned over the years is that GM Hwang Kee's main training comes from China, he train with the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do under GM Won Kuk Lee for a short time and it's widely believe this is where he learn the pyong ahn's and most of the other hyungs, I also know Kim Ki Whang also helped GM Hwang Kee learn most of teh Hyungs (kata) that makes up the Tang Soo do Hyungs, as for the rest, I'm not really sure he ever really learned those hyungs, as for the book we all know you can only learn so much from books they help, but they don't teach you the finer point of the hyungs.

Ken Barrett








 Originally Posted by *punisher73* 

 
Are you saying that he learned the Pyong ahn's in China? Or the other Hyungs? All of the kata mentioned as being known in TSD are traced to Okinawa/Japan and have never been found in China as they are practiced by those styles. The one exception to that has been Sanchin/Sam Chien.


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## SahBumNimRush

What, Mr. Barrett states, reaffirms my statement.  LEE Won Kuk held rank in Shotokan, and KIM Ki Whang held rank in Shudokan.  And it appears, Punisher was asking for clarification.  Either way, I don't disagree with your statements TEZ :bangahead:


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## cdunn

For Reference: 
Shudokan Rohai:





A TSD Rohai:





Meikyo:






Itosu Rohai is divided up across several kata, and are very different to the Matsumura derived rohai.


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## kbarrett

I've seen other Rohai Hyung/kata like these, that why it's widely believe that GM Hwang Kee learn hsi hyung from other sources and not just from GM Won Kuk Lee, and it would seem Kim Ki Whang was most likely that source.

Ken


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## Kinghercules

Makalakumu said:


> Hwang Kee learned martial arts from many different styles of karate.  In fact, if you look at his book, Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. One, he lists a number of forms that come from all kinds of karate ryu.  A large part of the TSD curriculum is inspired by Shotokan.  However, how much is coming from other styles of karate?



From my understanding of the history Hwang Kee trained in China learning Tai Chi and he learned Shotokan from books.  GM Ki Whang Kim told us that he taught Hwang Kee the Okinawan forms back in Korea.


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## Makalakumu

Kinghercules said:


> From my understanding of the history Hwang Kee trained in China learning Tai Chi and he learned Shotokan from books.  GM Ki Whang Kim told us that he taught Hwang Kee the Okinawan forms back in Korea.



My point in starting this thread was to point out that Hwang Kee may have had other sources that he learned from beyond Shotokan.  This probably occurred after the MDK was founded.  Check out the videos of Rohai posted above.


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