# Think Before You Act?



## MJS (Aug 22, 2007)

***WARNING--GRAPHIC CONTENT***

Came across this clip.  A little shoulder bump, some words and a punch exchanged and someone gets shot.

Thoughts on this clip?


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## MJS (Aug 22, 2007)

This goes to show the importance of thinking before you act IMO.  A simple "Oopps, sorry man.  Didn't mean to walk into you." may have prevented this, but nonetheless, you never know who is carrying a weapon and who isnt.  Even in  this case, where is seems the shooter was the one who initiated this, talking your way out would probably have been a better choice.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 23, 2007)

If you punch someone, you dont just stand there afterwards, you keep it going untill they are asleep, buddy should have known that.

 Something about the body language of both screamed thug *******, so no great loss to society, 1 down, 1 to Prison.

Stupid thing to die for.


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## meth18au (Aug 23, 2007)

Seriously- what a *****.  Take a human life over that, I hope that comes back and bites him in the ***.  Some people are just so dumb...


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## blackxpress (Aug 23, 2007)

No one deserves to be gunned down like that but the guy that got shot made some major mistakes.  He should have just kept walking after he got bumped into.  Instead, he turned around and forced a confrontation.  From that point there was little, if anything, he could have done to save himself.


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## thardey (Aug 23, 2007)

Just so many things wrong with that clip.

On a moral, common sense, and tactical level.

It makes me wonder if they had "bumped" into each other in the past, and he thought he needed to "save face" more than just getting bumped by some thug.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 23, 2007)

blackxpress said:


> No one deserves to be gunned down like that but the guy that got shot made some major mistakes. He should have just kept walking after he got bumped into. Instead, he turned around and forced a confrontation. From that point there was little, if anything, he could have done to save himself.


 
If he hit him again and enterd him, there is a lot he could have done. hitting the guy and then standing there as the guy pulled his gun was dumb.

Oh well 1 idiot dead, another in Prison.
Their's is a subcoulture that should be eliminated, many of the outlaws of the old west were eliminated because decent people would not put up with it and would gun such animals down, not worrying about their rights or poor upbringing.

We and other places have MS-13 runnig around, a known violent gang, that operates outside the US as well.
They should be considerd a terrorist Org and like them targeted by Spec Ops  and Intel assets for elimination. Cops should be allowed to shot on site any idiot wearing the MS-13 uniform (They wear 13s on them and other tells) by their open flaunting of it, they are admitting they are part of a violent group and there is no need of a trial.
I know it wont happen, yet.


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## Em MacIntosh (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not a thug.  I'm a little more timid than that.  If I guy spits in my face, I'd want to hit him.  If I got hit and I had a gun, I'd probably use it intead of hitting the guy back and getting into a tussle.  If I was the guy who spit in his face, I would have had the punch coming.  No justification for what happened though.  There's a difference between deserving something and having it coming.  He didn't deserve to get shot but then, he hit a guy who had a gun.  We all die in eighty years (give or take 20) anyway.  Going to jail will probably be the best thing that ever happened to his thug career.  Now he's "gangsta".


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## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> If he hit him again and enterd him, there is a lot he could have done. hitting the guy and then standing there as the guy pulled his gun was dumb.
> 
> Oh well 1 idiot dead, another in Prison.
> Their's is a subcoulture that should be eliminated, many of the outlaws of the old west were eliminated because decent people would not put up with it and would gun such animals down, not worrying about their rights or poor upbringing.
> ...


The video does accurately highlight the ultra-violent response to attacks on their pride which is common to many criminal street gang members.  We have a bump, leading to words, spitting, striking, and finally murder.  About the only self defense relevance is that, first, the guy with the gun tends to win the confrontation; second, it's probably a good idea to weigh the perceived insult against your death; and finally, that it's important to recognize gang members, especially when they're in groups.

Beyond that...  The post I've quoted is just plain wrong, on multiple levels.  As I've said before, I'm a gang cop.  I've dealt with MS, 18th St, Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, and lots more gang members.  I know whereof I speak.

OK...  First, MS is NOT a terrorist organization, under any definition.  Not even in El Salvador.  MS doesn't seek to promote political, social or economic change; the promote their own financial well-being (at the expense of anyone else around them).  Second, within the US, none of the armed forces may target criminal street gangs; I'll simply refer you to posse commitatus.  Nor can you define an MS uniform; each cliqua has it's own dress code, which isn't even constant across the country.  Nor are cops executioners.  Finally, while MS is getting press, there are plenty of other criminal street gangs.  In fact, when MS was first raising its head in Virginia -- they were the consistent losers in any fight.  (By the way; did it escape your notice that the killer in this case was a member of 18th Street/Mara 18, NOT Mara Salvatrucha?  And 18th Street is every bit as violent as MS...  As are the Gangster Disciples, SSL, Sur13, and lots more...)  

Note that any terrorist organization DOES meet most definitions of a criminal street gang; they are groups of people with identifying signs, symbols, or characteristics, who have a primary purpose of committing illegal acts.  But you can't therefore say that any criminal street gang is a terrorist organization, any more than you can identify all red-headed men as Sam because you know a red-headed guy named Sam.

Forgive the rant -- but fighting gangs requires a multi-faceted approach that begins with knowing what you're talking about.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> This goes to show the importance of thinking before you act IMO.  A simple "Oopps, sorry man.  Didn't mean to walk into you."may have prevented this....


Yes, just the way to handle this imho too. 

I can't read the tats, but these guys may have been in rival factions and would have immediately recognized each others' ink, thus immediately escalating anything beyond *MJS*' solution--'Oops, my bad,' keep walking. At any rate, as someone said, it just seems to me there may be some history here we don't know about.



> you never know who is carrying a weapon and who isnt.  Even in  this case, where is seems the shooter was the one who initiated this, talking your way out would probably have been a better choice.


In the gang culture which I think these guys represent (have worked with them almost 20 years), once the 'victim' turned around and fronted the other guy, 'talking your way' out was probably a lost option. So, yeah, a quick apology and keep moving, then nothing gets made of it. The shooter didn't look to me as if he was looking for trouble--I didn't see any hard shoulder check, or body put into the arms as they bumped each other. So why start something that can get you dead?

A good wake up call, Mike. Thanks for sharing it. :asian:


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## kidswarrior (Aug 23, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> (By the way; did it escape your notice that the killer in this case was a member of 18th Street/Mara 18, NOT Mara Salvatrucha?  And 18th Street is every bit as violent as MS...  As are the Gangster Disciples, SSL, Sur13, and lots more...)


This did escape me (had the sound off/preoccupied in the beginning), so thanks for the tip, and I agree that 18th St. are as hardcore as it gets.




> Forgive the rant -- but fighting gangs requires a multi-faceted approach that begins with knowing what you're talking about.


Not a rant to me. I appreciate learning all I can about gangs, especially from those with personal experience.


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> If you punch someone, you dont just stand there afterwards, you keep it going untill they are asleep, buddy should have known that.


 
Agreed.  The threat wasn't neutralized, so why give the other guy a chance to attack again.  Keep on going!

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Yes, just the way to handle this imho too.


 
In this sue happy day and age, its best to at least attempt it, although there are some cases, when talking isnt an option.  



> I can't read the tats, but these guys may have been in rival factions and would have immediately recognized each others' ink, thus immediately escalating anything beyond *MJS*' solution--'Oops, my bad,' keep walking. At any rate, as someone said, it just seems to me there may be some history here we don't know about.
> 
> In the gang culture which I think these guys represent (have worked with them almost 20 years), once the 'victim' turned around and fronted the other guy, 'talking your way' out was probably a lost option. So, yeah, a quick apology and keep moving, then nothing gets made of it. The shooter didn't look to me as if he was looking for trouble--I didn't see any hard shoulder check, or body put into the arms as they bumped each other. So why start something that can get you dead?


 
Very possible it could've been a rival gang with the shooter intentionally bumping.  Talking, IMO, isn't something that is going to happen IMO with these guys, as ego and pride tend to take priority over a rational decision.



> A good wake up call, Mike. Thanks for sharing it. :asian:


 
You're welcome.   My main point of posting this, wasn't necessarily to focus on gangs, but to show that this could happen to anyone.  Beeping the horn at someone who cuts you off in traffic, could lead to them following you to your destination and shooting or stabbing you.  At the least, if faced with someone who makes a sudden move, ie: reaching into a pocket, behind their back, towards the front of their pants, lifting their shirt, I'd think attempting some sort of check and counter strike would be a wise move.  Why wait for them to pull the weapon?  Kinda like waiting for them to throw the punch before you react. 

Mike


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## grydth (Aug 23, 2007)

Guess I am in the middle on this one.... there was nothing here worth either punching or shooting anyone over. A quick "sorry" and a walk away and two guys would still have lives.

But - if one *must* use violence, finish it... quickly, decisively... and only if necessary, terminally.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> My main point of posting this, wasn't necessarily to focus on gangs, but to show that this could happen to anyone.
> 
> At the least, if faced with someone who makes a sudden move, ie: reaching into a pocket, behind their back, towards the front of their pants, lifting their shirt, I'd think attempting some sort of check and counter strike would be a wise move.  Why wait for them to pull the weapon?


Both points well taken. Avoidance, if possible. But if confronted and he reaches to go inside his clothing--the opposite direction of swinging at you--probably safe to assume he's reaching *for *something.



			
				grydth said:
			
		

> But - if one *must* use violence, finish it... quickly, decisively... and only if necessary, terminally.


I meant to give the impression that this is exactly my position, also. As Mike reiterated above,  sometimes talking just isn't an option.


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## michaeledward (Aug 24, 2007)

It sure seemed that, after throwing the punch, Guy A just stood there and watched Guy B reach into his pants, pull out a firearm, aim the weapon, cock the weapon, and fire the weapon.

During that time, he seemed to not take any action. One begins to wonder what was going through his mind as he watched this unfold before his eyes. Certainly, it must have been some sort of 'He's not going to use that gun' train of thought. 

Re watching the clip ... after the punch Guy A is still behaving with a belligerant demeanor; walking toward Guy B with a puffed out chest ... it makes you think that he doesn't see the weapon being drawn.


A scarier prospect for me, is the actions of the lady in the background. She certainly was looking forward to watching some violence; taunting and encouraging. I am afraid that she, quite probably, did not learn any lesson from this incident. And I am further afraid that there are too many people like her.


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## Mr. E (Aug 24, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> It sure seemed that, after throwing the punch, Guy A just stood there and watched Guy B reach into his pants, pull out a firearm, aim the weapon, cock the weapon, and fire the weapon.
> 
> During that time, he seemed to not take any action. One begins to wonder what was going through his mind as he watched this unfold before his eyes. Certainly, it must have been some sort of 'He's not going to use that gun' train of thought.



Good observation.

I think that maybe it may have been a case where the guy might have had tunnel vision and could not see much below the guy's face. It happens.

Or, as you point out, the guy could not believe the way the guy coldly pulls out a gun, calmly cocks it and then used it. I have heard of cases like that as well.

The sad thing is, I really did not see all that much to get worked up about with the bump. I get bumped worse than that by little old ladies and kids all the time. The gang member wasn't even looking at him when their forearms made contact with each other. I probably would have kept walking, not because I wanted to avoid trouble, but because I just could not see a reason to say anything to the other guy.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

Let that be a lesson to us all... Don't punch people in the face and wait to see what their reaction might be.
Sean


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## still learning (Aug 24, 2007)

Hello, VERBAL JUDO?   Sometimes our EGO"S and pride gets in the way of smart thinking or avoidance skills.

Two very stupid people!  Both got a lesson...one takes it with him to the grave....the other to his new home (prison).

They say over 26,000 people die by lessons like these each year....their ego's and prides gets in the way.  Just pushing someone down, and they hit their head on the wall and die? ...things like this happens all the time!

Be Humble and kind, learn to avoid.....leave...or run away....so simple...yet?    we think we must react?

Aloha,  ( as a securtiy guard a while back- I witness a man shot 5 times in the back of the head, he had aready 11 shots in the back and his head by the time I got there).  a love triangle.....


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## jks9199 (Oct 17, 2007)

Bump... highlighting threads on use of force.


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