# 2005 Theme, Gyokko ryu, Bojutsu and sword



## Don Roley (Feb 26, 2005)

In another thread, Kizaru asked this.



> This year's focus is "Gyokko ryu"...is anyone interested in starting a "Gyokko ryu thread" and sharing experiences?



Ask and ye shall receive.

I don't like talking about techniques and such on line. There is just too much information left out of the written word to do a decent job of it. But I would like to help people out if I can.

Here is some stuff that may be of help. The year's theme is Gyokko ryu and such. But it looks like we will only be doing the lowest level of the Gyokko ryu. There are 12 kata in that section and we so far have been doing one kata a month. Last month Hatsumi was showing Koku, this month it is Renyou. If you show up to Japan, you may want to review some notes just as a prelude and preperation. Of course, you still will have your mind blown. But maybe it would be nice to recognize the kata and it's name when you see the variations being done to it.

I know of at least two shihan that are also teaching bojutsu kata. Time Bathurst is leaving Japan in a week or so. If you don't bring your own, you will have to find one here. If it is not a break down version (which they have at Izumi in Shinjuku) they must have a covering over them. For some reason it is against the law to carry a rokushakubo down the street without some sort of cover for it. The police rarely need an excuse to harrass non-Japanese and may try something even if you are within the letter of the law. Why do you think that fishing cases are so popular among gaijin Bujinkan members here? Know the law and follow it.

As always, be prepared for anything. You never know what Soke is going to do next. Everything is subject to change at any time.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2005)

I can hear the comments now, "Gyokku ryu *again*? We just did that a few years ago..." 
Don, I know you don't want to post specifics, but could you give some general insights as to how the focus is different this time around?

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Feb 27, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Don, I know you don't want to post specifics, but could you give some general insights as to how the focus is different this time around?



I have not gone to Honbu or Ayase all that much so far. But it seems like a lot of Hatsumi's classes and how he does things. The shihan show a kata and then he shows some varients based on one aspect of it that I guess he feels we need to work on. But there are a lot of aspects to even one kata and each session I have been to has been a great insight, even though we may have gone over the same kata several times before.

In short, we are really, really going into a deep investigation of what makes up the foundation for Gyokko ryu IMO.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 27, 2005)

For anyone who thinks there is no bojutsu to be found within Gyokko ryu, I can tell you we have a video tape from a Daikomyosai in the early 90's at the dojo called exactly that - Gyokko ryu Bojutsu. Brin Morgan, Lubos Pokorny and Richard Van Donk are among the westerners to appear on it.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> In short, we are really, really going into a deep investigation of what makes up the foundation for Gyokko ryu IMO.


Sounds interesting. Unfortunately, with my job situation, it doesn't look like I'll be in Japan anytime soon. Luckily though, I have a friend who'll be over at the end of this month, and I'm planning to train with him when he gets back. So hopefully I'll be able to get a little taste of what's going on...

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Feb 28, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> For anyone who thinks there is no bojutsu to be found within Gyokko ryu, I can tell you we have a video tape from a Daikomyosai in the early 90's at the dojo called exactly that - Gyokko ryu Bojutsu.



I have and am very familiar with the contents of that video.

The thing you should be aware of is that there is a lot of specualtion that the boss basically just used a bo with the strategies, angles, etc of the Gyokko ryu and that there may not be any techniques for the use from the Gyokko ryu per se. If you watch the video you will note that there are no katas demonstrated, nor names given for techniques. Hatsumi is a master of both the way a bo is used and the Gyokko ryu, so it would be child's play for him to use a bo in the manner of the Gyokko ryu even without any formal techniques from that school- just as I have used things like ASP batons in a Bujinkan member without any formal ASP kata.

The instruction that the shihan I mentioned are doing are for Kukishin bojutsu and at least one has said he does not know if there are Gyokko ryu bojutsu stuff or not. All he can say is that he has not seen any formal techniques labeled as such.

So the mystery remains and most of us just try to pick up what we can.


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## Dale Seago (Feb 28, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have and am very familiar with the contents of that video.
> 
> The thing you should be aware of is that there is a lot of specualtion that the boss basically just used a bo with the strategies, angles, etc of the Gyokko ryu and that there may not be any techniques for the use from the Gyokko ryu per se. If you watch the video you will note that there are no katas demonstrated, nor names given for techniques. Hatsumi is a master of both the way a bo is used and the Gyokko ryu, so it would be child's play for him to use a bo in the manner of the Gyokko ryu even without any formal techniques from that school- just as I have used things like ASP batons in a Bujinkan member without any formal ASP kata.



That was my impression of what was going on. Additionally, that tape only represents Day 1 of 3 days of bo training and is the only "Gyokko flavored" bo stuff (the other two days were not) I've been exposed to for that entire year.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm not sure I understand why kata listed in a densho is the only acceptable proof of a set of technical skills to actually exist within a specific ryuha. For instance, while the kusarifundo techniques in the Bujinkan may come from Masaki ryu, Togakure ryu has its own take on a similar flexible weapon, namely the sanshaku tefuki (three-foot cloth, often loaded with a heavy object like a rock or piece of metal), the use of which was demonstrated by Mrs. Hatsumi on "The Ninja Art of Grand Master Hatsumi". Just because there may not be any specific kata, does that mean that the knowledge isn't to be found at all?


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## Don Roley (Feb 28, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Just because there may not be any specific kata, does that mean that the knowledge isn't to be found at all?



True, but what proof is there to state that there is such knowledge with such certainty? The facts might be either that Hatsumi just did it on the spot because he is just a master of both skills, or that there are specific skills that exist in the Gyokko ryu which none of the shihan seem to know about and to which there are no names or katas. I suspect the former, but there really is not enough evidence IMO to state _anything_ with any sort of certainty.


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## Blind (Feb 28, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> just as I have used things like ASP batons in a Bujinkan member without any formal ASP kata.


I hesitate to ask, but did the Bujinkan member enjoy the ASP baton being used IN him? What kind of non-formal kata are we talking about? Or was it a typi?


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## Don Roley (Feb 28, 2005)

Blind said:
			
		

> I hesitate to ask, but did the Bujinkan member enjoy the ASP baton being used IN him? What kind of non-formal kata are we talking about? Or was it a typi?



Well you see there is this guy who trains in the same dojo I do here in Japan that is really into that type of thing..  :moon:

It is times like this that I wish we had more time to edit our posts. Obviously I meant to say in the Bujinkan _manner_ , even though there are a few Bujinkan members I would love to use an ASP on (or in.)

On a side note, I just got a message from someone who believed that he saw some Gyokko ryu bojutsu being taught in Japan. But he is incorrect. There are actually two seperate levels to the Kukishin ryu bojutsu. I was taught the one that you do not normally see a few years ago and now another shihan is teaching it as well.


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## MisterMike (Mar 1, 2005)

Is this book applicable to Kukishin Ryu Bo training in the Bijinkan?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4901619020/103-6152071-7609457?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance







TIA,
Mike


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## Bujin (Mar 1, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> There are actually two seperate levels to the Kukishin ryu bojutsu. I was taught the one that you do not normally see a few years ago and now another shihan is teaching it as well.


 Mr Roley,

 Are you referring to two different levels within the "Kukishin ryu" bojutsu or two different styles; Kukishinden ryu bojutsu (Takagi yoshin ryu related) and Kukishin ryu bojutsu (Kukishin ryu related)? I never figured our which is which and how they are connected (if connected more than by almost identical name). Is it perhaps similar to the two different sets of hanbo/jojutsu, both related to the "kukishin" word ?


 Best regards / Richard M


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## Dale Seago (Mar 1, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Well you see there is this guy who trains in the same dojo I do here in Japan that is really into that type of thing..  :moon:



I should remind you of a certain state motto: "Don't mess with Texas".   :boing2:


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## Shogun (Mar 1, 2005)

This may be slightly off topic, but at the Aric Keith seminar, he mentioned that Gyokko ryu was never intented for fighting, self defense, etc, and is a Budo style designed for "polishing the heart". what did he mean by this?

Kyle


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## Dale Seago (Mar 1, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> This may be slightly off topic, but at the Aric Keith seminar, he mentioned that Gyokko ryu was never intented for fighting, self defense, etc, and is a Budo style designed for "polishing the heart". what did he mean by this?
> 
> Kyle



Interesting statement. I know Aric; and I've known his teacher, Bill Atkins, literally since Bill began training in the Bujinkan within weeks after I began. I've never heard either of them say anything like that.

Not doubting you by any means, just not sure about the derivation of the comment.


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## Shogun (Mar 1, 2005)

Yeah, it was a little confusing, but he said it. He was talking about the techniques in Kyokko ryu, and talked about how, while they could be considered effective, and were derived from combat techniques, the art is more comparable to Judo in which the aim is to "polish the heart", and make a practitioner a better person.

just curious if this has any truth.


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## Don Roley (Mar 2, 2005)

Bujin said:
			
		

> Are you referring to two different levels within the "Kukishin ryu" bojutsu or two different styles; Kukishinden ryu bojutsu (Takagi yoshin ryu related) and Kukishin ryu bojutsu (Kukishin ryu related)?



I _believe_ the former. But my memory is not perfect, nor are my notes I fear. I can tell you that you can find some of the techniques being demonstrated at the end of the bojutsu tape/DVD from Quest.



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> Is this book applicable to Kukishin Ryu Bo training in the Bijinkan?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...g=UTF8&v=glance



Not totally unrelated, but there are some things I could warn you about. IMO, the new book from Kodansha by the boss is much better. But nothing will truely prepare you 100 percent for the stuff he does this year.



			
				The Man Without Pants said:
			
		

> I should remind you of a certain state motto: "Don't mess with Texas".



No Texans here right now. "Hotpants" got tired of me beating up on him and went home years ago. But the guy from New Zealand really seem to miss sheep while living here.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 2, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> This may be slightly off topic, but at the Aric Keith seminar, he mentioned that Gyokko ryu was never intented for fighting, self defense, etc, and is a Budo style designed for "polishing the heart". what did he mean by this?


Seems odd, given that the kuden of Gyokko ryu tells us that Cho Gyokko killed eight Shaolin monks using only his fingers and toes...


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## Jay Bell (Mar 2, 2005)

I can see Aric's angle on the statement, at least I believe so.  Gyokko ryu can be viewed as a physical representation of esoteric buddhism (or was originally).  Ten ryaku uchu gassho in buddhism is about polishing the heart....a promise to the heavens, for example...not so much a "martial" application.


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## Don Roley (Mar 2, 2005)

Ok, I was wrong.

A source I consider beyond question has told me that there is Gyokko ryu bojutsu kata. The kamae and their names, etc, all follow the Kukishin model. Whether this is for convinience or happy coincidence I do not know. But there are kata from the Gyokko ryu to be learned if you are in the right place and the right time.

Lessons to be learned from this. 

1) All humans make mistakes, Don Roley is human thus he makes mistakes.

2) Just when you think there is nothing left to be learned from the Bujinkan, reality slaps you up alongside the head. Pity the guys who left the Bujinkan thinking that they knew it all.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 2, 2005)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> I can see Aric's angle on the statement, at least I believe so. Gyokko ryu can be viewed as a physical representation of esoteric buddhism (or was originally). Ten ryaku uchu gassho in buddhism is about polishing the heart....a promise to the heavens, for example...not so much a "martial" application.


Reminds me of a quote about Chinese internal arts..."hah! For health? For health my ***!! You could KILL someone with that stuff, man!!!"


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## Mountain Kusa (Mar 2, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Is this book applicable to Kukishin Ryu Bo training in the Bijinkan?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4901619020/103-6152071-7609457?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
> 
> ...


I was given the book as a gift and looked on the back of it as I remembered there was something on there about Takamatsu. Kiba Koshiro which wrote the book was a student of Takamatsu's. It is a valid book for use with your studies.


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## Shogun (Mar 2, 2005)

> You could KILL someone with that stuff, man!!!"


No doubt...I was actually worried it may be too violent. Interesting form of Budo.


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## Kizaru (Mar 18, 2005)

As stated in previous posts on this thread, we've been focusing on Gyokko ryu here in Japan since January this year, and so far we've covered Koku, Renyo and Danshu. 

So my question to the board is, "What do you think are the most important points to Koku, Renyo and Danshu? What have you learned by doing them?" 

The senior Shihan have also mentioned that there is a connection between those three kata (Koku, Renyo and Danshu). What do you see as the connection between those three?


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## Dale Seago (Mar 19, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> The senior Shihan have also mentioned that there is a connection between those three kata (Koku, Renyo and Danshu). What do you see as the connection between those three?



The most salient thing that jumps out at me is that in all of them you're taking the opponent from below.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 20, 2005)

I see them as a fusion of techniques from the torite kihon goho.


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## Mickey Mullins (Mar 20, 2005)

Hello,

I am probably waaaay off base,but in my opinion the way these kata effectively use the three principle kamae in a totoku(shield)method,its hard to draw the line between offensive/defensive movement.It seems as though you are simply swatting away the hornet as it tries to sting you,until you catch the rythm and can mash it.As for where the bo is interjected I haven't seen any of this so I can't comment(although I probably shouldn't have commented on the "unarmed" aspect either.)
Mickey Mullins


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## DWeidman (Mar 22, 2005)

Mickey Mullins said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I am probably waaaay off base,but in my opinion the way these kata effectively use the three principle kamae in a totoku(shield)method,its hard to draw the line between offensive/defensive movement.
> 
> Mickey Mullins


Combat application doesn't have offensive and defensive movement - IMHO.  Everything is "offensive" - even when you are retreating - it is to gain better position to Kill the other guy.  Movement is just movement.



I just went through a weekend with Tim Bathurst -- and I am having a really hard time writing this stuff down -- as it is really abstracted and "conceptual".  I will say that I am PLEASANTLY surprised with what is going on this year - from what Tim B. brought here...



-Daniel


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## Dale Seago (Mar 22, 2005)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Combat application doesn't have offensive and defensive movement - IMHO.  Everything is "offensive" - even when you are retreating - it is to gain better position to Kill the other guy.  Movement is just movement.



It may sound like a semantic picking of nits to some, but I agree with you on this.

Glad you had the opportunity to train with Tim -- he's superb!!


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## Mickey Mullins (Mar 23, 2005)

Hello,


> Originally Posted by *DWeidman*
> _Combat application doesn't have offensive and defensive movement - IMHO. Everything is "offensive" - even when you are retreating - it is to gain better position to Kill the other guy. Movement is just movement._


This is a very good outlook,I always learn so much from the senior practicioners in these nice conversations.Unconventional thoughts.



> I just went through a weekend with Tim Bathurst -- and I am having a really hard time writing this stuff down -- as it is really abstracted and "conceptual". I will say that I am PLEASANTLY surprised with what is going on this year - from what Tim B. brought here...


I would LOVE to hear more about this,if you're having a hard time writing it down though,imagine how tough it would be to try and explain.OOhhh well....

Dale are you as captivated by the concepts of this year as well?
                                           Mickey Mullins


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 23, 2005)

Sometimes a spine twist is just a spine twist.:shrug:


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## Tenchijin2 (Mar 24, 2005)

Well... my first post here at Martialtalk!

Apparently something I said at a seminar is causing a small amount of confusion in this thread. Jay has already more or less explained what I meant by the statement about Gyokko ryu being about polishing the heart, and not so much about fighting.

To further expand, it doesn't mean that the techniques aren't combat techniques, or that one doesn't need to develop proficiency in life/death aspects of things like taihenjutsu muto dori and so on. But Gyokko ryu has overarching philosophical content, and from what I have read and seen, this is the most important part of the ryu.

The emphasis on esoteric models like sanshin/gogyo, references to things like the four seasons of nature, and flowery names like tenryaku uchu gassho all have a very deep implication. The ultimate goal of this ryu is 'enlightenment', and the removing of the self from action, therefore becoming a vessel for divine justice or what-not.

I don't particularly care about much of that stuff, but it is no doubt the underpinning of the ryu.

Hope that helps.



aric


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## shinbushi (Mar 24, 2005)

Just had a seminar here with Tim,
 The main theme was throwing out the form all together and keeping the essence. The Gyokko Ryu bo was using a bo as a shield and then 'seeing' what happens. We also did some Kukishinden Okuden Bojutsu. Tim said they are doing ONE Gyokko Ryu kata a month and studying its principals and maai, through numerous henka.


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## Mickey Mullins (Mar 24, 2005)

Hello Aric and David,


> shinbushi wrote:
> Just had a seminar here with Tim,
> The main theme was throwing out the form all together and keeping the essence. The Gyokko Ryu bo was using a bo as a shield and then 'seeing' what happens. We also did some Kukishinden Okuden Bojutsu. Tim said they are doing ONE Gyokko Ryu kata a month and studying its principals and maai, through numerous henka.


Someone had mentioned the waza of the Gyokko bo as more like hanbo,and NOT like Kukishinden bo.I was wondering is this similar to the bo henka in the Koto Ryu video(from Quest)as it "looks" different than Kukishinden(well some of it anyway).How would you compare what you are seeing now,versus this.Any insight appreciated.

Aric,
Interesting points about Gyokko Ryu.

Mickey Mullins


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## shinbushi (Mar 24, 2005)

Mickey Mullins said:
			
		

> Hello Aric and David,
> Someone had mentioned the waza of the Gyokko bo as more like hanbo,and NOT like Kukishinden bo.I was wondering is this similar to the bo henka in the Koto Ryu video(from Quest)as it "looks" different than Kukishinden(well some
> 
> Mickey Mullins


 Remember Soke is not teaching formal kata this year (At least from what Tim showed). It is more of placing the bo between you and your opponent. Sorry it is hard to explain, once you see it you will know what I mean. All I can say is it is going to be a fun year. Even the Okden kata of kukishinden the focus was on the maai and usage of kukan not the waza.


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## Tenchijin2 (Mar 24, 2005)

I can't comment at all, since I haven't seen this year's theme firsthand.


aric


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## Shogun (Mar 24, 2005)

Hey, Aric. I attended the seminar. I may have started the confusion in my post but we have all come to an agreement.


BTW, do you know when you wil be coming out here again? I attended a Pedro Sauer BJJ seminar last weekend, but its just not Taijutsu.


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## Tenchijin2 (Mar 25, 2005)

I'll be out as soon as Domonic and Andrew can get enough support to do it again. Bug them about it, it should happen before too long.


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## Shogun (Mar 25, 2005)

Alright, I'll email 'em and bug em. I want my jiujitsu instrcutor to experience BBT. he has done Kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD,...but no ninpo


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## Don Roley (Mar 26, 2005)

shinbushi said:
			
		

> Tim said they are doing ONE Gyokko Ryu kata a month and studying its principals and maai, through numerous henka.



Which does not mean that Hatsumi does not go back to past kata like Koku if he feels people need to work on them, or it strikes his fancy. Friday night we did just that.


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