# Difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate



## K-man (Jan 17, 2015)

From time to time I have written that Okinawan karate is different from Japanese Karate. Those who know the difference understand where I am coming from but there are many who have limited knowledge of karate that look at the Japanese way as the only way.

I came across this article this morning and thought I might share it. Obviously there are many other differences as well that people who have experienced the differences might like to contribute.

10 Differences Between Okinawan Karate Japanese Karate KARATEbyJesse


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## Drose427 (Jan 17, 2015)

Out of curiosity, was Okinawan Karate a split sect of Japanese Karate? Or was it a combination of Okinawan Martial arts and Japanese karate?  Our TSD's lineage goes back into Okinawan Martial Arts, but I've never actually had the opportunity to learn about how Okinawan Karate itself came to be.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 17, 2015)

enjoyed reading the article now I need to go back and read all of the links.
thanks for posting it


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## jks9199 (Jan 17, 2015)

Interesting read.  What do you think is the biggest, most significant, or most important difference between Okinawan Karate and Japanese Karate?


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## K-man (Jan 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Out of curiosity, was Okinawan Karate a split sect of Japanese Karate? Or was it a combination of Okinawan Martial arts and Japanese karate?  Our TSD's lineage goes back into Okinawan Martial Arts, but I've never actually had the opportunity to learn about how Okinawan Karate itself came to be.


In a nutshell ... karate began in Okinawa. It was taken into the schools in Okinawa in the early 1900s. When the Japanese saw the health benefits they wanted it too. It was introduced into the schools and universities of Japan mainly due to the efforts of Gichin Funakoshi. His organisation became Shotokan and that had a huge influence on TKD.


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## K-man (Jan 17, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Interesting read.  What do you think is the biggest, most significant, or most important difference between Okinawan Karate and Japanese Karate?


The biggest difference for me would have to be distance. In Japan it was a prerequisite for activities like Judo and Karate to have a competitive aspect. So instead of the grappling Okinawan style that was hands on, Japanese karate was developed with the huge sparring element you see today. That didn't exist in Okinawa although there is a trend towards competition in some Okinawan karate in recent time.

Another huge difference is the method of training. In Okinawa the training is far less formal than the regimented lines marching up and down the dojo like you see in Japan. Here they are practising kihon, or basics, and unfortunately many Western karate schools have never advanced beyond the kihon, perhaps the main reason why people with little or no karate training jump on the 'karate is useless' band wagon. 

Of course that leads on to the kata and bunkai where again, the kata you normally see is kihon. It is patently obvious that you don't fight that way. It is how you learn it. However our friends who have no idea jump on kata as being useless, as they have never been shown how it is used.

There are many other differences as well but I'll follow up with more later.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 18, 2015)

i feel the article could have elaborated on the fact that Okinawa was not originally part of Japan but had its own identity with its own unique language and this is why the karate terms differ and are not found in Japanese schools. there are some statements made i would argue, but they are not really important to the piece as a whole.  
in my own experience i find that as time passes Okinawan Karate is changing and becoming more like the Japanese version and more in line with the worlds expectations of Martial arts.  so the lines between Okinawan and Japanese karate are becoming blurred.  
i do think it is important to recognize that there is a difference between the two and to extend that to the separations between Okinawan Naha- Te , Tomari-Te and the Shorin -Te systems. not to mention the American karate and how different that is as well.   i find it very frustrating on these forums when people make statements that "karate is...karate should be like" and such comments. as soon as someone defines what karate is like or should be, they are often assuming all karate is the same, and its not.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 18, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Interesting read. What do you think is the biggest, most significant, or most important difference between Okinawan Karate and Japanese Karate?


one of the more significant points i find is in terms of Bunkai.  now some may have a different view on this than myself but bunkai is meant to be a meaning behind the movements of the kata. i find many people feel that there is only one meaning in a movement or series from the kata. from my experience that is not the intent of bunkai or kata.  kata is a study of movement and principles of action not technique.  Bunkai should be a reflection of the individuals understanding of these movements and the principals involved.  as you study kata over time you will  discover multiple meanings for a single kata movement.  my bunkai or explanation of the kata will be different from someone else and my own study of kata and its meanings will change over time.  once you define one meaning or a standard technique to an action, you stop the learning and discovering process and the study of kata becomes an exercise not unlike kihon basics.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 18, 2015)

there are two methods for the preformance of kata.   one is "shimejurusan" kata which is an Okinawan term which refers to a textbook perfect kata. this is the common methodology found in Japanese kata.  the concept is that the kata exists of its own accord and it is up to the karateka to give the kata life without mixing in his or her own habits and individual bias. the instructor will often critique the kata with "corrections" like ...your back foot needs to be turned out a liitle more, your action here, needs to be faster and slower here.

the other method of kata i refer to as "sosho" which is a calligraphy term.  while shimejurusan can be thought of as "block text"   sosho is cursive.  the old joke is that your doctor has the worst hand writting.  there is truth to this.  as we write our own name over and over thousands of times the look and feel of our signature changes and becomes more fluid and in time becomes more of a mark that symbolizes our own identity rather than letters used to spell a sound and a verbalized name.  society recognizes this and we use our signature as a mark of authentication on items like documents and money checks. in karate sosho is the same. my kata will not look like anyone else. it is a unique mark of my identity as a martial artist.  this is to me why we are artists not scientists.  it is MY kata.   my understanding of the kata and the bunkai along with my own strengths and attitudes should be reflected in the preformance.  one can tell a Van Gogh from Renoir and the difference between Eric Clapton and Chet Atkins.  the problem with this method is that it is very difficult to teach in a group.  organizations cannot make standards and ranking becomes difficult.  for these reasons and others sosho has been pushed aside for the institution of shimejurusan kata.


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## Zero (Feb 12, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> there are two methods for the preformance of kata.   one is "shimejurusan" kata which is an Okinawan term which refers to a textbook perfect kata. this is the common methodology found in Japanese kata.  the concept is that the kata exists of its own accord and it is up to the karateka to give the kata life without mixing in his or her own habits and individual bias. the instructor will often critique the kata with "corrections" like ...your back foot needs to be turned out a liitle more, your action here, needs to be faster and slower here.
> 
> the other method of kata i refer to as "sosho" which is a calligraphy term.  while shimejurusan can be thought of as "block text"   sosho is cursive.  the old joke is that your doctor has the worst hand writting.  there is truth to this.  as we write our own name over and over thousands of times the look and feel of our signature changes and becomes more fluid and in time becomes more of a mark that symbolizes our own identity rather than letters used to spell a sound and a verbalized name.  society recognizes this and we use our signature as a mark of authentication on items like documents and money checks. in karate sosho is the same. my kata will not look like anyone else. it is a unique mark of my identity as a martial artist.  this is to me why we are artists not scientists.  it is MY kata.   my understanding of the kata and the bunkai along with my own strengths and attitudes should be reflected in the preformance.  one can tell a Van Gogh from Renoir and the difference between Eric Clapton and Chet Atkins.  the problem with this method is that it is very difficult to teach in a group.  organizations cannot make standards and ranking becomes difficult.  for these reasons and others sosho has been pushed aside for the institution of shimejurusan kata.



This is very interesting and a good insight, can I ask what style you train in, is it Okinawan goju-ryu?  And if you don't mind, what level? 

For some reason, I have never heard of this separation or approach to kata - don't get me wrong, this difference is of course obvious, but I do not recall ever being told of this formally by my sensei (4th and 5th dans, one who has trained in Okinawa and in Japan) in such a way and with reference to the terms as you have put it.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

K-man said:


> From time to time I have written that Okinawan karate is different from Japanese Karate. Those who know the difference understand where I am coming from but there are many who have limited knowledge of karate that look at the Japanese way as the only way.


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Yes, this is a very important, if not critical distinction....  I've reading back through the MT articles on karate.
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Because the Japanese karate(s) is so popular, the Okinawan styles are often placed in the background....


Drose427 said:


> ...TSD's lineage goes back into Okinawan Martial Arts, but I've never actually had the opportunity to learn about how Okinawan Karate itself came to be.


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My understanding is that the WWII Era onward traditional martial arts in Korea were based or heavily influenced by the Japanese karate, which at that time was just being developed from it's Okinawan ancestors....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

K-man said:


> In a nutshell ... karate began in Okinawa. It was taken into the schools in Okinawa in the early 1900s. When the Japanese saw the health benefits they wanted it too. It was introduced into the schools and universities of Japan mainly due to the efforts of Gichin Funakoshi. His organisation became Shotokan and that had a huge influence on TKD.


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Thanks for the 'nutshell' summary.  I think this is key in understanding what the founder(s) of Japanese karate intended it to be & do, what the Japanese karate was meant to accomplish for it's practitioners....
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IN speaking about Japanese karate, pluses & minuses, your perspective should be the jumping off point--so to speak.  Imperative to the proper use & interpretation of the Japanese karate style.  As well as understanding of it's Okinawan lineages, and the Korean versions.  I call the latter, Korean karate.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

K-man said:


> Of course that leads on to the kata and bunkai where again, the kata you normally see is kihon. It is patently obvious that you don't fight that way. It is how you learn it. However our friends who have no idea jump on kata as being useless, as they have never been shown how it is used.


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This is where I think traditional martial artists involved in karate split into two camps.  Your camp I believe--which I will call the applications camp--is looking specifically at effective fighting techniques.  The simplified Japanese versions can have some problems here....  The other camp, I will call the tradition camp, believes that the techniques and exercises are correct & effective as shown.  
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My take is that either camp is looking for the right answers.  My view is that both camps have merit, and furthermore, it takes a lot of study to ferrite all this out.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

Zero said:


> This is very interesting & a good insight, can I ask what style you train in, is it Okinawan goju-ryu?  And if you don't mind, what level?
> 
> For some reason, I have never heard of this separation or approach to kata - don't get me wrong, this difference is of course obvious, but I do not recall ever being told of this formally by my sensei (4th and 5th dans, one who has trained in Okinawa and in Japan) in such a way and with reference to the terms as you have put it.


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My school adheres to the "textbook" version of kata.  But ultimately, eveyone's kata is an individual form, as is all of one's traditional karate practice....
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Shotokan karate legend, Kanazawa speaks directly to this issue....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

Okinawan vs. Japanese Karate
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My working conclusion is that the Japanese karates are easier to understand & train.  The Okinawan karates are more sophisticated in design & effective in actual combat....  The flip side is that the latter are more demanding in their training, and hence require more time, effort & study to reach that higher level of effectiveness.  More adaptable technique alone will not get you there....


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## K-man (Mar 29, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> This is where I think traditional martial artists involved in karate split into two camps.  Your camp I believe--which I will call the applications camp--is looking specifically at effective fighting techniques.  The simplified Japanese versions can have some problems here....  The other camp, I will call the tradition camp, believes that the techniques and exercises are correct & effective as shown.


There is very little difference between the kata of the Okinawan or Japanese styles. But kata is kihon. Simply training the basics. Certainly the techniques are correct as shown but I cannot see how alone you could call them effective. 


ShotoNoob said:


> My take is that either camp is looking for the right answers.  My view is that both camps have merit, and furthermore, it takes a lot of study to ferrite all this out.


Mmm! I think it's a bit like giving a box of paints to a child and asking him to paint a self portrait. Give the same box to an artist and you will have a totally different result. Certainly both have merit but I know which painting will be more complete.

When I was studying the Japanese style I 'knew' about twenty kata. Since swapping to the Okinawan style I still perform twelve kata but I really don't 'know' any of them. I've got a fair handle on two or three but I keep going back to the beginning and changing things.

So while both camps may be looking for the same things from kata, I think they might be looking in different places. That means they are very likely to come up with totally different answers.


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## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Back in 1974 Tani Sensei Shitoryu/Shokokai taught us that originally his sensei and six others from different ryu from Okinawa toured Japan to popularize Karate. Only names I remember were Gichin Funakoshi and Gogen Yamaguchi. But everybody knows those names. What we did was very upright.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

K-man said:


> There is very little difference between the kata of the Okinawan or Japanese styles. But kata is kihon. Simply training the basics. Certainly the techniques are correct as shown but I cannot see how alone you could call them effective.


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Yes, I know that's how you feel.  I responded briefly to that.  Will add more later....


K-man said:


> Mmm! I think it's a bit like giving a box of paints to a child and asking him to paint a self portrait. Give the same box to an artist and you will have a totally different result. Certainly both have merit but I know which painting will be more complete.


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Yes.  But you presume you are a better judge of that than the creator & forerunners of Shotokan, later the Japanese styles & Korean styles of karate.  I see merit in those Master's perspectives....  And yours....



K-man said:


> When I was studying the Japanese style I 'knew' about twenty kata. Since swapping to the Okinawan style I still perform twelve kata but I really don't 'know' any of them. I've got a fair handle on two or three but I keep going back to the beginning and changing things.


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Yes, I believe that is the better way--to focus on fewer kata, and the Okinawan Masters (the majority) are in line with that....
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This is also 1 reason I am not going onto the "Master" level.  I am concentrating on 'mastering' the Heian kata, perhaps looking at versions of same contained in other traditional karate styles....



K-man said:


> So while both camps may be looking for the same things from kata, I think they might be looking in different places. That means they are very likely to come up with totally different answers.


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Yes & no.  But this is a vast question.  I'm convinced you are taking a serious path, the more 'sophisticated' path.  More sophisticated may not translate into better....  The potential to be better, I agree with your overall thesis....
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P.S. My closer look at the heian kata includes looking at some of quote--impractical & unworkable or unfathomable techniques or bunkai.  I'm not so concerned about these technique flaws as you are....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 29, 2015)

K-man said:


> There is very little difference between the kata of the Okinawan or Japanese styles. But kata is kihon. Simply training the basics. Certainly the techniques are correct as shown but I cannot see how alone you could call them effective.


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Take the taikyoku kata.  Simpleton looking.  I agree.
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I preface this by saying that righ Franklin (IMO) is not the greatest boxer.... a tremendous UFC competitor though....




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My appraisal: Fundamental Shotokan kumite pointing fighting style executed well.....  Basic technique applied properly.


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## K-man (Mar 30, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Yes.  But you presume you are a better judge of that than the creator & forerunners of Shotokan, later the Japanese styles & Korean styles of karate.  I see merit in those Master's perspectives....  And yours....



Not at all. Shotokan is not what Funakoshi envisaged just as Goju Kai has a totally different perspective to Okinawan Goju. They were developed the way they were to teach to the masses. Shotokan and Goju Kai were the dominant styles by far. They were taught in a different way for different reasons.



ShotoNoob said:


> Yes & no.  But this is a vast question.  I'm convinced you are taking a serious path, the more 'sophisticated' path.  More sophisticated may not translate into better....  The potential to be better, I agree with your overall thesis.....


Nothing to do with better. You want to enter competition, the Japanese way is far more defined. You want to understand kata you have to search for yourself the way it is encouraged in Okinawa. But that doesn't mean that a Shotokan practitioner can't also do that. Just that is probably not frequently taught that way.



ShotoNoob said:


> P.S. My closer look at the heian kata includes looking at some of quote--impractical & unworkable or unfathomable techniques or bunkai.  I'm not so concerned about these technique flaws as you are....


I'm not at all concerned with flaws. The only flaws are in my understanding. I don't believe that any of the Heian kata are flawed. I think that Gogen Yamaguchi attempted to copy parts of the Heian kata without understanding what the Heian kata were teaching. We ended up with Goju Taikyoku kata that was just for training basics without much actual meaning.


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## K-man (Mar 30, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Take the taikyoku kata.  Simpleton looking.  I agree.
> |
> I preface this by saying that righ Franklin (IMO) is not the greatest boxer.... a tremendous UFC competitor though....
> ...


You see, I wouldn't have recognised anything as karate in your UFC clip.

As for the Taikyoku kata ...





... great for basic principles, balance and basic technique but nothing to use in a fight. I would rather train the Heian kata and learn the principles of kata. You will still have fundamental Shotokan technique that can be applied as you see fit, with the additional benefits, if you choose to use them.


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## punisher73 (Mar 30, 2015)

K-man said:


> The biggest difference for me would have to be distance. In Japan it was a prerequisite for activities like Judo and Karate to have a competitive aspect. So instead of the grappling Okinawan style that was hands on, Japanese karate was developed with the huge sparring element you see today. That didn't exist in Okinawa although there is a trend towards competition in some Okinawan karate in recent time.
> 
> Another huge difference is the method of training. In Okinawa the training is far less formal than the regimented lines marching up and down the dojo like you see in Japan. Here they are practising kihon, or basics, and unfortunately many Western karate schools have never advanced beyond the kihon, perhaps the main reason why people with little or no karate training jump on the 'karate is useless' band wagon.
> 
> ...



Just to add on to what has been said already.

Okinawan training was very small classes and was individualized training to each student.  Not all students learned kata the same way, or even the same kata in all cases.  When it went to Japan, we must also remember what was happening at the time to them as a whole.  This was the military build up of Japan.  Karate was seen as a way to train young men for military service.  Gone were the family customs and atmosphere of Okinawan karate, and it was replaced with Military style training.  ALL students lined up and did things the same way to commands given.  Importance was placed on doing things without asking or questioning.  It was also at this point that the "rank structure" we know started to come into existence.  Again, it helped with the military structure idea.  To seperate karate from Judo, the throws were all but removed from what Funakoshi first taught when he arrived.

We can also see the transition from a "-jutsu" approach to the "-do" approach.  The stances were lowered and elongated, the punches were now thrown with aesthetics in mind (shoulders squared with the hips, punch at a 90 degree out from the shoulder and parallel to the floor, etc.).  We can see these changes from Funakoshi's first book and what he first taught to the changes that were made later and became Shotokan.  

Also, due to the changes in distancing and certain moves altered removed from their okinawan counterparts (for example, the throw in Wansu was changed to a jumping/turning technique in Empi) the katas were now viewed as a way to practice their kihon and applications bordered on the ridiculous due to lack of understanding.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

K-man said:


> Not at all. Shotokan is not what Funakoshi envisaged just as Goju Kai has a totally different perspective to Okinawan Goju. They were developed the way they were to teach to the masses. Shotokan and Goju Kai were the dominant styles by far. They were taught in a different way for different reasons.


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I'm not as versed as you in the shift from Karate-Jutsu to Shotokan.  I want to look into Goju Kai as well.  I'm going to look closer at the different reasons...



K-man said:


> Nothing to do with better. You want to enter competition, the Japanese way is far more defined. You want to understand kata you have to search for yourself the way it is encouraged in Okinawa. But that doesn't mean that a Shotokan practitioner can't also do that. Just that is probably not frequently taught that way.


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I don't see kata as a competition exercise.  I know the Japanese or others may.  I look at the Japanese kata the same way I would look at the Okinawan or Korean versions...,  I get your philosophical drift between the two in practice....



K-man said:


> I'm not at all concerned with flaws. The only flaws are in my understanding. I don't believe that any of the Heian kata are flawed. I think that Gogen Yamaguchi attempted to copy parts of the Heian kata without understanding what the Heian kata were teaching. We ended up with Goju Taikyoku kata that was just for training basics without much actual meaning.


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Well we are looking at kata differently so some degree.  Unlike you, I believe the Taikyoku kata have immense meaning....


K-man said:


> You see, I wouldn't have recognised anything as karate in your UFC clip.


OK....


K-man said:


> As for the Taikyoku kata ...
> {edit video}





K-man said:


> ... great for basic principles, balance and basic technique but nothing to use in a fight. I would rather train the Heian kata and learn the principles of kata.


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Disagree strongly.


K-man said:


> You will still have fundamental Shotokan technique that can be applied as you see fit, with the additional benefits, if you choose to use them.


Agree....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> Just to add on to what has been said already....
> Also, due to the changes in distancing and certain moves altered removed from their okinawan counterparts (for example, the throw in Wansu was changed to a jumping/turning technique in Empi) the katas were now viewed as a way to practice their kihon and applications bordered on the ridiculous due to lack of understanding.


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I see flaws, some adaptations are ridiculous so far as.  The flaws, adaptations are secondary to the principles of kata as a karate training exercise.  The universal principles of kata are firmly in Shotokan kata, as well as the universal principles of karate are in all of Shotokan karate.  Is Shotokan the best representation of traditional karate principles,? IMO, NO.

That's my general findings....


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## K-man (Mar 30, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Well we are looking at kata differently so some degree.  Unlike you, I believe the Taikyoku kata have immense meaning....


OK, I'm prepared to listen. What do you see in Taikyoku kata that you couldn't achieve simply with drilling the kihon?


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## punisher73 (Mar 30, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I see flaws, some adaptations are ridiculous so far as.  The flaws, adaptations are secondary to the principles of kata as a karate training exercise.  The universal principles of kata are firmly in Shotokan kata, as well as the universal principles of karate are in all of Shotokan karate.  Is Shotokan the best representation of traditional karate principles,? IMO, NO.
> 
> That's my general findings....



I agree.  That is the nice thing about a training device such as kata.  Even with minor changes and in some cases major changes, you can still see the "original template" so to speak from the Shorin-Ryu katas still practiced and see applications of those.  Like you stated, the principles are still there for those who want to find them.  A VERY good example is Iain Abernethy (Wado-Ryu background), but he has gone through and developed excellent kata applications for a civilian self-defense system to end it very quickly.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> I agree.  That is the nice thing about a training device such as kata.  Even with minor changes and in some cases major changes, you can still see the "original template" so to speak from the Shorin-Ryu katas still practiced and see applications of those.  Like you stated, the principles are still there for those who want to find them.  A VERY good example is Iain Abernethy (Wado-Ryu background), but he has gone through and developed excellent kata applications for a civilian self-defense system to end it very quickly.


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Yes, IA has done some very important work there.  Particularly if you are in-fighting, say a boxer....  Or certain self defense adaptations.  Traditional karate is really very layered, like an onion.
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That's one of the very important points there, that the templates carried over, however changed or made for conditioning rather than actual fighting, for instance.  The greater truth (IMO) is that kata is conditioning to fight.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

K-man said:


> OK, I'm prepared to listen. What do you see in Taikyoku kata that you couldn't achieve simply with drilling the kihon?


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Well it's so elemental to the proper practice of TRADITIONAL KARATE.  We have 3 main components (I know you know this cold):
Kihon,
Kata,
Kumite.
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this subject is very deep.  Let me say here that you can go very far in traditional karate just practicing kihon.  That's what my Machida vid was supposed to show.  I know how someone as knowledgeable as you would object to that... so I didn't argue.
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Kata, in a s implied way, is kihon strung together.  In doing so the way the Master's designed such, symbolized by embusen, kata takes on a whole new dimension from kihon.  However, it is the principles in kihon + the principles in kata together that lauch kata into a comprehensive karate exercise, that even prepares one to become a superior fighter by itself (without kumite).  However again, most us benefit and are aided by kumite, that portion of the traditional karate curriculum.
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Strangely enough, in looking at Tang Soo Do, the originators there were also strong believers in kata.  So why did they adopt the modernized-like versions of Shotokan kata for the most part?  Because they saw what I saw maybe....
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The genius of the Taikyoku kata, and Tang Soo Do looks to have similar versions, is it strips away all complexity so one can focus on pure principles....  And BTW, this is the way I became such an excellent striker.  It's also how I became an excellent blocker--for which I have been roundly jested at even at my school--at first.  Of course, I train the rounded curriculum, not just kata.  Funakoshi and his mentors were very enlightened men, IMO.  I still 'hate' Shotokan' as it has evolved.... Shotokan, nothwithstanding my personal feelings,  is still a great karate if done well, and particularly to learn principles from.  Of course knowledgeable such as yourself can learn same from the Okinawan versions, etc.
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Allow me to finish here by saying you don't physically recite Taikyoku kata (the way you see most do it on the internet).  You think yourself through every single motion in every single step of Taikyoku kata.  but really you should be doing this in kihon too.  Few do.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

Practice of Kata / TSD:




This Tang Soo Do young lady is doing a reasonable job of PRACTICING KATA.  Not bad.  TSD kata competition  performances seem to be a little more of what kata should be,IMO, than Shotokan....
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The best example of Japanese karate kata I can think of right know is at the end of the Shotokan Karate-Do with all the blood spitting special effects....  That is dynamica kata; skill you can fight with....
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BTW: Big mistake of her's is leaning forward from waist on certain technique.  Shows concentration on performing the physical move rather than on maintaining the integrity of the body position for TMA strength & power....which is mentally driven.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

HERE'S WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IN TRADITIONAL KARATE:
It'll seem like I selecting out girls for my example, there's are really good vid of guys doing 1-steps badly I just can't find right know.




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She is just physically positioning her body according to the textbook diagram steps.  There is no mental discipline behind mind&body unity.  Doing kihon kata his way is STUPID.[note]
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Now we have to have to make allowance for the physicality ability between men & women.  But the younger CHAMPIONSHIP woman TSD hyung is pretty good, especially for her age....

Note: While it seem unkind,  this black-belt TMA is absolutely going to get slaughtered in any kind of contact fight....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

I DON'T LIKE THIS KATA RENDITION:
I may be all wet ,but this strikes me as someone who knows how to perfectly WALK through kata, going through motions...




|
BTW: Did a little research on these basic kata, hyung, poomse,? whatever....
|
The very first move by this master is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

POINT FOR NOW:
|
There's alot, very alot of people who can tell you the form of techniques in these Kee Cho hyung IL[?], the Taikyoku kata, etc.  That is down block, step & punch, etc.  They can tell all about these moves.  What they don't know is the OKINAWAN WHY behind the moves....  and  it has NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the down block is actually a strike, etc.....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 30, 2015)

TANG SOO DO KATA #1:
Here's the 1st basic kata:  This guy does pretty much everything in this kata that you should do, IMO.  However, his emphasis & consistency are off, wrong....  got some form errors, but it's all there.  He's a somewhat too physical, make allowance most are and he is very well built & physically conditioned.




|
Botton Line: bear in mind it is not the physical outward steps.... in kata, or in kihon or kumite for that matter.

EDIT: Compare this TSD Instructor's opening (Correct except for that lean forward again.... you do not lean forward in this move--PERIOD!)----with the Tiger Kim opening (WRONG, WAY WRONG!).
EDIT#2: Also make allowance it is a teaching, demonstration video.....


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## K-man (Mar 31, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> this subject is very deep.  Let me say here that you can go very far in traditional karate just practicing kihon.  That's what my Machida vid was supposed to show.  I know how someone as knowledgeable as you would object to that... so I didn't argue.


 No doubt you can go a long way just practising kihon. That is the what most karateka do, so why would I object to that?



ShotoNoob said:


> Strangely enough, in looking at Tang Soo Do, the originators there were also strong believers in kata.  So why did they adopt the modernized-like versions of Shotokan kata for the most part?  Because they saw what I saw maybe....


Sure, or that they just wanted the simplified version because they weren't interested in the original fighting systems of the traditional kata.



ShotoNoob said:


> The genius of the Taikyoku kata, and Tang Soo Do looks to have similar versions, is it strips away all complexity so one can focus on pure principles.... Of course knowledgeable such as yourself can learn same from the Okinawan versions, etc.


Sadly the Okinawans don't have versions of Taikyoku kata. They practise the principles from the kihon.


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## Tez3 (Mar 31, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Did a little research on these basic kata, hyung, poomse,? whatever....



If it's TSD it's hyung. It is a simplified version of karate kata with often added kicks. I know them but much prefer Wado versions, actually prefer Wado to the Shotokan versions too.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 31, 2015)

i thought i would post some Oki kata since this is a thread on it,,dont know why we got TSD vids here.  but the comparison is cadence and emphisis is interesting.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 31, 2015)




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## Instructor (Mar 31, 2015)

Great article and discussion thank you for broadening my understanding.  I was especially impressed with the Okinawan exercise implements.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2015)

The first difference it said was that the Okinawan stances are higher. I personally find that if you train in low stances its much easier to transition to high stances than vice versa.


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## Buka (Mar 31, 2015)

I'm thinking that if you ask a native Okinawan Karate man this question......and a native Japanese Karate man this question.......I want to sit ringside.


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## K-man (Mar 31, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm thinking that if you ask a native Okinawan Karate man this question......and a native Japanese Karate man this question.......I want to sit ringside.


Mate, it's a no contest. The Japanese guy will be in the ring by himself!


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 1, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> i thought i would post some Oki kata since this is a thread on it,,dont know why we got TSD vids here.  but the comparison is cadence and emphisis is interesting.
> [edit video]


|
Thanks for contributing.  I found that very interesting as well.  Will take a closer look....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> If it's TSD it's hyung. It is a simplified version of karate kata with often added kicks. I know them but much prefer Wado versions, actually prefer Wado to the Shotokan versions too.


|
Thanks for the TSD hyung perspective.  I found them interesting because TSD practitioners seem to place a larger emphasis on hyung than the Japanese styles as a generality....
|
How would compare the Wado Ryu kata against the Okinawan kata, or say a similar style of Okinawan karate?  Are they much more in line?


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## Tez3 (Apr 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Thanks for the TSD hyung perspective.  I found them interesting because TSD practitioners seem to place a larger emphasis on hyung than the Japanese styles as a generality....
> |
> How would compare the Wado Ryu kata against the Okinawan kata, or say a similar style of Okinawan karate?  Are they much more in line?




From what I've seen the Wado and Shotokan kata are very similar, I don't actually know a lot about other styles kata, only that when Iain Abernethy teaches Bunkai from his Wado katas it seems to be applicable to a lot of styles including TKD.


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## Tez3 (Apr 1, 2015)

However this maybe of interest to karateka because Iain has today just brought out a really good video about the Bunkai of the backflips found in many kata.


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## Buka (Apr 1, 2015)

K-man said:


> Mate, it's a no contest. The Japanese guy will be in the ring by himself!



Lol. True dat!

While aware of the geography, I'm also aware of the differences. That's not to say that members of different styles would ever disagree. Especially not us sweet, open minded Karate guys.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 1, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> I DON'T LIKE THIS KATA RENDITION:
> I may be all wet ,but this strikes me as someone who knows how to perfectly WALK through kata, going through motions...
> 
> 
> ...



so what do you see that is wrong about the first move?  the major thing i dont like is the up and down bounce throughout the kata. now this could just be because he is relaxed and walking thru it,, but i would guess he dosent  even know he is doing it or that the head should be level thru the kata.


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## Tez3 (Apr 1, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> so what do you see that is wrong about the first move?  the major thing i dont like is the up and down bounce throughout the kata. now this could just be because he is relaxed and walking thru it,, but i would guess he dosent  even know he is doing it or that the head should be level thru the kata.



After Wado I did TSD to black belt and that's not how we did that, the feet movements are different as is the 'speed' along with as you say the bounce.
What I think is shows, as with most videos posted up, that different 'groups' do the same things different ways!
Perhaps though it can be see why after Wado ( my first and eternal love lol) I found TSD a bit 'simplistic?


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> From what I've seen the Wado and Shotokan kata are very similar, I don't actually know a lot about other styles kata, only that when Iain Abernethy teaches Bunkai from his Wado katas it seems to be applicable to a lot of styles including TKD.


|
Yes.  That's how I look at traditional karate.  IA's approach fits across styles....  Why his work is so important....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 1, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> so what do you see that is wrong about the first move?  the major thing i dont like is the up and down bounce throughout the kata. now this could just be because he is relaxed and walking thru it,, but i would guess he dosent  even know he is doing it or that the head should be level thru the kata.


|
You know, I tend to move up & down between kata steps.  I get called on that all the time by one of the instructors I work closely with.  Thanks for mentioning that....  You want to keep the head level-ish....
|
On the 1st step issue,  I just put that out for discussion.... really not central to the larger issues, as K-Man says....  But it is a tip-off.


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## Tez3 (Apr 2, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> You know, I tend to move up & down between kata steps



If you are watching a class of students doing the bobbing up and down thing during a kata you get a very definite seasickness feeling!


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> If you are watching a class of students doing the bobbing up and down thing during a kata you get a very definite seasickness feeling!


|
I'm one of the few guilty ones @ my dojo... thank goodness.....


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## Laplace_demon (May 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> Here they are practising kihon, or basics, and unfortunately many Western karate schools have never advanced beyond the kihon, perhaps the main reason why people with little or no karate training jump on the 'karate is useless' band wagon.



I don't follow why you single out Western Karate schools for one dimensional training. Take a look at this:






How does that look any different than Westernised Karate?

And no, there is no point in fast forwarding... This is traditional Shotokan, taught by a Japanese Master (JKA).


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## Tez3 (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't follow why you single out Western Karate schools for one dimensional training. Take a look at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In an American Dojo so it is still 'Westernised' So what do you think is wrong with it....


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## Laplace_demon (May 4, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> In an American Dojo so it is still 'Westernised' So what do you think is wrong with it....



I don't think that's  time well spent, out of all the techniques in Karate.. One guy wanted to talk to me when I got out my TKD school and he commented on this very exact thing, saying they just had him (in Karate) throw never ending straight punches, which, in his own words, was something he could do from his mothers stomach (before being born that is) and not exactly what he looked for in Karate.


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## Tez3 (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't think that's  time well spent, out of all the techniques in Karate.. One guy wanted to talk to me when I got out my TKD school and he commented on this very exact thing, saying they just had him (in Karate) throw never ending straight punches, which, in his own words, was something he could do from his mothers stomach (before being born that is) and not exactly what he looked for in Karate.



Well your boastful 'friend' was incorrect on quite a few points and so are you for believing him. For one thing a baby doesn't sit in the mother's stomach...a baby grows in the mother's womb, a completely different thing.
And what makes you the expert to say what is a waste of time or not? Don't you think you ought to get more experience under your belt before opining on things you don't have any understanding of?


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## elder999 (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't think that's  time well spent, out of all the techniques in Karate.. One guy wanted to talk to me when I got out my TKD school and he commented on this very exact thing, saying they just had him (in Karate) throw never ending straight punches, which, in his own words, was something he could do from his mothers stomach (before being born that is) and not exactly what he looked for in Karate.



*Who's your daddy?!!*


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## Drose427 (May 4, 2015)

elder999 said:


> *Who's your daddy?!!*



Never has this phrase been more relevant


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## K-man (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't follow why you single out Western Karate schools for one dimensional training. Take a look at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry! Where did I say Western Karate schools were one dimensional? What I did say that most have never progressed beyond training kihon and there are several reasons for that.

What you have done (in a thread on the differences between Okinawan and Japanese karate) is post a video of a Japanese style of karate (Shotokan) practising kihon which just happens to be in America and being lead by a Japanese teacher. By itself it means absolutely nothing. We have no idea of what other training they do beyond training kihon.  

So I'm not sure why you are asking why is it different to Westernised karate. It is Shotokan karate kihon being trained the way kihon is trained.


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## Laplace_demon (May 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> So I'm not sure why you are asking why is it different to Westernised karate. It is Shotokan karate kihon being trained the way kihon is trained.



In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.

Just sayin


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## K-man (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't think that's  time well spent, out of all the techniques in Karate.. One guy wanted to talk to me when I got out my TKD school and he commented on this very exact thing, saying they just had him (in Karate) throw never ending straight punches, which, in his own words, was something he could do from his mothers stomach (before being born that is) and not exactly what he looked for in Karate.


I don't think you understand kihon and I'm sure you didn't read the article I referenced in the OP. 

In case you missed it, here is point number 2 ...


> *Why” Over “How”*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## K-man (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.
> 
> Just sayin


Funny that. A short clip of guys training kihon that only contains kihon. What did you expect to see in it? But then again, your post reinforces my point that many Western schools never progress beyond kihon.


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## Laplace_demon (May 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> I don't think you understand kihon and I'm sure you didn't read the article I referenced in the OP.
> 
> In case you missed it, here is point number 2 ...



I don't think your reply was well thought out, but leaving that aside for just a minute. It does verify the mass training in the Top 10 list of the difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate. I would be very interested in how a proponent of this Japanese way of doing it can, in anyway, rationalise how this is nurturing individual growth as a martial artist in Karate. It's robotic mass training.


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## Tez3 (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.
> 
> Just sayin




Good heavens above!!!!! How dare they!!!! What is the world coming to!!!! Upon my word, there'll be letters to the Times about this!!!!


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## K-man (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't think your reply was well thought out, but leaving that aside for just a minute. It does verify the mass training in the Top 10 list of the difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate. I would be very interested in how a proponent of this Japanese way of doing it can, in anyway, rationalise how this is nurturing individual growth as a martial artist in Karate. It's robotic mass training.


Exactly. You haven't been around MT for very long. If you had, or if you had taken time to read some of the other threads on this topic you may have learned that after many years of training Japanese Goju I changed to Okinawan Goju. I am not a proponent of the Japanese way of training at all, but for those who choose that style I am happy for them to do what they obviously enjoy doing and in many cases do extremely well.

I started this thread to point out the differences for those, like yourself, who are unaware that there is an entire different world outside of the type of Karate training promoted in Japan.


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## Laplace_demon (May 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> I started this thread to point out the differences for those, like yourself, who are unaware that there is an entire different world outside of the type of Karate training promoted in Japan.



Perhaps we can reach full circle here. You asserted it was Westernised ideals that have done damage to the perception of Karate in manys eyes. It's clearly Japanese, brought over to the West.


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## K-man (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Perhaps we can reach full circle here. You asserted it was Westernised ideals that have done damage to the perception of Karate in manys eyes. It's clearly Japanese, brought over to the West.


Perhaps you could point me to where I said that? I have never said that and to me what you have written is just plain wrong. I don't believe that at all.


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## Laplace_demon (May 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> Perhaps you could point me to where I said that? I have never said that and to me what you have written is just plain wrong. I don't believe that at all.



Well, this is awkward. It appears that you did indeed group Japanese and Westernised training. My misstake. I am so used to certain Karatekas blaming the West for everything.


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## K-man (May 4, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Well, this is awkward. It appears that you did indeed group Japanese and Westernised training. My misstake. I am so used to certain Karatekas blaming the West for everything.


In the West there are probably representations of every form of Eastern martial art. Some are true to the original teaching, some aren't. I don't have an issue with that and if the training is different, I don't have a problem with that either, unless someone misrepresents what they are teaching.

What this thread was pointing out is that there are significant differences between the karate that was developed in Okinawa in the early 1900s and the karate introduced to Japan some 20 years later. There are several reasons for these differences and they are discussed in the referenced article.

So why is Western training different? Karate was banned along with all other militaristic training post WWII.



> _Then, on October 22, 1945, the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP) notified the Ministry of Education that "dissemination of militaristic and ultranationalistic ideology will be prohibited and all military education and drill will be discontinued." Two months later, on January 4, 1946, SCAP issued Directive 550, which, with its companion Directive 548, required "the removal and exclusion from public life of militaristic and ultra nationalistic persons." One result of these orders was that the Ministry of Education eliminated martial arts from school curricula and another was that the Dai Nippon Butokukai was closed._
> 
> _Although new federations quickly arose to take the place of the Butokukai, its closure still left Japan without a central regulatory authority for martial arts for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, from 1946 until 1948, SCAP actively persecuted ("purged") former fascists. Some of the latter were martial art enthusiasts. This added to the confusion about what was legal and what was not, and the result was confusion in Japanese martial art circles that did not begin working itself out until the late 1940s._
> 
> ...


What was reintroduced after the war were the martial arts that were being trained more for health and fitness than for militaristic reasons. There is no way the Japanese would be showing Westerners the applications of the kihon being taught. Hence the first guys to come from Japan post war taught the same karate they had learned in Japan or Okinawa, the same karate that was taught in the schools and universities. That is pretty much the same as the Japanese karate we see today. It took many years for Westerners to understand that there was far more to karate than was being taught in most schools.

That is not the fault of the West or the Japanese. Those first guys went away and taught what they had been taught. They hadn't been training for long so weren't even advanced students. It it remarkable that karate became as popular as it did. Even so, it was the Japanese styles of Shotokan, Goju Kai and Kyokushin that drove that development and as such Karate, as practised in Okinawa, was hardly seen. That imbalance has persisted to this day.


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## Laplace_demon (May 5, 2015)

Goju Ryu is Okinawan and has always been, since the days of Shotokan, one of the most popular Karate styles, also prominent the West. I don't know why you write that Okinawan styles, with their distinct training methods, have been hardly seen. They clearly have.


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## K-man (May 5, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Goju Ryu is Okinawan and has always been, since the days of Shotokan, one of the most popular Karate styles, also prominent the West. I don't know why you write that Okinawan styles, with their distinct training methods, have been hardly seen. They clearly have.


Goju Ryu is Okinawan, Goju Kai is Japanese. Gogen Yamaguchi did a fantastic job promoting his style of Goju. Morio Higaonna is another who has promoted his form of Goju but that is more like the Japanese style than Okinawan. That is possibly because of the time he spent in Japan.

Now you imply that Okinawan karate is common. Well that certainly isn't the case in Australia and I'm surprised that you think it 'clearly' was available elsewhere. Perhaps you could show me where you got that impression as to my understanding it is only in relatively recent times that Okinawan Karate has become popular.


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## elder999 (May 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Goju Ryu is Okinawan, Goju Kai is Japanese. Gogen Yamaguchi did a fantastic job promoting his style of Goju. Morio Higaonna is another who has promoted his form of Goju but that is more like the Japanese style than Okinawan. That is possibly because of the time he spent in Japan.
> 
> Now you imply that Okinawan karate is common. Well that certainly isn't the case in Australia and I'm surprised that you think it 'clearly' was available elsewhere. Perhaps you could show me where you got that impression as to my understanding it is only in relatively recent times that Okinawan Karate has become popular.



There's been Okinawan Goju in the U.S. for my entire life, I think-certainly for my entire life in martial arts (that is to say, since 1971)....not *a lot* of it, but it was here.....


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## Drose427 (May 5, 2015)

elder999 said:


> There's been Okinawan Goju in the U.S. for my entire life, I think-certainly for my entire life in martial arts (that is to say, since 1971)....not *a lot* of it, but it was here.....



To play the devils advocate, 

That doesn't make it necessarily popular however. I've been to a fee different states in both major and minor cities and I've personally only seen a couple of Okinawan Schools.

That said, some places even in the US are like MA hotspots. So I wouldn't be too surprised to see a Oki school in towns like that


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## K-man (May 5, 2015)

elder999 said:


> There's been Okinawan Goju in the U.S. for my entire life, I think-certainly for my entire life in martial arts (that is to say, since 1971)....not *a lot* of it, but it was here.....


All I was saying was that it wasn't common. The guy who introduced karate to Australia was Goju Kai. We didn't know any different. I didn't see Okinawan Goju for another 25 years. Even now there are very few Okinawan schools in Australia that I can see.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2015)

I would like to point out that George Mattson was the first to bring karate to the east coast of America. Uechi ryu 1958. And it's not rare. I would say it was the predominant karate art in the area until Cerio and Villari kenpo schools came.

I also don't agree that Morin Higaonna represents anything other than Okinawan goju.  Goju has its fair share of controversy and Higaonna is not exempt but I feel without a doubt what he does is okinawan.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 6, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.
> 
> Just sayin



Once you get past the bowing and stretching, that comes out to less than 4 minutes of kihon. I'm not personally a huge fan of this style of practicing fundamentals, but 4 minutes hardly seems excessive or likely to represent the entire class.


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