# hatsumi's skill?



## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved? i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience... if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work... i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective. maybe even ralph changed some things.

not to cause any flame wars but i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art. i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested... but is hatsumi's? i know that he was the original source for ninjutsu but now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

Takamatsu sensei tested it, and Hatsumi sensei's students are testing it constantly around the world. Who cares if Hatsumi sensei doesn't/hasn't?

I've heard some rumors that people showed up at Hatsumi sensei's early seminars in the Western world and were dealt with accordingly, but like I said that's nothing more but rumours.

If you're too eager to pick and choose between techniques, chances are you don't realize what Hatsumi sensei is trying to put across. I for one realize that there are things I cannot realize at this point, but I'm sure as hell not going to admit defeat just because of that.


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

what record is there of takamatsu using it. i know of the hearsay but what documentation is there?

who cares if hatsumi doesn't? well i should hope the practicioners do. if not they are studying an art that they have never seen used by their sensei.

about the practicioners using it everyday...? well good... i hope so.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> what record is there of takamatsu using it. i know of the hearsay but what documentation is there?


While I personally dont have the article or the police report I have to believe they would be obtainable to someone who read japanese...



			
				MBDOJO'S HISTORY SECTION said:
			
		

> *he was attacked by a gang of youths, one of whom was armed with a sword. He defeated them all, one after another, but when the police arrived, Takamatsu was the one who was arrested! Only when it was over did he realize that he had beaten 60 people all by himself. His grandfather Toda came to bail him out of the Kobe Kiryubashi police station, and the event was written up by the Kobe newspaper as "13 Year Old Judo Expert Easily Flung Away 60 Gangsters." *


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved? i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience... if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work... i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective. maybe even ralph changed some things.
> 
> not to cause any flame wars but i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art. i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested... but is hatsumi's? i know that he was the original source for ninjutsu but now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill.



The idea that Hatsumi-soke has no fighting experience is odd, given his background in judo.

I also fail to see how Hayes' toshindo is more "tested" than budo taijutsu.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

Who cares if Hatsumi sensei never used it himself? This art wouldn't have survived for this long if it weren't adequate for the real world.

And arts with lots of high and/or flying kicks wouldn't have lasted long during the Sengoku Jidai either...


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> The idea that Hatsumi-soke has no fighting experience is odd, given his background in judo.
> 
> I also fail to see how Hayes' toshindo is more "tested" than budo taijutsu.


1) no fighting experience using "ninjutsu". and sparring is totally different then actual fighting experience. or do you think its the same? sparring is just a glorified game of tag.
2) that might be your problem... you fail to see. have you ever seen toshindo in action?


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Who cares if Hatsumi sensei never used it himself? This art wouldn't have survived for this long if it weren't adequate for the real world.
> 
> And arts with lots of high and/or flying kicks wouldn't have lasted long during the Sengoku Jidai either...


you should care... how can you claim and effective art if your sensei never has once really used it besides on his uke? and for the rest of the post... 


> 16century Japan. *SENGOKU* *JIDAI*. Sengokujidai means War Period in Japanese


 you don't think high kicks are effective... wouldn't that be speculation?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> 1) no fighting experience using "ninjutsu". and sparring is totally different then actual fighting experience. or do you think its the same? sparring is just a glorified game of tag.


Says the guy who just brought up the usage of RTMS in NHB contests.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> how can you claim and effective art if your sensei never has once really used it besides on his uke?


Is there something physically wrong with your eyes or did you intentionally ignore what I wrote earlier in this thread?



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> you don't think high kicks are effective... wouldn't that be speculation?


Nope. High kicks aren't effective against armed people, skilled grapplers, or if you or your opponent are wearing armour.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson, I think you have an agenda.


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

why such hostility?... i'm just trying to find answers. why would i want to join the bujinkan under a guy who has never once tested what he knows? why would i choose to learn under hatsumi than a guy like hayes who actually went out to test it and hone it? just some questions.

no one here besides technopunk as tried to answer my questions with answers better than "who cares?" if you think a simple question about your teacher is an agenda...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> why such hostility?... i'm just trying to find answers. why would i want to join the bujinkan under a guy who has never once tested what he knows?


Even if Hatsumi sensei had no combat experience whatsoever, you're not seriously suggesting you could become a personal student of his these days, do you? What with your dismay for and/or lack of understanding of Japanese culture and all...



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> why would i choose to learn under hatsumi than a guy like hayes who actually went out to test it and hone it?


Ooookay, so there are no other people with a background in the Bujinkan who has been involved in real life confrontations?


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Even if Hatsumi sensei had no combat experience whatsoever, you're not seriously suggesting you could become a personal student of his these days, do you? What with your dismay for and/or lack of understanding of Japanese culture and all...


 is that ment to insult or offend me? okay.



> Ooookay, so there are no other people with a background in the Bujinkan who has been involved in real life confrontations


i don't know maybe that would be a good start for another thread.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

Yes, it's folly to believe Hatsumi sensei is still accepting personal students.

And once again - if Takamatsu sensei tested it, and Hatsumi sensei's students are testing it all ofer the world around the clock, who cares if Hatsumi sensei hasn't done it a whole lot? 

Why don't you drop Dean an e-mail or something? 

http://www.bujinkan.hr/en/teachers/dean/dean.htm


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## Don Roley (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved? i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience... if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work...



I have to agree with Nimravus about you having an agenda.

But to answer your question- I have had numerous people thank my teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, for teaching them things they said later saved them in a fight. As the translator, I am the guy in the middle of the after action report as Nagase tries to figure out what worked and how the real fights went down.

These incidents lead me to beleive that not only that the techniques work, but the manner in which they are taught are effective as well. I recall that babe Ruth was supposably a terrible coach, despite being perhaps the greatest baseball player of his time. But many people who have trained with my teacher have to do dangerous things and according to them, what they learned with my teacher and the Bujinkan saved them when it was needed.

This does not mean that I am assured that I will do well should there be violence tommorow. Event he best teacher has bad students. But I can see that there is the potential.

BTW- Nimravus, will I see you at my teacher's training on Thursday?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

I'll see if I can make it there at the time.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 29, 2004)

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Technopunk
-MT Moderator-
*


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## RRouuselot (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> 1) i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved? i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience... if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work... i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective. maybe even ralph changed some things.
> 
> 2) not to cause any flame wars but i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art. 3) i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested... but is hatsumi's? i know that he was the original source for ninjutsu but now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill.



1)	Funny you should ask.I was wondering the same thing about you teacher Rick Tew
2)	Oh no.not when you word your question like that.  
3)	So are you still studying by video or are you actually training in person with anyone? (serious question, not intended to be an insult)


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Funny you should ask.I was wondering the same thing about you teacher Rick Tew
> 2) Oh no.not when you word your question like that.
> 3) So are you still studying by video or are you actually training in person with anyone? (serious question, not intended to be an insult)


1) i thought i answered that already... then again you continue to ask the same question. maybe you should take me off the ignore list so you can see my answers.
2)hmm?
3)actually i do multiple ways of study... with rtms i do hsp/rtms club/seminars. and i have also been looking into hayes' stuff.

are these the only answers i'm going to get? 1) you are not japanese so you can't understand hatsumi's skill" 2) "how about you and yours" 3) my personal favorite "who cares?"

all good answers... ha ha ha! you can say my agenda is to find the truth.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> A) 1) i thought i answered that already... then again you continue to ask the same question. maybe you should take me off the ignore list so you can see my answers.
> 2)hmm?
> 3)actually i do multiple ways of study... with rtms i do hsp/rtms club/seminars. and i have also been looking into hayes' stuff.



A) Well, to date, most folks reading our threads think you haven't really answered any of my questions.........and believe me you are not on my ignore list. In fact I have started to follow your posts much closer now that I am getting to understand more about you.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

In the thread I created about Rick Tew that mimics this one, when asked about Tew's merits in competitions you stated (correctly) that the original question was if RTMS has been tested, and not if Tew himself is skilled or not.

This thread is called "Hatsumi's skill" but the question you put forth has nothing to do with his skill level, but is rather about whether or not he has actual combat experience.
You have some serious explaining to do.


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

> you are not japanese so you can't understand hatsumi's skill"



That, in fact, is not what Nimravus nor myself have said at all.

I'm suddenly reminded of the time when you misconstrued some of the things that Dale Seago said about Robert Bussey on another thread, enson. Perhaps you should devote a little more attention to trying to get at what the Other is saying, rather than just projecting onto the Other??


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## Blind (Nov 29, 2004)

This is re Ensons last post.

I dont recall reading you won`t understand because you aren`t Japanese but anyway, if you read carefully the proof of his skill is in how many people he has duped into his phoney unrealistic system . The fact that he has taught (and even his students have taught) many people who have fought in wars or in some line of duty that seem to think his stuff is the bees knees-read Dons post again-is pretty strong evidence. Adding to that his various certificates, that you can no doubt find a list of on the net, he is obviously a type of person who deserves our respect.

Seems to me you just want a ninja story how once Hatsumi was walking down the road and ten guys came at him with swords drawn and he used his powers to defeat them all??? There actually are many stories but as was pointed out if you were not there and don`t have it on film it is just a rumour and can`t be backed up.

I really don`t think you should be asking this question and I think thats the reason people are asking "how about your teacher?"


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## RRouuselot (Nov 29, 2004)

Blind said:
			
		

> I really don`t think you should be asking this question and I think thats the reason people are asking "how about your teacher?"




I think they call that redirecting the heat.  :flame:


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

and they say i'm vague... this thread has nothing to do with sensei tew... lets keep it on topic. can't someone give me a straight answer? well till then...


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## RRouuselot (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> and they say i'm vague... this thread has nothing to do with sensei tew... lets keep it on topic. can't someone give me a straight answer? well till then...




Kool.so in you opinion who would you say has more real world experienceTew or Hatsumi?


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

Quote:


What the matter? Can't take a little heat? Wuss!


that is the bad rep point i got... am i the one that can't take heat? ha ha ha! is that where we are now... name calling? alright...


> Kool.so in you opinion who would you say has more real world experienceTew or Hatsumi?


 not the subject of this thread... maybe that would go under the "whos better, my daddy or your daddy?" thread...


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## RRouuselot (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> 
> What the matter? Can't take a little heat? Wuss!
> ...




Really? I thought the topic was on Hatsumi's skills....I merely asked for you to compare it to someone you actually train with. 
(you do actaully train with Tew don't you?) 
In this way we might be able to compare and contrast skills to determine what skill level hatsumi is at.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

That's it. Now we have a moderator who's trolling. Yes, Enson, I'm speaking about you. Look up confirmatory biases in an encyclopedia and you'll be on picture.

Either you counter the points we've already brought up or you don't say anything at all.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 29, 2004)

If you will check Ensons post, top-right corner and compare it to mine you will notice that while mine says "Administrator", his says nothing.  This is because earlier today Enson resigned his position as moderator here.


Regarding the questions being asked, they are as legit as Besters questioning of Bussey, Tew and Hayes in the AN section.  One cannot insist on the right to question, then limit to who those questions may be asked.

Given the position of honor that Hatsumi holds, it would seem even more of interest to know that he does have legit skill.

It may be wondered, given his age on how his skill is today, compared with when he was at his prime (physically).

Now, while one usually thinks of 'old men' as weak, I have seen on several occations a few grandmasters well into their 70's move with speed, power and 'smoothness' that few 30 yr olds can match.

I have also seen now several of Dr. Hatsumis videos, and while I can't speak for the spoken part (not understanding Japanese at this time), the techniques that I saw were smooth, polished and very lethal looking.

Ensons request for information is legit, in my eyes.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

My mistake. But that still doesn't explain why Enson seems to think Rick Tew's experience has nothing to do with his skill level, and why Hatsumi sensei's experience has everything to do with his skill level.

On all accounts, Hatsumi sensei is far more polished nowadays than he was while in his 50's.


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## Tengu6 (Nov 29, 2004)

I try to make it a point NOT to respond to such riiculous, uninformed posts....but sometimes I just cant resist.

First, Enson....you have all the wrong guys in your corner. Rick Tew, SKH, and Ralph? you know....Ralph has a history in this art that most likely predates your baby blanket....and that history is full of reasons he is no longer welcome in the Bujinkan. Regardless of the story he may tell, he did not "leave" the Bujinkan, he was petitioned and his lisence and membership revoked. End of story.

As far as Toshindo......I was there before Toshindo in an SKH dojo.....I saw the training before.....saw the transition to Toshindo......I was there for it. I know the curriculum. So yes, I have seen it in action. I am now exclusively in the Bujinkan.....as are the vast majority of pre Toshindo people.....why do you think that is? Im not sayinf Toshindo is all bad, but then, I have seen Tae Kwon Do used effectively and I would still want nothing to do with that art either........

I wont even discuss Rick Tew, I have already typed his name twice and that is too much. His training camps sure look like fun for the kids though.

Now on to Hatsumi. There is so much history you seem very unaware of. After Takamatsu passed away, Hatsumi spent years testing to the limits the effectiveness of what was bestowed upon him............this involved many severely damaged Uke's...those Uke's are still with him if you need varification. 

Takamatsus history is documented in China if you care to do the research. Hatsumis skill has been varified several times over.................visit him if you are curious. Thier history is no more heresay than Hayses.

On a side note, this is not directed at Enson, but I know a bujinkan Godan who is very skilled at tae kwon do....another very skilled Bujinkan student was executing a PERFECT hip throw.........the first guy I mentioned executed a hooking heel kick on the way over and knocked him out cold......

never discount the posibility of any technique in the hands of someone who understands the warrior arts.

Finaly, Enson, you must be a mushroom. Everyone seems to keep you in the dark and feed you BS. Lay off the home study course and get your but in a Dojo. read some true Japanese history, and btw, SKH books dont count as true history. I know a Shugenja Priest in Japan who says the info provided by SKH is horribly innacurate at best.


Markk Bush


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## Cryozombie (Nov 29, 2004)

I think something missing from many of these posts too is this:

The question of the effectivness of the art based on Hatsumi's fighting experience is moot, as he did not create the 9 arts... 

The question of the effectivness of the art should be based on "did it, and its grandmasters, survive using it durring the times of conflict in japan's history when they had no choice but to rely on it"

The answer would be yes.

Question Hatsumi's fighting experience all you want... but in the case of our art, the history of the art is much older than the man currently passing it down to us, not the other way around.


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Question Hatsumi's fighting experience all you want... but in the case of our art, the history of the art is much older than the man currently passing it down to us, not the other way around.


i think that is the first real point brought up here on this thread... not, "well what if hatsumi and your teacher fought?" kinda dumb. anyway... what worked in the olden days might not necessarily work today... yeah its good to study tradition, but what happens when tradition is just history? i think even hayes said that in the old days they had to learn how to punch around the armour and other things... if that is the case a new modern version has to be made. now, without getting off topic... 
my question is simply this, what fighting experience does hatsumi have. its one thing to have skills and fluid technique... but what about fight experience? has your own teacher ever used the stuff on anything other than his ukes?


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## Tgace (Nov 29, 2004)

Do you really need "fighting experience" to teach? I would think the pool of qualified candidates would get kinda small.


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## Kizaru (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> ... lets keep it on topic. can't someone give me a straight answer? well till then...


Hatsumi sensei is a well respected member of the Japanese martial arts community in Japan not only because of his title as Soke, the way he carries himself in society or his accomplishments as an artist, but because of his _experience_. As someone mentioned before, there was a period of time when he was going out and "verifying" what he had learned.

As far as former Bujinkan members saying that they've been told by Hatsumi soke himself that they have more _real_ experience than him, well, refer to the "Hatsumi sensei will give you just enough rope to hang yourself" quote. 

As far as the reputation of Hatsumi sensei's teacher, Takamatsu Toshitsugu, there are multiple newspaper articles where his actions have been recorded that can be found in Japan...I'm sure there were other events where police and news media were not involved, but it would be difficult at best to find concrete evidence for those events. I believe this because he has a good reputation, and a good reputation is often a good foundation for investing belief.

In short, Hatsumi sensei has verified for himself what he has been taught, and he has more than a handful of students that continue to "verify" what they've learned from him, not as a "pastime", but as a necessity of their jobs and cultural climates.


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## Kizaru (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> has your own teacher ever used the stuff on anything other than his ukes?


Yes.


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Finaly, Enson, you must be a mushroom. Everyone seems to keep you in the dark and feed you BS. Lay off the home study course and get your but in a Dojo. read some true Japanese history, and btw, SKH books dont count as true history. I know a Shugenja Priest in Japan who says the info provided by SKH is horribly innacurate at best.
> 
> 
> Markk Bush


a mushroom? well okay... i just know what about the buj from what i read. if the info is innacurate all of the sudden then there is a problem... was pretty good when everyone else was reading hayes's books wishing they could one day study in japan like him. now they are not reliable and what not... okay that doesn't really effect me does it?

there is nothing wrong with home study... its just one of my many avenues on my martial road... i'm sure jbran, who is being ranked in your art through hayes' home study program and shogun along with many others think they are getting a good source of study. like i said i also am part of a rtms club(small group) and attend seminars... then again this thread isn't about me.


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> *DUX* sensei is a well respected member of the Japanese martial arts community in Japan not only because of his title as Soke, the way he carries himself in society or his accomplishments as an artist, but because of his _experience_. As someone mentioned before, there was a period of time when he was going out and "verifying" what he had learned.
> As far as the reputation of *DUX's* sensei's teacher, *Senzo "the tiger" Tanaka*, there are multiple newspaper articles where his actions have been recorded that can be found in Japan...I'm sure there were other events where police and news media were not involved, but it would be difficult at best to find concrete evidence for those events. I believe this because he has a good reputation, and a good reputation is often a good foundation for investing belief.
> 
> In short, *DUX* sensei has verified for himself what he has been taught, and he has more than a handful of students that continue to "verify" what they've learned from him, not as a "pastime", but as a necessity of their jobs and cultural climates.


you know if one our dux's practicioners was to say this same thing...
this isn't proof... just hearsay and very well stated opinion.


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## Enson (Nov 29, 2004)

> Don't know if I REALLY &quot;disapprove&quot; here or not, but I haven't dinged you in awhile and I was feeling nostalgic. - The Faceless X


 another bad rep point... what the heck is "&quot". just for questions... weird.


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> you know if one our dux's practicioners was to say this same thing...
> this isn't proof... just hearsay and very well stated opinion.



'Fraid not, enson.

There is no proof that Senzo Tanaka even existed. There is unquestionable proof that Takamatsu walked around Japan several decades ago.

Frank Dux is _not_ a respected member of any martial arts community (except maybe his little circle of students). Hatsumi-soke was a recipient of the International Culture Award by the Japanese Imperial Household:

http://www.winjutsu.com/emperor-award.htm

Furthermore, there is no proof that Dux has gone out and "verified" his martial arts training. His proclaimed history in the military and hunting down codenamed serial killers, as well as his purported "kumite" tale, have been subsquently debunked --- as guys like Mr. Busman will gladly point out in detail.

So, no, 'fraid you're wrong in every way possible there.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i think that is the first real point brought up here on this thread... not, "well what if hatsumi and your teacher fought?" kinda dumb. anyway... what worked in the olden days might not necessarily work today... yeah its good to study tradition, but what happens when tradition is just history? i think even hayes said that in the old days they had to learn how to punch around the armour and other things... if that is the case a new modern version has to be made.


 But... in reality, there are only so many ways for someone to punch, kick, stab, grab, whatever you... Most of those techniques would still be applicable today.  I agree that some are not... but are studied for traditions sake.  Nothing wrong with that.  But think abouy even your comments about armor... What good is a technique that teaches you to grab the chinstrap on a samuari's helmet and jerk his head back nowadays?  None... UNTIL you fight a guy in a motorcycle helmet, or a soldier in his PASGT helmet, and grab the chinstrap to jerk his head back... same same.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> now, without getting off topic...
> my question is simply this, what fighting experience does hatsumi have. its one thing to have skills and fluid technique... but what about fight experience? has your own teacher ever used the stuff on anything other than his ukes?


  Hatsumiu, I dunno, My instructor, yes.


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## Don Roley (Nov 30, 2004)

I think I should point out that many people point to matches such as the UFC when asked about real experience. I do not believe that anything other than a real fight for your life in sudden violence is considered combat proof.

But for those who do think that winning a match has some value, I will point out that Hatsumi gained the rank of fifth dan in Judo and won many honors in that art. He certainly got there by quite a few matches. 

Of course, he then went and trained under a little guy in his 70s who beat him like a red haired step child (where the hell did that expression originate anyways?) by the name of Takamatsu. He then began learning under Takamatsu and is trying to pass along the teachings as he learned them to this day.

I do not think that Hatsumi has ever had to end off a knife welding attacker. He seems too smart to get into that situation and Japan is pretty safe in that regards. But he tries to pass along the lessons from people like Takamatsu who have as accuratly as possible. Technopunk touched on this pretty well. Not all of us on this board are going to face a knife even once in their life. If we say we can't then teach the knife defenses we were taught, there would be a lot less teachers.

This is kind of why I look at people that come up with new systems and new techniques with a little bit of suspicion. Have they tested every last single one of the techniques they teach in a real life or death situation? And if they have, what kind of idiot do they have to be to get into the experience that it normally takes a tradition a few generations of warriors to gain?


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## RRouuselot (Nov 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> This is kind of why I look at people that come up with new systems and new techniques with a little bit of suspicion. Have they tested every last single one of the techniques they teach in a real life or death situation? And if they have, what kind of idiot do they have to be to get into the experience that it normally takes a tradition a few generations of warriors to gain?


 
 Well said.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 30, 2004)

Well here is my opinion for what it is worth! Having used martial skills in the real world, work related and otherwise. I have no doubt in Sensei's ability in the martial arts. Sensei's skill in martial science is of the *highest* order. Having experienced him first hand there is no doubt that if he needed to, he would be a dangerous opponent even at his advanced age. The best thing about what he teaches is the structual integrity of the moves. What I mean by this is that what is being taught does not rely on strength, speed, weight, etc. Even a person who is exhausted, sick, injured, weak, frail etc. would have a chance at using these techniques and being effective if they move their body appropriately and at the right time and in the right space. That is what is so cool about Budo Taijutsu. If you ever have the chance to experience Hatsummi's skill level in person I would highly recommend it. If that is impossible for some reason or other then experience some of his finest students in person at a seminar. Someone like Phil Legare, Mike Pearce, Ed Martin, Jack Hoban etc. More important one would ask why you would ask a question like this unless you have an agenda! I would say to you that life is short, try and train with some of the greats while you can. Men like Soke, Innosanto, William De Thoars, etc. Also try to train with some of the up and coming greats! Hopefully you have had a chance to train with some of the greats who have passed away like Remy Presas, Ueishiba, Parker, Lee etc. In other words don't waste your time with questions like this because in the end your wasting your time to train *with someone of note*. Oh brother, I just wasted some time!!!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Enson (Nov 30, 2004)

so what i'm understanding here is that he has no fight experience, but, he probably would win if confronted? okay if that is good enough for everyone of his practicioners. maybe that is why some "respectable" ma'rs left to form their own organization. disillusioned by his "traditional art". its funny how for someone that has never been in any confrontation... (cause he is to smart for that, and japan is the safest place to live ) could be the source for practicle modern day training. just some thoughts.

so is that what the consensus is saying? he doesn't need experience to know everything that will ever be viable in combat? or is it saying that through all the practicioners here... no one can come up with even any shred of proof that hatsumi has ever been in real combat? not takamatsu or whoever was before him... hatsumi.

i'm not talking about using judo in a sparring match... using the ninjutsu that he apparently is the only real source to go to.

an agenda? well no. i just want to find the facts.
oh yeah if questions warrant another bad rep point then okay!


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## Kreth (Nov 30, 2004)

I realize you're trying to pick a fight, since you don't like some questions about your teacher, but let me see if I can boil down what has been pointed out already.
1. To the best of my knowledge, Hatsumi sensei has neither been in combat, nor has he done any brawling to "test" his training.
2. Traditional systems like the Bujinkan are based on techniques that have been combat tested. If a technique works in a fight, then it may get written down. If not, well then in the case of a life and death struggle, it does not get written down.  Therefore, it is not necessary for every generation's soke to personally test the training. To do so would be re-inventing the wheel.
3. Tanemura, Manaka did not leave because they thought Bujinkan training was ineffective. They left over differences of teaching methods. Where did you hear otherwise? Or were you talking about other "respectable" (your quotes) martial artists?
4. Many Bujinkan practitioners have used their training in rl situations, as law enforcement officers, active duty and reserve military, and other dangerous jobs.

So no, the current grandmaster of the Bujinkan is not combat tested. The training has been, and continues to be tested, by his students, and their students, and so on... Is that what you were looking for?

Jeff


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## Shogun (Nov 30, 2004)

I know this has probably been posted before, but Takamatsu DID test out his aquired skills in what today would be equivelant to Brazilian Vale Tudo contests. Around the turn of the century, Portugese boxers, french kickboxers, english wrestlers, and the like, went to Japan. while there they heard of these small aisan guys who had magical powers, and could throw them down with ease. They basically called them out in public, and Takamatsu wa there to answer. Steven Hayes will tell you this, Enson. Now, if he taught the same techniques to Hatsumi, then hatsumi knows "how to fight". I have been in several fights and can personally attest that no fight is the same. Fighting is not MMA, etc. the only way to know how to fight is to learn body mechanics, and general anatomy. There is no set pattern on how people fight, and being in many of them won't necessarily make you better at them.


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## Enson (Nov 30, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I realize you're trying to pick a fight, since you don't like some questions about your teacher, but let me see if I can boil down what has been pointed out already.
> So no, the current grandmaster of the Bujinkan is not combat tested. The training has been, and continues to be tested, by his students, and their students, and so on... Is that what you were looking for?
> 
> Jeff


well i'm not trying to pick anything... except maybe my nose right now... flu season and all.

so then its settled. hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned... from a guy that used it. so in essence, is passing down something that worked hundreds of years ago that might not work today. so the students of hatsumi are supporting him because they believe their style will work. talk about faith. believing w/o seeing! so if we look at the other side of the coin dux's students can claim the same thing. dux's students can one day say (if indeed it is the case) our sensei/hanshi has not fight experience but is teaching something that he learned from a guy who supposedly used it in a bunch (of course only through rumors and hearsay... maybe some propaganda) of fights.

so are we saying that buj might be a limited art? since it is only moves that worked back then? i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence? i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.

this is not ment to offend anyone. i consider every martial artist regardless of the school to be top notch. this is just ment to get some answers.

peace


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## RRouuselot (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> so what i'm understanding here is that he has no fight experience, but, he probably would win if confronted? okay if that is good enough for everyone of his practicioners. maybe that is why some "respectable" ma'rs left to form their own organization. disillusioned by his "traditional art". its funny how for someone that has never been in any confrontation... 1) (cause he is to smart for that, and japan is the safest place to live ) could be the source for practicle modern day training. just some thoughts.
> 
> so is that what the consensus is saying? he doesn't need experience to know everything that will ever be viable in combat? or is it saying that through all the practicioners here... no one can come up with even any shred of proof that hatsumi has ever been in real combat? not takamatsu or whoever was before him... hatsumi.
> 
> ...


 
       Enso,

 Your question is not a bad one but you attitude kind sucks. One cant help but think you started this right as either a way to defer some of the heat you were getting about your own sensei or simply just lash out at the same people that had questions about him. 

 Here something that might be hard for you to understand. Hatsumi didnt invent the art he trains in.others didmost likely it was tested and polished in some way over the last few hundred years by them. Unlike Rick Tew, your sensei who claims he has invented a better more practical art. So here we need to ask better and more practical than what? Stuff traditional that has been used and tested for centuries? 

 If so then Tew needs to cough up some proof as to WHY he thinks it is in the form which techniques of his work better than the traditional ones.he needs to do it in the same manner the traditional Ninjutsu was tested.maybe some well trained swordsman intent on choping his head off with a nice sharp sword. Doesn't even have to be a sword even a semi-sharp butter knife would do........
   Otherwise he, like you, is just talking smack. 


       Here is a wild hair why dont you hop on a jet and challenge Hatsumi to a fight..



       1) You ever been to Japan?
     2) Hell, even I can see you have an agenda and I don't have a dog in this fight.


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## heretic888 (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> well i'm not trying to pick anything... except maybe my nose right now... flu season and all.
> 
> so then its settled. hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned... from a guy that used it. so in essence, is passing down something that worked hundreds of years ago that might not work today. so the students of hatsumi are supporting him because they believe their style will work. talk about faith. believing w/o seeing! so if we look at the other side of the coin dux's students can claim the same thing. dux's students can one day say (if indeed it is the case) our sensei/hanshi has not fight experience but is teaching something that he learned from a guy who supposedly used it in a bunch (of course only through rumors and hearsay... maybe some propaganda) of fights.
> 
> ...



Contrary to the rhetorical language you are using, enson, you must assuredly are attempting to offend others, start fights, and in general malign the Bujinkan.

This has been covered before: if you think the only people "worthy" of teaching self-defense and combatic teachings are ones that have used them --- well, then, you got yourself a really short list to go by.

Its kinda funny, that. In Ninpo, one's ability to _not_ get into violent confrontations is generally seen as a strength --- not as some deficiency, as you are portraying it to be.

Also, I don't recall anyone claiming the Dux system is "ineffective", as opposed to "fraudulent".


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 30, 2004)

I think you have missed several of the points that were made.

In the military, certain drills are taught today by instructors who have never used them in combat.  They were taught in many cases by instructors who also did not see combat.  That does not make the lessons contained within the drill any less effective, and that knowledge is right now being re-tested in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.  Note, I said re-tested, as it was originally developed by combat veterans.

Hatsumi does not need to have re-tested it.  His instructor passed down techniques that have been tested, again and again, over centuries of refinement and study.  His students take the lessons, test them and have re-proven them.

Frank Dux has had his statements and history verified wrong, and his techniques examined by those who do know, and they say those techniques are poor. 

As to "Limited", while the probability of encountering an armoured samurai weilding a katana is rather slim on the Chicago streets, one might encounter a heavily padded biker swinging a bowie.  He may even be wearing ceramic plate armour (if he's really intense).  The fancy high kick to the head will only result in a rather messy ending of ones ability to pass on genes. (TKD kicks being designed for a different opponent, and different terrain).  Understanding how to avoid a sword slash may not be 'practical'..unless ones opponent is swinging a machette, or a shovel.

The concepts of most serious arts may focus on a particular 'prop', but have been proven to be valid in general as well as specific situations.


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## Kreth (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> so are we saying that buj might be a limited art? since it is only moves that worked back then? i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence? i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.


You don't seem to be reading entire posts, just picking what you want to read. And the tone of your posts is definitely intended to incite flames, regardless of what you say. Let me put things this way. I am not a compliant uke (training partner). If someone asks me to demo, and they have a high rank, I am going to do my best to smack/kick/choke/crush them. Now, I *do* have a bit of bar fight (that real world enough?) experience under my belt. I'd never call myself a street fighter, or expert on the subject, but I've won my share, both as a drunken, stupid jarhead, and as a bouncer for bars in NC and here in NY. Having said that, Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan tossed and smacked me around like a playtoy, even with probably close to a 100 lb weight disadvantage. That to me isn't blind faith, it's rather convincing proof.

Jeff


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## Cryozombie (Nov 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> on the Chicago streets, one might encounter a heavily padded biker swinging a bowie. He may even be wearing ceramic plate armour


 You just described me exactly when I am out repoing cars in Chi-town.  Thats weird.


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## George Kohler (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> so then its settled. hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned...



Actually, according to Tanemura Sensei, Hatsumi sensei did have some fights with some foreign Judo practioners. If I remember correctly, they lost to Hatsumi Sensei and they became students of his. One of those students was Doron Navon, who went to Japan to hone his Judo skills, but later left that art to study with Hatsumi Sensei.

BTW, Doron Navon and Danny Waxman, both students of Hatsumi Sensei who studied Judo prior to studing under Hatsumi Sensei, were in Donn Draeger's book _Judo Formal Techniques: A Complete Guide to Kodokan Randori no Kata_. It is possible that the other Judo person that I mentioned above could have been Danny Waxman. Danny Waxman, now a 6th dan in Judo, won the Israeli Judo Championship in 1969.

If you are talking about combat experience, that you gain in war, then disregard what I said above, because the last time Japan was at war was during WWII. Hatsumi Sensei was too young at the time.


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## George Kohler (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> what record is there of takamatsu using it. i know of the hearsay but what documentation is there?



The only records of Takamatsu Sensei fighting in Japan and China are his autobiography articles in Japanese Budo newspaper/magazine in the 1960's. I can't remember the name of the newspaper/magazine, but if you want I can go home and find the name.

Also, according to Tanemura Sensei, not only did he fight several chinese martial artists, but also a person with the last name of "Smith" (sorry, his first name is not known) who was challenging people. Smith was using English Boxing. There is an article in the Japan Times (November 7, 1913) about a German with the name "E. M. Smith." in Japan. I don't know if this is the same person. The article can be found here. The fight was said to have been fought in China, though. It could be possible that this same "Smith" went to China as well. The time periods match.


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## MJS (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.
> 
> peace



Enson-

I know that you said that Tew has some supposed fights under his belt.  Are these documented?  If so, where?  In addition, you also stated that there are NHB fights that are also supposedly documented.  What events?  Who fought? Dates?

Mike


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## RRouuselot (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> 1)i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... its interesting to learn hatsumi has no experience outside of a padded dojo.
> 
> 2) this is not ment to offend anyone. i consider every martial artist regardless of the school to be top notch. this is just ment to get some answers.
> 
> peace


 1) How about you? Ever been in any "real" situations where you were required to call on "Tew Ryu"? If so, care to share any of them with us????
  2) Oh, of course not......


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## Enson (Nov 30, 2004)

i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. i have just tried to find the facts... but, getting mad and trying to insult or put me on the spot is not helping your position. if you want to know about me then start a thread. but then again why would anyone want to know about my experience? ha ha ha!


this thread is not the place to ask me about my teacher or myself. so i will ask again...

what combat/fighting experience does hatsumi have? the answers have been "he has none", "your senseis do but your soke doesn't" that to me is a oxy moron.  "what about you?" which has nothing to do with this thread... "you have bad breath" okay... i made that one up! "what about your teacher?" which still doesn't have anything to do with this thread... the funny thing is there are people here that are apperanlty getting insulted but have no ties to hatsumi... are there secret students out there?:idunno: 

if your soke is a public figure, which he is... then there should be some clear answers. so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults. lets all find the facts together.

peace


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## Enson (Nov 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) How about you? Ever been in any "real" situations where you were required to call on "Tew Ryu"? If so, care to share any of them with us????
> 2) Oh, of course not......


isn't this sniping? or at least baiting? well i guess the mods let this one get through the cracks.


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## MJS (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. i have just tried to find the facts... but, getting mad and trying to insult or put me on the spot is not helping your position. if you want to know about me then start a thread. but then again why would anyone want to know about my experience? ha ha ha!
> 
> 
> this thread is not the place to ask me about my teacher or myself. so i will ask again...
> ...



This topic is certainly getting off track.  The title is about skill, NOT combat, and there is a difference, and this quote addresses it.




> In the thread I created about Rick Tew that mimics this one, when asked about Tew's merits in competitions you stated (correctly) that the original question was if RTMS has been tested, and not if Tew himself is skilled or not.
> 
> This thread is called "Hatsumi's skill" but the question you put forth has nothing to do with his skill level, but is rather about whether or not he has actual combat experience.
> You have some serious explaining to do.



Enson-  It is apparent that you're starting these threads in light of the ones that were started about Tew.  You're complaining about not getting any answers, but yet you provide no or very vauge answers yourself.  

Again, last time I checked, this thread was about Hatsumis skill, not the fights that he has had.  If you want to know about his fights, start a new thread!!

Mike


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## George Kohler (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> if your soke is a public figure, which he is... then there should be some clear answers. so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults. lets all find the facts together.



Enson,

Did you read my post? Just to make sure there is no confusion from my post, Tanemura Sensei was an eye witness.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 30, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. i have just tried to find the facts... but, getting mad and trying to insult or put me on the spot is not helping your position. if you want to know about me then start a thread. but then again why would anyone want to know about my experience? ha ha ha!
> 
> 
> this thread is not the place to ask me about my teacher or myself. so i will ask again...
> ...





Enson, 

If the Mods want to slap a suspension on me or boot me off here I can live with it
However, it seems to me, and more than a few others, that you started this thread in retaliation to the one that was started about your buddy Tew.


Your questions were answered several times by several of his students and very directly I might add. 
You got any other questions?


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## Cryozombie (Dec 1, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> isn't this sniping? or at least baiting? well i guess the mods let this one get through the cracks.


 Enson, 

 The mods for this section (mainly me) are not on 24/7, if you need somthing brought to our attention, please use the Report Post button, that way the item can be brought to our attention.

 Thanks.


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## Blind (Dec 1, 2004)

George Kohler said:
			
		

> Enson,
> 
> Did you read my post? Just to make sure there is no confusion from my post, Tanemura Sensei was an eye witness.


Yes! Hatsumi actually spoke about one of the challenges he recieved once(I was there-to hear the story), apparently when it became known that a relatively young Soke existed a few people did turn up- it wasn`t made to sound life and death or anything but I don`t think it was light hearted either.

Enson, do you just want to keep asking the same question and say it`s not good enough? He has trained people all over, he is well respected by many many people. You think it is rediculous that people who study from him have put it into real situations yet he hasn`t? 

Thats your answer right there, there are a quite a few people he has trained that do trust their lives with what he teaches and think he knows what he is talking about. Do you think those types of people wouldn`t realise if they were being taught rubbish?

I don`t see what more can be said.

Bujinkan people good or bad are happy doing what they are doing, "being ninjutsu traditionalists that hide behind scrolls and names?"or something to that effect. If they weren`t then they would stop or do something else.

You seem happy to practise(assuming you do) Gymnastics and self confidence while throwing in a few locks and punches from some art (Hapkido?) in order to become "real combat" practical. Taking the word of a guy who looks, which can be decieving I know, to be making Van Damme movies his lifes reality, I can understand people wondering who he is. Thats fine if that`s what you want though.

I may be wrong but I think the original line of questioning about Rick Tew was to find out if he had actually done much training or was he just another "I have been training for ten(?) years and I look pretty good so I can start a school and pay my rent" type guy.

You have shifted the goal posts with this thread going from "is Hatsumi skilled" to "yes but how can you prove it if he has never been in real mortal combat".
Have fun jumping around in The Grand Canyon.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 1, 2004)

Ok let's see if I can follow this, because I have a lot of questions for you, Enson, before I would be able to help you further.

#1 

*"i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved?"*

Hatsumi-sensei has used his ninjutsu training successfully to become a wonderful human being and to stay out of trouble. Getting into fights would actually be a failed use of ninjutsu.

*"i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience..."*

First of all, Ralph Severe is a bully who likes to fight, and uses things such as his supposed record of street fights and his constant criticism of the Bujinkan as marketing for his own school.

*"... if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work..."*

I believe this has been answered adequettely.

*"...i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore..."*

And that is supposed to make us conclude what? That Bujinkan techniques are ineffective because Mr. Hayes doesn't use some of them? That Hatsumi doesn't have fighting experience - or even skill - because one of his former students has made changes to the way Bujinkan-derived techniques are taught?

*"... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective."* 

So that's the conclusion? Mr. Hayes doesn't use certain techniques and that means that Bujinkan techniques are not all effective, and that is due to Hatsumi not having fighting experience?

*"...maybe even ralph changed some things."*

Ralph changed a lot of things, and because of his behavior was ejected from the Bujinkan before he could become a judan.

*"... i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure ..."*

Oh he is? I thought he was a man - turns out he's actually a god. Neat.

*"...and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art."*

He (Hatsumi) is practicing a tried art. Do you mean that it would be nice if he had to save his life in a fight using the skills he has mastered? What's so nice about that? I wouldn't wish that fate on anybody.

*"... i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested..."*

Tested by whom? Mr. Hayes? And where do you think he learned "his stuff?"

*"...but is hatsumi's?"*

As has been repeated several times. Many of Hatsumi's students have had to use the skills they learned from him, and so has Hatsumi's teacher. 

If you are trying to draw the conclusion that the Bujinkan style is ineffective because the head of the organization has no fighting experience, you have failed. 

*"... now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill."*

So many others? Like what? 3? 4? And so much more skill? According to whom? Your expert analysis?

#3

*"who cares if hatsumi doesn't? well i should hope the practicioners do. if not they are studying an art that they have never seen used by their sensei."*

Why would Bujinkan practicioners care that they haven't seen their sensei use his skills in a real fight as long as they are being shown how to properly train themselves to protect themselves in real fights (and that clearly is the case).

You are obviously trying to draw erroneous conclusions. Your question has been answered. Others are not reacting negatively towards you because of your questions, but because of your attitude.

#19

*"are these the only answers i'm going to get?"*

What more do you need? You asked a question. It was answered and further qualified to help draw the proper conclusion. 

#34

*"'well what if hatsumi and your teacher fought?' "*

I would like to know who you are attributing the above quote to. I don't remember seeing anyone say that.

#39

*"you know if one our dux's practicioners was to say this same thing..."*

No, there is no comparison.

#46

*"so what i'm understanding here is that he has no fight experience, but, he probably would win if confronted?"*

That is irrelevant (but I would guess that he would - in fact, I have so much faith in his abilities, that he would effectively avoid such a confrontation). What is important, is does Hatsumi-sensei have enough knowledge and skill to pass on to his students so that they would win if confronted. Thousands of people believe he does. Many of those have proven it to themselves - myself included. I have never trained directly with Hatsumi-sensei, but I have trained with people that have so I am not far-removed from the source. Because of that transmission (from a person with no combat experience) I have successfully defended myself in dangerous situations on numerous occasions.


*"...maybe that is why some "respectable" ma'rs left to form their own organization."*

Yeah, some. Can you name them? My point is you probably can, because there is only a handful. Compared to the thousands that are satisfied with soke's teachings, those few are insignificant.

*"its funny how for someone that has never been in any confrontation... could be the source for practicle modern day training."*

I guess it's just your sense of humor that makes you find that funny, 'cause as funny as you think it is, it's true.

*"he doesn't need experience to know everything that will ever be viable in combat?"*

Whose mouth are you putting these words into? How did you decide this was the consensus?

*"through all the practicioners here... no one can come up with even any shred of proof that hatsumi has ever been in real combat?"*

No one here is trying to prove such a thing. Your agenda (yes you have one) is to disprove that notion (even though no one was trying to prove such a thing in the first place), and you accomplished that. Congratulations.

#49

*"so then its settled."* 

Your question has been answered, yes, but the matter is not settled, because your agenda to debase the Bujinkan is relying on erroneous conclusions drawn from an illogical pool of non-sequitors with no proper antecedent information to back them up - and that is in addition to ignoring the rationally-stated testimonials of the members of this forum who were so kind to take time out of their day to help you.

*"hatsumi who has no fighting/combat experience, is passing down something that he learned... from a guy that used it. so in essence, is passing down something that worked hundreds of years ago that might not work today."*

You have not provided the sources to properly draw this conclusion. You are trying to obtain the conclusion that Bujinkan skills are ineffective in fights based solely on the experience of the organization's founder.

*" so if we look at the other side of the coin dux's students can claim the same thing."*

That isn't even the other side of any coin. There is no comparison. This appears to be another part of your agenda - to validate the teachings of Dux. Sorry, but that is a lost cause.

*"so are we saying that buj might be a limited art?"*

"we?" who in this thread (besides you in that instance) has said that? What logical train of thought did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

*".. since it is only moves that worked back then?"*

And how are you drawing this conclusion?

*" i know that some will say these are battle tested... but against the samurai. what about street gangs and other types of violence?"*

You have completely ignored the mentions of *present-day* Bujinkan students who have tested the skills in battle and on the street. Ignoring the evidence does not make it go away.

Who said anything about samurai in this thread? If you will accept that Takamatsu used his skills in real fights, do you think he faught against samurai?

*" i don't know hearing all this makes you stop and think... "*

Yeah, it makes us think you have an agenda, and that your skills in logic are dismally lacking.

*"this is not ment to offend anyone."*

Really?!!  

*"this is just ment to get some answers."*

You got your answers a long time ago, and then you drew illogical conclusions to try to accomplish your mission of debasing the Bujinkan - and what could possibly be your motivation for that? 

#59

*"so i will ask again..."*

Why ask again, if the question has been adequettely answered - numerous times?

*"what combat/fighting experience does hatsumi have? the answers have been 'he has none', . . . "*

Why is that answer not good enough for you?

*" 'your senseis do but your soke doesn't' that to me is a oxy moron. "*

You obviously don't know what an oxymoron is then. I would also like to know who you are attributing that quote to.

*"i know that many are offended because i have asked these questions. ...the funny thing is there are people here that are apperanlty getting insulted but have no ties to hatsumi... "*

People are being offended by your attitude, not your questions. You had one question. It was answered. The people "apperanlty getting insulted" that have no ties to Hatsumi aren't in fact being insulted as such, except by your blatent misuse of logic in trying to carry out your agenda. They are merely trying to correct you where you go wrong. I'm sorry if you find that insulting.

We are putting you on the spot, because this thread lost its usefulness on page 1 - somewhere around post #2 - when the question was answered.

*"there should be some clear answers."*

Does your computer monitor need some Windex? There was one question, it was answered - clearly.

*"... so far just hearsay, propaganda, and insults."*

Hearsay, maybe; insults, perhaps - but propaganda? What propaganda has there been in this thread besides you saying that the Bujinkan is bunk? 

*"lets all find the facts together."*

What other fact are you trying to find?


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## Don Roley (Dec 1, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> In the military, certain drills are taught today by instructors who have never used them in combat.  They were taught in many cases by instructors who also did not see combat.  That does not make the lessons contained within the drill any less effective, and that knowledge is right now being re-tested in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.  Note, I said re-tested, as it was originally developed by combat veterans.
> 
> Hatsumi does not need to have re-tested it.  His instructor passed down techniques that have been tested, again and again, over centuries of refinement and study.  His students take the lessons, test them and have re-proven them.



Good point. Maybe instead of talking about the experience of Hatsumi, we should be talking about the experience _that flows through_ Hatsumi. After all, the charecter for "ryu" is also pronounced "nagare" and means "to flow."

But, and the same time, there is the very valid question of whether Hatsumi managed to retain those lessons picked up over time and is now passing them along now. And of course, the question we should all be thinking about is _have we_ learned the lessons that have been paid for in blood before us. After all, anyone who has been in martial arts for a good length of time can point to people who have trained under skilled teachers but never "got it."

Based on the fact that Takamatsu kept Hatsumi around for so long and named him his succesor, and the large number of people who credit his teachings with saving their lives, I think we can say that Hatsumi probably gets it.

But what about us?

I think it was Ed Lomax that first used the term, "an 800 year old security blanket." I have seen people who really don't know the first thing about the Bujinkan point to its long history as if by the mere fact that they have set foot in the Bujinkan dojo that they are doing things that are assured to work. The worse the understanding, the more they seem to point to the history of the art to make it seem like they are really bad dudes in a fight.

Well, I decided long ago to go out and get some first hand information on what went on in a fight. Not by starting my own- I ain't that stupid.  :ultracool But by learning what I could from people whose experience with deadly violence could be proven. (Police reports, medical records for wounds, etc) I learned defense against a knife from an ex- street thug who had faced them on numerous occasions. I learned how to use a knife from a guy who had used them to kill as part of the S.O.G.. And so on and so forth. Alain Burresse, Peytonn Quinn, etc, etc....

And you know, the more experience the guy has, the more what he says seems to echo what my teacher in Japan says. Of course it has a lot more impact when someone who pulls up his sleeve to show you his knife scars tells you that you need to have the mind set that no matter what happens you will do more damage to the other guy than he does to you than when a Japanese recites the saying, "if you cut my skin I will crush your bones", etc..

I learned so much from these guys, even though a lot of what they taught was the same as what I could learn in Japan. But instead of sitting on the experience of my tradition, I challenged my perceptions and went out to see what I could learn. It was a fantastic experience to look at the teachings from a different angle. There are differences out there, but questioning why other combat proven arts do things in slightly different ways also is a good way to wake up and look at things with new eyes. I honestly think that more people in the Bujinkan should do the same.

I will let Enson get back to his crusade now.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 1, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> A) i'm just wondering if anyone has ever seen or has ever heard of hatsumi using the ninjutsu training he has recieved? B) i think ralph severe said that hatsumi has no fighting experience... C) if that is the case how do you know your technique is going to work... D) i saw hayes doing a bujikan move that he doesn't use anymore... i think he said he went out and tried to use what he had learned. i guess he found that its not all effective. maybe even ralph changed some things.
> 
> E) not to cause any flame wars but i know hatsumi is worshipped beyone mearsure F) and it would be nice to know that he is practicing a tried art. G) i have thought of joining hayes because i know his stuff is tested... but is hatsumi's? H) i know that he was the original source for ninjutsu but now there are so many others that have branched off from him that seem to have so much more skill.



A)	That question was answered not once but several times by several different people here.
B)	You think there might have been this guy that knew someone that had a brother that might have heardbasically you are asking a question based on hearsay at best. Did YOU actually hear Ralph Severe say this?
C)	The same way you know if your technique is going to work every time in every fight..nobody knows anything for sure.
D)	Was it Hayes fault or the techniques?  Seriously, did he do the technique correctly in whatever situation he tested it in?
E)	What gives you the idea he is worshiped? He maybe respected but I doubt there is some guy out there praying to Hatsumi so that his sick grandmother will get better. Being a religious man I am pretty sure you know the meaning  of worship right?
F)	With 8 centuries behind it I am guessing it may have been tested once.maybe twice. 
G)	I thought you were a dyed in the wool Tew man..what gives? You want to join Hayes because his stuff is testedwhy? Isnt Tews stuff tested? OR Did you just inadvertently say Tews stuff wasnt tested? 
H)	Who branched off? How do you know they have more skill? Did you personally check them out and compare them to your personal training with Hatsumi? I think its only respectful to comment on whether a person has skill or not until after you have seen what they do.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 1, 2004)

I think if you question a mans ability, you should go to his dojo and respectfully ask him for a fight, when you sign the release, your clouds will be removed.


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 1, 2004)

wow, enson......by making these posts i think you lost any shred of credibility you might have had left.
you have no definition for the word combat it seems.
you've never combat tested your skills.
you have no respect for anyone, and this is no fact finding mission. you have no respect for the facts or for anything by the sounds of it.
i'd be surprised if anyone would let you step foot in their school(and i dont mean video or virtual school either).
good luck in your studies.

shawn


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## KenpoTess (Dec 1, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

Ok.. this has gone on way to far.. The question has been asked and answered and now this thread is being closed.
Provoking, Attacking and Retaliation are in violation of Martial Talks rules and Policies.   http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=315112#post315112

Members who have been warned and not heeding the rules will be dealt with.  

Civility Gentleman.......

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-
*


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