# Clinch Pick Knife



## K831

Here is an article (with pictures) written by the company "shiv works" about their knife the "clinch pick". Not sure that I would make it my EDC but I like where they are going with the thought process, and I really like the intended carry position and draw angle, left or right hand. 

I though some of you might find it interesting;

http://www.shivworks.com/clinchpick.asp


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## Carol

[goofball]

Wow! A tactical blade designed with the fighter in mind instead of the LARPer!  

[/goofball]


In all seriousness, it wouldn't be my EDC either, but I can definitely see scenarios where using that blade as a regular carry would be helpful.  

Interesting choice of steel too, considering this is a blade that might be worn strapped to a sweaty back.  S30V is a bloody expensive metal to forge but it very strong and highly resistant to corrosion.  

I do wish they packaged these with trainers though.  Drives me nuts to see so many blade makers make a blade you can fight with, but not train with.


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## K831

Carol Kaur said:


> I do wish they packaged these with trainers though.  Drives me nuts to see so many blade makers make a blade you can fight with, but not train with.



Isn't that the truth!


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## Blindside

Carol Kaur said:


> I do wish they packaged these with trainers though.  Drives me nuts to see so many blade makers make a blade you can fight with, but not train with.



It does, from the Shivworks product page:
*THE                    CLINCH PICK* S30V Stainless; G-10 Scales                   *
$240.00*
Titanium / embedded carbide edge; G-10 Scales *
$309.95*
Trainer, Red handles, no edge *
$95.00*
+ S&H


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## frank raud

Carol Kaur said:


> [goofball]
> 
> Wow! A tactical blade designed with the fighter in mind instead of the LARPer!
> 
> [/goofball]
> 
> 
> In all seriousness, it wouldn't be my EDC either, but I can definitely see scenarios where using that blade as a regular carry would be helpful.
> 
> Interesting choice of steel too, considering this is a blade that might be worn strapped to a sweaty back. S30V is a bloody expensive metal to forge but it very strong and highly resistant to corrosion.
> 
> I do wish they packaged these with trainers though. Drives me nuts to see so many blade makers make a blade you can fight with, but not train with.


 
I can't see the clinch pick as a knife to be carried strapped to the back. It defeats parts of the design and concept of the knife itself. As well the egg shaped handle would "print" significantly. The knife is actually fairly discreet with off center carry, as designed.

All the knives that Southnarc has designed have trainers available. Having trained with him multiple times over the last 7 or so years, I can definitely say his knives(and sheath setups) are designed for a purpose, not as some Gil Hibben fantasy blade.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Not a knife I would use as an EDC but that does not mean it is not an exceptional piece of craftsmanship.  I like the work that southnarc does with his company!


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## frank raud

For you folks in the Northeast, Southnarc will be holding a seminar in New Hampshire in September and one in upstate New York in October.

http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp


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## Carol

frank raud said:


> For you folks in the Northeast, Southnarc will be holding a seminar in New Hampshire in September and one in upstate New York in October.
> 
> http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp



Sweeeet!  I did not know that.  Thanks!  :asian:


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## arnisador

Carol Kaur said:


> I do wish they packaged these with trainers though.  Drives me nuts to see so many blade makers make a blade you can fight with, but not train with.



You're singing my song!

Interesting design, but it seems to presuppose you'll be in a certain type of encounter...


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## K831

arnisador said:


> You're singing my song!
> 
> Interesting design, but it seems to presuppose you'll be in a certain type of encounter...



I agree. It is certainly purpose built for a niche application. 

Who do you suppose was the target market?


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## Carol

K831 said:


> I agree. It is certainly purpose built for a niche application.



I'm also thinking that particular application (depending on circumstances) is going to make it a helluva lot easier to justify using that level of force.



> Who do you suppose was the target market?



The sub 3" blade length looks like it was designed with the civilian in mind (compliance to more restrictive post-9/11 blade laws).  I'm thinking the person who carries (or is willing to carry) more than one blade...er....tool.  Yeah, tool, that's it.   To me it looks like something to compliment, not replace, an EDC.


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## arnisador

Or for grapplers who figure they'll always go for the clinch...


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## frank raud

K831 said:


> I agree. It is certainly purpose built for a niche application.


 
Where do you see it working, and more importantly, where do you see it not working? If it is a niche application(I will agree that, it is a self defense knife, not much good for camping or spreading butter), what are you seeing as it's limits?


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## Archangel M

The prices of these things make me think that they are nothing but cash cows for the manufacturers and talismans for the buyers.....


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## frank raud

Archangel M said:


> The prices of these things make me think that they are nothing but cash cows for the manufacturers and talismans for the buyers.....


 
You're probably right, unless the cost of making semi-custom knives by highly recognized bladesmiths, and having the heat treatment for the blades done by Paul Bos, is more expensive than compared to a mass produced factory blade.

Maybe compare them with other knives by the same maker http://www.thrblades.com/gallery.htm  I have no doubt many of Trace's knives end up as safe queens, but quite a few are put to use.


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## Carol

frank raud said:


> Where do you see it working, and more importantly, where do you see it not working? If it is a niche application(I will agree that, it is a self defense knife, not much good for camping or spreading butter), what are you seeing as it's limits?



Personally I wouldn't make it my EDC simply because it is a self-defense knife, and I have more need for a utilitarian folder.  I'm more likely to use my blade in the lab, than in a fight.

But as far as a self-defense knife is concerned, getting caught in the clinch is a bad situation, whether one is armed or unarmed.  I like how the knife was optimized for a particular scenario, rather than being a solution looking for a problem to solve.


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## K831

frank raud said:


> Where do you see it working, and more importantly, where do you see it not working? If it is a niche application(I will agree that, it is a self defense knife, not much good for camping or spreading butter), what are you seeing as it's limits?




  First, I hope you didnt take my comment as a downer on the knife. I am quite interested in it (hence my posting a link).

  I see it working quite well as described, but yes I do see limitations.

I said "purpose built" in that it is designed to be used at a contact manipulation /grappling range  specifically against someone who has put you in a clinch, headlock or taken your to the ground to tie you up etc 

  So, limitations. These are going to be based around my personal likes and the edged weapons training I have done to date, so I understand that much of this is subjective. 

Simply put, I think the knife would very much drive technique i.e. less flexibility. (Limitations) 

  The knife seems to be designed around the Pikal grip, edge in.. I have not trained RGEI. I would be more comfortable with a Karambit at this point, and train mostly long held or short held edge out - thus the knife presents limitations for me. 

  Reverse grip edge out lessens range but offers good defense options  I train it in case I happen to pick up a knife that way or I may chose that grip for concealment reasons. Reverse grip edge in would lessen range even further and seems like a poor choice, other than perhaps in a grappling situation as described in this knifes article. 

I prefer long held. But I haven't worked RGEI, so I am certainly open to learning, but I have concerns with knives that appear limited (practically) to a specific grip or usage.

  One of the knives I currently carry for SD is double edged, recurve blade, so multiple types of techniques apply 

  Additionally, I often place my thumb on the spine, as I train/carry mostly with knives that have a guard / forward thumb ramp. I like knives in that configuration.

  Size; I have big hands, so I wonder how ergonomic the handle would be for me. There are also limitations with a cutting edge of 2.5 inches. 

   One of the big pro's I saw is the carry position allowing for a fast, unobstructed draw. I agree completely with shiv works explanation of centerline carry location/less joint articulation. Those are some of the reasons I carry my hand gun A IWB. 

  In the end, the knife is purpose built to a degree that it drives technique  specifically in a direction I have not trained and am not wedded to  thus it has limitations for me, personally.  I would like to check out the accompanying DVDs to see what RGEI is all about. It is a grip I have not worked in my Kenpo or Kali classes.


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## frank raud

Great review, and a fair description of what you like and dislike about the blade. Please note that the clinch pick is not limited to RGEI, when carried as shown in the attached pSP, RGEI would be when you pulled the blade with your off hand. FGEU is how you would have the knife if you pull the blade with your right hand. 

Although FGEU may seem odd at first, it is a simple and effective way to utilise a knife. Not common in Bowie knife work, the "mountain man" grip takes advantage of natural body mechanics to slice and rip.

There are other blades out there that can substitute for the clinch pick, however I have not found one that feels as solid in my hand as a clinch pick.


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## lklawson

arnisador said:


> Or for grapplers who figure they'll always go for the clinch...


Going in to a clinch is a natural human reaction.  Most people do it without even thinking.  It particularly happens when a person is not comfortable at striking range or feels outclassed or especially in danger at striking range.  But even then going in to the grapple is second nature (first, really).

Everyone clinches.  In fact, most people have to be taught *NOT *to clinch and when it's inappropriate to do so.

When the other guy has a knife or might have a knife is one of those "inappropriate" times.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

frank raud said:


> Where do you see it working, and more importantly, where do you see it not working? If it is a niche application(I will agree that, it is a self defense knife, not much good for camping or spreading butter), what are you seeing as it's limits?


It seems to be clearly intended for close-in "grappling" type encounters for standard "blade up" deployment (as opposed to "icepick" style) and for *PULLING/HOOKING* cuts ("edge in").

Nothing new there.  I've seen these applications represented in several traditions.  The most obvious analog would be the karambit but there are others in eastern and western traditions.

Any knife with a short blade, reasonable edge, and a handle that's not too long would be fine for this application.  The classic K-Bar would probably be the longest blade that you could effectively use in this manner and it's the size that I've trained these applications with.

The drawbacks of this application are the assumptions that are required.  The biggest one is that the person grappling you isn't also armed with a knife.  If he is that will change your response.  You may still draw the blade and do a hooking pull cut under his armpit but you've got to neutralize or smother the attacking blade *FIRST*.  And that's darned hard to do at the clinch.  It also assumes that Deadly Force is justified and I'm just not sure you could sell that to a Jury unless the other guy had a weapon as well.  In the article referenced the "attacker" is just slaps on a stupid headlock.  No way you'd convince a Jury Deadly Force was justified by what is illustrated in the photos. Of course if there's a significant Disparity of Force due to size differences (400 lb. Linebacker), number of attackers, or some other consideration that could be mitigating.  But still, it's something to consider.  Most folks don't really grok how dangerous knives are, particularly when grappling with them.  It's really *REALLY *bad.

In short, I like the concept but I'm not sure you really need a custom purposed knife for the job.  On the other hand, if you want one for the job and like this product and producer, then knock yourself out.  Seems like a fine tool for the job.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

frank raud said:


> Although FGEU may seem odd at first, it is a simple and effective way to utilise a knife. Not common in Bowie knife work, the "mountain man" grip takes advantage of natural body mechanics to slice and rip.


Forward Grip, Edge up/in was, if not common, fairly well known and even popular with some Bowie Knife users.  Apparently it was particularly popular in the South during the Civil War period  where we see some example appearing of Bowie Knives with the knuckle bow oriented to the spine of the blade instead of the edge.  This would be the FGEU and was apparently intended to facilitate a thrust to the body/center-line with a rip up and out.

Not sure how much actual *USE *this got in real fighting but it does show that the concept was fairly well known.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## frank raud

lklawson said:


> Forward Grip, Edge up/in was, if not common, fairly well known and even popular with some Bowie Knife users. Apparently it was particularly popular in the South during the Civil War period where we see some example appearing of Bowie Knives with the knuckle bow oriented to the spine of the blade instead of the edge. This would be the FGEU and was apparently intended to facilitate a thrust to the body/center-line with a rip up and out.
> 
> Not sure how much actual *USE *this got in real fighting but it does show that the concept was fairly well known.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Kirk,

Typo on my part. That should read "not uncommon in Bowie..."


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## lklawson

frank raud said:


> Kirk,
> 
> Typo on my part. That should read "not uncommon in Bowie..."


Oh.

Sorry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## arnisador

lklawson said:


> Going in to a clinch is a natural human reaction.  Most people do it without even thinking.[...]
> Everyone clinches.  In fact, most people have to be taught *NOT *to clinch and when it's inappropriate to do so.



That's why for me this knife is a bit limited--I would hope to try to gain distance if I had the knife, not go into the clinch, and I could play the nickel-and-dime game. If I am carrying a knife I'd rather it be one of more general applicability.


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## Skpotamus

arnisador said:


> That's why for me this knife is a bit limited--I would hope to try to gain distance if I had the knife, not go into the clinch, and I could play the nickel-and-dime game. If I am carrying a knife I'd rather it be one of more general applicability.



From reading southnarcs posts on some forums, the knife seems to be designed as a distance creator/ neutralizer for when you find yourself already in clinch range.  IE, the bad guy getting in on you before you realize it, or you are conversing with someone who makes a move to a red zone (reaching for a concealed weapon), you close and engage to foul his draw, then go for your clinch pick.  Not so much a dueling aspect with you having knives drawn at a distance.  I personally like the concept as it works great in force on force training, but don't like the knife all that much.  It's a great knife, don't get me wrong, but you can buy knives made with the exact same steel for literally 1/5 the price.   

I like my waved spyderco endura and delica's for RGEI work.  A friend of mine really like the cold steel Roach Belly for the same use.  

BTW, check out Ray Floro's material for long range RGEI work.  Works great.


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