# The Meaning of Ilyeo Poomsae



## puunui (Jan 21, 2011)

The 1975 Taekwondo poomsae textbook describes Ilyeo as follows:
"In Buddhism  the state of spiritual cultivation is said to be 'Ilyo'
(Oneness), in which  the body and the mind, I (the subject)
and you  (the object), the spirit and  the substance are unified into
oneness. It means that one derives the state  of pure mind from
profound faith, namely the state in which one has discarded  all
worldly desires. The ultimate ideal of Taekwondo is in this state  of
'Ilyo'. In this state of mentality or 'nirvana' one overcomes ego.  The
final goal of Taekwondo pursues is inded a discipline in which  we
concentrate attention on every movement, shaking off all  worldly
thoughts and obsession."

The new Kukkiwon Textbook describes  Ilyeo as follows: "Ilyeo"
means the though of a great Buddhist priest of  Silla Dynasty, Saint
Won Hyo, which is characterized by the philosophy of  oneness of
mind (spirit) and body (material). It teaches that a point, a line  or
a circle ends up after all in one. Therefore, the poomsae  Ilyeo
represents the harmonization of spirit and body, which is the  essence
of martial art, after a long training of various types of  techniques
and spiritual cultivation for completion of Taekwondo  practice."

The Oneness spoken of at the time of the creation of the  poomsae
Ilyo meant the unification of the different Kwan, which was  the
foremost goal of the Taekwondo pioneers. In order to unify, each
Kwan  had to give up its worldly desire of individual Kwan expansion
in favor of  the goal of a single Taekwondo system, each individual
piece moving together  toward a single goal. It is what the pioneers
sacrificed for and made a  reality, by putting aside individual
differences and working  together.

The original name of Ilyeo poomsae was Shilla poomsae, Shilla  being
the one which unified the Korean pennisula into a single country.  Up
until most recently, every leader of Korea for the last one
thousand  years came from Shilla, which today is called Kyong
Sang Do. In this way, the  pioneers hoped to do the same thing,
unifying Taekwondo in the same fashion that the  Three Kingdoms were
unified under Shilla.

An alternate explanation of  the Buddhist overlay is found in the
philosophy of the Jidokwan, which is the  third major Kwan that led
the unification efforts. The Jidokwan symbol is  comprised of the
familiar figure eight outline, called the Otugi. This  represents the
concept of "Seven Times down, Eight Times up". The outline of  the
Jidokwan symbol (which is also on the Kodokan Judo symbol,
since the  Jidokwan got its start at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan, a
Judo school) is the  eight fold leaf pattern which represents the
Buddhist eight fold  path.

It is said that Jidokwan's founder, GM CHUN Sang Sup, learned both 
Judo and Shotokan Karate. This is reflected in the Jidokwan symbol
which is a merging of the Kodokan Judo symbol and also the Shotokan
red circle logo. 

This Jidokwan figure eight otugi symbol is carried on in the  Kukkiwon
logo. If you look closely, you can see that the Kukkiwon logo is  made
up of a series of "Jidokwan snowmen" arranged in a circle.  The
Kukkiwon is considered the main body which completed the  unification
of Taekwondo.

The Jidokwan's GM LEE Chong Woo is also considered  to be a very
central figure in the unification efforts, and played a heavy  role in
many of the decisions which led to the creation of a  unified
Taekwondo. This last form, can be considered a tribute to  his
efforts, as well as the efforts of his Kwan in creating what we  have
today.

And so we can see that the Taekwondo pioneers who created  the
Kukkiwon poomsae were martial artists committed to high  training
standards and their work with the yudanja poomse is a roadmap  for
those who are interested in the journey, the way, the Do in  the
martial arts. The poomsae lay out in a very specific manner  the
journey which they themselves followed. It is a treasure map of  the
Way.


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## dancingalone (Feb 4, 2011)

Ilyeo seems to refer specifically only to the unification of the singular person, correct?  It does not refer to something more political or involving multiple factions like the term, Tong Il, does.


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## puunui (Feb 4, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Ilyeo seems to refer specifically only to the unification of the singular person, correct?  It does not refer to something more political or involving multiple factions like the term, Tong Il, does.




The original name of this poomsae was Shilla, which was the Kingdom of the three that unified Korea. The idea behind the highest poomsae was that unification of Taekwondo was the highest goal at the time, and really remains the goal. Try reading the english description again with that idea.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

Tae Kwon Do is still a martial art? It does still teach self defence and fighting or is it an entirely philosophical movement? it's very pretty all the spiritual stuff but can you still throw a punch or defend yourself when necessary while musing on the oneness of the universe?


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## StudentCarl (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Tae Kwon Do is still a martial art? It does still teach self defence and fighting or is it an entirely philosophical movement? it's very pretty all the spiritual stuff but can you still throw a punch or defend yourself when necessary while musing on the oneness of the universe?


 
Musing is a form of meditation to occupy the conscious mind--so you are in a state of no-mind when it's time for self-defense. Pretty? That's just a by-product.

You didn't know?


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Musing is a form of meditation to occupy the conscious mind--so we in a state of no-mind when it's time for self-defense. Pretty? That's just a by-product.
> 
> You didn't know?


 
'Pretty' was sarcastic. Another 'history' lesson on the Korean arts doesn't achieve 'no mind' as one has to release the ego for this to happen.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> 'Pretty' was sarcastic. Another 'history' lesson on the Korean arts doesn't achieve 'no mind' as one has to release the ego for this to happen.


 
I was responding tongue-in-cheek to your comment.
Many things in life can focus only on simple, brutal efficiency. To find meaning in the journey or to appreciate depth and art is okay to add to the recipe for those who choose it.


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## puunui (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Tae Kwon Do is still a martial art? It does still teach self defence and fighting or is it an entirely philosophical movement? it's very pretty all the spiritual stuff but can you still throw a punch or defend yourself when necessary while musing on the oneness of the universe?



Do you even know where the term "Martial Art" comes from and what it actually means?


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> Do you even know where the term "Martial Art" comes from and what it actually means?


 
Naw, I'm as thick as two short planks me.


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## puunui (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Naw, I'm as thick as two short planks me.



Yeah, I figured you were just trolling....


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yeah, I figured you were just trolling....


 
Oh dear me no. Not trolling, just tired of pomposity and 'history' lectures.


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## puunui (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear me no. Not trolling, just tired of pomposity and 'history' lectures.



If you have a personal issue with me or what I write, then either put me on ignore or take it up with me. You don't have to insult Taekwondo to make your point. 

>Tae Kwon Do is still a martial art? It does still teach self defence and  
>fighting or is it an entirely philosophical movement? it's very pretty  all 
>the spiritual stuff but can you still throw a punch or defend  yourself 
>when necessary while musing on the oneness of the universe?


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> If you have a personal issue with me or what I write, then either put me on ignore or take it up with me. You don't have to insult Taekwondo to make your point.
> 
> >Tae Kwon Do is still a martial art? It does still teach self defence and
> >fighting or is it an entirely philosophical movement? it's very pretty all
> ...


 


Actually it wasn't TKD I was insulting rather I was defending it as the extremely effective martial art it is. 

As of late the 'musings' and lectures on it's history have taken the place of the effectiveness of it's techniques and of it's usefulness in self defence. There is less discussion on techniques and more on the shall we say for politeness' sake the personal views on other martial artists. The value has been placed less and less on training and more on the esoteric joys of ersatz academia.

There is a place of course for Buddhism and spirituality in martial arts but this is a personal and individual choice, stating that one persons view of anything is correct is a folly. 

If you have an open mind towards discussion and don't insist on your views being always correct and can disagree with amicable posts without them turning personal then that is always welcome. Your views are your views that's all and we all have views.

However it would be nice to have some posts on the effectiveness of TKD rather than it's politics and endless history lessons. 'Book' learning and the 'GM told me' posts are fine for when one wants to sleep but the 'action' posts are better to past on the benefits of TKD.


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## dancingalone (Feb 5, 2011)

May I suggest starting a topic you are interested in then,  and leave this topic for others who might be interested in the subject?  I recall an admonition to stay on topic from you recently.  Surely the thought applies here too?


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

Sorry but this is on topic, I'm asking whether TKD is merely now a spiritual entity and no longer a fighting art. Puunui of course assumes I'm trolling.


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## dancingalone (Feb 5, 2011)

No, it is not.  If you're going to play moderator, be consistent.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> No, it is not. If you're going to play moderator, be consistent.


 
I'm not a mod nor do I play at one, a mentor yes.

 If I post up saying my post is in topic it is, because I'd like an answer instead of endless quotes of what GM said to puunui. 
When did Buddhism become so important in TKD and why is it necessary for TKDists to practice Buddhism?


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## dancingalone (Feb 5, 2011)

Then perhaps you could word your question in a different fashion if you're genuinely interested in an answer from puunui.  You're coming off as rather combative to me and more dumping on the topic than anything else.

I have no idea what a mentor does around here, but if it means helping to nudge things towards following the rules, I do feel your behavior in this thread is inconsistent with the goal of staying on topic.  Not that I generally care for staying on topic, but then again I don't try to manage others in that way myself.

Consistency.  That's what I ask for whether you are a moderator or not.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Sorry but this is on topic, I'm asking whether TKD is merely now a spiritual entity and no longer a fighting art. Puunui of course assumes I'm trolling.


 
I read your first post as a troll too; hence my facetious reply. You can pick what threads you read. I ignore the pissin' contests too and prefer the technical/practical topics, but sometimes there are gems in the mud that result in interesting new topics. I did learn some things that matter to me from the posts on each of the black belt forms.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not a mod nor do I play at one, a mentor yes.
> 
> If I post up saying my post is in topic it is, because I'd like an answer instead of endless quotes of what GM said to puunui.
> When did Buddhism become so important in TKD and why is it necessary for TKDists to practice Buddhism?


 
Now we're getting somewhere. I couldn't find anything in the OP what a GM said to Puunui or the importance of Buddhism. It sounds like you're annoyed with Puunui's posts or his style elsewhere in the forum and are ranting about it here. Please clarify.


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## puunui (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Actually it wasn't TKD I was insulting rather I was defending it as the extremely effective martial art it is.



If you say so. I disagree.




Tez3 said:


> As of late the 'musings' and lectures on it's history have taken the place of the effectiveness of it's techniques and of it's usefulness in self defence. There is less discussion on techniques and more on the shall we say for politeness' sake the personal views on other martial artists. The value has been placed less and less on training and more on the esoteric joys of ersatz academia.



I've been around discussion forums long enough to understand that topics ebb and flow according to the interests of the posters. From my perspective, topics regarding the effectiveness of a particular martial art is one that an actual instructor can handle directly with the student. Discussion forums such as this and its usefulness are more for topics that cannot or should not be normally handled during class time. History, politics, etc., are some but not all of those kinds of topics. If you want to understand how effective a front kick is, go to class and have your instructor explain it to you. 




Tez3 said:


> There is a place of course for Buddhism and spirituality in martial arts but this is a personal and individual choice, stating that one persons view of anything is correct is a folly.



I never stated Buddhism or any other religion was "correct". Where are you getting this from? 




Tez3 said:


> If you have an open mind towards discussion and don't insist on your views being always correct and can disagree with amicable posts without them turning personal then that is always welcome. Your views are your views that's all and we all have views.



I would say there is a difference between opinion and fact. Opinions are opinions; there is no single correct answer. "strawberry is the best flavor for ice cream" is an opinion. However, facts are different. WWII started on September 1, 1939 in Europe when Germany invaded Poland is a fact. If an American said no, it started when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, that is not subject to the same parameters that the ice cream opinion would be. 




Tez3 said:


> However it would be nice to have some posts on the effectiveness of TKD rather than it's politics and endless history lessons. 'Book' learning and the 'GM told me' posts are fine for when one wants to sleep but the 'action' posts are better to past on the benefits of TKD.



That's your opinion. Please take your own advice and do not impose your views on the rest of us by insisting that you are correct about what is or isn't appropriate topics of discussion. If you need to be reassured as to the effectiveness of any particular technique or style, then by all means start a new topic. But please understand that some of us do not need that same sort of reassurance about whether what we do works or not, and therefore we do not feel the same sort of need that you do to discuss it. Believe it or not, some of us value different things than you do.


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## puunui (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> If I post up saying my post is in topic it is, because I'd like an answer instead of endless quotes of what GM said to puunui.



An answer to what, how effective Taekwondo is as a martial art in a self defense situation? Hasn't that topic already been beaten to death already numerous times on MT? Again, if you need reassurance about whether a martial art is effective for self defense, then probably the best person for that is your instructor. He can address your concerns regarding effectiveness much better than a message board can. 

As for endless quotes from the pioneers, may I offer that perhaps you are not yet interested in such things because you are still in the beginning stages of the journey wherein you are still wrestling with the idea of whether or not the martial arts are effective for self defense. Here is a wikipedia article explaining Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Once people get past the security issues (second level from the bottom), then they can address the more philosophical or self actualizing issues that some are presently not so interested in. It's hard to do that if someone is constantly worried about the effectiveness of their self defense skill set.




Tez3 said:


> When did Buddhism become so important in TKD



If you read the first post carefully, you would have seen this quote from the 1975 Taekwondo poomsae textbook:  

The 1975 Taekwondo poomse textbook describes Ilyeo as follows:
"In Buddhism  the state of spirtual cultivation is said to be 'Ilyo'
(Oneness), in which  the body and the mind, I (the subject)
and you  (the object), the spirit and  the substance are unified into
oneness. It means that one derives the state  of pure mind from
profound faith, namely the state in which one has discarded  all
worldly desires. The ultimate ideal of Taekwondo is in this state  of
'Ilyo'. In this state of mentality or 'nirvana' one overcomes ego.  The
final goal of Taekwondo pursues is inded a discipline in which  we
concentrate attention on every movement, shaking off all  worldly
thoughts and obsession."

I gave an alternative explanation for this in the first post: 

An alternate explanation of the Buddhist overlay is found in the
philosophy  of the Jidokwan, which is the third major Kwan that led
the unification  efforts. The Jidokwan symbol is comprised of the
familiar figure eight  outline, called the Otugi. This represents the
concept of "Seven Times down,  Eight Times up". The outline of the
Jidokwan symbol (which is also on the  Kodokan Judo symbol,
since the Jidokwan got its start at the Chosun Yun Moo  Kwan, a
Judo school) is the eight fold leaf pattern which represents  the
Buddhist eight fold path.

Somehow you translated this to mean Buddhism is important in Taekwondo, an art which you don't even study by the way. 





Tez3 said:


> and why is it necessary for TKDists to practice Buddhism?



I don't think it is necessary for Taekwondoin to practice Buddhism and I don't believe I have ever said that.


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## puunui (Feb 5, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Now we're getting somewhere. I couldn't find anything in the OP what a GM said to Puunui or the importance of Buddhism. It sounds like you're annoyed with Puunui's posts or his style elsewhere in the forum and are ranting about it here. Please clarify.




It does sound like a personal problem doesn't it. The funny thing is that people here ask me all the time about what the pioneers said about this or that. Check out the Palgwae bunkai topic where she basically scolds dancingalone and I for talking about GM LEE Won Kuk's comments regarding Otsuka Sensei. If I don't answer someone gets mad, and if I do, then someone else overexaggarates and says that is the only thing that I write about, what the pioneers said to me. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2011)

Reading posts is often done with the readers prejudices to the front, trolling is in the eye of the reader I'm afraid. 
Personal problem no, did I nudge you way from gossiping yes, start another post if you want pass on gossip on other styles founders and let their students answer don't sneak it into a TKD thread.
Combatative? No again that's in the eye of the reader. Merely asking questions is often considered combatative I'm afraid.


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