# Hapkido Curriculum



## terrylamar

I have lost contact with my Hapkido instructor and I never knew his intructor.

I have my own school now, primarily, Taekwondo, especially for the kids.

I do have several hard corps students who want to seriously study Hapkido.  Being a 1st Dan and one without any affiliation, I can take them only so far.  I wish to continue my studies.

I am thinking about joining the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF.)  I have attended a seminar by GrandMaster Pellegrini in the past.  Both the style and philosoply appeal to me.

Other attributes that appeal to me are the comprhensive series of DVD's and seminars that are availible.

I have read what has been posted on these forums about the ICHF and GrandMaster Pellegrini and the opinions seem to be favorable.  I remember years ago when Combat Hapkido came on the seen it had a lot of criticism.

It seems ideal in my situation where I am so isolated with no other Martial Arts schools within an hours drive.

Any thoughts?


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## Brad Dunne

This is nothing more than my personal opinion, based upon your interest in continuining your Hapkido Training. I have reviewed the ICHF Master level DVD's and in all honesty, NOT IMPRESSED!....

The mindset that is offered, I agree with, but the technique offerings are somewhat questionable (mpo). In order to use the term "Hapkido", I believe that Mr. P had to offer something different, than what is already being taught, just change for change sake. Otherwise there would be no real need or justification for the assignment of a "new kwan". I would suggest that your initial review of past history here at MT, regarding MR. P and the ICHF did not go far enough back. Perhaps another more indepth search may offer a broader scope of information / opinions on the subject. 
While I don't consider myself to be a died in the wool traditionalist, I do have reservations when dealing with, what I consider, questionable training material. 

I realize that there are folks that have great zeal for what the ICHF offers and some even have some formalized Hapkido training, prior to joining the ICHF. I confess that I have to scratch my head and ask why, but it seems to sever their purpose and in reality, that's all that matters I guess.


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## Drac

terrylamar said:


> I am thinking about joining the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF.) I have attended a seminar by GrandMaster Pellegrini in the past. Both the style and philosoply appeal to me.
> 
> Other attributes that appeal to me are the comprhensive series of DVD's and seminars that are availible.
> 
> I have read what has been posted on these forums about the ICHF and GrandMaster Pellegrini and the opinions seem to be favorable. I remember years ago when Combat Hapkido came on the seen it had a lot of criticism.
> 
> It seems ideal in my situation where I am so isolated with no other Martial Arts schools within an hours drive.
> 
> Any thoughts?


 
Combat Hapkido and the ICHF ALWAYS be a subject of controversy and discussion, either you like it or you don't..The same with Grandmaster Pellegrini..I came from a traditional backround ( Shorin-Ryu) and loved what I saw at one seminar that I joined the ICHF and began to study with a passion...


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## Brian R. VanCise

Your best bet is to try what is available and then choose which Hapkido group you wish to belong to.  I have had the opportunity to train with several Hapkido people in the past and they all had something distinctly different to offer.  Personally I feel that Combat Hapkido has quite a bit going for it!


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## terrylamar

Will the ICHF still accept a Black Belt from another recognized organization to convert to a Dan in ICHF.

I remember this was so many years ago, but cannot find any information on their website.


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## Drac

terrylamar said:


> Will the ICHF still accept a Black Belt from another recognized organization to convert to a Dan in ICHF.
> 
> I remember this was so many years ago, but cannot find any information on their website.


 
They did it not too long ago..That question must be directed to Grandmaster Pellegrini at http://www.dsihq.com


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## hapkenkido

I started in trad hapkido but converted to ICHF after my GM passed. Ihave loved it and renewing my membership to life time. The reason i chose ICHF over other hapkido orgs was the very real street self-d. 
 The one thing i did though was give the techs nicknames instead of the numbers. If you like i can email you an excel spread sheet.


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## jim777

I've been to a few ICHF seminars given by Master Brian McCann in the past, and would definitely study it if were a little closer and I had the time. Some day though!

But I think Brian's advice is the best here; try all the Hapkido that is nearby to you and pick the one you like best.


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## Imua Kuntao

I was a 3rd Dan under Ki Whan Choi here in San Antonio, he died in the late 80's, his brother still teaches in the Houston area, I also have a friend who does a style of Hapkido called Hoi Jeon Mool Soo Hapkido, they're cool. I dont have thier website, but should be easy to find on the net. The Master studied with Young Sul Choi and Ji Han Jae.


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## terrylamar

My problem is that there are no Hapkido Schools of any kind with 150 miles.  San Antonio, TX is the closest city with any available.  

I have decided to go with the International Combat Hapkido Federation.  I can get plenty of help with their DVD's and Seminars.

I am not clear on a couple of things, such as the Instructor Certificate and any Time in Grade requirements.  I am in contact with them and will get that resolved.

My 1st Dan will transfer over the ICHF.  Now I need to learn the curriculim up to Black Belt, then start in on my 2nd Dan.

I thank everyone for there help and suggestions.


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## terrylamar

hapkenkido said:


> The one thing i did though was give the techs nicknames instead of the numbers. If you like i can email you an excel spread sheet.


 
Sure, if you don't mind.  I, usually, don't have problems remembering techniques by the numbers, but if it helps, I'm all for it.


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## terrylamar

I got to talk to Trina Pellegrini the other day.  It started out with emails, then we talked.  She put her husband on the phone and we discussed all my concerns.

He is willing to help, far more than I ever would have expected.

So, I am going with the ICHF.  Perhaps, I can get some more adults in the school.  I have enrolled over 30 rug rats in a little less than 30 days since I took over.

Luckily, I wear my hair Marine Corps short or I would have pulled it all out by now.


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## terrylamar

I did join the ICHF as a Charter School.  I received my Package on Friday.  The challenge is to now enroll adults into the program.  I know a few are interested.


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## crushing

terrylamar said:


> I did join the ICHF as a Charter School. I received my Package on Friday. The challenge is to now enroll adults into the program. I know a few are interested.


 
I wish you the best in this.  I'm glad I happened into Combat Hapkido.  I didn't go searching for it, but I found it and with it came some new people that have been great to train with and to know.


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## Daniel Sullivan

terrylamar said:


> I did join the ICHF as a Charter School. I received my Package on Friday. The challenge is to now enroll adults into the program. I know a few are interested.


I know that it has only been a little over two weeks, but what do you think of the package?  Have you been able to apply any of it in your classes?  And if so, how did it go?

Hope all went well.

Daniel


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## terrylamar

Celtic Tiger said:


> I know that it has only been a little over two weeks, but what do you think of the package? Have you been able to apply any of it in your classes? And if so, how did it go?
> 
> Hope all went well.
> 
> Daniel


 
Everything is good.  I have reviewed all the DVD's.  We started the curriculum immediately and students are enjoying the classes.  Another black belt and I are learning the ICHF curriculum faster and we are testing it out on each other.

The DVD's are well made and explain the techniques very well.  I do like that seminars are available and that the style can be supplemented by other techniques.


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## Kumbajah

No one finds this disturbing. Not to discount your first dan, but really - you can in good conscious "teach" stuff to your students that you "learned" from a video tape? You don't feel any moral responsibility of actual mastery or at least competency before passing it along. Someone might actually have to use what you have shown them. ( probably not, but there is that chance ) "Ah, sorry you're in the Hospital but that's how they did it on the tape or at least that's how I saw it." 

I know it took me time, effort and most importantly - tweaking by instructor to "get" a technique. Especially if I thought I "had it" at first blush  My understanding of the basics has changed over time and I see how cursory my original grasp was. Sorry, this method just seems reckless to me.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I guess that it depends what level you're at when you're viewing the tape.  If one is already an experienced practitioner, watching the DVD may be enough, particularly if the techniques are well laid out and explained in depth on the DVD.

I have had instructors who's way of teaching was such that, quite frankly, a good DVD would have been an improvement.  I'm not a big fan of, "You do like I do," going through forms and techniques without much, if any, interaction with the students.  I find that less personal than a good DVD; a good instructional DVD is done with the knowledge that the student cannot interract with the presenter.  Techniques are explained, close upped, and shown at different angles.  To be fair, my experience with instructional DVD's has been in the realm of guitar DVD's, but the good ones are very, very helpful.  Not a substitute for a teacher, but a very good supplement, and probably a good substitute for a bad teacher.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

I'll agree that where you are in your study effects what you'll see on a tape. 

Guitar is a different beast imo ( I play as well ) the guitar is an inanimate object. ( if left alone  ) interacting with another human is far more complex. The human is actively trying to thwart your efforts - the guitar just feels like that sometimes


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## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> No one finds this disturbing. Not to discount your first dan, but really - you can in good conscious "teach" stuff to your students that you "learned" from a video tape? You don't feel any moral responsibility of actual mastery or at least competency before passing it along. Someone might actually have to use what you have shown them. ( probably not, but there is that chance ) "Ah, sorry you're in the Hospital but that's how they did it on the tape or at least that's how I saw it."
> 
> I know it took me time, effort and most importantly - tweaking by instructor to "get" a technique. Especially if I thought I "had it" at first blush  My understanding of the basics has changed over time and I see how cursory my original grasp was. Sorry, this method just seems reckless to me.


 
No, I do not have a problem with it.  I have already learned this material previously.  Now all I have to do is learn slight variations and in the order the ICHF presents it.

The techniques either work or they don't.  It really doesn't matter how you learned them.  

I watch the DVD multiple times, I practice with another black belt until I have it down.  I am confident they work and I am doing them exactly as instructed.  I will supplement my training with seminars and practice with other black belts in the system.


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## Kumbajah

I think there is a huge difference on how you learn a technique. 

It is my opinion that the outer form of the technique can be approached by viewing a video but the subtleties are missed. Learning step here, twist this way etc is simply the first step but is hardly owning the technique. Especially with a compliant partner. There is also a level of what works based on the level of training your partner has as well. There is a difference to making it work against someone that never has had their wrist twisted and someone that has had it twisted thousands of times. 

When learning in a class environment you get to practice on a variety of body types, temperaments and skill level. Again the level of "what works" will be different. There are tweaks that are immediately apparent to a experienced teacher that two black belts will never catch. You may get to them by trial and error but you are teaching the error until you stumble across the fix. A disservice to your students imo. 

A video tape is a very small moment in time with limited parameters. Basically it is saying this is how to execute this particular technique against some one with this body type against this particular attack,  at this distance, at this particular speed and at this particular intensity. Change anyone of those things and the execution changes. Being able to make this adjustments come from experience, yours and hopefully the person instructing you. Harder and faster is not an answer to make something work. 

There is also a safety factor. Knowing when you or someone else is in danger in the execution of a technique.  People get hurt in hapkido - that is it's intention by design. Knowing how to modify the technique for safe practice is a skill and knowing the difference between a modified skill and another type is a skill as well. Hapkido is brutal but achieves it by subtleties. 

I still think this method belittles the art and does a disservice to students. I wouldn't feel like I was properly and honestly preparing my students to face the challenges that they may face. You are obviously of a different opinion - I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.


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## terrylamar

Many of the same arguments you use were used years ago with distance learning for various trade schools.  In most cases they were valid.

Improvements were made, especially with advent of the internet.  Today many major univerisity systems offer a distant learning option.  Their degrees carry the same weight as attending campus courses.  Certification is indistiguisable from those that attended the campus program.

I do believe some of your arguments are valid.  That is why training with other practitioneers is so important, just as open communication and attending seminars.

During these events you get to test your application of the individual techniques and tweak them.

What I do like about Combat Hapkido is that there is a core curriculum, but you are not limited to teaching just that.  You can bring in any of your previous experiences as well as explore other avenues.

In my case I have studied Hapkido for over nine years.  I know I still have a long way to go.  Unfortuneatly, I am in a rather remote area of Texas and I have no hapkido schools with 150 miles.  Combat Hapkido and the ICHF seem ideal for me and my school.  We are all happy with the affiliation and we are all sleeping very well at night.


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## Kumbajah

I can appreciate the fact that you don't have a Hapkido school in close proximity and you want to offer your students something more. 

I still see a disconnect between learning an intellectual subject and a physical one. So I don't see your university / trade distance learning as a valid corrilation. Understanding the physics that make a technique work and being able to pull it off as separate manifestations. Sometimes it takes feeling a master doing the technique to you to understand how it works. 

I can also appreciate that you don't have a valid venue (imo) to pursue and you are doing the best that you can. I suppose the problem that I have is not allowing you students to see the limit of the scope that you have to offer. I realize that it is an awkward position to put yourself as a school owner but I think that you owe it to them to be honest about the scope and depth of the knowledge of the material that you are transferring. You are putting yourself out as an authority and they put their trust in you. To give them a inflated sense of authority in your ability and them an inflated sense of their ability is dishonest and potentially deadly.


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## terrylamar

My arguement still is that if it works, it works.  It doesn't matter if I get it out of cracker jack box, invent it on the spot or watch a DVD.  While I understand your concerns, my execution of any techniques is and will continue to be validated by someone far more experienced than I.


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## Kumbajah

I'm still leery of your "if it works" argument. Works how? A partner stands there while you do something to him. That is a demo. It is part of the learning process but not the end of it. Imitating the limited scope of a video tape is not learning Hapkido, it is  visceral process. One that can't be conveyed through a video. What you think you see and what is actually going on are not necessarily the same. 

When learning THKD I'm sure you felt the difference between your instructors technique and your fellow students. 

Again you are being evaluated and validated in sporadic jumps. As an instructor you know that it is easier to teach a new skill then to try make someone unlearn a incorrect one. So there is the chance ( a good one imo but not guaranteed ) that you are instilling a bad habit that you are going to have to correct. In the meanwhile they are walking around with a flawed skill set.  

Also, your students can watch the same video - why do you see your interpretation as more valid then theirs. Would you allow an assistant instructor to take home a video and then teach it in your school? If so, why are you in the loop - why not just sell the tapes to your students. I'm sure the adults are just as intellectually capable as you are. They would be learning from the same source as you. 

If not, how do you see your situation as different? How do you see your filtering and relaying the information as more valid than them simply learning from the tape? If it's good for the goose...


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## Daniel Sullivan

Realistically, if you have a good, solid understanding of body mechanics, there are only but so many ways to twist, lock, or grapple an opponent.  There are only but so many ways to _actually _strike an opponent.  Everything else is variation on existing themes.  And I would think that a practitioner with nine years of hapkido under his or her belt would have a fairly solid, if not very solid grasp of that.

My guess is, and Terry can correct me if I'm wrong, that there really isn't anything new or revolutionary about combat hapkido, but rather it is the specific combination of techniques contained in the curriculum coupled with training with an emphasis on practical SD.  

If one is already has a solid practical SD background, then once again, lessons learned from a DVD should not be difficult to apply.  I do still maintain that if distance is an issue, as it is in this case, one should find the closest school of the appropriate style, whatever it is, and arrange to check in every few months for minor course corrections and objective in person feedback.

Daniel


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## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> If not, how do you see your situation as different? How do you see your filtering and relaying the information as more valid than them simply learning from the tape? If it's good for the goose...


 
Well, I would say my thirty plus years in the Martial Arts and nine years in Hapkido does give me a slight advantage.

So, I'm still the Head Gander and they are all still goslings.


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## Kumbajah

In theory I agree with you Dan, but I have seen some craptacular hapkido. It speaks to my point that the devil is the details. It's hard to self correct. You may think you are doing something "just like the DVD" but without someone that knows, neither are you going to. I know that the couple of times I've been sidelined it has taken time and supervision to get me back up to par. 

Something we haven't addressed is the CHKD curriculum is different than THKD, drawing from other arts (BJJ, FMA.) So some of this material is going to be new. So things outside his experience are going to be his best guess if he's doing them correctly. Something that he may be able to achieve by muscle might not be the proper technique " But I can make it work this way" Yes, but what about your students, or what about in 10/20/30 years. 

There is really no substitute for proper technique which comes from proper instruction and sweat equity.


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## Kumbajah

terrylamar said:


> Well, I would say my thirty plus years in the Martial Arts and nine years in Hapkido does give me a slight advantage.
> 
> So, I'm still the Head Gander and they are all still goslings.


 

100 years in TKD doesn't = 1 day in Hapkido. I thought this was all precipitated by you having lost contact with your hapkido instructor and having limited recourse - so saying 9 years in HKD is a bit misleading. It's not active training under an instructor. (Maybe 4-5 to first dan) 

Again they are looking to you as an authority and you are leading with techniques that may be less than valid. 

I think we'll just have to disagree - I think you are deluding your students and perhaps yourself.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> In theory I agree with you Dan, but I have seen some craptacular hapkido. It speaks to my point that the devil is the details. It's hard to self correct. You may think you are doing something "just like the DVD" but without someone that knows, neither are you going to. I know that the couple of times I've been sidelined it has taken time and supervision to get me back up to par.
> 
> Something we haven't addressed is the CHKD curriculum is different than THKD, drawing from other arts (BJJ, FMA.) So some of this material is going to be new. So things outside his experience are going to be his best guess if he's doing them correctly. Something that he may be able to achieve by muscle might not be the proper technique " But I can make it work this way" Yes, but what about your students, or what about in 10/20/30 years.


I do agree.  Thus my caveat about finding a place to at least check in with.  Just for the record, I am not a big proponent of DVD based curriculum.  I do believe that agood DVD is better than a craptacular instructor, of which there are sadly many.

Techniques drawn from other arts would be best dealt with by finding a school that teaches the art and checking in with them as well.  

Once again, I don't fully endorse the DVD rout, but I do think that it has its place and can be useful to an instructor.

Beyond that, yes, in person instruction is much preferrable.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

For me a DVD is valuable only as a reference tool. To use it as the primary instruction and certification is ludicrous. Better to have nothing at all. 



> "A little Learning is a dang'rous Thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring."



Traveling to the nearest large city once a month would be better. We have one Master Mr. Kattouf that travels to our school from Pennsylvania - about 3 hours - to train under GM Kim. He also attends a BJJ school in our area. 

I have to respect that. It shows a lot of dedication on his part, to his training and to his students. He wants to give them the best that he can. Its someone you know is looking out for the best interests of his students.


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## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> For me a DVD is valuable only as a reference tool. To use it as the primary instruction and certification is ludicrous. Better to have nothing at all.


 
I don't agree with this statement in the least.  When you have a foundation, a DVD can add to your understanding.  It is a valuable tool.  Just like a hammer isn't the only tool in your tool box, it is one of many and serves it's intended purpose.  I agree there may be other tools that are better suited for a particular job.  



> Traveling to the nearest large city once a month would be better. We have one Master Mr. Kattouf that travels to our school from Pennsylvania - about 3 hours - to train under GM Kim. He also attends a BJJ school in our area.
> 
> I have to respect that. It shows a lot of dedication on his part, to his training and to his students. He wants to give them the best that he can. Its someone you know is looking out for the best interests of his students.


 
This is something I have stated that I would be doing, I am currently getting a list of schools in Texas from the ICHF for this very purpose.  This would be supplemented by seminars and practice in Hapkido (as well as other Martial Arts) from other organizations.

I don't see how we are far off from each other's views other than I do see value in DVD's.

Regardless, I wish you the very best in your training and I will continue to improve and add value to what I teach by all means available to me.


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## Kumbajah

I can state the difference very clearly - you are using DVDs as your primary instruction which you are supplementing with seminars. I don't think this is a valid method. I know from instructing people in hapkido ( and you may have had a similar experience in TKD) that you can correct someone's technique one day and they are doing it the old way the next. Learning Hapkido is not a easy process. A seminar once a quarter isn't very diligent instruction IMO. Hapkido is more then a couple of Hoshinsul tricks. You stated that you are going for your second dan - which is new material not simply variations of your original dan, not to mention the stuff that comes from outside the Hapkido system - BJJ and FMA. This is completely NEW material. Yet you feel justified teaching it because you watched a video tape and plan to attend seminars in the future and maybe hook up with another school some point down the line. REALLY!?! - REALLY!?! This is quality instruction and giving your students a fair deal? REALLY!?! 

If this was a person growth thing for you I would be much more understanding - if your execution was lacking the only one it would hurt is you. You are passing this off to students - for a price! I personally find it detestable. really. 

The example that I offered - Master Kattouf receives his primary instruction from GM Kim. Not only does he travel 3 hours ( each way ) for instruction in HKD and BJJ he started over as white belt in our system after being Master ranked in his old system. He also brings his black belts down for training. He also holds a master in education. GM Kim also travels up to Penn. It's not even close to the same thing. Not by a mile.


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## terrylamar

It seems for some reason you wish to prolong this discussion and even turn it into an arguement.  I do not wish to do so any longer.  I am going to try once more then I'll be silent on this thread.

Yes, I am learning the 2nd Dan requirements.  I am not teaching techniques at that level.  All my students have no experience, whatsoever, in Hapkido and are at the yellow belt level.  I am teaching them at the yellow belt level, what I would call very basic technique.  It will take them approximately three years to get to black belt.  In those three years I will continue to progress and still be ahead of their skill level.  Even if it is working with other black belts and attending seminars and yes the dreaded and inferior DVD.

I have the utmost confidence that I can teach at the yellow belt level.  During the years I have studied TKD all my instuctors have been 5th Dan and above in Hapkido.  Over the course of 20 years I have had a lot of Hapkido intruction, just not structured.

Thankfully, I do not have to worry about your evaluation or opinion.  I will continue to do what I am doing and you can go pick on someone else.  I am sorry I do not live up to your expectations.  Ni modo.


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## Kumbajah

It's not personal - It's the structure of distance learning I have a problem with. It is not good for the art and cheats the students. It gives the illusion of actually learning an art. 

Hopefully if someone comes across this I might dissuade them from going down the path that you have chosen. Maybe this organization and others like it will cease to exist.  It's just a revenue scheme. I place value on HKD other than monetary. This model does not. 

What you may call basic I call fundamentals and it is what everything else is based on. Crap in - Crap out. 

You can throw your hands in the air and " whudda ya gonna do" - 

I say stop it. There is enough craptastic HKD out there without adding to it. 

BTW It seems that TKD is fundamentally flawed in that the instructors don't think it's enough to teach it alone and seek to bolster it with Hapkido. I don't see HKD people seeking add on TKD. I yet to see a TKD studio that didn't mention HKD in the marketing material.


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## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> It's not personal - It's the structure of distance learning I have a problem with. It is not good for the art and cheats the students. It gives the illusion of actually learning an art.


 
It certainly does seem to be personal, if not against me, surely against an organization.  You admit you cannot learn from this method.  OK, not all of us are so limited.  I learn this way very well, thank you.



> Hopefully if someone comes across this I might dissuade them from going down the path that you have chosen. Maybe this organization and others like it will cease to exist. It's just a revenue scheme. I place value on HKD other than monetary. This model does not.


 
I do not see this happening.  While you try to dissuade them I am telling them how good it is.  While it isn't, maybe, as good as having a Grandmaster in your back pocket, it is an excellent method of learning.  It isn't a "revenue scheme," but a very revolutionary method of bringing Hapkido to those who wouldn't be exposed to it because of their circumstances.  I'm cururious to know how many hours you have spent with GM Pellegrini to know what his motives are.  Have you even met him? Attended one of his seminars?  



> What you may call basic I call fundamentals and it is what everything else is based on. Crap in - Crap out.


 
Much like your entire rant.  It is all "Crap out." 



> You can throw your hands in the air and " whudda ya gonna do" -


 
Actually, I am very happy with my choice.  My students are happy with me.  Your opinion doesn't count with us.



> I say stop it. There is enough craptastic HKD out there without adding to it.


 
I don't really care, my world doen't revolve arround you and what you think about the ICHF.  Anyway I find it strange you are attacking a particular person and style.  



> BTW It seems that TKD is fundamentally flawed in that the instructors don't think it's enough to teach it alone and seek to bolster it with Hapkido. I don't see HKD people seeking add on TKD. I yet to see a TKD studio that didn't mention HKD in the marketing material.


 
Sure, that is why all these Hapkido schools are adding ground grappling, weapons, kicks.......

I can give you GM Pellegrini's phone number and email if you want to take it up with him.  Myself, I'm tired of your assaults on Combat Hapkido.  Go play in someone elses sandbox, I need to get back to training.


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## Kumbajah

Methinks the lady doth protest too much. 

I think that people will see that your counter argument of - "well it works for me" as hollow. I don't think I'm going to convince GM P to give up his golden calf. But I do think I can show people that he's a paper tiger. 

If you are happy in your delusion and content to delude your students who am I to stand in your way. Craptasic HKD for all my men!  

Peace Brother. You're a hoot. 

Oh btw ground grappling, kicks and weapons have always been a part of hapkido.


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## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
> 
> I think that people will see that your counter argument of - "well it works for me" as hollow.


 
I think not.  You have been unable to prove that it does not.  You will be unable to prove it does not.  You are unwilling to state your experience with Combat Hapkido.  I am beginning to think you have absolutely none.  Your stated arguement is not with me, but GM Pellegrini and the ICHF.  You wish both himself and his organization to go under.  Take it up with him, not me.  



> I don't think I'm going to convince GM P to give up his golden calf. But I do think I can show people that he's a paper tiger.


 
You haven't been able to, up to this point.  Your crap in, crap out, craptastic arguement has been and is a failure.  The ICHF is far larger than your organization, whatever it may be.




> If you are happy in your delusion and content to delude your students who am I to stand in your way. Craptasic HKD for all my men!


 
Still with the personal insults.  Paper tiger, indeed.



> Peace Brother. You're a hoot.
> 
> Oh btw ground grappling, kicks and weapons have always been a part of hapkido.


 
And so it has been with TKD, if we are to believe posts on the TKD Forum.  Keep chugging backwards, I'll forge ahead.

Anyway, my Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu!


----------



## Kumbajah

You are learning from a video tape -  you are teaching what you have learned from a video tape - you are charging for it - there really isn't much more to say.

I guess in land of the blind the one eyed man is king. 

Again, Peace Brother - it's your conscious bugging you not me. 

BTW Hapkido's history and curriculum is fairly well documented - not the 2000 year bs TKD spouts. You're kind of flexing your ignorance.


----------



## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> You are learning from a video tape - you are teaching what you have learned from a video tape - you are charging for it - there really isn't much more to say.
> 
> I guess in land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
> 
> Again, Peace Brother - it's your conscious bugging you not me.
> 
> BTW Hapkido's history and curriculum is fairly well documented - not the 2000 year bs TKD spouts. You're kind of flexing your ignorance.


 
Still spouting insults.  Really, if you want to put the ICHF out of business, take it up with GM Pellegrini.  Here is his contact info:

www.dsihq.com
(480) 895-9700

He is in Iraq right now, so maybe you can wait until next week to do him in.

Still waiting for that proof that he is a paper tiger.

I sleep very well at night.  Thank you for your concern though.


----------



## Kumbajah

Again - I don't think GM P is going to turn off the spigot. I can only dissuade people from pursuing  it and similar programs. 

You only have to watch him to see he's a paper tiger. He advertises his lack of skill. Look at his video and compare to any THKD master. The difference is evident. I don't have to prove anything -it's there in full Technicolor. 

It's not a fell swoop that will bring him down- it's the  principle of Yu. 

Good Luck with your videos.


----------



## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> Again - I don't think GM P is going to turn off the spigot. I can only dissuade people from pursuing it and similar programs.
> 
> You only have to watch him to see he's a paper tiger. He advertises his lack of skill. Look at his video and compare to any THKD master. The difference is evident. I don't have to prove anything -it's there in full Technicolor.
> 
> It's not a fell swoop that will bring him down- it's the principle of Yu.
> 
> Good Luck with your videos.


 
Thank you for your kind wishes, they mean so much to me.  Oh, and by the way they are DVD's, we upgraded, that is why our technique is so much better now. 

I do believe it will be the Won and Hwa Principles that will bring you arround.

Bye, bye.


----------



## Kumbajah

lol -That was actually pretty funny. I can't wait for HD. 

When you watch him stutter step through his techniques, I hope you realize what you been sold. You can stop the cycle. 

Don't do it man. Don't do it. 

Peace.


----------



## Drac

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Drac
MT Moderator*


----------



## matt.m

Well in Pelligrini's defense he was a student of Kwang Sik Myung.  He had attained a black belt in TKD before training under Myung.  I don't know his exact rank of attainment under Myung, however from what I have seen of ICHF stuff on youtube it isn't bad.

However, a black belt will understand body mechanics better than a white belt.  Who's to say.  I mean the Gracies have their books and dvd's.  He-Young Kimm has his books and DVD's.  That is just to name a few.  However, no one bitches about a book.  It is almost laughable to learn from a book if you are a beginner.  

Sadly everyone bashes a dvd but a book is worse, just my opinion.


----------



## Drac

matt.m said:


> Sadly everyone bashes a dvd but a book is worse, just my opinion.


 
I must agree...


----------



## Kumbajah

matt.m said:


> I mean the Gracies have their books and dvd's.  He-Young Kimm has his books and DVD's.  That is just to name a few.  However, no one bitches about a book.  It is almost laughable to learn from a book if you are a beginner.
> 
> Sadly everyone bashes a dvd but a book is worse, just my opinion.



The difference is they aren't offering rank in conjunction. They aren't part of a distance learning program. 

Seminars, DVDs, and Books are all just supplements not the meal.


----------



## Kumbajah

matt.m said:


> Well in Pelligrini's defense he was a student of Kwang Sik Myung.  He had attained a black belt in TKD before training under Myung.  I don't know his exact rank of attainment under Myung, however from what I have seen of ICHF stuff on youtube it isn't bad.



http://www.hapkidoforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=194



> Pellegrini made his 1st dan from the late Michael Wollmerhauser (AHA) while living in Florida and teaching Taekwondo. This was during an AHA event at Chester Holubeckis' Isshinryu Karate school in Orange City, Florida. No particular year was given but the range was '88, '89 or '90.
> 
> Approximately a year later Pellegrini was awareded an "honorary" 2nd Dan from Master Wollmerhauser.
> 
> Later, in 1991, GM Pellegrini is seen in a World Hapkido Federation event photograph and in 1993 was awarded a 4th dan by KJN Myung just a bit before being asked to leave the organization. 1993 was also the year that the International Combat Hapkido (ICHF) produced its first set of tapes.
> 
> April 18th, 2004, GM Pellegrini was promoted to 9th dan under GM In Sun Seo. This took place in Pusan, South Korea. GM Rudy Timmerman and GM Doo Hyung Cho were also promoted to 9th dan. Also present were Robert Gray, 3rd Dan (currently 4th Dan; ICHF) and GM Serge Baubil (currently head International Hoshinkido Hapkido Federation (http://www.hoshinkidohapkido.com/).
> 
> The offical kwan name for the ICHF organization is Jeon Too Kwan (&#51204;&#53804;&#44288 , or "Chon Tu Kwan" as spelled by the ICHF. Recognition was given by GM In Sun Seo (World Kido Association) on March 27th, 1999.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> BTW It seems that TKD is fundamentally flawed in that the instructors don't think it's enough to teach it alone and seek to bolster it with Hapkido. I don't see HKD people seeking add on TKD. I yet to see a TKD studio that didn't mention HKD in the marketing material.


Greatly depends on the organization and instructors, so I would disagree with this, at least as a blanket statement.   

Taekwondo, in the big picture at least, has gone the direction of tournament fighting.  Nothing wrong with that; MMA really goes that direction for the most part too.  But because of this, things like sweeps and takedowns, and a lot of SD focus has all but vanished from many schools.  Instructors who seek to put it back in and can't find a TKD school that still contains these elements will generally go to the local hapkido school to get them.

Daniel


----------



## jks9199

matt.m said:


> Sadly everyone bashes a dvd but a book is worse, just my opinion.



Slightly off-topic... but I disagree.

A video, even with multiple angles of each technique, still can't see some of the elements of a technique.  In writing, I can describe a weight shift that's not really visible from the camera.  I can tell you where you should feel something, or how it should feel to receive a technique.  Sure, you can talk about that in video -- but it's just words, and people don't pay attention.  If they're bothering to read a book, they're going to read it.

Note that NEITHER books, nor videos, are sufficient for a beginner alone.  As an experienced student, I can probably learn some (but not all) techniques from a book or video -- especially if it's carefully put together.  But it's still not optimal; there's still no substitute for an experienced instructor guiding you through the learning process.


----------



## Brad Dunne

The following information was taken from the link that Kumbajah offered.

"In 1992 he founded the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF) 
Dedicated to being of service to the martial arts community, Grandmaster Pellegrini also founded several other organizations he felt were needed by the martial arts community: The Independent TaeKwonDo Association (ITA), International Police Defensive Tactics Institute (IPDTI), Self Defense America (SDA), and the World Martial Arts Alliance (WMAA)."

Perhaps one should ask themself, is fronting at least 5 organizations real dedication to the arts in general or just banking 101?


----------



## terrylamar

Brad Dunne said:


> The following information was taken from the link that Kumbajah offered.
> 
> "In 1992 he founded the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF)
> Dedicated to being of service to the martial arts community, Grandmaster Pellegrini also founded several other organizations he felt were needed by the martial arts community: The Independent TaeKwonDo Association (ITA), International Police Defensive Tactics Institute (IPDTI), Self Defense America (SDA), and the World Martial Arts Alliance (WMAA)."
> 
> Perhaps one should ask themself, is fronting at least 5 organizations real dedication to the arts in general or just banking 101?


 
I did ask myself that very question.  Since each organization covers a different and unique area my conclusion is that his primary motivation seems to be serving the Martial Arts community.  Is he making money by doing so, surely.  Who among us, that have our own schools, aren't.

Grand Master Pellegrini has received bad press from day one.  Yet, he has been promoted by people who seem to be above question.  Why not question them if you have doubts about GM P.?


----------



## terrylamar

jks9199 said:


> Slightly off-topic... but I disagree.
> 
> A video, even with multiple angles of each technique, still can't see some of the elements of a technique. In writing, I can describe a weight shift that's not really visible from the camera. I can tell you where you should feel something, or how it should feel to receive a technique. Sure, you can talk about that in video -- but it's just words, and people don't pay attention. If they're bothering to read a book, they're going to read it.
> 
> Note that NEITHER books, nor videos, are sufficient for a beginner alone. As an experienced student, I can probably learn some (but not all) techniques from a book or video -- especially if it's carefully put together. But it's still not optimal; there's still no substitute for an experienced instructor guiding you through the learning process.


 
And I disagree with parts of your post.

I do find a DVD far superior to a book. After all there is a saying, 
A picture is worth a 1,000 words. I will add, a DVD is worth a 1,000 pictures.

Better yet, would be a book and a DVD together. For those who would take the time to study both.

I do agree it is better to learn from a real live person teaching the techniques personally. There are limitations to this method of learning, also. 

What teacher has the time to devote to one student all his time so that one student learns the techniques perfectly?

What student has the resources to pay the teacher for his devoted time?

At most you get his attention for one hour per day. Maybe three times per week.

Divided by 30 students.

Less days off, holidays, sick time, lazy time.

This isn't a perfect formula, but I'm sure you get the picture.

My books and DVD's, on the other hand are there whenever I need them. 100% of their time, devoted to me.

Now the only question that remains is how much of my time can I or will I devote to them. Since they are available to at all times, I can watch or read at 0200 in the morning, on vacation, while I'm sick in bed, really, any time I choose.

Therefore I don't dismiss them as inferior methods of learning. While I agree, they do have some limitations, they, also, have some advantages.

Yes, I would prefer to learn from a real live person standing in front of me, ideally, I would combine all three for a superior learning experience, combined with a lot of willing training partners and realistic situations.

Until you have to use it in a real situation, you don't know if you have been trained properly or not, regardless of your training method.

Anyway, I have yet to see one of you offer any proof or cite any study indicating learning from a DVD is an inferior method of learning.

All this discussion has turned into, is what an evil, greedy person GM P. must be.


----------



## Brad Dunne

Grand Master Pellegrini has received bad press from day one. Yet, he has been promoted by people who seem to be above question.

From past reviews on several other forums, those parties that Mr. P. received his promotions from have been questioned and then some. Anytime there are/is questionable references to one's background (ie; he was asked to leave the organization) and quick jumping of grade levels, people will naturally ask questions and look with a juandice eye at the offered responses. 

Now as to fronting several organizations, he's serving the MA's community at large? Your opinion is your opinion and your naturally somewhat biased because you now belong, but looking from an outsiders position, other organizations under the same banner have been in place long before his offerings, so one can only position their opinion as to it is nothing more than reaching out for the almighty dollar. I have no personal heartburn with capitalism pre se, but I do have reservations when it's labeled as "for the good" of something, as in this case the MA's.


----------



## Kumbajah

> Until you have to use it in a real situation, you don't know if you have been trained properly or not, regardless of your training method.
> 
> Anyway, I have yet to see one of you offer any proof or cite any study indicating learning from a DVD is an inferior method of learning.



There have been many studies that cite the pros and cons of distance learning. Most focus on academic subjects. see 

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...lient=safari&rls=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholart

I think if you insert another activity (rather than an academic subject) into the equation as to distance it from martial arts you might see it more clearly. Would you go to a golf instructor that learned from a correspondence course? Fly with a correspondence pilot? Etc.

Since we've done this dance - I'll give way to other posters.


----------



## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> There have been many studies that cite the pros and cons of distance learning. Most focus on academic subjects. see
> 
> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...lient=safari&rls=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholart
> 
> I think if you insert another activity (rather than an academic subject) into the equation as to distance it from martial arts you might see it more clearly. Would you go to a golf instructor that learned from a correspondence course? Fly with a correspondence pilot? Etc.
> 
> Since we've done this dance - I'll give way to other posters.


 
I never said studies hadn't been done, only that none were being cited.  There are problems with it, yes, there are, also, advantages.  Proof is in the pudding, if it works for you, use it, if it doesn't work for you, bash it.

If a person can talk the talk, and walk the walk, sure, I have no problem learning from him.  Who cares where or who he learned from?  Can he teach you is the only question.


----------



## terrylamar

Brad Dunne said:


> Now as to fronting several organizations, he's serving the MA's community at large? Your opinion is your opinion and your naturally somewhat biased because you now belong, but looking from an outsiders position, other organizations under the same banner have been in place long before his offerings, so one can only position their opinion as to it is nothing more than reaching out for the almighty dollar. I have no personal heartburn with capitalism pre se, but I do have reservations when it's labeled as "for the good" of something, as in this case the MA's.


 
Indeed, it is my own opinion and I am not stating it as otherwise.  Naturally, you will agree, you are talking about your opinion as an outsider, with prejudice against GM P. and, therefore, his organizations.

Businesses come and go.  Someone always thinks they can build a better mouse trap.  Sometimes they can, other times they can't, they are still free to try.  I do see value in the ICHF, ITA and IPDTI.  The fact that you do not does not bother me.  I just don't make it a point to come on someone elses thread and bash their organizations.  I have better things to do with my time, like watch my DVD's and practice.


----------



## Kumbajah

"If it works..."  

You just recently started this program to supplement the self defense part of you TKD program.  You don't know yet if you are able to convey the information in a usable form and whether the students are able to absorb it, or even if it valuable workable information. I can appreciate you enthusiasm but you lack first hand knowledge that " it works" until you produce a "graduate" of this program that holds up to peer review- no? Yourself included. All you can reasonably say is "I hope that this program will be a benefit my TKD school." It seems a bit of hubris to say "it works"


----------



## Brad Dunne

I just don't make it a point to come on someone elses thread and bash their organizations. 

Ah!, but here in lies the root of the problem. You offered up the initial information when you started this thread and then took offense when folks offered opposing views. Your happy with your choice of organizations, so it's really no big deal. :asian:


----------



## Traditionalist

Kumbajah said:


> lol -That was actually pretty funny. I can't wait for HD.
> 
> When you watch him stutter step through his techniques, I hope you realize what you been sold. You can stop the cycle.
> 
> Don't do it man. Don't do it.
> 
> Peace.


 
I do not know who this guy is but I did watch some of the combat hapkido videos on youtube and I agree his foot work was horrible. There as several times he chose to twist the guy here and there and he could have thrown the guy or did a take down to end the situation. Plus I wasn't too fond of his using the tips of his fingers as a strike on the neck. I can only comment on what I saw, but I thought all Hapkido is combat hapkido. I was always told that is why there really isn't any hapkido tournaments out there because hapkido is a killing martial art not a sport. (I know there are hapkido tournament but give me a break).


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Admin Notice.*

A number of posts in this thread have been brought to my attention.  I would like to remind _everyone _that MartialTalk is not interested in being a Fraud Busting site.  There are many sites out there for that, where they also allow you to swear, brag, fling poo, and libel a will. *We however aren't one of them.*

This thread looks to have started with someone looking for a new direction, and they appear to have found it.

If you would like to politely discuss the art of Hapkido, Combat Hapkido, or such, please by all means do so. If you simple want to discredit someone I strongly suggest rereading our rules.  If you have a personal issue with GM Pellegrini take it up with him directly.

I'm not a student of his, however I've had the pleasure of having a couple of his students teach at our annual meet & greet, and I've heard no complaints concerning their quality, and both they and GM Pellegrini are always welcome to teach at our event.

If anyone has a problem with this statement, address it to the Steering Board.

Good evening.

Bob Hubbard
Martial Talk Administrator


----------



## terrylamar

Kumbajah said:


> "If it works..."
> 
> You just recently started this program to supplement the self defense part of you TKD program. You don't know yet if you are able to convey the information in a usable form and whether the students are able to absorb it, or even if it valuable workable information. I can appreciate you enthusiasm but you lack first hand knowledge that " it works" until you produce a "graduate" of this program that holds up to peer review- no? Yourself included. All you can reasonably say is "I hope that this program will be a benefit my TKD school." It seems a bit of hubris to say "it works"


 
No, I started this as a seperate program.  I have Hapkido students who have never studied TKD.  I, also, have some students that are in my TKD classes.

I do not teach any TKD in Hapkido class.  I do teach some Hapkido in TKD.  Not the entire cirriculum.

I am working my rear end off trying to offer the best Hapkido and TKD that I possibly can.


----------



## Drac

terrylamar said:


> I am working my rear end off trying to offer the best Hapkido and TKD that I possibly can.


 
The best of luck to you...Keep us posted...


----------



## Kumbajah

I feel somewhat responsible for the direction this thread. I apologize if I have stretched the boundaries of MT policies. I still hold firm to my opinion of distance learning. I think it is possible to discuss the topic with out discussing personalities - although I do not apologize for my opinion of certain personalities, I do realize that this isn't the place to voice them.


----------



## zDom

Not taking any sides here, but I do want to express an opinion:


An important part of hapkido instruction is not only teaching technique, but the student getting feedback from the instructor on their attempts to do the technique.

As an assistant instructor, I find that some things have to be SHOWN to the student by doing the technique TO them. Demonstrating with a third party while they watch is not always effective.

And while some problems with a student's technique can be spotted by watching, assessing a student's grasp of the technique (figuratively and literally ) is often best accomplished by having them do it to ME rather than a third party.


And while I have no issues with GM P, I do wish he would have gone with a different name as I agree with a statement made above that ALL hapkido is (or should be) _combat _ hapkido.


----------



## Brad Dunne

Don't think Kumbajah was the one at fault, I'll take the hit on this. The problem when dealing with a subject like this, is that it will lend itself to spiral into a more focused subject and that's what happened. Perhaps anytime a subject like this is started, mabey it should be referenced by the mods that this is not a favorable subject to be discussed (prior history's) and then just remove the thread/post before it morf's.
My apology for the re-routing.......


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## Kumbajah

How about we share. :uhyeah:

The tone was set before your comment.


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

Terry, with the understanding that you have several years of Hapkido training, I think that as long as you are very honest with your students and let them know that you have joined a new organization, and this is the teaching direction you are choosing, then they have the option to stay to go based.

I recommend that you confine your teaching to those techniques you are REALLY familiar with, until new material has been checked by whatever authority does so in CH. 

Although I do not understand the CH model, at all, I think it is a good idea to limit crossover between the arts you teach.  You added you also taught TKD.  While it is true (and I am saying this based on experience only with ITF) that the Hoshinsul aspect of TKD is based on Hapkido, there is really very little material from TKD that is useful in Hapkido.  And I do say that with all due respect to TKD practitioners, but TKD principles of motion and philosophy of technique are simply not very compatable in the Hapkido environment, this may or may not also be true with combat hapkido.

Last thing, but after many years of shaking my head at CH and its founder, Pelligrini - and a few not so nice sets of correspondence between us - I am far more interested now in the idea that many people are duped by who should be awarding rank in Hapkido, and how, and why Hapkido is so unusual in this regard in comparison to all other martial arts.  Just a thought, perhaps for another thread.


----------



## Brother John

matt.m said:


> However, no one bitches about a book. It is almost laughable to learn from a book if you are a beginner.
> 
> Sadly everyone bashes a dvd but a book is worse, just my opinion.


 
I agree with what you're saying! 
Nothing can or ever will compete with the quality of instruction you get from a face to face, teacher/student relationship you get at a school / dojang / dojo...etc.  
BUT: IF you are an experienced martial artist, I feel that both books and video can HELP in gaining other insights and distinctions that may help one out!! 
Also: I agree that video tends to be better than book. HOWEVER --> I feel that the absolute BEST is to have a combination of the two!! To have text that digs further or gives more explanation....but to have it paralel what is presented, demonstrated and shown in the DVD's. 

Your Brother
John


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Incidentally, I just read the January issue of Blackbelt and Master Peligrini is on the cover.

Daniel


----------



## JadeDragon3

Why does combat hapkido appeal to you but the traditional hapkido does not?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Me personally? It doesn't. I am a student of traditional hapkido.  I posted about Master Peligrini because it was mentioned in the OP.  

If you're responding to the OP, he'll have to answer that.

Daniel


----------



## terrylamar

JadeDragon3 said:


> Why does combat hapkido appeal to you but the traditional hapkido does not?


 
I'm not sure who you are addressing this question too, but I will answer.

A traditional hapkido school does appeal to me.  There isn't one within 150 miles.  I teach classes 6 days per week and cannot travel that far and make it back, not to mention the cost associated with driving 300 miles round trip.

My classes are a blend of the ICHF cirriculum and the Traditional Hapkido I learned before.  This is allowed in the ICHF system.

Combat Hapkido is a condensed version of Hapkido.  It removes all the acrobatic type techniques and limits falls.  This allows a wider cross section of the population to participate.  Namely, older people which I am fast becoming one.  I am pass the age where I want to jump over multiple people and do a forward roll.  I still can, it just isn't pleasant anymore.  Same with falls.  I don't want to be slammed into the mat.

I want to be able to attract older or non athletic students who may be otherwise turned off by the more brutal asspects of Traditional Hapkido.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Just an aside, I read the article, and Master Peligrini states pretty much that: no new or specialized moves, but the essential techniques as geared towards a soldier on the battlefield.  Here is a direct quote from the article; brackets and all.

_"In combat hapkido, we've stripped away a lot of the traditional trappings- such as the classical stances and positions.  We've [kept] the core of the art because basically a joint lock is a joint lock; nobody is going to reinvent it.  We've stripped it down to emphasize close-quarters comflicts for modern battlefield environments, and we take into acount that when [a soldier] strikes, joint locks, or takes somebody down, he's going to have equipment on."_

While I can see where this would appeal to a variety of people, I am not one of them.  I'm not a soldier on the battlefield, nor will I be given my age.  Part of the appeal of traditional hapkido for me is the traditional.  I enjoy the classical stances and positions and the Korean cultural aspects that one finds in a traditional school.  

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of Combat Hapkido, but it isn't for me personally.

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

> Why does combat hapkido appeal to you but the traditional hapkido does not?



It's easier and you aren't held accountable. 

"In combat hapkido, we've stripped away a lot of the traditional trappings- such as the classical stances and positions. We've [kept] the core of the art because basically a joint lock is a joint lock; nobody is going to reinvent it. We've stripped it down to emphasize close-quarters comflicts for modern battlefield environments, and we take into acount that when [a soldier] strikes, joint locks, or takes somebody down, he's going to have equipment on."

Read - we ignore the basics because we never learned them properly. 

Watch any video of GM P and you can see he lacks sound basics.


----------



## howard

Daniel Sullivan said:


> _"In combat hapkido, we've stripped away a lot of the traditional trappings- such as the classical stances and positions..._


More proof, if anybody needed it, that Pelligrini doesn't understand the basics of Choi Yong Sul's art.

Choi never taught "classical stances and positions", and didn't have any "trappings". Look at Jung Ki Kwan techniques, look at Yong Sul Kwan techniques, to see what I mean (both kwans led by direct 9th dan students of founder Choi).

Caveat emptor.


----------



## dortiz

Lol,
they probably mean those silly basic balanced stances that involve those heavy trapping single pivots. Replaced with much more combat ready shuffling of feet all about and leaning way over on basic armbars.

; )


Dave O.

Got to give him credit here
"I want to be able to attract older or non athletic students who may be otherwise turned off by the more brutal aspects of Traditional Hapkido."


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

howard said:


> More proof, if anybody needed it, that Pelligrini doesn't understand the basics of Choi Yong Sul's art.
> 
> Choi never taught "classical stances and positions", and didn't have any "trappings". Look at Jung Ki Kwan techniques, look at Yong Sul Kwan techniques, to see what I mean (both kwans led by direct 9th dan students of founder Choi).
> 
> Caveat emptor.


In our hapkido class, we practice tanjun breathing exercises from a horse stance, as well as warming up with various blocks and punches from a horse stance.  We perform the techniques either from a 'walking stance' or from a natural stance.  I don't know if long stances, back stances, or cat stances eventually enter the picture because in hapkido, I am only a 6th gup, testing for 5th next week (I'll be a killing machine once that blue stripe is affixed to my green belt).  Certainly, such stances are part of taekwondo.  We also learn Korean terminology, which makes sense since it is a Korean art.

I am assuming that such things are what Pelligrini is talking about when he says that they dispense with classical stances, positions and traditional trappings.  

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dortiz said:


> Lol,
> Got to give him credit here
> "I want to be able to attract older or non athletic students who may be otherwise turned off by the more brutal aspects of Traditional Hapkido."


I am surprised to hear traditional hapkido referred to as more brutal than something called _Combat_ hapkido. 

To be fair, I think by _brutal_, Terry means athletic/acrobatic based on the preceeding paragraph.

_"It removes all the acrobatic type techniques and limits falls. This allows a wider cross section of the population to participate. Namely, older people which I am fast becoming one. I am pass the age where I want to jump over multiple people and do a forward roll. I still can, it just isn't pleasant anymore. Same with falls. I don't want to be slammed into the mat."
_
Being one of those older people (41 is older in terms of performing martial gymnastics), I can see Terry's perspectice.  On the other hand, I have learned to do rolls and falls that I had never learned in years past and to do them better than most of the teens.  Admittedly, I have had _some_ falling and rolling in various taekwondo schools over the years, particularly at my current dojang, but still, it can be done.  

If he's talking about teaching beginning senior citizens, then I can see where this might be an issue, as the elderly generally need to work into such things more slowly and generally no longer have the ability to take the punishment of doing jumping rolls or break falls if they've never done them before. 

I guess that it all depends on the type of school you want to run: hard core, solid traditional, or a more hobbyist oriented class.

Daniel


----------



## crushing

dortiz said:


> Lol,
> they probably mean those silly basic balanced stances that involve those heavy trapping single pivots. Replaced with much more combat ready shuffling of feet all about and leaning way over on basic armbars.
> 
> ; )


 
I doubt they meant that.  Efficient footwork and proper posture is every bit as critical to effective techniques in Combat Hapkido as it is to Traditional Hapkido.


----------



## terrylamar

> I guess that it all depends on the type of school you want to run: hard core, solid traditional, or a more hobbyist oriented class.


 
I wouldn't charaterize my classes as "hobbyist oriented" just because I don't want to jump over 6' and land in a forwards roll.  I have been there and done that.  I learned to fall in Honduras on a cement floor.  I have that technique down pretty good.  I have found in the last 34 years of Martial Arts, it does not make you a better Martial Artist.  I will leave the acrobatics to the younger generation, while I spend more time perfecting my techniques.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Just to clarify, Terry, I wasn't trying to imply that that your class would be a hobbyist class.

Dave O commented regarding your trying to attract either older or non athletic students.  What I was getting at is that while you may be in good condition and have advanced technique, the average student coming into your class will likely not have advanced technique and may or may not be well conditioned.  

I'd wager that 90% of the people who engage in a martial art are hobbyists, so to a great degree, a school needs to work with that.  A hobbyist will have different training goals from a hard core or very traditional practitioner.  They may want the "tradition" in terms of wearing a dobok and dde, bowing upon entering the dojang, and the dojang etiquette that is typically associated with the martial arts.  But they may work a day job and not be able to risk sports injuries too frequently or may not have the energy after a full day at work to effectively do martial gymnastics.  

As I mentioned earlier, an older or indeed, elderly student will also have specific training needs that will prevent them from doing certain things, and likely martial gymnastics will be on that list.

Lastly, students who are over thirty may already be coming to you with a collection of sports injuries from football, high school wrestling, or whatever sports they may have participated in high school and college.

I'm certainly not familiar enough with Combat Hapkido to know how the curriculum compares directly to a traditional Hapkido curriculum, but I'd assume that a practitioner with your years of experience could take the techniques of the C/H curriculum and work them into a more traditional class.  

I do agree: XMA/martial gymnastics doesn't by itself make you better at defending yourself, though it does develope solid core strength.

In any case, I didn't mean to open a can of worms by bumping this thread.  I just happened upon Master Pelligrini in BB magazine and felt that it was of interest to the topic.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

JadeDragon3 said:


> Why does combat hapkido appeal to you but the traditional hapkido does not?



I imagine combat hapkido would be very appealing to sport TKD schools that are looking to add a stronger self-defense component.  If combat hapkido is effective, then I could see it filling in a needed niche.  

Didn't Dr. He Young Kimm recently associate his Hanmudo with the ITA, so that ITA taekwondo people can get exposure to his spin on hapkido? Sounds like a good idea.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Part of the reason that I took up hapkido was to add a stronger SD component to my KKW taekwondo.  Not the only reason, but it was a consideration.

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Part of the reason that I took up hapkido was to add a stronger SD component to my KKW taekwondo.  Not the only reason, but it was a consideration.
> 
> Daniel



Daniel, considering the overlap between hapkido and TKD, what made you continue to train in both?  I understand hapkido actually has its own huge array of kicks as well.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Since I bumped the thread, I do feel that I should point out that the OP (Terry) has black belt in a traditional hapkido style.  He's taken a lot of heat on this thread for the use of correspondence learning and for his choice of combat hapkido without much acknowledgement that he is a traditional hapkido yudanja.  

This isn't some blue belt who got cranked that it was taking him too long to get a black belt, got one from a paper mill and then got himself recognized with the IHCA.

This is a yudanja who's seniors are out of the area and who is over a hundred miles from another traditional school.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Daniel, considering the overlap between hapkido and TKD, what made you continue to train in both? I understand hapkido actually has its own huge array of kicks as well.


Both are offered at the same school as a separate course of study, and my GM was a hapkido instructor in the ROK special forces, so I felt that it was worth doing in addition.  I think that some of it is also that I had had an interest in hapkido for some time, as it also segues with kumdo at the blackbelt level; most hapkido systems from what I understand have a component of kumdo for yudanja, though it is a mok-do technique component, not juk-do technique. 

Daniel


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## Drac

Kumbajah said:


> It's easier and you aren't held accountable.
> 
> "In combat hapkido, we've stripped away a lot of the traditional trappings- such as the classical stances and positions. We've [kept] the core of the art because basically a joint lock is a joint lock; nobody is going to reinvent it. We've stripped it down to emphasize close-quarters comflicts for modern battlefield environments, and we take into acount that when [a soldier] strikes, joint locks, or takes somebody down, he's going to have equipment on."
> 
> Read - we ignore the basics because we never learned them properly.
> 
> Watch any video of GM P and you can see he lacks sound basics.


 
...So how many seminars around the world do you teach.??? Has the *U.S.M.C* ever *INVITED *you to teach at one of their facilities?? If there was something wrong with his system there would be more people crying "*FAKE, FAKE"* that just you...


----------



## Kumbajah

I'm not in the business of martial arts so my seminar schedule isn't germane to the conversation but If you think teaching the government  qualifies me to speak about basics,  I have been part of a seminar at Quantico for the FBI and an instructor for the White House Athletic Center, if that curls your short hairs. 

There there is the whole community of traditional Hapkido crying fake fake fake. The basics of proper movement are not there. The only defense I hear comes from within his organization. No one that practices THKD will say "oh yeah that guy is good." He moves like a gup rank. It's apparent in every video and pictorial ever produced by or about him. No "master" in any MA moves the way he does. Every master moves with confidence of knowledge and repetition  grounded proper basics. You don't need to practice the same martial art to know when someone moves well or not. Show me another art that stutter stepping through a the technique is proper form or holding the limb trapped outwards from your body generates power. He does the outer form poorly without understanding where the power generation comes from. As far as I know its not a physical abnormality that keeps him from performing  with good basics so my only conclusion is he either doesn't know any better or doesn't care. 

It's your money spend how you see fit but My opinion is it would better spent elsewhere.


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## jks9199

Folks, let's remember that Martial Talk is NOT in the business of fraudbusting -- and it's not something that's gonna go over well here.  Stick to facts and specific complaints, rather than calling someone a fake.

I've never met Grandmaste Pelligrini.  I've seen one video and a few clips, and my wife took a collegiate PE class that was billed as self defense, but was really just a few months of Combat Hapkido.  What she was taught wasn't bad, and my only complaint would have been eliminated had the class been called "Combat Hapkido 101."  (I have specific expectations and ideas about how a "self defense" class should be taught -- and it's not the same as teaching a martial arts class.)  It's almost inevitable that anyone who splits from an established style, especially if they go on to do their own thing, gets treated as a heretic by at least some members of the established style.

I think my views on pure video learning have been posted well before.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I think that like any supplemental program that is being integrated into an existing curriculum, the biggest factor is how well the instructor who is integrating the material has learned his or her basics.  Given that combat hapkido should present nothing new to a hapkido instructor, I see it more as just that: a curriculum.  If the instructor who is using it has solid traditional hapkido basics, then adding combat hapkido should be no problem at all and it shouldn't matter how well GM Pelligrini moves, as he isn't going to be the one teaching the class.

I will say that I look at the term, 'combat hapkido' a bit like I look at Jeet Kune Do and Classical Fencing.  Both of the gentlemen who coined those terms (Bruce Lee and Adam Adrian Crown) regreted ever coining them.  GM Pelligrini probably doesn't feel that way, which is fine, and I'm no marketing guru anyway.  

Personally though, I feel that it is a rather unfortunate moniker.  It plays well to the crowd that wants some sort of paramilitary style training, but it isn't a straight-from-the-military curriculum.  It also is off putting to many of the people to whom it might otherwise appeal.

That said, it seems to have worked for him and from what I have read on this board at least, it does answer a need for some MA schools.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that like any supplemental program that is being integrated into an existing curriculum, the biggest factor is how well the instructor who is integrating the material has learned his or her basics.  Given that combat hapkido should present nothing new to a hapkido instructor, I see it more as just that: a curriculum.  If the instructor who is using it has solid traditional hapkido basics, then adding combat hapkido should be no problem at all and it shouldn't matter how well GM Pelligrini moves, as he isn't going to be the one teaching the class.



I do see as a problem even though GM P isn't teaching the class. He is responsible for developing the curriculum. What he teaches is based on his understanding of the techniques. His understanding is shown in the way that he moves. They are connected. It's a GIGO situation.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> I do see as a problem even though GM P isn't teaching the class. He is responsible for developing the curriculum. What he teaches is based on his understanding of the techniques. His understanding is shown in the way that he moves. They are connected. It's a GIGO situation.


I can see that, but to play devil's advocate, if the CH curriculum consists of preexisting techniques that a veteran hapkidoin would already be familiar with and is already teaching anyway, are they then still connected?  

Or is the the hapkidoin who is using the curriculum simply doing what a lot of KKW instructors do: teach the specific techniques that make up KKW taekwondo as part of their class and teach other things that are not specifically KKW.  By being KKW certified, the school has some level of organizational support and is still teaching the same stuff it used to teach before, making sure that the students tests specifically include those techniques that the KKW requires.

With CH, a veteran teacher, from what I've read of Combat Hapkido, isn't going to be teaching any 'new' material, and if he or she is a veteran teacher, they'll already _know_ how to do these techniques correctly.  Saying, '_hey, I teach x,y, and z skill sets and my students have been tested on these techniques at gradings'_ now gets you organizational backing and whatever benefits come with it.

It could be for some schools that they just want to have something to say, "my dan certifications have more than just my say so" because some customers feel that that is important.  It could also be that the CH org offers club insurance (don't know if they do) at a discounted rate.  Since CH doesn't seem to require a school to disassociate itself from all other orgs and doesn't require the schools to conform to any specific business model, I can see where it would be appealing for a school that wants some kind of organizational backing but wants to remain relatively independent.

This is not an endorsement, mind you; I just find the conversation to be interestng.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

Daniel I look at this way,

If the "sins" of the new curriculum are washed away by prior traditional hapkido experience. Why would you knowingly seek out an inferior teacher or a inferior curriculum. One in which you know they are doing things incorrectly? Just so you can add a program to increase revenue? You are knowingly "selling" an inferior product. Unscrupulous at best. 

Besides nothing is stopping you from teaching the prior knowledge you have gained. You can convey Hapkido as Hoshinsool (as many TKD schools do) and don't need to offer a full program of inferior material. 

Also CHKD does say that there is new material outside the traditional Hapkido curriculum . They have brought in material from the Philippine martial arts and BJJ. Which is "new" material. If they misunderstand the base art of HKD how much confidence do you have in the added material. To me it all comes back to GM P, as a knowing martial artist you can see he lacks mastery so the program is suspect. imo


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> Also CHKD does say that there is new material outside the traditional Hapkido curriculum . They have brought in material from the Philippine martial arts and BJJ. Which is "new" material.


That would make a difference, I do agree. 

Daniel


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## Drac

Kumbajah said:


> I'm not in the business of martial arts so my seminar schedule isn't germane to the conversation but If you think teaching the government qualifies me to speak about basics, I have been part of a seminar at Quantico for the FBI and an instructor for the White House Athletic Center


 
You obviously are a serious instructor..




Kumbajah said:


> if that curls your short hairs.


 

Not by any stretch of the imagination...





Kumbajah said:


> It's your money spend how you see fit but My opinion is it would better spent elsewhere.


 
My opinion is that I am happy with this system and will keep at it..And I will *NEVER *run down anyones chosen discipline or their Grandmaster..


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## Kumbajah

As I get older -  I've taken never out of my vocabulary.  

Caveat Emptor is all I'm saying.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> Caveat Emptor is all I'm saying.


That is true regardless of style, system, or method of training.  Particularly here in the US, where we have such a vast amount of info at our fingertips and really can beware.

Daniel


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## Drac

Kumbajah said:


> As I get older - I've taken never out of my vocabulary.  .....


 
I pray I never get *that* old


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## Kumbajah

Well there's only one alternative to getting old. I hope you keep that at bay for a while


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## CDKJudoka

Kumbajah said:


> Well there's only one alternative to getting old. I hope you keep that at bay for a while




Yes and it is one of the two inevitabilities in life. That and taxes.


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## Drac

I hope that* ALL* those that question GM Pellegrini and practioneers of Combat Hapkido effectiveness actually attend a seminar...


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## Kumbajah

Or you could spend your money on something useful.  Plenty of Hapkido seminars throughout the year. GM Ji, GM West, GM Lim, GM Seo etc etc. People who have been doing HKD decades before GM P started his business of CHKD.


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## Drac

Kumbajah said:


> Or you could spend your money on something useful.


 
Whatever...




Kumbajah said:


> Plenty of Hapkido seminars throughout the year. GM Ji, GM West, GM Lim, GM Seo etc etc. People who have been doing HKD decades before GM P started his business of CHKD.


 
I have been too quite a few and was impressed..Again unlike you Brian I will *NEVER *put down any one system of GM until I have experienced it in person..


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## Father Greek

I have been watching this thread for some time now and can honestly say that i am very disappointed. I cannot believe that long time practicing Martial Artists can be so ignorant as to believe that one style is better than another. Can a Judo practioner beat a TKD practioner in a fight and vice versa? Can a Hapkido practioner beat an Aikido practioner in a fight and vice versa? The answer is *OF COURSE*! It is not the style, but the abilities of the Martial Artist that makes the difference. 

As for this ongoing battle about DVD learning, it works well for some and not for others. Again it comes back to the abilities of the individual. this is neither good nor bad just different.

And finally for those of you who seem to think that GM Pellegrini is some type of fraud, please come to one of his seminars and volunteer to be his ukei. If you feelthe same way after I will then respect your opinion.

Respectfully,
Father Greek


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## Sukerkin

Gentlemen, reading through the above exchanges this is getting awfully close to requiring some 'official' involvement, so might I remind everyone that not only do we expect our members to be able to disagree amicably on a given topic but also that we have very tight policies on what might be termed 'fraud busting'?

We all have our opinions on certain sensei or styles around the globe (I know I do) but it is beholden upon us here in these fora to steer clear from harshly negative statements which are plainly targeted at individuals in the martial arts world.

If we do not, then not only are flame wars only a spark or two away but also MartialTalk can become liable for any legal action that such maligned individuals choose to take.

So, gentlemen, a little more warmth and circumspection if you would.


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## Kumbajah

I don't think this is a discussion of style vs style but rather a person that seemed to have failed to learn proper basics of an art and then started his own. 

If you look at any other Hapkido Organization heads you will see a marked difference in ability compared to GM P. There will be stylistic differences between them. That isn't a problem imo, but going against the principles or failing to utilize them that make Hapkido Techniques work is a problem imo. This is apparent in GM P's execution.


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## Sukerkin

I'm going to assume that you didn't have chance to see what I asked above before your last post.

It would be best if the matter were allowed to rest at this point.

Mark. A. Beardmore
MT Moderator


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## Kumbajah

A case of simultaneous posting - I didn't see it.


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## Bob Hubbard

I would respectfully refer folks to my post #61 in this thread.

I realize that any time someone splits off, or designs their own art, there will be criticism. I'm personally rather skeptical of such, especially when it's accompanied by grandiose claims, and the type of rank titles and honorifics that would make a Sci-Fi Geek blink.

I don't believe GM Pellegrini however falls into that group, in my limited familiarity with him, his system and his students.

If the claim is that his art is lacking 'something', it is after all, his art with the components in it he chose to include. This is true of all arts.

If the claim is his techniques are sloppy, flawed, etc, I have to ask, by whose standards? Rather than say "he sucks", a better solution would be to take a well known technique or form, and compare various recognized experts doing the same.

In all honesty, is it really bad technique, or is it merely that same difference of opinion that has EPAK people screaming, where the differences are in a degree or 2 or a minor variation of angle, or difference of intent?

The best way to judge anyone's effectiveness will always be of course, to work with them. If you aren't willing to do that, then......


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## Kumbajah

At the risk of stepping over the line - I'm just following Bob's lead. 

For me it two problems - the one of distance learning. And...
Secondly the skill level of GM P. I have tried to point out that it is not merely a stylistic difference, There are many styles of Korean MAs that draw from HKD - Kuk Sool Won, Hwarangdo, Han Mu Do, Hankido, etc. all have marked stylistic differences. Yet you can see the mastery of each the Founders. By extension you can look at the Jujutsu arts that Hapkido shares principles. Again you will see a level of mastery from higher ranked people. 

Things that I see in GM P's execution that are counter to all the principles that are shared by these various arts are ( not a complete list ) in part:

Stutter stepping through techniques, Trying to manipulate an attackers joint far away from his body ( not utilizing the strength of whole body movement) Trying to manipulate the joint separately rather then part of a whole, Usually attempting the manipulation or throw too far away from the attacker, the proper position is ignored in deference to trying to "attack" the attacker. 

Here is a sample - 




Those of you that practice hapkido or other Jujutsu arts share many of the same techniques. Can you honestly say that he seems to have mastered these techniques. It's not as if these techniques are new. They are shared across a variety of arts. Putting stylistic differences aside I think that most ( those outside CHKD) would agree with my assessment.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I don't feel personally qualified to judge his degree of mastery, being that I am a sixth geub hapkidoin.

I do know that I've been around a bit and have had a fairly generous amount of practical SD and exposure to joint locks, sweeps and takedowns, as these have been a part of my taekwondo classes, so I do feel that I'm in a postition to judge if the guy is a fake, and there is nothing in the clip that you posted that would lead me to believe that he's incompetent in any way.  He moved with confidence and certainly didn't have the look of a novice about him.

I've never been to any of his seminars, but it is very possible that the man is an incredibly skilled teacher.  

Perhaps you're seeing something that I'm not, so I'm not going to say that you're right in your estimation or not.  And without attending a seminar or viewing the curriculum, I will refrain from making estimations of him.

In any case, my impression of the video is that if I didn't know who he was and I walked into his school and saw him perform the way that he did on the video in the context of a lesson, it wouldn't make me turn and walk out; I'd need more than three minutes and eight seconds to decide that.  

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

If you can't see any problem with his execution then I am glad that I took the time to comment  This partially the problem imo. If you seen it done correctly the difference is obvious imo. If you haven't ... well he might seem like he knows what he's doing. 

Compare to 











I have no idea who these people are but they do hapkido better than GM P.  ( they're not "names" ) Take special note of the amount of steps they take per technique, their posture and using weight shifts to affect the attacker. The difference is obvious to me - if you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer.


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## MBuzzy

I would have to echo a few above and say that it is essential that you work with the man before passing judgement.  I have attending a GM P seminar as well as seminars offered by instructors in his organization.  His techniques and style focus on effectiveness and I can say with 100% surety that they are effective and they work.  That is all that matters.  I cannot comment on the man himself or his skills, except to say that everything that I learned from him and his style is effective.

BUT, as Sukerkin said above, it may be best to let this topic rest for now.  If you are interested in a discussion on particular techniques and effectiveness, that is a different story, but this is not the place to decide on an individual's skill.


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## Kumbajah

> BUT, as Sukerkin said above, it may be best to let this topic rest for now. If you are interested in a discussion on particular techniques and effectiveness, that is a different story, but this is not the place to decide on an individual's skill.



But that is the crux of the problem. The techniques come from Hapkido which are effective but not in the way that are manifested through his execution. If one is going to buy his program ( videos, seminars, rank etc) which was the focus of the OP I think that it would behoove them to have an assessment of his skills because it shows his understanding of the principles which the techniques are based on.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> If one is going to buy his program ( videos, seminars, rank etc) which was the focus of the OP I think that it would behoove them to have an assessment of his skills because it shows his understanding of the principles which the techniques are based on.


I posted this regarding video/correspondence instruction on another thread, but I'll repost it here, but applied to GM Peligrini's instruction via DVD. Keep in mind that this was posted on a different thread in response to different posts, but I believe that it is applicable to the video instruction part of this thread as well.

_"I think that having a background in an art or a skill helps greatly in the use of video instruction. But video instruction is more effective for some people than for others. Different people learn most effectively through different senses. Some people see it and pick it up; these are visual learners. Others depend greatly on the verbal content and others need to do something with a literal guiding hand twenty times before they can do it themselves even once._

_I have trained in places and seen classes where the students may as well have been watching a video. The instructor was physically present in the room, so yes, it was an in person instructor, but they didn't do anything beyond showing the techiques to the class visually. Needless to say, the visual learners were able to get much more out of these classes than everyone else. A school I trained at years ago had an instructor who taught that way and aside from myself and three others, everyone hated his classes. I preferred the other classes, but didn't hate this guys. But I am also a visual learner. If he had been the only instructor, I would have gone elsewhere, as there were times when I needed more than just a visual demonstration._

_I wish that I could say that that sort of instruction wasn't the norm, and maybe it isn't, but it is much more commonplace than it should be, particularly in my area, where McDojos are all over the place. Compared to some very horrible schools I've seen (thankfully not too many) and heard about (more than I'd have cared to know existed), DVD instruction would be preferable. _

_I havent seen the _CHDK_ vids, so I have no comment on them specifically. Regarding video instruction, I think that the key things to remember with a DVD instructional class are: _

_Firstly, knowing what kind of learner you are. If you can't pick up things visually, then a DVD instructional course is a complete waste of money. _

_Secondly, being aware of the limitations of correspondence learning is important: it isn't the same as having an instructor there. You can't ask it a question and get an immediate answer and it cannot critique you._

_Thirdly, student with a solid background in either the same style or several similar styles will get a lot more out of a DVD instructional than a novice. An advanced student will already have a good understanding of body mechanics, timing and distance, chambering, sparring and practicing with a resisting opponent and such that someone with no previous experience in any martial art will have. I have a large amount of books and some videos and those have provided a lot of useful and helpful insights to me during my training. But I feel that I get a lot more out of them because I already know what I'm looking at than I would have if I'd never set foot in a dojo."_

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

I have laid out some of my problems with distance learning and the function of DVDs in one's training earlier in the thread. There is still the problem of the instruction regardless of the vehicle. You gain understanding though explanation, watching and copying (auditory, visual and kinesthetic ) we all utilize each to varying degree. Most people have a dominate learning style. Now my problem with not doing a technique demonstrating the proper principles are : If you are a visual learner you get the wrong information there isn't a way to make the leap from improper to proper without knowledge of the proper. If you are an auditory learner - you may receive the "proper" explanation but the visual doesn't match the audio, confusing at best or the understanding was never there so you can't get the proper explanation. If you are "doer" or Kinesthetic  learner, first, you are out of luck with a DVD if it is a seminar you don't get the proper physical feedback. As the attacker you feel the technique done incorrectly as the defender you only have what you felt as an attacker and the physical model of the instruction as your guide. If he takes a bunch of little steps to affect a technique is must be correct -no? 

I'll discuss a specific technique from the video posted later, when I have a bit more time. Today sometime.


----------



## Kumbajah

:08 to :12 from 




Is a "standard" hapkido arm bar. The progression - the attacker punches, you step off line, you use his momentum to take him to the floor using his arm as a lever taking him to the deck. 

Why I think his application is wrong, not just stylistically different, is in his manifestation the attacker becomes the center of the motion where as in Hapkido and other Jujutsu arts the defender is the center of the motion and the attacker movers around you. 

GM P deflects the punch and bars the arm. He then moves his body through a series of small steps around the lock to the point that he has moved 360º and the attacker is on the deck. This is not in keeping with the principles of Hap/Ju/Ai/Non resistance etc. One this inefficient use of motion the same movement can be achieved though one step and a pivot. Two instead, of using the momentum of the attacker you are stopping his motion and then forcing him into moving instead of transferring his forward momentum into downward momentum. The large arc of the movement makes it a strength against strength movement. The "struggle for power" GM P's forearm and his elbow happens outside GM P's sphere of influence - he's chasing the lock. Thirdly the large arc doesn't utilize a weight transfer. This is also part of chasing the lock - the power is isolated in the arm, he's not using the whole power of his structure to drop the attacker. Try pressing down on someone that is larger than you without using your weight and see if they can't stand up or conversely if you are large have someone do it to you. If use your weight the power of the technique is greatly increased. 

To be continued...


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## Daniel Sullivan

I'll have to view these clips later, as I am at work and Youtube is blocked.

Daniel


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Adminstration Notice.*

*A number of posts in this thread are continuing to be brought to the moderating staff's attention.  I would like to remind everyone that **MartialTalk is not interested in being a Fraud Busting site.
**Fraud Busting is not tolerated nor will we allow it as a regular course of action. 
**Please read our rules located here concerning fraud busting.*

*If anyone has a problem with this statement, address it to the Steering Board.

MartialTalk Assistant Administrator
Brian R. VanCise*


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## Brad Dunne

I understand the policy in place, but throughout this entire thread, I have not seen anything related to anyone being called a fraud or a phony or just plain sucks. What I have seen is a debate regarding someone's offered physical abilities, as it relates to others being offered valued instructions and some felt, that valued instructions were not present and they offered their assessment of why it was so. IMO, no harm, no foul!............


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## shesulsa

Brad Dunne said:


> I understand the policy in place, but throughout this entire thread, I have not seen anything related to anyone being called a fraud or a phony or just plain sucks. What I have seen is a debate regarding someone's offered physical abilities, as it relates to others being offered valued instructions and some felt, that valued instructions were not present and they offered their assessment of why it was so. IMO, no harm, no foul!............



When the words "fake, fake, fake" are used to describe an individual, his system and teaching style, the term "fraudbusting" applies and that's why you see repeated staff warnings - which are applicable to everyone, btw, not just the immediately preceding poster.

The conversation has come a long way from the beginning, however, please take care to heed staff warnings and discuss the matter with aplomb.

Thank you.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
Assist. Administrator


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## matt.m

I wish to point out the following, just my opinion. Hapkido isn't just joint locks......Nope it is heavily delved into throwing and if you want to have any longevity in the art you must know how to fall. If you don't then you may as well take judo and disregard falling as well.:erg:

Plus hapkido is a "Feeling" art. By this I mean you learn how to give pain and do the techniqe correctly and efficiently then you must know what it feels like to be in the technique.

About combat hapkido I offer this.  If you don't like or believe in it then disregard it.  If it spins your wheels then cool.  Martial Arts have always had an out of the dojang following.  He-Young Kimm, Bong Soo Han, Bruce Lee, and countless others have books etc.  DVD is there because it is an easy medium.  I will offer this for thought......

The KKW has a DVD showing the Taeguek poomsea, all are shown on the DVD.  A white belt can mimick the movements but not do it correctly.  However a 1st dan in TKD can look at the video on the DVD medium and see what they are doing wrong in the pattern.  A gup rank can do the same, as long as they stay in their belt grade.

The point is you don't have the guy doing the poomsea telling you about the physics and keniesology behind the techniques.  Raise of hands, who is poking at the KKW for releasing a DVD as a refrence aid to their book or sold seperately concerning poomsea?


----------



## matt.m

I have to agree with this whole "So and so is this and that."  It is nonsense, look I don't care for Aikido.  Is it decent? Yes.  Is Ueshiba a legend?  Yes.  Do I participate in Aikdo? No, I don't.  I do hold the founder in high regard and have a book dedicated to him with nice red cover.  I don't talk crap about the art of aikido or any of its masters, to do so is just rude.

I find that I myself get received and perceived by others easier if I find some kind of good quality or something nice to say about someone rather than go through the whole defamation thing.


----------



## seasoned

Kumbajah said:


> I don't think this is a discussion of style vs style but rather a person that seemed to have failed to learn proper basics of an art and then started his own.
> 
> If you look at any other Hapkido Organization heads you will see a marked difference in ability compared to GM P. There will be stylistic differences between them. That isn't a problem imo, but going against the principles or failing to utilize them that make Hapkido Techniques work is a problem imo. This is apparent in GM P's execution.


 

This forum is neutral ground for sharing and discussion. Focusing toward specific individuals crosses the line of good etiquette. Focusing on a technique, and its proper use in ones own art, is better then focusing on a specific individual, and their endeavors. Notice how my above statement mentioned no one in particular, but made a generic statement in a general sense. IMHO. J


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## Kumbajah

Probably this thread has run it's course. 

As adults, I do think it possible to discuss the program and it's founder without the discussion of qualitative quantifiers ( Good/Bad, Right/Wrong, Correct/ Incorrect), which seems to be the part that is in violation of policy. 

If we can agree on the premise that GM P's execution is the "de facto"  execution of Combat Hapkido because he is the founder of the art, we can ask the question. "Why is his execution different from other Hapkido / Jujutsu arts? " and proceed from there. 

Or not  I'll defer to the moderations discretion.


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## matt.m

Question. When, What location, and what time did you "Teach" at Quantico. I have friends that are high up in the enlisted food chain I know a lot of what goes on for Moral, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) and who they invite and sponsor for Seminar purposes when the U.S. Marines are concerned.

It is neat, since I was a member of the All Marine Judo team I suppose that when I did teaching of any kind then I did indeed train the Marines right? Wrong. Unless the Marine Corps does an overhaul of their Martial Arts training program then you didn't teach the military.

Consider this as well: I have seen a lot of so called hapkido. To say some of it was craptacular would be very kind. My outlook is this, if it spins your wheels cool do it. If you don't like it then fine, change the channel and move on.  Albeit there are hapkido "Masters and Grandmasters" that I don't care for.  Whatever the reason it is mine, you won't see me doing an internet BB posting about this rant though.


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## Kumbajah

> Question. When, What location, and what time did you "Teach" at Quantico. I have friends that are high up in the enlisted food chain I know a lot of what goes on for Moral, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) and who they invite and sponsor for Seminar purposes when the U.S. Marines are concerned.
> 
> It is neat, since I was a member of the All Marine Judo team I suppose that when I did teaching of any kind then I did indeed train the Marines right? Wrong. Unless the Marine Corps does an overhaul of their Martial Arts training program then you didn't teach the military.
> 
> Consider this as well: I have seen a lot of so called hapkido. To say some of it was craptacular would be very kind. My outlook is this, if it spins your wheels cool do it. If you don't like it then fine, change thechannel and move on.



The FBI is also at Quantico  I was part of a company PASS (now defunct ) That had  My Grandmaster Jin Pal Kim and Former DEA Chief of Operations Management William Simpson at the head.


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## zDom

matt.m said:


> Hapkido isn't just joint locks......Nope it is heavily delved into throwing and if you want to have any longevity in the art you must know how to fall. If you don't then you may as well take judo and disregard falling as well.:erg:



That is true of MSK hapkido (we have a HEAVY emphasis on throwing  and also kicks  don't forget our kicks!) but others may disagree, Matt.

Some HKD styles may feel perfectly comfortable with calling a collection of joint locking techniques "hapkido" believing the throws (and kicks?) just aren't that important.


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## matt.m

Great answer,

Everybody knows the F.B.I. training academy is on Quantico.  You weren't forthcoming on the time period.  I mean something that monumental would be documented well would it not?

Back when I was in 92-97 the Gracies visited Camp Lejeune, NC and Quantico.  Their visit was documented by Stars and Stripes and Leatherneck Magazine.

Hell anytime someone in the sports, martial arts world from Frank Zane to Mike Swain was documented thouroughly.



Kumbajah said:


> The FBI is also at Quantico  I was part of a company PASS (now defunct ) That had My Grandmaster Jin Pal Kim and Former DEA Chief of Operations Management William Simpson at the head.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

zDom said:


> That is true of MSK hapkido (we have a HEAVY emphasis on throwing  and also kicks  don't forget our kicks!) but others may disagree, Matt.
> 
> Some HKD styles may feel perfectly comfortable with calling a collection of joint locking techniques "hapkido" believing the throws (and kicks?) just aren't that important.


Ours tends to be fairly evenly distributed, though more joint locks and take downs than throws (60/40), with a lot of training in kicks and punches, and of course, a lot of rolling and falling.  We also practice meditation and tanjon breathing.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah

matt.m said:


> Great answer,
> 
> Everybody knows the F.B.I. training academy is on Quantico.  You weren't forthcoming on the time period.  I mean something that monumental would be documented well would it not?
> 
> Back when I was in 92-97 the Gracies visited Camp Lejeune, NC and Quantico.  Their visit was documented by Stars and Stripes and Leatherneck Magazine.
> 
> Hell anytime someone in the sports, martial arts world from Frank Zane to Mike Swain was documented thouroughly.



It wasn't a major event. I.E.  it wasn't a R&R event nor a self promotion event.  We we're vying for a contract. We did a demo then instruction for the instructors at the FBI Academy. Nice guys.I'm unsure of the exact date. I'd put it around  2004 (5).  Here are a couple of pictures from the day. It wasn't that big a deal imo. 

http://www.kimjinpalhapkido.com/component/option,com_rsgallery2/Itemid,10/catid,9/lang,english/


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## crushing

Kumbajah said:


> It wasn't a major event. I.E. it wasn't a R&R event nor a self promotion event. We we're vying for a contract. We did a demo then instruction for the instructors at the FBI Academy. Nice guys.I'm unsure of the exact date. I'd put it around 2004 (5). Here are a couple of pictures from the day. It wasn't that big a deal imo.
> 
> http://www.kimjinpalhapkido.com/component/option,com_rsgallery2/Itemid,10/catid,9/lang,english/


 

Is there a video to use as a comparison to the youtube video to which you linked earlier in the thread? A compare and contrast would be interesting.


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## Kumbajah

Not from that event. There are videos on http://www.hapkidocanada.com/ and also YouTube of GM Kim, Master Lok and other Jin Pal Hapkido practitioners. A search for Jin Pal Hapkido should give you a few.


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## iron_ox

Hello everyone,

I think that if the OP wants to include CH in his dojang, this is completely his choice, and he has as much access to the internet and the opinions about Pelligrini as everyone else.

I am curious about the logic behind the choice however. If it is because of distance, then having to drive 100 more miles to a dojang should not be that big a deal.  Now, I have heard that CH as a large amount of material on DVD and this can be a help if you cannot attend regular classes - but is it then a case of polished advertising material, or strong Hapkido?  This is a question I ask many people that say they train with me for proximity - if that is the only reason, they should look around and be sure I am the type of place they want.

This is just curiosity, for the OP, again, not having a dog in the fight if you will, I am just wondering if it is really a distance issue or were other factors at work, like polished advertising that drew you to CH.

Kumbajah, I understand your frustration, but the CH debate has been beaten to death here and elsewhere - I am going to start a thread here shortly that will ask some more indirect questions about Hapkido itself, the nature of the art and when have changes been made so far from he original material that the art is not the same.
Now, the one thig I can say (again) is that if the OP has done his homework ( and I am sure that he has) he has seen the debate around CH and has concluded in his mind that it is irrelevant to his situation - so you and I can pull our hair out questioning elements of Pelligrini's technique - if the OP is happy, let's smile with him...
BTW, looks like the Quantico thing was fun - I have also taught at several military instilations and with several military groups over the years, and where it was lots of fun, I was never under any dilusions they would not have a firearm handy most of the time in their jobs - but we were a good distraction.

Now my own opinion is that CH is what it is.  I am well aware of the lineage of Pelligrini, and as such am also well aware of the shortcomings of that material.  BUT, CH is a "known entity" - anyone can do some study into the background of CH (and lots of other arts) and if it is right for them, then I think we can assume that an informed choice has been made.  I have met some very nice and sincere people in CH.  

CH is a variant of the original Hapkido of Choi Dojunim, as probably 90% of the "Hapkido" worldwide is.  I wish the word Hapkido was not in the title, but at least Pelligrini is somewhat honest in the evaluation that what he teachs is not Traditional - it is unfortuante in my opinion, that he has never really been exposed to the original material, so I think when he makes some statements they are often not fully informed, but rather based on his experience in yet another variant of the art from Myung and Seo.  The problem is that when people are pushed to be more itellectually honest about what they have learned/teach try to defend tales told to them they accepted as truth.  The Founder of Hapkido only died 22 years ago...the art is fully traceable through every lineage. Hopefuly in 2009, we can find a little more inellectual honesty.


----------



## Kumbajah

> BTW, looks like the Quantico thing was fun - I have also taught at several military instilations and with several military groups over the years, and where it was lots of fun, I was never under any dilusions they would not have a firearm handy most of the time in their jobs - but we were a good distraction.



This is an excellent point and I think often overlooked. Much of what we do in MAs weather traditional or "modern" is irrelevant to their needs. We do have things that they can borrow ( hand cuffing, weapon retention, falls) but most things are extraneous. 

The only reason the FBI thing came up because one poster seemed to think it was a prerequisite for talking about GM P. 

Good post.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> This is just curiosity, for the OP, again, not having a dog in the fight if you will, I am just wondering if it is really a distance issue or were other factors at work, like polished advertising that drew you to CH.


I offered this possiblilty back on page seven, but all of the follow up had to do with GM.P's perceived ability and qualifications.


Daniel Sullivan said:


> It could be for some schools that they just want to have something to say, "my dan certifications have more than just my say so" because some customers feel that that is important. It could also be that the CH org offers club insurance (don't know if they do) at a discounted rate. Since CH doesn't seem to require a school to disassociate itself from all other orgs and doesn't require the schools to conform to any specific business model, I can see where it would be appealing for a school that wants some kind of organizational backing but wants to remain relatively independent.


Since CHD is marketed as a bolt on curriculum as well as a full curriculum, going GM.P.s org is a good way to get organizational backing without having all sorts of restrictions or requirements placed upon the school.

Terry hasn't posted on this thread in a while and only he can answer that in any detail, though if I recall from early on in the thread, that was one of the considerations.

Daniel


----------



## terrylamar

iron_ox said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I think that if the OP wants to include CH in his dojang, this is completely his choice, and he has as much access to the internet and the opinions about Pelligrini as everyone else.
> 
> I am curious about the logic behind the choice however. If it is because of distance, then having to drive 100 more miles to a dojang should not be that big a deal.


 
Actually, it is a big deal. The distance is 150 miles to the closest city with Hapkido. That mileage is to San Antonio, not where Hapkido is taught within the city. 150 miles times two, I do have to get back. 300 miles per trip, figure five hours driving time for one training sessiion. 300 miles cost somewhere arround $40.00 in my F350 at current fuel prices. A few short months ago it was double that.

I teach classes Monday through Friday 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM, Saturday 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM. With those hours and that distance, I have not been able to find a Hapkido class. I did and do an extensive search, I have not given up finding a Hapkido class that I can attend, but the search seems fruitless.

My availible hours are, adjusting for drive times, 11:00 PM to 2:00 PM the next day. I drive to Austin every weekend, a four hour trip and don't arrive until after 5:00 PM on Saturday. I do have all day Sunday.

I had a lead on a school that held classes on the third Sunday of each month, sadly, that ended some time ago.

With my schedule and teaching commitments the only other live training I can attend will be seminars. That, I intend to do and not only Combat Hapkido seminars. So, I may see some of you at these seminars.



> Now, I have heard that CH as a large amount of material on DVD and this can be a help if you cannot attend regular classes - but is it then a case of polished advertising material, or strong Hapkido? This is a question I ask many people that say they train with me for proximity - if that is the only reason, they should look around and be sure I am the type of place they want.


 
No, it is not becasue of slick advertising. I am 52 years old and have been arround the block once or twice. I started taking Martial Arts, Judo, in the mid 70's while in the Marine Corps. The ICHF fits my needs. Despite the controversy, at least in some people's minds, Combat Hapkido I find to be a credible system. I, also, find that the ICHF fills my needs after a long conversation with GM Pellegrini.

I attended a seminar with GM P. back in 1989. Something, many, if not all of his distractors have not done. Since then, I went on to earn a Black Belt in a traditional style of Hapkido. I wish to progress, and I find the best way is through Combat Hapkido, supplemented by seminars.



> This is just curiosity, for the OP, again, not having a dog in the fight if you will, I am just wondering if it is really a distance issue or were other factors at work, like polished advertising that drew you to CH


 
There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is? My suggestion, is to hold what you have to say, until you have attended a seminar, afterwards, you will have more credibility.

Frankly, I'm tired of this thread and the direction it has gone. To me, it seems some people have agendas against Combat Hapkido, opinions formed without any first hand knowledge. Perhaps, instead of worrying about my motivations, you need to examine your own.


----------



## Kumbajah

> There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is? My suggestion, is to hold what you have to say, until you have attended a seminar, afterwards, you will have more credibility.



The problem with this counter argument is, 1. one ends up supporting the Personality or organization financially. So they are laughing their way to the bank. They would want more paying doubters - their money is just as spendable as the true believers. 

Secondly in the "age of information" there are many visual resources. I have tried to discuss the merits of the technique that can be derived from those sources. As of yet I haven't received any counter argument.  Something along the lines of "we do it that way because..." or "we deviate from other Hapkido and Jujutsu executions because..." I think that you are in the unique position to compare and contrast because you have exposure to both. The techniques that are in the video I posted are also practiced in traditional hapkido and Jujutsu so many have familiarity with variations with these techniques. Yet all the CHKD supporters say is take a seminar. 

With that being said, I will happily attend a seminar if someone else is paying. There is one in my area in March.


----------



## Father Greek

Terry, I am very happy that you are pleased with your affiliation with ICHF. I too had an extensive background in the Martial Arts and made the change to Combat Hapkido. I found that the program was more germain to todays societal ills and made more sense then most of what I did in the past. I was able to incorporate some of the techniques that I used to teach into my current program and my students seem quite pleased. I am an IPDTI and Military Combatives Instructor also and have found that the Military and Police personnel that we have trained have been very receptive and realize the practicallity of our techniques. If there is anything that you need please feel free to contact me.

Father Greek
State Director for Ohio


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am curious about the logic behind the choice however. If it is because of distance, then having to drive 100 more miles to a dojang should not be that big a deal.


If you mean for regular training each week, I wholeheartedly disagree.  A 200 mile round trip is _a very big _deal!!!!  If you work a day job, then that means over four hours of driving round trip, and then there's the fuel costs.  

If you mean for checking in with a senior once a or twice a month, then, I would agree to an extent.

Daniel


----------



## iron_ox

terrylamar said:


> Actually, it is a big deal. The distance is 150 miles to the closest city with Hapkido. That mileage is to San Antonio, not where Hapkido is taught within the city. 150 miles times two, I do have to get back. 300 miles per trip, figure five hours driving time for one training sessiion. 300 miles cost somewhere arround $40.00 in my F350 at current fuel prices. A few short months ago it was double that.
> 
> I teach classes Monday through Friday 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM, Saturday 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM. With those hours and that distance, I have not been able to find a Hapkido class. I did and do an extensive search, I have not given up finding a Hapkido class that I can attend, but the search seems fruitless.
> 
> My availible hours are, adjusting for drive times, 11:00 PM to 2:00 PM the next day. I drive to Austin every weekend, a four hour trip and don't arrive until after 5:00 PM on Saturday. I do have all day Sunday.
> 
> I had a lead on a school that held classes on the third Sunday of each month, sadly, that ended some time ago.
> 
> With my schedule and teaching commitments the only other live training I can attend will be seminars. That, I intend to do and not only Combat Hapkido seminars. So, I may see some of you at these seminars.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is not becasue of slick advertising. I am 52 years old and have been arround the block once or twice. I started taking Martial Arts, Judo, in the mid 70's while in the Marine Corps. The ICHF fits my needs. Despite the controversy, at least in some people's minds, Combat Hapkido I find to be a credible system. I, also, find that the ICHF fills my needs after a long conversation with GM Pellegrini.
> 
> I attended a seminar with GM P. back in 1989. Something, many, if not all of his distractors have not done. Since then, I went on to earn a Black Belt in a traditional style of Hapkido. I wish to progress, and I find the best way is through Combat Hapkido, supplemented by seminars.
> 
> 
> 
> There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is? My suggestion, is to hold what you have to say, until you have attended a seminar, afterwards, you will have more credibility.
> 
> Frankly, I'm tired of this thread and the direction it has gone. To me, it seems some people have agendas against Combat Hapkido, opinions formed without any first hand knowledge. Perhaps, instead of worrying about my motivations, you need to examine your own.



I will assume that most of this is directed at me, so _I _will respond.  First sir, I was trying to simply understand your motivations for choosing CH - not being critical.  My goal was to get an interesting thread back on topic - eg your interest in finding credible Hapkido.

Yes, I asked about travel.  I fly 9000 miles each way to train.  So, I do question peoples motives in regard to travel distance.

I think I said that it seems CH meets your needs - so good.  In addition, I also said it appears you did your own due diligence, that is very good.

Yes, I called it slick advertising - they have some of the best in the business - I have also seen some of the DVD's - but maybe the word slick is not as good as persuasive - lots of work has been put into that campaign.  Again, nothing negative, it just is what it is. 

I train in traditional Hapkido from its Founder.  I do not need to attend a seminar first hand to have an opinion.  After 30 years of training, I think I can form an opinion based on the first hand experienceI  have from some of his students and instructors - agian, not as people, but technically in their technique.  I feel quite confident to comment on his lineage and his actual training experience.  

Anyway, I actually don't have an agenda with this thread - my motivations were to find out your logic for picking CH. I do have an opinion about CH and Peligrini (from first hand experience), so if that came through as an agenda, sorry.  

Hope all works out for you.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you mean for regular training each week, I wholeheartedly disagree.  A 200 mile round trip is _a very big _deal!!!!  If you work a day job, then that means over four hours of driving round trip, and then there's the fuel costs.
> 
> If you mean for checking in with a senior once a or twice a month, then, I would agree to an extent.
> 
> Daniel



Hello Daniel,

I can only say that I guess it depends on your goals and expectations.  I would not "settle" for something that is not everything I want because it is close.  Although from the empassioned statement of Mr. Lamar, it sounds like proximity was not really the primary concern.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> Yet all the CHKD supporters say is take a seminar.
> 
> With that being said, I will happily attend a seminar if someone else is paying. There is one in my area in March.


Not being a CHKD supporter, I'll say this: You've stated how DVD instruction and such cannot communicate a technique, so you really can't fault them for saying to take the seminar before you judge.  

Given that they all attended at their own expense, it isn't unreasonable for them to assume that you'd do so at your own expense as well.

I still haven't had a chance to watch the vids that you posted following the CHKD vid, so I'll get back to you on that.

Daniel


----------



## Kumbajah

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not being a CHKD supporter, I'll say this: You've stated how DVD instruction and such cannot communicate a technique, so you really can't fault them for saying to take the seminar before you judge.
> 
> Given that they all attended at their own expense, it isn't unreasonable for them to assume that you'd do so at your own expense as well.
> 
> I still haven't had a chance to watch the vids that you posted following the CHKD vid, so I'll get back to you on that.
> 
> Daniel



I said you can't learn from a DVD. I practice traditional HKD. I can see what is going on. The one technique I began to comment on is one that is in our curriculum. The way that GM P does it, is the way that many people that I've taught do it initially. I have tweaked their in a way that is consistent with the way I learned. (Details explained in an earlier post.) I can explain why we do it the way that we do it. I'm just asking for the same sort of explanation because it seems contrary to everything I learned in Traditional hapkido. I am willing to have a discussion. I have also learned similar technique in Aikido - it's different but consistent with the "why" it works I learned in Hapkido. Weight shifts, footwork, posture, hip power generation etc. 

As for attending at my own expense - I have nothing to gain from the experience - either I'm right or wrong. If I'm right it cost me x amount to confirm what I already know (or think I know). If I'm wrong - I am happy with traditional hapkido so thats not going to change. So the only thing that would come out of it would I'd be willing to apologize if I was wrong. I'd reimburse the cost. "Yep, you were right here's the money"

As of yet I can't even get a discussion about it. If someone can explain why they do it the way they do and it seems plausible I'd be willing to investigate it first hand. Until then I'll have to believe my own lying eyes.


----------



## Drac

terrylamar said:


> There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is?


 
That's because people that have met and trained with GMP know that he is not PC...If you are acting like a know-it-all-jerk he will tell you..



terrylamar said:


> Frankly, I'm tired of this thread and the direction it has gone.


 
You aren't the only one..



terrylamar said:


> To me, it seems some people have agendas against Combat Hapkido, opinions formed without any first hand knowledge.


 
That's because its easier for folks to say that he's a jerk and his art is BS and to nit pick at his techniques..CH works for me...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kumbajah said:


> If you can't see any problem with his execution then I am glad that I took the time to comment  This partially the problem imo. If you seen it done correctly the difference is obvious imo. If you haven't ... well he might seem like he knows what he's doing.
> 
> Compare to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea who these people are but they do hapkido better than GM P. ( they're not "names" ) Take special note of the amount of steps they take per technique, their posture and using weight shifts to affect the attacker. The difference is obvious to me - if you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer.


Okay, I fresh from hapkido class and finally having watched the three videos back to back, along with the one on the Jin Pal home page.  Here are my thoughts:

GMP circles around his partner more than I see in our classes, but not to the degree that it is made to sound like from reading some of the posts here (not just yours).  His footwork is decidedly different from ours and from the two vids in the post quoted above.

The first vid in the above post looked more traditional, but it also involved a partner who executed an attack and stood frozen for a much longer time than an actual opponent would.  The gentlman executing the techniques did so beautifully, but took his time doing it.

The second vid in the above post looked more dynamic than either the one poated with it or GMP's, and while his footwork was different, he moved around every bit as much as GMP, he did some jumping around as well.  He had the flashiest looking hapkido of the three videos.  I did think that the guy thrashing around on the floor and tapping for ten seconds after he was pinned in almost every clip was a bit much.  If you've executed the technique and your partner taps, let him up.

GMP's footwork was, as I said above, decidedly different from the other vids, though I will refrain from judging that as good or bad, since I don't know the purpose behind it.  Strictly from an SD point of view, nothing in GMP's video was impractical or nonfunctional, and was decidedly non-flashy, no kicks above the waist and not a lot of hanging onto his partner once the technique had been executed.

The Jin Pal video is honestly the one that impressed me the most, as it had nice mix of flash and practical and displayed a lot of kicking (I do TKD, so of course I'm going to like nice kicks).  If your school was around the corner, I'd at least pay a visit.

None of the videos left me cold or sour.  I appreciated each of them for different reasons.  The only thing that I'll say about GMP is that his style is definitely _his_ style.  Once again, there was nothing in his three minute and eight second video that would make me turn around and walk out if I were watching it in a school setting.  

Lastly, I haven't seen enough of GMP to be a supporter or a detractor, and likewise, based on sub-three minute videos, I would likewise refrain from forming any definitive opinions of any of the people in the videos that I saw beyond what I stated above.

Daniel


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## Eric Deveau

crushing said:


> Is there a video to use as a comparison to the youtube video to which you linked earlier in the thread? A compare and contrast would be interesting.


 To use the "current" thread as a gauge does anyone see some things wrong / right with this technique??
Or maybe its just the camera angle or maybe the photographer OR????


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## Kumbajah

LOL! - I didn't that notice it until now. 

"Hapkido - more than a cheap thrill!"


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## yorkshirelad

terrylamar said:


> Will the ICHF still accept a Black Belt from another recognized organization to convert to a Dan in ICHF.
> 
> I remember this was so many years ago, but cannot find any information on their website.


This happens in other "legitimate" Hapkido kwan. I studied for a few years with Kwang Jang Nim Massan Ghorbani in Co Wicklow in Ireland. The guy is a phenominal Martial artist and now 9th Dan in Sin Moo Hapkido under Do Ju Nim Ji Han Jae. He was, however a 4 th Dan in Kyokushikai Karate when he met Do Ju Nim in '92 and after one meeting and one instructor seminar, he was promoted to 4th Dan, which is master rank immediatelt, along with most of the others in attendance.

I'm not saying that this is wrong. Who am I to question Do Ju Nim. I'm just saying that it happens across the board, to increase the instructor base.

What I like about GM Pelligrini is that he doesn't pretend to be all things to all people. He brings people in to his org, who have different specialties and offers their knowledge to the student base and gives credit for that knowledge to the instructor in question. This shows a real lack of ego. I hope to train under him in a seminar someday.


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## yorkshirelad

Eric Deveau said:


> To use the "current" thread as a gauge does anyone see some things wrong / right with this technique??
> Or maybe its just the camera angle or maybe the photographer OR????


The instructor has a smile on his face....who am I to judge?


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## yorkshirelad

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Realistically, if you have a good, solid understanding of body mechanics, there are only but so many ways to twist, lock, or grapple an opponent. There are only but so many ways to _actually _strike an opponent. Everything else is variation on existing themes. And I would think that a practitioner with nine years of hapkido under his or her belt would have a fairly solid, if not very solid grasp of that.
> 
> My guess is, and Terry can correct me if I'm wrong, that there really isn't anything new or revolutionary about combat hapkido, but rather it is the specific combination of techniques contained in the curriculum coupled with training with an emphasis on practical SD.
> 
> If one is already has a solid practical SD background, then once again, lessons learned from a DVD should not be difficult to apply. I do still maintain that if distance is an issue, as it is in this case, one should find the closest school of the appropriate style, whatever it is, and arrange to check in every few months for minor course corrections and objective in person feedback.
> 
> Daniel


I wholeheartedly agree with this post. An experienced martial artist, can watch a video and get a grasp of a technique or principle shown. I believe it's then possible to teach these methods rather quickly, sometimes on the same day. The methods that are conveyed from DVD may not be exactly the way the video instructor demonstrated, especially in the nuances, but as teachers, we are not painting by numbers. We are Martial "artists", we can fill in the blanks with our own logic.


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## bushido

Can you learn a new art from video?  I don't believe so, not a complex art, and not to proficiency anyway.
Can a black belt watch a video of his chosen art and work out a few new techs?  I would believe so. 
Even if the video instructor is not technically sound, you should be able to apply the proper principles of HKD (hwa, won, yue, centre of mass etc.) to the form and use it properly.  If a novice were to attempt the same, of course he could not do it properly, he just does not have knowledge of the underlying principles.
I could take a technique from a linear style, apply the principles of HKD to it, and do it "properly".  It will not look or be executed the same as the style I took it from, but it will be "correct".  Why?  Because I know how to move, where force is generated, how the body works and how to break it.
I was taught that as HapKiDoists, we are thieves.  If something works, if it works with proper body mechanics and can be explained medically and scientifically, we steal it.  If it looks like it works, but we cannot apply our form of movement to it, or it cannot be explained scientifically, we throw it away.
Personally, I watch all the videos I can find about all styles.  Why?  I teach.  It is my responsibility to know as much as possible about the fighting arts as I can.  To me, that means looking at everybody, rolling with who ever I can, and developing the proper communicative skills to pass to my students that which I have learned.
For those who do not believe in watching video to learn, try these exercises.
-Watch first with an open mind.  Is there anything here that is new to me?  Can it be adapted to my particular style.  Why would it be beneficial?
-Watch now with a critical mind.  What is being done wrong?  Why is it wrong, and how is it corrected?
-Try watching with out the sound.  I have found that the monologue or perhaps pitch can glaze over poor techniques.  You are taken in by the speech pattern or the explanation so much that you are not really paying attention to the form.  The opposite also stands to be true, alot of instructors are good at what they do, they can do a tech very well, but they do not have the ability to explain it verbally well to others.  His poor description of the process may be so bad that you dismiss him as no good, when he actually has much to teach.

OP is a black belt.  If his form of HKD is a solid one, he will know what is right or wrong.  He should be capable of applying what he knows to any technique.

Anyway, this being my first post on your forums, and as this is turning into a novel, I will let it go LOL.
BTW, hello to all!


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## Daniel Sullivan

Welcome Bushido, and thank you for such a thoughtful first post!

Daniel


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## Hapkidoman

Good luck with your training in ICHF, the material is excellent, and there are a lot of good practioners in the organization. The only draw back I see is that Black Belt Rank is easy to get, in most cases it does not take a school owner much more than attending a few seminars and of course a "Check". Unfortunatly this waters down the system I know of a few 4th Dan's that are not really much more qualified than a mid range color belt. I guess this is a pitfall of any large organization, that there are so many people that "fall through the cracks".


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## Daniel Sullivan

Hapkidoman said:


> Good luck with your training in ICHF, the material is excellent, and there are a lot of good practioners in the organization. The only draw back I see is that Black Belt Rank is easy to get, in most cases it does not take a school owner much more than attending a few seminars and of course a "Check". Unfortunatly this waters down the system I know of a few 4th Dan's that are not really much more qualified than a mid range color belt. I guess this is a pitfall of any large organization, that there are so many people that "fall through the cracks".


Probably more a pitfall of the video component in transmitting the art.  Terry Lamar, the OP, got into CHKD after spending years in hapkido.  I'm sure that there are a good number of people who had no HKD training who advanced via video and never received the kinds of hands on instruction in the material that a fourth dan of another art would probably have received.

This really doesn't reflect on the material so much as on the delivery mechanism.

Daniel


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## Devlin76

I have nothing to add about the Hapkido stuff since I have no experience in that area, but I did want to make a comment about one of the last posts regarding the ease of getting a black belt in the ICHF.  There is a lot of difference between schools and organizations concerning what a black belt represents.  In some schools I am familiar with, someone can get a black belt in less than two years with consistent training.  But in those schools being a black belt (at least just the first step shodan) only means you understand the principles, can execute the basic curriculum cleanly, and can train "hard" without getting hurt or hurting someone else accidently.  So in these kind of schools all serious training comes after hitting black belt.  In other schools earning your black belt means you have put in seven or eight years, and have nearly mastered 80% of the whole system.  For ICHF specifically, an inconsistency in quality of black belt practitioners could easily be related to the video tape curriculum.


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## Daniel Sullivan

terrylamar said:


> I did join the ICHF as a Charter School. I received my Package on Friday. The challenge is to now enroll adults into the program. I know a few are interested.


Hey Terry,

I know this goes back to 2008, though the thread remained pretty lively well into 2010.  How has CHKD worked out at your dojang?  An update would be most welcome.

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Hey Terry,
> 
> I know this goes back to 2008, though the thread remained pretty lively well into 2010.  How has CHKD worked out at your dojang?  An update would be most welcome.
> 
> Daniel



I'm not Terry, but my friend who was interested in learning some locks and throws to add to his curriculum is now a Combat Hapkido devotee.  As a TKD school owner, they're letting him test for 1st dan in CHKD when he is ready to undertake the examination.  He is pleased with the seminar opportunities and has already trained with Mr. Pelligrini twice.

He went with CHKD after we researched some other opportunities like judo, ITF hoshinul (not really a possibility for him) and standard hapkido.


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I'm not Terry, but my friend who was interested in learning some locks and throws to add to his curriculum is now a Combat Hapkido devotee. As a TKD school owner, they're letting him test for 1st dan in CHKD when he is ready to undertake the examination. He is pleased with the seminar opportunities and has already trained with Mr. Pelligrini twice.
> 
> He went with CHKD after we researched some other opportunities like judo, ITF hoshinul (not really a possibility for him) and standard hapkido.


I think I remember you posting about that some time back.  Glad to hear that he's found a working solution.

Daniel


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## dancingalone

I should add that my friend has implemented the yellow and orange belt levels of CHKD at his school at roughly 1-2 levels higher than the TKD rank.  Thus, a green belt (7th gup) starts learning the yellow belt material and it is practiced again at 6th gup.  The 5th gup and 4th gup students practice orange belt CHKD and so on.

I think CHKD is a fine add-on for TKD schools to enhance their SD offerings.  The material up to 1st dan seems a bit too basic to me, but that's just personal opinion.  I'd love to get a look at the higher dan material eventually.


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