# Why does



## terryl965 (Oct 30, 2007)

Ao many people believe that MMA is the best way to learn how to fight against a real fight? I mean it has rule's just like everything else? You sure are not going to beat the living crap out of your partners everyday or else you want have any? So with all of this in mind what makes it so GOD like to the masses?


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## JBrainard (Oct 30, 2007)

Because MMA is currently the most popular MA. That must mean it's the best, right?


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## terryl965 (Oct 30, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> Because the average person's exposure to MMA is via TV, which is the new opiate of the masses? :idunno:


 

I understand that, but where has it been proven to be the all to a real fight. To me it is a sport and with anything a sport has it good points and bad one's.


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## JBrainard (Oct 30, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> I understand that, but where has it been proven to be the all to a real fight. To me it is a sport and with anything a sport has it good points and bad one's.


 
People don't need proof. They like rhetoric. How many times have you heard the phrase "all fights go to the ground?" I hear people who know nothing about martial arts say it all of the time. I just sigh and walk away...


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## terryl965 (Oct 30, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> People don't need proof. They like rhetoric. How many times have you heard the phrase "all fights go to the ground?" I hear people who know nothing about martial arts say it all of the time. I just sigh and walk away...


 
I would have to agree with you.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 30, 2007)

It hasn't been 'proven' in the way that we (traditionally trained MA's) would normally think of it.  

But people see fairly aggressive looking 'wrestling' mixed with 'boxing' and 'kung fu' on the tele and willingly accept the indoctrination that it must be the bestest fighting art because these MMA chaps keep winning the fights.

They don't see that it's not really a 'fight' but more a highly physical 'contest'.  They have no exposure to the moves that make the difference between a 'fight' and a 'contest' and thus have no yardstick to judge by.

EDIT: Regarding the 'all fights go to the ground' conception, I'm assuming that this has come about because in the MMA that I've watched that's what normally seems to happen?  As I noted above, I'm sure that peoples views would change if they saw the evade-take-break-finish type moves that would be used by a MA if things were really going badly South in a real life altercation.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2007)

We've seen this before though with other MAs, JKD when Bruce Lee around, Kung Fu from the tv, kickboxing. Each of these was the 'ultimate' self defence techniques and each of these has engendered arguments about which is the best! the best thing to do is just shrug and say 'whatever' in that annoying was teenagers do lol!


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## Sukerkin (Oct 30, 2007)

Good point, *Tez* and good to have a voice in the thread who knows what MMA is like better than most of us - and I heartily endorse your last words there .


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## newGuy12 (Oct 30, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> EDIT: Regarding the 'all fights go to the ground' conception, I'm assuming that this has come about because in the MMA that I've watched that's what normally seems to happen?  As I noted above, I'm sure that peoples views would change if they saw the evade-take-break-finish type moves that would be used by a MA if things were really going badly South in a real life altercation.



This interests me, and I would like to see what others think about it, the idea that "all fights go to the ground".  Surely MOST fights go to the ground, IF one or both of the fighters are grapplers, and they can "have their way" about it.

The grapplers have shown that they dominate in these "cage fighting" contests, haven't they?  So, with the rules of the MMA events, they have shown a level of superiority (one on one, not multiple opponents, and so on).  I mean, that is what made such a reputation for BJJ, right?  

Yeah, and its good that a MMA person has joined this thread, thanks Tez3.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2007)

First you should all know

Police/Miltary *SANDA* is the *GREATEST* martial art *OF ALL TIME.*

*And if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you*



terryl965 said:


> Ao many people believe that MMA is the best way to learn how to fight against a real fight? I mean it has rule's just like everything else? You sure are not going to beat the living crap out of your partners everyday or else you want have any? So with all of this in mind what makes it so GOD like to the masses?


 
I too have a question, why are we starting this again?  We have been through it and through it and through it multiple times and it ALWAYS ends the same..... With another post about the same thing and it never solves anything.

I have talked with several MMA people (I am a TCMA guy for those that do not know me) in person and they are all quite nice and quite effective at what they do and are open to just about any martial art that can help them achieve their goal. I even talked to one that was training Qigong because he thought it helped I also talked with a Taiji guy that went to train MMA and he said that he was learning a lot abut fighting and the MMA guys loved to spare with him because they had never come across someone that rooted so well and they had trouble taking him down.

Also the average TMA I come across can't fight his way out of a paper bag these days. But if you judge all by that you WILL get hurt because some are really really good at fighting. But both MMA and TMA have to understand there is a WORLD of difference between sparing in a school on a nice flat floor in an air conditioned room with your teacher watching and a real live fight outside in who knows what. And there is a world of difference between fighting on a nice flat surface wearing a pair of gloves with certain rules to adhere to with a ref standing by than an actual knock down no holds barred street fight. 

Can't we all just get along, bottom-line, we are all martial artists.


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2007)

Whenever younger officers ask about MMA because they are considering getting into the amature level..I tell them that they better have a *serious *working knowledge of boxing, Judo, karate, BJJ before they attempt to get in the cage..


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 30, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Ao many people believe that MMA is the best way to learn how to fight against a real fight? I mean it has rule's just like everything else? You sure are not going to beat the living crap out of your partners everyday or else you want have any? So with all of this in mind what makes it so GOD like to the masses?




In the 60's it was Judo.

In the 70's Karate and TKD and TSD - full contact sparring

In the 80's the Sparring kids who sparred in the late 70's were still using pads and light contact. The point games became real popular. Also the eclectic arts were popular amny of them using weapons. 

In the early 90's it was BJJ and others that grappled

In the 00's we see a return to stand up and good defense against the ground or grappling games. 


In the 70's there was the JKA (* Judo Karate schools of America *) in South East Michigan. These guys had Shito Ryu Karate for kicking and hard blocks and strikes. They had Judo for take downs, they also have JuJitsu for ground work on top of the Judo. They also had Muay Thai. 

Yep I said it, these guys did it all in all ranges (* they covered weapons in their self defense courses - maybe not to level of a FMA or Taijitsu but they tried *) in the early to mid and even into the late 70's before no one wanted to spar with them or train as it hurt too much. 

I know of some guys who came out of this group. They are hard nosed, have to knock them out types when they fight, and yet, they have control and will work with others and have stated to me, that as the senior on the matts for they they are teaching or showing it is their responisbility to make sure they other guy does not hurt themselves. They are also very injured and have the medical records to show it. 


So why does MMA seem to be the best? 

I do not know. I like to watch it. I train in ranges, but am not a proficient ground person, and recognize that and train to stay up. But that is me. Others like to go to the ground. Hmmm, note the people winning some stand up and others go to the ground. 

I think it is a place for guys to go "Fight" and have some rules for "Safety" and to allow them to kick and punch and grapple and not be as limited as some other events. 

But the media has it. The fans have it. Heck why was Big Time Wrestiling so popular? I do not know, but it was.


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Heck why was Big Time Wrestiling so popular? I do not know, but it was.


 
[*off topic post*] Pure entertainment...I loved it...


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## JBrainard (Oct 30, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> This interests me, and I would like to see what others think about it, the idea that "all fights go to the ground". Surely MOST fights go to the ground, IF one or both of the fighters are grapplers, and they can "have their way" about it.
> 
> The grapplers have shown that they dominate in these "cage fighting" contests, haven't they? So, with the rules of the MMA events, they have shown a level of superiority (one on one, not multiple opponents, and so on). I mean, that is what made such a reputation for BJJ, right?
> 
> Yeah, and its good that a MMA person has joined this thread, thanks Tez3.


 
Out in the real world I think that the best approach would be to not let your attacker "get into thier game." If you are fighting a stand up fighter, take it to the ground. If you are fighting a grappler, stay on your feet. Just make sure to be well versed in both "ranges" of fighting, cuz' you never know what's going to hit you.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2007)

Ah this thread is going in a very sensible and common sensical way!

I wouldn't say all MMA fights go to the ground, if you are good at stand up and you are fighting someone who's a known grappler keeping it stood up is the best way to go. I've seen several fights stay ip or ended before they've gone to the floor. Going to the floor in a 'real' fight isn't always such a good idea as everyone knows.

MMA best? Yes, for MMA.


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Going to the floor in a 'real' fight isn't always such a good idea as everyone knows.


 
That's what I tell my officers...I you have too, you have too..But *NEVER *do it by choice...........


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## newGuy12 (Oct 30, 2007)

Drac said:


> That's what I tell my officers...I you have too, you have too..But *NEVER *do it by choice...........



I would avoid it at all costs.  Gives me pain to just think about it!


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## Kreth (Oct 30, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> I would avoid it at all costs. Gives me pain to just think about it!


But at a bare minimum, you should know enough ground technique to be able to regain your feet if you fall or are taken down.


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> But at a bare minimum, you should know enough ground technique to be able to regain your feet if you fall or are taken down.


 
Yes..We do teach ground techniques..


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## searcher (Oct 30, 2007)

Trying to stick with the why of Terry's OP, I think that the reason everyone has clung on to it is, in part, the blood lust that leads people to be a gawker at a car wreck.   They all want to see someone get hurt in a very bad way, so they cling to the T.V. in hopes of seeing such.    Another part is that it is the closest to a street fight that many will come without having to get near the fight itself.   They would be risking getting pulled in, even if they were only spectators.

In the early years it was hyped up for being true NHB, even though they still had rules(biting and eye-gouging).   Though now they have weight classes and more rules I feel that people are still in the mind-set of it being no rules.   JMO.


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## CoryKS (Oct 30, 2007)

I think the MMAs are seen as having a bigger toolbox with many tools to choose from.  Which is a good thing, if you need lots of tools.  I don't have enough information to say whether particular scenarios are likely to arise in a SD situation, so I'll defer judgement on which ones are necessary.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> But at a bare minimum, you should know enough ground technique to be able to regain your feet if you fall or are taken down.


Right!  It cannot always surely be avoided! I have to learn some of these ground ways!  Just in case!  The only thing I am confident in is to be able to fall without injury, that's it.  And that is not enough.


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## terryl965 (Oct 30, 2007)

*too have a question, why are we starting this again?  We have been through it and through it and through it multiple times and it ALWAYS ends the same..... With another post about the same thing and it never solves anything.
*
_Xue I was not trying to start my Art is better or is MMA the best, What I was getting at is why does the general public believe this to be the best Art out there. I believe we must all learn to evolve over the year to makes us better, but everytime something goes on TV then it is the best in the public eye. Why is this for that matter why was Kung Fu the best or JKD. I just happened to pick MMA. Sorry was not trying to stir the pot.
_


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> *too have a question, why are we starting this again?  We have been through it and through it and through it multiple times and it ALWAYS ends the same..... With another post about the same thing and it never solves anything.*
> 
> _Xue I was not trying to start my Art is better or is MMA the best, What I was getting at is why does the general public believe this to be the best Art out there. I believe we must all learn to evolve over the year to makes us better, but everytime something goes on TV then it is the best in the public eye. Why is this for that matter why was Kung Fu the best or JKD. I just happened to pick MMA. Sorry was not trying to stir the pot._


 
Sorry :asian: I tend to look at all of these as trouble waiting to happen.

Why does the general public think that MMA is the best art out there? Because it is on TV. The same reason someone thinks a Buick is better than a Chevy. The General public is not made up of martial artists and they, for the most part believe what they see and hear on TV. 

Why was JKD thought of as better? Bruce Lee and the movies.

Why was TKD the best? It was an Olympic sport and it too was in the public eye.

Why do people buy Cheerios instead of oat O's? They don't advertise Oat O's on TV. 

Don't let it get to you, give it time and it will change. 
One final thing

Why is SANDA the Best?  Because I say so  :EG: :mst:


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## Kreth (Oct 30, 2007)

The general public doesn't realize that the fighters they see in UFC or Bodog Fight put in insane hours of training to reach that level of skill. 
Is a trained MMA practitioner effective? Of course.
Is MMA "teh D34dly"? Ask the fanboy who thought it would be fun to try a double-leg on the bouncer when he was asked to leave, then promptly knocked himself out on my knee.


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## thardey (Oct 30, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> EDIT: Regarding the 'all fights go to the ground' conception, I'm assuming that this has come about because in the MMA that I've watched that's what normally seems to happen?  As I noted above, I'm sure that peoples views would change if they saw the evade-take-break-finish type moves that would be used by a MA if things were really going badly South in a real life altercation.



It was a long time ago, so I can't back this up, but right at the beginning of the Cage Fighting bit, the "XX% of fights (60-90% depending) go to the ground" bit was cited as referenced from some study by some self-defense group. Then another group came out and "clarified" that the "going to the ground" included either combatant falling down. (Aka, knock-out or knock-down). So you could say that a large amount of Boxing matches go to the ground, since at least one of the competitors often falls at least once during the bout.

But this was water cooler talk, so I don't know how much stock you want to put in it. (I think it may have also been in BB magazine, so you can decide what stock you want to put in that.)


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> The general public doesn't realize that the fighters they see in UFC or Bodog Fight put in insane hours of training to reach that level of skill.


 
Not to mention all the hours in the gym along with the insane hours of training....


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Ask the fanboy who thought it would be fun to try a double-leg on the bouncer when he was asked to leave, then promptly knocked himself out on my knee.


 
oooo that had to hurt :erg:...... him


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## Kreth (Oct 30, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> oooo that had to hurt :erg:...... him


Well, my knee was a bit sore the next day... :lol:


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## Drac (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Well, my knee was a bit sore the next day... :lol:


 
LOL....


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Well, my knee was a bit sore the next day... :lol:


 
:lol: :rofl:


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## CoryKS (Oct 30, 2007)

Kreth said:


> The general public doesn't realize that the fighters they see in UFC or Bodog Fight put in insane hours of training to reach that level of skill.


 
Ain't that the truth.  SI did a big article about MMA in an issue this year and the response, even from sports enthusiasts, was unbelievably negative, calling it human cockfighting.



Kreth said:


> Is a trained MMA practitioner effective? Of course.
> Is MMA "teh D34dly"? Ask the fanboy who thought it would be fun to try a double-leg on the bouncer when he was asked to leave, then promptly knocked himself out on my knee.


 
HA-ha! 
/Nelson


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 30, 2007)

Simply because people belief's are based on the slanted exposure given to them by the culture and media around them

Just like everything else.

I'm a musician.  If you don't live within the life of a musician than pretty much anything you know about the life of a musician from movies and tv is wrong.

I'm a computer programmer.  If you are not a programmer than what you know about programmer's, geeks, hackers, and admins from movies and tvs is wrong.

Sorry but the media is there to entertain you, not inform you.  What you know and learn from such entertainment about subcultures that are not your own is pretty much wrong

Martial Arts is no different


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## still learning (Oct 30, 2007)

Hello, Mix martial arts...HAS RULES...and if you take away the rules?

Many of the fights would be different?

No biting , NO eye gouging, NO one is allow to make an actual break, No throats strikes, and NO neck breaking,  so with rules....(to protect the fighters) ...is a must and MMA"S are for entertainment only!

Most street fights will not be the same nor end the same way.....many times one quick punch...and it ends right there!

If you can catch the hand and break the "thumb" it will end right there?

Rules changes the fighting skills or level.....take away the rules....then you will know what works for real?

Watch how many MMA get hit in the groin and they have to stop the fight for awhile or poke in the eye by accident....

MMA watch and learn....use it as a guide....JUST MY THOUGHTS ON THIS.........Aloha


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## meth18au (Oct 31, 2007)

FearlessFreep said:


> Sorry but the media is there to entertain you, not inform you.  What you know and learn from such entertainment about subcultures that are not your own is pretty much wrong
> 
> Martial Arts is no different




Before I started my journey in martial arts, I remember being under the impression that I would be able to harness my Chi into a ball and throw it at my enemies  (a.k.a Kamehameha - DragonBall Z).  Well I was only a teenager at the time!!!  Oh yeah and I remember trying to fly from my rooftop to my neighbors after watching Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon for the first time.  Very painful....

LOL

:lol2:


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Ao many people believe that MMA is the best way to learn how to fight against a real fight? I mean it has rule's just like everything else? You sure are not going to beat the living crap out of your partners everyday or else you want have any? So with all of this in mind what makes it so GOD like to the masses?


 

Its really no different than the kickboxing craze and the Ninja craze.  If/when something else pops up, I'm sure it'll be the same with that.  Despite what some will say, everything has its strong/weak points.  The problem lies when people can't see that.  Arts that address everything are few and far between.  Usually its a number of arts coupled together.  

I will admit though and speaking only for myself, but I credit the UFC/MMA for some of the changes I have personally made in my training.  No, I don't bust my tail for hours on end like Randy and Chuck, but I've certainly taken ideas from the way those people train.


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't say all MMA fights go to the ground, if you are good at stand up and you are fighting someone who's a known grappler keeping it stood up is the best way to go. I've seen several fights stay ip or ended before they've gone to the floor. Going to the floor in a 'real' fight isn't always such a good idea as everyone knows.
> 
> MMA best? Yes, for MMA.


 
I can't disagree with this.  Case in point...Chuck Liddell.  Now, while he may have a grappling background, his fights are won standing.


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

Kreth said:


> But at a bare minimum, you should know enough ground technique to be able to regain your feet if you fall or are taken down.


 

I couldnt agree more!  IMHO, I think that this is one main thing that opened the eyes of people when the UFC first was born...the importance of ground skill.


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Well, my knee was a bit sore the next day... :lol:


 
Certainly a valid technique, although there are some that'll argue, putting the knee strike into the same category as elbows to the spine.  However, in this case, it looks like the knee worked wonders.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 31, 2007)

The intensity of the training of a good MMA fighter is scary. The intensity of a good point fighter I doubt comes close.
Learning what to do if taken down and how to get out of a lock or get back to your feet is needed by many But to think you can go to the ground in the street is a little foolish


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## Kreth (Oct 31, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> But to think you can go to the ground in the street is a little foolish


I've done it when bouncing. Strictly speaking, your authority as a bouncer ends at the door, but in a few cases I've had to take down and restrain morons to keep them from re-entering the bar, or because they attacked me or one of my bouncers when we got them outside. Having said that, I would only do it in a situation where I had no other choice, and preferably with backup.
The local LEOs appreciated the fact that all they had to do was roll up and slap the cuffs on. A few of the guys on night shift would roll up, see me with some idiot pinned down, shake their head, and ask, "Trespassing or Assault?" :lol:


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## newGuy12 (Oct 31, 2007)

MJS said:


> Certainly a valid technique, although there are some that'll argue, putting the knee strike into the same category as elbows to the spine.  However, in this case, it looks like the knee worked wonders.







Whoa!


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 31, 2007)

Kreth said:


> I've done it when bouncing. Strictly speaking, your authority as a bouncer ends at the door, but in a few cases I've had to take down and restrain morons to keep them from re-entering the bar, or because they attacked me or one of my bouncers when we got them outside. Having said that, I would only do it in a situation where I had no other choice, and preferably with backup.
> The local LEOs appreciated the fact that all they had to do was roll up and slap the cuffs on. A few of the guys on night shift would roll up, see me with some idiot pinned down, shake their head, and ask, "Trespassing or Assault?" :lol:



I agree about this Kreth. I have done it in my past and not something I liked when I did not have backup or lots of help. Some my worst times was on the ground and getting scared, and people getting really hurt becuase I was scared and wanted back on my feet. 

I did help a LEO once on the ground. I asked him first, andmade sure he wanted contact help and not me to call for more help or back-up.


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