# Where is hapkido heading?



## lhise (Feb 21, 2009)

I have seen a re-occurring topic of discussion relating to Hapkido on many different martial arts forums concerning how hapkido is being infused into other arts, and as a result, many feel that hapkido is becoming watered down so much that many fear that traditional Hapkido may not be identifiable at some point in time.  
Along with some schools adding hapkido techniques to another art as part of their self-defense curriculum, there have been some who have developed a new system of hapkido for marketing purposes.  They discard many hapkido techniques (what do the pioneers of hapkido know anyway, right.) resulting in a continued watering down process,and offer their new version to schools for charter membership and instructor certification based on the schools ability to learn from DVDs or attending a seminar.  
My question to everyone is this.  Do you feel that the large traditional Hapkido associations that exist today are doing enough to promote, educate, and unify Hapkido schools and practitioners in order to maintain the integrity of the art?  
If you belong to a Hapkido association, are they helping to satisfy your goals either as a school owner or student?  If you were looking for a Hapkido association, what would be your primary concerns and/or reasons to join?  What would be your expectations?  
Are politics and/or egos standing the way of a strong organization?
The ATA has done an excellent job of bringing unity to Tae Kwon Do here in the USA.  Would you welcome an organization that did as much for Hapkido?  Or, are we on a slippery slope to the next self-promoted 9th degree black belt giving hapkido yet another adjective in front of the name.
Tell me your thoughts.


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## Drac (Feb 21, 2009)

Where is Hapkido heading?? Nowhere if we don't stop fighting among ourselves..


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## exile (Feb 21, 2009)

lhise said:


> *The ATA has done an excellent job of bringing unity to Tae Kwon Do here in the USA*.  Would you welcome an organization that did as much for Hapkido?



?? _Unity??_

I suggest you use the search function to look through the archives for discussions of ATA; you'll find plenty of grounds for revising your opinions of whether or not ATA has 'brought unity' to TKD in the US. The vast majority of dojangs are KKW/WTF affiliated; there are some ITF schools as well, with the usual friction and mutual denial between the two sides, and it's very common for practitioners from _both_ groups to dump on the ATA. I don't have a horse in this race myself&#8212;I'm not saying anything at all about the quality of ATA training; I'm in no position to&#8212;but one thing I think you'll find is that a goodly number of TKD practitioners on MT, the great majority I'd guess, are going to dissent vigorously from your view of the ATA as a unifying force, or even much of a force at all. I don't think you want an ATA-like association for Hapkido, if unity is your objective! 

Now that I think of it, the material I've quoted from your post represents an even stranger way of putting things than I at first realized. The ATA has introduced a completely novel set of forms, with copyright on them, and you simply cannot use them in your school unless you're part of the ATA network, as I understand it&#8212;they defend their rights over those forms quite aggressively. You're saying a HKD organization which does something similar with its drill patterns, say, is going to be a _unifying_ force? How do you make _that_ out??


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 21, 2009)

Quick overview of Hapkido. It came from Aikijujitsu, as did Aikido and Jujitsu. How many variations of those disciplines are there? Quite a few and still growing. But now to focus on Hapkido. Just what is real(?) Hapkido and just what is the real defining curriculum, that people say is being watered down? Ji is credited with changing/adding to what Choi was teaching and Choi in turn did similar to what he learned via Aikijujitsu. To me the basic core of Hapkido is it's joint locks and throws. How one gets to those elements, shapes the particular style being studied, but it all should come out the same in the end. It's hard for me to understand how something can be watered down if it can't be correctly formulated in the first palce.


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## iron_ox (Feb 22, 2009)

Hello,

My opinion is that the issue is really one about honesty.  I think that for years, many of those in a position to know otherwise have simply lied about Hapkido and their own standing in the art.

Choi Yong Sul, Dojunim, is the root of all the variations, offshoots, and the basis for most of the "self-defense" techniques found in many arts that have come out of Korea since 1950.

Choi Dojunim died in 1986 - that was only 23 years ago, and in that time a plethora of Korean and non-Koreans have elevated themselves in an art that they don't actually seem to have much standing in at all.

There were 4 men that were awarded 9th dan from Choi Dojunim, one is dead, one is in apparent seclusion in New York City (Chang, Chin Il, Dojunim), one teaches Hapkiyusul - an adaptation of Choi Dojunim's teachings,Grandmaster Kim Yun Sang; and one teaches Hapkido in Daegu City, Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo.

There is no large organization that can boast membership of any of these men, who are the three single highest authorities of Hapkido.  People get annoyed when they are caught not being honest about standing and call it infighting etc, and I do understand how being told that one's instructor may infact not be (in one well known case) a 10th Dan amy seem like infighting - but I believe we owe it to the art to start to be a little more honest about the standing that people claim.

I think that in the case of MOST of the variants that people know up front what they are getting - but when someone claims to be an "X" rank in "Hapkido" - they should be able to prove their rank - and if it came from one of the "larger" ranking organizations, people should be made aware that the founders of these groups were generally 6th Dan or less in the mainline of the art.  I believe that as long as people understand this it is quite fair if they are given full disclosure as to what they actually be getting.

The main issue to me is that most people have never actually seen mainline Hapkido, and assume that it is loaded with acrobatics, high kicks and giant circular throws - when this is far from the truth...I am often amazed that the Three Principles of the art are quoted by thiose that then demonstrate flying side kicks...

Then there is the call to "modernize" and "adapt" the art - again, the founder died a scant 23 years ago - things are not that differnt now then they were then...the relity is that those that make these calls usually simply have never LEARNED the original material - which is a shame - then try to modify things that they believe are Hapkido.

Hapkido - Mainline Hapkido - is still alive and well - it may be a challenge to find it and train in it - but I am confident that the mainline art is in many good hands and will continue to be available to anyone that seeks it out.


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## lhise (Feb 22, 2009)

http://worldhapkidoalliance.com/g__m___park_sung_jae

Hmmm.  Who was Master PARK Sung Jae, and was he part of the Choi line?


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## lhise (Feb 22, 2009)

Was Choi the *only *Korean to learn Aki jujitsu from a Japanese during the time he would have learned the art?  It is possible that there may have been other martial artist exposed to this art.

From http://worldhapkidoalliance.com/g__m___park_sung_jae:



> Look at the historical backdrop that was Korea from the beginning of the twentieth century until the mid-twentieth century.  Bear in mind that during 1909 to 1945, Japan ruled Korea treating it as a colony.  Japan forced the Korean people to adopt the Japanese culture in every way . language, arts, architecture, *martial arts* and so on.  The Japanese martial arts that dominated that era was Judo, Kendo, and Aki Jujitsu.  Koreans were not allowed to train in their own martial arts unless it was underground.
> 
> We should also remember that schools of martial arts at that time were not following the standards we are accustomed to today. There was not a defined curriculum.  The sequence of learning followed what the teacher considered important at that time.  There was a climate of war and not every lesson was learned in academies.  Many skills were passed on by the family and there was not a graduation standard.


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## iron_ox (Feb 22, 2009)

lhise said:


> Hmmm.  Who was Master PARK Sung Jae, and was he part of the Choi line?



Are you affiliated with him?  Reading his bio, I would have to say that if he has no connection to Choi Dojunim, he is not a Hapkido Master...but of course, he eventually "merges" with Choi Dojunim...another case of rewriting history to fill his requirement I fear...

I will check though this year in Korea...


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## iron_ox (Feb 22, 2009)

lhise said:


> Was Choi the *only *Korean to learn Aki jujitsu from a Japanese during the time he would have learned the art?  It is possible that there may have been other martial artist exposed to this art.
> 
> *NO, the only other was Jang Im Mok, that is recorded in Aikijusitsu books.  Whatever Choi Dojunim did learn was singularly very powerful...and no one else taught what he taught...*
> 
> ...



Again, not true, Choi Dojunim taught a very similar curriculum his whole life...if it is a family skill outside of his teaching, it is not Hapkido...


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## iron_ox (Feb 22, 2009)

Sorry Mr. Hise, 

I missed to link to Park Sung Jae listing you...so this is all really just a set up for an ad...right?

Shame really, thought you cared, not just had an axe to grind from another storyteller...

Update:  Went again to check - your posts are just cut and paste from Park Sung Jae's website..wow, really got drawn into this one...would this be considered trolling?

What parts of this webpage are you going to quote next?


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## iron_ox (Feb 22, 2009)

Mr Hise,

Here is your post to another forum on June 5, 2008:

"I am a 2nd degree black belt in Hapki-do. I trained in Korea under Grand Master Park Sung Jae. Grand Master Park Sung Jae trained under Myung Jae Nam who trained under and with Ji Han Jae. Ji Han Jae trained under Choi until further developing Hapki-do as we know it today, along with Myung Jae Nam.
     My instructor Grand Master Park Sung Jae moved to Brazil in 1971 to introduce Hapki-do to the Brazilians under the direction of the Korean Hapki-do Federation.
     Grand Master Park is coming to the States this year to once again re-unite with me and Dr Rodney Hard, who also trained under Grand Master Park in Korea. This re-uniting with Grand Master Park will be a special event, as we have not seen Grand Master Park in over thiry years. It will also be a time for long overdue belt testing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




     Hapki-do is a highly developed martial art system that is very effective in real self-defense situations. However, there is a spiritual side of Hapki-do that is often lost in the USA schools."



martial-arts-info.com


Big change now...


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## Jinmukwan (Feb 23, 2009)

Where is Hapkido heading has been a question that people have been asking for years and there are no easy answers!  Even those with high rank are not always truthful about how they got there!  As far as Choi Doju Nim is concerned 9th dan was not a rank to show great skill but one of spreading the art!  There are many of Choi's students who are as proficiant in Hapkido as those with a piece of paper that says 9th dan.  It really does not mean much.


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## matt.m (Feb 24, 2009)

I don't know how Won, Kwang-Wha always gets left out of the ninth dan under Choi equation. Oh yeah, he was only Suh bok sub's dads bodyguard. Kind of a big deal since the guy was a congressman. But oh well. Everything I heard of the man denotes that even though he was a Kwan founder in Korea Moo Sool Kwan he wasn't a glory hound. He just wanted to train. So out of Ji Han Jae, Bong Soo Han, as well as the original Kwan founders in the 50's he just trained and didn't seek attention.

To me hapkido goes where you want it to.....I mean if you are happy training with the org, group, and folks in the school that you see regularly and train hard and daily then in the end who cares.  The same philosophy has kept my pop in MSK:HKD since 1973 and GM Charles Hildebrand since 1967.  So it is good enough for me.  Plus I have always found that if you can't solve micro problems then how are you gonna solve a macro problem.  So if you aren't training to your fullest then how the world can you expect the world of hapkido to train to its fullest?


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## zDom (Feb 24, 2009)

Yea it is funny how Won, Kwang-Wha always seems to get left off the list of "important" hapkido masters.

Been to Wikipedia lately Matt? SOMEONE even _*REMOVED*_ Won, Kwang-Wha from the hapkido entry there. He WAS on there (I have a copy of the page before it was vandalized..er "edited").

Anyway, to address the OP's topic:

I believe the different styles of hapkido are going to continue to DIVERGE, not come together under one organization.

Saying you study "hapkido" is about as specific as saying you study karate or kung fu &#8212; what KIND of karate? What KIND of kung fu?

And what KIND of hapkido?

And frankly, I couldn't care less anymore about other offshoots.

On one hand, you have some who are watering it down to the point where is is a mockery of what I consider to be real hapkido.

And on the other hand, you have some who claim only THEIR style is "legitimate" because of lineage and the rank those at the top of that lineage hold/held.

I won't point fingers at who I think are in either category. That's not my business. My business is in doing the best I can to master the style of hapkido I am studying with the goal of not watering it down either in the way I practice or in the way I pass it on.

But just for the record, again: IMO, CHOI never taught hapkido. EVER. 

IMO hapkido didn't become hapkido until Choi's students mixed in other elements &#8212; including the dynamic kicking (such as that researched and developed by Ji Han Jae and Kim, Moo hyung).

Each student, apparently, took something just a little bit different from Choi and mixed in a variety of different other "ingredients."

Without Choi's critical ingredients, it isn't hapkido. But using ONLY Choi's ingredients isn't hapkido, either.

In conclusion, how can you hope to unify what was from its very inception a variety of styles? And why would you want to?


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## searcher (Feb 24, 2009)

It is heading out of my future at a rapid rate, due to only finding a less than satisfactory instructor.

I wish I lived closer to St. Louis, I would go train with Matt and Scott.


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## matt.m (Feb 24, 2009)

Scott is correct. What is funny is that so many people revere He-Young Kimm as a hapkidoan.  Kimm claims his instructor as being Won,Kwang-Wha.  So why indeed did he get wiped from wikipedia.com.

It is widely known that out of the 3808 techniques that Choi had learned he taught all of his original students a little differently to play to the students strengths. Choi even said so in his 1982 interview in the United States. So to ask is Sin Moo, Jungki, Moo Sul Kwan (America), Moo Sool Kwan (Korea), Bong Soo Han, or Kwang Sik Myung's hapkido better? Who knows and who cares. The object is to become the best hapkidoan you can be in your style of techniques. Do your instructors and school the honor of doing the best you can do.

I work out with one of J.R. West's 1st dan's name James Williams. James has a hapkido style that is decidely different than Moo Sul Kwan. This doesn't mean that he has "Weak" hapkido. Not at all, what it means is his techniques are different in application and philosophy.


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## exile (Feb 24, 2009)

zDom said:


> I believe the different styles of hapkido are going to continue to DIVERGE, not come together under one organization.... how can you hope to unify what was from its very inception a variety of styles? And why would you want to?



Hear, hear, Scott!

This can never be repeated enough: 'unity' in the MAs is virtually always imposed as a top-down policy by national governments. It doesn't reflect the nature of the MAs, left to their own devices, as practiced by ordinary people for basic self-protection.  

Does there need to be an enforced standard of how to make an omelette? Why on earth would anyone want that? Should there be exactly one blueprint for motorcycles or pole lamps or wristwatches? How much credibility would accrue to a suggestion that in the interests of 'unity', all buildings dedicated to a given purpose should look exactly the same?

But in the KMAs, we find this kind of attitude pushed as the default. _Of course, unity is better for the art, so..._ My question is, how the hell is it better for the art? Are the FMAs, JMAs or CMAs hurting because they exist in dozens (and the case of China, hundreds) of local styles? Does TKDwhich the Korean 'directorate' has been laboring for decades to turn into a completely standardized brand as much alike from place to place as two Holiday Inn rooms in different cities areenjoy greater credibility than, say, Okinawan karate as an effective combat style? Why on earth would anyone want an imposed unity, when the proven way to develop genuinely effective methods of doing _anything_ is to allow alternatives to compete, and may the best approach/hypothesis/method win?

Hapkido is very lucky that there is no government bureaucracy trying to stamp out the diverse development of the art in the interest of imposing a global monopoly on techniques and curricula. Long may that be trueand would that it were true for _all_ the KMAs!


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 24, 2009)

HUH?!!:uhohh:..................Yeah!, What Exile said.................

Why does my head hurt sooooooo much?!!!....:vu:

:caffeine::lfao:...................


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## howard (Feb 25, 2009)

zDom said:


> Been to Wikipedia lately Matt? SOMEONE even _*REMOVED*_ Won, Kwang-Wha from the hapkido entry there. He WAS on there (I have a copy of the page before it was vandalized..er "edited").



To Scott and Matt,

You can always go into the Wiki article and edit it yourselves to replace the information about Won Kwang Wha. I went into the page last night and was able to access it for editing without a problem (even though I didn't change anything).

If you all have reliable information about this gentleman, I think you'd be doing us all a favor by putting it back on Wiki's hapkido page.


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## zDom (Feb 26, 2009)

howard said:


> To Scott and Matt,
> 
> You can always go into the Wiki article and edit it yourselves to replace the information about Won Kwang Wha. I went into the page last night and was able to access it for editing without a problem (even though I didn't change anything).
> 
> If you all have reliable information about this gentleman, I think you'd be doing us all a favor by putting it back on Wiki's hapkido page.



When I get a free moment, I guess I'll do that dig up and copy-and-paste from the version I saved.

I just hope it doesn't become a back-and-forth of us reposting and the Mystery Person deleting it (for God knows what reason...) ad nauseum.


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## hapkidonet (Mar 14, 2009)

I think there has been a revolution in mindset in the last thirty years in which cross-training in different arts has become normal and accepted. This has got to have a profound effect on the development of martial arts. You can call it watering down, but everything changes in time.


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## bushido (May 3, 2009)

The state of HKD is falling apart.  For every 1 good school, there are 4 ******** schools.  Come on, how many 8th and 9th dans are there?  'ell, I even see 10's all over the place.  I recently went to a TKD school that advertised TKD, HKD and yudo.  Was supposed to be 10th (not even 30 yrs old) and did not even understand the construction of the bodies joints enough to know how to apply a proper joint break.  Every thing was muscle.  After attempting to apply a half dozen locks and 5 or 6 throws on me, I was ignored, then asked to "please leave the premises".
This is not the first time either.  Just the most recent.
Just go through the internet and you will see some of the sorriest looking techniques tagged as HKD, it makes you not want to be associated with the name some days.
Bah, enough ranting.  It is only getting worse.  One time not long ago, finding a HKD school was impossible, now there are 30 9th dans with in an hours drive of me.  WTF!


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## dortiz (May 3, 2009)

Wow. A lot of HKD schools. For good or bad thats rare. What parts of the country is this in?


Dave O.


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## bushido (May 3, 2009)

LOL.  Sorry Dortiz, I was venting there. Slight exaggeration on my part, but probably not by much.  I am in ontario canada.  There are 6 schools within 20 mins of me that have HKD in their ads.  In toronto, I found 14 without even using an internet search.  'ell, theres 20 right there, maybe I am UNDER stating the number.  Niagara falls, I just found 4, St. Kits  3 TKD advertising HKD.  I am going to stop looking, I can see that I would find way more than 30 within an hour of me.  The vast majority of these are TKD schools


Canada Hapkido Assoc.
OttawaOntario
Personal Best Karate (Dahn Hapkido)L3B 4E3WellandOntario
Korean Martial Arts Centre (Dahn Hapkido)L4N 4K8 BarrieOntario
Family Korean Martial Arts CentreL8J 2R6Hamilton Ontario
Personal Best Karate (Dahn Hapkido)L8T 1S2HamiltonOntario
Hapkido Hwa Won YueL8W3R4HamiltonOntario
Niagara Hwa Won Yue LOR 1B5BeamsvilleOntario
Scarborough Martial Arts Training GroupM1B 1W7ScarboroughOntario
Global Tae Keuk-Do FederationM3J 2J8TorontoOntario
Eagle Hapkido Academy HeadquartersM4J 1L2TorontoOntario
Eagle Hapkido TorontoM4J 1L2TorontoOntario
Toronto Hapkido AcademyM5A 1T3TorontoOntario
Native Canadian Centre of Toronto Martial ArtsM5R 2S7Toronto Ontario
East West HapkidoM5T 2M1TorontoOntario
Security Training SolutionsN0L 2P0West LorneOntario
The Peaceful Warriors' Martial Arts InstituteN9G 1V3WindsorOntario
Korean Martial Arts Centre (Hapkido)P0R 1B0Blind RiverOntario
Korean Martial Arts Centre (Dahn Martial Arts)P3C 4X8SudburyOntario
Korean  Martial Arts Center (Hap Ki Do)P5A 1Y2Elliot LakeOntario
Kong Shin Bup Hap Ki DoP6A 1M4Sault Ste MarieOntario
Ho Shin Sool Martial Arts & Fitness CentreP6A 2Y5Sault Ste. MarieOntario
Korean Martial Arts Centre  (Hap-Ki-Do)P6B-5J5Sault Ste. MarieOntario
World Dahn Moo Do Association HeadquartersPOB 1MOMuskokaOntario
Hwa Won Yuel8w 3r4HamiltonOntario
Toronto Hapkido Academy (new location)yonge/eglintonTorontoOntario
I just searched HKD Dojang data base and came up with these.  Mind you, all of these are not within an hour of me, but this is not listing TKD advertising HKD either.  It's all over the place here!
Way more than 30 LOL!


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## dortiz (May 3, 2009)

Thats crazy. I would say that is way above average. We have a lot of the TKD schools offering HKD. As usual 90% of the time its that add on special whith a 30 year old Korean sports college grad who has many Dans.
Usually though the plain old Hapkido schools that are labeled that tend to be good. Its the "we teach TKD and 20 arts" that fall short around here (D.C. Area).

Dave O.


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