# Martial arts -- HISTORY AND TRADITION



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

Modern Martail Arts


Whether understood as Japanese budo or as the Chinese and Korean counterparts, do these disciplines espouse or support the old caste-based systems and ideologies? Does budo (or rather, martial arts in general) espouse emulation of the Japanese samuraii, or other types of feudal warrior? 


I started this thread to discus this subject. 


Modern budo does not espouse these things, that in fact, the historical edifice of budo was one of the things that helped remove these institutions and was an enemy to these older modes of thinking and social conduct. What do you think about this?


The fact is that, had these older social conventions survived, commoners like you and I probably would not LEGALLY have been able to study or practice budo (except unless in (para-)military service to the upper classes of nobility and royalty.) We could not legally have practiced or owned swords and other weapons. This would imply that budo was not really the product of these classes or time periods, _but resulted __*after*_ the collapse of these social systems (circa the 1880's). What do you think? 


Do we approach modern martial arts with a sufficient recognition of these importants facts?


If you aren't an American, I recognize that you might understand these things better than we Americans do... that Americans sometimes can be oblivious to these types of historical and social contexts. 


WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK??


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Whether understood as Japanese budo or as the Chinese and Korean counterparts, do these disciplines espouse or support the old caste-based systems and ideologies? Does budo (or rather, martial arts in general) espouse emulation of the Japanese samuraii, or other types of feudal warrior?


 
Actually the system you are talking about in Japan did not and does not exist in China. Historically a caste-based system as it is applied to Martial Arts did not and does not exist there. There were times that Martial Arts were banned but it was generally banned by the winners of a conflict that lead to a dynastic change. The general warrior in China was no where near the same level in society as a Samurai nor did he have the slightest idea of anything called Bushido or Budo. 

Just about every level of society in China has been able to train CMA. There are systems of martial arts in China that are considered military, Xingyiquan, Bajiquan and more recently Sanda but still there were and are many outside the military that could legally train it. There were also styles that were taught at Shaolin and Wudang for example to those that were Shaolin or Taoist priests and there was a multitude of family systems. Te fact is there are a whole lot of styles of CMA which made it pretty much available to a whole lot of people and it was not dependant on class. 

The times such things became illegal were again right after a dynastic change or more recently the Cultural Revolution. 

As to Japan and Korea I cannot answer that and I will leave it to those that know better tham I.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

Okay, Xue.

Good example of a different cultural and social context?

China didn't have a comparable caste system? No correlation?
BTW, the caste systems in question (as I'm sure you know)
were not only applicable "martial arts"/paramilitary studies,
but to almost all vectors of society. 

See, in Europe (where my ancestors came from) they definetly 
had such caste systems. Restrictions and limitations imposed
by social context. Japan had them too.

None in China? Fascinating (I didn't really know for sure.)


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Sep 9, 2008)

It's an interesting question. 

In our open society we often forget the martial ways some of us study weren't always open to the general populace in the not so distant past.  Even Funakoshi and O Sensei were from Samurai Caste families.  Of course there is the founder of Judo who was a commoner.

I don't think many of us think about that when we train in a traditional Japanese Art.

To expand on the question, I've often wondered what modern Budo would look like if Japan hadn't been "militarized" in the 20's and 30's.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

It's a good direction to expand the question in,
and the facts of birth and station relevance on
the part of certain founders of modern martial arts systems
is an even better point.

Makes one wonder indeed?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Okay, Xue.
> 
> Good example of a different cultural and social context?
> 
> ...


 
Oh China did have rich and poor and royalty and countryside and city and multiple other divisions within its culture (and it stil does) but your original post cited samurai and there was no such class in China and martial arts was generally not the property of anyone group.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

Oh, okay Xue.

So did China have caste restriction comparable to 
the limitations of Europe and Japan?

Would wushu have been fully legal (as it is today)
for anybody to practice?


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 9, 2008)

It's an interesting question to cause thought in those that haven't much knowledge of Japanese history. However, your basic premise is much too narrow for reality. When you talk about samurai, you encompass almost 1000 years of history. Even if you restrict it to the history involving extant schools, you are still talking about 400 years of history. Throughout most of the history of the samurai, it was fairly common for people to go up or down in caste.

The truth of Japanese martial arts history is that after the Sengoku Jidai (warring states era mid 1400's to beginning of 1600's) when all of the clans were finally united under the Togukawa shogunate, there was a dearth of employment for many samurai. Since the wars which everyone had grown up with were no longer being fought, many of the warriors that fought them were left unemployed. Quite a number of them gravitated to the large cities and opened dojo teaching the various arts that they had learned. A great many of their students were merchants since they were usually better able to afford to pay for lessons. Except for a few of the more famous or family only schools, the vast majority of Japanese arts were being taught to commoners throughout the Edo period (1600 - late 1800's). After the Meiji restoration in the late 1800's, martial artts continued to be taught to anyone since there no longer _was_ a samurai caste.

Another point that most people get wrong is that only samurai could carry swords. The truth is that only samurai could carry _two_ swords. The daisho (long and short sword) was the samurai's badge of office, and only the samurai class was allowed to wear them. 

I've had contact with many practitioners of various koryu arts. None of them have had any sort of mention in the curriculum or teachings regarding the old caste system, other than when the history of the ryu says that it was practiced in such and such castle.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi Paul, and all else!

Yes, Paul, those are good points.

But the relevance of the samurai to modern budo (and this thread)
is sort of what's in question. Did or does budo espouse the old caste
systems and etc. Or was it part of what dismissed those older elements
of social order.

This isn't a formal address of the subject, it's just a discussion thread.
But certainly it's appropriate to point out that one could easily dismiss
relevant facts by narrowing the subject down too much.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 9, 2008)

> Did or does budo espouse the old caste systems and etc. Or was it part of what dismissed those older elements of social order.


  But that's the point I was making in my statement. You are making an either/or statement, but I believe the answer is neither. It has been my experience that budo is outside the old caste system, and just completely ignores any reference to it other than what comes out in its history. Since I love analogies, you're question is akin to asking whether our thirst would be better quenched with liquid bleach or Drano. You could conceivably make a case for either one, but the real answer would be neither.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Oh, okay Xue.
> 
> So did China have caste restriction comparable to
> the limitations of Europe and Japan?
> ...


 
China was not a cast system at all by the definition of cast system and anybody could train CMA. However if you were not of the royal family a Eunuch or certain members of the military you would be killed if you were in the Forbidden City or certain other areas of the Emperor. But if you look at just the vast number of CMA styles you will see that martial arts were pretty available to anyone peasant, merchant, wealthy and royalty alike. There are styles that have military origin but they are by far fewer than the styles that are not. 

You could be born a peasant and end up a General you could be born a peasant and end up an official if you past the tests you could be born a peasant and end up a priest you could be born a peasant and end up wealthy. You could be a priest that was a martial artists and or end up a soldier you could be a solider and end up a peasant or a priest. However all lived and died by the whim of the Emperor. 

It was once put to me that one major difference between China and Japan was that in Japan the average military person was a samurai and was at the top of society but in China there was no such thing a soldier was only a soldier unless of course you were a general then that was different. But it was still not a cast system because it was possible for the average soldier to become a general.

And a fish merchant or a carpenter or a prince or a soldier or a priest or a government official could be an expert and Martial arts empty hand and/or weapons and it was not illegal. 

The only time knowing or practicing CMA was illegal was after a dynastic change those new to power did not want to give the old guard the chance to revolt so they would not allow the old guard (nationality) to train MA but generally they outlawed weapons training not empty hand training. For example when Ming fell to Qing no Han person was allowed to train or carry weapons but any Manchu, not matter who could. But by the End of the Qing Dynasty no such law was heavily enforced,  again many were training.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

> Paul said:  But that's the point I was making in my statement. You are making an either/or statement, but I believe the answer is neither. It has been my experience that budo is outside the old caste system, and just completely ignores any reference to it other than what comes out in its history. Since I love analogies, you're question is akin to asking whether our thirst would be better quenched with liquid bleach or Drano. You could conceivably make a case for either one, but the real answer would be neither.


 
Oh okay Paul. So "neither" is your answer. 

That's cool.  I don't know if I agree that Budo
ignores the information today. But "neither"
is certainly one possible position!

Xue,

I found that description of China's past very interesting. Doesn't sound
like China had quite the same problem with a strict social order. Given
Chinese sentiments about tolerance, that makes sense (makes me wonder
if maybe there was some truth in the old idea about "savagery".)

The Chinese experience is then different.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 9, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Xue,
> 
> I found that description of China's past very interesting. Doesn't sound
> like China had quite the same problem with a strict social order. Given
> ...


 
I would say it was very different form what I know of Japan but there are times in Chinese history martial artists did not fare so well. Most recently the Cultural Revolution. They were killed but then just about any traditional artisan or artist could be a victim then

Hence the saying the nail the sticks up gets pounded down


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 9, 2008)

Oh boy.  Yep.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 12, 2008)

> That's cool. I don't know if I agree that Budo
> ignores the information today. But "neither"
> is certainly one possible position!


  Perhaps you would get more responses if you detailed _why_ you don't agree with my position. I put down quite a bit of information in support of my statements, yet all you did was say "I don't agree." So is your position based upon your experience in the Japanese arts? Is it how things are approached at your dojo? Is it from things that you've read or seen? Is it simply your "gut feeling"? 

  Discussion is difficult if only one side is talking.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 12, 2008)

Paul,

Hello! Sorry it took so long to reply.

Somehow our wires are crossed. 
I don't disagree with your posted position by any means. 
It is every way valid, one of several potential 'valid' positions.

I don't disagree, I AGREE with you (it being one 'valid' point
of historical development.)

TERRIBLY sorry to have confused you, sir. 
You must certainly have thought me rude?


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 15, 2008)

> the real answer would be neither.



Hey guys, hope you don't mind me sticking my eaku in here 

 I'm gonna agree with this comment above. It has to be noted that although the martial arts were being stamped out in Japan by the warrior caste; the spirit, budo, was not exclusive to that caste. Japan, you must know is a very small island, who expanded territories to a group of islands governed under varying armed nobles (daimyo and their retainers). Where these elite warrior units certainly did carry their own specific bushido (whilst supressing the martial arts of others) so did the masses they attempted to control.
 It's a common fact that most Japanese (if not all, nothing can ever be fully proven) has chinese roots. Both Japan, Okinawa (though I'll include okinawan arts under Japanese for ease of explanation) and China were great sea faring cultures. They relied on the seas and sea trade was common among both cultures at the time.
 During these times martial arts would have been passed from sailor to sailor, fisherman to fisherman. Even farmers and the like obtained and traded knowledge and information with their counterparts from across the seas. This trading of information would inevitably have been a trading for culture also.  It is not uncommon that during a trade of information (be it martial. historical or otherwise) that small bits of culture and etiquette get transferred as well. The main reason for this being that this information was quite tightly engrained within the culture to begin with. The symbiosis would have carried over.
 I know I haven't put down that many base facts, I apologise for this. Fact is I didn't just want to regurgitate the information that's already been posted.
 Think about this: If you've been training for a long time look at how much your art has influenced your life. Not in terms of how you risk assess when your out and about or how good it's made your reactions and perceptions. But look at how it's moulded certain parts of your character. Look at how you talk to people and react to the way others act. Look at how you measure peoples strength when you just walk up the street (we all do it, it's not a crime!). Look at how you'll develop your own personal set of rules to govern yourself by based on your dojo kun. Look at how guilty you'll feel if you ever break even the slightest rule.
 The practice carries on to this day. Though we are not under the same conditions of be killed if you know, we are still trading knowledge and culture all the time. I think it's just another permanent aspect of human social nature. Knowledge enough to kill a man is very dangerous and quite dangerous to a species that spends most of its time trying to kill itself. So it uses it's social nature to develop a safety net to prevent people from using it in the wrong ways (or from using it altogether).

 I hope that helps give a different insight. Just quite random thoughts spilling out of my head.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Hey guys, hope you don't mind me sticking my eaku in here
> 
> I'm gonna agree with this comment above. It has to be noted that although the martial arts were being stamped out in Japan by the warrior caste; the spirit, budo, was not exclusive to that caste. Japan, you must know is a very small island, who expanded territories to a group of islands governed under varying armed nobles (daimyo and their retainers). Where these elite warrior units certainly did carry their own specific bushido (whilst supressing the martial arts of others) so did the masses they attempted to control.
> It's a common fact that most Japanese (if not all, nothing can ever be fully proven) has chinese roots. Both Japan, Okinawa (though I'll include okinawan arts under Japanese for ease of explanation) and China were great sea faring cultures. They relied on the seas and sea trade was common among both cultures at the time.
> ...


 
I do not doubt that things got passed on by sailors but China was not a big sea faring nation. It had a navy that attempted to invade Japan during the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368) and it did for a very brief period try the sea trade route with the great fleet in the early Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) in the early 1400s actually. But beyond that the majority of their life at sea was for fishing and the majority of trade that China did was by land until the Europeans showed up and forced trade upon them.

The only period in Chinese history where you could really refer to them as a great seafaring nation is the early Ming dynasty for a short period of time (1405 and 1433) and that was abruptly ended by the new Emperor. As to a seafaring culture that is mostly the south and mainly for fishing not so much trade although I do not doubt some occured.

Something interesting about this, or at least to me, the Admiral of the great fleet Zheng He was a Muslim born in what is now Yunnan Province

There is however some historical speculation that one of the high advisors of the Qin dynasty (221BC-206BC) took a whole lot of soldiers, women and money to Northern Japan to avoid being killed by Qin Shi Wang Di for failure to find the floating islands were the secret of immortality was. Apparently he went out looking and came back stating that he found it but the secret would cost them and the Qin Emperor gave him all he needed to go pay for it or fight for it if necessary and he sailed off never to be seen again. There has been speculation that he went directly to Northern Japan and set up his own little kingdom, hey it was better then being killed for failure and telling the truth.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 16, 2008)

Another opinion of "neither", then.



Now gentlemen, between the two of you, or either whom will answer...

tell us in some small detail neither what, exactly?  So that the specific point(s) are spelled out. Nothing fancy mind you.


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 16, 2008)

Well replied Xue, some things I hadn't even looked at myself. I have to admit, my knowledge of things outside of Japanese history are very baseline.



> Did or does budo espouse the old caste systems and etc. Or was it part of what dismissed those older elements of social order.



For me to say neither I would say it cannot espouse the old systems simply because the old systems relied on it for a guidance on conformity. There are many other factors that would have to be taken into account for these systems. Factors such as different families and their traditions. The person in charge of state at the time (which emperor). The standing of the family. The individuals and their personal relationships throughout. Main factors being constant change in times meant that old traditions were constantly adapted. The Budo we know today may not even be the same as what was actively integrated all those years ago.

Did it dismiss social order? Yes and no. Yes in terms of if you were poor generally, you stayed poor. You had pretty much no chance of progressing in life because of how it looked and reflected on high ranking members of societ. If you were rich you stayed Rich (unless you were really stupid and lost family fortunes and stuff in which case you were cast out and stricken from record). No because The hierarchical structure was in place long before the advent of the Saburai and their later counterparts the Samurai.
The code only really came in as a way to turn Saburai to Samurai by curbing certain barbaric tendancies in the emperors guard (wouldn't be fitting for the emperor to have a bunch of brutes serving him now would it?).

That's about as basic as I can put it. I've really tried to make it black and white there. Hope that helps.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Another opinion of "neither", then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I think an issue here is when one tries to cross over from Japan to China for a comparison of martial arts history and tradition. The 2 are not all that similar actually when it comes to views and beliefs within martial arts. Yes there is a Chan/Zen Buddhist influence but beyond that not much else. And in China the Buddhist side of things does not cross over to all CMA styles, some are Taoist, some are Buddhist, some use Confucianism and others no claimed association at all. And although I am not sure I would not be surprised if you find something similar in Japan, some Zen, some Shinto, some both some neither.

You have a martial arts tradition and history in China and you have a martial arts tradition and history in Japan but they are not all that similar. You do have Chinese martial arts going to Japan, allegedly form Shaolin and I would also imagine from some of the monks that traveled form Japan to China to study Buddhism and bring it back to Japan but the views of martial artists and their class in society were not the same in China as they were in Japan.

As to Japan and China all martial arts are influenced by both history and tradition of both countries it is just that the history and tradition of those countries is not the same.


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 16, 2008)

> it is just that the history and tradition of those countries is not the same.



Very well said. Makes me think actually about a more recent change in history that I've only stumbled accross today. I was checking out Hawaiian martial arts and in general the Polynesian MAs. I stumbled upon Limalama, a very interesting, martial art with deep cultural roots. It was created by a man named Tuumamao          Tino Tuiolosega. He was a boxer in the military and a well known street fighter in Olesega. He was also the son of the last King of the Pacific Isles before they became part of the US. Essentially the techniques he was taught as part of his cultural heritage were supposed to be taught only to those of royal heritage as they were considered sacred. Tino decided he would use his knowledge to help people when he became an unarmed combat instructor in the US military.

But that's just trivia. The point I'm making with this is that those systems eventually get washed aside, regardless of the the previous cultures. Essentially they are forced to change with the times. So even if the core beliefs remain, the can neither espouse such a system nor can they dismiss it. What effects such changes is the times.

As for different cultures I can't say. I have to admit my knowledge on chinese hierarchy is sketchy at best. I do know the Japanese were very structured and everything had it's place so I can speak for that, but as for other cultures, it would have to depend on 1.) whether they have such a hierarchical structure in place to start with and 2.) how deep rooted the martial philosphy is within that structure.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 16, 2008)

> tell us in some small detail neither what, exactly? So that the specific point(s) are spelled out. Nothing fancy mind you.


  I already did that.


> You had pretty much no chance of progressing in life because of how it looked and reflected on high ranking members of societ.


  That is actually not a true statement. Due to the fact that Japan's history involves much fighting, there was actually quite a lot of opportunity to move up from the farmer class to the samurai class through might of arms. Later in Japan's history, the Tokugawa shogunate solidified the the castes, making it extremely hard for the farmer class to move up, but allowing the merchant class, who did very well without all the fighting, to be able to buy their way into the upper class. There were periods over the course of the 1000 year history of the samurai that movement was basically impossible, but those were more isolated periods than history as a whole.


----------



## kwaichang (Sep 16, 2008)

..no matter what position, IMO, knowing the history of it and a bit about the society it evolved in, helps to ground your knowledge...and have more respect for the chosen art.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 16, 2008)

Hi guys,

Well said, all of you guys. I appreciated the lot of remarks.



> Hyper Shadow said:For me to say neither I would say it cannot espouse the old systems simply because the old systems relied on it for a guidance on conformity. There are many other factors that would have to be taken into account for these systems. Factors such as different families and their traditions. The person in charge of state at the time (which emperor). The standing of the family. The individuals and their personal relationships throughout. Main factors being constant change in times meant that old traditions were constantly adapted. The Budo we know today may not even be the same as what was actively integrated all those years ago.
> 
> Did it dismiss social order? Yes and no. Yes in terms of if you were poor generally, you stayed poor. You had pretty much no chance of progressing in life because of how it looked and reflected on high ranking members of societ. If you were rich you stayed Rich (unless you were really stupid and lost family fortunes and stuff in which case you were cast out and stricken from record). No because The hierarchical structure was in place long before the advent of the Saburai and their later counterparts the Samurai.
> The code only really came in as a way to turn Saburai to Samurai by curbing certain barbaric tendancies in the emperors guard (wouldn't be fitting for the emperor to have a bunch of brutes serving him now would it?).


 
This contains the point(s) what i was driving at, the 'neither' position here included a "yes and no" as to whether Budo had been a part of what helped dismiss the old caste and social orders, etc. As such, quite right... it CANNOT espouse the (olde orders), just as was stated. That is to say, I agree in full. Seems most (if not all) of the posters agree? Probably this is due to wide-spread recognition of these essential facts and points.

Xue's remarks on the difference are excellent, China's experience, historically, are not all that comparable as he explains.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 16, 2008)

Oh my... I've been promoted to "yellow belt"


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 17, 2008)

> That is actually not a true statement. Due to the fact that Japan's history involves much fighting, there was actually quite a lot of opportunity to move up from the farmer class to the samurai class through might of arms. Later in Japan's history, the Tokugawa shogunate solidified the the castes, making it extremely hard for the farmer class to move up, but allowing the merchant class, who did very well without all the fighting, to be able to buy their way into the upper class.



I suppose I really should have worded that a little better. What I was trying to get at was that if you were poor, you stayed poor. The fact that you had the money to buy your way into a seat of power would be testament to your eligibility for that class of people at the time. But well picked up on, thanks for correcting me.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 17, 2008)

Hmm,

Ya know Hypershadow, it's still true in our own current society, and even truer in the martial arts community... one needs to practically buy his way into the more respectable ranks and positions (both of society and of the MA community.) 

If poor and under-equipped, I'll use the word "under-equipped" but I really mean ('lacking certain symbols of status which are tantamount to acceptance' -- such items as the Daijiten and other Sino-Japanese reference texts, perhaps an actual sword from Asia, etc) If one is "under-equipped" then one's social position and reputation instantly suffer. 

IF NOT CORRECTED, to borrow your words on it, "...the poor stay poor..."

One point of interest though? I am about 45 years old, and was around before the internet became available. MOST of *the old* status symbols (such as Japanese documentation and instruction and etc) have become publically available on the net itself, free for all. Thus the original status symbols of 25 years prior (which had been status symbols since about 1942, BTW) are now obsolete.  

Moral of the story?  Usually, a mere 25 years will make all the difference in the world. In 25 years YOU and all of us here now, will look around and see that many of the status symbols became available (whereas once they were rare and not generally available.) In 25 years, you will have obtained those things you largely wanted. 

So maybe the poor remain poor only in a temporary context? I wonder, was it not always like this?


----------



## kwaichang (Sep 17, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Hmm,
> 
> 
> One point of interest though? I am about 45 years old, and was around before the internet became available. MOST of *the old* status symbols (such as Japanese documentation and instruction and etc) have become publically available on the net itself, free for all. Thus the original status symbols of 25 years prior (which had been status symbols since about 1942, BTW) are now obsolete.


While you make a case, I must add, those of us who have been around that long DO value our Japanese language rank certificates, etc. and other such "old stuff", so saying they're obsolete isn't quite the case.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 17, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> I am about 45 years old, and was around before the internet became available.


 
You know I think I remember when I was 45 



jtweymo said:


> it's still true in our own current society, and even truer in the martial arts community... one needs to practically buy his way into the more respectable ranks and positions (both of society and of the MA community.)


 
Point of interest, I personally know of 3 Sifus that if you try and buy rank or respectability they will likely kick you out of class or just plain ignore you and teach you nothing. I also know of one (a 4th) that I suspect would likely give you a beating but then he is in China where he could get away with such things. 

This is not to say there are not those out there that do not sell ranks both in the US and China. The first CMA Sifu I ever had has changed a lot since I first trained with him and where he once made all train he now sells teaching certificates to just about anyone it styles he never trained in China.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 17, 2008)

Well Xue,

I wasn't so much talking about buying ranks or titles, I was talking about buying one's way into things by the aquisition of relevant status symbols. BUT in all fairness, since rank and title ARE possibly such status symbols... actually it does still apply. Somewhat.

The aquisition of these status symbols is relevant to the thread, for example, the coveted status symbols of the samurai, and of the knightly classes of Europe, for example. These became available to most of the commoner classes when those modes of society vanished. 

No matter what one's opinion (on the purchase or "illegitimate" acquisition of rank or title in the Martial arts -- and personally I don't care that much for it myself) the relevance of this custom, as rank being a relevant status symbol is a comparable model to the same historical principle(s).

Otherwise, it's all the same though.   





> Kwaichang said:  While you make a case, I must add, those of us who have been around that long DO value our Japanese language rank certificates, etc. and other such "old stuff", so saying they're obsolete isn't quite the case.



Oh I didn't mean that these, or any relevant status symbol, was any less vaild... only more readily available now, due to the increased avenues of information and access. SOME would say that they are *more relevant *now than ever before, *since they are all better understood these days*.  For example, people used to make a big fuss about the ryuko-no-maki ("Dragon-tiger scrolls").  Only later, via the internet and it's freer access to information, that these documents and indeed the term itself are nothing other than a common form of Instruction manual. Today they know this fact, but years ago, it was all very 'mystical', "secret documents" (ewww!), "scrolls" (ahhh!), very presitigious that panned out to be common classifactions of documents (standard language dictionary term, ryuko-no-maki, ryu-no-maki, ko-no-maki = "instruction manual" -- even some driver's license manuals are called.... ryuko-no-maki.)

Yeah, it's all still valid, perhaps more valuable than ever before BECAUSE we now know what they REALLY are.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 17, 2008)

jtweymo said:


> Well Xue,
> 
> I wasn't so much talking about buying ranks or titles, I was talking about buying one's way into things by the aquisition of relevant status symbols. BUT in all fairness, since rank and title ARE possibly such status symbols... actually it does still apply. Somewhat.
> 
> ...


 
Which could be another reason the comparison of CMA and JMA don't work to well. Traditionally there are no ranks or status symbols of Rank in CMA other than sifu and the students of that sifu. I guess where you get status in CMA is lineage 

But coming from CMA I am wondering what exatly you are referring to as "Status Symbols" and how one acquires them.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 17, 2008)

> Xue said:  Which could be another reason the comparison of CMA and JMA don't work to well. Traditionally there are no ranks or status symbols of Rank in CMA other than sifu and the students of that sifu. I guess where you get status in CMA is lineage
> 
> But coming from CMA I am wondering what exatly you are referring to as "Status Symbols" and how one acquires them.


 
Hi ya, Xue

Actually yeah, I think I heard about this before from other folks, that there aren't many "status symbols" in the CMA, *other than* the reputation of the sifu AND also in some cases the reputation of the school/style itself. Which, I got to tell ya, is itself highly respectable (very social really, very nice indeed!)

As for what are meant by the "status symbols", wow, Xue, there's *all kinds of them*. For example, everything from (1) the densho, makimono and meijo of any given Japanese ryuha or system. Then there's (2) various technical books on Budo subjects (such as the Daijiten, the Bubishi so on and so forth.) (3) Then of course, there's ownership and possession of actual Japanese swords (tachi, kodachi and etc), polearms (yari and naginata and etc) body armor (roi-kumiuchi and etc) (4) Lesser known awards and award items given by ryuha so on and so forth. MORE POSSIBLE BY FAR THAN EVEN THESE THREE would include historical documents (usually rare texts) written in European languages between 1888 - 1965.

Crap Xue, you name it and these guys have it for a status symbol.

I mean literally, YOU NAME IT and they got some form of it as a status symbol. Highly structured both among the Japanese and the Western exponents of the Japanese schools. THE REAL KICKER is that social position somewhat dictates whom may have these symbols (even here in America) and so if the wrong person owns it... it's considered of less integral value!!!!!!!!!!!

Haaa HAaaaa HAAAAaaaaa, whew!!!


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 18, 2008)

> MOST of *the old* status symbols (such as Japanese documentation and instruction and etc) have become publically available on the net itself, free for all. Thus the original status symbols of 25 years prior (which had been status symbols since about 1942, BTW) are now obsolete.



That actually brings to mind stuff I heard about folks who were trying to buy Menkyo Kaiden over the net and worse, the folks that were actually selling them (something like £25,000 could get you a cert of total transmission?!).



> As for what are meant by the "status symbols", wow, Xue, there's *all kinds of them*. For example, everything from (1) the densho, makimono and meijo of any given Japanese ryuha or system. Then there's (2) various technical books on Budo subjects (such as the Daijiten, the Bubishi so on and so forth.) (3) Then of course, there's ownership and possession of actual Japanese swords (tachi, kodachi and etc), polearms (yari and naginata and etc) body armor (roi-kumiuchi and etc) (4) Lesser known awards and award items given by ryuha so on and so forth. MORE POSSIBLE BY FAR THAN EVEN THESE THREE would include historical documents (usually rare texts) written in European languages between 1888 - 1965.



Pretty much symbols of status, but it does go deeper than that. Far deeper. You will not find someone being able to buy Densho, usually they are a family treasure. In fact as far as I know any sort of scrolls of information, weaponry, lesser known awards (which may include some forms of religious jewellery) are all given with Menkyo Kaiden. That is only ever given to one or two select students in a school. There is no way to actually gain copies of the information. To have actually earned the right to possess it in the first place you would already be of a martial mindset that would prohibit you passed that information to any other than whomever you would pass Kaiden to. 



> Actually yeah, I think I heard about this before from other folks, that there aren't many "status symbols" in the CMA, *other than* the reputation of the sifu AND also in some cases the reputation of the school/style itself. Which, I got to tell ya, is itself highly respectable (very social really, very nice indeed!)



I can attest to that. When researching modern day heroic martial artists, the name Huo Yuanjia popped up a lot. So I looked him up. Not least of all did I realise that he plays a central role to the plot of Bruce Lee's fist of Fury and Jet Li plays him in Fearless he was actually a renowned fighter. Upset the Japanese quite a bit as well by kicking the snot out of 20 of their best Judoka in a competition or so the story goes.Apparently the guy fought tonnes of people. And then I traced back a bit further and you get all manner of people and things popping up. Chinese martial culture is actually very exciting (from the tiny snippets I've read). Huo Yuanjia established the Jingwu Sports Federation all through sheer reputation of being a great martial artist. He was able to bring people together in an extraordinary way.

Anyways, back on subject. In terms of Dojo conduct (which I should stress nowadays differs from the structure of a feudal lords estate), rank and the true knowledge of that rank (in terms of koryu rank i.e Menkyo system) cannot be brought, only earned. I know this to be a fact. On the flip side, I also know people can be voted up to ludicrously stupid ranks in other ranking systems (10th Dans and all that argument). But now you're stumbling into very shark infested waters. These sharks are commonly known as the 'Budo Police'. I say sharks, they're more like carrion feeders in my personal experience, but there you go.
The major problem is, people nowadays are trying to observe certain titles and traditions that are no longer compatible with todays social setting and changing multiculture. There is also the problem that some people will also pervert and twist certain aspects of a culture just entirely to suit themselves.
Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a firm traditionalist, however, I also observe common sense and a willingness to be proven wrong (I wouldn't enjoy these sorts of threads if I didn't!). Plus, you have to think. No matter how strict you wanna be and no matter how you want to conduct yourslves in your own dojos, nowadays, we're governed a lot more by outside influences from the government. Think in terms of base laws concerning self defense and your rights (something especially grey in British Law unless you look it up), child protection, health and safety the list is endless.
Also you have to look at the fact that in this day and age if you're running a dojo commercially you are at the mercy of your customers. Rank or no, it makes no difference to parents of children who attend and potential customers.

Anyways that's some completely random rubbish having reread it, hope there's some nuggets in there that's relevant.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh man. 
Oh boy, guys.

Uhm, okay. Before I enter these remarks, I BEG you guys not to think I'm disagreeing or bashing any of your posts (I value all remarks so far, and the conversation is great.) The remarks I'm entering are to point out the reality of the field in question (the "status symbols" mentioned.)

Please don't think I'm arguing or being snotty. 


(1) Densho, mokuroku,  meijo and menjo, makimono the 'maki' type texts and documents (ryuko-no-maki, ryu-no-maki and tora-no-maki) etc etc. These are ALL common classification of documents within traditional Japanese society. Not actually even specialized for the most part. Commonly accessible.  
(1-A) Old examples of these documents or copies of all these can be readily purchased, or otherwise acquired (traded for, obtained for free or nearly free and etc etc) through both Japanese and Western channels. All one needs is an outlet or source for them... a simple search of the internet reveals about 55 such sources, not the least common of which is Ebay and etc. Phone books in major cities provide and average of three sources (usually the higher class  booksellers.)
(1-B) *New and current* examples of these documents or copies of all these can be readily purchased, or otherwise acquired usually through the exact same channels and sources.
(1-C) *THE REAL KICKER:* Less accessible but not much more so, one can have drafted and commisioned ANY OF THESE DOCUMENTS TAILOR FIT MADE TO ORDER (_your specifications_) professionally, or non-professionally on an amateur basis (all of this whether "legitimately", "illegitimately" or even "counterfeited"). THEY ARE ALL COMMON CLASS DOCUMENTATION and are as readily availalble to YOU (or anybody) if you know where to go (ain't hard to find.)
(1-C2) *THE REAL FREAKIN' KICKER*: Just like in our own society, some of these documents are perfectly legitimate to be drawn up and executed BY YOU YOURSELF. If you have reasonable technical knowledge and the skill to execute them. Just like in our own society and it's classifications of documentation -- *some of these documents it is fully legitimate to draw them up yourself *(and the Japanese citizenry do all the time.) EVEN SOME WESTERN INSTRUCTORS DRAW THESE DOCUMENTS UP, _some I have known have a stamp, and documents backing it up, that make the document "legit" in the Japanese or Okinawan school_. ​That's why I spoke the way I did of their being status symbols, it's a value assigned by the practitioners themselves. BTW, menkyo kaiden and etc... not as a "paper mill" mind you, but as legitimate menkyo kaiden can be obtained -- for a number of legitimate purposes by a number of legitimate avenues. I (indirectly) know of three menkyo kaiden straight out of Japan that were obtained this way... one of these guys never went to Japan at all... he filed the paperwork by mail!!!!

Ignorance of the actual conventions is what was addressed here, every word is absolute truth, verifiable with minimal effort via simple internet searches. PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE THAT DOESN'T GET A LOT OF RECOGNITION.


Again, fellas, I deeply apologize if I appear to be bashing or bitching!!

I'm not, dudes!


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 18, 2008)

> I mean literally, YOU NAME IT and they got some form of it as a status symbol. Highly structured both among the Japanese and the Western exponents of the Japanese schools. THE REAL KICKER is that social position somewhat dictates whom may have these symbols (even here in America) and so if the wrong person owns it... it's considered of less integral value!!!!!!!!!!!


  Your statements are true only as regards a certain segment of what I prefer to call "Japanese style" martial arts. The various karate organizations, judo organizations, and jujutsu organizations that sprang up in both the U.S. and Europe mostly by people that were stationed in Japan after WWII. Within those circles, there is definitely a lot of what you are talking about ... status symbols, in crowd and out crowd, haves and have nots. However, it is impossible to apply those same standards to the koryu arts. The koryu are all, with a couple of very rare exceptions, based in Japan. Knowledge and sweat equity (time that you've practiced steadily) are what count in the koryu arts. While many practitioners of the arts *do have* many of the "symbols" that you talk about, it is for their own research and edification rather than as a "symbol" to impress others. Long time koryu practitioners are not impressed at all with what you have, they are impressed by what you know. A natural result of studying the koryu is an interest in history as you try and understand where your art came from. History is as much a part of the knowledge that is passed on in the koryu as martial techniques themselves. This is why symbols are generally ignored since they are easy to fake or buy. The only way to gain knowledge is to work for it.

  At least, that has been my experience.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 18, 2008)

Haa haaa haaaa

Paul, I dig you, man!!



> Paul said:  Your statements are true only as regards a certain segment of what I prefer to call "Japanese style" martial arts. The various karate organizations, judo organizations, and jujutsu organizations that sprang up in both the U.S. and Europe mostly by people that were stationed in Japan after WWII.


 
WHY do I get the feeling you already know what I'm about to say here? Maybe you read my web sites? Heh heh heh   

I AM from one from one the families and schools who practice "...The various...judo organizations, and jujutsu organizations that sprang up in both the U.S. ...mostly by people that were stationed in Japan after WWII."


HA HAA HA, I think you know this too, don't you? My grandfather and his uncles, WWII, combat Judo (AKA Kano Jiujutsu), they were teaching their kids and nephews "combat Judo" ("Kano Jiujutsu") since 1948. All the boys in our family since 1948, i was myself at and since age 11 years old. It was why I got interested in (jujutsu) and wound up in the dojo that practiced our shinden yoshin ryu. THAT dojo was headed up by a guy who, likewise, had served in the U.S. military stationed in Okinawa -- they learned jujutsu (shinden yoshin ryu school) over there and to make money and have a good time opened a few dojos over here after their military service was up.


Hah you must've already know ithat you were describing our kind of outfit!! hee hee, you're a hoot, Paul!!

I dig you, man.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 18, 2008)

I know in a basic sort of way what your background is, but that has no bearing at all on my statement, nor do I know why you are so set up about it. It is just those schools that are quite enamored of the various "symbols" that you are talking about. Because they've only a tenuous connection with their roots in Japan, they tend to be focused on different things than the koryu.

  Don't mistake me, there is nothing wrong with the vast majority of those schools. I've met and trained with people that were great martial artists as well as good people. I'm not denigrating those arts at all. What I'm doing is pointing out that they are quite different than the koryu, and you are attempting to lump them all together as "Japanese arts". 

  Apples and oranges ... both good, both good for you, not the same.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 18, 2008)

Hi ya Paul,




> Paul said:  nor do I know why you are so *set up* about it.


 
Erh, did you mean "up set"? (upset)? I'm not upset. 
I was expressing minimal amusement because I was a member of the group you were addressing (I thought it funny.) If that sentence above reads correctly (and isn't the word 'upset') then I'm not entirely sure what ya mean.... but okay! 



> Paul said:  I'm not denigrating those arts at all. What I'm doing is pointing out that they are quite different than the koryu, and you are attempting to lump them all together as "Japanese arts".
> 
> Apples and oranges ... both good, both good for you, not the same.


 
Oh yeah, I know it. I'm... confused why you brought up the koryu at all, unless perhaps in regard to the "symbols"... that must be what you mean? Anyway, from what I've seen, the Western koryu exponents are even more apt to have interest in certain types of these status symbols *but in all fairness*, I really can't say because *I've never known any koryu men *personally. 




> Paul said:  It is just those schools that are quite enamored of the various "symbols" that you are talking about. Because they've only a tenuous connection with their roots in Japan, they tend to be focused on different things than the koryu.


 
Well, *sometimes* that's true but most of us in my vector of these schools and systems know that in reality these texts, documents and accoutrements are actually very easy to obtain and so are not of any actual intrinsic value beyond a mere curio. The only parties I know of that attach any actual relevance to these types of materials are those whom do so from some sense of tradition, or as social interactions between schools and groups. Personally and in my circles, these sort of things are chuckled at, we see it as being a form of distraction and/or misjudgement (because most of it's common class documentation.) I don't own any of these things right now, but I have owned a few examples, bought my first makimono when I was 16 or 17 years old. Only held it in possession for about two months and then sold it to an interested local dojo instructor. YOU DON'T WANNA KNOW WHAT HE DID WITH IT if you know what I mean. That sort of thing happened two or three times and turned me off so bad that now I rarely ever bother.

:soapbox:


----------



## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 19, 2008)

> Long time koryu practitioners are not impressed at all with what you have, they are impressed by what you know. A natural result of studying the koryu is an interest in history as you try and understand where your art came from. History is as much a part of the knowledge that is passed on in the koryu as martial techniques themselves. This is why symbols are generally ignored since they are easy to fake or buy. The only way to gain knowledge is to work for it.



That's pretty much all you need to know if you wanna boil it right down to stark black and white. You either have folks who are impressed by ability and knowledge or you have folks who are impressed by title and prestige. That doesn't mean you won't get some highly skilled practitioners who hold prestige, but it does mean the vast majority of respect among koryu practitioners is generally given to those with the ability.



> Anyway, from what I've seen, the Western koryu exponents are even more apt to have interest in certain types of these status symbols *but in all fairness*, I really can't say because *I've never known any koryu men *personally.



Speaking as a koryu bloke I can attest at having knowledge about certain status symbols and such. But that's more to do with personally wanting to dveour as much knowedge as possible in my field. Fact is in my dojo if you were to walk in you wouldn't be able to distinguish who was running the place (unless you were a very good and skilled martial artist who could judge someones strength at a glance) since we all wear the same gi, the same belt and talk to each other and everyone else in the same manner. You wouldn't hear any titles being bandied about unless someone specifically asked for them. However, I can't attest for any other koryu schools because I simply haven't found any in the area where I live.



> Apples and oranges ... both good, both good for you, not the same.



Yeah, apples are worse for your teeth and oranges are a pain to peel... :lfao:



> Well, *sometimes* that's true but most of us in my vector of these schools and systems know that in reality these texts, documents and accoutrements are actually very easy to obtain and so are not of any actual intrinsic value beyond a mere curio. The only parties I know of that attach any actual relevance to these types of materials are those whom do so from some sense of tradition, or as social interactions between schools and groups.



Just to make a quick point on that, you do have to look at each individual school. I'm not Japanese and I don't pretend to be (never been that short, meself ;p) but if I am given an old (genuinely really antique) object be Densho, Tachi whatever; I will honour them simply because they wereb a gift. Out of respect I would then find out what exactly whoever gave said object to me wanted me to do with them. Usually if these things are passed with a title, case in point someone recieving Kaiden, their use and how you set about figuring them out is a mystery and generally the only person that can help is usually dead or on their deathbed. But that's neither here nor there, I have to contest that statement based on what I know and have seen.
I cannot deny that there are places where those objects are just (for want of a better word) ornaments and have been bought and sold. But there are those that are treasured items to people and they are only passed on to those who've shown an outstanding aptitude in the arts.



> Again, fellas, I deeply apologize if I appear to be bashing or bitching!!



You're making some good points, man. And it does beg the question. With so much disagreement (especially when it comes to the legitimacy arguments and whatnot) what can we really rely on? Answer: you can rely on yourself, your dojo and those you train with and that's all you need. It is good if you have objects and things that have been passed with titles because it gives you something to work on and research and expand what you know. The titles themselves are actually pretty irrelevent.

Don't worry if you do appear to bitching. Generally if you talk passionately about something in any case it often appears to be so.


----------



## jtweymo (Sep 19, 2008)

Hi ya guys and good morning to ya!

The explanitory remarks on koryu are appreciated, I've never really had any contact with them and never known any koryu men (to be honest there weren't many around in the states back in the day... hell, one rarely ever heard of the koryu until about the late 1980's.) 

I can really appreciate what you describe too, our jujutsu group(s) ran themselves like that, we called it 'not being presumptuous or assuming'. Matter of factness and plain behavior was preferred and considered 'only natural'... really though, at the time, _we all thought that this was a response _to the way other dojos ran themselves (mainly Karate, TKD and occassionally Aikido) where the instructors made a big tah-doo out of things, had a flashier outfit and belt, bowed all over the place and generally behaved very strangely... which had the whole class behaving strangely. Point is that we thought the matter of fact approach we were taught was merely contrary to this?

Maybe... maybe it wasn't, in light of what you said... maybe the Japanese themselves had demonstrated this to our instructors while they were stationed over there in Okinawa?

You maybe just opened up a few doors for me. TYVM if it turns out that way.



> Hyper_shadow said:  Just to make a quick point on that, you do have to look at each individual school. I'm not Japanese and I don't pretend to be (never been that short, meself ;p) but if I am given an old (genuinely really antique) object be Densho, Tachi whatever; I will honour them simply because they wereb a gift. Out of respect I would then find out what exactly whoever gave said object to me wanted me to do with them. Usually if these things are passed with a title, case in point someone recieving Kaiden, their use and how you set about figuring them out is a mystery and generally the only person that can help is usually dead or on their deathbed. But that's neither here nor there, I have to contest that statement based on what I know and have seen.
> I cannot deny that there are places where those objects are just (for want of a better word) ornaments and have been bought and sold. But there are those that are treasured items to people and they are only passed on to those who've shown an outstanding aptitude in the arts.


 
This raises the possibility of a good sub-point: one thing *none of us* has mentioned is that there is a type of these objects (which we are sometimes calling "status symbols") that actually do have much more literal value (if not valuable for money's sake then for importance.)

These are such as the listed objects but which are possibly antique, maybe even unique (ryuha specific?) AND have been passed down for a generation or three. 

This is probably where the other classes of objects in question derive their extended value?? The copies of the texts and documents are handed down so that the body of the document (even though recorded as a copy) then becomes the object (the documentation as a document is arbitrary -- it's then a form of succesive transmission, transferal of the body of the document as an object)  This is then *a matter of lineage*, I believe is what is commonly stated of it -- which makes sense, right?

Beats me I dunno for sure.

%-}


----------

