# Someone explain the technical differences in these branches



## coxscorner (May 17, 2011)

Hey all. I have a background in chinese kempo, Okinawan Ryu Kyu Kempo, Aiki-Ju-jitsu (did these for about 10 years) and also have done the JKD seminar circuit a few times after this. The last few years I have gotten married, have a baby and have been inactive in MA. One of my close friends who lives on the East Coast is a former amateur boxer with a 56-2 record has started in Wing Chun and I always liked the WC side of JKD and would like to get into it a little more. My friend is doing Traditional Wing Chun (Cheung) branch and the only school in my area is Leung Ting branch. The closest Wong Shun Leung branch I think is Chicago which is a 3 hour drive one way for me and that is not reasonable for me to attend. 

My question is this: Without getting into politics and lineage arguments that I care nothing about, can someone explain the technical differences between these 3 branches, e.g. TWC, WSL WC and Leung Ting Ving Tsun. Based on what my friend says TWC seems to be about attacking the blindside and controlling the elbow. What is Leung Ting's philosphy? I went to one free class introductory class so far and it seems they put a lot of weight on the back leg like in bare knuckle boxing and some Karate styles. Anyone know a little more about it care to comment.
Constructive comments only please.


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## zepedawingchun (May 17, 2011)

Coxscorner, any replies you get are going to be opinion because most Wing Chun pratitioners don't mix and match the lineages.  I could tell you what I think is the main differences, but it would most likely not be true.  All this would be based off what we see in online videos or dvd's the various lineages produce.  And most of the time, that is not a real representation of how they use the art.

Years ago, I had a gung fu brother go to a William Cheung Sifu seminar somewhere near Boston.  At the time, we were doing Wing Chun derived from Moy Yat Sifu Wing Chun (our sifu was a student of Moy Yat).  After attending the seminar, he came home and stated what they were doing was no different from our Wing Chun except they didn't use the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma stance (pigeon toe stance).  I think William Cheung Sifu is the only Wing Chun practitioner who doesn't use the YJKYM, which is what makes him the most different from everyone else.

So, you may not get a real answer of what the technical differences are, just hearsay and believed differences.


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## WC_lun (May 17, 2011)

From what I have see, traditional wing chun or William Cheumg's wing chun uses angles on the bridge, attacking from a flnking position if at all possible.  The others tend to get inside the reachof a person and fight from the inside out.  This is one reason you'll rarely see a twc person in a ye jee kim yeung ma while in an exchange.


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## tenzen (May 17, 2011)

Ok ill handle this one fellas as my wing chun is from both wsl and william cheung. First let me address leung tin. His representation is a mimic of the mook yan jong that is why most weight is on the rear leg, this also allows for faster kicking with the front leg, they want to get there first. They also have speedy hand techniques, sometimes giving way to true ability in favor of speed.
With twc you don't see yjkym a lot or at all in some cases. The idea here is to attack from the flank or blind spots like was already stated. They like to establish contact and then hit hard and fast. Trapping is not as heavily eemphasized.
In wsl wc trapping is favored due to the in your face type of fighting that would be used. Once the trap is established you strike like lightning and drive through your target until they crumble. You will also see some high kicks in this system, wsl learned a couple different arts and some things he saw useful he added to his wc. Also I think he was knocked out with a high kick to the head at one point so he incoprated it.
Hope this helps ya man. Either way start with what's going to be the most sensible option and move on later if you like. I mean a 6 hour round trip will be very expensive. If you get the oportunity though it would do you some good to experience the wsl system, especially when you start doing chi sao because its greatly emphasized in their system.


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## zepedawingchun (May 17, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> From what I have see, traditional wing chun or William Cheumg's wing chun uses angles on the bridge, attacking from a flnking position if at all possible. The others tend to get inside the reachof a person and fight from the inside out. This is one reason you'll rarely see a twc person in a ye jee kim yeung ma while in an exchange.


 
In our system, we do both, attack from the flank or get inside the reach and fight from the inside. We deal with whichever situation presents itself. I thought other lineages of WC did the same. So you're saying that it isn't so?

Also, we don't use YJKYM to fight from, it is a training stance only. We use what looks like a traditional boxers stance, left or right side forward, but with more weight on the back leg as opposed to 50/50, which allows for a quick step forward or a fast kick. Or we use a diaginal stance (ju sun ma), which allows shifting from one angle (direction) to the next or rapid side to side stepping (triangle stepping using sam kok bo or sam bo ma, some may call it sip ma) at a moments notice.

I've trained from 3 different lineages, one which was derived from Moy Yat Sifu and Duncan Leung Sifu (my first sifu trained Moy Yat Sifu, then Duncan Leung Sifu), and then Sifu Francis Fong. And all of them had the same philosophy, inside or outside, it didn't matter. Deal with what you get.

The only difference I can speak of is when setting up for the engagement or making first contact with your opponent. We match our opponent's stance, meaning, if the opponent uses a traditional boxers stance of left hand forward, we match it with a left hand forward. If they are set up with a right hand forward, we match it. Then once we have control of the situation, we change up to our stronge hand forward, whichever it may be, like most WC does.


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## WC_lun (May 17, 2011)

Naw, Zepada, I'm saying a TWC man would rather have the leverage and superior defensive position of having a flanking position if given a choice.  If one must fight from the inside then that is what a fella has to do.  However, even then the YJKYM stance is not the best tool to move from inside to outside or as we would do, drive through the center since the body structure is not at its' best for that situation.  I understand other systems do things a bit differently and stress other concepts though.


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## tenzen (May 17, 2011)

You both have good points here. But let's remember, no matter the method the end result will be the same. Us standing over someones unconcsious *** victorious.


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## geezer (May 17, 2011)

coxscorner said:


> My question is this: Without getting into politics and lineage arguments that I care nothing about, can someone explain the technical differences between these 3 branches, e.g. TWC, WSL WC and Leung Ting Ving Tsun... Anyone know a little more about it care to comment.
> Constructive comments only please.



I trained with Leung Ting during the eighties. Some of his people are very good. Some are not. And some are very commercial. In the '90s I stopped training, changed careers and began raising a family. When I returned to training many years later, I switched to the NVTO, an offshoot of my original group. Tenzen and Zepeda made some good observations about general tendencies of the different branches, but of course, the most important thing is to find a good instructor and then give it a go. Let us know how things turn out.


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## Domino (May 18, 2011)

Many people I talk to favour WSL, just very direct and sometimes described as being 'more' offensive.


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## tenzen (May 18, 2011)

Domino is right. The wsl lineage is all about brining the fight, but they do it intelligently. Make contact trap attack.


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## Domino (May 19, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Domino is right. The wsl lineage is all about brining the fight, but they do it intelligently. Make contact trap attack.


 
Thanks man appreciated ! 1st time for everything 
I like to try and integrate certain aspects in my chi sau and sparring.


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## zepedawingchun (May 19, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Domino is right. The wsl lineage is all about brining the fight, but they do it intelligently. Make contact trap attack.


 
WSL lineage is not the only one that likes to bring the fight to you.


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## cwk (May 19, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> WSL lineage is not the only one that likes to bring the fight to you.


I thought all wing chun was supposed to be like this


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## mook jong man (May 19, 2011)

cwk said:


> I thought all wing chun was supposed to be like this



It should be , if it is direct.


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## tenzen (May 19, 2011)

Yes all wing chun is for bringing the fight, but from my personal experience the wsl system is a bit more aggressive. Although any wc system has this potential, its just on the individual person. Because it is a concept based art you have to make it your own. Wsl practitioners just seem to be more aggressive and will attack more often.


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## geezer (May 19, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Yes all wing chun is for bringing the fight, but from my personal experience the wsl system is a bit more aggressive...



Ever work with Emin Boztepe or the EBMAS people? It doesn't get much more aggressive than that!


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## tenzen (May 19, 2011)

No I can't say that I have. Always wanted to though. I have heard a lot of good things about them.


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## yak sao (May 19, 2011)

geezer said:


> Ever work with Emin Boztepe or the EBMAS people? It doesn't get much more aggressive than that!


 

That's for sure. I had the good fortune to train under Sifu Emin for 10 years, and if I could, I would do it all over again


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## Nabakatsu (May 20, 2011)

Congrats on the black belt yak! I just had a seminar with him in chicago last weekend, twas awesome. I plan on training a lot with him and michael casey in the near future!


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## yak sao (May 20, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> Congrats on the black belt yak! I just had a seminar with him in chicago last weekend, twas awesome. I plan on training a lot with him and michael casey in the near future!


 

Thanks....I got it from a whole lot of "yakking" 

I've been on the receiving end of Sifu Emin's and si-sok Casey's fists many times...good times. They're great people to learn from. Take every opportunity.


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## cwk (May 20, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Thanks....I got it from a whole lot of "yakking" .



methinks you got your BB in cheesy puns a long time ago mate.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  They do make me laugh though.


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## tenzen (May 20, 2011)

Congrats yak.


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## Asmo (May 21, 2011)

Congratulations!


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## zepedawingchun (May 21, 2011)

Yak sao,   :high5::drinky:


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## yak sao (May 21, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Yak sao, :high5::drinky:


 

Good idea.....drinks are on me!


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## cwk (May 21, 2011)

In that case, make mine a double.


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## El_Nastro (Jun 16, 2011)

coxscorner said:


> Based on what my friend says TWC seems to be about attacking the blindside and controlling the elbow.



William Cheung people like to say that, and when they do it implies that WC isn't about attacking the "blindside" and isn't about controlling the elbow.

Well, it is. All you have to do is look at any Ip Man WC person doing the dummy form, & basically the entire dummy set is all about ways to get to the outside. In WC, you learn how to work on the inside if you need to, or the outside. Where you wind up working depends entirely on the situation.  

And we know all about controlling the elbow.

Other differences between Cheung-style & WC:

Cheung people often say, "We have superior, more mobile footwork because we don't keep all our weight on one leg. We do 50/50 weight distribution and are thus more mobile."

Again, this implies something about WC that simply isn't true. In WC there's nothing preventing you from stepping around with your balance at 50/50, but you _also_ learn to shift your balance (and thus your centerline's position) around your "balance-base" _without_ stepping. Often, a simple shift will suffice & you don't need to take an actual step. 

So many of these differences you friend says exist between Cheung-style & Ip Man WC aren't really differences at all. 

As for actual differences:

In Cheung-style, they believe "Bil Jee" is about poking the enemy with your fingertips & attacking "pressure points". 

In WC, the Biu Jee form has nothing to do with pressure points....yeah, you _could_ use a biu sau to stab someone in the eyes or throat, but that's not really what the technique is usually trained for - the same way you could use a pok sau to slap someone in the face, but that's not really what the technique is trained for. In WC, the biu sau move is for bridging and for recovering the line if you lose it. And in WC, the Biu Jee form is about "emergency techniques" recovering the centerline if you get in trouble, and it's where you start learning how to correctly generate as much power as you can. 

Ip Man WC believes in attacking the enemy's core & attacking his balance, it doesn't spend much time worrying about specific pressure points. 

Also, Cheung-style is a lot more complicated than in terms of the forms. Just watch Ip Man or any of his other students doing them (do a youtube search for Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shong Tin, Ip Ching, or any of those guys). They're deceptively simple. Now watch Cheung, or any of his students  Note the difference. 



coxscorner said:


> What is Leung Ting's philosphy? I went to one free class introductory class so far and it seems they put a lot of weight on the back leg like in bare knuckle boxing and some Karate styles. Anyone know a little more about it care to comment.
> Constructive comments only please.



These days I'm in the Ip Ching lineage, but I've spent a fair amount of time training in Ting's system. 

The main thing about Ting's approach is that they favor a full-on blitz-attack and seek to overwhelm the enemy by throwing faster, harder attacks than the enemy. Watch the Wing Chun episode of "Fight Quest" & you'll see what I mean. Is the enemy charging & chain punching at you? Ting's answer is (often), "chain punch right back at him!" Leung Ting's system is basically about full-on, overwhelming aggression. 

This is not to say that other lineages are not about being aggressive, but at least in the Ip Ching lineage, you train to gain control using chi sau training, find a hole, and _then_ unload with chain punches.


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## Jake104 (Jun 16, 2011)

El_Nastro. I would have to disagree with your statement about LT system. From my experience with another member on this forum, who has trained under LT. Is quite the opposite. I too had this preconception, before I actually met, and trained with someone from the system. I think the tactics you mentioned are of a lower skill, and beginner  level.

Jake


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## El_Nastro (Jun 16, 2011)

Jake104 said:


> El_Nastro. I would have to disagree with your statement about LT system. From my experience with another member on this forum, who has trained under LT. Is quite the opposite. I too had this preconception, before I actually met, and trained with someone from the system. I think the tactics you mentioned are of a lower skill, and beginner  level.
> 
> Jake



That very well could be. When I was doing LTWC, I was a beginner. (I was in LTWC for about a year)

Still, that approach seems to be more common in the LT lineage than others.

Again, just as an example, watch the fight quest episode. The 2 newbies charged at the LT veterans, and the veterans' answer was to try to out chain-punch the challengers. Maybe the veterans could have done something other than that, but they didn't.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2011)

El_Nastro said:


> That very well could be. When I was doing LTWC, I was a beginner. (I was in LTWC for about a year)
> 
> Still, that approach seems to be more common in the LT lineage than others.
> 
> Again, just as an example, watch the fight quest episode. The 2 newbies charged at the LT veterans, and the veterans' answer was to try to out chain-punch the challengers. Maybe the veterans could have done something other than that, but they didn't.



Yeah, I was also pretty disappointed in the way LT coached those guys... both the fight quest guy (who messed up his knee struggling to adapt to the WT back-weighted stance) and LT's Chinese guys the American had to spar. But there is more to the LT system than what we saw in that episode. In fact I'm beginning to think that there are a couple of divergent philosophies growing out of LT's Wingtsun. Look at Kernspecht and the Europeans, at Emin here in the States, at Jeff Webb in Texas, then back at the guys in Hong Kong. You will see some significant variations, and I really _don't_ believe that the Chinese are always the best.


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## yak sao (Jun 17, 2011)

geezer said:


> Yeah, I was also pretty disappointed in the way LT coached those guys... both the fight quest guy (who messed up his knee struggling to adapt to the WT back-weighted stance) and LT's Chinese guys the American had to spar. But there is more to the LT system than what we saw in that episode. In fact I'm beginning to think that there are a couple of divergent philosophies growing out of LT's Wingtsun. Look at Kernspecht and the Europeans, at Emin here in the States, at Jeff Webb in Texas, then back at the guys in Hong Kong. You will see some significant variations, and I really _don't_ believe that the Chinese are always the best.


 

I've experienced this first hand. My first si-fu was directly from EWTO training, while my current si-fu was a product of HK training.
The HK version is definitely softer, but the German variation revolutionized the fighting aspect of it with its lat sao programs.


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