# A Uniform Should Be Just That?



## Gnarlie (Mar 25, 2015)

Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train? 

What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?

What are your views on belt embroidery and bars at various grades? 

What are your views on the use of electrical tape to denote grade steps?

What about badges and printed logos /designs? 

Is there a limit, and how does 'pimp my uniform' fit with the tenets of Taekwondo?

What makes a practical and popular club dobok?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train?



No, it is not. It's not important that they wear _*any*_ uniform. What;s important is that they train.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?



Our geup ranks wear plain white dobaks. I've always worn black pants, and of late, several of our Dan ranked students have adopted them as well. Mostly because they don't stain as easily. I like my Moo Sool Sa diamond pattern dobak tops.
But they're not important. I can train in jeans.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on belt embroidery and bars at various grades?



Our Dan ranks are given an embroidered belt, and there are bars on them to denote rank. 
I've been known to grab the wrong belt on occasion, and it certainly doesn't make any difference.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the use of electrical tape to denote grade steps?



It's an easy way to denote the halfway point between colored belts and doesn't really cost anything. We've used this method forever.



Gnarlie said:


> What about badges and printed logos /designs?



Our students get a Moo Duk Kwan badge to wear on the left side of the chest. One added a Korean flag to her arm. A couple have vertically embroidered Taekwondo patches (that they got from a tourney) centered on their backs.



Gnarlie said:


> Is there a limit, and how does 'pimp my uniform' fit with the tenets of Taekwondo?



I don't think patches really have anything whatsoever to do with the tenets.



Gnarlie said:


> What makes a practical and popular club dobok?



Whatever everybody else is wearing...


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## ks - learning to fly (Mar 25, 2015)

this is my uniform: White Adi-champ dobok with the black collar that is 'standard' for Black Belts at our dojang
left shirt front patch - school patch (standard), right shirt front patch - association patch (standard), left
shoulder patch - Korean flag (standard), right shoulder patch - USA flag (standard), below the USA flag -
3 500 lesson patches (earned for each 500 lessons), one embroidered Black Belt (earned at testing)
that's all, nothing else


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## TrueJim (Mar 25, 2015)

Some background: the school that my son and I train in is run by a 44-year old Korean man, a Kukkiwon 7th dan who started studying taekwondo in 1979. I think he does a nice job of mixing traditional practices with more modern practices that appeal to suburban kids taking taekwondo.



Gnarlie said:


> Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train?



Where we train, generally yes. Kup grades get solid-white uniforms; you're not allowed to wear those once you have a poom/dan grade; then you have to wear the black trim.

One exception though is the various "team" uniforms: Demo Team, and Leadership Team. For those special uniforms, the kup and poom/dan uniforms are identical. (We have a few kup in both teams, but they're mostly poom/dan in those teams.) You're allowed to wear those uniforms to any class. I tend to wear my Leadership Team uniform 99% of the time because it's red and black, meaning it doesn't show as much dirt -- I save my dress whites for the ceremonies, so they stay nice looking.

Another exception is tee-shirts. On hot days you're allowed to wear either a school-issued tee (with the school's logo on it) or a tee from a tournament that you competed in (it's a nice little perk that encourages people to compete in tournaments).



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?



What an interesting question. I think at my school, if you had really good taekwondo, people would think it was cool. If you have really bad taekwondo, people would think you were a poser. Two of our instructors are former K-Tigers and they have a couple fancy uniforms in the closet, but nobody thinks it odd when they wear them -- they can do standing backflips and jump over the moon, so who's gonna say anything?



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on belt embroidery and bars at various grades?



Personally, I would rather see a fancy belt than a fancy uniform. At our school, we tend to stitch a lot of things onto the belt to show various accomplishments. Personally, I find that kind of cool. It's like: your uniform is just your uniform, but your belt is your biography.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the use of electrical tape to denote grade steps?



Especially when you're working with kids, I think it's super-important to do this. Kids are energized by the sense of constant progress...it's the same trick video games use to keep kids coming back. It's very motivational.



Gnarlie said:


> What about badges and printed logos /designs?



I would say essentially all the schools in my area put the school logo on the back of the uniform. I was just at the HK Lee tournament this past Saturday, and there were over a thousand competitors. I was very glad that each school had their own logo, because it made it really easy to find my schoolmates. Our school also puts the school name on the pant leg, which again at tournaments is super useful.

If it weren't for tournaments, I might think that all these logos and such were silly, but given the fact that we try to attend a lot of tournaments, I find the logos super-practical from a tournament standpoint. I assume our coaches find it useful too, since it makes it easy to find our athletes during the tournament (we usually have a couple dozen in a tournament, so that logos really help).



Gnarlie said:


> Is there a limit, and how does 'pimp my uniform' fit with the tenets of Taekwondo?



Thankfully, I don't think I've ever seen an overly-pimped uniform in person, but I've seen photos of overly pimped uniforms. I don't like the way they look, but that may be because I'm just not used to them. Some people might consider our uniforms overly-pimped though:

National flags on the Kup uniforms
School logos on the back
School name on the pant leg
Embroidered belts
*I'll reiterate though that I find those last three things to be practical*, not pimpy. The school logos and names on the uniform are actually _really really really_ useful *if you're at a tournament*. (Otherwise I could take 'em or leave em.) The embroidered belts let you know at a glance who's accomplished what, which is useful when you're breaking into groups to work on things.



Gnarlie said:


> What makes a practical and popular club dobok?



At our school, all the kids want the black uniforms, which means they either need to join the Demo Team (black with yellow trim) or the Leadership Team (black with red trim). Neither team requires extra fees, but both require extra classes. I think half the kids join the teams just to get the uniforms!

So...black uniforms. Everybody loves the black uniforms. That having been said, at our school you may not attend a promotion test or ceremony in anything but your dress-whites.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

I got my gi tie dyed.

Just sayin.


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## Steve (Mar 25, 2015)

We're you guys aware that it's disrespectful and a breach of flag etiquette to wear a USA flag patch on an athletic uniform?  While most people don't know or care, for those of us who do, it looks bad.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> We're you guys aware that it's disrespectful and a breach of flag etiquette to wear a USA flag patch on an athletic uniform?  While most people don't know or care, for those of us who do, it looks bad.



If it's worn to show respect, that makes the group a patriotic organization. Which makes it perfectly acceptable. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> If it's worn to show respect, that makes the group a patriotic organization. Which makes it perfectly acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



There is a formal etiquette and an informal one. The formal etiquette is pretty strict on that kind of thing.
USFlag.org A website dedicated to the Flag of the UnitedStates of America - Flag Etiquette


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## Drose427 (Mar 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> There is a formal etiquette and an informal one. The formal etiquette is pretty strict on that kind of thing.
> USFlag.org A website dedicated to the Flag of the UnitedStates of America - Flag Etiquette



Worn as a sign of an orgs respect for their country falls under patriotic organization


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Especially when you're working with kids, I think it's super-important to do this. Kids are energized by the sense of constant progress...it's the same trick video games use to keep kids coming back. It's very motivational.


I think the OP meant whether or not electrical tape (being cheap and nasty) is appropriate over having a specific belt to denote in between ranks.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 26, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train?



Everyone has the same basic uniform design however the instructor's uniform is embroidered instead of printed and is made of thicker material black belts who are not instructors have the option of purchasing one. They are more expensive but they last a lot longer and are tougher.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?



We don't have fancier versions of our uniforms. Personally I don't see much point in them other than wanting to stand out in a competition if you were in a competition style. 



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on belt embroidery and bars at various grades?



Only the black belts have embroidery on them and it is usually a 6 month wait for black belts to get their name on them.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the use of electrical tape to denote grade steps?



Tried and true method used for ages.



Gnarlie said:


> What about badges and printed logos /designs?



Some regions have a badge on the uniform but that's about it.



Gnarlie said:


> Is there a limit, and how does 'pimp my uniform' fit with the tenets of Taekwondo?



A uniform is about advertising the school not the individual.



Gnarlie said:


> What makes a practical and popular club dobok?



Uniformity, allows unrestricted movement, shows school logo and name of school, nothing too fancy.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> So...black uniforms. Everybody loves the black uniforms



All females love the black uniforms, or at least the black bottoms. No female loves white, to the point where it may mean a female can't train when she has her period. White is definitely impractical, not so good for children either.


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## clfsean (Mar 26, 2015)

We always wore plain white back in the day. No patches, no advertising, no "feel good accomplishments". Just plain white that slowly faded too a miasma of bleached stain colors over time. It was about training, not trying to make any kind of statement.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 26, 2015)

1. If your school / group/ org specifies a uniform, then that is what you should wear.   Uniform = "uniform"

2. At the end of the day, like grandma used to say, "It ain't the crust that makes the pie, it's the filling."


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> We're you guys aware that it's disrespectful and a breach of flag etiquette to wear a USA flag patch on an athletic uniform?  While most people don't know or care, for those of us who do, it looks bad.



On the other hand...the Olympics...


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I think the OP meant whether or not electrical tape (being cheap and nasty) is appropriate over having a specific belt to denote in between ranks.



Ahhh....that's a different question.

Actually, I think it does look kind of cheap. I can't think of any better way to do it though. Like you said, tried and true.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> White is definitely impractical, not so good for children either.



Ditto on white. That's the standard uniform color at our school, and it's not great. The children's uniforms get dirty often, which means they get washed often, which means they turn dingy grey quickly...  I understand the symbolism and the tradition, but having kids exercise in white isn't ideal.

Aside: one of our former-K-Tiger instructors just returned from Korea with some white Y-neck (black trimmed) tops with black bottoms. Sharp sharp sharp!


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 26, 2015)

During the summer time students can wear RTKD T-shirts instead of the jackets but instructors and black belts always wear the full uniform. Well except for that one time I had to wear shorts because I packed a white curtain instead of my pants (they looked the same folder up when I was in a hurry).


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> On the other hand...the Olympics...


Makes it no less tacky.  I cringe when they drape themselves in the flag when they win an event.  If you're not a first responder or in the military, it's really a breach of flag etiquette.   But as I said, most people don't know or don't care.   Some do.


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## dancingalone (Mar 26, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train?



No.  I do require that people complete an instructor program before teaching class unsupervised however.  These graduates can wear black uniforms if they want to stand out and make it easy for other students to seek help from them.  This is a recent change for my school.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?



Not for me, but I won't judge others if they want to. 



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on belt embroidery and bars at various grades?



We do award embroidered black belts.  That said I recognize that it's a vanity of sorts, though useful to an extent at schools with large numbers of students where it is handy to identify the more senior dans from the more junior ones (as if their skill shouldn't already differentiate themselves).  I like names on belts and am considering asking every student, student grades also, to have their name stenciled or embroidered onto their uniforms.  Again, it's handy when you have a large school.

Then again, since I hold dan ranks in three different martial arts and still practice all of them regularly, I just go with the unadorned black belt most of the time.  Saves me a bit of extra hassle figuring out which belt to pack.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the use of electrical tape to denote grade steps?



Fine and customary locally here unless you want to have a new color belt for all 9 colored belt levels.  I think the kids like getting ranked up and are inspired by the idea even if it's just a piece of tape.



Gnarlie said:


> What about badges and printed logos /designs?



I have a school patch.  I don't do the logo printing because I want students that leave my school to still have a uniform that may be useful elsewhere.



Gnarlie said:


> Is there a limit, and how does 'pimp my uniform' fit with the tenets of Taekwondo?



In general, I believe a uniform should be uniform.  Meaning the dojo/dojang should not be a place where social and financial status matter, where those with more resources than the others can out-peacock their classmates.  Keep the personal bling to a minimum.  I feel the same way about brand logos and such on uniforms but that's a losing battle unless you want to force everyone to wear the generic stuff that often aren't as good fits for them bodywise.



Gnarlie said:


> What makes a practical and popular club dobok?



A plain judo uniform.  Really.   They're cheap, durable, and great for training grabs and such.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> If it's worn to show respect, that makes the group a patriotic organization. Which makes it perfectly acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


Come on.  Are you comparing your commercial business, a Tkd school, to the veterans of foreign wars or daughters of the American recolution?

I'm on an iPad, so linking is a pain.   But the U.S. senate has an FAQ that addresses some common breaches of flag etiquette.  This is what they say, which essentially echoes what I've said before, which is that if you don't care, so be it.  But its still tacky:


> Use of the Flag in Jewelry, Commercial Products, Wearing Apparel, and Advertising
> 
> The Flag Code addresses the impropriety of using the flag as an article of personal adornment, a design on items of temporary use, and item of clothing.49 The evident purpose of these suggested restraints is to limit the commercial or common usage of the flag and, thus, maintain its dignity. The 1976 amendments to the Code recognized the wearing of a flag patch or pin on the left side (near the heart) of uniforms of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.50 The Code also states that the flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.51
> 
> *While wearing the colors may be in poor taste and offensive to many, it is important to remember that the Flag Code is intended as a guide to be followed on a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag. [/i]It is, at least, questionable whether statutes placing civil or criminal penalties on the wearing of clothing bearing or resembling a flag could be constitutionally enforced in light of Supreme Court decisions in the area of flag desecration.*


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## Danny T (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> We're you guys aware that it's disrespectful and a breach of flag etiquette to wear a USA flag patch on an athletic uniform?  While most people don't know or care, for those of us who do, it looks bad.


Not certain this is correct.
The flag code prohibits using the flag_: 
"for any advertising purpose" and also states that the flag "should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use_...
_
"The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", and "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform"._

"_When displayed on uniforms; flag patches are worn on the right shoulder, following the vehicle convention with the union toward the front._"


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Not certain this is correct.
> The flag code prohibits using the flag_:
> "for any advertising purpose" and also states that the flag "should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use_...
> _
> ...




What, no knickers with a flag on? We bung our Union flag on anything we want, we also have national flags for each country and county flags for each county but they are only flags to us. You can't however use the Royal Standards, they aren't flags, they are Standards for the use of the monarch only. We don't seem to have any particular ideas about flags, we have military Colours of course, except they aren't always 'flags' in one case they are field guns. They are sacrosanct, some being hundreds of years old though those are laid up now and new ones used. But the Union Flag, we can put it on anything, it's patriotic to do so


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## dancingalone (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> Come on.  Are you comparing your commercial business, a Tkd school, to the veterans of foreign wars or daughters of the American recolution?



All of the TKD dojang I've visited in the USA have the American and South Korean flags prominently displayed.  Students usually bow to them one way or another before joining and leaving class.  Whatever the true 'rule' is regarding patriotic private organizations are, I don't think it completely insane for a TKD school to regard itself as a patriotic organization.  I mean, Jhoon Rhee, even has one of his musical hyung set to something like Stars and and Stripes Forever, though I'm not entirely sure of the exact song.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Not certain this is correct.
> The flag code prohibits using the flag_:
> "for any advertising purpose" and also states that the flag "should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use_...
> _
> ...


In the first part, they are talking specifically about athletic uniforms, which a TKD dobok would be, IMO.  The "uniforms" in the last bullet refers to the uniform of a first responder (fire fighter, police officer, etc) or a member of the US military.

Look, the thing is, my intent was to share some flag etiquette, not to start an argument.  We can disagree on whether it's a big deal or not, and that's okay.  But there is actually a public law 94-344 that is clear on what is and is not okay to do with the American flag.  It states the following, verbatim (emphasis mine):





> No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of _*military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations*_. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."


As I said before, there are some organizations that are okay to wear a flag patch, but a commercial, for profit, athletic organization just isn't a "patriotic organization."  The American Legion, the VFW, American Red Cross are the biggies.  There are many others along the lines of the Daughters of the American Revolution, Sons of the Revolution and along these lines.  I believe (but don't quote me) that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America are considered to be patriotic organizations, as well.

There is room for you guys to believe that this no big deal, and I respect that.  But, there's really not a lot of room for interpretation here.  The guidelines are very clear.

Edit:  Found a more up to date link to the code on Senate.gov:  http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> What, no knickers with a flag on? We bung our Union flag on anything we want, we also have national flags for each country and county flags for each county but they are only flags to us. You can't however use the Royal Standards, they aren't flags, they are Standards for the use of the monarch only. We don't seem to have any particular ideas about flags, we have military Colours of course, except they aren't always 'flags' in one case they are field guns. They are sacrosanct, some being hundreds of years old though those are laid up now and new ones used. But the Union Flag, we can put it on anything, it's patriotic to do so


 Different countries with different rules and different guidelines.  You can certainly find American Flag knickers, but that doesn't make it patriotic.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> All of the TKD dojang I've visited in the USA have the American and South Korean flags prominently displayed.  Students usually bow to them one way or another before joining and leaving class.  Whatever the true 'rule' is regarding patriotic private organizations are, I don't think it completely insane for a TKD school to regard itself as a patriotic organization.  I mean, Jhoon Rhee, even has one of his musical hyung set to something like Stars and and Stripes Forever, though I'm not entirely sure of the exact song.


I understand that this may be common within the culture of TKD, but I believe that there is a clear distinction between a TKD school and the American Red Cross, the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars or other "patriotic organizations."  

Once again, we're talking about what is respectful and disrespectful, not legal or illegal.  Nobody is going to mandate that you stop doing what you're doing.  But, at least now you'll know that the patch on the uniform is a clear breach of flag etiquette.  Provided that you are following the rules for correctly displaying the flag in your dojang, hanging it is probably just fine.


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## dancingalone (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> I understand that this may be common within the culture of TKD, but I believe that there is a clear distinction between a TKD school and the American Red Cross, the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars or other "patriotic organizations."



Got a reference for how Congress defined 'patriotic organizations'?  I was unable to find one in P.L. 94-344 which is the source document for proper display of the US flag. Thanks.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

Interestingly, at the school my son and I attend:

We do have the Korean and U.S. flags on the shoulder patches of the Kup uniforms, and also of course
We salute the U.S. flag at the end of class, but also
During Kup belt testing, the students are often asked many questions about the U.S. flag: what the colors symbolize, what the stars and stripes symbolize, etc. The questions are part of the belt test.
Even though most of our instructors were born and raised in Korea, they're real big on U.S. patriotism. I was pleasantly surprised to discover how much "respect the U.S. flag" sentiment there was in our school.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> Got a reference for how Congress defined 'patriotic organizations'?  I was unable to find one in P.L. 94-344 which is the source document for proper display of the US flag. Thanks.


Do a little research on it and apply some common sense, and I'm sure the distinction will be clear.  A "for profit", commercial TKD dojang is not a patriotic organization.  It's a business.  Really, not to be obstinate, but I think this is as close to black and white as we can get.  And once again, if it's not a big deal to you or your organization to be in breach of flag etiquette, so be it.  Nobody is going to come in and fine you or censure you.  But, people who cherish the flag as a living symbol of our country know what is and is not okay, and we notice.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Interestingly, at the school my son and I attend:
> 
> We do have the Korean and U.S. flags on the shoulder patches of the Kup uniforms, and also of course
> We salute the U.S. flag at the end of class, but also
> ...


Breaches of etiquette are often well meaning attempts to show respect.  It was really in that spirit that I was sharing the actual flag etiquette with you guys.  Simple ignorance isn't any kind of problem at all.  There are tons of things we do with the best of intentions that miss the mark.  This is one of them.  People just don't know, and as we don't have any kind of civics classes in schools anymore (or at least, they are rare), our kids are not being taught HOW to properly respect the flag or demonstrate patriotism for their country.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve just a question in where would the Olympic athletes fall?  If I am correct on their uniforms they have the Olympic flag either embroidered, screen printed, etc.  They are sanctioned through our government and receive funding.  Also Jhoon Rhee a Tae Kwon Do pioneer also taught and probably still teaches some United States Congress people and his organization has the flag on their uniform?  He, I also believe has several commendations from Congress.  I have attached a couple of photos.  The gentleman in the photo with him was a former congressman and also an officer in the Air Force.

Just a note in that I agree with you but believe the cat was let out of the bag long ago.


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## dancingalone (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> Do a little research on it and apply some common sense, and I'm sure the distinction will be clear.  A "for profit", commercial TKD dojang is not a patriotic organization.  It's a business.  Really, not to be obstinate, but I think this is as close to black and white as we can get.  And once again, if it's not a big deal to you or your organization to be in breach of flag etiquette, so be it.  Nobody is going to come in and fine you or censure you.  But, people who cherish the flag as a living symbol of our country know what is and is not okay, and we notice.



I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound as patronizing as it read to me.

I don't actually use a flag patch myself, but no I'm not simply going to accept your word for it, Steve.  It seems that if this is something important to our Congress (and it appears to be since they took the trouble to draft a law about it), then it should be easy enough to find the legal definition of patriotic organization as it pertains to P.L. 94-344.  Help me out?


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound as patronizing as it read to me.
> 
> I don't actually use a flag patch myself, but no I'm not simply going to accept your word for it, Steve.  It seems that if this is something important to our Congress (and it appears to be since they took the trouble to draft a law about it), then it should be easy enough to find the legal definition of patriotic organization as it pertains to P.L. 94-344.  Help me out?


I'm really sorry of it sounded patronizing and thanks for the benefit of the doubt.  Not intended.

I haven't looked for a "legal" definition of "patriotic organization" although I wouldn't be surprised to find one.  But, perhaps you can help me out, because I really can't understand your position.  Are you seriously comparing a for-profit, commercial, athletic business to a patriotic organization such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Red Cross or the American Legion?  Have you ever been to a Legion Hall?   I am struggling to comprehend how you think there is a gray area.  It's truly not intended to be patronizing.  It's genuine confusion in the face of what just flat out doesn't make any sense to me at all.   Is there really any question about whether Kim's TKD dojang a "patriotic organization?"

Edit:  Another question, do you understand how it's (at least) mildly offensive to compare a commercial, TKD business to these patriotic organizations?  We're moving out of passive disrespect for the flag with good intentions to a more intentional disregard for what these patriotic organizations exist to do and who they serve.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Steve just a question in where would the Olympic athletes fall?  If I am correct on their uniforms they have the Olympic flag either embroidered, screen printed, etc.  They are sanctioned through our government and receive funding.  Also Jhoon Rhee a Tae Kwon Do pioneer also taught and probably still teaches some United States Congress people and his organization has the flag on their uniform?  He, I also believe has several commendations from Congress.  I have attached a couple of photos.  The gentleman in the photo with him was a former congressman and also an officer in the Air Force.
> 
> Just a note in that I agree with you but believe the cat was let out of the bag long ago.


It's not against the law.  I will go back and just reiterate that my intent wasn't to torpedo this thread.  Rather, it was genuinely just to share with you guys a little insight into a very common breach of flag etiquette. 

I'll also add, just for what it is, that there are other informal or unwritten guidelines.  For example, in an executive portrait (such as for the president), if present, the flag should be over the right shoulder (left as you are viewing it), and the stripes should run diagonally down toward the center of the picture (not out to the edge).  But congressmen and Senators don't  (to my knowledge) get a lowdown on flag etiquette, either.  So, there are times when I've seen "official" portraits that are contrary to this.  Doesn't make it right, and frankly, if I'm a staffer I'm not going to correct my boss on something like that, even if I know better. 

Point I'm trying to make is that being an executive in government doesn't come with a handbook that covers all of the intriquacies of flag etiquette, and we see breaches all the time. 

And, let's all remember, we're not talking about the olympics.  We're talking about a privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business.


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## dancingalone (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> I haven't looked for a "legal" definition of "patriotic organization" although I wouldn't be surprised to find one.



I googled around for 15 minutes and didn't find anything.  I consider my internet research skills to be above average.  Makes me wonder if the term isn't intentionally vague.



Steve said:


> But, perhaps you can help me out, because I really can't understand your position.  Are you seriously comparing a for-profit, commercial, athletic business to a patriotic organization such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Red Cross or the American Legion?  Have you ever been to a Legion Hall?   I am struggling to comprehend how you think there is a gray area.  It's truly not intended to be patronizing.  It's genuine confusion in the face of what just flat out doesn't make any sense to me at all.   Is there really any question about whether Kim's TKD dojang a "patriotic organization?"



I don't know that I would try to apply some measure of grading or authenticity to something as nebulous as patriotism.  I mean do we really need a test here like how beef is graded (Choice, Select, etc.)?  It seems like any such attempt would be fraught with difficulty and prone to politicization.  Without mentioning any groups, I will put forth the idea that if a group or organization, non-profit or not, says it is a patriotic one it's good enough for me.  

Furthermore, I'd really like to see a Congressional definition if it exists.  Again, I wonder if the term isn't deliberately vague and whether there is any relevant judicial issue that came before the Supreme Court about what is and isn't one.



Steve said:


> Edit:  Another question, do you understand how it's (at least) mildly offensive to compare a commercial, TKD business to these patriotic organizations?  We're moving out of passive disrespect for the flag with good intentions to a more intentional disregard for what these patriotic organizations exist to do and who they serve.



Again, I don't care to get into something like purity testing.  It's a fruitless endeavor and causes more harm than good.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> We're talking about a privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business.



Yes, but what if it's a patriotic privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business?   Just kidding.

Personally, I agree that the correct interpretation of the statute is that flags should not be put on sports uniforms. But, personally, I also think that that particular clause within the statute is outdated. For what it's worth, I like seeing the U.S. flag on U.S. Olympic athletes...to me that actually _is_ patriotic, as is the patch on our kids' doboks. But at the end of the day, I'd have to agree that Steve is technically correct.


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## WaterGal (Mar 26, 2015)

I do like uniforms being, well, uniform.  I can't help but be amused when I see people at tournaments that have 20 patches all over their uniform - "most improved", "best kicks", gold stars, dragons, "demo team" with the words on fire, etc - and a rainbow of different tape on their belt.

Our TKD color belts all wear identical plain white doboks with the school logo on it. TKD Dan/poom belts wear identical WTF-approved black lapel uniforms, also with the logo.  Mr WaterGal wears one with stripes on the arms and legs and "Master ____" embroidered on it.  When/if we got other masters (I got a couple years still...), they'll get the same.

The only patches we use are a US flag patch on the right side for black belts (which I didn't realize was a violation of the flag code - we've had a lot of police, military, and firefighter students/families and none of them ever said anything).

For the belts, we do give embroidered black belts with name and rank stripes, and instructors have "Kyobum" before their name, which is the only thing different between instructors and regular black belts in terms of dress.  We only use tape for the Little Dragons kids, because it takes them 6-12 months to complete each belt (they're expected to know all the same stuff as the regular TKD students) and they need the progress markers.

Edit: Also, no t-shirts. Unless you spilled something on your uniform 5 minutes before class or something like that, it's full uniform, always.  Even in the summer. That's what A/C is for.


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## WaterGal (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Aside: one of our former-K-Tiger instructors just returned from Korea with some white Y-neck (black trimmed) tops with black bottoms. Sharp sharp sharp!



Oh yeah, the new poomse uniforms look pretty nice.  I've been thinking of getting one for myself.  It would kinda undermine the whole "uniform" thing, though, and then there'd be the issue of who gets to wear one etc etc, so I don't know. Maybe.


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## TrueJim (Mar 26, 2015)

They do look snappy. As opposed to.... WTF WTF New Female Taekwondo Uniform Design


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 26, 2015)

Steve said:


> Makes it no less tacky.  I cringe when they drape themselves in the flag when they win an event.  If you're not a first responder or in the military, it's really a breach of flag etiquette.   But as I said, most people don't know or don't care.   Some do.



Take from USFlag.org


> No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.



So when worn to show respect, it falls under the "patriotic org" clause.


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## Manny (Mar 26, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train?
> 
> What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?
> 
> ...



Good post Sir, before to answer all your questions I will let you know waht Many thinks about teh uniform,belt,patches,etc,etc.

For me the uniform the students should wer have to be white, pristine white this couple, without any advesrtisement patch, any flag or waht ever, the uniform must be white with only the dojang patch and thats all, no other color forget about colred V-Necks in the doboks or colored lapels on karate-gis.
For kups the belts must be the acording color to the kup grade, no embroided,leterring or wahtever.

For black belt students, white uniform wiht the V-Neck in black or the lapel in black only with the dojang patch, the black belt, solid black or embroided with the name of the black belt in one side and in the other the name of the dojang, NO stripes, No stars, NO ADVERISEMENT, etc.

For the master and instructors, the same as the black belt students or I only will ad black pants.

I like the simplicity of white gi and colored belt only, period.

Nos I will answer yor questions:

1.- I don't like fancy doboks or karategis, it must be white solid white period.
2.-Don't like bars or any tipe of signs that denotes rank in the black belts.
3.-Electrical tape? c'mon tha's a cheap thing.
4.-The use of the dojang patch is good for me but nothing else, cero adverisement or what ever.

El Manny


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## Geo (Mar 26, 2015)

In our Art we like to keep it simple.

Our uniforms are plain white with our logo printed or embroidered in a large size at the back of the _dobok_ and a smaller size logo on the left front side.  The _hai_ is plain and with no marking.  We chose to wear our logo to distinguish ourselves from other martial arts school but more importantly because we respect the legacy of our Art and we are extremely proud of our school.

The student _dhee _is as per their rank, we follow the ITF rank system so its necessary to stripe a student's _dhee _ at 9th, 7th, 5th, 3rd and 1st Kup to indicate their rank and achievement.

Instructor or Dan uniforms are as per above except the uniform is a heavier gauge and has black trim on the bottom edge of the _dobok_.  Dan ranked _dhees _are embroidered with the name of our Art on one edge and the name of the student on the other edge with the appropriate stripe to denote the Dan rank.

Other Arts have fancy coloured uniforms with stripes and triangles and marking on their belts and their pants, that is their business and I respect that.  Whatever one likes to wear I guess is their business and they are to be respected for that, what is important is that they wear their chosen uniforms with "pride".

Regards


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 26, 2015)

I don't mind the flag-ish uniform of Bill Wallace below, but the Elvis uniform with boots and glasses is way over the top.  I am curious if Bill's uniform is sufficiently different from the flag that no one would be disagree with it in terms of flag protocol.  




 


And as an aside....as an outsider, it always struck me as ironic that Americans feel that disrespecting the flag is sacraligeous, but aborting a fetus is fine.  The conclusion of each issue makes sense in isolation, but you put them together and the irony is clear (IMO!).


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Yes, but what if it's a patriotic privately owned, commercially run, for-profit, sports business?   Just kidding.
> 
> Personally, I agree that the correct interpretation of the statute is that flags should not be put on sports uniforms. But, personally, I also think that that particular clause within the statute is outdated. For what it's worth, I like seeing the U.S. flag on U.S. Olympic athletes...to me that actually _is_ patriotic, as is the patch on our kids' doboks. But at the end of the day, I'd have to agree that Steve is technically correct.



You could put a line of reasoning that representing your country is a patriotic pursuit.

So even if you were private tkd on a national team.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2015)

But I don't care if there is irreverent use of a flag image. I understand why people do it and it is the good intentions that outweigh the breaking of flag rules.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> And as an aside....as an outsider, it always struck me as ironic that Americans feel that disrespecting the flag is sacraligeous, but aborting a fetus is fine.  The conclusion of each issue makes sense in isolation, but you put them together and the irony is clear (IMO!).


well, speaking just for myself, I don't think disrespecting the flag is sacriligious.   I think it's rude.  Hyperbolic generalizations to support a dubious political opinion could also be considered pretty rude, in my opinion.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> But I don't care if there is irreverent use of a flag image. I understand why people do it and it is the good intentions that outweigh the breaking of flag rules.


Ultimately, this is what people do.   As I said, if it's not that big a deal to you, so be it.   Many people don't know or don't care.   Some people check their texts on a date, even though they know it's rude.  It would drive me nuts, but if I'm not yiur date, who am I to call you out?


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## andyjeffries (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Is it important that Kup grades and Poom/Dan grades wear a different kind of uniform where you train?



We're quite relaxed about uniforms.  The only difference is that coloured belts can only wear a white collar (we had one grandfathered exception, but he's now a Dan grade).  Poom and Dan holders where a black collar (although if their only clean uniform is a white collared one, that's fine too).

Our Poom holders where a black belt.  In the UK our WTF MNA gives black belts to under 15s rather than half-red/half-black, so we do likewise so it's not a negative to joining us.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the wearing of fancy custom doboks?



I don't mind wording printed on them, Korean lettering, manufacturers adornment.  Some of the uniforms I've seen look awful and are banned (e.g. Daedo did an awful one with the Union Flag all over it - photo attached).



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on belt embroidery and bars at various grades?



On our black belts, we have our club logo at one end with the club name embroidered in English and Korean.  On the other end we have the student's name (and title if necessary) embroidered along with however many dan bars they have.



Gnarlie said:


> What are your views on the use of electrical tape to denote grade steps?



We do this for our youngest class (3-6 year olds) because they get them quite often as a motivator so asking parents to then pay for a new belt all the time would be cost-prohibitive.  Other than that class, it's a new belt every grading.



Gnarlie said:


> What about badges and printed logos /designs?



Our uniforms generally have our club logo printed on the back and the front left chest.



Gnarlie said:


> Is there a limit, and how does 'pimp my uniform' fit with the tenets of Taekwondo?



This is interesting, from previous reports I'd read on the Kukkiwon instructor course they were really angry/upset with it all - saying masters should be above that stuff.  However, when I attended in 2013 there were quite a few people with quite a few batches/embroidery/etc and nothing was said.



Gnarlie said:


> What makes a practical and popular club dobok?



Cheap and resilient!   We use J-Calicu for our club dobok and at black belt level people often choose to buy a more premium brand.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't mind the flag-ish uniform of Bill Wallace below, but the Elvis uniform with boots and glasses is way over the top.  I am curious if Bill's uniform is sufficiently different from the flag that no one would be disagree with it in terms of flag protocol.
> 
> (IMO!).



Was at a seminar with BW some 20 years ago.

He said he stopped wearing the Flag Gi when he saw some 10 year old with one.   He felt he earned his by being Champion and seeing a 10 year old with one took away the meaning.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I think the OP meant whether or not electrical tape (being cheap and nasty) is appropriate over having a specific belt to denote in between ranks.



More belts to sell = more $ to make. Tape can save $ for students and instructors and if you keep an inventory it's a lot less stuff to have on hand.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> All of the TKD dojang I've visited in the USA have the American and South Korean flags prominently displayed.  .



USTF Dojangs and many others in the USA do not fly the SK Flag. (No reason to)   In fact, ata course General Choi asked why a student had the SK Flag on his uniform. The student said because his mother was Korean to shich GC said OK (realizing he was actualy acquainted with the students parents).


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> In the first part, they are talking specifically about athletic uniforms, which a TKD dobok would be, IMO.  ................................ (emphasis mine):
> As I said before, there are some organizations that are okay to wear a flag patch, but a commercial, for profit, athletic organization just isn't a "patriotic organization."  ....



OK, read it 5 times. Could not find the part where it saysd "Steve's opinion controls."

If you Salute the USA Flag at the beginning and end of each class IMO that qualifies as a patriotic group.  So, I reject Steve's reality and substitute my own.  No need for room to interpret.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 27, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> More belts to sell = more $ to make. Tape can save $ for students and instructors and if you keep an inventory it's a lot less stuff to have on hand.


Usually our instructors charge students $5 for belts, they cost more than that though.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 27, 2015)

each to their own but I think a uniform should look like a uniform not a walking billboard.  Some folk/schools just have way to much for parches on the uniform.  
Belts with letters or words other than that of the country you live in or the language you speck do not make much sense to me either  for all you know someone at the  factory that made the belt might have had a bad day and written something other than what you think.  This happens with tattoos often.
Little stars small patches on kids uniforms are nice and show achievement but do they need to cover the whole arm or leg? 
But as I said each school has its own rules so who am i to say  it looks like garbage some of the time when it is so over done


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> OK, read it 5 times. Could not find the part where it saysd "Steve's opinion controls."
> 
> If you Salute the USA Flag at the beginning and end of each class IMO that qualifies as a patriotic group.  So, I reject Steve's reality and substitute my own.  No need for room to interpret.


Lol.  Yeah, creating your own reality is always fun.   As I mentioned before, some people reject that texting on a date is rude.  Your group might be patriotic, but come on.  Even a dog that climbs trees will never be a squirrel.  The American legion, the vfw, the American Red Cross, Kim's tkd.  One of these things is not like the others.


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## TrueJim (Mar 27, 2015)

andyjeffries said:


> Some of the uniforms I've seen look awful and are banned (e.g. Daedo did an awful one with the Union Flag all over it - photo attached).



Andy, this is the most awesome uniform *evar*! I must have one.


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## Danny T (Mar 27, 2015)

What defines an organization as being a Patriotic Organization?
What defines one as being Patriotic? If one is patriotic of ideals and does patriotic actions is one not patriotic?
If an individual performs actions for the government and is paid for such is that individual a patriot and is being patriotic? Is that person's organization a Patriotic Organization?


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 27, 2015)

Having served my country in a time of war I feel I should be able to wear the flag on my uniform if it is done in a respectable fashion and that goes for all that have served


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Having served my country in a time of war I feel I should be able to wear the flag on my uniform if it is done in a respectable fashion and that goes for all that have served



Nobody is saying you cant.


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## dancingalone (Mar 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Nobody is saying you cant.



To be clear, Steve asserted that TKD schools wearing a flag patch on their uniforms do not fall under the patriotic organization exemption and therefore is a violation of the code governing flag display, etc.  He IS saying that people can't, though to be sure no one will be fined or go to prison for it.

I don't have a vested stake in it and I'd be OK either way if someone can put forth a stronger argument, but I do need more solid documentation before I'll be convinced that any martial arts group is doing anything 'wrong' here.

Why is it so hard to find a definition of patriotic organization as it applies here to the flag code?  Perhaps the writers of the law wisely knew it was a can of worms and elected to leave it vague on purpose.  

Either way, just show me.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2015)

Danny T said:


> What defines an organization as being a Patriotic Organization?
> What defines one as being Patriotic? If one is patriotic of ideals and does patriotic actions is one not patriotic?
> If an individual performs actions for the government and is paid for such is that individual a patriot and is being patriotic? Is that person's organization a Patriotic Organization?


A list of patriotic organizations under Title 36 of the US Code:
36 U.S. Code Part B - Organizations LII Legal Information Institute
Easier to read in the above link, but if you want the source on a .gov website, you can find it all here:
OLRC Home

I really hope this helps you guys understand that your school may BE patriotic, but that doesn't make it a "patriotic organization."  If you are choosing to wear the flag patch, great.  So be it.  But, at least you'll know that there are people who will think it's a little tacky.

Edit:  I think the issue confusion is that we were looking for a definition.  When I searched for a list, I pretty quickly found my way into the US Code.  There isn't so much a definition, it seems, as there is the application for and granting of a charter.  If you apply, and are granted a charter, your organization would be included under this particular section of the US Code.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 27, 2015)

In my dojang, and in my organization, our dobok look a certain way (ie. certain patches in certain places). I make it clear that more patches (or a different color dobok are not acceptable, here). I tend to be a minimalist when it comes to patches & rank stripes for myself. I usually wear plain dobok & a belt without rank stripes for every day use, and save my "dress dobok and dress belt" for special occasions.


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## dancingalone (Mar 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> A list of patriotic organizations under Title 36 of the US Code:
> 36 U.S. Code Part B - Organizations LII Legal Information Institute
> Easier to read in the above link, but if you want the source on a .gov website, you can find it all here:
> OLRC Home



I don't think that clarifies much here, Steve.  As I understand it, Title 36 orgs are just groups that Congress generally wanted to give a public show of support for.  They are an artifact essentially.  Congress hasn't issued a new charter since 1992 and there's actually a Judiciary Committee moratorium on awarding charters, a practice that has been in effect across multiple Congresses now that have been controlled by both main political parties.  Part of the reason for the moratorium was due to controversy arising from the exclusionary membership policies practiced by some of the Title 36 organizations as well as a desire to not mislead the public into thinking that there was any significant review and oversight by Congress over these groups.

In any case, you (or someone else) would have to show me language that a patriotic organization as referenced in P.L. 94-344 specifically and only means those given Congressional charters under Title 36.  I question that linkage exists but if it's there, you'd be right of course.



Steve said:


> I really hope this helps you guys understand that your school may BE patriotic, but that doesn't make it a "patriotic organization."  If you are choosing to wear the flag patch, great.  So be it.  But, at least you'll know that there are people who will think it's a little tacky.



You thinking it tacky is one thing.  That's personal opinion and you're entitled to have one.  Saying that others are in violation of the US flag code is another.  You need more than personal opinion for that.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2015)

Lol.  As gold member said to Austin powers, "there is no pleasing you."


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## dancingalone (Mar 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> Lol.  As gold member said to Austin powers, "there is no pleasing you."



Heh.

I suspect you can't please me because you're wrong on this.  No biggie.  It's hardly important, and I'll still respect you in the morning.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2015)

Steve said:


> The American legion, the vfw, the American Red Cross, Kim's tkd.  One of these things is not like the others.



Well,  the American Red Cross serves those in need.  Never thought it was patriotic.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well,  the American Red Cross serves those in need.  Never thought it was patriotic.


You're right.  Once I found the official list of "Patriotic Organizations," it isn't on there.  National Ski Patrol is, which is kind of cool.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2015)

dancingalone said:


> I don't think that clarifies much here, Steve.  As I understand it, Title 36 orgs are just groups that Congress generally wanted to give a public show of support for.  They are an artifact essentially.  Congress hasn't issued a new charter since 1992 and there's actually a Judiciary Committee moratorium on awarding charters, a practice that has been in effect across multiple Congresses now that have been controlled by both main political parties.  Part of the reason for the moratorium was due to controversy arising from the exclusionary membership policies practiced by some of the Title 36 organizations as well as a desire to not mislead the public into thinking that there was any significant review and oversight by Congress over these groups.
> 
> In any case, you (or someone else) would have to show me language that a patriotic organization as referenced in P.L. 94-344 specifically and only means those given Congressional charters under Title 36.  I question that linkage exists but if it's there, you'd be right of course.
> 
> ...


I'll just correct some minor misinformation above, and then I promise I will step down off this dreaded soap box!  

I have really appreciated the prodding to question some of the things that I've long believed, and to dig deeper into flag etiquette and the various and sundry traditions we have in the good old USofA.   

The wiki page says that congress stopped in 1992, but this is actually incorrect.  Congress does in fact continue to grant charters under Title 36.  I found a few organizations that have been acknowledged as "patriotic organizations" within the last 10 years.  The most recent example I found in my limited time was in 2009.  Public Law 111-95, where they acknowledged the Military Officers Association of America.  http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ95/pdf/PLAW-111publ95.pdf

Regarding the linkage, I really, genuinely don't kow what more I could give you.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 27, 2015)

Back to the question, the conversation has been more focussed on how much is allowed on the dobok.  To me the frustrating part is the opposite: most schools I've seen don't allow plain doboks.  I personally hate when schools require a dobok with their name on it.  I'd rather be able to wear any plain dobok that not only feels good, but also lets me use the dobok if I move.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Back to the question, the conversation has been more focussed on how much is allowed on the dobok.  To me the frustrating part is the opposite: most schools I've seen don't allow plain doboks.  I personally hate when schools require a dobok with their name on it.  I'd rather be able to wear any plain dobok that not only feels good, but also lets me use the dobok if I move.



I can understand this view. I said in my reply that we give students a Moo Duk Kwan patch. I didn't mention that we do not require them to wear it. Most do, but there are a couple who have never put them on. No problem.


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## Hyoho (Mar 28, 2015)

In Japan everything is a uniform. Maybe better to say 'appropriate clothing'. We work and wear a suit. If its casual get together jeans and a a polo shirt. Like Budo its a community effort and spirit. No one one wants to stand out. One teacher once complained and was very embarrassed because he had to wear a white keikogi with an indigo hakama. His others were in the wash. We dress alike but by the same token when a Nanadan/Hachidan walks into a dojo his dress although the same is immaculate. We stand out in performance and technique, not by clothing. As usual its foreign countries copying Japanese clothing but never getting the full meaning of why its worn. there is always somebody that has to be different and change things. Adapt because they cant do the original.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> In Japan everything is a uniform. Maybe better to say 'appropriate clothing'. We work and wear a suit. If its casual get together jeans and a a polo shirt. Like Budo its a community effort and spirit. No one one wants to stand out. One teacher once complained and was very embarrassed because he had to wear a white keikogi with an indigo hakama. His others were in the wash. We dress alike but by the same token when a Nanadan/Hachidan walks into a dojo his dress although the same is immaculate. We stand out in performance and technique, not by clothing. As usual its foreign countries copying Japanese clothing but never getting the full meaning of why its worn. there is always somebody that has to be different and change things. Adapt because they cant do the original.


Do you have in mind the Koreans, the Brits, the Americans, the Australians or just everyone when you say "foreign countries?"  Just wondering how wide you're casting the net.


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## Hyoho (Mar 28, 2015)

Steve said:


> Do you have in mind the Koreans, the Brits, the Americans, the Australians or just everyone when you say "foreign countries?"  Just wondering how wide you're casting the net.


Korea has its own clothing taken from national dress. The belt system was devised by Kano Jigoro


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## Gnarlie (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you all for your responses so far.  What triggered the thread was I keep seeing Geup and Dan grades with ever more elaborate belt embroidery, and more and more flags, badges and paraphernalia are appearing that make the uniform less, well, uniform.

Our schools are multinational and personally, I find it rather agreeable that although we are many nationalities from many different cultures, we come together, dress the same, do the same, and learn the same things about ourselves and each other. We find out how much we have in common, instead of focusing on the factors that make us different. I love the humanity of that.

Within that context, I think it's a shame when that commonality is lost for the sake of a few vanity stripes, or some fancy gold lettering. 

I must be honest here and say that I have debated the relative merits of a British flag on my dobok next to the german and korean ones. But it might be too much. I feel that Taekwondo is more about being aware of one's humanity than one's individuality. Extraordinary expression of individuality reflects ego, which from a philosophical perspective we should be detaching ourselves from.

With regard to the electrical tape question, was just wondering! We used to use ribbon and have the student sew it onto the belt. More work for them but engenders some respect for the new grade, especially when kids do the sewing themselves!


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## Gnarlie (Mar 29, 2015)

Also, from this thread:

I learned that I have a lot in common with Truejim, it sounds like we have a very similar training situation. 

I learned a lot about the American flag and how important it is to you guys. Wow! 

Also, I'd like to as Manny what the alternative to electrical tape is?

There were also some things here relating to uniform colour and design that I never would have considered in a million years, so thanks for that!


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2015)

One should as many thick patches sewn all over your uniform as possible, layered even, it would work like a body protector!  ( actually instead of that there's some very nice specially made padded 'underwear' one can use)

Seriously though, we use electrical tape on our children's belts because we are a club not a business so we can't afford to buy new belts every time. We charge only a couple of pounds for grading so it's affordable for as many as possible and the belts are swapped rather than kept. Some children like to keep their belts so we let them and just have to absorb the cost.


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## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

I think wearing a national flag on ones uniform denotes you are on the national team?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 29, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> I think wearing a national flag on ones uniform denotes you are on the national team?



I don't know about where you are, but in the USA, any citizen is entitled to display the national flag.


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## Buka (Mar 29, 2015)

What an interesting thread. 

Steve, thanks for including the info about the flag patch. I had completely forgotten all about that. Some of us have been wearing them for forty years, which was a decade before I learned they were a breach of etiquette. I've since forgotten. I need to inform my students of this. Some wear them, some do not. They are allowed, but not mandatory.
I'm surprised you seem to have gotten resistance from posting the info. I thought it was great, again, thanks.

We originally put them on our uniforms because we were students of American Karate. As a police officer I had one on my sleeve from my entire career. There's an American flag at the front of the dojo, always has been. Fought on a U.S team back in the day, overseas. We wore those full American flag gis. Wallace was on the team as well, as a fighter/coach. The gis first showed up in 74, when the PKA broadcast their championships on American network television.
I never liked those damn gis - didn't like the fit of the pants at all. They were low riders, don't know if they still are, or if they're even made anymore. They looked kinda cool, though. At least at the time.

As for patches, one of my gis has four. The school patch, the flag, the patch of one of my student's school and a patch of a Ju-jitsu organization I'm part of. My other gi tops have two, school and flag. If a student wants to wear a patch from another organization that has been part of his life, that's fine with me. I appreciate his respect for those that helped him on his journey and like the fact he honors them.

I will always wear a flag patch on my gi, despite the breach of etiquette. It traces back to my youth, we used to stick American Flag decals on every damn thing. It was big back in the fifties, which was only a decade after WW2. Besides, being an old guy, I love my country and hate it's government. The patch is a gentle form of rabble rousing to me. 

As for uniforms, we wear black ones. You can also wear white when you make green belt, or mix and match. If you make black belt you can wear whatever you want. Like below. (My black belts from a dozen years ago). A motley group if there ever was one. But all ladies and gentleman.


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## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't know about where you are, but in the USA, any citizen is entitled to display the national flag.


I'm a Japanese resident


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## Metal (Mar 30, 2015)

This is an interesting discussion and I don't like it when people overdo it and cover their doboks with patches, embroidery and/or screen printing.

We have club/school patches at the TKD club I train at, but I never asked for one and we don't need to sew them onto our uniform anyway.

When I was a colored belt I never got/bought any of the half/half colored belts or the ones with stripes. IMO, electrical tape is fine, looks ok and does the job for the few months that people hold those kup ranks.

I have embroidery on my belt and that embroidery satisfies my needs when it comes to standing out as an individual.


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