# What is WRONG with people?!



## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefoo...ndusky-blame-Joe-Paterno-Nittany-Lions-110711

This man was allowed to victimize children for 15 years and NOBODY thought of reporting him to the authorities?!
Liek, REALLY?!

I am stumped at this line of thinking: The reputation of a school vs the wellbeing of minors - many of them, not just one or two.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 8, 2011)

Yeah this has been pissing me off all weekend since it broke.  Anyone thet knew about this and did nothing is just as guilty as Sandusky.


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## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

But what really gets me is the attitude put forth from some sources, like 'those were kids from broken homes, who would believe them'

I am seriously wondering if boys are not more at risk than girls in those shady dark voids of the human mind!


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## sfs982000 (Nov 8, 2011)

So tragic any way you look at it.  I hope everyone involved with that incident gets whats coming to them.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 8, 2011)

granfire said:


> But what really gets me is the attitude put forth from some sources, like 'those were kids from broken homes, who would believe them'I am seriously wondering if boys are not more at risk than girls in those shady dark voids of the human mind!


they said on news 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 7 boys are molested.  And only 1 in 10 are ever reported pretty sad


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## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> they said on news 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 7 boys are molested.  And only 1 in 10 are ever reported pretty sad



considering that so few are actually reported, how can they be sure?!


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## WC_lun (Nov 8, 2011)

I know it won't happen, but it is my opinion that those who knew about the molestations and did nothing should be charged with anything that happened after they knew.  Granfire, I also cannot understand the thinking behind these people's inaction.  What in this world is more important than the safety of our children?


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## Carol (Nov 8, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I know it won't happen, but it is my opinion that those who knew about the molestations and did nothing should be charged with anything that happened after they knew.  Granfire, I also cannot understand the thinking behind these people's inaction.  What in this world is more important than the safety of our children?



Money of course.  How long would this have continued if the perpetrator was just an ordinary working stiff, and not the person responsible for the influx of millions of dollars in to the university?


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## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

Carol said:


> Money of course.  How long would this have continued if the perpetrator was just an ordinary working stiff, and not the person responsible for the influx of millions of dollars in to the university?



In all fairness: It happens enough, perpetrated by the average working stiff. As stated previously: respectability is a great cover. Be a pillar of the community and you can get away with pretty much everything. 

But there is so much wrong with the timeline of the events...
I mean, you see an under aged person being - well, not to get the site on the index - cornered by an adult, you just walk out and say nothing?! I don't think I'd have it in me, most certainly not the initial reaction before I thought about things. Is that where you dangle a big whopping carrot in front of the witness? 

The whole lot of them needs to do time.


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## Nomad (Nov 8, 2011)

Excellent question.  Reminds me of the old saying that all that's required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.  There should be a lot of charges resulting from the cover-up and a lot of prominent folks should be sacked IMO.  Of course, I said the same thing when similar scandals swept through the Catholic Church, and they seem to have recovered remarkably quickly.


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## Steve (Nov 8, 2011)

There are times when we have a duty to act.  It's just that simple.  It's recognizing these times that distinguishes good men from bad men (and women).  

I can see in a situation like this that confronting Sandusky might not be the best move.  I've seen investigations fall apart because an administrator failed to keep their mouths shut and let employees know they're being investigated.  But getting some facts as you can and then contacting the police seems like a no-brainer.  It's rape, people.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 8, 2011)

Steve said:


> There are times when we have a duty to act. It's just that simple. It's recognizing these times that distinguishes good men from bad men (and women).
> 
> .


In this case more then just a moral duty to act its the Law.  Your required to contact the police or social services if you believe abuse to a minor is going on.  
The more that comes out the worse it looks.  He was told 10 years ago he was no longer allowed to bring kids on campus anymore by the athletic director.  Now if your concerned enough to tell him that then you damn well should have called the police.  The first witness is the current wide reciever coach for Penn State.  He apparently walked in on the act with Sandusky and a 10 yr old and he went and told the Athletic Director but not the police.  My first reaction to walking in on that would have been to beat Sandusky down and drag him to the first cop I saw.
Then one of the victims went to Joe PAternos house on a Sat morning and told him he was molested by Snadusky and PAterno waited until Sunday night to call his athletic director and again didnt call the police.
So many adults failed these kids all in the name of money.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 8, 2011)

Truely a thing to bring sadness and anger.  From the facts I have heard so far in the news, there is no excuse for there being no report to the police.  Sandusky belongs in jail, and his accomplices with him.  Since I don't know PA law, I don't know if Paterno can legally skate by showing he reported to his boss or not.  But morally, and with his reputation for morality, he is not in a good position.


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## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

How come in polite society child molesters are protected, when they are considered the worst scum of the earth among thieves and murderers?!


http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefoo...Paterno-exit-amid-sexual-abuse-scandal-110811
Penn State is 'pondering' Paternos exit.....
Whoop friggin do, about 2 decades too late!


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## Nomad (Nov 8, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> Truely a thing to bring sadness and anger.  From the facts I have heard so far in the news, there is no excuse for there being no report to the police.  Sandusky belongs in jail, and his accomplices with him.  Since I don't know PA law, I don't know if Paterno can legally skate by showing he reported to his boss or not.  But morally, and with his reputation for morality, he is not in a good position.



The police are saying that Paterno fulfilled his legal obligation (by passing the information up the chain of command, where it was covered up), but completely failed his moral one.


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## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2011)

granfire said:


> considering that so few are actually reported, how can they be sure?!



Most abuse doesn't come to light until the individual is an adult and they are in therapy then for something else altogether ... which usually can be caused by a chain of events and effects from that moment.

Why many don't report it is usually due to either parental pressures to suppress the event, self-shame by the child ... lord, the list goes on. There are far more reason to not report than to report, though we all want this to not be true.

"Why" is a dangerous question with unpleasant answers here.


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## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Most abuse doesn't come to light until the individual is an adult and they are in therapy then for something else altogether ... which usually can be caused by a chain of events and effects from that moment.
> 
> Why many don't report it is usually due to either parental pressures to suppress the event, self-shame by the child ... lord, the list goes on. There are far more reason to not report than to report, though we all want this to not be true.
> 
> "Why" is a dangerous question with unpleasant answers here.



The 'why nots' are easily enough to comprehend. As sad as that is.
But how do the statistics come about. If they are not reported, how can one collect data...


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## David43515 (Nov 8, 2011)

granfire said:


> How come in polite society child molesters are protected, when they are considered the worst scum of the earth among thieves and murderers?!
> 
> 
> http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefoo...Paterno-exit-amid-sexual-abuse-scandal-110811
> ...



I think maybe it`s because they`re considered the worst scum of the earth. We either don`t want to admit that someone we know could do such a thing, or we`re afraid of making such an accusation and then finding out we`re wrong. I just don`t know. It`s easy to say that it doesn`t matter and that it`s better to accuse and then be proven wrong than to say nothing and let it happen even one more time......but what would any of us really do if we suspected someone but didn`t know for sure? Would you be able to risk branding an innocent person with suspicion forever? Very tough call, one I`m thankful I haven`t had to make yet.


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## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2011)

granfire said:


> how can one collect data...



Usually surveys answered and data collected from therapeutic and correctional models.


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## granfire (Nov 8, 2011)

David43515 said:


> I think maybe it`s because they`re considered the worst scum of the earth. We either don`t want to admit that someone we know could do such a thing, or we`re afraid of making such an accusation and then finding out we`re wrong. I just don`t know. It`s easy to say that it doesn`t matter and that it`s better to accuse and then be proven wrong than to say nothing and let it happen even one more time......but what would any of us really do if we suspected someone but didn`t know for sure? Would you be able to risk branding an innocent person with suspicion forever? Very tough call, one I`m thankful I haven`t had to make yet.



I think once you catch and old guy with a young kid in the shower, there is pretty much no need to assume innocence anymore.


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## WC_lun (Nov 9, 2011)

I saw this afternoon that the two administrators who covered it up as well as losing thier job will be charged.  I did not see what the charges will be.  In all likleyhood Paterno will finish the seasin then "retire."  It is sad all the way around.  Paterno's coaching career had ethics as one of its base pillars.  Now, because he lacked the ethics to go to the police when the administrators failed to, his entire 40+ year career will forever be remembered by how it ended.  To be honest, I don't feel sorry for him.  Those kids though...so many adults failed them.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 9, 2011)

granfire said:


> But what really gets me is the attitude put forth from some sources, like 'those were kids from broken homes, who would believe them'
> 
> I am seriously wondering if boys are not more at risk than girls in those shady dark voids of the human mind!



At their Age, there is NO Bias. Both Genders are just as much at Risk.
The Number of Cases are Higher in Females if I think, though.
The Problem is that these Offenders arent being all Dark Void Human Mindy. Theyre just, how shall we say, Negatively Inclined.
And as for those who did nothing, I wouldnt be too concerned.

I used to live Two Houses down from a Pedophile, who was Released from Prison after a couple of Months.
The SHEER amount of Harassment and Violence that begot Him was so constant and relentless that I almost felt sorry for him.
These People pay the price for what theyve done, one way or another. And it all starts with the name and face getting to the News.
Now, I know that in doing nothing, they allowed more Attacks. But worse has happened.

In any case, the Media has Disclosed all this.
He will either have to disappear, or live uncomfortably for a long time.

Now, all that aside, Im not going to bleed Sympathy at them, for the same Reason You dont bleed Sympathy at every Car Accident You hear about all the Time.
Because this is One Offender.
He is not the Problem, what He is doing is the Problem.
Reduce the amount of these Cases Overall, and then we can be all Sympathetic. Until then, I say that trying to Reduce the amount of Child Sexual Abuse cases overall is vastly more Imperative.

Apologies if I sound a bit Callous - But I just dont see the point in showering every Molestation Case with Sympathy and Scorning everyone Responsible, when finding Solutions and trying to Prevent Future Cases should be a higher Priority than bashing down the Cases Individually.
If You start getting Road Traffic Accidents in a Particular Area, You try and Circumvent Future Incidents. You change the Speed Limits. You might Adjust the Road and Lights. And so forth. What do We have in place for Children? A few Watchdogs for Illegal Websites, and...? Counselors?


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## granfire (Nov 9, 2011)

I was a bit lost til that last paragraph, which I agree with.

But how do you prevent future transgressions when you don't even deal with the the acute one?
I think what gets me most in this case - aside from the morality issue - is the fact that the offender was walked in on during the act. 
If it had been a women, had the walker in asked for a turn? Or lowered himself to be decent?

I mean, this is not only a case of a bunch of kids pointing fingers!


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## Cyriacus (Nov 9, 2011)

granfire said:


> I was a bit lost til that last paragraph, which I agree with.
> 
> But how do you prevent future transgressions when you don't even deal with the the acute one?
> I think what gets me most in this case - aside from the morality issue - is the fact that the offender was walked in on during the act.
> ...



How do You prevent Future Road Accidents?
I know! You offer Sympathy to the Victims and Insult everyone who was Responsible! Yeah!
And perhaps give the Survivors Counselling. Thatll stop this from hap... Oh Wait.

...Or, You let that go to Court, and Focus on changing the Regulations and Speed Limits in that Area, possibly adding better Traffic Light Rotations.

I apologise in advance, if any of the following hits any nerves. Really, I dont intend for it to. It just comes accross a little strongly. But to be fair, try explaining this in a Passive Way, and then try to have it come accross as clearly.

In other Words, start with a Campaign to keep these Offenders from having the means to do this in the first place. How? Firstly, Encourage Parents to NOT let their Kids run amok in Town. Its all Cute and Innocent until they get Kidnapped and Molested. Then its "oh my dear god why my child i just let them go off on their own for hours on end".
Encourage Parents to, at least until theyre 14, keep their Child in Proximity to a Parent or Adult Guardian.
Secondly, Increase Surveillance in Public Restrooms (Not in the Stalls. Think about it, youll get why), Surveillance in Showers (Again, not IN the Showers. But just outside them - You know, how you go into a Shower Room, and the Showers are Offset? Well, suffice to say, Big man and Small child in one Shower? hmmm), Surveilance in Changing Rooms (Again.), and so forth. Just jack up Surveilance everywere.
Next, Awareness. Children need to grow up a touch faster than they did in the early 20th Century. In being aware of the risk of being Molested, they can be aware of possible Stalkers, and know to gain the attention of nearby People if they believe someone paying a bit too much attention to them may be a Threat.
Next, Increase Security Personell in Sports Facilities and Shopping Centers.
Lastly, teach Children to never, ever, go wandering off alone, anywere.

Note that all this is completely off the top of My head. Ive put very little thought into it. Its just an array of Ideas, and Suggestions. But its a start, and proof of concept.

This wont completely eradicate the Problem, but it makes committing the Offense a whole lot harder. And the Risk Factor goes up Exponentially.

As for the Person walking in, Yes, thats... Questionable. But think of it this way: You are a completely regular citizen. Untrained. You walk into a Room, and You see a Man who has Overpowered a Resisting Female Rape Victim, Adult. She is unable to overwhelm Him. He may have a Weapon. Whatre you going to do, run towards Him Screaming? Go Running for Help so He can bolt after You? Youre not exactly in the middle of an Office Building with Buddies nearby to Help You, or a Crowd to Bolt into. You are Alone. Change Raping to Stabbing and apply the same Logic. Same thing, more intense. Now change the Adult to a Kid. Same thing, less intense.
I, as a Martial Artist, would Intervene. 
As an Untrained Individual, it would depend on what the Rapist looked like.

As for Kids pointing Fingers, how is that Relevant? 
Hes Responsible. Yay. Now his Life is pretty ****ed. You can barely get a Job with a Record for Possessing a Tiny Amount of Marijuana, let alone Child Molestation. Even if its just the Accusation.
Now how can this be Prevented from happening to Other Children?


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## WC_lun (Nov 9, 2011)

If you walk in on a woman, child, or even man being raped, you do what you can to stop it from happening.  That means at a minimum calling the cops.  That's right, making a phone call.  In this case no one did that and is part of why so many are upset. In addition children were involved and a popular university and head coach.

I don't know if I agree with some of your reasoning, Cyriacus.  If you come across an auto accident do you not call the police or ambulance in favor of finding out how the accident happened and how to prevent it?  Outrage in this case is a good thing.  People should be outraged at the circumstance of the Penn State scandall.  It means that we all haven't become so jaded that the cover up of child rape doesn't effect us.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 9, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> If you walk in on a woman, child, or even man being raped, you do what you can to stop it from happening.  That means at a minimum calling the cops.  That's right, making a phone call.  In this case no one did that and is part of why so many are upset. In addition children were involved and a popular university and head coach.
> 
> I don't know if I agree with some of your reasoning, Cyriacus.  If you come across an auto accident do you not call the police or ambulance in favor of finding out how the accident happened and how to prevent it?  Outrage in this case is a good thing.  People should be outraged at the circumstance of the Penn State scandall.  It means that we all haven't become so jaded that the cover up of child rape doesn't effect us.



I never said They should be Relieved of Blame for doing Nothing - They are at Fault. That doesnt mean You Execute Them, is all Im saying.

As for being Jaded - Does every Suicide make Headlines?
I think You may be Reading what Im saying in the wrong Context, since You seem be Aiming mostly at Me not just diving down the Throats of anyone Involved. Im trying to look past Showering Blame on People, and Addressing Circumventing Future Molestations.


Additionally, of course YOU would Help them. But then, Youd also Help a Little Girl who got hit by a Vehicle and was laying in the middle of the Road. Anyone else remember that Incident? Point is, not everyone wants to be Helpful. Some People would prefer Inaction at someone elses Expense. Is it wrong? Yes. Should we cripple them for it? Debatable.


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## WC_lun (Nov 9, 2011)

Perhaps I am taking what you are saying out of context.  Sometimes it is hard to tell in a post online.

If a child needs help, you help.  I can understand not becoming involved in a physical manner, though I don't really agree with it.  However, if a person chooses inaction rather than doing something as simple as making a phone call, then those people are responsible for any further harm that comes to that child.  In the case of child rape, they are also responsible for any harm that comes to other children at the hands of the rapist.  I understand that we aren't all wired the same way and not everyone will do the things I think are right.  I just think not helping a child being raped is despicable and as bad as the original crime.  

I also never said execute them.  After all, I don't support capital punishment, but a very lengthy jail sentence would be very appropriate   I do believe the accused rapist and his enablers should have thier day in court.  If they are found innocent, so be it.  However, I think if the situation is as it is being reported, any person in thier right mind should be disgusted.


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## jks9199 (Nov 9, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I saw this afternoon that the two administrators who covered it up as well as losing thier job will be charged.  I did not see what the charges will be.  In all likleyhood Paterno will finish the seasin then "retire."  It is sad all the way around.  Paterno's coaching career had ethics as one of its base pillars.  Now, because he lacked the ethics to go to the police when the administrators failed to, his entire 40+ year career will forever be remembered by how it ended.  To be honest, I don't feel sorry for him.  Those kids though...so many adults failed them.



Already announced.  He's retiring at the end of the season.  As to what he should have done -- I don't know enough.  He reported the allegations.  And apparently assumed that any corrective action would be taken.  I personally think that as soon as credible accusations arose, he should have fired anyone connected -- or at least suspended them till the university and police completed their investigation.

EDIT:  I've had a chance to look into it a little more; it seems that the program wasn't directly sponsored by the school and the abuser wasn't a school employee.  That said -- the school still should have dumped the guy on the doorstep as soon as Paterno made his report.


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## jks9199 (Nov 9, 2011)

Addressing some of Cyriacus's points:

Most organizations today that deal with kids have extensive programs, procedures, and training in place to hopefully prevent child sexual abuse.  Examples include:
Boy Scouts of America Youth Protection; Virtus training from the Catholic Church; the Girl Scouts of America don't have easy to find links on it like the BSA, but mention their procedures about checking volunteers; THIS appears to be the YMCA's program on a quick read.

Most states in the US have defined certain categories of professionals who encounter children as "mandatory reporters" of any sort of child abuse, including but certainly not limited to sexual abuse.  Mandatory reporters generally include medical professionals, teachers and educators, and law enforcement officers.  I'm not sure what categories of youth coaches and volunteers qualify as mandatory reporters.  If I become aware in my professional capacity as a LEO of a child being abused, I MUST conduct an investigation and notify appropriate other authorities and resources, like Child Protective Services.

This is not something anyone today is taking lightly.  However, in the past, it was often handled differently, much to the shame of many organizations like the Church and the Boy Scouts.  Unfortunately, incidents from many years ago are still coming to light today -- especially since one public report often results in the discovery of other victims.

Any martial arts instructor or school that has youth members should have similar procedures in place, as well.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 9, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Addressing some of Cyriacus's points:
> 
> Most organizations today that deal with kids have extensive programs, procedures, and training in place to hopefully prevent child sexual abuse.  Examples include:
> Boy Scouts of America Youth Protection; Virtus training from the Catholic Church; the Girl Scouts of America don't have easy to find links on it like the BSA, but mention their procedures about checking volunteers; THIS appears to be the YMCA's program on a quick read.
> ...





WC_lun said:


> Perhaps I am taking what you are saying out of context. Sometimes it is hard to tell in a post online.
> 
> *I know what You mean *
> 
> ...



Yeah. Were on the same Page mostly.


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## Nomad (Nov 10, 2011)

This editorial sums things up nicely for me.

In part:



> Get some perspective, people.
> 
> It doesn&#8217;t matter that Joe Paterno has more victories (409) than any other Division I/FBS coach in history. Or that he has led Penn State to five undefeated seasons. Or that he has been a coach on the Nittany Lion staff since 1950, 45 of those as the head man.
> 
> ...


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## granfire (Nov 14, 2011)

More of the same.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45286426/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/#.TsGWP_Kc5Wo


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## granfire (Nov 14, 2011)

http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...view-i-shouldnt-have-showered-with-those-kids

No, Sir, the showering was not the problem.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 16, 2011)

Paterno KNEW! 
Under the Grand Jury testimony Joe Paterno admitted that he KNEW about Sandusky's inappropriate actions with a student. 





> http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...grand-jury-he-8216-knew-ina?urn=ncaaf-wp11597
> *Paterno &#8216;knew inappropriate action was taken by Jerry Sandusky with a youngster&#8217; in 2002*
> 
> By      Matt HintonWhat did Joe Paterno know, and when did he know it?
> ...



Oh yes, lets not screw up EVERYBODY'S weekend over this... besides, the kid will get over it. 
Stupid bastards! Hope they're held liable... all of those who knew and did NOTHING!

This part just pisses me off... 


> Legally, prosecutors have determined that McQueary, Paterno and Spanier  fulfilled their obligations under state law and are not expected to face  charges.


 What about failure to report a crime? What about MORALLY being responsible to at least bring this to the attention of authorities so it could be investigated? 
It's ******** and it's gotta stop!


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