# Technique I found really effective



## KangTsai (Aug 16, 2016)

Just a technique I happened to "test" a while ago (I didn't seriously injure anybody). 

When an opponent throws a straight, or has their hands up, I grab the wrist with the same side arm, and pull that wrist inward while in the same motion throwing an elbow to the face. For the movement, stick your arm out and bend it from there: basically that

Theoretically you could throw more strikes from here or swivel for a throw with you single wrist control.

Thoughts?


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## marques (Aug 16, 2016)

If I understood, I use that. But only when they have hands up. And it is more putting the arm away than wrist control.
It works. Just some opponents seem to be immune to that.  Anyway, little risk. It worths a try.

How can you grab him/her when he/she is striking? Sometimes I cannot even blink...


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## HW1 (Aug 16, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Just a technique I happened to "test" a while ago (I didn't seriously injure anybody).
> 
> When an opponent throws a straight, or has their hands up, I grab the wrist with the same side arm, and pull that wrist inward while in the same motion throwing an elbow to the face. For the movement, stick your arm out and bend it from there: basically that
> 
> ...


My style: Kali, Wing Chun, Silat
My counter: Assuming that my Wu Sau/Bantay Kamay is in place, I catch your elbow with my rear hand. I then use my pulled hand (which is now below and past your attack elbow) to move behind you or your outside, by raising and guiding your attack elbow to go past me (see Hubad Lubad). I am now in a more favorable position than you. Your move. 

Keyboard sparring is fun. I'll probably get trolled.


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## Paul_D (Aug 16, 2016)

Where did you find this to be effective, in the training/sparring or in a real life self defence situation?.


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## drop bear (Aug 16, 2016)

It is called a dutch parry or something.

You can super sneaky and double leg them when they are worrying about hand fighting.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 17, 2016)

I think many arts have that or a variation of that technique.  I first learned it during a brief exposure to Mu Duk Kwon in the mid-60s.  One would use a sort of claw action, by bending the wrist downward, with the hand open.  You would place the 'claw' so formed over the wrist, above the thumb and outer portion of the opponent's hand and pull the opponent toward you, off balancing him.  Then strikes to the head, ribs, upper arm for a take down, or many other moves can be done.  In the Hapkido I studied, we would step in and grab the opponent's wrist, and step back forcefully, moving the arm slightly upward while stepping back, and at a point, snapping the whole arm downward and backward.  You can actually put them on their head.  Or step to the outside, grabbing the opponent's wrist with the same side hand, and forcefully striking the opponent's hand on the back, and bending it to a painful position, while also stepping inside with the opposite side foot, and then stepping back with the same side foot, taking the opponent to the ground.

It probably has its biggest advantage from the opponent who has never had that happen and is totally surprised by a move that is completed before the opponent even realizes what is happening, so doesn't have time to react.

@Paul_D - Do you think the techniques will not work?  It is an interesting question in that many of the experienced MA on MT have stated they have never had to use their training in a real life situation.


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## Red Sun (Aug 17, 2016)

Eh... i may not be imagining this correctly, but how on earth did you get into range and position for a right elbow strike over the top of your left arm and his right arm, against a right straight? Pull his arm inward...

Unless you're talking about using the right hand to grab his right wrist/arm, in which case that makes alot more sense. I do something like that on bigger guys when i can't get around their arms to save my life.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Eh... i may not be imagining this correctly, but how on earth did you get into range and position for a right elbow strike over the top of your left arm and his right arm, against a right straight? Pull his arm inward...
> 
> Unless you're talking about using the right hand to grab his right wrist/arm, in which case that makes alot more sense. I do something like that on bigger guys when i can't get around their arms to save my life.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


>


If your opponent is on your level, he will take advantage on your "parry".

When the person on the left does the "parry", the person on the right can borrow his force, spin her left arm, and left hook punch (or hay-maker) on the right side of his head (before his right elbow arrives). If she leans her body back, I believe her left hook (or hay-maker) will get her opponent's head before her opponent's elbow can get her. If he moves in with his elbow strike, her hay-maker can hit on the back of his head.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 17, 2016)

HW1 said:


> My style: Kali, Wing Chun, Silat
> My counter: Assuming that my Wu Sau/Bantay Kamay is in place, I catch your elbow with my rear hand. I then use my pulled hand (which is now below and past your attack elbow) to move behind you or your outside, by raising and guiding your attack elbow to go past me (see Hubad Lubad). I am now in a more favorable position than you. Your move.
> 
> Keyboard sparring is fun. I'll probably get trolled.


I knew you were gonna try slip passed my elbow, thing; so, as you bow out, I simply lift my heel and catch you in the face.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 17, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Just a technique I happened to "test" a while ago (I didn't seriously injure anybody).
> 
> When an opponent throws a straight, or has their hands up, I grab the wrist with the same side arm, and pull that wrist inward while in the same motion throwing an elbow to the face. For the movement, stick your arm out and bend it from there: basically that
> 
> ...


This is all well and good, but remember, if you've got him, he's got you, and don't be surprised if he does some reversal, and jumps on your back, like a spider monkey.


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## Paul_D (Aug 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Do you think the techniques will not work?


Clearly it does work as that is what the OP stated.  I just sought clarification as I wasn't too clear from the post if it had worked in the dojo or in an actual self defence situation.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent is on your level, he will take advantage on your "parry".
> 
> When the person on the left does the "parry", the person on the right can borrow his force, spin her left arm, and left hook punch (or hay-maker) on the right side of his head (before his right elbow arrives). If she leans her body back, I believe her left hook (or hay-maker) will get her opponent's head before her opponent's elbow can get her. If he moves in with his elbow strike, her hay-maker can hit on the back of his head.



The punch has a longer distance to travel than the elbow. You would want to have a pretty quick hook.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The punch has a longer distance to travel than the elbow. You would want to have a pretty quick hook.


That's why you will need to

- lean back,
- create more distance,
- allow your opponent to move in,
- so your hook (or hay-maker) can hit on the back of his head.

In the real world, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with one move. To assume that your opponent will do nothing (as showing in that clip) when you "parry" is not realistic.

If you can make 2 moves while your opponent can only make 1 move, that mean you are twice as fast as your opponent. If that's the case, anything you do will work.


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## Red Sun (Aug 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


>


Aha! I was imagining alternating arms. This makes sense.


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## drop bear (Aug 18, 2016)

The concept expanded.


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## KangTsai (Aug 18, 2016)

This is really not a move in a fight, per se. Nor is it really advised against someone skilled and reactive enough.


Paul_D said:


> Where did you find this to be effective, in the training/sparring or in a real life self defence situation?.


 "Street self-defense"


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## KangTsai (Aug 18, 2016)

HW1 said:


> My style: Kali, Wing Chun, Silat
> My counter: Assuming that my Wu Sau/Bantay Kamay is in place, I catch your elbow with my rear hand. I then use my pulled hand (which is now below and past your attack elbow) to move behind you or your outside, by raising and guiding your attack elbow to go past me (see Hubad Lubad). I am now in a more favorable position than you. Your move.
> 
> Keyboard sparring is fun. I'll probably get trolled.






  So you mean this. 
1) I guarantee the elbow will still hurt like crap
2) I have control of that wrist and can let go

You're right this is fun


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## HW1 (Aug 18, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> View attachment 20063  So you mean this.
> 1) I guarantee the elbow will still hurt like crap
> 2) I have control of that wrist and can let go
> 
> You're right this is fun



I misunderstood your original post and thought you throw a strike with the opposite elbow. I will have to evaluate my counter.

That being said, have you really tried this with not just one person? Unless you have really long forearms, I can't seem to see the elbow reaching their face if you remain grabbing their wrist. Might not work especially if your opponent has longer arms than you. (Not quite so ambitious drawing as yours is attached, your illustration is great!).

I will probably modify this awesome technique by turning my grabbing hand into a hammer fist to the face. I think you'd get better success in hitting that way. YMMV.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2016)

HW1 said:


> I can't seem to see the elbow reaching their face if you remain grabbing their wrist.


Agree! The distance is not proper. You are using 1/2 of your arm length while your opponent still have his full arm length. You have to pull really hard so your opponent's head will move toward you. But since the "wrist" is not a good pulling contact point, the chance that you can pull your opponent's body forward is quite low. IMO, to pull on the "elbow joint"l followed by elbow strike will make better sense.

Also If your opponent just raises his elbow (as WC Bon Shou), he can interrupt your elbow strike. Your wrist control cannot prevent your opponent from raising his elbow joint.

In the following clip (a dirty trick in jack wrestling), the distance is more reasonable. You have 1/2 of you arm length while your opponent has no arm length at all.


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## marques (Aug 18, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the real world, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with one move. To assume that your opponent will do nothing (as showing in that clip) when you "parry" is not realistic.
> 
> If you can make 2 moves while your opponent can only make 1 move, that mean you are twice as fast as your opponent. If that's the case, anything you do will work.



That is good logic (and a common flaw in non competitive styles), but there is more than that.

Regardless the clip, that I did not watch, trained people will not react to a 'Inofensive' jab, which becomes something else In the way. And you did 2 moves when the opponent is starting the first move. If the opponent overreacts your first move, it becomes even easier. Of course, trained people will recognise that 'Inofensive' jab second time it comes...

There is psychology, or whatever, up to physics.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2016)

marques said:


> If the opponent overreacts your first move, it becomes even easier.


When you use "downward parry" on your opponent's leading arm, your opponent can

- resist (contact is established). You can then grab his wrist.
- borrow your downward force and spin his arm into a hay-maker (no contact is established). You can then wrap his arm.

IMO, when you do a "downward parry", you should also expect your opponent to respond in both ways. You will need to train counters against both responds.

Some people don't like this kind of "if you do ..., I'll do ..." training. But I just don't see any master key that can open all locks.


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## Juany118 (Aug 18, 2016)

HW1 said:


> My style: Kali, Wing Chun, Silat
> My counter: Assuming that my Wu Sau/Bantay Kamay is in place, I catch your elbow with my rear hand. I then use my pulled hand (which is now below and past your attack elbow) to move behind you or your outside, by raising and guiding your attack elbow to go past me (see Hubad Lubad). I am now in a more favorable position than you. Your move.
> 
> Keyboard sparring is fun. I'll probably get trolled.



That sounds like part of the Hubud drill and that check of the elbow would be fairly hard to pull off while your balance/structure is being thrown off by a successful wrist lock (Inosanto-Kali/WC here  )


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## Juany118 (Aug 18, 2016)

As for the OP, you are better off just doing a quick trap of that limb and striking so that the formerly trapping hand can be in a position to defend the opponent's other hand, which is coming.


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## KangTsai (Aug 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! The distance is not proper. You are using 1/2 of your arm length while your opponent still have his full arm length. You have to pull really hard so your opponent's head will move toward you. But since the "wrist" is not a good pulling contact point, the chance that you can pull your opponent's body forward is quite low. IMO, to pull on the "elbow joint"l followed by elbow strike will make better sense.
> 
> Also If your opponent just raises his elbow (as WC Bon Shou), he can interrupt your elbow strike. Your wrist control cannot prevent your opponent from raising his elbow joint.
> 
> In the following clip (a dirty trick in jack wrestling), the distance is more reasonable. You have 1/2 of you arm length while your opponent has no arm length at all.


But who would keep their arm out in that situation? If it fails, it's an arm drag for me.


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## Red Sun (Aug 19, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> View attachment 20063  So you mean this.
> 1) I guarantee the elbow will still hurt like crap
> 2) I have control of that wrist and can let go
> 
> You're right this is fun



How can i learn to draw like that!
Plz explain


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## Juany118 (Aug 19, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> But who would keep their arm out in that situation? If it fails, it's an arm drag for me.



Here is the thing.  If the person you are fighting knows what they are doing you can't simply turn a punch into an arm drag.  There is a saying I am fond of regarding the use of one hand, "control the wrist, you can control the arm, control the elbow and you control the man."  Their natural reaction is going to be withdrawing the punch, even if you didn't grab the wrist, when you do they are DEFINITELY pulling back, and putting you in as much of a spot of bother as they are in.  What you are doing works okay in sparring, so long as the other person plays along.

Tonight in class another student tried something similar to me (he was new).  They grabbed the wrist and I simply pulled back with my arm while doing a relief step, yes he still had my wrist but now he was off balance and mine to play with using 3 other limbs, I just continued the rotation started by my relief step and face planted him though.  If he was knowledgeable enough to do a relief step as well, the wrist grab would have broken of it's own accord.

I then demonstrated other things I could have done.  As noted a pseudo _bong sau_ (because the angle at the elbow is wrong but it is still a cover), If I react first I crash in with my own elbow so now it's a matter of who hits first.


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## KangTsai (Aug 19, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> How can i learn to draw like that!
> Plz explain


I'm no authority on drawing good


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## KangTsai (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Here is the thing.  If the person you are fighting knows what they are doing you can't simply turn a punch into an arm drag.  There is a saying I am fond of regarding the use of one hand, "control the wrist, you can control the arm, control the elbow and you control the man."  Their natural reaction is going to be withdrawing the punch, even if you didn't grab the wrist, when you do they are DEFINITELY pulling back, and putting you in as much of a spot of bother as they are in.  What you are doing works okay in sparring, so long as the other person plays along.
> 
> Tonight in class another student tried something similar to me (he was new).  They grabbed the wrist and I simply pulled back with my arm while doing a relief step, yes he still had my wrist but now he was off balance and mine to play with using 3 other limbs, I just continued the rotation started by my relief step and face planted him though.  If he was knowledgeable enough to do a relief step as well, the wrist grab would have broken of it's own accord.
> 
> I then demonstrated other things I could have done.  As noted a pseudo _bong sau_ (because the angle at the elbow is wrong but it is still a cover), If I react first I crash in with my own elbow so now it's a matter of who hits first.


I know a wrist grab calls for pulling back your arm immediately. I mean I can do an arm drag if they do keep it out. Again, I wouldn't use this now, more in favour of a guard sweep elbow like a video seen on this thread.


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## Juany118 (Aug 19, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I know a wrist grab calls for pulling back your arm immediately. I mean I can do an arm drag if they do keep it out. Again, I wouldn't use this now, more in favour of a guard sweep elbow like a video seen on this thread.



That's okay then but I would argue you can't drag when the opponent is also using proper footwork.  Footwork, imo, is the most overlooked part of MA training.

That said I can just say one thing from over 18 years as a LEO.  Even an untrained brawler doesn't keep their arm out.  Thing is a little alteration could make your trapping work.  Briefly trap that arm, not with a grab, and then attack with the opposite hand.   Nothing fancy, just taking one hand out of the equation to open the way for a moment.  Kinda following the three principles I follow...

Fight on the blind side
Simultaneous attack and defense (in your case trap and strike)
Never meet force with force.

So don't grab the arm just slap it down so that same hand comes back up to defend while striking with the other.  Worse that happens?  The strike with the other hand becomes a block for the hand you didn't trap.  Best it rings their bell.  This is of course only if striking is the goal.


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## KangTsai (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That's okay then but I would argue you can't drag when the opponent is also using proper footwork.  Footwork, imo, is the most overlooked part of MA training.
> 
> That said I can just say one thing from over 18 years as a LEO.  Even an untrained brawler doesn't keep their arm out.  Thing is a little alteration could make your trapping work.  Briefly trap that arm, not with a grab, and then attack with the opposite hand.   Nothing fancy, just taking one hand out of the equation to open the way for a moment.  Kinda following the three principles I follow...
> 
> ...


I disagree that footwork is overlooked in Martial Arts. European sword fighting, boxing, taekwondo, muay Thai etc.


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## drop bear (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Here is the thing.  If the person you are fighting knows what they are doing you can't simply turn a punch into an arm drag.  There is a saying I am fond of regarding the use of one hand, "control the wrist, you can control the arm, control the elbow and you control the man."  Their natural reaction is going to be withdrawing the punch, even if you didn't grab the wrist, when you do they are DEFINITELY pulling back, and putting you in as much of a spot of bother as they are in.  What you are doing works okay in sparring, so long as the other person plays along.
> 
> Tonight in class another student tried something similar to me (he was new).  They grabbed the wrist and I simply pulled back with my arm while doing a relief step, yes he still had my wrist but now he was off balance and mine to play with using 3 other limbs, I just continued the rotation started by my relief step and face planted him though.  If he was knowledgeable enough to do a relief step as well, the wrist grab would have broken of it's own accord.
> 
> I then demonstrated other things I could have done.  As noted a pseudo _bong sau_ (because the angle at the elbow is wrong but it is still a cover), If I react first I crash in with my own elbow so now it's a matter of who hits first.



If they have your wrist you can generally still throw elbows. But otherwise hand fighting is its own game.


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## HW1 (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That sounds like part of the Hubud drill and that check of the elbow would be fairly hard to pull off while your balance/structure is being thrown off by a successful wrist lock (Inosanto-Kali/WC here  )


In this situation, which was what I originally envisioned:
Attacker - L hand to their Lower R side holding your R wrist (like chambered for Heaven 6). I don't see this as a lock. R horizontal elbow thrown.
Defender: R hand past the attacker's R Lower side, under their thrown elbow. The initial pull might throw your balance, but stopping the elbow with your L hand or vertical arm should counteract your forward motion. Now go to hubad. I've tried this with a partner yesterday and with his L arm crossed over his body throwing an elbow, there was no way he could stop my R hand from going Up and Back (tan sau) to keep me from passing his elbow.

Granted just because it worked on one person doesn't mean it will work on everyone, especially to those with a different style.

Minor pet peeve: It's spelled "hubad" not "hubud". (Native Filipino speaker here )


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## Juany118 (Aug 19, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I disagree that footwork is overlooked in Martial Arts. European sword fighting, boxing, taekwondo, muay Thai etc.


I mean by your average practitioner, not the arts themselves.  Sometimes practitioners get too tied up in the attacks and not the footwork that makes em work.

Apologies.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> you can't drag when the opponent is also using proper footwork.


When your opponent steps in and attack you, you also step in and attack him at the same time, the "footwork" will have little or no meaning at that moment. If you can force/bait your opponent to "commit" on his attack, you don't have to worry about his "footwork".


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## Juany118 (Aug 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your opponent steps in and attack you, you also step in and attack him at the same time, the "footwork" will have little or no meaning at that moment. If you can force/bait your opponent to "commit" on his attack, you don't have to worry about his "footwork".



The thing is even if you bait a strike they aren't going to keep their arm out so that a simple wrist grab (as opposed to a wrist lock) can be turned into a grab.  When punches meet resistance they get pulled back. If you grab that wrist it is simply instinct to step back.  If the person has some skill they may also step in.

Now doing a bonafide lock, that provides different options and what I am speaking about doesn't apply, but in my experience all a wrist grab does, typically is result in both you and your opponent having one limb out of the fight equation.  You either keep fighting with 3 limbs or have what amounts to tug of war.


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## drop bear (Aug 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The thing is even if you bait a strike they aren't going to keep their arm out so that a simple wrist grab (as opposed to a wrist lock) can be turned into a grab.  When punches meet resistance they get pulled back. If you grab that wrist it is simply instinct to step back.  If the person has some skill they may also step in.
> 
> Now doing a bonafide lock, that provides different options and what I am speaking about doesn't apply, but in my experience all a wrist grab does, typically is result in both you and your opponent having one limb out of the fight equation.  You either keep fighting with 3 limbs or have what amounts to tug of war.



No if you have their arm then you have the advantage. Dont think that them latched on to your arm is a fifty/fifty.


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## Tez3 (Aug 20, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> How can i learn to draw like that!
> Plz explain



it's good! Much easier to understand with a drawing.


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## Juany118 (Aug 20, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> it's good! Much easier to understand with a drawing.


It certainly did.  Initially I thought he was talking about a traditional trap with one hand and a strike with the other elbow.  The picture definitely helped to illustrate the maneuver in question.


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## Paul_D (Aug 20, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> This is really not a move in a fight, per se. Nor is it really advised against someone skilled and reactive enough.
> 
> "Street self-defense"


Thanks

Well my thoughts would be if it works for you in that context then it works for you in that context, doesn't mean it will work for others or for you in other contexts though.

And next time, don't unitl they throw a punch ;-)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 20, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> all a wrist grab does, typically is result in both you and your opponent having one limb out of the fight equation.  You either keep fighting with 3 limbs or have what amounts to tug of war.


The difference is if you grab on your opponent's wrist, you can guide his arm away from your attacking path, so when you move in, his arm won't give you any trouble. Your opponent can't do that to you. Your opponent will have no control over when you will release your grip. So the situation is not equal.

The wrist grab is an excellent set up for

- head lock,
- under hook,
- elbow on the face,
- punch on the head,
- kick to the body,
- ...

What you are looking for is something further beyond that wrist grip.

.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Here is Tim means setting up that elbow like a boss.


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## Juany118 (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The difference is if you grab on your opponent's wrist, you can guide his arm away from your attacking path, so when you move in, his arm won't give you any trouble. Your opponent can't do that to you. Your opponent will have no control over when you will release your grip. So the situation is not equal.
> 
> The wrist grab is an excellent set up for
> 
> ...



I know you are looking for something beyond that, but in my experience, that "beyond" is only possible if you go beyond a simple grab.  As I said earlier a simple "grab" works if you are simultaneously doing something else with the other hand, in essence you are performing a trap.   You can then follow up with all the techniques you mentioned.

My response was limited only to the idea you can turn a "grab" it into a simple "drag" (his word).  If you want to do that, only that, an not have it become a tug of war then you need to turn the "grab" into a "lock" (skill/speed being equal or close to it of course).


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I know you are looking for something beyond that, but in my experience, that "beyond" is only possible if you go beyond a simple grab.  As I said earlier a simple "grab" works if you are simultaneously doing something else with the other hand, in essence you are performing a trap.   You can then follow up with all the techniques you mentioned.
> 
> My response was limited only to the idea you can turn a "grab" it into a simple "drag" (his word).  If you want to do that, only that, an not have it become a tug of war then you need to turn the "grab" into a "lock" (skill/speed being equal or close to it of course).



No. It gives you control of a whole side of their body. 

It is not just control of their arm.  For example with the elbow. If i have your wrist. I can let go and drill you in the head before you can get your hand free to block. 

You can't pull the same trick with me because you have to break wrist control which takes a second or so. 

There is a difference hand fighting a gumby who is hanging off your arm for something to do.  And a guy with some training who is setting you up.


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