# STOP THE TAKEDOWN! - Wing Chun / JKD / Tai Chi



## kung fu fighter (Oct 20, 2014)

How do you stop a double leg take down?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2014)

*How do you stop a double leg take down?* 

The 

- conservative approach is to use "double under hooks" to prevent your opponent from coming any closer.
- aggressive approach is to use "&#25779;(Qin) - downward pulling" to let your opponent to "kiss the ground".


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## drop bear (Oct 21, 2014)

Oh look at that same vid. And same advice from me.

Sprawl, cross face,over hook.

I disagree with the half sprawl by the way. Sprawl as much as you need to so you don't end up on your back. If he face dumps into the ground that will only benefit you. You are not Immobile there. You can circle or get up very easily.


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## Buka (Oct 21, 2014)

_"How do you stop a double leg take down?"_

I sprawl.


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## LFJ (Oct 21, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> How do you stop a double leg take down?



Saw this video a while ago. I don't recall any of them discussing PREventative measures like distance management or mobility. They just start from the scenario of a guy down around their waist hugging their legs. 

Grapplers learn to manage distance and timing to go from outside striking range, to inside for the shoot. It's important in the other role as a striker to also manage distance, timing, and have evasive footwork to avoid the opportunity of being shot on successfully in the first place. I think these things are of primary importance, before we get to what we would do if someone shoots on us.

That said, if it does happen, good VT structure with elbows down to prevent them getting under you along with a well-practiced side sprawl is a good, tried-and-true method; hips pressed forward, elbows in and down. In any case don't stand right in front of them and go straight back in line with their momentum. We learn this early in basic _seung-ma | teui-ma_ drills. 

Some of those guys tried staying face-on and using grappling-like ideas against their force. That's like a bullfighter playing the bull's game, rather than moving his ***!


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 21, 2014)

LFJ said:


> Saw this video a while ago. I don't recall any of them discussing PREventative measures like distance management or mobility. They just start from the scenario of a guy down around their waist hugging their legs.



The JKD guy touched on those aspects.

I imagine preventing the shot with distance management could be a bit tricky for the WC guys, since normal WC fighting range is in close - ideal distance for a wrestler to shoot from.


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## LFJ (Oct 21, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I imagine preventing the shot with distance management could be a bit tricky for the WC guys, since normal WC fighting range is in close - ideal distance for a wrestler to shoot from.



Like grapplers have strategies for going from out of range into theirs, we have strategies for going from out of range into ours. One of our goals when we get into our range is to be turning our opponent, or letting them turn themselves as they try to recover and overshoot, as we unload a continual assault until the finish. In theory, this should make it difficult for them to counter effectively or go for a takedown, since they'll be busy trying to recover from being turned and off balance. But yeah, that takes skill and doesn't always work out as we'd hope. It'd be much trickier for the WC guys who have only a chain punching strategy (no strategy), or seek arms to stick to and over-trap (poor strategy).


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## Callen (Oct 21, 2014)

LFJ said:


> Like grapplers have strategies for going from out of range into theirs, we have strategies for going from out of range into ours. One of our goals when we get into our range is to be turning our opponent, or letting them turn themselves as they try to recover and overshoot, as we unload a continual assault until the finish. In theory, this should make it difficult for them to counter effectively or go for a takedown, since they'll be busy trying to recover from being turned and off balance. But yeah, that takes skill and doesn't always work out as we'd hope. It'd be much trickier for the WC guys who have only a chain punching strategy (no strategy), or seek arms to stick to and over-trap (poor strategy).



This is a great post with some helpful solutions. Ideally, we should use distance management at all times. Anyone can go for a takedown so we have to always be aware of our space while we position and enter. If someone breaks your distance and rhythm to make it inside for the double-leg, sprawling with fence pressure is very effective.


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## Mephisto (Oct 21, 2014)

This is more "theory" and "concepts" from the martial arts community that refuses to just go and learn a bit of grappling. These guys need to stop talking and get some Bjj white belts or 6 month wrestlers to come at them with a double leg. These guys are all pretty experienced so if their "concepts" are sound they should be able to stop a relatively inexperienced grappler from getting the take down. Once they can successfully stop newb grapplers they can attempt to move up the chain to more challenging grapplers. What we see in these videos are poor attempt at a double leg given in a compliant fashion, I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to stop a compliant attacker that doesn't know how to do a double leg but that doesn't make them effective. We don't see boxers making anti grappling videos or Muay thai fighters trying to anti grapple it seems these guys generally respect grapplers and go to them to learn how to stop takedowns, rather than to try to use a system based on striking that wasn't intended to stop a takedown for such a technique. Any system can simply range out and step back as the shoot comes, the problem is that a double leg doesn't come from five feet away, you likely won't have time to stop it, all you can do is learn to grapple and sprawl and do damage control to avoid the worst scenario. Yeah I know iizzo has a wrestling background, so why doesn't he just teach these guys to sprawl, he seems to ignore the fact that a wrestler who trains takedowns all day and is good at it will eventually take you down. Range is a luxury and it's very difficult to maintain with someone who knows how to take it from you. Even is close trapping range a takedown can happen very quickly you're that much closer to grappling range. Until these guys actually show video of them successfully preventing being taken down by someone who at least knows a little about a proper takedown their videos will remain pointless.


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## K-man (Oct 21, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> This is more "theory" and "concepts" from the martial arts community that refuses to just go and learn a bit of grappling. *These guys need to stop talking and get some Bjj white belts or 6 month wrestlers to come at them with a double leg.* These guys are all pretty experienced so if their "concepts" are sound they should be able to stop a relatively inexperienced grappler from getting the take down. Once they can successfully stop newb grapplers they can attempt to move up the chain to more challenging grapplers. What we see in these videos are poor attempt at a double leg given in a compliant fashion, I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to stop a compliant attacker that doesn't know how to do a double leg but that doesn't make them effective. We don't see boxers making anti grappling videos or Muay thai fighters trying to anti grapple it seems these guys generally respect grapplers and go to them to learn how to stop takedowns, rather than to try to use a system based on striking that wasn't intended to stop a takedown for such a technique. Any system can simply range out and step back as the shoot comes, the problem is that a double leg doesn't come from five feet away, you likely won't have time to stop it, all you can do is learn to grapple and sprawl and do damage control to avoid the worst scenario. Yeah I know iizzo has a wrestling background, so why doesn't he just teach these guys to sprawl, he seems to ignore the fact that a wrestler who trains takedowns all day and is good at it will eventually take you down. Range is a luxury and it's very difficult to maintain with someone who knows how to take it from you. Even is close trapping range a takedown can happen very quickly you're that much closer to grappling range. Until these guys actually show video of them successfully preventing being taken down by someone who at least knows a little about a proper takedown their videos will remain pointless.


I think this is a rude put down. If you were to say get some high profile WC people together and go consult some of the top BJJ people, I could agree. (For all I know they may have already done that.) That way they may be able to develop top solutions for the situations they wish to counter. Preventing take downs against BJJ white belt is dumb idea, about as clever as saying they should just learn to grapple.
:asian:


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 21, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> This is more "theory" and "concepts" from the martial arts community that refuses to just go and learn a bit of grappling. These guys need to stop talking and get some Bjj white belts or 6 month wrestlers to come at them with a double leg.



Izzo actually has a wrestling background (I don't know why he only did the feeding for one demonstration instead of all of them) and has previously put up video of himself working with very skilled wrestlers.


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## kung fu fighter (Oct 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



I learnt "&#25779;(Qin) - downward pulling" to let your opponent to "kiss the ground" during my tai chi days to stop the double leg take down, and it's good, but I was asking specificly about wing chun techniques and strategies.



LFJ said:


> Like grapplers have strategies for going from out of range into theirs, we have strategies for going from out of range into ours. One of our goals when we get into our range is to be turning our opponent, or letting them turn themselves as they try to recover and overshoot, as we unload a continual assault until the finish. In theory, this should make it difficult for them to counter effectively or go for a takedown, since they'll be busy trying to recover from being turned and off balance. But yeah, that takes skill and doesn't always work out as we'd hope. It'd be much trickier for the WC guys who have only a chain punching strategy (no strategy), or seek arms to stick to and over-trap (poor strategy).



I agree! One strategy that's embeddded into my WCK  is I use saam gok ma to distroy the grappler's lower triangle to uproot his base.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> but I was asking specificly about wing chun techniques and strategies.



 When you use WC Fu Shou to re-direct your opponent's face punch, you are using exactly the same principle as "&#25779;(Qin) - downward pulling".

- borrow your opponent's incoming force (force A),
- add your own force (A + B > A),
- alter/redirect the direction of incoming force (change forward vector to forward-downward vector),
- lead your opponent into the emptiness (help your opponent to kiss the ground).

If your opponent wants to go low, you will help him to go even lower than he truly wants to.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> If you were to say get some high profile WC people together and go consult some of the top BJJ people, I could agree. (For all I know they may have already done that.) That way they may be able to develop top solutions for the situations they wish to counter. Preventing take downs against BJJ white belt is dumb idea, about as clever as saying they should just learn to grapple.
> :asian:


I have always believed that if you can beat up all

- kid in elementary school,
- young boys in junior high,
- adult boys in senior high,

you will develop some dependable MA skill. If you try with college students to start with, you may get beaten up badly, lose your confidence, and quit. IMO, it's better to start from easy and go into hard slowly. This way, your "take down resistance" ability can be developed slowly and that's a good thing.


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## K-man (Oct 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have always believed that if you can beat up all
> 
> - kid in elementary school,
> - young boys in junior high,
> ...


You can easily beat up the little kids and that can give you a false sense of security. If you start with the big kids (top grapplers) you might just learn something valuable.
:asian:


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## Marnetmar (Oct 21, 2014)

Can we please stop using terms like THE TAKEDOWN/THE GRAPPLER like they're these mystical ideas from another dimension? 

I say this not only because it's annoying, but because the further you distance yourself from a certain set of techniques/create a distance between those techniques and you/the more foreign you make them/whatever words you want to use, the less accurate your perception of them, and the context in which they occur, will be and the less accurate of an idea you'll have against how to defend against them.

I know I'm not really contributing anything to the conversation here but I think I know enough to say that the idea that the only thing a grappler does to take you down is shoot in from fifty feet away is ludicrous.


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## geezer (Oct 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> You can easily beat up the little kids and that can give you a false sense of security. If you start with the big kids (top grapplers) you might just learn something valuable.
> :asian:



Like this?

Kramer Dominates the Dojo - YouTube


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## Mephisto (Oct 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> I think this is a rude put down. If you were to say get some high profile WC people together and go consult some of the top BJJ people, I could agree. (For all I know they may have already done that.) That way they may be able to develop top solutions for the situations they wish to counter. Preventing take downs against BJJ white belt is dumb idea, about as clever as saying they should just learn to grapple.
> :asian:


Preventing take downs against a white belt is a start, that's all I'm suggesting. Sitting around and theorizing doesn't mean anything if you don't test your theories. Do you really think these guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler? Sorry to upset the wc royal court but they are not beyond question. If anything anti grappling is disrespectful to all of the grappling arts as a whole. It's ridiculous to think you can learn one or two moves or "concepts" that can stop someone who devotes all of their training time to take downs. What would you think about a BJJ guy teaching how to out trap a wc guy in trapping range?


Tony Dismukes said:


> Izzo actually has a wrestling background (I don't know why he only did the feeding for one demonstration instead of all of them) and has previously put up video of himself working with very skilled wrestlers.


Yeah izzos wrestling and Leo background are the only things that gain him any credibility. Honestly I like his ideas, I'm just saying lets see some action and less talk. I really don't have anything against wc and think it has some fair points. I just don't like all the ant-grappling, anti-boxing, and anti this and that without evidence to prove what they propose has any credibility. It's the Internet and they can say what they want, but questions can't be stopped and should be considered.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> You can easily beat up the little kids and that can give you a false sense of security. If you start with the big kids (top grapplers) you might just learn something valuable.
> :asian:


I didn't say just to beat up 1 kid. I said to beat up the all elementary school kids. If you can step and crash 10,000 bugs on the ground, you may have developed something. I also didn't say just stop there. That's just a starting point but not an ending point.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Can we please stop using terms like THE TAKEDOWN/THE GRAPPLER like they're these mystical ideas from another dimension?
> 
> I say this not only because it's annoying, but because the further you distance yourself from a certain set of techniques/create a distance between those techniques and you/the more foreign you make them/whatever words you want to use, the less accurate your perception of them, and the context in which they occur, will be and the less accurate of an idea you'll have against how to defend against them.
> 
> I know I'm not really contributing anything to the conversation here but I think I know enough to say that the idea that the only thing a grappler does to take you down is shoot in from fifty feet away is ludicrous.


Which term do you suggest? We can use 

- "throw" to replace "takedown".
- "wrestler" to replace "grappler".

You are right the throw (or takedown) is more than just "single leg" and "double legs". There are more than 60 different categories of throw and more than 400 different throws. Even the "single leg", there are more than 20 different ways to execute it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 21, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> Do you really think these guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler?



Nope, but I haven't seen them claim they could either.

Do I think they could avoid being taken down by a BJJ white belt or a low-level wrestler or a random grappler of the caliber they are likely to encounter in a street self defense situation long enough use their striking (or draw a weapon)?  Sure. Unlike the practitioners in some of the other "anti-grappling" videos Hanzou has posted, these guys seem to at least understand the basics of how takedowns work and how to realistically counter them and they seem to understand the importance of pressure testing. They may not be ready for the UFC, but their takedown defense is probably adequate for most street scenarios. (I'm just guessing here, because Izzo is the only one of the bunch I've seen actually practicing live, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)

Now, if they were touting the techniques they demoed as a magical talisman that would enable strikers to "fear no grappler", then I would agree they were being ignorant, arrogant, and disrespectful. I didn't get the impression that was their intention.


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## drop bear (Oct 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I didn't say just to beat up 1 kid. I said to beat up the all elementary school kids. If you can step and crash 10,000 bugs on the ground, you may have developed something. I also did say just stop there. That's just a starting point but not an ending point.




Cool. I am going to the nearest elementary school right now.


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## K-man (Oct 21, 2014)

geezer said:


> Like this?
> 
> Kramer Dominates the Dojo - YouTube


Yep! Pretty much as I was thinking.


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## K-man (Oct 21, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> Preventing take downs against a white belt is a start, that's all I'm suggesting. Sitting around and theorizing doesn't mean anything if you don't test your theories. Do you really think these guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler? Sorry to upset the wc royal court but they are not beyond question. If anything anti grappling is disrespectful to all of the grappling arts as a whole. It's ridiculous to think you can learn one or two moves or "concepts" that can stop someone who devotes all of their training time to take downs. What would you think about a BJJ guy teaching how to out trap a wc guy in trapping range?


Preventing takedowns against a BJJ white belt is a total waste of time and a calculated insult against anyone training WC and looking at preventing a shoot. I was not suggesting that the WC guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler but they could be taught by one. Perhaps you should read my previous post again. 

Oh, for the record so that *Steve* won't need to post it again ... I have very little knowledge of WC. I am just a 'fan'.


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## drop bear (Oct 21, 2014)

All fun aside I think the point being made is it is good to train with top level grapplers. But if you can't stop a beginner grappler that is when you know your defence needs work.

Buy the way those school kids slap hard and fight dirty.

I am not trying that one again.


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## K-man (Oct 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which term do you suggest? We can use
> 
> - "throw" to replace "takedown".
> - "wrestler" to replace "grappler".
> ...


Can I humbly suggest that takedown is the correct term that is all embracing. It includes throws. For example in Aikido there are numerous takedowns but only one throw.
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But if you can't stop a beginner grappler that is when you know your defence needs work.


Agree!

If a not too pretty girl doesn't want to go out with you, what kind of chance that a pretty girl will accept your date?

When you were young and started your 1st date, you might want to date a girl who was not so pretty. This way, you will build up your confidence. After you have some self-confidence, you may have more courage to date a much pretty girl. Even if that self-confidence may be just false confidence, it's still better than no confidence at all.


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## K-man (Oct 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree!
> 
> If a not too pretty girl doesn't want to go out with you, what kind of chance that a pretty girl will accept your date?
> 
> When you were young and started your 1st date, you might want to date a girl who was not so pretty. This way, you will build up your confidence. After you have some self-confidence, you may have more courage to date a much pretty girl. Even if that self-confidence may be just false confidence, it's still better than no confidence at all.


Um, no. Just no!
:ladysman:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> Can I humbly suggest that takedown is the correct term that is all embracing. It includes throws. For example in Aikido there are numerous takedowns but only one throw.
> :asian:



There is only one Chinese word "&#25684;(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground. 






The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion". 

The term 

- "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you". 
- "takedown" doesn't imply that at all.

This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?


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## drop bear (Oct 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree!
> 
> If a not too pretty girl doesn't want to go out with you, what kind of chance that a pretty girl will accept your date?
> 
> When you were young and started your 1st date, you might want to date a girl who was not so pretty. This way, you will build up your confidence. After you have some self-confidence, you may have more courage to date a much pretty girl. Even if that self-confidence may be just false confidence, it's still better than no confidence at all.



That is backwards for dating. Go after the pretty girl because everybody else is going after the not too pretty one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> That is backwards for dating. Go after the pretty girl because everybody else is going after the not too pretty one.



My 1st girl was not a very pretty one. During our 1st date, she got on top of me and kissed me. That 1st kiss gave me my lifetime self-confidence. :ladysman:


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## K-man (Oct 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is only one Chinese word "&#25684;(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty much anything that puts your opponent on the ground is a takedown.
:asian:


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## Kwan Sau (Oct 22, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> How do you stop a double leg take down?



Hit em as hard as you can, then...hope for the best.


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## Kwan Sau (Oct 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is only one Chinese word "&#25684;(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.
> The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".
> The term
> - "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you".
> ...



What goes up, must eventually come down...so yes I would call that a throw/takedown...:hmm:

And then the earth can punch them


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I didn't say just to beat up 1 kid. I said to beat up the all elementary school kids. If you can step and crash 10,000 bugs on the ground, you may have developed something. I also didn't say just stop there. That's just a starting point but not an ending point.



How many 5 year olds could you take if they all swarmed you at once? : AskReddit


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## K-man (Oct 22, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> How many 5 year olds could you take if they all swarmed you at once? : AskReddit


Man, you are sick.


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## Eric_H (Oct 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My 1st girl was not a very pretty one. During our 1st date, she got on top of me and kissed me. That 1st kiss gave me my lifetime self-confidence. :ladysman:


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## wtxs (Oct 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is an "upward motion". _*Will you call this takedown?*_



No ,,, I call it "throwdown"


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> How many 5 year olds could you take if they all swarmed you at once? : AskReddit




LiveLeak.com - Underage Thieves Robbing People in Brazil


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## Mephisto (Oct 22, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nope, but I haven't seen them claim they could either.
> 
> Do I think they could avoid being taken down by a BJJ white belt or a low-level wrestler or a random grappler of the caliber they are likely to encounter in a street self defense situation long enough use their striking (or draw a weapon)?  Sure. Unlike the practitioners in some of the other "anti-grappling" videos Hanzou has posted, these guys seem to at least understand the basics of how takedowns work and how to realistically counter them and they seem to understand the importance of pressure testing. They may not be ready for the UFC, but their takedown defense is probably adequate for most street scenarios. (I'm just guessing here, because Izzo is the only one of the bunch I've seen actually practicing live, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)
> 
> Now, if they were touting the techniques they demoed as a magical talisman that would enable strikers to "fear no grappler", then I would agree they were being ignorant, arrogant, and disrespectful. I didn't get the impression that was their intention.


Keep in mind that a person in BJJ can be a whitebelt in Bjj for more than a couple of years. A white belt that has been training seriously can pose quite a challenge for those unaccustomed to grappling. In addition, a Bjj white belt is a far cry from an untrained person on the street, perhaps I could have specified "three stripe white belt" but I don't think all schools use the same system. Can you repost the video of  iizzo training alive? I must have overlooked it.


K-man said:


> Preventing takedowns against a BJJ white belt is a total waste of time and a calculated insult against anyone training WC and looking at preventing a shoot. I was not suggesting that the WC guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler but they could be taught by one. Perhaps you should read my previous post again.
> 
> Oh, for the record so that *Steve* won't need to post it again ... I have very little knowledge of WC. I am just a 'fan'.


not sure how it's a waste of time? Or an insult, see my above comment. In Bjj a white belt isn't meant as a pejorative term, and many outside of the Bjj community may be surprised just how much skill a white belt (2-3 stripe) can have. Of course they could learn from a top level grappler, but instead they bring in guys with no grappling experience to theorize. 



drop bear said:


> All fun aside I think the point being made is it is good to train with top level grapplers. But if you can't stop a beginner grappler that is when you know your defence needs work.
> 
> Buy the way those school kids slap hard and fight dirty.
> 
> I am not trying that one again.



thats all I was saying! Thank you!



Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is only one Chinese word "&#25684;(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quit being pedantic, we all know what the topic is here. But we are all very impressed by how much you know!


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 22, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> Keep in mind that a person in BJJ can be a whitebelt in Bjj for more than a couple of years. A white belt that has been training seriously can pose quite a challenge for those unaccustomed to grappling. In addition, a Bjj white belt is a far cry from an untrained person on the street, perhaps I could have specified "three stripe white belt" but I don't think all schools use the same system.



Yep. Being a BJJ brown belt I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that most BJJers are way better at the ground game than at takedowns. Most 3-stripe white belts are no better than mediocre at takedowns unless they have prior wrestling background. 



Mephisto said:


> Can you repost the video of  iizzo training alive? I must have overlooked it.



Here you go. The guys do eventually get the takedown almost every time, although he would probably have a chance to land some strikes first. Still, the guys he's working with are significantly better with their takedown skills than most BJJ white or blue belts. I give Izzo credit for getting in there and testing his theories and I'd say he demonstrates good enough takedown defense for most street self-defense purposes. It's not good enough for a high-level MMA or grappling match, but it's better than I see from a lot of WC guys.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. Being a BJJ brown belt I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that most BJJers are way better at the ground game than at takedowns. Most 3-stripe white belts are no better than mediocre at takedowns unless they have prior wrestling background.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go. The guys do eventually get the takedown almost every time, although he would probably have a chance to land some strikes first. Still, the guys he's working with are significantly better with their takedown skills than most BJJ white or blue belts. I give Izzo credit for getting in there and testing his theories and I'd say he demonstrates good enough takedown defense for most street self-defense purposes. It's not good enough for a high-level MMA or grappling match, but it's better than I see from a lot of WC guys.



Harps on a bit about not being allowed to hit.


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Harps on a bit about not being allowed to hit.



As he should, since WC's defense requires _offense_. Two things I noticed. 1. He gave up that right leg a bit easily to the big guy, but then again the guy was fast, strong and had a huge reach advantage. 2. He restricted himself to pure defense. 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if he mixed in a bit of _offense_ --not just striking, but offensive _grappling_ that used some WC concepts or energy. And it would be interesting to see how he'd handle himself if he let it continue down to the mat for a bit too.

Maybe he'd have to pad-up the wrestlers first (so he could add striking) and start-off with guys more or less in his own weight class. Also, he'd have to go way beyond the traditional concept of what WC is. I've seen some WC guys apply arm-drags, clinch throws, duck-unders and so on. Well maybe not _orthodox_ WC guys. But Izzo has never worried about _that _garbage anyway. And in my lineage at least, the duck-under can be related to Biu Tze concepts.

Anyway love Izzo or hate him, you've got to admire his spirit. He really wants to evolve his WC and keep it real.


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## yak sao (Oct 22, 2014)

geezer said:


> I've seen some WC guys apply arm-drags, clinch throws, duck-unders and so on..... And in my lineage at least, the duck-under can be related to Biu Tze concepts.



And I see the arm drag as an application of sau jong and clinch throws as an application of the hacking elbows section of CK


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## dlcox (Oct 22, 2014)

*Yongchun Defense Against Double Leg Takedown:*

This isn't the best example of the movement but will suffice. This is from Bao Hua Lian Yongchun,  ?????Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Siu Lim Tao - YouTube at the 0:41 mark is a drop down to the Da Fan Che Shou (Big Chariot Hands) technique. Da Fan Che Shou is essentially Double Underhooks and the drop is a follow through to a technique commonly called a Rice Bale. How the technique works is once the underhooks are set, the opponents head will be under your armpit and behind your shoulder, you then push him back, set down and lean back creating a nasty neck crank. It's a slick technique but is contingent on one being able to set the underhooks without ending up on the ground first. It's kind of like a backwards/front facing full nelson. Sprawl is important in the success of pulling it off. If I'm not mistaken BJJ has a similar technique. I can't speak for other branches but it's a common application in Ruan family Youngchun. I'd classify it in the 50th% as far as pulling it off, not high percentage but not low. Overall a decent Yongchun Qinna technique.


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## Mephisto (Oct 22, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. Being a BJJ brown belt I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that most BJJers are way better at the ground game than at takedowns. Most 3-stripe white belts are no better than mediocre at takedowns unless they have prior wrestling background.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go. The guys do eventually get the takedown almost every time, although he would probably have a chance to land some strikes first. Still, the guys he's working with are significantly better with their takedown skills than most BJJ white or blue belts. I give Izzo credit for getting in there and testing his theories and I'd say he demonstrates good enough takedown defense for most street self-defense purposes. It's not good enough for a high-level MMA or grappling match, but it's better than I see from a lot of WC guys.



thanks for the link. I'll give izzo some credit for getting in there. It looks like he was doing a lot of framing which seems pretty standard for Bjj but if he thinks it's wc, whatever. I think his wrestling comes in to play here more than wc. But, he's at least attempting to prove his theory against resisting opponents so I'll give him credit. He at least proves he can delay the takedown, I'm not sure could prevent it so much to negate the need for grappling experience but if his point is to show that wc gives you optioons I can see that. I think your average guy would probably do something similar trying to avoid a takedown. He might really demonstrate wc's effectiveness by getting some of his students without a wrestling background to also use the technique.


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2014)

A quick comment on Bjj takedowns; The takedowns in beginner Gracie JJ tend to be the clinched based stuff like this;

[video]http://www.monkeysee.com/play/1099-beginning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-takedowns[/video]

And they're based heavily on countering punches and kicks. By the time a Gjj exponent reaches 3rd stripe white, they should be fairly decent at those types of takedowns. 

I don't see any videos about countering takedowns like that.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

geezer said:


> As he should, since WC's defense requires _offense_. Two things I noticed. 1. He gave up that right leg a bit easily to the big guy, but then again the guy was fast, strong and had a huge reach advantage. 2. He restricted himself to pure defense.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what would happen if he mixed in a bit of _offense_ --not just striking, but offensive _grappling_ that used some WC concepts or energy. And it would be interesting to see how he'd handle himself if he let it continue down to the mat for a bit too.
> 
> ...




Yeah but then you would need to find a martial arts that combines striking and the takedowns. And a system of pads and gloves that could make that sort of test relatively safe.

You would have to have a mix of martial arts combined with some sort of sparring element

And I don't know where he would find that.

It is a cheesy excuse. And that is coming from someone who could very easily hide behind it.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> A quick comment on Bjj takedowns; The takedowns in beginner Gracie JJ tend to be the clinched based stuff like this;
> 
> [video]http://www.monkeysee.com/play/1099-beginning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-takedowns[/video]
> 
> ...




Stupidly enough that sort of takedown will only work against committed punches. Which wing chun don't do. The defence is tight frontward elbows and pitter patter punching.


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Stupidly enough that sort of takedown will only work against committed punches. Which wing chun don't do. The defence is tight frontward elbows and pitter patter punching.



Keep in mind, I'm talking about takedowns that start with the clinch. You see the clinch in kickboxing and boxing because it neutralizes punches and elbows. If they get the clinch, there's a high chance they're getting the takedown.

Here's a better vid;


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## LFJ (Oct 23, 2014)

@Hanzou; a few things to consider. 

1. A VT punch is not going to be so easy to slip. The shoulders don't rotate, the elbow is down, and it's "uncommitted". Getting in, under, and around that is not as easy as it is against the kind of punch and stance in your first clip.

2. In boxing, people clinch when they get too close and are afraid to be hit or want to take a breather before the ref separates them again. It's part of the game and safe. In VT, we don't fight straight up the middle, and have methods of denying the clinch, keeping the opponent in our striking range.

3. Lastly, prior to entry we don't commit a lead leg, like many _ing _un and other MA systems. Not committing a lead leg keeps it out of range for MT style leg kicks or that shown in your second clip. It also gives us much better laterally mobility, giving us the ability to not fight in the straight line of momentum grapplers use to close the gap. Edit: It also means it takes another half step for their entry/takedown attempt. Committing a lead leg early puts it in danger and gives up a lot of mobility options.


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2014)

LFJ said:


> @Hanzou; a few things to consider.
> 
> 1. A VT punch is not going to be so easy to slip. The shoulders don't rotate, the elbow is down, and it's "uncommitted". Getting in, under, and around that is not as easy as it is against the kind of punch and stance in your first clip.
> 
> ...



Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?

Additionally, what's the general consensus of Wing Chun against Judo throws/takedowns? While they're fairly rare now, there's been a fairly large upswing in interest of no-gi Judo throws thanks to Rhonda Rousey in MMA. So its conceivable that in the near future, someone performing a no-gi throw from Judo could be a significant (and potentially deadly) threat.


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## LFJ (Oct 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?



I think the third point I made also goes a long way against leg-based takedowns, since committing a lead leg puts it as a target half a step closer; easier to shoot on. It also makes lateral mobility more difficult than if one were to not commit a lead leg until entry, when we know which side to attack. 

Many people get caught by their lead legs while attempting to flee directly backward in line with the momentum of the grappler because their committed stance restricts their footwork, and they simply can't outrun them when they suddenly shoot in. Combining elbows down and in with a neutral stance and evasive footwork, especially lateral, with a side sprawl when necessary, as I described in an early post, I think is a good VT strategy to avoid leg shoots. Of course nothing is ever 100%.



> Additionally, what's the general consensus of Wing Chun against Judo throws/takedowns?



No idea about a general consensus. I don't agree with 90% of _ing _un in the world. But, Wang Zhipeng in Beijing is an example of someone who seems to combine _Shuaijiao_ with his VT quite effectively. I've given my ideas on VT strategy in previous posts, but I don't think it's wise to stay with purely one style for the sake of purity or reinvent the wheel. If ultimately self-defense is your goal, it doesn't hurt to know at least some basic grappling and defense from their perspective.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?
> 
> Additionally, what's the general consensus of Wing Chun against Judo throws/takedowns? While they're fairly rare now, there's been a fairly large upswing in interest of no-gi Judo throws thanks to Rhonda Rousey in MMA. So its conceivable that in the near future, someone performing a no-gi throw from Judo could be a significant (and potentially deadly) threat.



Effectively that is where I am going. The change levels will generally be the better option. Where if the other guy is throwing bombs  you may find it easier to clinch.

Regardless grapplers should learn to strike. So they can open up more options to get that clinch. Maybe get those strikes a little more desperate.

Another factor that we have been playing with is gi,s doing some Kudo sparring. Clothing makes that clinch considerably easier as well.


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## geezer (Oct 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?



WC's "weakness" against leg-based takedowns is simply a consequence of its relatively upright and narrow stance. Nothing is gained without giving up something. By preferring an upright and narrow structure WC sacrifices the greater protection of the legs provided by the wrestler's crouch. On the other hand, the wrestler in more vulnerable to getting punched in the head.

This doesn't mean I'd abandon the WC stance. But you need to recognise your vulnerabilitites. Then work on what you can do to remedy the problem. LFJ had good advice: 

_Combining elbows down and in with a neutral stance and evasive footwork, especially lateral, with a side sprawl when necessary, as I described in an early post, I think is a good VT strategy to avoid leg shoots. Of course nothing is ever 100%._


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## Vajramusti (Oct 23, 2014)

geezer said:


> WC's "weakness" against leg-based takedowns is simply a consequence of its relatively upright and narrow stance. Nothing is gained without giving up something. By preferring an upright and narrow structure WC sacrifices the greater protection of the legs provided by the wrestler's crouch. On the other hand, the wrestler in more vulnerable to getting punched in the head.
> 
> This doesn't mean I'd abandon the WC stance. But you need to recognise your vulnerabilitites. Then work on what you can do to remedy the problem. LFJ had good advice:
> 
> _Combining elbows down and in with a neutral stance and evasive footwork, especially lateral, with a side sprawl when necessary, as I described in an early post, I think is a good VT strategy to avoid leg shoots. Of course nothing is ever 100%._


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REGULAR students in our lineage work regularly on structure and dynamics and practice against takedowns.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Oct 23, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is only one Chinese word "&#25684;(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.
> 
> The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".
> 
> ...



Sorry but I really feel the need to clear this up.

Takedown means you both go down and end up on the ground, at least momentarily. You can put your opponent down in other ways, like trips, throws, kicks, punches, whatever, but if you take them down then you are going down too.

If I take anything anywhere, then by definition I'm going too.

So your clip was a throw, not a takedown.

HTH, and I'll leave you guys to get on with discussing the actual topic and I'll go back to reading it


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## K-man (Oct 23, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> Sorry but I really feel the need to clear this up.
> 
> Takedown means you both go down and end up on the ground, at least momentarily. You can put your opponent down in other ways, like trips, throws, kicks, punches, whatever, but if you take them down then you are going down too.
> 
> ...


Well that torpedoes my definition. What do you call it when I put a person on the ground with for example a wrist lock but remain upright myself? I haven't thrown him, I haven't tripped him but I have taken him to the ground, and I am still in control.
:asian:


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 23, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> Sorry but I really feel the need to clear this up.
> 
> Takedown means you both go down and end up on the ground, at least momentarily. You can put your opponent down in other ways, like trips, throws, kicks, punches, whatever, but if you take them down then you are going down too.
> 
> ...



i think that definition may be unique to you. I've never heard anyone else use the term that way. I've always used "takedown" for any move which puts the other guy on the ground, whether it's a throw, trip, tackle, wrist lock, or whatever. I suppose it might seem more logical to refer to such a technique as a "putdown" except a) that term is already taken for something else and b) language isn't logical.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Oct 24, 2014)

K-man said:


> Well that torpedoes my definition. What do you call it when I put a person on the ground with for example a wrist lock but remain upright myself? I haven't thrown him, I haven't tripped him but I have taken him to the ground, and I am still in control.
> :asian:



You've manipulated him down. 

Not quite as snappy as take down though, I'll agree. 

But you still put him down rather than took him down so I'll stand by my initial statement.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Oct 24, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> i think that definition may be unique to you. I've never heard anyone else use the term that way. I've always used "takedown" for any move which puts the other guy on the ground, whether it's a throw, trip, tackle, wrist lock, or whatever. I suppose it might seem more logical to refer to such a technique as a "putdown" except a) that term is already taken for something else and b) language isn't logical.



You talk a lot of sense a lot of the time Tony, and I enjoy reading and sometimes learn something from your posts.

But having said all that, and with all due respect, you come from a country that doesn't even use the word football correctly, so...


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## Hanzou (Oct 24, 2014)

I think these vids are helpful because it shows takedowns (Bjj) in action, how swiftly a trained grappler can adjust to changes in posture and counter attacking, and how quickly the submission can occur if you have little to no grappling experience;


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## drop bear (Oct 24, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I think these vids are helpful because it shows takedowns (Bjj) in action, how swiftly a trained grappler can adjust to changes in posture and counter attacking, and how quickly the submission can occur if you have little to no grappling experience;



Change levels though.


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## LFJ (Oct 25, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I think these vids are helpful because it shows takedowns (Bjj) in action, how swiftly a trained grappler can adjust to changes in posture and counter attacking, and how quickly the submission can occur if you have little to no grappling experience;



No grappling experience, in this case for sure. Fake kung fu guy too? He was using Bruce Lee's movie style. Had all the mannerisms down though. He let the guy get too close to him, or got too close to the guy without any sort of strategy. Barely lasted 30 seconds each round.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2014)

LFJ said:


> No grappling experience, in this case for sure. Fake kung fu guy too? He was using Bruce Lee's movie style. Had all the mannerisms down though. He let the guy get too close to him, or got too close to the guy without any sort of strategy. Barely lasted 30 seconds each round.




In general it is hard to counter. There are specific strategies that work. And that has a lot to do with timing.

Looking at it people are going to suggest he didn't defend at all. But you get caught out that is exactly what happens.

Still happens to me and I do grappling.


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## LFJ (Oct 25, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Looking at it people are going to suggest he didn't defend at all. But you get caught out that is exactly what happens.



Yup, I'm not saying he didn't defend, but that he was clueless and got caught not knowing how. In the first clip, he allowed the guy to get very close while just standing there as if they would only be exchanging punches or something. It was obvious before it happened that the grappler was gonna pounce right then. He looked experienced only in jogging around imitating Bruce Lee in the mirror.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2014)

LFJ said:


> Yup, I'm not saying he didn't defend, but that he was clueless and got caught not knowing how. In the first clip, he allowed the guy to get very close while just standing there as if they would only be exchanging punches or something. It was obvious before it happened that the grappler was gonna pounce right then. He looked experienced only in jogging around imitating Bruce Lee in the mirror.



He did a good job stopping the DLT in the third clip. The problem was that the grappler simply broke down his posture instead, and ended up taking his back (which is actually a lot worse than the position he would have landed in had the DLT been successful). The vid in the OP makes it seem like you stop the DLT, you stop the takedown, not realizing that in most cases, the takedown doesn't stop, but merely transitions into another takedown attempt.

In the end, if you're really concerned about grappling, you should really consider cross-training.


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## LFJ (Oct 25, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> In the end, if you're really concerned about grappling, you should really consider cross-training.



Agreed. I think VT+BJJ is a smart combo. I spend more of my time on VT though, because in most street situations intentionally going to the ground will lead to more harm than good for yourself. But knowing what to do to avoid being taken down, and what to do if you are there is certainly important. Most real fight videos we see end up in the clinch within seconds.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2014)

LFJ said:


> Agreed. *I think VT+BJJ is a smart combo.* I spend more of my time on VT though, because in most street situations intentionally going to the ground will lead to more harm than good for yourself. But knowing what to do to avoid being taken down, and what to do if you are there is certainly important. Most real fight videos we see end up in the clinch within seconds.



I don't know any BJJ yet, but the way the BJJ guy took the kung fu guy down seemed very close to stuff I learned in wrestling some 45 years ago. Not only the double leg in clip 1, but the back heel drop in clip 2. And you can take somebody down without staying down yourself. Or throw them down and stay standing. So it looks like really good stuff to me. And if you do choose to follow them down, my old wrestling experience would not prepare me in the least to deal with all those submissions. Basically, I guess I'm saying that even though _Hanzou_ can be really annoying about how he shamelessly brags on BJJ ...I'm beginning to think he's got a point. A really _strong_ point.


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## LFJ (Oct 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> I don't know any BJJ yet,



I think something like the Gracie Combatives course is good, particularly things like the punch block series when you're on your back, and just basic knowledge of positional control and escapes. Beyond that a lot of BJJ becomes sportive and unsafe for street use. I wouldn't use it offensively, but if caught on the ground and you know nothing, you're as good as dead/broken/asleep.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> He did a good job stopping the DLT in the third clip. The problem was that the grappler simply broke down his posture instead, and ended up taking his back (which is actually a lot worse than the position he would have landed in had the DLT been successful). The vid in the OP makes it seem like you stop the DLT, you stop the takedown, not realizing that in most cases, the takedown doesn't stop, but merely transitions into another takedown attempt.



This is an important point. Thinking that you don't have to worry about being taken down because you have learned a counter is like thinking you don't have to worry about being punched because you've learned a block.

The guys who are good at throws and takedowns practice _all the time _against other guys who are _good _at stopping throws and takedowns. They train with the assumption that their opponent will try to stop them and they learn to flow from one attack into the next when their first move gets countered.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2014)

geezer said:


> I don't know any BJJ yet, but the way the BJJ guy took the kung fu guy down seemed very close to stuff I learned in wrestling some 45 years ago. Not only the double leg in clip 1, but the back heel drop in clip 2. And you can take somebody down without staying down yourself. Or throw them down and stay standing. So it looks like really good stuff to me. And if you do choose to follow them down, my old wrestling experience would not prepare me in the least to deal with all those submissions. Basically, I guess I'm saying that even though _Hanzou_ can be really annoying about how he shamelessly brags on BJJ ...I'm beginning to think he's got a point. A really _strong_ point.



That guy is legitimately better than your average bjjer by the way.

You go down with them to make sure they go down otherwise you can hit that throw and they can scramble on you. And being on top on the ground is an advantage. Even a couple of seconds could give you three or four uncontested shots. It is a factor you may have to consider if you are struggling with the stand up.

If you are really discussing the street. How many uncontested hits can people generally take?


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2014)

LFJ said:


> I think something like the Gracie Combatives course is good, particularly things like the punch block series when you're on your back, and just basic knowledge of positional control and escapes. Beyond that a lot of BJJ becomes sportive and unsafe for street use. I wouldn't use it offensively, but if caught on the ground and you know nothing, you're as good as dead/broken/asleep.



He's looking at a Relson Gracie school. Those academies should teach Gracie Combatives in their fundamental classes.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2014)

And on that theme. If you go to a new style learn that style. Don't try to trick your way out by throwing in the stuff from your old style. You are going there for a reason get your moneys worth.

If you have just manhandled everybody in the room with whatever you have learnt previously. That is a different story.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 26, 2014)

LFJ said:


> I think something like the Gracie Combatives course is good, particularly things like the punch block series when you're on your back, and just basic knowledge of positional control and escapes. Beyond that a lot of BJJ becomes sportive and unsafe for street use. I wouldn't use it offensively, but if caught on the ground and you know nothing, you're as good as dead/broken/asleep.



*Absolutely just learn it from a competent instructor and not from video*.  That way you do not miss the details and have someone correct you.  The punch block series in conjunction with knowing how to sprawl, reguard, bump and roll, Pass the guard or stand up from the guard, clinch, etc. is all pretty fundamental grappling that all martial artists should be interested in.


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## Hanzou (Oct 26, 2014)

Yeah, *don't learn it from a video*. Rener and Ryron are great guys, and great teachers, but that online belt stuff really bothers me.


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## PiedmontChun (Oct 27, 2014)

geezer said:


> I don't know any BJJ yet, but the way the BJJ guy took the kung fu guy down seemed very close to stuff I learned in wrestling some 45 years ago. Not only the double leg in clip 1, but the back heel drop in clip 2. And you can take somebody down without staying down yourself. Or throw them down and stay standing. So it looks like really good stuff to me. And if you do choose to follow them down, my old wrestling experience would not prepare me in the least to deal with all those submissions. Basically, I guess I'm saying that even though _Hanzou_ can be really annoying about how he shamelessly brags on BJJ ...I'm beginning to think he's got a point. A really _strong_ point.



From the little I know about BJJ, it seems to teach flowing from one movement to another when resistance is met or a technique is thwarted; its about structure, and leverage versus pure force against force. If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day and I would think my WT would serve me better if attacked by an angry drunk guy in a bar or some punk on the street. I suppose I could always just ask my BJJ friend who is a blue belt to show me some basics.

I hear conflicting opinions from different WC / WT guys about stuff like cross training. There seems to be the "Wing Chun is a complete system and has everything you would ever need" attitude (my paraphrasing). Some admit there is value in cross training in other systems as long as it doesn't fly in the face of WC/WT principles (cautious but logical), others like Jin Young (ChinaBoxer on YouTube) think WC and BJJ actually complement one another as seperate but harmonious arts (intriguing perspective in my opinion).


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## Vajramusti (Oct 27, 2014)

Wing chun training can vary. For me working on and with good wing chun structure and dynamics and foot work  prepares me for takedowns as well.
Yup- have tried it so have my best students and wing chun brothers.


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> ...If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because *learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is.* Theres only so much time in the day...



That's really the truth.


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> From the little I know about BJJ, it seems to teach flowing from one movement to another when resistance is met or a technique is thwarted; its about structure, and leverage versus pure force against force. If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day and I would think my WT would serve me better if attacked by an angry drunk guy in a bar or some punk on the street. I suppose I could always just ask my BJJ friend who is a blue belt to show me some basics.
> 
> I hear conflicting opinions from different WC / WT guys about stuff like cross training. There seems to be the "Wing Chun is a complete system and has everything you would ever need" attitude (my paraphrasing). Some admit there is value in cross training in other systems as long as it doesn't fly in the face of WC/WT principles (cautious but logical), others like Jin Young (ChinaBoxer on YouTube) think WC and BJJ actually complement one another as seperate but harmonious arts (intriguing perspective in my opinion).




I still don't get the principles idea. It either works or it doesn't. I would have thought the principles would follow the technique not the other way around.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 27, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> From the little I know about BJJ, it seems to teach flowing from one movement to another when resistance is met or a technique is thwarted; its about structure, and leverage versus pure force against force. If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day and I would think my WT would serve me better if attacked by an angry drunk guy in a bar or some punk on the street. I suppose I could always just ask my BJJ friend who is a blue belt to show me some basics.
> 
> I hear conflicting opinions from different WC / WT guys about stuff like cross training. There seems to be the "Wing Chun is a complete system and has everything you would ever need" attitude (my paraphrasing). Some admit there is value in cross training in other systems as long as it doesn't fly in the face of WC/WT principles (cautious but logical), others like Jin Young (ChinaBoxer on YouTube) think WC and BJJ actually complement one another as seperate but harmonious arts (intriguing perspective in my opinion).



I've only had a little direct exposure to Wing Chun, but from what I've seen the underlying principles don't clash with BJJ at all. (As you say: leverage, structure, and flowing around resistance are key to both arts.) The basic tactical doctrine (preferring going to the ground vs staying up) is different, but that can be easily resolved by  using Wing Chun while standing and BJJ if the fight goes to the ground.


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## Danny T (Oct 27, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've only had a little direct exposure to Wing Chun, but from what I've seen the underlying principles don't clash with BJJ at all. (As you say: leverage, structure, and flowing around resistance are key to both arts.) The basic tactical doctrine (preferring going to the ground vs staying up) is different, but that can be easily resolved by  using Wing Chun while standing and BJJ if the fight goes to the ground.



Full body Chi Sao. I find much of BJJ works very with in the principles of WC.


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## K-man (Oct 27, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> From the little I know about BJJ, it seems to teach flowing from one movement to another when resistance is met or a technique is thwarted; its about structure, and leverage versus pure force against force. If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day and I would think my WT would serve me better if attacked by an angry drunk guy in a bar or some punk on the street. I suppose I could always just ask my BJJ friend who is a blue belt to show me some basics.
> 
> I hear conflicting opinions from different WC / WT guys about stuff like cross training. There seems to be the "Wing Chun is a complete system and has everything you would ever need" attitude (my paraphrasing). Some admit there is value in cross training in other systems as long as it doesn't fly in the face of WC/WT principles (cautious but logical), others like Jin Young (ChinaBoxer on YouTube) think WC and BJJ actually complement one another as seperate but harmonious arts (intriguing perspective in my opinion).


Cross training when you get to a certain point of your training is great, not only to learn new techniques, but to increase your understanding of your primary art. IMO it is important to find an art that is compatible so your training is enhanced, not confused. For example, I look at quite a lot of Kung fu as Karate has its roots there. Jujutsu or Aikido helps with the soft flowing aspects missing in a lot of Karate training. I think BJJ fits comfortably with most MAs and certainly adds a different dimension to your training.
:asian:


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