# The Influence of Kenpo On Modern Arnis



## DrBarber

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Edited and deleted a portion of original post:
> 
> My instructor, Sifu Don Zanghi, mixed Tracy System Kenpo and Modern Arnis from white through black belt, with the expressed acknowledgement and encouragement of both Professor and GM Al Tracy. ...I can attest to the effectiness of Tracy Kenpo techniques and principles of motion when blended into Modern Arnis.
> 
> People should also consider the significance of the American Modern Arnis video clips as produced by Sifu/Guro Tom Bolden. Sifu Tom was trained in CHA-3 Kenpo and Pancipanci Eskrima in Hawaii during the 1960's and 70's before he met Professor. When you watch his videos, there is little doubt as the effectiveness of blending Kenpo (Kajukenbo) and Modern Arnis. Speed, power and precision are the hallmarks of the AMAA program. There is no doubt in my mind regarding Kenpo as an influence on Professor and in Modern Arnis.
> 
> http://forum.aspoonful.com/groupee/forums
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
> 
> Professor ECC
> 
> barber@ecc.edu[/


I dug up some of my old training notes from Sifu Don Zanghi and he also mailed me an old IMAF newsletter from 1986 so I can add some material about the Kenpo Connection to Modern Arnis. Some of the Kenpo trained people who were very actively involved with Professor Presas during the middle to late 1980's were Fred King, Joe Breidenstein, Dennis Toston, Barbara Bones, Janesa Kruse, Lee Lowery, Jim Clapp, Judy Clapp, Bodden Sween, Joe Foster, Tom Bolden, Rick Mitchell and Don Zanghi.

I have deliberately omitted John Bryant from the above list because even though he was trained in Tracy Kenpo under Sifu Don Zanghi, he chose to omit any and all Kenpo techniques from his Modern Arnis program at the Filipino Martial Arts Academy, in Amherst NY. Since we both trained under the same instructor, Don Zanghi, and I retained plus added more Kenpo in the form of advanced Tracy through the Sandan level with some CHA-3 Kenpo from PG Tom Bolden, my Modern Arnis has some significant differences from what one would experience from Dave Smith, Tammy Wilson and Tim Hartman, all of whom were students of John.

A significant comment is in order here because if one reviews the orignal 5 video tapes made by Professor in 1984 & 1985, the primary assistants are Jim Clapp, Judy Clapp and Lee Lowery. And all are Kenpo trained black belts prior to meeting Professor. The dye is clearly cast and the picture is quite clear, Modern Arnis and Kenpo are connected.

A couple of pieces of information that some of you will find interesting are as follows: in 1986 there were 9 underbelts in Modern Arnis and the gradings ranged from Antas Isa to Lakan. That's right, Lakan is an underbelt, part of the "rainbow". Since the newsletter is an official IMAF publication, it has to be considered as an accurate reflection of Professor's thinking at that point in time. This piece of information gives the contention by some folks that the "Lakan" grading is akin to being a probationary title some serious support. 

However, in my opinion, "Lakan" _Is Not _the first level of the black belt rankings, it is *last grade of the underbelt rankings and has no other value. *The black belt sequence begins with a seperation in the ranking column from the underbelt titles and has a seperate heading with the titles Lakan Isa, Lakan Dalawa, Lakan Tat-lo and Lakan A-pat. There only the four ranks listed in the 1986 document. One can assume that the highest ranked USA Modern Arnis person would hold the rank of Lakan A-pat. However there is no statement as to who that might be.

I also noticed that there was a reference to Dan Anderson as an IMAF Senior Instructor. Gad zooks, a documented reference to Dan as a long time IMAF member and senior instructor, so some of the guff about Dan being a "Johnnie-come-lately" to the art is without merit. 

If anyone would like to have a copy of the newsletter, send me your s-mail address and I will forward you a copy.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis


----------



## Rich Parsons

DrBarber said:
			
		

> I dug up some of my old training notes from Sifu Don Zanghi and he also mailed me an old IMAF newsletter from 1986 so I can add some material about the Kenpo Connection to Modern Arnis. Some of the Kenpo trained people who were very actively involved with Professor Presas during the middle to late 1980's were Fred King, Joe Breidenstein, Dennis Toston, Barbara Bones, Janesa Kruse, Lee Lowery, Jim Clapp, Judy Clapp, Bodden Sween, Joe Foster, Tom Bolden, Rick Mitchell and Don Zanghi.
> 
> I have deliberately omitted John Bryant from the above list because even though he was trained in Tracy Kenpo under Sifu Don Zanghi, he chose to omit any and all Kenpo techniques from his Modern Arnis program at the Filipino Martial Arts Academy, in Amherst NY. Since we both trained under the same instructor, Don Zanghi, and I retained plus added more Kenpo in the form of advanced Tracy through the Sandan level with some CHA-3 Kenpo from PG Tom Bolden, my Modern Arnis has some significant differences from what one would experience from Dave Smith, Tammy Wilson and Tim Hartman, all of whom were students of John.
> 
> A significant comment is in order here because if one reviews the orignal 5 video tapes made by Professor in 1984 & 1985, the primary assistants are Jim Clapp, Judy Clapp and Lee Lowery. And all are Kenpo trained black belts prior to meeting Professor. The dye is clearly cast and the picture is quite clear, Modern Arnis and Kenpo are connected.
> 
> A couple of pieces of information that some of you will find interesting are as follows: in 1986 there were 9 underbelts in Modern Arnis and the gradings ranged from Antas Isa to Lakan. That's right, Lakan is an underbelt, part of the "rainbow". Since the newsletter is an official IMAF publication, it has to be considered as an accurate reflection of Professor's thinking at that point in time. This piece of information gives the contention by some folks that the "Lakan" grading is akin to being a probationary title some serious support.
> 
> However, in my opinion, "Lakan" _Is Not _the first level of the black belt rankings, it is *last grade of the underbelt rankings and has no other value. *The black belt sequence begins with a seperation in the ranking column from the underbelt titles and has a seperate heading with the titles Lakan Isa, Lakan Dalawa, Lakan Tat-lo and Lakan A-pat. There only the four ranks listed in the 1986 document. One can assume that the highest ranked USA Modern Arnis person would hold the rank of Lakan A-pat. However there is no statement as to who that might be.
> 
> I also noticed that there was a reference to Dan Anderson as an IMAF Senior Instructor. Gad zooks, a documented reference to Dan as a long time IMAF member and senior instructor, so some of the guff about Dan being a "Johnnie-come-lately" to the art is without merit.
> 
> If anyone would like to have a copy of the newsletter, send me your s-mail address and I will forward you a copy.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
> 
> Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis




The Lakan Ranking has been discussed by a lot here over the years.

The General concensus is that it was a mistake taken from a list for the Michigan Summer Camps. The first was 1987, and the source for the material was a book, where it read Lakan at the top of the list then Isa, Delawa, etcetera underneath. So, having a flyer form before, is good to know. This means that Terry W. was not the only one to misunderstand. 

I have a booklet from "Arnolds Martial Arts". The person who gave it to me told me he got it in 1977. 

The first page has Acknowledgements:


> Acknowledgments - Love - Peace
> 
> TO:
> 
> Remy Amador Presas - Founder of Modern Arnis.
> 
> Choi Hong Hi - Founder of Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> James M. Mitose - For his gift of True Self-Defense to man kind.
> 
> Bruce Juchnick - For his Sharing of his Kenpo with me so Freely.
> 
> My Students - For there undying loyalty to my teaching's and training.



So I see here, and from your post, that many of those who did Kenpo in one form or anther trained with GM Remy Presas. What was the influence back to him if any? As mentioned the forms tapes and Jim and Judy Clapp have a kenpo flavor when executed by them, but not by The Professor.

As to the tapes in general, I know form talking with many of those who were training as black belts then, that those in Michigan, such as Rocky P, Jeff Fields, Jeff Owens, Jim Power, and Joe Dorris, were all expected to travel to do the tapes. Yet for some reason at the last minute, they were not called to go down, and the tapes were made without some of them. So, I would not place the importance of who as in the tapes, as I believe it was more of who was at hand when the Professor was ready to tape.


Back to the handout from Arnold's, the Martial Arts Ranks are as follows:
Yellow
Green I
Green II
Blue I
Blue II
Red I
Red II
Black Belt (* All those promoted at the time were Lakan Isa's no one got the Lakan rank until the Mid 80's time frame. *)

Note: Only 7 colored ranks. Even the Pink Book has from the PI 6 whites and 3 browns, for nine ranks to map up with the predominate Korean and Japanese arts.

If you will notice this looks a lot like Tae Kwon Do, which the rest of the booklet discusses as well. 
Yellow Stripe
Yellow
Green Stripe
Green
Blue Stripe
Blue
Red Stripe
Red
Black Stripe
Black Belt


On a side note: These requirements I have only mention the Cane (anyos) forms and nothing is said about empty hand at all. 

This correlates with the Pink book so it seems that as time progressed and people wanted more of what they were used too, The Professor, gave them the empty hand forms from Shoto-kan. (* Which we have had a few Shoto-kan people train with us, and they swear the forms are almost the same patterns. Maybe a different turn here or there just enough to be different. *)


----------



## Cebu West

I believe that this is where the Art Within Your Art is evident. Most of the Kempo people that I am familiar with that cross train in Modern Arnis have added Modern Arnis techniques to their training. I do not see it going the other way. Professor would rarely finish off a Modern Arnis technique with kicks and punches. He showed you how to execute the strike, lock or trap and left finishing off the opponent to the individual and their preferred style. In this way, Professor's Modern Arnis did not exclude what you already knew from your primary art.

Sal


----------



## DrBarber

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> The Lakan Ranking has been discussed by a lot here over the years.
> 
> The General concensus is that it was a mistake taken from a list for the Michigan Summer Camps. The first was 1987, and the source for the material was a book, where it read Lakan at the top of the list then Isa, Delawa, etcetera underneath. So, having a flyer form before, is good to know. This means that Terry W. was not the only one to misunderstand.
> 
> I have a booklet from "Arnolds Martial Arts". The person who gave it to me told me he got it in 1977.
> 
> The first page has Acknowledgements:
> 
> 
> So I see here, and from your post, that many of those who did Kenpo in one form or anther trained with GM Remy Presas. What was the influence back to him if any? As mentioned the forms tapes and Jim and Judy Clapp have a kenpo flavor when executed by them, but not by The Professor.
> 
> As to the tapes in general, I know form talking with many of those who were training as black belts then, that those in Michigan, such as Rocky P, Jeff Fields, Jeff Owens, Jim Power, and Joe Dorris, were all expected to travel to do the tapes. Yet for some reason at the last minute, they were not called to go down, and the tapes were made without some of them. So, I would not place the importance of who as in the tapes, as I believe it was more of who was at hand when the Professor was ready to tape.
> 
> 
> Back to the handout from Arnold's, the Martial Arts Ranks are as follows:
> Yellow
> Green I
> Green II
> Blue I
> Blue II
> Red I
> Red II
> Black Belt (* All those promoted at the time were Lakan Isa's no one got the Lakan rank until the Mid 80's time frame. *)
> 
> Note: Only 7 colored ranks. Even the Pink Book has from the PI 6 whites and 3 browns, for nine ranks to map up with the predominate Korean and Japanese arts.
> 
> If you will notice this looks a lot like Tae Kwon Do, which the rest of the booklet discusses as well.
> Yellow Stripe
> Yellow
> Green Stripe
> Green
> Blue Stripe
> Blue
> Red Stripe
> Red
> Black Stripe
> Black Belt
> 
> 
> On a side note: These requirements I have only mention the Cane (anyos) forms and nothing is said about empty hand at all.
> 
> This correlates with the Pink book so it seems that as time progressed and people wanted more of what they were used too, The Professor, gave them the empty hand forms from Shoto-kan. (* Which we have had a few Shoto-kan people train with us, and they swear the forms are almost the same patterns. Maybe a different turn here or there just enough to be different. *)


Hi Rich,

You have a very nice find in the Arnold book.  I didn't know that it existed, but I also take heart in knowing that there is another publication out there that adds a bit more information to the larger perspective that already exists.

The empty hand forms are definately Shotokan.  The direct influence of Kenpo/Kajukenbo was that these folks were used to forms and wanted to have some for practice purposes in terms of their Modern Arnis studies... or so I was told by Sifu Zanghi and recoded this idea in my notes dated in 1983.
Perhaps the most significant influence on Modern Arnis from the Kenpo
/Kajukenbo groups was that they were the involved in the inital formation/structuring of the US version of the IMAF.  These folks dominated the IMAF leadership positions in the mid 1980's.  The Parker, Tracy and Kajukenbo players were also among the Professor's leading exponents of the art of Modern Arnis.  When talking about the Kenpo influences on Modern Arnis, it is not necessary for there to be a profound difference in what Professor did in terms of physical techniques, although that is what most people would want to see detailed.  In this case the influences were most profound in hosting Professor at seminars, making networking links to other instructors for seminars, camps and introducing the art into new schools as well as establishing the intial IMAF/US organizational structure.  These influences are far more important than whether or not Professor actaully adapted some Kenpo technique and added it to Modern Arnis.  Without the Kenpo/Kajukenbo connections it would have been much harder for Professor to grow the art in the US and Canada.

The fact that Kajukenbo, Parker Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo are Hawaiian based systems in which there was already a blending of Chinese, Japanese, Samoan and Filipino martial arts, made the transition to Modern Arnis by these people so much more natural than for some other karate based systems such as Shotokan, Isshin Ryu and Shorin Ryu.  The fact that Professor could study Shotokan and blend it into the Filipino based arts is a testiment to his individual skills.  However, please note that even he could not and did not "round off" the linear movements of the anyos from their original karate format.

Since the orginal question deals with what is Modern Arnis, the inclusion of Kenpo/Kajukenbo influences can not be ignored or minimized simply because Professor himself did not mimmic or adopt some movements out of these arts.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Flatlander

DrBarber said:
			
		

> The fact that Professor could study Shotokan and blend it into the Filipino based arts is a testiment to his individual skills. However, please note that even he could not and did not "round off" the linear movements of the anyos from their original karate format.


Though I never had the opportunity to meet or train with the late Professor, I do find the above difficult to believe. 

There seems to be a lot of talk of "empty hand" anyos and "cane anyos". There's a difference? I have learned 3 anyos, and they are done with either one cane, 2 canes, empty hand, with one blade, 2 blades, cane and blade, or with the sibat. The "form" of the anyos is the same throughout. When I do the anyos emptyhanded, the movements are "rounded" and flowing. There is no "karate" influence in them, and these are the only forms that I have ever learned. These anyos were taught to me by my instructor, who learned them directly from Datu Kelly Worden. The only time I have seen Datu do them is on tape, and his interpretation of them does not seem to be karate influenced.

Now, having said that, I can easily adapt the movements to take on more of a JKD flavour, and demonstrate the linear trapping applications within them. This works really nicely with the blade in a reverse grip.



> Since the orginal question deals with what is Modern Arnis, the inclusion of _Kenpo/Kajukenbo influences can not be ignored or minimized simply because Professor himself did not mimmic or adopt some movements out of these arts._


This is a peculiar statement. Who developed and codified this art? I don't think we can appeal to a higher authority on Modern Arnis than the Professor, can we? I think the question is, did Modern Arnis exist as a firm concept before Professor began teaching outside of the Phillipines? I believe that it probably did.  With that in mind, is it correct to say that Kenpo exits within Modern Arnis, or that Modern Arnis exists within Kenpo?  I can say this much: there is no Kenpo in my Modern Arnis.



			
				Cebu West said:
			
		

> I believe that this is where the Art Within Your Art is evident. Most of the Kempo people that I am familiar with that cross train in Modern Arnis have added Modern Arnis techniques to their training. I do not see it going the other way.


 This is a good point. The art within your art concept shouldn't be forgotten here. As I pointed out above, the movements can and likely will be flavoured by the way the practitioner's body knows how to move. Given the way the art was marketed, there are tons of people all over the world with a base in some other art(s) that are adapting these principles to fit within their structure. 

Please bear in mind, I haven't seen enough practitioners from different influences move to formulate a global opinion on this; all I can really contribute is what my own experiences have been.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Though I never had the opportunity to meet or train with the late Professor, I do find the above difficult to believe.



Dan I recommend you try to meet as many of those who did train with the late Professor. Not to change your training or who you train with, just to see.



			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> There seems to be a lot of talk of "empty hand" anyos and "cane anyos". There's a difference? I have learned 3 anyos, and they are done with either one cane, 2 canes, empty hand, with one blade, 2 blades, cane and blade, or with the sibat. The "form" of the anyos is the same throughout. When I do the anyos emptyhanded, the movements are "rounded" and flowing. There is no "karate" influence in them, and these are the only forms that I have ever learned. These anyos were taught to me by my instructor, who learned them directly from Datu Kelly Worden. The only time I have seen Datu do them is on tape, and his interpretation of them does not seem to be karate influenced.



There were four cane forms in the Pink Book and from those in the PI. Once in the States the Professor added in first 5 "empty hand" forms. Later he added in another three over time. The first five made his video tape series in the mid 80's.

As to how you can do the forms, it is true you can do any of the forms with any weapon, as you stated. 

Also in the late 80's there were the translations of the forms, so the linearness of the forms can be modified, for different translations of movements of the foot work. This is something that Datu Kelly teaches even if he does not use the same words I used here. 



			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> Now, having said that, I can easily adapt the movements to take on more of a JKD flavour, and demonstrate the linear trapping applications within them. This works really nicely with the blade in a reverse grip.



Dan this is one the nice things I have seen from Modern Arnis players is that they can adapt well. 



			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> This is a peculiar statement. Who developed and codified this art? I don't think we can appeal to a higher authority on Modern Arnis than the Professor, can we? I think the question is, did Modern Arnis exist as a firm concept before Professor began teaching outside of the Phillipines? I believe that it probably did.  With that in mind, is it correct to say that Kenpo exits within Modern Arnis, or that Modern Arnis exists within Kenpo?  I can say this much: there is no Kenpo in my Modern Arnis.



There was a required corriculum yet as time went by the Professor would add in technique strings or drills to help people. He also added in more translations for people to see how it was all the same.



			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> This is a good point. The art within your art concept shouldn't be forgotten here. As I pointed out above, the movements can and likely will be flavoured by the way the practitioner's body knows how to move. Given the way the art was marketed, there are tons of people all over the world with a base in some other art(s) that are adapting these principles to fit within their structure.



And those who only trained in FMA or Modern Arnis, from Modern Arnis instructors, would move like Modern Arnis. 

Your art within your art.



			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> Please bear in mind, I haven't seen enough practitioners from different influences move to formulate a global opinion on this; all I can really contribute is what my own experiences have been.



Like I said, go and check those out you can for yourself.


----------



## Flatlander

Thanks Rich.  :asian:  I definitely will as time and money continue to flow my way.  That's one of the great things about this board: I am able to understand the various people a little bit better, and this will influence the direction that my personal journey takes.  I'm better able to make an informed decision, rather than just winging it.


----------



## arnisador

I don't see any influence of Kenpo back into Modern Arnis.


----------



## Rich Parsons

arnisador said:
			
		

> I don't see any influence of Kenpo back into Modern Arnis.




As Jerome pointed out, I see that the Kenpo Practitioners helped to spread and support GM Remy Presas. I did not doubt this point at all, and Credit should be given to these individuals for their support and spreading the art.

I also do not see, where it was a direct influence into the system, not in the naming, not in the techniques, nor in the execution. So, as Jerome stated, there is not direct technique link, but the initial support was there, and worth noting.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Rich,



> I also do not see, where it was a direct influence into the system, not in the naming, not in the techniques, nor in the execution. So, as Jerome stated, there is not direct technique link, but the initial support was there, and worth noting.



There might be some technical influences as well.  There are several single arm actions that are kenpo-like (e.g. anyo 2 forearm block into elbow strike into overhead arm clear - Mano y Mano page 76 or the arm entrapment, elbow strike, follow up knee strike combo from anyo 5, page 100).  RP was hooked up with Rich Alemany and Bruce Juchnik back in the latter 1970's and he was a keen observer.  I might try to track Rick and Bruce down to see if they saw any change in his empty hand applications from when they first met him.  Interesting possibility but currently conjecture.

Yours,
Dan

PS - The Complete Cellar Door 1970 concerts by Miles Davis are due for a street release of Sept 26th.  Way cool!


----------



## DrBarber

arnisador said:
			
		

> I don't see any influence of Kenpo back into Modern Arnis.


Hi Jeff, 

You are looking in the wrong place. The major inflence of Kenpo ON Modern Arnis is in the organizational structure that some Kenpo/Kajukenbo people attempted to put in place for the fledgling IMAF/USA in the middle 1980's.
Some stuff stuck most did not. The administrative leadership of the original IMAF/USA aside from Professor as the President and Founder was mostly Parker Kenpo and Kajukenbo people.

From my training with Sifu Don Zanghi and cross training with PG Tom Bolden, I can identify from the Tracy prespective nearly 30 techniques where Tracy Kenpo and Modern Arnis converge. There was no need for Professor to take on or assume Kenpo style movements or techniques per se, they already existed in his Modern Arnis movement references. By the same token, the transition from Tracy, Parker or Kajukenbo in terms of movement and/or technique was quite easy and natural. The movements and concepts were very similar. That gave the kenpoists and kajukenboists a decided advantage in adding Modern Arnis to their own versions of the arts. They were quite adept at establishing the "art within your art" motif as a reality.

Influences do not have to obvious and phyically observable to have occurred. It was the Kenpo/Kajukenbo Connection through the Hawaiian Based Arts of Kajukenbo, Parker Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo that first gave Professor an excellent set of networks to work through as he estaablished and solidified his seminar and camp tours that ran from 1975 to 200 in the USA, Canada and Europe. Professor used the assistance of GM Max Pallen and his network of schools to get a foothold in the USA as a newly landed refugee in exile. Looking at the history of how Modern Arnis developed in the USA as a movement requires that one examine and understand the Kenpo/Kajukenbo Connection on the structural/organizational levels not in terms of techniques or physical movement as may be the case with Small Circle Jiu-jitsu.

I would also add that there is very little to suggest that the Okinawan or Japanese based Kempo arts share the same influence as Hawaiian based arts mentioned above.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## Flatlander

Ahhh.  So you're talking about politics, marketing, and propagation, as opposed to the art itself.


----------



## James Miller

Couldn't the same be said for Small Circle and DKI? With the network that they shared all three systems gained more exposure. I would also say that it wasn't the art of Kenpo but the people training in the art that helped in it's growth.


 :asian:


----------



## DrBarber

WMAA said:
			
		

> Couldn't the same be said for Small Circle and DKI? With the network that they shared all three systems gained more exposure. I would also say that it wasn't the art of Kenpo but the people training in the art that helped in it's growth.
> 
> :asian:


That's a a fairly precise and definative splitting of hairs because the people are the art... you can't have an art without people.  This also leads me to the following comments.  In 1975, GM Ed Parker, invited Professor to demonstrate his Modern Arnis at the first major US event for Professor - the International Karate Championships in Long Beach CA.  Assisting Professor were, Dean Stockwell, Max Pallen (misspelled Pollen in the article) and seven (7) of Pallen's students. (IKF, p.58, 1991)  

Six months later, Professor, gave his second major Modern Arnis demo in NYC at the "Oriental World of Self Defense" in Madison Square Garden and that program was later televised nationally and internationally on ABC's "Wide World of Sports".  This was the first time that Modern Arnis or any FMA had been given any exposure on the East Coast of the US.  Professor was assisted at this demo by Roland Dantes, Dio Gonzales, John Almario and Antonio Tito.  The NYC demo also gave Professor an opportunity to meet Moses Powell, Thomas LaPuppet, Jim Power and Florindo Visitacion. (IKF, p.58, 1991)

The Kenpo Connection is quite clear right from begining in 1975 with Max Pallen and Ed Parker being in the fore-front of aiding Professor in getting established in the US.  If my informants are correct, Max Pallen not only sponsored Professor's entry into the US, he also provided Professor with a residence in his own home.  It certinly seems very likely that there was an immediate exchange with GM Pallen's students if seven of them assisted the first major demo of Modern Arnis within a few months of Professor's arrival in the US.

It is my contention that the Kajukenbo/Parker-Tracy Kenpo Connection to Modern Arnis is quite easily explained.  All three arts are Hawaiian based and share some common lineage.  These ares are part of the James Mitose - William Chow line and Adriano Emperado studied under both men.  He was a 5th degree black belt under Professor Chow and the lead instructor under Chow for a number of years, including several years when Ed Parker was studying Chow's Kenpo Karate as an underbelt.  Sijo Emperado was already an accomplished Eskrimador before he began his Kenpo studies under Chow.  The FMA were thriving in secret in Hawaii, while the Karate and Kung Fu arts were being openly taught.  Therefore it is very likely that people like Sijo Emperado, Victor Gascon, Sid Ascension and Joe Emperado very quietly and skillfully incorperated Eskrima concepts into their Kenpo training over time.  After all is said and done, Kajukenbo/Parker-Tracy Kenpo have angular stepping, empty hand knife defenses with traping hands type features, stick/club defense, joint locks, rotational throws and take downs within their respective systems.
These instructors and students already had the basic skills foundation to incorperate and utilize single and double stick training when it came into their martial training.  The Kenpo people were simply adding "the art within their art" and some detailed in-depth training when they met Professor.  

If the truth be told, these Kajukenbo/kenpo trained people could have adapted to virtually any FMA instructor and system.  Time and circustance simply placed Professor and Max Pallen together and as they so often say, the rest is history.  It was the right place at the right time with the right personalities meshing that allowed the Modern Arnis system founder to prosper and grow in the USA.

Since most of us were not around in 1975, we really don't know what if anything Professor took from the Kenpo side, but since he himself includes that short piece about Kenpo being an influence on him/his art, in his 1983 book, published by Ohara, denying any influences from Kenpo is not realistic because that means that Professor lied in his presentation, from that perspective.  It would take a Max Pallen, Bruce Juchnik, Rick Almeny or Fred King to clearly tell us what Professor changed in Modern Arnis between roughly 1975 and 1990 with regards to the Kenpo influence on the art itself.

I would like to leave you with one final quote from the 1991 article that I have cited above.  Professor told his interviewer, Rick Mitchell, "I look forward to the unity of Filipino martial arts.  There must be room for differences - hopefully working sid by side.  This is a free country.  But if there is to be true unity of purpose within the Filipino martial arts we must encourage each other to grow rather than alienate or attack each other..." (IKF, p. 89, 1991)

Jerome Barber, Ed.D. 

Note: Citations and quotes taken from Inside Kung Fu, January 1991, V. 18,
No. 1.  "Presas Takes his Modern Arnis to the World" by Rick Mitchell.

An additional side note, on page 29 of that issue you will find the once standard video tape/Summer camp full column advertisment and included is the notice for the East Coast Summer camp, June 6, 7, 8, 9 at 4041 Southwestern Blvd., Orchard Park, NY.  That just happens to be one of the camps that I ran for Professor at that location.


----------



## Dan Anderson

_"The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know."_
Harry S. Truman

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Rich Parsons

Unfortunately I do not have this issue. I am stil looking for a copy.

I do have December 1990 which had the forerunner article, which discussed some early history and also GM RP's exit from the PI. 

From Page 38: ** Note lack of caps for names of arts is as printed in the magazine.


> IKF: What else did you do to expand your knowledge of martial arts and to develop modern arnis?
> 
> RP: In 1961, I applied for a teaching position at La Salle College in my province, where I was given the opportunity to study and teach kodokan judo  under the Philippine Amatuer Judo Association (PAJA), and also shotokan karate. My involvement with Judo and Karate served as a springboard to promote Filipino martial arts. Also, I incoprprated skills from judo and karate into modern arnis to further develop my art.
> . . .




This was published in December of 1990, and if the Professor does not state that Kenpo influenced, yet he quotes that both Judo and Karate were used to  influence Modern Arnis, it makes me believe that the Kenpo influence was introduction of people not in the flavor or techniques of the art. 

Also this article states that Max Pollen (Pallen) of the Oakland Filipino Jaycees who was also a Kajukenbo instructor, was in Manila, PI. and this is where the two met. 

I do not discredit those that helped, introduced and trained in the begining years. Those that started in Michigan in 1975/76 were all TKD based, as Kenpo in any form is not common. I do not think that TKD also influenced Modern Arnis as Balintawak, or the family system or Judo or Karate did. 

No disrespect Jerome, for like I said I see your point of how far the art was able to spread is most definitely worth a mention and those involved should be recognized for the involvement. 


 :asian:


----------



## Tgace

If a specific art is spreading MA then I cant see how that art cant help but bleed into MA.


----------



## RickRed

arnisador said:
			
		

> I don't see any influence of Kenpo back into Modern Arnis.


http://www.wmarnis.com/pdfs/black.pdf
This curriculum and terminology looks like a blend of many FMA and Kenpo influences and not just Modern Arnis.

I don't know how someone wouldn't end up influencing any art with their other training.  Some of the best Mixed martial artists were college/High School wrestlers or boxers or traditionally trained artists before they made it their own and blended that with other things.

It would be like saying that a sculptor wouldn't bring some of that to pottery when he changed over.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Tgace said:
			
		

> If a specific art is spreading MA then I cant see how that art cant help but bleed into MA.




So, TKD both ITF and WTF, and some Kung Fu and what have you also influenced the art.

So, anyone who trained before they trained in Modern Arnis, influenced the art?

So, if someone who was in the military and then trained in Modern Arnis, now the art of Modern Arnis is influenced by the Military?

I do not see the connection everyone is trying to force here. I see that there were people who trained elsewhere and then trained in Modern Arnis, and many of them went and trained in other arts as well.


----------



## Rich Parsons

RickRed said:
			
		

> http://www.wmarnis.com/pdfs/black.pdf
> This curriculum and terminology looks like a blend of many FMA and Kenpo influences and not just Modern Arnis.
> 
> I don't know how someone wouldn't end up influencing any art with their other training.  Some of the best Mixed martial artists were college/High School wrestlers or boxers or traditionally trained artists before they made it their own and blended that with other things.
> 
> It would be like saying that a sculptor wouldn't bring some of that to pottery when he changed over.




To be honest, you need to ask Tim Hartman about the names he uses. They are not the same terms I use, and are not the common terms used by everyone. I believe they are what he uses for his organization.


----------



## Tgace

I suppose it all comes down to numbers I guess. If a large enough chunk of practiconers are spreading the art with another martial art influence it will bleed over.

Whats the big deal with this issue anyway? Whats the political angle? Seems like a non-issue to me.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Tgace said:
			
		

> I suppose it all comes down to numbers I guess. If a large enough chunk of practiconers are spreading the art with another martial art influence it will bleed over.
> 
> Whats the big deal with this issue anyway? What the political angle? Seems like a non-issue to me.




The issue is that those who train in Kenpo of some form see the connection. Those that train in Kung Fu or CMA os some form, or any KMA, including that there were numerous schools who taugh both TKD and Modern Arnis in the South East Michigan region. 

As to politics, I have none, for I have no organization, and I am not out there trying to convince people that the arts I have trained in have influenced other arts.

As to a non-issue, then why do you take such enjoyment out of feeding the fire?


----------



## Tgace

What fire? Whats the big deal here? Whats said or who is saying it? Who really knows what arts ultimately influenced MA and who cares? With the "make it your own" philosophy I dont think Prof. would deny any art its influence. Hed probably say "its all the same" I would think.

Whats the issue here?


----------



## RickRed

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> To be honest, you need to ask Tim Hartman about the names he uses. They are not the same terms I use, and are not the common terms used by everyone. I believe they are what he uses for his organization.


If everyone is using different terms now, wouldn't it make sense that it was happening earlier too?   You haven't changed any of the terms or techniques or forms or order of the info from the way you were taught so that you can teach it better?  You haven't been influenced by other things you have seen from other martial artists, ever?

No one that you are mentioning were beginners to martial arts from Kenpo, TKD Karate, Judo. 

All of them in the 70' and later had other training. No one came as a white belt. That background would have been and influence then too.

YOu always hear people say stuff about how they use to do it at their old work or school or in theri parents house when they start something new. This would make sense in martial arts too.


----------



## Tgace

Rick...before you get to involved in some of these Mod Arnis threads check your PM's.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Tgace said:
			
		

> What fire? Whats the big deal here? Whats said or who is saying it? Who really knows what arts ultimately influenced MA and who cares? With the "make it your own" philosophy I dont think Prof. would deny any art its influence. Hed probably say "its all the same" I would think.
> 
> Whats the issue here?




Tom,

The issue here, is that this thread was split off to give it a chance to be discussed.  I see Dr. Barber making some statements, and I have not said he was wrong. I said I do not see it, yet I see the credit to those who trained and introduced and supported. 

You had no issues with this until I found an article that did not 100% agree with the teacher of your teacher. I made an opinion statement and also presented an article. I expected a reply from Dr. Barber himself. You have not added anything to this discussion until a piece of evidence was presented that did not agree 100% with you lineage of instructors. Note: I repeat I never said Dr. Barber was wrong, I just do not see the greater connection he is trying to present. I was hoping he could present more information and additional arguements to keep the discussion going.

But, no you had to jump in and say what is up with this? Why are we talking about this? What is my political agenda on this?  Questions that are not really on topic and not really value added to the discussion. 

If Datu Kelly Worden posts and tells me that there is a Kenpo influence, and one of the MoTT's posts and tels me they recognize the kenpo influence, and then someone from Jeff Delaney's org posts and tells me they see the influence, and Datu Dieter in Germany posts and tells me he sees the influence, then I will see from othes that there might be some influence.

Yet, I would expect that each of those mentioned, including all 6 of the MoTT's, would express that if they had training prior to training in Modern Arnis, that it would influence their own individual understanding, and approaches, for you always try to frame something into a frame of reference you already understand. Mine was just street brawling before I started to train in Modern Arnis.

So, once again I do not see the connection of Kenpo and Kenpo Techniques directly influencing Modern Arnis. I pleasantly wait for Dr. Barber's rebuttle, and or additional information.


----------



## Rich Parsons

RickRed said:
			
		

> If everyone is using different terms now, wouldn't it make sense that it was happening earlier too?   You haven't changed any of the terms or techniques or forms or order of the info from the way you were taught so that you can teach it better?  You haven't been influenced by other things you have seen from other martial artists, ever?
> 
> No one that you are mentioning were beginners to martial arts from Kenpo, TKD Karate, Judo.
> 
> All of them in the 70' and later had other training. No one came as a white belt. That background would have been and influence then too.
> 
> YOu always hear people say stuff about how they use to do it at their old work or school or in theri parents house when they start something new. This would make sense in martial arts too.




To say an individual uses something to help themselves is fine. And yes it would influence them and their students.

Yet, if you go back and try to emulate the GM himself, and use his methods of executing the technique, and to approach it from his point of view or his body mechanics, then it is modern arnis. Yes, I agree that the Professor had the concept of making it your own, for he was much mroe concerned with someone being able to defend themselves. Yet, if you talk to those who are serious about teaching and passing on theri knowledge they, will do theri best to teach it the way they learned, and try to keep it as genuine as possible. 


And just for the record:

1) I did not say TKD Karate.

2) Modern Arnis is admitted sources of the Presas Family and Balintawak, and Judo Shoto Kan Karate. 

3) There is one book that gives credit to Kenpo, but no one can point to me and say this is the Kenpo specific influence. I can point to the Shoto Kan influence. I can point to the Judo influence, and later the Small Circle Ju Jitsu influence.

4) Have no disrespect for any Kenpo lineage being from Hawai'i or be it from China, or America, or Japna, or anywhere else. I have friends who train it, and I see nothing wrong with their training for it works for them. 

5) The body moves in distinct ways, and there are certain ways that joint locks and vital areas are exposed or taken advantage of. If you see the top people for different arts, you will notice no matter if it be linear or circular system, or hard or soft, when they attack a wrist, there are certain similarities. When they attack a body for impact, they attack the similar areas for these are the target zones of the body. I agree that each arts has a different method of teaching basics and teaching progression, and that their entries and applications may vary.

6) You may contact me at anytime for pesonal conversation to hear my voice inflections if you wish. 248-467-9454 is my cell phone. If you want I will contact you. I harbor no ill will towards any Kenpo influence, I am just trying to better understand, and as any educator will tell you, if the student does not ask a question or make the statement that they do not see the connection or understand the influence, then no further education on this subject is possible. So instead of closing my mind and avoiding the issue, I was trying to have a discussin with Dr. Barber and those who trained in Kenpo and in Modern Arnis, to furhter present the conenction.

Peace
 :asian:


----------



## arnisador

RickRed said:
			
		

> http://www.wmarnis.com/pdfs/black.pdf
> This curriculum and terminology looks like a blend of many FMA and Kenpo influences and not just Modern Arnis.


 I think the Kenpo influence here is mainly the terminology, and that that influence was from Huk Planas to Mr. Hartman. This curriculum is from after the Professor's passing.

 It does refelct some additional Balintatwak influence on Modern Arnis as well. Mr. Hartman can address these issues in more detail.


----------



## arnisador

RickRed said:
			
		

> If everyone is using different terms now, wouldn't it make sense that it was happening earlier too?


 I thought we were focused on when the Professor was alive. Then, he decided what was in the art...but he was very expansive about allowing a person to bring his or her own training into their own expression of the art. Occasionally some of that would creep into Modern Arnis as a whole if he liked the technique...Wally Jay's SCJJ is the best example.

 I see no Kenpo in what the Professor taught. Does it matter? Sure, everyone likes to know their own origins!


----------



## arnisador

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Modern Arnis is admitted sources of the Presas Family and Balintawak, and Judo Shoto Kan Karate.


 Add Wally Jay's SCJJ and you've got all the major ones, I think. I'm sure he picked up other little things here and tehre, as we all do.

 He spent a lot of time with George Dillman, but only once did I see him do a DKI-style technique, and it was on the side for just Mr. Hartman and me. I don't think it influenced the art he taught in a big way; I'm sure it affected how he viewed some things, and maybe how he explained them.

 In Michigan there were always TKD people, Kung Fu people, Karate people, etc. It affected how they did arnis, and the Professor was not just Ok with that, he encouraged it; but while he'd occasionally have someone demo their variant of an anyo or something, it didn't make it onto the testing sheets, or what the Professor showed, etc.


----------



## Rich Parsons

arnisador said:
			
		

> Add Wally Jay's SCJJ and you've got all the major ones, I think. I'm sure he picked up other little things here and tehre, as we all do.



From the quoted interview is where I listed the four sources. The SCJJ has influenced and I can see as presented by myself and others in other threads. 



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> He spent a lot of time with George Dillman, but only once did I see him do a DKI-style technique, and it was on the side for just Mr. Hartman and me. I don't think it influenced the art he taught in a big way; I'm sure it affected how he viewed some things, and maybe how he explained them.



Yes, I agree, just because I have friends and associates who are in TKD and other arts, this does not mean I take their techniques and or my training is influenced by their training. 



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> In Michigan there were always TKD people, Kung Fu people, Karate people, etc. It affected how they did arnis, and the Professor was not just Ok with that, he encouraged it; but while he'd occasionally have someone demo their variant of an anyo or something, it didn't make it onto the testing sheets, or what the Professor showed, etc.



That is my point you could do what you want for yourself and for your self defense, but when it came time for the testing, . . . , .


----------



## arnisador

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Since most of us were not around in 1975, we really don't know what if anything Professor took from the Kenpo side, but since he himself includes that short piece about Kenpo being an influence on him/his art, in his 1983 book, published by Ohara, denying any influences from Kenpo is not realistic because that means that Professor lied in his presentation


 I'm not so sure. English was not the Professor's first language, and I don't think anyone thinks that he literally 'wrote' that book. I know it's been said that Joo Bang Lee's Hwa Rang Do books from Ohara contained large sections of boilerplate written by his students published under his name. (I don't know whether this is true or not.) A recent review in JAMA had the reviewer lamenting the fact that the title of his book was changed by the publisher to something embarrassing to him. There are constantly letters to the editor complaining that Black Belt has redacted comments in articles they had published in it (or there used to be--I don't read it so muc any more). This is common.

 My textbook had, uh, surprising things appear in it thanks to the copyeditor and publisher and all the other hands that touched it. (They kept 'correcting' one equation--it drove me crazy!) That was a book I myself wrote. If I had didctated it to someone else who wrote, and at the time we're talking someone _else_ may well have typed it, who knows? I question this as a source written by the Professor. I certainly believe that others actually _wrote_ the book that went out under the Professor's name, based on his comments, directions, and previous works, and that Ohara edited it for style, content, and audience appeal.

 So, while I don't doubt that the Professor said something about Kenpo and/or its practitioners, I'm less prepared to accept this source as being definitive about its influence on the art. In fact, its isolation--with no other sources to help verify it--makes it questionable. I cannot read as much into it as you are willing to do.

 I didn't know about some of the connections with Kenpoists, though, and I do find this interesting! I hope you'll post more info. if you have it. I just can't put as much weight on this piece of evidence as you do.


----------



## Tgace

I think there is something "universal" about modern arnis. Almost everybody can see pieces of their art in it. Is it really there? Who knows?


----------



## Mark Lynn

arnisador said:
			
		

> Add Wally Jay's SCJJ and you've got all the major ones, I think. I'm sure he picked up other little things here and tehre, as we all do.
> 
> He spent a lot of time with George Dillman, but only once did I see him do a DKI-style technique, and it was on the side for just Mr. Hartman and me. I don't think it influenced the art he taught in a big way; I'm sure it affected how he viewed some things, and maybe how he explained them.



On the point of possible Dillman influence on Modern Arnis I would suggest possibly two techniques that I have seen that seem very Dillman influenced.  I not saying there aren't others but FWIW.

1) The arm bar, the way Remy describes the technique and demonstrates it is to me very Dillman (come to think of it Wally Jay as well) (so which came first Dillman or Wally Jay  :idunno: )

2) The reverse elbow wrench (the application of the forhand chop in karate in reverse).  This was also an application for the emptyhand crossada type motion.

Now the reason I say this is because from training with his brother (GM Ernesto) and seeing his older books and such I don't see the techniques done like this.  They look more like how GM Ernesto does it.

Just thinking about it though maybe he was influenced in the American Martial arts more than we think.  What I mean is that maybe we (American martial artists) influenced him more than any one style such as kenpo, TKD, etc. etc.

Look at the old books (the ones from the Philippines) and see how elongated the stances and the off balancing positions are.  To me they look like GM Ernesto's books as well, then look at his Ohara book and it seems less ridgid.  His tapes have the same feel/look to them.

Just a thought.
Mark


----------



## Mark Lynn

I just thought of something, I have a manual/info book or something of GM Max Pallen's that describes about his time with GM Remy.  I'll try and find it and see if it says anything about the influences on Modern Arnis.  It's been a while since I have seen it so it might take me a while but I'll try and dig it out tomorrow.

Also I know an instructor who has visited on this forum (MT) before who is associated with GM Max (he is also a Kajukenpo instructor) and maybe he can ask GM Max about any infulence kenpo/kajukenpo etc. etc. that MA might have.

FWIW
Mark


----------



## RickRed

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> To say an individual uses something to help themselves is fine. And yes it would influence them and their students.
> 
> Yet, if you go back and try to emulate the GM himself, and use his methods of executing the technique, and to approach it from his point of view or his body mechanics, then it is modern arnis. Yes, I agree that the Professor had the concept of making it your own, for he was much mroe concerned with someone being able to defend themselves. Yet, if you talk to those who are serious about teaching and passing on theri knowledge they, will do theri best to teach it the way they learned, and try to keep it as genuine as possible.
> 
> 
> And just for the record:
> 
> 1) I did not say TKD Karate.
> 
> 2) Modern Arnis is admitted sources of the Presas Family and Balintawak, and Judo Shoto Kan Karate.
> 
> 3) There is one book that gives credit to Kenpo, but no one can point to me and say this is the Kenpo specific influence. I can point to the Shoto Kan influence. I can point to the Judo influence, and later the Small Circle Ju Jitsu influence.
> 
> 4) Have no disrespect for any Kenpo lineage being from Hawai'i or be it from China, or America, or Japna, or anywhere else. I have friends who train it, and I see nothing wrong with their training for it works for them.
> 
> 5) The body moves in distinct ways, and there are certain ways that joint locks and vital areas are exposed or taken advantage of. If you see the top people for different arts, you will notice no matter if it be linear or circular system, or hard or soft, when they attack a wrist, there are certain similarities. When they attack a body for impact, they attack the similar areas for these are the target zones of the body. I agree that each arts has a different method of teaching basics and teaching progression, and that their entries and applications may vary.
> 
> 6) You may contact me at anytime for pesonal conversation to hear my voice inflections if you wish. 248-467-9454 is my cell phone. If you want I will contact you. I harbor no ill will towards any Kenpo influence, I am just trying to better understand, and as any educator will tell you, if the student does not ask a question or make the statement that they do not see the connection or understand the influence, then no further education on this subject is possible. So instead of closing my mind and avoiding the issue, I was trying to have a discussin with Dr. Barber and those who trained in Kenpo and in Modern Arnis, to furhter present the conenction.
> 
> Peace
> :asian:


All I am saying is that if Kenpo influenced Modern Arnis, then it did. If it was because the GM did it or people that were teaching it between seminars, then it could be there. The rest of the stuff on what teachers should be doing and stuff is really a personal view. I think a teacher's job is to get students to learn not only teach the text book, but that is what I think. Even you said the GM was more interested in self defense - maybe he didn't care if Kenpo or other arts were an influence either as long as the basics were there.  Students may have written comments that the GM took credit for in books, who knows if he knew what was being said if someone was explaining the kenpo influence to him if his english was that bad.  It worked, keep doing it.  Who really knows for sure.

The like was an example of how outside arts have influenced it now. It would make sense that it happened when the GM was alive too when he was teaching from seminars. The World Modern Arnis Alliance website had this on the site:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Our first goal is to further the growth of Arnis throughout the world. Secondly, in keeping with the example set by Remy Presas, our intent is to set the highest technical standards possible for the global Arnis community. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We will achieve this by designing specific training programs that will advance the progression of our art while developing maximum student proficiency. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For those who do not have immediate access to an instructor and who are training on their own, rank promotion is still possible. Students will have access to a directory of black belts, schools, and instructors in the Modern Arnis community. These people will be available to periodically assist students with their training in preparation for their advancement. Geographical constraints will not be a deterrent to the growth of Modern Arnis. "[/font]

Datu Hartman seems to be changing things from what the GM was doing. The GM was changing and combining things from other arts to make Modern Arnis. Datu Hartman is designing training to fit the student. THere is also a list of other instructors that he recommends. Not everyone of them will teach the same thing the same way. Maybe they won't even say it the same way. If they have other arts, that will influence how they teach, but if the students can pass the tests when they see D.Hartman again...how would anyone know if it was Kenpo, TKD, Judo, Boxing or anything else that influenced the training?

Didn't the GM teach at seminars? How would he really know if people with Kenpo training were using that to help students pass belt tests at seminars?

All I am saying it is possible. Just like the other art influences are possible.


----------



## RickRed

Tgace said:
			
		

> Rick...before you get to involved in some of these Mod Arnis threads check your PM's.


I see what you mean.  Thanks.


----------



## arnisador

RickRed said:
			
		

> How would he really know if people with Kenpo training were using that to help students pass belt tests at seminars?


 People did the like all the time. It was encouraged: The Art Within Your Art. People would do anyos at testing and you could pick off the kung fu people, TKD people, etc.

 It may well have affected how someone, somewhere teaches his martial arts, but I didn't see an influence on what the Professor taught and on what was required of people, demonstrated on the tapes, etc.


----------



## arnisador

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 1) The arm bar, the way Remy describes the technique and demonstrates it is to me very Dillman (come to think of it Wally Jay as well) (so which came first Dillman or Wally Jay :idunno: )


 I thought it was influenced by Wally Jay's system. I'm not certain of this however.



> 2) The reverse elbow wrench (the application of the forhand chop in karate in reverse). This was also an application for the emptyhand crossada type motion.


 If I understand the technique you mean, it's common to many systems, isn't it? What is the DKI angle on it?

 He may well have picked up something like this--he would have had to have picked up _something_, I imagine--but I can't come up with a good example.


----------



## Dan Anderson

> I think there is something "universal" about modern arnis. Almost everybody can see pieces of their art in it. Is it really there? Who knows?


Tom,
You hit the nail on the head.  I feel it _is_ universal.  _The Art Within Your Art_ was more than a marketing slogan.


> Just thinking about it though maybe he was influenced in the American Martial arts more than we think. What I mean is that maybe we (American martial artists) influenced him more than any one style such as kenpo, TKD, etc. etc.


Mark,
VERY astute comment.  Remy Presas was a very keen _*observer.*_  He watched very closely.  Anyone who knows the story of his first meeting with Bruce Juchnik knows what I mean.  It is not surprising that upon meeting Prof. Jay that he picked up on SMJJ concepts or seeing George Dillman doing pressure points, that he altered some of his actions to include DKI concepts.  These are the _*obvious*_ ones.  I do think there were many Americans he met who influenced him, one way or the other, but in more subtle and less obvious ways.  

His art kept changing and evolving.  Something was influencing him.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Mark Lynn

arnisador said:
			
		

> 1) I thought it was influenced by Wally Jay's system. I'm not certain of this however.
> 
> 
> 2) If I understand the technique you mean, it's common to many systems, isn't it? What is the DKI angle on it?
> 
> He may well have picked up something like this--he would have had to have picked up _something_, I imagine--but I can't come up with a good example.



Arnisador

1) Yeah when I was thinking about it I didn't actually know who came up with it I just knew I had seen it in both groups SCJJ and DKI.  The point I was trying to make was that it was different than how his brother teaches it really.

2) Yeah the technique is common however the application or the reference to it being the reverse of a shuto block I thought would come from a karate type background or influence.  The reference to the block is what I more or less attributed to DKI more so than SCJJ.  Pure conjecture on my part though.

Mark.


----------



## arnisador

Connecting to the anyos does sound like a DKI viewpoint; I agree. But I've seen the same done in TKD, for example! It's hard to say. Certainly I believe that the arm bar was likely influenced by either SCJJ or DKI.


----------



## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:
			
		

> Connecting to the anyos does sound like a DKI viewpoint; I agree. But I've seen the same done in TKD, for example! It's hard to say. Certainly I believe that the arm bar was likely influenced by either SCJJ or DKI.


From one who felt the locks back inthe day, I can say that _all_ the locks were influenced by SMJJ.  Ouch!

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

I feel that most of the DKI influence was in the form applications. Although I have footage of Remy performing a pressure point knockout here in Buffalo.


 :asian:


----------

