# Help me out Hapkido folks...



## Hanzou (Nov 17, 2014)

I came across this vid earlier today, and I wanted your opinions about it;






I'm hoping someone can tell me the methodology behind this technique. Thanks.


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## Buka (Nov 18, 2014)

That there is anti-grapplin stuff.

(it's funnier with a country western twang)


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## jezr74 (Nov 18, 2014)




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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2014)

Buka said:


> That there is anti-grapplin stuff.
> 
> (it's funnier with a country western twang)



Anti-grapplin' is funny all by itself. 

After all these years of grappling, I never realized you could stop an armbar simply by lifting up your attacker's leg. :lol:


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## Instructor (Nov 18, 2014)

Unfortunately I can't watch this video with sound on the computer I am using.  But I can say that the advent and popularity of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system has forced many traditional arts to revisit the ground portions of their programs.  I for one think it's a good thing that so many styles are being pressed into thinking this way.  While early approaches to combating BJJ may seem a little parochial to a skilled grappler at least our systems are working on defenses.


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## Buka (Nov 18, 2014)

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. I see vast opportunity. I think we could successfully market a DVD series on thwarting. We would have called that "thwarting the armbar". I, off course, will do the audio. Next in the series will be "thwarting the rear naked by breathing through the nose. " Catchy title, no? "Thwarting side control with distraction" (clever one liner followed by a tickle and pinch)"

You'll have to wear your jits gi, with an appropriate mask. I will have a custom made gi that looks like this.






I will be The Prince of Thwarts. 
We could make some big ducats with this!

Before anyone gets pissed about this, I like Hapkido. Just wanted to make that clear from the start. But the  vid is tactically incorrect/fundamentally flawed. And hearing, "and  today we're going to be discussing the ever so popular arm bar" leads me  to believe the speaker is trying to cash in on, or perhaps discount,  the popularity of ground based systems prevalent today. Maybe I'm wrong  about that, maybe he was just taught something flawed to begin with, but  the position, which is even described as "a common full mount  position", and the obvious look of the attempted technique and attempted  counter make me pretty sure in my assessment.

Besides, we just be funnin'.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 18, 2014)

This is an interesting question Hanzou, thank you.

I'm no ground expert (neither am I a Hapkido master), but as I understand the principle behind a well executed armbar, you're using your core muscles and the large muscles of your back and legs to multiply force against the much smaller muscles and elbow joint of your opponent's arm. As I understand it, the lever point is is more likely to be against the upper leg than the groin for the hip pop, especially outside of a sport context where the person performing the armbar is not wearing a groin protector.

A critical view of this technique based on my limited experience would lead me to observe that the groin is not easily targeted with the elbow and in a scenario where retaliatory punching is likely with one hand trapped, antagonising the guy on top with bearable pain may not be a good idea in comparison to trying to escape the mount. I'd also observe that at the point where he says 'we are at least equal', the person performing the armbar has the advantage as the hand grapple is happening closer to his core, in his strong zone, so the defender ends up pitting his two arms against the strength of the opponent's core, back and legs. An unlikely win, I'd say.

As for lifting that leg, anyone claiming that that leg is liftable, particularly at the point he does it where the bar would be basically fully on, probably hasn't experienced the full extent of an armbar against them. 

As I say, this is not my area of expertise, but in my experience when an armbar is 'half on', attempts to bend the arm can very quickly lead to a situation where it is snapped 'on'.

But, I think you know all this. I believe there are good strategies to counter common sport based grappling, but I think they require a level of critical thinking and exposure to competent execution of the thing they are aiming to counter, which is not being demonstrated here. 

By the way, you can also get out of a triangle choke by lifting the leg off you. Just kidding.


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## Instructor (Nov 18, 2014)

Hapkido has techniques for the ground but it's primarily a standing system.  BJJ has techniques for standing but it's primarily a ground system.  It makes sense that one is better suited for the ground and one is better suited for combat on your feet.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 18, 2014)

I don't know anything about Hapkido organizations. Is this guy (Secretary-General of the World SinMoo Hapkido Federation) anyone who is actually respected in Hapkido circles?


I don't know if it can be "anti-grappling" without some actual grappling to defend against. The kid he was demoing on didn't look like he had ever applied an armbar in his life and clearly had no idea of how one is supposed to work. 



			
				Hanzou said:
			
		

> After all these years of grappling, I never realized you could stop an armbar simply by lifting up your attacker's leg. :lol:



Hey, clearing the attackers leg from off of your face is a component of several legitimate armbar escapes. It's just a lot easier when the person attempting the armbar has no idea what he's doing, as in this case.



			
				Instructor said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I can't watch this video with sound on the computer I am using.  But I can say that the advent and popularity of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system has forced many traditional arts to revisit the ground portions of their programs.  I for one think it's a good thing that so many styles are being pressed into thinking this way.  While early approaches to combating BJJ may seem a little parochial to a skilled grappler at least our systems are working on defenses.



Eh, I think the time would be better spent working on defenses for attacks you might actually encounter in the street, such as an untrained attacker trying to punch or choke from the mount. If for some reason you want to work defenses against an actual armbar as performed by a JiuJiteiro/Judoka/Catch Wrestler/whoever then you need to actually learn how to do the armbar in the first place. It's not really worth critiquing this "defense" because the "attack" was so incompetent that it would be highly unlikely to work even against an untrained opponent who had never practiced any defense.


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## Instructor (Nov 18, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know anything about Hapkido organizations. Is this guy (Secretary-General of the World SinMoo Hapkido Federation) anyone who is actually respected in Hapkido circles?
> 
> 
> I don't know if it can be "anti-grappling" without some actual grappling to defend against. The kid he was demoing on didn't look like he had ever applied an armbar in his life and clearly had no idea of how one is supposed to work.
> ...



Seems reasonable to me and our system has techniques for these situations.  I am not familiar with the gentleman in the video.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know anything about Hapkido organizations. Is this guy (Secretary-General of the World SinMoo Hapkido Federation) anyone who is actually respected in Hapkido circles?



Who knows? Part of the reason I wanted to ask the Hapkido crew what they thought. 



> Eh, I think the time would be better spent working on defenses for attacks you might actually encounter in the street, such as an untrained attacker trying to punch or choke from the mount. If for some reason you want to work defenses against an actual armbar as performed by a JiuJiteiro/Judoka/Catch Wrestler/whoever then you need to actually learn how to do the armbar in the first place. It's not really worth critiquing this "defense" because the "attack" was so incompetent that it would be highly unlikely to work even against an untrained opponent who had never practiced any defense.



Agreed. There aren't many Bjj or Judo black belts roaming the streets attacking people. Your self defense time is better spent on actually learning armbars, not defending against them. Of course, the more you do, the better you are at defending against them.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> This is an interesting question Hanzou, thank you.
> 
> I'm no ground expert (neither am I a Hapkido master), but as I understand the principle behind a well executed armbar, you're using your core muscles and the large muscles of your back and legs to multiply force against the much smaller muscles and elbow joint of your opponent's arm. *As I understand it, the lever point is is more likely to be against the upper leg than the groin for the hip pop, especially outside of a sport context where the person performing the armbar is not wearing a groin protector.*


Common misconception is that groin protectors are typical in BJJ.  They are actually very rare, and in fact, are banned from any IBJJF competition.  MMA uses a cup, but in BJJ, we rarely use them in training (it's often a matter of personal preference).


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 18, 2014)

Steve said:


> Common misconception is that groin protectors are typical in BJJ.  They are actually very rare, and in fact, are banned from any IBJJF competition.  MMA uses a cup, but in BJJ, we rarely use them in training (it's often a matter of personal preference).



I used to wear a cup, but I figured out that it was getting me into bad habits where I didn't protect my groin properly. These days I rarely use one.


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## seasoned (Nov 18, 2014)

Same here, my sensei always said....block.  Of course this was dojo sparring where groin was open target with no cup.

Tournaments were mandatory. 

Sorry for any drift from OP.


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## jezr74 (Nov 18, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I came across this vid earlier today, and I wanted your opinions about it;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting comparison is 






I've made an assumption Stephan Kesting is a reliable source of BJJ technique. 

The comparison is interesting as they differ in many ways as far as driving into the groin and head placement, he mentioned not to roll your head back towards their body after removing the leg in the HKD version, which totally contradicts SKs explanation.

While both may be feasible, it will really depend on the skill level of the practitioner and opponent as already stated.

Another escape option using the legs.


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## Buka (Nov 18, 2014)

Instructor said:


> Unfortunately I can't watch this video with sound on the computer I am using.  But I can say that the advent and popularity of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu system has forced many traditional arts to revisit the ground portions of their programs.  I for one think it's a good thing that so many styles are being pressed into thinking this way.  While early approaches to combating BJJ may seem a little parochial to a skilled grappler at least our systems are working on defenses.



The way you think is what has made the Martial arts move forward. I couldn't agree with you more. Great post.


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## jezr74 (Nov 18, 2014)

Buka said:


> That there is anti-grapplin stuff.
> 
> (it's funnier with a country western twang)



After looking over a number of tubes around this maneuver, I think I like the term "escapes" rather than "anti-grappling" not that it's a real term.

One thing I love with ground work is you *sometimes* have time to put together a strategy then re-evaluate as you roll around and the situation changes. But I don't anti-anything.. I'm mainly trying to escape something, then apply something. Frankly when I'm on the ground I can barely predict what they are going to do and only have their weight movement to guide me. The escape, try and apply something, Fail\Success, rinse repeat. Anti-grappling to me would be getting to my feet and running.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Interesting comparison is
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, the HKD version isn't feasible because it's not demonstrating a proper armbar in the first place. If you notice, the HKD grandmaster supposedly begins the counter after his partner had already dropped back and hyper-extended the arm. By that point you're not only feeling pressure in the elbow, but the person performing the armbar is also driving his hips into your shoulder, pushing the rest of your body away while isolating the limb. Frankly, if I'm dropped back in an armbar, and feel someone attacking my leg (with one hand no less), I'm instinctively applying more pressure. 

Again, this would all make more sense of course if the partner was executing a proper armbar. Just about everything about that armbar is wrong.

Kesting's counter on the other hand began before the dropping back, and hyper extension took place. Additionally, he's created a frame with both his arms interlocked together, allowing both his shoulders to help in pushing off the leg. He then pins the leg with his shoulders instead of just his head. That's what makes it a lot more feasible.

The third one is too convoluted for my taste. I mean seriously, if you can do all that, how did he get you in position for an armbar in the first place? :lol: However, at least the proper armbar set up is in place, and the counter is done BEFORE the actual armbar, unlike the HKD version.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2014)

Btw, here's a vid showing how to do an armbar from mount;


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## Raymond (Nov 19, 2014)

This might be a bit of a rant, and I apologize to anyone I might offend.

I have seen that video in the original post before, and it is horrible technique; but I'll get to that.  First thing is there really is no such thing as "anti-grappling".  "Anti-grappling" is in effect, grappling.  I feel like the term Anti-grappling is something created by people who felt threatened by grappling arts becoming popular, and so they try to come up with these crazy thing that don't work because the person coming up with them has NO understanding of grappling to start with.  I find it similar to kung fu instructors who "show you how to defeat a boxer's jab" and then have someone do something that is totally not a jab at all.  This falls under what Hanzou said above.  In this video, neither the instructor or the student know how to an armbar at all.

The problem with this video is exactly that.  Neither person knows how to do a proper arm bar, and thus their escape doesn't focus on anything considered fundamental in grappling.  Instead of addressing concerns such as proper posture, creating space, not having shoulders and hips pinned down and elbows exposed, the instructor is predominantly focused on "the groin".  The lack of understanding of principles of HOW the attacker would get into position to get said arm bar is exactly why "anti-grappling" stuff from non-grapplers is mostly junk.  If you want to learn how to defeat something, you need to learn from an expert.  Not someone who believes hitting the groin is the answer for everything. 

Getting hit in the groin sucks, but I can tell you from experience that during a fight when adrenaline is high, it won't work.  If someone has such a dominant position on you that they could arm bar you from mount, they are in a dominant enough position to respond to your "dirty tricks" of groin hits with their own "dirty tricks".  Its like some people forget that a wrestler who has pinned you and has created isolation of both your arms is in a much better position to gouge your eyes than you are his.

World Sin Moo Hapkido Federation is Ji Han Jae's organization.  Jae is a very well respected figure in Hapkido, so I respect and honor his ability.  However, his instructors here are teaching things they don't have any knowledge of and that is dangerous to his students and dangerous to martial artists in general.  It is ok that not EVERY art has answers for EVERY thing.  That's why specialization exists.  I wish more instructors would be able suck up their pride and admit they don't understand a part of fighting because their art does not include it and bring in a knowledgeable person for a seminar or even as a regular instructor to cover that deficiency.  We can share our arts together.

Hapkido is an art that has its history in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and thus is mostly a self defense art with a majority standing techniques.  However, the beauty of Hapkido is also that it has always been an eclectic art with many contributors and important figures coming into the family from other arts.  Some examples are  Suh Bok Sup from Judo in the earliest days of Choi instructing or Bong Soo Han with his experience in Kwon Bop (which is in itself descended from Chinese arts).  With this history of being eclectic, I find it perfectly acceptable for a Hapkido instructor to say "my/our curriculum needs help here, can you help?" and reaching out to an expert in the field they are trying to shore up.  That doesn't take away from Hapkido, it only makes it better.  Instead, and this is endemic across traditional arts of all flavors, we have instructors introducing "crappling" to their curriculum without really understanding what they are trying to teach.


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

I guess the problem *I *have with interpreting discussion on different type of techniques is I see everything on a scale, I never see things so black and white. The arm bar escape performed in the OP vs. SK Vs. using the leg. Sure I can see the difference in positioning, the flaws for optimal execution. Stephan's example looked a lot more solid to me, and the use of the leg to escape looked more effective. But I still think some things are feasible. I may chose to adopt one method over the other in training, or if a better one comes along later, move to what moves up the optimal scale.

But it's still common to find yourself on the end of a bad arm bar. The OP would work then?


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

I dont understand why anyone cares that much. If your not a Hapkido guy then who cares what Hapkido guys are training in?


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## Raymond (Nov 19, 2014)

The technique in the OP will not work at all in my opinion.  

Stephen Kesting is a world class BJJ instructor and his videos are always good.  The difference in his video and OP is that Stephen is demonstrating and explaining Pressure and Posture.  He escapes by removing the pressure and leverage possibilities from his opponent, and then using pressure to pin the leg so it can't just take its place back.  He then moves his elbow to a safe location (away from the fulcrum).  The OP doesn't demonstrate that because they don't understand it (which is fine, they have never been taught it).  

Watch the third video from Tillis BJJ in this.  Right away, the instructor starts talking about pressure!  That's the key in any grappling art: pressure and posture.  Outside of that, I personally don't care for that escape as it relies on a certain level of flexibility which doesn't apply to all students.  I think the best escapes apply to all body types and fitness level for self defense.  Then, once you start getting to higher levels of competition, a game especially tailored for your body can develop.  

The Stephan Kesting comparison was a great one to post.  Its like instructor Yates "saw" someone do that and then tried to figure it out himself from watching it once.  Like if I saw someone do a round kick and went over, wailed on the heavy bag 100 times with no instruction, then went and taught other people how to do it.  The only thing that instructor Yates DID do right was by sucking the elbow down, but he doesn't know what was right about it.  When grappling, keeping your elbows from being separated from your body is a key fundamental.  When that happens, your limbs can be exposed.  Just like if you lift your elbow in striking, you're gonna get hit in the ribs.  Elbows in is really a fundamental of stand up or ground fighting.  But by drawing his elbow back down quickly, he is closing the gap of isolation on his limb.  However, he's preoccupied with trying to strike the groin and reminding you he trains "for da streetz" as they say.  

I commend the World Sin Moo Hapkido Federation for trying to introduce submission escapes for their students but they are going to do more harm than good with techniques like this.  Good "anti grappling" or submission defense should start with fundamentals of pressure and posture to AVOID being subbed in the first place, and then escapes should come second.  The learning hierarchy should be:

1.  Survival posture
2.  Escape


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> I guess the problem *I *have with interpreting discussion on different type of techniques is I see everything on a scale, I never see things so black and white. The arm bar escape performed in the OP vs. SK Vs. using the leg. Sure I can see the difference in positioning, the flaws for optimal execution. Stephan's example looked a lot more solid to me, and the use of the leg to escape looked more effective. But I still think some things are feasible. I may chose to adopt one method over the other in training, or if a better one comes along later, move to what moves up the optimal scale.
> 
> But it's still common to find yourself on the end of a bad arm bar. The OP would work then?



Not really.

The "armbar" demonstrated in the original video wasn't just bad - it really wasn't even there at all. You could have that kid apply the "armbar" as shown to a completely untrained person and 9 times out of 10 the untrained guy would probably be able to escape without injury. (The 10th time would be where the untrained person panicked and did something klutzy to hurt himself.)

I agree with you in general on not judging everything in absolute terms. Most of the time it's better to have a suboptimal defense than no defense at all. Some of the videos that Hanzou has criticized in other threads I've been more forgiving of because they're at least a step in the right direction.

In this case the technique shown is not even wrong. It's as if I offered to show a defense against a karate style reverse punch and then my training partner fed me an "attack" which consisted of closing his eyes, spinning around, and waving his arms like Kermit the Frog.

BTW - the two videos you posted earlier both show legitimate defenses. I prefer the Stephen Kesting version and teach it myself, but the other one is valid.


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## Raymond (Nov 19, 2014)

Gnarlie also had a very good point in his post.  Stripping the leg that's over your neck and head is not easily done, and Mr. Yates just "pushing" it with his hand would not suffice.  In the arm bar at that point, that leg is going to be pressuring down on top of you and will be VERY heavy.  Just pushing it off with your one free arm is fighting strength with strength, which to me violates a near universal principle in Hapkido.  

The difference in Mr. Kesting's video is that he defeats the leg using his WHOLE body, and that is something we can appreciate from a Hapkido stand point.  Much like with various wrist lock throws and wrist escapes, we attack a small limb or joint with all of our weight, body and pressure.  Mr. Kesting is defeating that leg with his bridge, using very powerful parts of his body against it.


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

Is there anything salvageable form the OP? Is it possible to change the technique to make it more feasible? Aside from using a different technique altogether.

(Don't get me wrong, from first seeing this post and watching the vid, it was glaringly obvious to me that there were issues. But I did think the discussion was going to degenerate down a certain path, so apologies for my first post that was not helping.)


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## Raymond (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Is there anything salvageable form the OP? Is it possible to change the technique to make it more feasible? Aside from using a different technique altogether.
> 
> (Don't get me wrong, from first seeing this post and watching the vid, it was glaringly obvious to me that there were issues. But I did think the discussion was going to degenerate down a certain path, so apologies for my first post that was not helping.)


Basically the OP video is how not to do the escape Stephen Kesting teaches in the vid that was posted.  I'm not sure how to put it without sounding rude or insulting.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I dont understand why anyone cares that much. If your not a Hapkido guy then who cares what Hapkido guys are training in?



I think it's less about caring and more about pure shock value. 

It's shocking to see two high-ranking Hapkido black belts mess up a white belt/beginner level Judo/Bjj technique, and then think the fumbled technique was sound enough to put online for the world to see.

Relax. This is just like a car accident and we've slowed down to point and gawk at the accident scene. Eventually we'll see everything there is to see and keep driving along.


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

Raymond said:


> Basically the OP video is how not to do the escape Stephen Kesting teaches in the vid that was posted.  I'm not sure how to put it without sounding rude or insulting.



Don't worry about rude or insulting, I have no problem with people giving their opinion, I've learnt a lot from the people on this board. I just find if I don't ask the question I don't get the answer. This thread has been pretty informative IMO.

One thing I'll ask, what is it you use when in a ground situation to get a sense of whats coming? Even when I am in guard, I can go by what I see (normally a tangle of arms fighting for position) but are you feeling the weight distribution move to anticipate?


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I think it's less about caring and more about pure shock value.
> 
> It's shocking to see two high-ranking Hapkido black belts mess up a white belt/beginner level Judo/Bjj technique, and then think the fumbled technique was sound enough to put online for the world to see.


Im Still waiting for your amazing skills to be posted online but anyway why do you care.  Why do you care what thee guys are doing? Your not shocked you have other reasons..........


> Relax. This is just like a car accident and we've slowed down to point and gawk at the accident scene. Eventually we'll see everything there is to see and keep driving along.


Ahhh so it was posted to make fun of them yeah thats what I suspected


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I dont understand why anyone cares that much. If your not a Hapkido guy then who cares what Hapkido guys are training in?



It's a discussion ballen.  Why do you care so much about what other people care about?


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Don't worry about rude or insulting, I have no problem with people giving their opinion, I've learnt a lot from the people on this board. I just find if I don't ask the question I don't get the answer. This thread has been pretty informative IMO.
> 
> One thing I'll ask, what is it you use when in a ground situation to get a sense of whats coming? Even when I am in guard, I can go by what I see (normally a tangle of arms fighting for position) but are you feeling the weight distribution move to anticipate?


You actually do get to a point where you can sense movement and anticipate where someone is likely to go next.  I would guess it's similar to why WC guys do Chi Sao or Tai Chi guys do push hands.  

As you develop this sensitivity through hours of mat time, you will begin to do things to encourage a particular response, which is where chaining techniques together comes into play.  Simplest example is a push/push response.  I push into you and you will intuitively push back.  I want to pull you, so I push first.


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## Raymond (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Don't worry about rude or insulting, I have no problem with people giving their opinion, I've learnt a lot from the people on this board. I just find if I don't ask the question I don't get the answer. This thread has been pretty informative IMO.
> 
> One thing I'll ask, what is it you use when in a ground situation to get a sense of whats coming? Even when I am in guard, I can go by what I see (normally a tangle of arms fighting for position) but are you feeling the weight distribution move to anticipate?



I'm not totally qualified to answer the second question, as I admit I am not an expert grappler, and have just two years in submission wrestling.  

But basically, the hierarchy of priorities if starting from a standing situation would be: close the distance -> clinch -> takedown -> pass the guard -> control -> submit.  

If I am in Guard top, then I want to pass, control, submit.  There are various ways of passing the guard for a beginner like me.  Over pass, under pass, stand up pass and so on. 

If I am guard bottom, them my priorities will be to: sweep, submit, or escape to standing.  I can do that in a few ways, I can create space to escape, or break down their posture to control for the sweep or submission.  

With that out of the way, I'll dive into your question.  If I am guard top, I know my opponent has to do one of two things:  break my posture down or create space to free his hips and escape.  Basically it then becomes a chess game (to use a tired old cliche).  Example, if I have space I can go for an under pass, once I start my under pass I KNOW from understanding these basics that he then needs to make his leg heavy, so if I feel his leg heavy I can not resist it and let is slide down/drop off of me and go for the over pass.  If my opponent is equally skilled, he'll know that I am waiting for this and so on.  

I've been told before that a blue belt (2 years of training or so) and a black belt (10 years of training or so) will know the same "moves".  Much like me and a world chess champion both know how the pieces "move".  But the difference in the blue belt and the black belt will be how quickly their brains and bodies react to said moves and feel the pressures.

The priorities of position I can also apply to my Hapkido.  If someone has a single wrist grip on me, I know their priorities will be to control me or punch me.  So my priority will be to:  Guard for the punch (if the hand cocks back in typically bully fashion) -> step to an angle to off balance and better avoid the blow -> and then to either A) escape the grip or B) trap it and move into a lock of some variety. This is just one scenario, but I pick it as it is something that is done from the white belt level and onward in Hapkido, and should be similarly trained across various organizations of the art.  

While there are many variables and places for tweaks in both arts priorities, I think you will understand what I am trying to convey.  As another Hapkido person, if you grab another Hapkido person's wrist, you both know what the other may potentially do so it will be a game of who can react, feint, etc the other person more effectively since you both know the same "moves".

I hope I didn't ramble and attempted to answer your question.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> It's a discussion ballen.



It was not posted to be a discussion it was posted so people could "point and gawk".  If it were posted by an actual Hapkido student seeking knowledge thats one thing.  To post a topic to make fun of them is different.    Its pretty self righteous of some here to basically say what hapkido is doing here is crap.  


> Why do you care so much about what other people care about?


Its a discussion Steve I was asking a question.  Hey but great job add to the conversation two thumbs up big guy


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> It was not meant to be a discussion it was posted so people could "point and gawk".  If it were posted by an actual Hapkido student seeking knowledge thats one thing.  To post a topic to make fun of them is different.
> 
> Its a discussion Steve I was asking a question.  Hey but great job add to the conversation two thumbs up big guy


And you're adding value to this thread in what way?  Rather than continue to derail the thread, I encourage you to use the RTM function.  That's what it's for.


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

Raymond said:


> I'm not totally qualified to answer the second question, as I admit I am not an expert grappler, and have just two years in submission wrestling.
> 
> But basically, the hierarchy of priorities if starting from a standing situation would be: close the distance -> clinch -> takedown -> pass the guard -> control -> submit.
> 
> ...


This is an excellent post, Raymond.  I agree completely.  I will also add that this is where collaboration can really help.  If a Hapkido guy wants to incorporate things like this into his training, crosstraining with an experienced grappler can really help.  With just two years experience, Raymond nails it.  Don't have to be an expert to understand the fundamentals.  And while a Hapkido guy with two years may not be able to take out a BJJ black belt on the ground, does he have to?  I think we all agree that he does not.  A basic level of competence in ground fighting doesn't take forever and won't negate the great things about any other art.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> And you're adding value to this thread in what way?  Rather than continue to derail the thread, I encourage you to use the RTM function.  That's what it's for.



I encourage you to use the Ignore function thats what its for YOur the one that showed up to derail this thread not me


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## Raymond (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> This is an excellent post, Raymond.  I agree completely.  I will also add that this is where collaboration can really help.  If a Hapkido guy wants to incorporate things like this into his training, crosstraining with an experienced grappler can really help.  With just two years experience, Raymond nails it.  Don't have to be an expert to understand the fundamentals.  And while a Hapkido guy with two years may not be able to take out a BJJ black belt on the ground, does he have to?  I think we all agree that he does not.  A basic level of competence in ground fighting doesn't take forever and won't negate the great things about any other art.



Thank you!  I enjoy doing submission grappling/no-gi BJJ or whatever you want to call it (I don't train in gi BJJ so I have no rank technically  ) while also training in Hapkido (not affiliated to any organization).  I feel that for me as a martial artist and on my martial journey, they compliment each other in both technical, and non technical ways.  Each gives me something the other doesn't.  Using a technical example, the few times I've rolled with people in the gi in BJJ as a white belt, all of my grip breaks came from HKD.  When I wrist lock someone, all the principles I use come from HKD.  

Doing a combat sport feeds the part of me that wants to be part of competition, and doing Hapkido gives me the sense of belonging and tradition that come with a "traditional" art.  I know HKD is not "historically" that old but I mean having an art with a history, rank, and non physical aspects it develops.  All things can exist in harmony if we try.


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I encourage you to use the Ignore function thats what its for YOur the one that showed up to derail this thread not me


Thanks for the reminder about that ignore function.  Good point.  

So, what were your thoughts on the topic of the thread again?


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> So, what were your thoughts on the topic of the thread again?


My thoughts are its none of our business what Hapkido guys are doing unless we study Hapkido.  Now if a Hapkido practitioner came and asked a question about a technique working thats one thing, a guy that isnt Hapkido posting a vid to make fun of well thats different.  In reality the chances of ever needing to escape from an arm bar in a self defense situation is pretty much slim to none. Not a lot of street fights end in arm bars.   Im sure there are plenty of Hapkido practitioners that study other arts to include BJJ or Judo or wrestling so in MY opinion its there jobs to police their own so to speak if someone is teaching bad Hapkido techniques its not ours.   Its not Hanz's job to post clips so he can "point and gawk" at them.


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> My thoughts are its none of our business what Hapkido guys are doing unless we study Hapkido.  Now if a Hapkido practitioner came and asked a question about a technique working thats one thing, a guy that isnt Hapkido posting a vid to make fun of well thats different.  In reality the chances of ever needing to escape from an arm bar in a self defense situation is pretty much slim to none. Not a lot of street fights end in arm bars.   Im sure there are plenty of Hapkido practitioners that study other arts to include BJJ or Judo or wrestling so in MY opinion its there jobs to police their own so to speak if someone is teaching bad Hapkido techniques its not ours.   Its not Hanz's job to post clips so he can "point and gawk" at them.



Good points.  And I agree that it's not hanzous job.  Is it your job to moderate the forum and enforce the ToS?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> Is it your job to moderate the forum and enforce the ToS?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Id say its all our jobs actually


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2014)

I would say its definitely my job to point out a bad armbar and armbar escape, and direct people to the proper version of those techniques.

It's the least I can do.


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I think it's less about caring and more about pure shock value.
> 
> It's shocking to see two high-ranking Hapkido black belts mess up a white belt/beginner level Judo/Bjj technique, and then think the fumbled technique was sound enough to put online for the world to see.
> 
> Relax. This is just like a car accident and we've slowed down to point and gawk at the accident scene. Eventually we'll see everything there is to see and keep driving along.




I don't personally see any shock value. I can just as easily post bad examples of any art.

The discussion that can come out of breaking down technique is interesting though. But I don't look at techniques in YouTube clips with discrediting in mind, I like to learn from them and get MT input, which has value to me.

While the spirit of this thread may not have been what I prefer, the conversation it spawns can be good.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> I don't personally see any shock value. I can just as easily post bad examples of any art.
> 
> The discussion that can come out of breaking down technique is interesting though. But I don't look at techniques in YouTube clips with discrediting in mind, I like to learn from them and get MT input, which has value to me.
> 
> While the spirit of this thread may not have been what I prefer, the conversation it spawns can be good.



I'm not looking to discredit anyone either. I was simply shocked by the technique, and was curious why it was applied in that way. I didn't get extremely critical until other people gave their opinion, and you compared it to a technique with far better execution and validity.

Interestingly, Raymond does Hapkido and he's less offended than some people here who don't take Hapkido at all. He's also producing some great posts and adding to the discussion, instead of trying to shoot the messenger.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I would say its definitely my job to point out a bad armbar and armbar escape, and direct people to the proper version of those techniques.
> 
> It's the least I can do.



And you would be wrong


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> And you would be wrong



So you're saying that if you saw a pair of martial artists doing a technique wrong, you wouldn't show them the correct technique? 

You'd really just keep letting them do the technique wrong? :uhoh:


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

Raymond said:


> I'm not totally qualified to answer the second question, as I admit I am not an expert grappler, and have just two years in submission wrestling.
> 
> But basically, the hierarchy of priorities if starting from a standing situation would be: close the distance -> clinch -> takedown -> pass the guard -> control -> submit.
> 
> ...



I actually downloaded SK's road map for bjj some time ago when a lot of these discussions came up. Very interesting, along the lines you have gone into here.

The sensitivity side of things are great to have develop, I've been doing Hapkido for about 8 months now and am starting to get a feel for just one armed bait and trapping. Feeling the subtle push and pull. this is even before I start trying with cross arms and double. waiting for the opportunity to be presented to strike and lock.

Again for our ground work, we call it yusul, we start generally with collar standing and it can result in a lock or take down, then if it goes to the ground escapes and grapple etc. but each stage has the sensitivity, and on the ground is my weakest, I'm only starting accurately identify the positions I'm in, I try to repeat to myself each position I'm in and the opponent is in as it's happening. (in my mind of course) I find it helps me to come up with a strategy from my next moves based on acknowledging the position I'm in, it also calms me down and helps me rationalize and prepare.

As you say, there is definite room for taking on board what can be learnt from other styles.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that if you saw a pair of martial artists doing a technique wrong, you wouldn't show them the correct technique?
> 
> You'd really just keep letting them do the technique wrong? :uhoh:


Your not showing them anything.  They have a dojo in southern new Jersey did you contact them and tell then they are wrong?  No you posted to make fun of them however since you asked
Yep I wouldn't show them anything unless they asked me to. IF it's not my art or people I know then its none of my business.  I see poor techniques all the time from all arts.  Guess what WHO CARES.  Why do you feel the need to go around to all other arts but your own and point out what you think is wrong.  Yet we don't even know what you actually train in.  You said you just pick out cool logos to make as your profile pictures.  Nobody has appointed you as the keeper of the martial arts.  It's not your responsibility to go around "pointing and gawking" at others.


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Your not showing them anything.  They have a dojo in southern new Jersey did you contact them and tell then they are wrong?  No you posted to make fun of them however since you asked
> Yep I wouldn't show them anything unless they asked me to. IF it's not my art or people I know then its none of my business.  I see poor techniques all the time from all arts.  Guess what WHO CARES.  Why do you feel the need to go around to all other arts but your own and point out what you think is wrong.  Yet we don't even know what you actually train in.  You said you just pick out cool logos to make as your profile pictures.  Nobody has appointed you as the keeper of the martial arts.  It's not your responsibility to go around "pointing and gawking" at others.



I'm still wondering why you care so much about what hanzou cares about.  You don't seem to want to answer.    Its Almost like you are just trying to stir the pot.  Surely that can't be true.  Nice, friendly, laid back guy like you.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> I'm still wondering why you care so much about what hanzou cares about.  You don't seem to want to answer.    Its Almost like you are just trying to stir the pot.  Surely that can't be true.  Nice, friendly, laid back guy like you.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Quit trolling Steve that seems to be your MO lately I'm not as polite at TEZ you want to take this to PM and I'll tell you how I really feel


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

At 2:30 - 3:10, I know it's no ideal camera angle but what are the thoughts around the application of the arm bar?


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Quit trolling Steve that seems to be your MO lately I'm not as polite at TEZ you want to take this to PM and I'll tell you how I really feel


Ballen, I've been posting on topic and trying to encourage you to do the same.  That's not trolling.  But, if you think I am, I once again encourage you to use the RTM function.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> Ballen, I've been posting on topic and trying to encourage you to do the same.  That's not trolling.  But, if you think I am, I once again encourage you to use the RTM function.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Yet you keep focuing on me.  I guess I'm flattered and all but stop derailing the thread.  If you have anything more to say to me or about me I'd gladly talk in PM and not derailing this thread where some are actully discussing the topic which follow along now Steve isn't me.  You seem to be fixated on certain people on this forum you may need to take a break buddy


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> At 2:30 - 3:10, I know it's no ideal camera angle but what are the thoughts around the application of the arm bar?



The gooseneck there could work, but only if you've got the wrist there already. 

Edit:   Just want to add for clarification, if you've got the wrist lock, why fall to your butt?

Once on your butt, The concern I would have is that the first defense would be to reach across with the other arm to defend the wrist lock and the arm bar.  I'd actually recommend either working the Kimura which keeps you up and actually sitting on his head, or using the wrist lock to set up the armbar.  

There isn't any problem with keeping the right foot in the near side, but it's a little looser so keeping the knees pinched and pressure on the head will be important or you'll lose the technique.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## jezr74 (Nov 19, 2014)

Steve said:


> The gooseneck there could work, but only if you've got the wrist there already.
> 
> Edit:   Just want to add for clarification, if you've got the wrist lock, why fall to your butt?
> 
> ...



I see this as much more Hapkidoy, it's not uncommon to look at ways to break bones or disable parts if it's deemed necessary while executing a technique. At my level, I execute the arm bar as it's been taught to me this way. If the opportunity presents to snap the wrist or fingers, so be it. If the situation warrants. But it's not really the point of it, when being taught we are just having re-enforced that we can use our Hapkido principles in a lot of situations, just need to wait for the opponent to give it to you. I would generally not attempt the goose neck on someone else, but have had it on me. Some of our standing techniques can work on the ground, or long enough to step to another move.

Our teacher expects all of our techniques to work under pressure and duress otherwise he modifies it to work, or throws it out as useless and doesn't teach it..


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## Hanzou (Nov 20, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> At 2:30 - 3:10, I know it's no ideal camera angle but what are the thoughts around the application of the arm bar?



The armbar seems to be overkill in that demonstration. It was almost like the guy was saying "look what I can do from here, and here, and here!"

Other than that, it looked like a perfectly fine armbar, even if the set up was a bit much.


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## Raymond (Nov 20, 2014)

Inwan Kim's Hapkido technique is top notch and I would love to train HKD with him.  But I'm not sure an armbar was appropriate from there, as I don't feel the pain compliance of the wrist lock gives you enough positional dominance and control to secure the arm bar.

Personal opinion time:
Many traditional artists (including HKD folks I have met) look at joint locks as using a small limb to bring down a mighty oak.  However, if you just cut a branch off of a tree, the rest of the trunk stays up right?  However among the various grappling arts (BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Sambo etc) to fully break the limb of the tree, we have to control the trunk and then we can move out to any branch we want.  

Joint locks, chokes and submissions are the same.  Inwan Kim here is using the wrist lock to break the limb but it relies more on pain compliance while he transitions into the arm bar.  There's no pressure, or pinning technique to secure the position before the submission.  That's the thing we drill into our brains over and over in grappling arts (which I consider HKD being depending on the organization or style):  position before submission.  

In that video, if Mr. Kim had placed is outside (head side) knee on the partner's head and the other on the ribs where it was, then I think that would have given him a good position to transition from the wrist lock to the arm bar (but there really wouldn't be any need to at that point).  A position like this would have been great:







This person is working a kimura from North/South position, but I often will finish with the wrist lock from here by using my chest/sternum against the tricep and my hand on the back of their hand instead of gripping the wrist and pulling the hand towards the forearm like the wrist lock Mr. Kim applies.  AS you can see, their is no room for escape or to lose position here and you use positional and pressure dominance to achieve the submission rather than just pain compliance (which is good for students to learn but not as reliable in self defense).  From this position, you can transition and swing the back side leg over and into the arm bar.

However, my difference in choice of technique execution from the video of Mr. Kim might just simply be due to fundamental differences in our martial backgrounds and experiences.  Mr. Kim's execution up to the wrist lock is good because if he needs to, he can easily let go and escape himself if the situation changes (multiple attackers etc).  This ideal of Hapkido technique execution I agree with and one reason I practice the art.  However when he chooses to go to the arm bar, he fully commits to an engaged battle with the attacker and even risks giving up his position in the likelihood of a scramble and can no not as effectively assess the situation for changes.


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## Steve (Nov 20, 2014)

Raymond said:


> Inwan Kim's Hapkido technique is top notch and I would love to train HKD with him.  But I'm not sure an armbar was appropriate from there, as I don't feel the pain compliance of the wrist lock gives you enough positional dominance and control to secure the arm bar.
> 
> Personal opinion time:
> Many traditional artists (including HKD folks I have met) look at joint locks as using a small limb to bring down a mighty oak.  However, if you just cut a branch off of a tree, the rest of the trunk stays up right?  However among the various grappling arts (BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Sambo etc) to fully break the limb of the tree, we have to control the trunk and then we can move out to any branch we want.
> ...


Hey, that's exactly the kimura I was recommending from that position!


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## Raymond (Nov 20, 2014)

Steve said:


> Hey, that's exactly the kimura I was recommending from that position!



Yeah.  To make it TL; DR from my post, it's nothing I find wrong with Mr. Kim's technique, just his "choice" of finishing technique isn't my cup o tea.  I think he was well off just with the wrist lock. 

The wrist lock from that kimura position is fun.  Even if they grab the belt to defend the kimura like in that pic, you can still use pressure on the wrist with your fingers to create the bend.  I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, hard to describe in text


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 21, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> At 2:30 - 3:10, I know it's no ideal camera angle but what are the thoughts around the application of the arm bar?



The move he begins about 1:12, ending in the person being on the ground from the arm bar, is not something I remember learning in the Hapkido I studied.  We would have gone ahead and taken him to the ground from the arm bar pressure point in the triceps.  You can keep him under control and deliver a strike to the head, usually the temple.  The take down to the arm bar is obviously possible, but needs to be done quickly to get him into position for the take down with the triceps pressure point, before he can react.

The goose-neck, the way I learned it, we would have stepped on his hand with our inside foot (possibly/probably breaking fingers in the process, as well as controlling the hand), the other knee to the ground, pushing against his arm with the inside knee, and again, struck his head, probably with a back knuckle or sudu stride.  Of course, there are other ways to acquire a gooseneck.

Nothing I have said is meant to criticize the move shown.  Any move you can consistently make work is a good technique, and you can never have too many tools in your tool box.


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## jezr74 (Nov 23, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> The move he begins about 1:12, ending in the person being on the ground from the arm bar, is not something I remember learning in the Hapkido I studied.  We would have gone ahead and taken him to the ground from the arm bar pressure point in the triceps.  You can keep him under control and deliver a strike to the head, usually the temple.  The take down to the arm bar is obviously possible, but needs to be done quickly to get him into position for the take down with the triceps pressure point, before he can react.
> 
> The goose-neck, the way I learned it, we would have stepped on his hand with our inside foot (possibly/probably breaking fingers in the process, as well as controlling the hand), the other knee to the ground, pushing against his arm with the inside knee, and again, struck his head, probably with a back knuckle or sudu stride.  Of course, there are other ways to acquire a gooseneck.
> 
> Nothing I have said is meant to criticize the move shown.  Any move you can consistently make work is a good technique, and you can never have too many tools in your tool box.




I agree, the arm bar shown is the way we are taught. So when we are doing some ground work lessons, the arm bar is sometimes referred to. In general, we are taught along the lines you have described. First line of defense with the locks and pinning, I don't think I'd utilize an arm-bar personally at least not outside a known environment and clear number of assailants as I personally feel vulnerable in that position, I'd rather position the grounded attacker between me and the next opponent, or maintain control.

As to the OP, I think I understand how ineffective it is now. I had a bit of a play at the arm-bar as done in the OP, the only way I could attempt to get that to work would be to force my way through it assuming the opponent was weaker than me enough to be able. And then if I'm able to, it's not good HKD. (the same for escaping)

After rolling around with this, I can see how off it is now. But while it's good they are looking to expand their repertoire, some more effective guidance would go a long way.


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## Hanzou (Nov 25, 2014)

Yeah, like I said I was very surprised to see two Hapkido black belts not be able to pull off a proper armbar.

Is there free sparring/randori/rolling in Hapkido, or do the students just do partner sets?


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## jezr74 (Nov 25, 2014)

Our school does, not sure if that is common or not.


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## Raymond (Nov 26, 2014)

I would encourage any Hapkido dojang that prides itself on "realistic self defense" to start including at least elementary grappling curriculum trained by a competent grappler.  Good martial arts that base their values on real self defense should grow and evolve to address modern combative needs.  With the rise of mixed martial arts, dedicated grappling is becoming more widely practiced and just the general untrained lay person who watches mixed martial arts is exposed to grappling and as they say "monkey see monkey do".  However, the instructors of the dojangs have to be able to admit when they don't have the answers, and seek out an expert to help shore up their grappling self defense if necessary rather than imitate or make up techniques they don't understand (as in the OP).


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## Chrisoro (Nov 27, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, like I said I was very surprised to see two Hapkido black belts not be able to pull off a proper armbar.
> 
> Is there free sparring/randori/rolling in Hapkido, or do the students just do partner sets?



Depends on the school, the instructor, the style, the time of day, the color of the paint on the walls, etc. The point is that Hapkido is perhaps one of the most diverse arts there is, as a lot of Choi Yong Sool's original students started their own schools with their own focus and take on things, incorporating techniques from other arts which they thought were useful, and their students went their own way again and started their own schools. The result is that you got everything from schools having absolutely no sparring at all to schools doing a lot of it.

I regularly tapped out Hapkido black belts on the ground long before ever getting a black belt myself(since I had been training other stuff like BJJ/Judo a few years before starting hapkido), but I was recently tapped out myself by a non-black belt student from another hapkido club who threw out a lot of really well set up leg locks when rolling with me(I tend to tap very quickly on most kinds of leg locks putting torque on the knees, as I have more or less permanent injuries to both my knees). Afterwards, I asked him where he had learned those leg locks, and he said learned  them in his hapkido club and had never trained anything else.

Just as karate goes from no-contact schools/styles focusing mostly on kata all the way to Kyokyshin and Daido Juku, there are currently more than a hundred Hapkido schools, usually tending to have their own focus, and different curriculums), and also dozens of organizations also having different focus on what is the "best" way to do things, there are no simple answer to your question above.

Here's an example of one expression of Hapkido:





Looks a bit different than the two gentlemen in the first post, or what? 

Aklso, to get an idea of difference of focus within the art, take a look at the previews of these two books, including the table of contents, of how different Hapkido can be to...well Hapkido. 

Hapkido: Korean Mixed Martial Art:
Hapkido Korean martial art mixed martial art jujitsu jiujitsu self-defense technique ground technique striking technique Qi Dennis Kim 9781470157012 Amazon.com Books

Power Hapkido: Essential techniqes:
Power Hapkido Essential Techniques Myung Yong Kim Jung Kim Ki Kim 9781463632793 Amazon.com Books


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 8, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Is there free sparring/randori/rolling in Hapkido, or do the students just do partner sets?


The one I did had quite a bit of free sparring.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 8, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I came across this vid earlier today, and I wanted your opinions about it;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see the defender running into a problem as soon as the attacker started to resist heavily,.he is basically tying to stop an armbar with one arm. Lifting the leg like he did would not be that easy without additional leverage. The attacker could easily pull his arm straight and apply the armbar quickly, breaking his arm.


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