# kids and kempo



## marlon (Mar 21, 2007)

I may have lost a student.  a 9 year old girl who has been blue for about a 8 months to a year was testing for green stripe.  Some things were off  some techniques were mixed up...not so big but some principles were missing such as proper distancing for strikes many angles in the forms, some stances were not as solid as before, lack of presence in the forms and techniques...still seeming to try and remember the moves rather than flowing to make it work.  So i ended the test early gave her some corrections to work on and said we would finish it in 4 days (the test).  She seemed ok  with it but the next class the mother, irritated did not bring her and stated that she did not know if she would ever come back.  i stated that i thought i explained things well and that maybe i should speak to her again and the mother said well she does not want to speak to you!  It is irritating and frustrating to have taken the time to explain and re asssure and still get this attitude.  But i would rather close the doors than give a belt away un merited, which i may have to if a few of the other students feel the same way because my dojo is small and rent expensive.  In this case am i being to harsh?  BTW i really thought that with a little effort and re focusing she would have made it.  She has been focusing on swim meets lately, which is great but still does not mean i should give the belt for a sub par prefomance

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Blindside (Mar 21, 2007)

My instructor has a saying "I have never given you anything."  Is this girl going to value a belt that she knows she failed, but got it because she threw a fit?  What kind of lesson is that?  She wasn't ready, she didn't pass.  Seems pretty simple to me, nice to see someone holding their high standards high!

Lamont


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## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2007)

Sounds like with her focus on the swim meets, she has too many things on her plate.  That is a decision that she needs to make for herself, what she values more.  A good life lesson for her to learn at an early age.  Maybe she will come back later, when she can focus more fully on her training with you.


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## jdinca (Mar 21, 2007)

In line with what Flying Crane had to say, it sounds like she's getting bored with ma and focusing more on swimming. I've had students about that age do the same thing. I had a 9 year old blue belt who had tremendous talent who decided to play soccer and never came back. On the flip side, I have a 10 year old busting his but to get to blue belt. He took a couple of months off last fall to play soccer and did come back. This is after he failed several belt tests. Personally, I think he's the better for taking the break. He's much more focused and now understands what that step means in our system. Blue belt for us is a big deal. He now understands what's required of him and he's 98% there. I plan on testing him again this month.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2007)

marlon said:


> I may have lost a student. a 9 year old girl who has been blue for about a 8 months to a year was testing for green stripe. Some things were off some techniques were mixed up...not so big but some principles were missing such as proper distancing for strikes many angles in the forms, some stances were not as solid as before, lack of presence in the forms and techniques...still seeming to try and remember the moves rather than flowing to make it work. So i ended the test early gave her some corrections to work on and said we would finish it in 4 days (the test). She seemed ok with it but the next class the mother, irritated did not bring her and stated that she did not know if she would ever come back. i stated that i thought i explained things well and that maybe i should speak to her again and the mother said well she does not want to speak to you! It is irritating and frustrating to have taken the time to explain and re asssure and still get this attitude. But i would rather close the doors than give a belt away un merited, which i may have to if a few of the other students feel the same way because my dojo is small and rent expensive. In this case am i being to harsh? BTW i really thought that with a little effort and re focusing she would have made it. She has been focusing on swim meets lately, which is great but still does not mean i should give the belt for a sub par prefomance
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I get the impression that the mother was not present during the class or the test session?  If thats the case, then her reaction does not surprise me at all.  Way too many times, I've had parents drop the kid off, never coming in, never watching a class, nothing.  The child comes in and leaves by themselves.  And then the parent wonders about the progress?  

It may be a good idea to have a private meeting with the parent and the child.  At this time, you can explain what the issue is, as it seems that the parent is getting the childs version of the story.  If the parent refuses, then as much as I hate to say it, but its probably best to say good bye to these people.  IMHO, just going on what I've read, it seems like the child is concerned with just getting belts, and the parent is unaware.

I do not feel that you did anything wrong.  I applaud you for having the best interest of the students in mind. 

Mike


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## karate-dragon (Mar 21, 2007)

Sometimes the child is just frustrated and/or over tired and over extended (swim, school, controlling parent), and their reaction has nothing to do with what you said at all!! But as hard as it is to feel that you can't get through to them, more may have seeped though than you thought. They may reflect on all of this and come back later a little more focused. At any rate, you stood to your ideals and principles and that's all you can do. If higher ranks were easy to attain than everyone would have them. I think giving in is what's wrong with the martial arts today. On the flip side, you may just be dealing with a spoiled child and a parent that defends their child right or wrong, in which case they probably are lost and there is nothing you can do.


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## Carol (Mar 21, 2007)

I don't think you did anything wrong Marlon.  

She is 9 years old, and she's been blue for 8 months to a year.  She may not think that doing Kempo is her thing.  Or her mom may be just as unbearable to her at home as she is to you. 

A 9 year old child should be in Kempo for one reason...because they want to be there.


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## jdinca (Mar 21, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I don't think you did anything wrong Marlon.
> 
> She is 9 years old, and she's been blue for 8 months to a year. She may not think that doing Kempo is her thing. Or her mom may be just as unbearable to her at home as she is to you.
> 
> A 9 year old child should be in Kempo for one reason...because they want to be there.


 
It's real easy to pick out the ones who don't.


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## Callandor (Mar 21, 2007)

From your story, you weren't "too harsh". I even applaud you for doing the right thing even when knowing that you might possibly lose a student and that you need those students to pay the rent.

I also understand your concern of keeping the dojo doors open. After all, what good is being a "proper" instructor of a school which strictly adheres to tradition if the school is no more?

One solution, perhaps, would be having two different sets of classes. One would be the traditional class which teaches your regular curriculum, and the other would be the wimp's class (call it differently, of course) which is more of lectures, theories, and a little basics. The first is for those interested in real kempo and the second is for donors/sponsors. The belt system for the second group would be the same as that of the first except for a white longitudinal stripe in every rank. They could, of course, upgrade.
Just a thought for you to consider; I'm not sure if it's right or if it would work.


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2007)

that's great.  those are the students one can really enjoy.

Marlon



jdinca said:


> In line with what Flying Crane had to say, it sounds like she's getting bored with ma and focusing more on swimming. I've had students about that age do the same thing. I had a 9 year old blue belt who had tremendous talent who decided to play soccer and never came back. On the flip side, I have a 10 year old busting his but to get to blue belt. He took a couple of months off last fall to play soccer and did come back. This is after he failed several belt tests. Personally, I think he's the better for taking the break. He's much more focused and now understands what that step means in our system. Blue belt for us is a big deal. He now understands what's required of him and he's 98% there. I plan on testing him again this month.


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2007)

A 9 year old child should be in Kempo for one reason...because they want to be there.[/quote]


I agree...actually it is the only reason for anyone to be there.  Thanks 

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2007)

Callandor said:


> From your story, you weren't "too harsh". I even applaud you for doing the right thing even when knowing that you might possibly lose a student and that you need those students to pay the rent.
> 
> I also understand your concern of keeping the dojo doors open. After all, what good is being a "proper" instructor of a school which strictly adheres to tradition if the school is no more?
> 
> ...


 

Thanks...i have thought of things like that but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth...and yet closing would suck... i need to find and consider some options.

Marlon


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi Mike,
actually the mother takes the classes as well...in fact a few weeks earlier the mother mentioned to me that this little girl was upset at the thought that another child(a friend of hers) might pass a purple belt test undeserving...!!!??!!!  I do not get it at all...hence my frustration.  Anywho, i asked for a talk and got a semi snarcky remark..it bother me..but i will not change how i teach.  The mother was there during the testing...in fact i even noted her brother (a brown stripe with not much natural talent but an extremely hard worker and patient and respectful) was shocked at some of her errors, if i read his face correctly.  In any case i was venting when i posted this.  I wll not change how i teach...mike's idea is something to consider and if i close then so be it...better than put my name on something i would not respect.  I will try some other ways to increase enrollment and of course keep training and learning myself.  Thanks for listening

respectfully,
Marlon



MJS said:


> I get the impression that the mother was not present during the class or the test session? If thats the case, then her reaction does not surprise me at all. Way too many times, I've had parents drop the kid off, never coming in, never watching a class, nothing. The child comes in and leaves by themselves. And then the parent wonders about the progress?
> 
> It may be a good idea to have a private meeting with the parent and the child. At this time, you can explain what the issue is, as it seems that the parent is getting the childs version of the story. If the parent refuses, then as much as I hate to say it, but its probably best to say good bye to these people. IMHO, just going on what I've read, it seems like the child is concerned with just getting belts, and the parent is unaware.
> 
> ...


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## Matt (Mar 22, 2007)

marlon said:


> I may have lost a student.  a 9 year old girl who has been blue for about a 8 months to a year was testing for green stripe.  Some things were off  some techniques were mixed up...not so big but some principles were missing such as proper distancing for strikes many angles in the forms, some stances were not as solid as before, lack of presence in the forms and techniques...still seeming to try and remember the moves rather than flowing to make it work.  So i ended the test early gave her some corrections to work on and said we would finish it in 4 days (the test).  She seemed ok  with it but the next class the mother, irritated did not bring her and stated that she did not know if she would ever come back.  i stated that i thought i explained things well and that maybe i should speak to her again and the mother said well she does not want to speak to you!  It is irritating and frustrating to have taken the time to explain and re asssure and still get this attitude.  But i would rather close the doors than give a belt away un merited, which i may have to if a few of the other students feel the same way because my dojo is small and rent expensive.  In this case am i being to harsh?  BTW i really thought that with a little effort and re focusing she would have made it.  She has been focusing on swim meets lately, which is great but still does not mean i should give the belt for a sub par prefomance
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Marlon, I believe you did the right thing. And to do so, when it was difficult, and inconvenient, and had the potential to cost- that made it real. It's easy to be principled when everything is going your way. When you stick to your principles facing adversity, that's real character. You made the right choice. There are some of us out there who are taking the reins to return SKK to a respectable place, and it takes actions like yours to do so. I hope your students value this lesson. It should really tell them that what they are learning is real, and not some sort of 'belt factory'. 

Good luck, 

Matt


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## BigKiai (Mar 22, 2007)

Had she been solid in her lessons / classes before the test? I only ask as I'm curious if it was just an off day.

I'm a firm believer in a belt being earned, not given away. Kudos!

Regards,

Mike


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 22, 2007)

While I certainly think you did the right thing, remember that children take disappointments such as this very much to heart and may have appeared to listen to you out of her desire to please an adult, but completely different thoughts may well have been going through her head. The parent's place is to put it (disapointments and difficulties) in perspective for them and also use it as a life lesson in perseverance. Apparently the mother failed _her _test, but you passed yours.


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## Callandor (Mar 22, 2007)

Jonathan Randall said:


> Apparently the mother failed _her _test, but you passed yours.



Yup... I kinda like what Jonathan said. You did the right thing, marlon.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 22, 2007)

Hey Marlon, you're obviously a very dedicated, caring teacher. You made a judgment call for a _kid's_ benefit and long-term heatlh and welfare, and the child and mother didn't like it. Hard for us to take as teachers, but life can be hard, and you were just trying to prepare her for life (through martial arts). Kids often don't want to grow--who does, it's painful. But it's necessary. So you did the girl a favor by letting her know she was not really at that belt level yet. But you were so gracious about it, and so open to alternate testing times, a quick retest, etc. that it pains me to think they wanted to blame you (of course, this is what often happens--shoot the messenger, and all). 

I know some instructors who really are harsh, even with children. That I don't like, since it's hard enough to grow up today IMHO. But your description shows you're not like that at all. All we can do when we lose one is keep plugging. Somehow, someway, the numbers, rent, and all the other concerns will work out. It may not look like we think, but it'll work out. Kudos for doing the right thing for kids at your school. Investing in kids is forever. :asian:


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## kosho (Mar 22, 2007)

Marlon,
          Hope this finds you  well. I also feel you did the right thing. 
I tell the parent and child the first time we meet this dojo is hard  and I do not give anything away. I also for a blue belt with a stripe. give NO mistakes for any forms, combs, punches, kicks, blocks, stance. I give 2 mistake for self defense and 2 for kempos. thats it.  I tell everyone how hard this test is  NO physically hard but mind melting. I have lost adults  and kids at this test. I also have others try again and again. Its there journy not yours  all you can do is guide them the best you can  and with kids, something else gets there eye. and there gone. I would not take it to heart even thought its hard to lose some one you put so much time into. as far as the parent giving you a mood issue. thats also something she or he needs to learn to deal with. you have put so much time and focus into your studys  that I also can not just pass some one at that level. I also am a small Dojo  and know what you mean about things  and costs. Do not be hard on yourself. you are  a great teacher  and student of the Martial arts.  looking forward to training with you again
 kosho


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2007)

marlon said:


> Hi Mike,
> actually the mother takes the classes as well...in fact a few weeks earlier the mother mentioned to me that this little girl was upset at the thought that another child(a friend of hers) might pass a purple belt test undeserving...!!!??!!! I do not get it at all...hence my frustration. Anywho, i asked for a talk and got a semi snarcky remark..it bother me..but i will not change how i teach. The mother was there during the testing...in fact i even noted her brother (a brown stripe with not much natural talent but an extremely hard worker and patient and respectful) was shocked at some of her errors, if i read his face correctly. In any case i was venting when i posted this. I wll not change how i teach...mike's idea is something to consider and if i close then so be it...better than put my name on something i would not respect. I will try some other ways to increase enrollment and of course keep training and learning myself. Thanks for listening
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hi Marlon,

Its good that this family is taking class together.   I was just curious to whether or not the mom was present during her daughters classes.  If not, then despite her being a member of the school, she could be unaware of her progress.  I've also been in the same situation when you said this:



> in fact a few weeks earlier the mother mentioned to me that this little girl was upset at the thought that another child(a friend of hers) might pass a purple belt test undeserving...!!!??!!


 
I would often have a parent say, "Well, my Johnny started at the same time as Jimmy and Jimmy is moving on so much faster."  I would do my best to explain, but sometimes it fell on deaf ears.

I don't think that you'll end up closing your school doors over this, but if the parent is not willing to be reasonable, then IMHO, it would be best for them to go and find a school that gives belts out faster.

Good luck with everything and again, two thumbs up for keeping solid training values! 

Mike


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## bill007 (Mar 22, 2007)

marlon said:


> Thanks...i have thought of things like that but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth...and yet closing would suck... i need to find and consider some options.
> 
> Marlon


 
Hi Marlon, please don't close down there's some options for sure, call me if you want to talk, I'll be back in town in june.

Dom


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## Tames D (Mar 22, 2007)

Kick the mother and the daughter out and don't look back... give in to them and you will have 'attitudes' with the rest of your students as well.


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## DavidCC (Mar 26, 2007)

I would invite the mother and daughter for a private chat if they show up again.  Tell daughter how well she did, and hwo she is an example to the rest of the class.  Tell her that not apssing the test, and coming back and trying again and passing it, will be an even bigger inspiration on the kids in the class who look up to her as somebody they want to be like. Tell her how much she has improved recently, and ask her why she thinks she made the mistakes she made.  That could be a very interesting and long conversation, do not accept "I don't know" as an answer.

If Mom has any sense at all (not to be assumed) then she should come around to understand as you go down this line of conversation.

if they don't get it, they will leave soon.

if they leave, be sure to use it as an opportunity to teach the ones that stay.  Be discreet, the students' will get the principles, and the parents will get the message.

At our school we have contracts, so they would be owing the payments for tuition even if they quit.  So I would do what I could, this could be a turning point in this girl's ENTIRE LIFE so you have to try to make it right.  but if they refuse to learn, then I have no reason to keep them in the school where they can only have negative impact.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 27, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> I would invite the mother and daughter for a private chat if they show up again.  Tell daughter how well she did, and hwo she is an example to the rest of the class.  Tell her that not apssing the test, and coming back and trying again and passing it, will be an even bigger inspiration on the kids in the class who look up to her as somebody they want to be like.



Excellent advice. _We _know this as  long-time survivors in the MA, but  the kid and her Mother probably don't. 



> if they don't get it, they will leave soon.


Very true. You won't have to 'get them' to leave.



> if they leave, be sure to use it as an opportunity to teach the ones that stay.  Be discreet, the students' will get the principles, and the parents will get the message.


Very important point. Again, don't assume that the students or parents are able to sort it out in the same way you can. Sometimes we have to tell them direclty so they connect the dots. But discreetly, even obliquely, as Dave said.


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## BigKiai (Mar 27, 2007)

Hi Marlon,

Please let me know if they have come back. This can turn out to be a story of one who rises to the challenge, or someone who backed off on the first failure. Maybe she would be inspired to hear how many times Abraham Lincoln failed in his life; he never stopped trying.

Regards,

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I don't think you did anything wrong Marlon.
> 
> She is 9 years old, and she's been blue for 8 months to a year. She may not think that doing Kempo is her thing. Or her mom may be just as unbearable to her at home as she is to you.
> 
> A 9 year old child should be in Kempo for one reason...because they want to be there.


Kids are fickle.
sean


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