# Reputation of some Western teachers of Taiji



## Field Cricket (Feb 6, 2003)

Hello all.

Today I found out that my current Taiji instructor is currently being taught by a number of different people: Bruce Kumar Frantzis, Paul Cavel and Master Ma Bao Guo.

I've only ever heard of the first one myself, and only because of his book on internal martial arts. The question I have is, what kind of reputations do these people have (as exponents of their respective arts)? From his book I'm not quite sure what to make of BK Frantzis, as I found some of his claims to be a little extreme. But I'm a generally skeptical chap who has only just started out in Taiji! 

Thankyou.

FC


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## Matt Stone (Feb 6, 2003)

I remember a number of years back that B.K. Frantzis was not exactly well received...  I know a number of people questioned his training and knowledge greatly.

Apparently, though, he has somehow made good and is now accepted and seemingly respected.  Not sure if this is because he is legitimate and simply managed to prove it (all I ever knew was that he was a karate and judo guy that knew some taiji, too; next time I hear of him he is some closed door disciple of millions of grand ultra masters...  :idunno: ), or if folks just forgot their earlier ideas about him.

I have never met him, trained with/under him, etc., so I really can't say all that much about him.

Never heard of the other guys at all...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## ECYili (Feb 6, 2003)

The last I heard of B.K. is that he really got into the qi-gong aspect of training and was hanging around alot of new age crispies and really wasn't doing much of the physical training.  But I could be wrong too.
  I do know a gentleman named Alan Ludmer a Tai Chi practitioner out of St Louis who met him a couple of times at semiars in the past and says he would do some less then desirable things during seminars (takeing cheap shots and things of that sort).  Again that was many moons ago and he could be a very nice man now.
  I've never met the man either so I can't say for certain.  These are things I just heard so take them for what they are worth.

dan


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## Taiji fan (Apr 1, 2003)

Interesting....I quite enjoy BK Franztis's books, but a freind recently took part in a training week with him and said he taught very little but name dropped a plenty and then got into a huge argument in the middle of a lecture with another guy......

Re. Paul Cavel, another freind has just started bagua training with him and is very impressed with him.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 1, 2003)

I wish I had kept my old Black Belt magazines...  When I moved from Japan, I tossed out everything I had.  I remember some years back that B.K. Frantzis had something of a mini-bio done in some article he had published.  In the article, what stuck out most in my mind, was that while the article was about Taiji, his background left much to be desired in terms of his CMA training.  There was mention of karate and judo, but hardly anything regarding Taiji or CMA at all...  That was why, when I first saw his book (and read the inner covers to find all of his lofty claims to training in China, etc.), I was skeptical.

Some folks whose opinions I respect rather liked his book, and they recommend it to their students.  I haven't read it (though it is on my list of "to buy" for reading material), so I can't comment on its content.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## yilisifu (Apr 1, 2003)

His books are a strange mix; some good information and some utterly useless new-agey garble.  His qigong book has a LOT of new age type junk in it......

   I've not met him - but he now teaches in Marin County (near San Fransisco) which is home to a lot of new age crispies who have big bucks.  That may ccount for his newfound fondness for some of this new age stuff.

   He did study briefly with Wang Shujin but was thrown out of his class - I don't what why, but Wang refused to teach him after that...


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## moromoro (Apr 2, 2003)

what about earl montague is his "stuff" the real deal?????


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## Taiji fan (Apr 2, 2003)

Re: Erle Montaigue......is he the real deal...depends on what you call the real deal I suppose.  I have spoken to him via email a couple of times and he seemed like a nice bloke, but I have also watched a number of his videos, His version of Yang taiji is not structurally correct and I saw him doing a double sword bagua form which was amateurish to say the least.  I get the impression he has learned loads of forms with no real depth to any of them.  He was apparently awarded the degree of 'master' in China by whom I have no idea and lets face it, you could go up to any dim sum seller and get them to scribble  something on a piece of paper.......he apparently learned some amazing stuff from a guy up a mountain  who didn't think his own family were sincere enough to learn the family secrets......but earl was... :uhoh: so I guess you need to see his stuff and make up your own mind.  I am sure he is a pretty capable fighter, but wonder if the lineage and training is not a bit of fantasy.  Sorry if I am doing the guy a disservice, he seems to have quite a following in the UK though....go figure


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## krys (Jun 11, 2003)

I once trained for a short time (4 months) with one of Erle Montaigus students (Mohamed ..., can't remember his full name).

He was the only Bagua-Hsing I -Tai chi instructor I saw in flesh and blood who was able to use his arts in real fighting.
He also had good knowledge of Chinese medecine.

This guy would do the Bagua walk two hours a day and had legs like trees.....
Nobody among us  liked to do pushing hands with him..... quite painfull....

He was one of the few serious martial arts teacher I saw in France. Actually he would select students and test us periodically (kicked out the tourists...), which was a very good thing.

Saddly he disapeared one day, (think he got some troubles with his girlfriend, one of the major problems of  training).....
I wonder if somebody has some news from him... (I guess there are not that many instructors of Montaigus system in Europe).


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## moromoro (Jun 12, 2003)

hi krys

there are plenty of his students here in OZ....


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## krys (Jun 12, 2003)

Hello Terry.
Seems I am always in the wrong place....

The Montaigu people are very good.
Before moving into combat training they let you do some Chi Kung to prevent injury and to developp Qui. It is hard work, I nearly fell to the ground sometimes, and was sweating like in a sauna, but there are lots of benefits....

The students of Tai-Chi who are not interested  in fighting do not like it usually....

Did you see one of their classes?

Thanks,
Christian.


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## moromoro (Jun 12, 2003)

hi chris

i have met earl montaihgu before in a martial arts shop here in brisabane a few years ago, he used to live in brisbane. unfortunately i have not seen any of his classes, have you seen his website

www.taichiworld.com 

theres some good info plus plenty of ebooks. 

i admire earl as a reseacher he has made several research trips to the philippines to conduct interviews with such GM as Tatang Illustrisimo, this was back in the early 80's. Earl was also prominent as a writer/researcher in several local MA mags australsian fighting arts...... most of the eskrima interviews where conducted by earl....

as far as his taichi/ kungfu/ qigung i dont know, i dont do the system and i have seen and listened from several people here in Australia who dont like him and what he teaches, i have also heard people praise him and what he teaches...... He may be very good but from what i have seen and heard you either really like him or hate him (in his martial arts).......


thanks

terry


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## krys (Jun 12, 2003)

Hello Terry,

Thanks for the website.
Wow mainland chinese knive fighting?!
I never saw that and have a look.


" i admire earl as a reseacher he has made several research trips to the philippines to conduct interviews with such GM as Tatang Illustrisimo, "

I did not know he is interested in FMAs...

"i have seen and listened from several people here in Australia who dont like him and what he teaches,"

That was the same in France. Most of the internal martial arts peoples there didn't like his  local instructor.
 That is a very good point for him as I didn't like these peoples too....
They couldn't apply was they taught, and it was really crap...
Once saw an add of  a russian there who promoted a Tai-Chi "devoid of  any martial      intentions".... see the picture and the public...

I understand that different peoples have different reasons to learn the internal arts
 but this is not an excuse to degenerate them.....

Thanks,
Christian.


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## Field Cricket (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _
> *Interesting....I quite enjoy BK Franztis's books, but a freind recently took part in a training week with him and said he taught very little but name dropped a plenty and then got into a huge argument in the middle of a lecture with another guy......
> *



   I've just re-read BKF's book on the internal arts. What you say here seems to tally with my impression of the book: lots of name dropping and talking his own abilities up.

*



			Re. Paul Cavel, another freind has just started bagua training with him and is very impressed with him.
		
Click to expand...

*
That's very interesting. Does he teach Baguazhang so that you can fight with it? My current instructor has made it clear that he is really only interested in teaching the health side of Taijiquan, Hsing Yi and Baguazhang, so I may have to find somewhere else to train.

And whilst I think of it, am I right in thinking that Paul is based in Oxfordshire?

FC


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## Taiji fan (Jun 13, 2003)

Field Cricket:  Yes, Paul teaches Bagua for fighting, he is actually based in France but making regular trips to the UK to teach.  There is a Lau Gar guy in Fife who is studying with him and bringing him up very soon... www.taijiscotland.org.uk/bagua will give you some details.


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## yilisifu (Jun 13, 2003)

Yes, if your teacher is only teaching a health form, wish him well and leave.


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## Field Cricket (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Yes, if your teacher is only teaching a health form, wish him well and leave. *



My instructor teaches the 97 move Sun style Taiji form (though only the first 20 moves for the moment) which I believe is a proper martial form. But because of his (and to be fair most of the class's) interest in the health side, we spend much more time on qigong work than pushing hands or the form. (About 50-20-30 in the same order).

I will move on to train with someone else once I'm fit enough and I've found that someone!  I went to the particular class I did as it was the only one in the area that even mentioned the martial side of Taiji. And it mentioned Baguazhang. 

Whilst I'm posting I might as well ask people: if you know of a genuine chinese internal martial arts instructor in the York/Leeds area of the UK I would be most grateful if you could PM me (or post of course) and let me know. If you live in York or Leeds there might even be a pint in it for you. 

FC


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## East Winds (Jun 18, 2003)

Field Cricket,

You could try

Zhong Ding Traditional Chinese Martial Arts in Leeds (07967-405992) 

or

Yiheyuan Chinese Internal Martial Arts also in Leeds (0113-2568793)

Alternatively have a look at the Tai Chi Union for Great Britain  website for a list of Registered Instructors. www.taichiunion.com

Best wishes with your search


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## RobP (Jun 18, 2003)

FC - call Dave Nicholson, he's the best IA instructor in the York area: 01430 860664

Be prepared to work hard though


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## arnisador (Sep 11, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Shadow Hunter (Oct 13, 2003)

I just got the book "Power Taiji" second hand. I was somewhat surprised in that the author Earl Montigue says that you should do "weighted turns." In other words, instead of moving back and then when the weight is off the lead foot shifting your feet you should shift while the weight is still on the lead foot. I have never heard of this before. I do not have a very broad education in Taiji, but I have had a long experience under a few teachers and I have never heard of this from them.

Also, Earl M also seems to say that everything that we know as Yang style Taiji is wrong and only his version is the combat effective version. I find that hard to believe. 

Has anyone else heard of this type of weighted turn in Taiji, especially in the Yang style?


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## Taiji fan (Oct 13, 2003)

I also have a copy of te book you refer to and have seen Erle on video.  It would appear that what he is describing is a misunderstanding of a real weighted turn.  Rotations onto the front leg such as the transition from left ward off into right ward off involve a weighted rotation on the front leg....but in the way Erle has done them in both the book and video during the step forwards, is the best way to damage your knees.  The degree of weight-shift is directly related to how much you need to turn a foot or step, it is also part of the connection between upper and lower body as well as understanding the yin phase of the movement.  It is correct to sit back ( to varying degrees) to clear enough weight to reposition the lead foot.  When taking a step and therefor spending some time on one leg.....the weight should be 100% on the supporting leg.



> Also, Earl M also seems to say that everything that we know as Yang style Taiji is wrong and only his version is the combat effective version. I find that hard to believe.


  yes I have heard that before.  It is interesting that his Yang style bares little resemblance to the Yang family's style......draw you own conclusions from that one! :asian:


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