# "Rock solid sword techniques"?  I don't think so...



## Swordlady (Jul 7, 2006)

The scary thing is that many people would probably think that this flashy stuff is "real" swordsmanship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdn_HSASAOQ&search=sword cutting

Call it swordplay.  Call it entertaining, if this is your cup of tea.  But please don't call it "solid sword techniques".


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## Grenadier (Jul 7, 2006)

Ugh...

I can just picture some inexperienced people trying this at home with sharp blades.  I can also picture a surgeon being able to buy that lake-front property after having to treat such individuals.  

In all honesty, the sword tosser in that video looks way too young to be a teacher of any sword art, be it Iaido, Kendo, Kenjutsu, Fencing, etc.  Every serious school that taught swordsmanship would never teach someone to let go of the weapon, much less toss it around in a way that would, at the very least, result in someone being easily disarmed.  

I don't know whether to laugh at the kid, or severely pity him, since someone could easily make him the next "Star Wars Kid."


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## Swordlady (Jul 7, 2006)

The kid in the video is 15-year-old Jacob Kabel, who competes in XMA (Extreme Martial Arts) tournaments.  XMA itself is a travesty of the traditional martial arts.  And yes, I can also see inexperienced people - especially kids - try these same stunts with some _sharpened_ stainless steel SLO.  Not good at all.


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## Shaolinwind (Jul 8, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> The scary thing is that many people would probably think that this flashy stuff is "real" swordsmanship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdn_HSASAOQ&search=sword%20cutting
> 
> Call it swordplay. Call it entertaining, if this is your cup of tea. But please don't call it "solid sword techniques".


 
In that outfit he reminds me of perhaps a young version of Alexander Anderson from Hellsing.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 8, 2006)

It's performance based stuff, and I don't think they'd claim anything else.  Hopefully in the full version he points out to never use live blades.  Century has a few "Rock Solid" videos, XMA is fine, they do cool stuff, they are great athletes.  Is it traditional?  No, and as long as they don't say it is where is the harm?


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## KOROHO (Jul 8, 2006)

I wouldn't be too surprised to see that his next video is called
"Stupid Sword Tricks with Lefty Cabel"


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## Andrew Green (Jul 8, 2006)

Ever seen the weapons they use?  They're not real, they are stage props, not going to chop of a limb with one of those.  I think the "traditional" guys doing "traditional" stuff and insisting on live blades all the time are at bigger risk.


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## pstarr (Jul 8, 2006)

Gee, this must be some secret technique that's been withheld for centuries...


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## mtabone (Jul 8, 2006)

Andrew GreenEver seen the weapons they use? They're not real, they are stage props, not going to chop of a limb with one of those. I think the "traditional" guys doing "traditional" stuff and insisting on live blades all the time are at bigger risk 

Hello.

I practice all the time with a stainless steel blade bought from the Hai Dong Gum Do Fed. (dull blade) and an Aluminum blade bought for Hai Dong Gum Do from kendogumdo.com. I also am a "traditional" martial artists. 
I only basicly use my live blades when I cut. I have no need to do a form or basic technique, and loose a finger or limb because of a mistake. One can get the real feel and understanding of a live blade with a dull blade, if one keeps the correct mindset. Liveblade.com also has great dull blades, one is carbon steel and one is aluminum. 

These throws and stuff are great show, not real martialy sound in the least. 

Hai Dong,

Michael Tabone


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## Swordlady (Jul 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> It's performance based stuff, and I don't think they'd claim anything else.  Hopefully in the full version he points out to never use live blades.  Century has a few "Rock Solid" videos, XMA is fine, they do cool stuff, they are great athletes.  Is it traditional?  No, and as long as they don't say it is where is the harm?



I have more of a problem with the _wording_.  Calling this video "Rock Solid Sword Techniques" could make the viewer believe that s/he is watching "real" swordsmanship.  Even the description of the video is misleading:



> This title includes all the basics and fundamentals that you will need to use the sword. Lessons include forearm and wrist stretches, 8 basic cuts, stabbing, 8 positions, blocks, conditioning, knee slide, safety, sword history and a whole lot more!



By the way, TotalVidInc is the distributor of these "Rock Solid" videos.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 8, 2006)

Here is another interesting video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfIF1S6XJtg

I post it in order to compare and contrast with the first.


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## Charles Mahan (Jul 8, 2006)

You know... I had assumed that it the first video it was a gullible guy who got tricked onto Attack of the Show and suprised with the pig.  Then he felt on the spot, paniced and went ahead with it.  This time though... it's clear he's just a goofball who doesn't know any better.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 8, 2006)

Wow the first one "Rock Solid Sword Techniques" should just be placed under a rock.    The next one is a recipe for someone to get killed.  The talk show lady weilding his sword at the end was just scay.  They were very fortunate that she did not carve up one of them by mistake.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Mcura (Jul 8, 2006)

At the risk of sounding snobbish, I have to say those clips illustrate perfectly why some people should never be allowed near live blades.  I'd hesitate to let those two in my kitchen, let alone the salle.


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## crushing (Jul 8, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> The scary thing is that many people would probably think that this flashy stuff is "real" swordsmanship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdn_HSASAOQ&search=sword%20cutting
> 
> Call it swordplay.  Call it entertaining, if this is your cup of tea.  But please don't call it "solid sword techniques".



I don't see the swordsman in the 'Mind Body and Kickass Moves' video link below performing the circus juggling act with his sword.  I suppose flipping the sword around would be flashy way to start dying within two seconds.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 8, 2006)

I found the second clip really hard to take seriously at all. Grinning and whacking away at the pig and beef carcass was a means to show how *NOT* to do it. 
Stuff like this is going to lead to more darwinan award candidates and those to an eventual banning of these weapons. 

Who knows if we're lucky we'll see some stupid schmuck slicing him self on a faces of death type video on the net. Maybe that'll be a deterrent?? .... NAH!

It's one of the reasons why I enjoy watching those old Samurai epics by Kurosawa and actor Tishiro Mufune. There was *never* a scene of flashy twirling or some crap like that. Swords were held correctly (at whatever en-garde postion chosen), executed correctly and treated respectfully.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 9, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> It's one of the reasons why I enjoy watching those old Samurai epics by Kurosawa and actor Tishiro Mufune. There was *never* a scene of flashy twirling or some crap like that. Swords were held correctly (at whatever en-garde postion chosen), executed correctly and treated respectfully.



Yes, but honestly, I prefer the Hong Kong flashy weapons flying through the air approach, much more entertaining.  And that's what that clip is teaching, entertainment, something which has been around just as long as any traditional style.  Sword juggling, fire twirling, stage fighting, always been there and there will always be a place for it


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## Chris deMonch (Jul 9, 2006)

I suppose it's a matter of different strokes fer different folks.  Not my cup of tea on any level, but as it stands the world is bigger than the tastes of Chris deMonch.  What these kids can do is pretty impressive, as you sure as hell aren't going to see my *** doing mid air cartwheels or the like.  Where I would, and do, take issue is when they go about calling it swordsmanship, which it isn't.  Being able to flip a sword in the air, do a backflip, catch it, and then proceed with a figure 8 or whatnot may be tough to do, but it isn't swordsmanship.  It's acrobatics.
As far as interesting to watch goes, give me Kyuzo's introduction match in Seven Samurai over any of the fights in Kill Bill any day of the week.  But hey, that's just me.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

While I did not care for Chris Crudelli talking the whole time during the demonstration this is a nice clip of Japanese Swordsmanship :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys&mode=related&search=

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

Quite a different look than the earlier videos in this thread!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 9, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Yes, but honestly, I prefer the Hong Kong flashy weapons flying through the air approach, much more entertaining. And that's what that clip is teaching, entertainment, something which has been around just as long as any traditional style. Sword juggling, fire twirling, stage fighting, always been there and there will always be a place for it




While I enjoy watching a good flick. 

I also enjoy watching stage stuff as well.


I think the issue is that most people do not understand that the XMA is stage performance. Some people might try this at home - aka videos sales - and hurt themselves. 


I stopped by the local training troupe for the Ren Fest a couple of years ago. I could not get over all the mistakes I had to make to stage fight for the word of safety. While it may look cool, I did not agree with the techniques, and where opposite from where I wanted my training to go. So I only did not continue. 


Now, I did like the link that Brian put up there, and it was very nice to see the effectiveness of basics.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 9, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I think the issue is that most people do not understand that the XMA is stage performance. Some people might try this at home - aka videos sales - and hurt themselves.



Can't blame the people that do it right for the people that watch at home.  Same could be said for the traditional stuff, which is more likely to encourage live blades, or other dangerous sports...  pretty much any "trick" based sport.  

I also really doubt that ANYONE believe this is "real" sword fighting and not stage work.


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## Chris deMonch (Jul 9, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I also really doubt that ANYONE believe this is "real" sword fighting and not stage work.


 
You'd be surprised.  I'm a great big manga nerd, and I've seen people coming into the dojo with outlandish concepts even by my standards.  As to traditional dojo using live blades for training, we ARE learning how these weapons are actually used.  If you're worried about cutting yourself on a live blade, there's always habiki or bokuto, or even iaito.  However, if you're training in any bladed weapon art, you should go into it expecting that you'll get cut once in a while.  It's just the nature of what you're training with and why you need to learn to be careful with it.  In that context it makes sense to use them and learning all the inherent dangers that come with them.  What no school of koryu budo is going to do, however, is treat the sword like a baton.  Comparing training and safety in combatative heiho and XMA is really apples and oranges.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 9, 2006)

Chris deMonch said:
			
		

> apples and oranges.



That's about it, XMA and classical sword styles are completely different and should not be compared.  But both have a place and for one to knock the other looks silly.  Like a tour de france competitor taking shots at BMX guys as it is not "Real" or vice versa...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> That's about it, XMA and classical sword styles are completely different and should not be compared. But both have a place and for one to knock the other looks silly. Like a tour de france competitor taking shots at BMX guys as it is not "Real" or vice versa...


 
Yes it is very hard to compare the two.  One was designed for war and the other is designed for show or hollywood.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## pgsmith (Jul 10, 2006)

> Like a tour de france competitor taking shots at BMX guys as it is not "Real" or vice versa...


I agree Andrew, except the analogy isn't quite right. In my mind it is more like a working cowboy taking shots at the folks doing tricks on their horses at the circus. While both involve horseback riding, one has traditional skills that are actually used, while the other has skills that are strictly for entertainment.

The extreme martial arts folks and karate tournament weapons kata are flashy, fancy, and look really difficult to me. Sorta like professional gymnastics. However, they are for entertainment purposes only, which the traditional arts are not. Many people that study the traditional arts get quite upset by the baton twirling stuff in the XMA. I can understand it as most that study the traditional arts put in a lot of effort and make many sacrifices in order to study their art. Many are also irritated by the fact that most people think that the XMA stuff _is_ real. However, I always advise those that get upset by it to remember that they are training for their _own_ benefit, and for the benefit of their ryu. Whatever anyone else does or thinks is irrelevant as long as it doesn't affect your own training. 

Many of the koryu in the Japanese sword arts have been around for several hundred years. As long as people continue to dedicate themselves to the ryu, they will continue to be around long after we're dead and forgotten.


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## Kreth (Jul 10, 2006)

pgsmith said:
			
		

> The extreme martial arts folks and karate tournament weapons kata are flashy, fancy, and look really difficult to me. Sorta like professional gymnastics.


And here your analogy falls apart. Gymkata proved once and for all that gymnastics is really a deadly martial art in disguise... :uhyeah:


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## Cryozombie (Jul 10, 2006)

pgsmith said:
			
		

> I agree Andrew, except the analogy isn't quite right. In my mind it is more like a working cowboy taking shots at the folks doing tricks on their horses at the circus. While both involve horseback riding, one has traditional skills that are actually used, while the other has skills that are strictly for entertainment.


 
I think the issue comes from "public" perception that they are the same.

You think that "Working Cowboys" would like people to think that what they do is the same as what a "Circus Cowboy" does since they both ride horses and have 6 shooters?

Or that MMA is as fake as Pro Wrestling, since both are done in a ring in an arena?

Or that Bujinkan Guys do what Sho Kosugi does since both use the term ninja?

Or that Johnny Depp played a believable Pirate? (sorry, had to get that in there)

It's hard to look at somthing you do with all seriousness... somthing that is your passion and you give your LIFE to... and then some assclown comes along with his fake and shiny glitter version of it giving people the perception that is what YOU do... without making you a bitty bit Irked.

It's all Ego, to be sure... but sometimes its hard to set that ego aside where your passion is concerned.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 10, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It's all Ego, to be sure... but sometimes its hard to set that ego aside where your passion is concerned.



Yup, absolutely.

But, it comes to everyone at some point.  Most of the people that call the flashy stuff "Ineffective playing" get upset when MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestlers, Boxers, etc. Say the same things about what they are doing.

All styles are fine, just for different goals and purposes.  

And I don't care if Jack Sparow is unrealistic, it's a damn good character


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## Jimi (Jul 10, 2006)

I can understand that XMA are for show and entertainment. Again many people don't have similar insights as we do as Martial Artists. Flipping a sword is great showmanship, it is absolutley not swordsmanship as some XMA's would have people believe. Many of these XMA practitioners may become the stunt-men/women and movie heroes of the future. I would trust they will amaze people with flips, acrobatics and stunts. I do not expect that any of them could pass on Martial Content from anything they perform. It is obvious that XMA practitioners, while very talented and athletic, are not trained to understand or teach the true function of such weapons or emptyhand tech's. I can enjoy the show so to speak, but when it is presented as true MAs, I choke on it.  Seeing a boy in a hakama flipping a sword, or nun-chaku, or sai, or kama etc... reminds me of a child dressed as a cowboy with a hat and 6 shooters yelling BANG BANG! All show. Sadly too many people will see this showy and empty performance and believe it to be true MAs. I have said it before, My instructors are rolling over in their graves, yelling why are you killing my art? The answer is , XMA practitioners and the like believe this will get them into movies and they will be the next Van Dam, Seagal etc... PEACE


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## Cryozombie (Jul 10, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> And I don't care if Jack Sparow is unrealistic, it's a damn good character


 
Off Topic, but if by "Damn Good" you mean "Eplileptic with Palsy who had a Stroke and Mumbles a lot"


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