# IKCA in Action



## bdparsons (Jan 21, 2005)

The IKCA has added a new section to their site you might find interesting. About an hour of free video including:

Preview Video

Black Belt Video Magazine #19 segment on the Karate Connection.

Check out the "Evolution of the Karate Connection" to see some IKCA folks in action. Chuck Sullivan is definitely looking to the future.

I heard the plans are to eventually work up to 4-5 hours of free video available to all. Definitely worth a looksee, decide for yourself.

http://www.karateconnection.com/videoclips.html 

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 22, 2005)

Having not yet met a video black belt who could hold his salt against one who earned it getting banged up in a class, I'll pass. I'm sure it's neat-o, but all the same...

Dave


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## bdparsons (Jan 22, 2005)

Then I'd definitely would have to say that your close-mindedness is your loss. 

Though obviously not everyone agrees with the distance learning format (and each is entitled to their opinion); to assume that all who learn in such a manner are substandard is naive, as is believing all who learn face-to-face are of a better quality. The presupposition that most fall to is that in all distance learning programs there is no accountablity for what is taught and learned. In some cases this is correct and these programs should be exposed for what they are, fraudulent money-making schemes. But there are cases where accountablity is the backbone of the program and credit should be given where credit is due. Sure you are going to have situations where some students are better than others, it's the inherent nature of the martial arts regardless of how they are taught. As an IKCA instructor, there are fellow IKCA Black Belts that I wouldn't give you two cents for, and others that I would let guard my back in any life and death situation. But I have found this to be the case with many martial artists and fighters I've met over the years from many varied styles and all taught with face-to-face instruction. I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that this has been your experience as well. Making such broad all-inclusive statements not only show a limited understanding and exposure, but an underlying arrogance as well.

May your journey as long as it has been already, be illuminated in the future.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## lonecoyote (Jan 22, 2005)

Great stuff! Thank you Mr. Parsons.


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## Sapper6 (Jan 23, 2005)

i once shared Dave's same opinion about distance learning.  i have since conceded to the fact that the ICKA teaches their program way differently.  it's not just them selling you a stack of videos with the diploma and belts attached.  you must video test and send that back for grading, they in turn critique your test and send back their comments on the same tape.  i also respect the idea that each test you perform must be done with a partner in order to show correct target striking and mechanics.  thanks for the link, it was enjoyable.

watch the preview video before you criticize their system.  Sullivan and LeRoux are NOT the fradulent black belt by mail people we all once thought they were.  i respect what they are doing.

btw, i am not a ICKA student and never have been.  i have no affililiation with them at all and have nothing to gain from my above remarks.  just an honest outsiders opinion.

i am Sapper6, and i approved this message :asian:


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## Rick Wade (Jan 23, 2005)

Let me start by saying I am not an IKCA member.
I do talk to Mr. Laroux on occasions and have worked out with some of his black belts.  I can tell you that his black belts hit hard and there are a few things I don't agree with I will also say that is because I haven't went threw their system.  I will tell you this that I personally know a green belt that moved and there was no kenpo for two hours.  He joined IKCA and test for yellow belt and didn't pass.  If you get involved you have to practice just like you do in a regular school.  So the best tip I can give you is get a partner that is as committed as you are and practice set aside time in your week just like with a regualar class.  Because let me tell lyou Mr. Laroux personally views each and every tape and he isn't easy.

*this isn't a cupcake course*.  If you treat it like one then you will get out of it exactly what you put into it.  

I here to tell you that If I didn't have an instructor around that I trusted I would join these guys.

V/R

Rick English


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## N.Somerville (Jan 25, 2005)

Well said Mr Parsons, i dont think the Grand Masters could have said it better.

Trust me guys you have to work hard to attain the belts in this system, its not easy and is very indepth...


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## Bill Lear (Jan 25, 2005)

:uhohh:


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## bdparsons (Jan 25, 2005)

Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## The Kai (Jan 25, 2005)

I second the opinion
Todd


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 25, 2005)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Then I'd definitely would have to say that your close-mindedness is your loss.
> 
> Though obviously not everyone agrees with the distance learning format (and each is entitled to their opinion); to assume that all who learn in such a manner are substandard is naive, as is believing all who learn face-to-face are of a better quality. The presupposition that most fall to is that in all distance learning programs there is no accountablity for what is taught and learned. In some cases this is correct and these programs should be exposed for what they are, fraudulent money-making schemes. But there are cases where accountablity is the backbone of the program and credit should be given where credit is due. Sure you are going to have situations where some students are better than others, it's the inherent nature of the martial arts regardless of how they are taught. As an IKCA instructor, there are fellow IKCA Black Belts that I wouldn't give you two cents for, and others that I would let guard my back in any life and death situation. But I have found this to be the case with many martial artists and fighters I've met over the years from many varied styles and all taught with face-to-face instruction. I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that this has been your experience as well. Making such broad all-inclusive statements not only show a limited understanding and exposure, but an underlying arrogance as well.
> 
> ...


My closed-mindedness is my loss? It's the intolerance of distraction or sub-par quality that's my greatest advantage.

I have already invested over 30 years of active training in kenpo ("active" not to include couch time), under the direct tutelage of men with excellent standards and technique. Even with that as a background, I spent 3-4 hours the other day under the direct instruction of Doc Chapel and one of his assistants, just getting straight on footwork, stances, and basics I've been donig since my 6th birthday...and I still have a lot more to do before I'm near the mark. Constant, ongoing correction and improvement towards a specific performance capability goal, from a guy whose technical understandings aren't questioned by even his most vocal critics. Some may not like his politics or demeanor, or the direction he's taking Sub-Level Four, but I haven't yet heard anybody be dense enough to say, "Doc don't know kenpo". Got sore like a newbie; corrected like a newbie; humbled by how much more there is to learn even after committnig the equivalent of a life-sentence to the art, and you want me to believe -- even for a second -- that video instruction and testing is going to give you the detailed minutae required to do kenpo well?

There is a lot of crappy kenpo out there; it's not hard, with a minimum of skill, to show up at a kenpo event, and fit in at the median or mean range of skill. If what you aspire to is mediocrity, then video courses are certainly the best option. If you demand integrity through excellence of yourself and your kenpo, then you have to yield to the simple fact that YOU CAN NOT LEARN THE MINUTE AND SPECIFIC DETAILS THAT MAKE KENPO A SOPHISTICATED SYSTEM VIA VIDEO. 

I have literally been in kenpo longer than a lot of the guys on this board have been alive. I have seen the studio-taught guys who suck, so yes, I know they are out there. Are they really to be considered the standard for comparison? Shall we choose the worst possibilities, and use them as comparators? Better idea. Let's choose the best, and use them. I'm spoiled, having had the geographic luxury to train with some of kenpo's greats and near greats here in Southern California (I read the phrase somewhere on MT about a year ago, meant in a derrogatory tone, "West Coast 1st Generatrion Senior/10-Degree black" like it's a bad thing).

Parker left us, the kenpo public, a legacy to carry on. Mr. Sullivan was a part of that legacy for many years, and remains a very talented and skilled "West Coast 1st Gen 10th Degree Black". And yet, somehow, unless they have sold themsevles out for rank, you will not find a single warm-body information-transferred 1st or 2nd gen kenpo BB on here from NON-IKCA roots saying "video good". The few 1st gens and masters we have on here (albeit diplomatically) all agree it's a bad thing. At the very least, and insufficient way to pass on the detailed information that makes up Kenpo.

The Journey is a hard one. And should remain so to seperate wheat from chaff. Disenfranchised chaff have found a way to participate in kenpo via video, and the IKCA has found a way to get paid by providing that possibility. At least Sullivans gettting paid. Most of our kenpo greats will pass from this life without having reaped the finncial rewards they richly deserve.

Dave


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## The Kai (Jan 25, 2005)

The view that Kenpo is a something that if you have more of it, you will therefore be a better Kenpoist.  Knowledge of Kenpo (or any othere Ma)is not collecting Forms, techniques and such.  Maintaining the art of kenpo is all in how well we learn from your seniors.  Given that commication even face to face can be misunderstood, how will the art be transmitted thru tapes??

Todd


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## bdparsons (Feb 3, 2005)

[Up front I will say I do not have firsthand knowledge with any other distance learning program other than the IKCA and can only speak to how they handle the distance learning process. Once again I emphatically state that there are certain (if not most) distance learning programs available that should be avoided like the plague, that do not have procedures and parameters in place to do what is necessary to insure quality instruction. "Buyer Beware!" is certainly the catch phrase in these situations.]

Mr. Crouch,

I admire someone who is firm in their convictions. It was my original intention to let your comments go by the wayside, to live with the fact we are diametrically opposed in our opinions, and to understand that I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't going to change mine. But the more I thought about it I realized that to let some of your objections go unanswered and concerns go unaddressed would be to foster a distinct misunderstanding of the IKCA specifically. This would do a disservice to those who may be struggling with the issue of distance learning. After all, we certainly wouldn't want them making up their mind based on misconceptions, would we? This should hold true for your position or mine. You obviously do not speak from direct experience with the IKCA and as many of the uninformed do, have made assumptions that are incorrect.

We actually have very similar backgrounds. I started in the arts in the summer of '72, and yes it was Kenpo. I took a different path shortly thereafter and spent the next 30+ years studying and teaching Hapkido, with varying degrees of exposure to other arts. That being said, I held exactly the same positions as you hold when I first learned of distance learning. Point for point we follow (or followed) the same talking paper when addressing this issue. I was as staunch as they come in the feeling that the only way one could learn martial arts effectively was face-to-face, toe-to-toe, in your face and on the mat. To be honest there are some facets of certain arts that I still feel the same way about today.

Let's address some of the issues you raise paragraph by paragraph:



> I have already invested over 30 years of active training in kenpo ("active" not to include couch time), under the direct tutelage of men with excellent standards and technique. Even with that as a background, I spent 3-4 hours the other day under the direct instruction of Doc Chapel and one of his assistants, just getting straight on footwork, stances, and basics I've been donig since my 6th birthday...and I still have a lot more to do before I'm near the mark. Constant, ongoing correction and improvement towards a specific performance capability goal, from a guy whose technical understandings aren't questioned by even his most vocal critics. Some may not like his politics or demeanor, or the direction he's taking Sub-Level Four, but I haven't yet heard anybody be dense enough to say, "Doc don't know kenpo". Got sore like a newbie; corrected like a newbie; humbled by how much more there is to learn even after committnig the equivalent of a life-sentence to the art, and you want me to believe -- even for a second -- that video instruction and testing is going to give you the detailed minutae required to do kenpo well?


Congratulations, sounds like you have had opportuniites others will never have. Just to be clear, let me say that I feel that face-to-face instruction is ALWAYS the best option. But what about those who have a passion for the art of Kenpo yet lack access to the impressive instructors you have had, or even qualified Kenpo instructors in their area? There are those that find themselves in this situation, both the inexperienced and the experienced. What do we say to them? Too bad, so sad, see ya? I'm not going to address, assume or insinuate anything concerning your choice of instructor, you're obviously happy with him, have a ball. Your statement concerning teacher-to-student correction and improvement towards a given performance capability has merit, but to assume that that's not present with the IKCA is incorrect. You appear to be unfamiliar with the IKCA process of structured teaching, testing, critique, expanded subject teaching and accountablity to demonstrate initial, corrected, and supplemental material. Granted, it is not as quick as face-to-face intruction would be, but when both parties are devoted to the process, be it via video lessons or supplemental in-person lessons, it is not only present but consistent as well. As for doing Kenpo well, as in face-to-face instructon, that occurs when the instuctor teaches well and the student learns well and ultimately that is demonstrated on the mat.



> There is a lot of crappy kenpo out there; it's not hard, with a minimum of skill, to show up at a kenpo event, and fit in at the median or mean range of skill. If what you aspire to is mediocrity, then video courses are certainly the best option. If you demand integrity through excellence of yourself and your kenpo, then you have to yield to the simple fact that YOU CAN NOT LEARN THE MINUTE AND SPECIFIC DETAILS THAT MAKE KENPO A SOPHISTICATED SYSTEM VIA VIDEO.


You're right, there is a lot of crappy Kenpo out there, in this we are in complete agreement. But I've learned that it's best not to assume anything until I've met a person on the mat. The danger in making broad assertions and assumptions is that things don't always turn out as you expect. Sometimes your dead on the money, other times you find yourself eating crow. Your statement concerning "integrity through excellence" presupposes that all those involved in the distance learning process are willing to teach and/or accept something less than excellence, another broad assertion not supported by fact. I, nor anyone else, have to yield to the assertion, not fact, that quality Kenpo cannot be learned via video. This is an assumption based on your own experience, but sadly it cannot be substantiated by  facts. The quality and end result of any teaching/learning experience depends on 1) the material, 2) the teacher, and 3) the student. The same as in the studio.



> I have literally been in kenpo longer than a lot of the guys on this board have been alive. I have seen the studio-taught guys who suck, so yes, I know they are out there. Are they really to be considered the standard for comparison? Shall we choose the worst possibilities, and use them as comparators? Better idea. Let's choose the best, and use them. I'm spoiled, having had the geographic luxury to train with some of kenpo's greats and near greats here in Southern California (I read the phrase somewhere on MT about a year ago, meant in a derrogatory tone, "West Coast 1st Generatrion Senior/10-Degree black" like it's a bad thing).


Again, congratulations on your longevity. As far as the standard of comparison, I agree that we should do exactly as you suggest. The best compared to the best, absolutely. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make in the previous post. There are folks who have learned Kenpo strictly by video that I most certainly would put against their counterparts who have learned in a studio, good, better or best. The heart of the point I was trying to make, however poorly I articulated it, was that there is always going to be a spectrum of talent and ability regardless of learning method. And no, I would not assume that on the whole video students, at least with the IKCA, are substandard. I agree you're probably spoiled; being in the Mecca of Kenpo will do that to you. But my question would be why haven't you contacted Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux and asked to see the results of those they taught via video instead of making assumptions as to their program's effectiveness? After all, they are right in the neighborhood.



> Parker left us, the kenpo public, a legacy to carry on. Mr. Sullivan was a part of that legacy for many years, and remains a very talented and skilled "West Coast 1st Gen 10th Degree Black". And yet, somehow, unless they have sold themsevles out for rank, you will not find a single warm-body information-transferred 1st or 2nd gen kenpo BB on here from NON-IKCA roots saying "video good". The few 1st gens and masters we have on here (albeit diplomatically) all agree it's a bad thing. At the very least, and insufficient way to pass on the detailed information that makes up Kenpo.


Nothing like a good back-handed compliment to try and make your point. Sure, you've got folks who disagree with what Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux have done with the IKCA. But there also those (1st and 2nd generation) who have seen good IKCA video folks in action and acknowledge (sometimes begrudgingly) the quality they observe. There are also those, some who may be closer than you think (on this forum), who say one thing when face-to-face with Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux, and then turn around and bad-mouth them to others. Seems like that integrity issue keeps raising it's ugly head. I personally would be hesitant to use this forum as a benchmark. Just because a few 1st generations who frequent here "agree it's a bad thing" don't make it so. To those I would be curious to see if they are speaking from firsthand experience or making assumptions, as it appears you are doing.



> The Journey is a hard one. And should remain so to seperate wheat from chaff. Disenfranchised chaff have found a way to participate in kenpo via video, and the IKCA has found a way to get paid by providing that possibility. At least Sullivans gettting paid. Most of our kenpo greats will pass from this life without having reaped the finncial rewards they richly deserve.


Again, I couldn't agree more, but for slightly different reasons. I'm intrigued by your use of the term "disenfranchised chaff". Believe me, the IKCA has had their share of those individuals. (To me disenfranchised assumes they were affiliated elsewhere.) The IKCA has seen all kinds come knocking. Many are looking to get their illegitimate rank recognized and to be affiliated with Parker 1st generation Black Belts. They don't like it when they are told "We don't recognize the person who awarded you your rank as a legitimate Kenpo Black Belt." and " You must go through the system from square one, just like everybody else." Some are legitimate and still balk at the fact they have to learn the system. The failure rate for video tests in the IKCA is 2.5-3 out of every 5 tests. Many who fail are those with previous martial arts experience and many of those come from a "solid" background of Kenpo, with more than a few being Kenpo Black Belts from other organizations. It's actually funny to see them pop up elsewhere under another Kenpo organizaton with a new stripe or two within weeks or months of being turned away by the IKCA. Granted some do stick with the IKCA, at least for the first test, some drop off when they realize video testing is more involved than they thought or when they fail, others continue to work work their way through the curriculum. For those who have completed the process, most are very satisfied with the Kenpo they've learned and with the organization; a few  aren't and on rare occasions some leave for various reasons. Sounds like the threshing process works quite well, thank you.

As to your intimation that Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux are in it for the money, selling the art they love out for the almighty dollar, all I can say is you don't know the men I know. Do they make any money? Sure they do, as do the 1st generation seniors who make their sole living giving seminars (some of which have never personally brought a student beyond Green Belt). Are they sitting atop the Kenpo video empire? Hardly. Compare their prices to everyone else, and remember that you only get charged a testing fee once (even if you fail and have to retest). A search of IKCA records show that only 3 out of 100 who ever make it to Orange Belt make it to Black Belt. If you would venture to take the time to know these men, as you appear to have made the effort to know others, you'll find two men who are passionate about the art of Kenpo and who love seeing people blossom and grow in their knowledge of this terrific art.

I certainly don't mean to assert that IKCA Kenpo is for everybody, it is not. The fact is thee are more than a few who are unable to handle the distance learning process. It takes a significant amount of self-motivation not everyone has. But I would assert that it is not substandard when learned and earned properly even when that learning occurs via video. What does properly mean? Proper practice, working the Kenpo on a live body (required during the testing process by the way), adherence to the standards set by the organization (video student or no), being held accountable for what you are required to learn. Frankly most who start the program never finish, isn't that the way it should be? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as are others. May your journey be a fruitful and enlightened one.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Michael Billings (Feb 3, 2005)

Bravo Mr. Parsons.  Your post is logical, intelligent, and cogent.  I appreciate the effort you put forth and your position.  Many of us are too quick to judge, myself included, when it comes to video instruction.  The $999/Black Belt with no tests, no videos, and by the way "your belt comes with your enrollment package", left a bad taste in many peoples' mouths.  This was NOT an IKCA claim to fame by the way.  You are right, unless we have seen the product of this training, skeptical though we be, we should not judge ... but rather let's "reserve judgement" and make no specific assumptions without evidence. 

 I personally do not know either instructor, although I am scheduled to teach at a camp this coming fall, at which Mr. Sullivan will be the featured instructor ... not a Kenpo event by the way, and am looking forward to meeting him.

 Thanks for taking the time to reply so thouroughly.  It is so easy for us to whip off a 3 line "video learning sucks" post, whereas that is not always the case.  I still see video as an adjunct to training, or ancillary to in-person lessons, which can certainly fill in a lot of the blanks, but as you stated, a live instructor IS THE BEST METHOD OF LEARNING.  Not everyone has this however, and being critical of them is our trying to make our own line longer by cutting another's short (cutting someone else down to make us feel superior).  Totally unnecessary if you are secure in your own training and abilities.

 Kudos,
 -Michael


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 3, 2005)

Mr. Parsons:

Well said, even if I still don't concur.  One point stands out in my mind above all others. The "warm body during testing" piece. Is that the only time they have the warm bod? If so, that cements my perspective even further, without my having to say a thing. But we can't have that, so...

In studios, class is typically divided into segments: Physical training and warm-up, basics drills, then techniques...which are practiced with partners. So, it's safe to say that, even in a school with no emphasis on sparring, at least 1/3 of the time is spent interacting with flesh and bone.  Now, for the next level. 2/3's are spent under a corrective eye (technique drills, plus the basics drills during which the instructor shouts to move this or that body part in or out, etc.).

Sparring, even though it has the capacity to engrain bad habits one might not want in the street, is an absolute necessity (yes, ABSOLUTE) for developing the timing, rhythem, and thick skin required to take basic skills, and interpret them into contact ability. I saw a thread where people were discussing the pros and cons of sparring, and if it's necessary. Simply put, yes. And the T.V. doesn't count, nor does the superman dummy. One of the oft-quoted Parker quotes is, "Pure kenpo is when pure knuckles meet pure flesh".  Can't get there with a video. Need flesh.  In a school or club, sparring nights are available for people to develop and hone their skills at closing the gap, responding to strategic threats posed by the placement of an opponents natural weapons and mal-intent, and exchanging blows in the heat of trade...trying to bonk the other guy in the head or nuts, while he tries to bonk you in yours.

And, by the way, I have met IKCA BB's. 2. Granted, not a quorem by any stretch. What I saw was sub-par.  That having been said, my own skills should be presently considered sub-par...I have not the wind to keep up with sparring at this time, and would not come close to passing one of my own black belt tests...grueling crisis and observation crucibles in which the stamina, skill and will of the individual are tested. I'd puke, pass out, and fail, to be sure. But I still know good kenpo when I see it, and in the 2 IKCA boys I've seen, it was not there.

I have a guy who blacked in Sam Pai under some of Joe Dimmicks guys before I met him. I took him to a next level with hard-core "Hawaiian ghetto" kenpo, kick-boxing, judo, and jujutsu. He is a large man, weighing in as a 6'3", 265 lb. 3rd degree black. If we are on it regularly, the boy gets wicked quick. We have spent literally several hundreds of hours over the last 12 years sparring together in different modes (match-style, boxing, kick-boxing, bare-knuckle, judo randori), and have alternately broken each others bones at one point or another. (We train very hard...it is very unpleasant...who can name the source of that quote?). I wouldn't wish him, angry, on people I dislike (nasty temper, that boy). We have had guests join us from many backgrounds in kenpo. He's the guy I sick on people when I'm feeling under the weather, and they want to know what it is we do. We have not been able to get together for a spell (not to mention our modes of training are not family-friendly), so he started at Bob White's not too long back...a kenpo school, known for it's emphasis on sparring skills. Now, giving him some slack because he was a bit rusty from a 2 year layoff...he got his hat handed to him by young guys half his size.

I've known Corey for many years, trained with him, bled with him, and brainstormed with him. He is not an easy man to best. Hat. Handed. Handily. I've seen the guy pissed with gloves off, and there is certainly room for conjecture on changes in outcome dependant on circumstance. But no cop-outs: He didn't have, on that particular Sunday, what it took to stop guys whom he is senior to in years, knowledge, and experience. They were in better shape, faster, and technically more skilled in knocking heads. They got that way by being in classes and training sessions with live, warm bodies. Held to the high standards of an excellent instructor, clanging bones with other men of high calibur, and pressing hard for that next level. Not an experience available through video. Yet certainly one defining -- in my eyes -- of a kenpo mans skill.

For most, I believe in the "Can't spar? Can't fight!" axiom. That having been said, the guys in Doc's crib don't bang around, and one of his brown belts just about put a hole in my chest with a braced check. Again, a specific skill developed under the direct tutelage of watching eyes and correcting hands. Constantly. Doc runs his classes with specfic attention to detail, and guages performance by what he sees, hears, etc. (there's a story in their about the sounds bodies make when thudded in different parts while in different positions). Nothing gets by the guy, and everytime you screw it up, you go back to the beginning and start again. That, I believe, is the principle reason his guys are dangerous without sparring. The detailed, highly held-to product and standards.  Outside of that exception, bupkiss.  

*How can a VCR or DVD provide the hundreds to thousands of hours of contact time that go in to building a solid kenpo black belt?* 

Maybe it's possible, but I'm not buying it. Haven't seen it yet, and don't believe I will. Someone tagged me on the brownie-point system with a negative karma point, saying I was bloated and some other such crap. That may be true. I've been very lucky. I have grappled with Gracies, kendo'd with Kunashigi's, and Kenpo'd with Parker 1st gens, plus a tad with the old man himself. I expect a lot. I make hard comparisons. I judge harshly, myself as well as others. I just don't believe that the mountain should go to Muhammad in the form of a VHS tape.  Mr. Conatser lived in Arizona, yet was a fixture around the Parker household as much as any couch or lamp. If you want to learn kenpo, travel. If you can't or won't, then study something else. It may not be for everybody, and proxemics are essential for the success of any relationship.

As you say, I will not likely change your perspective, nor you mine. Nevertheless, I am glad to have what appears to be a thinking man in the kenpo fold. Perhaps it will mitigate the effects of information water-down.

Journey well,

Crouch.


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## Kalicombat (Feb 6, 2005)

I have had similar discussions with Mr. Parsons on this exact topic in the past. I think we have agreed to disagree. However, in light of this recent posting, I'd like to add some of my experience with IKCA blackbelts, limited as it is. 

I attended an IKCA kenpo camp about 8 years ago I believe. When we finally got on to the actual training, I was impressed with how skilled SOME of the blackbelts at the event were. THey moved with fluidity, crispness, and displayed a good working knowledge of the IKCA material. I was sold on the IKCA and the fact that they produced serious blackbelts. However, as I got to talking to the participants, and we compared "sea-stories", it became quite evident that their movement was not derived from the IKCA videos, but actually, most of those I talked too were already blackbelts in EPAK. The guys that were strictly taught through the home study program, displayed knowledge of the material, but the difference between their movement, and that of the EPAK blackbelts was night and day.

Respectfully,
Gary Catherman


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## bdparsons (Feb 6, 2005)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I have had similar discussions with Mr. Parsons on this exact topic in the past. I think we have agreed to disagree. However, in light of this recent posting, I'd like to add some of my experience with IKCA blackbelts, limited as it is.
> 
> I attended an IKCA kenpo camp about 8 years ago I believe. When we finally got on to the actual training, I was impressed with how skilled SOME of the blackbelts at the event were. THey moved with fluidity, crispness, and displayed a good working knowledge of the IKCA material. I was sold on the IKCA and the fact that they produced serious blackbelts. However, as I got to talking to the participants, and we compared "sea-stories", it became quite evident that their movement was not derived from the IKCA videos, but actually, most of those I talked too were already blackbelts in EPAK. The guys that were strictly taught through the home study program, displayed knowledge of the material, but the difference between their movement, and that of the EPAK blackbelts was night and day.
> 
> ...



Hello Gary,

Hope things are well with you and yours.

I can certainly understand why you draw the conclusion you do, based on your own experience; and I also appreciate you clarifying that your experience is limited concerning this subject.

I have clearly stated at the beginning of this post and in other posts that the spectrum of how IKCA members move does vary, as it does in any school environment. What I can say from my own experience is that I've seen folks, entirely taught by video,that move just as well and in at least two cases better than some other folks than came over from other systems. I also have seen some IKCA Black Belts, along with Black Belts from various systems, EPAK included, that couldn't move anywhere near the standard that I personally felt they should be able to move, given their rank. (How's that for a run on?)

It bothers me that your experience has not left you with a better impression of the IKCA. That's unfortunate, but whatcha gonna do? On my behalf, all I can do is tell people of my experience, as you have, and encourage folks to do the research thoroughly if they are even considering a distance learning program. From my experience and the research I've done, the IKCA has the most accountable program out there. But I must once again return to the point that an in-person instructor should always be the first option, as long as they are qualified. (BTW, that's the position of the IKCA as well.) As much disposable income as some folks seem to have, not everyone has the means to avail themselves face-to-face to a qualified instructor. At that point three options remain, don't study at all; study from an unqualified individual; or see if there is any way to get instruction from a qualified instructor via another method, in this case a distance learning program. The latter is not for everybody, but there are those for whom it works and works well. In the final analysis, though, it is what happens on the mat, or in the alley, or in their home with a given individual that counts.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## BKing (Feb 7, 2005)

Hi,

First, I'd like to thank Bill for his inviting everyone to view the IKCA in Action video Clip. Its a nice clip with Chuck Sullivan narrating along with some IKCA members doing their thing. Its well done.

Second, the debate regarding long distance learning will continue "until the cows come home"... so to speak. Some will accept it as a viable option while others will never give it a try. Its ok.

I for one accept the IKCA video testing program as just part of what the organization has to offer. I have been an IKCA member for nearly a decade and have participated and grown from what IKCA has to offer in its entirety, not just video testing. The system itself along with Chuck's philosophy and his take on Mr. Parker's teachings and concepts have benefitted me greatly.

The IKCA is much more than video testing. The membership, the system, the support and personal growth I have gained as a Kenpoist has been a positive and an incredibly enjoyable experience for me. 

*Thorn in the eye*:

I believe if a person seeks to focus and find only the negatived or flawed within a system... they will find the negative or flawed within the system. If thats the focus they will surely find what they are looking for. 

Unfortunately, these same people miss the entire picture, the spectrum of what an art or system has to offer.

I have had the fortunate opportunity to meet and/or train with many great Kenpoist: Mr. LeRoux, Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Chap'el, Mr. Planas, Mr. Tatum, Mr. Johanssen, Ms. Tanaka, Mr. Pedersen, Mr. Whitsen, Mr. Muhammad, Mr. Williams, Mr. Rojas, to name just a few.

All have their take on the art. Many have been critized themselves and still some of the listed have done their own share of critizing of others. I guess its the nature of the beast.

When meeting them, I try hard to remove the "thorn in my eye" so that I can see with an open mind when learning from these great kenpoist. I have gain lots from attending their events or having persoanl conversation with them.

Dr. Chap'el is one that I could talk years with. I do enjoy his take on Motion Kenpo and SL4. A bright intelligent man. Never a wasted word.
--------------------------------
But, The system I have chosen to devote years to is IKCA. My personality just happends to fit with what Chuck and Vic have created. Video testing had nothing to do with my decision to work with them. It was the system itself and their teaching philosophy of what Kenpo is and isn't. It clicked with me.

There are many shades of grey within all organizations and systems. IKCA has some really great knowledgeable BB and we also have some that are still walking their path towards personal improvement. 

Its an individual experience. Video testing is just a small part of what they do.

*IKCA in a vacuum*

Every IKCAer I have met, be it here in Europe or in the USA, have had numerous training partners or had a working club or school while going through the system themselves. 

Many have been in MA for decades (myself included) before joining IKCA. We joined because of the system. Its functional, alive and IMHO effective as a stand-up self defense system. It works for me as does AK work for others.

I have never met anyone who got a BB in IKCA who trained in a vacuum. Are there IKCAers out there who have gotten a BB this way? I don't know.
-------------------------------
But, I have met several people who have gotten their BB in AK who can only attend seminars (because they work at night or other reasons) and who train once a month or so with an instructor. 

They do not train at a club or school. Their knowledge base begins with watching AK videos, training once a month with an instructor and attending Kenpo seminars. Thats ok too. It seems to work for them

I for one needed too train within a school/club system when I went through IKCA white-black. I worked the system everyday. Ground and pound, hitting the mats...etc. Sweat, blood etc.
-----------------------------
All my tests were done both in front of a large group, the traditional way with cameras rolling and a board of BB watching and critiquing. If they decided my test was good enough to submit to the HQ then we mailed it off. If not I'd have to test agin in a few months. 

I have enjoyed testing via video, its humbling and educational to see yourself
work the program. I have a rather nice video library of my journey in kenpo.
----------------------------------------------

Finally, thanks again Bill for posting the video clips and for your words of wisdom. For others who do not walk (or run) the IKCA path. I hope you find joy in your adventures in Kenpoland. Life is short. Enjoy.

Tusind Tak,
Brenda


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 7, 2005)

Great Post! IMHO, any who disregard your comments and experience regarding the Karate Connecton are behaving in a closed-minded manner. I've seen a couple of their videos and even I, after years of formal instruction, picke up some great pointers. I think one of their students would have the self-defence edge over a strip mall sport 18 month BB.


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## Sigung86 (Feb 7, 2005)

Hi Brenda,

Good to see you around again.  I'm back after a bit of a hiatus myself.  

IKCA material isn't bad at all, and in you, it has a pretty dedicated practicioner.  I've been through it myself without going through the testing portion and seen and learned a few things, and I've only been in/at the arts (however you interpret that) for 43 years or so.   :ultracool 

BTW ... Got sidetracked and forgot to send you your holiday Cheeseburger and Coke this year.    

Happy belated holidays.

Dan


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## bdparsons (Feb 7, 2005)

Just to let folks know that the IKCA has put up a free 45 minute video of highlights from the 2004 West Coast Kenpo Confederation held this past July 30th. This years gathering will be held on August 6th.

You don't live in a vaccum; why keep your Kenpo perspective in one?

http://www.karateconnection.com/videoclips.html

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## clapping_tiger (Feb 8, 2005)

I am coming late on this topic, but I just wanted to bring in my support for the IKCA. Mr. Parsons pretty much covered everything plus more than I have said.  My question is, have you ever trained or met an IKCA student?  If not, then what are you basing your opinion on?  You can't judge the skill of people you have not met, or trained with. Granted some don't cut it, and some just scrap by. But this is not the case with all. That is the same mentality as people who want to nuke the middle east because their all Terrorists.


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## The Kai (Feb 8, 2005)

there is bound to be a spectrum of the mail order black belts.  Some will be good some will be bad.  I don't think anybody could say that there is no good black belts to come out these programs.  I think the idea is that Video is a poor way to transmit the art, correct detail, physical re tool, teach nuances, and is more open to abuse (allthough it semms that could be argued too).  It's not the technology, or the idea that something might change-the question is mail order bb's done for quality control or the $$$??


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## Seabrook (Feb 8, 2005)

I watched one of the segments...very interesting with some excellent quality instruction.

It was neat seeing Vic teach, as well as Steve Sanders (Mohammad).


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## The Kai (Feb 8, 2005)

```
My question is, have you ever trained or met an IKCA student
```


Have you ever worked outside of the IKCA?


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## clapping_tiger (Feb 8, 2005)

That's a valid question
Sure I have, but nothing long term. Quite a few years ago I started at a school that claimed to teach Kenpo (A long story in of itself). At the time I didn't know any different, but the school actually taught some type of traditional Japanese Karate, but I don't know what the style was. Someone told me but I don't remember. I have also attended some non kenpo seminars ( escrima, Tony Blauer SPEAR based seminar), and have worked out on occasion with a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Have also worked very closely, although I have not joined the classes, with 2 instructors and some students in Combat Hapkido.  So aside from the Japanese karate school (which I hated, not because of the style but because of the instructor), I have not joined any other schools, but I have seen what they have to offer, trained with them here and there.


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## clapping_tiger (Feb 8, 2005)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Just to let folks know that the IKCA has put up a free 45 minute video of highlights from the 2004 West Coast Kenpo Confederation held this past July 30th. This years gathering will be held on August 6th.
> 
> You don't live in a vaccum; why keep your Kenpo perspective in one?
> 
> ...



I saw this when Vic came to the school last time. Pretty neat, I wish I could have been there.


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## The Kai (Feb 8, 2005)

Working out here and there, or even seminars give you a taste of the style but not really the "meat" of it.  So when you are quick to say Mail order jusy as good as - you base the statement on?  Number of Kata, techniques?  Learning techniques or Katas is like putting different pieces of a car together-there best be some underlying principles involved!   I don't think Combat Hapkido is gonna help you out much, and TKD has different signitures and power principles, along with different body mechanics.

Karate, Kenpo is like sex-watching it is only so fun-you gotta get sweaty to get better! (I apologize to the sensetive and the mods)


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## bdparsons (Feb 8, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Working out here and there, or even seminars give you a taste of the style but not really the "meat" of it.  So when you are quick to say Mail order jusy as good as - you base the statement on?  Number of Kata, techniques?  Learning techniques or Katas is like putting different pieces of a car together-there best be some underlying principles involved!   I don't think Combat Hapkido is gonna help you out much, and TKD has different signitures and power principles, along with different body mechanics.
> 
> Karate, Kenpo is like sex-watching it is only so fun-you gotta get sweaty to get better! (I apologize to the sensetive and the mods)



Todd,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Working out here and there doesn't cut it. It amazes me that folks assume you get through the IKCA program by working out occasionally, whenever the fancy hits you. (Oh, CSI's preempted this week, guess I'll plug in an IKCA tape to learn what a ball kick is.) I'm sure those who struggle through the distance learning program, or never get very far in it, do just that. But I'm here to tell ya friend, if you want to get anywhere with it you have to structure your time and be disciplined just as in any serious training program. A strong sense of self-motivation is absolutely necessary to advance in the IKCA program. I base my statements on the validity of good, accountable teaching by the IKCA on personal experience. I base it on seeing the failure rates of the video tests submitted. I base it on seeing belts of all different levels from all over the world coming together and demonstrating a proficiency and standardization as good as any school I've witnessed. I base it on seeing those turned away from the IKCA because they wanted things handed to them.

If folks would take the time to investigate the IKCA curriculum they'd find it based very strongly on the concepts and principles of Kenpo, because it is Kenpo. 

I'd also like to piggy-back on what Brenda said.  The program requires you demonstrate proficiency on a warm body, to include techniques demonstration, extension demonstration and free sparring matches. It does not occur in isolation, not does it occur without correction. To respond to Mr. Crouch I would say that I find it hard to comprehend someone would try to bring in a warm body just for filming the tests without working with a body repeatedly, again and again  beforehand. You'd get as far doing that as you would doing it the morning of a test in front of a examination board in a school.

As a side note, you'll find a strong agreement from me concerning Combat Hapkido.

BTW, I noticed on another thread you're a student of Bruce Juchnik? When, where and how did you study with him? He was my very first Kenpo instructor back in 1972. Great guy then, and I'm sure he still is today.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Istitute


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 9, 2005)

Oddly enough Bill, I was supposed to be in this video. I was watching it last night and thought OMG, there's Mike, Tracy, Bill LOL. Those guys used to be training partners and we were all USAF at the time, hence the short hair LOL.   


http://www.kenpohomestudycourse.com/kenpo/previewintrohi.htm


DarK LorD


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 9, 2005)

Well, I watched the video. The instructors -- guys who came up pre-video -- move about as one would expect. A lot of the guys in the background? I rest my case...and the damning evidence was presented by the defense. The mechanics of motion, timing, etc., ...looking like they need more face time.

Regards,

Dave


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## clapping_tiger (Feb 9, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Working out here and there, or even seminars give you a taste of the style but not really the "meat" of it.  So when you are quick to say Mail order jusy as good as - you base the statement on?  Number of Kata, techniques?  Learning techniques or Katas is like putting different pieces of a car together-there best be some underlying principles involved!   I don't think Combat Hapkido is gonna help you out much, and TKD has different signitures and power principles, along with different body mechanics.
> 
> Karate, Kenpo is like sex-watching it is only so fun-you gotta get sweaty to get better! (I apologize to the sensetive and the mods)



I think most, but not all,  people who find a style or system they like pretty much stick with that as their main art, and branch off from there in seminars or camps or whatever. I never wanted to become fully vested in another art, just help round things out a little bit. Some take on another art and add on that way. I have got everything I have wanted and expected from the Kenpo I have learned. There may be some confusion and it seems like you may be under the impression that I learned and trained via video. This is not the case for me. I was lucky enough to find a school and I learned from a certified instructor, of which is in the video.  I have had the opportunity to train with several people of different ages, sizes, builds, and intensity. We do all the same drills that AK practitioners talk about, and the sets. We also do 2 man sets for each belt level, and to be able to test for the next rank you have beat time limits and hit all the proper targets. I never have said that video training was the best way to go, but it is an option for some, it would not have been for me. As far as the Combat Hapkido, anything I have been shown, we have some form of it in our curriculum. And TKD does not fit into what I want and it doesn't interest me, that is why it never really went any further. I just realized that you were asking me if I have ever trained outside the IKCA in my Kenpo training. And that answer is no. It's not that I wouldn't, or that I think the IKCA's system is better. But it all comes down to what is available in this area and costs. I don't know of any AK schools in my area of Wisconsin.  I don't disagree with all that you say, as a matter of fact I agree with most of it. But I wouldn't classify the IKCA system as "mail order" kenpo. There are a lot of people just like me who train at or own schools. Many come from other arts, other kenpo organizations, or have studied multiple styles. If you have something against video testing that is fine, and I can see your point. But don't group the whole association into the "mail order" category.


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## The Kai (Feb 9, 2005)

Like I said working out is school is always the best option....

IKCA has made thier "mark" with thier Video Courses, yes.  Vic Laruix (sp?) has gone on in Black Belt Magazine about how the mail course people are better than those he has trained in person?  I realize that the IKCA has resources for those that want to go further.
As far as Local stuff, for years i have brought Kenpo teachers in to date oher Kenpo schools that have attended? (0).

BTW I ahve worked with Hanshi juchnik, to say i am a student is probably a bit much.  Though Hanshi has opened many doors for me.  did I learn from his tapes?  Oh no, here's the corner i painted myself into!  Of course I had been in the arts for about 17 years when i met hanshi-which gave me the base I needed


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## clapping_tiger (Feb 9, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Like I said working out is school is always the best option....
> 
> IKCA has made thier "mark" with thier Video Courses, yes.  Vic Laruix (sp?) has gone on in Black Belt Magazine about how the mail course people are better than those he has trained in person?  I realize that the IKCA has resources for those that want to go further.
> As far as Local stuff, for years i have brought Kenpo teachers in to date oher Kenpo schools that have attended? (0).
> ...



I agree that the IKCA has made their mark with the video courses, and I am sure what BBM wrote was taken out of context, but I could be wrong because you never know unless you were there. I have heard him say statements about how good some of the video guys are, but I have never heard him say that the video guys were better than the ones trained in person. 

I am missing the point on the local stuff, I am not sure what you are saying.


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## bdparsons (Feb 9, 2005)

> Oddly enough Bill, I was supposed to be in this video. I was watching it last night and thought OMG, there's Mike, Tracy, Bill LOL. Those guys used to be training partners and we were all USAF at the time, hence the short hair LOL.



Clyde - Good old Air force days, huh? You guys were at George AFB right? I was there back in the mid-70s when they had F-4s and F-105s, worked munitions. Before you rookies came along! BTW, thanks for the book, it's already been a benefit.



> Well, I watched the video. The instructors -- guys who came up pre-video -- move about as one would expect. A lot of the guys in the background? I rest my case...and the damning evidence was presented by the defense. The mechanics of motion, timing, etc., ...looking like they need more face time.



Dave - Thanks for taking the time, some folks would just rather spout off. Just curious, which clip was it you watched? Not gonna argue the point anymore, you've got your position and I've got mine. Just wish you wouldn't lump us all in the same boat and take each individual as they come. Hope you're able to get back up to par soon.



> BTW I ahve worked with Hanshi juchnik, to say i am a student is probably a bit much. Though Hanshi has opened many doors for me. did I learn from his tapes? Oh no, here's the corner i painted myself into! Of course I had been in the arts for about 17 years when i met hanshi-which gave me the base I needed.



Todd - I understand your point. Not that I agree obviously. I think you may be surprised how much an inexperienced person could accurately pick up off even the most casual viewing of most good martial arts tapes. Hope you enjoy the journey with Bruce.

Respects to all,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## still learning (Feb 9, 2005)

Hello, Really enjoy the videos.  Is it or is it not a good way to train? from Videos?  Um,  It does have it's place.  But I believe we all know it can't beat real live training with a person of knowledge guiding you.  

 If videos were that good most of us would us them? Do you agree?  It does have a place?  I found by viewing many of them, we do learn a few things. Our knowledge should be not limited and Videos,books,seminars do have a place in this knowledge of learning as much as we can. ...just my thoughts...Aloha


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## The Kai (Feb 10, 2005)

```
I think you may be surprised how much an inexperienced person could accurately pick up off even the most casual viewing of most good martial arts tapes.
```
 
 lets say a student comes to class twice a week, during one class you point out 2 things to correct, or details that were overlooked. Alright, that's 4 corrections a week, or 16 a month. Most lower belt testings take place over a 3 month span. That's 50 corrections or details, right? With video testing there is no correction. Kenpo is a not only a learning process, but a unlearning process too. Chance upon the right way, sure and randomly typing makes up a novel!

My perception(opinion, dogma)is that most mail order karate happens not because you can't find kenpo. But convienance and the idea that "I'm going into a basemaont and not coming out till you call me sensei"mentality. The "apprientiship" of the ma's is oftenmost the most critical stage, yet hated stage.


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## The Kai (Feb 10, 2005)

_*You may train for a long time, but if you merely move your hands and feet and jump up and down like a puppet, learning karate is not very different from learning a dance. You will never have reached the heart of the matter; you will have failed to grasp the quintessence of karate-do." - Gichin Funakoshi *_

Sorry to double post, but remembered this quote


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## bdparsons (Feb 10, 2005)

Excellent points. If I may address a couple:



> In video testing there is no correction.  Kenpo is a not only a learning process, but a unlearning process too.



Again, I can only speak to the IKCA processes. Correction is in fact an integral part of their distance learning program. As part of a critque, just like the face-to-face environment should work, corrections are given. More importantly, progression through the system is not allowed until the individual demonstrates the corrections have been made.

I totally agree with "unlearning" being part of the process. In fact, that's why some folks with martial arts experience have difficulty with the IKCA, because the necessity of demonstrating they have in fact "unlearned" bad habits is a sticking point for them. I would assume that even with your 17 years experience, when you began viewing and learning Bruce Juchnik's teachings you may have had to "unlearn" a thing or two? How did you know when you had it right? More importantly, how did Mr. Juchnik know when you had it right? What would your response had been if he had said, "Todd, it's gonna be a while before we are able to meet face to face. Do me a favor and shoot a video of yourself executing x-y-z from different angles so I can tell if you've assimilated the corrections we talked about last time we were together." This in fact is the process the distance learning program of the IKCA.



> My perception(opinion, dogma)is that most mail order karate happens not because you can't find kenpo.  But convienance and the idea that "I'm going into a basemaont and not coming out till you call me sensei" mentality.  The "apprenticeship" of the ma's is oftenmost the most critical stage, yet hated stage.



Valid concerns and points, and I think dogma is an appropriate term to use. I'm not saying that the basement scenario doesn't/can't happen. It's up to the individual program to police themselves to try and keep that very thing from happening.

____________
Let me say that from this point forward folks are certainly welcome to PM me if they want to argue/discuss the pros or cons of the IKCA distance learning program. Though I'm sure I will argue the pros and cons of distance learning again on this forum, for this thread I'm done.

One final point:  Face-to face instruction is ALWAYS the best option. I personally have never held any other position. But if that is not an option I would encourage anyone who even considers a martial arts distance learning program to look for a program that strictly holds you accountable for ALL the material you should learn. Don't think you can study in a vaccum. Work consistently with another warm body, and work hard contact on a heavy bag or dummy. Learning an art such as Kenpo in the air (by video or in a school) will only allow you to defeat opponents made of air. Be wise, be careful and be safe.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## The Kai (Feb 10, 2005)

Again Hanshi Jucnik is not really my teacher, I have done a lot of seminars with  him.  As to your scenerio, I have been approached to tape myself by others for "evaluation".  Something i never do.  We do not learn or add things into the school that we pick up from Video, it has to be via personal contact (we do keep video as a reminder).  Anarchranistic, probably.  But we know the Whys, the hows, the concepts behind everything and how it should be done

Unlearning stuff is a difficult process, as a simple story haow many times have you been told that you drop your hands when you punch, or drop your guard when you avoid a sweep.  How many times have you been hit with the counter punch and can't figure out why??  How long do you want to spend figuring this out on your own?

Again Video allows you to se the obvious, obvert,general movement


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