# Impartiality/lack of bias



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

I understand that several people here think that it is important to be impartial, to maintain an open mind, and to make sure inbuilt bias is compensated for. This makes sense when confronted with new information you don't understand, and before you have had time to process it.

But I don't understand maintaining such a stance after you have assessed the argument being made. I think that at this point you either agree or you don't, and pussyfooting around this reality is just a form of dishonesty, both with yourself and with everyone else.

In this way "seeing both sides" means either that you just don't understand the argument, that you are concealing your true beliefs, or that you have no opinion either way. In all of these cases, what is the benefit in making a comment? Usually it appears to be done in order to shame someone expressing a strong belief. If this is the aim then why not just be honest and argue the other side?


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> I understand that several people here think that it is important to be impartial, to maintain an open mind, and to make sure inbuilt bias is compensated for. This makes sense when confronted with new information you don't understand, and before you have had time to process it.
> 
> But I don't understand maintaining such a stance after you have assessed the argument being made. I think that at this point you either agree or you don't, and pussyfooting around this reality is just a form of dishonesty, both with yourself and with everyone else.
> 
> In this way "seeing both sides" means either that you just don't understand the argument, that you are concealing your true beliefs, or that you have no opinion either way. In all of these cases, what is the benefit in making a comment? Usually it appears to be done in order to shame someone expressing a strong belief. If this is the aim then why not just be honest and argue the other side?


Because I''m not here to argue. Martial Talk is a discussion forum for the friendly discussion of ideas unfortunately there are some who come specifically to argue.
I come to discuss and gain different perspectives not to argue or prove what I do and manner that I do it is the best or most correct way.


----------



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Because I''m not here to argue. Martial Talk is a discussion forum for the friendly discussion of ideas unfortunately there are some who come specifically to argue.
> I come to discuss and gain different perspectives not to argue or prove what I do and manner that I do it is the best or most correct way.



Nor me. But if you don't agree what sense in acting as if it is all good? Even more, what sense in arguing something you don't understand?

Again purposefully "seeing both sides" means either that you just don't understand the argument, that you are concealing your true beliefs, or that you have no opinion either way. In all of these cases, what is the benefit in making a comment?


----------



## Anuka (Dec 1, 2016)

For me personally, I try to keep in mind that just because it doesn't work for me does not mean it doesn't work at all. I suppose it's a wasted comment at that point, but I'm here because nobody in my day to day life wants to discuss or hear about martial arts. Even if nobody cares or responds, it feels like I'm part of something.


----------



## Buka (Dec 1, 2016)

I dunno'. Maybe because opinion, understanding and perspective can change with time and experience?

Maybe because you say tomato and I say Bloody Mary? Again I dunno'.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 1, 2016)

What sense in arguing at all?


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> What sense in arguing at all?


It does become pretty pointless.

At the end of the day, does it really matter if some schmoe on the Internet says something that you think is stupid?  im sure that same schmoe feels the same about a lot of the stuff the other guy says.  It's a two-way street.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> Nor me.


Really???



guy b said:


> But if you don't agree what sense in acting as if it is all good?


Why not simply state your thought or opinion and leave it at that? Must every thought or opinion be proven? Ask questions? Certainly. And answer questions presented to the best of your ability and let others absorb and do what they will with it. Does one have to right and the other wrong? It is a discussion forum and a let's see who can make the most propelling argument forum.



guy b said:


> Even more, what sense in arguing something you don't understand?


 What sense in arguing to begin with. If someone doesn't understand from your perspective so what? Do you understand from their perspective? 



guy b said:


> Again purposefully "seeing both sides" means either that you just don't understand the argument, that you are concealing your true beliefs, or that you have no opinion either way. In all of these cases, what is the benefit in making a comment?


 Again I'm not here to argue or to prove anything I come for discussion and different perspectives.

What do you think of the theory, "there is no right or wrong just the consequence."


----------



## geezer (Dec 1, 2016)

I have no problem with people holding and expressing strong opinions as long as it is done_ respectfully_. On the other hand, I would advocate a healthy humility, acknowledging that there are things each of us doesn't know, and recognizing that words are an imperfect way to communicate the details of a physical discipline. I would advocate avoiding automatically assuming that the other guy is wrong, as some are prone to do here.

An example would be post 235 in _The Need to be Recognized as Superior_ thread where _Guy B_ quoted _Gpseymour_ and objected to his impartiality regarding _Juany's_ comments on the legal risks involving choke and strangulation holds in police work.

_GP_ cautioned that much of the argument might just be a misunderstanding due to _semantics_. _Guy_ objected to _GP's_ "impartiality"  and  used the term_ *"barking mad"*_ to describe _Juany's_ comments. Subsequent posts by _Buka _and _Juany_ showed that _Juany_ had in fact made some excellent points, and that the terms_ choke and strangulation_ are used interchangeably not only in common parlance but _in the statutory law_ in many jurisdictions.

I would suggest that if _Guy_ had been _a bit more impartial_ in this case, the misunderstanding regarding chokes/strangulation holds could have been quickly cleared up and saved a good deal of useless arguing. The fact that immediately after this, Guy started this thread suggests that he still has no idea how arrogantly and abrasively he comes off to many others. A personality trait that's not likely to change. Oh well, I will just follow _GPSeymour's_ lead and try to remain impartial.


----------



## Marnetmar (Dec 1, 2016)

I don't care about a "personal belief," I care about what's true.

If you're not able or simply refuse to try and make solid case for why your position is correct, or it being correct requires skipping around contradictory points presented to you or somersaulting through five mental gymnastics courses, or keep to changing the criteria when you're proven wrong, why should what you have to say be taken seriously?


----------



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> Subsequent posts by _Buka _and _Juany_ showed that _Juany_ had in fact made some excellent points, and that the terms_ choke and strangulation_ are used interchangeably not only in common parlance but _in the statutory law_ in many jurisdictions.



Juany changed his argument about 5 times during the course of that discussion because he didn't know what he was talking about but was unwilling to admit it, He finally came up with the fact that the law in America apparently knows about as much about chokes and strangles as Juany does, i.e. nothing.

This is dishonest and completely pointless argument. You seem to be of the opinion that allowing people who are wrong to feel as if they are right is a good thing. It is not. It isn't polite, it is just cowardly and evasive.


----------



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> I don't care about a "personal belief," I care about what's true.
> 
> If you're not able or simply refuse to try and make solid case for why your position is correct, or it being correct requires skipping around contradictory points presented to you or somersaulting through five mental gymnastics courses, or keep to changing the criteria when you're proven wrong, why should what you have to say be taken seriously?



I agree


----------



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Why not simply state your thought or opinion and leave it at that? Must every thought or opinion be proven? Ask questions? Certainly. And answer questions presented to the best of your ability and let others absorb and do what they will with it. Does one have to right and the other wrong?



When someone is blatantly wrong, acting as if you didn't see it is a kind of dishonesty. 



Danny T said:


> If someone doesn't understand from your perspective so what? Do you understand from their perspective?



Not everything is relative. 



Danny T said:


> What do you think of the theory, "there is no right or wrong just the consequence.



It sounds ludicrous to me.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 1, 2016)

In MA, most of the time, there is no right or wrong but trade off.

Which one is more important?

- speed, or power?
- hard, or soft?
- front door entry, or side door entry?
- striking, or grappling?
- push, or pull?
- straight line, or circle?
- protect center from inside out, or protect center from outside in?
- ...

I try to stay away from questions such as "which MA style is the best?" Because no matter what your opinion may be, you will get into argument. IMO, to raise your blood pressure for online discussion is "stupid".


----------



## KPM (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> This is dishonest and completely pointless argument. You seem to be of the opinion that allowing people who are wrong to feel as if they are right is a good thing. It is not. It isn't polite, it is just cowardly and evasive.



But your attitude that you need to correct everyone you feel is wrong about VT puts you at odds with EVERYONE outside of the WSLVT lineage because you are convinced that WSL is the only lineage that has Ip Man's "real" Wing Chun.   So where does that leave you?  That leaves you to turn nearly every discussion topic into a pointless argument.  Don't you see that?  It is not your job to educate the entire Wing Chun world on how wonderful WSLVT is and how wrong everyone else is about what they do.  That is the arrogance that Geezer is referring to.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Dec 1, 2016)

Of course everyone is going to be biased in their own way to their own style doesn't mean they still can't respect others opinions and not have to call people out on it


----------



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

I accept that not many people here are interested in WSL VT. The reason for debate is not to educate or convince anyone who is not interested, it is to explore questions which are interesting and to provide material for people who are interested. The kind of fear of confrontation and avoidance of genuine argument and disagreement which some here demonstrate is an example of ego taking control, and is the most destructive form of arrogance, especially in martial arts or any other physical activity.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> When someone is blatantly wrong, acting as if you didn't see it is a kind of dishonesty.


Wrong...from whose perspective?



guy b said:


> Not everything is relative.


It is relative to what one knows or perceives. If I am speaking English and you are speaking French there is going to be a lot of differences. So who is correct.



guy b said:


> It sounds ludicrous to me.


There are many different perspectives and lots of gray. What in your WC that right and only right 100% of the time.


----------



## KPM (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> I accept that not many people here are interested in WSL VT. The reason for debate is not to educate or convince anyone who is not interested, it is to explore questions which are interesting and to provide material for people who are interested. The kind of fear of confrontation and avoidance of genuine argument and disagreement which some here demonstrate is an example of ego taking control, and is the most destructive form of arrogance, especially in martial arts or any other physical activity.



Complete and total BS!   You regularly ask people questions about THEIR Wing Chun to look for differences with WSLVT and then attempt to argue that those differences you see are somehow wrong.  Your ego does not allow you to let someone have their own opinion, but leads you to go after what you see as "wrong."  You have not openly shared information in the past when asked directly, so that puts into question the idea that you want to "explore questions which are interesting."  The most "destructive form of arrogance" is being convinced that you are right and everyone that sees things differently must be wrong.  THAT is at the center of nearly every thread that you have participated in that becomes an argument.  Yet you continue to not see that and want to blame it all on others.  Amazing!  You even started an entire thread that reeks so badly of hypocrisy that I'd almost think it was satire if I didn't know better!


----------



## Anuka (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> The kind of fear of confrontation and avoidance of genuine argument and disagreement which some here demonstrate is an example of ego taking control, and is the most destructive form of arrogance, especially in martial arts or any other physical activity.



 I believe acceping  other's beliefs is a sign of humility rather than arrogance.


----------



## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

Anuka said:


> I believe acceping  other's beliefs is a sign of humility rather than arrogance.



Refusing to confront for fear of losing is ego


----------



## Anuka (Dec 1, 2016)

Isn't that just making assumptions about people's motives and thoughts? I don't know you, or your experiences, but I do know you believe in your art and techniques for a reason. I have only 4 years of experience in mine, and it would be extremely arrogant for me to tell you or anyone else your doing anything wrong. It's not for fear of losing an argument.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 1, 2016)

See what's going on here?  Everyone is getting baited into the same old arguments again.

Someone here is really good at baiting.  He might even be a master at it.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 1, 2016)

guy b said:


> I accept that not many people here are interested in WSL VT. The reason for debate is not to educate or convince anyone who is not interested, it is to explore questions which are interesting and to provide material for people who are interested. The kind of fear of confrontation and avoidance of genuine argument and disagreement which some here demonstrate is an example of ego taking control, and is the most destructive form of arrogance, especially in martial arts or any other physical activity.


Actually many of us have an interest in WSL VT. 
Debate is to engage in argument for defending one's points and attacking the others points.  
Discussion is the act of talking with others and telling them your ideas and/or opinions.
From all the different opinions and banter it is obvious most here aren't avoiding disagreement.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2016)

Well, you all know what I say at this point...and I'm always right!


----------



## anerlich (Dec 2, 2016)

Everyone take some deep breaths and calm down. It's just an Internet forum. Nothing said here is of real significance. You don't have to win or even participate.


----------



## lansao (Dec 2, 2016)

guy b said:


> I understand that several people here think that it is important to be impartial, to maintain an open mind, and to make sure inbuilt bias is compensated for. This makes sense when confronted with new information you don't understand, and before you have had time to process it.
> 
> But I don't understand maintaining such a stance after you have assessed the argument being made. I think that at this point you either agree or you don't, and pussyfooting around this reality is just a form of dishonesty, both with yourself and with everyone else.
> 
> In this way "seeing both sides" means either that you just don't understand the argument, that you are concealing your true beliefs, or that you have no opinion either way. In all of these cases, what is the benefit in making a comment? Usually it appears to be done in order to shame someone expressing a strong belief. If this is the aim then why not just be honest and argue the other side?



Very good. I think this is where the scientific method and academia come into conflict with traditional concepts of respect/discipline. In science there's the saying "authority does not matter." In that sense, scientific discourse, when focused exclusively on arriving at truth, can get pretty damn offensive to the parties involved.

It doesn't have to be that way, and masters are often very skilled at applying appropriate pressure during debate not focused on crushing the opponent but on excluding all other possibilities but the truth from the conversation.

There are always opponents who won't change their mind or flex, and for that I quote John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty."

"I acknowledge that the tendency of all opinions to become sectarian is not cured by the freest discussion, but is often heightened and exacerbated there by; the truth which ought to have been, but was not, seen, being rejected all the more violently because proclaimed by persons regarded as opponents. But it is not on the impassioned partisan, it is on the calmer and more disinterested bystander, that this collision of opinions works its salutary effect."

~ Alan


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2016)

anerlich said:


> You don't have to win or even participate



Er...you do know we aren't trying to win and it's our site so we do participate. I don't pay NOT to participate lol.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 2, 2016)

@anerlich. You don't know me enough to disagree with what I said. When a post says _'I do or I don't not do something' _I don't see how you can disagree.
 I think you meant to click 'dislike'.


----------



## anerlich (Dec 2, 2016)

Happy now?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm so glad I missed the conversation that gave birth to this thread


----------



## Buka (Dec 3, 2016)

guy b said:


> I accept that not many people here are interested in WSL VT. The reason for debate is not to educate or convince anyone who is not interested, it is to explore questions which are interesting and to provide material for people who are interested. The kind of fear of confrontation and avoidance of genuine argument and disagreement which some here demonstrate is an example of ego taking control, and is the most destructive form of arrogance, especially in martial arts or any other physical activity.



I'm sorry, what is WSL VT, please?


----------



## guy b (Dec 3, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'm sorry, what is WSL VT, please?



Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 3, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Happy now?



Ecstatic, lol. One should always strive for perfection after all you can't all be me.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 3, 2016)

guy b said:


> Refusing to confront for fear of losing is ego



Ego ruled by fear. Seriously  When you lose, and everybody does in element, ego does not exist, usually a healthy respect for what went wrong. You really do come out with some funny stuff.


----------



## geezer (Dec 3, 2016)

@anerlich --I had to counter your "dislike" on Tez's post above with a "like" --just to prove to all that I'm not afraid to disagree! Nobody's gonna accuse me of namby-pamby impartiality. Beyond that, I'll second Tez in shouting, *Ghurkas!*


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 3, 2016)

geezer said:


> @anerlich --I had to counter your "dislike" on Tez's post above with a "like" --just to prove to all that I'm not afraid to disagree! Nobody's gonna accuse me of namby-pamby impartiality. Beyond that, I'll second Tez in shouting, *Ghurkas!*


                             -------------------------------------------------
Gurkhas, gorkhas

from western Nepal and spilling over into parts of northern part of my home state-Bengal.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> Gurkhas, gorkhas
> 
> from western Nepal and spilling over into parts of northern part of my home state-Bengal.



Now that's going to start an argument! When the London Olympics was on, at work we were watching the women's boxing, the UK girl Nicola Adams was fighting an Indian lady who I'd watched a documentary about, an amazing women who I happened to say to my Gurkha shift partner didn't look Indian but Chinese, I then got a rather long lecture ( friendly I hasten to add) about the Indians conquering and taking away Nepalese land! It must have happened quite a while ago but the resentment is still there to see! 
These days the Gurkha regiments in the UK are open to all Nepalese who can pass the tests to get in, the Military here is also open to all Commonwealth citizens.


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Now that's going to start an argument! When the London Olympics was on, at work we were watching the women's boxing, the UK girl Nicola Adams was fighting an Indian lady who I'd watched a documentary about, an amazing women who I happened to say to my Gurkha shift partner didn't look Indian but Chinese, I then got a rather long lecture ( friendly I hasten to add) about the Indians conquering and taking away Nepalese land! It must have happened quite a while ago but the resentment is still there to see!
> These days the Gurkha regiments in the UK are open to all Nepalese who can pass the tests to get in, the Military here is also open to all Commonwealth citizens.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Indian army has Gurkha regiments. Indians have diverse facial structures and pigmentation. Not all Nepalis are gurkhas. About 3 clans are the tough Gurkhas- specially the Gurungs,
Nepalis living in North Bengal claim special rights- not those in the Kingdom of Nepal.
Gurkha kuhkri work is as good as they come.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Indian army has Gurkha regiments. Indians have diverse facial structures and pigmentation. Not all Nepalis are gurkhas. About 3 clans are the tough Gurkhas- specially the Gurungs,
> Nepalis living in North Bengal claim special rights- not those in the Kingdom of Nepal.
> Gurkha kuhkri work is as good as they come.



I have worked with the Gurkhas for quite a few years now and know them well, my point about the Gurkha regiments was that the British army has opened up the regiments to* all* Nepalese not just Gurkhas now. The Gurungs are known as bullies to the others and aren't popular, my friend is a Gaha. The Nepalese claim India invaded and annexed part of Nepal hence my comment. I know that Indians have various facial structures as have the Nepalese etc but few have such pronounced Chniese features as this boxer.


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I have worked with the Gurkhas for quite a few years now and know them well, my point about the Gurkha regiments was that the British army has opened up the regiments to* all* Nepalese not just Gurkhas now. The Gurungs are known as bullies to the others and aren't popular, my friend is a Gaha. The Nepalese claim India invaded and annexed part of Nepal hence my comment. I know that Indians have various facial structures as have the Nepalese etc but few have such pronounced Chniese features as this boxer.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have had two Gurungs to teach me kukhri usage. My school drill master (an Anglo-Indian)headed a police battalion with lots of Gurkhas in it. He also was lighthevy boxing champion of India. His duties prevented him from going to the Olympics.The Brits drew up the Indian-Nepalese  map,


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I have had two Gurungs to teach me kukhri usage. My school drill master (an Anglo-Indian)headed a police battalion with lots of Gurkhas in it. He also was lighthevy boxing champion of India. His duties prevented him from going to the Olympics.The Brits drew up the Indian-Nepalese  map,



Well, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what was told me! I am very aware of the feelings of the various Gurkhas towards Gurungs here, I haven't had to deal with it directly but one is aware of what people think.
Where I am we have the Gurkha recruit training and many ex Gurkha Regiment soldiers live and work in the area, we have quite a large community.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 4, 2016)

Ah cool it. A kind of looking argument over old school.


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Well, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what was told me! I am very aware of the feelings of the various Gurkhas towards Gurungs here, I haven't had to deal with it directly but one is aware of what people think.
> Where I am we have the Gurkha recruit training and many ex Gurkha Regiment soldiers live and work in the area, we have quite a large community.


---------------------------------------------------

Good chatting with you.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> Good chatting with you.



It was more interesting than the Op at any rate lol. There's one think I should say about the Gurkhas here though before we stop...they must be the world's worst drivers! Honestly, they are amazingly bad at driving, makes life very interesting though lol.


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> It was more interesting than the Op at any rate lol. There's one think I should say about the Gurkhas here though before we stop...they must be the world's worst drivers! Honestly, they are amazingly bad at driving, makes life very interesting though lol.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

They don't teach driving in Nepal  !!!!!


----------

