# A school without rank belts: would you train there?



## Daniel Sullivan

A school without *rank* belts; not without belts; the dobok or gi, depending upon the style of uniform your school uses, is designed to be worn with a belt of some kind. 

I posted this here instead of in the TKD section, though it certainly could apply there as well; I thought that I would give the TKD section a breather for a bit before starting a discussion there about rank and belts.

All of the discussion about black belts, poom belts, and such over in the TKD section got me thinking: what if a school simply had *one* belt for everyone for the sole purpose of keeping the dobok in place? 

Or perhaps a sash? Suppose that the color was based on something that had some meaning to the school? Or was the color of the student's birth stone? Or suppose students wore belts based on what color they liked, and nothing more? But regardless, in this scenario, the belt's _color_ has *nothing* to do with the student's rank.

The question that came to mind from that is this: 

If a hapkido school (or any other school for that matter) has *only one belt color for dobok gathering only* and simply taught class, handing out certificates to students when they passed their tests, assuming that the training was decent and the location was within your means, would you train there?

Remember, in this scenario, you will *never* get a black belt, though if you pass your tests and meet all of the requirements, you _will_ receive a dan certificate.

*An alternative scenario:* 
Students are white belt until first dan and then they are black belt. That means two to four years in a white belt. Or another single color; it does not matter, the point being that there will be *no* color change during the keub/kyu ranks.  

In this scenario, you will not have any visible indicator of your keub rank and will not have a change in belt color until you earn your first dan.  Would you still train there?

Thoughts? 
Daniel


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## dancingalone

Sure I would train there.  In fact, I would prefer such a rank arrangement as it puts its focus on just training and learning, as it should should.

In my city, there's a koryu jujutsu school.  They don't award belts at all, and I'm not certain if they even give out menkyo certificates.  Everyone wears a gi and hakama for standard practice.  The belt underneath the hakama is the standard free white or unbleached belt that came with the gi, and this is true for the instructors too.

One of the instructors originally came from an aikido background, so I don't know how authentic their lineage is, but I like the no-rank aspect of their school, and their martial arts is solid.


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## Daniel Sullivan

In kendo, we do not wear our rank, as the uniform is like an aikido uniform: hakama and keikogi, and does not lend itself to the thin obi typically seen in judo, karate, taekwondo and hapkido.

The only time that I have personally seen an obi worn under the hakama is when it is the appropriate thick obi.  

The only time that I have ever seen the thin obi worn with a hakama is either with the kekogi worn outside and the belt tied around it (as with a karate gi) or in Cary Nemeroff's book, where the keikogi was worn inside and the belt was inside the back of the hakama, but tied on the outside in the front.  Aside from pictures in Nemeroff's book, I have *never* seen this.

Daniel


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## KELLYG

Yes. If my school suddenly decided no belt or single belt color I would still train there.   I don't mind the belt system it helps, especially in a large school, to determine the material that is to be worked on and whom is to work with whom. Other than that no big deal!


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## sfs982000

I would prefer to train in an environment like that.  When I was stationed in Korea and studied Do Hop Sool they actually started everyone off with a plain black belt.  As you progressed you didn't get stripes on the belt you were promoted based on your skill.  Once you reached 1st Dan they presented you with an embroidered black belt.  I thought it was a little weird at first, but after awhile it kind of made perfect sense.  I mean if all you're after is a belt then you can go online and order one.


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## Brian R. VanCise

It would not matter at all to me!  What I would most certainly be looking for is the quality of instruction and the level of competency from all of the practitioner's!


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## Xue Sheng

I train/trained TCMA and a non-traditional CMA and there are/were no belts or ranks


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## Rich Parsons

I have trained in Balintawak, and my instructor did not give ranks nor belts nor certificates. He did say I could teach. I do teach new students and give refresher classes to some of the other students that trained my Manong Ted as well. 

In Balintawak, I plan on no ranking system. If I think you are good enough I will tell you that you can teach others. 

Who am I to decide? No one. Do you have to trust me? Yes. 

If I choose to train in another system and it had no ranking I would have no problems with it. I start at the beginning with everyone I train with, no matter if I am the student or the teacher.


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## dbell

In a heart beat if the training looked good and the art solid.

I've often contemplated removing belts and "ranks" from my school and going to a full Menkyo based system...


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## seasoned

As an after thought, yes. I came up through the ranks with belts, but we all stood on our own merits and never fell back on that rank.


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## Sukerkin

There is no use of rank belts in MJER or any other weapons based Japanese art I know of. 

You do get rank certification and I think that that has importance in being both a measure of competence and a measure of what your sensei thinks of your ability. Given the highly structured and formal nature of the _koryu_ arts, such certification is of use when moving between schools or dealing with decision-making moments when several schools come together for seminars et al.

I do think that for most martial arts, where class sizes tend to be much larger than something like iai, some visual cue as to 'rank' is of utility as it allows easy recognition of groups that are likely to be of equivalent skill level.  It only becomes a problem if people place too much emphasis on it - that does happen all too often when people compete against each other rather than focussing on the battle that really matters (the one within yourself to overcome your limitations).


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## l_uk3y

As far as training with no rank goes. I dont see there being any problems, and i think would suit beginners whom may be intimidated by a large group of high ranks. I would have no concern training there.

I do believe however that ranking systems are important to me, not as a method of comparing myself to others. But as a method of saying ok ive got a grasp on this set of techniques, I am now ready to challenge myself to the next. Not to mention i have this light in the very distant distance of a black belt or beyond to motivate my learning. (I am a goal orientated learner and like to plan ahead when doing most things)

I also see belts as helpful as it is a quick glance to determine a rough idea of a partners skills esp when it comes to safety on breakfalls and technique intensity. In defence to a no belt structure, if you are regular you will most likely have a high understanding of most of the classes level anyway.

At the end of the day. It still comes down to a quality teacher and the students being willing to learn. Belt or no Belt


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## Danny T

We took belts out of our adult programs almost 10 years ago. Still use them for the youth programs utilizing them for short term goal training. Our BJJ program is the only program that a gi is worn and everyone wears a white belt including the instructors. Why? Because it isn't about the belt, it is about the training and growth of the participants and we are all students of the martial arts. We have approx 80 adults and it seems to work well for us. We do have test requirements and present certificates but no belts. How do we know who is at what level? It is easy when you work with them 3 times a week. 

Danny


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## Ken Morgan

Sukerkin said:


> There is no use of rank belts in MJER or any other weapons based Japanese art I know of.
> 
> You do get rank certification and I think that that has importance in being both a measure of competence and a measure of what your sensei thinks of your ability. Given the highly structured and formal nature of the _koryu_ arts, such certification is of use when moving between schools or dealing with decision-making moments when several schools come together for seminars et al.


 
Agreed.

In Koryu, and seitei Jodo and iaido, you generally have no idea what rank people are. I've seen 2nds I thought were 4ths and the reverse, because they were that good or bad.

Yep, at seminars, when you get 100 plus people out there, you need to divide the class up by rank/years of practice. Simply because as you progress, everyone develops the same glitches, questions or concerns at the same time in their training. 

Also lets be honest a 4th will get one hell of a lot more information, and will benefit a great deal more from a 7th/8th teaching him, then a 1st will.


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## MrBigglesworth

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It would not matter at all to me!  What I would most certainly be looking for is the quality of instruction and the level of competency from all of the practitioner's!



+1


Personally, I hate getting new belts, especially when there's a different colour for every grade. I never get to wear the old one in before I get a new one.

OTOH, I understand it goes hand in hand with a grading system that helps to push students to gain that next level in their art. You don't strictly need the belt, but then you don't strictly need the grading to judge someone's level. But then some people can stagnate in their training if they don't have a grading to strive for.


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## Humble Student

I think it just depends on the teacher and the vibe I get from the school.
Meaning that I would do the home work on this person and see if he or she could back up there claim of things.

Then I would talk to people that may teach some thing close to what that teacher does. And see if they have a good rep. 

Then if that passes, I would talk to the students and get an over all view of what this person is all about.

And getting away with ranks to some degree might not be a total bad thing.
There are to many wanna-be's running around(American and other) saying they are grandmaster of this or that. And would end up teaching you things that could get you killed. All because you were suckered into thinking high rank means great skill.


But that is just my 2 cents


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## Bruno@MT

In Genbukan, belt color is white for newbies, green for any kyu grade, and black for any dan grade. I think it works well. We do have little black lines at the end of our belt indicating the kyu level, but that is more a matter of being able to order the buffet line at a taikai where people don't generally know most of the others.

So yes, I would train in a system without rank belts. I already do.

The benefit of having newbies wear white until after their first exam is that it makes it easier in large groups to keep an eye on the people who probably need some extra attention to make sure they know what they are doing. As soon as you have done your first exam, you're supposed to know how to behave, when to do what, and be able to perform the basic exercises on your own.


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## Aikikitty

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A school without *rank* belts; not without belts; the dobok or gi, depending upon the style of uniform your school uses, is designed to be worn with a belt of some kind.
> 
> *An alternative scenario:*
> Students are white belt until first dan and then they are black belt. That means two to four years in a white belt. Or another single color; it does not matter, the point being that there will be *no* color change during the keub/kyu ranks.
> 
> In this scenario, you will not have any visible indicator of your keub rank and will not have a change in belt color until you earn your first dan. Would you still train there?
> 
> Thoughts?
> Daniel


 
Sure--Actually, that's exactly how my Aikido school and many other Aikido dojo's (not all) are run. A student wears a white belt until they hit shodan then they wear a black belt. The hakama is optional for my class. Students will get the certificates for rank, but not a new belt. In my case, I wore a white belt for 8 1/2 years and I was okay with that.

Robyn


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## Wey

I would love to train in a system like that. I think belt's imply too much arrogance, people think that just because they are a higher rank they are more skilled or better at everything than those under them. If everyone is the same belt level, when they train you should be able to see the difference in ability, discipline, balance, etc. Also, I think that students would be more concerned with learning rather than simply memorizing the kata for the next belt. Plus, it might be interesting to tell people I was a white belt for 5+ years.


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## TKDHomeSchooler

I would, if the instructors were good and the school was a good one.  IIRC when TKD started the students all started with white belts and they became black form dirt, sweat, and tears of training hard and that is how you knew someone was an experienced student.

I know in America many probably won't go to a school like that, we typically need the success steps of each belt to reassure us of our progress.


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## celtic_crippler

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A school without *rank* belts; not without belts; the dobok or gi, depending upon the style of uniform your school uses, is designed to be worn with a belt of some kind.
> 
> I posted this here instead of in the TKD section, though it certainly could apply there as well; I thought that I would give the TKD section a breather for a bit before starting a discussion there about rank and belts.
> 
> All of the discussion about black belts, poom belts, and such over in the TKD section got me thinking: what if a school simply had *one* belt for everyone for the sole purpose of keeping the dobok in place?
> 
> Or perhaps a sash? Suppose that the color was based on something that had some meaning to the school? Or was the color of the student's birth stone? Or suppose students wore belts based on what color they liked, and nothing more? But regardless, in this scenario, the belt's _color_ has *nothing* to do with the student's rank.
> 
> The question that came to mind from that is this:
> 
> If a hapkido school (or any other school for that matter) has *only one belt color for dobok gathering only* and simply taught class, handing out certificates to students when they passed their tests, assuming that the training was decent and the location was within your means, would you train there?
> 
> Remember, in this scenario, you will *never* get a black belt, though if you pass your tests and meet all of the requirements, you _will_ receive a dan certificate.
> 
> *An alternative scenario:*
> Students are white belt until first dan and then they are black belt. That means two to four years in a white belt. Or another single color; it does not matter, the point being that there will be *no* color change during the keub/kyu ranks.
> 
> In this scenario, you will not have any visible indicator of your keub rank and will not have a change in belt color until you earn your first dan. Would you still train there?
> 
> Thoughts?
> Daniel


 
I stopped being concerned with rank when I reached adulthood. 

In the end, it's about what you know. The knowledge and skill you develop through training can't be taken away from you and is what will serve you best. 

A piece of cloth wrapped around your waist does nothing more than keep your pants up and/or your gi closed. It's not going to develop a life of it's own and come to your rescue nor will it magically bestow upon you any great powers. 

...so yeah, I would.


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## dbell

TKDHomeSchooler said:


> I would, if the instructors were good and the school was a good one.  IIRC when TKD started the students all started with white belts and they became black form dirt, sweat, and tears of training hard and that is how you knew someone was an experienced student.



Actually this is not so...  If you were/are caught with a dirty belt (at that level of dirtiness) in Korea, the GM got/gets VERY angry with you as I understand it, and experienced it when I lived in Korea.  More so in Japan, were the belting system began, in which a black obi was given to those that Kano-Sensei felt were ready to teach.  The bit about turning your belt black by sweat and training hard is just a quip created by foreigners...


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## Humble Student

I stopped being concerned with rank when I reached adulthood -*celtic_crippler* 

Me too


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## ralphmcpherson

In very large clubs such as mine a belt system can have some advantages. When we have advanced classes , club training camps , inter club comps etc and there are literally hundreds of new faces it is handy to know what rank others are as it is strongly encouraged that we ask for advice , information etc from our seniors and with everyone in belts it makes it easier to identify who is who. Also , at these club events we line up in order of rank and if no one had belts on that would be very hard to arrange with hundreds of students present. We line up in order of rank so that (in theory) the person in front is a higher rank and you can watch them as a guide while training.


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## Miles

If the training is solid, I would train there w/o a problem.


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## FearlessFreep

Our school doesn't use rank belts for adults and the material is excellent


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## Daniel Sullivan

I have been reading the responses and I appreciate them!

Daniel


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## Wey

Do you plan to employ such a system, Mr. Sullivan?


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## Ozowen

My first TKD school ran that way. I later trained in another one of similar appproach.
You knew you were going up cos you were being tasught the next Hyung and associated techniques.
There were also no charges.
We did wear belts and uniforms though.
I loved it as it was all about the art not the grading.

I have had issues with gradings ever since though.


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## yorkshirelad

I used to train at an Aikido dojo in England where nobody wore their rank. Most people just wore a hakama with no obi. Some people wore a white belt just to keep their gi from opening, but i didn't like the knot under my hakama, it felt uncomfortable.
In '93 (I think). Most of the dojo members went to a Fumio Toyoda seminar in the South. We were told the only yudnsha should wear a hakama, so i just wore a white belt. One of the Toyoda dechi came over and told me that he was amazed at the skill I had and that i should be able to train with the yudansha in the seminar afterwards. I did'nt want to tell him that even though I was a white belt, I had been training for a number of years.
Later, after the seminar, an Aikido teacher, who's famous in Dublin Aikido circles was in a conversation with Toyoda Sensei. Toyoda noticed that he didn't wear a belt with his Hakama. Toyoda asked him what rank he was and the answer was. "I've never been ranked". Now this instructor is a great teacher and when i was in Dublin in the late '90s, he had a large following.
Toyoda was offended, or seemed to be. "Why not wear a white belt?" he chided, "Why not wear a white Hakama?", refering to O'Sensei's and Doshu's use of a white belt and Hakama. I believe that to Toyoda, this instructor was impertinant for ignoring the rank system, like this instructor believed himself above it or something.
I don't believe rank is that important to learning, but if you're in a system that has traditionally had a rank system, I think it has it's place as a means to roughly gauge the knowledge level of the participants.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Wey said:


> Do you plan to employ such a system, Mr. Sullivan?


No.  If I were creating a new system, yes.  But seeing as how I do not consider myself qualified to do so, and considering that my background is in arts that all have either had belts since their inception or have used them since before the forties, I think that eliminating them entirely is unnecessary, as is eliminating all but white and black.

If I am teaching hapkido or TKD and not using belts, it would just seem plain weird to most people, including serious practitioners.  If the system traditionally has them, they should be retained.  I do not, however, intend to have more than six colored belts, including black (white, yellow, green, blue, red, black).  Every keup grade does not need a new piece of colored cloth.  Given that I do reasonably well at my day job and have benefits there, it is unlikely that I will ever have a student count that would necessitate that many belts.

I do not, however, view belts and rank as particularly important in the grand scheme of things.  These are just markers and teaching tools.  If they grow mystic qualities or are used to enforce some kind of dojang pecking order, then their purpose has been lost in the shuffle.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I do not, however, intend to have more than six colored belts, including black (white, yellow, green, blue, red, black)


As a follow up to this, alternatively, I would use white, green, blue, red, and either red/black or add some flourish to the existing red belt (iron on star or tip stripe, though no electrical tape) for dan-bo, and then black.  

I am not even sure that dan-bo needs a separate belt.  All a dan-bo is, and someone correct me if I am wrong, is a student who has learned the full keup grade curriculum but has not yet tested for first dan, usually remaining in the rank for several months before the first dan test.

Five belts is enough and six is certainly within reason.

Daniel


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## terryl965

You know Daniel I have thought about this thread and here is my true take on it, I would if I respected the instructor.. if they instructor himself was not wearing a belt or having any student call him Master or the grand poobaa of everything and lastly if the fee's was small enough to allow me the good fortune of buying some beer twice a week and drinking after these practices.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I'd be okay with the grand poobah thing if we all got to wear those horned water buffalo hats while training.

I do think that if the class is wearing street clothes to train in, the colored belts would look a bit silly.  But if the school was billing itself as a hapkido school, or a school of some other system that traditionally has belts associated with it, such as Taekwondo or Shotokan, then I do think that they should either maintain some kind of belt, even if only white and black, and wear the appropriate uniform, or should make a big point out of explaining why training in street clothes is more practical with regards to learning SD.

One of the things that I think many people, both consumers and serious practitioners alike, appreciate is a disciplined group of people training in uniform doboks (or gis, or whatever you call your uniform).  None of that has any bearing on the quality of training, though.

Daniel


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## FearlessFreep

AT our school, the kids where belts and tips and such.  Some adults participate with their children in the 'kids' classes.  However, in the adult classes, we do wear doboks but don't wear belts.  It used to be that belts were only used to know what curriculum you were covering at a time. For example, if you had a green belt then you knew what techniques you were studying and would be tested on.  The school switched to a block system which had no belts at all, but we've gotten away from that and are going back to belts for adults, although adults still don't wear belts in class.  Note: The instructor is a 6th Dan  and he wears his full uniform for the kids classes but then takes it off for the adult class.


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## Tyrant171

I would train at a school with no rank belts. However, I premise that on the assumption that the quality of instruction would be worthwhile.

Actually, from a beginner's standpoint, it might be less confusing. So far, I've seen that rank belts definitely do not guarantee skill. When you're unsure of almost everything as a beginner and tend to leach onto higher belt students for direction, only to find that the blue belt you've been learning from does most things wrong, it's pretty disconcerting. Having to judge for yourself who seems competent and who doesn't and then ask for help doesn't seem like such a bad thing.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Tyrant171 said:


> I would train at a school with no rank belts. However, I premise that on the assumption that the quality of instruction would be worthwhile.


  That is the case both with or without belts.  If the quality of instruction is not there, removal of belts will not help.  Nor will adding more, though a lot of school owners sure seem to think that it does.



Tyrant171 said:


> Actually, from a beginner's standpoint, it might be less confusing. So far, I've seen that rank belts definitely do not guarantee skill. *When you're unsure of almost everything as a beginner and tend to leach onto higher belt students for direction, only to find that the blue belt you've been learning from does most things wrong, it's pretty disconcerting.* Having to judge for yourself who seems competent and who doesn't and then ask for help doesn't seem like such a bad thing.


Totally agree, and I have had that experience.

Daniel


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## Manny

I don't like to many colored belts, there is a TKD dojang near my dojang who has 12 colored belts before the black belt, this is too much.

I would rather prefer not so many, say 4 colored belts before the black belt: white, yellow,green,blue and red and a year beetwen belts test, I eman one full year of white belt, then a year of yellow belt, and so on, yes I know the kids won't come to your dojang by dozens but I am talking about 18+ years old TKD practicioners.

I think 5 belts and 4-5 years of good training is good for achivieng black belt.

Manny


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If a hapkido school (or any other school for that matter) has *only one belt color for dobok gathering only* and simply taught class, handing out certificates to students when they passed their tests, assuming that the training was decent and the location was within your means, would you train there?




I trained at a school like this, two actually. It was Wing Chun classes led by different seniors from the same instructor. One senior received his 1st Dan at the Osan Moo Duk Kwan during the 60's when he was in the Air Force. There was no rank structure. The uniform was black kung fu pants, a t shirt of your choice (no school shirts) and athletic shoes. No certificates were given to students. I learned a lot of things, training principles which I still carry with me to this day. I recently found one of these instructors online and we are trying to schedule a dinner so we can catch up. We all studied different arts in addition to Wing Chun at the time, and so we all went in different directions.


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## WC_lun

If I get in a fight, my opponent isn''t gonna care one whit about what belt I wear around my waist or what certificate I hang on my wall.  Why should I?


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## Daniel Sullivan

WC_lun said:


> If I get in a fight, my opponent isn''t gonna care one whit about what belt I wear around my waist or what certificate I hang on my wall.


Absolutely agree!  In a violent encounter, your opponent will not care.  

But belts and rank really don't have anything to do violent encounters.  



WC_lun said:


> Why should I?


You may not.  I certainly don't.  

The point of the thread is not whether or not one cares about what belt is around their waist but whether or not one would train in an art that traditionally uses belts and the kyu/dan system at a school that eschews their use.

A hapkido school that eschews the kyu/dan system and associated belts would be unusual.  Not wrong, but unusual.  

If you went to a school to learn an art that tradtionally uses belts (such as hapkido, judo, Shotokan, or taekwondo) would you consider it out of place or a red flag?

Daniel


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The point of the thread is not whether or not one cares about what belt is around their waist but whether or not one would train in an art that traditionally uses belts and the kyu/dan system at a school that eschews their use. A hapkido school that eschews the kyu/dan system and associated belts would be unusual.  Not wrong, but unusual.  If you went to a school to learn an art that tradtionally uses belts (such as hapkido, judo, Shotokan, or taekwondo) would you consider it out of place or a red flag?




I was looking at some old photo albums last night and saw some pictures from my first Hapkido school. I completely forgot about the fact that the school evolved to the point where no one in class wore belts. The only person wearing a belt in some of the photos was the head instructor. I forget how that came about, the not wearing belts thing. We wore cross over uniforms and the only thing that held the uniform in place was the small ties. I didn't think it was weird at the time but now looking back, visitors from other schools must have thought so. You could still tell the black belts from the color belts because the black belt uniforms had black Moo Duk Kwan style trim on it.


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## Kong Soo Do

Daniel,

One of the more successful schools in our area is an Aikido school. They have only two belts; white and black. You wear white until you get black which is quite a few years.

When I had my commercial school, we hardly ever wore belts. We had tests and certificates for levels completed, but the belt and uniform just wasn't something of interest to the type of students I taught (mainly L.E., Corrections and off duty military).

So to answer your question, yes, I would not hesitate to train in a school that didnt' have belts. To be honest, uniforms and belts are a throw back to the days when they actually wore that type of clothing on a somewhat normal basis for sport competitions. And they really didn't come in until Funakoshi adopted them (with Kano Jigoro's permission) circa 1924 (as a requirement for Japanese official acceptance). Before that they wore a gi that looked more like a diaper because of the climate.

I remember the story when I first began training of George Mattson (first Uechi Ryu BB in America) and his trips to Okinawa. He trained on the deck with men either wearing no belts or white belts, yet their Karate was incredibly powerful and focused. When he asked, he found out they were actually Godan level. They just never got around to getting the belt and figured it wouldn't help their Karate if they did.

And shouldn't it be about the training rather than the cloth?


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## jthomas1600

I go to a school like the one Manny mentioned. We have 12 belts including white before you reach black. I also train a little in BJJ which only has a handful of belts and students fully expect to train 1-2 years for each belt. What I see in the TKD school where I train with the 12 belts is students are really focused on the next belt and some check list they have to complete to get that belt...it's like a race to black belt. What I see in the BJJ schools is the next belt is secondary and the refining of techniques is the focus. I love TKD, but I prefer the later approach to martial arts.


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## kubachi

Oh man, I'd love this. I get so fed up with the hype put on belt color and rank and that's the VERY reason for these McDojo's popping up on every corner. I'm absolutely not joking when I say that on Mason Rd. in Katy, Texas there are a total of 12 TKD places down that 5 mile rd. You can be at any stoplight and see one on either side of the road. It's ridiculous. One of the reasons I chose the Hapkido dojang I did, from ALL of Houston, was because it's off the beaten path, hidden in the corner of small strip mall and it's only large enough for the class area and a small viewing area for parents to sit and watch their kids. There's an office, an equipment room and a small bathroom in the back, too. And it smells like my high school gym. There are pictures all over the walls in the front area of the two GMs in their younger years in Korea when they were amazing sights to behold. The pictures are all crooked and faded. I seriously love it and I believe I'm getting a good, raw education there. Of course, there are other locations by these same GM's with bright, neon lit facades and fancy schmancy surroundings where they hold demos and what-not. I've never been to them though. I'll take my pressure-point bruises from the boys at the old school. 

I'm 41 years old, so belt color is meaningless to me and since I have no goal of showing off my skill unless I'm attacked, I don't care about belt color either. Well, now wait a minute, I DO want to be handed a black belt when I've earned it, but wearing it means nothing to me. I think it's a better idea for people to NOT know you could break several of their bones before you break a sweat. In fact, I kept everyone at work and in my family from knowing anything about my Hapkido life until the bruises that I forgot were there caused them to ask what happened. And once I explained, I swear, each person would say, "But is that normal??" Ahhh, such amusement. 

Younger students, in my opinion, should be encouraged to reach the next belt level so they have that sort of "crawl, step, walk" goal within each level but the instructors should definitely not make it the priority mindset. Mastering the technique, that's the key. I've been reading about the pay-for-your-next-belt problem in our country and I don't understand why someone who hasn't earned a black belt would want one. I mean, eventually it'll be proven that you lack the skill. I like how my instructor tells us that there is no hurry, don't worry about the next belt, worry about practice, worry about mastering the details. He says, "If you want it, you'll get it. If you don't want it, forget it." I repeat it to myself as needed when the idea of eating ice cream out of the container with a spoon while watching 2 hours of Frasier sounds better than practicing. 

So basically, yes. I'd train there.


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## Buka

Being a new guy around here I hadn't seen this thread before.
If the place offered good instruction, yes, I'd be there in a heartbeat. But I already have rank and can't say what I would have done when I was young.

One of my former students from the eighties is now one of my instructors. He runs a fitness/fighting gym with excellent training. I like going there. They have no belts of any kind.


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## Kong Soo Do

A school without rank belts: would you train there?

Yes, any serious practitioner would.


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## Blindside

My school (Kali) doesn't use any form of rank ID, I haven't had any complaints from the group.  Last night I was talking about how my instructor just got promoted and one of the students asked "this art has ranks?"  My group pretty much just uses divisions between student and instructor, so the first "rank" is the equivalent of "newbie instructor" about 3 years in of regular training.


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## Kong Soo Do

Of all the years I owned a school, I don't ever remember anyone actually asking me my rank.  We seldom wore belts or uniforms and the times that I did was a simple plain BB.  

When I transitioned to small group and personal instruction we never wore uniforms or belts at all.  And no one asked my rank then either.  I suppose they figured I was the instructor since I was the one teaching


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## Daniel Sullivan

In the kendo class that I teach, we do not use rank belts.  The uniforms don't accomodate them.  I inherited a few students from a gumdo school and I have some that go to the geomdo classes that I teach for another school who came in to try the class wearing their gumdo doboks with belts, but once they've been in class for a bit, I require them to wear a keikogi and hakama.

After practicing and teaching kendo for several years, teaching without using belts for rank seems simplistic.  I do have private hapkido students and I use a minimal number of belts for them: white, yellow, green, blue, red, red/black, and black (each belt before black covers two geubs and the red/black is dan-bo).  I primarilly use the belts because it is traditional for hapkido to have them.  Otherwise, we'd just train (and sometimes do) in loose fitting street clothes.  

Daniel


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## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I primarilly use the belts because it is traditional for hapkido to have them. Otherwise, we'd just train (and sometimes do) in loose fitting street clothes.
> Daniel



While I have nothing against uniforms and belts, I really feel that it is a very good idea to wear 'street clothes' as much as possible during training. Particularly if the class is focused primarily on self-defense. Some things can be very easy to do when we're warmed up, stretched out and wearing loose fitting clothing, however, when we're not so advantaged, it is good to know what can and cannot be done in certain clothing. My partner years ago got into an altercation with an EDP. My partner was a very large individual with a BB'ers physiqe and fairly skilled in BJJ. But the jacket he was wearing limited his range of motion when the altercation went to the ground. Same could be said for wearing a dress, jeans, shorts etc. Just something for the student to experience occassionally should they find themselves in an altercation while similarly clothed.


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## dortiz

Its veering off topic but I really wanted to agree with Kong Soo Do on the issue of training in street clothes. Even simple kicks in shoes versus barefoot becomes important. Folks think no worries since shoes hurt more but forget about restricted movement. You must train as you will fight!
Also grabbing a training uniform versus shirt or jacket and jeans is very different.
YOU WILL NEVER FIGHT SOMEONE IN A DOBOK (better not!)
With this being true here is where I see the belts and uniform issue come up most. Personally I like order and traditional MAs but I also like transferring skills to practical applications. Usually when I see groups with no belts and I mean usually not always, its folks who are stripping skills from arts. Taking only what they think is the important part and many times not knowing what they have left out. That I dont like.


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## mastercole

dortiz said:


> Its veering off topic but I really wanted to agree with Kong Soo Do on the issue of training in street clothes. Even simple kicks in shoes versus barefoot becomes important. Folks think no worries since shoes hurt more but forget about restricted movement. You must train as you will fight!
> Also grabbing a training uniform versus shirt or jacket and jeans is very different.
> YOU WILL NEVER FIGHT SOMEONE IN A DOBOK (better not!)
> With this being true here is where I see the belts and uniform issue come up most. Personally I like order and traditional MAs but I also like transferring skills to practical applications. Usually when I see groups with no belts and I mean usually not always, its folks who are stripping skills from arts. Taking only what they think is the important part and many times not knowing what they have left out. That I dont like.



I have fought in both my regular clothes and my dobok, I did not notice or think about my clothes and it did not make a difference on way or the other.

As for no belts in martial arts schools, it depends on what it was. If it was a Taekwondo school and had no ranks, I would not recommend anyone to train there, regardless of how great the training was. Not JUST because there was no ranks, but because having no ranks to me, would be a sign that most everything else that makes Taekwondo valuable would also be missing. 

If it was a generic or MMA type school, well, I probably would not recommend that either. I would try to guide them to boxing or wrestling, or kayaking, or maybe my favorite, Bocce Ball. However, if a person had no other choices, I would tell them to go hang around for a while and take a series of trial classes and see what they thought and go from there.


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## Daniel Sullivan

mastercole said:


> As for no belts in martial arts schools, it depends on what it was. If it was a Taekwondo school and had no ranks, I would not recommend anyone to train there, regardless of how great the training was. Not JUST because there was no ranks, but because having no ranks to me, would be a sign that most everything else that makes Taekwondo valuable would also be missing.


Just a note of clarification; the OP is specifically about either no rank *belts*, not no ranks.  Or alternatively, a white belt for geub/kyu grades and a black belt for dan grades.  

Though I do agree that in a taekwondo school, I would definitely find it weird to not see belts and I can honestly not think of any good reason not to wear a dobok in class.  If you want to practice kicks and such in street clothes and wearing shoes, that is best done outside of class (in my opinion). 

Daniel


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## Kong Soo Do

Kong Soo Do said:


> A school without rank belts: would you train there?
> 
> Yes, any serious practitioner would.



I will once again relay the experience of George Mattson Sensei (first American Uechi Ryu BB) while training at the Uechi Ryu Dojo in Okinawa.  He trained along side several 'whit belts' that clearly were extremely powerful Karateka.  It turned out that they were Godan (5th Dan) and above.  They wore a white belt simply to keep the top closed and just never got around to buying a black belt.  They didn't figure it would improve their Karate.  

With respect intended, having or wearing a belt (or having or wearing a specific rank) has absolutely no bearing on training whether it be a Karate or a Taekwondo school...or at least it shouldn't.  Prior to 1924 it didn't exist in Karate.  One was either a student or a Sensei and it worked out fine.  The Dan/Kyu system wasn't implemented until the Japanese made it one of the requirements placed upon Funakoshi Sensei.  The same for the uniform.  Prior to 1924 there were no standard uniforms and Okinawans often wore only something akin to a diaper in training due to the hot weather.  Reasons for at least occassionally not wearing the uniform have been detailed in this and other threads.  And they are valid reasons and the uniform adds nothing to the training except uniformity of apparel.   Again, with respect intended towards all parties, if you need a uniform and a belt (or rank) to train...you're training for the wrong reasons.    You should be training for the training itself, the rest is window dressing.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Another clarification: In this thread, I am referring to formal schools.  A bunch of guys and gals training in the park or in the instructor's back yard is not what I am talking about, though when my private HKD students come to my home, I do require them to wear doboks.

Regarding taekwondo, there really hasn't been a point in time that it _hasn't _had belts or a uniform of some kind.  Just as I would find a koryu kenjutsu dojo where nobody wore a hakama to be a glaring red flag, I would find a taekwondo dojang with no dobok to be a glaring red flag.  Not because the dobok and accompanying belt makes the school better, but because taekwondo is not a dedicated RBSD system and it traditionally has doboks and belts.  When I see football teams practicing as a team, they are wearing attire appropriate to the sport.  Taekwondo is the national sport of Korea, so in a *formal school*, I expect to see the appropriate attire.


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## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Another clarification: In this thread, I am referring to formal schools.  A bunch of guys and gals training in the park or in the instructor's back yard is not what I am talking about, though when my private HKD students come to my home, I do require them to wear doboks.



Ah, but let us take a closer look at this Daniel.  The location that the training is taking place is of little matter, rather it is the training itself that takes place.  A bunch of guys and gals screwing around in a half-hearted manner is poor training, be it at the park, in a backyard or in a building with four walls.  The reverse side is that hard-core, serious training is just that, regardless of where the training takes place.  Your example of privite HKD instruction at your home is a good example.  Having talked with you on a number of topics over the last year, I conclude you to be a serious HKD (and martial arts in general) practitioner.  I would also conclude you to be a serious instructor based upon those conversations.  Therefore, would the training you provide your student be any less if you both were wearing something other than a traditional dobok?  Keep in mind that I have nothing against traditional attire, and being formal can have its place.  But if the training is geared towards SD, then it is a benefit to the student to at least occassionally wear something 'normal' such as jeans, a heavy jacket, a T-shirt, shoes etc to see how range-of-motion can and will affect certain aspects of the training.  



> Regarding taekwondo, there really hasn't been a point in time that it _hasn't _had belts or a uniform of some kind.



I undersand your point, and agree.  But that is more because TKD came about as an independent art after 1924 when Karate moved towards a traditional uniform.  By the time of TKD, it was the norm.  This doesn't mean that a quality TKD program requires a traditional uniform, just that it is now the expected norm.  It has no relation with the actual quality of the training though.  

Uniforms and belts are nice and comfortable.  I have nothing against them.  I just don't usually wear them.  Although, as I understand it, they're going to be making me wear one at our annual IKSDA seminar since I'm one of the primary instructors.  That is if I can find my black belt :uhyeah:


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## dortiz

"I have fought in both my regular clothes and my dobok, I did not notice or think about my clothes and it did not make a difference on way or the other."

And the techniques you would want to have in your arsenal? Would you not want to make sure you tried them on different situations regarding jacket versus shirt etc? Granted I am talking HKD because its a HKD thread. I get that a punch is a punch. Although I will argue that a kicker better practice in jeans and learn the limitation or there will also be a big surprise. Discounting the person who bought the Chuck Norris Stretchy jeans in the 70s : )


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## dortiz

Back to OP. 
I dont think it makes sense to wear a traditional uniform and not have belts. Worst case I could see the old school white Belt............then you get a black belt.
But aside from the fees  ; )
I also think the grading system was born of a need to put folks in classification based on progression.
So long answer short, In a traditional school I would want belts but be open to them being organized as the teacher saw fit to measure the curriculum.


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## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just a note of clarification; the OP is specifically about either no rank *belts*, not no ranks.  Or alternatively, a white belt for geub/kyu grades and a black belt for dan grades.
> 
> Though I do agree that in a taekwondo school, I would definitely find it weird to not see belts and I can honestly not think of any good reason not to wear a dobok in class.  If you want to practice kicks and such in street clothes and wearing shoes, that is best done outside of class (in my opinion).
> 
> Daniel



I think get it. In my mind a belt is just symbolic of rank. In regular class, students regularly wear their belt and uniform.  Excepting is the summer, when a t-shirt, dobok pants and belt is OK.  During off hours invitation only training, if they wear no belt, that is fine.  Personally me, I never wear a belt or v-neck dobok in my own school. I only wear them when I'm training Taekwondo in Korea.


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## mastercole

dortiz said:


> "I have fought in both my regular clothes and my dobok, I did not notice or think about my clothes and it did not make a difference on way or the other."
> 
> And the techniques you would want to have in your arsenal? Would you not want to make sure you tried them on different situations regarding jacket versus shirt etc? Granted I am talking HKD because its a HKD thread. I get that a punch is a punch. Although I will argue that a kicker better practice in jeans and learn the limitation or there will also be a big surprise. Discounting the person who bought the Chuck Norris Stretchy jeans in the 70s : )



Oh, that is right, Hapkido.  My Hapkido techniques would be limited to kick, punch, bite, blind, stab or shoot, escape, etc. which ever chance best presented itself.  I always wear loose comfortable and light clothes, never anything tight or heavy, so it's a moot point.


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## dortiz

"bite, blind, stab or shoot, escape, etc."

In my book those are most excellent techniques Sir  : )


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## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> I always wear loose comfortable and light clothes, never anything tight or heavy, so it's a moot point.



With respect, it isn't a moot point.  Do you ever wear a suit?  A heavy jacket in the winter?  How about your students?  Do they ever wear a suit, dress, heavy jacket in the winter?  Many things need to be seriously and thoughtfully considered when teaching SD in any martial art.



> My Hapkido techniques would be limited to kick, punch, bite, blind, stab or shoot, escape, etc.



Again, with respect, do you even know Hapkido?  While MSK Kong Soo Do does indeed teach combat shooting, I haven't seen an Hapkido schools doing so.  And while _kick, punch, bite, blind, stab_ can be effective in some circumstances, you've eliminated a myriad of Hapkido techniques that are used for less-than-lethal altercations.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> I have fought in both my regular clothes and my dobok, I did not notice or think about my clothes and it did not make a difference on way or the other.



Me too. I think training in street clothes is an overrated concern. 




mastercole said:


> As for no belts in martial arts schools, it depends on what it was. If it was a Taekwondo school and had no ranks, I would not recommend anyone to train there, regardless of how great the training was. Not JUST because there was no ranks, but because having no ranks to me, would be a sign that most everything else that makes Taekwondo valuable would also be missing.



I have never seen nor have I been a part of a taekwondo or hapkido dojang that did not have a rank structure. I went to a hapkido school where the students stopped wearing rank belts for some reason, but still everyone knew everyone's rank and still followed the protocols that are associated with rank and seniority.


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just a note of clarification; the OP is specifically about either no rank *belts*, not no ranks.  Or alternatively, a white belt for geub/kyu grades and a black belt for dan grades.



As far I am concerned you either are or are not a poom or dan holder. I don't really concentrate all that hard on the infinite minute differences between the different guep levels.


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## puunui

dortiz said:


> Although I will argue that a kicker better practice in jeans and learn the limitation or there will also be a big surprise. Discounting the person who bought the Chuck Norris Stretchy jeans in the 70s : )




I don't wear jeans. I wear loose comfortable clothing in general. Right now I am wearing shorts and a t shirt.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> Oh, that is right, Hapkido.  My Hapkido techniques would be limited to kick, punch, bite, blind, stab or shoot, escape, etc. which ever chance best presented itself.



A lot of people don't realize that you have hapkido dan rank. 




mastercole said:


> I always wear loose comfortable and light clothes, never anything tight or heavy, so it's a moot point.



Why would anyone wear anything else? The closest I come to wearing uncomfortable clothes is suits, but even those are comfortable. Every time I visit korea I get two custom made suits, which fit perfectly and therefore are extremely comfortable.


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## mastercole

puunui said:


> A lot of people don't realize that you have hapkido dan rank.



My evil plan is to blend the various types of Korean martial arts and create my own style. I have come up with several names, but last night while at a hankuk-sik-dang, enjoying pap, panchan and podicha the name of this, the world's most effective self-defense, no sport based moo-do came to me, in the form of a deuk-paeki  ~~~~ bibimpap!  But I don't want sport, so no "do".

So keeping with the variety of Korean soup, I will have to choose from the following. It will be a sort of Kajukempo name thing.

Should it be "Bibimbap-sul"?  I like sul because it covers the general - soupyness - of the full blended style and denotes skill.  Maybe "Bibimbap-tang"?  I like tang because because of it's formal, traditional Confucius sound, and tang from old tangsoodo.  Or, "Bibimbap-kuk" because the style will be meaty, with substance, and because kuk comes from Kukkiwon.  And possibly, "Bibimbap-Jjigae" because it will be a thick, spice killing art! and I like that Jjigae sounds like hitting!


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Why would anyone wear anything else? The closest I come to wearing *uncomfortable* clothes is suits, but even those are comfortable. Every time I visit korea I get two custom made suits, which fit perfectly and therefore are extremely comfortable.
> 
> Me too. I think training in street clothes is an overrated concern.



I don't think the point is uncomfortable clothes, rather clothing that limits a persons range of motion.  I understand your in shorts and a T-shirt in Hawaii, I am as well in Florida.  But not everyone lives in a climate that allows shorts and a T-shirt in the winter.  I understand that not everyone teaches from the perspective of SD, but those that don't should understand the perspective of those that do as well as the scope of the suggestions made and not automatically discard them due to personality conflicts.  Professionals in the area of SD, whether it is a martial art or another type of SD system advocate, with verifiable justification, at least occasionally training in the clothing you are likely to be wearing if attacked outside the dojang.  

Some would do well to respect their seniors in this area, if not for their own sakes, for those that they may teach.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> Should it be "Bibimbap-sul"?  I like sul because it covers the general - soupyness - of the full blended style and denotes skill.  Maybe "Bibimbap-tang"?  I like tang because because of it's formal, traditional Confucius sound, and tang from old tangsoodo.  Or, "Bibimbap-kuk" because the style will be meaty, with substance, and because kuk comes from Kukkiwon.  And possibly, "Bibimbap-Jjigae" because it will be a thick, spice killing art! and I like that Jjigae sounds like hitting!



Are you planning on adding techniques or training on how to defend yourself wearing tight street clothes or slippery shoes? I know you live in northern ohio and are facing snow right now but that doesn't seem to stop you from wearing comfortable clothes.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Used to be that jeans were much more restrictive, but now, they seem to be cut differently and I find little practical difference with regards to mobility and flexibility.  Even my suits allow for kicking.  Only the jacket is more restrictive.


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I have never seen nor have I been a part of a taekwondo or hapkido dojang that did not have a rank structure.


Nor I, though eschewing rank is not within the scope of this thread; only the subject of belts for the purpose of displaying one's rank, whatever it may be.



puunui said:


> I went to a hapkido school where the students stopped wearing rank belts for some reason, but still everyone knew everyone's rank and still followed the protocols that are associated with rank and seniority.


This is what I was talking about.  We do not wear them in kendo either, but likewise, everyone knows who is who and who is senior to whom.


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## mastercole

puunui said:


> Are you planning on adding techniques or training on how to defend yourself wearing tight street clothes or slippery shoes? I know you live in northern ohio and are facing snow right now but that doesn't seem to stop you from wearing comfortable clothes.



Yes, it is very snowy and ice here. I was thinking to organize those techniques into 3 special kata; Kochujang Chodan, Eedan, and samjang (paste).  The idea is these kata have bunkai of how to counter attack an attackers - attack, while wearing super tight jeans, especially painfully tight in the crotch area forcing one to walk and stand in a wide, stable stance, and with slick bottom shoes and a huge Alaskan Esskimo Parka.  The bunkai has it roots in ancient Koreans use of kochujang hot pepper paste for soups and bibimbap (name of my style). The idea is to get the hot spices kochujang paste in their eyes, or even in warm weather, you attack the kochu with the kochujang.  Yeooooweee!


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## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I will once again relay the experience of George Mattson Sensei (first American Uechi Ryu BB) while training at the Uechi Ryu Dojo in Okinawa.  He trained along side several 'whit belts' that clearly were extremely powerful Karateka.  It turned out that they were Godan (5th Dan) and above.  They wore a white belt simply to keep the top closed and just never got around to buying a black belt.  They didn't figure it would improve their Karate.



Here is the actual quote from Mattson Sensei's book: "When I was studying on Okinawa in 1957 or 58, often I would be working out or sparring with obviously very strong, advanced students who wore white belts. Later my instructor informed me they had fifth degree black belt ratings. They just never got around to getting a black belt and they just didn't think wearing one would improve their workout. Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn with pride." 

You omitted the back end of the quote, which is the point Mattson Sensei is trying to make, that "Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of  working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a  ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to  me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn  with pride." In that regard, your paraphrase of the beginning of Mattson Sensei's quote from his 1974 book is misleading. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> With respect intended, having or wearing a belt (or having or wearing a specific rank) has absolutely no bearing on training whether it be a Karate or a Taekwondo school...or at least it shouldn't.  Prior to 1924 it didn't exist in Karate.  One was either a student or a Sensei and it worked out fine.  The Dan/Kyu system wasn't implemented until the Japanese made it one of the requirements placed upon Funakoshi Sensei.  The same for the uniform.  Prior to 1924 there were no standard uniforms and Okinawans often wore only something akin to a diaper in training due to the hot weather.



Incorrect. When Funakoshi Sensei went to Japan in 1922, he went as a 5th Dan. When he demonstrated in Japan he wore a white gi and black belt. There is a picture of him demonstrating techniques in the June 3, 1922 issue of the Nichinichi Shinbun newspaper, in which he and his partner are wearing white gi and black belts. And in his book, Toude Jutsu, published in 1922, Funakoshi Sensei is again wearing a white gi and black belt, demonstrating techniques. Funakoshi Sensei did award shodan to his first students in 1924, after about 18 months of training. Perhaps that is what you are thinking about.


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## mastercole

puunui said:


> Here is the actual quote from Mattson Sensei's book: "When I was studying on Okinawa in 1957 or 58, often I would be working out or sparring with obviously very strong, advanced students who wore white belts. Later my instructor informed me they had fifth degree black belt ratings. They just never got around to getting a black belt and they just didn't think wearing one would improve their workout. Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn with pride."
> 
> You omitted the back end of the quote, which is the point Mattson Sensei is trying to make, that "Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of  working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a  ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to  me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn  with pride." In that regard, your paraphrase of the beginning of Mattson Sensei's quote from his 1974 book is misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. When Funakoshi Sensei went to Japan in 1922, he went as a 5th Dan. When he demonstrated in Japan he wore a white gi and black belt. There is a picture of him demonstrating techniques in the June 3, 1922 issue of the Nichinichi Shinbun newspaper, in which he and his partner are wearing white gi and black belts. And in his book, Toude Jutsu, published in 1922, Funakoshi Sensei is again wearing a white gi and black belt, demonstrating techniques. Funakoshi Sensei did award shodan to his first students in 1924, after about 18 months of training. Perhaps that is what you are thinking about.



History looks a lot different when one takes a complete and accurate look at it


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## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Here is the actual quote from Mattson Sensei's book...



I've had the book for decades so I'm familiar with the quote, which is why I added it to the discussion.  And unfortunately in your haste to cut and paste a retort you've once again missed the point.  To properly train, one needs proper training.  A belt and uniform are not needed as is evident from what I quoted, martial history and common sense.  They are a modern addition that add nothing to the training itself.  It is unfortunate that some can't see beyond them however.  I see this as a lack of maturity in the arts. 

By the way, Mattson Sensei offers a factual statement and then follows it up with an opinion.  The factual part is that in Okinawa they would very often not wear uniforms or belts (there are photos in the book we've both referenced above).  The opinion that follows is that belts are always worn in today's training.  This is an incorrect opinion, not based upon fact.  I have trained in a modern Uechi Ryu dojo as it is technically equivalent to Pangainoon in skill sets and 3 of the 8 kata.  Frank Gorman Sensei is an 8th Dan in Uechi Ryu and most often did not train or teach in a full uniform or with a belt.  In fact, outside of photos, I've never seen Gorman Sensei in a full uniform or wearing his belt.  This translated to his students as well.  I would suggest that if your going to hunt around for a quote for a quick retort that you do a little more research into the art in question.  Or better yet, don't make a hasty retort like you're trying to score points.  Read what is offered by me and others and thoughtfully consider it even if you may not initially agree or if it differs from what you've done.  

For someone to say they wouldn't train in a TKD school, even if the training was great, because they didn't wear uniforms and belts is a demonstration of mixed priorities.  You both may want to thoughtfully consider rereading this thread in its entirety and learning from it.

As far as clothing, no one said anything about uncomfortable clothing except you and Al.  And once again, you've allowed the personality conflict you and Al have towards me to interfere with your ability to learn from someone who could teach you much in the area of SD.  This is a shame.

With respect intended.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as clothing, no one said anything about uncomfortable clothing except you and Al.  And once again, you've allowed the personality conflict you and Al have towards me to interfere with your ability to learn from someone who could teach you much in the area of SD.  This is a shame.


I don't know.  I would be hesitant to train at a taekwondo school that didn't utilize the traditional dobok and dde.  

It isn't that the attire isn't important, but that it is the appropriate attire for the environment.  Mastercole also explicitly said why; he felt that if they dropped the uniform that it signaled other potential problems, not that the uniform itself was a priority.  

It is kind of like going to a wedding or a funeral and wearing jeans and a tee-shirt.  The attire does not inherently alter the occasion, but it is the appropriate attire, and would raise questions about one's judgement, deserved or not.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I respect your opinion Daniel, even in disagreement.  Let me touch on a couple of points you brought up;



Daniel Sullivan said:


> It isn't that the attire isn't important, but that it is the appropriate attire for the environment.



It isn't appropriate for the environment out of necessity, but of what has come to be expected.  Referencing the book that both I and Glenn have quoted from, one can see Uechi Kannei Sensei (and senior students) in the short pants (akin to a type of adult diaper worn there because of the hot climate) on pages 10, 11, 12 and others.  We can see just the bottoms in more pages than I can list.  Most of the kata demonstrations by Uechi Kannei Sensei are in just the pants.  In fact, you only see him in full uniform and belt in a few photos throughout the entire book and those are photo op pictures and not training pictures.  Sanchin kata is never trained in full uniform, particularly when it is part of the promotional testing portion.  He was far more senior than anyone in the Korean arts, the same with all of Uechi Kanbun Senei's senior students.  This is how they trained on a regular basis.

GM Dunn, who originally received his first BB on Okinawa rarely wears a uniform and belt.  At our annual seminar coming up it is a running joke among those of us in the TAC if he'll be wearing one 

The bottom line is that it is a nicety, but by no means a necessity.



> Mastercole also explicitly said why; he felt that if they dropped the  uniform that it signaled other potential problems, not that the uniform  itself was a priority.



This is an opinion, not fact.  Not wearing a particular outfit in no way, shape or form indicates the level of the training.  As evident from my commentary on Uechi Ryu and the seniors in that art (and others to be sure), they rarely wore a full uniform and that philosophy was passed down to others that became seniors.  Rather than 'signaling other potential problems' as he surmises, it may signal a move that training is priority and uniforms and rank symbols aren't.  It may signal that one's skill is directly related to what they can do and teach rather than what is on their waist or what type of uniform (if any) is worn.

Not patting myself on the back (so it should not be taken as such please), when I had a commercial school I had students coming from the surrounding four counties to receive training with me.  I very rarely wore a uniform, the same with them.  We trained exactly as I have described in various threads such as my Self-defense Training Methodology.  These included high liability professionals as well as private citizens.  They were there for what I offered, not for what they could wear.  Now that I teach privately, I still don't wear a uniform and I have to actually turn down new students due to lack of time.  I offer to put them on a waiting list and they accept.  To me, and this is my own personal/professional opinion and no offense intended to anyone, that is proper training mind set.  If one needs a particular uniform and a particular belt to be able to train then they are there for entirely the wrong reason.  

Of all the people that I taught while not wearing a uniform...no one ever had to wonder who the 'Sensei' was in the school.  When a new student walked into the school, they never wondered who the Sensei was or the level of skill the other students had.  It was evident by watching them train.


----------



## cushingkungfu

Not sure about Belts, but Sashes are important.
  The color matters not, and My Sifu in fact did not use a ranking system for the first couple of years I was with him, we were all students and we knew our Si-Hing's and Si-Di's without the need for color on the belts.
  However, Like I said, the Sashes were important. Hung Gar (and many other arts) use a dynamic tension type breathing in training which puts a great deal of pressure on the intestines. The sash serves the purpose of holding your intestines in place during training.


----------



## Twin Fist

mastercole said:


> Oh, that is right, Hapkido.  My Hapkido techniques would be limited to kick, punch, bite, blind, stab or shoot, escape, etc. which ever chance best presented itself.  I always wear loose comfortable and light clothes, never anything tight or heavy, so it's a moot point.




dont be biting attackers if you dont know where they have been, thats nasty ....lol


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've had the book for decades so I'm familiar with the quote, which is why I added it to the discussion.



I've also had the book for decades, which is why I clarified Mattson Sensei's true point being made, which incidentally goes directly to the original topic at hand. See post #72 for clarification.




Kong Soo Do said:


> And unfortunately in your haste to cut and paste a retort you've once again missed the point.  To properly train, one needs proper training.  A belt and uniform are not needed as is evident from what I quoted, martial history and common sense.  They are a modern addition that add nothing to the training itself.  It is unfortunate that some can't see beyond them however.  I see this as a lack of maturity in the arts.



So are you saying that Master Uechi lacks maturity in the arts, because it was he who apparently told Mattson Sensei: "Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn with pride." 




Kong Soo Do said:


> By the way, Mattson Sensei offers a factual statement and then follows it up with an opinion.  The factual part is that in Okinawa they would very often not wear uniforms or belts (there are photos in the book we've both referenced above).  The opinion that follows is that belts are always worn in today's training.  This is an incorrect opinion, not based upon fact.



Incorrect. Mattson Sensei says that in the past 1957, 58, two students did not wear belts that reflected their rank but "Today,  however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of  working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a  ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to  me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn  with pride." 




Kong Soo Do said:


> I have trained in a modern Uechi Ryu dojo as it is technically equivalent to Pangainoon in skill sets and 3 of the 8 kata.  Frank Gorman Sensei is an 8th Dan in Uechi Ryu and most often did not train or teach in a full uniform or with a belt.  In fact, outside of photos, I've never seen Gorman Sensei in a full uniform or wearing his belt.  This translated to his students as well.  I would suggest that if your going to hunt around for a quote for a quick retort that you do a little more research into the art in question.  Or better yet, don't make a hasty retort like you're trying to score points.  Read what is offered by me and others and thoughtfully consider it even if you may not initially agree or if it differs from what you've done.



Is Gorman Sensei your Uechi Ryu teacher? When did you train with him? I ask because he has a webpage for his school, and everyone seems to be wearing gi and belts. 

http://jitekijyuku.ning.com/




Kong Soo Do said:


> For someone to say they wouldn't train in a TKD school, even if the training was great, because they didn't wear uniforms and belts is a demonstration of mixed priorities.  You both may want to thoughtfully consider rereading this thread in its entirety and learning from it.



You might wish to do the same, so you can understand the original topic and why the complete passage from Mattson Sensei's book is relevant to that.




Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as clothing, no one said anything about uncomfortable clothing except you and Al.  And once again, you've allowed the personality conflict you and Al have towards me to interfere with your ability to learn from someone who could teach you much in the area of SD.  This is a shame. With respect intended.



I'm glad that you feel you can teach both Al and I much in the area of self defense. Unfortunately, the topic isn't self defense, but rather whether the wearing of rank belts which show one's rank is important or not. To that, I leave you with Mattson Sensei's words on that topic: 

"When I was studying on Okinawa in 1957 or 58, often I would be working out or sparring with obviously very strong, advanced students who wore white belts. Later my instructor informed me they had fifth degree black belt ratings. They just never got around to getting a black belt and they just didn't think wearing one would improve their workout. Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn with pride." -- Sensei George Mattson


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> It isn't appropriate for the environment out of necessity, but of what has come to be expected.  Referencing the book that both I and Glenn have quoted from, one can see Uechi Kannei Sensei (and senior students) in the short pants (akin to a type of adult diaper worn there because of the hot climate) on pages 10, 11, 12 and others.  We can see just the bottoms in more pages than I can list.  Most of the kata demonstrations by Uechi Kannei Sensei are in just the pants.  In fact, you only see him in full uniform and belt in a few photos throughout the entire book and those are photo op pictures and not training pictures.  Sanchin kata is never trained in full uniform, particularly when it is part of the promotional testing portion.  He was far more senior than anyone in the Korean arts, the same with all of Uechi Kanbun Senei's senior students.  This is how they trained on a regular basis.



Maybe in the past, but not since 1974 when Mattson Sensei's book was published. The book is 492 pages long, and in the overwhelming majority of the photos, the students are wearing uniforms and belts. But over and above that, there is the quote from Mattson Sensei's book which tell us Master Uechi's wishes on the matter.

"Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn with pride." 




Kong Soo Do said:


> The bottom line is that it is a nicety, but by no means a necessity.



In Uechi Ryu, the bottom line would be if you are going to listen to Master Uechi's wishes on the matter, as told to us by Mattson Sensei in his book, or not.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> Is Gorman Sensei your Uechi Ryu teacher? When did you train with him? I ask because he has a webpage for his school, and everyone seems to be wearing gi and belts.
> 
> http://jitekijyuku.ning.com/


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> "Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn with pride."



Puunui, thank you posting this quote. The more I read it, and I am sure the more others read it, the more they will begin to see the value of wearing the uniform and belt. After time, and hopefully inspired by intelligence, those who wear the uniform will search out and begin to understand the profound philosophy of the East inherent in the uniform and belt. After more time, and serious training in the uniform and belt hopefully they will find the application of that philosophy which is inherent in their uniform and belt applies directly to the technique they are learning.

Martial arts is not just about technique, it's about everything else that goes with martial arts and I am happy to see that Uechi Sensei, and disciples agree.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I respect your opinion Daniel, even in disagreement.  Let me touch on a couple of points you brought up;
> 
> It isn't appropriate for the environment out of necessity, but of what has come to be expected.  Referencing the book that both I and Glenn have quoted from, one can see Uechi Kannei Sensei (and senior students) in the short pants (akin to a type of adult diaper worn there because of the hot climate) on pages 10, 11, 12 and others.  We can see just the bottoms in more pages than I can list.  Most of the kata demonstrations by Uechi Kannei Sensei are in just the pants.  In fact, you only see him in full uniform and belt in a few photos throughout the entire book and those are photo op pictures and not training pictures.  Sanchin kata is never trained in full uniform, particularly when it is part of the promotional testing portion.  He was far more senior than anyone in the Korean arts, the same with all of Uechi Kanbun Senei's senior students.  This is how they trained on a regular basis.
> 
> GM Dunn, who originally received his first BB on Okinawa rarely wears a uniform and belt.  At our annual seminar coming up it is a running joke among those of us in the TAC if he'll be wearing one
> 
> The bottom line is that it is a nicety, but by no means a necessity.


Necessity it may not be, but as I said, it is appropriate.  I suspect that if I taught kendo in a Speedo, I'd have no takers.  I may wear the garment well, but people would not accept it.  Even if Musashi himself had worn one, I'd have no takers.

Regardless of how it was in the olden days before belts, we have to deal with how it is now, regardless of how we may feel about it.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mastercole also explicitly said why; he felt that if they dropped the   uniform that it signaled other potential problems, not that the uniform   itself was a priority.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an opinion, not fact.
Click to expand...

What is an opinion?  What he said or that he said it?  It is not my opinion that that is what he said (Mastercole, if I have misrepresented you in my paraphrase, please say so).  It is of course how he feels about a taekwondo school where belts are not worn.  It isn't a question of right or wrong, or even of fact.  It is factual that that is how he feels.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Not wearing a particular outfit in no way, shape or form indicates the level of the training.


Nor did he indicate that it did.

I would be hesitant to train in a kendo school where nobody wore a hakama.  Not because of the training level but because in kendo, the hakama is appropriate attire.  Also, the pleats in the hakama each represent one of the virtues of kendo.  The purpose of kendo stated by the ZNKR makes it clear that kendo is not about being a better swordsman but about being a better person who can contribute to the collective humanity and promote peace between the people of the world.  Thus the symbolism of the attire becomes more important.  

I think, and again, Mastercole can correct me if I am off base, that his reason for not training in such a place is similar to why I would be reticent to train in a kendo school with no hakama.



Kong Soo Do said:


> As evident from my commentary on Uechi Ryu and the seniors in that art (and others to be sure), they rarely wore a full uniform and that philosophy was passed down to others that became seniors.  Rather than 'signaling other potential problems' as he surmises, it may signal a move that training is priority and uniforms and rank symbols aren't.  It may signal that one's skill is directly related to what they can do and teach rather than what is on their waist or what type of uniform (if any) is worn.


All fine and good, but if you, Glenn, and Master Cole wish to debate the historicity of Uechi Ryu Karate attire, please start a thread on the subject in the appropriate section.  

There is no historical significance to this topic: I started the topic at a time when there was a lot of heat regarding belts going on in other threads.  All of the arts that currently use belts use them for various reasons.  But the question is, 'Would *YOU* (the reader) train at a school that either displays no rank whatsoever, or one that only differentiates between kyu/geub grades and dan grades?'  There is no right or wrong answer.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Not patting myself on the back (so it should not be taken as such please), when I had a commercial school I had students coming from the surrounding four counties to receive training with me.  I very rarely wore a uniform, the same with them.  We trained exactly as I have described in various threads such as my Self-defense Training Methodology.  These included high liability professionals as well as private citizens.  They were there for what I offered, not for what they could wear.  Now that I teach privately, I still don't wear a uniform and I have to actually turn down new students due to lack of time.  I offer to put them on a waiting list and they accept.  To me, and this is my own personal/professional opinion and no offense intended to anyone, that is proper training mind set.  If one needs a particular uniform and a particular belt to be able to train then they are there for entirely the wrong reason.
> 
> Of all the people that I taught while not wearing a uniform...*no one ever had to wonder who the 'Sensei' was in the school.*  When a new student walked into the school, they never wondered who the Sensei was or the level of skill the other students had.  It was evident by watching them train.


Of course not; if you're not the person up front directing the class, you are not sensei.  Nor has anyone on this thread, near as I can tell, suggested that a lack of belt would be needed to tell who is sensei and who is not.

There are plenty of arts where belts are not utilized and everyone knows who the instructor is.  But.... to train or not to train at such a place? 

 That is the question.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would be hesitant to train in a kendo school where nobody wore a hakama.  Not because of the training level but because in kendo, the hakama is appropriate attire.  Also, the pleats in the hakama each represent one of the virtues of kendo.  The purpose of kendo stated by the ZNKR makes it clear that kendo is not about being a better swordsman but about being a better person who can contribute to the collective humanity and promote peace between the people of the world.  Thus the symbolism of the attire becomes more important.
> 
> I think, and again, Mastercole can correct me if I am off base, that his reason for not training in such a place is similar to why I would be reticent to train in a kendo school with no hakama.



Exactly. The dobok symbolically relates directly to our philosophical study, and, directly to our physical techniques. Of course one would have to understand Taekwondo to know that, like I never knew that about Kendo until you mentioned it.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> All fine and good, but if you, Glenn, and Master Cole wish to debate the historicity of Uechi Ryu Karate attire, please start a thread on the subject in the appropriate section.



I don't really wish to debate that, although I do believe that Master Uechi's thoughts (as described by Mattson Sensei) does fit the original subject about rank belts and how one should feel about them. That's why I thought it was strange that Kong Soo Do would choose to omit the end part of that passage, since it was directly on point. That's all.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

If Daniel will permit me a moment to address my Uechi Ryu reference, I feel that it does relate to the topic.  First Glenn, you're not understanding the point I've made in regards to the experience Mattson Sensei had in Okinawa.  What I quoted was a factual event.  This factual event relayed information that many practitioners (as evident by the story he relayed as well as multiple photos in multiple books on and about Uechi Ryu) did not put much stock in wearing full or traditional uniforms or wearing a belt or even the  correct belt.  The quote from Mattson Sensei that you followed with was his personal opinion, one that is not supported by fact.  As I relayed, I've trained in several Uechi Ryu dojos as it is very similar to Pangainoon, with the exception of the five katas later added by Uechi Kannei Sensei.  Since I was there personally, I can relay firsthand information that disputes Mattson Sensei's opinion.  We quite often did not wear the full uniform, nor our rank belts.  This is simply, as I've stated, factual firsthand information from someone there.  So the mindset that the training was primary and attire a non-consideration carried on from Okinawa to many of the dojos here in the west.  I cannot authoratatively speak for every Uechi Ryu dojo, but I can speak authoratatively on the ones I have trained in which include several of the most senior Uechi Ryu instructors in the U.S.

This lends itself to the topic of this thread.  The senior Uechi practitioners that I've trained with, as well as those I've talked with are very serious martial artists.  Anyone that knows them will attest to this fact.  Yet they don't often wear the unform/belt and this translates to their students and those that train with them.  I was often without my belt and top during training, more often than with it.  

Now to link it with the OP question of training without rank belts at all; there is no legitimate reason not to train there.  Many of the seniors in Okinawa began their training prior to Uechi Kannei Sensei adopting the Dan/Kyu system in 1954.  And they were serious martial artists.  They did not require rank belts to be serious martial artists.  That came later, and still wasn't needed to be a serious martial artist.  I feel that comments such as;



			
				mastercole said:
			
		

> As for no belts in martial arts schools, it depends on what it was. If it was a Taekwondo school and had no ranks, I would not recommend anyone to train there, regardless of how great the training was



...shows a priority on having rank and wearing it for all to see, than the actual training in and of itself.  No disrespect intended towards the person I've quoted.  But I have to seriously consider the mindset and priorties of someone that would pass on training, that in his own words is 'great' for the sole reason that belts aren't used.  The use, or non-use in no way indicates the level of training, and if the training is 'great' then it would be a high level school anyway.  

So with this in mind, I stand by my comments and original statement that a serious martial artists would train at a school that has 'great' training for the training itself without regard to whether or not they would/could/should wear a particular colored piece of cloth around their waste.  

That is my professional opinion, with respect.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Twin Fist said:


> dont be biting attackers if you dont know where they have been, thats nasty ....lol



Not to mention the possibility of blood born pathagens.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Now to link it with the OP question of training without rank belts at all; *there is no legitimate reason *not to train there.


I guess that it depends on what you mean by 'legitimate reason.' If I am truly bothered by the lack of belts, for whatever reason, and am clear about that if asked about the school, that is legitimate, though it may be a trivial reason in the eyes of some. 

It would not be a legitimate reason to speak negatively of the school. 

I refuse to buy an imported vehicle or a vehicle of foreign brand that is manufactured in the states. I will not recommend an imported vehicle or a vehicle of foreign brand that is manufactured in the states to others either. 

If asked why I recommend against purchasing a Mercedes, I will tell them that I do not believe in buying foreign made goods or from foreign companies when our own industry is suffering so greatly. Yes, a Mercedes is a great car. But I am *legimately* against purchase of imported vehicles when domestic vehicles are just as good and we have thousands of people out of work. And in making my recommendation against a Mercedes, I am telling you my *legitimate* reason for such counsel. 

It would not be legitimate if I were to recommend against the Mercedes on the basis that it is a bad car. That would be not be legitimate because it is simply not true.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Fair enough


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> First Glenn, you're not understanding the point I've made in regards to the experience Mattson Sensei had in Okinawa.  What I quoted was a factual event.  This factual event relayed information that many practitioners (as evident by the story he relayed as well as multiple photos in multiple books on and about Uechi Ryu) did not put much stock in wearing full or traditional uniforms or wearing a belt or even the  correct belt.  The quote from Mattson Sensei that you followed with was his personal opinion, one that is not supported by fact.



What part of this quote do you not understand? 

"When I was  studying on Okinawa in 1957 or 58, often I would be working out or  sparring with obviously very strong, advanced students who wore white  belts. Later my instructor informed me they had fifth degree black belt  ratings. They just never got around to getting a black belt and they  just didn't think wearing one would improve their workout. *Today,  however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of  working out without one. The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a  ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. Master Uechi explained to  me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn  with pride.*" -- Sensei George Mattson





Kong Soo Do said:


> As I relayed, I've trained in several Uechi Ryu dojos as it is very similar to Pangainoon, with the exception of the five katas later added by Uechi Kannei Sensei.  Since I was there personally, I can relay firsthand information that disputes Mattson Sensei's opinion.  We quite often did not wear the full uniform, nor our rank belts.  This is simply, as I've stated, factual firsthand information from someone there.  So the mindset that the training was primary and attire a non-consideration carried on from Okinawa to many of the dojos here in the west.  I cannot authoratatively speak for every Uechi Ryu dojo, but I can speak authoratatively on the ones I have trained in which include several of the most senior Uechi Ryu instructors in the U.S.



You mentioned one senior, Sensei Frank Gorman, but visiting his webpage, it seems everyone is wearing a uniform and belt. 

http://jitekijyuku.ning.com/

Anyone else you care to mention? 

PS: I believe that UECHI Kanei Sensei spells his first name with only one n. You've spelled it "Kannei" several times, which leads me to believe that it wasn't a typo.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> What part of this quote do you not understand?



I understand it in its entirety, which is why I don't understand why you don't.  One part is a factual event.  The other part is an opinion, unsupported by fact.  You're clinging to the unsupported opinion to provide evidence for your position.  This is faulty logic.  It cannot be explained to you any clearer than what I've tried to do several time Glenn.



> You mentioned one senior, Sensei Frank Gorman, but visiting his webpage, it seems everyone is wearing a uniform and belt.



And you don't realize the difference between a photo op and actual training during a normal class session?  I've trained firsthand in a Uechi Ryu dojo Glenn, I can therefore relay how we trained as well as relay how other Uechi Ryu practitioners trained.  One of which is a Sgt. and former academy student of mine that trained under Rick Martin Sensei, whom I also know and have trained with.  If some schools wear a uniform in class, or for a photo op, it does not take away from the points that I've made.  One does not need uniforms or belt rank for serious training to occur.

And I've seen it Kanei and Kannei,  I've seen Kammei and Kamei (the grandson).  If it will make you happy, I'll use Kanei.  Because I want you to be happy


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I understand it in its entirety, which is why I don't understand why you don't.  One part is a factual event.  The other part is an opinion, unsupported by fact.



Well, let's look at it then: 

"Today,   however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of   working out without one." This is a fact.

"The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a   ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. " This is a fact.

"Master Uechi explained to   me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn   with pride."  This is a fact. It is not Mattson Sensei's opinion that ratings are important and should be worn with pride, it is Master Uechi's teachings. Now if you are saying that Uechi Ryu students all over the world disregard Master Uechi's instructions on the matter, then that is another thing. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> And you don't realize the difference between a photo op and actual training during a normal class session?



Not in that webpage, no. Looks like they are in class. Why would he advertise that on his school webpage if that isn't how it is?


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> Well, let's look at it then:
> 
> "Today,   however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of   working out without one." This is a fact.
> 
> "The Uechi-ryu Karate Association now issues a   ceremonial belt along with a Shodan diploma. " This is a fact.
> 
> "Master Uechi explained to   me that the ratings should be important to a student, and should be worn   with pride."  This is a fact. It is not Mattson Sensei's opinion that ratings are important and should be worn with pride, it is Master Uechi's teachings. Now if you are saying that Uechi Ryu students all over the world disregard Master Uechi's instructions on the matter, then that is another thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Not in that webpage, no. Looks like they are in class. Why would he advertise that on his school webpage if that isn't how it is?



It's just more Orwellian double speak, similar to "our grandmaster is a member of the WTF, but, we don't like sport martial arts" when if fact the so-called grandmaster was NEVER a member of the WTF. On top of that the WTF's only function is to run competitions for Taekwondo - Sports! LOL!  

That's why I would never train, or recommend anyone ever train in a school that did not have uniforms and belts, did not maintain relationships with their seniors and hid away in their own little "Village" (see the movie), then for double speak, see the movie 1984, or better yet read the book.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Well, let's look at it then:
> 
> "Today,   however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of   working out without one." This is a fact.



Sigh...

Once again, this is an opinion.  One that is not supported by fact.  I have given you firsthand information that belts (as well as full uniforms) are not worn in class at all, or the majority of the time in the Uechi Ryu dojos I have personally trained in that are run by Uechi Ryu seniors.  As such, we did train without one, as did the seniors.  As did seniors in Okinawa after the implementation of the Dan/kyu system.  Accept it or not.  I'm not going to go any further with this as it is getting rather silly.

Bottom line, those that would never _train in a school that did not have uniforms and belts_ (where the training is great) are not serous martial artists.  I truly feel sorry for them and more so, I pity their students.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I don't know; I have no dog in this race, but you kind of furnished the source, so how can you say that it is opinion?


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## Kong Soo Do

I honestly don't see how you can see that it isn't an opinion.  Okay, one more time for grins.  Mattson Sensei stated;



> Today,   however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of   working out without one.



So according to the quote, students WOULD NEVER THINK OF WORKING OUT WITHOUT ONE.  Now, I am telling you, FIRST HAND BECAUSE I HAVE ACTUALLY, IN REAL LIFE, TRAINED IN TWO UECHI RYU DOJOS AND KNOW OF A THIRD, JUST IN MY AREA, RUN BY UECHI RYU SENIORS THAT CONDUCTED TRAINING WITHOUT WEARING THEIR FULL UNIFORM AND WITHOUT WEARING BELTS AND THE STUDENTS DIDN'T WEAR A FULL UNIFORM OR BELT EITHER.  I have seen photos of real workouts in other schools as well as discussions with REAL PEOPLE THAT REALLY TRAINED IN REAL UECHI RYU DOJOS THAT DIDN'T WEAR A FULL UNIFORM OR BELT IN THE WORKOUT.

So, it would appear that Mattson Sensei's statement, as much as I respect him, is NOT FACTUAL, IS NOT A FACTUAL HAPPENING IN REAL LIFE IN UECHI RYU DOJOS THAT I AM PERSONALLY AWARE OF ON THIS PLANET.  Therefore, since it isn't a factual statement...it is not fact.  Therefore it is an opinion.  Opinions don't need to be based upon facts, though it would be nice if they were.  

Someone could state that the sky has pink polka dots and purple ribbons but one glance upwards at a blue sky will show this isn't factual.  Someone can state students in an art ALWAYS WEAR THEIR UNIFORMS AND BELTS AND WOULD NOT THINK OF WORKING OUT WITHOUT THEM but glancing into a school/schools were the seniors and students aren't wearing them during the workout would show this isn't factual.

Has this been cleared up?  Seriously, has this been cleared up?  Do we really need to fill the thread with more commentary on what is a factual event and what is an opinion that is not based upon fact?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I honestly don't see how you can see that it isn't an opinion. Okay, one more time for grins. Mattson Sensei stated;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mattson Sensei said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, however, students wear their belts proudly and would not think of working out without one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So according to the quote, students WOULD NEVER THINK OF WORKING OUT WITHOUT ONE. Now, I am telling you, FIRST HAND BECAUSE I HAVE ACTUALLY, IN REAL LIFE, TRAINED IN TWO UECHI RYU DOJOS AND KNOW OF A THIRD, JUST IN MY AREA, RUN BY UECHI RYU SENIORS THAT CONDUCTED TRAINING WITHOUT WEARING THEIR FULL UNIFORM AND WITHOUT WEARING BELTS AND THE STUDENTS DIDN'T WEAR A FULL UNIFORM OR BELT EITHER. I have seen photos of real workouts in other schools as well as discussions with REAL PEOPLE THAT REALLY TRAINED IN REAL UECHI RYU DOJOS THAT DIDN'T WEAR A FULL UNIFORM OR BELT IN THE WORKOUT.
> 
> So, it would appear that Mattson Sensei's statement, as much as I respect him, is NOT FACTUAL, IS NOT A FACTUAL HAPPENING IN REAL LIFE IN UECHI RYU DOJOS THAT I AM PERSONALLY AWARE OF ON THIS PLANET. Therefore, since it isn't a factual statement...it is not fact. Therefore it is an opinion. Opinions don't need to be based upon facts, though it would be nice if they were.
> 
> Someone could state that the sky has pink polka dots and purple ribbons but one glance upwards at a blue sky will show this isn't factual. Someone can state students in an art ALWAYS WEAR THEIR UNIFORMS AND BELTS AND WOULD NOT THINK OF WORKING OUT WITHOUT THEM but glancing into a school/schools were the seniors and students aren't wearing them during the workout would show this isn't factual.
> 
> Has this been cleared up? Seriously, has this been cleared up? Do we really need to fill the thread with more commentary on what is a factual event and what is an opinion that is not based upon fact?
Click to expand...



First of all, do not shout at me. It is unnecessary and disrespectful.

Secondly, I disagree with your perspective; seems pretty factual to me, if a bit of a generalization. Kind of like saying that 'nobody listens to disco anymore.' Yes, somebody does, but as a general rule, disco is out of date and it is not being consumed by the masses outside of a niche. Thus the statement is factual, but generalized. 

You see it differently, which is fine, as even experts can disagree (and I am no expert). As I said, I have no dog in this race. 

If you and Glenn wish to continue debating Uechi Ryu and it's uniform practices, I will ask again that one of you start a fresh thread, as the part of it that was related to the topic (that they trained without uniforms at one point and did just fine) has been touched on several pages back and at this point, its just you and Glenn going at it with each other again. Which is why I made that request in the first place.


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## Kong Soo Do

Daniel, I was more than content to let it rest.  You asked the question in post #97, I followed up with my answer.  Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.  The caps weren't designed as a 'shout' but so the point(s) I was making would not be lost.  Take it as you wish.

This concludes my interest and/or involvement in this thread.  I have stated my thoughts on the matter, and I have stood behind those thoughts.  They may be taken or left as the individual desires.  See you in some other thread, on some other topic.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Daniel, I was more than content to let it rest. You asked the question in post #97, I followed up with my answer. Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer. The caps weren't designed as a 'shout' but so the point(s) I was making would not be lost. Take it as you wish.



Clarification appreciated.   Apologies for jumping to conclusions.



Kong Soo Do said:


> This concludes my interest and/or involvement in this thread. *I have stated my thoughts on the matter, and I have stood behind those thoughts.* They may be taken or left as the individual desires. See you in some other thread, on some other topic.


Indeed you have.  Your participation is appreciated.

Daniel


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## miguksaram

cushingkungfu said:


> Like I said, the Sashes were important. Hung Gar (and many other arts) use a dynamic tension type breathing in training which puts a great deal of pressure on the intestines. The sash serves the purpose of holding your intestines in place during training.


Ok...but is the color of the sash important?  While the sash has a functional purpose in training, do you use color sashes to show rank?


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## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Clarification appreciated.   Apologies for jumping to conclusions.
> 
> 
> Indeed you have.  Your participation is appreciated.
> 
> Daniel



My apologies for sounding snippy.


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## cushingkungfu

miguksaram said:


> Ok...but is the color of the sash important?  While the sash has a functional purpose in training, do you use color sashes to show rank?



Some schools use a sash color ranking system similar to the karate belt system.  Others use a phase training system, with four training phases with several forms in each (Sparing progressively harder and longer with continued training.).  Hung Gar has no official ranking system as a style, you simply train, practice and learn.   Traditionally, one would spend from several months to as much as three years perfecting stances before learning forms and techniques, then the first form was Gung Gee Fook Fu which contains the years of tiger system knowledge of Hung Hei Goon.  Things had to change somewhat for modern times and American students, and they continue to change today.  I have saw Hung Gar schools with as many as 7 different rank colors with children having added ranks or half forms required for some rank.  On the other side I know of schools that have only Students and Teachers (White and Black), though all teachers are also students.  So, to answer your question, it would depend on the school.  Some use color sash ranking while others do not.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I have considered using sashes instead of belts in the geomdo class that I teach because they hold the sword nicer.


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