# "Traditional Taekwondo"



## BaktoBasics (Jun 18, 2005)

Hi. I have my BB in TKD but my training was mainly competition. I have however undertaken various arts that are far superior so far as self defence goes: boxing, muay thai and wing chun. 

HOWEVER, I have recently encountered the term "traditional" TKD in a very reputable TKD school and I am VERY curious. It seems like a great school and it is very open minded in relation to techniques from other styles. 

Having said that, given that TKD nowadays is mainly competition based, can anyone further elaborate about "traditional" TKD? Was it used by Koreans in actual combat? Was it around before TKD was officially developed in the 1950's? 

I hear Korean martial arts have existed for thousands of years. And, TKD is simply a synergy of those fighting forms - however, competition has changed it. So, as I have said in the past, the rules of competition restrict real life self defence practices. Nevertheless, is there actually "traditional" TKD - is it effective? Does anyone do it?

The Koreans, using fighting arts for "2000" years (off a TKD website) ust have come up with something effective? right or wrong?

Appreciate any comments. 
Thanks.


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## BaktoBasics (Jun 18, 2005)

Sorry, I forgot to add. A friend said that the Korean military does TKD. However, it is very different to what is taught in most schools, it is very effective and the fancy competition based teaching does not nearly compare so far as self defence goes - can ayone confirm or deny this? 

If this is true, I think schools should clearly state that they teach "competition" OR "traditional" TKD, or, both. TKD has gained a bad name in martial arts circles (most martial artists grin and smirk when I say I have a BB in TKD). I think its time we find a distiction between competition and traditional TKD.


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## Adept (Jun 18, 2005)

If the korean military is taught TKD, I'm willing to bet it's just for PT.

 My advice to you is to go along for a few weeks, check it out, and see what you think. You're obviously far enough along in your own training that you know what you are looking for, and you'll either find it or not.


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## still learning (Jun 19, 2005)

Hello, Have you notice most Taekwondo schools forcus in lots of competitions  events?  For most of them it is a business to earn money teaching you something. Competitions gives students an excitement in the arts.

 The term "traditional" can and will be use for marketing purpose.  Only by going to the school and watching what they do and teach will you be able to check for yourself.

 My nephew got a 1st degree black in two years from a taekwondo school, he is now 7 years old.

 Your training in varies fighting arts has given you a new insights of knowledge of what works and may not be good for real,street fighing.

 Even in boxing and other arts the term "traditonal" is use.   

 What is "traiditional" may be different in everyone minds........,.Aloha


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## jkdhit (Jun 19, 2005)

traditional tkd is very different. my current school teaches the traditional method which is taught by the korean military. every citizen is korea is supposed to register for the army and serve, i believe 2 years or 3 years, i forget.

 my instructors teach the traditional method which is comprised mainly over building flexibility, endurance, and strength. i noticed that for every 50 minute class, about 25-30 minutes is based on stretching, improving flexibility, strength, and endurance. after all of that, we get to some of the most common techniques and a new technique is usually added every class.


 most schools teach for competition nowadays mainly to gain some reputation and win those trophies to gather more students. also some prefer to teach this way because of several reasons such as out of shape or injured people fearing not being able to keep up, people upset about not being promoted, and mainy techniques taught in the traditional method are dangerous or can cause serious injury.

 i noticed at my old schools and the school my brother currently attends, they never teach joint locks (except one very simple wrist lock at my brothers school) or leg sweeps. 

  however at my current which teaches the traditional method, a variety of leg sweeps and joint locks are taught


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## Han-Mi (Jun 19, 2005)

Not all tkd schools are excessivly focussed on competitions. And the Korean army does train in TKD as a fighting form as well as for PT, My instructor's instructor, Master Crawfort, accidently walked in on them once while he was on base in southern Korea while he was in the army. He saw only a moment before he was shewed out. He explained it as being very brutal. There were 2 groups, one was doing reps of kicks, one was full contact fighting without pads. His instructor (GrandMaster Ahn Chong Ho) told him he could have gotten in trouble for having been there as it is suposed to be pretty internal. That was a couple decades ago. But before that Grand Master Ahn tought TKD for the ROK army. So i do know they trained in it, though I couldn't say how they train currently. This was all decades ago.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jun 20, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> If the korean military is taught TKD, I'm willing to bet it's just for PT.




The Korean Marines I met seemed to take it pretty seriously.  Training was compulsory, and a black belt was required before making sergeant.  Officers and staff NCO's had to have dan rankings in two arts.  

As far as "traditional," how does one define the word?  One could come up with several definitions:

--An art that is practiced as it was, essentially, years before with little change or modification from the spirit of the art

--An art that practices certain traditions of respect, courtesy, etc.

--An art that combines both of the above.

--The art that is considered the most popular and widely practiced, and assumes the mantle of "traditional" even though it has evolved over time into something that vaguely resembles what it was decades before.

Pick one.  Or add one or two I might have missed.  

When it gets down to it, you might have two schools claiming they're "traditional" while pointing at each other and screaming "heresy!"  


Regards,


Steve


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## Gemini (Jun 20, 2005)

We practice both "traditional" and competition. Traditional is a word commonly used for "Self defense" which encompasses a great deal more than competition does. I personally love sparring, but we treat SD and sparring as two completely different entities. Simply because they are.

 Besides what you learn in competition class, a school that teaches TKD as self defense will generally teach low kicking/sweeps, take downs, joint manipulation, punching, blocking and a more in-depth history (as they know it) of the art.

 Is it effective? Depends on you. I know many TKD practitioners that you might want to think twice about walking up and insulting their art. I know others that IMO couldn't get out of their own way. Hmm. Sorta like every other art.

   Regards,


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## searcher (Jun 20, 2005)

Typically "traditional TKD" refers to General Choi's groups: ITF, ITA, Oh Do Kwan, etc.   The sport schools are WTF most of the time.   If you go and train with TKD people who train for self-defense you will get an eye-opening experience.   It is very different from the mainstreem sport oriented schools.   

To say that the ROK Army only uses TKD training for PT is not an accurate statement.   TKD can be very effective in a combat situation if you train for it, just as most systems can be.   It doe sdepend on the student and what the focus is.


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## pnoy_kickfighter (Jun 20, 2005)

BaktoBasics said:
			
		

> Hi. I have my BB in TKD but my training was mainly competition. I have however undertaken various arts that are far superior so far as self defence goes: boxing, muay thai and wing chun.
> 
> HOWEVER, I have recently encountered the term "traditional" TKD in a very reputable TKD school and I am VERY curious. It seems like a great school and it is very open minded in relation to techniques from other styles.
> 
> ...


 I think you should just watch the school for a few days and see for yourself. TKD has been around for 2000 years and have been used in the past to fend of enemy invaders in Korea, so I would say it is pretty effective if the school is really practicing the traditional arts. TKD gets a bad reputaion these days because most of the students practice sport type TKD and when is in a street fight gets pummeled. I've been going to a TKD school for the past 6 months and decided to look for a traditional style because after lots of reasearch found out that it is a sport type and wont help me in a street fight.


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## searcher (Jun 21, 2005)

pnoy_kickfighter said:
			
		

> I think you should just watch the school for a few days and see for yourself. TKD has been around for 2000 years and have been used in the past to fend of enemy invaders in Korea, so I would say it is pretty effective if the school is really practicing the traditional arts.


Not to make waves or anything, but TKD is not 2000 years old.  It is actually less than 100 years old.   You might be referring to Tae Kyon, which was added to Shotokan Karate by General Choi to create TKD.


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## bignick (Jun 21, 2005)

Actually, to cut it even shorter, the name Tae Kwon Do hasn't even been around for 50 years yet, I believe.


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## jkdhit (Jun 21, 2005)

gemini, i dont think traditional means only self defense   everything was started not only for defense but also offense, cant forget that it is the art of kicking, blocking, and punching


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## Gemini (Jun 22, 2005)

jkdhit said:
			
		

> gemini, i dont think traditional means only self defense  everything was started not only for defense but also offense, cant forget that it is the art of kicking, blocking, and punching


I understand, but every Korean Master I've ever met refers to it as a SD art. I'm told that's the mindset of their teachng in both their military and their schools. 

Most arts are referred to as SD even though any one of them, including TKD could certainly be used in an aggresive manner.


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## Brad Dunne (Jun 23, 2005)

Long story short = TKD originated in the 1950's from the inputs from Shotokan, Judo, Hapkido/Jujitsu along with a smattering of Chinese arts. Traditional TKD, in the easy to understand form was/is hard core self defense practice. Hard strikes - hand, foot, knees, elbows, plus joint locks/breaks, sweeps, takedowns, throws and chokes. The kicks were never above waist high, except as a finishing technique and they were very limited (i.e. Axe kick to back of neck when attacker was bent over from a previous technique). 

It is a shame that it has come to the position that it now enjoys, a sad watered down shell of what it once was. There are hopefully some older practicioners out there that still teach the real deal.


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## JanneM (Jun 24, 2005)

Dear Brad:

Where do you get your facts from?
Judo, Jujitsu or hapkido never had any input of taekwondo in tecnical asset. Judo was an influense to taekwondo only because Jidokwan was an old yudo (judo) club. The influense yudo gave to taekwondo was in fact the competition side and hard sports based training.

Strongest influenses to taekwondo was given by Itosu line shorin ryu (by Funakoshi etc...). Only very litle influenses where gotten from any other martial art but karate.

When taekwondo was built it was made as asport from the begining. Yes a martial art too but also as a sport. Sport side of taekwondo has always been very important to its development (in WTF and in ITF too). High kicks was also big part of taekwondo from the very begining. Taekwondo never had any or very litle input on ground fighting and grapling. TKD SD is more like block+hit or slide away and kick to the head/stomach/leg.

It is true that taekwondo is used by military and police in Korea but it is mainly for physical training. They also practise hand to hand combat but they mix it up. It is not only taekwondo tecnics but hapkido, yudo and other arts too. Mainly their H2H is tactical advanced to close combat.

Taekwondo is essential part of korean culture. It is practissed by kids as their after school program, it is practissed by teens as a sport, it is practissed in universitys and in professional teams and in Korea they all do it mainly for sport. You can also have a university degree in taekwondo. You go to military and you practise taekwondo (poomses and fighting mainly), you usually receave at least 1.dan before you get out from military. You have to have at least 1.dan if you want to aply to police forces.

The art has grat input in Korea but anyway in all the plases an all the cases the practise is mainly spots.

I don't see this as a bad thing. I see this is the way our beloved martial art is to be practised. If I want to practise joint locks and takedowns I go to my Hapkido (hapkiyusul) class or if I want to practise sword art I'll go to my Haidong Gumdo class. But if I want want to practise kicking and punching and have a hell of a good time doing it and maby attend my self in sparring session I'll go to my taekwondo class.


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## artist89 (Jun 24, 2005)

At my dads school we focus on the techniques at first then develope speed after words as you get higher in ranks. Also we focus on the forms or poomse in korean. But I have to agree Tae Kwon do is slowly loosing tradition here in the US and becoming more of "lets see how much money I can make" Few school instructors teach because the love tae kwon do and most (but not all) open a school trying to get "rich quick" and don't put their heart and soul into their teachings....


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 2, 2005)

o.k. i'm probly going to tick off every taekwondoka here, but sae la vie (french for that's life).taekwondo was orginally made by general choi of the south korean army as the disarmed form of combat (a heavly modified version is taught for much the same reason to the armys of most countrys including the u.s.). General Choi was acctuly born in the north, but fled to the south, being himself democratic. when japan took over korea in WWII the japanese goverment out lawed native martial arts, driving most of them to the break of extensoin, and completly destroying tae kwon according to legend. as a way to 'japanese' the koreans, the japanese goverment forced many people to learn japanese martial arts, namely Shotokan Karate-do. when the japanese were forced to leave korea they the karate they had forced the koreans to learn. then when korea split into north and south the southern general used Shotokan as a basis for a knew style. and to give it lagitimicy to his country men he saide it was derived from tae kwon, which he saide the japanese had destroyed. this was not true, in fact tae kwon is still in fact taught, but very few taekwondoka would ever knew. why? since tea kwon is really only taught in north korea. taekwondo became a very well know stlyeand many people began to slack off on their training and taught what they often refered to as "inproved taekwondo". know then what is really traditional teakwondo? well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. in south korea, taekwondo. they don't really have the so called improved, or combat style. so why do i say that alot people will get ticked off for saying this? well for any none taekwondoka, most taekwondoka get ticked off if you argue with the lineage of either themselves to general choi, or their stlye to tae kwon. that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics, since when they spar it's full contact. in fact you don't score a point unless the force of your kick knocks your opponent back 4 inches, or on their butt, i beleive. know the contact is full and you have to move your opponent back so far, i'm just not shure how far.

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John


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## Jerry (Aug 3, 2005)

*taekwondo was orginally made by general choi of the south korean army as the disarmed form of combat (a heavly modified version is taught for much the same reason to the armys of most countrys including the u.s.).*
"Made" is something of an overstatement. The Korean government, interested in a national martial art, created the committie that created TKD. The name is likely from Choi, and he had a lot of involvement in its creation; but it's not entirely his.

*when japan took over korea in WWII the japanese goverment out lawed native martial arts, driving most of them to the break of extensoin, and completly destroying tae kwon according to legend. as a way to 'japanese' the koreans, the japanese goverment forced many people to learn japanese martial arts, namely Shotokan Karate-do.* 
I'm curious what you mean by "forced". Studying MA was not compulsary. (to my knowledge).

*taekwondo became a very well know stlyeand many people began to slack off on their training and taught what they often refered to as "inproved taekwondo". know then what is really traditional teakwondo?* 
I've got no clue what you are referring to.

*well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. *
"it's a crime, in South Korea to teach TKD in North Korea"? This makes sense to you?

*that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics, since when they spar it's full contact.* 
You may want to tell that the the Korean Olympic TKD team. They apparently are unaware of your statement and show up and compete.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2005)

jerr, i mean know that, but i also know that general choi is normally considered the founder, and their for he "created" teakwondo. i mean that if you whated to learn a form of martial arts, you to learn Shotokan, and folks who did native martial arts were told "you can either stop doing martial arts altogther or you can do Shotokan, and you don't what to know what will happen if you try to keep doing your own style". they changed some things added others, and made sparring the art not just practice (and made sparring "better" by making it light or no conact and a bunch of other rules that make it so that it is very hard to get effective trainingfor self defense). acctuly yes it does. in South korea if you teach taekwon do to some one from North Korea it is considered treason. taekwon do was devopled as a, for lack of a better phrase, secert method to use if norht korea decided to try and attack. which is also why north korea has alot of tae kwon schools, to deal with that little unpleasintry. and think that at some point the u.n. did some thing like that to. but i don't know. and i mean they have, normally, a smaller percentige of teakwondoka at the olyimpics (doing it the way it was meant to), or something. i don't do that stlye so it doesn't really matter to much to me.

sweet Brighit bless your blade

John


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## Marginal (Aug 3, 2005)

That's not an especially accurate history.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> That's not an especially accurate history.


talkin to me?

Sweet Brighit bless your blade

John


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## kenpochad (Aug 4, 2005)

I could be wrong but i tuoght that korean military trained in mudokwan .


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## ave_turuta (Aug 4, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> o.k. i'm probly going to tick off every taekwondoka here, but sae la vie (french for that's life).taekwondo was orginally made by general choi of the south korean army as the disarmed form of combat (a heavly modified version is taught for much the same reason to the armys of most countrys including the u.s.). General Choi was acctuly born in the north, but fled to the south, being himself democratic. when japan took over korea in WWII the japanese goverment out lawed native martial arts, driving most of them to the break of extensoin, and completly destroying tae kwon according to legend. as a way to 'japanese' the koreans, the japanese goverment forced many people to learn japanese martial arts, namely Shotokan Karate-do. when the japanese were forced to leave korea they the karate they had forced the koreans to learn. then when korea split into north and south the southern general used Shotokan as a basis for a knew style. and to give it lagitimicy to his country men he saide it was derived from tae kwon, which he saide the japanese had destroyed. this was not true, in fact tae kwon is still in fact taught, but very few taekwondoka would ever knew. why? since tea kwon is really only taught in north korea. taekwondo became a very well know stlyeand many people began to slack off on their training and taught what they often refered to as "inproved taekwondo". know then what is really traditional teakwondo? well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. in south korea, taekwondo. they don't really have the so called improved, or combat style. so why do i say that alot people will get ticked off for saying this? well for any none taekwondoka, most taekwondoka get ticked off if you argue with the lineage of either themselves to general choi, or their stlye to tae kwon. that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics, since when they spar it's full contact. in fact you don't score a point unless the force of your kick knocks your opponent back 4 inches, or on their butt, i beleive. know the contact is full and you have to move your opponent back so far, i'm just not shure how far.
> 
> sweet Brighit bless your blade
> 
> John


 I am, after reading this, literally speechless.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 5, 2005)

kempochad, i didn't know that. this is just what i understand. i've heard this from books, t.v. shows, and taekwondoka. granted one is a 5th dan and the other i don't think made it to black belt and hasn't trained in like 15 years, but hay i don't do taekwondo, so i'm not the best person to hear this from. and aveturuta is that a good thing or a bad thing.

Sweet Brighit bless your blade

John


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## KenpoTex (Aug 6, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> in South korea if you teach taekwon do to some one from North Korea it is considered treason. taekwon do was devopled as a, for lack of a better phrase, secert method to use if norht korea decided to try and attack. which is also why north korea has alot of tae kwon schools, to deal with that little unpleasintry.


 Uh Yeah....never mind.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 6, 2005)

The TKD I learned was also termed "traditional" it was conditioning heavy (especially legs and abs). And it was about 60% hands and 40% feet. I look at "Olympic TKD" and respect and marvel at what they do but also think "wow what I learned looks nothing like that."  My advise, just go to a few classes and if you like what you see sign up. Don't make it obvious to the instructor what your looking for. I have seen instructors "change the lesson plan" to reflect what someone is looking for that day just to get them to sign a contract. Then when the person actually signs up they wonder when they'll see that kind of training again.


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## searcher (Aug 7, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> The TKD I learned was also termed "traditional" it was conditioning heavy (especially legs and abs). And it was about 60% hands and 40% feet. I look at "Olympic TKD" and respect and marvel at what they do but also think "wow what I learned looks nothing like that." My advise, just go to a few classes and if you like what you see sign up. Don't make it obvious to the instructor what your looking for. I have seen instructors "change the lesson plan" to reflect what someone is looking for that day just to get them to sign a contract. Then when the person actually signs up they wonder when they'll see that kind of training again.


Great advice!!


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 9, 2005)

Dear Brad:

Where do you get your facts from? (From JanneM)

This is one of the many history links that are available. Dates and old discipline names aside, they all list several arts that have a hand in building TKD. Many people only have been introduced to the sport aspect of TKD and that was not the original intent of those old masters that first came together. You will see that many of the kwans came into being in the late 40's and early 50's. The Kukkiwon and the WTF didn't come into being until the 70's. In conjunction with the history links, my first Korean instructor offered information on what he was taught. At the time he was in his late 60's and this was in the mid 80's. He taught and specified the disciplines that he was taught, which included Hapkido, Judo, Aikido and the given Japanese Karate. 
Granted, I am taking someone at their word, but I could not see any rational for this person to not be stating true facts. There was nothing to be gained from offering this information. As I stated prior, every history site that I have investigated all have several disciplines as a foundational status for the birth of TKD.

http://www.msu.edu/user/spock/history.html


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## OC Kid (Aug 10, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Not to make waves or anything, but TKD is not 2000 years old.  It is actually less than 100 years old.   You might be referring to Tae Kyon, which was added to Shotokan Karate by General Choi to create TKD.



You beat me to it. Traditional TKD before unification in the 1960's looked just like shotokan . the forms were very simular as well. In fact our own Dan Anderson who post here was orginally trained in a trad korean karate before the unification. he can elaborte more if he wishes to.


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## Marginal (Aug 10, 2005)

Drift happened quickly though. Dan's sparring book mentions that the style he studied was taken down a chinese influenced path not too long afterwards.


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## bluemtn (Aug 21, 2005)

Here is what I found from the internet, following links on my schools web site, and my school considers itself as "traditional"  (no, I'm not promoting the school or what not, it's just what I've found):



*Origins of Korean Karate or Tae Kwon Do*


The first formalized martial arts school in Korea was founded in 1944 in Seoul, by a man named Lee, Won Kook.  Master Lee founded not only the first, but also the largest and most influential martial arts school in Korea.  Born in Korea on April 18, 1907, Lee moved to Japan in 1926 at the age of nineteen. Lee was then trained in "Shotokan" karate with the founder and legendary teacher, the great Grandmaster Gichen Funakoshi. 


*New Martial Arts Academy*

Lee came back to Korea in 1944, just before the end of World War II.  He felt that training in Karate-do, "the empty hand," would benefit the Korean people.  Korea was still under Japanese occupation.  In order for Master Lee to obtain permission to start a martial arts school in Korea, he had to make an application to the Japanese government.  The application was rejected twice, but Lee received permission on his third try.  Master Lee began teaching Tang Soo Do ("Empty Hand") in Seoul.  In Japan, Grandmaster Funakoshi had changed the letter representing the name of his school from "Chinese Hand Art" to "the Empty Hand."  By changing the name, Funakoshi was able to make his introduction of the martial art more palatable to the Japanese. To decide the name of his new school, Lee used the Korean custom of changing the first name of a child, but keeping the rest of the name the same as the parents.  Sung Do Kwan ("Shotokan") became Chung Do Kwan, the name of Master Lees new martial arts school.  The full name of the academy was "Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan" School.  After Koreas independence on August 15, 1945, other martial arts schools (called "kwans") were opened in addition to Master Lees Chung Do Kwan School.
​*Who Kept the Academy Alive?*

On June 25, 1950, war broke out in Korea.  Master Lee was forced to flee back to Japan.  Son, Duk Sung as the senior student, was appointed headmaster becoming the second leader of the Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan School.  In 1955, an effort was made by the various kwans to create some sort of unity in the Korean martial arts.  Master Son and General Choi of the Korean Military, were on the panel that decided upon the name "Tae Kwon Do" (which means "foot and hand" fighting), for the marital art of Korea.  At that 1955 conference, Master Son was the highest-ranking Korean karate practitioner and teacher.  Master Son awarded General Choi an honorary 4th degree black belt.  Another noteworthy student who trained and received his Black Belt under Master Son was Jhoon Rhee.  Jhoon Rhee left Korea in the early 1960s to come to the United States, where he is known as the "Father of Tae Kwon Do."​*Tae Kwon Do Gets Organized*

When the Korean military government took over in 1961, a wave of Korean pride and nationalistic fervor gripped the country.  Many areas of life, including the martial arts, cut off the old ties to other countries. A cultural movement to become more "purely Korean" had an impact on the martial arts.  Many Korean karate masters had a problem with the government mandates placed on Tae Kwon Do training.  In response, the government formed the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association (K.T.A.) with General Choi in charge.  In 1962, the Korean Government only recognized the rank of those in the K.T.A. During the 1960s, many Korean karate masters left to form Tae Kwon Do organizations outside of Korea.  In 1963, Master Son came to the United States, united with several of the Tae Kwon Do instructors to form the "World Tae Kwon Do Association," (W.T.A.) to be an alternative to the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association (K.T.A.)
​*Tae Kwon Do Becomes an Olympic Sport*

A new organization was set up in Korea in the early 1970s with the goal of making Tae Kwon Do a new Olympic sport.  New forms were devised, using the Korean flag as a pattern for the movements.  Additionally, gymnastics were included in the new training methods.  In 1973, the organization became a new unified Korean Tae Kwon Do organization called the "World Tae Kwon Do Federation," (W.T.F.). Today, the W.T.F. is the largest Tae Kwon Do school in the world.  The W.T.F. considers modern Tae Kwon Do a "SPORT," with the emphasis on "competition," as opposed to classical Tae Kwon Do, which is an "ART" which places its emphasis on "self-defense." 

Modern Tae Kwon Do bears little resemblance to classical Korean karate.  But luckily for those who wish to study classical Tae Kwon Do, our school, "South Central Tae Kwon Do Association," offers us the opportunity to train in the traditional Korean martial art.  Our schools roots can be followed back to the first Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan school, with its transition from Korean karate to Tae Kwon Do. This evolution can be traced through our headmasters:
​*[size=+1]The Honorable Grandmaster Funakoshi[/size]* 
(founder and legendary teacher of Japanese Shotokan) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*[size=+1]Grandmaster Lee[/size]* 
(studied under Funakoshi and 
was the founder of the first formalized Korean karate school, 
"Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan.") 






*[size=+1]Grandmaster Son[/size]* 
(studied under Lee and 
became the second headmaster of the Chung Do Kwan School. 
Son was directly responsible for Korean karate 
being officially named, "Tae Kwon Do.")


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## shesulsa (Aug 21, 2005)

tkdgirl, if that information came from one or more websites with copyrighted information, you need to cite your source(s) according to copyright law and MT policy, please.


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## JAMJTX (Aug 22, 2005)

Traditional TKD would be as it was originally taught by General Choi, the founder.

It is doubtful that Korean martial arts have been around for thousands of years.  Evidence does not support that idea.

General Choi lived in Japan for 30 years, returning to Korea after WWII.  While there he studied Japanese Karate, primarily Shotokan.  When TKD was first developed, all of the forms taught were Japanese/Okinawan.  

The original form of TKD was taught in the military and is effective self defense.

Jim Mc Coy


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## terryl965 (Aug 22, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> Traditional TKD would be as it was originally taught by General Choi, the founder.
> 
> It is doubtful that Korean martial arts have been around for thousands of years. Evidence does not support that idea.
> 
> ...


where do you get general choi is the founding father of tkd, you mean modern day tkd don't you. TKD has been around since 37bc and there is enough evidence to support thoughs thereys. Why does everbody put choi as the founding father of tkd, and by the way he trained in Okinawa more than japan. Okinawa is there own country not part of Japan.


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## Marginal (Aug 23, 2005)

Shotokan was not practiced in Korea in 37BC.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 24, 2005)

ahhh Terry, I don't know how to tell you this, but Okinaowa is owned by Japan, and Tae Kwon Do was made prodimitly by General Choi. Korean Martial Arts have been around by for thousands of years, but Tae Kwon Do isn't one of them.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## Marginal (Aug 24, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> ahhh Terry, I don't know how to tell you this, but Okinaowa is owned by Japan, and Tae Kwon Do was made prodimitly by General Choi. Korean Martial Arts have been around by for thousands of years, but Tae Kwon Do isn't one of them.


You hush. You haven't demonstrated any knowledge of TKD whatsoever with your past contributions, and you have no business talking like you're an expert on the subject.


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## MJS (Aug 24, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-


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## Miles (Aug 24, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> As far as "traditional," how does one define the word?  One could come up with several definitions:
> 
> --An art that is practiced as it was, essentially, years before with little change or modification from the spirit of the art
> 
> ...


 I too am stuck at the onset with how one defines "traditional."  

 If asked to choose, I would say Taekwondo would be traditional under Steve's definition #2.  The art itself hopefully is evolving to meet the needs of contemporary society.  The traditions of respect for yourself, your dojang, and other Taekwondoin/Mudoin should not change.  The tradition of showing courtesy to others both within and without the dojang does not change. 

 Miles


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## Spookey (Aug 24, 2005)

Dear All,


Having panned through this thread and seeing the various discussion regarding the creation, evolution, and general basis of Taekwon-Do. I have agreed and disagreed.

Regardless, I wish to add the following in regards the opinions of "Traditional Taekwon-Do" (ie: When they were fighters and soldiers not "players"). Here the opinion of our nations defenders the USMC regarding Taekwon-Do!

Click here... 
http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2005/05durand.html

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> ahhh Terry, I don't know how to tell you this, but Okinaowa is owned by Japan, and Tae Kwon Do was made prodimitly by General Choi. Korean Martial Arts have been around by for thousands of years, but Tae Kwon Do isn't one of them.
> 
> Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,
> 
> John


 John here is a piece of info. from the Kukkiwon website about the history please read and if you dis agree please e-mail them to let them now/ Have a nice day.
 Master Terry Lee Stoker

_**MODERATOR NOTE**
 ~Copyrighted material removed to comply with copyright law and MT policy. Please review the rules pertaining to posting copyrighted material - available at the RULES link on the blue menu bar at the top of every page on MT.

 ~G Ketchmark / shesulsa
 ~MT Senior Moderator_


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## Marginal (Aug 25, 2005)

The WTF info's a skosh too sanitized/biased, it's about like going strictly by the ITF history. A lot happened, and there were a great many contributors to the current state of TKD. 

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html

I'm not going to cut and paste the whole thing, but it does provide a fairly balanced overview of how things developed. Vague cave paintings and folk leg wrestling games just aren't strong enough links to what's actually practiced today IMO.


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> The WTF info's a skosh too sanitized/biased, it's about like going strictly by the ITF history. A lot happened, and there were a great many contributors to the current state of TKD.
> 
> http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html
> 
> I'm not going to cut and paste the whole thing, but it does provide a fairly balanced overview of how things developed. Vague cave paintings and folk leg wrestling games just aren't strong enough links to what's actually practiced today IMO.


This is Kukkiwon info. not WTF, WTF is world taekwondo federation there is a differemce in the two organization and you are right about the ITF there info. is different too.
Thanks 
Master Stoker


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## Spookey (Aug 25, 2005)

Dear All,


This is turning into a "Creation of Taekwon-Do" thread so lets take it back and review some previous points and get it going again!

Please visit 10 pages of previous thread regarding the same line of conversation...


Who is the Founder of TKD...Debate! 

Hope to see you all there soon...or lets start another thread in the TKD section (revisited so to speak) if this one is a bit to cluttered!

I recommend this suggestion based on the number of new-comers and the interesting info they will share and learn!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## Marginal (Aug 25, 2005)

Once you start getting into the founders, it's kind of a dry hole topic IMO. It's kinda like debating what constitutes fair use some will argue that reposting a portion of an article for educational purposes, for no profit, with full credit, and in a context that is not challenged by the copyright holder would constitute fair use... But I digress. It only matters as far as considering what the founders had in mind, and if there's room for growth (if the art's living) of if there is no room for growth (the art's dead) and what form further growth takes before the art ceases to be traditional.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 25, 2005)

mariganal, just so you know I mean no offense by what I put and (with all due respect) unless youre a 6th Dan I think i'm right. See I heard that from a 5th Dan, and we may both be right, or we may both be wrong. Or whatever combination of the two you would like.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## Marginal (Aug 25, 2005)

I think the fact that every TKD practitioner that read your attempt at TKD history said "Uh, that's wrong" would indicate that your knowledge of the subject is incorrect. 

Can't pull rank by proxy.


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> mariganal, just so you know I mean no offense by what I put and (with all due respect) unless youre a 6th Dan I think i'm right. See I heard that from a 5th Dan, and we may both be right, or we may both be wrong. Or whatever combination of the two you would like.
> 
> Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,
> 
> John


Dear John just because you are a 5th Dan does not make your point me myself have been doing TKD for over 25 yrs and I;m no aurthority on the history I follow what my Master told me. As you pointed out earlier I know nothing and I'm a 4th Kukkiwon certified been over there and trained while I was there but I know nothing according to you please visit the Kukkiwon wegbsite and see who they contribute for there Art and then we can talk. And by the way grand Master Kim is higher than a 5th and so is Master Jimmy Kim and Master Combe tested at the Kukkiwon for his 6th but they know nothing either right only you, what is your TKD linage if you do not mind answering.
Thanks
Master Stoker


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## Spookey (Aug 25, 2005)

Dear All,


I step in and ask the following questions...

Will someone post a quote by Coungnhuka that spawned the last few comments.

Mr. Coungnhuka,

Can you explain how being a specific rank in Taekwon-Do necessarily gives them more knowledge of the arts history?

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 25, 2005)

Okay...I'm going to jump in here, if I may.

1.  Choi, considered by many the "Founder," ought to be recognized as the greatest early political force in the art.  There were a host of other schools other than his, and many of them stayed outside of Choi's organization.  He brought a number of them into his fold, however, and largely through his efforts the art grew throughout South Korea.  He deserves credit for this...though those who were independent of him need to be acknowledged.

2.  Korean martial arts existed for centuries.  What we see today, however, are arts far different than those practiced prior to the Japanese occupation at he beginning of the last century.  In fact, what we see today in Tae Kwon Do is far different than that practiced thirty years ago.  

Regardless, claiming Tae Kwon Do's roots go back thousands of years--as the Kukkiwon web site claims--is really stretching it a bit, and making an appeal to antiquity which it doesn't deserve, and doesn't need.  

3.  If a person is a 5th dan, that doesn't necessarily mean he knows more history than a 1st dan.  Nor does a 6th dan necessarily know more about history than a 5th dan.  

4.  None of us TKD practitioners in the west have ANY obligation to align ourselves in the petty political squabbles of one Korean organization with another.  Nor do we have to assume their nationalistic stance and their resentment of the Japanese (though this resentment is understandable).  

And I'll end with some questions...

5.  If our master tells us a certain version of history is true...is it true, simply because he's our master?  Do we accept without question everything a person in a position of authority gives us?  Where do we draw the line?  

How much of our self-esteem is derived from our relationship to that person and our acceptance of his doctrines?




Regards,


Steve


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> Dear All,
> 
> 
> I step in and ask the following questions...
> ...


spookey I guess it started when he is not even a TKD'er but tells me I know nothing about a Art that I have persomaaly have been in over 25 yrs. My facts may or may not be true I agree but the Master that I train with and the Kukkiwon has there way of saying and since I'm Kukkiwon certified I will stay with there way of thinking right or wrong they are the governing body atleast one of them. If I affend anybody it is not my way.counghuka I wish you luck in your endevours/
Master Stoker


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## Marginal (Aug 26, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> o.k. i'm probly going to tick off every taekwondoka here, but sae la vie (french for that's life).taekwondo was orginally made by general choi of the south korean army as the disarmed form of combat (a heavly modified version is taught for much the same reason to the armys of most countrys including the u.s.). General Choi was acctuly born in the north, but fled to the south, being himself democratic. when japan took over korea in WWII the japanese goverment out lawed native martial arts, driving most of them to the break of extensoin, and completly destroying tae kwon according to legend. as a way to 'japanese' the koreans, the japanese goverment forced many people to learn japanese martial arts, namely Shotokan Karate-do. when the japanese were forced to leave korea they the karate they had forced the koreans to learn. then when korea split into north and south the southern general used Shotokan as a basis for a knew style. and to give it lagitimicy to his country men he saide it was derived from tae kwon, which he saide the japanese had destroyed. this was not true, in fact tae kwon is still in fact taught, but very few taekwondoka would ever knew. why? since tea kwon is really only taught in north korea. taekwondo became a very well know stlyeand many people began to slack off on their training and taught what they often refered to as "inproved taekwondo". know then what is really traditional teakwondo? well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. in south korea, taekwondo. they don't really have the so called improved, or combat style. so why do i say that alot people will get ticked off for saying this? well for any none taekwondoka, most taekwondoka get ticked off if you argue with the lineage of either themselves to general choi, or their stlye to tae kwon. that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics, since when they spar it's full contact. in fact you don't score a point unless the force of your kick knocks your opponent back 4 inches, or on their butt, i beleive. know the contact is full and you have to move your opponent back so far, i'm just not shure how far.


 
Spookey, this is what initially prompted my comments on coungnhuka's limited knowledge base. 

Going off the ITF's historical information http://www.itf-information.com/information15.htm his version is a bit off.


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## Spookey (Aug 26, 2005)

Dear Sir,

I am a Taekwon-Doin of the teachings of General Choi Hong Hi. My Instructor was certified by the Oh Do Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, and ITF. That being said I am vigorously pro-active in regards to the Chang Hon Taekwon-Do!

That being said (with loyalty to that which Choi Sabum gave selflesslyto my family) I can rightfully say that General Choi spoke freely of "bastardization" of the art.

Originally, after having read only portions of your posts I thought I might find myself allied with you regarding your thinking. Pretty much everyone here is aware of my opinion regarding Taekwon-Do. That being said, I am greatly disappointed in the quoted post I have just read. Why you might ask? Because half truths and variations from fact are what have created the political situation that our art is surrounded by!



> then when korea split into north and south the southern general used Shotokan as a basis for a knew style. and to give it lagitimicy to his country men he saide it was derived from tae kwon, which he saide the japanese had destroyed. this was not true, in fact tae kwon is still in fact taught, but very few taekwondoka would ever knew. why? since tea kwon is really only taught in north korea.


General Choi freely stated that he as a child studied TaeKyon which disputes the comment that it was "destroyed"...TaeKyon today is growing ever more popular throughout Korea! (www.taekkyonkorea.com) and much media is available from Turtle Press! Thus disputing the comments of it only existing in the north!



> well, outside south korea (since it is a crime in at least south korea to teach taekwondo in the north), nothing really. in south korea, taekwondo. they don't really have the so called improved, or combat style. so why do i say that alot people will get ticked off for saying this? well for any none taekwondoka, most taekwondoka get ticked off if you argue with the lineage of either themselves to general choi, or their stlye to tae kwon. that is why (forgot this part) taekwondo in korea looks differnit, and you also donn't see alot of korean taekwondoka in the oylimpics


Not a year ago the ITF held a World Championship in South Korea. Also, the North Korean Demo Team of the ITF preformed in South Korea for many dignitaries. In exchange the Kukkiwon held an exhibition in the DPRK.

Regarding the Olympics...the head of the Olympic Taekwon-Do commission is based in South Korea. The exhibition of the sport was performed in South Korea, and to date the Republic of Korea possess the most metal holders of any other countries. They even have full time universities dedicated to Taekwon-Do which promote some of the strongest Olympic fighter / players in the world!

If you are going to tell it...tell it right!

TAEKWON!
SpOOkeY

(PS. If you want to know what im all about, read the sign off below!)


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## Marginal (Aug 26, 2005)

http://sonkal.taekwondo.cz/videa/13/TKD_ITF_in_Seoul_part.I.wmv
http://sonkal.taekwondo.cz/videa/13/TKD_ITF_in_Seoul_part.II.wmv

The aforementioned N Korean demonstration.


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## Spookey (Aug 26, 2005)

To All,

I appreciate the sincere intentions of those that contribute to this forum. There is always going to be differences of opinion. Those different views will generally both be related to certain historical actions that have contributed to the individuals opinion or conclusion on the subject. 

Personally, I believe that General Choi's core group (including Nam Tae Hi, Han Cha Kyo, Rya Young Chul, etc.) were the first to create a system of techniques which differentiate from Karate-Do. Furthermore, I believe that when General Choi and his core group left the Republic of Korea in the late 1960's that the Kukkiwon came along and created yet a continuing variation. Thus we have an art evolving in two seperate directions. Thus creating Taekwon-Do (A) and Tae Kwon Do (B). I feel there will always be a connection that cannot be seperated. Why? Many of the instructors from the original five kwans later served in the ROK military and became instructors of the Oh Do Kwan. Later they would split and join respectively the ITF, WTF, Kukkiwon, GTF, and other organizations as well as some teaching independent of overhead. Thus the forerunners of Taekwon-Do (Tang Soo Do and Karate-Do) became Taekwon-Do (A & B). As most first and second generation instructors full under one of the two doctrine.

I apologize if I sounded arrogant in my previous post. My soul intention is to promote Taekwon-Do. Therefore, I find it necessary to tell the facts as they are, regardless of which doctrine you proclaim and express. First there was no Taekwon-Do, then there was one Taekwon-Do...evolution saw another seperation in the 1970's with the founding of the Kukkiwon. It is time for history to repeat itself and for there to be one Taekwon-Do. Not necessarily a unified cirricullum or one single organization or governing body, but one mutual respect between all Taekwon-Doin!

Formally, I call upon all Taekwon-Doin (both instructors and students) to unify in a since of mutual respect for one another regardless of ideology or doctrine. Help be a positive part in the continuing evolution of Taekwon-Do. This is the only way to preserve the art!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## terryl965 (Aug 27, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> To All,
> 
> I appreciate the sincere intentions of those that contribute to this forum. There is always going to be differences of opinion. Those different views will generally both be related to certain historical actions that have contributed to the individuals opinion or conclusion on the subject.
> 
> ...


Very well put spookey, we all should try and get along we all belong to TKD in one way or another.
Master Stoker


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## Miles (Aug 27, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> I apologize if I sounded arrogant in my previous post. My soul intention is to promote Taekwon-Do. Therefore, I find it necessary to tell the facts as they are, regardless of which doctrine you proclaim and express. First there was no Taekwon-Do, then there was one Taekwon-Do...evolution saw another seperation in the 1970's with the founding of the Kukkiwon. It is time for history to repeat itself and for there to be one Taekwon-Do. Not necessarily a unified cirricullum or one single organization or governing body, but one mutual respect between all Taekwon-Doin!
> 
> Formally, I call upon all Taekwon-Doin (both instructors and students) to unify in a since of mutual respect for one another regardless of ideology or doctrine. Help be a positive part in the continuing evolution of Taekwon-Do. This is the only way to preserve the art!
> 
> ...


 Spookey, no need to apologize!  Those of us who have read your prior posts did not confuse your intention-we did not see "arrogance" as much as we saw "passion."  Which is a good thing.

 There is only 1 Taekwondo.  Just as it is a natural law that things go from a disorderly state to an orderly state, Taekwondo is unifying all of the umbrellas.  Just look at what has happened within the last few years with the ITF-NK and the WTF.  Once there is cooperation at the sport-level, there will be increased cooperation (read "unification") at the curriculum level...

 Miles


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## Spookey (Aug 27, 2005)

Dear Sir,

The comrodary we have shared over the course or discource of many threads is specifically the respect that I am speaking of. We come from the farthest opposite ends of the TKD spectrum. You promote the Kukkiwon doctrine while promote the doctrine of CHang Hon. The difference is literally as different as black and white.

We have discussed, debated, and disputed most portions of the history and foundation of our art and stand at opposite ends of the spectrum. However, we have never created a since of disrespect amongst each other. I believe we could share conversation or training time with nothing more than the utmost respect and genuin interest regarding the topic.

Why therefore is it so hard for Taekwon-Doin to respect each other as a whole?

I believe as long as you promote your cirricullum with honesty that you are deserving of respect. 

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY


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## Miles (Aug 28, 2005)

Thank you Sir!

 I feel the same way.  I love to argue and discuss (heck, I do it for a living , but at the end of the day, all we can hope to do is give others a glimpse into our own perspectives.  

 Take Care,

 Miles


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## Spookey (Aug 28, 2005)

Dear Miles,

This specific forum has been the location of greatest enjoyment amongst the forums.

I know I have learned alot over the past year or so simply from the conversations that I have had the luxury of holding with a few specific members (although all have provided insight and joy).
Yourself, Marginal, and Terryl965 have "befriended me" online. You all have been involved in my most committed debates and most heart felt discussions. This is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the martial arts. A sense of community and comraderee. For that I commend you all!

TAEKWON!
SpOOkeY


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## terryl965 (Aug 29, 2005)

Spookey I'm Humble by your enjoyment of our decussions and our love for TKD.

Thank and God Bless
Master Stoker


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## Spookey (Aug 30, 2005)

Dear Sir(s),



TAEKWON!


Spookey


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## Miles (Aug 31, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> You all have been involved in my most committed debates and most heart felt discussions. This is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the martial arts. A sense of community and comraderee. For that I commend you all!


  I teach that "sparring" is an exchange of techniques.  It is not "fighting" since there is no intent to injure or kill.

This forum is about an exchange of ideas.  It is not fighting either.  There is no intent to hurt, only to educate.

Thanks for all of the exchanges and may there be many more!

Miles (bowing)


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## IcemanSK (Nov 15, 2005)

Throwing punches while sparring is also a part of traditional TKD. It was when I started. It seems a lot less so in sport TKD.


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