# Realistic Training !!



## Ronnin

Okay, try not to jump down my throat everyone, but the only concern I have in training (I can only speak for Bujinkan) is I don't think we do enough "real" training. When I say real I mean the uke gives you a left jab, right cross, then left hook. And I don't mean steping with the left foot when he's punching with the left hand either. It's very easy for us to get into position when the uke steps in when he punches, we just hit that 45 degree angle steping outside the punch, moving in, then walla, you're almost totally behind the uke free to do what you will with him. BUT, when the uke dosen't step with his foot, as seen in a boxers punch we have to change our movement almost completely. Another example is: uke punhes (regular training punch) and we step back and "catch" (not really catch but you know what I mean) then maybe put on Take Ori. Do we forget how fast a real punch is coming, and then it doesn't just sit out there waiting for us to grab it, it retracts just as fast. And that is just with your basic street guy, now throw in a trained guy in say Wing Chun. Those are some seriously fast hands. I'm not sure anyone is fast enough to grab that. Now I know, I'm not a "newbie" I know there are thing we can do to "ensure" his punch be slowed down. I know some Dojo's do train with this in mind. Mine didn't, and many people I've spoken to, theirs didn't either. So I'm not speaking to ALL, so please refrain from coming on say " well mine does, and every dojo I know does to, your's may just suck". And don't tell me to go to To Shin Do either. I know alot of what we do is because it's traditional, and that's good, that's one of the main reasons why I love this art, the traditions. I just think we should look at not changing the art, please that's not what I'm saying but begin to put a more "todays" understanding in many of the techniques. What do you think. (please forgive any mispelled words, my spell check is broken) Please be reminded I am meaning no disrespect here, thus I should not receive any. Thank you.


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## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I know alot of what we do is because it's traditional,



Nope.

We do things that have been passed down to us because they have a reason. Just because we do not understand those reasons and due to our ignorance think there are better ways, does not mean that there is no meaning to them.

I used to think a lot of things about the way things are done in the Bujinkan and martial arts training. Over the years I have come to realize that much of what I thought was just tradition or some other reason actually was a very, very vital part of the process of learning how to defend yourself in a lethal confrontation.

If you do not see the use for some of the stuff you do in training, one very real possibility is that you need to look deeper and gain some more understanding.


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## Ronnin

I am not saying I don't understand why we do the things we do, and I also realize that we do a lot of things where in time the truth behind it reveals itself, I have infact written many essays on the subject of the hidden purpose, but the fact is for example when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional, unless there's many people walking around in samurai armor. That's just one example there's many others. I also know that it's up to the practitioner to develop his "own way" so to speak. Hatsumi sensei says " I show you the technique itself, you find how to get there". I just think...........well maybe I'm speaking on the importance of Hanka.


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## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I am not saying I don't understand why we do the things we do, and I also realize that we do a lot of things where in time the truth behind it reveals itself, I have infact written many essays on the subject of the hidden purpose, but the fact is for example when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional, unless there's many people walking around in samurai armor.



It seems indeed that you do not understand the reasons behind what we do if you think that age uchi can only be used against someone in armor.


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## Ronnin

I'm not saying "only" be used. But in a real situation, it just happens to fast. And when we train it, it comes from the battlefield, and was developed to combat the more heavily armored thus slower moving samurai. Now some of us can take that technique and figure out a way to use it maybe. But the problem I think is this type of senario doesn't usually come around in the dojo. At least in mine. I'm mainly talking about the mindset. I know the the techniques can be swiched to real life, or at least some of them can, but what's the good if that mindset is never taught.


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## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I'm not saying "only" be used. But in a real situation, it just happens to fast.



Again, I caution you. Just because you do not understand something or are unable to pull something off, do not assume there is no reason or that others are also unable to pull it off.


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## stephen

Ronnin said:


> (I can only speak for Bujinkan) is I don't think we do enough "real" training.





First of all, you CANNOT speak for "The Bujinkan".

You CAN speak for your dojo. 

Maybe you should speak to your Shidoshi about this, or find a new teacher.

I also see that you've looked at other dojo and you're still not satisfied. Drive further.


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## KageMusha

I always felt, (since this is what I was told), is that the kata teaches you an idea.  If you rely on a technique and you screw it up, you are screwed, but if you are following an idea, the techniques can change to adapt.


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## Bujingodai

I agree, I think there is too much thought being put into the technique itself not the movement your body is attempting to understand.
Got to go with Don on this one.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Shihan Michael Asuncion talked on this yesterday and since I do not want to speak for him I will relate my own opinion. 

The kata's are designed to teach you movement and principles.  Once you understand these principles and the movement behind them then you can apply then in multiple ways against various forms of attacks.  Try to be aware of the spacing as that may also dictate what your opponent does.  If you manipulate the "kukan" then you may be able to draw your opponent into something that might be beneficial to you.  

One point though is that do not try to force a technique to work but let it happen naturally.  Flow into what you *can do* in the moment!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> When I say real I mean the uke gives you a left jab, right cross, then left hook.


 
Most people who really want to knock your teeth down your throat won't punch like that either.



Ronnin said:


> Another example is: uke punhes (regular training punch) and we step back and "catch" (not really catch but you know what I mean) then maybe put on Take Ori.


 
Basic Bujinkan rule a lot of people are never told, but IMO should be - you can't think in terms of "putting on" techniques. It's never going to work.



Ronnin said:


> Do we forget how fast a real punch is coming, and then it doesn't just sit out there waiting for us to grab it, it retracts just as fast. And that is just with your basic street guy, now throw in a trained guy in say Wing Chun. Those are some seriously fast hands.


 
We're not supposed to grab. We're supposed to bring it to us. 
For a series of chain punches the opponent needs a certain distance, you can be outside or inside of that distance.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> And when we train it, it comes from the battlefield, and was developed to combat the more heavily armored thus slower moving samurai.


 
Depends on the school. :ultracool 



Ronnin said:


> I'm mainly talking about the mindset. I know the the techniques can be swiched to real life, or at least some of them can, but what's the good if that mindset is never taught.


 
I've never been "taught" that mindset per se, it has more been conceptualized into the situation. For instance by training with people I didn't get along very well with or who had some control issues. Not only that of course, but there are pitfalls to be found within being "satisfied" with your training. I believe that a big part of getting good at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is enduring stuff that would make a lot of people quit.


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## Alan Witty

I see this come up over and over again in posts here and elsewhere.  I think that the issue is not with the material but how it is taught.  Also, the mind set of the instructor. What is the instructor trying to convey?  The ones I have trained with drill the Waza or concept and than rapidly move to application in a variety of settings and against a variety of attacks at varying speed.

They also looked at the concepts in light of various other fighting arts that they had studied or if need be reviewed for that series of lessons. I do the same.  On Tuesday, driven a bit by the knife thread on Kutaki, we spent a whole class looking at the practical vs. the Dojo.  On Thursday we spent the whole night looking at escapes from a variety of grabs and attempts at takedowns. 

Again, the mindset of the teacher sets the class. If you feel you need more "realistic&#8221; than ask your teacher for a henka or variation on whatever you want to focus on.  A good instructor should be able to address it or be honest enough to say "Had not thought that through but I will and address it next class."


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## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> Again, I caution you. Just because you do not understand something or are unable to pull something off, do not assume there is no reason or that others are also unable to pull it off.


 
Again, I didn't say I don't understand, I'm saying (at least in my dojo, and the others on my area) that I don't think there's enough emphasis on the "street" mindset. And yes this is one of the reasons why I am looking into other areas.


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## KageMusha

Ronnin said:


> Again, I didn't say I don't understand, I'm saying (at least in my dojo, and the others on my area) that I don't think there's enough emphasis on the "street" mindset. And yes this is one of the reasons why I am looking into other areas.



You did state in your first post that you did not want anyone to answer with "find a new instructor" or "but this is how we do it at our dojo".  Compaired to what you just said, what do you really want someone to tell you?


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## Ronnin

................sigh


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## KageMusha

I didn't mean to to make you mad, but what is your question?  Are you asking if the Bujinkan is lacking focus on "real" training or your dojo?  Maybe we just don't understand your question.  

I know our group is 100% real training once you understand the idea of the kata.  But you told us not to tell you that.


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## Ronnin

I'm not new at training, I know each dojo trains different, that's why I stated more than once I was refering to my dojo, and the ones in my area based on those I've spoken to. I was stating my general frustration and was wondering if other peaople had this problem.


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## stephen

Ronnin said:


> I'm not new at training, I know each dojo trains different, that's why I stated more than once I was refering to my dojo, and the ones in my area based on those I've spoken to. I was stating my general frustration and was wondering if other peaople had this problem.




Oh, I see, in that case:

No.


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## KageMusha

Got it.

I also do not have that problem.


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## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Again, I didn't say I don't understand,



And based on what you write, I am saying that you don't understand. You *think* you understand, and that is dangerous. 

When you started the thread about switching to Genbukan, you said that you had been training in the Bujinkan for "a couple years now." Well, at that stage in your training you should not be dealing much with rokushakubo IMO,, much less writing essays about the secret teachings hidden within the movemnets. You still have a lot of things to learn and thinking that you have all the answers is a very dangerous thing indeed.

There are things done in the Bujinkan and they are done for a reason- not tradition. All real students owe it to themselves to explore what they are taught so that they understand everything we do, and the reasons behind them. They should not jump in and say that certain things are useless or not applicable until they have that total knowledge.


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## Ronnin

Teach me more o-wise one.
You sure seem to know it all. It's amazing how you seem to know what I'm doing and not doing. A bit pompis ?


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## bydand

I'll refrain from posting what I want to and will instead be polite.  Ronnin, take another look through the thread, you asked a question, people gave you answers.  You don't like them, that's fine, there is no reason to get sarcastic and rude to anybody.  I think you posted with a set agenda in mind and are on a Bujinkan bash spree here.  

You don't like the training you are getting, shut the **** up about it and move on.  That is my advice.  

Oh yeah, for future slams it is *POMPOUS*.


Jeeze, yet another one on the Ninjutsu boards, just what we need.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-
*


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## jks9199

Alan Witty said:


> I see this come up over and over again in posts here and elsewhere.  I think that the issue is not with the material but how it is taught.  Also, the mind set of the instructor. What is the instructor trying to convey?  The ones I have trained with drill the Waza or concept and than rapidly move to application in a variety of settings and against a variety of attacks at varying speed.
> 
> They also looked at the concepts in light of various other fighting arts that they had studied or if need be reviewed for that series of lessons. I do the same.  On Tuesday, driven a bit by the knife thread on Kutaki, we spent a whole class looking at the practical vs. the Dojo.  On Thursday we spent the whole night looking at escapes from a variety of grabs and attempts at takedowns.
> 
> Again, the mindset of the teacher sets the class. If you feel you need more "realistic than ask your teacher for a henka or variation on whatever you want to focus on.  A good instructor should be able to address it or be honest enough to say "Had not thought that through but I will and address it next class."



It also sounds like the people that he's trained with have fallen into a trap that afflicts a lot of people in various martial arts...  they don't really know how to train with a partner.  They can do a little dance, or they can "move around" but they can't really TRAIN.

I think Bujinkan training is similar to my own training in this regard; students first learn a technique either alone or with a partner.  Everything is slow, the partner cooperates 100%, and it goes beautifully.  Some people don't even get this right though, because the partner's distance is unrealistic or the strike isn't really thrown at the target.  Ranges have to be reasonable, and you've got to be in danger of being hit if you don't do things the right way -- or you're wasting your time.  At the start, as I said, the speeds are slow enough that there's no major risk...  But, then, you start speeding things up.  A lot of the time, unfortunately, I see the person doing the technique moving much faster than the person "feeding" it...  (If I recall the terms right, tore is moving faster than uke.)  OOPS...  there's that unreality again!  If your partner is moving at 1/2 speed, you can't go full speed!  But, as you develop competence & skill, you both speed things up; your partner starts throwing the initial strike a little differently, using a different hand, or a different step, and so on.  That's when you start getting into the "real" reality practice...  And that's when the last pitfall I'll address here shows up.  You stop doing the technique or principle you were practicing, and start doing "something else that fit the flow."  You'll never achieve real competence with THAT technique/kata/principle if you don't practice it...  You don't learn to play the piano by practicing the ukelele!


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## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Teach me more o-wise one.



Ok, first of all... lose the attitude. Not only does it make the moderator's job harder and convince people you are just here to cause trouble, but it also kills your chances of ever getting good at this art.

You will have to accept that with only a couple of years under your belt there is _nothing_ you have learned that I have not. But you would have to work hard for at least a decade to get close to understanding what I have experienced. Live with it. And if you make comments that are incorrect, those of us that know more than you will have to correct you so that your misguided views are not accepted as fact by the public at large.

Next, try working terms like "I don't know" into how you think, speak and  write. You sound less egotistical and pompis (sp)  if you do not try to state things as fact. There is a big difference between the terms "there is no difference between A and B" and "_I don't know_ of any differences between A and B." With the latter, you leave open the possibility that there is a difference, but you just do not know it. But the former tells folks that you will not accept that there is any way other than your own. And when you try telling a board of people that have been training since before you were born things they know are not true as if it was fact, you are not going to be welcomed with open arms.

Let me give some examples of what you said and how you should have said it.

Instead of,



> I know alot of what we do is because it's traditional,



it should read,



> *I don't know* (can't think) of any reason we do certain things other than possibly it is because it  is tradition.



and 



> for example when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional, unless there's many people walking around in samurai armor.



should read,



> *I don't know* of any application for age uchi other than in regards to armor.



continuing on, 



> But in a real situation, it just happens to fast.



should be,



> *I don't know* how to do it in a real situation yet because it seems too fast to me and the way I am looking at the problem.



You see! If you consider the above instead of trying to tell us how much you already know, you might learn something from this board. Of course, you really need to learn from a teacher. Maybe yours is good, maybe he is bad. After over a decade of living in Japan, I have seen a lot of American teachers roll through that don't seem to be up to snuff with what I am learning. But if your teacher is the type that  will admit that he is wrong and he is continuing to keep going to those that know more than him in the Bujinkan (and those guys do the same) then I think that even the bad teachers will have the chance to gain a deeper understanding than they do now.

But the other type, the type you are in danger of becomming, are the types to state what they believe as fact with little understanding of the true situation. They will not empty their cups and when told they need more insight they reject things, storm off and set up their own little empires. One good example of that  type of person is Rick Tew. Go ahead and do a search here and see what the opinion of him is.

In short, if you take the attitude that you *don't know* how to apply what you do to a real situation, then you stand on the edge of learning how to. But if you state that what we do is not applicable, then you close your mind to the answers before you ever get a chance. You don't know how to use this stuff in a real situation. That does not mean that noone else can possibly know or do it. Look deeper at the problem and consider a good long time before you state certain things as fact.

I hope you enjoyed and gained from this little lesson you asked for.


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## exile

I think that Don's immediately preceding tutorial on how to take advantage of the board's knowledge to help fill in gaps in your own, and jks' nice pithy sketch of how to make the move from the image of the tech in your mind to real time application in a variety of circumstances, are two of the best posts I've ever read on _any_ discussion board.


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## bydand

exile said:


> I think that Don's immediately preceding tutorial on how to take advantage of the board's knowledge to help fill in gaps in your own, and jks' nice pithy sketch of how to make the move from the image of the tech in your mind to real time application in a variety of circumstances, are two of the best posts I've ever read on _any_ discussion board.



Agree 100%


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## Alan Witty

jks9199 said:


> But, then, you start speeding things up. A lot of the time, unfortunately, I see the person doing the technique moving much faster than the person "feeding" it... (If I recall the terms right, tore is moving faster than uke.) OOPS... there's that unreality again! If your partner is moving at 1/2 speed, you can't go full speed! But, as you develop competence & skill, you both speed things up; your partner starts throwing the initial strike a little differently, using a different hand, or a different step, and so on. That's when you start getting into the "real" reality practice... And that's when the last pitfall I'll address here shows up. You stop doing the technique or principle you were practicing, and start doing "something else that fit the flow." You'll never achieve real competence with THAT technique/kata/principle if you don't practice it... You don't learn to play the piano by practicing the ukelele!


 

That is why you need an instructor.  I think of that role as not only teaching but also facillitating.  An instructor is not much use if he or she is not observing, correcting and redirecting all work back to the core concept and if necessary going back to the initial WAZA and reviewing if need be.  All focus needs to be on seeing the student doing the technique correctly and the application correctly. Demonstrate, observe, correct, reinforce. IMHO.


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## magic.man.joe

I agree with Don, but would also like to add that doing the basics makes the *IDEA *of the moves as Soke' puts it "no mind". I've been training in the Bujinkan since 1986 on and off and I'm glad to train with people that are just starting and those that are of higher rank than my self. We all contribute some knowledge to the whole. The truth of the matter is you should ask your Sensei the question you asked on this board he/she would be better suited to give you your answer.


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## Ronnin

Okay Don read my post again please. I said my dojo, and those in my area based on those I've spoken to. You seem to be a knowledgeable guy, being in Japan and all, also you seem to focus on my errors that don't sway my post. You're spending time on what I should've said, or how to say it instead of my post. I hate to bring this up because it's been done to death, but really think about it ego free (I'm not just speaking to Don here) why aren't any of the Kans in MMA? Really. That's what happens on the street (FOR DON !!) *IN MY EXPERIENCES !!!*  Really watch an MMA match, and compare how you would combat this. Their unconventual manner, speed, and aggression. These are things not delt with in my dojo. *OR THOSE IN MY AREA !!!!!!!!*


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> Okay Don read my post again please. I said my dojo, and those in my area based on those I've spoken to. You seem to be a knowledgeable guy, being in Japan and all, also you seem to focus on my errors that don't sway my post. You're spending time on what I should've said, or how to say it instead of my post. I hate to bring this up because it's been done to death, but really think about it ego free (I'm not just speaking to Don here) why aren't any of the Kans in MMA? Really. That's what happens on the street (FOR DON !!) *IN MY EXPERIENCES !!!* Really watch an MMA match, and compare how you would combat this. Their unconventual manner, speed, and aggression. These are things not delt with in my dojo. *OR THOSE IN MY AREA !!!!!!!!*


 
1. No, what they're doing is not what happens in the street. Basically because it's happening within a ring or octagon, they're both unarmed as well as similarly prepared and trained, and their buddies aren't allowed to join in to up the ante for the losing part.

2. Tips for reading: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html


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## Ronnin

Nimravus said:


> 1. No, what they're doing is not what happens in the street. Basically because it's happening within a ring or octagon, they're both unarmed as well as similarly prepared and trained, and their buddies aren't allowed to join in to up the ante for the losing part.
> 
> 2. Tips for reading: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html


 
I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea. I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here. There are all the big name Jujutsu and MMA schools here. Gracie, No Limits, sections of Militige Camp, and the list goes on. So over here it's pretty close to what you see on TV. If you go to a bar or something, you have a good chance of finding out how good you are. I will read your link.


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## bencole

Ronnin said:
			
		

> *OR THOSE IN MY AREA !!!!!!!!*


 
Where do you live? 



Ronnin said:


> why aren't any of the Kans in MMA?


 
I personally have no interest in MMA. I am interested in what Hatsumi-sensei can do. Granted, there are some people in the Bujinkan who *ARE* interested: Sean Askew and David Dow both do MMA and think it rocks!



			
				Ronnin said:
			
		

> That's what happens on the street (FOR DON !!) *IN MY EXPERIENCES !!!*




Really? No weapons? No friends? No barstools or salt shakers? No glass or broken concrete on the ground? 

MMA looks *NOTHING* like what I or my friends have see in the real world....



			
				Ronnin said:
			
		

> Really watch an MMA match, and compare how you would combat this.




The same way I would handle a crazed crack head, a jerk in a bar, or a drunk uncle at a wedding. Using the same principles that Don is hoping that you will come to recognize before tossing the art aside.



			
				Ronnin said:
			
		

> when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional


 
So let's go back to Age Uchi for a moment.... You say you understand the movement and Don says that you don't (as evidenced by your post).

Have you figured out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the Bo? 

If not, you do not understand the movement of Age Uchi. This is Don's point. 

Instead of raising your voice to Don, why don't you actually go to the dojo, and try to do Age Uchi without a bo. Then have your uke really try to take your head off with a good old "one-two," and use Age Uchi against them (again without a bo).

Then come back and tell us what you've figured out.... 

Cheers!

-ben


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## bencole

Ronnin said:


> I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea. I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here.


 
Sorry, we crossed posted there. I know now that you are in OC.

Why not go train with David Dow? He's just down the street from you.

Another alternative is Dan Weidman. He's also in L.A.

-ben


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea.


 
If by this you mean consensual fights, in which both people had the opportunity to leave but chose not to, I agree. The solution to this is simply to make a choice not to move in.



Ronnin said:


> I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here. There are all the big name Jujutsu and MMA schools here. Gracie, No Limits, sections of Militige Camp, and the list goes on. So over here it's pretty close to what you see on TV. If you go to a bar or something, you have a good chance of finding out how good you are. I will read your link.


 
I have bad news for you - you're not going to be able to beat any of the big names in MMA any time soon, at least not bare-handed (hint hint), by emulating their practice methods or otherwise.


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## Ronnin

bencole said:


> Sorry, we crossed posted there. I know now that you are in OC.
> 
> Why not go train with David Dow? He's just down the street from you.
> 
> Another alternative is Dan Weidman. He's also in L.A.
> 
> -ben


 
I would love to find him.
No I don't know Age Uchi without the Bo, that's my point. The dojo training !! Why does nobody understand that? It's unfortunate that some dojo's teach some things and others do not.


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## Rook

Ronnin, I'm going to make a suggestion.  

I hardly ever post in this forum and rarely read it in.  It appears that your prefered method of being taught, of training, and of discussing ideas is a poor fit for the teaching, training and discussing ideas in BBT and probably several other arts.  Its my personal advice that you consider switching arts to one that fits your preferances better.  Training halls never change their methods because of one person and only rarely because of pressure from many people.   Rather than trying to change the system, you should consider switching to a system that suits you already.


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## Rubber Tanto

As many here will know, my Bujinkan Dojo has sparring, pressure testing and resistance training as part of its syllabus, and I am a big advocate of all schools using these in Bujinkan training...but this does not mean that we have thrown kata to the wayside.

In fact, I find kata of great importance and I have had this discussion before with people who think the kata is telling us HOW we should be fighting when (IMO) its how we should be MOVING when we fight. It is not telling us that when someone throws a punch we MUST do a taki yori...but showing us that if ever the opportunity arises to use a taki yori, we will know HOW to do one.

Ronnin, think of the kata as the uke being a punching bag that walks, steps forward, throws punches and falls/flips/stumbles/etc like a human.

To me, that's all it is.

As tori, (IMO) you are getting this person (yes at times compliant) as a dummy to practice what you are learning. I would say that getting a white belt to pull off a muso dori on a fully resistant opponent might make for much frustration, yes? So hence, the kata is the place to figure out 1) the technique, 2) the distance and timing 3) the balance (yours and uke) and 4) the force, movement required to pull it off.

It can be up to you, once you feel comfortable with what ever kata you are looking at, to get your uke to raise the speed, resistance for you.

The other thing is that many think that when uke throws that famous "lunge punch" that you as uke are learning to punch/strike like that. Not so. You learn to punch strike as tori... have you ever noticed that as tori your punches, shutos etc aren't lunging strikes?

Once again... uke is just a breathing punching bag.

If you really liked your bujinkan training (technique wise) but felt that you were not getting the realism you wanted, you could always just suss out which of your fellow students feel the same way and agree to spar with them after class. You would be amazed how much you could learn here, and that as people watched, would want to join. At my dojo, the group became big enough to make a whole class out of it. It's not rocket science.


----------



## saru1968

Rubber Tanto said:


> taki yori


 

?

Grilled meat?


----------



## Rubber Tanto

LOL
Please don't tell me that all you absorbed out of my post was my bad spelling of japanese words?

Though now I'm hungry!


----------



## Ronnin

Rubber Tanto said:


> As many here will know, my Bujinkan Dojo has sparring, pressure testing and resistance training as part of its syllabus, and I am a big advocate of all schools using these in Bujinkan training...but this does not mean that we have thrown kata to the wayside.
> 
> In fact, I find kata of great importance and I have had this discussion before with people who think the kata is telling us HOW we should be fighting when (IMO) its how we should be MOVING when we fight. It is not telling us that when someone throws a punch we MUST do a taki yori...but showing us that if ever the opportunity arises to use a taki yori, we will know HOW to do one.
> 
> Ronnin, think of the kata as the uke being a punching bag that walks, steps forward, throws punches and falls/flips/stumbles/etc like a human.
> 
> To me, that's all it is.
> 
> As tori, (IMO) you are getting this person (yes at times compliant) as a dummy to practice what you are learning. I would say that getting a white belt to pull off a muso dori on a fully resistant opponent might make for much frustration, yes? So hence, the kata is the place to figure out 1) the technique, 2) the distance and timing 3) the balance (yours and uke) and 4) the force, movement required to pull it off.
> 
> It can be up to you, once you feel comfortable with what ever kata you are looking at, to get your uke to raise the speed, resistance for you.
> 
> The other thing is that many think that when uke throws that famous "lunge punch" that you as uke are learning to punch/strike like that. Not so. You learn to punch strike as tori... have you ever noticed that as tori your punches, shutos etc aren't lunging strikes?
> 
> Once again... uke is just a breathing punching bag.
> 
> If you really liked your bujinkan training (technique wise) but felt that you were not getting the realism you wanted, you could always just suss out which of your fellow students feel the same way and agree to spar with them after class. You would be amazed how much you could learn here, and that as people watched, would want to join. At my dojo, the group became big enough to make a whole class out of it. It's not rocket science.


 
I understand what you are saying, and I'll try to look at it that way. And yes, most people will just get the tiny little mistakes


----------



## jks9199

Ronnin said:


> I know it's not exactly what you see on UFC happens on the street, but it's the basic idea. I don't know about you guys but I'm in the Orange County area where it's the Jujutsu HQ over here. There are all the big name Jujutsu and MMA schools here. Gracie, No Limits, sections of Militige Camp, and the list goes on. So over here it's pretty close to what you see on TV. If you go to a bar or something, you have a good chance of finding out how good you are. I will read your link.


And you're basing your concept of a "real" fight on what experience?

I've been in real street fights where the people REALLY didn't want to go to jail, and where they were willing to do anything to avoid it.  NOTHING is perfect preparation for that.  I've been lucky; I've never been in a situation where I was outnumbered (or at least, not for long).  But that could change tomorrow.  I've found that sound principles, practiced in the manner I've already described got me through it.  Interestingly enough, that same basic approach is what was (and is) used by the defensive tactics instructors at the academy.  Practice it easy the first few times, then ramp up the difficulty and variations once the basic idea is picked up.  Maybe there's something to it...  Maybe there's something to ways of training for combat that have lasted for varying numbers of centuries, as well.  After all, somebody sure lived to tell about it!

Someone else already noted that you seem unhappy; I suggest that perhaps you need to shop around some.  You're lucky; there are literally tons of martial arts schools, ranging from huge commercial operations to one guy teaching a buddy or two in his backyard or garage, in California.  Do some hunting and find somewhere that you'll be happy.  Life's too short to invest the time it takes for even halfway serious martial arts training in something you don't enjoy, no matter what others think of it.  (You might also check out Peyton Quinn at rmcat.com, among several others.  I name Peyton 'cause I have some acquaintance with him; there are others who have good programs.)


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> also you seem to focus on my errors that don't sway my post.



No, I am cutting through to the areas that show your fundementially flawed outlook on the martial arts.

When you started off saying that we did things in the Bujinkan for traditions sake, you showed me that you did not understand what was going on and merely attributing it to tradition. When I told you you should try to understand things before you judge, you tried arguing that you really did know. Now you are talking about the UFC and such.  The mere fact that you mention it in the same thread as a discussion about real fights show that you really have no idea about the subject matter. If you want to prepare for that sport, then train for that sport. But after only a couple of years, you really do not know why we do certain things the way we do.

I see a lot of me a few decades ago in you. I grew out of it. I can't hold your actions against you if you do so as well. But I have seen what people with the attitude you show here end up as and it is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. You have the ability to change, but the first move is to acknowledge that you have no idea about what a real fight is all about and what is needed to train for it. When you start from there, you might find some answers. Indeed, you might find they were right there under your very nose. But if you insist that *you* know what you need to prepare for combat, you can imagine how egotistical that sounds to us that have more experience than you.


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> No, I am cutting through to the areas that show your fundementially flawed outlook on the martial arts.
> 
> When you started off saying that we did things in the Bujinkan for traditions sake, you showed me that you did not understand what was going on and merely attributing it to tradition. When I told you you should try to understand things before you judge, you tried arguing that you really did know. Now you are talking about the UFC and such.  The mere fact that you mention it in the same thread as a discussion about real fights show that you really have no idea about the subject matter. If you want to prepare for that sport, then train for that sport. But after only a couple of years, you really do not know why we do certain things the way we do.
> 
> I see a lot of me a few decades ago in you. I grew out of it. I can't hold your actions against you if you do so as well. But I have seen what people with the attitude you show here end up as and it is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. You have the ability to change, but the first move is to acknowledge that you have no idea about what a real fight is all about and what is needed to train for it. When you start from there, you might find some answers. Indeed, you might find they were right there under your very nose. But if you insist that *you* know what you need to prepare for combat, you can imagine how egotistical that sounds to us that have more experience than you.


 
I'm going to say this with the most respect so please understand that first.
You say I have no idea what a real fight is all about, and I have no idea how to train for it. Well, I don't hold anything against you because how can you know me. But let me tell you, I know a bit about a fight, and how to prepare for one. More importantly, I know how quickly things go VERY, VERY wrong, and you may be left with your thumb up your butt. I also believe in the motto which I lived by for 4 years "We train like we fight, fight like we train". This is from my 4 years at the 2nd Batt. 75th Ranger Reg. With combat tours, I believe I know a bit about a fight. The difference is I had to live it, and see it. It is also a thing to think about that all special forces around the globe train in the "MMA" style of defense. Yes even Japan. I have actually trained with them when the UN comes to Georgia for the "School of the Americas". Now don't tell me to go do MMA, I don't want to train MMA. It's not that I think our techniques don't work, it's just I don't think the "awareness" is taught enough. IN MY DOJO.


----------



## stephen

Rubber Tanto said:


> The other thing is that many think that when uke throws that famous "lunge punch" that you as uke are learning to punch/strike like that. Not so. You learn to punch strike as tori... have you ever noticed that as tori your punches, shutos etc aren't lunging strikes?
> 
> Once again... uke is just a breathing punching bag.



RT,

I really enjoy your posts. 

I do, however, respectfully disagree with this statement. I believe that many uke over-commit their attacks and end up in a bad position which makes it very easy for tori to respond. 

I look at uke/tori like this. Uke's job is to throw a good, solid attacks. This is his time to practice attacking. If tori is good enough he should be able to 'suck in' uke enough to bait him into that overcommitted position. I find that this is very difficult, but rewarding. I also find that I like to train kata in this way, with it being tori's job to provide the correct 'bait' at each point to make the kata happen.  

In essence, I see the uke's job as simply trying to attack well. It's tori's job to set up the distance, false openings, the 'terrain' in order to make the technique happen. 

As a drill, I often enjoy training this by starting kata or techniques from a far distance. Then, as one/both walk toward each other there will be a point where uke thinks that the distance and openings are correct to attack. I find that this distance is often much closer then first suspected.

If uke is not trying his best to attack with proper kamae then I don't see how tori will ever be able to train this skill/ability/sensivitity. 

I believe that if I do not train this way then I can't see how 50% of  my training is not teaching my body to make bad attacks with bad kamae. 

I find that as I and my friends in the dojo grow better together, the attacks become better. There are less openings and it becomes more difficult to get that 'connection', hopefully this increases my skill as well as I train to cope with an ever-increasing level of attack. 

Thanks for letting me ramble.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> But let me tell you, I know a bit about a fight, and how to prepare for one.



Oh? Have you ever had someone come out of an alley and try to stick a knife in you? How about being surrounded by thugs? You see, your experiences in the military does not carry over to hand to hand. You are far from the only person here who has been to the Benning school for boys. And if you think your miltary experiences carry over, you just do not know how wrong you are.

The problem is, you are trying to draw a map to a place you have never been before.

Unless you have been in a hand to hand situation that involves deadly weapons, how the heck are you suppossed to know what it is like and how to prepare for it? Some of the things you think are useless become neccesary, and some of the things you think would help get in the way.

So you are sitting down, without the experience of killing someone, and trying to say what is needed to prepare for a situation where you might have to. Guess how that sounds? Your talking about MMA and such as if he has relevance....how do you know that?

From your first post you talked about how we did our form of punching and training with it for tradition's sake. You are wrong. If you read the pages that Nimravus linked to, you can see how a person with experience with dealing with knife weilding thugs thinks about your MMA and sparring talk. Hey, I happen to believe that people need to spend more time working on awareness. I just happen to know that there are reasons for a lot of what we do in the Bujinkan that are not obvious at first. You learn certain things at certain points- not too early because that would ruin your later progress. A lot of things that have been tossed out of "traditional" martial arts by those that would "modernize," "Improve" or otherwise change the art actually are very important.

In short, you don't know what a knife fight is like and you do not have not the knowledge of what should be taught at what point. You need to ask more questions, take a closer look at what is behind the training and not declare that certain things are done for tradition's sake or are not usefull for combat training. If you get some police reports of you taking on attackers with deadly weapons, you might get more respect when you talk like that- not before.


----------



## Rook

Ronnin said:


> Now don't tell me to go do MMA, I don't want to train MMA. It's not that I think our techniques don't work, it's just I don't think the "awareness" is taught enough. IN MY DOJO.


 
Ronnin.  Everyone is telling you that BBT does not do what you are asking of it.  You dojo doesn't do what you are asking of it.  The art is not going to change, the dojo is not going to change, and if you have different expectations, you shouldn't change.  You may be better off training another art that has training practices in line with your expectations rather than trying to change the practices of the one that you are in now - even in that means having to learn different techniques.  Techniques are only as good as the practice that goes with them and the ultimate ability to use them against actual opponents. If you don't think you are getting it, you probably are right and its time to change schools or even change systems.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

stephen said:


> RT,
> 
> I really enjoy your posts.
> 
> I do, however, respectfully disagree with this statement. .


 
Hi Stephen.
Thanks for the kind words. With what you have replied with, I have no issue with and agree on much of it. BUT I do think you have not understood what I am talking about to a point



stephen said:


> I believe that many uke over-commit their attacks and end up in a bad position which makes it very easy for tori to respond.
> 
> I look at uke/tori like this. Uke's job is to throw a good, solid attacks. This is his time to practice attacking. If tori is good enough he should be able to 'suck in' uke enough to bait him into that overcommitted position. I find that this is very difficult, but rewarding. I also find that I like to train kata in this way, with it being tori's job to provide the correct 'bait' at each point to make the kata happen.
> 
> In essence, I see the uke's job as simply trying to attack well. It's tori's job to set up the distance, false openings, the 'terrain' in order to make the technique happen.


 
But if I was to be an attacking uke and "attack well" in kata, lets say we are working on Gansekinage...I would not step forward, but throw a jab/cross, forcing tori to commit to trying to capture the jab then trying to finish him with the cross to the chin. Now, as you say, _If tori is good enough he should be able to 'suck in' uke enough to bait me into that overcommitted position, _but now he can't because I haven't stepped forward. So even though there is plenty the Tori can do here, it is no longer about Gansekinage. Sure someone of higher skill can probably work it out from there but I think doing this to a low rank would be a fruitless exercise, yes?

So when I'm talking about kata, as in my line earlier.



> The other thing is that many think that when uke throws that famous "lunge punch" that you as uke are learning to punch/strike like that. Not so. You learn to punch strike as tori... have you ever noticed that as tori your punches, shutos etc aren't lunging strikes?
> 
> Once again... uke is just a breathing punching bag.


I am talking about pure kata without modification. I am not saying that uke should lunge, I am just naming the move under the label that the "skeptics" have given it. In truth, I am very against training in which people leave that punch out in the air to linger in the wind while tori moves. I believe that as a tori is more proficient, the punch should be pulled back if they are two slow. A tori should move fast enough so that uke does not need to sit there like a statue. A uke should move in proper kamae. 

In my dojo we start off a technique in very basic format (uke steps forward with punch, tori does whatever kata is)but we are allowed to evolve it as long as we don't go beyond or level of knowledge. (uke circle and strikes at random and tori does whatever kata is _while moving_ for example) We don't go past our own taijutsu. The same applies for our randori and pressure testing (which in my opinion is where uke tries his best to attack for both uke and tori to train skill/ability/sensivitity.) 

Does this make more sense?


----------



## bencole

Ronnin said:
			
		

> No I don't know Age Uchi without the Bo, that's my point. The dojo training !! Why does nobody understand that?


 
So you blame your teacher for the fact that you haven't spent time learning that you can do Age Uchi without the Bo.... (shake head)

So have you followed my advice and grabbed a training partner and tried to figure it out yet? Or do you expect your teacher to show you? Or do you expect me to show you?

You said that you knew the movement (and complained about its limitations with armor). If you know the movement, then you should be able to practice it as I've suggested.

Let me know when you do. 

_(Hint: It might help you to find what you are looking for if, when you ask a question, you take the answer and do something with the answer.)_

Here is just one example....



			
				[B said:
			
		

> bencole][/B]Why not go train with David Dow? He's just down the street from you.
> 
> Another alternative is Dan Weidman. He's also in L.A.


 


Ronnin said:


> I would love to find him.


 
Results *1* - *10* of about *1,100* for *david dow bujinkan*. (*0.41* seconds) 

Results *1* - *10* of about *1,040* for *daniel weidman bujinkan*. (*0.19* seconds) 

So rather than posting "I would love to find him," you could have done two things: (1) Googled the two of them and located them in a combined 1 full second! (2) Asked the person who recommended the teachers if he knew their contact information.

Instead, you allow other people's posts (and your ego that you "know real fighting") to detract you from what *SUPPOSEDLY* was your complaint--that in your dojo and the dojo nearby, you cannot find the training you are looking for....

So why not just spend the day *NOT POSTING* and instead follow up on the two points that have been raised for you: (1) See if you can figure out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the bo (and *WITHOUT* your teacher) and (2) Find David or Dan?

It's just a suggestion.

-ben


----------



## Rubber Tanto

bencole said:


> So why not just spend the day *NOT POSTING* and instead follow up on the two points that have been raised for you: (1) See if you can figure out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the bo (and *WITHOUT* your teacher) and (2) Find David or Dan?
> 
> It's just a suggestion.
> 
> -ben


 
Dear God...did I just nod my head in agreement with Ben?
*Nick grabs his tanto and commits seppuke!*

(lucky it's rubber)


----------



## stephen

Rubber Tanto said:


> Hi Stephen.
> Thanks for the kind words. With what you have replied with, I have no issue with and agree on much of it. BUT I do think you have not understood what I am talking about to a point.



It's hard with the written medium; I was pretty sure I wasn't getting the whole picture. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> But if I was to be an attacking uke and "attack well" in kata, lets say we are working on Gansekinage...I would not step forward, but throw a jab/cross, forcing tori to commit to trying to capture the jab then trying to finish him with the cross to the chin.



Now this is where the discussion gets tricky! As we try to talk about things that are difficult to talk about, so please forgive me if I'm not clear or if I misunderstand your position. 

The first thing that pops to my mind is that I would worry that my distance is too close if uke can throw a jab/cross and not have to step. I always try to train in such a way that I can learn to manipulate the distance to cause a feeling of 'immediacy' in the uke. I feel that if I'm toe-to-toe there's no way GSN is coming from a jab, I would feel like I needed to create more distance or space to be able to work in first. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> I am talking about pure kata without modification. I am not saying that uke should lunge, I am just naming the move under the label that the "skeptics" have given it. In truth, I am very against training in which people leave that punch out in the air to linger in the wind while tori moves. I believe that as a tori is more proficient, the punch should be pulled back if they are two slow. A tori should move fast enough so that uke does not need to sit there like a statue. A uke should move in proper kamae.



Well it seems that we share many opinions in common! Interestingly, I've found that when training with people much better than I, it doesn't matter if I try to pull the punch back or not. They seem to be able to make me unable to recover by having better balance/distance/timing/whatever-it-is-that-makes-them-good! This is what I'm trying to emulate. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> Does this make more sense?




Yes. Thanks!


----------



## Rubber Tanto

stephen said:


> Interestingly, I've found that when training with people much better than I, it doesn't matter if I try to pull the punch back or not. They seem to be able to make me unable to recover by having better balance/distance/timing/whatever-it-is-that-makes-them-good! This is what I'm trying to emulate.


 
yes! eaxctly. I've sparred with people who just seem to fall for some of my methods of wearing them down time and time again, but then there are people at my dojo like Matt, a really talanted nidan who just shuts me down on all fronts with really fluid flanking and and distance/balance taking. His strikes are are with clinical precision and he never looks stressed. It is people like this that keep me going.

(though I do hit harder!  )


----------



## KageMusha

Ronnin said:


> It is also a thing to think about that all special forces around the globe train in the "MMA" style of defense. Yes even Japan.



A friend of mine just got out the the SEAL's 2 years ago.  They did a simplified version of Yoshin Ryu JuJutsu.  Not MMA.  I am not saying that some special forces don't do MMA, but to say ALL is a little broad.


----------



## KageMusha

Rook said:


> Ronnin. Everyone is telling you that BBT does not do what you are asking of it. You dojo doesn't do what you are asking of it. The art is not going to change, the dojo is not going to change, and if you have different expectations, you shouldn't change. You may be better off training another art that has training practices in line with your expectations rather than trying to change the practices of the one that you are in now - even in that means having to learn different techniques. Techniques are only as good as the practice that goes with them and the ultimate ability to use them against actual opponents. If you don't think you are getting it, you probably are right and its time to change schools or even change systems.




This is what I did, and I couldnt be happier.  I trained in Karate/Kickboxing that has some MMA styed training for over 10 years.  I wanted something that accually teaches combat, not sport.  I tried Kali, then JuJutsu.  I eventually found Budo TaiJutsu and it is EXACTLY what I was looking for.  I am in the exact oppisite mindset you are in Roninn.  But the differance is this:  People are telling you that Bujinkan way is better, I accually see it.  I would say try other arts, no one will blame you IF you end up comeing back to the Bujinkan someday.  And you don't have to think you waisted time either.  You would never have known what you needed without doing it.  Time enjoyed waisting, was not waisted.


----------



## bencole

[B said:
			
		

> Rubber Tanto][/B]In truth, I am very against training in which people leave that punch out in the air to linger in the wind while tori moves. I believe that as a tori is more proficient, the punch should be pulled back if they are two slow. A tori should move fast enough so that uke does not need to sit there like a statue. A uke should move in proper kamae.


 


stephen said:


> Interestingly, I've found that when training with people much better than I, it doesn't matter if I try to pull the punch back or not.


 
People unfortunately seem to think that the technique is only for the tori to learn....

There is a reason why the uke keeps his arm out when he punches in the Bujinkan. It is important to not toss aside this lesson just because other people do not punch like that. 

You can still have "alive training" and be the attacker with the arm out. Rather than tossing the practice aside because it seems "antiquated" or "not real," why not try to make it real through practice?

You should be able to throw a punch, then with that hand still out there, generate enough power through your use of spine, knees, hips and and so on to knock the tori on his backside *WITHOUT* retracting the arm (not to mention all the nasty grabs, tears, etc. that are available). The same principle drives the "thrusting power" of knives, for example. You should not need to have to retract the arm if your initial attack was evaded by the tori. Then move to swords and notice the same thing. Then naginata. Then rope. Etc. etc.

This point is *VERY* important to growth in the art, imo. Naturally, for this to work, you must have perfect alignment, relaxed muscles and so on.

Try to work that aspect of Bujinkan power generation into your training as an uke. It works irrespective of "compliant" or "non-compliant" partners.

-ben


----------



## Dale Seago

Ronnin said:


> It is also a thing to think about that all special forces around the globe train in the "MMA" style of defense. Yes even Japan.



Here's an article by the head of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) which I feel is very relevant here:



> *LET'S  ROLL???*​ *The Realities of Armored and  Weapons Grappling*
> 
> Lieutenant Colonel G.  H. Bristol, USMC
> I still speak to a lot  of young Marines about the MCMAP.  I still see them get excited about their  first belt; the first time they spar; and the first time they do a technique and  it works.  Like them, I remember a lot of firsts, and, most of all, my  first combative love:  JUDO.  I have had a longstanding affair with  Judo - I just passed 38 years of training.   I still have my  competition medals; old judogi; bad knees; and great memories.  I would not  change a thing.
> However, realities of  life have brought to light the weakness of sport grappling.  When I was 14,  I was stabbed "shooting in" to take another guy down in  Providence,  Rhode  Island.  Cut badly, I  backed up, picked up a piece of wood, and proceeded to beat the guy to a  pulp.  Why didn't I pick up the board first?  Later, as a Marine, I  saw combat and realized that - with all the gear that we need to survive on a  battlefield - grappling would never be the action of choice.  Had I wasted  all those years?
> The answer is no, but  the MCMAP - and in particular its Instructor population - must "come to grips"  (to use a Judo term) with its grappling emphasis and method of  instruction.  More than any other excess, Marines want to learn how to  "roll."  It is a fact that the oldest form of male bonding is  WRESTLING.  As young men, sooner of later we begin to grapple with each  other; it is sort of a "king of the hill" experience.  Male animals -  during the competition for mating - engage in rough grappling prior to choosing  up a mate.  These tendencies - and the tremendous explosion of grappling  and mixed martial arts in mainstream media - have brought grappling to a new  level of interest.
> The MCMAP - to  be viable as a Corps culture entity long-term - must first and foremost maintain  its applicability on today's - and tomorrow's - battlefield.  Grappling -  while first among equals as a sport, a conditioning exponent, and a bonding  agent - can become an end in itself and more importantly, a bad habit in real  close-in fighting.  We are not training Marines to be UFC participants; we  are training them for functional efficiency and dominance on a  battlefield.
> The following  essay deals with the realities of grappling training, transmission, and  application.
> * THE  ENVIRONMENT*
> Sport grappling  is conducted in a controlled environment.  While that environment is rough,  hard, and demanding, it is constructed to even up the participants.  There  are weight classes, rules of what can and cannot be executed, time limits, and  safety apparatus (mats, referees, etc) to ensure the conduct of a match is  executed within established parameters.  I have lost count of the different  mixed martial arts (UFC/Shooto/Pancrase et al) that are all grappling  organizations.
> At the other end  of the spectrum is a battlefield:  an uncontrolled environment.  If  two Marines were somehow unarmed and placed in a battlefield situation against  one opponent, they could charge him - together; fish hook him and eye gouge him;  pick him up and smash him head first on the pavement; and them stomp him to  death with their boots.  The "contest" would be completely  fair.
> 
> *THE  EXPONENTS*
> 
> I wrote a speech  once entitled "All Life's Lessons are Learned in a  Wrestling Room."  It remains one of the toughest environments on  earth.  Well conditioned, motivated, and dedicated men push, pull, run,  lift, and fall - and then cut weight.  It provides an iron will and the  ability to bear pain and accept victory and defeat on a minute-by-minute  basis.  Many of them are in a closed social nexus; it remains a cloistered  world.  One of my closest friends - legendary  Iowa wrestler Joel  Sharratt - told me once that "wrestling - at any level - is a total commitment  where everything comes second.  You eat and breathe it..."  When I am  interviewing Marines for Recon, if they tell me they have wrestled, I will  always give them a shot because of this intensity.
> Marines - and I  am speaking about the Corps at large - are dedicated individuals as well.   However, they rarely get the time to practice their PRIMARY discipline:   Rifleman.  To even suggest that they would have the time to conduct the  arduous specificity that grapplers must endure is simply ridiculous.  If  anything, the combative training piece must be tailored to give them the most  application in the least amount of time.
> *THE "X"  FACTOR*
> Additionally,  the "X" factor is the fact that Marines will rarely - if ever - find an unarmed  situation on a battlefield in which sport-style grappling techniques will work  without modification.  There will be a weapon, a piece of terrain, or a  conditioning dilemma as well to blur the purity of the single leg takedown, the  counter to the guard, or one of the many situational responses  (counter/submission, etc.) found in numerous grappling systems  today.
> Experienced  grapplers can probably weather the storm more readily.  An elite level  wrestler or grappler can "subdue" unarmed opponents because of high-level  repetition.  Likewise, their major strength - aggression and lack of fear  of contact - makes them good candidates for the transition to weapons-based  systems.  But to think that teaching a Marine hours of grappling - on a mat  with wrestling shoes - will make him effective on a battlefield by hitting the  ground is a bad habit that will cost lives.
> *ELIMINATE THE THREAT-PROTECT THE FORCE-ACCOMPLISH  THE *MISSION
> I believe strongly  that the answer lies in Weapons-based grappling.  In the past, MCMAP  training has included some back-to-back, "go for the knife" engagements that  place some reality in close-in fighting.  The scenario always plays out the  same:  the Marine who gets the knife goes wild trying to cut and then  Marine who doesn't attempts to keep the knife away.  The knife-wielder is  super-aggressive and the unarmed opponent is super-defensive.  It is a  great reality trainer.
> I would offer to  the MCMAP Instructor community to take it further, using these points as a  guideline:
> 1)      Begin all grappling at standing  from a distance of 20 or more feet apart
> 2)       Use a combination of weapons (rifle/knife/stick) in dissimilar fashion (IE, one  Marine armed with a rifle, one unarmed; one Marine with a knife, one with a  stick,   etc.)
> 3)       Use full combat gear (to include helmet)
> 4)       Do not train this grappling on a mat - always train it  outdoors
> 5)       Conduct the engagement after a brief (but intense) physical event (an Obstacle  Course run is perfect)
> I have conducted  this training at 3d Reconnaissance Battalion on several occasions.  I have  concluded the following from a GRAPPLING perspective:
> 1)      Going to close-in fighting armed  with a weapon teaches the Marine distancing, timing, and targeting to end an  engagement before it comes to "Let's wrestle"
> 2)       There is much more of a tendency (after going to the ground once or twice) to  use techniques such as the leg sweep (or at the very least off-balancing  techniques) to get the opponent to fall - hard - and not fall yourself.   The Marines realize that if they "tie up" with weapons that they must execute  immediately and not spend time "gripping" with each other
> 3)       Fatigue will allow the Marine to be much more eager to end an engagement  quickly, thus saving him from harm (of any level)
> 4)       I have allowed multiple Marines to go against a single opponent.  I have  NEVER seen a ground fight from one of these situations other than the opponent  being beaten to his knees
> 5)       Marines understand better the brutal nature of this type of fighting and use  their weapons to end an engagement from proper engagement  distance
> *NO MORE  GRAPPLING???*
> I approach my  fourth decade as a grappler with that same love for the sport I had as a  boy.  I still like to get on a mat and go through some takedown drills or  mat work (I even like to hit the sauna to "shed a few" on occasion!).  I  believe that grappling can be a tremendous conditioner; a motivator; and a  bonding experience for Marines.  I propose the following for "Grappling  CONDITIONING for Marines":
> 1)       MAIs/MAITs should view/participate in a wrestling practice run by a high  school/college          coach (Joel Sharratt is my  ideal)
> 2)       Emphasize MOVEMENT, MOBILITY, and BASIC TIE-UP, TAKEDOWN, and GROUND CONTROL -  nothing fancy.
> 3)       Stress REPETITION and CHANGING PARTNERS
> 4)       Limit the "Choke Hold Number 74" thing for small groups.  Most of the  non-grapplers will never do these fancy techniques enough to ever make them work  anyway.
> 5)       Place some calisthenics, tumbling, and plyometric movement into the  mix.
> 6)       Use college-wrestling videos to motivate Marines to train with enthusiasm.   One of the greatest is DAN GABLE - COMPETITOR SUPREME.
> 7)       Use the sauna - a wrestling staple - for a post workout-bonding agent.  Due  it safely!
> 8)       Don't do it too often.  Keep Marines motivated to do it, but stress the  realities of weapons.  90% of the "grappling program" should be  weapons-based grappling.
> I have never  heard of a battle being won with a "high crotch" or a submission hold.  A  rifle and bayonet has carried the day for the Corps "in every clime and  place."  The reality is that Marines will do what they think is fun before  they will do what is hard.  Grappling - with all its effort - fun.   Killing is not.  The MCMAP must remain functional, not strive to be popular  nor allow itself to wander from its basic endeavor:  AN INTEGRATED FIGHTING  SYSTEM FOR ALL MARINES.
> 
> (https://www.tbs.usmc.mil/Pages/MA/media/docs/docs/LET'S ROLL.htm)


----------



## DWeidman

bencole said:


> Results *1* - *10* of about *1,040* for *daniel weidman bujinkan*. (*0.19* seconds)
> 
> So rather than posting "I would love to find him," you could have done two things: (1) Googled the two of them and located them in a combined 1 full second! (2) Asked the person who recommended the teachers if he knew their contact information.
> 
> ...So why not just spend the day *NOT POSTING* and instead follow up on the two points that have been raised for you: (1) See if you can figure out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the bo (and *WITHOUT* your teacher) and (2) Find David or Dan?
> 
> It's just a suggestion.
> 
> -ben



Or just ask me on here -- and I can PM you my contact information (or just email me at Daniel @ TenChiJinDojo.com 

;-)

-Daniel Weidman


----------



## KageMusha

DWeidman said:


> Or just ask me on here -- and I can PM you my contact information (or just email me at Daniel @ TenChiJinDojo.com
> 
> ;-)
> 
> -Daniel Weidman




But that would make sence.......


----------



## shinbushi

Same here david@labudo.com


----------



## bencole

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Or just ask me on here -- and I can PM you my contact information (or just email me at Daniel @ TenChiJinDojo.com


 


shinbushi said:


> Same here david@labudo.com


 
LOL! 

That could work as well.... 

-ben


----------



## makoto-dojo

Hello,

I understand your question. It is one I had for some time myself. Your question was open and not kan-specific so that is why I am piping in. I know you train in a Bujinkan school, but maybe some of what I say might help regardless.

It may help you to know a bit about my background. I trained in martial arts since age 5 and am 39 now (40 in April L ) My Father and all of his 4 brothers were war veterans, either Korea or Vietnam , my grandfathers on both sides were WW2 combat vets. Only my father had seen limited action. It would not be too far from the truth to call them all flag waving red necks our house being ultra right wing republican as I was growing up. (although that changed over the years and my parents became Democrat) 

My dads family came from near poverty in rural Kentucky until his father came into some money by owning a truck company working for the coal mines (they all worked in the mines at some time, black lung was something many of their friends had) They came up hard, with hard work and beatings, my dad until he died had marks on his back from switches (any of you know what that is? Then you share my childhood nightmare..) and barber belt straps.

As hard as they worked, they partied harder! All of them during their teenage years got into lots of trouble. Only my Father and one brother overcame it all and became educated went far in their jobs and became well respected in society, my Father being very politically involved, we had various mayors and police chiefs over for dinner. Dennis Kucinich is still a family friend, and even came to see my father here at the house days before he died. I am very proud of my Dad and where he came from and what he has overcome. But I digress

His other brothers didnt do so well, they stayed in that world of drink, guns and fighting. During childhood, I was either witness to many bad situations, or heard about many incidents of murder. My cousin for example was shot in the head at a bar and killed; my uncle threw dynamite on the front porch of a house killing some people in retaliation for the beating death of one of my other uncles The list goes on

The male presence in my early life was one of intense testosterone. To be a man in my fathers house you had to do a few things:

1. Work you butt off and provide for your family.
2. Take no crap from anyone, ever period.
3. Not be afraid of anything, face all things head on.

I was indoctrinated into this thinking from birth. My mother on the other hand was very passive (who else could live with such a good intentioned but super nova type A personality that was my Dad) My mother taught me to walk away from fights, to read all I could, to go to church, get an education etc. Basically the yin to my Dads yang..



My Grandmother on my Mothers side also lived with us and was a very kind fun loving person. Those two forces really were essential in helping to balance me out, without their guidance, my life would be very different now

My first martial arts training was at age 5 under one of my uncles (one who was in Nam and also in prison) he taught me what he called kenpo the whole idea was to teach me how to fight if someone wanted to try to mess with me and learn to be a man I remember at age five him telling me that if the kid was bigger than me to grab a brick and smash him upside his damn head.

This uncle didnt ever stay around long on his visits as he and my Dad didnt get on well. I then went on to study Shaolin at an inner city school I was the only white kid there, and my first few months were very hard because of that, I was finally accepted as alright This school was very old school DEEP stances, tam tui (look it up) and LOTS of sparring, our sifu always said that you have to be able to fight or you are just dancing and he doesnt teach dancing. Sparring was very hard and people were hurt all the time. My mother wanted to take me out, but my dad said it would make a man out of me..

From this school I learned about effort, hard training, fighting and that there was a problem between blacks and whites at that time (mid 70s America) I had not known about there being problems with race until that school, but unfortunately I was to come to see that reality more and more as I grew up being witness (not involved thank God) to two of Clevelands worst gang race riots Warsaw pool and Morgana park. I seen bike chains, baseball bats, boards with nails in them, knives, brass knuckles etc.. It was bad and the scariest thing I had ever seen up till then.

My neighborhood was white. Polish, Slovak, east European... Even my Parents were victims of prejudice my dad being from Kentucky and my mom from Kansas, they were called hillbillies. Our first years there were hard. But my Dad being who is was, set them straight. That hillbilly stuff just didnt fly 

Around our little neighborhood was African Americans on two sides, and Hispanics on one side, and they wanted to move in, the old guard didnt want that and many bad things happened. My parents being from the south believe it or not were not raciest at all, my father brought home to diner many of his black friends and that wasnt appreciated much by some of our neighbors (Too bad for them)

I remember seeing black kids come in the neighborhood and the white kids chasing them and beating them up. I also remember going into Black neighborhoods with me friends and getting my butt kicked! It was a stupid time back then and we were stupid kids. But I learned allot about fighting (against more than one person and SURVIVING not always winning, but coming home) and I learned about people both the good and bad sides of our nature. (Because I am not going to continue with this, I want to note, that I now live in a neighborhood that is 85% Black 10% white and 5% Hispanic. I have dated black girls, have many black friends and even my teacher is African American! One thing those early years taught me was NOT to be racist, we learned to see each other as people and not colors, much good can at times come from so much bad..)

My teenage years were full of fights; I was still under the impression that to be a man I should never take any crap from anyone and that lead to allot of fights. My martial arts training was always in Dojo that trained old school and sparred hard. I found JKD and that really made an impression on me. I also found ninjutsu a few years later (13) and really liked what I read (SKH) I had until the very early 90s mostly trained with SOI people and just took what I wanted from the training. I studied many arts; SOI was just one of them.

In the early 90s I went more mainstream Bujinkan, but was still unable to give it my whole heart, I still trained in JKD, BJJ etc. But near 1994 I decided to go for it full steam, I totally devoted myself to the training. At first I just went for it with total trust. But over time, I started to question things. Having been in so many fights, having seen so many bad things and having people close to me tell me straight out how to do bad things and what it felt like (Ill leave it at that) Having been a bouncer, working security, being a correction officer and having many, many years of hard sparring in all formats, I found myself having a hard time listening to these people who were supposed to be my teachers.

The things they said, and the way they trained... I just wasnt buying it. It just didnt wash clean There were a few times where I had to show these people what I meant and they had no answers They had high grades, but no answers. I had to wrestle with the idea that these arts (Takamatsu-Den) had been around for a long time, used in real battle etc. So what was the problem? Why was it that these teachers (shidoshi and above) didnt even have a clue regarding how to actually use their arts or teach others how to do it. All the people I ran into (for the most part) just did their art for some exercise, or historic cultural interest. Even if they were under the delusion that they were warriors

So, I started to doubt the whole art and lineage big time. You see people can say anything they want, but SHOW ME. Prove it to me For me personally I didnt come full circle until I met my current teachers and until I came to a more mature understanding of the whole things as well.

I know see that in my case, everything that I am taught has a reason, and the reason is explained to me. Not everything you do is for fighting, some things are to build a foundation for fighting ability. Some things to train your mind. Some, to train your spirit. The traditions I am involved in are REAL training, Mind body and Spirit! And it is not easy. I have finally been able to trust my teachers and lineage, but only because they have proven to me that what they are doing makes sense.

In my organization each piece I understand that each piece of the training is a piece of a greater puzzle, tanemura Sensei even does randori, he teaches us what to do against jabs and cross, against ground-fighting etc He has answered all of my questions and caused me to believe in him, so now I can trust him. Because I trust him, I can now learn

My advice to you is that takamatsu-den works, it is realistic and that you need to trust your teachers. But being in the bujinkan, you must realize, rank is NOT proof that the person knows what they are doing, or that they can teach. Part of your training is to be able to see who is good and bad. There are people in the Bujinkan who are VERY good, who can teach you what you want to learn. *You do not need MMA mixed in with the training*, but also, beware of people who mistake words and intellect with ability and understanding. If you keep looking you will find what you are looking for.

As I have pointed out, I came from a very interesting background, I understand violence in its many forms, I am the kind of person who has a VERY hard time accepting authority or being submissive. But even I have come to trust and open up, come to know that I dont have all the answers.

I have found my path; I have had all of my questions answered. I KNOW Takamatsu-Den is for real, I know it works, I know it is reality training in ALL of its forms. I also know that you too can come to know that for yourself, if you keep true to yourself and keep looking for that teacher with whom you can make a connection. Once you do that, open yourself up and trust. Thats the only way.

Look at the two videos at the top of this page these are people who have been there done that. I am talking life and death. Listen to them, notice how they train, what they feel is important. Arm yourself with truth and then get to work on the puzzle you will figure it out if you keep going. Even I did! And that is saying something LOL!

I wish you luck

Sincerely,


----------



## Seattletcj

bencole said:


> You can still have "alive training" and be the attacker with the arm out. Rather than tossing the practice aside because it seems "antiquated" or "not real," why not try to make it real through practice?



Have we agreed on what "alive" training means? 
If not, here is the definition most people use :
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053&q=straight+blast+gym



> You should be able to throw a punch, then with that hand still out there, generate enough power through your use of spine, knees, hips and and so on to knock the tori on his backside *WITHOUT* retracting the arm (not to mention all the nasty grabs, tears, etc. that are available). The same principle drives the "thrusting power" of knives, for example. You should not need to have to retract the arm if your initial attack was evaded by the tori.
> -ben


Speaking of alive, I wonder if you have tested this theory for real, in an alive scenario....as described in the above video. Leaving your arm hanging is fine if the other guy is "done attacking", or if it has already been determined you are going to eventually win. Otherwise you have lost a potential weapon and cannot use it as a shield eithor, and have potentially also given it as a gift to your opponent. If you can use it to grab and close the distance quick enough...ok, thats cool. But as a general rule, probably not a good tactic for most scenarios. 
Try it..."alive"....with someone who knows what they are doing, outside your dojo.


----------



## bencole

Seattletcj said:


> Leaving your arm hanging is fine if the other guy is "done attacking", or if it has already been determined you are going to eventually win.  Otherwise you have lost a potential weapon and cannot use it as a shield eithor


 
What precisely do you think a kamae, such as seigan no kamae, is supposed to be doing?

-ben


----------



## Seattletcj

bencole said:


> What precisely do you think a kamae, such as seigan no kamae, is supposed to be doing?
> -ben



I can tell we are not going to get anywhere with this. Short anwser, I dont think seigan is necessairly a fighting posture for all ranges and scenarios.
To say that punching and leaving your arm out in space is a good habit really boggles my mind. Especially when you, or he has a weapon.

I will say it again. Try it, "alive" with someone who knows what they are doing, and is not involved with an x-kan.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Bencole said:
			
		

> You should be able to throw a punch, then with that hand still out there, generate enough power through your use of spine, knees, hips and and so on to knock the tori on his backside *WITHOUT* retracting the arm (not to mention all the nasty grabs, tears, etc. that are available).


 
And you have tried this with a non-xcan experienced martial artist?

I'm only 5' 11" and train with weights every second day, weighing in at 92 kilos. I have been moving in and out of stances my whole life so I am a pretty stable guy when it comes to fighting and have the mass advantage to help keep me balanced. Everyone I have sparred with in the past years has commented how had it is to knock me over. My current sensei is the only exception and even he says that he would really want to "soften" me before he tried something like that.

I also have quite a bit of fight experience. And my ground skills are in no means something to laugh at.

Would you think it wise to leave a punch out in the air like that against someone with that kind of experience...I shudder to think what my sensei would do to me in randori if I left a limb out for him to grasp *closes eyes and see sensei smiling with glee at the opportunity.*

Perhaps that theory is best suited to new students and inexperienced attackers.


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## makoto-dojo

One thing I was trying to get at in my post, albeit subtly, was the truth that no one should listen to a teacher who teaches you what to do in situations they have never experienced. It is very silly! Maybe akin to someone who plays banjo telling you how to play violin in an orchestra and thinking he knows because he plays a string instrument. It doesnt wash.

The only way you will know how you will do against a non-X-kan martial artist is to get in there with one. Or find a teacher who has. How to use the art in war can only be taught by someone who has been in war, how to use the art for personal protection must be taught by someone in the field, Interested in how to use it in police work? Find cops who have used it and learn from them.

Many people in all martial arts fall into theory and conceptual traps, they prove these out with dead ukes who move as they are told and never fight back. In these situations you can come up with elaborate scenarios all of which work in that environment.

If you look at our kata you will see they are simple and fast and no fuss or muss. The more fancy you get the further away from reality you get. Those with eyes to see can see the people lost in the fantasy world of their own minds. Be careful who you trust with your training, rank, where they live, what org they are in all means nothing if they cannot back up with action what they say.

Martial arts are serious business, caveat emptor


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## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> Otherwise you have lost a potential weapon and cannot use it as a shield eithor, and have potentially also given it as a gift to your opponent.




The trojan horse was a gift too...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

makoto-dojo said:


> One thing I was trying to get at in my post, albeit subtly, was the truth that no one should listen to a teacher who teaches you what to do in situations they have never experienced.




When was the last time you trained with anyone who has faced a spearman while he had a sword?


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## Bigshadow

Just thought I would quote someone...  





> If we see differences, it is due to the narrowness of our vision.
> 
> This is like Mt Fuji's being being concealed by a tree this with branches and leaves and my not being able to see it.  But how can Mt Fuji be concealed by a single tree?  It is simply because of the narrowness of my vision and because the tree stands in the way of my vision that Mt. Fuji cannot be seen.  We go on thinking that the tree is concealing Mt. Fuji.  Yet it is due to the narrowness of my vision.
> 
> Not understanding the principles of things, people often put on knowing faces and criticize those that do understand.  And while they seem to be laughing at others, they are really laughing at themselves.  At least those who truly understand must think so. _-- Takuan Soho_


----------



## makoto-dojo

Nimravus said:


> [/color]
> 
> When was the last time you trained with anyone who has faced a spearman while he had a sword?


 
I have never trained with someone who has faced that situation in Battle. I have with people who had done such situations with wooden weapons in Dog brothers type situationsand I myself have such experience. Which of course is not the same thing.

However when I teach sword I do it for the art and the concentration training, and maybe even the ability to use in sparring situations. But I would never tell anyone I was teaching them how to really use a sword in combat. Because I myself don't have that experience.

Not sure what your point was, but I hope I answered your question...

Sincerely,


----------



## makoto-dojo

Bigshadow said:


> Just thought I would quote someone...


 
Great quote!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I recall having heard Arnaud Cousergue saying that although he's studied all kinds of Japanese sword schools, it was never until he met Hatsumi that he learned to use them for real.


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## Monadnock

Wow... I wonder why he said that.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Nimravus said:


> I recall having heard Arnaud Cousergue saying that although he's studied all kinds of Japanese sword schools, it was never until he met Hatsumi that he learned to use them for real.


 
Truly the Bujinkan style of sword work in Budo Taijutsu is simply amazing.  It is alive and free flowing and adaptive.  Hatsumi Soke is almost like a wizard with a sword and this comes from someone who has trained with multiple sword master's.

Even better is that this skill seems to be alive in other Budo Taijutsu practitioners and that truly is a beautiful thing!


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> Oh? Have you ever had someone come out of an alley and try to stick a knife in you? How about being surrounded by thugs? You see, your experiences in the military does not carry over to hand to hand. You are far from the only person here who has been to the Benning school for boys. And if you think your miltary experiences carry over, you just do not know how wrong you are.
> 
> The problem is, you are trying to draw a map to a place you have never been before.
> 
> Unless you have been in a hand to hand situation that involves deadly weapons, how the heck are you suppossed to know what it is like and how to prepare for it? Some of the things you think are useless become neccesary, and some of the things you think would help get in the way.
> 
> So you are sitting down, without the experience of killing someone, and trying to say what is needed to prepare for a situation where you might have to. Guess how that sounds? Your talking about MMA and such as if he has relevance....how do you know that?
> 
> From your first post you talked about how we did our form of punching and training with it for tradition's sake. You are wrong. If you read the pages that Nimravus linked to, you can see how a person with experience with dealing with knife weilding thugs thinks about your MMA and sparring talk. Hey, I happen to believe that people need to spend more time working on awareness. I just happen to know that there are reasons for a lot of what we do in the Bujinkan that are not obvious at first. You learn certain things at certain points- not too early because that would ruin your later progress. A lot of things that have been tossed out of "traditional" martial arts by those that would "modernize," "Improve" or otherwise change the art actually are very important.
> 
> In short, you don't know what a knife fight is like and you do not have not the knowledge of what should be taught at what point. You need to ask more questions, take a closer look at what is behind the training and not declare that certain things are done for tradition's sake or are not usefull for combat training. If you get some police reports of you taking on attackers with deadly weapons, you might get more respect when you talk like that- not before.


 
okay sorry with this last post I'm not going to regaurd what you have to say anymore. Benning school for boys hahahahaha. You have no idea about weather I have or have not been in any life or death situations. And there's no need for me to talk about this stuff in public. You just sound like a giant head. You're giving a bad name. I am stating my concern and what I have noticed from my dojo, and was wondering if others had the same problem. You are the reason why people think Bujinkan guys are all about ego. Take your own advice bud. Spin this how ever you want. Come back to me with some kind of insult..........that's fine, you'll just prove my point. And where you may have good points, respectablilty is lost in your pathetic attempts to show your experience. Again I was throwing out a frustration I had with our training in my area. So keep going Don, show everyone looking how you represent the Bujinkan.


----------



## Ronnin

bencole said:


> So you blame your teacher for the fact that you haven't spent time learning that you can do Age Uchi without the Bo.... (shake head)
> 
> So have you followed my advice and grabbed a training partner and tried to figure it out yet? Or do you expect your teacher to show you? Or do you expect me to show you?
> 
> You said that you knew the movement (and complained about its limitations with armor). If you know the movement, then you should be able to practice it as I've suggested.
> 
> Let me know when you do.
> 
> _(Hint: It might help you to find what you are looking for if, when you ask a question, you take the answer and do something with the answer.)_
> 
> Here is just one example....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Results *1* - *10* of about *1,100* for *david dow bujinkan*. (*0.41* seconds)
> 
> Results *1* - *10* of about *1,040* for *daniel weidman bujinkan*. (*0.19* seconds)
> 
> So rather than posting "I would love to find him," you could have done two things: (1) Googled the two of them and located them in a combined 1 full second! (2) Asked the person who recommended the teachers if he knew their contact information.
> 
> Instead, you allow other people's posts (and your ego that you "know real fighting") to detract you from what *SUPPOSEDLY* was your complaint--that in your dojo and the dojo nearby, you cannot find the training you are looking for....
> 
> So why not just spend the day *NOT POSTING* and instead follow up on the two points that have been raised for you: (1) See if you can figure out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the bo (and *WITHOUT* your teacher) and (2) Find David or Dan?
> 
> It's just a suggestion.
> 
> -ben


I already did find him, and I am going to check out his training. I don't want to change the art for god's sake. But I do have different expectations from it, which I KNOW this art can deliver. I need a dojo that uses Randori. The point to my post has already been proven, I need a knew dojo. My teacher is lacking in what *I* need.


----------



## Ronnin

KageMusha said:


> A friend of mine just got out the the SEAL's 2 years ago. They did a simplified version of Yoshin Ryu JuJutsu. Not MMA. I am not saying that some special forces don't do MMA, but to say ALL is a little broad.


 
I'm know they do, I have trained with them many many times, but that is just *one of the many* arts they do. That *is* MMA. Mixed Martial Arts


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Bigshadow said:


> The trojan horse was a gift too...


 
And a fictional scenario added to the original story by a roman becuase he felt the original was boring...

unless of course you are talking about the fictional side of the tactic...then that makes more sense


----------



## Bigshadow

Rubber Tanto said:


> And a fictional scenario added to the original story by a roman becuase he felt the original was boring...
> 
> unless of course you are talking about the fictional side of the tactic...then that makes more sense



IMO, tactics are very important.   The arm is not just hung out there with no purpose.  As I see it, the thing that some people are doing here is trying to talk "Aliveness" but they are only wanting to address the punch in a very static way, because they lack the understanding.  This is further compounded by sometimes witnessing poor uke and tori skills.  The arm is not out there disconnected and without purpose.  Our modern soldiers do the same thing, watch how they punch or shove someone back during CQ control while holding their weapon.  But to try and take that out of context and place it into a  static pose and say it has no purpose is rather adolescent and shallow in budo (IMO).  In a dynamic environment, it may not stay there long, furthermore it may not happen at all, or at least not look like it does in a static form, but I would wager it will encompass the principles involved.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> I'm know they do, I have trained with them many many times, but that is just *one of the many* arts they do. That *is* MMA. Mixed Martial Arts


 
Oh, so nine different martial arts aren't enough?

Based on what you've written here, I don't think you know what you need in terms of instructon, I do however think you know what you want. Probably because deep down, you're bored. How right am I on a scale?


----------



## Seattletcj

Bigshadow said:


> I  As I see it, the thing that some people are doing here is trying to talk "Aliveness" but they are only wanting to address the punch in a very static way, because they lack the understanding.



People can justify *anything, *if they try hard enough. And people do. Especially when that something is attached to that persons identity in one way or another IMO. Not talking about you specifically Bigshadow. 
Can someone also justfiy falling forward on your lead leg when your kick misses its target? Probably.

I guess because I "lack the understanding" I cant see the overwhelming benefit of punching, and leaving my arm outstretched. Is it really quantum physics ?   
I did find an example of what you are talking about though. It starts at 1:00 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=malY0Mukm-Y&mode=related&search=



> The arm is not out there disconnected and without purpose.  Our modern soldiers do the same thing, watch how they punch or shove someone back during CQ control while holding their weapon.


I have no idea what CQ control is. Can you provide some kind of video, or link or discription of what this is?



> In a dynamic environment, it may not stay there long, furthermore it may not happen at all, or at least not look like it does in a static form, but I would wager it will encompass the principles involved.


If you are participating in dynamic environments and are  using this tactic  successfully and consistantly I'd be interested in hearing about that. 
 I dont get how , if it did not happen at all (leaving your punching arm outstretched) it would still encompass the principals involved (in leaving your punching arm outstretched).


----------



## Ronnin

makoto-dojo said:


> One thing I was trying to get at in my post, albeit subtly, was the truth that no one should listen to a teacher who teaches you what to do in situations they have never experienced. It is very silly! Maybe akin to someone who plays banjo telling you how to play violin in an orchestra and thinking he knows because he plays a string instrument. It doesnt wash.
> 
> The only way you will know how you will do against a non-X-kan martial artist is to get in there with one. Or find a teacher who has. How to use the art in war can only be taught by someone who has been in war, how to use the art for personal protection must be taught by someone in the field, Interested in how to use it in police work? Find cops who have used it and learn from them.
> 
> Many people in all martial arts fall into theory and conceptual traps, they prove these out with dead ukes who move as they are told and never fight back. In these situations you can come up with elaborate scenarios all of which work in that environment.
> 
> If you look at our kata you will see they are simple and fast and no fuss or muss. The more fancy you get the further away from reality you get. Those with eyes to see can see the people lost in the fantasy world of their own minds. Be careful who you trust with your training, rank, where they live, what org they are in all means nothing if they cannot back up with action what they say.
> 
> Martial arts are serious business, caveat emptor


 
Mr. Ray I applaud you for your wisdom. It's a breath of fresh air. And I agree with what you say, you put it in better words than I.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> I guess because I "lack the understanding" I cant see the overwhelming benefit of punching, and leaving my arm outstretched. Is it really quantum physics ?
> I did find an example of what you are talking about though. Its at 1:00 in the video.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=malY0Mukm-Y&mode=related&search=



I don't know anything about those guys, so I am not going to critique them, but I will point out a couple of things.  First, he was instructing.  Therefore, they were doing things in a SLLOOOOOOWWWWW manner. You mean to tell me that at the terminus of your punch, if someone took a picture it wouldn't be extended?   That must be quantum physics? 



Seattletcj said:


> I have no idea what CQ control is. Can you provide some kind of video, or link or discription of what this is?



I was thinking of when you see soldiers controlling an agressor's distance.  I don't know the proper name for it.




Seattletcj said:


> If you are participating in dynamic environments and are  using this tactic  successfully and consistantly I'd be interested in hearing about that.



Just go to a good Bujinkan dojo, then you don't have to hear about it, more importantly you can feel it.

I think you and others are taking a slow training movement way out of context.


----------



## Seattletcj

Bigshadow said:


> I don't know anything about those guys, so I am not going to critique them, but I will point out a couple of things.  First, he was instructing.  Therefore, they were doing things in a SLLOOOOOOWWWWW manner. You mean to tell me that at the terminus of your punch, if someone took a picture it wouldn't be extended?   That must be quantum physics?



Dude, you lost me. Your point was about using the extended punching arm for additional attacks afterwards, right? That was at 1:00 in the video. Are we on the same page?



> I think you and others are taking a slow training movement way out of context.


Maybe so. I have no idea what the context is anymore. LOL
When did speed enter the equation? 

:drink2tha


----------



## Ronnin

Nimravus said:


> Oh, so nine different martial arts aren't enough?
> 
> Based on what you've written here, I don't think you know what you need in terms of instructon, I do however think you know what you want. Probably because deep down, you're bored. How right am I on a scale?


Yeah well, you know the difference between MMA and the 9 schools. You know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Ronnin

Future use.
CQ= Close Quarter
CQB= Close Quarter Battle


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I am stating my concern and what I have noticed from my dojo, and was wondering if others had the same problem.



No, in your first post you said *we* did things in *The Bujinkan* for tradition's sake. I corrected you and now you are acting rather peevish and like a troll. Your comment of, "And there's no need for me to talk about this stuff in public." sounds a lot like some of the virtual tough guys we have seen on these boards like Bruce Calkins.

If you only showed some proper attitude and admited that you do not know as much about the Bujinkan and why we do certain things, this conversation would have gone much better. As it is, your reputation has gone down the toilet and I am starting to come to the conclusion that someone else stated that you are just here to cause trouble for the Bujinkan.

It is still not too late. Instead of trying to convince yourself and the world that you know something more than you do, you could stop the insults and try to learn. If you admit that there are reasons you do not yet understand for certain things, then you might find yourself noticing them. But if you just continue to try to convince us how much you know while making statements we know are wrong, you will just dig yourself deeper and deeper into a foxhole that you will never get out of.


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> No, in your first post you said *we* did things in *The Bujinkan* for tradition's sake. I corrected you and now you are acting rather peevish and like a troll. Your comment of, "And there's no need for me to talk about this stuff in public." sounds a lot like some of the virtual tough guys we have seen on these boards like Bruce Calkins.
> 
> If you only showed some proper attitude and admited that you do not know as much about the Bujinkan and why we do certain things, this conversation would have gone much better. As it is, your reputation has gone down the toilet and I am starting to come to the conclusion that someone else stated that you are just here to cause trouble for the Bujinkan.
> 
> It is still not too late. Instead of trying to convince yourself and the world that you know something more than you do, you could stop the insults and try to learn. If you admit that there are reasons you do not yet understand for certain things, then you might find yourself noticing them. But if you just continue to try to convince us how much you know while making statements we know are wrong, you will just dig yourself deeper and deeper into a foxhole that you will never get out of.


 
Very good ...... I said "we" our dojo in the Bujinkan, so people didn't think I was any other kan. I don't know what you're doing in japan, but listening is not one of them. I'm also not trying to convince people I know a whole bunch, that's what you are doing. I think there's been a lot of very intelligent ( not from you ) statements made here. A lot to learn from. All you are doing is trying to say I know nothing ......... okay fine, that's why I'm asking, is this not a forum? Again you are why people of other arts view the bujinkan egotistical. You may not, but I respect all martial arts, they all have their place, and there's nothing more annoying then people who sit around, write "rant" threads, talk about how bad and stupid people are, and "try" to show how intelectually superior you are. I'm sure you make Soke proud. I'm doing what he says, I am exploring. Or wait......do you have an answer for why he says that too, and how I'm wrong ?


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Very good ...... I said "we" our dojo in the Bujinkan, so people didn't think I was any other kan. I don't know what you're doing in japan, but listening is not one of them. I'm also not trying to convince people I know a whole bunch, that's what you are doing.  A lot to learn from. All you are doing is trying to say I know nothing ......... okay fine, that's why I'm asking, is this not a forum? Again you are why people of other arts view the bujinkan egotistical. You may not, but I respect all martial arts, they all have their place, and there's nothing more annoying then people who sit around, write "rant" threads, talk about how bad and stupid people are, and "try" to show how intelectually superior you are. I'm sure you make Soke proud. I'm doing what he says, I am exploring. Or wait......do you have an answer for why he says that too, and how I'm wrong ?



Where shall I start?



> Very good ...... I said "we" our dojo in the Bujinkan, so people didn't think I was any other kan.



But of course, you gave the impression that the *entire* Bujinkan did things for traditions sake, that age uchi was not usable against anyting other than an armored opponent, etc. If you had said the training you had seen in your area, things would have been different. You were wrong, and since then you have acted rather badly.



> I don't know what you're doing in japan, but listening is not one of them.



Cheap shot that shows your mettle better than I can. I have gotten comments from others about how well I have read you in my reputation box. You may note that you have turned into a red dot since starting this thread.



> I'm also not trying to convince people I know a whole bunch, that's what you are doing.



Oh, so how do we know that you were a ranger if you are not trying to convince people you know a lot? As for me, after over a decade training in Japan, I seem to have aquired the idea that I know more about what the Bujinkan is about than a guy who has studied for only a couple of years behind the Orange Curtain.



> I think there's been a lot of very intelligent ( not from you ) statements made here.



Nice insult. But you may notice that my rep points have visibly risen since I started posting in this thread while yours have dropped like a prom dress at midnight.



> All you are doing is trying to say I know nothing ......... okay fine, that's why I'm asking, is this not a forum?



I fail to see how saying that age uchi can't be done in modern times qualifies as anything as a misinformed statement and not a question. And your comments about your ranger training fly in the face of your stance that you are saying you don't know anything. You certainly do not know much of anything about the Bujinkan or the reasons for certain aspects of it, but you have yet to state that or take that attitude.



> Again you are why people of other arts view the bujinkan egotistical.



Another cheap shot. I tell you are wrong, your ego drives you to say you are right and that I am acting out of ego. In other words, you are projecting your own vices onto others.



> You may not, but I respect all martial arts, they all have their place, and there's nothing more annoying then people who sit around, write "rant" threads, talk about how bad and stupid people are, and "try" to show how intelectually superior you are



Do you realize that people think this about you? Oh, and you mis-spelled "intelectually".



> I'm sure you make Soke proud.



Yet another cheap shot.



> I'm doing what he says, I am exploring. Or wait......do you have an answer for why he says that too, and how I'm wrong ?



Oh, but you see that you are the one that is stating that he is certain what he is doing is what Hatsumi wants.

Have you ever even been in the same room as him? I dare say no. So your saying that you are the one doing what he wants us to do kind of shows the very fundemental problem you face.

First of all, you need to admit you have an ego problem. To say to someone who lives in Japan that you are more knowledgeable about what Hatsumi wants without ever meeting the man tells the worlds loads about how you think. The fact that you made a big post about how you were not going to respond to any more posts to me, tried to intimidate me into not responding and got some insults in *and then* went back on your word and posted again shows us all that you are the type that tries to manipulate others and will do anything to attack them and promote your image in the eyes of others. You should never have said you were not going to respond to me again or responded after that. Now the world can see what you are.

Do you want to go through life like that? I really do not care if you stay in the Bujinkan. In fact, many people here have stated that they would prefer you leave, if you even really are a member. But when you make statements about the Bujinkan that are not true, it is kind of a duty that the rest of us correct you in public so that your disorted view of things does not gain traction.

You can still be saved. But you first have to stop thinking that you know abotu things you do not. The first step of wisdom is saying that you do not know. And you can't just use it as a mantra, you have to believe it and act like you know you do not know all the answers. Otherwise you will look on the world through your own prejudices and tune out all the lessons life gives us.


----------



## bydand

Good Posts Don! 

Ronnin, you might find your reputation dropping even more, I know I dinging you again for your stooping to a personal level.  So far you have shown your true colors and I am even more convinced you are on a personal vendetta against the Bujinkan. There will be yet another on my ignore list, jeeze 2 in the same week after going almost a year without using it.  So far you haven't posted a darn thing worth reading, so why even have to look through your condencending, personal remarks. 

Like I said before: if you don't like your training now, Shut the **** up go somewhere else.  There is no reason to continue to bash people and the art here.  What art do you really train in anyway?  You have posted on several different areas mentioning several different arts you train in, so I'm just wondering.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> Dude, you lost me. Your point was about using the extended punching arm for additional attacks afterwards, right?



Actually it was Ben that said that, but yes one could.  But I am not going to critique the video and pick apart whether or not they were doing it right.

Let me also point out there is a difference between a good punch and an overextended punch.  Overextended is bad.


----------



## Don Roley

Don Roley said:


> Oh, and you mis-spelled "intelectually".




Whoops! No he didn't.


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> Whoops! No he didn't.




Yes he did.


----------



## Don Roley

Bigshadow is right, and my Japanese to English dictionary is wrong. That is weird. But I am glad to know my first call was right.


----------



## Seattletcj

Bigshadow said:


> Actually it was Ben that said that, but yes one could.



Come on man. You were defending the idea, right?  Or was it just my imagination when you were talking about the principals and complexities  of the "Trojan horse arm", and its broader budo significance ?

anyway....


:cheers:


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> Come on man. You were defending the idea, right?



No, I was agreeing with Ben, because what he said makes sense to me.


----------



## Cryozombie

Bigshadow said:


> No, I was agreeing with Ben, because what he said makes sense to me.



What, someone with Ben's experience making sense???

Say it aint so!


----------



## DWeidman

Ronnin said:


> I already did find him, and I am going to check out his training.



I don't think you have contacted me yet.  David -- did he contact you?

-DW


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Cryozombie said:


> What, someone with Ben's experience making sense???
> 
> Say it aint so!


----------



## shinbushi

DWeidman said:


> I don't think you have contacted me yet.  David -- did he contact you?
> 
> -DW


Not that I know of.  I have gotten a few inquiries this week and I don't know Ronin's real name


----------



## Ronnin

Okay well I feel randori is a *VERY* importiant part of training. Mostly the reaction speed one needs in a real situation. You just never know how you're going to react 'till you *HAVE* to. I just don't think there's another way to train in that aspect. Or at least I don't know any other way.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Okay well I feel randori is a *VERY* importiant part of training. Mostly the reaction speed one needs in a real situation. You just never know how you're going to react 'till you *HAVE* to. I just don't think there's another way to train in that aspect. Or at least I don't know any other way.



But of course, if you do not have good habits by the time you do randori you will only build those habits into you. And after only a couple of years, I kind of think that maybe you do not have the basics down. I have seen people with several times your experience down that have bad basics. Some teachers only teach the basics without randori because they may never have gotten to the point where they could do randori in their training.

So, you might want to ask why you have not been shown randori yet. Or if there is another method to do the same thing. Personally, I am a fan of Peytonn Quinn's type of stuff rather than sparring. It is very close to some of the stuff I have done in Japan, but the stuff I do here would be very difficult to pull off in America with all the silly laws and ads on daytime TV for lawyers asking you to sue someone with them.

PS- even though you did not sign your comment in my rep box, I can tell who it came from. You might want to work on your grammer.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Ronnin said:


> Okay well I feel randori is a *VERY* importiant part of training. Mostly the reaction speed one needs in a real situation. You just never know how you're going to react 'till you *HAVE* to. I just don't think there's another way to train in that aspect. Or at least I don't know any other way.


 
Hello,

you may or may not enjoy this thread.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35690

Regards,


----------



## Cryozombie

Don Roley said:


> But of course, if you do not have good habits by the time you do randori you will only build those habits into you.



I'm gonna disagree for a moment Don, and I could be way off... but...

Ive only been back in training since 2003... not long at all.  Even tho I came back in at 8th kyu (where I left off) it had been so long since I trained that I considered myself as having started from the beginning again. That said, I do Randori... but instead of building bad habits with it, I use it to determine what bad habits I have been developing and work to overcome them.

Of course the only way I can do this is under the supervision of my instructor, who helps me see the mistakes that I often don't have the eyes for yet... So I think... you don't have to  be perfect before you do randori, but you have to approach it as a learning tool, with other eyes to help you.  I don't think a 2 guy  "Sparring" session is a good idea, because with both parties involved, no one is observing.   When we do Randori, everyone participates, watching and giving feedback as is appropriate.

I dunno... just my 2 cents on Randori.


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> But of course, if you do not have good habits by the time you do randori you will only build those habits into you. And after only a couple of years, I kind of think that maybe you do not have the basics down. I have seen people with several times your experience down that have bad basics. Some teachers only teach the basics without randori because they may never have gotten to the point where they could do randori in their training.
> 
> So, you might want to ask why you have not been shown randori yet. Or if there is another method to do the same thing. Personally, I am a fan of Peytonn Quinn's type of stuff rather than sparring. It is very close to some of the stuff I have done in Japan, but the stuff I do here would be very difficult to pull off in America with all the silly laws and ads on daytime TV for lawyers asking you to sue someone with them.
> 
> PS- even though you did not sign your comment in my rep box, I can tell who it came from. You might want to work on your grammer.


I didn't sign anything in your box. But it looks like someone else has thoughts about you. Also I'm not at my dojo anymore, I was sick of the politics. That's is why I posted this, to find out if the rest of the Bujinkan was this way. Looks like most dojo's do some form of randori. So that's good news.


----------



## Don Roley

Cryozombie said:


> I'm gonna disagree for a moment Don, and I could be way off... but...
> 
> Ive only been back in training since 2003... not long at all.  Even tho I came back in at 8th kyu (where I left off) it had been so long since I trained that I considered myself as having started from the beginning again. That said, I do Randori... but instead of building bad habits with it, I use it to determine what bad habits I have been developing and work to overcome them.
> 
> Of course the only way I can do this is under the supervision of my instructor, who helps me see the mistakes that I often don't have the eyes for yet... So I think... you don't have to  be perfect before you do randori, but you have to approach it as a learning tool, with other eyes to help you.



Ok, I can agree with that. I have used that as well. (Quinn always has a session afterwards to deal with the bad habits.) I was kind of thinking of just two guys going at things in their back yard when I was talking about the problems.


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> You might want to work on your grammer.



Psssst... Don...  it is gramm*a*r.  :uhyeah:


----------



## Bigshadow

Cryozombie said:


> I don't think a 2 guy  "Sparring" session is a good idea, because with both parties involved, no one is observing.   When we do Randori, everyone participates, watching and giving feedback as is appropriate.



Not only that, it often dissolves into competition and sometimes it isn't immediately clear to the participants of the randori, but is often clear to the instructor.


----------



## Bigshadow

Ronnin said:


> That's is why I posted this, to find out if the rest of the Bujinkan was this way. Looks like most dojo's do some form of randori. So that's good news.



We do randori, but it makes up only a smaller part of training, probably 3 to 5 percent of our overall training.  I believe too much randori can inhibit progress or create bad habits quicker.


----------



## exile

Don Roley said:


> Personally, I am a fan of Peytonn Quinn's type of stuff rather than sparring. It is very close to some of the stuff I have done in Japan, but the stuff I do here would be very difficult to pull off in America with all the silly laws and ads on daytime TV for lawyers asking you to sue someone with them.



It looks to me as if the Japanese tactical unit police guys shown training in that `Police Shotokan' video we got a link to at the end of last year train in that ultra-realistic manner you're referring to. The kind of stuff that Quinn, Geoff Thompson, Iain Abernethy and others teachguys who come from traditional arts and have demonstrated how to apply them flexibly in real combat under very unpleasant conditionsseems to me to be one of the biggest changes ever in traditional MA practice in the Western world. The reason it's not more common yet is probably because it's much scarier than ordinary sparring (apart from the lawsuit-happy cultural attitude problem). But you get what you pay for...


----------



## Seattletcj

Bigshadow said:


> Not only that, it often dissolves into competition and sometimes it isn't immediately clear to the participants of the randori, but is often clear to the instructor.



This assumes that competition is a bad thing.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> This assumes that competition is a bad thing.



Competition is not the lesson.


----------



## DWeidman

Bigshadow said:


> Not only that, it often dissolves into competition and sometimes it isn't immediately clear to the participants of the randori, but is often clear to the instructor.



Randori is like anything else -- there are good ways to do it and bad ways.  

Randori/alive training just tends to shatter illusions.  Some people want that... some people don't.  

My .02.

-DW


----------



## Bigshadow

DWeidman said:


> Randori is like anything else -- there are good ways to do it and bad ways.
> 
> Randori/alive training just tends to shatter illusions.  Some people want that... some people don't.
> 
> My .02.
> 
> -DW



I agree.


----------



## makoto-dojo

DWeidman said:


> Randori is like anything else -- there are good ways to do it and bad ways.
> 
> Randori/alive training just tends to shatter illusions. Some people want that... some people don't.
> 
> My .02.
> 
> -DW


 

Daniel hits the nail on the head! There is something much deeper going on here (the topic of randori etc) than what first may be seen. When people enter into a system for the first time, why do they join?

They join because they can agree with what is being presented, something about what is being shown, makes them feel better, more secure...

When you go looking for a style or school, you are looking for specific things, you have expectations, you join the school that most closely meets those expectations.

Some months or years in, you learn how to tow the party line and within that environment you move up the pecking order (whatever form it may take ALL schools have them) This further gives you the illusion of the original security (in terms of satisfiying your original needs) becoming more solid.

randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...

It is the first wake up call that you and only you are respoinsible for yourself. No one can save you, not your system, rank, teacher, lineage, not how many times you have been to Japan, not how well you can quote your Kancho.

Just you...

Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...

We all fall into traps of self created illusion, and we also get each others backs, You buy into my B.S. and I will buy into yours. We will gang up on those who challenge our stance.

Most everyone has been or is guilty of this.

I personally feel at the deepest level martial arts are about SELF discovery.

Which is a scary thing...

Sincerely,


----------



## Ronnin

I think the most importiant part of randori isn't necessarily the technique, but to get someone to think quickly. To react. To train the mind. Train the mind, and the body will follow once the mind calms down. That's what I use it for.


----------



## Bigshadow

Randori can be a very humbling (and I have had my share of humbling moments) part of training.  I always come away from it with things to work on.    Fortunately, not always the same things...


----------



## Ronnin

makoto-dojo said:


> Daniel hits the nail on the head! There is something much deeper going on here (the topic of randori etc) than what first may be seen. When people enter into a system for the first time, why do they join?
> 
> They join because they can agree with what is being presented, something about what is being shown, makes them feel better, more secure...
> 
> When you go looking for a style or school, you are looking for specific things, you have expectations, you join the school that most closely meets those expectations.
> 
> Some months or years in, you learn how to tow the party line and within that environment you move up the pecking order (whatever form it may take ALL schools have them) This further gives you the illusion of the original security (in terms of satisfiying your original needs) becoming more solid.
> 
> randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...
> 
> It is the first wake up call that you and only you are respoinsible for yourself. No one can save you, not your system, rank, teacher, lineage, not how many times you have been to Japan, not how well you can quote your Kancho.
> 
> Just you...
> 
> Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...
> 
> We all fall into traps of self created illusion, and we also get each others backs, You buy into my B.S. and I will buy into yours. We will gang up on those who challenge our stance.
> 
> Most everyone has been or is guilty of this.
> 
> I personally feel at the deepest level martial arts are about SELF discovery.
> 
> Which is a scary thing...
> 
> Sincerely,


Mr. Ray
I think you said it perfectly, and I can't even say anything else to add onto because it's perfectly complete. Thanks.


----------



## meta_aesthete

makoto-dojo said:


> randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...
> 
> * * *
> 
> It is the first wake up call that you and only you are respoinsible for yourself. No one can save you, not your system, rank, teacher, lineage, not how many times you have been to Japan, not how well you can quote your Kancho.


 
I've been watching this thread for a while now, and that's pure gold. I've been doing BBT on and off for a few months, but it was after my first randori experience that my assumptions about the art, my teacher, and my practice got seriously shaken. 

Shaken enough, regrettably, to project my newfound insecurities onto the art. I started looking at other dojos, drifted sporadically in and out of classes (still paying for full membership, though, which is funny). Essentially wasting lots of time and money trying to find a reason for me to "blame" my insecurity on BBT -- it must be the antiquated methods, or the kata forms, or this or that. 

But no. I trust my instructor, and I've practiced with some senior students who I couldn't touch if I tried. So the techniques are solid. But it took me a while to swallow my pride and admit that my lack of preparation was A) nobody's fault but my own, and B) a natural part of learning to become prepared.

Anyway. I just joined the forum, partly to find some answers and compare notes, partly because it seems fun, and partly because I find being in a community to be motivating. 

But you definitely just hit upon something there, and I very much appreciate the insight.


----------



## Seattletcj

Bigshadow said:


> Competition is not the lesson.



Thats true. Good point.
 I never said it was the lesson though.
The positive qualities you gain from competition, or competitiveness are sadly overlooked or simply ignored due to preconcieved biases in many cases.

A pretty balanced article on the subject : 

http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm

In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.



> Makoto-Dojo wrote: Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...
> 
> We all fall into traps of self created illusion, and we also get each others backs, You buy into my B.S. and I will buy into yours. We will gang up on those who challenge our stance.




Great points.


----------



## Ronnin

Seattletcj said:


> Thats true. Good point.
> I never said it was the lesson though.
> The positive qualities you gain from competition, or competitiveness are sadly overlooked or simply ignored due to preconcieved biases in many cases.
> 
> A pretty balanced article on the subject :
> 
> http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm
> 
> In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great points.


 
Well i believe both in fact *do *try to win. That is randori. That's how I do it. I dunno.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

makoto-dojo said:


> randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...


 
And the difference between this and my previous statements about how premature sparring makes all your training go out the window is...?



makoto-dojo said:


> Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...


 
Which is exactly the reason why every form of training can never be anything else than a simulation of reality. Most people advocating "more realistic" training are in actuality only looking for harder physical exercise.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> Well i believe both in fact *do *try to win. That is randori. That's how I do it. I dunno.


 
Personally, I try to establish control.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Ronnin said:


> Well i believe both in fact *do *try to win. That is randori. That's how I do it. I dunno.


 
I have some thoughts on this...


If both people are indeed trying to "win" we are speaking of competition (which is not in and of itself a "bad" thing...)

But Randori and "free training" is different, for example, person a tries to exit a building, person('s) B (c,d,e etc.) try to stop him and take his wallett. Okay.. GO! Randori? Yes! Competition? NO!

When doing what I call I.S.T. what others have called alive training, unless there is a spirit of trying to help each other, then it beomes a problem.

Training is not about winning or losing, not about trophies and titles.

just my opinion...

Sincerely,


----------



## Ronnin

makoto-dojo said:


> I have some thoughts on this...
> 
> 
> If both people are indeed trying to "win" we are speaking of competition (which is not in and of itself a "bad" thing...)
> 
> But Randori and "free training" is different, for example, person a tries to exit a building, person('s) B (c,d,e etc.) try to stop him and take his wallett. Okay.. GO! Randori? Yes! Competition? NO!
> 
> When doing what I call I.S.T. what others have called alive training, unless there is a spirit of trying to help each other, then it beomes a problem.
> 
> Training is not about winning or losing, not about trophies and titles.
> 
> just my opinion...
> 
> Sincerely,


I think I may be a bit misunderstood. Let me clarify:
When I say "win" I don't mean it in a "sport" fashion with a point system. As I said earlier, I think randori is more a mental exercise than a physical drill. If I continually achieve a technique, especially mulitiple techniques with a partner, then I am winning the mental game. I am _*understanding*_ the Taijutsu, *understanding *the application and so on.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Nimravus said:


> And the difference between this and my previous statements about how premature sparring makes all your training go out the window is...?


 
Hello,

I am sorry I was not responding to you, so would you please point me to your previous statements. Until I know what they are, I cannot answer your question. Once you do, I would be very happy to answer you.





Nimravus said:


> Which is exactly the reason why every form of training can never be anything else than a simulation of reality. Most people advocating "more realistic" training are in actuality only looking for harder physical exercise.


 
The first part I agree with. I always say at my Dojo, the only thing "real" is REAL and all we can do in a Dojo environment is to sort of "surround" the topic. We can never duplicate reality.

The second part I respectfully disagree with as it is an assumption. As an example, my own experience with others and myself looking for "realistic training" is to cover certain aspects of the whole. i.e. senerios, timming drills, adrenal training etc. Although I am sure some may be looking for a workout, I don't know.

Regards,


----------



## makoto-dojo

In addition to the e-budo link I posted before, many of my thoughts on this subject (and related subjects) can be found here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9819

(Saves me from having to re-type it all  )

Regards,


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I think the most importiant part of randori isn't necessarily the technique, but to get someone to think quickly. To react. To train the mind. Train the mind, and the body will follow once the mind calms down. That's what I use it for.



I think there are better ways to do that. You may not be aware of them for reasons I have already stated.


----------



## Ronnin

Man !!!!!! My rep is still down. Oh well in the great words of Joan Jett " I don't give a damn about my bad reputation"  we need a musical note image hahahaha......sigh


----------



## Don Roley

SeattletcjThe positive qualities you gain from competition said:


> http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm[/URL]
> 
> In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.



Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them _as lightweight weapons_ instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.

Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.


----------



## makoto-dojo

meta_aesthete said:


> I've been watching this thread for a while now, and that's pure gold. I've been doing BBT on and off for a few months, but it was after my first randori experience that my assumptions about the art, my teacher, and my practice got seriously shaken.
> 
> Shaken enough, regrettably, to project my newfound insecurities onto the art. I started looking at other dojos, drifted sporadically in and out of classes (still paying for full membership, though, which is funny). Essentially wasting lots of time and money trying to find a reason for me to "blame" my insecurity on BBT -- it must be the antiquated methods, or the kata forms, or this or that.
> 
> But no. I trust my instructor, and I've practiced with some senior students who I couldn't touch if I tried. So the techniques are solid. But it took me a while to swallow my pride and admit that my lack of preparation was A) nobody's fault but my own, and B) a natural part of learning to become prepared.
> 
> Anyway. I just joined the forum, partly to find some answers and compare notes, partly because it seems fun, and partly because I find being in a community to be motivating.
> 
> But you definitely just hit upon something there, and I very much appreciate the insight.


 
Thank you for your kind words.

It sounds to me as though you made a very big and (IMO important) step and I applaud you for it.

One thing I think many of us forget, is that in the Dojo, we are being "taught" we are NOT being coached! This is a huge difference IMO.. A Sensei is trying to TEACH you conepts, strategies, movements etc...

A Coach on the other hand is drilling you to become better at APPLYING these things you have been taught.

You can take Basket ball as an example. First you must be taught the game, the rules and what not, you must be taught to dribble, how to jump shoot, how to pass. There are mechanics that must be taught, and you do this physically. BUT, in order to get GOOD, you have to DRILL it and even play in games.

Listen to basket ball games and how they talk about rookies. They say things like wow, he has a great stroke, great court vision whatever, but he needs more experience in the NBA.

In other words, he needs more time DOING what he is trying to do.

It is the same with us.. The Dojo in most cases is the time when a teachers TEACHES you. But the onus is on each and every one of us to put in the time TRAINING what we "know". In some cases, your Dojo may provide you with opprotunities for this, sometimes they do not and you have to do it elsewhere.

Not everyone wants to do what it takes. Also remember not everyone is interested in being able to Use these arts. To some it is just fun and recreation, and that's fine too as long as they are honest with themselves.

Anyway, that is just my opinion FWIW..

Sincerely,


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

makoto-dojo said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am sorry I was not responding to you, so would you please point me to your previous statements. Until I know what they are, I cannot answer your question. Once you do, I would be very happy to answer you.


 
My bad, I wrote about that in "the rant thread". What I meant to say was that sparring prematurely in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu most often ends up becoming something other than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, mainly because no one has learned the stuff properly to begin with. I may have disinterpreted your post about how randori strips you of your ideas and systems, among other things.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Don Roley said:


> Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them _as lightweight weapons_ instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.
> 
> Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.


 

Awesome post!


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> Which is exactly the reason why every form of training can never be anything else than a simulation of reality.



Agreed. It is not black and white. There are some methodologies that come closer to "reality" though (or at least certain aspects of reality), and some methods that are farther away from "reality".


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> Agreed. It is not black and white. There are some methodologies that come closer to "reality" though (or at least certain aspects of reality), and some methods that are farther away from "reality".


 
No. All you can do is to choose between your limitations.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Nimravus said:


> My bad, I wrote about that in "the rant thread". What I meant to say that sparring prematurely in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu most often ends up becoming something other than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, mainly because no one has learned the stuff properly to begin with. I may have disinterpreted your post about how randori strips you of your ideas and systems, among other things.


 

I agree with you.

Everything must be step by step, no short cuts. Different people take longer tan others.

But if someone clearly cannot do something under no stress, then adding stress will only foul things up worse.

What I also disagree with is adding other arts and then doing randori. There is no reason for a takamatsu-den student to "add" boxing, MMA etc" to what they do when they do randori.

If you cannot do takamatsu-den in randori and have to add other things, then you were just not as good as you thought you were at takamatsu-den.

Face it and get to work. No one said this was easy 

At least that's how I see others opinions may vary..

Regards,


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> In randori or sparring, if there is no competition between the participants then it cannot really be called randori or sparring. Its then just another drill that follows the uke/tori methodology IMO. Which is ok, but its not the same. Both participants must want to, and try to win.
> 
> Great points.



IMO randori is imposing your will onto another through the art and I guess it can be seen as a competitive spirit of sorts.   But that wasn't what I had in mind.  Ever see two people randori from a knife attack and they end up competing for the knife, rather than focus on principles involved?  That is kinda what I was getting at.  The same thing can happen empty handed.


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them _as lightweight weapons_ instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.
> 
> Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.



That is precisely what I wish I could have said.  The feeling changes when ego takes over.  Thanks Don!    I have been struggling to get my thoughts into words on this and what you said is a large part of it.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

One thing that people probably can agree on is that any type of pressure testing generally changes the way it looks. (not the principles)  What I am getting at is that doing a waza and then falling into the same technique during randori/sparring/rolling will look different and possibly even sloppy compared to doing it slow and without aliveness so to speak.  That does not mean that it will not look awesome *based on the result* but yet it will look somewhat different than when practicing in the uke/tori relationship.


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker.



Always?  Hmmm...



Don Roley said:


> There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.



Just out of curiousity -- why is there such reluctance to get ego involved?  Should you not want to win?  

Ego at the expense of safety or learning is bad... but two people both trying to "win"...  

-DW

PS.  I rarely use a predetermined attacker.  Too much is lost / given away in that scenario.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them _as lightweight weapons_ instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.
> 
> Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.


 
How true!


----------



## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One thing that people probably can agree on is that any type of pressure testing generally changes the way it looks. (not the principles)  What I am getting at is that doing a waza and then falling into the same technique during randori/sparring/rolling will look different and possibly even sloppy compared to doing it slow and without aliveness so to speak.  That does not mean that it will not look awesome *based on the result* but yet it will look somewhat different than when practicing in the uke/tori relationship.




I would definitely agree with that!


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them _as lightweight weapons_ instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.
> 
> Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker. There can still be ego involved. But there is less chance. And we have to be wary of the ego taking over in those training.


This is a good point which I think a lot of people lose in thier training. We *must* seek the humble mind. Ego will only hinder people from advancing in all walks.


----------



## Ronnin

DWeidman said:


> Always? Hmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> Just out of curiousity -- why is there such reluctance to get ego involved? Should you not want to win?
> 
> Ego at the expense of safety or learning is bad... but two people both trying to "win"...
> 
> -DW
> 
> PS. I rarely use a predetermined attacker. Too much is lost / given away in that scenario.


this is also true I think. but the difference for me is ego, and determination. ego is a selfishness, determination is a confidence. That's how I view it.


----------



## Seattletcj

makoto-dojo said:


> If both people are indeed trying to "win" we are speaking of competition (which is not in and of itself a "bad" thing...)
> 
> But Randori and "free training" is different, for example, person a tries to exit a building, person('s) B (c,d,e etc.) try to stop him and take his wallett. Okay.. GO! Randori? Yes! Competition? NO!


 This sounds more like scenario training, in which the focus is different, specific to the goals of the participants. Both people have goals that they want to accomplish (i.e win), and  actions taken are usually limited depending on those specific goals. Here there are uke and tori. Bad guy and good guy. Usually the good guy is suppose to win, which  changes things, even if in a  subtle way.


I dont agree that wanting to win is really a bad thing. Winning  means you accomplish your goal...whatever that may be.
I also dont agree that wanting to win makes you an ego maniac. The more seasoned individuals can accept defeat and put it in proper perspective, and dont go wild in attempts to win friendly sparring matches at all costs.

Many times beginners at "sparring" IMO usually have trouble accepting defeat, and cannot put the training into proper perspective.  This is bad ego. It usually changes once they are defeated again and again and have no choice but to become humble  and look at things more honestly.

Just my opinion. Nice posts guys.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> This is a good point which I think a lot of people lose in thier training. We *must* seek the humble mind. Ego will only hinder people from advancing in all walks.



The problem is, every last egomaniac I know of says the same thing. Everyone gives lip service to casting aside the ego, returning to the student's mind, etc. Then they do things that serve their ego.

Best to realize that if you have an ego problem, you will be the last to know. So you should avoid situations where you can strut around after "winning" (even a little) and structure your training more on _learning._

Free response to attacks, pressure training, etc. All these things do not need to be trained at by means of a situation where people are trying to win.


----------



## DWeidman

Seattletcj said:


> Many times beginners at "sparring" IMO usually have trouble accepting defeat, and cannot put the training into proper perspective.  This is bad ego. It usually changes once they are defeated again and again and have no choice but to become humble  and look at things more honestly.
> 
> Just my opinion. Nice posts guys.



Let me throw in something for everyone else here...  

Before anyone can spar -- with / in front of -- me, they need to know what the purpose is.  That changes from time to time.

I then make sure that everyone knows that winning doesn't teach you nearly as much as losing does... so losing is better for learning than winning.  Counter-intuitive... but accurate.

This is also why you need to spend time with people under - at the same level - and above you.  All 3 groups have their own different (and important) purposes.

Anyway.

Just common sense...  Or occassionally uncommon sense...

-DW


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Free response to attacks, pressure training, etc. All these things do not need to be trained at by means of a situation where people are trying to win.



Did you mean this?


----------



## Ronnin

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Takamatsu sensei say in "The Essence of Ninjutsu" ninjutsu is the art af winning ?!


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> The problem is, every last egomaniac I know of says the same thing. Everyone gives lip service to casting aside the ego, returning to the student's mind, etc. Then they do things that serve their ego.
> 
> Best to realize that if you have an ego problem, you will be the last to know. So you should avoid situations where you can strut around after "winning" (even a little) and structure your training more on _learning._
> 
> Free response to attacks, pressure training, etc. All these things do not need to be trained at by means of a situation where people are trying to win.


Yes ego maniacs do say this all the time, but they are then still ego maniacs. This should not stop us from trying to achieve it. We may never reach the complete loss of ego, but the only thing that will happen is you'll drop *some* ego, which is better than none.


----------



## Ronnin

Anyway guys this seems to be the last page, may I say thank you for all the impute, I hope everyone learned a little something. I know I sure did.
See everyone on the next thread !!!


----------



## Ronnin

Never mind, it was just brought to my attention it's not the last page. So I take back all the things I said.


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> Sadly, 99 times out of a hundred, when you get both parties wanting to "win" you get people's ego involved. People start working to "win" at the scenario and do things that will let them win at the scenario, but not in real life. Take a look at some of the Daikomyosai tapes where people have been given lightweight versions of weapons and told to go at it. The amount of people that use them _as lightweight weapons_ instead of using them like they were their real weight is the greater half.



I'm also not sure what the obsession with ego is. I mean if someone is a jerk, or a beginner, thats one thing. 
As far as the Daikomyosai goes.... Does it say more about the ability of the individuals who participated who were unable to put the activity into proper perspective and act appropriately, or was it the fault of the activity itself ?

At the same time I'd say its probably hard to move in real time defending yourself and trying to hit someone else in front of your soke...while pretending the stick in your hand is not the actual weight of the stick in your hand, but the weight of a steel sword, of which you may or may not know how it feels to use in real time.



> Randori does not mean that both sides have to win. In fact, one side is just there to serve as an attacker.


This is not what most people consider randori. Its not a bad exercise at all. Its just not randori. Maybe.....Dondori.  :boing1:


As far as stereotypes of certain training methodologies and ego go .....check out the sparring done in this dojo and see if its really ego overload....







And for a more hardcore look at the ego and sparring

http://dogbrothersvideo.com/dbpitch.wmv


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> I'm also not sure what the obsession with ego is. I mean if someone is a jerk, or a beginner, thats one thing.



No, you seem to misunderstand the very basic points I am trying to make.

Take a look at any art that supposably tried sparring to help thier skills. Given enough time, each and every one I can imagine ended up as no better than a sport. While people are *saying* things like they are learning more from their losses than their wins, their *actions* are to win even if it runs counter to good habits.

That is the ego that makes them do it. And they do not know that it is their ego leading them around. If you step back a few years and look back on something that happened to you, you may be able to shake your head and realize that it was your ego calling the shots. But _at the time_ you will come up with justifications for your actions and defend what you do to the death. We do not see the ego that controls us and we should avoid situations where we might be lured by it. Otherwise, what we do will probably end up like the guys doing XMA kata for trophies.

Let me tell you a story I have told here before. Years ago I served as a translator for a question to one of the shihan for a particular question. Someone had heard that Hatsumi used to do randori/sparring but had given it up and they wanted to know if it was true. The shihan confirmed that this was the case. But the guys that were allowed to do this were only those that had perfect taijutsu and they were observed by Hatsumi during training. Hatsumi gave up this type of training when he found that several gaijin students had their taijutsu *degrade* after sparring. They developed bad habits.

Maybe if our taijutsu is perfect, we can do it too. But we need to be very, very careful. To be honest, I do not think my taijutsu is perfect. But I think I know what type of standard I should be shooting for. And the number of people that are in the Bujinkan that do not even seem to be aware of that standard of perfection is the vast majority IMO. So for them to do sparring would be a mistake. If my teachers in Japan have me do randori, then I will do it under their watchful gaze. But for me to declare to the world that my taijutsu is perfect and I can do sparring on my own strikes me as a bit arrogent.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Takamatsu sensei say in "The Essence of Ninjutsu" ninjutsu is the art af winning ?!



Did he? Find the quote. Maybe winning is getting home alive and not something you do in the ring.


----------



## Cryozombie

Here's a great question, another member just IMed me about some of you kids... I wont answer them for you, but feel free to do it yourself.



> [03:16] XXX: I can't figure out the issue with the Booj is
> [03:16] XXX: I mean.....
> [03:16] XXX: if ya don't like it, don't train in it
> [03:16] ME: Right?
> [03:17] XXX: Hey ya know what Cryo?
> [03:17] XXX: Just between you and me
> [03:17] XXX: American Boxing isn't my thing
> [03:18] XXX: Gee....
> [03:18] XXX: Somehow, I don't train in it
> [03:18] XXX: Funny how that works
> [03:19] ME: Oh my god, I'm going to post that...



​


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> Did he? Find the quote. Maybe winning is getting home alive and not something you do in the ring.


 
Yes obviously "winning" is surviving. I figured that was a given coming from Takamatsu.


----------



## Ronnin

Cryozombie said:


> Here's a great question, another member just IMed me about some of you kids... I wont answer them for you, but feel free to do it yourself.​


 
okay that's good.........but not one time here has *ANYONE* stated they don't like what the art has to offer. So that statement is kind of irrelevant. Were are talking about randori. Randori is one section of, well many, many ways of training. That would be like a boxer saying " well I don't like to jump rope, so I'm not going to box anymore".


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> Yes obviously "winning" is surviving. I figured that was a given coming from Takamatsu.



But not in the way your phrased it and the context of the way you used in in a conversation. When we are talking about "winning" in the midst of a conversation about sparring/randori it tends to make people think you are talking about defeating the other person. Now it just sounds like you are trying to back track on what you were saying. Please be more careful with the way you phrase things in the future if that is not the case.


----------



## bencole

[B said:
			
		

> Ronnin][/B]Yes obviously "winning" is surviving. I figured that was a given coming from Takamatsu.


 


Don Roley said:


> But not in the way your phrased it and the context of the way you used in in a conversation. When we are talking about "winning" in the midst of a conversation about sparring/randori it tends to make people think you are talking about defeating the other person. Now it just sounds like you are trying to back track on what you were saying. Please be more careful with the way you phrase things in the future if that is not the case.


 
Just so you do not think that Don is picking on you, Ronnin, I agree with his reprimand. The idea of "surviving" is *NOT* the way that you used it when you were quoting Takamatsu-sensei.

-ben


----------



## makoto-dojo

Seattletcj said:


> This sounds more like scenario training, in which the focus is different, specific to the goals of the participants. Both people have goals that they want to accomplish (i.e win), and actions taken are usually limited depending on those specific goals. Here there are uke and tori. Bad guy and good guy. *Usually the good guy is suppose to win, which changes things, even if in a subtle way*.


 
Depends on who is doing the drill. When we do it, both sides want to "win" in the sense of accomplish their goals, either take someone down and "kill" them, or get away to the safe zone. both parties want to "win" (if we want to use that word...)




Seattletcj said:


> I dont agree that wanting to win is really a bad thing. Winning means you accomplish your goal...whatever that may be.
> I also dont agree that wanting to win makes you an ego maniac. The more seasoned individuals can accept defeat and put it in proper perspective, and dont go wild in attempts to win friendly sparring matches at all costs.
> 
> Many times beginners at "sparring" IMO usually have trouble accepting defeat, and cannot put the training into proper perspective. This is bad ego. It usually changes once they are defeated again and again and have no choice but to become humble and look at things more honestly.
> 
> Just my opinion. Nice posts guys.


 
You bring up good points. I think this may be one of those situations where the word being used (winning) is being interpreted in different ways. I understand how you are using it.

Another way to use it, and I think maybe how some are looking at it, is where the person loses site of the ultimate goal of survival. here is an example.

Last Saturday before my morning ninpo class, we had a "jissen-kai" class (drills, randori, attribute training etc...) The guys were given a task, we would start from various scenarios, like for example waiting in line somewhere, sitting on the ground in a park etc. And the other student was to try to accomplish a predetermined goal. Either get their wallet, "beat them up" Attach and then pull out a hidden knife. The good guy had to make it to the tori gate at the front of the Dojo. (Safety)

I can't tell you how many times I had to yell at the guys to stop "fighting" and RUN! There were many times where the "good guy" could have took off, but instead, stuck around trying to "win".

In on case (of many similar that day) one student was on the ground, another attacked him and tried to pin him and knife him. The "good guy" reversed the "bad guy" but then instead of getting up, he stayed there in "top control" and looked for a submission. I had to yell at him, just get up and run... RUN!!! He was like Oh yeah! and took off..



DWeidman said:


> Let me throw in something for everyone else here...
> 
> Before anyone can spar -- with / in front of -- me, they need to know what the purpose is. That changes from time to time.
> 
> I then make sure that everyone knows that winning doesn't teach you nearly as much as losing does... so losing is better for learning than winning. Counter-intuitive... but accurate.
> 
> This is also why you need to spend time with people under - at the same level - and above you. All 3 groups have their own different (and important) purposes.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> Just common sense... Or occassionally uncommon sense...
> 
> -DW


 
many good points. Not sure I agree 100% that losing is better for learning than winning, I am more of the mind that both teach different things, both being valuable.



Seattletcj said:


> This is not what most people consider randori. Its not a bad exercise at all. Its just not randori. Maybe.....Dondori. :boing1:
> 
> 
> As far as stereotypes of certain training methodologies and ego go .....check out the sparring done in this dojo and see if its really ego overload....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCreAT37U0k
> 
> 
> And for a more hardcore look at the ego and sparring
> 
> http://dogbrothersvideo.com/dbpitch.wmv



Again the word game  I have found that different people mean different things using the same words.

Your clips are good. I find more ego in places people do not spar than in places people do spar (regularly) I think when the non-sparring Dojo try sparring every now and then, then they see the jerks non-sparring creates and then they blame sparring. The truth is that sparring just brought it to light. It was created in the environment of NOT sparring!

It is so easy to become a jerk when you walk around with your black belt, holder of all the secrets never having to put it on the line and prove your ability. These sorts of people beat their students down, hit them very hard, but never allow the student to fight back... It is a fear based culture through and through...

Free training in its various forms (as I search for a word that is vanilla enough  ) destroys the false ego gods Dojo syndrome. the grand poo pahs come to see they are not all that after all..

of course this is the main reason many of these people (who fall under that category) never do "free training"



Don Roley said:


> No, you seem to misunderstand the very basic points I am trying to make.
> 
> Take a look at any art that supposably tried sparring to help thier skills. Given enough time, each and every one I can imagine ended up as no better than a sport. While people are *saying* things like they are learning more from their losses than their wins, their *actions* are to win even if it runs counter to good habits.


 
Can you give examples, names, schools etc?



Don Roley said:


> That is the ego that makes them do it. And they do not know that it is their ego leading them around. If you step back a few years and look back on something that happened to you, you may be able to shake your head and realize that it was your ego calling the shots. But _at the time_ you will come up with justifications for your actions and defend what you do to the death. We do not see the ego that controls us and we should avoid situations where we might be lured by it. Otherwise, what we do will probably end up like the guys doing XMA kata for trophies.


 
My experience is VERY different than this. What are you basing these conclusions on? What direct experiences have caused you to form these opinions?



Don Roley said:


> Let me tell you a story I have told here before. Years ago I served as a translator for a question to one of the shihan for a particular question. Someone had heard that Hatsumi used to do randori/sparring but had given it up and they wanted to know if it was true. The shihan confirmed that this was the case. But the guys that were allowed to do this were only those that had perfect taijutsu and they were observed by Hatsumi during training. Hatsumi gave up this type of training when he found that several gaijin students had their taijutsu *degrade* after sparring. They developed bad habits.
> 
> Maybe if our taijutsu is perfect, we can do it too. But we need to be very, very careful. To be honest, I do not think my taijutsu is perfect. But I think I know what type of standard I should be shooting for. And the number of people that are in the Bujinkan that do not even seem to be aware of that standard of perfection is the vast majority IMO. So for them to do sparring would be a mistake. If my teachers in Japan have me do randori, then I will do it under their watchful gaze. But for me to declare to the world that my taijutsu is perfect and I can do sparring on my own strikes me as a bit arrogent.


 
I disagree GREATLY with this. I am sure your teachers have said this and all, But I disagree with your teachers here (as do many many many other highly skilled martial artists FWIW)

Taijutsu will never be perfect first. Second, since I believe free training to be essential for developing ABILITY to USE the art. Following that advice, you are asking people to become "perfect" (impossible) BEFORE they can learn to use the art.

I agree that a base of movement ability needs to be there, but...

Respectfully...


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Let me tell you a story I have told here before. Years ago I served as a translator for a question to one of the shihan for a particular question. Someone had heard that Hatsumi used to do randori/sparring but had given it up and they wanted to know if it was true. The shihan confirmed that this was the case. But the guys that were allowed to do this were only those that had perfect taijutsu and they were observed by Hatsumi during training. Hatsumi gave up this type of training when he found that several gaijin students had their taijutsu *degrade* after sparring. They developed bad habits.



I have seen the videos -- perfect taijutsu?  Riiiight...



Don Roley said:


> But for me to declare to the world that my taijutsu is perfect and I can do sparring on my own strikes me as a bit arrogent.


This is only relevant if you believe your taijutsu has to be perfect before you start sparring.  I don't -- and more to the point -- I can't imagine why anyone would.  Oh -- And I spar / roll regularly.

-DW


----------



## Cryozombie

Ronnin said:


> Were are talking about randori. Randori is one section of, well many, many ways of training.



Maybe you should go back and read this entire thread before you say the whole thing is about Randori, man.


----------



## saru1968

Ronnin said:


> Yes obviously "winning" is surviving.....


 

Not when the injuries you 'collected' during 'winning' kill you later and not when disengagement in the first place was available.


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Did he? Find the quote. Maybe winning is getting home alive and not something you do in the ring.


_
http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page2.html 

 Another incident that occurred when Takamatsu was 13 years old. He fought a Sumo wrestler in a competition, whose name was "Oni no Yama" (Demon mountain). These competitions were held regular in all of the towns, and villages in Japan, and it was common for all teenagers to take part. ON was first set to fight Raiden (Thunder lightning). They met in the middle of the ring, and Raiden was easily beaten by Oni. Takamatsu entered the ring, not even bothering to put on the traditional Sumo belt worn by wrestlers. When Takamatsu was asked his name, he replied "Akebono". ON attacked Takamatsu. but he was thrown from the ring with little difficulty. Takamatsu was proclaimed the winner. Takamatsu then fought several other men, some of these were up to 10 years older than himself, but he still easily beat them. Then into the ring entered a large man over twice the weight of young Takamatsu (Akebono). He called himself Osakayama (Osaka mountain). They clashed in the middle, but due to his size Takamatsu had difficulty in moving him, Osakayama grabbed Takamatsu by the waist, and started to push him out of the ring. While doing this Osakayama accidentally placed his foot outside of the ring, and Takamatsu was proclaimed the winner. Takamatsu had won, and Osakayama, told Takamatsu that he was really called Kokumonryu (Black dragon gate), and was a famous Sumo wrestler from Osaka. As Takamatsu walked home, Kokumonryu, and walked with him to his home. Kokumonryu asked Takamatsu's father if he would allow him to take young Takamatsu back to Osaka with him, and take him on as a student of Sumo. His father refused saying that he was already studying Budo.

_

And from the next page:

http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page3.html 

_In Toda's dojo, Takamatsu was sometimes called Kotengu (small goblin). because of the way he fought, not even allowing the adults to better him._ 

Sounds like ego to me!

Hm.... Problems?

-DW


----------



## DWeidman

saru1968 said:


> Not when the injuries you 'collected' during 'winning' kill you later and not when disengagement in the first place was available.



Hmmmm

Same page:

http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page2.html 
_
 In the old day's It was usual for the senior student to teach the beginners, but on this occasion, he was taught directly by Toda. For the first year he was taught nothing. Toda, and the other students continuously threw him about the dojo. When the blood started to drip from his elbows, and knees nobody comforted him, they just continued the repetitive throwing, but still every night he came back. After one year he of continuous beatings he was taught his first techniques.

_


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

makoto-dojo said:


> Again the word game  I have found that different people mean different things using the same words.


 
My own take on it - "when the gloves are off, the game is on".



makoto-dojo said:


> Your clips are good. I find more ego in places people do not spar than in places people do spar (regularly)


 
In a way, this is true. But those who spar regularly often go to far lesser lengths to hide their contempt for training methodologies they disagree with, or don't understand.



makoto-dojo said:


> I think when the non-sparring Dojo try sparring every now and then, then they see the jerks non-sparring creates and then they blame sparring. The truth is that sparring just brought it to light. It was created in the environment of NOT sparring!


 
That depends totally on what kind of people you're dealing with. I can tell you one thing - if I ever snap and decide I want to teach, my training group will have both an upper and lower age limit. No one over 30 or below 20.



makoto-dojo said:


> It is so easy to become a jerk when you walk around with your black belt, holder of all the secrets never having to put it on the line and prove your ability. These sorts of people beat their students down, hit them very hard, but never allow the student to fight back... It is a fear based culture through and through...


 
A culture in which you constantly feel the need to prove yourself is no less fear based if you ask me.



makoto-dojo said:


> My experience is VERY different than this. What are you basing these conclusions on? What direct experiences have caused you to form these opinions?


 
I believe Don is touching upon the very human trait of experience and/or remorse. 
This last New Year's Eve a friend of mine narrowly avoided a fight with some doped-up guy who walked straight into him just looking for trouble. My friend initially seemed as if he was going to start slugging it out, but eventually settled the issue by apologizing and proceeding to walk in the other direction. However, ten minutes later on our way to the party, he suddenly became extremely PO-ed and started screaming at everyone including his girlfriend. The obvious explanation to this was that as a fairly macho guy, his ego urged him to prove to everyone present that he wasn't a sissy just because of his having walked away from a fight. He has since apologized to everyone about his behaviour that night.



makoto-dojo said:


> Taijutsu will never be perfect first. Second, since I believe free training to be essential for developing ABILITY to USE the art. Following that advice, you are asking people to become "perfect" (impossible) BEFORE they can learn to use the art.


 
How about what I suggested earlier - when arms aren't shaking, backs are straight and legs aren't, then it might be time for some randori.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Don't know about the rest of you, but I'd wager that several of the stories about Takamatsu are apocryphal.


----------



## Cryozombie

Nimravus said:


> No one over 30 or below 20.



So you hanging it up when you are 30, Bro?


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> Don't know about the rest of you, but I'd wager that several of the stories about Takamatsu are apocryphal.



They are apocryphal when it is [SIZE=-1]convenient, [/SIZE] I'd wager. They are gospel at other times.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Nimravus said:


> In a way, this is true. But those who spar regularly often go to far lesser lengths to hide their contempt for training methodologies they disagree with, or don't understand.


 
Hello,

I am not sure I can agree here. I think it is fairly equal both ways.




Nimravus said:


> A culture in which you *constantly feel the need to prove yourself* is no less fear based if you ask me.


 
Very true, but it is also true that it is an assumption to think that those who "spar-randori-free train I.S.T." constantly feel the need to prove themselves. _(Not saying that *you* are making such an assumption mind you, I am just saying...)_





Nimravus said:


> I believe Don is touching upon the very human trait of experience and/or remorse.  This last New Year's Eve a friend of mine narrowly avoided a fight with some doped-up guy who walked straight into him just looking for trouble.
> 
> .....
> 
> He has since apologized to everyone about his behaviour that night.


 
Its a part of growing up. We have all been there I would imagine. (in one guise or another)



Nimravus said:


> How about what I suggested earlier - when arms aren't shaking, backs are straight and legs aren't, then it might be time for some randori.


 
I feel all styles (that "randori") and beyond that all instructors (that "randori") have their own standards and expectations set in place before allowing their students to do randori, be that "perfect taijutsu" (which I read as "never") or certain basses of ability.

In my Dojo someone on the Ninpo track can't di it until after 7th kyu. This is because of how our requirements are set up. I personally feel someone needs to be proficient up to 7th kyu otherwise they are not doing our art, but some strange creation called "save-my-butt-do" complete with a plethora of bad habits!

In our Ninpo, by 7th kyu, you have a solid beginning base in taisabaki, ashi sabaki, taihenjutsu, ukemi and daken gata. We then SLOWLY introduce I.S.T. mostly sabaki at first. When a student moves from level to level is up to how soon they progress under pressure without losing their taijutsu.

People on the ju-jutsu track do it sooner.

Koryu Karate even sooner

Goshinjutsu maybe first class (in some limited aspects)

Our Grappling class and kali class have "alive drills"/randori "aspects" right from the start.


I should note that when I speak of randori/free training. I am not talking about people going hammer and tongs like in a competition, but more like the clips seattletcj posted. Getting in and doing a competition is one thing, TRAINING is another. (I think ALLOT of people misunderstand this)

I also do not feel you can train some things in randori because they are too dangerous, maybe slow style free training with two very good mature students, but...

Anyway, just my opinion folks nothing more..

Oh, BTW here is a clip of Aikido randori even this "gentle art" understands the need for free training (I am not interested in a critique of their taijutsu or whatever, just showing that they at least do it in a free environment. And they are AGAINST competition! Also notice how pretty technique breaks down under pressure, maybe why lots of folks don't do it..   I don't personally agree with everything they say and do, but it helps show a point.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyyFlHhtWoI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI&mode=related&search=


thanks for the conversation,

Sincerely,


----------



## Don Roley

makoto-dojo said:


> Can you give examples, names, schools etc?



Sure, anything from Edo period kenjutsu to judo to PPC and IPSC.




makoto-dojo said:


> My experience is VERY different than this. What are you basing these conclusions on? What direct experiences have caused you to form these opinions?



Lots of personal ones as well as direct observations of people doing things in sparring that are not good habits and trying to justify it.



makoto-dojo said:


> I disagree GREATLY with this. I am sure your teachers have said this and all, But I disagree with your teachers here (as do many many many other highly skilled martial artists FWIW)
> 
> Taijutsu will never be perfect first. Second, since I believe free training to be essential for developing ABILITY to USE the art. Following that advice, you are asking people to become "perfect" (impossible) BEFORE they can learn to use the art.



So you disagree. I understand that. I just happen to trust the words and experiences of my Japanese teachers and Hatsumi than I do yours. I am sure you feel differently and you are not a student of Hatsumi, so we are free to agree to disagree.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

makoto-dojo said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am not sure I can agree here. I think it is fairly equal both ways.


 
Never met anyone in the Buj who speaks like Matt Thornton does.



makoto-dojo said:


> Very true, but it is also true that it is an assumption to think that those who "spar-randori-free train I.S.T." constantly feel the need to prove themselves. _(Not saying that *you* are making such an assumption mind you, I am just saying...)_




It's probably fairly equal both ways.



makoto-dojo said:


> Its a part of growing up. We have all been there I would imagine. (in one guise or another)


 
Didn't you just say that your experience has been very different from this?



makoto-dojo said:


> I also do not feel you can train some things in randori because they are too dangerous, maybe slow style free training with two very good mature students, but...


 
It's not always the case of the techniques being to dangerous to "try out" per se, sometimes it's too dangerous for the people participating. I'd imagine the average tribal-tattooed ex-shooto guy finding his way into black-clad budo stands up against shutos to the neck a tad better than the geeky goth-clad D&D aficionado nest to him.



makoto-dojo said:


> Oh, BTW here is a clip of Aikido randori even this "gentle art" understands the need for free training (I am not interested in a critique of their taijutsu or whatever, just showing that they at least do it in a free environment. And they are AGAINST competition!


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomiki_aikido


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Cryozombie said:


> So you hanging it up when you are 30, Bro?


 
I'm hanging it up next year because the world's going to end then. I'm going with Ernest Emerson - there's going to be a nuclear war following the Olympic games in Beijing.


----------



## Cryozombie

Nimravus said:


> I'm hanging it up next year because the world's going to end then. I'm going with Ernest Emerson - there's going to be a nuclear war following the Olympic games in Beijing.



Ah I see.


----------



## jks9199

Nimravus said:


> My bad, I wrote about that in "the rant thread". What I meant to say was that sparring prematurely in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu most often ends up becoming something other than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, mainly because no one has learned the stuff properly to begin with. I may have disinterpreted your post about how randori strips you of your ideas and systems, among other things.


Sparring, in any system, leads to developing bad habits if the participants don't already have good habits.  I really think that's one of the reasons behind the decline/mushing of martial arts fighting today.  People who didn't have the skills tried to spar, then when they couldn't get their principles to work, blamed the system.  They then either abandoned the principles and "banged" or they looked around to graft something in that they thought would help...  Instead of stopping and going back, looking at their basics, and seeing why it didn't work.


----------



## DWeidman

jks9199 said:


> Sparring, in any system, leads to developing bad habits if the participants don't already have good habits.



Not sparring, in any system, leads to developing unrealistic habits if the participants don't already have good ability to apply said training at realistic speeds against people who want you ascert their will on you.



jks9199 said:


> I really think that's one of the reasons behind the decline/mushing of martial arts fighting today.



... I think that is one of the reasons behind cults and people who hide behind rank -- leading to the decline of _martial_ ability in arts today.



jks9199 said:


> People who didn't have the skills tried to spar, then when they couldn't get their principles to work, blamed the system.


... People who don't have skills and don't spar, love the system because they don't have to prove their principles work.



jks9199 said:


> They then either abandoned the principles and "banged" or they looked around to graft something in that they thought would help...  Instead of stopping and going back, looking at their basics, and seeing why it didn't work.


... They then hold to the illusion that their principles magically have transferred from a lineage to them.  Instead of stopping and thinking and using the art the way it was applied back when it was useful -- they rely on anedotal tales to explain why they think it should work.  Anyone who dares claim it might not work simply doesn't *trust* or believe in the cult mentality that doesn't challenge the preconceived notions of the larger cult/group...

Honestly -- this can go both ways.  I mostly believe what I wrote above -- just not quite as strongly as I worded it.

Don't worry -- this is a belief system.  Logic doesn't apply.  Neither side will see the merits or pitfalls of their belief system.  Both sides come across as crass and elitist to the other...

Same ole record - goes round and round...

-DW


----------



## Don Roley

DWeidman said:


> Sounds like ego to me!



To me as well.

Taking a look at the stories about Takamatsu in his youth, you don't see many stories that deal with using matches _*as a learning experience.*_ If we are talking about using randori to better our taijutsu, then you really do not find many cases from the stories about Takamatsu. We also have Nagato's experience as a competitor and his comments looking back on it.

Takamatu's stories about how he proved his abilities in the eyes of others are great, but they do not seem relevant to the conversation at hand.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

"There are two types of fool. One says 'this is old, and therefore good'. The other one says 'this is new, and therefore better'."


----------



## Cryozombie

DWeidman said:


> Instead of stopping and thinking and using the art the way it was applied back when it was useful -- they rely on anedotal tales to explain why they think it should work.



I'm not going to disagree with this, but... The same can be said of Sparring as well, people think Sparring = Real Fighting and don't understand why they get their asses handed to them the first real fight they get into.  

I think this becomes Especially true when sparring becomes a silly game of grabass where you are more concerned about laying hands on the other guy than maintaining proper timing, distance and balance, and you do what I see 90% of the time I have seen sparring matches and tournament "fights"... some dude on his tiptoes on one foot, leaning way forward with his head and extending his arm so he can get the hit...no power, no form, but its a "point".  And in my opinion, one of the reasons this happens, is because a lot of Martial Artists dont have a clue how to spar, having learned it from "Sport arts" who do "point sparring. I'd bet It wasn't common in old systems... I'd venture to guess that most schools didn't _spar_... they went out and FOUGHT.  I think there are subtle differences that a large majority of people who teach sparring, or who spar, just don't get.  (and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory)


----------



## Rook

Cryozombie said:


> I'm not going to disagree with this, but... The same can be said of Sparring as well, people think Sparring = Real Fighting and don't understand why they get their asses handed to them the first real fight they get into.
> 
> I think this becomes Especially true when sparring becomes a silly game of grabass where you are more concerned about laying hands on the other guy than maintaining proper timing, distance and balance, and you do what I see 90% of the time I have seen sparring matches and tournament "fights"... some dude on his tiptoes on one foot, leaning way forward with his head and extending his arm so he can get the hit...no power, no form, but its a "point". And in my opinion, one of the reasons this happens, is because a lot of Martial Artists dont have a clue how to spar, having learned it from "Sport arts" who do "point sparring. I'd bet It wasn't common in old systems... I'd venture to guess that most schools didn't _spar_... they went out and FOUGHT. I think there are subtle differences that a large majority of people who teach sparring, or who spar, just don't get. (and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory)


 
You do realize that point-fighting is not the type of sparring most people refer to when they say sparring?  Points fighting isn't practiced by the people who are discussing your lack of sparring.  People who talk about pressure testing and so forth (myself included) _never_ use point fighting as a method of development, training or testing.


----------



## Seattletcj

Man, this is hilarious 1 step forward 2 steps back.
It is a fun debate and hopefully someone out there is learning something....otherwise, what a massive waste of time  


Yet another example of 2 ego maniacs going at it. Notice how all technique and form go out the window.....






A pretty good clip of ninpo freeform practice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ9x4l14&mode=related&search=


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> You do realize that point-fighting is not the type of sparring most people refer to when they say sparring?



You may note that he prefaced that comment with the term, _"I think this becomes Especially true"?_

Point sparring is an extreme version of the principles he is talking about and one that we can all see and agree with. There are others that are less visible but no less valid IMO. And that is a very real fear for me.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> A pretty good clip of ninpo freeform practice..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ9x4l14&mode=related&search=


 
I noticed the spelling "budo ninjutsu". Those guys aren't associated with the Bujinkan in Israel anymore if memory serves me correctly. Also, didn't look very "free" to me...a lot of the attacks defended against were pretty lousy.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> You may note that he prefaced that comment with the term, _"I think this becomes Especially true"?_
> 
> Point sparring is an extreme version of the principles he is talking about and one that we can all see and agree with. There are others that are less visible but no less valid IMO. And that is a very real fear for me.


 
I wasn't objecting to your post but rather to cryozombie's where he seemed to have conflated points fighting with sparring in general.  Points fighting is rather different that full contact or even low contact sparring.


----------



## Ronnin

bencole said:


> Just so you do not think that Don is picking on you, Ronnin, I agree with his reprimand. The idea of "surviving" is *NOT* the way that you used it when you were quoting Takamatsu-sensei.
> 
> -ben


 
well it depends how look at winning weather it be survival, or just.........regular. 
You may be able to fight in a controlled (sport) environment with the mentality of, and fight that of a survival situation, you just don't have to break the arm while performing say Oni Kudaki, which you would do in a survival situation, you can take it to the point to where your opponent knows he is defeated and you win. But that's not to say you didn't fight with the "survival" mindset, and aggression. Of course now I am not speaking of randori done in a dojo, but more of a full contact type competition. I am not say what I am saying in this post is correct as I have never entered a comp. But I don't see why it can't happen.


----------



## Ronnin

Cryozombie said:


> Maybe you should go back and read this entire thread before you say the whole thing is about Randori, man.


...........sigh. for the past few pages it's been on randori, and "winning".


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> To me as well.
> 
> Taking a look at the stories about Takamatsu in his youth, you don't see many stories that deal with using matches _*as a learning experience.*_ If we are talking about using randori to better our taijutsu, then you really do not find many cases from the stories about Takamatsu. We also have Nagato's experience as a competitor and his comments looking back on it.
> 
> Takamatu's stories about how he proved his abilities in the eyes of others are great, but they do not seem relevant to the conversation at hand.


I don't think randori betters taijutsu, i think it betters the minds reactability. it also does no good if your taijutsu was excellent, but you cant apply it in a real situation because your mind panics and none of the movements come out. also consider this : *ALL* yes *ALL* military for all countries go to the shooting range and classrooms to learn thier tactics. This is equivalent to our dojo training. then *ALL* countries go to war games. Where the good guys try to "win" against the bad guys and vice versa. win at any means. there's is *NO WAY* any soldier would be worth thier salt in a real firefight, unless he's been through this training.


----------



## Ronnin

Cryozombie said:


> I'm not going to disagree with this, but... The same can be said of Sparring as well, people think Sparring = Real Fighting and don't understand why they get their asses handed to them the first real fight they get into.
> 
> I think this becomes Especially true when sparring becomes a silly game of grabass where you are more concerned about laying hands on the other guy than maintaining proper timing, distance and balance, and you do what I see 90% of the time I have seen sparring matches and tournament "fights"... some dude on his tiptoes on one foot, leaning way forward with his head and extending his arm so he can get the hit...no power, no form, but its a "point". And in my opinion, one of the reasons this happens, is because a lot of Martial Artists dont have a clue how to spar, having learned it from "Sport arts" who do "point sparring. I'd bet It wasn't common in old systems... I'd venture to guess that most schools didn't _spar_... they went out and FOUGHT. I think there are subtle differences that a large majority of people who teach sparring, or who spar, just don't get. (and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory)


I don't think sparring = real fighting, BUT it is the closest we can come to it.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I don't think sparring = real fighting, BUT it is the closest we can come to it.



No, it is not. Do a web search of Peytonn Quinn. *Much* closer to the reality of combat IMO. You may also look into some of the ways kata training is sometimes done in Japan. That is, if you are willing to look deep into the matter and put off making decisions until you have completly mastered the subject matter.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I don't think randori betters taijutsu, i think it betters the minds reactability.



I happen to feel differently. But of course, the question is- is it the *only* way of training the mind to react to unexpected events? As I said, look up Quinn, etc.


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> I wasn't objecting to your post but rather to cryozombie's where he seemed to have conflated points fighting with sparring in general.  Points fighting is rather different that full contact or even low contact sparring.



And all sparring is different from a real fight. And thus they all share the same possible problems that cryofzombie brought up. Maybe in ways that we are not aware of. Just because we do not see certain problems due to our inexperience, does not mean they are not there.


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> I noticed the spelling "budo ninjutsu". Those guys aren't associated with the Bujinkan in Israel anymore if memory serves me correctly.



If thats is what is important to you then cool. I have no idea really.




> Also, didn't look very "free" to me...a lot of the attacks defended against were pretty lousy.


Well it did not seem scripted so thats what made it freeform in my crazy mind.   

As far as the attacks being lousy.....
Can you point to an example of what you think is a good attack ? There are tons of Bujinkan videos out there, I'm sure you can find lots of good examples.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> I noticed the spelling "budo ninjutsu". Those guys aren't associated with the Bujinkan in Israel anymore if memory serves me correctly. Also, didn't look very "free" to me...a lot of the attacks defended against were pretty lousy.



That is kind of how I felt about it as well.

Is this a tape of people doing some sort of test? If so, then they will be judged if they pass a certain standard. Or they may be critiqued on mistakes they made and work on those problems later.

But this is not the standard of taijutsu as I know it. As I have said, I do not feel that I have mastered the standards of the Bujinkan. But I think I have been shown it and am on my way to it while others seem unaware of the standards and wander off on their own path.

If this type of training is frequent, then that means that the habits and skills they have right now are the ones they are burning into themselves for all eternity. And after looking at the standards of the Japanese I train with, I can't say that the habits I saw on that tape are the ones I want to stop at. I am not saying that they are bad, just that their understanding is not where I want to end up in my training.


----------



## exile

Don Roley said:


> No, it is not. Do a web search of Peytonn Quinn. *Much* closer to the reality of combat IMO. You may also look into some of the ways kata training is sometimes done in Japan.



I think this is a very important and constantly overlooked pointpoint fighting, competitive sparring, may help you with making quick decisions on the fly, but given the rules of point sparring or other kinds of sport MA contests, those decisions will very likely be all wrong on the street, because of the way the scoring system of sport MAs determines rewards and penalties. Look at Olympic style TKDtry to get in as many kicks to the head as you can because it's double points? Keep your hands down?? Most definitely, the deep reflexes that sport TKD develops are going to be absolutely horrible responses in a bar fight or an unprovoked, unlooked-for street attack.

The work of Peyton Quinn, Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy (guys who I've chosen for my ideal bodyguards on that thread, so I've put my money where my mouth is!) shows that there is another way: train for the street, not by conventionized sparring, but by all-in fight simulation with minimal protectiontouches to the eye count for eye gouges, a minimal impact sick kick to groin or side of the knee counts for a scrotum- or joint-bursting version of the real thing; but apart from that, it's street rules only. 

There is a _lot_ of work along these lines. For example, instead of the kind of conventional attack/defense sequences that the street-useless `official' bunkai for TKD forms advocate, and which a lot of one-step training is based on, why not first make a careful study of the most common kinds of _real_ street attackssucker punches, head butts, grabs from behind with the attacker's mates holding while he moves into position to smash your face in, etcand then working out counters to those? Bill Burgar's book, _Five Years, One Kata_, actually does this, with photos. He's done a fair bit of research on the most common assault patternsI believe he's relied heavily on Geoff Thompson's work hereand shows, based on his intensive five-year study and practice of _a single kata_ how well traditional kata supply sequences of fighting techs specifically designed to counter just these attacks, typically before the attacher gets a chance to launch them. Not surprising, when you consider that the early Okinawan, Japanese and Korean MA masters were training themselves, and their students, to know how to keep themselves in one piece in a world which was far harsher than the one most of us in the West have to live in.

I'd like to see more attention given to this approach to structured combat training (a description that I think gives a much better feel for what's involved than the word `sparring' or its Japanese equivalent `kumite' and so on). The one problem with it is that, from what I've seen and the little I've done of it, it is very scary and unpleasant. But the whole point is, it sort of _has_ to be in order to be effective...


----------



## Cryozombie

Rook said:


> You do realize that point-fighting is not the type of sparring most people refer to when they say sparring?



You may note that I prefaced that comment with the term, _"I think this  becomes Especially true" _and ended it with_ "__and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory"?


_


----------



## Cryozombie

Rook said:


> I wasn't objecting to your post but rather to cryozombie's where he seemed to have conflated points fighting with sparring in general.  Points fighting is rather different that full contact or even low contact sparring.



And, Rook, I have seen plenty of those Stripmall schools do "Sparring" exactly the way I described... just because it didn't fit your definition of sparring didn't stop the school from calling it sparring or teaching it in their sparring class, buddy.  Which was exactly my point... the mistaken notion that this type of "sparring" was not equal to "real fighting"


----------



## Ronnin

This is for Don who said in my rep. box I misquoted Takamatsu on purpose !!!!!!!

"The essence of all martial arts and military strategies is self-protection and the prevention of danger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit as well. The way of the ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that would destroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significance than the simple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way of attaining that which we need while making the world a better place. *The skill of the ninja is the art of winning.&#8221;*

*-Toshitsugu Takamatsu*

Yet another








The "Ninjutsu Hiketsu Bun" (essay on essence of ninjutsu) written by Takamatsu Sensei 


The essence of all Martial Arts and military strategies is self protection and the prevention ofdanger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection through martial training in thatthe Ninja art deals with the protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit aswell. The way of the Ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that woulddestroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significanse than thesimple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way off attaining that which we need whilemaking the world a better place. *The skill of the Ninja is the art of winning*. In the beginning study of any combative art, propermotivation is crucial. Without the proper frame of mind, continous exposure to fightingtechniques can lead to ruin instead of self-development. But this fact is not different from anyother beneficial practice in life carried to extremes. Medical science is dedicated to the betterment of health and the relief of suffering, and yet themisuse of drugs and the exultation of the physician's skills can lead people to a state where anindividual's health is no longer within his or her personal control. A nutritious well-balanceddiet works to keep a person alive, vital, and healthy, but grossly over-eating, over-drinking, ortaking in too many chemicals is a sure way to poison the body. Governments are established to oversee the harmonious inter-working of all parts of society,but when the rulers become greedy, hungry for power, or lacking in wisdom, the country issubjected to needless wars, disorder or civil and economic chaos. A religion, when based on faith developed through experience, a broad and questing mind, andunflagging pursuit of universal understanding, is of inspiration and comfort to people. Once areligion loses its original focus, however, it becomes a deadly thing with which to deceive,control and tax the people through the manipulation of their beliefs and fears. It is the same with the martial arts. The skills of self-protection, which should provide a feelingof inner peace and security for the martial artist, so often develop without a balance in thepersonality and lead the lesser martial artist into warped realms of unceasing conflict andcompetition which eventually consume him. If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of NINJUTSU, devoid of theinfluence of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secretfor becoming invincible - the attainment of the "mind and eyes of god". The combatant who wouldwin must be in harmony with the scheme of totality, and must be guided by an intuitiveknowledge of the playing out of fate. In tune with the providence of heaven and the impartial justice of nature, and following a clearand pure heart full of trust in the inevitable, the NINJA captures the insight that will guide himsuccessfully into battle when he must conquer and conceal himself protectively from hostilitywhen he must acquiesce. The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good orbad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind,the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just aschange is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise forthe Ninja.

I can bring more if you like. I said the wrong book. You need to be a man of honor and take off that ding in my rep box !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Ronnin said:


> This is for Don who said in my rep. box I misquoted Takamatsu on purpose !!!!!!!
> 
> "The essence of all martial arts and military strategies is self-protection and the prevention of danger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit as well. The way of the ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that would destroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significance than the simple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way of attaining that which we need while making the world a better place. *The skill of the ninja is the art of winning.*
> 
> *-Toshitsugu Takamatsu*
> 
> Yet another
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "Ninjutsu Hiketsu Bun" (essay on essence of ninjutsu) written by Takamatsu Sensei
> 
> 
> The essence of all Martial Arts and military strategies is self protection and the prevention ofdanger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection through martial training in thatthe Ninja art deals with the protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit aswell. The way of the Ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that woulddestroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significanse than thesimple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way off attaining that which we need whilemaking the world a better place. *The skill of the Ninja is the art of winning*. In the beginning study of any combative art, propermotivation is crucial. Without the proper frame of mind, continous exposure to fightingtechniques can lead to ruin instead of self-development. But this fact is not different from anyother beneficial practice in life carried to extremes. Medical science is dedicated to the betterment of health and the relief of suffering, and yet themisuse of drugs and the exultation of the physician's skills can lead people to a state where anindividual's health is no longer within his or her personal control. A nutritious well-balanceddiet works to keep a person alive, vital, and healthy, but grossly over-eating, over-drinking, ortaking in too many chemicals is a sure way to poison the body. Governments are established to oversee the harmonious inter-working of all parts of society,but when the rulers become greedy, hungry for power, or lacking in wisdom, the country issubjected to needless wars, disorder or civil and economic chaos. A religion, when based on faith developed through experience, a broad and questing mind, andunflagging pursuit of universal understanding, is of inspiration and comfort to people. Once areligion loses its original focus, however, it becomes a deadly thing with which to deceive,control and tax the people through the manipulation of their beliefs and fears. It is the same with the martial arts. The skills of self-protection, which should provide a feelingof inner peace and security for the martial artist, so often develop without a balance in thepersonality and lead the lesser martial artist into warped realms of unceasing conflict andcompetition which eventually consume him. If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of NINJUTSU, devoid of theinfluence of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secretfor becoming invincible - the attainment of the "mind and eyes of god". The combatant who wouldwin must be in harmony with the scheme of totality, and must be guided by an intuitiveknowledge of the playing out of fate. In tune with the providence of heaven and the impartial justice of nature, and following a clearand pure heart full of trust in the inevitable, the NINJA captures the insight that will guide himsuccessfully into battle when he must conquer and conceal himself protectively from hostilitywhen he must acquiesce. The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good orbad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind,the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just aschange is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise forthe Ninja.
> 
> I can bring more if you like. I said the wrong book. You need to be a man of honor and take off that ding in my rep box !!!!!!!!!!


 
I do hope you're aware of the fact that History and Tradition was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes, a man not particularly known for his understanding of the Japanese language? :angel:


----------



## Ronnin

Nimravus said:


> I do hope you're aware of the fact that History and Tradition was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes, a man not particularly known for his understanding of the Japanese language? :angel:


none of this is from History and Tradition.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

That's where the translation you're quoting first appeared.


----------



## Ronnin

Nimravus said:


> That's where the translation you're quoting first appeared.


 
oh, i didn't get it from there, but i doubt Hatsumi would let SKH publish something *Misquoting Takamatsu.*


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bummer.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> This is for Don who said in my rep. box I misquoted Takamatsu on purpose !!!!!!!



Wrong.

And you seem to be missing a lot of the points going on. You should work on that. I would not say that you are purposefully misquoting Takamatsu- rather you are reading what you want into what he says. 

While you are at it, as I have said, you need to take a more appropriate attitude for someone of your limited experience and knowledge. Many people are willing to help those that know less than them. But they are less eager to do so when they seem intent (as you are) at being thought right rather than getting the right answer.

For example, if you had known more about History and Tradition, you might not have said what you did about Hatsumi letting Hayes publish a misquote. It is all common knowledge here. If you take a few days to go back over old threads you might understand things like this.


----------



## Cryozombie

Geez Don, come on this thread is about randori, He's not talking about points or takamatsu:



Ronnin said:


> Were are talking about randori.




:wink2:


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> Wrong.
> 
> And you seem to be missing a lot of the points going on. You should work on that. I would not say that you are purposefully misquoting Takamatsu- rather you are reading what you want into what he says.
> 
> While you are at it, as I have said, you need to take a more appropriate attitude for someone of your limited experience and knowledge. Many people are willing to help those that know less than them. But they are less eager to do so when they seem intent (as you are) at being thought right rather than getting the right answer.
> 
> For example, if you had known more about History and Tradition, you might not have said what you did about Hatsumi letting Hayes publish a misquote. It is all common knowledge here. If you take a few days to go back over old threads you might understand things like this.


 
"Misquoting Takamatsu on purpose"
There it is, that's what you said. How should I have taken that?


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> "Misquoting Takamatsu on purpose"
> There it is, that's what you said. How should I have taken that?



Because I didn't say it. I have never given you reputation.

Were you not listening the first time?


----------



## Varg05R6

At the risk of jumping in the deep end here I think a system that can't be tried can't be trusted.  

In Muay Thai I learned techniques and movements and was then placed in the ring in a sparring situation to see how to apply them.  And while I will argue that what happens in the ring isn't what happens in a real fight I learned valuable lessons in timing, distance & evasion which I would never (had never!) have learned from kata alone.  I also learned (over time) how to take a hit.  For those who haven't experienced a solid blow to the head all I can say is it can be debilitating.  Stop you dead in your tracks sort of stuff.  

The main thing I learned was to conquer the fear and adrenaline dump involved when someone is really trying to knock you out.  My regular sparring partner was 108kg of muscle & had 10+ years of experience in Muay Thai.  Since facing off against him (and being knocked out a time or two in hard sparring) I find it much easier to deal with the adrenaline dump of an intense conflict situaton.  Indeed nobody who has shown aggression towards me has scared me nearly as much as he did! Initially...

While I have no experience (yet!) of Bujinkan I believe that someone who has trained in a high pressure situation where they have learned to deal with the very real fear of being hurt has an incalculable advantage over one who hasn't.  I don't know if randori classes as this...?

I don't advocate hard & heavy training all the time but to understand self defence you must be put in a situation where you really feel that you must defend yourself to avoid being hurt.

Just my 2c, and with all respect to others who feel differently.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Varg05R6 said:


> And while I will argue that what happens in the ring isn't what happens in a real fight I learned valuable lessons in timing, distance & evasion which I would never (had never!) have learned from kata alone.


 
Depends a little bit on how it's practiced. There's more to kata than just performing and repeating techniques, at least from a Bujinkan perspective.



Varg05R6 said:


> The main thing I learned was to conquer the fear and adrenaline dump involved when someone is really trying to knock you out. My regular sparring partner was 108kg of muscle & had 10+ years of experience in Muay Thai. Since facing off against him (and being knocked out a time or two in hard sparring) I find it much easier to deal with the adrenaline dump of an intense conflict situaton.


 
Now imagine having to deal with the fear involved when you think you're supposed to be practicing kata in a calm, controlled manner, and he doesn't.


----------



## exile

Nimravus said:


> Depends a little bit on how it's practiced. There's more to kata than just performing and repeating techniques, at least from a Bujinkan perspective.



_Exactly!!_

Burgar, in his book, makes the nice observation that people make a fundamental confusion about kata: they think that the ultimate goal of kata practice is training the _performance_ rather than the _application_. And to practice the application, you first need to understand what it would make those movements useful in the kind of combat that the art was designed to prepare you for. Those `dance steps' that appear to besimultaneous rising and outward middle blocks followed by some utterly impractical trapping motion, which look totally useless unless your assailant does exactly the stylized choreographed steps that the `official' bunkai assumemaybe that's not what's intended at all! Much more realistic interpretations of what the kata is telling you to do in the event of a common street attack exist that assume no compliance at all on the attacker's part; everything you do forces his subsequent moves. Once you's worked out that combat application of the first two or three moves of the kata, _that's_ what you practicewith a partner who is throwing since punch at you (it might be advisable to wear some protective gear once you decide to train like this). 

What you're training is not the stylized kata-ballet, though performing that ballet correctly makes it clear to you just what the movement in the kata are supposed to be. But the movements aren't themselves the combat _moves._ You have to work those out, and once you do, _that's_ what you practice, against a noncompliant partner who is willing to rough you up a bit if you're not responding accurately. Training kata from this angle is training for simple, effective combat moves at the close quarters where real fights (as vs. one-step sequences where the `combatants' start off eight or ten feet from each other ). 

This kind of practice conforms I think to Don's point earlier about `winning'. You aren't training this way to gain points or even to kock your opponent over with an impressive spinning kick two feet off the ground. No one is keeping score, and it's not a contest, but rather simulation of a real, ugly fight. The closer that simulation is to the real thing, the more likely you'll survive such an encounter in reasonably good shape. That's what all traditional MAs were created to do, so far as I know, but you have to practice applying the techs they're making available to you under conditions as realistic as you can get. 

And that's why, I suspect, people don't train that way. There's no glory, or fun in it, and you can get seriously hurt if you rush to do it at real-fight speeds before you're ready, or if your attention wanders, or... I suspect people like practicing kata performance, without going on to work out the apps, and like the kind of sparring that sport TKD and sport karate have become somewhat notorious for, because the kind of `sparring' for real fights I've described is... too intimidating and dangerous. MAs are tools for fighting; at some level, I've come to suspect, a lot of people who do MAs just don't like the idea that they may have to actuall _fight_, and fight a certain way, if danger comes to them. The adepts of the MAs of a couple of centuries ago probably didn't either; the difference is, for the most part, they had no choicethey didn't have police forces, or courts, or any of the whole legal/justice/enforcement system that we do, to keep them safe. Because we do, training is a luxury for most of usbut it was a necessity for them, and they trained accordingly. We can train the same way, but it's gonna hurt.


----------



## bencole

bencole said:
			
		

> There is a reason why the uke keeps his arm out when he punches in the Bujinkan. *It is important to not toss aside this lesson just because other people do not punch like that.*
> 
> You can still have "alive training" and be the attacker with the arm out. Rather than tossing the practice aside because it seems "antiquated" or "not real," *why not try to make it real through practice*?


 
So we have had some interesting responses to my urging of students to not throw things away merely because they do not understand them yet....



Seattletcj said:


> To say that punching and leaving your arm out in space is a good habit really boggles my mind. Especially when you, or he has a weapon.


 


			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Would you think it wise to leave a punch out in the air like that against someone with that kind of experience...I shudder to think what my sensei would do to me in randori if I left a limb out for him to grasp *closes eyes and see sensei smiling with glee at the opportunity.*


 
I am honestly not surprised to see that these individuals have not said that they have actually taken the time to try to figure out why the extended arm is valuable.... Instead, they conjure up reasons why they shouldn't do it, without actually learning why they *SHOULD*....

I have even given you an "out" by allowing you to practice the "arm out" in "alive training." If you cannot understand that the arm extended shapes the space, allows you access to new opportunities and does not preclude you from downing your opponent with power and control, then you have not spent enough time with it. 

All you guys seem to be interested in "testing yourself," but you seem afraid to try to test something inherent in the art that you are supposedly learning. (shake head)

Please, please, please use your brain when practicing this!!! 

I am *NOT* saying that you should punch, leave your arm out, and stand there like a statue. I am saying, punch (without retracting) and notice how the space changes now that the hand is there, and how your own footwork around your arm changes the opportunities available to you and your opponent.

Rubber Tanto said that he would "shudder to think what his sensei would do to him if he left a limb out to grasp." Why? How does your footwork and use of your spine affect his opportunity to grasp that arm? It's kind hard to grasp the arm if the hand is being shoved into the throat, or is coming in with repeated thrusts, or the footwork *AROUND* the arm of the arm holder is taking new angles such that "grasping" becomes a source of unbalance for the grabber. Does moving the hand vertically or horizontally (naturally THROUGH the body's Taijutsu) alter these opportunities or risks?

There are a *LOT* of things that can and will go on with that "arm out."

If you cannot control someone with your arm out, then your Taijutsu is not as good as you think. You should take this as an indication that you need to look more closely at what the art is teaching BEFORE tossing it in the trash bin.

-ben


----------



## bencole

bencole said:


> See if you can figure out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the bo (and *WITHOUT* your teacher)


 
So how did it go, Ronnin?

-ben


----------



## Ronnin

bencole said:


> So how did it go, Ronnin?
> 
> -ben


I am not with my sensei anymore. I haven't been for a while. I've talking to some other dojos here.


----------



## Ronnin

Don Roley said:


> Because I didn't say it. I have never given you reputation.
> 
> Were you not listening the first time?


I'm not talking to you anymore, you deny what's right in front of you. That is your comment I cut and paisted. I cannot believe you will not admit to this. You bring out the worst of me so I don't want to talk to you anymore. I want to get back on topic.


----------



## bencole

Ronnin said:


> I am not with my sensei anymore. I haven't been for a while. I've talking to some other dojos here.


 
If you look back at my original request, I said that you should get together with a friend *WITHOUT* your teacher and try to figure out how to do Uchi Age *WITHOUT* a weapon.

I do not see why not being with your teacher anymore should hinder this exploration....

-ben


----------



## bencole

Ronnin said:


> I'm not talking to you anymore, you deny what's right in front of you. That is your comment I cut and paisted. I cannot believe you will not admit to this.


 
How do you know if was Don, and not someone else, who docked your reputation?

-ben


----------



## makoto-dojo

Hello guys,

Ya know I understand that different people have different opinions on things. But I think we should be careful to still respect each other at least while on the board.

No reason to get heated. I think there have been many good points from everyone personally. Even if I don't agree with some of them, at least people are posting well thought out ideas. It makes for good reading and debate.

Just so everyone knows, As far as my involvement in this, I am only enjoy a good spirited debate. I hope I have not come off argumentative in any way. I truly do enjoy all of your thoughtful posts and respect your experience and opinions.

There are a few people who I have to reply to, but I cannot right now, I will try to get back tonight or tomorrow.

Keep going in good spirit!

Sincerely,


----------



## Seattletcj

Seattletcj said:


> As far as the attacks being lousy.....
> Can you point to an example of what you think is a good attack ? There are tons of Bujinkan videos out there, I'm sure you can find lots of good examples.



I find it interesting that this simple challenge has been conviently ignored. Maybe it was just lost in the shuffle.
[SIZE=-1]Originally[/SIZE] Don and Nimravus commented that the attacks in this video were lousy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ...elated&search=

Can anyone find a good example of an uke attack ?
There are literally hundreds of BJK clips on youtube and googlevideo, many of them from high ranking members. Can you produce one clip ?

Not trying to start trouble. Just a simple request.


----------



## Ronnin

bencole said:


> How do you know if was Don, and not someone else, who docked your reputation?
> 
> -ben


well when i clicked on it it takes me to his posts. If it is not him who said it I will owe him an apology, and i will give it.


----------



## Carol

There was a somewhat infamous exchange in American Kenpo that happened here in Boston.   If my memory serves me correctly, this was an exchange between Mr. Huk Planas (SGM Parker's EVP at the time of his passing) and Mr. Tony Cogliandro (one of the highest ranked Kenpo instructors in the Northeast), during a student's test for 2nd or 3rd Black.

The student did not perform his Kenpo to the satisfaction of the attending senior.  The senior said he wouldn't award the new rank to the student.  The instructor was very upset.  "But, he's so good at sparring,"  the instructor insisted.

"Then give him a black belt in sparring," the senior responded, "and not in American Kenpo."

The way I see it...sparring is a lot of things.  It can be a lot of fun and a great adrenaline rush and a way to try new things all sorts of stuff like that.  But the Bujinkan teaches Taijutsu, the students pay for Taijutsu instruction and expect to learn Taijutsu, not "all sorts of stuff like that".


----------



## Carol

Ronnin said:


> well when i clicked on it it takes me to his posts. If it is not him who said it I will owe him an apology, and i will give it.


 
Just as an fyi...

When you (anyone) click on a link in the reputation section, it will open a new browser window will take you to *your* post that received the reputation score.  Your post will be at the top of the screen.

The site administrators have stated in many parts of the board that if you (anyone) has any concerns about the reputation system or the process, to contact them (the administratrors) with your concerns.  

Anyway...back to the sparring discussion...


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> And all sparring is different from a real fight. And thus they all share the same possible problems that cryofzombie brought up. Maybe in ways that we are not aware of. Just because we do not see certain problems due to our inexperience, does not mean they are not there.


 
I don't think I have ever discussed my experiance on the internet, so I don't know how you can draw conclusions about what it is or is not.  Every violent physical altercation I have ever been in I have sucessfully used the exact same techniques the exact same way I have done in sparring.  However, BBT would work with very different techniques than I use, so I can see how it might be a more sensitive issue.


----------



## shinbushi

exile said:


> The work of Peyton Quinn, Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy (guys who I've chosen for my ideal bodyguards on that thread, so I've put my money where my mouth is!) .


On the other side of the coin you have 


> *Tony Blauer From MMA.tv on 01-Jan-03 11:56 AM *    SPORT VS STREET, for some reason is so misunderstood and I think part of the reason is over-simplifying the literalness of things.
> WIthout fully understanding the 'SPEAR SYSTEM' defintion of the 'street' , arguing over a 'semantics' point seems silly.
> *The methodolgies of most systems that really work are very similar. Is there contact? Sparring? Ground work? Conditioning? and so on...*
> Generally speaking, everyone teaches the same stuff, but we all know, they dont and as we've all read on the infomercial disclimer's: results may vary
> The bottomline is the clarity of the defintion. As in most comparisons, the differnences are in the subtleties...
> Someone once asked me, in context of strategy & tactics, what the most important aspect of the fight was...
> That simple, I replied: the result.
> "The will to win, compares little with the 'will' to prepare to win." -COach Bear Bryant
> Happy New Year all.
> *[FONT=&quot]Tony [/FONT]*


----------



## DWeidman

Carol Kaur said:


> ...But the Bujinkan teaches Taijutsu, the students pay for Taijutsu instruction and expect to learn Taijutsu, not "all sorts of stuff like that".



What if the Bujinkan teaches a warrior tradition of combat fighting methods?

But... the training you get doesn't allow you to fight well...

???

Then is simply using a _rediculously_ _generic _word for "Body... art" an excuse for not teaching usuable skills?



-DW


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> If this type of training is frequent, then that means that the habits and skills they have right now are the ones they are burning into themselves for all eternity. And after looking at the standards of the Japanese I train with, I can't say that the habits I saw on that tape are the ones I want to stop at. I am not saying that they are bad, just that their understanding is not where I want to end up in my training.



You mean the shihan today have the same habits they had when they were using randori back with Hatsumi Sensei in the 60/70s?

Or is it possible to learn from the sparring and then readjust your normal training accordingly?

Oh wait -- that is right -- they had PERFECT TAIJUTSU back then.  Or else they couldn't spar - right?  And they have done what for the past 40 yrs???

-DW


----------



## Rook

DWeidman said:


> What if the Bujinkan teaches a warrior tradition of combat fighting methods?
> 
> But... the training you get doesn't allow you to fight well...
> 
> ???
> 
> Then is simply using a _rediculously_ _generic _word for "Body... art" an excuse for not teaching usuable skills?
> 
> 
> 
> -DW


 
What I would say is that if a person is being told they will learn BBT, or any other art, they should be learning that art, and not an poor imitation of another martial art.  I keep seeing stuff where supposedly traditional schools in BBT, Genbukan, kung fu, JJJ, karate, TKD end up doing a third rate approximation of kickboxing or BJJ.


----------



## Seattletcj

Rook,

Thats a valid concern IMO.

I think the point Daniel is getting at though is that most often Bujinkan is advertised/described as being a comprehensive battlefield fighting art, used for real combat.

Meanwhile, actual performance in that context is not a concern.


----------



## Rook

Seattletcj said:


> Rook,
> 
> Thats a valid concern IMO.
> 
> I think the point Daniel is getting at though is that most often Bujinkan is advertised/described as being a comprehensive battlefield fighting art, used for real combat.
> 
> Meanwhile, actual performance in that context is not a concern.


 
Thats true.


----------



## Don Roley

DWeidman said:


> You mean the shihan today have the same habits they had when they were using randori back with Hatsumi Sensei in the 60/70s?
> 
> Or is it possible to learn from the sparring and then readjust your normal training accordingly?
> 
> Oh wait -- that is right -- they had PERFECT TAIJUTSU back then.  Or else they couldn't spar - right?  And they have done what for the past 40 yrs???
> 
> -DW



Well, I take it to mean that they had their basics down to an extent that most of us still do not have. Seriously, the amount of people that have their knees in the right angle and use them to full extent is not one in a hundred based on my observations. You take a look at some of the people working out with Hatsumi and most of them do not even seem to be _trying_ to copy what Hatsumi does.

So the old shihan had these little things in place and did limited sparring/randori. And because they knew what the basics were, they burned those habits into them deeper. Or their bad habits came out and were corrected.

But when the gaijin students did it back in their home country they were not even aware of what was right and what was wrong. (And most people _still_ seem unaware of the full extent of that.) And so they made small mistakes during sparring, were not caught as they would have under Hatsumi's eyes, and burned those bad habits into them.


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I'm not talking to you anymore, you deny what's right in front of you. That is your comment I cut and paisted. I cannot believe you will not admit to this. You bring out the worst of me so I don't want to talk to you anymore. I want to get back on topic.



Where did you cut and paste it from? Because if it was from your rep box, it was not from me. I have never given you rep.

I think that in the future if you want to get back on a topic, then you do not talk about anything other than the topic. Otherwise it sounds like you are trying to get in the last accusation/ word.

Who was your teacher? Some people have already stated that they believe you were never a Bujinkan student, but maybe connected with one of the fake groups and your presence here is just to cause problems for the Bujinkan. Some of us are expecting to see you announce in a few weeks time how you found "real, effective" ninjutsu with the Dux ryu group in SoCal or another group like that.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> Meanwhile, actual performance in that context is not a concern.



There have been several people I know of that credit Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for saving their lives. Considering just how few groups have standards that would pass complete muster in Japan, that is amazing.

Of course, since the older practicioners are quite capable in what they do, it seems logical to me to see what they are doing and try to follow their example instead of striking out on our own.


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> There have been several people I know of that credit Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for saving their lives.



I also know  one person who says his budo taijutsu helped him in Iraq. I dont doubt him. But....I have also heard stories of people who credit their taekwondo skills for saving their lives.




> Of course, since the older practicioners are quite capable in what they do, it seems logical to me to see what they are doing and try to follow their example instead of striking out on our own.


ok....
Yes, they are very good at what they do.....but is what they "do" the goal?
Defining what they do exactly, is important. 


No clips yet?

:jediduel:


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> ok....
> Yes, they are very good at what they do.....but is what they "do" the goal?
> Defining what they do exactly, is important.



In other words, are they the end result and we should be looking at how they got there rather than what they are doing now? Seems a valid point.

I know that Hatsumi's classes are geared for advanced students, even thought it seems that few people bother with the basics before showing up. But I have been dealing with a few shihan here and they ahve been giving me advice and instruction on what the work for at the basic level. It really is a great learning experience and I advise everyone to spend more time with the shihans rather than only go to class with Hatsumi.

Some of the things they say they did in the early days, as well as the reasons why they did them and why they don't do them are very informative.


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> In other words, are they the end result and we should be looking at how they got there rather than what they are doing now? Seems a valid point.



Well...not what I was getting at. But ya, that too. 

 Probably an unintentional straw man on your part due to my bad wording.
I'll try it again.

So, you said that the older practitioners are quite capable at what they do, and that it would be logical to follow their example in order to mimic what they are doing.

I also believe that they are very capable at what they do.
I asked: what is it they do, exactly?  Is what they do the goal?

This is going to be tricky, because what they "do" is very specific IMO.
Is it my overall goal to look like the senior practitioners, and move like the senior practitioners in that specific environment? No.


----------



## Ronnin

Rook said:


> What I would say is that if a person is being told they will learn BBT, or any other art, they should be learning that art, and not an poor imitation of another martial art. I keep seeing stuff where supposedly traditional schools in BBT, Genbukan, kung fu, JJJ, karate, TKD end up doing a third rate approximation of kickboxing or BJJ.


I think this is because people begin to panic in the heat of it all, and then resort back to the basic school ground ryu. I f people put more trust in thier technique ( some will say trust will come from a randori type training ) and stick to thier technique then they wouldn't resort back to school ground ryu. I think it all comes down to trust and the lack there of.


----------



## Rook

Ronnin said:


> I think this is because people begin to panic in the heat of it all, and then resort back to the basic school ground ryu. I f people put more trust in thier technique ( some will say trust will come from a randori type training ) and stick to their technique then they wouldn't resort back to school ground ryu. I think it all comes down to trust and the lack there of.


 
I agree.  Thats what the term "personal pressure testing" means - that you see whether or not you personally can maintain your structure, technique, focus and strategy under pressure.  If it doesn't then you can look at what to practice accordingly.  Alot of people either flip out and start throwing wild haymakers until they get picked apart or start cowering in a cramped posture - and its alot better that this happens 100 times in the dojo until you get used to being hit and thrown and countered against and still maintain your composure than to have the crap hit the fan in the street.


----------



## Ronnin

Rook said:


> I agree. Thats what the term "personal pressure testing" means - that you see whether or not you personally can maintain your structure, technique, focus and strategy under pressure. If it doesn't then you can look at what to practice accordingly. Alot of people either flip out and start throwing wild haymakers until they get picked apart or start cowering in a cramped posture - and its alot better that this happens 100 times in the dojo until you get used to being hit and thrown and countered against and still maintain your composure than to have the crap hit the fan in the street.


I agree 100%


----------



## exile

Seattletcj said:


> I also know  one person who says his budo taijutsu helped him in Iraq. I dont doubt him. But....I have also heard stories of people who credit their taekwondo skills for saving their lives.



I'm not surprised. The South Korean military trains TKD as their H2H backup for last-resort combat when weapons are unavailableeffectively enough that in the Vietnam war, the Viet Cong military command issued a directive to VC infantry to avoid contact with ROK infantry _specifically because of the latter's combat training in TKD_. I've come to believe that any martial art that has stood the test of time has done so because, and only because, it has given its practitioners a marked survival advantage. 

But it has to be remembered that these troops aren't trained to score points under Olympic ring competition rules and conditions. The Japanse special tactical police who undergo `Police' training in Shotokan aren't either. Both groups are trained to cripple and, if necessary, kill their opponents, and the form of that training reflects this grim but necessary objective. I cannot imagine that effective training in Ninjutsuor in any of the other innumerable CMAs, KMAs, JMAs or Indonesian/Oceanic MAsis any different in this respect. What it comes down to is how you train. I do believe that for any of the TMAs, if your training objective is the partial or total destruction of your opponent, your art gives you more than enough resources to achieve that goal. You just have to be willing to train for that, and I think a lot of people probably _aren't_ willing to do that. _If_ you are, more power to you!


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> Is it my overall goal to look like the senior practitioners, and move like the senior practitioners in that specific environment? No.



Then I do not understand why you study Bujinkan and claim to teach it.

Honestly. I think it is only natural that we try to be like the guys at the top of our art.

And Ronnin, despite your recent PM to me where you called me, among other things, a mental midget, I am repeating my question on your claims of training in the Bujinkan. I was not the one to first raise that possibility, but the more you post and the way you evade and react, the more I am coming to their way of thinking.


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> And Ronnin, despite your recent PM to me where you called me, among other things, a mental midget, I am repeating my question on your claims of training in the Bujinkan. I was not the one to first raise that possibility, but the more you post and the way you evade and react, the more I am coming to their way of thinking.



He knows of the BJK guys in the area -- and knows enough about them for me to assume he is legit as an Ex-BJK guy at this point.

Anything else?

-DW


----------



## Don Roley

Well Dan, so far he is reacting more like some of the guys like those from the Saito ryu and less like real practicioners. And finding out about the guys in SoCal is not that difficult if you are in the area. So my instincts are going off. The following is kind of one of the things that sets it off.



Ronnin said:


> I am not saying I don't understand why we do the things we do, and I also realize that we do a lot of things where in time the truth behind it reveals itself, I have infact written many essays on the subject of the hidden purpose,



Dan, are you aware of any hidden moves, etc in the kata? It sounds like Ronnin is not only aware of them, but written many essays about them despite being in the Bujinkan for only two or so years.

And considering just how nasty some of the folks we have run across, and how they have tried to be deceptive, it is a valid concern. I have said it before, when people start won't even say who their teacher was, it is time to treat them like they were lying. So far, we do not know the name of whoever Ronnin claims to have taught him.

At first I just thought that Ronnin was being young, egotistical and stubborn about doing things like writing essays on hidden stuff after only two years, leaving a teacher even though (according to his story) he was not learning anything bad, etc. Now I am not so sure. It is more about how he is unwilling to answer questions than anything else that sets off the alarms.

So, I think it safe to assume that he is not and never has been a Bujinkan member. Just that should be easy to prove. The only reason I can think of him not wanting to is that he is being decietful. If he really wants us to believe he was a Bujinkan member, then he can. If he does not care enough to prove it to us, then he does not care enough to complain when we treat him as if he was not.


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Well Dan, so far he is reacting more like some of the guys like those from the Saito ryu and less like real practicioners. And finding out about the guys in SoCal is not that difficult if you are in the area. So my instincts are going off. The following is kind of one of the things that sets it off.



Fair enough.  Like I said -- he seems to know enough about the local guys... so it appears legit at the surface.  I haven't met him yet though... will let you know what happens when I do.

;-)

-DW


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> In other words, are they the end result and we should be looking at how they got there rather than what they are doing now? Seems a valid point.
> 
> I know that Hatsumi's classes are geared for advanced students, even thought it seems that few people bother with the basics before showing up. But I have been dealing with a few shihan here and they ahve been giving me advice and instruction on what the work for at the basic level. It really is a great learning experience and I advise everyone to spend more time with the shihans rather than only go to class with Hatsumi.
> 
> Some of the things they say they did in the early days, as well as the reasons why they did them and why they don't do them are very informative.


 

When anyone makes it to Japan they would be very wise indeed to train with as many Shihan as possible.  That would of course be on top of going to all of the classes taught by Hatsumi Soke. (lot's and lot's of training)


----------



## stephen

Brian R. VanCise said:


> When anyone makes it to Japan they would be very wise indeed to train with as many Shihan as possible.  That would of course be on top of going to all of the classes taught by Hatsumi Soke. (lot's and lot's of training)




To be honest, I go to Soke's to be inspired. I go the the Shihan to actually learn. Soke is just too over my head.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

stephen said:


> To be honest, I go to Soke's to be inspired. I go the the Shihan to actually learn. Soke is just too over my head.


 
Stephen you are not the first person or the last to ever say that.  I have been standing next to a Shihan and they asked me what did he just do?  If you have not experienced it and you practice Budo Taijutsu then I would really, really implore you to get to Japan and experience training with Soke and the Japanese Shihan.


----------



## saru1968

Seattletcj said:


> .....it would be logical to follow their example in order to mimic what they are doing.


 

But is that not the entire point.. from the 'Top' we are being told not to train certain ways because it creates bad habits. This seems straightforward to me. If the object is to get 'where' they are, should we not be following that advice?

I wonder how many of those that train would argue the point at Honbu with Soke or the Shihan? or indeed start doing a bit of sparring when they really should just be following the advice given.


----------



## DWeidman

saru1968 said:


> I wonder how many of those that train would argue the point at Honbu with Soke or the Shihan? or indeed start doing a bit of sparring when they really should just be following the advice given.



I wouldn't argue the point.  But... I think for myself, thank you very much.

YMMV.

-DW


----------



## saru1968

DWeidman said:


> I wouldn't argue the point. But... I think for myself, thank you very much.
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> -DW


 
Are you saying that by thinking for yourself you disregard the advice of your peers and those that have gone before you?

Nothing wrong with wanting to do your own thing i suppose or thinking you know better, you life i suppose but i'd hate to waste years training a certain way and then be told it was all wrong especially if you were told this beforehand danny.


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> Then I do not understand why you study Bujinkan and claim to teach it.
> 
> Honestly. I think it is only natural that we try to be like the guys at the top of our art.



I guess I'm not getting my point across well. 
My goal is not to become profecient in dojo-jutsu. I do not want to do what the seniors in Japan do. What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .
They are very good at what they do. That is why I said , it is important to define exactly what they do. If your goal is to look like  them, then yes mimic everything they do. 

Here is a relevant article that may clarify my position:
(BTW, I dont see this as gospel. But I do think it makes some very interesting and important points.)


> *Why                  doesn't everyone train Alive?"*
> by Matt Thornton
> 
> Over the last several Years I have made a point in my classes,                  articles, videos, and seminars around the world, to preach the                  message of &#8216;Aliveness&#8217;. I made this my primary objective                  because in the very moment of the understanding of what Aliveness                  is comes freedom from the ritual, hierarchy, and nonsense that                  is Martial Arts. When a person actually understands what Aliveness                  means they are from that point forward immune to ever being deceived                  again, at least within the realm of Martial Arts. So essentially,                  Aliveness is the truth that sets Martial Artists free from the                  lies and deceptions of the &#8216;classical mess&#8217;.
> It has been my experience that once a person gains an understanding                  of Aliveness, the next question is usually, "Why doesn&#8217;t                  everyone do it this way?" "Why do others persist so                  adamantly in training methods, progressions, and ritual, that                  serve no purpose, and are simply &#8216;dead patterns&#8217;".                  "Why do people still feel so attached to dead patterns?"                  I hope to answer this second question in this article.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> Then I do not understand why you study Bujinkan and claim to teach it.
> 
> Honestly. I think it is only natural that we try to be like the guys at the top of our art.
> 
> And Ronnin, despite your recent PM to me where you called me, among other things, a mental midget, I am repeating my question on your claims of training in the Bujinkan. I was not the one to first raise that possibility, but the more you post and the way you evade and react, the more I am coming to their way of thinking.


I'd have to wonder the same thing.  I look at how my instructor moves, how his peers move, I look at how his instructor moves, and I look at how I move.  I see how far I've got to go...  

If I didn't want to look like them when I fight... Why would I be there?  If you want a pepperoni pizza, you don't go to a Japanese steak house or a tire store!  You go to a pizza parlor.  If you don't like what you see the people at the top levels in your art are doing, or you don't like the training in it -- why waste your time there?  

Why affiliate yourself with them, if you don't think they've got something worthwile?  Or do you think that what you've got to offer isn't substantial enough without their weight behind it?  In that case, it seems to me that you've got a choice to make.  If your going to clam to be doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu -- you have the obligation to do that.  Not something else.  If you're going to do something else, you need to give it a different name.  

Let me use Brian VanCise for a moment.  In his *Instinctive Response Training*, he tells you up front what inspired it, where it came from, and basically how it's NOT BBT.  When he teaches BBT -- I'm confident that THAT is exactly what he teaches -- NOT IRT, or anything else.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> Let me use Brian VanCise for a moment. In his *Instinctive Response Training*, he tells you up front what inspired it, where it came from, and basically how it's NOT BBT. When he teaches BBT -- I'm confident that THAT is exactly what he teaches -- NOT IRT, or anything else.


 
That would be correct! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  However, I am just a novice in Budo Taijutsu and thereby need training from my seniors in the art.  Definately we are blessed with great seniors in Michigan like Shihan Michael Asuncion, Shihan Yost Fulton, Shidoshi Bart Uggucioni and more.  Even then all of us endeavor to get to Japan as much as we possibly can to train with Soke and the Japanese Shihan.  I am looking forward to my next trip! (hopefully next July or August 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Seattletcj

jks9199 said:


> If I didn't want to look like them when I fight... Why would I be there?



Thats the point of the article posted above actually. 
I dont care how I look when I "fight". IMO if you have very solid basics and can perform using these basics, then what you look like is a natural byproduct. Unfortunatly looking a certain way seems to be the goal of many, while performance is assumed to be a byproduct.

My end goal is not to become a great dojo-jutsu practitioner. It takes immense skill to be a high level dojo-jutsuka, yes. That is just not my goal.



> it seems to me that you've got a choice to make. If your going to clam to be doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu -- you have the obligation to do that. Not something else. If you're going to do something else, you need to give it a different name.


ROFL Thanks for the ultimatum.  :rofl:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I really think that Budo Taijutsu is such a broad art and can easily handle lots of different pracittioners with different backgrounds and even some modified training methods. (It already does this)  Each person in the end has to find their own way.  Having said that clearly having a link and getting the feeling from Japan is important and to most essential.  The easiest way to do this is to train with people that regularly go to Japan or make the trip yourself.  Both of these allow you to get recharged and refocused on your training.  Just some thoughts on the matter.

Personally I enjoy seeing other peoples opinions even when I may not agree with them.  It always gives one food for thought!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> I do not want to do what the seniors in Japan do.


 
Fine. Then there's nothing stopping you from getting out, if you aren't already. Pardon my French.

In response to you article on Thornton, I'll say this - if the bottom line is that you can't rely on eye pokes, biting, clawing and groin attacks to save your neck on the ground, then I heartily agree. Furthermore, I'd like to put in a quote from a conversation between "Salty Dog" and "Crafty Dog" from the Kali Tudo dvd:


Crafty Dog: Well, it goes back to...there's this certain famous student of Guru Dan Inosanto, I think we'll refer to him that way, those who know who he is know who he is, those who don't...it doesn't matter. And...people kept coming to me saying that "so-and-so says that Guro teaches is a bunch of BS, a bunch of dead patterns, and what do you think??" 

He's an articulate guy, and he was famous for doing that stuff that Guro Inosanto teaches really well, and he's really quite impressive at it, so when he says it's no good, it carried a lot of weight with a lot of people. So they came to me, and it got me thinking, and I come to a different conclusion than he does, a very different conclusion. He's certainly free to follow truth as he sees fit, but he's also using it in how he markets himself in the martial arts world...'I can do that stuff, so when I tell you it's no good, you really know it's no good'. And that seems to me to be...inappropriate, and I think that as the years go by that will occur to him as well. 
But the question remains...it's the same question we got with the first series - where's the sombrada, where's the hubud, the thrust-on tapping, all these drills that people associate with the Filipino martial arts, and a lot of people were looking at our videos and saying 'see, that proves that that stuff doesn't work', or 'that proves the Dog Brothers don't have technical skills, they're a bunch of sweaty, smelly, psychopaths with sticks'. And at the same time, all of us who went deeper, and have the better results in Dog Brothers do have depth in that, and we were just doing the DVD conversion of the 'Power' tape, and there's that carenza that we opened with with you [Salty Dog]...a lot of dead pattern training to produce the skill setting that is so impressive today. And so, it's an interesting thing, we addressed it a little bit in the first series, Wild Dog was saying 'where's the technique that these people aren't seeing? There's a tremendous amount of finesse, and there's a tremendous amount of technique in everybody in Dog Brothers. It's just that it's happening really fast, and if you don't have any contact experience, you won't know what you're looking at'.

And I think that's right, I think you see the skills developed by sombrada when Chris Clifton, True Dog, fights with staff. He gets into mid-range and he just knocks the bejeezus out of people because he's just more fluid and more flowing and more alive, because of the time he spent developing those skills. Not only those reasons, he's also a hell of a fighter and he brings a lot of other things to the party as well. But I think that we really do see the art there, and to the people who take our fights as proof that that's this is the more flowery stuff and that's the more cultural side to the art...I say know, it really does produce the skills, but you also have to get in there and mix it up, and that's where I think this certain famous person has profoundly missed the boat...because he was so good at that stuff he expected to just sort of waltz in, and...ta-dah, and...no, it doesn't quite work like that, you've gotta spend some time, and you've got to look in the mirror when something goes wrong, not elsewhere."


----------



## jks9199

Seattletcj said:


> Quote:
> it seems to me that you've got a choice to make. If your going to clam to be doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu -- you have the obligation to do that. Not something else. If you're going to do something else, you need to give it a different name.
> ROFL Thanks for the ultimatum.  :rofl:



Maybe it's the medium interfering with the message...

It's your decision.  I just personally feel it's only fair that if you're going to use the name -- you have to stay within the bounds of their teaching.  I teach bando, as it was taught to me by my instructor.  I stay faithful to his teaching; I don't go out and graft judo or something else into it.  It's my understanding that there's a lot of room for personalization in the Bujinkan; that's great.  But if you wander too far afield, you stop doing what they are.  

Let me make a comparison with cooking.  You can take a cake, and add all sorts of stuff to it, "package" it into different numbers of layers or use different frosting, and it stays a cake, right?  But -- at some point, if you change it enough, like, if leave out flour and sugar and use ground beef and ground pork instead...  It's not a cake anymore.  It's meatloaf.  If you offered someone a slice of meatloaf as being the same thing as a slice of cake...  Most folks are probably going to think you're a little nutty, right?  Same thing with martial arts.  Once you stray far enough from the teachings of the "home" or "base" system -- you're into something different.  For some systems, you don't have much room at all.  In others, there's lots of room.  But you still have to stay within the overall bounds of the base, or you're doing something different.

And I'm not saying that one is better than the other, any more than meatloaf is superior to chocolate cake.  It just depends on what you want.  But giving meatloaf when you offer cake -- that's where I think there
s a problem.


----------



## Ronnin

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I really think that Budo Taijutsu is such a broad art and can easily handle lots of different pracittioners with different backgrounds and even some modified training methods. (It already does this) Each person in the end has to find their own way. Having said that clearly having a link and getting the feeling from Japan is important and to most essential. The easiest way to do this is to train with people that regularly go to Japan or make the trip yourself. Both of these allow you to get recharged and refocused on your training. Just some thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Personally I enjoy seeing other peoples opinions even when I may not agree with them. It always gives one food for thought!


I think you hit it on the nose. Each person finds thier own way. That's the wonderful thing about this art. Exploration. People who say "no you're not doing it right because you feet need to be angled 3 inches more" are just nit-picking. Don't get me wrong, we need to know the basic of the basics, we should be corrected, but at some point i think each person come to realize, this is how it works for me. Then build on that. And if a teacher is just nit-picking ( in your opinion ) then find one that fits you.


----------



## Seattletcj

jks9199 said:


> Maybe it's the medium interfering with the message...
> 
> It's your decision.  I just personally feel it's only fair that if you're going to use the name -- you have to stay within the bounds of their teaching.  I teach bando, as it was taught to me by my instructor.  I stay faithful to his teaching; I don't go out and graft judo or something else into it.  It's my understanding that there's a lot of room for personalization in the Bujinkan; that's great.  But if you wander too far afield, you stop doing what they are.



We are drifting here folks. I never said I graft things into or change anything. This was not the debate at all.
This is a straw man. 

The seniors in Japan are great at what they do. Period. If you study the art you need a link to them, and regular training from them or someone linked to them. Yes !
But...
 My end goal is not to be really great at demoing the complexities of the art in a very specific and controlled environment. Neither is it my goal to *look* a certain way. 

Thats all I'm saying. If that warrants all of the cries to "just quit"  or "join the ufc" as many are saying in public and via pm then.....wow.
I have apparently upset many people here. Sorry about that.

*:2xBird2:           :cheers:*


----------



## makoto-dojo

Hello everybody,

I just wanted to say thanks for the conversation. I was going to reply more, but I just don't have the time to do it right. Sumimasen... I will be getting even more busy soon, and also this thread is really more about the bujinkan than Takamatsu-den, so anything I say is really limited in relevance.

Have fun, don't take things so personal and keep an open mind maybe all parties will be wiser as a result, maybe everyone will help everyone else understand themselves a little more.

And, maybe not.. But I remain an optimist 

Sincerely,


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Well Dan, so far he is reacting more like some of the guys like those from the Saito ryu and less like real practicioners. And finding out about the guys in SoCal is not that difficult if you are in the area. So my instincts are going off. The following is kind of one of the things that sets it off.
> 
> Now I am not so sure. It is more about how he is unwilling to answer questions than anything else that sets off the alarms.
> 
> So, I think it safe to assume that he is not and never has been a Bujinkan member. Just that should be easy to prove. The only reason I can think of him not wanting to is that he is being decietful. If he really wants us to believe he was a Bujinkan member, then he can. If he does not care enough to prove it to us, then he does not care enough to complain when we treat him as if he was not.



He came to training today.  He knew the bow in ceremony -- and he warmed up with the San Shin (without fumbling) -- alongside us, simultaneous...  He moved well enough to remove any doubt.

That should kill this particular issue.

-DW


----------



## DWeidman

Seattletcj said:


> Thats all I'm saying. If that warrants all of the cries to "just quit"  or "join the ufc" as many are saying in public and via pm then.....wow.
> 
> I have apparently upset many people here. Sorry about that.



For the record -- how long have you been an instructor in the BJK?

I know the answer...

-DW


----------



## DWeidman

saru1968 said:


> Are you saying that by thinking for yourself you disregard the advice of your peers and those that have gone before you?



Maybe.  Kinda depends on the situation, I suppose.



saru1968 said:


> Nothing wrong with wanting to do your own thing i suppose or thinking you know better, you life i suppose but i'd hate to waste years training a certain way and then be told it was all wrong especially if you were told this beforehand danny.



I haven't been told virtually ANYTHING by a Senior in the BJK who I respect about this topic.  Anything that was hinted at, however, doesn't bode well for those who think I shouldn't be pressure testing my taijutsu.  In fact -- almost all advice I have received (again, from people who *teach* me) has been encouraging in my current endevors.  

Yep.  Seriously -- you can stop your inward screaming now.  Breathe.

I have, on the other hand, heard a LOT from people who know virtually nothing about me -- who love to tell me what I _should_ be doing.  And I weigh their advice with what they know about me... and... um... 

...well, you can probably guess what I do with it.

-DW


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Honestly. I think it is only natural that we try to be like the guys at the top of our art.



Hm.  This seems reasonable enough... at first.

So.  Which *guys*?  Or which *guy*?

Everyone here knows the MASSIVE difference between Nagato's taijutsu and Ogouri's.  How about Shiraishi and Seno?  And that is just in the inner circle of Japan's elite.  Shall we extend the circle to include the top-tier westerners who head up their country?  How MASSIVELY different are all of them?  

Whenever someone brings this point up -- I always ask the same question back -- which one do you want to be like?  The fact that there are MANY flavors... means the Hatsumi Sensei is ok with different approaches to his Budo...

Are you in a position to second guess him?

The last time I checked -- Hatsumi hasn't said, "Anyone caught sparring will have their shuriken confiscated and will be thrown out of the BJK forever!"

Funny that.

Perhaps -- like his rank structure / teaching guidelines / international organization (etc, etc, etc) -- he leaves decisions about what to do up to us...  Hm...  

Funny that as well.

Just my thoughts...  

...Not worth much really.

Later - 

-DW


----------



## Don Roley

Ronnin said:


> I think you hit it on the nose. Each person finds thier own way. That's the wonderful thing about this art. Exploration. People who say "no you're not doing it right because you feet need to be angled 3 inches more" are just nit-picking.



No, you are wrong. There is freedom. But before you graduate to be free you need to follow the lessons. There is a difference between the way Oguri and Nagato do things. But on the important points, they are the same. You may not know what those points are, but that does not mean that they are not there. And to say that you can just do anything and call it Bujinkan is just plain wrong. The angle of the kness can mean the difference between good taijutsu and bad taijutsu as well as needing a cane after 20 years of practice.

The devil is in the details. If you can't see the details, you need to get to a point where you can. If you do not understand something, you need to reach an understanding before you start fooling with it. And even if you *think* you know it, odds are you do not.

The matter of second guessing Hatsumi is an interesting one. I personally think that we should be very cautious about the matter. You only need to look at my rants about the behavior of certain people in Japan to see my message that by the time you are told you are doing something wrong, it is too late. Someone once said that the modern day version of _hamon_ is to merely stop correcting a person when they make mistakes. I have seen something close to this when people will not make an effort to try what the teachers do. They get patted on the back and smiled at, and they are allowed to wallow in their ignorance while the teacher spends his precious time correcting and advising those that follow what he does. This results in a lot of westerners walking away thinking they are doing what the teacher wants them to do, when the truth is they are not worthy of the teacher's time.

When someone whom I am trying to follow the art of does something, that does not neccesarily mean that I should do the same. I may not be qualified yet, nor know the reasons for doing it. And it may be that they abandoned the aspect due to problems. A great example of that is how Takamatsu toughened his hands, only to lose a lot of their use in his golden years.

But when someone I wish to emulate does not do something or has done something and dropped it, I would want to be damn sure I knew why they did so before I fooled with it. It does not matter that they do not openly come out and forbid it, they also have not forbidden me to stick my hand in a meat grinder. I would want to know the reasons in and out before I decided that I knew enough to take it up.

And if you are teaching people using the name Bujinkan, it just seems natural to me to try to copy the ways and means of the top of the Bujinkan as much as possible. There is thinking for yourself. But part of that thinking should be the acknowledgement that we do not know all the answers. So there should be a certain amount of trust and just trying it their way. When we have mastered what they teach we will then be in a position to determine what is relevent and what is not. But unless someone has mastered the lessons, I can't see fooling with the teachings. The art is a whole, and the process is as important as the techniques themselves. If you are a student, you just need to do what they teacher lays out as he lays it out and put off exploring until you get your graduation papers. And if you are a teacher using the Bujinkan name, that goes double- if not more.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> We are drifting here folks. I never said I graft things into or change anything. This was not the debate at all.
> This is a straw man.
> 
> The seniors in Japan are great at what they do. Period. If you study the art you need a link to them, and regular training from them or someone linked to them. Yes !
> But...
> My end goal is not to be really great at demoing the complexities of the art in a very specific and controlled environment. Neither is it my goal to *look* a certain way.



Just as a side point- do you honestly think that the seniors in Japan can only do what they do in a controlled enviroment? If so, why bother studying this art at all?

And if you can't do something under a controlled enviroment to the standards they hold, what makes you think you can do it in any other enviroment?


----------



## saru1968

I always think it comes down to too many Instuctors and not enough students......


----------



## stephen

saru1968 said:


> I always think it comes down to too many Instuctors and not enough students......




Or too few GOOD instructors.......


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> A great example of that is how Takamatsu toughened his hands, only to lose a lot of their use in his golden years.



At what cost though?  This is an interesting adjunct to the conversation:

How many techniques work differently today because the practioners don't have the grip and strength in their hands that the practioners of yesteryear would have had?  How many strikes can today's student not perform adequately?

I think back to the advice I give students today about mistakes I made.  Like -- don't hit a heavy bag as hard as you can on the first punch ever.  I nearly broke my wrist.  But because of it... I know a lot more about my limitations -- and I *know* how hard I can hit now.  

Sometimes you need to burn your hand on the stove.  

Just another take...



Don Roley said:


> And if you are teaching people using the name Bujinkan, it just seems natural to me to try to copy the ways and means of the top of the Bujinkan as much as possible.



Hm.  Perhaps we are agreeing here... but I think it is more important to represent the art as best you can.  This means that sometimes you look at the top tier guys and think, "how did he get to be so good?  -- maybe I should do that as well...".  That, for the record, may be different than, "I think I should copy his movement..."

Imagine for a moment if you simply "copied" Oguri's movement...



Don Roley said:


> ...The art is a whole, and the process is as important as the techniques themselves.



This is self-evidently untrue.  If this was the case -- there would be some form of a common process with us all.  Most specific instructors have a common process for their students -- but it is a case of major projection to assume that the process you are following is the one that everyone should be...



Don Roley said:


> If you are a student, you just need to do what they teacher lays out as he lays it out and put off exploring until you get your graduation papers. And if you are a teacher using the Bujinkan name, that goes double- if not more.



What do you mean by "graduation papers"?

-DW


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I'm with Daniel on this...sure, I want to learn as much as possible about what the seniors in Japan are teaching. Thing is, because of the level I'm at, I'm currently not very well suited to do that. Ergo, that's not what I'm primarily concerned with at this point in time. Those I do admire that go to Japan and bring back all sorts of cool concepts, I tell sure, that's all wonderful. But let's not forget that there are tons of other stuff it would benefit me even more greatly to have learned BEFORE I venture into all of that. I believe that if more beginners knew what kind of stuff they could expect from Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as a whole, there's no way in hell they'd be content with just learning to move around (what others have referred to as knowing plenty whilst understanding little). What about all the cool Shinden Fudo ryu throws and Takagi Yoshin ryu takedowns? What about hojojutsu? What about kusarifundo and the Kukishinden ryu shinkengata?

One possible answer as to why most people who enroll nowadays aren't taught these things first could be that there's just a too large gap in people's knowledge of these things, and that the reason for this is that people are a bit too eager to head to Japan and emulate advanced teachings. That, however, I don't know for sure, it's all pure speculation.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-
*


----------



## Seattletcj

DWeidman said:


> For the record -- how long have you been an instructor in the BJK?
> 
> I know the answer...
> 
> -DW



Good question. I am not a shidoshi. Never said I was either.
Just a "naive keyboard warrior"     
Nothing to worry about. 

BTW here is a clip of me sparring if you have any doubts about my methodology : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIyu8tg1SA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIyu8tg1SA  


: )


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> BTW here is a clip of me sparring if you have any doubts about my methodology :
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIyu8tg1SA
> 
> 
> : )



Are you serious?


----------



## saru1968

Bigshadow said:


> Are you serious?


 

_must be a wind up......._ hence the smiley


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> Just as a side point- do you honestly think that the seniors in Japan can only do what they do in a controlled enviroment? If so, why bother studying this art at all?



I really have no idea what they can do outside the controlled environment. That would take faith IMO. I do find value in the training and lessons. Just my opinion folks. Dont get too bent out of shape.



> And if you can't do something under a controlled enviroment to the standards they hold, what makes you think you can do it in any other enviroment?


We are coming at it from completly different paradigms. I dont believe I can adaquetly explain my POV in a way you can understand or accept, at least not without causing a complete meltdown of the thread. Thats ok though.

Good Luck.


----------



## Tenguru

Seattletcj said:


> I find it interesting that this simple challenge has been conviently ignored. Maybe it was just lost in the shuffle.
> [SIZE=-1]Originally[/SIZE] Don and Nimravus commented that the attacks in this video were lousy
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ...elated&search=
> 
> Can anyone find a good example of an uke attack ?
> There are literally hundreds of BJK clips on youtube and googlevideo, many of them from high ranking members. Can you produce one clip ?
> 
> Not trying to start trouble. Just a simple request.



I would appreciate seeing a "good" attack in a Bujinkan video clip as well.


----------



## Ronnin

Bigshadow said:


> Are you serious?


 
Well.........that's all.


----------



## Don Roley

DWeidman said:


> At what cost though?  This is an interesting adjunct to the conversation:
> 
> How many techniques work differently today because the practioners don't have the grip and strength in their hands that the practioners of yesteryear would have had?  How many strikes can today's student not perform adequately?
> 
> I think back to the advice I give students today about mistakes I made.  Like -- don't hit a heavy bag as hard as you can on the first punch ever.  I nearly broke my wrist.  But because of it... I know a lot more about my limitations -- and I *know* how hard I can hit now.
> 
> Sometimes you need to burn your hand on the stove.
> 
> Just another take...



And a good one. But in this case, according to what I was told, Hatsumi was told straight out not to do what Takamatsu did and take a longer time to learn how to use his limbs. Takamatsu needed to learn fast because he lived the life he did. Hatsumi did not. So that is why Hatsumi did not do what Takamatsu did in his earlier years. But of course, you know that I was  not there and will take what I say with a grain of salt.



DWeidman said:


> Hm.  Perhaps we are agreeing here... but I think it is more important to represent the art as best you can.  This means that sometimes you look at the top tier guys and think, "how did he get to be so good?  -- maybe I should do that as well...".  That, for the record, may be different than, "I think I should copy his movement..."
> 
> Imagine for a moment if you simply "copied" Oguri's movement...



Ah, but if Oguri was to say that he did something in his early days and advised all begginers did it as well, would you not be interested? I have heard from him that he used to practice with stances a lot deeper than he uses now but no longer needs to or is that desirable due to his advanced age. So I think we should not move as he does now in randori, but follow his advice in training.



DWeidman said:


> This is self-evidently untrue.  If this was the case -- there would be some form of a common process with us all.  Most specific instructors have a common process for their students -- but it is a case of major projection to assume that the process you are following is the one that everyone should be...



I have long realized that there is no common process for us for the reason that we are all at different levels of understanding and abilities as well as the attitudes we show and the chances we have. But even though Hatsumi will not forbid something or tell us straight out what we *will* do, there is enough to figure out what we should be doing IMO.

You know that Hatsumi has said on many occasions that he is teaching for the judan level and above. Whatever else you may think about that statement, I think we can agree that people should not just show up and expect basics to be shown to them in his classes. But you also know that no Bujkinkan member in good standing is ever turned away from his training. So even though he gives advice that means to me that white belts shoud go to the shihan or others to learn basics, you can see many white belts now at his training. I think this shows that the message of what you should be doing is no secret, but no one is going to force you to make the right choice. And in the same way, the senior shihan will tell you if you have the proper attitude what they did in the beggining and what they think you need to do to get better. But there will be no compulsion. If you do not try to do what they want, they will not waste their time trying to correct you.





DWeidman said:


> What do you mean by "graduation papers"?



I would be satisfied with someone like Hatsumi advising us to do something like sparring or adding things to the art rather than deciding on our own. If he does not tell us to do something, I would be leary of doing it unless I knew I had some information or experience he did not have. I know I do not have all the answers about taijutsu or the reasons behind what we do. It is not the things I know about that worries me, it is the stuff that I do not even know that I do not know about that makes the thought of fooling with the path laid out by Hatsumi so scary.


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> And a good one. But in this case, according to what I was told, Hatsumi was told straight out not to do what Takamatsu did and take a longer time to learn how to use his limbs. Takamatsu needed to learn fast because he lived the life he did. Hatsumi did not. So that is why Hatsumi did not do what Takamatsu did in his earlier years. But of course, you know that I was  not there and will take what I say with a grain of salt.



For the record -- I am not advocating breaking pebbles with your fingertips (until they bleed).  I was just using that as an example of the unknown effects a simple choice can make (often unnoticed by the person doing the advising).



Don Roley said:


> Ah, but if Oguri was to say that he did something in his early days and advised all begginers did it as well, would you not be interested?



Of course!  I am interested in everyone's approach -- and the explanation that goes along with it is more valuable then the advice.



Don Roley said:


> I would be satisfied with someone like Hatsumi advising us to do something like sparring or adding things to the art rather than deciding on our own.  If he does not tell us to do something, I would be leary of doing it unless I knew I had some information or experience he did not have. I know I do not have all the answers about taijutsu or the reasons behind what we do. It is not the things I know about that worries me, it is the stuff that I do not even know that I do not know about that makes the thought of fooling with the path laid out by Hatsumi so scary.



Due to your proximity / relationship to the man -- I can understand this.  

I will let you guess how many times Hatsumi and I have headed over to a restaurant after class -- because it has been awhile since he saw me and wanted to catch up on what is going on in my life...  His direct -- dedicated -- focused attention on me can be counted in the single digit minutes.  As such -- I suffer no illusions about "personal student of... blah blah blah".  Instead, I carry on the way I think I should -- under the watchful eye of those who I trust and see on a regular basis.

This involves being responsible for my own decisions -- both good and bad.  Just like life... actually.

My .02.

-DW


----------



## bencole

Seattletcj said:


> BTW here is a clip of me sparring if you have any doubts about my methodology :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIyu8tg1SA


 
Which weapon are you using in the video? It would help to put a face to a name.

-ben


----------



## Rook

bencole said:


> Which weapon are you using in the video? It would help to put a face to a name.
> 
> -ben


 
I think he was making a joke, hence the smiley face right after the link.


----------



## bencole

Rook said:


> I think he was making a joke, hence the smiley face right after the link.


 
Actually, that wasn't quite clear, especially after he wrote: "Well.........that's all." when Bigshadow asked "Are you serious?"

The smiley face could indicate his pride in what he is doing, rather than pointing to a joke. Who knows. That's why I asked, especially in light of his reply to Bigshadow.

-ben


----------



## Seattletcj

ROFL

That was not me, or anyone I know, in the video !!!    :lol:
I'm not that good.  

( BTW that was also not me that said "Well.........that's all." I believe that was another poster )


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> Ah, but if Oguri was to say that he did something in his early days and advised all begginers did it as well, would you not be interested? I have heard from him that he used to practice with stances a lot deeper than he uses now but no longer needs to or is that desirable due to his advanced age. So I think we should not move as he does now in randori, but follow his advice in training.



I want to take this as a quick, convenient point to explain what I've meant when I say "I want to look like my teacher when I move" or similar comments.  My teacher has a certain character to his movements, whether we're doing something solo or with a partner.  The same character is seen in many of his peers; the people who started their training at the same time he did.  And it's seen in his teacher's movement.  They don't all move exactly the same way; they're all very different people.  But you can't help but know that they've trained in the same principles.  And, from clips that Brian and others have posted of Bujinkan practitioners -- I've seen a different, but equally identifiable character.  It's clear that they've all learned the same principles; they may not express them exactly the same way, but they're definitely "reading from the same book." 




> You know that Hatsumi has said on many occasions that he is teaching for the judan level and above. Whatever else you may think about that statement, I think we can agree that people should not just show up and expect basics to be shown to them in his classes. But you also know that no Bujkinkan member in good standing is ever turned away from his training. So even though he gives advice that means to me that white belts shoud go to the shihan or others to learn basics, you can see many white belts now at his training. I think this shows that the message of what you should be doing is no secret, but no one is going to force you to make the right choice. And in the same way, the senior shihan will tell you if you have the proper attitude what they did in the beggining and what they think you need to do to get better. But there will be no compulsion. If you do not try to do what they want, they will not waste their time trying to correct you.



I was always frustrated when I realized that our chief instructor had something he wanted to teach -- but couldn't because there were several people in the group that weren't skilled enough to learn it.  They lacked the basics to handle the lesson in the time he had available, so, rather than embarass them and tell them to sit out, or something like that -- he altered the lesson and didn't go beyond them.  I think that this is at least not uncommon in Asian cultures (especially Japanese!); they seem to avoid direct confrontation or directly implying that someone is in the wrong place.  Instead, they "steer" you towards the right idea.  And, incidentally, I think this cultural clash is at the root of a lot of Western "problems" with the Asian martial arts...





> I would be satisfied with someone like Hatsumi advising us to do something like sparring or adding things to the art rather than deciding on our own. If he does not tell us to do something, I would be leary of doing it unless I knew I had some information or experience he did not have. I know I do not have all the answers about taijutsu or the reasons behind what we do. It is not the things I know about that worries me, it is the stuff that I do not even know that I do not know about that makes the thought of fooling with the path laid out by Hatsumi so scary.





DWeidman said:


> I will let you guess how many times Hatsumi and I have headed over to a restaurant after class -- because it has been awhile since he saw me and wanted to catch up on what is going on in my life...  His direct -- dedicated -- focused attention on me can be counted in the single digit minutes.  As such -- I suffer no illusions about "personal student of... blah blah blah".  Instead, I carry on the way I think I should -- under the watchful eye of those who I trust and see on a regular basis.



I think this is the best any of us, in any system, can do.  My teacher once described three elements as being necessary for success in studying the martial arts.  You need faith in your system; that it is valid and will meet your goals, if done properly.  You need faith in your teachers; that they will properly pass on to you the lessons of the system.  Finally, you need faith in yourself; that you will properly apply and practice those lessons.


----------



## Ronnin

bencole said:


> Actually, that wasn't quite clear, especially after he wrote: "Well.........that's all." when Bigshadow asked "Are you serious?"
> 
> The smiley face could indicate his pride in what he is doing, rather than pointing to a joke. Who knows. That's why I asked, especially in light of his reply to Bigshadow.
> 
> -ben


 that was me saying "Well.........that's all".
I didn't quite know what to say about that.


----------



## Tenchijin2

eh... nevermind.

This thread has been somewhat revealing, but not terribly surprising. I remember when I used to feel like I was in the Bujinkan mainstream.


----------



## DWeidman

Tenchijin2 said:


> eh... nevermind.
> 
> This thread has been somewhat revealing, but not terribly surprising. I remember when I used to feel like I was in the Bujinkan mainstream.



What exactly _is_ the mainstream Bujinkan?  I get the feeling I am not in _*it*_ either...

-DW


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Sorry, please forgive me...I have been on holidays at the beach for 7 days and have only just got onto my computer...I'll try to only comment on posts directed at me at this point.



bencole said:


> So we have had some interesting responses to my urging of students to not throw things away merely because they do not understand them yet....
> _talk talk talk_
> ...All you guys seem to be interested in "testing yourself," but you seem afraid to try to test something inherent in the art that you are supposedly learning. *(shake head)*


 
Sorry Ben, before I continue, I just wanted to point out that I think it pretty childish the way you always talk down to people as if you are a scolding father speaking to his naughty children. Its an attitude you really should try and lose as it really is unbecoming someone of the rank and skill _you claim to possess._ [shakes head  ]




> Please, please, please use your brain when practicing this!!!
> 
> I am **NOT** saying that *you should punch, leave your arm out*, and stand there like a statue. I am saying, punch (without retracting) and notice how the space changes now that the hand is there, and how your own footwork around your arm changes the opportunities available to you and your opponent.


 
okay...so what are you doing with your hand *after* throwing that punch? Are you retracting it back staright away? If so, well then that sounds very different to what you first said. If not, then I still say you leave yourself exposed to danger. But here is your original comment:



> You should be able to throw a punch, *then with that hand still out there*, generate enough power through your use of spine, knees, hips and and so on to knock the tori on his backside **WITHOUT* retracting the arm*


 
That still reads to me like you are saying you are throwing a powerful punch (using your whole body...nothing new there) and then well...just leaving it out there...



> Rubber Tanto said that he would "shudder to think what his sensei would do to him if he left a limb out to grasp." Why? How does your footwork and use of your spine affect his opportunity to grasp that arm? *It's kind hard to grasp the arm if the hand is being shoved into the throat*, or is coming in with repeated thrusts, or the footwork *AROUND* the arm of the arm holder is taking new angles such that "grasping" becomes a source of unbalance for the grabber. Does moving the hand vertically or horizontally (naturally THROUGH the body's Taijutsu) alter these opportunities or risks?


 
hmm...you make these statements as if you truly believe that EVRY punch you throw will not be deflected or evaded. That every punch you throw will find its mark. So what if that hand misses that throat? What if I throw that brutally powerful punch at his throat - and leave it out - and he flanks perfectly and now has me vulnerable, *AND* with an arm sticking out in mid-air because I thought it was going to be SO powerful and I was so confidant that it was going to hit his throat that I commited completely to it and left it out there?



> There are a *LOT* of things that can and will go on with that "arm out."
> 
> If you cannot control someone with your arm out, then your Taijutsu is not as good as you think. You should take this as an indication that you need to look more closely at what the art is teaching BEFORE tossing it in the trash bin.
> 
> -ben


 
Wow, that is pretty sad coming from a man of your rank. I have never tossed my art in the trash. I have always just said it is very important (in my opinion) to use randori and pressure testing with my kata training to improve ones taijutsu. Perhaps you feel threatened by such comments and thats why whenever someone suggests it you decide to personally attack the quality of their taijutsu and belittle them to tray and make yourself sound somewhat more important. I don't know. But I find it amazing that you think you have the right to say such things.

You say much Ben but when asked specific question you seem to become quiet just like when I asked you if you have ever tested your kukan theory on a resistant uke in the BJK on MAP and you never answered. Don't bother answering now. I really don't care anymore either way. We'll stick to the topic at hand. It really shows the your true character. 

I never said I cannot control someone with my arm out. I wasn't even talking about complete control of an opponent. I was just talking about a punch....Oh wait are you saying that if I leave my arm out against an experienced martial artist like my sensei (8 dans higher than me) that I would be able to control him? I would like to see that, to better understand it and improve my already pathetic taijutsu. Have you ever tested THIS theory on a resistant uke? A uke of the same skill level as you? Would you be able to film it and show it to me so that I (and obviously my sensei) can better understand that which you say? If you cannot film it, could you visit another BJK sensei from this board, test your theory UNDER RESISTANCE and have him post the outcome? Do I really ask for much?

Otherwise...all you are doing is talking, making yourself seem wise and all skilled and all others that don't agree, worthless and poor at their art, and I read a great line in a book once (Zen in the martial arts) In a nutshell it read: "You can't lengthen your line of knowledge by trying to shorten your opponent's line. What they know is what they know." And I live by it. 

Many people OUTSIDE of the bujinkan said they believed the BJK to be a useless art. I have met with many and in friendly training/randori I have proved that this art can be effective, to them and to myself. I have gained their respect for this art. I have fortified my love for it. I have seen what my sensei can do in this art under pressure. I have seen our high ranks do this. And it is this - facts and visual proof - that made my love for this art well grounded. From you I am yet to see anything line after line of rolly eyes, head shakes and slander. Maybe I am not as high ranked as you in the BJK, Ben. But I have 25 years experience, I have been in real life threatening situations and have worked in an idustry that found me in many an altercation, so there could be a slim chance that I can talk from some experience too.

~Nick

(I look forward to a possible lengthy reply filled with head shakes, wagging fingers, sighs, eye rolls and comments about how poor my taijutsu must be and how I just don't get it. Possibly even parsed to partial sentences)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Sorry Ben, before I continue, I just wanted to point out that I think it pretty childish the way you always talk down to people as if you are a scolding father speaking to his naughty children. Its an attitude you really should try and lose as it really is unbecoming someone of the rank and skill _you claim to possess._ [shakes head  ]


 
I don't have any problem with that. What I feel we need more of in the Bujinkan are a couple of honest-to-goodness Führers who has the guts to tell us that what we're doing is wrong, not some snob who goes on and on about naturalness long before most of us have lost the tension in our shoulders.



Rubber Tanto said:


> okay...so what are you doing with your hand *after* throwing that punch?


 
I don't think Ben has decided yet. In any case, I don't see why he'd need to at this point. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> That still reads to me like you are saying you are throwing a powerful punch (using your whole body...nothing new there) and then well...just leaving it out there...


 
This seems to me to be based on a confirmatory bias.



Rubber Tanto said:


> hmm...you make these statements as if you truly believe that EVRY punch you throw will not be deflected or evaded.


 
The risk for that significantly decreases if you're not punching straight into his guard. Kind of why it's SOP in various places for tori to lower the front arm when performing ichimonji no kata.



Rubber Tanto said:


> That every punch you throw will find its mark. So what if that hand misses that throat? What if I throw that brutally powerful punch at his throat - and leave it out - and he flanks perfectly and now has me vulnerable, *AND* with an arm sticking out in mid-air because I thought it was going to be SO powerful and I was so confidant that it was going to hit his throat that I commited completely to it and left it out there?


 
Who says that the attack is going to be over-committed?



Rubber Tanto said:


> Perhaps you feel threatened by such comments and thats why whenever someone suggests it you decide to personally attack the quality of their taijutsu and belittle them to tray and make yourself sound somewhat more important. I don't know. But I find it amazing that you think you have the right to say such things.


 
Something I personally do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel being on the receiving end of it. My experience training with people who spar regularly tells me that their taijutsu isn't giving them the results they should.


----------



## bencole

Rubber Tanto, please read Nimravus' post very carefully. He hit the nail on the head more than once.



Rubber Tanto said:


> Sorry Ben, before I continue, I just wanted to point out that I think it pretty childish the way you always talk down to people as if you are a scolding father speaking to his naughty children. Its an attitude you really should try and lose as it really is unbecoming someone of the rank and skill _you claim to possess._


 
People benefit from my bluntness. There are far too many people in the Bujinkan who are afraid to correct people or tell them they are wrong. I do not have that fear. Granted, that presumes that I actually know what I am talking about. Nevertheless, you are completely free (1) to not believe that, (2) to ignore everything I say, and (3) to think I sound like a scolding father.... 

Just looking around the world, it is not understatement to say that there are quite a few children who need some stern guidance. Your mileage may vary.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> okay...so what are you doing with your hand *after* throwing that punch?


 
As Nimravus said, it doesn't matter. It is an active part of the terrain without me pulling it back. Learn to *deal* with it!!!



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> That still reads to me like you are saying you are throwing a powerful punch (using your whole body...nothing new there) and then well...just leaving it out there...


 
Um... No, it doesn't. Please use your imagination to come up with a situation in which someone could punch and the arm still be out there.... Hmm... Whatever could that be?



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> hmm...you make these statements as if you truly believe that EVRY punch you throw will not be deflected or evaded. That every punch you throw will find its mark. So what if that hand misses that throat?


 
Why thank you, Mr. Tanto. I guess if my hand misses its mark or is deflected, then my hand is still out there....  

Now, I could pull it back and try to "recock my rubberband gun" or I could continue to use my Taijutsu *WITHOUT* recocking. If the foundation of my Taijutsu is built properly, I do not need to "recock" in order to generate knock-down power. 

I repeat: If you *CANNOT* generate knock-down power *EVEN ON A COMPLIANT PARTNER* with your arm extended, then your Taijutsu is lacking. Once you can do that, then you start to ratchet up the dynamics.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> What if I throw that brutally powerful punch at his throat - and leave it out - and he flanks perfectly and now has me vulnerable, *AND* with an arm sticking out in mid-air because I thought it was going to be SO powerful and I was so confidant that it was going to hit his throat that I commited completely to it and left it out there?


 
You clearly are not using Taijutsu properly if you over-commit to a punch in order to ensure that it is "powerful." Sorry, dude.

And how precisely did he mysteriously outflank you? Teleport?  What is keeping you from moving your own feet toward him, away from him, pulling your elbow toward your belly, or moving your arm such that it is between you and him? You speak as though you want someone to stand there with their arm out and have someone walk around behind them to punch them? (shake head).

Again, clearly, you are not "getting it."



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> You say much Ben but when asked specific question you seem to become quiet just like when I asked you if you have ever tested your kukan theory on a resistant uke in the BJK on MAP and you never answered. Don't bother answering now. I really don't care anymore either way. We'll stick to the topic at hand. It really shows the your true character.


 
I have tried to answer every question that has been asked of me on every board. The answer is "Yes" to your question, btw.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> are you saying that if I leave my arm out against an experienced martial artist like my sensei (8 dans higher than me) that I would be able to control him?


 
I am saying that you should *TRAIN* so that you *CAN* learn to control him with your arm out. (shake head) 

If you cannot do it, your Taijutsu is lacking. Period. 

Again, do not throw out something from the art just because you cannot do it right now. Try to understand *WHY* it is there in the first place. Clearly, you do not understand *WHY* it is there, and are more concerned about what others could do to you given that it is there. But you have not figured out *WHY* it is there.... 

When you understand *WHY* it is there, your concerns about what others could do to you given that it is there will disappear. It's quite simple actually.

Don't understand why --> Train --> Still don't understand why --> Train more -- Understand why



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Otherwise...all you are doing is talking, making yourself seem wise and all skilled and all others that don't agree


 
Actually, I would estimate that a vast majority of the people who visit Japan regularly and understand what Soke is teaching agree with my stances on these things. There is no need to "add things" to the Bujinkan in order to make it work. You need to understand how the Bujinkan works.

Rubber, how many hours have you trained in Japan with the Japanese? Seriously....

If you do not understand what the Japanese are teaching, it behooves you to figure it out if you want to claim to be learning this art. This is not a "Japan elitist" statement. It is simply fact. The more exposure you get to the Japanese and their way of teaching and learning the art, the greater an understanding of the art you will garner.



			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> Many people OUTSIDE of the bujinkan said they believed the BJK to be a useless art.


 
Who cares?

It sounds like you do....

-ben


----------



## Rook

Mr. Cole, why don't you answer Rubber Tanto's question instead of insulting him for asking?  I read your post and you don't seem to offer him anything but disdain for even having a question.


----------



## Seattletcj

bencole said:


> I have tried to answer every question that has been asked of me on every board.
> -ben



Have you found a clip of a good uke attack? 
There must be at least one clip out of the hundreds available that someone could point to that shows a "good" attack , right? 
I've even tried asking someone via pm to send me a clip in private.
 Nothing.
I'm interesting in seeing where people are coming from.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> Have you found a clip of a good uke attack?
> There must be at least one clip out of the hundreds available that someone could point to that shows a "good" attack , right?
> I've even tried asking someone via pm to send me a clip in private.
> Nothing.
> I'm interesting in seeing where people are coming from.



I have an idea...  Why don't YOU post a video clip of YOU showing a good attack?  It would be far easier than critiquing 3rd party videos.


----------



## Seattletcj

So you cant point to one, Bigshadow ?    :idunno:


----------



## saru1968

Seattletcj said:


> So you cant point to one, Bigshadow ? :idunno:


 
But if you know what one looks like it should be easy for you to film one, most of us of course do not know..:mst:


----------



## saru1968

Rook said:


> Mr. Cole, why don't you answer Rubber Tanto's question instead of insulting him for asking? I read your post and you don't seem to offer him anything but disdain for even having a question.


 
I read Ben's response and makes sense to me, so question IS answer but maybe its not tTHE answer YOU want..:barf:


----------



## Rook

Seattletcj said:


> So you cant point to one, Bigshadow ? :idunno:


 
I don't think he can.  If you get a chance, I would be interested in seeing what BBT trained resistantly would look like; everything I have both in person and online to date has been extremely compliant.


----------



## Seattletcj

I'm not  looking for something with resistance. I'm also not asking anyone to critique anything. There are hundreds of videos on youtube and google available for public viewing. I'm curious what members here consider to be a good attack, in order to set up some context.
Asking me to post a video of myself is a little beyond what we are talking about (although a clever diversion) . I never claimed to be able to do anything worth viewing.

Many of the videos available are done by very high ranking practitioners, so its not like all the clips available are of amatures.
I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?


----------



## bencole

Seattletcj said:


> Asking me to post a video of myself is a little beyond what we are talking about (although a clever diversion)


 
Actually, not at all. You seem to know what you are talking about. Please show us....

All of the "hundreds of videos" that I've seen online of Bujinkan instructors are those who are *INSTRUCTING*. 

When someone instructs, they are trying to show something. That usually includes making sure that the student can actually *SEE* things.



			
				Seattle said:
			
		

> I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?


 
Telling what?

Would you like me to post video footage of your teacher instructing so you can criticize how the attacks are "not real" and therefore the guy cannot fight or does not know what he is doing?

(shake head)

-ben


----------



## Rook

Seattletcj said:


> I'm not looking for something with resistance. I'm also not asking anyone to critique anything. There are hundreds of videos on youtube and google available for public viewing. I'm curious what members here consider to be a good attack, in order to set up some context.


 
Ok.  



> Asking me to post a video of myself is a little beyond what we are talking about (although a clever diversion). I never claimed to be able to do anything worth viewing.


 
Ok.  I was just wondering if there is any way out of this mess where nothing is considered a sample of the art and there really is nothing that can be taken as representative.  



> Many of the videos available are done by very high ranking practitioners, so its not like all the clips available are of amatures.
> I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?


 
It very well might be the case that there are none.


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> Ok.  I was just wondering if there is any way out of this mess where nothing is considered a sample of the art and there really is nothing that can be taken as representative.



If you are looking for a video clip, let me explain why *I* would never put a clip of myself doing this.

And you might want to go over to Amazon.com and look up my review of the book knife fighting in Folsom prison. You will clearly see that I talk about reading it and practicing against the types of things that people in prison are learning- rather than any type of sport attack. I posted that a few years ago after going over it with some friends in America that had some good pads.

So no trying to hint that I have never done anything like this and are scared to try it, ok?

When you train in forms and such, you try to make your movements as perfect as possible. There is a reason why a good teacher will correct you to the exact angle your legs and knees should be in.

But Peytonn Quinn (no stranger to violence) has put it best when he said that real combat (or anything close) is going to be messier than training. And if you train messy, then you will have *nothing* in a real fight.

So, if I were to tape the sessions I had going against a guy using the prison techniques, they would be of fairly messy taijutsu. They would not reflect the training I do outside of that. And it would *not* be obvious that I only had what level skill I did in the clips because I had other training that was done to a higher level of expectation.

The clip would not be something that I would want others to hold up as an example to copy and learn from. All it would serve is to somehow prove something to others. And quite simply, I really do not care enough about what those people might think to go to the trouble. It does not seem to be worth the effort, let alone the fear that others might think that the mistakes I know will crop up are something to be emulated, to satisfy the curiosity of others about my abilities.

If I were to put up clips (don't hold your breath) it would be of something that I would not be scared of others copying as best they can and looking for lessons on how to do things. At this point, even that does not appeal to me.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> If you are looking for a video clip, let me explain why *I* would never put a clip of myself doing this.
> 
> And you might want to go over to Amazon.com and look up my review of the book knife fighting in Folsom prison. You will clearly see that I talk about reading it and practicing against the types of things that people in prison are learning- rather than any type of sport attack. I posted that a few years ago after going over it with some friends in America that had some good pads.


 
I searched for Folsom prison on amazon and didn't turn up much.  Do you have a link?  



> So no trying to hint that I have never done anything like this and are scared to try it, ok?


 
I rarely speculate about the motivations of individuals.  I'm not sure what "like this" would refer to.  



> When you train in forms and such, you try to make your movements as perfect as possible. There is a reason why a good teacher will correct you to the exact angle your legs and knees should be in.


 
The same thing I was told in karate.  Ok.  



> But Peytonn Quinn (no stranger to violence) has put it best when he said that real combat (or anything close) is going to be messier than training. And if you train messy, then you will have *nothing* in a real fight.


 
No arguement there.  



> So, if I were to tape the sessions I had going against a guy using the prison techniques, they would be of fairly messy taijutsu. They would not reflect the training I do outside of that. And it would *not* be obvious that I only had what level skill I did in the clips because I had other training that was done to a higher level of expectation.


 
I think you will find that many people are more than willing to look past messy appearance if it is effective.  Heck, if you watch MMA legends like Igor Vovchanchyn or Fedor they appear quite sloppy on first look, but they seem to keep winning fights.  I don't think we will judge your level of skill by the appearance of techniques etc. so much as the level of resistance and competency the opponent shows.  



> The clip would not be something that I would want others to hold up as an example to copy and learn from. All it would serve is to somehow prove something to others. And quite simply, I really do not care enough about what those people might think to go to the trouble. It does not seem to be worth the effort, let alone the fear that others might think that the mistakes I know will crop up are something to be emulated, to satisfy the curiosity of others about my abilities.
> 
> If I were to put up clips (don't hold your breath) it would be of something that I would not be scared of others copying as best they can and looking for lessons on how to do things. At this point, even that does not appeal to me.


 
Without knowing the training behind it, it is hard to emulate more the the appearance of a technique.  This is true of all arts that I know of.  I doubt very much if anyone would be able to steal your techniques or skills based only on a clip of them in application.


----------



## Carol

The link is here but there aren't any reviews for the book unfortunately.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Holy smokes! So much parsing - so many words yet such vague answers, or answers to questions that were trivial while the more broader topic is brushed aside.
Anyway:

On Ben talking down to people:



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> People benefit from my bluntness. There are far too many people in the Bujinkan who are afraid to *correct people or tell them they are wrong*. I do not have that fear.


 


Nimravus said:


> I don't have any problem with that [Ben talking down to people when they share a different opinion to him]. What I feel we need more of in the Bujinkan are a couple of honest-to-goodness Führers who has the guts to *tell us that what we're doing is wrong*,


 
Funny how you both think that one someone tells you that it is rude to belittle people or talk down to them, you feel that I was talking about when you tell someone they think they are wrong... that speaks volumes of the both of you, don't you think?

Telling someone YOU THINK they are wrong is as simple as saying "I disagree" but then again...people treat words on forums like salad bars, they take what they want.

But since we are talking about telling people when what and how they train is wrong...There should already be plenty of those and I admire and wish all bujinkan instructors to be like that...*when it comes to training*. BUT...If I am doing something wrong in CLASS well yes, I expect my sensei to say that my taijutsu is flawed. When I am talking on line about a method of training and someone tells me that my taijustu is flawed because they have a different opinion...then you have no position to outright say it is wrong because you cannot see it, experience it or try it to judge it. All you have is your opinion, otherwise...well to paraphrase you, Nimravus, you become "some snob who goes on and on".


On what comes next after the punch that remains out there...



Nimravus said:


> I don't think Ben has decided yet. In any case, I don't see why he'd need to at this point.


 
I would have just liked one example not a set in stone technique to be used from now and forever.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> As Nimravus said, it doesn't matter. It is an active part of the terrain without me pulling it back. Learn to *deal* with it!!!


 
Deal with what? Don't get so defensive, Ben. It's you that initial attacked me. If you can answer my question or not, I'm not too stressed either way. I have used my taijutsu alive and know what it is capable of. You comment or throwing punches and just leaving them hanging in mid air really hooked me...I just wanted to know more...I was more interested in what YOU would do. If you (or Nimravus) have no answer, that is fine. I can accept that.



Nimravus said:


> Who says that the attack is going to be over-committed?


 
You both do. If you leave your arm out there you are completely commited. Explain to me your definintion of commitment in fighting.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> Why thank you, Mr. Tanto. I guess if my hand misses its mark or is deflected, then my hand is still out there....


 
To be grabbed. Yes. This is not a competition to see who is right here on my part Ben. I just like to find the best ways to train. You shouldn't get so excited...it becomes an ego thing that way.

But tell me...would you try that with nagato-sensei or hatsumi-sensei? How effective would that be agaisnt a higher skilled oponent such as them? (And no I am not putting myself in their category...so drop that stone before you think to throw it...but I am trying to understand how fool-proof you all believe this punching method to be)



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> Now, I could pull it back and try to "recock my rubberband gun" or I could continue to use my Taijutsu *WITHOUT* recocking. If the foundation of my Taijutsu is built properly, I do not need to "recock" in order to generate knock-down power.


 
Now wait on. THAT is not leaving your arm out there as you previously described it, in my books. That is fluid movement from one technique to the next. Perfect taijutsu. But that is not what you originally said. You were originally talking about punches SOOOO strong that you don't need to pull it back and it would blast uke's on to their backsides. Stop adjusting the subject to suite your current defence.





Nimravus said:


> Something I personally do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel being on the receiving end of it. My experience training with people who spar regularly tells me that their taijutsu isn't giving them the results they should.


 
But how good is their sparring? And what exactly is your experience? Nevertheless a vague statement. Please explain the blue section in detail if you would be so kind?



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> I repeat: If you *CANNOT* generate knock-down power *EVEN ON A COMPLIANT PARTNER* with your arm extended, then your Taijutsu is lacking.


 
But Ben, I could do that when I was learning shotokan karate. I could do that when I was training kickboxing. And I can do that now in my taijustu. How does that justify what you are saying? You still haven't answered my question. So keep ignoring it and answer these instead. Have you ever tried rabdori with a MT fighter? A boxer? A BJJ grappler? An mma trainer?

I have. These all taught me that there are many ways that we can be attacked that we do not train for and then it helped me look INTO our taijutsu to find answers. Why do I find your punching theory so interesting that I require more explanation (and a video demo if possible) because when I try to imagine it as you say it (you never know, I may just be reading it wrong) I vision you throwing the brutal almighty punch, and my good friend Shane (mma training of 12 years) alowing it to come in with only enough deflection and time to come in with a flank-shoot, wrapping his calves around your feet and using sheer body weight to drop you to the pavement with he on top.

Now you are probably rolling your eyes at my vision, but I have seen it in action, and I have been on the recieving end of it. I have seen TKD, MT, karate and Kung Fu guys fall to it time and time again, even when they know it is coming. The extended arm is what lets it come. If you have not experienced it, then you cannot understand. Seattlecj has trained in similar. Dweildman I believe has trained in similar. Hopefully they understand and can better explain that which I am trying to use as an example. The MT chest clinch followed by rapid fire knees is another one that comes to mind.

All these things have helped me see my taijutsu in a different light. I am not "throwing it out" I'm working on it....then again...isn't there a saying that each person's taijutsu is what they make it? And that is what is so great about this art?



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> And how precisely did he mysteriously outflank you? Teleport? What is keeping you from moving your own feet toward him, away from him, pulling your elbow toward your belly, or moving your arm such that it is between you and him? You speak as though you want someone to stand there with their arm out and have someone walk around behind them to punch them? (shake head).
> 
> Again, clearly, you are not "getting it."


 
Funny that NOW when its time to turn on me you can give an example of what comes after that punch. 

But seriously. Nothing stops me from moving. And move is exactly what I would do. But then again, flanking is my favourite tactic, and I move quite easily back to flank when people try to move to correct it away from me. But then again, from randori I am quite accustomed to going in very quickly so I don't like giving people enough time to correct footwork. I don't know who you have sparred with. Were they slow? Or are we talking just hypotheticles here?



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> I have tried to answer every question that has been asked of me on every board. The answer is "Yes" to your question [about trying kukan on a resistant uke], btw.


 
really? my question had been if you had tried your kukan ground theory against a grappler? I would love to hear about that? Who was the uke? a BJJ or MMA or judo fighter? Just out of interest.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> I am saying that you should *TRAIN* so that you *CAN* learn to control him with your arm out. (shake head)
> 
> If you cannot do it, your Taijutsu is lacking. Period.


 
This would be a great time for you to film me a demo. It would help verify that which you say and help me and many others understand what you are implying. Then maybe, as a person who as you say, cares so much to tell us when we are wrong. You can help me "get it".
Unless of course you only care when you can talk and not show.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> Again, do not throw out something from the art just because you cannot do it right now.


 
Again, I am not throwing out the art. Just your theory.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> Try to understand *WHY* it is there in the first place. Clearly, you do not understand *WHY* it is there, and are more concerned about what others could do to you given that it is there. But you have not figured out *WHY* it is there....


 
please describe IT for me and what IT is. Clearly you have the ability to help me understand. I would love to learn from it.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> There is no need to "add things" to the Bujinkan in order to make it work. You need to understand how the Bujinkan works.


 
Are you talking about randori? That is the only think I add to my bujinkan training and I have heard from seniors in the BJK via PMs that in japan it is common for some shihan to train randori behind closed doors. Is this a lie Ben? Do none of the shihan in japan train in randori? Please answer this question with a clear reply so that I may know which people in the bujinkan are lying to me. How does the bujinkan work. Since you understand and I do not. Perhaps you could explain it to me. Or will this be just another attempt to belittle.



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> Rubber, how many hours have you trained in Japan with the Japanese? Seriously....


 
Not one. And that does not bother me one inch. You make a false assumption Ben if you think your skill is better than anothers because of the country they recieve their training. As well as another example of where you take a shot at me, thinking that this somewhow makes my opinion mute. Don't be such an elitist. Until you touch hands with me you cannot judge me so. Until you get a tap from me under resistance you cannot think yourself better.

You have to stop saying that someone must train like a japanese to be good at taijutsu. One must be good at taijutsu period. That is my aim. I don't need to understand why a technique is trained they way it is trained. I care only about how effective the training method is in providing an end result. Is that narrow minded? Maybe. But it hasn't let me down yet.

I have seen many a thread in the past from people like Don Roley talking about people that turn up to hombu and just suck big time. Is this not proof that clearly the travel to japan alone does not a great taijutsu practitioner make?



			
				BenCole said:
			
		

> Who cares? (about the opinion of other martial artists who see the BJK poorly)
> It sounds like you do....


 
I know a former BJK 3rd dan (here in Australia) that left because he lost to a BJJ white belt. A BJK nidan that quite because he was taken down with a combination of kicks and punches by a drunk MT guy at a BBQ. 

So yes I do care. very much so. 
If you do not care about the system enough to defend it then so be it.
~Nick


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Funny how you both think that one someone tells you that it is rude to belittle people or talk down to them, you feel that I was talking about when you tell someone they think they are wrong... that speaks volumes of the both of you, don't you think?


 
I lost you at "funny"...come again?



Rubber Tanto said:


> When I am talking on line about a method of training and someone tells me that my taijustu is flawed because they have a different opinion...then you have no position to outright say it is wrong because you cannot see it, experience it or try it to judge it.


 
What we can say is that you are making assertions that, in our experience, are not made by people who have received proper instruction.



Rubber Tanto said:


> All you have is your opinion, otherwise...well to paraphrase you, Nimravus, you become "some snob who goes on and on".


 
How convenient to take that out of context. You're now using that as an excuse to justify the behaviour mentioned above.



Rubber Tanto said:


> I would have just liked one example not a set in stone technique to be used from now and forever.


 
Why do you feel you need to be told that?



Rubber Tanto said:


> I was more interested in what YOU would do. If you (or Nimravus) have no answer, that is fine. I can accept that.


 
I personally try to get rid of the habit of deciding what to do before the situation occurs.



Rubber Tanto said:


> You both do. If you leave your arm out there you are completely commited.


 
Not necessarily.



Rubber Tanto said:


> But tell me...would you try that with nagato-sensei or hatsumi-sensei?


 
Personally, I'd resort to the cyanide tablet around my neck. Less painful for me that way.



Rubber Tanto said:


> Now wait on. THAT is not leaving your arm out there as you previously described it, in my books. That is fluid movement from one technique to the next. Perfect taijutsu.


 
I trust you're not expecting Ben or anyone else to have a cup of coffee between every move?



Rubber Tanto said:


> But how good is their sparring? And what exactly is your experience? Nevertheless a vague statement. Please explain the blue section in detail if you would be so kind?


 
At least you and the people I'm referring to seem to think alike so far.



Rubber Tanto said:


> These all taught me that there are many ways that we can be attacked that we do not train for


 
That YOU do not train for, you mean.



Rubber Tanto said:


> The extended arm is what lets it come.


 
Wait a minute - you're not saying you can only fall victim to a doubleleg if your arm is extended, I hope?



Rubber Tanto said:


> isn't there a saying that each person's taijutsu is what they make it? And that is what is so great about this art?


 
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/8290/modernninpo.htm



Rubber Tanto said:


> please describe IT for me and what IT is. Clearly you have the ability to help me understand. I would love to learn from it.


 
And save you from finding it out while training? 



Rubber Tanto said:


> Are you talking about randori? That is the only think I add to my bujinkan training and I have heard from seniors in the BJK via PMs that in japan it is common for some shihan to train randori behind closed doors.


 
Yes. With a set attacker and defender, and with the purpose of establishing control, not to beat the crap out of one another. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> Not one. And that does not bother me one inch. You make a false assumption Ben if you think your skill is better than anothers because of the country they recieve their training.


 
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a Japanese art. As such, to be a part of it, it behooves you to learn what the Japanese are trying to teach. The best knowledge of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to be found in Japan, anyone who says different is lying.



Rubber Tanto said:


> You have to stop saying that someone must train like a japanese to be good at taijutsu. One must be good at taijutsu period.


 
See above.



Rubber Tanto said:


> I don't need to understand why a technique is trained they way it is trained.


 
If you didn't need to understand that we wouldn't be having this conversation.



Rubber Tanto said:


> Is this not proof that clearly the travel to japan alone does not a great taijutsu practitioner make?


 
Absolutely. But neither does keeping to yourself all the time.



Rubber Tanto said:


> So yes I do care. very much so.


 
Given the examples you mention, why are YOU still training?


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> I think its very telling that not one person will come forward with a clip. Does that mean there are NO clips that show a good attack?



Or maybe they have been there all the time, but you choose not to see them.  Just a thought.  

Nearly all of the videos I have seen is actual instruction, therefore things are slow and very step-wise.  I have not seen much randori where one could "see" it.  However, if one cannot see it in a step-wise manner, they will never see it in a moderately faster and more flowing manner where there is no distinction between step 1 and step 2.

Lastly, you could produce a video just as easily, we don't have anymore obligation to create or produce a video for your convincing than you to produce one for us to critique.

I have video of myself, but I am not going to put it online, because it is/was training.


----------



## Seattletcj

bencole said:


> All of the "hundreds of videos" that I've seen online of Bujinkan instructors are those who are *INSTRUCTING*.
> 
> When someone instructs, they are trying to show something. That usually includes making sure that the student can actually *SEE* things.



I'm looking for good attacks by uke. I'm not concerned with how good tori does. Not all Bujinkan clips are the stop action "instructional" ones you are talking about BTW. 

Here are some quick ones I found.
Took 2 minutes, literally.
















Not saying they are bad or good. Just asking for your opinion on what is good, as far as an uke attacking. Jeeze, its like pulling teeth.




> Would you like me to post video footage of your teacher instructing so you can criticize how the attacks are "not real" and therefore the guy cannot fight or does not know what he is doing?
> 
> (shake head)
> 
> -ben


I never said I would criticize anything. If you want to do it though... sure.
I'd hope you'd ask his permission first, since he has not put anything on youtube for public viewing. But ya, if you want to.

 CONTEXT : Don Roley and Nimivarus commented how attacks done in a certain clip were "lousy" (post # 183). I just asked for an example of an attack that they thought was good.

I wish there were an icon of a tumbleweed blowing across the screen though, because it would have been appropriate.
Anyway, forget it.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> I'm curious what members here consider to be a good attack, in order to set up some context.



IMO, a good attack generally contains the following...  balanced tactical movement (not overcommitting), cover, and punching in a manner to not telegraph that the attack.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


>


 
"Tall and straight in the back, but with the knees ever bent - this is how we fight." :whip1: 



Seattletcj said:


>


 
90 percent karate if you ask me.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> I lost you at "funny"...come again?
> 
> 
> 
> What we can say is that you are making assertions that, in our experience, are not made by people who have received proper instruction.
> 
> 
> 
> How convenient to take that out of context. You're now using that as an excuse to justify the behaviour mentioned above.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you feel you need to be told that?
> 
> 
> 
> I personally try to get rid of the habit of deciding what to do before the situation occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I'd resort to the cyanide tablet around my neck. Less painful for me that way.
> 
> 
> 
> I trust you're not expecting Ben or anyone else to have a cup of coffee between every move?
> 
> 
> 
> At least you and the people I'm referring to seem to think alike so far.
> 
> 
> 
> That YOU do not train for, you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a minute - you're not saying you can only fall victim to a doubleleg if your arm is extended, I hope?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/8290/modernninpo.htm
> 
> 
> 
> And save you from finding it out while training?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. With a set attacker and defender, and with the purpose of establishing control, not to beat the crap out of one another.
> 
> 
> 
> Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a Japanese art. As such, to be a part of it, it behooves you to learn what the Japanese are trying to teach. The best knowledge of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to be found in Japan, anyone who says different is lying.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.
> 
> 
> 
> If you didn't need to understand that we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. But neither does keeping to yourself all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Given the examples you mention, why are YOU still training?


 
I am still training because MY bujinkan dojo has proved to be effective. I have put it to the test and it has not let me down. Yes I love BBT, but I represent my dojo above all else.

Nimravus, A post filled once again with insults (the blue highlighted one is a gem ... pure arrogance) yet you did not address one single point with a straight answer. And that is all the answer I need, I guess.

My only other comment here will be on your view of randori...I asked if in Japan, randori is used. You answered with: _"Yes. With a set attacker and defender, and with the purpose of establishing control, not to beat the crap out of one another." _But in all my career, I have never sparred with a single guy that just wanted to beat the crap out of me. You are confusing sparring with fighting. Shame. 
Nevertheless, you just agreed that in Japan the Shihan use randori. Does this make them, as you once said, Jerks? Or is this another example for Ben of "People trying to change their taijutsu? 

As for this punch that hangs. If none of you are willing to clearly explain yourselves on what you mean, and instead just keep slinging insults, without a video clip as a demo, I'll just have to admit that I don't know what you are going on about. I have printed out Bens comments, perhaps my sensei can show me what he is talking about at tomorrow's class.

Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> (the blue highlighted one is a gem ... pure arrogance) yet you did not address one single point with a straight answer. And that is all the answer I need, I guess.


 
Then by all means set an example by asking yourself this question - why is it that the Japanese shihan aren't complaining about the training issues you're lamenting?

The fact of the matter is that you don't hear the stuff you're saying from most reknowned people in the Bujinkan. But you probably have an explanation to that along the lines of "group thinking"...? Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Rubber Tanto said:


> But in all my career, I have never sparred with a single guy that just wanted to beat the crap out of me.


 
I have. Don't recommend it.



Rubber Tanto said:


> You are confusing sparring with fighting. Shame.


 
*cough cough*



Rubber Tanto said:


> Nevertheless, you just agreed that in Japan the Does this make them, as you once said, Jerks?


 
You just love to quote out of context, don't you?



Rubber Tanto said:


> If none of you are willing to clearly explain yourselves on what you mean,


 
You've said yourself that you don't need to understand why a technique is practiced the way it is. Would you please make up your mind?


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> I searched for Folsom prison on amazon and didn't turn up much.  Do you have a link?



This seems to be the best I can do.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2GWX632S24QL8

Here is what it says,



> I have known fellow martial artists who have tried their techniques out against other martial artists in controlled situations. The logic always kind of escaped me as to why they thought that the person that attacked them would be using the same techniques that they were taught in the dojo.
> Rather than a trained martial artist, the person trying to play show and tell with your insides is likely to be an ex- con. This book is about the techniques that are taught inside of prison. It just seems logical to me that if you are serious about learning what you might face in a street knife fight, instead of going to Arnis, Kali or Silat sources to see what they do, you go to see what the people most likely to try to kill you are learning.
> 
> If you are surprised by what you find in this book- great! It is better you learn about it in the comfort of your home and try defending against it in practice than encountering it for the first time on the street. This stuff is very simple, but most of the most effective stuff is. And a lot of it relies on surprise. So by knowing about it beforehand you take away a lot of the advantages the other guy might have.



Now, I would like to ask the following question.

Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)

Marc MacYoung makes a very simple, but true statement, that an enraged drunk will attack like an enraged drunk and not a trained martial artist.

So, how many people who want to be able to deal with Ken Shamrock have tried training against someone acting like an enraged drunk?

You want realistic attacks? Well, you should be learing about the type of knife attacks people are learning in prison instead of what the latest sports figures are doing.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> Now, I would like to ask the following question.
> 
> Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)


 
Hi Don.
As you may remember from a thread over on e-budo, I have been in a situation where I was attacked by four teens with one holding a knife. Even though I had a good number of years karate training back then, it did me no good in the end as four is a big number and I realised very quickly that people just don't attack one at a time like in the movies. All four attacked me at once, punching and kicking. I held my own for a short time and managed to knock the first person went down but even as he fell - a little dazed - he never let go. I think he was holding on to my sleeve. I was trapped as the others kept punching and kicking from three sides. I couldn't get away. I couldn't think. I couldn't defend myself properly.

When I saw one of them try to punch me in the gut. I managed to get a block in but then I felt a strange pain in my gut and I realised I had been stabbed. They too had realised what they had done, seeing the blood, and they fled. Maybe they had suddenly realised that mugging a guy with a knife wasn't such a good idea. Maybe they realised they had gone too far. I don't know. But it made me look at martial arts in a very different viewpoint. Maybe thats why I see my training a little different to some of you here. I know what it is like to live in fear after that incident for a long while, and then live with the anger.

In my dojo, I have to say we do not train for frenzied attacks. We just have your traditional kata training, followed by days where we focus on some pressure testing and then nominated attack/defence randori.

The pressure testing is the closest I have experienced *at the dojo* to that attack that day. Only in it is relentless.

Outside of the dojo, my friends and I try to mimic such acts of sudden violence. (One drill is just facing off silently - heavily padded - for a long period of time without eye contact, long enough until you start to lose that edge...then the nominated attacker suddenly bursting towards you with wild and fast kicks and punches and screaming to throw you.) Its never going to be the same - In the end you know that the person you face off is your friend and that he will stop if you start to flounder, and help you up - But it reminds me of a time when I foolishly thought what I was doing in the dojo (single person kata / no head no contact randori) was the bomb and I felt invincible.


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## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)



One of the guys who trains with us is a prison guard.  He was demonstrating the type of attacks the prisoners do.  At first it is quite intimidating to see it, even more when the dude looks like "The Rock".  We worked on those types of attacks for awhile.  It was interesting training to say the least!


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## saru1968

Rubber Tanto said:


> You make a false assumption Ben if you think your skill is better than anothers because of the country they recieve their training.


 
Bottom line realy Nick, if you want to get good at our art then you take directions from the Japanese seniors, it being a Japanese art and all that.

Really is a no brainer and i'm surprised you said it...

Its fine to disagree, i do with many but...

The best practioners of this Art tend to be those who are either Japanese, reside there or have very close links.

Of course there are those that visit but there not the ones i'm on about.

Really sounds like your strating to do a different art..has your Instructor got strong links to Japan? not meaning to infalme just a honest question.

Gaz.


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## exile

Bigshadow said:


> One of the guys who trains with us is a prison guard.  He was demonstrating the type of attacks the prisoners do.  At first it is quite intimidating to see it, even more when the dude looks like "The Rock".  We worked on those types of attacks for awhile.  It was interesting training to say the least!



David, I for one would be very interested in learning more details of your experience with the kind of training you're alluding to here. In particular, what are the `types of attacks the prisoners do' that you refer to, and what did your group do by way of `working on' those attacks? This is fascinating stuff, and to me represents and imprtant dimension of training which is typically lacking in most dojos/dojangs. Part of the problem is I suspect figuring out _how_ to ramp the level of combat up to a level where it begins to be effective, but where no one actually gets killed. Rubber Tanto's description of what his group does is really intriguingI've always visualized something like that as being necessarybut I'd like to get a picture of what you were doing in your school...


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## Brian R. VanCise

LEO's, Corrections Officers, Security Personnel, Bouncers, criminals can really give you a glimpse into what reality can be like.  Besides my background in the field.  I think it is important to constantly ask people what they have seen and had first hand in experiencing.  Unfortuantely real violent encounters are rarely like a cage match, sparrring, etc.  They are typically messy, dirty and technically not that pretty.  However when training try to be crisp, clean and smooth with your technique because if you have weaknesses in your technique they will only be *magnified* under stress and the movement of a real life violent encounter.

Good Training Halls typically try to address some of the above in various way's.  Some of which might not be very noticeable for a long time.  

No matter what keep training and improving.  That is something that you have in your grasp to control.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Common sense dictates that you shouldn't go to the ground and grapple with someone with a knife. Well, I have a female colleague who has done just that, with a guy doped up on Rohypnol no less. She seems to have done all right. 

BTW, last Wednesday some other colleagues of mine were sprayed with mace while apprehending a suspect. Apparently, that didn't stop them from taking him down.


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## Bigshadow

exile said:


> David, I for one would be very interested in learning more details of your experience with the kind of training you're alluding to here.



What I gathered from it, the attacks are often under the guise of friendship and is a surpise encounter from well within reach.  It is a violent and rapid stabbing action in very close proximity.   Other attacks attempt to close the distance in other manners by jumping around and constantly moving into the space and when close enough to rapidly and violently attack.

To see it at full speed it is quite intimidating.  But we would take the attack , slow it down and break it down to it's most basic components of balance, timing, and distance to deal with it.  Later speeding it back up.

It is certainly not close to what you would see a trained martial artist do.  As Don pointed out, they largely rely on the element of surprise and *I* believe the likelihood of the victim not to be armed plays into the picture too with the total committed brutality of the attack.


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## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> Now, I would like to ask the following question.
> 
> Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in? How about multiple opponents? Have you ever even heard of the jackknife? (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)


Yes. Here are some clips, for starters, that address your concerns. 

http://dogbrothersvideo.com/interfacetrailer_large.wmv

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-306340144244288583&q=straight+blast+gym&hl=en






And a good site:

http://www.centerlinegym.com/





> So, how many people who want to be able to deal with Ken Shamrock have tried training against someone acting like an enraged drunk?
> 
> You want realistic attacks? Well, you should be learing about the type of knife attacks people are learning in prison instead of what the latest sports figures are doing.


Ok. How many people are training against john doe tsuki stab? Seriously Don, at least be fair here.
 (I have trainied in some excellent knife defense IMO, under my BJK instructors. )


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## exile

Bigshadow said:


> What I gathered from it, the attacks are often under the guise of friendship and is a surpise encounter from well within reach.  It is a violent and rapid stabbing action in very close proximity.   Other attacks attempt to close the distance in other manners by jumping around and constantly moving into the space and when close enough to rapidly and violently attack.
> 
> To see it at full speed it is quite intimidating.  But we would take the attack , slow it down and break it down to it's most basic components of balance, timing, and distance to deal with it.  Later speeding it back up.
> 
> It is certainly not close to what you would see a trained martial artist do.  As Don pointed out, they largely rely on the element of surprise and *I* believe the likelihood of the victim not to be armed plays into the picture too with the total committed brutality of the attack.



I'd really love to be able to see some videos of how you folks analyze the attack and identify the components, and how derail the onslought of attacking moves so that they don't get to build quickly on each other. What you're doing sounds to me like an absolutely key part of the training spectrum that every MA school should include. I have my own thoughts on why they tend not to... but it sounds like you guys, at least,  have the right idea.


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## Bigshadow

exile said:


> I'd really love to be able to see some videos of how you folks analyze the attack and identify the components, and how derail the onslought of attacking moves so that they don't get to build quickly on each other. What you're doing sounds to me like an absolutely key part of the training spectrum that every MA school should include. I have my own thoughts on why they tend not to... but it sounds like you guys, at least,  have the right idea.



We rarely video tape our training.  Mostly to send to our senior instructor in Japan to review.  IMO, after analyzing it, it still boils down to balance, distance/space, and timing, the manipulation of these three things.  Just my opinions based on where I am at with my training and it is subject to change without notice.


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## exile

Bigshadow said:


> We rarely video tape our training.  Mostly to send to our senior instructor in Japan to review.  IMO, after analyzing it, it still boils down to balance, distance/space, and timing, the manipulation of these three things.  Just my opinions based on where I am at with my training and it is subject to change without notice.



It's good to think about this stuff. The business you mentioned about the use of false signals to get inside the intended victims protective perimeter is really, really importantbasically, you have to have your wits about you and your instinct for trouble in top condition, to detect any anomalies in others' behavior that could be a tip-off to planned violence. If you're on your guard and forcefully preserve that perimeter, you might well derail the planned attack right there. But it's hard to maintain a worst-case, red-alert level of awareness all the time, for sure...


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## Brian R. VanCise

Exile and Bigshadow all of the above is good stuff that you are posting.  Awareness and the ability to feel what is going on around you is very, very important.  Then having an idea how the common untrained man moves and or a criminal might use a blade, shank etc. can only give you a bit of advantage if you are ever unfortuantley caught in that situation.


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## exile

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Exile and Bigshadow all of the above is good stuff that you are posting.  Awareness and the ability to feel what is going on around you is very, very important.  Then having an idea how the common untrained man moves and or a criminal might use a blade, shank etc. can only give you a bit of advantage if you are ever unfortuantley caught in that situation.



Brian, this is why I think the approach to the MAs that you take in IRT (I've scoped out your IRT site several times) is so on-target. The best skills in the world aren't of any use if you're not able to mobilize them in the super-urgent fashion that a violent street attack requires of you. As you know, I'm a big fan of training kata-based techs and the like under super-realistic interpretations of the movementsbut that's only half of the survival recipe! The old master karateka and their Korean and Chinese analogues could leave us clues in the forms to what to _do_, but what they obviously _couldn't_ do is leave us physical evidence of their combat _mindset_, their ways of thinking through the environmental hazards and opportunities in every potentially dangerous situation, and the like. What I like about the way you guys at IRT operate is that you recognize that that kind of thinking is at least as important to survival as the techs involved, probably more so. 

That's why, I have to say, I don't find arguments about the relative effectiveness various TMAs, (or of TMAs vs. MMAs, or whatever) to be the really important debates. What is far more important is the issue of how to mentally gird yourself to bring the skills you do have to bear, to make the adrenaline burst that typically precedes a real survival combat situation work for you, or at least work _with_ you, and how to become the predator in that situation instead of the prey that your assailant sees you as being. Would love to train some with you guys on this stuff someday!


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## Brian R. VanCise

exile said:


> Brian, this is why I think the approach to the MAs that you take in IRT (I've scoped out your IRT site several times) is so on-target. The best skills in the world aren't of any use if you're not able to mobilize them in the super-urgent fashion that a violent street attack requires of you. As you know, I'm a big fan of training kata-based techs and the like under super-realistic interpretations of the movementsbut that's only half of the survival recipe! The old master karateka and their Korean and Chinese analogues could leave us clues in the forms to what to _do_, but what they obviously _couldn't_ do is leave us physical evidence of their combat _mindset_, their ways of thinking through the environmental hazards and opportunities in every potentially dangerous situation, and the like. What I like about the way you guys at IRT operate is that you recognize that that kind of thinking is at least as important to survival as the techs involved, probably more so.
> 
> That's why, I have to say, I don't find arguments about the relative effectiveness various TMAs, (or of TMAs vs. MMAs, or whatever) to be the really important debates. What is far more important is the issue of how to mentally gird yourself to bring the skills you do have to bear, to make the adrenaline burst that typically precedes a real survival combat situation work for you, or at least work _with_ you, and how to become the predator in that situation instead of the prey that your assailant sees you as being. Would love to train some with you guys on this stuff someday!


 
Mutual admiration goes both ways my friend.  I would like to train with you in the future as well.  Who knows I may be down your way sometime soon and we can get together to train. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I am planning on coming to a combat hapkido seminar sponsored by Father Greek and Drac this May.  Maybe we can all meet and have a drink together then.


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## exile

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Mutual admiration goes both ways my friend.  I would like to train with you in the future as well.  Who knows I may be down your way sometime soon and we can get together to train.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am planning on coming to a combat hapkido seminar sponsored by Father Greek and Drac this May.  Maybe we can all meet and have a drink together then.



The May gig, Brian, with John Pellegrini? Yes, I'm planning to go to that (have already been given the green light by my wife to attend, nothing can now prevent me!! ). Definitely, we will meet, train and have that drink togetherthis is excellent!


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## seansnyder

saru1968 said:


> Bottom line realy Nick, if you want to get good at our art then you take directions from the Japanese seniors, it being a Japanese art and all that.
> 
> Really is a no brainer and i'm surprised you said it...


Wow that's ballsie a statement



> The best practioners of this Art tend to be those who are either Japanese, reside there or have very close links.


What is your definition to close links: 1 visit per year, 2 visits per year, dinner with Hatsumi nightly.....??? Wait, did I not read the bottom statement...............



> Of course there are those that visit but there not the ones i'm on about.


Really, why?


Sean Snyder


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## Bigshadow

exile said:


> But it's hard to maintain a worst-case, red-alert level of awareness all the time, for sure...



IMO, I really don't think it is necessary to be constantly on that red-alert level of awareness.  I firmly believe that if you relax and just enjoy life (but be aware, but relaxed), your senses will alarm you when the time comes.  I think to go about constantly on guard stifles those signals and feelings and it is counter productive to what is real and what is not.  Just my opinions.


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## Rubber Tanto

saru1968 said:


> Really sounds like your strating to do a different art..


 
Taijutsu training + pressure testing + randori is a different art? Why?

Nimravus just said that Shihan in Japan use Randori. Other seniors from Japan have told me that at least one shihan has some drills that are very similar to what we refer to as pressure testing. If this is correct, then why is it that because my dojo does it as part of its syllabus it makes it a different art?



saru1968 said:


> Has your Instructor got strong links to Japan?


 
Yes he had but he has not been in a few years as our school has many students (almost 150 juniors and 80 adults) and some seniors have had to postpone their training due to new employment, moving to different state etc... He is also currently suffering from an injury which is hindering him. 

On the travel to Japan part. Last year I had a choice to travel on business to Japan on a buying trip or to Hong Kong China to attend a fair. I asked some people if it was a good idea to go to train in Japan. I was told that anything under nidan was kind of a waste of time, just taking up valuable space as I won't "get" what Soke is teaching. He is now at the stage where he shows "feelings" and "concepts of movement" for the seniors to learn, understand and filter down to their students. That is what I was told. That for me to go there, I would not understand any of this as I am not at that stage of my training yet.

I have no problem with that. In fact it makes perfect sense to me.

But then I notice that if I ask a question of my sensei, he will shopw me the answer where possible. If I ask a question of some people on forum I am just told that because I have not been to japan I don't get it. Well sure, I haven't been, so that's why I'm asking.

I think its all the people always knocking me withat comment has actually put me off wanting to go to japan to train. I worry that maybe one day if I go to Japan, I will come back and when a white belt says something like "so why do we do this in this way" instead of explaining to him a reason and showing him, I'll roll my eyes and a) punch him to the floor (as Ben has suggested it is done in Japan), b) tell him to shut up and train because he just doesn't get it or c) say that until he goes to Japan himself he will never understand.

All that I am talking about here is peoples attitude. Why many of you convert an opinion against certain peoples attitudes and certain people's training methods as a hatred or alteration of this martial arts delivery system confuses me.

Oh well.

But having said that. There are some people in the BJK that I find to be an inspiration. Dale, Shinbushi, DWeidman, Seatle, Muqatil, Sean, Shane Obrien, Tim Bathurst, Craig, Ed Lomax and many others.

So please don't try and turn my comments into an RT hates the BJK attack. And please I hope the question on my sensei is not an attempt to turn it into a "your sensei doesn'ty get it" attack. That would be way too shallow and besides, I get enough PMs from the people I respect and the many others of my rank and higher in the BJK that tells me I am not wrong in my way of thinking. 

Yes, surprise surprise even people training in Japan.
~Nick


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## saru1968

My answers in Red.




seansnyder said:


> Wow that's ballsie a statement
> 
> Not really, common sense the more distant one is from the centre the less one sees, the more diluted it becomes. You can't tell me that someone who has no contact with others who regularly go or has been in the last few years will be more 'in tune' that those that do.
> 
> 
> What is your definition to close links: 1 visit per year, 2 visits per year, dinner with Hatsumi nightly.....??? Wait, did I not read the bottom statement...............
> 
> Close links, as in regular contact with and with people in the flow of information/training from Honbu.
> 
> 
> Really, why?
> 
> You want to discuss people that go to further there grades rather than their understanding? I don't.
> 
> 
> Sean Snyder


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## saru1968

Rubber Tanto said:


> Taijutsu training + pressure testing + randori is a different art? Why?
> 
> Nimravus just said that Shihan in Japan use Randori. Other seniors from Japan have told me that at least one shihan has some drills that are very similar to what we refer to as pressure testing. If this is correct, then why is it that because my dojo does it as part of its syllabus it makes it a different art?
> 
> 
> 
> ~Nick


 

I see randori and sparring as different creatures with different mindsets, as per the Japan trip there are the various Shihan to train with aswell as Soke. I certainly got more from the latter.

And in no way was i making a slight on your Instructor, just asking a question.

But i can see no useful purpose in continuing this dialogue.


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## Rook

Rubber Tanto said:


> Taijutsu training + pressure testing + randori is a different art? Why?


 
Much of this thread has been devoted to the idea that BBT and taking information and lessons from application are apparently incompatible.  I don't think you are likely to change the minds of the people on this thread, who have largely decided that faith in a certain group of other people supercedes all else.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

I originally posted the messages below in the belief that there would be an end to these kinds of discussions, at least in this particular forum. Silly me. 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=455191&postcount=1

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=543263&postcount=65


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## Rook

Don Roley said:


> Now, I would like to ask the following question.
> 
> Has anyone who has pressed for the need to train against MMA style attacks ever bothered to train against the types of attacks people in prison are training in?


 
Yes.  



> How about multiple opponents?


 
Drilled in many MMA training halls.  



> Have you ever even heard of the jackknife?


 
Yes.  



> (Take a look at the thread on the realities of weapons if you have not.)


 
Do you have a link?  



> Marc MacYoung makes a very simple, but true statement, that an enraged drunk will attack like an enraged drunk and not a trained martial artist.
> 
> So, how many people who want to be able to deal with Ken Shamrock have tried training against someone acting like an enraged drunk?


 
Delt with it in the real world, training held up fine.  If anything, people with no mind to defense are much easily to deal with.  



> You want realistic attacks? Well, you should be learing about the type of knife attacks people are learning in prison instead of what the latest sports figures are doing.


 
Sounds like you are looking at a manner of being attacked that is dangerous based on attributes (intense attack, determination, etc) not technique, which sounds to be quite poor.  Unless you have someone who can replicate that level of intensity and determination in the training hall, and I very much doubt that you do, you seem to be training against an unskilled and probably compliant attacker.  It sounds like you might be preparing for the technique of an unskilled fighter coming at a simulated intensity and would by my guess be unprepared for someone who is either skilled or working at the actual intensity.


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## MJS

Rook said:


> Sounds like you are looking at a manner of being attacked that is dangerous based on attributes (intense attack, determination, etc) not technique, which sounds to be quite poor. Unless you have someone who can replicate that level of intensity and determination in the training hall, and I very much doubt that you do, you seem to be training against an unskilled and probably compliant attacker. It sounds like you might be preparing for the technique of an unskilled fighter coming at a simulated intensity and would by my guess be unprepared for someone who is either skilled or working at the actual intensity.


 
Quick quesiton for you.  In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills?  I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting.  Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset.  Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.


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## Rook

MJS said:


> Quick quesiton for you. In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills? I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting. Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.


 
No, it really can't be.  You won't be able to get an attacker in the same state of mind in the dojo as some attackers have in the street, that is unless you work with complete wackos.  Thats why you have to up skill or fitness or something to compensate for the decreased bloodlust of the attacker or whatever the proper term is.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rook said:


> that is unless you work with complete wackos.


 
They show up sometimes as well.


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## MJS

Rook said:


> No, it really can't be. You won't be able to get an attacker in the same state of mind in the dojo as some attackers have in the street, that is unless you work with complete wackos. Thats why you have to up skill or fitness or something to compensate for the decreased bloodlust of the attacker or whatever the proper term is.


 
Ok, thanks.  So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?


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## Rook

MJS said:


> Ok, thanks. So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?


 
Which isn't at all possible?

Its possible to train against knives.  

I think that it is highly improbable that a person trains against the type of unstable aggression that some people who are mentally off will have.  Several of the people at my old karate dojo, two who formerly did corrections and one that was a narcontics agent were of the opinion that nothing that they could do would simulate the type of psycotic rage that they had seen from some of the people they had delt with.  I really have seen nothing to convince me that they were wrong.


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## MJS

Rook said:


> Which isn't at all possible?


 
You made this comment:



> Sounds like you are looking at a manner of being attacked that is dangerous based on attributes (intense attack, determination, etc) not technique, which sounds to be quite poor. Unless you have someone who can replicate that level of intensity and determination in the training hall, and I very much doubt that you do, you seem to be training against an unskilled and probably compliant attacker. It sounds like you might be preparing for the technique of an unskilled fighter coming at a simulated intensity and would by my guess be unprepared for someone who is either skilled or working at the actual intensity


 
I stated:

_



			Quick quesiton for you. In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills? I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting. Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.
		
Click to expand...

_ 
_You replied:_

_



			No, it really can't be. You won't be able to get an attacker in the same state of mind in the dojo as some attackers have in the street, that is unless you work with complete wackos. Thats why you have to up skill or fitness or something to compensate for the decreased bloodlust of the attacker or whatever the proper term is.
		
Click to expand...

_ 
_I commented:_

_



			Ok, thanks. So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?
		
Click to expand...

_ 


Its possible to train against knives. 

I think that it is highly improbable that a person trains against the type of unstable aggression that some people who are mentally off will have. Several of the people at my old karate dojo, two who formerly did corrections and one that was a narcontics agent were of the opinion that nothing that they could do would simulate the type of psycotic rage that they had seen from some of the people they had delt with. I really have seen nothing to convince me that they were wrong.[/quote]


That was pretty much it dude.   Nothing hidden in my comment, just wanted to clarify what you were saying.

Thanks,

Mike


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## Rook

MJS said:


> That was pretty much it dude.  Nothing hidden in my comment, just wanted to clarify what you were saying.


 
Ok.  I just wasn't sure whether you meant train against that type of aggression or if you meant train against knives in general in your followup.


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## Seattletcj

MJS said:


> Ok, thanks.  So basically, you're saying that its not at all possible?



Of course its impossible to completly simulate a violent encounter within a controlled environment of friends.
There are ways to come closer to preparing you for some aspects of this reality IMO. 
From Peyton Quinn's site :





> *THE METHOD  *The logic is simple, to get used to something you first have to experience it.
> The method is to place you into a scenario so real that your body does not know the difference. When you face the armored assailant for that first scenario your heart rate will increase,  and you may experience "auditory exclusion" and most likely a profound loss of fine motor control.
> 
> This may seem challenging for you to believe at first, but the following is a typical  report from attendants _*"I heard the line screaming loud, and then when it was my turn and I stepped out on the mat, ...suddenly I couldn't hear any of that  and  my heart was beating a mile a minute*__".
> 
> _But with each scenario you will regain more control of your body and your mind. You will strike & throw with full force to the head and groin of  a living, moving  assailant. Then  later, if it comes to a real attack  in the street or your home you won't have to "do it all right the first time out". Your body will have already  have been there & you will thus respond appropriately and effectively!


Sounds like "alive" training. hmmm


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## Rook

Seattletcj said:


> Of course its impossible to completly simulate a violent encounter within a controlled environment of friends.


 
I agree.  




> There are ways to come closer to preparing you for some aspects of this reality IMO.
> From Peyton Quinn's site :Sounds like "alive" training. hmmm


 
Matt Thorton would say that Quinn is not fully alive in that he still preserves a uke/tori / attacker/defender roles as a condition of his training.


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## MJS

Seattletcj said:


> Of course its impossible to completly simulate a violent encounter within a controlled environment of friends.
> There are ways to come closer to preparing you for some aspects of this reality IMO.
> From Peyton Quinn's site :Sounds like "alive" training. hmmm


 
I'm not disagreeing, and this sounds like what I was trying to say in my post.  I stated:



> Quick quesiton for you. In your honest opinion, do you feel that this can be replicated with scenario drills? I mean, a drill is a drill, but alot of it is going to come down to how well the attacker is acting. Its up to him to put the defender in the proper mindset. Peyton Quinn does this with some of his drills.


 
Notice that I did state and acknowledge that a drill is a drill.  Maybe theres some confusion here, I don't know.  I was suggesting to train as Peyton is suggesting, but it was said that its not possible.


----------



## Seattletcj

Rook said:


> Matt Thorton would say that Quinn is not fully alive in that he still preserves a uke/tori / attacker/defender roles as a condition of his training.



I dont know. It does fulfil the need for energy, timing, and motion that Mr Thornton uses to describe aliveness.  I dont think from what I've read the SBG wants to train people to be knife fighters, i.e tori with knife. I believe their S.T.A.B program is geared around defense only. I could be wrong. Maybe thats for PR reasons, not sure.


----------



## Seattletcj

MJS said:


> I'm not disagreeing, and this sounds like what I was trying to say in my post.



Ok. I see what your saying.


----------



## MJS

Rook said:


> Matt Thorton would say that Quinn is not fully alive in that he still preserves a uke/tori / attacker/defender roles as a condition of his training.


 
I'd say that he (Quinn) is making his training a bit more alive than some.  I mean, at least hes not having the attacker attack and stand there while the defender does his thing.  The attacker is putting the defender under more pressure than average I'd think.

Mike


----------



## Rook

MJS said:


> I'd say that he (Quinn) is making his training a bit more alive than some. I mean, at least hes not having the attacker attack and stand there while the defender does his thing. The attacker is putting the defender under more pressure than average I'd think.


 
Absolutely.  He may even end up putting him under more pressure than he would face in some fully alive sparring with opponents who prefer to fight as a counterfighter.


----------



## Seattletcj

Rook said:


> Absolutely.  He may even end up putting him under more pressure than he would face in some fully alive sparring.......



If your opponents look like world conquering robots from a 1940s scifi movie
then ya that can create more pressure.  
On the other hand its kind of hard to miss your target when the [SIZE=-1]circumference[/SIZE] of his head is 3 feet.


----------



## jks9199

Bigshadow said:


> IMO, I really don't think it is necessary to be constantly on that red-alert level of awareness.  I firmly believe that if you relax and just enjoy life (but be aware, but relaxed), your senses will alarm you when the time comes.  I think to go about constantly on guard stifles those signals and feelings and it is counter productive to what is real and what is not.  Just my opinions.



Cooper's Color Code provides a reasonable model for good & functional awareness levels.  It's relatively easy to find (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)#Combat_Mindset_-_The_Cooper_Color_Code), so I won't break into the details.  Most people should be in Condition Yellow when they leave home; a cop, corrections officer or other similar professions should regularly be escalating into Yellow or Red as necessary in their course of duty.  I was taught that Condition Black is panic; others use a different definition for Black (Cooper himself seems not to have used Black).  To me, most civilians won't ordinarly escalate under control to Orange or Red; they'll suddenly find themselves going from at best Yellow to Black.  I would hope anyone reading this board would be at least in Yellow to start, and hopefully recognize the developing situation and escalate more appropriately.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

saru1968 said:


> I see randori and sparring as different creatures with different mindsets, as per the Japan trip there are the various Shihan to train with as well as Soke. I certainly got more from the latter...


 
For Bujinkan training, I see randori and sparring as the same thing and that is a situation with one pre-agreed defender and one or more pre-agreed attacker with the scope of trying to use what we have learned in our taijustu to a) as defender, shut down, subdue and nuetralise our attacker/s and b) as attacker, to wear down, subdue and nuetralise the defender. 

At any point where your opponent can no longer defend himself with correct technique/movement, you stop or slow it down until you move at a pace that they can once again continue.

But I also train with guys outside of the system (grappling, stand up etc) and in these cases sparring/randori is exactly the same except the is no attaacker/defender agreement. Each hunts the other and shifts in and out of attack/defend mode accordingly. Everything else is the same.

I've trained where one person is only allowed to do a certain attack (jab/cross/hook combo) and the other only allowed to block. But both are free to move and circle and attack as the please...keeping it still completely dynamic so I consider this to be controlled randori/sparring.

That is my definition.

I consider "fighting" to be any sparring session where the goal is to "win" the bout. I do this occasionaly as well, only because I like to see how I cope with the stress of unrelenting pressure, and I have found that rules do not hinder me in any way. I make it my practice to roll with serious realistic training partner. If I manage to grab two fingers they will tap to acknowledge a finger lock/break etc...

In the end... sparring/randori/touching gloves/cross kicks...call it what you like, train it the way you are comfortable. It is that simple really.

On Randori: To me the best thing about randori is it takes away the "fear" linked to someone randomly attacking you inside your personal space where you no longer have the luxury and time to stop and think about what you are doing.


----------



## exile

jks9199 said:


> Cooper's Color Code provides a reasonable model for good & functional awareness levels.  It's relatively easy to find (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)#Combat_Mindset_-_The_Cooper_Color_Code), so I won't break into the details.  Most people should be in Condition Yellow when they leave home; a cop, corrections officer or other similar professions should regularly be escalating into Yellow or Red as necessary in their course of duty.  I was taught that Condition Black is panic; others use a different definition for Black (Cooper himself seems not to have used Black).  To me, most civilians won't ordinarly escalate under control to Orange or Red; they'll suddenly find themselves going from at best Yellow to Black.  I would hope anyone reading this board would be at least in Yellow to start, and hopefully recognize the developing situation and escalate more appropriately.



It's definitely situational. On the street, in broad daylight, in most contexts, I am somewhere in the yellow range. If I have to go into a parkade to get my car, it goes into red automatically, and I have weapons immediately available (I do _not_ like parking garages!!) This is also true when I'm in other enclosed spaces (e.g., on a bus) where there's little chance of assistance if things start getting weird. At night, I'm in red under most circumstances. 

I think the crucial skill that needs to be developed is, for most people, the ability to identify strange behavior in other people, things even subtlely different from normal patterns of action and reaction. The sucker punch is always a possibility, so you need to be ready to react when someone imposes on your space in a way that could be threatening (whether or not they show obvious intent), just as seeing a driver on the road getting a bit too close to your car should immediately pop your defensive driving skills to the top of your stack. 

In principle, yes, you want to minimize the amount of time you spend in the red zone. The problem is that it's only in hindsight that you know which were the genuinely threatening situations and which were harmless. The incidence of the former is only a minute fraction of the frequency of the latterbut you don't know which is which while you're in the situation. It's like working with corrupted data: if you know that only a tiny amount of the data you're working with is corrupt, _but you don't know which data are the baddies_, then you can't trust your results. So I find it better to anticipate trouble that, statistically anyway, will very likely never occurjust in case it _does_. Doing it that way is costly in terms of stress, but, I'm betting, not as costly as what I'll have to pay if, as Andy M.'s signature puts it, I'm caught nappin'.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

exile said:


> It's definitely situational. On the street, in broad daylight, in most contexts, I am somewhere in the yellow range. If I have to go into a parkade to get my car, it goes into red automatically, and I have weapons immediately available (I do _not_ like parking garages!!) This is also true when I'm in other enclosed spaces (e.g., on a bus) where there's little chance of assistance if things start getting weird. At night, I'm in red under most circumstances.
> 
> I think the crucial skill that needs to be developed is, for most people, the ability to identify strange behavior in other people, things even subtlely different from normal patterns of action and reaction. The sucker punch is always a possibility, so you need to be ready to react when someone imposes on your space in a way that could be threatening (whether or not they show obvious intent), just as seeing a driver on the road getting a bit too close to your car should immediately pop your defensive driving skills to the top of your stack.
> 
> In principle, yes, you want to minimize the amount of time you spend in the red zone. The problem is that it's only in hindsight that you know which were the genuinely threatening situations and which were harmless. The incidence of the former is only a minute fraction of the frequency of the latterbut you don't know which is which while you're in the situation. It's like working with corrupted data: if you know that only a tiny amount of the data you're working with is corrupt, _but you don't know which data are the baddies_, then you can't trust your results. So I find it better to anticipate trouble that, statistically anyway, will very likely never occurjust in case it _does_. Doing it that way is costly in terms of stress, but, I'm betting, not as costly as what I'll have to pay if, as Andy M.'s signature puts it, I'm caught nappin'.


 

Nice post!  Beyond just amping up your visual, hearing and mental acuity into a range or awareness there is also the ability to just* feel* when something is not right.  Bigshadow alluded to this earlier in his post.  This ability to sence danger is within all of us and if you ever get a chance to read Gavin De Becker's book "The Gift of Fear" I would highly recommend it.  Learning to trust your gut feelings/intuition is essential and allows you to be protected even when in a yellow stage.  This type of sensitivity is very important for people involved in high risk jobs and right down to your average eveyday citizen.  Once again nice post Exile!


----------



## exile

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nice post!  Beyond just amping up your visual, hearing and mental acuity into a range or awareness there is also the ability to just* feel* when something is not right.  Bigshadow alluded to this earlier in his post.  This ability to sence danger is within all of us and if you ever get a chance to read Gavin De Becker's book "The Gift of Fear" I would highly recommend it.  Learning to trust your gut feelings/intuition is essential and allows you to be protected even when in a yellow stage.  This type of sensitivity is very important for people involved in high risk jobs and right down to your average eveyday citizen.  Once again nice post Exile!



Thanks for the kind words, Brian :asian:I've heard nothing but good things about De Becker's book, from a number of different sourcesit's definitely on my `must read SOON' list. I agree with you completely that the ability to train our situational radar is inside all of uswired into our nervous system, almost certainly. But like a lot of latent abilities, it _stays_ latent unless we supply it with the right kind of training experiences to bring it out and switch it on. 

A lot of people unfortunately confuse this kind of awareness with paranoia. But paranoia is genuinely delusional, involving the absolute conviction that there are specific plots and threats already afoot which specifically target the individual holding the delusion. What's at issue here, however, is just the sober recognition of the built-in hazards of life in society and the need to anticipate infrequent events which are however genuinely catastrophic should they occurkind of like planning for tornados in the midwest, earthquakes on the west coast, and so on. Ya gotta have a plan!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

exile said:


> Thanks for the kind words, Brian :asian:I've heard nothing but good things about De Becker's book, from a number of different sourcesit's definitely on my `must read SOON' list. I agree with you completely that the ability to train our situational radar is inside all of uswired into our nervous system, almost certainly. But like a lot of latent abilities, it _stays_ latent unless we supply it with the right kind of training experiences to bring it out and switch it on.
> 
> A lot of people unfortunately confuse this kind of awareness with paranoia. But paranoia is genuinely delusional, involving the absolute conviction that there are specific plots and threats already afoot which specifically target the individual holding the delusion. What's at issue here, however, is just the sober recognition of the built-in hazards of life in society and the need to anticipate infrequent events which are however genuinely catastrophic should they occurkind of like planning for tornados in the midwest, earthquakes on the west coast, and so on. Ya gotta have a plan!


 

Absolutely having a plan is a great position to be in when a violent encounter happens!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you. %-}


----------



## jks9199

exile said:


> A lot of people unfortunately confuse this kind of awareness with paranoia. But paranoia is genuinely delusional, involving the absolute conviction that there are specific plots and threats already afoot which specifically target the individual holding the delusion. What's at issue here, however, is just the sober recognition of the built-in hazards of life in society and the need to anticipate infrequent events which are however genuinely catastrophic should they occurkind of like planning for tornados in the midwest, earthquakes on the west coast, and so on. Ya gotta have a plan!



Paranoia is negative awareness.  Being TOO stressed about what may happen means that you won't realize when something DOES happen.  (Robert Asprin once wrote something along the lines of "If you spend all your time worrying about tomorrow or yesterday, you'll trip right over today.")

Functional awareness is just common-sense.  (Which means it's not too common in reality!)  Knowing dangerous situations, and preparing to respond appropriately is just plain being smart.


----------



## exile

jks9199 said:


> Paranoia is negative awareness.  Being TOO stressed about what may happen means that you won't realize when something DOES happen.  (Robert Asprin once wrote something along the lines of "If you spend all your time worrying about tomorrow or yesterday, you'll trip right over today.")
> 
> Functional awareness is just common-sense.  (Which means it's not too common in reality!)  Knowing dangerous situations, and preparing to respond appropriately is just plain being smart.



Oddly enough, though, a lot of people seem to believe that if you don't prepare for the worst, it won't ever happen. It's a kind of magical thinking. There are also people who seem to believe that if you _obsess_ about the worst case, it'll never happen. 

But I think that it's very common for MAists to assume that technical mastery equates to combate effectiveness. The mistake is confusing what's necessarymartial skillswith what's sufficientmartial skills _plus_ mental/emotional awareness _plus_ a maximally realistic training program. Technical ability is just the starting point. As you say, common sense, but in fact rather _uncommon_, when you start looking for it...


----------



## Seattletcj

From a slightly different angle....

If you are caught off guard and the _____ hits the fan, will you have the presence of mind to respond quickly and appropriately? Here is a clip of a boxer (_*sport fighter_*) who immediately springs into action with  the appropriate overwhelming response needed to neutralize the threat of the multiple attacker scenario. (In another longer version of the same clip it shows the two thugs practicing together previous to the encounter, on how to grab and control someone)






This response time is related to awareness and the OODA loop.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

So bringing it back around towards the origional topic, is your training helping you to process fast enough through the OODA loop to be effective during a real time interaction, with unpredictable and resistant opponents (and your own adrenal dump),  if you only train slow and with mainly compliant partners?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Kata training isn't always slow. Nor is it always done with totally compliant people.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


>



That video is like shooting fish in a barrel. Those guys were not a serious threat, it is pretty obvious they didn't want any of that.



Seattletcj said:


> This response time is related to awareness and the OODA loop.....
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
> 
> So bringing it back around towards the origional topic, is your training helping you to process fast enough through the OODA loop to be effective during a real time interaction, with unpredictable and resistant opponents (and your own adrenal dump),  if you only train slow and with mainly compliant partners?




I don't believe you can train yourself to complete the ooda loop any faster.  That is a natural process of the conscious thought that must be performed.  However, it was lack of awareness that puts people into ooda.   That is why SWAT teams use the tactics they do, it is to keep the people in ooda.  That is all about surprise attack.  If you are caught by surprise, I don't believe you can speed the ooda up. If the attacker knows what he/she is doing, they can keep you in ooda.  You will simply have to tough it out until they pause just long enough for the brain to catch up.

Also, while in ooda, everything seems so fast, when it may not be.


----------



## Seattletcj

Bigshadow said:


> That video is like shooting fish in a barrel. Those guys were not a serious threat, it is pretty obvious they didn't want any of that.



Pretty obvious? , hmmm. So they didnt know what was going to happen after they backhanded the guys girlfriend? I see. Just a couple of guys randomly hitting people and oblivious to any response the action may generate. 
I did mention that there was another longer version of the clip which showed the guys practicing how to grab and control someone.

 And the outcome had nothing to do with the boxers quick, skillful and accurate strikes that kept the thugs confused? Just dumb luck. LOL. maybe.
I guess we each see what we want to see. 

From the OODA article : 





> As one of Boyd's colleagues, Harry Hillaker, put it in his article "John Boyd, USAF Retired, Father of the F16" [2]: _The key is to obscure your intentions and make them unpredictable to your opponent while you simultaneously clarify his intentions. That is, operate at a faster tempo to generate rapidly changing conditions that inhibit your opponent from adapting or reacting to those changes and that suppress or destroy his awareness. Thus, a hodgepodge of confusion and disorder occur to cause him to over- or under-react to conditions or activities that appear to be uncertain, ambiguous, or incomprehensible. _


 AND 





> But *practice* and mental focus may allow one to reduce the time scale, get inside the opponent's OODA loop, and take control of the situation - to cause the opponent to move in a particular way, and generate an advantage rather than merely reacting to an accident.





Bigshadow said:


> I don't believe you can train yourself to complete the ooda loop any faster.
> That is a natural process of the conscious thought that must be performed.  However, it was lack of awareness that puts people into ooda.


Actually everyone is always in an OODA loop. Its more about how well/fast you can respond to change in order to complete your loop.
Re-read the article. Here is a portion that may help explain how it works.



> As the dogfight begins, little time is devoted to orienting unless some new information pertaining to the actual identity or intent of the attacker comes into play. Information cascades in real time, and the pilot *does not have time to process it consciously*; the pilot reacts *as he is trained to*, and conscious thought is directed to supervising the flow of action and reaction, continuously repeating the OODA cycle. Simultaneously, the opponent is going through the same cycle.
> How does one interfere with an opponent's OODA cycle? One of John Boyd's primary insights in fighter combat was that it is vital to change speed and direction faster than the opponent. This is not necessarily a function of the plane's ability to maneuver, rather the pilot must think and act faster than the opponent can think and act. Getting "inside" the cycle &#8212; short-circuiting the opponent's thinking processes - produces opportunities for the opponent to react inappropriately.


I'm sure you would agree that the more you practice something the better you get at it right? The more basketball you play the quicker you can mentally respond to changes in play.



> Also, while in ooda, everything seems so fast, when it may not be.


I'd argue that the faster you cycle through the loop, the slower things seem.
Just my opinion. I'm not an expert on it.


----------



## Rook

Bigshadow said:


> That video is like shooting fish in a barrel. Those guys were not a serious threat, it is pretty obvious they didn't want any of that.


 
Thats true, but lets think about why for a second.  These two attackers had all the advantages - the were bigger, they had the element of suprise, they had enough planning before hand to put a 3rd man up on a hill to observe with a camera, they took the offensive, and the "boxer's" girlfriend was hanging onto him a good part of the time he was fighting.   Yet, they got beaten decisively by a fifth rate "boxer" throwing some pretty wild shots.


----------



## Bigshadow

Seattletcj said:


> I guess we each see what we want to see.



What I saw was what would appear as vengence at work.  What ever happened to "Do only what is necessary, no more, no less"?  Anyway I am not so sure what happened was a surprise to anyone.

As for the OODA loop, I really was thinking from the point of view of short circuiting it.  I will read through the link again.  It has been a year since I have read the wiki on it after learning of it from a LEO student.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> If your opponents look like world conquering robots from a 1940s scifi movie
> then ya that can create more pressure.
> On the other hand its kind of hard to miss your target when the [SIZE=-1]circumference[/SIZE] of his head is 3 feet.



You know, if you want to say that people should do things your way, you should at least try something like Peytonn Quinn's stuff before you start to make fun of it. I have done what *you* are advocating. But it looks like you are looking for a chance avoid the training *I* have gone through. So when we are talking about people staying in their nice, safe, little boxes, guess who is the subject of conversation?


----------



## Rubber Tanto

I kind of agree a little with everyone here but I really do understand where seattletcj is coming from on this one:







The head guard is so big it gives a false understanding of targeting (to big and easy to hit an area)as well as takes away the opportunity to learn specific points to pinpoint such as under the cheek bone, the nose, eye socket etc... On the other end of the scale, the attacker cannot move his hands realistically to cover up his giant head so you also don't get to appreciate how blocking hands can mess with your defence.

Would make a cool book though..."Muggers are from Mars, Martial Artists are from Venus"

(Noticed how I managed to keep completely away from uranus :angel: )


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> The head guard is so big it gives a false understanding of targeting (to big and easy to hit an area)as well as takes away the opportunity to learn specific points to pinpoint such as under the cheek bone, the nose, *eye socket* etc... On the other end of the scale, the attacker cannot move his hands realistically to cover up his giant head so you also don't get to appreciate how blocking hands can mess with your defence.



And can you show me a way that I can slam full force blows repeatedly into the eye socket?

Slow targeting of the eye socket in training drills, precision strikes to points on the makiwara or bag and training such as this seems to be about the only way to get that type of skill.

(This point, of course, goes for all the targets.)


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> And can you show me a way that I can slam full force blows repeatedly into the eye socket?
> 
> Slow targeting of the eye socket in training drills, precision strikes to points on the makiwara or bag and training such as this seems to be about the only way to get that type of skill.
> 
> (This point, of course, goes for all the targets.)


 
It doesn't look like you could target the eye socket through a helmet that big.  You would just be hitting in the general area while hitting the helmet.  I doubt that a person in such a suit could launch a credible attack either.


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> It doesn't look like you could target the eye socket through a helmet that big.  You would just be hitting in the general area while hitting the helmet.  I doubt that a person in such a suit could launch a credible attack either.



I should have been more clear. There is more to training than just one aspect. The slow training targetting the areas I talked about was with _unarmored_ opponents.

As for launching credible attacks- try _at least_ viewing a clip of them in action if there is one before you turn your back on the concept.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> I should have been more clear. There is more to training than just one aspect. The slow training targetting the areas I talked about was with _unarmored_ opponents.
> 
> As for launching credible attacks- try _at least_ viewing a clip of them in action if there is one before you turn your back on the concept.


 
I've been to seminars where people wore suits similar to the one pictured.  I understand what it is like to be attacked by a person wearing it, although not a Peyton Quinn affiliated seminar.  If you have video of Quinn's seminar and how it might be different, I would be happy to take the time to see it and comment accordingly.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> And can you show me a way that I can slam full force blows repeatedly into the eye socket?


 
yeah sure. 

You wear something like these:






and your uke can wear something like this:





or this:






or this (recommended):






and You can be more accurate in where you land your blows at full speed and energy, gain better muscle memory, have a better feeling for the size of the target under prassure and resistance and your uke won't get hurt.

Hope this helps
~Nick


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> You know, if you want to say that people should do things your way, you should at least try something like Peytonn Quinn's stuff before you start to make fun of it.



Just joking around. I see the value in it for sure.



> I have done what *you* are advocating. But it looks like you are looking for a chance avoid the training *I* have gone through. So when we are talking about people staying in their nice, safe, little boxes, guess who is the subject of conversation?



 LOL. What I've been advocating, is exactly what you are defending. Aliveness. I dont see the conflict. Relax.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Rubber Tanto said:


> yeah sure.
> 
> You wear something like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and your uke can wear something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this (recommended):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and You can be more accurate in where you land your blows at full speed and energy, gain better muscle memory, have a better feeling for the size of the target under prassure and resistance and your uke won't get hurt.
> 
> Hope this helps
> ~Nick


 
This is very similar to alot of the gear that I use.  Great stuff to work with.


----------



## Rook

Seattletcj said:


> LOL. What I've been advocating, is exactly what you are defending. Aliveness. I dont see the conflict. Relax.


 
I don't get it.  You and Don are coming at this from completely different directions and I don't see at all how you are both after aliveness in the sense ussually meant.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Rook said:


> I don't get it. You and Don are coming at this from completely different directions and I don't see at all how you are both after aliveness in the sense ussually meant.


 
Rook when practicing Budo Taijutsu I train the way Hatsumi Sensei teaches. (at least I try to)  However in IRT I train similarly and yet differently.  I am not against rolling, sparring or any other types of training method.  Though I would say if you are practicing Budo Taijutsu then you should try to be studying it the way it is taught in Japan.  I believe Don feels the same way.  Hope that helps.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is very similar to alot of the gear that I use. Great stuff to work with.


 
Oh yeah!
You just have to be careful on the MMA gloves you choose as some gloves have wrist support that takes away the "bite" of a wrist lock.

I keep an open face and closed face guard because I have noticed that some times the closed face gives you a false sense of security.

Brian, back on thread topic...what would you say would be your most realistic training drill in your dojo/gym?
~Nick


----------



## Seattletcj

Rook said:


> I don't get it.  You and Don are coming at this from completely different directions and I don't see at all how you are both after aliveness in the sense ussually meant.



What I understand aliveness to be is something with motion timing and energy. It can be a drill, scenario training, or sparring. It does not require tori/tori. Something as simple as jab vs jab is not totally realistic, but is alive and usefull as a drill to develop certain attributes.
What Peyton Quinn does is alive, as far as I can tell.  A clip would help though. 

I am suprised that Don agrees with the methodology, especially since it is not practiced in Japan, or taught by the shihan.

 I guess a good training method is a good training method, right?


----------



## makoto-dojo

Seattletcj said:


> I am suprised that Don agrees with the methodology, especially since it is not practiced in Japan, or taught by the shihan.
> 
> I guess a good training method is a good training method, right?


 

I must agree with you on this one Dom. Seems weird...

Also:


Brian R. VanCise said:


> Rook when practicing Budo Taijutsu I train the way Hatsumi Sensei teaches. (at least I try to) However in IRT I train similarly and yet differently. I am not against rolling, sparring or any other types of training method. Though I would say if you are practicing Budo Taijutsu then you should try to be studying it the way it is taught in Japan. I believe Don feels the same way. Hope that helps.


 
This is EXACTLY what I was saying on another thread (you know the one...) When I teach Tanemura Sensei's arts, I do it "by the book"! I do however have a Jissen-Kai class where we drill and exercise and use Takamatsu-den techniques. But I don't change the actual Genbukan classes...

I also teach and still have teachers in JKD, Kali grappling etc. where we do alive drills etc. My point with the other post was that if you experience other arts in a more free form exchange, you will learn through experience that you can't leave your arm out there for example. And if you train a bit more alive you will come away with experience and know for yourself what you can do and what you can't.

It makes me wonder looking at the quoted posts, why i received so much bad rep with comments like "I think I know more than hatsumi" and all sorts of crazy comments.. I never said Bujinkan people should change what Hatsumi San teaches them. I wa and always have been talking about gaining experience. And it appears that other who are IN the Bujinkan do the same.

Mr. VanCise spars, but they don't in Japan right? Mr Hatsumi has said not to right? Mr. Hatsumi is his kancho correct? So he is doing something directly against what Hatsumi advises no?

Its silly.. Honestly LOL!

For the record, I am not trying to get on Mr. VanCise here. I am happy he spars etc. Good for him, just pointing out what appears like a bit of a double standard among some folks.

Am I reading this wrong? Not just me either, what about the flack Domonic is taking?

If I am missing something I am open to an explaination.

Sincerely,


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> yeah sure.
> 
> You wear something like these:



No, not the way I do strikes to the eyes. I put my thumbs in the eye sockets. You can't do that with these. Nor can you do a lot of the stuff that imapcts the neck. When someone is hit on the chin in a boxing ring and goes down, it is the whiplash of the kneck that really knocks them out.

And it looks like you are training with this type of stuff to get the  habit of striking to the face with a closed fist. That is not something I do. Try talking to some people with a lot of experience hitting other people. They will say that something like a _shakoken_ to the chin and then attacking with the _shishiken_ and the like from there while controlling the head and kneck is a better choice. _A lot_ of people break their hands striking with a closed fist to the face.

You can't do this with what you use, nor can you do it with the bulletman suits. _Nothing_ other than combat is like real combat. And anyone trying to say that because they do "X" that they will do well in combat is just fooling themselves. If you look at one part of training (like kata) you will only get one angle on the problem. The problem is that many people take a look at just that one angle and treat it as the whole picture as a straw man argument it seems. And they can't accept the fact that with the thousands of years and mulitiple cultures that have been devoted to hitting other people that there is any other method of learning than their own.


----------



## Don Roley

makoto-dojo said:


> This is EXACTLY what I was saying on another thread (you know the one...) When I teach Tanemura Sensei's arts, I do it "by the book"! I do however have a Jissen-Kai class where we drill and exercise and use Takamatsu-den techniques.



I think the reason you got so much flak in the thread you started was that you posted it in a section devoted to discussions about how training is done in Japan. If you freely admit that what you do is not how the training is done in Japan, then there are other areas that you can post it in without sounding like you are trying to seem more knowledgeable than the soke of the art you study.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> I am suprised that Don agrees with the methodology, especially since it is not practiced in Japan, or taught by the shihan.
> 
> I guess a good training method is a good training method, right?



Yes. But you may note that I do not try to force my views about Quinn in threads here. I mention it from time to time. But there is a whole lot of stuff we can learn from the lessons of those that have gone before us. This is the section to talk about those lessons *from Japan* and not something else.

I am not against other forms of training, despite what some have tried to say. But when I read threads here I don't want to hear about something that approaches the problem differently than the guys in Japan. Others have already complained about how lately it seems that there are people intent in making sure that no one else can talk or train other than how they do and wondered why they feel the need to force their views on others.


----------



## makoto-dojo

Don Roley said:


> I think the reason you got so much flak in the thread you started was that you posted it in a section devoted to discussions about how training is done in Japan. If you freely admit that what you do is not how the training is done in Japan, then there are other areas that you can post it in without sounding like you are trying to seem more knowledgeable than the soke of the art you study.


 
Mr. Roley,

thank you for your post. I suppose I misunderstood this forum then. I assumed that it was just "x-kan" talk I didn't know it was limited to Japan style training. So, sumimasen to anyone I offended with my posts.

However I do see topics in this forum that speak about training different than done in Japan, even some of the training you have mentioned in this very thread. or the sparring related thread etc.

So to be honest, I'm just not understanding, I still see a double standard. But in the end its only a forum no big deal... 

Best,


----------



## makoto-dojo

Don Roley said:


> I am not against other forms of training, despite what some have tried to say. But when I read threads here I don't want to hear about something that approaches the problem differently than the guys in Japan. *Others have already complained about how lately it seems that there are people intent in making sure that no one else can talk or train other than how they do and wondered why they feel the need to force their views on others.*




Mr. Roley,

I am not saying you are talking about me here, but just in case, or in case someone else might think you are, I would like to say a few things.

I truly do not see how I am forcing my views on anyone here. I mean, it is a discussion forum is it not? I also assumed it was a "free speech" discussion forum. In other words, as long as you are not breaking any rules, I didn't see where you had to agree with someone in order to post here.

I could argue that others are trying to force their opinions on me here! LOL!

Let me give you an example. Ben Cole (and, btw, I have no hard feelings for Ben. I find that our views are just about as different as you can get on most things Budo, but I don't take it personal...) Ben could be accused of pontificating on every board he joins, he out-right states that he understands Mr. Hatsumi and can recreate many things he does. He out-right say's his way is the correct way and almost bullies others with different views. Can he be accused of forcing his views on others?


Of course not! because it is a disscussion forum LOL! You are not forced to read his views, and if you do, you are not forced to believe them! LOL! I read some of his stuff, I ignore others stuff. I agree sometimes and don't agree other times, but I never felt forced to believe or adopt his logic and ways!

If I write with vigor, it is because I am debating! LOL! It almost seems like people have weak opinions and when faced with a strong opinion the feel bullied. You yourself have been VERY forcefull in your views on forums and you know it is true. Are you "forcing" your views on people? I never took it that way. I just always assumed that you were confident in your opinions...

What I honestly believe is the true problem (not saying you btw) is that before I and maybe others came on here, most people were bujinkan and most people agreed with each other. I and others had strong differing opinions and it upset the apple cart. So, people complained.

And also, some people just have an axe to grind with me (which is their problem, kind of strange I matter so much to people I never even met) some of them are moderators here as well which allows them to abuse their station due to their bias (but that's cool...)

In the end, while you or others may never like me, I can assure you one thing, if we were to meet face to face, and you could hear my voice and see my face, you would understand that I mean no disrespect and actually after a hearty debate, I would be fine with agreeing to disagree and buy you a drink.

In the end, its just opinions, no more no less, we are all doing what we feel is best. I admit I am passionate, but believe it or not, I do not think badly of any of you and actually respect you all for being so passionate about the traditions we all love so much.

Anyway that's how I feel about it.

Sincerely,


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> No, not the way I do strikes to the eyes. I put my thumbs in the eye sockets. You can't do that with these.


that is just one isolated technique...you're saying to throw the whole concept of training with such equipment over a boshiken? 



Don Roley said:


> Nor can you do a lot of the stuff that imapcts the neck. When someone is hit on the chin in a boxing ring and goes down, it is the whiplash of the kneck that really knocks them out.


Not all the time and it depends on the person. I did kick boxing before I was in the bujinkan and I was a bouncer during that time for a nightclub. I have been hit on the chin quite a few times and it doesn't effect me like that. It's the punch that clcoks the chin that you are not ready for that drops you.



Don Roley said:


> And it looks like you are training with this type of stuff to get the habit of striking to the face with a closed fist. That is not something I do.


 
Bad assumption. I actually train very little with a headguard. I prefer myself and my partner to train without guards. Just mma mitts. Most people in my dojo prefer the headguard during full contact randori. Outside the dojo those I train with are not so concerened.



Don Roley said:


> Try talking to some people with a lot of experience hitting other people.


 
25 years MA experience. Tried my hand at competition, worked as a bouncer...hmm...shall I talk to myself? (My wife might think I'm daft!)



Don Roley said:


> They will say that something like a _shakoken_ to the chin and then attacking with the _shishiken_ and the like from there while controlling the head and kneck is a better choice.


Sure. I can agree with that.



Don Roley said:


> _A lot_ of people break their hands striking with a closed fist to the face.


 that's what happens when you don't know how to make a proper fist and get used to hitting soft targets or wear mitts all the time. That's why I work my sand-filled punching bag bare fisted only.



Don Roley said:


> You can't do this with what you use, nor can you do it with the bulletman suits. _Nothing_ other than combat is like real combat. And anyone trying to say that because they do "X" that they will do well in combat is just fooling themselves.


Of course! But then could we not argue that if you were to take a person "A" who trains taijutsu, with pressure testing, with resistance, with randori (using proper taijutsu in randori) and with realistic energy drills and put him up against person "B" who trains taijutsu with kata only, that person "A" will be as a massive advantage? 



Don Roley said:


> If you look at one part of training (like kata) you will only get one angle on the problem. The problem is that many people take a look at just that one angle and treat it as the whole picture as a straw man argument it seems. And they can't accept the fact that with the thousands of years and mulitiple cultures that have been devoted to hitting other people that there is any other method of learning than their own.


 
I understand and agree.
That is why I try to train all aspects to further enhance my understanding and ability to apply the delivery system.

Cheers
Nick


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-
*


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> that is just one isolated technique...you're saying to throw the whole concept of training with such equipment over a boshiken?



It illustrates that there is no one way to perfectly duplicate a violent encounter. Some scream about how kata, etc is not real fighting and is thus useless. But as I just pointed out, there is no one way that covers everything. Which of course you agreed with me in the following section.



> Of course! But then could we not argue that if you were to take a person "A" who trains taijutsu, with pressure testing, with resistance, with randori (using proper taijutsu in randori) and with realistic energy drills and put him up against person "B" who trains taijutsu with kata only, that person "A" will be as a massive advantage?



You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the _only_ way to reach this goal.

There may be things about the Bujinkan you have not seen yet. Things are laid out in an order for a reason. :wink1:


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the _only_ way to reach this goal.


 
Not true. And there is no post where you will find I have said randori is THE ONLY way. I apreciate my kata training very much. It is in kata training that I learn to take balance, correct posture, footwork, distancing, technique mechanics & body physics etc. It is in randori that I learn timing, speed and force and to apply what I learnt in kata to someone that does not want it applied.

We also run through kata sometimes where the uke partially resists and certain degrees or resistance. Is this what you are talking about?



Don Roley said:


> There may be things about the Bujinkan you have not seen yet. Things are laid out in an order for a reason. :wink1:


Yes I am sure. Hence why I enjoy it so much.


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> It is in randori that I learn timing, speed and force and to apply what I learnt in kata to someone that does not want it applied.
> 
> We also run through kata sometimes where the uke partially resists and certain degrees or resistance. Is this what you are talking about?



You should not have to rely on randori to teach you things like timing, etc. We have hashed this out before here in another thread. I will try to remember it. But there are a lot of things that go on in kata that is not quite what you are talking about, but close.

However, you may not have seen this because your teacher either thinks you are not ready or he himself was never in a position to see it. I have talked about it before, and I have also talked about how it can't transmitted in large groups and how I do not know how I could do it in an American dojo with all the damn lawyers they have. I do not know about your situation, or who your teacher is, etc.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the _only_ way to reach this goal.


 
If kata can have pressure testing, you have a very different definition of pressure testing than the one commonly used.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> And it looks like you are training with this type of stuff to get the habit of striking to the face with a closed fist. That is not something I do. Try talking to some people with a lot of experience hitting other people.


 
I think you should consider watching modern bareknuckle boxing,  bareknuckle kickboxing, modern and old bareknucle MMA and notice how few times people break their hands and how little effect it has on them when they do.


----------



## rutherford

Rook said:


> If kata can have pressure testing, you have a very different definition of pressure testing than the one commonly used.



No.

It's a very different definition of Kata than the one commonly used.


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> It illustrates that there is no one way to perfectly duplicate a violent encounter. Some scream about how kata, etc is not real fighting and is thus useless. But as I just pointed out, there is no one way that covers everything.



Ok, then we are all on the same page. Although I dont think anyone here has EVER screamed about how kata is useless. Strawman.
 Maybe you can point to an example?



> You seem to be assuming that kata can't have pressure training as part of it and/or that randori is the _only_ way to reach this goal.


Strawman. No one ever said this, or ever even alluded to it.
Seriously, where do get this idea?


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> No, not the way I do strikes to the eyes. I put my thumbs in the eye sockets. You can't do that with these.



From my experience it really does not take much to effect the eyes. Recently I [SIZE=-1]accidentally [/SIZE] tapped my partners eye with a finger in training. He immedately hunched over and had to take a break. 
For a more practical solution you could practice precision striking with pads, and trying to get the strike on a moving opponent wearing safty glasses. For power I'd do grip strengthening exercises, hit the heavy bag, and do thumb/finger push-ups etc. 
Just another angle.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> Ok, then we are all on the same page. Although I dont think anyone here has EVER screamed about how kata is useless. Strawman.
> Maybe you can point to an example?
> 
> Strawman. No one ever said this, or ever even alluded to it.
> Seriously, where do get this idea?



Well, I think there are numerous examples of both. Maybe not in this thread, but they are all over the internet.

For example, for the second point you merely have to look at Rook's next- to- last post. Adding pressure training to kata is possible- if you are at the right level and have the right instructor skilled in doing so. But so few of us have that chance right now. As we grow, hopefully more people will get the chance.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> Well, I think there are numerous examples of both. Maybe not in this thread, but they are all over the internet.
> 
> For example, for the second point you merely have to look at Rook's next- to- last post. Adding pressure training to kata is possible- if you are at the right level and have the right instructor skilled in doing so. But so few of us have that chance right now. As we grow, hopefully more people will get the chance.


 
I think I will just reiterate my point that I think you have come up with a different defination of pressure testing than the one in common usage.  I believe Seattlecj is working for a compromise defination of sorts.  Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic) and no syllabus requirement that either party needs to stay within a certain set (ie there may be prohibitions but anything not explicitly prohibited is fair game, no matter where it came from or how it works).  It is full speed, full power, and freeform.  Let me know if I need to clarify what is meant.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> You should not have to rely on randori to teach you things like timing, etc.


 
I understand what you are saying here, and yes that I am aware that kata teaches you the timing of the technique. But I feel randori also teaches you a completely different sence of timing. It also helps you understand the flow from one attack/defence to another better.

I really suck at expalining myself at times. I hope this makes sense.



Don Roley said:


> However, you may not have seen this because your teacher either thinks you are not ready or he himself was never in a position to see it.


Possibly. I trust he is doing right by me as I see the difference and improvement in my training day by day. This is the second bujinkan school I am training at. The first one, which I stayed with for about 18 months left me very dissapointed with the quality of instruction. Not so where I am at now. I have never seen a person move so fluidly through an unscripted attack by a uke as my current sensei. To join him, I put him to the test, I tried to hit him by throwing everything at him, he just moved around me and returned fire as if I was a school boy. He left me (and some of my MMA friends) very impressed. 
Many of the Bujinkan instructors I have spoken to here in OZ have had many good things to say about my sensei. I believe I am in good hands.
~Cheers
Nick


----------



## Distance

Couple of years ago I was introduced to BujinKan and the very first thing I noticed is that my confident speed was actually nullified. Although I am not a student of the BujinKan I was impressed with the level of relaxation involved.  I never was "grabbed" so to speak but instead constant responses when I moved.  He just would let me go and I ended up twisted in what seemed a whirl wind.  I am currently going through the schools in the Austin, Texas area to find an instructor and training group I feel comfortable with.


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> I think I will just reiterate my point that I think you have come up with a different defination of pressure testing than the one in common usage.  I believe Seattlecj is working for a compromise defination of sorts.  Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic) and no syllabus requirement that either party needs to stay within a certain set (ie there may be prohibitions but anything not explicitly prohibited is fair game, no matter where it came from or how it works).  It is full speed, full power, and freeform.  Let me know if I need to clarify what is meant.



Interesting.

So intstead of "pressure testing" being just a means of putting pressure on a person while training, the definition you use covers people that train to defeat Ken Shamrock in the ring but not Peytonn Quinn's type of training to allow people to survive a knife attack, etc.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Rook said:


> Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic)...


 
No not really.
Pressure testing does not need to be competitive. It needs to be objective, and continuous with little time for the other party to plan. (its the lack of planing time that is where the pressure comes into it.)

Te set roles means little for the exercise. As one of my senseis said a long time ago, commiting one person to each role saves a lot of time in your sparring as you are no longer "hunting" eachother - that way you get a lot more bang for your buck in your three minute session. 

I could argue that this is going to be the real situation in a real fight. When you are in a real fight (not a competitive one in this instance) you will either be one of two people, an attacker or a defender...

Of course, training to compete is a completely different mind set as both parties share the same goal.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Bigshadow

Rubber Tanto said:


> No not really.
> Pressure testing does not need to be competitive. It needs to be objective, and continuous with little time for the other party to plan. (its the lack of planing time that is where the pressure comes into it.)



I really like that description.  Working from this, I would like to say, thus far, when I hear people talk about pressure testing, it seems to me that they perceive pressure testing as a means to prove or disprove what works and I guess that is why I really dislike the phrase.  Rather than disproving or proving what works, I believe putting the pressure on is more of a measure of what I have learned from budo and what I have not yet learned.

Hope that makes sense, it is still early!


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Bigshadow said:


> I really like that description. Working from this, I would like to say, thus far, when I hear people talk about pressure testing, it seems to me that they perceive pressure testing as a means to prove or disprove what works and I guess that is why I really dislike the phrase. Rather than disproving or proving what works, I believe putting the pressure on is more of a measure of what I have learned from budo and what I have not yet learned.
> 
> Hope that makes sense, it is still early!


 
yeah exactly.

To me the "what works drills" are simply resistance training. I try to part a lock on, and you try to stop me. Thats pretty much it. We had a guy come in once off the street, who claimed to have previous experience. My sensei was trying to show him a particular technique, the guy tried to resist it just to be difficult, so sensei fluidly changed it into a different technique. 

did that make sense? (It might early for you, but its getting damn late for me...and I just came back from a 6km run!)


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> To me the "what works drills" are simply resistance training. I try to part a lock on, and you try to stop me. Thats pretty much it. We had a guy come in once off the street, who claimed to have previous experience. My sensei was trying to show him a particular technique, the guy tried to resist it just to be difficult, so sensei fluidly changed it into a different technique.
> 
> did that make sense?



It made sense to me.

The problem is that so many times when I hear people talk about resisting a technique, the assumption seems to be that people will still apply the technique instead of flowing into another one. In other words, someone wants to do onikudaki, the other guy knows he is trying it a does his best to stop it fromhappening and despite that the _tori_ manages to get onikudaki on.

A lot of what we do seems to depend on the folks trying to prevent us from doing one thing, only to set themselves up for something else. The Kukishinden ryu seems to be pretty big on this based on my limited experience.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> It made sense to me.
> 
> The problem is that so many times when I hear people talk about resisting a technique, the assumption seems to be that people will still apply the technique instead of flowing into another one. In other words, someone wants to do onikudaki, the other guy knows he is trying it a does his best to stop it fromhappening and despite that the _tori_ manages to get onikudaki on...


 
yep. Even I was guilty of that in the first years I started...I would go to try something on a friend and they would resist and I would just sit there still trying to make the magic happen. Sadly there are some people that cannot move beyond that. One day a new student asked if I was do some randori with me after class. As he had been watching some of us play around before class and was interested to see what it was like.

I started off slow (as attacker). And I moved my arm out as a feint to test the waters and he reached out to grab my wrist, I pulled my arm back before he could make contact and instead of pulling his own arm back, he actually kept reaching forward, subconciously taking all his balance forward. Seeing the opportunity, I scooted in and threw him with a sacrifice throw. 

He said "oh man I lost my balance." I said "Nope. You have a think about it."

For many weeks he couldn't see what he had done wrong. Then one day he just "clicked" and said..."I chased the tech!"


----------



## Tenchijin2

This thing about not chasing the technique is very true, but the opposite problem occurs frequently, too. People have such little experience applying techniques in unscripted environments that they have to abandon everything they try because they can't figure out the right level of pressure to apply. A little more energy and they could do it.

I've seen many people who could have pulled off a technique they abandoned if only they'd known how to apply a bit more energy. Not a lot, mind you, but enough to get the job done.

The trick is knowing when the technique really is lost, and when it's just a matter of the other guy struggling uselessly to resist a technique that is sure to succeed with enough pressure.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So intstead of "pressure testing" being just a means of putting pressure on a person while training, the definition you use covers people that train to defeat Ken Shamrock in the ring but not Peytonn Quinn's type of training to allow people to survive a knife attack, etc.


 
Bingo.  The term "pressure testing," before it was appropriated by the "RB""SD" movement, refered to the idea that techniques, practices, strategies, people and arts had to be tested against the pressure of a trained, competent, resisting and competitive opponent at full speed, full power etc, to see whether they would stand up to the pressure that such an opponent would bring to bear.  It did not origionally refer, as some now believe it does, to any and all drills containing any degree of resistance or difficulty above that of solo kata.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> It made sense to me.
> 
> The problem is that so many times when I hear people talk about resisting a technique, the assumption seems to be that people will still apply the technique instead of flowing into another one. In other words, someone wants to do onikudaki, the other guy knows he is trying it a does his best to stop it fromhappening and despite that the _tori_ manages to get onikudaki on.
> 
> A lot of what we do seems to depend on the folks trying to prevent us from doing one thing, only to set themselves up for something else. The Kukishinden ryu seems to be pretty big on this based on my limited experience.


 
I don't think you understand what is ussually meant be resisting a technique.  Look at Judo for a second - one party is trying not to be thrown at all himself or herself while trying to throw his or her opponent.  The techniques that are consistantly able to be used in this situation are the ones that are meant by "use against a resisting opponent."  It doesn't necessarily mean that a person is going to go for one particular throw and that throw only only come hell, high water or the second coming.  The Judo throws that, though technically in the syllabus, have pretty much dissappeared from competition illustrate the usefulness of the method.  The same thing has happened in all the sport arts.


----------



## Bigshadow

Now we come full circle...  How much resistance can an unbalanced person provide?


----------



## Seattletcj

Tenchijin2 said:


> The trick is knowing when the technique really is lost, and when it's just a matter of the other guy struggling uselessly to resist a technique that is sure to succeed with enough pressure.



Something you said once that I liked....
Having good flow and adaptability does *not * mean being able to move from a crappy technique into another crappy technique, or
moving from a crappy kamae to another crappy kamae.

etc.


----------



## Distance

Although not a practioner of bujinkan I train about once a month with a group that are and I found the principle of letting go of a technique very inspiring.  In one instance, I was attempting a certain technique on another friend I train with and with little success.  He noticed and I ended up behind him.  He used brute strength to hoist me right off the ground and over his head.  Instead of being thrown forward I somehow dove between his legs and hooked my legs under his armpit.  That was the first time I was ever upside down but still had control. Just to let him know I was there, I kept his family jewels within my grip (nothing damaging).  His body stiffened and I was able to roll out of it.  If I hadn't moved from my initial technique and let "instinct" take over I am sure I would have been slammed to the ground.


----------



## shinbushi

Don Roley said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So intstead of "pressure testing" being just a means of putting pressure on a person while training, the definition you use covers people that train to defeat Ken Shamrock in the ring but not Peytonn Quinn's type of training to allow people to survive a knife attack, etc.


He is an alive approach to knife defenses




For the Record the reason Karl created STAB was that he was knifed 7 times in an assult and none of his previous training worked.


----------



## shinbushi

Bigshadow said:


> Now we come full circle...  How much resistance can an unbalanced person provide?


On these type of boards how many times do we have to say resistance does not mean muscling out of a waza. It means trying not to let your training partner do want he wants to that includes if he gets kuzushi on you regaining your balance or taking ukemi and doing a sutemi waza.


----------



## DWeidman

Bigshadow said:


> ...How much resistance can an unbalanced person provide?



A Lot.

-Daniel


----------



## DWeidman

Rook said:


> Pressure testing in the way that the term is normally used means that the activity is attempted in a competitive manner with no set roles (ie no uke-tori dynamic) and no syllabus requirement that either party needs to stay within a certain set (ie there may be prohibitions but anything not explicitly prohibited is fair game, no matter where it came from or how it works).  It is full speed, full power, and freeform.  Let me know if I need to clarify what is meant.



Bull ****.

I have never heard it used this way -- you are standing on one end of a VERY wide spectrum here...  Any good gym doesn't advocate "pressure testing" under your rules.  

-DW


----------



## Bigshadow

shinbushi said:


> On these type of boards how many times do we have to say resistance does not mean muscling out of a waza. It means trying not to let your training partner do want he wants to that includes if he gets kuzushi on you regaining your balance or taking ukemi and doing a sutemi waza.



OK.  To me that is far different and makes more sense than what I think when I see or hear resistance.  I understand that.    I guess you could say that was a given.  But I couldn't begin to count how many times on these boards I have seen them talk about muscling out of something.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

shinbushi said:


> On these type of boards how many times do we have to say resistance does not mean muscling out of a waza.


 
Absolutely correct. But the thing about sparring is that it's initially way harder to notice when you're using too much strength.


----------



## saru1968

DWeidman said:


> A Lot.
> 
> -Daniel


 


I disagree, if done correctly they have no idea where they are, but your opinion and mileage might vary dann..%-}


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> But the thing about sparring is that it's initially way harder to notice when you're using too much strength.



Until you

1) become fatigued to the point that muscling through things is not possible

2) try to muscle out of something and get beaten over and over and over and over

Usually it only takes a few trys to figure this out.


----------



## Tenchijin2

No matter what, you're going to use more strength than the minimum when you're under stress. That's human nature.

If sparring/resistance training/pressure testing/alive training is PART of a balanced training program it will *reflect* your ability to stay relaxed while reinforcing attributes such as timing, rhythm, and so on.


This type  of training can be misused like ANY type of training to reinforce bad habits.

Balance, people, balance!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> 1) become fatigued to the point that muscling through things is not possible


 
Agreed, but then people tend to forget about it when they've recovered. I'm saying this out of experience.



Seattletcj said:


> 2) try to muscle out of something and get beaten over and over and over and over


 
The usual scenario is that if you're strong enough, you get away with it until the training conditions change. By that time a lot of bad habits may have been picked up.

Quote of the day:
"- And when we get to here it'll only be a matter of my strength versus his strength. In which case I'm going to win anyway, but that's beside the point here."


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> The usual scenario is that if you're strong enough, you get away with it until the training conditions change. By that time a lot of bad habits may have been picked up.



 If you are very strong, but are totally outskilled, you will usually lose. If you are really strong and have superior skill, you will probably do very well. 
duh !

Whats with the fear of potentially picking up hypothetical bad habits? And if a "bad habit" is picked up people do learn and change, all the time.

Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength? 
If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy .  :cheers:


----------



## budoboy

"Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength? 
If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy . :cheers:"

I think this is a very good point.  There is so much talk of not using strength that you would think that strength never won a fight.  Since we always talk of not using strength some people may misconstrue this to mean that the don't have to have any physical conditioning at all to be effective.

Strength has its uses.  In training we would like to rely on good use of technology and principles but in real life strength often comes into play.   Spagetti arms aren't very effective in grappling in my opinion.

Jeff


----------



## Varg05R6

I think the gist of the idea is not that strength is bad, simply not to depend on your strength.  

Don't fear strength...seek it!  Just don't rely on it to win all your battles.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> Agreed, but then people tend to forget about it when they've recovered. I'm saying this out of experience.


 
Out of curiosity, and to benifit the discussion. What exactly is your experience here?
Are we talking BJK practitioners only here? And if so, lower rank, equal rank or higher rank, and how much experience did _they_ have?

What about practitioners outside the BJK?



Nimravus said:


> The usual scenario is that if you're strong enough, you get away with it until the training conditions change. By that time a lot of bad habits may have been picked up.


 
You've said this a few times. It's an interesting discussion point.
What are the bad habits you feel people pick up through randori?
Could you list them?

~Nick


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> If you are very strong, but are totally outskilled, you will usually lose. If you are really strong and have superior skill, you will probably do very well.
> duh !
> 
> Whats with the fear of potentially picking up hypothetical bad habits? And if a "bad habit" is picked up people do learn and change, all the time.
> 
> Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength?
> If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
> Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy .  :cheers:



I would point you in the direction of this well written piece for a much better response to your question than I could give.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> Whats with the fear of potentially picking up hypothetical bad habits?


 
I'm not going to discuss that with you. You've made it very clear you don't care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as taught by the Japanese.



Seattletcj said:


> Isnt it a worse habit to underdevelop your strength?
> If I can use strength to my advantage, I will.
> Personally, I believe the fear of strength creates a culture of physical weakness, and I dont think thats very healthy . :cheers:


Not going to discuss this either. 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=502843&postcount=58


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Out of curiosity, and to benifit the discussion. What exactly is your experience here?
> Are we talking BJK practitioners only here? And if so, lower rank, equal rank or higher rank,


 
All of the above. 
My experience is just that - that with the premature addition of stress people tend to forget that they're eventually going to get fatigued and tense up too much. Happens to me too.



Rubber Tanto said:


> What about practitioners outside the BJK?


 
Mostly (but not only) FMA/IMA people, if you don't count first-time visitors to Bujinkan dojos who've practiced other styles.



Rubber Tanto said:


> You've said this a few times. It's an interesting discussion point.
> What are the bad habits you feel people pick up through randori?
> Could you list them?


 
Biases, give-and-take-mentalities, over-reliance on their upper bodies, tendency to forget about weapons and additional opponents, poor usage of kamae, bent backs etc...


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> I'm not going to discuss that with you.



I guess we have done this before. The debate on strength, conditioning, and budo taijutsu can be found here.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=502843#post502843


----------



## Rook

A few questions:

1.  Are you guys aware that good grappling instructors will ussually pair people trying to use muscle with someone substantially larger so that they are forced to use technique?  
2.  How do you train to counter someone using their strength aggressively if your training partners are banned from doing so?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Varg05R6 said:


> I think the gist of the idea is not that strength is bad, simply not to depend on your strength.
> 
> Don't fear strength...seek it! Just don't rely on it to win all your battles.


 
Nice post!  Strength, Conditioning, Flexibility are all important.  Yet one should not rely on them or you may find that at some point you will be in a situation where you are ill, fatigued, old, etc and you will not have the strength, conditioning, etc to survive.

I try to make sure that I am always in good shape both physically and mentally.  Yet my goal in training is to be smooth, flowing and relaxed. (not muscleing through the technique)  This mentality has served me well in both my personal and professional life.


----------



## exile

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nice post!  Strength, Conditioning, Flexibility are all important.  Yet one should not rely on them or you may find that at some point you will be in a situation where you are ill, fatigued, old, etc and you will not have the strength, conditioning, etc to survive.



Or looking at the same idea in terms of positives, rather than avoiding a negative: all other things being equal, a strike delivered with greater strength has a correspondingly greater chance of ending the fight right there. A blow to a weak point delivered with a certain degree of strength may disrupt but not incapacitate the assailant; if the same strike is delivered with sufficient strength, it will make it impossible for the attacker to carry on. As long as people don't regard strength as a cure-all or compensation for technical inadequacies,  and as long as they train other components as necesary (e.g., balance; if you're off balance you very likely can't deliver an effective attack or defense even if you're really strong), more strength is definitely an advantage. 

The idea is that strength is good, but _relying_ on strength alone, or primarily (and training as though strength compensates for poor technique)that's bad...


----------



## Seattletcj

Good points Brian. Balance.

Although I dont remember anyone ever advocating muscling through technique. Its a straw man that seems to always slip itself cleverly into these converations (I'm not saying you slipped it in there  ).


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> I'm not going to discuss that with you (picking up bad habits from sparring). You've made it very clear you don't care about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as taught by the Japanese.



Logical fallacies for future reference

1)Ad hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

2) poisoning the well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

3) appeal to emotion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

4) appeal to tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

5) strawman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 1.  Are you guys aware that good grappling instructors



Are you aware that this section is about discussions about an art as it is practiced in Japan, that the Bujinkan has different ways of doing things than grappling instructors for reasons of our own and that if we want to discuss grappling as you do it we can go to an entire section here at MartialTalk instead of bringing it up here?




Rook said:


> will ussually pair people trying to use muscle with someone substantially larger so that they are forced to use technique?
> 2.  How do you train to counter someone using their strength aggressively if your training partners are banned from doing so?



Who has said the the training partner is banned from using his strength? Everyone so far is trying to talk about how to prevent us from relying on power. The Uke is trying to simulate an attack and when I uke for a hold or something I use all my strength to make sure it is a realistic attack. Others do the same for me.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> Although I dont remember anyone ever advocating muscling through technique. Its a straw man that seems to always slip itself cleverly into these converations (I'm not saying you slipped it in there  ).



Well, as has been pointed out again and again, a lot of people *say* they are going to build up strenght but not rely on it. But everyone I know who has built up strength seems to rely on it without conciously being aware of it. I know two very skilled Japanese who have said they used to do weight lifting, etc but decided it was a mistake and slowed their learning. They were not conscious of the matter, but looking back on it they can see the problems they had because of their unconcious actions.


----------



## Rook

Don Roley said:


> Are you aware that this section is about discussions about an art as it is practiced in Japan, that the Bujinkan has different ways of doing things than grappling instructors for reasons of our own and that if we want to discuss grappling as you do it we can go to an entire section here at MartialTalk instead of bringing it up here?


 
I did not raise the issue to discuss how sports grappling works  but to point out that the objection that people could develop "bad habits of relying on strength" can be and IS frequently and easily corrected.   Hatsumi surly must be aware of these practices, as they are used extensively in other JJJ arts, as well as in modern sports grappling.  



> Who has said the the training partner is banned from using his strength? Everyone so far is trying to talk about how to prevent us from relying on power. The Uke is trying to simulate an attack and when I uke for a hold or something I use all my strength to make sure it is a realistic attack. Others do the same for me.


 
So the attacker is permitted to use as much strength as is available to him in his attack?


----------



## Don Roley

Rook said:


> I did not raise the issue to discuss how sports grappling works  but to point out that the objection that people could develop "bad habits of relying on strength" can be and IS frequently and easily corrected.   Hatsumi surly must be aware of these practices, as they are used extensively in other JJJ arts, as well as in modern sports grappling.



And if he does not lead us in doing pushups, etc _*despite*_ being aware of them, don't you think there may be a reason?

This would be the place to discuss those reasons if we knew them. Other arts have their own ways, as well as their own sections to talk about them.




Rook said:


> So the attacker is permitted to use as much strength as is available to him in his attack?



As in all things, it depends. At the beggining I might not use all the strength with a newbie until they start to get the movements down. Then I crank it on little by little. With advanced practicioners, I start off by doing my damndest to hold on as strongly as possible.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Thanks for the reply, Nim

On bad habits in randori you have noted:



Nimravus said:


> All of the above.
> 1) Biases,
> 2) give-and-take-mentalities,
> 3) over-reliance on their upper bodies,
> 4)tendency to forget about weapons and additional opponents,
> 5) poor usage of kamae,
> 6) bent backs etc...


 
Good points...
but I would say most people build habits 3, 4, 5 & 6 when first learning kata too. habit 1 is only created when the student only trains randori and not technique (kata) and as we are saying, does not have a healthy balance.

I'm not sure what you mean by habit 2.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> Logical fallacies for future reference
> 
> 1)Ad hominem
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
> 
> 2) poisoning the well
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
> 
> 3) appeal to emotion
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
> 
> 4) appeal to tradition
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
> 
> 5) strawman
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


 
You don't care about properly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. As such bad habits are nothing you feel the need to concern yourself with.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

LOL...someone neg repped me because asking Nimravus to elaborate on a post was considered thread hijacking...funny, yet sad...
 

On the strength issue. At a bullshido throwdown, I found I could muscle through some of the techniquess used against me when partnered up against a bjj practitioner of about a year. But then a few moments later when partnered up against a bjj practioner of 20+ years, my strength did nothing against some of the same techniques.

So yes, its my little bit of proof that you can't always rely on strength to get you over the line.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> but I would say most people build habits 3, 4, 5 & 6 when first learning kata too.


 
Everybody falls victim to number three initially. But it's easier to notice and reflect on if you're not going too fast, which can also be said about number four. Number five and six only occurs in badly done kata training.



Rubber Tanto said:


> habit 1 is only created when the student only trains randori and not technique (kata)


 
Wrong. Let's say you spend the three free training sessions teaching a beginner torite kihon goho (kihon happo four to eight for those who want to know), taught as both releases to grabs and as responses to punches. If that guy gets to try randori at the time of his fourth session and realizes just how hard it is to "catch" other people's arms and "put on" techniques, there is a much higher chance of him becoming disillusioned and a) quitting, b) becoming one of those people who counter out of sync with his partner, i.e. moves at 110 percent speed while his partner moves at 70 percent, or c) letting his bias get in the way of his understanding, in that he's not interested in learning all the myriads of details that you need to understand in order for your skills to be put to work. I've seen this happen frequently, scenario b being the most usual.

Like I said before, I believe children have the right to be children for as long as they can, which is why the way people are brought out of their "invincibility" phase is so delicate.



Rubber Tanto said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by habit 2.


 
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.htmlhttp://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifedueling.htm#kali


----------



## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> Well, as has been pointed out again and again, a lot of people *say* they are going to build up strenght but not rely on it. _*But everyone I know who has built up strength* _seems to rely on it without conciously being aware of it.



Everyone you know who has built up strength. ok.
I'd say this is really a Faulty generalization (or hasty generalization, or biased sample etc.)*. *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

Seriously, all of these strawmen are not based on anything anyone has said in this conversation (by definition). And the justification for creating the strawmen is pure anecdotal evidence. 

IMO this explains why many of these conversations never get anywhere .


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus said:


> You don't care about properly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. As such bad habits are nothing you feel the need to concern yourself with.



Am I in the twilight zone?  :erg: Your statement sounds like the Jedi mind control technique.

 I think you are joking, but am not really sure.
LOL, did I say this somewhere?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Found this:



Seattletcj said:


> I do not want to do what the seniors in Japan do. What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .
> They are very good at what they do. That is why I said , it is important to define exactly what they do. If your goal is to look like them, then yes mimic everything they do.


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> Everyone you know who has built up strength. ok.
> I'd say this is really a Faulty generalization (or hasty generalization, or biased sample etc.)*. *
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization
> 
> Seriously, all of these strawmen are not based on anything anyone has said in this conversation (by definition). And the justification for creating the strawmen is pure anecdotal evidence.
> 
> IMO this explains why many of these conversations never get anywhere .



Well, I think that when we are talking about what we want to reach as our taijutsu goals, we are talking about a very few people that live in Jaapn and have funny names. And I mainly talk about them when discussing things.

And as for the idea of a hasty generalization, I can only speak about my experience over the last couple of decades in the art in two continents and a few countries. So far, I see nothing to disuade me from maintaining my position. Some of the folks that have tried certain things, and have been in this art longer than we have been alive, do not do them and advise against them. I tend to be rather conservative in my opinions about my abilities and do not think that if they were not able to do something that me and my superior  abilities (snicker, snort:lfao: ) can do any better.


----------



## Seattletcj

Read it very carefully.



> Originally Posted by *Seattletcj*
> 
> 
> _ I do not want to do what the seniors in Japan do. *What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .*
> They are very good at what they do. That is why I said , it is important to define exactly what they do. If your goal is to look like them, then yes mimic everything they do._


----------



## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by habit 2.



Aside from the link Nimravous gave, I would ask you to look at your experiences. IIRC, you were a doorman at a club. Were you there to fight with the other guy? Or were you there to try to keep the peace? Did you square off with the other guy and _then_ start a series of exchanging blows? Or was it more often the other guy trying to get in a shot when he thought he could catch you off guard and threw everything into one sucker punch?

And have you looked at the way Hatsumi does things? He does not do things give and take. Well... maybe you can say that if you define it as the other guys gives him an attack and he takes everything away from the attacker. There is no second shot with Hatsumi unless he has purposefully left an opening. It is rather like going up against a pool shark. As soon as it is his turn, you never get another one of your own. But to do that, you need to lure and arrange yourself so that the other guy commits to a full on attack- which describes someone trying to sucker punch you but not what you see often in the ring.

Am I making sense here?


----------



## Don Roley

Seattletcj said:


> Read it very carefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What they do is teach advanced concepts. That is not my goal .
Click to expand...


I think that the original quote was in relation to a discussion about advice that the Japanese shihan were giving that was being rejected. The Japanese shihan do not always do advanced concepts. Hatsumi IMO does because there are things only he can teach. But the Japanese shihan are sometimes willing to let you know what you should be doing at an early stage in your training.

But of course, some people reject what they say. Some folks do only what Hatsumi is doing now- ignoring the process that got him to that level and others do what they want and ignore the fact that the Japanese shihan do not do it, and in some cases actively discourage others from following the mistakes they have done in the past.

I do not know how many times I have said it, but I believe that we need to look at what the Japanese have done and what they reccomend we do if we want to end up where they are. That does not mean do as they perform now, but it does mean asking them what they think we should do and at least asking them why they do not do certain things during training with us.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> Read it very carefully.


 
Yup. Instructor quote of the day: "You don't need advanced concepts if you want to learn how to fight, those you need to learn if you want to learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu."


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> Everybody falls victim to number three initially. But it's easier to notice and reflect on if you're not going too fast, which can also be said about number four. Number five and six only occurs in badly done kata training.


 
People don't do kata badly when they first start?
lol




Nimravus said:


> Wrong. Let's say you spend the three free training sessions teaching a beginner torite kihon goho (kihon happo four to eight for those who want to know), taught as both releases to grabs and as responses to punches. If that guy gets to try randori at the time of his fourth session and realizes just how hard it is to "catch" other people's arms and "put on" techniques, there is a much higher chance of him becoming disillusioned and a) quitting, b) becoming one of those people who counter out of sync with his partner, i.e. moves at 110 percent speed while his partner moves at 70 percent, or c) letting his bias get in the way of his understanding, in that he's not interested in learning all the myriads of details that you need to understand in order for your skills to be put to work. I've seen this happen frequently, scenario b being the most usual.


 
But I don't know anyone that would throw a kid into randori after three sessions. Maybe after 30 sessions. Maybe. Never three. 

So when do you think people are ready to try some randori?



Nimravus said:


> Like I said before, I believe children have the right to be children for as long as they can, which is why the way people are brought out of their "invincibility" phase is so delicate.


 
Hmm...it's better in my opinion to not allow an "invincibility" phase to build in the first place. As my dad says, you cant fall far when both feet are planted on the ground.

You have 8 years in the BJK, if I recall. My sensei has 18 years...I've never heard talk down to students. I'm not comfortable with this "children" line you keep using. It seems to be part of that ever growing mentality of one person of higher rank looking down at those of lower rank, thinking that the colour of their belt dictates the level of constructive input and insight on offer.




Nimravus said:


> http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html



Oh okay...okay so when you say "give and take mentallity" you are talking about the difference between picking a fight and defending yourself. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up because I didn't understand what you meant by give and take...I thought you meant "not sharing info" when sparring.

Thanks 
~Nick


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I have trained for quite a while in the Bujinkan and while I am not a Budo Taijutsu only type of practitioner I can certainly see the benefits of training *exactly* the way Soke is teaching in Japan.  I have met some Budo Taijutsu adepts that simply are down right scary.  Most of these gentleman either lived in Japan or have taken multiple trips.  They all seem to have worked very hard to eliminated the weaker points in their movement.  Thus making their defense very, very good.  In regards to realistic training we have to understand that any training is just a simulation of a real life encounter.  Whether kata training, training a certain waza or sparring, rolling, etc.  The important point that we probably can all agree on is that it is important to train and to continue to train and not fall off the wheel.  

What about your *personal* training in Budo Taijutsu do you find *realistic and beneficial* to your own personal protection skills?  The art itself is great so what are you doing to bring out *your skills*?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> People don't do kata badly when they first start?
> lol


 
Tell a newbie not to bend his back or bend his knees over his toes, and I guarantee you that for what it's worth, he's going to remember your admonitions better in kata training than in randori.



Rubber Tanto said:


> But I don't know anyone that would throw a kid into randori after three sessions. Maybe after 30 sessions. Maybe. Never three.


 
I do. But I'll admit that the time limit is a bit beside the point, depending on the person. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> So when do you think people are ready to try some randori?


 
Depends. Sorry, poor answer, I know. But it's a good sign when they can bend their knees, move their feet and their arms aren't shaking too much anymore.



Rubber Tanto said:


> Hmm...it's better in my opinion to not allow an "invincibility" phase to build in the first place.


 
In a perfect world, yes, but then you'd also have to train techniques full speed right from the beginning.



Rubber Tanto said:


> You have 8 years in the BJK, if I recall. My sensei has 18 years...I've never heard talk down to students.


 
I believe I wrote that last year, so that makes it nine. 
How many people have you had as a teacher on a regular basis?



Rubber Tanto said:


> I'm not comfortable with this "children" line you keep using. It seems to be part of that ever growing mentality of one person of higher rank looking down at those of lower rank, thinking that the colour of their belt dictates the level of constructive input and insight on offer.


 
I look down upon lots of people of lower, higher and equal rank. It's got more to do with their personalities and their capabilities (or rather lack thereof) than their rank.



Rubber Tanto said:


> Oh okay...okay so when you say "give and take mentallity" you are talking about the difference between picking a fight and defending yourself. Gotcha.


 
Not only that. It also concerns the strategy you use within an altercation.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

In the recent Bujin-Kan online newsletter Ed Martin has a good article about Hard and Soft and how it pertains to realistic training.
http://www.bujinmag.com/index2.htm
This is a good online newsletter that I feel helps to give you some better understandings of Budo Taijutsu.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> I believe I wrote that last year, so that makes it nine.
> How many people have you had as a teacher on a regular basis?


 
wow...never really thought about that. Let's see, in 25 years, about 6 teachers. Then maybe a dozen people of impressive experience that I have met along the way who have spent some time with me to help me fine tune certain things or have just taught me some really valuable lessons.




Nimravus said:


> I look down upon lots of people of lower, higher and equal rank. It's got more to do with their personalities and their capabilities (or rather lack thereof) than their rank.


 
Okay...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> wow...never really thought about that. Let's see, in 25 years, about 6 teachers.


 
I meant in the Bujinkan.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> I meant in the Bujinkan.


 
Aah. Thanks for clearing that up.
2


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Twelve altogether for me personally. I won't deny that I'm extremely spoiled, I've always had at least two different instructors at any given time. Currently I have four, with one acting as a stand-in.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> Twelve altogether for me personally. I won't deny that I'm extremely spoiled, I've always had at least two different instructors at any given time. Currently I have four, with one acting as a stand-in.


 
wow! Cool!
And you are telling me this because....?


----------



## Bujingodai

This is a pretty friggin stupid discussion. A good pissing match for sure.
Funny how people make fun of so many yet look silly themselves.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> wow! Cool!
> And you are telling me this because....?


 
The fact that I'm spoiled might be one of the reasons you've found me coming across as condescending.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Bujingodai said:


> This is a pretty friggin stupid discussion. A good pissing match for sure.
> Funny how people make fun of so many yet look silly themselves.


 
Man I'm lost...I don't even know where this line of questioning is leading...


----------



## Bujingodai

Spoiled?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Man I'm lost...I don't even know where this line of questioning is leading...


 
All right. How about this - you might want to try out a number of other instructors, just for the sake of experience.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> All right. How about this - you might want to try out a number of other instructors, just for the sake of experience.


 
No thanks.
The last bujinkan instructor I trained under was not effective (IMO). My training with this instructor has been PROVEN* to be effective. If had enough martial arts training "for the sake of experience" to last me a life time. What I do now is for fitness and enjoyment and I respect my sensei enough that I now consider him a very good friend.

But I appreciate the suggestion



_(*As tested against practitioners of other styles and BJK students of other schools)_


----------



## Bujingodai

Hey I got a bad karma for the comment I made about making fun of others. I wasn't fun of others, I was stating a fact this is a sad pissing match.


----------



## Bujingodai

Nimravus when you state 12 in 9 years of study. Does this mean there are that many Sensei in the one dojo, you have moved that much or you have left that many dojo. That may not be considered spoiled. I am just trying to wrap my head around it. I've been at it for about 14. I have had 2 Sensei in the Bujinkan and 1 indie. Yes I went that way for a while.
However I have had many influences in the Bujinkan and extended seminar time with some Shihan. I took Ed Martin out for breakie once and we sat up late chatting do I consider him a teacher?

So I was wondering here is definition.


----------



## DWeidman

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have trained for quite a while in the Bujinkan and while I am not a Budo Taijutsu only type of practitioner I can certainly see the benefits of training *exactly* the way Soke is teaching in Japan.



Do you really mean that?  I find that the way Soke teaches to be a HORRIBLE way to learn the art.

-DW


----------



## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> Are you aware that this section is about discussions about an art as it is practiced in Japan



No.  No - it's not.

This section is about discussion of a Japanese Art that is practiced ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

If you want a forum for just you guys in Japan -- get another one.

-DW


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

DWeidman said:


> Do you really mean that? I find that the way Soke teaches to be a HORRIBLE way to learn the art.
> 
> -DW


 
Yet Daniel, I have met more than a few Budo Taijutsu practitioners specifically taught by Hatsumi Soke (*with his methods*) who have simply awesome skills.

So yes I meant exactly what I said.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bujingodai said:


> Nimravus when you state 12 in 9 years of study. Does this mean there are that many Sensei in the one dojo, you have moved that much or you have left that many dojo.


 
The only dojo I've left was my first, and that was because it closed down. There were two instructors there I trained with at the time, only one of them is still training (though not at my dojo). My second, current main dojo initially had three instructors who held the training at different days of the week. Whilst training there I've also guest-trained at two other dojos, in one of them throughout the summer and autumn of 2003 and the summer of 2005, as well as attending seminars over the course of those two years. I like the people in that dojo and consider their head instructor to be a large influence on my understanding of taijutsu (and several other things related to my job and similar stuff). 

Then there's that other dojo which I visited several times during the late autumn of 2003, throughout the summer of 2004, autumn of 2005 and the early part of 2006. Two of the instructors there I've also trained with enough for me to consider them influential. 

In the autumn of 2003 our dojo was taken over by several yudansha because our previous Shidoshi chose to lay off taijutsu in favour of other endeavors, six people all in all (not counting one who left the country). Four of these, including one Judan, have held regular training sessions at our place since then. Currently, we have three different instructors teaching on tuesdays and two on thursdays (if you count the beginners's instructor) and another on sundays, with one acting as a backup in case someone gets sick.

Does that answer your question?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> No thanks.
> The last bujinkan instructor I trained under was not effective (IMO). My training with this instructor has been PROVEN* to be effective. If had enough martial arts training "for the sake of experience" to last me a life time. What I do now is for fitness and enjoyment and I respect my sensei enough that I now consider him a very good friend.
> 
> But I appreciate the suggestion


 
And you don't consider this to be at least a little biased? 

You'd be amazed at the stuff you may pick up "away from home"...


----------



## Bujingodai

Yeah I guess that answers the question. Just wanted to clarify that one.


----------



## DWeidman

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yet Daniel, I have met more than a few Budo Taijutsu practitioners specifically taught by Hatsumi Soke (*with his methods*) who have simply awesome skills.
> 
> So yes I meant exactly what I said.



Ok.  Was just curious.

I still stand by my observation as well.

;-)

-DW


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> And you don't consider this to be at least a little biased?


 
Biased against what?



Nimravus said:


> You'd be amazed at the stuff you may pick up "away from home"...


 
I'm amazed at the stuff I'm picking up "at home" and am yet to feel a need to seek another taijutsu instructor to fill any gaps. If I felt the training to be lacking, I'd move, sure. (I have already done this once) But that is yet to be the case with my current dojo.

"Away from home" I get amazed by learning things I don't learn in taijutsu - like triangles, flying armbars (trying anyway), omoplatas, sprawling, jamming, shoots, breaking guard etc... things that I don't see every day at normal training that helps me see my taijutsu from different angles.

Cheers


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

DWeidman said:


> Ok. Was just curious.
> 
> I still stand by my observation as well.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> -DW


 
Dan you probably just need to get hooked up with some people that I know.  You seem very level headed and I am confident that when you meet the right people your perception may shift slightly.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Biased against what?


 
Well, you don't know what's out there until you've looked, right?



Rubber Tanto said:


> "Away from home" I get amazed by learning things I don't learn in taijutsu - like triangles, flying armbars (trying anyway), omoplatas, sprawling, jamming, shoots, breaking guard etc... things that I don't see every day at normal training that helps me see my taijutsu from different angles.


 
*cough cough*

Like I said, you don't know what's out there (yes, *WITHIN THE BUJINKAN*) until you've looked.



Rubber Tanto said:


> If I felt the training to be lacking, I'd move, sure. (I have already done this once) But that is yet to be the case with my current dojo.


 
I didn't realize my training was lacking in certain aspects until I looked to others.


----------



## Seattletcj

Nimravus,

What exactly are you trying to get out?
That rubber tanto has the opinions he has, only because he has not directly experienced the totality of the BJK ?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Seattletcj said:


> Nimravus,
> 
> What exactly are you trying to get out?
> That rubber tanto has the opinions he has, only because he has not directly experienced the totality of the BJK ?


 
That is a possibility.


----------



## DWeidman

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Dan you probably just need to get hooked up with some people that I know.  You seem very level headed and I am confident that when you meet the right people your perception may shift slightly.



PM me with the people... I will see if I know them already.

-DW


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> That is a possibility.


 

LOL...that sounds like a comment made by someone who has stepped very little outside the realms of his own style.

But I ask you this. Why do you suggest that?
So far I have not seen you post one argument that makes any sense. People have come on here talking about ways to train realistically.

You seem to have a problem with that. Fair enough. But this is a thread about realistic training and thats what I am talking about here. MY dojo trys to train realistically. We have pressure testing. We have randori. We are not afraid to roll with people outside of our system to put our training to the test. I have and I have found that my training is not lacking.

So to counter all this you a) call fellow practitioners "children" by what you "ASSUME" to know of them, their training and their abilities. b) You suggest that I should try other BJK instructors (but if you say that randori and pressure testing is not the norm...and it is what I enjoy...so then why would I do that?

Is that the best debate you can put forward?

Okay then. Working with that...My opinion that randori and pressure testing is beneficial will change when I go to another sensei who just trains kata because....

Innuendo and implied knowledge is worthless. Give me some facts.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Seattletcj said:


> Nimravus,
> 
> What exactly are you trying to get out?
> That rubber tanto has the opinions he has, only because he has not directly experienced the totality of the BJK ?


 

So in Nimravus's professional opinion as a member of the BJK...is he saying that one BJK sensei is not sufficiently adequate to instruct one martial artist in the ability to defend himself? But in fact one needs 12 BJK godans to show you something before you can know if what you are learning is at a level of quality that can be taken seriously?



I'm not trying to hijack the thread...I'm just following the path Nim's been taking this thread on.


----------



## Bujingodai

I think there is some short thoughts here
The idea that an opinion outside of the Bujinkan is wrong due to not feeling the totality of the Kan is silly. Not everything works for everyone. I for one have seen some things in the Kan that totally disgust me from some of the most senior people.
Everyones needs are different, there may be less people with real talent where he is to learn from. He may just think the Kan sucks, thats his opinion.
Does it look like he has moved on and has adjusted his thought due to the opposite value of what seems to be MMA, yes.
Do I think that most people don't unravel the value of Ninjutsu til they have been at it a very very long time yes, do I think that you have experienced totality at a decade not too many.
I think there are way too many people that think very much of their ability way too soon. That is a very obvious point if you travel enough and see the quality of the product that is out there.

I do for one believe you need to see what you need to see. If that means going out for your views so be it.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Bujingodai said:


> I think there is some short thoughts here
> The idea that an opinion outside of the Bujinkan is wrong due to not feeling the totality of the Kan is silly. Not everything works for everyone. I for one have seen some things in the Kan that totally disgust me from some of the most senior people.
> Everyones needs are different, there may be less people with real talent where he is to learn from. He may just think the Kan sucks, thats his opinion.
> Does it look like he has moved on and has adjusted his thought due to the opposite value of what seems to be MMA, yes.
> Do I think that most people don't unravel the value of Ninjutsu til they have been at it a very very long time yes, do I think that you have experienced totality at a decade not too many.
> I think there are way too many people that think very much of their ability way too soon. That is a very obvious point if you travel enough and see the quality of the product that is out there.
> 
> I do for one believe you need to see what you need to see. If that means going out for your views so be it.


 
Thanks for that Post, Dave,
The only place I'll correct you is that I have never said the Kans suck. I asctually like my BJK training. All I say is that, in my opinion, I find randori and pressure testing and resistance work helps, and is what I consider realistic training. Period.

People seem to get defensive when I, or others, say this and then accuse me of hating the BJK.

But this is not the case.
~Nick


----------



## Bujingodai

No means to offense, anyone for that matter. I was being a bit general in my assumption. Much like everyone else does when you experience other things.
I stepped outside the boundries and had some of the best training with some of the best people I could meet.
When some questioned that I offered to pay for a seminar and put them up to witness it, unfortunatly it didn't pan out. BTW invite still open.
I will still train with some of those that the legit schools don't like. Thats my choice. I value both of those paths


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> LOL...that sounds like a comment made by someone who has stepped very little outside the realms of his own style.


 
You're free to believe that.



Rubber Tanto said:


> But I ask you this. Why do you suggest that?


 
The PC term is that you need to train with different people to find out if there are others who can offer you more than you're currently getting. The less PC term is that you need to do that in order to learn who sucks and who doesn't.



Rubber Tanto said:


> People have come on here talking about ways to train realistically.
> 
> You seem to have a problem with that.


 
Yes, and here's why.
At the very best, all training is a simulation of an isolated part of reality. It can *NEVER* be compared to the whole of reality itself. For me personally, realism does not compare well with two similarly trained, prepared and/or equipped persons who are determined to find out which one of them is the better fighter given the circumstances they operate under. However well I fare in a sparring match there's no guarantee that that's going to save me from the crackhead I arrested a few weeks ago, who's now come back for me with an axe and tries to ambush me on my lunch break (I'm not making this up, this is something that happened to one of my bosses a few weeks ago). But no matter what techniques you're drilling, you've always limited the scope of their application by heavily modifying the environment in which they're meant to be applied. Or as someone once put it, "there are always more 'if's' than you've planned for". 

I never needed to practice randori to find out that the results of your techniques aren't the same when people are uncooperative. I learned that through regular training and interaction with the people participating therein. Nor do I need Matt Thornton, Burton Richardson, Jim Wagner or even Sean Askew to tell me that "there's a lot of brothers out there flakin' and perpetratin' but scared to kick reality". I learned that through observing the people around me.

I've never said that I don't like to spar, in fact I love it. But I don't make myself the illusion that this or that method is by definition more realistic than the other. And I strive to NEVER try to judge an opponent based on what I myself am capable of and/or prepared to do. I'm not by a long shot what anyone would call "good" at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, in the international sense of the word. I have however experienced firsthand that the training I participate in, for all its limitations, really does produce interesting methods of response. I've accepted the limitations inherent in my own training, but I try not to go around advocating their supposed realism as opposed to everything else.


Rubber Tanto said:


> So to counter all this you a) call fellow practitioners "children"


 
That term, when I initially used it (although admittedly not the best one to use) referred to beginners, i.e. 9th kyu-ish with only a few weeks or months worth of training. 



Rubber Tanto said:


> by what you "ASSUME" to know of them,
> their training and their abilities.


 
I think there's been some misunderstanding here.



Rubber Tanto said:


> b) You suggest that I should try other BJK instructors (but if you say that randori and pressure testing is not the norm...and it is what I enjoy...so then why would I do that?


 
I did make the (perhaps faulty) assumption that you were interested in learning as much about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as possible. Personally, I don't see much of a reason to stay within the Bujinkan if sparring is your main point of interest, except in cases like yours in which you've already found a dojo you're obviously more than satisfied with. But as for me, if I wanted more sparring as opposed to better understanding of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, I would look to another style.



Rubber Tanto said:


> My opinion that randori and pressure testing is beneficial will change when I go to another sensei who just trains kata because....


 
I'm not saying it will change, I'm saying it might open up doors to new levels of understanding in regards to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bujingodai said:


> I for one have seen some things in the Kan that totally disgust me from some of the most senior people.


 
Tell me about it...how about being picked apart in front of the whole group by a 15th dan during his Hombu dojo session when you've had two hours of sleep in two days and you're training with a seven foot tall psycho who isn't being cooperative at all?
Funny enough, I'm still training.



Bujingodai said:


> do I think that you have experienced totality at a decade not too many.


 
Totality is a bit of a strong word, don't you think?


----------



## saru1968

Nimravus said:


> if I wanted more sparring as opposed to better understanding of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, I would look to another style.


 
pretty much how i see it.

What to do something different, fine leave but don't stay and complain that you have to change it..then they do sound like whinging kids..


----------



## Bujingodai

I agree with that. No sense whining.
I still do train BTW. I just chose to taste other varieties and see for myself. I believe, especially being as I have now seen him in the flesh a few feet away Hatsumi Senseis mastery, I just happen to believe that a great deal of his org has fallen away from him. I think he is letting people shoot themselves in the foot so to speak, Judans and above included.

Some of the conversations I had in Japan, or listened to from some respected people turned me right off.
Mind you I had as many positive experiences. I trained with a bunch of people that impressed the hell out of me and I would love to learn from. One guy from Sweden especially, his heart was very good. Even a no one like me could feel that. His Sakki test was second to none.

I am sorry that the 15th dan saw it to express something on you in front of the crowd, maybe that made him feel better to belittle you.

My Sensei (s)has (have)  admonished me a number of times, however has always had enough honour to give me some diginity. What he did would make most walk away and you didn't. That is a testiment (sp) to you.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> At the very best, all training is a simulation of an isolated part of reality. It can *NEVER* be compared to the whole of reality itself.


 
Okay, so to clarify, though unscripted training is closer to a "realistic altercation" then say, merely kata, because it is not the real deal, it is better to avoid it all together?

whatever floats your boat, I guess.

On your comment that one needs to train with different people to find out if there are others who can offer more than one currently getting, yes agreed. But the only place we differ here is you use this thought in the context of the BJK only. I look at a dojo and I don't see a karate school, or a BJK school or a MMA gym. I look at an individual school and I see an instructor and what he has to offer me. I know from my own experiences 9real life and training) if what he is teaching me is rubbish, unrealistic or not. 

A good example is 7 years ago while training at one BJK school, the instructor was showing a defence against bear hugs (now this interested me a lot because on two occassions while trying to break up a fight 1) I had witnessed one guy rush up, bear hug another guy and toss him backwards and onto his head, then 2) a time as I had a guy pinned to the floor, one of his friends crash tackled me in a bear hug and tossed me sideways, freeing his mate to join in.)

The defence shown, seemed to rely on the attacker not moving from the spot. Simply walking up and bear hugging you. That would be fine if that was how the instructor was conveying the situation, but he made it sound like the universal method of escaping a bear hug. I asked "how does the tech alter if the attacker continues the motion. IE: if they hug and toss/throw?"

The reply I got was "That doesn't happen"

I am not one to argue with an instructor during his class. So I just waited until after class to discuss privately. He told me that what I had seen was not a bear hug. "You were probably too caught up in the moment to have understood what was happening" he said in a tone that much like you, seemed to brush off my experience. I thanked him for his insight and went home, where I asked my brother (a martial artist of over 30 years) to attack me with a bear hug.

Now note:
*I did not ask my brother to throw me
*I did not ask my brother to toss me sideways
*I did not ask my brother to dump me

But I did ask him to attack me. 
Each time he came at me from behind so suddenly and with such brutality, tossing me, dumping me, or throwing me, that every time I ended up on our matts with a throbbing shoulder, head or neck. Not once did the mighty foot stomp technique come into play

At the next time at class, I raised this with the instructor...his comment was "Your brother proabably didn't have you in just a bear hug"

And it was hear that I finished the class, went home and started looking for a new dojo.

Now, had I never been in a real fight, had never done another martial art and had never worked a door in my life, and had just visited 12 BJK schools and all taught that style defence like that (I know now they don't - I'm just trying to make you understand my POV)...I would not have known that his teaching method was crap. I would have thought I was the bomb when it came to bear hug defence.

So when someone trains only with a compliant uke that just stands there in a "mock bear hug" and never tries to throw/dump/toss...how will that student know if his "bear hug defence" actually works.


On the "illusions" of sparring. I don't know a single person that does randori/sparring and that thinks because they do it, they are invincable. In fact, people that spar tend to have a better understanding that every altercation has a different outcome and that there are no guarentees of victory. They have a far greater sense of reality, a comprehension and understanding to accept when techs fail, making it easier to move on to something else.

On leaving the BJK if you like sparring!
Why? There are quite a few people it seems in the BJK that have randori, pressure testing or resistance work or all all three. You just have to locate them.


----------



## Rubber Tanto

saru1968 said:


> pretty much how i see it.


 
So you feel a person cannot train their taijutsu and train randori?
How so?



saru1968 said:


> What to do something different, fine leave but don't stay and complain that you have to change it..then they do sound like whinging kids..


 
But I don't care if you change the way you train or not. You can train how you want. But I can have my opinion. Just as you have yours.

I like doing what I do. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating facts or views based on my experience with Martial arts in general.

Do you guys ever read your own posts?
Do you realise that now your argument has almost become "if you don't train the way I train then leave"


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Okay, so to clarify, though unscripted training is closer to a "realistic altercation" then say, merely kata, because it is not the real deal, it is better to avoid it all together?


 
Only to such an extent that it does not affect your ability to properly learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.



Rubber Tanto said:


> But the only place we differ here is you use this thought in the context of the BJK only.


 
Well, what can I say? That is what I want to learn.



Rubber Tanto said:


> The defence shown, seemed to rely on the attacker not moving from the spot. Simply walking up and bear hugging you. That would be fine if that was how the instructor was conveying the situation, but he made it sound like the universal method of escaping a bear hug. I asked "how does the tech alter if the attacker continues the motion. IE: if they hug and toss/throw?"
> 
> The reply I got was "That doesn't happen"


 
Bad instructor, yes. But why do you allow that to prevent you from exploring the rest of the Bujinkan?



Rubber Tanto said:


> Now, had I never been in a real fight, had never done another martial art and had never worked a door in my life, and had just visited 12 BJK schools and all taught that style defence like that (I know now they don't - I'm just trying to make you understand my POV)...I would not have known that his teaching method was crap. I would have thought I was the bomb when it came to bear hug defence.


 
My opinion is that you're underestimating what can be learnt from spending time around various Bujinkan places. Again, I did not encounter my first uncooperative training partner whilst doing randori.



Rubber Tanto said:


> So when someone trains only with a compliant uke that just stands there in a "mock bear hug" and never tries to throw/dump/toss...


 
You can do that within kata training as well. Look at what I called "practicing kata in such a way that it feels like randori" in my thread on the subject.



Rubber Tanto said:


> In fact, people that spar tend to have a better understanding that every altercation has a different outcome and that there are no guarentees of victory.


 
In a way, that's true, but in regards to the Bujinkan that has more to do with the generally way too low quality level out there. Hence the need to look around more.



Rubber Tanto said:


> On leaving the BJK if you like sparring!
> Why? There are quite a few people it seems in the BJK that have randori, pressure testing or resistance work or all all three. You just have to locate them.


 
Most of them have one thing in common, as have already been stated - they don't care as much about properly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


----------



## Bujingodai

I agree with both of you.
I find that only after some time do I see why something is done, it is more programming than anything else IMO. Thus can be trained to a degree without sparring.

Hmm, but I also believe in Jissen Keiko. I believe in spontanious attacks and how you'd react to them. Sparring is too sports orientated and if the partner doesn't express their intent enough....your buddies and don't care to hurt.
However I find that if someone is on the spot attacking you, much better result as long as you have enough control to stop it.


----------



## Don Roley

Bujingodai said:


> The idea that an opinion outside of the Bujinkan is wrong due to not feeling the totality of the Kan is silly.



It is silly if we are talking about the way things are done in the Bujinkan.

I know folks that do side kicks to the head. I do not do that kick in the Bujinkan. There is a reason they do it and we do not. The same goes for a lot of things. 

Looking at other arts has helped expand my way of looking at things. The problem is that if you do not have a base and understand why we do certain things the way we do, you will just end up like one of those Martial arts pirates.


----------



## saru1968

Rubber Tanto said:


> So you feel a person cannot train their taijutsu and train randori?
> How so?
> 
> I was refering to sparring not randori.
> 
> 
> 
> But I don't care if you change the way you train or not. You can train how you want. But I can have my opinion. Just as you have yours.
> 
> Opinion are fine but training in a fashion different to advice from seniors at the source can't be good.
> 
> I like doing what I do. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating facts or views based on my experience with Martial arts in general.
> 
> But i'm talking about BBT...
> 
> Do you guys ever read your own posts?
> Do you realise that now your argument has almost become "if you don't train the way I train then leave"


 
No but was the point in training different than advised, i would amend the sentence to if you can be bothered to train correctly as advised by you instructors/peers( the ones that have been before)..then yes go do something else, far too many doing their own thing. I quite like the idea of a fair system.

Putting it simply, if i advised a student not to train in a certain fashion and they disregarded my advice they can go train elsewhere. I think the shift has gone too much towards the 'recieving of the service' than the 'provider level'.


----------



## Bujingodai

I think what I meant there Don, was the notion that any opinion outside training in the Kan was wrong but I even lost my own point.


----------



## Seattletcj

OK, one more time...


strawman....train randori/sparring only
strawman....dont train in the basics
strawman....kata is useless
strawman....bujinkan is useless
strawman....sparring is reality

None of the above are being argued, so there is no reason to argue against them.


----------



## saru1968

Seattletcj said:


> OK, one more time...
> 
> 
> strawman....train randori/sparring only


 

OK, One more time....

Sparring is NOT Randori....

Randori is not Sparring.....

Different mindsets...

:mst:


----------



## Seattletcj

saru1968 said:


> OK, One more time....
> 
> Sparring is NOT Randori....
> 
> Randori is not Sparring.....
> 
> Different mindsets...
> 
> :mst:



Is this the best argument you could really come up with? LOL

Ok, strawman.... train sparring and /or randori only.

better?    :drinkbeer


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## DWeidman

saru1968 said:


> OK, One more time....
> 
> Sparring is NOT Randori....
> 
> Randori is not Sparring.....
> 
> Different mindsets...
> 
> :mst:



How can you say that?  Honestly?  The lines on Sparring and Randori are REDICULOUSLY fuzzy.  Just because you make them black and white does not mean that the rest of the world sees it that way as well.

-DW


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## Don Roley

DWeidman said:


> How can you say that?  Honestly?  The lines on Sparring and Randori are REDICULOUSLY fuzzy.  Just because you make them black and white does not mean that the rest of the world sees it that way as well.
> 
> -DW



There are some points on where they are very stark and in contrast.

Sparring seems to imply that both guys are there to win a fight and are competing. Of course, it has been pointed out that this is not the way most violent situations go down. In most situations, the agressor is not there for a fight since he is there to hurt the other guy and he himself can get hurt in a fight. So he uses things like sucker punches and the other guy is not aware he is in a 'fight' until he is being stomped into the ground.

Randori merely means that things are not set. You can have one guy try attacking and the other guy just try to defend and evade. Or you can have one guy try to apply various things and the other guy just try to prevent it. Sparring seems to imply that one guy will 'win' and that mentality is the one that I think Saru is talking about. Randori, as I have done it, really is not about winning. It is about surviving and learning.

And as for Seatle's comments about strawmen, I do not think that they are strawmen for the most part. You do not have to go far to find a comment along the lines of "If you don't try the move in sparring, how do you know you can do it in real life?" Well, if you are making that type of comparison the only conclusion is that you do think that sparring is real fighting. You can even find others saying that maybe it is not real, but it is the closest you can get to real fighiting. (Which of course, having seen Quinn's stuff, I disagree with.)


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## Rubber Tanto

_RT: So you feel a person cannot train their taijutsu and train randori?
How so?

Saru: I was refering to sparring not randori._

RT: So was I. In fact I have ALWAYS talked about randori (as have others) but you guys seem to keep trying to change that in your arguments. Very strange. I wonder why?

So once again for anyone thats joined this discussion late and can't be bothered reading 30 odd pages...

I have made my examples on MY OPINION on the difference between sparring and randori. To me, randori is a non-scripted exchange where one is a designated attacker and one designated defender. Where the attackers goal is to wear-down, and defeat the defender and the defenders goal is to maintain distance, defence to subdue and nuetrelize. To me, sparring is a non-scripted exchange where each one works to defeat the other.

_RT: But I don't care if you change the way you train or not. You can train how you want. But I can have my opinion. Just as you have yours.

Saru: Opinion(s) are fine but training in a fashion different to advice from seniors at the source can't be good.
_
RT: Again your arguments fall down by changing the original facts. I DON'T train different. I still do my ukemi just like everyone else. I still do my kata training like everyone else. I just have an additional class where I get to try my taijustu against a full resistant oponent. 

*Thats like saying - we both go for a jog every morning for 6km except on saturdays I do sprinting and long jump, so then you declare that I don't jog, or at best, jog different from everyone else. Whichever way you look at it...I'm still jogging.  *

_RT: I like doing what I do. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating facts or views based on my experience with Martial arts in general.

Saru: But i'm talking about BBT..._

RT: So am I - But one cannot ignore their past experience. Like it or not, Hatsumi Sensei and most of the Japanese shihan have backgrounds in other arts (Judo, Kickboxing etc) that had alive training. No matter how they train now, there is a part of their minds that always sees the realistic application of every technique when they apply it. People always point to their current destination but neglect to point out the journey that got them there. Do many of you believe that what they learned before and the way they trained before plays no part in what type of martial artists they are today? This is not a jibe, this is a serious question.

_RT: Do you guys ever read your own posts?
Do you realise that now your argument has almost become "if you don't train the way I train then leave"_

_Saru: No but was the point in training different than advised, i would amend the sentence to if *you can be bothered to train correctly* as advised by you instructors/peers( the ones that have been before)..then yes go do something else, far too many doing their own thing. I quite like the idea of a fair system._

_RT: The bold area is a poor statement. You are trying to imply to those reading that members of the bujinkan who enjoy training *randori* (noted in bold so that you do not once again confuse it with sparring) are lazy martial artists that cannot be "bothered" to train correctly. A stupid comment if ever I heard one as *adding* (noted in bold so that you do not once again confuse the word with "changing") additional elements to your training is actually harder work, and in my opinion, just another example of a practitioners pursuit for martial excellence.
_ 
_Saru: Putting it simply, if i advised a student not to train in a certain fashion and they disregarded my advice they can go train elsewhere. _

RT: So to clarify because you have now said that adding anything to your training is CHANGING your training, if you had a student that loved his BBT, but After 3 years of study decided that he was to keep training his BBT as normal but once a week he wanted to take a BJJ class so that he can have really awesome stand up skills (BBT) and really sound ground skills (BJJ) you would ask him to leave?

Simple answer: Yes or No?


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## Seattletcj

Randori, from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randori)
It is not black and white. 

*Randori* (&#20081;&#21462;&#12426 is a term used in Japanese martial arts to describe free-style practice or sparring, sometimes with multiple attackers. The term literally means "chaos taking" or "grasping freedom," implying a freedom from the structured practice of kata.
 The exact meaning of randori depends on the martial art it is used in. In judo and Shodokan Aikido, it most often refers to one-on-one sparring where partners attempt to resist and counter each other's techniques. In other styles of aikido, in particular Aikikai, it refers to a form of practice in which a designated aikidoka defends against multiple attackers in quick succession without knowing how they will attack or in what order. This form of randori is not sparring, and the attackers are not allowed to resist or attempt to counter the defender's techniques. It must be noted that the term is used only by Aikikai dojos outside Japan. In Japan, this form of practice is called *Taninzu-gake*(&#22810;&#20154;&#25968;&#25499;&#12369 which literally means multiple attackers.
 Although in karate usually the word _kumite_ is used for sparring, in some schools they also use the term randori for the "mock-combat" in which both karatekas move very fast, attempting and parrying acts of extreme violence with all four limbs (including knees, elbows, etc.) and yet never making other than the lightest contact. Total control of the body is necessary and therefore usually only the senior grades can practice randori. In these schools, the distinction between randori and _kumite_ is that in randori the action is not interrupted when a successful technique is applied.
 Randori may be contrasted with kata, as two potentially complementary types of training.


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## DWeidman

Don Roley said:


> There are some points on where they are very stark and in contrast.



Really?  Seriously -- when both the defition for Sparring uses the word Randori to explain what it is... and when Randori uses the word "sparring" to explain what it is... the definitions _*seem to imply* _a rather grey area here.  I am sure you would LIKE to see them as entirely different animals.  Just as I would like you to see them as the same animal.   However -- the only point worth recognizing here is that neither of us holds a black and white answer to the question.  Feel free to hold your breath and stomp around all you like... it isn't clear.  Period.

Here is the Wikipedia definition for you:



> *Sparring* is a form of training common to many martial arts. Although the precise form varies, it is relatively free-form fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called "verbal sparring".
> The physical nature of sparring naturally varies with the nature of the skills it is intended to develop; sparring in a striking art such as Savate will normally begin with the players at opposite corners of a ring and will be stopped if they clinch. Sparring in a grappling art such as judo might begin with the partners holding one another and end if they separate.
> The organization of sparring matches also varies. If the participants know each other well and are friendly, it may be sufficient for them to simply play, without rules, referee, or timer. If the sparring is between strangers, or there is some emotional tension, or the sparring is being evaluated, it may be appropriate to introduce formal rules and have an experienced martial artist supervise the match.
> Sparring is normally distinct from fights in competition. *The goal of sparring is normally the education of the participants, while a competitive fight seeks to determine a winner.*
> _*The educational role of sparring is a matter of some debate. *_In any sparring match, precautions of some sort must be taken to protect the participants. These may include wearing protective gear, declaring certain techniques and targets off-limits, playing slowly or at a fixed speed, forbidding certain kinds of trickery, or one of many other possibilities. These precautions have the potential to change the nature of the skill that is being learned. For example, if one were to always spar with heavily padded gloves, one might come to rely on techniques that risk breaking bones in one's hand. Most schools recognize this problem but value sparring nonetheless because it forces the student to improvise, to think under pressure, and to keep their emotions under control.
> Sparring has different names and different forms in various schools. Some schools prefer not to call it sparring, as they feel it differs in kind from what is normally called sparring.
> 
> In Chinese martial arts, sparring is usually trained at first as individual applications, eventually combined as freestyle training of long, medium and short range techniques. See chin na, pushing hands.
> *In Japanese martial arts, a sparring-like activity is usually called randori. In judo, this is essentially one-on-one sparring; in some forms of aikido it is a formalized form of sparring where one aikidoka defends against many attackers.*
> In Korean martial arts, (Taekwondo), sparring is called Kyorugi by the WTF or Matsoki by the ITF. In the World Taekwondo Federation, the majority of the attacks executed are kicking techniques. Whereas the ITF will encourage the use of both hands and feet and is closer to realistic combat. The ITF generally do not spar with headguards or Taekwon-Do Hogus.
> In Karate, sparring is called kumite.
> Taekwondo Sparring Champions
> In Capoeira, the closest analogue to sparring is playing in the roda.
> In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu sparring is commonly called rolling


Enjoy.

-Daniel


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## saru1968

Rubber Tanto said:


> RT: So to clarify because you have now said that adding anything to your training is CHANGING your training, if you had a student that loved his BBT, but After 3 years of study decided that he was to keep training his BBT as normal but once a week he wanted to take a BJJ class so that he can have really awesome stand up skills (BBT) and really sound ground skills (BJJ) you would ask him to leave?
> 
> Simple answer: Yes or No?


 

I won't bother with replying to the rest as its be hashed out so much I've lost interest..but i will say its not so much the physical aspects that seperate Randori and sparring but the mindset..sorry can't explain it any better.

Seperate classes are seperate classes but if the student decided to bring a conflicting training methodlogy into a BBT lesson, then they would stop.
If they want to learn BJJ then they can go to a BJJ class, Judo go to a Judo class. But at BBT class we do BBT. 

Its pretty straightforward, if i'm teaching then the students are there to learn and learn the way i am taught if not the door is always open.


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## Rubber Tanto

saru1968 said:


> I won't bother with replying to the rest as its be hashed out so much I've lost interest..but i will say its not so much the physical aspects that seperate Randori and sparring but the mindset..sorry can't explain it any better.


 
Don't bother. Saying the the difference between what you label sparring and what you label randori is what each person is thinking when they a training with it leaves it impossible to have a coherant debate with you on the subject matter. We'll just agree to disagree and it would be best for all.



saru1968 said:


> Seperate classes are seperate classes but if the student decided to bring a conflicting training methodlogy into a BBT lesson, then they would stop.
> If they want to learn BJJ then they can go to a BJJ class, Judo go to a Judo class. But at BBT class we do BBT.


 
Isn't that what I stated was the situation in the hypothetical? Way to go answering with the original question. Hence why I asked for a yes or no answer.



saru1968 said:


> Its pretty straightforward...


 
So straighfoward in fact, that you didn't give a straightforward answer. But I'm guessing it was in fact "Yes"


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> Do many of you believe that what they learned before and the way they trained before plays no part in what type of martial artists they are today? This is not a jibe, this is a serious question.




http://www.winjutsu.com/source/hatsumi.html#kihon





Rubber Tanto said:


> _RT: The bold area is a poor statement. You are trying to imply to those reading that members of the bujinkan who enjoy training *randori* (noted in bold so that you do not once again confuse it with sparring) are lazy martial artists that cannot be "bothered" to train correctly. _




For what it's worth, I believe that is at least partially true. A lot of people simply do find kata to be boring and uninteresting, at least in comparison.




Rubber Tanto said:


> _A stupid comment if ever I heard one as *adding* (noted in bold so that you do not once again confuse the word with "changing") additional elements to your training is actually harder work, and in my opinion, just another example of a practitioners pursuit for martial excellence. _




Look. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not my art or your art or any one of our respective teachers's art. It is the art of Masaaki Hatsumi. If you want to practice Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, it's the knowledge he's shared that's relevant in the pursuit of knowledge of his art. The bulk of that knowledge can be found in Japan.


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## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> [/color]Look. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not my art or your art or any one of our respective teachers's art. It is the art of Masaaki Hatsumi. If you want to practice Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, it's the knowledge he's shared that's relevant in the pursuit of knowledge of his art. The bulk of that knowledge can be found in Japan.


 
And no one is disputing that knowledge. And no one is disputing that the source of it stems from japan. I have a problem with this frame of mind and am quite aware that Hatsumi-Sensei owns this art.

But then again, I am also aware that Hatsuim says this art is an evolving art. and that each person make his taijutsu his own. I am also aware that people that have gone to him and spoken of adding elements to their training have been told that each makes their taijutsu their own. So this is probably why I find your above quoted argument lacking of substance. 

Oh well. As I have said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I can live with that. As my sensei said when I discussed all this with him. I will find two kinds of people in the BJK. Those that train with randori and those that don't. People on each side will always think their way to be the more logical training method. It is the natural order of things.
People could post in this thread until it reaches page 1,000,000 and still each will believe what they want. Nothing will change.

So thanks for the debate anyway, guys.
I have learned a little more about all of you because of it.
Cheers,
Nick


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Rubber Tanto said:


> But then again, I am also aware that Hatsuim says this art is an evolving art. and that each person make his taijutsu his own.


 
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/8290/modernninpo.htm 
RTFM


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## Don Roley

DWeidman said:


> Really?  Seriously -- when both the defition for Sparring uses the word Randori to explain what it is... and when Randori uses the word "sparring" to explain what it is... the definitions _*seem to imply* _a rather grey area here.  I am sure you would LIKE to see them as entirely different animals.  Just as I would like you to see them as the same animal.   However -- the only point worth recognizing here is that neither of us holds a black and white answer to the question.  Feel free to hold your breath and stomp around all you like... it isn't clear.  Period.



Could you tone down the heat? We can discuss this like adults, can't we?

And according to what I have experienced, Randori is a Japanese word that means that there is no set ending of the actions like in kata. Sparring is an English word and for years I went to tournaments where the sparring division was always two guys of about the same ability trying to win over the other.

So sparring is randori, but not all randori is sparring.

And it is the competive aspect of trying to _*win*_ over someone else that some of us do not like. A lot of people have chimed in about how we really can't challenge ourselves unless we go against someone who is there with the intent to defeat us and uses any means to do so. That is sports sparring as I have experienced it. I do not like it and I have not seen the Japanese do anything like that at any level of training in my many years in Japan.

But having one guy, or multiple guys, with weapons or maybe having weapons is another matter. I find it amazing that the title of this thread is 'realistic training' and started out by complaining about the punches we use in the Bujinkan. But of course, from there is got into a discussion of why we  should look to the UFC and such for what to train like and against. 

I myself would not call having one guy try to attack another with a rubber knife a form of sparring. I sparred for many years in another art and they never had something like that in that part of training. I find the whole idea that two guys are there to fight a foriegn one to me. If I get into a violent situation, it will not be because I was getting ready for a fight. So any type of training that starts out with the assumption that I am there to defeat the other guy by using violence is _*not realistic*_ from the start. I may be attacked and I train with that in mind. But I try to avoid violence right up to the point where the other guy throws the first blow and that is not what you see happening in sparring like the UFC-  but you do see it with Peyton Quinn and randorit practice in the Bujinkan Japan sometimes.


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## Don Roley

Rubber Tanto said:


> But then again, I am also aware that Hatsuim says this art is an evolving art. and that each person make his taijutsu his own.



Have you ever heard the term Shu Ha Ri? Do a google search if you have not. And then realize that the end goal is indeed to make the art your own (ri) and not just copy your teacher. But to get there you have to go through Shu and Ha. And when you teach others you teach them the Shu portion if you are using your teacher's name or that of his art.


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## Rubber Tanto

Don Roley said:


> Have you ever heard the term Shu Ha Ri? Do a google search if you have not. And then realize that the end goal is indeed to make the art your own (ri) and not just copy your teacher. But to get there you have to go through Shu and Ha. And when you teach others you teach them the Shu portion if you are using your teacher's name or that of his art.


 
No I haven't heard of the term. I'll look into it.
Thanks


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## Rubber Tanto

Nimravus said:


> http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/8290/modernninpo.htm


 
Thanks for that link.
Is the guy that wrote that article (Sven-Eric Bogsäter) this guy:

http://www.budogruppen.nu/dojoopening1.shtml

and is that guy throwing that punch a shodan or higher? I wonder if he is a student of Sven-Eric Bogsäter?


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## saru1968

Thanks for the conversation everyone but after recieving neg rep 
'Pure ignorance...I can't believe it!'

For my opinion on the different 'mindsets' on sparring & Randori.

Not really worth continuing.

cheers

Gaz.


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## Seattletcj

Don Roley said:


> Could you tone down the heat? We can discuss this like adults, can't we?



LOL, like in the "soke Hatsumi clips" thread ?



> And it is the competive aspect of trying to _*win*_ over someone else that some of us do not like.


Something about competition that seems to be the issue. hmmmm.
I recently heard that some parents here in the U.S are trying to make it so that there are no more scores in childrens sports. You know, everyone is a winner. Even the losers get trophies etc.



> A lot of people have chimed in about how we really can't challenge ourselves unless we go against *someone who is there with the intent to defeat us and uses any means to do so.* That is sports sparring as I have experienced it.


Almost sounds like real life too. Uh oh.



> But of course, from there is got into a discussion of why we  should look to the UFC and such for what to train like and against.


 ...strawman.


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## shesulsa

_*Admin Note:

Thread locked pending Admin review.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assistant Administrator*_


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