# high level skill



## marlon (Apr 13, 2007)

What do you consider high level skill in shaolin kempo or any kenpo?  Is there a ceiling to increasing skill or not?
Obviously i am not speaking about odd thoughts of being able to beat the crap out of anyone...
Respectfully,
Marlon


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## LawDog (Apr 13, 2007)

Yes there is a higher level of real skill.
:ultracool


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 13, 2007)

i don't think there's a ceiling -- at least not one that can be reached within the limits of a human lifespan.

there is a point of diminishing returns, i think, where new insights come fewer and farther between.  by then, continuing to train is almost an act of faith.  you know another epiphany will come eventually, so you keep at it.

just my 2 cents.


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## marlon (Apr 13, 2007)

Perhaps i did not phrase my question appropriately.  What is the way one defines high level skill in kempo / kenpo?  How is it different from a healthy, athletic fast 20 something 3rd degree black belt's skill?

respectfully,
Marlon


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## zDom (Apr 13, 2007)

Not a kempo/kenpo guy, but if you don't mind I'd like to chime in on what I've observed in the study of taekwondo.

One of the areas I see skill growing with years of training is in timing and the ability to "read" people during sparring / fighting.

In the same way a black belt can "see" what a yellow or orange belt is about to do, 3rd degree or master ranks can "see" what a first dan is about to do and counter them.

I know from experience I can often read beginners (and even black belts with less experience) so well that I almost have to pause and WAIT for them to commit enough to the technique they are about to do so my counter isn't launched too soon.

I imagine the same sort of thing proves true in kenpo/kempo.

Does this apply to what you were talking about?


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## kidswarrior (Apr 13, 2007)

zDom said:


> Not a kempo/kenpo guy, but if you don't mind I'd like to chime in on what I've observed in the study of taekwondo.
> 
> One of the areas I see skill growing with years of training is in timing and the ability to "read" people during sparring / fighting.
> 
> ...


 
First, you're welcome here anytime *zDom*, and I hope you come back often. (Hey, I even visited the women's section the other day--got a nice reception, tho they did tell me I had to wear a skirt and wig next time).

Second, not exactly sure what Marlon is asking (and Marlon, this is not criticism, just am not understanding your question I guess ), but my experience is similar to zDom's. The longer I do the arts and the higher I go, the better my timing, etc. The street-wise teens I teach after school often comment 'You're so fast' (meaning: for an old man :lol2 , but in reality I'm not that fast. But I've learned how to read body shifts which are preludes to attacks, how to take a better angle in order to ward off someone/beat them to the same spot, and to shake off/ignore the pain of strikes/qinna pressures and just complete my own attack.

I expect that if I can keep practicing/learning/growing for another 15 years, which will make me 70--the age of my current Grandmaster, all these areas will just be that much better. _*If*_ I can move like he does at 70, I'll be a happy man.


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## DavidCC (Apr 13, 2007)

I read an account of 2 9th dan in kendo having a match.  One struck 7 times, the other never struck, and did not even evade or parry the blows.  yet the one who did not strike was the winner.

When I figure that out, then I will know the answer your question.


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## dianhsuhe (Apr 13, 2007)

No idea Marlon, but I will let you know when/if I get there 

Train hard and persevere...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Apr 13, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> I read an account of 2 9th dan in kendo having a match. One struck 7 times, the other never struck, and did not even evade or parry the blows. yet the one who did not strike was the winner.
> 
> When I figure that out, then I will know the answer your question.


 
Where is this? This is a "must read" for me.


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## Tames D (Apr 13, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> I read an account of 2 9th dan in kendo having a match. One struck 7 times, the other never struck, and did not even evade or parry the blows. yet the one who did not strike was the winner.
> 
> When I figure that out, then I will know the answer your question.


Perhaps a story that's not true? Just a guess
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## stickarts (Apr 13, 2007)

I think a high level is acheived when one can not only perform the art, but also understand the reasons "why" behind the techniques.
Being able to lead others effectively in learning, being a contributor to the art, self mastery, and setting the good example also factor in.
There is no substitute for experience and it takes lots of that to get there!


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## DavidCC (Apr 13, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Where is this? This is a "must read" for me.


 
I read it in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Miyamoto-Musa...9155346?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176497960&sr=8-9





*Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings (Paperback) *
by Kenji Tokitsu 

Kenji Tokitsu is himself a high dan ranking in Kendo, and he wrote at length about the match and why it was the way it was, and how most of the students of kendo today don't understand this match and how sad that makes him for the state of kendo today.

This book is composed about 50% writings of Musashi, 50% by Tokitsu about the writings of Musashi. I recommend this book HIGHLY, and I haven't even started on the stuff written by Musashi himself!

It describes almost all of his 60 duels with a level of detail that is amazing for something that happened 400 years ago. That is just the beginning, it goes very deep into the developemnt of bujutsu, and later budo, the philosophical side of training the sword, and how it became intertwined with religion for the Japanese of the Edo through pre-WW2 periods. Since the author is himself a high rank in kendo and jujutsu, that seems to give him an excellent perspective into the material.


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## jdinca (Apr 13, 2007)

A high level of skill to me has to do just as much with understanding of what it is your doing as well as how well you do it. I'm a brown belt that's been teaching at my school for several years now. I know the techniques I teach very well. Yet every time the school master runs us through details of techniques, it turns out that there are layers upon layers of information contained in the material that less skilled, experienced student is not ready to learn yet.


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 13, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Where is this? This is a "must read" for me.



Ditto that.


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## marlon (Apr 15, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> First, you're welcome here anytime *zDom*, and I hope you come back often. (Hey, I even visited the women's section the other day--got a nice reception, tho they did tell me I had to wear a skirt and wig next time).
> 
> Second, not exactly sure what Marlon is asking (and Marlon, this is not criticism, just am not understanding your question I guess ), but my experience is similar to zDom's. The longer I do the arts and the higher I go, the better my timing, etc. The street-wise teens I teach after school often comment 'You're so fast' (meaning: for an old man :lol2 , but in reality I'm not that fast. But I've learned how to read body shifts which are preludes to attacks, how to take a better angle in order to ward off someone/beat them to the same spot, and to shake off/ignore the pain of strikes/qinna pressures and just complete my own attack.
> 
> I expect that if I can keep practicing/learning/growing for another 15 years, which will make me 70--the age of my current Grandmaster, all these areas will just be that much better. _*If*_ I can move like he does at 70, I'll be a happy man.


 

Criticism is never an issue with me.  I guess reading an opponent is one thing i would also consider high level skill.  I am just asking what are the end goals of your training. Are we seeking to be stronger better faster all the time.  in which case age would eventually force diminishing returns on us.  I look at Doc and his skill level doesnot depend on being faster or a certain body type or age. What is it we seek to master in mastering shaolin kempo? speed cannot be the answer

rerspectfully,
marlon


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## marlon (Apr 15, 2007)

stickarts said:


> I think a high level is acheived when one can not only perform the art, but also understand the reasons "why" behind the techniques.
> Being able to lead others effectively in learning, being a contributor to the art, self mastery, and setting the good example also factor in.
> There is no substitute for experience and it takes lots of that to get there!


 

Thank you.  When you say the 'why' behind the techniques are you speaking of anotomical reasons and tactics or something else?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Apr 15, 2007)

jdinca said:


> A high level of skill to me has to do just as much with understanding of what it is your doing as well as how well you do it. I'm a brown belt that's been teaching at my school for several years now. I know the techniques I teach very well. Yet every time the school master runs us through details of techniques, it turns out that there are layers upon layers of information contained in the material that less skilled, experienced student is not ready to learn yet.


 
i know i expirence something like this myself..even in discussions here on MT.  Can you give an example of some of the layers of info you speak of?

respectfully,
Marlon


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## kidswarrior (Apr 15, 2007)

marlon said:


> Criticism is never an issue with me.  I guess reading an opponent is one thing i would also consider high level skill.  I am just asking what are the end goals of your training. Are we seeking to be stronger better faster all the time.  in which case age would eventually force diminishing returns on us.  I look at Doc and his skill level doesnot depend on being faster or a certain body type or age. What is it we seek to master in mastering shaolin kempo? speed cannot be the answer
> 
> rerspectfully,
> marlon



The end goals of my training...What do I seek to master in the end...? Ok, that helps a lot, thanks Marlon.

I said s.th. close to what I'm going to answer here on another kempo thread started by Mike (MJS) awhile ago, and continuing as of yesterday. But won't hurt me to articulate it here.

There are four areas I want to master (keep peeling away layers in order to see further and further/understand more and more) and pass on to others before I die. _*The rehearsed components*_: *Techniques *in response to particular situations; and *Forms, *which unfortunately seem to be reduced to padding the content for testing requirements, instead of connected to fighting/self defense. And _*the unrehearsed components*_: the *Bunkai *of those forms, which is to me the primary reason for them in the first place (a lesser reason is conditioning, learning the body can move in ways we didn't previously understand, etc., that is, pure body mechanics and body 'building'); and the *use of those techniques* in simulated fighting situations. Most systems/schools use sparring for this, but to me there's a disconnect between learning 150-300 empty hand techniques for weapons disarms, defense against an attack, all with an unresisting 'attacker', and then strapping on gloves and headgear to practice against a resisting/fighting-back attacker _with kickboxing equipment and point-fighting rules_. How does the unrehearsed latter train us to become better at the rehearsed former? Instead, I've gone to the san soo portion of Kung Fu San Soo, where it's free 'fighting' but at maybe 1/4 speed and with lighter (hah!) contact so we don't have too high a body count (for examples, see the Chinese MA section, Southern sub section, where I've posted clips). 

So, the end goals of my training would be to become the best I can become in this lifetime at all four of these areas, and in teaching all four of these areas.


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## shaolin-warrior (Apr 15, 2007)

Marlon,
what a great question. Kempo is one of the few arts that allows all skill levels to become proficient at self defense. It really lends to the meaning " It is better to practice one technique a thousand times than one thousand techniques once." 
High skill level in Kempo IMO is when you no longer have to think about your reactions but rather react upon instinct. To loose all inhibitions about getting in close and seizing control. Allowing your block to morph into you strike naturally without conscious thought about feet placement or stance or balance. Being able to draw upon your specialized skill sets to know which techniques will work for your body type, whether to go to the inside or work from the outside. All of these things taking place in an instant IMO constitutes high skill level in Kempo.


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## SK101 (May 7, 2008)

marlon said:


> What do you consider high level skill in shaolin kempo or any kenpo? Is there a ceiling to increasing skill or not?
> Obviously i am not speaking about odd thoughts of being able to beat the crap out of anyone...
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hello - my two cents if you don't mind is high level keeps moving. An average person who does well is advanced around Green.

Yes there is a ceiling to all physical training. Are you hitting the training wall as far as energy or time?


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## Danjo (May 9, 2008)

marlon said:


> What do you consider high level skill in shaolin kempo or any kenpo? Is there a ceiling to increasing skill or not?
> Obviously i am not speaking about odd thoughts of being able to beat the crap out of anyone...
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Seems to me that the goal of the martial arts is to have the ability to defend yourself. Clearly being able to do that efficiently, and being able to teach that clearly, are the measures of high skill. Anything else is just window dressing.


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## Matt (May 9, 2008)

marlon said:


> Perhaps i did not phrase my question appropriately.  What is the way one defines high level skill in kempo / kenpo?  How is it different from a healthy, athletic fast 20 something 3rd degree black belt's skill?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon



I think that there is a higher level of skill. I think having the ability to perceive the opportunities that present themselves is one level. Being able to make the things happen that I want to happen is another. When I can look at a situation, decide what I want to have happen and then make it happen efficiently, then I'll have higher level skill. Doing it at a subconscious level is the skill level after that. Physical prowess is just one factor in making that happen. 

Just my opinion.


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## marlon (May 9, 2008)

thanks Matt.  I like your thoughts on this.

be well

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (May 9, 2008)

Matt said:


> I think that there is a higher level of skill. I think having the ability to perceive the opportunities that present themselves is one level. Being able to make the things happen that I want to happen is another. When I can look at a situation, decide what I want to have happen and then make it happen efficiently, then I'll have higher level skill. Doing it at a subconscious level is the skill level after that. Physical prowess is just one factor in making that happen.
> 
> Just my opinion.


 

Matt how do you train to develop towards this goal?  How do you help others to do so?  How were you hepled?  The answers may all be the same..or not.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (May 10, 2008)

of the things that have help me develop better skills, now is focusing on the concepts of kempo and applying them outside of the set techniques; discussions here on MT and the questions they raise about anything i might think i know or do not know; Doc; studying body mechanics esp. by applying the concepts i find in taiji to kempo  (sticking energy for example);  meeting masters and learning from them but then testuing what they said in order to prove it or disprove it to myself; asking my teacher questions; having the students ask me questions...all these thing help.  I feel any higher level skill i can achieve will come from understanding concepts and training these things in a dynamic fashion with a good partner.  In the basics of body alignment, body mechanics in relation to myself and the other, is where i find the most benefit to elevate skill.  It is when i look away from brute strength and youthful speed that i find ...a higher level of skill.  Then i question why teach anything based on brute strength and youthful speed.  But i am not one of the master of kempo so i ask everyone of you masters or not:  What is higher level skill and how do you train or teach to attain it?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (May 12, 2008)

SK101 said:


> Hello - my two cents if you don't mind is high level keeps moving. An average person who does well is advanced around Green.
> 
> Yes there is a ceiling to all physical training. Are you hitting the training wall as far as energy or time?


 
no, no wall (yet) i am looking for what the masters were looking for and since there are many masters on this forum...i thought it a great place to ask.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## MahaKaal (May 12, 2008)

I have not studied Kempo but I will add my understanding of what High Level Skill is according to the art I practise.

When you first start out at any art, there are the fundamentals, set techniques, correct posture, basic concepts, awareness etc.  The more you practise each technique the more you can understand the underpinning concept behind it, why does this work?  When you can understand a concept it gives the student a wider choice of how to fight, allowing them to not think of techniques they learnt in class, but instead be more dynamic and flow from one technique to another according to the situation.  Beyond this is understanding the timing of a fight, to be able to gauge distances, anticipate primary, secondary and tertiary strikes and allow your opponent to throw them.  Once you can anticipate, you will be able to make your opponent move and stirke in the way YOU want him to, by controlling the fight, angles, distances, tempo, you can choose which openings you offer the opponent without making them look like blatent baits.  Higher then that would be to syncronise yourself with your opponent perfectly and then ruin his timing, as what he expected has now totally been changed.  Once all this has been attained, you should be able to amalgamate it all together so that you use your skill to the level it is required when it is required, "gears" to put it into words.  Your ability should become instinctive and should happen by itself without even thinking, due to your experience and ability to calculate high levels of combinations, scenarios, counters and counter-counters.

But to get to that stage, requires enormous amounts of practise and honing of skill.  I personally dont feel there is a cieling of skill, as skill has no limit, you could take a whole lifetime of training and just keep getting sharper and sharper.


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