# Turning on Heels?



## Michael89 (Jul 25, 2017)

So I'm just starting out. I'm not really that good at  pivoting on the heels at same time when I punch. Is there any advice to offer to improving on turning heels? Thanks.


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## Headhunter (Jul 25, 2017)

Practice practice and practice the only way to improve anything


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2017)

I'm not sure what you mean, are we talking about pivoting on the heel as opposed to pivoting on the ball of the foot?


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## Michael89 (Jul 25, 2017)

pivoting on the heels. looks like I need to do a lot of stretching too


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2017)

If you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance", you will need to pivot your

- front foot on the heel, and
- back foot on the toes.

This way both of your feet will be parallel and not on the same line.

Also a pivot back foot on the

- heel is committed,
- toes is not committed (ready to spring).


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## LFJ (Jul 25, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance", you will need to pivot your
> 
> - front foot on the heel, and
> - back foot on the toes.
> ...



You're posting on the wrong forum section again.


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## geezer (Jul 25, 2017)

Kung-Fu Wang's post references generic kung-fu will not be very helpful if you practice Wing Chun, and more specifically a WC branch that advocates doing "stance turning" by pivoting both feet simultaneously with your weight on your heels. I once trained in such a branch of Yip Man Wing Chun and then switched to another branch, also coming from Yip Man, that favored turning one foot at a time with the weight on the center of the foot.

Considering the different approaches different lineages use, the best thing you can do as a beginner is keep practicing and get pointers from your sifu.


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## Danny T (Jul 25, 2017)

As geezer has already suggested it is best to get with your sifu as to the specifics of any footwork, turning, pivoting. In my experience with wing chun the different lineages and  even within the same lineages there are differences. Not that one is wrong or right but different. 
My first sifu had me pivot on my heels, the sifu I have been under for the past 20 plus years is more on the center of the foot turning one at a time however, depending on the situation has us pivot on the heels and at times more on the ball of the foot. Once the student is at an advance level he impresses to simply do whatever comes natural or just use whatever you need. Other organizations are a bit more on doing only one of the variations.
Do and practice whatever you sifu instructs.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance", you will need to pivot your
> 
> - front foot on the heel, and
> - back foot on the toes.


It depends on the system.  In Jow Ga we pivot on both heels. Because of how we strike, pivoting on the heel is better and prevents damage to the knee.  Not all pivots are the same when it comes to structure.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2017)

I don't know. Mabye?






I mean the demo seems to work.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 25, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I don't know. Mabye?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice video.  I couldn't listen to anything he was saying (wife listening to the news).  I could see that he had more connection to power with one method over the other.  I like how he showed punching in front and then punching behind.  I always punch with heels down and I pivot on my heels so I never thought about trying to do the same thing when the rear foot pivots on the ball of the foot.  Can't wait to hear it with the sound on.


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## KPM (Jul 25, 2017)

Michael89 said:


> So I'm just starting out. I'm not really that good at  pivoting on the heels at same time when I punch. Is there any advice to offer to improving on turning heels? Thanks.


 
Yeah.  My advice?  Don't turn on the heels!  Turning on the K1 point near the balls of the feet is more bio-mechanically efficient.     I've written about this in the past.  A search might find it.


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## Eric_H (Jul 25, 2017)

Without getting in to the efficacy of the body mechanic (which is one I trained a bunch and disagree with now) the best way to build it is to train slowly, and calmly in high repetition. Do it 1000+ times a day, only as fast as you can stay coordinated. Do not sacrifice form for speed, there will be time to build speed later.


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## geezer (Jul 25, 2017)

KPM said:


> Yeah.  My advice?  Don't turn on the heels!  Turning on the K1 point near the balls of the feet is more bio-mechanically efficient.     I've written about this in the past.  A search might find it.



Interesting thing (i.e. "BS") brought up in that video -- supposedly, if you turn on the balls of your feet you move your body away from the target and lose power. Well that's only true if you shift your centerline to the side when you turn. You can just as easily turn on the balls of your feet and press forward into the target. Or turn on your heels and shift your centerline away from your target. Or turn on the center of your feet and shift centerline ....or not, depending on what you are trying to do.

I believe you covered this back in one of your old threads.


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## LFJ (Jul 25, 2017)

KPM said:


> Yeah.  My advice?  Don't turn on the heels!  Turning on the K1 point near the balls of the feet is more bio-mechanically efficient.     I've written about this in the past.  A search might find it.



@Michael89 

And here is a detailed post why pushing from the forefoot to issue force is less desirable than the heel.

Also lots of information on proper pelvic tilt that accompanies it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2017)

KPM said:


> Don't turn on the heels!


Agree! The reason is simple.

When you have

- toes up and heel down, your opponent's foot can catch on your ankle. A foot sweep can take you down.
- toes down and heel up, your opponent's foot may slide under your foot. It's easy for you to escape out of that foot sweep.

When you walk on the frozen lake surface, you want to use "toes down first and heel down later" (non-committed) kind of footwork.

This is just general MA principle. It has nothing to do with "style".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2017)

geezer said:


> if you turn on the balls of your feet you move your body away from the target and lose power. ... depending on what you are trying to do.


This is true and I will call this kind of footwork as "non-committed" footwork. Since your heel is up, you are ready to "spring" (not when you pivot, but after you have pivoted).

As you have stated, "It depends on what you are trying to do."


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I don't know. Mabye?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good video.  I finally got a chance to hear it.  I like to hear from people like him who dig deeper into what happens to the body when pivoting.  He didn't say it was wrong or right, but simply explain what was going on.  Not to pick on Wing Chun but those guys (in general) should explain it in similar ways when debating about what type of pivot to do.  A lot of time it just turns into a purity match with no discussion of what happens when there's a pivot.  This also is good for people who pivot like boxers, but not for the purpose of saying which is right or which is wrong, but to point out why someone would prefer to pivot on the heel.

Before I get bashed (by others) I understand that the heel pivot isn't the preferred method of many systems.  Mike Tyson used both depending on the type of punch he was using.  Muay thai probably does it less simply for the fact that they always have that leg ready to kick or knee.

Thanks for posting.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> Do not sacrifice form for speed, there will be time to build speed later.


I like this.  It's always solid advice.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2017)

geezer said:


> You can just as easily turn on the balls of your feet and press forward into the target.


I caught that too.  The only difference with this is that to do so sacrifices your root.  For the most part people are going to get away with it.  But people who pay attention to how their opponent stands and how they root will take advantage of the person when they turn on the balls their feet and press into the target.

From a practical perspective with the knowledge level of most fighters today I don't think it's going to be a big deal, unless you come across a fighter who would be equally as happy to take your root as they would your head.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you walk on the frozen lake surface, you want to use "toes down first and heel down later" (non-committed) kind of footwork.


I don't know anyone that walks on the ice with their toes.  Most people who walk on ice take a flat foot approach to walking which would be similar to keep your heel down when you punch.   I don't know anyone who tiptoes on ice.  I know a lot of people however who shuffle across ice.


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## wckf92 (Jul 26, 2017)

Oh FFS....OP is not asking about heels vs k1 vs ball etc. He turns on his heels...and is asking for advice on how to get better with turning on his heels.


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## DanT (Jul 26, 2017)

How to get better at turning on the heels:

Do it more.


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## wingchun100 (Jul 26, 2017)

KPM said:


> Yeah.  My advice?  Don't turn on the heels!  Turning on the K1 point near the balls of the feet is more bio-mechanically efficient.     I've written about this in the past.  A search might find it.



I agree. If I pivot on my heels, I feel like I could get easily uprooted.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree. If I pivot on my heels, I feel like I could get easily uprooted.


Sounds like you are lifting your toes too far off the ground when you pivot on your heels.  Either that or you are pivoting too far back on the heel.


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree. If I pivot on my heels, I feel like I could get easily uprooted.



And maybe you would be. I'm the same way, since that's not how I train. ...But people who train with a heel pivot can get very good at it and won't have that problem. Ask Joy (Vajramusti), or anybody else from a legit lineage that favors that method.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2017)

Here's an example of what pivoting on the heels looks like when done in my system. You'll see me use both heel and toe pivots. I'm wearing indoor soccer shoes on carpet so there's a lot of friction. It's not the idea combination for any type of pivot.  Because of this you will also see me lift my foot instead of pivot in order to prevent any joint damage.  Other than that you can see that I'm not off balance.  The video is me doing the beginning of various forms


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## Parky (Jul 27, 2017)

Michael89 said:


> So I'm just starting out. I'm not really that good at  pivoting on the heels at same time when I punch. Is there any advice to offer to improving on turning heels? Thanks.



My advice would be to practice the turn without punching. The important thing about the turn is to do it as one unit. You don't want to turn the upper torso first, then the hips, then feet. You want everything to turn at once. Get that part down and then add the punch.

My advice...FWIW.


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## Martial D (Jul 27, 2017)

I generally favour, and naturally fall back on what they call in 52 'kickstand' footwork, meaning at any given time one heel is in contact with the ground and the other is raised. This allows for both rapid stepping and angle changing and 'rootedness' for power delivery. It depends on the shot whether it's right to left or right to right.(heel planted/hand being thrown) but the heel is always in contact with the ground where the power is coming from. 

Your milage may vary.


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2017)

52 is interesting ...and full of paradoxes. Heck, even the name Lyte Burley is an oxymoron.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2017)

The best fighting stance is a stance that you can spring from it. The "heel up" stance can help you to "spring".


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best fighting stance is a stance that you can spring from it. The "heel up" stance can help you to "spring".


  That picture is not a good support for your reasoning..  I ran track for 6 years and the reason the starting blocks are angled that way isn't to help you "spring"  The purpose is to position you into a forward leaning position which forces your legs to move faster.  You will either move your legs fast enough to prevent from falling or you will fall on your face.  Forward leaning running is the idea position for running fast.   A sprinter's spring is not the same as a fighter's spring.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> A sprinter's spring is not the same as a fighter's spring.


The reason that you intend to spring is because you have some distance to cover. If your opponent is 10 feet away, a sprinter's spring is the same as a fighter's spring.

In fighting, it's better to keep your "toes down and heel up". You don't know when and where that you may need to "hop forward" to gain distance.


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## KPM (Jul 27, 2017)

geezer said:


> 52 is interesting ...and full of paradoxes. Heck, even the name Lyte Burley is an oxymoron.



The "kickstand" footwork isn't unique to LB's 52 Blocks.  Boxers do it.


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## geezer (Jul 27, 2017)

In the FMA I train, our footwork is similar to boxing. We use a forward drop-step, or else a turn to get power. The front foot is flat and the rear foot plants with the ball, with the heel up. When turning into a punch we rotate on the ball of the rear foot like "squashing a bug" or grinding out a cigarette butt.


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## Martial D (Jul 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The reason that you intend to spring is because you have some distance to cover. If your opponent is 10 feet away, a sprinter's spring is the same as a fighter's spring.
> 
> In fighting, it's better to keep your "toes down and heel up". You don't know when and where that you may need to "hop forward" to gain distance.


Maybe if you are boxing or karate point fighting. If there is any chance of grappling(or you want to hit hard) your not going to want to be on your tippy toes.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 27, 2017)

Michael89 said:


> So I'm just starting out. I'm not really that good at  pivoting on the heels at same time when I punch. Is there any advice to offer to improving on turning heels? Thanks.


------------------------------------------------------------------Get the best wing chun teacher you can find and follow him until you become competent enough to make your own analysis.
I turn on my heels but that is linked to appropriate coordination of all my joints and balance.
BTW Ip Man turned that way, so did Ho Kam Ming,
so does Augustine Fong.I have seen Wong Shon Leung do that on video and in person.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Maybe if you are boxing or karate point fighting. If there is any chance of *grappling*(or you want to hit hard) your not going to want to be on your tippy toes.


The *grappling* art depends even more on the "toes down heel up".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2017)

dup, deleted.


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## mograph (Jul 27, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sounds like you are lifting your toes too far off the ground when you pivot on your heels.  Either that or you are pivoting too far back on the heel.


Yep. I would let the balls/toes lightly touch the ground, _sliding _them as you rotate, letting them stabilize you (letting them take weight occasionally) until you get _comfortable_ keeping your toes/balls off the ground. As you practice, you will learn how to shift your weight to stay stable with toes/balls off the ground.
Some practitioners advocate never deviating from the visible form, e.g. never letting the toes/balls touch. However, I think that such rigid dictums (dicta?) can lead to compensation in _hidden_ ways, such as stiffening the back, for example. Instead, as I wrote, I think you should work your way up to a toes-up stance, focusing on finding a way to keep yourself stable, rooted, yet flexible and _sung_.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent is 10 feet away, a sprinter's spring is the same as a fighter's spring.


It is not the same.  You are making an assumption based on a picture and not actually doing it.   I used to be a track sprinter so unless you were a track sprinter then you aren't going to understand the concept of that picture that you posted with the person in the starting blocks.  Which is why I posted a video of a person explaining it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The *grappling* art depends even more on the "toes down heel up".


Not true.  They do a variety of heels up, heels down movements


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## Buka (Jul 27, 2017)

I've never turned on my heals - until just now. Kind of makes me want my toes growing out of my heel.

But that just makes me wonder what shoes would look like.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2017)

This is what trying to stay on your toes looks like


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> I've never turned on my heals - until just now. Kind of makes me want my toes growing out of my heel.


Did your let your toes slide across the floor or did you try to completely lift your toes?


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## Buka (Jul 27, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Did your let your toes slide across the floor or did you try to completely lift your toes?



Both actually. Don't have a feel for either, but sliding the toes seemed easier for me. 
I think I'll wait another forty years before I do it again, though.


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## Martial D (Jul 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> dup, deleted.


Literally all of those pictures depict a mid-throw scenario, which is very different than a stance or footwork. Wrestlers certainly don't dance on their toes!


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## anerlich (Jul 27, 2017)

KPM said:


> The "kickstand" footwork isn't unique to LB's 52 Blocks.  Boxers do it.



Same thing with Bruce Lee's "small phasic bent knee stance" from JKD. (may have remembered that name incorrectly)


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## anerlich (Jul 27, 2017)

To achieve maximum power in many movements (including lifting, throwing, jumping, etc.) the calf muscles need to be engaged. Sometimes that requires the heel to be  off the floor, sometimes not.

It is possible to overthink this.


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## wckf92 (Jul 27, 2017)

anerlich said:


> To achieve maximum power in many movements (including lifting, throwing, jumping, etc.) the calf muscles need to be engaged. Sometimes that requires the heel to be  off the floor, sometimes not.



yup...squats and deadlifts and kettlebelling to mention a few


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## Vajramusti (Jul 27, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------Get the best wing chun teacher you can find and follow him until you become competent enough to make your own analysis.
> I turn on my heels but that is linked to appropriate coordination of all my joints and balance.
> BTW Ip Man turned that way, so did Ho Kam Ming,
> so does Augustine Fong.I have seen Wong Shon Leung do that on video and in person.



-------------------------------------------------PS.To understand my points-we distinguish between development and application. In form development heels on the ground..
In application adaptations occur.


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## Danny T (Jul 27, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> In application adaptations occur.


Yep.


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## Michael89 (Jul 29, 2017)

this been all very helpful to read.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 29, 2017)

I'm trying to think of any movement that involves turning the hips forward explosively in which I would want my back heel on the ground. From a Taekwondo perspective, I can't think of any. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Martial D (Jul 29, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm trying to think of any movement that involves turning the hips forward explosively in which I would want my back heel on the ground. From a Taekwondo perspective, I can't think of any.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A forward hand hook in tight.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

Michael89 said:


> So I'm just starting out. I'm not really that good at  pivoting on the heels at same time when I punch. Is there any advice to offer to improving on turning heels? Thanks.



Everyone will give you different answers because various lineages have different engines for their footwork. 

Personally, I wouldn't recommend turning on your heels at all (or your toes, for that matter), and only more one foot at a time.

By only moving one foot at a time, you are always solidly rooted to the ground and it's much hard to break your structure.

If you shift on your heels, especially both feet at the same time, then I can plow into you while you're in motion and you will have no choice but to either attempt to recover and step back or fall. If you move on your toes and I Laap, down you go...

I shift on the center/ball of my foot. If pressure is applied, I can root my heel, and if I'm pulled, I can root my toes. And since only one foot is in motion, the rest of my structure is solidly rooted on the stationary foot.   

Also, the way I move can be done in any shoes on any surface, not just in slippers on a fresh buffed floor. 

Not saying any other way is "wrong", just some food for thought about how I do it and why.


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## Michael89 (Aug 19, 2017)

Yeah. good news is I'm getting better at turning my heels w/punching (or Taun da, Guan da, Pak da, Jut da) which I think it is called "Juen Ma". I been with Wing Chun School for 6 weeks now and I been picking up some of terms.

also I believe this is what I was talking about http://www.wingchundevon.co.uk/wing-chun-turning-stance/


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## geezer (Aug 20, 2017)

Michael89 said:


> ....also I believe this is what I was talking about Wing Chun Turning Stance - North Devon Wing Chun Academy



Not how we turn. Each to their own.


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## hkreporting (Sep 14, 2017)

In WC, initiating any pivoting and turning actually comes from your waist, so whether its heels or balls of feet, it shouldn't matter much as the power comes from your hips, but you probably have better structure if you do it on your heels as you have a stronger central axis and can control your opponent better in close range fighting. In Chum kiu, all that turning power is from the hips/waist. This was the way one sifu in Hong Kong explained it anyway.


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## KPM (Sep 14, 2017)

hkreporting said:


> In WC, initiating any pivoting and turning actually comes from your waist, so whether its heels or balls of feet, it shouldn't matter much as the power comes from your hips, but you probably have better structure if you do it on your heels as you have a stronger central axis and can control your opponent better in close range fighting. In Chum kiu, all that turning power is from the hips/waist. This was the way one sifu in Hong Kong explained it anyway.



I agree with your first part, but not with your second part.  Turning on the heels may have a stronger central axis, but turning closer to the balls of the feet provides better balance, control and output of power/force.  If you turn on your heels, then your toes are swinging and cannot engage the ground as well for balance.  If you turn closer to the balls of the feet, then your heels are swinging and your toes can grip the ground better to stabilize and provide better balance and control.   If the opponent engages your center while you are pivoting on your heels, then you have very little "reserve" and can be forced back more easily.  If the opponent engages your center while you are pivoting closer to the balls of the feet, then you have more "reserve" because your weight can rock back onto your heels and absorb his force better momentarily until you can deflect it.  This also contributes to better balance and control.  If you are putting out force in front of you into your opponent, force is better expressed by pushing off with the balls of the feet, not the heels.  Sprinters do not apply forward force from their heels, boxers do not apply forward force from their heels, baseball pitchers do not apply forward force from their heels.  All of this is just simple biomechanics.


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## KabutoKouji (Sep 14, 2017)

as a slight aside, Yang Jwing Ming thinks that a lot of the times when the rear foot is supposed to pivot on it's heel traditionally in what we practice does not suit Western and/or longer legs.


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## KabutoKouji (Sep 14, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm trying to think of any movement that involves turning the hips forward explosively in which I would want my back heel on the ground. From a Taekwondo perspective, I can't think of any.



I really noticed this when I wore my old (Hayashi) TKD shoes to Longfist class once, and the heel area of those shoes was so thin and so biased towards always pivoting on your toes, that I found it very difficult to do a lot of transitionary stances etc., to the extent that I had to change back into my Feiyues after about 10 minutes of class. I had originally wanted to wear my older shoes as Feiyues on jigsaw mats are SOO grippy I was finding it difficult to pivot sometimes, but even with the much 'slippier' soles on the Hayashis, I went back to the Feiyues as the narrow heel thing was too much.


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2017)

hkreporting said:


> In WC, initiating any pivoting and turning actually comes from your waist, so whether its heels or balls of feet, it shouldn't matter much as the power comes from your hips, but you probably have better structure if you do it on your heels as you have a stronger central axis and can control your opponent better in close range fighting. In Chum kiu, all that turning power is from the hips/waist. This was the way one sifu in Hong Kong explained it anyway.



I'm curious about which branch of WC you trained. I can see how this might be a good way to visualize power generation in certain lineages, but not so much in what we do (VT coming out of the WT lineage).

We turn on the center of the foot, one foot at a time and visualize the turn beginning _with the rotation of the knee_ --much like thinking of bong sau being rotated by the elbow when working the hands. The hip is important and ads great power, but the alternating adduction of the knees is where our turn originates. See below at 21:00 - 22:30.


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## wckf92 (Sep 14, 2017)

Personally, I don't see how turning on the toes/balls/front of foot does anything.
I turn on the heels, initiating in the waist/core. Depending on weight distribution front to back and side to side will determine what one gets from this method of shifting. 
Either way, both turning methods are in the first form...take your pic and train the heck out of it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I turn on the heels,


If you train "foot sweep", you will never turn on your heel. There is a good reason that CMA has the "虚步 (Xu Bu) - empty stance". When you sweep that leading leg, your foot will go under his foot and won't be able to catch on his ankle.

Why do you even want to give your opponent a chance to sweep you?


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## wckf92 (Sep 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train "foot sweep", you will never turn on your heel. There is a good reason that CMA has the "虚步 (Xu Bu) - empty stance". When you sweep that leading leg, your foot will go under his foot and won't be able to catch on his ankle.
> 
> Why do you even want to give your opponent a chance to sweep you?



Perhaps, perhaps not. But, we are discussing heels vs ball or front vs back etc. 
Turning on the front part of the foot has its place...just like turning on the heels does. I think it depends on the how & why one trains this turning stance. 
Honestly, I'd have to visit and train with someone that turns near the front of the foot in order to compare/contrast etc. 
One of these days I'll swing by the Boston Gulao/Kulo/Pin Sun guys place and see for myself. I'm pretty sure the videos I've seen of them they are turning on the ball of the foot.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why do you even want to give your opponent a chance to sweep you?



Why would anyone want to do this...regardless???


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2017)

KabutoKouji said:


> as a slight aside, Yang Jwing Ming thinks that a lot of the times when the rear foot is supposed to pivot on it's heel traditionally in what we practice does not suit Western and/or longer legs.


In the long fist system, the back foot always pivot on the toes. There is a good reason for that. You are ready to "spring" from it.


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## Danny T (Sep 14, 2017)

Range and spatial relationship will dictate.
If you are dedicated to staying to a specific action no matter what happens you will be disappointed in the results.


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## wckf92 (Sep 14, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Range and spatial relationship will dictate..



Exactly.


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## Danny T (Sep 14, 2017)

Train diligently for what may occur most of the time but train some for the what ifs and the oops.
They happen a lot more than most people think.


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## KPM (Sep 14, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> I'm pretty sure the videos I've seen of them they are turning on the ball of the foot.



Actually the K1 or "Bubbling Spring" acupuncture point.  Or as close as possible.  It is actually about an inch back from the ball and at the center of the foot.   Saying that one pivots on the ball of the foot implies that you are also "up on the toes".....that your weight is forward, which is incorrect.


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## KabutoKouji (Sep 15, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the long fist system, the back foot always pivot on the toes. There is a good reason for that. You are ready to "spring" from it.



tbh I was actually thinking of a video of him talking about Yang Long Form TaiJiJuan, but I think it also applies to our White Crane, as I'm pretty sure there are times both heels were supposed to pivot in them


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## Parky (Sep 15, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Personally, I don't see how turning on the toes/balls/front of foot does anything.
> I turn on the heels, initiating in the waist/core. Depending on weight distribution front to back and side to side will determine what one gets from this method of shifting.
> Either way, both turning methods are in the first form...take your pic and train the heck out of it.



This is how I turn too. Everything is initiated in the 'Core' or 'Center' and the feet follow...naturally. Generally speaking my weight is on the heels.


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