# Marital arts? ..and learning to fight back NOT the same thing?



## still learning (Jun 29, 2008)

Hello, As the years go by....one realize to fight back is to learn street fighting or skills that actual combat style of fighting....

That is why? ...boxing skills need to be learn (including getting hits) ....JUDO and wrestling is hands on REAL TRAINING situtions...getting grab or hug is one of the better ways to get actual training...for Judo skills.

Sparring come close if NON-stop with contact  ...real fights is fast..furious..NO rules...anything goes...

If you do not do sparring or contact fighing,grabs,throws,hugs,chokes holds and escapes....?    or real like training? against real life attacks and MIND SETS and Adrenline training?  

You will one day understand the statements made above....

I stop training in our Universal Kempo Karate schools beclose after 12 years...looking back...hardly any sparring...training is strictly base for test ing  next rank...NOT much HARD PHYSCIAL TRAINING --running out of breathe style....

When you start to realize...street fighting is different from our training? .....and learning should not be years.....you question the teachings and thoughts of any martial arts..

After trying Judo and watching my kids do both High school wrestling and judo....two thing come out?

One:real training ..get many gains in actual fighing style 

Two: Physcial training is the MOST important..more important than any other skill....because if you can out run or out last the enemy...you will win!

Chop a tree down or dig a hole in the sand without stopping for two minutes or more or running FULL SPEED a mile or two....OR sparred againist several people for two minutes without stopping and not be out of breath?  

Then you are a true martial artist.....physcial side of it!  

Go to any boxing rings....tried just boxing against any boxer? ...you will find out how much skills you really have (boxing only)....

Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...

Just my thoughts and failures here......  ( training a new way) and maybe a new style? ....Aloha

PS: to learn to fight is to fight to learn......
combat soldiers know training is one thing...the real thing is so very different..ask any combat soldier...

Is your training ready for the real streets? .....????  one day you will find the answers..


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 29, 2008)

The Marital Arts?  Are those the ones with all the submissions and yelling?


----------



## MJS (Jun 29, 2008)

SL, question for you.  You live in Hawaii correct?  You hould have your pick of the litter of Kajukenbo schools.  Perhaps you should, if you havent already, check one out.


----------



## still learning (Jun 30, 2008)

Hello, Universal Kempo Professor Martin Buell  came from Kajukenpo and taught his version of it...time has change the teaching and thoughts..

He grew up fighing on a reqular basis doing his training...lots of black eyes and bloody noses and mouths,.... today the training is NOT the same...

Martial arts today for the general populations....is so commercialize?

Aloha,

PS: look at all the Black belts today? ....compare them to the seventies...NOT the same!  in sense of strenghts and skills...


----------



## MA-Caver (Jun 30, 2008)

Marital arts ... and learning to fight back ARE the same thing. 
The difference between the two is Martial Arts provide discipline and training. Repetitive and advancing training. Remember when it was said a person who achieved a black belt has the equivalent of a college degree? 
As a kid I learned how to fight back and learned the hard way. When I started learning Martial Arts I learned how to fight back but to be *better* at it.
Instead of hitting the guy there... hit him HERE and at this spot. Wow, they go down a lot quicker! And hey, what's this? I'm not hurt as badly or at all. But either way I'm fighting back... only now I have more discipline and training than the other (non MA-ist) guy.


----------



## allenjp (Jun 30, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Marital arts ... and learning to fight back ARE the same thing.
> The difference between the two is Martial Arts provide discipline and training. Repetitive and advancing training. Remember when it was said a person who achieved a black belt has the equivalent of a college degree?
> As a kid I learned how to fight back and learned the hard way. When I started learning Martial Arts I learned how to fight back but to be *better* at it.
> Instead of hitting the guy there... hit him HERE and at this spot. Wow, they go down a lot quicker! And hey, what's this? I'm not hurt as badly or at all. But either way I'm fighting back... only now I have more discipline and training than the other (non MA-ist) guy.


 
Good post Caver, but to me it sounds like his point is more one of MMA vs. TMA, or aliveness in the training. If so, it's nothing new, same old flame throwers...


----------



## hpulley (Jun 30, 2008)

Only a real fight can teach you about real fights but usually something you learn from a real fight with no training is that some training would help.  Some people throw out all their training in a real fight, others remember it.

Your point about conditioning is very well taken.  I watch people box for 12 rounds or do MMA for 3-5 rounds and I'm amazed.  3 minutes of judo is waaaaay too long for me even though I can ride a bike for an hour.  It is just a very different use of cardio so I agree that real fighting, even a safe version like judo or jiujitsu can be very beneficial and nothing teaches you to take punches like taking punches so they aren't complete either.

The real problem with most systems, including boxing, is the rules.  You can't do this or that when in a real fight those things that are illegal to prevent injury are of course the best things to do.  The on purpose exposure of the back of the head in boxing, MMA, bent-over judo styles really bother me as offering the back of your head is an invitation to be knocked out in one blow!   Any system which teaches you to offer your head as the other guy can't hit it due to rules is a bad system IMO.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Go to any boxing rings....tried just boxing against any boxer? ...you will find out how much skills you really have (boxing only)....
> 
> Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...


 
First there are different approaches to fighting and training MA that do not agree with boxing and that does not make them ineffective. Really train Xingyiquan hard and I do mean REALLY and you will be a very strong and effective fighter. Same goes for any MA, if you REALLY train it as it was meant to be trained.

Watch a sanshou match from another country and the most effective fighters tend to NOT to bob and weave. The problem with Bobbing and weaving from a CMA perspective is that you do tend to loose your root in there and that leaves you open for an attack.

However they sanshou fighters do train hard and they can certainly take a punch.

But as it has been already said the only way to know if you are effective in a fight is to be in one. And I do not recommend going out looking for them to check.

But I do agree that many Martial Artist today do not train as hard as they should


----------



## MJS (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, Universal Kempo Professor Martin Buell came from Kajukenpo and taught his version of it...time has change the teaching and thoughts..
> 
> He grew up fighing on a reqular basis doing his training...lots of black eyes and bloody noses and mouths,.... today the training is NOT the same...
> 
> ...


 
So...are you basing ALL Kaju off of one person?  You're right...things do change and mostly because of lawsuits....but, like I said, you live in an area known for Kaju...check out some other sources.


----------



## tellner (Jun 30, 2008)

There are some differences:
In _*martial*_ *arts* you learn to fight back. 
In *marital arts* you learn to swallow the urge and say "Yes, dear".

In both of them exotic techniques and disciplines from the faraway Orient can be very useful. So can outlandish costumes and mysterious devices.
_
[Gotta love the OP's typo]_


----------



## Kacey (Jun 30, 2008)

Um... I just have to ask - you did mean *martial arts*, right?  Because you wrote *marital arts* (note the flip of the t and i) in the title.  I mean no offense - it just puts a whole other spin on your post if you actually meant it to be spelled the way you did!  :lol:

But to get back to a serious answer, I have to say that I agree with your statement that one won't know how effective - or ineffective - one's training is until it is street tested, and that fitness is a big part of being able to defend oneself.  However, I do disagree with this part of your post:



> Then you are a true martial artist.....physcial side of it!



I may be misreading your post - and I may get others who respond in opposition - but I feel that the physical side is only part of it.  People can get fit in lots of different ways - but to stick with a fitness program, _any_ fitness program, requires dedication that many people lack.  To stick with a martial art, likewise, requires dedication that many people lack, or don't understand the need for (the "but I paid my dues and I've been "X" rank for "Z" time - what do you _mean _I'm not testing?!?!" mentality).  While the skills themselves are physical, most people who stick with learning a difficult physical skill will gain something mentally as well - an understanding of perseverance, of goal-setting, and so on, which may or may not be taught explicitly, but which are necessary to continue to improve.


----------



## tellner (Jun 30, 2008)

Thank you Kacey. I was wondering if my previous post was a little too obscure...


----------



## still learning (Jun 30, 2008)

Hello, Those arts where actual training (contacts) is one of the better ways to learn fighting skills. ..like Sanshu,kick boxing,Judo,etc...where contact is made..daily

Street fighters...ones who fought in lots of street fights...learn there own version of how to's....experience is one of the better training tools!

Most martial art schools do not let you go at, non-stop.  On the streets..it will be that way...NO rules too!

Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??

Are you physcial fit to go the distance!  Do high speed runs or dashes for one minute or more....can you do more of these? ...or be winded!  ..real fights one use more muscles and adrenline drains your power too! The tensity is different from any training halls.

As rule of tumb? ...most of us will not face this sitution, we may come close to it...at times

Something to think about? .......Aloha (awareness of one training....may save your life)


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 30, 2008)

From my experience in fights and fights I have personally witness most "street fighters" do not have proper stance,proper footwork or can throw a proper punch. For the most part they throw Haymakers and may try to tackle you to the floor. If you study any Martial art you will most likely have the advantage in dealing with them. Yes there are no rules in the street and if you are up against a skilled street fighter chances are he has a weapon or will sucker punch you. But thats my experience here in Miami.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??


 
Yes it did, thanks for asking.  

Three on one and they had weapons (improvised admittedly (broken bottles)).  The fight was over in about three seconds and I was running away - that was the only need for cardio fitness I had.

I left behind me one with a broken arm, one with a broken leg and another with, it would seem, a broken will to bother pursuing me.

I obviously have no experience of the background that you are drawing on in you posts on this issue so perhaps that is what is making me fail to see the validity of what you say?

Maybe there are no decent schools of martial arts in Hawaii?  Perhaps that would explain why you don't see the value of them?

Or it could be that I'm failing to interpret your words correctly?


----------



## MJS (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, before I get to the rest of this, let me ask again....have you checked out some of the Kaju schools in your area?  I wouldn't base the experience you had at your school, to all of the others.





still learning said:


> Hello, Those arts where actual training (contacts) is one of the better ways to learn fighting skills. ..like Sanshu,kick boxing,Judo,etc...where contact is made..daily


 
Oh, there is contact at my school. My nose is still sore from a hit I took last week. 



> Street fighters...ones who fought in lots of street fights...learn there own version of how to's....experience is one of the better training tools!


 
Ok.



> Most martial art schools do not let you go at, non-stop. On the streets..it will be that way...NO rules too!


 
Please tell me that you're not speaking for every school out there are you??  Because unless you know how all of them train, the most you can do is base your opinion on your school.  Oh BTW, I prefer the continuous sparring over the stop and go stuff.  That is what I do when I train with my teacher.



> Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??


 
Yes.   Keep in mind, alot comes down to how you train.  



> Are you physcial fit to go the distance! Do high speed runs or dashes for one minute or more....can you do more of these? ...or be winded! ..real fights one use more muscles and adrenline drains your power too! The tensity is different from any training halls.


 
Well, hopefully I won't be fighting someone for 20+ minutes like they do in the cage, but in the event that were to happen....to answer your question, I work out 3x a week and get my cardio in.  Am I a marathon runner?  Not at all, and I'm not training to be one either. 



> As rule of tumb? ...most of us will not face this sitution, we may come close to it...at times
> 
> Something to think about? .......Aloha (awareness of one training....may save your life)


 
You're preaching to the choir.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Is your school prepareing you for the real world? Can you fight back NOW! in a unknown enviroment against unknown person or person's??


 
I have to go with Sukerkin here



Sukerkin said:


> Yes it did, thanks for asking.
> 
> Three on one and they had weapons (improvised admittedly (broken bottles)). The fight was over in about three seconds and I was running away - that was the only need for cardio fitness I had.
> 
> ...


 
Not wanting to get into great detail, it is not a happy memory, but I had a similar experience back in my Jujitsu, TKD days. 

As for more recently I had a job that had the wonderful benefit of getting me into all sorts of trouble and I was Taiji then and it to got me through.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 30, 2008)

tellner said:


> Thank you Kacey. I was wondering if my previous post was a little too obscure...



I was typing while you were posting - I didn't actually see your post until just now.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 30, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I left behind me one with a broken arm, one with a broken leg and another with, it would seem, a broken will to bother pursuing me.



Well done sir. :mst:



Sukerkin said:


> Maybe there are no decent schools of martial arts in Hawaii?  Perhaps that would explain why you don't see the value of them?



No decent schools in the birthplace of Kenpo?  Not bloody likely.


----------



## bowser666 (Jul 1, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, As the years go by....one realize to fight back is to learn street fighting or skills that actual combat style of fighting....
> 
> That is why? ...boxing skills need to be learn (including getting hits) ....JUDO and wrestling is hands on REAL TRAINING situtions...getting grab or hug is one of the better ways to get actual training...for Judo skills.
> 
> ...




Sounds to me like you just need to find a school that teaches more application rather than material review for a belt test.  I find that MA ar actually quite useful for self defense. The one thing that cracks me up though is how everyone seems to make it to be that some guy in a Alley or a few people in a alley are going to have specialized training.  HAHA   what are the chances of you running into a Pro boxer, or pro MMA fighter,  or any kind of a pro in a situation like that. Probably 98% of the general population of the world have no formal training whatsoever.  They are simply brawlers.  SO if you keep a good head on your shoulders and don't sleep during your training, you will already have an advantage.  Stop thinking the what if's............

What if he is a ninja?
What if he is able to bench 400 pounds ?
What if ......  blah blah blah.  

Most people don't even knwo the right way to throw a punch,  much less block one.


----------



## punisher73 (Jul 1, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> Sounds to me like you just need to find a school that teaches more application rather than material review for a belt test. I find that MA ar actually quite useful for self defense. The one thing that cracks me up though is how everyone seems to make it to be that some guy in a Alley or a few people in a alley are going to have specialized training. HAHA what are the chances of you running into a Pro boxer, or pro MMA fighter, or any kind of a pro in a situation like that. Probably 98% of the general population of the world have no formal training whatsoever. They are simply brawlers. SO if you keep a good head on your shoulders and don't sleep during your training, you will already have an advantage. Stop thinking the what if's............
> 
> What if he is a ninja?
> What if he is able to bench 400 pounds ?
> ...


 
I agree.  I see the same type of propaganda in the RBSD (which do have a great deal to offer) styles.  It seems like EVERY fight has either multiple opponents, weapons, or some huge expert fighter.  I always wonder where these guys hang out, as part of self-defense is knowing where to go and not to go, especially in an unfamiliar place (ie: vacation).  Most fights are NOT criminal attacks where you are suddenly jumped out of nowhere (yes, they do happen though).  They are usually fights over ego, over a perceived slight and usually alcohol is involved for at least one of the participants.

I think we should train for worst case scenarios, but at the same time look at your environment and what you are most likely to encounter.


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 1, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> No decent schools in the birthplace of Kenpo? Not bloody likely.


I think that was tongue in cheek.


----------



## allenjp (Jul 1, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I agree. I see the same type of propaganda in the RBSD (which do have a great deal to offer) styles. It seems like EVERY fight has either multiple opponents, weapons, or some huge expert fighter. I always wonder where these guys hang out, as part of self-defense is knowing where to go and not to go, especially in an unfamiliar place (ie: vacation). Most fights are NOT criminal attacks where you are suddenly jumped out of nowhere (yes, they do happen though). They are usually fights over ego, over a perceived slight and usually alcohol is involved for at least one of the participants.
> 
> I think we should train for worst case scenarios, but at the same time look at your environment and what you are most likely to encounter.


 
I have often thought of this myself...that is why I have always thought I would not fight for ego or for any other reason except fear for my safety, or that of someone else who I thought it worth defending. However really one must realize that there may be situations in which it is impossible or impractical to escape that guy who feels you slighted him by looking at his girlfriend, or spilling coke on his shoes, or some other silly thing he thinks is reason enough to "teach you a lesson", you just have to fight them. And in this case, you're right. Most people who will attack you for reasons as stupid as these aren't going to be expert fighters. And one should be aware of the difference. 

Never discount thought that there are people out there who are great trained or natural fighters who for some reason feel it necessary to "display" their skills on a regular basis, and are just looking to hurt people. One should also be prepared for that.

One other thing about some of the OP's posts, that I have tried to say time and again. If you feel that techniques that aren't used in free full contact sparring against fully resistant opponents can't be effective in a real fight, IMHO you are wrong. There are many, many techniques that are simply too DANGEROUS to practice at full speed in free sparring, because they are intended to seriously injure, maim, or even kill your opponent. That is why many disciplines, and individual schools feel that free sparring can lead to a fighter developing bad habits. In the stress of a real fight, concious thought for many people goes right out the window, and they revert back to what they most often do in practice, and if they practice too much in sparring, that will be non lethal or non injurious techniques, which may be just what you need to employ in a serious situation to quickly put an opponent out of comission and save your life.

My advice is not to discount a dojo (or dojang, gym, studio, or whatever) nor a particular discipline because they don't do much sparring. 

As for the physical conditioning part, I agree that that is a too often overlooked part of MA training. Currently I train BJJ, so I don't have to worry about looking for outside conditioning programs, because if I can last for a twenty minute grappling match, I can outlast most streetfighters or muggers without a problem. But if you happen to train at a school which doesn't stress physical conditioning as part of their program, you can always do that part on your own.


----------



## JBrainard (Jul 1, 2008)

still learning said:


> Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...


 
My instructor has been incorporating more and more boxing into our Arnis training, and I can really feel the difference in the intensity of our training. I think it's something that any striking based MA for self defense should put some focus into.
Just my two cents.


----------



## Brian S (Jul 1, 2008)

I can't out box a boxer. Why would i want to try? But, I can out fight a boxer. Karate gives me many more skill sets than just boxing.
 I do agree with the aliveness in training.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jul 1, 2008)

The advantage that many 'street fighters' have over a 'trained martial artist' is that the mindset, the willingness to hurt someone else and do it FIRST, without regard for your own safety......vastly more often than not trumps technical skill in the street.  That's why boxers and other combat sport fighters are such good 'street fighters'......they really have no compunction about hurting someone, and doing it first......they do it for a living.

There's something to be said about harnessing the mentality that you will destroy another human being under certain circumstances without regard for your own safety.  Those who think 'I will simply do what I need to in order to keep from getting hurt' are fine in most minor circumstances (drunken belligerent brother-in-law, aggressive drunken panhandler, etc.) but there is a POINT at which that thinking is inadequate and something more PRIMAL is called for.

I like to envision it as if part of you is a vicious, wild-animal that wants to destroy.....that part has to be kept on a short lease, as he is not fit for polite society.  But there are occasions when it's appropriate to unleash that animal and set him loose to destroy!  Most people spend their entire lives trying to pretend that beast does not exist, so they do not learn to harness it.  But to a person interested in surviving the primal thing we know as 'physical conflict' it is essential to train that beast on how (and when) to destroy.  

Because you can dress up physical conflict in all the trappings you want, paint it pink and give it a cute name.....but at the end of the day it's STILL one monkey trying to bash another monkey's BRAINS out with his bare hands, teeth, stick, knife, etc!


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jul 1, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> My instructor has been incorporating more and more boxing into our Arnis training, and I can really feel the difference in the intensity of our training. I think it's something that any striking based MA for self defense should put some focus into.
> Just my two cents.


 The thing about the FMA's for combat is that they never developed a formal mindset other than 'that which is necessary to overcome the other'.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 1, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> My instructor has been incorporating more and more boxing into our Arnis training, and I can really feel the difference in the intensity of our training. I think it's something that any striking based MA for self defense should put some focus into.
> Just my two cents.


 
Nothing against boxing it is great training and boxers can generally hit very hard but my Xingyiquan Sifu tried incorporating Boxing into Xingyiquan in application and it was just so far off the mark it was intolerable but then Xingyiquan's approach to fighting is quite different from boxing as are many CMA styles views of fighting.

I will admit it was a lot of fun at first (one maybe two classes) but after that it was just became unbearably wrong rather fast from a Xingyiquan perspective.


----------



## JBrainard (Jul 1, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The thing about the FMA's for combat is that they never developed a formal mindset other than *'that which is necessary to overcome the other'*.


 
Isn't that what self defense is all about?


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 1, 2008)

*Mac* raises an interesting point in his post above.  

It is very important to recognise what is in our own natures and as part of our training learn to use our traits as best we can.

In my young years, as I've confessed before here at MT, I had a very aggressive streak.  Solving disagreeents 'with my fists' was a first port of call rather than a last resort .  

Thankfully, my father managed, by dint of strict discipline, to get that out of me by the time I reached Secondary School.  Indeed, he did so well that I was utterly averse to using violence to settle anything, even if self defence was warranted i.e. I was reflexively conditioned *not* to fight, no matter what the provocation.

When I started training in martial arts tho', I recognised that that part of me was still actually 'in there' and it was as if the training gave it 'permission' to come back out - it was the bit of my nature that loved to spar and would drive on in these mock fights, even if I was taking a kicking.  

I knew I had to watch it as that aggression had to be under my control, rather than the other way around.  Which is part of the point that *Mac* was making I think.

So, to cut a long story short (ish ) in all the years I've been around and the odd potentially unpleasant encounter I have had, that aggressive streak has never been allowed out for 'real'.  Until that one time I made a couple of mistakes of judgement and ended up cornered in an alley.  I don't remember consciously deciding that this situation warranted a high degree of violence but *Mac*'s analogy of 'letting the primitive off the leash' works very well for describing the change.

I prefer to think of it as letting that primitive have a little more leash tho', rather than letting go of all control.  Otherwise I dread to think what would've happened if I hadn't retained enough conscious supervisory oversight to figure I'd done enough to escape and legged it.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 1, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> Isn't that what self defense is all about?


 
I quite agree.  I do think tho' that a violent conclusion means a degree of failure to negotiate a better way of ending matters.  

I know that sometimes there really is no other choice, as in my encounter where I genuinely, deep down, feared for my life.  But it still bothers me that I couldn't find a way out that didn't involve breaking integral parts of other humans.


----------



## allenjp (Jul 1, 2008)

Sukerkin,

In your last post I assume you are referring to the same encounter that you mentioned earlier when it was you against three others?

If so, I wanted to commend you for having the control to run once you gained the upper hand. Running is always a great option, as long as it is possible, and practical in the particular situation.


----------



## chinto (Jul 2, 2008)

By Ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States of America.. in the USA the police have the DUTY TO investigate a crime once it has happened.. and arrest any one indicted, and testify to the evidence in the case.. NOT PROTECT THE PUBLIC OR INDIVIDUAL!!!   that is a ruling that has been  reconfirmed several times in the last century!!!! Also the fact that self defense is the individual persons problem and duty in the same rulings!!! keep that in mind in the US !! ( I live in the USA and am Proud to be a citizen of the USA)


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> Isn't that what self defense is all about?


 It should be....unfortunately as is often happens, sometimes dogma gets in the way of the practical.  We often lose sight of our original goals in the details of pursuing them if you get my meaning.  It helps to remind ourselves from time to time what our original purpose was.


----------



## MJS (Jul 2, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> Sounds to me like you just need to find a school that teaches more application rather than material review for a belt test. I find that MA ar actually quite useful for self defense. The one thing that cracks me up though is how everyone seems to make it to be that some guy in a Alley or a few people in a alley are going to have specialized training. HAHA what are the chances of you running into a Pro boxer, or pro MMA fighter, or any kind of a pro in a situation like that. Probably 98% of the general population of the world have no formal training whatsoever. They are simply brawlers. SO if you keep a good head on your shoulders and don't sleep during your training, you will already have an advantage. Stop thinking the what if's............
> 
> What if he is a ninja?
> What if he is able to bench 400 pounds ?
> ...


 
You know, I notice the same thing.  I highly doubt the punk who is looking to rob me of my cell phone, cash and watch is a 10 time world class BJJ champ.


----------



## kidswarrior (Jul 2, 2008)

MJS said:


> You know, I notice the same thing.  I highly doubt the punk who is looking to rob me of my cell phone, cash and watch is a 10 time world class BJJ champ.


:lol: So true. I interact with guys like this weekly, often as older siblings of my students. They mostly count on our fear of them to start the momentum of the crime going their direction. But if we have/show no fear of them  then they're just another untrained, undisciplined fighter looking for an easy victim


----------



## MJS (Jul 2, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I have often thought of this myself...that is why I have always thought I would not fight for ego or for any other reason except fear for my safety, or that of someone else who I thought it worth defending. However really one must realize that there may be situations in which it is impossible or impractical to escape that guy who feels you slighted him by looking at his girlfriend, or spilling coke on his shoes, or some other silly thing he thinks is reason enough to "teach you a lesson", you just have to fight them. And in this case, you're right. Most people who will attack you for reasons as stupid as these aren't going to be expert fighters. And one should be aware of the difference.


 
Good points!



> Never discount thought that there are people out there who are great trained or natural fighters who for some reason feel it necessary to "display" their skills on a regular basis, and are just looking to hurt people. One should also be prepared for that.


 
Agreed.  While the odds of someone being in the same class as Royce or Chuck, I do feel that it is a good idea to be as prepared as possible.  Have some solid weapon work under your belt so in the event someone pulls a blade on you, your odds of survival may be increased.  Have some grappling under your belt, so in the event you get taken down, fall down or whatever, and this person continues the attack, you'll stand a better chance of defending and getting back to your feet.  



> One other thing about some of the OP's posts, that I have tried to say time and again. If you feel that techniques that aren't used in free full contact sparring against fully resistant opponents can't be effective in a real fight, IMHO you are wrong. There are many, many techniques that are simply too DANGEROUS to practice at full speed in free sparring, because they are intended to seriously injure, maim, or even kill your opponent. That is why many disciplines, and individual schools feel that free sparring can lead to a fighter developing bad habits. In the stress of a real fight, concious thought for many people goes right out the window, and they revert back to what they most often do in practice, and if they practice too much in sparring, that will be non lethal or non injurious techniques, which may be just what you need to employ in a serious situation to quickly put an opponent out of comission and save your life.
> 
> My advice is not to discount a dojo (or dojang, gym, studio, or whatever) nor a particular discipline because they don't do much sparring.


 
More good points.  In debates with 'certain groups' of people, I've said many times, that I'm not going to throw away an eye jab, because a) you dont see it in the ring, b) because its a low percentage move or c) because Rickson didn't do it in his fights.  If they don't want to do it, if they can't do it or if they can't train it properly, fine...don't do it, but like I said, I'm going to keep working it. 



> As for the physical conditioning part, I agree that that is a too often overlooked part of MA training. Currently I train BJJ, so I don't have to worry about looking for outside conditioning programs, because if I can last for a twenty minute grappling match, I can outlast most streetfighters or muggers without a problem. But if you happen to train at a school which doesn't stress physical conditioning as part of their program, you can always do that part on your own.


 
True.


----------



## kwaichang (Jul 2, 2008)

Well for me, awareness and avoidance work well.  I can always fall back on 'armed citizen' if circumstances dictate.  After all, sometimes you just don't feel like getting dirty.:uhyeah:


----------

