# Posture/Form names



## Xue Sheng (Nov 13, 2006)

There is another post here on MT that hit on the importance of posture names to the style. And my background is Internal CMA and in general I have always felt that the names of the forms where important, but I tend towards tradition so I would likely feel that way. But reading through the other post I began to wonder does knowing or not knowing the names of the forms matter when it comes to being a good teacher of the style. 

My gut reaction says yes, if you do not teach the form names then you are not teaching the style, but that lead me to another thought. If knowing the form names is an indication of someones ability to teach than there are an awful lot of people out there that can recite form names, particularly in Tai Chi that would have to be considered, at least in part, good teachers. And I can tell you from personal experience that is NOT the case. An awful lot of people teaching Tai Chi light know the names of the forms and as a matter of fact when I use to teach I handed out a sheet with the names of all the postures that made up the forms so my students would know the names. But after they learned only 24 and knowing the names does that make them a good teacher? I think not.

When I trained Long Fist and Bagua for that matter I never learned the names, but if I had asked my Sifu he likely could have told them to me. I did run into a name issue with him once in a form but it was more of a translation issue from Mandarin to English than not knowing the name.

Also I now train non-sport Sanda (Sanshou) and I bet if I did ask my Sifu the names of forms they would translate from Mandarin to English to things like hitting a tree punch in the face or high forearm strike and those are likely the names. 

Long way around to a few questions;

1) Do you think form/posture names are important and why or why not?

2) Do you think knowing or not knowing the form/posture names should be used to judge a teachers ability to teach (why or why not)?

3) Are the names of the forms/postures important to all Martial arts or just some (why or why not)?


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## bydand (Nov 13, 2006)

I have to say that in my opinion, the name of the form itself is of little value in the actual learning of the form.  Do I want to know what the names are of the forms/techniques that I am learning and training? Yes I do.  I am also a bit old school in that aspect as well.  To answer you questions directly



Xue Sheng said:


> 1) Do you think form/posture names are important and why or why not?



I do to a certain extent.  In some arts they are a discriptive of the actual movement.  In that usage it may be a good way to visulize and remember the movement, the name represents.  Also the higher the rank you obtain, the more students who are just starting look to you for advice and knowledge, it does not matter if you are the actual instructor or not.  You become a role model of sorts, and it just is more telling of the time and effort put into the art if you can tell them the name of a form/technique if they ask.



Xue Sheng said:


> 2) Do you think knowing or not knowing the form/posture names should be used to judge a teachers ability to teach (why or why not)?



NO!  An instructor may not know or remember  the names of all the techniques they teach, but that does not detract from their ability.  Now if a student wants to know the name of a form or technique and the instructor does not remember it, they should find out and get back to the student.  If they do know it and will not tell the student for whatever reason, then it is just being elitist, or an ***.  Either way they are probably not an instructor I would recomend staying with.  After all, the name of a form will not teach you the form itself, that comes from training and nothing else. Knowing the name isn't a hinderance to learning or teaching.



Xue Sheng said:


> 3) Are the names of the forms/postures important to all Martial arts or just some (why or why not)?



I think it would be important to all Martial Arts reguardless of the style.  If you go to a seminar or get together and everybody is talking about the particulars of a form or technique it would be awful hard to keep having to explain or demonstrate the form for everybody who happens to join the disscusion.  names are just a handy way to communicate with other Martial Artists.  Same as our names, It makes it easier if somebody is talking about me just to say Scott, instead of "that 6'2" guy with brown hair, a bit overweight, Has on the Black Gi with the Nin symbol on the Left breast, Handsome, debonair, and rich." (OK I added those last few  ) I think you get the idea.


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## funnytiger (Nov 13, 2006)

> 1) Do you think form/posture names are important and why or why not?


 
Yes, they are absolutely important for a number of reasons that were mentioned in the other post you spoke of namely, communication between styles, between schools, between teacher and student.



> 2) Do you think knowing or not knowing the form/posture names should be used to judge a teachers ability to teach (why or why not)?


 
Being a good teacher involves a lot of things that aren't even related to the martial art you are teaching. Its a personality and temperment that not everyone has. I think it is something that some people have and some don't. Just because you can do something well, doesn't mean you can teach it. Nah mean?

Knowing the names of forms doesn't make you a bad teacher, but it does speak of your teaching style/skills/ability. Not saying its negative or not, but I think you can tell what kind of teacher someone might be based on that little bit of information. 



> 3) Are the names of the forms/postures important to all Martial arts or just some (why or why not)?


 
Wow... I don't know. I'm not sure that it is, but I don't have enough knowledge with other styles to really answer that. Good questions...


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## pete (Nov 13, 2006)

form names are there for a reason, be it functional, historical, philiosophical, whatever.  one should learn them.

however, learning the form names isolates each movement and may lead to a student developing a start/stop at each point.  i was taught that the entire form was one continuous movement, without designated breaks.  therefore, i do not emphasize the names when i teach the form, but i do inform students of the names.  

also, the names in most arts (aside from those like american kenpo) are translations that do not always retain their original meaning, or may have a reference to something students have no familiarity with... like 'high pat on horse' may cause one to think of an old irishman strung out on heroin??!!?


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## jks9199 (Nov 13, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Long way around to a few questions;
> 
> 1) Do you think form/posture names are important and why or why not?



Having a name for a form or posture is important.  That it be in another language or flowery imagery isn't.  Punch #1 works as well as straight punch or thunderbolt strike.  But without some sort of name -- it becomes impossible to communicate about it!  Imagine... OK, class, now do that punch with the fist vertical which starts here that we did 2 months ago...  Same thing with forms; you need some sort of nomenclature for convenience.  Of course, when you cross systems, you get even more confusion...



> 2) Do you think knowing or not knowing the form/posture names should be used to judge a teachers ability to teach (why or why not)?



Within a system, it can be an indicator about the instructor's qualifications.  To an outsider -- nope.  How do you know if that instructor is giving the proper name -- or one he just made up?  It's kind of like all these people getting Asian character tattoos; I wonder how many of them have a tattoo that actually reads something like "mu shu pork"?

And, sometimes, the same movement can legitimately have different names within a system because different versions are using different underlying principles.



> 3) Are the names of the forms/postures important to all Martial arts or just some (why or why not)?



Names are important for communication.  Within a style, you need to have common names, or you can't really discuss it.  (Yep...  You just got the same answer three different ways.)


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## charyuop (Nov 13, 2006)

I think names are important for the continuing of the Art, but it not vital for the student to know them. Some teachers change them according to the need. Since you know Tai Chi I will make you some examples...
My teacher changed most of the names of the form in a way that she things it will help remember the way they are done even to older people.
So "ward off" became "read the book", "single whip" it is "catch the mouse by the tail", "brush knee" is now "up the fence/down the fence", "needle at sea bottom" became "choo-choo train" and so on.
If you ask them the real names (I usually refer to the posture while talking to them with real names) they know them, but they think for older people makes more sense the way they changed them in order to help remember how to do the movement.
Good teachers or not? I think yes, because they were able to adopt the names of the forms in order to help the students. After all in the origin real names were given in order to what the movement looked like so that it was easier to remember. Unfortunately with times changing many of those names really do not help comparing name/movement.


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## Bigshadow (Nov 13, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> 1) Do you think form/posture names are important and why or why not?



Sure it is important that they have names or some sort of identification so that students and teachers know they are talking about the same thing.



Xue Sheng said:


> 2) Do you think knowing or not knowing the form/posture names should be used to judge a teachers ability to teach (why or why not)?



No, not necessarily.  The form/posture names don't make an art.  Typically, it is the movement that makes an art.  If someone knows how to move, but doesn't know all the names but can get their students to move with the proper priniciples, I believe it matters not what he calls it!  On the other hand I find it difficult that someone could get to the skill level to teach and not know any names, they should have knowledge of the names of the most common they use in their training.





Xue Sheng said:


> 3) Are the names of the forms/postures important to all Martial arts or just some (why or why not)?



It is my opinion that forms/posture names are MOST important to those arts that are for "preserving" their art.

Excellent question by the way!


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## Flying Crane (Nov 13, 2006)

Concerning names, check this out.

http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/gallery_longform.html

Sorry, couldn't resist being a smart-***...


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## charyuop (Nov 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Concerning names, check this out.
> 
> http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/gallery_longform.html
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist being a smart-***...


 
That was funny LOL.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2006)

Except of course for those that feel white crane spreads its wings should be called ring-tailed lemur plucks quivering pomegranate  :uhyeah: 

It appears we, or at least those that responded to the post, agree that names are important, whether that be for preservation of the art, tradition or simply being able to converse with other of that art. 

But this has brought me to another question.

What if the teacher changes the names to make them easier to understand or to be more contemporary, does that affect the art or change it for better or worse?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 15, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> But this has brought me to another question.
> 
> What if the teacher changes the names to make them easier to understand or to be more contemporary, does that affect the art or change it for better or worse?


 

That is a very interesting question, and I'll give an example from my Kenpo background.

In Tracy's kenpo, we have a curriculum of several hundred self defense techniques, which are basically prescribed reactions and defenses against specific types of attacks.  There are really too many of them, in my opinion, but I've ranted about that in other threads and I won't rehash that here.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, these techniques were given funny names to help remember them.  I guess remembering a name like _Clawing Panther_ is easier than remembering which defense technique is "Punch Defense Number 73", or something.  So "Punch Defense Number 73" became _Clawing Panther_ (I don't know if _Clawing Panther_ was actually Punch Defense Number 73, I'm just pulling them out of the air as examples to make my point).  These names were decided upon, I believe by Al Tracy and his brothers when they codified and systemetized the curriculum in how they wanted to do and teach the art that they had learned from Ed Parker.

At any rate, some of the names are a little bit awkward, in modern society.  There are names like _Japanese Strangle Hold_; _Chinese Thumb Screw_; _Tibetan Roll_; etc.  Maybe in the 1950s and 1960s these names were acceptable and I think there was probably an attempt to make a connection with the Asian origins of the art, but I think in the modern times they are a little embarrassing and might even be seen as culturally insensitive.  _Chinese Thumb Screw_ sounds like a stereotyped Chinese torture device (it's a defense against a wrist grab, applying pressure to the thumbs).  _Japanese Strangle Hold_ sounds like an assassination technique done by a greasy, sneaking, backally Japanese assassin (it's a defense against a strangle hold from behind you).  _Tibetan Roll_ sounds like something you would order in a Tibetan restaurant, maybe a kind of springroll or something (it is a defense against a push from behind you).  But in short, there is nothing inherently Japanese, Chinese, or Tibetan about them.  Attaching an ethnic name to them could be seen as an outdated and insensitive propagation of old stereotypes.  They sort of portray the culture as barbaric and backwards (_Chinese Thumbscrews_ is my favorite example, I just think of a bunch of little Chinese guys with a long hair braid working in a deep, dark, dank dungeon, torturing Europeans who have fallen into their clutches) and maybe they have become inappropriate to continue to use.  In this kind of case, maybe it makes sense to change the names of techniques.

In the case of Tai Chi Chuan, maybe it makes sense to change the names to something that is more recognizeable to a Westerner.  I think the purpose of the name is to give the mind something recognizable to connect with, in remembering and understanding the movement.  If the name carries no recognition and no context for the practitioner, then it may as well be memorized as "Punch Defense Number 73".  It just becomes an exercise in memorization, and that meaningful connection is lost.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> That is a very interesting question, and I'll give an example from my Kenpo background.
> 
> In Tracy's kenpo, we have a curriculum of several hundred self defense techniques, which are basically prescribed reactions and defenses against specific types of attacks. There are really too many of them, in my opinion, but I've ranted about that in other threads and I won't rehash that here.
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting, I did not know that happened in Tracy Kenpo, but I never trained Kenpo so I shouldnt be surprised. And what you say makes sense and obviously it did not change the art. It may have made it easier to understand and from that point of view I can see where names are important but can be changed if need be. 

But in something like Tai Chi, which is considerably older would it make difference? To be honest I doubt immediately it would, but later Possibly, Im not sure.

For example I now train Sanda and it does come directly from other internal and external CMA styles and if I take Diagonal Flying from Tai Chi and put into Sanda, and it is actually kind of there, it becomes a high forearm strike. Possibly more to the point and more descriptive but by calling it as such does it loose its internal quality or tradition? Once again I honestly do not know but I do know they are executed similarly but different, if that makes sense. 

If I change splitting in Xingyi to palm strike, also pretty much in Sanda, will it effect Xingyi. Once again I doubt it will by next Tuesday but what about 10 years from now. Would it loose its association with the element wood? If so it is really no longer Xingyi since it is very much based on the 5 elements in order to neutralize or attack.


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## jks9199 (Nov 15, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> But this has brought me to another question.
> 
> What if the teacher changes the names to make them easier to understand or to be more contemporary, does that affect the art or change it for better or worse?



If you'll note, I mentioned several times that consistency in names is only important within the system, for the purpose of being able to communicate about the system.  If I'm talking to another student or instructor in my system about the point form (one of our basic forms), we should all be on the same page.  There may be local variations in some parts or in some interpretations -- but the basic form should be the same.  And the lessons contained in that form should be the same, as well.

But if I talk to you about the point form -- you're probably lost.  You don't know, so I'd have to explain or demonstrate it.  And then you'll probably point out that it's similar to one of your own forms...  'cause there really aren't that many ways to move effectively in fighting.

So, if a teacher decides to "modernize" or "update" the names of the moves in Tai Chi, that's their business.  But it'll lead to confusion (which I think already exists, since I think there are different names for some of the moves already!) if they try to talk to other practitioners.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> So, if a teacher decides to "modernize" or "update" the names of the moves in Tai Chi, that's their business. But it'll lead to confusion (which I think already exists, since I think there are different names for some of the moves already!) if they try to talk to other practitioners.


 
If they are traditionally trained the names in Tai Chi are pretty much standard.

But I still have the same question about an art like Xingyi; if you rename the form you can loose connection to the root of the style which is the 5 elements. Without those they are no longer Xingyi so if a teacher changes those to make them easier for a student to remember does that impact the style negatively?

And yes conversations could get very confusing.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Nov 16, 2006)

Depends on what your primary concern is, preserving a styles lineage, or teaching the techniques effectively. Note, I am NOT saying those exclude each other, just that they are different objectives.
If the aim is preserving lineage, then the names are important.
If the aim is teaching the technique itself, then all thats important about the name is thats its understandable, and relates to the technique.
So say for koryu arts, best keep everything preserved exactly,
and for gendai, move with the times.
ABout covers it I figure.


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## charyuop (Nov 16, 2006)

I have just started Aikido and in the first two lessons I have "received" the teaching of many different movements.
The purpose for now is learning to fall and stepping, but also start to learn the appropriate way of receiving a punch or a strike.
Sensei never mentioned a single name of those techniques (probably he will later on), but I am "sponging" them in me anyway, even tho if I have to refer to them just by using a little description instead of the name.

Probably names of postures/techniques make more sense when you have already, I don't wanna use the term master, got a basic knowledge of the movement itself.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Depends on what your primary concern is, preserving a styles lineage, or teaching the techniques effectively. Note, I am NOT saying those exclude each other, just that they are different objectives.
> If the aim is preserving lineage, then the names are important.
> If the aim is teaching the technique itself, then all thats important about the name is thats its understandable, and relates to the technique.
> So say for koryu arts, best keep everything preserved exactly,
> ...


 
This is an interesting point which could mean ok for some put not others.

I still refer back to Xingyi as an example since it is based on the 5 elements. If you use piquan splitting against an attack you can categories as earth it is very effective at over coming the attack. However if you use Piquan against fire you will likely not fair so well. 

If you change the name of Piquan to palm strike and Pauquan (fire) to block punch. It would be more descriptive as to what the form looks like but less descriptive as to what it is for and you loose effectiveness in teaching.  

If you remove the names form Xingyi you remove the elements and you loose Xingyi. But in Sanda I can see little difference if I call it a low palm strike, tree slapper or Billy for that matter.

So is it that the name change is not that big of a deal for some and a very big deal for others? Particularly internal styles such as Bagua, Xingyi, Tai Chi, etc.


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## pstarr (Nov 17, 2006)

The names can be very important because many of them provide an insight as to the true nature of the posture/form.  Most of the names weren't just selected arbitrarily...


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## Shotgun Buddha (Nov 17, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is an interesting point which could mean ok for some put not others.
> 
> I still refer back to Xingyi as an example since it is based on the 5 elements. If you use piquan splitting against an attack you can categories as earth it is very effective at over coming the attack. However if you use Piquan against fire you will likely not fair so well.
> 
> ...


 
I'd say the names would matter mostly for a styles which place any sort of major emphasis on tradition or lineage. Any of the koryu arts in Japan, or alot of Chinese martial arts. In their cases a name is part of their history or legacy, and so has important in itself.
Whereas more modern styles, the name is only really important as a tag for remembering or briefly explaining a move. Nothing more.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

pstarr said:


> The names can be very important because many of them provide an insight as to the true nature of the posture/form. Most of the names weren't just selected arbitrarily...


 
Very true, particularly in the case of many CMA styles. Some of the names are based on metaphors that are very descriptive. 



Shotgun Buddha said:


> I'd say the names would matter mostly for a styles which place any sort of major emphasis on tradition or lineage. Any of the koryu arts in Japan, or alot of Chinese martial arts. In their cases a name is part of their history or legacy, and so has important in itself.
> Whereas more modern styles, the name is only really important as a tag for remembering or briefly explaining a move. Nothing more.


 
I think we agree Xingyi is old as well as very effective and it deceptively simplistic in appearance if you look at it, but it certainly isnt and it takes time to understand how it works and the names are very important for this understanding. Where Sanda is very new, by comparison, effective and certainly not simplistic but possibly more direct when it comes to understanding and the names do not seem to be as important.


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## jks9199 (Nov 18, 2006)

pstarr said:


> The names can be very important because many of them provide an insight as to the true nature of the posture/form.  Most of the names weren't just selected arbitrarily...


But, it's very easy for those meanings to get lost in translation between different languages.  Especially if the person who translated the name isn't idiomatically fluent in one of the languages.


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## pstarr (Nov 24, 2006)

Then I would suggest that he do some studying - perhaps enlist the aid of someone who does speak the language - and find out.  Otherwise, he may miss a very important point regarding the nature of the form.


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## TaiChiTJ (Nov 24, 2006)

I think the way Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux came up with names for their IKCA Karate Connection system is interesting. They did a code system which is as follows: 

Chop = Sword
Defender = Tiger
Attacker = Dragon 
All Kicks = Thunder
Grip or Claw = Talon
Gun or Club = Disaster
Backfist = Serpent's Strike
Roundhouse Punch = Storm
Head Butt or Butt Bunk = Ram
Straight Torque Punch = Lightening
Elbow or Forearm = Devastation
Hammerfist = Hammer

It's kind of a cool idea because once you learn the code you have a sense of what any future technique is going to be about. :ultracool


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 24, 2006)

pstarr said:


> Then I would suggest that he do some studying - perhaps enlist the aid of someone who does speak the language - and find out. Otherwise, he may miss a very important point regarding the nature of the form.


 
Very good and important point. 

My wife was once the translator for Chen Zhenglei and although she does not study Tai Chi she did have a basic understanding of many of the postures since the names where associated with Chinese history, mythology and/or metaphors.


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## pstarr (Nov 24, 2006)

Yes!  A good dexample are the names of the five fundamental postures of Xingyi, for instance.  These are sometimes mistranslated and frequently misunderstood.  The same is true of Taiji - sometimes taking the characters that form the name of the posture or form and breaking them down into their separate radicals (as possible) is helpful-


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 25, 2006)

pstarr said:


> Yes! A good dexample are the names of the five fundamental postures of Xingyi, for instance. These are sometimes mistranslated and frequently misunderstood. The same is true of Taiji - sometimes taking the characters that form the name of the posture or form and breaking them down into their separate radicals (as possible) is helpful-


 
This is true, I was once trying to get some Xingyi VCDs from China via my sister-in-law (via e-mail and phone call) and due to an error in the character I ended up with Yiquan VCDs instead. It was a very bad mistake on my part. 

And this is very true the postures are often misunderstood in Xingyi, I have was guilty of that myself in the beginning, but if you continue to seriously study you will eventually get to the right meaning and at least some understanding.

As to Tai Chi I have heard an awful lot of very bad posture names over the years that came form bad translation or Americanization of the postures themselves.


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## pstarr (Nov 27, 2006)

Even a number of errors can be found in various translations of the "Taiji Classics" and similar texts-


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## Flying Crane (Nov 27, 2006)

TaiChiTJ said:


> I think the way Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux came up with names for their IKCA Karate Connection system is interesting. They did a code system which is as follows:
> 
> Chop = Sword
> Defender = Tiger
> ...


 
This is kind of a common theme in the kenpo arts.  I believe Mr. Parker also codified the names in similar ways, to give clues to the type of defense and whatnot.  I think Tracy's kenpo names are a bit more random.

However, this is very different from the names used in the Chinese arts.  The Chinese names tend often to hint at the quality and intent of the movement, deeper than the movement itself.  While the names used in Kenpo indicate WHAT the movement is, the names used in Chinese arts tend to go beyond that an suggest HOW the movement is used.


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