# Who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years?



## Old Fat Kenpoka

OK, enough arguing about the past.  Let's look to the future!  Who do you think will have the greatest impact on Kenpo over the next 10 years?  I've listed a few of today's many prominent Kenpoists.  Please vote and comment about who and why.


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## JD_Nelson

Interesting topic.  


Let the flames begin!!

JD


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## Touch Of Death

You might as well have asked whom our instructor is. My instructor is Professor Other (Ha Ha) and I really can't comment on the teachings of others. However, Paul Mills would be my choice, (only through listening to my instructor rave about him)but before I qualified my statement I chose Other.
Sean


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## Brother John

Mr. Mills and the AKKI (of which, it should be noted, I am a member) are really shaking things up and doing some great work! Am I biased? Could be, but I still think it's true. If anyone knew the rate at which Mr. Mills and those privaleged to assist him, are making up-grades/inovations and putting out thousands of hours of instruction in same every year...I'd think they'd be amazed and be persuaded to agree with me.
It's very impressive.
I'm persuaded to be in the AKKI because of what I know/believe about them and it's leadership (Paul Mills)... I don't 'believe' in them because I am one of them. Make sense??
hope so...
There's lots of great names in the broader world of Kenpo, no doubt. Those listed above are all doing fine stuff! But for my vote it's gotta be Mr. Mills!
Your Brother
John

PS: Though JD Nelson is probably correct and there will be detractors and even flamers, I hope we can all stay above that and keep it positive...know that we are all just posting our opinions.


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## Brian Jones

I agree, I think Paul Mills will continue to have a great impact on American Kenpo.  He stays true to teh Kenpo concepts principles etc., yet is constantly looking to new ways to innovate and keep Kenpo from becoming static or stale.
  Of course that's just my opinion.  That being said I also think its really difficult to    say who will have the greatest impact.  For one we all tend to be a bit partisan, and there is nothing wrong with that.  Secondly we need to knwo what type of "impact" are we talking about?  Change and innovation, promoting the art, keeping things the way they were before Mr. Parker died etc.  
  Another interesting question is that who do we see becmoing the leaders of Kenpo beyond the seniors and 1st generation students?

Brian Jones


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## Les

This is certainly going to be a controversial thread, but lets look at this logically....

Mr Parker was an innovator, always improving and updating his Kenpo system, and encouraging others to do the same.

Sadly, he's no longer with us, but he left us the Kenpo.

The question is, who is actually innovating and updating their Kenpo now?

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but if you're still teaching and/or learning the Kenpo you were doing in 1990, why are you freewheeling? 

My vote went to Mr Paul Mills, who always finds the time to help students whenever possible, but I'd like to mention a few people who most of you probably won't have heard of:

Mr Richard Matthews, 5th Degree Black, of Jersey, Channel Islands, Europe

Mr Gary Ellis, 7th Degree Black, of England, Europe

Mr Ingmar Johansson, 4th Degree Black, of Sweden, Europe


Les


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## Shiatsu

I agree with the Paul Mills vote.

However I think a lot of the seniors wouldn't.  Well one off of the top of my head that I have spoke to.


But either way, I like the way he is taking things with the weapons curriculum, and even some grappling techniques.  I have not seen a bad AKKI black belt yet.


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## Les

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *I agree with the Paul Mills vote.
> 
> However I think a lot of the seniors wouldn't.  *



You're probably right there, but even with the 'seniors' opinions will differ I guess.

Skip Hancock, in his book 'Mastering Kenpo; The Path to Excellence' uses the phrase "Paul Mills, who I admire most in the world of Kenpo"

He also mentions Mike Pick, Sandy Sandoval, and Frank Trejo.

Les


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## Shiatsu

I know what you are saying.  Opinions are like A-holes everyone has one.  But I like what Paul Mills is doing with the art.  I also like Docs work.

But who really cares what others think.  Do what works for you.  That is all that really matters in the end anyway.

Obviously Mr. Mills is doing something right, becuase I have yet to see a black belt of his that I wasn't impressed with.

Well one, but oh well, that is moot.

He has some great instructors and students in his system.

I also like the way that Sigung LaBounty does things.


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## jfarnsworth

Shew! This topic could really get heated up quickly. I do agree however people will be biased towards their own instructors especially if we all haven't met each name on the list plus the ones that are not on this list.:asian:


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## Shiatsu

Yup, this probably opened a can of worms.


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## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Yup, this probably opened a can of worms. *





> Shew! This topic could really get heated up quickly.


I know that you are probably right about the can O' worms, but it hasn't gotten so heated yet I don't think.
It really doesn't have to. It's no secret that there's lots of partisan-ship in the Kenpo world. It doesn't surprise me at all that some seniors feel one way or the other about Mr. Mills, or any other high ranking 1st gen student. Some of the most credible, high-ranking students or Mr. Parker's are 'disaproved of' by other credible, high-ranking students of Mr. Parker. This will probably go on for a while; wish it wasn't like that really. Unfortunate.
Politics is the cancern in the veins of Kenpodom. We students of the 1st gens can either make it worse... or begin healing it. The ball is kinda in our court that way.

Your Brother
John


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## MJS

I am not a student of Mr. Mills, but my vote goes to him.  IMO, he, from what I've seen and read, has done alot for the art.  Seems to me that hes improved many of the techs., and has really dug into the weapons aspect as well as the ground fighting!  

Mike


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## hector

My vote is for Larry Tatum. I have many reasons but I don't want to hurt susceptibilities and to derive in the eternal discussion of these forums of who is better. He knows my reasons and with that I have enough.     

I wanted to deepen the topic in the sense of understanding that the responsibility doesn't only in one person, but rather it is a task of all those that practice kenpo, independent of the degree ,asociación, teacher, country.   
We are positive agents of innovation and change, in the measure that we expand our knowledge, develop the mind and the spirit, strengthen our culture and education and finally if we are able to understand the wisdom and teachings of our Teachers, we will understand that we are part of a process and that sooner or later we will have to assume a protagonism in the continuity of the Art.

Hector


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread above the belt. 

I would like to hear a little more about WHY people think a particular person will have the most impact.

For instance, do those who think Paul Mills will be most impactful believe it is because he is adding new concepts and techniques and revising the curriculum?

Do those who voted for John Sepulveda believe it is because he is doing such great outreach and because he is incorporating grappling and kickboxing into training methods without altering the Kenpo curriculum?

Do those who voted for Larry Tatum believe it is because he is providing the deepest insights into the Kenpo Mr. Parker had devloped as of the 1980's?

I'd really love to hear more of the whys?  Thank you.


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## MJS

I voted for Mr. Mills because I feel that he is probably one of the more open minded Kenpo Inst. out there.  He is always looking for ways to better the art, and keep it moving forward.  He has taken some of the techs. as I said, and refined them, making them better.  Hes focused alot on weapons, which IMO is very important.  The stick and knife seem to be something that hes done alot with.  And, hes also brought the ground work into the art.  IMO, he is really offering a complete package.  

Again, let me say, that I am not a student of him.  I'm going on what I've discovered.  I'm sure someone like Bro, John, who is a student in the AKKI, would be able to give a much more detailed description.

Mike


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## Brother John

The several reasons I voted for Mr. Mills: 
1.	The quality of the information and insights that he gives out. In attending the Biannual Vegas Camp (not nearly enough I might add) Ive seen first hand the insights and quality instruction not only from Mr. Mills but from each of his students.  

2.	The innovations and alterations of the Kenpo 
curriculum. I wont go into a great deal of detail on this (unless you e-mail me, then I might let you know my thoughts on it) but suffice it to say that what little bit of Mr. Mills vision that Ive been exposed to and can comprehendits fascinating. Its this kind of logic, pragmatism and ingenuity that attracted me to American Kenpo in the first place; and Ive not seen it in such quantity nor quality anywhere but in Mr. Mills and those who lead the AKKI. 

3.	The excellent club and knife work!!! If youve not experienced a Mills knife or club seminar, you are missing something! Hes incredible with either weapon! Whats more, he can pass that quality and knowledge on to those who will listen and work at it; its evident in what they can do as well. 

4.	The proficiency of those who have come to him for instruction. This is one of the biggest things to draw me into the AKKI. Ive met many excellent practitioners of the martial arts, masterful in knowledge and skill. The ability to cultivate that kind of excellence and proficiency is rare, the ability to engender it in othersthats very rare. In attending the Vegas camps I was blown away at the vast number of people that can impress me with their ability! Not just Mr. Mills and his direct students, but even two three generations down the line from Mr. Mills. The storys been told to me that the people who initially came to Mr. Mills and wanted to form the AKKI did so because they simply told him I want to move like that and be able to do what you do.and hes doing it for them. Grandmaster Mills is having a huge impact on the students in his association, from his first generation students on down. 

5.	Did I mention the new weapons material?? New sets w/ weapons, techs for weapons, forms w/weapons, drills w/weapons its very very good.

6.	Ground-fighting. In all actuality its even more than just ground fighting, there are very good choking techniques being incorporated too. 
New tools for teaching. Hard to explain but stuff like the timing patterns and rhythmic phrasing and other such concepts that Mr. Mills has incorporated into our Kenpo experience to bring on greater proficiency sooner. It really works. Theres a plethora of other principles and concepts and such that Mr. Mills has defined that help us a great deal as well. Check this out for a bit more info on this: http://www.akki.com/articles/akkiconcepts.htm

7.	Good leadership. If you join, you are family. Mr. Mills tends to give and give of himself to an incredible extent it seems. Anyone can call him on the phone or e-mail him and get his undivided attention when its needed. I recall needing his input/advice on some stuff a couple of times and spending a LONG time on the phone talking and even just rapping with him, and Im just a little old no-body from Kansas, but while I had his ear he made me feel very important and like he was eager to benefit me in anyway he could. (Kinda cool when the last thing a man says to you before getting to the OKtake care, goodbye part of a phone call is What else can I do for ya?) 

8.	The association has a good structure and open lines of communication. I cant tell you how many times Ive called a regional rep for advice/pointers or some such thing and come away from it with  much more than I bargained for! 

Anywayno secret that this is a big Rah-rah-rahfor my team sort of post; but its good to express your thanks for those that you appreciate and have helped you out. Mr. Mills and the AKKI in general has for me and if they can for me, who is the least in the association, then imagine what they can do and in fact Do for those even more active and a part of it all than I. Thats why Grandmaster Mills has my vote for the Who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years? Poll. 

Your Brother
John


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## SThiess

Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Yeah Sven, there is a lot of ego in Kenpo.  But if you think that Martial Arts and martial artists exist or are supposed to exist in some Buddhist-Monastery-sublimated-ego-Qui-Chang-Cane-Nirvana...well then you yourself must be living in some kind of 1970's style state of altered consciousness.  

Kenpo is not a branch of Buddhism, Shintoism, or Taoism, and ego sublimation is not necessarily a requirement for an effective or interesting martial art.  And, the Martial Spirit can manifest itself in many ways -- becoming a selfless monk is one of the least valuable in terms of mastering or progressing a martial art.  

Given that, there are those in Kenpo who believe that they are doing the right thing for Kenpo.  And there are others who also believe that some Kenpoists are doing the right things for Kenpo.  

I'd like to know who everyone thinks is making a difference and why.  If you don't think anyone is doing anything good because they are wrapped up in themselves, then you should just quit Kenpo and start doing something else.


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## Les

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above *



That's a very grandiose and sweeping statement.

What did you base it on?

Have you met and spent time with all (or any) of the suggested candidates, so as to form an objective opinion?

Sure, some of these people have a big ego, but all of them have delivered their Kenpo and earned their reputation.

Personally, I don't see how having an ego prevents them from having an impact on Kenpo, so I'm missing your point.

We weren't asked to vote on their personalities, but on their potential to shape the future of Kenpo.

Les.

PS
On the subject of ego's, why wasn't MY name mentioned?


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## Brother John

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above *


I agree with Les.
You tell me which one of these people is unable to 'make progress' or impact the future of Kenpo due to their ego?
How do you know this? Which, if any, do you know personally enough to judge their character?
This isn't an empty 'challenge', but real questions. What is the evidence of this suposed overabundance of 'ego' that you speak of?

Sven, I'm sure your intentions are good, but this is the first really negative post... the rest were pretty positive I think. Too bad. Maybe we can get back on track.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Les _
> *On the subject of ego's, why wasn't MY name mentioned?   *



Oh Les, You're so vain...
You brobably think this post is about you...
:rofl: 
Your Brother
John


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above *


I'm fine with your none of the above statment, but If you would Please offer your choice of MWE (you know Master without Ego). To be fair I originaly chose my own instructor, but I changed it to Paul Mills because that is whom my instructor admires most.


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## Ceicei

Well, I haven't voted.  I would like to say that I know more about each of them than in name only....

I'll definitely have to start going out to more seminars and meet these people.  Unfortunately, I won't be going to enough seminars soon to make a concrete judgment for this poll.

Why don't all of you tell us the strong points of each of them, what makes them to be of value as a leader, then perhaps I will be able to cast a better vote?

- Ceicei


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## Les

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *Well, I haven't voted.  I would like to say that I know more about each of them than in name only....
> 
> I'll definitely have to start going out to more seminars and meet these people.  Unfortunately, I won't be going to enough seminars soon to make a concrete judgment for this poll.
> 
> Why don't all of you tell us the strong points of each of them, what makes them to be of value as a leader, then perhaps I will be able to cast a better vote?
> 
> - Ceicei *



Now HERE is an attitude I wholeheartedly respect.

Ceicei, I salute you.

Les


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## jfarnsworth

I've only been around 3 kenpo insturctors in my measly 9 years in Kenpo.  All 3 will have me back at seminars as long as I can afford them.  Those 3 include Mr. Planas, Mr. Wedlake, and Mr. Conatser.  I learn plently from each of these individuals so therefore I can not make a comment about the others on the list 'cause I don't know enough about them.

However I can say that I would like to attend seminars from the following people.

Dr. Chapel
Mr. White
Mr. Labounty
Mr. Trejo
Mr. Hancock
:asian:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I've only been around 3 kenpo insturctors in my measly 9 years in Kenpo.  All 3 will have me back at seminars as long as I can afford them.  Those 3 include Mr. Planas, Mr. Wedlake, and Mr. Conatser.  I learn plently from each of these individuals so therefore I can not make a comment about the others on the list 'cause I don't know enough about them.
> 
> However I can say that I would like to attend seminars from the following people.
> 
> Dr. Chapel
> Mr. White
> Mr. Labounty
> Mr. Trejo
> Mr. Hancock
> :asian: *



How come I ain't on that list?


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## howardr

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I would like to hear a little more about WHY people think a particular person will have the most impact.
> 
> I'd really love to hear more of the whys?  Thank you. *



Somebody else: Dr. Chapel

I'm not entirely sure that my response to this poll is accurate because Dr. Chapel doesn't expend a lot of energy spreading his approach.  I guess my vote would be more along the lines of, "Who _should_ or who _would you like to see_ impact EPAK in the next 10 years?"

Briefly _some_ of my reasons (in no particular order):
1. Excellent training methodology: realistic (unlike I've seen elsewhere)
2. IMO superior content: anatomically correct basics, non-pain reliant techniques, non-blunt force trauma reliant techniques, etc.
3. Deals realistically with grappling situations both in the initial assault and during the progression of the encounter
4. Formalized instruction (on the university model) by excellent instructors
5. Detailed written material. Oh, and did I say DETAILED written material?
6. His material includes the psychological aspect of self-defense situations. Vital but often neglected or cliched.
7. His entire approach is one of the only ones that I am aware of that is designed to be consistent with the expectations and reality of our legal system. This one is sadly neglected, entirely or just plain flouted in many other schools. And that's just begging for criminal and civil penalties (not to mention moral culpability).
8. As you get better less is more, more or less. I.e., the better you get the fewer strikes are necessary to extricate yourself from self-defense situations.
9. A whole science of alignments for yourself and misalignments to use against your aggressor. The alignments make you dramatically more powerful and rooted (while remaining just as fast or faster). The misalignments weaken your opponent, break him down, immobilize him.  Once you can start to "see" these alignment/misalignment opportunities then IMO workable, spontaneous application and correction in the middle of an encounter against a resisting opponent is achievable. And isn't that the goal (or at least one of THE goals)?
10. Techniques, in their "ideal" stage, are designed to handle a wide range (within anatomically given limits) of assaults. I.e., techniques can actually work because the initial response is based upon a fairly small set of natural, instinctive, biomechanically correct reactions consistent with the inherent and automatic "startle" reflex. Therefore, given the appropriate training regimen one can eventually respond to non-scripted attacks with technique-like defenses. And, one also starts to realize that street attacks, in many instances, aren't really as unscripted as you might have previously thought (see The Psychology of Confrontation, The Gift of Fear).
11. Realistic attacks that are specifically delineated. Grabs are grabs, holds are holds, hugs are hugs, and attempts are attempts. And there is a BIG difference.
12. Oh, and he's funny too.   (see that helps when you're getting banged up!)

Well, I guess that wasn't too brief, but that's my "why" off the top of my head.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above *



I could name a few other arts where the "ego" is just as bad.  Looking at your profile, I notice that you also do Kenpo.  Question for you.  Does your Inst. have an ego?  

Mike


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## Michael Billings

First, I am not sure that the premise is correct, specifically, will "American Kenpo" be affected by any one individual, or will the system as a whole, continue to fragment with various lineages now starting to go their own way, under their own Seniors?  The Kenpo Fantasy of one person, or one Kenpo are realistically, probably a thing of the past ... if in fact there ever was one Kenpo (we all know better), but we can get closer with one Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate or American Kenpo.  

I have been fortunate enough to have trained, either at camps or seminars, with 7 of the 9 instructors listed, (interesting number if you are a Star Trek fan), and see them all as going slightly different places, with slighly different paths.  

I am glad someone broght Dr. Chapel in, although his model of Kenpo tends to be more rigourous and scholastically framed, it still THUMPS, and is a variant of American Kenpo.  Some of the Seniors mentioned HAVE made their mark and influenced the course of American Kenpo.  I am not sure they are intending, or still trying to have more of an influence on Kenpo today.  They have found their niche and are happy there, continuing to grow and study where they are.  Some are more actively trying to build their organizations.  

In either case, I do not see any ONE man as having more of an influence in an arena which has so many different directions it can go.  So of course we advocate for our instructor, or favorite person, but what Sigung LaBounty has done to bring his lineage to where it is, may not be at all where Paul Mills has been and is going with his group, as v. Mike Pick and his lineage, or Larry Tatum and his.

Interesting question, but part of a Kenpo Fantasy of one unified, or semi-unified American Kenpo ... not going to happen.  But that does not make it bad, just diversified and rich in the type and variety of instruction you can get.

Just my thoughts,
-Michael


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## SThiess

> _Originally posted by Les _
> *That's a very grandiose and sweeping statement.
> 
> What did you base it on?
> 
> Have you met and spent time with all (or any) of the suggested candidates, so as to form an objective opinion?
> 
> Sure, some of these people have a big ego, but all of them have delivered their Kenpo and earned their reputation.
> 
> Personally, I don't see how having an ego prevents them from having an impact on Kenpo, so I'm missing your point.
> 
> We weren't asked to vote on their personalities, but on their potential to shape the future of Kenpo.
> 
> Les.
> 
> PS
> 
> Here we go again. I dropped this line on purpose to see what happens. And it is interesting how far readers really try to understand it. But anyway that would be a whole new topic.
> It is not only about the people that have been listed above most of the times it is also about the people that surround them. I have met almost all of them listed above. To me the most impressive one was Sigung Steve La Bounty, but that is my personal choice. And you are right we are not voting on their personalities but it is their personalities that shapes their art and so the future of Kenpo*


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## SThiess

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Yeah Sven, there is a lot of ego in Kenpo.  But if you think that Martial Arts and martial artists exist or are supposed to exist in some Buddhist-Monastery-sublimated-ego-Qui-Chang-Cane-Nirvana...well then you yourself must be living in some kind of 1970's style state of altered consciousness.
> 
> It is interesting how you go of on this topic and how much you really know. Pretty narrow minded way of thinking if I might say. Do you always have only BLACK and WHITE in your life. And by the way a higher consciousness has never hurt anyone. And why sould I quite Kenpo, just because everyone does Kenpo "that" way does not mean that I have to do it too. And that is what I am doing.*


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## SThiess

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I agree with Les.
> You tell me which one of these people is unable to 'make progress' or impact the future of Kenpo due to their ego?
> How do you know this? Which, if any, do you know personally enough to judge their character?
> This isn't an empty 'challenge', but real questions. What is the evidence of this suposed overabundance of 'ego' that you speak of?
> 
> Sven, I'm sure your intentions are good, but this is the first really negative post... the rest were pretty positive I think. Too bad. Maybe we can get back on track.
> 
> Your Brother
> John *



Again as I said earlier John, you read what you want to read. I never denied anyone listed above their reputation or put down what they have done for Kenpo. And I never judged them. Look closly at my statement. And what about the statement NONE of the ABOVE is negative John ? It is what it is, not more not less. My personal opinion. If you make it to yours, analyze and judge it, then you make it negative. I didn't. You see what you want to see.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread above the belt.*


* 

I can see that this lasted for all of a few days.

Mike*


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## SThiess

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I'm fine with your none of the above statment, but If you would Please offer your choice of MWE (you know Master without Ego). To be fair I originaly chose my own instructor, but I changed it to Paul Mills because that is whom my instructor admires most. *




I do not have a choice of one of your so called MWE (that's a good one by the way). I could say my instructor, but he wouldn't like to hear that. So I leave it as it is.:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Well, so where do we go now?

Shall we...sling mud at each other...or discuss who is going to impact Kenpo and why...?

I say let's sling mud!  Kenpoists are all a bunch of fat egotistical cub scouts who can't recite their concepts and principles fast enough to save themselves against a former high-school grappler in a real street fight.

Now!  Name a Kenpo instructor walks the walk and teaches others how to do so as well and tell my why you like 'em!


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## SThiess

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *I could name a few other arts where the "ego" is just as bad.  Looking at your profile, I notice that you also do Kenpo.  Question for you.  Does your Inst. have an ego?
> 
> Mike *



I would say he does, although I would say it is very very small (a. But you know the best thing, he does not even know. And to me that is the most impressive lesson that I learn from him every time I see him and we are together working out.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Les
> 
> Personally, I don't see how having an ego prevents them from having an impact on Kenpo, so I'm missing your point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe I can clarify this.  There are some people who think that there Inst. is God!  Now, is this a bad thing, to not be proud of your Inst.?  Absolutely not.  However, being proud is one thing.  Being arrogant, thinking that your Inst. knows more than anyone else, and even thinking that just because this person is your Inst. that you know more than anyone else, well that IMO, is a prime example of an ego.
> 
> Mike*


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Well, so where do we go now?
> 
> Shall we...sling mud at each other...or discuss who is going to impact Kenpo and why...?
> 
> I say let's sling mud!  Kenpoists are all a bunch of fat egotistical cub scouts who can't recite their concepts and principles fast enough to save themselves against a former high-school grappler in a real street fight.
> 
> Now!  Name a Kenpo instructor walks the walk and teaches others how to do so as well and tell my why you like 'em! *



OMG--OFK, yeah I'd have to say that this will definately get the mud slinging!!  Fun, Fun, Fun:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Mike


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## Marcus Buonfiglio

I believe that Michael Pick will impact Kenpo the most in the next 10 years and here is why.  Unless I am mistaken he currently has the largest student base. There are 1500 students and growing just in his Kenpo Combatives Program with the military. This is non inclusive of the UKF's student base. The feed back from the combat arena continues to refine his understanding of application and the combat filter that he sees Kenpo through necessitates eliminating theory and building on principal. His understanding of blade application is without peer in the world of Kenpo. He neither perpetuates nor incorporates other systems into his Kenpo and does not cross train. He does however have a very good understanding of the other systems and the principles that they perpetuate. A necessity in understand how to best defeat them is to know what you are up against. Because of the successes of his program with U.S. Army Special Forces he has come to the attention of other branches of the military. His goal is to have Kenpo be the Combative Art for all of our fighting forces. Not only will this have impact on Kenpo in general but will bring world attention to the Combat effectiveness of this art. I think that that is some impact.  

Marcus Buonfiglio


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## True2Kenpo

Fellow Kenpoists,

As I look at the question posed in this particular discussion and also the responses being made it is interesting and only obvious that no one person will impact Kenpo more than another...  they will just impact it in a different way.  

We, as students, looking at these individuals will respond according to what benefits we are seeking and if one individual is meeting them or not.  

As for my vote, I voted for Mr. Planas because he is my instructor and his method of training is the training I desire.

There are so many great Kenpo instructors out there contributing, lets celebrate them all.

Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
IKKA
UPK Pittsburgh


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio _
> *I believe that Michael Pick will impact Kenpo the most in the next 10 years and here is why.  Unless I am mistaken he currently has the largest student base. There are 1500 students and growing just in his Kenpo Combatives Program with the military. This is non inclusive of the UKF's student base. The feed back from the combat arena continues to refine his understanding of application and the combat filter that he sees Kenpo through necessitates eliminating theory and building on principal. His understanding of blade application is without peer in the world of Kenpo. He neither perpetuates nor incorporates other systems into his Kenpo and does not cross train. He does however have a very good understanding of the other systems and the principles that they perpetuate. A necessity in understand how to best defeat them is to know what you are up against. Because of the successes of his program with U.S. Army Special Forces he has come to the attention of other branches of the military. His goal is to have Kenpo be the Combative Art for all of our fighting forces. Not only will this have impact on Kenpo in general but will bring world attention to the Combat effectiveness of this art. I think that that is some impact.
> 
> Marcus Buonfiglio *


 I hope not to catch to much hell for my opinion but here it goes. First of all, yes Mr. Pick does cross train. His nephew was showing me all kinds of crazy hand positionings and stuff that they are into these days. He named the japanese system that it was from but I forget. Secondly Mr. Pick is a big guy and he teaches a big guys art. Mr. Mills on the other hand stresses a proper method of execution for those of any size. I recognize Mr. Picks importance to the art; however his lesson has already been taught. Its a good lesson mind you, but not nescessarily new. Mr. Mills' is really showing us how to move like Mr. Pick or Mr. Parker. Its really a step by step procsess that anyone can learn where as practitioners are generaly left to there own devices under the other "Masters". 
Sean


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## MisterMike

How do we decide what an impact is? Does it reflect their contributions to the art, number of students below him/her, how far does the person's teaching reach?

Why 10 years? I'm curious who has had the biggest impact, who's forging ahead now, and who the up-and-comers are.

I've met Mr. Planas, Wedlake and Pick and some other movie guys. Yea, even the movie guys have some sort of impact according to my last paragraph. They get the word out.

Some write books, make videos, travel the seminar circuit. I think anyone active outside their school and lineage is making an impact. They're passing on the art and their insights.

I won't say which "one" only because I've studied Kenpo and feel it would only look biased, but ask a non-Kenpo person what they think. OK, I won't pick one, but the above mentioned (by name)are at the top of my list.

Since I've come to MT, I see there are some good up-and-comers on this board. When the first generation Kenpoists pass on, I think the art is going to be in some good hands.


----------



## Sworn_Enemy

> First of all, yes Mr. Pick does cross train. His nephew was showing me all kinds of crazy hand positionings and stuff that they are into these days. He named the japanese system that it was from but I forget



That would be news to me and to every other UKF member I know.  I've never heard of any of these strange hand positionings you mention.  Last time I trained with Mr. Pick which was a few months ago I destinctly remeber him saying he has never ventured outside the scope of Kenpo and never needed to.



> Secondly Mr. Pick is a big guy and he teaches a big guys art.



That's just not true at all.  I'm 5'6", 150lbs and I have absolutely no problems making it work.  And I'm the smallest guy in my school.  Everyone makes it out like Mr. Pick is this huge guy.  He's incredibly strong, hits like a truck, but he's not that big.  



> however his lesson has already been taught. Its a good lesson mind you, but not nescessarily new



What lesson would that be?  I look forward to continuing this conversation.

-Tom Chase
UKF 
Northeast R.T.C.


----------



## Marcus Buonfiglio

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I hope not to catch to much hell for my opinion but here it goes. First of all, yes Mr. Pick does cross train. His nephew was showing me all kinds of crazy hand positionings and stuff that they are into these days. He named the japanese system that it was from but I forget. Secondly Mr. Pick is a big guy and he teaches a big guys art. Mr. Mills on the other hand stresses a proper method of execution for those of any size. I recognize Mr. Picks importance to the art; however his lesson has already been taught. Its a good lesson mind you, but not nescessarily new. Mr. Mills' is really showing us how to move like Mr. Pick or Mr. Parker. Its really a step by step procsess that anyone can learn where as practitioners are generaly left to there own devices under the other "Masters".
> Sean *



Greetings Sean. 
Don't worry about catching hell. At least not from this corner. To address a few misconceptions. I emphatically state and reinterate that you are incorrect concerning his crosstraining. I have been a student of his for many years now. He and I have discussed this subject at length and he has clearly stated his dislike for crosstraining. I have never seen any evidence of what you state.  We don't have any weird hand positioning. Simply 12 points which for lack of time is similar to how a boxer would hold his hands (slightly modified).  I don't know which nephew you speak of but if he is showing you something goofy it certainly isn't Picks material. I will ask him if he is teaching any of his nephews as I am not aware that he is. Mr Pick is not a big guy. He is broad at the shoulders, slightly barrel chested, thick limbed, but only 5'8'' in height. I am 5'8 1/2" and am slightly taller than him. Not quite sure what you mean by "big guys art" One of my kid students (12 years old) nearly knocked me out going only 1/2 power and I had to tell him that it is time to lighten up his strikes. Granted he is 5'6" and an athlete but hardly what I would call big. Very presumptuas of you to say that his lessons have already been taught when you have never had a lesson with him or his ranking belts. I disagree with that statement.  As far as Mr. Mills is concerned I have nothing but good things to say about him. He is fast, articulate, accurate, progressive, and has a fantastic organization in the AKKI that is respected by a lot of Kenpo organazations including the UKF. Mr. Mills however is not teaching you to move like Mr. Pick. He is teaching you to move like Mr. Mills which is not a bad thing mind you. I answered the original question of who I think will have the most impact in the next ten years.  In reading the various responces it is gratifying to see the loyalty to various instructors. If you take the workof all of these extraordinary gentlemen and look at the sum of all their efforts the impact is huge indeed.


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Sworn_Enemy _
> *That would be news to me and to every other UKF member I know.  I've never heard of any of these strange hand positionings you mention.  Last time I trained with Mr. Pick which was a few months ago I destinctly remeber him saying he has never ventured outside the scope of Kenpo and never needed to.
> 
> 
> 
> That's just not true at all.  I'm 5'6", 150lbs and I have absolutely no problems making it work.  And I'm the smallest guy in my school.  Everyone makes it out like Mr. Pick is this huge guy.  He's incredibly strong, hits like a truck, but he's not that big.
> 
> 
> 
> What lesson would that be?  I look forward to continuing this conversation.
> 
> -Tom Chase
> UKF
> Northeast R.T.C. *


 I don't know his nephew could have been pulling my leg, but I doubt it. What I mean by hand positionings is the same some ninjitsu guys do where they are crossing fingers in certain paterns for symbolic meanings. I believe its from his study with the sword. Whatever it is he has taught his brother-in-law and of course his nephew. I havn't seen either of them in years so I may sound like I'm making it up, but this ten  or twelve year old was training at the school where I was training for a while, and was going on and on about it. As far as the lesson Mr. Pick teaches, I will say he is a very feel to believe sort of teacher, and after a lesson, most people will say "man, I have never been hit that hard."; however, I feel Paul Mills is more likely to get us to that point. Don't try telling me a black smith isn't strong, and I'll wager everyone on this board will claim there instructor taught them to make the art work.(more later)
Sean


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio _
> He does however have a very good understanding of the other systems and the principles that they perpetuate. A necessity in understand how to best defeat them is to know what you are up against.



How could someone have a good understanding of a system if they have never spent any time in it?  I would think that there would be more to understanding a system besides just watching or reading about what they do.  I would think that having some experience in the art would give the best understanding.

For example, take BJJ.  Someone could watch a triangle choke being applied.  Does that mean that just by watching it be applied, that you will understand whats happening?  Of course not.  You need to get in there and do it to understand it.

Mike


----------



## Nick Ellerton

Hello all.

I dont really think it can be one person to whom can make a single impact on EPAK because as we are all well aware there are the various systems of the art. Each System has been modified to suit each of these elite instructors satisfaction. But as far as an impact is concerned each and every single person to whom wears a kenpo uniform is making an impact because they are doing what is important and that is keeping the art alive. Because saddly, like the late Mr Parker once things perish they never come back, so by all of us wearing a kenpo uniform it is us not just one person that is going to make an inpact it is everyone within the art. But without the imput of these instructors the art would not be as strong as it is today so they all have an extremely positive impact on the art. but it is all of those involved that makes it what it is.


----------



## pete

The person who CAN impact EPAK in the next 10 years is Ed Parker Jr.  Whether he will or will not will depend on what develops over the next year or two...


----------



## MJS

Looking at the stats on the poll, I can see there have been alot of changes.  Very interesting!!

Mike


----------



## Marcus Buonfiglio

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *How could someone have a good understanding of a system if they have never spent any time in it?  I would think that there would be more to understanding a system besides just watching or reading about what they do.  I would think that having some experience in the art would give the best understanding.
> 
> For example, take BJJ.  Someone could watch a triangle choke being applied.  Does that mean that just by watching it be applied, that you will understand whats happening?  Of course not.  You need to get in there and do it to understand it.
> 
> Mike *



You make a good point Mike and I agree. You can also say that having a lot of experience against an art gives you a good understanding of it.  Although Mr. Pick hasn't trained as a student in any other system he has worked extensively against others who are highly trained in other disciplines. As examples I will use FMA knife and BJJ. These disciplines are prevalent in the military personal that he trains. On a regular basis he is challenged by these solders looking to test their metal against what he teaches. I have been witness to him working with trained UFC fighters countering what they were attempting and taking it to the simulated kill. I have been witness to him working freeform with trained FMA knife combatants and dominating their attack also taking it to the simulated kill. To become proficient at implementing another discipline requires extensive training at that discipline but in my opinion, the key to defeating it is understanding its core principles. Thank you for the dialogue.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio _
> *You make a good point Mike and I agree. You can also say that having a lot of experience against an art gives you a good understanding of it.  Although Mr. Pick hasn't trained as a student in any other system he has worked extensively against others who are highly trained in other disciplines. As examples I will use FMA knife and BJJ. These disciplines are prevalent in the military personal that he trains. On a regular basis he is challenged by these solders looking to test their metal against what he teaches. I have been witness to him working with trained UFC fighters countering what they were attempting and taking it to the simulated kill. I have been witness to him working freeform with trained FMA knife combatants and dominating their attack also taking it to the simulated kill. To become proficient at implementing another discipline requires extensive training at that discipline but in my opinion, the key to defeating it is understanding its core principles. Thank you for the dialogue. *



You are welcome, and thank you for going further with your explaination!:asian: 

I do not know Mr. Pick, anything about his training, etc. but now that you explain that he has worked with people from those various arts, I understand where you're coming from.  

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I've read several comments on why people are voting for Mills, Pick, & Planas...

But the most votes so far are going to Tatum and Sepulveda and nobody has commented on why?  Why do people think either of these two will impact the most?  Just curious...


----------



## Michael Billings

I voted for Mr. Sepulveda because of his integrity and commitment to: first, his students; and second, the value he places on TRAINING - hence the name American Kenpo Training System (AKTS).

His newly formed organization, the AKTS, I see as being unique and attractive to Kenpoist world-wide, due primarily to Mr. Sepulveda's commitment to doing it right. It is all about his students, and their growth in the Art, not how much money can they generate for him. Mr. Sepulveda has a HUGE fund of knowledge, which he tries to increase every day, and his affiliation with Jeff Speakman in the AKKS was extremely high profile, drawing in a large number of schools worldwide. After splitting off, but not severing ties, in a little over a year, we have 60 schools in 9 countries that are AKTS (that is phenomenal to me, given that membership is by invitation only, or a member "sponsors" you in usually). It is not a "pay your money and take your chances" kind of organization.

Since I did the web site, let me quote myself "... dedicated to preserving and evolving in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate, through actively training, regardless of belt rank or time in the Art." ALL BELTS!!! No sitting on the sidelines critiquing whoever is teaching ... if not worse. Some of the other things I like are the high value he places on the family and kids in the Art and great value is placed on professional personal responses from staff in a timely manner; it is much more affordable, for me and my students - memberships, patches, seminars, etc.

Something different is that Membership in the AKTS is not exclusive. It's members can have dual affiliation with other Kenpo, Professional, or Martial Arts organizations. This basically says that Mr. Sepulveda and the AKTS does not feel "threatened" by anything out there being taught now days. You are welcome to go learn, compare, contrast, and odds are, you are getting your Kenpo-related needs met within the organization. 

I like Mr. Sepulveda's availability; his support and relationship with my instructor, Tommy Burks, his upper belts, 5th and up look and move great, and they understand not only what they are doing, but why they are doing it. The organization is not trying to be big, but Mr. Sepulveda's reputation, ability, and integrity are pretty powerful draws to those looking for a "family" of Kenpoist.

OK, now that was my shameless plug for who I voted for, but hey, you asked. His value will be to a select group of individuals that are looking for the "Ironworker" and the "Watchmaker" - I never hear negatives about Mr. Sepulveda, and that is plain amazing given the Kenpo environment today.

Respectfully
-Michael

_edited for grammer_


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Two reasons

1)  I am only acquainted with a few of the people mentioned and, being from his neck of the woods, I know John Sepulveda the best.  And,

2)  His outreach, his openness, his accessibility, all combine to make him the most accessible and unifying Kenpoist I've met.


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Two reasons
> 
> 1)  I am only acquainted with a few of the people mentioned and, being from his neck of the woods, I know John Sepulveda the best.  And,
> 
> 2)  His outreach, his openness, his accessibility, all combine to make him the most accessible and unifying Kenpoist I've met. *


I'll give you that Mr. Sepulveda is a very open and accessible guy; however, the same can be said for the ones you have not met save for one. As for you first reason, well you know as well as I do that that is what is wrong with your poll in the first place. We are going to choose what we know and slight what we do not. My 7th grade English teacher is by far the best English teacher I ever had so I feel he is the model for all english teachers. Don't even try to bring your favs up because I never heard of um. :asian: 
Sean


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I agree, most of us will vote for our instructor or at least the one we know best.  

Now if everyone lists the qualities that make them like their instructor, then we'll have a good idea of which directions Kenpo will take in the next few years.

And that is my hidden agenda for starting this poll in the first place.  And, to me, it is an important agenda because so much of what I see about Kenpo and from Kenpoists on the internet is past-focused, closed-to-new-ideas, and condescending toward other arts and methods.  I want to hear about the good things that Kenpoists are doing and I hope that this thread helps to bring that out of us.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Of course, you could take the "Time," magazine approach, and simply put up whoever might have the greatest impact, good or bad.


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I agree, most of us will vote for our instructor or at least the one we know best.
> 
> Now if everyone lists the qualities that make them like their instructor, then we'll have a good idea of which directions Kenpo will take in the next few years.
> 
> And that is my hidden agenda for starting this poll in the first place.  And, to me, it is an important agenda because so much of what I see about Kenpo and from Kenpoists on the internet is past-focused, closed-to-new-ideas, and condescending toward other arts and methods.  I want to hear about the good things that Kenpoists are doing and I hope that this thread helps to bring that out of us. *



Do a search- top five kenpoist you would like to have a lesson with and why...  All kinds of what you are looking for there by all kinds of kenpo people.


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## pete

> Of course, you could take the "Time," magazine approach, and simply put up whoever might have the greatest impact, good or bad. -rmcrobertson.



the question was not: Who would you LIKE to influence EPAK... 
nor, Who is the most popular so-and-so, nor was it Who's classes or seminars would you like to attend, or whose products would you like to purchase...

although it is a poll, and just like the rediculous ones of the political variety, well, the results can be twisted to mean all of the above.

I for one (and that's probably an accurate count... since, so far all i've heard are the crickets chirping), feel that for out and out IMPACT, Edmund Parker Jr CAN be that person.  After all, he shares his fathers name and it makes up 50% of our little acronym.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> I for one (and that's probably an accurate count... since, so far all i've heard are the crickets chirping), feel that for out and out IMPACT, Edmund Parker Jr CAN be that person.



Other than sharing his father's name, I fail to see where Mr. Parker Jr has been much of an influence in the world of kenpo (please let me know if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will).  Sure he's drawn a few portraits, but as of yet, he really hasn't done anything to standout in the kenpo community.  This may change over the next couple of years with the restructuring of the IKKA, but to date Mr. Parker Jr. seems to be known more for his artwork and the fact that he cut up and sold his daddy's belt than for his martial arts ability.  I also might add that despite the fact that he is the SGM's son, he didn't really train with him and actually received his rank from a 1st gen blackbelt (which essentially makes him a 2nd gen blackbelt, but who really cares).  

I guess what it comes down to is whether or not EP jr. will step out of daddy's shadow and truly influence the kenpo community or if he will continue to prosper by virtue of his NAME alone. 



> After all, he shares his fathers name and it makes up 50% of our little acronym.



Surely this isn't the only reason. IS IT?


----------



## Shiatsu

I believe he received his balck belt from Doc Chapel.  But I don't see how he will lead them into greatness either.  I will stay with my first vote.:asian:


----------



## CoolKempoDude

i think old fat kenpo is a person who will impact EPAK in the next 10 years. Why?

he was the one who brought up "fighting when you are down", Brazil jujitsu thing, from AK's point of view.

as the result of his comment, he took a lot of hits.

If you see AK focus on "ground techniques" down the line, do not forget OLD FAT KENPO from Martial Talk forum


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Again as I said earlier John, you read what you want to read. I never denied anyone listed above their reputation or put down what they have done for Kenpo. And I never judged them. Look closly at my statement. And what about the statement NONE of the ABOVE is negative John ? It is what it is, not more not less. My personal opinion. If you make it to yours, analyze and judge it, then you make it negative. I didn't. You see what you want to see. *


No Sven, I didnt read what I wantedI read your words. Theres nothing wrong with putting down none of the above, thats just your opinion and youre free to it, but you must admit it goes against the nature of the poll question, as there was no choice called none of the above, there was one that said  Somebody else. The question wasnt will anyone make an impact, but who amongst these choices do you feel will make the greatest impact. No doubt those listed will be those who make the biggest impacts on our art. If you think someone else will, there was a choice for it.

You said: 
I never denied anyone listed above their reputation or put down what they have done for Kenpo.

Thats not even in question; dont know why you inserted this here. I never said you did either.

You said: 
And I never judged them.
Really? Yes you did.

You said: 
And what about the statement NONE of the ABOVE is negative John ? It is what it is, not more not less.
No, it was moreyou qualified this opinion with something else, that the ego must be eliminated and that since its not you chose none. This is what I perceived as being negative. Seemed like you were saying that these men werent spiritually evolved enough. 

You said:
If you make it to yours, analyze and judge it, then you make it negative.

Id really like to comment on this, but I dont think I understand what you are saying. I didnt make it mine, as I stated in the previous point, I thought you were saying that none of these men qualify based on your judgment.  You see when anyone says/writes something the very act of receiving this message entails analyzing  and judging it. How else shall I make up my mind about what youve said?

If Im wrong, sorry. My mistake, Im human. 
Like I said before, Im sure your motives are good, just that what you wrote did seem judgmental.
Thanks

Your Brother
John


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *If you see AK focus on "ground techniques" down the line, do not forget OLD FAT KENPO from Martial Talk forum *



Are you familiar with the self defence technique 'Rolling Thunder'? It's not the only groundfighting technique in the syllabus either.

Kenpo ground fighting is already there, you just need the right exposure to Kenpo.

Les


----------



## Seig

Let's not start that discussion in _another_ thread.


----------



## Kenpodoc

> _Originally posted by SThiess _
> *Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above *



You're right.  Certainly no ego involved in any other systems.

Jeff


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by True2Kenpo _
> *
> As for my vote, I voted for Mr. Planas because he is my instructor and his method of training is the training I desire.
> 
> *


Josh,
I thought you were under Mr. Ronemus.  Did he switch to Mr. Planas as well?


----------



## Nick Ellerton

Has Mr Tommy Chavies been mentioned?


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

> Has Mr Tommy Chavies been mentioned?



Who is Mr Tommy Chavies?


----------



## Brian Jones

Couple of things.  Why the animosity toward Ed Parker Jr?  We are talking about impact on Kenpo, not stripes on our belt.  If indeed Mr. Parker continues to reorganize the IKKA that could have a great impact.  Mr. Parker Jr. came to our shcooland did a seminar for us, and he was both knowledgable and humble.  And no, I am not a student of his or a part of the IKKA.  In fact I voted for Mr. Mills.
   And so what if he sold his father's picture with a piece of Mr. Parker's belt?  I mean its his belt he can do what he wants and no one had to buy it.  There are a lot of people who know cna say they have a part of one of Mr. Parker's belts now.

Brian Jones 
ps. Tommy Chavies is a first generation Parker student who is in some of the photos of Infinite Insights vol. 5


----------



## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Brian Jones _
> *
> And so what if he sold his father's picture with a piece of Mr. Parker's belt?  I mean its his belt he can do what he wants and no one had to buy it.  There are a lot of people who know cna say they have a part of one of Mr. Parker's belts now.
> 
> *



i saw it on ed parker jr's web site last year. I thought it is weird for him to do that.

i don't understand why he wanted to cut his father belt into many pieaces and sold it to anybody who wanted a pieace ????

ed parker jr is obviously not a poor man compared to other. He didn't have to do that.

i see what he did was REALLY interesting and EXTREMELY STRANGE.

Think about it: if your father is a founder of this or that or a famous person, why would you want to destroy his stuff and sell it to other? 

you should keep all his stuff because they are invaluable.

i guess he (ed parker jr) can do whatever he wants to his father stuff.

i hope that AK people don't take this as an insult.

*a special note for other high ranking 5 degree or above, please tell your children NOT to cut your belt and pant into many pieaces and sell it on Ebay because i'm not going to BID on it*

Special Update: When i went to his web site, i saw the picture of his cutting belt into pieaces. He surely is a heck of artist


----------



## Brian Jones

The only reason I mentioned it was that I remember this being a huge issue on the AKKI forum a year or two ago.  I think I remember Mr. Parker Jr. chiming in and clarifying that it wasn't the only belt of his father's he had. If it was the only one he had, yeah it's a little odd. But then again it's his belt to do what he wnats.  But  since its not liek Mr. parker only had one belt, its really not that big a deal to me, I thought it was sort of cool. although I didn't buy one.

Brian Jones


----------



## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Brian Jones _
> *The only reason I mentioned it was that I remember this being a huge issue on the AKKI forum a year or two ago.  I think I remember Mr. Parker Jr. chiming in and clarifying that it wasn't the only belt of his father's he had. If it was the only one he had, yeah it's a little odd. But then again it's his belt to do what he wnats.  But  since its not liek Mr. parker only had one belt, its really not that big a deal to me, I thought it was sort of cool. although I didn't buy one.
> 
> Brian Jones *



Ed Parker had more than 1 belt ???? I did not realize that you can change belt when you change your clothes?????

i am a conspiracy theorist and i love to be one and the question here is 

how do you if that cut belt is ed parker's belt because belt with the same strike looks alike????

hell, i can go out and "order" one which looks the same and claim it's my father stuff and sell it to you AND you don't know the different right????

just want to let you know what i think................no offense to anybody.


----------



## Brian Jones

Gosh no not offended at all.  Just relaying what, if I rememeber correctly, what Ed Parker's reply was when this came up before. As I rememebr he sounded pretty upset that his integrity was being questioned. At least that's how it seemed to me.  But all in all, I do think its interesting his name came up.  When we think of impact on kenpo we have been talking about Seniors.  It may be the person who has the greatest impact won't be the person with the highest degree but the greater organizational, or promotional skills.


Brian Jones


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i saw it on ed parker jr's web site last year. I thought it is weird for him to do that.
> 
> i hope that AK people don't take this as an insult.
> 
> a special note for other high ranking 5 degree or above, please tell your children NOT to cut your belt and pant into many pieaces and sell it on Ebay because i'm not going to BID on it
> 
> Special Update: When i went to his web site, i saw the picture of his cutting belt into pieaces. He surely is a heck of artist *


I don't mind that Edmund Jr has done this. Without its owner the belt is just a peice of cloth, and in this case it probably means a lot more to the purchasers than the person selling it. He was Senior Grandmaster parker to us and just plain old Dad to them. I thought it was a kind gesture, and its not as if he is selling peices in baggies; the peices are attached to great art works, as you have acknowledged.
Sean


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

You guys have just given validation to my argument.  I couldn't care less that the guy hacked "Daddy's" belt to pieces and sold it on the internet.  My point was that EP Jr. is known more for this particular event than he is for his martial arts skills.  As for the future of the IKKA, after a few spits and sputters, we are all still waiting to see if anything will actually happen.


----------



## pete

> As for the future of the IKKA, after a few spits and sputters, we are all still waiting to see if anything will actually happen.- kenpo yahoo



You've just validated my original rationale for bringing EPJr into this discussion... not as a vote for 'best in show', but upon who else is everybody waiting to see what happens next?  If its a homerun (big impact), strike out (big negative impact), or he can stay up at the plate and keep fouling 'em off (yawn)...

pete


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

The only reason I have been waiting to see what will happen is because I'm curious how, exactly, they will get a bunch of people together who for the most part don't get along.  I'm not waiting to join, I'm just waiting for something to happen and thus far we have seen bupkus!!!  They appear to have charged everyone an arm and a leg just to wear their patch without any other real benefit.  

If the association takes off and starts playing a big  role then great. Kenpo is big enough to have multiple players, but until then we can only go on Jr's history which, quite frankly, isn't all that impressive.  

Anyway, this is starting to get off topic so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## CoolKempoDude

who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years ????

this is a good question and god knows what will happen to EPAK in many years.

Ed Parker Sr did not name any successor before he passed away and it certainly makes thing complicated and chaos.

from what i have seen and read in this forum, i can say that it is very much everybody in AK goes different ways and goes their own ways.

some of us are students of SENIOR members and we surely want our grandmaster or master to be the person who impact EPAK in next 10 years BUT it is not going to work because

if 10 person of larry say LARRY is the one, 20 student of DOC or goldendragon 7 say he is the one and i'm sure many will claim so. Unless you all fight each other to death for the "impact person of EPAK" TROPHY.

it is certainly sad.

i don't know or fail to see if Ed Parker Jr has any roles in EPAK since he is the "ambassador" ??? I don't know if this "ambassador" has the ability to unite everybody together. He has a heck of the mission to do.

good luck to you AK people. One thing good certainly happens is we have EPAK forum here where we discuss about it and talk about it.

to me, it is awesome


----------



## rmcrobertson

Uh...I never knew what this, "ambassador," stuff was about to begin with.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  From OFK's cynical alliterative dictionary...

Ambassador = powerless politician with a penchant for public politeness placed as far away from his country's (or art's) actual leaders as possible.


----------



## KenpoTess

*just thinking out loud...*

Of the listed in the poll... How would each impact Kenpo?   Unless we are a TOTALLY UNIFIED System.. with an Active Unified Senior Council who Gave their all to upholding Mr. Parker's System.. Who were not concerned with who's better than whom, (all hypothetical thoughts here), A Group who would encompass Every EPAK Studio out there.. Not for a Profit purpose but to RELAY  Mr. Parker's system to all AK's.  To Keep all on the same page, To Solidify the Base of Kenpoists everywhere. 
Can you Imagine.. All the Combined Knowledge of our Seniors come together as a whole?  Phenomenal it would be.. 

It's like anything in life.. you take away stop signs and rules.. what happens? Chaos.. insurrection.. how many accidents happen in parking lots?  Humanity needs rules to coexist, a Format to follow.  Certainly we wish for freedom to do what we will, but we should see from our own pasts, without a strong base to guide us, we soon flounder and end up .. such as we are.

With Respect,

Tess


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Tess:  When the Messiah comes to redeem humanity, let us all hope Kenpo unification is on G_d's to-do list.


----------



## pete

> Can you Imagine...





> come together as a whole...



is somebody channeling John Lennon?  

Maybe Helter Skelter would be a fair description? Well, I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round...


----------



## rmcrobertson

I continue to be happy I now have a back yard, because in my back yard I will never have to give a rat's...uh, ear about who dreams that they're the boss of kenpo.

And while I realize this will not be oil on ripples, I cannot imagine why in the world I would want to join an organization formed by business, for business, and administered by people who are no more experienced in kenpo than I am.


----------



## Michael Billings

... that would actually have me as a member (as the old saw would say).
 
-Michael


----------



## Seig

The one thing I can say that I find good about the current state of Kenpo is that all the seniors have their own strengths.  They work on their own strengths and their own points of view.  This allows us to find someone who's strength's and points of view are similiar to our own.  Most of the seniors are friends and communicate with each other.  This allows us to sample from them and to discuss with our own instructors the differences.  Some may be good, others not, but it allows for an open discussion and another learning experience.


----------



## Nick Ellerton

One thing i cannot seem to get my head around is the massive Kenpo following throughout the world and the fact that the infinate insights are no longer in print! I no i should be saying that in a different thread but yeah. And as far as someone having an impact on EPAK in the next 10 years i dont think one individual can do it. and i think its a matter of opinion as to who is more capable but just as long as we keep the flame burning i dont think it will matter, just as long as we have still got hold of Mr Parker's life dedication and always appreciate that then it will always live.


----------



## Rick Wade

As far as leading Kenpo, I would look at history.

Mr Tatum has put the tapes and DVDs out there But Mr. Mills has actually evolved the system much like GM Parker did with what he learned from Proffesor Chow.  

Just my humble opinion.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _
> *As far as leading Kenpo, I would look at history.
> Mr Tatum has put the tapes and DVDs out there But Mr. Mills has actually evolved the system much like GM Parker did with what he learned from Proffesor Chow.
> *


I agree Rick. That's a big factor in my estimation as well.
While all of these men are notable for one thing or the other, I feel that Mr. Mills leads not just the artists that seek his instruction/creation/inovations...but he also 'leads' the art that they seek to learn from him.
:asian: 
Your Brother
John


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _
> *As far as leading Kenpo, I would look at history.
> 
> Mr Tatum has put the tapes and DVDs out there But Mr. Mills has actually evolved the system much like GM Parker did with what he learned from Proffesor Chow.
> 
> Just my humble opinion.
> 
> Thanks
> Rick *


 I agree, Mr. Mills is or was a quick draw champion, and his methods of increasing speed and dealing with a person you know is faster than yourself are simply revolutionary.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Please define exactly what you mean by, "evolved the system."

I'd also be curious to know why being, "a quick draw champion," has anything to do with, "evolving," kenpo.

Thanks.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

per Meriam Webster:  Evolve from Evolution

Evolution:
Etymology: Latin evolution-, evolutio unrolling, from evolvere
1 : one of a set of prescribed movements
2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved
3 : the process of working out or developing
4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : PHYLOGENY b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations
5 : the extraction of a mathematical root
6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena

I think definitions 2 and 3 apply here.

Quickdraw champion only has to do with evolving as some of the AKKI principles/techniques are designed to improve speed.


----------



## rmcrobertson

I kinda suspect I know what the word means. I'm asking what, specifically, Mr. Mills "evolved," out of kenpo.


----------



## Rick Wade

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *per Meriam Webster:  Evolve from Evolution
> Quickdraw champion only has to do with evolving as some of the AKKI principles/techniques are designed to improve speed. *



I would like to say that First; I have never met Mr. Parker.

Opinion:  From what everyone (that was a student of GM Parker) has told me is that he was always evolving his system and GM Parker thought some could Students handle more evolution than others that is why he taught some students some things and others he taught other stuff.  

Fact:  He changed the number of Techniques per belt for example.  

Opinion:  I am not saying lets all join the AKKI but lets not just say that they are AKKI principles lets say that they are American Kenpo Principles.  I was introduced to some of the timing principles that they use and it made an incredible difference.  I think Mr. Mills is on the right direction.  I didn't realize how much he had changed the curriculum until I took a couple of classes from one of his students and had some in depth conversations with Mr. Mills as well as his students.  It is my humble opinion that Mr. Mills is making better Kenpo practitioners out of all of his students and their students.  

Last Note:  There have been very few American Kenpo studios that practice EPAK that I havent been impressed with at least on some level.

Humbly Yours in Kenpo

Rick


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Please define exactly what you mean by, "evolved the system."
> 
> I'd also be curious to know why being, "a quick draw champion," has anything to do with, "evolving," kenpo.
> Thanks. *


Hey Robert-
Here's a link to the AKKI website (which is really the best place to find out anything concerning the AKKI, go figure huh): http://www.akki.com/membership/akki_introduction.htm

That'll take you to a page that talks about some, but not all, of the AKKI 'evolution' that Mr. Mills has brought about.
Also, here's another link to another page from the site that lists some of the concepts and principles that Mr. Mills has codified and/or extrapolated on at length for the AKKI members:
http://www.akki.com/articles/akkiconcepts.htm

We have all new techniques, older techniques who's ideal phase has been modified and then some of the old standby's that are so good that they remain pretty much unchanged...as I understand it; except of course that the way they are executed/performed may be different.

New forms, new self-defense techs, new sets, new empty hand training drills, new groundfighting techniques and strategies
New weapons forms, new weapons sets, new weapons techs
new drills for weapons
Lots of good 'new' stuff...
lots of 'evolution'.

This all pertains to your first question, not the second.
I don't know if you have or have access to the book "The Journey", if you don't I highly recomend it...it's fascinating to read about many of the "elder-dragons" of Kenpo and their experiences in it!!! But in the section on Mr. Mills he talks some about how he put a lot of thought and research into how to develop greater speed (increadible/world-record speed) in his fast draw motion (which involves a great deal more than just the hand or even one arm). He talks about how Mr. Parker liked to analyze his motion patterns and his methods of developing greater speed and thereby help him achieve even greater results... Mr. Mills then took these lessons/concepts and applied them to the motion of Kenpo and with Mr. Parker's guidance created concepts and training practices that helped him capitolize on this same 'speed development' w/in his Kenpo techinques. 
It worked, proof's in the puddin as they say. So the fact that Mr. Mills became a quick draw world champion doesn't really effect AKKI Kenpo nearly so much as what he learned from it and created as a by-product of it that he then brought into the Kenpo work itself. Kinda like the by-product technological benefits of the space race...things that though they help and aid us a great deal, their use now has little to do with space exploration.

What's more Mr. Mills has incorporated these same elements into his inovations with those things that are new or improved in the AKKI curriculum...thus he's able to engender tremendous results in those who practice it.

BUT: Speed isn't the only area of improvement that Mr. Mills has made for Kenpo...not by far. It's one element w/in a context of many others. But it (speed) tends to be the one that many people see and understand first; probably because it's so outstanding, visually obvious and the other things take actual study of his material in order to learn/be exposed to and thus appreciated.

I kinda doubt I did this subject justice. There's many many more in our association that could put it more plainly or with better detail... but I'm kinda outspoken, so I say what I know.
Hope I helped answer your question some.

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

Well, OK and thanks.

But evolution doesn't work by the simple generation of new forms. It works by the generation of new forms that are pro--or anti-survival.

I'm also still not sure why speed as such is all that big a deal. Of all my inadequacies in kenpo (we haven't time for the list), I can't even consider speed...

And I'd be curious to know what you think represents such an evolution, not just what the website says, though I'm gonna go look right now.

Thanks.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

What?  No votes for Frank Trejo so far?  Didn't he revive the IKC's?  Isn't that one of the single largest Kenpo (and Karate) events of the year?  Doesn't that count for something?


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well, OK and thanks.
> 
> But evolution doesn't work by the simple generation of new forms. It works by the generation of new forms that are pro--or anti-survival.
> 
> I'm also still not sure why speed as such is all that big a deal. Of all my inadequacies in kenpo (we haven't time for the list), I can't even consider speed...
> 
> And I'd be curious to know what you think represents such an evolution, not just what the website says, though I'm gonna go look right now.
> Thanks. *



You are welcome Robert. Glad I could help. :asian: 
Maybe it's not as much that they are "new" as what they cultivate in those who practice them that matters. New doesn't always (or even often) mean 'better', better means better. That's my thought. They have had the effect of generating greater competency sooner, from what I've seen and experienced.
I'm not so sure about what you mean by pro or anti survival. Do you mean that they should be 'better'? I think they are, but that's just the opinion of one person....the one subject I'm a master in; my own opinion. Obviously there's at least 17 people who also voted in this little poll who feel similarly. 

Like I said, speed isn't the end all be all of AKKI Kenpo... but it is an important element within Kenpo and the martial arts overall. Put it like this, if you had one million dollars to bet on a boxing match in Vegas and the fighters were exact equals in all ways but speed...wouldn't you bet on the faster person? What if one was MUCH stronger, but the other MUCH faster....wouldn't you still choose speed? Strong only matters if it hits, besides speed factors greatly in the generation of force.  It also factors greatly in the number of times you can hit the other person as well as the speed with which you can avoid/excape being hit at all. But you are right, it's not nearly all of what Kenpo is all about... I thought I'd said something to that effect in my previous response...


> BUT: Speed isn't the only area of improvement that Mr. Mills has made for Kenpo...not by far. It's one element w/in a context of many others.


Yeah...that's the ticket.

Later Robert...
Your Brother
John


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

John:  Do you have any links to videos of AKKI Form 1, 2, and/or 3?  I am really curious as to how Mr. Mills combined the long and short forms as I think this is a great idea.


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *What?  No votes for Frank Trejo so far?  Didn't he revive the IKC's?  Isn't that one of the single largest Kenpo (and Karate) events of the year?  Doesn't that count for something? *


That's great and it is notable/commendable...but really it's not so "Kenpo-specific". It benefits the martial arts over-all, and for that Mr. Trejo should be applauded. I'm sure it was no small undertaking. But in the end, it's still just one tournament, and I don't see any tournament or all tournaments having THAT great an impact on the future of Kenpo. Also...it does the greatest good for the martial artists of Southern California. Things that some of the others are doing (as well I'm sure as whatever other endevours Mr. Trejo has/is undertaking) reaches further beyond state boarders or over more subjects than just competition.

Having said all this, Mr. Trejo is still one of the big movers in Kenpo I'd think...though I've never had the honor of meeting him. My first instructor did train under him for a time.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *John:  Do you have any links to videos of AKKI Form 1, 2, and/or 3?  I am really curious as to how Mr. Mills combined the long and short forms as I think this is a great idea. *


Sorry man. No can do.

I like the idea too!

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

Um...ah...OK, I looked. 

I don't see anything new, though I do see some unfamiliar terminology.

For example, the thing on the first page, "Structure Governs Function." This look like just an inversion of Henry Louis Sullivan's, "Form Follows Function." And don't the forms teach this anyway?

Glancing down the list on the next page, I also see nearly everything that's familiar. Examples include, "centerline," centerline control," and all the analogies...I mean, I compare Star Block to the way the shields look like ovals around the Enterprise, but that harldy makes me an innovator...

I'd also argue that, "evolution," is a very tricky concept in martial arts. For one thing, as much as I go with historical and cultural change, there is something that's timeless about martial arts.

For another--just to wax theoretical for a moment--the production of something different, or of many different things, is not in and of itself, "evolutionary." It's just different, until questions of environment start to kick in...

Could you maybe tell me what you think is so different from regular kenpoi (whatever that is)? I just don't get it yet...

Thanks.


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *John:  Do you have any links to videos of AKKI Form 1, 2, and/or 3?  I am really curious as to how Mr. Mills combined the long and short forms as I think this is a great idea. *




OFK,

There used to be a video clip of a lady called Percheryl Dawes doing a form on the AKKI Vegas Camp webpage, but it's gone now, because the vegas page is changed every six months.

I may have it on my machine somewhere, if I can find it I'll e-mail it to you.

Les


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Um...ah...OK, I looked.
> 
> I don't see anything new,
> 
> Could you maybe tell me what you think is so different from regular kenpoi (whatever that is)? I just don't get it yet...
> 
> Thanks. *



As I know you'll appreciate, it's difficult to explain something like this via the written word, either on here or on the AKKI website.

So here's a suggestion. And I am completely serious.

If you genuinely want to know what Mr Mills is doing, and where AKKI are going, then call Mr Mills and ask him.

His number is (307) 789-4124, feel free to tell him I suggested you call. ( Les Grihault from England)

He can explain it to you much more clearly than myself or Brother John, although John is certainly doing a good job.

Respectfully,

Les


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Um...ah...OK, I looked.
> 
> I don't see anything new, though I do see some unfamiliar terminology.
> 
> For example, the thing on the first page, "Structure Governs Function." This look like just an inversion of Henry Louis Sullivan's, "Form Follows Function." And don't the forms teach this anyway?
> 
> Glancing down the list on the next page, I also see nearly everything that's familiar. Examples include, "centerline," centerline control," and all the analogies...I mean, I compare Star Block to the way the shields look like ovals around the Enterprise, but that harldy makes me an innovator...
> 
> I'd also argue that, "evolution," is a very tricky concept in martial arts. For one thing, as much as I go with historical and cultural change, there is something that's timeless about martial arts.
> 
> For another--just to wax theoretical for a moment--the production of something different, or of many different things, is not in and of itself, "evolutionary." It's just different, until questions of environment start to kick in...
> 
> Could you maybe tell me what you think is so different from regular kenpoi (whatever that is)? I just don't get it yet...
> 
> Thanks. *


Robert,
As You know I don't study under Mr. Mills but what we have changed as a result of his influance is to completly eliminate the feet toguether position from our art or our lives for that matter. If you think that is not much of a change then so be it. As For what does quick drawing have to do with kenpo... I can only say the methods that make you a faster draw, translate directly to kenpo, and eliminating the feet toguether position is one of them.
Sean


----------



## rmcrobertson

You NEVER put your feet together? Wow.

Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.

I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is. 

As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *You NEVER put your feet together? Wow.
> 
> Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.
> 
> I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.
> 
> As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness? *


Being fast and fluttering your arms as if you were fast are not the same thing. The speed we are impressed with is the very first move. If you don't accept that deleteing certain behaviors is going to change your art for the better or worse that is just where your head is at. I gave an example of one change we have made. I'm not attempting to teach you what paul Mills does. I will assert he is training his students to be faster and to be effective against a person whom is fast. This involves paying attention to how close you are to your opponent and not training against step through puches, but punch step throughs. They are faster than step through punches and for that reason adjustments in your art must be made. These little adjustments will mean nothing to you I'm sure. As your biting sarcasm shows, you are not wowed. I'm sure you never plan to meet someone faster just as you never plan to end up on the ground, but you know us, were all paranoid.
Sean


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *You NEVER put your feet together? Wow.
> 
> Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.
> 
> I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.
> 
> As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness? *


Ever try to be nice to people Robert?
I don't recall this thread being about "What do you not like about certain masters or systems/associations?" Nor do I recall reading any reply asking for your opinion of the AKKI's claims of innovation and progress...which you barely know anything but biased secondhand opinion about...but feel that you can make a judgement on anyway.

Don't judge what you don't know. Don't be snide/condescending and rude...then ask us to explain ourselves further.
Makes no sense.


Your Brother
John


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Ever try to be nice to people Robert?
> I don't recall this thread being about "What do you not like about certain masters or systems/associations?" Nor do I recall reading any reply asking for your opinion of the AKKI's claims of innovation and progress...which you barely know anything but biased secondhand opinion about...but feel that you can make a judgement on anyway.
> 
> Don't judge what you don't know. Don't be snide/condescending and rude...then ask us to explain ourselves further.
> Makes no sense.
> 
> 
> Your Brother
> John *



Good point Brother John.  Unfortunately, he does this ALL the time, and I dont think it'll ever change.

Mike


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.
> 
> I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.
> 
> As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?



Only someone who has never worked with Mr. Mills could make such statements.  

The most direct correlation between fast draw and kenpo can be found in the technique Obscure Wing, but that's only if you want a no frills, to the point, one-for-one explanation.  

How about the way you draw a knife and bring it into play (especially any of the Mills designed knives: fixed blade or folder).  I can draw, open the blade  (my Mills Folder), thrust into the target, ream the target, and slice out "S-4" in one fluid move. 

How about the use of D1/D2 flexion/extension patterns to increase speed while maintaining control? If you don't know how these patterns work with the timing patterns then you won't  be able to maximize your striking potential and will more than likely destroy your shoulder and/or elbow (just ask Dan Thiel he screwed up his arm because he thought he knew it all and didn't take the time to learn it right).  

How about teaching people to punch in such a way that they can make use of either the upside or downside of the circle?  How about simply teaching the students that there is a difference and explaining what that difference is?  How about indepth explanations of different methods for generating power (Simultaneous, relayed, or converged), the benefits of each, and every little muscle twitch required to achieve the desired result.  

I keep hearing all this crap about eye gouging, fish hooking and groin shots.  If this is all you know how to do, then you are getting screwed.  Ask for your money back.  These are tactics taught in 2 hour women's self defense seminars.  So really, if you have been in kenpo for more than a week and your only answer is the above, then you really should find a new school.  Isn't anyone teaching you how to punch, how to fire devastating elbows, how to kick, how to strike with speed, power, and effect?   No I don't mean showing you that this is an inward crescent or that is a right hook, but I mean walking you through the summation of total body motion required to generate power and speed for each movement.  

These are just a few of the things that we are covering in the AKKI.  Sure, there are people that just want to learn technique sequences and a few timing patterns, that's fine.  However, the material goes far beyond this conceptual level, into a realm of exact sequential progression, targeting, etc.  

Can I say that what Mr. Mills is teaching is truly an evolution of the art?  No, but I don't ever remember hearing Mr. Mills or any of the AKKI board say that they wanted to evolve the art.  Only to increase our proficiency, ability, and knowledge base, through innovation.  This is pretty much the bi-line of the www.akki.com homepage, and quite honestly I think they are doing a damn good job. Like I said though, that's just my thoughts on the subject.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Robert,
I Think Mr. Mills has done more to eliminate the slap art rep than just about anyone. Fusing all your moves toguether and calling it speed is what is wrong with Kenpo as far as I'm concerned. The idea of sequencial muscle motion not only makes you faster it reduces injury, increases accuracy, and power.
Sean


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes. *



According to my dictionary, evolution is gradual development.

The things Mr Mills is doing are a 'gradual development' of what he was doing within the IKKA. At that time Mr. Mills served as a member of the I.K.K.A. Systems Council (One of only three members) He was also the Regional Representative for a ten state area (region #10).

They were known as the "Paul Mills Family Group" This is WHERE the AKKI evolved from.



> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is. *



As to what the evolution is, a couple of things like the use of D1/D2 flexion/extension patternshave already been mentioned, Did you skip those bits? I'm not going to repeat them all here.

How about the creation of a seperate Club Syllabus. Or a seperate Knife Syllabus.

Both have testing and certification independent to the belt curriculum.

As I said before, it's difficult (for me at least) to describe the changes and development that are going on. But I can tell you that I understand a lot of things since working with the AKKI that I just didn't see before. Also, I move a LOT better now, than I ever did. 

Take Sword & Hammer for example: Thanks to Mr Mills I can execute this technique faster, more powerfully, from a more stable (and also more fluid) base. In training I can do all of this more safely too. 

Earlier in this thread, I suggested you call Mr Mills yourself and ask him what he's doing.

Did you call him?
Was he able to answer your questions?

Robert, please remember, your mind is like a parachute, it works best when it's open.

Respectfully,

Les


----------



## Brother John

> But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?



Tell me what you think Robert, was there ever any real validity to this outsiders estimation, the slap art argument?

I personally think it's an argument 100% devoid of merit.
Speed is one of Kenpo's greater assets, not it's liability. Their estimation is based on a lack of understanding. In other words they were judging something they didn't understand.

Understand?

Besides, since when do we go about changing the way we do things just because outsiders "critisize us"?
I don't.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Nick Ellerton

ok ok seriously guys this only comes down to opinion thats all some people think that larry tatum is a wanker, others think huck planas is a wanker. As far as it all goes its only an opinion and they are like buttholes everybodies got one. So instead of looking at what might hapen and who might impact on it all in the next ten years why dont you consider all of those who are involved and not bring it down to a select few. Just accept what happens and live with it either way you guys are extremely passionate about the art and that in essence is the arts future all you are talking about atm is a leader for this passion.


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> * This involves paying attention to how close you are to your opponent and not training against step through puches, but punch step throughs.*



I have been doing those for years.  And I have never trained under Mr. Mills.  If what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are the same things...



> *They are faster than step through punches and for that reason adjustments in your art must be made.*



Yes they are faster than step through punches, yet i have not found them to be as powerful.  Once again if what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are indeed the same actions.


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Don't judge what you don't know.
> 
> Your Brother
> John *



Good advice!!!


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I have been doing those for years.  And I have never trained under Mr. Mills.  If what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are the same things...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they are faster than step through punches, yet i have not found them to be as powerful.  Once again if what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are indeed the same actions. *


 My instructor and I don't train under Mr. Mills either. As For you second point. Did you ever hear Mr. Parker tell the story about getting stabbed with a six inch blade as opposed to a twelve? I never said step through punches weren't more powerfull; however, a punch step through will be faster and Knock your *** out all the same. And Step through punches will only be found and taught in a karate studio.
Sean


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *And Step through punches will only be found and taught in a karate studio. *



I've worked in juvenile correctional facilities for about 11 years now, I've seen LOTS of minor squables, to fights to riots... and I've yet to see any of these guys do anything that even remotely looks like a step-through punch, and though they are "juveniles" and not trained fighters (well, not most of them at least) the majority of them have grown up in the streets and in gangs where they've been forced to scrap on a consistent basis... So I figure their fights are indicative of a regular street-thug.
It's interesting work.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

can you guys say 
LONG run-on sentence?

sorry... 

Your Brother
John


----------



## Rick Wade

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I've worked in juvenile correctional facilities for about 11 years now, I've seen LOTS of minor squables, to fights to riots... and I've yet to see any of these guys do anything that even remotely looks like a step-through punch, and though they are "juveniles" and not trained fighters (well, not most of them at least) the majority of them have grown up in the streets and in gangs where they've been forced to scrap on a consistent basis... So I figure their fights are indicative of a regular street-thug.
> It's interesting work.
> 
> Your Brother
> John *



Not to get off of the topic and maybe this should be a new thread but, what would they do?  I picture them still in their stance probably bouncing and throw a punch from their back hand and maybe put their shoulder into it (much like a boxer).  yea na what have you seen the most?  I would be intrested in talking to you in depth.

Thanks Rick


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *can you guys say
> LONG run-on sentence?
> 
> sorry...
> 
> Your Brother
> John *


 I just started the sentance with And. That is not a run on sentence. I may have broke a rule, but it was no run on sentence. Now proffessor, which rule did I break. Robert may actualy be of some help with this one.  
Sean


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I just started the sentance with And. That is not a run on sentence. I may have broke a rule, but it was no run on sentence. Now proffessor, which rule did I break. Robert may actualy be of some help with this one.
> Sean *


No dude....
MY run-on sentence....
The one in the post JUST before the GEEZE one. Was poking fun at myself.
 
Your Brother
John


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *No dude....
> MY run-on sentence....
> The one in the post JUST before the GEEZE one. Was poking fun at myself.
> 
> Your Brother
> John *


My Bad


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Did you ever hear Mr. Parker tell the story about getting stabbed with a six inch blade as opposed to a twelve?*



BIG difference between a knife and a fist!!!!




> *I never said step through punches weren't more powerfull; however, a punch step through will be faster and Knock your *** out all the same. And Step through punches will only be found and taught in a karate studio.
> *



I don't disagree here...I was just focusing on a different point.:asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson

1, Try the first sentence of Milton's "Aeropagitica, " which goes on for like a week.

2. A Texan is visiting Harvard. He walks up to a professor, and asks, "Sir, can y'all tell me whur the lib'rary's at?

Professor says, "My good man, never end  a sentence with a preposition."

Texan says, "OK, sir, can y'all tell me whur the lib'rary's at, a******?"

3. Glad I was sick yesterday, and couldn't respond. Guys, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't comment on other people's character (whatever their fantasies), and I'd appreciate it if you'd leave mine out of the discussion. Just discuss what I write; given the amount of dopey stuff there, it shouldn't be too hard to take apart.

4. One day, Albert Einstein is observed talking intensely to the little girl next door for over an hour. Later, her parents come up and apologize for their daughter's having taken up so much of the great man's time. "What could she have to discuss that would possibly be of interest to you?" they say. "We were discussing relativity," says Albert. "Relativity?" they say. "How could you possibly explain relativity to a four-year-old?" "Well," says Albert, "If I couldn't explain relativity to a four-year-old, it would just show that I don't understand it myself."

5. Please just a brief explanation of, "D1/D2 flexion/extension patterns to increase speed while maintaining control." 


Thanks.


----------



## Fastmover

> _
> 
> 5. Please just a brief explanation of, "D1/D2 flexion/extension patterns to increase speed while maintaining control."
> 
> 
> Thanks. [/B]_


_ 

Ask your instructor._


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *BIG difference between a knife and a fist!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree here...I was just focusing on a different point.:asian: *


Mr. Parker didn't relate the story to talk about knife lengths. :asian: 
Sean :asian:


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Ask your instructor. *


 Why, is it a secret? Its ok to give a breif explanation I'm sure we can handle it. "D" is just a letter and 1 and 2 are just numbers. At least tell us what "D" stands for.:asian: 
Sean


----------



## rmcrobertson

Ya know, it's odd. I can't think of anything I've learned in kenpo that could be put into words that I couldn't give either a) a succinct, fairly-clear explanation of; b) a statement that gee, I hadn't heard of that, c) a statement that aw shucks, I should know that but I don't remember, followed by my looking it up because I should remember, d) a statement that says, nope, I think you're wrong and here's why.

I realize that I put a couple people's noses out of joint, but I have to say--it reminds me of teaching writing classes, when I hear students who claim to have been told things like, "never use the pronoun 'I' when you write," but then can't recall any explanation of why you should never use the pronoun, "I." 

I'm sure some of you folks have an explanation; I'm plain and simple just asking, and I don't see what the big deal is.


----------



## Fastmover

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Why, is it a secret? Its ok to give a breif explanation I'm sure we can handle it. "D" is just a letter and 1 and 2 are just numbers. At least tell us what "D" stands for.:asian:
> Sean *



Really there are no secrets, but consider the person asking the question and their attitude toward different ideas throughout
the forums in general. 

From his point of view there can be nothing new in Kenpo; therefore, I told him to get the answer from his instructor. 

However, for those with an open mind,
the "D" stands for Diagonal and it is used  to teach one
proper kinesthetic movement on a diagonal plain. Doing so
improves economy of motion, speed, power and effect of
the movement.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

I totally agree with Fastmover.  Why the hell should I take the time to explain to someone the things that we are doing when that person has repeatedly, and arrogantly, dogged our Head Instructor and association.  The phrase,"There is nothing new in kenpo" comes to mind.  Well, If there is nothing new in kenpo, then ask Tatum.  A number of our colored belts know, understand, and apply these concepts, so surely Tatum knows what they are and how they work. 

A wise man once said,"There are really only two types of questions: those that are asked to seek information and those that are asked to challenge what is being done.

If I for one minute thought that you were actually sincere I might take the time to explain.   Unfortunately I don't, so I guess I won't.


----------



## Touch Of Death

I agree that Robert was being a little snotty, but he may have directed it at me and the way I gave my answer, and basicly got hit by Mr. Mills' supporters like a freight train commin'. I couldn't have planned it any better. Secondly, the Jargon is confusing and You are being just as snotty as Robert for asking him to ask his instructor. I belong to Kenpo 2000 and we arent't using D1 and D2; so, I thought I would ask. We do however do what you are doing with our own terminology.


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *I agree that Robert was being a little snotty *



Actually, I thought he was becoming reminscent of Clyde, with his _'I don't support/believe/belong to that school of thinking, so it can't be right' _ attitude.

Maybe I've mis-read him, but the way he is challenging people on here who (I believe) are lower ranks than him on here seems designed to intimidate and humiliate rather than anything else.

In this thread I have twice suggested that Robert should call Mr Mills with his questions. Did he call him yet? Apparently not.

Someone earlier said "Ask your Instructor" Why not?

Professor Gary Ellis, 6th Degree Kenpo, once told me, "If you don't ask questions I can't learn"

I'm sorry if this reads as a personal attack on Robert, it wasn't intended as such, merely as support for my Association and my fellow AKKI Instructors on here.

Les


----------



## rmcrobertson

Sorry, you are collectively completely wrong. I haven't impugned anybody's instructor (for example, I haven't referred to anybody by their last name alone), I haven't been, 'snotty," (I haven't written, "go ask your instructor," certainly) and above all I haven't claimed superior knowledge and then evaded questions about just what that was. 

Ya know, guys, it's just discussion. They're just questions. It's just argument; what's the big deal? You're happy with the guy teaching you and with your individual schools; I think that's great; I'm happy with the guy teaching me and the school I attend; you should think that's great. 

But I'm about tired of asking questions and getting met with hostility and remarks about what people fantasize to be my character, which (again!) I stay away from. For about the 95th time, I do not think what you think I think. I'm just asking: that really is all. I have no real idea what some of you are learning, and I'm simply curious: that's all.

If I meant to criticize anybody, believe me, you wouldn't need to be interpreting. Here's an example: at this point, I've gotten the distinct impression that all this D1/D2 stuff is just hocus-pocus. Why? because every time I've asked what it means--which we academic types do all the time; ask questions and try to provide answers--evasions, character attacks, and now remarks about, "tatum," result. Where I come from, these are signs you haven't got the intellectual goods. 

That clear enough for you? Of course, it's easy to dispel this impression: just explain. Isn't that what these damn forums are supposed to be for?

As for the way I write, well, too damn bad. It's natural to me, and it comes out of the way I've been taught. One symptom, by the way, that the problems with it ain't my problem are the constant mentions of my name whenever spelling and grammatical issues come up. Well, guess what. They are very, very seldom relevant on these forums. They don't matter. Personally, I barely notice them, and I couldn't care less. 

In the first place, these aren't formal papers. In the second, pro writers have editors, little elves who clean up spelling and grammar. In the third, Shakespeare's name was spelled at least 16 different ways in contemporary documents, the Folio first editions of his plays are a mess, AND WHO CARES? 

I certainly don't take spealling and grammar as signs of anybody's intelligence and knowledge, much less their knowledge of kenpo or ability to whup my tail--for example, I'm a much better speller than Clyde, and over the years I have found this to be of remarkably little help on the mats with him. I have also consistently found him to be far more-knowledgeable about the intellectual material of kenpo. And guess what? (Yes, THAT was sarcastic. Finally.) I've never had him evade a question, or tell me that I was being a jerk to ask, or say, "Oh, go ask Larry if you're so interested."

In the fourth place, what counts here is honest writing, details to back things up, and a bit of courtesy. 

But not to worry. This is the third time that I've asked questions about what Mr. Mills teaches, and the third time simple questions have been met with considerable discourtesy. So, I won't be asking anything that--inconvenient--again.

Yep, I am now officially a bit ticked off. Which, for me, means that I will not be posting on this thread again.


----------



## Mace

Robert,
Please email me through the board. I have a website that may answer some of your questions.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Sorry, you are collectively completely wrong. I haven't impugned anybody's instructor (for example, I haven't referred to anybody by their last name alone), I haven't been, 'snotty," (I haven't written, "go ask your instructor," certainly) and above all I haven't claimed superior knowledge and then evaded questions about just what that was.
> 
> Ya know, guys, it's just discussion. They're just questions. It's just argument; what's the big deal? You're happy with the guy teaching you and with your individual schools; I think that's great; I'm happy with the guy teaching me and the school I attend; you should think that's great.
> 
> But I'm about tired of asking questions and getting met with hostility and remarks about what people fantasize to be my character, which (again!) I stay away from. For about the 95th time, I do not think what you think I think. I'm just asking: that really is all. I have no real idea what some of you are learning, and I'm simply curious: that's all.
> 
> If I meant to criticize anybody, believe me, you wouldn't need to be interpreting. Here's an example: at this point, I've gotten the distinct impression that all this D1/D2 stuff is just hocus-pocus. Why? because every time I've asked what it means--which we academic types do all the time; ask questions and try to provide answers--evasions, character attacks, and now remarks about, "tatum," result. Where I come from, these are signs you haven't got the intellectual goods.
> 
> That clear enough for you? Of course, it's easy to dispel this impression: just explain. Isn't that what these damn forums are supposed to be for?
> 
> As for the way I write, well, too damn bad. It's natural to me, and it comes out of the way I've been taught. One symptom, by the way, that the problems with it ain't my problem are the constant mentions of my name whenever spelling and grammatical issues come up. Well, guess what. They are very, very seldom relevant on these forums. They don't matter. Personally, I barely notice them, and I couldn't care less.
> 
> In the first place, these aren't formal papers. In the second, pro writers have editors, little elves who clean up spelling and grammar. In the third, Shakespeare's name was spelled at least 16 different ways in contemporary documents, the Folio first editions of his plays are a mess, AND WHO CARES?
> 
> I certainly don't take spealling and grammar as signs of anybody's intelligence and knowledge, much less their knowledge of kenpo or ability to whup my tail--for example, I'm a much better speller than Clyde, and over the years I have found this to be of remarkably little help on the mats with him. I have also consistently found him to be far more-knowledgeable about the intellectual material of kenpo. And guess what? (Yes, THAT was sarcastic. Finally.) I've never had him evade a question, or tell me that I was being a jerk to ask, or say, "Oh, go ask Larry if you're so interested."
> 
> In the fourth place, what counts here is honest writing, details to back things up, and a bit of courtesy.
> 
> But not to worry. This is the third time that I've asked questions about what Mr. Mills teaches, and the third time simple questions have been met with considerable discourtesy. So, I won't be asking anything that--inconvenient--again.
> 
> Yep, I am now officially a bit ticked off. Which, for me, means that I will not be posting on this thread again. *


Robert,
For what it is worth I was intentionaly skirting what Mr. Mills teaches for I only have the gist of it through my instructor talking about it in relation to what we are doing. I told you a little about it in past postings but we weren't exactly connecting. What I meant by "the way I wrote it..." was my limmited description of the subject. I don't think I can do it justice but just from the word Diagonal I can tell where they are going with the concept. They would not have responded to you if you had not been responding to me; so, that is what I was refering too there. :asian: 
Sean


----------



## rmcrobertson

Sean, thank you for the courteous reply. I owe you a bit of an apology in this regard; I shouldn't have included you, since nothing you wrote was all that big of an issue.

As for looking up a website, I'd have done that if I wanted to know what a website would tell me.  But I'd appreciate the link nonetheless: would you mind posting it on this thread? Thank you,  "Mace."

Apparently, I also should have written that I would post on this thread only in response to polite discussion. Sounds like a good policy, anyway...


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> Robertson
> As for looking up a website, I'd have done that if I wanted to know what a website would tell me.



Ummmm..... or you could call Mr. Mills, as Les suggested.  



> Robertson
> Sorry, you are collectively completely wrong.



Hey look everybody!!!  We are *ALL* wrong about Robert.  Perhaps this has more to do with how you treat people, than with our lack of understanding.


----------



## Seig

Please Keep the conversation polite and respectfull.
-Seig-
-MT Admin Team-


----------



## JD_Nelson

I think this D1/D2 stuff is from the Chiropractor type background.  


not sure really, but I have an idea.


Salute,

JD


----------



## Fastmover

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> *I think this D1/D2 stuff is from the Chiropractor type background.
> 
> 
> not sure really, but I have an idea.
> 
> 
> Salute,
> 
> JD *



Actually it is used widely throughout various sports requiring maximum perfomarnce of the human body. Golf is one example. 
It also can be found within the studies of Kinesiology so it is
hardly something Id call "hocus pocus." Certainly it would 
be benficial to take this proven idea and apply it within our motion
not only to increase performance, but to prevent injury at the 
same time. This is just one example of the innovation that 
has helped evolve the motion of those that are learning the
system in the AKKI.  At the very least it has helped me.


----------



## Snake Pliskin

With regards to D1 and D2 patterns that Robert asked about, to my understanding(limited at best)is that they are extremity patterns that fall into unilateral, bilateral, and trunk patterns. In terms of motor unit facilitation, the greatest demands are placed on a muscle during the performance of unilateral patterns. These patterns are diagonal in nature. Mr Parker said the true aim of kenpo was to round off corners and elongate circles.  That would then translate as moving in diagonals and ellipticals/spirals. Then if moving in these patterns are so important, it stands to reason to apply correct principles of movement and motion to them to effect  proper application.
Within these patterns lie the D1 D2 flexion and extension patterns. There are upper and lower extremity D1F, D1E and D2F, D2E patterns. Flexion and extension could be seen as looking at your hand stretching out your fingers as extension and making a fist as flexion. All diagonals have both a flexor and an extensor direction which is determined by the movement of the shoulder and the hip. These movements include pelvic protraction, retraction, elevation, and depression; Scapular abduction, adduction; Shoulder flexion and extension; Forearm pronation and supination. The knee and elbow, whether flexed or extended, can vary with each pattern. The patterns can be performed in all postures within various techniques. 
What Mr. Mills has done is gain an understanding of all these patterns that guide our movement, no matter the application, to enhance, further innovate, and facilitate motion so effortlessly that it then can take full advantage of the physics(and all its applications) which he outlined in the technique write up for the 3 - 4 inch chop on the AKKI site.  
	I am not a PT and those who read this, please correct me where I am wrong. I am just starting to get some information on this subject. 
Hope this helps


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Snake Pliskin _
> *With regards to D1 and D2 patterns that Robert asked about, to my understanding(limited at best)is that they are extremity patterns that fall into unilateral, bilateral, and trunk patterns. In terms of motor unit facilitation, the greatest demands are placed on a muscle during the performance of unilateral patterns. These patterns are diagonal in nature. Mr Parker said the true aim of kenpo was to round off corners and elongate circles.  That would then translate as moving in diagonals and ellipticals/spirals. Then if moving in these patterns are so important, it stands to reason to apply correct principles of movement and motion to them to effect  proper application.
> Within these patterns lie the D1 D2 flexion and extension patterns. There are upper and lower extremity D1F, D1E and D2F, D2E patterns. Flexion and extension could be seen as looking at your hand stretching out your fingers as extension and making a fist as flexion. All diagonals have both a flexor and an extensor direction which is determined by the movement of the shoulder and the hip. These movements include pelvic protraction, retraction, elevation, and depression; Scapular abduction, adduction; Shoulder flexion and extension; Forearm pronation and supination. The knee and elbow, whether flexed or extended, can vary with each pattern. The patterns can be performed in all postures within various techniques.
> What Mr. Mills has done is gain an understanding of all these patterns that guide our movement, no matter the application, to enhance, further innovate, and facilitate motion so effortlessly that it then can take full advantage of the physics(and all its applications) which he outlined in the technique write up for the 3 - 4 inch chop on the AKKI site.
> I am not a PT and those who read this, please correct me where I am wrong. I am just starting to get some information on this subject.
> Hope this helps *



Very interesting Snake- thanks for sharing your information.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

Between Fastmover and Snake, you've been given about as good a description as you can get without talking directly with Mills or stepping out onto a mat with someone who understands the various patterns.  

Once you figure out what the patterns are, you can begin to incorporate these movements into everything you do.  It is a very arduous process to retrain your movements, but after a little practice you'll be wondering why you weren't using them before.
Luckily, for the up and comers, enough people have access to the information that they will hopefully be given this base from day one instead of having to retrain due to finely ingrained bad habits.  

What's real fun is when you understand them enough to start grafting in and out of the various patterns.  Couple this with the AKKI timing drills and you have a pretty fierce combination.  

These are just a few things that have been introduced, or at least refined, by Mr. Mills and the AKKI Board.


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by Snake Pliskin _
> *With regards to D1 and D2 patterns that Robert asked about, to my understanding(limited at best)is that they are extremity patterns that fall into unilateral, bilateral, and trunk patterns. In terms of motor unit facilitation, the greatest demands are placed on a muscle during the performance of unilateral patterns. These patterns are diagonal in nature. Within these patterns lie the D1 D2 flexion and extension patterns. There are upper and lower extremity D1F, D1E and D2F, D2E patterns. These movements include pelvic protraction, retraction, elevation, and depression; Scapular abduction, adduction; Shoulder flexion and extension; Forearm pronation and supination. The knee and elbow, whether flexed or extended, can vary with each pattern. The patterns can be performed in all postures within various techniques.
> Hope this helps *



What he said!

I could never have explained it so well because I don't fully understand it. But I KNOW it works, and it's NOT hocus pocus.

I couldn't explain necular fusion either, because I don't fully understand it. But I KNOW it works, and it's NOT hocus pocus.

I couldn't explain Quantum Physicis, because I don't fully understand it. But I KNOW it works, and it's NOT hocus pocus.

But to get back to the original subject of the thread, just look at the impact Mr Mills had made here on this forum, and HE didn't even post anything.

Kind of like when you drop a pebble into a pond, and the ripples spread outwards. The thing is, the ripples are bigger/stronger nearest the centre, and they diminish as they spread out.

Here in Europe, I'm one of the furtherest ripples, so I guess that why I can't explain the newer innovations so well. But I KNOW they work, and they're NOT hocus pocus.    

Les


----------



## Goldendragon7

There are many out there working hard on keeping the Art alive...... I don't see it going away in the next few thousand years!


----------



## rmcrobertson

Thank you for the replies; it's more or less what I suspected--with the exception of linking using different muscle groups and flexion/extension to, "rounding off corners," but it's nice to have the more-technical language. 

Isn't it kind of implicit in the way kenpo works anyway, which was what you folks said? I'm afraid I'm not sure that it seems "new," or "evolutionary."

I should also note, since I guess I wasn't clear, that the, "hocus pocus," comment came out of the several evasions of what I had thought was a simple question. It certainly isn't hocus pocus, even though I might find it framed a little over-elaborately. 

Thank you for the courteous responses; I appreciate the info.


----------



## Fastmover

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Thank you for the replies; it's more or less what I suspected--with the exception of linking using different muscle groups and flexion/extension to, "rounding off corners," but it's nice to have the more-technical language.
> 
> Isn't it kind of implicit in the way kenpo works anyway, which was what you folks said? I'm afraid I'm not sure that it seems "new," or "evolutionary."
> 
> *



Since we are all sharing and you understand what is being discussed, maybe you could share how you specifically utilize 
this in Kenpo?

Thanks


----------



## rmcrobertson

"Ask your instructor."













Kinda insulting, ain't it?

I'd be more interested in what you think. I assume that it is, roughly speaking--please note the qualifiers--something I learned a while back and continue to work on: in, say, a back-knuckle, one set of muscles fires the thing out, another brings it back.

When one starts doing, for example, Striking Set 1, things get complex. I'd think that would be a good example of this extensor/flexor usages, especially when you you start developing that set from linear to more-circular movement...

Something I've been working on  for while is interpolating a back-knuckle before the vertical punches to the sides, and trying to continue the circular motions through the punches, the "recoils," from the punches, and on into the following strikes...

Or is that way off?

I'll look forward to finding out what you think, so I can understand the concept.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> Robertson
> "Ask your instructor."
> Kinda insulting, ain't it?



There's the response I expected.  You just can't help yourself, can you?  It's a wonder anyone answers your questions at all.



> I assume that it is, roughly speaking--please note the qualifiers--something I learned a while back and continue to work on: in, say, a back-knuckle, one set of muscles fires the thing out, another brings it back.



Not really.  



> Something I've been working on for while is interpolating a back-knuckle before the vertical punches to the sides, and trying to continue the circular motions through the punches, the "recoils," from the punches, and on into the following strikes...
> 
> Or is that way off?



Good for you, but this isn't really what we're talking about.



> Thank you for the replies; it's more or less what I suspected--with the exception of linking using different muscle groups and flexion/extension to, "rounding off corners," but it's nice to have the more-technical language.
> 
> Isn't it kind of implicit in the way kenpo works anyway, which was what you folks said? I'm afraid I'm not sure that it seems "new," or "evolutionary."



It's not more technical language, rather more detailed instructions on how to perform a specific move and/or combination of moves using these particular patterns.  No it's not Implicit otherwise you would be doing it, and you aren't!!!!  
Before you start arguing," How do you know I'm not???"  I know you aren't using them because neither Clyde nor Mr. Tatum use them, so unless you are studying under someone else in your free time you aren't using them either.


----------



## Fastmover

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"Ask your instructor."
> 
> *




Actually I think you missed what I was saying by ask your instructor. Not
so rude if you consider the argument at hand and your words of choice in
expressing your opinion. Along these lines, you routinely bully your way 
around  on the forum and then when confronted take the roll of the victim. 

Anyway you have been consistently debating the legitimacy of new innovations and 
the roll of some Kenpo instructors in developing them.  If these concepts
were indeed old school  then I was assuming your instructor would already
be aware of these things. He can explain and demonstrate these things far
better then I can describe them on a forum. Was I wrong to recommend this
to you? If your not fully satisfied with the answer and there is something that
truly interest you, then I recommend you search out and train with those who
can help you.

Let me also say this, I know that you have never trained or worked personally
With Mr. Mills and before you go and question the legitimacy of his teachings,
you should search out and educate yourself first hand before questioning what 
he does in a public forum. This would be the respectful thing to do. Until then maybe
it would be beneficial to keep an open mind? 

As I know your style of writing is to have the last word Ill give it to you. Hopefully
your search for knowledge will come with a little more humility in the future.


----------



## Fastmover

"you really shouldn't shoot your mouth off on subjects you know little about. Clyde on Kenponet"

Actually everyone should take his good advice.


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> Isn't it kind of implicit in the way kenpo works anyway, which was what you folks said? I'm afraid I'm not sure that it seems "new," or "evolutionary."
> *



Robert,

Does something have to be 'new' to qualify as evolution?

Assume I live in a small country in the Middle East, and we just got our first power station built.

Now we're using electricity in our country for the very first time.

Isn't out country evolving? 

We Middle Eastern's are pretty excited about this new innovation, (although we can't all explain how it works), but some people in other countries are saying we're not evolving. 

We get upset about this, sharpen our keyboards and go to war with our detractors. (I chose the word 'detractors' specifically)

By the way, we didn't tell the western world, but our's is a nuclear power station. 


Peace Man 


Les


----------



## rmcrobertson

I'm still waiting to read the explanation of what I got wrong. Writing, "No, ha-ha," or, "go look it up," is not an explanation. It's an evasion.

As for "Fastmover's," (hey, at least I use my real name, dude) contention that I am somehow being disrespectful by asking questions, well, I repeat: in the academic world, many (NOT ALL BUT MANY) of the kinds of responses I've seen here are good strong signals that the speaker hasn't a clue. 

As for the, "bullying," contention, well,  I don't seem to recall telling anybody that they had no right to ask a question, or attacking anybody's character, or accusing anybody of being arrogant, or referring to anybody's teacher as, "mills," or any of this other nonsense. 

If you must think of Internet discussion as some kind of fight, OK. Here's how to win. Demonstrate superior knowledge, a better grasp of fact, clearer and more-subtle language, stronger ideas.

Les, to me "evolutionary," implies progress; an advance over the state of things as they are. I realize that there have been reformulations of Darwin's ideas, which are generally thought now to be too wedded to a fantasy of improvement. But isn't a claim of progress, not just change or difference, precisely what's being made here?

Just explain, folks. Then you "win," if your ideas and evidence are good. For example, explain what's wrong with my citation of Striking Set 1 in this context, since that necessarily involves employing different muscle groups to "round off," corners, precisely what I was told this D1/D2 bidness does. Just explain. Then, this other crap is completely unnecessary.


----------



## Brother John

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *As for "Fastmover's," (hey, at least I use my real name, dude) *



Robert-
He does use his first and last name, but you've got to click on "profile" to see Mr. Connolly's full name and location, and rank and art(s). Then, knowing he's in the AKKI, you could go to the AKKI website and find out even more about him perhaps- like the part he plays in the association and other contact info.

Your Brother
John (who's last name is Haag and is located Wichita Ks.)


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

This thread started out as an opportunity to talk about the good things happening in Kenpo.  I actually started it because I wanted to play nice for a while...

So what happened?    I thought Snake Pliskin answered the question and explained some of the unfamiliar terminology?  Is it permissible for somebody to actually like a concept or technique that wasn't in Infinite Insights and isn't taught by a 10th degree from Southern CA?   What are you guys still arguing about?


----------



## rmcrobertson

Same old same old, Alan. Leave my alleged slavishness out of it, and I'll leave--as I always do--whatever I stupidly fantasize are your character/training flaws out of it. 

Meanwhile, if you'll go back and actually read the posts, I thanked the guy for the info, gave what I thought was a reasonably polite statement of my understanding of it, and immediately received back the usual boatload (except from Les, who generally speaking seems to have better manners than me).

I realize that you prob'ly won't buy this, but I'm perfectly open to learning something. It's just that I actually want to learn something from the several people on this thread who know more than I do, not repeatedly get told that I shouldn't be asking, I must be a Bad Person for asking, I have no right to phrase questions the way I phrase questions, and anyway your instructor produces slavish behaviour. 

I simply asked questions and wrote what I thought. Oooh. So what if I'm wrong, or even ignorant? The way to respond to that is to offer information--especially when, sorry, but my initial impression was, "O wow, here's all this stuff I don't know anything about." 

Whyn't you just explain how you see the technical issue, or why I've got it wrong. If I'm so far off--for that matter, if I'm so hidebound, frozen and slavish--it really shouldn't be hard to do.


----------



## Brother John

OFK has an excellent point, it began very positive and got side-tracked far into the woods of negativity by others. Too bad really.

Here's something. The two men that've recieved the most votes thus far are Mr. Tatum and Mr. Mills. There's been several Mr. Mills voters that have come out and talked at length about WHY we voted for him (whether other's agree as to what he's done or not). How about reasons from those who voted for Mr. Tatum? Or for some of the others as well.

NOTE: This is not a challenge, nor am I hoping for any kind of pizzing contest here...just like to get back to why we voted the way we did. 

Lets leave this negativity in the hands of those who started that sticky ball rolling and get back to the thread.
Just a thought...
Your Brother
John


----------



## Rick Wade

I am sticking to my original vote of Mr. Mills.  However, I am looking for someone that is actually changing (for the better) I personally think that is what Mr. Parker wanted (disclaimer I never met Mr. Parker).  I didn't realize it before but Mr. Pick is doing allot of innovate stuff.  He is also teaching allot of new stuff one of which is a new combative system under the American Kenpo umbrella where most things end in a Kill shot (and I'm not talking about racquetball either).  Sounds interesting but I haven't worked with a anyone from his system.  Anyone out there have any experiences with Mr. Pick?  They didn't call him the Hammer for nothing?  

Thanks 
Rick


----------



## Les

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *except from Les, who generally speaking seems to have better manners than me.*



It's not me, it's the medication  

Les


----------



## Rainman

Les said:
			
		

> It's not me, it's the medication
> 
> Les



Can I have some? artyon:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Fastmover said:
			
		

> "you really shouldn't shoot your mouth off on subjects you know little about. Clyde on Kenponet"  Actually everyone should take his good advice.



LOL ....... but then we wouldn't have any forums!

 :uhyeah:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

My vote is for someone not even on the radar yet. Some kid who's just up and coming to get his first big break is going to have a scary-big IQ, and rocket kenpo to the next level with insights and capabilities we haven't seen since...or possibly even before Mr. Parker.  Among all these guys, and some seniors not on the list b/c time has claimed their spirits, Parker never named a successor.  Presumably, it's because none showed the spark of intellect he was looking for prior to placing the philosophers cpae/hhod (can't remember the exact piece of symbolic clothing).  That doesn't mean such an animal didn't exist, it just means he didn't emerge when SGM was still here looking. In myth, messiah figures never emerge from the known priesthood, but manifest from unseen corners breaking onto the scene with undeniable force and impact (Christ, Muhammed, Buddha, figures from greco-roman and hindu myth..up from obscurity, and into the limelight). I think we haven't even heard the name of the most influential figure in kenpo, 10 years from now.  He's probably a 13-year old purple belt at an obscure studio somewhere, and his mind is working a mile a minute during and after class.  IMHO, and with all due respect to the kenpo giants listed among the options.


----------



## Brother John

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> My vote is for someone not even on the radar yet. Some kid who's just up and coming to get his first big break is going to have a scary-big IQ, and rocket kenpo to the next level with insights and capabilities we haven't seen since...or possibly even before Mr. Parker.  Among all these guys, and some seniors not on the list b/c time has claimed their spirits, Parker never named a successor.  Presumably, it's because none showed the spark of intellect he was looking for prior to placing the philosophers cpae/hhod (can't remember the exact piece of symbolic clothing).  That doesn't mean such an animal didn't exist, it just means he didn't emerge when SGM was still here looking. In myth, messiah figures never emerge from the known priesthood, but manifest from unseen corners breaking onto the scene with undeniable force and impact (Christ, Muhammed, Buddha, figures from greco-roman and hindu myth..up from obscurity, and into the limelight). I think we haven't even heard the name of the most influential figure in kenpo, 10 years from now.  He's probably a 13-year old purple belt at an obscure studio somewhere, and his mind is working a mile a minute during and after class.  IMHO, and with all due respect to the kenpo giants listed among the options.



Though my vote was, and remains, Mr. Mills...
I really respect your vote and the reasons you give.
(Here's to you 13year old purple belt...
girl.) :asian: 

Your Brother
John


----------



## Touch Of Death

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> My vote is for someone not even on the radar yet. Some kid who's just up and coming to get his first big break is going to have a scary-big IQ, and rocket kenpo to the next level with insights and capabilities we haven't seen since...or possibly even before Mr. Parker.  Among all these guys, and some seniors not on the list b/c time has claimed their spirits, Parker never named a successor.  Presumably, it's because none showed the spark of intellect he was looking for prior to placing the philosophers cpae/hhod (can't remember the exact piece of symbolic clothing).  That doesn't mean such an animal didn't exist, it just means he didn't emerge when SGM was still here looking. In myth, messiah figures never emerge from the known priesthood, but manifest from unseen corners breaking onto the scene with undeniable force and impact (Christ, Muhammed, Buddha, figures from greco-roman and hindu myth..up from obscurity, and into the limelight). I think we haven't even heard the name of the most influential figure in kenpo, 10 years from now.  He's probably a 13-year old purple belt at an obscure studio somewhere, and his mind is working a mile a minute during and after class.  IMHO, and with all due respect to the kenpo giants listed among the options.


Close, she just turned two in January.
Sean :asian:


----------



## Bill Lear

SThiess said:
			
		

> Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above



Sven,

Even Mr. Parker had an Ego.

-Billy-


----------



## Shiatsu

But nothing like some of the egos of today.  Not to mention instead of one big ego, now you have twenty.


----------



## kenpoworks

We all have an "EGO".
_"*The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree......"*_ you have named some great people in your poll (probably left out a few), all of which have and will continue to impact kenpo.
*".....but the seeds are scattered to the four winds"* the seeds that Mr. Parker has scattered are starting to mature all the time and in some unusual places.



			
				Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Sven,
> 
> Even Mr. Parker had an Ego.
> 
> -Billy-


----------



## Bill Lear

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> We all have an "EGO".
> _"*The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree......"*_ you have named some great people in your poll (probably left out a few), all of which have and will continue to impact kenpo.
> *".....but the seeds are scattered to the four winds"* the seeds that Mr. Parker has scattered are starting to mature all the time and in some unusual places.



I think these are all interesting and valid points. It actually highlights my point a little more. Thank you for your input.

-Billy-


----------



## kenpoworks

NO PROBLEM BILLY, ANY TIME.
RICHY



			
				Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I think these are all interesting and valid points. It actually highlights my point a little more. Thank you for your input.
> 
> -Billy-


----------



## phlaw

Jeff Speakman


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> Jeff Speakman



That's a name we haven't yet seen in this thread.  While I don't know anything about what Speakman is doing these days, I do know that he had a profound influence on kenpo in the early 90's.  Many people who didn't know jack about the martial arts were introduced to Kenpo by Speakman's The Perfect Weapon.  I know that there were quite a few people who joined my school because of this particular movie, including me. 

As I said, I don't know anything about what Speakman is doing.  Perhaps you could let us know what he is doing that will create such a strong impact on our art over the next several years.


----------



## Touch Of Death

phlaw said:
			
		

> Jeff Speakman


Jeff Speakman has already made his impact. He is the Peter Frampton of kenpo, I'm afraid. :asian: 
Sean


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

> He is the Peter Frampton of kenpo



Do you, YOU! feeeeel like we do?


----------



## Touch Of Death

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Do you, YOU! feeeeel like we do?


Speakman Comes Alive!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Parker had a habit of being nice to lost puppies who would follow him home, then capitalize on their association with him.  Used to be a joke about "who's next?"  I remember when Speakman broke on scene, and kenpo lifers were, like, "who?".  My time table is messy from that era of my life, but I remember another stray SGM adopted that kinda flashed in the pan of local consumerism, then vanished. Any body remember "Sir" james Hydrick? Hydrant? Something like that? Liked to break ice a lot and do parlor tricks the Amazing Randi had already debunked from "That's Incredible" years earlier.

Never met Speakman, and here I am flaming the poor guy. Anybody know anything about him, other than his crash course, meteoric rise to fame and glory in Kenpo?

Off to fetch a late lunch and some beer,

Dr. Dave


----------



## Kenpomachine

He's in the semminar tour, and I believe he has a demo team and gives some demos occasionally. I remember seing them two or three years ago. He wasn't a bad kenpoist, had nice words to everyone and give a demo that didn't impress me. But he wasn't technically bad.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> He's in the semminar tour, and I believe he has a demo team and gives some demos occasionally. I remember seing them two or three years ago. He wasn't a bad kenpoist, had nice words to everyone and give a demo that didn't impress me. But he wasn't technically bad.


Thanks.  I was starting to wonder if anyone knew anything about him, aside from his movie appearences. Nice to get a reply.

Dr. Dave


----------



## Bill Lear

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,

Jeff Speakman was a Goju-Ryu stylist that used to train under Mr. Lou Angel. He came over to American Kenpo after attaining his third degree black belt in Goju-Ryu. He trained in the West Los Angeles School under Mr. Larry Tatum until 1988 when Mr. Tatum and Mr. Parker split. After the split he trained under Mr. Parker about once or twice a week until Mr. Parker died in December of 1990.

Jeff Speakman started pursuing an acting career while he was training at the West Los Angeles Studio. As a result, he was cast as the lead role in the Perfect Weapon. Mr. Parker choreographed the movie, but didn't get to see the end result hit the big screen when it was released in 1991.

Jeff Speakman and Bryan Hawkins founded The United Kenpo Systems association in 1994. Many people had a difficult time trying to maintain their membership to the I.K.K.A. after Mr. Parker's passing and these two gentlemen were no exception. Eventually they would have a difference of opinion in regard to the direction of their new association (The UKS), which eventually caused Jeff to leave and start his own association the AKS (American Kenpo Systems).

Jeff Speakman's AKS started going through some major changes over this past year. Its numbers have noticeably decreased recently.

He still does seminars, and I've attended a couple of them. He isn't a bad mover, but you can see the Goju-Ryu influence in his motion. The only thing that disappointed me about Mr. Speakman is that he has a tendency to talk poorly of other associations during his seminars. Other than that... he's just another Kenpo guy dancing to the tune of his own horn. I hope I helped.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Thanks.  I always wondered where he trained, how long, etc., to go from anonymity to self-appointed senior in no time at all. Generally, when you hear of someone starting up their own assn, it a name recognizable in AK for years; I'd never heard of Speakman till the movie came out, and he's one of the most talked about assn's on the web.

Thanks for the 411!

Dr. Dave


----------



## Bill Lear

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Thanks.  I always wondered where he trained, how long, etc., to go from anonymity to self-appointed senior in no time at all. Generally, when you hear of someone starting up their own assn, it a name recognizable in AK for years; I'd never heard of Speakman till the movie came out, and he's one of the most talked about assn's on the web.
> 
> Thanks for the 411!
> 
> Dr. Dave



You're welcome.  :asian:


----------



## marshallbd

Marcus Buonfiglio said:
			
		

> You make a good point Mike and I agree. You can also say that having a lot of experience against an art gives you a good understanding of it.  Although Mr. Pick hasn't trained as a student in any other system he has worked extensively against others who are highly trained in other disciplines. As examples I will use FMA knife and BJJ. These disciplines are prevalent in the military personal that he trains. On a regular basis he is challenged by these solders looking to test their metal against what he teaches. I have been witness to him working with trained UFC fighters countering what they were attempting and taking it to the simulated kill. I have been witness to him working freeform with trained FMA knife combatants and dominating their attack also taking it to the simulated kill. To become proficient at implementing another discipline requires extensive training at that discipline but in my opinion, the key to defeating it is understanding its core principles. Thank you for the dialogue.


All I can say is that I have seen Mr Pick move and I would never ever want to be on the recieving end.  He is my vote for the simple reason is I have never respected someone as much as I do him....He was gracious enough to invite me to train with him in his home (Through stupidity on my part I didn't continue past three or four lessons) and I heard him say once that Kenpo is all he has ever needed or will need..... :asian:


----------



## sumdumguy

Probably some guy no one really has any knowledge of? Who knows? All though this is a cool notion to predict who will and to see all of you defend your Association Leader or instructor, the simple fact is there are far many more people out there than we all realize and the ones that are doing something with the art aren't always the one the like the lime light.
Just my opinion :asian:


----------



## DavidCC

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,
> 
> Jeff Speakman was a Goju-Ryu stylist that used to train under Mr. Lou Angel. He came over to American Kenpo after attaining his third degree black belt in Goju-Ryu. He trained in the West Los Angeles School under Mr. Larry Tatum until 1988 when Mr. Tatum and Mr. Parker split. After the split he trained under Mr. Parker about once or twice a week until Mr. Parker died in December of 1990..


I am attending ou Angel's 50th anniversary (as a martial arts student) Tournament and Banquet this June 4-6 in Joplin, Mo. Jeff Speakman is scheduled to be there, last I heard.

This will be the first tournament I will fight in, and only the second I have ever attended. Wahta noob!

I bought 2 copies of Speakman seminars on Ebay.  I don't know squat about AK but I learned a lot from watching them...  mostly I learned not to f*** with an AK black-belt !

The founder of the shaolin kempo style I study has also worked a lot with Lou Angel, I wnoder if you could see the Goju in our Karazenpo haha we include Goju kata at our post-shodan curriculum.

If you are near Joplin, come see me fight and encourage me!!!


----------



## Touch Of Death

marshallbd said:
			
		

> All I can say is that I have seen Mr Pick move and I would never ever want to be on the recieving end.  He is my vote for the simple reason is I have never respected someone as much as I do him....He was gracious enough to invite me to train with him in his home (Through stupidity on my part I didn't continue past three or four lessons) and I heard him say once that Kenpo is all he has ever needed or will need..... :asian:


It is quite possible I might get to attend one of Mr. Pick's seminars in a few months. I would have to take off work and travel, but it should be cool.
Sean


----------



## marshallbd

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> It is quite possible I might get to attend one of Mr. Pick's seminars in a few months. I would have to take off work and travel, but it should be cool.
> Sean


Be sure and tell us about that experience!  To see him move is an experience, te FEEL him move is a painful experience!
 :asian:


----------



## guito

my vote is for LARRY TATUM .


----------



## OC Kid

I noticed no one has mentioned Mr Bob White. To me he has influenced my martial art life tremdously. 

 He has trained some of the best fighters in the country. Many Many Internationals trouphies in individual and team fighting events. His school is a magnat school for fighters in the SoCal area.


----------



## Brother John

OC Kid said:
			
		

> I noticed no one has mentioned Mr Bob White. To me he has influenced my martial art life tremdously.
> 
> He has trained some of the best fighters in the country. Many Many Internationals trouphies in individual and team fighting events. His school is a magnat school for fighters in the SoCal area.



Mr. White sure is an important person in Kenpo history, no doubt.
And from what I hear, one heck of a fine person too boot.  :asian: 

Your Brother
John


----------



## OC Kid

Yes he is a very nice person. Everyone in his school is very courtesous nice friendly and very well disciplined and taught very well.


----------



## Mark Weiser

Well if I may throw in my two cents worth in the mix. 

The major problem is that most of the senior masters are in their late or mid sixties (those whom were among the Kenpo Students of SGM Parker during the 60's). 

We have to start looking at those whom are currently in the 5th to 8th dan level and are in the age range of 40 to 50 years of age. 

These will soon be the senior masters and will impact Kenpo for the next 20 years. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


----------



## Nick Ellerton

I was Fortunate enough to attend one of Mr Speakmans seminars last year in late november in melbourne, when he and his student Trevor Sherman came out to australia. And i must say it was impressive to see Mr Speakman move but then again its impressive to see any AK black belt move. But i was extremely intrigued as to how trevor sherman moved and just his mear presence was impressive. Mr Speakman is head of the American Kenpo Karate System (AKKS) and is still teaching in lake Arrowhead. And Every 12 months has an seminar in las vegas. But aside from that trevor sherman. Nice man, big man, hard man. Im not really supposed to be a critic but an excellent Kenpoist. Another thing that i wish to add is that there are so many unknown, well not unknown lets say less publicised Instructors in the Art that do not get the recognition in which they all deserve.


----------



## Nick Ellerton

just an observation but i have noticed that there is alot of votes for Mr Tatum and Mr Mills. it is intrigueing to see that there are alot of votes going towards the 'mainstream' instructors in the art. Which is a good thing.


----------



## Les

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> just an observation but i have noticed that there is alot of votes for Mr Tatum and Mr Mills. it is intrigueing to see that there are alot of votes going towards the 'mainstream' instructors in the art. Which is a good thing.



Are you of the opinion that Mr Tatum and Mr Mills are "mainstream" instructors?

Both of these gentlemen have their own unique way of sharing their knowledge, and each is worthy of the praise their students give them.

Larry Tatum recently flew into England in the afternoon, travelled by car for several hours and then taught seminars during the evening. The next morning morning he repeated the car journey and flew out VERY early, to another location in Europe, where he also taught. 

Paul Mills is anything but mainstream. His dedication to sharing his knowledge is phenonemal. I have seen him teach in seminars all day at a camp, and in between them spend his time helping students with their Kenpo. He gives of himself 100%, and has as much time for a Yellow belt as  he has for a high ranking Black Belt.

Les


----------



## Nick Ellerton

Les said:
			
		

> Are you of the opinion that Mr Tatum and Mr Mills are "mainstream" instructors?
> 
> Both of these gentlemen have their own unique way of sharing their knowledge, and each is worthy of the praise their students give them.
> 
> Larry Tatum recently flew into England in the afternoon, travelled by car for several hours and then taught seminars during the evening. The next morning morning he repeated the car journey and flew out VERY early, to another location in Europe, where he also taught.
> 
> Paul Mills is anything but mainstream. His dedication to sharing his knowledge is phenonemal. I have seen him teach in seminars all day at a camp, and in between them spend his time helping students with their Kenpo. He gives of himself 100%, and has as much time for a Yellow belt as  he has for a high ranking Black Belt.
> 
> Les




Ummm i think that you have missinterpereted what i meant. All i was getting at is by mainstream i meant these guys according to the boters on this pole are the ones to whom are going to impact on the art the most and by mainstream i mean the popularity of the instructor, eg larry tatum is probably the most commen cos he is out there offering all he can to the art and those who could potentially be in it. IM not bagging them dude so dont jump on the defensive its cool


----------



## Les

You're right. I did take it completely the wrong way.

Now that you're clarified it I can see what you meant.

Thanks for setting me straight 

Les


----------



## Nick Ellerton

One person that id like to see and no a little more about is one Mr Tommy Chavies. Doesnt seem to be much about him on this thread yet he is beginning to be a rather large influence in Australian American Kenpo.


----------



## scfgabe

I am new to American Kenpo.  However, I have spent quite a wile researching the various groups within the American Kenpo community.  I have been trying to decide which group is the most progressive and dynamic for me to learn the art from.  Without a doubt, I have felt that Paul Mills and the AKKI have what I am looking for, which is good leadership, structure, comraderie, teaching principles and innovation.  I am excited that I have been able to find the AKKI and a local school in which to begin learning the art!

- Gabe


----------



## Brother John

scfgabe said:
			
		

> I am excited that I have been able to find the AKKI and a local school in which to begin learning the art!
> 
> - Gabe



Welcome to the AKKI Bro.
Enjoy!!!!
Your Brother
John


----------



## scfgabe

Thanks for the acknowledgment, Brother John!  This is exactly why the AKKI is the place where I have chosen to train.  Everyone is very supportive of each other.

Take care,

Gabe


----------



## Doc

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> One person that id like to see and no a little more about is one Mr Tommy Chavies. Doesnt seem to be much about him on this thread yet he is beginning to be a rather large influence in Australian American Kenpo.


Look on the tree. He got his black from me in the seventies. Left before I got permission to begin teaching SubLevel Four.


----------



## Simon Curran

I voted other, 

but to clarify, (this is purely a personal opinion) I actually meant every kenpoist I have the fortune to come into contact with will (at least for me) have a huge impact, since I am simply interested in learning as much as I possibly can, whatever the source.
Should this mean that I never make it so far as to be able to call myself instructor/master whatever then so be it, for me the journey is a personal one, and I am relishing every minute of it.
I look forward to meeting as many of the people mentioned in this thread as possible, as well as those not mentioned
Thanks
Simon


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Here's a question...who WILL influence kenpo over the next decade, or...who SHOULD influence it over the next decade. Hmm.


----------



## Simon Curran

Hopefully we all will in our own little way...


----------



## dmdfromhamilton

Adrian roman and his shameless Black Belt for mail with not Even a Video Test


----------



## cushion_kitty

You wrote:
(see The Psychology of Confrontation, The Gift of Fear).


Are the above books, videos, seminars, or what?

(Sorry for any apparent violation of posting rules--this is my very first post!)


----------



## Ginsu

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> just an observation but i have noticed that there is alot of votes for Mr Tatum and Mr Mills. it is intrigueing to see that there are alot of votes going towards the 'mainstream' instructors in the art. Which is a good thing.




Nick,
Just curious why do you see this as a good thing that a lot of votes are going to mainstream instructors? Again only curious.....


_Ginsu_


----------



## Kenpohermit

This is my first post on Martial Talk so please bare with me as I get the hang of it... I voted for Larry Tatum, I am not a member of his organization or anything and I do feel that lots of seniors have done a great deal for Kenpo, but picking all of them was not really what this is about, so I pick Larry Tatum because  (understand this is just my opinion) but I like the outlook his students have on American Kenpo some of his students really impress me and when they explain American Kenpo they dont fall off the deep end. I guess I like that attitude they have and its going to be the students of these people who are going to be the future of Kenpo, All the seniors impress me lol It was a tough choice. 


                                            From: Sami


----------



## KenpoTess

I'm being the odd one out.. I'm going to come back in 10 yrs and answer this 

~Tess


----------



## Gin-Gin

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> I'm being the odd one out.. I'm going to come back in 10 yrs and answer this ~Tess


----------



## Kalicombat

I dont think any of those mentioned in the initial poll will be the person to move kenpo along. They have moved it already and flavored kenpo with their spice. I think we need to look toward some of their students to pick up the torch and impact kenpo. However, I dont think any style merging or changing up techniques will be the medium to impact kenpo in the near future. I think it will be the person or group that brings people back to kenpo. Those that will expose the world to the effectiveness of what kenpo has to offer and not try to re-invent the wheel. The person or persons that can take the curriculum and show people that whatever they are looking for in a self defense system can be found with in the kenpo parameters. Not to say that a TKD practitioner is gonna find their flipping-spinning-blindfolded-upside- down-back kicks here, but that when that kick misses, our strikes and techniques, based on our principles of motion will be there to back up their material. We as kenpoists should not try to find the hidden grappling secrets in our system, but rather show the grapplers how much more effective their system could be with our flavor added to their pot. 

Just my 2 pesos,
Gary C.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I dont think any of those mentioned in the initial poll will be the person to move kenpo along. They have moved it already and flavored kenpo with their spice. I think we need to look toward some of their students to pick up the torch and impact kenpo. However, I dont think any style merging or changing up techniques will be the medium to impact kenpo in the near future. I think it will be the person or group that brings people back to kenpo. Those that will expose the world to the effectiveness of what kenpo has to offer and not try to re-invent the wheel. The person or persons that can take the curriculum and show people that whatever they are looking for in a self defense system can be found with in the kenpo parameters. Not to say that a TKD practitioner is gonna find their flipping-spinning-blindfolded-upside- down-back kicks here, but that when that kick misses, our strikes and techniques, based on our principles of motion will be there to back up their material. We as kenpoists should not try to find the hidden grappling secrets in our system, but rather show the grapplers how much more effective their system could be with our flavor added to their pot.
> 
> Just my 2 pesos,
> Gary C.


You're starting to sound like me, I've advocated that position for so many years only to fall on deaf ears.    Somehow, there's some magic associated with altering the original design.     There are those that understand the material and those that don't, and the latter normally change things to fit them, to the detriment of future AK practicioners.

DarK LorD


----------



## Brother John

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> There are those that understand the material and those that don't, and the latter normally change things to fit them, to the detriment of future AK practicioners.
> DarK LorD


Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.
I believe that Mr. Mills is one of these. 

Your Brother
John 
:asian:


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Brother John said:
			
		

> Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.
> I believe that Mr. Mills is one of these.
> 
> Your Brother
> John
> :asian:


I tell you what John, if you, or any other AKKI member, can show me one new technique in your system that isn't already covered, be it technique, principle or concept, and completely different from the system I do, I'll write a retraction to any all statements I've made concerning the NEW AKKI material and will make no further mention of Mr. Mills or the AkKI in print.

DarK LorD


----------



## Kalicombat

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I tell you what John, if you, or any other AKKI member, can show me one new technique in your system that isn't already covered, be it technique, principle or concept, and completely different from the system I do, I'll write a retraction to any all statements I've made concerning the NEW AKKI material and will make no further mention of Mr. Mills or the AkKI in print.
> 
> DarK LorD



I have to agree with Clyde on this one. All the different EPAK-based systems out there have done nothing at all except re-arrange the EPAK system. Most have deleted a bunch, and changed the order in which movements are executed in a given technique. They say the have "created" new forms, which, I guess they have seeing as how they have strung together some movements, but that is pretty much what we're talking about here. 

What happens when Kenpoist A, takes the curriculum he learned from SGM Parker or one of his first generation students, and changes it, removes the repetitious material, adds some ground work, and calls it "something else KENPO"..... and then, one of his students, we'll call him Kenpoist B, does the same thing after learning Kenpoist A's "new" system, only this time, he removes the repetitous material, adds elements of whatever martial art craze is filling Blackbelt magazine at the time, and calls IT "something-or-other KENPO", different from Kenpoist A's system????? All the while, continuing to call it Kenpo. See where Im going...... Sooner or later, someones gonna say, "hmmm, all these "something-or-other kenpo" systems started with EPAK. Why dont I go look at that system and see what attracted so many people to it". Then you will have the rejuvenation of our kenpo, EPAK, be it the 16 or 24 technique system. Well, if it  hasnt yet started, the rejuvenation that is, it is about to. Go to Ebay and look at all the kenpo systems offering free rank certificates with the purchase of "Something-or-other Kenpo" dvd's, videos, and cd-roms.

The most popular home study EPAK off shoot system out there right now, the IKCA, has a problem something like what I described. An original EPAK'er switched over to the IKCA, I believe he was a 3rd black in EPAK when he did so. He stayed with the IKCA for 11 years and rose to the rank of 7th or 8th. He is an 8th on his website, but I dont know if he got that from the IKCA or not. Now, he has created his own system. It has 110 techniques, blending the best of EPAK and the best of the IKCA material. The IKCA system has 55 techniques, EPAK has 154, so now, where are we at. We have a guy adding material to  a stripped down version of the original. HMMMMM. WHy not just teach EPAK and cover all his bases.

After this lengthy post, what Im getting at, is that innovation, for innovations sake alone, is futile. I'll give another example of what Im trying to say. My wife, NOT ITALIAN, knows that spaghetti is one of my favorite meals in the world. When we first met, she tried to create some fantastic sauces to attract me and satisfy my spaghetti tooth. She had all kind of recipes, and tried them all. When it comes down to it though, all the same ingredients were in each and every tomatoe sauce she tried. Nothing new, no secret recipes, just the basics; tomatoes, garlic, onions, olive oil, and spices. She didnt create a sauce, but simply rearranged the ingredients in varying quantities. After a few months of pretty terrible experimentation, I told her to go to the grocery store and buy some Ragu. The company that makes Ragu has been doing so for along time with much success. She was dissappointed, maybe at the fact that she couldnt beat a commercial sauce in my eyes, maybe that she'd never see any of her sauces bottled up on the shelves of the grocery stores of America, or maybe at the fact that she realized through her experimentation, that ya realy cant do too much to improve on something that doesnt need improved upon.

Gary C.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I have to agree with Clyde on this one. All the different EPAK-based systems out there have done nothing at all except re-arrange the EPAK system. Most have deleted a bunch, and changed the order in which movements are executed in a given technique. They say the have "created" new forms, which, I guess they have seeing as how they have strung together some movements, but that is pretty much what we're talking about here.
> 
> What happens when Kenpoist A, takes the curriculum he learned from SGM Parker or one of his first generation students, and changes it, removes the repetitious material, adds some ground work, and calls it "something else KENPO"..... and then, one of his students, we'll call him Kenpoist B, does the same thing after learning Kenpoist A's "new" system, only this time, he removes the repetitous material, adds elements of whatever martial art craze is filling Blackbelt magazine at the time, and calls IT "something-or-other KENPO", different from Kenpoist A's system????? All the while, continuing to call it Kenpo. See where Im going...... Sooner or later, someones gonna say, "hmmm, all these "something-or-other kenpo" systems started with EPAK. Why dont I go look at that system and see what attracted so many people to it". Then you will have the rejuvenation of our kenpo, EPAK, be it the 16 or 24 technique system. Well, if it hasnt yet started, the rejuvenation that is, it is about to. Go to Ebay and look at all the kenpo systems offering free rank certificates with the purchase of "Something-or-other Kenpo" dvd's, videos, and cd-roms.
> 
> The most popular home study EPAK off shoot system out there right now, the IKCA, has a problem something like what I described. An original EPAK'er switched over to the IKCA, I believe he was a 3rd black in EPAK when he did so. He stayed with the IKCA for 11 years and rose to the rank of 7th or 8th. He is an 8th on his website, but I dont know if he got that from the IKCA or not. Now, he has created his own system. It has 110 techniques, blending the best of EPAK and the best of the IKCA material. The IKCA system has 55 techniques, EPAK has 154, so now, where are we at. We have a guy adding material to a stripped down version of the original. HMMMMM. WHy not just teach EPAK and cover all his bases.
> 
> After this lengthy post, what Im getting at, is that innovation, for innovations sake alone, is futile. I'll give another example of what Im trying to say. My wife, NOT ITALIAN, knows that spaghetti is one of my favorite meals in the world. When we first met, she tried to create some fantastic sauces to attract me and satisfy my spaghetti tooth. She had all kind of recipes, and tried them all. When it comes down to it though, all the same ingredients were in each and every tomatoe sauce she tried. Nothing new, no secret recipes, just the basics; tomatoes, garlic, onions, olive oil, and spices. She didnt create a sauce, but simply rearranged the ingredients in varying quantities. After a few months of pretty terrible experimentation, I told her to go to the grocery store and buy some Ragu. The company that makes Ragu has been doing so for along time with much success. She was dissappointed, maybe at the fact that she couldnt beat a commercial sauce in my eyes, maybe that she'd never see any of her sauces bottled up on the shelves of the grocery stores of America, or maybe at the fact that she realized through her experimentation, that ya realy cant do too much to improve on something that doesnt need improved upon.
> 
> Gary C.


Now this is logical thinking. Thank you for your pragmatic view.

And, to whoever neg repped me as Torquemada, thank your for the compliment,  the Grand Inquisitor of Kenpo .    Shame, you'll never have the clarity of Kenpo that I have.

DarK LorD


----------



## Mark Weiser

I have to agree with ya on this one guys.  I started out learning IKCA system then went out and started looking at all the Videos and Home Study system out here on the web. 

I finally decided that the orginal system of SGM Parker is the only way to go and find an instructor that teaches this system in its entire format. So I will make the trip once a month starting this June and train one on one with one of SGM Parkers first generaton BB's.


----------



## Kalicombat

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> I have to agree with ya on this one guys.  I started out learning IKCA system then went out and started looking at all the Videos and Home Study system out here on the web.
> 
> I finally decided that the orginal system of SGM Parker is the only way to go and find an instructor that teaches this system in its entire format. So I will make the trip once a month starting this June and train one on one with one of SGM Parkers first generaton BB's.




Mark,
   I see you have taken some good advice from JBUGG. Who are you going to be training under? Also, and I know this may ruffle a feather or two, but on your profile, I would definitely delete any mention of Dragon Kenpo. To most of the folks in the Kenpo world, or at least on this and most other forums, Dragon Kenpo is a joke. Not unlike many of the other "GET YOUR BB CERTIFICATE WHEN YOU ORDER OUR VIDEOS" shams being run on the web.

Good luck in your training, 
Gary C.


----------



## Mark Weiser

LOL that is true. As I have said on other postings. When I started looking into SGM Parker system and then looked at my Dragon Kenpo. I almost cried due to the weakness of the system. Matter of Fact it is nowhere near "KENPO" 

The Person I am studying under and it may cause some feathers to ruffle lol. Mike Acord out of Pittsburg/New Castle area Penn state.


----------



## Doc

A reminder that the word "evolution" has no quantitative value and is neither positive nor negative, and simplistically means "change." Evolution is not always positive nor is it necessarily negative. Commercial motion based Kenpo is by design an interpetive curriculum and any instructor that "changes" or "interprets" the material based on his understanding and knowledge is performing the function Mr. Parker outlined for that material. 

The very nature of the curriculum is not cast in stone therefore no one is technically wrong. The good or bad of all teachers, their methodology and knowledge shall be tested against the efficacy of its effectiveness, from the perspective of those who give and accept or reject its worth. Beyond that people are just shouting at fire hydrants. - Move on!

"Experience is the best teacher, but unfortunately it sometimes kills its students." -Ed Parker Sr.


----------



## rmcrobertson

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that last post--even worse, I have to disagree in a rather pedantic way.

Strictly speaking, "evolution," is indeed a morally-loaded term: Darwin intended it to convey a sort of, "every day, in every way, all life is getting better," concept, one with a lot of theological baggage. That's one of the problems with strict Darwinian evolution--it's too purposeful. More recently, Gould and others have pointed out that, "evolution," really isn't going anywhere; it's just happening, much as mentioned above.

But this doesn't mean that there aren't pro-survival and anti-survival traits in some given environment. And in fact in kenpo, there do indeed seem to be such things as folks who are just plain getting it wrong--not because they're evolving, but because they're violating basic concepts and principles to make their evolutions. The difference is that in the biological world, the really fatal mutations get screened out very very soon--before birth, in fact.

However, in martial arts we have the ability to preserve certain lethal genes...with BS, with self-promotion, with creating a mystique, with bullying our students, in all sorts of ways. We can--as in business and the military and academia, I'm sorry to say--set things up so, "efficacy," appears to get tested and never really does. 

I'm also still more than a little dubious about this, "commercial & motion," vs., "real," kenpo thing. First off, I'm not at all sure when this Pure Kenpo existed. And all tghe way in the other direction, I'd say that this is one of those binary oppositions that we endlessly enact and re-enact in ourselves...

Well, I said it was a pedantic objection.


----------



## Kalicombat

Doc said:
			
		

> Commercial motion based Kenpo is by design an interpetive curriculum and any instructor that "changes" or "interprets" the material based on his understanding and knowledge is performing the function Mr. Parker outlined for that material.
> 
> The very nature of the curriculum is not cast in stone therefore no one is technically wrong.
> 
> "Experience is the best teacher, but unfortunately it sometimes kills its students." -Ed Parker Sr.




Doc,
  Im not making a statement as to the validity of SL-4, nor am I inquiring to disprove anything, I am merely trying to expand my knowledge base. The things about sub-level 4 that, in my opinion, have never been made clear to the general kenpo public, is how it is so different then what you refer to as Motion kenpo. You do delayed sword as your first yellow belt technique, so do most EPAK schools you consider motion kenpo schools. Your delayed sword has the same series of movements in it as ours does. As a courtesy to an inquisitive mind, please explain the difference between your delayed sword and ours. 

  When I strike someone I am picking my spot, as are you. I am going for the most painful or vulnerable target to get a specific reaction of either stopping and opponent or to set up my next strike, and so on, and so on. Is it that you have an advanced knowledge of what the strike will do physiologically to an opponent, and we just know that that strike will get the desired effect? Also, the sub level 4 terminology about specific meridians and nerve points which is not normally part of EPAK motion kenpo does provide for a more heady understanding of why striking the inside of someones forearm causes pain, but, anyone that has ever struck an opponent in that spot, has seen his opponent wince in pain. 

   Also, proper body alignment, and body mechanics should be an important and basic part of anyone teaching the EPAK curriculum. I am not sure if SL-4 practitioners are aware that all quality EPAK practitioners utilize these two very important elements in their training, but I was always taught with these in mind. The mystical chi cultivation and other hub-bub that some people try to pass off as something special is nothing more then science. Its all flesh, bones and energy. Proper body alignment will allow for greater speed, power, and enhance ones technique, but it is nothing more then efficient kenpo.

  In closing, while I am in no position to question your system or your teachings. I am merely, as previously stated, trying to expand my knowledge.

Gary Catherman


----------



## distalero

Just to add my swirl in the frosting, by definition if you can E-volve relative to some reference point(s), you can DEvolve by this same point (or another, if you chose). So what it is and what it's doing "rests", if you can use this term for something that is in constant motion, on an commonly accepted set of criteria, and depends on the individual's viewpoint (as Doc mentioned). This is the narrower view, though. If you take the larger view, then you realize that the reference points, and indeed the reference point takers (us) are just as arbitrary, even within our own arguments, because we're in motion too, and won't be here much longer at any rate. So........wait, I think I just made a case for Motion Kepo being ultimately the dominant form. What have I done.


----------



## Kalicombat

distalero said:
			
		

> Just to add my swirl in the frosting, by definition if you can E-volve relative to some reference point(s), you can DEvolve by this same point (or another, if you chose). So what it is and what it's doing "rests", if you can use this term for something that is in constant motion, on an commonly accepted set of criteria, and depends on the individual's viewpoint (as Doc mentioned). This is the narrower view, though. If you take the larger view, then you realize that the reference points, and indeed the reference point takers (us) are just as arbitrary, even within our own arguments, because we're in motion too, and won't be here much longer at any rate. So........wait, I think I just made a case for Motion Kepo being ultimately the dominant form. What have I done.



Hey man, walk away. Slowly, but with conviction, put down the lighter, and walk away.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Agreeing with "Distalero," (I think...but last time I agreed with him, he was just all gosh-darn cranky about it) the problem is that evolution doesn't have anything at all to do with what's right or wrong, or (in this case) what would work best and allow people to survive in "combat" (Possibly the most-abused word in martial arts).

Translating what Mr. Chap'el wrote a little bit more than a lot, our problem is that in a wholly-commercialized environment, "what works," is a lot more like, "what sells," than like, "what helps you survive on the street." ("Street," being possibly the most-abused word in martial arts.) We're not in 17th-century Japan; we're in a capitalist society, and we don't whip out a sword, we whip out (no, not that either) American Express.

It's quite possible that the form of kenpo that survived our time and evolves, given what our world really is, would end up being the exact equivalent of the duck-billed platypus.

Meaning, of course, no offense to the platypus...


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I have to agree with Clyde on this one. All the different EPAK-based systems out there have done nothing at all except re-arrange the EPAK system. Most have deleted a bunch, and changed the order in which movements are executed in a given technique. They say the have "created" new forms, which, I guess they have seeing as how they have strung together some movements, but that is pretty much what we're talking about here.
> 
> What happens when Kenpoist A, takes the curriculum he learned from SGM Parker or one of his first generation students, and changes it, removes the repetitious material, adds some ground work, and calls it "something else KENPO"..... and then, one of his students, we'll call him Kenpoist B, does the same thing after learning Kenpoist A's "new" system, only this time, he removes the repetitous material, adds elements of whatever martial art craze is filling Blackbelt magazine at the time, and calls IT "something-or-other KENPO", different from Kenpoist A's system????? All the while, continuing to call it Kenpo. See where Im going...... Sooner or later, someones gonna say, "hmmm, all these "something-or-other kenpo" systems started with EPAK. Why dont I go look at that system and see what attracted so many people to it". Then you will have the rejuvenation of our kenpo, EPAK, be it the 16 or 24 technique system. Well, if it hasnt yet started, the rejuvenation that is, it is about to. Go to Ebay and look at all the kenpo systems offering free rank certificates with the purchase of "Something-or-other Kenpo" dvd's, videos, and cd-roms.
> 
> The most popular home study EPAK off shoot system out there right now, the IKCA, has a problem something like what I described. An original EPAK'er switched over to the IKCA, I believe he was a 3rd black in EPAK when he did so. He stayed with the IKCA for 11 years and rose to the rank of 7th or 8th. He is an 8th on his website, but I dont know if he got that from the IKCA or not. Now, he has created his own system. It has 110 techniques, blending the best of EPAK and the best of the IKCA material. The IKCA system has 55 techniques, EPAK has 154, so now, where are we at. We have a guy adding material to a stripped down version of the original. HMMMMM. WHy not just teach EPAK and cover all his bases.
> 
> After this lengthy post, what Im getting at, is that innovation, for innovations sake alone, is futile. I'll give another example of what Im trying to say. My wife, NOT ITALIAN, knows that spaghetti is one of my favorite meals in the world. When we first met, she tried to create some fantastic sauces to attract me and satisfy my spaghetti tooth. She had all kind of recipes, and tried them all. When it comes down to it though, all the same ingredients were in each and every tomatoe sauce she tried. Nothing new, no secret recipes, just the basics; tomatoes, garlic, onions, olive oil, and spices. She didnt create a sauce, but simply rearranged the ingredients in varying quantities. After a few months of pretty terrible experimentation, I told her to go to the grocery store and buy some Ragu. The company that makes Ragu has been doing so for along time with much success. She was dissappointed, maybe at the fact that she couldnt beat a commercial sauce in my eyes, maybe that she'd never see any of her sauces bottled up on the shelves of the grocery stores of America, or maybe at the fact that she realized through her experimentation, that ya realy cant do too much to improve on something that doesnt need improved upon.
> 
> Gary C.


 
I take it you're referring to this guy.

http://www.pbkka.com/


DarK LorD


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Im not making a statement as to the validity of SL-4, nor am I inquiring to disprove anything, I am merely trying to expand my knowledge base. The things about sub-level 4 that, in my opinion, have never been made clear to the general kenpo public, is how it is so different then what you refer to as Motion kenpo. You do delayed sword as your first yellow belt technique, so do most EPAK schools you consider motion kenpo schools. Your delayed sword has the same series of movements in it as ours does. As a courtesy to an inquisitive mind, please explain the difference between your delayed sword and ours.
> 
> When I strike someone I am picking my spot, as are you. I am going for the most painful or vulnerable target to get a specific reaction of either stopping and opponent or to set up my next strike, and so on, and so on. Is it that you have an advanced knowledge of what the strike will do physiologically to an opponent, and we just know that that strike will get the desired effect? Also, the sub level 4 terminology about specific meridians and nerve points which is not normally part of EPAK motion kenpo does provide for a more heady understanding of why striking the inside of someones forearm causes pain, but, anyone that has ever struck an opponent in that spot, has seen his opponent wince in pain.
> 
> Also, proper body alignment, and body mechanics should be an important and basic part of anyone teaching the EPAK curriculum. I am not sure if SL-4 practitioners are aware that all quality EPAK practitioners utilize these two very important elements in their training, but I was always taught with these in mind. The mystical chi cultivation and other hub-bub that some people try to pass off as something special is nothing more then science. Its all flesh, bones and energy. Proper body alignment will allow for greater speed, power, and enhance ones technique, but it is nothing more then efficient kenpo.
> 
> In closing, while I am in no position to question your system or your teachings. I am merely, as previously stated, trying to expand my knowledge.
> 
> Gary Catherman


Gary:

I will always suggest that someone take no ones word as the existence of this or that mountain. A brutal error of faith is committed whenever anyone person takes some other persons word for a thing. I would encourage you, should you find yourself in So. Cal., to stop by Docs bat-cave sometime and see for yourself the differences between his delayed sword and, well, any other delayed sword out there. I pinned up a rather length post at the kenpotalk beta site regarding some of the differences btw SL4 & "commercial" kenpo. I'll spare the present readers a re-post of that. I would encourage you to give it a glance some time, and relate your thoughts.  More importantly, I would encourage you to come by and have a learning experience that I abso-friggin-lutely guarantee will reveal dimensions to kenpo application that you have not seen, & have not occurred to you.

The "acu-flap" (words used to describe a thing) is not what sets SL4 apart. It's what the acu-flap is trying to describe. Text on a screen doesn't really cut it. You gotta see it. And even then, you won't really get what you're seeing, until you jump on the mat, put in the time whittling away at details, and feel it. I have learned Doc's delayed sword...it's about the 6th or 7th version of delayed sword I've been exposed to. And there are enough advanced kenpo concepts embedded in it to keep you re-evaluating and re-interpreting the rest of your kenpo for months and months.

As for having the same cirriculum...find yuor way to te kenpotalk site, and you'll see what thee is to be said about that.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Doc

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Im not making a statement as to the validity of SL-4, nor am I inquiring to disprove anything, I am merely trying to expand my knowledge base. The things about sub-level 4 that, in my opinion, have never been made clear to the general kenpo public, is how it is so different then what you refer to as Motion kenpo.


Hey Gary how have you been? Good to see you active here. Many are confused about the motion-kenpo term, which I first heard from Ed Parker Sr. Others have posted and said they heard him use the term as well. I only use it to show a distinction in teaching philosophies. His commercial art according to him and most agree is based on motion so it speaks for itself. SL-4 like all arts move but it is not simply based on moving but is deeply rooted in the how you move based on the science of efficient human locomotion. Motion-kenpo tells you what to do, not how. Dynamic human movement requires specific methodologies to execute any action at its most effectiveness and the variables make it fairly impossible to discover the how. There must be a sound educational and physical foundation that doesnt appear to exist in Kenpo, or the martial arts in general.


> You do delayed sword as your first yellow belt technique, so do most EPAK schools you consider motion kenpo schools.


Actually we dont but, that is a minor point.


> Your delayed sword has the same series of movements in it as ours does.


Actually there are mechanisms inherent in the way Delayed Sword is done as I understand it, that do not appear to be a part of specific kenpo or general martial arts knowledge.


> When I strike someone I am picking my spot, as are you.


Well than I would ask you what are the criteria for what you hit and how do you achieve it?


> I am going for the most painful or vulnerable target to get a specific reaction of either stopping and opponent or to set up my next strike, and so on, and so on. Is it that you have an advanced knowledge of what the strike will do physiologically to an opponent, and we just know that that strike will get the desired effect? Also, the sub level 4 terminology about specific meridians and nerve points which is not normally part of EPAK motion kenpo does provide for a more heady understanding of why striking the inside of someones forearm causes pain, but, anyone that has ever struck an opponent in that spot, has seen his opponent wince in pain.


Well anyone can cause blunt force trauma without any training at all.


> Also, proper body alignment, and body mechanics should be an important and basic part of anyone teaching the EPAK curriculum. I am not sure if SL-4 practitioners are aware that all quality EPAK practitioners utilize these two very important elements in their training, but I was always taught with these in mind.


I am aware that everyone says they use alignment and structural integrity, however I have never seen anyone who actually did it in Kenpo techniques other than my teacher relative to the level I am accustomed to.


> The mystical chi cultivation and other hub-bub that some people try to pass off as something special is nothing more then science.


I absolutely agree with you.


> Its all flesh, bones and energy. Proper body alignment will allow for greater speed, power, and enhance ones technique, but it is nothing more then efficient kenpo.


Agreed, but than you explain to me HOW you achieve structural integrity in a neutral bow as an example.


> In closing, while I am in no position to question your system or your teachings. I am merely, as previously stated, trying to expand my knowledge.


Gary I never take offense to genuine inquiries and you have always been stand up as far as I have known you over the years online. The truth is, it is really hard to explain in writing. Somewhere in MT archives I have already done this at length, but check out Dr. Crouchs recent post to the question over on KenpoTalk. He brings a fresh perspective from someone who has studied "other" kenpo along with many other combative arts. That and his advanced degrees relative to human anatomy gives him particular insight. http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23
He was curious like you and made his way to my location last year and we talked, poked, prodded, and pushed until the lights came on and we both learned something.


----------



## Kalicombat

Doc,
   Thanks for the reply and more importantly, thanks for referring me to the post on Kenpotalk. This gives me alot of the information I was looking for. Thank you,
Gary Catherman.


----------



## Kalicombat

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I take it you're referring to this guy.
> 
> http://www.pbkka.com/
> 
> 
> DarK LorD



Clyde,
   Yes, this is the guy. Kind of strange how he has arrived at creating his own system. I mean, after spending enough time and having the fortitude to learn EPAK, then walk away from it to go with the IKCA and its 55 techs, only to turn around and add another 55???? HMMMMMM. I can understand a person learning IKCA, then exanding out and learning EPAK to further satisfy ones kenpo craving, but to walk away  from EPAK for an inferior system like the IKCA makes no sense in the first place. 

Gary C.


----------



## distalero

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Agreeing with "Distalero," (I think...but last time I agreed with him, he was just all gosh-darn cranky about it)...
> 
> ...




I wasn't FEELING cranky, so my apologies, sir. The most I can work up these days is "vaguely irritated". I'd never shout at a fire hydrant (mostly because it's a probable 72 hour hold ). I always enjoy your posts, albeit sometimes finding myself yangin' to your yinin' (or, if you're gender sensitive, the other way around). The only point I could mention, though, is that even cranky people can speak the truth (in fact they have a fairly high average), so that would just be a matter of packaging, and not content. Looking forward to your future observations.


----------



## Brother John

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I tell you what John, if you, or any other AKKI member, can show me one new technique in your system that isn't already covered, be it technique, principle or concept, and completely different from the system I do, I'll write a retraction to any all statements I've made concerning the NEW AKKI material and will make no further mention of Mr. Mills or the AkKI in print.
> 
> DarK LorD


This is all I said: 





> Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.


..and then I said that I think Mr. Mills is one such person.
 I made my point and stated my opinion. I don't care that you don't accept it. In fact, I knew you wouldn't. But _it_'s not all about _You_ Clyde.

I have no interest in trying to "show" you anything. Quite frankly, though I think you are a good guy in general (having met you, having seen your willingness to help people and also knowing people that know you), I don't see you as being very open to learning anything from someone that you already differ with. *IF* I _cared_ to prove anything to you (which I don't) I doubt you'd learn a thing, regardless of the 'proof'. I find you to be very closed minded. Not real 'teachable'.

I could care less if you print a retraction of posts/replies about Mr. Mills or the AKKI... the worth and efficacy of each being intrinsic; ie, beyond being effected by your words. Double your posts/replies about either.  :idunno: _Everyone's_ gotta have a hobby.   

have a great kenpo day (I've always liked that)
Your Brother
John



> "There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em." Luis Armstrong


----------



## rmcrobertson

While I agree that Clyde can be very Clydeish, just as I can be very--well, like myself--I have to say that a) knowledge should be pretty much free to anyone; b) you'll be a lot better off simply giving an example or two, then allowing the other guy to look the fool if he's going to.

I've seen this sort of argument before, more than twice, in academics and here in martial arts--and well, to be blunt, it's crap. For one thing, it's a lot easier to simply explain than it is to run around the bush three times widdershins like this; economy of motion, don't you know. So, when one doesn't explain...it's something I catch myself doing from time to time. You know: the summoning of one's own authority, or the appeal to secret knowledge, or the suggesting that the other guy's too much of a dummy--all a kind of bullying, done to avoid saying, "Gee, I dunno." or, "Hm--maybe you have a point."

I meant it: as a pretty good teacher myself, I constantly have to fight against my own desire to assert authority and stay stuck where I am, rather than to change...as witness the entry, "Side-Kicks," on the technical kenpo forum here. I think I'm right, but I'm also trying to avoid re-thinking and improving.

Or to say the same thing another way, whatever the state of one's knowledge, writing that, "You're just too morally and intellectually dumb to understand the perfected state of cosa nostra," tends to make us look like phonies. And this has not much to do with the state of one's knowledge--it has to do with what "Gourmet," calls, "presentation." Looks bad, tastes bad, whatever the truth happens to be. Any kid who's ever got stuck with the slice of meatloaf with the charred end knows that.

Or for the folks who read this and want to start snerting about me--because it's all about me--well, try this one. When you see this sort of discussion, who's describing techniques in detail, tying those descriptions to such things as particular examples from forms and sets and the like, trying to explain particular aspects of kenpo's development over time, attempting to discuss practical issues from teaching to self-defense--and who's throwing cliches around ("to feel is to believe"), appealing to the total authority of their perfect, ineffable knowledge ("when you've been on the street as long as I have..."), sprinkling mystic pixie-dust on the discussion ("if you'd understood chi...."), and if all else fails, attacking the character of the freak who had the temerity to ask a question and expect an answer?

We all do it, when we're not on or feel hassled. Arguably, these tendencies in argument are irreducible: we couldn't talk to each other without slipping into them.

Then there are issues having to do with expression--for example, there are people who know a lot and have no gift for expressing what they know, just as there are people with the gift for expression who don't know jack. Me, I'm still bouncing between those extremes.


----------



## MJS

Guys, rather than take personal shots at each other, lets try to keep this thread on topic.

Mike


----------



## sac-ked

I've only been involved in EPAK for a little over a year now, so I will give you a new student's point of view. My instructor, Tom Rondeau, has impacted MY life with his insights, concepts, ideas, etc. More globally, I have had the pleasure of training with Tom's instructor, Skip Hancock. This was about four months ago when Skip came to the New England region and held training sessions. Skip's website is kenpo2000 and is worth a look. Skip has written books with SGM Parker and continues to refine the art. So my vote is two-fold. First Tom Rondeau, Wyndham County Kenpo Karate Woodstock, CT and more globally, Skip Hancock Kenpo2000, everywhere. 


I will be training with Skip next week in Acton, MA and the following week in Woodstock, CT. If you are from the area and would like info of these dates let me know. sac-ked@sbcglobal.net

Brian.


----------



## Rick Wade

After much thought on this :deadhorse topic.  I have finally realized who will definately impact Kenpo the most even I have posted previosly That I think it would be Mr. Pick.  I am changing my answer I think we will be us.  It will be the kenpoist like us adults with about 10-13 years of experience and that keep on training.  For then we will be the Seniors.  Not being cocky just realistic.  

V/R

Rick English
forever the student.


----------



## bayonet

Yeah Rick,

 I believe your right. Who else besides us? Who will carry on AK? Plenty of practioners will. But time will tell. AK will carry on through CLyde O' Briant and Rick Jeffcoat and Juan Serrano. So Cal is Covered. But the rest of the country needs other people to carry on such as myself, here in Maui, Visconti and Lamphere and PLANAS. Huk says the base move is the "meat"> 154 techniques and you can't figure out grafting or blending or borrowing, what the hell have you been doing the past 4 years? Please Reply. In my opinion AK is just getting started.





Joshua


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> While I agree that Clyde can be very Clydeish, just as I can be very--well, like myself--I have to say that a) knowledge should be pretty much free to anyone; b) you'll be a lot better off simply giving an example or two, then allowing the other guy to look the fool if he's going to.
> 
> I've seen this sort of argument before, more than twice, in academics and here in martial arts--and well, to be blunt, it's crap. For one thing, it's a lot easier to simply explain than it is to run around the bush three times widdershins like this; economy of motion, don't you know. So, when one doesn't explain.


I disagree, knowledge isn't free, it must be gotten. To do this one must seek it out and obtain it for ones self. That's what I think.  
As to your second point Robert, Clyde has gone seeking answers about the AKKI and the way we do things... and he's gotten good answers from better people than myself...but as I said, he's closed to such "examples" or even demonstrations. I was present when many of his questions were answered and many personal demonstrations were given just for him... but he remained opposed. I say for political and egotistic reasons.
So no, giving him examples here would be to further beat my head against a wall. 
The argument isn't "crap" as you say... to me, it's not an argument. I said was: 





> Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.


 and that I feel that Mr. Mills is one such person. He took strong issue with it and talked about his posts concerning Mr. Mills and the AKKI. 
The argument is his.
I don't care if he agrees with me or not and I don't really care if he totally changes his mind about it all. SO...with that in mind, why should I strive to convince him or give 'examples'?? It didn't work in the past, it won't work now. Not because of the message, but because of the bias of the intended reciever.

I only wrote this so that neither you nor others think I'm trying to claim things that can't be backed up with examples. It can.
The willing can learn.
The unwilling cannot.
I don't want to waste any more time w/the later.

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

Good to know that you're completely unprejudiced and completely open-minded.


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Good to know that you're completely unprejudiced and completely open-minded.


Never said I was perfect. I do listen to the reasoning of others. Can you say I do otherwise?? No, you don't know me, never tried. I'm quite openminded...or at least I try to be, but that's not the point. (nice side track from our side track there)

I said something that didn't involve or imply Clyde, he took issue with it. I disagreed with him. You took issue with me with on my disagreement...I continued to reply.
It's silly, on both sides of the isle.

Listen, the mods have requested nicely that we keep on the subject. I know from experience that I'm not going to change your mind and vice versa...right Robert? So hows about lets follow their advice. 
I've said what I wanted to say. 
If you still have a horse in this race, by all means...keep going.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Rich Parsons

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Good to know that you're completely unprejudiced and completely open-minded.



Yes, it would be nice, if everyone was unprejudiced and completely open-minded, but alas it is not so.


----------



## JenniM

howardr said:
			
		

> Somebody else: Dr. Chapel
> 
> I'm not entirely sure that my response to this poll is accurate because Dr. Chapel doesn't expend a lot of energy spreading his approach. I guess my vote would be more along the lines of, "Who _should_ or who _would you like to see_ impact EPAK in the next 10 years?"


Yep Dr Chapel gets my vote - the reasons you listed were spot on and have my full endorsement - as for "spreading his approach" this is something that I believe is now beginning to happen - as I am posting this Dr Chapel is in Ireland giving Seminars and will then be back to the UK for more - I have attended his Seminars and have seen the impact he has on students and Instructors alike - if you can get to one you won't be disappointed - and yes I love his sense of humour


----------



## rmcrobertson

For lo, "Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it." Sheesh, Tolkien much?

Hey, here's my horse--as a teacher of writing, I understand what it means when folks get all fuzzy in language, and appeal to vague sentiments and Big Ideas.

Still waiting, weeks later, for the simple explanation of what's more advanced....you know, as in the opposite of, "I can speaketh not unto the spirits, this fateful eve...thy doubt has disturb-ed the astral plane, and mine Spirit Guide availeth thee naught at this critical juncture of synchronicity."


----------



## Brother John

> Tolkien much?


Sorry Robert, your sarcasm is lost on me. Where's the Tolkien reference? Was it because I used the words "Not all who...", and you're whipping out your Lit professor phalus for all to see by corresponding this to Gandalf's speech on those who deserve either life or death??  How very.... _like you_...to take something from what someone wrote, ignore any of the content and attempt to belittle it or ignore it's intended message by trying to make it seem like a trivial mock "Tolkien" phrase or some such. 
Sheesh indeed.

I guess I can at least thank the evenstar that you aren't highlighting my poor spelling. It tends to be pretty bad you know.  (but I don't care. Grade me down teach) 
"Do not meddle in the afairs of those impressed with their own academic-biceps, for they are trifling and quick to anger."
Quick Rob....where's that from?
((By the way Rob, if you continue to KEEP reminding us all that you are an "English Professor" and all about your academic credentials... it really gets to seem like you are either trying to impress us...and it doesn't...or you are trying to convince yourself.
Hows that going by the way? Interesting approach, yours. Most men your age try this life diversion with a mistress and a fast red sports-car.))

My reply before this has been there for some time now, did'ja get bored? Wanted to drum up an old fight?


> Hey, here's my horse--as a teacher of writing, I understand what it means when folks get all fuzzy in language, and appeal to vague sentiments and Big Ideas.


YOU? A teacher of writing? Why...I didn't know that.
Didja hear that folks?? Little Bobby's all grow'd up now and he's teach'n writing.
Good for you!
Yes. Obviously you know all about fuzzy language and appealing to vague sentiments and big ideas. Thing is, you bandy this particular familiarity of yours out there, insinuating that that's exactly what those with whom you disagree are doing. Yet you're seldom real specific, are you??
hmm
Tell me Rob...did I ever say I was doing anything *but* stating my own opinion, thoughts and feelings on anything? Did I say that I was telling something that was quantifiable? OBVIOUSLY this statement: 


> Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.


 Is my own opinion. So what? Now you jump up with the astounding revelation that you disagree with me? *SHOCKER!!!* _I didn't see that one coming!_
Next thing you know Clyde's gonna disagree with me too. Then where will I be?



> Still waiting, weeks later, for the simple explanation of what's more advanced


Well Rob, you've asked such questions before on this forum and others, people more informed and well spoken (ok....written) than I have given you very good answers (I've read most of them); and you've rejected each....a rejection based (I pose) entirely on your own bias and little more. 
Oh well. :idunno:
Thing is, you won't accept my explanation any more than you'd accept theirs.
BUT: Here's the good news. I don't give a _Shim-shimeny!!_ I've got a list of people who's opinions, critiques and 'sentiments' matter an ounce to me.... a very short list. You sir aren't even close to being on it.

So you can just go on waiting, and waiting. Because in truth, you aren't waiting to hear an honest answer. No, that's been given. You, I think, are waiting to hear one of two things: either something to coincide with your own existing biases or something to cause you're next disagreement.... so you can again show us your righteous disdain for the intellectually inferior. (Star-Trek reference if you are interested, Khan) In dealing with you, Robert, I suggest that people who see things differently keep Luis Armstrong's quote in mind:


> >   "There are some people, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em."





> what's more advanced....you know, as in the opposite of, "I can speaketh not unto the spirits, this fateful eve...thy doubt has disturb-ed the astral plane, and mine Spirit Guide availeth thee naught at this critical juncture of synchronicity."


All hail Robert and his intellectual....
you know....
thingie.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> For lo, "Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it." Sheesh, Tolkien much?
> 
> Hey, here's my horse--as a teacher of writing, I understand what it means when folks get all fuzzy in language, and appeal to vague sentiments and Big Ideas.
> 
> Still waiting, weeks later, for the simple explanation of what's more advanced....you know, as in the opposite of, "I can speaketh not unto the spirits, this fateful eve...thy doubt has disturb-ed the astral plane, and mine Spirit Guide availeth thee naught at this critical juncture of synchronicity."



HAHAHA! Robert it is good to see that after weeks you are waiting to hear what we are doing. If you were really interested you would physically seek information in person. 

Your resistence to change is interesting given the fact that you study a system that was totally changed by its founder. But...around and around we could go.....I do not think we will never agree philosophically about Kenpo so lets talk about something more practical.

I did watch the video of you on Jason Bugg's web sight. It is good to finally put a face to your words and to see your level of movement. Specifically it is interesting that you changed many of the techniques trying to be innovative with your presentation.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Folks this is to all posting in this thread

Moderator Note
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). 

Thank you.

Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Brother John

Thanks Sheldon.
Sorry you had to do that, but ignoring *is* what I should have done.
Your Brother
John


----------



## Bode

Damn, the entertainment ended!  Oh well, there are other sites where I can read peoples arguments. I must say though, we all get caught up in it at some point or another. I know I have. 

 Seriously, I like the professionalism of the posts on MartialTalk. Sheldon keeps the site focused and cordial. Much appreciated.


----------



## rmcrobertson

On a thread about teachers and their influences, the mean-spirited  remarks about, "little Bobby," and the rest--well, they sure go a long way to explain what sort of influence one has chosen to be. 

Thanks, I guess, for the note of how I looked on camera. Personally, I hate doing that stuff--I thought Cliff and Angie looked way better, but you know, I wasn't bad. 

I was a bit rude; my mistake, and my apologies. But I get tired of the pomposity. And a couple of you guys owe profuse apologies in return, though you do not know it; however rude I was, it didn't begin to approach that nonsense.


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Thanks, I guess, for the note of how I looked on camera. Personally, I hate doing that stuff--I thought Cliff and Angie looked way better, but you know, I wasn't bad.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> First Robert you are to be congratulated for changing the techniques and using some creativity in your presentation. I didn't think you had it in you. LOL! I purposely did not say anything positive or negative about you on video for a reason. I do not think you or the moderators would want this thread to go in that direction. Besides what do you care what I and others think as long as you and your instructor are happy.


----------



## Brother John

Robert
I was a bit rude in response, I shouldn't have gone that far. I guess Mr. Parker was right, attitude breeds attitude. My apologies for going too far, especially getting personal. That was out of line.
Not all things that are thought or felt _should_ be expressed.

As for what kind of influence I have chosen to be:
as you've adequately pointed out before, the internet is a pseudo-social environment and our interactions here have little bearing on how we conduct ourselves "in REAL life". When I'm dealing with people face to face I don't react so much from the gut, though I remain aware of gut reactions. Likewise I'd doubt that in person, while discussing things with people, you correct spelling and grammar or try to make the statements of others seem irrelevent because a few chosen words resemble a popular line from literature. In person I'm sure I'd just ignore and avoid you if you made me upset... here, it's as though we were having a debate before MANY people..and when I feel slighted or sneered at, repeatedly, it builds up...so I respond in kind. You percieve me as being pompus, *and I do You*. _Who's right?_
*probably both.*​
oh well. 
Fastmover was right, it was interesting to see you move in that video clip.
Takes guts to show your kenpo on video on the internet.
Lots of guts.

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

Leaving other matters aside, I didn't change the techniques...I wasn't doing the techniques, nor is that the point.

The techniques are a scaffolding, an ideal framework that can be (doesn't have to be, but can be) gotten rid of, in the end...but the point isn't to change the techniques, or to, "evolve," them--the point is to change youself, to evolve personally.

If you think that I've argued that the techniques are unchangeable, you don't understand what I've been writing. What I've been writing is that the techniques (and the sets, and the forms, and the basics), ought to be left alone until one understands them, and has internalized 'em pretty well.

Then by all means develop...that's the whole point of, "sophisticated basics," and similar concepts in kenpo. 

But to change techniques, etc.--and I'm writing, "etc.," because from what I've seen on the Internet and elsewhere, it isn't just the techniques that get changed and thrown out--without much better reasons than quick technical fixes is, I think, a mistake. There are other things than technique engraved into a good martial arts system, and fiddling with the surface stuff fiddles with the deeper stuff. 

Anyway, though--to correct a polite misunderstanding--no guts involved. The tape of the 2000, "Heart of the Art," was put up there without my knowledge or permission, which I wouldn't have given, wotthell.


----------



## BruceCalkins

Paul Mills is fantastic and his "To Feel is To Believe" Moto is one I live by. But my vote would have to go to Kyoshi Robert Austin of Co. His IBBA schools have offered some of the finest Parker Kenpo I have ever seen. I had the honor of training with one of his members Sensei Robert koch of Alden NY. and have the honor of knowing Kyoshi Austin personally and have trained with him.
Ed Parker may have moved on but the fine art he gave us will live forever.


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> no guts involved. The tape of the 2000, "Heart of the Art," was put up there without my knowledge or permission, which I wouldn't have given, wotthell.


Since it was taped at a public exhibition it is 'legal' for one to post/display it though, right?? Not really sure how that works. Does one need your approval to show it?

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> my vote would have to go to Kyoshi Robert Austin of Co.



Mr. Calkins
I'm not familiar with the term/rank/title "Kyoshi" in respect to 'American' Kenpo.That's a Japanese title isn't it?? Are you certain you aren't refering to "Shorinji Kempo"? 
Just wondering.

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

It's possible that, public exhibition or not, my permission was still legally necessary. However, my point was really that another poster had said that my putting the image out there, "took guts," and I simply meant to point out that my guts were not involved in the posting of a four-or-five-year-old tape without my knowledge. 

As far as influences go, however, I still stick behind the basic idea of sticking with the kenpo system rather than fussing over who is or is not a kenpo god. In fact--and I believe I noted this early on in this thread--I tend to reject the entire premise of this thread. 

But I always find transference an interesting phenomenon; I guess we all need an alibi for what we're doing ourselves as a part of collective action.


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Leaving other matters aside, I didn't change the techniques...I wasn't doing the techniques, nor is that the point.
> 
> The techniques are a scaffolding, an ideal framework that can be (doesn't have to be, but can be) gotten rid of, in the end...but the point isn't to change the techniques, or to, "evolve," them--the point is to change youself, to evolve personally.
> 
> If you think that I've argued that the techniques are unchangeable, you don't understand what I've been writing. What I've been writing is that the techniques (and the sets, and the forms, and the basics), ought to be left alone until one understands them, and has internalized 'em pretty well.
> 
> Then by all means develop...that's the whole point of, "sophisticated basics," and similar concepts in kenpo.
> 
> But to change techniques, etc.--and I'm writing, "etc.," because from what I've seen on the Internet and elsewhere, it isn't just the techniques that get changed and thrown out--without much better reasons than quick technical fixes is, I think, a mistake. There are other things than technique engraved into a good martial arts system, and fiddling with the surface stuff fiddles with the deeper stuff.
> 
> Anyway, though--to correct a polite misunderstanding--no guts involved. The tape of the 2000, "Heart of the Art," was put up there without my knowledge or permission, which I wouldn't have given, wotthell.



In my opinion the purpose of a system is to establish a base that develops a vocabulary of motion that economically allows one to engrain the principles of Kenpo both mentally and physically. With that said I believe there are different ways to accomplish this. Some obviously are better and some worse. In the end the individual is the one that makes the system ;however, structure does govern ones function in movement.

Robert in your case after watching the video it is my belief that you are defying many of the principles of Kenpo taught by Mr. Parker. As I noted earlier I will reframe from sequentially listing the reasons why. But since we are discussing the developement of different systems structure, one has to wonder if there would be a better way for you to internalize proper boby mechanics throughout your vocabulary of motion. The fruits of your labor is not what I was expecting for someone of your experience.

Moving on.....as to your video being shown on the internet...personally I had been looking forward to seeing you move because I was expecting a lot after reading many of your postings on the forums. An advanced ranking black belt should not hesitate in demonstrating their abilities in front of others. It makes them accountable and keeps them from being a salesman of motion. Given that you routinely volunteer your words on the interent, I wonder why you would not give permission to show a video highlighting your physical abilities on the internet....unless you are a salesman of motion yourself?

Take Care


----------



## MJS

Where is this video posted that everyone is talking about??  

Mike


----------



## Fastmover

MJS said:
			
		

> Where is this video posted that everyone is talking about??
> 
> Mike



Many videos including the one you are requesting are here. Better hurry before ?someone? has it removed.

www.geocities.com/kenpo_2000/at_the_movies.html


----------



## MJS

Thank you for the link!! :asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson

I thought I'd been rather clear: being videotaped, and public exhibitions, not something I have a gift for, enjoy or am particularly good at. However, I'm reasonably happy with the results as they were four or five years ago. Were they fast and flashy tournament-winners? No. Were they carried out with knowledge, power and control? Yes, with the exception of that pretty-embarassing sloppy handsword out of a chicken kick.

So thanks for the offhand slams papered over with language ("fruit of my labors," very nice...Fruit of my Loom, more likely), Mr. Connolly. If you really think I violated basic principles, I'd just say onhand that you are mistaken. 

But I see that you haven't chosen to name or discuss these principles in any fashion, let alone offering links to your many videos: could you perhaps explain exactly what you mean, rather than just coming back with more of the same?

Otherwise, I guess I'll just keep muddling through, thanks. I understand your concerns and motives, though, just as I did when you were expressing pretty much the same sorts of concerns and motives on behalf of the AKKI over on KenpoNet during the last two weeks.


----------



## BruceCalkins

Greetings Borther John.
Sorry it took me a while to reply to your comment but I am not on all the 
time 
 No Kyoshi Austin is defenitly American Kenpo. As a matter of fact he worked with Paul Mill and he has a foundation called "IBBA" International Black Belt Association" His Dojos are spread all over the states but the main school is in Greenly Co.
http://www.ibbakarate.com/index.asp
http://www.unitedmartialartsalliance.com/

These two Sites will tell you more


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Otherwise, I guess I'll just keep muddling through, thanks. I understand your concerns and motives, though, just as I did when you were expressing pretty much the same sorts of concerns and motives on behalf of the AKKI over on KenpoNet during the last two weeks.



Sorry Robert......I do not speak on behalf or represent the opinion of an entire association. I am an individual speaking on my own behalf. 

As for me on video, I have been on videos on the AKKI and/or seminars web sight. 

Out of respect for the host of this sight, I will reframe from a public word war with you. However if you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to send me a PM.


----------



## howardr

Fastmover said:
			
		

> Robert in your case after watching the video it is my belief that you are defying many of the principles of Kenpo taught by Mr. Parker. As I noted earlier I will reframe from sequentially listing the reasons why. But since we are discussing the developement of different systems structure, one has to wonder if there would be a better way for you to internalize proper boby mechanics throughout your vocabulary of motion. The fruits of your labor is not what I was expecting for someone of your experience.
> 
> Moving on.....as to your video being shown on the internet...personally I had been looking forward to seeing you move because I was expecting a lot after reading many of your postings on the forums. An advanced ranking black belt should not hesitate in demonstrating their abilities in front of others. It makes them accountable and keeps them from being a salesman of motion. Given that you routinely volunteer your words on the interent, I wonder why you would not give permission to show a video highlighting your physical abilities on the internet....unless you are a salesman of motion yourself?
> 
> Take Care


In Defense of Robert
(who can adequately defend himself, I might add)
What did you think was so poor about Robert's movement? You claim that he violates many of Mr. Parker's principles. I'd certainly like to see you back up that accusation (I subscribe to a different approach to Kenpo than Robert, but given the modality he subscribes to, I'm not really clear what you are getting at). Sure, we can nitpick a particular instance of anyone's execution, but what does that really tell us about the person's skill? It's certainly not that his movement was anywhere near the poor examples we have from alleged "masters," such as Spry. Robert doesn't hold himself out to be a master (in fact he's self-deprecatingly referred to his own abilities on many occasions), nor should that (that he isn't a "master") be an impediment to the valid criticism he often presents. That criticism should stand or fall on its own merits.

Some other things to keep in mind:
- he's on video in front of an audience; that's quite a bit of pressure, and I'm sure my movement would substantially degrade in similar circumstances (I'd hope that viewers would be gracious in their evaluations)
- he didn't start Kenpo as a child but as an adult; he's obviously doing pretty damn well for someone starting later in life
- he's performing a fairly complex routine
- that was several years ago; he's likely progressed from the skill level demonstrated on the video

Given the above considerations, I find it somewhat disturbing that personal criticism is leveled so easily. The fact is we don't know how far Robert was come in his movement from first starting Kenpo, but I only imagine it's a stupendously long way (given his own descriptions). He certainly moves a lot better than much of what I've seen out there, especially for someone of his age and for someone who has indicated that his isn't naturally talented in these sort of physical arts. I say good show!

ps, please don't take the references to "age" as any sort of knock. It isn't. It's just the simple recognition that physically intense and sophisticated activities, such as Kenpo, can be substantially more difficult the older we get, and are certainly more difficult if started as a mature adult.


----------



## rmcrobertson

That was very kind of you, HowardR, especially given that crappy handsword. And I'm not in the least offended by the age thing---started at 38 or 39, around 14 years ago, and well...I look forward to the day when I can look at guys trying to do this stuff in the 50s, and smirk a knowing smirk...course, by then, I'll probably be reduced to lying in bed and watching David Carradine t'ai chi videos.

But I do think that the video's a fair-enough representation of where I was back then. I was also interested to find out which principles I'd violated, but I guess not.

I've considered getting a big poster made...huge picture of me, and captioned:

KENPO KARATE...IF THIS SCHMUCK CAN DO IT, YOU CERTAINLY CAN


----------



## Kenpodoc

howardr said:
			
		

> In Defense of Robert
> (who can adequately defend himself, I might add)
> What did you think was so poor about Robert's movement? You claim that he violates many of Mr. Parker's principles. I'd certainly like to see you back up that accusation (I subscribe to a different approach to Kenpo than Robert, but given the modality he subscribes to, I'm not really clear what you are getting at). Sure, we can nitpick a particular instance of anyone's execution, but what does that really tell us about the person's skill? It's certainly not that his movement was anywhere near the poor examples we have from alleged "masters," such as Spry. Robert doesn't hold himself out to be a master (in fact he's self-deprecatingly referred to his own abilities on many occasions), nor should that (that he isn't a "master") be an impediment to the valid criticism he often presents. That criticism should stand or fall on its own merits.
> 
> Some other things to keep in mind:
> - he's on video in front of an audience; that's quite a bit of pressure, and I'm sure my movement would substantially degrade in similar circumstances (I'd hope that viewers would be gracious in their evaluations)
> - he didn't start Kenpo as a child but as an adult; he's obviously doing pretty damn well for someone starting later in life
> - he's performing a fairly complex routine
> - that was several years ago; he's likely progressed from the skill level demonstrated on the video
> 
> Given the above considerations, I find it somewhat disturbing that personal criticism is leveled so easily. The fact is we don't know how far Robert was come in his movement from first starting Kenpo, but I only imagine it's a stupendously long way (given his own descriptions). He certainly moves a lot better than much of what I've seen out there, especially for someone of his age and for someone who has indicated that his isn't naturally talented in these sort of physical arts. I say good show!
> 
> ps, please don't take the references to "age" as any sort of knock. It isn't. It's just the simple recognition that physically intense and sophisticated activities, such as Kenpo, can be substantially more difficult the older we get, and are certainly more difficult if started as a mature adult.


I was getting ready to write a similar response and am grateful you saved me the time. Robert moved better than most, sure it wasn't perfect but neither are the rest of us.  I will say that in general he moved better than me. 

Robert you should be proud of what you did. No appologies necessary for not reaching perfection.  

I've  criticised other videos I've seen on the internet because they are presented as the ideal and yet are severely flawed. Robert's performance was not ideal but it was good Kenpo.

Respectfully,

Jeff :asian:


----------



## howardr

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I was getting ready to write a similar response and am grateful you saved me the time. Robert moved better than most, sure it wasn't perfect but neither are the rest of us.  I will say that in general he moved better than me.
> 
> Robert you should be proud of what you did. No appologies necessary for not reaching perfection.
> 
> I've  criticised other videos I've seen on the internet because they are presented as the ideal and yet are severely flawed. Robert's performance was not ideal but it was good Kenpo.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff :asian:


In addition, I think we should keep something else in mind that's relevant here. Yes, Robert has criticized certain Kenpo methodologies for introducing or advocating improper mechanics and principles (or excising proper ones) into their base curriculum (basics, sets, techniques, forms, etc.) for any number of dubious reasons (it's faster; it's "original"; it's more "street effective"; etc.). To my mind, such criticism does NOT mean that Robert is saying that in any particular application or encounter (or _demonstration in front of an audience_ for that matter) that a pracititioner (which would include himself) will flawlessly enact all such principles and mechanics. What he's saying is that we shouldn't throw them out from the get-go. We should train in a certain manner, so that when actually applied under stress something functional, even if not perfect, will come out. That seems eminently reasonable to me, and exactly what Robert's been consistently advocating for some time now.


----------



## Trejo

Jamie Seabrook(6th degree) from Canada will impact EPAK in the next 10 years


----------



## Rick Wade

All Hail Mr. S  were not worthy... were not worthy....  Were scum.


V/R

Rick English


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> Robert doesn't hold himself out to be a master (in fact he's self-deprecatingly referred to his own abilities on many occasions), nor should that (that he isn't a "master") be an impediment to the valid criticism he often presents. That criticism should stand or fall on its own merits.



The criticism means more from someone that can actually execute the material in a proficient manner.  This is kinda like taking investment advice from someone who always loses money in the market.  They sure can talk a good game, but if they know so much why aren't they doing it themselves.


> - he's on video in front of an audience; that's quite a bit of pressure, and I'm sure my movement would substantially degrade in similar circumstances (I'd hope that viewers would be gracious in their evaluations)


Sure stress sucks, but if you can't combat the adrenal dump in a non-threatening situation what do you think will happen when someone is actually trying to hurt you.  Besides why do we all have to qualify everything.  You either did well or you did poorly.  


> Given the above considerations, I find it somewhat disturbing that personal criticism is leveled so easily. The fact is we don't know how far Robert was come in his movement from first starting Kenpo, but I only imagine it's a stupendously long way (given his own descriptions).


What are you his mom?  Robert levels attacks against people and organizations all the time, throughout various forums.  He's a grown man.  Let him stick up for himself.


> He certainly moves a lot better than much of what I've seen out there, especially for someone of his age and for someone who has indicated that his isn't naturally talented in these sort of physical arts. I say good show!


That's not saying all that much.  We've all scene the Kenpo- CA-CA out there on the web.  My gripe is that if you want to level criticism about how everyone else is working out or executing material than be prepared for scrutiny.  If you can't stand the pressure then you are just another paper-warrior and we already have too many of those.


----------



## howardr

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> The criticism means more from someone that can actually execute the material in a proficient manner.  This is kinda like taking investment advice from someone who always loses money in the market.  They sure can talk a good game, but if they know so much why aren't they doing it themselves.


Ouch! I'm glad there isn't a video of me on the Web! I mean, sure, the better you are yourself at executing the material, the more weight we might ascribe to your views. However, it's not like Robert executed it like this.


> Sure stress sucks, but if you can't combat the adrenal dump in a non-threatening situation what do you think will happen when someone is actually trying to hurt you.  Besides why do we all have to qualify everything.  You either did well or you did poorly.


Sure, that's true. Just saying under stress, it's not going to come out as "pretty" as it's going to under non-stressed pristine circumstances.


> What are you his mom?  Robert levels attacks against people and organizations all the time, throughout various forums.  He's a grown man.  Let him stick up for himself.


I responded because it seemed like he was being attacked unfairly. Anything wrong with that?


> That's not saying all that much.  We've all scene the Kenpo- CA-CA out there on the web.  My gripe is that if you want to level criticism about how everyone else is working out or executing material than be prepared for scrutiny.  If you can't stand the pressure then you are just another paper-warrior and we already have too many of those.


Sure, be prepared for scrutinty. However, Robert's interlocutor made snipes without backing them up. I responded and asked for clarification. So far, an explanation has not been forthcoming.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Yes, he certainly can. 

First off, Yahoo--good choice, that--you have no idea what you're talking about. 

Second, it takes something special to look good on video, and in public demonstrations. I respect people who can do that; I don't think that's everything there is to a martial art, and I don't think that that particular talent and desire is superior to everything else. But then, I didn't go in to a martial art to learn how to perform: did you? Personally, I'm rather more interested in--and proud of--the fact that I have several students who are far more dynamic and charismatic in public than I am. Do you?

Still, I do want to encourage you to consider me a paper tiger. (It's probably because of my lousy teachers, weak opponents, and lack of mat time.) I suspect you know better; but then, I suspect that you are showing just what sort of influence you plan to be on American kenpo.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> howardr
> Sure, be prepared for scrutinty. However, Robert's interlocutor made snipes without backing them up. I responded and asked for clarification. So far, an explanation has not been forthcoming.


The title of this thread was not "What is Robert doing wrong?"  That can be saved for other threads       I'm am just tired of various people, who at this point will remain nameless, throwing out endless criticisms of what others are doing but don't seem to like it when their efforts are scrutinized.  Big mouths make big targets.


> Robert
> you have no idea what you're talking about.


If you say so....


> Personally, I'm rather more interested in--and proud of--the fact that I have several students who are far more dynamic and charismatic in public than I am.


I can believe that. 


> Still, I do want to encourage you to consider me a paper tiger. (It's probably because of my lousy teachers, weak opponents, and lack of mat time.)


Never said you had a lousy teacher, but that reminds me of a college class I took.  The professor was brilliant, PhD from MIT and all that, but half the class failed while the other half had 'A' averages.  That doesn't mean the professor was bad, does it?  By the way, mat time means nothing.  It's what you are doing with your time while on the mat that makes a difference.


> I suspect you know better; but then, I suspect that you are showing just what sort of influence you plan to be on American kenpo


I guess we will just have to wait and see now won't we....  :uhyeah:


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> The title of this thread was not "What is Robert doing wrong?" That can be saved for other threads  I'm am just tired of various people, who at this point will remain nameless, throwing out endless criticisms of what others are doing but don't seem to like it when their efforts are scrutinized. Big mouths make big targets.
> 
> If you say so....
> 
> I can believe that.
> 
> Never said you had a lousy teacher, but that reminds me of a college class I took. The professor was brilliant, PhD from MIT and all that, but half the class failed while the other half had 'A' averages. That doesn't mean the professor was bad, does it? By the way, mat time means nothing. It's what you are doing with your time while on the mat that makes a difference.
> 
> I guess we will just have to wait and see now won't we.... :uhyeah:


So, are you going to create a better Kenpo based on the teachings of Paul Mills?   

DarK LorD


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> So, are you going to create a better Kenpo based on the teachings of Paul Mills?


No, but I will call people to the floor that have no skill yet try to make everyone else feel dumb simply because they don't agree with what's being done or said. 

Clyde while you are here, maybe you can help me out with something that has been bugging me for a while now.  Larry Tatum moves the Parker material better than most of the other seniors that I've seen, except for maybe one or two, but here's what gets me.  Why is it that Larry moves so well but none of his students can move the material anywhere near as well as he does?  

You see, there are a number of people in the AKKI that, while they may not be as imposing of a force as Mr. Mills, can move the material similiar to the way he does.  Granted he has alot more experience, and who knows maybe he's genetically predisposed for such an art, but he has always been interested in trying to make others move the material as well as he does, if not better (his words).  He's always been caring and forthright when someone asks a good question and truly hungers for the answer.  Plus, he can move the material and drop a man like no one I've ever seen before.  I must say that when we compare the video of you and your buddy Robert to Mr. Tatum.... well ... I think you see where I'm going with this.

By the way Clyde, I read on one of the other forums that you got kicked out of the IKC's for being beligerent and rude.  That's about Par for the course isn't it?


----------



## rmcrobertson

Yeah, Yahoo, that's what I figured. You never had any intention of discussing anything; you just thought you saw a vulnerability, and you tried to exploit it.  

I'm not a bit surprised that you worked around to trying the cheap shot at Mr. Tatum....you know, the one where you claim that he can't teach and pass on the art. It'd be hilarious, considering who his students have been, if it weren't for the ugly intent.

If that spirit in which you wrote your last four posts is exemplary of how you train, where you train, and what you've learned, please hang on to it very tightly. I know I don't want any of it on me.

And pretty please with a cherry on top, do continue to consider me a paper tiger.


----------



## MJS

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Fastmover

MJS said:
			
		

> Mod. Note.
> Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> -MJS
> -MT Moderator-



This is why I did not want to go there. Things tend to get out of hand real fast. Of course I should have never stated my true feelings about Robert on video. Actually as I stated before, I was quit impressed with his creativity in the designing of his demo. 

Besides, you know what they say about opinions...LOL!

Clyde....I do not know if I can improve on what Mr. Mills teaches? At the moment I am too busy learning!! I am sure you feel the same way with Mr. Tatum.

Take Care and Train Hard!


----------



## rmcrobertson

Of course, actual criticism is different from merely stating one's opinions.

In actual criticism, we back up our claims with precise details, explanations of disagreements, and documentations of the history of what we're dicsussing. We do not merely go off in general terms, then duck out of details and explanations.

For example, one possible criticism of that video lies in what would appear to be its lack of speed. This is because their training has led some to privilege speed above other considerations; others have been taught to consider speed to be relatively useless in the absence of power and control.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

You know, I looked at the videos.  I thought Robert did just fine.  Looks like a Black Belt to me.  Moves better in that clip than a whole lot of Kenpo Black Belts.  Besides, it's not like he's claiming he's some Kenpo superman on some mission to prove the power of true Kenpo and save the masses from bad instruction or anything like that.  Give the guy a break.


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> In actual criticism, we back up our claims with precise details, explanations of disagreements, and documentations of the history of what we're dicsussing. We do not merely go off in general terms, then duck out of details and explanations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert you really crack me up!! Let me restate, if I were to level criticism about your video it would be done from my point of view.
> 
> Also I believe the video in question was done a number of years ago. I am sure that your level of movement has evolved since then???
> 
> BTW- Speed is *part of the equation* in evolving your motion in hopes of reaching your maximum potential.
> 
> Take Care
Click to expand...


----------



## rmcrobertson

One can only hope that among the directions kenpo takes in the next ten years involves a greater understanding of how to criticize--to simply advance claims, provide evidence for claims, dissect and discuss histories, without the constant evasion of details and the constant adverting to personal remarks. 

Or, when in doubt, one might simply learn to offer an example--and a critique--of one's own training and example-setting rather than repeatedly attacking others. 

For example, my critique of that tape would begin with directly comparing it to the two previous examples--Cliff and Angela--who were, oddly, elided in the rush by some to throw a shot or two at Mr. Tatum. It is not that their movement is radically superior--in fact, what's striking is that the style is so remarkably similar in all three examples--or more legitimate. All three examples show valid self-defense within the parameters of the choreographed situation, a good understanding of basics and principles, and an excellent awareness of opponents. 

However, Cliff's video does show a superior control--placement might be a better term--of opponents, and a better understanding of the showmanship necessarily involved in public demonstrations. Angela's example is to be valued for its clarity, and for its fighting spirit. Robertson's shows good-to-excellent control and power (note, for example, the strong and well-placed side kick to the opponent's throat, thrown from a kneeling position), but overall, less immersion in the moment. A kind of diffidence about the performance, if you will. 

The handsword out of the chicken kick--already mentioned, one believes--exemplifies this. In part, it's a bit sloppy because the control of range is not  as precise as Cliff's: the practitioner's less sure about the opponent's distance, takes an unneeded beat to size that up, and rushes the strike a bit. In part, it does not quite have Angela's fierceness--that, "tiger," quality built in kenpo at brown belt--which might have allowed for bridging that gap more accurately and quickly. A further analysis of this issue has been carried out at a level of autobiography that remains inappropriate for this forum, inasmuch as it is the writer's, his teachers', and his training partners' affair.

I don't actually expect anybody to follow that example, and provide an example and a critique of their own work. from some, I expect some more-or-less veiled insult, and probably a further attack, rather than any smidgen of the real generosity or actual fellowship that is so often given lip service. 

However, that sort of self-critique is pretty much what we ought to be doing; it is the sort of example we ought to be setting for our own students, rather than trying to set up this or that little tin kenpo god.


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> often given lip service.
> 
> .



HAHAHAHA! That was funny coming from you!

Feel free to send me a PM or and e-mail.


----------



## tshadowchaser

ok now that we have discussed a few videos can we get back to Who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years.  
Anyone can make a viedo and anyone can look good , bad, crapy, and/or overwelming on them. A viedo in no way says someone is going to be the next big player in the game. Therefor lets start nameing names again and stateing why that named person will have an impact on EPAK.


----------



## rmcrobertson

1. I prefer public discussion to be public, "Fastmover." And I more or less expected--and predicted--that sort of response, which is far easier than actual criticism, let alone examining and discussing one's own work in kenpo.

2. I repeat: we ought to be a lot more concerned over what sort of influence we're going to be, than we are with setting up this or that little tin kenpo god.

3. At this point, I believe the posts can speak for themselves, good or bad; therefore, unless something significant comes up, I believe I'll leave the thread to those who find finding the Big Kahuna important.


----------



## Fastmover

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. I prefer public discussion to be public, "Fastmover." And I more or less expected--and predicted--that sort of response, which is far easier than actual criticism, let alone examining and discussing one's own work in kenpo.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Actually Robert as I stated before I was trying to be respectful to the host of the forum. If you remember I did give some actual criticism and discussed Clyde's video on Kenponet. Obviously I could go there but decided to try a different approach this time.
> 
> I also prefer to take personal differences private and resolve them in the appropriate manner. You seem to prefer public word debates.
> 
> Bla Bla Bla....round and round we go.
> 
> Really I wish you the best of luck in your Kenpo training. I am glad that you are very passionate about your direction. With that in mind it would seem we have both found someone who will personally keep us busy for at least the next 10 years.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Criticism involves making precise arguments, dissecting issues, providing exact critiques of the text being criticized, supporting one's arguments with details drawn from reality or from texts, and examining the history of an issue.

In other words, actual criticism works both synchronically (in dissecting and trying to explain the state of things as they are in a given moment of time) and diachronically (in examining the historical evolution of things as they are).

Additionally, good criticism involves self-examination and a rethinking of one's own arguments, proofs and motives.

For example, one of the critiques kenpo needs is an analysis of the reasons that when practitioners think about the future of kenpo, they think about one personality or another rather than their own practices, their own assumptions, and their own evolutions.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> No, but I will call people to the floor that have no skill yet try to make everyone else feel dumb simply because they don't agree with what's being done or said.
> 
> Clyde while you are here, maybe you can help me out with something that has been bugging me for a while now.  Larry Tatum moves the Parker material better than most of the other seniors that I've seen, except for maybe one or two, but here's what gets me.  Why is it that Larry moves so well but none of his students can move the material anywhere near as well as he does?
> 
> You see, there are a number of people in the AKKI that, while they may not be as imposing of a force as Mr. Mills, can move the material similiar to the way he does.  Granted he has alot more experience, and who knows maybe he's genetically predisposed for such an art, but he has always been interested in trying to make others move the material as well as he does, if not better (his words).  He's always been caring and forthright when someone asks a good question and truly hungers for the answer.  Plus, he can move the material and drop a man like no one I've ever seen before.  I must say that when we compare the video of you and your buddy Robert to Mr. Tatum.... well ... I think you see where I'm going with this.


I looked up a list of Mr. Tatum's Blackbelts.  Wow, you insulted a lot of good people. 

Jeff


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> unless something significant comes up, I believe I'll leave the thread to those who find finding the Big Kahuna important.


Did something significant happen? Guess I missed it.  :idunno: 

I agree with the poster that said something about getting this thread back to it's original subject, or at least something closer to it.

SO....
Those who will impact the future of Kenpo the most:
((as polled thus far))
#1: Paul Mills, AKKI.
#2: Larry Tatum, LTKKA.
#3: Other???
#4: Huk Planas.
#5: John Sepulveda.
#6: Chuck Sullivan.
#7: Mike Pick & Steve LaBounty. (a tie thus far)
#8: Tom Kelly. 

This is very interesting I think. I know that you have expressed that you think it's irrelevent Robert, but I consider the people who provide leadership and exert the greatest amount of influence a very important factor in any endevor. 
Here's my question to those who feel the same way:
Why have you chosen whom you have? What sort of leadership and qualities do these people have that makes them the leaders of our art? Why do we follow their lead? 

For my answer:
I chose Mr. Mills for several reasons. Even though I've only had a limited number of contacts with him, each time I have spoken to him he's been *exceedingly* generous with his time. I know from him, and many others, that he's very busy indeed, both with the things he needs/wants to do with/for the AKKI and in his own personal/professional life. I know that he affords himself little freetime and spends a great deal of time working for the association and his students. Every year he works very hard to provide for good, ongoing education to further the understanding and ability of his students and the entire system through our two annual Las Vegas camps... seldom if ever really repeating much of anything...but providing fresh material. ((_I wish to *GOD* that I could make 3X more of these camps than I have!!! It's sad how few I've been too...but I think things are changing for me along these lines.)) _ He also is still working hard to produce very good reference material for us to use. I know I'm glad to have the manuals. Though they aren't "Gospel"....they sure are a help! 

Mr. Mills also works to keep the association running _smoothly_. He has chosen good leadership with the Board of Directors and the Regional Reps... through whom he can keep abreast of everything going on throughout the now sizeable association. I'd imagine that that's quite a trick.  The influence he exerts on these other leaders flows on down to us. I can't begin to tell you how often it's been good to have a really strong and very concerned "up-line".... people even beyond your own instructor(s) who are concerned with your own growth and the growth/prosperity of your local school!!!!  I wouldn't be without it!! *The unity throughout the association is really like an echo of Mr. Mills' own concern for us and his passion to share his art with us and improve each members Kenpo experience.* There are other people in our association that I could easily point to as good leaders, people that will make an impact on Kenpo Karate w/in the next 10 years....heck, w/in the next 10 months!! But really, if I sit back and look at it....who do THEY look to for their guidance, inspiration, instruction, material and leadershilp?? Grandmaster Paul Mills, plain and simple. 

There's lots of other good reasons, not the least of which is the great, very powerful innovations that Mr. Mills has built into the AKKI system of American Kenpo that we practice and the way his bi-annual quality assurance system known as the "Camps" helps us all do well with it...
The universal weapons system!!! It's really awesome. I can't wait to really get to dig into it! The balistic-type grappling techniques that we are being shown. The offensive and defensive work. The new drills and sets. The newly codified concepts and principles that are then fleshed out for our use....etc.. I could go on and on.....
but I think I'd get accused (If I won't be already) of doing nothing more than a simple "Rah-Rah-Rah...." for 'our team'. _Maybe I have_. But maybe there's nothing wrong with being proud of where you are from, what you are doing and who it is that helps you and yours the most.

*Thank you  Mr. Mills *, for all that you do. I trust that your investment of your time and passion comes back to you four-fold.  :asian: 

I invite *ANYONE* from any association, or no association, to come on in and lay out the praise that those who help us and ours out the most so richly deserve.
I think those on this list are very deserving of our thanks, just as I've thanked the one that affects me the most.

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

I picked Larry Tatum because he's a really good martial artist who has taught me, and a lot of others, a lot about kenpo.


----------



## Doc

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I picked Larry Tatum because he's a really good martial artist who has taught me, and a lot of others, a lot about kenpo.


Best answer yet.


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I picked Larry Tatum because he's a really good martial artist who has taught me, and a lot of others, a lot about kenpo.


I agree..... very concise. Brevity is important. 
ME? I gets wordy.

Your Brother
John


----------



## kenpoworks

Brother John...could you please PM me, respectfully Richard


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> Greetings Borther John.
> Sorry it took me a while to reply to your comment but I am not on all the
> time
> No Kyoshi Austin is defenitly American Kenpo. As a matter of fact he worked with Paul Mill and he has a foundation called "IBBA" International Black Belt Association" His Dojos are spread all over the states but the main school is in Greenly Co.
> http://www.ibbakarate.com/index.asp
> http://www.unitedmartialartsalliance.com/
> 
> These two Sites will tell you more


Bob Austin is not DEFINITELY EPAK, he teaches something different. Yes, he was a Paul Mills student, but he went on his own and his promotions have been from someone not EPAK. His latest promotion to 7th is under the auspices of the IKKS, another wannabe association with a fraudulent 7th named Bob Jones of East West Kenpo Karate as the head and founder after he made up the American Wu Shen Pai Kenpo system.

DarK LorD


----------



## Kenpobuff

My opinion on who would make the greatest impact on EPAK in the next 10 years will have to be one or all of the current seniors listed in the poll or a high ranking BB of one of the seniors that are willing to breakaway and take that next daring step.

If one of these seniors are to influence EPAK it would have to be done on a national if not international level.  There are too many associations and students of these associations practicing out there to accept anothers version and be impacted by it.  This person, in my opinion will have to even break away from thier current teachings and venture into new territory to make this impact.  I don't think it can be done from where they are now and have the influence on a large scale.  For the last ten years these associations have been happy with the status quo with what they have been offering with some change but nothing earth shattering.  It would take, dare I say, another Tracy brothers to make a mark on a national scale and present EPAK to a wider audience like Will and Al did for the Tracy name in the 70s.

I don't think an existing student of a current senior can make a dramatic impact due to the fact they are still under the association's "control" so to speak.  Should a high ranking BB in one of these associations get the blessing, backing and support of their instructor to venture out on their own so they can sow their seed then they may have a chance to take EPAK into the future.  There are some young talented BB out there that have begun to show their stuff by either videos, books or articles and that is a good start to getting recognition.  This young person also will have to be diplomatic, respectful of other organizations, politically correct, and a possess a host of other characteristics that most fighting arts practioners don't have or can't find themselves tapping into.

To take EPAK into the future and have a noticable impact I would like to see that someone begin to unify the art in a way that will allow and recognize the many different associations and their versions and at the same time find a common ground that we can all call American Kenpo as GM Parker envisoned it.  

So to conclude, my vote is for all the people mentioned above have the ability to impact EPAK in the next ten years.  It would be interesting to see, and I think it's been talked about before, those individuals listed in the poll and a few others to come together and find that common ground I spoke of.  If it's going to happen it should be done by these folks before the art and their influence on the art is lost due to attrition.

Just off the top of my little pointed head.

Kenpobuff
Steve Goemmel


----------



## MisterMike

Maybe it will be the next Jeff Speakman. In other words, the next guy to bring Kenpo to the big screen in a successful way. (OK, The Perfect Weapon was probably the only successful movie by Speakman, but it did act as a catalyst in bringing new students to Kenpo)


----------



## kenpoworks

Maybe we should all back Jeff Speakman, because if nothing else when it comes to Kenpo at the movies....well...."he's been there and done that" !
Rich


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kenpobuff said:
			
		

> To take EPAK into the future and have a noticable impact I would like to see that someone begin to unify the art in a way that will allow and recognize the many different associations and their versions and at the same time find a common ground that we can all call American Kenpo as GM Parker envisoned it.
> 
> 
> Just off the top of my little pointed head.
> 
> Kenpobuff
> Steve Goemmel


 
Allow and recognize mediocrity or less in the name of unification, not today, not while I'm still breathing LOL.     


DarK LorD


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Maybe we should all back Jeff Speakman, because if nothing else when it comes to Kenpo at the movies....well...."he's been there and done that" !
> Rich


I wouldn't back Speakman with an ice pick. Perfect example of what happens when ego comes before commitment. Picture a self absorbed narcissistic blob of goo walking about on two sticks. Got that picture in your mind? Good. Should look a lot like Speakman.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## kenpoworks

wow...seems a bit harsh...you have issues with him?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

You could say that.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I wouldn't back Speakman with an ice pick. Perfect example of what happens when ego comes before commitment. Picture a self absorbed narcissistic blob of goo walking about on two sticks. Got that picture in your mind? Good. Should look a lot like Speakman.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


LOL, I couldn't agree more.

DarK LorD


----------



## Brother John

Kenpobuff said:
			
		

> My opinion on who would make the greatest impact on EPAK in the next 10
> 
> one of the seniors that are willing to breakaway and take that next daring step.
> 
> If one of these seniors are to influence EPAK it would have to be done on a national if not international level.
> 
> This person, in my opinion will have to even break away from thier current teachings and venture into new territory to make this impact.  I
> 
> 
> To take EPAK into the future and have a noticable impact I would like to see that someone begin to unify the art in a way that will allow and recognize the many different associations and their versions and at the same time find a common ground that we can all call American Kenpo as GM Parker envisoned it.
> 
> So to conclude, my vote is for all the people mentioned above have the ability to impact EPAK in the next ten years.  It would be interesting to see, and I think it's been talked about before, those individuals listed in the poll and a few others to come together and find that common ground I spoke of.
> 
> Steve Goemmel



Steve-
I like a lot of the sentiments that you've put forth. In some ways much of what you are wanting to see is already happening I think. But the idea of 'grand-unification' is...I think...both impossible and wouldn't be beneficial.

Impossible: Because it would be a political maelstrom trying to find out which senior would lead it...what would qualify them to lead it, why should everyone listen to "him"...etc. Not only would the seniors who would or could be up for the position need to jockey for it...but those loyal to each senior would do some major 'jockying' too. THEN there's the fact that I couldn't imagine anyone wanting the headache of trying to do such a thing. It'd take one major ego to want it.

Not beneficial:Kenpo has permutated through the different camps/associations/organizations...etc. There are many different flavors now, many different methods. Many would like to say: "we are doing it the RIGHT way".... some would say "We are doing it the way Mr. Parker wanted, because we haven't changed a thing since he died"...still others.."We are doing it the way Mr. Parker wanted because we HAVE changed things and evolved."....etc. I think that this diversity is a very good thing. Many good things can come from it now and the options to chose from are greater. I don't recall the exact quote but I recall someone asking Mr. Parker whom they should look to after his death to find who knows HIS Kenpo....Mr. Parker said something like "Look to about 20 of my personal students and you'd have a good start."   I like that. To my way of thinking Mr. Parker, in creating American Kenpo Karate, didn't plant a tree.... but started off a fantastic grove of trees. A single tree grows old, drops seeds and dies. That single tree could be likened to Mr. Parker I think. But those seeds, if they fell on good soil (Good students) "Take" and they weather the elements....and produce their own tree....much like the original, but different....very much their own.

You can't try to cram all of the grove into "One Tree" again. It just wouldn't work.  If we tried, we'd have to shave off everything that made each one distinct. 

just something to think about....

Your Brother
John


----------



## kenpoworks

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> You could say that.


So does he have any redeeming qualities at all for you? it seems like real hate!
There must be something because Ed Parker chose him to present Kenpo to the silver screen.
Anyone who makes a video series on Kenpo gets critisized!( by people who have'nt made a video, of course).
Anyone who even puts the shortest of vid clips on a web page gets viciously attacked for doing it (look what happened to Clyde when put his vid up....it was like armagedon for a while on the KN).
Does the root of dislike stem from Senior instructors with a "it should've been me on the Big Screen" kind of complex
Is your dislike based on the fact that he is/was/could be again a famous MA Movie Star.
We all have faults, is it that his are emphasized because of his high profile job, so people tend to focus on them.
I do not know and I am Just asking with no offence to anyone.
Is there a case for the defence ?
Rich


----------



## rmcrobertson

1. The guy was a movie actor, and from all accounts, once a solid martial artist.

2. I've never heard of anybody arguing that they're doing what Mr. Parker wanted, because they haven't changed a thing or evolved in the slightest, though I have repeatedly heard folks making that claim about others in order to pump up their own ideas and practices.


----------



## kenpoworks

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 2. I've never heard of anybody arguing that they're doing what Mr. Parker wanted, because they haven't changed a thing or evolved in the slightest, though I have repeatedly heard folks making that claim about others in order to pump up their own ideas and practices.


Thanks for the input Robert, I am not sure I fully get the gist of your 2nd statement though!

Respectfully 
Richard


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 2. I've never heard of anybody arguing that they're doing what Mr. Parker wanted, because they haven't changed a thing or evolved in the slightest, though I have repeatedly heard folks making that claim about others in order to pump up their own ideas and practices.



Maybe I'm just tired....I don't understand what you are saying with this.


I'm just saying that some feel they honor Mr. Parker by leaving things the way they were when he died and some that feel they honor him by continuing to change/evolve.  I don't see anything wrong with either approach as long as you are aware of which one you are doing and why.

Your Brother
John


----------



## kenpofist

When the american kenpo community can once have peace between factions.  each style is an expression of its leader.  not every one moves the same because body types are different nor is there someone that moves the best out of everybody. We cannot teach our students love honor respect compassion and self discipline if we dont respect one another.  I believe that Professor Jones has expressed his views with joint locks and pressure point theory    Mr mills has dynamite speed   Mr tatum as well has something to offer..  I dont feel anyone is better than the other each has a different view of the art.  what Professor jones chooses to teach in our Wu Shen Pai system is whats best for us. I would not train with anyone else
Look for Advanced Kenpo Karate the Wu Shen Pai method in stores soon.
those of you out there that want to know what we are doing should pick it up


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

kenpofist said:
			
		

> When the american kenpo community can once have peace between factions. each style is an expression of its leader. not every one moves the same because body types are different nor is there someone that moves the best out of everybody. We cannot teach our students love honor respect compassion and self discipline if we dont respect one another. I believe that Professor Jones has expressed his views with joint locks and pressure point theory Mr mills has dynamite speed Mr tatum as well has something to offer.. I dont feel anyone is better than the other each has a different view of the art. what Professor jones chooses to teach in our Wu Shen Pai system is whats best for us. I would not train with anyone else
> Look for Advanced Kenpo Karate the Wu Shen Pai method in stores soon.
> those of you out there that want to know what we are doing should pick it up


 
Well, I see this is your first post here, and to be honest, Bob Jones can't lead his *** to the toilet.

The Wu Shen Pai system is nothing more than Bob's interpretation of Kenpo, and not a good one at that.      We won't be seeing any Wu Shen Pai material on the market anytime soon.     I do have a suggestion that you come to the LTKKA Vegas camp and tell me if you really think what Bob does is better after seeing the instructors there.      I attained my 7th the hard way, blood, sweat, and a new puncture wound from a wooden knife held by Frank Trejo yesterday, can you say the same for Bob Jones, no?    Bob wasn't happy with his 5th ranking and knew he wasn't going to be getting any more any time soon, he still had much to learn.    So, he called some guys, paid his money and biff, boom, bam, he's an 8th, promoted by a JUDO person no less, and says he's the creator of a new system, so he's now a FOUNDER (LOL) and SOKE.    

Bob Jones may impact EPAK, but in the most negative way, in fact, I think I'll just start calling him Al Farnsworth Jones.

DarK LorD


----------



## Brother John

kenpofist said:
			
		

> Look for Advanced Kenpo Karate the Wu Shen Pai method in stores soon.
> those of you out there that want to know what we are doing should pick it up


Welcome to Martial Talk

It's good that you are proud to be where you are from, but the above quoted statement MIGHT be kinda.....I dunno....SPAM-ish.

might check da rulz


Clyde:


> Well, I see this is your first post here, and to be honest, Bob Jones can't lead his *** to the toilet.


See man.....THIS is why you were removed from your post as the door greeter!

;-)
Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

1. I meant that I get tired of these pseudo-arguments built around the notion that it's all a simple matter of, "evolution," vs. "tradition," when a) that isn't even remotely the issue; b) the ideas of 'evolution,' and 'tradition,' forlks are trying to get me to buy are far too simplistic to be useful.

2. I've met and worked out with some of Mr. Jones' students, and they're nice people and (the ones I've met, anyway) solid martial artists.I've heard good things about their work ethic on the mat, from some interesting sources.  I've also worked out with Mr. Jones, sparred with him, and seen him teach. He isn't doing anything, or teaching anything, that would lead me to believe that he knows more, or can do more, than I do.

3. I still think the poll question, as well as the subsequent discussion,  shows our limitations as martial artists and thinking people a lot more clearly than it shows anything else.


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. I meant that I get tired of these pseudo-arguments built around the notion that it's all a simple matter of, "evolution," vs. "tradition," when a) that isn't even remotely the issue; b) the ideas of 'evolution,' and 'tradition,' forlks are trying to get me to buy are far too simplistic to be useful.


Thanks for answering my question, but as usual... one answered question leads me to several more questions; especially when your reply seems to be very open ended...not clearly defined. I'm just trying to get a handle on your gripe.

Why is the discussion about 'evolution' vs 'tradition' a "Pseudo" argument?? Just wondering what you thought invalidates it and keeps it from being a 'real' argument.

You say that the "evolution vs tradition" argument "Isn't even remotely the issue". OK. Why do you feel it isn't the issue? What then IS the issue in your estimation?

You said that the "ideas of 'evolution,' and 'tradition,' forlks are trying to get me to buy are far too simplistic to be useful." 
What do you think their argument is? IF you understand it, in other words, could you tell us what you think their point of view is? Then also what makes it "too simplistic"? AND: Why is a 'simple' argument not useful? 

Thanks

Your Brother
John


----------



## rmcrobertson

1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.

2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and  theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.
> 
> 2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?


 
Now, if they can answer these questions they win the cupie doll.    All I can say is WOW, this is an outstanding argument.

DarK LorD


----------



## kenpoworks

Robert,
I think that was a genuinely impressive answer that covered a "lot" of ground and for "me" it was food for thought and not something I felt I must answer.
Thanks 
Richard
ps thank you for making me look up shibboleths, I can't wait to drop that one into a conversation "down the pub"


----------



## Doc

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.
> 
> 2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and  theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?


I gotta say, you didn't miss much. I also gotta say, I agree with you.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Well Robert, I think you just gave everyone a ton to digest, maybe too much LOL.    Wished I had your way with words for that post, there's really nothing for me to say but DAAAMMMMMMNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!

DarK LorD


----------



## Brother John

Robert-
Excellent set of questions. I don't want to just slap down an answer yet, I'd like to put more thought into it. I will reply, but I can only do so from my own background...I've never 'changed' or done any modification to any martial art system...so I'm not qualified to give much of a "THIS is why" type reply...I can only offer my thoughts. But I will put my thoughts out here. I do train in an art that has been significantly changed and modified by our associations founder, so these are things I've thought about. Probably make for a good discussion so long as we can keep positive and polite.

I might suggest though that you make this it's own thread as it raises good questions and deserves it's own consideration And because it's markedly different than the aim of This thread. If you do, please let me know where you placed it.

Your Brother
John


----------



## kenpoworks

Brother John said:
			
		

> I might suggest though that you make this it's own thread as it raises good questions and deserves it's own consideration And because it's markedly different than the aim of This thread. If you do, please let me know where you placed it.


I agree with Brother John, it's your baby Robert and it does deserve a thread of it's own " so long as we can keep positive and polite ", I feel that it will benefit the Kenpo community to address all the points you have raised.
Richard


----------



## KenpoDave

I haven't really kept up with this thread too much, only to note that it is still rolling pretty good.

Based on that, and excuse me if someone else already suggested it, but...has anyone considered that the internet might have the greatest impact on EPAK or MA in general over the next 10 years?

Look at the caliber of people and variety of opinions expressed here on a daily basis.  It is difficult to bring this much community and diversity together ever, much less daily.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> I haven't really kept up with this thread too much, only to note that it is still rolling pretty good.
> 
> Based on that, and excuse me if someone else already suggested it, but...has anyone considered that the internet might have the greatest impact on EPAK or MA in general over the next 10 years?
> 
> Look at the caliber of people and variety of opinions expressed here on a daily basis.  It is difficult to bring this much community and diversity together ever, much less daily.



While we may not be impacting Kenpo on "da street", we are impacting Kenpo on "da web".


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. It's a fake argument because, a) it gets thrown at guys like me every time we disagree with certain shibboleths; b) it's a fake argument because the, "evolution," folks never really seem to be doing anything that's actually evolutionary; c) it's a fake argument because the, "tradition," guys actually evolve things all the time if they're any good; d) it's a fake argument because it represents a fundamental misapprehension of the radical nature of kenpo; e) it's a fake argument because guys like me don't have any quarrel with the notion of genuine development of any martial arts system.
> 
> 2. Better approaches: a) what's the relationship between "personal," evolution and the alteration of the kenpo system; b) was there ever really a solid system in the first place?; c) is kenpo actually a radical martial art, or simply one more articulation of martial art principles?; d) what is the relation between the importation of, "outside," materials (i.e. arnis, grappling, judo, etc.); e) does kenpo HAVE an, "outside," from which we borrow needed advances; f) what is the real status of the struggle "sublevels," vs. "advances," in kenpo; g) why do practitioners tend to fetishize either the system, or their, "radical," alterations of the system; h) what are the specific histories of those teachers associated with either the development of the, "hidden," material in kenpo or the development of an, "evolutionary," kenpo; i) what parts of the specific relations between," the kenpo system," (assuming that there is one) and the progress of particular students can we identify; j) to what extent is the whole discussion a simple cover-up for power trips? k) why is our focus on development of the system rather than development of the individuals practicing it? l) how does one establish that changed techniques and drills represent some, "evolutionary," development? m) how do we separate useful developments from changes that are made for change's sake or for ego gratification, n) how do we separate retaining necessary basics, sets, forms, techniques and  theory from hanging onto tradition for tradition's sake, or for ego gratification?



With regard to your first point, we continue to agree to disagree here.

With regard to your second point.  Thank you, your statement is profound.  I think that only time will give us our answers:  Kenpo traditionalists, Kenpo radicals, and everyone in between will continue learning, teaching, experimenting.  Of the hundreds of Kenpoists experimenting in thousands of tiny ways, several "new" ideas or approaches will surface every year.  A few of these will be strong enough to stand the test of time.  Make a few small changes every year and in 10 years you will have something slightly different.  In 50 years it will be very different.  In 100 years, it will be almost completely different.  There is almost no martial art that has remanined unchanged for over 100 years.  I don't think anyone expects Kenpo to be more conservative than the rest.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Oh? You DON'T throw the claim about opposition to development or evolution every time the issue comes up? Would you like a few examples?

Otherwise, I repeat: generalizations will never get us anywhere.


----------



## detroitfan102

Where's Jeff Speakman?


----------



## Brother John

not really in the running.






Your Brother
John


----------



## Kenpoist

I will take the easy way out and say that no single person will have the most impact because so many instructors have taken the EPAK sytem in different directions.  

It seems to me that many people are trying to get so "innovative" with their techniques - changing this and altering that, that they have forgotten the basic principles of SGM Parker's teachings.  It is all there if you look for it - no need to "fix it if it ain't broke".  Of course, SGM Parker had a lot more to teach and probably didn't have the opportunity to write every thing down due to his untimely passing - but I have seen alot of the basics lost in trying to "create" a new Kenpo system.

I would venture to say that SGM would disagree with some of the selections of "innovative istructors" if he were here today.  Egos have clouded peoples judgement and some people left the old system on bad terms only to now come out riding on the coattails of SGM Parker after he passed away.

To tell you the truth -the more I have observed some of the behavior over the last 15 years, the more it disappoints me.

I am happy to find humble and honest instructors with integrity and loyalty to SGM Parker.


----------



## Brother John

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> It seems to me that many people are trying to get so "innovative" with their techniques - changing this and altering that, that they have forgotten the basic principles of SGM Parker's teachings.
> 
> I have seen alot of the basics lost in trying to "create" a new Kenpo system.
> 
> I would venture to say that SGM would disagree with some of the selections of "innovative istructors" if he were here today.
> 
> To tell you the truth -the more I have observed some of the behavior over the last 15 years, the more it disappoints me.



Just wondering, it sounds like you've had quite a bit of first hand experience getting to know or at least see some of these "Innovative" people or alterations... enough to make a pretty broad statement like that.
So please, let me ask: 
 #1: What of the "innovative" branches of Kenpo have you had this first hand experience with?
 #2: Who was it? 
#3: How long did you take in investigating it before you made these distinct judgements? 
#4: How long did you personally know Mr. Parker? ((If you know what he'd be 'disappointed' in...you must know him fairly well.))


*Thanks*

Your Brother
John


----------



## Kenpoist

Unfortunately, I didnt have the privilege of training with SGM Parker, but I have trained with and am training with those who did. This is MY opinion, so those instructors will remain nameless.



All of the instructors on this list are very talented Kenpo practitioners and I dont have first hand knowledge of their instruction. I base my opinion on reading there publications, their websites and talking to instructors who have trained with them.



I started training in the late 80s, had a lapse in training in the 90s due to relocation and now I have come back into the kenpo arena to research and inquire about what has happened to the system since I had been away.



Some instructors have added new techniques and altered techniques  when not needed. Some are teaching extensions from the beginning and shortening the length of time to black belt. I see videos of instructors knocking their students out or knocking them all around while doing technique demos  no control used to keep their students from being injured.



Maybe I am a traditionalist  but I liked the system the way it was originally taught. I believe that SGM Parker covered all the bases and put everything into his system that was required  no altering needed. I am a strong believer in basics, having a good foundation. If there are recommendations of instructors who have upheld the values and loyalty to SGM Parkers teaching, than please point me in that direction and I will research and try to observe it for myself.


----------



## Brother John

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> Maybe I am a traditionalist  but I liked the system the way it was originally taught. I believe that SGM Parker covered all the bases and put everything into his system that was required  no altering needed. I am a strong believer in basics, having a good foundation. If there are recommendations of instructors who have upheld the values and loyalty to SGM Parkers teaching, than please point me in that direction and I will research and try to observe it for myself.




Nothing wrong with being in love with the system the very way that it was when Mr. Parker died, it's an excellent system. Very excellent. But I don't believe 'perfect'. 

I also agree VERY heartily on your thoughts on Strong basics and a solid foundation. That is so very very important!!!

As far as pointing you toward those who've innovated and yet still been *loyal * to SGM Parker's teaching... that depends, loyal to him, his ideals & vision, his curriculum, his association...etc. There are a great many different ways to see that word. 

Your Brother
John


----------



## Kenpoist

Ditto! It is an excellent system - no system compares in my humble opinion ad I have had to study s4everal other sytems when I left the kenpo training and moved to Central Virginia - where kenpo does not exist.

I don't want to open up a can of worms in the "loyalty" department, because I only have second hand knowledge of some of the politics that have taken place since SGM Parker's passing (IKKA mismanagement, etc..).

Happy training


----------



## Fastmover

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> Maybe I am a traditionalist  but I liked the system the way it was originally taught.



Question is, how was the system originally taught and to whom? Which version of EPAK is the best method? Some will say the last. Others will say he watered down the system when he evolved through the years. Some people need 700 techniques, some need 154 plus extensions to feel all warm and fuzzy! 

I assume  you are speaking of the book version in Vol 5? There is no way that Parkers books contain all the information that he knew. I would be willing to bet there was a lot of info he shared that was not in the books.


----------



## Kenpoist

Fastmover said:
			
		

> Question is, how was the system originally taught and to whom? Which version of EPAK is the best method? Some will say the last. Others will say he watered down the system when he evolved through the years. Some people need 700 techniques, some need 154 plus extensions to feel all warm and fuzzy!
> 
> I assume you are speaking of the book version in Vol 5? There is no way that Parkers books contain all the information that he knew. I would be willing to bet there was a lot of info he shared that was not in the books.


 
Yes to each his own. I like the 16 tech system which allows for gradual development and offers the student a chance to develop good fundamentals. I think the original 184 tech system had everything needed for all possible attack scenarios. The Tracy system added the other 300+ techs later on ( techs like delayed sword, but called inward defenses A,B,C,D etc... -just added a different strike on the end). 

I am also refering to the politics of it all.

No doubt SGM Parker taught many more concepts to his high ranking students, but due to his untimely passing, it is not all documented.


----------



## ikenpo

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> Yes to each his own. I like the 16 tech system which allows for gradual development and offers the student a chance to develop good fundamentals. I think the original 184 tech system had everything needed for all possible attack scenarios. The Tracy system added the other 300+ techs later on ( techs like delayed sword, but called inward defenses A,B,C,D etc... -just added a different strike on the end).
> 
> I am also refering to the politics of it all.
> 
> No doubt SGM Parker taught many more concepts to his high ranking students, but due to his untimely passing, it is not all documented.



Scott,

I'm confused again. Who do you study EPAK with here in Houston, TX? I know most, if not all of the instructors here in Houston. Mr. Braughton teaches IMUA Kenpo, Mr. Smith teaches a variation that he doesn't call EPAK, Mr. McCord teaches the AKKI Mills curriculum, Mr. Ritchie (whom I'm only conversed with via email) teaches a Kenpo Taijutsu thing he created with Brent Berry's mess and Bujitsu, which is NOT  Ed Parker's American Kenpo, and I hold 2 classes IMUA Kenpo and a EPAK class (the only one I know of in Houston) that teaches the 154 base techs, standard sets I & II, forms, sayings, pledges, basics, freestyle techs, etc...So please let me know who your training with because I'd love to make a new friend. 

Regards, Jason


----------



## Fastmover

jbkenpo said:
			
		

> Scott,
> 
> I'm confused again. Who do you study EPAK with here in Houston, TX? I know most, if not all of the instructors here in Houston. Mr. Braughton teaches IMUA Kenpo, Mr. Smith teaches a variation that he doesn't call EPAK, Mr. McCord teaches the AKKI Mills curriculum, Mr. Ritchie (whom I'm only conversed with via email) teaches a Kenpo Taijutsu thing he created with Brent Berry's mess and Bujitsu, which is NOT  Ed Parker's American Kenpo, and I hold 2 classes IMUA Kenpo and a EPAK class (the only one I know of in Houston) that teaches the 154 base techs, standard sets I & II, forms, sayings, pledges, basics, freestyle techs, etc...So please let me know who your training with because I'd love to make a new friend.
> 
> Regards, Jason



Jason,

All you guys doing "Southern Texas Kenpo" are all lost!!! Everyone knows that "Northern Texas Kenpo" is the real stuff!!!! 

Who Loves Ya!!!

John


----------



## ikenpo

Fastmover said:
			
		

> Jason,
> 
> All you guys doing "Southern Texas Kenpo" are all lost!!! Everyone knows that "Northern Texas Kenpo" is the real stuff!!!!
> 
> Who Loves Ya!!!
> 
> John



Hey,

I've heard you're good people from my Kansas connection. If you ever have a lay over in H-Town give me a call...

jb

p.s. That's provided I won't make TMac (Terry McCord) jealous :inlove:...LOL


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Why was Lee Wedlake not on the list.  He has been constantly releasing books and writting very good articles about kenpo for many years.  His knowledge, understanding and kenpo ability are quite remarkable.  Not only does he know kenpo as well as any he his very knowledgable in Tia Chi, Kail + systema.

????


----------



## ikenpo

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Why was Lee Wedlake not on the list.  He has been constantly releasing books and writting very good articles about kenpo for many years.  His knowledge, understanding and kenpo ability are quite remarkable.  Not only does he know kenpo as well as any he his very knowledgable in Tia Chi, Kail + systema.
> 
> ????



That's probably a question to ask yourself. If you know him and what he's about what characterisitcs exist or don't exist that might make one leave him off the list completely? In what way would his impact on the system be reflected? Through writing, innovation, organization, proliferation of the system? 

Just some thoughts, jb


----------



## Doc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Why was Lee Wedlake not on the list.  He has been constantly releasing books and writting very good articles about kenpo for many years.  His knowledge, understanding and kenpo ability are quite remarkable.  Not only does he know kenpo as well as any he his very knowledgable in Tia Chi, Kail + systema.
> 
> ????


Don't get excited. The person who made the list placed people on it that they felt were significant. That's all. I'm senior to everyone on that list except one and even with another, and was left off. Big deal. I know Lee could give a rip. Don't sweat the small stuff.  Let's talk about the Raiders or something. Uhhhhh, I mean Falcons.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Why was Lee Wedlake not on the list. He has been constantly releasing books and writting very good articles about kenpo for many years. His knowledge, understanding and kenpo ability are quite remarkable. Not only does he know kenpo as well as any he his very knowledgable in Tia Chi, Kail + systema.
> 
> ????


OK, I can't resist.     You're only allotted so many spaces for the poll, and the person who put it on there put the people he was most familiar with.    The last one, is where you can put your answer in your post if not on list.   Very simple really.  

DarK LorD


----------



## Kenpodoc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Why was Lee Wedlake not on the list.  He has been constantly releasing books and writting very good articles about kenpo for many years.  His knowledge, understanding and kenpo ability are quite remarkable.  Not only does he know kenpo as well as any he his very knowledgable in Tia Chi, Kail + systema.
> 
> ????


I'm sure that Lee like anyone else who deserves to be mentioned on this list does not care.  The more important question is who will impact your Kenpo the most in the next 10 years.

I was fortunate enough to spend more than two hours testing in front of Mr. Wedlake in June. It wasn't a private but it felt like the best class I ever had.  The rank is unimportant the instruction was fabulous. The person who impacts Kenpo the most may just be the best politician.  I know at least 30 EPAK instructors who I would be proud to study with.  I know there are many more I don't know.  My instructor Mr. Steve Hatfield is a fabulous instructor but do to personal inclination, is unlikely to affect more than this very small pocket of EPAK here in Ohio.  

One of Mr. Parker's enduring legacies is providing a system with a huge network of excellent instructors.  

respectfully,

Jeff


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> OK, I can't resist.     You're only allotted so many spaces for the poll, and the person who put it on there put the people he was most familiar with.    The last one, is where you can put your answer in your post if not on list.   Very simple really.
> 
> DarK LorD



Thank you Clyde that is correct.  Also, I would like to add that I may have overestimated the influence of some seniors I did put on the list but who failed to garner a lot of votes from this crowd.  I did want to put more, and Mr. Wedlake was tied with about 5 others for 11th place in my short list when writing this poll.


----------



## Doc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I'm sure that Lee like anyone else who deserves to be mentioned on this list does not care.  The more important question is who will impact your Kenpo the most in the next 10 years.


Couldn't have said it better sir. The person that matters the most and has the greatest impact from anyone's perspective is the one that stands in front of you in your classes. The rest is an intellectual discussion.

Lee is a great guy and so are many, many others. Its hard to do a poll and put everyone you want, so ...

At any rate, "small pocket kenpo" is what it is all about. That's where the best work is being done, from my perpective.


----------



## kenpoworks

Docs quote 
               ..... "small pocket kenpo"........That's where the best work is being done...

Halleiujah.... from what I have seen that's definitely where its at!

Once gain Doc you have hit that nail firmly on the head.

Hasta !
Rich


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Who will impact Kenpo the most in the next ten years?  I'll have to go with.............the recent 1st Degree Brown Belts and Black Belts.  They will be the torch bearers in the years to come.  It's not necessarily what who is teaching (ie. Doc, Mills, Tatum, Planas, Trejo, etc.) it's how the people learning these lessons apply them that will impact kenpo the most in the next 10-20 even 100 years.  Food for thought.


----------



## kenpostart

Here in Germany the situation is now not so easy as in the beginning.

In the late 70s Mr. Rainer Schulte founded the first Kenpo group in Germany, later on a Kenpo school was opened by Mr. Christian Springer. Some of their black belts are running an Kenpo group near Düsseldorf after the retreat of Mr. Rainer Schulte and Mr. Christian Springer.
This Kenpo group is now affiliated to the Progressivekenposystems of Mr. Lee Wedlake Jr. and Mr. Gary Ellis.

The second Kenpo group in Düsseldorf is runned by a black belt studied at Mr. Larry Kongaika at the Pasadena Studio.

There is small Kenpo group near the "Ruhrgebiet" and in Sourthern Germany which are trained by a green and brown belt.

There is another Kenpo school located near Stuttgart. This black belt passed his first black belt test by Mr. Norman Sandler in the States.

In Berlin and Eastern Germany is a Kenpo assocation which is operated by a black belt without any information about his family tree on his webpage.

The newest (two ?) Kenpo schools in Germany follows Mr. Jeff Speakman.


I think here in Germany there is big influence by:

Mr. Gary Ellis (Mr. Lee Wedlake Jr.) for basics, basics, basics ...
Mr. Richard "Huk" Planas for "original" techniques
And I'm looking forward for Mr. Jeff Speakman (I hope I can attend to his seminar here in Germany in Sept.)

Hmm,
the general Kenpo journey in Germany is very difficult ... but I mean there is no singular name in the next ten years at the horizon.


----------



## Likaes the Bandit

Kenny Gonzales and his Kali Kenpo


----------



## Brother John

Maybe in a way, on a personal and practical level, this question doesn't matter so much. Maybe we should each study, train and teach as though the future quality of Kenpo depends on *US*.

just something to think about.


Your Brother
John


----------



## Gin-Gin

Brother John said:
			
		

> Maybe in a way, on a personal and practical level, this question doesn't matter so much. Maybe we should each study, train and teach as though the future quality of Kenpo depends on *US*.
> 
> just something to think about.
> 
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Hey, there's an idea...


----------



## donald

Did I understand that Mr.Mills has changed the forms? Is'nt Mr.Parker Sr. quoted as saying. "Do what you will, but if you change the forms. Don't call it kenpo". end quote.


----------



## Brother John

donald said:
			
		

> Did I understand that Mr.Mills has changed the forms? Is'nt Mr.Parker Sr. quoted as saying. "Do what you will, but if you change the forms. Don't call it kenpo". end quote.


 
I'd never heard that quote before, where do you find him saying that?
In the end though, what does it matter. If it offends you to call something that's been changed "Kenpo"....then don't. Those of us that *Do* it _can call it what we like._

It's this kind of rancid devicivness that makes the Kenpo community, in general and from every direction, stink.
sorry...just calling it like it is.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Doc

donald said:
			
		

> Did I understand that Mr.Mills has changed the forms? Is'nt Mr.Parker Sr. quoted as saying. "Do what you will, but if you change the forms. Don't call it kenpo". end quote.


Mr. Parker never said that. Sorry.


----------



## arnisador

Sounds more like what Bruce Lee said about "Jeet Kune Do"...abandon the name if it becomes a matter of focus or concern.


----------



## donald

To Any Concerned,

First let me say that I have no interest or desire to be a rabble rouser in any sense. All I am doing is asking a question. I read the aforementioned quote in either K.I., or Blackbelt. A number of years ago. The article was about American Kenpo forms, and their importance to the system. I believe the interviewee' was John Sepulavda(sp?). I can't believe I am the only one to have read this article.


----------



## Seig

I kind of have to agree with Brother john on this one.
That's the same kind of statement as "If you aren't doing the 24 technique system, you aren't doing Ed Parker's Kenpo, period." What that really is is arrogance of a very high degree. 
Me, I say that I am studying Ed Parker's American Kenpo as taught by Professor Conatser, but it's MY kenpo.


----------



## Brother John

DING DING DING DING>>>>>
THAT was the CORRECT answer.....it's YOUR Kenpo!!
I like that. 

Your Brother
John


----------



## Doc

Brother John said:
			
		

> DING DING DING DING>>>>>
> THAT was the CORRECT answer.....it's YOUR Kenpo!!
> I like that.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


I thought everyone already knew the motion curriculum is designed for individual interpretation to make it your own. Even in SL-4, students have preferences. The difference is we require a level of competency in curriculum before a student is allowed to express their own preferences and creativity, like most traditional arts. I thought we covered this years ago John.


----------



## Brother John

Doc said:
			
		

> I thought everyone already knew the motion curriculum is designed for individual interpretation to make it your own. Even in SL-4, students have preferences. The difference is we require a level of competency in curriculum before a student is allowed to express their own preferences and creativity, like most traditional arts. I thought we covered this years ago John.



True.
That's one of the things I like about doing my Kenpo (Motion Kenpo, my Kenpo.... Sam Ting I guess)... it's as adaptive to me as I am to it. I was just saying to Seig that I liked what he said; that our art serves the individual instead of the individual serving the art.

I understand the differences between Motion and SL-4 as you present them, but I sure do appreciate and enjoy the Kenpo that I do have... no matter the name or descriptor.

Have a Great one!!

Your Brother
John


----------



## bayonet

I feel the same darn way. Here I am all by my lonesome, depressed and feeling blue living in Maui.....:rofl: We are under the 16 tech. paradigm...No extensions for shodan. So therefore am I not getting the "whole system"?? Maybe some kenpoist would say so. Mr. Huk does not care either way..24/16..how can you move and do you understand what you are doing...although I have to admit....watching Mr. Tatum's video helped me understand Long 4 better than if I just learned the form without doing the techs on the body. So where do we draw the line? DO we get a Sullivan student/Trejo student/Chapel student /Planas student and a Tatum student/ Mills student and have a royal rumble?? I am sure each one will bring an eye opening perspective to this beautiful art we all call
"American" Kenpo... :asian:


----------



## Doc

Brother John said:
			
		

> True.
> That's one of the things I like about doing my Kenpo (Motion Kenpo, my Kenpo.... Sam Ting I guess)... it's as adaptive to me as I am to it. I was just saying to Seig that I liked what he said; that our art serves the individual instead of the individual serving the art.
> 
> I understand the differences between Motion and SL-4 as you present them, but I sure do appreciate and enjoy the Kenpo that I do have... no matter the name or descriptor.
> 
> Have a Great one!!
> 
> Your Brother
> John


... and that's the way it was designed, so it works. Of course some do a better job than others, but that's life. No art has everyone equal in the same art.


----------



## jcraigking

You left off an important option... Insurance Companies


----------



## chtavis

I have to go with the look in the mirror vote. If the Kenpo is good and wise then the inspiration will take care of itself. The rest is marketing. One thing we should have learned from Ed Parker is that our mortality deals the final blow. Care about those you teach and teach them to care. If we do that we all succeed. Kenpo will evolve with the times it's designed to. personally I like the Larry Tatum students I've talked too and the why is what I've stated above. They seem to give a rip about the student. Remember this is an opinion pole before you rip me for accusing someone of NOT giving a rip....grin. Personally I don't think it really matters to many of us who the top dog is as long we keep showing up. Kenpo is that good.

CT


----------



## OneKickWonder

Many people might disagree with me but I think it will not be a big name that will influence Kenpo the most. The reason being is if you dont study Kenpo, you most likely dont even know who those people are. Instuctors, and I mean local schools in general, not big time, big name, although they have their part too,  will have the most influence. Why, you ask? Because these are the people that will bring students in and keep the art alive. The methods of teaching are evolving with each new black belt instructor.  Will people be more or less interested in Kenpo in the next 10 years. Will we be able to keep it alive? Will the new BJJ "Revolution" smother Kenpo? Only the new instructors at the new schools will be able to make the difference.


----------



## Carol

Jeff Speakman.  

I find his brand of Kenpo and his brand of business to be VERY impressive.


----------



## Tames D

Carol Kaur said:


> Jeff Speakman.
> 
> I find his brand of Kenpo and his brand of business to be VERY impressive.


I agree. He's also a good guy that doesn't deserve the flak he's getting for his 5.0 (in my opinion).


----------



## N1ck8586

SThiess said:


> Unless the Ego will be eliminated out of this system there will never be the true spirit of the Martial Arts in Kenpo. So I would say none of the above


 

Love your thinking


----------



## MSTCNC

Well, I'm kind of stuck on this one...

Partly due to my need to be better informed on the subject in general I suppose...

However, my top 3 (in alphabetical order) are Mr. Mills, Mr. Speakman, and Mr. Tatum...

All three are phenomenal Kenpoists (IMHO)... and I believe each one brings something different to the table...

So, I plan to meet and train with them all (and many more)... 

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew


----------



## rockky

Those that freely share what they know through the internet will impact Kenpo the most. Most of the other big names in the poll, I know of them, but I haven't seen much of what they've taught... probably because i haven't shelled out the money for their seminars and videos (though it wouldn't hurt if i did).

But consider the thousands upon thousands of hits by those who teach and show demos through the internet freely ... that's where the power and influence lies in this century. People like Joshua Ryer are impacting the masses-- perhaps even more numbers of people right now than all the poll's big names combined. He's teaching both kenpo practitioners and promoting kenpo to those who happen to stumble upon his youtube videos. moreover, he's building his own platform and reputation for himself through his "on the mat" program.  Keep an eye on Josh.

As I get closer to my black belt test, I'm going to post my own techniques on youtube to get feedback and promote kenpo to those who don't practice it.


----------



## Gotkenpo

QUI-GON said:


> I agree. He's also a good guy that doesn't deserve the flak he's getting for his 5.0 (in my opinion).


What flak from his 5.0?


----------



## rockky

when someone comes up with something new, doesn't flak follow...

isn't there a saying that says when a guy get's ahead of the line of soldiers, he'll run the risk of getting shot by his own men.


----------



## HINER

To impact the Parker system, the organization needs to teach the Parker system not a deviation thereof.


----------



## Tames D

Gotkenpo said:


> What flak from his 5.0?


There are those that feel his groundwork is not adequate (to put it mildly).


----------



## HINER

The question was who would impact EPAK, not American Kenpo/Kenpo/Kempo/etc. That is difference between Mr. Mills system and Mr. Parkers.


----------



## Brian Jones

HINER said:


> To impact the Parker system, the organization needs to teach the Parker system not a deviation thereof.


 
Not really. Impact, positive or negative, is impact.  One colud conceviably argue that the Gracies have had the largest impact (see various threads or Kenpo 5.0).  

Brian Jones


----------



## Hand Sword

Let's be honest. As the senior's get older and take a less active role in the Kenpo world more and more self made "masters" will continue to pop up with their organizations. The next 10 years will be like the past 10, just more and more ridiculous. The money and the marketing genie is out of the bottle ladies and gentleman, and there is no putting it back. The "legits" will continue to exist, but they will be fringe.

Then again, i'm not very chipper this A.M. and could be wrong. (hopefully so!)


----------



## Carol

Hand Sword said:


> Let's be honest. As the senior's get older and take a less active role in the Kenpo world more and more self made "masters" will continue to pop up with their organizations. The next 10 years will be like the past 10, just more and more ridiculous. The money and the marketing genie is out of the bottle ladies and gentleman, and there is no putting it back. The "legits" will continue to exist, but they will be fringe.
> 
> Then again, i'm not very chipper this A.M. and could be wrong. (hopefully so!)



It's also possible that the "legits" may not be fringe, but may not be the most famous or the most noticed.  Seems no matter what the art there is a lot more attention paid to the ridiculous and the controversial than there is to the quiet and humble.


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## Hand Sword

Hey! I didn't make fun of you! 


Seriously, that's very true. It's also part of the problem. It's been about who's the loudest, flashiest, etc.. and seems to be getting worse. Hopefully, the ridiculousness of it all will (and has to some extent already) cause them to flutter out and those who are legit to flourish.


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## Doc

Hand Sword said:


> Let's be honest. As the senior's get older and take a less active role in the Kenpo world more and more self made "masters" will continue to pop up with their organizations. The next 10 years will be like the past 10, just more and more ridiculous. The money and the marketing genie is out of the bottle ladies and gentleman, and there is no putting it back. The "legits" will continue to exist, but they will be fringe.
> 
> Then again, i'm not very chipper this A.M. and could be wrong. (hopefully so!)



Unfortunately, I think you're correct.


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## Goldendragon7

HINER said:


> To impact the Parker system, the organization needs to teach the Parker system not a deviation thereof.



Hey, now that's an interestlingl thought !!!

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death

Goldendragon7 said:


> Hey, now that's an interestlingl thought !!!
> 
> :asian:


I don't follow.
sean


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## Goldendragon7

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't follow.
> sean



Then you must be lost!


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## Touch Of Death

Goldendragon7 said:


> Then you must be lost!


Could be; I don't feel lost.:mst:
Sean


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## Big Don

I can't believe I read the whole thread in one sitting.
Who will impact it most for me, me.


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## Brother John

Big Don speak Big Truth!!!

The people who will have the biggest impact on the future of Kenpo??

*Those who:*

work hard
apply their entire being to what they're doing, Consistently
give them selves to their students/instructors and classmates
Keep an open mind
Maintain common sense
continually sharpen their abilities
perpetually refine the BASICS
and
CARE about the future of Kenpo!
Screw worrying about _WHO_.... (Kenpo shouldn't be the _'cult of personality'_)
*MAKE IT YOU!!!!!!!!!*​ 
Your Brother
John


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## Goldendragon7

Brother John said:


> (Kenpo shouldn't be the _'cult of personality'_)
> *MAKE IT YOU!!!!!!!!!*​ Your Brother
> John



WoW..... I like that!

:yoda:


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## Touch Of Death

Goldendragon7 said:


> WoW..... I like that!
> 
> :yoda:


But its my charming personality that gets me into fights in the first place. Shouldn't we be modeling ourselves to an ideal?
Sean


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## Bob White

I personally feel it will be the younger black belts who will step up and learn from the past. I feel it will be someone who will be in service to kenpo and not be looking for personal recognition but who will be recognized for their efforts. Wes Idol, Josh Ryer, Vishal Shukla, Michael Miller, Jim McClure, and Scott Montoya are some of the future leaders. These gentlemen have a passion for kenpo and I feel good about our future with these gentlemen carrying the torch. I know there are others not mentioned and I certainly hope that it becomes a consistant theme that our black belts are trying to serve kenpo and the communities they live in. It will not just happen, it will take hard work and effort to influence others.

"The heights by great men reached and kept,
Were not attained by sudden flight.
But they, while their companions slept,
Were toiling upward in the night."
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Vishal Shukla posted something recently about making a difference. If we can get our kenpo community to step up and try to be a part of making a difference we all win, and kenpo wins.
Respectfully,
Bob White


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## celtic_crippler

HINER said:


> To impact the Parker system, the organization needs to teach the Parker system not a deviation thereof.


 
So the answer is to traditionalize a "system" that was never intended to be traditionalized? 



Brother John said:


> Big Don speak Big Truth!!!
> 
> The people who will have the biggest impact on the future of Kenpo??
> 
> 
> *Those who:*
> 
> work hard
> apply their entire being to what they're doing, Consistently
> give them selves to their students/instructors and classmates
> Keep an open mind
> Maintain common sense
> continually sharpen their abilities
> perpetually refine the BASICS
> and
> CARE about the future of Kenpo!
> Screw worrying about _WHO_.... (Kenpo shouldn't be the _'cult of personality'_)
> *MAKE IT YOU!!!!!!!!!*​
> Your Brother
> John


 
I with Big Don and my brother, John. 

I seek out knowledge from the different off-shoots to get their take on Kenpo. I would rather not limit my study by only accepting that one way is better than another. I feel they all have something to offer and teach me. 

At the end of the day, it's about making the kenpo your own. Some may hesitate or even refuse to get on the mat with me because I don't subscribe to their way of thinking. That's fine, there's plenty of free thinking and knowledgable kenpoist out there that are willing to share their perspectives and also willing to admit they don't know it all and are just as willing to learn as I. IHMO, those folks are part of the spirit of "brotherhood" SGM Parker envisioned.  

That "brotherhood" is what will be necessary to not only impact, but advance Kenpo in the next 10 years and beyond. IMHO =-)


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## girlbug2

I think we'd have a prayer of answering this question if we could first come to an agreement on who has impacted American Kenpo in the _last_ 10 years.


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## kungfu penguin

i like speakman  i think he has something, i dont know  2nd choice is mills


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## Blindside

The great thing about this thread is that it started 1/2004, so we are already past the half-decade mark, and has anyone gotten any closer to the answer?


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## celtic_crippler

kungfu penguin said:


> i like speakman i think he has something, i dont know 2nd choice is mills


 
You know...Blindside has a point. 

At this time, I'd have to say Mr. Speakman has made the most drastic impact with the 5.0 material. 

No doubt many of the seniors are amazing, but Mr. Speakman has done more to "advance" the system in regards to keeping it up-to-date and moving forward from the way it was in 1990. IMHO 

SGM Parker is responsible for several incarnations of "Kenpo". He and the art he taught never stayed static (and that's backed up by things the seniors have said.) So...it doesn't make sense to me that it should just "stop" at that point in time where we lost him. 

In fact, I think if one were to be true to "Parker Kenpo" then it would require one to constantly study what they were doing and seek ways to become more effiecient and effective in the environment of the day; to continue to evolve. 

That's my thought for the moment...


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## JKD143

I don't study Kenpo, but have some friends, and professional contacts who do. I do study what are often considered "family" or "sister" arts of American Kenpo; Kaju and JKD.

As an American Kenpo "outsider" I would say Mr. Paul Mills. His approach and thought proccess regarding how to move his art forward is pretty genious, in my opionion. Having compared his videos to the videos of other seniors, I feel he is in a league of his own. That "guess" has been proven true, when comparing his motion and skills to that of others as I have seen them at various seminars (no, I have not attended seminars from all the seniors). The most compelling indicator to me, though, is how good most of Mill's students are, relative to the other BB Kenpo guys I have worked with. 

Of course, I am not a Kenpo guy, but from the little I have seen and experienced, he is the one I have often though "gee, I would like to train with that guy somethine..."


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## Milt G.

Hello,

I have a feeling that the real impact will come from a relative newcomer.  At least a "newcomer" as far as current notariety is concerned.

I think many of the current seniors are so involved in their own group, or program, that they will fail to impact EPAK as a whole.  They are already leaders of their own organizations, but cannot seem to set aside differences and politics and work with each other on a wide scale.

I think major impact will only come when there is one who can bring most, if not all, of the others together.  So far the current rank and file has fallen short of the mark.  In many cases by personal choice...

It will be a tall order to make any significant impact in EPAK, or any Kenpo for that matter...  I think many feel that the task may be bigger then the end result will be worth.

Just mt 1.5 cents. 

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Doc

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a feeling that the real impact will come from a relative newcomer.  At least a "newcomer" as far as current notariety is concerned.
> 
> I think many of the current seniors are so involved in their own group, or program, that they will fail to impact EPAK as a whole.  They are already leaders of their own organizations, but cannot seem to set aside differences and politics and work with each other on a wide scale.
> 
> I think major impact will only come when there is one who can bring most, if not all, of the others together.  So far the current rank and file has fallen short of the mark.  In many cases by personal choice...
> 
> It will be a tall order to make any significant impact in EPAK, or any Kenpo for that matter...  I think many feel that the task may be bigger then the end result will be worth.
> 
> Just mt 1.5 cents.
> 
> Thank you,
> Milt G.



The only impact on Kenpo anyone should be striving for, is their own, and their students if they teach. If I and my students are more than competent, than I've done what I'm supposed to do, and hope they will do the same. that's how you have a positive impact. There's all kinds a way many are having an impact, and most of it is already negative.


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## Brother John

Blindside said:


> The great thing about this thread is that it started 1/2004, so we are already past the half-decade mark, and has anyone gotten any closer to the answer?


I think so...
but the REAL answer is whoever has made the BIGGEST impact on You and Yours! ...So, the way I see it.... the "Correct Answer" depends on whom is asking. (they are legion)

Your Brother
John


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## Milt G.

Brother John said:


> I think so...
> but the REAL answer is whoever has made the BIGGEST impact on You and Yours! ...So, the way I see it.... the "Correct Answer" depends on whom is asking. (they are legion)
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
Hello,

I agree...  My teachers had the biggest "impact" on me...

Be it with their hands, feet, elbows or knees...  The list goes on and on...    

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## thecrow

i think jeff speakman, he is really starting to push now and so far i like what he is doing, i'm 33 so i grew up watching him, back then it was jeff, steven, or jean, jeff seemed to be the best, and the perfect weapon is a great movie.


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## DeilGyre

Paul Mills and Skip Hancock.  Their method of teaching and getting spontaneous results instantly is amazing.
These guys are true innovators. Guys out west have been doing BJJ incorporated intelligently into AKKI/Kenp2000 for years now.


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## Kenpo17

This is intersting at least to me, Mr. Tom Kelley has been offered on several occassions a 10th degree black, and he has turned them all down.  To this day he is still 9th degree, he says he doesn't except the 10th because Mr. Parker was 10th degree and that anyone else who studies Parkers Kenpo should not recieve a 10th degree black.


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## K831

Kenpo17 said:


> This is intersting at least to me, Mr. Tom Kelley has been offered on several occassions a 10th degree black, and he has turned them all down. To this day he is still 9th degree, he says he doesn't except the 10th because Mr. Parker was 10th degree and that anyone else who studies Parkers Kenpo should not recieve a 10th degree black.


 
To my knowledge Skip has also refused any "rank advancement" since Mr. Parker died.


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## Carol

Why does rank matter when discussing who will impact EPAK the most over the next 10 years?  I'd think actions and impact matter more than the amount of red.


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## K831

Carol Kaur said:


> Why does rank matter when discussing who will impact EPAK the most over the next 10 years? I'd think actions and impact matter more than the amount of red.


 
You're right, it doesn't matter. I think Kenpo17 was simply pointing out that it is interesting that some of the inidividuals who others consider "most impactful" have taken a stance on rank advancement. 

I was simply adding another talented individual who has taken the same stance.


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## Bob White

Doc said:


> The only impact on Kenpo anyone should be striving for, is their own, and their students if they teach. If I and my students are more than competent, than I've done what I'm supposed to do, and hope they will do the same. that's how you have a positive impact. There's all kinds a way many are having an impact, and most of it is already negative.



I agree with Doc but I also believe it is our responsibility to continue to serve our art. Ultimately the only thing we really control is ourselves but there is no doubt that as an instructor there is a strong influence presented. The responsibility is to try and present something of value.


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## Doc

Well, it's been more than 10 years and we now have the answer - nobody. That's not to say there aren't some good people doing good things, but those are good people who are doing goods things with kenpo being a conduit to help serve their communities, like my good friend Bob White and his wife who do a tremendous job and have impacted thousands over the years in a positive way. 

Kenpo helps them do that, but the art itself as a whole is stagnant with very little if any positive change. God bless Bob for keeping the right spirit moving forward and shining such a positive light on what the art can do for others that has nothing to do when personal rank or stripes on a dam belt.


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## Touch Of Death

Doc said:


> Well, it's been more than 10 years and we now have the answer - nobody. That's not to say there aren't some good people doing good things, but those are good people who are doing goods things with kenpo being a conduit to help serve their communities, like my good friend Bob White and his wife who do a tremendous job and have impacted thousands over the years in a positive way.
> 
> Kenpo helps them do that, but the art itself as a whole is stagnant with very little if any positive change. God bless Bob for keeping the right spirit moving forward and shining such a positive light on what the art can do for others that has nothing to do when personal rank or stripes on a dam belt.


Hind sight 20/20, Mark Zuckerberg had quite an impact.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Doc said:


> Well, it's been more than 10 years and we now have the answer - nobody. That's not to say there aren't some good people doing good things, but those are good people who are doing goods things with kenpo being a conduit to help serve their communities, like my good friend Bob White and his wife who do a tremendous job and have impacted thousands over the years in a positive way.
> 
> Kenpo helps them do that, but the art itself as a whole is stagnant with very little if any positive change. God bless Bob for keeping the right spirit moving forward and shining such a positive light on what the art can do for others that has nothing to do when personal rank or stripes on a dam belt.



I am glad that there are many individuals experimenting and moving things forward.  I am saddened that the majority of Kenpo is anchored in tradition and stagnant.   This stagnation was exactly what I ranted about so often 10 years ago.  Too much veneration of the past and not enough innovation for the future.


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