# Cheeky Request of this board



## jonah2 (Dec 1, 2005)

Hi all in the FMA section

I am an American Kenpo student. I am very happy with my path of study in American Kenpo, but am interested in the use of sticks. Thus far in my studies we have trained in empty hand defence against sticks (single) but only a limited number of strikes. I would be interest in learning more about the use of sticks, double sticks in particular. Unfortunately there are no Filipino schools in my area, and even if there was, I could not afford to study two systems. Hence my bold and cheeky request for free advice here

You cheeky &#8216;b&#8217; I here you say &#8211; I know but you cant blame me for trying

My first experience of the use of sticks was via my Kenpo instructor who taught me a pattern using two sticks that I have now found out to be generally called the standard six sinawali.

This is where I would like to commence in the use of sticks, the sinawali patterns. I know there is a damn sight more to learn to be proficient in a weapon art but I consider what I am doing to be a side-line to my main studies rather than a in-depth study. Although I have noticed an interesting link to the use of sinawali with empty hand thus far with blocking and striking.

To my question of this board. I assume there to be loads of sinawali patterns, my research thus far (about a week) has thrown up only a few which I have tried to write down in a manor for refernce which I insert below:

LH = Left Hand ; RH = Right Hand
fh = Fore Hand Strike ; bh = Back Hand Strike
(ft) = Follow through strike ; (rb) = rebound back strike

*THREE COUNT*

Start
RH chamber at right soulder
LH chamber under right arm
1
RH fh high
2
LH bh low
RH loop behind head to chamber at right shoulder
3
RH fh high 
LH chamber at left shoulder
4
LH fh high
RH chamber under left arm
5
RH bh low
LH loop behind head to chamber at left shoulder
6
LH fh high
RH chamber at right shoulder
Repeat from 1

*FOUR COUNT*

Start
RH chamber at right soulder
LH chamber at left shoulder
1
RH fh high (ft)
LH chamber at left shoulder
2
RH bh low (rb)
3
RH bh high (ft)
4
RH fh low (rb)
5
LH fh high (ft)
RH chamber at righ shoulder
6
LH bh low (rb)
7
LH bh high (ft)
8
LH fh low (rb)
Repeat from 1

*SIX COUNT (standard)*

Start
RH chamber at right soulder
LH chamber under right arm
1
RH fh high (ft)
2
LH bh low (ft)
RH chamber at left shoulder
3
RH bh high (rb)
LH chamber at left shoulder
4
LH fh high (ft)
RH chamber under left arm
5
RH bh low (ft)
LH chamber at right shoulder
6
LH bh high (rb)
RH chamber at right shoulder
Repeat from 1

*SIX COUNT (heaven) &#8211; As above, all strikes high*

*SIX COUNT (earth) &#8211; As above, all strikes low*

*TEN COUNT*

Start
LH chamber under right arm
RH chamber at right soulder
1
LH bh high (rb)
RH chamber at right shoulder
2
RH fh high (rb)
LH chamber at right shoulder
3
LH bh high (rb)
RH chamber at right shoulder
4
RH fh high (ft)
LH chamber under right arm
5
LH bh high (ft)
RH chamber at left shoulder
6
RH bh high (rb)
LH chamber at left shoulder
7
LH fh high (rb)
RH chamber at left shoulder
8
RH bh high (rb)
LH chamber at left shoulder
9
LH fh high (ft)
RH chamber under left arm
10
RH bh high (ft)
LH chamber at right shoulder
Repeat from 1

Can anyone here advise if these are in fact correct or point me in the direction of more patterns available on the net or other sources.

I cheekily thank this board in advance of helpful comments

Respectful student of the arts, Jonah

**EDIT** sorry the above info was imput as a table but that info was lost in posting. The table was more compact and identified the striking hand and returning hand seperately - oops


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

Well, a sinawali can't really be 'wrong' so I'd say yes, they're right! The high-high-high, high-low-high, low-low-low versions of the six count sinawali you describe are very standard. In Modern Arnis we do a variant of your four count that goes high RH forehand, low RH backhand, high LH forehand, low LH backhand. It's called single sinawali. This can be done either from the closed position that you describe as a starting position, or the open position (each stick on its corresponding shoulder). But there are so many sinawalis that we could go on forever with them!

One pattern I commonly see through JKD schools is to do start from a closed position and do a high RH forehand abaniqo (wrist-whipping strike with the flat of the blade), high RH backhand abaniqo, high RH forehand abaniqo, followed by a (regular) high LH backhand strike and a (regular) high RH backhand strike, ending in the closed position on the left side; then repeat with the LH. Then vary it by doing a high-low-high series of abaniqos, low-high-low, low-low-low; then put it all together (high-high-high, strike, strike; high-low-high, strike, strike; low-high-low, strike, strike; low-low-low, strike, strike). You can also vary the strikes to be low then high rather than both high.

Once you get good at any of these, remember to move about--don't just stand there! Circle, drop to one knee, step up onto a chair for a minute, etc. Also try them empty-hand (palm-to-palm), or with one stick and one empty hand or short stick.

For many sinawalis, your rhythm should be such that if a person closes his or her eyes, he or she shouldn't be able to tell where you are in the sinawali by the pattern of the clicks. Also, watch out for "windshield washing"--that is, moving the sticks very close to your body like windshield wiper blades rather than out where they can make contact with your partner's stick. By the same token, though, don't sweat the occasional failure to hit sticks.

Do you have a partner, or are you doing these in the air or against a bag or something?


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## jonah2 (Dec 1, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Do you have a partner, or are you doing these in the air or against a bag or something?


 
Firstly thank you for your reply and interesting links to other discussions.

At present (only really been practicing for about 2 weeks) I have made my own stick out of cut up broom handles, these are alot heavier than the ones I used when my instuctor showed me the first pattern. I think I prefer the heavy ones cause it makes me work harder, When I switch back to light ones the speed increases dramatically even at my novice stage.

I am practicing mainly in the air to get the sequencing and timings right although I cant resist wacking stuff with them. The technique is completely different with the reistance but I'm getting used to it. I will hopefully train harder with others when I get a bit more profficient.

I also currently doing some build up for my wrists and forearms to make things easier. My forearms aiked abit after the first day of using the broom handles. mind you I was at it for over 3 hours 

Again thanks for your reply and advice - looking forward to more. i assume there are drills for 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9 etc counts as well but I suppose, like any type of form they are made up of basic strikes that you can put together in any order. I also assume that there are more than just the fore hand or backhand strikes such as thrusts and jabs with both ends of the stick and presumably blocks / parrys and locks with the sticks as well as pure strikes.

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

What I think of as sinawali doesn't have blocks/parries/locks/etc., except in so far as a strike can be a block. Each person does the same thing in a pattern. We certainly have two-person, one-or-two stick drills that work those other techniques, but I wouldn't call them sinawalis. In Modern Arnis we practice many of those techniques out of solo baston which is a single stick version of single sinwali (or maybe single sinawali is a double stick version of solo baston).

Practicing with heavier sticks is common advice, but especially with abaniqo and hirada (a certain circular strike) techniques you can hurt your wrists if you're not ready for it. For actually doing a sinawali with someone else, though, consider rattan.

I think the lowest count sinawali I know has 3 counts, of which there are many variations. From there I've seen individual patterns that go as high as 12 or so counts (plus the occasional one that goes longer, becoming in effect a mini two-person kata). Most of the ones I know are symmetric in some sense, though a few of them have a handedness (e.g., a four count sinawali that does the high-high-high of Heaven Six but retracts on the third strike, then adds a fourth high strike to end up chambered on the same side that you started on). I prefer symmetric ones. I've seen a few that use a position where your arms are crossed, sticks roughly parallel to the ground with right hand on left bicep and left hand under right bicep (like a person standing with arms folded on their chest). I don't like that position.

There are certainly sinawalis with thrusts, figure 8 strikes (ocho-ocho), butt end (punyo) strikes, strikes that are sword-based that wouldn't make much sense with a stick, and so on. (Note, terminology varies from FMA to FMA!) I like ones that use the figure 8, actually. Usually with the thrusts the sticks don't click--you both do a thrust in the air, toward your partner (but often aiming outside the body for safety). Of course, it all depends on what's taught in the particular art. In Modern Arnis we traditionally have a relatively small number of sinawalis (single, Heaven Six, Standard Six that we call double, and Earth Six that we call reverse), plus a related drill we call redonda. In JKD (where I study it) we focus on Heaven, Standard, and Earth Six plus the kob kob.

Since you're working on your own, don't overlook the amarra (armor) patterns, which are single (usually) or double stick patterns designed to protect the body, or the simple concept of carenza (twirling, i.e. shadow boxing with the stick). If you work with a partner, there are many single and double stick patterns that are not techniqcally sinawalis but that may give you some of the same benefits, plus getting in the blocking etc. you mentioned (e.g. sumbrada, called six-count drill in Modern Arnis). (I would be remiss if I didn't mention that, as in so many arts, our blocks are ideally strikes themselves.) There's a lot out there!


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## jonah2 (Dec 1, 2005)

Arnisador,

Thanks very much for your detailed responces - all a bit much to take on board immediately but it gives me some more areas to research

Can you direct me to some written out material or videos to learn more from (free ones if possible)

Again thanks for your time - I owe you a favour my friend, if I can be of assistance in anything

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

You're very welcome! I'm not sure where to find sinawali-specific videos, though. You can almost certainly find the Complete Sinawali book at your local bookstore--I just found it at Borders a few weeks ago--and flip through it. It's about a whole system named Sinawali, though, not just the drills.

Ask at FMATalk.com (a *MartialTalk* affiliate) about video clips. Someone there will surely know!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 1, 2005)

Jonah,

If you can definately pick up the *Complete Sinwali* book it
is very good. Sounds like you are having some fun starting
to work with your sticks. Remember though, that Hardwood
sticks sometimes break when you are banging them against
something else that is hard. When a hardwood stick breaks
they generally send jagged pieces flying around. That is why
most stick oriented arts prefer the rattan sticks because they splinter
instead of shatter. Just some food for thought. Good luck and 
keep training.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## arnisador (Dec 1, 2005)

*Apollo* posted a list of FMA video links on FMATalk, one of which is to Rick Manglinong's "Super Sinawali" and is hosted right here on *MartialTalk*:
http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/bill_rick03.mov

This is an unusually long sinawali! I think this is the same one, demonstrated by two *MartialTalk* members:
http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/bob3.mov


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## jonah2 (Dec 5, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> You're very welcome! I'm not sure where to find sinawali-specific videos, though. You can almost certainly find the Complete Sinawali book at your local bookstore--I just found it at Borders a few weeks ago--and flip through it. It's about a whole system named Sinawali, though, not just the drills.
> 
> Ask at FMATalk.com (a *MartialTalk* affiliate) about video clips. Someone there will surely know!


 
Sir,
Thanks for the link to the other site - have to keep my eye on that one.

Just checked out a few sourses for the book on line and seems to be an ecconomic source of information and a few reviews seem good. I will be getting a copy shortly. Thanks for the direction.

Im trying to get hold of a digital video camera at the moment to record my progress - may be I can post it for some critisism here soon

Thanks also for the other links to video clips - I recognised a few of the strike patterns (not many) the rest was a bit of a blur but makes me want to learn more.

I'll try to keep you posted of my progress - By responding to my original post you have un-knowingly signed up to be my virtual instructor.

Jonah


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## jonah2 (Dec 5, 2005)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Jonah,
> 
> If you can definately pick up the *Complete Sinwali* book it
> is very good. Sounds like you are having some fun starting
> ...


 
Sir,
Thanks for the advice - Theres me thinking a stick was a stick. How wrong could I be. I went down the route of cut-up broom handles because they only cost me 1 pound. If I keep it up I will have to invest in some proper ones. Until then I'll watch out for the breakages. I struck my own soulder last night - the sticks feel pretty solid to me!!

Thanks for the reply

Jonah


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## jonah2 (Dec 5, 2005)

Hi everyone here again

Slightly different question

Length of sticks. After watching some clips on the net and researching buying some sticks I have noticed a huge difference in the length of sticks but all being used in the same way.

I have been told that the method of measuring them is the distance between your armpit to the palm of your hand. Is this correct!

I have cut my home made ones at 27 1/2" (70cm). Slightly longer than the method above but somehow (dont know why) that method felt too short.

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 5, 2005)

This varies quite a bit from art to art, plus personal preference. Usually in Modern Arnis we use a stick that's around 26" long, give or take 2". But some styles use longer sticks. In sparring the extra reach could matter, but for what you're doing a differene of a few inches here or there means nothing. If 27.5" feels good to you, use it!


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## JPR (Dec 6, 2005)

Stick length is sometimes set by the bladed weapon you are emulating (if your are at all). A bolo, barong, pinute, espada, and kampilan all differ in length and regional usage, therefore a style may prefer a stick length based upon that. 

One thing that I have found is to make the stick length fit you (at least in the beginning). When my children started training kali with me their biggest challenge at first was simply dealing with a stick that was longer than their arm! Once I cut down a pair for each of them, they could actually start focusing upon the training and not the awkward, off balance feeling they had with the larger sticks.

Stick diameter also varies from style / praticioner's preference / training goal. Lighter / thinner sticks allow you longer training / focus on precise movement while thicker sticks tend to help you build strength and endurance.

As with so many things in FMA, there is no final, definitive answer.

Jerry


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## jonah2 (Dec 6, 2005)

JPR,

Thanks for the reply - I didnt want to get too used to my home made ones if they were the wrong size. Its harder to undo mistakes than get them right in the first place.

Anyway thanks for confirming this, I can go on safe in the knowledge I'm not starting too incorrectly.

jonah


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## jonah2 (Dec 7, 2005)

Hello FMA section again

OK heres my next question

How important is your grip of the stick

I have messed about with a couple different grips to see what the most comfortable was

What is the correct grip or does it change dependant on the type of strike. I can quite see that a follow through type stike may require a tighter grip than a rebounding type strike.

I have found that I have more flexibility with a fist type grip with only light grip of the last two little fingers, but, I seem to gain more accuracy by extending my thumb along the shank of the stick

What are your thoughts

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 7, 2005)

I would advise against extending your thumb along the stick. Instead, guide it by imagining it has a blade, as if it were a sword, and striving to hit with that blade area each time. Apart from that, arts differ in how high up from the bottom of the stick they generally hold the stick, but most will use a full fist on it (unlike in Kendo/Kumdo, where you principally grab with only some of the fingers). We usually discourage people from opening the hand, as is so tempting when twirling the stick--you should keep a full grip on it at all times.

How hard to grab? Experience will teach you how to grab hard enough that the stick isn't blasted out of your hands by impact, but not so hard that it's tiring. If you're not losing the stick when you hit things or when you swing hard in the air (i.e., the dreaded "solo disarm") then your grip is probably OK.


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## jonah2 (Dec 7, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I would advise against extending your thumb along the stick.


 
Ok I'll tuck the thumb down then - thanks.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Instead, guide it by imagining it has a blade, as if it were a sword, and striving to hit with that blade area each time.


 
OOHHH. So a back hand strike should impact using the same area on the stick that a forehand does.

I think i've been doing the backhand strike sort of opposite to the fore hand. In terms of imagining the stick as a blade i've been hitting the back hand with "the blunt edge"

DOH - back to the drawing board on that one, but thanks for the instruction



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Apart from that, arts differ in how high up from the bottom of the stick they generally hold the stick, but most will use a full fist on it.


 
At present I am holding the sticks with a whole hands distance up the stick (about 4"). I am assuming this end of this stick can be used for striking (a'la riffle butt whipping) or trapping of arms, neck, other weapons etc.

As always sir, thanks for you input. It is much appreciated.

jonah 
(hopefully going to borrow a camera over the weekend to tape my progress so far - should be interesting to see myself or how bad I really am.)


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## arnisador (Dec 7, 2005)

If you get a video clip, please post it! Don't be shy.

As a rule, when using a stick as a stick in the FMA we rarely hit with what would be the flat of the blade (that is, the flat side of a sword), or with what would be the belly of the blade (that is, the middle section of the stick as opposed to the end). There are exceptions; in particular, the abaniqo strikes with the flat of the blade in a sort-of backhanded motion (but not moving like a Karate-style backhand). Almost surely you want to be striking with the "blade" each time. It's better body mechanics for a stronger strike, and also you're less likely to disarm yourself. (Compare the position of the stick in your hand on the fore-handed or back-handed flat of the blade strike to an escape from a wrist hold--the stick can come out from between your fingers on impact in the same way that you pull your wrist out between your opponent's fingers when escaping the hold.) There are other reasons for this as well. It's a common problem as people try to speed up their sinawalis that they do so by taking shortcuts that give them less effective strikes, and this is commonly one of those shortcuts people end up accidentally taking.

In Modern Arnis the usual advice is to hold the stick two finger-widths from the end. Other arts hold it much higher, and everyone must find where they're comfortable. I think 4" may be a little high at first and I'd encourage you to move a little closer to the end, but it isn't a problem and there are certainly many FMAs where that would be considered fine. Some arts make great use of that stick length at the butt end, others less so. There are sinawalis where you strike those short ends together in a hooking sort of strike, and for that you'd probably want a fist's length of stick there.

You're most welcome for these comments. I am glad to hear they have helped you! Soon you'll be ready to add footwork.


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## jonah2 (Dec 7, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> As a rule, when using a stick as a stick in the FMA we rarely hit with what would be the flat of the blade (that is, the flat side of a sword), or with what would be the belly of the blade (that is, the middle section of the stick as opposed to the end)......Almost surely you want to be striking with the "blade" each time. It's better body mechanics for a stronger strike, and also you're less likely to disarm yourself. (Compare the position of the stick in your hand on the fore-handed or back-handed flat of the blade strike to an escape from a wrist hold--the stick can come out from between your fingers on impact in the same way that you pull your wrist out between your opponent's fingers when escaping the hold.) .....


 
Cuh - obvious when you really examin it - amazing what you don't fully examin when you first start learning something. Mistake number two from me was that i;'ve been using the belly (well 3/4 of the way up the stick) for the strikes. Much a kin to the meat of a cricket bat. But I can see the advantage of using the tips as this is moving at a higher velocity. Only disadvantage I suppose is that there is a less margin for error in depth using the tips, but if your fighting another with sticks you need a greater distance from his weapons also.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> You're most welcome for these comments. I am glad to hear they have helped you! Soon you'll be ready to add footwork.


 
I've already started adding footwork. I dont see the point of staying stationary unless you are built like a brick out house. I suppose the advantage of already studying another art (particularly Kenpo) before picking up the sticks is that stances, and transitional movements whilst still striking, are fairly well established.

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 7, 2005)

Honestly, in doing sinawalis I think that most people end up hitting further down the stick than they do when they are just taking a regular strike at people. In having to click sticks each time, it's natural. But yes, the tip will give a stronger impact, and depending on the strike and how it falls on the person's body, the edge on the end of the stick may actually cut (but I wouldn't try for that effect).

Mentioning a bat brings up a good point that not everything that is vaguely stick-like has the same properties. Try this with a pair of axe handles some day (*if* your wrists are strong enough--you really can injure your wrists with heavy sticks). Techniques change subtly for sticks vs. swords vs. bats, etc. On the other hand, the basic techniques work very well for a wide variety of weapons (we say "It's all the same" although of course it isn't _exactly_ the same) and so learning these ideas and movements has great generality.

A Kenpoist (or possibly Kajukenbo-ist?) joined the local FMA class in which I am studying this week. He immediately dropped into a deep horse stance for the Heaven Six sinawali, and I had trouble getting him up out of it! I don't know what footwork you're doing, but usually you want to be light on your feet. Often we'll go low for a low strike, especially in Earth Six sinawali, but always light on the feet and mobile, moving a round, circling, changing direction, and trying to get some hip into those strikes. This mobility issue was hard for me initially as I came from a traditional Okinwan Karate background.


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## jonah2 (Dec 12, 2005)

Sir,
Been away from the computer for a few days, hence the gap in my responce. Didn't get the camera so i'll have to wait before I post a clip.


			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> A Kenpoist (or possibly Kajukenbo-ist?) joined the local FMA class in which I am studying this week. He immediately dropped into a deep horse stance for the Heaven Six sinawali, and I had trouble getting him up out of it! I don't know what footwork you're doing, but usually you want to be light on your feet. Often we'll go low for a low strike, especially in Earth Six sinawali, but always light on the feet and mobile, moving a round, circling, changing direction, and trying to get some hip into those strikes. This mobility issue was hard for me initially as I came from a traditional Okinwan Karate background.


 
I know what you mean about deep stances. I have a Wado background my-self. It took me a long time to drop the low and deep stances (I still think i'm a little deep in some stances). Kenpo promotes a good solid base but not the traditional low and deep Okinawan style which is difficult to maintain mobility. In my mind the stances in kenpo are flowing and would suit constant movement.

At present I am only using a stright switch movement with the feet. I am withdrwing each leg in turn on beat 2 and 5 on the six count. I read somewhere that as these are where a low knee strike could be thrown its best to draw back the target. From clips I've seen of people doing this footwork their stance is similar (but not the same) as we would class a forward bow (stance) ie weight distribution 70/30 front leg/back leg with hips and shoulders facing forward. However, I have been practicing with two slightly different stances. The first would be what we would class a nuetral stance ie weight distribution 50/50 with shoulders and hips angled away from the front (horse stance on the angle) or the traditional boxers stance, similar to the forward bow but not as deep and with the rear leg bent and rear foot on the ball rather than flat. I'm sure there will be alot of my fellow kenpoist will strike me down for body mechanics here. 

I'm tending to favour a transitional foward through nuetral stance from counts 2 to 3 then back up to feet together (high horse) at count 4. This brings the hips into play adding torque to the strike (I think)

Looking forward to further discussion and tips

jonah


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## JPR (Dec 12, 2005)

If you are going to do footwork in FMA, you will quickly find the need to do triangular type moving.  Most (all?) FMA styles have this triangular footwork in lieu of linear.  It is essential to zoning away from weapons into zero pressure zones, or to flanking an opponent.

   A simple drill follows:

   To start, imagine (or better yet get some tape and lay out on the floor ) an X with the top arms and the bottom legs going off at 45 degree angles.  Put yourself at the center of the X.  The top portion in front of you (a V if you will) is the advancing female triangle, the portion behind you is the retreating male triangle.  Now begin doing your siniwali.  Assuming it is a six count, as you throw your first strike, step up the right side of the female triangle.  As you throw your third strike, step back to the center.  As you throw strike number 4 step up the left side of the triangle, strike 6 step back to the center.  Repeat, repeat, repeat.  

   You can then do the same drill on the retreating angles.

   Circling forward and backward are also good drills / patterns for your footwork.

   Hope this helps.

   Jerry


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## jonah2 (Dec 12, 2005)

JPR said:
			
		

> To start, imagine (or better yet get some tape and lay out on the floor ) an X with the top arms and the bottom legs going off at 45 degree angles. Put yourself at the center of the X. The top portion in front of you (a V if you will) is the advancing female triangle, the portion behind you is the retreating male triangle. Now begin doing your siniwali. Assuming it is a six count, as you throw your first strike, step up the right side of the female triangle. As you throw your third strike, step back to the center. As you throw strike number 4 step up the left side of the triangle, strike 6 step back to the center. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
> 
> You can then do the same drill on the retreating angles.
> 
> ...


Ok, I just tried this and fell into the movements very comfortably, both 'male' and 'female' (BTW thanks for the description - heard it mensioned before and thought it was a reference to inside and outside of attacks).

Any reason you step on counts 1 and 4 and return on counts 3 and 6 or is it a timing / co-ordination / form thing. As i mensioned before I can understand stepping on the 'male' triangle on counts 2 and 5 to withdraw the leg from a possible strike. 

Thanks for the responce anyway

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 12, 2005)

There are many ways to do the footwork with it. Some people step to avoid the strike, others to get power in their own strikes. Honestly, as long as you're moving it's probably fine!


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## JPR (Dec 12, 2005)

Well, my first answer to any reason is because that is the way I was taught the drill.   

   The second answer would be, it is just a co-ordination thing.  You could, if you have the room, always step forward on alternating angles.  Just about any pattern you can think of works, as you are training your feet and hands to move simultaneously.  Also, though some movements translate directly to sparring / fighting applications, be careful of projecting the drill too far into this territory.  The drills are more for development of skills that you later apply to your sparring.

   Jerry


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## jonah2 (Dec 12, 2005)

Thank you Arnisador and JPR - more questions and discussions later I'm sure but for now back to the sticks eh!

jonah


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## jonah2 (Dec 16, 2005)

Ok - hope you guys aren't bored of me yet

I've read that the FMA tend to concentrate more on angles of attack with regard to striking rather than on specific target - which I can understand.

Although I can see that any contact of stick to target would be good I assume that you would train to taget in areas of maximum devistation.

Could someone explaing the main target areas and the angles to which these targets should be attacked or alternatively any that should be avoided

For instance I can see that a temple strike would be done most effectively on a downward diagonal path transfering the maximum impact into the target. Would it go against any principles to say attack the temple with a horizontal strike or indeed an upward diagonal strike.

Im trying to relate my kempo principles to the stick.

jonah


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## JPR (Dec 19, 2005)

Jonah,

   This is a bit of a harder question to give you an answer on due to a large number of variables.  So, in an attempt, to give you something of an answer, here I go.

   Variable 1: Style / Family.  What style are you studying, or do you intend to study.  Each style or family of FMA has a template of angles of attack, that being said, there really are only so many angles to choose from.  Diagonal down, diagonal up, horizontal, vertical, and thrusts cover the basics of most all systems.  The thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26755 has several of these templates from different styles.

   Variable 2: Range.  At long range, I target your hand, because it is all I can reach.  As the range closes, more of your body becomes available for me to target and I can start hunting your head, arm, knee, ribs, foot, what ever.  At close / extremely close range I can not even strike you well with the belly of the stick and would then transition to using the punyo and looking to strike your head mostly (maybe a collar bone smash with the punyo).

   Variable 3: Target.  To some extent the target determines the strike.  I could use a thrust against your hand, but it is a low probability that I will hit your hand with a thrust.  Therefore, I would use some other type of strike at your hand.  

   Variable 4: Stick or blade.  This can change what you target and how you strike.  The type of blade you are training with can also make a difference (a barong isnt the best for thrusting).

   Variable 5: Weapon position.  What you target may well depend upon where you are striking / thrusting from.  If I am at close range to you and my weapon is low, I probably target your body and not your head (as it is too far away).

   This isnt meant to be an exhaustive list, just a sampling of the variables you face.  When you start mixing them you get a huge basket of possibilities.  Close range with the stick has far different targets than close range with the knife.  

   Ok, now that I have wandered far from your original question, Ill come back to it and choose one of the variables to help me, range.  

   At long range you are targeting the hand. Downward diagonals, horizontal, or vertical shots can all get at a hand.

   At medium range, most of the body becomes available.  You target head , arms, knees, body.

   At close range with a stick you are into punyo striking.

   As to principles, when I ask FMA instructors a question, the usual answer is, you could do it that way.  Then they usually show me a better idea.  The main principle is efficiency / optimal use of motion.  An upward diagonal strike could hit the temple, but the knee / groin / ribs are much closer.  Unless, of course, you have the guy bent over double with the previous damage you did to him and his head is hovering at about waist level, then an upward diagonal is an efficient head strike.

   In general, pick one systems template, learn it, and drill it so that the strikes can be chained together and flow.

   Jerry


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## jonah2 (Dec 19, 2005)

JPR

Thanks very much for the responce. As I stated in my first post I am not 'Studying' any particular art in the correct sence of the word. I am very interested in the use of double stick since my introduction to them in a Kenpo class a few weeks ago. Something about it just feels good and I just want to give it a go. unfortunately there are no FMA schools local to me and I cant afford to study two arts. Kenpo is my chosen art but want to add some stick work as and when I can (sometimes in the very early hours of the morning).

Of course when you are not training from an instructor you can train incorrectly with results that are hard to correct, however I cant help swinging the sticks around so want to learn as correctly as I can. I obviously will never be as good as I could be with them if I trained FMA, but at least I'll be doing something.

For some reason I can't get the link you provided to work, however, I have read a thread regarding patterns from a vast number of sources and it was very informative. I think it must be the same one

The reason I asked the question was that through my Kenpo studies to date I have learned that there are vast numbers of things open to you, of which, if you follow the concepts and principles laid down rather then set actions you cant do much wrong. but, alot can go wrong when you deviate from them. So my question was trying to learn what I can do by finding out basically what I shouldn't do!

Thank you for your advice. I am trying to work different patterns of movement at present to strengthen my technique and mould the muscle memory, but don't want to be doing anything that I have to un-do.

I'm hoping to use this thread as a learning tool and offer some of my findings for criticism. I consider this to be my best way of learning. So If you (or any one else) wants to set me question or task or give any tips please do - I would appreciate it greatly.

jonah


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## jonah2 (Dec 19, 2005)

JPR said:
			
		

> Variable 2: Range. At long range, I target your hand, because it is all I can reach. As the range closes, more of your body becomes available for me to target and I can start hunting your head, arm, knee, ribs, foot, what ever. At close / extremely close range I can not even strike you well with the belly of the stick and would then transition to using the punyo and looking to strike your head mostly (maybe a collar bone smash with the punyo).


I assume by 'punyo' you mean the short or butt end of the stick. 

I've tried examining this lately, and it would seem to me this type of stike is restricted to a 'stabbing motion' due to the restriction of not hitting yourself with the logger section of the stick. I would love to learn more obviously



			
				JPR said:
			
		

> Variable 3: Target. To some extent the target determines the strike. I could use a thrust against your hand, but it is a low probability that I will hit your hand with a thrust. Therefore, I would use some other type of strike at your hand.


We train to some extent with empy hand to strike hard with soft and soft with hard. Presumably a weapon now changes that to target hard areas (bone) as a majority with I suppose the exception of a thrust which a can see working well on a sturnum stike

Cheers

jonah


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## Ern-Dog (Dec 19, 2005)

> I assume by 'punyo' you mean the short or butt end of the stick.
> 
> I've tried examining this lately, and it would seem to me this type of strike is restricted to a 'stabbing motion' due to the restriction of not hitting yourself with the logger section of the stick. I would love to learn more obviously


 
In FCS Kali we have a range dedicated to the use of the punyo strike. We call it Punyo Mano. In short, it deals with different methods of striking with the punyo, and the ability to generate a lot of striking power in close proximaty to your opponant. We also teach the the use of the punyo as a means to manipulate and move your opponants limbs and body.


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## jonah2 (Dec 19, 2005)

Ern Dog,

Thanks for joining in.

I'd love for someone to elaborate on striking related to the punyo. 

With regard to manipulating / moving the opponent. I have run through these things previously (god, do I ever stop). I can see manupulation working well with one stick and a grab, but not with two sticks. I can see the panyo also being very useful in the 'trap' of weapons (non edged) or limbs / head.

Any chance of listing some things for me to try.

jonah (the cheeky request guy)


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2005)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> The reason I asked the question was that through my Kenpo studies to date I have learned that there are vast numbers of things open to you, of which, if you follow the concepts and principles laid down rather then set actions you cant do much wrong. but, alot can go wrong when you deviate from them.


 
As *JPR* indicates, in the FMA you'll get a lot more of 'sure, you could do it that way' followed by a principle which may work better. It's less proscriptive than many other martial arts. You don't get much 'the elbow should be exactly one fist-width away from the body' (as I did when I took Karate) but instead you get a lot of more general advice. The principles come first in the FMA, from which techniques are worked out; I viewed my Karate training, to a certain extent, as having to extract the principles from the techniques. In Kenpo I believe the two go more hand-in-hand (techniques and principles together).

Angles of attack in name vary from art to art, but basically you get the usual vertical, horizontal, and diagonal slashes, some thrusts, and a few specialized strikes. As to targets, the stick is good for hard surfaces, but will hurt most places that it lands. Still, people will take a surprisingly hard shot to the forearm or thigh and keep coming. Land the same strike on the elbow or kneecap and it's a different story. In a stick fight things move very quickly--weapon speed greatly exceeds hand speed--so it may be optimistic to plan on targetting the thumb (often thought of as optimal for getting your opponent to drop his stick) rather than just anywhere on the hand.

Remember also that many FMA practitioners will view the stick as a substitute for the sword--less so in sinawalis, perhaps, because of the way the sticks tend to clank together, but even still, within a sinawali a strike may be viewed as a sword strike. That changes things.


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2005)

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18544
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28523
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=162
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=216

The last link describes one sinawali that does use the punyo (butt end of the stick).


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## jonah2 (Dec 19, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> See also:
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18544
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28523
> http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=162
> ...


 
Thanks arnisador, informative as always - I read the description of the punyo sinawali and it meant absolutely nothing to me - couldn't envisage the motion - but I will read it again and try it

In that post you describe this:

"...Do a right hirada (redondo) strike to the end of the other person's stick..."

What does this mean  **edit - I should read your other links before I post silly comments like this - sorry**

jonah


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2005)

Hmmm, the hirada is a circular ('flywheel') motion that is entirely in the vertical plane. It's hard to describe...stand right foot forward with the stick in your right hand, running along your waist, more-or-less parallel to the floor. Face a little toward your opponent. Using mostly your wrist and not much elbow, but a little bit of hip motion turning back to your left, whip the stick through a circle in a vertical plane, targetting your opponent's wrist. For much of this motion, your right palm faces the wall to your left (again, more-or-less). Make a full circle and come back to (essentially) your starting position. This should be a very fast strike.

It's similar to an abaniqo in some ways but strikes with the edge of the blade, not the flat, and continues through in a circle rather than whipping back along its outgoing path.

Don't try this with a heavy stick--it can be hard on the wrist.


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