# Can knife fights be won by overpowering your opponent? By gradually moving knife closer until it pierces?Can disarms be done with brute strength too?



## Bullsherdog (Sep 23, 2021)

Saving Private Ryan's infamous knife fight scene has a German soldier win the clinch fight simply because he overpowers the Ranger guy and with terrifying bloodthirsty patience he simply waits for the knife to slowly push through until it enters through the Ranger's chest. And I must add the Ranger actually even brutally bites the German soldier so hard during the clinch blood splatters from his hand but he still ultimately manages to put the knife through with his horrifying endurance and strength.

However a fact about this scene that everyone forgets is.......... The whole reason the German soldier was able to stab the Ranger in the first place was because it was the Ranger who pulled out the knife and tried to stab the German. During the groundfight the German while atop him was so strong he manages to let go of one of his hands in the clinch and quickly use it to disarm the knife hand of the Ranger (which the Nazi was holding rather easily like a strong man with his left hand). Basically he was like a strongman who can make you tap out simply by squeezing your arm. Not lying watch the scene on Youtube. The Ranger's knife hand was literally stuck frozen and Nazi guy was also overpowering his empty arm so much that he didn't need to retaliate when he let go of his right hand to literally snatch the knife away from the Ranger's other hand like stealing baby from a candy.

I am curious in real life knife fights can be decided this way with imply having more endurance and strength and by sheer overpowering?


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## Blindside (Sep 23, 2021)

Uh, yes.  Also the German's technique was terrible, there is much easier way to do what he did that doesn't require straight muscle strength, however in my class we do call that technique the "Saving Private Ryan."


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## Buka (Sep 23, 2021)

Anything can happen in a fight, anything can happen in a knife fight. And, yes, brute strength is it's own particular form of threat, but like most things, it depends.

I've done a lot of knife fight training, including grappling while drawing blades. (which is a trip)

Standing, we even used to hold sort of a tournament. Fifteen, twenty guys, (all knife students) each with a training blade, everybody throws in ten or twenty bucks, then do like a random straight bracket and go at it. Lose and you're out. No judging, everyone knew when they were dead, or slashed someplace where they'd bleed out in less than a minute. After that minute he'd drop out.

Once in a while someone would yell out, "Did he get me?" and others would yell, "dead meat" or something similarly silly and the man would drop himself out.

When we would do it for money, everybody trained and fought more alert, se we did it a lot. Sometimes we'd do it several times a session. Never a bad thing when you leave a training session with a couple hundred extra bucks in your pocket. It kept you sharp, pun absolutely intended.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2021)

Trained with a guy once who was very good with a knife, he told me the something his teacher told him. "Understand if you are in a knife fight, you will get cut."


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 23, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Trained with a guy once who was very good with a knife, he told me the something his teacher told him. "Understand if you are in a knife fight, you will get cut."


I think if you changed it to "probably" it would be more accurate. I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. Two of those I came out without any injury.
I do think you have to accept the strong possibility that you will get cut, but it's by no means a certainty.


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## Buka (Sep 23, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Trained with a guy once who was very good with a knife, he told me the something his teacher told him. "Understand if you are in a knife fight, you will get cut."


I look at it as three possible outcomes.

You get cut/stabbed and he doesn’t.

He gets cut/stabbed and you don’t.

You both get cut/stabbed.

So….you’re odds ain’t that great from the git go. But this really depends on how much the element of surprise is involved. For me, I’m not trying to stab you at all, I’m slashing your knife arm/hands. Been practicing that for eighteen years now. I do more knife training now than fight training.

When I first became a cop we had a video that was shown to new recruits as part of academy training. It was called "Edged Weapons.” Ninety percent of it was film of blade encounters, including one of a man, obviously in a mental health crises, slowly carving himself up. It was really nasty.

They stopped showing that film some time ago, too many recruits were getting sick or upset by it. Heaven forbid, we can't have that.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2021)

Buka said:


> I look at it as three possible outcomes.
> 
> You get cut/stabbed and he doesn’t.
> 
> ...


I think that was the point he was trying to make, just accept the fact that you're going to get cut, so you don't freak out when you do. He alos said his teacher wanted them to know that it was a big possibility so he gave them sharpie markers and had them use them like knives to fight. He said he was absolutely amazed at how many sharpie marks he had on himself and the other guy had on him. 

As for not showing the film to new recruits, I fully understand, they certainly will not see anything disturbing when they get out on patrol would they


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## Buka (Sep 27, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I think that was the point he was trying to make......


I see what you did there.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 27, 2021)

Technique can overcome brute force. Brute force can overcome techique. If I can only choose one, I'll take technique. Also remember that chance plays a role also.


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## dvcochran (Sep 27, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Uh, yes.  Also the German's technique was terrible, there is much easier way to do what he did that doesn't require straight muscle strength, however in my class we do call that technique the "Saving Private Ryan."


Love the name you use for the technique.


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## dvcochran (Sep 27, 2021)

Bullsherdog said:


> Saving Private Ryan's infamous knife fight scene has a German soldier win the clinch fight simply because he overpowers the Ranger guy and with terrifying bloodthirsty patience he simply waits for the knife to slowly push through until it enters through the Ranger's chest. And I must add the Ranger actually even brutally bites the German soldier so hard during the clinch blood splatters from his hand but he still ultimately manages to put the knife through with his horrifying endurance and strength.
> 
> However a fact about this scene that everyone forgets is.......... The whole reason the German soldier was able to stab the Ranger in the first place was because it was the Ranger who pulled out the knife and tried to stab the German. During the groundfight the German while atop him was so strong he manages to let go of one of his hands in the clinch and quickly use it to disarm the knife hand of the Ranger (which the Nazi was holding rather easily like a strong man with his left hand). Basically he was like a strongman who can make you tap out simply by squeezing your arm. Not lying watch the scene on Youtube. The Ranger's knife hand was literally stuck frozen and Nazi guy was also overpowering his empty arm so much that he didn't need to retaliate when he let go of his right hand to literally snatch the knife away from the Ranger's other hand like stealing baby from a candy.
> 
> I am curious in real life knife fights can be decided this way with imply having more endurance and strength and by sheer overpowering?


Absolutely.  Especially in the case of average skill fighters, which is the norm I would say. 
Strength, just like speed can and will kill. 

Hard to describe but there is a high amount of mental fortitude required in a fight like the one in the movie. I believe the weaker person mentally will lose more often than the stronger person physically will.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2021)

Buka said:


> I see what you did there.



Wish I did


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## seasoned (Oct 12, 2021)

Technique can overcome brute force. Brute force can overcome technique. And.......a kick to the groin IS a game changer


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## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2021)

seasoned said:


> Technique can overcome brute force. Brute force can overcome technique. And.......a kick to the groin IS a game changer


That made me laugh!! That is a true good one.


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## jmf552 (Oct 14, 2021)

Travis Roesler did an extensive study of knife defenses. He studied all the knife defenses he could find taught in various different arts. BTW, he is eclectic, so he represents no traditional style, although he does have a background in boxing and BJJ and has fought in MMA. Then he took all those knife defense techniques back to his school and drilled them with his senior students, but they resisted the defenses like a real attacker would. Most of the defenses he learned didn't work. Some were just ridiculously bad when pressure tested. But he did find a few that worked and he put out a video series on it. I think it is pretty good.

The basic strategy seems to be:
1. Deflect the knife, no matter what, even if it is only for a second. You may get cut, but don't get stabbed or slashed across an area with a lot of blood vessels near the skin.
2. Immediately go on the attack decisively and take the guy out with your first strike to some critical target. Failing that, your second strike.

Also, knife disarms are basically BS. They will get you killed. BTW, the Saving Private Ryan guy could have rolled that guy off any number of ways if he knew basic grappling.


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## Cynik75 (Oct 14, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Travis Roesler did an extensive study of knife defenses.


What does it exactly mean?
What was his methodology?
What was his laboratory/experiments?

Everybody can say "I have studied knife defence".


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## jmf552 (Oct 14, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> What does it exactly mean?
> What was his methodology?
> What was his laboratory/experiments?
> 
> Everybody can say "I have studied knife defence".


Look it up. I am not going to go into research methodology in forum post. I understand research and I found what he did thorough and credible.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 25, 2021)

Your best bet against a knife is just to treat them as a normal attacker. Because of adrenaline, you won't feel the pain until you wake up in the ER. Just make sure to call paramedics as soon as possible after you subdue the attacker.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 25, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> The basic strategy seems to be:
> 1. Deflect the knife, no matter what, even if it is only for a second. You may get cut, but don't get stabbed or slashed across an area with a lot of blood vessels near the skin.
> 2. Immediately go on the attack decisively and take the guy out with your first strike to some critical target. Failing that, your second strike.
> 
> Also, knife disarms are basically BS


This strategy is commonsense and _extreeemly _basic. Extensive research should not be needed to come to these conclusions. If this is all you know about knife fighting, carry a gun. There are a lot more basic considerations that are a must: Continuous arm control, anticipating counters (if the attacker has some training), defensive posture and foot work to name a few.

The last quoted statement is a bit more useful and best accomplished _after_ the attacker is pretty well subdued or the knife arm is immobilized/injured - if not, it will not turn out well for the defender attempting the disarm.

I have just a little actual training in knife, but have learned one lesson very well: Do not engage unless there is NO other option and you will die without action. And that last thing is no guarantee.


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## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> This strategy is commonsense and _extreeemly _basic. Extensive research should not be needed to come to these conclusions. If this is all you know about knife fighting, carry a gun. There are a lot more basic considerations that are a must: Continuous arm control, anticipating counters (if the attacker has some training), defensive posture and foot work to name a few.
> 
> The last quoted statement is a bit more useful and best accomplished _after_ the attacker is pretty well subdued or the knife arm is immobilized/injured - if not, it will not turn out well for the defender attempting the disarm.
> 
> I have just a little actual training in knife, but have learned one lesson very well: Do not engage unless there is NO other option and you will die without action. And that last thing is no guarantee.


Agree. Knife takeaways are low percentage but but controlling the hand/arm long enough to counter is not; with practice. This is where the self defense argument starts to break down. A person who practices self defense drills just as much as an experienced in MMA or any other martial art should to be good at it.

There is some valuable methodology to having two free hands vs. the person holding the knife only having one. As said, some of this excludes the attacker with experience.

I truly believe most of the crap SD from the past has been debunked with education. SA has integrated so much into  most good SD programs that it is hard to separate them most of the time.

***EDIT*** Right after posting this I saw an advertisement for "winning a fight in 3-5 seconds". So maybe I should withdraw my last comment.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 26, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> There is some valuable methodology to having two free hands vs. the person holding the knife only having one.


I don't think I agree with this, if I'm understanding properly.  I'd rather have a knife or stick in one hand than nothing in two.  I'm guessing you're getting at using your extra free hand available for parrying or grabbing.  But you can parry with the knife as well as your hand and inflict damage at the same time.  No need to grab with your knife hand when you can cut/stab the guy instead.


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## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I don't think I agree with this, if I'm understanding properly.  I'd rather have a knife or stick in one hand than nothing in two.  I'm guessing you're getting at using your extra free hand available for parrying or grabbing.  But you can parry with the knife as well as your hand and inflict damage at the same time.  No need to grab with your knife hand when you can cut/stab the guy instead.


If you have tussled with or apprehended people very many times, particularly from a standing position, the need for free hands for balance and control cannot be understated. This is from a form Kali guy. 
I get what you are saying about being able to do damage with the knife but if you need leverage or end up dropping the knife it has no advantage and can end up becoming a liability. 
Again, the exception would be against a guy with good knife fighting experience. But they are not exactly a high quotient.


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## ytjer6t654uy6hy (Nov 3, 2021)

I don't think I agree with this, if I'm understanding properly. I'd rather have a knife or stick in one hand than nothing in two. I'm guessing you're getting at using your extra free hand available for parrying or grabbing. But you can parry with the knife as well as your hand and inflict damage at the same time. No need to grab with your knife hand when you can cut/stab the guy instead.


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## Buka (Nov 3, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I truly believe most of the crap SD from the past has been debunked with education. SA has integrated so much into  most good SD programs that it is hard to separate them most of the time.


I agree, bruh. When I think back to some of the total crap I taught, as it was taught to me, I used to hang my head in shame. Thank God nobody got killed trying to defend themselves with what we used to teach them. ESPECIALLY as it relates to knife arts. Oh, dear God.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 8, 2021)

Buka said:


> I look at it as three possible outcomes.
> 
> You get cut/stabbed and he doesn’t.
> 
> ...


Then the surgery manager calls me at 230 a.m. To come to work… ah the smell of blood in the morning, er middle of the night.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 8, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> The basic strategy seems to be:
> 1. Deflect the knife, no matter what, even if it is only for a second. You may get cut, but don't get stabbed or slashed across an area with a lot of blood vessels near the skin.
> 2. Immediately go on the attack decisively and take the guy out with your first strike to some critical target. Failing that, your second strike.


On an earlier reply to your post it may have seemed to have been a put down, but it was not meant for you or what you posted.  It was more of a comment regarding the need for "extensive study" by the guy you referred to to come up with these strategies.  Just want to make that clear.

I fully agree with these two points being among the very most important strategies. I would add a #3, that after the deflection, maintain contact/control of the knife arm so you won't have to deflect it again.  Everything is risky in a knife fight.  The more a knife is flashing around the more chance you have of getting cut, so finishing the guy ASAP is critical.  IMO 95% of knife defense practice should center on these 3 considerations and how to implement them.


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