# Pin Sun Wing Chun & Wing Chun Boxing



## KPM (Oct 8, 2017)

Hey Guys!

The Wing Chun Boxing thread was getting rather long and cumbersome.  So I thought I would start a new thread.  I have put up a couple of lessons that show...first....how Pin Sun Wing Chun is organized in a "modular" fashion and is not just a "collection of drills" as some have tried to say.  Secondly, they show how I have been incorporating the movements and concepts from Pin Sun Wing Chun into my Wing Chun Boxing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 8, 2017)

You just show a good example that "straight punch" is not always faster than "circular punch". Sometime when you use

- "straight punch", your opponent's arm is in your striking path.
- "circular punch", you can get around your opponent's arm.

At 4.30, Your opponent uses his right hand to parry down your left arm.

1. You borrow his force, rotate your arm with him.
2. You then tap on his right arm, and
3. straight punch back at him.

Your step 2 is a very important skill used in wrestling "grip fight" that your opponent tries to grab your wrist, you rotate your arm, and grab his wrist instead.

But for the striking art, step 2 may give your opponent extra time to react (when you make 1 move, your opponent will also respond with 1 move). If you can move from 1 to 3, spin your arm and clockwise hay-maker (or hook punch) at your opponent's head, you may knock your opponent down right there. Without step 2, the straight punch may not be possible.

IMO, step 2 is a bit too conservative. If you are worrying about his free right arm at step 2, your clockwise hay-maker (or hook punch) can take care that already.

You may just demonstrate a WC technique in your clip. Here is a good comparison that

- your WC technique "circular arm, tap, straight punch" requires 3 steps.
- a non-WC technique "circular arm, hay-maker" only requires 2 steps.

If the result is the same that you knock your opponent down anyway, 2 steps process is faster than 3 steps process.


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## KPM (Oct 8, 2017)

^^^^ I agree completely John!  But that's a subject  for another lesson!    But I'm primarily showing how that San Sik translates to a boxing application directly as it is taught in the classical Pin Sun Wing Chun.  The "step 2" is extra insurance to make sure you aren't going to get clocked by his own "touch and go" punch!  Sure, it can be skipped and can go directly to the punch!  That's the nice thing about the San Sik.  You can dissect them in multiple ways to see different applications.


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## Martial D (Oct 8, 2017)

KPM said:


> Hey Guys!
> 
> The Wing Chun Boxing thread was getting rather long and cumbersome.  So I thought I would start a new thread.  I have put up a couple of lessons that show...first....how Pin Sun Wing Chun is organized in a "modular" fashion and is not just a "collection of drills" as some have tried to say.  Secondly, they show how I have been incorporating the movements and concepts from Pin Sun Wing Chun into my Wing Chun Boxing.


I love what you are doing man, I really do. I'd like to see how it fares against a resisting opponent though. 

The thing about these human mannequin demonstrations is that you can do literally anything, there's no indication of realism.


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## KPM (Oct 9, 2017)

Thanks man!  But keep in mind these are instructional videos.  You can't demonstrate something well so someone can learn it well when doing it against someone that is trying to STOP you from doing it!    Sparring videos will come later.


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## Parky (Oct 9, 2017)

KPM said:


> Thanks man!  But keep in mind these are instructional videos.  You can't demonstrate something well so someone can learn it well when doing it against someone that is trying to STOP you from doing it!    Sparring videos will come later.



A big thumbs up for having the confidence to put yourself out there on video and explain what you are doing.

But since you put yourself out there I have to say something. I'm not sure that the black socks work with blue tennis shoes. EVERY TIME I wear something like that my daughter refuses to be around me, or claim to know me. Seeing your video I'm thinking she may be right...ha...ha. Cheers!


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## Martial D (Oct 9, 2017)

KPM said:


> Thanks man!  But keep in mind these are instructional videos.  You can't demonstrate something well so someone can learn it well when doing it against someone that is trying to STOP you from doing it!    Sparring videos will come later.


True. What you could do is a hybrid sort of drill/demonstration. What I mean by this is let him throw...say..the hook, but instead of doing the old super slow motion/leave the arm out there as you do this that and the other thing, get him to throw a real hook, at real speed, and demonstrate the counter to it in real time.

Again, not hating, or criticizing, I just think that (for people like me at least) it would make for more hard hitting(pun intended) material


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2017)

For instruction video, it may be better to look at a technique from 2 opposite angles.

1. You have

- Your opponent parries your arm, you respond to it.

2. May be you should also include

- You parry your opponent's arm, he responds, you then respond to his respond.

IMO, 2 > 1.

Your don't have to wait for your opponent to attack you. You can always attack first.


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## DanT (Oct 10, 2017)

Looks similar to the Wing Chun I do. Great stuff.


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## TMA17 (Oct 11, 2017)

Excellent!


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## Jim Roselando (Oct 11, 2017)

This is mainly Cheung's TWC body & movement fused with some quickly learned Pin Sun.  Some things never change.


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## DanT (Oct 11, 2017)

Jim Roselando said:


> This is mainly Cheung's TWC body & movement fused with some quickly learned Pin Sun.  Some things never change.


I also recognize the TWC movement. Pin Sun, being one of the few Wing Chun lineages I haven't studied, is difficult for me to see. Nonetheless I still like many of the applications KPM is demonstrating. Also if you are a new member, it's wise (but not required) to create a thread introducing yourself.


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## Jsunlx (Oct 11, 2017)

DanT said:


> Also if you are a new member, it's wise (but not required) to create a thread introducing yourself.



Check his previous postings. He already has introduced himself.


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2017)

Jim Roselando said:


> This is mainly Cheung's TWC body & movement fused with some quickly learned Pin Sun.  Some things never change.



You know as well as I that it wasn't "quickly learned."  And just where do you see TWC movement in the Pin Sun sets I am showing, other than the opening of the stance?  I don't like the "swivel", so what?


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2017)

DanT said:


> I also recognize the TWC movement. Pin Sun, being one of the few Wing Chun lineages I haven't studied, is difficult for me to see. Nonetheless I still like many of the applications KPM is demonstrating. Also if you are a new member, it's wise (but not required) to create a thread introducing yourself.



You are probably picking up on the side step and angling in the Wing Chun Boxing.  Yes, that is definitely something valuable that I learned from TWC!   The Pin Sun is not difficult to see at all!  The short sets I show are Pin Sun, the organization from short solo set to 2 man set to dummy set is how Pin Sun is organized.   Leung Jan himself is supposed to have said that Pin Sun Wing Chun is the same as other Wing Chun, just taught in a different format.


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## DaveB (Oct 12, 2017)

Perhaps I would need to see your other videos (I've only seen the first on this thread and one or two older) but I'm not sure what makes this wing chun boxing as opposed to just practical application of wing chun?

Everyone should know that forms are dead templates that carry the ideas behind the style. Mobility and fluidity and an awareness of potential responses to your movements are vital components in translating template movements to reality and that seems to be what your doing.

It's good stuff, but not sure what boxing adds?


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## DanT (Oct 12, 2017)

KPM said:


> You are probably picking up on the side step and angling in the Wing Chun Boxing.  Yes, that is definitely something valuable that I learned from TWC!   The Pin Sun is not difficult to see at all!  The short sets I show are Pin Sun, the organization from short solo set to 2 man set to dummy set is how Pin Sun is organized.   Leung Jan himself is supposed to have said that Pin Sun Wing Chun is the same as other Wing Chun, just taught in a different format.


What I mean is, I can recognize the TWC, but I'm not familiar enough with Pin Sun to recognize its flavour.


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## DanT (Oct 12, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Perhaps I would need to see your other videos (I've only seen the first on this thread and one or two older) but I'm not sure what makes this wing chun boxing as opposed to just practical application of wing chun?
> 
> Everyone should know that forms are dead templates that carry the ideas behind the style. Mobility and fluidity and an awareness of potential responses to your movements are vital components in translating template movements to reality and that seems to be what your doing.
> 
> It's good stuff, but not sure what boxing adds?


To a certain extent Dave I agree, as the Wing Chun I was taught, when expressed in a fluid and free manner, is very similar to this. Nonetheless, I really enjoy the videos, and think the applications are good.


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## DanT (Oct 12, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> Check his previous postings. He already has introduced himself.





Jsunlx said:


> Check his previous postings. He already has introduced himself.


Must have missed it. My bad.


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## Jim Roselando (Oct 12, 2017)

KPM wrote:


You know as well as I that it wasn't "quickly learned." And just where do you see TWC movement in the Pin Sun sets I am showing, other than the opening of the stance? I don't like the "swivel", so what? KPM


You asked what was changed?   Just watch the first clip and set, Jut Choi.   It's basically a TWC version and not Pin Sun.....  I didn't need to watch more than a few minutes to see that.....

Keith, just be honest.  You visited me on 2.5 occassions over a few years and then maybe a decade later you visited Marc a couple of times.  Yes, a couple of weekends of training is learning something quickly.  

Think about this, if the average person attended two or three classes per week, you essentially had two weeks of actual training over a decade.  That's the totality of your Pin Sun experience even tho you seem to enjoy this facade you created about being an 'instructor under Mui'.   Mui Sifu never once touched your hands to coach or train you......

In Mui's Martial Art Association you are ranked 'Jr Instructor' under Mark K.   You were given permission to start a study group but actually have no permission to teach.   Ten years ago you were doing the same nonsense.   As I said, something's don't change.....


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2017)

*You asked what was changed?   Just watch the first clip and set, Jut Choi.   It's basically a TWC version and not Pin Sun.....  I didn't need to watch more than a few minutes to see that.....*

---TWC doesn't have a Jut Choi set or that sequence of movements in any of its forms.  So how can it be a "TWC version"?  

*Keith, just be honest.  You visited me on 2.5 occassions over a few years and then maybe a decade later you visited Marc a couple of times.  Yes, a couple of weekends of training is learning something quickly.* 

---Sure.  I'll be honest about that! But....how can you have a "0.5 occasion"?  And when I visited Marc,  Sifu Henry Mui himself stopped in at several points, talked to Marc about my progress, watched what I was doing, and gave his personal stamp of approval.  Henry Mui signed my certificate, not Marc.  And you are completely discounting the time and effort spent on training outside of those intense instructional sessions.  Or the feedback given repeatedly over time to videos exchanged demonstrating progress.   How else does having a "distant student" work?  So you are willing to discount the teaching provided to every "distant student" of any teacher?


*Think about this, if the average person attended two or three classes per week, you essentially had two weeks of actual training over a decade.  That's the totality of your Pin Sun experience even tho you seem to enjoy this facade you created about being an 'instructor under Mui'.* 

---Think about this, most people solidify what they know when they practice on their own.  First hand instruction puts them on the path, but they have to put in the "flight time" of practice to make it their own.  You seem to be so willing to discount over a decade of personal practice and development.  My learning didn't stop just because I was not in your presence.  


*In Mui's Martial Art Association you are ranked 'Jr Instructor' under Mark K.   You were given permission to start a study group but actually have no permission to teach.   Ten years ago you were doing the same nonsense.* 

---You are wrong.  Nothing was said about being "only" a study group leader.  No one required that I was going to be monitored or need to return for more training or any of that.  Marc essentially welcomed me as a member of the family and told me I could come back any time if I desired.  There were no requirements placed upon me.  And I have never claimed to represent anyone but myself.  But I will damn sure continue to include Henry Mui in my Pin Sun lineage chart when anyone asks.

---But if you want to air dirty laundry, let's talk about what happened ten years ago.  I was your distant student...who you accepted as such....who you gave feedback and approval to based upon personal interaction and me sending video of myself and my training partner and our progress.  You made me stick with just 4 San Sik for an entire year before you would show me anything else, despite the fact that I already had many years experience doing Ip Man Wing Chun.  Then you showed me the next 6 San Sik that I would have to spend at least another year developing before you would show me more.  That is not exactly "quickly learned."  I liked to post in the forums then, just as I do now.  But you didn't like me mentioning things about Pin Sun because you were very secretive about it and didn't want people to know any details.  So you eventually told me you didn't want me to post in the forums at all.   It was about that time that you started learning the I Chuan Chi Gung stuff.  You demanded that all of your students also start learning that and to practice it daily.  I was in medical school at the time and barely had time to practice my Pin Sun San Sik, let alone standing in Chi Gung for 20 to 30 minutes every day.  I just did not see it as something I wanted to get into at the time.  But you demanded that your students do this if they wanted to continue  with the Wing Chun.  Between me refusing to do the I Chuan and you not liking me revealing Pin Sun "secrets" on the forums we reached a mutual agreement to split.  I attempted to keep it on friendly terms, but then for awhile every time I posted in the KFO forum you seemed to pop up and try to discount what I was saying in some way, even when it had nothing to do with Pin Sun.   And anyone that has been around here in recent years knows I have defended by you and Pin Sun against negative comments and posts.  Yet you still seem to think of me as an enemy because I split from you as my instructor after you became so controlling.  And now, rather than saying I have taken my Pin Sun training in an interesting direction and wish me luck, you post to drag me down and make negative comments.  Yeah, you are right.  Some things never change!


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## Jim Roselando (Oct 12, 2017)

My replies are blow:

*You asked what was changed? Just watch the first clip and set, Jut Choi. It's basically a TWC version and not Pin Sun..... I didn't need to watch more than a few minutes to see that.....*

---TWC doesn't have a Jut Choi set or that sequence of movements in any of its forms.  So how can it be a "TWC version"? 


I said your Jut Choi was a TWC version of it and not the Pin Sun way..  I probably should have said; Your TWC version of it.....  Either way, the statement was accurate.  JR

****

*Keith, just be honest.  You visited me on 2.5 occassions over a few years and then maybe a decade later you visited Marc a couple of times.  Yes, a couple of weekends of training is learning something quickly.* 

---Sure.  I'll be honest about that! But....how can you have a "0.5 occasion"?  And when I visited Marc,  Sifu Henry Mui himself stopped in at several points, talked to Marc about my progress, watched what I was doing, and gave his personal stamp of approval.  Henry Mui signed my certificate, not Marc.  And you are completely discounting the time and effort spent on training outside of those intense instructional sessions.  Or the feedback given repeatedly over time to videos exchanged demonstrating progress.   How else does having a "distant student" work?  So you are willing to discount the teaching provided to every "distant student" of any teacher?

First year you visited on one occasion for a couple of classes.  Second year you visited once for a couple of classes, and then came back for one brief session with one of your pupils (that's the .5).  So, the first year you had 1 training session and second year 1.5.  You learned about 6 moves total.  A distant student eventually becomes qualified due to the time and effort they make to achieve skill in our art.  That is something that takes regular interaction, progressive training and not achieved from someone showing you the moves once or twice and wallah....  Pooof.....    That's all that's needed?  BTW: In Mui's organization, he is the only one who signs the certificates.   Nobody else.  So please don't try to use that as leverage.  AND, when I asked him about you, I had to show him a photo so he would remember who you were, and he replied; He came to Boston a couple of times to train with Mark.  I gave him Jr Instructor but I never saw him again after that......   JR

***


*Think about this, if the average person attended two or three classes per week, you essentially had two weeks of actual training over a decade.  That's the totality of your Pin Sun experience even tho you seem to enjoy this facade you created about being an 'instructor under Mui'.* 

---Think about this, most people solidify what they know when they practice on their own.  First hand instruction puts them on the path, but they have to put in the "flight time" of practice to make it their own.  You seem to be so willing to discount over a decade of personal practice and development.  My learning didn't stop just because I was not in your presence. 

You still seem to think you can acquire and art by seeing it once or twice....   Good luck.  JR
***


*In Mui's Martial Art Association you are ranked 'Jr Instructor' under Mark K.   You were given permission to start a study group but actually have no permission to teach.   Ten years ago you were doing the same nonsense.* 

---You are wrong.  Nothing was said about being "only" a study group leader.  No one required that I was going to be monitored or need to return for more training or any of that.  Marc essentially welcomed me as a member of the family and told me I could come back any time if I desired.  There were no requirements placed upon me.  And I have never claimed to represent anyone but myself.  But I will damn sure continue to include Henry Mui in my Pin Sun lineage chart when anyone asks.

You may want to contact Mui Sifu, I'm sure you can since you are an 'Instructor under Henry Mui', and ask him about the protocol of his organization.   Jr Instructors do not have permission to teach.   Sorry.  Not my rules.  Its his organization.   JR 

***

---But if you want to air dirty laundry, let's talk about what happened ten years ago.  I was your distant student...who you accepted as such....who you gave feedback and approval to based upon personal interaction and me sending video of myself and my training partner and our progress.  You made me stick with just 4 San Sik for an entire year before you would show me anything else, despite the fact that I already had many years experience doing Ip Man Wing Chun.  Then you showed me the next 6 San Sik that I would have to spend at least another year developing before you would show me more.  That is not exactly "quickly learned."  I liked to post in the forums then, just as I do now.  But you didn't like me mentioning things about Pin Sun because you were very secretive about it and didn't want people to know any details.  So you eventually told me you didn't want me to post in the forums at all.   It was about that time that you started learning the I Chuan Chi Gung stuff.  You demanded that all of your students also start learning that and to practice it daily.  I was in medical school at the time and barely had time to practice my Pin Sun San Sik, let alone standing in Chi Gung for 20 to 30 minutes every day.  I just did not see it as something I wanted to get into at the time.  But you demanded that your students do this if they wanted to continue  with the Wing Chun.  Between me refusing to do the I Chuan and you not liking me revealing Pin Sun "secrets" on the forums we reached a mutual agreement to split.  I attempted to keep it on friendly terms, but then for awhile every time I posted in the KFO forum you seemed to pop up and try to discount what I was saying in some way, even when it had nothing to do with Pin Sun.   And anyone that has been around here in recent years knows I have defended by you and Pin Sun against negative comments and posts.  Yet you still seem to think of me as an enemy because I split from you as my instructor after you became so controlling.  And now, rather than saying I have taken my Pin Sun training in an interesting direction and wish me luck, you post to drag me down and make negative comments.  Yeah, you are right.  Some things never change!  [/QUOTE]

You are correct.  In my club, I do not allow beginners to teach and we prefer people avoid forums.  Yes.  We do have satellite groups that visit and train regularly.  Thats different from seeing something once or twice, then vanishing and thinking they got it or just need to practice......   Many, including you, mainly care about collecting a few moves (or something rare) and going around trying to become the next Mr. Youtube....  For us, its a way of maintaining quality control. 

You are also correct regarding my standing post (ZZ) practice.  I recommend all my people training it.  One of the main reasons being......... Pin Sun has no classical SLT, so by cross training in ZZ we isolate the core of SLT which is posture, relax & breath.   Claiming time was an issue is kind of funny especially since you always had plenty of time to create all kinds of stuff...   Those old VHS tapes were filled with stuff you were creating.   

Do I regard you as an enemy?  Nope....   BUT, don't expect me to not be honest about your demo which both of my comments were accurate.  A) TWC Influence & B) You Learned Quickly.   JR


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2017)

*I said your Jut Choi was a TWC version of it and not the Pin Sun way..  I probably should have said; Your TWC version of it.....  Either way, the statement was accurate.  JR*

---Call it whatever you want.  You don't do it the same way Marc does it either.


*First year you visited on one occasion for a couple of classes.* 

---You make it sound like I was there for a couple of hours.  In truth, you spent the whole day with me and made sure everything you wanted me to know was captured on video in detail so I could review it over and over later (which I did).  That is far different than just attending "a couple of classes."   Again, that is how being a distant student works.  Why are you trying to devalue it now??


*You learned about 6 moves total.* 

---You taught me both the level 1 and level 2 material.  More than 6 moves!  And again....over a 2 year period during which I practiced regularly and sent you video for feedback.  Isn't that how a "distant student program" works?  That still isn't "quickly learned."   "Quickly learned" would have been watching you perform the system over one session and then claiming I knew it all.  Which I never did.



*A distant student eventually becomes qualified due to the time and effort they make to achieve skill in our art.  That is something that takes regular interaction, progressive training*

---Which I did.  Again, I was a med student at the time.  I didn't exactly have the time or money for frequent trips to Boston.  And you were Ok with that then.  But now, for some reason, you want to devalue it all.  You really are coming across as very petty.


* In Mui's organization, he is the only one who signs the certificates.   Nobody else.  So please don't try to use that as leverage.* 

---What leverage?  All I have said is that I learned Pin Sun under Henry Mui.  Like I said above, he is part of my lineage chart and I will continue to acknowledge that.  I acknowledge that I trained primarily with Marc, but Henry Mui was supervising.  Marc has never said I couldn't teach other people.  In fact, I made a DVD lesson progression for some of my students and sent a copy to Marc out of courtesy.  He was impressed and complemented me on it.  Unlike you, he encouraged me to do whatever I want with my Pin Sun knowledge.  He put no limitations or expectations on me at all.  Did he do that with Henry Mui's knowledge or blessing?  I don't know.  But Marc acknowledged that I had a solid marital arts background, that I moved very well, and had no problems with the way I have been doing Pin Sun or teaching it to others.  


*
You still seem to think you can acquire and art by seeing it once or twice....* 

---I didn't just "see it once or twice."  I had a firm background in Ip Man WCK already.   I had the videos of you teaching and demo'ing which I watched multiple times after training with you.  I had a training partner to practice all the 2 man drills with.  I got feedback from you on video that I sent to you showing our progress.   Why are you now trying to devalue and speak badly about your own "distant student" program?   And how was it any different from someone with a good Wing Chun background attending one of Phillip Bayer's seminars to learn his approach to WSLVT and then going home to practice what they learned? 




*You may want to contact Mui Sifu, I'm sure you can since you are an 'Instructor under Henry Mui', and ask him about the protocol of his organization.   Jr Instructors do not have permission to teach.   Sorry.  Not my rules.  Its his organization.   JR*


---And I don't claim to represent his organization.  I represent only myself.   If you have a problem with what I am doing, you may want to contact Marc.  Because he never said what you are saying. 



*Many, including you, mainly care about collecting a few moves (or something rare) and going around trying to become the next Mr. Youtube....  For us, its a way of maintaining quality control.*

---What are you even talking about?  I only put up my youtube lessons a few months ago.  You're talking about events that happened over 10 years ago.  _Oh wait....you are peeved because I showed actual Pin Sun Wing Chun sets on youtube for all to see!!!   I violated the "secret code"!   I'm starting to get it now!!  _


*Claiming time was an issue is kind of funny especially since you always had plenty of time to create all kinds of stuff...   Those old VHS tapes were filled with stuff you were creating.  *

---Again, what are you even talking about?  What VHS tapes?  What was I creating?   And you doubt that someone in medical school and residency training would be short on time?   


* BUT, don't expect me to not be honest about your demo which both of my comments were accurate.  A) TWC Influence & B) You Learned Quickly.   JR*

---Ok.  Then be really honest and admit that you are actually  ticked off because I dared to show some Pin Sun Wing Chun to the general public.


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## Jim Roselando (Oct 12, 2017)

This discussion is rolling off topic.  Taking a trip down memory lane has been fun but let's stay focused.  I originally stated your demo showed, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned Pin Sun.  It is still a true statement even if that is a bitter pill to swallow.   

Just watch the first few minutes of your TWC Jut Choi and those variations you created......   First two minutes is all it takes, and you are trying to distract by saying others do it differently, show me one person from Mui Sifu who does it your way and I'll agree.  

Your new Jut Choi creation neglects the core purpose of Jut Choi training which is the conditioning and Jarn Dai Lik.  

Now, lets use your logic for one minute.  You spent two days training year one, and two days year two, plus one more extra session for a few hours.  At this point, your training stop at Lan Kiu (#6 out of 12)  Ten years later you spend two more weekends with someone.  This is the totality of your exposure and experience in a system that is largely transmitted via hands on? 

Imagine going to a baseball camp four times in 10 years and trying to learn baseball without a coach or interacting with other team members.  Not possible and pretty arrogant!  I know I know, you played baseball before so its no big deal to train yourself?  Two weekends every decade adds up to very little no matter how you slice it....

As for you revealing secrets?  ROFLOL....  You just don't get it.   Most who think a weekend seminar or two, combined with some video or online courses is enough to qualify to represent an art but I just can't agree which is fine.   We can agree to disagree.  

I'm happy you have passion for throwing around the name Pin Sun, but its too bad you never had the passion to actually study it.  Mui Sifu stated, Keith is only a Jr Instructor under Marc K.  If he wants to teach, he needs to come back for more training.  His words, not mine!

Take care


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## KPM (Oct 12, 2017)

*  I originally stated your demo showed, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned Pin Sun.  It is still a true statement even if that is a bitter pill to swallow.* 

---Its not a "bitter pill."  It is an inaccurate statement.  Since you completely dismissed what I said before, let me summarize and clarify it again for  anyone following along.  

---I checked my notes.  I first visited Jim for training in July 2003.  I went after specifically being invited to participate in his "distant student program."   Many years later Jim wrote in one of his articles that he started studying with Henry Mui in April 2001.  So was he actually a "fully authorized instructor" under Sifu Mui when he took me as a student?  I now wonder!   Jim taught me level 1 of the system.  This consisted of the 2 short San Sik I showed in those videos in the OP in addition to 2 other short San Sik.  And I was not a beginner.  I had at least 5 years of training in Ip Man Wing Chun at that point.  But those 4 short San Sik are all I practiced for 1 year, on a near daily basis.  During that first intensive training session lasting many hours I taped Jim explaining those first 4 sets in detail, as well as the 2 man application for each, how each is performed on the dummy and how each is done in Chi Sau.  I referred to that tape often.  I recruited a training partner (which was one of Jim's requirements to have a practice partner) and I sent Jim a video of our training progress every 3 months or so for feedback.  I returned to Boston for more training during my next summer break from school in 2004. Jim was satisfied with my progress on the level 1 material, so we spent many more hours going over the level 2 material and taped it all in the same fashion.  As before I went home, and started practicing!  I referred to those videos often!  I sent videos of myself for feedback.  And I kept training the San Sik on a near daily basis for another year.  I was following along Jim's "distance student" program just as he designed doing what he required.  On my third trip up to Boston I took my training partner with me (which was another one of Jim's requirements).  But Jim would not show me any of the level 3 material because Scott was not at that point of learning yet.  So we kept practicing until my eventual "fallout" with Jim.  Does that sound like "quickly learned" to any of you?  If Jim thinks so, then one would have to question his judgment!

*Just watch the first few minutes of your TWC Jut Choi and those variations you created......   First two minutes is all it takes, and you are trying to distract by saying others do it differently, show me one person from Mui Sifu who does it your way and I'll agree.  *

----I've seen footage of Tracy Banks showing what he learned from Henry Mui, and it was quite different from what he showed you and Marc!  As I said, Marc doesn't do things exactly like you.  I've also seen plenty footage of both Fung Keung and Fung Leung, and they don't do the sets exactly like you or move like you do either.  So to say I am wrong because I don't do things exactly like you is a load of bull!

*Your new Jut Choi creation neglects the core purpose of Jut Choi training which is the conditioning and Jarn Dai Lik.* 

---But that's only one level.  You should know that!  And besides, my "new creation" was for Wing Chun Boxing, not Pin Sun!

*Now, lets use your logic for one minute.  You spent two days training year one, and two days year two, plus one more extra session for a few hours.  At this point, your training stop at Lan Kiu (#6 out of 12)  Ten years later you spend two more weekends with someone.  This is the totality of your exposure and experience in a system that is largely transmitted via hands on? *

---No it was actually 10 sets.  I have it on video!  And again....just because I was not in your presence for all of the many hours of training I put in doesn't mean I wasn't learning!  You aren't that special!   You yourself have paraphrased Leung Jan as saying that Pin Sun wasn't different from other Wing Chun, just taught from a different curriculum.  And I had 5 years of training in Wing Chun already.  You give me no credit for prior experience, hard work on my own, and some physical talent.  You seem to think you "hold the keys to the kingdom."  Again, you aren't that special! 


*Imagine going to a baseball camp four times in 10 years and trying to learn baseball without a coach or interacting with other team members.  Not possible and pretty arrogant!  I know I know, you played baseball before so its no big deal to train yourself?  Two weekends every decade adds up to very little no matter how you slice it...*.

---That's funny, since you gave me your "seal of approval" at the time!  I met all the requirements you established for your own "distant student" program up until the point you started to demand that everyone spend at least 20 minutes a day doing the "standing post."  But you know what?  Something else has dawned on me! _ You are doing the "Leung Ting thing"!   How many students has Leung Ting booted out of his organization when they ticked them off?  And his strategy seems to be "disown, deny, and dissemble"!  That's exactly what you are doing!  Now I have an idea of what Alex Richter felt like!    Its a shame that so many Wing Chun people are so petty and small-minded!_


*I'm happy you have passion for throwing around the name Pin Sun, but its too bad you never had the passion to actually study it.* 

----I have posted on Pin Sun many times here over recent years.  You are welcome to do a search for my posts and see if I have presented any wrong or inaccurate information.  Its easy enough to do.  Usually when I post about Pin Sun another Wing Chun guy that tends to be rather petty and small-minded posts to say that Pin Sun is "just a collection of drills" and not a true Wing Chun system.  I have explained his error on several occasions, but he keeps saying it.  And he developed that impression of Pin Sun after spending some time with you!  I have also spoken highly of you and defended you on more than one occasion because despite our split I still maintained some respect for you as my first instructor in Pin Sun.  But after this exchange that respect is gone.  You have truly demonstrated how petty and controlling you are.  I never shared those original videos we made out of respect for you.  But I still have them and now I'm wondering how easy it would be to convert them to a youtube format......

----Also, a few months back and new guy showed up here and started asking me questions in a pretty rude way.  When I ignored him he got more demanding and more rude.  He said he was a student of yours.  After several people pointed out what a horse's behind he was being he disappeared.  We all thought he was Guy B. coming back under another faked identity to cause trouble.  But now it seems likely that he actually WAS your student!  Just what are you teaching nowadays?  

---Just admit it.  The only reason you have popped up to try and discredit me is because I showed Pin Sun sets on youtube.  Well, guess what?  More are to come!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 12, 2017)

KPM said:


> I have been incorporating the movements and concepts from Pin Sun Wing Chun into my Wing Chun Boxing.


In the past, I used to give credit to the WC system "Tan Da" for my "rhino guard" strategy. After I have found out that some WC guys don't like that, I started to tell people that I created "rhino guard" all by myself. The problem is if you "evolve" something from an exist MA system. People from that MA system may not be happy about it. Some people believe that their MA style is so perfect that any "evolution" can mean dis-respect.


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## KPM (Oct 13, 2017)

You know guys, I had another realization last night.   Jim wasn't very specific, but as I look back on it now.....his comment about how what I show is "TWC influenced", his reference to what I "created", and his comment about "just watching the first few minutes"....all now leads me to believe he was NOT referring to the classical Pin Sun set I was showing from 0:35 to 1:30 in that first clip.  He was likely referring to the Wing Chun Boxing set I was showing at 2:55 to 3:20 of that clip!  If that is true, then he didn't even bother to pay attention to what I was saying on the clip!  He likely didn't even watch the whole clip or even bother to look at the second clip!

So let me be perfectly clear here.  I didn't have to include the Pin Sun portion on these latest 2 lessons.  I only did so to show where I am getting inspiration for my "Wing Chun Boxing."  I most definitely am NOT teaching the set from 2:55 to 3:20 on that first video clip and referring to it as "Pin Sun Wing Chun."  It is "Wing Chun Boxing"!  But I included the Pin Sun portion to make a point.   To those people that have watched my videos and said...."that's just boxing!".... Ok, maybe some boxers do something similar, which is great!....but I wanted to show exactly where we were deriving the concepts or techniques from Wing Chun.  To those that have watched my videos and said..."that's just Wing Chun!  What does boxing add? I was taught that in my Wing Chun!", which is also great!...maybe some Wing Chun people in more recent years are more progressive and starting to add more and more of a boxing element....... but now you have seen Jim state that no one in Pin Sun Wing Chun does it that way....so it isn't "just Wing Chun."

Let me make one more thing perfectly clear.   Jim popped up here to discredit me because I showed some of the classical Pin Sun Wing Chun sets on youtube for all to see. He is using the "tried and true" Leung Ting strategy of disowning me from the lineage, denying that I truly learned any Pin Sun because I was "just a seminar student" and discrediting anything I show.  This is so he can distance himself from what I show, and tell people..."No, that's not really Pin Sun!  That guy didn't really learn Pin Sun Wing Chun!"  Yes, petty and small-minded!  Too bad that is far too common in Wing Chun!


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## Nobody Important (Oct 13, 2017)

"A cripple, likewise, an accomplice and noisy, have I not shouted among the stones? Consequently, I strive to forget, I walk in our cities of iron and fire, I smile bravely at the night, I hail the storms, I shall be faithful. I have forgotten, in truth: active and deaf, henceforth. But perhaps someday, when we are ready to die of exhaustion and ignorance, I shall be able to disown our garish tombs and go and stretch out in the valley, under the same light, and learn for the last time what I know."

_Author: Albert Camus_


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2017)

KPM said:


> I am getting inspiration for my "Wing Chun Boxing."


When SC (Shuai Chiao) was evolved into Combat SC, we don't mention about where the strike and kick came from. It saves a lot of trouble that way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2017)

When I integrated Taiji into SC, some Taiji guys said that I should not use Taiji that way. I tried not to let those kind of comments bothered me. It's my Taiji. I can do with it anyway that I want to. Fortunately, my Taiji and my SC came from the same teacher.


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2017)

KPM said:


> You know guys, I had another realization last night.   Jim wasn't very specific, but as I look back on it now.....his comment about how what I show is "TWC influenced", his reference to what I "created", and his comment about "just watching the first few minutes"....all now leads me to believe he was NOT referring to the classical Pin Sun...  He was likely referring to the Wing Chun Boxing set I was showing at 2:55 to 3:20 of that clip!



Yeah, I got the same impression. You would have saved a lot of time typing futile responses if you had just fired back that you were not teaching Pin Sun, TWC, or any other orthodox WC, but rather a synthesis called "WC Boxing" ...and that he should be grateful for you even bothering to credit Pin Sun for contributing a few ideas!

That would kinda pull the rug under that whole wasted spiel about you not being fully authorized to teach in their Pin Sun organization.

...For what it's worth, neither of the WC associations I have belonged to approve of members engaging with others on forums like this. They all seem to have a problem with free thinking and inventive individuals, other than their own head instructors. Probably why I have not been promoted since about 1986!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2017)

geezer said:


> not being fully authorized to teach in their Pin Sun organization.


The idea that you will need permission to teach a certain MA system is ridicules. You don't need any permission to teach any MA system. If you have learned something. It's yours.

One of my long fist brothers wanted to learn a "Little Baji form" from his Baji friend. His Baiji friend didn't want to teach him. My long fist brother went to watch a Baji class and stole that little Baji form within 30 minutes. A week later he started to teach old folks in the park that "little Baji form" for health.

My long fist brother did that on purpose just to "upset" the entire Baji system. There was nothing that the Baji system could do about it.


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2017)

Amen John!  I agree completely!    To some extent a person will maintain loyalty to the organization or teacher and not share anything they know until "officially authorized."  But if a teacher is acting like a real @$$, doesn't deserve that loyalty or respect and has severed the teacher/student relationship, then agreements are null and void!   It is utterly ridiculous to assume that your teaching or your system is so special that someone needs personal intimate contact with you over an extended period of time to learn anything.  No one is that special!


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2017)

Yeah, I think a lot of the "you're not allowed to teach" comes from a different relationship than is common now. It was more paternalistic (with both the good and bad that entails), and the teacher was making sure the student was ready to teach (handle students and teach well) and to handle things like challenges, while representing the art well (somewhat a matter of honor originally - not so much so in Western culture, not sure if it still is in Asian cultures).


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## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The idea that you will need permission to teach a certain MA system is ridicules. You don't need any permission to teach any MA system. If you have learned something. It's yours.
> 
> One of my long fist brothers wanted to learn a "Little Baji form" from his Baji friend. His Baiji friend didn't want to teach him. My long fist brother went to watch a Baji class and stole that little Baji form within 30 minutes. A week later he started to teach old folks in the park that "little Baji form" for health.
> 
> My long fist brother did that on purpose just to "upset" the entire Baji system. There was nothing that the Baji system could do about it.


This is true.  Nobody can stop someone from doing something, even if it is unethical and even if the person is incompetent, so long as it is not illegal.

I guess one example of an exception is the scuba industry.  It self-regulates and no legitimate dive shop would provide tanks or air fills to someone who cannot show proof of certification from a recognized training organization.

There is no law backing this up, but it is industry standard.

Of course a dive shop could disregard this practice if they wanted to but they would be taking a huge liability risk if someone got injured, and if this practice became publically known they could become ostracized by the industry and their affiliations with dive organizations would be severed.  It gives the whole industry a black eye so at least in first world nations it’s pretty solid.  You might find people in third world nations more willing to play fast and loose with these practices, but I always advise people to avoid those outfits like the plague that they are.

So yeah, people can do what they want.  That doesn’t automatically mean that they should, and those who know better often speak up about it, as they ought.


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> This is true.  Nobody can stop someone from doing something, even if it is unethical and even if the person is incompetent, so long as it is not illegal.



It's much harder to create objective standards of competency in something as varied and vague as "martial arts" than something technical with clear and objectively certifiable standards as diving, piloting and airplane, performing  brain surgery, and so forth.

I gather from reading _Tez's_ posts that there are stricter, governmentally sanctioned standards for MA gyms in Britain, and also perhaps on the Continent, but I'm not sure how successful that is in assuring quality. My experience here in the States has been that bureaucratic oversight based on belonging to "established" organizations is _no_ guarantee of quality of instruction. At best, it may insure that ethical business practices are followed, but if so, I haven't seen evidence of that. 

Most "McDojos" have some kind of official association membership and credentials, but they don't necessarily provide high quality instruction. And conversely, I've encountered some martial artists of the highest caliber who were virtually unknown and had no membership or registration with _any_ governing body. If such licensing were required, these kind of people might choose not to teach at all. By way of example, think of Grandmaster Yip Man when he first began teaching in Hong Kong. If he had to go through a long bureaucratic licensing process, he may never have taught his Wing Chun to the world! 

Perhaps the best thing is for potential customers to do a little research before jumping in?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2017)

All modern technology are evolved from something else.

- The "Window System" was evolved from "DOS" and "Apple Lisa".
- The "Apple Lisa" was evolved from "Xerox Star".

Can DOS stop Window from being evolved? I don't think so. Can boxing, wrestling stop MMA? I don't think that's possible either.

Can Pin Sun Wing Chun stop someone from evolving it into Wing Chun Boxing?


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All modern technology are evolved from something else.
> - The "Window System" was evolved from "DOS" and "Apple Lisa".
> - The "Apple Lisa" was evolved from "Xerox Star".
> Can DOS stop Window from being evolved? I don't think so. Can boxing, wrestling stop MMA? I don't think that's possible either.
> Can Pin Sun Wing Chun stop someone from evolving it into Wing Chun Boxing?



Stop already. Your logic is killing me! _Get thee behind me impious Satan!_


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## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2017)

geezer said:


> It's much harder to create objective standards of competency in something as varied and vague as "martial arts" than something technical with clear and objectively certifiable standards as diving, piloting and airplane, performing  brain surgery, and so forth.
> 
> I gather from reading _Tez's_ posts that there are stricter, governmentally sanctioned standards for MA gyms in Britain, and also perhaps on the Continent, but I'm not sure how successful that is in assuring quality. My experience here in the States has been that bureaucratic oversight based on belonging to "established" organizations is _no_ guarantee of quality of instruction. At best, it may insure that ethical business practices are followed, but if so, I haven't seen evidence of that.
> 
> ...


I don’t disagree, so establishing standards can be very difficult and often if comes down to who will vouche for you as an instructor.
 Often the best person for that is your own instructor.


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## KPM (Oct 15, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> often if comes down to who will vouche for you as an instructor.  Often the best person for that is your own instructor.



Unless it turns out that he is petty and small-minded or on a huge ego trip or very controlling or threatened by someone else's success or creativity, etc.  Leung Ting has turned his back on many good people in his organization, and so has William Cheung.   In the end what counts is what you know and what you can do, not what someone else says you know or thinks you can do.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> Unless it turns out that he is petty and small-minded or on a huge ego trip or very controlling or threatened by someone else's success or creativity, etc.  Leung Ting has turned his back on many good people in his organization, and so has William Cheung.   In the end what counts is what you know and what you can do, not what someone else says you know or thinks you can do.


These negative traits could also describe the student.

I’ve seen way more people who were eager beavers to become a teacher, when they had the skills and understanding of a beginner.  Feelings get hurt when someone wants to be a teacher, and they have no business being such.  

People often have an overinflated notion of their skills and knowldege.


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> These negative traits could also describe the student.
> 
> I’ve seen way more people who were eager beavers to become a teacher, when they had the skills and understanding of a beginner.  Feelings get hurt when someone wants to be a teacher, and they have no business being such.
> 
> People often have an overinflated notion of their skills and knowldege.



I'm sure this is true.  But you haven't once acknowledged that what I have been saying can also be true.  Just ask Alex Richter!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> I'm sure this is true.  But you haven't once acknowledged that what I have been saying can also be true.  Just ask Alex Richter!


I do recognize that it can be true.

I don’t know what happened between you and Alex richter.  I read your exchange and there is a lot of finger pointing but I wasn’t there and don’t know what actually happened.  For all I know, you could both absolutely BELIEVE that you are right and yet both be wrong due to perspectives and misunderstandings.  You you could both simply be selectively embellishing the part of the story that you feel casts yourself in the best light, or you could both be outright lying.  Sure, it is also possible that one of you is being honest and the other is a liar. 

But I am not in a position to judge that.

If a student had already been teaching with full recognition and endorsement of his sifu, and then sifu pulled his endorsement and started saying that the student is not qualified to teach, well then I would say the student should feel free to separate from his sifu and continue to do whatever he wants.  Time to go it alone.

But if a student never had that kind of endorsement to begin with, then I put more stock into sifu’s assessment.  It’s harder to claim the right to be a teacher in that case, there is a lot less credibility.

It is also possible that sifu has endorsed the student to be a teacher, and then the student gets some weird ideas and starts teaching a bunch of stuff that sifu feels is erroneous and is bad teaching.  In that case, sifu says “I no longer endorse him as a student, he should not teach and if he does so, then it is against my wishes and he is no longer associated with me.”  Sifu does have the right to take that position as well.  Student can either change his ways and get in line with sifu’s vision of how things ought to be done, or he can make the separation and do as he will.  But even if student does that, sifu can still continue to speak up and tell people that the student is teaching poor XYZ Kung Fu.

People get all bent out of shape over what they perceive as limits that others are imposing on them.  So some people decide, well screw it, I’ll do what I want, and it is true that nobody can stop them.

But what is also true is that sifu, and those in his camp, can also speak up against what the student doing.  Nobody can stop them from doing that, either.  Just because one side feels riteous about it does not mean that the other side doesn’t feel just as strongly.  And both can speak up about it, and it can get nasty.

It is a two-way street.  That is reality. Once you get yourself, or find yourself, in that situation, it may follow you forever.  Fair or not, that is life.

A lot of Kung Fu training is about the relationships, and it seems people don’t always realize that or give it the thought that it merits.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The idea that you will need permission to teach a certain MA system is ridicules. You don't need any permission to teach any MA system. If you have learned something. It's yours.


I agree as long as you are honest about your qualifications and experience in whatever you are teaching.

If you are a white belt in BJJ and you tell people that and they still want to learn from you, then more power to you.*

If you have never been in a BJJ class but you learned a move from YouTube and someone still wants to learn from you when you tell them the source of your knowledge ... that's on them. Just try not to injure each other, please.

If you are a white belt in BJJ and you tell potential students that you are a black belt ... you and I are going to have some problems.

*(There are UFC fighters who are white belts in BJJ only because they have never bothered to train in the gi and who I would be happy to learn from.)


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know what happened between you and Alex richter. .



Insincere Wing Tsun Amnesia (IWTA)


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> Insincere Wing Tsun Amnesia (IWTA)


A lot of dirty laundry there, but what does it mean to me?  I wasn’t there, I don’t know who is embellishing the truth or cherry picking facts.

That’s the thing with airing laundry and pointing fingers on the internet.  It is intensely important to those involved, but to the bystanders nobody looks good.


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> A lot of dirty laundry there, but what does it mean to me?  I wasn’t there, I don’t know who is embellishing the truth or cherry picking facts.
> 
> That’s the thing with airing laundry and pointing fingers on the internet.  It is intensely important to those involved, but to the bystanders nobody looks good.



Well....you made comments that indicated that you clearly didn't understand what I meant when I was making references to Alex Richter.  So I shared that link out of courtesy since my references to Alex were unclear to you. Most of the Wing Chun people here understood exactly what I was referring to.  But if you want to continue to be a dick about it all, then just go right ahead.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> Well....you made comments that indicated that you clearly didn't understand what I meant when I was making references to Alex Richter.  So I shared that link out of courtesy since my references to Alex were unclear to you. Most of the Wing Chun people here understood exactly what I was referring to.  But if you want to continue to be a dick about it all, then just go right ahead.


Ok, I didn’t read the entire lengthy article by Alex.  I get that he isn’t unhappy with Leung Ting.  

Did he mention you in that article?  Did that article clear up anything about your relationship with Alex?  

And again, how do I know who to believe?  That’s what I’m saying about the dirty laundry on the Internet.  For those in the middle of it, it can be intensely important.  To everyone else who sees it, not so much.


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I didn’t read the entire lengthy article by Alex.  I get that he isn’t unhappy with Leung Ting.
> 
> Did he mention you in that article?  Did that article clear up anything about your relationship with Alex?
> 
> And again, how do I know who to believe?  That’s what I’m saying about the dirty laundry on the Internet.  For those in the middle of it, it can be intensely important.  To everyone else who sees it, not so much.



Geez loo-ezze!   I have no relationship to Alex, I've never met him!  My point was that Jim was doing to me exactly what Leung Ting did to Alex.  It seems to be a "thing" in some Wing Chun circles.   But alright, you obviously haven't been paying very good attention to the actual discussion.  So just drop it.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> Geez loo-ezze!   I have no relationship to Alex, I've never met him!  My point was that Jim was doing to me exactly what Leung Ting did to Alex.  It seems to be a "thing" in some Wing Chun circles.   But alright, you obviously haven't been paying very good attention to the actual discussion.  So just drop it.


Got it, my mistake.  I got Jim and Alex mixed up.

I understand that Leung Ting has a reputation for being...someone to avoid.  I’ve seen that often enough in numerous discussions.

But do you get what I’m saying?  We see this back and forth, people make claims and accusations, how do the spectators know who, if anyone, is in the right?  It’s finger pointing in both directions.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you are a white belt in BJJ and you tell people that and they still want to learn from you, then more power to you.


It all depends on whether or not if you can produce good fighters.

If you are a

- black belt but you can't produce good fighters,
- white belt but you can produce good fighters,

there is something wrong about your belt system.


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## geezer (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Got it, my mistake.  I got Jim and Alex mixed up.
> 
> I understand that Leung Ting has a reputation for being...someone to avoid.  *I’ve seen that often enough in numerous discussions.*
> 
> But do you get what I’m saying?  We see this back and forth, people make claims and accusations, how do the spectators know who, if anyone, is in the right?  It’s finger pointing in both directions.



_Numerous discussions?_ Sounds like rumors to me. Let me clarify a bit. Leung Ting has legit skills. Definitely. ...It's his personality and business practices that give some people problems. Alex Richter for example, had trouble with LT and went off on his own. As did I back in the 90s. But I did so quietly and did not continue to teach Leung Ting's WingTsun.

...The problem is that Richter was an upcoming instructor who _did continue to teach "WT"_ and did so _successfully_.  LT and those who stayed with him then tried to dismiss as a low ranking nobody. His article confirms that that is not the case. He was, in fact, well trained and highly competent.

I was a disciple of LT for a dozen years starting back in 1980 and I can confirm that Richter was a skilled and respected instructor in the LT organization, and now is a successful instructor on his own. Beyond that, I have never met him, and only had one or two brief email contacts with him, so I have nothing more to add.

So what does any of this have to do with Keith (KPM) or the topic at hand? _Nothing_ except that Keith feels he is being attacked in the same way. It's an imperfect analogy, since Richter was with the LT organization a long time and earned a high rank with them (the same rank I had when I left).

Keith apparently did not spend as much time in Pin Sun. But then he doesn't claim to. Now I'm going to propose something that may sound a bit heretical in the hallowed halls of TCMA. Something I learned from my old Escrima coach. _What matters is what you can do, not who you trained under._


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## Danny T (Oct 16, 2017)

geezer said:


> _What matters is what you can do, not who you trained under._


BOOM!!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

geezer said:


> _Numerous discussions?_ Sounds like rumors to me. Let me clarify a bit. Leung Ting has legit skills. Definitely. ...It's his personality and business practices that give some people problems. Alex Richter for example, had trouble with LT and went off on his own. As did I back in the 90s. But I did so quietly and did not continue to teach Leung Ting's WingTsun.



I should have clarified my comment.  I never questioned Leung Tings skill and knowledge.  It is his personality and business practices that, from comments here on Martialtalk over the years have convinced me he is one to be avoided.



> ...The problem is that Richter was an upcoming instructor who _did continue to teach "WT"_ and did so _successfully_.  LT and those who stayed with him then tried to dismiss as a low ranking nobody. His article confirms that that is not the case. He was, in fact, well trained and highly competent.
> 
> I was a disciple of LT for a dozen years starting back in 1980 and I can confirm that Richter was a skilled and respected instructor in the LT organization, and now is a successful instructor on his own. Beyond that, I have never met him, and only had one or two brief email contacts with him, so I have nothing more to add.



Thank you for that third party insight.  Knowing that you were deeply involved with Leung Ting, I accept your assessment of it.  And I do understand and accept that these splinters happen, and people have a way of becoming...unreasonable.



> So what does any of this have to do with Keith (KPM) or the topic at hand? _Nothing_ except that Keith feels he is being attacked in the same way. It's an imperfect analogy, since Richter was with the LT organization a long time and earned a high rank with them (the same rank I had when I left).
> 
> Keith apparently did not spend as much time in Pin Sun. But then he doesn't claim to.



Exactly.  It’s an imperfect analogy.  These things do happen.  Is it happening to Keith?  Obviously he feels it is.  I myself don’t know; I wasn’t there.  But just because it does happen in the world, does not automatically mean it is happening here. 

The discussion has gotten more personal than it should have and I’m not going to go into it further.



> Now I'm going to propose something that may sound a bit heretical in the hallowed halls of TCMA. Something I learned from my old Escrima coach. _What matters is what you can do, not who you trained under._



I don’t disagree.


----------



## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I   Is it happening to Keith?  Obviously he feels it is.  I myself don’t know; I wasn’t there.  But just because it does happen in the world, does not automatically mean it is happening here.
> 
> The discussion _has gotten more personal than it should have  _
> 
> .



Because you Michael, have essentially been calling me a liar across two different threads.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I do recognize that it can be true.
> 
> I don’t know what happened between you and Alex richter.  I read your exchange and there is a lot of finger pointing but I wasn’t there and don’t know what actually happened.  For all I know, you could both absolutely BELIEVE that you are right and yet both be wrong due to perspectives and misunderstandings.  You you could both simply be selectively embellishing the part of the story that you feel casts yourself in the best light, or you could both be outright lying.  Sure, it is also possible that one of you is being honest and the other is a liar.
> 
> ...


I'll just toss out a thought about instructor endorsements. I know a guy who, had he had a falling out with his instructor (also my primary instructor) 10 years ago, he'd have left without an instructor endorsement (never having tested for his shodan, because he never did the requisite student teaching). Had that happened, and he'd decided to open his own school, he'd have been highly qualified to do so. See, he actually started a few years before me, and in some ways has a deeper understanding than I do, though at that time he was technically junior to me (I was shodan, he was ikkyu). He is easily on par with me as an instructor (I recently had a chance to attend a class he taught at my instructor's school), and probably was better prepared than me 10 years ago.

So, I get what you're saying, but I've seen so many instructor/student splits. And in almost none has there been a real "bad guy" - it's almost always either mutual crap-slinging, or just a clash of approaches that made the instructor feel threatened. I'd say that 75% of the cases of real acrimony I've seen, the ego problem was primarily with the instructor. In the other 25%, the student was borderline batshit crazy (at least in the situation in question). So I tend to take both sides with a high dose of skepticism.

Fortunately (as evidenced by the fact that he's still teaching there), that guy never had a falling out with that instructor, so it's all hypothetical.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It all depends on whether or not if you can produce good fighters.
> 
> If you are a
> 
> ...


I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong when a white belt can produce good fighters. There are a lot of reasons why that might be reasonable. He may have experience in other styles (so only a white belt in that style). He may have chosen to retain that rank (sandbagging).

Of course, the other end is a problem if the rank (black belt) is supposed to be an instructor rank, and the style purports to develop fighting/defensive skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> Because you Michael, have essentially been calling me a liar across two different threads.


Keith, I have no stake in this, so please hear this as an honest question. Is it possible you are mis-reading Michael's intent?


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Keith, I have no stake in this, so please hear this as an honest question. Is it possible you are mis-reading Michael's intent?



You tell me.  I'm the one that had done the "distance student" thing and have said that it has worked fine for me.  He has now stated multiple times that he doesn't think that it is workable.  He has stated several times now something about not knowing which side to believe in these lineage disputes despite my efforts at giving a detailed explanation.  That means he has chosen NOT to believe what I have written.  That is essentially disregarding what I have said.  He has said more than once that in such situations "everyone wants to think they are the exception, but they aren't."   So yeah, to me it certainly sounds like he thinks I am lying about what I have written.  What do you think?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> You tell me.  I'm the one that had done the "distance student" thing and have said that it has worked fine for me.  He has now stated multiple times that he doesn't think that it is workable.  He has stated several times now something about not knowing which side to believe in these lineage disputes despite my efforts at giving a detailed explanation.  That means he has chosen NOT to believe what I have written.  That is essentially disregarding what I have said.  He has said more than once that in such situations "everyone wants to think they are the exception, but they aren't."   So yeah, to me it certainly sounds like he thinks I am lying about what I have written.  What do you think?


I see your point. But he doesn't know what you know about the situation. From his point of view, it's all he-said, he-said. And nobody ever (even if they try to) actually presents their side of the story objectively - our own memories make that impossible. His comments, taken as generic comments, aren't way off base. I disagree with some of his conclusions (on a generic level), but not vehemently. I'm just saying it could be that he's making generic comments that happen to sound like they are about you. A PM between you guys could probably clarify it.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> Because you Michael, have essentially been calling me a liar across two different threads.


nevermind.


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## KPM (Oct 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I see your point. But he doesn't know what you know about the situation. From his point of view, it's all he-said, he-said. And nobody ever (even if they try to) actually presents their side of the story objectively - our own memories make that impossible. His comments, taken as generic comments, aren't way off base. I disagree with some of his conclusions (on a generic level), but not vehemently. I'm just saying it could be that he's making generic comments that happen to sound like they are about you. A PM between you guys could probably clarify it.



But he was willing to take Steve's (Geezer's) word for it about what happened between Richter and Leung, but he is not willing to take my word for what happened between me and Jim.  He has repeatedly discounted what I have had to say about the "distance learning" process (at least in my case) and continues to say he doesn't think it works.  And he has repeated his little catch phrase at least twice now..."Everyone wants to think they are the exception. They are not." So yeah, regardless of his point of view, it certainly appears to me that he is essentially calling me a liar.  I don't see any other way to look at it...from my point of view.  I don't think a PM is going to change that.  If he wants to clarify and apologize for any misunderstanding, then he can do that publically.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> But he was willing to take Steve's (Geezer's) word for it about what happened between Richter and Leung, but he is not willing to take my word for what happened between me and Jim.  He has repeatedly discounted what I have had to say about the "distance learning" process (at least in my case) and continues to say he doesn't think it works.  And he has repeated his little catch phrase at least twice now..."Everyone wants to think they are the exception. They are not." So yeah, regardless of his point of view, it certainly appears to me that he is essentially calling me a liar.  I don't see any other way to look at it...from my point of view.  I don't think a PM is going to change that.  If he wants to clarify and apologize for any misunderstanding, then he can do that publically.


For clarity: I have not called you a liar.

This discussion has become more personal than it should have, so I will discontinue my involvement.


----------



## Jim Roselando (Oct 17, 2017)

Lets quickly review, as this will be my last post, this is turning into a he said she said going back 15 years, which tends to be boring and worthless... First, let's focus on the two points I made.

1) Anyone can look at your video and see the TWC influence (body & movement) so my first comment was correct.  

2) The second comment was, you learned quickly, which was also correct.  

As 'one' example I used your version of Jut Choi, so other than you trying to come up with a million ways to somehow turn four weekends over a decade into vast training experience, essentially our discussion was complete. 

Yes. You are correct. I required all out of state study groups to share footage so I can check their progress. I also keep regular communication with everyone. You can try to make that sound glorious, I know this is your home for promoting the 'I'm a Pin Sun Instructor' facade, but the reality is four weekends over a decade. That's it amigo. I know I know, you had this incredible foundation in WC so you don't need a teacher (which is so arrogant) but both Joy & Kurt have different opinions on your foundation and these were the only two guys you actually spent a 'little time' training under.  


Comparing yourself to Alex is a laughable attempt at a Pity Party for poor Keith. Poor me. Poor me. I'm being attacked!  You high jacked my thread!  ROFLOL   I actually only made two points, on a public forum, and then you decided to try and glorify your background rather than be honest which started the debate.


Now, you can try to distract from the above by saying its about secrecy or even compare that to Leung Ting, which just shows you and I wont see eye to eye.  One thing to remember, nobody said, don't train other stuff, don't visit other schools, don't create your own version. etc.... Just about all our guys, including me, cross train with other arts.  So I guess if requesting someone to actually train their art before teaching it is such a bad thing....I'm guilty.      



Remember, you requested to study an art, we said, OK! Come on up!   Just don't teach until you are qualified.... That was the only thing requested. 


You wanted to come up. I said, Ok. 

You wanted to film, I said OK.  

We wanted, no teaching until qualified. You said OK.

"END OF STORY" 


That's it!  Nothing else. Did I even charge you for training?!?!  NO!   That's right, your training was even FREE.   

Geez, we sound like such horrible people based on having one request?   Any of this ring any bells?  Our so-called fallout that you stated happened wasn't because of this? You and I both know it was...   So this entire nonsense goes back to you agreeing to our sole request, and not being a man of your word, but somehow we are the bad guys? Go figure.....  The simple reason you were no longer welcome as part of our 'study group' students was because the moment you learned anything you ran to the internet which is no different than today.       


The other gentleman you complained about, who not long ago mentioned you on this forum, Jason, personally asked Mui Sifu about your credentials in his association. He was curious as he read your, I am an Instructor under Mui being thrown around, so he decided to asked him, Who is KPM? Sorry you didn't appreciate his posts but he got his info from the source. I guess Mui Sifu must have lied to him... 

In the end, I really don't care what people do or how people train. That's not the point of this discussion. Anyone can create whatever they want. Personally, that's not my thing as I don't believe in reinventing the wheel but as long as it keeps you healthy & happy that's cool.   One thing to remember, nobody ever said, don't train other stuff, don't visit other schools, don't create your own version. etc.... Just about all our guys, including me, cross train with other arts.  So I guess if requesting someone to actually train their art before teaching it is such a bad thing....I'm guilty.     

Unfortunately, this wonderful trip down memory lane has been fun but a complete waste of time. Why? All I replied was, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned. Both were 100% accurate despite the spin doctors attempts to distract, throw blame elsewhere and re-write his background rather than be honest.  

Thanks for the stimulating discussion.


----------



## geezer (Oct 17, 2017)

Jim Roselando said:


> Let's focus on the two points I made. All I replied was, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned. Both were 100% accurate...



Hey Jim, all you ever had to say was what's quoted above. And it would have been acceptable to add that your organization has not granted Keith "full instructor status". That's useful information.

The problem I have with your lengthy debate with Keith on this forum is that Keith is _not _promoting himself as a Pin Sun instructor, or a TWC instructor, or an Augustine Fong WC instructor. He is now working on a functional blend of Western boxing, historical western pugilism and Wing Chun (including what he picked up from all the previously mentioned lineages).

As traditional Chinese Martial artists, we may not agree with that approach, but I think we do agree that he is free to explore and go in whatever new directions he so chooses ...as long as he isn't _falsely representing himself_. And, I see no evidence that he is doing that at this time, regardless of any old history between you two. So why not let it go and wish him the best in his new endeavours?


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## Nobody Important (Oct 17, 2017)

geezer said:


> Hey Jim, all you ever had to say was what's quoted above. And it would have been acceptable to add that your organization has not granted Keith "full instructor status". That's useful information.
> 
> The problem I have with your lengthy debate with Keith on this forum is that Keith is _not _promoting himself as a Pin Sun instructor, or a TWC instructor, or an Augustine Fong WC instructor. He is now working on a functional blend of Western boxing, historical western pugilism and Wing Chun (including what he picked up from all the previously mentioned lineages).
> 
> As traditional Chinese Martial artists, we may not agree with that approach, but I think we do agree that he is free to explore and go in whatever new directions he so chooses ...as long as he isn't _falsely representing himself_. And, I see no evidence that he is doing that at this time, regardless of any old history between you two. So why not let it go and wish him the best in his new endeavours?


Well said Steve, and I agree.


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## KPM (Oct 17, 2017)

*
1) Anyone can look at your video and see the TWC influence (body & movement) so my first comment was correct.*

---It would have been nice if you had actually gone back and read my previous replies before just repeating the same old thing again.  If you are referring to what I "created"....meaning the adaptation of the Jut Choi San Sik that I showed as part of "Wing Chun Boxing", then Ok.  Its not classical Pin Sun and I never claimed it was!  But there is as much western boxing influence there as there is TWC influence.  But, you didn't bother to read what a wrote previously, so you didn't bother to clarify what you are talking about.


*2) The second comment was, you learned quickly, which was also correct.*

---No its not.  We kind of hashed out what would be an "old China" approach to distance learning on the other thread and what I did was very close.  That's just your bias and your prejudice to now try and devalue and belittle a program that you designed and that I followed just because I showed actual classical Pin Sun Wing Chun on video.  If you were really being honest, you would admit that your primary reason for making all these comments was because I dared to show actual Pin Sun on video in an instructional manner.



*Yes. You are correct. I required all out of state study groups to share footage so I can check their progress. I also keep regular communication with everyone. You can try to make that sound glorious,*

---No one has tried to make it sound "glorious".  I've only maintained that this was a viable way to learn for someone that already had a background in Wing Chun.  Why you are coming along now and trying to devalue and belittle a program that you yourself created is what people should be wondering about.


* I know this is your home for promoting the 'I'm a Pin Sun Instructor' facade, but the reality is four weekends over a decade.*

---And again, you are completely discounting the feedback I received from you, the many many hours of training put in, my own personal insight and talent I might have brought to the table, and my past experience.  Learning did not stop just because I was not in your presence.  You're not that special!


*That's it amigo. I know I know, you had this incredible foundation in WC so you don't need a teacher (which is so arrogant)*

---And I never said that.  You are the one now sounding arrogant by trying to put such words in my mouth.


*but both Joy & Kurt have different opinions on your foundation and these were the only two guys you actually spent a 'little time' training under.*

----"A little time."  You have no idea what you are talking about.  I spent 4 years training 2 to 3 nights per week, in person, with either Joy or Kurt.  What do you know about it? You've been listening to Joy?   Joy tells everyone here that Pin Sun is "just a collection of drills" and not a true system of Wing Chun based upon listening to you.  So I think we can dismiss Joy's assessments.



*Comparing yourself to Alex is a laughable attempt at a Pity Party for poor Keith. Poor me. Poor me. I'm being attacked!  You high jacked my thread!  ROFLOL   I actually only made two points, on a public forum, and then you decided to try and glorify your background rather than be honest which started the debate.*


---I'm not "glorifying" anything.  You are doing your best to discredit me, disown me from Pin Sun, and devalue the training I had.   Anyone is invited to read the blog I posted from Alex Richter to see the comparison I have made.  And you are the one sounding very arrogant in your comment above.

*
Remember, you requested to study an art, we said, OK! Come on up!   Just don't teach until you are qualified.... That was the only thing requested.*

---And I didn't.  I had one main training partner, which was your requirement for the program.  Scott hit a patch when he was out for awhile and I recruited someone else so I would continue to have a training partner while he was gone.  So I was sharing what I knew with only 2 people while I was with you.  Then when we parted ways, I'm was free to do whatever I wanted.  But I still didn't go out and start a school or group and begin teaching Pin Sun. And  I still didn't share the video we made with anyone.



*Geez, we sound like such horrible people based on having one request?* 

---A request which I honored.


*Any of this ring any bells?  Our so-called fallout that you stated happened wasn't because of this? You and I both know it was...* 

---I don't know what you think was happening at the time.  But I only had two people I was sharing Pin Sun with as training partners when we parted ways.   You were demanding that everyone do the Chi Gung standing post everyday for 20 to 30 minutes.  You were demanding that I stop posting on any forums.  You keep conveniently leaving that part out.

*
 So this entire nonsense goes back to you agreeing to our sole request, and not being a man of your word, but somehow we are the bad guys?*

---You were demanding and controlling and I DID agree to what was NOT your "sole request."  I was only sharing Pin Sun with 2 training partners.  I wasn't teaching it openly and publically.    Either you have a poor memory, or you are simply on a crusade of character assassination here.


*Go figure.....  The simple reason you were no longer welcome as part of our 'study group' students was because the moment you learned anything you ran to the internet which is no different than today*.

---Ah!  Now a little glimmer of the truth emerges!   You make it sound like I was giving detailed accounts of Pin Sun or sharing video clips or something. I wasn't.  I mostly talked about the history and the organization of the curriculum.  What was happening is that you wanted to be seen as THE authority on Pin Sun on the internet, and having someone else talking about Pin Sun took away from that.  And one incident does stand out in my memory around the time we parted ways.  I believe I had mentioned either "Got Bong" or "Got Gan" in the KFO forum.  You told me not to bring that up because most Wing Chun lineages don't know what that is and we should keep it to ourselves.



*The other gentleman you complained about, who not long ago mentioned you on this forum, Jason,*

---So he was your student!  Very rude and disrespectful!  And I wasn't the only one that pointed it out to him!


* personally asked Mui Sifu about your credentials in his association. He was curious as he read your, I am an Instructor under Mui being thrown around, so he decided to asked him, Who is KPM? Sorry you didn't appreciate his posts but he got his info from the source. I guess Mui Sifu must have lied to him...*

---Well, first of all my certificate from Henry Miu reads "4th level instructor"...I think.  I'll check. It doesn't say "junior instructor."  But certificates don't mean much to me.  But even if it actually said "junior instructor".....that is still an instructor!   Marc was the one that spent time with me.  Not my fault if Henry Miu has a bad memory for names. 

---And I will say again something that you have simply ignored......Marc did not put any limitations on me at all.  He didn't tell me I couldn't teach my Wing Chun to others.  He didn't tell me there was a requirement to come back for more training if I wanted to teach others.  He welcomed me to the family and said I could come back and train with them any time I wanted. Marc approved of my Pin Sun knowledge and gave me his blessing.  Given that he is also a direct senior student of Henry Miu, like yourself, I think I can safely say that your opinion is therefore null and void.  You have not seen me or touched hands with me in over 10 years.  And the only thing I didn't learn was the pole form.  And sorry, but I wasn't impressed with the Pin Sun pole form and I wasn't going to pay a big fee to learn it simply so Henry Miu would give me a certificate that said "Sifu."



*In the end, I really don't care what people do or how people train. That's not the point of this discussion. Anyone can create whatever they want.*

---Great!  Then stop giving me crap and attempting your "character assassination"!


*Unfortunately, this wonderful trip down memory lane has been fun but a complete waste of time. Why? All I replied was, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned. Both were 100% accurate despite the spin doctors attempts to distract, throw blame elsewhere and re-write his background rather than be honest.*

---I have been perfectly honest.  You haven't tried to deny anything I have written other than me saying it wasn't "quickly learned."   And, as I have pointed out, if you think the distant learning process I have gone through was "quickly learned" then you have very poor judgment, and everyone should be questioning your motives for coming here.


----------



## KPM (Oct 17, 2017)




----------



## KPM (Oct 17, 2017)

Now, clearly anyone can see that my certificate, signed by Sifu Henry Mui, says "Level Five (Instructor)".  Maybe that's a junior instructor in his organization.  I don't know.  I wasn't told that.  Again, Marc Kenney was my primary instructor for my Pin Sun "revamp" or "update."  He was happy with my skills and depth of knowledge.  He did not tell me I was limited in any way as far as teaching what I know to others.  He welcomed me back to the Pin Sun family and invited to come back to Boston for training at any time.  So if I have stated here in the past that I was an "Instructor under Henry Mui", this certificate backs up what I was saying.  I've never claimed to represent Henry Mui or his organization.  I have never claimed to represent anyone other than myself.  I mention Henry Mui if someone asks about my Pin Sun background so they will know exactly what version of Pin Sun I have studied.  What Henry Mui teaches is different from John Fung's "Ku Lo 22 Points", different from Robert Chu's "Gu Lao 40 points", and different from Lee Sing/Joseph Lee/Mick Watson's "GuLao Pin Sun."  So I feel like it is appropriate to clarify that my Pin Sun background is through Henry Mui.  To not do that would seem to be disrespectful.

Consider that, even as a "junior" instructor it would imply far more knowledge and skill than Jim has given me credit for.  It certainly implies something more than "quickly learned" over a couple of weekends. 

Consider that Jim has not seen me, touched hands with me, or had anything to do with me for over 10 years.  Yet he thinks he knows me and what my skill level might be.  THAT is very arrogant on his part!

So hopefully people are starting to ask themselves what Jim's real motivation is for coming here  to cause trouble.  I'm telling you it is because I posted videos on youtube that showed a couple of the classical Pin Sun sets and their training progression.  That is the main reason.   And he accuses me of not being honest!  I have been honest and up front with everything I have posted so far.

This has clearly been a  "smear campaign" by Jim Roselando.  Which is pretty low and pathetic.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 17, 2017)

KPM said:


> *1) Anyone can look at your video and see the TWC influence (body & movement) so my first comment was correct.*
> 
> ---It would have been nice if you had actually gone back and read my previous replies before just repeating the same old thing again.  If you are referring to what I "created"....meaning the adaptation of the Jut Choi San Sik that I showed as part of "Wing Chun Boxing", then Ok.  Its not classical Pin Sun and I never claimed it was!  But there is as much western boxing influence there as there is TWC influence.  But, you didn't bother to read what a wrote previously, so you didn't bother to clarify what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


(((Somewhere I was mentioned-not by my choice.AAARG! KPM attended some of my classes for about 22 months in New Mexico.
I gave him an assistant instructor certificate
before returning to Arizona. I  was so disappointed in his lack of development after that, I cancelled the certificate and informed him accordingly.))


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## KPM (Oct 17, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> (((Somewhere I was mentioned-not by my choice.AAARG! KPM attended some of my classes for about 22 months in New Mexico.
> I gave him an assistant instructor certificate
> before returning to Arizona. I  was so disappointed in his lack of development after that, I cancelled the certificate and informed him accordingly.))



I thought you would probably show up!  I didn't mention you.  Jim did!  And you have never ever said anything to me about being disappointed with my lack of development or "canceling" any certificate.  I'll say it out-right....THAT is a bold-faced lie!  But I could care less.  Like Jim, you assume that when you left town my learning stopped.  It didn't.  You have no idea how much I continued to study with Kurt and you have no idea how many times I attended seminars at Fong's school after that, because you weren't around.  You have no idea how much time I spent training with Randy Li later on, because you weren't around.  Like Jim, you haven't seen me, touched hands with me, or had anything to do with me (other than arguing on this forum) for 30....that's right...30 years!!!!!   Your opinion on the matter means diddly squat!   

So how about you tell your buddy Jim your often repeated opinion about Pin Sun being just a "collection of drills" and not a true system of Wing Chun?  

You have always held a grudge against me because I left Fong's system and went on to study other things.  I've never understood why that is the case.  But it certainly seems to be true.


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## Jens (Oct 18, 2017)

KPM said:


> What was happening is that you wanted to be seen as THE authority on Pin Sun on the internet, and having someone else talking about Pin Sun took away from you.



Bingo! that's what this is all about, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to post on here, Sounds like he have Napoleonic complex! what a D!ck!


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## LFJ (Oct 18, 2017)

Jim Roselando said:


> The simple reason you were no longer welcome as part of our 'study group' students was because the moment you learned anything you ran to the internet which is no different than today.



Haha!

Just like how he made one (1) trip to Hong Kong to learn about Tang Yik pole, and as soon as he got home he started teaching it and making master's class videos teaching it all wrong.

Internet forums are where he comes for validation and gratification because he knows he's basically a self-taught master. 

I knew it. Hilarious!


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## KPM (Oct 18, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Haha!
> 
> Just like how he made one (1) trip to Hong Kong to learn about Tang Yik pole, and as soon as he got home he started teaching it and making master's class videos teaching it all wrong.
> 
> ...



Again, another clueless idiot weighs in!  Welcome back LFJ!  Here to stir up more trouble?  "Master's class"???  What the heck are you even talking about???  I made some videos showing the basic mechanics of the pole that I learned from Sifu Michael Tang.  I shared them with only a few people, and did not make them all public. I put a few of them up here that showed some very basics and to give some background to help promote SIfu Tang and the Tang family pole method.  I have not taught the actual Tang Yik pole form to anyone including my small group of students, and I have not put it in those series of videos.  All I have shown is the basic techniques mechanics and basic drills.   "Master's class"?   You have no idea what you are even talking about.

And you don't know Tang Yik pole.  So how would you know if I was "teaching it all wrong"????

Isn't it amazing how the petty and small-minded people love to pile on when they think they smell blood?     Does anyone else want to take a shot at me?


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## geezer (Oct 18, 2017)

There you have it! KPM's certificate _has been cancelled_. Next thing you know, his university and high school will be also be demanding his diplomas back for "lack of development". In fact, I have it on good authority that his kindergarten teacher is also revoking his advancement to first grade. She will be posting about it here shortly.


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## geezer (Oct 18, 2017)

That does it. Keith, I'm revoking your certificate in _Geezer-fu_. You've shown way too little development, ....especially around the waistline.


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## Steve (Oct 18, 2017)

KPM said:


> Does anyone else want to take a shot at me?


Well, okay.  Since you asked.  I think your name is dumb. What kind of a kung fu name is Keith?


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## KPM (Oct 18, 2017)

geezer said:


> That does it. Keith, I'm revoking your certificate in _Geezer-fu_. You've shown way too little development, ....especially around the waistline.



Oh, waist-line development is not an issue!


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## KPM (Oct 18, 2017)

Steve said:


> Well, okay.  Since you asked.  I think your name is dumb. What kind of a kung fu name is Keith?



Maybe I should change it to "Keefu"?


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## Parky (Oct 18, 2017)

KPM said:


> Maybe I should change it to "Keefu"?



It's been taken. You know, 'Keefu Sotholan'...the actor from '24'. Well that's how our chef at the local Chinese restaurant says it anyway.


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## jks9199 (Oct 18, 2017)

Thread locked pending staff review.

jks9199
MT Administrator


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 19, 2017)

ADMIN NOTE:
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While staff does not read every thread (we are volunteers, all of whom have lives outside MT) we do our best, and when we see or are notified about posts or threads that violate the TOS, we respond. In this case, we are locking the thread, and it will remain locked. The alternative would be to issue a lot of warning points to a lot of people involved in this thread.
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Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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