# TaeKwonDo and hip surgery prevelance



## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

As a relatively young practitioner (30) around older practitioners with hip surgery, I get the sensation that father time is just waiting me out.

Why are TKDoins so injury prone and are there ways to medigate that? For an example, if I try to keep my weight as low as possible, will that reduce the risk of kicking related injuries?


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 26, 2020)

It's not just TKD . Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris both had hip replacements.   I heard   Don Wilson opine that anatomically hips are designed more for impact with legs at normal walking and running angles.   Now, for instance when you do a side kick on a heavy bag that angle is different and part of what takes a toll over time.   In one of He Il Cho's books he say to never use a bag over 60lbs  because  that is enough to develop and test power and heavier bags provide unnecessary impact resistance.    Other factors like mine was a congenital misalignment I did no know I had (although I never knew why I had such trouble getting heel higher than toes on  side kick until I learned of this)  and Orthopedic MD told me this leads to hip issues later - and this was before I was aware of such issue.   TKD has a lot of jumping compare to some TMAs so, those landing impacts play a part as well.   So, good training surfaces, lessening impact repetitions  and similar things can reduce the chance of hip issues.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> It's not just TKD . Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris both had hip replacements.   I heard   Don Wilson opine that anatomically hips are designed more for impact with legs at normal walking and running angles.   Now, for instance when you do a side kick on a heavy bag that angle is different and part of what takes a toll over time.   In one of He Il Cho's books he say to never use a bag over 60lbs  because  that is enough to develop and test power and heavier bags provide unnecessary impact resistance.    Other factors like mine was a congenital misalignment I did no know I had (although I never knew why I had such trouble getting heel higher than toes on  side kick until I learned of this)  and Orthopedic MD told me this leads to hip issues later - and this was before I was aware of such issue.   TKD has a lot of jumping compare to some TMAs so, those landing impacts play a part as well.   So, good training surfaces, lessening impact repetitions  and similar things can reduce the chance of hip issues.



What do you think about the fact that we elongate the hips with our body mechanics unlike Karatekas who tend to crunch and contract? Does it matter which way you do it for long-term health? I've heard that an entire class in Shotokan got injured from side kick lessons because they force the students this forward crunch.

See here for reference. No TKD style executes side kicks like this. 

:


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## dvcochran (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> As a relatively young practitioner (30) around older practitioners with hip surgery, I get the sensation that father time is just waiting me out.
> 
> Why are TKDoins so injury prone and are there ways to medigate that? For an example, if I try to keep my weight as low as possible, will that reduce the risk of kicking related injuries?



I do not know the numbers statistically but I doubt injuries in TKD are any higher than most other MA;s or other sports related activities. Just because of it's nature I do imagine more injuries occur at/below the waist. It can be a bear on the knees.
I feel strongly that flexibility is the greatest ally for stemming injury in any physical activity. As well, common sense and knowing your own limits are paramount. This is much harder for a youthful, fit person to evaluate IMHO. An example would be doing head level kicks on a tree/wall/etc... Even a strongly affixed heavy punching bag could be cumulative. A younger/fit person may not feel anything errant while doing this but common sense should tell you there is no real value in doing it over and over, day after day. This is very different from toughening up the hands or feet IMHO. 
I do believe we can increase our range of motion without injury but it takes time.  

One thing I discovered in my competition experience is when we drilled it was very light contact, working mainly on strategy and technique. You learned to conserve your energy and strength for the very brief periods when you needed it.

"Going hard" all the time is an old school notion that has largely been debunked. I think the phrase has changed in meaning over time; you can 'go hard' in your workout without causing any injury. Just be smart, listen to your body and use your common sense. 

All that said, accept the challenges and see how far you can go.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I .
> I feel strongly that flexibility is the greatest ally for stemming injury in any physical activity. .



All my TKD colleagues with surgeries can perform the full splits


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

What is the consensus on stretching. take days off completely or always do a little every day


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

I believe that anatomically the hips and legs are best used forward and backward (as in walking) and less so in sideways movement.

So exaggerated movements like high kicks are less potentially damaging for front kicks and back kicks, and more potentially damaging for kicks that raise the leg to the side, such as side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and hook kicks.

Of course your legs can move to the side; the human body has an amazing range of movement.  But if the movement is exaggerated, as is done with high kicks, and particularly with kicks that raise to the side, and done with high repetition, over many years (just how many will vary from person-to-person) the hips can become damaged.  It’s like any sports related injury that comes from heavy use and repeated injury.  Football players can end up with joint injuries from the rough nature of the game.  Competitive swimmers can develop shoulder injuries from years of heavy training.   Martial artists can end up with repetitive motion injuries, especially if the movement is extreme.

I’m not a TKD person but I had clean, high kicks in my training, for years.  My training has had some interruptions in the last few years and I have spent far less time with kicks than I did in the past.  I’m also getting past my physical prime, as I turned 49 earlier this year.  My front kicks are still clean and I can easily do them high.  My back kicks are clean, but I’ve never done them above the midsection.  But my side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and hook kicks really deteriorated.  I’ve lowered them dramatically and it has taken time to clean them up again.  I anticipate never using them high anymore, and I’ve decided I’m not a big fan of the hook and roundhouse anymore.  I think that speaks to the natural movement of front-to-back, and less natural for raising to the side.

I had a teacher a number of years ago who grew up training in the 1960s and 1970s.  That was an era when people used little or no safety equipment and would beat the crap out of each other in sparring.  He had his hips replaced, and I believe that early training with heavy contact contributed to it.  People like to glamorize the “good old days” when people trained hard and “really learned how to fight” and contrast that with the “snowflakes” of today who can’t handle it.  I think that’s nonsense.  There needs to be a reasonable balance between solid training and safety.  But stupid training is stupid training, and if you beat the crap out of each other in your youth to spend the last 30 years of your life barely able to walk, I would say that was stupid training and not a good trade.  The problem is that you often don’t realize you are doing the damage until it is done and cannot be avoided.  So you need to have some foresight and make some smart decisions about how you train.  And you need to recognize when someone like an instructor is demanding that you do something in your training that you recognize is damaging to you, even if not immediately damaging but will be in the future if continued.  And you need to be ready to say no.  And some people will be able to get away with things for their whole life, without injury, that other people won’t.  So people need to make personal decisions and recognize that there will be contrary examples to be found.

So anyways, there can be more than one factor that goes into this.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe that anatomically the hips and legs are best used forward and backward (as in walking) and less so in sideways movement.
> 
> So exaggerated movements like high kicks are less potentially damaging for front kicks and back kicks, and more potentially damaging for kicks that raise the leg to the side, such as side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and hook kicks.
> 
> ...



But the most commonly used rear leg roundhouse kick is not 45 degrees  (although ITF patterns such as Hwa Rang promote that one). But rather the one that lands around center line. And that's surely not a side motion.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But the most commonly used rear leg roundhouse kick is not 45 degrees  (although ITF patterns such as Hwa Rang promote that one). But rather the one that lands around center line. And that's surely not a side motion.


The hip and leg goes through a motion that raises it sideways from the body.  Your supporting foot pivots so the toes point to the back (exactly how much may vary) and the leg and hip are extended somewhere out from the side of the body, or at least go through that range somewhere in the path of the kick.  

Contrast it with a front snap kick or front heel-thrust kick, and with a back heel thrust kick.  Those follow a similar motion to walking, in the sense that the hip and leg move forward or backward, and not to the side.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2020)

What makes you think there is any connection between TKD and hip surgery?


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> What makes you think there is any connection between TKD and hip surgery?



99.9% of all TKD grandmasters I know of has had a hip surgery, including Earl Weiss.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The hip and leg goes through a motion that raises it sideways from the body.  Your supporting foot pivots so the toes point to the



Not the closed variation where the chamber is like a front kick - the most common way of doing it sparring to save time.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> 99.9% of all TKD grandmasters I know of has had a hip surgery, including Earl Weiss.



I'm guessing you don't know very many then. Because I know bunches who have not. I'd like to see your research comparing the rate of occurrence for TKD practitioners and the general population.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm guessing you don't know very many then. Because I know bunches who have not. I'd like to see your research comparing the rate of occurrence for TKD practitioners and the general population.



I'll expand to master since GM titel is much rarer:

Jaroslaw Suska, 7th degree, ITF world champion
Ray Oneill: grandmaster,
Miss julia: ITF world champion,
Master Sutherland (twice)
Master James Tjin-a-Ton:

etc etc


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not the closed variation where the chamber is like a front kick - the most common way of doing it sparring to save time.


Do you pivot the supporting foot and shifting the torso? 

Are you simply spiraling at the knee, with no adjustment of the supporting foot or the torso?  Are you ending up facing forward with the shoulders squared?

Could you find a video link of what you are talking about?


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'll expand to master since GM titel is much rarer:
> 
> Jaroslaw Suska, 7th degree, ITF world champion
> Ray Oneill: grandmaster,
> ...



So you don't understand the difference between evidence and anecdotes?


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you don't understand the difference between evidence and anecdotes?



I'm not Kim Peek. It was not hard to round up 5 names of master level practioners who went under the knife. I guess the bigger question is who didn't.


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## jobo (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'm not Kim Peek. It was not hard to round up 5 names of master level practioners who went under the knife. I guess the bigger question is who didn't.


i think findibg any one of that age who hasnt got dodgy hips is difficult, the surgerys may be more or less than the general population, excesive ise gives problems, little use gives problems, perhaps finding some whete in the middle os best


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'm not Kim Peek. It was not hard to round up 5 names of master level practioners who went under the knife. I guess the bigger question is who didn't.



It's equally simple to round up 5 names who didn't.
Me. GM Valdez. GM Kim. GM Castor. GM Lee. etc etc.
But of course, that's anecdotal, same as yours. And equally useless. 
Apparently you don't have any evidence to support your supposition. That's fine. You're free to believe whatever you like. But since it's not based on any actual evidence, I don't think you should be shocked if people don't take it seriously.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's equally simple to round up 5 names who didn't.
> Me. GM Valdez. GM Kim. GM Castor. GM Lee. etc etc.
> But of course, that's anecdotal, same as yours. And equally useless.
> Apparently you don't have any evidence to support your supposition. That's fine. You're free to believe whatever you like. But since it's not based on any actual evidence, I don't think you should be shocked if people don't take it seriously.



How can I provide evidence of something that is not researched?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

It is absolutely possible to reach reasonable conclusions on topics that have not been academically studied.  Anecdote is not rigorous science, but is not automatically junk either.  Looking at it within the greater context can lead to reasonable conclusions.

In this case, I think the reasonable assumption is that many years of training high kicks can lead to hip deterioration.  It’s not guaranteed.  And it may be one of multiple factors that contributes.  The quality of instruction one received, the accuracy of one’s biomechanics, their consistency, their genetic predispositions, etc. can all contribute one way or the other.  As well as other injuries or activities.  But it is not a crazy position to take.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you pivot the supporting foot and shifting the torso?



Yeah but unlike in the lead leg side kick I am moving my hip dynamically, instead of holding it up statically up and stretching out the leg as in a lead leg side kick. It would seem, assuming one is careful about heights, that a roundhouse kick is OK


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> It is absolutely possible to reach reasonable conclusions on topics that have not been academically studied.  Anecdote is not rigorous science, but is not automatically junk either.  Looking at it within the greater context can lead to reasonable conclusions.
> 
> In this case, I think the reasonable assumption is that many years of training high kicks can lead to hip deterioration.  It’s not guaranteed.  And it may be one of multiple factors that contributes.  The quality of instruction one received, the accuracy of one’s biomechanics, their consistency, their genetic predispositions, etc. can all contribute one way or the other.  As well as other injuries or activities.  But it is not a crazy position to take.



My own feeling is that it has to do  genetically with how strong the ligaments are held together. I mostly feel rock solid in my knees and hips and this corresponds to not getting injured. 

That said, I don’t fixate on head heights. I throw head kicks 5% of the time. Never side kick head heights either.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How can I provide evidence of something that is not researched?



By doing research. Or, if that's too much trouble, by being upfront and clear about your statements being nothing more than unsupported opinion. I mean, you made the claim that 99.9% had surgery. And that's patently nonsense.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah but unlike in the lead leg side kick I am moving my hip dynamically, instead of holding it up statically up and stretching out the leg as in a lead leg side kick. It would seem, assuming one is careful about heights, that a roundhouse kick is OK


Im having difficulty envisioning this.  Can you point to a video clip?  And I don’t think you need to hold the hip and stretch it.  If the leg and hip travel through that range, then youve got the sideways motion.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My own feeling is that it has to do  genetically with how strong the ligaments are held together. I mostly feel rock solid in my knees and hips and this corresponds to not getting injured.
> 
> That said, I don’t fixate on head heights. I throw head kicks 5% of the time. Never side kick head heights either.


Well, I think it can be like any repetitive motion injury.  If you overdue it, you can damage the joint.  Just exactly what it means to overdue it can be different from one person to another.  And genetics may or may not have anything to do with it.  You may be just fine.  Or you may THINK you are fine and then find out you have a repetitive motion injury 20 years from now.  We cannot predict it with certainty.

If the majority of your kicking is waist height and lower, especially with side kicks and hook kicks and (I still maintain) roundhouse kicks, then I suspect you may not have troubles. But it just depends on how things roll out for you.

You can also injure the knee if you snap out a front snap kick to strongly and to the very end of the knee’s range of movement.  That can happen on one kick, or it can be gradual over time.  I don’t think it means you should never do the kick.  It means you need to take reasonable steps to protect yourself from injury when you train.  Control the snap so it isn’t at absolute extreme range of movement.  Hold a bit in reserve.  Be aware of the risk.

The real conclusion is, training can lead to injury so take reasonable precautions.  And then go train and don’t fixate on it.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> By doing research. Or, if that's too much trouble, by being upfront and clear about your statements being nothing more than unsupported opinion. I mean, you made the claim that 99.9% had surgery. And that's patently nonsense.



No. I wrote that 99.9% of the GMs I know about in my affiliation seems to have had surgery of some kind. I'm confident that a polling would show that at
least 75% have had surgery.

In my school, 2 out 4 who train 100% have undergone surgery, and one being only 17 years of age and is naturally flexible, world competitor.

All of this despite the special care given to stretching in Taekwondo.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You can also injure the knee if you snap out a front snap kick to strongly and to the very end of the knee’s range of movement.



That's why one doesn't go 100% in the air


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's why one doesn't go 100% in the air


Yup,  but my point is, physical activity carries some risk of injury of a variety of types.  So to draw some conclusion that engaging in TKD could lead to an injury requiring a hip replacement eventually, is reasonable.  It is far from guaranteed and a variety of factors likely are part of the mix.  But the conclusion that involvement in a physical activity like TKD could lead to some kind of injury is reasonable.  

Is the frequency for specifically hip replacement more prevalent in TKD than other systems that also use kicks, like karate or capoeira?  Well that kind of distinction probably does need some academic study before any conclusions can be made.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yup,  but my point is, physical activity carries some risk of injury of a variety of types.  So to draw some conclusion that engaging in TKD could lead to an injury requiring a hip replacement eventually, is reasonable.  It is far from guaranteed and a variety of factors likely are part of the mix.  But the conclusion that involvement in a physical activity like TKD could lead to some kind of injury is reasonable.
> 
> Is the frequency for specifically hip replacement more prevalent in TKD than other systems that also use kicks, like karate or capoeira?  Well that kind of distinction probably does need some academic study before any conclusions can be made.



The fairest comparison would be Kyokushin. I have not heard of that art causing much kicking related surgeries at all. The famous Kyokushin guys like Andy Hug did not have surgeries that I know of. Maybe we can get some Kyokushin guy in here to let us know.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The fairest comparison would be Kyokushin. I have not heard of that art causing much kicking related surgeries at all. The famous Kyokushin guys like Andy Hug did not have surgeries that I know of. Maybe we can get some Kyokushin guy in here to let us know.


Well, anecdotal comparisons won’t mean much.  If you want to compare this in a meaningful way will require some academic approach to a systematic study.  But I am sure you can find some kyokushin folks who have had hip replacements if you look long enough.  Martial arts can lead to such injuries.  I have no doubts.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, anecdotal comparisons won’t mean much.  If you want to compare this in a meaningful way will require some academic approach to a systematic study.  But I am sure you can find some kyokushin folks who have had hip replacements if you look long enough.  Martial arts can lead to such injuries.  I have no doubts.



It would depend on the trend. If a sample is small but with extreme differences, it's probably a signficant result. So if 10 out of 10 guys get poisened by something, it's probably poisoned. And that's exactly what I experience in my TKD club.

If Kyokushin guys would struggle to even give anecdotes, this would be indicative in and of itself


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It would depend on the trend. If a sample is small but with extreme differences, it's probably a signficant result. So if 10 out of 10 guys get poisened by something, it's probably poisoned. And that's exactly what I experience in my TKD club.
> 
> If Kyokushin guys would struggle to even give anecdotes, this would be indicative in and of itself


Maybe, maybe not.  If they are all from the same school and nobody has had the hip replacement, maybe none of them have been doing it long enough to experience the injury yet.  These things tend to be gradual over time.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  If they are all from the same school and nobody has had the hip replacement, maybe none of them have been doing it long enough to experience the injury yet.  These things tend to be gradual over time.



That's why I mentioned world champions and K1 legends. It isn't my perception that they get anywhere near the same kicking related injuries and they actually go FC. It's bloody dreadful reading a TKD interview with a long-time practitioner.

Some of them have had permanent marks from the surgeries and can't kick anywhere near the same as they did before. You might even think they look below their rank had you not known about this.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's why I mentioned world champions and K1 legends. It isn't my perception that they get anywhere near the same kicking related injuries and they actually go FC. It's bloody dreadful reading a TKD interview with a long-time practitioner.
> 
> Some of them have had permanent marks from the surgeries and can't kick anywhere near the same as they did before. You might even think they look below their rank had you not known about this.


To be clear, I’m not disputing your points.  I’m just saying that making a meaningful comparison between systems might require a more rigorous examination.  But your observations in the meantime are real.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Some of them have had permanent marks from the surgeries and can't kick anywhere near the same as they did before. You might even think they look below their rank had you not known about this.


A professional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years of his life time in the ring.

If you have abused your body in your young age, you will pay your price when you get old.


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## Acronym (Jun 26, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A professional MT fighter told me that an average MT fighter only has 6 years of his life time in the ring.
> 
> If you have abused your body in your young age, you will pay your price when you get old.



That was not related to this discussion and it's clearly false. They start fighting since they were  kids and thus fight for a much longer than time than your average athletes career.


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## dvcochran (Jun 26, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What is the consensus on stretching. take days off completely or always do a little every day


I found this post in between all the bashing about anecdotal evidence, which I feel you got piled on a bit about. 
To answer your question, for the average person daily stretching is best and a linear approach works fine. For competition and more intense training I like cycling and long on/short off cycles.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What do you think about the fact that we elongate the hips with our body mechanics unlike Karatekas who tend to crunch and contract? Does it matter which way you do it for long-term health? I've heard that an entire class in Shotokan got injured from side kick lessons because they force the students this forward crunch.
> 
> See here for reference. No TKD style executes side kicks like this.
> 
> :



I don't think the methodology matters as much, but I have no studies to back me up.   Instead I think it  is like many issues athletes face.   Stress on joints due to impact, and repetition.   Individual differences abound.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 27, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's equally simple to round up 5 names who didn't.
> Me. GM Valdez. GM Kim. GM Castor. GM Lee. etc etc.


As we know there are 3 "races"   among humans(some studies now suggest a 4th. )   "Caucasoid race", "Negroid race", and  "Mongoloid race".  I read a study once of how the joint size in the Mongoloid race is proportionally larger than other races   making  them better able to withstand stress on the joints. Never checked to see if there are any statistics on joint replacement that may support this.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> As we know there are 3 "races"   among humans(some studies now suggest a 4th. )   "Caucasoid race", "Negroid race", and  "Mongoloid race".  I read a study once of how the joint size in the Mongoloid race is proportionally larger than other races   making  them better able to withstand stress on the joints. Never checked to see if there are any statistics on joint replacement that may support this.



How many of your TKD friends getting through the ranks underwent surgery? I know you all trained in suboptimal conditions but it would still be interesting data.


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> As we know there are 3 "races"   among humans(some studies now suggest a 4th. )   "Caucasoid race", "Negroid race", and  "Mongoloid race".  I read a study once of how the joint size in the Mongoloid race is proportionally larger than other races   making  them better able to withstand stress on the joints. Never checked to see if there are any statistics on joint replacement that may support this.


 theres no set of rational circumstances where there are three races, if that was ever science, rather than some social construct, its very very old science


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> theres no set of rational circumstances where there are three races, if that was ever science, rather than some social construct, its very very old science



Then why are some groups of a certain color more subject to certain types of cancer?


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Then why are some groups of a certain color more subject to certain types of cancer?


 how does that show there are three races ?

and defining race by colour is really really 1800s back before they knew what dna was, let a lone mapped the human gnome


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

Race is identified by Much more than jus color. While color may be an outward identifier there are many, many more identifiers. Mr. Weiss touched on just one of these qualities. 
No different from how we categorize things to help break down and understand them. You are literally trying to read out the logic used in understanding something.


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Race is identified by Much more than jus color. While color may be an outward identifier there are many, many more identifiers. Mr. Weiss touched on just one of these qualities.
> No different from how we categorize things to help break down and understand them. You are literally trying to read out the logic used in understanding something.


 no he clearly stated it was a fact, which would make it a fact of science which it isnt..

if he wants to perpetuate racial/ colour stereo types for ease of his own understanding, thats his affair but its not in any way a fact

any two white Europeans selected at random will probably reveal one has far more genetic similarity to north Africans than to the other white guy such has been level of mixing over the millennia. if two people of the same alleged race have so little in common genetically how can they be the same race ?


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> how does that show there are three races ?



Why would there be a difference if there is no difference?


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> no he clearly stated it was a fact, which would make it a fact of science which it isnt..
> 
> if he wants to perpetuate racial/ colour stereo types for ease of his own understanding, thats his affair but its not in any way a fact
> 
> any two white Europeans selected at random will probably reveal one has far more genetic similarity to north Africans than to the other white guy such has been level of mixing over the millennia. if two people of the same alleged race have so little in common, how can they be the same race ?


Categorically, it is a fact as we understand race today. If you are saying that saturation dissolves the defined lines between race then yes, I believe that it right. 
In a hundred years or so I imagine the landscape or race will have changed quite a lot. 

You seem to take an offense to this when all it is doing is trying to break information down into manageable pieces. Nothing more so don't let a socially driven imagination run wile.


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why would there be a difference if there is no difference?


This thread has gotten Way off topic. Was your original question(s) answered?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> As we know there are 3 "races"   among humans(some studies now suggest a 4th. )   "Caucasoid race", "Negroid race", and  "Mongoloid race".  I read a study once of how the joint size in the Mongoloid race is proportionally larger than other races   making  them better able to withstand stress on the joints. Never checked to see if there are any statistics on joint replacement that may support this.


This is not true. 
Here is a statement from the American Anthropological Society that gives some clarification on this idea.
AAA Statement on Race - Connect with AAA


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This thread has gotten Way off topic. Was your original question(s) answered?



No


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> This is not true.
> Here is a statement from the American Anthropological Society that gives some clarification on this idea.
> AAA Statement on Race - Connect with AAA



Anthrophology is not natural science.

The natural sciences do make race distinctions

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No


Reword just your original question and try again.


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> This is not true.
> Here is a statement from the American Anthropological Society that gives some clarification on this idea.
> AAA Statement on Race - Connect with AAA


See, it is articles like this which just keep stir the pot. Way too many people push the agenda that people are still conditioned to view race outwardly which is just not true for the masses. It is the loud minority that keeps driving this agenda to support their own.
Simply put, modern, forward thinkers, which are the masses of today's society, do not give two shits what color a person is. They never consider it in the course of an interaction with anyone. 
That is one very sad article that is Very, very outdated thinking. Stop, stop, stop trying to stir the pot. It is a massive waste of time.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Anthrophology is not natural science.
> 
> The natural sciences do make race distinctions
> 
> Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)


Physical anthropology is the study of the physical human.  It includes the evolution of humans as well as studying the physical body among different ethnic groups.  It is heavy on anatomy.

Read what I linked to.  It has good information about why the notion of distinct caucasoid, negroid, and mongoloid “race” categories is unsupportable.  It certainly cannot be used to claim that members on a “racial” level have larger joints.  Differences certainly occur among individuals.  But racial categories cannot be established based on this.

The Covid link to the CDC that you included begins with a statement that  “*Long-standing systemic health and social inequities have put some members of racial and ethnic minority groups at increased risk of getting COVID-19 or experiencing severe illness, regardless of age.”*

The differences found in infection rates (of Covid-19, in this example) are not due to genetic predispositions or differences of “race”.  Rather, they are due to systemic health and social inequalities.  Meaning, economic differences that often mean these people have less access to quality medical care and underlying issues like quality diet, overall stress factors that can be connected to economics and opportunity, etc.


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Physical anthropology is the study of the physical human.  It includes the evolution of humans as well as studying the physical body among different ethnic groups.  It is heavy on anatomy.
> 
> Read what I linked to.  It has good information about why the notion of distinct caucasoid, negroid, and mongoloid “race” categories is unsupportable.  It certainly cannot be used to claim that members on a “racial” level have larger joints.  Differences certainly occur among individuals.  But racial categories cannot be established based on this.
> 
> ...


And these factors are surprising to you? 
C'mon man.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The differences found in infection rates (of Covid-19, in this example) are not due to genetic predispositions or differences of “race”.  Rather, they are due to systemic health and social inequalities.  Meaning, economic differences that often mean these people have less access to quality medical care and underlying issues like quality diet, overall stress factors that can be connected to economics and opportunity, etc.



You're missing the point. They do make race denotations and it is still under investigation whether COVID-19 affect certain group of people harder irrespective of social background.


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Categorically, it is a fact as we understand race today. If you are saying that saturation dissolves the defined lines between race then yes, I believe that it right.
> In a hundred years or so I imagine the landscape or race will have changed quite a lot.
> 
> You seem to take an offense to this when all it is doing is trying to break information down into manageable pieces. Nothing more so don't let a socially driven imagination run wile.


 no as we understand race today is there isnt any, or there are 100s, its not the mixing in the world today that means this will be so, its the mixing in the past that means this is so today

people in southern  Europe have far more in common with north Africans than they do with north Europeans, to simply stick them in a racial class of white or _Caucasian_ ( a particularly american classification) is at best stupid at worse setting up a divvied where non exists for what ever reason my particular antecedence is welsh and irish which raises the question of how i ended up looking Scandinavian, them danes got around abit


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You're missing the point. They do make race denotations and it is still under investigation whether COVID-19 affect certain group of people harder irrespective of social background.


The term “race” gets used in reference to different ethnic and cultural groups.  It’s use does sometimes create confusion and probably ought to be discontinued because it is inconsistent with current scientific thinking on the topic.  It is not used in reference to the three “races” referenced earlier.

Did you read the link I posted?


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The term “race” gets used in reference to different ethnic and cultural groups.  It’s use does sometimes create confusion and probably ought to be discontinued because it is inconsistent with current scientific thinking on the topic.  It is not used in reference to the three “races” referenced earlier.
> 
> Did you read the link I posted?



As I wrote before without going into details. There are certain types of cancer that a particular "race" (call it what you want, it's just semantics) is MUCH more susceptible to. There is no two ways around this and no amount of social science extrapolations can circumvent it. If this does not satisfy a race distinction, then I don't know what does.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> As I wrote before without going into details. There are certain types of cancer that a particular "race" (call it what you want, it's just semantics) is MUCH more susceptible to. There is no two ways around this and no amount of social science extrapolations can circumvent it. If this does not satisfy a race distinction, then I don't know what does.


First, please give me an example of the cancer you are thinking of, so we can begin on the same page.

Second, there can be distinctive genetics within ethnic populations, but that too is not absolute.  There are gradations,  there is no way to draw a clear line geographically where these distinctions within the population begin and end.  People intermingle and intermarry and have children and mix all that up.  Nothing about this supports the identity of three “races” one of which has larger and more durable joints than the rest.  That is what I was commenting on.

Variations within and between ethnic groups?  Of course there are.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

[.


Flying Crane said:


> First, please give me an example of the cancer you are thinking of, so we can begin on the same page.
> 
> Second, there can be distinctive genetics within ethnic populations, but that too is not absolute.  There are gradations,  there is no way to draw a clear line geographically where these distinctions within the population begin and end.  People intermingle and intermarry and have children and mix all that up.  Nothing about this supports the identity of three “races” one of which has larger and more durable joints than the rest.  That is what I was commenting on.
> 
> Variations within and between ethnic groups?  Of course there are.



Just a fww examples. 


*Prostate Cancer Risks by Race/Ethnicity*
African American men are significantly more likely to be diagnosed with and die from prostate cancer than white men. In comparison, Asian-American and Hispanic/Latino men have a low risk. 

*Lung Cancer Risks by Race/Ethnicity*

"Most cases of lung cancer are attributed to cigarette smoke and exposure to radon and other harmful substances. Overall, the population most likely to be diagnosed with lung cancer is African American men. One might think it’s because African Americans smoke more, but that is not the case. Research suggests that white men are actually more likely to be smokers and to smoke more often than black men."

Cancer Risks by Race/Ethnicity – Regional Cancer Care Associates


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

"Differences in socioeconomic status and health care access play a key role. However, the lesser disease susceptibility of Hispanic populations with comparable life-styles and socioeconomic status as African Americans, (“_Hispanic paradox_”) points to the concomitant importance of genetic determinants"

Racial differences in cancer susceptibility and survival: More than the color of the skin?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [.
> 
> 
> Just a fww examples.
> ...


Fair enough.  The lung cancer link indicates that it is unknown why African Americans are more likely to get lung cancer, but point to social-economic reasonable as being at least part of the reason why they have higher mortality rates from it.

But your point is taken, I don’t disagree with it.  As I stated earlier, there is variation between populations.

My initial comment on this tangent was that there are no “three races” and that one of them has larger and stronger joints.  That is an outdated concept and is not in line with current scientific thought.  That was the point I intended to make.  I never intended to suggest that there is no variability found within and between ethnic groups and populations.  Is this something you would agree with?


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> As I wrote before without going into details. There are certain types of cancer that a particular "race" (call it what you want, it's just semantics) is MUCH more susceptible to. There is no two ways around this and no amount of social science extrapolations can circumvent it. If this does not satisfy a race distinction, then I don't know what does.


thays just using the amerovan  cats as races,,,

are afro american a race in their own right, ? if so, then we have already exceeded the 3 classess, if not, why is that report sugesting they are ?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> As a relatively young practitioner (30) around older practitioners with hip surgery, I get the sensation that father time is just waiting me out.
> 
> Why are TKDoins so injury prone and are there ways to medigate that? For an example, if I try to keep my weight as low as possible, will that reduce the risk of kicking related injuries?



I pracitised spinning hook kick quite a bit with shoes (by myself, in my 40's), and found that the whip action would eventually give me a sore hip.  I ended up kicking worse with my "good" leg because that's the one I liked to practise,  I had no soreness in my hip on the "bad" leg side. 

I saw the writing on the wall, and cut way back. I limit kicks to light kicks, or maybe only a dozen fast, and no more for the day. My hip feels good again, but I can't see myself in a TKD class again, where we do the same kick over and over...and over.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I pracitised spinning hook kick quite a bit with shoes (by myself, in my 40's), and found that the whip action would eventually give me a sore hip.  I ended up kicking worse with my "good" leg because that's the one I liked to practise,  I had no soreness in my hip on the "bad" leg side.
> 
> I saw the writing on the wall, and cut way back. I limit kicks to light kicks, or maybe only a dozen fast, and no more for the day. My hip feels good again, but I can't see myself in a TKD class again, where we do the same kick over and over...and over.



Spinning hook kick has been the bane of my existence. It's not the turn itself but enganging the hips with the spin at the same time and then hooking off the foot. I finally got it down. Now all that's left is to polish up the details.

I don't care what anybody says, spinning hook kick is the most difficult standing kick in TaeKwondoThere's a reason you don't see it until a 3rd Dan pattern.

So far so good for me. I don't feel a thing


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> My initial comment on this tangent was that there are no “three races” and that one of them has larger and stronger joints.  That is an outdated concept and is not in line with current scientific thought.  That was the point I intended to make.  I never intended to suggest that there is no variability found within and between ethnic groups and populations.  Is this something you would agree with?



I don't know enough to form an opinion on that. I don't see why it would be unreasonable. It has been established that certain races seem to have an in-born advantage when it comes to sprinting, to name just one thing.

I have only grown up among caucasians, and I'm one myself, and each school i ended up in, I and at most one other guy were ten times faster sprinters then everybody else. So rare was it that I even declared myself the fastest sprinter when joining a new class, like a complete douche. And then I went ahead and proved it


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't know enough to form an opinion on that. I don't see why it would be unreasonable. It has been established that certain races seem to have an in-born advantage when it comes to sprinting, to name just one thing.
> 
> I have only grown up among caucasians, and I'm one myself, and each school i ended up in, I and at most one other guy were ten times faster sprinters then everybody else. So rare was it that I even declared myself the fastest sprinter when joining a new class, like a complete douche. And then I went ahead and proved it


Ok, I think we are straying into dangerous territory here.  I guess the question I ought to ask is, did you read the anthropology piece I linked to?  

The point is, the three races bit was actually developed as a theory in the 1800s (if memory serves) and was based on the notion that these three races displayed physical traits that were identifiable within the particular race.  Traits such as cranial capacity and by extension, brain size were big deals within the theory.  As you can imagine, this theory was developed by a white guy and he claimed that the “caucasoid” race had larger cranial capacity than the others and this kind of thing was used to claim the white people were superior to the others and thereby rightfully held higher status within society, and justified slavery and such.  Of course the data was nonsense and was cherry-picked to support the desired conclusion.  It is not possible to establish races based on this kind of description, it is just unsupportable and today is recognized for the racism that it is.

Additional information about human “races” can be found here.

Biological Races in Humans

The term can be used in cultural and ethnic ways, but is meaningless biologically, when talking about humans.  When we are talking about a physical feature such as a “race” of humans having larger joints, that is talking biologically and is meaningless.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I think we are straying into dangerous territory here.  I guess the question I ought to ask is, did you read the anthropology piece I linked to?
> 
> The point is, the three races bit was actually developed as a theory in the 1800s (if memory serves) and was based on the notion that these three races displayed physical traits that were identifiable within the particular race.  Traits such as cranial capacity and by extension, brain size were big deals within the theory.  As you can imagine, this theory was developed by a white guy and he claimed that the “caucasoid” race had larger cranial capacity than the others and this kind of thing was used to claim the white people were superior to the others and thereby rightfully held higher status within society, and justified slavery and such.  Of course the data was nonsense and was cherry-picked to support the desired conclusion.  It is not possible to establish races based on this kind of description, it is just unsupportable and today is recognized for the racism that it is.
> 
> ...



It is not meaningless biologically. I linked to the Hispanic paradox. They have controlled for social factors and still found signficant differences in genes. I don't know enough about the data on anatomy to form an opinion


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It is not meaningless biologically. I linked to the Hispanic paradox. They have controlled for social factors and still found signficant differences in genes. I don't know enough about the data on anatomy to form an opinion


As I keep saying, there is genetic diversity both within populations and between population.  But that is not the same thing as saying that the “Mongoloid race” a”has larger and stronger joints than the other races, or that the “caucasoid race” has a larger cranial capacity and therefor larger brains and therefor greater intelligence, and is therefor superior to the others.

Once again, go read the two articles that I linked.  If you won’t read those, I don’t think we can continue this discussion.  I’m trying to give you a baseline education on this topic.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> As I keep saying, there is genetic diversity both within populations and between population.  But that is not the same thing as saying that the “Mongoloid race” a”has larger and stronger joints than the other races, or that the “caucasoid race” has a larger cranial capacity and therefor larger brains and therefor greater intelligence, and is therefor superior to the others.
> 
> Once again, go read the two articles that I linked.  If you won’t read those, I don’t think we can continue this discussion.  I’m trying to give you a baseline education on this topic.



I will not read social science articles. It is not science.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I will not read social science articles. It is not science.


What is your issue with anthropology?  When it comes to studying the evolution of the human body, and differences in the body across population groups, they are the science, that is their arena.

And the second article was with the NIH.

Seriously, what is the problem?


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> What is your issue with anthropology?  When it comes to studying the evolution of the human body, and differences in the body across population groups, they are the science, that is their arena.
> 
> And the second article was with the NIH.
> 
> Seriously, what is the problem?



It is agenda driven. Even The Mismeasure Of Man was too, so natural scientists aren't innocent. If the science is uncomfortable, they change the rules.

"The book received many positive reviews in the literary and popular press, but the reviews in scientific journals were, for the most part, highly critical.[4]Literary reviews praised the book for opposing racism, the concept of general intelligence, and biological determinism.[4] Reviews in scientific journals accused Gould of historical inaccuracy, unclear reasoning, and political bias.[4] "


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

"The field of metascience has revealed significant problems with the methodology of psychological research. Psychological research suffers from high bias,[203] low reproducibility,[204] and widespread misuse of statistics.[205]These finding have led to calls for reform from within and from outside the scientific community.[206]

*Confirmation bias*
In 1959, statistician Theodore Sterling examined the results of psychological studies and discovered that 97% of them supported their initial hypotheses, implying a possible publication bias.[207][208][209] Similarly, Fanelli (2010)[210] found that 91.5% of psychiatry/psychology studies confirmed the effects they were looking for, and concluded that the odds of this happening (a positive result) was around five times higher than in fields such asspace- or geosciences. Fanelli argues that this is because researchers in "softer" sciences have fewer constraints to their conscious and unconscious biases."


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It is agenda driven. Even The Mismeasure Of Man was too, so natural scientists aren't innocent. If the science is uncomfortable, they change the rules.
> 
> "The book received many positive reviews in the literary and popular press, but the reviews in scientific journals were, for the most part, highly critical.[4]Literary reviews praised the book for opposing racism, the concept of general intelligence, and biological determinism.[4] Reviews in scientific journals accused Gould of historical inaccuracy, unclear reasoning, and political bias.[4] "


What is your point with this post?  I made no reference to that book in any way.

We are talking about simple genetics.  Anthropologists have a good understanding of the topic as well as biologists.  Physical anthropology is also known as biological anthropology.


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## Acronym (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> What is your point with this post?  I made no reference to that book in any way.
> 
> We are talking about simple genetics.  Anthropologists have a good understanding of the topic as well as biologists.  Physical anthropology is also known as biological anthropology.



I just told you. A Mismeasure of man deals with anatomy in this very sensitive subject and was hammered by the scientific community, contrary to what you espoused.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I just told you. A Mismeasure of man deals with anatomy in this very sensitive subject and was hammered by the scientific community, contrary to what you espoused.


I haven’t read the book.  I don’t claim it is accurate or not accurate.  I don’t know one way or the other.  I have not pointed  to it as an authoritative source.  As I said, I haven’t read it.  The sources I linked to were the American Anthropological Society and the National Institute of Health.   

I have no idea what your message is.  Do you believe the categorization of humans into the three races of caucasoid, negroid, and mongoloid, and based on physical traits is legitimate and accurate?  How would you describe the science behind that?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2020)

Acronym said:


> "The field of metascience has revealed significant problems with the methodology of psychological research. Psychological research suffers from high bias,[203] low reproducibility,[204] and widespread misuse of statistics.[205]These finding have led to calls for reform from within and from outside the scientific community.[206]
> 
> *Confirmation bias*
> In 1959, statistician Theodore Sterling examined the results of psychological studies and discovered that 97% of them supported their initial hypotheses, implying a possible publication bias.[207][208][209] Similarly, Fanelli (2010)[210] found that 91.5% of psychiatry/psychology studies confirmed the effects they were looking for, and concluded that the odds of this happening (a positive result) was around five times higher than in fields such asspace- or geosciences. Fanelli argues that this is because researchers in "softer" sciences have fewer constraints to their conscious and unconscious biases."


What is the relevance of this?  Who brought psychology into the discussion.  It wasn’t me...


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## dvcochran (Jun 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Fair enough.  The lung cancer link indicates that it is unknown why African Americans are more likely to get lung cancer, but point to social-economic reasonable as being at least part of the reason why they have higher mortality rates from it.
> 
> But your point is taken, I don’t disagree with it.  As I stated earlier, there is variation between populations.
> 
> My initial comment on this tangent was that there are no “three races” and that one of them has larger and stronger joints.  That is an outdated concept and is not in line with current scientific thought.  That was the point I intended to make.  I never intended to suggest that there is no variability found within and between ethnic groups and populations.  Is this something you would agree with?


Look, you go schooled. Why don't you just admit you were wrong and go on. All you are doing now is mincing words and further hijacking the thread.


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## jobo (Jun 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It is not meaningless biologically. I linked to the Hispanic paradox. They have controlled for social factors and still found signficant differences in genes. I don't know enough about the data on anatomy to form an opinion


 im trying to understand what point your making , your picking up on a difference between Hispanics which are not a race and Afro Americans who are not a race and then concluding that comparing two non races means there is a difference between races


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> This is not true.
> Here is a statement from the American Anthropological Society that gives some clarification on this idea.
> AAA Statement on Race - Connect with AAA


Good article - Some relevant points:
" It does not reflect a consensus of all members of the AAA, as individuals vary in their approaches to the study of "race."


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't care what anybody says, spinning hook kick is the most difficult standing kick in TaeKwondoThere's a reason you don't see it until a 3rd Dan pattern.


IMO the most difficult of the standing kicks to do well is the side Piercing kick.   If this can be done well, all other kicks will come more easily.


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## jobo (Jun 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I just told you. A Mismeasure of man deals with anatomy in this very sensitive subject and was hammered by the scientific community, contrary to what you espoused.


 it was hammered by the scientific community for not having much science in it. that really how the scientific community and peer review works

the press liked it because it agreed with their narrative, which was a different narrative 40 years ago than it is today

thats rather how the press work, ignore data that doesn't agree with your view

the subject of that book, which intelligence and race is a thorny one, which has been prone to massive cultural biases over the centuries.

 it should be noted that it wasnt just alleged differences dependent skin colour he was pointing out, he was making significant claim that  some European populations had significant cognitive issues as well, he was particularly  picking out that the Russians and Hungarians were ''simple minded'' which fitted the  RR anti communist doctrinaire and the Italians, i suspect the bias in this arises from the nature of immigration in to america in the early part of the 20th century, were it was largely the poor and therefore very ill educated, who are therefore likely to do badly in iq tests, the same issues applies to various other american population, including the stereo type that hill billies are simple minded,,, no just dirt poor

i think its fair to say that the Russians and Italians are by no means backwards, that then then throws doubt on each and every other claim he made as not being scientific


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## Acronym (Jun 28, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> IMO the most difficult of the standing kicks to do well is the side Piercing kick.   If this can be done well, all other kicks will come more easily.



From the back leg or lead leg?


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 28, 2020)

Acronym said:


> From the back leg or lead leg?


The Side piercing kick is the most difficult basic kick to do well from either the lead or rear leg.   
However, by definition, reverse turning and Reverse Hook in the Chang Hon system are only done from the rear leg, turning rearward.    Lead leg, and rear leg turning forward variations are used, but not in the text. .


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 28, 2020)

To All:

1. I hope all are aware that no insult was intended by my by my "3 Races" comment vis a vis relative joint size. 
2. I never intended for the statement to be exclusive or ll encompassing i.e. Everyone in a group has  a certain characteristic. Ii is indisputable that variations abound. 
3. I Thank Jobo for additional information and will not engage in any search engine results debate and will leave it for others in the forum to review information already linked to as well as do their own research.


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## dvcochran (Jun 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> im trying to understand what point your making , your picking up on a difference between Hispanics which are not a race and Afro Americans who are not a race and then concluding that comparing two non races means there is a difference between races


I have been trying to understand your point on race. You seem to be going out of your way to claim 'we are all the same' which is just ludicrous. If for not other reason than centuries of conditioning races are different. 
As I mentioned earlier, as society continues to stabilize worldwide blending will continue until saturation. But as a planet we are a Long way from that. 
The creativity and innovation that comes out of our differences is part of what formed our society. That is a good thing. It is not always pretty but you are living a Polly-anna life if you do not think it is necessary.


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## jobo (Jun 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I have been trying to understand your point on race. You seem to be going out of your way to claim 'we are all the same' which is just ludicrous. If for not other reason than centuries of conditioning races are different.
> As I mentioned earlier, as society continues to stabilize worldwide blending will continue until saturation. But as a planet we are a Long way from that.
> The creativity and innovation that comes out of our differences is part of what formed our society. That is a good thing. It is not always pretty but you are living a Polly-anna life if you do not think it is necessary.


, no there massive diversity  across the globe, but that diversity doesnt stop at national borders, unless there a physical barrier, like the Atlantic in the way, and then that only gets in the way up until the point that someone invents ship than can cross

there is a gradual change in people appearance as you cross continents and from one continent to another. that makes it impossible to say one race ends here and another one starts there

if you take only the slightest genetic change, which is skin pigmentation and say, this is one race and this is another, then what about all the people who have varring skin tones in the middle

a journey from say Scandinavian to southern African will see a slow transition of skin tone on your journey, so how many races are you saying there are on that journey,, one, two, three 100 ?.

there notable differences in skin tone and body type between Afro american? and east Africans, as there are between east Africans and west Africans are they the same race or not ?  if so why, if not why in much the same way as i can identify those who come from the med from those who come from the Slavic countries,,, different race or not, but then i can generally pick white Australians out from a crowd of locals,, they look different ?

a lot of this is to do with the political determination of race in individual counties rather than there being any deterministic scientific point of change

in this country there a move to consider the Irish welsh and Scottish as different races, they are covered by the race relations act.. in american they would just get lumped together as white or European or caurcasion, so we have 4 more races than you before we even start splitting the enormousness variations there are across Europe and Asia. . in the uk the term Asian is almost exclusively used to denote those who ancestors come from the Indian sub continent, every one else is denoted by there country of origin and nobody accept Russians as being Asian


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## dvcochran (Jun 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> , no there massive diversity  across the globe, but that diversity doesnt stop at national borders, unless there a physical barrier, like the Atlantic in the way, and then that only gets in the way up until the point that someone invents ship than can cross
> 
> there is a gradual change in people appearance as you cross continents and from one continent to another. that makes it impossible to say one race ends here and another one starts there
> 
> ...


Yep, you are exactly right. But you are fixated on skin tone. All 'white' people are not the same shade. Within the course of a year my skin tone changes quite a lot (at least on my arms and torso) as I am out in the sun. 
Like I said earlier, it is much less about skin tone and more about other identifiable factors. There have been a few good posts about cancer rates in various races. I am sure this information is a huge benefit in the medical field. And it took decades/centuries to determine that particular trend. 
I always have to scratch my head when I see people take a word such as "label" the wrong way to fit some misguided agenda.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2020)

@Acronym ive got to be honest: I felt @Dirty Dog responded unfairly negatively to your early posts.


Earl Weiss said:


> To All:
> 
> 1. I hope all are aware that no insult was intended by my by my "3 Races" comment vis a vis relative joint size.
> 2. I never intended for the statement to be exclusive or ll encompassing i.e. Everyone in a group has  a certain characteristic. Ii is indisputable that variations abound.
> 3. I Thank Jobo for additional information and will not engage in any search engine results debate and will leave it for others in the forum to review information already linked to as well as do their own research.


i never believed your comment had any racist motivation and I was reluctant to bring up that particular point because I didn’t want anyone to take it as as accusation.  I appreciate the follow-up as well.


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## jobo (Jun 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yep, you are exactly right. But you are fixated on skin tone. All 'white' people are not the same shade. Within the course of a year my skin tone changes quite a lot (at least on my arms and torso) as I am out in the sun.
> Like I said earlier, it is much less about skin tone and more about other identifiable factors. There have been a few good posts about cancer rates in various races. I am sure this information is a huge benefit in the medical field. And it took decades/centuries to determine that particular trend.
> I always have to scratch my head when I see people take a word such as "label" the wrong way to fit some misguided agenda.


ok if we take skin tone out whats the other defining factors used to declare what race you pne is, , body type also changes progesibly, facial features change progresivly,  EVERY THING THAT CHANGES, CHANGRS PROGRESSIVELY,   every ewhere it seems, but the usa,and how many races do you think there are, by name would be n


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## dvcochran (Jun 28, 2020)

jobo said:


> ok if we take skin tone out whats the other defining factors used to declare what race you pne is, , body type also changes progesibly, facial features change progresivly,  EVERY THING THAT CHANGES, CHANGRS PROGRESSIVELY,   every ewhere it seems, but the usa,and how many races do you think there are, by name would be n


Um, yes I guess?


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## Grenadier (Jun 29, 2020)

*Admin's Note:*

If you want to discuss the topic of Tae Kwon Do and Hip Surgery Prevalence, then please feel free to do so in this thread.  

If you want to discuss tendencies of different races to have different ailments, then please take it to the Study in a non-political manner.  

If you want to talk about race politics, there are other forums hosted by Forum Foundry that do allow such discussions in a civil manner, such as the one linked here.

That being said, please return to the original topic.


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## skribs (Jun 29, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm guessing you don't know very many then. Because I know bunches who have not. I'd like to see your research comparing the rate of occurrence for TKD practitioners and the general population.


He has to know at least a thousand, based on his statistics.


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## PhilE (Jun 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> As a relatively young practitioner (30) around older practitioners with hip surgery, I get the sensation that father time is just waiting me out.
> 
> Why are TKDoins so injury prone and are there ways to medigate that? For an example, if I try to keep my weight as low as possible, will that reduce the risk of kicking related injuries?




We're all going to get wear and tear as we get older, the key is to minimize it.  There are many different factors in this.  Without being able to see specifically what you are doing, I'd say aim to relax as much as possible between each technique.  Not relax as go floppy and stop breathing, but the way a cat does before its about to strike or pounce.

Take care not to hyper extend you joints.  If there is a hyper extension going on, this is reflective of excess tension and muscular imbalance in the whole body.  That will eventually cause injury.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 29, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> The Side piercing kick is the most difficult basic kick to do well from either the lead or rear leg.
> However, by definition, reverse turning and Reverse Hook in the Chang Hon system are only done from the rear leg, turning rearward.    Lead leg, and rear leg turning forward variations are used, but not in the text. .



I once said to a talented young Korean master who had majored in TKD at university, "I read once that you can judge someone's TKD based on their side kick". He agreed.


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## Acronym (Jun 30, 2020)

PhilE said:


> We're all going to get wear and tear as we get older, the key is to minimize it.  There are many different factors in this.  Without being able to see specifically what you are doing, I'd say aim to relax as much as possible between each technique.  Not relax as go floppy and stop breathing, but the way a cat does before its about to strike or pounce.
> 
> Take care not to hyper extend you joints.  If there is a hyper extension going on, this is reflective of excess tension and muscular imbalance in the whole body.  That will eventually cause injury.



I'm not flexible enough to really hyperextend anyway.


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## Acronym (Jun 30, 2020)

Maybe stretching during class causes a lot of these problems..

1:19 says that stretching actually increases your  resistance to injury prior to explosive movement. So what you need is warm-ups before, not stretching. Most MA classes do both.

instead, stretching should be done completely separate.


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## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Maybe stretching during class causes a lot of these problems..
> 
> 1:19 says that stretching actually increases your  resistance to injury prior to explosive movement. So what you need is warm-ups before, not stretching. Most MA classes do both.
> 
> instead, stretching should be done completely separate.


I do not disagree with that. I do think the bigger injury factor is simply not getting warmed up first. We dynamic stretch at the beginning of class and static stretch at the end of class for this reason.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

i meant to say that stretching followed by explosive movement decreases resistance to injury, even though it might seem paradoxical


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> i meant to say that stretching followed by explosive movement decreases resistance to injury, even though it might seem paradoxical



Not paradoxical if you consider that extensive stretching will lead to muscle fatigue immediately after the stretch. Muscles help stabilize joints and fatigued muscles will not do this as well leading to over extension.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not paradoxical if you consider that extensive stretching will lead to muscle fatigue immediately after the stretch. Muscles help stabilize joints and fatigued muscles will not do this as well leading to over extension.



That's why I don't do them throughly in class since they can be fatiguing. 

I think most laypeople would assume a non stretched person is at greater risk of pulling a muscle than a stretched person.


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I do not disagree with that. I do think the bigger injury factor is simply not getting warmed up first. We dynamic stretch at the beginning of class and static stretch at the end of class for this reason.



Not sure it’s good after class either, if it's been rough.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's why I don't do them throughly in class since they can be fatiguing.
> 
> I think most laypeople would assume a non stretched person is at greater risk of pulling a muscle than a stretched person.


we are struggling for definition here, stretching messes up your nervous system making inter muscle co ordination more difficult and thus you more at risk of injury, warming a muscle by moving it though its NORMAL range of motion and consequently filling it with fresh blood tends to stop injury, where one becomes the other is a difficult point to define


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## Acronym (Jul 1, 2020)

jobo said:


> we are struggling for definition here, stretching messes up your nervous system making inter muscle co ordination more difficult and thus you more at risk of injury, warming a muscle by moving it though its NORMAL range of motion and consequently filling it with fresh blood tends to stop injury, where one becomes the other is a difficult point to define



Yeah I know. Even kicking moderately warm is perfectly fine. It also depends day to day. Some days you feel stiffer than others.


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## dvcochran (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not sure it’s good after class either, if it's been rough.


Then how/when do we improve on things like range of motion? 
Back in the day we definitely did it wrong but I do not attribute my bad knees and such purely to the stretching component.  
I feel our body is an incredible machine that can be trained and condition to more IF we do it smartly and safely. 
Like Jobo mentioned, get warmed up and get the blood flowing. This in and of itself is different from person to person. I have to Really get a sweat going before my muscles relax enough to get a good stretch. On the other side of the spectrum are the teens and 20 somethings who can walk in and do a full split without thinking about it. 
So a person has to listen to and learn from their body. Then make a safe, logical plan and stick to it. The easiest and safest path is dynamic stretching/warmups at the start and if you want/need some extra stretching, static after.


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## dvcochran (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not sure it’s good after class either, if it's been rough.


After class you should be finished with everything that may cause hyper-extension.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'm not flexible enough to really hyperextend anyway.



Everyone is flexible enough to hyperextend.  If you stretch past the point where your body is flexible enough to tolerate, that's a hyper-extension.  I've pulled my groin more than a few times doing side kicks.  And I'm not nearly as flexible as some.



Acronym said:


> 1:19 says that stretching actually increases your resistance to injury prior to explosive movement. So what you need is warm-ups before, not stretching. Most MA classes do both.




What most classes do before class is technically static stretching, but seems more dynamic to me.  Most classes have you go just beyond the level of comfort, and hold for only 10-20 seconds.  Where I think it's dangerous before class is if you're really forcing the stretch, or if you hold static stretch poses for extended lengths of time (30 seconds, 1 minute, etc).  I've heard more people complain of injury when they don't stretch at all than if they do.


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## skribs (Jul 1, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not paradoxical if you consider that *extensive *stretching will lead to muscle fatigue *immediately *after the stretch. Muscles help stabilize joints and fatigued muscles will not do this as well leading to over extension.


I think these are the key words.  Extensive stretching (not the moderate amount that most do).  And immediately after.  If you do extensive stretching, and then a warmup of moderate dynamic stretches or basic movements, then it gives your muscles time to recover.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> If you do extensive stretching, and then a warmup of moderate dynamic stretches or basic movements, then it gives your muscles time to recover.



That is all a matter of degree. How Fatigued? How much time to recover from that fatigue etc.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> That is all a matter of degree. How Fatigued? How much time to recover from that fatigue etc.



We do basics/patterns for a good 10-15 minutes after stretching before moving on to explosive movements. I still think the stretching is misplaced though.


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## skribs (Jul 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> That is all a matter of degree. How Fatigued? How much time to recover from that fatigue etc.


I agree. I just think this blanket "all TKD schools are stretching wrong" attitude that I see a lot is people who took that information out of context.

At my school, we have had several doctors get their black belts, several more who've had kids get black belts, even more nurses. My nephew took classes for a year, and my sister and brother-in-law met when they were at school for sports medicine.

We also have had former professional dancers at our school, one who specializes in teaching stretching.

Not a single one of those medical professionals nor dancers has criticized our stretching habits.

Yet I see time and time again online that if you stretch before class, you're going to injure yourself.  

This rant isn't directed towards you.  Sorry if you got an earful of crossfire.


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## Acronym (Jul 2, 2020)

The video I posted said stretching period


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