# Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?



## Hanzou

I recently came across this article in another thread;

 I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au

In the article, a young woman was almost sexually assaulted by a male attacker. Girl had practiced Karate for 15 years, and fought back against her attacker after he pinned her to the ground and started taking her clothes off. Eventually, someone heard her screaming, and the attacker fled. The woman had a head wound, and some bruised ribs.

Now there's some interesting details that bothered me about this story;

1. The girl struck her attacker several times, but wasn't able to stop the attack.
2. She ended up on the ground after being surprised from behind. 

While I applaud her warrior spirit, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if a third party hadn't intervened. I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if she knew some ground fighting/grappling.


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## Steve

Grappling/ground fighting is critical.  I don't think it's the only thing they need to know, but a purple belt (or at least an experienced blue belt) in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction.  That goes for anyone, really..


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## Tony Dismukes

Obviously I'm a big believer in grappling as a fundamental self-defense skill. That said, being sucker punched from behind by a bigger, stronger opponent is a bad situation all around. I'm not going to say the young lady would have done better if she had trained in this art or that art.

Grappling is important. Striking is important. I don't think it's helpful to try to argue about which is better.


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## Danny T

I espouse to be proficient in fighting situations one needs situational awareness, standing defense and counter attacking (striking and clinching), tripping and takedowns (countering of the same), and fighting on the ground as well as being able to strike while on the ground and finally weapon defenses - standing and on the ground. Within the weapon aspects blunt object, impact, bladed, and firearms.


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## Hanzou

Steve said:


> Grappling/ground fighting is critical.  I don't think it's the only thing they need to know, but a purple belt (or at least an experienced blue belt) in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction.  That goes for anyone, really..





Tony Dismukes said:


> Obviously I'm a big believer in grappling as a fundamental self-defense skill. That said, being sucker punched from behind by a bigger, stronger opponent is a bad situation all around. I'm not going to say the young lady would have done better if she had trained in this art or that art.
> 
> Grappling is important. Striking is important. I don't think it's helpful to try to argue about which is better.



I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.



Contrary to what the Gracies said, size does have an impact when it comes to grappling.

Trying to get your legs around a much larger guy is difficult, especially if hes large enough to just keep forcing them down.

Shrimping and scrambling is more difficult,

While once a tech is set, its typically all technique and requires little strength. But getting to that point at a massive size and strength difference, isnt an easy feat.

Even gracies have had trouble and had to do things like hair pull

That said we also have to remember your average joe/jan practicing BJJ isnt as good as a gracie.

She could have had years of BJJ training, and still not have been able to run something simply by being massively over powered.

This isnt a knock on grappling or saying striking is alone more effective,  it really isnt as cut and dry like that.

Awareness is one of the biggest things Talked about in SD classes for good reason.

Many rapes, attacks, etc. Happen from behind with no warning. 

Whether youre striking or grappling, if the attacker takes your back you're in a world of hurt. When that person in significantly larger than you, its no simple task to get to a better position.


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Contrary to what the Gracies said, size does have an impact when it comes to grappling.
> 
> Trying to get your legs around a much larger guy is difficult, especially if hes large enough to just keep forcing them down.



Which is why there's open guards, sweeps from guard, and chokes from guard.



> Shrimping and scrambling is more difficult, While once a tech is set, its typically all technique and requires little strength. But getting to that point at a massive size and strength difference, isnt an easy feat.



And she would have had years of experience shrimping, scrambling, and grappling against larger opponents.



> That said we also have to remember your average joe/jan practicing BJJ isnt as good as a gracie.



Well we have plenty of examples of non-Gracie females. using grappling in self defense situations. If she had spent 15 years in a grappling art, she would no doubt be highly proficient, considering that she appears to be a very dedicated martial artists. You don't need to be a Gracie to be proficient in a grappling art.



> She could have had years of BJJ training, and still not have been able to run something simply by being massively over powered.



And as I said earlier, she would have had years of training against larger, stronger opponents, so she would have been used to the size difference. Many Bjj/MMA/Grappling gyms tend to be loaded with males of all shapes and sizes. An excellent cross section for a female to practice grappling against a larger assailant.



> Awareness is one of the biggest things Talked about in SD classes for good reason.
> 
> Many rapes, attacks, etc. Happen from behind with no warning.
> 
> Whether youre striking or grappling, if the attacker takes your back you're in a world of hurt. When that person in significantly larger than you, its no simple task to get to a better position.



No argument there. In this case she was also attacked from behind, and she ended up on the ground fighting for her life.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Which is why there's open guards, sweeps from guard, and chokes from guard.
> 
> 
> 
> And she would have had years of experience shrimping, scrambling, and grappling against larger opponents.
> 
> 
> 
> Well we have plenty of examples of non-Gracie females. using grappling in self defense situations. If she had spent 15 years in a grappling art, she would no doubt be highly proficient, considering that she appears to be a very dedicated martial artists. You don't need to be a Gracie to be proficient in a grappling art.
> 
> 
> 
> And as I said earlier, she would have had years of training against larger, stronger opponents, so she would have been used to the size difference. Many Bjj/MMA/Grappling gyms tend to be loaded with males of all shapes and sizes. An excellent cross section for a female to practice grappling against a larger assailant.
> 
> 
> 
> No argument there. In this case she was also attacked from behind, and she ended up on the ground fighting for her life.



While you made excellent points that we cant contest it doesnt change the fact that if theres I significant size/strength difference it can become impossible to do anything.

Theres still a limit, its not just a matter of being used to it.

IF jans 100 pounds and Johns 250, if he gets on top he can shut down anything.

He can pin her legs, hold her arms down, etc.

While there are a myriad of things one can usually do from guard, in a situation like the australian girls, she could have been incapable of doing anything even with regular BJJ training.

Its not really a matter of familiarity.

I wrestled 132 for 3 years and have been working in submission grappling for about 7 now. I fI roll with our old heavyweight whose a blue belt, I really cant go to my guard. With such a massive size/strength difference, guard becomes a danger zone.

As it could have been in her case.

Again this isnt to say grappling is an ineffecitve method, but just like striking its a pros/cons debate, making it difficult to say which one would really be most effective taught alone.


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> While you made excellent points that we cant contest it doesnt change the fact that if theres I significant size/strength difference it can become impossible to do anything.
> 
> Theres still a limit, its not just a matter of being used to it.
> 
> IF jans 100 pounds and Johns 250, if he gets on top he can shut down anything.
> 
> He can pin her legs, hold her arms down, etc.



I don't agree.

Let's say Jan spent 15 years in Bjj like this aussie girl spent in Karate, she would be a black belt in Bjj at this point if she attended classes on a regular, or even semi-regular basis. In that span of time, she's no doubt gone up against opponents in the size range you describe, who also happen to be highly skilled grapplers. Now, when you have a size differential of that magnitude, Jan is clearly at a disadvantage, and more than likely would get shut down much in the manner you describe.... at first. If she's smart, she would roll with guys that size over and over again until she developed strategies that worked in her favor. And again, those strategies would work in her favor against a much larger opponent who is also a skilled grappler. Why wouldn't those same strategies work against a much larger opponent who *isn't* a skilled grappler?

I have seen sub- 150lb grapplers tap out guys 250+. It's not that uncommon, especially if the lighter person is higher skilled, and/or has better cardio. It's not quite the size difference you describe, but its extremely close.

I would also say that someone of that small weight would have spent their entire Bjj career going up against people larger than themselves. If they've made it all the way to black, a size difference wouldn't be a new experience for them.



> While there are a myriad of things one can usually do from guard, in a situation like the australian girls, she could have been incapable of doing anything even with regular BJJ training.
> 
> Its not really a matter of familiarity.



She was on her back and had enough of her senses to hit the assailant in the groin multiple times and hit him in the face multiple times. How is the guard a liability here? The guard is designed specifically for exactly that situation.



> I wrestled 132 for 3 years and have been working in submission grappling for about 7 now. I fI roll with our old heavyweight whose a blue belt, I really cant go to my guard. With such a massive size/strength difference, guard becomes a danger zone.
> 
> As it could have been in her case.



Which makes sense because your typical blue belt should know how to pass a guard, especially if they have a significant weight advantage. You can't really compare that to an untrained assailant going up against a highly proficient grappler.



> Again this isnt to say grappling is an ineffecitve method, but just like striking its a pros/cons debate, making it difficult to say which one would really be most effective taught alone.



Well, weight and size is a disadvantage for women in striking as well. I would argue that grappling does a better job of bridging that gap than striking. However, I would never tell a female practitioner to avoid striking altogether.


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## Flying Crane

Hanzou got creative with his interpretation of the article.

She successfully defended herself.  End of story.

Would bjj have been more helpful for her?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

Do we all need bjj to be able to defend ourselves?  Nope.  Would it be useful?  Yes if you are interested in training it.  No,  you are not interested in training it.

Looks to me like another thinly veiled attempt to tell us all that what he does is the best.  It's tiresome.


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## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Hanzou got creative with his interpretation of the article.
> 
> She successfully defended herself.  End of story.
> 
> Would bjj have been more helpful for her?  Maybe.  Maybe not.
> 
> Do we all need bjj to be able to defend ourselves?  Nope.  Would it be useful?  Yes if you are interested in training it.  No,  you are not interested in training it.
> 
> Looks to me like another thinly veiled attempt to tell us all that what he does is the best.  It's tiresome.



I didn't get "creative" at all. I simply studied the details.

1. She has spent 15 years in martial arts, and holds an advanced rank in Karate.
2. She ended up on the ground.
3. Her strikes against his groin and face were ineffective in ending the confrontation.
4. A third party intervened because of her screams, which allowed her to escape.

This thread is based off of those facts.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> Let's say Jan spent 15 years in Bjj like this aussie girl spent in Karate, she would be a black belt in Bjj at this point if she attended classes on a regular, or even semi-regular basis. In that span of time, she's no doubt gone up against opponents in the size range you describe, who also happen to be highly skilled grapplers. Now, when you have a size differential of that magnitude, Jan is clearly at a disadvantage, and more than likely would get shut down much in the manner you describe.... at first. If she's smart, she would roll with guys that size over and over again until she developed strategies that worked in her favor. And again, those strategies would work in her favor against a much larger opponent who is also a skilled grappler. Why wouldn't those same strategies work against a much larger opponent who *isn't* a skilled grappler?
> 
> I have seen sub- 150lb grapplers tap out guys 250+. It's not that uncommon, especially if the lighter person is higher skilled, and/or has better cardio. It's not quite that size difference, but its extremely close.
> 
> 
> 
> She was on her back and had enough of her senses to hit the assailant in the groin multiple times and hit him in the face multiple times. How is the guard a liability here? The guard is designed specifically for exactly that situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes sense because your typical blue belt should know how to pass a guard, especially if they have a significant weight advantage. You can't really compare that to an untrained assailant going up against a highly proficient grappler.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, weight and size is a disadvantage for women in striking as well. I would argue that grappling does a better job of bridging that gap than striking. However, I would never tell a female practitioner to avoid striking altogether.




Again, all it takes for a larger person to shut down even a trained Jiu jitiero is to muscle his way to pinning down their arms and/or legs (depending on the size discrepancy here, he may not need to)

A good example is the royce Akebono fight. Royce really couldnt get anything with his arms or do anything. If Akebono would have paid attention to royces legs he wouldnt have gotten the omoplata that led to akebonos demise. Even once he got one leg over he had difficulty getting it.

Even an untrained oaf is going to keep pushing or blocking legs if theyre in his way.

It isnt a matter of my friend passing my guard, because of the sheer size and strength difference, its hard to effectively use legs when someones so much larger that I cant lock my legs up, or even get my legs up his massive torso without being at the right angle. 

The sheer size/strength difference gives him control of my upper body from my guard and all it takes is for him to keep tabs on my legs. 

A massive size difference in SD striking is a simple matter of evasion until you can leave. an untrained 250 pounder wont be quicker or faster than a trained 100 pounder,

But in grappling, that 100 pounder is in more danger of being hit ( assuming it isnt a quick submission) because you're right there.

There was a video on here waaaaaaay back when of a big ol' drunk fat guy trying to attack a couple bouncers. He was swinging massive wild haymakers and all the bouncers did was step out of the way. 

Stand up SD isnt all about getting the KO, its about getting out.


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## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I didn't get "creative" at all. I simply studied the details.
> 
> 1. She has spent 15 years in martial arts, and holds an advanced rank in Karate.
> 2. She ended up on the ground.
> 3. Her strikes against his groin and face were ineffective in ending the confrontation.
> 4. A third party intervened because of her screams, which allowed her to escape.
> 
> This thread is based off of those facts.


Wrong again.  I too read the article.  She bloodied him.  I'm sure you too would have appreciated some assistance in such a circumstance.

She successfully defended herself, after being blind-sided.  That's a tough situation for anybody


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Again, all it takes for a larger person to shut down even a trained Jiu jitiero is to muscle his way to pinning down their arms and/or legs (depending on the size discrepancy here, he may not need to)
> 
> A good example is the royce Akebono fight. Royce really couldnt get anything with his arms or do anything. If Akebono would have paid attention to royces legs he wouldnt have gotten the omoplata that led to akebonos demise. Even once he got one leg over he had difficulty getting it.



So how exactly is that a good example to prove your point? Akebono is a trained grappler, and outweighed Royce by hundreds of pounds, yet Royce still subbed him in a matter of minutes.



> Even an untrained oaf is going to keep pushing or blocking legs if theyre in his way.



And anyone trained in Bjj would be used to someone pushing or blocking their legs and responding accordingly. Especially someone who is always fighting at a heavy weight/strength disadvantage.

That's the benefit of rolling.



> It isnt a matter of my friend passing my guard, because of the sheer size and strength difference, its hard to effectively use legs when someones so much larger that I cant lock my legs up, or even get my legs up his massive torso without being at the right angle.



Try an open guard instead of a closed guard. Of course an open guard is harder to defend with than a closed guard, but if you can't properly utilize a closed guard, then you need to make the switch. Also are you actively practicing Bjj or just dabbling in it? If its the latter, it doesn't matter what you do because he's in a bjj academy learning how to utilize and break guards, and you're just messing around with them. If its the former, discuss your issues with your instructor. He'll probably also tell you to start learning and utilizing open guards.



> A massive size difference in SD striking is a simple matter of evasion until you can leave. an untrained 250 pounder wont be quicker or faster than a trained 100 pounder,



And as was the case in this situation, the strikes were largely ineffective. Frankly, a 150 lb person trading blows with a 250 lb person seems like suicide. They're are football players who are 250lb, and they're not slow people by any stretch of the imagination.



> But in grappling, that 100 pounder is in more danger of being hit ( assuming it isnt a quick submission) because you're right there.
> 
> There was a video on here waaaaaaay back when of a big ol' drunk fat guy trying to attack a couple bouncers. He was swinging massive wild haymakers and all the bouncers did was step out of the way.
> 
> Stand up SD isnt all about getting the KO, its about getting out.



That's great, but I'm not seeing the relevance to this discussion, especially since this girl wasn't standing up.


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## elder999

Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?
*No.*

While I've posted in the past about how women should have grappling training-even noting that learning to fight from the guard (exactly where a rapist wants to be) is good training, a woman should also learn how to do damage by striking-and clawing-her attackers.


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## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Wrong again.  I too read the article.  She bloodied him.  I'm sure you too would have appreciated some assistance in such a circumstance.



Yes, she did bloody him, but that didn't end the assault.

And I'm sure anyone would have liked some assistance in that situation. However, if that assistance isn't coming, you better have some more tools in your kit than ineffective body blows.from a bad position.



> She successfully defended herself, after being blind-sided.  That's a tough situation for anybody



If that assault would have continued, could we make that argument? Again, someone else entered the situation and forced the assailant to flee, it wasn't her punches or kicks.


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## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?
> *No.*
> 
> While I've posted in the past about how women should have grappling training-even noting that learning to fight from the guard (exactly where a rapist wants to be) is good training, a woman should also learn how to do damage by striking-and clawing-her attackers.



It should be noted that plenty of women know how to claw or kick groins without any training at all.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> So how exactly is that a good example to prove your point? Akebono is a trained grappler, and outweighed Royce by hundreds of pounds, yet Royce still subbed him in a matter of minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> And anyone trained in Bjj would be used to someone pushing or blocking their legs and responding accordingly. Especially someone who is always fighting at a heavy weight/strength disadvantage.
> 
> That's the benefit of rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> Try an open guard instead of a closed guard. Of course an open guard is harder to defend with than a closed guard, but if you can properly utilize a closed guard, then you need to make the switch. Also are you actively practicing Bjj or just dabbling in it? If its the latter, it doesn't matter what you do because he's in a bjj academy learning how to utilize and break guards, and you're just messing around with them. If its the former, discuss your issues with your instructor. He'll probably also tell you to start learning and utilizing open guards.
> 
> 
> 
> And as was the case in this situation, the strikes were largely ineffective. Frankly, a 150 lb person trading blows with a 250 lb person seems like suicide. They're are football players who are 250lb, and they're not slow people by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> That's great, but I'm not seeing the relevance to this discussion, especially since this girl wasn't standing up.



Its relevant to my point because the size diffference was waht was really stopping royce, if you watch the match Akebono wasnt doing much more than laying there.

Again, used to it or not, if im 200 pounds heavier pinning down your leg it isnt going to slide out.

Open guard wouldnt make much of a difference. Im not sure if youre not reading the explanation of what a massively larger person can do or Im not explaining well enough. Whether open or closed, the size/strength difference in that position is in his favor. His sheer upper body overpowers mine, letting him put more attention to watching my legs, which because of the sheer width of his torso/shoulders are already at a disadvantage for throwing one over or evern getting them out to push away.

My training is more submission wrestling than Gracie BJJ like his. We have very similar training. We've had several similar instructors and coaches, and roll with many of the same Purple and Brown Belts, but I've been rolling longer and roll more often.

He rolls once a week at the schools formal class, whereas I roll anywhere from 2-4 times a week with most of the same guys, just outside of the formal class. Although, I get invited to open mat fairly often and go if I can.

Ultimately, I've had more instructions from higher belts, coaches, instructors, etc. than he has, but dont attend the same formal class due to scheduling conflicts.

Again, SD Striking isnt trading blows, I said that before as have several people on this site.

Show me an average 250 pound joe who can run a 40 like a linebacker.

And it was relevant to explain SD Striking, and to explain the point that one isnt inherently more effective than the other (grappling or striking)

Its all situational pros/cons.

I can usually beat my Blue Belt heavyweight partner, but not from guard.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> It should be noted that plenty of women know how to claw or kick groins without any training at all.



It should also be noted that plenty of folks know how to choke without any training either


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## Tony Dismukes

Yeah, the woman had not managed to finish off her attacker with striking before he fled.

If she had been a grappling specialist, there's no guarantee she would have been able to finish him off with a choke or jointlock before he fled either.

Would it have been beneficial for her to have ground grappling experience? Absolutely! If nothing else, it would have greatly improved her ability to escape from the bottom and get back to her feet. That doesn't mean that grappling is better than striking. It's just another reason why it's good to have both in your toolbox.


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## Steve

Size and strength matter.  But suggesting that technique cannot overcome them is ridiculous.  It's aboht goals.  Can a 130 lbs blue belt submit a 250 lbs body builder?   Maybe not.   But certainly, she could create enough space to disengage, return to her feet and flee.


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Its relevant to my point because the size diffference was waht was really stopping royce, if you watch the match Akebono wasnt doing much more than laying there.



Royce subbed an experienced grappler with a significant weight advantage in under 3 minutes in the first round.

Again, I'm not seeing your point here. Royce was the more skilled grappler, and that allowed him to overcome the size/strength disadvantage.



> Again, used to it or not, if im 200 pounds heavier pinning down your leg it isnt going to slide out.



If you're used to a heavier opponent pinning down your leg, wouldn't you have developed some counters to that pin?



> Open guard wouldnt make much of a difference



Okay, first you told me that you're not able to lock your legs around his torso, or move them up his back due to his size. Now you're  saying that  guards designed specifically for that scenario wouldn't make much of a difference?



> Im not sure if youre not reading the explanation of what a massively larger person can do or Im not explaining well enough. Whether open or closed, the size/strength difference in that position is in his favor. His sheer upper body overpowers mine, letting him put more attention to watching my legs, which because of the sheer width of his torso/shoulders are already at a disadvantage for throwing one over or evern getting them out to push away.



There's been innumerable situations where a guy with a massive upper body advantage has been controlled in an open or closed guard. I think the issue you're having is a skill issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Also you can't really compare a Bjj blue belt who is specifically trained to break guards to an untrained assailant.

In short, your friend is passing your guards because he is trained, not because he's big.



> Again, SD Striking isnt trading blows, I said that before as have several people on this site.
> 
> Show me an average 250 pound joe who can run a 40 like a linebacker.



That wasn't my point. My point was that a 250lb person isn't always a big slow open target, and a 150lb string bean isn't always generating power like Bruce Lee.




> And it was relevant to explain SD Striking, and to explain the point that one isnt inherently more effective than the other (grappling or striking)



For someone who is weaker or weighs less, I'm not so sure.



Drose427 said:


> It should also be noted that plenty of folks know how to choke without any training either



You can't get a good choke until you get a good position to choke.


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## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Yes, she did bloody him, but that didn't end the assault.
> 
> And I'm sure anyone would have liked some assistance in that situation. However, if that assistance isn't coming, you better have some more tools in your kit than ineffective body blows.from a bad position.
> 
> 
> 
> If that assault would have continued, could we make that argument? Again, someone else entered the situation and forced the assailant to flee, it wasn't her punches or kicks.


Of course there are unknowns and might-have-beens and what-ifs.  None of that matters because what's done is done.  You believe that if her training had included bjj, it would have been a slam dunk?  It would have removed all the unknowns?   Rediculous.

But it's you, so I shouldn't be surprised.


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## elder999

Steve said:


> Size and strength matter.  But suggesting that technique cannot overcome them is ridiculous.  It's aboht goals..


 

"Technique" _includes_ *strikes*.


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## Hanzou

[





Flying Crane said:


> Of course there are unknowns and might-have-beens and what-ifs.  None of that matters because what's done is done.  You believe that if her training had included bjj, it would have been a slam dunk?  It would have removed all the unknowns?   Rediculous.



Slam dunk?  No.

In a better general position to escape or subdue her assailant? Absolutely.


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## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> [
> 
> Slam dunk?  No.
> 
> In a better general position to escape or subdue her assailant? Absolutely.


Except when it isn't.  Those are the unknowns and such.


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## Jenna

She is a karate practitioner surprised from behind and being taken to the ground

She could have equally been a grappling expert sucker punched in the head

The fault here is not in her style and but instead the fault is in her lacking awareness that she was so remiss or complacent about her safety that someone was able to do this to her before she knew any thing of it.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Royce subbed an experienced grappler with a significant weight advantage in under 3 minutes in the first round.
> 
> Again, I'm not seeing your point here. Royce was the more skilled grappler, and that allowed him to overcome the size/strength disadvantage.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're used to a heavier opponent pinning down your leg, wouldn't you have developed some counters to that pin?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, first you told me that you're not able to lock your legs around his torso, or move them up his back due to his size. Now you're  saying that  guards designed specifically for that scenario wouldn't make much of a difference?
> 
> 
> 
> There's been innumerable situations where a guy with a massive upper body advantage has been controlled in an open or closed guard. I think the issue you're having is a skill issue. Nothing more, nothing less. Also you can't really compare a Bjj blue belt who is specifically trained to break guards to an untrained assailant.
> 
> In short, your friend is passing your guards because he is trained, not because he's big.
> 
> 
> 
> That wasn't my point. My point was that a 250lb person isn't always a big slow open target, and a 150lb string bean isn't always generating power like Bruce Lee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For someone who is weaker or weighs less, I'm not so sure.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't get a good choke until you get a good position to choke.



Again, you arent reading my explanation

He isnt passing at all, he knows from that position he can pin me to the point its almost impossible to shrimp, control my hands through muscling and keep track of my legs preventing me from bring them in to create space.


again, an open guard wouldnt make much of a difference here since I cant usually get my legs in to push him away and create space or set up something like an armbar. I could at most get my foot over his shoulder, but without being able to wiggle enough to create the angle its pointless because I couldnt run something from it and even if I got a hand free and pulled on it like royce, it really isnt tight enough to do much.

I DO have a strategy for him,

Use my speed advantage to fight the outside of for the back, i.e. outside singles, duck under, slideby if he tries to come in, and fight for subs from the back. Which works pretty regularly because he simply cant keep up, with  my speed or experience to adapt. I.e. the other night I was going for the belly down armbar, didnt work fast enough so I immediately threw the leg over while rotating and holding the arm so it went into proper position, and landed the omoplata.

If he does get in my guard, its a race. I've subbed him with collar choke a couple times. But if he can get ahold and start muscling, my chances are slim.

Again, you seem to have this idea of trading strikes like a boxing match for SD.

Thats not whats taught at all.

You're right, but while youre getting into that poition, you run the risk of being in more danger by going straight to the guy trying to hurt you.

Stand up SD (basically every striking styles sd), is getting out of the way, striking if you have to, leaving if you can.

How many times in boxing has someone been knocked out by a counter hook in that EXACT situation?

Again my point isnt that grappling is inferior,

but to say ones inherently more effective for SD isnt quite true.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> [
> 
> Slam dunk?  No.
> 
> In a better general position to escape or subdue her assailant? Absolutely.



Because being underneath the fist of someone larger than you a better position to escape...


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Except when it isn't.  Those are the unknowns and such.



Not in this particular case. She's knocked to the ground with the assailant on top of her. In that case, knowing ground fighting puts you in a better position than not knowing ground fighting.


----------



## Hanzou

Jenna said:


> She is a karate practitioner surprised from behind and being taken to the ground
> 
> She could have equally been a grappling expert sucker punched in the head
> 
> The fault here is not in her style and but instead the fault is in her lacking awareness that she was so remiss or complacent about her safety that someone was able to do this to her before she knew any thing of it.



I disagree. Her training didn't give her the tools necessary to get out of that situation without outside assistance.

What if she had been a grappler who got suckered punched in the head? Then what? The assailant gets on top of her and places her in pretty much exactly the same position that she regularly trains in? I'd personally would rather be the grappler in that scenario, wouldn't you?


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Again, you arent reading my explanation
> 
> He isnt passing at all, he knows from that position he can pin me to the point its almost impossible to shrimp, control my hands through muscling and keep track of my legs preventing me from bring them in to create space.
> 
> 
> again, an open guard wouldnt make much of a difference here since I cant usually get my legs in to push him away and create space or set up something like an armbar. I could at most get my foot over his shoulder, but without being able to wiggle enough to create the angle its pointless because I couldnt run something from it and even if I got a hand free and pulled on it like royce, it really isnt tight enough to do much.
> 
> I DO have a strategy for him,
> 
> Use my speed advantage to fight the outside of for the back, i.e. outside singles, duck under, slideby if he tries to come in, and fight for subs from the back. Which works pretty regularly because he simply cant keep up, with  my speed or experience to adapt. I.e. the other night I was going for the belly down armbar, didnt work fast enough so I immediately threw the leg over while rotating and holding the arm so it went into proper position, and landed the omoplata.
> 
> If he does get in my guard, its a race. I've subbed him with collar choke a couple times. But if he can get ahold and start muscling, my chances are slim.



So is your argument here that the guard is ineffective against a super-strong opponent?

You know that's nonsense right?



> Again, you seem to have this idea of trading strikes like a boxing match for SD.
> 
> Thats not whats taught at all.



I understand that that's not what's taught. However, that's what ends up happening when your strikes aren't effecting the target you're trying to take down.



> You're right, but while youre getting into that poition, you run the risk of being in more danger by going straight to the guy trying to hurt you.
> 
> Stand up SD (basically every striking styles sd), is getting out of the way, striking if you have to, leaving if you can.



Okay, but in this situation, she wasn't standing up, she was on her back.



> How many times in boxing has someone been knocked out by a counter hook in that EXACT situation?
> 
> Again my point isnt that grappling is inferior,
> 
> but to say ones inherently more effective for SD isnt quite true.



I'm saying that one's inherently more effective for weaker/lighter practitioners, like women.



> Because being underneath the fist of someone larger than you a better position to escape...



If you've been trained how to escape when underneath the fist of someone larger than you, then yes you're in a better position to escape that situation than someone has hasn't been.


----------



## drop bear

If we were to suggest grappling would be useful. Wouldn't we go for something like folk wrestling where you stand back up?

But otherwise I am not sure why people just don't do both.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> So is your argument here that the guard is ineffective against a super-strong opponent?
> 
> You know that's nonsense right?
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that that's not what's taught. However, that's what ends up happening when your strikes aren't effecting the target you're trying to take down.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but in this situation, she wasn't standing up, she was on her back.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying that one's inherently more effective for weaker/lighter practitioners, like women.
> 
> 
> 
> If you've been trained how to escape when underneath the fist of someone larger than you, then yes you're in a better position to escape that situation than someone has hasn't been.



No that wasnt my point, but whatever

no, it really isnt what happens. You can find a million videos of bouncers, boxers, etc just getting out of the way and leaving, or hitting one or two times to stop the assailant from coming in anymore then backing off.

Ok but your thread is target SD classes, not just this young ladys incident.

and again, no not really.

And heres the issue with your last point,

I've trained at 5 different BJJ schools in my time studying grappling.

Including Matt Bryers video on his post here, I've seen 2 schools or gyms that have their BJJ guys do any kind of drill prepping them for someone physically striking them.

This is everything from Gracie schools to MMA gyms.

Unless theyre BJJ guys are competing in MMA or taking the MMA class, it isnt something I've ever regularly seen outside of a Relson Gracie school where the head instructor is an ex cop.

While I've done more Newaza at open mats, grappling schools/classes, etc. I've done more drills of getting up from someone wailing on me at SD seminars and my TSD class.

Simply training BJJ doesnt give you that training anymore than simply going to a Krav Class makes you a soldier.


----------



## drop bear

Jenna said:


> She is a karate practitioner surprised from behind and being taken to the ground
> 
> She could have equally been a grappling expert sucker punched in the head
> 
> The fault here is not in her style and but instead the fault is in her lacking awareness that she was so remiss or complacent about her safety that someone was able to do this to her before she knew any thing of it.



Even that is a tricky call. I don't think people get routinely jumped enough to know how delicate awareness as a sd really is.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> Even that is a tricky call. I don't think people get routinely jumped enough to know how delicate awareness as a sd really is.



it really isnt that difficult to be continuously aware

Anyone with a drivers liscense does it enough tto develop it as a skill

People just dont tend to keep track of everything like they do when they drive in other situations. 

They just dont think and shut that awareness off


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> No that wasnt my point, but whatever
> 
> no, it really isnt what happens. You can find a million videos of bouncers, boxers, etc just getting out of the way and leaving, or hitting one or two times to stop the assailant from coming in anymore then backing off.
> 
> Ok but your thread is target SD classes, not just this young ladys incident.
> 
> and again, no not really.
> 
> And heres the issue with your last point,
> 
> I've trained at 5 different BJJ schools in my time studying grappling.
> 
> Including Matt Bryers video on his post here, I've seen 2 schools or gyms that have their BJJ guys do any kind of drill prepping them for someone physically striking them.
> 
> This is everything from Gracie schools to MMA gyms.
> 
> Unless theyre BJJ guys are competing in MMA or taking the MMA class, it isnt something I've ever regularly seen outside of a Relson Gracie school where the head instructor is an ex cop.
> 
> While I've done more Newaza at open mats, grappling schools/classes, etc. I've done more drills of getting up from someone wailing on me at SD seminars and my TSD class.
> 
> Simply training BJJ doesnt give you that training anymore than simply going to a Krav Class makes you a soldier.



The whole methodology behind Bjj is that your goal is to achieve a dominant position. Everything else is secondary. For example, its pretty easy to punch someone when you're sitting on their chest with your knees in their armpits, or while on their back with their chest to the ground. Its easy to get a shoulder lock in side control, or a choke from the modified mount. A sweep from guard to mount is better than an attempt to submit from guard. 

So while Bjj doesn't directly teach strikes, its ingrained in pretty short order that if you have the dominant position, you can do pretty much anything you want. Position before submission as they say.

That's the way it should be anyway....


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> "Technique" _includes_ *strikes*.


Lol. Didn't meant to imply otherwise.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> The whole methodology behind Bjj is that your goal is to achieve a dominant position. Everything else is secondary. For example, its pretty easy to punch someone when you're sitting on their chest with your knees in their armpits, or while on their back with their chest to the ground. Its easy to get a shoulder lock in side control, or a choke from the modified mount. A sweep from guard to mount is better than an attempt to submit from guard.
> 
> So while Bjj doesn't directly teach strikes, its ingrained in pretty short order that if you have the dominant position, you can do pretty much anything you want. Position before submission as they say.
> 
> That's the way it should be anyway....



Annnnnnnd the whole methodology of striking arts are to first and foremost, get to the side and out of the way of the punch.......then do whatever you need to. 


and sprawl, squirm, shove off if they try to grapple.

Again, getting to a better position is great and should be the goal.

But those 5 seconds its taken you squirm out from guard to a better position,

Big bobs hit you in 3 bombs.

When maybe, you shouldnt have tried to to grapple him in the first place.

You should have side stepped, or slipped( if you had the skill) threw a counter hook, then yelled for help, ran, or (if necessary,) hit him with a push kick to knock him the rest of the way back/down so you could get away.

On the flip side, 

Maybe bob doesnt punch, he spears you

Now youre down and have no choice but to grapple cause you cant strike, but you have nowhere to go if he strikes, but here grappling is the only option.

One side of the spectrum is effective, but will still have a hole where the other should be


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Annnnnnnd the whole methodology of striking arts are to first and foremost, get to the side and out of the way of the punch.......then do whatever you need to.
> 
> 
> and sprawl, squirm, shove off if they try to grapple.



You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles? I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.



> Again, getting to a better position is great and should be the goal.
> 
> But those 5 seconds its taken you squirm out from guard to a better position,
> 
> Big bobs hit you in 3 bombs.



Something you should be used to encountering if you attended a reputable grappling gym.



> When maybe, you shouldnt have tried to to grapple him in the first place.
> 
> You should have side stepped, or slipped( if you had the skill) threw a counter hook, then yelled for help, ran, or (if necessary,) hit him with a push kick to knock him the rest of the way back/down so you could get away.



Except when you get blindsided and wind up on your back like this young lady.



> On the flip side,
> 
> Maybe bob doesnt punch, he spears you
> 
> Now youre down and have no choice but to grapple cause you cant strike, but you have nowhere to go if he strikes, but here grappling is the only option.
> 
> One side of the spectrum is effective, but will still have a hole where the other should be



And I would still argue that who don't know how to grapple have the bigger hole, since most people know how to naturally claw, pull hair, bite, slap, or kick someone in the groin.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Not in this particular case. She's knocked to the ground with the assailant on top of her. In that case, knowing ground fighting puts you in a better position than not knowing ground fighting.


Except when it doesn't.  The unknowns and such.


----------



## Steve

Does anyone here think that learning some ground fighting skills is a bad idea?


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles? I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.
> 
> 
> 
> Something you should be used to encountering if you attended a reputable grappling gym.
> 
> 
> 
> Except when you get blindsided and wind up on your back like this young lady.
> 
> 
> 
> And I would still argue that who don't know how to grapple have the bigger hole, since most people know how to naturally claw, pull hair, bite, slap, or kick someone in the groin.




lol we never see asian styles emphasize geting out of the way of the punch?





 3:34





 first part of nearly every move





 1:54 he demonstrating strikes going from the outside of the attack.





 Silver gloves does it all match





 at 3:00 he steps out for a sweep

You keep saying that, but again, I've been to quite a few schools and met many many grapplers, 2 of which have strong ties to gracies (ones a relson academy) and very, very few never did it. The only ones who had any kind of grappling training against a ground and pound where the guys who competed in MMA.

A grappling style wouldnt have stopped her from being blindsided. If he wanted to kill instead of rape, he couldve, even if she was an 20 degree Grappling mega style master.

On that same note, 

A LOT of basic wrestling is natural. You dont need training to:
1. Handfight defensively
2. Sprawl
3. Scramble
4. Stuff (I.e. rabbit punch or stiff arm)
5. Choke
6. Restrain
7. Squirm similar to shrimping

Now your next point will probably be "Nuh uh!" (which isnt true, hop on to youtube and watch bar/street fights, you'll see nearly everyone of those things from dang near everyone)

After that you'll probably say "Well that isnt effective striking anyways!"
Then again, neither is the "striking" you mentioned....thats why those are the last resort moves. Nobody teaches those as the first line of defense bub XD


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> Does anyone here think that learning some ground fighting skills is a bad idea?



No, we've all said quite a few times the only way to really be effective is to have both in your arsenal!


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> it really isnt that difficult to be continuously aware
> 
> Anyone with a drivers liscense does it enough tto develop it as a skill
> 
> People just dont tend to keep track of everything like they do when they drive in other situations.
> 
> They just dont think and shut that awareness off



Challenge your friends to slice your throat with a nico pen for five buck a successful go over the next week.

And then come back to me about how consciously aware we all are.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> Challenge your friends to slice your throat with a nico pen for five buck a successful go over the next week.
> 
> And then come back to me about how consciously aware we all are.




Every summer we play "assassin" with ink and water. No safe zones.

Awareness isnt difficult.

If you do it when you drive,

you can do it when you walk.

People do it every single day in places like detroit, or any major city with rough neighborhoods.

Again, if youre able to keep track of all the other cars around you, pedestrians, signs, cones, crap in the road, etc.

You can keep track of where people are when you're walking XD


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> Challenge your friends to slice your throat with a nico pen for five buck a successful go over the next week.
> 
> And then come back to me about how consciously aware we all are.



To continue my other point,

If youre assuming im saying awareness is the magic method youre not paying attention

Thats just the first line of defense.

You can still be mugged. 

But your chances are a lot better when you didnt get snuck up on


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> To continue my other point,
> 
> If youre assuming im saying awareness is the magic method youre not paying attention
> 
> Thats just the first line of defense.
> 
> You can still be mugged.
> 
> But your chances are a lot better when you didnt get snuck up on



Most people treat it as such. And never test it.

As part of my job where people have been known to jump out at me or hide from me. I am a bit suspect to rely on it so much


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> Most people treat it as such. And never test it.
> 
> As part of my job where people have been known to jump out at me or hide from me. I am a bit suspect to rely on it so much



What is your line of work? 

I had thought you were a bouncer

Trying to keep tabs on the troublemakers while keeping an eye open on the rest of the bar was one of the first things I was told, although It was a short term thing for me to help pay for college, so Im not claiming thats something widely taught


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> What is your line of work?
> 
> I had thought you were a bouncer
> 
> Trying to keep tabs on the troublemakers while keeping an eye open on the rest of the bar was one of the first things I was told, although It was a short term thing for me to help pay for college, so Im not claiming thats something widely taught



Yeah bouncer,patrol man. Pretty much everything security. And yes awareness is exactly what I am employing.

And why I hold the effectiveness of it a bit suspect.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> Yeah bouncer,patrol man. Pretty much everything security. And yes awareness is exactly what I am employing.
> 
> And why I hold the effectiveness of it a bit suspect.



Like I said, it isnt infalliable.

Cops, soldiers, forget to check corners sometimes and miss an assailiant/enemy

People forget to look and pull out into traffic.

But, fighting (be it SD or sport or whatever else) is a game of odds, pros, and cons.

If theres something you can do to give yourself better odds, you should imo


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> No, we've all said quite a few times the only way to really be effective is to have both in your arsenal!


Thank goodness.   Based in the back and forth, I can't see it.   

On another note, I think it's great how you give people credit for awareness when they drive.


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> Thank goodness.   Based in the back and forth, I can't see it.
> 
> On another note, I think it's great how you give people credit for awareness when they drive.



I think to many people stressing awareness make it sound like something that takes years of dedication and discipline, when our brains are totally hardwired for it already!

Making that connection makes a light bulb go off in peoples head in my experience


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> I think to many people stressing awareness make it sound like something that takes years of dedication and discipline, when our brains are totally hardwired for it already!
> 
> Making that connection makes a light bulb go off in peoples head in my experience


I would say most people are on auto pilot while they drive.  Add dis tractors, like cell phones, and I challenge you to find 1 out of 10 drivers who are active and aware at all times while behind the wheel. M


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> I would say most people are on auto pilot while they drive.  Add dis tractors, like cell phones, and I challenge you to find 1 out of 10 drivers who are active and aware at all times while behind the wheel. M



Maybe, but that just means keeping tabs on all those things has become natural.

If people werent keeping tabs, there roads would be far more dangerous then they already are.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles? I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.


But then you haven't seen much outside of your own little world have you? Aikido is off the line, Goju is off the line or are you including these in your 'modern' styles?


----------



## Flying Crane

Drose427 said:


> No, we've all said quite a few times the only way to really be effective is to have both in your arsenal!


I do not agree with this statement.  You can be absolutely effective, you can defend yourself quite handily without training in a grappling system.  

It's not a bad idea to do so, but it is not essential.


----------



## Steve

Drose427 said:


> Maybe, but that just means keeping tabs on all those things has become natural.
> 
> If people werent keeping tabs, there roads would be far more dangerous then they already are.


i really think you're jumping to an unsupportable conclusion here.


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> I do not agree with this statement.  You can be absolutely effective, you can defend yourself quite handily without training in a grappling system.
> 
> It's not a bad idea to do so, but it is not essential.


And it's also possible to defend yourself quite handily with no striking training.  Heck, it's possible to defend yourself without training at all.  Doesn't mean it's a good idea.   

And I'd say that there's a difference between something being a good idea, and not being a bad idea.  Training in grappling p is more than just "not a bad idea.'   I'd say it's a downright good idea to do so.


----------



## Flying Crane

Steve said:


> And it's also possible to defend yourself quite handily with no striking training.  Heck, it's possible to defend yourself without training at all.  Doesn't mean it's a good idea.
> 
> And I'd say that there's a difference between something being a good idea, and not being a bad idea.  Training in grappling p is more than just "not a bad idea.'   I'd say it's a downright good idea to do so.


I understand that is why you train it.  I do not.  I have no interest in it.  I'm not concerned by that.

Anyone who is interested in it, ought to train it.  Anyone who is not interested in it should not buy into the hype that it is absolutely essential.  It is not.


----------



## Drose427

Steve said:


> i really think you're jumping to an unsupportable conclusion here.



Everyday when you drive, do you:
Stop at stop signs
Catch when a light is turning
pay attention to whos pulling out/in
Pay attention to those in front, whose riding your bumper, and whos trying to pass
read road signs 


You're paying attention to multiple things at once,

its the same thing thing as:

glancing at dark alleys ( avoudung them if you can)
Paying attention to whos around you and where they are

The former is actually more to keep track of then the latter.

Its the same process of being aware of what happening around you


----------



## Drose427

Flying Crane said:


> I do not agree with this statement.  You can be absolutely effective, you can defend yourself quite handily without training in a grappling system.
> 
> It's not a bad idea to do so, but it is not essential.



And I respect your opinion and experiences.

But I personally feel that (for SD anyways) you should pursue all facets, and avoid running the risk of needing the training and not having it


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> lol we never see asian styles emphasize geting out of the way of the punch?
> 
> 3:34
> first part of nearly every move
> 1:54 he demonstrating strikes going from the outside of the attack.
> Silver gloves does it all match
> at 3:00 he steps out for a sweep



All of those save the competitive match were demonstrations. The competitive match looked more like kickboxing than the traditional karate fighting style. Outside of demonstrations, those same styles look like this;














Where's the side stepping to avoid the punch? Looks like straight up brawling.



> You keep saying that, but again, I've been to quite a few schools and met many many grapplers, 2 of which have strong ties to gracies (ones a relson academy) and very, very few never did it. The only ones who had any kind of grappling training against a ground and pound where the guys who competed in MMA.



I keep saying it because its fundamental Bjj;










And frankly, if you're learning Bjj you should know how to grapple while being punched. If that means cross training with MMA guys, then that's what you do.



> A grappling style wouldnt have stopped her from being blindsided. If he wanted to kill instead of rape, he couldve, even if she was an 20 degree Grappling mega style master.



I seriously doubt that. Again, you're talking about someone who would have had decades of mat experience rolling with men of various sizes and ability, against someone who more than likely has no way to counter anything she's doing. I've rolled with female Bjj black belts, they're some of the most technical practitioners around because they can't rely on strength to prevail.



> On that same note,
> 
> A LOT of basic wrestling is natural. You dont need training to:
> 1. Handfight defensively
> 2. Sprawl
> 3. Scramble
> 4. Stuff (I.e. rabbit punch or stiff arm)
> 5. Choke
> 6. Restrain
> 7. Squirm similar to shrimping



Except there's a difference; I don't need training to learn how knock someone out with a punch. I definitely need training to learn how to fight off my back, and sweep a larger opponent into an inferior position.



> After that you'll probably say "Well that isnt effective striking anyways!"
> Then again, neither is the "striking" you mentioned....thats why those are the *last resort moves*. Nobody teaches those as the first line of defense bub XD



Ah, so that explains why the karate girl in the article was resorting to groin kicks?

Interesting.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> But then you haven't seen much outside of your own little world have you? Aikido is off the line, Goju is off the line or are you including these in your 'modern' styles?








Again, where's the side stepping?


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> All of those save the competitive match were demonstrations. The competitive match looked more like kickboxing than the traditional karate fighting style. Outside of demonstrations, those same styles look like this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the side stepping to avoid the punch? Looks like straight up brawling.
> 
> 
> 
> I keep saying it because its fundamental Bjj;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And frankly, if you're learning Bjj you should know how to grapple while being punched. If that means cross training with MMA guys, then that's what you do.
> 
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt that. Again, you're talking about someone who would have had decades of mat experience rolling with men of various sizes and ability, against someone who more than likely has no way to counter anything she's doing. I've rolled with female Bjj black belts, they're some of the most technical practitioners around because they can't rely on strength to prevail.
> 
> 
> 
> Except there's a difference; I don't need training to learn how knock someone out with a punch. I definitely need training to learn how to fight off my back, and sweep a larger opponent into an inferior position.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so that explains why the karate girl in the article was resorting to groin kicks?
> 
> Interesting.



Lol 2 out of 3 of those vids HAD sidesteppikng and circling.......

NOt to mention kickboxing comes from Karate sparring.....

Again, if its fundamental to BJJ, why arent Gracie schools (one of which RElson visits a few times a year) not implementing it?

Again, if theyre cross training in MMA theyre getting striking training, which just furthers my point.

And yes he could have pretty easy considering he blindsided her.

If he wanted to kill her, he could have stabbed her, hit her with a weapon etc. Neither striking or grappling training prevents you from being blindsided, no training would have applied if he would have taken that chance to kill her instead.

and again, you dont need grappling training for very basic wrestling, regardless of size. Youtube is full of school.street fights where both the striking and grappling technique is horrendous, but they still use basic skills like squirming/scrambling out or ugly headlock chokes.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> I didn't get "creative" at all. I simply studied the details.
> 
> 1. She has spent 15 years in martial arts, and holds an advanced rank in Karate.
> 2. She ended up on the ground.
> 3. Her strikes against his groin and face were ineffective in ending the confrontation.
> 4. A third party intervened because of her screams, which allowed her to escape.
> 
> This thread is based off of those facts.


Like most of your posts, they contain half truths to suit what you are pushing.
1. As far as I'm aware she is a Shodan, not an advanced rank.
2. She was taken to the ground but ended up back on her feet.
3. Her strikes to his groin and face were effective as she was about to do more when he ran away.
4. The third party intervened and he ran away possibly saving him for additional injury. The third party intervention did not enable her to escape.

So much for your _facts_ ...

I think there are a lot of assumptions in this discussion. What we know is that this lady has practised karate for 15 years. That means that she started as a young girl of 10. To me that doesn't really count in anything except learning basics. As an adult she has probably been training closer to 7 years and if she hasn't done a fair amount of floor work in that time I would be surprised. By floor work I am not talking submissions, I'm talking escaping from the ground. If you watch the video you will see her practising close quarter work so to say she needed to have grappling skills is implying she doesn't have them which is demonstrably false.

Perhaps we could look at this ....

_Ms Davis has a black belt and came fourth in the Junior World Championships in 2007.
_
_She trains_ _in Dandenong at Shukokai Karate with Sensei Ennio Ans, who is incredibly proud of his student.

“When I test students for their black belts we have a survival test that involves the student being unexpectedly attacked by another club member with a black belt,” Mr Ans said.

“They have 90 seconds to break free and get away. This training is what Taela used to escape a real-life attack.”_

So what do we know? Well she was attacked from behind and punched. Did that indicate a lack of awareness? Well she was against all advice wearing headphones.

_“I was walking through a cutting near McClelland Drive about 2.30pm when it happened,” she said.

“I had my earphones in and didn’t know he was there until he threw me to the ground.”

Ms Davis said the man then “spun” her on to her back and started to pull at her clothing.
_
( No Cookies Herald Sun )

Oops! There's a dojo doesn't teach self defence or a young lady who has ignored the message that police here have been heavilly promoting for months because of similar attacks on young women. Don't go walking with headphones!

So far it would not matter what martial art she practised. So she was taken to the ground suffering broken ribs. That is possibly from knees to the back as she was taken down or a knee to the chest as the attacker tried to subdue her. So what did she do next?
_
“I thought, ‘No, this is not going to happen’, and after checking that he didn’t have a weapon, I started to fight back.

“I hit him in the ribs with my knee and punched him in the face as hard as I could.

“I think I broke his nose.”

But the blow didn’t deter the man, who Ms Davis believes was drug-affected.

“He had blood running down his face and his eyes watered a bit but it didn’t stop him.”

Ms Davis said she tried to run away but her attacker grabbed her by her ankle and pulled her back on to the ground.

“I knew then that I’d have to beat the crap out of him.”

At that point a passer-by intervened.

“A man came around the corner into the cutting and yelled, ‘What’s going on?’

“That was the first time the man attacking me stopped. He looked a bit panicked and then ran away.”_

Hmm! He was drug affected. Ask any of the LEOs if that makes a difference ...


Yet another source ...

_Using her defensive training, Taela told Neil Mitchell she thrashed about to get her arms and legs free._

_She managed to knee him in his side but when she got up to run away, he grabbed her again._

_"Then I realised I would have to try and hurt him so he would leave me alone," she said._

_"I spun my body around and punched him in the face, kicked him in the groin and the ribs and headbutting him in the face._

_"Even though it has affected me, I think he ended up coming out of it more hurt."_

She got up to run away so her ground skills were enough to do that. Then she started fighting back. Not a bad effort when her attacker was six foot tall and she is quite small.

_At just 52 kilos and much smaller than her attacker, she believes the fight may have left him with a broken nose._

_"I am definitely happy it was someone like myself who had the training behind me to fight him off," she said.

"I know it could have ended very differently for me if I didn't have the training I had."
_
( Karate champ Taela Davis fights off thug in disturbing daylight assault )

We know that she was yelling for help and a guy came to her aid. The attacker fled before he got there. She was grateful for his intervention but it was her skills were that saved her. Notice she doesn't say, "Gee I wish I'd done MMA instead!"

So we end up again debating MMA vs TMA. How could I have foreseen that happening?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.


To me, the ground grappling is like an octopus wraps on a fish. Can women be big and powerful enough to wrap a man on the ground?


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Lol 2 out of 3 of those vids HAD sidesteppikng and circling.......



Please show where in those vids someone purposely sidestepped a punch.

That was your original argument; Sidestepping to avoid a punch, and countering. In those vids, the practitioners just slapped each other silly. There was no slipping or side stepping, just two bodies clashing into each other and swinging their arms wildly.



> NOt to mention kickboxing comes from Karate sparring.....



Actually kickboxing comes form muay thai, at least among the Japanese; 



> On December 20, 1959, a Muay Thai among Thai fighters was held at _Tokyo Asakusa town hall_ in Japan. Tatsuo Yamada, who established "_Nihon Kempo Karate-do_", was interested in Muay Thai because he wanted to perform karate matches with full-contact rules since practitioners are not allowed to hit each other directly in karate matches. At this time, it was unimaginable to hit each other in karate matches in Japan. He had already announced his plan which was named _"The draft principles of project of establishment of a new sport and its industrialization"_ in November, 1959, and he proposed the tentative name of "karate-boxing" for this new sport.[12] It is still unknown whether Thai fighters were invited by Yamada, but it is clear that Yamada was the only karateka who was really interested in Muay Thai. Yamada invited a Thai fighter who was the champion of Muay Thai (and formerly his son Kan Yamada's sparring partner), and started studying Muay Thai. At this time, the Thai fighter was taken by Osamu Noguchi who was a promoter of boxing and was also interested in Muay Thai.[13][14] The Thai fighter's photo was on the magazine "The Primer of Nihon Kempo Karate-do, the first number" which was published by Yamada.



Kickboxing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



> Again, if its fundamental to BJJ, why arent Gracie schools (one of which RElson visits a few times a year) not implementing it?



I don't know, that's something that should be discussed with the instructor of the school. The Relson school I learned from taught them. The Rickson school I attended after that also taught them. Royce's school in Hartford from which that video I linked is based out of teaches them. Rorian's sons also teach them.

Of course you did say that you only visited two Gracie schools....



> Again, if theyre cross training in MMA theyre getting striking training, which just furthers my point.



Okay, but MY point is that Bjj guys will cross-train in MMA if they feel that they need more striking training, or to fill out holes in their game. Considering that there are Bjj schools out there that only teach ground fighting, I can understand that.



> And yes he could have pretty easy considering he blindsided her.
> 
> If he wanted to kill her, he could have stabbed her, hit her with a weapon etc. Neither striking or grappling training prevents you from being blindsided, no training would have applied if he would have taken that chance to kill her instead.



Okay, but I'm talking about what actually occurred, not hypotheticals.



> and again, you dont need grappling training for very basic wrestling, regardless of size. Youtube is full of school.street fights where both the striking and grappling technique is horrendous, but they still use basic skills like squirming/scrambling out or ugly headlock chokes.



And such basic wrestling lacks the benefits of formal grappling training. A woman with basic wrestling skills isn't going to be able to get a larger person off of her. Such as was the case with this woman in Australia.

A woman with a high level of training in grappling can get a larger person off of her.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Again, where's the side stepping?


Nothing like the Goju I practise. Are you sure it's not a sport style of Goju?


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Please show where in those vids someone purposely sidestepped a punch.
> 
> That was your original argument; Sidestepping to avoid a punch, and countering. In those vids, the practitioners just slapped each other silly. There was no slipping or side stepping, just two bodies clashing into each other and swinging their arms wildly.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually kickboxing comes form muay thai, at least among the Japanese;
> 
> 
> 
> Kickboxing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, that's something that should be discussed with the instructor of the school. The Relson school I learned from taught them. The Rickson school I attended after that also taught them. Royce's school in Hartford from which that video I linked is based out of teaches them. Rorian's sons also teach them.
> 
> Of course you did say that you only visited two Gracie schools....
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but MY point is that Bjj guys will cross-train in MMA if they feel that they need more striking training, or to fill out holes in their game. Considering that there are Bjj schools out there that only teach ground fighting, I can understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but I'm talking about what actually occurred, not hypotheticals.
> 
> 
> 
> And such basic wrestling lacks the benefits of formal grappling training. A woman with basic wrestling skills isn't going to be able to get a larger person off of her. Such as was the case with this woman in Australia.
> 
> A woman with a high level of training in grappling can get a larger person off of her.



Your entire thread is based on your Obsession with proving BJJ is all you need and hypotheticals...

And as K-man said, she defended herself fine without grappling training.

Did you even read the Wiki?

I was founded by a Karate practitioner, who wanted to spar Full Contact....

Later another Karate practitioner took out the clinching and Elbows.....

From the article: " The main techniques of kickboxing is still derived from Japanese full contact karate (Ilyushin)"

Yes, two schools that are regularly visited throughout the year by Relson and the BJJ students had never done the drill.....and all the others Ive been to (though not as closely tied to the gracies) didnt do those drills either. If you do great!

But assuming all BJJ schools do is naive


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To me, the ground grappling is like an octopus wraps on a fish. Can women be big and powerful enough to wrap a man on the ground?



You think you need to be big and powerful? 

Watch how fast this girl got this guy to tap;


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> I understand that is why you train it.  I do not.  I have no interest in it.  I'm not concerned by that.
> 
> Anyone who is interested in it, ought to train it.  Anyone who is not interested in it should not buy into the hype that it is absolutely essential.  It is not.


Whoa.  You have no idea why I train.  

And there is a difference between something being a good idea and something being essential.  No training is essential.   You keep trying to reframe my statements so they're more extreme.  I don't appreciate it.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Your entire thread is based on your Obsession with proving BJJ is all you need and hypotheticals...



Its asking a question. Your point is irrelevant nonsense, since if the assailant would have blindsided her and then shanked her to death, nothing she did or possibly did would have mattered.



> And as K-man said, she defended herself fine without grappling training.



I read the first account, I wasn't aware of the second account where the story slightly changed. Either way, you had he getting taken to the ground, her getting off the ground, and then taken back to the ground again. I don't know how Kman figures that the third party's intervention didn't end the confrontation. Both articles made it pretty clear that it did.



> Did you even read the Wiki?



Did you? It very clearly says that the Japanese adapted it from Muay Thai kickboxing.



> Yes, two schools that are regularly visited throughout the year by Relson and the BJJ students had never done the drill.....and all the others Ive been to (though not as closely tied to the gracies) didnt do those drills either. If you do great!
> 
> But assuming all BJJ schools do is naive



Just like assuming that all Bjj schools don't.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Okay, but I'm talking about what actually occurred, not hypotheticals.
> 
> And such basic wrestling lacks the benefits of formal grappling training. A woman with basic wrestling skills isn't going to be able to get a larger person off of her. Such as was the case with this woman in Australia.
> 
> A woman with a high level of training in grappling can get a larger person off of her.


So, seeing that we have established that this young lady did indeed get back off the ground can we say that what you are saying is wrong or that Shukokai training, like many others, provides a reasonable level of training above that of basic wrestling skills? Or are you indeed saying that this young lady already possesses a high level of training in grappling that enabled her to get the much larger opponent off her?


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Its asking a question. Your point is irrelevant nonsense, since if the assailant would have blindsided her and then shanked her to death, nothing she did or possibly did would have mattered.
> 
> 
> 
> I read the first account, I wasn't aware of the second account where the story slightly changed. Either way, you had he getting taken to the ground, her getting off the ground, and then taken back to the ground again. I don't know how Kman figures that the third party's intervention didn't end the confrontation. Both articles made it pretty clear that it did.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you? It very clearly says that the Japanese adapted it from Muay Thai kickboxing.
> 
> 
> 
> Just like assuming that all Bjj schools don't.



She wasnt taken down to the same position for one,

annnnnnnnd no it didnt.

"The main techniques of kickboxing is still derived from Japanese full contact karate (Ilyushin)."
" which absorbed and adopted more rules than techniques from Muay Thai."
"The three karate fighters from _Oyama dojo_ (Ilyushin later) went to the Lumpinee Boxing Stadium in Thailand, and fought against three Muay Thai fighters. The three kyokushin karate fighters' names areTadashi Nakamura, Kenji Kurosaki and Akio Fujihira (as known as Noboru Osawa). Japan won by 2–1: Tadashi Nakamura and Akio Fujihira both KOed opponents by punch while Kenji Kurosaki was KOed by elbow. "

Again, just like American Kickboxing. Karate guys, using Karate Techs, Taking MT's full contact rules.

and Im not assuming ALL dont. I know many still do, its one of my favorite thing to see in ANY grappling class

But when the majority of jiu jitieros I've rolled with in almost 10 years have never done those drills, from multiple schools across multiple states, with lineages both directly under a Gracie and not,  im not treating it like a steeple of the style, or in your own words "Fundamental BJJ"


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> I read the first account, I wasn't aware of the second account where the story slightly changed. Either way, you had he getting taken to the ground, her getting off the ground, and then taken back to the ground again. I don't know how Kman figures that the third party's intervention didn't end the confrontation. Both articles made it pretty clear that it did.


Yes it did, but again you are twisting the facts. It was the assailant who ran away. From my point of view he was about to get his **** handed to him.

She says he grabbed her ankle to stop her running away and pulled her back to the ground. That time she was fighting him. She was about to lay into him when the third party arrived. Pity she hadn't trained to stomp on his head before she tried to run the first time.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> So, seeing that we have established that this young lady did indeed get back off the ground can we say that what you are saying is wrong or that Shukokai training, like many others, provides a reasonable level of training above that of basic wrestling skills? Or are you indeed saying that this young lady already possesses a high level of training in grappling that enabled her to get the much larger opponent off her?



I fail to see how we could make that argument when she got pulled right back to the ground again.



K-man said:


> Yes it did, but again you are twisting the facts. It was the assailant who ran away. From my point of view he was about to get his **** handed to him.



He ran away because a third party entered the situation, not because he was getting beaten up.



> She says he grabbed her ankle to stop her running away and pulled her back to the ground. That time she was fighting him. She was about to lay into him when the third party arrived. Pity she hadn't trained to stomp on his head before she tried to run the first time.



You're free to believe that she was about to "lay into him" if you want. Personally I shudder to think what would have happened to her if that third party didn't show up to end the encounter.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> You think you need to be big and powerful?
> 
> Watch how fast this girl got this guy to tap;


A girl may be able to develop perfect technique (the 1st 50%). But in order for a girl to be able to develop strong ability - Gong (the 2nd 50%), it's much harder.

Many years ago, I took one of my girls to Central Police University in Taiwan. After she had beaten 6 female police officers on the mat. Later on they sent a male police officer on the mat to beat her up. Can a high level girl be able to handle a high level man? I truly don't think so.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Yes it did, but again you are twisting the facts. It was the assailant who ran away. From my point of view he was about to get his **** handed to him.
> 
> She says he grabbed her ankle to stop her running away and pulled her back to the ground. That time she was fighting him. She was about to lay into him when the third party arrived. Pity she hadn't trained to stomp on his head before she tried to run the first time.



There are ways to get up that prevent re grabs.

You guys and your head stomping.


----------



## Buka

Maybe the thread should be titled "Is a grappling art that also includes good striking, better for female self defense than a striking art that also includes good grappling?"

Oh, ya, that would fix everything.


----------



## Hanzou

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A girl may be able to develop perfect technique (the 1st 50%). But in order for a girl to be able to develop strong ability - Gong (the 2nd 50%), it's much harder.
> 
> Many years ago, I took one of my girls to Central Police University in Taiwan. After she had beaten 6 female police officers on the mat. Later on they sent a male police officer on the mat to beat her up. Can a high level girl be able to handle a high level man? I truly don't think so.



There's been plenty of competitive Bjj matches where women went up against men and beat them. In some cases rather quickly.

One great example;


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> There are ways to get up that prevent re grabs.
> 
> You guys and your head stomping.


That was totally tongue in cheek.  
Did you really miss the irony?


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> I fail to see how we could make that argument when she got pulled right back to the ground again.
> 
> He ran away because a third party entered the situation, not because he was getting beaten up.
> 
> You're free to believe that she was about to "lay into him" if you want. Personally I shudder to think what would have happened to her if that third party didn't show up to end the encounter.


Of course you know all about it far better than her. I'll back her call any day because she was actually there and was confident she had his measure. 

But I'm out of this thread now. It's already toxic and it won't get any better.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Of course you know all about it far better than her. I'll back her call any day because she was actually there and was confident she had his measure.



Now that she's safe and sound, I'm sure she was confident she could have taken him out. When she was actually on the ground, with a head wound, bruised ribs, and screaming for help her mindset was clearly quite different.

That said, I give this girl all the credit in the world for stalling this guy long enough for help to arrive.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Hanzou said:


> I recently came across this article in another thread;
> 
> I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au



In 1986/87 College year I transferred to U of Michigan Ann Arbor. Every stop sign had the word "RAPE" painted on it so it read Stop Rape. 
The College had a service set up to escort students and they always showed up in pairs. The thought was two fold, attackers were always alone. And in a pair if they were attacked while going to or from the escort then one could always get away and find a phone with a blue light on it that would ring thru to the Safety Department. In Michigan Safety Departments have Full time and Part time Police officers as well as non police officers usually referred to as security or security types. 

In 1985/86 year there were two young women who were attacked and they fought back and actually disabled the bad guy. He was out and on the ground. One woman left to call for help the other staid against the want of the one who left. She staid as she felt she could take him again. He came too, and faked being out. She did not survive the encounter. 



Hanzou said:


> In the article, a young woman was almost sexually assaulted by a male attacker. Girl had practiced Karate for 15 years, and fought back against her attacker after he pinned her to the ground and started taking her clothes off. Eventually, someone heard her screaming, and the attacker fled. The woman had a head wound, and some bruised ribs.



Being alone and not paying attention is not a good thing. Being alone and still getting into trouble while paying attention is possible. 
It is good she got survived and that the third part came along. 



Hanzou said:


> Now there's some interesting details that bothered me about this story;
> 
> 1. The girl struck her attacker several times, but wasn't able to stop the attack.



Did she strike properly? Did she just hit him like a child and did not strike through him with intent and in a vital area? 
Not sure. It might have helped or allowed he to create space and get a way. 



Hanzou said:


> 2. She ended up on the ground after being surprised from behind.



This is possible to most if not all people. We all can be surprised at some point in our day. 



Hanzou said:


> While I applaud her warrior spirit, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if a third party hadn't intervened. I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if she knew some ground fighting/grappling.



Yes Ground fighting might have helped her to escape and create space and get away. 

Yet, I have wrestled people who are twice my body mass ( I weighed less than I do now ) and they just laid on top of me until I could not breath any more. No real technique and no real defense as I could not move them enough to get into a spot to make space. I could not strike them in a spot to make them react. I was pinned. So even big guys can run into this issue. 

That being said, if she really wants to learn self defense, then she could go get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and learn to shot and learn to draw under fire and respond. Of course most people (males included) just do the minimum training to get the license. 

If a pistol is not what one wants to carry, and sometimes is not allowed on a college or school campus then training with knives and grappling with knives is important. One one gets used to deploying a blade while on the ground and then using it they can then carry a pen or other improvised tool on them in areas where a knife cannot be legally carried. 

Yet, I still point back to the case where I let the guy who weight twice as much as me get on top of me while I on my back. We were trying to do some techniques and while he was trying I had a chance as he kept some weight off of me and was trying to move which allowed me to move. So I asked him to just become dead weight, and WOW! I was done. As long as he was able to cover the one spot I could poke or hit he could just stay there for 30 to 60 seconds and I could not continue with any real fight as I could not breathe. 

Size does matter.


----------



## Steve

Rich Parsons said:


> Yet, I have wrestled people who are twice my body mass ( I weighed less than I do now ) and they just laid on top of me until I could not breath any more. No real technique and no real defense as I could not move them enough to get into a spot to make space. I could not strike them in a spot to make them react. I was pinned. So even big guys can run into this issue.
> 
> That being said, if she really wants to learn self defense, then she could go get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and learn to shot and learn to draw under fire and respond. Of course most people (males included) just do the minimum training to get the license.
> 
> If a pistol is not what one wants to carry, and sometimes is not allowed on a college or school campus then training with knives and grappling with knives is important. One one gets used to deploying a blade while on the ground and then using it they can then carry a pen or other improvised tool on them in areas where a knife cannot be legally carried.
> 
> Yet, I still point back to the case where I let the guy who weight twice as much as me get on top of me while I on my back. We were trying to do some techniques and while he was trying I had a chance as he kept some weight off of me and was trying to move which allowed me to move. *So I asked him to just become dead weight, and WOW! I was done.* As long as he was able to cover the one spot I could poke or hit he could just stay there for 30 to 60 seconds and I could not continue with any real fight as I could not breathe.
> 
> Size does matter.


Rich, first, your story about the women in Michigan is really sad.  What a terrible thing to happen. 

I appreciate your note, and want to just point out one thing.  The bolded part is EXACTLY why people need to do some training.  With proper technique, you CAN move dead weight.  Is it easy?  No (although easier if the person has no training).  Is it comfortable?  Not at all.  I'm claustrophobic and when a big guy is crushing my diaphragm, I am very, very unhappy.  But with technique, a smaller person can create space.  That person can also take advantage of all space that's available. 

As I said before, being a black belt in BJJ would be awesome.  But I think that anyone who is serious about self defense should have *at least* a solid blue belt in BJJ or the equivalent in some other style.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles?.


 
Yeah, pretty much.



Hanzou said:


> I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.


 
That's because-as you've proven time and again-_you don't know how to look._ (or are simply choosing to look where it can't be seen.....) 







Hanzou said:


> And I would still argue that who don't know how to grapple have the bigger hole, since most people know how to naturally claw, pull hair, bite, slap, or kick someone in the groin.


 
Grappling knowledge is essential-but training in all of those other things is required for it to be effective under pressure.

Same thing is true for a gun, or a knife, or anything, really, even a pen.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*One thing is for sure the woman* who defended herself in this story was successful.  She defended herself long enough that eventually someone came to her aid and walla she survived, was not raped, killed, etc. Who knows if it had gone a few seconds longer she may have disabled her attacker totally.  She fought back and survived!  *Sounds like success to me! *

Should she do some grappling?  Sure.  Should she do some weapon/tool training?  Sure.  Should she do some reality based scenario training?  Sure.  Should she continue to practice her karate if she enjoys it?  Sure.  However, did she survive this encounter utilizing her skills with minimal injury?  *Absolutely!!!  In self-defense training that is all that matters.*


----------



## donasidasd

Boxer defends his wife

Video Boxer defends his wife Find Yourself


----------



## Rich Parsons

Steve said:


> Rich, first, your story about the women in Michigan is really sad.  What a terrible thing to happen.
> 
> I appreciate your note, and want to just point out one thing.  The bolded part is EXACTLY why people need to do some training.  With proper technique, you CAN move dead weight.  Is it easy?  No (although easier if the person has no training).  Is it comfortable?  Not at all.  I'm claustrophobic and when a big guy is crushing my diaphragm, I am very, very unhappy.  But with technique, a smaller person can create space.  That person can also take advantage of all space that's available.
> 
> As I said before, being a black belt in BJJ would be awesome.  But I think that anyone who is serious about self defense should have *at least* a solid blue belt in BJJ or the equivalent in some other style.




Steve, I agree it is possible with training. Yet, when a 500 pound person lays on top of you and their fat and mass some muscle is so wide that you cannot get a spot to leverage and lift. So if a 120 lbs girl at 5 foot 1 or so is trapped by a guy who is 330 lbs or so then it could be difficult for her even with training to find the right spot to create the space to breath let alone get away. That being said I was stated the point to acknowledge there was a possibility of a condition where it might be very difficult or impossible. Yet most of us realize we train for the 75% to 90% and that if someone watches you and knows your weaknesses they might just be able to find the right spot to hit you with a sniper rifle from 100 to 500 yards away. It is kind of hard to defend against things like this. 

So yes, training HELPS! Training does not guarantee any success. Also Size matters. One might be able to bench press a small car to create space, yet try it with an 18 wheeler semi truck. If you are underneath it , no matter your leverage and or training there will be a mass one cannot move.  

So yes train. Yes, add weapons to the training so if you grab a rock or stick or a pen or a knife then you can use it. Also if they have a weapon your grappling has not only been limited to only empty hands. I was invited to attend a Vale Tudo Seminar inn London Ontario about 10 years ago, and I was in street clothes and I had a training folder with me. So I put it in my pocket and tried to get it out while the other guy was in my guard or in mount or half guard or ..., well you get the point. The first time, everyone is talking and grunting and working in a room of 30 to 40 people and when that blade locked in place the first time I deployed it, the place went silent except for the guy working with me. He laughed and I was grinning. He knew it went from him having the advantage due to position and skill to now he has to defend against the knife. 

A very small person gets that force multiplier in their hands and they use it, be it an edged or blunt tool they can get that space and also limit the response of their opponent.


----------



## Flying Crane

Drose427 said:


> And I respect your opinion and experiences.
> 
> But I personally feel that (for SD anyways) you should pursue all facets, and avoid running the risk of needing the training and not having it


I understand this position, a lot of people feel this way about it.  On some level i even agree.

However, I believe it is a misleading message to say it is essential.  I do not agree with that.  I do not agree that one must train in a grappling method in order to have good defense skills. On many levels it can even be impossible: lack of availability; lack of time to pursue it; simple lack of interest which causes one to not stick with it.  

No matter what method one trains, grappling or otherwise, consistent training and good instruction are what matters.  If grappling is not part of that, that in no way means one cannot defend oneself, or is inherently at a disadvantage from the get-go.


----------



## Flying Crane

Steve said:


> Whoa.  You have no idea why I train.
> 
> And there is a difference between something being a good idea and something being essential.  No training is essential.   You keep trying to reframe my statements so they're more extreme.  I don't appreciate it.


I'm not trying to reframe anything.  I'll try to restate, since my message may have not been clear.  Feel free to correct me if I'm off.

I understand that you train in bjj because it is a method that you believe in (possibly among.other reasons).  That was my intended message.  Nothing more, nothing less.

My own observations, I summed up in an earlier post here, just before this one.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> That was totally tongue in cheek.
> Did you really miss the irony?



Did you miss mine?


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> That's because-as you've proven time and again-_you don't know how to look._ (or are simply choosing to look where it can't be seen.....)



You're more than welcome to link some examples. Please don't pull a Drose though and post a bunch of demonstrations. Real fights only please.



> Grappling knowledge is essential-but training in all of those other things is required for it to be effective under pressure.



I agree.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I understand this position, a lot of people feel this way about it.  On some level i even agree.
> 
> However, I believe it is a misleading message to say it is essential.  I do not agree with that.  I do not agree that one must train in a grappling method in order to have good defense skills. On many levels it can even be impossible: lack of availability; lack of time to pursue it; simple lack of interest which causes one to not stick with it.
> 
> No matter what method one trains, grappling or otherwise, consistent training and good instruction are what matters.  If grappling is not part of that, that in no way means one cannot defend oneself, or is inherently at a disadvantage from the get-go.



In other words, if you get knocked or tackled to the ground, you better hope for the best.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> You're more than welcome to link some examples. Please don't pull a Drose though and post a bunch of demonstrations.* Real fights only please*.
> 
> 
> 
> ]


 
You mean from like closed circuit security cameras? Whaddya mean, *"real fights*?"[/QUOTE


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> In other words, if you get knocked or tackled to the ground, you better hope for the best.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You know nothing.


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> You mean from like closed circuit security cameras? Whaddya mean, *"real fights*?"[/QUOTE



I mean people actually trying to beat,submit, or hurt their opponent.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou if you are looking for a striking video where someone gets knocked out there are plenty of them out there.  You really aren't doubting the effectiveness of striking are you?  There are also videos with stabbings, shootings and more.  Just go out there and look for them.

Here is a video of Kuk Sool Won practitioner Jay Lee with a simple forearm strike.  Not pretty, not flashy, but effective and taught everywhere.






There are so many other videos out there so next time please go look them up for yourself rather than asking everyone else.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hanzou if you are looking for a striking video where someone gets knocked out there are plenty of them out there.  You really aren't doubting the effectiveness of striking are you?



No, I'm doubting Drose's earlier description of traditional Asian striking arts.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> I mean people actually trying to beat,submit, or hurt their opponent.


 
hey, search "Sabaki Challenge" or "All Japan Open" on youtube.......


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

The guy who performed in that video practices Kuk Sool Won a Korean martial system.  Which would be classified as a traditional Asian art. (like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, etc.)


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The guy who performed in that video practices Kuk Sool Won a Korean martial system.  Which would be classified as a traditional Asian art. (like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, etc.)



I'm aware of that. I wouldn't consider wildly slapping someone in the head with your forearm to be the epitome of traditional Asian martial arts.


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> hey, search "Sabaki Challenge" or "All Japan Open" on youtube.......



The Sabaki challenge is based on Kyokushin Karate, which is a modern martial art. It falls under what I would consider kickboxing, which does have the qualities that Drose discussed.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> I'm aware of that. I wouldn't consider wildly slapping someone in the head with your forearm to be the epitome of traditional Asian martial arts.



Nor would I but that wasn't a wild slap.  It was a forearm strike taught in many Asian martial systems.  It is also brutally effective.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> The Sabaki challenge is based on Kyokushin Karate, which is a modern martial art. It falls under what I would consider kickboxing, which does have the qualities that Drose discussed.


 Nah-it's karate. The Japan Open *is* kyokushin karate.....of course, you could say "karate is a modern martial art," depending upon what you call "karate." keep in mind, though, traditional Okinawan karate has no free-sparring, per se.....


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> I'm aware of that. I wouldn't consider wildly slapping someone in the head with your forearm to be the epitome of traditional Asian martial arts.



It would appear though that you feel that BJJ which is derived from traditional Asian arts as you say it is the epitome of all martial systems?  Am I correct in assuming that?


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nor would I but that wasn't a wild slap.  It was a forearm strike taught in many Asian martial systems.  It is also brutally effective.









So all the kata and forms leads up to that eh? Glad I got out when I did. 

But seriously, Drose stated that traditional Asian striking was full of side steps to dodge punches, and circling to hit weak targets. I have to find any indication of that outside of demonstrations. Even your example is simply some guy wildly backhanding/slapping another guy.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I'm aware of that. I wouldn't consider wildly slapping someone in the head with your forearm to be the epitome of traditional Asian martial arts.


Well, you have proven over and over that you do not understand much of anything about how traditional methods train, nor how that training translates into actual fighting.

Nothing new here.


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Nah-it's karate. The Japan Open *is* kyokushin karate.....of course, you could say "karate is a modern martial art," depending upon what you call "karate." keep in mind, though, traditional Okinawan karate has no free-sparring, per se.....



No, its Enshin Kaikan, which is an offshoot of Kyokushin.

Enshin kaikan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Enshin Karate was founded in 1989, and they employed the Sabaki method, which led to the Sabaki challenge.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> So all the kata and forms leads up to that eh? Glad I got out when I did.
> 
> But seriously, Drose stated that traditional Asian striking was full of side steps to dodge punches, and circling to hit weak targets. I have to find any indication of that outside of demonstrations. Even your example is simply some guy wildly backhanding/slapping another guy.



*Yet seriously Hanzou*, the person in that video utilized a forearm strike in exactly the right spot on the brachial plexus on the side of the neck.  I and many others have been taught that strike and where to strike.  The gentleman in the video utilized that perfectly based on that situation and rendered the incoming pimp unable to function.  *What is not good about that?
*
Based on what you are saying I have to assume that you feel real fights or physical encounters should be pretty? As someone who actually has been in some and worked professionally where hands on stuff is going to happen I can tell you with 100% confidence that they are rarely pretty. Most of the time they are messy...   Yet, when you break them down certain things are clearly noticeable as being effective.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Well, you have proven over and over that you do not understand much of anything about how traditional methods train, nor how that training translates into actual fighting.
> 
> Nothing new here.



You're right. I don't understand how this;









turns into this;


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> So all the kata and forms leads up to that eh? Glad I got out when I did.
> 
> But seriously, Drose stated that traditional Asian striking was full of side steps to dodge punches, and circling to hit weak targets. I have to find any indication of that outside of demonstrations. Even your example is simply some guy wildly backhanding/slapping another guy.


One strike and the bad guy is down and out.  How, exactly, is this a bad thing?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*One thing I think we can all agree on* is that in self-defense or any personal protection situation all that really matters at the end of the day is that you survive and are safe.  Whether you use BJJ, MMA, Kuk Sool Won, Tae Kwon Do, Goju Ryu, Budo Taijutsu, IRT, etc. it really doesn't matter in the end.  All that is important is that you get to go home to your loved ones.  Just like the lady did from the origional post in this thread!


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> You're right. I don't understand how this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turns into this;


You are right:  you do not understand it.  This may be the very first thing you've posted, in which you are right.  Congratulations!!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Hanzou like you I absolutely love BJJ*.  I just don't think it is the end all be all in the martial arts world.  Important yes, invincible absolutely not. (it is the practitioner in the end that matters)  Is it great for what it does?  Absolutely!!!  Does it have limitations?  Absolutely!!!  Unfortunately some times with you making almost everything about BJJ you come across as someone very "new" and inexperienced in the martial arts.  Because most people who have been around the block a time or two and involved in "real world" encounters do not see everything black and white but instead shades of grey.  They have seen or been involved with enough violence that they have witnessed some strange ****.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> No, I'm doubting Drose's earlier description of traditional Asian striking arts.



Doubt all you want, in most of the videos *you *posted, practitioners circled and tried( succeeding at times) in blocking while moving to the outside and striking XD

Again, even as demos they were demos of *regualr and fundamental training within those styles *


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> One strike and the bad guy is down and out.  How, exactly, is this a bad thing?



I never said it was a bad thing. I simply said it wasn't impressive, nor relevant to what I was talking about when I was discussing TAMAs.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Doubt all you want, in most of the videos *you *posted, practitioners circled and tried( succeeding at times) in blocking while moving to the outside and striking XD
> 
> Again, even as demos they were demos of *regualr and fundamental training within those styles *



Uh where? In every vid I posted you have two guys slamming into each other throwing haymakers and slaps. None of the control, or fluidity of those demos were present.

Compare that mess to something like boxing or MMA. In those you truly do see the attributes you're describing.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I never said it was a bad thing. I simply said it wasn't impressive, nor relevant to what I was talking about when I was discussing TAMAs.


Once again, you understand nothing. You can't see the relevance?  WOW!!


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I never said it was a bad thing. I simply said it wasn't impressive, nor relevant to what I was talking about when I was discussing TAMAs.



Oh, but you DID say it's a bad thing...


Hanzou said:


> So all the kata and forms leads up to that eh? Glad I got out when I did.



Or are you going to try and put some kind of spin on this and pretend it means something else?


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Once again, you understand nothing. You can't see the relevance?  WOW!!



Where did I say you couldn't knock someone out with a wild slap to the side of the head? I said that I have yet to see a fight video showcasing a TAMA sliding around to avoid strikes, and counter-striking as described by Drose. I asked for video evidence of such, and Brian posted a karate guy back handing a drunk pimp.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say you couldn't knock someone out with a wild slap to the side of the head? I said that I have yet to see a fight video showcasing a TAMA sliding around to avoid strikes, and counter-striking as described by Drose. I asked for video evidence of such, and Brian posted a karate guy back handing a drunk pimp.


Take a looks at my previous post.  Spin Doctor...


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, but you DID say it's a bad thing...



Nope, I was saying it wasn't impressive, not that it was a bad thing.

it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to swing a wild haymaker and knock some clown unconscious. Untrained people do it all the time.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> No, its Enshin Kaikan, which is an offshoot of Kyokushin.
> 
> Enshin kaikan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Enshin Karate was founded in 1989, and they employed the Sabaki method, which led to the Sabaki challenge.


You're funny.....



Back in 1973, when I was a 13 year old barely brand new _sankyu_ in Kyokushin, some Japanese fellows came to live and train with my seniors (men-no, _legends_-like Willie Williams) in New York-they introduced us to thigh kicks that year-first time I took a round kick in the thigh, I about lost my lunch!

One of them was Ninomiya Joko.....who left Kyokushin for_ Ashihara_ when it was started by Ashihara sensei, , and *then* founded his own style after moving to the U.S. for good.....when I worked in Denver, I stayed just around the corner from his dojo-I only worked out there once, but he and I had dinner and beers quite a few times.

He's one of my oldest budo friends......unlike the other Japanese who came over, he was  seemed very interested in America (and maybe even being an American)...and I still laugh out loud just remembering the way his eyes goggled at the mustard being put on his first hot dog.

It's all karate, Hanzou- and you see the same kind of evasion and side-stepping even in Kyokushin (which is where Ninomiya learned it and perfected it, and chiefly what he used to finally win the 1978 All-Japan Tournament (after competing in '75 and 76). His first dojo in Denver was under Kyokushin-then Ashihara when it was founded in 1980, then _Enshin_ in 1989-_enshin_, BTW, signifies that part of a half circle a fighter follows to strike from his opponents blind spot-a form of _sabaki_, or positioning-sort of what we're talking about here, and something he and Ashihara before him learned from kyokushin........something our kyokushin sensei learned from Oyama, and something Oyama learned from Yamaguchi and others....

It's *all* _karate_.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Nope, I was saying it wasn't impressive, not that it was a bad thing.
> 
> it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to swing a wild haymaker and knock some clown unconscious. Untrained people do it all the time.


Spin doctor.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say you couldn't knock someone out with a wild slap to the side of the head? I said that I have yet to see a fight video showcasing a TAMA sliding around to avoid strikes, and counter-striking as described by Drose. I asked for video evidence of such, and Brian posted a karate guy back handing a drunk pimp.



You _Posted videos where they do it XD_


----------



## Drose427

around 50 seconds in, punch- check counter punch,





 BLack pants steps/leans just outside of the punch and counters with a slap a few times XD

I assume you'll just say "Nuh uh! I didnt see it! That wasnt REAL"
Your assertion that that kind of movement "isnt a a part of Asian styles unless they have ties to kickboxing" is as inaccurate as saying Kickboxing didnt come from Karate XD


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> You're funny.....
> 
> 
> 
> Back in 1973, when I was a 13 year old barely brand new _sankyu_ in Kyokushin, some Japanese fellows came to live and train with my seniors (men-no, _legends_-like Willie Williams) in New York-they introduced us to thigh kicks that year-first time I took a round kick in the thigh, I about lost my lunch!
> 
> One of them was Ninomiya Joko.....who left Kyokushin for_ Ashihara_ when it was started by Ashihara sensei, , and *then* founded his own style after moving to the U.S. for good.....when I worked in Denver, I stayed just around the corner from his dojo-I only worked out there once, but he and I had dinner and beers quite a few times.
> 
> He's one of my oldest budo friends......unlike the other Japanese who came over, he was  seemed very interested in America (and maybe even being an American)...and I still laugh out loud just remembering the way his eyes goggled at the mustard being put on his first hot dog.
> 
> It's all karate, Hanzou- and you see the same kind of evasion and side-stepping even in Kyokushin (which is where Ninomiya learned it and perfected it, and chiefly what he used to finally win the 1978 All-Japan Tournament (after competing in '75 and 76). His first dojo in Denver was under Kyokushin-then Ashihara when it was founded in 1980, then _Enshin_ in 1989-_enshin_, BTW, signifies that part of a half circle a fighter follows to strike from his opponents blind spot-a form of _sabaki_, or positioning-sort of what we're talking about here, and something he and Ashihara before him learned from kyokushin........something our kyokushin sensei learned from Oyama, and something Oyama learned from Yamaguchi and others....
> 
> It's *all* _karate_.



I'm curious where any of that above contradicts anything I stated in the earlier post.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Uh where? In every vid I posted you have two guys slamming into each other throwing haymakers and slaps. None of the control, or fluidity of those demos were present.
> 
> Compare that mess to something like boxing or MMA. In those you truly do see the attributes you're describing.



Post #63,

The top and bottom videos both and guys move just outside, check, and counter XD

YOu're literally refusing to see it, and just for kicks I posted two more sparring matches where they did it XD

You really need to stop acting like youre vastly knowledgeable on TMAS (outside of BJJ). You get proven wrong almost everytime and resort to blindly disagreeing and saying BJJ is a better method


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious where any of that above contradicts anything I stated in the earlier post.



Other than the fact that the methods in Kyokushin you're labeling as "Kickboxing" Come from Oyama Senseis Previous Shotokan and Chinese MArtial Arts training? XD


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> around 50 seconds in, punch- check counter punch,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BLack pants steps/leans just outside of the punch and counters with a slap a few times XD
> 
> I assume you'll just say "Nuh uh! I didnt see it! That wasnt REAL"
> Your assertion that that kind of movement "isnt a a part of Asian styles unless they have ties to kickboxing" is as inaccurate as saying Kickboxing didnt come from Karate XD



When you say a sidestep or dodge to a counter strike, I'm thinking this;






Mainly Ali in the five seconds of the clip.

I see none of that in anything you've posted. And it should be noted that boxers achieve that skill in far less time.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> When you say a sidestep or dodge to a counter strike, I'm thinking this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mainly Ali in the five seconds of the clip.
> 
> I see none of that in anything you've posted. And it should be noted that boxers achieve that skill in far less time.



Very very very few boxers or MMA fighters achieve that level of movement.

IF you're looking for that level ANYWHERE 

you wont find it bub.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou, here is some advice for you:  stop talking about traditional martial arts.  You know nothing about them.  You do not understand them.  When you talk about them, you show yourself for a fool.  

Instead, if you are genuinely interested, you should ASK about them.  And, if anyone here still has enough patience with you left to give you an answer (rather than just tell you to go back and read any of the dozens of threads where you have already been given plenty of explanations), you just might learn something.  IF you can exercise enough self control to refrain from adding comments of your own and pretending like you know anything.  Because you do not.  You should really shut up and listen.

Hmm....perhaps this deserves a separate thread of its own...


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Very very very few boxers or MMA fighters achieve that level of movement.
> 
> IF you're looking for that level ANYWHERE
> 
> you wont find it bub.



Ali level? I agree. However, evasion and counter punching are pretty standard tenets of boxing, which is why they're readily apparent in several examples.

It is rarer in MMA, but it does exist. Anderson Silva being a prime example;

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/790001/jpuh7c_jpg.gif






Again, I see nothing like that in what you're posting.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Ali level? I agree. However, evasion and counter punching are pretty standard tenets of boxing, which is why they're readily apparent in several examples.
> 
> It is rarer in MMA, but it does exist. Anderson Silva being a prime example;
> 
> http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/790001/jpuh7c_jpg.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I see nothing like that in what you're posting.



If you dont see it, you're purposefully not even looking XD


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Ali level? I agree. However, evasion and counter punching are pretty standard tenets of boxing, which is why they're readily apparent in several examples.
> 
> It is rarer in MMA, but it does exist. Anderson Silva being a prime example;
> 
> http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/790001/jpuh7c_jpg.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I see nothing like that in what you're posting.



In a previous post I gave times of the "Move, check, counter", although throughout the whole fight  there was circling, movement, silve kinds of leans etc.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Did you miss mine?


No, but I wasn't 100% sure. Hence the phrasing of the question.


----------



## Flying Crane

I'm not joking.


----------



## Steve

Well, I have to say.  I'm really glad we hashed this out, and can all agree that BJJ is better for female self defense than striking. 

Thanks everyone.  It's rare to reach a consensus so quickly, but I believe that the genuine desire on everyone's part to listen, focus on common ground and avoid misunderstandings that has led to such a positive conclusion.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> If you dont see it, you're purposefully not even looking XD



Oh I'm definitely looking. I see the same thing in your vids, and the TMA vids that I see when I watch untrained thugs brawl in the streets.






I wouldn't consider either to be showcase of technical skill, though some of the technique displayed by the thugs looks better than the "technique" on display by so-called expert martial artists.

Neither matches the skill level found in boxing or kickboxing.

Additionally, vids like the one above is why I didn't find the one hit slap that Brian posted to be all that impressive. I see untrained kids do that to each other all the time.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Oh I'm definitely looking. I see the same thing in your vids, and the TMA vids that I see when I watch untrained thugs brawl in the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't consider either to be showcase of technical skill, though some of the technique displayed by the thugs looks better than the "technique" on display by so-called expert martial artists.
> 
> Neither matches the skill level found in boxing or kickboxing.



Nothing in that vid so far looks REMOTELY like the movement in any of the videos I posted bud XD

Keep lookin

As for Skill level of movement in boxing, it isnt as widespread as youre making it out to be.






Heres a highlight of the pacqiao mayweather bout (arguably the two best boxers currently) and they arent circling like Ali either XD


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious where any of that above contradicts anything I stated in the earlier post.


 Enshin isn't an off shoot of kyokushin, it's an off shoot of Ashihara-an offshoot of kyokushin would have kata.

Just to spin you up, think of Enshin as all _bunkai_, with a lot less kata.....


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Enshin isn't an off shoot of kyokushin, it's an off shoot of Ashihara-an offshoot of kyokushin would have kata.
> 
> Just to spin you up, think of Enshin as all _bunkai_, with a lot less kata.....



Enshin kaikan



*Focus* Hybrid and eclectic
*Country of origin* 

 Japan
*Creator* Jōkō Ninomiya
*Parenthood* *Kyokushin kaikan*, Ashihara kaikan
*Olympic sport* No
*Official website* Home

Enshin kaikan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Enshin kaikan
> 
> 
> 
> *Focus* Hybrid and eclectic
> *Country of origin*
> 
> Japan
> *Creator* Jōkō Ninomiya
> *Parenthood* *Kyokushin kaikan*, Ashihara kaikan
> *Olympic sport* No
> *Official website* Home
> 
> Enshin kaikan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


 
Yeah, Wikipedia is basically wrong. Ninomiya was disassociated from kyokushin for nearly a decade with Ashihara before founding Enshin.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Nothing in that vid so far looks REMOTELY like the movement in any of the videos I posted bud XD



Well to be fair, the majority of your vids are just demonstrations.

However, since you said that my vids also contained the attributes you discussed, tell me, what's the difference between this;







and this;

x09BAq.gif





Other than the fact that two punk kids have better fighting form than two martial arts experts in Asia....



> As for Skill level of movement in boxing, it isnt as widespread as youre making it out to be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heres a highlight of the pacqiao mayweather bout (arguably the two best boxers currently) and they arent circling like Ali either XD



Are we watching the same vid? They're circling each other and counter punching constantly.


----------



## Drose427

J2tWAR.gif

and this;

[URL='http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-20-2015/x09BAq.gif']x09BAq.gif[/URL]

Other than the fact that two punk kids have better fighting form than two martial arts experts in Asia....



Are we watching the same vid? They're circling each other and counter punching constantly.[/QUOTE]

GO back and watch,.....

I've post 4 or 5 different sparring and tournament videos and guess what they did?

Circled and punched/kicked each other constantly XD


----------



## elder999

elder999 said:


> Yeah, Wikipedia is basically wrong. Ninomiya was disassociated from kyokushin for nearly a decade with Ashihara before founding Enshin.


More to the point, while definitely "hybrid and eclectic," it's form is, essentially, _karate_ *not* "kickboxing."


----------



## Drose427

elder999 said:


> More to the point, while definitely "hybrid and eclectic," it's form is, essentially, _karate_ *not* "kickboxing."



Im not sure he can differientiate the two..

I mean he posted a wiki claiming Japanese Kickboxing came from MT,

When the wiki said pretty plainly it came from Karate guys, using Karate Techs, wanting to spar under Full Contact MT rules.

He seems to be under the impression that Karate adopted kickboxing methods.....when those methods where in Karate first XD


----------



## elder999

Drose427 said:


> He seems to be under the impression that Karate adopted kickboxing methods.....when those methods where in Karate first XD


 
Karate-in the case of kyokushin-did adapt some kickboxing "methods." The thigh kick entered tournament sparring after fighting muay thai boxers in Thailand, in the early 70's and late 60's.....that's really about it, though........the round kick didn't become a "muay thai" round kick, it was just given a new legal target in sparring....


----------



## elder999

Steve said:


> Well, I have to say.  I'm really glad we hashed this out, and can all agree that BJJ is better for female self defense than striking.



Wha-wha-*wha?*


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> Wha-wha-*wha?*


Lol.  Oh great.   Now you're going to want to argue about it!


----------



## jezr74

Interesting thread. 10% Article, 40% Conjecture, 50% Crazy.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It would appear though that you feel that BJJ which is derived from traditional Asian arts as you say it is the epitome of all martial systems?  Am I correct in assuming that?



In all honesty, I feel that Judo is the epitome of traditional Asian martial arts. However, I feel that rules and regulations have stifled its development, and its offshoots, Bjj and Sambo have done a better job of doing what Judo should have done. I view Bjj as simply a more eclectic and open form of Judo.

So no, your assumption would be wrong.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Hanzou like you I absolutely love BJJ*.  I just don't think it is the end all be all in the martial arts world.  Important yes, invincible absolutely not. (it is the practitioner in the end that matters)  Is it great for what it does?  Absolutely!!!  Does it have limitations?  Absolutely!!!  Unfortunately some times with you making almost everything about BJJ you come across as someone very "new" and inexperienced in the martial arts.  Because most people who have been around the block a time or two and involved in "real world" encounters do not see everything black and white but instead shades of grey.  They have seen or been involved with enough violence that they have witnessed some strange ****.



I'm curious where you get the idea that I believe that Bjj is "invincible". I'm in agreement with you that it is very important. Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it. Further, since the majority of my martial arts experience in grappling, that's the perspective I'm coming from. I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style. I've gotten that charge simply by asking why Kung Fu and Karate while engaged in fighting doesn't resemble pre-arranged forms that are supposedly so integral to their system.

And of course comes the childish charge that I simply don't understand traditional styles, which sounds like a snake oil salesman who gives you a tonic that doesn't do what its supposed to do.

Here's what I do understand; I understand that my experiences with traditional martial arts line up perfectly with those Asian martial artists slapping themselves silly on the streets of China. They even line up perfectly with the video of that Karate guy wildly hitting that pimp and knocking him unconscious by pure luck. You really think I don't know why karate guys don't fight like their katas? You really think I don't know why a Taiji master can't stop a simple takedown? You really think I don't know why Wing Chun and Aikido guys came up with that anti-grappling nonsense? You really think I don't understand why Stephen Hayes can't come up with a simple counter to the guard?

I know the answers to all of those questions. I'm simply seeking some honesty, and to date, I have yet to receive any.  That's okay though. It's what I've come to expect from a certain segment of the MA community.


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Yeah, Wikipedia is basically wrong. Ninomiya was disassociated from kyokushin for nearly a decade with Ashihara before founding Enshin.



It's pretty clear that Ashihara karate comes from Kyokushin, and that Enshin in turn comes from Ashihara and Kyokushin.

So how is Wikipedia incorrect here? Kyokushin -----> Ashihara Karate -----> Enshin Karate.

Of course all of that is irrelevant to the main point; All of those are *modern* styles of Karate.


----------



## jezr74

For what is worth. More on the details of what happened. Sounds like she fought him off using some ground skills. Then attacked him standing using her striking skills. 

Karate champ Taela Davis fights off thug in disturbing daylight assault

Win Win.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> They even line up perfectly with the video of that Karate guy wildly hitting that pimp and knocking him unconscious by pure luck.


Pure luck? He used a specific technique to a specific target which had the desired effect of ending the engagement.


----------



## RTKDCMB

elder999 said:


> Yeah, Wikipedia is basically wrong.


Wikipedia wrong about something,such a shocker.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> Pure luck? He used a specific technique to a specific target which had the desired effect of ending the engagement.








LoL! If you say so.

Like I said, I've seen better "technique" between two thugs on World Star Hip Hop.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Karate.
> 
> Of course all of that is irrelevant to the main point; All of those are *modern* styles of Karate.


 
May as well say, then, that all karate are *modern* styles of karate-only some with free-sparring, and some without.

How are *you* making that differentiation? What karate would you say is "not modern?"


----------



## drop bear

Sex Attacker Pounces On Female Kickboxer Gets Put To Sleep - UNILAD

Rapist put to sleep with the grapple.

(just came across it. )


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> May as well say, then, that all karate are *modern* styles of karate-only some with free-sparring, and some without.
> 
> How are *you* making that differentiation? What karate would you say is "not modern?"



Pre-War and Post-War. Pre-War tends to be more traditional. Post-War is more modern.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Sex Attacker Pounces On Female Kickboxer Gets Put To Sleep - UNILAD
> 
> Rapist put to sleep with the grapple.
> 
> (just came across it. )



Lovely.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Pre-War and Post-War. Pre-War tends to be more traditional. Post-War is more modern.


 

What's "traditional?" As in :"Pre-war tends to be more traditional...." just to be clear, how do you differentiate "more traditional" from "more modern" when it comes to karate?


----------



## PhotonGuy

I checked out the link and I would say her main problem was that when she was attacked she was in the white. She was out enjoying a walk and was oblivious to her surroundings and that's why the attacker was able to surprise her. She needed to be in the yellow. You should be in the yellow whenever you go out. She ended up with broken ribs and bruising but had the stranger not arrived and scared off her attacker she probably would've faired much worse. Some grappling experience definitely would've helped her and I think for all martial arts practitioners its good to be well rounded in both striking and grappling. Also, for women defenders especially I think its important to go to the most vulnerable areas such as the eyes. Instead of punching him in the face it might've been more effective if she had attacked his eyes, especially if she has long nails.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious where you get the idea that I believe that Bjj is "invincible". I'm in agreement with you that it is very important. Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it. Further, since the majority of my martial arts experience in grappling, that's the perspective I'm coming from. I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style. I've gotten that charge simply by asking why Kung Fu and Karate while engaged in fighting doesn't resemble pre-arranged forms that are supposedly so integral to their system.
> 
> And of course comes the childish charge that I simply don't understand traditional styles, which sounds like a snake oil salesman who gives you a tonic that doesn't do what its supposed to do.
> 
> Here's what I do understand; I understand that my experiences with traditional martial arts line up perfectly with those Asian martial artists slapping themselves silly on the streets of China. They even line up perfectly with the video of that Karate guy wildly hitting that pimp and knocking him unconscious by pure luck. You really think I don't know why karate guys don't fight like their katas? You really think I don't know why a Taiji master can't stop a simple takedown? You really think I don't know why Wing Chun and Aikido guys came up with that anti-grappling nonsense? You really think I don't understand why Stephen Hayes can't come up with a simple counter to the guard?
> 
> I know the answers to all of those questions. I'm simply seeking some honesty, and to date, I have yet to receive any.  That's okay though. It's what I've come to expect from a certain segment of the MA community.


Oh n the nonsense!!!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## drop bear

PhotonGuy said:


> I checked out the link and I would say her main problem was that when she was attacked she was in the white. She was out enjoying a walk and was oblivious to her surroundings and that's why the attacker was able to surprise her. She needed to be in the yellow. You should be in the yellow whenever you go out. She ended up with broken ribs and bruising but had the stranger not arrived and scared off her attacker she probably would've faired much worse. Some grappling experience definitely would've helped her and I think for all martial arts practitioners its good to be well rounded in both striking and grappling. Also, for women defenders especially I think its important to go to the most vulnerable areas such as the eyes. Instead of punching him in the face it might've been more effective if she had attacked his eyes, especially if she has long nails.



Big call from what is a random attack.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it.


Now that is an out and out deliberate untruth. This is your first contribution to a thread I started to seriously discuss bunkai. It is actually the first reply to my OP.



Hanzou said:


> Unfortunately, I'm forced to define Bunkai as a method to make up techniques that have nothing to do with the kata itself. I have yet to run across any consistent methodology to break down bunkai, nor have I seen anyone utilize bunkai in an alive manner. We only see bunkai utilized for demonstration purposes.
> 
> In my honest opinion, bunkai has been simply manufactured in order to give some meaning to kata practice; A practice that is rapidly losing ground to more direct methods of instruction that have abandoned the practice of kata altogether. I still believe that karate would be better off by eliminating kata, increase sparring practice, and teach the techniques themselves in a method similar to boxing or MMA.
> 
> That's simply MY opinion though.


Denying the existance of bunkai makes it hard to make a positive contribution. Then of course you come back to the usual boxing or MMA is better. There was no reference to MMA before you brought it up.




Hanzou said:


> Further, since the majority of my martial arts experience in grappling, that's the perspective I'm coming from. I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style. I've gotten that charge simply by asking why Kung Fu and Karate while engaged in fighting doesn't resemble pre-arranged forms that are supposedly so integral to their system.


You have had your question answered by numerous people many times. You refuse to accept any of their answers despite the fact that many members are talking as highly ranked instructors of those styles.



Hanzou said:


> And of course comes the childish charge that I simply don't understand traditional styles, which sounds like a snake oil salesman who gives you a tonic that doesn't do what its supposed to do.


Well quite simply, you have comprehensively demonstrated you don't.



Hanzou said:


> Here's what I do understand; I understand that my experiences with traditional martial arts line up perfectly with those Asian martial artists slapping themselves silly on the streets of China. They even line up perfectly with the video of that Karate guy wildly hitting that pimp and knocking him unconscious by pure luck. You really think I don't know why karate guys don't fight like their katas? You really think I don't know why a Taiji master can't stop a simple takedown? You really think I don't know why Wing Chun and Aikido guys came up with that anti-grappling nonsense? You really think I don't understand why Stephen Hayes can't come up with a simple counter to the guard?


And none of these statements are putting down other styles? Even a new one here ... now even Aikido has 'anti-grappling' 'nonsense.



Hanzou said:


> I know the answers to all of those questions. I'm simply seeking some honesty, and to date, I have yet to receive any.  That's okay though. It's what I've come to expect from a certain segment of the MA community.


OK. Let's look at honesty.

_"I know the answers to all of those questions."_  Your don't or if you do you are not being honest in the rest of your posts where you question what people are saying.

_"In my honest opinion, bunkai has been simply manufactured in order to give some meaning to kata practice; A practice that is rapidly losing ground to more direct methods of instruction that have abandoned the practice of kata altogether. I still believe that karate would be better off by eliminating kata, increase sparring practice, and teach the techniques themselves in a method similar to boxing or MMA."_

Easily demonstrated to be false so why is it still "your opinion" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? When you first came onto MT you didn't even know that kata and bunkai were separate things.

And honesty?
_"I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it."_


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Now that is an out and out deliberate untruth. This is your first contribution to a thread I started to seriously discuss bunkai. It is actually the first reply to my OP.
> 
> Denying the existance of bunkai makes it hard to make a positive contribution. Then of course you come back to the usual boxing or MMA is better. There was no reference to MMA before you brought it up.



Boxing and MMA are the same as Bjj? When did that happen?




> You have had your question answered by numerous people many times. You refuse to accept any of their answers despite the fact that many members are talking as highly ranked instructors of those styles.



The only answer I've ever gotten was that I don't "understand" kata or bunkai. When others asked the same question, they got the same answer. It's interesting that Ashihara and Enshin Karate changed the traditional kata completely to make them more fighter-friendly. Did Hideyuki Ashihara and Jōkō Ninomiya not understand kata and bunkai either? Their sparring looks a heck of a lot better than anything I've seen out of Goju, Shotokan, Wado, or any of the older Karate styles, so maybe they're on to something?



> And none of these statements are putting down other styles? Even a new one here ... now even Aikido has 'anti-grappling' 'nonsense.
















Anti-grappling nonsense.


----------



## drop bear

elder999 said:


> What's "traditional?" As in :"Pre-war tends to be more traditional...." just to be clear, how do you differentiate "more traditional" from "more modern" when it comes to karate?



I don't know. I jeep getting told tma,s don't spar. Although I generally consider traditional as wearing a gi.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> I don't know. I jeep getting told tma,s don't spar. Although I generally consider traditional as wearing a gi.



Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing. Those styles are often called "fighting Karate", and if I ever get back into Karate again, it would be in one of those styles. Probably Ashihara or Enshin, since they're not as kata-heavy.


----------



## drop bear

Now lets look at the really fun bits white we are getting all snarky.

Sports mentality vs a life or death fight. Beating people with punches choking people out untill they pass out and letting them go. It seems there just might be an overlap here. 

The super serious stress of a street fight making you into a gumby without some sort of specialized street geared psychological training. (coming to you at the low low price of....)

It seem both of these women could come up with a plan of attack and apply it successfully. And where I did meet resistance change that plan. 

Which does not sound at all like the mind shattering stress that. Forces people into gross motor movements.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing. Those styles are often called "fighting Karate", and if I ever get back into Karate again, it would be in one of those styles. Probably Ashihara or Enshin, since they're not as kata-heavy.



But still considered a tma? I mean most styles we do are generally pretty young.

Actually I am going to help train a kk guy for a comp. So will get my no face punching.


----------



## Buka

To the OP.....
Yup.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing..



*NO!*

Kyokushin was "fighting karate," the "strongest karate" *long* before going to Thailand and fighting Muay Thai fighters-something that occurred mostly in the late 60's and 70s (Ninomiya Joko was one guy who went to Thailand to fight) .....or any influence from Muay THati-like I posted, we were fighting full-contact, bare knuckle when I was a child-in the early 70's, and didn't see kicks to the thigh until around 1973 or '74.....while many kyokushin fighters have become kickboxers over the years, kyokushin is *not* "karate+kickboxong." it's karate...and I'd have to ask (since I'm the 3rd dan in kyokushin, and you're the whatever belt in BJJ)
  what's not "traditional" about the taikyoku kata, the pinan kata,_kanku dai, bassai dai, sushiho or naihanchidz, gekkisai, sanchin or tensho_ kata? Because they're the biggest chunk of kyokushin......(and they're all "pre-war," so I'm confused.....*not )

Oh, and here's some guys fighting like they do kata....just for you:





and some shotokan guys fighting with bunkai:





*


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, the Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin folks are all into heavy fighting thanks to the influence of Muay Thai and kickboxing..



*NO!*

Kyokushin was "fighting karate," the "strongest karate" *long* before going to Thailand and fighting Muay Thai fighters-something that occurred mostly in the late 60's and 70s (Ninomiya Joko was one guy who went to Thailand to fight) .....or any influence from Muay THati-like I posted, we were fighting full-contact, bare knuckle when I was a child-in the early 70's, and didn't see kicks to the thigh until around 1973 or '74.....while many kyokushin fighters have become kickboxers over the years, kyokushin is *not* "karate+kickboxong." it's karate...and I'd have to ask (since I'm the 3rd dan in kyokushin, and you're the yellow belt in BJJ)
  what's not "traditional" about the taikyoku kata, the pinan kata,_kanlu dai, bassai dai, sushiho or naihanchidz, gekkisai, sanchin or tensho_ kata? Because they're the biggest chunk of kyokushin......(and they're all "pre-war," so I'm confused.....*not )

Oh, and here's some guys fighting like they do kata....just for you:





and some shotokan guys fighting with bunkai:





*


----------



## elder999

Sorry about the double post...can't seem to post as quickly...can't seem to edit or delete....I'm so......"discouraged." .......*not.*






I mean.....*bite me.*.....


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Bondly. Did Hideyuki Ashihara and Jōkō Ninomiya not understand kata and bunkai either?



*No.* As I posted elsewhere and earlier, you can think of their karate as being reduced to bunkai-without the kata-all fighting,way less spiritual development (though there's plenty of _fighting_ spirit, there's not as much personal devlopment-it's the same conversation I've had with Ninomiya sensei for, well, decades, every time he's tried to convert me....I * like* kata....)


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> *NO!*
> 
> Kyokushin was "fighting karate," the "strongest karate" *long* before going to Thailand and fighting Muay Thai fighters-something that occurred mostly in the late 60's and 70s (Ninomiya Joko was one guy who went to Thailand to fight) .....or any influence from Muay THati-like I posted, we were fighting full-contact, bare knuckle when I was a child-in the early 70's, and didn't see kicks to the thigh until around 1973 or '74.....while many kyokushin fighters have become kickboxers over the years, kyokushin is *not* "karate+kickboxong." it's karate...and I'd have to ask (since I'm the 3rd dan in kyokushin, and you're the yellow belt in BJJ)
> what's not "traditional" about the taikyoku kata, the pinan kata,_kanlu dai, bassai dai, sushiho or naihanchidz, gekkisai, sanchin or tensho_ kata? Because they're the biggest chunk of kyokushin......(and they're all "pre-war," so I'm confused.....*not )*


*
Oh brother.... 

How about we just forget I mentioned Kyokushin so your panties don't get into a bunch and we can get back to the topic, k?

Also there are no yellow belts in Bjj.





			Oh, and here's some guys fighting like they do kata....just for you:
		
Click to expand...

*
One looks like kickboxing without the head shots, and the other is point sparring trash.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> *Also there are no yellow belts in Bjj.
> *



Kinda depends on where, but "blue belt." Whatever....
*

*


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Kinda depends on where, but "blue belt." Whatever....
> *
> *



LoL! Wrong again. It takes on average 2 years to get a blue belt in Bjj.

Anyways.... back to topic.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> LoL! Wrong again. It takes on average 2 years to get a blue belt in Bjj.
> 
> Anyways.... back to topic.



No, it depends on where...there are quite a few schools-includoing the "gracie online academy" where blue belt can be achieved in less than 2 years....

it comes after white, so it'll always be kinda "yellow" to me...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It didn't take me a year to get blue belt in BJJ,.....of course, I had already been dan grade in judo for what seems like _forever_,now,  and I doubt I'll ever pursue anything beyond purple......BJJ, after all, is *B*asically *J*ust. *J*udo.....


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> No, it depends on where...there are quite a few schools-includoing the "gracie online academy" where blue belt can be achieved in less than 2 years....



Yeah, that's why I said "average".



> it comes after white, so it'll always be kinda "yellow" to me...



Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....



> It didn't take me a year to get blue belt in BJJ,.....of course, I had already been dan grade in judo for what seems like _forever_,now, and I doubt I'll ever pursue anything beyond purple......BJJ, after all, is *B*asically *J*ust. *J*udo.....



Except for the transitions, leg locks, no-gi, leg takedowns, ankle picks, etc.


----------



## Shai Hulud

Hanzou said:


> I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.


I would then inquire into the content of her training regimen. Is she pressure/stress tested enough to mimic real-world scenarios beyond the safe world of the dojo? Or does she only train as a hobby or for health? It takes a different kind of mindset to make a fighter. In this I believe that it is not so much what you train, but how you train. It is your approach to training that will make the difference. I have met many elite martial artists here in the martial arts circles of St. Petersburg; a number of them only to be destroyed on the mats by Russian and/or Ex-Soviet military operators. If you want to win fights, you must train for fights, and sparring is not the only way to do that. ☺

As far as Davis is concerned, she walked away from that confrontation unbowed, which I consider the immediate goal of self-defense.


----------



## K-man

Shai Hulud said:


> I would then inquire into the content of her training regimen. Is she pressure/stress tested enough to mimic real-world scenarios beyond the safe world of the dojo? Or does she only train as a hobby or for health? It takes a different kind of mindset to make a fighter. In this I believe that it is not so much what you train, but how you train. It is your approach to training that will make the difference. I have met many elite martial artists here in the martial arts circles of St. Petersburg; a number of them only to be destroyed on the mats by Russian and/or Ex-Soviet military operators. If you want to win fights, you must train for fights, and sparring is not the only way to do that. ☺
> 
> As far as Davis is concerned, she walked away from that confrontation unbowed, which I consider the immediate goal of self-defense.


Shai, don't believe a word Hanzou is writing. He is ignoring the facts and writing ********. My advice to him would be to focus!

Here is yet another account.
Karate black-belt Taela Davis turns the tables on rapist who attacked her Daily Mail Online

_"So I turned around and tried to get my body weight behind me and I punched him in the face and made his nose bleed, but that didn't really do as much as I'd hoped.

'He grabbed both my arms so I couldn't hit him again so I ended up headbutting him, which was really painful, but with my karate training we are told to find an opening.

'Then I managed to get some distance in between us and decided to knee him the groin and ribs repeatedly.'

Ms Davis' yelling soon caught the attention of a passer-by whose appearance, 'spooking' her attacker, causing him to flee."_



Read more: Karate black-belt Taela Davis turns the tables on rapist who attacked her Daily Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

She was on her feet attacking her attacker when the third party guy turned up. Make sure you read her Facebook account that is included in the article. Also read the previous articles I linked. They tell a bit more about her training.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm… without wading into the quagmire that this thread has become (again), there's a few things that leapt out to me, that honestly I'm a little surprised haven't been addressed already...



Steve said:


> Grappling/ground fighting is critical.  I don't think it's the only thing they need to know, but a purple belt (or at least an experienced blue belt) in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction.  That goes for anyone, really..



Steve… gotta say… this is completely inaccurate. A particular ranking in BJJ should be a fundamental pillar of self defence instruction? Dude… what? You, by your own admission, have never trained in, been interested in, gained any experience in, or have any real understanding of self defence training… however you are experienced in BJJ training. So… all your BJJ experience can then be surmised as not being focused on self defence… which makes it questionable as to just how "fundamental" BJJ ranking is to a self defence methodology.

More importantly, how arrogant is it to say that a modern sporting-heavy, limited application, limited context system, simply by having a specialisation of one small area of the minor area of combative defensive skills, would then be a fundamental aspect, or even a requirement? I'll put it this way… my self defence curriculum features no BJJ at all… ground work is perhaps 5% of the overall approach… it's almost opposite to BJJ there… and, bluntly… it's about a thousand times more advanced, suited, applicable, and detailed than anything I've seen in any BJJ approach, school, class, or material.

In other words, no, there is nothing that supports the idea that rank in BJJ should be considered a "fundamental pillar" of anything of the kind.

Look… I get the idea that having something dealing with ground defence and escape is a good idea… but the way you've worded this is simply wrong.



Rich Parsons said:


> That being said, if she really wants to learn self defense, then she could go get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and learn to shot and learn to draw under fire and respond. Of course most people (males included) just do the minimum training to get the license.
> 
> If a pistol is not what one wants to carry, and sometimes is not allowed on a college or school campus then training with knives and grappling with knives is important. One one gets used to deploying a blade while on the ground and then using it they can then carry a pen or other improvised tool on them in areas where a knife cannot be legally carried.



Rich, this happened in Melbourne… in fact, the school the young lady attended is a branch dojo of my first school… and it happened about 5 minutes from a friend of mine's house… and I have to say that everything you're suggesting here is not legal here at all. You cannot own a gun here for reasons of self defence… there is no such thing as a "concealed carry" law or permit (other than some Law Enforcement… which is still not the same as having it for self defence)… and, for the record, the same type of laws apply to the carrying of blades (knives etc).

I get the perspective you're coming from, but when reality intervenes, you need to be aware that different areas will have a different take on things… and I'd also say that the deployment of a weapon in such circumstances would not necessarily be seen as "reasonable".


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....



Not really. I'm "instructor level" in other arts; I'm 55 years old and have chosen to focus my own training in other areas-my "taste" of BJJ was more than enough to compliment my judo and wrestling background, especially since I'm not interested in becoming any sort of BJJ instructor teacher-judo and Miyama ryu suit me just fine, at this point, and I got enough of a feel for the BJJ methodology to counter the "average" young punk with an "average" training level in it in a street encounter, which is all I was really interested in in the first place.....

BesidesI like the sound of _"ude garami_ , and American english is my native language, so "coil lock" also works, but _oomaplata_ just makes me giggle: it sounds like a children's breakfast cereal to me!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Never mind _go-_



_go-_



_gogoplata_















Hanzou said:


> Except for the transitions, leg locks, no-gi, leg takedowns, ankle picks, etc.



Transitions, strategy, quite a few angles-to be sure......as for the rest of it, well, as I've posted elsewhere, in most places, judo isn't what it once was: while it's difficult for some to imagine no-gi judo (it's a blind spot in Greg Jackson grappling training-most of those guys are suckers for judo throws) it's equally difficult for me to imagine *not* training no-gi judo. While the rules have pretty much eliminated leg takedowns and pick ups from judo competition, it's hard for me to imagine not teaching them......as for leg locks and ankle picks, well......like I said, *I'm 55*...it's hard for me to imagine being able to submit younger men who have trained for any length of time without having them in my repertoire,,,,,and hard to imagine not teaching anything that's in my repertoire.....most of my training is self-defense oriented, though, not for competition-I used to travel a bit, and still go to MMA gyms when I'm out of town, so it's not as though I don't wind up rolling with someone on occasion anyway....

Oh, and yeah-see above. I pretty much agree with almost everything Chris and K-Man have  said in regards to the OP and other posts regarding it.....except for it being in Australia, I'd generally agree with Rich as well, though most firearm training in the U.S. (and none of the required concealed carry training) doesn't deal with CQB, which this situation was-a lot of openly carrying *cops* wouldn't have been able (as in :"known how") to draw their firearm in this scenario......never mind a  civilian with just the training for carrying....


----------



## Steve

Thanks for sharing your *opinion*, Chris.  Mine is that some skill in ground fighting should be considered a pillar of any serious effort to learn self defense skills.   You don't need to be an expert, but should stick with it long enough to be proficient, which I would say is about high blue or purple level, or equivalent in another grappling art.

If you disagree, great.  Your *opinion* is noted.  I'm sharing my opinion, and don't believe that makes me arrogant.


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Not really. I'm "instructor level" in other arts; I'm 55 years old and have chosen to focus my own training in other areas-my "taste" of BJJ was more than enough to compliment my judo and wrestling background, especially since I'm not interested in becoming any sort of BJJ instructor teacher-judo and Miyama ryu suit me just fine, at this point, and I got enough of a feel for the BJJ methodology to counter the "average" young punk with an "average" training level in it in a street encounter, which is all I was really interested in in the first place.....
> 
> BesidesI like the sound of _"ude garami_ , and American english is my native language, so "coil lock" also works, but _oomaplata_ just makes me giggle: it sounds like a children's breakfast cereal to me!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never mind _go-_
> 
> 
> 
> _go-_
> 
> 
> 
> _gogoplata_



Uh, okay... My point was that purple belt comes after blue, and purple belts are permitted to teach classes. I don't think there's many Japanese-based MA schools allowing Green belts to teach.




> Transitions, strategy, quite a few angles-to be sure......as for the rest of it, well, as I've posted elsewhere, in most places, judo isn't what it once was: while it's difficult for some to imagine no-gi judo (it's a blind spot in Greg Jackson grappling training-most of those guys are suckers for judo throws) it's equally difficult for me to imagine *not* training no-gi judo. While the rules have pretty much eliminated leg takedowns and pick ups from judo competition, it's hard for me to imagine not teaching them......as for leg locks and ankle picks, well......like I said, *I'm 55*...it's hard for me to imagine being able to submit younger men who have trained for any length of time without having them in my repertoire,,,,,and hard to imagine not teaching anything that's in my repertoire.....most of my training is self-defense oriented, though, not for competition-I used to travel a bit, and still go to MMA gyms when I'm out of town, so it's not as though I don't wind up rolling with someone on occasion anyway....



That's great. I was making sure to point out that Bjj isn't "Just Judo" anymore. The rules neutering Judo to the ground, and Bjj absorbing every facet of grappling like a gigantic black hole make that more and more apparent everyday. When Bjj surpasses Judo in terms of number of practitioners in a few years, it will be interesting to see how that effects Judo. As it stands, many Bjj clubs offer Judo to their students, and actively combine it with wrestling and no-gi grappling. Maybe you should teach at your Bjj school? Might save you some money on classes. 



> Oh, and yeah-see above. I pretty much agree with almost everything Chris and K-Man have  said in regards to the OP and other posts regarding it.....



Is that supposed to be a surprise?


----------



## Hanzou

Shai Hulud said:


> I would then inquire into the content of her training regimen. Is she pressure/stress tested enough to mimic real-world scenarios beyond the safe world of the dojo? Or does she only train as a hobby or for health? It takes a different kind of mindset to make a fighter. In this I believe that it is not so much what you train, but how you train. It is your approach to training that will make the difference. I have met many elite martial artists here in the martial arts circles of St. Petersburg; a number of them only to be destroyed on the mats by Russian and/or Ex-Soviet military operators. If you want to win fights, you must train for fights, and sparring is not the only way to do that. ☺



I wouldn't argue that she isn't a fighter. She would need to be in order to sustain her resistance against that attack. I'm curious if a guard sweep or two couldn't have tilted that confrontation more in her favor, so she wasn't left screaming for help, needing a third party to intervene to end the assault.



> As far as Davis is concerned, she walked away from that confrontation unbowed, which I consider the immediate goal of self-defense.



Absolutely. Regardless of the pitfalls, she definitely came out on top in the end. I'm simply wary about anyone depending on third party intervention to save themselves. As was displayed many times, there's occasions where no one wants to get involved.


----------



## Chris Parker

Steve said:


> Thanks for sharing your *opinion*, Chris.  Mine is that some skill in ground fighting should be considered a pillar of any serious effort to learn self defense skills.   You don't need to be an expert, but should stick with it long enough to be proficient, which I would say is about high blue or purple level, or equivalent in another grappling art.
> 
> If you disagree, great.  Your *opinion* is noted.  I'm sharing my opinion, and don't believe that makes me arrogant.



List for me again your experience and qualifications in self defence training and teaching, Steve. Start with how much training (specific) you have received, and move onto your own teaching and structure of a self defence syllabus. Please note that saying that you have x-years of BJJ experience will not be taken as self defence training.

Then, I might take you back to the post I quoted… where you specifically stated that you felt that a blue or purple belt in BJJ was a "fundamental pillar of self defence instruction"… despite many, many forms of self defence training existing completely without it. And yeah, I do consider it rather arrogant to state that what you do, despite having no real self defence focus itself, is essential to self defence… which implies that without your system/approach, it's not good, adequate, real, whatever self defence.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> The rules neutering Judo to the ground, and Bjj absorbing every facet of grappling like a gigantic black hole make that more and more apparent everyday. When Bjj surpasses Judo in terms of number of practitioners in a few years, it will be interesting to see how that effects Judo.



Coming from the periphery of the judo orgs. in the U.S., I can tell you that judo seems to be pretty much running scared.....



Hanzou said:


> As it stands, many Bjj clubs offer Judo to their students, and actively combine it with wrestling and no-gi grappling. Maybe you should teach at your Bjj school? Might save you some money on classes.



See above: when I go commercial (since I've been teaching out of my barn for....well, a long time, now) I'll have actively combined BJJ, no-gi grappling and wrestling with my judo and other stuff.....(Hey, you got peanut butter on my chocolate!)

The other point being that I get BJJ training so infrequently at this point that I _might_ attain purple by 2018....if ever




Hanzou said:


> Is that supposed to be a surprise?



This is a forum-we're not the only two people in the conversation, right?


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> Coming from the periphery of the judo orgs. in the U.S., I can tell you that judo seems to be pretty much running scared.....



Unfortunate. It would be interesting to see how Judo would have evolved without all those artificial bottlenecks stifling its development.



> See above: when I go commercial (since I've been teaching out of my barn for....well, a long time, now) I'll have actively combined BJJ, no-gi grappling and wrestling with my judo.....(Hey, you got peanut butter on my chocolate!)



Why not add in your Kyokushin striking? Throws of Judo, ground fighting of Bjj, and the striking of Kyokushin would be a potent mix. Just don't do something lame and pretend that it's some lost Japanese Jujutsu ryuha, and call yourself "Soke".



> This is a forum-we're not the only two people in the conversation, right?



Of course.


----------



## oftheherd1

Hanzou said:


> I wouldn't argue that she isn't a fighter. She would need to be in order to sustain her resistance against that attack. I'm curious if a guard sweep or two couldn't have tilted that confrontation more in her favor, *so she wasn't left screaming for help, needing a third party to intervene to end the assault.*
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Regardless of the pitfalls, she definitely came out on top in the end. I'm simply wary about anyone depending on third party intervention to save themselves. As was displayed many times, there's occasions where no one wants to get involved.



So you don't teach in self defense, for people to yell for attention/assistance?  I would have thought that standard fare.  And I get the impression that she was gaining the upper hand before the third party showed up.  But if that is what ended it sooner, why criticize her?

No two self defense situations are likely to be the same.  I can think of things that I think might have been better (from my point of view).  However, again, we may conjecture as much as we wish, but we weren't there nor involved in the fight.  She was and she seems to have done something right; she wasn't raped nor killed and her attacker left, hopefully somewhat disconcerted.


----------



## Hanzou

Chris Parker said:


> More importantly, how arrogant is it to say that a modern sporting-heavy, limited application, limited context system, simply by having a specialisation of one small area of the minor area of combative defensive skills, would then be a fundamental aspect, or even a requirement? I'll put it this way… my self defence curriculum features no BJJ at all… ground work is perhaps 5% of the overall approach… it's almost opposite to BJJ there… and, bluntly… it's about a thousand times more advanced, suited, applicable, and detailed than anything I've seen in any BJJ approach, school, class, or material.



Would that self defense approach be Ninjutsu? 

Also wouldn't Karate also be considered a modern, sport-heavy, limited application, limited context system?


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Unfortunate. It would be interesting to see how Judo would have evolved without all those artificial bottlenecks stifling its development.



Well, you gotta remember that I started in judo when I was 8 years old.....frankly, the sporting aspect has made it devolve, if anything....





Hanzou said:


> Why not add in your Kyokushin striking? Throws of Judo, ground fighting of Bjj, and the striking of Kyokushin would be a potent mix.



Why didn't I think of that??!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Actually, the "ground fighting  of BJJ" *is* *B*asically *J*ust *J*udo...I've often wondered what the evolution of Brazilian judo would have been like if confined to the sporting rules of judo from the 50's, instead of the _vale tudo_ contests that it developed in.....

QUOTE="Hanzou, post: 1707228, member: 31336"] Just don't do something lame and pretend that it's some lost Japanese Jujutsu ryuha, and call yourself "Soke".[/QUOTE]







I always convey everything  I teach (and it's going to be more than just karate, judo and jujutsu) as what it is and where it came from....I've had enough of "pretending" in my professional career to last me a lifetime.....nor have I any interest in being the super-duper uber super soke of anything-I'd rather that people be able to continue instruction with someone else somewhere else after they leave me, or after I'm gone.....


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> List for me again your experience and qualifications in self defence training and teaching, Steve. Start with how much training (specific) you have received, and move onto your own teaching and structure of a self defence syllabus. Please note that saying that you have x-years of BJJ experience will not be taken as self defence training.
> 
> Then, I might take you back to the post I quoted… where you specifically stated that you felt that a blue or purple belt in BJJ was a "fundamental pillar of self defence instruction"… despite many, many forms of self defence training existing completely without it. And yeah, I do consider it rather arrogant to state that what you do, despite having no real self defence focus itself, is essential to self defence… which implies that without your system/approach, it's not good, adequate, real, whatever self defence.


Chris, I do think that a blue or purple belt in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction.  The equivalent in any grappling art is perfectly okay.  But, that said, the emphasis on being able to work from one's back is somewhat unique to BJJ.

Regarding the rest, Chris, I'm really not interested in comparing dick sizes with you.  I have never pretended to be any more than what I am.


----------



## Steve

elder999 said:


> Well, you gotta remember that I started in judo when I was 8 years old.....frankly, the sporting aspect has made it devolve, if anything....


 Judo is awesome.  Sambo, Catch wrestling, Shuai jiao...  lots of options.  You can get solid grappling training outside of BJJ.  Doesn't change my opinion that a grounding (no pun intended) in grappling should be considered essential.  And, in my opinion, it needs to come from a primarily grappling art. 

BJJ has the benefit over most of those others in that it emphasizes the guard.  But, I'm a fan of any sound, grappling instruction.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hanzou said:


> Would that self defense approach be Ninjutsu?



This may confuse you, but no, absolutely not. Although it does form the basis of our particular approach.



Hanzou said:


> Also wouldn't Karate also be considered a modern, sport-heavy, limited application, limited context system?



Depending on the system, yes. But, by the same token, I don't see anyone in this thread saying that karate is an essential aspect of self defence the way Steve suggested BJJ had to be there… he's since softened (slightly) to include any similar grappling to his estimation of a particular skill level… which simply shows a reduction of an understanding of "self defence" to one of the least important aspects in the first place.

That said… Steve… 



Steve said:


> Chris, I do think that a blue or purple belt in BJJ should be considered a fundamental pillar of self defense instruction.  The equivalent in any grappling art is perfectly okay.  But, that said, the emphasis on being able to work from one's back is somewhat unique to BJJ.



Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though? Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on? Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"? And how can you not see it as arrogant to suggest that anyone teaching self defence who hasn't attained your prescribed rank in your personal art isn't really qualified to teach self defence?



Steve said:


> Regarding the rest, Chris, I'm really not interested in comparing dick sizes with you.  I have never pretended to be any more than what I am.



Garbage, Steve, frankly. You've been offering your take on what's required for a self defence method here, you've had a number of threads about whether or not anyone can actually teach self defence, or be an expert in it, all of which stem from your lack of experience in this field. Simply by trying to offer what comes across as informed, or at least, cognisant insight on this topic, you're putting yourself up as someone who has understanding and knowledge… which, by your own admission, you don't. So you are pretending to be something you're not… and not for the first time.

But really, the point of my comments was to highlight that reality. You can say that you'd highly advise a strong base in, or at least grasp of the fundamentals of BJJ as being highly advantageous for the physical aspects of a self defence curriculum… but stating that it's a fundamental pillar of something you've never had any exposure to… that's where you're pretending to be something you're not. And honestly, if you don't see that (you didn't the last few times we went through this, so my hopes aren't very high…), then there's little that can be said.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Judo is awesome.  Sambo, Catch wrestling, Shuai jiao...  lots of options.  You can get solid grappling training outside of BJJ.  Doesn't change my opinion that a grounding (no pun intended) in grappling should be considered essential.  And, in my opinion, it needs to come from a primarily grappling art.
> 
> BJJ has the benefit over most of those others in that it emphasizes the guard.  But, I'm a fan of any sound, grappling instruction.



The guard is taking a back seat a bit with our guys in favour of turtle and standing up.
Because you are just not safe there any more.

Even bjjers are going off it a bit.


----------



## Hanzou

Chris Parker said:


> That said… Steve…
> 
> Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though? Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on? Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"? And how can you not see it as arrogant to suggest that anyone teaching self defence who hasn't attained your prescribed rank in your personal art isn't really qualified to teach self defence?



Well since my name was mentioned, and I share the same belief and rank as Steve, I'll happily interject;

Q:Why would the ability work from your back be a fundamental pillar of self defense?

A: Frankly, isn't it obvious? If things go south and you end up on your back, wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to work off your back and return to an advantageous position? Isn't the back the usual position that many women find themselves during a rape confrontation? I see people winding up on their backs constantly during street fights, and attacks. The young lady in this article wound up on her back right? 

Many people are ignorant to that type of fighting, which immediately shifts things to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

If you don't learn to fight off your back what do you do if you end up on your back? Just throw up your hands and give up? Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away? I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether. That has been disproven over and over again in a variety of contexts.

I agree with Steve that a blue belt level at least is required to gain any level of proficiency in ground fighting. Mainly because decent guard play is so vital to a solid ground game, and you don't get a solid guard game until you've spent time at blue belt IMO.


----------



## Buka

I've always been confused over the question of self defense and Martial Arts. Isn't every style of Martial Arts born from self defense techniques?


----------



## Buka

As for guard - I'll give up my guard when you pry it from my cold, dead legs.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> The guard is taking a back seat a bit with our guys in favour of turtle and standing up.
> Because you are just not safe there any more.
> 
> Even bjjers are going off it a bit.



LoL! Says who? We're definitely not going off of it. The Guard still forms the fundamental base of our fighting style. Further, its evolving pretty rapidly. It seems like someone is coming up with a new guard every month these days.

MMA is a different matter entirely though. I could see it taking a backseat there, since so many people train in it, and learn how to counter it. I am seeing a lot more of the rubber guard from 10th Planet in MMA these days though.

Or maybe I'm just seeing things....



Buka said:


> As for guard - I'll give up my guard when you pry it from my cold, dead legs.



LoL! Exactly.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hanzou said:


> Well since my name was mentioned, and I share the same belief and rank as Steve, I'll happily interject;



Okay.



Hanzou said:


> Q:Why would the ability work from your back be a fundamental pillar of self defense?
> 
> A: Frankly, isn't it obvious? If things go south and you end up on your back, wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to work off your back and return to an advantageous position? Isn't the back the usual position that many women find themselves during a rape confrontation? I see people winding up on their backs constantly during street fights, and attacks. The young lady in this article wound up on her back right?



Right… you're focusing on a minor aspect, and only one potential… as well as only one method of dealing with it. In other words, sure, having some idea of what might happen there is a good idea… but that's a far cry from saying that any level of BJJ is required.



Hanzou said:


> Many people are ignorant to that type of fighting, which immediately shifts things to your advantage if you know what you're doing.



There are many things that can be done to shift things to your advantage that have nothing to do with BJJ. Frankly, and this was a major part of my point to Steve, BJJ's answer is just one of many… and is hardly the most essential aspect to look to.



Hanzou said:


> If you don't learn to fight off your back what do you do if you end up on your back? Just throw up your hands and give up? Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away? I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether. That has been disproven over and over again in a variety of contexts.



And if you don't learn to disarm a shotgun, what to you do if they have one? Or a knife? Or there's six of them? Or if your hands are tied or cuffed? Or if the guy is a savate world champion? Or if? Or if? Or if???

Understand?

But realistically, you've already skipped over most of self defence to even get to this point.



Hanzou said:


> I agree with Steve that a blue belt level at least is required to gain any level of proficiency in ground fighting. Mainly because decent guard play is so vital to a solid ground game, and you don't get a solid guard game until you've spent time at blue belt IMO.



Sure… but is that really considered a fundamental pillar of a self defence syllabus? That's the question.



Buka said:


> I've always been confused over the question of self defense and Martial Arts. Isn't every style of Martial Arts born from self defense techniques?



Absolutely not! Almost none of them are, if you really look at them… and none are designed with modern, Western self defence in mind.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though? Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on? Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"? And how can you not see it as arrogant to suggest that anyone teaching self defence who hasn't attained your prescribed rank in your personal art isn't really qualified to teach self defence?



Everyone is qualified to teach self defence. There is no accepted standard. I could teach it tomorrow and it would be technically as valid as anything else.

So I honestly don't get the qualifications face off. And I am not sure how you can use whatever qualifications to drive home your point.

Now From my non qualified experience. If you cannot fight of the ground you are at the absolute mercy of the person who has put you there. So it might be wise to not be a complete goober on the ground if you want to be serious about the while self defence thing.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> Everyone is qualified to teach self defence. There is no accepted standard. I could teach it tomorrow and it would be technically as valid as anything else.



Valid… sure. Credible might be a different story… and realistic, informed could be something different again.



drop bear said:


> So I honestly don't get the qualifications face off. And I am not sure how you can use whatever qualifications to drive home your point.



My point wasn't my credentials, it was the basis of where Steve was coming from with his ideas.



drop bear said:


> Now From my non qualified experience. If you cannot fight of the ground you are at the absolute mercy of the person who has put you there. So it might be wise to not be a complete goober on the ground if you want to be serious about the while self defence thing.



Okay, one more time. I am not, in any way, suggesting that such information/knowledge/skill is not a good idea… it can be a very good one… my issue was with the idea that, unless there was at least a blue/purple belt BJJ in the mix, it was a flawed and lacking self defence approach.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> LoL! Says who? We're definitely not going off of it. The Guard still forms the fundamental base of our fighting style. Further, its evolving pretty rapidly. It seems like someone is coming up with a new guard every month these days.
> 
> MMA is a different matter entirely though. I could see it taking a backseat there, since so many people train in it, and learn how to counter it. I am seeing a lot more of the rubber guard from 10th Planet in MMA these days though.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just seeing things....



Mostly a combination of having to deal with punching and wrestlers learning how to do submissions.

Both of which make people not want to sit in guard too long.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style


Maybe they are just dealing with the superiority complex of the ocasional Bjj or MMA practitioner.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Valid… sure. Credible might be a different story… and realistic, informed could be something different again.
> 
> 
> 
> My point wasn't my credentials, it was the basis of where Steve was coming from with his ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, one more time. I am not, in any way, suggesting that such information/knowledge/skill is not a good idea… it can be a very good one… my issue was with the idea that, unless there was at least a blue/purple belt BJJ in the mix, it was a flawed and lacking self defence approach.



In which case play the ball and not the man. Ok lets pretend you me and Steve don't have the final word on self defence. And so rely on the actual reasons a bjj purple belt may or may not be the pillar of self defence.

Which by the way I have recently trained with a quality folk style wrestler. And the sd frame work of that is quite impressive. As it focusses less on guard and more on standing back up.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> In which case play the ball and not the man. Ok lets pretend you me and Steve don't have the final word on self defence. And so rely on the actual reasons a bjj purple belt may or may not be the pillar of self defence.



Er… I had. Go back and re-read.



drop bear said:


> Which by the way I have recently trained with a quality folk style wrestler. And the sd frame work of that is quite impressive. As it focusses less on guard and more on standing back up.



Which is still dealing only with the minor aspect of fighting as pertains to self defence.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Also wouldn't Karate also be considered a modern, sport-heavy, limited application, limited context system?


Not if it does not have any sporting aspects.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether.


Maybe I am reading these threads wrong but I don't recall anyone on here saying they are avoiding that range altogether.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> LoL! Wrong again. It takes on average 2 years to get a blue belt in Bjj.
> 
> Anyways.... back to topic.



Unfortunately not everywhere now a days.  I have met several "blue belts" and I use the term from my perspective laughingly who got it in around a year.  Yes, they were bad!


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> But, by the same token, I don't see anyone in this thread saying that karate is an essential aspect of self defence the way Steve suggested BJJ had to be there… he's since softened (slightly) to include any similar grappling to his estimation of a particular skill level… which simply shows a reduction of an understanding of "self defence" to one of the least important aspects in the first place.


I would say, in the same way that I believe grappling should be a pillar for self defense training, striking is also essential.  The third leg of the stool, for what it's worth, is what I'd call soft skills, including situational awareness, communication and conflict training, and things like that.  That's if you're really serious about it.  

Regarding your ******** insinuation about softening the message, I've written about this time and again, and have said repeatedly that I have a great respect for judo, sambo and other grappling arts.  In this case, if I failed to meet your rhetorical standard, tough ****.  Truly, Chris, you can shove your word by word nitpicking up your arrogant *******.  Truly. 


> That said… Steve…
> 
> Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though?


I said it because I mean it, Chris.  





> Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on?


My opinions are based upon my experiences, Chris. What I've read, what I've seen, what I've done.  





> Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"?


Truly, a blue or purple belt in BJJ these days is what I would consdier a strong understanding of the basics.  I don't think more than that is required.  Thanks for asking.  





> Garbage, Steve, frankly. You've been offering your take on what's required for a self defence method here, you've had a number of threads about whether or not anyone can actually teach self defence, or be an expert in it, all of which stem from your lack of experience in this field. Simply by trying to offer what comes across as informed, or at least, cognisant insight on this topic, you're putting yourself up as someone who has understanding and knowledge… which, by your own admission, you don't. So you are pretending to be something you're not… and not for the first time.


Wait a minute.  LOL.  YOU... are accusing me of being a fraud???  That's got to be the funniest thing I've read in a long time.  Seriously.  Could you go back and point out where I'm inflating my experience, alleging to be an expert on a topic or suggesting that my opinion is more than just that?  Because, every post of yours meets at least one of those criteria.





> But really, the point of my comments was to highlight that reality. You can say that you'd highly advise a strong base in, or at least grasp of the fundamentals of BJJ as being highly advantageous for the physical aspects of a self defence curriculum… but stating that it's a fundamental pillar of something you've never had any exposure to… that's where you're pretending to be something you're not. And honestly, if you don't see that (you didn't the last few times we went through this, so my hopes aren't very high…), then there's little that can be said.


Brother...


----------



## Buka

Chris Parker said:


> Absolutely not! Almost none of them are, if you really look at them… and none are designed with modern, Western self defence in mind.



Then why would there be kicks, punches, elbow strikes, knees, blocks, parries, footwork, evasion, yielding, locks, holds, escapes, counters etc in every style I've ever seen?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, that's why I said "average".
> 
> 
> 
> Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....



Another thing, some of us go back far enough in BJJ that we remember Blue Belts (some with stripes) being instructors and running training halls.  It was also closer to 2 1/2 to 3 years then to get a blue belt.  

However, back to the topic at hand.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away?


What she did was fight him off, there is nothing in the story that states that the passerby was the major factor in her surviving the encounter.


----------



## arnisador

Excuse a random anecdote, but this happened several months ago though the court case has just been resolved:
*Female kickboxer knocks out sex attacker who pounces as she walks home*

A woman kickboxer who used her martial arts skills to throttle a sex attacker has been praised by a judge[...]the woman, who has been kickboxing for two years and has also taken a self-defence course, turned the tables on Willis in the attack at 2am on August 31. 

She told the court how she first tried to break his arm with a hold she had been taught - and then got him in a scissor-grip with her legs, throttling him so forcibly that he passed out.​More general, my take on the original question is that it depends on what threat you're assuming the person will probably face. Grappling is not so great a choice if a attack by machete is the most likely danger but is an excellent choice if sexual assault is the expected threat. So, I read the question as: Should women's self-defense training focus primarily on the dangers of sexual assault? I suppose I'd answer that generally speaking it makes sense to place strong emphasis on that, yeah, and that moves ground-grappling way up the list.


----------



## Steve

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Unfortunately not everywhere now a days.  I have met several "blue belts" and I use the term from my perspective laughingly who got it in around a year.  Yes, they were bad!


 FWIW, after about a year, you're comfortable with the basics.  Even now, a high blue belt, purple belt has been training for somewhere at least around 3 years or so.


----------



## elder999

And this discussion kinda reminds me of the protracted one we had with the "pure winch chun" gal from Texas, (who, as it turned out, wasn't quite so much of either...) about whether wing chun practitioners could benefit from jujutsu training, and on the efficacy of BJJ in particular...

....believe it or not, Hanzou, I was on the "pro-BJJ" training side of that mud bath......frankly, it's hard not to see the benefits of grappling training for a woman-beyond whatever level it exists in a particular "striking art" (there are throws in karate, remember? Some grappling skills in wing chun, too...no "groundfighting" in either....) and fighting someone in your guard, well, as I said upthread, that's pretty much where a rapist wants to be......why not make it where he just _thinks_ it's where he wants to be?

So, grappling/groundfighting? Essential?-*Absolutely.* Groudfighting is an essential portion of proper, well-rounded self-defense training.........Is it "better," as you've originally posted? *Nah.* I've known women who can hit like -freight trains-never mind that whole "claw the crap out of his eyes" thing.....


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> One looks like kickboxing without the head shots, and the other is point sparring trash.



That speaks of a rather uneducated eye-it is, nonetheless, an example of people "fighting the way they do kata."


----------



## Drose427

elder999 said:


> That speaks of a rather uneducated eye-it is, nonetheless, an example of people "fighting the way they do kata."



You cant expect someone to be educated when they refuse to listen to those who know better, simply because the person disagrees.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> One looks like kickboxing without the head shots, and the other is point sparring trash.



That speaks of a rather uneducated eye-it is, nonetheless, an example of people "fighting the way they do kata."


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> I'm change the question slightly ...
> Q:Why would the ability work from your back *NOT* be a fundamental pillar of self defense?


Because the pillars of self defence would be things like awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and common sense. Fighting is a little thing hanging off somewhere of which getting up from the ground is very important, like one of the balls if you like. To me "working from your back" has no part of self defence unless you are referring to escaping from the ground and you don't need BJJ for that as evidenced by this young lady who it seems managed to regain her feet twice during this altercation without BJJ training.



Hanzou said:


> A: Frankly, isn't it obvious? If things go south and you end up on your back, wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to work off your back and return to an advantageous position? Isn't the back the usual position that many women find themselves during a rape confrontation? I see people winding up on their backs constantly during street fights, and attacks. The young lady in this article wound up on her back right?


Yep, and she got straight back up, right? Twice!



Hanzou said:


> Many people are ignorant to that type of fighting, which immediately shifts things to your advantage if you know what you're doing.


And many people are ignorant of the training of other styles which seems to have the same benefit for those who choose not to study BJJ.



Hanzou said:


> If you don't learn to fight off your back what do you do if you end up on your back? Just throw up your hands and give up? Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away? I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether. That has been disproven over and over again in a variety of contexts.


Twist the facts again. For a start she was yelling, not screaming. That is a fundamental instruction in self defence if you are being attacked. Most attackers don't want attention drawn to their attack, especially sexual predators. The lady was punching and kicking ... how strange is that? Fancy a karateka not punching and kicking. What an idiotic thing to put in a post.

If you end up on your back you do what this young lady was taught to do, and tested on in her blackbelt grading, and get back on your feet.

'Big bad' was already in trouble when assistance was offered. You make it sound like the guy coming to her aid was her saviour. He wasn't. It was almost over when he arrived. Read the accounts!

As for the notion that you can train yourself to avoid the ground, you are the only person anywhere that I have heard even suggest it is possible. You use that notion to put down those of us who train to try to avoid going to the ground, not that we don't also train to fight from the ground, just with a different focus.



Hanzou said:


> I agree with Steve that a blue belt level at least is required to gain any level of proficiency in ground fighting. Mainly because decent guard play is so vital to a solid ground game, and you don't get a solid guard game until you've spent time at blue belt IMO.


And I'll call BS on that unless you are training to fight a trained grappler and even then it is not really necessary. I have rolled with heaps of grapplers over the years with mixed results without any formal BJJ training. When it comes to untrained people, who are after all the type of person most of us are training to fight, basic ground training is all you will ever need.


----------



## Steve

K-man said:


> basic ground training is all you will ever need.


On this we agree.  What constitutes "basic" ground fighting is, I think, where we diverge.  I would say "basic" ground fighting is a couple years training with competent grapplers.  Dabbling with other dabblers isn't what I would recommend as a constructive way to spend your time.  If you're going to just mess around, I'd say spend your valuable elsewhere.  You'd be no better off having dabbled with grappling than you would be without any grappling training at all, and may be worse off if you're developing bad habits resulting from unrealistic or overly complex techniques.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Which by the way I have recently trained with a quality folk style wrestler. And the sd frame work of that is quite impressive.* As it focusses less on guard and more on standing back up.*


Funny that. Exactly what most of us have been saying all along.


----------



## K-man

Buka said:


> Then why would there be kicks, punches, elbow strikes, knees, blocks, parries, footwork, evasion, yielding, locks, holds, escapes, counters etc in every style I've ever seen?


I think if you look at self defence in its totality, successful SD is not fighting. Therefore if you're not fighting you are not using your kicks, punches etc. When you SD fails, as it did in this case with the young lady walking along an unpopulated pathway with headphones, you then utilise every fighting skill you have. 

I'm not in total agreement with Chris' statement but I do understand where he is coming from.


----------



## K-man

Steve said:


> On this we agree.  What constitutes "basic" ground fighting is, I think, where we diverge.  I would say "basic" ground fighting is a couple years training with competent grapplers.  Dabbling with other dabblers isn't what I would recommend as a constructive way to spend your time.


Look, to be blunt. I have yet to have an untrained person best me on the floor. I get big strong guys from all over the place with varying level of fighting ability coming to my classes. I have been able to get away from *every* single one for as long as I have been teaching martial arts and I am anything up to 50 years older than them.

Spending two years training to grapple when grappling is not your focus is frankly a huge waste of time. The chances of me needing to use grappling skills in real life are very small. Only once have I needed to use my skills on the ground where I restrained the guy until police arrived. That I managed without effort and without specialised grappling training. Now that I am retired from that environment I don't envisage me needing to fight on the ground at all.



Steve said:


> If you're going to just mess around, I'd say spend your valuable elsewhere.  You'd be no better off having dabbled with grappling than you would be without any grappling training at all, and may be worse off if you're developing bad habits resulting from unrealistic or overly complex techniques.


Now that is condescending nonsense. So you are saying what I teach is flawed yet you have never seen what I teach. Most of what I teach comes straight from BJJ tested against BJJ guys. Nothing complex at all and little to do with grappling on the ground, all designed to get back up off the ground. I don't dabble in grappling.


----------



## Steve

Nevermind.  Kman, you're just not worth the time.   Good luck to you in your training.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Because the pillars of self defence would be things like awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and common sense. Fighting is a little thing hanging off somewhere of which getting up from the ground is very important, like one of the balls if you like. To me "working from your back" has no part of self defence unless you are referring to escaping from the ground and you don't need BJJ for that as evidenced by this young lady who it seems managed to regain her feet twice during this altercation without BJJ training.
> 
> Yep, and she got straight back up, right? Twice!



I find it interesting that this young lady's story keeps changing, and keeps making her look more and more in control of the situation. I suppose the first iteration didn't shine a very favorable light on her 15 years of martial arts training.

That said, I'm sticking to the version of events presented in the article posted in the OP. Not the latter articles which seems to point to her trying to save face.



> And many people are ignorant of the training of other styles which seems to have the same benefit for those who choose not to study BJJ.



I think this comes down to differences of culture and continent. Here in the states, plenty of people know about martial arts. Its part of popular culture here thanks to Bruce Lee, Power Rangers, and MMA. If you consider boxing and wrestling a martial art, then MA is taught throughout the high school system. People are pretty knowledgable about how to fight on their feet. Someone throwing a crane kick ala the Karate Kid isn't going to surprise anyone.

I would even argue that Bjj is becoming less of an unknown due to the popularity of MMA over here. The main difference between Bjj and striking though is that its much harder to copy Bjj than it is to copy a kick or a punch. You can throw a kick or a punch on an inanimate object to gauge its effectiveness, but with grappling you need a partner to gauge its effectiveness.



> Twist the facts again. For a start she was yelling, not screaming. That is a fundamental instruction in self defence if you are being attacked.





> A stranger heard Ms Davis' *screams for help and came to her aid, scaring off the attacker.*
> Read more at  I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au



Again, the changes to the original story are becoming quite remarkable.



> If you end up on your back you do what this young lady was taught to do, and tested on in her blackbelt grading, and get back on your feet.
> 
> 'Big bad' was already in trouble when assistance was offered. You make it sound like the guy coming to her aid was her saviour. He wasn't. It was almost over when he arrived. Read the accounts!



Again, based on the original article, he was her savior. I find it hard to believe that she would be screaming for help if she had her attacker on the ropes.



> As for the notion that you can train yourself to avoid the ground, you are the only person anywhere that I have heard even suggest it is possible. You use that notion to put down those of us who train to try to avoid going to the ground, not that we don't also train to fight from the ground, just with a different focus.
> 
> And I'll call BS on that unless you are training to fight a trained grappler and even then it is not really necessary. I have rolled with heaps of grapplers over the years with mixed results without any formal BJJ training. When it comes to untrained people, who are after all the type of person most of us are training to fight, basic ground training is all you will ever need.



Well again, this is probably a difference of continent and culture at work. Here in the states, wrestling and American Football are incredibly popular sports among young teenage boys. Both of those sports teach grappling and tackles, as well as pinning. Couple that with strength training inherent in these sports, and the rising popularity of MMA among that same demographic, and you have a recipe for a skilled grappler giving you trouble. Again, probably not prevalent in Australia, but quite a potential issue here in the states.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> I think this comes down to differences of culture and continent. Here in the states, plenty of people know about martial arts. Its part of popular culture. If you consider boxing and wrestling a martial art, then MA is taught throughout the high school system. People are pretty knowledgable about how to fight on their feet. Someone throwing a crane kick ala the Karate Kid isn't going to surprise anyone.
> 
> I would even argue that Bjj is becoming less of an unknown due to the popularity of MMA over here. The main difference between Bjj and striking though is that its much harder to copy Bjj than it is to copy a kick or a punch. You can throw a kick or a punch on an inanimate object to gauge its effectiveness, but with grappling you need a partner to gauge its effectiveness.
> 
> Well again, this is probably a difference of continent and culture at work. Here in the states, wrestling and American Football are incredibly popular sports among young teenage boys. Both of those sports teach grappling and tackles, as well as pinning. Couple that with strength training inherent in this sports, and the rising popularity of MMA among that same demographic, and you have a recipe for a skilled grappler giving your trouble. Again, probably not prevalent in Australia, but quite a potential issue here in the states.


this has been pointed out in the past, and remains relevant.   In the high schools around here, in addition to wrestling, judo is also offered as a sport.   Grappling is pretty common.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> this has been pointed out in the past, and remains relevant.   In the high schools around here, in addition to wrestling, judo is also offered as a sport.   Grappling is pretty common.



Grappling is even within American Football. In fact, some football players take wrestling in order to improve their tackling ability. Wrestling is one of the best grappling systems on the planet, and kids get to learn it for free in American secondary schools.


----------



## namadesk

Although any martial arts training is better than no training at all.  I personally think grappling is better suited for female self defense.  With grappling being an art focused on smaller people dealing with larger people, as well as the fact that since it happens on the ground, it is the same place most women would end up in a physical assault situation, I think it would better prepare women for an attack.

Frank
North Augusta Martial Arts


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Funny that. Exactly what most of us have been saying all along.



Which was my point. The difference is the application is better. Because it works on trained guys. And some of it is pretty basic concepts.

So if you ever get a chance to get a look at some of these guys take it because it will fire off some light bulbs.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Grappling is even within American Football. In fact, some football players take wrestling in order to improve their tackling ability. Wrestling is one of the best grappling systems on the planet, and kids get to learn it for free in American secondary schools.



A rugby player could hold a guy down as well. And they like to be big.
More QLD than Melbourne though.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Now that is condescending nonsense. So you are saying what I teach is flawed yet you have never seen what I teach. Most of what I teach comes straight from BJJ tested against BJJ guys. Nothing complex at all and little to do with grappling on the ground, all designed to get back up off the ground. I don't dabble in grappling.



You do bjj techniques test against bjj guys but you don't grapple?

Which honestly sounds like half utilized grappling and not a fast track to ground defence.


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Well again, this is probably a difference of continent and culture at work. Here in the states, wrestling and American Football are incredibly popular sports among young teenage boys. Both of those sports teach grappling and tackles, as well as pinning. Couple that with strength training inherent in these sports, and the rising popularity of MMA among that same demographic, and you have a recipe for a skilled grappler giving you trouble. Again, probably not prevalent in Australia, but quite a potential issue here in the states.



Im sorry but this a fallacy

Idk where you live in the states, but im from Ohio.

My state is pretty regularly considered in the high end of HS wrestling in the country.

Calculating the Top 25 High School Wrestling States 

My Junior year, we sent our whole roster other than myself due to injury and 2 other guys to state.

This past season we had go to day 2 or 3 at state (Ive graduated so I wasnt following it so closely)

I've seen A LOT of my teammates fight,

Only ones EVER gone to the ground,

Whats more is  numbers dont even line up to create the scenario youre describing a real threat.

in my are of ohio, there are 4 HS's that are always expected to go well (one's even been invited to tourneys in places like nevada and Pennsylvania). Heres a rough estimate of the size of their student pop, and amount of wrestlers

Belpre High:  while I was there we never had more than 20, usually just enough for a full roster once season started

Parkersburg High: usually had about 25-30, enough that they usually could have 2 full teams, but not always

South Parkersburg high: never had fewer than two teams

Warren High: about the same as Belpre

Now lets look at average student pops here:

When I went to Belpre, we had fewer than 300

Warrens just as small

Parkerburg South :Parkersburg South High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia (1565 enrollment)

Parkersburg High: 1848

with 30 wrestlers, the wrestlers account for  roughly 2% of the student pop of at South and PHS.


There are more than 40,000 people in this area. Most of those kids will move out of the area for various reasons, when theyre already a miniscule amount.

Even with the popularity of MMA/BJJ, you know how many people are students are at the BJJ school in the area? (which is the only place to get grappling training here outside of HS wrestling teams)

21 (give or take)

Football is a poor example, but it doesnt give any of the ground control stuff wrestling does, just teaches you how to tackle and use your weight.

This idea that youre more likely to face an experienced grappler because this is american and MMA and Wrestling and BJJ are popular is a bout as statistically accurate as the famed "99% of fights end up on the ground" Gracie stat.

Edit: Even more stuff of people placing OH as one of the toughest states for wrestling

What is the strongest weakest state for high school wrestling Forum Topic FloWrestling

Ohio New Jersey Have Nation s Best Wrestlers - MaxPreps

Which state has the best high school wrestling - Illinois Matmen Forums

and to clarify, the parkesburg schools are right across the river, less than 5 mins away from the other 2, the area of quality wrestling reaches waaaaaay across the OH WV area


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Which was my point. The difference is the application is better. Because it works on trained guys. And some of it is pretty basic concepts.
> 
> So if you ever get a chance to get a look at some of these guys take it because it will fire off some light bulbs.


Which is why I take every opportunity to learn from those guys. My primary training partner for five years prior to his shoulder damage and subsequent surgery is a BJJ blackbelt. As I said, most of my groundwork is unashamedly lifted from BJJ, just that I didn't have to study BJJ to get the knowledge.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> A rugby player could hold a guy down as well. And they like to be big.
> More QLD than Melbourne though.


Not really. I think the AFL guys do a lot of that sort of training as well.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> You do bjj techniques test against bjj guys but you don't grapple?
> 
> Which honestly sounds like half utilized grappling and not a fast track to ground defence.


The ground fighting in Krav is pretty much BJJ. As I repeat time after time, it is to escape the ground, not fight on the ground to try and achieve a submission. I have never said I don't grapple.


----------



## Steve

K-man said:


> Which is why I take every opportunity to learn from those guys. My primary training partner for five years prior to his shoulder damage and subsequent surgery is a BJJ blackbelt. As I said, most of my groundwork is unashamedly lifted from BJJ, just that I didn't have to study BJJ to get the knowledge.


Who's that, out of curiosity?


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> The ground fighting in Krav is pretty much BJJ. As I repeat time after time, it is to escape the ground, not fight on the ground to try and achieve a submission. I have never said I don't grapple.



Well you did. From memory it was something like "I don't dabble in grappling" or something. I could find the quote.

Otherwise  I would suggest you do both and just prioritize it a bit. Considering that to train the stand up and escapes you pretty much have to be doing submission grappling anyway.

Even when we gauntlet drill. Which is almost dedicated to escapes we need guys who can grapple to hold you down otherwise what is the point?

Even bjj you can stand back up. I think you might even get a point or something something. (I don't know the rules)


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Which is why I take every opportunity to learn from those guys. My primary training partner for five years prior to his shoulder damage and subsequent surgery is a BJJ blackbelt. As I said, most of my groundwork is unashamedly lifted from BJJ, just that I didn't have to study BJJ to get the knowledge.



Well start looking at mma. It will suit you a bit better. I will hunt down a decent school in melbs.

Otherwise go see rob at integrated in the sunnycoast. Or a guy called geordie in Brisbane (I will hunt down where he trains) who are both pretty brilliant at eclectic grappling while also being tolerant of kravers having their own ideas.

Which I think are wrong,need to get shown why it is wrong. But wont forcefully drop you on your head to do it.


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Im sorry but this a fallacy
> 
> Idk where you live in the states, but im from Ohio.
> 
> My state is pretty regularly considered in the high end of HS wrestling in the country.
> 
> Calculating the Top 25 High School Wrestling States
> 
> My Junior year, we sent our whole roster other than myself due to injury and 2 other guys to state.
> 
> This past season we had go to day 2 or 3 at state (Ive graduated so I wasnt following it so closely)
> 
> I've seen A LOT of my teammates fight,
> 
> Only ones EVER gone to the ground,
> 
> Whats more is  numbers dont even line up to create the scenario youre describing a real threat.
> 
> in my are of ohio, there are 4 HS's that are always expected to go well (one's even been invited to tourneys in places like nevada and Pennsylvania). Heres a rough estimate of the size of their student pop, and amount of wrestlers
> 
> Belpre High:  while I was there we never had more than 20, usually just enough for a full roster once season started
> 
> Parkersburg High: usually had about 25-30, enough that they usually could have 2 full teams, but not always
> 
> South Parkersburg high: never had fewer than two teams
> 
> Warren High: about the same as Belpre
> 
> Now lets look at average student pops here:
> 
> When I went to Belpre, we had fewer than 300
> 
> Warrens just as small
> 
> Parkerburg South :Parkersburg South High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia (1565 enrollment)
> 
> Parkersburg High: 1848
> 
> with 30 wrestlers, the wrestlers account for  roughly 2% of the student pop of at South and PHS.
> 
> 
> There are more than 40,000 people in this area. Most of those kids will move out of the area for various reasons, when theyre already a miniscule amount.
> 
> Even with the popularity of MMA/BJJ, you know how many people are students are at the BJJ school in the area? (which is the only place to get grappling training here outside of HS wrestling teams)
> 
> 21 (give or take)
> 
> Football is a poor example, but it doesnt give any of the ground control stuff wrestling does, just teaches you how to tackle and use your weight.
> 
> This idea that youre more likely to face an experienced grappler because this is american and MMA and Wrestling and BJJ are popular is a bout as statistically accurate as the famed "99% of fights end up on the ground" Gracie stat.
> 
> Edit: Even more stuff of people placing OH as one of the toughest states for wrestling
> 
> What is the strongest weakest state for high school wrestling Forum Topic FloWrestling
> 
> Ohio New Jersey Have Nation s Best Wrestlers - MaxPreps
> 
> Which state has the best high school wrestling - Illinois Matmen Forums
> 
> and to clarify, the parkesburg schools are right across the river, less than 5 mins away from the other 2, the area of quality wrestling reaches waaaaaay across the OH WV area



Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly;

You're saying that you're not more likely to encounter a skilled grappler in America because there wasn't a lot of wrestlers in your small town in Ohio? Um... Okay. 

Here's something that would be interesting to look up; How many high school students in Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo participated in wrestling programs? When we've figured out that number, we can then look at how many students in the three largest American cities participated in wrestling programs.

Here's the point; In the US wrestling/grappling is very popular. Kids grow up watching fake wrestling on television. People enjoy watching grappling in MMA competitions. The US is driving Bjj's explosive growth in popularity. High school students can participate in wrestling programs for free. MMA programs are popping up in urban rec centers at low tuition rates. People who don't formally train still participate in underground backyard wrestling groups. Our top sport features gigantic guys tackling each other and pinning them down. etc.

Because of all of that, I'm more likely to encounter someone who has had some training, or background in grappling. That's simple logic.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly;
> 
> You're saying that you're not more likely to encounter a skilled grappler in America because there wasn't a lot of wrestlers in your small town in Ohio? Um... Okay.
> 
> Here's something that would be interesting to look up; How many high school students in Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo participated in wrestling programs? When we've figured out that number, we can then look at how many students in the three largest American cities participated in wrestling programs.
> 
> Here's the point; In the US wrestling/grappling is very popular. Kids grow up watching fake wrestling on television. People enjoy watching grappling in MMA competitions. The US is driving Bjj's explosive growth in popularity. High school students can participate in wrestling programs for free. MMA programs are popping up in urban rec centers at low tuition rates. People who don't formally train still participate in underground backyard wrestling groups. Our top sport features gigantic guys tackling each other and pinning them down. etc.
> 
> Because of all of that, I'm more likely to encounter someone who has had some training, or background in grappling. That's simple logic.



By the way. Which bjjers were saying topside and stand up for SD? 

Geordie here mentioned it when he was in.

BLACK DRAGON KAI Instructors

K man he is a guy you should at least train with once before you die. And he is a nice guy.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Well start looking at mma. It will suit you a bit better. I will hunt down a decent school in melbs.
> 
> Otherwise go see rob at integrated in the sunnycoast. Or a guy called geordie in Brisbane (I will hunt down where he trains) who are both pretty brilliant at eclectic grappling while also being tolerant of kravers having their own ideas.
> 
> Which I think are wrong,need to get shown why it is wrong. But wont forcefully drop you on your head to do it.


Thanks for the thought but I do have top people readily available if I was interested. I am already training and/or teaching three styles, four if you include the occasional Systema. I haven't time for more. BJJ would of interest if I had time, MMA is of absolutely no interest at all.

I have several friends with serious injuries from grappling and at nearly 67 I have no desire to become intimately acquainted with an orthopaedic specialist.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Thanks for the thought but I do have top people readily available if I was interested. I am already training and/or teaching three styles, four if you include the occasional Systema. I haven't time for more. BJJ would of interest if I had time, MMA is of absolutely no interest at all.
> 
> I have several friends with serious injuries from grappling and at nearly 67 I have no desire to become intimately acquainted with an orthopaedic specialist.



Why on earth would you preach grapple to stand up and then do bjj to the level you do it and not mma?

Mma is the stuff their submissions while you are striking and escaping because you are never going to learn enough bjj you out bjj a bjjer version of grappling.

That is just madness I tell you.

By the way who is your expert?


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly;
> 
> You're saying that you're not more likely to encounter a skilled grappler in America because there wasn't a lot of wrestlers in your small town in Ohio? Um... Okay.
> 
> Here's something that would be interesting to look up; How many high school students in Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo participated in wrestling programs? When we've figured out that number, we can then look at how many students in the three largest American cities participated in wrestling programs.
> 
> Here's the point; In the US wrestling/grappling is very popular. Kids grow up watching fake wrestling on television. People enjoy watching grappling in MMA competitions. The US is driving Bjj's explosive growth in popularity. High school students can participate in wrestling programs for free. MMA programs are popping up in urban rec centers at low tuition rates. People who don't formally train still participate in underground backyard wrestling groups. Our top sport features gigantic guys tackling each other and pinning them down. etc.
> 
> Because of all of that, I'm more likely to encounter someone who has had some training, or background in grappling. That's simple logic.



No that wasnt my point......

But for your sake, we'll pull numbers from those places, specifically Columbus, Dayton, and Cleavland because we wrestled them.

Franklin Heights High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We only wrestled them at a big tourney, but they didnt even have a filled roster with a student body of 1107

Lincoln-West High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

we scrimmaged them and they had an unfilled roster as well, but not being a match kids may just not have showed.

Dont remember the school we wrestled in DAyton

My point Hanzou, is that the popularity of wrestling doesnt correlate to an increase in practitioners in the degree youre describing.

Even at the bigger schools, which you can generally find rosters for on various preseason forums, the number of wrestlers is an atrocious minority.

I mean god, have you ever been to a bar or buffalo wild wings on a fight night?

If you ask around, very very few people train.

Your average MMA fan wont train in ANYTHING.

You have a higher likely hood of being victim of a violent crime in the cities you mentioned than to get into a braawl with a wrestler.

Anyone who has wrestled knows how the small the pool of those who trained is.

AS for your "backyard" wrestling point.

Teaching oneself from youtube videos and reenactments does not make one a trained grappler bub.....But im sure you know more about it than I do....Im just waiting for my background check and interview to coach next year.....But Im off tomorrow so maybe I'll spend some time on youtube and get my BB in BJJ XD

If thats someones " Grappling  background" They arent going to be dominating anyone any time soon....


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> Someone throwing a crane kick ala the Karate Kid isn't going to surprise anyone.



It is such an unlikely event in the middle of a fight it just might surprise someone.



Hanzou said:


> The main difference between Bjj and striking though is that its much harder to copy Bjj than it is to copy a kick or a punch.



I think you underestimate the level of training it requires to learn how to strike properly.



Hanzou said:


> You can throw a kick or a punch on an inanimate object to *gauge its effectiveness*,



For several threads now you have been saying things to the effect of you need to actually punch people in an alive manner to do just that.



Hanzou said:


> but with grappling you need a partner to gauge its effectiveness.



You still need a partner to learn how to hit a moving target and how to get through someone's defenses without significantly compromising your own..


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> No that wasnt my point......
> 
> But for your sake, we'll pull numbers from those places, specifically Columbus, Dayton, and Cleavland because we wrestled them.
> 
> Franklin Heights High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> We only wrestled them at a big tourney, but they didnt even have a filled roster with a student body of 1107
> 
> Lincoln-West High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> we scrimmaged them and they had an unfilled roster as well, but not being a match kids may just not have showed.
> 
> Dont remember the school we wrestled in DAyton



Two high schools account for all the student wrestling practicioners in Ohios largest cities?



> My point Hanzou, is that the popularity of wrestling doesnt correlate to an increase in practitioners in the degree youre describing.



Isn't a sport popular _because_ it has a lot of practicioners?



> You have a higher likely hood of being victim of a violent crime in the cities you mentioned than to get into a braawl with a wrestler.



Where did I say differently? I said that in the US you're more likely to come across someone with a background in grappling than in some other places, mainly due to the popularity of grappling arts in the US.




> AS for your "backyard" wrestling point.
> 
> Teaching oneself from youtube videos and reenactments does not make one a trained grappler bub.....But im sure you know more about it than I do....Im just waiting for my background check and interview to coach next year.....But Im off tomorrow so maybe I'll spend some time on youtube and get my BB in BJJ XD
> 
> If thats someones " Grappling  background" They arent going to be dominating anyone any time soon....



When you have some spare time, head over to Workd Star Hip Hop and check out their street fight videos. Here you have people who have developed fairly strong fighting skills simply from watching professional fights, and then practicing it on others. They would potentially have an edge on trained martial artists who come from disciplines lacking a strong fighting background.


----------



## Steve

RTKDCMB said:


> I think you underestimate the level of training it requires to learn how to strike properly.


So obviously true.  If everyone would acknowledge that the same is true for grappling, we'd be in great shape and the tenor of the conversation would probably be a lot more constructive.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Steve said:


> So obviously true.  If everyone would acknowledge that the same is true for grappling, we'd be in great shape and the tenor of the conversation would probably be a lot more constructive.


In both grappling and striking there are some things that are hard and some things that are easy to learn and become skilled in. For example in striking afront kick is relatively easy to learn and to get power out of but a side kick is a lot harder.


----------



## Flying Crane

Thirteen pages of discussion centered around Monday-morning-quarterbacking this young woman's assault, in which she successfully defended herself.  But apparently she successfully defended herself all wrong.

My god, how disgusting


----------



## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Two high schools account for all the student wrestling practicioners in Ohios largest cities?
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't a sport popular _because_ it has a lot of practicioners?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say differently? I said that in the US you're more likely to come across someone with a background in grappling than in some other places, mainly due to the popularity of grappling arts in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you have some spare time, head over to Workd Star Hip Hop and check out their street fight videos. Here you have people who have developed fairly strong fighting skills simply from watching professional fights, and then practicing it on others. They would potentially have an edge on trained martial artists who come from disciplines lacking a strong fighting background.



No, but theyre two of the most populated schools in those areas.

Very few wrestlers.

While other schools bring in one hundred or two hundred more wrestlers, theyre bring ing 500 or 600 non wrestlers.

This idea that wrestlers are common because wrestling is a hs sport is simply wrong.

 And no, it doesnt

Again, millions of people in the US WATCH MMA/Boxing, very small percetnage of that group actually train.

Ive seen worldstar.

If you think those people have "farily strong fighting skills".....stick to grappling bud


----------



## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> No, but theyre two of the most populated schools in those areas.
> 
> Very few wrestlers.
> 
> While other schools bring in one hundred or two hundred more wrestlers, theyre bring ing 500 or 600 non wrestlers.
> 
> This idea that wrestlers are common because wrestling is a hs sport is simply wrong.



Where did I say that wrestlers are common? I said that you're more likely to run into a skilled grappler in the states because wrestling, MMA, and Bjj are popular here.



> And no, it  doesnt



*pop·u·lar*

\ˈpä-pyə-lər\_adjective_
: liked or enjoyed by many people

: accepted, followed, used, or done by many people

: of, relating to, or coming from most of the people in a country, society, or group

Popular Definition of popular by Merriam-Webster





> Again, millions of people in the US WATCH MMA/Boxing, very small percetnage of that group actually train.



Last I checked, there were over a million American MMA practicioners. Dont feel like looking up the source right now though....



> Ive seen worldstar.
> 
> If you think those people have "farily strong fighting skills".....stick to grappling bud








Considering that scenes like that can be found in Karate and TKD locations around the country, I most definitey will.


----------



## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> Considering that scenes like that can be found in Karate and TKD locations around the country, I most definitey will.



Curious, would you (or anyone else) consider a youtube clip where a grappling person is unable to execute a leg lock, grab, kimura, arm bar, or any maneuver for that matter, in the same theme as a strike that doesn't land correctly or doesn't break a board or doesn't knock a person out at any level? It's really the equivalent of the tubes your posting right? Or maybe a person drilling that's not quite getting the technique correct.

I'm assuming your showing these clips to make a point that they are not effective?


----------



## Flying Crane

jezr74 said:


> Curious, would you (or anyone else) consider a youtube clip where a grappling person is unable to execute a leg lock, grab, kimura, arm bar, or any maneuver for that matter, in the same theme as a strike that doesn't land correctly or doesn't break a board or doesn't knock a person out at any level? It's really the equivalent of the tubes your posting right? Or maybe a person drilling that's not quite getting the technique correct.
> 
> I'm assuming your showing these clips to make a point that they are not effective?


Hanzou is showing these clips because the only way he can feel good about himself is by tearing down others.

Is that not obvious?


----------



## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> Curious, would you (or anyone else) consider a youtube clip where a grappling person is unable to execute a leg lock, grab, kimura, arm bar, or any maneuver for that matter, in the same theme as a strike that doesn't land correctly or doesn't break a board or doesn't knock a person out at any level? It's really the equivalent of the tubes your posting right? Or maybe a person drilling that's not quite getting the technique correct.



If you're a black belt in Karate or TKD, and you can't break a board or capable of doing competent-looking kata, then your instruction was seriously lacking.

The same would apply to a Judo, Bjj, or Sambo black belt who couldn't utilize proper throws, chokes, takedowns, or leg locks. However, I don't honestly see that ever occurring since those arts emphasize a high level of hard sparring. There's simply no way you're advancing through the ranks in Bjj for example if you can't do the basics.



> I'm assuming your showing these clips to make a point that they are not effective?



the techniques are fine. It's the people doing the technique that's the problem, along with MA teachers simply not caring about the proficiency of their students.

Btw, here's part 2;


----------



## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> If you're a black belt in Karate or TKD, and you can't break a board or capable of doing competent-looking kata, then your instruction was seriously lacking.
> 
> The same would apply to a Judo, Bjj, or Sambo black belt who couldn't utilize proper throws, chokes, takedowns, or leg locks. However, I don't honestly see that ever occurring since those arts emphasize a high level of hard sparring. There's simply no way you're advancing through the ranks in Bjj for example if you can't do the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> the techniques are fine. It's the people doing the technique that's the problem, along with MA teachers simply not caring about the proficiency of their students.
> 
> Btw, here's part 2;


But I can see endless accounts of high level bjj people failing to apply a technique when they roll. In competition only one person can win, so someone had to fail. 

I don't think it's possible for any person to run at 100% 100% of the time. We are human after all.


----------



## K-man

Flying Crane said:


> Hanzou is showing these clips because the only way he can feel good about himself is by tearing down others.
> 
> Is that not obvious?


Good to see you've had a change of heart. You gave me a dislike sometime back for pointing out the same thing.


----------



## Flying Crane

K-man said:


> Good to see you've had a change of heart. You gave me a dislike sometime back for pointing out the same thing.


If I did, then it was purely an accident.  That happened once on another thread, apparently I hit the dislike button without realizing it while scrolling thru on my iPhone.  Must have happened on one of yours too.  I NEVER would have disagreed with you on that, and I believe I have never intentionally given a disagree to anyone.  I just tend to not give the negative marks on threads.

The wonders of technology.  Sometimes they screw us up.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> If you're a black belt in Karate or TKD, and you can't break a board or capable of doing competent-looking kata, then your instruction was seriously lacking.
> 
> The same would apply to a Judo, Bjj, or Sambo black belt who couldn't utilize proper throws, chokes, takedowns, or leg locks. However, I don't honestly see that ever occurring since those arts emphasize a high level of hard sparring. There's simply no way you're advancing through the ranks in Bjj for example if you can't do the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> the techniques are fine. It's the people doing the technique that's the problem, along with MA teachers simply not caring about the proficiency of their students.
> 
> Btw, here's part 2;


Sooooo... You show us a couple clips of poor examples...do you think we all don't know that there are plenty of crap martial artists out there?  Hardly earth-shattering.  Gotta ask:  how does this affect the fact that the young woman successfully defended herself?


----------



## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> But I can see endless accounts of high level bjj people failing to apply a technique when they roll. In competition only one person can win, so someone had to fail.
> 
> I don't think it's possible for any person to run at 100% 100% of the time. We are human after all.



A poor comparison, since there's a difference between competition and demonstration. There's also a difference between a living, breathing person of equal skill, and a board held up at the proper angle for you to hit it.

For example, I have no issue with this;






Saying that those people in the pervious videos are equivalent to the people in the video above is pretty silly (and fairly insulting).


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> Sooooo... You show us a couple clips of poor examples...do you think we all don't know that there are plenty of crap martial artists out there?  Hardly earth-shattering.



But no less unfortunate.



> Gotta ask:  how does this affect the fact that the young woman successfully defended herself?



There are martial arts out there that lull people into a false sense of security.

The girl in the OP successfully defended herself by screaming loud enough for a third party to come to her rescue. Fortunately for her, someone was nearby that heard her cries for help. Perhaps if she knew a choke she wouldn't have had to depend on the assistance of someone else? Maybe a triangle choke? 

Something to think about......


----------



## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> A poor comparison, since there's a difference between competition and demonstration. There's also a difference between a living, breathing person of equal skill, and a board held up at the proper angle for you to hit it.
> 
> For example, I have no issue with this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saying that those people in the pervious videos are equivalent to the people in the video above is pretty silly (and fairly insulting).


Wait. Your comparing them not me. 

I am just trying to establish an understanding the comparison you use.


----------



## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> Wait. Your comparing them not me.
> 
> I am just trying to establish an understanding the comparison you use.



Well no. Using *your* argument, those people in the Sabaki challenge are doing the same thing as those poorly skilled martial artists in the videos I posted, because their techniques are "failing".

See how silly that is? Like I said, you were using a very poor comparison.

The only way you're going to be able to make a good comparison, is to find a Bjj blackbelt who can't perform basic techniques at a competent level in a demonstration format.

Good luck with that.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> The girl in the OP successfully defended herself by screaming loud enough for a third party to come to her rescue. Fortunately for her, someone was nearby that heard her cries for help. Perhaps if she knew a choke she wouldn't have had to depend on the assistance of someone else? Maybe a triangle choke?
> 
> Something to think about......


If we look at the following clip, just screaming won't help in this situation. "Environment awareness" won't help either.

Since she has to deal with 2 opponents, one has a knife, the ground game skill may not help either. So what kind of MA skill should this girl have?

IMO, she will need "quick finish move" that can "knock out" or "take down" one person ASAP. so she can concentrate on dealing with the other and use "triangle choke" as you have suggested. In order to do so,

- a fast powerful knock out punch or kick,
- a powerful throw that can make her opponent to hurt badly during falling,
- has weapon knowledge and be able to use whatever that she can find around her,
- ...

will be nice to have.


----------



## jezr74

I'm not actually arguing, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I want to understand the basis of your view on these things. So you must have an idea on what you class a success and a failure in a grappling art and a striking art. I'm trying to understand what it is you see when your watching these clips you search for.

What is the equivalent of a strike in grappling? Is the goal of a strike to connect or something else (Knock out?)? Whats the standard goal of a grapple technique (to submit?) or to hold the position or something else? 

Or are they non comparable? I personally think comparing apples to oranges is whats actually silly.

Lets leave ranking system out of it, since no one place is the same and doesn't mean anything outside of a club.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> But no less unfortunate.
> 
> 
> 
> There are martial arts out there that lull people into a false sense of security.
> 
> The girl in the OP successfully defended herself by screaming loud enough for a third party to come to her rescue. Fortunately for her, someone was nearby that heard her cries for help. Perhaps if she knew a choke she wouldn't have had to depend on the assistance of someone else? Maybe a triangle choke?
> 
> Something to think about......



I see you continue with your creative interpretation of what happened.  Not surprising, it is your way.

So let me get this straight:  you believe that if she had trained bjj then she would have stuck around to "win" the match by choking him out.  And if some third party came by and offered to help, she would have declined the offer, 'cause, ya know, she was happy choking him out...

Do you really believe this fantasy?

And, those clips you posted, do you believe the young woman trained at one of those schools?  'Cause I really don't see the relevance.


----------



## Flying Crane

I knew a guy who ran a judo school.  He told me about someone from a different school who visited his school.  The visitor was a judo brown belt.  My friend allowed him to take part in his class. My friend threw him to the mat.  The guy was injured, completely surprised.  Told my friend, his instructors never had them practice falling, never had them actually practice throws on each other.  And he was a brown belt.

So yeah, it happens.

Anyway, Hanzou, what are you trying to accomplish?  Convince us all to quit what we do and go do bjj instead?  Just because you say we should?  Seriously, what is it you are trying to accomplish?


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we look at the following clip, just screaming won't help in this situation. "Environment awareness" won't help either.
> 
> Since she has to deal with 2 opponents, one has a knife, the ground game skill may not help either. So what kind of MA skill should this girl have?
> 
> IMO, she will need "quick finish move" that can "knock out" or "take down" one person ASAP. so she can concentrate on dealing with the other and use "triangle choke" as you have suggested. In order to do so,
> 
> - a fast powerful knock out punch or kick,
> - a powerful throw that can make her opponent to hurt badly during falling,
> - has weapon knowledge and be able to use whatever that she can find around her,
> - ...
> 
> will be nice to have.


You post a clip from an actual movie, a fantasy story, and you want us to take you seriously?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> You post a clip from an actual movie, a fantasy story, and you want us to take you seriously?


It was a true story and did happened.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> You post a clip from an actual movie, a fantasy story, and you want us to take you seriously?



They are called combat scenarios.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It was a true story and did happened.


Even if that is true, a movie depiction is never exactly true.  So you want us to watch a movie depiction and then discuss as if it was accurate?


----------



## Flying Crane

drop bear said:


> They are called combat scenarios.


Um...yeah, that a screenwriter came up with and actors acted with choreography.  Sorry if I can't give that any credibility for discussion.


----------



## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> I'm not actually arguing, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I want to understand the basis of your view on these things. So you must have an idea on what you class a success and a failure in a grappling art and a striking art. I'm trying to understand what it is you see when your watching these clips you search for.
> 
> What is the equivalent of a strike in grappling? Is the goal of a strike to connect or something else (Knock out?)? Whats the standard goal of a grapple technique (to submit?) or to hold the position or something else?
> 
> Or are they non comparable? I personally think comparing apples to oranges is whats actually silly.
> 
> Lets leave ranking system out of it, since no one place is the same and doesn't mean anything outside of a club.



Well, here's an example of grappling fails;











We can compare technique to technique here. These techniques fail because they contain fundamental flaws which make them unworkable. There are sound ways to pass the guard, or counter the guard with a leglock, and neither of those examples above accomplish that goal.

Usually, you encounter grappling fails in arts attempting to counter wrestling or Bjj. The standard of Grappling arts tend to have a higher standard than your typical Kung fu, karate, or TKD school. 

This is why discussing rank is important. A practitioner on the skill level of that woman in the first vid MA fails vid would be allowed to teach in a karate or TKD school. A person of that skill level would never make it out of white belt range in a Bjj school.

It's also important because there are millions of practitioners such as those shown in those vids who have a false level of security because they received a fraudulent black belt.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I see you continue with your creative interpretation of what happened.  Not surprising, it is your way.
> 
> So let me get this straight:  you believe that if she had trained bjj then she would have stuck around to "win" the match by choking him out.  And if some third party came by and offered to help, she would have declined the offer, 'cause, ya know, she was happy choking him out...
> 
> Do you really believe this fantasy?



I believe that if this girl had spent 15 years training in Bjj instead of karate, she would have dispatched with her assailant long before any assistance would have been necessary.

There's also nothing "creative" about my statements in regards to the incident. The article in the OP backs up everything I'm saying here.



> And, those clips you posted, do you believe the young woman trained at one of those schools?  'Cause I really don't see the relevance.



You should pay attention to the flow of the discussion. That clip was mainly directed at Drose, since he told me to stick with grappling instead of striking. However, it does apply to the thread, since there are several women with black belts in certain styles who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> I believe that if this girl had spent 15 years training in Bjj instead of karate, she would have dispatched with her assailant long before any assistance would have been necessary.
> 
> There's also nothing "creative" about my statements in regards to the incident. The article in the OP backs up everything I'm saying here.
> 
> 
> 
> You should pay attention to the flow of the discussion. That clip was mainly directed at Drose, since he told me to stick with grappling instead of striking. However, it does apply to the thread, since there are several women with black belts in certain styles who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.


And yet none of this has anything to do with your thread because these statements have nothing to do with the young woman in question.  She successfully defended herself.  That is the end of the story.

Whether or not there are other black belts who cannot, is immaterial to this young woman.  You keep hoisting her up as an example of failure.  But she is not.  She is an example of success, regardless of what method she trains.

If you cannot see that, then you are blind.  That you continually define her as a failure tells me you are ignorant, or a liar.  My judgement tells me you are both.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I would agree with Flying Crane that this lady is a success story.  She fought, she survived and now she gets to go on and live here life.  What more could we want?  That is success in this personal protection confrontation.


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> And yet none of this has anything to do with your thread because these statements have nothing to do with the young woman in question.  She successfully defended herself.  That is the end of the story.



She successfully fended off an attack until help arrived.



> Whether or not there are other black belts who cannot, is immaterial to this young woman.  You keep hoisting her up as an example of failure.  But she is not.  She is an example of success, regardless of what method she trains.



I hoist her up as someone who was lucky that someone came to her aid. In that sense, she is a success. If your trotting her out as a martial arts expert who successfully stopped an attack with her training, I don't agree.



> If you cannot see that, then you are blind.  That you continually define her as a failure tells me you are ignorant, or a liar.  My judgement tells me you are both.



Well that must speak quite a bit towards your judgement and eyesight, since I never defined her as a failure.


----------



## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> Well, here's an example of grappling fails;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can compare technique to technique here. These techniques fail because they contain fundamental flaws which make them unworkable. There are sound ways to pass the guard, or counter the guard with a leglock, and neither of those examples above accomplish that goal.
> 
> Usually, you encounter grappling fails in arts attempting to counter wrestling or Bjj. The standard of Grappling arts tend to have a higher standard than your typical Kung fu, karate, or TKD school.
> 
> This is why discussing rank is important. A practitioner on the skill level of that woman in the first vid MA fails vid would be allowed to teach in a karate or TKD school. A person of that skill level would never make it out of white belt range in a Bjj school.
> 
> It's also important because there are millions of practitioners such as those shown in those vids who have a false level of security because they received a fraudulent black belt.



Your comparing skills of a practitioner of a grappling art to a grappling add-on to a striking style style?

I'm lost, I thought you were comparing a strike effectiveness to a grapple technique effectiveness. So I wanted to know what you consider a shortcoming within your own art, vs. something effective so I can keep it in perspective within the same style. I can then get an idea of what your comparing.

I just can't see the point of looking at failures in non related arts for the purpose of what we are talking about. (But it's also gone off topic, so can drop it for a rainy day)


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> She successfully fended off an attack until help arrived.
> 
> 
> 
> I hoist her up as someone who was lucky that someone came to her aid. In that sense, she is a success. If your trotting her out as a martial arts expert who successfully stopped an attack with her training, I don't agree.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that must speak quite a bit towards your judgement and eyesight, since I never defined her as a failure.


More spin.  But hey, it's you.


----------



## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> Your comparing skills of a practitioner of a grappling art to a grappling add-on to a striking style style?
> 
> I'm lost, I thought you were comparing a strike effectiveness to a grapple technique effectiveness. So I wanted to know what you consider a shortcoming within your own art, vs. something effective so I can keep it in perspective within the same style. I can then get an idea of what your comparing.
> 
> I just can't see the point of looking at failures in non related arts for the purpose of what we are talking about. (But it's also gone off topic, so can drop it for a rainy day)



Well frankly you're not going to find a clip like that Bjj. The training style of that art simply won't allow it. You can pretend in striking arts like Karate or TKD. You can't pretend like that in Bjj. It simply isn't possible. Especially with the sheer level of sparring that is inherent in the art.

Which brings us back to the OP; The woman couldn't generate enough power in her strikes to incapacitate her attacker, and it was a bystander that ended up making the attacker flee. Just like that woman in the clip couldn't generate enough power to break a board. Has she ever knocked someone out with a reverse punch? Doubtful. Has she ever smashed ribs with a side kick? Nope. It's all theory, and very little application.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, a 150 lb person trading blows with a 250 lb person seems like suicide. They're are football players who are 250lb, and they're not slow people by any stretch of the imagination.



Fighting someone who outweighs you by 100 pounds is rough whether you're striking or grappling. Here's a nice example of someone doing it successfully in a striking context:







Drose427 said:


> I've trained at 5 different BJJ schools in my time studying grappling.
> 
> Including Matt Bryers video on his post here, I've seen 2 schools or gyms that have their BJJ guys do any kind of drill prepping them for someone physically striking them.
> 
> This is everything from Gracie schools to MMA gyms.
> 
> Unless theyre BJJ guys are competing in MMA or taking the MMA class, it isnt something I've ever regularly seen outside of a Relson Gracie school where the head instructor is an ex cop.
> 
> While I've done more Newaza at open mats, grappling schools/classes, etc. I've done more drills of getting up from someone wailing on me at SD seminars and my TSD class.





Drose427 said:


> You keep saying that, but again, I've been to quite a few schools and met many many grapplers, 2 of which have strong ties to gracies (ones a relson academy) and very, very few never did it. The only ones who had any kind of grappling training against a ground and pound where the guys who competed in MMA.



Yeah, BJJ is evolving in some divergent directions at the moment. Sport schools that just focus on pure competitive grappling at the expense of training against strikes are more common than not. Of those schools that do cover working against strikes, many relegate it to the MMA classes. At my gym, I'm the only instructor who regularly covers the topic in pure BJJ classes.

From my standpoint, this is not a great development, but everybody trains for their own reasons. The art will move in whatever direction(s) it does based on the collective decisions of many different people seeking their own goals.




Hanzou said:


> Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it.





Hanzou said:


> I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style.



Speaking as a BJJ practitioner ... it does seem to me that you spend rather a lot of your time attacking any style that isn't BJJ, Judo, Sombo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai. I don't think the "traditional" stylists here are imagining these attacks out of some sort of inferiority complex.

I also have opinions about what training methods work well and which ones don't. Many of those opinions probably overlap with yours. That doesn't mean I need to constantly barge into threads about other arts and tell practitioners of those arts how much their arts suck. (Or start threads about how much their arts suck.)



Hanzou said:


> Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....



Well ... it's not as if there is any sort of universal official rule about what belt qualifies as instructor level in BJJ. If there is a demand for your instruction, then you can teach.

My first  regular (non-seminar) classes in BJJ were with Jorge Gurgel back when he was a blue belt - and the highest ranking BJJ practitioner in the area. These days there are a lot more higher-level practitioners around, so you won't find as many blue belts teaching. In another ten years, you probably won't see as many purple belts teaching, because there will be more black belts available.



Hanzou said:


> I find it interesting that this young lady's story keeps changing, and keeps making her look more and more in control of the situation. I suppose the first iteration didn't shine a very favorable light on her 15 years of martial arts training.
> 
> That said, I'm sticking to the version of events presented in the article posted in the OP. Not the latter articles which seems to point to her trying to save face.



Maybe the young lady was barely surviving and was about to get beaten down when help arrived.
Maybe the young lady was winning and was about to finish off her attacker when help arrived.
Maybe it was an even fight and the outcome was uncertain when help arrived.

None of us was there, so none of us knows. I would strongly caution against any of us choosing which details of which account we are willing to believe, just because they support a narrative in line with our personal prejudices.


----------



## Buka

I first trained in BJJ in the early 90s. From day one it included strikes we did in stand-up, altered/tweaked to work on the ground with our developing grappling skills. It might not have been pure BJJ as some know it, but it was darn good BJJ as we got to know it.

Still is, too.


----------



## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe the young lady was barely surviving and was about to get beaten down when help arrived.
> Maybe the young lady was winning and was about to finish off her attacker when help arrived.
> Maybe it was an even fight and the outcome was uncertain when help arrived.
> 
> None of us was there, so none of us knows. I would strongly caution against any of us choosing which details of which account we are willing to believe, just because they support a narrative in line with our personal prejudices.



Again, I'm basing everything I've stated in this thread on the article in the OP. I find it bizarre that someone would be screaming for help, and the attacker would only flee when he saw a third party come onto the scene if she "had him on the ropes", or was about to "finish him off". The latter accounts seem more like face-saving than anything else, because the original article didn't paint a good picture of her MA training.


----------



## Flying Crane

Flying Crane said:


> Anyway, Hanzou, what are you trying to accomplish?  Convince us all to quit what we do and go do bjj instead?  Just because you say we should?  Seriously, what is it you are trying to accomplish?


I'm still waiting for an answer on this.  Hanzou, what is it?  Do you have an answer or are you just a troll?


----------



## Jenna

Hanzou said:


> ..since there are several women with black belts in certain styles who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.


I am reasonably confident I could fight my way out of a paper bag.  Then again *plastic* bags are different.. everyone knows they are a choke hazard.. Mind you.. if I were BJJ trained would I be able to deal with the choke from a *plastic* bag?  All is becoming clearer.. it is an epiphany for me!  Jx


----------



## Hanzou

Flying Crane said:


> I'm still waiting for an answer on this.  Hanzou, what is it?  Do you have an answer or are you just a troll?



Simply discussing the positives and negatives of a female practitioner utilizing a striking style or a grappling style in a SD situation.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> Simply discussing the positives and negatives of a female practitioner utilizing a striking style or a grappling style in a SD situation.


Troll


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> Fighting someone who outweighs you by 100 pounds is rough whether you're striking or grappling.


In the grappling art, you just don't see small Sumo guy can have any chance to win. Can a small light weight girl be able to win against a big heavy Sumo guy? I don't think so.

On the other hand, a proper groin kick may end a fight quickly which may not have anything to do with "size".


----------



## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> Well frankly you're not going to find a clip like that Bjj. The training style of that art simply won't allow it. You can pretend in striking arts like Karate or TKD. You can't pretend like that in Bjj. It simply isn't possible. Especially with the sheer level of sparring that is inherent in the art.



I'll leave this alone. Just reminds me of the old saying "To a hammer, everything is a nail"




Hanzou said:


> Which brings us back to the OP; The woman couldn't generate enough power in her strikes to incapacitate her attacker, and it was a bystander that ended up making the attacker flee. Just like that woman in the clip couldn't generate enough power to break a board. Has she ever knocked someone out with a reverse punch? Doubtful. Has she ever smashed ribs with a side kick? Nope. It's all theory, and very little application.



I re-read the article, she was attacked getting her injuries, then she used her skills and caused bleeding to the attacker, she then went on (rather than disengage) attacking him. I would read this as clear successful self defense. When the second person arrived, he was "scared" off. 

Speculatively, It's almost like she was trying to keep him there until people arrived that might be able to apprehend him, hard to say. But in her case, having her skill set worked, grappling may have been detrimental to the outcome if she had tried it.

As for your original question for striking vs. grappling. I think personally you should have both equally. I can see having grappling skills would be incredibly beneficial along with striking skills. Where you have commented on striking power, it could have equally be a body slam from close quarters I guess.

But I think just the nature of predatory attacks that can occur, grappling ability is a must if you want to cover all your bases.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Again, I'm basing everything I've stated in this thread on the article in the OP. I find it bizarre that someone would be screaming for help.



"Screaming for help," is part of self-defense, when it's taught properly-under the best of circumstances, a person defending themselves might be screaming for help the entire time, even until they disabled their attacker.....not really addressing the rest of your line of thinking, but I had to point this out-and, point out as well that there are quite a few grapplers on this thread who don't agree with your premise, and that you might do better considering what we've said than posting the equivalent of _La, lal, la, I'm not listening to you, grappling is the best thing for the str33tz!_ with your "fingers jammed into your ears"

As for the story in the OP, we'll never really know the exact circumstances, but they boil down to her being successful-she didn't get raped, she didn't die-_she screamed for help, *and help came*_ she fended off her attacker, even if she didn't put him to sleep, snap his arm, or simply hold him (submit) until help arrived.....don't see how there could have been a better outcome? Seriously-what is it that you're trying to say would have been a better outcome if she'd had grappling skills and used them exclusively?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the grappling art, you just don't see small Sumo guy can have any chance to win. Can a small light weight girl be able to win against a big heavy Sumo guy? I don't think so.
> 
> On the other hand, a proper groin kick may end a fight quickly which may not have anything to do with "size".



Allow me to introduce to you Takanoyama Shuntaro :


----------



## elder999

Tony Dismukes said:


> Allow me to introduce to you Takanoyama Shuntaro :


Beat me to it!


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> "Screaming for help," is part of self-defense, when it's taught properly-under the best of circumstances, a person defending themselves might be screaming for help the entire time, even until they disabled their attacker.....not really addressing the rest of your line of thinking, but I had to point this out-and, point out as well that there are quite a few grapplers on this thread who don't agree with your premise, and that you might do better considering what we've said than posting the equivalent of _La, lal, la, I'm not listening to you, grappling is the best thing for the str33tz!_ with your "fingers jammed into your ears"
> 
> As for the story in the OP, we'll never really know the exact circumstances, but they boil down to her being successful-she didn't get raped, she didn't die-_she screamed for help, *and help came*_ she fended off her attacker, even if she didn't put him to sleep, snap his arm, or simply hold him (submit) until help arrived.....don't see how there could have been a better outcome? Seriously-what is it that you're trying to say would have been a better outcome if she'd had grappling skills and used them exclusively?



Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious judge awards her 500 - Bloody Elbow

Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai Bjj Eastern Europe

Better outcomes.

Also I should note that I'm not saying that what she did wasn't successful, just that it was successful because of third party intervention. I shudder to think what would have happened if that third party didn't come to her aid.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious judge awards her 500 - Bloody Elbow



From the article: " 39-year-old Mark Willis g*rabbed and punched her several times before forcing her to the ground and mounting her.*"

You mean her mad BJJ skillz didn't prevent him from grabbing and punching her several times and forcing her to the ground?

You mean being grabbed, punched and mounted is a "better outcome" than in the story in the OP? 

'Cause, it sounds suspiciously similar to me.......





Hanzou said:


> Also I should note that I'm not saying that what she did wasn't successful, just that it was successful because of third party intervention. I shudder to think what would have happened if that third party didn't come to her aid.



I shudder to think what would have happened in the first story if she'd been Tased, or simply cracked on the back of the head-or in the second case if the bus driver had done the same, or worse.....honestly, still don't get what you're trying to say-and, maybe, next time, you should just* say it*, instead of asking a question and not liking the answers you get...


----------



## Hanzou

elder999 said:


> From the article: " 39-year-old Mark Willis g*rabbed and punched her several times before forcing her to the ground and mounting her.*"
> 
> You mean her mad BJJ skillz didn't prevent him from grabbing and punching her several times and forcing her to the ground?
> 
> You mean being grabbed, punched and mounted is a "better outcome" than in the story in the OP?
> 
> 'Cause, it sounds suspiciously similar to me.......



The better outcome is not relying on a third party to save the day (and getting a cash reward for choking out a rapist).


----------



## Flying Crane

Hanzou said:


> The better outcome is not relying on a third party to save the day (and getting a cash reward for choking out a rapist).


Troll.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> Allow me to introduce to you Takanoyama Shuntaro :


A light weight person may defeat a heavy weight person, but that's exception case and not normal case. This is why the weight division is used in wrestling. In the grappling art, the weight will play more important rule than in the striking art. Again, a proper groin kick may end the fight which may have noting to do with the body weight.


----------



## jezr74

What level of proficiency is required (speculatively) to be considered able to effectively position and complete triangle chokes?

If an art was to introduce this as a part of their syllabus, at what point do you introduce it, is there an age or maturity that's needed?


----------



## Steve

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A light weight person may defeat a heavy weight person, but that's exception case and not normal case. *This is why the weight division is used in wrestling*. In the grappling art, the weight will play more important rule than in the striking art. Again, a proper groin kick may end the fight which may have noting to do with the body weight.


Well... this isn't exactly true.  Wrestling and other competitions have weight classes because the goal of competition is to level the playing field in the spirit of equity and fairness.  It's not because little guys can't beat big guys, although size and strength can certainly be an advantage.


----------



## Steve

jezr74 said:


> What level of proficiency is required (speculatively) to be considered able to effectively position and complete triangle chokes?
> 
> If an art was to introduce this as a part of their syllabus, at what point do you introduce it, is there an age or maturity that's needed?


It's introduced typically at the white belt level.  Very basic submission.

Really, the only things that are treated with particular care in BJJ are often the leg locks and the neck cranks.  The former, because damage to the joint can occur before pain encourages a tap.  In other words, if you don't know the danger you're in, you may not tap until lasting damage has occurred.  In contract, your elbow hurts a lot BEFORE ligaments are torn or the joint is dislocated.  The knee or ankle could pop in a very bad way before you really feel pain.  Neck cranks are just dangerous.  I know a black belt whose neck was broken by a student because he was being stubborn and didn't open his guard to a can opener.  He is okay, thank goodness, but he's a lot more careful now.

Kids are allowed to perform triangle chokes, but are not allowed to pull down on the head, as it puts pressure on the neck/spine.  Children are typically prohibited from using any technique that does this, including the guillotine choke, ezekiels, using a can opener to open guard, pulling on the head for a triangle choke, etc are off limits.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> She successfully fended off an attack until help arrived.
> 
> 
> 
> I hoist her up as someone who was lucky that someone came to her aid. In that sense, she is a success. If your trotting her out as a martial arts expert who successfully stopped an attack with her training, I don't agree.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that must speak quite a bit towards your judgement and eyesight, since I never defined her as a failure.



That is how real fights work. If a third party comes in all the better. That is still a win.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> That is how real fights work. If a third party comes in all the better. That is still a win.



With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.

But then again, she probably didn't know any chokes or joint locks. Would have made a strong compliment to her striking.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.
> 
> But then again, she probably didn't know any chokes or joint locks. Would have made a strong compliment to her striking.



Why? I could possibly towel up a 15 year bjjer half my size from ambush. 

I know guys who have done it in the ring.

I don't agree with this should business. It is silly talk.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Why? I could possibly towel up a 15 year bjjer half my size from ambush.
> 
> I know guys who have done it in the ring.
> 
> I don't agree with this should business. It is silly talk.



Well yes, because you have years of grappling experience. The average predator does not. Furthermore, a woman with Bjj or some other form of grappling experience would be use to grappling individuals much larger than herself who also happen to be excellent grapplers.

Why do you think we have examples of women choking out men with triangle chokes with no outside assistance? Meanwhile this girl was hitting this guy with everything she had, and it didn't cease the attack.

Why? Frankly she couldn't generate the necessary force to incapacitate him because of her weaker physiology. After all that pummeling, he was still able to get away. A choke simply doesn't require that level of power.

I'm quite happy that the young woman is okay, but if she were my daughter, she'd be signing up for MMA or Bjj immediately. I wouldn't want her life to depend on the kindness of strangers.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Well yes, because you have years of grappling experience. The average predator does not. Furthermore, a woman with Bjj or some other form of grappling experience would be use to grappling individuals much larger than herself who also happen to be excellent grapplers.
> 
> Why do you think we have examples of women choking out men with triangle chokes with no outside assistance? Meanwhile this girl was hitting this guy with everything she had, and it didn't cease the attack.
> 
> Why? Frankly she couldn't generate the necessary force to incapacitate him because of her weaker physiology. After all that pummeling, he was still able to get away. A choke simply doesn't require that level of power.
> 
> I'm quite happy that the young woman is okay, but if she were my daughter, she'd be signing up for MMA or Bjj immediately. I wouldn't want her life to depend on the kindness of strangers.



An attacker with its completely vague description may have advantages that can overcome a 15 year bjj black belt. So when we are comparing three different attackers in three different situations it becomes hard to get such a conclusive argument.

Otherwise knowing quality striking and grappling can be endorsed just on the reasoning that you can employ a greater range of defence. And we don't have to play the what if game so much.


----------



## drop bear

And it is not hard to find a decisive use of striking ing self defence.

Female karate champion defeats mugger - Telegraph


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> An attacker with its completely vague description may have advantages that can overcome a 15 year bjj black belt.



Well sure, but who's better off? The woman who spent 15 years grappling and ground and pounding men larger than herself, or the woman who spent 15 years breaking boards and winning kata competitions?



drop bear said:


> And it is not hard to find a decisive use of striking ing self defence.
> 
> Female karate champion defeats mugger - Telegraph



So she knocks the mugger down and runs to a police station.

Impressive.....


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Well sure, but who's better off? The woman who spent 15 years grappling and ground and pounding men larger than herself, or the woman who spent 15 years breaking boards and winning kata competitions?
> 
> 
> 
> So she knocks the mugger down and runs to a police station.
> 
> Impressive.....



We are moving from grappling vs striking. Which I think is a silly distinction because you can do both. To alive training vs dead drilling. Which again you should do both.

And the police return to find the mugger still there. All beat up. Which is impressive.


----------



## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.
> But then again, she probably didn't know any chokes or joint locks. Would have made a strong compliment to her striking.



They attacker may have been a grappling grand master for all we know. Sounds like it since he kept trying to take her to the ground.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> We are moving from grappling vs striking. Which I think is a silly distinction because you can do both. To alive training vs dead drilling. . Which again you should do both.



Really? We don't break boards or do Katas and we get along just fine. 



> And the police return to find the mugger still there. All beat up. Which is impressive.



Your embellishing. She hit him, knocked him down and ran for the nearest police station. It's simply not the same as a woman who choked someone unconscious, fully capable of ending his life if she chooses to do so.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Really? We don't break boards or do Katas and we get along just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Your embellishing. She hit him, knocked him down and ran for the nearest police station. It's simply not the same as a woman who choked someone unconscious, fully capable of ending his life if she chooses to do so.



Getting along just fine doesn't count unless you are aiming for mediocrity. Everybody does dead drills. Some specific to the environment. As soon as you think you have the best method. That is when you become the tma that does not reach its full potential.

We are both embellishing. There is what happened and then there is what might have happened.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Getting along just fine doesn't count unless you are aiming for mediocrity. Everybody does dead drills. Some specific to the environment. As soon as you think you have the best method. That is when you become the tma that does not reach its full potential.



Who said we didn't do dead drills? I said we don't break boards or do kata. Not all dead drills are created equal.



> We are both embellishing. There is what happened and then there is what might have happened.



That's not embellishing. Embellishing is when you trump up what actually occurred to make someone look better. For example, saying the girl in the OP had the upper hand when all the evidence says otherwise. Or saying the woman in your article "beat the guy up" when it just says she socked him and grabbed a cop.

I suppose I simply hold martial artists to a higher standard. ::shrug::


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Meanwhile this girl was hitting this guy with everything she had, and it didn't cease the attack.
> 
> Why? Frankly she couldn't generate the necessary force to incapacitate him because of her weaker physiology. After all that pummeling, he was still able to get away. A choke simply doesn't require that level of power.


As has been pointed out many times, that is simply not true. You can refer back to the OP but you cannot ignore the other reports. I would suggest that she did just fine with the tools she used and you have no idea what grappling skills she has.



Hanzou said:


> I'm quite happy that the young woman is okay, but if she were my daughter, she'd be signing up for MMA or Bjj immediately. I wouldn't want her life to depend on the kindness of strangers.


Kindness of strangers? BS! You know that wasn't the case here, so stop trying to twist the truth.

If she was my daughter, and I was concerned only about her ability to defend herself, I most certainly would *not* be signing her up for BJJ or MMA. There are better options available and none of them, that is zero, would advocate intentionally going to the ground.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Who said we didn't do dead drills? I said we don't break boards or do kata. Not all dead drills are created equal.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not embellishing. Embellishing is when you trump up what actually occurred to make someone look better. For example, saying the girl in the OP had the upper hand when all the evidence says otherwise. Or saying the woman in your article "beat the guy up" when it just says she socked him and grabbed a cop.
> 
> I suppose I simply hold martial artists to a higher standard. ::shrug::



Breaking boards and doing kata is part of some quality fighters training regime. I don't skip. I do fine without it. Others do skip and do fine with it. So is skipping vital or unnecessary?

And the answer depends on the person and the overall training methods. 

So for example if you wanted to train with our local karate champion. You would have to do kata as part of your training method. It is important to him and he is better at karate than you.

Simple evidence based method. 

If you don't do kata and beat him up. Then your method has merit.

Embellishing is saying that a person could have done something they did not do. Or that the outcome would have followed your prescribed scenario. 

What happened. Happened. Some people got held off. Some people got beat up and some got choked out. You cant keep mixing and matching trying to make some sort of point from these events unless you are embellishing.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> As has been pointed out many times, that is simply not true. You can refer back to the OP but you cannot ignore the other reports. I would suggest that she did just fine with the tools she used and you have no idea what grappling skills she has.



Who said she didn't do "fine"? I think she followed standard self defense procedure very well when you're in a situation out of your control.



> Kindness of strangers? BS! You know that wasn't the case here, so stop trying to twist the truth.



The third party scared the attacker off. The situation could have been much different if the passerby completely ignored her screams for help.



> If she was my daughter, and I was concerned only about her ability to defend herself, I most certainly would *not* be signing her up for BJJ or MMA. There are better options available and none of them, that is zero, would advocate intentionally going to the ground.



And you'd be setting her up for a situation just like the girl in the OP. Unfortunately, you can't depend on a passerby' coming to your aid all the time. There's plenty of women who screamed for help, and no one came to their rescue.


----------



## Zero

Hanzou said:


> You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles? I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.


Hmm, just as an example, do you include Wing Chun as a traditional art? While the offense is all about working the opponent's centre line, just as fundamental is the offline deflection and movement.  It's all about moving your opponent's attacks offline.


----------



## Hanzou

Zero said:


> Hmm, just as an example, do you include Wing Chun as a traditional art? While the offense is all about working the opponent's centre line, just as fundamental is the offline deflection and movement.  It's all about moving your opponent's attacks offline.



When I see a WC fighter actually using that principle in a fight, I'll believe it. Having a fighting theory is great. Seeing that theory applied on a consistent basis is even better.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Who said she didn't do "fine"? I think she followed standard self defense procedure very well when you're in a situation out of your control.


Um. I could be mistaken but I thought it was you on multiple occasions. Of course, against all the reports, you know that she wasn't in control. Certainly, she was jumped, and dumped. She recovered and according to all the reports was in control when the third party arrived.




Hanzou said:


> The third party scared the attacker off. The situation could have been much different if the passerby completely ignored her screams for help.


That is a blatant lie. You made it up to suit your story. 



Hanzou said:


> And you'd be setting her up for a situation just like the girl in the OP. Unfortunately, you can't depend on a passerby' coming to your aid all the time. There's plenty of women who screamed for help, and no one came to their rescue.


No! You have no idea of the training I provide. It is nothing like your description of your Shotokan training. Keep your thoughts to yourself unless you know what training I provide.


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Um. I could be mistaken but I thought it was you on multiple occasions. Of course, against all the reports, you know that she wasn't in control. Certainly, she was jumped, and dumped. She recovered and according to all the reports was in control when the third party arrived.
> 
> That is a blatant lie. You made it up to suit your story.



A *blatant lie*?



> A stranger heard Ms Davis' screams for help and came to her aid, *scaring off the attacker*.



 I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au





> No! You have no idea of the training I provide. It is nothing like your description of your Shotokan training. Keep your thoughts to yourself unless you know what training I provide.



Oh, I wasn't aware that *you* would be the one doing the training. Well considering that you combine multiple arts and grappling, she would be quite a bit better off than the woman in the article. I find it quite interesting that you're against MMA training, when you offer MMA training yourself.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*The one in Italy certainly didn't count on anyone coming to help her Hanzou.*  She knocked him down and he was unable to get up in time to get away from the police.  Another success story just like the first one because what is important in the end is that they were able to survive the incident with no long lasting damage/effects and move on with their lives.  That is what personal protection is all about!


----------



## RTKDCMB

Hanzou said:


> With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.


From the story it is not clear that it was necessary.


----------



## Hanzou

RTKDCMB said:


> From the story it is not clear that it was necessary.



Considering that she was screaming for help, I would think that assistance was quite necessary.


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The one in Italy certainly didn't count on anyone coming to help her Hanzou.*  She knocked him down and he was unable to get up in time to get away from the police.  Another success story just like the first one because what is important in the end is that they were able to survive the incident with no long lasting damage/effects and move on with their lives.  That is what personal protection is all about!



I never said that either article wasn't a success story. I simply find it interesting that one group depended on outside assistance, and the other group didn't. And yes, running into the police station and getting a cop to arrest the perp is depending on a third party to end the situation.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Hanzou, your the only person here who feels that way*.  Everyone, throughout this thread believes she did really well and her screaming for help is part of efficient self-defense/personal protection strategy.  I would do it and teach it.  Heck, the people on the ground in Melbourne who are closer to this incident feel she did really well based on the TV and news article.  I know it does not fit your "narrative" that grappling is better so I would move on and move forward.  Your really losing this argument badly by utilizing this incident as your base for your agenda!


----------



## Hanzou

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Hanzou, your the only person here who feels that way*.  Everyone, throughout this thread believes she did really well and her screaming for help is part of efficient self-defense/personal protection strategy.  I would do it and teach it.  Heck, the people on the ground in Melbourne who are closer to this incident feel she did really well based on the TV and news article.  I know it does not fit your "narrative" that grappling is better so I would move on and move forward.  Your really losing this argument badly by utilizing this incident as your base for your agenda!



Actually it fits the narrative perfectly. People are free to disagree of course, but I think its quite telling that you have a woman with 15 years of martial arts experience needing help from a passerby. On the other hand, you have women who choked out violent offenders without help from anyone.

What was the difference maker? Well you have women on one side depending on brute force, and you have women on the other side relying on various other factors.

Remember this vid?






Two supposedly equal martial artists sparring for a black belt test. The woman couldn't compete because she couldn't match the sheer power of her male opponent, and it got to the point where the guy just fought her with his hands down. And this is what happened to that girl in Australia. Despite her karate training, her blows simply weren't getting the job done. We should recognize that, and accept that, and teach women accordingly, instead of giving them some sort of fantasy that they're going to be able to stop that big burly killer with spinning kicks or knife-hand attacks.

Political correctness can be a killer.


----------



## Xue Sheng

And there was a woman, in NYC, that punched out a male attacker without help too , hit him twice, with her right, he fell down both times and after the second fall ran away....also did not drop her bag of groceries in her left .....


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Actually it fits the narrative perfectly. People are free to disagree of course, but I think its quite telling that you have a woman with 15 years of martial arts experience needing help from a passerby. On the other hand, you have women who choked out violent offenders without help from anyone.
> Political correctness can be a killer.



And this is just insulting, in the end.

Bad Idea Trying To Abduct 14-Year-Old Karate Student - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com

71-year-old woman kicks clubs maces her attacker - KSHB.com

Tilgate Park Crawley attacker beaten up by schoolgirl martial artist Metro News

Woman beats attacker with chicken Stranger attempted to strangle with bra

A Woman Says She Beat the Hell Out of Knife-Wielding Attacker at White Rock Last Night Dallas Observer

Oregon woman kills hitman hired by her husband - wave3.com-Louisville News Weather Sports
(Love this one!)

Woman With Baby In Stroller Beats Attacker In Fort Tryon Park Gothamist

Women have been defending themselves against men for a long time....like, I dunno, _forever_.


----------



## Zero

Hanzou said:


> When I see a WC fighter actually using that principle in a fight, I'll believe it. Having a fighting theory is great. Seeing that theory applied on a consistent basis is even better.


I might actually get a bashing from WC guys here but Hanzou, I must say I acknowledge your point.  I only did WC for 2 years alongside when I was doing goju to add to my game.  From my short time I would say that  WC is an awesome and very "scientific", no-nonsense style, if you get my meaning....

...That said from watching junior through to senior/black shirt WC guys entering into freestyle and wushu tournaments, I have to say that without exception they either from the start or very quickly when faced with an opponent (and the guys they were fighting were decent enough kick boxers in general) adopted a fighting style that had no resemblance to WC or WC moves or stances that I was familiar with, it very much became a form of boxing approach.  Now, you could say that because they were wearing gloves certain WC moves are rendered problematic at best or ineffective at worst and that given they were constrained by the rules of the tournament they were at a disadvantage but I am always highly suspicious of those kind of arguments (although that may be a valid observation).  But that said, WC is a style developed to deal with other striking styles (and it should not be just to deal with other WC proponents) so it is interesting.


----------



## Zero

Hanzou said:


> Actually it fits the narrative perfectly. People are free to disagree of course, but I think its quite telling that you have a woman with 15 years of martial arts experience needing help from a passerby. On the other hand, you have women who choked out violent offenders without help from anyone.
> 
> What was the difference maker? Well you have women on one side depending on brute force, and you have women on the other side relying on various other factors.
> 
> Remember this vid?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two supposedly equal martial artists sparring for a black belt test. The woman couldn't compete because she couldn't match the sheer power of her male opponent, and it got to the point where the guy just fought her with his hands down. And this is what happened to that girl in Australia. Despite her karate training, her blows simply weren't getting the job done. We should recognize that, and accept that, and teach women accordingly, instead of giving them some sort of fantasy that they're going to be able to stop that big burly killer with spinning kicks or knife-hand attacks.
> 
> Political correctness can be a killer.



Are you saying that in striking styles sheer superior size, weight and/or power will defeat a "smaller" opponent, whereas in grappling or specifically bjj, such differences in size do not correlate to the same kind of disadvantage?


----------



## elder999

Zero said:


> I  adopted a fighting style that had no resemblance to WC or WC moves or stances that I was familiar with, it very much became a form of boxing approach.  .



From my experience, wing chun is very much of a boxing approach.....just sayin'......Bruce Lee won a Hong Kong amateur boxing tournament in 1958, with nothing but wing chun training......


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> So she knocks the mugger down and runs to a police station.
> 
> Impressive.....





Hanzou said:


> And yes, running into the police station and getting a cop to arrest the perp is depending on a third party to end the situation.



If you knock an attacker down and they haven't recovered enough to leave the scene before you come back with the cops to arrest them, I'd say you won the fight pretty decisively. In this case, the young lady had already successfully defended herself and brought the police in to arrest the perp, not to save her.


----------



## Hanzou

Zero said:


> Are you saying that in striking styles sheer superior size, weight and/or power will defeat a "smaller" opponent, whereas in grappling or specifically bjj, such differences in size do not correlate to the same kind of disadvantage?



I would say that in striking styles its far more likely to happen. Again, in my karate days, I could hang with female black belts with little problem, even when I first started. In Bjj female upper belts demolished me quite easily, simply because they weren't going force against force.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Zero said:


> Are you saying that in striking styles sheer superior size, weight and/or power will defeat a "smaller" opponent, whereas in grappling or specifically bjj, such differences in size do not correlate to the same kind of disadvantage?


Hanzou, who has a moderate degree of experience in both striking and grappling arts, believes that size and strength differences matter more in striking.

Kung Fu Wang, who has quite a bit of experience in both striking and grappling (although I don't know if that includes ground grappling), believes that size and strength differences matter more in grappling.

I, having a reasonable degree of experience in both, find the disadvantage of working against a bigger, stronger opponent to be about the same in both modalities. All other things being equal, the bigger person has the advantage, which is why it is important to not let all other things be equal.

One advantage you do find in grappling is that it is easier to put in the necessary long hours of sparring against larger opponents without getting hurt. I can grapple every day against a 260-pound powerhouse who is using his size and strength against me. I might get repeatedly crushed and tapped out, but I should be able to avoid injury. If I'm dong hard boxing or kickboxing sparring against the same guy every day, I may end up with a concussion. On the other hand, if we're talking about a self-defense situation, I'm going to have to deal with the big guy's strikes anyway, so I'll need to get some experience handling those in training.


----------



## Zero

elder999 said:


> From my experience, wing chun is very much of a boxing approach.....just sayin'......Bruce Lee won a Hong Kong amateur boxing tournament in 1958, with nothing but wing chun training......


Yup, a good enough observation (again, that's only with my paltry two years experience in WC and ongoing observations).


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> I, having a reasonable degree of experience in both, find the disadvantage of working against a bigger, stronger opponent to be about the same in both modalities. All other things being equal, the bigger person has the advantage, which is why it is important to not let all other things be equal.



I like to think I have a reasonable degree of experience in both, and I think you're spot on here. It's not so much if you're a grappler or a striker. It's the specific circumstances of the altercation. There is no "one size fits all" answer.
This past weekend, being a holiday weekend, we had more than the usual number of people developing what I generically refer to as "beer muscles" - people who, for whatever psychiatric and/or chemical reason, think they want to fight everybody.

Two men spring to mind. Both are taller than me. One lighter, one heavier.
One I took down with a strike, one with a grapple.
Admittedly, the environment means that I don't have to keep them down very long before others help, but the fact is that the specific circumstances of each event dictate the most effective response.


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> A *blatant lie*?


Yep, when it all boils down and you twist the truth it usually ends up that way. You twist things so much that it appears you even believe it yourself.

As to news reports. First reports rushing to break a story often miss important bits. They generally come out later as they did in this case. 



Hanzou said:


> Oh, I wasn't aware that *you* would be the one doing the training. Well considering that you combine multiple arts and grappling, she would be quite a bit better off than the woman in the article. I find it quite interesting that you're against MMA training, when you offer MMA training yourself.


 I'm not sure why you would say this. You suggested my training was setting females up for failure, now you say because I'm combining martial arts it's different. 

Why would you suggest I was against MMA training? Like most people, there are certain systems or types of training that don't appeal to me. MMA training is one of them, but that has nothing to do with MMA. The very practical reason is, although I hate to play the age card, MMA in your 60s is not the most sensible place to play. Even in my 20s or 30s I doubt it would have appealed but that is personal choice. 

So no, I am not against MMA. I think for people who wish to participate in MMA competition it is probably the best way to train. But, I am the first to admit, I don't have the right skill set to teach MMA so although you may claim I teach MMA, that is just not true, and I do *not* offer MMA training.


----------



## Xue Sheng

K-man said:


> *I'm not sure why you would say this*. You suggested my training was setting females up for failure, now you say because I'm combining martial arts it's different.
> 
> *Why would you suggest I was against MMA training?* Like most people, there are certain systems or types of training that don't appeal to me. MMA training is one of them, but that has nothing to do with MMA. The very practical reason is, although I hate to play the age card, MMA in your 60s is not the most sensible place to play. Even in my 20s or 30s I doubt it would have appealed but that is personal choice.
> .



easy answer...he is a troll


----------



## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Yep, when it all boils down and you twist the truth it usually ends up that way. You twist things so much that it appears you even believe it yourself.
> 
> As to news reports. First reports rushing to break a story often miss important bits. They generally come out later as they did in this case.



So pretty much everyone is lying unless they go with your version of events?

Nice to know.



> I'm not sure why you would say this. You suggested my training was setting females up for failure, now you say because I'm combining martial arts it's different.



Why yes. I personally don't believe that individual arts have all the answers. This is especially the case with archaic arts that don't evolve with the times, and tend to believe that they had all of the answers way back in the day. I personally wouldn't recommend either Aikido or Goju for self defense, but, I think that they're better combined than they are separated.



> Why would you suggest I was against MMA training? Like most people, there are certain systems or types of training that don't appeal to me. MMA training is one of them, but that has nothing to do with MMA. The very practical reason is, although I hate to play the age card, MMA in your 60s is not the most sensible place to play. Even in my 20s or 30s I doubt it would have appealed but that is personal choice.
> 
> So no, I am not against MMA. I think for people who wish to participate in MMA competition it is probably the best way to train. But, I am the first to admit, I don't have the right skill set to teach MMA so although you may claim I teach MMA, that is just not true, and I do *not* offer MMA training.



When I say "MMA", I'm simply saying mixed martial arts. Not the sport itself, but the combining of individual styles into something new. For example, if I ever decided to combine Karate with Bjj and teach it as a unified style, I would be teaching a mixed martial art, much like Lyoto Machida's style of karate.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> So pretty much everyone is lying unless they go with your version of events?
> 
> Nice to know.
> 
> Why yes. I personally don't believe that individual arts have all the answers. This is especially the case with archaic arts that don't evolve with the times, and tend to believe that they had all of the answers way back in the day. I personally wouldn't recommend either Aikido or Goju for self defense, but, I think that they're better combined than they are separated.
> 
> When I say "MMA", I'm simply saying mixed martial arts. Not the sport itself, but the combining of individual styles into something new. For example, if I ever decided to combine Karate with Bjj and teach it as a unified style, I would be teaching a mixed martial art, much like Lyoto Machida's style of karate.


Hanzou, this just muddies the waters.  MMA is a sport and when the term is used, it speaks specifically to training for competition in that sport.  While the specific formula for trianing may vary, as with Machida, the ruleset of the sport is front and center.

Mixing two or more styles without having the ruleset in mind is really just crosstraining.  MMA may once have been as you suggest.  But now, and at the very least since 2001 when the UFC adopted the NJ rules and held the first sanctioned MMA event, "MMA" and "Mixed Martial Arts" is a sport as well defined as Boxing, Tennis or any other sport. 

It sounds to me that you're endorsing crosstraining, which I think is a good idea and one that others here can surely also agree with.  But, it ain't MMA unless it's related to the sport of MMA.  My opinion, at least.


----------



## Hanzou

Steve said:


> Hanzou, this just muddies the waters.  MMA is a sport and when the term is used, it speaks specifically to training for competition in that sport.  While the specific formula for trianing may vary, as with Machida, the ruleset of the sport is front and center.
> 
> Mixing two or more styles without having the ruleset in mind is really just crosstraining.  MMA may once have been as you suggest.  But now, and at the very least since 2001 when the UFC adopted the NJ rules and held the first sanctioned MMA event, "MMA" and "Mixed Martial Arts" is a sport as well defined as Boxing, Tennis or any other sport.
> 
> It sounds to me that you're endorsing crosstraining, which I think is a good idea and one that others here can surely also agree with.  But, it ain't MMA unless it's related to the sport of MMA.  My opinion, at least.



Eh, I believe that there's the sport of MMA, and various MMA arts out there. For example, what if I trained someone in Bjj and Shotokan, couldn't they still enter the UFC and fight utilizing a MMA?

Additionally, I use the acronym "MMA" for "Modern Martial Arts" as well.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> Eh, I believe that there's the sport of MMA, and various MMA arts out there. For example, what if I trained someone in Bjj and Shotokan, couldn't they still enter the UFC and fight utilizing a MMA?
> 
> Additionally, I use the acronym "MMA" for "Modern Martial Arts" as well.


Dude.  That's just inviting confusion.  

Fwiw, if you're combining bjj and shotokan with the intent to compete in Mma, then sure... Call it Mma.  Otherwise, I'd call it cross training and leave it at that.   Less confusion. 

And modern martial art just makes my brain hurt.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Considering that she was screaming for help, I would think that assistance was quite necessary.



Why wouldn't you scream for help? Or advise anybody else not scream for help?


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Why wouldn't you scream for help? Or advise anybody else not scream for help?



If I have the situation under control, why would I be screaming for help?


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Yep, when it all boils down and you twist the truth it usually ends up that way. You twist things so much that it appears you even believe it yourself.
> 
> As to news reports. First reports rushing to break a story often miss important bits. They generally come out later as they did in this case.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would say this. You suggested my training was setting females up for failure, now you say because I'm combining martial arts it's different.
> 
> Why would you suggest I was against MMA training? Like most people, there are certain systems or types of training that don't appeal to me. MMA training is one of them, but that has nothing to do with MMA. The very practical reason is, although I hate to play the age card, MMA in your 60s is not the most sensible place to play. Even in my 20s or 30s I doubt it would have appealed but that is personal choice.
> 
> So no, I am not against MMA. I think for people who wish to participate in MMA competition it is probably the best way to train. But, I am the first to admit, I don't have the right skill set to teach MMA so although you may claim I teach MMA, that is just not true, and I do *not* offer MMA training.



The thing with mma is that why you don't like it is different to the context here.

Mma train striking. So if anybody is suggesting mma for self defence they are suggesting striking for self defence.

Yes they also train grappling but that is kind of what I was suggesting at about post two.

The rest is off topic so I will leave that alone.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> If I have the situation under control, why would I be screaming for help?



In case it gets out of control or to get more control to ensure a weapon is not pulled to effect a lawful arrest to prevent a third party engaging against you to cover your actions in court or to impress your friends with how bad *** you are while still trying to come across as humble.


----------



## elder999

Hanzou said:


> If I have the situation under control, why would I be screaming for help?



Because it is what your are trained to do.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> In case it gets out of control or to get more control to ensure a weapon is not pulled to effect a lawful arrest to prevent a third party engaging against you to cover your actions in court or to impress your friends with how bad *** you are while still trying to come across as humble.



Well that's called pulling out your phone and calling the cops, not screaming for help hoping that someone pops up and rescues you.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Well that's called pulling out your phone and calling the cops, not screaming for help hoping that someone pops up and rescues you.



Ok. You can use a combination of both. 

Does screaming for help cost you in any way? Considering someone might just come along and help you.


----------



## elder999

drop bear said:


> Does screaming for help cost you in any way? Considering someone might just come along and help you.



Or come along and think the other person needs help-especially if you "have it under control."

Caught a kid trying to hot-wire my bike in Denver-he came at me with a screwdriver. Not only screamed for help, but, after having him "completely under control," called the cops on my cell phone and stayed on the phone saying that I'd be the guy holding the guy on the ground and talking on the cell phone.

Cops got out of the cars laughing, instead of with their guns drawn....


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Ok. You can use a combination of both.
> 
> Does screaming for help cost you in any way? Considering someone might just come along and help you.



It just seems weird that you would be screaming for help while you're beating the crap out of someone or choking them. I can't remember a single instance where I've ever seen that happen. Typically, the person catching the beat down is the one screaming for help.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> It just seems weird that you would be screaming for help while you're beating the crap out of someone or choking them. I can't remember a single instance where I've ever seen that happen. Typically, the person catching the beat down is the one screaming for help.



We have an instance in the karate girl. And someone did come and help. So as a method I would suggest it has merit.


----------



## drop bear

elder999 said:


> Or come along and think the other person needs help-especially if you "have it under control."
> 
> Caught a kid trying to hot-wire my bike in Denver-he came at me with a screwdriver. Not only screamed for help, but, after having him "completely under control," called the cops on my cell phone and stayed on the phone saying that I'd be the guy holding the guy on the ground and talking on the cell phone.
> 
> Cops got out of the cars laughing, instead of with their guns drawn....



I suplexed a guy in a pub once who I new had some sneaky mates lurking around. And called for help. And in this case it was just random help because I was on my own and him and his friends were trying to terrorize the place.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Re: screaming for help

Scenario 1: Bad guy jumps me. I block his punches, counter strike, throw him, mount him and submit him. Cops arrive, separate us, and cuff both of us while they sort things out. They interview witnesses to find out what happened and the response is "I don't know. I just looked over and the tall guy was beating the crap out of the other one." Odds are I may spend the night in jail.

Scenario 2: Bad guy jumps me. I scream for help while I block his punches, counter strike, throw him, mount him and submit him. Cops arrive, separate us, and cuff both of us while they sort things out. They interview witnesses to find out what happened and the response is "The tall guy was yelling for help and trying to get away. The other guy got hold of them and then must of tripped and the tall guy ended up on top." Odds are better I get to go home.

One of my old training partners was a cop and he could sustain a steady chorus of "Please don't hurt me! Help! Let me go!" while he "accidentally" stumbled in to his opponent with unobtrusive elbow shots, knees, and trips.


----------



## elder999

Tony Dismukes said:


> Re: screaming for help
> 
> Scenario 1: Bad guy jumps me. I block his punches, counter strike, throw him, mount him and submit him. Cops arrive, separate us, and cuff both of us while they sort things out. They interview witnesses to find out what happened and the response is "I don't know. I just looked over and the tall guy was beating the crap out of the other one." Odds are I may spend the night in jail.
> 
> Scenario 2: Bad guy jumps me. I scream for help while I block his punches, counter strike, throw him, mount him and submit him. Cops arrive, separate us, and cuff both of us while they sort things out. They interview witnesses to find out what happened and the response is "The tall guy was yelling for help and trying to get away. The other guy got hold of them and then must of tripped and the tall guy ended up on top." Odds are better I get to go home.
> 
> One of my old training partners was a cop and he could sustain a steady chorus of "Please don't hurt me! Help! Let me go!" while he "accidentally" stumbled in to his opponent with unobtrusive elbow shots, knees, and trips.



Pretty much what I'm saying.....I mean, it's dark, and there I am in the parking lot: big black guy holding down a somewhat roughed up, skinny white tweaker......some might insist that I was lucky they didn't shoot me anyway.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I didn't get shot, though, or roughed up, or tased, or have to spend time in the police station-I showed my ID,  gave a statement, and rode off on my bike.......


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Re: screaming for help
> 
> Scenario 1: Bad guy jumps me. I block his punches, counter strike, throw him, mount him and submit him. Cops arrive, separate us, and cuff both of us while they sort things out. They interview witnesses to find out what happened and the response is "I don't know. I just looked over and the tall guy was beating the crap out of the other one." Odds are I may spend the night in jail.
> 
> Scenario 2: Bad guy jumps me. I scream for help while I block his punches, counter strike, throw him, mount him and submit him. Cops arrive, separate us, and cuff both of us while they sort things out. They interview witnesses to find out what happened and the response is "The tall guy was yelling for help and trying to get away. The other guy got hold of them and then must of tripped and the tall guy ended up on top." Odds are better I get to go home.
> 
> One of my old training partners was a cop and he could sustain a steady chorus of "Please don't hurt me! Help! Let me go!" while he "accidentally" stumbled in to his opponent with unobtrusive elbow shots, knees, and trips.



Used to be the thing to do in guard before people realised what it was.


----------



## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> We have an instance in the karate girl. And someone did come and help. So as a method I would suggest it has merit.



How exactly would someone be scared off by a third party if you have control of the situation?


----------



## jezr74

Would you be saying the same thing if the karate person was male?


----------



## K-man

Hanzou said:


> So pretty much everyone is lying unless they go with your version of events?


No. You lie in that you ignore any reports that don't back your version of events. In this case all the more recent reports say that the young lady was in control when help arrived. The guy who arrived did not rescue the lady as you try to twist it. You also talk about her screaming, an emotive term, when in fact she was yelling. A subtle difference but important in the context where self defence training would teach her to yell.

Me? I haven't a dog in this fight but it annoys me when you deliberately misrepresent the facts. I read at least another dozen later reports of the incident and none of them mention screaming. Even if they did, would that really matter. Either way an attacker doesn't want to have others drawn to the scene by noise, hence the advice to yell as loud as you can.



Hanzou said:


> Why yes. I personally don't believe that individual arts have all the answers. This is especially the case with archaic arts that don't evolve with the times, and tend to believe that they had all of the answers way back in the day. I personally wouldn't recommend either Aikido or Goju for self defense, but, I think that they're better combined than they are separated.


Well it is obvious you don't read posts very well. I haven't combined Aikido and Karate at all. I studied Aikido, and still study Aikido, to better understand the techniques already in my Goju Karate. 

Archaic Arts? Wresting, boxing, judo, ju jutsu, etc. are all older than Karate.




Hanzou said:


> When I say "MMA", I'm simply saying mixed martial arts. Not the sport itself, but the combining of individual styles into something new. For example, if I ever decided to combine Karate with Bjj and teach it as a unified style, I would be teaching a mixed martial art, much like Lyoto Machida's style of karate.


In that case I don't teach MMA in my karate class but maybe I do teach a very watered down version in the Krav. Then again, by your definition I am not teaching something new. The trouble is, with Krav, they take the best of everything so technically, although it contains bits from everywhere, is it MMA or Krav? As *Steve* says, you are deliberately muddying the waters. How many MMA gyms teach weapon disarms or even the use of weapons? Does that mean that the training in an MMA gym is not real MMA because they don't do weapons or multiple attackers?


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## K-man

drop bear said:


> The thing with mma is that why you don't like it is different to the context here.
> 
> Mma train striking. So if anybody is suggesting mma for self defence they are suggesting striking for self defence.
> 
> Yes they also train grappling but that is kind of what I was suggesting at about post two.
> 
> The rest is off topic so I will leave that alone.


Not sure what the first sentence is supposed to mean but I have no problem with people training MMA. However, if someone particularly wanted to train something for SD I would recommend Krav over MMA any day because Krav is training for that exact situation.


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> It just seems weird that you would be screaming for help while you're beating the crap out of someone or choking them. I can't remember a single instance where I've ever seen that happen. Typically, the person catching the beat down is the one screaming for help.


Perhaps you could give us an example of the attacker screaming for help if that is 'typical'. 

Oh and who, apart from the first report, said she was screaming for help? Are you aware that yelling is part of SD training?


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## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> One of my old training partners was a cop and he could sustain a steady chorus of "Please don't hurt me! Help! Let me go!" while he "accidentally" stumbled in to his opponent with unobtrusive elbow shots, knees, and trips.


Exactly, especially with all the CCTV stuff around.


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## elder999

K-man said:


> Archaic Arts? Wresting, boxing, judo, ju jutsu, etc. are all older than Karate.



Gotta correct this a little.....judo isn't really "older than karate."

However, I guess we gotta call wrestling and boxing "traditional..."


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-*


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## K-man

elder999 said:


> Gotta correct this a little.....judo isn't really "older than karate."
> 
> However, I guess we gotta call wrestling and boxing "traditional..."


Well ... If anything a line ball. Judo, early 1880s. Karate into Japan early 1900s. Grey area, when did karate in Okinawa become 'karate'?


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## elder999

K-man said:


> Well ... If anything a line ball. Judo, early 1880s. Karate into Japan early 1900s. Grey area, when did karate in Okinawa become 'karate'?



The first known use of the term _tudi_, or "China Hand," which is what _kara-te_ also means, was by Sakukawa Kanga in 1806-he was Matsumara's teacher.Matsumara went on to teach Itosu Anko, who went on to teach pretty much everybody....all before "judo" was formalized in 1882. In fact, the Naha-te, from which your own Goju was founded, was itself founded in 1881-when the terms _tudi, te, and *kara* te_ were already in use.
just sayin'.....


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## K-man

elder999 said:


> The first known use of the term _tudi_, or "China Hand," which is what _kara-te_ also means, was by Sakukawa Kanga in 1806-he was Matsumara's teacher.Matsumara went on to teach Itosu Anko, who went on to teach pretty much everybody....all before "judo" was formalized in 1882. In fact, the Naha-te, from which your own Goju was founded, was itself founded in 1881-when the terms _tudi, te, and *kara* te_ were already in use.
> just sayin'.....


Maybe, maybe not. In the early days it was 'Te' or 'Tode' or variations thereof. Even after Sakukawa Kanga instructed Matsumura, Mutsumura founded Shuri-te. I thought the term kara-te came about a little later, but really, we are discussing semantics. It was just the archaic bit that got to me.


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## drop bear

jezr74 said:


> Would you be saying the same thing if the karate person was male?



Male makes it easy by the way because then you could bring up this trend of pensioner boxers who are mad keen for beating the tar out of young criminals.


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## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> Would you be saying the same thing if the karate person was male?



Why wouldn't I? A guy screaming for help, attacker flees only when someone else appears on the scene, male ends up with bruised ribs and gashed head.

I would say he should probably bring some grappling into his game.


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Perhaps you could give us an example of the attacker screaming for help if that is 'typical'.



I didn't say attacker, I said the person catching the beat down.



> Oh and who, apart from the first report, said she was screaming for help? Are you aware that yelling is part of SD training?



So are you insuinating that the first article made that part up?

And yeah, I'm aware that people scream for help when in danger. This is the first time I'm hearing about screaming for help to avoid getting arrested for beating the crap out of someone.


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## Zero

Hanzou said:


> If I have the situation under control, why would I be screaming for help?


Different strokes for different situations of course.  I am not sure if you have had any SD training or been in a SD situation or an out of tournament fight...maybe you have?

For example, I have been taught in my specific self defence training, (ie, not "judo as SD", not "bjj as SD", not "karate as SD" but specific self defence focused training (such as avoidance/awareness/de-escalation/legal considerations/advisable action to take after a confrontation, etc) that it may be, again on a case-by-case basis, advisable to make an audible show/demonstration while in a situation/altercation that you assess as may be going South. Such as having your hands at the ready but in a non-hostile manner, ie hands up but palms out in a placatory gesture and saying "hey, leave me alone, sorry buddy, I don't want to fight/I don't want any trouble, etc" and as the bum comes in you pop him one and put him on his can.  When you find yourself embroiled in the ensuing legal system and looking for witness corroborations etc, these things can help. This came from LEOs and a professional SD instructor that trains LEOS and security personnel and civilians, it also just plain makes sense.

It is just common sense for a female (and here I actually mean anyone, male or female) before (if she is aware of an imminent oncoming threat) and during a confrontation to yell out and shout for help to the extent possible.

In addition, if you have someone under control but not knocked out, ie immobilised by a lock/choke, why would you not call for help?  Or are you going to (i) stay in that position for, like, ever or (ii) get up and hope the assailant is not going to try anything again and you'll just both call it quits and walk off your separate ways (with the assailant of course having a new found appreciation and respect of your macho/all male fighting bad-*** ability)...you may have SD training or experience Hanzou but sometimes your comments seem to indicate you have no real world experience on this matter and have not gleaned any knowledge on such from others that have...


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Why wouldn't I? A guy screaming for help, attacker flees only when someone else appears on the scene, male ends up with bruised ribs and gashed head.
> 
> I would say he should probably bring some grappling into his game.



Look absolutely you should have some grappling as part of your self defence tool box. I am not sure why you would need to make the choice.

For self defence I would suggest that before you become the worlds most competent grappler. Become a functional striker.  It absolutely enhances your grappling.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> I didn't say attacker, I said the person catching the beat down.
> 
> 
> 
> So are you insuinating that the first article made that part up?
> 
> And yeah, I'm aware that people scream for help when in danger. This is the first time I'm hearing about screaming for help to avoid getting arrested for beating the crap out of someone.



It doesn't cost you anything to do. And it may help. So why wouldn't you do it. Regardless if you are winning or loosing.

Calling for help and the the effect it may have.





I mean why not?


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## Hanzou

Zero said:


> Different strokes for different situations of course.  I am not sure if you have had any SD training or been in a SD situation or an out of tournament fight...maybe you have?
> 
> For example, I have been taught in my specific self defence training, (ie, not "judo as SD", not "bjj as SD", not "karate as SD" but specific self defence focused training (such as avoidance/awareness/de-escalation/legal considerations/advisable action to take after a confrontation, etc) that it may be, again on a case-by-case basis, advisable to make an audible show/demonstration while in a situation/altercation that you assess as may be going South. Such as having your hands at the ready but in a non-hostile manner, ie hands up but palms out in a placatory gesture and saying "hey, leave me alone, sorry buddy, I don't want to fight/I don't want any trouble, etc" and as the bum comes in you pop him one and put him on his can.  When you find yourself embroiled in the ensuing legal system and looking for witness corroborations etc, these things can help. This came from LEOs and a professional SD instructor that trains LEOS and security personnel and civilians, it also just plain makes sense.



Yes I've received that type of training, and that's different than yelling for help while controlling someone.



> In addition, if you have someone under control but not knocked out, ie immobilised by a lock/choke, why would you not call for help?  Or are you going to (i) stay in that position for, like, ever or (ii) get up and hope the assailant is not going to try anything again and you'll just both call it quits and walk off your separate ways (with the assailant of course having a new found appreciation and respect of your macho/all male fighting bad-*** ability)...you may have SD training or experience Hanzou but sometimes your comments seem to indicate you have no real world experience on this matter and have not gleaned any knowledge on such from others that have...



Uh, why wouldn't I just immobilize them? If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply remove the threat?

And yeah, I've been in my fair share of scraps, but I've never screamed for help while I was fighting someone. Beforehand, I have put my hands up and told people to back off, leave me alone, yadda, yadda......

But scream for help while I'm beating the crap out of someone? Never.


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## Zero

Hanzou said:


> I didn't say attacker, I said the person catching the beat down.
> 
> 
> 
> So are you insuinating that the first article made that part up?
> 
> And yeah, I'm aware that people scream for help when in danger. This is the first time I'm hearing about screaming for help to avoid getting arrested for beating the crap out of someone.


If it's the first time you have heard of it, are you saying that somehow makes it less valid or relevant?  Plenty of things I have only heard of for the first time and they turned out pretty sound. 
...I am not envisioning some dude sitting on top of some fella and bashing the living socks out of him and while raining down his blows screaming in a high pitched voice "help me, someone, please help me!  His face is hurting my hand!  I can't stop hitting this poor guy!  Make it stop!!!"  That would be kinda sick/wrong (although possibly funny).  : )


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## Zero

Hanzou said:


> Yes I've received that type of training, and that's different than yelling for help while controlling someone.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, why wouldn't I just immobilize them? If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply remove the threat?
> 
> And yeah, I've been in my fair share of scraps, but I've never screamed for help while I was fighting someone. Beforehand, I have put my hands up and told people to back off, leave me alone, yadda, yadda......
> 
> But scream for help while I'm beating the crap out of someone? Never.



Seems like we're on the same page then on that one then about "screaming". 

Although I don't understand what you mean when you say: "_If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply *remove* the threat_?"  Are you seeing and defining "control" as different to "remove"?  There is certainly a big difference in my book!  If so, if you are already in a choke/submission, which is "control" - what do you mean by remove?


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## Hanzou

Zero said:


> If it's the first time you have heard of it, are you saying that somehow makes it less valid or relevant?  Plenty of things I have only heard of for the first time and they turned out pretty sound.
> ...I am not envisioning some dude sitting on top of some fella and bashing the living socks out of him and while raining down his blows screaming in a high pitched voice "help me, someone, please help me!  His face is hurting my hand!  I can't stop hitting this poor guy!  Make it stop!!!"  That would be kinda sick/wrong (although possibly funny).  : )



Well that's what I'm envisioning, and yeah it just doesn't make a lot of sense.



Zero said:


> Seems like we're on the same page then on that one then about "screaming".
> 
> Although I don't understand what you mean when you say: "_If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply *remove* the threat_?"  Are you seeing and defining "control" as different to "remove"?  There is certainly a big difference in my book!  If so, if you are already in a choke/submission, which is "control" - what do you mean by remove?



I was under the impression that in this hypothetical situation I'm yelling for help because the guy under my control is still a threat to me. So why not just put the guy to sleep and then I don't have to worry about the threat anymore?


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## Zero

Hanzou said:


> Uh, why wouldn't I just *immobilize* them? If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply remove the threat?


Hmmm, look I am the first one to say when you're faced with a threatening situation that you should o what you gotta do and do it right.  But...you may well be getting into very, very murky territory from a "self defence" mitigant if you wind up in court, if you have had some guy in a submission, possibly for some time, and then "crack-o" pop his elbow, or something, especially if there are witnesses.  I think that could go down less well than simply punching the guy outright and knocking him out on the immediate threat being presented.

May not seem fair but optics can go a long way on these things!


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## Zero

drop bear said:


> It doesn't cost you anything to do. And it may help. So why wouldn't you do it. Regardless if you are winning or loosing.
> 
> Calling for help and the the effect it may have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean why not?


Yikes, what a bleeder!!   : )


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## Hanzou

Zero said:


> Hmmm, look I am the first one to say when you're faced with a threatening situation that you should o what you gotta do and do it right.  But...you may well be getting into very, very murky territory from a "self defence" mitigant if you wind up in court, if you have had some guy in a submission, possibly for some time, and then "crack-o" pop his elbow, or something, especially if there are witnesses.  I think that could go down less well than simply punching the guy outright and knocking him out on the immediate threat being presented.
> 
> May not seem fair but optics can go a long way on these things!



I agree. My point is why scream for help when you can pummel, cripple, or put the guy to sleep? Seems like a waste of energy.

Obviously, how you finish off your would be assailant depends on your location. But yeah, sitting on top of someone and punching them in the face while you're screaming for help just seems like a bad comedy sketch.

Or it makes you look like a grade-A psycho.


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## Buka

Stumbled upon this. Kind of interesting.

Woman vs. man in a bare-knuckle no-rules fight It happened and the story is a wild one MMAjunkie


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## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> I agree. My point is why scream for help when you can pummel, cripple, or put the guy to sleep? Seems like a waste of energy.



better for legal delineation between victim and assailant


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## Zero

Xue Sheng said:


> better for legal delineation between victim and assailant


There's always a bigger picture, isn't there?  Some people can't help but get caught up in the pixels though.


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## Hanzou

Xue Sheng said:


> better for legal delineation between victim and assailant



If you say so. Still won't catch me screaming for help if I have the upper hand in a street fight.

I doubt a woman would need that legal delineation though. Especially if she's smaller than her assailant.


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## Xue Sheng

Hanzou said:


> If you say so. Still won't catch me screaming for help if I have the upper hand in a street fight.
> 
> I doubt a woman would need that legal delineation though. Especially if she's smaller than her assailant.



Don't much care what you would do, don't much care about your opinion either


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