# More Wing Chun Boxing!



## KPM (Apr 22, 2018)

The other thread was getting kind of long and rambling.  So I thought I would put these videos on a new thread.  I've been meaning to shoot some new videos with my guys, but have had a hard time getting them together when the camera was around.  So I went ahead and filmed today with my faithful buddy BOB.  I will still try and get some footage with a live partner later!


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## Martial D (Apr 22, 2018)

Nice vids as always. One thing though, that sinking extended arm as kick defense move...

Exactly what sort of kick is that meant to stop?


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## KPM (Apr 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Nice vids as always. One thing though, that sinking extended arm as kick defense move...
> 
> Exactly what sort of kick is that meant to stop?


 
Not meant to  "stop" the kick, meant to deflect as you are stepping way from the kick!   Works best against a kick coming straight in....like a front kick or side kick....at about mid-thigh level or higher.


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## macher (Apr 25, 2018)

Good stuff. I’ve been watching videos of guy named Alan Orr and he seems to teach similar and does a lot of pressure testing.


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## KPM (Apr 25, 2018)

Yeah, Alan Orr is great!  His guys are probably the Wing Chun group that have been most involved in MMA competitions.


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## KPM (Apr 25, 2018)

Hey Guys!   On the FB forum I've gotten all kinds of flack and  argument when I've pointed out the difference between "Classical" Wing Chun and "Wing Chun Boxing."  I've explained that the core mechanics or "engine" behind the way a specific martial art moves is what makes it distinctive.  This is how the art sends and receives force and moves about. This is what is recognizable when a western boxer or Muay Thai guy is fighting  and no one doubts what method they are using.  And I'm not talking about individual techniques.  But several people just didn't seem to get the difference and refused to acknowledge that there is a "classical" mechanics in Wing Chun, or that they were straying away from this "classical" engine and incorporating more of a boxing/kickboxing engine.  So I would ask if they thought Ip Man or his first generation students would fight the way modern Wing Chun guys had been seen to be fighting in recently posted clips.  The answers weren't good, as you might imagine!

So in the clips above I demonstrated the San Sik with "Classical" mechanics or "engine" first, and then with a "boxing" engine.   Do you guys have any problem telling the difference?  Can you see the  distinction I am making?   Below is an older video where I explain what  an "engine" is in regards to martial arts.


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## Martial D (Apr 25, 2018)

Honestly, if you don't understand the difference between boxing power generation and WC power generation I would question your understanding of both.

However, many people have expanded what classical wing Chun means to extend to pretty much any motion the human body is capable of making. It's very hard to have a productive dialogue with such people, as they are either on their third cup of Kool aid, or they don't really understand classical Wing Chun.


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## KPM (Apr 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Honestly, if you don't understand the difference between boxing power generation and WC power generation I would question your understanding of both.
> 
> However, many people have expanded what classical wing Chun means to extend to pretty much any motion the human body is capable of making. It's very hard to have a productive dialogue with such people, as they are either on their third cup of Kool aid, or they don't really understand classical Wing Chun.


 
More than once people commenting I think were students of teachers that had already made some "modernization" or "evolution" of their Wing Chun.  So I think these people truly don't have a conception of what "classical" Wing Chun is supposed to be....and they don't even realize it!


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## macher (Apr 25, 2018)

KPM said:


> More than once people commenting I think were students of teachers that had already made some "modernization" or "evolution" of their Wing Chun.  So I think these people truly don't have a conception of what "classical" Wing Chun is supposed to be....and they don't even realize it!



When I practiced Bagua years ago our teacher modified it very similar to Wing Chun Boxing. But I didn’t give a sh*t cause it was very effective. Other similar practitioners like Tai Chi etc made fun of us.


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## macher (Apr 25, 2018)

KPM said:


> More than once people commenting I think were students of teachers that had already made some "modernization" or "evolution" of their Wing Chun.  So I think these people truly don't have a conception of what "classical" Wing Chun is supposed to be....and they don't even realize it!



Like I said in another post others used to say ‘doesn’t look like Bagua!’

Here’s the answer pertaining to Wing Chun but same principles.


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## KPM (Apr 26, 2018)

^^^^ Like I noted above, I'm not referring to individual techniques.  That is what Alan is focusing on in this clip.  Sure, Pak or Tan can be done as a punch.  That's still Wing Chun.  What I'm talking about is the core mechanics used to generate power.  In that clip Alan is using "classical" mechanics to generate power.  I was part of his on-line mentorship program for a year.  It was really good and Alan stuck to "classical" mechanics.... even a better version than most!  But I have to say that seeing some of his guys in MMA clips, they look like they are doing a different system.  More than once, if you weren't told ahead of time which was the Wing Chun guy, you wouldn't have known!  And the argument is....well, that punch was actually functioning as a Tan Sau...or a Pak Sau...etc.  So its Wing Chun!  But what I am seeing is a guying bouncing around on the balls of his feet, throwing wide punches from the shoulder, bobbing and weaving, and generating power by swiveling at the hip like a boxer.  Its those core mechanics that count, not individual technique.  And the truth of the matter seems to be this......those "boxing-like" core mechanics are what works!  This is what is more instinctive to most people!  This is what comes out under pressure!   This is what ends being trained when anyone...including Wing Chun people.....train specifically for MMA.   Yet those same people take offense if it is pointed out to them that what they are doing is not "classical" Wing Chun!   What they hear is "you aren't doing Wing Chun!"  What they hear is "you are doing it wrong!"   I tell them no, you are doing "Wing Chun Boxing" or "Wing Chun Kickboxing" or "Wing Chun MMA."  You are doing a modernized or evolved form of Wing Chun and not "classical" or "traditional" Wing Chun.  That just seems like common sense, doesn't it?  But the number of people that have denied that is what they are doing is surprising!


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## KPM (Apr 26, 2018)

To another point Alan made in the video......He said Wing Chun applied doesn't look like the forms because you don't take the forms into the ring with you just as a Boxer doesn't take the heavy bag or focus mitts into the ring with him.   But there is flaw in the logic here.   When a Boxer competes he is using the same mechanics and power generation in the ring that he uses when training on the heavy bag or focus mitts.  He doesn't train one way, and then fight another!   However, does it make sense for a Wing Chun guy to train "classical" Wing Chun mechanics in his forms, and then resort to more of a western Boxing mechanic for power generation in the ring? 

I've said before that "Wing Chun Boxing" currently exists on a spectrum.  On one end of the spectrum are the guys training pretty classical Wing Chun and then including some boxing methods like hooks or high covers when sparring.   On the other end of the spectrum are guys like Paul Rackemann that are doing western boxing with some Wing Chun concepts and techniques added on.  My goal is to be somewhere in the middle.


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## KPM (Apr 26, 2018)

Some of you might be asking yourselves...."why does it matter"?   Which is a good question!      One of things I have pointed out in the past is that an efficient system or fighting method should..."fight they way you train and train the way you fight."   So to me, it doesn't make much sense to spend lots of time training "classical" mechanics in the forms and drills and Chi Sau, and then to abandon those "classical" mechanics when someone actually fights.  And to resort to a boxing-like mechanics that they haven't been training and therefore end up not using as well as they could.  That is not efficient training.  However, if the goal is NOT to be a good fighter....but rather to train for the fun of it, for good exercise, and to be good at Chi Sau....then no problem!   But people just need to admit to themselves and others that this is why they are training and stop trying to hold "classical" Wing Chun up as some kind "uber effective super system."


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## macher (Apr 26, 2018)

KPM said:


> Some of you might be asking yourselves...."why does it matter"?   Which is a good question!      One of things I have pointed out in the past is that an efficient system or fighting method should..."fight they way you train and train the way you fight."   So to me, it doesn't make much sense to spend lots of time training "classical" mechanics in the forms and drills and Chi Sau, and then to abandon those "classical" mechanics when someone actually fights.  And to resort to a boxing-like mechanics that they haven't been training and therefore end up not using as well as they could.  That is not efficient training.  However, if the goal is NOT to be a good fighter....but rather to train for the fun of it, for good exercise, and to be good at Chi Sau....then no problem!   But people just need to admit to themselves and others that this is why they are training and stop trying to hold "classical" Wing Chun up as some kind "uber effective super system."



Makes a lot of sense. If the engine is western boxing then you have to base teaching and applications from that engine. The way I learned Bagua boxing was purely from western boxing mechanics. Then people will say ‘you’re trying to re-invent the wheel’.


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## TMA17 (Apr 26, 2018)

I don’t see how one can not see how the power mechanics are different.  I think it’s hard for some to accept it probably because they are practicing it.  You don’t even have to practice WC long to realize this.  It’s very clear to see.   I may have to reactivate my FB account to see these comments lol!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 26, 2018)

Why not just to replace the WC engine by boxing engine completely?


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## Martial D (Apr 26, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why not just to replace the WC engine by boxing engine completely?


That's sorta KPMs gig.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That's sorta KPMs gig.


The WC basic forms training should be modified to meet the boxing engine need. I started a thread "How to modify the WC SNT form" by adding long fist engine requirement in such as:

1. Bend your knees and then straight your knee - You can borrow force from the ground and up.
2. Rotate your body - You can transfer force from your back to your front.
3. Pull your other hand back, send your punching arm out - This is the center of the long fist engine.
4. Line up your back shoulder, chest, front shoulder, and punching arm - Your punch can have the maximum reach.

So what kind of SNT training modification will be need for boxing engine?


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## KPM (Apr 26, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So what kind of SNT training modification will be need for boxing engine?



The SNT form is about stance and structure, not power generation.   I still use the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as a foundational stance in my Wing Chun Boxing.  The "boxer's pivot" for power generation works just as well from there as from any "neutral stance."   So I wouldn't modify the Ip Man SNT form hardly at all.  I would have the weight centered over the K1 point, not back on the heels.  I wouldn't lock the pelvis forward but would keep it "neutral" and "floating."  But other Wing Chun people do this as well.  I would raise the "point of action" for most of the techniques from mid-sternum level to head level.  But TWC already does this.   I guess I'm saying I would do TWC's SNT form.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Honestly, if you don't understand the difference between boxing power generation and WC power generation I would question your understanding of both.
> 
> However, many people have expanded what classical wing Chun means to extend to pretty much any motion the human body is capable of making. It's very hard to have a productive dialogue with such people, as they are either on their third cup of Kool aid, or they don't really understand classical Wing Chun.



There is a big misconception about boxing power as people think they lean to make power. And they kind of don't.

They also walk in to position to make power like chunners.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why not just to replace the WC engine by boxing engine completely?


.I am interested to know what is in the wing chun engine that is not already in boxing.


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## Martial D (Apr 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is a big misconception about boxing power as people think they lean to make power. And they kind of don't.
> 
> They also walk in to position to make power like chunners.





drop bear said:


> .I am interested to know what is in the wing chun engine that is not already in boxing.



Good questions. Yes, there are certainly differences.

In WC you get power from drag step and loose straight shots driven from the elbow. That is, moving forward with your weight back, combined with 0 tension in the shoulder or arm, from shifting on your heels without much body rotation, and from pulling with one and striking with the other, just to name a few examples that are alien to boxing.


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## KPM (Apr 27, 2018)

^^^^ See my video about "engines" early up in this thread.


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## wckf92 (Apr 27, 2018)

Martial D said:


> In WC you get power from drag step...



What's a drag step?


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## Martial D (Apr 27, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> What's a drag step?


I don't know the Chinese name for this one. Where you pull your rear set back foot forward with your front one, moving forward with weight maintained on the rear foot.


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## KPM (Apr 27, 2018)

^^^^^ Something the Leung Ting lineage is known for.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Good questions. Yes, there are certainly differences.
> 
> In WC you get power from drag step and loose straight shots driven from the elbow. That is, moving forward with your weight back, combined with 0 tension in the shoulder or arm, from shifting on your heels without much body rotation, and from pulling with one and striking with the other, just to name a few examples that are alien to boxing.



Not common but I don't think alien. Lead right concepts are similar.


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## Martial D (Apr 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not common but I don't think alien. Lead right concepts are similar.


No...not really. Not at all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 27, 2018)

Martial D said:


> In WC you get power from drag step ..


Drag step - front foot step in, back foot follow.

Do you think WC power generation coordinate punch with 

- front foot landing, or
- back foot landing?


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## wckf92 (Apr 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Drag step - front foot step in, back foot follow.
> 
> Do you think WC power generation coordinate punch with
> 
> ...



In my opinion, it can be both methods... depending on timing and distance. One gets its effect due to bodyweight impact, one is from proper push/pull mechanics.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> In my opinion, it can be both methods... depending on timing and distance. One gets its effect due to bodyweight impact, one is from proper push/pull mechanics.


In training, you either coordinate your punch with front foot landing, or coordinate your punch with back foot landing, If you train as you fight, it should be either or option. If you train in one way and fight with another way, you may feel uncomfortable.


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## Martial D (Apr 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Drag step - front foot step in, back foot follow.
> 
> Do you think WC power generation coordinate punch with
> 
> ...



It's...different. The power is from the rear leg but not really from it "landing" as it doesn't leave the ground.


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## macher (Apr 28, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> In my opinion, it can be both methods... depending on timing and distance. One gets its effect due to bodyweight impact, one is from proper push/pull mechanics.



It’s the shifting up your body weight depending on the strike in western boxing. Sort of like fencing.


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## KPM (Apr 29, 2018)

Here are some more video lessons.   The two person version of each hopefully will be filmed next weekend!


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## macher (Apr 29, 2018)

KPM said:


> Here are some more video lessons.   The two person version of each hopefully will be filmed next weekend!



Very good stuff. I can see this being effective in real life vs the traditional.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2018)

Martial D said:


> It's...different. The power is from the rear leg but not really from it "landing" as it doesn't leave the ground.


You move your front foot from F1 to F2. Your back foot then followed from B1 to B2. When move do you coordinate your punch with? F2, or B2?


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## Martial D (Apr 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You move your front foot from F1 to F2. Your back foot then followed from B1 to B2. When move do you coordinate your punch with? F2, or B2?


B1-b2


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2018)

Martial D said:


> B1-b2



The bananas in pajamas?


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## Martial D (Apr 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The bananas in pajamas?


Wing Chun bananas


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Good questions. Yes, there are certainly differences.
> 
> In WC you get power from drag step and loose straight shots driven from the elbow. That is, moving forward with your weight back, combined with 0 tension in the shoulder or arm, from shifting on your heels without much body rotation, and from pulling with one and striking with the other, just to name a few examples that are alien to boxing.


You can actually find these elements used by high level boxers if you know where to look. The difference is that

these methods are not normally taught as basics, but are rather used by individual boxers as part of their personal style
these methods are not used in isolation, but are blended in with all the standard boxing tools as necessary
Learning WT actually helped me understand what certain boxers were doing that appeared to "break the rules" that I learned in boxing and why they were able to get away with doing so.

This subject reminds me of a post I've been meaning to make for a while, about how the technical differences between the personal styles of individual high-level boxers (including world champions) can sometimes be greater than the difference between two randomly selected styles of Karate or even between some related styles of CMA. Despite that, no one tries to claim that (for example) Mike Tyson and Mohammed Ali were practicing different martial arts. Maybe I'll get around to making that post later today.


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## Martial D (Apr 30, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You can actually find these elements used by high level boxers if you know where to look. The difference is that
> 
> these methods are not normally taught as basics, but are rather used by individual boxers as part of their personal style
> these methods are not used in isolation, but are blended in with all the standard boxing tools as necessary
> ...


I don't know of any boxers that stay off their lead leg when they throw coming forward. Not saying they don't exist, but I can't think of an example.


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## KPM (Apr 30, 2018)

Here is a good article by Paul Rackemann where he describes his version of Wing Chun Boxing.   Thanks to TMA17 for pointing it out!

Wing Chun Boxing – Total Submission of the Enemy - Rackemann Wing Chun


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## macher (Apr 30, 2018)

KPM said:


> Here is a good article by Paul Rackemann where he describes his version of Wing Chun Boxing.   Thanks to TMA17 for pointing it out!
> 
> Wing Chun Boxing – Total Submission of the Enemy - Rackemann Wing Chun



I’ve been practicing western boxing for the last couple of weeks. Want it to be my base martial art.


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## KPM (May 5, 2018)




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## KPM (May 5, 2018)




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## KPM (May 12, 2018)

I worked on some more Wing Chun Boxing lessons today!


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## KPM (May 19, 2018)

Here are some more San Sik set to video lesson for you all!  

This first one is a very important and "deep" set from Ku Lo Wing Chun.  It is one of the primary San Sik at level 3.







This one is related to the previous set and is the origin of "Cup Da Sau" from a prior lesson.






I consider this one a "minor" set from level 3 and don't use it much.  But is something not found in Ip Man Wing Chun and therefore not seen very often!


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## paitingman (Jun 9, 2018)

@KPM what do you think of using a style similar to George Foreman? Pawing extended arms at the front door. Swallowing, controlling, then smashing attacks in within that control. Of course, strength like Foreman would help haha. But could structure be used to replace that strength in WC Boxing? I know you've been working with a boxing engine, but was curious of your thoughts


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## KPM (Jun 9, 2018)

I made another set of lessons today.  Comments are welcome!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2018)

KPM said:


> I made another set of lessons today.  Comments are welcome!


I like your training tool. It's good to be used to train "stay in the same door", or "switch between doors". Did you design that yourself?

I also like your "single switching hand" training. I used to like the linear approach. But I like the circular approach better. IMO, the circular approach (used to stay in the same door) is faster than the linear approach (used to switch between doors).

No matter how fast that you can do with your linear approach, you have to strike out and then pull it back. But if you use the circular approach, it can be as simple as 3 small circles that flow out smoothly one after another.


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## lansao (Jun 10, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Drag step - front foot step in, back foot follow.
> 
> Do you think WC power generation coordinate punch with
> 
> ...



I find just before the lead foot lands maximizes my transfer. Also a rotation in air off that lead ball with my hip extending toward the opponent.


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## KPM (Jun 11, 2018)

paitingman said:


> @KPM what do you think of using a style similar to George Foreman? Pawing extended arms at the front door. Swallowing, controlling, then smashing attacks in within that control. Of course, strength like Foreman would help haha. But could structure be used to replace that strength in WC Boxing? I know you've been working with a boxing engine, but was curious of your thoughts



Foreman, like Archie Moore before him, made heavy use of the "cross arm defense"....holding his forearms up in front like a double Lan Sau as a shield.  Then sucking opponents in close like you noted. I do think this can work in WC Boxing with more structure than strength.  Against a stronger opponent, you can actually use the Lan Sau not only to create space, but to "bounce away" from the opponent if you are getting overwhelmed.   And the cross arm block flows easily into Skull & Crossbones or the Philly Shell.  It is definitely a viable structure to work from in close.


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## macher (Jun 12, 2018)

paitingman said:


> @KPM what do you think of using a style similar to George Foreman? Pawing extended arms at the front door. Swallowing, controlling, then smashing attacks in within that control. Of course, strength like Foreman would help haha. But could structure be used to replace that strength in WC Boxing? I know you've been working with a boxing engine, but was curious of your thoughts



Foreman used that pawing to push his opponent away and / or to create space. He did that against Frazier.


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## paitingman (Jun 12, 2018)

macher said:


> Foreman used that pawing to push his opponent away and / or to create space. He did that against Frazier.


That he did. I always liked his style. He would really smother the best boxers in the world and just blast em


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## macher (Jun 12, 2018)

paitingman said:


> That he did. I always liked his style.



Yep lots don’t give Foreman credit but he had skill not just a brawler. This guy breaks down Frazier Foreman well...


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## KPM (Jul 9, 2018)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1559366590779970


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## Poppity (Jul 11, 2018)

Hi KPM,

just saw this thread... are you combining modern boxing or older boxing?


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## KPM (Jul 11, 2018)

Snark said:


> Hi KPM,
> 
> just saw this thread... are you combining modern boxing or older boxing?



Modern boxing.   Although I did do a video series a few years back showing how similar the old school boxing was to Wing Chun and how they can go together.







But I think modern boxing and Wing Chun makes a more viable and better fighting method.


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