# TSD vs. TKD



## shane23ss (Dec 16, 2004)

How close is TSD to TKD? I have a very close friend who holds a Shodan in TSD and he doesn't really know, he has never trained in nor knows any TKD stylist. Am I comparing apples to oranges here?


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 16, 2004)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> How close is TSD to TKD? I have a very close friend who holds a Shodan in TSD and he doesn't really know, he has never trained in nor knows any TKD stylist. Am I comparing apples to oranges here?



Tough question. I don't know the answer. There are no TSD school's anywhere in my area. Only someone with background in both could tell us for sure. I think KarateKid1975 has done both for quite a while. Maybe if she is on then can enlighten us.


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## Disco (Dec 16, 2004)

Found this on another site.

What's the difference between TSD and TKD?
Not much. 
There are more differences from school to school than between the two styles. For example I have visited many TSD and TKD schools and I have found that in some cases my TSD school trained more similiar to a TKD school than by another TSD school. In general TKD has different forms than TSD-but I have been surprised to see my forms(although performed a little differently) at TKD and shoto kan schools. Also perhaps TKD tends to be a little more open to new ideas and flashy uniforms compared to TSD...


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## Galvatron (Dec 16, 2004)

It really depends on how the particular school trains their students. Sometimes the difference can be night and day, sometimes it can be so similar that you'd never know which style you were seeing, without seeing the sign on the door.


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## shane23ss (Dec 17, 2004)

Galvatron said:
			
		

> It really depends on how the particular school trains their students. Sometimes the difference can be night and day, sometimes it can be so similar that you'd never know which style you were seeing, without seeing the sign on the door.


I see that you hold rankings in TSD and TKD. Is there a particular reason for that, or just happened that way? Reason I ask is that the friend I was speaking of trained in Maryland and is now in TN. He nor I have seen any TSD schools in our area and he was wondering how easy the transition would be if he started training at a TKD Dojang. He and I spar from time to time and he is blown away at how different Kenpo is from his system. He would like to continue with his progression in the Korean system if possible. I was wondering for my own info would the TKD Dojang require him to wear a white belt to class or would they honor his BB? That probably varies from school to school, right? I once visited a TKD school a few years ago and they told me they would honor my Kenpo green belt and not make start at white. Didn't impress me none, so I left. My thoughts were "why would I wear a green belt in a TKD school"? I could see that if someone was going to a different Kenpo school, I could even see it if someone was going to a different Kenpo system, but not from Kenpo to TKD. Just to different. Thank you guys for your comments. Always appreciated.:asian:


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## Galvatron (Dec 17, 2004)

I started training in Tang Soo back in '87, when my dad opened a dojang. About two years ago I started training in WTF-Taekwondo with an old friend of my dad's, who has a TKD Dojang in my town. He honored my 3rd dan, and allows me to wear that rank in his school. Unfortunately the WTF would not allow my rank to transfer over, so when I applied for a Kukkiwon certificate of Dan, I had to apply for 1st Dan.
I would have to say that a TKD school would "probably" honor his black belt. If the school is WTF/USTU and is big on Kukkiwon registration for Dan ranks, then he might have to bump down to 1st Dan, but most will generally let you wear the rank you have. Again though, it depends on the instructor.
If your friend is from a staunchly "Traditional" Tang Soo Do school, the main difference he will encounter in a WTF school is more of a concentration on conditioning and speed. WTF Taekwondo is definitely (by my own experiences) more "Athletic" in nature.
Most of the terminology is the same though, so he won't have to relearn much of that.


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## TigerWoman (Dec 17, 2004)

My school is WTF and definitely more athletic. We do a lot of jumping, cardiovascular work as as well as alot of variety and repetition of kicks.  There's pushups, punching etc. too but the focus is on kicking.  TW


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanks Jeff for letting me know about this thread 

Anyways, I have done both (See my sig). I have only one year experience in TSD, but I can test for BB next fall in TKD, so I can give you some help.

It depends on the dojang/instructor. Both can be for sport or traditional. The TKD school I go to now, was a sport dojang. Lots of kicking and sparring for tourny style fighting. Now they do more traditional training (more self defense). My TSD dojang was very traditional. TSD reminds me of Shotokan (same forms, almost). Very "karate-like" (well, to me it seemed like that at my old dojang).

From my experience ..... The kicking in both are pretty much the same. The hand techniques are pretty much the same. The forms are different. Sparring rules are different (TSD point sparring, hand contact allowed to the head ... TKD Full contact, no hands allowed to the head). TSD takedowns, joint locks, ect. TKD rarely, except for upper ranks (again depending on the dojang/instructor/org). BUT my instructor teaches Chin Na, which isn't part of TKD, but it works  TSD also (to me anyways) is about 50% hands, 50% kicks. TKD is 70%, 30% (in my dojang anyways, but getting better  ).

Which brings me to my next subject. In either style, the instructor might add stuff from other styles. My TSD instructor added Hapkido, and Thai boxing. My TKD instructor also added a little thai boxing, plus Chin Na.

So what I'm getting at is it really depends on the instructors of either style. They can be way different, or they can be almost the same.

I hope this helps. I'm kind of rambling LOL.


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## Zepp (Dec 18, 2004)

Hiya Shane,

If you or your friend read up on the history of TSD and the old kwans of TKD, you'll find that both styles are really just two branches of the same dysfunctional family.  (There are several threads on history in this forum, and in the TKD section.)  From what I've seen of TSD, it can be very similar to some of the older styles of TKD.

As far as your friend's rank matriculating, like others have said, that'll depend on the instructor and school your friend attends.  I think you should encourage him to check out more than one TKD school in his area, as he just might find one where he'll feel right at home.  (But then again, maybe not.)


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## Miles (Dec 18, 2004)

I just asked a similar question in the Taekwondo area.  Both arts seek character development, but I would say that Taekwondo is very much a different art than Tang Soo Do.

I teach Taekwondo in a Tang Soo Do dojang.  My classes are very different than the other master in terms of material, curriculum, emphasis, and terminology.

Miles


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## Disco (Dec 18, 2004)

Miles, would you be so kind as to elaborate on the differences of material, curriculum, emphasis, and terminology.


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 18, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> I teach Taekwondo in a Tang Soo Do dojang.  My classes are very different than the other master in terms of material, curriculum, emphasis, and terminology.


How much could really be different? :idunno:


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## Miles (Dec 19, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Miles, would you be so kind as to elaborate on the differences of material, curriculum, emphasis, and terminology.


Sure, but it may be a pretty long post.

Material/Emphasis-There are differences in stances between the 2 arts with generally TSD stances being longer-there is a post somewhere in this area on this exact subject so I won't go any further.

TSD also utilizes more hand techniques than TKD. In sparring and hoshinsul, TKDin use different footwork in order to deliver attacks/counter-attacks. Indeed, because TKD uses continuous full contact sparring (whereas TSD does point), the counter-attack is stressed more in training.

TKD and TSD have different "set ups"-crossing the arms for closed-fist blocks and how "knifehand blocks" are set up-arms extended shoulder-level in TKD, whereas TSDin have their hands at belt-level.

TKD uses more snapping motion kicks whereas TSD uses more "thrusting" kicks.

Curriculum-in most TKD schools, sparring is introduced progressively: promise sparring (ie. no contact), then light-contact, and finally full contact. Since TSD sparring is point, it is light-contact with no progression.TSD allows head strikes in sparring, TKD does not.

Forms-there is an emphasis in TSD schools on forms which is not present in TKD. The forms are different-TSD uses the older pyung-ahn series, bassai, etc. whereas in TKD (Kukkiwon) forms are shorter, more symmetrical. I have also seen different TSD schools use the same forms at different rank levels. TKD has a standard-one form per rank with nearly universal applicability (i.e. Taeguek 8 for cho-dan)

Terminology-TSD uses the original terminology for its techniques-for example "ha dan/chung dan/sang dan makki" versus "arae/momtong/eugol makki" for TKD.

Please do not misconstrue my point.  I am not saying one is better than the other-they are just different.  Hope this helps!

Miles


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## NoSword (Dec 19, 2004)

I agree with everything said. It depends on the instructor you train under and the particular curriculum he/she uses. One example that comes to mind from my own background is the spin sidekick and reverse kick. The first Tae Kwon Do school I trained at taught us how to do a spin sidekick. When I switched from TKD to TSD we learned how to do a reverse kick. However when I had the opprotunity to train in TKD again with a different organization they also taught the reverse kick that I learned in TSD. Its interesting to see the similarities and differences on how the common techniques between the two styles are thrown and how they are used.


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## Disco (Dec 19, 2004)

Miles, thanks for the reply and the information. It was "Pro Bono" wasen't it?   :uhyeah:


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## Miles (Dec 20, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Miles, thanks for the reply and the information. It was "Pro Bono" wasen't it?  :uhyeah:


Absolutely!


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## MichiganTKD (Dec 21, 2004)

To elaborate on Miles' point:

The Tae Kwon Do as practiced in a traditional (i.e. Kwan-based) school can be very similar to Tang Soo Do, in terms of stances, execution of technique, kicking etc. Our Instructor taught Chung Do Kwan TKD, but WTF free fighting.  So many of our techniques apart from free fighting are similar to TSD:
Deeper stances as opposed to walking stances
Thrust kicks as opposed to snap kicks
Low block ending with a straight arm, as opposed to a bent arm, which I hate.
Original pronunciation of terms (chung dan/sang dan)
Emphasis on power as opposed to training for points.
Palgue forms, as opposed to Taegeuk forms, which I also dislike. To me, Taegeuk forms are just watered down newer forms that the WTF does as an excuse to say they have forms. I'll tale Palgue any day. And Palgue forms are still recognized by the WTF BTW.
The modern version of TKD has shifted away from all that in an effort to emphasize free fighting, losing much of what made original TKD so good. Nobody ever accused Tae Kwon Do of 40 years ago of being ineffective or watered down.


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## shane23ss (Dec 22, 2004)

Well, it seems like what I am hearing is that it really depends on the school/instructor. Obviously TSD is closer to TKD than Kenpo is to either of them, but sounds like they have their differences as well. Like I said, what Reggie was really trying to find out was if he could go to a TKD school a pick it up fairly easy since he has spent so much time in TSD and there are no schools around here. He should do like most of you said and check out many schools. Thanks for your comments. Keep em coming if you like for my own info.


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## Dr. Kenpo (Dec 22, 2004)

I had read that TSD was more "in close self defense" oriented that TKD. Is that true?

Thanks


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## TigerWoman (Dec 22, 2004)

Dr. Kenpo said:
			
		

> I had read that TSD was more "in close self defense" oriented that TKD. Is that true?



Our self-defense is arm length for the first 4 ranks and after that they are all in close.  Also the ones we don't test on are close range.   TW


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 23, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> Sure, but it may be a pretty long post.
> 
> Material/Emphasis-There are differences in stances between the 2 arts with generally TSD stances being longer-there is a post somewhere in this area on this exact subject so I won't go any further.
> 
> ...



The way you explained TSD is exactly the way my old TSD dojang was. I just couldn't explain it as well as you did  The way you explained TKD is the way my current dojang is, except for the Chin Na (not part of TKD). Thanks Miles


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 23, 2004)

_Our self-defense is arm length..._

What do you use for self-defense?  Our instructor teaches self-defense; it uses a lot of TKD moves (blocks and hand strikes as well as kicks) but is supplemented with some join manipulation and other stuff borrowed from hapkido and elsewhere.

I think we tend to blur the line between 'tkd' and 'self-defense' in that self-defense is just learning to use tkd techniques in certain situations and augmenting the techniques from other sources.  We do include kicks as well but focus more on close in techniques as they tend to be easier to keep at the proper level of the threat.

Anyway, I was just curious how you apply self-defense within TKD and from where it derives, etc...


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## Miles (Dec 24, 2004)

karatekid1975 said:
			
		

> The way you explained TSD is exactly the way my old TSD dojang was. I just couldn't explain it as well as you did  The way you explained TKD is the way my current dojang is, except for the Chin Na (not part of TKD). Thanks Miles


You are welcome Laurie. BTW, your school's chin na is likely what we call hoshinsul in my class (or hapkido in someone else's TKD class).  I love Dr. Yang's Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na-it is one of my favorite MA books!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Miles


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 27, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> You are welcome Laurie. BTW, your school's chin na is likely what we call hoshinsul in my class (or hapkido in someone else's TKD class).  I love Dr. Yang's Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na-it is one of my favorite MA books!
> 
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
> 
> Miles



We have that one as well. We get more help on what we learn in class from the book. Good stuff


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## Makalakumu (Dec 27, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> You are welcome Laurie. BTW, your school's chin na is likely what we call hoshinsul in my class (or hapkido in someone else's TKD class).  I love Dr. Yang's Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na-it is one of my favorite MA books!
> 
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
> 
> Miles



Mile, do you happen to train in Tae Kwon Do Moo Do Kwan?  The similarities between TSD MDK and TKD MDK are more numerous.


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## Miles (Dec 28, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Miles, do you happen to train in Tae Kwon Do Moo Do Kwan? The similarities between TSD MDK and TKD MDK are more numerous.


No, I though I have trained with a TKD master with MDK roots.

I practice, train, and teach Kukki-Taekwondo.

What are some of the similarities you mentioned?

Miles


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## Makalakumu (Dec 28, 2004)

Off of the top of my head, MDK schools typically call self defense _hosinshul_ instead of _Hapkido_, they have similar kicking regimines, they have similar forms, and their terminology is closer.  

Also, MDK schools tend to be less sport orientated and more traditional.  They focus more on the development of basics and things seem more formalized.

Just my observations...

upnorthkyosa


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## Miles (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Off of the top of my head, MDK schools typically call self defense _hosinshul_ instead of _Hapkido_, they have similar kicking regimines, they have similar forms, and their terminology is closer.
> 
> Also, MDK schools tend to be less sport orientated and more traditional. They focus more on the development of basics and things seem more formalized.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your observations. Much depends on the instructor (whether we are talking emphasis on sport/tradition/formality of classes/adherence to protocol, etc).  I think that applies pretty much to whether one is Taekwondoin or Tang Soo Doin.

Miles


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## MichiganTKD (Dec 31, 2004)

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to the Tae Kwon Do curriculum if (and probably when) TKD is removed from the Olympics. Remember, the curriculum for the past 30-odd years has been geared toward Olympic-style and away from traditional style, so that TKD would be seen as less lethal and more sportlike.
If TKD is removed from the Olympics, what is the sense of having a point-based routine? Other than the WTF World Championships, which noone outside the TKD world would know or care about, why train in Olympic style if TKD loses its Olympic status? Personally, I would favor a return to the traditional curriculum, and have sparring remain as a segment of the Art, but not the emphasis.


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## TigerWoman (Dec 31, 2004)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _Our self-defense is arm length..._
> 
> What do you use for self-defense?



The rest of that quote was ..".for the first four ranks"...which is white, yellow and orange, green.  We use ridge hand, head butt, palm strike, sidekick to knees, knee to groin, round for thigh charleyhorse among the techniques which are included in combinations for those ranks.  We also use joint locks, grappling etc for the upper ranks and also other technique which we are not tested on.  TW


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## bignick (Dec 31, 2004)

We also use the ha dan makki, etc for our terminology.  This is the first I've ever heard it used in taekwondo outside my school.  Most of the other schools I've seen use the other terminology that has been mentioned.  Does anyone know why they made the switch?


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## TigerWoman (Dec 31, 2004)

I don't think you can categorize all WTF schools the same.  We are WTF. Once we were more sport-oriented with it centered on sparring and forms ie. training for State and Nationals.  All the time though we still had forms, self-defense, one-steps, free-sparring, tradition and etiquette.  Now we are more traditional but do point sparring only at tournaments.

Our forms only have walking stances up to Taeguek 3.  Most of the stances are long and deep.  How deep? As long and deep and you can go in any other art. We physically train for it. TW


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## Miles (Jan 1, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> We also use the ha dan makki, etc for our terminology.  This is the first I've ever heard it used in taekwondo outside my school.  Most of the other schools I've seen use the other terminology that has been mentioned.  Does anyone know why they made the switch?



The Kukkiwon has been trying to standardize terminology since approximately 1995.  I learned the older terminology in an ITF-style program from the mid-70s.  These terms are still used by the TSD school in which I teach.

Miles


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