# Southern Tiger style



## Midnight-shadow (May 29, 2016)

I currently train in Fujian White Crane but we also do a bit of Tiger and Mantis alongside it. I'm learning the basic White Crane and Southern Mantis forms but there doesn't seem to be a corresponding Tiger form that I can find. Is there a specific southern Tiger style or is it just a branch of Hung Gar?


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2016)

What does your sifu tell you about it?


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2016)

double post


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## Midnight-shadow (May 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> What does your sifu tell you about it?



Not alot to be honest. He just calls it Tiger, but I'll try and ask him more about it next chance I get.


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## Flying Crane (May 29, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Not alot to be honest. He just calls it Tiger, but I'll try and ask him more about it next chance I get.


Is he teaching any of the forms, or just the fundamentals?  I guess I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say you can't find a corresponding form.  I would think your sifu would be teaching that and would know the material?


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## JowGaWolf (May 29, 2016)

I'm confused all together.  A form doesn't specifically have to be called Tiger in order to have tiger fighting techniques in it.   I have one form called Small Tiger and another form called Flower Fist, but both have tiger in it.


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## Xue Sheng (May 29, 2016)

Are  we talking Fu jow pai or Hei hu quan or a posture within a form that is called tiger.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 29, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Are  we talking Fu jow pai or Hei hu quan or a posture within a form that is called tiger.


I know nothing regarding Hei hu quan, but I am guessing that it is not Fu Jow Pai (at least Master Tak's Fu Jow Pai), as that is meant to be a continuation of Hung Gar, rather than white crane or southern mantis. IIRC, while it is a 'branch'/continuation of Hung Gar, he does not teach Fu Jow Pai unless the person already has experience with Hung Gar, and he teaches his students to do the same. I would assume that by the point that you learn Hung Gar, you would be familiar enough that you wouldn't have to come on here asking about tiger forms.

Of course, if there is Fu Jow Pai not lead by Master Tak that I don't know about, the above paragraph is irrelevent.


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2016)

Yeah the OP needs to clarify what's going on.  I read it as they are training three different systems together, Fujian crane, southern mantis, and tiger.  If I'm reading that correctly, then his sifu ought to know the systems including their respective forms and he shouldn't need to come to a forum with a question like this.  So I am confused.


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## clfsean (May 30, 2016)

Meh ... I think it's overblown. I've seen sets from YongChun Village & their White Crane. They have sets with Tiger & Praying Mantis. Its not uncommon, especially in Southern TCMAs, to have mixed naming. I can't think of how many sets I have named Lohan. I have 2 different 5 Animal & 10 Animal sets from Lama Pai & CLF. But they're not even close to resembling the others. I have two separate stick/spear sets already with 5th Brother in the name but bears zero resemblance to Hung Ga's famous set.


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## Midnight-shadow (May 31, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies everyone, and don't worry, I'm just as confused as you. In our training we do the basic Tiger moves like the basic blocks and strikes, but not a form specifically for Tiger like we have for Mantis or Crane. I've tried looking for forms that incorporate the moves we do but can't really find anything. My instructor (he doesn't like being called Sifu) says we do a Tiger-crane combination which is why we have Tiger elements in our style, but I was wondering if there is another specific Southern Tiger style as well. In my research the only thing I've found that comes close to a Southern Tiger style is Bak Fu Pai (White Tiger style). Are there others besides this and the subsets of Hung Gar?


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## DaveB (May 31, 2016)

Tiger-crane combination is a different but related style to Fujian White Crane

I'm guessing you are in Dennis Ngo's group in London? They use the name FWC for their group but it is a political thing. Check out the Nam Yang group website and
Paul Watts for more on actual White Crane.

As for the source tiger style I never found out any specifics.


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## Midnight-shadow (May 31, 2016)

DaveB said:


> Tiger-crane combination is a different but related style to Fujian White Crane
> 
> I'm guessing you are in Dennis Ngo's group in London? They use the name FWC for their group but it is a political thing. Check out the Nam Yang group website and
> Paul Watts for more on actual White Crane.
> ...



My Instructor trained with Dennis Ngo for 20 years, but I haven't personally trained under Dennis myself.


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## DaveB (May 31, 2016)

Well if you find anything about the root tiger style that makes up Tiger Crane combination let me know. I never found it.

The Nam Yang folks might know, but there's a history of animosity between the two groups so tread lightly.


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2016)

clfsean said:


> Meh ... I think it's overblown. I've seen sets from YongChun Village & their White Crane. They have sets with Tiger & Praying Mantis. Its not uncommon, especially in Southern TCMAs, to have mixed naming. I can't think of how many sets I have named Lohan. I have 2 different 5 Animal & 10 Animal sets from Lama Pai & CLF. But they're not even close to resembling the others. I have two separate stick/spear sets already with 5th Brother in the name but bears zero resemblance to Hung Ga's famous set.



I was waiting for your post on this, I know nothing of Hung Ga and you know volumes, albeit in that droning vowel devil tongue , but just the same, IMHO, you are the Hung Ga go to guy.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 1, 2016)

DaveB said:


> Well if you find anything about the root tiger style that makes up Tiger Crane combination let me know. I never found it.
> 
> The Nam Yang folks might know, but there's a history of animosity between the two groups so tread lightly.



Looking more into the White Tiger, and the forms are very similar to what I do:






Could this be the root tiger style we are looking for?


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 1, 2016)

So, for those who are interested in the history, this is what my instructor told me. The style I practice (Fujian White Crane) originated from the Tiger Crane combination. This style was past down from Grandmaster Ang to Dennis Ngo, but then at some point Ngo split from the Nam Yang group and set up his own school and organisation. He wanted to come up with a new name and so traveled to China, to YongChun village. They already had a YongChun White Crane style however, so he settled with Fujian White Crane instead. In terms of the style, and the tiger elements, they are incorporated into the white crane forms that differentiate it from the shaolin white crane forms. We also do have a pure Tiger form called "Tiger leaves its den" but it is very advanced which is why I haven't come across it yet.

As for the Southern Mantis, that is just a little bit extra on the side, for variety and to show the similarities between it and the crane techniques. We only do the most basic Mantis form, and otherwise focus on the tiger crane combination.

So, to answer the question on where it all originated, apparently it came from Hung Ee Kan, one of the 5 Masters who escaped the burning of the Shaolin Temple in the 17th Century. While in exile he joined an Opera group and in doing so encountered the Tee family, who used the Crane style. Hung Ee Kan was enchanted with the style and fell in love with the daughter of the family, Tee Eng Choon. They married and together developed the Tiger Crane combination. Hung Ee Kan was apparently also responsible for the development of Hung Gar, so they are all connected.


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## DaveB (Jun 1, 2016)

That's different from the story I learned, but I know that the school has some researchers who may have updated the details. 

Many of the southern styles have a similar look and feel. I think until you see the advanced tiger form it will be hard to have any clue.

I always thought that the southern combination styles were based on the essential elements of the older northern shaolin stuff, but that's just an idea I had, not based on anything.


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## DaveB (Jun 1, 2016)

History - NamYang Pugilistic Association

According to these guys the Tiger style was called Tai Chor. 






Nam Yang have also changed their origin story since I last looked (years ago).


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2016)

DaveB said:


> History - NamYang Pugilistic Association
> 
> According to these guys the Tiger style was called Tai Chor.
> 
> ...


That's very karate looking. (referring to the movement and energy of it)


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## DaveB (Jun 2, 2016)

Karate is just what happened when the Okinawans we're taught southern kung-fu.

Varying degrees of blending with the indigenous "Te" happened as well as some merging with the Jigen ryu of the Satsuma samurai and karate is its own art.

As for Tiger-crane,  the form he showed had many elements of the first three patterns.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2016)

DaveB said:


> That's different from the story I learned, but I know that the school has some researchers who may have updated the details.
> 
> Many of the southern styles have a similar look and feel. I think until you see the advanced tiger form it will be hard to have any clue.
> 
> I always thought that the southern combination styles were based on the essential elements of the older northern shaolin stuff, but that's just an idea I had, not based on anything.



What was the story you learned? I'm curious.


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## DaveB (Jun 2, 2016)

FWC used to give the White Crane origin: young girl learned monk fist from dad, dad is killed, girl sees a crane fighting a tiger and copies elements.... Etc.
Nam Yang used to say that Tiger-crane was the last and most advanced style developed at the Shaolin temple.
I could be mistaken as it was . Long time ago that I looked into these things. 
What do you think of the Tai Chor? I'm a bit confused as the videos all call it Grand Ancestor fist, no mention of tigers. More research is needed.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2016)

DaveB said:


> FWC used to give the White Crane origin: young girl learned monk fist from dad, dad is killed, girl sees a crane fighting a tiger and copies elements.... Etc.
> Nam Yang used to say that Tiger-crane was the last and most advanced style developed at the Shaolin temple.
> I could be mistaken as it was . Long time ago that I looked into these things.
> What do you think of the Tai Chor? I'm a bit confused as the videos all call it Grand Ancestor fist, no mention of tigers. More research is needed.



Yes, I had heard that tale too for the origin of white crane. There is a similar story of how northern shaolin crane was conceived, which basically goes that a young shaolin monk had finished his training but couldn't start his journey years because he was too timid in battle. He would lose against novices purely because he didn't have to will to hit back. His teacher didn't want to send him off like that so instead had him meditate in the mountains each day to try and discover how he could fight. While meditating he witnessed a tiger attacking a flock of crane, and one crane stood up to the tiger, dodging around it until the tiger became exhausted and gave up. After seeing this, they young monk and his teacher developed the crane style. 

As for Tai Chor, I'd never heard of it before it was brought up in this thread. Looking into it more it apparently is the original shaolin tiger style, but again we are talking northern shaolin here, so the origin of southern tiger (if there is such a thing) is still unknown. 

The Origins of Shaolin Kung Fu


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## DaveB (Jun 3, 2016)

Tai Chor is distinctively southern kung-fu. The southern styles are supposed to be descended from the northern ones as northern shaolin was first.
The problem I have is that it is only Tiger-crane websites that refer to Tai Chor as tiger style. Tai Chor people say it is Grand Ancestor fist. I might have heard that there is some correlation between the 5 animals of shaolin and the other 5 ancestors of Shaolin but I am unsure


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2016)

DaveB said:


> Tai Chor is distinctively southern kung-fu. The southern styles are supposed to be descended from the northern ones as northern shaolin was first.
> The problem I have is that it is only Tiger-crane websites that refer to Tai Chor as tiger style. Tai Chor people say it is Grand Ancestor fist. I might have heard that there is some correlation between the 5 animals of shaolin and the other 5 ancestors of Shaolin but I am unsure


Well, northern shaolin wasn't first in any real sense.  Different methods were practiced all over ancient China before, during, and after the development of methods at shaolin.  There was a lot of borrowing and influencing from one to the next, but it's far from a clean "this, to that, to the next" kind of history.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, northern shaolin wasn't first in any real sense.  Different methods were practiced all over ancient China before, during, and after the development of methods at shaolin.  There was a lot of borrowing and influencing from one to the next, but it's far from a clean "this, to that, to the next" kind of history.



Yup, Shuaijiao, Xingyiquan, Tongbei, Changquan, all northern and not from Shaolin


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## DaveB (Jun 4, 2016)

I was more trying to convey the point about the fujianese styles whose legends tend to trace from northern shaolin origins.

So when midnight shadow speaks of a southern tiger style I don't think he's right to look for one that is not tied historically to northern shaolin because as far as I can tell all the arts of that region seem to trace back north at least by association to the mythical southern temple.

In other words I think the best you're going to get is the official website of the Tiger-Crane school telling you that Tai Chor is the Tiger style they are based on.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 4, 2016)

DaveB said:


> I was more trying to convey the point about the fujianese styles whose legends tend to trace from northern shaolin origins.
> 
> So when midnight shadow speaks of a southern tiger style I don't think he's right to look for one that is not tied historically to northern shaolin because as far as I can tell all the arts of that region seem to trace back north at least by association to the mythical southern temple.
> 
> In other words I think the best you're going to get is the official website of the Tiger-Crane school telling you that Tai Chor is the Tiger style they are based on.



That is what is so interesting about southern crane vs northern crane, they each have their own legend on how they were created. I haven't been able to find any kind of legend for the other animal systems, with the exception of northern shaolin tiger (Tai Chor) and shaolin monkey. Lohan was the first style created by the shaolin monks, then Tai Chor (which beat Lohan), then Monkey, which beat Tai Chor and finally Crane, which beat Monkey. I can't find any stories related to the other styles. Then in the south all you have is the legend of white crane, and white tiger, but no others.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 4, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> That is what is so interesting about southern crane vs northern crane, they each have their own legend on how they were created. I haven't been able to find any kind of legend for the other animal systems, with the exception of northern shaolin tiger (Tai Chor) and shaolin monkey. Lohan was the first style created by the shaolin monks, then Tai Chor (which beat Lohan), then Monkey, which beat Tai Chor and finally Crane, which beat Monkey. I can't find any stories related to the other styles. Then in the south all you have is the legend of white crane, and white tiger, but no others.


Well, there is also Tibetan crane which is different, with its own traditions.  I suspect there could be numerous regional methods of any of these, that are separate from the others and are simply not well known outside of their local region.

Also, regarding shaolin, I don't know that you can say Lohan was first, followed by these others that "beat" the predecessor.  I suspect those stories were made up later to reinforce how "superior" each of these methods were in the eyes of their later practitioners.  There was just a lot of stuff that either ended up being done there, or became somehow associated with shaolin thru legends that may or may not have some truth to them.  A lot of it originated elsewhere and was brought to shaolin later.  This stuff wasn't all created there.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 4, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, there is also Tibetan crane which is different, with its own traditions.  I suspect there could be numerous regional methods of any of these, that are separate from the others and are simply not well known outside of their local region.
> 
> Also, regarding shaolin, I don't know that you can say Lohan was first, followed by these others that "beat" the predecessor.  I suspect those stories were made up later to reinforce how "superior" each of these methods were in the eyes of their later practitioners.  There was just a lot of stuff that either ended up being done there, or became somehow associated with shaolin thru legends that may or may not have some truth to them.  A lot of it originated elsewhere and was brought to shaolin later.  This stuff wasn't all created there.



That was just something I read when looking into the origin of Tai Chor. As with all these stories, it's impossible to know truth from fable as (especially for the southern styles) there is no written accounts, only oral tradition to go by.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 9, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's very karate looking. (referring to the movement and energy of it)


I can't tell it apart from Ngo Cho Kun, it looks exactly the same.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 9, 2016)

DaveB said:


> FWC used to give the White Crane origin: young girl learned monk fist from dad, dad is killed, girl sees a crane fighting a tiger and copies elements.... Etc.
> Nam Yang used to say that Tiger-crane was the last and most advanced style developed at the Shaolin temple.
> I could be mistaken as it was . Long time ago that I looked into these things.
> What do you think of the Tai Chor? I'm a bit confused as the videos all call it Grand Ancestor fist, no mention of tigers. More research is needed.


Fairly certain that was 5 Ancestor Fist. Tai Cho is one of the 5 arts That make up Ngo Cho Kun (5 Ancestors Fist). The other 4 being White Crane, Monkey, Lohan & Tamo. Nam Yang, regardless of their origin story is actually a branch of Ngo Cho Kun, same forms etc.


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