# Muslim Fantatic Has Children Ready To Die



## MA-Caver (Jul 9, 2007)

> *Red Mosque hostage kids tell parents: We are martyrs
> Cleric: 'The boys are the 1st line of defense, then the girls ... they will fight to the death'* Posted: July 8, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern
> http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56563
> © 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
> ...


I can't believe what I'm reading here. That this guy has succeeded in getting school-children willing to die for (his) cause is monstrous. So many of them and 30 (probably more) are dead, buried in a mass grave. 
The kids seem all willing participants as evident by the reaction of two girls who were "tricked" outside the compound by their father and they're angry with him for getting them out. 


> Khan, the desperate father and shopkeeper, succeeded Friday in getting his two daughters to leave the compound with a ruse.
> Reaching them once again by cell phone, he told them their mother was ill and lay unconscious on the pavement outside. The two girls left the compound and were taken by their father.
> Saima, Khan's 10-year-old daughter, denounced the trick.
> "The teachers taught us about martyrdom and that it is a great achievement," she told the Times. "I could see the fighting was in front of me and I could understand that we would die. I felt real anger about what my father did. He tricked me."
> According to Khan, Saima's transformation had taken only eight weeks.


In 8 weeks this guy has brainwashed the children. 
Something terrible is going to happen, it's not likely that this will end peacefully.


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## Kacey (Jul 9, 2007)

It _is_ monstrous - but sadly, in the circumstances given, I could see the kids following him more easily than adults... think Hitler Youth, as an example.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 9, 2007)

Yes well, eventually they'll have to storm the compound. Therein lies the problem because if he does have the children armed and willing to fight how will it be for the soldiers who go in to be shooting children (in defense)? 
Only thing that is a plus is that they're out of food and water and thus children are more easily weakened by hunger and thirst and thus will be unable to raise their weapons to "fight back." It's the adults however that may do something horribly drastic like blowing up large groups of the children to claim martyrdom for them. 
That 30 (or more) have died says that they must've been killed resisting or not cooperating or not complying with the brainwashing this monster has obviously done. It is likely that hundreds more will die but hopefully not of course. 

What of the survivors of such a raid? Some may be able to have their brainwashing reversed but others may not. The two girls that were taken show this as a scary possibility. These kids may grow up to be future terrorists. While Kacey's comparison of Hitler Youth is very close or even spot on, history has shown that many of them reneged on their training/teachings and lived out the post war years in peace. It is hoped that the same will be for these kids. 

Al-Qaida supporters and other terrorists must be jumping with glee at this. However it turns out it will be a victory for them in propaganda, if it isn't already.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 10, 2007)

Update:





> *Pakistan's Red Mosque leader killed  	*
> Pakistani security forces have killed Abdul Rashid Ghazi, the besieged leader of Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, in Islamabad in a day-long assault on the complex, the interior ministry said.
> Other reports said Ghazi was killed by followers when he tried to surrender.
> There was no way of independently verifying the claims.
> ...


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 10, 2007)

I have often wondered about these 'great leaders' who encourage their followers with the greatness and holiness of matyrdom but do not, themselves, attempt to attain this sanctified state.  The conclusion I have come to is that they are cowards, and here we may have the greatest and most transparent coward of the lot.  He is hiding behind children!

The saddest thing is that these brainwashed children are not being martyred.  They are not dying for their convictions and firmly held beliefs.  They are dying for someone elses cowardice.  They are being robbed of the opportunity to really know what their beliefs are through brainwashing and coercion.

Ther is no place in Paradise for a man who would do this sort of thing, no matter how hard he tries to convince himself.


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## michaeledward (Jul 11, 2007)

Thirty years ago, give or take, I was visiting my Grandfather and Grand mother in Marshfield, Mass. A younger child from down the street approached me and asked me if had "heard the Good News of Jesus". I was raised in a Catholic family. But, I had never heard the story of Jesus told in that manner. 

I would tell you that the young boy in question, as I recall, was eager for the afterlife. 

Later in my life, when I was playing music in an evangelical group, and travelling to youth groups in my area, I recall one particular youth session where one of my peers asked about the promised second coming of Jesus. This young lady was concerned that Jesus might return, and the rapture might happen before she had the chance to grow up and be a person, have a family. 

She was perhaps, eager for the afterlife, but not so eager. 


I think we can find the type and passion of believe you describe in Pakistan in religons and religous youth groups all over the world. I think we need to be careful when judging externally the beliefs of others. 

Steel Tiger, your language indicates a lack of respect for Sharia Law which proves the point many muslem's make, that the West wants to convert them, and have no respect for their religion. 

I think you wording is especially poignant, when the Pope yesterday decreed that the Protestant and Orthodox Christian faiths were fractured, and had no hope for paradise, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves.


I have recently been reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. And he proposes that raising a young person in a faith is the same as child abuse. I won't go that far, but I believe he makes a strong argument. 


As I posted elsewhere, the assault that began about 36 hours ago, originally reported about 50 people dying in the initial siege. Sadly, it seems that perhaps three times that number are reported dead now. Hopefully, there will be no more deaths.


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## Mr. E (Jul 11, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I think we need to be careful when judging externally the beliefs of others.
> 
> Steel Tiger, your language indicates a lack of respect for Sharia Law which proves the point many muslem's make, that the West wants to convert them, and have no respect for their religion.



It seems siimple to me. If they encourage their children to die as human shields, then they are scum. It is not a religion, it is a cult. Period. End of message. Full stop.

And I could not see anything in Steel Tiger's post to indicate that he has a lack of respect for any part of Islam, just the actions of certain people that use religion and twist it for their own ends.

Thankfully, it looks like they have found no bodies of women or children so far. A few bodies are burned pretty bad, but it looks like the only ones who died were adults males who wanted to be there. As far as I am concerned, anyone who had any part in keeping kids from leaving a scene like that needs to be taken out.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 11, 2007)

That is a very sad story and I hope that the outcome is not to horrible!


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 11, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I think we can find the type and passion of believe you describe in Pakistan in religons and religous youth groups all over the world. I think we need to be careful when judging externally the beliefs of others.
> 
> Steel Tiger, your language indicates a lack of respect for Sharia Law which proves the point many muslem's make, that the West wants to convert them, and have no respect for their religion.


 
I will admit I am no fan of Sharia as I have seen it implemented.  I think there is a problem with presenting as the way for the world a system that is not codified but inferred which means it can be interpreted to suit one group over another.  Not that that is the sole province of Islam by any means.



michaeledward said:


> I think you wording is especially poignant, when the Pope yesterday decreed that the Protestant and Orthodox Christian faiths were fractured, and had no hope for paradise, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves.


 
Can't help but agree with the Pontif on this one.  If anything, Christianity is more fractured and messed up than Islam was or ever will be.  That may be the reason the West fears Islam so much, as a religion it is more unified than its slightly older brother.  Monotheistic, proselytising religions like Christianity and Islam cannot get along because they are too much alike.




michaeledward said:


> I have recently been reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. And he proposes that raising a young person in a faith is the same as child abuse. I won't go that far, but I believe he makes a strong argument.


 
I, like you, would not go so far as to say it is child abuse, but there is apoint at which you must allow children to make their own realisations about their religion and their faith.  Encouraging them to 'die for the cause' before they have developed their own understanding of the cause is unfair and irresponsible in a religious leader and teacher, no matter what faith.




michaeledward said:


> As I posted elsewhere, the assault that began about 36 hours ago, originally reported about 50 people dying in the initial siege. Sadly, it seems that perhaps three times that number are reported dead now. Hopefully, there will be no more deaths.


 
I was very glad to hear that there seem to have been a lot less children involved than initially reported.  It is sad that so many have died.  it is sadder still when one hears that it may have been prevented at all if the Pakistani government had been more attentive some six months ago.  We never seem to learn until it is too late.


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