# What martial art is best for a beginner, petite female working in a risky industry?



## Whispered_Freedom

I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.

I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.

But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers


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## JR 137

If it’s not difficult and demanding, it’s not going to be effective. There’s no substitute for hard work. Anyone who tells you you don’t need to work hard and be challenged is either selling you a load of BS just to get in the door or is dillusional. 

A good teacher will make it challenging while not making it overwhelming for a beginner. A good teacher will make very difficult things easier to learn. But you have to put the work in. No other way around it. Forget easy. Forget too hard too though. Find a school that you can afford, doesn’t conflict too much with your schedule, has a teacher you want to learn from, and has training partners you want to work out with. Keep showing up, and everything will work itself out.


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## lklawson

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.


I'm going to recommend Judo or Brazilian Ju Jitsu.  A bit of boxing would be good too.  There are several others which might fit your bill but can be varying levels of difficult to find.  Judo, Boxing, and BJJ are dirt common.



> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers


Few things in the arts I've recommended are hard to understand but they all take work to learn to do right.  How hard did you have to work to learn how to read, drive a car, or, frankly, any other skill?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## spidersam

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.
> 
> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers



I think you should ask yourself why you want to take a martial art—your goal. Is this for fun or strictly self defense? Krav Maga is good for modern defense. Do you want to kick more? Punch more? Grapple?

Also don’t limit your options on being female. There’s women in every martial art that I know of, and that doesn’t stop them. You never know what you’re capable of until your try!


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## ShortBridge

It would help to know more about your risky industry and/or some thoughts about scenarios in which you feel you might need to defend yourself physically. I'm not being coy, this is what I ask people when they contact me about self-defense and it's a question that I force my students to revisit frequently

Personal safety is usually about tiers of awareness, avoidance, and resolution. Most any martial art is going to focus on resolution. If you boil down all of the skills and tricks and techniques in any style, you basically have tools. If you go to Home Depot and ask what tool you should buy, they're going to ask you a lot of questions about what project you're planning.

Are you in unsafe areas alone and worried about street criminals? Do you work stadium security? Are you employed in law enforcement? Does your restrict your options? Can you use force? Can you carry weapons? Are you obligated to restrain bad actors or is your goal escape?


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## Martial D

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.
> 
> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers


Realistically, and I know this might not be a popular opinion here, but for a smaller woman only BJJ will give you a real chance against someone both bigger and stronger than you.


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## Deleted member 39746

Define risky industry.     
Edit:   Just read somone ask the question now i need to flesh this out.

Without the specifics, generic fitness building helps in all situations and i would avoid Aikido as i don't think it has the reputation for being good at self defence.       I would go with kickboxing above normal boxing though, that's just me in viewing learning to use your legs effectively as better than just hands.   You can then at least if its more fitness based get used to moving around and punching and kicking etc.


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## JR 137

Martial D said:


> Realistically, and I know this might not be a popular opinion here, but for a smaller woman only BJJ will give you a real chance against someone both bigger and stronger than you.


Judo will too. All about leverage and body position and mechanics to throw your opponent. Hit him with the planet and then choke him out or dislocated a joint or two.


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## Whispered_Freedom

JR 137 said:


> If it’s not difficult and demanding, it’s not going to be effective. There’s no substitute for hard work. Anyone who tells you you don’t need to work hard and be challenged is either selling you a load of BS just to get in the door or is dillusional.
> 
> A good teacher will make it challenging while not making it overwhelming for a beginner. A good teacher will make very difficult things easier to learn. But you have to put the work in. No other way around it. Forget easy. Forget too hard too though. Find a school that you can afford, doesn’t conflict too much with your schedule, has a teacher you want to learn from, and has training partners you want to work out with. Keep showing up, and everything will work itself out.


I just mean, it's not always about working harder but working smarter.


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## Whispered_Freedom

spidersam said:


> I think you should ask yourself why you want to take a martial art—your goal. Is this for fun or strictly self defense? Krav Maga is good for modern defense. Do you want to kick more? Punch more? Grapple?
> 
> Also don’t limit your options on being female. There’s women in every martial art that I know of, and that doesn’t stop them. You never know what you’re capable of until your try!


Self defence and gaining a variety of practical, fighting skills. I like the idea of kicking but definitely know I need to work on my punching skills


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## Whispered_Freedom

ShortBridge said:


> It would help to know more about your risky industry and/or some thoughts about scenarios in which you feel you might need to defend yourself physically. I'm not being coy, this is what I ask people when they contact me about self-defense and it's a question that I force my students to revisit frequently
> 
> Personal safety is usually about tiers of awareness, avoidance, and resolution. Most any martial art is going to focus on resolution. If you boil down all of the skills and tricks and techniques in any style, you basically have tools. If you go to Home Depot and ask what tool you should buy, they're going to ask you a lot of questions about what project you're planning.
> 
> Are you in unsafe areas alone and worried about street criminals? Do you work stadium security? Are you employed in law enforcement? Does your restrict your options? Can you use force? Can you carry weapons? Are you obligated to restrain bad actors or is your goal escape?


Hi. In the security industry and planning on joining either the police force or corrections industry. So being able to manage individuals and groups if need be.


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## Whispered_Freedom

Martial D said:


> Realistically, and I know this might not be a popular opinion here, but for a smaller woman only BJJ will give you a real chance against someone both bigger and stronger than you.


That's a realistic opinion though. Thanks.


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## JR 137

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I just mean, it's not always about working harder but working smarter.


It’s about working harder and smarter. Too many people want to believe working “smarter” means they don’t have to put the work in. Too many people think knowing how to do something is enough to make it work. Not when you’ve got someone going at you full strength and speed. And if someone is going to attack you, they’re going to be stronger and faster than you. People like weaker targets, just ask Charles Darwin. 

I’m not saying you’re what I’m describing. I’ve never met you and most likely never will. I’m just stating what I’ve seen.


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## Tez3

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Hi. In the security industry and planning on joining either the police force or corrections industry. So being able to manage individuals and groups if need be.




If you go into the police or prison service you will be taught what is effective for that job. they have a certain way of working that they will want you to stick to.

I have to say I've seen quite a few NZ police programmes (professional interest) as well as some in the prisons, they look like good jobs. Your police are much the same as ours using humour and banter rather than guns! The roads seem scary though!


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## Buka

Welcome to MT, WhisperedFreedom. Hope you enjoy it.


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## Whispered_Freedom

JR 137 said:


> It’s about working harder and smarter. Too many people want to believe working “smarter” means they don’t have to put the work in. Too many people think knowing how to do something is enough to make it work. Not when you’ve got someone going at you full strength and speed. And if someone is going to attack you, they’re going to be stronger and faster than you. People like weaker targets, just ask Charles Darwin.
> 
> I’m not saying you’re what I’m describing. I’ve never met you and most likely never will. I’m just stating what I’ve seen.


I've always believed working smarter means doing what you can without feeling drained or using more energy than required. So yes, of course I agree, working smart is by no means expecting easy. Although I'm aware some martial arts are easier than others


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## Whispered_Freedom

Tez3 said:


> If you go into the police or prison service you will be taught what is effective for that job. they have a certain way of working that they will want you to stick to.
> 
> I have to say I've seen quite a few NZ police programmes (professional interest) as well as some in the prisons, they look like good jobs. Your police are much the same as ours using humour and banter rather than guns! The roads seem scary though!


Yeah, de-escalating a situation/person rather than provoking or intimidating.


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## Whispered_Freedom

Buka said:


> Welcome to MT, WhisperedFreedom. Hope you enjoy it.


Thank you so much


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## spidersam

Martial D said:


> Realistically, and I know this might not be a popular opinion here, but for a smaller woman only BJJ will give you a real chance against someone both bigger and stronger than you.



Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.


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## dvcochran

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Yeah, de-escalating a situation/person rather than provoking or intimidating.


@spidersam and others have made some very good points. Being in law enforcement is so much more than knowing how to protect yourself. Actually, by the creed that is second on the list. "To protect and serve" is still on the side of many patrol cars. I would encourage you to learn how to protect yourself mentally as much or more than being super physically adept. Learning how to manipulate a person when they are really pissed off is an acquired skill. It takes time to learn and certainly some are better than others. I cannot speak to what is the norm in New Zealand but in the U.S. for officers who are killed or injured in the line of work, the large majority of them made a mental error or took someone too lightly. Assistance and backup are much more available, even in the smaller towns like where I am from. Again, calling or waiting for backup falls under the prudence/common sense category.
Welocome to the forum @Whispered_Freedom. I hope you find a good program. You are headed down a tough road. Thank you.


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## ShortBridge

We have some professional LEO here and I would defer to them, generally. 

But, in most places, police departments have limits on this type of force. Videos of police punching citizens in the face with a fist don't go over very well with the public and chokes are not legal for police in many places. BJJ fans may say "well, they just don't do them right", but if they're not allowed by your perspective employers, I would focus on things that are. 

Judo or Japanese JuJitsu might not be bad starts for you. I've trained several people in similar professions, but I'm not sure whether or not I would recommend Wing Chun broadly for police. Krav Maga comes to mind for me. I think it depends on how it's taught near you. Systema might be worth checking out if it's a local option for you. 

To control a group or individual having the dual tools of confidence/authority and humor/humanity will a long way, but that's a tougher journey if it's not natural to you. I might seriously recommend taking an Improv comedy workshop if that's an option for you. The skills translate well to conflict resolution. 

And get in shape! You don't have to be big, but get comfortable with yourself and condition for stress. 

And...listen to people who have the jobs that you want...which is not me.


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## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> We have some professional LEO here and I would defer to them, generally.
> 
> But, in most places, police departments have limits on this type of force. Videos of police punching citizens in the face with a fist don't go over very well with the public and chokes are not legal for police in many places. BJJ fans may say "well, they just don't do them right", but if they're not allowed by your perspective employers, I would focus on things that are.
> 
> Judo or Japanese JuJitsu might not be bad starts for you. I've trained several people in similar professions, but I'm not sure whether or not I would recommend Wing Chun broadly for police. Krav Maga comes to mind for me. I think it depends on how it's taught near you. Systema might be worth checking out if it's a local option for you.
> 
> To control a group or individual having the dual tools of confidence/authority and humor/humanity will a long way, but that's a tougher journey if it's not natural to you. I might seriously recommend taking an Improv comedy workshop if that's an option for you. The skills translate well to conflict resolution.
> 
> And get in shape! You don't have to be big, but get comfortable with yourself and condition for stress.
> 
> And...listen to people who have the jobs that you want...which is not me.


A friend who teaches DT at the local police academy told me he finds wrestlers and boxers typically do quite well in training. He said beyond physical skills, they typically have the right “never give up” mental toughness mindset which he thinks is one of the biggest determining factors. 

For what it’s worth.


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## Headhunter

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I just mean, it's not always about working harder but working smarter.


If you want to get good you have to work hard or you may as well stay home


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## Headhunter

Any style....most people will come on here and say their own style but any style can work for anyone. Just choose and turn up


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## drop bear

spidersam said:


> Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.



Gravity is a superpower. So if I sit on you I have more control of the fight. 

So for example I could just punch you and you would pretty much have to sit there and take it.


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## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> Any style....most people will come on here and say their own style but any style can work for anyone. Just choose and turn up



No.


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## oftheherd1

First, welcome to MT.  As you see, advice is easy to get here.



Martial D said:


> Realistically, and I know this might not be a popular opinion here, but for a smaller woman only BJJ will give you a real chance against someone both bigger and stronger than you.



I've never studied BJJ nor Judo, so my opinion of them needs to be taken with that in mind.  But my thought is that BJJ wants to go to the ground too often.  Any BJJ practitioners please correct me if I am wrong.  From what I have seen of Judo, that is not true.  Both teach a lot of joint manipulation which can be good.

Can you tell us what arts are taught close enough for you to easily go to them?



Whispered_Freedom said:


> I've always believed working smarter means doing what you can without feeling drained or using more energy than required. So yes, of course I agree, working smart is by no means expecting easy. Although I'm aware some martial arts are easier than others



I am not aware of any martial art that is 'easier' than others.  Maybe you mean something different by easy than I understand.  As far as I am aware, all MA will require commitment and hard work to learn to a point they will be useful to you.  To do otherwise could in fact, be dangerous from over confidence.

I think @Tez is correct that you should expect training specific to your job.  My impression from those in those fields is that most officers don't want to spend off duty time ensuring they really know how to use what they are taught, to the point it is second nature.  They should.   And you may wish to supplement your training by MA training anyway.  It can be enjoyable in its own right.

But advice usually given here, which is good advice, is to visit different schools in your area and see what art interests you most, and which school makes you feel most comfortable and able to learn in (students and instructors).


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## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> I've never studied BJJ nor Judo, so my opinion of them needs to be taken with that in mind. But my thought is that BJJ wants to go to the ground too often. Any BJJ practitioners please correct me if I am wrong. From what I have seen of Judo, that is not true. Both teach a lot of joint manipulation which can be good.
> 
> Can you tell us what arts are taught close enough for you to easily go to them?



Kind of sort of. 
It is a really complicated discussion. Ultimately if you wanted to not die when pinned under someone you have to train there. Now you can either be dangerous from the bottom or super elusive. 

At an elite level.
BJJ makes you dangerous from the bottom. But you are more inclined to hang out there. So a guy with a slick top game can use that to beat you up. 

There are wrestling versions that will make you super elusive on the ground. And give you a devastating top game. But you don't do submissions. 

And there is this progression of either pulling guard or sitting out and standing up. 

And MMA of course uses elements from both depending on the skill set of the fighter. 

But at your average hack level most people won't be able to hold a BJJer on the deck and a wrestler will just pull your head off. So for self defense it is not as big a deal as people think. 

BJJ is a bit easier generally wrestling will make you tougher generally.


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## JR 137

spidersam said:


> Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.


BJJ wants to end the fight with a choke or a joint lock. With that joint lock you can do two things...
1. Restrain them by using pain compliance until you’ve got backup/someone arrives. 

2. Dislocate or break the joint. Dislocate someone’s elbow or knee, and they’re going to be in a world of hurt and unable to fight. No from BJJ, but I’ve seen elbow and knee dislocations. They’re certainly not pretty. 

The tapout is when the person knows the opponent has that joint lock in right and will do some damage if they don’t stop. 

Note: By knee dislocation, I mean the actual knee and not the knee cap. I’ve seen plenty of knee cap dislocations too though.


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## Bill Mattocks

Going to the ground is bad for cops and we don't do it if we can avoid it (I'm former, not current).  And understand that our hips are where our weapons are, so we want to avoid getting arrestees anywhere near there. It's a whole different set of problems, most don't experience the issues.


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## jobo

spidersam said:


> Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.



but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer,  incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again.


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## JR 137

jobo said:


> but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer,  incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again.


Absolutely. But I’m a BJJ anti-fanboy and have this...

As a striker, what happens when the attacker laughs after you’ve hit him with everything but the kitchen sink?

I’ve laughed at a few people who’ve hit me with everything they had. Those always ended up exactly how I wanted at the time - either I let them walk away with a pride sprain or I taught them a lesson in how to throw a punch.

Practically everything can work and practically nothing will work. It all depends on the person.


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## jobo

JR 137 said:


> Absolutely. But I’m a BJJ anti-fanboy and have this...
> 
> As a striker, what happens when the attacker laughs after you’ve hit him with everything but the kitchen sink?
> 
> I’ve laughed at a few people who’ve hit me with everything they had. Those always ended up exactly how I wanted at the time - either I let them walk away with a pride sprain or I taught them a lesson in how to throw a punch.
> 
> Practically everything can work and practically nothing will work. It all depends on the person.


Yes they are all flawed, for that very reason, it depends not just on the person, but on the persons involved, which is why I can't see an imediatei benifit of bjj over a good few other arts


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## JR 137

jobo said:


> Yes they are all flawed, for that very reason, it depends not just on the person, but on the persons involved, which is why I can't see an imediatei benifit of bjj over a good few other arts


I weigh 225 lbs. I’ve been effectively thrown by people half my weight in wrestling. And they’ve been able to follow the up with things. If you teach someone much smaller than me how to throw and follow up with a choke or joint lock, they’ve got a better chance of doing that than knocking me out. I’ve never been hurt by a punch from a jockey sized guy. 

That doesn’t mean every 100 lb waif has a good chance of throwing me and choking me out. Not even close. But they’ve got a better chance of that than standing toe to toe and trading punches with me.


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## jobo

JR 137 said:


> I weigh 225 lbs. I’ve been effectively thrown by people half my weight in wrestling. And they’ve been able to follow the up with things. If you teach someone much smaller than me how to throw and follow up with a choke or joint lock, they’ve got a better chance of doing that than knocking me out. I’ve never been hurt by a punch from a jockey sized guy.
> 
> That doesn’t mean every 100 lb waif has a good chance of throwing me and choking me out. Not even close. But they’ve got a better chance of that than standing toe to toe and trading punches with me.


Well yes, but I'm hopeful that you don't go around, punching 100lb women, what if it's a 200lbs male that cant punch and is slow on his feet, wack him in the thigh with a MT KICK t slow him down some more and leg it, sounds PREFERABLE to going in to his advantage of using his strength and weight against you,
 There's to many if, buts and maybes to say definitely bbj is the best for a small female and there's other arts hat have throws and holds,


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## dvcochran

jobo said:


> but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer,  incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again.


I agree. I think a lot of people have forgotten the OP said she is small in stature. That is why said earlier she needs to learn the mental side of the game more than "quickly learning a martial art". I do not think she is going at this the right way.


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## JR 137

jobo said:


> Well yes, but I'm hopeful that you don't go around, punching 100lb women, what if it's a 200lbs male that cant punch and is slow on his feet, wack him in the thigh with a MT KICK t slow him down some more and leg it, sounds PREFERABLE to going in to his advantage of using his strength and weight against you,
> There's to many if, buts and maybes to say definitely bbj is the best for a small female and there's other arts hat have throws and holds,


Way too many ifs. I didn’t suggest BJJ, I said Judo would be a good art when someone else said BJJ.

Actually, I said pick a place where you like the instructor and classmates, and keep showing up.


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## jobo

JR 137 said:


> Way too many ifs. I didn’t suggest BJJ, I said Judo would be a good art when someone else said BJJ.
> 
> Actually, I said pick a place where you like the instructor and classmates, and keep showing up.


And I said, the people recommending bjj were fan boys, as that didn't include you, I'm not sure why your debating the point with me, 

NB, I'm not sure judo is necersarily a better choice, but I'm sticking with my bjj issue at the moment


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## Bill Mattocks

I am not going to post anything that is against Judo or BJJ, I don't intend to start a war.  I will state that in my opinion, LE has requirements that are not as conducive to ground games as one might think.

For one thing, a LEO typically has a small arsenal of weapons on their waist.  All of these are designed to be deployed quickly, which means they can be removed from the belt fairly easily.  We do not want to be closing with a person whose hands are not yet secured or is facing us.  Drunks try to grab guns, sorry, it's a fact.  We don't want them anywhere near our weaponry.  That meant for me in the old days, I'd use my Monadnock to club a drunk who reached for my gun.  I'd drop him like a baby seal and no mercy either.  He gets my gun, I'm done.

Second, even if you know how to fall correctly, it can be damned difficult to do it safely on asphalt, gravel, ice, snow, blood, or whatever you find yourself standing on.  And then you have to worry about falling ONTO things which are sharp and pointy, like guns, handcuffs, cans of pepper spray, radios, etc, etc.

Third, stuff goes flying.  Watch a cop fight video sometimes when it goes to ground.  Please note that typically the cop does not voluntarily go to ground unless he's on the suspect's back in a kneeling position.  And even then, his stuff goes flying everywhere, from hat to badge to radio and even sometimes his or her gun.

Fourth, sometimes more than one suspect.  Great way to get kicked in the head by bad guy's drunken buddy who thinks he's helping his buddy out.  Even passersby who are TRYING TO HELP can get decked because we don't know why a person without blue sleeves is trying to pry something loose.  Not that we hate good Samaritans, but we don't know who is who unless they're wearing a badge.

Fifth, most departments these days forbid the use of choke holds.  There are lots of things that a civilian can do to defend themselves that are forbidden to cops.

Sixth, we don't fight fair because we cannot lose.  Losing is not really permitted.  So if Jojo the dogfaced boy reaches for us to bring us into a clinch, he's going to get his hands broken with a night stick.  Ball up a fist and try to throw hands, get a stick in the face.  Not fair?  Too bad, don't attack cops and you don't get mussed up.  Get your hands on one of our weapons and we shoot lots of holes in you.  That's how that game is played.  Civilians do not like to hear about it, but it's true.

There are some rules to cop self-defense, because it's a different game for us (again, formerly in my case) than for most.  We have to engage, most civilians can and should walk away.  We often engage groups, so it's not a one-on-one thing.  Macho don't enter into it, it's about making an apprehension and ending the danger to the public.  Speed of apprehension is much more important than the attacker's safety.  And lastly, we do this far too often.  Our job is to end the danger, make the arrest, do the paperwork and GO HOME SAFELY.  Attack a cop, you get what you get.  Not trying to hurt you, but you not hurting me is much more important at that moment.

Go to the ground?  Not if I can help it.  Does it help to have a ground game?  Absolutely, because sometimes you can't help going to the ground.  But my first go to is verbal.  "Ask 'em, tell 'em, take 'em."  If that doesn't work, it's hands-on.  If they do not cooperate, it's time to apply some come-along type moves.  They go fistic on you, deploy weapons, and Hell comes with me.


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## dvcochran

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am not going to post anything that is against Judo or BJJ, I don't intend to start a war.  I will state that in my opinion, LE has requirements that are not as conducive to ground games as one might think.
> 
> For one thing, a LEO typically has a small arsenal of weapons on their waist.  All of these are designed to be deployed quickly, which means they can be removed from the belt fairly easily.  We do not want to be closing with a person whose hands are not yet secured or is facing us.  Drunks try to grab guns, sorry, it's a fact.  We don't want them anywhere near our weaponry.  That meant for me in the old days, I'd use my Monadnock to club a drunk who reached for my gun.  I'd drop him like a baby seal and no mercy either.  He gets my gun, I'm done.
> 
> Second, even if you know how to fall correctly, it can be damned difficult to do it safely on asphalt, gravel, ice, snow, blood, or whatever you find yourself standing on.  And then you have to worry about falling ONTO things which are sharp and pointy, like guns, handcuffs, cans of pepper spray, radios, etc, etc.
> 
> Third, stuff goes flying.  Watch a cop fight video sometimes when it goes to ground.  Please note that typically the cop does not voluntarily go to ground unless he's on the suspect's back in a kneeling position.  And even then, his stuff goes flying everywhere, from hat to badge to radio and even sometimes his or her gun.
> 
> Fourth, sometimes more than one suspect.  Great way to get kicked in the head by bad guy's drunken buddy who thinks he's helping his buddy out.  Even passersby who are TRYING TO HELP can get decked because we don't know why a person without blue sleeves is trying to pry something loose.  Not that we hate good Samaritans, but we don't know who is who unless they're wearing a badge.
> 
> Fifth, most departments these days forbid the use of choke holds.  There are lots of things that a civilian can do to defend themselves that are forbidden to cops.
> 
> Sixth, we don't fight fair because we cannot lose.  Losing is not really permitted.  So if Jojo the dogfaced boy reaches for us to bring us into a clinch, he's going to get his hands broken with a night stick.  Ball up a fist and try to throw hands, get a stick in the face.  Not fair?  Too bad, don't attack cops and you don't get mussed up.  Get your hands on one of our weapons and we shoot lots of holes in you.  That's how that game is played.  Civilians do not like to hear about it, but it's true.
> 
> There are some rules to cop self-defense, because it's a different game for us (again, formerly in my case) than for most.  We have to engage, most civilians can and should walk away.  We often engage groups, so it's not a one-on-one thing.  Macho don't enter into it, it's about making an apprehension and ending the danger to the public.  Speed of apprehension is much more important than the attacker's safety.  And lastly, we do this far too often.  Our job is to end the danger, make the arrest, do the paperwork and GO HOME SAFELY.  Attack a cop, you get what you get.  Not trying to hurt you, but you not hurting me is much more important at that moment.
> 
> Go to the ground?  Not if I can help it.  Does it help to have a ground game?  Absolutely, because sometimes you can't help going to the ground.  But my first go to is verbal.  "Ask 'em, tell 'em, take 'em."  If that doesn't work, it's hands-on.  If they do not cooperate, it's time to apply some come-along type moves.  They go fistic on you, deploy weapons, and Hell comes with me.


Very well said.


----------



## WaterGal

spidersam said:


> Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.



If she's controlling him, whether in mount, guard, or side mount, she can transition into a choke or joint lock. If she doesn't get the choke successfully and he doesn't pass out, then she can patiently wait and control him until she gets another opportunity. Once you're controlling your opponent, you can be patient and let them waste energy trying to push you away. At least if they're inexperienced.


----------



## WaterGal

oftheherd1 said:


> Can you tell us what arts are taught close enough for you to easily go to them?
> 
> ....
> But advice usually given here, which is good advice, is to visit different schools in your area and see what art interests you most, and which school makes you feel most comfortable and able to learn in (students and instructors).



Yeah, basically this. Even if there was one best martial art to learn for self-defense, if it's not taught in your area, it doesn't matter. What matters is what you can train in regularly. Those are your options.


----------



## jobo

WaterGal said:


> If she's controlling him, whether in mount, guard, or side mount, she can transition into a choke or joint lock. If she doesn't get the choke successfully and he doesn't pass out, then she can patiently wait and control him until she gets another opportunity. Once you're controlling your opponent, you can be patient and let them waste energy trying to push you away. At least if they're inexperienced.


sound like a few dates I've been on

but really, have you dumped a 250lbs attacker on the  ground and controlled him as you describe, oemr is it just the standard forum fantasy your telling us?


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer,  incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again.



I have held guys to close to an hour. They were so wrecked they could barely move.

If I wasn't about arresting, then I would give him the choice either they get up and walk away or the weather girl predicts a high chance of raining elbows.


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Shooting them might work, i think New Zealand police are armed as standard.        (and by extension i think they have firearms in their prisons)


----------



## drop bear

There are a few basic elements regarding dealing professionally with bad guys. 

And this is where they are fighting you and not just being a bit of a duche. (Obviously you try to sell peaceful resolutions to the guy. And you try to put as much advantage to yourself as you can.)

So it could be an arrest. Where generally you take the bad guy down and pin them. Wrestling, bjj that kind of competitive drilling is the core of that dynamic with a different order of priorities. 

It could be a fight. So you have been cracked in the head they have you on your back and you are basically either trying to win or be safe. Again BJJ wrestling MMA where you are live grappling punching and kicking helps. Elements like the stand up, sweep, submit concepts. They go for your belt you are controlling arms that sort of junk. 

It could be a stall. You have been cracked in the head but the guy has backed off. You call for help and then wait for all your friends to come and team up on the guy. Boxing, striking skills evasive footwork will work here. Wrestling sprawls if they get grips and so on. 

Riots can get a bit like this where you are just holding a line. Big fights where you are just trying to keep people separated can be like that. 

And more for us bouncers is the drag. Where you just have to forcefully move a guy from point A to point B. And generally if you don't have mass you have to somehow get a standing wrist lock. Wrestling is still 90% of achieving this because the clinch protects the arm locker and opens the opportunities tho get the lock on. 

All of this is fluid. You can go from stall to drag to arrest to fight and back again. All of this is done with good communication you are still trying to sell the idea of a peaceful resolution.  (So once you can develop composure in a fight you can move on from just yelling stop resisting. I suggest Learning actual sales techniques here)

But yeah. If you want to fight bad guys for a living you need a martial art that does real live fighting. And that works in a real live fighting context. You also can never take a persons word that it works. You have to be able to see it work and then make it work for yourself.


----------



## drop bear

spidersam said:


> Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.



In the words of Dalton.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> I have held guys to close to an hour. They were so wrecked they could barely move.
> 
> If I wasn't about arresting, then I would give him the choice either they get up and walk away or the weather girl predicts a high chance of raining elbows.


yes, but your not a young lady , which is the thread topic


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> yes, but your not a young lady , which is the thread topic



Girls don't have elbows?


----------



## Danny T

jobo said:


> yes, but your not a young lady , which is the thread topic


But can she be taught and trained to be able to?


----------



## JR 137

jobo said:


> And I said, the people recommending bjj were fan boys, as that didn't include you, I'm not sure why your debating the point with me,
> 
> NB, I'm not sure judo is necersarily a better choice, but I'm sticking with my bjj issue at the moment


I’m not debating anything with you. Simply a conversation among friends.


----------



## jobo

Danny T said:


> But can she be taught and trained to be able to?


well that's the big question, can she, allowing that we know nothing about her fitness, health attributes, and temperament , but we do know she is petite,, be trained to incapacitated a 250lb male,weight training attacker 

I'd say it's a big ask for anyone ,


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Girls don't have elbows?


I asked a " girl" who said it could be done, if she had ever done so, ,  I'm sure there's some girls some where who could do so, there's girls who can bench press 400lbs, but it's not that common, that you can say any girl can


----------



## Bill Mattocks

People who haven't and don't have lots of opinions.


----------



## Danny T

jobo said:


> well that's the big question, can she, allowing that we know nothing about her fitness, health attributes, and temperament , but we do know she is petite,, be trained to incapacitated a 250lb male,weight training attacker
> 
> I'd say it's a big ask for anyone ,


Driving down the road is a risk as well for anyone. 
Don't know her age but she has made it to this point so far. Probably an average person but petite and can learn to do so. May well need alternative devises within her self defense training would be needed but she could learn to use such as well. 
No one can be completely assured to be able to incapacitate any attacker, not even a 250lb weight training male.


----------



## jobo

Danny T said:


> Driving down the road is a risk as well for anyone.
> Don't know her age but she has made it to this point so far. Probably an average person but petite and can learn to do so. May well need alternative devises within her self defense training would be needed but she could learn to use such as well.
> No one can be completely assured to be able to incapacitate any attacker, not even a 250lb weight training male.


well that's exactly my point, if we cant be sure that a 250lb weight training bjj practising male can defend themselves, how can we say that a petite female who takes up bjj can, but that's more or less the advice that was given


----------



## Danny T

jobo said:


> well that's exactly my point, if we cant be sure that a 250lb weight training bjj practising male can defend themselves, how can we say that a petite female who takes up bjj can, but that's more or less the advice that was given


Based on that there is no reason for anyone to train.


----------



## jobo

Danny T said:


> Based on that there is no reason for anyone to train.


well let's face it most peple don't and their lives are just fine,

but if you do then you need to have some realism about what is achievable I've a feeling that a day might come when some folks on here may get a bit of a shock


----------



## Danny T

jobo said:


> well let's face it most peple don't and their lives are just fine


And that has nothing to do with her not being able to be trained.



jobo said:


> but if you do then you need to have some realism about what is achievable I've a feeling that a day might come when some folks on here may get a bit of a shock


Agreed.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> I asked a " girl" who said it could be done, if she had ever done so, ,  I'm sure there's some girls some where who could do so, there's girls who can bench press 400lbs, but it's not that common, that you can say any girl can



This was your question.

*"but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer, incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again*."


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well that's exactly my point, if we cant be sure that a 250lb weight training bjj practising male can defend themselves, how can we say that a petite female who takes up bjj can, but that's more or less the advice that was given



Because they will be matched up with 250lb guys in training.

And they will either win or get smashed.

And so will have a realistic assessment of their ability.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

spidersam said:


> Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.



In my opinion, the close quarters wrestling styles - Judo, BJJ, Sombo, collegiate wrestling, catch wrestling, etc - are all just different facets of one art. That art is controlling someone else's body without them being able to control you.

Defensively, that means: being able to break an opponent's grips, keep them from controlling you in a clinch, keep them from taking you down, landing safely if they do take you down, escaping or reversing bad positions on the ground and being able to get up safely when someone is trying to keep you down.

Offensively, that means: being able to tie someone up in a clinch so they can't hit you effectively but you can hit them, being able to move them around, being able to throw them on their butt, or their back, or their face, or their head, being able to control their position on the ground, being able to control their limbs, break their limbs, choke them unconscious, being able to pin them in place while you beat on them or just until they are too exhausted fight. Lots of options.

The difference between these arts (or facets of an art as I like to think of them) is mostly a matter of emphasis and competition rule sets. The underlying physical principles are the same. Being a good wrestler will make you better at BJJ. Being good at BJJ will make you better at Judo. Being good at Judo will make you better at Sombo.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I am not going to post anything that is against Judo or BJJ, I don't intend to start a war.  I will state that in my opinion, LE has requirements that are not as conducive to ground games as one might think.
> 
> For one thing, a LEO typically has a small arsenal of weapons on their waist.  All of these are designed to be deployed quickly, which means they can be removed from the belt fairly easily.  We do not want to be closing with a person whose hands are not yet secured or is facing us.  Drunks try to grab guns, sorry, it's a fact.  We don't want them anywhere near our weaponry.  That meant for me in the old days, I'd use my Monadnock to club a drunk who reached for my gun.  I'd drop him like a baby seal and no mercy either.  He gets my gun, I'm done.
> 
> Second, even if you know how to fall correctly, it can be damned difficult to do it safely on asphalt, gravel, ice, snow, blood, or whatever you find yourself standing on.  And then you have to worry about falling ONTO things which are sharp and pointy, like guns, handcuffs, cans of pepper spray, radios, etc, etc.
> 
> Third, stuff goes flying.  Watch a cop fight video sometimes when it goes to ground.  Please note that typically the cop does not voluntarily go to ground unless he's on the suspect's back in a kneeling position.  And even then, his stuff goes flying everywhere, from hat to badge to radio and even sometimes his or her gun.
> 
> Fourth, sometimes more than one suspect.  Great way to get kicked in the head by bad guy's drunken buddy who thinks he's helping his buddy out.  Even passersby who are TRYING TO HELP can get decked because we don't know why a person without blue sleeves is trying to pry something loose.  Not that we hate good Samaritans, but we don't know who is who unless they're wearing a badge.
> 
> Fifth, most departments these days forbid the use of choke holds.  There are lots of things that a civilian can do to defend themselves that are forbidden to cops.
> 
> Sixth, we don't fight fair because we cannot lose.  Losing is not really permitted.  So if Jojo the dogfaced boy reaches for us to bring us into a clinch, he's going to get his hands broken with a night stick.  Ball up a fist and try to throw hands, get a stick in the face.  Not fair?  Too bad, don't attack cops and you don't get mussed up.  Get your hands on one of our weapons and we shoot lots of holes in you.  That's how that game is played.  Civilians do not like to hear about it, but it's true.
> 
> There are some rules to cop self-defense, because it's a different game for us (again, formerly in my case) than for most.  We have to engage, most civilians can and should walk away.  We often engage groups, so it's not a one-on-one thing.  Macho don't enter into it, it's about making an apprehension and ending the danger to the public.  Speed of apprehension is much more important than the attacker's safety.  And lastly, we do this far too often.  Our job is to end the danger, make the arrest, do the paperwork and GO HOME SAFELY.  Attack a cop, you get what you get.  Not trying to hurt you, but you not hurting me is much more important at that moment.
> 
> Go to the ground?  Not if I can help it.  Does it help to have a ground game?  Absolutely, because sometimes you can't help going to the ground.  But my first go to is verbal.  "Ask 'em, tell 'em, take 'em."  If that doesn't work, it's hands-on.  If they do not cooperate, it's time to apply some come-along type moves.  They go fistic on you, deploy weapons, and Hell comes with me.



Approaching a use of force encounter as a LEO using competition BJJ or Judo tactics would obviously be a bad idea. The trick is to realize that the physical skills of being able to control someone without being controlled are still very useful. You just have to adapt those skills to a different set of tactical priorities. Being able to stop someone from tackling you to the ground (or failing that, being able to escape quickly when you are tackled to the ground) is very useful. Being able to control his limbs if he grabs you so he doesn't reach your weapons is useful. Being able to take a suspect to the ground and pin him there so you can cuff him is useful.

In my opinion, someone who understands grappling should be able to adapt the use of their skills to different contexts, whether it's one type of grappling competition, a different type of grappling competition, MMA competition, street self defense, LEO work, or whatever.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> This was your question.
> 
> *"but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer, incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again*."


no that was my first question, I asked wAtergal a question above


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Tony Dismukes said:


> In my opinion, the close quarters wrestling styles - Judo, BJJ, Sombo, collegiate wrestling, catch wrestling, etc - are all just different facets of one art. That art is controlling someone else's body without them being able to control you.
> 
> Defensively, that means: being able to break an opponent's grips, keep them from controlling you in a clinch, keep them from taking you down, landing safely if they do take you down, escaping or reversing bad positions on the ground and being able to get up safely when someone is trying to keep you down.
> 
> Offensively, that means: being able to tie someone up in a clinch so they can't hit you effectively but you can hit them, being able to move them around, being able to throw them on their butt, or their back, or their face, or their head, being able to control their position on the ground, being able to control their limbs, break their limbs, choke them unconscious, being able to pin them in place while you beat on them or just until they are too exhausted fight. Lots of options.
> 
> The difference between these arts (or facets of an art as I like to think of them) is mostly a matter of emphasis and competition rule sets. The underlying physical principles are the same. Being a good wrestler will make you better at BJJ. Being good at BJJ will make you better at Judo. Being good at Judo will make you better at Sombo.
> 
> 
> 
> Approaching a use of force encounter as a LEO using competition BJJ or Judo tactics would obviously be a bad idea. The trick is to realize that the physical skills of being able to control someone without being controlled are still very useful. You just have to adapt those skills to a different set of tactical priorities. Being able to stop someone from tackling you to the ground (or failing that, being able to escape quickly when you are tackled to the ground) is very useful. Being able to control his limbs if he grabs you so he doesn't reach your weapons is useful. Being able to take a suspect to the ground and pin him there so you can cuff him is useful.
> 
> In my opinion, someone who understands grappling should be able to adapt the use of their skills to different contexts, whether it's one type of grappling competition, a different type of grappling competition, MMA competition, street self defense, LEO work, or whatever.



I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.


----------



## JR 137

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.


People somehow forget that a LEO’s job is quite a bit different than us civilians’ job. Our job is to get the hell out of the situation as quickly and quietly as possible. By whatever reasonable and rational means necessary.

A LEO’s job is to stick around and end the situation. Their objective is pretty much cuff ‘em and get them into custody. Choke ‘em out, knock ‘em out and/or bust up a limb is the last resort, short of shooting them.

And they’ve got a whole bunch of different things to consider - legality, equipment they’re wearing/carrying, backup, partners, etc.

I’m not a LEO, so that’s my best educated guess. And if a LEO tells me otherwise, I don’t have much of a leg to stand on. If they give a poster conflicting advice, I’m on the sidelines listening and keeping my mouth shut.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> no that was my first question, I asked wAtergal a question above



That was the question I replied to by quoting. 

Whatever other questions you asked other people through your day are your problems.


----------



## drop bear

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.



Is this the1970s approach where mabye you can hold a guy down with a wrist lock or arm bar. Back in the day when everyone thought aikido was a superpower because it worked so well in drills?

Avoiding going to the ground in a restraint or arrest situation where you feel there is a risk is the worst advice ever. And you shouldn't be advising it as you are getting people hurt.

If you want to suggest a method works. Show that method working. It is simple as that.

Does throwing a guy to the ground and basically sitting on them work? Hundreds of you tube videos of everyone around the world doing exactly that says yes. It is pretty simple.

Explain your methods and then show it working in real time.

Otherwise this doesn't work very well.





I know this because I have done it. But I don't expect people to just believe me. That is not how accountability works.

I hunt down a video of it working. So that people can see what I am discussing.

Tow truck driver understands this.


----------



## CB Jones

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.



Nothing wrong with taking the fight to the ground...that's the best place to handcuff them....you just have to use tactics and techniques that are going to protect your gun and will put you in position to get handcuffs on them.


----------



## drop bear

Oh and by the way if you are going to hang of an arm. Figure 4 the thing that way at least he will have a super hard time getting you off them.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

CB Jones said:


> Nothing wrong with taking the fight to the ground...that's the best place to handcuff them....you just have to use tactics and techniques that are going to protect your gun and will put you in position to get handcuffs on them.



Lots of things wrong, actually. I've explained what some of them are.


----------



## TMA17

*"Approaching a use of force encounter as a LEO using competition BJJ or Judo tactics would obviously be a bad idea. The trick is to realize that the physical skills of being able to control someone without being controlled are still very useful. You just have to adapt those skills to a different set of tactical priorities. Being able to stop someone from tackling you to the ground (or failing that, being able to escape quickly when you are tackled to the ground) is very useful. Being able to control his limbs if he grabs you so he doesn't reach your weapons is useful. Being able to take a suspect to the ground and pin him there so you can cuff him is useful.

In my opinion, someone who understands grappling should be able to adapt the use of their skills to different contexts, whether it's one type of grappling competition, a different type of grappling competition, MMA competition, street self defense, LEO work, or whatever."
*
These are great points Tony.


----------



## CB Jones

Bill Mattocks said:


> Lots of things wrong, actually. I've explained what some of them are.



We just have a little difference in tactics then.  The agency I work for advises that actively resistant suspects should be taken down to the ground for handcuffing and cautions us about trying to handcuff somone who is actively fighting you from a standing position.


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> We just have a little difference in tactics then.  The agency I work for advises that actively resistant suspects should be taken down to the ground for handcuffing and cautions us about trying to handcuff somone who is actively fighting you from a standing position.


I’d imagine the best way to handcuff a truly resisting person would be them on their stomach with the LEO on top of them. Seems safer for everyone, most notably the LEO. The question becomes how do you get the person there safely (for you and him).

Never working law enforcement personally, that’s just a guess.


----------



## CB Jones

JR 137 said:


> I’d imagine the best way to handcuff a truly resisting person would be them on their stomach with the LEO on top of them. Seems safer for everyone, most notably the LEO. The question becomes how do you get the person there safely (for you and him).
> 
> Never working law enforcement personally, that’s just a guess.



On their stomach is ideral...and if they are fighting me....their safety on the way down is not really a concern (to a degree).  You can't Power Bomb them courtesy of Dr Insano.   but nothing wrong with maybe faceplanting the guy on the way down..


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> On their stomach is ideral...and if they are fighting me....their safety on the way down is not really a concern (to a degree).  You can't Power Bomb them courtesy of Dr Insano.   but nothing wrong with maybe faceplanting the guy on the way down..


Courtesy of Capt. Insano 

My old dojomate is now a local cop. He was telling me a great story you reminded me of. 

Him and his partner pull ove a drunk. The guy starts resisting and getting belligerent. His partner reaches for the pepper spray, and my buddy says “F this, we’re going old-school” and bounces the guy’s head off the hood.

The guy’s in the back of the cruiser complaining about his face hurting and saying police brutality. My buddy says “he was going to pepper spray you. I don’t want to get pepper sprayed because of you. Would you have rathered the hood or pepper spray?” Guy says “I’ll take the hood every time” and didn’t say another word.


----------



## WaterGal

jobo said:


> sound like a few dates I've been on
> 
> but really, have you dumped a 250lbs attacker on the  ground and controlled him as you describe, oemr is it just the standard forum fantasy your telling us?



I've fortunately never had to use more than verbal tactics to defend myself. However, in sparring? Yes. Just a couple weeks ago I worked with a newbie guy that had probably 80-100lbs on me, got him into my guard, controlled him, rolled him over, transitioned to arm bar and tapped him out. The next round, though, he used his weight to really smoosh me, and once he got on top I couldn't escape and we just stayed like that until the end of the round.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> On their stomach is ideral...and if they are fighting me....their safety on the way down is not really a concern (to a degree).  You can't Power Bomb them courtesy of Dr Insano.   but nothing wrong with maybe faceplanting the guy on the way down..



Which is the ball's bit about choke holds. 

Because you can drag a guy down and protect their head.


----------



## drop bear

WaterGal said:


> I've fortunately never had to use more than verbal tactics to defend myself. However, in sparring? Yes. Just a couple weeks ago I worked with a newbie guy that had probably 80-100lbs on me, got him into my guard, controlled him, rolled him over, transitioned to arm bar and tapped him out. The next round, though, he used his weight to really smoosh me, and once he got on top I couldn't escape and we just stayed like that until the end of the round.



New guys lay and pray. And therefore don't give up opportunities that you would otherwise get. Which is good because it changes your technique to counter that. 

And where the concept game of inches starts to factor in.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Which is the ball's bit about choke holds.
> 
> Because you can drag a guy down and protect their head.



Where choke holds cause big problems is guys will use them when they have numbers.

If there are 3 guys holding down 1 guy it's hard to claim it was reasonable to choke him.  Whereas if you are by yourself it becomes much easier to articulate that the choke was needed.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Because you can drag a guy down and protect their head.



I like the arm triangle because of this.

You can trip them or drag them down and easily move to a good handcuffing position.

And it protects your gun really well


----------



## Deleted member 39746

I think the only concern with the throw them on the ground thing is pending the grounds material, given the usual police take down video has the person propelled at some speed onto a quite hard surface. 

Amusing thing is i saw a active self protection video where someone would have benefited from a hand lock as he was trying to hand lock someones hand as it was on the window of a vehicle.   Needless to say the person got out of it and i think drew a pistol with the hand.     So such things are pretty obscure but when you need them you need them.        (i think it was ASP)


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> I like the arm triangle because of this.
> 
> You can trip them or drag them down and easily move to a good handcuffing position.
> 
> And it protects your gun really well



Yeah. I fall in to this.





Which then preserves my old man knees on the concrete.

I tend to trip people from there as well. But hey if you wanted to go next level.


----------



## lklawson

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Hi. In the security industry and planning on joining either the police force or corrections industry. So being able to manage individuals and groups if need be.


You 100% need some sort of grappling based for Security, LEO, and CO.  Most of the cops I've known went into Judo, followed by Brazilian Ju Jitsu, and some went for Aikido.  For most of the stuff surrounding Sec/LEO/CO, standing based grappling should be on a priority over ground based but do not neglect ground.  It's stupid easy for an idiot go barnacle on and drag someone to the floor.  Striking should be used with caution in all three of these directions.  Striking "looks" aggressive and can turn into law suits and official complaints.

I also very strongly recommend buying the Verbal Judo book & videos by George Thompson.  Youtube has an old video set by Thompson which is helpful but not as in-depth as the video series.  Verbal Judo is originally intended for LEO but fits very well with CO and Sec.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## StellarAevum

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.
> 
> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers



Martial Arts? Markmanship, quickdraw, and baton fighting. Less snarky though, as I think by martial arts you meant unarmed martial arts, wherever you can find a good self-defense focused school. 

All effective martial arts requires some degree of physical conditioning. While some might say Jujutsu is good for people who are less strong, I've found the exercises in Japenese Jujutsu to be much more exhausting and strenuous than anything I have done in Shotokan Karate so far. 

But as some people have pointed out, the skills that will be most useful for your job will be de-escalation skills, then training with firearms, then training with melee weapons, and then unarmed training. 

Seeing as you will likely always have some form of melee weapon on hand, I think that the most likely scenario that you would be deprived of using your weapon is if you were being grappled, so I would suggest a good grappling school if you can find one. I have heard that Judo was originally created by a very slight and petite man in order to defend himself from stronger attackers, so maybe that would be ideal. But I would suggest prioritizing a good school of a style you are less interested in over a bad school of a style you are interested in.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

StellarAevum said:


> I have heard that Judo was originally created by a very slight and petite man in order to defend himself from stronger attackers, so maybe that would be ideal. But I would suggest prioritizing a good school of a style you are less interested in over a bad school of a style you are interested in.


He was particularly petite. From my memory and confirmed by google-fu, kano jigoro was just above 5 feet tall, and 165 pounds.


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## lklawson

kempodisciple said:


> He was particularly petite. From my memory and confirmed by google-fu, kano jigoro was just above 5 feet tall, and 165 pounds.


Wasn't that roughly the average for adult males in Japan during the late 19th Century?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

lklawson said:


> Wasn't that roughly the average for adult males in Japan during the late 19th Century?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Meant to write *wasn't.


----------



## oftheherd1

StellarAevum said:


> Martial Arts? Markmanship, quickdraw, and *baton fighting*. Less snarky though, as I think by martial arts you meant unarmed martial arts, wherever you can find a good self-defense focused school.
> 
> All effective martial arts requires some degree of physical conditioning. While some might say Jujutsu is good for people who are less strong, I've found the exercises in Japenese Jujutsu to be much more exhausting and strenuous than anything I have done in Shotokan Karate so far.
> 
> But as some people have pointed out, the skills that will be most useful for your job will be de-escalation skills, then training with firearms, then training with melee weapons, and then unarmed training.
> 
> Seeing as you will likely always have some form of melee weapon on hand, I think that the most likely scenario that you would be deprived of using your weapon is if you were being grappled, so I would suggest a good grappling school if you can find one. I have heard that Judo was originally created by a very slight and petite man in order to defend himself from stronger attackers, so maybe that would be ideal. But I would suggest prioritizing a good school of a style you are less interested in over a bad school of a style you are interested in.



MEP use is often shown more as a blocking device, and arm striking extender, which it is good at.  But it can be an amazing extension for grappling moves as well; so it is useful for control moves.


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## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> MEP use is often shown more as a blocking device, and arm striking extender, which it is good at.  But it can be an amazing extension for grappling moves as well; so it is useful for control moves.



Every time I tried to grapple with a baton. I wound up having to fight the guy for it. 

Hold one end and hit with the other.


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## jobo

WaterGal said:


> I've fortunately never had to use more than verbal tactics to defend myself. However, in sparring? Yes. Just a couple weeks ago I worked with a newbie guy that had probably 80-100lbs on me, got him into my guard, controlled him, rolled him over, transitioned to arm bar and tapped him out. The next round, though, he used his weight to really smoosh me, and once he got on top I couldn't escape and we just stayed like that until the end of the round.


yes that's a bit more realistic real life sort of outcome


----------



## jks9199

Bill Mattocks said:


> Lots of things wrong, actually. I've explained what some of them are.





CB Jones said:


> We just have a little difference in tactics then.  The agency I work for advises that actively resistant suspects should be taken down to the ground for handcuffing and cautions us about trying to handcuff somone who is actively fighting you from a standing position.


Taking a subject to the ground is a tactical choice, and often a very good one.  You remove a lot of their mobility and opportunity to fight you.  But it's not the same as "going to the ground to fight."  When we take a suspect to the ground, we take them down in a way that puts us in a position of maximum advantage, and compromises their ability to resist.  It's not the same as an MMA fighter choosing to pull an opponent into their guard, to move from a stand up punching match to a ground fight, etc.  I think you and Bill would agree with each other, and are just getting caught in a combination of phrasing and of working in different eras.


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## drop bear

jks9199 said:


> Taking a subject to the ground is a tactical choice, and often a very good one.  You remove a lot of their mobility and opportunity to fight you.  But it's not the same as "going to the ground to fight."  When we take a suspect to the ground, we take them down in a way that puts us in a position of maximum advantage, and compromises their ability to resist.  It's not the same as an MMA fighter choosing to pull an opponent into their guard, to move from a stand up punching match to a ground fight, etc.  I think you and Bill would agree with each other, and are just getting caught in a combination of phrasing and of working in different eras.



Um... what?


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## drop bear

Anyway there is a counter theory. That you want to do something like this which avoids all the messy rolling around like a fool.






Belt kit is safe, you stay standing and the bad guy regardless of size is subdued.


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## WaterGal

drop bear said:


> New guys lay and pray. And therefore don't give up opportunities that you would otherwise get. Which is good because it changes your technique to counter that.
> 
> And where the concept game of inches starts to factor in.



Yeah. Now, he couldn't get out of my guard either. It was basically stalemate. Which is still a better outcome than having him choking me or whatever. Knowing more BJJ than him meant that, at least, he wasn't hurting me.


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## Tony Dismukes

jks9199 said:


> Taking a subject to the ground is a tactical choice, and often a very good one.  You remove a lot of their mobility and opportunity to fight you.  But it's not the same as "going to the ground to fight."  When we take a suspect to the ground, we take them down in a way that puts us in a position of maximum advantage, and compromises their ability to resist.  It's not the same as an MMA fighter choosing to pull an opponent into their guard, to move from a stand up punching match to a ground fight, etc.  I think you and Bill would agree with each other, and are just getting caught in a combination of phrasing and of working in different eras.


Pulling an opponent into guard is usually not the best option for an MMA fighter wanting to take the fight to the ground either. Generally you want to take the other fighter down and end up on top of them, preferably in a position where you can control their movement and inflict damage while preventing them from fighting back effectively. Guard is typically used to survive and equalize the situation when someone else takes you down and ends up on top.

There are exceptions where a fighter has an exceptionally tricky attack game from the bottom that makes it worth pulling guard (for example Ryan Hall dropping in to single-leg x-guard to threaten leg locks), but those are exactly that - exceptions.

The same applies for using BJJ in a street self-defense situation. I teach my students to take an attacker down and either run or move into a dominant top position. Guard is for when you’ve ended up on the bottom against your will.

Sport BJJ competition is a different matter. The typical tournament rules make pulling guard a totally viable strategy.


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## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I fall in to this.
> View attachment 22056
> 
> Which then preserves my old man knees on the concrete.
> 
> I tend to trip people from there as well. But hey if you wanted to go next level.


My knees resemble that remark.


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## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> Pulling an opponent into guard is usually not the best option for an MMA fighter wanting to take the fight to the ground either. Generally you want to take the other fighter down and end up on top of them, preferably in a position where you can control their movement and inflict damage while preventing them from fighting back effectively. Guard is typically used to survive and equalize the situation when someone else takes you down and ends up on top.
> 
> There are exceptions where a fighter has an exceptionally tricky attack game from the bottom that makes it worth pulling guard (for example Ryan Hall dropping in to single-leg x-guard to threaten leg locks), but those are exactly that - exceptions.
> 
> The same applies for using BJJ in a street self-defense situation. I teach my students to take an attacker down and either run or move into a dominant top position. Guard is for when you’ve ended up on the bottom against your will.
> 
> Sport BJJ competition is a different matter. The typical tournament rules make pulling guard a totally viable strategy.



Thanks. My explanation was going to be super abrasive. I was hoping someone would pipe up and hit that with a bit of tact.


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## lklawson

drop bear said:


> Every time I tried to grapple with a baton. I wound up having to fight the guy for it.
> 
> Hold one end and hit with the other.


If only there were some sort of acknowledged master at grappling you could learn from who used his skills to come up with a grappling stick or club system.  





https://www.amazon.com/Gene-LeBell-Grappling-Club-Master/dp/0967654300
Gene LeBell, The Grappling Club Master - USAdojo.com

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear

lklawson said:


> If only there were some sort of acknowledged master at grappling you could learn from who used his skills to come up with a grappling stick or club system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Gene-LeBell-Grappling-Club-Master/dp/0967654300
> Gene LeBell, The Grappling Club Master - USAdojo.com
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I did Hock's Dos manos system there for a bit. 

I think it is the concept that is fraught with danger rather than the application.


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## Deleted member 40306

Hello... I recommend that you start your journey with this book:





What few mention is awarness. You have to understand what that is first.
This book will teach you about rooting... how your feet are not the end of your body.
In short, it awakened abilities I never knew I had. The external martial art is fantastic... but the internal(intrinsic), that's the stuff that keeps you whole.


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## lklawson

drop bear said:


> I did Hock's Dos manos system there for a bit.
> 
> I think it is the concept that is fraught with danger rather than the application.


If you think that Gene Lebell looks like Hochheim then you need your eyes checked. If you think that Judo looks like Dos Manos then you need your head checked.

(mobile)


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## drop bear

lklawson said:


> If you think that Gene Lebell looks like Hochheim then you need your eyes checked. If you think that Judo looks like Dos Manos then you need your head checked.
> 
> (mobile)



Pretty sure they are the same guy.

When have you seen them together?


----------



## Whispered_Freedom

oftheherd1 said:


> First, welcome to MT.  As you see, advice is easy to get here.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never studied BJJ nor Judo, so my opinion of them needs to be taken with that in mind.  But my thought is that BJJ wants to go to the ground too often.  Any BJJ practitioners please correct me if I am wrong.  From what I have seen of Judo, that is not true.  Both teach a lot of joint manipulation which can be good.
> 
> Can you tell us what arts are taught close enough for you to easily go to them?
> 
> 
> 
> I am not aware of any martial art that is 'easier' than others.  Maybe you mean something different by easy than I understand.  As far as I am aware, all MA will require commitment and hard work to learn to a point they will be useful to you.  To do otherwise could in fact, be dangerous from over confidence.
> 
> I think @Tez is correct that you should expect training specific to your job.  My impression from those in those fields is that most officers don't want to spend off duty time ensuring they really know how to use what they are taught, to the point it is second nature.  They should.   And you may wish to supplement your training by MA training anyway.  It can be enjoyable in its own right.
> 
> But advice usually given here, which is good advice, is to visit different schools in your area and see what art interests you most, and which school makes you feel most comfortable and able to learn in (students and instructors).


Thank you. And tell that to those who say things like Aikido is easier for women because they don't require as much strength etc.


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## Whispered_Freedom

Bill Mattocks said:


> Going to the ground is bad for cops and we don't do it if we can avoid it (I'm former, not current).  And understand that our hips are where our weapons are, so we want to avoid getting arrestees anywhere near there. It's a whole different set of problems, most don't experience the issues.


Hi, that's actually good to know. Do you mind telling me why the hips are your weapons?


----------



## Whispered_Freedom

dvcochran said:


> I agree. I think a lot of people have forgotten the OP said she is small in stature. That is why said earlier she needs to learn the mental side of the game more than "quickly learning a martial art". I do not think she is going at this the right way.


I agree you need to be mentally tough as well. But I already have that and I'm only interested in the physical side now. Would you rather I keep putting off martial arts? Isn't it the earlier you start the better? It's not about being able to quickly learn martial arts, if someone can then good on them. If you put it that way, then it can't be that hard, can it


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## Whispered_Freedom

Rat said:


> Shooting them might work, i think New Zealand police are armed as standard.        (and by extension i think they have firearms in their prisons)


Nobody is armed 24/7. Lol. I think it's really useful to be able to defend yourself without weapons.


----------



## Whispered_Freedom

lklawson said:


> You 100% need some sort of grappling based for Security, LEO, and CO.  Most of the cops I've known went into Judo, followed by Brazilian Ju Jitsu, and some went for Aikido.  For most of the stuff surrounding Sec/LEO/CO, standing based grappling should be on a priority over ground based but do not neglect ground.  It's stupid easy for an idiot go barnacle on and drag someone to the floor.  Striking should be used with caution in all three of these directions.  Striking "looks" aggressive and can turn into law suits and official complaints.
> 
> I also very strongly recommend buying the Verbal Judo book & videos by George Thompson.  Youtube has an old video set by Thompson which is helpful but not as in-depth as the video series.  Verbal Judo is originally intended for LEO but fits very well with CO and Sec.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Verbal Judo? That's something new, thanks.


----------



## Whispered_Freedom

StellarAevum said:


> Martial Arts? Markmanship, quickdraw, and baton fighting. Less snarky though, as I think by martial arts you meant unarmed martial arts, wherever you can find a good self-defense focused school.
> 
> All effective martial arts requires some degree of physical conditioning. While some might say Jujutsu is good for people who are less strong, I've found the exercises in Japenese Jujutsu to be much more exhausting and strenuous than anything I have done in Shotokan Karate so far.
> 
> But as some people have pointed out, the skills that will be most useful for your job will be de-escalation skills, then training with firearms, then training with melee weapons, and then unarmed training.
> 
> Seeing as you will likely always have some form of melee weapon on hand, I think that the most likely scenario that you would be deprived of using your weapon is if you were being grappled, so I would suggest a good grappling school if you can find one. I have heard that Judo was originally created by a very slight and petite man in order to defend himself from stronger attackers, so maybe that would be ideal. But I would suggest prioritizing a good school of a style you are less interested in over a bad school of a style you are interested in.


That's good to know. Thank you for that


----------



## JR 137

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Hi, that's actually good to know. Do you mind telling me why the hips are your weapons?


Weapons, ie gun, pepper spray, etc. are ON the hips of law enforcement officers. They hang off the belt.


----------



## Whispered_Freedom

JR 137 said:


> Weapons, ie gun, pepper spray, etc. are ON the hips of law enforcement officers. They hang off the belt.


Oh.... I thought there was more to it than that but all good


----------



## jobo

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I agree you need to be mentally tough as well. But I already have that and I'm only interested in the physical side now. Would you rather I keep putting off martial arts? Isn't it the earlier you start the better? It's not about being able to quickly learn martial arts, if someone can then good on them. If you put it that way, then it can't be that hard, can it


Go and do one, any one really, it rather depends who is likely to attack you and for what reason, sometimes just fighting back is enough to put them off, no one wants to be beaten up by a girl, other time wacking them on the nose and legging it is a very good choice, if on the other hand you want to be able to completely distroy them then it's a far taller order.

When my youngest sister, who is very girly, turned 18 and was going out and about, I took her weight training to build up her physical conditioning and then to Lau gau kung Fu, 6 months later her physical conditioning was extremely good and she could most certainly break someone's nose or kick then hard enough to make them limp, but the odds of her actually wining a fight against a big determine guy were still quite low, but then she got a big tough boy friend, so it was less important that she could walk round town in  safety


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## Whispered_Freedom

jobo said:


> Go and do one, any one really, it rather depends who is likely to attack you and for what reason, sometimes just fighting back is enough to put them off, no one wants to be beaten up by a girl, other time wacking them on the nose and legging it is a very good choice, if on the other hand you want to be able to completely distroy them then it's a far taller order.
> 
> When my youngest sister, who is very girly, turned 18 and was going out and about, I took her weight training to build up her physical conditioning and then to Lau gau kung Fu, 6 months later her physical conditioning was extremely good and she could most certainly break someone's nose or kick then hard enough to make them limp, but the odds of her actually wining a fight against a big determine guy were still quite low, but then she got a big tough boy friend, so it was less important that she could walk round town in  safety


Haha, must've encouraged her to get a tough dude to protect her


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## jobo

Ye


Whispered_Freedom said:


> Haha, must've encouraged her to get a tough dude to protect her


 Yea she wasn't going out with anyone who could only bench press twice what she could,

I watched a young slim girl at the gym, doing boxing pad work , ok no one was trying to hit her, but her movement and punching power were really impressive, and I thought she is going to give someone a really nasty suprise one day


----------



## dvcochran

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I agree you need to be mentally tough as well. But I already have that and I'm only interested in the physical side now. Would you rather I keep putting off martial arts? Isn't it the earlier you start the better? It's not about being able to quickly learn martial arts, if someone can then good on them. If you put it that way, then it can't be that hard, can it


Certainly do not wait to start learning a MA. It will have value regardless of your profession. I do not know the climate in New Zealand at all but from my LEO experience in the U.S. additional training is needed. I am not talking about just being mentally tough. The art of dealing with people, in public and in private is vital.

There were officers I worked with that had exponentially more resisting arrest charges. It wasn't that they were making more arrest, it was the way the arrest were handled. Through observation, I learned it had a lot to do with how they dealt with the situation. A few of them just loved the power trip of being an officer and a few just loved to fight. A few had a submissive character which led people to think they could resist and win. But most of the officers with high resisting arrest rates just did not understand how important their demeanor and how to speak to a person was. Even speaking with authority can be done right or it can come off abrasive, elevating the situation. Also speed is usually a valued quality. The quicker an officer surmises an arrest is to be made and gets the cuffs on the better. Especially if the perp is under the influence. Cuff 'em before they really know what is going and get pissed off.

It is still one of the best assessments a person can do when evaluating something. Being totally honest, make a few lists. One would be the positives and negatives of becoming a LEO. One would be you current skills and ALL the areas where you are lacking knowledge/experience. A third could be the lifestyle and economic +/- 's of being a LEO. They are real and should be evaluated.

Know this, the last thing I am trying to do is sway you away from this path. I am just trying to help you prepare and have an understanding of the ammunition you need going in. Yes, some of it you will learn on the job but that is a very bad approach given the inherent risks of the job. I wish you the very best. Keep us in the loop.


----------



## Druid11

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.
> 
> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers



While there are martial arts that are better and worse for self-defense, my suggestion is to pick a martial art you actually like and not to worry so much about which is most "effective".  If you don't enjoy practicing it eventually you'll quit regardless of how effective the art is.  You also won't want to push yourself to get better if you don't enjoy it.  There is no magic martial art that will make you invincible.  Aikido isn't probably the most practical martial on the planet, for example.  But if you really like practicing Aikido and work hard at getting better, that's a better plan then taking a couple of BJJ classes that you hate and get nothing out of.

I took BJJ for a little while and it just wasn't my cup of tea.  I dreaded going to class and to be honest because of that I didn't get much out of it.  Now I practice Isshinryu Karate.  We incorporate some limited groundwork and standing judo throws and I enjoy doing that stuff now, because I enjoy my art in general, I enjoy the dojo I practice at, and I enjoy the people I practice with.  I feel like I get more out of class because I love going now.  I want to practice, and I feel comfortable doing so.

So my suggestion would be to first find out what schools are in your area and then try classes in different martial arts.  You might love one of them, you might loathe another.  Pick the one you enjoy, not the one that considered the most effective, because it will never be effective if you don't train it and don't retain the material.  As for a martial art that isn't "too hard," everything is hard when you start.  A good teacher should make it less hard (as others in this thread have mentioned), but if you really enjoy something then it doesn't feel "too hard."  It just feels like a challenge that you want to overcome and you'll be willing to work to overcome it.


----------



## oftheherd1

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Thank you. And tell that to those who say things like Aikido is easier for women because they don't require as much strength etc.



I think some people look at Aikido demonstrations and decide it must be easier due to the way they perceive it is employed.  They make that assessment never having darkened an Aikido dojo's door.

That said, any martial art may seem difficult at any part of the study.  You will likely think so when you begin studying.  Later it may seem more fun and easy, but you may reach plateaus and think to yourself you aren't learning anything any more.  But when you stay with it suddenly one day, without warning, you realize you have gotten past that plateau and have learned more and it is easy again.  At least that is how it was for me in TKD, but not so much in Hapkido.


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## nino.ciani

Go learn CQC with a competent instructor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drop bear

Druid11 said:


> While there are martial arts that are better and worse for self-defense, my suggestion is to pick a martial art you actually like and not to worry so much about which is most "effective".  If you don't enjoy practicing it eventually you'll quit regardless of how effective the art is.  You also won't want to push yourself to get better if you don't enjoy it.  There is no magic martial art that will make you invincible.  Aikido isn't probably the most practical martial on the planet, for example.  But if you really like practicing Aikido and work hard at getting better, that's a better plan then taking a couple of BJJ classes that you hate and get nothing out of.
> 
> I took BJJ for a little while and it just wasn't my cup of tea.  I dreaded going to class and to be honest because of that I didn't get much out of it.  Now I practice Isshinryu Karate.  We incorporate some limited groundwork and standing judo throws and I enjoy doing that stuff now, because I enjoy my art in general, I enjoy the dojo I practice at, and I enjoy the people I practice with.  I feel like I get more out of class because I love going now.  I want to practice, and I feel comfortable doing so.
> 
> So my suggestion would be to first find out what schools are in your area and then try classes in different martial arts.  You might love one of them, you might loathe another.  Pick the one you enjoy, not the one that considered the most effective, because it will never be effective if you don't train it and don't retain the material.  As for a martial art that isn't "too hard," everything is hard when you start.  A good teacher should make it less hard (as others in this thread have mentioned), but if you really enjoy something then it doesn't feel "too hard."  It just feels like a challenge that you want to overcome and you'll be willing to work to overcome it.



Sort of. There is an element of pushing through hardship that is required required to be a competant fighter.


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## Druid11

drop bear said:


> Sort of. There is an element of pushing through hardship that is required required to be a competant fighter.


Sure, but generally if you loathe something it's hard to push through that hardship. I think the general consensus here is the style matters less than how you train.  You will never train an art you hate practicing as hard as you train one you really enjoy. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## drop bear

Druid11 said:


> Sure, but generally if you loathe something it's hard to push through that hardship. I think the general consensus here is the style matters less than how you train.  You will never train an art you hate practicing as hard as you train one you really enjoy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



My view is you do what you need to do to get the result. We are suggesting this as a skill set for a job. 

You will train in an art you hate if you need to get good at it. People do it all the time. 

Oh and if there is a fitness test for the cops that involves running. And you don't like running. Go do swimming instead. Same thing really.


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## Druid11

drop bear said:


> My view is you do what you need to do to get the result. We are suggesting this as a skill set for a job.
> 
> You will train in an art you hate if you need to get good at it. People do it all the time.
> 
> Oh and if there is a fitness test for the cops that involves running. And you don't like running. Go do swimming instead. Same thing really.



I realize that it's because the OP wants to work in law enforcement.  That being said, assuming that martial arts is something that she wants to continue long term and not just for a short period, I think the advice to find one you like to practice rather than one you simply do because you think it will be the most effective is a sound one.  You can push through you dislike for anything in the short term, but long term I generally find people don't work as hard at things they don't like.  If you loathe your job do you do try as hard as the person who loves it? Probably not. Do people do passable jobs doing things they hate, sure. But I doubt they rarely truly excel at them. I'm not saying the OP should go out and pick Tai Chi and think she's going to be able to defend herself, but assuming there's good quality instruction for several different martial arts in her area, I think she will do better picking one she enjoys doing.  

So if the person really hates running and wants to be a LEO they will train to run just as much as they need to pass the test and probably not much more.  And they could very well use swimming to help them get ready for running.  If they are an excellent swimmer that trains every day, they probably have the cardiovascular endurance to run fairly well with minimal training.  By the same vein, if the OP trains a martial art they love they could probably use it to help them be effective in the martial arts skills their agency reaches them.  If they only train in a martial art they hate, they will probably train it to up to the point of being passable.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Hi, that's actually good to know. Do you mind telling me why the hips are your weapons?



Hips are where we wear a duty belt and it's filled with weapons and other gear. Falling on it hurts.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

JR 137 said:


> Weapons, ie gun, pepper spray, etc. are ON the hips of law enforcement officers. They hang off the belt.


 
And falling on them hurts.


----------



## JR 137

Bill Mattocks said:


> And falling on them hurts.


I’d assume more so than falling on your keys, which really sucks.


----------



## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> I’d assume more so than falling on your keys, which really sucks.



You try to keep crap off your back. Which gets jabby.



 

They do vests now which make that a bit easier. 

I have fallen on my back and been jammed by a radio or something. It sucks but I could take one or two. 

If it was happening 10 times a night it would be bad. But then I probably have bigger issues.


----------



## Wsc2020

I've worked in various correctional settings for over 20 years. I have found using good verbal skills and in general being professional will keep you out of the vast majority of confrontations both inside a prison and on the street.

However, when I have ran into trouble the common theme seems to be a lack of ability to reason with the individual due to alcohol, drugs or a psychiatric crisis.

A correctional setting is very different than a street setting as everything you do is under "Color of Authority" subject to review and potentially court. You are supposed to gain control while harming as little as possible.

That being said, being on the wrong end of a size mismatch against an aggressive opponant intent to do you harm gives some leeway in the "fear for your life" category.

My wife is 100 lbs and about 4'11.

I would want her to avoid a fight if at all possible. It's unrealistic to expect her to square off with a large opponent and box, muay Thai or karate strike her way to victory.

The truth is many self defense techniques often fail against larger stronger opponents.

My father taught me when backed against a wall against a larger person trying to harm me, look for a weapon. And in lieu of that fight as dirty as possible.

Eye Gouge, box the ears, punch the throat, kick the groin, kick the knee. Even bite. Use surprise if you can.

It's not a cage match. You just need to stop the attack or escape.

Any training is better than no training.

And sometimes doing anything is better than doing nothing even if maybe it won't work.

But there's no training that completely makes up for the inherant disadvantage of being small.

I prefer American Kenpo but the individual instructor and the individual student are as important as the art studied.

Maybe a 9 year old 4 ft tall black belt will  defeat a healthy 6 ft tall 200 lb man but my money's not on it.

But youngster's best chance is to scream then a kick to the groin and run, not trying bjj/muay thai.

And as far as the often heard "if it doesn't work in sparring or in an MMA match it is ineffective" groupthink I see a lot lately I say this:

If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?

The goal of combat oriented Martial Arts is to stop a fight. Using that as a standard of effectiveness, any MMA match that goes the distance, everything used in that match was technically "ineffective". When there is a knock out, that was "effective".

Apparently, If it doesn't train in resistance it isn't "real". But having rules and fighting with a goal of not injuring your opponent is "real".

The reality is a punch, kick, knee or elbow...choke hold or throw doesn't care what it's name is, who taught it or the name of who did it.

And it either works or it doesn't.

Sorry /rant off


----------



## Tez3

Wsc2020 said:


> If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?




I do agree with you but not this bit, yes the fanboys go on about MMA in the way you describe but the reality is that it's what it says it is, a variety of martial arts for use in a competition. There's also the reality that just because fighters don't use a technique in a competition is doesn't mean they don't know how to do them ( think about it, if they didn't know the illegal techniques how would they know not to use them in a competition? ) seriously though, we know how to turn all the legal techniques into 'competition' illegal ones and them some.


----------



## drop bear

Wsc2020 said:


> And as far as the often heard "if it doesn't work in sparring or in an MMA match it is ineffective" groupthink I see a lot lately I say this:
> 
> If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?
> 
> The goal of combat oriented Martial Arts is to stop a fight. Using that as a standard of effectiveness, any MMA match that goes the distance, everything used in that match was technically "ineffective". When there is a knock out, that was "effective".
> 
> Apparently, If it doesn't train in resistance it isn't "real". But having rules and fighting with a goal of not injuring your opponent is "real".
> 
> The reality is a punch, kick, knee or elbow...choke hold or throw doesn't care what it's name is, who taught it or the name of who did it.
> 
> And it either works or it doesn't.
> 
> Sorry /rant off



It works and it doesn't work at the same time. Until it is either observed to work or not work.


----------



## Wsc2020

Tez3 said:


> I do agree with you but not this bit, yes the fanboys go on about MMA in the way you describe but the reality is that it's what it says it is, a variety of martial arts for use in a competition. There's also the reality that just because fighters don't use a technique in a competition is doesn't mean they don't know how to do them ( think about it, if they didn't know the illegal techniques how would they know not to use them in a competition? ) seriously though, we know how to turn all the legal techniques into 'competition' illegal ones and them some.



What I'm commenting on specifically there is the difficulty in demonstrating, for example, a technique where one distracts then strikes the temple, assumes you would be dazed and follows up with a punch to the throat a throw to the ground and face stomp. 

I'm not volunteering to have it demonstrated on me .

And what it's called doesn't matter. 

Sometimes, theory is all we can go by or...we just don't train to maim and give up on it.  

That being said real sparring, conditioning and learning what it feels like to be hit are really important. 

But I personally believe we resort to training in a high stress situation .There's a story we were told on the range about an officer that had to fire his weapon in a real life situation. 

He fired two shots and holstered. Muscle memory .That's how they trained at the range year after year.

If you constantly train to fight with the most effective and vulnerable tragets as off limits, I'm not so sure it's that easy to suddenly turn on the "fight dirty" switch. 

I'll also concede opponents can potentially be pissed off or drunk friends or family that we might not want to injure, so having the ability to fight in a non nasty fashion is also very useful. 

And as always, results may vary according to the individual.


----------



## drop bear

Wsc2020 said:


> What I'm commenting on specifically there is the difficulty in demonstrating, for example, a technique where one distracts then strikes the temple, assumes you would be dazed and follows up with a punch to the throat a throw to the ground and face stomp.



Can this person throw a basic punch?

Does he have the basic skillset that would let him survive a MMA fight?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Wsc2020 said:


> If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?


I've tried a bunch of martial arts and seen a lot more. Don't think I've ever encountered one where 90% of the art would be illegal in all forms of sparring or competition. I've personally sparred with weapons, groin strikes, knees, and hair pulling as well as the usual throws, chokes, joint locks, and punching/kicking to 95% of the body. I've watched competitions where elbows and head butts and stomps to the head of a downed opponent were legal. Maybe there's an art out there I haven't found which is 90% eye gouges and biting?



Wsc2020 said:


> What I'm commenting on specifically there is the difficulty in demonstrating, for example, a technique where one distracts then *strikes the temple, assumes you would be dazed* and follows up with a punch to the throat a throw to the ground and face stomp.



Kind of a dangerous assumption there unless you have the experience to know that you can reliably hit a non-cooperating opponent in the temple and daze him. Other than getting in a bunch of real fights, your best bet to get that kind of experience would be training in an art which includes full contact sparring.



Wsc2020 said:


> If you constantly train to fight with the most effective and vulnerable tragets as off limits, I'm not so sure it's that easy to suddenly turn on the "fight dirty" switch.



The problem is that any kind of training for truly damaging techniques has to have some sort of flaw or else you are just actually injuring your training partners.

Let's say you practice an art which relies heavily on attacks to the throat, groin, and eyes. Do you drill your techniques by actually punching them full power in their unprotected throat, actually kicking them full power in their unprotected groin, actually gouging their eyes out? Probably not.

You have to modify things somehow. Perhaps you pull your blows. Perhaps you aim slightly off target. Perhaps you equip your partner with protective gear.

All of these possibilities run into potential problems in a real fight. If you've been pulling your strikes short of real contact, are you going to be able to turn on the "full contact" switch in a fight? If you've been aiming off target, are you going to be able to turn on the "accurate targeting" switch? If you've been equipping your partner with heavy duty protective gear, do you know how an opponent will actually react without it?

All of this isn't even addressing the issue of defense. If you can't stop an opponent from hitting you in the face or recover from being hit, you'll probably never get to unleash your devastating groin kick/ throat punch/eye gouge combo.

My personal opinion is that if you can develop the skills to strike with power and accuracy to the 90% of the potential targets on a resisting opponent while preventing them from doing the same to you, then it is relatively simple to add a few supplemental drills to remind you of targeting the remaining 10%. If you can develop the grappling skills to control an opponent who is trying to do the same to you, then it is pretty easy to learn the opportunities for "dirty fighting" moves like biting or eye gouging.

On the other hand, if you can't do those things, then your odds of effectively kicking someone in the groin or punching them in the throat go way, way down. You need a delivery mechanism.


----------



## Tez3

Wsc2020 said:


> If you constantly train to fight with the most effective and vulnerable tragets as off limits, I'm not so sure it's that easy to suddenly turn on the "fight dirty" switch




You assume that MMA people don't also train for self defence.  Many do, many also train a TMA as well. My students have no difficulty switching from comp. rules to dirty fighting and  to killing people.  To be honest I never have either. There isn't a switch in the head that you flick and you change from one to the other. the killing people bit isn't usual admittedly in martial arts clubs but we are a military one with only a couple of civvies.


----------



## Wsc2020

Maybe can throw a good punch maybe not. Training is a spectrum. Every fight is unique. But for example regarding Kenpo...I think ultimately it teaches, if it's quality Kenpo taught by a decent instructor, to chain together combinations of strikes and kicks and basic body mechanics that put you in a good position to end a fight.

I'm older now. But when I was younger I was prone to fighting. Fights in school, fights in the Army. Fights in bars. Fights when drinking. Fights sober.

So regarding said punch. First. Size up opponent. If opponent takes up a fighting stance I'm going to react differently than if drunk cowboy throws a roundhouse.

But I think there's a couple points being missed. Regarding the op.

My 100 lb 4'11 wife isn't going to box, muay thai or even bjj herself to a victory against a 250 lb linebacker.

Weight classes exist for a reason. Fact: you need to be a certain general weight to even generate enough power to be able to knock someone out.

When disadvantaged by size and strength there's no choice but to fight as dirty as possible. You have two opportunities, in my opinion. Strike fast and first and hope for surprise and that you land something effective. Or if that fails, rely on conditioning and avoidance and hope bad guy gets tired and hope you can escape, help comes or because bad guy is tired you are able to apply a fight ending strike or kick.

Regarding theory vs. knowing what works it's such an interesting subject.

I know from personal experience the following are able to end a "street" fight because I've personally been on one end or the other of the following:

Kick to the groin. Fight over

Right cross to the nose with blood 
explosion. (Ended 2 fights)

Rear naked choke with legs trapped, fight ended.  (I passed out, lost bladder control but I recovered for a "round 2" and ended fight with punch, opponent ran he thought I had risen from the dead I think.)

After escaping a headlock by clawing ribs as a distraction, I got to feet, got opponant in headlock and did several uppercuts to face. Ended fight.

Larger opponent picked up a post hole digger and chased me. (Yes, I ran. Ended fight)

Right hook to side of head. Ko
Spinning back fist to head. End of fight. 

I personally don't care for aikido but one time I actually used it in a fight, it was because stupid angry roommate in the Army kept bull rushing me and I just redirected him into the locker, then a wall, then another wall. I was shocked that worked.  But bull rushing bent over with head down is a stupid move. He felt stupid and gave up. So ko'd by embarrassment? 

Over the course of my life I've dabbled a little in boxing, kick boxing, aikido, Kenpo and Okinawan Karate.

If I'm in a fight I'm not any of those things. I'm just me. Whatever comes out, comes out. Ideally without thought. I'm not a style 

More importantly, if I only restrict my learning to what I know for certain works, it really limits my training unless I go start a lot of fights for no reason.

So what I think instead is answering the question "is there a reasonable assumption that all, any or part of this technique work in any, most or some situations?"

Can I learn without being an idiot?

I've learned probably three major lessons over the years: 

If I lose my feet I'm potentially in big trouble as I'm not good on the ground.

I'd much prefer to not fight a trained opponent. Now that I'm older I'd prefer not to fight at all.

I'm short. If I want to win against a larger opponent, I must fight fiercly, without fear and accept I might get my butt kicked.

But at my age I know what I know. So it's not all theory.

I apologize for such a long post. I'm not that interesting.


----------



## Wsc2020

Tez3 said:


> You assume that MMA people don't also train for self defence.  Many do, many also train a TMA as well. My students have no difficulty switching from comp. rules to dirty fighting and  to killing people.  To be honest I never have either. There isn't a switch in the head that you flick and you change from one to the other. the killing people bit isn't usual admittedly in martial arts clubs but we are a military one with only a couple of civvies.



I guess I'm just specifically directing my rant to the bjj cult that exists, especially at my work and these guys and some others I see online, trash TMA, and many other styles/schools. It seems to be a growing phenomenon.


----------



## Tez3

Wsc2020 said:


> I guess I'm just specifically directing my rant to the bjj cult that exists, especially at my work and these guys and some others I see online, trash TMA, and many other styles/schools. It seems to be a growing phenomenon.




It happens, I've seen similar fashions over the years, at one point it was kick boxing, everything else was 'rubbish' of course, it's also been 'kung Fu' in Bruce Lee's time, everything else was 'rubbish'. Most times it's not people who train at anything that hold these opinions, it's fan boys. 
I'm retired now so work colleagues don't bother me anymore, though I had great one, a couple were Gurkhas, my shift partner was, people tend not to boast about anything 'martial' to them.  Another was an ex Para, another ex infantry, not a lot you can teach them about any sort of fighting so basically BJJ to them is for softies. 

Thought you' d like this. Para recruits training. bald guy reffing is Cpl. Sandy Geddes ( boxer, kick boxer, MMA fighter) They aren't testing skills, you don't need any, it's all about bravery and aggression.  Just shrug off fan boys comments, like certain political believers you will never educate them about martial arts.


----------



## Wsc2020

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've tried a bunch of martial arts and seen a lot more. Don't think I've ever encountered one where 90% of the art would be illegal in all forms of sparring or competition. I've personally sparred with weapons, groin strikes, knees, and hair pulling as well as the usual throws, chokes, joint locks, and punching/kicking to 95% of the body. I've watched competitions where elbows and head butts and stomps to the head of a downed opponent were legal. Maybe there's an art out there I haven't found which is 90% eye gouges and biting?
> 
> Kind of a dangerous assumption there unless you have the experience to know that you can reliably hit a non-cooperating opponent in the temple and daze him. Other than getting in a bunch of real fights, your best bet to get that kind of experience would be training in an art which includes full contact sparring.
> 
> The problem is that any kind of training for truly damaging techniques has to have some sort of flaw or else you are just actually injuring your training partners.
> 
> Let's say you practice an art which relies heavily on attacks to the throat, groin, and eyes. Do you drill your techniques by actually punching them full power in their unprotected throat, actually kicking them full power in their unprotected groin, actually gouging their eyes out? Probably not.
> 
> You have to modify things somehow. Perhaps you pull your blows. Perhaps you aim slightly off target. Perhaps you equip your partner with protective gear.
> 
> All of these possibilities run into potential problems in a real fight. If you've been pulling your strikes short of real contact, are you going to be able to turn on the "full contact" switch in a fight? If you've been aiming off target, are you going to be able to turn on the "accurate targeting" switch? If you've been equipping your partner with heavy duty protective gear, do you know how an opponent will actually react without it?
> 
> All of this isn't even addressing the issue of defense. If you can't stop an opponent from hitting you in the face or recover from being hit, you'll probably never get to unleash your devastating groin kick/ throat punch/eye gouge combo.
> 
> My personal opinion is that if you can develop the skills to strike with power and accuracy to the 90% of the potential targets on a resisting opponent while preventing them from doing the same to you, then it is relatively simple to add a few supplemental drills to remind you of targeting the remaining 10%. If you can develop the grappling skills to control an opponent who is trying to do the same to you, then it is pretty easy to learn the opportunities for "dirty fighting" moves like biting or eye gouging.
> 
> On the other hand, if you can't do those things, then your odds of effectively kicking someone in the groin or punching them in the throat go way, way down. You need a delivery mechanism.



Just going off Kenpo for example (and there's some very bad Kenpo out there I'll admit it), if a centerline is open I think literally every primary target of choice for self defense is illegal in UFC. It's not just eye gouging and biting right? Throat strikes. Breaks. Kneeing or head kicking a "grounded" opponent. Groin... Etc

Anyway. There's Fighting. All kinds of things are fighting. School fights, bar fights, slappy fights, UFC fights, Boxing matches, hockey fights... 

A self defense survival fight? That's something you can spend your entire lifetime training for and never need it. 

I guess my argument (and I prefer discussion to debate) would be something like.

I think this technique is effective .

TMA trashing fanboy: I want to see it at full speed with full contact and power or I won't believe it works. 

Me: are you volunteering to be the "bad guy" for the demo?

You'll get no argument from me about the merits of sparring. But I view sparring as very non style specific, there's only so many ways to punch and kick. When I spar it's basically kick boxing. But for conditioning, mindset, and learning distance and striking... I like it. I wish more people did it.

Of course you risk brain injury and concussion. I think that's why a lot of schools have moved away from it. It's liability. 

The Kenpo school I went to back in Texas back in the day, we full contact sparred every week.

One problem I have with grappling is this...

I prefer to keep distance. If I go to the ground someone took me there. I'm going to try like heck to get back up. I know my strengths.

And someone smaller, in my opinion should never surrender distance and willingly engage in grappling. It's very hard to run away.

The third thing is in grappling, and I'm not the only one to ever point this out...but like even in my personal experience when I was being choked out. I had a friend there watching. He yelled and yelled at the dude to let me go. It would have been very easy for him to kick my attacker in the head or bash him with a rock. But no... Pacifist friend lol

There's always a crowd around .You grapple you lose all focus of your surroundings, what's behind you and other threats. Your opponents buddy is very likely to come up behind you and knock you out, especially if you're winning. If you find out your opponent is more skilled than you it's very hard to retreat.

Look it has it's place. But no art is perfect. But I argued it before and I'll mention it again.

The loser of a UFC fight. Were his techniques effective? 

Some people say Karate is a joke. Kenpo is ineffective. Kung Fu is a worthless fake waste of time. Only UFC MMA BJJ or Muay Thai is worthwhile. 

But really... 

It's always assuming "all things being equal". 

Reality is, all things are never equal. The outcome of any fight is determined by such a crazy set of veriables unique to each fight. I'm not sure "Fighting Style” is the top of the list. 

Size, Fighting Spirit (and the mental ability to actually harm another human), Strength and conditioning, striking skill, intelligence, instinct and experience. It all matters. Add in dumb luck and the opponent and the setting. ... It's a lottery. 

Personally I choose to carry where I'm allowed to. Someone comes at me all crazy MMA style bigger than me if I have time I'm pulling my weapon. 

I have no idea what my point was .


----------



## Wsc2020

Tez3 said:


> It happens, I've seen similar fashions over the years, at one point it was kick boxing, everything else was 'rubbish' of course, it's also been 'kung Fu' in Bruce Lee's time, everything else was 'rubbish'. Most times it's not people who train at anything that hold these opinions, it's fan boys.
> I'm retired now so work colleagues don't bother me anymore, though I had great one, a couple were Gurkhas, my shift partner was, people tend not to boast about anything 'martial' to them.  Another was an ex Para, another ex infantry, not a lot you can teach them about any sort of fighting so basically BJJ to them is for softies.
> 
> Thought you' d like this. Para recruits training. bald guy reffing is Cpl. Sandy Geddes ( boxer, kick boxer, MMA fighter) They aren't testing skills, you don't need any, it's all about bravery and aggression.  Just shrug off fan boys comments, like certain political believers you will never educate them about martial arts.



Yep. I sometimes feel very much like a "get off my (martial arts) lawn" old man. Heh heh.


----------



## lklawson

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe there's an art out there I haven't found which is 90% eye gouges and biting?


Kino mutai?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> Kino mutai?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I’ve never been clear on whether that’s an actual stand-alone art or just a subset of other arts, the way “chin na” is a part of many CMAs.


----------



## lklawson

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’ve never been clear on whether that’s an actual stand-alone art or just a subset of other arts, the way “chin na” is a part of many CMAs.


Me neither.  I was just having fun with trying to find something.  This is the closest I came.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Langenschwert

@Whispered_Freedom

There's no such thing as becoming a good martial artist with minimal effort. You must train hard to be good. No magic, just training.

However, there are some arts which you might want to look into:

First off, boxing. Learning movement, range, and timing in addition to making the most of what a small frame can deliver impact-wise is always good. Plus, the limited number of tools used makes for the best ratio of time in to fighting effectiveness I can think of. It's also really fun.

Secondly, MMA training. You'll learn a little bit of everything, so very little an unarmed person can throw at you will be a surprise. By being exposed to fairly wide range of disciplines, you'll be able to figure out what you're naturally good at too.

Lastly, I'll chime in for one of the arts i train in, Judo. Learning how to manipulate someone via their clothing is pretty handy. The ground work is similar to, but different than BJJ. In judo, ground fighting has a time limit, so it tends to be more focused on what works quickly. It's less of a chess match, in other words, and more of a scramble. Not do discredit BJJ or Catch Wrestling, since the ground game of both those arts is much broader than what the average judoka learns. The judo ground game is perfectly effective and functional for most purposes though. Also, judo's use of pins might be useful for restraining of recalcitrant clients. 

Just my two cents.


----------



## KenpoMaster805

I recommend american kenpo karate


----------



## Headhunter

KenpoMaster805 said:


> I recommend american kenpo karate


Big surprise


----------



## Gweilo

I reckon that was an ad lol


----------



## Gaucho

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.
> 
> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers



Judo + eye-jabs + kicks to the crotch (and to the throat when the attacker is bent over.)  Military-type jiu-jitsu would cover it. You don't need a syllabus of 80 techniques, you need to be good at a very few techniques.  Judo skills are very useful, and turning sport judo into combat judo is easy.  In fact, combat judo is the easier of the two: when you throw an attacker, you just release him and let him hit the floor at full speed.


----------



## Gaucho

Whispered_Freedom said:


> Self defence and gaining a variety of practical, fighting skills. I like the idea of kicking but definitely know I need to work on my punching skills



A man's legs are on average about twice as strong as his arms.  A woman's legs are about four times as strong as her arms.  Put another way, women's arms are relatively weak compared to a man's arms, when compared to leg strength in each gender.  Women should kick, eye-jab, and run if possible.  We all should.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gaucho said:


> A man's legs are on average about twice as strong as his arms.  A woman's legs are about four times as strong as her arms.  Put another way, women's arms are relatively weak compared to a man's arms, when compared to leg strength in each gender.  Women should kick, eye-jab, and run if possible.  We all should.


I've heard various numbers for that, for both genders. I think it's obvious that legs are stronger than arms, but do you have any sources actually suggesting the 2-1 ratio for men and 4-1 ratio for women?


----------



## jobo

Gaucho said:


> A man's legs are on average about twice as strong as his arms.  A woman's legs are about four times as strong as her arms.  Put another way, women's arms are relatively weak compared to a man's arms, when compared to leg strength in each gender.  Women should kick, eye-jab, and run if possible.  We all should.


we have had this on average argument before, with out anyone actual coming up with the average then claims exists.

but a by definition a trained ma is not average, an " average " women who trains can easily double her strength,whic,  may well close the gap with our a average male or even exceed it and then with have the multiplycation effect of sound technique ,but that's the same predicament that small skinny males face


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> we have had this on average argument before, with out anyone actual coming up with the average then claims exists.
> 
> but a by definition a trained ma is not average, an " average " women who trains can easily double her strength,whic,  may well close the gap with our a average male or even exceed it and then with have the multiplycation effect of sound technique ,but that's the same predicament that small skinny males face


Beyond that, not even worrying about whether or not the person in question is "average", as far as i know there's no stats actually stating what the ratio for _any_ woman/man is, average or not.


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> we have had this on average argument before, with out anyone actual coming up with the average then claims exists.
> 
> but a by definition a trained ma is not average, an " average " women who trains can easily double her strength,whic,  may well close the gap with our a average male or even exceed it and then with have the multiplycation effect of sound technique ,but that's the same predicament that small skinny males face


That may be true, but she would no longer be an average woman. She would be an exception to normal.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> That may be true, but she would no longer be an average woman. She would be an exception to normal.


but all ma are\ should be an exception to the norm or why do it ?  she would however continue to be average in  other respects, so still ( nearly ) average


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## Fedora

Whispered_Freedom said:


> I hear Aikido is good for women because it doesn't require as much strength.
> 
> I hear Jiu Jitsu is good for short-statured people.
> 
> But I'm basically looking for a martial art that teaches self defence skills and all round skills but without finding it too hard and demanding(especially for someone inexperienced). This might be asking for too much but if such thing exists, please let me know. Cheers



Basically, I don't think what you're looking for exists. That's why they make knives and guns.

If, however, you wished to learn how a small woman, given a little effort and commitment, might defend herself, I'd recommend you look towards martial arts indigenous to smaller adults. Indonesian people, for example, or perhaps Filipino.

As another possibility, I've heard (but have no personal knowledge) that the Machado Brothers BJJ schools sometimes offer a short course on street defense. That might be something for you, if a school is convenient. The school should not be too far away, as you will still have to practice what you learned.

Sidebar on aikido: I think it's best to think of aikido as the unarmed equivalent of a J-frame revolver. In the proper hands either one can be indistinguishable from Harry Potter's wand, but they are the tools of experts and neither should be a padwan's first choice.


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> but all ma are\ should be an exception to the norm or why do it ?  she would however continue to be average in  other respects, so still ( nearly ) average



Anecdotally I would suggest not even close. 

The average male fighting ability would be pretty low.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Anecdotally I would suggest not even close.
> 
> The average male fighting ability would be pretty low.


I did say should, the problem with a lot of ma clubs, if they attract people who can't fight to even a moderate standard in the first place and then because of lack luster physical training, iffy techniques and a lack of actual competition they continue to be below a reasonable average level of ability despite many years of training. this despite the fact they develop a level of delusion about their actual abilities As seen not infrequently on posts here

it really doesn't have to be that way, but yes I accept it is


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## skyeisonfire

Martial D said:


> Realistically, and I know this might not be a popular opinion here, but for a smaller woman only BJJ will give you a real chance against someone both bigger and stronger than you.



Learning a good mix of everything and conditioning yourself i.e. isometric exercises or overall strength conditioning will not hurt in any situation.  I've seen smaller women than me could lift double my weight, so the potential is there for any women who applies focus, dedication, and education with her training to develop skills.


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## Martial D

skyeisonfire said:


> Learning a good mix of everything and conditioning yourself i.e. isometric exercises or overall strength conditioning will not hurt in any situation.  I've seen smaller women than me could lift double my weight, so the potential is there for any women who applies focus, dedication, and education with her training to develop skills.


Sure, being fit always helps. Yet, even if you are in peak physical shape at 120 pounds give or take...man or woman for that matter..you are fairly screwed if a 200 pound plus man gets ahold of you and you don't know how to grapple...and even then...

Size and strength are huge advantages across the board.


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## skyeisonfire

Martial D said:


> Sure, being fit always helps. Yet, even if you are in peak physical shape at 120 pounds give or take...man or woman for that matter..you are fairly screwed if a 200 pound plus man gets ahold of you and you don't know how to grapple...and even then...
> 
> Size and strength are huge advantages across the board.



That's why you avoid it in the first place


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## jobo

Martial D said:


> Sure, being fit always helps. Yet, even if you are in peak physical shape at 120 pounds give or take...man or woman for that matter..you are fairly screwed if a 200 pound plus man gets ahold of you and you don't know how to grapple...and even then...
> 
> Size and strength are huge advantages across the board.


size ( either weight or height it both) and strength don't necessarily go together, unless your big person actively trains strength or has strength job,  in a ring contest you can make a reasonable assumption that not only is he or she a foot taller, 60 lbs heavier they also train strength to some extent, in the wider world that far from true

they are far more likely to just be bigger but have less strength than you, if you do train and they dont.  being big with out the strength to move that weight makes you slow across the ground and to turn, how fight unfolds then us dependent on not letting them use the weight against you, if you end up on the floor pinned by their weight, your in trouble, whilst in motion you have the advantage of both speed and strengh

in myh early 20s I got into a lot of fights with people who were substantially heavier than I, nearly every one was heavier me, I was 150 lbs soaking wet, this seldom seemed to matter much, in fact being tall and supper skinny seemed to be the cause if most if these fights, people making the mistake of thinking they could push me about, particularly if they couldn't see my Bruce lee type figure under my leather jacket,


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## Deleted member 39746

Martial D said:


> Sure, being fit always helps. Yet, even if you are in peak physical shape at 120 pounds give or take...man or woman for that matter..you are fairly screwed if a 200 pound plus man gets ahold of you and you don't know how to grapple...and even then...
> 
> Size and strength are huge advantages across the board.



Isnt that a  effort for anyone in grappling?   if someone who is heavier and/or stronger than you and taller than you gets into grappling range?      At least if you do striking if you clock them with enough force on the jaw you can induce a concussion on them, so long as you can generate enough force to get said effect and hit their jaw. 


I just know i think thats something some pretty decent grapples struggle with, especially if they just know  enough to sufficiently defend themselves in it.     Of course its not a perfect world and fighting is a struggle  anyway and you can loose even if you have the upper hand and all that.  

More directed at your BJJ giving the best chance to a small woman post.     Obviously a trained fit female could probably whoop a unfit and untrained male.   Actually i think they would, but always a chance to loose if you fight anyone its the nature of it. 

Actually someone answer this question for me, is body building the most common strength athletes? I swear that type of exercising has become a hobby for a lot of people.  Just more probability wise of what you would end up fighting on averages, or dealing with.  Preparing for your average clientele you will deal with is probably the only thing you can do.  

Anyway kind of rambly i hope i made some decent points in that.


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## skyeisonfire

Rat said:


> Isnt that a  effort for anyone in grappling?   if someone who is heavier and/or stronger than you and taller than you gets into grappling range?      At least if you do striking if you clock them with enough force on the jaw you can induce a concussion on them, so long as you can generate enough force to get said effect and hit their jaw.
> 
> 
> I just know i think thats something some pretty decent grapples struggle with, especially if they just know  enough to sufficiently defend themselves in it.     Of course its not a perfect world and fighting is a struggle  anyway and you can loose even if you have the upper hand and all that.
> 
> More directed at your BJJ giving the best chance to a small woman post.     Obviously a trained fit female could probably whoop a unfit and untrained male.   Actually i think they would, but always a chance to loose if you fight anyone its the nature of it.
> 
> Actually someone answer this question for me, is body building the most common strength athletes? I swear that type of exercising has become a hobby for a lot of people.  Just more probability wise of what you would end up fighting on averages, or dealing with.  Preparing for your average clientele you will deal with is probably the only thing you can do.
> 
> Anyway kind of rambly i hope i made some decent points in that.



I agreed..I don't care about the odds.. if I know what I'm facing..I'll be smart and avoid at all costs, however, if the situation is beyond my control, at least I'm confident enough to know I have a fighting chance to at least get away due to my accumulated training and fitness level.  As always, it's about learning the environment and using the common sense approach.


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## jobo

Rat said:


> Isnt that a  effort for anyone in grappling?   if someone who is heavier and/or stronger than you and taller than you gets into grappling range?      At least if you do striking if you clock them with enough force on the jaw you can induce a concussion on them, so long as you can generate enough force to get said effect and hit their jaw.
> 
> 
> I just know i think thats something some pretty decent grapples struggle with, especially if they just know  enough to sufficiently defend themselves in it.     Of course its not a perfect world and fighting is a struggle  anyway and you can loose even if you have the upper hand and all that.
> 
> More directed at your BJJ giving the best chance to a small woman post.     Obviously a trained fit female could probably whoop a unfit and untrained male.   Actually i think they would, but always a chance to loose if you fight anyone its the nature of it.
> 
> Actually someone answer this question for me, is body building the most common strength athletes? I swear that type of exercising has become a hobby for a lot of people.  Just more probability wise of what you would end up fighting on averages, or dealing with.  Preparing for your average clientele you will deal with is probably the only thing you can do.
> 
> Anyway kind of rambly i hope i made some decent points in that.


it's a fine line, body builder may not be athletes by any reasonable definition if the word athlete, they will undoutably be fairly strong, but turning that in to athletic movement is another matter, id much sooner go up against a body builder, than a power athlete who lifts who lifts  weights


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## skyeisonfire

Rat said:


> Isnt that a  effort for anyone in grappling?   if someone who is heavier and/or stronger than you and taller than you gets into grappling range?      At least if you do striking if you clock them with enough force on the jaw you can induce a concussion on them, so long as you can generate enough force to get said effect and hit their jaw.
> 
> 
> I just know i think thats something some pretty decent grapples struggle with, especially if they just know  enough to sufficiently defend themselves in it.     Of course its not a perfect world and fighting is a struggle  anyway and you can loose even if you have the upper hand and all that.
> 
> More directed at your BJJ giving the best chance to a small woman post.     Obviously a trained fit female could probably whoop a unfit and untrained male.   Actually i think they would, but always a chance to loose if you fight anyone its the nature of it.
> 
> Actually someone answer this question for me, is body building the most common strength athletes? I swear that type of exercising has become a hobby for a lot of people.  Just more probability wise of what you would end up fighting on averages, or dealing with.  Preparing for your average clientele you will deal with is probably the only thing you can do.
> 
> Anyway kind of rambly i hope i made some decent points in that.





jobo said:


> it's a fine line, body builder may not be athletes by any reasonable definition if the word athlete, they will undoutably be very strong, but turning that in to athletic movement is another matter, id much sooner go up against a body builder, than a power athlete who lifts who lifts  weights



That's why I train specific movements in the gym that is strictly geared towards MA.  People look at me wierd in the gym. Training the muscle groups that I would use for fighting as well as specific exercises that works with speed and power.

But for the OP, I'd repeat what others had said.  It takes hard work and dedication.  There's no quick MA light version to get you by the seat of your pants McDogo thing that will fix a bad situation if it involves any kind of street confrontation.  Some awareness can be helpful but..


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## jobo

skyeisonfire said:


> That's why I train specific movements in the gym that is strictly geared towards MA.  People look at me wierd in the gym. Training the muscle groups that I would use for fighting as well as specific exercises that works with speed and power.


yes your very correct, strength isnt just about the capacity if any given muscles, its about the inter co ordination of muscles in what ever movement pattern your doing,, the preferable of body builders to try and isolate muscles in an exercise, does little to build this co ordination, , 
 I've seen this many times, with friends, they are massively strong, but ask them to push a heavy motorbike up a very steep hill for instance and they can't co ordinate the movements between their arm, legs and back


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## Deleted member 39746

jobo said:


> it's a fine line, body builder may not be athletes by any reasonable definition if the word athlete, they will undoutably be fairly strong, but turning that in to athletic movement is another matter, id much sooner go up against a body builder, than a power athlete who lifts who lifts  weights



As far as i know, body builders are like the weakest strength athlete, a strongman could probably bench press you with one hand, pending how much you weight.  Try fighting that, and the fact they have a thick  coating of muscle so beating them should take more effort than usual.    

They are trained to do endurance fighting over a period of time but being able to lift 3X your body weight goes a long way on its own merits.         Still you cant really build a iron jaw its something you have or dont have.


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## jobo

Rat said:


> As far as i know, body builders are like the weakest strength athlete, a strongman could probably bench press you with one hand, pending how much you weight.  Try fighting that, and the fact they have a thick  coating of muscle so beating them should take more effort than usual.
> 
> They are trained to do endurance fighting over a period of time but being able to lift 3X your body weight goes a long way on its own merits.         Still you cant really build a iron jaw its something you have or dont have.


it's not that clearly cut, the best way of building muscle, us to forget the bro science that abounds in gyms and work all your muscles in all rep ranges, that's also the best way of building performance, that's if you tie the exercises to use the most muscles as possible in combination, but that's not largely what people do, they spend countless hours doing sets of 12 in  bicept curls and shoulder presses, so they look good in a t-shirt,   competition body builder on the other hand are judged on symmetry and posture, not just the size of pub muscles, so they at least have consistent development, if they also work on their all round athleticism  they would be a force to be recond with  its not body building that's the issues, its how they body build and what else they do our don't do, many of them have an irrational fear of cardio, just keep them moving e for 5 mins and they will gas out


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## Martial D

Rat said:


> Isnt that a  effort for anyone in grappling?   if someone who is heavier and/or stronger than you and taller than you gets into grappling range?      At least if you do striking if you clock them with enough force on the jaw you can induce a concussion on them, so long as you can generate enough force to get said effect and hit their jaw.
> 
> 
> I just know i think thats something some pretty decent grapples struggle with, especially if they just know  enough to sufficiently defend themselves in it.     Of course its not a perfect world and fighting is a struggle  anyway and you can loose even if you have the upper hand and all that.
> 
> More directed at your BJJ giving the best chance to a small woman post.     Obviously a trained fit female could probably whoop a unfit and untrained male.   Actually i think they would, but always a chance to loose if you fight anyone its the nature of it.
> 
> Actually someone answer this question for me, is body building the most common strength athletes? I swear that type of exercising has become a hobby for a lot of people.  Just more probability wise of what you would end up fighting on averages, or dealing with.  Preparing for your average clientele you will deal with is probably the only thing you can do.
> 
> Anyway kind of rambly i hope i made some decent points in that.


Ehh..in my experience natural attributes beat training most of the time, if the difference is significant.

We got one girl that has a 5-0 pro record, and she has finished all 5 by tko. I still easily handle her in sparring or grappling though, as old and out of shape as I am now. 

But we also have an older lady that's got her Brown in BJJ, and she legit beats me in grappling more times than not.


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## dvcochran

jobo said:


> size ( either weight or height it both) and strength don't necessarily go together, unless your big person actively trains strength or has strength job,  in a ring contest you can make a reasonable assumption that not only is he or she a foot taller, 60 lbs heavier they also train strength to some extent, in the wider world that far from true
> 
> they are far more likely to just be bigger but have less strength than you, if you do train and they dont.  being big with out the strength to move that weight makes you slow across the ground and to turn, how fight unfolds then us dependent on not letting them use the weight against you, if you end up on the floor pinned by their weight, your in trouble, whilst in motion you have the advantage of both speed and strengh
> 
> in myh early 20s I got into a lot of fights with people who were substantially heavier than I, nearly every one was heavier me, I was 150 lbs soaking wet, this seldom seemed to matter much, in fact being tall and supper skinny seemed to be the cause if most if these fights, people making the mistake of thinking they could push me about, particularly if they couldn't see my Bruce lee type figure under my leather jacket,



So you said all that to say what @skyeisonfire  said in 9 words.


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## jobo

dvcochran said:


> So you said all that to say what @skyeisonfire  said in 9 words.


But you wasted 13 words and two smiles just pointing that out !


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