# masaaki ryu and the kusari



## Aiki Lee (May 30, 2013)

I&#8217;m curious if anyone has an answer why the Masaaki Ryu is not listed as one of the systems within the X-kans. It is my understanding that the training of the kusari fundo found in the X-kanscomes from Masaaki Ryu. Is this true? If so, why is it not part of the ryuhalisted when the systems studied are mentioned?
Is that Hatsumi is not Soke of thatart?
Is it that adding it would make thenumber of arts in the system 10 as opposed to 9 which I believe is a number of significance in Japanese culture?
What are your thoughts?


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I&#8217;m curious if anyone has an answer why the Masaaki Ryu is not listed as one of the systems within the X-kans. It is my understanding that the training of the kusari fundo found in the X-kanscomes from Masaaki Ryu. Is this true? If so, why is it not part of the ryuhalisted when the systems studied are mentioned?




Okay.

First thing, it's "Masaki Ryu", not "Masaaki Ryu"... it ain't named for Hatsumi, ha! Next, while Hatsumi certainly learnt it, or parts of it, from Nawa Yumio (and possibly his son, there are some slightly conflicting reports), that doesn't mean that it's transmitted within the Bujinkan, because, well, it's not. A range of aspects of it (the design of the weapon, some technical methods etc) have been adopted into the Bujinkan, but that's very different to having Masaki Ryu as part of the Bujinkan itself. It's probably safer to suggest that the kusari fundo/manriki gusari methods in the Bujinkan are highly influenced by Hatsumi's training in Masaki Ryu, rather than saying that the methods are directly taken from there.



Himura Kenshin said:


> Is that Hatsumi is not Soke of thatart?




Abso-damn-lutely not!!! Never claimed to be, either. Interestingly, there are a couple of branches around, though... as well as the one Hatsumi trained in, there's also a line transmitted with Suio Ryu, who have a larger focus on Kusarigama within their approach...




Himura Kenshin said:


> Is it that adding it would make thenumber of arts in the system 10 as opposed to 9 which I believe is a number of significance in Japanese culture?




Nope, nothing to do with it. 




Himura Kenshin said:


> What are your thoughts?



Well, you'd be better off asking why Asayama Ichiden Ryu, or Bokuden Ryu aren't listed as part of the Bujinkan, as Hatsumi actually attained Menkyo Kaiden, at least in Asayama Ichiden, if not Bokuden, from Ueno Takashi... certainly far more from there has found it's way into the Bujinkan (much of the Te Hodoki comes from Asayama Ichiden, some short stick work comes directly from there, there are some variations on techniques from Asayama shown in his old "Stick Fighting" book, he has an entire video/DVD covering part of Bokuden Ryu [although, honestly, not the way the line actually shows it, with changes to structure, movement, naming conventions etc, while still retaining essentially the same "techniques"...], and so on). But the reason is, simply, Hatsumi isn't the head of those lines of those Ryu.

Some Masaki Ryu clips for you, just for fun though....















The line taught with Suio Ryu, referred to as the Fukuhara-ha Masaki Ryu Kusarigamajutsu





Both Suio Ryu and Fukuhara-ha Masaki Ryu shown together.


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## Meitetsu (May 31, 2013)

The Jinenkan has Jinen Ryu Kusari Fundo, which was crafted by Manaka Sensei.  He based the overall length of the Kusari fundo on Masaki Ryu.  Sensei said he trained with or saw ( cant remember which) someone from Masaki Ryu a long time ago, but that Jinen Ryu was mainly crafted from his experiences with Kotoryu and so on.


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## Aiki Lee (May 31, 2013)

Thanks for the correction, Chris. So its Masaki Ryu not Maaaasaaaaki Ryu. Lol.
I was aware Hatsumi didnt claim to have sokeship of masaki ryu. My question was if he left it out because he wasnt soke of it and only wanted to include the list of arts he was the head of. I also didnt know he studied Bokuden Ryu so thanks for that information as well.

Thanks for posting those clips by the way! I found them very interestingand was really impressed with the kusarigama work. That thing takes a lot ofskill to wield!
Meitetsu, you say Manaka crafted his kusarijutsu from experiences in Koto Ryu? What is the connection between his use of the chain weapons and Koto ryu?
Also, a follow up to the both of you. Are the kusari fundo, kusarigama, and kyoketsu shoge connected to any of the nine arts of the Takamatsu line or is there no connection and anything derived from them comes from these other sources Chris mentioned?
Thank you for your time.


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## Chris Parker (May 31, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Thanks for the correction, Chris. So it&#8217;s Masaki Ryu not Maaaasaaaaki Ryu. Lol.




Ha, yep! Named for the founder of Masaki Ryu, Masaki Dannoshin Toshiyoshi.




Himura Kenshin said:


> I was aware Hatsumi didn&#8217;t claim to have sokeship of masaki ryu. My question was if he left it out because he wasn&#8217;t soke of it and only wanted to include the list of arts he was the head of. I also didn&#8217;t know he studied Bokuden Ryu so thanks for that information as well.




No, he left it out because he doesn't teach it. As far as Bokuden Ryu, Hatsumi's "Shinken Shiraha Dome" video/DVD is primarily material from there, if you want to see some. Of course, as I said, it's not really the same as is taught in the ryu itself....




Himura Kenshin said:


> Thanks for posting those clips by the way! I found them very interestingand was really impressed with the kusarigama work. That thing takes a lot ofskill to wield!




Not a problem.




Himura Kenshin said:


> Meitetsu, you say Manaka crafted his kusarijutsu from experiences in Koto Ryu? What is the connection between his use of the chain weapons and Koto ryu?




I'm sure Eric can correct me here if I'm wrong, but I read that as being that Manaka has used the Koto Ryu as a basis for his methods of Kusarifundojutsu, not that there was any within Koto Ryu that he took for Jinen Ryu. I'm not aware of any major or direct connection with Koto Ryu and chain weaponry.




Himura Kenshin said:


> Also, a follow up to the both of you. Are the kusari fundo, kusarigama, and kyoketsu shoge connected to any of the nine arts of the Takamatsu line or is there no connection and anything derived from them comes from these other sources Chris mentioned?
> Thank you for your time.



Hmm... that's not really that easy to answer, as it's a lot of "yes, but no" and "no, but yes"... Let's see how clear we can make it.

We'll start with Kyoketsu Shoge.

The Kyoketsu Shoge is claimed to have been invented by Hachiryu Nyudo, who was said to be the teacher of Hakuunsai Tozawa, founder of Gyokko Ryu. According to this history, the weapon was a precursor to the Kusarigama. As Hakuunsai is also linked in with Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu, which was one of the foundations of Togakure Ryu, there are connections with both the Kyoketsu Shoge and Kusari Gama there as well. In terms of flexible weaponry as a whole, there are said to be variations on the Kukishin Ryu Jojutsu using a Chigiriki, or a Shikomi Zue employing a chain, but nothing official in the waza of the Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu is supposed to be known for it's use of nawanage (literally "throwing rope", sometimes described as a kind of lasso), Kumogakure Ryu has it's Ippon Sugi Nobori (a cedar-tree climber, essentially a tube with spikes and a rope threaded through the center), and Shinden Fudo Ryu has Hojojutsu (but, it really must be said, used in a much more "regular" fashion than the "rope" methods seen in the Bujinkan by and large). And there's also supposed to be some form of connection with Kukishinden and the Kusarigama... but no Ryu has any historical connection to the Kusarifundo.

The flip side of all of this is that there are no techniques for any of these... at best, they are taught as a series of principles within certain Ryu. When it comes down to it, there are no techniques for any flexible weaponry currently found in any of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha. Manaka actually created the Jinen Ryu specifically to cover what he felt were the major gaps in the weaponry methods of the Bujinkan Ryu he was taught... namely, by forming an Iai syllabus, Nito, Jutte, Tessen, and Kusarijutsu. With the exception of Jutte, none of these exist in the present forms of the Bujinkan Ryu... and the Jutte is a rather small syllabus in Kukishinden Ryu, when it all comes down to it (with only Kodachi being smaller).

So, yes, there are connections, but then again, there isn't any transmission of any usage or methods... did that help?


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## Meitetsu (Jun 1, 2013)

Manaka Sensei used the years of intense training he did in the other Ryu-ha to craft the Jinenryu.  There is no Kusari Fundo in any of the Koto/Gyokko/Takagi..etc Ryu that I am aware of.  And as Chris said there were very few (Jutte) or no techniques (Ni-to, Kusari Fundo...) for many weapons despite all the material passed down. Hence Jinen Ryu's existence.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks for that, Eric! Out of interest, I know there's Tantojutsu in Jinen Ryu (again, lacking in any of the other Ryu), is there a Kodachi syllabus in Jinen Ryu? As there're only three kata (with a few Ura Gata each), it's the smallest weapon syllabus in the Bujinkan, so I was wondering if Manaka Unsui has bolstered it in his Ryu...


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## Meitetsu (Jun 1, 2013)

No, there is no Jinen Ryu Kodachi.  The topic of Kodachi comes up sometimes and he has given some instruction on it, but as far as a set of techniques by Sensei, there dont seem to be any.


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## Aiki Lee (Jun 2, 2013)

Yes Chris, that did help. It confirmed some of the things I have been told about the flexible weapons while filling in a few gaps. Thanks again.

Where I was going about inquiring about Koto ryu and Manakas Jinen Ryu is if you could explain why Koto ryu may have had a more significant impact on its formation as opposed to the other arts.
I appreciate the time both of you are taking to discuss this with me.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 2, 2013)

Meitetsu said:


> No, there is no Jinen Ryu Kodachi.  The topic of Kodachi comes up sometimes and he has given some instruction on it, but as far as a set of techniques by Sensei, there dont seem to be any.



Thanks, Eric. That matches what I've seen, always good to get confirmation. The only Kodachi I've seen from the Jinenkan is the Kukishin Ryu material (three kata, each with another two or three Ura Gata, and three kamae). There is an old story of Manaka showing some US military guys some Kodachi at one point, so I wasn't sure if it was something he'd expanded on.



Himura Kenshin said:


> Yes Chris, that did help. It confirmed some of the things I have been told about the flexible weapons while filling in a few gaps. Thanks again.
> 
> Where I was going about inquiring about Koto ryu and Manaka&#8217;s Jinen Ryu is if you could explain why Koto ryu may have had a more significant impact on its formation as opposed to the other arts.
> I appreciate the time both of you are taking to discuss this with me.



I don't know that I'd say that Koto Ryu had a more significant impact... there's quite a bit of Kukishin influence there that I see as well, particularly in the Jutte work. With regards to why Koto was used as a base for the Kusarifundojutsu of Jinen Ryu, honestly, only Manaka Unsui could answer that.... so maybe Eric could ask. If I was to guess, or put myself in the same shoes, I'd suggest that Koto was used as a primary template (so to speak) due to it's direct nature, and the way the footwork is well suited to short weapon usage.


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## Meitetsu (Jun 4, 2013)

Yeah, sorry its more Manaka Sensei said "I created it based on my knowledge of Kotoryu, gyokkoryu etc..."  I don't even know if Kotoryu was the first mentioned.  Basically as Kusari fundo and Jutte are short "rather weak weapons" the Jinen Ryu techniques focus on Taihenjutsu.


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## Troy Wideman (Jun 6, 2013)

HI Chris,

I will comment on one of your statements about there being no flexible weapons in the Takamatsu den. In Takagi yoshin Ryu there is techniques on how to fight with Hachi maki. They take on a very similar characteristic to kusari fundo. I guess it depends on what you classify as a weapon. Lol. Interesting coversation guys, something that has been lacking on the forums lately.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman




Chris Parker said:


> [/FONT][/COLOR]
> 
> Ha, yep! Named for the founder of Masaki Ryu, Masaki Dannoshin Toshiyoshi.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Parker (Jun 6, 2013)

Hi Troy,

I haven't come across any use of hachimaki in the Mizuta-den... I'm assuming it's in the Ishitani-den? From all accounts I've come across, there aren't any weapons transmitted with the Mizuta-den, and (as Himura has been discussing the Bujinkan, rather than all Takamatsu arts, in this instance referring to "the nine arts of the Takamatsu line", which, to me, implies the Bujinkan only) that was all I was talking about there.

With regards to the use of hachimaki there, are there formal waza, or more a series of principles taught?


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## ShugyoIkkan (Jun 7, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> When it comes down to it, there are no techniques for any flexible weaponry currently found in any of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha.



As has been pointed out in the past, it's better to not make firm statements regarding what does not exist in the nine ry&#363; of the Bujinkan if you one does not have any connection to them or their S&#333;ke.

There are techniques for "flexible weaponry" in the nine ry&#363;, both named and unnamed. The most shining example is Gyokko Ry&#363;, where there is both kusarifund&#333;jutsu and torinawajutsu.


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## Todd Schweinhart (Jun 7, 2013)

ShugyoIkkan said:


> As has been pointed out in the past, it's better to not make firm statements regarding what does not exist in the nine ry&#363; of the Bujinkan if you one does not have any connection to them or their S&#333;ke.
> 
> There are techniques for "flexible weaponry" in the nine ry&#363;, both named and unnamed. The most shining example is Gyokko Ry&#363;, where there is both kusarifund&#333;jutsu and torinawajutsu.



I also agree with Mr. Wideman regarding Takagi ryu, including the Mizuta den.  There are a variety of weapons taught in the yurushi for most branches of this school.

I would also agree with the first part of "ShugyoIkkan's" statement above however the latter part of the statement happens all too often.  I would love to discuss this either in forum or offline with you.  I am curious if this is part of Hatsumi's line passed from Takamatsu or if this is some scroll that is unrelated.  I have asked others about this and interestingly can't find anyone to discuss or show proof.  I have also seen a lot of documentation surrounding these schools and would enjoy seeing "proof" by the ones making claims.

Best,
Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM
Louisville  KY


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## Chris Parker (Jun 8, 2013)

ShugyoIkkan said:


> As has been pointed out in the past, it's better to not make firm statements regarding what does not exist in the nine ry&#363; of the Bujinkan if you one does not have any connection to them or their S&#333;ke.
> 
> There are techniques for "flexible weaponry" in the nine ry&#363;, both named and unnamed. The most shining example is Gyokko Ry&#363;, where there is both kusarifund&#333;jutsu and torinawajutsu.



Personally, I find it both odd and disturbing that the Bujinkan membership seems to be unique in not knowing what is in their own system(s), with a common rhetoric being "unless you ask Soke, how can you know? You're not Soke". Well, firstly, the idea of knowing what is in a system is actually quite standard... even in systems where certain subjects are "secret", what they are focused on are known. It's known that there are secret methods for, say, sword... or strategy... or jujutsu... or anything. What those methods are can be, and often are, kept secret... but it's still known what they are about. Next, the idea of "if one does not have any connection to them or their Soke" is, again, a false reasoning. For one thing, there is a definite connection, just not a current one (personally or politically, when it comes to the Soke of the Ryu), so the reasoning fails there. Next, the content of the Ryu hasn't changed from the decades we (for example) were a part of the organization. Thirdly, there is such a thing as corroborating evidence... when all sources except for a small minority (who also claim, in most cases, not to truly know one way or the other) state something, including, in cases, Hatsumi himself, it can be pretty much taken as correct. 

There is a desperate desire in some sections of the Bujinkan (or, at least, it's online representations) to see all the Ryu-ha as composite systems, covering all aspects, including many, if not all weapons that can be thought of, despite there being no evidence or support for such ideas (in the Ryu, in the teachings of the Bujinkan, in any other lines, in any other historical traditions, in the context of the various systems themselves, and so on). The most prevalent seem to be the supporters of a particular instructor, and, to be frank, from everything I've seen of him, I'm not sold on the credibility of such information.

But, to be clear, there is no kusarifundojutsu or torinawajutsu in Gyokko Ryu. There was no kusarifundo in any of the Bujinkan arts prior to Hatsumi, so the only way there could be any would be if he put it there. Torinawajutsu (Hojojutsu) is found in Shinden Fudo Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu teaches Nawanagejutsu (which is quite different), and Hatsumi has his own expression of using a rope (which doesn't fit anything historical from any system I've come across... for a range of reasons). I would also be fairly convinced that such things are found in various lines of Takagi Ryu (I've seen it in some not related to the Bujinkan, for instance), especially considering the connection to Takenouchi Ryu (and the story of the initial meeting...). I'm going to need more than an anonymous claim that "well, there are" to change my mind on that, as the idea doesn't fit in a number of ways.



Todd Schweinhart said:


> I also agree with Mr. Wideman regarding Takagi ryu, including the Mizuta den.  There are a variety of weapons taught in the yurushi for most branches of this school.
> 
> I would also agree with the first part of "ShugyoIkkan's" statement above however the latter part of the statement happens all too often.  I would love to discuss this either in forum or offline with you.  I am curious if this is part of Hatsumi's line passed from Takamatsu or if this is some scroll that is unrelated.  I have asked others about this and interestingly can't find anyone to discuss or show proof.  I have also seen a lot of documentation surrounding these schools and would enjoy seeing "proof" by the ones making claims.
> 
> ...



Hi Todd,

I'm familiar with the weaponry methods of a number of lines of Takagi Ryu, as well as the concepts of the Yurushi Den... but haven't seen anything like that for the Mizuta Den. From what I've seen, it's an import from the Ishitani Den (when taught in the Bujinkan), combined with, how to put this, modern created additions based on the ideas and principles found there (such as the Iai methods... there aren't any in the Ishitani or Mizuta-Den Takagi lines. I've trained in Iai in a related system, for the record... and I know of Paul Richardson's seminar with yourself when he was teaching what was called Takagi Yoshin Ryu Iai, as well as Kodachi, but no other source supports the presence of any Iai waza). That said, I'm quite interested in Troy's comments here, knowing what his credentials in this Ryu (both lines) are....


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## ShugyoIkkan (Jun 8, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> But, to be clear, there is no kusarifundojutsu or torinawajutsu in Gyokko Ryu.



And you know this how exactly?

It's very amusing when people state things strongly and then later, when they have been proven wrong, see them come up with pathetic excuses for their mistakes...

So, carry on believing that you know everything about the nine ry&#363;ha (from books, internet and hearsay). 

Just a small note however...



> Next, the content of the Ryu hasn't changed from the decades we (for example) were a part of the organization.




Indeed. It hasn't. But Wayne Roy did not receive full transmission in the nine ry&#363;. In fact, looking at his movement and his students' movements, it can be argued that he didn't receive any transmission at all. In any ry&#363;. Being a member of the Bujinkan, and training in the presence of Hatsumi sensei, doesn't mean one is receiving transmission in the ry&#363;. Receiving a list of kata, or even the order of the movements within the kata, isn't real transmission either. Anyone can get that. Just because you are well read and knowledgeable it doesn't mean you can make definite statements regarding the ry&#363;, and I hope that people who read your posts on this forum (and others) realize that you are just a man with an opinion, who - like most people - holds very few facts regarding the ry&#363;.


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## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2013)

Perhaps, before lobbing insults and challenges to people's credibility, you might share something about your own qualifications to speak?


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## Todd Schweinhart (Jun 9, 2013)

Mr. Parker, if you are familiar with the yurushi then you should also know that they exist within the Mizuta Den as well as just about every other branch of Takagi ryu.  In addition there are other scrolls, as well as possibly other schools, sometimes taught within or along with Takagi Ryu that would contain weapons etc.  

To address another point, it is also a know fact that Hatsumi didn't teach certain portions of the ryu to very senior members, for whatever reason, and that most people have no true idea of the ryu content as they practice a system created from the schools and not the schools themselves.  An excellent example of this is Manaka sensei.  A great budoka I have experienced many times but himself said that he only learned a portion of Muto Dori and didn't have other sets of kata within Takagi Ryu.  This is actually quite shocking due to his extended time with Hatsumi sensei and dedication to the arts.  This doesn't take away from Manaka sensei in the least bit and I only mention it as a clear example of Hatsumi sensei's unorthodox teaching approach.

Mr. Parker, I have had Paul Richardson in visiting my school on several occasions as I have other friends of mine.  When you say you know of the workshop, I am not sure that means you read about it on web or that you possibly know Paul.  If you do in fact know him, you can ask his opinion directly about my involvement with Takagi Ryu and its branches.

It is also important to realize we are all "seekers on the path", so to speak, which makes it difficult to say something does or does not have material without some intimate knowledge of the school.  However, I think anyone has the right to inquire about sources and validity of information when someone claims something outside the norm.  I am interested in the SFR and Gyokko Ryu claims from a research perspective.  I am quite sure most of that material existed in most koryu in Japan.  Just not so sure that the document being referenced earlier is from the same lineage and would be open to discuss it privately.

Best,
Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM


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## Chris Parker (Jun 9, 2013)

ShugyoIkkan said:


> And you know this how exactly?
> 
> It's very amusing when people state things strongly and then later, when they have been proven wrong, see them come up with pathetic excuses for their mistakes...
> 
> So, carry on believing that you know everything about the nine ry&#363;ha (from books, internet and hearsay).



"Proven wrong"? Really? By who? You came along, made your second (anonymous) post for the forum, stating that there "is kusarifundojutsu and torinawajutsu in Gyokko Ryu", without any backup, support, or evidence, let alone any comment on where such knowledge comes from, and you're calling that "proof"? As far as "pathetic excuses", read again. I answered how I came to my understanding, as well as the support for such an idea.

Oh, and my understanding comes from a much more diverse range of sources than has been intimated or even guessed at, for the record... inside and outside the Bujinkan. 



ShugyoIkkan said:


> Just a small note however...



Of course...



ShugyoIkkan said:


> Indeed. It hasn't. But Wayne Roy did not receive full transmission in the nine ry&#363;. In fact, looking at his movement and his students' movements, it can be argued that he didn't receive any transmission at all. In any ry&#363;. Being a member of the Bujinkan, and training in the presence of Hatsumi sensei, doesn't mean one is receiving transmission in the ry&#363;. Receiving a list of kata, or even the order of the movements within the kata, isn't real transmission either. Anyone can get that. Just because you are well read and knowledgeable it doesn't mean you can make definite statements regarding the ry&#363;, and I hope that people who read your posts on this forum (and others) realize that you are just a man with an opinion, who - like most people - holds very few facts regarding the ry&#363;.



And we're back to this again... 

Look, I get that most Bujinkan don't like us, and frankly, I don't give a damn. More importantly, the entire premise of this paragraph is rather off, as well as missing a few salient points. We can start with the "didn't receive any transmission at all" comment... bluntly, I have yet to see any evidence of anyone receiving any "true transmission" in any of the Ryu-ha from Hatsumi. And yeah, I'm talking about something far more than a list of kata as well. As far as "just because you're well read and knowledgeable it doesn't mean...", hmm.... you really are missing where that information comes from.



Todd Schweinhart said:


> Mr. Parker, if you are familiar with the yurushi then you should also know that they exist within the Mizuta Den as well as just about every other branch of Takagi ryu.  In addition there are other scrolls, as well as possibly other schools, sometimes taught within or along with Takagi Ryu that would contain weapons etc.


 
Hi Todd,

I'm very aware of the other lines, the weaponry systems, the variances, and so on, as well as the yurushi no den within many lines... but, as I said, what is known as the yurushi within the Mizuta-den seems (to me) to be taken from the Ishitani-den, rather than being the Mizuta-den itself.  



Todd Schweinhart said:


> To address another point, it is also a know fact that Hatsumi didn't teach certain portions of the ryu to very senior members, for whatever reason, and that most people have no true idea of the ryu content as they practice a system created from the schools and not the schools themselves.  An excellent example of this is Manaka sensei.  A great budoka I have experienced many times but himself said that he only learned a portion of Muto Dori and didn't have other sets of kata within Takagi Ryu.  This is actually quite shocking due to his extended time with Hatsumi sensei and dedication to the arts.  This doesn't take away from Manaka sensei in the least bit and I only mention it as a clear example of Hatsumi sensei's unorthodox teaching approach.



Completely agreed with the first sentence (particularly the statement that the Bujinkan teaches a system created from the schools [Budo Taijutsu... but it's origins are more than that, of course], and not the Ryu themselves). But a large part of my information comes not from relying on people who've trained part....Manaka, to use your example, didn't receive Menkyo in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, only Gyokko and Togakure, so him not having the whole system is fine (from that perspective). 



Todd Schweinhart said:


> Mr. Parker, I have had Paul Richardson in visiting my school on several occasions as I have other friends of mine.  When you say you know of the workshop, I am not sure that means you read about it on web or that you possibly know Paul.  If you do in fact know him, you can ask his opinion directly about my involvement with Takagi Ryu and its branches.



I didn't mean to imply anything negative about yourself, or Paul's seminar and teachings there, my apologies if it came across that way. I was more pointing out that the claim of Takagi Ryu Iai goes against the claims of pretty much everyone else, including and up to Hatsumi, for the record. Paul wasn't the only one to teach such things, he wasn't the first, he won't be the last, but that doesn't mean there was actually any Iai in Takagi Ryu (Mizuta-den... or Ishitani, for that matter).



Todd Schweinhart said:


> It is also important to realize we are all "seekers on the path", so to speak, which makes it difficult to say something does or does not have material without some intimate knowledge of the school.  However, I think anyone has the right to inquire about sources and validity of information when someone claims something outside the norm.


 
So my claims, which match all other known information, the comments and claims of various Soke and Menkyo holders, people who are ranked specifically in the schools and so on, are the ones that are "outside the norm", and should be questioned? I agree that claims should be questioned, but I disagree that claims that match common understanding should be dismissed, questioned, or be attempted to be discredited because someone doesn't like who is saying it... and I see that a fair bit.



Todd Schweinhart said:


> I am interested in the SFR and Gyokko Ryu claims from a research perspective.  I am quite sure most of that material existed in most koryu in Japan.  Just not so sure that the document being referenced earlier is from the same lineage and would be open to discuss it privately.



You might want to do some more reading of what was in various Koryu, then... because, as a rule, it wasn't. But, for the record, this is an open discussion forum, and it's considered bad form (not to mention technically against the rules) to invite private conversation rather than open discussion in the threads... just a heads up.


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## skuggvarg (Jun 9, 2013)

> Oh, and my understanding comes from a much more diverse range of sources than has been intimated or even guessed at, for the record... inside and outside the Bujinkan.
> 
> So my claims, which match all other known information, the comments and claims of various Soke and Menkyo holders, people who are ranked specifically in the schools and so on, are the ones that are "outside the norm", and should be questioned? I agree that claims should be questioned, but I disagree that claims that match common understanding should be dismissed, questioned, or be attempted to be discredited because someone doesn't like who is saying it... and I see that a fair bit.


 Mr Parker, Im sure you have collected some information from various sources and I applaud you for your persistance in putting so much time into investigating the ryu-ha. However, as has been pointed out many times before, you may voice your educated opinion but to be so rude as to tell others about their school, as if you had some real connection to the masters of that school, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You know very well where the information BigWill shares comes from. You may not agree about what he says but if you question it you have to go higher in the hierarchy and question those masters too (one being the soke of the schools, the other having some 40 years in practise and several Menkyo Kaiden, the last having some 25 years in practise and having a very close connection to the other two masters). Perhaps there was no kusarijutsu in the Gyokko Ryu 200 years ago, who knows. For all we know Everything could have been made up. Even old documents can be faked or why not stolen? It matters Little because now there is Kusarijutsu and we are practising it as part of Gyokko Ryu. Those who want to learn how to just have to seek out those who know it. You can, if you like, keep on arguing about it but it wont change a thing. Regards / Skuggvarg


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## Jameswhelan (Jun 9, 2013)

Chris,

Mr Schweinhart and Mr Wideman are the two most expert people about the Takagi ryu complex of styles outside of Japan. We're very lucky to have them both contributing to this thread.
Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.


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## jks9199 (Jun 9, 2013)

Somehow, I feel that this is an excellent time to remind everybody of some of the basic rules here at MartialTalk.


> The "basic rule" is in effect for discussions on MartialTalk.com:
> 
> Treat others, as you would wish to be treated. We ask that you be  professional and polite to one other and respect our intention to have a  forum for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. We do not wish  to censor or control your opinions, but we will ensure that the policies  of the board are respected. We reserve the right to delete, edit, or  move/merge posts at our discretion. (Note in particular that we have  restrictions on where you may post advertising and how many times you  may post the same message.) If you have any questions regarding such an  action, or wish to point out a violation of the letter or spirit of our  policies, we ask that you please notify a moderator or administrator.
> 
> ...





> *1.10.2 No Art bashing. *
> 
> No one art is "the best", no one  "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your  research and find what best fits your ability and need.
> 
> ...



If you think another poster is wrong, or just talking out their ***, or whatever, you can call them on it.  Just stay within The Rules.  Be polite about it, and if they don't answer...  Well, that kind of says something, doesn't it?


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## Steve (Jun 9, 2013)

Jameswhelan said:


> Chris,
> 
> Mr Schweinhart and Mr Wideman are the two most expert people about the Takagi ryu complex of styles outside of Japan. We're very lucky to have them both contributing to this thread.
> Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.


We're all peers here, and when people forget that, things tend to go South pretty fast.  As a group, we value respect, courtesy and reasoned debate over appeals to authority, logical fallacies and unsupported allegations.   If you think Chris is wrong, just saying, "You're wrong, Chris," isn't going to cut it.  You guys are going to need to support your positions.  This is a discussion forum.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 9, 2013)

*Yes this is a discussion forum and we are all martial peers here Steve*.  However, when someone practices outside of the current systems from someone who used to train in it how could they possibly be in a position to be the one correcting those who actually are in the system, have links to the teachers and Soke of the system and are experts in the system themselves.  Not to mention that they are current and updated to how the system works and is understood today. (this is after all a living system and not a system set in stone)  It would be like me going to Royce Gracie or one of his top students and lecturing him on his families history and saying that this, this or this is not in his system of Brazilian Jiujitsu.  Even though there are things in Brazilian Jiujitsu that are not taught in his family system. (the system is living afterall and growing technically wise)  This is not to say that Chris is not knowledgeable or that he does not express himself well but instead that he is not the authority on the history or traditions of the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan.  *He is instead one of the authorities on his teachers system*. Nor is anything meant negative about his teacher because I do not know him or how much he learned or how good he is.  They literally may be the best for all I know.  I think that the authorities in the *X-Kans* are those who have directly trained at the feet of Hatsumi Sensei. (ie. longtime students like the Japanese Shihan, Manaka Unsu Senseii, Tanemura Sensei and various western Shihan who have trained a long time and continue to train and learn)  Those above are the ones *more in position* to say with a more definitive answer that this or that is not within a certain ryu-ha.  if they broke away they certainly can have that perspective within their own system. (they are then the authority there)   Not me, not Chris but instead those that were very close to the source of it all or are close to the source.  It is hard and I mean very, very hard to say with certainty that there is nothing in this ryu or that.  Why?  Because some thing may only have been passed on to certain individuals through time.  Some things may only be transmitted to a certain few.  Some things are left out of books and videos.  Some things may be put into a ryu-ha by the Soke as is his right to do so.  One thing I have learned through the years is that the moment you say with definitive conviction that this or that is this way in the X-Kans is the moment that you end up with egg on your face.  I have personally been corrected on a few things myself while in the Hombu dojo and outside of it and I am just a minor Bujinkan practitioner because it simply is not the only thing that I do.  Still I came in knowing one thing and left with a new knowledge and perspective!!!  That's just the way it is!

Having said the above I enjoy reading posts that Chris writes, enjoy his knowledge of the X-Kans as he certainly has put in some work in that department and enjoy that he likes what he does and is trying to improve as a martial practitioner.  No ill will here, not even a little bit!


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## Todd Schweinhart (Jun 9, 2013)

Mr. Whelan, thank you for your kind words but I am merely a student training best I can.  Let's catch up again sometime!

Mr. Parker, I feel sometimes you comments are a bit strong...and possibly presumptuous...."_You might want to do some more reading of what was in various Koryu, then... because, as a rule, it wasn't._"  Maybe this comment was a misunderstanding on what I was attempting to convey...I was referring to most koryu containing things such as iai, tenugui no tsukaikata (torinawa) etc.  It is fact that most koryu contained these and other concepts.  I may have also misunderstood your statement but feel as if you think I don't have experience in "koryu".  But I will still take your advice and read up a bit more.  Any suggestions?

Your statement regarding Manaka of the Jinenkan could better be answered by his current students today but I believe you are incorrect on that.  You stated.."_Manaka, to use your example, didn't receive Menkyo in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, only Gyokko and Togakure_"   Manaka himself stated he received Menkyo in Takagi Ryu and others but also achieved Menkyo Kaiden in latter schools you mentioned.  I included this statement to merely demonstrate guys who have spent a lot less face time with Hatsumi sensei, especially foreigners, would perhaps know even less than Manaka.  I would venture to say having a Menkyo would give some indication of one's depth of knowledge.

You are also incorrect regarding the Mizuta den not having the yurushi.  I have seen various documents including a densho from Mizuta himself and the yurushi are listed.

My last comment was regarding the claims of Gyokko Ryu and SFR having additional information within the school.  I have an assortment of documents from schools listing very similar names of ryu that are included in the various takamatsu den.  These documents contain all these items discussed and not openly taught to Takamatsu den but are more than likely not from the same lineage of what is being passed on today.  If someone claims otherwise...ie Gyokko Ryu has fundo, spear etc...then I am interested from research perspective.  I have pretty strong thoughts on the historical composition of Gyokko Ryu and other schools however I think it is incorrect for anyone to state so authoritatively what it does and does not contain especially when not a direct student of said ryu.

Additionally I wasn't trying to "break rules" when inviting the discussion to private but thought that was the proper thing to do considering the original poster may not want to discuss it out in the open.  I would offer Mr. Parker the same kindness to discuss his comment made here "_So my claims, which match all other known information, the comments and claims of various Soke and Menkyo holders_".  When you say these claims are made by soke and Menkyo holders, do you mean posted online or in an article or these statements were made to you personally?  I am merely trying to understand the weight of this statement.

It would be interesting to get everyone in a private room so we could discuss some of the issues and present some findings of our research in a positive atmosphere.  We had something like this back in the old E-budo days.  We had representation from various branches etc and it was quite nice to discuss what we had all uncovered over the years.  Nothing proprietary mind you, but just everyone's research including personal experiences.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM


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## Steve (Jun 9, 2013)

I think, Brian, there is a way to disagree that is respectful and informative.  Demanding that another poster essentially sit down and shut up has no place here, IMO.  its discourteous at best.

I have no way of knowing whether Chris is correct or not.  But there is no sharing of information going on.  From the outside looking in, it's a lot of posturing.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 9, 2013)

Jameswhelan said:


> Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.



So, when did you get promoted to Admin so you can dictate policy here?


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 9, 2013)

Todd Schweinhart said:


> It would be interesting to get everyone in a private room so we could discuss some of the issues and present some findings of our research in a positive atmosphere.  We had something like this back in the old E-budo days.  We had representation from various branches etc and it was quite nice to discuss what we had all uncovered over the years.  Nothing proprietary mind you, but just everyone's research including personal experiences.



You can check with Bob Hubbard, but the software this site runs allows that. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/group.php Might have to be a supporting member to set one up.


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## ShugyoIkkan (Jun 10, 2013)

Chris, the only problem is that you keep making authoritative statements regarding the ry&#363;-ha. If you would just say "hey, I'm just a guy on the outside with an interest, I don't have all the facts" then there would be no problem. You base your statements solely on the erroneous assumption that Hatsumi sensei, the S&#333;ke, has revealed everything to the public. If you would just accept that he hasn't, then it would not be difficult to be humble and realize that some information can only be received by being part of (even a very small part) the chain of transmission.

Now, as for you not being "sold on the credibility" of Kacem... it is like a child not being sold on the credibility of a math professor. Kacem is a deshi since 20+ years of Ishizuka sensei, who has menkyo kaiden in six of the nine ry&#363; (including the aforementioned Gyokko Ry&#363; and Takagi Y&#333;shin Ry&#363, and has a close relationship with the current S&#333;ke. This already says a lot. Add to that what he has shown, according to many independent eye-witness accounts, to back up his claims (of for example weapons in Gyokko Ry&#363 in terms of documents and more, and it's really strange that you keep insisting on that you are right...


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## Troy Wideman (Jun 10, 2013)

Jameswhelan said:


> Chris,
> 
> Mr Schweinhart and Mr Wideman are the two most expert people about the Takagi ryu complex of styles outside of Japan. We're very lucky to have them both contributing to this thread.
> Here's how this is going to work: when they're speaking, your listening and asking questions politely. Don't presume to correct or lecture them you're not a peer here.




HI James,

Thank you for the kind words but as Todd stated I am just someone on the path and have a particular interest in Takagi Yoshin Ryu and all its numerous lines (lol). 

Hi Chris,
As Todd stated, the yurushi den is in both Mizuta and Ishitani lines. It is just a section that is not very well know within the public forum.
Inrelation to the Hachimaki, there are some techniques but mostly principles of how to use it. 

Hi Todd,
Good to see your still lurking around. Hope all is well with you.



Lets not derail this conversation with any personal attacks on anyone, the information is very interesting to say the least. Lets keep up topics like this, it is something that has been lacking of late on all the forums.

Kind Regards,

Troy wideman


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 10, 2013)

Steve said:


> I think, Brian, there is a way to disagree that is respectful and informative.  Demanding that another poster essentially sit down and shut up has no place here, IMO.  its discourteous at best.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Absolutley Steve!  Respectful and polite discussion is what this forum is all about!


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## Hatsie (Jun 11, 2013)

Well this has been an informative thread in more ways than one!
  Great to see some very knowledgable people posting, namely Troy, Todd, skuggvark, shugyoikkan , Brian, james etc.     It seems most threads here are pounced on, flooded by and revolve around the often incorrect assumptions of a few individuals, who as stated have no clue what is in the nine schools, extensively ( except of course what a good google search can reveal) and no way of checking their own assumptions, save tit bits of information scavenged on the Internet like a cyber vulture. ( like has actually been witnessed in this very thread!)



   So as a rule of thumb it would appear; skill and knowledge are inversely proportional to post count and martial talk 'rank'
    So at least we can learn to be careful what one reads and believes as fact! As it may just be the ramblings of 'some dude' however enthusiastic, banging out post in his bedroom.


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## jks9199 (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, since "rank" here on MartialTalk is just for fun, and based solely on post count...  It's not a particular good measure of martial arts skill or knowledge, nor is it supposed to be.  

The best way to assess any individual's skill or knowledge is to read for yourself, and do some other research.  But, I'm reminded of an old saying:  The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.  For some reason, over the last few years, most of the Bujinkan practitioners have stopped posting much, at least here on MartialTalk.  So people from offshoots, who posess at least a little knowledge have been kind enough to answer questions, accoring to their own statements.  Perhaps you all can contribute your knowledge to correct any errors.


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## Hatsie (Jun 12, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Well, since "rank" here on MartialTalk is just for fun, and based solely on post count...  It's not a particular good measure of martial arts skill or knowledge, nor is it supposed to be.
> 
> The best way to assess any individual's skill or knowledge is to read for yourself, and do some other research.  But, I'm reminded of an old saying:  The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.  For some reason, over the last few years, most of the Bujinkan practitioners have stopped posting much, at least here on MartialTalk.  So people from offshoots, who posess at least a little knowledge have been kind enough to answer questions, accoring to their own statements.  Perhaps you all can contribute your knowledge to correct any errors.



   Indeed, and in principle I agree. However, another expression would be ' a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' or at least a somewhat annoying thing anyway, espescially when that little bit of knowledge ( even if its correct!) seems to go to people's heads, and evolves into the disparagement of the highest ranking MASTERS of the arts in question, up to and including the soke!
    So unfortunately as we don't live in the picture perfect world as seen in the brochures  I would be surprised if anyone were to share the time of day with people like that, let alone share knowledge gifted to and entrusted with by one of the aforementioned masters or student there of.
   Your mileage may vary.


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## Grenadier (Jun 12, 2013)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Martialtalk.com is a place for the polite discussion of martial arts.  There are many ways to disagree with someone in a manner that isn't rude.  You don't have to like the other guy that you're debating, but you are expected to show some courtesy.  

Please keep the discussion civil.  

Ronald Shin
MT Assistant Administrator


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## poryu (Jun 14, 2013)

HI Chris

with regards to your comment below on Masaki Ryu and Hatsumi sensei's training in Masaki Ryu



Chris Parker said:


> [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
> there are a couple of branches around, though... as well as the one Hatsumi trained in, .



Exactly which is the branch that is still around that Hatsumi sensei trained in. Can you name the branch and the current teacher please.


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## Troy Wideman (Jun 15, 2013)

poryu said:


> HI Chris
> 
> with regards to your comment below on Masaki Ryu and Hatsumi sensei's training in Masaki Ryu
> 
> ...




HI Paul,

Hope all is well with you. With your extensive research you have done on Hatsummi's training, what is his link to Masaki Ryu. I figured you would be the best person to ask since you are involved in the ryu ha.


Kind Regards,

Troy


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## skuggvarg (Jun 19, 2013)

Oooh, the sound of silence.....


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## poryu (Jun 21, 2013)

Troy Wideman said:


> HI Paul,
> 
> Hope all is well with you. With your extensive research you have done on Hatsummi's training, what is his link to Masaki Ryu. I figured you would be the best person to ask since you are involved in the ryu ha.
> 
> ...



Hi Troy.

I never asked. All I know is he studied for a time period (unknown) with Nawa sensei. What he actually studied I have no idea. I do know from what I have seen Hatsumi sensei do with a chain is that he has studied some of the Manrikigusari, to what level or menkyo I have no idea. I couldnt even give you dates that he was a member of the school. I would assume it was pre-Takamatsu so that would make it the 1950's. I do know my current teacher once told me he has never met Hatsumi sensei. 

I am still waiting for Chris Parker to answer my question regarding his study of Masaki Ryu because the content of some of his posts lead people to assume he was studied it quite a bit.


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## Troy Wideman (Jun 22, 2013)

poryu said:


> Hi Troy.
> 
> I never asked. All I know is he studied for a time period (unknown) with Nawa sensei. What he actually studied I have no idea. I do know from what I have seen Hatsumi sensei do with a chain is that he has studied some of the Manrikigusari, to what level or menkyo I have no idea. I couldnt even give you dates that he was a member of the school. I would assume it was pre-Takamatsu so that would make it the 1950's. I do know my current teacher once told me he has never met Hatsumi sensei.
> 
> I am still waiting for Chris Parker to answer my question regarding his study of Masaki Ryu because the content of some of his posts lead people to assume he was studied it quite a bit.




Hi Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Very interesting. Are you enjoying the ryu ha? Is there a tai jutsu section to the ryu ha? 

Glad you got your stuff back, from the facebook post.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## poryu (Jun 24, 2013)

HI Troy
There is no jujutsu as just jujutsu, I would say it is incorporated into the weapons, we can discuss this sometime on chat.

Police have now arrested 3 people, one they think did the break in, one is the handler and the other a poor sap who bought some bits. But the katana I saw have been trashed.

I wonder if Chris Parker will answer my question above and the one on another thread about him teaching some Masaki Ryu and who he learnt it from.


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## Hatsie (Jul 1, 2013)

poryu said:


> I wonder if Chris Parker will answer my question above and the one on another thread about him teaching some Masaki Ryu and who he learnt it from.



I applaud your patience poryu! Two threads and you've been left 'hanging' in both! From someone normally so opinionated and vocal, almost bad manners.
    A simple 'yes, I've trained for 'x' years with this master, please take my statements based on that" or " actually I haven't had any proper training from anyone remotely clued up, I just mess around on my own, and have an opinion based on that"
     Shouldn't be difficult, one would think?
but whilst your waiting, some soothing music,

http://youtu.be/m5xVN2mvrq0


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