# Sport Vs. KKW



## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

*one thing, you need to stop making distinctions between sport and non-sport. there are no such distinctions, and according to the pioneers who created taekwondo, there is only one art and one taekwondo. dividing it up into sport non sport, or whatever else destroys the unity that is the hallmark of our art. the pioneers sacrificed their own individual kwan identities as well as their kwan income in favor of a unified single taekwondo and personally I would like to see that continue for as long as possible. *

I find the above statement to be kinda funny, after thinking about this I am starting another thread about it. First off I am being told I need to do something well I am over fifty and the only thing I need to do is appreciate my wife and childern, next there is no distinction between the two really go ask any high level competitor and they will surely point out a few . Pioneers sacrificed there own Kwans really because I know alot of pioneers and they make sure people know they are a certain linage of said kwan.

The last thingis this unified single TKD when and where is this anywhere in the world, not even in Korea is there a single one only TKD. Please point me in the direction of this single unified group? Here in the US I can name thousands of groups that will bash another group and talk about how bad one is compare to the other.

I know some of you have a higher rank than me and believe certain things but to try and get me to believe certain things will not happen, I have been in TKD - Karate - Martial Arts for 48 years and have seen and hear alot of things. But the one thing I consistately hear is TKD is not and will never be unified under one banner simply because to many high level instructors are money hungry people and all they only care about is how much they can get out of you. Lets just get that taken care of and maybe one day the intregrity and the respect we should have for each other can get back to some kind of acceptable level in TKD.


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## miguksaram (Dec 14, 2010)

I feel part of the confusion when talking about sport TKD.  First and foremost is the fact that sport rules of TKD is managed by the WTF.  This would cause people to think that the sport part TKD is a seperate entity.  The sport aspect of TKD is still part of TKD. It is the sparring that we do in class.  The only difference is that when you go to a competition you have a set of rules.  But you are still doing TKD.  There is no sport vs KKW just like there is no Self Denfense vs KKW.  It is all one TKD.  

Even elite players can not say what they do is not KKW TKD.  Their techniques are based in KKW TKD techniques.  So the old argument of sport vs. KKW or sport TKD vs. trad.  Now I know people will chime in with the "We don't practice for competition.  We spar for real" or whatever dribble they will spew.  It's not your goal of sparring which makes you TKD.  It is the fact that you are sparring.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

Well people train andifferent aspect of TKD when doing sport, must sport people do not do poomsae, one steps or self defense they only work on kicking the sport way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> *one thing, you need to stop making distinctions between sport and non-sport. there are no such distinctions, and according to the pioneers who created taekwondo, there is only one art and one taekwondo. dividing it up into sport non sport, or whatever else destroys the unity that is the hallmark of our art. the pioneers sacrificed their own individual kwan identities as well as their kwan income in favor of a unified single taekwondo and personally I would like to see that continue for as long as possible.*


Who made the statement?  Anyone with eyes can see the distinction between sport and the actual martial art.  Not to mention that I have heard that kwan unification was not entirely cooperative (that may not be true, but I have seen statements to that effect), not to mention that unity in taekwondo is sadly elusive. To believe the above requires some naivity and a certain degree of self delusion.

At the outset, the sport was probably not meant to be such a separate entity, but the fact is that it has become a very disinct and separate entity.



terryl965 said:


> I know some of you have a higher rank than me and believe certain things but to try and get me to believe certain things will not happen, I have been in TKD - Karate - Martial Arts for 48 years and have seen and hear alot of things. But the one thing I consistately hear is *TKD is not and will never be unified under one banner simply because to many high level instructors are money hungry people and all they only care about is how much they can get out of you.* Lets just get that taken care of and maybe one day the intregrity and the respect we should have for each other can get back to some kind of acceptable level in TKD.


Well, there is also the factor of how taekwondo is perceived.  It is very hard to unify when so many have different ideas of what taekwondo is supposed to be.  I can't say that money and greed are the only driving factors, though you certainly have a better perspective than I.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Dec 14, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I feel part of the confusion when talking about sport TKD.  First and foremost is the fact that sport rules of TKD is managed by the WTF.  This would cause people to think that the sport part TKD is a seperate entity.  The sport aspect of TKD is still part of TKD. It is the sparring that we do in class.  The only difference is that when you go to a competition you have a set of rules.  But you are still doing TKD.  There is no sport vs KKW just like there is no Self Denfense vs KKW.  It is all one TKD.
> 
> Even elite players can not say what they do is not KKW TKD.  Their techniques are based in KKW TKD techniques.  So the old argument of sport vs. KKW or sport TKD vs. trad.  Now I know people will chime in with the "We don't practice for competition.  We spar for real" or whatever dribble they will spew.  It's not your goal of sparring which makes you TKD.  It is the fact that you are sparring.



I dunno.  Let's face it, if you aren't a KKW taekwondo person, the gap between your own expression of TKD vs. Olympic rules sport TKD is pretty wide.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Even elite players can not say what they do is not KKW TKD. Their techniques are based in KKW TKD techniques.


Maybe they don't, but certainly they can.  I'm not getting at the idea that one is better or worse, but WTF sport TKD has become a distinct entity, like it or not.  

The fact that the techniques used are based in KKW TKD is somewhat beside the point, given that much of what is used in sport TKD is not unique to KKW TKD anyway.  

Anyone who feels that sport style sparring isn't 'real' is mistaken, but it is different from training in a traditional fashion.  There really is no reason that the two cannot coexist within the same organization.  Iai and kendo both exist in the ZNKR and are sometimes taught in the same school, but students do not rank in both simultaneously.  The two have a relation, but they are distinct.

Likewise, WTF sport taekwondo has a relation to KKW taekwondo, but the two are still technically distinct.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

Well also th WTF is going to start to issue there own rank tells me the sport is being seperated from the KKW. If unity is what it wants then why seperate the WTF from the KKW?


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## miguksaram (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well also th WTF is going to start to issue there own rank tells me the sport is being seperated from the KKW. If unity is what it wants then why seperate the WTF from the KKW?


 
Well KKW has issues with that.  So WTF doing that is not something the KKW is happy about.  Nor should they.  What right does WTF have to issue rank when all they do is manage the sport.  They do not set curriculum standards at all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Well KKW has issues with that. So WTF doing that is not something the KKW is happy about. Nor should they. What right does WTF have to issue rank when all they do is manage the sport. They do not set curriculum standards at all.


Well, they have as much 'right' as anyone else.  They're an org, they can issue rank.  The KKW however, has the right to not recognize WTF rank.

Now, is this rank in 'sport' tkd or is it meant to be the equivalent of the KKW rank?  Or maybe the WTF is going to start setting curriculum standards?

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> there is no distinction between the two really go ask any high level competitor and they will surely point out a few .



Any high level competitor. Do you mean that we should defer to the opinions of practitioners in their teens and twenties to tell us what Taekwondo is all about? 




terryl965 said:


> Pioneers sacrificed there own Kwans really because I know alot of pioneers and they make sure people know they are a certain linage of said kwan.



Being proud of one's lineage doesn't mean that the did not sacrifice their kwan for the sake of unification. Also, which pioneers do you know?  My definition of pioneer is one who actively participated in the creation of Taekwondo back during the formative years. Generally these are kwan jang or others who began their training in the 1940's or earlier. 




terryl965 said:


> The last thingis this unified single TKD when and where is this anywhere in the world, not even in Korea is there a single one only TKD. Please point me in the direction of this single unified group? Here in the US I can name thousands of groups that will bash another group and talk about how bad one is compare to the other.



I will also have to draw a distinction between a unified Taekwondo and different groups. Groups and art are not the same thing. We have unified Taekwondo at the Kukkiwon, which is the symbol of unification. If you practice the Kukkiwon poomsae for example, you are part of the unified Taekwondo. If you have Kukkiwon certification, then you are part of unified Taekwondo. 




terryl965 said:


> I know some of you have a higher rank than me and believe certain things but to try and get me to believe certain things will not happen, I have been in TKD - Karate - Martial Arts for 48 years and have seen and hear alot of things.



If I had to point to one thing that is causing turmoil in Taekwondo, it is the attitude expressed in the above statement. The "I don't care if you are my senior or teacher, don't tell me what to do" is what caused the USTU to come crashing down. It is what prevents people at USAT from uniting and making meaningful change there as well. It is the individualistic, me perspective that really is the antithesis of what Taekwondo is all about, which is coming together for the sake of the art and its practitioners. There is no woo ri anymore. 




terryl965 said:


> But the one thing I consistately hear is TKD is not and will never be unified under one banner simply because to many high level instructors are money hungry people and all they only care about is how much they can get out of you. Lets just get that taken care of and maybe one day the intregrity and the respect we should have for each other can get back to some kind of acceptable level in TKD.



Again, it is one of perspective. I look at Taekwondo from the pioneer's perspective because I wish to understand what they were thinking and attempting to achieve when creating Taekwondo. In taking that approach, hopefully I can understand what taekwondo is about, or at least what it was supposed to be about. 

I think you tend to look at things from the perspective of those around you. Perhaps there are high level instructors out there who are only interested in making money, and therefore wear patch covered uniforms and do not issue Kukkiwon certification to their students. But I choose not to use that lowest common denominator perspective as my basis for my understanding of what Taekwondo is, because if I did do that, if I only looked at what people are actually doing out there, I would probably quit Taekwondo. Instead, I choose to look at things from the pioneer or the founder's perspective, the perspective which tells me that Taekwondo is a beautiful unique creation, something that is worthy of a lifetime of study.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well people train andifferent aspect of TKD when doing sport, must sport people do not do poomsae, one steps or self defense they only work on kicking the sport way.




Just because certain practitioners choose to focus on one aspect at some particular point in their journey does not mean that Taekwondo is not unified. The pioneers themselves focused on different aspects of Taekwondo at different periods of Taekwondo's development.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well also th WTF is going to start to issue there own rank tells me the sport is being seperated from the KKW. If unity is what it wants then why seperate the WTF from the KKW?



The WTF is not going to start to issue their own rank, at least not dan rank.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

Glen (I believe that that is your name),

Firstly, I appreciate the input that you have made here at MT since your arrival. 

I'd like to ask you, if you feel that there is no distinction between sport and art (for lack of a better way of putting it), how do you reconcile the very clear technical differences between the two?

As you say that you choose to look at things from the pioneer's perspective, do you feel that what WTF sport has become today is really what the pioneers had in mind when taekwondo was new?

I appreciate your response.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Likewise, WTF sport taekwondo has a relation to KKW taekwondo, but the two are still technically distinct.Daniel



No it is not. Unlike your Iaido and Kendo are two separate arts. You can tell because they have different names. There is no separation like in Iaido and Kendo as far as curriculum goes. When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, the kicking and competition sparring section of the course was taught by GM KIM Se Hyuk, who was a two or three time coach of the Korean Olympic Team, as well as his Samsung S1 coaches (who also coached at World Championships and other events) and athletes (including gold medal Olympians). At the WTF World Poomsae Championships, the competition is based on the Kukkiwon poomsae. 

As I stated in another post, one of the main motivations for unifying Taekwondo was to gain entrance into the Olympic movement. Unification of Taekwondo was one of the main requirements of iOC inclusion. I find it ironic that those who most benefited from the unification, those who are part of the Olympic Taekwondo movement, are the loudest voices in saying that there is no unification. 

One word of caution: Taekwondo has many enemies in the Olympic world. Many IOC members hate Taekwondo because they see it as a troublesome sport rife with controversy and disharmony. If you continue to view Taekwondo in the same way, as opposed to seeing it how the pioneers see it, then the end result just may be Taekwondo leaving the Olympic Games. Last year, Dr. Un Yong KIM warned us about this during a speech given at a dinner hosted by the KTA. 

Instead of defiantly thumbing our noses at what may be perceived as someone telling us what to do, perhaps a better approach would be to see what we all can do to keep Taekwondo preserved for future generations, which include a unified curriculum and rank structure, as well as a unified competition format at the Olympic Games. 

Or we can choose to do whatever we want, no matter who or what gets hurt in the process.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'd like to ask you, if you feel that there is no distinction between sport and art (for lack of a better way of putting it), how do you reconcile the very clear technical differences between the two?



I don't see any technical differences. Which technical differences are you speaking about?




Daniel Sullivan said:


> As you say that you choose to look at things from the pioneer's perspective, do you feel that what WTF sport has become today is really what the pioneers had in mind when taekwondo was new?



Yes, I do think that is what they had in mind. From the earliest days, the goal was to unify Taekwondo. Within the martial arts, or any other physical endeavor really, unification often comes when there is competition. For example, under the WTF competition sparring rules, Taekwondo technically has become very unified, especially if you compare how competitors from different countries competing back in the 80's until now. Today, everyone looks remarkably similar in terms of technique. 

That same unification is being achieved in poomsae or forms. In the past, forms was almost like the ugly step child in Taekwondo, because everyone was focused on sparring and trying to figure out the training methods to achieve success in that arena. Competition poomsae is doing the same for forms because in order to succeed at the WTF level, everyone must adhere to the same technical standards. 

In contrast, look at arts that deemphasize competition -- they are all over the place technically because the instructors literally are free to do whatever they want, because there is no mechanism to enforce uniformity. In competition, you can try whatever you want, but ineffective techniques and training methods will result in losing matches. So everyone must adapt in order to survive and to succeed. 

Or you can do what many Taekwondo instructors do and that is to stay within the comforts of their own dojang, isolated from the world.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> No it is not. Unlike your Iaido and Kendo are two separate arts. You can tell because they have different names.


This is a highly simplistic way of looking at it. 

No, you cannot tell because they have different names. People can name anything anything that they wish without regards to the content. Names also change over time (kendo having been _gekkiken_ until the thirties), so I do not use them to differentiate arts on a substantive level. 

You can tell because the primary implement in kendo is a 39" straight bamboo sword and the primary focus of kendo is shiai sparring with said sword while wearing bogu. Kata in kendo, which while performed with a bokuto, are very different from those in iai, which has no sparring element. Both arts have kata and share the use of the bokuto, at least initially, and both arts are sword arts. Both can trace their roots back to the various schools of kenjutsu. Related, but not the same.

At one point, most, if not all, taekwondo schools in the US had big honkin 'karate' sign on the door. What differentiated taekwondo from karate was in the content, not the marquee.



puunui said:


> There is no separation like in Iaido and Kendo as far as curriculum goes. When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, the kicking and competition sparring section of the course was taught by GM KIM Se Hyuk, who was a two or three time coach of the Korean Olympic Team, as well as his Samsung S1 coaches (who also coached at World Championships and other events) and athletes (including gold medal Olympians). At the WTF World Poomsae Championships, the competition is based on the Kukkiwon poomsae.


I would not imagine that there would be; execution of kicks in tournament is not going to differ markedly from execution outside of a sport context. But the rule set's emphasis on kicks, and specifically high kicks, does dramatically alter the dynamic of WTF sport taekwondo, and yes, it does so on a technical level. 



puunui said:


> As I stated in another post, one of the main motivations for unifying Taekwondo was to gain entrance into the Olympic movement. Unification of Taekwondo was one of the main requirements of iOC inclusion. I find it ironic that those who most benefited from the unification, those who are part of the Olympic Taekwondo movement, are the loudest voices in saying that there is no unification.
> 
> One word of caution: Taekwondo has many enemies in the Olympic world. Many IOC members hate Taekwondo because they see it as a troublesome sport rife with controversy and disharmony. If you continue to view Taekwondo in the same way, as opposed to seeing it how the pioneers see it, then the end result just may be Taekwondo leaving the Olympic Games. Last year, Dr. Un Yong KIM warned us about this during a speech given at a dinner hosted by the KTA.
> 
> ...


Personally, I do not see the olympics as an effective means of preserving anything, though that has everything to do with my opinion of the olympics and nothing to do with taekwondo.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> do you feel that what WTF sport has become today is really what the pioneers had in mind when taekwondo was new?




One caveat: I do think that the pioneers are disappointed in the direction that the new leadership of the WTF is taking the art. They spent decades trying to create something unique in order to get Taekwondo into the Olympic Games. Now many pioneers feel that we are on the verge of getting kicked out of the Olympic Games due to incompetence and poor decision making. They see all their hard work at creating a unified Taekwondo going down the drain due to misguided juniors acting in ways that is hurtful to Taekwondo.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> I don't see any technical differences. Which technical differences are you speaking about?


Okay...

Basic guard is radically altered in WTF competion due to the fact that hand techniques are no longer much of a factor and hand techniques to the head are not a factor at all. 

With no hand strikes to the head allowed, the guard has become a low, hands down position with the competitor leaning back. This both facilitates the execution of high kicks and the avoidance of one's opponent's kicks.

This creates a fighting style where the head is left essentially unguarded and leg techniques are essentially the only choice.  This can be done because leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques and originate several feet below the head. 

I consider the removal of hand techniques and the accompanying change that result to be a pretty large technical difference, particularly in an art whose poomsae contain a greater number of hand techniques than they do leg and foot techniques. 

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is a highly simplistic way of looking at it.



Discussions often begin simply, and then become more complex the deeper you go into it. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Kata in kendo, which while performed with a bokuto, are very different from those in iai, which has no sparring element. Both arts have kata and share the use of the bokuto, at least initially, and both arts are sword arts.



I didn't realize that Kendo had kata. there are kendo schools here and I dont think any of them practice that. I do know that some Kendo instructors here also teach iaido as a separate art and given separate certification in iaido.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> At one point, most, if not all, taekwondo schools in the US had big honkin 'karate' sign on the door. What differentiated taekwondo from karate was in the content, not the marquee.



Back then, many Taekwondo schools advertising as Karate were for the most part indistinguishable from Karate. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would not imagine that there would be; execution of kicks in tournament is not going to differ markedly from execution outside of a sport context. But the rule set's emphasis on kicks, and specifically high kicks, does dramatically alter the dynamic of WTF sport taekwondo, and yes, it does so on a technical level.



But not within the context of the Kukkiwon, since the curriculum is still the same, irrespective of rule changes at the WTF level. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I do not see the olympics as an effective means of preserving anything, though that has everything to do with my opinion of the olympics and nothing to do with taekwondo.



ok.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> One caveat: I do think that the pioneers are disappointed in the direction that the new leadership of the WTF is taking the art. They spent decades trying to create something unique in order to get Taekwondo into the Olympic Games. Now many pioneers feel that we are on the verge of getting kicked out of the Olympic Games due to incompetence and poor decision making. They see all their hard work at creating a unified Taekwondo going down the drain due to misguided juniors acting in ways that is hurtful to Taekwondo.


If you don't mind my asking, precisely what direction *is* the new leadership of the WTF taking the art?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Discussions often begin simply, and then become more complex the deeper you go into it.


I'll grant you that. 



puunui said:


> I didn't realize that Kendo had kata. there are kendo schools here and I dont think any of them practice that. I do know that some Kendo instructors here also teach iaido as a separate art and given separate certification in iaido.


Seven tachi and three tachi/kodachi kata. They were assembled by the Japanese police department from the various schools of kenjutsu that were extant at the time and then codified. The intention was that all kenjutsu schools would practice these ten kata, adding to it their own unique curriculum. Modern kendo diverged from kenjutsu later.



puunui said:


> Back then, many Taekwondo schools advertising as Karate were for the most part indistinguishable from Karate.


Fair enough.



puunui said:


> But not within the context of the Kukkiwon, since the curriculum is still the same, irrespective of rule changes at the WTF level.


Yes, but (unless I am completely off the mark) athletes do not compete within the context of the Kukkiwon. Athletes compete within the context of the WTF and whatever NGB their schools operate under. Those rule changes have made the sport what it is today, and it is as the sport currently is that it is discussed on this board.



puunui said:


> ok.


My opinion of the olympics is certainly a minority opinion and is, of course, just an opinion.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Basic guard is radically altered in WTF competion due to the fact that hand techniques are no longer much of a factor and hand techniques to the head are not a factor at all. With no hand strikes to the head allowed, the guard has become a low, hands down position with the competitor leaning back. This both facilitates the execution of high kicks and the avoidance of one's opponent's kicks.



In both competition and self defense (which I think you are talking about), the highest level is executed from a hands down position. In the poomsae, many of the forms, most actually, begin from a hands down position. This is a basic self defense tactic wherein you do not wish to alert your opponent as to your intention. This is especially true if your opponent is outside of your immediately striking range. 

In Taekwondo competition, a basic premise is that we stand outside of the opponent's kick range, meaning that the opponent has to take a step or slide forward in order to be in range of kicking. That extra distance gives us enough time to react to anything that the opponent does. Standing that extra distance also increases the probability that the initial kick to be executed will be one to the body, since body kicks are longer than head shots. All of these factors favors keeping one's hands down, when standing outside of an opponent's immediate kick range. 

Also, there is no leaning back in competition. Modern competition favors an upright stance, not leaning back, because if you lean back, mobility is hampered. There are some exceptions of course, but the basic stance in either upright, or slightly forward, not leaning back. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> This creates a fighting style where the head is left essentially unguarded and leg techniques are essentially the only choice.  This can be done because leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques and originate several feet below the head.



I disagree that leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques, because you still need your legs to get into your opponent's range. I'll give you an example. I have students who train in both GJJ and Taekwondo, and they enter various MMA competitions. The basic strategy that we have developed for them is that there is only two ranges, kick range and grappling range. Most competitors in both taekwondo and MMA events, or any martial art really, kick short, meaning that they are most effective with their kicks at a range which is very similar to punching range. 

We recognize that and so we launch our kicks from outside of punching range, which really messes up those MMA fighters. They don't know how to respond because all their training is geared towards kicking within almost punching range. So when we take that away from them, they get frustrated and angry, and then rush in, which takes us into grappling range. So we completely neutralize 98% of people out there with their main weapon, the over hand right hand punch.  They don't even come close to landing a punch, whether we have our hands up or not. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I consider the removal of hand techniques and the accompanying change that result to be a pretty large technical difference, particularly in an art whose poomsae contain a greater number of hand techniques than they do leg and foot techniques.


 
Large technical difference between what? I thought the discussion was about technical differences between the Kukkiwon and WTF.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but (unless I am completely off the mark) athletes do not compete within the context of the Kukkiwon. Athletes compete within the context of the WTF and whatever NGB their schools operate under. Those rule changes have made the sport what it is today, and it is as the sport currently is that it is discussed on this board



Within the context of the Kukkiwon, there is no sparring competition, but the training methodology is the same whether Kukkiwon training or training for WTF events. Again, our kicking instructors at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course was a two time Olympic Coach as well as his professional competition team which included Olympic gold medalists. There is no curriculum distinction between the Kukkiwon and the WTF.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you don't mind my asking, precisely what direction *is* the new leadership of the WTF taking the art?



Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> In both competition and self defense (which I think you are talking about), the highest level is executed from a hands down position. In the poomsae, many of the forms, most actually, begin from a hands down position. This is a basic self defense tactic wherein you do not wish to alert your opponent as to your intention. This is especially true if your opponent is outside of your immediately striking range.


Yes, that is what I am talking about. And yes, I agree with you here.



puunui said:


> In Taekwondo competition, a basic premise is that we stand outside of the opponent's kick range, meaning that the opponent has to take a step or slide forward in order to be in range of kicking. That extra distance gives us enough time to react to anything that the opponent does. Standing that extra distance also increases the probability that the initial kick to be executed will be one to the body, since body kicks are longer than head shots. All of these factors favors keeping one's hands down, when standing outside of an opponent's immediate kick range.


Absolutely. 



puunui said:


> Also, there is no leaning back in competition. Modern competition favors an upright stance, not leaning back, because if you lean back, mobility is hampered. There are some exceptions of course, but the basic stance in either upright, or slightly forward, not leaning back.


I will rewatch compeition vids. If that is the case, then I take back my leaning comment.



puunui said:


> I disagree that leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques, because you still need your legs to get into your opponent's range. I'll give you an example. I have students who train in both GJJ and Taekwondo, and they enter various MMA competitions. The basic strategy that we have developed for them is that there is only two ranges, kick range and grappling range. Most competitors in both taekwondo and MMA events, or any martial art really, kick short, meaning that they are most effective with their kicks at a range which is very similar to punching range.


You are talking about effective use of strategy and footwork in order to maximize the effectiveness of leg techniques, primarilly kicks. I'm talking about the difference in speed between hand techniques and leg techniques. 

Also, I should qualify that I am mainly referring to leg techniques being applied to targets above the waist. 



puunui said:


> We recognize that and so we launch our kicks from outside of punching range, which really messes up those MMA fighters. They don't know how to respond because all their training is geared towards kicking within almost punching range. So when we take that away from them, they get frustrated and angry, and then rush in, which takes us into grappling range. So we completely neutralize 98% of people out there with their main weapon, the over hand right hand punch.  They don't even come close to landing a punch, whether we have our hands up or not.


Again, I agree.  And I appreciate your answering.  Your post does offer me a different perspective on the subject.  My thanks.



puunui said:


> Large technical difference between what? I thought the discussion was about technical differences between the Kukkiwon and WTF.


Technical difference between content of technique and the dynamic that results because of it. 

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.


Not that I'm opposed to that, but I am certainly surprised!

Daniel


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## ATC (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well people train andifferent aspect of TKD when doing sport, must sport people do not do poomsae, one steps or self defense they only work on kicking the sport way.


Our sport team is separated from our normal classes but everyone on the sport team must take their regular classes or be dismissed from the compitition (sport) team. So we do both. I know you said many but was just letting you know that we do both.


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## texkwondo (Dec 14, 2010)

No difference between the art and the sport?  Tell me, where in the traditional art side of things has hurling yourself into your opponent into a clench position from 8 feet away with one leg raised in a defensive position ever been taught?


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## ATC (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.









 what? Do you know what the WTF was created for? This statement make no sense at all. Read up on your history, there is not that much to read so it should not take long.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You are talking about effective use of strategy and footwork in order to maximize the effectiveness of leg techniques, primarilly kicks. I'm talking about the difference in speed between hand techniques and leg techniques.



I know that. Most people when they think of punch or kick speed, concentrate on the hand or leg only. But to me, hand and foot speed is entirely dependent on footwork, because if you are not within range, you can't hit your target.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, I should qualify that I am mainly referring to leg techniques being applied to targets above the waist.


 
Why the qualification? Why discuss punching the face but not kicking the legs? 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Technical difference between content of technique and the dynamic that results because of it.


 
I still don't think there is any difference.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not that I'm opposed to that, but I am certainly surprised!



USAT is also running on a parallel course in that the leadership has the organization headed towards eventual replacement as the WTF Member National Association for the United States. 

At the recent WTF General Assembly, the WTF Bylaws (they are called something else now though) were revised such that the WTF no longer needs approval from the National Olympic Committee (NOC) in order to approve a particular WTF Member National Association's status. This was done primarily because in Australia, IOC member Phil Coles is supporting one group as the WTF MNA, and the Australian Olympic Committee has approved a different one. WTF President Choue needs to pay back Mr. Coles for his support during the last WTF elections, so they changed the rule such that WTF can approve their MNA in Australia without the Australian Olympic Committee's approval. 

But this opens up the possibility of the same thing happening in other WTF MNA, like USAT for instance. There are groups out there lobbying both the WTF and the Korean Government to remove USAT as WTF MNA and replace it with their group. I don't know how successful this will be, because I think the present WTF leadership likes the fact that USAT has no influence internationally as far as WTF politics go. One less potential problem to worry about.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> I know that. Most people when they think of punch or kick speed, concentrate on the hand or leg only. But to me, hand and foot speed is entirely dependent on footwork, because if you are not within range, you can't hit your target.


Absolutely!   



puunui said:


> Why the qualification? Why discuss punching the face but not kicking the legs?


In a different conversation, I would discuss both.  

In this conversation, we're talking about kicks to the head in lieu of punches to the head with no strikes at all below the waist.  Punches to the face are a staple of fighting and sport taekwondo eliminates this in order to showcase the kicking prowess of the athletes.

One of the things that you had mentioned, the hands down position to keep your intentions unknown, is something that I had pointed out in an SD vs. sport TKD thread some time ago.  However, there are no intentions to hide in WTF sport due to the fact that hand techniques are mostly eliminated.  The primary reason for keeping the hands up in most fighting sports is due to the fact that you already know head strikes will be a factor and you are not making any attempt to escape the fight as one would in an SD scenario.  

The only reason that a hands down guard is used in WTF sparring is due to its shielding the body from kicks while head level kicks are more easily dodged.  It is not a result of any attempt to correlate the sport to self defense. 



puunui said:


> I still don't think there is any difference.


I will have to disagree with you agreeably.

Please note that I do not consider sport vs SD/tradition/art/whatever you want to call non sport TKD to be a question of better or worse.   I don't see sport TKD as bad or without merit.  I do, however see them as different.  

Obviously, you do not and while I don't agree with you, I do like the case you make to support your statement.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> USAT is also running on a parallel course in that the leadership has the organization headed towards eventual replacement as the WTF Member National Association for the United States.
> 
> At the recent WTF General Assembly, the WTF Bylaws (they are called something else now though) were revised such that the WTF no longer needs approval from the National Olympic Committee (NOC) in order to approve a particular WTF Member National Association's status. This was done primarily because in Australia, IOC member Phil Coles is supporting one group as the WTF MNA, and the Australian Olympic Committee has approved a different one. WTF President Choue needs to pay back Mr. Coles for his support during the last WTF elections, so they changed the rule such that WTF can approve their MNA in Australia without the Australian Olympic Committee's approval.
> 
> But this opens up the possibility of the same thing happening in other WTF MNA, like USAT for instance. There are groups out there lobbying both the WTF and the Korean Government to remove USAT as WTF MNA and replace it with their group. I don't know how successful this will be, because I think the present WTF leadership likes the fact that USAT has no influence internationally as far as WTF politics go. One less potential problem to worry about.


Very interesting.  A question: what is an MNA?

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

ATC said:


> Our sport team is separated from our normal classes but everyone on the sport team must take their regular classes or be dismissed from the compitition (sport) team. So we do both. I know you said many but was just letting you know that we do both.


 
ATC I know you guys do as do we and I imagine alot of sport school do as well. I still say there is a difference between sport and KKW.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

This is directed to you puunui, you do not know me except from my website and you believe me to be a lonely 4th so I should look up to my seniors. This tels me you really do not know much about me and my rank, as far as respecting my seniors I do but first they must truely be my senior not somebody that brought there rank by going to USAT and jumping four ranks, they are not my senior, they are a joke to me sorry but it is my GOD given right to say this. Next thing my G.M. is still mad at me for not grading for 17 years, if I had you would probaly be the in my ball park of rank. People that tell me I have no respect kill me, what you should be saying is I do not have the right to ask because that is what it boils down to I am your supperior so do not ask.

Next thing if the WTF and KKW are the same why two different aspect one for the sport and one for tradition? They broke it up not me, why get offended on what you say are the choosen ones? Bring the two fashen together and make them both be unified, because as of right now they do not see eye to eye on alot of issues. Now tell me is this because of big ego's or the money that comes from the sportside?

If there is no different in kicking techs., tell me this why do you need to come up on a angle to score with certain EBP systems? Have you seen every EBP system and used them, tell me again how it is not about the sport, I cannot believe the pioneers sat back and said we will make it a game of tag in competition and then said we will change it over to EBP system some 70 years ago. You know I have some early pioneers right around the corner from me here in Texas and they did not see TKD becomming such heavily influence in the sportside. So I really doubt if the true pioneers had this Olympic ideal in there head when the name TKD was made that night in Korea.

Last thing I question because I live in a country that allows me to be free, by me being a US citizen I have the right to my opinion and just because it does not relate to yours does not make your any better than mine. I believe 48 year mean something but that does not mean you or anybody else is superior to me or my G.M..


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## Archtkd (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.


 
Please expound on that. You might know something about the current WTF leadership that many of us don't know but, I still don't see how that regime could be focused on getting Taekwondo out of the Olympics.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> This is directed to you puunui, you do not know me except from my website and you believe me to be a lonely 4th so I should look up to my seniors. This tels me you really do not know much about me and my rank, as far as respecting my seniors I do but first they must truely be my senior not somebody that brought there rank by going to USAT and jumping four ranks, they are not my senior, they are a joke to me sorry but it is my GOD given right to say this.



I never said any of that, you did. I think you are reading too much into it and getting upset, frankly for nothing. And I didn't take any promotion test from USAT. I know some people who did participate, and they were in my opinion, deserving of promotion. Others, maybe not so much. I do know that the Kukkiwon took a lot of grief and there were many problems associated with that special test at US Open, to the point where I don't think the Kukkiwon will sponsor that sort of thing with USAT ever again. One issue, for example: The candidates who passed their skip dan test were required to submit the testing fees for all of the ranks skipped as well as the present rank which was approved. So for example, if you went from 1st to 4th Dan, you were supposed to pay the fees for 2nd-4th, which the candidates submitted. However, USAT only submitted the 4th Dan fee to Kukkiwon, keeping the rest. 




terryl965 said:


> Next thing my G.M. is still mad at me for not grading for 17 years, if I had you would probaly be the in my ball park of rank.



Maybe. then again maybe not. But it doesn't really matter what your rank or mine is. I let the quality of my posts speak for me, not my rank. 




terryl965 said:


> People that tell me I have no respect kill me, what you should be saying is I do not have the right to ask because that is what it boils down to I am your supperior so do not ask.



You must have missed the post where I said I question my teachers and seniors all the time, but that there is an art to it. One thing though, when you get an answer from your teacher or senior, sometimes it takes a while before you truly and fully understand the answer. I know from my own experience there were answers to questions that I didn't finally get until decades later. 





terryl965 said:


> Next thing if the WTF and KKW are the same why two different aspect one for the sport and one for tradition? They broke it up not me, why get offended on what you say are the choosen ones? Bring the two fashen together and make them both be unified, because as of right now they do not see eye to eye on alot of issues. Now tell me is this because of big ego's or the money that comes from the sportside?



They broke it up because Dr. Un Yong KIM is no longer the head of both anymore. But can you restate the above? I am having a hard time understanding what you are asking. 





terryl965 said:


> If there is no different in kicking techs., tell me this why do you need to come up on a angle to score with certain EBP systems? Have you seen every EBP system and used them, tell me again how it is not about the sport, I cannot believe the pioneers sat back and said we will make it a game of tag in competition and then said we will change it over to EBP system some 70 years ago. You know I have some early pioneers right around the corner from me here in Texas and they did not see TKD becomming such heavily influence in the sportside. So I really doubt if the true pioneers had this Olympic ideal in there head when the name TKD was made that night in Korea.



ok. One poin though, if you need to come up on an angle to score or you have to change tactics in order to score on a different electronic hogu for WTF competition, the Kukkiwon wouldn't be opposed to that. In fact, if you attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, at least in Korea, and Coach KIM Se Hyuk was the one leading the kicking drills portion of the course, you could raise your hand and ask him about all of that stuff, and he would answer you, with no objection from any Kukkiwon instructor or official. 




terryl965 said:


> Last thing I question because I live in a country that allows me to be free, by me being a US citizen I have the right to my opinion and just because it does not relate to yours does not make your any better than mine. I believe 48 year mean something but that does not mean you or anybody else is superior to me or my G.M..



Too bad DD isn't around anymore. You would have made a very good member.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Obviously, you do not and while I don't agree with you, I do like the case you make to support your statement.



I can't control the way you think, or what you do. But if you are looking at something from a different perspective because of one of my posts, then that's good. One of the reasons why I post on these things, besides the fun factor, is to challenge myself by exposing myself to different points of view. One thing I like about MT is that it is composed of members outside of the Korean Martial Arts. If I only were exposed to KMA practitioners, then my viewpoint becomes decidedly narrow. So I like to study or at least hear about other martial arts, and see what they are doing, and then apply that to KMA.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> You might know something about the current WTF leadership that many of us don't know but, I still don't see how that regime could be focused on getting Taekwondo out of the Olympics.



I can tell you that at a dinner hosted by the KTA in November of last year, Dr. Un Yong KIM gave a speech warning us that the IOC and its members do not like Taekwondo, that in fact they HATE Taekwondo, and that continued inclusion in the Olympic Games should be a very real concern for all of us. 

One of the reasons why the IOC and its members (not all) do not like Taekwondo is because there always seems to be some sort of controversy or drama. The WTF certainly is not a model IOC International Federation. Almost from the very beginning of his Presidency, there were allegations that President Choue tried to bribe another IOC member in England during an event. Mr. Nat Indrapana, IOC member from Thailand and WTF Vice President, lost his bags during an event in London or some other city in the UK, whereupon there was suddenly a gift of $10,000 to him from the WTF Secretary General. Mr. Indrapana declined the gift and reported this incident to the IOC.

There is also much controversy surrounding the WTF MNA (Member National Association) in disputes which reach the IOC. Australia, which I have written about previously, is one.

The cuban competitor kicking the referee in the face during the last Olympics, with several IOC members present, was a black eye, not only for the WTF and Taekwondo, but for the IOC as whole. 

The biggest concern about Taekwondo and the WTF comes from the questions concerning the leadership of President Chungwon CHOUE, especially when compared to Dr. Un Yong KIM's leadership. When Dr. Kim would have a meeting with the Olympic family, everyone would lean forward to hear his viewpoint and for him to explain what direction we needed to go into to continue to prosper.This was especially true in Asian countries, where Dr. Kim was looked upon as an Asian or World leader in the Olympic movement, and not just in Korea. 

In contrast, when President Choue visits Asian countries, everyone leans forward to hear his views, but he extends none and instead brags about how he is a man because he can out drink everyone at the table. 

That kind of stuff. 

Electronic scoring is another fiasco. The WTF promised the IOC that it would have electronic scoring at the 2008 Beijing Games, but that never happened and it looks highly unlikely that electronic scoring will be used at the London Games. 

We can also go into the internal problems that the WTF has faced, the lies and broken promises that President Choue has made to the WTF voting members, as well as his own personal issues, but I think you get the point.


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## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> In both competition and self defense (which I think you are talking about), the highest level is executed from a hands down position. In the poomsae, many of the forms, most actually, begin from a hands down position. This is a basic self defense tactic wherein you do not wish to alert your opponent as to your intention. This is especially true if your opponent is outside of your immediately striking range.
> 
> In Taekwondo competition, a basic premise is that we stand outside of the opponent's kick range, meaning that the opponent has to take a step or slide forward in order to be in range of kicking. That extra distance gives us enough time to react to anything that the opponent does. Standing that extra distance also increases the probability that the initial kick to be executed will be one to the body, since body kicks are longer than head shots. All of these factors favors keeping one's hands down, when standing outside of an opponent's immediate kick range.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting perspective.... one I have not heard before... or much less given any thought about.  Day one was hands up, but I can see the idea of hands down not to alert one of your intentions or defense. interesting point of view.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2010)

Ok puunui maybe I am reading to much into the post so for that I apologies, just for the record who is DD? I guess I mis-read your post when you was saying I should be listening to seniors, also never said you skipped Dan with USAT but I know a few that did and believe me they idid not deserve that rank at least in my opinion.


Let me re ask this question what is a MNA?

I will get back on the topics at hand and go from there. You kinda say the Olympics are over but did they not just renew it until 2024 and if I am wrong sorry but I could have swore it was being done until then and then re-discuss again.


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## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Let me re ask this question what is a MNA?
> 
> .


 
MNA (Member National Association)  USAT is our MNA in the WTF

this could be a blessing or can of worms if the WTF would choose a different group to represent the US in the olympics instead of the one the USOC blessed.

Hard one to say if it would be good or bad.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2010)

To say there is no difference between sport and non-sport tkd is just ludicrous. I dont do sport tkd and the very first thing we are taught is to always keep your guard up. No matter what we are doing, if you lower your guard you will be yelled at. Then I watch olympic sparring and they have their hands down around their waist, it goes against every rule of self defence. Tks is a martial art, it teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner, olympic tkd is a game and does not even begin to resemble tkd. I have nothing against olympic tkd and i admire the athleticism and endurance required to do such a sport, but to call it a martial art is just misleading. Until they give 'sport tkd' a separate name there just wont be unification because its like saying tennis and squash are the same thing because they both use a raquet.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> who is DD?



DD stands for Dojang Digest. It was a email mailing list run by Ray Terry. It closed a year or two ago. 




terryl965 said:


> Let me re ask this question what is a MNA?



MNA stands for Member National Association. It is a WTF term to identify what the USOC calls NGB, or National Governing Body. USAT is the Member National Association for the WTF in the United States, and is the national governing body for taekwondo under the USOC. 




terryl965 said:


> IYou kinda say the Olympics are over but did they not just renew it until 2024 and if I am wrong sorry but I could have swore it was being done until then and then re-discuss again.



We don't know if Taekwondo will be out of the Olympics. it is too soon to tell and there hasn't been a vote. What I did say was that Dr. Kim told us last year that the IOC hates Taekwondo, and that its continued inclusion in the Olympic Games isn't guaranteed. Also, the WTF President Choue isn't respected in the international sports community. All of that adds up to a shaky future. So in order to counter that, we need to do everything we can to maintain taekwondo's stability and structure, and present a unified happy face to the IOC.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> this could be a blessing or can of worms if the WTF would choose a different group to represent the US in the olympics instead of the one the USOC blessed.




The problem comes in if WTF chooses one group and a country's NOC chooses another group. At the Olympic Games and the regional Games like Pan American Games, the NOC chooses the participants. So if the NOC selection group chooses the olympic athletes for an Olympic Games, then do they go, because the selection wasn't done by the WTF MNA. So there is that conflict. I believe Australia is facing this dilemma right now. We have to see how it plays out in Australia.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2010)

The funny thing is that my daughter had been doing tkd for a couple of years when the last olympics was on. I was sitting and watching the tkd and she came in and watched it with me and after about 15 minutes she said "wow, this looks cool, whats the name of this sport?". She actually does tkd and yet it is unrecognisable to her. The same reason our GM severed all ties with the kukkiwon 10 years ago.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> To say there is no difference between sport and non-sport tkd is just ludicrous. I dont do sport tkd and the very first thing we are taught is to always keep your guard up. No matter what we are doing, if you lower your guard you will be yelled at.



If you don't do "sport tkd", then how can you make a comparison? 




ralphmcpherson said:


> Then I watch olympic sparring and they have their hands down around their waist, it goes against every rule of self defence.



What about poomsae? Poomsae starts with your hands around your waist. Does that goes against every rule of self defense as well?




ralphmcpherson said:


> Tks is a martial art, it teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner,



Is that what a martial art is to you, something that teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner? 




ralphmcpherson said:


> olympic tkd is a game and does not even begin to resemble tkd. I have nothing against olympic tkd and i admire the athleticism and endurance required to do such a sport, but to call it a martial art is just misleading. Until they give 'sport tkd' a separate name there just wont be unification because its like saying tennis and squash are the same thing because they both use a raquet.



The "Do" suffix on martial arts comes from japanese martial arts; and the funny thing about that is that the original use of it was for sports, like Judo and Kendo. Those "sports" were derived from "martial arts" of Jujitsu and Kenjutsu. So if you want to do martial "arts" for quick and brutal self defense, then change the name of your art to Tae Kwon Sool, Sool being the korean pronunciation for the Japanese term Jitsu.

Jitsu or Sool is the term for "art" in martial art, so in a small sense, you are correct. But to say that Do = Art in martial art, that is incorrect.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The funny thing is that my daughter had been doing tkd for a couple of years when the last olympics was on. I was sitting and watching the tkd and she came in and watched it with me and after about 15 minutes she said "wow, this looks cool, whats the name of this sport?". She actually does tkd and yet it is unrecognisable to her. The same reason our GM severed all ties with the kukkiwon 10 years ago.




Frankly, this sounds more like a personal problem for your GM more than anything else, that his style of Taekwondo is so different than what was shown at the Olympics that he chose to isolate you and brainwash you into believing that the undoubtably obsolete incarnation that you are doing is somehow the "real" martial art of Taekwondo, and everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about, including but not limited to the Kukkiwon. 

I really have a hard time understanding why people do such things.

And he probably severed all ties with the Kukkiwon because he got all the rank that he could out of them, and he didn't want to send the meager testing fee to promote sincere students such as yourself. it's quite a common practice, at least in the US, but I think the internet is changing things for the better.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> If you don't do "sport tkd", then how can you make a comparison?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You obviously cannot see the difference between sport and martial tkd and you are entitled to your opinion. I just read through the thread and I am glad to see that most others here can clearly see the diifference. For a moment there I had to check it wasnt april fools day because I couldnt believe anybody in their right mind could possibly not see the multitude of differences between the two.Actually post #28 pretty much sums it up. But as I say, you are more than welcome to your point of view.


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> No difference between the art and the sport?  Tell me, where in the traditional art side of things has hurling yourself into your opponent into a clench position from 8 feet away with one leg raised in a defensive position ever been taught?




I don't know. But tell me, when was that ever taught in "sport"?


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## puunui (Dec 14, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You obviously cannot see the difference between sport and martial tkd and you are entitled to your opinion.




No, what I cannot see is the logic or reasoning behind your opinion. That's why I asked you those questions. But if you do not wish to answer those, then that's ok, since you've obviously made your mind up and nothing will change it, even if you cannot articulate the reasons for holding the opinions that you do.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> No, what I cannot see is the logic or reasoning behind your opinion. That's why I asked you those questions. But if you do not wish to answer those, then that's ok, since you've obviously made your mind up and nothing will change it, even if you cannot articulate the reasons for holding the opinions that you do.


No offence but I just wont waste my time. What I think or you think wont change anything and certainly wont affect my tkd training. We could have a 4 page back and forther but you wont see my opinion and I wont see yours. I have just read through all of your posts on the subject and its obvious we wont agree. I respect your opinion but certainly cant agree with it and in all honesty the less I say on this subject the better. Cheers.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Interesting perspective.... one I have not heard before... or much less given any thought about.  Day one was hands up, but I can see the idea of hands down not to alert one of your intentions or defense. interesting point of view.


I made a similar observation of hands down in a thread some time back regarding punches being thrown from the hips instead of from a guard up position.  After all, we do tend to walk about in our daily lives with our hands at our sides.  

Hands down to hide intentions is not a factor in WTF sparring, however; no meaningful hand attacks are allowed and what are allowed can be directed only to the body anyway, so guarding the head from the fists at close range (the primary reason for a hands up guard) is not a factor.  Also, the hands at the side guard the body from kicks to some extent, which is far more important under the WTF rule set.

So far as I know, taekwondo is the only martial art who's sport aspect emphasizes a hands down guard in competition.  This is mainly because WTF taekwondo is one of the few martial sports with little to no hand usage.  Were the tournament rules to allow hand strikes to the head, I'd guarantee that the guard would change.

Also, while the poomsae may start off in a hands down position (joon-bi), they don't stay down; they tend to stay mid to shoulder level during the execution of all of the kicking.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMhY2Ioeof8&NR=1

Any meaningful attempts to relate the sport directly to self defense fall short because the sport is way too focused and doesn't account for many of the very obvious things that can happen in an actual fight (such as what to do when an opponent gets inside of your guard and starts punching your face or when he kicks your non kicking leg).  

I don't see this as bad; its a sport after all, and no pretense is made to relate it to SD.  

But to the eyes of many well informed people who know what they're looking at (as opposed to armchair fighters who never take a class but watch UFC fights and thus think themselves expert), it is a sport that has a marked difference from the rest of the art.  Puunui does not see it that way, but he is probably the only person that I have conversed with who does not.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2010)

puunui said:


> The "Do" suffix on martial arts comes from japanese martial arts; and the funny thing about that is that the original use of it was for sports, like Judo and Kendo. Those "sports" were derived from "martial arts" of Jujitsu and Kenjutsu. So if you want to do martial "arts" for quick and brutal self defense, then change the name of your art to Tae Kwon Sool, Sool being the korean pronunciation for the Japanese term Jitsu.
> 
> Jitsu or Sool is the term for "art" in martial art, so in a small sense, you are correct. But to say that Do = Art in martial art, that is incorrect.



This is not entirely accurate.  

Do = way, and implies a philosophical/spiritual element.  It was used to denote that the arts focus had shifted to self perfection and really had nothing to do with sport.  This was done because Koryo arts had fallen out of favor with the new government in the late ninteenth century.   

'Do' was added to 'karate' by Funakoshi in order to get his Karate into the Japanese school system, but there was no sportive element at that point.  Kendo did not begin as a sport either, nor was it called kendo until the thirties.  The shinai and bogu were developed well before kendo and before the nineteenth century as a means of allowing samurai to practice killing blows without crippling each other.  Until the thirties, it was called gekkiken, not kendo.

Judo was called judo for a variety of reasons, but the do was also not directly related to sport.  Sport and competition were, however viewed as means of self improvement, and so a sportive element did segue with the 'do' designation.

Plenty of 'do' arts have no sportive element whatsoever.  Aikido is a do art due to Ueshiba's religious views.  Hapkido, Aikido's Korean cousin, is a 'do' art that traditionally has no sportive element either. 

Sports oriented martial arts are, with the exception of judo and kendo, more of a post war development.  

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2010)

not to mention that its called FIST foot way and yet rarely, if ever, scores punches. We spend a great deal of each class working on punching and yet the sport version, by not scoring them, is obviously discouraging them.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 14, 2010)

Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me?  I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less?  

Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class.  It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years.  Would I like to move up in dan rank?  Yes.  But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me?  I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less?
> 
> Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class.  It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years.  Would I like to move up in dan rank?  Yes.  But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.


We are in the same situation. And that is exactly what our GM says. He stuck it out for as long as he could but as the focus shifted more and more toward the sport and they started telling him how to run his club he finally just cracked and ceased to be involved with them. I think it was about the time they brought in the taegeks and told him that he should stop teaching the palgwes that he realised he had 4000 students, a heap of very good instructors that he had personally trained since white belt that he realised he didnt need them telling him how to run his club. From memory, a very average student of the club who he constantly failed for 3rd dan went on a trip to korea and suddenly arrived back with a nice new stripe on his belt. I wasnt with the club back when this happened but by all reports our GM absolutely hit the roof when that happened.


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## d1jinx (Dec 14, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me? I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less? .


 
NO.



bluewaveschool said:


> Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class. It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years. Would I like to move up in dan rank? Yes. But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.


 

The KKW doesn't tell you how to run your school. They don't tell you what to teach. What they do is set a "MINIMUM" guideline for rank within "THEIR" curriculum. No one has to participate. Those that choose to does the material the KKW requires such as the Taeguek poomse's. They "Standardize" what they Require. If you wish to be recognized by the KKW, you have to meet thier MINIMUM requirements. Too many people often confuse the minimums with "THE ONLY THING NEEDED". People need to understand that because KKW says the MINIMUM time required for 1st to 2nd, that it doesn't mean you are automatically to be promoted 1 year from the date you recieved 1st Dan.

As a KKW participant/follower/instructor/ whatever.... it is the one who is promoting you responsibility to ensure you have met whatever requirements that instructor has AND KKW minimums. It is not always the case and too any instructors promote GARBAGE rather than quality... hence the watered down Black Belts we see today.

If you are an Instructor who promotes through KKW... IT IS YOUR OBLIGATION TO KKW AND THE ART OF TAEKWONDO that the person you are promoting is ready and qualified to be a ____ DAN BB.


If you are not KKW, then you are whatever style of TKD you do. You are not any less a Whatever because you do not follow KKW. 



Example... Bruce Lee was first a gung fu student. However his experiences led him to develope his own style of Martial Art. If you are a student of Bruce Lee, you are a student of HIS style. Do not claim GUNG FU because your instructor firts learned it and has peices of it within his style. You are still a Martial Artist, just not a certified Shoalin Gung fu Master.... see my point?

So if you do a style that may use Taeguek patterns, but do not follow KKW's curriculum or are certified as a KKW BB, dont claim to be a MASTER of Kukki-tkd. Nothing wrong with what you do or where the roots came from. I have known instructors who took bits and pieces of what they approved and taught in thier schools. My first instructors made us learn both Chun-gi and taeguek il jang then up thru BB. I dont claim to be ITF. 

Nothing wrong with not belonging to "A" MOTHERSHIP of any kind. it doesn't stop you from being a taekwondo-er.


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## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> So if you do a style that may use Taeguek patterns, but do not follow KKW's curriculum or are certified as a KKW BB, dont claim to be a MASTER of Kukki-tkd. .


 
By this I mean, I have seen and know of schools who do a version of the taegueks. They have differences such as stances, where the Kiap is, and hell some even add extra and different moves. They do a modified Taeguek/Koryo/GuemGang/Taebeak/Pyongyong/Sipjin/JiTae... The instructors are not KKW certified nor do they certify or attempt to do it the KKW way...They SHOULD NOT CLAIM TO BE KKW.

Now someone who does those forms by the standards KKW sets, but adds their own curriculum to include different forms and versions of anything else they want, they still do the requirements set by KKW and certify their students through KKW.... is a KKW school and should claim it.

Everyone should go above and beyong to enbsure their students get the most out of thier training.

Make any sense?


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do = way, and implies a philosophical/spiritual element.  It was used to denote that the arts focus had shifted to self perfection and really had nothing to do with sport.  This was done because Koryo arts had fallen out of favor with the new government in the late ninteenth century.



I wrote all these posts about Do vs. Jutsu but I can't seem to find them. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> 'Do' was added to 'karate' by Funakoshi in order to get his Karate into the Japanese school system, but there was no sportive element at that point.



That's not what GM LEE Won Kuk said. He said Funakoshi Sensei (as opposed to "Funakoshi") wanted to model his art after Judo. that is why he adopted the uniform, the belt rank system. Kano Sensei was all about sport, because he was enamored with the Olympic movement and was even successful in getting the Olympic Games to Tokyo in 1940. It was during that 1938 when he died I believe. 

And Do was added to Karate at the same time that the character of "empty" was added. Previously the art in Okinawa was known as Toudejutsu, pronounced karatejutsu in japanese. or tangsoo sool in korean. When the character for tang was changed to empty, the character for jutsu was changed to do. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Kendo did not begin as a sport either, nor was it called kendo until the thirties.  The shinai and bogu were developed well before kendo and before the nineteenth century as a means of allowing samurai to practice killing blows without crippling each other.  Until the thirties, it was called gekkiken, not kendo.



that is interesting but in his interview book, Nakayama Sensei speaks about how the karate students at the time wanted more competition orientedness in karate because of how they learned kendo and judo, with their competition focus. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Judo was called judo for a variety of reasons, but the do was also not directly related to sport.  Sport and competition were, however viewed as means of self improvement, and so a sportive element did segue with the 'do' designation.



the point is that do arts were seen less for its combative element more so its self development and self discovery aspects. Of course you can use the techniques for self defense in do arts if you wanted to, but this is an entirely different thing than saying a do art such as judo, kendo or taekwondo is first and foremost a self defense oriented combat art where your goal is to destroy your enemy. If you want that, go for a jutsu art. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Plenty of 'do' arts have no sportive element whatsoever.  Aikido is a do art due to Ueshiba's religious views.  Hapkido, Aikido's Korean cousin, is a 'do' art that traditionally has no sportive element either.



From an old post I wrote back in 2001:

> I also think that other arts also changed from Jutsu to Do arts but
>  did not adopt the original sport mentality that Kano Sensei advocated,
>  and this muddied the picture so to speak. Aikido, for example, did
> not  have a sporting aspect, at least not one advocated or approved
> of by the  founder, Ueshiba Sensei, and yet it is a Do art. The
> similarity with  Judo or Kendo though was that Aikido at that point
> was no longer to be  considered a "combat" or battlefield martial art,
> like its predecessor,  Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, but rather was a vehicle
> for self discovery and  self enlightenment. However, Ueshiba Sensei
> chose to do this through a  quasi religious or religious vehicle, rather
> than through sport, due to  his involvement and participation in the Omoto
> religion.
>  
> And in doing so, Ueshiba Sensei broadened and changed the
>  definition of Do martial arts, to include non-sport oriented practices.
>  Prior to Aikido, Do martial arts were sport martial arts, Judo, Kendo
>  and Karate Do included. In a sense, he was riding the wave of the
>  popularity of Do arts or the era, but at the same time, changed the
>  rules a little, like all visionaries tend to do.

Hapkido, at least according to GM JI Han Jae, is not an art in which you ever hurt your opponent. We never break joints for example, or cause someone to be permanently injured. the reason GM Ji gives is that we do not want someone out there who 40 years down the road is dealing with an arthritic joint and remembering that we were the cause of that. So in that regard, Hapkido also has a philosophical basis that removes it from the combat or warfare oriented jutsu arts, which are really meant to kill your opponent. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sports oriented martial arts are, with the exception of judo and kendo, more of a post war development.



well, so is taekwondo. 

Over and above all of this is a point that some people tend to forget, and that is that Japan and Korea are relatively safe countries such that the need for self defense skills is almost non-existent. I remember going to Japan for the first time seeing five year old children riding the bullet train by themselves, without fear that someone would kidnap them or do them harm. This was a while ago, and maybe things have changed. Also in Korea, I never ever feel like there would ever be a situation where I would have to defend myself.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> By this I mean, I have seen and know of schools who do a version of the taegueks. They have differences such as stances, where the Kiap is, and hell some even add extra and different moves. They do a modified Taeguek/Koryo/GuemGang/Taebeak/Pyongyong/Sipjin/JiTae... The instructors are not KKW certified nor do they certify or attempt to do it the KKW way...They SHOULD NOT CLAIM TO BE KKW.
> 
> Make any sense?



The problem with that is that the students don't usually know any better and may actually believe that what they are doing is the way it is supposed to be done. Perhaps the head instructor or the one that made the changes knew better, but over the generations, that got lost, and now you have these mutations who truly believe what they are doing is the correct way. I come up against that all the time, usually from people who argue I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about and yet refuse to provide any sort of factual basis for their strongly held, down to the middle of my bones, beliefs. 

One example, long wide stances. Al Cole and I brought that topic up ten years ago and people were extremely angry that we would have the nerve to suggest that what they learned wasn't correct. We asked to to simply look at the Kukkiwon Textbook if they didn't believe us and they wouldn't even do that. Or if they did look, they felt that the Kukkiwon was wrong. 

But I do believe that the internet is changing things and more people are doing google or youtube searches and finding out for themselves. Generally it is the younger generation who are not so set in their ways that are more open to change.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> The problem with that is that the students don't usually know any better and may actually believe that what they are doing is the way it is supposed to be done. Perhaps the head instructor or the one that made the changes knew better, but over the generations, that got lost, and now you have these mutations who truly believe what they are doing is the correct way. I come up against that all the time, usually from people who argue I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about and yet refuse to provide any sort of factual basis for their strongly held, down to the middle of my bones, beliefs.
> 
> One example, long wide stances. Al Cole and I brought that topic up ten years ago and people were extremely angry that we would have the nerve to suggest that what they learned wasn't correct. We asked to to simply look at the Kukkiwon Textbook if they didn't believe us and they wouldn't even do that. Or if they did look, they felt that the Kukkiwon was wrong.
> 
> But I do believe that the internet is changing things and more people are doing google or youtube searches and finding out for themselves. Generally it is the younger generation who are not so set in their ways that are more open to change.


The internet also has an adverse effect for the kukkiwon at times. Now young people do their research before joining a club and Id love a dollar for every new student we get who says "Im looking for a tkd club that is not affiliated with the kukkiwon", most of our students chose our club because they dont want to learn "sport tkd". We also get a lot of tkd students who change over to our club once they realise their old club taught the sport version.


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## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> The problem with that is that the students don't usually know any better and may actually believe that what they are doing is the way it is supposed to be done. Perhaps the head instructor or the one that made the changes knew better, but over the generations, that got lost, and now you have these mutations who truly believe what they are doing is the correct way. I come up against that all the time, usually from people who argue I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about and yet refuse to provide any sort of factual basis for their strongly held, down to the middle of my bones, beliefs.
> 
> One example, long wide stances. Al Cole and I brought that topic up ten years ago and people were extremely angry that we would have the nerve to suggest that what they learned wasn't correct. We asked to to simply look at the Kukkiwon Textbook if they didn't believe us and they wouldn't even do that. Or if they did look, they felt that the Kukkiwon was wrong.
> 
> But I do believe that the internet is changing things and more people are doing google or youtube searches and finding out for themselves. Generally it is the younger generation who are not so set in their ways that are more open to change.


 
Agree 100%.

I am guilty of this also.  I did the long stances because thats how I was taught.  Then a few years back went to a KKW taught Poomse seminar and was shown the way they do it.  asked when it had changed and was told it had not changed and was the same way for quite some time.  When I got home, I looked in my KKW textbook that i have had since it came out in 1996 and guess what.... yup, just like they showed us in the seminar!

And the Internet has shrunk the world and expanded knowledge...


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## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The internet also has an adverse effect for the kukkiwon at times. Now young people do their research before joining a club and Id love a dollar for every new student we get who says "Im looking for a tkd club that is not affiliated with the kukkiwon", most of our students chose our club because they dont want to learn "sport tkd". We also get a lot of tkd students who change over to our club once they realise their old club taught the sport version.


 
Had you (or them) ever trained with or been taught by any of the KKW instructors from KKW, you would quickly understand...  THEY ARE NOT SPORT TKD.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Had you (or them) ever trained with or been taught by any of the KKW instructors from KKW, you would quickly understand...  THEY ARE NOT SPORT TKD.


I can only go on what Ive been told by students who come over from kukki clubs. They have told me that a large portion of their training is dedicated to competition style sparring, they also said they are heavily encouraged to enter tournaments. Another problem they have is the lack of training dedicated to punching, some have said they would spend about 10% of their total training time doing punching. Also, they say high kicks are encouraged as extra points are apparantly scored for kicks to the head, we do some high kicks (as that is tkd) but the majority of our kicking is aimed at the chest or lower because our main aim is always self defence. They have also said that it usually takes about 2 years to get a black belt which they werent comfortable with, believing at least a 4-5 years of training should be done to get a black belt. I know nothing about taeguek forms but they also complain of the short stances and believe the taegeks are too easy compared to palgwes. All this is just heresay, however, because I have not trained at a kukki club but I have heard these things more than just a couple of times. Bear in mind also, that we were a kukki club up until about 10 years ago so many of our higher dans have kukki certification up to a certain point where we ceased our affiliation. When the direction of tkd changed (as they put it) the decision to leave was not made lightly, our GM and about 30 instructors discussed it at length before finally leaving.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

My post was in jest, I seriously do not care if someone doesn't want to respect what I know because I don't have a piece of paper.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> not to mention that its called FIST foot way and yet rarely, if ever, scores punches.



No, it's not.  If you want to translate it in to one word meanings like that it would be Foot FIST Way - fist is second.  I'm sure you can look up the Hanja if you like : &#36294;&#25331;&#36947;.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> No, it's not.  If you want to translate it in to one word meanings like that it would be Foot FIST Way - fist is second.  I'm sure you can look up the Hanja if you like : &#36294;&#25331;&#36947;.


I was more referring to the fact that "fist" is in the title, not necessarilly the order its written in. I would assume from the title that equal emphasis would be placed on kicking and punching and I know of many schools where that definetely is not the case. Im also talking about hand techs/punches being practiced outside of forms as it is with kicking drills. Some schools only rely on forms for teaching any sort of punching.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I was more referring to the fact that "fist" is in the title, not necessarilly the order its written in.



Ah OK, when you capitalised the first word it came across as meaning "it's the first word in the name but it's not the most important in practice".



ralphmcpherson said:


> I would assume from the title that equal emphasis would be placed on kicking and punching



I wouldn't, normally in a list of things the less important items are to the right.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I know of many schools where that definetely is not the case. Im also talking about hand techs/punches being practiced outside of forms as it is with kicking drills. Some schools only rely on forms for teaching any sort of punching.



I would say I train at a fairly balanced school: we practice poomsae, step sparring, self defence, kyukpa (sometimes) and sparring.  When we spar, we use WTF rules.  The majority of our punching practice comes from poomsae and step sparring.

We certainly don't practice punching drills in the same way we practice kicking drills (advanced movement, techniques from sparring stance rather than a more traditional/static stance).

Then again, if I want to learn how to punch better (beyond the practice as part of sparring drills and poomsae) then I'll learn boxing/thai-boxing.  I don't consider Taekwondo to be the ultimate rounded martial art (and I don't think anyone should) so if I want to learn something that's outside of Taekwondo's focus, I'll learn it outside of Taekwondo.

Just my 2p-worth.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> the point is that do arts were seen less for its combative element more so its self development and self discovery aspects. Of course you can use the techniques for self defense in do arts if you wanted to, but this is an entirely different thing than saying a do art such as judo, kendo or taekwondo is first and foremost a self defense oriented combat art where your goal is to destroy your enemy. If you want that, go for a jutsu art.


For the most part, I agree with your post and I think that we're on the same page regarding do/jutsu/sool. My only point was that 'do' was not intended to be exclusive to sport, but more that sport was an extention of 'do.' Self development and self discovery became the focus over time, though in truth, the self defense element remained pretty strongly as well.

As to destroying your enemy, well, that is another topic. I draw a distinction between self defense and destruction of my enemy. It is not my personal contention that taekwondo is focused on destruction of the enemy, though the tools to accomplish that are most assuredly found within the system. 

If that is what someone wants, and if they feel that they are getting that at whatever taekwondo school they train at, then that is fine by me. People take up taekwondo for a variety of reasons and fighting happens to be one of them. Others just want to lose weight. The fact that there is room in the art for olympic hopefuls, fitness buffs, people looking to increase their confidence, and those who want to hammer-fist their enemies into dust demonstrates the breadth of the art, which is a huge positive in my book.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> No, it's not. If you want to translate it in to one word meanings like that it would be Foot FIST Way - fist is second. I'm sure you can look up the Hanja if you like : &#36294;&#25331;&#36947;.


Actually, I believe that the hanja translates to 'trample with the foot and strike with the fist way.'  Tae and kwon are, if I am not mistaken, verbs rather than nouns.  There are separate words for the actual 'foot' and 'fist'.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me? I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less?


 
As you have no parent org, it makes you an independent.

Unified taekwondo is a referrence to the unification of the nine kwans into the Kukkiwon and the subsequent retirement of the kwans, not a universal unification. The ITF is a separate entity and is not included in what Puunui is calling 'unified.'

The ATA is an entirely self contained organization that broke off from the ITF and is likewise, not a part of what he is describing as unified.

Then there are various smaller orgs, such as the National Progressive TKD (federation?), the ITA, and whatever Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho are doing.

After those, you have various independent schools who use established forms, usually chang hon, palgwe, or taegeuk. And that is were your school fits in. 

Whether this is lesser or greater kind of depends on one's perspective, though personally, I don't view it in that light.



bluewaveschool said:


> Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class. It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years. Would I like to move up in dan rank? Yes. But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.


Well, as mentioned, the Kukkiwon doesn't really tell you how to run your school.  Being a KKW school means that *you* are a KKW sadan or higher.  A KKW sadan can sign off on dan certs up to samdan.  But your school is not registered with the Kukkiwon nor the WTF.  So if someone says that they are a Kukkiwon school, what they mean is that the school owner is a kukkiwon sadan or higher.  Likewise, if someone says that they are a WTF school, chances are it means that they are also a KKW sadan or higher and that the practice WTF sparring in their school.  Most of the time, KKW and WTF are used interchangeably.  Now, you can be registered with USAT.

As has already been mentioned, the Kukkiwon does not direct your school.  They are actually pretty hands off.

Now, I do own the Kukkiwon text book, and I've gotta say, it is probably the best investment in a martial arts book that I've ever made.  If you consider the defined curriculum in the textbook to be 'telling you how to run your class,' I'd say read it first.  It is an absolutely invaluable resource, and my purchase and subsequent reading of it has reignited my passion for taekwondo, something that was on the wane for over a year for various reasons.

The Kukkiwon does not ask that you teach only what is in the textbook either, but that you teach what is in the textbook plus any unique curriculum that your school may have.

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Actually, I believe that the hanja translates to 'trample with the foot and strike with the fist way.'  Tae and kwon are, if I am not mistaken, verbs rather than nouns.  There are separate words for the actual 'foot' and 'fist'.



You're absolutely right, I just meant that you can check that I haven't reversed the order of the pertinent points of foot and fist.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, as mentioned, the Kukkiwon doesn't really tell you how to run your school.


 
From what I have seen very few of the bigger organizations get into the micromanaging business. From my experience, the ITF has a more defined syllabus than the KKW does but even so there's nothing approaching telling one how to "run their class." Probably the closest I've seen to anyone coming to this is the ATA (from what I've heard) and Kuk Sool Won. Even with them I don't think there's anything like a set of leson plans one _must_ follow, however. 



> Now, I do own the Kukkiwon text book, and I've gotta say, it is probably the best investment in a martial arts book that I've ever made. If you consider the defined curriculum in the textbook to be 'telling you how to run your class,' I'd say read it first. It is an absolutely invaluable resource, and my purchase and subsequent reading of it has reignited my passion for taekwondo, something that was on the wane for over a year for various reasons.


 
Interesting. I haven't done KKW TKD in years but I;d be interested in hearing what you think makes this book such an invluable resource. Is the material that it covers? How i's presented? The breadth of technique? Something else?

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Interesting. I haven't done KKW TKD in years but I;d be interested in hearing what you think makes this book such an invluable resource. Is the material that it covers? How i's presented? The breadth of technique? Something else?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


A combination of things, really.  I liked how the material was presented.  It was laid out in various sections beginning with stances, hand strikes, leg/foot strikes, blocks, and then various strikes with both hands/arms and feet/legs.  

The next section was poomsae.  It began with a very detailed description of what a taegeuk is and what a poomsae is.  Then broke down each of the poomsae.  The photographs are excellent and well matched to the text, making it easy to follow.  At the end of each poomae, the application of the poomsae actions are delineated.  

After that came sections on competition and demonstration which I have not yet fully read.  

None of the information was 'new' and there were not any major revelations, but the book really is well put together and for whatever reason, just clicked.  As an instructor and as a Kukki practitioner, it makes an excellent resource.  

One other observation is that it is in both Engllish and Korean, which I also found helpful.

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> None of the information was 'new' and there were not any major revelations, but the book really is well put together and for whatever reason, just clicked.  As an instructor and as a Kukki practitioner, it makes an excellent resource.
> 
> One other observation is that it is in both Engllish and Korean, which I also found helpful.



Out of interest, have you seen GM Kang Ik Pil's book The Explanation of Taekwondo Poomsae, 2nd edition?  That's another great book - full of lots of tiny detail on accuracy in poomsae and it has multi-photo pictures of some of the movements to show the shape of it during movement rather than just the finished position.

I'd agree with you though, the KKW Taekwondo textbook is excellent!

I always thought the Cho Dan Bo (provisional black belt) was an ITF thing until I saw it in the KKW textbook (it's only mentioned once though).


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 15, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> I always thought the Cho Dan Bo (provisional black belt) was an ITF thing until I saw it in the KKW textbook (it's only mentioned once though).


 
As far as I am aware, the ITF has never had a "provisional" black belt rank. Once you're an il dan you're an il dan.

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (Dec 15, 2010)

Ok I have a few question about sport VS. non-sport, forget about sparring, one steps or any self defense. Lets talk about poomsae for a minute, the WTF have came up with rule sets over what they call sport poomsae, does this not seperate one from the other? Lets talk Koryo for a good example, nobody I know throws the first two kicks to the floor and to the cieling, KKW is actually the knee and the head, if the WTF and the KKW are suppose to be one why is it the WTF wants the flashy kicks and not the KKW standards? I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I have a few question about sport VS. non-sport, forget about sparring, one steps or any self defense. Lets talk about poomsae for a minute, the WTF have came up with rule sets over what they call sport poomsae, does this not seperate one from the other? Lets talk Koryo for a good example, nobody I know throws the first two kicks to the floor and to the cieling, KKW is actually the knee and the head, if the WTF and the KKW are suppose to be one why is it the WTF wants the flashy kicks and not the KKW standards? I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.


Realistically, once you start competing in forms, you need more than just 'correctness' of form.  I haven't really looked over the differences between sport poomsae (seems an oxymoron to me) and regular poomsae because forms competion is not my focus.  If it ever becomes my focus, however, I will research it more thoroughly.

Personally, I see the concept of sport poomsae as an aesthetic extension of the traditional poomsae for the competition environment.  As I am not currently competing, it really isn't a factor.

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> As far as I am aware, the ITF has never had a "provisional" black belt rank. Once you're an il dan you're an il dan.



I always thought it was non-Kukkiwon that had chodan-bo and assumed it was ITF as they're the other "major" group.  I guess it's just an old thing that still has a reference in the Kukkiwon book but has generally been dropped (but kept going by some old school instructors).


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## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I have a few question about sport VS. non-sport, forget about sparring, one steps or any self defense. Lets talk about poomsae for a minute, the WTF have came up with rule sets over what they call sport poomsae, does this not seperate one from the other? Lets talk Koryo for a good example, nobody I know throws the first two kicks to the floor and to the cieling, KKW is actually the knee and the head, if the WTF and the KKW are suppose to be one why is it the WTF wants the flashy kicks and not the KKW standards? I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.


 
thats the new arguement.  Do you do them the way KKW says, or the way WTF says.  They are _"supposed"_ to be the same.... but we see differences.  

In the KKW Master course, they talked about that and how its coming from the split between KKW and WTF.  They said KKW invents "things" then gives it to the WTF who may modify it for the "sport".  such as sparring and now poomse.  No clear answer was given.

But like everything else going on between the 2, why would you not expect the same in poomse?


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

The "provisional" black belt rank may be an ATA thing, as it's something that my school does.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> No offence but I just wont waste my time. What I think or you think wont change anything and certainly wont affect my tkd training. We could have a 4 page back and forther but you wont see my opinion and I wont see yours. I have just read through all of your posts on the subject and its obvious we wont agree. I respect your opinion but certainly cant agree with it and in all honesty the less I say on this subject the better. Cheers.




It's not about whether you change my opinion or whether I change yours. Other people may be interested in the discussion and want to hear both of our positions, so they can draw their own conclusions. The discussion isn't only for you and me, but rather the entire membership of MT. Or at least that is how I look at it when I post here.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.




We are looking at things from two different perspectives. My perspective is what the pioneers stated is Taekwondo, that it is all unified and not separated into discrete parts. You are looking at what the non-pioneer juniors are doing to Taekwondo, which is to separate things, which causes confusion and in my opinion, causes the eventual destruction of Taekwondo.


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## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

if I may give this analogy to kind of explain the sport/KKW thing....

Its like NASCAR racing.  Somewhere before the actual racing began there were drivers who knew about driving.  They knew left turn, right turn, back-up, signal, parralel park, 3 point turn....etc.  all the fundamentals of driving.  Then one day they decided to have a driving contest to display thier driving skills.  Using the fundamentals to be a good racer and win the competition.  Over time the sport of racing evolved into NASCAR.  A race that only involves left hand turns and going fast.  No basic fundamentals are required although most have mastered the basics.  Soon you have billy-bob who never drove a day in his life jumping in a car and only learning how to make a left hand turn and step on the gas.  And he becomes efficient at it.  Eventually this may catch on and others skip the fundamentals and focus ONLY on the racing aspect....

In the begining, it was to showcase skills and techniques.... somewhere along the way it evolved into what it is...  

So does that mean one cannot learn the fundamentals AND perfect racing?  or should they only focus on racing and ignore the regular stuff like making a right turn?

whatever they do and However they got there.... they are still classified as "drivers".



and for the record.... I HATE NASCAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl:


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

Didn't several of the pioneers abandon Choi and the ITF during the 60s and 70s, and at least one kwan founder refused to join the other kwan heads to unify?  Would we even have a 'unified' TKD (KKW TKD) today if the Korean Government had kept their nose out of things?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Didn't several of the pioneers abandon Choi and the ITF during the 60s and 70s, and at least one kwan founder refused to join the other kwan heads to unify? Would we even have a 'unified' TKD (KKW TKD) today if the Korean Government had kept their nose out of things?


Probably not.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Hands down to hide intentions is not a factor in WTF sparring, however; no meaningful hand attacks are allowed and what are allowed can be directed only to the body anyway, so guarding the head from the fists at close range (the primary reason for a hands up guard) is not a factor.



You guard your head from kicks though. Many competitors go off the line to the head. the hands down position hides your intentions in a taekwondo sparring situation in a similar fashion that it hides intentions in a self defense situation, because it relaxes an opponent and makes them think you aren't going to attack or aren't putting pressure on them. It is a psychological strategy that many people fall for. You'd be amazed. Easier to show that discuss in words.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> So far as I know, taekwondo is the only martial art who's sport aspect emphasizes a hands down guard in competition.  This is mainly because WTF taekwondo is one of the few martial sports with little to no hand usage.  Were the tournament rules to allow hand strikes to the head, I'd guarantee that the guard would change.



Taekwondo doesn't emphasize having your hands down. People do it because they understand the concept that you don't put your "shields up" to use a star trek analogy, if you are not in red alert. In boxing for example, boxers keep their hands up primarily because they are standing within striking range of their opponent at all times. The ones that went in and out, like Roy Jones or Muhammed Ali, tended to keep their hands lower. 





Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, while the poomsae may start off in a hands down position (joon-bi), they don't stay down; they tend to stay mid to shoulder level during the execution of all of the kicking.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMhY2Ioeof8&NR=1



You are assuming that Taekwondo competitors keep their hands down even when they are in kicking distance of their opponent. the fact of the matter is since the increase in points for head kicks, and the failure of lajust to score points to the body, competitors have been keeping their hands up to guard their head because that is the only point that often gets scored. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Any meaningful attempts to relate the sport directly to self defense fall short because the sport is way too focused and doesn't account for many of the very obvious things that can happen in an actual fight (such as what to do when an opponent gets inside of your guard and starts punching your face or when he kicks your non kicking leg).



Again, you are assuming that your opponent gets inside your guard and is able to get within range to punch your face. I think that is a very big assumption. Again it is easier and more believable to show in person than to discuss online. When I first opened my own dojang over twenty years ago, it was during an era where people would still come to "challenge" a new instructor. I would stand there with my arms at my sides and people (including students) would play what ifs with me, including what if your opponent punches you in the face. I can tell you that for the majority, once I started kicking them in the leg, their focus changed from punching me in the face to getting me to stop kicking their legs. 

In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside and tried his best to punch me in the face, I just did long off the line roundhouse to his leg or long padduh chagi to his leg. He kept coming and I just kept kicking his leg to the point where he was in tears. Finally I felt like enough was enough and so I faked to his leg, which drew both his hands down, and he lifted up his front leg, and I came over the top with a punch to his nose. But at the last minute, I pulled the punch and didn't follow through. He stood there with his broken bent nose, tears in his eyes, and yelled out "you broke my nose!". One drop of blood came out of one nostril, followed a few seconds later with a gush of blood all over his shirt. At this point, the security guard came, and asked me if he should call the police, to which I responded, "no need, I think our discussion is over." 

I can tell you numerous other similar stories from my own personal experience and the personal experiences of my students, both in or out of the ring. You might be concerned about keeping your hands up because of face punches, but we aren't. you may believe that tournament fighting is different from self defense, but we don't. it's all the same to us. If anything, street fights are much easier because you are generally fighting someone who is not trained all that much (maybe some training) and they have a distinct disadvantage because they don't know what we are about. In tournaments, especially high level tournaments, your opponents have video of you, know you and your style, and are specifically training year around to beat you. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> But to the eyes of many well informed people who know what they're looking at (as opposed to armchair fighters who never take a class but watch UFC fights and thus think themselves expert), it is a sport that has a marked difference from the rest of the art.  Puunui does not see it that way, but he is probably the only person that I have conversed with who does not.



The fact that I am the only one who you have conversed with who does not believe like you do only speaks to the fact that we speak to different people. I think the point that is being missed here is that this isn't my personal opinion, but rather it is the personal opinion of the pioneers who founded and created Taekwondo, including but not limited to practitioners such as GM LEE Won Kuk. 

Where did GM Lee get his ideas from? Here is a quote from JKA Chief Instructor NAKAYAMA Masatoshi Sensei: "During the years I was in college, Master Funakoshi developed and systematized Shotokan Karate into three basic area of training -- kihon, which is basic training in fundamentals; kata, which is formal exercises; and kumite, which is sparring. *He taught that these three areas are one and that they cannot be separated*."

Please note that Funakoshi Sensei does not mention or focus on self defense, but rather sparring, specifically competition sparring. 

That is the kind of practitioner that you are arguing with, Funakoshi Sensei and the pioneers of Taekwondo, who felt all aspects of the art are one and there is no distinction or separation. I am just the messenger. If you have a problem with Funakoshi Sensei's beliefs, then your problem is with him, not me.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> It's not about whether you change my opinion or whether I change yours. Other people may be interested in the discussion and want to hear both of our positions, so they can draw their own conclusions. The discussion isn't only for you and me, but rather the entire membership of MT. Or at least that is how I look at it when I post here.


. The points I would bring up to highlight the many differences have already been brought up at some point in this thread by others and you clearly have your own thoughts on the matter. I just didnt want the thread to keep going around in circles.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight?  I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.


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## d1jinx (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight? I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.


 
I encourage it.  Mercy is for the weak.  Strike First Strike hard, Show no Mercy.  Sweep the leg johny, sweep the leg....:rofl:

'jokin' of course.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> Please note that Funakoshi Sensei does not mention or focus on self defense, but rather sparring, specifically competition sparring.
> 
> That is the kind of practitioner that you are arguing with, Funakoshi Sensei and the pioneers of Taekwondo, who felt all aspects of the art are one and there is no distinction or separation. I am just the messenger. If you have a problem with Funakoshi Sensei's beliefs, then your problem is with him, not me.


I will read through the rest of your post and respond later, as I am short on time.  

In this last part, you seem to be assuming that I have a problem with the sport, sparring, or the detachment of sparring from SD.  I do not.  I simply see it as different from the rest of what I see in KKW taekwondo.  Not better or worse; just different.  

This last part also agrees with what I am saying; that WTF sparring really does not relate to self defense.  The primary point of my post is that the hands down postion in WTF competition in no way relates to real world self defense and is done for reasons that are specific to the rule set.  

As a general rule, sparring is used to foster a sense of competitiveness, and in this WTF sparring succeeds.  While ITF sparring is different from WTF, I recall someone stating that the General had considered the sparing portion to be essentially competition and the hoshinsul and one steps to be self defense.  If could remember who posted that and the thread, I'd quote it.

As far as who we each talk to, yes, I'd gather that we do talk to different people; in fact, I would hope that we do.  Part of the reason that I participate in these discussions is precisely because other participants talk to people that I do not.  

The majority of people that I converse with on the subject online are here at MT for what its worth.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight?  I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.



Dunno about the TKD pioneers, but a couple of the legends who predate the universal acceptance of karate as "karate-do" like Motobu, Choki and Kyan, Chotoku would probably have jumped in just for fun.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Didn't several of the pioneers abandon Choi and the ITF during the 60s and 70s, and at least one kwan founder refused to join the other kwan heads to unify?  Would we even have a 'unified' TKD (KKW TKD) today if the Korean Government had kept their nose out of things?




Moo Duk Kwan founder GM HWANG Kee refused to join because of his hatred of General Choi. But his students outvoted him and chose to join. The fact of the matter is most everyone wanted unification, including General Choi, it was just a matter of working it through. Read the Modern History translation and you will get a better picture, with actual quotes and insights from the pioneers. 

By the way, just to let you know since you are from the ATA lineage, ATA President GM LEE Haeng Ung was having very serious discussions with the Kukkiwon on how to assimilate the ATA such that ATA members could all receive Kukkiwon certification. The Kukkiwon and ATA were working very hard on making that a possibility. GM Lee contributed his business ideas to the Kukkiwon, such of which I believe became part of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course  curriculum. But he passed away before anything could get finalized. After GM Lee passed away, the deal fell through because I think the new leadership felt getting Kukkiwon for everyone would weaken the organization and they would lose out financially. So the idea was killed. But it was close though. 

I understand even General Choi wanted to "unify" with Kukki Taekwondo, which is one of the reasons why he gave it to North Korea's Mr. CHANG Ung. I believe that Mr. Chang, being an IOC member, could hopefully get a better deal for ITF members than if someone like his son (who I believe was convicted of conspiracy to assassinate the ROK President) could. 

There was some movement in this direction also, with Dr. Un Yong KIM sending olive branches to North Korea at the request of the ROK government. However, when the new ROK President came into power, he was from a different political party then Dr. Kim, so they trumped up some charges and hurt the most influential diplomat that Korea ever had, for stupid selfish political reasons. Later, the ROK government admitted, privately, that what was done to Dr. Kim was a terrible mistake that hurt Korea. but it was too late, the damage had been done.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight?  I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.




I didn't tell all of them every time I got into a fight, but when I did, most were interested in the result, and were not offended by the fact that I got into altercations. "If you don't test yourself in actual situations, then how do you know if your stuff works?" was the prevailing attitude. I was never kicked out of any martial arts school for getting into fights. 

I remember when I was training with GM JI Han Jae for example, I got into this altercation where I think I broke some guy's hand with a joint lock, and GM Ji was ok with the fighting and was happy that I prevailed, but was upset when he found out I may have broken the guy's wrist. I got a long speech after that about how Hapkido is for pain only and we do not break people's joints. I thought about that, which is why I pulled back at the last minute and didn't drive through on the punch to the nose. Afterward, one of the waitresses said the funniest part of that whole incident was the fact that the other guy was bleeding, crying and going on about his broken nose, while I was standing there, calm, not breathing hard and not even sweating, like nothing even happened. 

Here's another story, not really a fight, but a funny situation none the less. We were at nationals in cleavland back in 2001, we had a free day, so we went to an indians/yankee game. The game was sold out but scalpers were selling tickets. I negotiated a price with one, a really big scary looking man to tell you the truth. I gave him a couple hundred for the tickets, but the guy refused to give me my change. He was standing there yelling at me when I snatched the cash from his hand. At that point, I had both the tickets and my cash back, and he was standing there stunned, not knowing to do. I thought about walking away, and he probably wouldn't have done anything, but I instead gave him the exact amount and we went to watch the game. One of the Hawaii guys with me who I had coached the day before ended up winning the USOC volunteer coach of the year award last year. Anyone who knows him can probably ask him about that crazy day. He was pretty speechless himself at how I handled that situation, because before I did my snatch back, he was looking at me like we just lost $200 and what do we do now. 

Most of my instructors got into fights themselves and felt that you couldn't really be a martial arts instructor unless you had some actual fights under your belt. Or at least they looked at students who did get into situations differently than those who shied away from fights at any cost, like there was something unmanly about that. Most or all were old school, hard people who grew up during hard times and were involved in hard situations. It's sort of like the Army, where the soldiers who have combat ribbons or CIB are looked at one way, and those who do not, are looked at differently. 

Maybe it is just the mentality of where I grew up, here in Hawaii, where if you had a dispute with someone, it was perfectly acceptable to go do a one on one with them, with no one jumping in. I can only say that there is something about someone coming at you with everything that they have and me having to respond that is appealing to me, so much so that I chose a profession where that happens on a daily basis. We have a lot of Hawaii kids vying for spots on the national team and they have that same fighting spirit. I can see it in their eyes.  Hawaii has a long and proud history of great fighters in the USTU, and I am glad that tradition is still being carried on by the next generation.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

another quick story before I go to lunch. Back in the 1940's, GM HWANG Kee was telling all kinds of lies about his martial arts background, failing for example to acknowledge GM LEE Won Kuk as his teacher, or his teacher's teacher (GM Hwang learned from GM HYUN Jong Myung when both worked at the Seoul Station railroad). GM SON Duk Sung got so mad at that that he confronted GM Hwang about it, GM Hwang ran away, GM Son chased him down and beat GM Hwang up in I believe a high school playground. I asked GM LEE Won Kuk about that and he just smiled. I believe GM Lee felt that respect for the Chung Do Kwan membership oath was more important that avoiding fights at all costs.


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## RobinTKD (Dec 15, 2010)

Surely we've all been in fights at one time or another? I was in one about 4 weeks ago where the police got involved after I split the guys head open. In my defence, it was all self defence, originally I was trying to pull some guy off my brother who had attacked him as we were leaving a bar, then his mate got involved. It was all caught on cctv and the two guys who attacked us were both arrested. Though I came away with a lot of his blood on my shirt, a hole under my tongue when he fish hooked me, and my brother had a cracked rib, the guy who attacked my brother has a broken hand, and his mate has a huge scar down his face where I managed to throw him into a flowerpot out of wrist lock.

I don't condone such violence, but if I had a chance to change things, all I'd do is bite the gits finger off when he fish hooked me and beat him harder.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

One more story about a pioneer. My uncle, who lived next door to us, studied Kenpo under Professor William K.S. Chow in the 1950's. My uncle had introduced Professor Chow to his wife Patsy, and the Chows would frequently come over to my uncle's house. Professor Chow was very grateful to my uncle for a lot of different things and he would always invite my cousins and I to train with him for free. I was into different martial arts already so I always politely declined. 

Then one day I saw Professor Chow with his wife at ala moana center and he looked upset. There was a large group of teenagers making a scene, being loud and disruptive, so when I went to Professor Chow, he looked at me at asked me "Are they bothering you?!?! Are they bothering you!?!?!" He got that look in his eye like he wanted to mow them all down like they were blades of grass. I told him that not really, they weren't bothering me but I could understand how they were bothering him. We eventually walked away but I don't think that gang realized how close they were to getting weed whacked. 

And even though he didn't beat them all up, I kind of liked the fact that he was willing and ready to go for it. Soon after, I went to visit his class and ended up joining. I was super busy and already taking three other martial arts, so adding a fourth was burdensome, but I am glad I did because I learned a lot from him, including many things that he didn't really go over in class. Stuff like how to train when you are older, how important it is to take care of your joints, and that sort of thing, stuff that other instructors never spoke about or you couldn't get from a book or magazine.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight?  I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.


same would happen where I train. If there is any possible way of avoiding a fight then you avoid it. "Inviting a guy to meet you outside" is surely not doing your best to avoid fights. I would only ever fight if my families life is in danger, otherwise I see fighting as an extremely barbaric and immature way to settle a disagreement. Surely anybody who has evolved past the cave man days can see that.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

RobinTKD said:


> Surely we've all been in fights at one time or another?




I don't think so. Personally, I think the overwhelming majority of martial arts instructors never got into a fight in their lives, and if they did, it was once, maybe. Is that the kind of instructor that you want to learn self defense from? How about a surgeon? Rather have one who has operated before, or do you want the one who avoids surgery at all costs?


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If there is any possible way of avoiding a fight then you avoid it. "Inviting a guy to meet you outside" is surely not doing your best to avoid fights. I would only ever fight if my families life is in danger, otherwise I see fighting as an extremely barbaric and immature way to settle a disagreement. Surely anybody who has evolved past the cave man days can see that.




How many fights have you been in your life?


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I encourage it.  Mercy is for the weak.  Strike First Strike hard, Show no Mercy.  Sweep the leg johny, sweep the leg....:rofl: 'jokin' of course.




that's a good example though, because Mr. Miyagi didn't avoid fighting at all costs, and the funny thing is, he didn't distinguish between self defense and tournaments. To him, fighting is fighting.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> How many fights have you been in your life?


Got in a few when I was young and stupid but most of those I didnt throw the first punch and it was either fight or be beaten to a pulp. I also played rugby league where fights are just part of the sport and again, its either fight or prepare for a beating. I am 36 now and havent been in a fight since before I was 20. Ive had heaps of opportunities to fight, when hanging in pubs and clubs but unless someone throws the first punch I will avoid them at all costs. These days when I see two guys fighting I can only laugh, fighting (unless avoidable) is for meatheads in my opinion. People who fight because someone looked at their girlfriend or because someone called them a name or bumped into them etc should go and see a psychologist and get some anger management advice.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Got in a few when I was young and stupid




If you don't like to fight, then that's you. No problem. One question though, when you did get into the few fights that you did, did you keep your hands up?


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> If you don't like to fight, then that's you. No problem. One question though, when you did get into the few fights that you did, did you keep your hands up?


Sure did. My dad was a boxer and drilled the "guard up" thing since as young as I can remember.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Sure did. My dad was a boxer and drilled the "guard up" thing since as young as I can remember.




Ok, did your father tell you to have your "guard up" even if your opponent couldn't reach you with his punches to your head without first taking a step? Or was the "guard up" thing limited to when you were in punching range and/or you were actually engaged in the exchange of blows?


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> Ok, did your father tell you to have your "guard up" even if your opponent couldn't reach you with his punches to your head without first taking a step? Or was the "guard up" thing limited to when you were in punching range and/or you were actually engaged in the exchange of blows?


He is very much a believer in turning the other cheek and walking away, which is saying something because he was a very good boxer and would easily dispose of most people in a fight but I saw him turn the other cheek and walk away many times when I was young. He knew that once the hands go up you look like you want a fight, so if someone was so far out of range that they need to take a step just to get within a striking range then he would have probably said walk away. In saying that though, I dont think Ive ever seen two people standing a metre and a half apart yelling obscenities with their hand up as that would look pretty funny. Hands generally go up when the fight starts or when the distance closes. As far as tkd goes I always have a high guard even if the opponent is out of striking distance because once the sparring starts its on, unlike a real life altercation where there is still a good chance it wont be "on".


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

If a guy comes at me with his hands up like he wants to swing, my hands are going up BEFORE he gets into punching range.  Why?  Because he might have faster hands that me, because he might have a quick slide in step, hell he might jump forward at me.  My father is notorious in class for getting right outside punching range and throwing a lunging backfist.  If your hands are down because he's outside punching range, then you are taking a shot to the head.  If a 50 year old guy can move like that, a thug on the street can.  A shot to the body you can suck it up, shot to the head can make your mind cloudly for a split second too long.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> If a guy comes at me with his hands up like he wants to swing, my hands are going up BEFORE he gets into punching range.  Why?  Because he might have faster hands that me, because he might have a quick slide in step, hell he might jump forward at me.  My father is notorious in class for getting right outside punching range and throwing a lunging backfist.  If your hands are down because he's outside punching range, then you are taking a shot to the head.  If a 50 year old guy can move like that, a thug on the street can.  A shot to the body you can suck it up, shot to the head can make your mind cloudly for a split second too long.


I agree, if a guy comes at me swinging or even with his hands up in an aggressive manner then my hands go up irrespective of how far away he is. My previous post referred more to someone just yelling or carrying on, in that case I wouldnt raise my hands because it insinuates that I want a fight.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> If a guy comes at me with his hands up like he wants to swing, my hands are going up BEFORE he gets into punching range.




But if he doesn't do that, you keep your hands down right? If so, then that is exactly what competitors do in a taekwondo match.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> My father is notorious in class for getting right outside punching range and throwing a lunging backfist.  If your hands are down because he's outside punching range, then you are taking a shot to the head.  If a 50 year old guy can move like that, a thug on the street can.




Thank you for making my point. Right outside of punching range is exactly where most people like to stand immediately before when they throw their head shots. But that is way inside of my kick range. Let's see how many lunging back fists your father throws after getting kicked in the leg a few times.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2010)

puunui said:


> But if he doesn't do that, you keep your hands down right? If so, then that is exactly what competitors do in a taekwondo match.


But surely going by that logic ufc fighters and boxers should fight with their hands by their sides if the opponent is outside of range, they may lower their guard slightly when out of range but they dont do what wtf sparrers do. Either way "going at it" with hands by your side cant possibly be compared to real life self defence.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> But surely going by that logic ufc fighters and boxers should fight with their hands by their sides if the opponent is outside of range, they may lower their guard slightly when out of range but they dont do what wtf sparrers do. Either way "going at it" with hands by your side cant possibly be compared to real life self defence.




We do keep our hands down in MMA when outside, and they still can't come in and punch. They get all frustrated and mad getting their legs chopped, being unable to put their weight behind their punches because their front pivot foot is all trashed, and then they rush into grappling but not punching range. Again, it is much easier to demonstrate then discuss, because the thing that the self defense crowd can't comprehend with words is how distancing and steps and movement is much more effective at controlling head punches than keeping your hands up.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> Again, you are assuming that your opponent gets inside your guard and is able to get within range to punch your face. I think that is a very big assumption.


You're assuming that your opponent getting inside your guard is impossible. I think that is a very big assumption.  It may be unlikely, but a lot depends upon the opponent, how trained they may be, and what they may or may not be trained in.



puunui said:


> Again it is easier and more believable to show in person than to discuss online. When I first opened my own dojang over twenty years ago, it was during an era where people would still come to "challenge" a new instructor. I would stand there with my arms at my sides and people (including students) would play what ifs with me, including what if your opponent punches you in the face. I can tell you that for the majority, once I started kicking them in the leg, their focus changed from punching me in the face to getting me to stop kicking their legs.


Sounds like you lacked any quality opponents.



puunui said:


> In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside and tried his best to punch me in the face, I just did long off the line roundhouse to his leg or long padduh chagi to his leg. He kept coming and I just kept kicking his leg to the point where he was in tears. Finally I felt like enough was enough and so I faked to his leg, which drew both his hands down, and he lifted up his front leg, and I came over the top with a punch to his nose. But at the last minute, I pulled the punch and didn't follow through. He stood there with his broken bent nose, tears in his eyes, and yelled out "you broke my nose!". One drop of blood came out of one nostril, followed a few seconds later with a gush of blood all over his shirt. At this point, the security guard came, and asked me if he should call the police, to which I responded, "no need, I think our discussion is over."


Nice story. Glad it worked out for you. Again, doesn't sound like much of an opponent. 



puunui said:


> I can tell you numerous other similar stories from my own personal experience and the personal experiences of my students, both in or out of the ring.


I can tell some stories too. I simply choose not to. 



puunui said:


> You might be concerned about keeping your hands up because of face punches, but we aren't. you may believe that tournament fighting is different from self defense, but we don't. it's all the same to us.


Actually, you don't really know what I'm concerned with or what I may believe. All that I've said is that WTF competition rules do not take into account specific things, including those kicks to the leg you were bragging about, and that WTF sparring is different from the rest of the KKW curriculum. Thats it. 

I will say that yes, tournament fighting is different from self defense, though that is not the same as saying that tournament fighters cannot defend themselves.



puunui said:


> If anything, street fights are much easier because you are generally fighting someone who is not trained all that much (maybe some training) and they have a distinct disadvantage because they don't know what we are about. In tournaments, especially high level tournaments, your opponents have video of you, know you and your style, and are specifically training year around to beat you.


While some of what you say may be true, your outlook seems rather naive. The biggest concern with a street fight is not the level of training of the opponent, but the presence of 'buddies' or weapons, or both, which changes the dynamic substantially.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You're assuming that your opponent getting inside your guard is impossible. I think that is a very big assumption.  It may be unlikely, but a lot depends upon the opponent, how trained they may be, and what they may or may not be trained in.



No it is not impossible. Please read my previous posts. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sounds like you lacked any quality opponents.



That's true. Most people cannot fight. The ones that do, generally aren't out there provoking fights with others who do. Or at least that has been my experience.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Nice story. Glad it worked out for you. Again, doesn't sound like much of an opponent.



See my last response. 


I can tell some stories too. I simply choose not to. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Actually, you don't really know what I'm concerned with or what I may believe.



No, you've said several times that you are concerned about head punches. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> All that I've said is that WTF competition rules do not take into account specific things, including those kicks to the leg you were bragging about, and that WTF sparring is different from the rest of the KKW curriculum. Thats it.



Not bragging about leg kicks, only demonstrating how leg kicks can and are effective in neutralizing head punches, which is most people's main offensive weapon. 


I will say that yes, tournament fighting is different from self defense, though that is not the same as saying that tournament fighters cannot defend themselves.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> While some of what you say may be true, your outlook seems rather naive. The biggest concern with a street fight is not the level of training of the opponent, but the presence of 'buddies' or weapons, or both, which changes the dynamic substantially.



That might be your biggest concern, but it isn't spelled out by empirical evidence. I can tell you at least in my area, most assaults are one vs. one, without weapons. Most assault arrests involve this situation. 

This in fact is the primary focus of most self defense oriented training, including those one step sparring techniques. Sure many schools touch upon multiple attacker or weapon scenarios, but that isn't the main focus. Even in your hapkido training, are you primarily focused on weapon defenses and/or multiple attackers? 

But don't take my word for it. Check out the works of people like Peyton Quinn and others who specialize in what he calls "Real Fighting". He wrote a series of books, based on his training and experience as a bouncer.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> No, you've said several times that you are concerned about head punches.


That is not specifically what I said.  I stated numerous times that WTF competition does not address head punches and that that comprises a very large technical difference between the rest of Kukki Taekwondo and WTF competiton.



puunui said:


> That might be your biggest concern, but it isn't spelled out by empirical evidence. I can tell you at least in my area, most assaults are one vs. one, without weapons. Most assault arrests involve this situation.
> 
> This in fact is the primary focus of most self defense oriented training, including those one step sparring techniques. Sure many schools touch upon multiple attacker or weapon scenarios, but that isn't the main focus. Even in your hapkido training, are you primarily focused on weapon defenses and/or multiple attackers?
> 
> But don't take my word for it. Check out the works of people like Peyton Quinn and others who specialize in what he calls "Real Fighting". He wrote a series of books, based on his training and experience as a bouncer.


You are answering a point that I did not make.  

I never said that *the* biggest concern is armed attackers or multiple attackers.  I said that *my* biggest concern is.  

The unarmed attacker really doesn't 'concern' me.  For one, I have the training and ability to deal with the unarmed guy.

For another, I am not the favored target of most unarmed criminals (male, over six feet, over 200lbs., under fifty, and look like I make less than forty grand a year)  Most lone unarmed assailants will pick a target that looks like less of a hassle with greater return on their investment.

Finally, and more importantly, I tend to not frequent places where an unarmed attacker will be an issue, such as bars.  I am careful about how I handle myself coming and going from buildings and with where I put my car. I am also fairly skilled in verbal deescalation and don't go out of my way to prove things to inconsequential people. 

Daniel


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> That's true. Most people cannot fight. The ones that do, generally aren't out there provoking fights with others who do.



So I guess you are the exception to that rule?


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## Archtkd (Dec 16, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Sure did. My dad was a boxer and drilled the "guard up" thing since as young as I can remember.


 
I'm sure you know there is a distinction between a boxer's "guard up" and a Taekwondo "guard up." In boxing, which I did for many years, you often can get away with planting your feet down, having hands in front of you and soaking up punishment from an opponent's barrage of gloved hands. In WTF taekwondo having a static "guard up" will get you broken hands. I know a master who routinely breaks baseball bats with the instep of a roundhouse kick. I'm not going to try to stop a kick from a guy like that too many times, with my hands.


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## d1jinx (Dec 16, 2010)

"when done right, No can defense"


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## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

Why can't we all just get along ( my mistake this is the TKD section nobody gets along):jediduel::stoplurk::argue::knight2::snipe2::wuguns::hb:


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## Gorilla (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay...
> 
> Basic guard is radically altered in WTF competion due to the fact that hand techniques are no longer much of a factor and hand techniques to the head are not a factor at all.
> 
> ...




Hand techs to the head are still not allowed but hand techs to the body are scored much more frequently than in the past.  That is why we are training in Shotokan.  The EBP's have changed Sport TKD radically over the last 2 years.  More emphasis on punching and head kicking.  We have changed are hand position to a much higher guard.  Some of the old arguments just don't hold in regards to hand position in Sport TKD!


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> So I guess you are the exception to that rule?



Depends on what you consider provoking, but if that is how you wish to judge me, then that is your business.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is not specifically what I said.  I stated numerous times that WTF competition does not address head punches and that that comprises a very large technical difference between the rest of Kukki Taekwondo and WTF competiton.






Daniel Sullivan said:


> I never said that *the* biggest concern is armed attackers or multiple attackers.  I said that *my* biggest concern is.



that's what I said, that might be your biggest concern... 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> The unarmed attacker really doesn't 'concern' me.  For one, I have the training and ability to deal with the unarmed guy.



terrific.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> For another, I am not the favored target of most unarmed criminals (male, over six feet, over 200lbs., under fifty, and look like I make less than forty grand a year)



You sound like the guy at the bar, except he was over 225, under thirty and looked like he was on welfare.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most lone unarmed assailants will pick a target that looks like less of a hassle with greater return on their investment.



I think that is how he saw me. 


Finally, and more importantly, I tend to not frequent places where an unarmed attacker will be an issue, such as bars.  I am careful about how I handle myself coming and going from buildings and with where I put my car. I am also fairly skilled in verbal deescalation and don't go out of my way to prove things to inconsequential people. [/quote] 

good for you. I don't drink anymore, so I rarely if ever go to bars now. I am careful where I put my car, mainly because I don't want door dings. And i guess I am a consequential person to you because you seem to be putting a lot of effort into making your points on this subject.


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## puunui (Dec 16, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> I'm sure you know there is a distinction between a boxer's "guard up" and a Taekwondo "guard up." In boxing, which I did for many years, you often can get away with planting your feet down, having hands in front of you and soaking up punishment from an opponent's barrage of gloved hands. In WTF taekwondo having a static "guard up" will get you broken hands. I know a master who routinely breaks baseball bats with the instep of a roundhouse kick. I'm not going to try to stop a kick from a guy like that too many times, with my hands.




Problem with your logic is that many people think that Taekwondo competition is a game of tag, with lightweight kicks without any power behind them. The one thing that Taekwondo competition teaches or emphasizes, which is completely applicable to self defense, mma or whatever else, is the efficient use of footwork to control distance and angle. It is very difficult to write about but very easy to show. Taekwondo competitors or those trained with taekwondo footwork and steps have by far the best footwork out there. 

I had this student once, who taking kajukenbo but was getting beat up all the time during sparring. So he came to me because he wanted to learn how to kick. He was short (5'2") and was fighting guys who were six inches to a foot taller than him. I told him come to class, learn our stance and four basic steps along with roundhouse kick, I will spar with him after class for ten minutes, and within three months he can go and spar with those guys. He did that, trained hard, and after three months no one could touch him and he could move in and out and strike them at will. The sole exception was the assistant instructor who was over six feet and was a former golden gloves boxer. He could hit that guy but the guy would get him back with punches.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

puunui said:


> You sound like the guy at the bar, except he was over 225, under thirty and looked like he was on welfare.


That and I don't wear lumber jack shirts or baseball caps.



puunui said:


> And i guess I am a consequential person to you because you seem to be putting a lot of effort into making your points on this subject.


Sure.  I am enjoying conversing with you.  And you're consequential because you are capable of intelligent dialogue and are versed on the subject matter at hand.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Hand techs to the head are still not allowed *but hand techs to the body are scored much more frequently than in the past.* That is why we are training in Shotokan. The EBP's have changed Sport TKD radically over the last 2 years. More emphasis on punching and head kicking. We have changed are hand position to a much higher guard. Some of the old arguments just don't hold in regards to hand position in Sport TKD!


That is the first positive thing about electric scoring that I have heard.

Daniel


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## Devlin76 (Dec 18, 2010)

I just watched "The Best of the Best" on YouTube, and it inspired a couple comments/questions. 





First two comments.
1) This is still the best Taekwondo movie I have ever seen.  
2) They keep their hands up and punch to the face frequently, even after throwing someone to the mat.  

And three questions.
1) Do tournaments with this kind of rule structure still exist?  
2) Did they ever exist in international competition?  
3) Who would win in a real fight between the Rhee brothers?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 20, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> But surely going by that logic ufc fighters and boxers should fight with their hands by their sides if the opponent is outside of range, they may lower their guard slightly when out of range but they dont do what wtf sparrers do. Either way "going at it" with hands by your side cant possibly be compared to real life self defence.



Having just watched Dominick Cruz fight in the last WEC (53) someone ought to tell him that...

A rather low res highlight reel is at YouTube.  Note: his hands are by his sides for most of the fight and the commentators note that it's the best way of frustrating your opponent - hands down and making them miss by head movement.

And before you argue that he's WEC not UFC, he was crowned the new UFC Bantamweight Champion after that fight as the WEC is now no more.

I do however, accept that this style of fighting is very rare (the only other semi-recent example I can think of is Prince Naseem Hamed in boxing) but it does go to show that it's not as ridiculous in MMA as some people think.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2010)

Devlin76 said:


> I just watched "The Best of the Best" on YouTube, and it inspired a couple comments/questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely!  Best of the Best is a classic and a must see.



Devlin76 said:


> 2) They keep their hands up and punch to the face frequently, even after throwing someone to the mat.


Well, that's because the tournament rules of the movie were more like how I hear ITF taekwondo tournaments descirbed.  



Devlin76 said:


> And three questions.
> 1) Do tournaments with this kind of rule structure still exist?
> 2) Did they ever exist in international competition?
> 3) Who would win in a real fight between the Rhee brothers?


1. Probably, but not in the WTF.
2. Perhaps in ITF, but I'll defer to ITF practitioners.
3. No idea, but regardless of the outcome, if it were filmed, we all win.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

The 1st Korean martial art to be called TKD was developed in the south Korean army for self defense. As early as 1962 they had sports rules & held the 1st TKD tournament ever. These rules were devised by Gen Woo Jong Lim, the only other OhDokwan member to ever attain the rank of general, due to the nasty politics of the Park regime & the KCIA. It contained continuous sparring, power, flying breaking & patterns. This was to become the ITF standard sports competition. The ITF later added a free style flying breaking which was dropped by the 1990s. However the ITF has now added a new 5th category called Hoosinsul or self defense routine by 1 ITF & pre-arranged free sparring by another ITF. This new category has been accepted by CISM TKD for the military/law enforcement Olympics, along with ITF Tuls & the WTF fighting that has been in place for years. So even military TKD hd a sports element to it & the ITF still does to this day.

Kukki TKD which developed as TaeSuDo has had their continuous fighting rules, which helped revolutionize Kukki TKD that it is now an Olympic sport that has some 192 member nations of the WTF.

I think much of the innovation, especially the kicking & footwork, can be traced to these rules. However it really is up to the individual school, instructor & student, to what they emphasize & how they train


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## puunui (Dec 28, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> The 1st Korean martial art to be called TKD was developed in the south Korean army for self defense. As early as 1962 they had sports rules & held the 1st TKD tournament ever. These rules were devised by Gen Woo Jong Lim, the only other OhDokwan member to ever attain the rank of general, due to the nasty politics of the Park regime & the KCIA.




I would think that ROK Army members whose primary duties were teaching Taekwondo wouldn't become generals, simply because their duties would limit them. Why would the head of boot camp need to be a general? I don't think the politics of President Park had all that much to do with Oh Do Kwan members not getting promoted to General, since the majority of the senior Oh Do Kwan members seemed to affiliate themselves with the Chung Do Kwan, and the Chung Do Kwan Jang GM UHM Woon Kyu had a very good relationship with President Park. GM Uhm got the ROK Army Chief of Staff to serve as the first president of the KTA, and he also got GM PARK Hae Man appointed as taekwondo instructor at the Bluehouse.


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2010)

Well I will say this until I am dead, there is a different between sport and TKD. When TKD was tought to the ROK it was not about sport it was about survival, now with that being said sure they adopted rules to show what they have done and that has turned into what is called sport TKD. I have spoke to so many GM and they all say the same thing TKD was about self defense in the beginning and the structure itself changed over a few years to bring it out into the world for competition and sport. I already know some will say B.S. but this gentlemen have been doing this for 50 plus years and I believe they have the background to say this.


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## puunui (Dec 28, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well I will say this until I am dead, there is a different between sport and TKD. When TKD was tought to the ROK it was not about sport it was about survival, now with that being said sure they adopted rules to show what they have done and that has turned into what is called sport TKD. I have spoke to so many GM and they all say the same thing TKD was about self defense in the beginning and the structure itself changed over a few years to bring it out into the world for competition and sport. I already know some will say B.S. but this gentlemen have been doing this for 50 plus years and I believe they have the background to say this.




I don't see how your statement above supports your argument that there is a difference. If anything it supports the idea that Taekwondo is unified. Before there were numerous kwans. So what, because they call unified. So how it was before, whether it was for self defense in the past doesn't speak for what it is today. But if you wish to believe that there is a difference, then go ahead. No problem. Obviously, you have your heels dug in on this one.


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2010)

puunui said:


> I don't see how your statement above supports your argument that there is a difference. If anything it supports the idea that Taekwondo is unified. Before there were numerous kwans. So what, because they call unified. So how it was before, whether it was for self defense in the past doesn't speak for what it is today. But if you wish to believe that there is a difference, then go ahead. No problem. Obviously, you have your heels dug in on this one.


 
Yea go figure sometimes no-matter what some old dogs just will never learna new trick. Also I teach the sportside of TKD alot it seems here lately, I have alot of quality people that come to me for my insight into the sport, I guess I am learning something from some of these people.


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## puunui (Dec 29, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Yea go figure sometimes no-matter what some old dogs just will never learna new trick. Also I teach the sportside of TKD alot it seems here lately, I have alot of quality people that come to me for my insight into the sport, I guess I am learning something from some of these people.




I don't know what you are trying to say. A lot of quality people come to you for your insight into sport where, on martialtalk?


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## terryl965 (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> I don't know what you are trying to say. A lot of quality people come to you for your insight into sport where, on martialtalk?


 
Just forget it puuniu, martial talk is just a community. I see you are unable to see the joking between the lines.:asian: I surrender to you the all mighty of all on this and all boards.


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