# Knife and Tomahawk



## Flying Crane (Sep 20, 2011)

Does anyone know if Knife and Tomahawk/hand axe methods have survived into the modern day?  I'm guessing these would be Native American ancestral methods, tho perhaps there could be some Scandinavian/Northern European methods that would fit the description as well.  I'd be interested in any information that anyone might have about this.

thanks, everyone.


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## elder999 (Sep 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> Does anyone know if Knife and Tomahawk/hand axe methods have survived into the modern day? I'm guessing these would be Native American ancestral methods, tho perhaps there could be some Scandinavian/Northern European methods that would fit the description as well. I'd be interested in any information that anyone might have about this.
> 
> thanks, everyone.



yes.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 20, 2011)

elder999 said:


> yes.



any resources you might recommend?  in what form have these methods survived and are they taught anywhere you know of?


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## elder999 (Sep 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> any resources you might recommend? in what form have these methods survived and are they taught anywhere you know of?



Mostly, *no.* To clarify, there are no resources that I might recommend. Depending upon where we're talking about, the methods are kept within families or survive in powwow dances. There are several recreations-20th century American variants of tomahawk and knife fighting-that are mostly quite servicable, and often close enough in form-in fact, when it comes to the tomahawk, I'd recommend them highly. There *are * resources for these, but none that I'd trust for American Indian or Colonial knife and trade-axe skills, or even maritime boarding/trade axe skills. The people that have maintained some of these methods _generally_ keep them to themselves, and most of what I've seen that claimed to teach them commercially (Adrian Roman floats to the top of that list) really *don't.*


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## Flying Crane (Sep 20, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Mostly, *no.* To clarify, there are no resources that I might recommend. Depending upon where we're talking about, the methods are kept within families or survive in powwow dances. There are several recreations-20th century American variants of tomahawk and knife fighting-that are mostly quite servicable, and often close enough in form-in fact, when it comes to the tomahawk, I'd recommend them highly. There *are *resources for these, but none that I'd trust for American Indian or Colonial knife and trade-axe skills, or even maritime boarding/trade axe skills. The people that have maintained some of these methods _generally_ keep them to themselves, and most of what I've seen that claimed to teach them commercially (Adrian Roman floats to the top of that list) really *don't.*



I'm not surprised by this answer, at least as far as the Native American sources.  I guess the answer, as far as that goes, is that you just gotta know the right people, and then they've gotta be inclined to teach you.  Sounds like it's something you can't really go shopping for.

As far as the 20th century American variants of re-creations go, what do you know about that?  Is it found in the Midievalist societes and whatnot (SCA, is it, I can never remember their name...)?

Thanks!


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## elder999 (Sep 20, 2011)

Dwight McElmore's _The Fighting Tomahawk, _ from Paladin Press, is *good.* I haven't had a chance to see it, but I'd imagine his Bowie knife stuff is as well.


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## kegage (Sep 20, 2011)

Here is a similar thread that occurred back in August that might help with some of the information you are seeking.  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97884-Help-Me-With-My-Battle-Axe-Style   Kevin


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## kegage (Sep 20, 2011)

Here is a similar thread that occurred back in August that might help with some of the information you are seeking.  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97884-Help-Me-With-My-Battle-Axe-Style  Kevin


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## Flying Crane (Sep 20, 2011)

kegage said:


> Here is a similar thread that occurred back in August that might help with some of the information you are seeking. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97884-Help-Me-With-My-Battle-Axe-Style Kevin



I remember this thread, but I hadn't followed it for very long.  thanks!


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## jks9199 (Sep 20, 2011)

One other place to look for related threads is to go down to the bottom of the page, and check out some of the links under "Similar Threads."  Mine is currently showing five threads about tomahawks.


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## lklawson (Sep 28, 2011)

Sorry that I missed this thread.  I'm late to the dance again.  

OK, there are no known surviving bowie, 'hawk, and bowie/hawk lineages.  From what we know of the time period, extant "systems" tended to be very basic.  While there is some degree of social exclusion (don't show the outsiders) that doesn't seem to have been the primary reason for the die-off of what skills there were.  Instead, the reason seems to have a lot more to do with simple facts of technological advancements making those weapons (and therefore their skills) obsolete.  Most of the social groups in question ("native" Americans, Colonials, Settlers, Military, Naval) tended to be rather practical and pragmatic.  Their lives were already full of just surviving, making ends-meet, and trying to raise the next generation that they frequently had to be very choosy about what skills were considered important enough social/heirloom artifacts to be passed on to the next generation.  The death of Bowie/Longknife & 'Hawk traditions occurred for much the same reasons that caused the death of most other fencing skills.

This is made worse because of other social stigmas at the time.  While Fencing in general was considered gentlemanly, there was a huge social stigma in the U.S. against the knife, particularly following the "Bowie Knife Craze" of the mid-19th Century (where news media of the time reported any fixed bladed knife over 6" as a "Bowie Knife").  While, for a period, there were some schools, notably in New Orleans, teaching Bowie, there are no known period Bowie Knife manuals.  The same goes for the Tomahawk.

Having said that, there are some notable sources of secondary evidence for how the 'Hawk was used, mostly from period accounts and the occasional medical record.  Using these sources, a good understanding of what other skills were available and in practice at the time (such as well known and understood period Fencing and other native fight traditions), and a healthy dose of "experimental archeology," it is possible to develop a set of skills that are *probably* pretty close to what was practiced in period.

This is the direction that the afore mentioned Dwight McLemore has used in his work on the Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, and their dual use.  And, yes, the results are very good.  It has produced a system which is unified in theory and method, pressure tests well, and survives third party scrutiny (in no small part because he is very up-front about his sources and methods).

For full disclosure, I have studied with Dwight and several of his students and consider them to be friends.  I have Dwight's material, both books & video, and I teach his method at my Club.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blindside (Sep 28, 2011)

Jim Keatings material on bowie work is very good as well, again recreated from a fencing foundation.
http://www.jamesakeating.com/instructional1.html


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