# How much contact?



## yak sao (Sep 16, 2012)

I did a private class with a guy a couple of days ago and we were going to do another tomorrow, but he just e-mailed me to cancel because he said he had to go to the hospital because of heart palpitations. 

We were training HK lat sau. I was having him step in w/ pak dar and punch to the chest with multiple rapid fire punches to the chest.
I demonstrated on him a few times how to do the drill.
We were both wearing the old school WT chi sau chest protectors, but the contact was far from excessive. In fact, I would consider it mild contact at best. We were simply wearing the pads for some cushioning against the knuckles.

What are your thoughts on chest contact? I stopped years ago having students hold focus pads on their chest while we practice punches. I now have them hold the the pads in their hands.

But now I'm thinking that any significant chest contact may not be a good thing at all.
Overreation on my part?

Ar the risk of sounding like my dad, in my day we beat the hell out of each other. Contact was expected, even demanded from my sifu.
My students today seem so gun shy when it comes to contact.


----------



## SAAMAG (Sep 16, 2012)

Heart palpitations can happen for a number of reasons.  Congenial conditions, stress, physical abuse, many things.  I wouldn't worry about it per say.  So many individuals spar full contact today and don't have issues.  The key thing to remember is that each individual is responsible for making sure they are healthy enough for the activity at hand.  That's also why schools, coaches, instructors should have their students sign a liability exclusion indicating they are taking on the activity at their own risk, etc.


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 16, 2012)

It is true that many things can lead to heart palpitations, but this is a very serious matter non-the-less.

This is one of the things that I would rather avoid if possible.

The way I punch my students now (and expect them to punch me) is a full fist distance above the sternum. Yes back in the day, we used to beat the hell out of eachother, but the consequences for training like this is far reaching and not always instantly recognizable. It is safer to just punch higher, and use gloves and/or chest protecters. Remember some people don't have as much protection over their sternum, and some people weren't born with certain things in place to protect them like everyone else, yes it is a far shot, but it is a possiblity.

Just be on the safe side and raise your punches from here on out.

All the best,

Jeff


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2012)

Perhaps he just enjoyed it too much........? 

Not as daft as you first think....


----------



## Danny T (Sep 16, 2012)

Heart palpitations are not to be trifled.

Students are contact shy because:


 
they are afraid due to;  
 
they don&#8217;t have confidence in their skills  
they don&#8217;t have the skills. 
 
they have not been tempered physically or mentally.     (it hurts and/or they don&#8217;t know how to work through the pain)
 
As to using pads and how;
What is the goal of the individual fortraining?
What is the age as well as the temperingand physical conditioning of the individual?
What is the skill level of the individual?

Each person is different and their healthis ultimately their responsibility. We should train safely or at least as safelyas possible however; &#8216;IF&#8217; the participant&#8217;s goal in training is to be able toutilize their learned skills as in a real physical encounter then there must bea training element which includes full contact. One must learn to deal withhaving been punched, kicked and even injured. The training must include both thephysical and the psychological aspect of being struck and/or injured.

In the learning environment the actions donot require contact however the range must be correct. We do a lot of real timefull speed drills using palm strikes at a higher level with the shoulder pulledback allowing actions to be done at the correct distance.

When using pads the pad holder will useranging and angles to take their body off line of the strikes leaving a padwhere the body would have been. This allows the practitioner to use fullmovement strikes as the pad holder uses countering footwork and angles. (bothare training not just one)

Full power strikes are done on the heavybags.


----------



## geezer (Sep 16, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> ...The way I punch my students now (and expect them to punch me) is a full fist distance above the sternum.
> ...Just be on the safe side and raise your punches from here on out.
> 
> All the best,  Jeff



Check this out:
http://www.freewebs.com/crisashaharry/sternum.gif

_Jeff_, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "a full fist distance above the sternum." The sternum is a long "dagger-shaped" bone that extends upward to the juncture of the collar bones. A full fist distance above the sternum would put the fist squarely on the throat !?! I'm no doctor, but to me  the possibility of a crushed trachea sounds even worse than a cracked sternum. I know that's not what you mean, so please clarify. Thanks.

Now back to the OP. _Yak, _as much as I hate those old style WT chest protectors, one thing they did well was provide good protection over the center of the chest. Unless you guys were literally going all out, I'd doubt that your punches were responsible for heart palpitations on a healthy individual. 

On the other hand, I know you spent time in EBMAS, and more than any other branch of WT in the US, EBMAS has a rep for going at it hard. You may want to modify that approach, depending on the student. Even LT himself used to say that a good WT guy should be able to control his punches, and when hitting hard, should be able to "release his power at the surface" ...as compared to driving the power into the target. That's what wall bags are for! 

But seriously, from the amount of time we've spent together on this forum, I'm pretty sure that you are very careful with your students. Honestly, the palpitations may be totally coincidental. I wish your student a speedy recovery, and let us know how this turns out. --Your friend in WT/VT?WC, the _Geezer_.


----------



## WC_lun (Sep 16, 2012)

Very unlikely the heart palpatations were due to the not very hard contact.  You's actually have to use enough force to basically cause the heart to cramp or change its' rythyms.  If the heart is weak, it takes a bit less force, but still quite a bit.  Remember, the anatomy of our own bodies protect the heart pretty well.  As someone who has a weak heart my Sifu let me determine what I was comfortable with and what I was not comfortable with.  In my opinion that is the best way to aproach it.  Your student will know his body and when it is telling him to back off whatever he is doing.


----------



## HammockRider (Sep 17, 2012)

Hey yak,
  I've had heart palpitations myself and have researched it to some degree. In all the articles I've read about it I've never once heard of them being caused by a punch. Like many people have already posted, they can be caused by all kinds of reasons including too much caffeine and not enough sleep, especially as you get older. This might be coincindental and I think you should wait to hear what your student's doctor has to say about the cause before you jump to any conclusions. 

 I don't think you're over reacting. You're acting just like a decent teacher and human being.


----------



## Domino (Sep 18, 2012)

Sure you must train competative but there is such thing as 'pulling your punch' as no training partner = no 2 man forms.
I agree with Hammock, don't jump to conclusion. I get punched in the chest from time to time, bruising and am fine. 
Also remember training is not a competition so don't exert so much force as you need very little.


----------



## yak sao (Sep 18, 2012)

HammockRider said:


> Hey yak,
> I've had heart palpitations myself and have researched it to some degree. In all the articles I've read about it I've never once heard of them being caused by a punch. Like many people have already posted, they can be caused by all kinds of reasons including too much caffeine and not enough sleep, especially as you get older. This might be coincindental and I think you should wait to hear what your student's doctor has to say about the cause before you jump to any conclusions.
> 
> I don't think you're over reacting. You're acting just like a decent teacher and human being.




Tried to thank your post but it's not coming up for some reason.
Thanks, much appreciated.


----------



## yak sao (Sep 18, 2012)

Domino said:


> Sure you must train competative but there is such thing as 'pulling your punch' as no training partner = no 2 man forms.
> I agree with Hammock, don't jump to conclusion. I get punched in the chest from time to time, bruising and am fine.
> Also remember training is not a competition so don't exert so much force as you need very little.




We've trained chest contact for years. In recent years though, I've had them back way down on intensity. It came about from one of my training partners having a hiatal hernia, so to accomodate him, we starting backing off.


----------



## yak sao (Sep 20, 2012)

Follow up.

My student went to the cardiologist for his heart palpitations and was given a clean bill of health.
He was told he was having spasms in his chest muscles.

Thanks for everyone's input. Always appreciated.


----------



## Domino (Sep 28, 2012)

yak sao said:


> We've trained chest contact for years. In recent years though, I've had them back way down on intensity. It came about from one of my training partners having a hiatal hernia, so to accomodate him, we starting backing off.



Sure and I agree if not using protection. Not talking condoms here


----------

