# Tanemura & Hatsumi



## Logan

I don't know if this has been posted but I came across this on E-Budo
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=789

Original post

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37097


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## mrhnau

Logan said:


> I don't know if this has been posted but I came across this on E-Budo
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=789
> 
> Original post
> 
> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37097


Wow... As a student in the Bujinkan, I've always wondered. I'm glad to see things clarified a bit. I'm curious if Hatsumi will respond/verify.

Thanks for sharing


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## saru1968

The information is too scarce to draw anything conclusive but as its been posted i'm assuming its open for comment?

Seems odd something so personal for 23 years to be posted now, I wonder about the timing?

It is interesting to note there is a difference of  8 months from the March 1984 Resignation date untill Tanemura 'found out' in November 1984.

That 'seems' odd to me.

On 13th November a resignation letter was sent and oddly enough the Genbukan was born on 28th, i would argue much more foundation work was done than two weeks and one day.

The Budo he has 'mastered' was from Hatsumi Sensei via Menkyo Kaiden not Takamatsu Sensei. After only meeting Takamatsu Sensei on one afternoon whilst visiting with Hatsumi Sensei does not put him in a position to judge what is the 'true spirit and teachings of Takamatsu Sensei'. He was never a student and recieved no grading or training from Takamatsu Sensei other that the afternoon visit.(as far as i know)

He might well have train with other students of Takamatsu Sensei after his passing but that like me training with Dan Inosanto after Bruce Lee had passed and then claiming some authority on the man's legacy.

As far as i'm aware only one man was put in a postion to carry on these teachings.

Hatsumi Sensei.


If any of the above is factually incorrect please let me know.

But thats my view on the topic.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Personally sometimes people go through changes and also sometimes they need to break away to grow.  For myself I wish Tanemura Sensei the best and hope that his Genbukan organization prospers.  

Yet I will continue to train in the Bujinkan and with Hatsumi Sensei because he is the rightful and true heir of the Takamatsu Lineage as appointed by Takamatsu himself.  Does that make the Genbukan less of an organization or Tanemura Sensei less of an individual or martial artist in my opinion - *no*!

Everyone needs to find their path and I wish the best for everyone.

Find your path and train and grow and enjoy what you do!


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## saru1968

a little more info it seems...

Its from Garth so how reliable is anyone's idea and i have no idea about the source.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66722&page=2&pp=15


			
				Garth said:
			
		

> 'I believe (and I may be wrong here, as none of us were there) but what actually happened was that the student in question was Mr Tanemuras boss in the police force. His boss however was also a student of Mr Tanemura. Tanemuras boss gave Mr Tanemura a job which i believe was as a self defence instructor in the police force which took Mr Tanemura away from the streets. Although this sounds a very grandiose job it was as far as i am aware pretty much a desk bound job, and Mr Tanemura was not happy and in response Mr Tanemura stopped this student (His boss) training with him.
> This man (Tanemuras ex student/boss) then went to Dr Hatsumi and Dr Hatsumi let him train with him. As Ben Cole says
> 
> Quote:
> Given how Hatsumi-sensei is notoriously "no touch" on pretty much anything in the Bujinkan,
> 
> So then Mr Tanemura goes to the funeral and guess what theres his boss. Hense big argument, fisticuffs, bit of a scuffle whtever ensues.
> Now Mr Tanemura has a job he doesn't like, a boss who is laughing at him, and a not too good relationship with Dr Hatsumi and the Shihan. Hense the birth of Genbukan, although I do believe that possibly as Ben Cole says the breakaway was planned to happen.
> Katsujinken also posted
> Quote:
> Regarding Tanemura Soke supposedly scaring Mrs. Tane Takamatsu, it would be of interest to you to read the letter of encouragement she sent Tanemura Soke regarding the writing of his book, Hiden Ninpo ("Ninpo Secrets"), p. 10. I highly doubt you have read the book or plan on doing so, but if you wish to read the letter portion in question, by all means let me know. I can be sure of this much, Mrs. Takamatsu wouldn't have gone out of her way to endorse Tanemura Soke's writing efforts if there wasn't real trust there.
> 
> Thats right, and not only that but Mr Tanemura was raising funds for Mrs Tane for her hospital stays through producing a poem on Niniku Seishin that was sold to Genbukan students (I have a copy). Mr Tanemura IIRC was also featured in Bufu magazine with Mr Tane in Hospital where she died. One can only hope that Dr Hatsumi was also helping his teachers wife during her last few years.
> Gary Arthur


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## Brian R. VanCise

Well I believe Mr. Gary Arthur has been banned from this forum.  That speaks volumes.


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## mrhnau

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well I believe Mr. Gary Arthur has been banned from this forum.  That speaks volumes.


Reason for banning? I've seen people get banned that I highly respect.


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## Brian R. VanCise

mrhnau said:


> Reason for banning? I've seen people get banned that I highly respect.


 
Unfortunatley that is not something I can disclose.  However usually when someone is banned it is generally for the better.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Now back to the topic I believe sometimes people just need to grow and unfortunately that may entail moving to another place and beginning to teach.  More than anything I feel that is what went on here.  

I have seen Tanemura Sensei move and he is fabulous.  It was probably his time to move on.  He did it and that is that.  Personally I wish him the best and everyone in the Genbukan the best.  I know several practitioners and they are great guy's and great practitioner's. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





The lineage is the same with slight variations which is the norm when people go their seperate ways.  That is the beauty of the Takamatsuden arts in that there are several trees to take a look at.

For myself it is Bujinkan because my heart in Budo Taijutsu resides there.
Yet I wish everyone the best from Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan to To Shin Do.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I think hearing Hatsumi version would be nice seeing as how Tanemura-san offered his version. I think most knew Tanemura was in the Bujinkan 
however the way Tanemura seems to immortalize Takamatsu made alot of people think that he trained with Takamatsu as well.
No doubt that Tanemura is a very good martial artist however I find him to be some what of a salesman shark and a smooth talker in Japanese when it comes to business.  I once asked what style of Pa kua Tanemura-san learned. The question was answered by Mr. Coleman who in a nut shell went back to he learned it from Kimbei who learned it from Lizi Ming.
However that would leave the question of where did Lizi Ming learn his art which I found out thru research. Also Sato Kimbei's daughter says some things that in a way contradict things said on the Genbukan website. So there are some questionable things IMO I think anyone who did a little bit if critical thinking might see it.


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## Boondoggleyou

This really isn't any of our business, whether you're from Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, etc. We really shouldnt go around gossiping about our instructors, it isn't right.
Just train, that's all it comes down to isn't it?
I know this is a quote that is used far to much, but maybe this is a correct time to use it. . . "Shut up and train" - Hatsumi Sensei

We should respect our teachers to a very high degree, be thankful for what they have provided us, and stop worrying so much about matters that honestly arn't any of our business.

Please understand I am not trying to start any arguments, or fights, that would be the very last thing I would want from any of you.


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## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> For myself it is Bujinkan because my heart in Budo Taijutsu resides there.
> Yet I wish everyone the best from Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan to To Shin Do.



Well said!  That goes for me too!


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## saru1968

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> however the way Tanemura seems to immortalize Takamatsu made alot of people think that he trained with Takamatsu as well.


 
After 10 mins of google the Genbukan sources would see to indicate the following to the ill informed.

Not to start a flame war just presenting the info as it is on the websites...



http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1

Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with *another teacher *and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura2

Trees and stones were used to develop punching and kicking power, and served to strengthen the hands and feet. He'd punch and strike a tree until his knuckles bleed and his toes were numb. But, *Takamatsu Sensei taught *him a much better way to develop an effective defense. 

http://www.seikadojo.co.uk/sensei_history.htm

Once *one of his teachers *taught him a much better way to develop a strong strike, his teacher told him that a true martial artist passes by in a crowd unseen.

http://www.divinehumanity.com/custom/spiritma.html

Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
*One of Tanemura Sensei's teachers*

http://www.ninpo.co.uk/

Kikaku was the first martial art name of Grandmaster Takamatsu Sensei (*Grandmaster Tanemuras teacher*), who was the last living combatitive ninja, it is with great pride that we carry this great tradition. 

http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

Another is that I still needed to learn from somebody, *still needed a teacher *and Takamatsu Sensei has already passed away.

http://fugadojo.orgfree.com/pg005.html

It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei *(after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) *rediscovered Sato sensei. 


http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...er_tanemura.htm

Some of Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei's teachers :

* Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei*
 Sato Kinbei Sensei
 Kimura Masaji Sensei
 Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei
 Kobayashi Masao Sensei
 Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei
 Seishiro Saito Sensei
 Nagao Zenyu Sensei
 Suzuki Sensei


Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei has done many demonstrations worldwide and taught Ninpo and Ju-Jutsu to FBI agents, policemen, SWAT teams, SAS and other elite-team instructors. *He was the first Grandmaster of Ninpo ever *who left Japan in 1976 to teach in a Western country (USA - Atlanta). He was also the teacher of the first foreigners (Doron Navon, Stephen Hayes, ...) who came to Japan to learn Ninpo in the seventies.

http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...r_takamatsu.htm

He was well known in Japan as a Grandmaster of Ju-Jutsu and Bojutsu but many people were surprised by his death to hear that he was a true Ninja Grandmaster (of 9 schools).



*He taught *(Takamatsu Sensei)and formed many next generation Grandmasters under which :

 Kimura Masaharu Sensei

 Akimoto Fumio Sensei

 Sato Kinbei Sensei

 Ueno Takashi Sensei

* Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei*

 Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei

 Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei


http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

(under profiles Tanemura Shoto)

It was a very hard time for the young Grandmaster who received his first Menkyo Kaiden in Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu at the age of 20 ! *At the age of 15 he started training with Grandmaster Toshitsugu Takamatsu *Sensei. He majored in law at Hosei University and at the age of 22 he became a police officer, later an instructor, at Tokyo's Metropolitan Police Academy.



I could go on googling but to the uninformed its seems Hatsumi Sensei was never his teacher and certainly indicates Takamatsu Sensei role was more invloved than a meeting of one afternoon.

All this info comes from Genbukan websites.


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## FudoshinDojo

(Tie in from E-budo)

In regards to some recent posts, I would like to politely make a few comments from my own personal view point:



If this is so, what direct teaching can actually exist as regards Tanemura and Takamatsu?>>

Mr. Hatsumi was training with Takamatsu Sensei, in 1957 and Tanemura Sensei was training with Mr. Hatsumi in 1963, only five years difference, Takamatsu Sensei was alive for another 10 years roughly when Tanemura Sensei was training with Mr. Hatsumi, although there was only the one highly known about occasion where Mr. Hatsumi took all off the students to visit and train according to Tanemura Sensei there was other instances of communication between he and Takamatsu Sensei in the form of letters, stating, "he would be a great master", also he "should be the nest Soke of Togakure Ryu". 

Obviously these things no doubt left a huge impression on Tanemura Sensei, as well he was training with Mr. Hatsumi with Takamatsu Sensei in the same manner as Takamatsu Sensei taught, in his opinion based off his 10 years of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive, a style of training that he felt changed and dissapeared over the years. According to Tanemura Sensei, when Mr. Hatsumi returned from training with Takamatsu Sensei, he would be used to be experimented on with the training. So I would say, it was not the number of times he trained with Takamatsu Sensei that in my opinion he is stressing, but the style of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive that he wanted to impart thus the comments, "my beloved teacher Takamatsu Sensei", etc. Let me also add, how many other people are Grandmaster of Takamatsu Sensei's line of teachings? when Tanemura Sensei, met Kimura and Sato Sensei, he brought other teachings of Takamatsu Sensei's into the light as well. I am not saying that Takamatsu Sensei did not teach Mr. Hatsumi everything he knew or withheld information, but there were other ryu-ha that were passed on and probably a different perspective or emphasis on the martial arts at those stages of his development as a martial artist. 

The only contact that the both had together was when Hatsumi Sensei took his students to visit and train one afternoon.>>

Tanemura Sensei's opinion differs in this respect, as in the letters of communication. Let me also say, in traditional martial arts, it would have been very rude of Tanemura Sensei at that time to try and go around his teacher, Mr. Hatsumi and initiate some form of communication, the communication came from Takamatsu Sensei, according to Tanemura Sensei

In closing I would say that whoever your teacher is, is your teacher, and arguements, such as my dad can beat up your dad really only result in futility and victory in the mind only, it will not make your Ninpo any better. For me Tanemura Sensei is my teacher and I am proud and honored to be a part of his lineage, as well as Takamatsu Sensei, but I never knew Takamatsu Sensei and good chance that Takamatsu Sensei would have never accepted foreigners as students. If you follow Mr. Hatsumi, or Mr. Manaka, or Tanemura Sensei, we must all be thankful that we are even able to train in tis art, and glean more similarities than differences when our paths cross.
__________________
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-cho
http://fudoshindojo.ieasysite.com/


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well if Tanemura gave that to Hatsumi Sensei why would he still be in possesion of it?


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## Ninpo81

I know this is an old discussion, I have not been on here or any martial forums for ages and do not plan on returning. Training is more important for me now; I realize not much can be learned from seeking questions on the net but for the next one like me I leave you this.

 Most of you on here will remember me as the beginner who was seeking answers about authentic ninpo. I went off and took a look at genbukan; was even swayed and almost joined the org what an idiot I would have been. I did waste a good deal of money on tanemura's basic books, taijutsu dvd and "spirit of ninja" audio cd (RIP OFF!) only one of the many red flags I noticed while investigating his organization. I'm not trying to discredit his martial ability, he indeed is a very good martial artist and would definitely kick my *** any day of the week; however I have come to the conclusion that he is a liar and a rip off. I should have heeded Shihan Martin's advice before I even looked into this man but NOO I always gotta learn things the hard way an so be it. Now I can share info with others. Unbiased info at that. An to Shihan Martin if I ever offended you or betrayed your trust I am truly sorry as I was highly mislead by many and very confused due to the mass amount of politics within the american ninpo community. So back to my point and reason for posting. I read Ninpo Secrets countless times, own the ninja fluff documentary put out by Michael Coleman, Read Fundamentals of Taijutsu Vol.1 (wow what a lack of information at 30 dollars that was much like the "heart to heart" spiritual audio cd I received for a similar price) Oh by the way that audio cd if you own either of those books above is Tanemura reading (in his very unskilled english) sections from both books with a little kuji chant thrown in for further enticemet; actually fundamental taijutsu should of been included in Ninpo Secrets (most of the information in that book comprises the first two or three chapters in Ninpo Secrets (actually a very informative book if you disregard Tanemura's propaganda of Hatsumi being this evil greedy money machine)  if you ask me..lack of space...*rolls eyes* more like give me your money and I'll feed you just enough to keep you thirsty for more..please stupid american come to my dojo in japan and train real ninja style..how absurd.  His rules are far worse..if you skip a certain number of classes you have to start over from 10th kyu and PAY a large sum of money once again, also if you want scrolls of any of the ryuha they are extremely expensive. Download a copy of the Genbukan rules you may die of a heart attack if you are an average or poor citizen and have no way to ever come up with these amounts of money witout Genbukan being your soul entire reason for livng ('true ninja was just a citizen or farmer'-Shoto Tanemura). 

Anyway it seems like I"m doing a lot of bashing and I may be a tad but I'm quite enraged and it's not just because I wasted time and money investigating this lying sack of ****. But because I stumbled upon this as well; an old interview with Hatsumi that cleared up a few 'rumors' that had been floating around this board and others on the net.

Here it is for anyone who is interested a link to the real mag can also be found below:

Blackbelt Magazine October 1986

'HATSUMI: Tanemura-san and I are distant cousins. Last year, my mother died and Tanemura-san came to the fueral, where he got involved in a scuffle with a policeman who was his senior.
They didn't have a good relationship and split over something, resulting in a fight. When Tanemura-san was a policeman, this official was senior to him, but in ninjutsu, Tanemura-san was higher and was
frustrated because he wanted to obtain a higher (police) rank than his senior. I tried to intervene in the fight, but was unsuccessful, then afterward I tried to heal the trouble between the two. But I have never
tried to control Tanemura or anyoneelse, and didn't try to order Tanemura around. Tanemura-san wants strict control of his students and wants to be the boss.
But I can't agree with this approach because I feel that everyone is equal, and I have no interest in controlling others. However, he was anxious to become the master of his own ninjutsu school and put himself in a position of being able to control
others. Everyone knows that Tanemura doesn't have enough ninjutsu skills for setting up his own school. His fighting at the funeral showed that he wasn't qualified to be the head of a ninjutsu school. I don't regard Tanemura-san as my rival. He has a bogus school and doesn't
have the real ninjutsu spirit. Tanemura-san wanted to be number one and started his own school so he could be number one, but he teaches a different kind of ninjutsu because the heart and spirit are different.'

Ninja Seishin Towa Shin Shin..blah blah blah my ***; Tanemura is a Hypocrite and as someone in another Ninpo org once told me; he's a nut as well. His master level tests are catching bare blades with your bare hand and feeling the spirit of the blade not the person but a piece of metal....wow...good luck to whatever 8th dan decides to try that one..yeah I noticed that most of the Genbukan members are 8th dan no one has gone higher..wonder why seeing as 9th dan test requires this test or one quite similar to it I forget. But I know when I read it the words "tanemura is crazy" echoed in the back of my head. Yes someone told me this once and I should have listened to him.

So enough of my ranting..SORRY to everyone I'm just kind of angry right now.

I have not seen this quoted or posted on any forum so I figured it was worth posting for someone else before they too get dupped by tanemura and his genbukan scam.

Here is the link I got it from: http://books.google.com/books?id=zd...resnum=4&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false


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## Brian R. VanCise

Ninpo81, I am sorry you had a bad experience with the Genbukan and while I practice Budo Taijutsu within the Bujinkan I will say that the Genbukan in my opinion is a quality organization.  *Is it expensive to practice a true budo way?* Generally it is!  I have and do not keep track of how much I personally have spent because I might be upset about it in the future. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Tanemura Sensei is a fabulous martial practitioner and having meet a few Genbukan people they were all quality people as well.  Disagreements happen between people all the time and people will leave organizations for their different reasons.  Some times people need to move on and grow in a different direction.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Again my heart and mind in Budo reside in the Bujinkan!  However, I always try to keep an open mind!  Just my 02!


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## Bruno@MT

Ninpo81 said:


> I did waste a good deal of money on tanemura's basic books, taijutsu dvd and "spirit of ninja" audio cd (RIP OFF!) only one of the many red flags I noticed while investigating his organization. I'm not trying to discredit his martial ability, he indeed is a very good martial artist and would definitely kick my *** any day of the week; however I have come to the conclusion that he is a liar and a rip off.



The book is designed to be useless without actual in person training. Many of the pictures show smaller or bigger errors, or are printed in mirror to confuse left and right. This was done on purpose.




Ninpo81 said:


> Anyway it seems like I"m doing a lot of bashing and I may be a tad but I'm quite enraged and it's not just because I wasted time and money investigating this lying sack of ****. But because I stumbled upon this as well; an old interview with Hatsumi that cleared up a few 'rumors' that had been floating around this board and others on the net.



So in a case of he-said-she-said on the internet, concerning 2 people you've never met and probably never will, from a culture you have no understanding of, you judge something to be true because it was written in an article?



Ninpo81 said:


> e knows that Tanemura doesn't have enough ninjutsu skills for setting up his own school.



He was 8th dan at the time of the split, and held menkyo kaiden in many arts incl Togakure ryu. If that is not enough to start a school, then what is? And he was accepted as student by several of Takamatsu sensei's old studentswhere he earned other menkyo kaiden.

If the story you mention was true, he would not have been accepted by each of them.



Ninpo81 said:


> I have not seen this quoted or posted on any forum so I figured it was worth posting for someone else before they too get dupped by tanemura and his genbukan scam.



then you haven't looked very hard. many versions and sides of that story float around on the internet.


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## derobec

Hi,

Firstly, let me clearly state that I have no connection with any of the schools which are being discussed in this thread although I was once (many years ago) a kyu grade in the Bujinkan. 

What I find pointless is that these 'issues' are still being argued over after almost thirty years.

Back in the mid eighties it was interesting, simply because of the general lack of information. Up untill then it was Bujinkan or nothing; all of a sudden we were presented with another place in which to learn the arts that make up what later became known as Takamatsu-den/X-kan. 

Yes, the manner in which the training was being offered was different, but lets be sure of one thing; untill Tanemura sensei broke away from the Bujinkan dojo he was unquestionably one of Hatsumi sensei's right hand men. 

Now, as to whether he had been 'taught everything', who knows? Although the fact that he received menkyo in various of the schools would suggest that he was in fact worthy of such licences. I appreciate the often quoted references to Hatsumi sensei sometimes giving grades beyond a student's current ability as an incentive but I'd always imagined that that was really just the blackbelt grades. It hadn't occurred to me that the original licences which he issued were also given as 'incentives'. The fact that Tanemura sensei's SFR licence was apparently issued (by Hatsumi sensei) before Takamatsu sensei died would imply (to an outsider with only a basic knowledge of the Takamatsu-den) that it was the 'real thing'.

Here we are, twenty six years after the split, still worrying why/what/who/how. Who cares? Both schools are still going strong. The people that want to train in these arts will each be attracted to a paticular school for their own reasons and that, in my oppinion, is how it should be. Raking up a magazine article that has been in the public domain since the mid eighties to show just one side of the 'arguement' seems a pointless thing to do.

Anyway, Best Wishes to all,
William


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## Bruno@MT

derobec said:


> What I find pointless is that these 'issues' are still being argued over after almost thirty years.



Aye. Big +1.

All 3 X kan heads are legitimate masters of the traditional arts from which they composed their system. All the rest is really not that relevant. The only people to whom it would concern are the soke themselves.

For all the rest of us, the only thing that matters is the legitimacy of their arts. And for all 3 kans this is not a problem. All 3 have a different way of teaching, so just find the one that is best for you and practise.

My heart is with Genbukan. To each his own I'd say. All 3 are equally valid.


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## Ninpo81

I may have been a bit harsh given the state of mind I was in. That's not the only reason I was angry. I also had been reading a bunch of claims on bullshido that Tanemura's other teacher's never actually had one on one time with Takamatsu and studied from letters. I also have learned that his story about being the winner in the court case was false. An that the Japanese gave favor to Hatsumi in that case...Never the less I came on here to apologize. Whoever made the statement about not caring about this matter is correct. I shouldn't really care. I guess Tanemura is just a little too..uncertain for me to want to place all my time and what little money I make into. I haven't really seen one shread of proof that any of these ex students (other than Hatsumi) was ever his teacher..one photo maybe two in Ninpo Secrets...not enough proof for me. Like I said before he's an excellent martial artists I definitely will give him that; but as for training under him, that's something I can't do because you can't train under someone you can't trust and I think this guy no matter how much I wanted to believe he was the real deal; there is just too much uncertainty for me. Again I appologize for my rude remarks I shouldn't have bashed the Genbukan the way I did. From what I've seen Genbukan students have a great amount of skill and it was wrong for me to say things in the manner I said them.


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## derobec

Hi Ninpo81,

I'm sure we can all appreciate your apology. 

To be honest though, I can't but help think that the people who should be apologizing (to you, and to themselves if they have any self respect) are the ones on that other forum who've been writing some of the nonsense which has effected your own judgement. 

Now, as I wrote before, I've no connection to the Genbukan. However, I'm pretty sure that it's a sound vehicle for learning good solid martial arts; the financial costs of training, no matter which art/s we choose, are invariably high _(and so long as we keep learning, never ending!)._ For us mortals without unlimited funds there is simply no way around that one -the best we can do is to keep going to the best of our abilities.

I hope that you continue to train in the Takamatsu-den arts as you obviously have a true interest in them which so far hasn't been given a fair chance (but to be honest, anything will do so long as you're doing something). Forget the politics and petty back-biting, it's not worthy behaviour for a martial arts student to be engaged in, as Bruno@MT wrote "...the only thing that matters is the legitimacy of their arts...".

There are plenty of 'forum assassins' lurking in the shadows ever ready to write something nasty. By ignoring them to the best of our ability we can take away most of their power (not that they'll ever be allowed any power over me).

As my gran used to drum into me when I was a child "The least said is The soonest mended"

Best Wishes & Good Training

William


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## EWBell

Ninpo81, who on bullshido is in a position to know which of Tanemura Sensei's teachers had trained with Takamatsu Sensei or not?  Sorry but Bullshido is not the be all end all of martial arts debunking, and things I read there I take with a grain of salt like I would anywhere else.  I personally know of people who have trained with Sato Kinbei sensei and Tanemura Soke at the same place.  The Kuki family even recognizes the teacher/student relationship between these two.  As far as the court case goes, I have no clue, and I'd venture to say that anything you've heard thus far is hearsay.  There are more than a few folks in other organizations who would love to put Tanemura Soke in a bad light because they believe they have the only road of transmission for certain arts.

Did you ever have a teacher in the Genbukan, or were you one of those folks who tried to train on their own?  BTW, the shihan test for 8th dan is with a live blade, and as you can see there are several who have passed it.  No one has taken the 9th dan test yet because they aren't ready, but I'm sure someone will.


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## Bruno@MT

The shihan test is indeed already with a live blade. It is also worth noting that one doesn't get to ask for the test. It is Tanemura sensei who decides when you are ready.

As for evidence about the relation between Takamatsu sensei to his other students and then on to Tanemura sensei: As was already mentioned this is recognized by the kuki family. Tanemura sensei also has the Togakure-ryu densho that belonged to Fukumoto Yoshio, which was orignally issued by Takamatsu sensei.


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## Ninpo81

I stand corrected. An once again apologize. 
Yes I am one who tried to train on his own because I don't really know who to trust. Too many people want to make money off of each other and too many people have a different version to stories which in my opiinion AUTHENTICATE the teacher. I'm not paying someone mass amounts of money to learn something that isn't true Takamatsuden. But again I'm sorry. I guess I'll have to look into this further.


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## Bruno@MT

No worries. It is easy to get confused.
When I found genbukan, (before I knew anything about the kan background at all) I did a lot of research before signing up, just to make sure that I was not joining someones fantasy world.

Unfortunately even the legitimate organizations have their share of controversy. I've read many accounts of the funeral incident, and the comments by both Takamatsu sensei and Tanemura sensei. The only thing I can concluded is that both are human beings with their own perception of what really happened.

And that incident was probably only the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Tanemura sensei was Hatsumi sensei's right hand man for years so I don't think a single incident would cause such a falling out.

However, I read hundreds of forum posts, blog posts and other articles, and managed to come to the following conclusion:
1) Noone will probably get the full story behind the various controverses.
2) All 3 heads of their respective xkan legitimately hold menkyo kaiden for the arts of which their systems are composed.

With that in mind, I was confident enough to become a member of Genbukan and realized that it didn't really matter, outside of personal preference for the training methods.


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## stephen

I think it's probably not worth talking about the personal differences between Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Tanemura. 

Their martial arts now have almost nothing to do with each other, from my point of view. So there's plenty of material to make a decision between one or the other without getting into personal matters. 

To me it's like comparing two books from the opposite sides of the library, sure, they're both written in English, but that's about where the similarities end.


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## Troy Wideman

Hello Ninpo81,

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with the Genbukan and I appreciate your apology. Part of the problem is that you did not have a direct teacher to lead you in a proper direction. In relation to the cost of material, you will find that all organizations charge a fee for material and the Genbukan's is on par with other organizations. As you said it was your choice to buy the CD's and the books, this was how you decided to learn the art. I will be the first to admit that if you tried to buy all the CD's and books it could get expensive. Learning just from CD's is not advisable to begin with, they are just used as a reference. 
However, in saying that, I spent thousands of dollars to fly to Japan and study with Tanemura Sensei because that was my choice. There was no one forcing me to make this decision, I choose to put my money there. I do not regret it one ounce. I think the fees that are charged for gradings in the Genbukan are actually very reasonable. For example, a shodan is only $100 dollars american, with a testing fee added which is usually around $50. I know for a fact that an aikido shodan is around $500. It really just depends on the organization. In relation to receiving Makimono, in any traditional organization, this is expensive. However, again it is not forced on you to buy. If you wish you can just have a certificate that says you are of the rank. I choose to have the makimono but again that is an individuals choice. Tanemura sensei, allowed me to take the makimono home without paying and send him the money later, he is very giving when he gets to know you personally as his student.
In relation to the court case you made reference to, this actually had nothing to do with martial arts, it was a family arguement over land and the issue of Tanemura sensei's Gikan ryu licence and grandmastership was brought into the court case. Tanemura sensei had to produce his scrolls that were given to him by Sato Kinbei sensei. The martial art side of the court case was an side thing that got dragged into it. However, as everyone has stated this is old information and does not need to be dragged back up.

How someone runs his business is really not anyone's concern, if it is a concern they do not buy the product that the company produces. For example; in Canada we have Future shop and Best buy, both companies are owned by the same corporation, however, things are more expensive in Future shop and people still buy there. It comes down to personal preference.

I wish you luck with your training. If you are ever up in the great white north, please come by my dojo. I will allow you to train for free for 1 week. Maybe we can change your impression of the Genbukan for the better. 
All three organizations have something good to offer, it is just up to you to decide which organization fits you best.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## SensibleManiac

> Tanemura sensei, allowed me to take the makimono home without paying and send him the money later, he is very giving when he gets to know you personally as his student.



You mean he's very trusting, if he was giving he would just give you the makimono. According to your example.

I'm not saying that he isn't giving, maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
What I'm saying is that people often talk about their "teachers" with a reverence that clouds their critical thinking.

This is one thing that I strongly disagree with in these arts.

Martial arts are ultimately about the people who practice them and the benefits they can bring in their lives, they should never be about the "art" itself or the "gurus" behind them.

I'm not saying that this is the case here, just that my experience with the Genbukan has been less than great and very stifling, in terms of martial arts training.


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## Troy Wideman

hello Sensible Maniac,

I am sorry to hear that. Who did you train with and how long?

Well I don't think my critical thinking has been compromised but I understand where you are coming from.

Any traditional japanese martial art or chinese for that matter can be to westerners very stifling because you have the culture mixed in with the martial art. I guess if you want to train in a traditional art this is something you have to come to understand and deal with. I trained with Quing Fu Pan as well and you could say the way he approached training, would be considered stifling to most westerners also.

All the best.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Gary Arthur

Ninpo 81 Posted



> I did waste a good deal of money on tanemura's basic books, taijutsu dvd and "spirit of ninja" audio cd (RIP OFF!) only one of the many red flags I noticed while investigating his organization.


 
Actually I think that the books that Mr Tanemura produces are very good and Ninpo secrets possible the best book ever written on Ninpo. Fundamentals of Taijutsu is a grading book, it not intended to be a sit down and learn book.



> I'm not trying to discredit his martial ability, he indeed is a very good martial artist and would definitely kick my *** any day of the week;


 
As a friend of mine once said "Hatsumi is the superstar and Tanemura is the performer"



> however I have come to the conclusion that he is a liar and a rip off.


 
OK I would not go so far as that but I have several problems with what I have heard and read.

Firstly regardless of what others say Mr Tanemura did mention his times training with Mr Takamatsu even though many have pointed out that it was on one occasion only.

Secondly the miraculous dream he had when travelling on a plane to initiate again Hakuun ryu. 

Thirdly the ridiculous claims he makes about the Amatsu tatara originating from Babylon.



> So back to my point and reason for posting. I read Ninpo Secrets countless times, own the ninja fluff documentary put out by Michael Coleman, Read Fundamentals of Taijutsu Vol.1 (wow what a lack of information at 30 dollars that was much like the "heart to heart" spiritual audio cd I received for a similar price) Oh by the way that audio cd if you own either of those books above is Tanemura reading (in his very unskilled english) sections from both books with a little kuji chant thrown in for further enticemet; actually fundamental taijutsu should of been included in Ninpo Secrets (most of the information in that book comprises the first two or three chapters in Ninpo Secrets


 
No it doesnt.



> (actually a very informative book if you disregard Tanemura's propaganda of Hatsumi being this evil greedy money machine)


 
I cant remember that although i always find it strange that Mr Tanemura always tends to ignore all those years of training with Dr Hatsumi in his bio.



> if you ask me..lack of space...*rolls eyes* more like give me your money and I'll feed you just enough to keep you thirsty for more..please stupid american come to my dojo in japan and train real ninja style..how absurd.


 
Well I have attended a few seminars and asked questions only to be told "When you are fifth dan". Maybe he has a point and maybe I wasnt ready but it still smacks of dangling a carrot.



> His rules are far worse..if you skip a certain number of classes you have to start over from 10th kyu and PAY a large sum of money once again,


 
With this I can agree with. I started in the Genbukan in the 1980s and attended quite a few seminars. I eventually earned 1st kyu black belt and then was given (Without testing) a black belt. I sent off my money for my grade and that of my students and the nidan tapes (Tapes at the time not DVDs) and received nothing. After several calls to Japan i gave up. I left shortly after that.

Anyway last year I thought about joining again and contacted the local British Representative. He contacted Mr Tanemura and I was told that I would have to begin all over again. There is no way after spending 6 years in the Genbukan being a group leader having to start all over again. Back then I was good enough to send Mr Tanemura money from my students for their grading ( A Grade I had given them) but years on i'm worth nothing even though I have continued training and gained other grades including a black belt under Stephen K Hayes (A ex students of Mr Tanemura).

Garth


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Garth,

Hope your training is going well under Stephen Hayes.

In regards to you having to retest all over again, this is a quality control thing for the organization and it is Tanemura Sensei's rule. I am not sure how that is a bad thing? I understand you have been training in Toshindo and even though it has roots to our training it would be different and as you have stated you have been away for a few years. It only makes sense that you would have to redo things. I would imagine that you would fast track to a certain degree over a few things. However, I did not partake in the conversation with Tanemura Sensei about you joining, so I am not sure what was discussed. I myself was a high rank in the bujinkan and had to restart. It was my decision and was a good one.

In relation to the Hakuun Ryu thing, this was a private conversation between student and teacher and it hit the internet which is always a problem. Many people receive inspiration in many ways, just look at other notable people in the world or any other koryu organization. You will notice in the different koryu histories there are stories like this all over the place. However, this has been discussed numerous times and rehashed and rehashed. Not really that big of a deal in my mind. So he had a dream and felt inspired by it!! I think more people need to be inspired by things and to have dreams! Hahahhaha. 

Sorry, we didn't get a chance to meet, I mean if you would have joined. Anyways, all the best.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Gary Arthur

Troy Wideman posted



> Hope your training is going well under Stephen Hayes.


Not under Stephen Hayes anymore hense why I looked at rejoining the Genbukan. 



> In regards to you having to retest all over again, this is a quality control thing for the organization and it is Tanemura Sensei's rule.


I understand the quality control thing i really do. BUT isnt it too much that someone starts from the beginning. After all Mushadori is still Mushadori.

Lets try to equate that with something else. For example lets imagine I was a plumber and took a few years out. Then I decided to take up plumbing again, would I be asked to start at stage one again?

No of course not. I might have to sit my corgi exam again and do a refresher course maybe, but to start from stage one?



> I am not sure how that is a bad thing? I understand you have been training in Toshindo and even though it has roots to our training it would be different and as you have stated you have been away for a few years.


Yes redo a few things but as i said, mushadori is mushadori and a front roll is a front roll. Or is it a case of "Get your black belt with the Genbukan but if you dont carry on training your grade is worthless"?



> In relation to the Hakuun Ryu thing, this was a private conversation between student and teacher and it hit the internet which is always a problem.


Strange I thought it was in one of the old BUFU magazines and was available to all Genbukan members.

But besides the point whether its private or not the guy still claims to have had a miraculous message from the heavens.

Which actually makes me wonder what things he says in private to his students.



> Many people receive inspiration in many ways, just look at other notable people in the world or any other koryu organization. You will notice in the different koryu histories there are stories like this all over the place.


And I would say those people are deluded too. An argument from ad populorum does not make something true. Did you know that in the medieval period people believed that mental illness was caused by demons. Gee I guess if the people believed it then it must have been OK.



> However, this has been discussed numerous times and rehashed and rehashed. Not really that big of a deal in my mind.


Well its all down to what you want to believe. if your happy believing in the so called miraculous messages from heaven thats fine by me. Personally I want a little bit more evidence.



> So he had a dream and felt inspired by it!! I think more people need to be inspired by things and to have dreams! Hahahhaha.


Great I had a dream that I met Takamatsu and he asked me to teach Togakure ryu, in fact he visits me every night in my dreams and teaches me. Everyone please come to my seminars and pay me lots of money. I feel inspired.



> Sorry, we didn't get a chance to meet, I mean if you would have joined. Anyways, all the best.


Thank you.

Garth


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Gary,

First off a Plumber has the same standard where ever they go. The techniques don't vary. However, I would say that the techniques vary from org to org. This is my view. 
Now obviously you had these views about Tanemura sensei when you were deciding to join a year ago and it seems like you have some animosity towards the organization. Why then did you want to join? Maybe this was portrayed to the person you asked to join through and he passed on this message to Tanemura Sensei. Just something to consider.

Inrelation to you having dreams of Takamatsu teaching you, is a little different then Tanemura Sensei having an inspiration to restart something based on his previous skill. However, I don't know why we are even discussing this, he did not start it up. Also, I was not part of the conversation so I cannot tell you exactly what Tanemura sensei said, I can only go off of what I was told by senior members of the org.

Inrelation to your black belt. I thought you said it was given to you and you did not publicly test for it. This might be the reason you had to do everything over and that would make sense. In relation to doing everything over, this does not necessarily mean you would to have to pay for those ranks, you might just had to have been signed off by someone that is current and viewed you doing the patterns. This way someone that is current over sees the patterns and makes sure you are on par with what is expected.
 I have done this before myself, however, I am not sure of your situation. Since it seems you have a bit of animosity towards Tanemura Sensei and the internet can be searched and past messages can be brought up, this is what might have occurred. I know if someone in Canada wants to join, I do a mini investigation into them to determine if they should and then I report my finding to Tanemura Sensei because it is ultimately up to his decision.

However, it really doesn't matter because you are not part of the organization. I wish you luck in your search, you might want to think about Manaka's organization, they have a lot of great guys.


All the best,

Troy Wideman


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## Kevin Geaslin

One of the things I enjoy most about the Genbukan is the quality control, and the fact that hon-gyaku is the same from dojo to dojo. I also like the fact that everyone doesn't sell their own DVDs and books and host their own large seminars like in other organizations; all the knowledge comes from the Hombu staff or the listed seniors on the website, whose credentials are clearly listed. 

Yes, training in a traditional art costs money, but honestly, joining the Genbukan isn't very much. Once you have your membership, gi and patch, you're looking about less than 50 dollars a year. If you can't foot that bill, you probably don't have the gas to drive to a dojo anyways. If you choose to join multiple organizations under the umbrella (Kokusai, Koryu Karate, etc) and choose to buy ryuha DVDs and Shoden manuals and test in sword and bo and go to every Japanese and American and UK Taikai, then you are free to do so, but it costs more. 

I can't imagine that anyone training in ninpo would feel "ripped off" by the Kihon Taijutsu manual, which contains more instruction than decades-worth of books by other ninpo authors. But even that is made to accompany proper instruction, or you'll get it all wrong. I even know some Bujinkan practicioners who have made similar books for their dojo, so that new students have some concept of what they need to work on, rather than just doing something new every night. That's fun to do, but doesn't build solid basics.


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## Gary Arthur

Troy Wideman posted



> First off a Plumber has the same standard where ever they go. The techniques don't vary.


 
Then if they dont vary then the techniques I learnt in 1994 should be the same as in 2010.



> However, I would say that the techniques vary from org to org. This is my view.


 
Agreed although I would say that I still practice the kihon in the same vein as the Genbukan. In fact one of the things I have seen missing in other orgs is the fact that many do not have the basics, and a spell in the Genbukan might actually put that right.

This is a plus point for the Genbukan.



> Now obviously you had these views about Tanemura sensei when you were deciding to join a year ago and it seems like you have some animosity towards the organization.


 
I dont have any animosity towards the organisation, theres too much water under the bridge. Apart from the money I sent to Japan I never lost anything, I just think its bizarre that one has to start from the bottom again.

Why not some kind of test?

After all I remember the days when Mr Tanemura was giving out grades like confetti. My own instructor Peter Brown was given 4th dan in genbukan because he was a 4th dan in Bujinkan.

Which kind of makes your point about differences between organisations irrelevant. 

I also remember a big hoo haa in Belgium where Mr Tanemura had graded someone to a high grade and the local group leaders were up in arms saying that this person was not worth this grade. And Mr Tanemuras responce was "I have taught him secret Ninja techniques"



> Why then did you want to join?


 
I wanted somewhere to go to continue my training. Its as simple as that. But I damn sure aint going to pay to learn to stand in Ichimonji once again.



> Maybe this was portrayed to the person you asked to join through and he passed on this message to Tanemura Sensei. Just something to consider.


 
maybe, maybe not.



> Inrelation to you having dreams of Takamatsu teaching you, is a little different then Tanemura Sensei having an inspiration to restart something based on his previous skill. However, I don't know why we are even discussing this, he did not start it up.


 
It doesnt matter if he started it or not, it still means he is saying that he had a divine message from the gods. Check out Bufu Magazine.

And before we go on lets check out this statement from Amatsu Tatara magazine. In this he is talking about the Tara and the ancient Irish people and the standing stones there. The author of the article Brian O'Dubhaigh says..."We talked about the ancient people who came from Tara from Egypt and Israel, bringing with them sacred stones".

By this I believe he means the standing stones.

Strange though because talking as an archaeologist (BA Degree) I would find it incredible that any archaeologist, geneticist or historian would back up this story. 

I'm not even going to go into the part with the white cat and the white horse symbol being a symbol of the archangel.

By the way Newgrange is dated to about 3000 BC which makes the following article about Egyptian settlers from Egypt arriving in 1396 BC from the tribe of Moses and these people bringing with them certain stones a bit of a puzzle. Where does Mr Tanemura get his evidence?

Maybe Mr Tanemura knows something that has evaded all those archaeologistsand historians.

But then this idea is as full of holes as some of his claims regarding the Amatsu Tatara coming from Babylon.

By the way this expansion from Egypt is also not backed up by DNA evidence for the period.

Unfortunately some of these ideas of Stonehenge etc being brought from places like Greece and Egypt tend to be still banded about but were in fact based on the ideas of Piggott, Smith and Vere Gordon Childe the latter of who was a famous Marxist archaeologist. These ideas found favour in the 1930s. Dating techniques have now shown that places like Newgrange and Stonehenge were not based on the pyramids or Greek temples as Stonehenge was started before the Pyramids were built or at least if nothing else they were contemporary.

Just off point a little bit but years ago I learns a secret mantra which a wise man told me to repeat when someone tells me something. Its this...

"WHERES THE EVIDENCE"

Its a good thing to bear in mind when people start telling you about alternative histories.




> Also, I was not part of the conversation so I cannot tell you exactly what Tanemura sensei said, I can only go off of what I was told by senior members of the org.


 
OK



> In relation to your black belt. I thought you said it was given to you and you did not publicly test for it. This might be the reason you had to do everything over and that would make sense.


 
I have no problem taking my black belt test again, but when I was having sent to me students (To my home and dojo) by the UK leader in the Genbukan at that time for them to learn their black belt grade from me, then you tend to think you might actually be worth that grade.

But even so, even if I was only 1st Kyu (Yep still waiting for that certificate yet graded in scotland with Robert Hanson as my Uke) one would still think that a test might be in order instead of going through it all again.

Thats all i'm saying.



> In relation to doing everything over, this does not necessarily mean you would to have to pay for those ranks,


 
I think it did.



> you might just had to have been signed off by someone that is current and viewed you doing the patterns. This way someone that is current over sees the patterns and makes sure you are on par with what is expected.


 
Maybe (See above)



> I have done this before myself, however, I am not sure of your situation. Since it seems you have a bit of animosity towards Tanemura Sensei


 
I dont really have any animosity towards tanemura or his organisation, I just feel a little sorry for people that get taken in by these bizarre claims of things like Tara, Amatsu tatara and Miraculous visions. But then some people believe in the Da Vinci code.



> and the internet can be searched and past messages can be brought up,


 
Dont quite get what you saying here.



> this is what might have occurred. I know if someone in Canada wants to join, I do a mini investigation into them to determine if they should and then I report my finding to Tanemura Sensei because it is ultimately up to his decision.


 
Again i'm not sure where your coming from. Mr Tanemura knows me from old, so are you saying to check out any convictions that type of thing?



> However, it really doesn't matter because you are not part of the organization. I wish you luck in your search, you might want to think about Manaka's organization, they have a lot of great guys.


 
Thanks Troy. I'm OK where I am. Good luck with the training.

Regards Garth


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Gary,

As you stated it was in 1994, and it is now 2010, and you have been doing different things. Therefore, this is why quality control should kick in. Things change in any organization over time and 16 years is a long time to think you can just pop back in at your same rank.
As I said, it would not necessarily mean starting from the bottom but having someone that is qualified viewing all your techniques to make sure they are fine. I have to constantly ensure that everyone in Canada is sticking to the curriculum because people forget and write their notes wrong. Things in 1994, were a lot different in the Genbukan than today. There might have been a time when honorary ranks were given out in the Genbukan but I know that was not  from 1993 on. However, it was done for the jujutsu at one time but that stopped because of all the problems it created. Which it obviously created with your old teacher. So it does not make my point irrelevant because 1994 and 2010 is more then a decade in difference.

Now your quoting heresay about the issue in Belgium. What seminar, who told you that etc. Not that I really care, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up.

Inrelation to the bufu message, sometimes things can be misconstrued and lost in translation and this happens all the time. But why are you bringing this up if you do not have animosity towards our organization.

Inrelation to the Amatsu Tatara, I really can't comment on it to a great extent because I have not studied it in great detail. However, I say again, why is someone's ideas of a system that you know nothing about bothering you. Again I say, this points that you have a hidden agenda and have some animosity towards the Genbukan.

Inrelation to you been sent students to train for their black belt, this sounds strange to me. I would have to look into it. This would not happen in the US or Canada and it should not happen in the UK but again I would have to dig into what you are saying and I try not to dig into other countries politics because I have enough issues of my own to deal with.

In relation to me saying I would investigate the person. I mean I would do an internet search and call them on anything they said about the organization to me. Its easy to spout off on the internet, much harder to do it face to face. I would also check their martial art history etc. I would also get permission to run a criminal records check. If they decline, they don't join, simple as that. I take pride in the Canadian Genbukan and we have no issues. Everyone is friends and trains hard and I will not have a wanker "sorry for a lack of a better description" come into our group and ruin what we have built. It is ultimately up to Tanemura Sensei but I usually do a thorough investigation.

Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei knowing you from old, I would say he made a good decision with the way you are talking about the organization. You would have brought these feelings into the organization and caused issues. You obviously have been keeping these things on the back burner since 1994. Therefore, I again say you have an animosity to the organization and it was a good thing you didn't join, for the organization and you.

Again this message is not with any malice, I have never met you before and I can only go with the words that you type on the internet. I can tell you that from the short conversation we are having I wouldn't want you part of the organization in Canada. I don't mean to be mean by saying that but it is just fact. You obviously have issues with Tanemura Sensei, so it would not have been a good fit.

I am curious, why did you leave Toshindo?


Anyways, I have spent way to much time on this but it was an interest conversation.

I wish you the best with what ever direction you decide. If you are up in Canada ever, drop me a line and we will gladly sit down and have a guiness.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Gary Arthur

Hi Troy

You posted

Hi Gary,



> As you stated it was in 1994, and it is now 2010, and you have been doing different things. Therefore, this is why quality control should kick in. Things change in any organization over time and 16 years is a long time to think you can just pop back in at your same rank.
> As I said, it would not necessarily mean starting from the bottom but having someone that is qualified viewing all your techniques to make sure they are fine. I have to constantly ensure that everyone in Canada is sticking to the curriculum because people forget and write their notes wrong. Things in 1994, were a lot different in the Genbukan than today. There might have been a time when honorary ranks were given out in the Genbukan but I know that was not from 1993 on. However, it was done for the jujutsu at one time but that stopped because of all the problems it created. Which it obviously created with your old teacher. So it does not make my point irrelevant because 1994 and 2010 is more then a decade in difference.


 
Maybe, I just cant understand why theres not a test instead. But its tanemuras organisation he can do what he wants.



> Now your quoting heresay about the issue in Belgium. What seminar, who told you that etc.


 
I was there. I sat on the table having dinner with Mr Tanemura when it was brought up by the group instructors.



> Not that I really care, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up.


 
Just saying that its not always that people start from the bottom.



> Inrelation to the bufu message, sometimes things can be misconstrued and lost in translation and this happens all the time. But why are you bringing this up if you do not have animosity towards our organization.


 
Because I hate people being led astray by superstition and bull, and this seems to me like complete bull.



> Inrelation to the Amatsu Tatara, I really can't comment on it to a great extent because I have not studied it in great detail. However, I say again, why is someone's ideas of a system that you know nothing about bothering you.


 
Because when people say things about history that are not based on any evidence and in fact go contrary to the scientific findings its often that they are again talking from a position of ignorance. 



> Again I say, this points that you have a hidden agenda and have some animosity towards the Genbukan.


 
The only agenda I have, and its not hidden is against people that speak from positions of authority with any understanding of what they are talking about.



> Inrelation to you been sent students to train for their black belt, this sounds strange to me. I would have to look into it.


 
Oh it happened.



> This would not happen in the US or Canada and it should not happen in the UK but again I would have to dig into what you are saying and I try not to dig into other countries politics because I have enough issues of my own to deal with.


 
I'll PM you on Monday.



> In relation to me saying I would investigate the person. I mean I would do an internet search and call them on anything they said about the organization to me. Its easy to spout off on the internet, much harder to do it face to face. I would also check their martial art history etc. I would also get permission to run a criminal records check. If they decline, they don't join, simple as that. I take pride in the Canadian Genbukan and we have no issues. Everyone is friends and trains hard and I will not have a wanker "sorry for a lack of a better description" come into our group and ruin what we have built. It is ultimately up to Tanemura Sensei but I usually do a thorough investigation.


 
Good idea.



> Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei knowing you from old, I would say he made a good decision with the way you are talking about the organization. You would have brought these feelings into the organization and caused issues. You obviously have been keeping these things on the back burner since 1994. Therefore, I again say you have an animosity to the organization and it was a good thing you didn't join, for the organization and you.


 
As I said, the techniques in the organisation are superb, its just some of the things that go with it, i.e. the wild claims.

Now maybe Mr Tanemura has been lucky in me not joining although last year the door was held open for me.



> Again this message is not with any malice, I have never met you before and I can only go with the words that you type on the internet. I can tell you that from the short conversation we are having I wouldn't want you part of the organization in Canada.


 
Is this because i question the teachings of the Amatsu Tatara?

Sorry Troy your beginning to sound like a creationist who would have us believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and any one that disagrees is a trouble maker.

Surely Troy doubt and questioning is a good thing, or maybe you want your students to accept blindly what your sensei says.



> I don't mean to be mean by saying that but it is just fact. You obviously have issues with Tanemura Sensei, so it would not have been a good fit.


 
I hold no malice against Mr Tanemura if thats what you mean, just that I would question some of the historical claims he makes.

Best regards Troy

Garth


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## Gary Arthur

Troy just to put my concerns in point to you, heres something I posted on Martial arts planet just over 2 years ago...



> Lets put this into perspective.
> 
> 1/ It is claimed that the *amatsu* Tatara is 3000 years old (On some website more)
> 
> 2/ It is claimed that the *Amatsu* Tatara is written in and old script called Kamiyo Moji
> 
> 3/ It is claimed that the original *Amatsu* Tartara was written by King Mima O (A king from Babylon) in 700BC.
> 
> Now lets take a look at these three points.
> 
> 1/ The claim that the *amatsu* Tatara is 3000 years old. How does one go about proving that? Ok maybe through writing, that would be a good way. However writing does not start in japan until about 1300 years ago and this is too late to get any real evidence of what was happening 1,700 years before. Remembering of course that the Yayoi spoke an Altaic language up to 300 AD possibly related to korean, Mongolian and Turkish and actual writing according to scholars did not start until 700 AD. Even the Kojiki, Japans oldest surviving book only dates from 620 AD.
> 
> So how do we prove this story about King Mima O coming from Babylon over a thousand years before?
> 
> We can't. Its a myth, a legend like Robin Hood, King Arthur, or even the holy Grail. Its great reading but it does not prove that Joseph of Arimethea left the holy land and got washed up on the coast of Britain, and the *Amatsu* Tatara cannot prove that a King from Babylon got washed up on the shores of Japan either.
> 
> All we have is the *Amatsu* Tatara telling us that this is what happened, nothing more. In a way its a little like reading Malorys Le Morte DArthur from the 1450s and using that as a source telling us about King Arthur, except of course that the Japanese timeline between the beginnings of writing to this King Mima are longer.
> 
> However theres a get out clause which lead me to point 2.
> 
> Point 2 is that the *Amatsu* Tarara is written in a script called Kamiyo Moji, and therefore the *Amatsu* Tarara was written by this King Mima O, and therefore the story is not myth or legend because it was written down at the time.
> 
> But theres a problem with this. If the *Amatsu* Tatara was written nearly 3,000 years ago, it would make it the oldest Japanese document by 1300 years. remeber that the Kojiki was not written till 620AD. In fact it would make it one of the oldest documents in the world, and would attract world wide attention. It has not attaracted that attention, an why not?
> well possibly one reason for the lack of schoalrly interest is that the scholars that have looked at it believe that the script Kamiyo Moji which apparantly we are told is very old, was invented in the 1930s.
> 
> We have to remember what was happening in the world in the 1930s, and Japan being very nationalistic. I have already spoken about how nazi Germany was trying to prove that the German people came from Sparta and making up all kinds of false eveidence. Is it not likely that Japan did likewise.
> 
> For those interested begin by researching the changes in Shinto in Japan especially in regard to the inclusion of myth into the religion.
> 
> OK some people will say, "But this Kamiyo Moji looks like old Chinese Script"
> 
> Well if I lived on an island off the coast of Britain and i had to invent a language that looked old, the best way to go about it was to write it in a language that looks like old English Runes. That way I get some legitamacy because we can say the language came from the same time as the Rune in Britain. To create something completely new with no connection to another language would be to have the language very quickly shown to be a fake, and one thing that Linguists know is that Languages are related.
> 
> Finally lets turn to this King Mima O that was a king in Babylon but drifted out to sea and landed thousands of miles away on the Islands of Japan.
> 
> Now we know lots of things about Babylon, including king lists, but so far I have found no names of a king Mima O, or of a missing king that got lost at sea. If anyone knows any different i would be interested to hear. But one would have thought a missing king would be heard of, being a quite significant event.
> 
> However there is a king Mima in the Kojiki but this seems to relate to a King Mima which is 5th century AD, Not 6th century BC.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong as someone studying the ninpo arts I would love this *Amatsu* Tatara stuff to be true and I would love someone to prove me wrong, and I mean proof, not "Maybe's".
> 
> Unforunately the claims have more holes in it than the DaVinci code. Sure its a fascinatiing read, but as i said before, start examining the facts and its starts to fall apart both historically and logically.
> 
> Garth


 
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52840&highlight=amatsu&page=4


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Gary,

As I said to you already, I cannot comment much on the amatsu tatara because I do not follow it. It takes me enough effort to just try and finish the ryu ha that I am licenced in.
You are welcome to speculate but you have not seen the scrolls as I have not. So I can't answer your concerns about the amatsu tatara with any authority. If you have some questions the shibu cho in Ireland might be able to shed some more light. Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow. If you would have told someone 60 years ago that we would have had some of the technology we have today, they would have laughed at you. Geez, if you would have said we would be paying $5 for a coffee at starbucks people would have had a heart attack.
No I did not state that I would not accept you because you are questioning the Amatsu Tatara because I really don't care. I do not really follow it and do not have the information to have an intelligent arguement. I would base my decision on your lack of trust in Tanemura Sensei and the organization. Doing a search shows alot. I am not saying your are a bad guy because I really haven't dug to deep into your background. I would base this just on what I feel is a lack of respect to my teacher. Again this would be my decision and I would pass my feelings onto Tanemura Sensei. As I said, maybe this is what transpired but I really don't know. Anyways, enough chatting about Amatsu Tatara because you are looking for a silver bullet and I cannot give you one. Good luck in your searching because I doubt anyone even in the Genbukan can give you the answers other then the shihan or of course Tanemura Sensei. Since you are not in the organization I doubt you will get the chance to ask your questions.

PS: By the way, what is a creationist, hahahha. Guess I'm not one.

I look forward to your PM.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Gary Arthur

Troy Wideman posted



> You are welcome to speculate but you have not seen the scrolls as I have not.


 
Your right I havent, BUT if what is claimed about the Amatsu Tarara is true i.e that

1/ The age of the Amatsu Tatara is the oldest document in Japan by far. If this was the case the Kamiyo Moji Script would be older than the writings found in the Kojiki i.e 620 AD rather than 700 BC.

2/ The distance traveled by King Mima from Babylon in a time most sea going vessels tended to travel by following the coast rather than going to open sea and vast distances like from Babylon to Japan a distance of thousands of miles.

Both of these would overturn both the scientific and historical world. It would be like finding a book with the blue print of Stonehenge written in the Neolithic/Bronze age period. In fact it would overturn world history.

Instead we have a script (Kamiyo Moji) that many scholars say is a fake, we have a king List from Babylon that contains NO King Mima (See below) and we have no evidence to back up the claims of what Mr Tanemura and others claim.

Now I'm willing to accept what is written as a fable, myth or oral tradition, but the moment you start talking about it as fact then you need to back up your statements and that includes Mr Tanemura.

(Footnote. The Kojiki includes a mention of a Mimo O but it is 5th century AD not 6th century BC, and Mr Tanemura mentions Caldia as being in Babylon. Its not it was a state in Korea.)



> Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow.


 
Oh dear, whenever I hear things like that i'm reminded of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. 

The thing is that scientists and historians have a vast amount of evidence covering what we might call history. These include archaeological finds, dating methods, genetics, historical documents etc.

Yet what seems to be happening here with the Amatsu Tatara is that many of the claims go against held beliefs by most if not all scholars that work in this field.

So if you are making a claim i.e that the Amatsu tatara is thousands of years old and that king Mima O came from Babylon then its your teacher that needs to provide the evidence otherwise what he says is without merit.

And by the way saying...

"Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow"

Is a very weak argument and is that sort of argument that one would expect from creationists who try to disprove evolution and want a 6000 year old earth.

This whole Amatsu Tatara thing reminds me of the Turin Shroud. Yes people would love to believe that it was the shroud of Jesus Christ, but once you start examining the weave, colours, fabrics and dating then you get a date of 1300 AD and not the early 1st Century AD.



> If you would have told someone 60 years ago that we would have had some of the technology we have today, they would have laughed at you.


 
Actually I disagree, I think people 60 years ago expected us to be living on Mars by now, but this comment just goes to show how powerful science is not how it can be proven wrong. So this comment by you is just agreeing that science is a very powerful tool to understanding.



> Good luck in your searching because I doubt anyone even in the Genbukan can give you the answers other then the shihan or of course Tanemura Sensei.


 
Then I open this up to any Shihan that want to answer. 

What is the evidence for the claims made about the Amatsu Tatara (See above)



> Since you are not in the organization I doubt you will get the chance to ask your questions.


 
Oh I see its secret Knowledge available to only the few. 

So even though this document/s would overturn science and history for the claims that are made of it, it is to stay a secret except for the few who dont happen to have access to carbon dating, or expertise in history or linguistics. 

Isnt that just a little convenient.

Note: When I talk about No King Mima being in the Babylonian list I do not mean his name would be King Mima. This is not a Babylonian name but a Japanese Translation of a Korean Name. If one looks at the kojiki one will find many mentions of the word "Mima" including the land of Mima. Therefore it would be useful to have the name of King Mimas Babylonian name, which it appears we do not (Or neither Mr Tanemura or Dr Hatsumi have given us yet) but we dont have a Babylonian record of a King going missing at sea at least in that period.

Its possible that King Mima was King Mima Ki (Emperor Sujin) Emperor Sujin was a mystical mysterious figure much like King Arthur who invaded Japan but this would be 3rd 4th century AD and not BC.

Garth


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## Troy Wideman

HI Garth,

Whyyyyy are you so stuck on these scrollsss....Geez. I really couldn't care less. Let me give you an analogy.
I have a friend that is a devote christian, he is constantly speaking about faith and god. I have different views! However my friend is very good at real estate. Just because I don't believe in his belief does that mean that I can't learn from him about real estate? When I say you have animosity towards the organization, you do. You are constantly picking a topic that first off, no one on this forum can give you the answer you seek. Therefore you bring up statements that you can goooo ha huh, see, he is lying. What if it is based on his belief and faith. There are many people around the world that live on faith. 

Now am I saying that this is the case for Tanemura Sensei, NO! As I said before, I do not know! If you want to ask me about Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, I can speak with some authority. However, you also don't know the answer
Who is being more honest here. I am telling you as a higher rank that I do not know much about Amatsu Tatara. Therefore I am not going to agree or disagree. It really does not matter to me. If I get to a level and Tanemura Sensei, says you should learn more of this, then I might.

Now since I answered all kinds of questions..You still have not answered one of mine.

I am curious what happened with Toshindo and you. Why did you quit. I check some other posts and you spoke highly of the art and organization.

Again, I am done talking about Amatsu Tatara, its getting close to the constant arguments on Togakure Ninjutsu. All kinds of people stating things that shouldn't be.

Also, you will be waiting a long time for the shihan to answer you on the forum, they don't waist their time with them. You get into endless arguments and your time would be better spent training. Where I am actually heading at the moment.

Kind Regards,

Troy


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## Gary Arthur

Troy Wideman posted

HI Garth,



> Whyyyyy are you so stuck on these scrollsss....Geez. I really couldn't care less.



Well i could, and after all its your organisations that makes these claims as fact, and coming from a background of history and martial arts I am interested, hence why I have asked the question on numerous occasions.



> Let me give you an analogy.
> I have a friend that is a devote christian, he is constantly speaking about faith and god.



Faith and Fact based evidence are two different things.

Now if Tanemura said "I believe" then it would not be a problem. After all many people believe in alien abduction, Ghosts, mind reading, talking to the dead etc. 

Personally i think they are wrong to do so, but its their belief. But the moment they say "These things are a fact" i'm going to issue that mantra...

"Wheres your evidence"

And as its your organisation that is putting out this information (It is on several websites) then surely the onus is on you (Your group) to give the evidence.

If they cant or they are unwilling to for whatever reason then they can hardly say "You have a grudge against the organisation" just because someone is asking a valid question.



> However my friend is very good at real estate. Just because I don't believe in his belief does that mean that I can't learn from him about real estate?



Of course not. I have already stated that Mr Tanemuras techniques are second to none. Personally i have my doubts about the Togakure Ryu but it doesnt mean that I cant learn from whats taught.

Using your analogy of Christianity I can (As an atheist) find the bible to be a great book of work, I can enjoy listening to carols and hymns and can take inspiration from some of the stories, BUT as soon as someone tells me that the earth is 6000 years old, was created in 6 days and evolution is false i'm going to ask them to produce some kind of evidence for their claims.




> When I say you have animosity towards the organization, you do.



See above. As I said I have asked a question, and you dont know me. Please dont judge.



> You are constantly picking a topic that first off, no one on this forum can give you the answer you seek.



And why not?

Surely if you are studying a martial art thats based on the Amatsu tatara that is making certain claims then its of their interest to check those claims.

As Buddha once said (Or did he) "Take nothing as truth because it comes from authority, not even me"



> Therefore you bring up statements that you can goooo ha huh, see, he is lying.



When have I said that Mr Tanemura is a liar?



> What if it is based on his belief and faith. There are many people around the world that live on faith.



I agree (See above)

If I have a believe that the world is flat, that fine. its a belief. I'm not claiming it to be true.

But if (as a teacher) you are saying something as fact, then its should not be a surprise when someone askes for evidence of the claims.



> Now am I saying that this is the case for Tanemura Sensei, NO! As I said before, I do not know! If you want to ask me about Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, I can speak with some authority. However, you also don't know the answer



Thats why i am asking the question. Gee is it that difficult.

Let me make it easy for you.

Mr Tanemura makes a claim. I ask for the evidence.

Its not for me to disprove the claim, its always in the remit of the person making the claim to prove it.

Although i will say that some of what is written goes contrary to both historical and scientific evidence.



> Who is being more honest here. I am telling you as a higher rank that I do not know much about Amatsu Tatara.



So why do you keep posting?

In my last post I opened the post to anyone that has an answer.



> Therefore I am not going to agree or disagree. It really does not matter to me. If I get to a level and Tanemura Sensei, says you should learn more of this, then I might.



Thats fine, if your not interested, but you really shouldnt say someone has an agenda against your organisation just because they ask questions about some of the claims.



> Now since I answered all kinds of questions..You still have not answered one of mine.
> 
> I am curious what happened with Toshindo and you. Why did you quit.



Personal reasons.



> I check some other posts and you spoke highly of the art and organization.



And I still do. If Mr Hayes came to the Uk on a seminar i would go, and if I could I would attend a seminar with Mr Tanemura too.

I have no problem with the training that Mr Tanemura does, just some of the claims ( and he's not the only one of course)



> Again, I am done talking about Amatsu Tatara, its getting close to the constant arguments on Togakure Ninjutsu. All kinds of people stating things that shouldn't be.



Nothing wrong in people asking awkward questions.



> Also, you will be waiting a long time for the shihan to answer you on the forum, they don't waist their time with them. You get into endless arguments and your time would be better spent training.



So I suggest in the nicest possible way that we stop debating.

The question is open however if someone wants to answer my questions.

Regards Garth


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## jks9199

Guys, let's remember that one of the rules here at MartialTalk is that we don't tolerate fraudbusting.  As long as the conversation remains polite and respectful, and focused on facts, you're OK -- but it's kind of drifting over some thin ice...

So -- have at it, but let's stay within the rules so that we don't have to do anything more formal, OK?


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## Troy Wideman

Hi Garth,

Nop, I am not interested in talking about it further. I wish you luck in your training. I hope we cross paths, so we can have that guiness, however, I doubt our paths will cross with the Genbukan. 

Good luck in your search for a teacher.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Gary Arthur

JKS9199

Point Taken

Troy 

Good luck with your training.

Regards Garth


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## Bruno@MT

I am staying out of the Tanemura - Hatsumi discussion. However: starting all over, I would like to share my opinion about that.

Quite some time ago, I did western jujutsu (jiu-jitsu it was called). After 3 years of hard work I had san-kyu. then one day, a guy drops by with the same belt as I had. He dropped out several years before, and returned with the same rank.

He did not remember the majority of the locks properly, did not know the names, his techniques sucked bad, and he did not know what belonged in which belt level. At that moment, I made up my mind about this issue. If you start over, then you should start all over.

Genbukan is a very technical organization with a significant number of techniques per grade. If you've been away for a long time, what are the odds that you still remember all the techniques and names correctly? do you still know which fingers to use for hanno bon itsu gasho rei? Do you still know how to perform the tai sabaki for the hasso gyaku kesa giri attack and its name? Do you still remember the names for all the techniques you learned and how to perform them to the last detail, for every kyu level?

If the answer to any of those questions is no, then you will understand why you have to pass all tests again. The genbukan rules state that everybody starts at white if they drop out. they also say that the time between exams can be waived if there is a reason (this is up to the chief dojo cho or shibu cho iirc). So while you would start at white, you could perform all tests at an accelerated pace and be back to where you were in short order.

If you've been absent for 15 years, it's not unreasonable to have to prove yourself all over. If high level practisioners can not be relied on to know all the details properly, then how can lower level students be expected to learn proper techniques?


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## DocWard

Bruno@MT said:


> He did not remember the majority of the locks properly, did not know the names, his techniques sucked bad, and he did not know what belonged in which belt level. At that moment, I made up my mind about this issue. If you start over, then you should start all over.
> 
> ....
> 
> So while you would start at white, you could perform all tests at an accelerated pace and be back to where you were in short order.
> 
> If you've been absent for 15 years, it's not unreasonable to have to prove yourself all over. If high level practisioners can not be relied on to know all the details properly, then how can lower level students be expected to learn proper techniques?


 
I agree. It is one of many reasons I have been hesitant to return to my study of Kenpo. The re-learning curve would be a challenge, even though I took copious amounts of notes and still have the majority of them.

It is also one of the many reasons I am considering the Bujinkan


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## repz

What proof is there that all these men have legitimate ninja legacy?

I was told by a friend that Hatsumii has some scroll that he refuses to show historians, and refuses to give it up for dating. And that Tanemura never had any ninja legacy since no proof exists. Also, the official ninja muesum in japan doesnt aknowledge Hatsumi or Tanumera at all, and has the last true ninja documented (and he doesnt teach) by real historians.

I am not ninja-hating or trying to incite anger, this is just a question that I haven been curious about.


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## Bruno@MT

Ok simply put:

Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei both have the proper paperwork (the scrolls) to prove their schooling in the martial arts. Both make no bones about showing it. What they won't do, however, is let other people take those scrolls away. IIRC this was a requirement for being recognized as a koryu (traditional jma) by the major koryu scholars.

It would not be the first time such a scroll gets lost (one was even lost in a taxi reportedly) and by their nature, these are irreplacable. Tanemura sensei, Hatsumi sensei and Manaka sensei can trace their lineage to Takamatsu sensei with the proper paperwork. Tanemura also has scrolls he received from other teachers.

A lot of 'my friend knows a friend who says...' stories circulate on the internet, but anyone willing to spend some time doing research will come to the conclusion that both are legit recipients of those scrolls. Various 3d part witnesses and corroborating evidence exist to put that matter at rest.

Now, the main controverse stems from the fact that Takamatsu sensei did not have some of that paperwork. He was taught by several masters in the course of his life, and did not receive said scrolls for the ninjutsu ryuha. Takamatsu was the first one to write down the major things minus the kuden (oral transmissions). To put this in perspective: for ninjutsu ryu this was not entirely uncommon. Other ninjutsu ryuha have been documented as not having scrolls passed down until the end. There are a couple of reasons for this but the point is that this happened to verified ninjutsu lineages so absence of proof is not proof of absence. And this is another reason the Takamatsu-den ninjutsu ryuha are regarded with some suspicion by the koryu orgnization.

The question is then: What level of confidence do we have that Takamatsu sensei was legit. there is a very good blog post about that matter here, which I suggest you read if you honestly want to have an informed opinion:
http://blog.bushinbooks.com/2006/07/05/authenticity-and-the-bujinkan/print/
It is a lengthy read but well put.


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