# Which Art is the most



## terryl965 (May 17, 2006)

complete Art for Self Defense and what are the main core to that particular Art?
Terry


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## ginshun (May 17, 2006)

Your never going to get a decent consensus to this question.

Everybody is going to claim that there own art is the most comprehensive for self defense.

Kung Fu guys will say Kung fu, Kenpo guys will say Kenpo, Jujutsu guys will say jujutsu, taijutsu guys will say taijutsu, JKD guys will say JKD etc, etc...


Even if people don't claim there own, everybody is never going to agree on which is best, and really, no one art is going to be the best for everybody.


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## terryl965 (May 17, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> Your never going to get a decent consensus to this question.
> 
> Everybody is going to claim that there own art is the most comprehensive for self defense.
> 
> ...


 
I understand that but still we all know certain Arts bring certain elements to the table, the main objective is to see why they believe it is and what core training do they do do to get there?
Terry


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## Phadrus00 (May 17, 2006)

Terry,

It's an interesting question!

When I think about self-defence in it's purest form I think about being able to apply effective, reliable strikes in a variety of situations and ranges and that can be performed under duress.  The techniques need to bea ble to create an opportunity for the defender to escape not to duke it out with the attacker.  It's is an additional bonus if those techniques can be performed by a variety of body types with similar results.

To be honest I have yet to see any one Art that fits all that manifest.  When I teach self-defence classes (typically to women but I have also done co-ed classes as well) I use a blend of several arts.  I think that you need to cover all the ranges to really equip anyone with a basic self-defence toolkit and I have yet to see any one art that can really do all that excellently in all ranges.  I typically draw from the following arts:

1/ Muay Thai - The Elbows and Knees in particular for striking as they are relatively easy to train and can be used effectively even by a beginner with minal damage to themselves.  Training how to punch takes to long and is risky.  Training how to knee is simple and effective.

2/ Silat/Dumog - I select a number of simple and effective takedowns from these arts.  They have some wonderfully great stuff like stepping in the opponents foot and pushing them over, or diving and capturing the leg and shoudering the groin.  You can teach these fairly easy and they don't require great strength.

3/ Arnis/Escrima - I cover a few very basic defences.  Basically controlling the weapons hand, not exposing vital areas, and impromptu weapons like belts, shoes, shirts.  I don't teach any counter-attacks or disarms but rather entrances into take-downs to create an opportunity to escape.  Depending on how much time you had to teach you could certainly add in more information here but I am alwys nervous about giving people false confidence about dealing with weapons.

4/ BJJ/jui-jitsu - basics of being on the ground, why the guard is good and how to escape the mount.  Basic wrist-lock escapes, a straight arm-bar (so they can hurt their husband that evening!  *grin*), a couple os pressure points.  I usually cover a few "oh crap" positions (knife to the throat, choke being applied from behind, etc.) but I don't think those actually get absorbed very well by most.

Add in a lot of agression and awareness training as well and let them hit stuff, hard!



Rob


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## Andrew Green (May 17, 2006)

Depends on what you fnd yourself defending against


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## matt.m (May 17, 2006)

Neat question,

However I believe the question should be answered in the defense move set.  One must look at versatility and practicality.  I am going to go with hapkido.  Yeah, I am guilty of studying it and Tae Kwon Do.  However, I hold my brown 2nd in Judo and have won many medals in greco and freestyle wrestling, while serving in the U.S. Marine Corps.

The reason why I say hapkido is becase there are 25 wrist and clothes techniques. 25 modified techniqes, 10 cane, and 10 one armed throws in the ciriculum.  The wrist and clothes techniques have to be accomplished on both sides (Right and left).  I have scratched the surface as to the ciriculum as to uniqueness to the art as I am studying it.

An argument I hear often is, "Who in the world is going to grab your wrist or clothes?"  The answer is, wrist and clothing grabs are used for training, you must look past it and see the whole package as to the application of the technique.  This is true in any art.  For instance, in conflict you would not always use a side kick or round kick.  Sometimes it is more appropriate to use a front upraising or twist kick.


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## Jonathan (May 17, 2006)

I'm kind of surprised nobody's mentioned krav maga.


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## tshadowchaser (May 17, 2006)

we seem to have lft out Aikido and a few others also.
This question has many answeres sepending on ones point of view.  I would also include hand gun useage but I know that was not included inthe original meaning of the question.
I am not sure a postive answere can be give in this question as many arts hav many SD tchniques in them and it really depends on the instructor and the student.  For poor defence Aikido and judo may be at the top of the list along with track (which is not a martial art). If you want to inclued attacks after the first dfensive move then the door opens wide for most arts


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2006)

Maybe the question could be reworded:  Why do you believe that the art you study is effective for self defense?  Or, Why do you believe that a particular art [enter your choice here] is good for self defense?

This way we get away from comparing one art to another, and rather look at a single art on its own merits.


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## Jenna (May 17, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> For poor defence Aikido and judo may be at the top of the list along with track (which is not a martial art).


Hey now mister tshadowchaser!
Come on over to my Aikido dojo, throw a few punches and we'll just see what we'll see, ha! Just jokin wid ya... Or maybe NOT! Come on over and find out, LOL 

Seriously, to answer mister Flying Crane's paraphrased question...

Folk equate self defense strategy with strong attack. However this is not always smart when (and there will be a WHEN) your attacker is bigger and stronger than you are. In my Aikido I do not meet forceable action with equal and opposite reaction through block and counter but rather use attacker's impulse momentum to help them find the floor or the wall or their pal or whatever.

At the same time with my Aikido, nobody gets dead. And nobody is keen to follow anybody home or think of getting something done afterwards.

Ok so I've used the term MY Aikido simply because Aikido - like each and EVERY art - is what the practitioner wants it to be. I've said somewhere else that if I wanted to tear someone's arm offjust to see what bones were in there, then I'd train my Aikido with that intention. I don't though. I am happy for everybody to WALK AWAY. Thru this, there is less of a chance of post-fight escalation. This is not a HK kung fu flick where the bad guy runs off, in London particularly it seems that everybody "knows" somebody who can "get something done" so I'd rather put someone down so they can get up and walk off rather than seeing what bones really are inside their shoulder and have them hang around outside my house later on.

Preaching? Me? OK, everyone stand for the closing hymn, LOL. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## monkey (May 17, 2006)

To say this art is better than this art I have to quote my teacher Bruce Lee(you say karate  or judo ect is better-thats like saying the box I fight in is better then your box-None show scientific motion-simplistic applications-non telegraphic motion-or self exploring,all look like the founders who started with a guess & then try in application & then it became a system to a religon to a law.All must do it exact or youdont represent that art.A bed of roses is a bed of rose but,add daisys-ect nolanger is it a bed of roses but a flower bed.To be an art example y and the art the other is example  x  you must do all according to that art to represent it but to add x & still call it y is not the art but a cross.Hence Jeet kune do lets you take a move or technique from an art & deploy it if it is Scientificly- non tele graphic motion that is simplisticly deployed & yet lets you utilise its motion to your body structor & not looking like a bunch of robots insynche doing punchs & kicks for an hour.It realy lets you be combative.DojoSai


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## monkey (May 17, 2006)

Sorry I did not have my glasses on & didnt catch a few letters as some look the same time to time.Stigmatisum.SORRY for miss spelled


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## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2006)

Stop!.. Ask yourself how you wanna fight based on your attributes and possible advantages.

1. If your a big guy. grappling or a grappling art may be an option.
2. If you are a fast long legged type and prefer to keep your opponent at bay then perhaps TKD.
3. If you want to trade punches then boxing or Muay thai might be your gig.
4. If you want to fight in what-ever arena your opponent is weakest then Kenpo is your best bet!
Sean


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> 4. If you want to fight in what-ever arena your opponent is weakest then Kenpo is your best bet!
> Sean


 
Not sure I understand what you mean by this one.  Please clarify.  thx.


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## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Not sure I understand what you mean by this one. Please clarify. thx.


The Kenpo I train in makes you learn all ranges and also teaches methods of moving from one to the next without violating principles. Because of your willingness to shift dimensional stages of action, you can effect you opponents timing by playing with his range strength; this would exploit any lack of skill to your advantage.
Sean


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> The Kenpo I train in makes you learn all ranges and also teaches methods of moving from one to the next without violating principles. Because of your willingness to shift dimensional stages of action, you can effect you opponents timing by playing with his range strength; this would exploit any lack of skill to your advantage.
> Sean


 
gotcha.


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## tshadowchaser (May 17, 2006)

jenna,
 I ment to say pure not poor    lol   my bad i fully respet Aikido and judo 

sorry folks i sometimes hit the sen button befor i read what i have typed


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## Robert Lee (May 17, 2006)

The best art it is so easy to say which art that is And it is ? really it is the art or blend of arts that best meets and produces a useable function to you for both performance And aspects of delivery.  The person Is the only representive of any art. And we all know in every art.  Some can do it some can not. In the end that art has no name because you are that art the one performing it. It is not performing you. Just a guide for the path you take.


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## terryl965 (May 17, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka thanks for the negative rep. for my question, here you go sir, I know what is best for me. I wanted input from others on this board and there reasoning behind it. Next time why don't you post a comment and then negitive rep. somebody oh yea that would mean to have to have an answer sorry.

Terry
PS to the other mods. I'm sorry as I post this and I relize I will get in trouble oh well.


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## MJS (May 17, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> complete Art for Self Defense and what are the main core to that particular Art?
> Terry


 
I'd have to say that it would ultimately come down to what the person was specifically looking for.  Ideally, I'd have to say that the most complete art would be the one that included all ranges of fighting as well as weapons.

Mike


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## Tony (May 18, 2006)

KUng fu deals with all kinds of ranges, kicks punches, locks, holds, knees elbows, clawing, gouging but I would find it usefull to cross train.


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## bobster_ice (May 18, 2006)

I would say Akido or Tai jutsu.


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## Robert Lee (May 18, 2006)

To put a name on the M/A art that is best is like a fools joke. As if 1 art could be called best then how come there is so many. Would not it make sence that every one would do that art. being a good or great fighter is a person not the art. Just some arts are better suited for producing better over all results for more people. Heck There are street fighters out there that never train in any M/A that could eat a lot of M/A people up in most any type of fight they fight. Why because they can fight they have the heart to try and hurt if they have to the average M/A fighter can whip say the average street fighter. THe good M/a fighter can perhaps whip a good street fighter But that person better have the heart to do what they need to do. So is there some secret art out there that has the truth that every one has tried to find. No  the truth shall be yours the art was just your guide. Take the name out of your art what is it now  its kung fu ,gung fu karate kenpo, kempo kali silat jutisu. Then take those givens away Its your way of doing what you do. Boxers box they call it boxing. Not 200 different names for it. Fighting is fighting its not pretty like in the class its hard and real If you look for a name of the best so called M/A then you have missed the most important aspect. Your self


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 19, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Old Fat Kenpoka thanks for the negative rep. for my question, here you go sir, I know what is best for me. I wanted input from others on this board and there reasoning behind it. Next time why don't you post a comment and then negitive rep. somebody oh yea that would mean to have to have an answer sorry.
> 
> Terry
> PS to the other mods. I'm sorry as I post this and I relize I will get in trouble oh well.


 
You are quite welcome.  I am sorry that you MartialTalk rep is so important to you that you are hurt by negative rep.  I see someone returned my favor to you.   

So you have asked your question and gotten recommendations for 9 different arts.  Have you learned anything more about those arts?  Have you learned anything more about self-defense?  Since you already know what is best for you, what are you really trying to accomplish with this thread?  

If you still want my answer, here it is.

There is no "complete" art.  And self-defense requirements vary from person-to-person, place-to-place, and time-to-time.  For instance, my self-defense requirements in my early 20's bar-hopping via bicycle in bad neighborhoods with way-too-much-free-time-to-spend-training is much different from my current mid-40's car-commuter/international-flyer office-guy quiet-neigborhood family-man little-spare-time requirement.  I wouldn't look for the most complete art, I would look for the best art for my circumstance.  For me, now, it is BJJ which addresses my weakest self-defense area.


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## Kreth (May 19, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> There is no "complete" art. And self-defense requirements vary from person-to-person, place-to-place, and time-to-time. For instance, my self-defense requirements in my early 20's bar-hopping via bicycle in bad neighborhoods with way-too-much-free-time-to-spend-training is much different from my current mid-40's car-commuter/international-flyer office-guy quiet-neigborhood family-man little-spare-time requirement. I wouldn't look for the most complete art, I would look for the best art for my circumstance. For me, now, it is BJJ which addresses my weakest self-defense area.


I must not be reading this right. Are you saying that BJJ is the best art for self-defense in the carpool lane/on a plane/at the watercooler? :uhyeah:


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## terryl965 (May 19, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> You are quite welcome. I am sorry that you MartialTalk rep is so important to you that you are hurt by negative rep. I see someone returned my favor to you.
> 
> So you have asked your question and gotten recommendations for 9 different arts. Have you learned anything more about those arts? Have you learned anything more about self-defense? Since you already know what is best for you, what are you really trying to accomplish with this thread?
> 
> ...


 
Here goes what am I trying to accomplished: hummm maybe polite talk over way people view there SD and maybe some real answer to why they have choosen that particular method over some other one.

And last but not least I don't care about the negitive reps. I get from people that do not responed to a question. My dignity is always in tact and question are the backbone to learning!!!!!!

Terry


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 19, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I must not be reading this right. Are you saying that BJJ is the best art for self-defense in the carpool lane/on a plane/at the watercooler? :uhyeah:


 
Ha, ha.   No. I am saying that after learning to shoot a gun, throw a knife, hit with a stick, and studying Kenpo, the biggest gap in my martial arts training is on the ground.    As far as self-defense goes, I stay away from trouble and don't "worry" about it.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 19, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Here goes what am I trying to accomplished: hummm maybe polite talk over way people view there SD and maybe some real answer to why they have choosen that particular method over some other one.
> 
> And last but not least I don't care about the negitive reps. I get from people that do not responed to a question. My dignity is always in tact and question are the backbone to learning!!!!!!
> 
> Terry


 
OK, peace.   There is no point in us fighting.

As far as self-defense training goes.  My opinion is very different from what it was 15 or 20 years ago.  Instead of spending your entire life trying to find or master a "complete" art that turns out to be incomplete.  I recommend people manage their MA career in multi-year chunks.  Pick SPORT oriented arts that maximize fitness and make you work a limited repertoire of techniques against a fully resisting oponent.  Don't waste your time with Shaolin-wannabe and Samurai-wannabe arts that focus on behavior control, meditation, and repetition of Katas and pre-set defense maneuvers against cooperative UKE's or imaginary invisible opponents.


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## terryl965 (May 19, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, peace. There is no point in us fighting.
> 
> As far as self-defense training goes. My opinion is very different from what it was 15 or 20 years ago. Instead of spending your entire life trying to find or master a "complete" art that turns out to be incomplete. I recommend people manage their MA career in multi-year chunks. Pick SPORT oriented arts that maximize fitness and make you work a limited repertoire of techniques against a fully resisting oponent. Don't waste your time with Shaolin-wannabe and Samurai-wannabe arts that focus on behavior control, meditation, and repetition of Katas and pre-set defense maneuvers against cooperative UKE's or imaginary invisible opponents.


 
I can certainly respect that, I too agree you cannot train like back 20 years ago time are changing on a daily basis. One must keep therespirit clear and there views open when it comes down to SD. 
Thank you for a great response.:asian:
Terry


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## CuongNhuka (May 20, 2006)

o.k. second time today i have seen this kind of question. *IT"S ANNONYING!!!!!!!* i'm thinking people have forgetten all about my 'I hate to have to do this, but..." thread. should post it? do i really need to?


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## green meanie (May 21, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> o.k. second time today i have seen this kind of question. *IT"S ANNONYING!!!!!!!* i'm thinking people have forgetten all about my 'I hate to have to do this, but..." thread. should post it? do i really need to?


 
Or.... you could just stay off the threads that annoy you. Just a thought.


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## terryl965 (May 21, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> o.k. second time today i have seen this kind of question. *IT"S ANNONYING!!!!!!!* i'm thinking people have forgetten all about my 'I hate to have to do this, but..." thread. should post it? do i really need to?


 
You should really see a doctor if a thread is getting to you, remember wax on wax off, breath danielson!!!
Terry


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## The MMA kid! (May 21, 2006)

and to think I thought that escaped the needless anger of message boards.


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## CuongNhuka (May 25, 2006)

it's not so much the thread as the question. is it truelly nessisary to ask 'so what is the best martial art', or 'which style is better?', and the like. it is a complete waste of time. and it says that one style is better then anouther, which is not true.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 10, 2006)

Perhaps a better way to ask the question might be this:

"What natural physical state and temperament have I been given, and what styles exist that play to those natural strengths in my particular case?"


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## still learning (Jun 12, 2006)

Hello, The art of fighting...more important is your physcial condition, and the amount of training time.

Will you or can you last long enough in a real street fight?  Will you be able to continune to out kick and punch the other person?  Will you be able to takedown/throw your attacker to the ground without be taken there first?

Can you actully defend and last in a real fighting sitution?  Physical condition and fit?

This is most important for any art of fighting.....can out last the attacter or out run the attacker?  Black belts does not have any meaning if you tire out quickly...cannot breath..out of breath...physcial give up....

The art of fighting should not be limited ...because real fights...anything goes..anything can happen...are you train for this? .....Aloha

PS: you can get lucky sometimes...


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## Hand Sword (Jun 12, 2006)

I would go with the Marine Corp's McMap program.


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## Grenadier (Jun 12, 2006)

There are many systems that would do just fine for self-defense, and they are too numerous to list in a single thread.  

Despite this, though, no one art will be "the most appropriate" for self-defense.  After all, people come in different shapes and sizes, abilities, etc.  To take a tall and lanky individual with a high center of gravity, and try to make him learn grappling styles for self-defense purposes, might very well be counterproductive.  While a particular grappling system may be an excellent choice for some people, for others, it's going to be as useless as (insert commonly used metaphor here).  

Instead, it's up to the individual to do some homework, and put on some elbow grease, as he figures out what is going to work best for him.  One man's food can be, after all, another man's poison.


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## tradrockrat (Jun 12, 2006)

The one that works for you.


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## mjdeslon (Jul 5, 2006)

That is a huge question. My answer is pretty simple. In my experience, its not the effectiveness of the "art" of the person, more as the "competence" of the individual in the art. Find a style that suits how you move/or want to move and train hard...


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## JBrainard (Jul 5, 2006)

People, this is pretty easy. Find out who the last winner of the UFC championship was, find his bio, and mimic his martial arts training. Hey, it worked in the ring


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 5, 2006)

Hmmm interesting question.

Seeing as I have a Black Belts in American Kenpo (3 versions), Ju Jitsu, Kung Fu and TKD which one of these will I say is the best for self-defense....hmmm...

The answer is....

none of them.

My vote goes to Vee Arnis Jitsu.  That system has the most practical and effective self defense I've ever seen.  And the teaching method makes thsoe skills useable to the beginner in a much shorter time than other arts.  For developing better movement, coordination, spirituality, self-discipline, character, etc. I'd recommend all the other arts.

For effective Self-Defense Now! Vee Arnis Jitsu.  Basically other arts are good at self defense as well but I feel that Vee Arnis Jitsu "gets to the point" a lot better and alot quicker for those whose interest is SOLELY self defense.

My two cents...and a nickel


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 5, 2006)

JBrainard said:
			
		

> People, this is pretty easy. Find out who the last winner of the UFC championship was, find his bio, and mimic his martial arts training. Hey, it worked in the ring


 
Priceless, I'm surprised no one had said this previous...and with seriousness.

here's another one.  If they sell a tape set on it, then it must be good...now go purchase Kimo's fierce fighting series. :flushed:


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