# Any long term negative effects of training?



## geezer (Oct 13, 2010)

Contrary to the popular belief that martial arts training in general is always healthful and great for your body, certain practices can have deleterious effects over time. One of my older Ving Tsun "nephews" in Texas was once a nationally ranked TKD champion. Thanks to the effects of his former dedication to that discipline he now trains VT on two artificial knees. VT/WT/WC by contrast is pretty easy on the body as the years go by, but as I move through my mid fifties, I'm beginning to wonder about the long term effects of certain aspects of my training. For example, I like hitting the wall bag. Mine is just filled with rice and beans, so it's not that hard, and it's a great way to let off steam. On the other hand, how good can it be for your knuckles to pound away thousands of times against a dense, coarse cotton bag? The same goes for working too hard against the dummy and so forth. In short, without being wimps, should we start modifying our training regimen when we get past a certain age?


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## girlbug2 (Oct 13, 2010)

Don't know how you chunners do it, but kravists usually wear nice padded gloves .

Yes I was in fact told recently (after 2 years of training the "wrong" way) that I'm not supposed to roundkick full force against the hanging heavy bag--it will damage my shins over the long term. So now I go easy on the heavy bag but full out on kick shields (much more resilient surface).


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## wtxs (Oct 13, 2010)

geezer said:


> Contrary to the popular belief that martial arts training in general is always healthful and great for your body, certain practices can have deleterious effects over time. One of my older Ving Tsun "nephews" in Texas was once a nationally ranked TKD champion. Thanks to the effects of his former dedication to that discipline he now trains VT on two artificial knees. VT/WT/WC by contrast is pretty easy on the body as the years go by, but as I move through my mid fifties, I'm beginning to wonder about the long term effects of certain aspects of my training. For example, I like hitting the wall bag. Mine is just filled with rice and beans, so it's not that hard, and it's a great way to let off steam. On the other hand, how good can it be for your knuckles to pound away thousands of times against a dense, coarse cotton bag? The same goes for working too hard against the dummy and so forth. *In short, without being wimps, should we start modifying our training regimen when we get past a certain age?*



Fooorgeet about it, one more round of beer and then another round on the dummy.:cheers:


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 13, 2010)

As we get older we just have to get better at taking care of our bodies.  As martial artists we should be a bit more in tune with our bodies than the average joe, and we have to listen to them.  My father is a few months shy of 50.  When he shows up to help out with class, he does cartwheels during breaks.  He has the cardio health of someone half his age.  He listened when he body said he was carrying too much weight (muscle mass weight) and slimmed down some.  It's all about paying attention to your body and working to prevent problems through exercise, maintaining flexibility and proper diet.  Look at Jhoon Rhee







He's 79 and trains every day.  He breaks boards every day.  We don't have to do much, if any, modifications to our training if we simply listen to and take care of our bodies.


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## mograph (Oct 14, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> We don't have to do much, if any, modifications to our training if we simply listen to and take care of our bodies.


... or maybe we'd be making constant, small modifications to our training as we listen to our bodies ...?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> Contrary to the popular belief that martial arts training in general is always healthful and great for your body, certain practices can have deleterious effects over time. One of my older Ving Tsun "nephews" in Texas was once a nationally ranked TKD champion. Thanks to the effects of his former dedication to that discipline he now trains VT on two artificial knees. VT/WT/WC by contrast is pretty easy on the body as the years go by, but as I move through my mid fifties, I'm beginning to wonder about the long term effects of certain aspects of my training. For example, I like hitting the wall bag. Mine is just filled with rice and beans, so it's not that hard, and it's a great way to let off steam. On the other hand, how good can it be for your knuckles to pound away thousands of times against a dense, coarse cotton bag? The same goes for working too hard against the dummy and so forth. In short, without being wimps, should we start modifying our training regimen when we get past a certain age?


 
As my 70 something Taiji sifu that is smaller than me, healthier than me, and can still throw me around like a rag doll says&#8230;. Balance.

Do not over train any one aspect of your chosen style and you will be fine.

He told a story once of a guy in Hong Kong that knew his sifu (my Sigung). The guy would stop by to talk with his sifu (my Sigung) from time to time and the guy was just loaded with arthritis and could hardly move. My sifu asked his sifu (my Sigung) about him and he found out that that guy was a very good and very strong martial artist in his youth. When he asked his sifu (my Sigung) pretty much what you are asking about, his sifu (my Sigung) also said balance was the problem. My Sigung&#8217;s friend had over trained the hard (external) aspects and neglected the soft (internal) aspects and it left him rather unhealthy in his old age.

Hitting the wall bag is great training but balance that with the internal side and you should be fine.

Besides, do you know how old Ip Man got and how old hos sons are

Ip Man = died at 79
Ip Chun = 86 and still training
Ip Ching = 74 and still training

balance


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Besides, do you know how old Ip Man got and how old hos sons are
> 
> Ip Man = died at 79
> Ip Chun = 86 and still training
> ...


 
That's OK I guess, but my great grandmother lived to be 101, my grandmother 102, my grandfather just shy of 98, the rest made it to about 90. My parents are 84 and 85 respectively, and at 85 my dad still skis black diamond trails with style. On the other hand, I'm already dealing with the effects of injuries from my "active" youth. I don't want to end up living similarly long but as an _arthritic cripple!_


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> That's OK I guess, but my great grandmother lived to be 101, my grandmother 102, my grandfather just shy of 98, the rest made it to about 90. My parents are 84 and 85 respectively, and at 85 my dad still skis black diamond trails with style. On the other hand, I'm already dealing with the effects of injuries from my "active" youth. I don't want to end up living similarly long but as an arthritic cripple!


 
My great grandmother lived to 98, in the country by herself and was still shooting a shotgun, my grandmother lived to 96 and my father is 78 has Parkinson&#8217;s and is in a nursing home. But other than the Parkinson&#8217;s he has not one other health problems and 2 years ago he was skiing and playing golf.

My Mother is 78 with Spinal stenosis, her older brother is 82 and also has Spinal stenosis, their oldest brother died at 68 after 2 heart attacks from an aneurism my grandfather and grandmother died at 76.., 2 or 3 years apart do to heart problems. But so far neither my mother nor her older brother has any heart problems at all

I have arthritis in my hips, a Mitral valve prolapsed, a messed up knee a bad back and various other aches, pains and issues but I still train&#8230; I don&#8217;t hit trees as much as I would like but I still train that way and I do my Taiji and my Qigong and I have found that a little additional exercise helps too. If I stop, I will have problems, I have proven that in the past year due to being forced to stop. Hey we get old that is part of life and, IMO, it is by far better to get old than the realistic alternative.

And you missed the whole first part of my post if you just focused on the IP family ages (Ip Man died of throat cancer by the way). Balance, stop doing so much hard, external, training and do more internal training. Don't stop it... just balance it and see your doctor once and awhile if you don&#8217;t already. That was another part of the conversation with my sifu when we were talking about some of these Taiji guys that died young (see Yang Chengfu) he realized during the conversation that many of them did not believe they needed anything but their martial arts to keep them healthy and did not go to doctors.


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## yak sao (Oct 14, 2010)

I think it was George Burns who said, when asked about his longevity:
"If I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself" 

I've been practicing CMA for a little over 29 years now. I would love to go back and undo the "unbalanced" training I did for the first 14 years. I was 18 when I started and I thought I was invincible. 
I had a hip injury that would not go away in my early 30's. Looking back, it's the best thing that could have happened to me because it steered me into WT.
I stopped practicing the other style of kung fu and devoted my time exclusively to WT and over time my hip injury went away.

I have adjusted my training over time. I still do everything I used to do, but now I take a more moderate approach. I used to spar (lat sao) every one of my students until they were exausted, one after the other. Now, I still lat sao, but I don't have to prove myself anymore.
I practice the forms a lot (the 3 hand sets, dummy and long pole).....still waiting on the knives.......... and practice a lot of chi sao. I also throw in some tai chi on occasion.
I'm no longer under an "organization" so I am no longer chasing the carrot.
I practice because it's what I do..

I'm just staying on the move....if I quit, i'm afraid i'll rust up.


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## matsu (Oct 15, 2010)

*I'm just staying on the move....if I quit, i'm afraid i'll rust up. *

thats how ill be planning my life ahead.... even if i go on holiday for a fortnight i start to seize up, and thats with gym and practice sessions built into the holiday.
my nan was convinced her arthiritis would have crippled her hands if she stopped knitting and needlepoint etc but she kept going and she kept moving.

i have lots of hip/low back injuries from heavy bodybuilding and high impact karate kicking so i have to be careful in certain things i do but i am convinced that man was born to continually move around and as such ill be practicing circle steps in my coffin if i get my way.
matsu


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## Stac3y (Oct 15, 2010)

Um....maybe divorce? :uhyeah:


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## mook jong man (Oct 15, 2010)

geezer said:


> Contrary to the popular belief that martial arts training in general is always healthful and great for your body, certain practices can have deleterious effects over time. One of my older Ving Tsun "nephews" in Texas was once a nationally ranked TKD champion. Thanks to the effects of his former dedication to that discipline he now trains VT on two artificial knees. VT/WT/WC by contrast is pretty easy on the body as the years go by, but as I move through my mid fifties, I'm beginning to wonder about the long term effects of certain aspects of my training. For example, I like hitting the wall bag. Mine is just filled with rice and beans, so it's not that hard, and it's a great way to let off steam. On the other hand, how good can it be for your knuckles to pound away thousands of times against a dense, coarse cotton bag? The same goes for working too hard against the dummy and so forth. In short, without being wimps, should we start modifying our training regimen when we get past a certain age?


 
I don't reckon the wall bag will hurt you , not unless you do elbow strikes on it , which can apparently can shake the brain stem .
When people get older they start to shrink and get bent over from loss of calcium in the bones leading to osteoporosis.

The repeated impacts on a wall bag or dummy would probably help to stress the skeletal system and keep the bones dense and strong in my opinion.

Practice of Sil Lum Tao form should also help to keep the joints and tendons etc in good health as well.


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## mograph (Oct 16, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> The repeated impacts on a wall bag or dummy would probably help to stress the skeletal system and keep the bones dense and strong in my opinion.


It's true that bones do grow extra material inside, in response to extra load. 

http://www.naturalnews.com/010528.html 
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...chanical-stress-promotes-new-bone-growth.aspx

Any engineer will tell you that there's a difference between impact loading and static loading, where impact loading is of momentary duration. Studies seem to have shown that impact loading is beneficial to bone growth, at least in adolescents, but it's not clear (to me) what the effects would be on older test subjects. Looking for studies ...


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## Vajramusti (Oct 16, 2010)

I tap the wall bag and the iron palm bag in a focused aligned  way without using muscular force and my knees in ygkym are not in unnaturally downward avoiding stress... I punch in one fluid motion rather than cycling/pedaling my punches.My punch and hands work fine..better than ever.
No arthritis in my knuckles, hands, fingers, shoulders or elbows. A touch of arthritis in one knee not from wing chun but from  a major fall during a multiple dog fight some years ago- my knee landed with all my weight directkly on concrete and I kept on walking my dogs till they went to dog heaven. I didn't rest or treat my knee injury- stupidity.I gradually healed the the  knee with yoga, aquarobics and stretching and strengthening and some glucocsamine/chondroitin. I regained both stability and mobility for self defense and martial work.
I don't do TKD kicks or MT kicks..I do wc kicks-properly with proper alignment.
Doing wing chun "naturally" since  1976- everyday-has suited me just fine.
I am 77 years old-enough basis for real experience on this subject.
I advise against hard iron palm or  hard wall bag work.But mileage can vary with people.
Hard karate like Oyama can get you arthritis in your hands. Hard muscle based leg work or wrong stances can give you knee trouble- I have avoided them.The stupidity with the dogs was the sole exception.I learn from my mistakes.

joy chaudhuri


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## geezer (Oct 16, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> I tap the wall bag and the iron palm bag in a focused aligned  way without using muscular force and my knees in ygkym are not in unnaturally downward avoiding stress... I punch in one fluid motion rather than cycling/pedaling my punches. My punch and hands work fine..better than ever...
> 
> ...Doing wing chun "naturally" since  1976- everyday-has suited me just fine.
> I am 77 years old-enough basis for real experience on this subject.
> ...



I was kind of hoping you'd weigh in on this topic, Joy. A couple of questions. First, could you clarify what you mean by punching "with a fluid motion" as compared to "cycling/pedaling"? 

Also, do you use dit dar jow when hitting the wall bags or iron palm bag? I know I bought some from your sifu back in the early 80's and it seemed helpful.


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## yak sao (Oct 16, 2010)

geezer said:


> I was kind of hoping you'd weigh in on this topic, Joy. A couple of questions. First, could you clarify what you mean by punching "with a fluid motion" as compared to "cycling/pedaling"?
> 
> Also, do you use dit dar jow when hitting the wall bags or iron palm bag? I know I bought some from your sifu back in the early 80's and it seemed helpful.


 

I mentioned in another post that I own a couple of horses. Something I discovered that works real well on aching joints is horse linament and begle oil (also seen it spelled beagle)
Go easy on it though till you know for sure it won't burn you....I slather it on pretty thick with no problems..,,,


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## Vajramusti (Oct 17, 2010)

Hi Steve-regarding one fluid motion in punchin the bag,--what I try to do:
1.I do NOT clench my fist extra tight. 2. The returning hand is as important as the punching hand.3 I do not "lift" my hand and then cycle in with a punch.
3. The path from the sunk elbow to the center of the bag is one clear/clean upward trajectory and  line.4. I do not tilt my fist upward consciously...the fist elbow and shoulder point are aligned.5. I land square with my fist.5. I dont tense my shoulders, biceps, triceps ot forearms 6.I dont push my punch- just command the elbow to go straight to the target. 7. I use the wall bag for focus and joint alignment. The bag has no built in power- for the latter there is air punching,
bot jam do, kwan and foot work. 8. I rub dit da jow before and after punching.

Sifu Fong no longer sells jow though he knows much about jows and herbs. 
I have a little bit of his jow left. But I made my jow a long time ago . I also use a very good jow that I got from a very good and accomplished  jook lum southern mantis friend of mine- unfortunately and apparently and reportedly now deceased.He knew his jows and had them tailor made to his specifications by a herbalist in LA Chinatown.
I cherish the stock of the jow now left- since it is irreplaceable.
One is a general iron palm application jow and the other is a "bone" jow for deeper injuries.

I have heard of arthritis development from hard hitting on the wall bag in kung fu and makiwara in Oyama karate and even "Hand trembling". I have no such problem- ditto for sifu Fong and sigung Ho.
Just sharing since you asked,
Best, joy chaudhuri


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## gareththomasnz (Oct 19, 2010)

Well you guys are great for training at advanced age.

Balance requires that you adjust your training. To your age, time commitments, physique, injury, recuperation etc.

Advanced martial arts should focus more on internal as external skills have been mastered already. 

So the training adjusts with age to more internal methods.

Do you agree with this ?


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## seasoned (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm joining this thread late, which only makes me that much older. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I do agree with you, from my perspective, pertaining to my art. Conceptually Okinawan GoJu is a hard/soft system. The system, in the beginning stages, is learned externally, and as we progress, the internal is recognized. The idea is, that it is much easier to go from hard to soft, then to go from a soft system to a hard external one. This concept makes total sense, because as we age, we lose muscle mass, so internal, makes it an art, for a lifetime. To address the OP, if you train properly the negative effects are minimal, if not, you end up like must of us. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  :asian:


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## seasoned (Oct 19, 2010)

gareththomasnz said:


> Well you guys are great for training at advanced age.
> 
> Balance requires that you adjust your training. To your age, time commitments, physique, injury, recuperation etc.
> 
> ...


It took you 3 months to post your first time????


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## sgerhardt45 (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Geezer,

Are you using any dit da medicine after your bag work? Or perhaps taking something like zhen gui shen to offset the damage?

I agree with what was said about balance earlier in the thread, when you tear yourself down you need to make sure you do enough to build it back up. 

Best,
Steve


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## geezer (Oct 20, 2010)

sgerhardt45 said:


> Hey Geezer,
> 
> Are you using any dit da medicine after your bag work? Or perhaps taking something like zhen gui shen to offset the damage?
> 
> ...



Thanks. Actually, I think using dit dat jow is probably a bunch of hokum. Still I _do_ use it, rubbing it vigorously on my knuckles, or whatever area of my hands or arms I am stressing before and after working out on the wallbag or dummy. This is one practice I learned and retained from my first, brief exposure to WC (in the same system Vajramusti trains) before ending up in a different branch, also of Yip Man lineage. So far I've never used "zhen gui" or "bone-break medicine". Do you have personal experience with this remedy?


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## sgerhardt45 (Oct 21, 2010)

Geezer,

I've used both zhen gui shen and "The Great Mender" style teapills in the past. Usually take a pretty small dose (2 pills/day vs recommended 8 for when you have injury.) In normal training it didn't do too much, but seemed to make a reasonable difference when doing more serious iron palm style training.

One of my sihing got to the point of doing iron palm against rocks and steel shot and he recommended taking a full dose when you got to that stage just because damage was inevitable.

Best,
~Steve


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