# Faste Punches/Training Question



## ilhe4e12345 (Jul 1, 2011)

Hello everyone i just had a few questions regarding what you all do for Wing Chun training? I recently just started the first form Siu Nin Tao. I did the first half of the form, and this coming weekend ill be learning the last half. I have been practicing it daily, atleast 15 minutes a day just so i can get use to the smooth movements and study them. 

I have also learned the basic's of the style including the straight punch, chop, blocks, kicks, center line theory, attack and block simultaneously. 

Im currently taking a break from my 7 Star Mantis training due to a lower back injury so my Shifu is teaching me Wing Chun during my recovery process, doctor doesnt want me to be doing to many high kicks or things along that nature until its healed up, and thanks to Donnie Yen and the IP Man movies i really want to learn WC (i know its a movie, but it has always interested me, the movie just kind of threw me into it  ) 


Anyways....I really wanted to talk to you guys here and find out how you all practice? Have any helpful advice you can give me for my training? Whats a good way to train yourself to throw a faster straight punch? I have access to a wooden dummy, so i have been really target hitting on that so my strikes are accurate but i would really like a good way of training myself to throw faster punches. I heard that throwing slow punches with weights in hand can be useful (nothing big, like 5-10lb weights) but im not sure if thats something i should do or not.

Any help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## yak sao (Jul 1, 2011)

It is more important to train for relaxation and smoothness, than for speed. Speed comes from relaxation. If you train for speed, then your movements are stiff and jerky. Not only that, but by practicing fast, you are unable to pick up on flaws in your technique as easily. And as you continue to practice this incorrect movement, you are developing muscle memory that makes it harder to unlearn. 
But don&#8217;t mistake going slow for relaxation. You can be slow in your movements but still be very stiff and forceful. By the same token, don&#8217;t try to be soft. If you try to be soft too soon in your training, then you&#8217;re not soft, but weak. Then to compensate for that weakness, you stiffen up, and a vicious cycle is created. 
The solution is to train for smoothness and relaxation as you train slowly. This helps you to focus on the antagonist muscles that hinder speed, and relax them while at the same time using just enough force in your protagonist muscles. A good example of this is turning &#8220;off&#8221; the biceps and engaging the triceps when punching. If the biceps stay engaged while you punch, it&#8217;s as if you are stepping on the gas and brake at the same time. 
A good exercise to demonstrate this to beginners is to have them place their arm on your shoulder with the thumb pointing up, the elbow pointing toward the floor. Then place both your arms on top of their elbow joint and tell them not to allow you to bend their arm. After a couple of failed attempts, have them do the same thing, only this time have them reach for the wall in front of them. They will be amazed at how you are now unable to bend their arm. The reason being, is the first time they are tensing all the muscles in the arm, antagonist (biceps) and protagonist (triceps), and they cancel each other out, so the arm is bent fairly easily. The second time they are disengaging the biceps in an effort to reach out for the wall in front of them. This allows the triceps to do their job without fighting against the biceps, making the arm all but unbendable.
By training for smoothness and proper relaxation, you develop a natural, relaxed speed that stays with you into old age. If you train for speed, as you get older, your speed diminishes. Remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. What is the best way for the WT student to develop this smooth relaxation? The blueprint has already been given to us. We simply need to follow it: Siu Nim Tao.


----------



## ilhe4e12345 (Jul 1, 2011)

yak sao said:


> It is more important to train for relaxation and smoothness, than for speed. Speed comes from relaxation. If you train for speed, then your movements are stiff and jerky. Not only that, but by practicing fast, you are unable to pick up on flaws in your technique as easily. And as you continue to practice this incorrect movement, you are developing muscle memory that makes it harder to unlearn.
> But dont mistake going slow for relaxation. You can be slow in your movements but still be very stiff and forceful. By the same token, dont try to be soft. If you try to be soft too soon in your training, then youre not soft, but weak. Then to compensate for that weakness, you stiffen up, and a vicious cycle is created.
> The solution is to train for smoothness and relaxation as you train slowly. This helps you to focus on the antagonist muscles that hinder speed, and relax them while at the same time using just enough force in your protagonist muscles. A good example of this is turning off the biceps and engaging the triceps when punching. If the biceps stay engaged while you punch, its as if you are stepping on the gas and brake at the same time.
> A good exercise to demonstrate this to beginners is to have them place their arm on your shoulder with the thumb pointing up, the elbow pointing toward the floor. Then place both your arms on top of their elbow joint and tell them not to allow you to bend their arm. After a couple of failed attempts, have them do the same thing, only this time have them reach for the wall in front of them. They will be amazed at how you are now unable to bend their arm. The reason being, is the first time they are tensing all the muscles in the arm, antagonist (biceps) and protagonist (triceps), and they cancel each other out, so the arm is bent fairly easily. The second time they are disengaging the biceps in an effort to reach out for the wall in front of them. This allows the triceps to do their job without fighting against the biceps, making the arm all but unbendable.
> By training for smoothness and proper relaxation, you develop a natural, relaxed speed that stays with you into old age. If you train for speed, as you get older, your speed diminishes. Remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. What is the best way for the WT student to develop this smooth relaxation? The blueprint has already been given to us. We simply need to follow it: Siu Nim Tao.


 

that is amazing information...thank you. i know that relaxtion is the key, i was just asking to see if there is any good training tips . Im really excited about WC, and i look forward to learning more.


----------



## WC_lun (Jul 1, 2011)

Yak Sao has great advice.  I'd also chime in that position is much more important than speed.  So learn that part very well.  If you are in a superior position, where you can apply your force in a manner that negates your opponent's force, speed will not be the issue. I find a lot of young guys want to be faster, stronger, and quicker, but then they consistantly get in very bad positions against the more experienced, less physically gifted practitioners.  Why?  it is something to thing about   Being really fast isn't a bad thing.  It just isn't the best thing.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 1, 2011)

You have to practice Chi sau 
Chi Sau training increases hand speed.


----------



## Asmo (Jul 1, 2011)

This is not strictly WC, but I was told of this principle:




> In the Zimen system, there is a principle "&#20081;&#25277;&#40635;(Luan Chou Ma) - pull  thread heads off your opponent's shirt" that can be integrated into your  WC chain punches very well. Instead of thinking about striking out, you  think about pulling your striking hands back as fast as you can  instead. This will increase your chain punches speed big time.



Taken from:
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1098874#post1098874


----------



## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 1, 2011)

Hmm Regarding your quote fromkung fu magazine , Asmo , bruce lee said something similar about kicking , while he was training with the dude with the afro for his movie enter the dragon ,  Well he was talking about side kicks but i think this rule applies to every strike , and i've tried this myself with the side kick and it definately speeds it up , they look lightning fast.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 2, 2011)

Asmo said:


> This is not strictly WC, but I was told of this principle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have to say I don't really like that idea Asmo and I will explain why.
Thinking in terms of pulling your arm back is a contracting movement , you should always be thinking  of a constant flow of forward force from your elbows and expanding the angle of your arms even if your arm is physically moving back.
It is much better to accelerate your punch forward , then let it relax and come back of it's own accord.

But if you want a specific exercise to increase hand speed besides Chi Sau then a rather good one is to practice chain punching by opening your hand completely after each punch is completed.

So you punch then relax and open the hand as it's coming back and then the other arm comes through and does the same.
Keep doing this and gradually go faster and faster making sure to keep opening the hands right up on the return phase , the object is to punch as fast as you can while still opening the hands up after each punch.

This exercise does increase punching speed dramatically , after a while of practicing this you should find your normal punching will be a lot faster and a lot more relaxed.


----------



## yak sao (Jul 2, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I have to say I don't really like that idea Asmo and I will explain why.
> *Thinking in terms of pulling your arm back is a contracting movement , you should always be thinking of a constant flow of forward force from your elbows and expanding the angle of your arms even if your arm is physically moving back.*
> *It is much better to accelerate your punch forward , then let it relax and come back of it's own accord.*
> 
> ...


 

I'm in total agreement with this. Referring back to my previous post, the triceps are constantly engaged, the biceps relaxed.
When you punch, the triceps contract, but as Mook said, don't pull the hand back, relax the triceps BUT don't totally relax them. Think of a light switch. Instead of clicking the triceps on and off, they are hooked to a dimmer swich and go up and down accordingly, or another analogy is a spring being compressed and released.

Same with kicking. In our lineage, every step is a kick, every kick is a step. Once our kick has gone out, whether it's made contact or not, we don't give up that space by pulling the leg back, we use it as a step to go forward.

BTW, I like the speed drill you mentioned, I'm going to add that into my training.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 2, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I'm in total agreement with this. Referring back to my previous post, the triceps are constantly engaged, the biceps relaxed.
> When you punch, the triceps contract, but as Mook said, don't pull the hand back, relax the triceps BUT don't totally relax them. Think of a light switch. Instead of clicking the triceps on and off, they are hooked to a dimmer swich and go up and down accordingly, or another analogy is a spring being compressed and released.
> 
> Same with kicking. In our lineage, every step is a kick, every kick is a step. Once our kick has gone out, whether it's made contact or not, we don't give up that space by pulling the leg back, we use it as a step to go forward.
> ...



It's just logical is it not , why would you have one mindset of always thinking forward in Chi Sau and then when you are punching have a different mindset , it just doesn't make sense.
If your thinking of contracting your biceps on the retraction phase and an opposing strike comes in, then basically you are just helping him to collapse your angle and hit you.

With the kicking I am in fierce agreement with you , not only are you using the kick to bridge the gap and protect you as you transition into punching range , but by moving forward you are maximizing your force by transferring your body mass into whatever particular kick you happen to be using at the time.


----------



## tenzen (Jul 2, 2011)

Another thing to add, using weights in your punch training is not ideal. First off it causes you to be tense and that's kind of counter productive here. Also when you extend the punch it puts a lot of stress on the shoulders not to mention it pushes the fist towards the ground, over time this can decrease the accuracy of your strikes.
There is an alternative though in the form of low weight resistance bands. Wrap the band around a post of some sort holding an end in each hand and work your punches. You will want the band to be right at the level of the bottom of your shoulder blades so there is not an angling problem, then when your punching explode taking care to follow correct form. When I do this I punch in groups of 3 then 5 then 7 and then 9. Repeat.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 2, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Another thing to add, using weights in your punch training is not ideal. First off it causes you to be tense and that's kind of counter productive here. Also when you extend the punch it puts a lot of stress on the shoulders not to mention it pushes the fist towards the ground, over time this can decrease the accuracy of your strikes.
> There is an alternative though in the form of low weight resistance bands. Wrap the band around a post of some sort holding an end in each hand and work your punches. You will want the band to be right at the level of the bottom of your shoulder blades so there is not an angling problem, then when your punching explode taking care to follow correct form. When I do this I punch in groups of 3 then 5 then 7 and then 9. Repeat.



Yeah the weights in the hand thing bad idea for all the reasons you mentioned , plus I reckon it wouldn't be doing the elbow joints a world of good either .

It might even alter your structure slightly by giving you an artificial sense of your weight being too far forward having an object in your hand that far out from your body .

I imagine the back muscles and a fair few other muscle groups would tense up in order to try and compensate.

The resistance bands are a good idea , more in line with being an isometric exercise like Chi sau.
I have done this before , but being a cheap bastard I used an old bicycle tube and looped it around my back and punched like that , it worked great .

You can even anchor it to a post and tie the other end around your ankle and work your kicks , means you can do full power kicks in the air without screwing your knee cartilage up in the process.


----------



## rogersouthbay (Jul 2, 2011)

yak sao said:


> The second time they are disengaging the biceps in an effort to reach out for the wall in front of them. This allows the triceps to do their job without fighting against the biceps, making the arm all but unbendable.



I find Yak sao's explanation very helpful.  I've always been fascinated by many fundamentals shared between Aikido and Wing Chun, but never imagined the concept of "unbendable arm" in Aikido is also found in Wing Chun.  

Yak sao, *so when training punches or pak sau, *do you recommend we apply this same idea and try to (imagine) reach out for the wall behind my partner?  That way, again we are utilizing the triceps and help train punches with more relaxed arms.  Did I understand correctly?


----------



## tenzen (Jul 2, 2011)

Your absolutely right mook it will have ill effects on your structure. Also kicking with the bands or an inner tube have some great benefits, not only can you kick at full force but the pull to the rear of you forces you to work the balance as well. Wrapping the band around your waist can help your forward movement, it helps with exploding in. 
In another thread it was mentioned aboutkicking and keeping that forward motion to close the gap into punching range, wrap up your hands feet and waist with bands or inner tubes and do this same thing, you will be able to get in a lot quicker and have more force behind what you are doing. The thing is to remember to stay relaxed the whole time because if done wrong this can also disruptthe integrity of your structure.


----------



## yak sao (Jul 2, 2011)

rogersouthbay said:


> I find Yak sao's explanation very helpful. I've always been fascinated by many fundamentals shared between Aikido and Wing Chun, but never imagined the concept of "unbendable arm" in Aikido is also found in Wing Chun.
> 
> Yak sao, *so when training punches or pak sau, *do you recommend we apply this same idea and try to (imagine) reach out for the wall behind my partner? That way, again we are utilizing the triceps and help train punches with more relaxed arms. Did I understand correctly?


 
Hmmm, never thought about reaching for the wall when actually making contact, I simply use that as a way to demonstrate the effectiveness of using the muscles properly.
Like every other MA, I simply think of striking through the target.

When applying punches against a live opponent, the arm never straightens. You are constantly stepping into your opponent.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 3, 2011)

In anything Wing Chun , you want to be mentally projecting your force straight through the opponents centreline and beyond.

This development of mental focus is a major part of the Sil Lum Tao form .
One interesting experiment that you can do is get into your stance and put your guard up and get your partner to grab your wrist and  try and pull you forward and off to the side.

Sometimes use your mind to focus through his centreline and other times think of something totally unrelated .

I guarantee that when you are mentally focusing at his centreline thats where you will go to even if he is pulling you to the side , but when your concentration lapses and you are thinking of something else most times you will be easily dragged off to the side.


----------



## hpclub1000 (Jul 4, 2011)

Hi

I have to say that one of the methods which has had a great improvement on the speed and relaxation of my punches is training with the Long Pole.


----------



## Domino (Jul 5, 2011)

The 2 things I was going to say have been mentioned, long pole and concentrating on pull back, after what Mook Jong said I am going to try that !!


----------



## bully (Jul 5, 2011)

hpclub1000 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have to say that one of the methods which has had a great improvement on the speed and relaxation of my punches is training with the Long Pole.



Care to elaborate on Long Pole training? Its just I have one (I will have tomorrow) and wouldnt mind some drills to do on it.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 5, 2011)

bully said:


> Care to elaborate on Long Pole training? Its just I have one (I will have tomorrow) and wouldnt mind some drills to do on it.



Get in your stance and practice keeping the pole perfectly horizontal as you raise and lower it , also make sure it travels in a straight vertical line from top to bottom.

Another one is to practice raising and lowering the tip of the pole from low to high and back again in a perfectly straight vertical line , pushing down with the back hand and pulling up with the front and vice versa.


----------



## bully (Jul 6, 2011)

Cheers MJM, will start with these. Something different for me to do, always good to have something else in the mix.

Get my dummy back today too!!

They were in storage during my travels and just got in today to get them. Hope to do some light training as under the weather at the mo.


----------



## hpclub1000 (Jul 7, 2011)

bully said:


> Care to elaborate on Long Pole training? Its just I have one (I will have tomorrow) and wouldnt mind some drills to do on it.



Exactly as Mook Yank Jong has stated. Try and transmit energy down the pole so it vibrates at the end.  Also just doing the basic thursting technique with the pole can help.  remember to do it both sides though.


----------

