# Ninjutsu Political Issues



## Bujingodai (Nov 18, 2004)

Dan, I'll discuss it. I have very little politics in the indies, other than an arguement here and there online. However, I don't claim what some of the others claim, so I am a moderate. Don't consider myself, and I am not the head of the school... to be anything new. Just an angle.
When I was with the Kan, in my area there was so much backstabbing and bad opinions of everyone. Inner dojo stuff, inter dojo stuff. I saw a lack of any continium if thats what I could call it between the dojos too. I didn't like the QA, it was my issue with it. I have no problem with the Bujinkan. I hold rank, am not qualified to teach it and don't advert that I do. Though would I say it influences what I do. Of course it does.
In honesty I have found more brotherhood in the independent schools, that I did in the Kan. At least in my experience.
Some of the schools that get slammed are pretty good, full of good dedicated supportive people who I will always back up. Some of them,...are wackjobs. Goes with the turf I guess.


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## heretic888 (Nov 18, 2004)

I think you'll find, Dan, that the political phenomena you speak of is pretty standard for organizations of any kind (martial arts or not) once they reach a certain size.

Or, more to the point, once the teacher/disciple ratio reaches a certain number ---- then weirdness can happen. It happens in kans, and it happens in colleges, too. I think it is a direct reflection of the level of intimacy that the individual student has with his teacher.

I think the best contemporary examples of this would be organized religion. The bigger they are, the greater the teacher/disciple ratio, the more likely you'll get "indie" break-offs --- some of which are quite good, and some of which are full of wackos.

My thoughts, anyway. Laterz.  :asian:


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## DWeidman (Nov 19, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Dan, I'll discuss it. I have very little politics in the indies, other than an arguement here and there online. However, I don't claim what some of the others claim, so I am a moderate. Don't consider myself, and I am not the head of the school... to be anything new. Just an angle.


And this is the crux of the issue...



			
				Bujingodai said:
			
		

> When I was with the Kan, in my area there was so much backstabbing and bad opinions of everyone. Inner dojo stuff, inter dojo stuff. I saw a lack of any continium if thats what I could call it between the dojos too. I didn't like the QA, it was my issue with it. I have no problem with the Bujinkan. I hold rank, am not qualified to teach it and don't advert that I do. Though would I say it influences what I do. Of course it does.


Look - I am not about to defend the Buj and its sewing-circle gossip and politics. If I got tired of training in it, however, and decided to step out on my own - I would call it Daniel-den. I don't have menkyo to teach any branch of Ninjutsu specifically - so using the term in my school name would be dishonest.

It is human nature to want to be special - to be unique and better than everyone else. From my vantage point, that is exactly what happens when people leave an organization for another one. They have to add things like, "Training sucked" - "too many politics" - "not modern enough"... and the new school (of course) has NONE of those problems.

Whether the school is a whack-job school or a great school comes down to the guy who left to start the new school and his resume / natural abilities. The only people who I give a pass to in this area are people who spend decades training - then try their own thing. Manaka Sensei, SKH (to a certain extent) -- they have the background and resume to back up their claims. It appears to me that the vast majority of the "indie" crowd didn't reach judan or spend 20+ years training in the organization before they got huffy and left. Which means they probably didn't have a great grasp of original art (ie. the subtly and nuances, deep understanding of strategy / space, shape, openings, distance) which means that their "new" art is missing all of that...

Anyway - in the end it doesn't really matter... (although it is misleading to use a term you probably have no business using (this is even more true for the RTMS and Bussey guys).)

-Daniel


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## DWeidman (Nov 19, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I think you'll find, Dan, that the political phenomena you speak of is pretty standard for organizations of any kind (martial arts or not) once they reach a certain size.


And this is exacerbated when the organization produces Alpha Males...

-Daniel


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## Bujingodai (Nov 19, 2004)

Fair enough, I understand what you are saying.Thank you.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 22, 2004)

I for one am interested in what it was you did that let politics interfere with and disrupt your own training?


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## Bujingodai (Nov 22, 2004)

Well certainly assuming that is was something that I did, I am not really all that interested in discussing it with you. Do I owe you an explaination? 
I actually had little to do with the whole scheme of it, more just what I saw going on around me.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 22, 2004)

You mean, like the restriction against training with Manaka and Tanemura? If that is the case, I still don't see how that can affect the training itself.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 22, 2004)

No, that had nothing to do with it. I only found out about a Genbukan school in my town....about 2 yrs after the fact and have still never gone there. Also no Jinenkan (sp) in that area either.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 22, 2004)

All right, well then I honestly don't know of any type of politics that could get in the way of someone's training. No disrespect intended. Sure, I get pissed every now and then when, for instance, I'm at a seminar and wind up getting paired with a nameless, grumpy yudansha who is more interested in being snobbish and complain about everyone's general inability to do kuzushi than to give helpful corrections. But I'd be damned if I let jerks like him get in the way of my own training.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 22, 2004)

I respect your feelings in the matter. I guess you would have to have been there. Now in retrospect, that was some years ago and maybe I am now a much more mature person. Maybe I would have dealt with it differently, hindsight is 5050. Done though.


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## Jeff Boler (Nov 23, 2004)

Out of morbid curiosity, is there a specific reason as to why the independent's call their systems "Ninjutsu?"  Is it simply for the advertising value alone?  I think in Dave's situation, it probably makes since, because he has a legitimate history in an authentic art.  In that situation, I can see it.  However, most independent schools of Ninjutsu are made up of people with no experience in the art whatsoever.

If the previous experience is there, I have no problem with someone creating their own Ninjutsu art.  However, if you have a black belt in Hapkido and then call your system Ninjutsu, I have a problem.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 23, 2004)

You can be the most skilled practitioner of bodily techniques in the world, that does not automatically qualify you to teach ninjutsu any more than it qualifies you to teach physics.


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## Limeydog (Nov 23, 2004)

There is more to ninjutsu than just wearing a black dogi and tabi. What does qualify one to create a ninjutsu system if they don't have a Traditional ninjutsu background? What is there goal in creating a modern Ninjutsu system. I would be interested to hear what is the mission statement from the modern ninjutsu people...

Regards


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## Moko (Nov 23, 2004)

The reason for the continued existance of the politics in the Bujinkan is to weed out those who are distracted by it.  The Whackjobs in Dave's area are the Brotherhood.   They are or were in my neck of the woods too.  I train in the Bujinkan and refuse to let their dopeyness impede my training.  I really don't care what they do.  In fact the MORE they punt each other in the happy meals the happier I am.  I know what I want.  I have seen the Bujinkan at it's best and refuse to quit training.  Hiatus, yes.  Quit, good luck.

As for Dave... He's pretty sneaky.  He's got himself a ninja sensei (Or something)up there whom he forgot to mention to Jeff.  Dave bails out of the Bujinkan before he knows anything really.  And that's not a slight.  How many years Dave?  Now he trains with anyone and everyone.  While I commend his freindliness I would not be in a hurry to allow hiim to any on our seminars.  Would he be able to pick up on the big lessons taught by a Dale or Jack or Bill or et al?  Who knows?  Would he detract the teacher from honest, loyal students of the Bujinkan?  Yes.  

And as for the stricture of not training with other teachers?  Why do we have to question Soke on this?  In the book Anne Frank's Diary, she asks her father what will happen when she dies?  Her father replies that when they go to the trarin station what happens?  He gives her the ticket just before she goes on.   Soke's made the trip.  He knows who we're asking about.  It's his advice to us PERSONALLY.  Deny it on your own peril.

My two cents or .0078496 USD  ( are there enough zeros in there?)


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## Don Roley (Nov 24, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Well certainly assuming that is was something that I did, I am not really all that interested in discussing it with you. Do I owe you an explaination?



Dave, I honestly believe that by mentioning the word "politics" as part of the reason you felt _forced_ to go out and form your own Bujin Godai system, that you owe us a complete explination instead of just enough to make it sound bad for others. It is kind of like when someone accuses another of "xenophobic" statements and refuses to give details. Are we talking about "kill all non-muslims" or "I don't think most non-muslims can understand what we go through living in the West." Some people may think that you excuses are silly. I wish you had not mentioned the word at all if you are not willing to give the full story.

But if you do not care about what others think enough to give an explination, then maybe you can just let it die right here. Some people will believe that your excuse is nothing _other than_ an excuse and your real reason was to set yourself up as a teacher before you were of a level able to do so in the Bujinkan. If that is what they think , and you do not care about their opinion, then shrug your shoulders and don't even bother responding. Do something better with your time. At the end of the day, the opinions of all of us really do not matter to anyone, but the more we try to argue about things like this the more people will be convinced that you really are interested in other people's opnions. Just let it go.

And I want to point out to everyone that the rules are quite clear about treating other members with respect. We can disagree and give our opinions, but there is a difference between, "no- you are wrong" and "WHAT KIND OF MORON DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO SAY SUCH A STUPID THING!" Surely we can do without comments on other member's resembling members of the canine class, dairy products, etc. I have just given someone grief about their use of sarcasm towards me on another forum, I will not be a hypocrite by letting others get away with the same thing if I can help it.

On a slightly different tangent, I have found that a lot of what is billed as "politics" is anything but. And, almost everthing that I would say is a case of people playing politics is carefully excused as something else.

Case in point- I and most Bujinkan members will have nothing to do with people who claim to come from Japan but are not. The guys who are shunned scream politics at the top of their voices. But to me, it is all about the fact they lied.

I have heard it say that if you call someone a "master" all you are _really_ saying that he is better than you. Think about it. If you walk into the typical McDojo you will see tens of people who think the teacher is a great master. But if Dan Insanto were to see it, well.... he is probably too polite to laugh out loud. Unless you want to say that you are some great master, then all you really can say is that the teacher is better than you. 

So, since I know some people are better than me, how do I tell if they are a true master, or just a few steps ahead? To me, it all comes down to how much I can trust them. If there is any deciet in them, then I will not put in the time to train with them because I already know I do not have all the answers. If they show me something outside my experience, then how do I know it is vaild and not just some bit of fluff? Dierct experience on the street? Sorry, I will pass on that type of test.

If someone claims to have a teacher than never existed, or belong to some great orginization that is anything but or does anything decietfull to make himslef look better in the eyes of students, then I do not trust him to be more than a step ahead of me no matter how impressive he seems. And I want an art and teacher that can take me more than one step ahead. I want a teacher that is not so concerned about seeming to be a master that he may do things to keep me back and under control. I want a teacher, like the one I have now, who will gladly say that I would be better off under a more skilled teacher than he and write the letter of introduction.

It is all about trust. And if you claim to be from a Japanese tradition and you are not, then I cannot trust you. That is not politics. Not at all.


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## still learning (Nov 24, 2004)

Hello, What is real? In todays world is it possible to have the real thing? The Old masters are gone. One teacher, many students, each student saw things differently. In todays world, can these students who are now teachers teach the real thing? What is real?....Aloha


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## Don Roley (Nov 25, 2004)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, What is real?



Whenever people start going off about how we really do not know what is real or not, I want to hit them up alongside the head with a baseball bat and say, "_That_ looked real. Real painfull."

I can take what you write two ways. One is that you really do not know what is real, and I am not going to bother trying to tell you. The other is that you seem to think you know more than anyone else and are looking down your nose at us without being specific. Again, I am not going to bother with what you say because I am just arrogent enough to believe that I probably do know more than someone devoting effort to impressing others with their wisdom.  :ultracool


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 25, 2004)

"When in doubt, try denying all previously accepted terms and definitions."


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