# Steven Lopez got KO'd in Mexico!!!



## ATC (Nov 15, 2009)

The king has been knocked off the mountian top.

[yt]EucJ6-mfnpo[/yt]


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## ATC (Nov 15, 2009)

Congrats to Aarron Cook.:asian:


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## ATC (Nov 15, 2009)

Also congrats to Steven Lopez for such a long run. Well done Sir!


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## Twin Fist (Nov 15, 2009)

if he got knocked out by that off balance, ACCIDENTAL no focus BS, he deserved it.

good lord, can any of these guys take a shot?


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## Marginal (Nov 15, 2009)

The first kick pulled his head down straight into the second kick which KO'ed him. Momentum magnified the second hit.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 15, 2009)

the other guy had both feet off the floor, no base at all, nothing to push against,  and wasnt even trying to throw an actual kick, and lopez got zoinked out.


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## ATC (Nov 15, 2009)

Well in sport TKD they have quite a few kicks that have some power that can be thrown in the air with no base. Side kick back kick combo is one that gets use quite often.

The kick you see here is another. That was no accident. Aaron was attempting and landed what is called a double with both kicks going high. He committed to the kick even though he knew he was going to fall. Doubles or running kicks as we call them are quite common. Most times they are thrown trunk trunk, or trunk head but some of the good ones will go head head with them. You will almost always fall but you must stay committed. But if you don't do the sport you won't know this.

Doubles also pack some punch as you are using the momentum of the first kick to push off for the power of the second kick, no base needed as your opponents body is your base or push off. The second kick is stronger than the first kick, belive it or not.


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## Carol (Nov 15, 2009)

Looks like the 2nd kick connects to the face of Lopez, and rings his bell enough so he can't slap/roll out of the fall when he should have...thus the KO coming from the knock on the noggin when he went to the mat.


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## mango.man (Nov 15, 2009)

I like that when you look at the score board, after the fact, apparently neither kick scored, as Aaron Cook still has just 2 points and that was a 6 point headshot combo.

Hey WTF IRs, pull your heads out and watch what is going on in the ring in front of you without concern yourself with who it is.

And if the refs didn't feel that either of those techniques were valid scoring techniques, than shouldn't Cook have been DQ'd?


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## ATC (Nov 15, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Looks like the 2nd kick connects to the face of Lopez, and rings his bell enough so he can't slap/roll out of the fall when he should have...thus the KO coming from the knock on the noggin when he went to the mat.


No, he was out on his way down. Look at his hands and how he falls. His head gear even came half way off. Watch the head snap back from the kick. He turned to have the first kick miss but did not expect the second as it is rare to have a double come to the head plus the kicks are bang bang and the first almost always misses but the second is harder and the main part of a two part kick.

We tell all our students that do sport TKD that this kick is a 70/100 kick. 70% power or even a miss on the first and 100% power on the second. We even have them throw the first to the leg or butt then bring the second to the trunk or head.

Many that don't do the sport call these flutter kicks and think that there is no power in them, but from being on the oppisite end many, many times they hurt like hell, even when you guard/block them.

If you watch the clip again in slow then fast motion you will see that the first high head kick was not with any intention at all but the second kick was snapped at the last second with full flex of the thigh and full extention from the knee. It was a well timed and placed kick.


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## jks9199 (Nov 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> if he got knocked out by that off balance, ACCIDENTAL no focus BS, he deserved it.
> 
> good lord, can any of these guys take a shot?


Looks like he took two shots there; the first one was off balance, but was enough to take Lopez's balance, too.  He was moving into the second, and it looked like a pretty good scissor kick as Cook was falling.  Put 'em together, and Lopez's head was bounced pretty good.

It wasn't a clean KO, as in out like light.  But apparently enough to meet the definition in the rules... I can't tell if he was able to get up or not.


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## Laurentkd (Nov 15, 2009)

A nice showing of sportsmanship as well...


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## terryl965 (Nov 15, 2009)

Aaron deserves this recognition, he has been working hard getting those skills.


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## ATC (Nov 15, 2009)

Was that check $270,000.00 USD or Pesos?:erg:

If WTF is paying $270K USD, I need to dust off my old gear and start training in the sport again!!!!


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## Mitlov (Nov 15, 2009)

I love how Cook keeps running over to Lopez to bow:

"Mr. Lopez, I'm such a fan, I have the utmost respect for you, I hold you in the highest regard Mr. Lopez!"
"Come back in a few minutes, son.  He's still out cold."


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## granfire (Nov 16, 2009)

Good kid.


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## Gorilla (Nov 16, 2009)

Nice kid!!! Great Kick!!! Lopez out cold!!! More comments from the peanut gallery!!! A great way to start a Monday!!!

Looks like they had a good crowd with lots of Fan participation!  Mexico is really getting behind Sport TKD!  I hope that they continue these events it is good for our sport!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 16, 2009)

Even with hogu, it happens.  Nice job Aaron, and likewise, to Steven for his own lengthy run.

Daniel


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## Manny (Nov 16, 2009)

It was a clean wing, period. Steven is a heck of fighter but age is age, the guy who ko Steven dereces all the respect from us.

This weekend I was referree ina local match and afther seeing the black belt divisions I knew why I will not succed in a tournament as a fighter, the new kids are strong and super fast.

Don't know if Lopez will recover from this lose, I asume yes but don't know how long it will takes to him to get over this lose and then again return like he is a superchamp. However we must remeber Lopez is 30 or 31 don't recall and with the pass of time he can be defeated more times by youngsters, maybe it¡'s time to the family Lopez to start to think in the other younger members.


Manny


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> No, he was out on his way down. Look at his hands and how he falls. His head gear even came half way off. Watch the head snap back from the kick. He turned to have the first kick miss but did not expect the second as it is rare to have a double come to the head plus the kicks are bang bang and the first almost always misses but the second is harder and the main part of a two part kick.
> 
> We tell all our students that do sport TKD that this kick is a 70/100 kick. 70% power or even a miss on the first and 100% power on the second. We even have them throw the first to the leg or butt then bring the second to the trunk or head.
> 
> ...



After watching it again...I think you're right, he was konked by the kick.  I thought I saw more movement in his arms than I did.  

You might like the movie Ong Bak 2, if you haven't seen it.  Tony Jaa is largely Muay Thai but in many places in the movie you can see him placing kick to launch himself off his opponent's body in order to perform the next move.

I have no doubt that those kicks are forceful.  They just make it look easy.


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## ATC (Nov 16, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> I have no doubt that those kicks are forceful. *They just make it look easy*.


Never have words been more true.


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## d1jinx (Nov 16, 2009)

I hate to sound like the donkey I am here..... BUT I LOVED IT.  I am so happy to see someone finally get past that knee up block then counter/hop on one leg.  Did you watch the first round?????  he busted his eye open.  Not sureif he needed stitches.  not like it will be posted on the front page of USAT website either....

Dont get me wrong.  I think Steven is a really nice and respectful guy.  (way more so than his arogant little *** of a brother) But I have seen many of his fights and on more than one occasion I feel he only won because of who he is.  The most recent Copenhagen fights were a good example.  I just dont think he is as great as the WORLD makes him out to be.  But.... he wins.  and winning all the time makes you great.

AWESOME JOB AARON.  WAY TO DE-THRONE THE KING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

best part... this comes just days after being named USOC Athlete of the month.


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## d1jinx (Nov 16, 2009)

mango.man said:


> I like that when you look at the score board, after the fact, apparently neither kick scored, as Aaron Cook still has just 2 points and that was a 6 point headshot combo.
> 
> Hey WTF IRs, pull your heads out and watch what is going on in the ring in front of you without concern yourself with who it is.
> 
> And if the refs didn't feel that either of those techniques were valid scoring techniques, than shouldn't Cook have been DQ'd?


 
*<<<<<<<<<EXCELLENT POINT>>>>>>>>>*

Had he not been KO'd, they would have had the excuse not to give him the points because he fell to the ground.  Remember a few years back when they wouldnt score points if you didnt remain standing.... we would have seen that again.  

I have always said, *"the only way to win against the favorite.... knock his *** out"*


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## ATC (Nov 16, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> ... this comes just days after being named USOC Athlete of the month.


 Wonder is this was a WTF ranked event, and if this will drop him in the world rankings?


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## Marginal (Nov 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the other guy had both feet off the floor, no base at all, nothing to push against



That much is true of any jumping kick. He did have a base for that second kick though. Lopez's head.


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## terryl965 (Nov 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Wonder is this was a WTF ranked event, and if this will drop him in the world rankings?


 
As I understand it, it was. I wonder if being KO'ed will efeect that number one ranking?


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the other guy had both feet off the floor, no base at all, nothing to push against, and wasnt even trying to throw an actual kick, and lopez got zoinked out.


 

Therein lies a fundamental conceptual difference between the "Deeply Rooted" or needing a base to genrate power of say Shotokan vs TKD which generates power thru use of body mechanics without needing a base.


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## d1jinx (Nov 16, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Therein lies a fundamental conceptual difference between the "Deeply Rooted" or needing a base to genrate power of say Shotokan vs TKD which generates power thru use of body mechanics without needing a base.


 
I think a very good example of this is the Pacquia / Cotto fight that happened this weekend.  

Cotto punched with his feet firmly planted and using a base for his power.  Pacman was lighting up cotto at times without his feet touching the floor or while moving in any direction and his punches HURT cotto.  He was able to generate power from his body and "snap" his punches.  He is a hard hitter and doesnt plant his feet for every shot.  he puts his hands "on Target" regardless of body position and is more than effective.... and I was routing for cotto.

Not saying that was the case here.  This was pure momentum.  Lopez being jarred forward and Cook's kick meeting him "en-route".

In a fight.... anything can happen.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

ok, i have watched it about 100 more times since my initial comments, and you know what?

after re-watching it all those times? i am even LESS impressed

there is no FORM, it wasnt even a kick. Tell me what kick has you FALLING ON YOUR ***????

he was falling on his *** and he just THREW his leg up there.

the shot that knocked lopez out was pathetic, off balance CLEARLY, an accident

Lopez just had the misfortune of getting konked on the button, and having little ability to resist a KO since he hasnt trained that way. Pure bad luck and improper training.


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## ATC (Nov 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ok, i have watched it about 100 more times since my initial comments, and you know what?
> 
> after re-watching it all those times? i am even LESS impressed
> 
> ...


:rofl:
TF, I know you don't do or like the sport, so why comment on something you know nothing about. You have not done it, wont do it but always have so much to say about something that you don't know. I find that fascinating.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

i know you cant throw a decent kick while you are falling on your ***


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## Gorilla (Nov 16, 2009)

To be able to throw an off balance kick while falling down land it and KO a 5-time world champion 3- time Olympic Medalist is quite impressive.  I am sure that he is very happy.  I would hope that nobody will tell him that some people on Martial Talk are not impressed with his kick.  He might give back all the $ and the trophy!!!


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## granfire (Nov 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i know you cant throw a decent kick while you are falling on your ***




Dunno, looked pretty decent to me. Knocked his opponent out, what more can you ask for.


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## Laurentkd (Nov 16, 2009)

:trollsign

We need one of these that says please do not feed Twin Fist






(All in good fun)


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## Raistlin (Nov 16, 2009)

I have to agree with Twin Fist on this. TaeKwonDo was developed as a martial art. A method of defending one's self. Although the art has been evolving more and more into a sport, it should still remain practical. Watching what sport tkd has evolved into is sickening. It in no way resembles a practical based fighting system anymore. To stand face to face to someone with your hands around your waist and then throw a kick which lands you on your back? Come on. Unless you by some fluke happen to knock your opponent out, you would get killed in a street fight. These guys are certainly talented athletes but it is quite a stretch to call them martial artists. This is why I have moved away from the WTF and focused my efforts on the martial art of TaeKwonDo.


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## Quest (Nov 16, 2009)

Although I am new to MT, I have been reading for some time.  I am amazed at some of the comments on this forum.  Give Lopez credit.  He has been at the top of Olympic TKD for a long time.  He is the best.  His credentials speak for themselves.  I am sure he will be the first to admit he got beat by a great opponent with an even greater kick.  All champions will fall if they compete long enough.  But to say he got beat by a "lucky" kick is naive.  ATC is correct.  That combination is very difficult.  

My parents taught me that if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.  I am tired of reading comments about sport vs. art.  We all have opinions.  Why can't we all agree that there is a difference of opinion and let it be.  Why cause trouble just to cause trouble?


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

cuz that would be boring as hell and no one would want to read it. oh, and becaue we dont live on candy cane island.............LOL:angel:


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

Laurentkd said:


> :trollsign
> 
> We need one of these that says please do not feed Twin Fist
> 
> ...





:hb:

i just love that emoticon.......hey now, i deserve access to quality food, and i mean LOOK at me, do i look like i miss many meals?


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> To be able to throw an off balance kick while falling down land it and KO a 5-time world champion 3- time Olympic Medalist is quite impressive.  I am sure that he is very happy.  I would hope that nobody will tell him that some people on Martial Talk are not impressed with his kick.  He might give back all the $ and the trophy!!!




if yo think he was actually AIMING, and managed to hit where he was aiming, i want some of what you are smoking brother


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2009)

Looks like he was aiming.  Here's the entire fight from the network broadcast.  Its a camera capturing what is on the TV screen so the quality isn't as good, but at the end they show the KO from several different angles.

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Note:  the cell phone of the person making the recording goes off making an obnoxious beeping noise so he adds a caption to the video with a curse word.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

the new angles do make it look more intentional thanks Carol.

one in a million either way. 

Wish he hadnt done so much celebrating afterward, it was...tacky

awesome round kick/turn back kick combo that lopez tried to play was too low


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm not familiar with this type of sparring.  What's the point of all the hugging?


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

good question. I mean, sure there is the brotherhood of sport. sure, they look damn good in them there white jammies.....i dont know


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## d1jinx (Nov 16, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm not familiar with this type of sparring. What's the point of all the hugging?


 
Yeah, I dont like that either.  kind of silly and embarrassing.  When I center Ref, I dont let them hug that long.  I thought they were slow dancing for a minute there.

Some people try to counter off the "clinch" so the ref's usually give them a few seconds to see if any play will develope.  Almost never does.  

This fight is not a good example of what olympic TKD is supposed to be.  But this is what it has evolved into.  When played right, I t can be a very interesting and good match.  The WTF is constantly evolving its rules to get away from the way it has become. I have said a million times that i am not that impressed with many matches of Lopez.  But I have seen other less "famous" fighters with some really outstanding matches....


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2009)

I thought at first they were doing a friendly break, then it looked like they were trying some rather odd close shots, then it looked like a boxing clinch but the ref didn't seem hurried in breaking it up.  Hence my confusion.  I'm more familiar with FMA stick fighting though and point karate.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

that sounds right


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## ATC (Nov 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the new angles do make it look more intentional thanks Carol.
> 
> one in a million either way.
> 
> ...


The thing is that many of us here that are quite familuar with this sport can see that this was intentional. But I guess us that do and know what we are looking at just talk to be talking, even though we do and teach this everyday.:shrug:


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## ATC (Nov 16, 2009)

Raistlin said:


> I have to agree with Twin Fist on this. TaeKwonDo was developed as a martial art. A method of defending one's self. Although the art has been evolving more and more into a sport, it should still remain practical. Watching what sport tkd has evolved into is sickening. It in no way resembles a practical based fighting system anymore. To stand face to face to someone with your hands around your waist and then throw a kick which lands you on your back? Come on. Unless you by some fluke happen to knock your opponent out, you would get killed in a street fight. These guys are certainly talented athletes but it is quite a stretch to call them martial artists. This is why I have moved away from the WTF and focused my efforts on the martial art of TaeKwonDo.


Not sure why you are trying ot equate the two. Most of these competitors do both the art and the sport. Can't for the life of me understand why it is so hard for some to understand this.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 16, 2009)

prob because this "sport" teaches habits that destroy the art


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## ATC (Nov 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> prob because this "sport" teaches habits that destroy the art


And you know this how?


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## Mitlov (Nov 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> And you know this how?



He mugged Steven Lopez and has the driver's license to prove it?


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## goingd (Nov 17, 2009)

Teaching someone constant focus, reaction and motion really kills the art side of Taekwondo dudes. I mean, who would want such qualities in a martial art?


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> And you know this how?


 

Review post #35.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> And you know this how?



it isnt a big secret

hands around your waist

no hand techniques

no guarding the groin

too much hugging

too much falling over

all ok in a sport

all will get your butt killed on the street


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2009)

And we are still compairing Filet Mignon and Hashbrowns.

I think, if we focus on the 2 guys who met on a level playing field that is not the street, we get a lot further.


(besides, I just love the 'it get's you killed in the streets' argument. A lot of things get you killed in the streets, but number one cause of this is being in a bad place...neither guns nor MA training replaces common sense)


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

People who do Sport TKD understand that 90% of what they do is NOT applicable in the mythical "Street" or "Street Fight" that everyone is always referring to.  ATC, Terry and many more have stated that Olympic Sport TKD Athletes understand that what they do is a sport and should not be compared to self defense.  The only thing that hurts the art is the constant complaining by people who have ax to grind with the sport side of TKD.  Everyone I know who practices the Sport of TKD also loves the art side and the self defense side.  We love traditional TKD.  We also happen to love the sport!  Why people refuse to see open there minds and see both sides is beyond me.


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2009)

Well, one does not have to like it, but it's easy enough to separate from 'the Art' 

And no matter how you slice it, getting a kick off while falling, that is mighty impressive to me, no matter how odd I find the sport to look.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

there you go making sense again. We'll have NONE of that here, thank you very much



granfire said:


> And we are still compairing Filet Mignon and Hashbrowns.
> 
> I think, if we focus on the 2 guys who met on a level playing field that is not the street, we get a lot further.
> 
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> The only thing that hurts the art is the constant complaining by people who have ax to grind with the sport side of TKD.





bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer

what hurts the ART is people seeing the SPORT and thinking it is the ART


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## Manny (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> it isnt a big secret
> 
> hands around your waist
> 
> ...


 

I have to agree with you in all the above that is not MA that is a GAME a full contact GAME. The match beetwen Steven and Aaron was that a GAME that Aaron capitalize, he won by a well knock out, it was fate? don't know, but Aaron is a complete Atlethe and a champion and he is well prepared for winning matches even by ko.

I don't like at all the GAME of TKD but it's waht it is? However I've seeing local and national matches in my country pretty close to tell people that a well placed kick can hurt.

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> The only thing that hurts the art is the constant complaining by people who have ax to grind with the sport side of TKD.


While I agree that this does not help, it is by *far* the _least_ of what hurts taekwondo as an art. Rampant commercialization at the expense of the art in pursuit of short term or individual financial gain is the arts biggest enemy.  This is independent of the sportive debate.

Daniel


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## Archtkd (Nov 17, 2009)

This could be futile, but cant we all please get along and try to stop this discussion from turning into one of those: us (art TKD) versus them (sport TKD) threads. 

ATC , jk199 and some other folks have said some very instructive thing about Aaron Cooks KO kick, to which little can be added. There can be some debate about whether the Brits jumping double or scissor kick was clean, but it was a stock of the trade Taekwondo sparring kick. That kick that can be easily learned by good soccer players, who should know how to fall properly while also hitting a target. 

As noted by others, Cooks kick was also fast, powerful and most of all accurate, a thing we all endeavor to learn or teach in Taekwondo. Accuracy is the key word here, and I think Mr. Cooks kick  despite his fall  landed squarely on Lopezs jaw or temple. 

There also can argument about Steve Lopez blocking abilities or lack thereof, but again, Mr. Cook destabilized him with the first kick, which is what a double/scissor kick is supposed to do. We throw or teach our students to use the first kick to set up the second. The normal expectation is that an opponent will block the first kick, and fail to evade or block the second more powerful kick. 

In Taekwondo, the first kick in a jumping double/scissor sequence  when thrown well, with a conditioned foot  also has been known to discourage blocking, because it can be purposefully used to break or injure an opponents blocking hand. Good Taekwondo blocks, to turn the coin, also can be used to discourage some kickers, by injuring or breaking parts of their feet..

The short of all this is that we could all use a good Taekwondo jumping double/scissor kick on the street or on the mat.


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## Carol (Nov 17, 2009)

Not to mention the fact that we may be watching the next superstar.   One of the biggest names around just got KO'ed by a 17 year old from the UK.  This is a big deal for the sport.


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> there you go making sense again. We'll have NONE of that here, thank you very much




I am sorry, I am actively trying to keep it to a minimum, I promise!


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2009)

I love the way people turn this into a "What If"  deal about sport and street. or sport and art...

*Last time I check, the match happened in the ring.... NOT ON THE STREET... *  unless that was a redlight and a hooker in the background.


Its  like saying, pro NBA players would get KILLED on the street in street ball.  TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS AND RULES, SURROUNDINGS AND ATMOSPHERES.  Some can adapt, some WOULD get killed.


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## Manny (Nov 17, 2009)

I think the same kick Aaron used to nail Steven in the matt can have the same efect on the streets, would I use the sissors kick in the street??? I think I would not, cause this kind of kick I am not used to use it.

In a game like WTF/Olimpic kyorugi we can use what ever we want, the only risk is to be caught and counter like Aaron did with Steven, in the streets you can be hurt pretty bad or be killed.

I think Aaron deserves all the credit for his KO on Steven, and who knows?? maybe this is the beginning of a new TKD Competitor Fighter.

Manny


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
> 
> wrong answer
> 
> what hurts the ART is people seeing the SPORT and thinking it is the ART



People see a lot of things and think it's something else.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

To all who seem bent on debating sport versus art, here is your thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1240833#post1240833

Aaron Cook and Steven Lopez competed in a sport and the kick and subsequent KO occurred within the bounds of said sport. Whether or not sport hurts the art, is better or worse than the art, or is any one of a number of other debated things is a *completely different topic!*

The way that seemingly most of the threads in this section go to this topic, Kukkiwon problems, or child belts has become *way* more than tiresome. There is nothing wrong with discussing these topics, but they should not be the focal point of the entire taekwondo section.

Daniel


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## Miles (Nov 17, 2009)

Nice kick Aaron and even better sportsmanship by both Steven and Aaron.  

I don't know Steven but I'll bet he goes back and trains even harder.  He's a world-class athlete and a world-class act.

Aaron is a real- "up and comer" and will be very exciting to watch for a long time.

Re: double kicks-we teach the first kick is like a jab and the second like a cross-there is much more power on the second kick.  You don't see too many head-head doubles-very difficult to pull off and there is a longer recovery period (though at this level, they can pull it off better than us average Joes).


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

I hope that Steven does use this as a springboard to take his game to the next level for him.  Who knows?  Aaron could have just turned up the heat in Steven's boilers.

Either way, nice kick! 

Daniel


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Review post #35.


Post #35 was answerd with post #48.

One cannot hurt the other as they are separate entities.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> While I agree that this does not help, it is by *far* the _least_ of what hurts taekwondo as an art. Rampant commercialization at the expense of the art in pursuit of short term or individual financial gain is the arts biggest enemy.  This is independent of the sportive debate.
> 
> Daniel




Agreed...My use of hyperbole to prove a point!  Complaining is by far the least of TKD's worries.  It is just the one that is causing me the most frustration at this time.


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> it isnt a big secret
> 
> hands around your waist
> 
> ...


This does not answer how you know that the *"sport" teaches habits that destroy the art.*

You simply mentioned things you see when watching the sport. Unless you do the sport and then it somehow degrades what you do when you practice the art or your SD, then you can say something like, "My SD is suffering because I got mugged and I forgot how to block a punch and the mugger punched me and took my money. But other than something like that, your statement really make no sense.

Now if you meant that the perception of the art then maybe I can understand that theory. But there is no way it can destory that art. The art is what it is.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

granfire said:


> I am sorry, I am actively trying to keep it to a minimum, I promise!




you just see to it that you do!!


*watching you*


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

you seem to be under the delusion that people trained in korean hippy skippy kick boxing can flip a switch and go to effective self defense

I have never known of one that could.

habits are habits, and korean kick boxing teaches some HORRID habits


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you seem to be under the delusion that people trained in korean hippy skippy kick boxing can flip a switch and go to effective self defense



I would word it another way, but it's true enough that you can "groove" in certain physical movements.  I read an anecdote from a karate stylist somewhere where he relates punching someone in the nose in an altercation.  The only problem is that he pulled his punch out of habit and only touched the other guy, rather than striking him.  Keeping your hands down, backing up to get proper range for a kick, etc, these are all habits that might be good for sport sparring, but could be very bad decisions to make in an actual self-defense situation.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

exactly right, i touch on this in the other thread


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Not sure why you are trying ot equate the two. Most of these competitors do both the art and the sport. Can't for the life of me understand why it is so hard for some to understand this.[/quote
> 
> 1. Because how you train is how you react.
> 2. If you are a high level athlete of any sort you will train according to competition rules . You will simply not have the time, energy or mental alacrity to pracice all the neccessary machinations and  change the mindset and tactics in any given situation yet maintain the high level of proficiency needed for competiton.
> ...


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you seem to be under the delusion that people trained in korean hippy skippy kick boxing can flip a switch and go to effective self defense
> 
> I have never known of one that could.
> 
> habits are habits, and korean kick boxing teaches some HORRID habits


Again. If you don't do then how can you say for certain what it does? Some things percived as habbit are not. We don't train to create habbits, we train to read and react.


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. Because how you train is how you react.
> 2. If you are a high level athlete of any sort you will train according to competition rules . You will simply not have the time, energy or mental alacrity to pracice all the neccessary machinations and change the mindset and tactics in any given situation yet maintain the high level of proficiency needed for competiton.
> 
> Note that none of the above 2 statements are unique to Olympic style sparring. The same might be said for a high level Judoka vs. a competitve Ju Jitsu guy competing under Ju Jitsu rules.
> ...


You just said that you train to react. Not we train to make habbits.

I box as well as do TKD. I have never in sparring with someone in a boxing ring tried to kick them.

Also after sometime learning how to do the sport of WTF competition I have never punched anyone in the face.

It did take some time to not reflex to punch the face but after sometime it is possible. But I can still step into a boxing ring and box and just use my hands, then flip back to WTF sparing and only use my feet. But I will punch to the hogu.

The brain is a remarkable thing and has the ability to learn manythings well.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Again. If you don't do then how can you say for certain what it does? Some things percived as habbit are not. We don't train to create habbits, we train to read and react.



Read and react...a cornerstone of many sports...it is a mantra at TDT...read and react is good in all situations!!!


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## d1jinx (Nov 18, 2009)

ANd still not a peep of this on USAT's website.   hmmmmmm...


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## mango.man (Nov 18, 2009)

It has been there since yesterday.  Not easy to find and certainly not plastered on the front page, but the news is there:

http://usa-taekwondo.us/news/2009/11/17/steven-diana-lopez-medal-at-world-taekwondo-tour/29151


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## granfire (Nov 19, 2009)

mango.man said:


> It has been there since yesterday.  Not easy to find and certainly not plastered on the front page, but the news is there:
> 
> http://usa-taekwondo.us/news/2009/11/17/steven-diana-lopez-medal-at-world-taekwondo-tour/29151




LOL, sad when the winner is an also mentioned in the article....


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

mango.man said:


> It has been there since yesterday. Not easy to find and certainly not plastered on the front page, but the news is there:
> 
> http://usa-taekwondo.us/news/2009/11/17/steven-diana-lopez-medal-at-world-taekwondo-tour/29151


Thanks, Got to love the heading on that page. They make it sound like he won.


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

Wasn't the final score of the match 4 - 2 Steven, or at least what was on the score screen? Well this was posted on the USAT site about the rules of those matches in Mexico.



> Modified WTF Competition Rules were applied to the event, in which a kick to the head granted an athlete four points, together with a strict 10-second rule.


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## granfire (Nov 19, 2009)

well I guess Aaron Cook had at least 4 points...


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## mango.man (Nov 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Wasn't the final score of the match 4 - 2 Steven, or at least what was on the score screen? Well this was posted on the USAT site about the rules of those matches in Mexico.


 
Ref Post #9 in this thread.  Of course that was before I knew that it was 4 points for the head so amend my mention of a 6 point combo to an 8 point combo.


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## terryl965 (Nov 19, 2009)

Bottom line Steven got cought with a nice double jumping kick. Sometimes we need to be put down to rise to the top again, age is certainly catching up with him.


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## granfire (Nov 19, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Bottom line Steven got cought with a nice double jumping kick. Sometimes we need to be put down to rise to the top again, age is certainly catching up with him.




I suppose he had a long run, and the new generation of hungry youngsters is chomping at the bit to get their time in the lime light. 

(how old is he anyhow, for 'age' to catch up to him? LOL)


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## terryl965 (Nov 19, 2009)

granfire said:


> I suppose he had a long run, and the new generation of hungry youngsters is chomping at the bit to get their time in the lime light.
> 
> (how old is he anyhow, for 'age' to catch up to him? LOL)


 
30 or older and in tournament fighting that is old, maybe he needs to change over to poomsae?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2009)

granfire said:


> I suppose he had a long run, and the new generation of hungry youngsters is chomping at the bit to get their time in the lime light.
> 
> (how old is he anyhow, for 'age' to catch up to him? LOL)


Roughly the same age at which football players are considered old.  He was born in 1978, which makes him 31.  As athletes go, that is generally considered old, in large part due to mileage up to that point.

Daniel


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## Laurentkd (Nov 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Wasn't the final score of the match 4 - 2 Steven, or at least what was on the score screen? Well this was posted on the USAT site about the rules of those matches in Mexico.


 

4 points for a head shot? I thought it was 3????

I wonder if the points weren't on the screen only because they happended so fast and then there was Lopez lying on the mat KO'd.  IS ther ereally any need to score points at that point? At least that is what I am telling myself- surely those corners would have counted those points!


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## d1jinx (Nov 19, 2009)

Laurentkd said:


> 4 points for a head shot? I thought it was 3????
> 
> I wonder if the points weren't on the screen only because they happended so fast and then there was Lopez lying on the mat KO'd. IS ther ereally any need to score points at that point? At least that is what I am telling myself- surely those corners would have counted those points!


 
Well, if memory serves me correctly, And Im not sure, I thought a head shot was now 3 but anytime a person got a count for a knock down, it added a point.  Say he got hit in the head and knocked down, 3 pts, then the resulting 8 count (if he got back up) awarded the other player another point making it 4 total.  it used to be that way when head shots were 2 pts too.  But I'm not sure if it changed or still exisits...

either way, they didnt score any of the kicks Cook got as he still had only 2 pts.

I am curious to know if the 8 count point still exists.... I will try to find out.


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> Well, if memory serves me correctly, And Im not sure, I thought a head shot was now 3 but anytime a person got a count for a knock down, it added a point. Say he got hit in the head and knocked down, 3 pts, then the resulting 8 count (if he got back up) awarded the other player another point making it 4 total. it used to be that way when head shots were 2 pts too. But I'm not sure if it changed or still exisits...
> 
> either way, they didnt score any of the kicks Cook got as he still had only 2 pts.
> 
> I am curious to know if the 8 count point still exists.... I will try to find out.


These were modified rules for this tournament only. Head shots were 4 points for this tournament. Not sure about the 1 point 8 count but it still exists for normal rules with 3 points for the head and an extra point for the count.

As for why the points did not ring up, it should not matter is Steven was down and they were just concerned. They need to score the points as they see them no after they think someone is OK. You score the points need to ring up. Steven could have gotten up right away, then what?

The way the scoring works with the triggers is that 3 out of 4 judges need to score the points within 1 second. If that does not happen then no points will ring up. That is why you need to score the points as you see them. This is to reply to Laurentkd.


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## granfire (Nov 19, 2009)

I would guess the score board isn't the official score anyhow, just a display.


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## mango.man (Nov 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> These were modified rules for this tournament only. Head shots were 4 points for this tournament. Not sure about the 1 point 8 count but it still exists for normal rules with 3 points for the head and an extra point for the count.


 
Actually, I believe the new rules from Jun 30th are that there is no more bonus point for 8 counts or knock downs.


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## Laurentkd (Nov 19, 2009)

We were told at the FIC in Chicago that there no longer was an extra point for the knock down (someone correct me if I am wrong). Thanks ATC, I know how it is "supposed" to work... I was just hoping there was some legit reason for the points not to be shown other than bias corners... guess not


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks, I stand corrected.


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