# Domestic violence



## hoshin1600 (Aug 28, 2016)

last night i happened to find out my aunt who passed away a few years ago was a victim of domestic violence and it was her husband that shot and killed her then turned the gun on himself.
she was originally married to my uncle but he had passed away of a heart attack back in the 80's she had remarried and the family had lost track of her.  then someone had made contact and her and her new husband started to show up at Christmas family gatherings.  i knew she had passed but i didnt know why or how until last night when i was talking to a cousin.
as an instructor of self defense i am now wondering how anything i teach could have helped someone in her situation.  at the moment i feel that somehow self defense would not apply to a domestic situation but that just feels wrong and incomplete.  i had a student many years ago when i was a karate teacher that was abused by her husband. we never spoke about it directly but it was known.  she really changed the way i approach self defense and my own path has become more about self defense because of our interactions. but now all these years later i still feel that what i do is still not applicable to a domestic situation.
am i right ?  how do others feel their martial arts training or teaching applies.


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## drop bear (Aug 28, 2016)

Yeah pretty much. Because the self defence option is just so nuts in that circumstance.

There is no normal environment where training to defeat a loved one makes sense. I mean if you have gotten to that point you leave them you don't bash them.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 28, 2016)

Part of the problem with domestic violence, is that we only see one sex as the perp, and one sex as a victim. Just as we need to teach little boys, not to rape, we need to teach little girls not to hit boys; because, eventually, boys will hit back, and that is when people get hurt.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 28, 2016)

The thing is self defense is somtimes expanded to self protection.  Like I said I have had students who were training in a martial arts program because of it. I am sure many others have too without the teachers knowledge of their situation.  It would seem reasonable to know how to address this issue.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 28, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> The thing is self defense is somtimes expanded to self protection.  Like I said I have had students who were training in a martial arts program because of it. I am sure many others have too without the teachers knowledge of their situation.  It would seem reasonable to know how to address this issue.


They are paying you to teach the fighting part; so, it is understandable. However, you also need to speak to them about what is, and what isn't ok. A big part of Self Defense is knowing when you are putting yourself in a self defense situation.


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## jks9199 (Aug 28, 2016)

Domestic violence is a very complicated subject.  It's late, I'm tired, and I'm not going to go into great depths.  In very brief, there's a lot to consider; there's a cycle of abuse, apology, romance, leading back to abuse.  There are codependent issues, even issues of actual being in control by being able to trigger an abusive action...  

So... what can a martial arts teacher do?  Learn the signs of domestic abuse.  Recognize them, and report it when appropriate, to the appropriate authorities.  Offer a safe haven and have a list of referrals so that you can offer them support when they need it. 

You can offer self defense classes at local domestic abuse shelters, too.  Some will take you up on it; some won't.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2016)

Sorry for your loss, Hoshin.

Tough subject. The problem, and the solution, goes far beyond the defense of one self. It's never a matter of just defending oneself and the problem is over, as might be the case in an ambush. Usually, the victim has to take up roots, move, maybe change jobs or get one, end the life that they knew and get different authorities involved. It's something that seems so daunting, so impossible, it can overwhelm. That's why they stay.

I do not believe the matter of domestic violence ever goes away, in that, the man learns his lesson and doesn't do it again. There are two types of men, those that abuse and those that do not. There's probably exceptions, but I've never seen them. Not ever.

I wish I had some advice that I felt comfortable putting in print. I do not.


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## Headhunter (Aug 29, 2016)

Best thing to do tell them to call the cops. Teaching them self defence probably isn't the best in the long run for them because if a relationship has gotten that bad. The person getting abused is probably not going to leave. So if the aggressor attacks their partner and the victim uses self defence that'll just make the aggressor do something even worse next time like use a weapon. Anyone who abuses their partner is a bully who does because the victims weaker physically than them if they see the victim knows how to handle it they'll step up the aggression to get the upper hand so best option someone tells you they're getting abused tell them to call the police if they won't do it you call them yourself. I don't care if it's a breach of a teachers confidentiality or whatever it seriously pisses me off when you see priests refuse to call the police on murderers because of their code or whatever screw that my code is dont let scum get away with being scum.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2016)

My martial arts has little to do about domestic abuse however as a Girl Guide leader taking girls and young women aged from 5-26 we work tremendously hard to encourage, teach and inspire them to be confident young people. This includes being confident in themselves with their bodies and with their relationships so that that feel they can either walk away from a violent relationship or not get into one to start with by recognising the signs of a controlling partner. As the worlds' largest girls charity violence of all sorts concerns us and we have campaigns on this as well as other ideas and subjects. We believe that we have to make the changes we need, we campaign nationally and internationally as well. If we can help prevent violence to women ( yes I do know that domestic violence is not just towards women) then we have to do everything we can.
there is a lot of resources on this site, our world site which might be of use. Search Results


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

Domestic violence is more of an inner issue than an external issue and by that I mean, that women and men usually see the signs of violent behavior but choose to ignore it or deny it's as bad as it is.  This mindset more than anything else seems to be what keeps the person in the relationship.  One of the common things that the person would do is validate why their spouse or significant other is beating them.   In other cases the person may feel weak, hopeless, or have too much fear to escape.  We understand Fight or Flight tendency but we rarely speak of the tendency to freeze, which causes people to do nothing about actively addressing the situation.

Low self confidence and self doubt in these situations also cause the person to stay in the relationship longer than they should.  The other type of personality that I'm aware of, are those people who think they can "turn someone around" and "fix them" so they can be a better person. 

Domestic Violence is often a 2 problem issue where it's not just the abuser that's the problem, but the victim may have personal weaknesses that prevent him or her from getting out of a bad situation.  In the event that it's not a personal weakness, it may be a financial one, where the abuser financially handicaps the victim which in turn starts to breed some of those other issues.

When it comes to self-defense, I never put my safety in the hands of another person.  Assuming and hoping that someone who is attacking me will change and give me mercy is an example of someone putting their safety in the hands of another person.  Personal safety is something that the individual must control.

The one thing that I always talk about in self defense classes and in my martial arts classes is that we always have to control the situation.  By controlling the situation I mean deciding what happens next to the best of one's ability.  It doesn't mean that I try to boss my attacker around, it just simply means that I act in a way that will allow me to either end the threat or to get out of a situation with the minimum amount of harm.  One domestic abuse starts that person should always be viewed as an attacker even when they aren't physically attacking. Once this is first recognized or even "shows up" as concern, then the goal should be to get out.  Getting out of the situation means getting out.  It doesn't mean delaying it for one day and then hope it doesn't come back the next day.  Even if that person cares, and wants to help the other person, they need to do it from the outside and through a 3rd party and never directly.   

I've known people and have had family members who have been abused and the one thing that they had in common is that they felt that they could make the person less abusive or cure the person from that behavior.  The other thing that I notice is that the abusive person tends to get into relationships with people who they know they can abuse.  So the significant other is actually being picked for the main reason of abusing that person.  

The only real thing that I've seen as a solution is that a woman or man has to love themselves above everything else.  It sounds selfish but it's the only way to find value in oneself that is independent of all of the other material and emotional things that we use mark value in a person's life.  I've seen women who could physically defend themselves fail to do so simply because they didn't place enough value in their own well being.  You can probably ask these 2 questions.
1.  What do you do in life that makes you feel valuable.
2.  If you were in the desert by yourself, then what makes you feel valuable.

At the most the answer to #2 should be as close to #1.  In my case, the answer for # 1 is that I consider myself as a good person that should be treated with respect, and if it came down do it, then it's better to have a good person on the planet then a bad person.

My answer for #2 is.  The same as #1 replacing  "treated with respect" with the right to live and thrive.  If a good person lives and thrives then that person can do more good.

Both of these answers are reflective of how I see myself and that I don't attach myself to material items that define status.  When people start to define their value as what they do for others then there could be a risk of not being able to get out of a relationship that turns abusive.  Especially if how they value themselves ties closely into the person that is abusing them.  

Once the inner characteristics are handled then the physical self defense becomes an option.  The unfortunate part about dealing with the inner characteristics is that Martial Arts instructors are probably the wrong people to handle things like that.  But bringing in someone who understands the mind and self-esteem issues on that level to speak to students could be part of the solution.

Hopefully this will help or provide some ideas.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only real thing that I've seen as a solution is that a woman or man has to love themselves above everything else. It sounds selfish but it's the only way to find value in oneself that is independent of all of the other material and emotional things that we use mark value in a person's life. I've seen women who could physically defend themselves fail to do so simply because they didn't place enough value in their own well being



Absolutely, which is why in Guiding we work with the girls to try to make sure they have the sense of worth that means they have the confidence in themselves and their relationships. As you also said abusers are drawn to those they can abuse, by trying to make young women confident and assertive they are no longer the targets of that type of abuser.


I am aware that it's not only women are abused and they can be the abusers but I'm also aware that I can only help where I can, I can't take on more than that.


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## Juany118 (Aug 29, 2016)

Martial arts training really can't address domestic violence.  Domestic violence is NOT about violence, it's about power and control.  Physical violence typically only rises when the aggressive party feels they have lost control somehow, somewhere.

Because of this, in a situation like hoshin's family has encountered, it is the culmination of years of abuse.  The abuse overtime can break down the strongest of people, even people trained to deal with such trauma.  One of my best friends, who is a Licensed Clinical Sociologist who runs a Batterer's program, one of the strongest women I know and she was in an abusive relationship for a time.  She is free now and the guy she is with was great but there were more than a few nights I remember sitting with her even after she left having to "talk her down" from feeling guilt over leaving the ******* who she should have left 10 years earlier.

It's a mess with no easy answers and it sucks, a lot.


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## jks9199 (Aug 29, 2016)

Buka said:


> I do not believe the matter of domestic violence ever goes away, in that, the man learns his lesson and doesn't do it again. There are two types of men, those that abuse and those that do not. There's probably exceptions, but I've never seen them. Not ever.



I take a bit of exception to the phrasing here.  Abusers can be men or women; my first domestic arrest was the wife who'd thrown a frying pan at her husband (who had done nothing wrong in any interpretation) and shattered his elbow.  The stereotype of domestic abuse is lower class, man beating his wife.  The truth is domestic abuse -- even limiting it to physical abuse, rather than including emotional or psychological abuse -- crosses all socioeconomic lines, and that the abuser may be male or female.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> I take a bit of exception to the phrasing here.  Abusers can be men or women; my first domestic arrest was the wife who'd thrown a frying pan at her husband (who had done nothing wrong in any interpretation) and shattered his elbow.  The stereotype of domestic abuse is lower class, man beating his wife.  The truth is domestic abuse -- even limiting it to physical abuse, rather than including emotional or psychological abuse -- crosses all socioeconomic lines, and that the abuser may be male or female.



No argument, there. Know some myself.


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## Steve (Aug 29, 2016)

Several unrelated thoughts on this.

First, seems like the problem may span many demographics, but how to address it will vary significantly.  I mean, there are some things that can be done to help women.  I've read many very educational threads on this forum on the subject from people whom I would consider "expert" in the field.

But would you approach helping a man who is in an abusive relationship with a woman in the same way?  Would the same advice, guidance and training help this man?

It also seems like socio-economic factors would impact what training is provided, along with knowing whether drugs/alcohol are involved, if there is are any health issues (physical or mental), whether kids are involved, and a host of other factors.

Second, martial arts training could, I think, help in the moment, when things get physical.  But why isn't anyone talking about self defense training?

Third, I think Tez3's points are spot on with regards to abuse of women by men, and I wish we had a scouting program in my area that was as strong as what they seem to have.  My oldest daughter was a Brownie for a while, and our experience wasn't all that positive.  My youngest daughter joined the Brownies last year, and we'll see how it goes.  Regardless, U agree competely with her points about providing the guidance and mentorship that promotes strong, confident, young women.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 29, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Martial arts training really can't address domestic violence.


i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong,  just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
1...should it ?
2..why doesnt it?
3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 29, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Domestic violence is NOT about violence, it's about power and control


the same can be said for the rapist and often the cereal killer.   both of these i am well versed on. i feel there is a spectrum of violence and the domestic abuser and the cereal rapist and killer are not that far off from each other.  the point of contention with martial arts being of help is that the victim has voluntarily stepped into the predators circle  (albeit unknowingly)  and with any other category it is the predator that stepped into the victims circle.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> 3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?



I don't think it is ignored in martial arts.
Women's Self Defence
Krav Maga teaching Aberdeen women to fight back against violence

These are just two of many I found online.

There is however another issue that is causing a great deal of worry about here, that of honour killings. BBC - Ethics - Honour crimes


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 29, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Best thing to do tell them to call the cops.


from everything i have read and the very little i know.  this does not work and usually makes it worse.
need help from the system as well as abuser

_"He grabbed me by the arm and slammed me so hard against the bathroom sink.....He then proceeded to slam me up against the shower door my head bouncing off the glass......I picked up the only thing that was there, which was a coffee cup and hit him in the face so I could get away from him....
The sheriffs came out and I was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon, which is a felony......my husband had no intention of bailing me out and in fact extended the restraining order another 30 days.......when I was released from jail with no shoes, no wallet and no phone. .......i was trying to find a womens shelter ...I either didn't qualify because I didn't have kids, they where full or because I wasn't in the same county where the incident occurred.....I tried to get a sheriff escort to my home to retrieve the most important things. Like my identity, which included my social security card, resumes, (_she had lost her job because of the abuse and time missed_) contact numbers. My whole life was in a file box. The clothes and all those things where in sequential. However, the sheriffs office stated they did not assist in these matters and that I would have to hire an attorney or a process server. _My spouse told the neighbors that if I didn't have a sheriff escort he would have me arrested on the spot. So at this point I am totally screwed and the only way I could stay and fight my case was to go back to jail._...."_

its not an easy answer.   i can totally understand why people stay in the relationship,  the abuser has overtime set all of the controlling factors in his favor.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> There is however another issue that is causing a great deal of worry about here, that of honour killings. BBC - Ethics - Honour crimes


oh Tez lets not muddy the waters....i can only handle one world problem at a time,,,your going to make my head explode.


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## Steve (Aug 29, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong,  just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
> as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
> 1...should it ?


I think it does in several ways, but it's also a bit of a chicken/egg thing.  Isn't it?  I am speculating, but based upon the various threads here on the subject, and what I've read outside the forums, it seems that people who are in an abusive situation seldom seek martial arts training until AFTER a crisis. 

But if confidence, a sense of self-worth, assertiveness and a belief that one has the strength to change his or her situation, training in a martial art would certainly help with that, I would think.  





> 2..why doesnt it?
> 3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?


I think some aspects are being addressed by some people.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> oh Tez lets not muddy the waters....i can only handle one world problem at a time,,,your going to make my head explode.



*It's domestic violence, make no mistake*. The abusers call it 'honour' killings because they need to justify it. In fact it's no more than the controlling of members of a family or the spouse just as in what is normally called domestic abuse. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a Muslim 'thing' it's not it happens throughout the world in many different communities even yours. It's on the rise in fact both in the UK and the US, though in the UK the victims are usually taken to India or Pakistan to be killed.
The Horror of 'Honor Killings', Even in US


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> *It's domestic violence, make no mistake*. The abusers call it 'honour' killings because they need to justify it. In fact it's no more than the controlling of members of a family or the spouse just as in what is normally called domestic abuse. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a Muslim 'thing' it's not it happens throughout the world in many different communities even yours. It's on the rise in fact both in the UK and the US, though in the UK the victims are usually taken to India or Pakistan to be killed.
> The Horror of 'Honor Killings', Even in US


As much as the women's right people want to call the West a Patriarchy, we need only point to Islam, and say, "There is your Patriarchy". The honor killers are under a lot of pressure to preserve the family name. The West isn't about that.


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## Steve (Aug 29, 2016)

According to the interweb, 20 people are victims of domestic abuse each minute, while an estimate of 12 per year are victims of honor killings in the UK and 20 to 23 in the usa. We are talking about millions vs dozens. 

While certainly an important topic, it is also a bit of a red herring.  Isn't it?


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2016)

Steve said:


> According to the interweb, 20 people are victims of domestic abuse each minute, while an estimate of 12 per year are victims of honor killings in the UK and 20 to 23 in the usa. We are talking about millions vs dozens.
> 
> While certainly an important topic, it is also a bit of a red herring.  Isn't it?


Absolutely not. You are going to be seeing a lot more of it, if we get all those refugees, we keep hearing about. So, it is so much a red herring, but a completely different topic, which isn't about domestic abuse, at all.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

Steve said:


> But would you approach helping a man who is in an abusive relationship with a woman in the same way? Would the same advice, guidance and training help this man?


I have tried the same approach with men who were in similar situations.  Women tend to abuse with words.  In this case the man feels like the verbal abuse isn't enough reason to leave.  Men have the same problem as women in thinking that the behavior is something they can fix or should try to fix.  Men may believe that if they do everything that the woman says then she won't complain or put him down.  This is just what I've experienced with male family members who have been in abusive relationships.  There is always an excuse given for why the woman or man is abusive.  A lot of times it seems that they dig in and resist leaving even more.



Steve said:


> Second, martial arts training could, I think, help in the moment, when things get physical. But why isn't anyone talking about self defense training?


Because of a lot of this is internal.  You only fight back if you think it's your right to fight back.  Abusive relationships often are things that wear down a person so that when it's time fight back the victim believes that they are the cause of the problem and therefore do nothing to defend themselves because in their mind it's their fault, or that the abusive person isn't a bad person. 

A lot of the physical abuse starts by abusing a person from the inside and working their way up to the actual physical abuse.  Think of it like fighting in the ring, even before the physical fight starts there's a mental one that begins. If the person loses the mental battle then its possible that they may lose the physical battle as well.  I've talked my way out of fights simply winning the mental battle first and by making my potential attacker doubt that he can win. No matter how well you know your martial arts, if you are afraid of me and feel that I can hurt you with ease, then you are less likely to fight back.  

A woman or man is more likely to fight back against someone who is a stranger vs someone who has been verbally tearing them down everyday over many months and years.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

honor killings are the worse, because they are born into mind control from day one with the "A woman's place is... "  Honor killers is just an excuse to commit murder.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> honor killings are the worse, because they are born into mind control from day one with the "A woman's place is... "  Honor killers is just an excuse to commit murder.


Islam has duties that each sex is expected to perform in life, yes, but mind control is what all parents perform on their children. The problem is that the parents of Islamic Children are under obligation to hold their children to these standards, and they lose everything if they don't. This worked fine for centuries. Now, the media is luring their children away, and they have a dilemma. They don't call us the great Satan for nothing.


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## Juany118 (Aug 29, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong,  just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
> as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
> 1...should it ?
> 2..why doesnt it?
> 3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?




The main issue is basically operative conditioning.  You could have a champion weight lifter who is a 5th Dan but, often, in a relationship with domestic violence they psychologically do not have the ability to use the strength and/or skill to defend themselves.  There are a whole host of factors that go into it but the short form is that the victim is such situations at some point, somehow, was broken down and built back into a person who accepts the violence and rationalizes it.  I have dealt with couples where the abuser is arrested time and time and time again but years later they are still together.

The first step in dealing with domestic abuse is really trying to intervene in the psychological dynamics between the victim and abuser.  This dynamic doesn't even have to start with the current relationship.  I have dealt with people who leave one abusive relationship and enter another.  It, sadly, becomes their comfort zone.  Until you can intercept that cycle self defense skills don't really come into play.


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## Steve (Aug 29, 2016)

There are about 3.3 million Muslims in the USA right now, and we had a total of 20 to 23 honor killings.  I think this is a serious issue, but we are talking about a handful of people in the country, as opposed to the topic of the OP, which is sadly common in both the USA and abroad.

Even focusing too narrowly on homicide runs the risk of missing the forest for the trees, as for every person who is murdered by a partner, male or female, there are literally thousands who are battered or otherwise abused, who are not killed.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Islam has duties that each sex is expected to perform in life, yes, but mind control is what all parents perform on their children. The problem is that the parents of Islamic Children are under obligation to hold their children to these standards, and they lose everything if they don't. This worked fine for centuries. Now, the media is luring their children away, and they have a dilemma. They don't call us the great Satan for nothing.


Most parents in western countries give their children perspectives in which a child can adopt it as their own or use their parent's erspective to develop their own perspective and views of the world.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Most parents in western countries give their children perspectives in which a child can adopt it as their own or use their parent's erspective to develop their own perspective and views of the world.


Mind control can be called that, I suppose.


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## Juany118 (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Most parents in western countries give their children perspectives in which a child can adopt it as their own or use their parent's erspective to develop their own perspective and views of the world.



I think you give many parents too much credit.  Most that I deal with are, essentially a continuation of their parents who were a continuation of their's etc.  Think of kids as being "Smith 2.0" or 3.0, 4.0 etc.  It takes a strong kid (or exceptional parents giving children freedom) to be different.  If a child grows up in an abusive household they are much more likely to be abused or abusers themselves.  It even goes to things as simple as politics or religion.  If mom and dad share and express and ideology the kids are much more likely to express the same ideology.

That said I have issues with another theme that has cropped up here, seeing certain labels as monolithic.  There is no such thing, on the individual level, as simply "Islam", "Republican", "Christian", "Jew" etc.  Not all Muslims place the sexes in specific "role" boxes, no all Republicans believe in privatizing Social Security, not all Christians are against same sex marriage, not all Jews believe the Torah was written by God.  We enter very dangerous territory when we start seeing such groups as being monolithic.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I think you give many parents too much credit.  Most that I deal with are, essentially a continuation of their parents who were a continuation of their's etc.  Think of kids as being "Smith 2.0" or 3.0, 4.0 etc.  It takes a strong kid (or exceptional parents giving children freedom) to be different.  If a child grows up in an abusive household they are much more likely to be abused or abusers themselves.  It even goes to things as simple as politics or religion.  If mom and dad share and express and ideology the kids are much more likely to express the same ideology.
> 
> That said I have issues with another theme that has cropped up here, seeing certain labels as monolithic.  There is no such thing, on the individual level, as simply "Islam", "Republican", "Christian", "Jew" etc.  Not all Muslims place the sexes in specific "role" boxes, no all Republicans believe in privatizing Social Security, not all Christians are against same sex marriage, not all Jews believe the Torah was written by God.  We enter very dangerous territory when we start seeing such groups as being monolithic.


This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives.  Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different. 
Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience.  Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive.  But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he  beats his wife in front of the child.  The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents.  My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer.  I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.

Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture.  Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

Keep in mind that it's common to have people who were abused to create and support organizations that help abuse victims.  In terms of kids, most will follow the behavior of parents not because they are brainwashed but because that is what they are always seeing.  If parents don't spend time with a child then that child will follow the closet parent figure available.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives.  Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
> Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience.  Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive.  But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he  beats his wife in front of the child.  The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents.  My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer.  I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.
> 
> Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture.  Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.


Unless of course, she does, for her own sake,


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives.  Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
> Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience.  Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive.  But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he  beats his wife in front of the child.  The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents.  My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer.  I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.
> 
> Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture.  Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.


But this speaks to the cycle of abuse. If a parent chooses not to be as harsh as their parents were, they risk creating a monster, and the cycle continues the next generation up.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> But this speaks to the cycle of abuse. If a parent chooses not to be as harsh as their parents were, they risk creating a monster, and the cycle continues the next generation up.


Very true.  Being harsh and abuse are 2 different things.  As an adult many of the things I thought were harsh as a child weren't harsh at all.


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## Juany118 (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives.  Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
> Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience.  Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive.  But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he  beats his wife in front of the child.  The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents.  My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer.  I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.
> 
> Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture.  Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.



On the last part I wasn't referring to you, it was said at one point by someone (paraphrase) "Islam sees..."

As for the first part, the problem is that perspective/perception (psychologically) = reality.  So unless a child has an opportunity to experience different perspectives, in general, the default is what they see at home.  As an example one would expect that children who grow up seeing violence in their home would say "that won't be me" because as a society we see domestic violence as wrong but the statistics show us that such children are actually more likely to grow up to perpetrate some sort of abuse (physical or psychological) or enter relationships where they themselves are abused.  Yes some people can break these cycles, sometimes for good sometimes for ill.  My only point is to say that seems to be the exception more than the rule.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> As much as the women's right people want to call the West a Patriarchy, we need only point to Islam, and say, "There is your Patriarchy". The honor killers are under a lot of pressure to preserve the family name. The West isn't about that.



*Whoa! You are very, very wrong.* It's not an 'Islamic' thing at all. It only stopped being a separate charge which meant you could plead not guilty in Italy in 1981 however these honour killings still happen several times a years. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover.  the   It happens in Christian families, Sikh, Hindu and other non religious homes. That's why I brought it up, it's not something that is happening 'over there somewhere' it's happening around us. Fathers beating daughters up for having the 'wrong' boyfriend...think interracial or inter religious relationships, think of gay people who are beaten up. Domestic abuse under another name.
*No, it's not a Muslim thing, it's not them it's us too.*


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> *Whoa! You are very, very wrong.* It's not an 'Islamic' thing at all. It only stopped being a separate charge which meant you could plead not guilty in Italy in 1981 however these honour killings still happen several times a years. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover.  the   It happens in Christian families, Sikh, Hindu and other non religious homes. That's why I brought it up, it's not something that is happening 'over there somewhere' it's happening around us. Fathers beating daughters up for having the 'wrong' boyfriend...think interracial or inter religious relationships, think of gay people who are beaten up. Domestic abuse under another name.
> *No, it's not a Muslim thing, it's not them it's us too.*



I think people, especially in the US get culture and religion confused.  Often religion is used as an excuse for things that are part of a culture.  Example there are Orthodox Jews who follow similar rules to how a woman should dress and under what circumstances she can be in public as Muslims, it's just that the clothing style is different (more European influenced) so people don't notice it.  A factor in this, I believe, is how the US news sees "Muslim" practices as a topic of interest at the moment where as they will dismiss a domestic related murder by a Christian as "simply" a domestic related incident.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> On the last part I wasn't referring to you, it was said at one point by someone (paraphrase) "Islam sees..."
> 
> As for the first part, the problem is that perspective/perception (psychologically) = reality.  So unless a child has an opportunity to experience different perspectives, in general, the default is what they see at home.  As an example one would expect that children who grow up seeing violence in their home would say "that won't be me" because as a society we see domestic violence as wrong but the statistics show us that such children are actually more likely to grow up to perpetrate some sort of abuse (physical or psychological) or enter relationships where they themselves are abused.  Yes some people can break these cycles, sometimes for good sometimes for ill.  My only point is to say that seems to be the exception more than the rule.


Like you say this is true when no other perspective is presented.  In high school I knew a guy whose dad was a member of the KKK. Not sure what made him talk to me, but one day he told me that that I wasn't like the black people that his dad told him amount.  I don't know how much the new perspective was able to change him but it definitely changed me.  That was almost 30 years ago and I still remember it.  Hopefully him talking to me allowed him to gain a perspective that ended his father's ability to program hate.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I think people, especially in the US get culture and religion confused.  Often religion is used as an excuse for things that are part of a culture.  Example there are Orthodox Jews who follow similar rules to how a woman should dress and under what circumstances she can be in public as Muslims, it's just that the clothing style is different (more European influenced) so people don't notice it.  A factor in this, I believe, is how the US news sees "Muslim" practices as a topic of interest at the moment where as they will dismiss a domestic related murder by a Christian as "simply" a domestic related incident.


US news is a business and they follow stories that get a lot of commentary.  Watch old footage of news from 30 years ago and compare it to what is talked about today.  You will see that Local news for the most part has kept almost the same format but CNN and FOX makes use of commentary news. Local news gets straight to the point. 24 hour news tells a story and shares perspectives which are not representative of the mixture af Americans.  

Now think of what news people from overseas are shown. Local US news or US commentary news like.  Many Americans probably watch more commentary news than local news.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> US news is a business and they follow stories that get a lot of commentary.  Watch old footage of news from 30 years ago and compare it to what is talked about today.  You will see that Local news for the most part has kept almost the same format but CNN and FOX makes use of commentary news. Local news gets straight to the point. 24 hour news tells a story and shares perspectives which are not representative of the mixture af Americans.
> 
> Now think of what news people from overseas are shown. Local US news or US commentary news like.  Many Americans probably watch more commentary news than local news.



I imagine how the news is carried can be quite dangerous in the way it shows certain subjects such as domestic abuse, I suppose if a high profile 'celebrity' case comes up it will be carried but I've seen on social media comments on the Johnny Depp case, so many people seem to have odd ideas about what domestic abuse is as well as what is acceptable and what is not.


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> US news is a business and they follow stories that get a lot of commentary.  Watch old footage of news from 30 years ago and compare it to what is talked about today.  You will see that Local news for the most part has kept almost the same format but CNN and FOX makes use of commentary news. Local news gets straight to the point. 24 hour news tells a story and shares perspectives which are not representative of the mixture af Americans.
> 
> Now think of what news people from overseas are shown. Local US news or US commentary news like.  Many Americans probably watch more commentary news than local news.



Yeah, I think I have a different perspective on many issues because I simply don't watch TV news.  If I am on day shift I listen to NPR for almost the entire shift.  On Overnights it starts with NPR and then rolls into the BBC World Service, via NPR from 12-6am.  I once explained it to a co-worker as "I want to know why the rest of the world actually has an issue with us and you aren't going to get that from a US News Network because Walter Cronkite is dead."


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yeah, I think I have a different perspective on many issues because I simply don't watch TV news.  If I am on day shift I listen to NPR for almost the entire shift.  On Overnights it starts with NPR and then rolls into the BBC World Service, via NPR from 12-6am.  I once explained it to a co-worker as "I want to know why the rest of the world actually has an issue with us and you aren't going to get that from a US News Network because Walter Cronkite is dead."


I like NPR as well. It doesn't have the "drama." or over excitement that comes with other News Network. The hosts often take a reserved tone and allow reporters and guest set the necessary tone. The hosts seem to try to stay neutral which is something that I like, instead of a host that is constantly bashing their perspective and every segment that is shown only reinforces that perspective.


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like NPR as well. It doesn't have the "drama." or over excitement that comes with other News Network. The hosts often take a reserved tone and allow reporters and guest set the necessary tone. The hosts seem to try to stay neutral which is something that I like, instead of a host that is constantly bashing their perspective and every segment that is shown only reinforces that perspective.



Yeah, that and they will try to have not only opposing views but on news stories go deep enough that you can actually make your own opinion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong,  just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
> as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
> 1...should it ?
> 2..why doesnt it?
> 3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?


1. I don't think most instructors have the background and training to deal with DV in any meaningful way. The confidence the student gets from their training may help them get past the issues that keep them in the situation, but I'm not sure MA training (except with a small number of special instructors) can go much beyond that. As you say, in that moment of violence, the MA training can be helpful, excepting that most victims of DV don't take the necessary step of exiting the situation. Often, they don't exit the situation even in the moment of violence. That severely hampers the effectiveness of the physical MA training.
2. see above
3. DV is clearly something most people don't understand and/or feel uncomfortable discussing. So, it gets less attention perhaps than it should. There are groups doing very good work in the area of DV, but they tend to be a bit "below the radar". As for MA, I'm back to my answer to #1.


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## Paul_D (Aug 30, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> last night i happened to find out my aunt who passed away a few years ago was a victim of domestic violence and it was her husband that shot and killed her then turned the gun on himself.
> she was originally married to my uncle but he had passed away of a heart attack back in the 80's she had remarried and the family had lost track of her.  then someone had made contact and her and her new husband started to show up at Christmas family gatherings.  i knew she had passed but i didnt know why or how until last night when i was talking to a cousin.
> as an instructor of self defense i am now wondering how anything i teach could have helped someone in her situation.  at the moment i feel that somehow self defense would not apply to a domestic situation but that just feels wrong and incomplete.  i had a student many years ago when i was a karate teacher that was abused by her husband. we never spoke about it directly but it was known.  she really changed the way i approach self defense and my own path has become more about self defense because of our interactions. but now all these years later i still feel that what i do is still not applicable to a domestic situation.
> am i right ?  how do others feel their martial arts training or teaching applies.


Part of self defence is teaching people to recognise the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship.


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Part of self defence is teaching people to recognise the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship.


Which kata or form or drill teaches that?  I don't mean to sound flippant.  I'm just surprised by how matter of fact you sound, considering you are talking about something I've never heard of being taught in a self defence class.


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## Paul_D (Aug 30, 2016)

Steve said:


> Which kata or form or drill teaches that?


The majority of SD skills are soft skills (Coopers Colour Codes, Target Hardening, Threat & Awareness Evaluation, the list goes on….) rather than hard (physical) skills.  The majority of SD courses completely ignore the soft skills (or skip over them paying little more than lip service) and focus only on the hard skills, in the most part as the courses are run by Martial Artists who only possess the hard skills, and are therefore unable to teach the soft skills.

Think of it like teaching children to cross the road.  You don’t teach them to do a stuntman role over the bonnet of the car once they get hit, instead you teach them the skills to avoid getting hit in the first place.  Same thing here, rather than waiting until your partner starts physically abusing you and then learning a “kata” to stop them, you learn the warning signs of a potentially abusive partner, so you can get out of the relationship before it gets to the stage where you have to defend yourself physically.

If you wish to learn what the warning signs are, then Google is your friend.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> The majority of SD skills are soft skills (Coopers Colour Codes, Target Hardening, Threat & Awareness Evaluation, the list goes on….) rather than hard (physical) skills.  The majority of SD courses completely ignore the soft skills (or skip over them paying little more than lip service) and focus only on the hard skills, in the most part as the courses are run by Martial Artists who only possess the hard skills, and are therefore unable to teach the soft skills.
> 
> Think of it like teaching children to cross the road.  You don’t teach them to do a stuntman role over the bonnet of the car once they get hit, instead you teach them the skills to avoid getting hit in the first place.  Same thing here, rather than waiting until your partner starts physically abusing you and then learning a “kata” to stop them, you learn the warning signs of a potentially abusive partner, so you can get out of the relationship before it gets to the stage where you have to defend yourself physically.
> 
> If you wish to learn what the warning signs are, then Google is your friend.


And most of those soft skills you mention are reasonably weakly related to domestic violence.


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> The majority of SD skills are soft skills (Coopers Colour Codes, Target Hardening, Threat & Awareness Evaluation, the list goes on….) rather than hard (physical) skills.  The majority of SD courses completely ignore the soft skills (or skip over them paying little more than lip service) and focus only on the hard skills, in the most part as the courses are run by Martial Artists who only possess the hard skills, and are therefore unable to teach the soft skills.
> 
> Think of it like teaching children to cross the road.  You don’t teach them to do a stuntman role over the bonnet of the car once they get hit, instead you teach them the skills to avoid getting hit in the first place.  Same thing here, rather than waiting until your partner starts physically abusing you and then learning a “kata” to stop them, you learn the warning signs of a potentially abusive partner, so you can get out of the relationship before it gets to the stage where you have to defend yourself physically.
> 
> If you wish to learn what the warning signs are, then Google is your friend.


Thanks but I guess what I was really asking is, do you think that any self defense programs actually stress skills that you describe as part of self defense?  I am skeptical.


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## Paul_D (Aug 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> And most of those soft skills you mention are reasonably weakly related to domestic violence.


No, they aren't meant to be, they were given as examples that just because you don't learn a skill in a "kata" doesn't mean it's not a SD skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> No, they aren't meant to be, they were given as examples that just because you don't learn a skill in a "kata" doesn't mean it's not a SD skills.


I was referring to your earlier comment that SD training is applicable to DV. 



> Part of self defence is teaching people to recognise the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship.



I don't think it necessarily is. It could be, but a good, well-rounded self-defense training system that covers both soft and hard skills could be quite good without ever being able to get into the dynamics of DV, which is an entirely other area of competency.

As usual, you are insisting on your definition of what is and isn't self-defense training.


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## Paul_D (Aug 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think it necessarily is. It could be, but a good, well-rounded self-defense training system that covers both soft and hard skills could be quite good without ever being able to get into the dynamics of DV, which is an entirely other area of competency.
> 
> As usual, you are insisting on your definition of what is and isn't self-defense training.



It is not my definition, it is my willingness (unlike most male martial artists) to accept the facts that different people are more likely to be the subject of different threats.

The second most common way for women to be killed violently in the UK is for them to be strangled, at home, by someone they know (partner/ex partner).  I don’t see how a SD system can be “well rounded” when it completely ignores one of the most common ways for people to be killed.  You are clearly happy with a system that ignores DV, as that is not your biggest area of concern SD wise.


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## Paul_D (Aug 30, 2016)

Steve said:


> Thanks but I guess what I was really asking is, do you think that any self defense programs actually stress skills that you describe as part of self defense?  I am skeptical.


Ah, ok, in that case I would I say a few yes, but most no.

As most courses are run by men, they often are only able to see violence in terms of the types of violence that they and other men are likely to be the victim of.


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Ah, ok, in that case I would I say a few yes, but most no.
> 
> As most courses are run by men, they often are only able to see violence in terms of the types of violence that they and other men are likely to be the victim of.


I agree with you completely that these skills are Integral self defense skills. And also that They are not commonly taught.  

I've beat my head against the wall trying to suggest that They are not adequately addressed by most "self defense" instructors.


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

Steve said:


> Which kata or form or drill teaches that?  I don't mean to sound flippant.  I'm just surprised by how matter of fact you sound, considering you are talking about something I've never heard of being taught in a self defence class.



It's not only that.  People who end up in abusive relationships see the cues, their friends tell them the cues but either because of early life conditioning them or falling "in love" before the cues become visible they make excuses and rationalize actions.  They blame themselves.

It is a very different dynamic than using observation and other "soft" skills in a typical self defense scenario.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2016)

Hopefully this can provide some insight on the difficulties that people from the outside will have to deal with when dealing with someone who is at a high risk of being in and  staying in a domestic violence environment.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2016)




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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Hopefully this can provide some insight on the difficulties that people from the outside will have to deal with when dealing with someone who is at a high risk of being in and  staying in a domestic violence environment.




The first video is an excellent portrait of how domestic abuse starts.  We have this stereotype in our minds that an abuser is obvious, that right out of the gate they are clearly controlling, threatening etc.  They aren't.  Many are high functioning sociopaths and so can appear charming, cool calm and collected almost at will.  This is actually their most powerful weapon because it's how they can entrap women who otherwise would avoid such relationships like the plague.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The first video is an excellent portrait of how domestic abuse starts.  We have this stereotype in our minds that an abuser is obvious, that right out of the gate they are clearly controlling, threatening etc.  They aren't.  Many are high functioning sociopaths and so can appear charming, cool calm and collected almost at will.  This is actually their most powerful weapon because it's how they can entrap women who otherwise would avoid such relationships like the plague.




This is also why so many victims of abuse stay with their abuser and actually think it's their own fault, that they 'deserve' being abused. They 'know' that if it weren't for them their abuser wouldn't be 'driven' towards this behaviour. It makes it very difficult to prosecute or even get the victim to see things how they really are.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> It is not my definition, it is my willingness (unlike most male martial artists) to accept the facts that different people are more likely to be the subject of different threats.
> 
> The second most common way for women to be killed violently in the UK is for them to be strangled, at home, by someone they know (partner/ex partner).  I don’t see how a SD system can be “well rounded” when it completely ignores one of the most common ways for people to be killed.  You are clearly happy with a system that ignores DV, as that is not your biggest area of concern SD wise.


I"m happy with any approach that helps people. Asking someone to be competent at dealing with DV before they can help people with other SD issues is like asking that all grade-school biology teachers be capable of performing veterinary surgery. It might make them better at teaching biology, and would certainly give them additional insights, but you'd lose the advantage of being able to generate enough good teachers.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Ah, ok, in that case I would I say a few yes, but most no.
> 
> As most courses are run by men, they often are only able to see violence in terms of the types of violence that they and other men are likely to be the victim of.


That's a pretty sexist viewpoint you are expressing. According to you, men don't think about women when we think about people? Every male SD instructor I know addresses types of violence that are far more likely to occur to women.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The first video is an excellent portrait of how domestic abuse starts.  We have this stereotype in our minds that an abuser is obvious, that right out of the gate they are clearly controlling, threatening etc.  They aren't.  Many are high functioning sociopaths and so can appear charming, cool calm and collected almost at will.  This is actually their most powerful weapon because it's how they can entrap women who otherwise would avoid such relationships like the plague.


And this is what Paul is claiming every self-respecting SD instructor must be able to teach people about.


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## Paul_D (Aug 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> And this is what Paul is claiming every self-respecting SD instructor must be able to teach people about.


I don't recall saying "must".


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I don't recall saying "must".


Look at the tenor of your own postings, Paul. You've made it plain that you don't consider it ethical for someone to consider their SD program effective unless it also addresses these issues, which are difficult even for people who ONLY address these issues. Let's not ask the family doctor to be competent at neurology.


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## Juany118 (Aug 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I"m happy with any approach that helps people. Asking someone to be competent at dealing with DV before they can help people with other SD issues is like asking that all grade-school biology teachers be capable of performing veterinary surgery. It might make them better at teaching biology, and would certainly give them additional insights, but you'd lose the advantage of being able to generate enough good teachers.



I find the analogy off but only because it assumes the two are equally straight forward, they aren't.  Domestic abusers are not usually obvious until you are in too deep.  Once the victim is in that deep they are either convinced it is "their fault" somehow because they have been subtley manipulated psychologically for so long and/or they are trapped financially.  I just had a case regarding the later recently.  No family in State (that will accept her) the local Domestic Violence assistance groups are out of money, the local women/family shelter is full, she is a stay at home Mom and her husband pays all the bills.  Where does she go?  On the streets with her children?  Anyone who compares DV training and SD training (not you) simply has little clue as to how deep the dynamics go.


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## Juany118 (Aug 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Look at the tenor of your own postings, Paul. You've made it plain that you don't consider it ethical for someone to consider their SD program effective unless it also addresses these issues, which are difficult even for people who ONLY address these issues. Let's not ask the family doctor to be competent at neurology.



This is a MUCH better analogy. 

Like I said previously, one of best friends is a lady who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a Director at the local Mental Health Provider, contracted to be a PD's social worker, runs a batterer's program and created a domestic violence protocol that she was invited to return to her University to teach and is being adopted by numerous counties.  She spent 10 years in an abusive relationship (largely emotional and financial) even though she is literally an expert on the topic.  She didn't get out until 1. she started getting therapy herself and 2. she finally "came out" about the issue to myself and two other very close friends so we could give her continuous support and affirmation.  Her family didn't even know about it until months after she walked out on him BUT only because they kept asking "why don't you try to make it work?!?!?!  He is such a nice guy!!!!!!"


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> This is a MUCH better analogy.
> 
> Like I said previously, one of best friends is a lady who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a Director at the local Mental Health Provider, contracted to be a PD's social worker, runs a batterer's program and created a domestic violence protocol that she was invited to return to her University to teach and is being adopted by numerous counties.  She spent 10 years in an abusive relationship (largely emotional and financial) even though she is literally an expert on the topic.  She didn't get out until 1. she started getting therapy herself and 2. she finally "came out" about the issue to myself and two other very close friends.  Her family didn't even know about it until months after she walked out on him BUT only because they kept asking "why don't you try to make it work?!?!?!  He is such a nice guy!!!!!!"


This analogy followed a cup of coffee.

And this is precisely the issue. DV has two ends to it: pre-violence (truly, pre-relationship) and during the period of violence. Pre-violence, we'd have to teach them how to recognize a potential abuser. I'm sure there are some signs, but most of the information I've found for public consumption is far too generic, and often actually ill-informed. During the abuse, physical SD training may help them avoid the worst of the physical injuries, but it takes a LOT more than that to help them exit the situation. Even ignoring the situations like the one mentioned earlier where the woman has no place to go, it takes a lot to help them understand the situation in reality (rather than through the adopted filter that creates the self-blame). That's work for a therapist, and not something most instructors should be expected to be competent in.

Should instructors learn to recognize signs of an abusive relationship? That's probably a reasonable expectation. We could provide supportive environments and perhaps be ready to refer to someone competent to help.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2016)

I kind of wish some of those who have some personal experience in this area would post.  We have some knowledgeable posters and real advocates for women who are members.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> I kind of wish some of those who have some personal experience in this area would post.  We have some knowledgeable posters and real advocates for women who are members.


Agreed. I've studied psychology most of my life, and have dug into areas like this a bit, but that means I have just enough information to know how much more there is to know before what I know is very useful. I'm much better equipped to help with depression, suicide, and balancing your values in your life. That and hitting people with a planet; I'm equipped for that, too.


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## Juany118 (Aug 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> I kind of wish some of those who have some personal experience in this area would post.  We have some knowledgeable posters and real advocates for women who are members.



Yeah, the extent of my training is to identify the dynamics at play so I can direct them to the right assistance.  In terms of direct intervention it's limited to arrest and, if necessary, Crisis Intervention in the event the incident results in a mental health crisis.  So basically I do triage and stabilize the "patient" until they can get to more in depth treatment.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2016)

A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.


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## Juany118 (Sep 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.


It's not food for thought, it's truth.  Sorry, No going into details but I have three best friends. First my wife, second and third tied, two other women. Call me weird and my wife's a saint that my BFFs can be women but your link is truth because they told me what they went through and then I have confirmation on a regular basis at work.  Sorry but maudlin this eve and tired of the few here that thinks there is an easy solution because they are clueless.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2016)

I dangle the words' food for thought' because there are many,  actually very lucky people, who don't know what violence is actually like. I've never been attacked by anyone outside of doing my job and those type of things were because of the job not personally directed at me because I'm female. Many others have also not been attacked nor have they experienced violence so their knowledge is hypothetical, learnt from instructors who have also not faced violence for real. 
There's never easy answers for many things that people assume can be sorted by 'making it illegal' or the 'government should do something about it', everything from helping refugees to getting ex service people off the street. The latter is a 'hot' subject here, most think it's a case of  'the government' just giving them a flat or house but it's a complicated subject due to the mental state of many of those on the street. Alcoholism, PTSD etc complicate them keeping homes so another subject many know nothing about but think they do.
However it's just more depressing stuff, we do the best we can and it more often than not does more good than we actually know.


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## Paul_D (Sep 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Look at the tenor of your own postings, Paul. You've made it plain that you don't consider it ethical for someone to consider their SD program effective unless it also addresses these issues, which are difficult even for people who ONLY address these issues. Let's not ask the family doctor to be competent at neurology.


You are reading far too much into (and totally misinterpreting) what I said.

All I said was of part of self defence is learning to recognise the warning signs of an abusive relationship.  I also said I believed people should teach, after all they address the threats faced by their male SD students, so why shouldn’t they address one of the biggest threats to their female students?  However, at no point did I say they "must" teach it, nor at any stage did I say a system was "unethical" or derided it's "effectiveness" if instructors chose not to address that area of self defence.

Please feel free to keep making up your own versions of my posts though, clearly it keeps you entertained if nothing else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> You are reading far too much into (and totally misinterpreting) what I said.
> 
> All I said was of part of self defence is learning to recognise the warning signs of an abusive relationship.  I also said I believed people should teach, after all they address the threats faced by their male SD students, so why shouldn’t they address one of the biggest threats to their female students?  However, at no point did I say they "must" teach it, nor at any stage did I say a system was "unethical" or derided it's "effectiveness" if instructors chose not to address that area of self defence.
> 
> Please feel free to keep making up your own versions of my posts though, clearly it keeps you entertained if nothing else.


As I said, look at the tenor of your own posts. If people see them as derisive, and you don't intend them as such, that's a communication issue, and can be addressed from both sides.

NOTE: I'm speaking particularly to comments like the "keep making up" that was in this very post. Those things seem difficult to interpret as anything but derisive.


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## aedrasteia (Sep 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A friend of mine, a female MMA fighter posted this on her FB site this morning, it's food for thought. Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.



*Best observations ever*.  My experience and thinking almost  to the letter. I'm sending this to everyone involved
in SD4W and MA4W.  And I hope to hear from our MT friends here (both men and women), on this thread 
and any others.  

I'll have more to say later. I am swamped w/cases of abused people right now.

Tez, please share my gratitude, support and endorsement w/your friend. This is precisely what I would
compose and express if I had the time to organize my thoughts.

The inclusion of Kayla Harrison's experience is compelling and has been on my mind constantly during this
Olympic season. My MA friends (male) are enthusiastic about/interested in her 2nd Gold medal in Judo AND
 either completely  _un_ interested (or uncomfortable to the point of silence)  in discussing her sustained assault/molestation by her Judo coach while she was a national champion. They are *far more* interested in 
discussing her hard MA training under the Pedro coaches (after she disclosed Danny Doyle's grooming,
manipulation and abuse) rather than understand/learn by examining the content AND THE PROCESS of his behavior.

This must be MANDATORY reading for anyone, especially men, thinking of themselves as prepared and capable
of offering SD for Women/Girls, in any context. 

I hope I have the opportunity to contact your friend and let her know personally.
w/respect and gratitude, A


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2016)

2 things that can keep a person from learning the skills and knowledge required to be safe "I will never happen to me" and "If it happens to me, then I can handle it."
These also happen to be 2 of the most common responses I get when trying to get people that I know to take a Martial Arts with a self defense focus or when talking about the possibility of being a victim of an act that from first looks seems unlikely to ever happen.

I think if someone wanted to put together a good Domestic Violence program then they would need to get the input of the person who is the victim and the friends who saw the signs of domestic violence tendencies that the victim ignored.  Reflecting back on the video of the woman who said she didn't realize she was a victim until she was out of the situation, I bet she had a bunch of friends who saw the signs in the early stages.  Friends usually spot the signs of control early on, because their life and interaction with the victim changes drastically.  

This is what many outsiders see when it comes to domestic violence.  The ones in red are the one's that I've seen personally and they are usually low key things that really don't raise an alarm as much as make the friend question "Why is she or he letting that guy control her like that."  
Are you concerned that someone you care about is experiencing abuse? Maybe you’ve noticed some warning signs, including:

Their partner puts them down in front of other people
They are constantly worried about making their partner angry
*They make excuses for their partner’s behavior*
*Their partner is extremely jealous or possessive*
They have unexplained marks or injuries
*They’ve stopped spending time with friends and family*
They are depressed or anxious, or you notice changes in their personality
Source: The National Domestic Violence Hotline |   Help for Friends and Family
Here are some more warning signs
Below is a list of possible signs of abuse. Some of these are illegal. All of them are wrong. You may be abused if your partner:

*Monitors what you're doing all the time*
Unfairly accuses you of being unfaithful all the time
Prevents or discourages you from seeing friends or family
Prevents or discourages you from going to work or school
Gets very angry during and after drinking alcohol or using drugs
Controls how you spend your money
Controls your use of needed medicines
*Decides things for you that you should be allowed to decide (like what to wear or eat)*
Humiliates you in front of others
Destroys your property or things that you care about
Threatens to hurt you, the children, or pets
Hurts you (by hitting, beating, pushing, shoving, punching, slapping, kicking, or biting)
Uses (or threatens to use) a weapon against you
Forces you to have sex against your will
Controls your birth control or insists that you get pregnant
Blames you for his or her violent outbursts
*Threatens to harm himself or herself when upset with you*
Says things like, "If I can't have you then no one can."
Source: Am I being abused? | womenshealth.gov

To me domestic violence victims have the same problem that fighters have.  You really don't have a good idea of the situation until you can see yourself from the outside.  For fighters and athletes in general that would be in the form of a video.  For domestic violence victims that outside view usually comes from friends and family who tell the victim that they have changed and they don't do things like they used to do.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> For domestic violence victims that outside view usually comes from friends and family who tell the victim that they have changed and they don't do things like they used to do



Which is why the abusers cut their partners off from their friends and family, so there is actually no one to tell them is there?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Which is why the abusers cut their partners off from their friends and family, so there is actually no one to tell them is there?


Makes sense the ones who will pick it up early are most likely to be the friends. Especially if the abuser gives certain looks to those he sees as a threat. The types of looks he gives when his partner isn't aware.  My daughter's ex boyfriend flexed on me during a cam chat.  My daughter didn't see this jester but I saw it clearly.  He did it knowing that I'm on the other side of the planet.
I'm still debating if I will punch him if I ever see him in person. Maybe I'll abuse him the same way he abused my daughter. 
Good news is that daughter isn't with him anymore but it took her forever to get out of the relationship.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Makes sense the ones who will pick it up early are most likely to be the friends. Especially if the abuser gives certain looks to those he sees as a threat. The types of looks he gives when his partner isn't aware.  My daughter's ex boyfriend flexed on me during a cam chat.  My daughter didn't see this jester but I saw it clearly.  He did it knowing that I'm on the other side of the planet.
> I'm still debating if I will punch him if I ever see him in person. Maybe I'll abuse him the same way he abused my daughter.
> Good news is that daughter isn't with him anymore but it took her forever to get out of the relationship.



Abusers are cleverer than that, they don't glower at people, they are charming, pleasant, witty, they launch a charm offensive at the friends who will then unknowingly gang up with them against their friend. 'Oh gosh you have such a perfect partner, you can't want to leave him', 'he'd never hurt you deliberately, he's such a teddy bear'. It's never as simple as people think.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> 2 things that can keep a person from learning the skills and knowledge required to be safe "I will never happen to me" and "If it happens to me, then I can handle it."
> These also happen to be 2 of the most common responses I get when trying to get people that I know to take a Martial Arts with a self defense focus or when talking about the possibility of being a victim of an act that from first looks seems unlikely to ever happen.
> 
> I think if someone wanted to put together a good Domestic Violence program then they would need to get the input of the person who is the victim and the friends who saw the signs of domestic violence tendencies that the victim ignored.  Reflecting back on the video of the woman who said she didn't realize she was a victim until she was out of the situation, I bet she had a bunch of friends who saw the signs in the early stages.  Friends usually spot the signs of control early on, because their life and interaction with the victim changes drastically.
> ...


One of the hardest parts in this for outside observers is that they may quickly lose contact, taking away the opportunity to spot any but the one potential symptom. And that one (losing contact with friends and family) can happen to anyone in a relationship - we get to spending time with our new love and just don't have as much time to spend with others. So it can be hard for folks to recognize that as a symptom. And then we have to consider the excuses, because some people make REALLY good excuses. They rationalize stuff so well that it actually sounds rational to others, masking many of the other red flags from view.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Abusers are cleverer than that, they don't glower at people, they are charming, pleasant, witty, they launch a charm offensive at the friends who will then unknowingly gang up with them against their friend. 'Oh gosh you have such a perfect partner, you can't want to leave him', 'he'd never hurt you deliberately, he's such a teddy bear'. It's never as simple as people think.


I haven't met ones like that. That I know of.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I haven't met ones like that. *That I know of*.



I've highlighted the key portion.
I've treated literally hundreds of victims of domestic violence. The typical profile for a domestic abuser is very much what Tez3 describes. Especially immediately following an episode of abuse. They are totally charming, which is why the victim becomes involved with them in the first place. Then things build up over time, until the abuser hurts the victim. Then they enter what is called the "honeymoon phase" where they return to being kind, gentle, loving... that's how they convince the victim to stay with them for round 2. Or 3. Or 23.
Let's face it. If they were douchebags from the start, the victims would be far, far, less likely to ever become involved with them in the first place. And without the Honeymoon phase, they'd be far less successful at keeping the victims around.


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## aedrasteia (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I haven't met ones like that. That I know of.



Of course you haven't met "ones like that". You are not the target. You are not the person they have targeted.
Why would you think you are?  The face that abusers wear depends on the person they are presenting to. and the situation.
w/respect, A


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2016)

I've only met a couple who aren't like that. All the others - pretty much spot on Tez's description.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've highlighted the key portion.
> I've treated literally hundreds of victims of domestic violence. The typical profile for a domestic abuser is very much what Tez3 describes. Especially immediately following an episode of abuse. They are totally charming, which is why the victim becomes involved with them in the first place. Then things build up over time, until the abuser hurts the victim. Then they enter what is called the "honeymoon phase" where they return to being kind, gentle, loving... that's how they convince the victim to stay with them for round 2. Or 3. Or 23.
> Let's face it. If they were douchebags from the start, the victims would be far, far, less likely to ever become involved with them in the first place. And without the Honeymoon phase, they'd be far less successful at keeping the victims around.


Yes. And I've forgotten the psychological processes involved, but that honeymoon phase after round 1 creates a false anticipation that things can be in the future as good as they were in the past.


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## Juany118 (Sep 2, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> Of course you haven't met "ones like that". You are not the target. You are not the person they have targeted.
> Why would you think you are?  The face that abusers wear depends on the person they are presenting to. and the situation.
> w/respect, A


Exactly.  Even after the abuse starts, if the police become involved (even making arrests), the victim more often then not will not show up for hearings or, if they do, refuse to testify.  The bail requirements may say "no contact with victim" but we will find them living together again.  Why?  Because the suspect has gone back to being the charming and "lovey dovey" guy he was before.  It's all better they think, he promises not to do it again they say, but then as soon as the hearing is passed, the case dismissed, it's back to the cycle of violence.


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## aedrasteia (Sep 2, 2016)

a POV from an interesting guy.: spoken word.

Home


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2016)

Maybe someone who is "too charming"  or "too perfect" is the first alert sign.  I'll use myself as an example. I feel uneasy with people who are overly friendly in a way that is out of the norm.  Not sure why, but to me that type of behavior is almost like the boy who talks sweet to the puppy just before he kicks the mess out of the puppy.

When people are over charming or too friendly, it begins to feel like a lure to me even if they are good people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Maybe someone who is "too charming"  or "too perfect" is the first alert sign.  I'll use myself as an example. I feel uneasy with people who are overly friendly in a way that is out of the norm.  Not sure why, but to me that type of behavior is almost like the boy who talks sweet to the puppy just before he kicks the mess out of the puppy.
> 
> When people are over charming or too friendly, it begins to feel like a lure to me even if they are good people.


The problem is they are so difficult to differentiate from people who are actually that friendly. I've known people who were genuinely that way, and I've known a couple of people (discovered after the fact) for whom it was that mask that abusers and some sociopaths wear.


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## Juany118 (Sep 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The problem is they are so difficult to differentiate from people who are actually that friendly. I've known people who were genuinely that way, and I've known a couple of people (discovered after the fact) for whom it was that mask that abusers and some sociopaths wear.



Yeah.  Add to the fact that people that appear to be a caricature of charming behavior are the flip side of the "obviously" controlling and abuse, they are the outliers.

What makes domestic abuse so insidious is the fact that it can be so easily concealed from the outside world.  Heck the people can appear so normal that it is not unusual for friends or family to be in utter disbelief if allegations surface, sometimes to the point that they question the veracity of the victim or even think things like "oh he is so nice, she must have done something heinous for him to be pushed that far."


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2016)

Google the campaign by Sir Patrick Stewart the actor against domestic violence, he's patron of Refuge here, a charity for domestic abuse survivors. He recalls the police when he was a child telling his mother that she must have done something to enrage his father or that it takes two to argue, after police were called when his father was beating his mother up. partners aren't the only ones who suffer the children as he was then do. He's 76 now and it still causes pain. 

People aren't 'too charming' or 'too perfect' they are nice, normal and very good at being that because they believe they are, it's not false, they don't put it on, it's not to hide what they are because this is part of their personality. They also don't believe they are doing anything wrong or that it's their fault. They have a personality disorder and it's rare that they will change.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Google the campaign by Sir Patrick Stewart the actor against domestic violence, he's patron of Refuge here, a charity for domestic abuse survivors. He recalls the police when he was a child telling his mother that she must have done something to enrage his father or that it takes two to argue, after police were called when his father was beating his mother up. partners aren't the only ones who suffer the children as he was then do. He's 76 now and it still causes pain.
> 
> People aren't 'too charming' or 'too perfect' they are nice, normal and very good at being that because they believe they are, it's not false, they don't put it on, it's not to hide what they are because this is part of their personality. They also don't believe they are doing anything wrong or that it's their fault. They have a personality disorder and it's rare that they will change.


Well the only thing that I can think of is what black parents here often tell their children. 

 Don't let anyone disrespect you.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Google the campaign by Sir Patrick Stewart the actor against domestic violence, he's patron of Refuge here, a charity for domestic abuse survivors. He recalls the police when he was a child telling his mother that she must have done something to enrage his father or that it takes two to argue, after police were called when his father was beating his mother up. partners aren't the only ones who suffer the children as he was then do. He's 76 now and it still causes pain.
> 
> People aren't 'too charming' or 'too perfect' they are nice, normal and very good at being that because they believe they are, it's not false, they don't put it on, it's not to hide what they are because this is part of their personality. They also don't believe they are doing anything wrong or that it's their fault. They have a personality disorder and it's rare that they will change.


Oh, they know they are faking it, but it is all justifiable.


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## Juany118 (Sep 3, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Well the only thing that I can think of is what black parents here often tell their children.
> 
> Don't let anyone disrespect you.



The problem is this.  Abusers are manipulative sons of bitches.  I am not black but where I work it has your typical "small city", largely African American, poor neighborhood.  There you have black women being disrespected because they are under the economic control of their partner.  Or you have the one who is convinced, due to the manipulation of the abuser, that it was their disrespect of their partner that brought the abuse.  Hell after almost 20 years I have talked to more than one black woman and asked "he hon, I've know you all of your adult life, why do you keep having relationships with men who beat you and treat you like crap?  You don't need a man to be a woman.  You deserve better."

It sucks it is horrible and I think you either need to have lived it or see the effects on a regular basis (both options there suck btw) to really understand it.


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## Juany118 (Sep 3, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Oh, they know they are faking it, but it is all justifiable.



Actually a lot of them don't.  The rationalization of the victim "it was my fault" is often shared by the abuser.  They often don't say "this was your fault" as a BS excuse they honestly believe that their partner "pushed them beyond the breaking point."  Few will ever say "i am an $@#hole, I just don't care.


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> Oh, they know they are faking it, but it is all justifiable.



No, they don't, it's part of their personality disorder that they are charming and pleasant. They aren't OTT in their charm, they appear often as pleasant sociable people because that's what part of their personality is, that it changes when with a partner they abuse is also part and parcel of their personality. They have a tremendous sense of entitlement and often life they think conspires against them so that any failures are never their fault but they've been dragged down usually by their partner. They will often genuinely decry domestic violence, bullying etc because they don't see that is what they do. They also have an instinct almost about weaknesses in other people which they exploit, this is one reason we need to bring up children to be strong, well rounded people without lack of self esteem and with no self confidence issues. People basically who are happy and confident in themselves and are not fodder for the abusers.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No, they don't, it's part of their personality disorder that they are charming and pleasant. They aren't OTT in their charm, they appear often as pleasant sociable people because that's what part of their personality is, that it changes when with a partner they abuse is also part and parcel of their personality. They have a tremendous sense of entitlement and often life they think conspires against them so that any failures are never their fault but they've been dragged down usually by their partner. They will often genuinely decry domestic violence, bullying etc because they don't see that is what they do. They also have an instinct almost about weaknesses in other people which they exploit, this is one reason we need to bring up children to be strong, well rounded people without lack of self esteem and with no self confidence issues. People basically who are happy and confident in themselves and are not fodder for the abusers.


This is accurate. When I speak of the mask that sociopaths and abusers sometimes wear, it's not a false part of them. It's just a different face of the same person. They have a "nice guy" mask (or face) that they normally wear. They have their "abuser" mask (or face) that they wear when they abuse. Both are the same person, and they are nothing alike.


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> This is accurate. When I speak of the mask that sociopaths and abusers sometimes wear, it's not a false part of them. It's just a different face of the same person. They have a "nice guy" mask (or face) that they normally wear. They have their "abuser" mask (or face) that they wear when they abuse. Both are the same person, and they are nothing alike.



That's why they are so convincing when they tell you they haven't done anything wrong, because to them they really haven't.
In some cultures, beating your wife is expected by everyone even women, wives as property is 'normal', wives having value less than farming livestock is also 'normal', this is something that needs to be changed, we haven't left that state long ourselves in the west that we can afford to be superior. A concerted effort to deal with violence needs to be undertaken by society, it won't happen in my lifetime I know but I hope all the same and do my bit.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 3, 2016)

every cereal killer believes that what they have done is justified.


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## Steve (Sep 3, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> every cereal killer believes that what they have done is justified.


I killed my Cheerios this morning, and it was completely justified.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 3, 2016)

serial serial  serial.....


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 3, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> View attachment 20115
> 
> serial serial  serial.....


I have been counting. This is your second offense.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 3, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The problem is this.  Abusers are manipulative sons of bitches.  I am not black but where I work it has your typical "small city", largely African American, poor neighborhood.  There you have black women being disrespected because they are under the economic control of their partner.  Or you have the one who is convinced, due to the manipulation of the abuser, that it was their disrespect of their partner that brought the abuse.  Hell after almost 20 years I have talked to more than one black woman and asked "he hon, I've know you all of your adult life, why do you keep having relationships with men who beat you and treat you like crap?  You don't need a man to be a woman.  You deserve better."
> 
> It sucks it is horrible and I think you either need to have lived it or see the effects on a regular basis (both options there suck btw) to really understand it.


Unfortunately not everyone listens to the lecture about not letting anyone disrespect them.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 3, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> View attachment 20115
> 
> serial serial  serial.....


I like the cereal version better that's why I didn't say anything lol.


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## Tez3 (Sep 4, 2016)

So glad you guys find this amusing. I think I'm done here.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 9, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> last night i happened to find out my aunt who passed away a few years ago was a victim of domestic violence and it was her husband that shot and killed her then turned the gun on himself.
> she was originally married to my uncle but he had passed away of a heart attack back in the 80's she had remarried and the family had lost track of her.  then someone had made contact and her and her new husband started to show up at Christmas family gatherings.  i knew she had passed but i didnt know why or how until last night when i was talking to a cousin.
> as an instructor of self defense i am now wondering how anything i teach could have helped someone in her situation.  at the moment i feel that somehow self defense would not apply to a domestic situation but that just feels wrong and incomplete.  i had a student many years ago when i was a karate teacher that was abused by her husband. we never spoke about it directly but it was known.  she really changed the way i approach self defense and my own path has become more about self defense because of our interactions. but now all these years later i still feel that what i do is still not applicable to a domestic situation.
> am i right ?  how do others feel their martial arts training or teaching applies.


 

I have thought about this myself, about teaching a free class to women who were victims of domestic violence. The reason is because most DV victims lack self-confidence. Martial arts helped ME gain confidence, so therefore I figured it could help someone else. However, there are so many facets to it that I still haven't wrapped my head around it.

Imagine this scenario: a woman lives with an abusive man. After a while, she trains to the point where she can defend herself. The abusive man comes at her one night, and she hits him. What happens next? He gets angrier, and things could escalate to a lethal level.

The main problem that I have seen faced by far too many DV victims is they have nowhere to go. Sometimes it may be because they have children, and no one would take the victim AND their kids in. Other times it is because the abuser has made them feel so worthless ("no one would want you...no one likes you") that they may BELIEVE they have nowhere to go, even if they do.

Certainly not a black and white issue, for sure.


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## Juany118 (Sep 9, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I have thought about this myself, about teaching a free class to women who were victims of domestic violence. The reason is because most DV victims lack self-confidence. Martial arts helped ME gain confidence, so therefore I figured it could help someone else. However, there are so many facets to it that I still haven't wrapped my head around it.
> 
> Imagine this scenario: a woman lives with an abusive man. After a while, she trains to the point where she can defend herself. The abusive man comes at her one night, and she hits him. What happens next? He gets angrier, and things could escalate to a lethal level.
> 
> ...



The problem is that the confidence born of martial arts needs to learned proactively.  If the person is already in an abusive relationship, especially if it has been for some time, they could become a true master of a Martial art but they would not be in the psychological position to use those skills against the abuser.  The amount of support and counseling needed to get someone fully out of the grasp of such a person can be pretty stark.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 9, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The problem is that the confidence born of martial arts needs to learned proactively.  If the person is already in an abusive relationship, especially if it has been for some time, they could become a true master of a Martial art but they would not be in the psychological position to use those skills against the abuser.  The amount of support and counseling needed to get someone fully out of the grasp of such a person can be pretty stark.


 
Right. Like I said above, this is not a black and white issue. There are so many facets to it that it boggles my mind. Most people think it's as simple as, "Well if the woman didn't like getting beat up, why would she stay with him???" There is such gross ignorance when it comes to the topic of DV.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I have thought about this myself, about teaching a free class to women who were victims of domestic violence. The reason is because most DV victims lack self-confidence. Martial arts helped ME gain confidence, so therefore I figured it could help someone else. However, there are so many facets to it that I still haven't wrapped my head around it.
> 
> Imagine this scenario: a woman lives with an abusive man. After a while, she trains to the point where she can defend herself. The abusive man comes at her one night, and she hits him. What happens next? He gets angrier, and things could escalate to a lethal level.
> 
> ...


I agree. I've considered working with someone who has a strong background with abused women to develop something appropriate for them, but I'd teach it after they have gotten out of that relationship, not during it, as a way to develop their self-esteem and help them feel safer (and in this case, the feeling would be important).


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2016)

I don't know.  It seems reasonable that if a person is looking for physical fighting skills while in an abusive relationshsip, they are demonstrating a desire to leave and are looking for empowerment to do so.


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## Juany118 (Sep 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> I don't know.  It seems reasonable that if a person is looking for physical fighting skills while in an abusive relationshsip, they are demonstrating a desire to leave and are looking for empowerment to do so.



A heroin junkie can start looking for outpatient rehab programs too.  How many of those succeed?  The dynamics are very complicated Why Women Stay: The Paradox of Abusive Relationships

So even if the abuser lets their partner study martial arts outside the home, once back inside the home the cycle continues.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2016)

I'm thinking a person can learn how to leave a bad relationship faster than they can learn the skills to physically fight the person that they are intimidated by or fear.

I say this because I think of all the Martial Artist out there that can't use their Martial Arts to protect themselves.  I'm thinking of myself and how long it has taken me to just learn how to apply some of the simple Jow Ga techniques effectively in free sparring.  If I was a woman getting physically abused by my husband then it would take me 2 years of going to class almost every class (5 days a week), an instructor willing to teach me the fighting side of using the techniques, and my own ability to either learn and understand the techniques.  On top of that.  It's guaranteed that any physical abuse by the husband is going to prevent me from going to the class as I try to hide the bruises. 

I personally have never met a woman who was physically abused by her husband who was more interested in fighting back than getting out of the relationship.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> A heroin junkie can start looking for outpatient rehab programs too.  How many of those succeed?  The dynamics are very complicated Why Women Stay: The Paradox of Abusive Relationships
> 
> So even if the abuser lets their partner study martial arts outside the home, once back inside the home the cycle continues.


 Outpatient rehab programs often don't lead to long term sobriety, but they do demonstrate a desire on the part of the heroin addict to become sober, can connect the addict to services and can lead to inpatient treatment.


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## Juany118 (Sep 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Outpatient rehab programs often don't lead to long term sobriety, but they do demonstrate a desire on the part of the heroin addict to become sober, can connect the addict to services and can lead to inpatient treatment.



yes but there you KNOW the person coming in is an addict.  Someone is not going to be signing up for a MA class saying "I am taking this class because my boyfriend beats me."  As such you do not know the person needs such help and so do not know to connect them to the services that could really help.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2016)

Look dude.  Its yiur faulty analogy.  Don't bring it up and then tell me it's not the same.


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## Juany118 (Sep 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Look dude.  Its yiur faulty analogy.  Don't bring it up and then tell me it's not the same.



I linked the article so I didn't have to explain the post you just responded to. So the analogy isn't faulty I will assume you didn't read the article in total because the article explains the addiction angle (using gambling addiction) and the secretiveness of the victims as well.  I figured "why write a paragraph when link cut and paste does the job for me."  Obviously such a logical train of thought was wrong on my part.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2016)

For pete's sake.  You're smart and I'm dumb.  Please explain your point in simple terms for me, as I clearly don't see the correlation. 

My single point here is that it isn't unreasonable for a person who is in an abusive relationship AND who seeks out martial arts skills is looking for help.  And also, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that training in martial arts, including the self confidence that can be built, can lead a person in the right direction. 

The confidence doesn't need to be instilled proactively.  It can be instilled concurrently.


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## Juany118 (Sep 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> For pete's sake.  You're smart and I'm dumb.  Please explain your point in simple terms for me, as I clearly don't see the correlation.
> 
> My single point here is that it isn't unreasonable for a person who is in an abusive relationship AND who seeks out martial arts skills is looking for help.  And also, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that training in martial arts, including the self confidence that can be built, can lead a person in the right direction.
> 
> The confidence doesn't need to be instilled proactively.  It can be instilled concurrently.



You are far from dumb from your posts.  I am just on a new "kick" to avoid my typical walls of text.

1. if they are in an abusive relationship the MA training alone will be of little help due to the dynamics of such a relationship because the psychological dynamics will make it so the skills are seldom, if ever, used.
2. They don't advertise they are in an abusive relationship in such a setting.  Hell a majority of the domestic assaults I respond to are third party calls.  This begs the question how do you identify the victims in your class you should be encouraging to go to the counseling and support they need to get out.

Once you are "hip deep" in a relationship like that you are rationalizing that it's often your fault.  You get off on the highs when it's "lovey dovey" and ignore the abusive times like one addicted to the win>loss dynamic of gambling addiction.  It is a sad and complicated mess that you would have to write paragraphs to explain and that is why I am linking articles vs writing myself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> I don't know.  It seems reasonable that if a person is looking for physical fighting skills while in an abusive relationshsip, they are demonstrating a desire to leave and are looking for empowerment to do so.


If they are looking for physical fighting skills rather than a shelter or some other way out, I don't see a cue they're thinking of leaving. Perhaps they are thinking of surviving the next time? Perhaps they are thinking of stopping it (that is unlikely to work unless she kills him).

It does show a change from a passive "it's my fault" acceptance, so maybe it is a first step toward leaving. From what I know of the psychology involved, it seems unlikely a victim of DV would seek physical fighting skill as a solution.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 21, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> If they are looking for physical fighting skills rather than a shelter or some other way out, I don't see a cue they're thinking of leaving. Perhaps they are thinking of surviving the next time? Perhaps they are thinking of stopping it (that is unlikely to work unless she kills him).
> 
> It does show a change from a passive "it's my fault" acceptance, so maybe it is a first step toward leaving. From what I know of the psychology involved, it seems unlikely a victim of DV would seek physical fighting skill as a solution.


 

I think the desire to leave is indeed starting to bloom. It would be useful for a DV victim to know self-defense in case they wind up with yet another abusive partner if/when they move on from the current one. (In such cases, history can and often does repeat itself. I know DV victims who moved from one abuser to another for a long time. One can only hope this would be the first step in the right direction.)


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## Tez3 (Sep 21, 2016)

I've known women with black belts, who can fight very well, have excellent martial arts skills and I would pity any attacker who tried it on with them YET they have been unable to 'defend' themselves from abusive partners. The problem isn't a physical one it's a psychological one.

However some good news from UK policing. Police train to spot coercive or controlling behaviour - BBC News


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 22, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I think the desire to leave is indeed starting to bloom. It would be useful for a DV victim to know self-defense in case they wind up with yet another abusive partner if/when they move on from the current one. (In such cases, history can and often does repeat itself. I know DV victims who moved from one abuser to another for a long time. One can only hope this would be the first step in the right direction.)


I would expect this attempt to survive the next one to happen between abusers, because of the self-accusing mentality that happens during the abuse cycle.


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## Ademadis (Sep 23, 2016)

This has been a really interesting thread to read through.

There's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said, domestic abuse is a horrible and inherently psychological problem that has to be dealt with carefully. There are so many alternating circumstances to each case and as such it's impossible to pin one thing (martial arts) as the catch all will/will-never work solution.

However, there's a lot of mysticism surrounding the 'holiness of relationships' that I feel the world could really do without. Relationships are inherently selfish; you want to be with another person because it betters your own life. I know a lot of people who see being single as just waiting for the next relationship, and they see couples as the successful pot. If we swept away with all of that, perhaps that's one less consideration for a victim of domestic abuse. They don't need to think they've failed if they leave the relationship, they haven't.
_
(Obviously I'm not a fan of true/instant love , though I do believe in lasting love.)_


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> This has been a really interesting thread to read through.
> 
> There's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said, domestic abuse is a horrible and inherently psychological problem that has to be dealt with carefully. There are so many alternating circumstances to each case and as such it's impossible to pin one thing (martial arts) as the catch all will/will-never work solution.
> 
> ...


 
Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth, then they wouldn't need to be in a relationship to feel like they deserved to even be alive. For some people, the issue is unbelievably bad. I know a young woman from my last job who was on Facebook saying she needed a boyfriend only a week after breaking up with her previous one.

I said, "Didn't you just break up with So-and-So?"

She said, "I know. I just don't like being single."

I said, "What??? So you dislike being single so bad that you will be with ANYONE just to not be single?"

There was a pause, and then I said, "You free Friday night?"

Anyway, the core issue is their self-esteem. When a person has healthy self-esteem, they can be fine on their own. And they know for DAMN SURE that if they are with someone who hits them, that they don't deserve it nor did they bring it on themselves.

Having a healthy sense of self-esteem is one of the most important things in the world. That is why I worship the writings and methods of Nathaniel Branden.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth, then they wouldn't need to be in a relationship to feel like they deserved to even be alive.



Are you victim blaming here?
I don't think you understand the methodology of the abusers, they use psychological bullying to break down the self esteem and confidence of their victims, in fact for many abusers that's the point of their abuse, to break people. many of these relationships start off seeming fine and it's over time, like brain washing in fact, that the abuser takes control and undermines at first then feeds off his 'power' of making his victim suffer. We aren't talking the old Friday night bash your missus situation here.
Yes there are some people who would rather be with the wrong person than be alone but blaming victims for their own suffering is not really the road to go down, we can all say 'why are they staying' but it's never that easy.
This lass was interviewed on television this week, she said she stayed with her abuser because he threatened her family and was capable to killing her parents. You can clearly see what he is capable of, he even threatened her while he was in prison.
Acid attack victim Adele Bellis 'felt face melting' - BBC News

As you can see as well an expert said that victims tend to have low esteem and confidence but then wouldn't you if you'd just had acid thrown over your face? many victims have been battered into submission, self esteem and confidence doesn't last long in those circumstances and frankly no on even you is immune from being abused, by the time you realise you should be out it's too late.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

No, I never blamed the victim. All I said is if a person has self-esteem, then they would not feel they "deserve it." That's not the same as saying, "It's their fault for staying."


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

I watched my mother get treated like garbage by my stepfather for 10 years before she finally had enough and kicked him out. N matter how people told her he treated her bad. she would not kick him out until some sense of self-worth came bubbling up from inside her that she made that move. Therefore, that illustrates the point that good self-esteem is imperative toward getting a DV victim to realize they deserve better and get out.

Now if the scumbag they are with starts doing things like threatening family/kids/etc., well then that is a situation that obviously goes far beyond a self-esteem issue. That is a "you are dealing with a nutcase" issue.


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## Ademadis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Are you victim blaming here?
> I don't think you understand the methodology of the abusers, they use psychological bullying to break down the self esteem and confidence of their victims, in fact for many abusers that's the point of their abuse, to break people. many of these relationships start off seeming fine and it's over time, like brain washing in fact, that the abuser takes control and undermines at first then feeds off his 'power' of making his victim suffer. We aren't talking the old Friday night bash your missus situation here.
> Yes there are some people who would rather be with the wrong person than be alone but blaming victims for their own suffering is not really the road to go down, we can all say 'why are they staying' but it's never that easy.
> This lass was interviewed on television this week, she said she stayed with her abuser because he threatened her family and was capable to killing her parents. You can clearly see what he is capable of, he even threatened her while he was in prison.
> ...




NONONO We are NOT Victim blaming.

 That is NOT what's being said.

Longer reply inc..


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> NONONO We are NOT Victim blaming.
> 
> That is NOT what's being said.
> 
> Longer reply inc..


 
That post did not mean all of us. It was specifically related to my self-esteem post.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Are you victim blaming here?
> I don't think you understand the methodology of the abusers, they use psychological bullying to break down the self esteem and confidence of their victims, in fact for many abusers that's the point of their abuse, to break people. many of these relationships start off seeming fine and it's over time, like brain washing in fact, that the abuser takes control and undermines at first then feeds off his 'power' of making his victim suffer. We aren't talking the old Friday night bash your missus situation here.
> Yes there are some people who would rather be with the wrong person than be alone but blaming victims for their own suffering is not really the road to go down, we can all say 'why are they staying' but it's never that easy.
> This lass was interviewed on television this week, she said she stayed with her abuser because he threatened her family and was capable to killing her parents. You can clearly see what he is capable of, he even threatened her while he was in prison.
> ...


 
I apologize if my post came off insensitve. Having watched my stepfather tear my mother down (Although he never got physically abusive, thankfully), I am one of the most empathetic people when it comes to the plight of DV victims.

I meant well, although I know that means nothing since perception is everything, and you took it as victim blaming.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> NONONO We are NOT Victim blaming.
> 
> That is NOT what's being said.
> 
> Longer reply inc..



I didn't say YOU were, the tone however of the post I quoted gave the strong impression that he was. It was more than about just relationships he said *'DV victims'* not people getting into relationships that weren't right just because they didn't want to be alone.



wingchun100 said:


> Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. *If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth*,


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I apologize if my post came off insensitve. Having watched my stepfather tear my mother down (Although he never got physically abusive, thankfully), I am one of the most empathetic people when it comes to the plight of DV victims.
> 
> I meant well, although I know that means nothing since perception is everything, and you took it as victim blaming.




I think if you hadn't said 'DV victim' it wouldn't have come across as insensitive.
Was your mother a confident person before she met your step father? Often people are and it's that self confidence and self esteem that some abusers like to destroy, it's not always a case of people looking for any relationship because it's better than being alone.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I didn't say YOU were, the tone however of the post I quoted gave the strong impression that he was. It was more than about just relationships he said *'DV victims'* not people getting into relationships that weren't right just because they didn't want to be alone.


 

I realize what I did wrong now. I mixed the messages of my post by talking about the former coworker who dated just to date someone. All I meant was that if she had better self-esteem, then she would not feel like she HAD to be with someone just to validate herself. However, she was NOT a DV victim. I should have split it into two different posts, because it was about two different things.

One thing was people who serial date because that is the only way they get a sense of self-worth.

The other thing is what this thread is discussing, which of course is victims of DV.


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## Ademadis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Are you victim blaming here?




^Longer reply

What I was relating to is the particular view that people feel they 'have to' make relationships work because society as a whole places large significance on relationships, views on 'Love' and why victims should stay. This does not mean it's the victim's fault for choosing to remain with their respective abuser.

What it does mean is there is significant pressure to endure relationships AS they get worse, which fits entirely with the methodology you specify. People believe relationships are infallible to a certain extent and that once forged they can't be broken. Well people change. And if that was a more accepted viewpoint; that it's completely ok to end a relationship because things have become different, it would also have a positive influence on abusive relationships.

It takes a lot of courage and positive self-esteem to keep yourself safe when you're romancing people, you're deliberately subjecting yourself and your feelings to the influence and manipulation of another person. That's why it's SO important to stress that you need to look after yourself first and foremost as well. But that doesn't mean if the victim doesn't have this self-esteem then it's their fault for not breaking out of the relationship. Sometimes it's down right dangerous and impossible to do so.

It is not the victims fault, it never is and never will be.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think if you hadn't said 'DV victim' it wouldn't have come across as insensitive.
> Was your mother a confident person before she met your step father? Often people are and it's that self confidence and self esteem that some abusers like to destroy, it's not always a case of people looking for any relationship because it's better than being alone.


 
See my follow-up for how I screwed up.

And I was very young when she met my stepfather (only 6), so I have no memories stretching back far enough to let me answer your question. However, based on what I know about DV victims and their abusers, I'd say she must have been not all that confident, and he moved in for the kill.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 23, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Well this goes back to the feeling of self-esteem. If a DV victim had any sense of self-worth, then they wouldn't need to be in a relationship to feel like they deserved to even be alive. For some people, the issue is unbelievably bad. I know a young woman from my last job who was on Facebook saying she needed a boyfriend only a week after breaking up with her previous one.
> 
> I said, "Didn't you just break up with So-and-So?"
> 
> ...


Self-esteem can be a part of the issue, but isn't necessarily a component (at least not initially) in DV. Self-esteem usually drops during the relationship, both because of the situation itself and because of the manipulation of the abuser.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> What I was relating to is the particular view that people feel they 'have to' make relationships work because society as a whole places large significance on relationships, views on 'Love' and why victims should stay.



A good many would disagree with you saying that we are in a 'throwaway' world where relationships are now short because at the first sign of trouble people bail out instead of trying to make the relationship work.
We are in great danger of stereotyping victims here, to paraphrase...happy relationships are more or less the same but ones where there is abuse are each different in their misery. Not all victims are lacking in self esteem, some are intimidated by threats and carried out violence to children and other family members, others have no choice because they are in arranged marriages, yet more have their self esteem and confidence eroded by the abuser, I can go on because we cannot label all abuse victims as being the same and _'if only they had self esteem and confidence they would never have been abused', _it doesn't work that way.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Self-esteem can be a part of the issue, but isn't necessarily a component (at least not initially) in DV. Self-esteem usually drops during the relationship, both because of the situation itself and because of the manipulation of the abuser.


 
Right, and sometimes it unfortunately does not have too far to drop.


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## Ademadis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A good many would disagree with you saying that we are in a 'throwaway' world where relationships are now short because at the first sign of trouble people bail out instead of trying to make the relationship work.
> We are in great danger of stereotyping victims here, to paraphrase...happy relationships are more or less the same but ones where there is abuse are each different in their misery. Not all victims are lacking in self esteem, some are intimidated by threats and carried out violence to children and other family members, others have no choice because they are in arranged marriages, yet more have their self esteem and confidence eroded by the abuser, I can go on because we cannot label all abuse victims as being the same and _'if only they had self esteem and confidence they would never have been abused', _it doesn't work that way.



Again, I completely agree. Self-esteem is only one of many facets that affect the mindset of a victim, and all sides have to be carefully considered when tackling each problem individually.

I personally feel this

_This below is regards to modern relationships in general, not domestic abuse:_
But throwaway is the wrong term to use. Think about it in terms of friends. You have your high school friends you haven't spoken to in a long time, you have old friends that you stopped talking to because you've all changed. You meet new people every day which influence how you act and perceive yourself.
If you strip relationships and romance of their aforementioned mystical status, it's just another form of friendship. An incredibly close and intimate form of friendship. But if people say, leave a childhood sweetheart and head off to university, is it a 'throwaway' to end their long distance relationship because they've become a different person? Moving on is just a part of life to a certain extent.

It doesn't suddenly mean you have to cease all contact with that person because you've broken up with them. And if you both change together without clashing there's no reason to break up.
Long term marriages are a beautiful thing, but just as much as long term friendships. And the two can mix and match imo as people change and grow. It shouldn't be a shame to end a relationship.


Apologies for the rant


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## wingchun100 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A good many would disagree with you saying that we are in a 'throwaway' world where relationships are now short because at the first sign of trouble people bail out instead of trying to make the relationship work.
> We are in great danger of stereotyping victims here, to paraphrase...happy relationships are more or less the same but ones where there is abuse are each different in their misery. Not all victims are lacking in self esteem, some are intimidated by threats and carried out violence to children and other family members, others have no choice because they are in arranged marriages, yet more have their self esteem and confidence eroded by the abuser, I can go on because we cannot label all abuse victims as being the same and _'if only they had self esteem and confidence they would never have been abused', _it doesn't work that way.


 

I never said all victims are lacking in self-esteem. We are talking about various factors. My point was that low self-esteem can contribute. Having had low self-esteem myself, I have stayed in relationships that were emotionally abusive. I felt like I didn't deserve to be treated any better...I felt like I must have done something to make my girlfriend be so super mean and nasty to me, etc.

I know that, comparatively speaking, I had it easier than some DV victims. I never had anyone make threats of harm to myself, my children, or other family members. So I cannot speak to what those victims experience. However, I am living, breathing, walking, talking proof of what emotional/mental abuse can do to someone. In my opinion, I feel if I'd had a healthier sense of self-esteem going into those relationships, then I would have recognized abuse and gotten out sooner.

Then again, that is all Monday morning quarterbacking, isn't it? I guess the only way to tell would be if I got into the same situation now that I DO have a better sense of self-esteem.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Again, I completely agree. Self-esteem is only one of many facets that affect the mindset of a victim, and all sides have to be carefully considered when tackling each problem individually.
> 
> I personally feel this
> 
> ...



I feel you have gone off on a tangent from what I mentioned. I feel people should divorce if they feel the marriage won't work anymore but the 'throwaway' remark is more that many feel marriage is for life and rather than try to work on the relationship and try to make it work people walk away. Many feel divorce is far too easy which means people don't try to make a marriage work and just split up the minute there's difficulties. It's not a case of people growing apart or changing, often it's the opposite, they aren't willing to compromise what they want with what the partner wants and they just split up,  No relationship thrives without some work on both sides.
As someone who has been married over forty years I had to smile at what I think is your just a bit naivety in people's relationships. 'Mystical' they aren't but again like the domestic violence issues, relationships aren't as simple as just being friends, there is a lot more going on in some people's marriage's and relationships. Some long term marriages are just bloody miserable things because it's two people unable to divorce and unable to live together but have to. That's the marriage is for life brigade, some of course stay together for the children, some stay together out of habit, some stay together because one is the other's carer, some do stay together because they want to though.


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## Ademadis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I feel you have gone off on a tangent from what I mentioned. I feel people should divorce if they feel the marriage won't work anymore but the 'throwaway' remark is more that many feel marriage is for life and rather than try to work on the relationship and try to make it work people walk away. Many feel divorce is far too easy which means people don't try to make a marriage work and just split up the minute there's difficulties. It's not a case of people growing apart or changing, often it's the opposite, they aren't willing to compromise what they want with what the partner wants and they just split up,  No relationship thrives without some work on both sides.
> As someone who has been married over forty years I had to smile at what I think is your just a bit naivety in people's relationships. 'Mystical' they aren't but again like the domestic violence issues, relationships aren't as simple as just being friends, there is a lot more going on in some people's marriage's and relationships. Some long term marriages are just bloody miserable things because it's two people unable to divorce and unable to live together but have to. That's the marriage is for life brigade, some of course stay together for the children, some stay together out of habit, some stay together because one is the other's carer, some do stay together because they want to though.



Yeah definitely a bit of a tangent 

How about i clock back in 20 years and let you know how I've done?


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> Yeah definitely a bit of a tangent
> 
> How about i clock back in 20 years and let you know how I've done?



Sadly, I'll probably still be here lol. ( that noise you hear is many people groaning!)


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