# Are there real life applications for the FMA weapons training?



## bart (Jan 12, 2003)

Hey,

I saw this quote on another thread:



> It seems to me that most weapon arts will probably never be used in real life. Not many people walk around with a Katana through their belt loop or a pair of sticks in their pockets.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=75582#post75582

Personally, I see a lot of applications in real life, as people are attack every once in a while with a knife or a stick. I think that FMA weapons training is some of the most realistic and valuable training. What does everybody else think?

The first real life application that comes to mind is use of the baton by LEO's. Any thoughts?


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

Rolled up newspapers, long rulers, tire irons, collapsable batons, machetes, kitchen knives, pencils or pens (in place of a knife), icepicks, screwdrivers, folding fans, telephone receivers, crowbars, ice scrapers...

Just to name a few normal, everyday, household implements that would certainly substitute nicely for a stick or knife...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## lhommedieu (Jan 12, 2003)

canes, walking sticks, hiking staffs, golf clubs, axes, hatchets, pool cues, frying pans...


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

Bart, not quite fair! As you read the thread you know that I was referring to a specific real life (poor choice of words on my part - I was referring to UFC fighting, as is evident from the rest of the post) situation.

But on to your question. I can't imagine many "at hand" weapons that a well trained FMAist couldn't put to devastating use.
As to how often that happens - I'm curious. Imagine a confrontation between 2 men. If one of them is a MAist (hopefully NOT the attacker!) trained in an art that primarily uses ones own body for defense - punching, throwing, locking or whatever. I can easily see that person using his skills without much hesitation. However, it's seems like a whole new ball game for a weapon trained MAist to take up some of the items mentioned and apply their training through them. It seems like and punch in the mouth is a long way from a trained strike from a hatchet.
Do you think that in the average confrontation a FMAist would take up arms or use Their unarmed skills more often?
This is a question, I'm not trying to prove any points!


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## arnisador (Jan 12, 2003)

Being familiar with how a knife or stick could be used against you is the big one to my mind!


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

> Being familiar with how a knife or stick could be used against you is the big one to my mind!


Do you not think that the "basic" knife/cane/gun defences taught at most striking MA schools would account for Joe Blow and his pool cue?
I hope to Christ that if someone takes up a butcher knife against me, their not a FMAist!


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## arnisador (Jan 12, 2003)

Pool cue? Maybe. They've been hit with the like while doing _sanchin_, after all.

Shovel or baseball bat? I'm not so sure.

Knife? Street fighters may well know how to use it. It's likely a box cutter (no deep stabbing) or screwdriver/shank (no deep cutting) but still they may have some tricks, especially if they learned some in a gang or prison. No one wants to face a knife unarmed.


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## bart (Jan 12, 2003)

> Do you not think that the "basic" knife/cane/gun defences taught at most striking MA schools would account for Joe Blow and his pool cue?



For the general run of attacks, yes. But I don't think that the defender would be as comfortable if they had not trained in FMA. There's a great deal of depth to weapons that aren't considered in other arts, most notably, those same basic defenses usually don't deal with a scenario where the person would strike more than once. In the FMA, the dynamics of fighting with a weapon are analyzed to a greater degree and I believe the FMA defenses to be more thought out.




> Imagine a confrontation between 2 men. If one of them is a MAist (hopefully NOT the attacker!) trained in an art that primarily uses ones own body for defense - punching, throwing, locking or whatever. I can easily see that person using his skills without much hesitation. However, it's seems like a whole new ball game for a weapon trained MAist to take up some of the items mentioned and apply their training through them.



I have a healthy respect to empty hand fighting as a WC practitioner originally. But after you do some fighting with a weapon or against armed people, fighting someone who has no weapon is much less daunting, even if you have no weapon. 

The FMA methodology covers lines and angles of attack. The translation from weapons to empty hands is very easy and almost second nature. It would not be a whole new ball game at all, because the angles don't change. 



> Do you think that in the average confrontation a FMAist would take up arms or use Their unarmed skills more often?



The FMAist would use whatever they needed to, fists, feet, knees, elbows, whatever. But if a weapon was available, I think they would be able to seize that advantage more than non-weapon trained MAists. They might even see an armed attacker as an easier fight.


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

By  "whole new ball game", I was referring to the moral judgment and eventual aftermath (legal and physical) of taking a weapon to an unarmed opponent as opposed to responding with a " body only" attack.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 12, 2003)

Many Good Points . . . 


In my opinion and experience, I have used my pen's or screw drivers or bottle or even table butter knife, plus many others. When the other person has a weapon and I used my lanyard with keys as a flail or the screw driver to parry his knife away. I even used a tuna fish can I found in the parking lot as I kicked it stepping into better position, while I was being rushed. All I knew was it was big enough for me to feel mass, so I picked it up and used it.

If you never train for something then you never have the option.

If a person only trains their hands and never their feet, then they will never kick or use their legs for sweeps, etc, ..., .  Yet if they had trained with their feet then they would use both their hands and feet as the occasion requires.

Personally, I think the 'weapon arts' apply. The weapon of choice may differ, and if I cannot pick up the tuna fish can or grab a knife then I will use my hands and feet and even body. Yet, I am still aware of the possibility of a weapon. I assume they have a box cutter or a knife or  pen I cannot see in their hand. And if they do not then their friend does. This is not Paranoia, this recognizing that there is a threat and now trying to deal with it.

As for your legal issue, I was unarmed and there was four of them. I got kicked and hit, yet I did not get cut by the plate glass window we all went through. You see I rolled and they did not. They got cut up mostly by the bouncing glass. Funny thing was that the police wanted to take me in because even though there was four of them I was not visible hurt. So, address the immediate threat, and survive then deal with the situation later.


As for the Weapons Arts  I think this is a misunderstanding. Just Like TKD and TSD are Kicking Arts. Just like CMA is only a hand art and they all know how to heal you when they are done beating you up. Generalizations like these make people who are new to the MAs or new to genre of MA believe things that may not be true.

Just my opinion and experience

:asian:


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## bart (Jan 13, 2003)

> the moral judgment and eventual aftermath (legal and physical) of taking a weapon to an unarmed opponent



I jumped the gun there a bit. But in answer to that, I think that an FMAist has more ability to do different levels of damage with the weapon. Training with a weapon gives you greater ability to manipulate it, thus you are more capable of hitting non lethal targets. Also when you train with a weapon you come to understand just how much damage it can do and become comfortable with it. This is similar to the Wing Chun finger jab. The targets are almost always soft and almost always vital or seriously injuring, but through the course of training you come to know when you'll feel comfortable using it and you can apply it with differing levels of damage.

I know they're cliches, but I think they have truth:



> As for your legal issue, ...address the immediate threat, and survive then deal with the situation later.



* cliche 1:*  It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.



> This is not Paranoia, this recognizing that there is a threat and now trying to deal with it.



* cliche 2: *Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.


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## Yari (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Rolled up newspapers, long rulers, tire irons, collapsable batons, machetes, kitchen knives, pencils or pens (in place of a knife), icepicks, screwdrivers, folding fans, telephone receivers, crowbars, ice scrapers...
> *



If one can use all these things, then you should be able to use your hands too....  


I beleive that this is the strenght behind a strong art. That using a weapon isn't just that, but more in the area of extenting your movement/weight & momentum etc.

/Yari


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## Rocky (Jan 13, 2003)

This thread on all the different weapons available, and weapon or emplty handed, is very interesting. And I think that the one thing that primarily empty hand practionioners don't realize is the benifit you get from training with a weapon that moves much more faster than a punch. It has almost always been my experience after 30 years in the arts that FMA'er while sometimes do get carried away with weapon training and sometimes can come up a little week on empty hand and ground fighting, almost always have better hand eye cordination, and a slight advantage in picking up on quick movements. 

Just my 2 cents

Rocky


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## JMP (Jan 13, 2003)

Hello again

On reading the question on weapons and empty hand training,I would like to say that there is a basic misunderstanding.
We train with sticks, knifes, etc, to help with hand and eye coordination, and distancing. The longer I train the more convinced I am that it is all the same(Remy said same same no matter) what you do with weapons you can do empty handed.
 Some skilled fighters as well as people who have no formal training believe that your weapon is what you are holding in your hand do not make this basic and often unreverseable error, your foe not is just the thing being wheeled at you, deal with the whole situation.
There is always a way.

 Respectfuly

 J.M.P.


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## Guro_Jeff (Jan 14, 2003)

Well taught FMAs teach the practitioners to cover all ranges of combat. In addition, the use of a weapon (be it stick or knife) adds a greater amount of force and speed to any given attack, than an empty hand strike.

If students have ever been struck hard by a stick without protective equipment, or ever cut by a knife, then, empty hand strikes will seem much more manageable by comparison. <grin>

We always say, "if you can see the blade, it's knifework... if you can't see the blade, it's emptyhand."

Hope that helps... I think this is a nice thread.

respects, Guro Jeff

http://www.tribalbladefightingarts.com


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## bart (Jan 14, 2003)

> "if you can see the blade, it's knifework... if you can't see the blade, it's emptyhand."



I like that concept.


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2003)

The idea that the same techniques work with different, or no, weapons is an important aspect of the art to me.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 15, 2003)

Usually, if one of us is having trouble with some empty-hand technique or drill, one of our instructors will simply tell us to pick up a blade.  More often than not, it clears things up.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2003)

Yeah, I love that feeling when you make the connection.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Yeah, I love that feeling when you make the connection. *



What gets me is usually it's something so incredibly simple, you can't see why you couldn't get it the first time.

I can't remember what it was exactly, but this exact circumstance during one of our training sessions had me saying something like "simplicity is complicated".

Cthulhu


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