# Can people in safe jobs be better with weapons than martial artists and violence professionals?



## 7BallZ (Dec 12, 2015)

I'm currently rewatching the anime series Full Metal Alchemist. The most recent episode I finished was about a serial killer who's abducting young girls and slicing them apart, later dumping their bodies in fringe area. Because he lost  family friend in an earlier episode and is trying to avenge her, the protagonist Edwards spends half the episode investigating any leads he can find on the killer. Later an old family friend Winry from his far away home town came to visit him at work but disappears at the last minute. However Edward notices some iffy things about the scene such as footsteps, dropped items (belonging to Winry), and fresh tire tracks. Using these fresh evidence, uses them as a lead and eventually he comes across a butcher shop.

The rest of what happens you can see in this video links. Be sure to watch it because it explains (and forms) a fundamental basis for my question (and so I don't have to type the scene word for word).






Because there are so many lovely things in this scene that I have questions about (and because I see so many parallels to your writings and also to real world violence, I will limit today's question to one. But I will also give a brief summary about both an earlier episode,a brief about Edward, also my feelings on the specific scene above (because its relevant points to my question).

In an earlier episode, Edward was on a train ride to his new home. However Lady Luck did not favor him in this episode and this train was attacked by a bunch of terrorists. After the terrorists took the entire train passengers as hostages,the rest of the episode consists of Edward along with his brother Al fighting back the terrorists and giving control of the ship back to the trainworkers. These terrorists were armed with machine guns and were trained members of a hardened organization. In fact when Edward finally took out the grunts and confronted the mastermind behind the plan, the mastermind revealed himself as a former military who's seen his share of danger in service. Edward engages in a one-on-one battle but Edward eventually wins.

AS you saw in the clip, Edward is a kid so this sounds like utter BS but in the earliest episodes, he was shown along with his brother as taking lessons from a military instructor they hired for training and they are shown  in all sorts of military training from surviving in the wilderness to practising martial arts to PT to learning espionage and how to react to ambushes  as well as perform stealth attack. So being able to take on terrorists who took over a train made complete sense to me when they were still airing this on TV and was fanatically watching it every weekend, not missing a single episode.

However when they reached the Butcher episode, I was like "WTF thats lovely ********!"! Literally not lying if you saw the expression on my face after watching the Barry the Butcher incident you'd think I just saw an Alien running in the streets or I just saw a hot busty girl flash her tits at me.

I was at an utter loss at how Edward-who's not only well-trained in military arts but even took out an entire terrorist group armed to the teeth with machine guns and explosives and lead by an ex-military guy with some experience in real wars- was terrified but more importantly PANICKED at the last moments of Barry's assault. To the point of just sitting there frozen  with his arms held up in a desperate attempt to defend himself from the butcher knife. I was like "come on this guy took on trained terrorists with guns! There's no reason he shuld be so terrified of a cleaver that he's a sitting duck who couldn't fight his way out!"

Just as equally BS to my 13-year old self at the time was the thought of a butcher not only being so quick and ferocious in his attack that he'd nearly overwhelm Edward several points in the fight, but that he can SWING a bladed weapon with such power and technique that can even break apart Edward's defenses (as seen when he got a metallic staff to fight off Butcher Barry).

Especially at the near end when despite Barry losing all composure and deciding to abandon the technique, finesse, and skill he exhibited throughout the whole fight, he decided to just flail his blade random and wild and try to hick his way through Edward's metallic arm (that as you seen in the vid was transformed into a blade as large as Barry's cleaver at the last minute). Despite blocking all of Barry's blow with his metallic turned sword arm, Edward still  got some open and relatively large cuts not just throughout his body but even on his left human arm (which as seen on the last moments of the attack in the video, was not hit by the cleaver- at least on the angle they animated the fight).

I wasn't the only one who thought the scene was utter BS. I remember at school all my classmates who followed this show were agreeing how the writers made up such a BS episode in an otherwise excellent TV show and how someone like Edward who could disarm terrorists and who took military training should not have frozen irl like he did in this specific episode.

However looking back now as I rewatched the series and after reading Marc  MacYoung's books and his NNDS website, I somewhat have an understanding of why Edward freezed as he did (and why the Butcher was so aggressive). But I'm still confused about these things I somewhat have a basic understanding off so I'll ask you them for another time.

But now I have a specific question inspired by Marc MarcYoung's writing that he  did not ever address directly.

I remember MacYoung once mentioned that its farmer classes and other people who worked in manual labor who were most practical about violence as well as most experienced in it. Its this statement that inspired my question along with the Full Metal Alchemist episode.

MacYoung frequently comments about know  in the martial arts, self defense, and military combatives world how people brag about  "OMG deadly killer katanas", "I'm so goooood because I'm a master of Army special forces knife combaties!" and other such expression about how because they own and practise with weapons they are utter badasses that they literally believed that they'd have no problem disarming a mugger or they'd have no problem cracking someone's skull using a Bo staff.

And its not limited to self defense instructors and martial artists too, MarcYoung had criticized people who work in violent professions (police, military, bounty hunting, etc) but are relatively new (as in they're rookies who have barely done one year in their resume) to the job think so high of their ability to use a weapons just from a few jobs they've taken and the training they received.


Indeed whenever a fictional portrayal of someone who doesn't work in violent jobs but does work a job, where tools are utilized, I always hear from  self defense instructors, martial artists, and violence professionals frequently train with and use in their jobs such as a baseball bat, such contempt. To be specific they always make a comment about how such nonviolent people using such tools are  not using the tools properly for fighting when the movie finally gets the working class man into conflict with a criminal syndicate. Comments with contempt like "its not the real way to use a stick in fighting!" or "he's using his slashing technique wrong!" or "he's holding the grip of the baton wrong"  are what I always hear from RBSD instructors, martial artists, and inexperienced violence professional criticize a fictional portrayal in which a farmer defends his family from a burglar or a man who trims animal fur for a living kills a Mafia thug with his animal trimming knife.

One just has to see how self defense instructors who "teach self defense against bats and how to use a bat in self defense" mock baseball players for not "properly hitting with their bats" because they focus too much on training on hitting baseballs rather than real people as an example.

I can't comment for other relatively non-violent professions but as someone who's majoring in culinary and who wants to get into the butcher profession, when I was rewatching the Full Metal Alchemist episode earlier, the moment I saw the pigs who were sliced open and had their organs ripped out in the butcher shop, I was literally like "OMG! Now I understand why the butcher is gonna give Edward a lovely hell of a fight and why Edward froze!" I can tell you from my class lessons about meat cutting that CUTTING an dead animal wide open with a butcher knife is a task that requires immense skill, strength, reflexes, and knowledge of human anatomy. Just removing the internal organs alone is a task that requires such dexterity not even your average professional martial artist and boxer would be able to do it (we're not even going into psychological factors).

So the way he attacked Edward with such ferocity and skill with a cleaver to hack through Ed's makeshit staff finally made sense. Even though the show doesn't portray cutting techniques properly (and I'll also grant Barry was an outraged psycopath so bloodthirsty his swings was not concentrated), I can literally see a trained butcher's finesse as Barry was swinging his cleaver nonstop.

But the episode comes into another point now relating to psychology and violence that only I (as a butcher in training.) noticed. A lot of people in the Full Metal Alchemist fandom unanimously agree that the reason Barry just went berserk and started killing people so easily was because he was initially a decent guy who's probably been facing so much stress from life. Having a nagging housewife is just the straw that broke the camels back and once he killed his wife, many fans theorize he finally lost any sanity he had and just kept on killing and killing to soothe his anguish from his problems in real life.

However fans still were saying its BS that he can be so terrifying enough to freak out Edward (who could already taking on machine-gunned armed terrorists) and keep his cool against attacking someone he knows who's a member of the military (as at this point Edward already was an officer in the Army). "Even if he can kill helpless kidnapped women so easiy, someone like Edward should have made Barry nervous!"

HOWEVER what so many people in the FMA fandom fail to realize is how Barry's occupation DESENSITIZES  the reluctance to commit violence that is such an intrinsic part of modern western society and humanist ethics. In fact I was just watching a video on PETA and animal abuse in the farming and ranching industries in one of my classes last month and one of the things caught on tape was how many workers (especially in slaughterhouses) could easily kill animals so easily without hesitation and how slaughterhouse workers were playing around animals and torturing them in various games before killing them.

In fact studies have shown that people who get involved in slaughterhouse jobs  (even those not killing the animals) and butcher work not only get desensitized about seeing animals get hurt but are even far more aggressive people than most civilians who work in nonviolent jobs to the point studies have shown slaughterhouse workers are known to more likely blow out in public and to use unreasonable  physical violence on others including dangerous targets sucha s police.

There are even several cases in real life of butchers losing it like Barry and starting to murder people (among victims include strong athletic men, police, and even some amateur boxer and martial artists as well as military victims).

The aggression of working in the slaughterhouse and butcher shop is such that companies are now providing psychological counseling to workers and require an annual psychological examining. Some retired butchers and slaughterhouse employees even admit years later they suffer PTSD and have nightmares of killing animals or witnessing animals get their stomach open alive. Which they could not understand because they actually used to play "kill the piggie" as a game where they even waged money on who can kill the most animals within an hour or who  can slice a cow open with the least blood on their clothes, etc.

And there have been ex slaughterhouse workers  and former butchers who admitted that they were so aggressive during their years of working some of them even considered killing people  because they were so used to witnessing violence and because of the stress of their jobs but once they left the meat industry to work at desktop jobs or retired, they lost most such disturbing violent thoughts of considering murder.



So despite how the FMA fandom attributes Barry's breakdown to only his nagging wife but calling BS that Edward is so terrified of his aggressive personality pretty much incorrect and FMA is actually Truth in Television in terms of how Barry is so aggressive that even Edward, a violence professional, was terrified nervous. 

As a butcher-in-training I wasn't surprised at how Barry could swing his knife with such speed and ferocity as though he was a veteran of hacking  of living humans into chunks of pieces and to see his technique quite realistic portrayal of swinging the butcher knife (for an anime series). I wasn't also surprised at his lack of remorse of killing humans because of how in real life a lot of butchers and people working as the "butcher" of the slaughterhouse because of the jobs hardens a person's mind irl and even conditions him to think killing animals and hacking their corpses as "fun".

But it made me curious. I can only comment on butcher work but does the same concept about Barry being skilled with blade techniques and so aggressive- does it apply to other occupations?

I mean I remember the outrage many French military and policemen got when the Battle of Algiers showed uneducated poor peasant farmers sneaking up behind policemen and military personnel on leave and hitting them in vital points with such precision that said soldier and police were killed within seconds. They were calling BS because there is no way peasants who only farmed all their lives could be skilled enough to perform maneuvers taught only to military commandos.

However I have relatives in Algeria who are farmers and ranchers. Parts of the country are soo poor that hunting food is the norm and last time I visited Algeria, my relatives took me along to go on a hunting troop. They not only moved with such silence and quick feet that they quickly caught quick creatures like rabbits within seconds but they also killed the animal alive. At the time I still hadn't taken up culinary as my major and was taking general studies so I was so disgusted at how they killed the rabbit and other creatures they caught alive and I was just shocked at how they could do such killings like its second nature.

In addition they invited me to kill a bird (dn't know the breed but it was around the size of a Turkey/chicken) they caught. I tried to cut its neck but I couldn't make any puncture to slit it. Despite over 10 attempts of trying to swing the blad, not a single cut appeared. Finally one of my relative took the knife I was using and told me "this is how you do it!" and killed the bird within seconds of slitting it throats. I was just so amazed at how he was able to cut the  bird's neck in one strike as though it  was softer than butter. I mean I swore as I was hitting its neck, it was so hard it felt like I was hitting  frozen meat!

So to hear the French police and soldiers get outraged years later was ridiculous. Because I lived with Algerian farmers/ranchers and they are just amazing in their skills to hunt wild game and use their knife to produce food on the table. They may not have formal training but they can use knives on actual living flesh far better than any soldier I know.

So with all this said, I am curious. Can civilians who don't work in violent jobs (police, bounty hunger, criminal syndicate, soldier, RBSD instructor)  have far better skills with weapons than violence professionals and trained martial artists?I put two examples but my experience is limited and I see how violence professionals and martial arts/rbsd instructors bash films for portraying civilians who don't work in dangerous jobs but work in jobs using tools that are similar to weapons such as a knife used to trim horse hair  be just as good in technique as trained martial artists.

I already commented about butchers but how much does this apply to other civilian professions?


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 12, 2015)

What?


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## drop bear (Dec 12, 2015)

To Summarise.

Can you get better at knife fighting by being a butcher than you can by doing knife fighting?

And I think yes.

Can you get flinchy and spazzy by being overwhelmed by a technique or fighting style.

And for me also yes.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 12, 2015)

1st mistake: Anime and concepts of reality don't go well together.  If you are comparing anything in anime with reality then you have to stop right there. Anime isn't real.


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## 7BallZ (Dec 12, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> 1st mistake: Anime and concepts of reality don't go well together.  If you are comparing anything in anime with reality then you have to stop right there. Anime isn't real.



Have you actually read my post? I used FMA as an example because I'm  a butcher in training and the guy trying to kill Elric (the shorter man) in the vid is a butcher.

I used to call BS but after I rewatch Full Metal Alchemist I now realize both the gravity of the situation and its not BS at all that Barry was a terrifying opponent and it makes complete sense his use of a knife was both scary as a love and had such technique.

Because I tell yah cutting animals with a butcher knife ISN'T EASY and requires strength most martial artists lack.

But more to the point that was an example was just an analogy I was trying to use to point out my question.

I also put the Battle of Algiers in which real life French war veterans were criticizing as unrealistic because it shows French cops and troops as getting ambushed and killed within seconds. In particular they criticize how French  soldiers could not spot they were being stalked, how Algerian peasants were moving with such finesse and stealth, and most of all how these same uneducated farmers were hitting vital points with such precision as though they've just graduated commando school.

Well in fact as someone who's lived with Algerian farmers and ranchers for a month, I can tell you outright these guys know how to utilize stealth to catch a fast animal off-guard and their hands are so conditioned with knives they can easily cut through hard uncooked meat like its butter.

Which is why I'm wondering if untrained people who work in safe civilian jobs (that often utilized knives and other tools similar to weapons such as lumberjack who chops trees daily for a living) can be far better with using actual weapons that are designed similar to their tools than soldiers, police, RBSD instructors, and martial artists.

I mean criticizing movies because it shows a construction worker who quickly kills a marine with a hammer  is exactly what I mean when violence professionals scoff at mass media.

Well in fact I have a cousin who works renovating homes and I remember how he quickly took out a MMA fanboy punk with his hammer much faster than the punk could realize a hammer was just swung.


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2015)

Orcophile said:


> Have you actually read my post? I used FMA as an example because I'm  a butcher in training and the guy trying to kill Elric (the shorter man) in the vid is a butcher.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course he read your post that's why there's a sensible answer.

What does 'as scary as a love' mean?

So, training to be a butcher, I know a lass who is a butcher, small girl has no problems due to being taught properly and having good technique.

'Real life veterans' tend to know what they are talking about so unless you were in Algeria at the time I'm guessing you can't express an opinion as to whether they are correct or not.

I can cut through uncooked meat with a sharp knife and that's just for making dinner.

For your information just about any school child can take out an MMA 'fanboy', it means nothing, they don't train martial arts, they just watch UFC on the television. it's nothing to boast about.

What is a violence professional? Have you just made that up?
No offence but I think you need to stop watching films and start training martial arts then after a few years you can start giving informed opinion rather than just tell us how good such and such film was.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 12, 2015)

I have a friend who is a piano player. He would make a great Boston Strangler. I'm just saying.


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## crazydiamond (Dec 13, 2015)

"I remember MacYoung once mentioned that its farmer classes and other people who worked in manual labor who were most practical about violence as well as most experienced in it."

I agree. 

I am sure your aware that FMA with its focus on weapons traces its origins to simple farm folk and their traditional blades used in jungle farming. If your life is swinging a blade 8 -10 hours a day in the fields and farm - from cutting down crops, to butchering animals - your going to have a pretty good "handle" on using a blade.... on a person. The culture of these places is working, living and at times fighting with your blade.

Is this the main point or question?


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2015)

Just a point...I live in a rural community and trust me there's nothing 'simple' about farming people!

There is also a huge difference between swinging a blade around for work and using it on a person, a very different mindset is needed. It's this mind set that will determine whether one is any good at using a blade as a weapon, you can be as strong as the proverbial ox but unless you have the will inside you to use that weapon against a person you won't be any good. Butchering animals is not the same as killing people.


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## Tgace (Dec 13, 2015)

But killing animals is definitely an analouge. Farmers, Hunters etc have been said to have been excellent soldiers/fighters by various historians. For many folks the act of cutting or shooting a living thing is solely theoretical. For others its part of their daily existence.

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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2015)

Tgace said:


> But killing animals is definitely an analouge. Farmers, Hunters etc have been said to have been excellent soldiers/fighters by various historians. For many folks the act of cutting or shooting a living thing is solely theoretical. For others its part of their daily existence.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



They were probably good soldiers because the enemy was the one taking their land and therefore livelihoods! 
The quality of soldiers mostly depends on their training, much like martial arts. Poor training will mean poor soldiers, if you have good instructors you will have good soldiers.


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## Tgace (Dec 13, 2015)

You miss my point. That being that on an individual level (vs the "Big Army" level) farmboys who may have to slaughter livestock and outdoorsmen/hunters come to the job with a level of "killing experience" that others may not.

Killing another mammal has a "jumping the mental hurdle" aspect...criminologists see it when murderers start with animal abuse. 

Not to mention a "hardening" towards being outdoors in all conditions, living off the land, etc.




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## Tgace (Dec 13, 2015)

Our Civil War was not so difficult because the Rebels were so better trained. They had better leadership certainly. And sure they succeed because they were in the defense during most engagements. But many historians believe the Southern Farmboys vs the more Urban Man Union Army played a role in how such an inferiorly equipped and numerically outmatched force was so successful for so long.

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## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2015)

Here's the new word of the day:
*Fiction:*  written stories about people and events that are not real : literature that tells stories which are imagined by the writer
: something that is not true.

Out of all of the real world butchers and the real world history of butchers, the OP picks Anime to reference and I still don't see any real world information posted about Butchers.  No video, no studies, no references. 

Only one person gave a personal experience with farm life


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2015)

Tgace said:


> You miss my point. That being that on an individual level (vs the "Big Army" level) farmboys who may have to slaughter livestock and outdoorsmen/hunters come to the job with a level of "killing experience" that others may not.
> 
> Killing another mammal has a "jumping the mental hurdle" aspect...criminologists see it when murderers start with animal abuse.
> 
> ...



I didn't misunderstand the point at all. In actual fact there's no evidence at all to prove what 'profession' provides the better soldiers. Most murderers don't abuse animals either, that is a different type of person. Killing another mammal doesn't lead people to be able to kill humans any easier than not killing mammals, often it can work the other way, killing animals for food can lead to a greater respect for life.
Historically, most people were 'hardened' to being outdoors and a hard life, even the rich. Today, it doesn't matter whether you are used to living off the land, military training has advanced to the point where they can teach you how to do anything and be good at it, your background doesn't actually matter.


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## Tgace (Dec 13, 2015)

Its not about respect for life its about actual experience killing vs a theoretical one.

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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2015)

I didn't say it was about respect for life. I said that often killing animals often leads to a greater respect for life. A minor point.
When we talk about what makes good soldiers being able to kill animals isn't the first quality that is brought up. A butcher, slaughterer, farmer or hunter doesn't make a better soldier necessarily than a city worker, for one thing animals don't shoot back! A deer stalker/game keeper would possibly make a good sniper but perhaps not a good solider. There are many qualities a soldier needs, being able to kill may not be the first skill they need.
I would find it quite hard to kill an animal but I have no problems with humans.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2015)

Professional butchers often don't kill the meat that they cutting. That animal is dead when it reaches the butcher so in that light there is no experience in killing anything.  It's the hunters that go kill.


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## jks9199 (Dec 13, 2015)

Can someone who uses a tool in their daily life be sufficiently familiar with using that tool to present a formidable opponent?  Of course.  I sure wouldn't want to have to fight someone who swings a machete for hours every day working in fields.  Want to meet someone who's really strong?  Find a mason.  You move bricks around all day, and you develop a lot of strength and skill in using your body efficiently.  But enough to counter a real professional in violence?  (Note, many cops, many bodyguards, many soldiers are NOT professionals in violence.  They're just people who deal with it more often....  Ponder that; I'll return to it momentarily.)  Probably not.

But it's not always skill...
The Samurai and the Tea Master
“Master,” he said, when he had explained his tale, “Teach me to die like a samurai.”

But the master of fencing was a wise man, and he had a great respect for the master of the tea ceremony, so he said, “I will teach you all you require, but first, I ask that you perform the way of the Tea for me one last time.”

The tea master could not refuse this request. As he performed the ceremony, all trace of fear seemed to leave his face. He was serenely concentrated on the simple but beautiful cups and pots, and the delicate aroma of the leaves. There was no room in his mind for anxiety. His thoughts were focused on the ritual.

When the ceremony was complete, the fencing master slapped his thigh and exclaimed with pleasure:

“There you have it. No need to learn anything of the way of death. Your state of mind when you perform the tea ceremony is all that is required. When you see your challenger tomorrow, imagine that you are about to serve tea for him. Salute him courteously, express regret that you could not meet him sooner, take of your coat and fold it as you did just now. Wrap your head in a silken scarf and and do it with the same serenity as you dress for the tea ritual. Draw your sword, and hold it high above your head. Then close your eyes and ready yourself for combat.”

That is exactly what the tea master did when, the following morning, at the crack of dawn he met his opponent. The samurai warrior had been expecting a quivering wreck and he was amazed by the tea master’s presence of mind as he prepared himself for combat. The samurai’s eyes were opened and he saw a different man altogether. He thought he must have fallen victim to some kind of trick or deception, and now it was he who feared for his life. The warrior bowed, asked to be excused for his rude behaviour, and left the place of combat with as much speed and dignity as he could muster.​


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## drop bear (Dec 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's the new word of the day:
> *Fiction:*  written stories about people and events that are not real : literature that tells stories which are imagined by the writer
> : something that is not true.
> 
> ...



The other word would be metaphor


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## drop bear (Dec 13, 2015)

Katherine Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway real world example


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Katherine Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Anyway real world example



More an indictment of her upbringing and mental state than the fact she worked in an abattoir, that just gave her a means. She could have worked anywhere or even not at all and would still have killed.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The other word would be metaphor



*Metaphor:*
: a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar
: an object, activity, or idea that is used as a symbol of something else

1. Nothing about the Anime knife fighting killer Butcher is similar to Butcher's in real life.
2. Nothing about that Anime character is used as a symbol of a real life Butcher.  

From original post
"However looking back now as I rewatched the series and after reading Marc MacYoung's books and his NNDS website, I somewhat have an understanding of why Edward freezed as he did (and why the Butcher was so aggressive)."
1. Edward is not a real person.  Edward's choice of freezing was because the writer decided to make him freeze.  Edward cannot act independently of the writer.  What did Edward do today? Did he see a movie? Did he eat a hamburger? Did Edward breath air today? Did Edward pump real blood through his body?  Edward doesn't exist he's a character that an author made and how he reacts is 100% dependent on how the author thinks he should act.



Orcophile said:


> Especially at the near end when despite Barry losing all composure and deciding to abandon the technique, finesse, and skill he exhibited throughout the whole fight, he decided to just flail his blade random and wild and try to hick his way through Edward's metallic arm (that as you seen in the vid was transformed into a blade as large as Barry's cleaver at the last minute). Despite blocking all of Barry's blow with his metallic turned sword arm, Edward still got some open and relatively large cuts not just throughout his body but even on his left human arm (which as seen on the last moments of the attack in the video, was not hit by the cleaver- at least on the angle they animated the fight).
> 
> I wasn't the only one who thought the scene was utter BS. I remember at school all my classmates who followed this show were agreeing how the writers made up such a BS episode in an otherwise excellent TV show and how someone like Edward who could disarm terrorists and who took military training should not have frozen irl like he did in this specific episode.


 Show me where such a fight happens in real life.   You know what else is BS about fiction?  How King Kong and Godzilla never pooped in the streets. That's BS.  Wild animals that don't poop? That's not real.  Oh wait. That's right. It's fiction so animals like King Kong and Godzilla aren't real and they aren't bound by what's possible in real life.



Orcophile said:


> HOWEVER what so many people in the FMA fandom fail to realize is how Barry's occupation DESENSITIZES the reluctance to commit violence that is such an intrinsic part of modern western society and humanist ethics.


 Once again Barry.  A person that's doesn't exist in real life is being desensitized?  

Then he goes on to explain how this imaginary character displays a role in modern western society and humanist ethnics?  Really?  All of that from an Anime Show? Yet not one real world reference.



Orcophile said:


> So the way he attacked Edward with such ferocity and skill with a cleaver to hack through Ed's makeshit staff finally made sense. Even though the show doesn't portray cutting techniques properly (and I'll also grant Barry was an outraged psycopath so bloodthirsty his swings was not concentrated), I can literally see a trained butcher's finesse as Barry was swinging his cleaver nonstop.


 Really?  he sees a "trained butcher's" finesse in a fictional Anime Character that doesn't exist in the real word.  Show me where a butcher swings his cleaver nonstop? 

Nothing about any of this is metaphor


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2015)

I can't believe that some of you can't tell the difference between made up characters and reality.  When you start talking about you understand how a made up character feels or why they do things in a book, then you need to get yourself checked out.  The only reason a fictional character acts the way that they do is because the author makes them that way.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 13, 2015)

Jumping Jehosaphat. I feel like I'm in a loony bin. I like anime, but you guys know they're not real, don't you?


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 13, 2015)

First, let me congratulate you on such a longwinded, rambling post.  Quite an accomplishment for a thirteen year old.  BTW is that the norm where you live, apprenticing as a butcher at that age?  Of course I am assuming you are a butcher apprentice as you said you were a butcher in training.



Orcophile said:


> ...
> 
> I can't comment for other relatively non-violent professions but as someone who's majoring in culinary and who wants to get into the butcher profession, when I was rewatching the Full Metal Alchemist episode earlier, the moment I saw the pigs who were sliced open and had their organs ripped out in the butcher shop, I was literally like "OMG! Now I understand why the butcher is gonna give Edward a lovely hell of a fight and why Edward froze!" I can tell you from my class lessons about meat cutting that CUTTING an dead animal wide open with a butcher knife is a task that requires immense skill, strength, reflexes, and knowledge of human anatomy. Just removing the internal organs alone is a task that requires such dexterity not even your average professional martial artist and boxer would be able to do it (we're not even going into psychological factors).



I have no idea how you are being taught butchering.  I have watched neighbors do it, and have watched and assisted in human autopsies.  If you are having such trouble with your knives cutting, perhaps you should try knapping flint.  Or, maybe not, as that also requires a lot of skill and practice.  But it will produce razor sharp cutting instruments.  Given a sharp cutting instrument, and a knowledge of anatomy, it is surprisingly easy to remove internal organs, animal or human.  I don't know where you get your ideas, but sorry, not in reality.




Orcophile said:


> As a butcher-in-training I wasn't surprised at how Barry could swing his knife with such speed and ferocity as though he was a veteran of hacking  of living humans into chunks of pieces and to see his technique quite realistic portrayal of swinging the butcher knife (for an anime series). I wasn't also surprised at his lack of remorse of killing humans because of how in real life a lot of butchers and people working as the "butcher" of the slaughterhouse because of the jobs hardens a person's mind irl and even conditions him to think killing animals and hacking their corpses as "fun".



I guess that statement comes from anime? that butchers and slaughterers work together, or maybe that is what is done in your area? The animals were killed in one area, and moved through the plant on rails, and different actions were performed, from skinning to cutting the carcass open, to removing different organs.  I never heard of the mental gymnastics you describe regarding slaughterers or butchers, but perhaps so.  I never worked in a packing plant (what we called "slaughter houses" when I was a kid.  We had two major packing plants, one medium, and one small one where I grew up.  My father was a government meat inspector working in all of those plants on a rotating basis.  He was allowed to take family on tours.




Orcophile said:


> In addition they invited me to kill a bird (dn't know the breed but it was around the size of a Turkey/chicken) they caught. I tried to cut its neck but I couldn't make any puncture to slit it. Despite over 10 attempts of trying to swing the blad, not a single cut appeared. Finally one of my relative took the knife I was using and told me "this is how you do it!" and killed the bird within seconds of slitting it throats. I was just so amazed at how he was able to cut the  bird's neck in one strike as though it  was softer than butter. I mean I swore as I was hitting its neck, it was so hard it felt like I was hitting  frozen meat!



That's a really good story.  Where did you get it?  If It is true, you might want to consider a different profession.  I killed a lot of chickens when I was a kid, and watched cousins, aunts, and uncles, as well as my parents do it.  No such thing ever happened.  Of course we never slit their throats.  We cut off their head, or one cousin would put a piece of wood on the upper neck and quickly pull the legs, severing the upper neck and head from its body.  Sorry, your story simply sounds fabricated. 




Orcophile said:


> So to hear the French police and soldiers get outraged years later was ridiculous. Because I lived with Algerian farmers/ranchers and they are just amazing in their skills to hunt wild game and use their knife to produce food on the table. They may not have formal training but they can use knives on actual living flesh far better than any soldier I know.



Truly?  How many soldiers in a combat arm do you know?



Orcophile said:


> ...
> Because I tell yah cutting animals with a butcher knife ISN'T EASY and requires strength most martial artists lack.



You're kidding, right?  I asked how many soldiers you know, how many butchers do you know?  How many martial artists do you know?  I am not a butcher, but I am a martial artist.  I can tell you that your statement is just plain wrong.



Orcophile said:


> I also put the Battle of Algiers in which real life French war veterans were criticizing as unrealistic because it shows French cops and troops as getting ambushed and killed within seconds. In particular they criticize how French  soldiers could not spot they were being stalked, how Algerian peasants were moving with such finesse and stealth, and most of all how these same uneducated farmers were hitting vital points with such precision as though they've just graduated commando school.
> 
> Well in fact as someone who's lived with Algerian farmers and ranchers for a month, I can tell you outright these guys know how to utilize stealth to catch a fast animal off-guard and their hands are so conditioned with knives they can easily cut through hard uncooked meat like its butter.
> 
> ...



A lot jumbled up above.  But this I can tell you, some people seem better at killing without being killed than others.  The French resistance in WWII showed what local resistance fighters can do.  Of course you seldom hear the stories of those who died trying to get good, only those who did get good at killing and surviving.  Also, amongst different individuals, trained fighters or not, some seem to have better reflexes, quicker realization of how to inflict damage or death with or without weapons.  As well, trained fighters or not, some seem less able to react quickly, even in defense of their own life.

All the above to say don't start trying to live in both the real world and the anime world.  If you insist in doing so, be sure you can keep them separate.  They don't seem to mix well.


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## drop bear (Dec 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> *Metaphor:*
> : a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar
> : an object, activity, or idea that is used as a symbol of something else
> 
> ...



Yo are being too literal.  We all know the video was fiction. It was being used to forward an idea.  

Which is how art works.


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## drop bear (Dec 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> More an indictment of her upbringing and mental state than the fact she worked in an abattoir, that just gave her a means. She could have worked anywhere or even not at all and would still have killed.



So you are sugesting not all butchers are homicidal maniacs?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It was being used to forward an idea


 what's the idea?


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## 7BallZ (Dec 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Of course he read your post that's why there's a sensible answer.
> 
> What is a violence professional? Have you just made that up?
> No offence but I think you need to stop watching films and start training martial arts then after a few years you can start giving informed opinion rather than just tell us how good such and such film was.



Marc MacYoung invented (or at least uses it enough to have introduced it to many noobs to RBSD) the term "violence professionals". Just a few looks at some of the articles he wrote  at allexpert and you'll understand what he means by th term.



JowGaWolf said:


> Out of all of the real world butchers and the real world history of butchers, the OP picks Anime to reference and I still don't see any real world information posted about Butchers.  No video, no studies, no references.



Just one link at the basics.

Killing for a Living: The Traumatic Consequences of Slaughterhouse Work - P1/2

ANd I can point at many more but its already late and I have work tomorrow.



JowGaWolf said:


> Only one person gave a personal experience with farm life



Marc MacYoung is an experienced rancher and as I stated he wrote before that  farmers are tend to be far more effective than many blackbelts and even inexperienced recruits in the military and police in levels of violence beneath shooting someone with a gun. In fact he even wrote one time about how ghetto people in violent urban environment are far more effective at detecting being stalked and reacting to sneak attacks with effective defensive movements than even many special ops such as Navy Seal, Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force, Marine Force Recon, etc.

And how far more Special forces and police who lack experience in the hoods have a much higher rate of being slaughtered by a surprise attack than a ghetto black kids whos lived in the most violent parts of New York all his life.



oftheherd1 said:


> First, let me congratulate you on such a longwinded, rambling post.  Quite an accomplishment for a thirteen year old.  BTW is that the norm where you live, apprenticing as a butcher at that age?  Of course I am assuming you are a butcher apprentice as you said you were a butcher in training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Firs tof all the bird I killed wasn't a chicken, it was a local gaming breed in Algeria but i never learned the name. The local farmers who I lived with for months had an MO of draining the bird's bllood by cutting its neck before going on to chop the rest of the body into meat.

Secondly I only used the Full Metal Alchemist example to prove a basic analogy to my message. Its the same reason I also used the Battle of Algiers. I already mentioned in my first post (if you actually read it) that Barry's techniques aren't necessarily the same per say as what I've been taught in class but its accurate in portraying the power, finesse, and danger someone who's worked with cutting animals open alive before as second nature.

Take that as opposed to movies which frequently show only violence professionals (such as soldiers, spies, Mafiaso, martial artists who specialized in sports and exhibition methodology, and so on) as being capable of knowing how to hit someone in the neck to kill them.

The few films out there which show people who are not involved in violent jobs but in jobs which utilize knives, axes, and other tools associated with street violence and  real warfare historically and even MODERN MILITARY are getting bashed because violence professionals are calling BS that a lumberjack can quickly dispatch an SF commando with his ax or how a peasant farmer in Egypt who skins animals for a living can slice local policemen up so easily as though he's a master of martial arts.

So many soldiers, cops, and martial artists and RBSD criticize fictional portrayals as unrealistic.

Well in fact having lived with relatives in Algeria, I am just amazed how they can use knives far more effectively than many blackbelts in the west and even military personnel in my hometown.

And not just in quickly opening apart animals alive (which have great difficulty especially if they are aggressive beasts like hyenas) but they can move with such swiftness and silence that I am often WTF at how they can get past even policemen undetected when they are smuggling in alcohol home.

Not even getting into my uncle who tookout the MMA blackbelt with such speed before the MMA guy realized he got whacked by a hammer (and this happened in America).

Thats what I'm questioning. About the "need" to take special forces knife instruction or Budo classes making you have the physical finesse and strength and knowing how to swing your weapon properly.

Because despite the people I know never having takena  single class on how to use a Bo staff, just from their jobs they can swing their tools in such effective manner that are even far more devastating than how trained martial artists and violence professionals are with tools (such as how I witnessed a shepard during mys tay in Algeria knock out aa few thugshug who was trying to threaten him with a knife using his home-made shepard crook passed down by his dad).

I was really impressed with how accurate The Battle of Algiers portrayed farmers being lethal forces given enough motivation (and being better than soldiers at military specific skills like stealth)-because despite how angry it made French war veterans, I lived with Algerian lower classes and they used these skills daily often because its necessary in their lifestyle for surviving another day).

Hell even in the Urban areas I visited, because of the violence frequenting many Algerian cities, some of my relatives are far superior a detecting being stalked and are better than most RBSD instructors at avoiding **** before it starts and defending themselves with a last minute block in an ambush (to quote Marc MacYoung's discussion and comments about ghetto people being superior than war veterans and other violence professionals at spotting sneak attacks and shady people).


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 14, 2015)

Orcophile said:


> And how far more Special forces and police who lack experience in the hoods have a much higher rate of being slaughtered by a surprise attack than a ghetto black kids whos lived in the most violent parts of New York all his life.


Show the data that supports this statement.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2015)

Orcophile said:


> Marc MacYoung invented (or at least uses it enough to have introduced it to many noobs to RBSD) the term "violence professionals". Just a few looks at some of the articles he wrote at allexpert and you'll understand what he means by th term.





Orcophile said:


> Not even getting into my uncle who tookout the MMA blackbelt with such speed before the MMA guy realized he got whacked by a hammer (and this happened in America).




I suppose you realise that many of us talk to Marc McYoung? some here train with him and know him well.

I take it you know that MMA doesn't have a belt system? You said it was an 'MMA fan boy', now it's a 'blackbelt'?

As for the rest, it's fine to imagine things but it doesn't make it the truth.


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## lklawson (Dec 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> To Summarise.
> 
> Can you get better at knife fighting by being a butcher than you can by doing knife fighting?


Knife *fighting*?  No.  Using a knife to carve vital areas, muscle, and ligament?  Yes.  Knife fighting and butchering aren't synonymous, though butchering can teach some important lessons but there's *vastly more* to knife fighting than just knowing where and how to cut.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 14, 2015)

Orcophile said:


> Because I tell yah cutting animals with a butcher knife ISN'T EASY and requires strength most martial artists lack.


Cutting animals isn't the same thing as knife fighting.  Butchering is highly informative, but there's a lot more to knife fighting than that.



> Which is why I'm wondering if untrained people who work in safe civilian jobs (that often utilized knives and other tools similar to weapons such as lumberjack who chops trees daily for a living) can be far better with using actual weapons that are designed similar to their tools than soldiers, police, RBSD instructors, and martial artists.


For certain narrowly defined sets of "using," yes.  For broader applications, maybe not.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 14, 2015)

Orcophile said:


> I'm currently rewatching the anime series Full Metal Alchemist.



Totally irrelevant to anything having to do with real life. Any similarities between anime and reality are purely coincidental.



Orcophile said:


> MacYoung frequently comments about know in the martial arts, self defense, and military combatives world how people brag about "OMG deadly killer katanas", "I'm so goooood because I'm a master of Army special forces knife combaties!" and other such expression about how because they own and practise with weapons they are utter badasses that they literally believed that they'd have no problem disarming a mugger or they'd have no problem cracking someone's skull using a Bo staff.



Marc MacYoung is selling a product, but he is certainly correct that there are martial artists with inflated views of their own abilities. The "quotes" you provide, however, sound more like 9-year-old kids than serious martial artists.



Orcophile said:


> To be specific they always make a comment about how such nonviolent people using such tools are not using the tools properly for fighting when the movie finally gets the working class man into conflict with a criminal syndicate. Comments with contempt like "its not the real way to use a stick in fighting!" or "he's using his slashing technique wrong!" or "he's holding the grip of the baton wrong" are what I always hear from RBSD instructors, martial artists, and inexperienced violence professional criticize a fictional portrayal in which a farmer defends his family from a burglar or a man who trims animal fur for a living kills a Mafia thug with his animal trimming knife.



Whatever you've heard, you've misunderstood.

In 34 years of martial arts training, I don't think I've heard a single martial artist criticize the idea of a protagonist who is a farmer or some such prevailing against the villains in a fight. I've encountered criticism of unrealistic fight choreography, but that fight choreography has nothing to do with the way a working man would use the tools of his trade.



Orcophile said:


> And there have been ex slaughterhouse workers and former butchers who admitted that they were so aggressive during their years of working some of them even considered killing people because they were so used to witnessing violence and because of the stress of their jobs but once they left the meat industry to work at desktop jobs or retired, they lost most such disturbing violent thoughts of considering murder.



I have no particular knowledge about the psychological state of butchers or slaughterhouse workers. However I am disinclined to just take your word for it since 99% of what you have posted on this forum has been completely off-base. Can you provide links?



Orcophile said:


> Can civilians who don't work in violent jobs (police, bounty hunger, criminal syndicate, soldier, RBSD instructor) have far better skills with weapons than violence professionals and trained martial artists?I put two examples but my experience is limited and I see how violence professionals and martial arts/rbsd instructors bash films for portraying civilians who don't work in dangerous jobs but work in jobs using tools that are similar to weapons such as a knife used to trim horse hair be just as good in technique as trained martial artists.



Sure. If you match up a cane field worker who swings a machete for a living all day every day against an accountant who trains a martial art involving a sword for 3 hours a week, my money is on the cane field worker. Even though the field worker may not have trained specifically in the combat application of the machete, he will likely have a huge advantage in speed, power, accuracy, control, and mental and physical toughness.

That's just one example. In other matchups the equations may work out differently.



Orcophile said:


> Well in fact I have a cousin who works renovating homes and I remember how he quickly took out a MMA fanboy punk with his hammer much faster than the punk could realize a hammer was just swung.



So? A "MMA fanboy punk" doesn't necessarily have any training, especially in defending unarmed against a lethal weapon (which a hammer certainly can be).



Orcophile said:


> Not even getting into my uncle who tookout the MMA blackbelt with such speed before the MMA guy realized he got whacked by a hammer (and this happened in America).



Now he's a "MMA black belt?" (And your cousin has become an uncle?)Disregarding the fact that MMA does not generally use a belt rank system, even a trained fighter is at a disadvantage when fighting unarmed against a weapon. A carpenter will probably swing a hammer faster and harder in a fight than most people, but a hammer is still a lethal weapon in even untrained hands.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Knife *fighting*?  No.  Using a knife to carve vital areas, muscle, and ligament?  Yes.  Knife fighting and butchering aren't synonymous, though butchering can teach some important lessons but there's *vastly more* to knife fighting than just knowing where and how to cut.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Agreed, for one thing dead animals don't fight back!


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sure. If you match up a cane field worker who swings a machete for a living all day every day against an accountant who trains a martial art involving a sword for 3 hours a week, my money is on the cane field worker. Even though the field worker may not have trained specifically in the combat application of the machete, he will likely have a huge advantage in speed, power, accuracy, control, and mental and physical toughness.



If it were a match up just for 'fun' I think the field worker would most likely prevail but here I also think the old adage comes into play that it's the fight in the dog that counts. It really depends on the reason for the fight, if the office worker was fighting for his life that adds an element that can outweigh the advantage of being able to use a tool for work.
There's so much conjecture however than unless we can make a case by case review we could be here forever wondering if this is better or that is. The OP's premise is flawed for so many reasons. Assuming what happens in fiction is also fact is a dangerous way to judge real life situations. Some fiction writers do immaculate research, usually in legal and medical and sometimes scientific fields or in researching locations of books but the protagonists in fiction are manipulated by the writer's imagination to fit scenarios that entertain, amuse or excite those being told the story. James Bond for example is very much Ian Fleming's creation, the British Intelligence community is nothing like that of the books and films,  John le Carre's books are much closer to the mark but are still fiction. For one thing the sheer tedium of intelligence work is left out. Any police officer will tell you that while there are days where 'excitement' happens it is nothing like the constant minute to minute action of police programmes and films.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have no particular knowledge about the psychological state of butchers or slaughterhouse workers. However I am disinclined to just take your word for it since 99% of what you have posted on this forum has been completely off-base.


 The stuff I found about the mental damage was related to slaughterhouse workers who have to actually kill the animal and not to those who cut or clean the meat after the animal was dead.  The information is very scarce because I had to weed out all of the animal rights activism that use the argument "slaughterhouses create murders" in order to find out what was really going on.
I looked at other studies as well and they discovered that animal abuse does not mean the person will become a murder.  The research stated that a person's willingness to hurt or kill an animal or human exists before any animal or humans are harmed.  The study also took a look at how many serial killers actually tortured or killed animals and they found that it was only a small percentage who killed animals before killing people.  There are some serial killers who are actually animal lovers.

They also found that abusing animals wasn't a one way ticket to becoming a serial kicker.  They discovered that the reason animals were abused in the first place was because the person was violent in the first place.  Most animals that were abused were from woman's domestic violence where the husband used the pets as leverage. Other animal abusers also didn't turn into serial killers.  The cause of being a serial killer had something to do with how the brain attaches moral values to actions...or something like that.  I stopped reading after that point.  Because it was basically starting to boil down to, abusing animals do not determine that someone will become a serial killer or even violent.  The human's ability to be violent is something that is already there. How people are able to control those tendencies for violence is what determines who will become a serial killer.

The research is good news because if it was the other way around, where killing something makes the person a serial killer, then solider, police officers, people who have killed in self-defense, hunters, kids who shoot squirrels, birds, rabbits with BB guns, fishermen, people who live in tribes in the jungle, people who "put animals to sleep", exterminators who kill pests, and bug killers would all be on a one track train ride to becoming a serial killer.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 14, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The stuff I found about the mental damage was related to slaughterhouse workers who have to actually kill the animal and not to those who cut or clean the meat after the animal was dead.  The information is very scarce because I had to weed out all of the animal rights activism that use the argument "slaughterhouses create murders" in order to find out what was really going on.
> I looked at other studies as well and they discovered that animal abuse does not mean the person will become a murder.  The research stated that a person's willingness to hurt or kill an animal or human exists before any animal or humans are harmed.  The study also took a look at how many serial killers actually tortured or killed animals and they found that it was only a small percentage who killed animals before killing people.  There are some serial killers who are actually animal lovers.
> 
> They also found that abusing animals wasn't a one way ticket to becoming a serial kicker.  They discovered that the reason animals were abused in the first place was because the person was violent in the first place.  Most animals that were abused were from woman's domestic violence where the husband used the pets as leverage. Other animal abusers also didn't turn into serial killers.  The cause of being a serial killer had something to do with how the brain attaches moral values to actions...or something like that.  I stopped reading after that point.  Because it was basically starting to boil down to, abusing animals do not determine that someone will become a serial killer or even violent.  The human's ability to be violent is something that is already there. How people are able to control those tendencies for violence is what determines who will become a serial killer.
> ...



Thanks for making the effort to do some actual research. Given the OP's track record, I wasn't going bother trying to figure out where he got his "information" from.


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## drop bear (Dec 14, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Knife *fighting*?  No.  Using a knife to carve vital areas, muscle, and ligament?  Yes.  Knife fighting and butchering aren't synonymous, though butchering can teach some important lessons but there's *vastly more* to knife fighting than just knowing where and how to cut.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



A lot less to knife fighting the you are generally taught?

I mean I get my krambit and learn to trap,lock and throw. Then I get my rubber knife out and all I ever did was slash stab and withdraw.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> A lot less to knife fighting the you are generally taught?
> 
> I mean I get my krambit and learn to trap,lock and throw. Then I get my rubber knife out and all I ever did was slash stab and withdraw.


More too it than that.  Tempo, Measure, Feints, Draws, footwork...  that just scratches the surface and none of it can be learned by being a butcher.

But, I agree that there's a lot of fancy-schmancy low-percentage stuff taught in some knife fighting systems.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Thanks for making the effort to do some actual research. Given the OP's track record, I wasn't going bother trying to figure out where he got his "information" from.


I used to work with youth and I guess I still have my Red Alert alarms running.  In my job it was one of my duties to spot when a child or teen has a disconnect with reality.  The disconnect with reality isn't bad so long as it is addressed.  The biggest warning sign was when youth used fantasy to explain reality.  I was originally going to just ignore this thread but since their are younger people on MT I thought I better say something in hopes that other teenagers don't make the same mistake that the OP has made in using fantasy to explain reality.   It's never a good thing when fantasy becomes the reference point to how the real world works.

I've actually seen the entire series of the Anime Series that the OP is referring to so I can understand where and why he's getting stuff confused.  Had he actually done some research on real life butcher then this would be a totally different conversation. 

I went back to see if I could find my sources. I was able to find some of them.
The Relationship of Animal Abuse to Violence and Other Forms of Antisocial Behavior
Rhode Island Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals chief says 'most' serial killers and people who engage in domestic violence start by abusing animals.  Links to other studies here. 

I just hope the next time the OP will use real life references the next time he has a question about what happens in real life.  I'm pretty sure no one here would train under a martial arts teacher that uses the anime as a reference for how to fight and train.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> A lot less to knife fighting the you are generally taught?
> 
> I mean I get my krambit and learn to trap,lock and throw. Then I get my rubber knife out and all I ever did was slash stab and withdraw.


People say the same thing about fighting with fists but when you actually do fight with fists, you instantly see that that there's more going on than just punching and kicking.


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## drop bear (Dec 14, 2015)

outh and I guess I still have my Red Alert alarms running.  In my job it was one of my duties to spot when a child or teen has a disconnect with reality.  The disconnect with reality isn't bad so long as it is addressed.  The biggest warning sign was when youth used fantasy to explain reality.  I was originally going to just ignore this thread but since their are younger people on MT I thought I better say something in hopes that other teenagers don't make the same mistake that the OP has made in using fantasy to explain reality.   It's never a good thing when fantasy becomes the reference point to how the real world works.

I've actually seen the entire series of the Anime Series that the OP is referring to so I can understand where and why he's getting stuff confused.  Had he actually done some research on real life butcher then this would be a totally different conversation.

I went back to see if I could find my sources. I was able to find some of them.
[URL='http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/14/9/963.short?_ga=1.201028904.763585115.1450086951' said:
			
		

> The Relationship of Animal Abuse to Violence and Other Forms of Antisocial Behavior[/URL]
> Rhode Island Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals chief says 'most' serial killers and people who engage in domestic violence start by abusing animals.  Links to other studies here.
> 
> I just hope the next time the OP will use real life references the next time he has a question about what happens in real life.  I'm pretty sure no one here would train under a martial arts teacher that uses the anime as a reference for how to fight and train.



You do realise that what OP did was how teachers teach basic reading comprehension.

Strategies that Promote Comprehension


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You do realise that what OP did was how teachers teach basic reading comprehension.


 I don't know what your are talking about or how that even fits.  So you'll have to explain that in more detail I'll even promise not to give an opinion on anything that you explain about reading comprehension and how it relates to anime characters being a reference for real life.


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## drop bear (Dec 14, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know what your are talking about or how that even fits.  So you'll have to explain that in more detail I'll even promise not to give an opinion on anything that you explain about reading comprehension and how it relates to anime characters being a reference for real life.



In school If you ever read a book or study a movie you are then asked to identify what themes in real life the the author or director was trying to convey.

So that you don't just watch a cartoon and go OK that was a nice fiction.

So people have used full metal alchemist to discuss real world themes. 

Full Metal Alchemist: Science vs Religion | The Artifice

Who are probably not in danger of not being able to separate reality and fiction.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> In school If you ever read a book or study a movie you are then asked to identify what themes in real life the the author or director was trying to convey


 Been there an done it.  Sometimes a story is just a story and it has nothing to do with real life.  Not every story, not movie has a theme that reflects back on a real world issues.  

If you actually look at the history of science vs religion, then you'll see that the conflict between the two is nothing like what is presented in Full Metal Alchemist.  Learn about the history of religion, see how religion has changed from pre-greek and roman gods to modern day religion.  Take a look at how religion and science have bumped heads in the past and how people mistook science as witch craft, and how there's killing in the Bible not only by Gods followers but by God.  Take a look at other religions and you'll see elements of war in it.  For example:
*Scar and the Religious Jihad*

1st.  Learn about what a Jihad is.  Jihad is about conquering not about revenge as the article that you listed suggested.  

And once again nor sources to real world events were given.  Everything reflects back on the anime as the resource for why the author who wrote the article.

When I had to write papers on books that reflected a real life theme, the teacher made me use real world examples of what was going on and what the book may be referring too.  I couldn't just assume something was real world.  I had to freaking to research about my assumptions of what I thought was really going on in the real word. And I did it without the help of the Internet.  Now people have the Internet and still don't research.


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## drop bear (Dec 14, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Been there an done it.  Sometimes a story is just a story and it has nothing to do with real life.  Not every story, not movie has a theme that reflects back on a real world issues.
> 
> If you actually look at the history of science vs religion, then you'll see that the conflict between the two is nothing like what is presented in Full Metal Alchemist.  Learn about the history of religion, see how religion has changed from pre-greek and roman gods to modern day religion.  Take a look at how religion and science have bumped heads in the past and how people mistook science as witch craft, and how there's killing in the Bible not only by Gods followers but by God.  Take a look at other religions and you'll see elements of war in it.  For example:
> *Scar and the Religious Jihad*
> ...




Again not the point. I dont care if the article was right wrong or indifferent.

The point is that people reference fictional works to address real world issues.

And that is not a sign of some sort of mental health issue.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Again not the point. I dont care if the article was right wrong or indifferent.
> 
> The point is that people reference fictional works to address real world issues.
> 
> And that is not a sign of some sort of mental health issue.



The key word here is 'reference', using a work of fiction to demonstrate a real life problem which is not what the OP is doing, he's believing that the fiction is the real world and that is worrying.


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## Steve (Dec 15, 2015)

Hey everybody, did the news get around bout a guy named Butcher Pete?


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## drop bear (Dec 15, 2015)

Steve said:


> Hey everybody, did the news get around bout a guy named Butcher Pete?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 15, 2015)

Here's an idea that might strike some of you as downright radical.

How about discussing the topic, instead of the poster?


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## lklawson (Dec 15, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've actually seen the entire series of the Anime Series that the OP is referring to so I can understand where and why he's getting stuff confused.


I have too, but it was still just a cartoon about a bunch of people doing magic and two kids with daddy issues.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Here's an idea that might strike some of you as downright radical.
> 
> How about discussing the topic, instead of the poster?


The problem is that the original topic and thesis is a confusing mish-mash of unsupported, illogical, and inaccurate assumptions which lead to illogical and inaccurate conclusions which the OP seems unwilling to recognize.  That leads to the natural discussion of why the original assumptions were so wrong, how the conclusion ended up being accepted by the OP, and why he's unwilling to accept the input from the experts he solicited with this post.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 15, 2015)

Steve said:


> Hey everybody, did the news get around bout a guy named Butcher Pete?





drop bear said:


>



The worst part about my broken hand is that the cast isn't letting me comfortably handle my PlayStation controller. I'm going through Fallout 4 withdrawal!


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## 7BallZ (Jan 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I used to work with youth and I guess I still have my Red Alert alarms running.  In my job it was one of my duties to spot when a child or teen has a disconnect with reality.  The disconnect with reality isn't bad so long as it is addressed.  The biggest warning sign was when youth used fantasy to explain reality.  I was originally going to just ignore this thread but since their are younger people on MT I thought I better say something in hopes that other teenagers don't make the same mistake that the OP has made in using fantasy to explain reality.   It's never a good thing when fantasy becomes the reference point to how the real world works.
> 
> I've actually seen the entire series of the Anime Series that the OP is referring to so I can understand where and why he's getting stuff confused.  Had he actually done some research on real life butcher then this would be a totally different conversation.
> 
> ...



You are aware that I was just using FUll Metal Alchemist because its the primary example of what I could think of so far as this topic goes.

I mean the fact me and my friends were yelling out "********!" years ago because a well-trained soldier such as Elric was getting overwhelmed by a civilian working a safe job. The notion of a "butcher" able to swing his blade ferociously to break defenses of someone trained in martial arts was incomprehensible to my 13 year old self as well as my other friends at the time.

However seeing that real life soldiers, police, and martial artists get killed quickly by people lacking formal training (but physically strong from manual labour and tough lifestyles and actually being part of more daily hands-on violence than most soldiers, cops, and martial arts practitioners) is what reminded me of Full Metal ALchemist.

I didn't even watch the show until I came across the AllExpert question Marc MAcYoung answered about violence professionals killed hit down by ghetto people in surprise attacks while being completely unaware is what reminded me of Full Metal Alchemist (and inspired me to rewatch it). Becuase reading the OP's description about SF dying while walking in the hoods despite having war experience and bouncers dying from sucker punches (despitely frequently putting drunks in a rearchocke from behind) sounded too ridiculous to be true.

However watching FMA and exploring Marc MacYOung's answers made me question many claims about violence professionals being superior to civilians that I and fellow classmates had back in Middle School. I mean looking back with some training I took on butchering and cullinery, its not that ridiculous that someone like Barry can almost kill a hardened soldier like Edward.

Back tot he main topic-my quesiton goes beyond just butchers.

I mean I literally seen RBSD instrucotrs mock the way baseball players swing their bats, saying its only for sport and it'll be ineffective for "real street fighting"

Uhhh most baseball players can hit balls going over 50 MPH and are known to hit so hard with bats that they damge both baseballs and bats and players have been measured has swinging with such force they can crack skulls in less than a second with a baseball bat.

Thats exactly what I'm going about. I'd honestly be more lovely scared of taking a MLB baseball player on than an RBSD instructor who claims he can teach you self defense with bats.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 2, 2016)

Orcophile said:


> I mean looking back with some training I took on butchering and cullinery, its not that ridiculous that someone like Barry can almost kill a hardened soldier like Edward.


  I think you are right.  Your training on butchering and cullinery is more than enough to go against these guys.




 
These guys





Personally I think you should go do a Dog Brothers event and show them up.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2016)

Who are are all these police, military and martial artists being killed? Please cite your sources for all these 'facts' you are posting.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Who are are all these police, military and martial artists being killed? Please cite your sources for all these 'facts' you are posting.


He cited his source: Marc MAcYoung, who sells self-defense videos and seminars.

It's a dead argument and he original poster isn't going to think differently so I'm just trying to encourage him to put his skills to the test against people who train and fight with weapons.  If the OP does that then all of his assumptions about anime and reality will go right out the window.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> He cited his source: Marc MAcYoung, who sells self-defense videos and seminars.
> 
> It's a dead argument and he original poster isn't going to think differently so I'm just trying to encourage him to put his skills to the test against people who train and fight with weapons.  If the OP does that then all of his assumptions about anime and reality will go right out the window.



Sorry, no, he states that many are killed against untrained people, I've asked Marc, he disagreed so I want to know where the OP got his 'information' from.
There is also no such thing as 'cullinary'.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 3, 2016)

Orcophile said:


> I mean I literally seen RBSD instrucotrs mock the way baseball players swing their bats, saying its only for sport and it'll be ineffective for "real street fighting"


You know, I'm having a really hard time believing that you have seen any such thing.

As stated previously, weapons are force multipliers. A swing with a baseball bat from _anyone_ can be dangerous. A swing with a bat by a professional baseball player could easily be lethal.

I've been training martial arts for 34 years and I talk to a _lot_ of other martial artists, both in person and online. I've never heard or seen any martial arts instructor claim that a swing with a bat by a baseball player would be ineffective in a street fight.

Unless you've just forgotten to mention it, you don't train in any martial art, yet you keep coming up with these bizarre statements that you claim were made by martial arts instructors. As far as I'm concerned the possibilities are

You are completely misunderstanding what is being said.
You are quoting some deluded crank who claims to be a martial arts instructor, but doesn't actually know anything about it.
You are making things up.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Sorry, no, he states that many are killed against untrained people, I've asked Marc, he disagreed so I want to know where the OP got his 'information' from.
> There is also no such thing as 'cullinary'.


hmmm.  Not quite sure what to say about that lol.  You asked Marc, and he disagreed.  
That's the great thing about the Internet.  Research is easy.
It's still a dead argument for me as long as he continues to compare an anime butcher fighting a child soldier with a magic to the real world. The sooner he spars against a real knife fighter or weapon fighter the sooner he can see the truth.  Anything less than that isn't going to change his mind.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> hmmm.  Not quite sure what to say about that lol.  You asked Marc, and he disagreed.
> That's the great thing about the Internet.  Research is easy.
> It's still a dead argument for me as long as he continues to compare an anime butcher fighting a child soldier with a magic to the real world. The sooner he spars against a real knife fighter or weapon fighter the sooner he can see the truth.  Anything less than that isn't going to change his mind.



Marc McYoung is very accessible and I've had a few internet discussions with him, to be honest anyone can. As I said before he's well known to martial artists and I believe personally known to quite a few posters here.
I think Orcophile needs martial arts experience first and foremost, empty hand before weapons. It's hard to discuss with any seriousness martial arts with someone who thinks anime is real life.


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