# situational errors in judgment? What would you have done?



## wushuguy (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok last night I was going out to meet a friend of mine. The parking lot by my apartment is poorly lit and there's a short bridge that goes over a creek. Standing on the bridge were 6 thuggish looking people, three on each side. As I get closer they look at me, one stares at me and mumbles about wanting to fight, and the six kind of block my way. Adrenaline starts pumping, I take a quick look and all their hands are visible, no one moving toward a pocket or behind the back, so without breaking stride I put on a "fight face" and hard penetrating gaze and continue walking toward them. I get closer and they back off and make way for me to go through. I as I pass between them three to each side of me, I swear that I could almost feel the hate from their eyes. After passing the bridge and getting to my truck I see that they're still staring at me.

Looking in hind sight, walking through their midst might not have been the best idea. The reason why I did at that time was because as soon as the adrenaline started pumping my thoughts went straight to thinking how to neutralize the threat that had appeared in front of me, I had forgot about walking the long route to the other side of the parking lot in order to avoid a possible confrontation. I got lucky that they backed down, otherwise things could have gotten bad for all of us there. In a situation like this what would you have done differently? 

A bit of background, we have lived in that area for some time, but since about half a year ago, we get more and more crimes committed against us, slowly escalating. at first was our truck being egged, then glass and sharp objects in the wheel, and escalating to sometimes they try to intimidate while walking to and from the parking lot, but this was the first time being confronted in this manner.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 8, 2010)

Without actually being there I really can&#8217;t tell you how I would have reacted or if I would have done things differently or the same. If I were to tray I would feel very much like an armchair quarterback.

You got through, no one got hurt and you are ok, it appears to have workout this time

Just stay aware of your surroundings and maybe next time go the long way or park somewhere closer


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 8, 2010)

It's hard to say.  Sometimes obviously backing down or choosing a different route will encourage thugs to pursue.  It's 'prey' mentality and it can encourage primitive reactions.  I'm glad the course of action you choose worked out well for you.  Sorry you find yourself in such situations.


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## seasoned (Sep 9, 2010)

On a quick note, sometimes backing down shows weakness, and could draw their aggression. In this case you did the right thing, but you never know until the time comes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 9, 2010)

seasoned said:


> On a quick note, sometimes backing down shows weakness, and could draw their aggression. In this case you did the right thing, but you never know until the time comes.



I agree.  Once spotted by the group in question, the safest response is likely to be very different than the response if the person can avoid being seen.

I once took my three (at the time) little nieces to see the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago.  I made the mistake of walking there from the Field Museum.  There's a pedestrian tunnel that goes under Lake Shore Drive.  I walked into it, and was confronted with thugs and dangerous-looking people.  Here I was, holding hands with three suddenly terrified little girls.  I knew in my heart that if I stopped and reversed course, we'd be attacked.  I set my jaw and pressed on, looking straight ahead but trying hard to give off the _'I am armed and dangerous'_ vibe.  I don't know if that came through or not, but we made it out the other side.  We took a cab back.

Was it the right choice?  Would we have been attacked had we turned around?  Dunno.  We made it, I guess that's all I can say.  I went with my gut and it worked out.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 9, 2010)

In the end, if you came out unharmed, it was the right decision.
I wouldn't know what I would have done. We can talk until the cows come home but unless we've been there before several times, we just don't know.

I do recall from my sensei that sometimes, showing weakness in front of a pack is the worst thing you can do because it makes them confident. And as soon as the first pack member initiates something, the entire pack will pounce. Yet if you radiate that you will kill the first person to lay hands on you, none of them might be inclined to be that person.... or not.


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## wushuguy (Sep 9, 2010)

thanks for the replies. currently we're looking to move out of this area. too much discrimination. and rather avoid conflict where possible.

But i also had the feeling that if i turned around, then it would initiate a chase, or next time they will be more emboldened to act on their words. I've only been in few situations like these and heard of some people's experience in them. If they were yelling at me from across the lot, then yeah i think i would have turn around quickly. but since we were less than 30 ft and on a short bridge when the comments came, I felt no chance to run, so kept going forward.


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## seasoned (Sep 9, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree. Once spotted by the group in question, the safest response is likely to be very different than the response if the person can avoid being seen.
> 
> I once took my three (at the time) little nieces to see the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago. I made the mistake of walking there from the Field Museum. There's a pedestrian tunnel that goes under Lake Shore Drive. I walked into it, and was confronted with thugs and dangerous-looking people. Here I was, holding hands with three suddenly terrified little girls. I knew in my heart that if I stopped and reversed course, we'd be attacked. I set my jaw and pressed on, looking straight ahead but trying hard to give off the _'I am armed and dangerous'_ vibe. I don't know if that came through or not, but we made it out the other side. We took a cab back.
> 
> Was it the right choice? Would we have been attacked had we turned around? Dunno. We made it, I guess that's all I can say. *I went with my gut and it worked out*.


 With split second decisions I believe the gut speaks first.


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## jks9199 (Sep 9, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> thanks for the replies. currently we're looking to move out of this area. too much discrimination. and rather avoid conflict where possible.
> 
> But i also had the feeling that if i turned around, then it would initiate a chase, or next time they will be more emboldened to act on their words. I've only been in few situations like these and heard of some people's experience in them. If they were yelling at me from across the lot, then yeah i think i would have turn around quickly. but since we were less than 30 ft and on a short bridge when the comments came, I felt no chance to run, so kept going forward.


Smart idea.  It sounds like you've got a bigger issue than one bridge crossing.

I would suggest examining what happened so that problems don't recur.  I don't know if you pissed someone off, if a bad element simply moved in, if you were simply randomly targeted or targeted for being different... but something seems to be going on.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 9, 2010)

That's the tough thing: deciding whether or not you did the right thing after all is said and done. 

ultimately, every situation is unique, and while there are of course concepts that work for general purposes, specific instances may or may not fall in line with those.

In the situation you were in, you ultimately made the correct decision. Yes, it could have gone differently, but it didn't. It's not wrong to analyze the situation, especially to figure out what you would have done if it went differently,  but there's no need to second-guess your decision. Be confident that your decision in this case was correct.


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## Omar B (Sep 9, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> Ok last night I was going out to meet a friend of mine. *The parking lot by my apartment is poorly lit* and there's a short bridge that goes over a creek. Standing on the bridge were 6 thuggish looking people, three on each side. As I get closer they look at me, one stares at me and mumbles about wanting to fight, and the six kind of block my way. Adrenaline starts pumping, I take a quick look and all their hands are visible, no one moving toward a pocket or behind the back, so without breaking stride I put on a *"fight face"* and hard penetrating gaze and continue walking toward them. *I get closer and they back off and make way for me to go through.* I as I pass between them three to each side of me, I swear that I could almost feel the hate from their eyes. After passing the bridge and getting to my truck I see that they're still staring at me.



Ok, you gotta get a pocket flashlight.  You would be surprised how effective a flashlight is at keeping people at bay.  Light scares pack animals, plus they can't see well through the glare.

The fight face thing was a mistake I think.  You could have seemed to be "asking for it."  Calmness would have worked better, appearing scared would have made them attack, but appearing threatening could have done the same.  Thankfully these guys seemed weak enough not to want to attack someone they assumed could fight back.

Walking through their midst is the part that really scared me.  You got yourself surrounded.  You could have been attacked on all sides, stabbed, just about anything, you were at their complete mercy for a while.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 9, 2010)

First off. Glad you got through OK. Might not have gone perfect, but as the saying goes "If it's stupid but it works, it wasn't stupid".



wushuguy said:


> Ok last night I was going out to meet a friend of mine. The parking lot by my apartment is poorly lit


 
www.surefire.com

Cockroaches fear the light.



> and there's a short bridge that goes over a creek. Standing on the bridge were 6 thuggish looking people, three on each side. As I get closer they look at me, one stares at me and mumbles about wanting to fight, and the six kind of block my way. Adrenaline starts pumping, I take a quick look and all their hands are visible, no one moving toward a pocket or behind the back, so without breaking stride I put on a "fight face" and hard penetrating gaze and continue walking toward them. I get closer and they back off and make way for me to go through. I as I pass between them three to each side of me, I swear that I could almost feel the hate from their eyes. After passing the bridge and getting to my truck I see that they're still staring at me.


 
File a police report ASAP. If these people don't live at that complex there's more going on. Scumbags don't just materialize six to a bridge. You mention their actions became keyed to yours once they saw you. Did you piss someone off recently? It may even be just a gang initiation or it could just be random. No matter what the case, _get the police involved_, get these pukes cleaned up off your yard.



> Looking in hind sight, walking through their midst might not have been the best idea. The reason why I did at that time was because as soon as the adrenaline started pumping my thoughts went straight to thinking how to neutralize the threat that had appeared in front of me, I had forgot about walking the long route to the other side of the parking lot in order to avoid a possible confrontation. I got lucky that they backed down, otherwise things could have gotten bad for all of us there. In a situation like this what would you have done differently?


 
_Get the police involved._ Apart from that: 

First off--good job keeping your eyes on their hands. 

From this point on, anytime you leave your residence you're gonna have to do a radar sweep. Pretend to tie a shoe, talk on a cellphone, but sweep. You could even make the phone part of a ploy( " Yes , Officer, there's six of them...").

From this point on, whenever you enter your apartment--before you even enter--take a slow deep breath. Anything you smell that should not be there( cigarette smoke, blood, body odor) may tip you off in advance of an ambush.

From this point on, if you do not carry any weapon of any sort--you may wish to give thought to it now. I don't care if it's a teeny tiny pocketknife. Any more than one attacker at a time is by definition deadly force and should be treated as such.

At this point you shouldn't be leaving your home without at least 4 things 1) cellphone 2) flashlight 3) pepper spray 4) pocketknife( or kubaton if you don't desire a "lethal" option).





> A bit of background, we have lived in that area for some time, but since about half a year ago, we get more and more crimes committed against us, slowly escalating. at first was our truck being egged, then glass and sharp objects in the wheel, and escalating to sometimes they try to intimidate while walking to and from the parking lot, but this was the first time being confronted in this manner.


 
*Get. The. Police. Involved.* Start documenting every last piece of scumbaggery to occur from here out. if this goes the way i fear it will, you're gonna want as much of a paper trail/advance notice to the police that there's a problem as you can get when it comes time to show in court that you tried everything else before going physical.


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## Eazy (Sep 10, 2010)

Yes you come out alright good for you. In some situations like this another idea would be to engage them first with a question say gidday boys hey can you tell me where such and such it ie A chemist or something or you could say have you seen a buch of blokes on bikes around here im waiting for my mates to show up they are supposed to be meeting me here. Once they gort the idea you got a bunch of biker mates rolling up they might think different, Yes its all bluff but can help. All of a sudden you have given these loosers a purpose in life to help you, Hardly what they expected so it thows them off there intiall thoughts and they cannot converse to each other on what to do so they don't know what each of their thoughts are. (BS) is a good way out aswell. You could run towards them and yell ive got to get help can you tell me where the hospital is ive got to get a ambulance my mate having a fit i gotta get help. Or tell them his just had a bad hit or fix, This brings you down to their level something they may relate to. These are untried idea by myself but its all about being fast on your feet with (BS) Tell them ya missus just had a miscarrage you need the hospital they will feel sorry for you and your missus and probably bad of themselves that they were going to hurt you. The other advantage of this is if they cause you harm or trouble there is a chance they may be up for manslauter if your missus or mate dies. Regardless of what thry think they will probalby not hurt or attack you as they think your already down on luck and to agrevate you in that state could only cause you to not hold back. Then if they did attack you you will go in like 10 men knowing that if your situation was real these pethetic loosers deserve everything your going to give em. This are all just thoughts ideas one might do to possition themselves as walking threw or to assess wich ones the leader or dominant one his your first target as once you take him down the rest may flee. Keeping your thoughts about the one that made the comment in the first place. Or when you first notice the comment slap yourself on the head like you forgot something and go back to where you just come from to go get it. 
Take note of the surroundings, Sand is a good weapon rocks will keep them at distance a good stick, your car keys a shirt or jacket can be used to chock or disarm  a stick poked straight into the head towards the eyes. Ha tell them your starting up a martial arts club would they like to join you'll send them a brouchur your getting made up so grab there names and addresses then go back and sort them out with a few good trained mates. They get their first lesson free.


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## wushuguy (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks. The bridge is fairly close to my apartment, I can down the back window and see if they're there or not before heading out. If they are there again, I will be sure to make the proper phone call.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 17, 2010)

wushuguy said:


> Ok last night I was going out to meet a friend of mine. The parking lot by my apartment is poorly lit and there's a short bridge that goes over a creek. Standing on the bridge were 6 thuggish looking people, three on each side. As I get closer they look at me, one stares at me and mumbles about wanting to fight, and the six kind of block my way. Adrenaline starts pumping, I take a quick look and all their hands are visible, no one moving toward a pocket or behind the back, so without breaking stride I put on a "fight face" and hard penetrating gaze and continue walking toward them. I get closer and they back off and make way for me to go through. I as I pass between them three to each side of me, I swear that I could almost feel the hate from their eyes. After passing the bridge and getting to my truck I see that they're still staring at me.
> 
> Looking in hind sight, walking through their midst might not have been the best idea. The reason why I did at that time was because as soon as the adrenaline started pumping my thoughts went straight to thinking how to neutralize the threat that had appeared in front of me, I had forgot about walking the long route to the other side of the parking lot in order to avoid a possible confrontation. I got lucky that they backed down, otherwise things could have gotten bad for all of us there. In a situation like this what would you have done differently?
> 
> A bit of background, we have lived in that area for some time, but since about half a year ago, we get more and more crimes committed against us, slowly escalating. at first was our truck being egged, then glass and sharp objects in the wheel, and escalating to sometimes they try to intimidate while walking to and from the parking lot, but this was the first time being confronted in this manner.


 
Some situations aggression will save you where caution won't.  Backing away sometimes encourages the jackals to pursue......they derive courage from fear and weakness.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 17, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> In the end, if you came out unharmed, it was the right decision.
> I wouldn't know what I would have done. We can talk until the cows come home but unless we've been there before several times, we just don't know.
> 
> I do recall from my sensei that sometimes, showing weakness in front of a pack is the worst thing you can do because it makes them confident. And as soon as the first pack member initiates something, the entire pack will pounce. Yet if you radiate that you will kill the first person to lay hands on you, none of them might be inclined to be that person.... or not.


 
Bingo!  Packs always derive courage from displays of weakness.  The pack rarely attacks until it can get the victim to attempt to flee or back down.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 17, 2010)

By way, what does your 'fight face' look like? My fight face consists of a huge smile! 

When i'm going to flatten someone, I don't yell, or look angry, or make threats......i'd prefer to throw them off of being able to read my intent. I also tend to talk in a lower, calmer voice, the more agitated the sitution becomes. Right before violence it usually becomes a whisper......mostly because adrenaline makes it difficult for me to talk. But i've learned to disquise the adrenal response.

Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy. Never make threats, never allude to your intent. Smile, talk softly, that exudes confidence. Respond to taunts with responses that indicate you might NOT be right in the head! Nobody wants to fight with someone who might legitimately be crazy. Don't respond with challenging statements, but just respond with statements that aren't quite.........right. Talk about the weather. Mention that your late, your late, for a very important date. 


In my LEO career i've found random, off beat, sometimes bizarre, comments can defuse tense situations.  Folks reaction is usually...."WTH?!"  Smile while you're doing it like you're having the time of your life!  George Thompson of 'Verbal Judo' fame tells a story of an old Sergeant who walked in to the middle of a loud domestic disturbance.  He walked in, picked up an Ad Tracker advertisement circular, and began acting like he was reading it.  He then asked the male if he could use his phone, because he saw a motorcycle in the circular he wanted to check on while he was there.

The couple immediately stopped fighting, because the situation became bizarre.  It's much like what would happen during a riot if a UFO suddenly appeared over head.......immediately folks who completely forget about the riot!

Always remember when doing it, however, that YOU can't forget what's going on..........prepare to respond IMMEDIATELY with violence should the situation call for it........and your random, bizarre, slightly carefree disposition will mask your potential violence until it's time to strike, affording some psychological advantage when you suddenly shift gears!


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## Omar B (Sep 17, 2010)

You are so right about the off beat comments and questions throwing people off.  In a situation getting out of hand I sometimes ask "What did you have for breakfast?  I had eggs."  Or "that color looks great on you."  Giving someone a what the hell moment works in your favor, it throws them off their escalating scale of anger that's going on, it breaks their rhythm, hell, they might even think you are crazy and leave you alone.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 17, 2010)

Omar B said:


> You are so right about the off beat comments and questions throwing people off. In a situation getting out of hand I sometimes ask "What did you have for breakfast? I had eggs." Or "that color looks great on you." Giving someone a what the hell moment works in your favor, it throws them off their escalating scale of anger that's going on, it breaks their rhythm, hell, they might even think you are crazy and leave you alone.


 
Exactly!


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