# What is RyuKyu Kenpo/Kempo



## Zoran (Aug 21, 2003)

I'm posting this here as this system is more a traditional Karate than a Modern Kenpo system.

I'm trying to figure out what Ryukyu kenpo is. Searching the web, I find different schools proclaiming to teach this system. I do know that it supposed to originate for the Ryukyu islands. But beyond that, I'm lost.

What I would like to know is:

1) Is their a founder that lineage can be traced to?

2) Is there a commonality to all the different Ryukyu systems?

3) If you could write a description of the system, what would it be?

I know Dillman (sp?), is one of the people who says they teach this system.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.


----------



## MJS (Aug 21, 2003)

Don't know alot about it, so my opinion is based only on what I have seen.

It seems that Dillman does a good job of breaking down the movements that are hidden in kata, breaks them down, and applies them as techniques.  He focuses alot of KO's.  He would be able to take a SD tech. from your style and supercharge it a little, by adding the PP theory.  

IMO, and again, I'm only going on what I have seen.  I am not too impressed with it, and for the following reasons.

1- He (Dillman) and his students/Inst. seem VERY arrogant.  They walk around like they are the best---they are not!!!  One thing to be confident, but to have a huge ego!

2- Everything that I have seen him do has been done on a person that is not moving.  Yeah, its very easy to KO someone if they are not moving.  Lets see it on someone that is moving around. 

3-  I dont think its that safe.  By hitting the various points on the body, you are disrutping the energy flow of that person.  Is this safe? Is it safe to hit the same spot over and over?  What are the long term effects of doing this?

Ive always been a believer in that there is something to be learned from every art.  If you can take an idea from Muay Thai, and you can make your roundhouse kick better, why not do it?  If you can take an idea from JKD and make it work for you, why not do it?  IMO, the PP are best used if someone is grabbing you.  But even then, chances are the person is not going to just grab your shirt and stand there--he's gonna be slamming you into the wall!  

Not sure if this answered any of your questions.  For more info about this art, I'd research the web.  Go to Dillmans site.  I'm sure there is a spot that talks about history.  If not, click on the links, and check out the other schools listed.  You might find something.  If all else fails, email Dillman and ask him your questions!

Mike


----------



## Kempojujutsu (Aug 21, 2003)

The man, who named the art Ryukyu Kempo is Shigeru Nakamura. He trained under his father Taketo and his uncle Chokki Motobu. Motobu was the uncle to Mitose who started Kosho Ryu Kenpo. The Motobu family has a long tradition with the King of Ryukyu. His 6th son Prince Sho Koshin, his father reigned from 1648-1669. 

Getting back to Nakamra, he disliked the thought of karate being seperated into different styles. His idea was to form an unrestricted free fighting system designed for competitions, using karate kata as the basic core. Just like the popluar japanese arts of judo and Kendo.

Several modern day Ryukyu kempo people included besides George Dillman
Taika Oyata, also known as Seiyu Oyata. This is the man responsable for teaching Dillman. You may go to Oyata's web site www.ryushu.com/ for alot more info on him.
Seikichi Odo who I think has pasted away now.
Shian Toma, would also teaches Motobu Ryu besides Kempo.

What is Ryukyu Kempo? It covers traditional Okinawan kata's breaks the kata's down studying the movement. Which is called Bunkai. It has pressure point striking in it. joint locking called tuite. Ryukyu Kempo, Motobu Ryu are sometimes called the Okinawan verision of Aikijujutsu.

The info on Nakaurma comes from a book called Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop. If you want to know anything about Okinawan Martial Arts, history wise get this book.

The info on Oyata comes from past instructor and oyata's web site. Very good site on about him.
Bob :asian:


----------



## Zoran (Aug 21, 2003)

Thanks Kempojujutsu.

After doing some searching on the net, Ryukyu Kenpo, Okinawan Kenpo, and Ryute seem to come from the same lineage and is the same style, if not the exact same system.

Where does Danzan Ryu fall into this?
------------------------------------------------------
MJS,

Thank you for the reply. However, this is more of a historical fact finding thread I hoped to start. I really don't wish it to develop into a pro or con debate on pressure points or systems.

I do appreciate your reply


----------



## Sauzin (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *The man, who named the art Ryukyu Kempo is Shigeru Nakamura. He trained under his father Taketo and his uncle Chokki Motobu. Motobu was the uncle to Mitose who started Kosho Ryu Kenpo. The Motobu family has a long tradition with the King of Ryukyu. His 6th son Prince Sho Koshin, his father reigned from 1648-1669.
> 
> Getting back to Nakamra, he disliked the thought of karate being seperated into different styles. His idea was to form an unrestricted free fighting system designed for competitions, using karate kata as the basic core. Just like the popluar japanese arts of judo and Kendo.
> ...


Precisely, and from what I heard Dillman really only took a few seminars.  His only traditional lineage that he can trace is his shodan in Shotokan.

Let's not forget Seikichi Odo, Oyata's peer who also trained under Nakaurma.  These guys are the two major modern sources of Okinawan or Ryukyu Kenpo.  

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 21, 2003)

Danzan Ryu is a Japanese Jujitsu style founded (I think) by Henry Okizaki in Hawaii.  I don't think it is related to Ryukyu or Shorinji Kempo.  

There are several Danzan Ryu schools in my area.  I checked one out last year.  Here are some links:

http://www.danzanryu.com/
http://www.kodenkan.com/

Here is an article on the DanzanRyu <> Kosho Ryu Kenpo connection authored by Danzan Ryu Professor Tony Janovich and published on the San Jose Kenpo web page.

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/Isitkenpoorjutisukenpo.htm


----------



## Zoran (Aug 21, 2003)

Thanks guys, this helps.  

Speaking of Shorinji Kempo, so were to they fit in. Is the founder of that system in anyway connected to the others?


----------



## Samurai (Aug 21, 2003)

> Ryukyu Kenpo, Okinawan Kenpo, and Ryute seem to come from the same lineage and is the same style



Same things.

Ryukyu is the name for Okinawan Island Chain.  Therefore, Ryukyu Kenpo or Ryukyu KeMpo all mean Okinawan Fist arts.

Okinawan Kenpo is the translation of Ryukyu Kenpo

and finally Ryu-te means Okinawan TE (Hand) or another translation in Okinawan Fist Arts.

PS- I echo the book recommendation from Mark Bishop.  I would also advise you to look at "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" by Shosin Nagamine availible HERE 

Thanks,
jeremy bays


----------



## Rick Tsubota (Aug 21, 2003)

Nakamura Shigeru was the founder of Okinawan Kenpo not Ryukyu Kempo.

The old word for karate was Ryukyu Kenpo karate/Tode jutsu.
Not many people use this name now, maybe nobody I think.
One of my teacher, Oyata Sensei, called his art Ryukyu Kempo many years ago. I think he is the only one or maybe one of few people in Okinawa to do this.
I think Mr. Dillman copied the name. 
Oyata sensei and Mr. Dillman don't teach the same thing.
I remember Mr. Dillman came to Okinawa couple times, many people think he is funny guy but not good skill.
I know when Oyata sensei was in Okinawa only 2 kinds of people know him. 
One kind is his friend and respect him, other kind scared of him and stay away from him.
His nickname was "habu". It's kind of deadly snake in Okinawa.
I liked to study with him in Okainwa because you never have to wonder if technique work or not.


----------



## kenmpoka (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *Thanks guys, this helps.
> 
> Speaking of Shorinji Kempo, so were to they fit in. Is the founder of that system in anyway connected to the others? *


 Shorinji Kempo was founded by So Doshin. So Doshin's training was in Hakko Ryu Jujutsu and ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do(an Okinawan karate system from the island of Kudaka that employs a lot kicking and chinese movements) under Kaiso (founder) Kori Hisataka. He also picked up some knowledge of Shaolin Gong Fu while stationed in Manchuria (?) as a spy. Mixing all this with Zen is Shorinji Kempo....

Salute,


----------



## Lucy Rhombus (Aug 22, 2003)

Good answer, kempojujutsu.

You mentioned Odo.  He did indeed pass away, in the spring of 2002.  I study Okinawan kenpo (which we called Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Karate-do before Odo's death), and Odo was my sensei's main teacher.  Unfortunately, I started studying karate just a couple of months after Odo visited the dojo, so I missed him.

I'll third the suggestion of the Mark Bishop book.  I'm reading it right now.


----------



## D.Cobb (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *1- He (Dillman) and his students/Inst. seem VERY arrogant.  They walk around like they are the best---they are not!!!  One thing to be confident, but to have a huge ego!*



I think this is one of those things, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I train in Ryukyu Kempo under Master Frank Monea, in Melbourne, Victoria. Australia. His Ryukyu Kempo training was done under Mr. Dillman. Mr. Monea is probably the most UN egotistical man I have ever met, and he says that Mr. Dillman is very humble and unassuming.
Even Earl Montague, congratulated Mr. Dillman on the quality and humility of his students in an early magazine article, published here in Australia. Mr. Montague is one of Mr. Dillman's more public nay sayers.



> *2- Everything that I have seen him do has been done on a person that is not moving.  Yeah, its very easy to KO someone if they are not moving.  Lets see it on someone that is moving around. *



You need to come see Mr. Monea do his thing I have never had the opportunity of standing still whilst being hit. Also, the more effort the attacker puts into the strike, the less effort is required to make the pressure point stuff work.
I haven't even seen him do stuff on a static target.



> *3-  I dont think its that safe.  By hitting the various points on the body, you are disrutping the energy flow of that person.  Is this safe? Is it safe to hit the same spot over and over?  What are the long term effects of doing this?*



The majority of pressure point applications are quite safe, but I would have to agree with you here, as does my teacher, that KO's are dangerous. I have only ever been KO'd by him once, but every other time, it just made me feel weird, my brain was telling me to do different things, like hit again and such like, but my legs wouldn't hold me up and and I was a bit confused.
In fact the best term for it, I have heard is the one 'DOC' uses, "Physical/ Mental Disassociation".



> *IMO, the PP are best used if someone is grabbing you.  But even then, chances are the person is not going to just grab your shirt and stand there--he's gonna be slamming you into the wall! *



IMHO the best time to use pressure points, is when someone is doing anything of a violent nature toward you or someone you love. 

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## MJS (Aug 23, 2003)

Dave, Thanks for the reply!  Like I said in my first post, I have not trained with or have met Dillman, I was just going by what I have seen on tape, and what others have said.

As for the movement, again, from what I have seen, all I've seen is people just standing there.  I realize that this is good for a reference point, but to test the effectiveness of it, it should be done on a moving, resisting person.

Don't get me wrong.  I do believe that there is something to be leanred from every art.  Something that might work for one person, may not work for another.  PP are something that take alot of time to effectively develop.  Considering that in order to get the most out of it, you pretty much have to be very accurate when hitting the point, if you want the desired result.  Its hard enough to pinpoint the spot on someone standing still, but on a moving opp. you definately need to be precise.

PP are something, that if you can get them to work, are a safer alternative to actually punching someone, gouging the eyes, etc.   In todays world, where people are very sue happy, being able to control someone rather than hitting them, might be safer.

Mike


----------



## D.Cobb (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Dave, Thanks for the reply!  Like I said in my first post, I have not trained with or have met Dillman, I was just going by what I have seen on tape, and what others have said.*



No quarrels here my friend, my statement was made purely from the third person perspective as well.



> *As for the movement, again, from what I have seen, all I've seen is people just standing there.  I realize that this is good for a reference point, but to test the effectiveness of it, it should be done on a moving, resisting person.*



You are quite right on this point. One of the worst things about trying PP stuff on a static target is the fact that you basically need to induce blunt force trauma to make them work. We all know, you don't have to be trained to do that
However to make it real, you need your opponent/ training partner to be moving like it was for real, and when you do your stuff, both you and he will know if it works or not.



> *Don't get me wrong.  I do believe that there is something to be leanred from every art.  Something that might work for one person, may not work for another.  PP are something that take alot of time to effectively develop.  Considering that in order to get the most out of it, you pretty much have to be very accurate when hitting the point, if you want the desired result.  Its hard enough to pinpoint the spot on someone standing still, but on a moving opp. you definately need to be precise..*



Whilst, I agree with you that what works for one won't always work for another, I think that in most cases, the level of effectiveness is directly proportional to the desire to learn and the intensity at which you train. As to the accuracy required, I think there maybe a number of different schools of thought on this one.
Some of us believe, that it is more about nerve facilitation in a certain area than pin point accuracy. You would use the PP names as a reference, but in reality, you are striking in that area, rather than on the spot.
From what I have been told, Mr. Oyata's schools teach to strike areas rather than specific PP, and my school does the same. For example, rather than GB20 you would strike to the back of the head at about where a short hair cut might finish. Now you know where to strike, all you have to do is apply angle and direction to make it more effective.
As to making it work on an attacking opponent, think of any effective combination you would use in either self defense or sparring. Now think back to when you first began training, could you do this combination effectively then? Probably not, but you have trained with intensity and now in the middle of a situation, there is the opening and pop, you've done it. PP's are the same.
Also, even if you only manage to shake him up a little, because your technique was off, then you've still given yourself time to either hit him again, or run away.



> *PP are something, that if you can get them to work, are a safer alternative to actually punching someone, gouging the eyes, etc.   In todays world, where people are very sue happy, being able to control someone rather than hitting them, might be safer.*



Whilst this is true in essence, PP's are nothing more than a tool in our martial arts tool box. Where the Muay Thai guys have those nasty round house thigh kicks, and Judo and BJJ guys have countless numbers of chokes and holds, some of us use PP. 
Getting them to work, as I said before is as easy as training hard.

Thanks for a highly inciteful discussion.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## DRMiller (Dec 8, 2003)

I was a student under Oyata Sensei when his style was called RyuKyu Kempo before it was changed due to legal reasons and someone else using a name he had no right to, (said person being mentioned in earlier posts). I received my shodan from Oyata Sensei and helped instruct in our local dojo until 1997 when I decided to stop training due to a job change (started working 2nd shift) and the closing of our dojo. 

I pursued other things for about 5 years until the events of 9/11 brought back the reality of being prepared to defend oneself in any situation and a mother calling me and asking if I would be willing to train her son. This started the ball rolling again to get back into training and after trying another style (American Kempo) for 9 months, I contacted an Oyata style instructor where I live and had a nice visit and adjusted my schedule to start training again in what is now called RyuTe. I also started teaching a class of adults and children at my Church in the art of Karate. I have come full circle in my Martial arts and am now at peace with it. What once was a desire to gain rank has become a realization that I have a lifetime to train and I am in no hurry. 

I have been to a couple of seminars with Oyata Sensie in the past couple of months and he is looking and doing great and passing on some great instruction to us, more than what I remember in the past. I had been reading several of the books mentioned on Okinawan karate and several magazine articles from different masters and they all express the same concerns that it all begins with proper basics. If we get into too much of a hurry to build upon a poor foundation we will not end up with a stable structure. That is the problem with a lot of modern martial artists, they want to go straight to the knock out techniques without first understanding the stances and  body positions and striking techniques required to successfully execute on a moving target without having to think about it. One of the best examples I heard from Oyata recently was that when a person begins to learn how to type they first have to think about where their fingers are and where they need to go to create words on a sheet of paper but after months or years of practice and use their fingers go where they are supposed to without even thinking about it. That is why we train as we do and what our goal should be to make words of life protection self defense out of the individual techiques found and studied in the katas without haveing to think about it. Also, Character development is an important part of RyuTe. Only those with proper character can be trusted to know when and how to use the more advanced techniques. In the hands of a good man they can be used for good, in the hands of a bad man they become dangerous to all. I am glad to be back training in Oyata Sensei's system.


----------



## DRMiller (Dec 8, 2003)

I was a student under Oyata Sensei when his style was called RyuKyu Kempo before it was changed due to legal reasons and someone else using a name he had no right to, (said person being mentioned in earlier posts). I received my shodan from Oyata Sensei and helped instruct in our local dojo until 1997 when I decided to stop training due to a job change (started working 2nd shift) and the closing of our dojo. 

I pursued other things for about 5 years until the events of 9/11 brought back the reality of being prepared to defend oneself in any situation and a mother calling me and asking if I would be willing to train her son. This started the ball rolling again to get back into training and after trying another style (American Kempo) for 9 months, I contacted an Oyata style instructor where I live and had a nice visit and adjusted my schedule to start training again in what is now called RyuTe. I also started teaching a class of adults and children at my Church in the art of Karate. I have come full circle in my Martial arts and am now at peace with it. What once was a desire to gain rank has become a realization that I have a lifetime to train and I am in no hurry. 

I have been to a couple of seminars with Oyata Sensie in the past couple of months and he is looking and doing great and passing on some great instruction to us, more than what I remember in the past. I had been reading several of the books mentioned on Okinawan karate and several magazine articles from different masters and they all express the same concerns that it all begins with proper basics. If we get into too much of a hurry to build upon a poor foundation we will not end up with a stable structure. That is the problem with a lot of modern martial artists, they want to go straight to the knock out techniques without first understanding the stances and  body positions and striking techniques required to successfully execute on a moving target without having to think about it. One of the best examples I heard from Oyata recently was that when a person begins to learn how to type they first have to think about where their fingers are and where they need to go to create words on a sheet of paper but after months or years of practice and use their fingers go where they are supposed to without even thinking about it. That is why we train as we do and what our goal should be to make words of life protection self defense out of the individual techiques found and studied in the katas without haveing to think about it. Also, Character development is an important part of RyuTe. Only those with proper character can be trusted to know when and how to use the more advanced techniques. In the hands of a good man they can be used for good, in the hands of a bad man they become dangerous to all. I am glad to be back training in Oyata Sensei's system.


----------



## JD Natan (Sep 5, 2022)

Zoran said:


> I'm posting this here as this system is more a traditional Karate than a Modern Kenpo system.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what Ryukyu kenpo is. Searching the web, I find different schools proclaiming to teach this system. I do know that it supposed to originate for the Ryukyu islands. But beyond that, I'm lost.
> 
> ...


Ryukyu Kenpo is the correct transliteration of the kanji. Kempo is the way Okinawans tend to pronounce it. Oyata studied with Shigeru Nakamura after, according to him, he had learned from Uhugusku no Tanmei and Mr. Wakinaguri. He also learned from a person that he was embarrassed to admit to. He was a student of Master Uehara though he tried to say that he was a "workout" partner with Uehara. Uehara put the lie to that and said he was a student, not a workout partner.
Oyata was known as a fighter in Okinawa and not for anything else. I was the first person that he showed his "self-defense" techniques to when he came the second time to the United States. I studied with him for almost ten years with weekly private lessons and group classes for the entire time. I was expected to protect him in the event of a challenge. After Bill Wiswell was removed from the organization I was the fourth highest in the organization. Unbeknownst to almost everyone, we remained in contact until my move to Israel made that impossible. I still teach his kata as he originally taught me and I teach the techniques according to his principles. Having learned under Tomas Connors and his Traco International Kenpo system, I was the only student of Oyata who carefully wrote down everything I had learned in my lessons and later that day taught my students in my dojo earning me the ire of his other students. You want to know more? Contact me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2022)

JD Natan said:


> Ryukyu Kenpo is the correct transliteration of the kanji. Kempo is the way Okinawans tend to pronounce it. Oyata studied with Shigeru Nakamura after, according to him, he had learned from Uhugusku no Tanmei and Mr. Wakinaguri. He also learned from a person that he was embarrassed to admit to. He was a student of Master Uehara though he tried to say that he was a "workout" partner with Uehara. Uehara put the lie to that and said he was a student, not a workout partner.
> Oyata was known as a fighter in Okinawa and not for anything else. I was the first person that he showed his "self-defense" techniques to when he came the second time to the United States. I studied with him for almost ten years with weekly private lessons and group classes for the entire time. I was expected to protect him in the event of a challenge. After Bill Wiswell was removed from the organization I was the fourth highest in the organization. Unbeknownst to almost everyone, we remained in contact until my move to Israel made that impossible. I still teach his kata as he originally taught me and I teach the techniques according to his principles. Having learned under Tomas Connors and his Traco International Kenpo system, I was the only student of Oyata who carefully wrote down everything I had learned in my lessons and later that day taught my students in my dojo earning me the ire of his other students. You want to know more? Contact me.


Just an FYI, you’re replying to a thread that is 19 years old. Likely few (if any) of the participants are still active on the forum.


----------

