# When do you start sparring?



## Herbie (Sep 10, 2016)

I  spent about 3 years doing Wing Chun.  I enjoyed it, and learned quite a bit.  One thing I always looked forward to, but never got to do,  was sparring.  My sifu talked about the importance of sparring, but said it was only done at higher ranks.  At the time I left the school, his most senior students had been there about 5 years, and were still not sparring.  When do most schools incorporate sparring?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2016)

At my school we do some type of sparring on day one of buying the protective gear.  If a person joined the class on Wednesday and wanted to spar the next day on Thursday, then we allow that student to participate.  The sooner we can get students to use Jow Ga kung fu in sparring, the better.


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2016)

can be the first day. depends what we are doing.


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## anerlich (Sep 11, 2016)

I'm assuming sparring means light to medium contact with protective gear (cup, mouthpiece, MMA gloves, shin pads). No deliberate head contact unless you have min 12 oz gloves and a reasonable amount of experience.

Maybe three months. Certainly not years. You need to develop a base of basic technique and control, but only a bit. It should be an exchange of technique, not a death match.

If you have previous MA experience, you can spar first class assuming the waiver is signed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2016)

I use sparring as "warm up" before the class start. So students don't have choice.

The advantages to spar on day one are:

- If a student doesn't like fighting, he won't waste time in that school.
- If teacher doesn't like to teach a student who doesn't like fighting, the teacher won't waste time on that student.
- A student will know what's missing on his body. Later on when teacher helps him to fill up those weakness, he will pay attention on it.
- ...

All swimming instructors will require their students to jump into water on day one.


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## anerlich (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All swimming instructors will require his students to get into water on day one.



They probably won't insist they jump off the ten meter board into 16 feet of water, though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2016)

anerlich said:


> They probably won't insist they jump off the ten meter board into 16 feet of water, though.


They won't teach their students how to swim on the dry land either.







I like to start sparring with:

- One person play offense.
- One person play defense (He can only dodge, block. He can not hit back).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2016)

Herbie said:


> his most senior students had been there about 5 years, and were still not sparring.


That's very sad indeed. You can only spar when you are young. You just don't have that many 5 years to waste.


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## anerlich (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to start sparring with:
> 
> - One person play offense.
> - One person play defense (He can only dodge, block. He can not hit back).



Well, that was my point. You are starting them off in the shallow end of the pool.

I prefer to tell them something like, both of you can only strike with the lead hand, to start, to reduce the variables. But, whatever.

Dry land swimming? Terence was throwing that at us 15 years ago, bro. 

There are some useful drills for ground grappling that look a lot like dry land swimming.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I use sparring as "warm up" before the class start. So students don't have choice.
> 
> The advantages to spar on day one are:
> 
> ...


I can see some benefits to day-one sparring. However, I can also see some drawbacks. Someone who is completely inept, but who wants to learn, can easily feel like there's no place for them. If you manage the expectation with them, then it probably isn't a problem often. I doubt there's much learning value in first-day sparring, but probably no harm in it, either. One big benefit of it would be for the folks who think they are better than they are.

The more I think about it, the more I want to figure out a way to get something like this in very early. I just have to figure out how to keep it safe and meaningful within what we do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's very sad indeed. You can only spar when you are young. You just don't have that many 5 years to waste.


Why can you only spar when you're young?


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## Kenposcholar (Sep 11, 2016)

Our American Kenpo school begins controlled sparring at 1 year and live (ground & standing) sparring at 2 years. After 4 years we begin freestyle fighting. However, this is all depending on the level that the student is at during the time of their training. Some students who dedicate themselves to the art more can be introduced to certain styles of training earlier than others.


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's very sad indeed. You can only spar when you are young.




So you suggest sparring on day one, but say you can only spar when you are young.

That entirely rules out teaching _mature_ students. My students are nearly all adults, ranging from their mid-thirties to early sixties, plus one guy in his early 20s and one neat old guy in his 80s (who is indeed is a bit old for sparring). But the others?

 Are you saying that if you are not young and fond of fighting that you have no place learning Wing Chun?


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Why can you only spar when you're young?



_Yeah._ I agree that you shouldn't be _fighting_ or going whole hog, heavy contact when you are old, but to  just say that you can't spar seems kinda _harsh_ ...at least to me since I'm 61.

...OK, Maybe in Judo and Shuai Chiau it's too rough on an older guy's body. But in WC? Or something like BJJ? I don't do BJJ but I know some guys my age that do. Seems like fun... Can't sparring be fun?


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## JR 137 (Sep 11, 2016)

You have to define sparring.  Is it free-sparring?  Full contact?  Non-contact?  Partner drill sparring?

To me, no sparring until 5 years in seems like the student only practiced basics against the air or even pads, and never had someone in front of him/her.  Even doing 1 steps where one person attacks at a specific time with a specific technique and at a specific target is a form of sparring.

If they did a ton of situational stuff, I'd be ok with it.  I've seen videos of Okinawan karate in Okinawa doing full contact situational type stuff that is indeed sparring but not the free-sparring that most people immediately think of.  YouTube the documentary Tee: The Spirit of Okinawan Karate.  There's a part where a British guy is going back and forth with his classmates and keeps getting hit.  That's definitely sparring to me.  Not free sparring, but sparring nonetheless.  If they're doing stuff like that and at that level of contact for 5 years, then there's nothing wrong IMO.  

Free-sparring is a relatively new thing in karate.  Mas Oyama was criticized by his peers for his full contact free sparring that went against the norm.  It may very well have been why he formed Kyokushin in the first place.  Gogen Yamaguchi of Goju Kai was also a pioneer in this regard.  But just because these guys brought free sparring into the mainstream doesn't mean no one before them trained hard and no one got hit pretty hard during training.

So 5 years until sparring?  Depends on what you're calling sparring.


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## wckf92 (Sep 11, 2016)

geezer said:


> ...when you are young.



"young" is subjective!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Why can you only spar when you're young?


I'm talking about "full contact" and not "light contact".

After you get married, get a full time job, have kids, have house and car payment, you don't want to get punched on the head. IMO, people should try to develop as much as fighting experience as they can when they are still young.


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## Danny T (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can only spar when you are young.


What is considered young?
I still spar.


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## Danny T (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about "full contact" and not "light contact".
> 
> After you get married, get a full time job, have kids, have house and car payment, you don't want to get punched on the head. IMO, people should try to develop as much as fighting experience as they can when they are still young.


We do spar full contact and we do spar hard, just not full power.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 11, 2016)

Herbie said:


> I  spent about 3 years doing Wing Chun.  I enjoyed it, and learned quite a bit.  One thing I always looked forward to, but never got to do,  was sparring.  My sifu talked about the importance of sparring, but said it was only done at higher ranks.  At the time I left the school, his most senior students had been there about 5 years, and were still not sparring.  When do most schools incorporate sparring?



Sparring is not one thing, there are any number of ways to do it including any number of things.  Sparring like you are prepping for a pro-mms fight?  A lot will never get there, but some form of sparring?  Day one.  That's why you're there and what you are there to do.

A 3 yr old wrestling with dad... that's sparring.  Anyone can spar, it's just a matter of drawing appropriate lines to ensure safety and make sure its fun.

Our youngest students are 3, and even they spar from their first class.  Within 20 mins of their orientation class they are sparring with a instructor.  In their first group class (2nd class) they spar with a instructor to get their white belt.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I can see some benefits to day-one sparring. However, I can also see some drawbacks. Someone who is completely inept, but who wants to learn, can easily feel like there's no place for them. If you manage the expectation with them, then it probably isn't a problem often. I doubt there's much learning value in first-day sparring, but probably no harm in it, either. One big benefit of it would be for the folks who think they are better than they are.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I want to figure out a way to get something like this in very early. I just have to figure out how to keep it safe and meaningful within what we do.


Sparring to learn makes it safe and sets the mindset that will help them later on.  If they go at sparring with them mindset of "I win" and "You lose" then it will get dangerous.  If they have the mindset that sparring is just a safe way to practice techniques, then they will actually spar so that they can actually practice techniques and make mistake without getting hurt.   Sparring to learn also makes it easier to encourage students who may be intimidated by the idea of getting hit or kicked hard.  Once they see that no one is trying to hurt the other then they will join.  The biggest benefit is that it helps to keep Egos under control as well by not focusing on who is the toughest.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about "full contact" and not "light contact".
> 
> After you get married, get a full time job, have kids, have house and car payment, you don't want to get punched on the head. IMO, people should try to develop as much as fighting experience as they can when they are still young.


I didn't want to get punched in the head when I was young, either. I make my living with my brain, and always have.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sparring to learn makes it safe and sets the mindset that will help them later on.  If they go at sparring with them mindset of "I win" and "You lose" then it will get dangerous.  If they have the mindset that sparring is just a safe way to practice techniques, then they will actually spar so that they can actually practice techniques and make mistake without getting hurt.   Sparring to learn also makes it easier to encourage students who may be intimidated by the idea of getting hit or kicked hard.  Once they see that no one is trying to hurt the other then they will join.  The biggest benefit is that it helps to keep Egos under control as well by not focusing on who is the toughest.


I guess it depends how you define sparring. To me, there's a competitive element even in very controlled sparring. You are trying to (hit me, throw me, clinch me, whatever) and I'm trying to stop you from doing it. How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that. If you're including what has been referred to as 1-step sparring, then definitely. Free sparring, however, I just don't see the value of it day one, since the student doesn't have anything to learn from yet.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that


 For adults and kids who are sparring for the first time, the only thing that Sifu wanted them to do were:
1. *Move around* - Moving around helped conditioning
2. *Keep their hands up* - This is the ultimate rule no mater the age or skill level. We here this even in professional fights
3.* Make Mistakes* - Mistakes during sparring are always welcome because it's the quickest way to know what a student needs to work on the most.

Non of these things require martial art skills. In addition not all students come in as a blank slate without any idea of how to spar.  Some have the movement down because maybe they have a sibling that they horseplay with.

The other benefit of sparring is that it helps the student reach a comfort level of what it's like to have fist coming their way. If you like I can show you videos of my Sifu coaching day one students sparring.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I guess it depends how you define sparring. To me, there's a competitive element even in very controlled sparring. You are trying to (hit me, throw me, clinch me, whatever) and I'm trying to stop you from doing it. How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that. If you're including what has been referred to as 1-step sparring, then definitely. Free sparring, however, I just don't see the value of it day one, since the student doesn't have anything to learn from yet.


I have 2 female classmates who took Jow Ga for 1 year with no sparring. They both did all of the drills. Their first time sparring was earlier this year and it was no better than it would have been if the started a year earlier.  

Free sparring provides a realistic reference that can be used to help visualize when doing forms.  If you have never  sparred or never been in a fight, the there's no way to accurately visualize an imaginary person attacking.  Free sparring helps to build those reference points. I can train basketball by only doing drills and shooting the ball and dribbling.  Non of that would be enough to prepare me to do well in an actual game.  If I'm placed in a game then I'll have reference points in which to build my skills on. 

Kung fu is like this where I'll explain a technique by saying "imagine someone is trying to punch your face." If the student has been punched at then they have a reference for what that looks like.  That reference will then make it easier to understand the technique and how it will work.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that.


Here is an example.

- A new student comes and wants to learn MA from you.
- You tell him that you are going to use "single leg" to take him down.
- No matter how hard that he may try to avoid, you use your "single leg" to take him down 10 times in a role.

For the next 6 months, when you teach "single leg" to him, he will pay all his attention on your teaching. After he has faith in your "single leg", he will also have faith in the other techniques that you will teach him later. Your student will know that he won't waste his money or training time. At least he will learn good "single leg" from you if nothing else.

My University of Texas at Austin Chinese wrestling team had defeated the Ohio State University at Columbus Chinese wrestling team 2 years in a role (1983 and 1984).

To "spar/wrestle" on day one is like the "test drive" before you buy a new car. If you like it, you will buy it. If you don't, you will go to another car dealer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I didn't want to get punched in the head when I was young, either. I make my living with my brain, and always have.


This is why when I get older, I have spent all my effort trying to develop some "anti-striking" strategies. As long as I can protect my head well, my body can still take "full contact" even with old age.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 12, 2016)

I think it depends on what the goal of the Sifu is, maybe. For example in the school that I used to attend, he wanted everyone to develop their techniques to the point where what they did "always" looked like wing chun because he talked about how people will train for years in Karate or Tae Kwon Do but then, when they spar, it looks like "generic kickboxing." (His term, not mine, hence the quotes.) So he wanted everyone to be a good "Wing Chun practitioner," to get to a decent level in Chi Sao before we started doing sparring. Now I go to a new school, and I have not asked him what he does other than Chi Sao because, in his eyes, I am still a new student even though I've been studying for a long time. I want to develop a stronger Sifu-Student relationship before I jump into all these questions. (I don't know why I feel I HAVE to do it that way, but it is what it is. I feel it is more respectful to wait a bit rather than to bombard him with questions only a few months in.)


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## Herbie (Sep 12, 2016)

Thanks for the responses and the discussion.  To Wingchun100, my former sifu's approach was similar to what you stated: he wanted their sparring to look like Wing Chun, so lots of reps and training before sparring.  That's why I posted the question, to see if that's a WC thing, or just his approach.  Sounds like opinions vary.  Surprise!  
Thanks again, everybody.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I think it depends on what the goal of the Sifu is, maybe. For example in the school that I used to attend, he wanted everyone to develop their techniques to the point where what they did "always" looked like wing chun because he talked about how people will train for years in Karate or Tae Kwon Do but then, when they spar, it looks like "generic kickboxing." (His term, not mine, hence the quotes.) So he wanted everyone to be a good "Wing Chun practitioner," to get to a decent level in Chi Sao before we started doing sparring. Now I go to a new school, and I have not asked him what he does other than Chi Sao because, in his eyes, I am still a new student even though I've been studying for a long time. I want to develop a stronger Sifu-Student relationship before I jump into all these questions. (I don't know why I feel I HAVE to do it that way, but it is what it is. I feel it is more respectful to wait a bit rather than to bombard him with questions only a few months in.)


The generic kickboxing is often seen in people who do not practice technique during free sparring. If a person has the mindset of always having to win,  then he or she will only use the techniques they are comfortable with so they can win or out do their opponent. The end result is that the student doesn't get beyond basic punching and kicking.  In my opinion the worst part is claiming to train in an art and being a bad representation of the art, simply because the person didn't do any techniques from the art.


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## KPM (Sep 12, 2016)

^^^^ That goes directly back to one of my points on the "Wing Chun Sparring" thread!    Do you see sparring as a way to look for holes in your martial art training and therefore improve on your training?  Or do you see sparring as an end in itself and your training is aimed at being able to win at sparring?  In other words...is sparring just a phase of your overall training and meant to assist that training?  Or is being good at sparring your main goal?  These are two different mindsets and can lead to two very different results.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ That goes directly back to one of my points on the "Wing Chun Sparring" thread!    Do you see sparring as a way to look for holes in your martial art training and therefore improve on your training?  Or do you see sparring as an end in itself and your training is aimed at being able to win at sparring?  In other words...is sparring just a phase of your overall training and meant to assist that training?  Or is being good at sparring your main goal?  These are two different mindsets and can lead to two very different results.


I see sparing as part of training that's required in order to understand how to apply techniques in a "real fight." Sparring allows me to grasp and better understand how people attack and how different systems approach fighting in the context of me being on the receiving end of their attacks.  I always spar to learn and never to win. My sparring performance can vary from match to match depending on what techniques I'm trying to learn how to deploy.  The more understanding I have of a technique, the better I look.  If I'm learning how to apply a new technique then I look like a noob and eat a lot of punches. I'll keep eating those punches until I learn what I'm doing wrong.  If I eat too many then I'll take a break from getting hit and go back to the drawing board to see what I'm missing or not understanding. 

To give you an example:  This video is from 2015 and I look like crap.  This video is from 2014 and I look skilled in comparison.  The truth is that my fighting skills were better in 2015 than in 2014.  Those moves that I was doing in 2014 were learned to a high degree by 2015 and because of that, I wanted to use the sparring time to get better at some of the techniques that I wasn't good at.  Now it's 2016 and I learned those techniques that I was trying in 2015.  I was able to get so good with the techniques that I was doing in the 2014 video, that I'm afraid that my sparring partners from other systems will not able to get out of the way if I were to use them now.  If they can partially block the technique then I'll throw it.  If they can't block it at all then I won't use it because of safety issues.

Here's a video of me sparring called "This is How I Learn How to Do Kung Fu" You can see me try multiple times to apply various techniques.  You'll also notice that my fighting style is different compared to the 2014 and 2015 videos.

Normally what people do is get comfortable with what they do in  "2014" and still do the same thing in 2015, 2016, and they will do the same thing in 2017.  This means they will never learn anything beyond that comfort zone. The first things that martial artist get comfortable with are basic kicks and punches and they never learn more because they are too busy trying to win and not trying to learn.  I'm not saying that everyone is like this. but there are more that do spar to win than those who don't.



KPM said:


> Or is being good at sparring your main goal


My only goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu.  I don't care if I win or lose because it's not important to me.  I want people to easily recognize my kung fu when I spar.  The reason why I don't care if I win or lose is because in order for me to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu, I'll need to be able to successfully apply the Jow Ga techniques I learn and use.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2016)

KPM said:


> In other words...is sparring just a phase of your overall training and meant to assist that training?


If I didn't care about learning how to use Jow Ga Kung Fu in a fight then sparring would hold very little value to me.  For me it's something that cannot be separated from my training because of the goal that I have set for myself.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2016)

It's easy to fix the problem that "fighting doesn't look like training". The simplest solution is to force your students to use just 1 WC technique for the next 6 months and *nothing else*.

In WC for example, you can have a match that one can only win that round by using "Tan Da - block with one arm while punch with another arm". A round will stop after a valid "Tan Da" is executed". Test this for 15 rounds and whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner.

If you have this kind of sparring for 6 months, after every students are good in "Tan Da", they will fight like WC for the rest of their life. After 6 months, you then move into a different WC technique (or principle).

I have used this method in wrestling. Instead of using "Tan Da", I used "head lock", "single leg", "under hook", "over hook", "bear hug", or ...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> For adults and kids who are sparring for the first time, the only thing that Sifu wanted them to do were:
> 1. *Move around* - Moving around helped conditioning
> 2. *Keep their hands up* - This is the ultimate rule no mater the age or skill level. We here this even in professional fights
> 3.* Make Mistakes* - Mistakes during sparring are always welcome because it's the quickest way to know what a student needs to work on the most.
> ...


Okay, that makes sense. I could see having some really soft sparring to let them get moving, let them get over the fear of the incoming fist a bit, and get a feel for what they can do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have 2 female classmates who took Jow Ga for 1 year with no sparring. They both did all of the drills. Their first time sparring was earlier this year and it was no better than it would have been if the started a year earlier.
> 
> Free sparring provides a realistic reference that can be used to help visualize when doing forms.  If you have never  sparred or never been in a fight, the there's no way to accurately visualize an imaginary person attacking.  Free sparring helps to build those reference points. I can train basketball by only doing drills and shooting the ball and dribbling.  Non of that would be enough to prepare me to do well in an actual game.  If I'm placed in a game then I'll have reference points in which to build my skills on.
> 
> Kung fu is like this where I'll explain a technique by saying "imagine someone is trying to punch your face." If the student has been punched at then they have a reference for what that looks like.  That reference will then make it easier to understand the technique and how it will work.


I can see that. I think our heavy use of one-steps (with increasing intensity of attack) helps with some of those things, but I can certainly see where sparring would give those reference points, and perhaps with less bias.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is an example.
> 
> - A new student comes and wants to learn MA from you.
> - You tell him that you are going to use "single leg" to take him down.
> ...


I think this comes down more to how I use the term "sparring". It seems I use it more narrowly than most, and that colors my reading of posts that use the term.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I think it depends on what the goal of the Sifu is, maybe. For example in the school that I used to attend, he wanted everyone to develop their techniques to the point where what they did "always" looked like wing chun because he talked about how people will train for years in Karate or Tae Kwon Do but then, when they spar, it looks like "generic kickboxing." (His term, not mine, hence the quotes.) So he wanted everyone to be a good "Wing Chun practitioner," to get to a decent level in Chi Sao before we started doing sparring. Now I go to a new school, and I have not asked him what he does other than Chi Sao because, in his eyes, I am still a new student even though I've been studying for a long time. I want to develop a stronger Sifu-Student relationship before I jump into all these questions. (I don't know why I feel I HAVE to do it that way, but it is what it is. I feel it is more respectful to wait a bit rather than to bombard him with questions only a few months in.)


Just a note on that last part - that depends a lot on the instructor. I know instructors who don't like students to question them until they get to advanced student ranks. I like questions from my students - even the challenging ones - because 1) it tells me THAT they are thinking, 2) it tells me WHAT they are thinking, and 3) it gets me thinking.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I can see that. I think our heavy use of one-steps (with increasing intensity of attack) helps with some of those things, but I can certainly see where sparring would give those reference points, and perhaps with less bias.


Keep in mind that that we spar to learn so there is never any pressure to win. If you watch some of the sparring videos on the website you will hear things like "sorry" if we think we injured or partner or you'll hear the advanced students give praise during sparring when a students gets a technique right or when they make an effort to do a technique even if they fail. 
I'm not sure how common this is for other schools.


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## anerlich (Sep 13, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure how common this is for other schools.



I would hope it was common. Few other approaches make any sense.


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## anerlich (Sep 13, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Just a note on that last part - that depends a lot on the instructor. I know instructors who don't like students to question them until they get to advanced student ranks. I like questions from my students - even the challenging ones - because 1) it tells me THAT they are thinking, 2) it tells me WHAT they are thinking, and 3) it gets me thinking.



I've only really spent time with two instructors, out of dozens I've taken classes with, who did not welcome intelligent questions.

A Jiu Jitsu instructor (perhaps Dave Camarillo?) said in a podcast something like:

It's OK to ask the instructor technical (how-to) questions about a technique he/she is showing straight away and at any time thereafter.

But don't QUESTION a technique (as in be critical or look for reasons why and places where it won't work, or try to improve it) until you've spent a reasonable amount of time trying to make it work.

Quite a few Jiu Jitsu instructors (myself included) don't like to teach counters to particular techniques until the student base has a reasonable facility with the technique itself. It's hard to learn a technique well in rolling if the other guy is always countering it. Conversely, if no one in the class learns the first technique really well because they are always getting countered, the counters don't have to be developed to a high degree. So the gym entire ends up with a wishy washy technical base. Not what we want.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 13, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> we spar to learn so there is never any pressure to win. ... I'm not sure how common this is for other schools.


This idea may not work for wrestling. In wrestling, you are either standing, or you are down. When you are down, it's your opponent who takes you down and you did not go down yourself.

The "pressure" that you try not to be taken down by your opponent will always be there.


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## anerlich (Sep 14, 2016)

There will always be "pressure" not to get hit in pugilistic sparring as well.

It depends what you mean by "win". If you want to avoid takedowns at all costs, just run away for the whole round. Or hide in the toilet. If you want to learn to counter takedowns, you have to let your partner at least try to take you down. If you get taken down, hopefully you get the opportunity to see the holes in your defence.

You win or you learn, and you usually learn more from losing than winning. The sparring environment should allow you to experiment without paying for your failures with serious injury or ridicule.

Ending up on the ground isn't seen as losing in some styles of grappling. People will even go there by choice.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Ending up on the ground isn't seen as losing in some styles of grappling. People will even go there by choice.


You are right. This guy will love to be taken down. I'll keep this clip forever just to remind myself, "You can't take someone down if he is already down."


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## anerlich (Sep 14, 2016)

Link doesn't work. I assume it's not of great import to the discussion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Link doesn't work. I assume it's not of great import to the discussion.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> You are right. This guy will love to be taken down. I'll keep this clip forever just to remind myself, "You can't take someone down if he is already down."



I really like this clip. It shows how ridiculous when MA turns into "sport" can be.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 14, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I really like this clip. It shows how ridiculous when MA turns into "sport" can be.
> 
> http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif


It is still not working, but is it safe to assume it is the (I think BJJ world finals) were one guy goes on the group and tries to scoot to get the other guy to eventually just fall into his guard?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> It is still not working, but is it safe to assume it is the (I think BJJ world finals) were one guy goes on the group and tries to scoot to get the other guy to eventually just fall into his guard?


That's the one. I always wonder what if his opponent just kicks into his groin?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Keep in mind that that we spar to learn so there is never any pressure to win. If you watch some of the sparring videos on the website you will hear things like "sorry" if we think we injured or partner or you'll hear the advanced students give praise during sparring when a students gets a technique right or when they make an effort to do a technique even if they fail.
> I'm not sure how common this is for other schools.


I have been learning some new approaches to sparring from some of the posts here on MT. Somehow, I've always kept a more win-lose mindset on sparring and randori, a mindset which shows up nowhere else in my training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2016)

anerlich said:


> I've only really spent time with two instructors, out of dozens I've taken classes with, who did not welcome intelligent questions.
> 
> A Jiu Jitsu instructor (perhaps Dave Camarillo?) said in a podcast something like:
> 
> ...



I'm even okay with new students asking those questions. I'm not sure that's better or worse than the view you suggest, though. I just like to have them thinking, and to see how they react to the response. I have a Shotokan-trained student who early on would say things like, "That wouldn't work on a Shotokan man, because..." And he'd have a point. Then I'd point out to him that someone moving that way wouldn't get themselves into position for the technique, so we don't have to worry about whether it works on them or not. These explanations seemed to help him wrap his head around the situational effectiveness of some of the techniques. If he had repeatedly come out of those discussions with a mindset that the technique was flawed (rather than acknowledging that it just wasn't appropriate for the scenario he was suggesting), I'd eventually have suggested he find a better fit for himself. His questions challenging the technique give him a chance to learn a bit differently. They also help me, because he sees things I don't (my Shotokan background was many years ago, and not nearly as deep as his).



> Quite a few Jiu Jitsu instructors (myself included) don't like to teach counters to particular techniques until the student base has a reasonable facility with the technique itself. It's hard to learn a technique well in rolling if the other guy is always countering it. Conversely, if no one in the class learns the first technique really well because they are always getting countered, the counters don't have to be developed to a high degree. So the gym entire ends up with a wishy washy technical base. Not what we want.



This is a good point. I'll need to look at where I'm teaching counters, to see if I'm bringing them in too early. I have been teaching them earlier, so folks could understand the transitions to the next technique better (know the counter, feel the counter early, bypass the counter), but it may have some long-term problems. I'm wondering if knowing the counters early might also encourage them to NOT be resistive, since they have to avoid using the counters in most drills. This gives me a good idea for a curriculum update I'm working on: teaching counters to techniques only after the student passes a test on those techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This idea may not work for wrestling. In wrestling, you are either standing, or you are down. When you are down, it's your opponent who takes you down and you did not go down yourself.
> 
> The "pressure" that you try not to be taken down by your opponent will always be there.


I think the point JGW was making was that you give up the need to win, in order to work on some weakness. So, for wrestling, it might mean practicing leading with the leg you normally wouldn't, or committing to not using a single-leg takedown if that's your favorite move, or such, so you put pressure on areas that need development. By doing this, you give up some of your advantage (and thus, some of your chance to win) so that you can learn more.


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## swivel63 (Oct 9, 2016)

i trained wing chun for three years and the closest we ever got to sparring was me and a training partner did free chi sao.  basically just rolling, then doing whatever we wanted.  it was ok.


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## drop bear (Oct 9, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's the one. I always wonder what if his opponent just kicks into his groin?



They knee bar you then someone does that weird slappy back thing that does absolutely nothing to help with groin pain.


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## drop bear (Oct 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think the point JGW was making was that you give up the need to win, in order to work on some weakness. So, for wrestling, it might mean practicing leading with the leg you normally wouldn't, or committing to not using a single-leg takedown if that's your favorite move, or such, so you put pressure on areas that need development. By doing this, you give up some of your advantage (and thus, some of your chance to win) so that you can learn more.



No you still need to win.  Giving up an advantage shouldn't change that. 

Like sparring guys who are better than you.  Ok you probably won't win but you should spar as if you can win.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2016)

drop bear said:


> No you still need to win.  Giving up an advantage shouldn't change that.
> 
> Like sparring guys who are better than you.  Ok you probably won't win but you should spar as if you can win.


In that scenario, sure. But if I'm sparring to see what happens if I always stay just outside my punching range until I'm ready to punch, for instance, I'll stick to that strategy regardless of whether I'm winning or losing. Of course, I'll contest as much as I can within those parameters, but I'm perhaps giving up enough to cause me to lose, even to a less-skilled opponent. Nonetheless, I'll stick to that limitation rather than win.

As I type that, I'm not sure you and I are saying different things here. Within that limitation, I fight as if I could win, and still try to win, just not with every tool I could possibly use to win (because I've placed a limitation on myself). Of course, if I'm sparring a much less skilled student, I'm not really doing much to try to win - I'm doing what I can to challenge the student without smothering them with stuff they're not ready for.


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## drop bear (Oct 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> In that scenario, sure. But if I'm sparring to see what happens if I always stay just outside my punching range until I'm ready to punch, for instance, I'll stick to that strategy regardless of whether I'm winning or losing. Of course, I'll contest as much as I can within those parameters, but I'm perhaps giving up enough to cause me to lose, even to a less-skilled opponent. Nonetheless, I'll stick to that limitation rather than win.
> 
> As I type that, I'm not sure you and I are saying different things here. Within that limitation, I fight as if I could win, and still try to win, just not with every tool I could possibly use to win (because I've placed a limitation on myself). Of course, if I'm sparring a much less skilled student, I'm not really doing much to try to win - I'm doing what I can to challenge the student without smothering them with stuff they're not ready for.



So now you have an idea of when I say fighting to win in sparring essentially means.  It does not have to be an ego spar.






But you are also not short changing yourself or you team mate by only being fifty percent there.

Not sparring to win protects you from ever really loosing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So now you have an idea of when I say fighting to win in sparring essentially means.  It does not have to be an ego spar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the way you expressed that. It's not the way I've explained it, but I'm stealing at least part of that to explain self-limited sparring from now on.


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## Buka (Oct 10, 2016)

I hope to never spar again. Sparred for too long, too often, and every bit of it was fun. (it really was) But I'm just tired of sparring, tired of getting hit, even more tired of hitting other people. I never really enjoyed hitting people, but it was just part of the work, I'm sure you guys know how it is.

Never would have suspected I'd feel this way, but I do. I'm just going to watch from now on. 
Gotta' get me some popcorn.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2016)

Buka said:


> I hope to never spar again. Sparred for too long, too often, and every bit of it was fun. (it really was) But I'm just tired of sparring, tired of getting hit, even more tired of hitting other people. I never really enjoyed hitting people, but it was just part of the work, I'm sure you guys know how it is.
> 
> Never would have suspected I'd feel this way, but I do. I'm just going to watch from now on.
> Gotta' get me some popcorn.


I feel ya', Buka. I've never enjoyed hitting other people. I think that's why I never got into sport arts. For most of my training I avoided it where I could (and that wasn't hard). Now I seek it out, but still prefer to keep it to a functional minimum.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2016)

The reason why I don't spar to win is because then you'll just stick with the techniques that will allow you to win. If the goal is to win, then why work on a technique that you aren't good at?  If the goal is to win, then working on techniques that you aren't good at are just going to make you lose.  This is why we often see martial artists revert back to basic kickboxing skills instead of using the other techniques within the system.

If you spar to learn then the focus is to learn how to use the techniques.  If you spar to learn how to increase your ability to successfully execute various techniques, then right away you know that you'll fail often at the start, but as you become more familiar with the use of the technique you begin to become more successful with the technique. All of this only happens when you aren't trying to win.  

After all why would you use a technique that you aren't good at if you are trying to win?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The reason why I don't spar to win is because then you'll just stick with the techniques that will allow you to win. If the goal is to win, then why work on a technique that you aren't good at?  If the goal is to win, then working on techniques that you aren't good at are just going to make you lose.  This is why we often see martial artists revert back to basic kickboxing skills instead of using the other techniques within the system.
> 
> If you spar to learn then the focus is to learn how to use the techniques.  If you spar to learn how to increase your ability to successfully execute various techniques, then right away you know that you'll fail often at the start, but as you become more familiar with the use of the technique you begin to become more successful with the technique. All of this only happens when you aren't trying to win.
> 
> After all why would you use a technique that you aren't good at if you are trying to win?


I think Drop Bear's explanation earlier fits with what you're saying. His point was what I'd term a philosophical one: within whatever limitations you put on yourself, you do your best to win. So, if I decide to defend myself only with my left hand (strong-side injury simulation), then I do everything I can to win within that limitation. The same goes for working within your style, as that's just another limitation you put on yourself...until it's no longer a limitation.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think Drop Bear's explanation earlier fits with what you're saying. His point was what I'd term a philosophical one: within whatever limitations you put on yourself, you do your best to win. So, if I decide to defend myself only with my left hand (strong-side injury simulation), then I do everything I can to win within that limitation. The same goes for working within your style, as that's just another limitation you put on yourself...until it's no longer a limitation.


Ok.that makes sense.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think Drop Bear's explanation earlier fits with what you're saying. His point was what I'd term a philosophical one: within whatever limitations you put on yourself, you do your best to win. So, if I decide to defend myself only with my left hand (strong-side injury simulation), then I do everything I can to win within that limitation. The same goes for working within your style, as that's just another limitation you put on yourself...until it's no longer a limitation.


 
Obviously this means it will take you much longer than the person without such limitations to be any good, but it is still possible.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 11, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The reason why I don't spar to win is because then you'll just stick with the techniques that will allow you to win. If the goal is to win, then why work on a technique that you aren't good at?  If the goal is to win, then working on techniques that you aren't good at are just going to make you lose.  This is why we often see martial artists revert back to basic kickboxing skills instead of using the other techniques within the system.
> 
> If you spar to learn then the focus is to learn how to use the techniques.  If you spar to learn how to increase your ability to successfully execute various techniques, then right away you know that you'll fail often at the start, but as you become more familiar with the use of the technique you begin to become more successful with the technique. All of this only happens when you aren't trying to win.
> 
> After all why would you use a technique that you aren't good at if you are trying to win?


 
Because you need to patch up those weak areas.

Let's say for example that a WC practitioner is not good at a technique known as biu sao, which is the most effective tool to use when someone on the street throws a wide "haymaker" type of hook. Instead this practitioner tries using a tan sao. From my own experience, tan sao will not work to block such a punch. Therefore if your biu sao is weak and you want to be able to stop that attack, then you NEED to work on that technique.

Just my humble opinion, of course. I do feel that each martial artist should work on whatever they naturally, instinctively do well in their art. After all, that is what helps them put their stamp on it and make the style "their own."


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 11, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Obviously this means it will take you much longer than the person without such limitations to be any good, but it is still possible.


Actually, putting the limitation on yourself causes you to have to work in ways that you otherwise wouldn't and can help you progress faster. I've taken black belts and forced them to do entire classes using only one hand at a time. It changes their understanding of the techniques, forces them to do a better job using their body (instead of their arm strength) to steal balance, etc. Without that limitation, they use their sheer array of tools to hide some deficiencies.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 11, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Because you need to patch up those weak areas.
> 
> Let's say for example that a WC practitioner is not good at a technique known as biu sao, which is the most effective tool to use when someone on the street throws a wide "haymaker" type of hook. Instead this practitioner tries using a tan sao. From my own experience, tan sao will not work to block such a punch. Therefore if your biu sao is weak and you want to be able to stop that attack, then you NEED to work on that technique.
> 
> Just my humble opinion, of course. I do feel that each martial artist should work on whatever they naturally, instinctively do well in their art. After all, that is what helps them put their stamp on it and make the style "their own."


Yes, and that fits with the discussion nicely. One way to get them to use their biu sao would be to take away tan sao during sparring. That limitation puts them at a disadvantage (I'm assuming they like tan sao because it works against other stuff, which they now have to find another way to defend), but it will force them to pay more attention to that weak biu sao (and probably to something else that helps fill the gap left by the prohibited tan sao).


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## marques (Oct 11, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, putting the limitation on yourself causes you to have to work in ways that you otherwise wouldn't and can help you progress faster. I've taken black belts and forced them to do entire classes using only one hand at a time. It changes their understanding of the techniques, forces them to do a better job using their body (instead of their arm strength) to steal balance, etc. Without that limitation, they use their sheer array of tools to hide some deficiencies.


Sorry, I didn't follow the discussion until this point, but I like it.  And a clear example is Boxing vs Thai Boxing. A boxer is more likely to have good punches than a Thai boxer, just because the Thai boxer have more options/alternatives. I also limit myself in sparring if I feel my oponent is having enough, so it keeps challenging (interesting) for both.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I do feel that each martial artist should work on whatever they naturally, instinctively do well in their art.


 this is the starting point of the training that I do with student's in sparring classes.  We start off making sure the techniques that feel natural to us are solid. Then we start to add on some of the other techniques that are weaker or techniques that we don't know how to use.

The only difference from what I do and what gpseymour does is that I don't take anything away techniques or force the use of a technique.  Sometimes the things I know how to do well can be used to set up and create opportunities to use the techniques that we don't know how to use well.


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