# Against striker, kicker, wrestler, knife, stick, chain, multiple opponents



## Istvan (Feb 13, 2017)

Hi Guys, 

I wish to examine and get your thoughts on certain topics 1-7. 
In Our Systema we ask students to practise and show their work of the following: (as part of their exam)

1. work against one striker (e.g. boxer type)
2. work against one kicker (e.g. kick boxer, taekwondo guy)
3. work against wrestler (e.g. turkish wrestling, judo, BJJ, Sambo )
4. work against attacker with knife (thrusts and cuts)
5. work against attacker with stick (e.g. a longer stick like boom stick
6. work against attacker with chain (not against face in our practise)
7 work against multiple opponents ( start with 2 and  pressure tests 1 to 3 person)

We all understand that no one will choose purely one of the 7 to attack  with but lets assume that. We also know no 100% right or wrong answer as everything depends on the slit second judgement in the given situation. (and depending on other factors like, your weight, height, strength, speed, flexibility skills, mind set etc etc)
However never late to widen our understanding and put new `tools` into our toolbox.

Please give your examples to Do`s and Don`ts  on each items with their NUMBERS if you can, it will be easier to separate who talk about what topics. 
If the forum rules allows and you have a good supporting video example please share with your thoughts and explanation. 


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teaching and exam methodology taken from Systema Talanov
www.rmasystema.co.uk


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## marques (Feb 13, 2017)

It looks a serious exam.

My first question is, do you have real boxers/kickboxers/knifers... (someone who trained it 5+ years) or just someone who pretends to be?
Point 7 is great to see _how long_ the student last. Or, can the student run away from that situation? More than that may be too ambitious...

Knife defence example:




Just to pulverise our expectations...


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## Istvan (Feb 13, 2017)

good question


fast answer:  most time its only `someone who pretend to be ...` .

All our students came from different fighting art  (martial arts). My finding show when you practise long time only one art the previous knowledge, skills slowly but surely start diluting to your recent art.



"It looks a serious exam."
Supposed to be but as we discussed above the level always differs from the actual exams group participants.


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## marques (Feb 13, 2017)

Istvan said:


> fast answer:  most time its only `someone who pretend to be ...` .
> 
> All our students came from different fighting art  (martial arts). My finding show when you practise long time only one art the previous knowledge, skills slowly but surely start diluting to your recent art.


I imagined that... because of course it is the most convenient. But someone from the outside (even if you have good ones inside) would be more impartial (you don't want to prove Systema doesn't work, do you?). And perhaps easier since the outsiders don't know your tricks (better prediction of a real encounter).

But I know it is difficult to find the right people at the right price. And, at the end, we work with what we have. Anyway, I appreciate the concept. (I was observed by a few while training, did a light sparring, then and hard sparring as 'final exam', only.)


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## Istvan (Feb 13, 2017)

I absolutely agree but as you said "... I know it is difficult to find the right people at the right price. " specially if people arrives from different countries to a 3rd country (to Russia) to make it happen.

Sure the closest to reality test would be to work with each of those guys who are expert on their field.
Though I`m hoping our fellow expert martial artists wouldn`t attach us in a real life confrontation. 

Back in mid `90s when i was young and egoist (few years wing tsun practise behind) I was able to hold back ~5 guys who attacked me and my friend. My friend wasn`t experienced at all and got beaten up, I had no punch or kick but delivered few back. Those guys wanted to make troubles but luckily had no professional experience.

Since then i had few fights here and there and can say in my own experience guys who initiated fight were or drunk or attacked by fear or by their aggression. Against those most time an above average experience regular practise and clear mind set helps. 
Since i live in London many things changed, more brain washed, crazy, fanatics etc hanging around on the streets day and nights. They are dangerous as no chance to predict anything. It need to adapt on the line and deliver the best job as possible.


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## Headhunter (Feb 13, 2017)

Istvan said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I wish to examine and get your thoughts on certain topics 1-7.
> In Our Systema we ask students to practise and show their work of the following: (as part of their exam)
> ...


Well I mean what level is this for because if you ask a beginner to do this they won't be able to do much of it and nor should you're meant to be teaching them not just throwing them in and say right fight a guy with a knife


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2017)

The solutions are all pretty generic. So long as you have your basics, like defences. Hands up,good sprawls,good foot work and good limb control,good striking.

That is going to give you the best chance.


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## Buka (Feb 14, 2017)

I think the greatest attribute a fighter can have is adaptability. I also think that one is better off using principles instead of techniques, as techniques sometimes change.

That being said, I'll break it down for fun.

1. Boxer. It helps if the defender has actually boxed. He would have a better feel for what boxing is and isn't. Fighting a boxer? Take him down, tackle him, immediately. Any kind of take down that you actually have success with. Or - sweep him (then take advantage of that). Boxers hate to get swept, it is not part of boxing, it is not something that's been part of his time in boxing. Clinch and hip throw (watch out for head butts) the only drawback to hip throwing a boxer is on Judgement Day, the guy working the gates is going to say _"You hip threw a boxer? You know that was mean, right?"_

2. Kicker. - Get in his kitchen, right there inside his shirt, smother him, allow him no kicks whatsoever. you'll still get hit, you're in a fight after all, but do not allow the kicker to utilize his longer, stronger legs. Or he'll kill you.

3. Stay away. Utilize that sprawl you've trained. Haven't trained it? Time to start. Hopefully,you have a table of submissions in your arsenal, you're going to need them.

4. Run. If you have not trained with a knife, now is not the time to start. If you have, you should have yours out by now.

5. Picture yourself as a popsicle. Stay away from guys with sticks.  Guys with sticks are crazy.

6. If he was nice enough to actually bring the chain you should be nice enough to wrap him up in it.

7. Move in, never move away. Ever (unless you're running) As you move in, angle-in as it applies to their position relative to each other. Create chaos, chaos it is your friend. Landscape, landscape, landscape. While striking, it's good to remember Vision, wind, limbs as an order of preference if, and when, presented to you.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2017)

Buka said:


> Boxers hate to get swept,



They also hate to get kicked



Buka said:


> his longer, stronger legs



Your attacker won't necessarily have longer legs, stronger most likely but not longer.



Buka said:


> 4. Run. If you have not trained with a knife, now is not the time to start. If you have, you should have yours out by now.



Run anyway, whether you are trained or not. Even if you have trained, knife fights are messy you will get hurt even if you defeat your attacker so just get the hell out of the situation unless you really can't escape.


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## Juany118 (Feb 14, 2017)

Istvan said:


> good question
> 
> 
> fast answer:  most time its only `someone who pretend to be ...` .
> ...


While convenient I think having people pretending to be one of the above is problematic as it can create false impressions.  As an example I often see people who are told to "be a boxer" and then to throw a hook punch throw what I call a "good night Irene" haymaker.  A good hook punch is going to be A LOT tighter, thus strike more quickly.  The same principle applies to grappling arts, in general.  First most people have an adversion to getting "up close and personal".  This makes them hesitate when they say go in for a two legged takedown.  Then, even if they pulled the take down off, the transition to a mount/submission is going to be equally sloppy and likely just read wrong.

Now the way you have it set up is better than nothing, I am just concerned it creates a false impression in the eyes of the student testing.

That said...


1. work against one striker (e.g. boxer type): figure out first what your strength is?  Kicking, punching, grappling etc.  If kicking maintain range, if not sweeping, kick to the legs.  If punching GET IN THERE fast.  You have essentially started a war of attrition, if grappling, focus on take downs
2. work against one kicker (e.g. kick boxer, taekwondo guy): get inside their kicking range ASAP.  If they are decent at maintaining range be prepared to deal with a hit.
3. work against wrestler (e.g. turkish wrestling, judo, BJJ, Sambo ): maintain distance
4. work against attacker with knife (thrusts and cuts): if you can run.  If not you have to go FAST to controlling that knife arm with both hands.  Try to use their body to strip it.  If they are good at circling so you can't do that take that knife to the ground and use the ground to strip it.
5. work against attacker with stick (e.g. a longer stick like boom stick) run.  If not run get inside the arch of that stick ASAP so you are dealing with the arm.
6. work against attacker with chain (not against face in our practise) same as above.
7 work against multiple opponents ( start with 2 and pressure tests 1 to 3 person). Try to maneuver so you don't have all three able to attack you at once, make them get in each other's way.  Barring that you need to focus on em one at a time imo and just try to disable them ASAP.
Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> They also hate to get kicked
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have a few decent boxers that I have sparred kick boxing and MMA with. One point was he thought he was safe when he lowered his head. Of course he got face kneed for that. 

Otherwise he did pretty well.


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Try to maneuver so you don't have all three able to attack you at once, make them get in each other's way.



Does this ever actually work?

I am trying to think if I have ever been able to out maneuver three guys into a line in a fight. 

Just seems ambitious.


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well I mean what level is this for because if you ask a beginner to do this they won't be able to do much of it and nor should you're meant to be teaching them not just throwing them in and say right fight a guy with a knife



ooh, sorry i missed your point. I was thinking you mean the 7 different attacker 5+ years on their field (which would be awesome too)
I meant exam for those who are get enough experienced in Systema and getting ready to take exam to be able to teach (some has their teachers referral some going to test them-self without that). 
However on a higher level all students need to get prepared to these. (of course any level should study their own level stuff). 
We have 3 stages in our classes in methodology.
Static for get basic understanding
slow dynamics for get the right body mechanical stuff 
fast dynamics where students can test their comfort zone level and above that


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The solutions are all pretty generic. So long as you have your basics, like defences. Hands up,good sprawls,good foot work and good limb control,good striking.
> 
> That is going to give you the best chance.




thank for your input. You are right with that.
but kinda missed my question then:
I try to get your opinions about what you would do if person 1 (boxer type), person 2 etc etc come at you.
sorry if my question was confusing :/


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

Buka said:


> I think the greatest attribute a fighter can have is adaptability. I also think that one is better off using principles instead of techniques, as techniques sometimes change.
> 
> That being said, I'll break it down for fun.
> 
> ...




hehe, i appreciate your sense of humor  
and in the humorous answers, some tactics have their spots and values. thx


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Run anyway, whether you are trained or not. Even if you have trained, knife fights are messy you will get hurt even if you defeat your attacker so just get the hell out of the situation unless you really can't escape.




Tez3: 
thanks to your answers
regarding knife situation (or any object involve situation) sure the best answer to get escape as far as you can. but what if not? 
can be possible to hold up an attacker? 
can he/she be defeated? 
is there any better way /or better principle to use ?


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2017)

Istvan said:


> thank for your input. You are right with that.
> but kinda missed my question then:
> I try to get your opinions about what you would do if person 1 (boxer type), person 2 etc etc come at you.
> sorry if my question was confusing :/



I spar boxers, karate guys and wrestlers anyway. I may have more  nuance towards the obvious things like striking wrestlers taking down boxers and face punching kickers.

As far as weapons go. I will try for more limb control.

And multiples I like to invest in more movement.

(But I still think multiples and unarmed vs weapons is a suckers game)

But there is no major shift in response for me. I try to elevate my game so that I am not overwhelmed in their preferred ranges.


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

JUANY118 SAID: ↑
Try to maneuver so you don't have all three able to attack you at once, make them get in each other's way.



drop bear said:


> Does this ever actually work?
> 
> I am trying to think if I have ever been able to out maneuver three guys into a line in a fight.
> 
> Just seems ambitious.




I agree with Juany118 view. He said `try` to maneuver, defender should try their best but outcome hugely depend on the majority (attacker) if they organised and skilled. Chance are very slim if it`s not zero) 

Yes it seems ambitious anything more than 1-1
In fact is that by principle 3-4 or 10 almost doesn`t matter at the end. 
What i tried to understand here who see a fight with multiple opponent as a 1-1 fight multiple times (like Wing Tsun) and who see as 1-10 same time.

Lets assume our hero able to get stand on his feet all time in this fight. 
If he at the middle of the attackers is a good option? 
or it`s better, if he able to move and slip out from the middle and always on the move try the less amount of people to reach him in a given time? 
Of course also assume he has endless space (like middle of the road) so he can move around without being pushed into corner. 
Can he neutralise a bike, car, shopping trolley etc between him and attackers? 
Can he find an object to attack back? Or its only make attackers more angry and they will do the same?


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I spar boxers, karate guys and wrestlers anyway. I may have more  nuance towards the obvious things like striking wrestlers taking down boxers and face punching kickers.
> 
> As far as weapons go. I will try for more limb control.
> 
> ...




sure we can agree on all of your point


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## Juany118 (Feb 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Does this ever actually work?
> 
> I am trying to think if I have ever been able to out maneuver three guys into a line in a fight.
> 
> Just seems ambitious.




Oh you aren't trying to get them in a line and keep em there, people don't work that way, however in a real world environment you can often get them to be getting in each other's way as they maneuver around the rest of the stuff in the environment as well as each other.  So you are trying to make them less effective not eliminate their threat all together.  In a wide open space it will definitely be more problematic.  However as odd as it sounds the more people there are the easier it is to get them getting in each other's way, especially in tight quarters, but of course you still have multiple attackers with "open shots" as well.  The only time I have done more than 3-1 in training though wasn't "to win" it was basically a big time pressure test to help make sure you don't just "give up"


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## Juany118 (Feb 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Oh you aren't trying to get them in a line and keep em there, people don't work that way, however in a real world environment you can often get them to be getting in each other's way as they maneuver around the rest of the stuff in the environment as well as each other.  So you are trying to make them less effective not eliminate their threat all together.  In a wide open space it will definitely be more problematic.  However as odd as it sounds the more people there are the easier it is to get them getting in each other's way, especially in tight quarters, but of course you still have multiple attackers with "open shots" as well.  The only time I have done more than 3-1 in training though wasn't "to win" it was basically a big time pressure test to help make sure you don't just "give up"




Let me add one additional thing, my school may have an advantage over others.  For some training we go to the other side of the Complex where my Sifu has his consultant business and we'll bring down extra folding tables, chairs, sometimes even make cubicles with what we can (putting smaller folding mats on their sides and such)


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Oh you aren't trying to get them in a line and keep em there, people don't work that way, however in a real world environment you can often get them to be getting in each other's way as they maneuver around the rest of the stuff in the environment as well as each other.  So you are trying to make them less effective not eliminate their threat all together.  In a wide open space it will definitely be more problematic.  However as odd as it sounds the more people there are the easier it is to get them getting in each other's way, especially in tight quarters, but of course you still have multiple attackers with "open shots" as well.  The only time I have done more than 3-1 in training though wasn't "to win" it was basically a big time pressure test to help make sure you don't just "give up"




Ooh, yes testing out theories in a closed environment are the best. 
Regardless we fail or not, we can have a pretty realistic view what we can and can`t do in a given situation. Specially good if someone make video as we can analyse back again and again our mistakes. 

Can I ask Juanny what art are you practising? (or did when this test happened)?


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## Juany118 (Feb 14, 2017)

Istvan said:


> Ooh, yes testing out theories in a closed environment are the best.
> Regardless we fail or not, we can have a pretty realistic view what we can and can`t do in a given situation. Specially good if someone make video as we can analyse back again and again our mistakes.
> 
> Can I ask Juanny what art are you practising? (or did when this test happened)?



Well I did it for the first time many moons ago in the Police Academy.  We now do such testing, though usually only when we have a black sash or red sash (Guro) testing.  Currently I go to a school that teaches Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali in parallel.

We also do one, in Kali while knife fighting that is total chaos.  You will have 4 people out there, they start against one person but then you all randomly switch targets so you can have 3 on 1, 2 on 1 with the fourth attacking one of the "2".  Now that's fun . This one we do more regularly to get people to have their head on a swivel as well as to move well.  If you don't move your feet during that, you get skewered by someone.


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## Istvan (Feb 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Well I did it for the first time many moons ago in the Police Academy.  We now do such testing, though usually only when we have a black sash or red sash (Guro) testing.  Currently I go to a school that teaches Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali in parallel.
> 
> We also do one, in Kali while knife fighting that is total chaos.  You will have 4 people out there, they start against one person but then you all randomly switch targets so you can have 3 on 1, 2 on 1 with the fourth attacking one of the "2".  Now that's fun . This one we do more regularly to get people to have their head on a swivel as well as to move well.  If you don't move your feet during that, you get skewered by someone.



that`s for sure, 
more free move with legs the more chance you have to attack, defende or escape


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Does this ever actually work?
> 
> I am trying to think if I have ever been able to out maneuver three guys into a line in a fight.
> 
> Just seems ambitious.


He said: "Try to maneuver so you don't have all three able to attack you at once, make them get in each other's way."

Training wise...I agree with Juany. 

In reality if you have the space, time, and maneuverability to do such... you should be getting away.


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## Headhunter (Feb 14, 2017)

Thing is though like has been said are the guys who are attacking kick boxers or wrestlers or grapplers if they're not then the exercise is kind of pointless. Plus no boxer is going to attack the same way same with kick boxers you say they're kickers but they know the exact same punches as boxing


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2017)

Istvan said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I wish to examine and get your thoughts on certain topics 1-7.
> In Our Systema we ask students to practise and show their work of the following: (as part of their exam)
> ...


My answer to all these questions is, Boot To The Head!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> My answer to all these questions is, Boot To The Head!


Especially practical, if you carry your work boots in a pillow case.


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2017)

Istvan said:


> JUANY118 SAID: ↑
> Try to maneuver so you don't have all three able to attack you at once, make them get in each other's way.
> 
> 
> ...



I did hold a toilet against 4 guys once. They were bashing some dude.  So I threw him in the toilet and just held the doorway.


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