# 3 Empty ended taos in Wing Chun : video and comments



## poulperadieux (Jan 14, 2013)

http://poulperadieux.com/about/chi-sao/

Commments, and discussion welcome !


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## geezer (Jan 15, 2013)

I was only able to view the Chum Kiu video. The movement sequence was generally similar to the version I practice, but the articulation of the techniques and even the kinetic linkages and energy flow was _totally_ different. Although I have practiced Chum Kiu at various speeds, I've never seen it performed so _very_ slowly, like an extremely relaxed version of the Saam Pai Fut movements of Siu Nim Tao. Except for the stamping step near the end, it had an almost somnambulistic quality. 

At any rate, I assume there were also videos of SNT and Biu Tze. I have no idea why I couldn't access them.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 16, 2013)

geezer said:


> I was only able to view the Chum Kiu video. The movement sequence was generally similar to the version I practice, but the articulation of the techniques and even the kinetic linkages and energy flow was _totally_ different. Although I have practiced Chum Kiu at various speeds, I've never seen it performed so _very_ slowly, like an extremely relaxed version of the Saam Pai Fut movements of Siu Nim Tao. Except for the stamping step near the end, it had an almost somnambulistic quality.
> 
> At any rate, I assume there were also videos of SNT and Biu Tze. I have no idea why I couldn't access them.




Actually, I'm pretty fast for the need to demonstrate in this video, chum kiu, slt, BJ, and even mook jong for training purpose, better for my point of view (and some my master's), to do them slowly.

Siu Lim tao in 30' can make you sweat bullets, and train you hard on the feet, chum kiu and biu jee push the concept even harder on knees fot BJ, on Ankles for Chum Kiu.

But one must do them sloooowly to feel that.

Like in tai chi, when you do a speedy form, you take shortcuts, like when you fight.

Mook jong developps string between techniques, prepares for the shortcuts, the inturruptions in your techniques one must do to look like something in face of an opponent.

When doing a tao, you are alone, and, as you are not doing a Kata or a Poomae, you don't fight an opponent, you train your body, and you have better way to do it slowly.


A good tao is made like a good Hot Pot, the slower you cook it, the more flavors you get in the end.


Another link maybe :

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLy6LJuZonG6BuKoKK1HFYOl68dqhWEx_J&feature=view_all


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

I am hardly qualified to discuss anything Wing Chun since I only learned Siu Lim Tao in 2 kinda sorta different lineages but I agree with geezer but I am talking about Siu Lim Tao, I have never seen all of it done as slow or without what us taiji guys call fajin. Looks fine to me, just never saw it done that way. 

I can see all three but since I only know Siu Lim Tao I will not comment on the others

I have only one question, am I seeing it wrong due to the angle but are you locking out your elbows in Siu Lim Tao




poulperadieux said:


> Like in tai chi, when you do a speedy form, you take shortcuts, like when you fight.




Slow has its purposes, more for training body unity and linkages but you need to work speed as well. But I will add the going from one posture to another you are not so much going from point A to point B as much as you re going from point A to point Z and all the points in between are important and necessary and that going slow is a great way to train that


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## poulperadieux (Jan 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am hardly qualified to discuss anything Wing Chun since I only learned Siu Lim Tao in 2 kinda sorta different lineages but I agree with geezer but I am talking about Siu Lim Tao, I have never seen all of it done as slow or without what us taiji guys call fajin. Looks fine to me, just never saw it done that way.



Another one so :










> I have only one question, am I seeing it wrong due to the angle but are you locking out your elbows in Siu Lim Tao



I don't understand what you mean by locking out.
I keep the shoulders down and forward, I drill my fists horizontal in an external rotation and try not to touch my body to rest them.
Really painful stance, and hard to maintain, Yee Gee Kim Yeung ma, Works the legs, the hips, balance and a lot of spirals.







> Slow has its purposes, more for training body unity and linkages but you need to work speed as well. But I will add the going from one posture to another you are not so much going from point A to point B as much as you re going from point A to point Z and all the points in between are important and necessary and that going slow is a great way to train that



P R E C I S E L Y !!!!!

First step in Wing Chun, get to understand the body unit, and that all parts of a move is a technique when the body is united.


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## wtxs (Jan 16, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> I don't understand what you mean by locking out.



I think he is referring to the extension in your punch and palm strikes.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 16, 2013)

wtxs said:


> I think he is referring to the extension in your punch and palm strikes.



I work with muscular chains when I move, so I train them in the forms, from the feet to the tip of the fingers.

Move interruption is for the dummy, in the empty handed tao, I go as far as I can.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

wtxs said:


> I think he is referring to the extension in your punch and palm strikes.




Yup, that is what I was talking about the full extension of the arm to lock out the elbows in punches and palm strikes.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> I work with muscular chains when I move, so I train them in the forms, from the feet to the tip of the fingers.
> 
> Move interruption is for the dummy, in the empty handed tao, I go as far as I can.



What happens in application if you miss with the strike, do you still fully extend and lock out the elbow?


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## poulperadieux (Jan 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> What happens in application if you miss with the strike, do you still fully extend and lock out the elbow?



I heard of a Wing Chun Guy who missed another guy with several palm strikes at wing chun range, It was said it was the same who shot an elephant in the feet in a couloir aiming for the head.

He had terrible aim, pooor guy.


The palm strikes applications movements are in the wooden dummy form by the way.


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## Argus (Jan 16, 2013)

It's always interesting to see other people's forms. I'm curious, what is your lineage?


I'm not very experienced as of yet, but here are my impressions of the first form:

- In the opening movements, we usually only cross twice; once down, and then once up, without folding the arms inside each other (just turn the palms over). I've never seen a lineage before who didn't do it this way, but it doesn't strike me as a big deal.

- When punching, even when taking the guise of a punch during the opening movements, the fist should already be aligned to hit when you bring it to the center (rather than the back of the hand facing outward).

- I've always seen hyun-sau practiced with the hand open, rather than closed in a fist. I'm not sure why you would practice it with the hand closed.

- Very good movement of the elbow during wu-sau. It's has better structure if you keep the hand vertical, though.

- The vertical palm strike after the pak-sau is very low, and the fingers are too extended, making it look almost more like biu-sau. While it's usually a good idea not to head-hunt with your punches, but rather aim about chest level (particularly when you're on the outside), the purpose of this shape (a vertical palm as opposed to horizontal) is to attack when you're on the inside. That being the case, you need to cut off anything coming from the outside, so it is important to aim high. Most lineages practice this movement at face level, I believe.

- This may not be specific to your lineage, but in the third section, we practice gum-sau and fak-sau with a relaxed, "exploding" energy released at the end. Also, we practice these movements with the palms facing down, rather than the fingers. Another kind of odd thing that I notice is how you completely lock your elbows at the end of these movements. This isn't a good habit to get into. Your lan-sau looks good; many people play it too high.

- I didn't see jut sau.

- The second palm strike is a horizontal palm. This is a different structure, for when you are on the outside. Again, make sure to hit with the palm.

- Woah! Gan-sau, tan-sau, where are you going? No need to bring the gan-sau way up and across your body before you cut down. That's taking it way off center, and is a very large movement. And with the second tan-sau, you're pushing way out to the side. This is not something we should ever do. Don't push outwards.

- After that tan-sau, and hyun-sau, the next movement is another horizontal palm, aimed low (but not quite as low as you place your hand - that's a bit extreme).

- Bong-sau is good, the tan-sau following is much too low and over-extended, and the tok-sau (or dai-jeung) should be extending forward, not just going up.

- When replacing the hands, don't bring the new hand all the way up to your shoulder before scraping down. Again, that is far too much unnecessary distance to travel. Usually we place the hand just under the elbow, and turn the palm over.

- When chain punching, bring your extended hand down and back, underneath the line it traveled, and make sure the new punch is going straight. Don't try to punch over your old hand.


I have to say that I find your Sil Lim Tao very strange. It's hard to say that something is definitively wrong if that's how someone has been taught in their lineage, but then, I do not believe that every (or any) lineage does everything entirely correct. However, most of what I pointed out goes beyond lineage-specific differences, and doesn't line-up with anything I have seen practiced in any other lineage. Still, I commend you for being bold enough to put your forms up like this, and ask for feedback! I hope that it's helpful.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 16, 2013)

Oh Lord, you sure talk a lot and is really bold for a inexperienced guy !

Try studying early Ip man student lineages and than we'll talk again.

And, by the way, I'm under the radiant octopus totemic spirit guidance for now, and an adept of Chthulhu Chick.


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## Argus (Jan 16, 2013)

...


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## poulperadieux (Jan 16, 2013)

Argus said:


> ...



Sorry man, but witch level are you to juge this way something you don't understand.
Ask questions before judging, and you'll get my respect.

Try to respect my work first, especially if, like you said, you are a beginner.

I can share with you, but stay humble and polite in your comments uh?


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## wtxs (Jan 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, that is what I was talking about the full extension of the arm to lock out the elbows in punches and palm strikes.



WC is an close-in/close-range fighting system, if one must fully extend punch or strikes, one would be chasing the target.  Fully extended arm also lend itself to be easily intercepted and control, and the elbow joint would be in danger by an cutting pak, palm or punch ... JIMHO.

We all had heard the saying "you fight the way you had trained", locking out the elbow or the knee for that matter, is not the habit I personally favors.


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## Argus (Jan 16, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> Sorry man, but witch level are you to juge this way something you don't understand.
> Ask questions before judging, and you'll get my respect.
> 
> Try to respect my work first, especially if, like you said, you are a beginner.
> ...



I did not intend my comment to be rude. As far as being judgmental, I assume that by posting these forms and asking for comments, you're looking for feedback from other practitioners. I gave you an honest assessment; what help is it if you ask for advice and I do not try to offer sound judgement? Of course, anything must be judged within a context. My context, and that of most, if not all of the members here, is from the primary, modern lineages. And from that point of view, if I may be bold yet again, your forms are quite strange and foreign.

Now, I don't know what this early lineage that you claim to be is, and I don't know what was passed down to you. I'm not trying to judge that. I merely attempted to give my honest assessment of the form, from a commonly accepted context, in hopes that this is what you were looking for, and that it might be of help. If not, then I apologize for misunderstanding and not offering anything of value.

On the subject of "judging" others, though, does my inexperience make my observations incorrect? From my context, I believe my observations were sound, or I wouldn't have pointed them out. If your context is different, I'd love to hear how exactly, and why you do things differently. I'm always looking to learn.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2013)

IMO, even if the form may be done in slow speed (speed is just a relative term anyway), at the end of each punch, the arm should 

- look bend but it's straight, look straight but it's bend.
- have the elastic look as if the punch just bounce off from contact.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

wtxs said:


> WC is an close-in/close-range fighting system, if one must fully extend punch or strikes, one would be chasing the target. Fully extended arm also lend itself to be easily intercepted and control, and the elbow joint would be in danger by an cutting pak, palm or punch ... JIMHO.
> 
> We all had heard the saying "you fight the way you had trained", locking out the elbow or the knee for that matter, is not the habit I personally favors.



Thanks, I was told not to lock the elbow when I was training wing chun in both lineages (both go back to Ip Man just different people in between Ip Man and me) and that was to protect the elbow joint. 

That is also the case when I trained Xingyiquan, Sanda and Baguazhang and it is the case in Taijiquan.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> I heard of a Wing Chun Guy who missed another guy with several palm strikes at wing chun range, It was said it was the same who shot an elephant in the feet in a couloir aiming for the head.
> 
> He had terrible aim, pooor guy.
> 
> ...



There also for real fighting applications too


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I was told not to lock the elbow ...



To lock the elbow at the end of each punch may look good for "performance" (The modern Wushu does that all the time). It won't be good for combat or health. If the end of your punch is the beginning of your next punch, your arm will never be locked.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To lock the elbow at the end of each punch may look good for "performance" (The modern Wushu does that all the time). It won't be good for combat or health. If the end of your punch is the beginning of your next punch, your arm will never be locked.



Yeah, I was thinking prime qinna target, but then that is the same thing


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## mook jong man (Jan 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah, I was thinking prime qinna target, but then that is the same thing



At the rate of up to ten punches a second , believe me you would be hard pressed trying to even block that type of speed in a punch let alone try and grab it to apply a lock.
By the time you have tried to apply the lock , the elbow is already back down and the arm retracted back into the "optimum angle" and your getting hit with their other hand.

We lock out our punches and kicks , when you totally relax the biceps the arm will naturally reach full extension and maximum power , we call this "elbow force" a powerful driving force from the elbow.
As long as you stay relaxed there is no problem.
I have been locking my punches out for years and have no elbow problems except for damage done while training in grappling with someone who was a bit overzealous in applying an arm bar.

Simply put if you are not fully extending your Wing Chun punches or palm strikes , you are not generating maximum power.


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## wtxs (Jan 16, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> We lock out our punches and kicks , when you totally relax the biceps the arm will naturally reach full extension and maximum power , we call this "elbow force" a powerful driving force from the elbow.
> 
> As long as you stay relaxed there is no problem.
> I have been locking my punches out for years and have no elbow problems except for damage done while training in grappling with someone who was a bit overzealous in applying an arm bar.
> ...




In the fractions of an second during a punch/kick, there may be the "latching" of the joints at full extension, I don't consider that to be an locking action, as you've said ... the elbow/knee joint should be on its retracting cycle, so there is no "locking.  To me, "lock out" has an definite stop of motion in time, such as that of some hard style MA punch/kick.

There are more than one way of generating max power in WC without have to rely on full extension of you limbs.  On the down side, full extension could be used against you as mentioned before, could also comprise your overall balance and therefore you structure ... just MHO.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> At the rate of up to ten punches a second , believe me you would be hard pressed trying to even block that type of speed in a punch let alone try and grab it to apply a lock.
> By the time you have tried to apply the lock , the elbow is already back down and the arm retracted back into the "optimum angle" and your getting hit with their other hand.
> 
> We lock out our punches and kicks , when you totally relax the biceps the arm will naturally reach full extension and maximum power , we call this "elbow force" a powerful driving force from the elbow.
> ...



Yup, Seen that, but it only takes one, besides I said opportunity I did not say it was imminent and who says I'm going to stand there while you chamber away punch after punch....believe me...I'm not. 

Can't speak for wing chun because I did not do it long enough but you can generate one heck of a lot of power without fully extending in Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Sanda.


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## mook jong man (Jan 16, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, Seen that, but it only takes one, besides I said opportunity I did not say it was imminent and who says I'm going to stand there while you chamber away punch after punch....believe me...I'm not.
> 
> Can't speak for wing chun because I did not do it long enough but you can generate one heck of a lot of power without fully extending in Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Sanda.



Your thinking of the type of chain punching you see a lot of beginners doing or what you commonly see on most Wing Chun videos.
In our chain punching once the punch makes contact with the opponents arms , the fist then changes into a hook which pulls the opponents arms down continuously while striking with the other hand , a bit like walking into a chain saw.

So you can't very well go anywhere while your arms are being latched and your being hit in the face at the same time , if you did manage to try and get to the side he only has to pivot and side slash you in the neck.

I remember the time a blackbelt in Jiu Jitsu tried to grab my fingers and break them when we were supposed to be doing "light hand sparring".
I felt the grab as he tried to put the lock on and promptly punched him in the face with my other hand.
Went home that day with mildly sprained fingers , he went home bleeding profusely from the mouth with a split lip.


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## mook jong man (Jan 16, 2013)

wtxs said:


> In the fractions of an second during a punch/kick, there may be the "latching" of the joints at full extension, I don't consider that to be an locking action, as you've said ... the elbow/knee joint should be on its retracting cycle, so there is no "locking.  To me, "lock out" has an definite stop of motion in time, such as that of some hard style MA punch/kick.
> 
> There are more than one way of generating max power in WC without have to rely on full extension of you limbs.  On the down side, full extension could be used against you as mentioned before, could also comprise your overall balance and therefore you structure ... just MHO.



Now we are just getting into semantics.
All I am saying is that you should relax your bicep when you punch and relax your hamstrings when you kick.
Extend for the briefest nanosecond until the energy is released and then back into the optimum angle.

If you are not letting your limbs extend naturally then you are not fully relaxed , because you are using the biceps as a brake to stop your arm from reaching the full limit of its motion.
The only reason to do so would be to stop from damaging your partner , but in the air or on a pad just relax and let the striking limb fly out.

I think that there is a hell of a lot of misinformation out there about Wing Chun and I am not talking about you here wtxs , most of it is due to ignorance of the system and people trying to apply truisms that might be appropriate for other martial arts but in no way apply to Wing Chun.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 17, 2013)

Maybe so, but I think that a Tao is not a training to fight, it's body conditionning.

If you trained the mook jong, you'll see patterns interrupted, none full extensions, fight combinations.

The Tao is for the body, and the Mook jong is to understand how to transcend the Body conditionning in the fight.

And also, the teacher don't exclusively teach the Taos... There are a lot of things to do with a partner to learn what you are talking about.

Alone, I train my arms, my legs and my body connexion this way, if not, when do I do it?
When do you do it?


Thinking that one, when training the forms, will reproduce in a fight the same patterns, is a misunderstanding of the purpose of a Tao.

That's the transformation of Wing Chun Tao in KATAS, that's japanese stuff guys !


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## mook jong man (Jan 17, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> Maybe so, but I think that a Tao is not a training to fight, it's body conditionning.
> 
> If you trained the mook jong, you'll see patterns interrupted, none full extensions, fight combinations.
> 
> ...



Could you explain this a bit further because I haven't got the faintest idea what you are talking about.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 17, 2013)

What didn't you understood?

What is a Tao for you, and the difference between the Kata and the tao?


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## Argus (Jan 17, 2013)

Wait, so, you do not believe that Tao are for practicing technique, but rather for some kind of physical benefit? Or am I misunderstanding?


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## Jake104 (Jan 17, 2013)

wtxs said:


> In the fractions of an second during a punch/kick, there may be the "latching" of the joints at full extension, I don't consider that to be an locking action, as you've said ... the elbow/knee joint should be on its retracting cycle, so there is no "locking.  To me, "lock out" has an definite stop of motion in time, such as that of some hard style MA punch/kick.
> 
> There are more than one way of generating max power in WC without have to rely on full extension of you limbs.  On the down side, full extension could be used against you as mentioned before, could also comprise your overall balance and therefore you structure ... just MHO.


 I agree with your last statement . There are other ways of generating power without relying on full extension of limbs. Specifically for me I can generate power just fine from a bent arm or any arm/ limb position. I strike with my body not my arms or legs. So extension isn't that much of difference power wise anyway . 

I originally learned to fully extend but have since changed to just leaving a slight bend. I have had my arm hyper extended in the past . It was at full speed and a late timed Bong Sao slid under resulting in over extension. This is not the reason I switched though. I switched because when you fully extend your arm your shoulder will rise disconnecting your elbow from the hip heel and ground. So in my opinion you loose the body connection that gives WC power in the first place. I don't buy into the whole speed, machine gun approach. I want my punches/ kicks to be of the heavy solid full body drive from the hip type.


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## mook jong man (Jan 17, 2013)

Jake104 said:


> I agree with your last statement . There are other ways of generating power without relying on full extension of limbs. Specifically for me I can generate power just fine from a bent arm or any arm/ limb position. I strike with my body not my arms or legs. So extension isn't that much of difference power wise anyway .
> 
> I originally learned to fully extend but have since changed to just leaving a slight bend. I have had my arm hyper extended in the past . It was at full speed and a late timed Bong Sao slid under resulting in over extension. This is not the reason I switched though.* I switched because when you fully extend your arm your shoulder will rise disconnecting your elbow from the hip heel and ground.* So in my opinion you loose the body connection that gives WC power in the first place. I don't buy into the whole speed, machine gun approach. I want my punches/ kicks to be of the heavy solid full body drive from the hip type.



Have to disagree with that one , whether your arm is bent or straight the shoulder joint should be relaxed enough that it stays down in its socket.
When your biceps and shoulder joint are relaxed , a fast punch will reach its full range of movement and then there will be a slight movement forward from the shoulder as that joint then comes into play.

Actually there are parts of the SLT form that teach you to counter attack from a position of having a fully extended arm.
In the Bil Gee form this concept of generating power from the shoulder is further built upon with the deliberate stretching of the shoulder joints when performing the pivoting elbow strike sequences and the parts where you palm strike and pivot to the side with full shoulder extension.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 17, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> http://poulperadieux.com/about/chi-sao/
> 
> Commments, and discussion welcome ![/QUOT
> 
> ...


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## mook jong man (Jan 17, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> What didn't you understood?
> 
> _*What is a Tao for you, and the difference between the Kata and the tao?*_



Well  in my opinion kata as performed by other martial arts seem to be choreographed fights against multiple imaginary opponents.

The Wing Chun forms on the other hand are sequences of exercises based around certain concepts.
The three empty hand forms each concentrate on a different theme , these separate themes when merged will form the best strategy for defence and attack .

SLT concentrates on finding the individuals "optimum angle" , defence and attack using the centerline , also the cultivation of energy flow amongst other things.

Chum Kiu is concerned with mobility , stepping and pivoting , strengthening of the waist and the use of multiple vectors of force to attack the opponent.
Bil Gee is mainly focused on driving force out to the palms and fingers and using the upper body to generate enormous attacking power.


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## WTchap (Jan 17, 2013)

I only had time to check out the first video (SNT), but I liked a lot of what you were training. I train in the Leung Ting organization, so I see a few similarities in our form, but quite a few differences too. But that's cool - it's all good. 

I liked the fact that you were, it seemed to me, focussing on going slow to activate the muscles you need to use while making sure you kept relaxed the ones not needed to support a movement. In the WT lineage we should always train the forms like this. 

And we also extend the arm fully in the punches during the forms - to get the energy out (freeing yourself of your own force, as LT would have it).

I'll try to watch the other videos later - thanks for posting them!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 17, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> Your thinking of the type of chain punching you see a lot of beginners doing or what you commonly see on most Wing Chun videos.
> In our chain punching once the punch makes contact with the opponents arms , the fist then changes into a hook which pulls the opponents arms down continuously while striking with the other hand , a bit like walking into a chain saw.



unless you do Taiji and you have no issue with sticking and following and I don't care what type of punch actually. I likely will not be were you want me to be or expect me to be.



mook jong man said:


> So you can't very well go anywhere while your arms are being latched and your being hit in the face at the same time , if you did manage to try and get to the side he only has to pivot and side slash you in the neck.



That would all depend on how far I moved in and where you pulled me, pull me right and I hit you with kao or or Ji or An or Zhou. Pull a good Yang Taiji guy in he will follow, yes you may hit him but he will hit you as well with one of the things I mentioned or possibly something else depending on what "you " do. 



mook jong man said:


> I remember the time a blackbelt in Jiu Jitsu tried to grab my fingers and break them when we were supposed to be doing "light hand sparring".
> I felt the grab as he tried to put the lock on and promptly punched him in the face with my other hand.
> Went home that day with mildly sprained fingers , he went home bleeding profusely from the mouth with a split lip.



Mook, depending on what you do taiji responds, if I do not feel the right energy for qinna I will not do it. I will not try and muscle a qinna lock. If you are not in the position I will not do it. And if I did qinna well (and sadly I am not at the level of my sifu) you will not feel a thing because you lock yourself (been there a lot myself). There is no attempting a lock, there is no forcing a lock if you are in the position there is just a lock. You will not feel it until you are locked. That is how good Yang style qinna works (at least in the Tung Ying Chieh line), it is not Jujutsu or aikido or Sanda or Wing Chun and it does not approach it the same. However, not to worry, I am not that good. Sparing a taiji guy is dull and boring because we don't do much if you don't do anything. It could be a good staring match however

Additionally this back and forth is pretty much pointless so let&#8217;s just say yes your Wing Chun will trounce the hell out of me, I am not worthy and leave it at that.


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## wtxs (Jan 17, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> Now we are just getting into semantics.
> All I am saying is that you should relax your bicep when you punch and relax your hamstrings when you kick.
> Extend for the briefest nanosecond until the energy is released and then back into the optimum angle.
> 
> ...



I respect the reality of differences between lineages and even how each person's interpretation of what WC is within that same lineage.

I also agree ones limbs should be "relax" as possible, been it is one of the factors in achieving speed, combined with your mass and distant resulting in the levels of impact power.

  Since I valued WC as an close in fighting system, I (just my take) use what my teacher called "short stroke" punch, cycling of the fist is very fast (visualize an piston riding on a crank shift with real low lope angle) the elbow needed not at full extension ... so to speak, but angled and down enough so the forearm is use to cut/deflect/control the attacking arm while the fist/palm is on its way to the face/head.  Power is generated by the forward movement of the balanced structure (body as an unit), short/slight/sharp torque of the waist, up through shoulder, arm and out to the hand ... much like if not unlike the Fa Jing of other kung fu styles.

You are right about tons of BS information out there, I would rather stay true to what I've been taught, but I also give acceptance and try to learn from quality people of this forum, thank you all for that opportunity, and Mook for giving me space.:asian::asian::asian:


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## mook jong man (Jan 17, 2013)

wtxs said:


> I respect the reality of differences between lineages and even how each person's interpretation of what WC is within that same lineage.
> 
> I also agree ones limbs should be "relax" as possible, been it is one of the factors in achieving speed, combined with your mass and distant resulting in the levels of impact power.
> 
> ...



Ok I see what you are getting at now , your talking about what we would describe as keeping your arm in the "optimum angle".
Anytime you are making contact with the opponents arms your arm should be in the "optimum angle".
But in our lineage once we have deflected the opponents punch , and it is safe to do so we will then expand our angle and hit through with our own strike.

You can see it a bit in this video where the guy because he is a beginner just keeps the angle to redirect the opponents straight punch with his Tan Sau , but at a later stage he would learn to then expand the angle and hit straight through.

The second video shows maintaining the optimum angle in Tan/Bong to deflect chain punching.

[video=youtube_share;UD0StiqF-gc]http://youtu.be/UD0StiqF-gc[/video]

[video=youtube_share;3xN71XK_g0E]http://youtu.be/3xN71XK_g0E[/video]


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## poulperadieux (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks a lot to make this subject live, I'll trys to add a response to any of you as soon as possible.

Like english talkin' forums, so much interesting participation.

Poulpe Radieux.


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## mook jong man (Jan 18, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> Thanks a lot to make this subject live, I'll trys to add a response to any of you as soon as possible.
> 
> Like english talkin' forums, so much interesting participation.
> 
> Poulpe Radieux.



No worries , how do you pronounce your name ? 
About the only French persons name I can say is Gerard Depardieu.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 18, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> No worries , how do you pronounce your name ?
> About the only French persons name I can say is Gerard Depardieu.



Some call me Poulpy, or Nico, depends.

Gerard is Russian Now !!


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## wtxs (Jan 18, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> Ok I see what you are getting at now , your talking about what we would describe as keeping your arm in the "optimum angle".
> Anytime you are making contact with the opponents arms your arm should be in the "optimum angle".
> But in our lineage *once we have deflected the opponents punch , and it is safe to do so we will then expand our angle and hit through with our own strike*.



We share the same basic concepts Mook, just different in the details of its execution.  I really like the economy of motion concept, our counter punch is done in one continues motion (as with some other lineages) ... leaving the safety concern to be worried by your opponent.


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## poulperadieux (Jan 19, 2013)

yeah, everyone worries about hyper extension during a fight, that's common sense.

But, in a TAO, there's no opponent, neither imaginary, nor heal.

And there's so much things we can work when there's no opponent, like training the muscular chains and the tendons to the most, so in hyperextension.


To go further :

http://www.amazon.fr/s/?ie=UTF8&key...vpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_8fgssgxy9g_b


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## geezer (Jan 19, 2013)

I've been down with the flu and finally am well enough to check in here with a few random comments. I finally was able to access _all three_ videos and only have this to add:

1. Doing the certain sections of the forms slowly definitely has it benefits, but in my lineage we always move quickly and release our energy when perfoming the striking movements. That would equate to the _fa-jing_ that Xue referred to.

2. Like Nico and Mook, we also extend our arms fully (to the point straightening the elbow) when striking. Done properly, the arm is very relaxed and the fist is thrown out like "a rock on a silk cord" -- it only stops when the cord pulls taught. This is how we are taught to release our energy without tension. Of course in practice your goal is to make contact with your strike _before_ you reach full extension so you can drive your punch into your target. 

3. One last thing. _Taos_ is a town in New Mexico.  :uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2013)

geezer said:


> I've been down with the flu and finally am well enough to check in here with a few random comments.



Sorry to hear you had the flu, I had it in early December and it is not fun. Glad to hear your on the mend 


So where is Taos again


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## poulperadieux (Jan 19, 2013)

A video about some comments from this forum and a French one.

Shot during a formation, with a Student, Black Belt in Goshin Do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOHT2mZwMpg&feature=youtu.be


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## cwk (Jan 20, 2013)

It's good to see people putting up videos of their application ideas, thanks.


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## wtxs (Jan 20, 2013)

poulperadieux said:


> A video about some comments from this forum and a French one.
> 
> Shot during a formation, with a Student, Black Belt in Goshin Do.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOHT2mZwMpg&feature=youtu.be



Very good demo of dealing with the hook, very good advice on the placement of the pressing elbow ... preventing the attacking hand from circling under and redirect the attack to your inside gate.

We use similar intercept technique but with an different twist, by cutting into his bicep with the forearm or palm "cut" into the shoulder joint while attacking with the other hand while moving in, leaving him very little time to respond.


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