# Question regarding Bal Chae forms...



## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 11, 2007)

...or Bassai, or however you spell it - I've seen it spelled several ways, only a few of them aligning with how I say it. 

Anyway, I've noticed that a lot of you only refer to one Bal Chae form. Any reason? I ask, because I know two: Bal Chae So and Bal Chae Deh (again, my spelling here is phonetic to how I say it). I know Choong Jae Nim takes every effort to keep his instruction authentic, so I know both forms are real. So do some people practice them together, as if they were one form (like the pyong ahn forms used to be)? 

Just wondering.


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## rmclain (Jan 11, 2007)

Could this be: Ba Sek So and Bal Sek Dae?  This is the Korean for Bassai Sho and Bassai Tae.

I've noticed many schools only instructing the Bassai Tae (Bal Sek Tae) form, especially some Taekwondo schools.  I got the feeling that not many instructors know or learned Bassai Sho (Bal Sek So).

R. McLain


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## Muwubu16858 (Jan 19, 2007)

The problem is that most of Hwang Kee's students didn't stick around to learn most of the forms, especially Bbache So(Bassai So).  Only a select few students learned the original 39 hyung Hwang Kee knew. Sadly, only 19 of those are used by most Tang Soo Do schools, as the others have been replace by introducing the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro hyung, and a good 99.5% of Moo Duk Kwan students never learned them. I myself, being that my teacher trained at the Moo Duk Kwan Central Gym and trained with Hwang Kee for 20 years before coming to America, have already learned many unknown forms, such as Bassai So, Kong Sang Koon So, Rohai Cho, Ee and Sam Dan, Dam Dei, Ee Ship Sa, and many others. I plan on publishing an encyclopedia on all 39 traditional forms someday, performed in both Hwang Kee's style and in Oh Se Jun's style (Oh Se jun was Hwang Kee's best and most powerful student, his Dan Bon number being under 20). It wont be out for at least a decade, though.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 24, 2007)

Odd that they'd know the second one and not the first....or was Bassai So created after Bassai De?


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jan 28, 2007)

Back in 1997 one of my students bought me a full set of C.S. Kims video tapes. That was the first time that I saw Bassai So. I taught it to my students at 3rd gup level and presented it to my instructor, Grandmaster C.I. Kim at our next testing as a demonstration hyung. 
He said; oh, you do Bassai So? 
I was surprised that he knew the hyung, as he had not taught it to me. 

I asked him; do you know this hyung? He said; yes.

I asked him; if you know this hyung, why didnt you teach it to us in class?

He said; Hwang Kee stopped teaching it so I stopped teaching it.

The older generation of Tang Soo Do practitioners learned this, and other hyung, but out of respect for Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee they discontinued teaching them in order to be in compliance with his curriculum. 

I would guess that Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim didnt teach this hyung in the U.S.A. until after his split with the Federation, and he created his own curriculum.

Since that time, I have found many videos of masters and grandmasters from Okinawan and Japanese systems performing this and other variations of Bassai So and Dai that I now have in my library. In my school we now teach both hyung


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## Chizikunbo (Mar 30, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> ...or Bassai, or however you spell it - I've seen it spelled several ways, only a few of them aligning with how I say it.
> 
> Anyway, I've noticed that a lot of you only refer to one Bal Chae form. Any reason? I ask, because I know two: Bal Chae So and Bal Chae Deh (again, my spelling here is phonetic to how I say it). I know Choong Jae Nim takes every effort to keep his instruction authentic, so I know both forms are real. So do some people practice them together, as if they were one form (like the pyong ahn forms used to be)?
> 
> Just wondering.


Hi,
I was only taught one bassai really, bassai dae. (Passai Dai). I am aware that there is a Bassai So, but as I understand it, this was a lesser form created by Itosu. Being as I was really only taught Bassai Dae, its all I need. From what I have seen of the lesser form I dont care for it, and the greater IS the original anyway; dont get me wrong, Itosu was an innovator in his own right, but I see NO need to practice the Bassai So...
BTW Pyong Ahns were never one form, the Pinans were created by Yasutsune Itosu as 5 forms, based on Chiang Nan (Jae Nam) (Which was one form) and possibly Ku San Ku (Kong San Koon)...
--Josh


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## MBuzzy (Mar 30, 2007)

In GM Hwang Kee's books, he only references Bassia Dai - any reasons as to why he stopped teaching, performing, or publishing any reference to Bassai So?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 31, 2007)

I learned Bassai Sho, but I learned it in a very circuitous way.  My teacher did not learn it from his teacher.  He learned it from KJN Ahpo in California and then brought it to us.  When we showed my teacher's teacher it, he was like, "we don't practice that anymore."


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Mar 31, 2007)

I taught myself Bassai (Palche) So from Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kims video series in 1997. One of my students had purchased the series for me as a gift.
I taught it to my students at 2nd gup level and presented it to my instructor, KJN C.I. Kim at the next testing as a demo hyung. KJN Kim said; oh you know Bassai So? I was surprised that he knew this hyung, as he had not taught it to me or the other members of our association. When I asked him why he didnt teach it to us he stated; KJN Hwang Kee decided to remove it from the curriculum, as he felt that is wasnt necessary to have two Bassai with all of the other hyung that he was teaching.

KJN Kim has always taught as KJN Hwang Kee did, and if KJN Hwang Kee chose this or that, KJN would, out of the immense respect that he had, and has to this day, do as KJN Hwang Kee did.

I have since added this hyung to our curriculum because I like the flow of the movements, and it teaches principles and philosophy of movement that Bassai Dai does not. 

There are several different interpretations of this hyung (just like every other hyung). The ITF version as taught by Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim is the Korean variant as taught in the early days by KJN Hwang Kee. The Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan version is the Japanese variant as taught in Shotokan. I believe that KJN Ferraro learned this hyung from Kyoshi Mike Cunningham. Kyoshi Cunningham is a Shotokan instructor with great integrity in all that he does. KJN Ferraro and Kyoshi Cunningham have been friends and training partners for in the area of 25 years or so. 


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 31, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> I taught myself Bassai (Palche) So from Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kims video series in 1997. One of my students had purchased the series for me as a gift.
> I taught it to my students at 2nd gup level and presented it to my instructor, KJN C.I. Kim at the next testing as a demo hyung. KJN Kim said; oh you know Bassai So? I was surprised that he knew this hyung, as he had not taught it to me or the other members of our association. When I asked him why he didnt teach it to us he stated; KJN Hwang Kee decided to remove it from the curriculum, as he felt that is wasnt necessary to have two Bassai with all of the other hyung that he was teaching.
> 
> KJN Kim has always taught as KJN Hwang Kee did, and if KJN Hwang Kee chose this or that, KJN would, out of the immense respect that he had, and has to this day, do as KJN Hwang Kee did.
> ...



Ah, cool. Is the video good? I've been meaning to invest in his videos, just to see him in action, since I only learn indirectly from him most of the time (through one of his students at a branch school). I too really like palche so, since, as you said, it' has some things that palche dai doesn't. I've actually been looking at it a lot recently, out of a renewed interest (due to this forum) into really breaking down my forms and making 100% sure I examine them for what's inside, behind the moves. The other day, I was, for whatever reason, practicing adapting palche so for use with two knives instead of fists. It lent itself surprisingly well, though I'm hardly an authority.

I do find it interesting that Hwang Kee didn't think much of the form. Either way, I'm glad C.S. Kim decided to keep it for his curriculum. I've yet to find many videos of the Japanese version, though...I'll have to look for it. Are there a lot of differences?


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Apr 1, 2007)

JT,
You misunderstood what I stated with regard to Hwang Kee dropping this hyung from his curriculum. I didnt say that he didnt think much of the hyung. He, in structuring his curriculum had to determine what was, enough and what was too much.

One problem that many associations have is that, in the process of trying to establish the ultimate curriculum, they keep adding more hyung and basic combinations. It gets to the point where you. As a student, you are so busy trying to memorize the curriculum requirements of your next rank that you never really get around to perfecting that which you have already been tested on. 

I see so many students being tested, that have just enough of a handle on the material that they are being tested on to just slid through the testing by the skin of their teeth, and being awarded the new rank because it is Part of the Program. What program? The program that they have signed up for (by contract); the one that guarantees the school owner that in a given period of time, they will have been awarded a Black Belt, ready or not and then be ready for another contractual membership that will take them to the next level.

Hwang Kees idea was to make the curriculum less cumbersome at that time. Both hyung are good, and both hyung have great value. It wasnt that he didnt see value in Bassai/Palche So, it was simply that in his mind one of them had to go

Give me call we can discuss this material at length 248-561-5700.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


*TANG SOO!!!*


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 3, 2007)

I see your point; can't learn everything, I suppose. Still, I've always been taught that everything up to black belt is the preliminaries; you really start learning once you become a cho dan. Then you have enough time (the rest of your life) to learn whatever forms you can, mastering their applications as you work on improving your technique. 

It is a useful way to add more tests, adding more hyung, though.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Apr 3, 2007)

One of the main problems with many associations is the volume of info that they require...

You should always take your training deep in the techniques that you already know befor taking it wide by adding more "stuff".

A wise master once said; all that you really need to be successful in a fight is a solid reverse punch (and great timing)...


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## cferraro04 (Apr 7, 2007)

I believe that KJN Ferraro learned this hyung from Kyoshi Mike Cunningham. Kyoshi Cunningham is a Shotokan instructor with great integrity in all that he does. KJN Ferraro and Kyoshi Cunningham have been friends and training partners for in the area of 25 years or so. 

It is good to see my friends and students posting here.  I would like to correct the above statement.  I learned Bassai So (Palche So) from Kwan Jhang Andy Ah Po about 20 years ago.  I later through training with Hanshi Cunningham compared the version of the hyung I had been taught with his and found them to be very similar.  I modified the hyung only slightly to incorporate the Shoto Kan centering footwork at the beginning and end of the hyung as well as the circular foot sweeping foot work for the last two moves of the form.  Otherwise I continue to do the hyung in the same manner it was taught to me by Kwan Jhang Nim Ah Po.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Apr 7, 2007)

KJN Ferraro,
Thank you for this correction. I was not aware of the Federation instructors teaching This hyung at that time, as I had not seen it perfomed by anyone, including KJN Kim.

We are all looking forward to seeing you at the end of the month!!!


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## Chizikunbo (Apr 7, 2007)

cferraro04 said:


> I believe that KJN Ferraro learned this hyung from Kyoshi Mike Cunningham. Kyoshi Cunningham is a Shotokan instructor with great integrity in all that he does. KJN Ferraro and Kyoshi Cunningham have been friends and training partners for in the area of 25 years or so.
> 
> It is good to see my friends and students posting here. I would like to correct the above statement. I learned Bassai So (Palche So) from Kwan Jhang Andy Ah Po about 20 years ago. I later through training with Hanshi Cunningham compared the version of the hyung I had been taught with his and found them to be very similar. I modified the hyung only slightly to incorporate the Shoto Kan centering footwork at the beginning and end of the hyung as well as the circular foot sweeping foot work for the last two moves of the form. Otherwise I continue to do the hyung in the same manner it was taught to me by Kwan Jhang Nim Ah Po.


 
Welcome to MT Kwang Jang Nim 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




--josh


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 9, 2007)

cferraro04 said:


> It is good to see my friends and students posting here.  I would like to correct the above statement.  I learned Bassai So (Palche So) from Kwan Jhang Andy Ah Po about 20 years ago.  I later through training with Hanshi Cunningham compared the version of the hyung I had been taught with his and found them to be very similar.  I modified the hyung only slightly to incorporate the Shoto Kan centering footwork at the beginning and end of the hyung as well as the circular foot sweeping foot work for the last two moves of the form.  Otherwise I continue to do the hyung in the same manner it was taught to me by Kwan Jhang Nim Ah Po.



Sweeping motions for the last two moves? Never thought of those, although the form does have me sliding my feet along the floor for every move. How are sweeps put into the last two moves of palche so, though, I wonder?


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