# How common is this?



## Midnight-shadow (Apr 17, 2017)

This seems like such a simple technique and although I know it's probably really hard to pull off in an actual fight, is this sort of thing common?

Also, if someone traps your hand like this and then throws a punch, what is the counter to it?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2017)

For someone who doesn't want top watch the entire video, skip to 2 minutes in.
It's just someone knocking down the guard, then going in with a strike in the now open area.


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## jobo (Apr 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> This seems like such a simple technique and although I know it's probably really hard to pull off in an actual fight, is this sort of thing common?
> 
> Also, if someone traps your hand like this and then throws a punch, what is the counter to it?


the hand isn't trapped, its being pushed down, the hand is effectively trapped by the guy pushing up against the downward force, ie he has trapped his own hand, the technique is to drop you hand rather than resisting and then put is back up again . The trick is to do it fast enough that it gets up there before the punch


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## Danny T (Apr 17, 2017)

An overhand as shown is a looping strike. Move inside the arc and to the same side the strike is coming from. Easier said than done.Takes practice to move forward rather than trying to back out.

As to how common the trapping of the hand is... It is done in every striking art I have experience in.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> the hand isn't trapped, its being pushed down, the hand is effectively trapped by the guy pushing up against the downward force, ie he has trapped his own hand, the technique is to drop you hand rather than resisting and then put is back up again . The trick is to do it fast enough that it gets up there before the punch



Ah I see. That makes sense, thanks. Seems kind of obvious really, I do the exact same thing when I'm staff sparring.


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## jobo (Apr 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Ah I see. That makes sense, thanks. Seems kind of obvious really, I do the exact same thing when I'm staff sparring.


Ying and yang works in mma as well,


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> the hand isn't trapped, its being pushed down, the hand is effectively trapped by the guy pushing up against the downward force, ie he has trapped his own hand, the technique is to drop you hand rather than resisting and then put is back up again . The trick is to do it fast enough that it gets up there before the punch


Unfortunately, when the person has been preparing that strategy and you're not expecting it, much easier said than done.


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## Paul_D (Apr 18, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> This seems like such a simple technique and although I know it's probably really hard to pull off in an actual fight, is this sort of thing common?


Karate kata is full of examples of trapping the arm before striking.  That is designed for civilian self protection though, not consensual fighting. As you say, it would be much harder to pull off in a consensual fight.


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## jobo (Apr 18, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Unfortunately, when the person has been preparing that strategy and you're not expecting it, much easier said than done.


didnt suggest it was easy, in fact its one of the hardest things to do, in my opinion, the push/ pull reflex is instinctive , someone pushes your arm down you push against them. Learning not to apposed force rather to redirect it or reposition your self takes quite a lot of practice


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 18, 2017)

Danny T said:


> An overhand as shown is a looping strike. Move inside the arc and to the same side the strike is coming from. Easier said than done.Takes practice to move forward rather than trying to back out.


Part of what made Pudzianowski so effective with the tactic was the set up and timing. He caught Gracie moving backwards, so the latter didn't have time to reverse momentum and move inside the arc of the punch. At the same time, he had snuck in close enough so Gracie couldn't move out of reach in time. He also loaded up the punch so he could throw it fast and hard enough so that even if Gracie had managed to disengage his hand and pull back to guard it still probably wouldn't have been set well enough to stop the damage.

Bottom line, the trap + punch worked so well because Pudzianowski won the timing/distancing/setup game before he launched his actual attack. Important lesson there.



Midnight-shadow said:


> This seems like such a simple technique and although I know it's probably really hard to pull off in an actual fight, is this sort of thing common?


Fedor Emelianenko was good at using simple hand traps to set up his entries. I'm sure there are other fighters who have made good use of them as well.

I occasionally play with them in sparring and have had some success, but I won't pretend I'm any real expert on the subject.


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## Danny T (Apr 18, 2017)

Tony D...I very much agree. Set ups are important...Very Important...At the level this game is played, I am constantly amazed at how many supposedly high level fighters are exposed by those who know how to use set ups.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2017)

It's pretty easy to do, especially if you're closing. I mean, if it's part of your repertoire of course.


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## CB Jones (Apr 18, 2017)

Buka said:


> It's pretty easy to do, especially if you're closing. I mean, if it's part of your repertoire of course.



My son traps the lead hand (right hand) and throws a hard straight left hand (he fights southpaw) a lot when he fights.

When he was 8-9 yoa in the advance class he was the youngest and all his sparring partners were 3-6 years older than him.  In training, it was common for him to grab the lead arm and get slung across the ring by his much bigger sparring partners.


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## JP3 (Apr 18, 2017)

jobo said:


> didnt suggest it was easy, in fact its one of the hardest things to do, in my opinion, the push/ pull reflex is instinctive , someone pushes your arm down you push against them. Learning not to apposed force rather to redirect it or reposition your self takes quite a lot of practice


We're going to get you into this aikido thing sooner rather than later, I think.


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## JR 137 (Apr 18, 2017)

JP3 said:


> We're going to get you into this aikido thing sooner rather than later, I think.



We did a lot of that in wrestling.  I'd imagine Judo does quite a bit of it too.

Wrestling made me a significantly better football lineman.


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## drop bear (Apr 20, 2017)

duch hand trap sort of.











And you move your head to defend it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Part of what made Pudzianowski so effective with the tactic was the set up and timing. He caught Gracie moving backwards, so the latter didn't have time to reverse momentum and move inside the arc of the punch. At the same time, he had snuck in close enough so Gracie couldn't move out of reach in time. He also loaded up the punch so he could throw it fast and hard enough so that even if Gracie had managed to disengage his hand and pull back to guard it still probably wouldn't have been set well enough to stop the damage.
> 
> Bottom line, the trap + punch worked so well because Pudzianowski won the timing/distancing/setup game before he launched his actual attack. Important lesson there.
> 
> ...


I've had some success with them, too. I've also managed to mistime them, essentially providing a "reverse trap" for my opponent when I moved my lead hand to trap his just as he was going to deliver a punch with the other hand.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've had some success with them, too. I've also managed to mistime them, essentially providing a "reverse trap" for my opponent when I moved my lead hand to trap his just as he was going to deliver a punch with the other hand.


Yeah, you can definitely have it used against you if it isn't set up right.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, you can definitely have it used against you if it isn't set up right.


Some of my best learning has come from using very good techniques and principles very badly.


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## Buka (Apr 20, 2017)

I guess I've been lucky. Grabbing the front arm in order to "clear the way" was a basic, like a jab or a front kick. One of the first things we learned. (I mean, like the first month). And if we were wearing a full gi top, closing fast and grabbing the arm(gi) above the elbow was also used to "rag doll" them. That's a push, pull, turn or check as you keep moving and pound, repeatedly, with your other hand. (sometimes followed with a sweep) As to the "turn" part I mentioned, you're always turning them to expose the back, as opposed to opening them up - where you'll likely get hammered. God, I've used too many times to remember. Ragdolling was always one of my favorite things to do.

The only times I couldn't use the arm grab, like the one shown in the original OP, was in kickboxing. I used to get called for a foul for it, every single time, so I stopped doing it. At least back then, don't know what the rules are now.


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## marques (Apr 20, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Also, if someone traps your hand like this and then throws a punch, what is the counter to it?


First of all, we should avoid that oportunity for the opponent - distance management, footwork, closer guard, keeping him busy...

After the trapping, I would rise the shoulder and lean the head / body. I think it happens quite often in MMA. But it is not a counter. 

As a counter, I would kick the knee or body (if... because longer weapon). Puting him a bit cautions or off balance is enough, defensively.


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## FriedRice (Apr 29, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> This seems like such a simple technique and although I know it's probably really hard to pull off in an actual fight, is this sort of thing common?
> 
> Also, if someone traps your hand like this and then throws a punch, what is the counter to it?




I like using this against Wing Chun guys. Parry the lead extending hand to come in with an overhand right.

One defense is train to draw circles with your hands, like how BJJ warms up doing leg circles....it defends against dudes trying to grab onto your gi pants.





But this big dude threw the OR, right away...he trained for this tech. 

Another good defense against an OR is to deep shoulder roll while popping the lead elbow up....but it's caught, so you just have the DSR....so just tuck the chin behind the shoulder, squat low and back onto the rear leg.....rear hand cover the face, palm out.... and brace for impact.

Then he's In a nice position for a take-down.


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