# Question about "being ready to open a dojo"



## realg7 (Sep 23, 2016)

In your opinion what are the minimum requirements and or credentials one should have before opening up a dojo to instruct tactical Arts? Should we go by rank , actual experience in training measured by years, or experience in the practical application of these arts in life or death situations?

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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 23, 2016)

Is there a specific tactical art? I would imagine that one's own instructors would be the best judge of if you are ready to open your own dojo. Unless you are creating something new, in which case I would probably go by a combination of rank and experience in various arts (both training and teaching hopefully), although as will be pointed out rank only has meaning in the system it is rewarded in.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 23, 2016)

When your instructors think you're ready to teach, then you're probably ready to teach.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2016)

realg7 said:


> In your opinion what are the minimum requirements and or credentials one should have before opening up a dojo to instruct tactical Arts?



The minimum requirement is somewhere to train, without that everything else is redundant.
Not a flip answer, you'd be surprised how hard it is to get a place big enough with basic conveniences, that and having enough money to cover rent, insurance, publicity, equipment etc. Not many people who haven't been in martial arts long are willing to do that so there's a good chance anywhere opening up won't be run by beginners.


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## marques (Sep 23, 2016)

In fact, to open a dojo the essential requirements are 1) a dojo and 2) clients.
Rankings help with legalities and marketing. Experience training teaching and in real life will be good* or 'just' years training will not do damage.

More seriously, after British Martial Arts & Boxing Association (BMABA) the minimum requirement is a Black Belt or equivalent (3-4 years training 1 style). And it seems to be valid generally speaking. Sometimes a less than Black Belt own a dojo because of the scarcity of instructors and demand from people. And I think it is fine if the rank is high enough and if the instructor keeps training himself somewhere else. Better than nothing.

Besides that, I am also interested in that question, since I have no papers, neither patience for low-level schools.  So I would like also to meet the minimum requirements (papers) in order to be able to manage my own thing legally (thinking about 1-2h training/week in someone else club/gym - or garage), eventually.

*too much experience in real life may make you a trustable self-defence instructor AND indicates you are not a trustable person, who chose dangerous places to live or risky behaviour... showing low self-protection.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 23, 2016)

realg7 said:


> In your opinion what are the minimum requirements and or credentials one should have before opening up a dojo to instruct tactical Arts? Should we go by rank , actual experience in training measured by years, or experience in the practical application of these arts in life or death situations?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Quite simply, the ability to teach something others find useful. Rank may matter within a given context, or it may not.


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## marques (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The minimum requirement is somewhere to train, without that everything else is redundant.
> Not a flip answer, you'd be surprised how hard it is to get a place big enough with basic conveniences, that and having enough money to cover rent, insurance, publicity, equipment etc. Not many people who haven't been in martial arts long are willing to do that so there's a good chance anywhere opening up won't be run by beginners.


There are a lot of 'beginners' teaching, in fact. They sell belts*, fitness for kids and birthday parties**.
If you know about business, you can sell martial arts. Most of the people do not know what really is a martial art and trust a good seller. 

* I got one white for myself on a (paid) trial class... asked for sparring and... "only from green belt"...
** near me, 2 clubs offer birthday parties. Is it normal?!? lol


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## Juany118 (Sep 23, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The minimum requirement is somewhere to train, without that everything else is redundant.
> Not a flip answer, you'd be surprised how hard it is to get a place big enough with basic conveniences, that and having enough money to cover rent, insurance, publicity, equipment etc. Not many people who haven't been in martial arts long are willing to do that so there's a good chance anywhere opening up won't be run by beginners.


Yeah and that can be expensive.  The school I go to basically makes enough money at the moment to be self supporting (the Sifu basically runs the school as a side line/labor of love out of his Consulting company)  but we have an opportunity to expand to a 6 day a week school next year and that means needing more space.  A Provisional Master under TWC will be free to move to our area, making this possible, so that would mean being able to add more class days.  Thing is we need to sock away almost 6 grand for the move while still covering current expenses.  Fun times.

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## JowGaWolf (Sep 23, 2016)

marques said:


> In fact, to open a dojo the essential requirements are 1) a dojo and 2) clients.


This ranks as the most basic needs.  An indoor facility to train in and clients.   It's really difficult to have a school when outdoors is the only place to train.  When my Sifu went overseas, we had to close the existing school and find an alternative place to train.  I think we trained outside for about 7 months before we could find a place to train.  During those 7 months, there was only one real student that attended practice.  The other 5 students were only there to make sure that the school didn't die out.  During those 7 months we didn't get one new student.  Once we found an indoor facility we were able to go back to night classes and weather didn't have such a detrimental effect on attendance.

I have also seen where my Sifu has as a place (most recently) but no students. A situation like that requires a really strong marketing campaign to bring in new students. This is especially true for non-belted systems.  The general rule of business is to have customers before you open.

If you have a low cost place to practice in, then you can afford to open before having students, such starting business in a place that wants a martial arts component to their gym. They'll usually supply the marketing and help get the students for you as your dojo is part of additional services offered by an existing business.  When I was first looking for a place to train in, I called a martial art school in hope of allowing the existing students to train in their gym for the winter. The person who answered was a fitness gym representative who stated that they didn't run the martial art school or have much to do with them, they only sold memberships to the school as one of the services that a gym offered.  

If you have a place to train and existing clients then that's all you really need, and then there's the legal stuff, which is the easy part.


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## Juany118 (Sep 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> This ranks as the most basic needs.  An indoor facility to train in and clients.   It's really difficult to have a school when outdoors is the only place to train.  When my Sifu went overseas, we had to close the existing school and find an alternative place to train.  I think we trained outside for about 7 months before we could find a place to train.  During those 7 months, there was only one real student that attended practice.  The other 5 students were only there to make sure that the school didn't die out.  During those 7 months we didn't get one new student.  Once we found an indoor facility we were able to go back to night classes and weather didn't have such a detrimental effect on attendance.
> 
> I have also seen where my Sifu has as a place (most recently) but no students. A situation like that requires a really strong marketing campaign to bring in new students. This is especially true for non-belted systems.  The general rule of business is to have customers before you open.
> 
> ...


In so far as out door training I think that may be a factor of the art and Marketing.  There is a Krav Maga school near me, that I am considering adding to my WC/Kali school.  The Instructor teaches in a local park 365 days a year on purpose.  His idea is "I am teaching a fighting system for the street so we train on the street in all seasons and weather.". He actually has a decent student base, believe it or not.

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## JP3 (Sep 23, 2016)

I'm curious about the meaning you are putting on the word "tactical?"  I'm assuming you mean practical, and real world, not the stylish performance of pretty, idiomatic kata? I may be wrong.


IMO one of the best places to learn real world, application-driven martial art techniques which are proven to work is in the Armed Forces, it doesn't get much grittier than that.

Barring that recruitment thing... as stated above, the first requirement is a place that is stable, and isn't going to go away. Paying rent is a big problem, and you have to find a way around it. For me/us, it's to jump into an existing school when they aren't using/on their own mat, and offer to pay dues to use their space during heir unused time.  If we didn't have that opportunity, that means coming out of pocket for our own space, and our out of pocket would probably quad, or quintuple.


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## realg7 (Sep 23, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Is there a specific tactical art? I would imagine that one's own instructors would be the best judge of if you are ready to open your own dojo. Unless you are creating something new, in which case I would probably go by a combination of rank and experience in various arts (both training and teaching hopefully), although as will be pointed out rank only has meaning in the system it is rewarded in.


Blending Kali, kick boxing, and wrestling. My instructor wants to start the business with me. Like a hybrid tactical with some MMA influences. We are both credentialed in various arts.

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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 23, 2016)

realg7 said:


> Blending Kali, kick boxing, and wrestling. My instructor wants to start the business with me. Like a hybrid tactical with some MMA influences. We are both credentialed in various arts.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


If both of you guys have experience, and I'm going with the obvious assumption that your instructor thinks you are ready, and you think your instructor is qualified as well (which is why I would guess you're training with him), I say go for it. My one caution would be to make sure both of you are in agreement regarding the material and when it is supposed to be taught, along with why. Nothing could ruin it more quickly than early disagreements on what should be taught.

Also, depending on what you mean by the world tactical, if neither of you have experience in the self-defense realm of MA (none of those arts are really self-defense-focused outside of kali possibly), I would suggest having someone in that realm become an instructor as well so it is not neglected or have false-information.


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## Tez3 (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> There are a lot of 'beginners' teaching, in fact. They sell belts*, fitness for kids and birthday parties**.
> If you know about business, you can sell martial arts. Most of the people do not know what really is a martial art and trust a good seller.
> 
> * I got one white for myself on a (paid) trial class... asked for sparring and... "only from green belt"...
> ** near me, 2 clubs offer birthday parties. Is it normal?!? lol




A white belt doesn't mean anything and while I know of no one that does birthday parties it could well be a way to pay the rent. doesn't mean anything one way or another. I also don't know of anyone that makes money out of running martial arts classes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> This ranks as the most basic needs.  An indoor facility to train in and clients.   It's really difficult to have a school when outdoors is the only place to train.  When my Sifu went overseas, we had to close the existing school and find an alternative place to train.  I think we trained outside for about 7 months before we could find a place to train.  During those 7 months, there was only one real student that attended practice.  The other 5 students were only there to make sure that the school didn't die out.  During those 7 months we didn't get one new student.  Once we found an indoor facility we were able to go back to night classes and weather didn't have such a detrimental effect on attendance.
> 
> I have also seen where my Sifu has as a place (most recently) but no students. A situation like that requires a really strong marketing campaign to bring in new students. This is especially true for non-belted systems.  The general rule of business is to have customers before you open.
> 
> ...



There are a lot of business-side considerations, as you and others are pointing out. I read the OP as asking how to know he was ready to teach, and that's what I answered. Perhaps his question was closer to what you're addressing, so I'll go a bit further.

To find out if you have what it takes to open and run a school, you need a place to teach where cost is low. A rec center or YMCA or such will do if htey have a usable space and no competing programs. If you let them keep the income (some or all), you can probably get the space for free. Now you get to practice your marketing, and work on building up the students you'd need to support a school. Figure out the attendance you'd need to pay for rent, insurance, utilities, equipment replacement, etc. When you have more than that many students for several months (you must have more, because you will lose a portion when you move) then you start looking for an appropriate space.

Consult with several instuctors (in your area and elsewhere) to make sure you're considering all the pieces.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 24, 2016)

realg7 said:


> My instructor wants to start the business with me.


i would advise against this.   partnership businesses are more likely to fail.  when that happens you will lose the business and your teacher along with any organization affiliation.  in business there can only really be one boss.  yes certain people can be responsible for certain areas of the business but there needs to be a top decision maker.  if that is your instructor (because he is your teacher)  then in fact you are his employee, while carrying the financial risk and personal investment. 
not saying this is your case , but in many instances the senior instructor is looking for financial gain for the use of his title and reputation. while the junior does all the work. this type of set up leads to frustration and resentment. 
i understand this is not the advise you asked for so i will leave it at that.

to address.. if your ready...


realg7 said:


> Should we go by rank , actual experience in training measured by years, or experience in the practical application of these arts in life or death situations?


actually all three.  think of a professional resume.  that is really what you are trying to build up.  some years ago i personally sat down and typed up a martial art resume. ( its three pages long)  if your personal resume is one or two lines , then you may not be ready.
the consumer is the final judge of whether or not your ready.  people will vote with their feet.  if the business fails then you were not ready.  but credentials only matter within a context.  who is your potential customer?  are you going to teach law enforcement or do kids birthday parties?  each one has a different criteria that are on opposite sides of the spectrum.
_ person "A"_
  was a Florida state police officer for 10 years, 4th degree black belt in karate,  Ceritified Florida defensive tactics instructor and an expert adviser for the court system.
_person "B"_
graduated with a BS in education, was an elementary school teacher for 20 years and has a green belt in karate.

big difference but both would be considered qualified depending on the context.
the most important part is integrity.  if you have doubt about your own qualifications then you are probably not ready.


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## marques (Sep 24, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> A white belt doesn't mean anything


Actually, it means I could not spar before paying a couple of graduations (green belt). Sparring class was the best they had for me.


Tez3 said:


> I also don't know of anyone that makes money out of running martial arts classes.


You must be lying. You certainly know more people in that business than me and I already now a few (3-4 immediately in mind) living on that, no other job. I am almost sure the instructors of that last dojo are living on Martial art + fitness, adding more a few-.

I was to omit the 'birthday' think. But... Actually, it doesn't mean 'beginner', but surely means business wise (and not martial art skill), which was my point. (Perhaps my writing wasn't the clearest.)


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## Tez3 (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> You must be lying.



Really? Do you normally speak to people like that?

Despite the fact I think you are being rude and ignorant I will answer you. No, I'm not lying, I don't know anyone who just lives off teaching martial arts other than Iain Abernethy and he doesn't run schools or classes as such, he's a man of integrity and honesty who earns an honest crust.
That I don't know anyone who just earns a living from teaching martial arts in the manner you describe doesn't mean there aren't any, it means those I know, train with etc don't do it. Everyone I know, also has a 'day job'. I don't know anyone who runs schools or holds birthday parties, neither of which I disapprove of because it's none of my business what other's do, it's up to them. I imagine if you are a martial arts mad child having a birthday party in your dojo would be the height of fun for them so why not. If the owners feel they need to do this to pay the rent then good for them, I'm not going to get into the whole argument about the so called 'purity' of martial arts schools etc.
I know people who run gyms, there's kick boxing, MMA, fitness, boxercise, yoga etc etc but it's hard work and doesn't bring in as much as you'd think so many of those owners also have 'day jobs'.
There's a JKD school near me, run by a friend of my son's, it's a cracking place, lots of classes, lots of students but the owner has his own business, he doesn't make money from martial arts. 
Perhaps before you start calling people liars you might like to take yourself off and give yourself a good talking to, just because you know some people who can earn a living doesn't mean the rest of us have. Just because those people earn a living from martial arts doesn't make them rip off merchants or thieves, you perhaps want to adjust your attitude and you may find a more congenial martial arts class. Rather than think you know it all, perhaps you should look at the empty cup idea. many places don't let you spar until after a certain grade, that's their prerogative, perhaps you were annoyed that they wouldn't take your word that you were this marvellous fighter who had deigned to join them and wanted to see some techniques from you before letting you loose in sparring. How dare they have such a sensible attitude!
Son, next time don't call me a liar, wind your neck in and think about what you write, twice, before you type anything up again.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> Actually, it means I could not spar before paying a couple of graduations (green belt). Sparring class was the best they had for me.
> 
> You must be lying. You certainly know more people in that business than me and I already now a few (3-4 immediately in mind) living on that, no other job. I am almost sure the instructors of that last dojo are living on Martial art + fitness, adding more a few-.
> 
> I was to omit the 'birthday' think. But... Actually, it doesn't mean 'beginner', but surely means business wise (and not martial art skill), which was my point. (Perhaps my writing wasn't the clearest.)


Many instructors don't make a living at it. Even one of the instructors I know who has a long-established school with more than a dozen classes a week doesn't make his living on it. I'm not sure if he even clears a profit of any substance or not.


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## marques (Sep 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Many instructors don't make a living at it. Even one of the instructors I know who has a long-established school with more than a dozen classes a week doesn't make his living on it. I'm not sure if he even clears a profit of any substance or not.


I am not saying many instructors are making a living on it. I am saying it is hard to believe most of the instructors are not making some money (=making money out, right?). And I said I know people (and I know very little) living on it as extreme examples.

In my first month teaching, I was making money for my organisation and for me (50/50) with a few students. (Ok, all my earnings I put back on my own training and equipment, fuel... but it was from the first month.) So how to believe people in the market for decades and/or dozens of student don't make some money?
Ok, I put a lot of money and time on my own training before having some earnings. But after decades still not making some money overall? You don't know no one making some money, really?

Ok, you may say it is like this. I will not argue more about that. It is since a while no more about 'requirements to open a dojo'. Perhaps about 'requirements to keep the door open'...  New thread to come?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> I am not saying many instructors are making a living on it. I am saying it is hard to believe most of the instructors are not making some money (=making money out, right?). And I said I know people (and I know very little) living on it as extreme examples.
> 
> In my first month teaching, I was making money for my organisation and for me (50/50) with a few students. (Ok, all my earnings I put back on my own training and equipment, fuel... but it was from the first month.) So how to believe people in the market for decades and/or dozens of student don't make some money?
> Ok, I put a lot of money and time on my own training before having some earnings. But after decades still not making some money overall? You don't know no one making some money, really?
> ...


To give you an idea, I think at my current rates I'd need about 30-40 students to break even on equipment costs, insurance, rent, etc. Since I can only reasonably do about 25 students in a class, and would expect two classes per student per week, I'd need 4 classes to even break even. That's the max number of classes I can currently offer, so break-even is really my end game. I've been using cheap equipment and free space, and in a year I've made no personal income from my program. Granted, my current program is VERY small, but costs add up fast. Just my cheapo mats (which may last another 6-12 months) cost me about $1,000 and some hours of personal time to make them more usable.


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## Tez3 (Sep 24, 2016)

I'm sure there are people who make 'some' money and people who earn a living at teaching martials arts ( why shouldn't they?) I just don't know them. I know people in my own style but know very few in TKD, Shotokan, Kenpo, WC etc etc. I know a good many people in the MMA world, they don't take classes. So my not knowing anyone who makes a living at it does not mean I'm a liar, it means I don't know anyone. I don't know any Olympic skiers or ice skaters either or football players, know some rugby and cricket ones though. I know the UK is a small place but I don't know all the martial artists in it, how ridiculous.

*Oh and marques, I'm waiting for your apology for calling me a liar btw.*


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## realg7 (Sep 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> To give you an idea, I think at my current rates I'd need about 30-40 students to break even on equipment costs, insurance, rent, etc. Since I can only reasonably do about 25 students in a class, and would expect two classes per student per week, I'd need 4 classes to even break even. That's the max number of classes I can currently offer, so break-even is really my end game. I've been using cheap equipment and free space, and in a year I've made no personal income from my program. Granted, my current program is VERY small, but costs add up fast. Just my cheapo mats (which may last another 6-12 months) cost me about $1,000 and some hours of personal time to make them more usable.


What do you teach? Most tactical arts schools around here are charging 100-120$ a month per student. I'll likely charge 70....and break even...dang, perhaps Mobile Private lessons to the rich folks is the way to go

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## marques (Sep 24, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> *Oh and marques, I'm waiting for your apology for calling me a liar btw.*


Apologies. I would've said "kidding" or something like that, something softer, but still showing surprise. 
Sometimes I feel people does (says) anything to have 'reason'. Apologies again, since it was not the case here.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> ** near me, 2 clubs offer birthday parties. Is it normal?!? lol



I run birthday parties, they are awesome and a lot of fun.  Why wouldn't a school run birthday parties if they teach kids?


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## Andrew Green (Sep 24, 2016)

realg7 said:


> What do you teach? Most tactical arts schools around here are charging 100-120$ a month per student. I'll likely charge 70....and break even...dang, perhaps Mobile Private lessons to the rich folks is the way to go
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



Why would you want to be the cheapest?  And the whole break even thing is fine if that is your only goal, but schools price the way they do for a reason, at $70 you are seriously limiting your growth and ability to serve your clients.


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## realg7 (Sep 24, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> Why would you want to be the cheapest?  And the whole break even thing is fine if that is your only goal, but schools price the way they do for a reason, at $70 you are seriously limiting your growth and ability to serve your clients.


Maybe I'll do that as an introductory rate for the first 20 students or so?

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## Tez3 (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> Apologies. I would've said "kidding" or something like that, something softer, but still showing surprise.
> Sometimes I feel people does (says) anything to have 'reason'. Apologies again, since it was not the case here.




Apology accepted. Most styles in the UK tend to stay within their own, we don't really have big mixed style competitions or many seminars where styles mix. Iain Abernethy does seminars where you get people from different styles though but we don't talk about how clubs/classes are run or whether anyone makes money out of teaching, too busy training then off to our respective homes. I know a TKD  instructor on here who has a school but I don't know how he runs it, it's never come up. I've seen ads for a couple of chains of schools but I again don't know how the schools are run, I suspect as a part time job, it's unlikely to be a money spinner unless you are in charge of the chain and get people to open under you, like franchising or pyramid selling I suppose.


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## marques (Sep 24, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> I run birthday parties, they are awesome and a lot of fun.  Why wouldn't a school run birthday parties if they teach kids?


That is business wise. That is ok and from the recent data here, perhaps a real need.
But teaching kids? Martial arts? That in a strict sense is more about killing than fitness and fun... Wich ages? Ok, probably it is also a need, because if 'we' don't include kids, who left? So 'we' teach kids a softer and fun program (kids I am thinking of below ~10 years). Business wise.

Just it is not what I have in mind when thinking about martial arts school: 1 person performing a kata with the other people is clapping hands in a circle, fitness as the main thing, poor teaching, birthday parties... But the demand exists. I keep my (fantastic?) concept that perhaps don't exist on Earth and perhaps the way to exist is to be less than ideal... (according to my ideal, if nothing else) 

My critics are nothing personal. Just a sum of bad experiences searching the masters in Paris. After that I found good things in Aberdeen. Now, near Peak District you imagine sheep don't do martial arts.  And surely I will find my place, anyway. Just need time and a few bad (or funny) experiences in the way. 

I stopped complaining, right now.


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## Tez3 (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> After that I found good things in Aberdeen.



You are lucky, I hated the place and left as soon as I could and never came back.



marques said:


> Now, near Peak District you imagine sheep don't do martial arts.



You have to watch sheep, they actually do kill people. It's assumed they are docile, they aren't at lambing time and the rams certainly aren't docile.

As for Derbyshire instructors and clubs have a look on here for a good one. Club Listing | The British Combat Association


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## Andrew Green (Sep 24, 2016)

marques said:


> That is business wise. That is ok and from the recent data here, perhaps a real need.
> But teaching kids? Martial arts? That in a strict sense is more about killing than fitness and fun... Wich ages? Ok, probably it is also a need, because if 'we' don't include kids, who left? So 'we' teach kids a softer and fun program (kids I am thinking of below ~10 years). Business wise.




I've been in this coming up on 30 years, it has always been about fitness and fun to me, never killing.  I'm not military, don't think I will ever kill anyone.  Martial arts have always been about sport.  They are not military arts, certainly not most empty hand arts.  All the way back to ancient greece we know they where olympic events.  China certainly had competitions, Japan as well.  

It does make good business sense to have parties, but it also makes sense in terms of building the culture in your school.  Even in the "adult only" places and seminars I've trained at, people partied together.  After a big seminar we'd all go out for dinner or drinks.  After a testing day their would be a after party.  Kids need their social events too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2016)

realg7 said:


> What do you teach? Most tactical arts schools around here are charging 100-120$ a month per student. I'll likely charge 70....and break even...dang, perhaps Mobile Private lessons to the rich folks is the way to go
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


I teach an art called Nihon Goshin Aikido (Shojin-ryu is my own off-shoot of the art). I charge $50/month to new students, and less with family discounts. All of my current students joined before rates reached $50, and I make a point of not raising a student's rates.


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## marques (Sep 25, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I teach an art called Nihon Goshin Aikido (Shojin-ryu is my own off-shoot of the art). I charge $50/month to new students, and less with family discounts. All of my current students joined before rates reached $50, and I make a point of not raising a student's rates.


Why that? Inflation will kill you (your school) at some point in time. Better low and slow increases than suddenly. 
It seems you are below the market price. (Am I right?) Why that?

PS: My first school made the same point. And then they could not keep their word and I was not happy with that. Then older students were paying a bit less than new ones to soften that issue. Then I discovered I was paying more than newer students for years. Not happy again (Furthermore, the instructor said it was my fault!). I like one rate for all (individuals). Discount for families or special groups. All as clear as possible.


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## Tez3 (Sep 25, 2016)

marques said:


> Why that? Inflation will kill you (your school) at some point in time. Better low and slow increases than suddenly.
> It seems you are below the market price. (Am I right?) Why that?
> 
> PS: My first school made the same point. And then they could not keep their word and I was not happy with that. Then older students were paying a bit less than new ones to soften that issue. Then I discovered I was paying more than newer students for years. Not happy again (Furthermore, the instructor said it was my fault!). I like one rate for all (individuals). Discount for families or special groups. All as clear as possible.



It depends on whether he's running it as a business or just to teach and needs to charge enough to cover all the costs. Many people, my gym too, doesn't run as a business just as a club. We just charge enough to cover costs not to make a profit.
There is also the thing that people don't value anything they get for free, which why we aren't free as much as anything. There's no reason why martial arts instructors shouldn't be paid for teaching, they will have spent considerable time, effort and money on their own training, to recoup some of those costs back by passing on their skills and knowledge isn't immoral, it's sound common sense.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2016)

How much is the insurance for teaching MA? Is it based on the number of students, or a general rate? I am considering teach in a part but honestly don't feel experienced enough at 23 to teach...still, it would be useful to know the costs, so that I do not go bankrupt trying to teach others kenpo/kempo.


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## Buka (Sep 25, 2016)

realg7 said:


> In your opinion what are the minimum requirements and or credentials one should have before opening up a dojo to instruct tactical Arts? Should we go by rank , actual experience in training measured by years, or experience in the practical application of these arts in life or death situations?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk




What kind of dojo are we talking about? A full time, rent a space in a commercial building and signing a lease?
Or acquiring a space somewhere in which to teach whatever it is that you teach?


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## realg7 (Sep 25, 2016)

Buka said:


> What kind of dojo are we talking about? A full time, rent a space in a commercial building and signing a lease?
> Or acquiring a space somewhere in which to teach whatever it is that you teach?


Renting a space in a strip mall

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Sep 25, 2016)

realg7 said:


> Renting a space in a *strip mall*
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk



It has been explained to me what this is but I still giggle when I read this, my mind always thinks it's something else!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2016)

marques said:


> Why that? Inflation will kill you (your school) at some point in time. Better low and slow increases than suddenly.
> It seems you are below the market price. (Am I right?) Why that?
> 
> PS: My first school made the same point. And then they could not keep their word and I was not happy with that. Then older students were paying a bit less than new ones to soften that issue. Then I discovered I was paying more than newer students for years. Not happy again (Furthermore, the instructor said it was my fault!). I like one rate for all (individuals). Discount for families or special groups. All as clear as possible.


My philosophy is that long-term students should pay less than short-term students. So, once a student joins, I keep them at that rate. When a new student joins, they pay whatever my rate is at that point, so if I had the regular churn of the average program (I neither gain nor lose at the average rate), then most of my students would be in the first rank or two, and most would be paying my current rate, while the most senior students would be paying less. I expect more of senior students (helping maintain, participating in demos and seminars, mentoring newer students), so I don't want to charge them as much. Inflation drives new student fees, not old student fees.

And, yes, I'm well below market average for my area, because I don't have the costs of a school (my current space is free). If I had to move to a paid space, I'd have to consider raising rates slightly even for my current students.


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## Buka (Sep 25, 2016)

Strip malls can be good, or not, depends on the deal, the lease, the population of the surrounding area, parking, the landlord etc. And, believe it or not, the window. (curb appeal)

To start - I'll tell you what I tell everyone, if you really love Martial arts training, don't ever open a dojo. EVER! Because your training goes out the window, as it should, because your students, and your business/lease will become the primary focus. Your own training becomes an afterthought.

Okay, back to your original OP, requirements. I'm going to take it as a given, your ability to teach and sell yourself to the public.

Number one is money. Have to have enough of it to start, not just to open, but to take you through the first six months. Number two is an attorney, he has to go over the lease and the town/city, county rules and laws.

It would help if you had building inspector or a friend in the trades that could check out the things that guys like you and me don't readily see at first glance. It would help a great deal if you could find and talk to the last tenant, find out what the bills were for electricity, heat, ect. (and how the landlord is) You have to check your insurance options and find their cost. You really NEED to figure out what your monthly nut is going to be. Every penny of it.

You need an attorney to read over the lease, an attorney for your taxes (and have one of them draw up what people sign when they join)

Figure out what your start up costs are going to be, from decoration, office supplies (as much or as little as they're going to be) equipment costs to start, uniforms for your clientèle, and anything else you're going to tell them they need. You need to see where they can get those things themselves and make sure you're prices are at least competitive. You'll need a first aid kit, bathroom supplies, cleaning supplies etc.

You'll need a marketing plan and sufficient funds to carry it out. It's not a good idea to just sit and wait for people to drop in. Give some thought to your window and front door. You do not want them to be "tough guy" intimidating, you want them to be welcoming. Design a plan for kids. A kids class can pay the rent. Parents spend money on their kids, often, more than they spend on themselves. Consider a fitness class for moms, market accordingly - make it friendly, upbeat and accessible time wise.

You'll want to make a good first impression and get in good with whatever businesses are beside you, their word of mouth can help, especially if they've been there a while.

There's more, but that's probably enough requirements to think about out of the gate. And these things really are "requirements".


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> Strip malls can be good, or not, depends on the deal, the lease, the population of the surrounding area, parking, the landlord etc. And, believe it or not, the window. (curb appeal)
> 
> To start - I'll tell you what I tell everyone, if you really love Martial arts training, don't ever open a dojo. EVER! Because your training goes out the window, as it should, because your students, and your business/lease will become the primary focus. Your own training becomes an afterthought.
> 
> ...


This is a good list. I have discussed similar thoughts with several instructors, and all - like Buka - say a kids class is a necessity (or very nearly so). It's one of the reasons I'll probably never try to make money with a school - I just don't have an interest in teaching kids. If I wanted to open a school in a retail space, I'd either have to teach kids or have a very reliable partner who did.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> Strip malls can be good, or not, depends on the deal, the lease, the population of the surrounding area, parking, the landlord etc. And, believe it or not, the window. (curb appeal)
> 
> To start - I'll tell you what I tell everyone, if you really love Martial arts training, don't ever open a dojo. EVER! Because your training goes out the window, as it should, because your students, and your business/lease will become the primary focus. Your own training becomes an afterthought.
> 
> ...



never used an attorney.  and talking to the zoning board is a must, you may need a occupancy permit.  i ran into problems once because the inspector said the space needed a wider front door and a wider back hall exit.  i couldnt alter the building and already signed the lease. 

when teaching you also need a solid unshakable view of yourself.  when no one shows up for class you will doubt your self, when people quit you will blame yourself and when students fail it will be your fault.  on the flip side, the good times are great.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> never used an attorney.  and talking to the zoning board is a must, you may need a occupancy permit.  i ran into problems once because the inspector said the space needed a wider front door and a wider back hall exit.  i couldnt alter the building and already signed the lease.
> 
> when teaching you also need a solid unshakable view of yourself.  when no one shows up for class you will doubt your self, when people quit you will blame yourself and when students fail it will be your fault.  on the flip side, the good times are great.



I've gotten away with not using an attorney on some things, but I'm with Buka on this one - it's a good idea to at least have an attorney involved in the initial lease, your waiver, etc. There are intricacies involved that we are not trained for.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> it's a good idea to at least have an attorney involved in the initial lease, your waiver, etc. There are intricacies involved that we are not trained for.


agreed, i was not advising others to not get professionals involved.  i was only making a juxtapose  and pointing out a few of my failures.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> agreed, i was not advising others to not get professionals involved.  i was only making a juxtapose  and pointing out a few of my failures.


Which I have shared with you, at times. I sometimes lean too heavily on my own "knowledge" in business. I've been lucky, but prefer now to involve someone who has knowledge (without the quotes).


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## Juany118 (Oct 3, 2016)

marques said:


> I am not saying many instructors are making a living on it. I am saying it is hard to believe most of the instructors are not making some money (=making money out, right?). And I said I know people (and I know very little) living on it as extreme examples.
> 
> In my first month teaching, I was making money for my organisation and for me (50/50) with a few students. (Ok, all my earnings I put back on my own training and equipment, fuel... but it was from the first month.) So how to believe people in the market for decades and/or dozens of student don't make some money?
> Ok, I put a lot of money and time on my own training before having some earnings. But after decades still not making some money overall? You don't know no one making some money, really?
> ...




Well my school is 100% basically just covering operating expenses (and some "oh crap" cash) and the more I hear from others the more I realize this is almost the "rule".  Teaching the classes is not time intensive and teaching martial arts seems more a passion than anything else, so the instructors all have "day jobs".  Were you covering the rent for 1000+ square feet, electric and gas (when winter rolled around)?

It's one thing to be teaching a class at the YMCA (or other shared space) and another to have your own dedicated space.  Heck we are starting to run seminars now for the general public because we have run out of space, found a new location, but need to come up with $5 grand in a certain time frame to make the move happen.  Problem is the instructors for our seminars (such as one we did on active shooters for civilians recently) are professionals in our field and even though we charge less than say a Corporation would be charged for such a seminar people say "what?!?!? that's too expensive" so we have been breaking even.


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