# Claims on the Internet.



## RyuShiKan

Claims on the Internet.

Lately there has been much dispute over dubious claims made on the Internet and people unwilling to corroborate their claims. Mind you this is not aimed at anyone specific since I have come across several such cases over the last 2 or 3 years.

There are certain folks that think we should overlook dubious claims if the person or persons have the proper ability or skill level in whatever it is they do.

Is it me or does this type of thinking sound a bit off not to mention dishonest.

By their rational I could declare to have gotten a PhD. from Harvard and it wouldnt matter if I really ever went there as long as I knew my subject matter well enough, and anyone that dare doubt my claim and ask me for my credentials is nothing more than an unhappy  trouble maker.

Companies will often ask to see a persons diploma, grade point averages and letters of reference..why do you think that is?
Maybe they are just part of this big group of unhappy troublemakers that have nothing better to do.
In the martial arts world there are people that have faked or claimed certain credentials when in fact they had no connection to that particular school or teacher. Either way, be academics or MAs it is still committing a type of fraud. If we turn a blind eye to such things are we not also guilty of perpetuating that same lie. Kind of like if you are not part of the solution youre part of the problem

People have commented that if you really doubt their skill why dont you go and check them out.
This has become the all too common War Cry for people that are on the defensive from making or being associated with folks that make just such dubious claims. They know it will never happen since most people wont travel to the next state to do something like let alone visit someone they dont care for, so they can feel safe in saying such things from the comfort of their chair. 

I think, and this is my very limited psychological opinion, that people that claim multiple high (bogus) dan grades are similar to those women that buy lots of jewelry.
Some MA people need all those high dan grades to look, sound and feel more legit and those women that buy too much jewelery do so to make themselves feel more beautiful, and worthy of attention.

Having said that, many MA people that claim all those lofty ranks also make statements like I have been in xxxx number of real life situations so I know what I am talking about because I have proved it in real life.
Statements like these also are difficult if not impossible to corroborate.

I hold MA people to a higher level of integrity than non-MA people since MA people are supposed to have the skill and hopefully the responsibility to know where and when to use their art which has the potential to be deadly. Part of the responsibility of knowing a martial art is being a person of good moral characterlying and making fraudulent claims is not what I would call sound moral character.


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## KenpoDragon

Very well said,RYUSHIKAN,I agree with you on this matter,but I must say what specific,claims to fame are you referring to???  You have peeked my interest on this matter,I know of some individuals who claim this or that but which ones are you referring to?:mst: :samurai: 

                                            With Honor and Respect,
                                                                     Mr.Tanaka:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

As I said earlier it is not aimed at specific individuals.
However, there are several folks out there that claim ranks over 5th dan in no less than 10 arts, some claim to be PhDs, one was is still claiming a PhD from a University he made up and was selling advanced University degrees and got busted for it.


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## yilisifu

I don't think RyuShihkan is pointing his finger at any one in particular.  But on this board there have been people who claim high dan grades but who cannot or will not back them up, and if anyone questions their claim he/she is labelled as a "troublemaker."


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## RyuShiKan

Several people have claimed connections to Asian teachers and were found out to have no connection or at the very most met them for one day.
A few years ago someone claimed they were highly trained in and connected to a style my friend used to belong to here in Japan.
I made a phone call to ask my friend about this individual and come to find out that person had only met the head teacher of that style for one day and never actually trained with him. My friend remembered it well because when that person returned to the US they asked the Honbu he had visited for dan rank!
That same individual claimed rank in a style from Okinawa another phone call and he was proven yet again to be passing himself off as something he was not.


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## Mike Clarke

It is a mark of immaturity to claim things one has not earned or been awarded through legitimate means. This has not detured some folks though as we have seen on this board and others.

Claims on the net are often wild due to the space between those making the claims and those who are in a postion to [physically] prove them wrong. Also, one must not forget your point RSK, that even if an individual has some skill, it does not give them the rite to claim endorsment from groups or instructors they have not trained with.

Due to the nature of the net I doubt this problem will ever be solved? And due to the nature of some human beings, I doubt this problem will ever go away either? But you know such things are not new nore exclusive to the net. 

I recognize people for what they are as I see them, not what they tell me they are. I observe them and make my own judgment. I expect others to do the same towards me. The certificates and deplomas I have been awarded over the years, I take as my teachers endorsment of my character and abilities, but I don't expect anyone else to automatically agree with them.

When people come to know me and see how I live and train, they will make their own minds up about me. Their opinion may or may not agree with that of my teachers, but as I'm concerned only in the views of my sensei, then I can live with other peoples opinions [either way] without concern.

Mike.


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## Matt Stone

RyuShiKan and I both knew an individual in Japan whose martial arts training and skill were at the very best dubious.  His methods, techniques and claims to lineage and rank were more akin to a comic book than traditional martial arts.

I knew another person who claimed to hold 5th dan or higher in 9 different arts.  He was 23.

While they were both very kind people, what concerns me the most about what they do is the fact that people who are ignorant of the effectiveness of any particular martial art will train with them, achieve a rank at some point, and think they are empowered with their skills and training to be capable of defending themselves against attacks.

When people either create their own art from arts they have studied (often not long enough to realize that what they think they are contributing to the MA community already exists in various forms in all of the arts they previously studied), or create their own art out of thin air, they do the public a huge disservice.  They are presenting themselves as purveyors of material that is dangerous - not to the attacker, but to the consumer.

It is for reasons like this that there are laws against committing fraud.  And fraud is exactly what it is.

Sure, a person can study multiple arts.  Sure, a person could possibly achieve rank in multiple arts.  But sometimes you have to admit that enough is enough.  

"Instructors" who are of dubious background and training, who either cannot or will not come clean about the reality of their background (I have heard it told that Olaf Simon of Temple Kung Fu fame never studied martial arts a day in his life...  ), are doing nothing more than stealing the fees from their unwitting students, and it is no less a theft than if the money were conned from them in a hundred other ways.

I disagree with organizations for a lot of reasons, but one good reason for them is to ensure standards are maintained and that people are unable to say they are something that in fact they are not.

Just my humble and devalued 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> When people either create their own art from arts they have studied (often not long enough to realize that what they think they are contributing to the MA community already exists in various forms in all of the arts they previously studied), they do the public a huge disservice.  They are presenting themselves as purveyors of material that is dangerous - not to the attacker, but to the consumer.
> 
> It is for reasons like this that there are laws against committing fraud.  And fraud is exactly what it is.
> 
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



I do not agree at all. Fraud is fraud. But just because some people choose to walk a differant path does not mean that is pure crap and not work. 

I beleive it "can be" crap or fake but is not automatically crap. Bruce told my Sigung that his fighters were competent within 18 months. At that time, that was unheard of in the martial arts. He did not learn a complete system. Was he afraud? Did he teach material that was dangerous to the consumer. 

No to both questions.


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## Matt Stone

*Akja* - 

Two things - 

#1:  If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context.  You failed to do so in my reply, and the excerpt you quoted was linked intimately to the sentence that followed it.

#2:  If a person studies something only partially, and decides after said partial study that they belive the field of study to be lacking in certain particulars, how do they know that said particulars do not simply exist within the portion they have yet to study?

Brucie only studied part of what Wing Chun had to offer.  His education in it was lacking.  If it was a question of mobility, then perhaps rather than discounting Wing Chun's effectiveness in that area he could have delved further into it to discover in what ways Wing Chun does away with the perception of weakness in that area.

Or he could just make up his own thing instead.

Much easier to go the second route for most people, especially those who are bent on defrauding the public in order to pay the bills and feed their families.  Noble motivations, surely, but the deed remains criminally negligent.

Did Brucie's experiment work?  Dunno.  I've never fought a JKD person.  My teacher was a JKD chapter leader at one point, and his opinion is that JKD blows goats.  Dunno.  I've never trained in JKD.  What I _do_ know, however, is that in only a few well publicized and documented instances, making a call regarding a particular arts lack of something is often done either far too early, or with too little information.

Karate doesn't have joint locks or throws.

Jujutsu doesn't know how to punch or kick.

Taijiquan is just slow motion forms without any real fighting skill.

Wing Chun just stands still.

Arnis has no powerful kicks or punches.

Kenpo never hits you solidly, they just slap you to death.

All of these are assumptions that could be made readily from a knowledge of the above mentioned styles that is sorely lacking in depth (as all of the above statement are, at least in great part, false).

Finally, if I study two arts, both of which I state to be deficient in some particulars, then I create my own style, from whence does my "new and improved" style stem?  If I never learned anything of sufficient worth, how then do I create something out of the blue that is somehow better than the sum of its parts?

Can't be done.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Akja -
> 
> Two things -
> 
> #1:  If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context.  You failed to do so in my reply, and the excerpt you quoted was linked intimately to the sentence that followed it.
> 
> #2:  If a person studies something only partially, and decides after said partial study that they belive the field of study to be lacking in certain particulars, how do they know that said particulars do not simply exist within the portion they have yet to study?
> 
> Brucie only studied part of what Wing Chun had to offer.  His education in it was lacking.  If it was a question of mobility, then perhaps rather than discounting Wing Chun's effectiveness in that area he could have delved further into it to discover in what ways Wing Chun does away with the perception of weakness in that area.
> 
> Or he could just make up his own thing instead.
> 
> Much easier to go the second route for most people, especially those who are bent on defrauding the public in order to pay the bills and feed their families.  Noble motivations, surely, but the deed remains criminally negligent.
> 
> Did Brucie's experiment work?  Dunno.  I've never fought a JKD person.  My teacher was a JKD chapter leader at one point, and his opinion is that JKD blows goats.  Dunno.  I've never trained in JKD.  What I do know, however, is that in only a few well publicized and documented instances, making a call regarding a particular arts lack of something is often done either far too early, or with too little information.
> 
> Karate doesn't have joint locks or throws.
> 
> Jujutsu doesn't know how to punch or kick.
> 
> Taijiquan is just slow motion forms without any real fighting skill.
> 
> Wing Chun just stands still.
> 
> Arnis has no powerful kicks or punches.
> 
> Kenpo never hits you solidly, they just slap you to death.
> 
> All of these are assumptions that could be made readily from a knowledge of the above mentioned styles that is sorely lacking in depth (as all of the above statement are, at least in great part, false).
> 
> Finally, if I study two arts, both of which I state to be deficient in some particulars, then I create my own style, from whence does my "new and improved" style stem?  If I never learned anything of sufficient worth, how then do I create something out of the blue that is somehow better than the sum of its parts?
> 
> Can't be done.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



I left off the "or" part of the sentence because thats how I readit as being "either or". 

Second no 2 JKD's are the same. So your Sifu's experience can't reflect all.

Ca Yili be judged that easily?


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## fringe_dweller

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Akja -
> 
> Finally, if I study two arts, both of which I state to be deficient in some particulars, then I create my own style, from whence does my "new and improved" style stem?  If I never learned anything of sufficient worth, how then do I create something out of the blue that is somehow better than the sum of its parts?
> 
> Can't be done.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



That is a great question..... 

A question for you Yiliquan, how long do you think you need to study/train in a system before you can come to a point where you realise that what you are looking for is not going to be found within the system you are learning?

Respectfully,


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## A.R.K.

Fringe,

I would venture a minimum age of 22 and at least 3 years in a discipline would qualify an individual to have enough information to begin a new system.  

'Claims on the internet'?  Well how would one actually substantiate a claim to everyone's satisfaction.  If the requirement is to belong to a certain organization...many would fail I think.  Is it having a certain name on a certificate?  I don't think anyone would say this.  How about a certain lineage?  No, I don't think that would say anything at all.  The true test is skill, experience and perhaps teaching ability.  

If individuals with Dan's in other systems seek you out to be trained by you, that is another validation point.  Paper???  Doesn't mean a thing if it can't be backed up with action, at least at some point in the individuals life.

I think far to many people worry about what the other person has or claims and use the excuse of it 'damaging' the arts.  A BB doesn't mean any more or less than what it means to you.  

A low kyu belt might very well hand a sound beating to a high Dan in another style based on practical knowledge, experience in the real world and what is taught in either system.  I put far more stock in real world experience than I do things such as kata known, years in service/grade, tournaments participated in/won, degrees of Dan 'earned'.  The bottom line is what is done in defense of yourself or another.  Not paper.

Yes far to much time and energy is spent in trying to 'keep the arts pure'.  That is simply a catch phrase.  Everything is subjective and relative.  This cannot be denied.

Robert.....what is your Dan and in what style?  Now can you 'prove' it to us here on martial talk?

:asian:


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## fringe_dweller

Wow.... three years?
I've been studying hapkido for three years now and I'm only half way through the colour belts. I would in no way consider myself ready to start my own style. 

I guess when it comes down to it, someone starting their own style doesn't really worry me too much unless they claim that their style has roots in x, y and z. That's when deception kicks in.

Respectfully,


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## Aegis

To me, the idea of making up a new system after 3 years training is ridiculous! There is no way anyone is going to be experienced enough to teach their own system fully after three years, let alone make a new, better one. To my mind, three years should be about the point where you can take a full lesson for low grades under the supervision of your instructor. After 4 or 5 years, you might be trusted to run your own club, but would still need to be learning at another club on a regular basis. 

I would certainly need a very good reason to even consider training under someone who has created their own system, especially after only a few years training.


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## MartialArtist

5th dan in 9 arts?

I've been training in TKD for decades, and it took over a decade to even get to 1st dan.

5th dan, even in McDojos/McDojangs, takes at least ten years.  In McDojangs, I see that there's a test every month or so, and some black belt ranks have a point system where you have to get 5 to get a new dan.  Even so, it takes a substantial amount of time.

Oh, BTW, I have eight black belts from eight different systems...  Technically, I can get a white belt, dye it black, and I can say that I have a "black belt".

Minimum age of 22 and 3 years of experience to formulate a new system?  Are you crazy?  Almost all the traditional combat styles have hundreds if not thousands of years of refinement, and since human anatomy and physiology has remained the same, there are general principles and techniques found in every system.  I don't think 3 years counts.  Hell, a three year practitioner has nowhere near the experience or the skill level or the knowledge to develop his own system.  No doubt that it will be a half-*** system which will try to "be different and unique" which basically means it will get you in trouble.  That kind of ******** will get you killed.  No question about it.  I don't care how "clever" the "system" may be, if the founder of the system can't even hold his own against his own students, then I won't take it.  And when you start a new system, new students as well as experienced students will look for your teachings.  The experienced ones will find out sooner or later, and same with the beginners.

And Mya Ryu, you want RyuShiKan to prove his credibility?  Why won't you check his sources?


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *To me, the idea of making up a new system after 3 years training is ridiculous! There is no way anyone is going to be experienced enough to teach their own system fully after three years, let alone make a new, better one. To my mind, three years should be about the point where you can take a full lesson for low grades under the supervision of your instructor. After 4 or 5 years, you might be trusted to run your own club, but would still need to be learning at another club on a regular basis.
> 
> I would certainly need a very good reason to even consider training under someone who has created their own system, especially after only a few years training. *


I agree

To me, 3 years would be the end of the "conditioning" era which is more of getting you in shape, toughening you up, and learning a few of the basics and getting them down so you can get to the meat and the bread and butter.


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## A.R.K.

Well...

Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....

JUDO

Bruce Lee, who to my knowledge never officially held a 'BB' founded JKD before the age of 30 as another example of ability overriding other considerations.

:asian:


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## TLH3rdDan

3 years???? no offense but what are you smoking? and can i have some? ok most arts have a minimum time in grade of 5 years to test for a BB, so 3 years would put you at the intermediate level of say a blue belt or a green belt... how can anyone even begin to think that someone that is that new to the arts can go out and create a new art... its not possible... again how can you think that an art is useless and has nothing to offer if you are only begining? if that was the case i could go out and study any art i wanted for 3 years stop go buy a black belt and a roll of red tape or maybe even a red striped black belt and proclaim my self the high muckity muck grand puba master of all masters and open a school teaching what ever i thought would work... with only a very very basic understanding of that one art and of course give it a new name in the process... its just not right... i would think in order to create a new art you should at least have studied the one art you are in till at least 4th or 5th dan then if you have not found what you are looking for try something different dont try making up a new one yet... cause as it has been stated... there is nothing new when it comes to martial arts... there are only so many ways to punch and kick and only so many ways to combine them effectively and news flash with all the arts that are out there im sure they have all been tried... just my 2 cents


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by fringe_dweller _
> *A question for you Yiliquan, how long do you think you need to study/train in a system before you can come to a point where you realise that what you are looking for is not going to be found within the system you are learning?*



How long until you know enough to start your own style/system?

Maybe only a lifetime or two...  

Seriously?  It really depends...  I started training in Yiliquan in 1986.  I got the equivalent to my 1st degree black belt in 1998.  That was 12 years.  I got the equivalent to my 2nd degree black belt in 2000.  So 14 years just to get nidan grade...  I still have so much to learn before I am competent enough to really feel I have a handle on all there is to learn.  I'm not talking about knowing everything, being able to do everything, hell, I'm not even talking about having _seen_ everything!

So for me, if I wanted to do the "Matt Stone-ryu" of Yiliquan, I'd have to put in at least another 20 years before I felt I knew the material I have been exposed to well enough to decide yea or nay on any part of it...

So for me, since I am currently 34, add 20 more years, and when I am in my mid-50s I might feel I am nearly to the point of understanding what I am doing well enough to say what I think should stay or go.

22 years old with 3 years of training?  Please!   I don't trust soldiers that are 22 with 4 years of military service behind them to know what they are doing well enough to leave them unsupervised, much less to think that someone who has spent 3 years under the tutelage of Sensei Billy Ray at the local Super Discount Karate Dojo just inside the Wal-Mart Super Store entrance would know enough to start their own art!  Not trying to be nasty, but that is flatly absurd!!!

Once upon a time, folks spent the bulk of their entire day training, day after day, under the direct supervision of their teacher.  After a few years, they were well trained and knew quite a bit about their particular style.  That simply isn't the fact with the modern world.  The modern reality is that work, family and other activities curtial quite a bit of our training.  I work from 0600 - 1700 everyday (including PT in the morning), and with an hour for lunch, a few hours with the kids doing homework, maybe some time for me and the wife, dinner, I am still going to bed around 2400 or 0100.  Training gets squeezed in where it'll fit.

So for someone to say that after only a meager 3 years of training, on the average of a few hours a night 3 or 4 times a week (and let's be honest, folks, for most people that is a _lot_ of training - perhaps not for those of us who dream about this crap in our sleep, or who do Naihanchi Shodan while standing at the copy machine, but for the Regular Joe that is a pretty gruelling schedule for "ka-rotty" class), they are ready to start their own style...?

I doubt it.

Average Joe +Average Ka-rotty School X Average Training Time = at least 15 years of training or more before they should even think about teaching, much less "creating" a "new" style.  And even then I don't think they are really ready...

But, like anal sphincters, this opinion is mine and imperfect to boot.  My teacher started his own style, sure.  But not until after he had already spent decades training.  And as a gruding nod to MRJ, in the years I have been doing Yiliquan I have seen it go from version 1.1 to 1.5 to 2.0 and we are still evolving and growing.  So sure, he created it and unveiled it in 1982, but it has been developing since then...  It is 21 years old now, and is beginning to solidify.  Time has tested it, and so far it has survived.  I have seen too many homegrown styles sprout and die on the vine in just the time I have been a Senior, much less over the years I have been training total.

Just my opinions, though...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K.

For those that might have missed it the first time  



> Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....




...JUDO. 

:asian:


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## TLH3rdDan

ok enlighten us and tell us how many hours a day he trained and how many days a week he trained and would a few be taken a 2 years or 3 years... and no offense to the wonderful judo community but isnt judo kinda incomplete when compared to the parent art of jujitsu? plus wasnt kanos whole goal of creating judo to make it into a sport?


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## Aegis

Jigoro Kano trained in jujutsu from a very young age, and had been training for almost his entire life before he founded Judo. In addition, the man was a visionary, something that only a handful of people in each generation can honestly claim to be.

Equating Jigoro Kano to a 22 year old with 3 years of "twice a week if lucky" studying is an insult to anyone who has ever studied Judo.


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## Aegis

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> *ok enlighten us and tell us how many hours a day he trained and how many days a week he trained and would a few be taken a 2 years or 3 years... and no offense to the wonderful judo community but isnt judo kinda incomplete when compared to the parent art of jujitsu? plus wasnt kanos whole goal of creating judo to make it into a sport? *



Judo is complete. The modern sporting version of Judo isn't. Unfortunately people have lost track of the non-sporting side, so all people see is the sport judo. I'm hoping that when I finally get my dan in judo it will be in the original form, which the BJA is apparently considering re-adding to the syllabus as an alternative route through the grades. (note that this is merely rumour at this time)


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## TLH3rdDan

interesting posts aegis... thanks for clearing that up about kanos training... and i know this probably needs to be its own thread  but what are the major differences between jujitsu and kanos original form of judo?


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## A.R.K.

Aegis,

Dr. Kano didn't begin training till he was 17 years of age.  At 22 he developed Judo.  My bad as I list 3, it was actually 5 years of training.  



> Equating Jigoro Kano to a 22 year old with 3 years of "twice a week if lucky" studying is an insult to anyone who has ever studied Judo.



I never mentioned the number of days per week he trained, that was another poster.  And your missing the point entirely, there is no 'requirement' for founding something of value other than desire and focus.  One does not *have *  to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value.  One must never be afraid to try something new if that is the desire regardless of others opinions to the contrary.

That is the point.  As a result, look at the disciplines we now have to engage in.  

:asian:


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## Matt Stone

The entire point, though, is this - 

a) Kano was a man unique among the MA community.  There have been relatively few arts of all the hundreds and likely thousands that have been "created" that have actually survived.  Most were merely variations on a theme, an entirely different premise from creating an entirely new style.

b) Taking a parent art you have studied for a few years and paring it down, removing the dangerous content and leaving only a relatively small number of techniques remaining would be far easier than attempting to create a comprehensive fighting style out of nearly nothing at all.

c) The logic of a person studying a few styles, all of which he claims are lacking in particulars , how then is that person enabled to fill in the gaps with the techniques and methods that are missing from his education?  If the person is mixing TKD kicks, Wing Chun punches and Judo throws, is the person _really_ creating a new _style_, or is that just that person's method of fighting?  

I have studied Yiliquan and Modern Arnis.  I really liked the trapping I learned in Arnis, and I make use of it whenever I can.  However, I don't have a new "style" of fighting just because I have an additional skill that isn't really included in Yiliquan in that particular fashion (though we do have Rolling Hands, which is somewhat similar in effect if not execution).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *One does not have   to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value.*



I don't think it is necessarily establishing an infallible benchmark at which point all persons applying for "new style founder" status will be eligible.  But I do think it is a question of a generic understanding that it takes a number of years to learn the techniques, a number of years to integrate the techniques into a usable form, then a number of years to fully understand their application and variations, then a number of years to put them together into a cohesive mass...  This takes time and can't be rushed.

Having something to contribute is something else entirely.  Everyone has something to contribute of lesser or greater degree based on their perception and experience.  But that doesn't mean Joe Schmucklenuts from Billy Ray's Discount Ka-rotty Warehouse can create his own style from his understanding of Raccoon Kata #4 and Trailer Park Waza 1- 8...


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## A.R.K.

If something _has_  been done before...it _can_  be done again.

The point is to make the effort.  To not make the effort is to never know the results.  My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time.  Then again, perhaps it will.  At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night.  It has allowed others to do the same.  To me that is the most important factor.  

:asian:


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## yilisifu

Age 22 and 3 yrs. training?  That's a good 10 kliks below preposterous.

A given system cannot truly be learned (completely) in less than 15 years anyway.

No, Bruce Lee did not study the full art of Wing Chun.  On the other hand, he didn't claim to teach the whole art, either.  He didn't call what he did "Wing Chun."  If he had, he would have had a number of Wing Chun seniors on his doorstep.

He decided to do his own thing and he fessed up to that.  And that's fine.  He was honest enough to admit that it was something he created himself.


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Claims on the Internet.
> 
> Lately there has been much dispute over dubious claims made on the Internet and people unwilling to corroborate their claims. Mind you this is not aimed at anyone specific since I have come across several such cases over the last 2 or 3 years.
> 
> There are certain folks that think we should overlook dubious claims if the person or persons have the proper ability or skill level in whatever it is they do.
> 
> Is it me or does this type of thinking sound a bit off not to mention dishonest.
> 
> By their rational I could declare to have gotten a PhD. from Harvard and it wouldnt matter if I really ever went there as long as I knew my subject matter well enough, and anyone that dare doubt my claim and ask me for my credentials is nothing more than an unhappy  trouble maker.
> 
> Companies will often ask to see a persons diploma, grade point averages and letters of reference..why do you think that is?
> Maybe they are just part of this big group of unhappy troublemakers that have nothing better to do.
> In the martial arts world there are people that have faked or claimed certain credentials when in fact they had no connection to that particular school or teacher. Either way, be academics or MAs it is still committing a type of fraud. If we turn a blind eye to such things are we not also guilty of perpetuating that same lie. Kind of like if you are not part of the solution youre part of the problem
> 
> People have commented that if you really doubt their skill why dont you go and check them out.
> This has become the all too common War Cry for people that are on the defensive from making or being associated with folks that make just such dubious claims. They know it will never happen since most people wont travel to the next state to do something like let alone visit someone they dont care for, so they can feel safe in saying such things from the comfort of their chair.
> 
> I think, and this is my very limited psychological opinion, that people that claim multiple high (bogus) dan grades are similar to those women that buy lots of jewelry.
> Some MA people need all those high dan grades to look, sound and feel more legit and those women that buy too much jewelery do so to make themselves feel more beautiful, and worthy of attention.
> 
> Having said that, many MA people that claim all those lofty ranks also make statements like I have been in xxxx number of real life situations so I know what I am talking about because I have proved it in real life.
> Statements like these also are difficult if not impossible to corroborate.
> 
> I hold MA people to a higher level of integrity than non-MA people since MA people are supposed to have the skill and hopefully the responsibility to know where and when to use their art which has the potential to be deadly. Part of the responsibility of knowing a martial art is being a person of good moral characterlying and making fraudulent claims is not what I would call sound moral character. *




There are alot of claims made in cyber space that can and never will be backed up!
If you dont mind Ill use you for example: You say you are whatever rank in whatever style some people here have met you and agree with your claims, some people have never met you and dont.  My point is you cant prove it to them, you could tell those who dont believe you to check out this web site or call this shcool or orginization but for all they know they could be talking to one of your buddies or maybe even you. And even computer illiterate me can start my own web site, so who's to say what's right or wrong or who's fake and who's real.


----------



## A.R.K.

Yilisifu,



> Age 22 and 3 yrs. training? That's a good 10 kliks below preposterous.



I suppose Judo practitioners who are satisfied with their discipline might disagree with you.  Seems many people are quite satisfied with Kano's preposterous contribution.

:asian:


----------



## chufeng

That was five years, not three years...AND it may very well be that he wasn't considered a student until he reached a certain age...prior to that he was "less than a student...???"

I've read accounts where he started training at the age of seven...
I've read accounts where he started at teh age of eighteen...

Which is correct???

At any rate...five hours a day five or six days a week is equivalent to HOW many years of training as it is done in most dojos today?
Maybe 15 to 20 years of training as most folks do it nowadays...

I think it is important to differentiate the two...

Do some folks drive harder today than their peers? Of course, but they are few and far between.
Would that person qualify to start a new system? Maybe...
It depends on whether or not he really understood the guts of a system...

So, in answer to your question, yes and no, it depends...

But I would lean toward NO...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *There are alot of claims made in cyber space that can and never will be backed up!
> If you dont mind Ill use you for example: You say you are whatever rank in whatever style some people here have met you and agree with your claims, some people have never met you and dont.  My point is you cant prove it to them, you could tell those who dont believe you to check out this web site or call this shcool or orginization but for all they know they could be talking to one of your buddies or maybe even you. And even computer illiterate me can start my own web site, so who's to say what's right or wrong or who's fake and who's real. *



Y'know, DAC, over the past day or so, RSK and MRJ have managed to let the whole issue die...  Why can't you?

Your argument is flawed.

If Person A claims X, then he should be able to prove it somehow.  If Person A possesses some form of documentation, that should in most cases suffice.  There must be, at some point, trust placed in their documentation.

If Person A is unable to show some form of documentation, then other forms of proof could be offered.  Testimony of those with first hand knowledge supporting Person A's claims is one method, however it is usually not acceptable since those people are not guaranteed to be objective.

If I ask you to prove your certification as an LEO, what can you show me?  A badge?  I can buy one at the local surplus store.  A certificate of training from your state run training facility?  That would be better, since I could contact the city or state offices to verify its validity.  But if you show me a document that cannot be proven to be valid, what then?  Given that you claim to be something that should be verifiable through authorized and approved offices, your claim is not simply one of "well, the fact that I can cuff you with the best of them should be enough" simply isn't...

Now please, stop bringing it back up...  We have all stated our cases, but you have brought this back up in TWO threads.  Let it die already...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context. *



In fact, we discourage this as it takes up excess server space. Some day old threads will have to be moved offline--we don't want to hasten that time. Please, quote accurately and with context but do trim your quotes. The original article is always there for comparison.

If anyone feels it necessary in a given case to fully quote an article, please do so--but as a rule, please try to trim quotes.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## chufeng

DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...

Who will grab the bad boy?

???

a fable told by chufeng...


----------



## Matt Stone

*Arnisador* - 

I guess what I should have said was more along the lines of "if you are going to quote me, don't cut and paste selected portions of the text to suit your own commentary; quote me in context."

I don't quote entire posts unless I am addressing the entire post.  If I can help it, I just quote the portion I am specifically replying to.

Sorry for the confusion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: [/B]



Your excused.


----------



## Marginal

I wonder how many styles that are being invented right now are actually worth anything? I've talked to multiple teens that are all trying to create their own arts, and not one of them has a clue as to why an art arose, or what the thinking was behind it all. 

Give those types three years, and a useless mush'll result.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Well...
> 
> Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....
> 
> JUDO
> 
> Bruce Lee, who to my knowledge never officially held a 'BB' founded JKD before the age of 30 as another example of ability overriding other considerations.
> 
> :asian: *


I'm not the most knowledgeable on the topic of Kano.

However, Bruce lee didn't really found anything.  His JKD was merely a combination of ideas, and he really wasn't the first person to come up with the idea either.  He's just credited for its popularity, not for founding the principles.  Bruce Lee's intention was that JKD wasn't an art, but rather something based on the individual.  JKD is no art, and all arts as he quotes.  Hell, almost every single person changes something to fit themselves better, regardless of art.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *If something has  been done before...it can  be done again.
> 
> The point is to make the effort.  To not make the effort is to never know the results.  My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time.  Then again, perhaps it will.  At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night.  It has allowed others to do the same.  To me that is the most important factor.
> 
> :asian: *


If you try and look at it that way, then every person has their unique "style".  What do I call my style?  I can think of a clever name and market it also.


----------



## Aegis

From an easily accessible source on Judo (Judo Information Site):



> Dr. Jigoro Kano, founder of modern Judo, was born in the town of Mikage in the Hyogo Prefecture, on October 28, 1860. Shihan Kano never viewed the martial arts as a means to display physical prowess or superiority. As a pacifist, he studied them to find a way to live in peace with other human beings. *In his youth Kano studied Jujutsu under a number of different masters.* Sensei Teinosuke Yagi was his first teacher, but at the age of 18 he entered the dojo of Tenshin-Shinyo Sensei Hachinosuke Fukuda. Upon graduation from Tokyo University, he studied the Kito tradition under Sensei Iikubo. By his mid-twenties, Shihan Kano had been initiated into the secret teachings of both ryus.



(emphasis mine)

Doesn't sound like he started at 17 now, does it?

See, at the age of 18 he changed masters, which is probably what has people like you confused. If you are concerned about how quickly he got his "inner secret" training within this art, then remember that he had been training for some years in a different style of jujutsu before coming to this master, so wouldn't have had to go as slowly as normal novices.

Remember that what defined Judo wasn't a set of new moves, or an unbeatable new style, it was instead a principle (maximising efficiency). If I recall correctly, this basically meant mastering a few of the old techniques first, then expanding on them, rather than Jujutsu, where you would learn bits of everything and gradually get good at all of them. 

Essentially there wasn't much difference initially between Judo and some styles of jujutsu. What changed was the ability to practise Judo at full pace on someone else under controlled circumstances (randori). After a while, the more dangerous elements were reduced to kata form only, and eventually forgotten completely.

Not that I can say for sure, but I believe that a lot of styles of Jujutsu today would almost be Judo in its original form, as they follow the same principals and training methods as judo did at its creation.

His other contribution was the introduction of a set of ethics, which still live on in a lot of martial artists, but have been lost on others: good character, honest conduct, etc. 

So, what am I saying? I'm saying that Kano did NOT try to create something new, nor did he do what he did for glory's sake. He revolutionised teaching methods by coming up with safe ways of training while not losing the deadliness of technique. I doubt many people since then can claim to have had such a huge influence on martial arts. 


My general advice on creating a new system is this: if you have nothing new to offer, don't start a new system. Until you have attained a level of mastery in one or more arts, you are not likely to have anything new to offer.


----------



## yilisifu

Yes.  Dr. Kano had studied jujutsu for quite some time before developing judo.

It is well to remember also that in the "old days", a given "style" was usually tested in battle.  If it didn't work, it's creator died.  I'm sure there were many "new styles" created back then that we've never heard of because of this.
   Nowadays, the law tends to get kind of persnickety about duelling and wars aren't fought with sticks and swords...


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> 
> My general advice on creating a new system is this: if you have nothing new to offer, don't start a new system. Until you have attained a level of mastery in one or more arts, you are not likely to have anything new to offer. [/B]



The major differances is that more and more schools are adding some form of ground grappling. Whether it be more defense against a ground grappler, all out ground grappling or a portion of class time "understanding" ground grappling.

People seem to be down on new systems, but the high numbers of martial artists makes new systems some thing that are here to stay. 

See this thread:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=116127#post116127

The way I train is my way, about 65-70% standup and 30-35% ground grappling. Accept it or not, dosen't matter in the least. 

But no one system out there can "say", much less "prove" that they teach "what" I teach or the "method of teaching" that I use.


One last note: Before the first UFC I was exposed to but did not practice MMA. Way back in the '70's Mr. Tarow Hayashi was teaching full contact free form martial arts and was also holding competitions in this format. Mr. Hayashi was at that time my brother-in-laws instrucor. My Sensei's teacher. Mr. Hayashi pioneered free form combat and most kickboxers of that time did not fight nor practice in that way.

http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

I give credit to the UFC for making me think the way I do but when I saw the UFC I already new that Karate and Ju Jitsu could be practiced as one.:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

Yiliquan.

My teacher teaches it one way.

Chufeng teaches it another way.

I teach it still another way.

We all teach the same material, but we all have our own preferences, our own body types, our own methods of presenting information...

So since I teach it differently than my teacher taught me, presenting the same information in different language, different demonstration, with my own emphasis on certain things, does it really make what I am doing a "new system?"

No.

The material remains the same.  The standards of performance remain the same.  That's what makes it a system in the first place.

How it is presented is a product of the personality of the teacher, and personality doesn't change the system, just the direction that that instructor's students may take.

Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Yiliquan.
> 
> My teacher teaches it one way.
> 
> Chufeng teaches it another way.
> 
> I teach it still another way.
> 
> We all teach the same material, but we all have our own preferences, our own body types, our own methods of presenting information...
> 
> So since I teach it differently than my teacher taught me, presenting the same information in different language, different demonstration, with my own emphasis on certain things, does it really make what I am doing a "new system?"
> 
> No.
> 
> The material remains the same.  The standards of performance remain the same.  That's what makes it a system in the first place.
> 
> How it is presented is a product of the personality of the teacher, and personality doesn't change the system, just the direction that that instructor's students may take.
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *




Thats my point the material is no longer the same.


----------



## KennethKu

To make such criteria as age and number of years of training as indication of qualification to create a new style, misses the boat completely.

To illustrate: You can say if someone is 25 years old and has taken x numbers of years of English Writing courses, then the person is *qualified* to write novel.  Of course, the person can write a novel. This is a free country. But the issue is what kind of quality work he or she can produce.  

Anyone, regardless of age and years of training, can create a new style.  But the issue is what kind of martial art products he or she is putting together.  I would venture a bet that it is either reinventing the wheel, repackaging something that already exist, mix and match bits and pieces from already existing arts or even totally unadulterated junk.

I agree with Aegis that, unless you have something new or volutionary, then you are just recycling the same old same old.  And I would bet that the majority of the new styles we see these days, are repacking the same old stuff or remixing bits and pieces from existing arts, and slapping a fancing label on it.  God Bless Free Market!


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *To make such criteria as age and number of years of training as indication of qualification to create a new style, misses the boat completely.
> 
> To illustrate: You can say if someone is 25 years old and has taken x numbers of years of English Writing courses, then the person is qualified to write novel.  Of course, the person can write a novel. This is a free country. But the issue is what kind of quality work he or she can produce.
> 
> Anyone, regardless of age and years of training, can create a new style.  But the issue is what kind of martial art products he or she is putting together.  I would venture a bet that it is either reinventing the wheel, repackaging something that already exist, mix and match bits and pieces from already existing arts or even totally unadulterated junk.
> 
> I agree with Aegis that, unless you have something new or volutionary, then you are just recycling the same old same old.  And I would bet that the majority of the new styles we see these days, are repacking the same old stuff or remixing bits and pieces from existing arts, and slapping a fancing label on it.  God Bless Free Market! *



That was a pretty good post.

You could "ALMOST" classify me as "repackaging" but not "reinventing."

Heres a partial quote off of my homepage of my beliefs which is a pretty good explanation of what I represent:

 "THE KJJ METHOD OF TRAINING which Is a system of training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together, practicing and understanding all of the KJJ curriculum focusing on what is most useful and specializing on what works best for you."

I really do beleive that the only people out there that possibly "come close" to what I do is "MAYBE" Mr. Hayashis group in El Paso, Texas(but they are much more traditional).
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

And the many mixed martial artists along with "SOME" JKD fighters out there.

For the most part, my method is all mine. I teach on an individualized private class format that allows me to groom each student to meet my expectations of what they shold be as an artist and in time they take over this "grooming process" and become the martial artiast that is in them.

One last thing. I think it is to negative to think that things can't be changed. I agree partially with what you see and beleive. But we must evolve and part of that evolution is change.:asian:


----------



## KennethKu

Yes, evolution is a messy business. Nothing is cut and dry nor pre-ordained. Out of 100 new styles, may be  only a few that truly has merit and can withstand the test of time and challenge.


----------



## A.R.K.

This thread is shaping up into quite an interesting discussion.  Bravo to all involved.

Chufeng,

A question for you.  Earlier on page 2-3 you were discussing proof/evidence in terms of credibility for martial experience or LEO status.  Or anything really.  You had some good points that I would like to go further into.

John Smith has X degree Dan in Y style.  Someone here asks for proof.  How does he provide that?

Scan and post his certificate?  No, any of us can go to Kinco's and have one made up for a few bucks.  If it is authentic...is the signature?  And if the signature is authentic...does anyone know him?  There are millions of martial artists out there, who can know them all?  And if the instructor isn't in the lime-light but just an old fashioned, keeps to himself, but highly qualified instructor...does that negate his signature?  Does and instructor have to be 'known' to be credible?  How many don't want or care for worldly recognition?

Tell you he belongs to Z organization?  What does that really accomplish?  There are a ton of them out there and quite a few will sell you the rank you want without investigation.  The ones that do put you under the microscope...who's to say they do other than themselves or those closely associated with them?  Without picking on the Kukkiwon, an merely an example, many would say they are the top of the food chain in terms of credability for many Korean arts.  Others would come and say they know those who have bought rank therein.  Who's right?  

Does Mr. Smith HAVE to belong to organization Z instead of A,B or C?  And why?  If a membership fee or promotional fee is asked for...isn't that buying rank regardless of the organization?  The charge or allegation could be made against it.

Perhaps an organization that doesn't charge but still puts you under the microscope?  

How about someone vouching for Mr. Smith that knows his background, training and teaching ability?  But couldn't someone simply say there just buddies covering for each other?  How about a website?  But then anyone can create a website saying anything.  What about a verification phone number?  But then how would we know who was really on the other end?  

You are very correct and on the money with your apprasial regarding verification of LEO credentials.  That would be a sure way.  But in regards to the martial arts.....?   An entity that is not governed by any universally recognized and independent organization that is not dollar motivated.  We are back to the subjective and relative terms.  

You mentioned that at some point trust needs to come into play.  I believe you are correct.  Trust in one another and let time tell the complete story.  Only that or first hand personal knoweldge will truly suffice in a scenerio such as this.  

What is rank?  Simply put, it is someone [who presumably has trained longer than you with superior ability] who has recognized you as achieving a millstone in your training.  Someone who is willing to even perhaps put their name on the line to publically state this is the case.  Perhaps even an organization, any organization of reputable integrity that allows you to become a member or invites you into the fellowship.  

But as illustrated above, anyone can come along an use terms such as dubious, unsubstantiated, alleged etc to shed an unfavorable light on anyone's credentials.  Perhaps justifiably...perhaps not.  To me the bottom line would be if Mr. Smith indeed has knowledge and skill and the ability to pass it on to others who in turn can use it so protect themselves.  If Mr. Smith has real world experience to pass on, I consider that a tremendous plus.

My humble opinion.

 :asian:


----------



## KennethKu

It isn't a question of whether Mr Smith has to belong to organization Z instead of A, B or C.  It is where the RECOGNIZED authoritative organization is organization Z, while organizations A, B, C, all bastard organizations that no one recognizes nor gives a hoot about. Certificates from organizations A, B, C are toilet paper.

Let me use the Kukkiwon example. If I claimed to have a certificate from a Kukkiwon that located in South Africa, that would make the biggest butt of joke.  There is only one legitimate Kukkiwon and it is NOT the bastard fake in South Africa.

In Mr Smith's case, if he was a fraud in Kukkiwon, then all you need to do is to ask around. Someone from Kukkiwon would KNOW.  It would be _very convenient_ for Mr. Smith to pass himself off as some high dan master in some freaking obscure art and hope that no one really knows the truth about it.  That is why it eventually boils down to the good ol fashion of McDojo busting.


----------



## chufeng

> Chufeng,
> 
> A question for you. Earlier on page 2-3 you were discussing proof/evidence in terms of credibility for martial experience or LEO status.



Wasn't me...my first post was regarding the difference between training in the old days in Japan and how people train today...

My second post was to DAC about beating a dead horse...

This is my third post in this thread...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## A.R.K.

Ken,

I understand your point.  But as I noted above, many would say the Kukkiwon is not the authority, or has lost it's authority an/or credibility due to many 'situations'.  One could argue that is why several high rankers broke off and began world organizations of their own.  We've all heard the stories of get on the plane as a blue belt and get off as a 6th Dan.  We've heard stories of ethnic discrimination.  I'm merely pointing out that to one Korean arts practitioner the Kukkiwon might be the world...to another a money grubbing warehouse.  

I would like to say that since I'm not into any Korean arts in terms of rank, I have nothing for or against the Kukkiwon.  They just happened to be the first one to come to mind for illustration purposes.  If a TKD practitioner came to me with Kukkiwon backing great...if he didn't....great.  I know far to many involved in the Korean arts/Kukkiwon and know the 'budo gone bad' stories.  If the TKD practitioner/instructor has the ability then that is enough for me.  

So to some organization Y is the one, the only, the best of the best...to others maybe not.  It would seem this in and of itself has caused quite a division amoungst us as practitioners of the 
'arts'.

My humble opinion.
:asian:


----------



## A.R.K.

Chufeng,

You are correct, my apologies.  It was Yiliquan 1 on page 3 that caught my eye.  All you Yili guys look the same   Just kidding  

However, your comment would be of interest as well if your so inclined.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Yes, evolution is a messy business. Nothing is cut and dry nor pre-ordained. Out of 100 new styles, may be  only a few that truly has merit and can withstand the test of time and challenge. *



Of those that withstand the test of time. 

How many will withstand the challenge?:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *You could "ALMOST" classify me as "repackaging" but not "reinventing."*



But does "repackaging" really amount to creating a new system?  If I put a Big Mac in a paper box instead of a styrofoam one, is the burger really any different?



> *"THE KJJ METHOD OF TRAINING which Is a system of training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together, practicing and understanding all of the KJJ curriculum focusing on what is most useful and specializing on what works best for you."*



So you really _are_ are traditionalist!  Everything you wrote in that description is true of living traditional martial arts (as opposed to the dead ones that have stagnated and failed to pass on anything other than mimicked movements).  Nothing really new there...



> *For the most part, my method is all mine. I teach on an individualized private class format that allows me to groom each student to meet my expectations of what they shold be as an artist and in time they take over this "grooming process" and become the martial artiast that is in them.*



So if you are "grooming" them according to your expectations, they really aren't any better off than they would be if they went to another school...  They should be presented information, techniques, theories and strategies, all of which they should be required to learn, but portions of which they will choose to make "their own" through practice.  In this way, "their own" techniques will be put into practice and they will develop their own abilities out of them.  By making them conform to your perceptions of what is best is really forcing them to conform to your beliefs and abilities, not necessarily theirs.

When I learned Yiliquan from Sifu Starr, he really didn't emphasize one part over any other.  He presented the entire package to us for us to digest and internalize.  I prefer to hammer away at someone, punishing them before turning out the lights.  That's my preference, and it goes along with my physical stature.  One of our other instructors prefers throws and joint locks, nearly to the exclusion of other techniques.  That fits his body type and mentality.  But we all teach exactly the same material.  We may have our own unique way of approaching the communication of it, but we leave nothing out.  That way, the student can decide what their likes and dislikes are, and where their natural abilities lie...



> *One last thing. I think it is to negative to think that things can't be changed. I agree partially with what you see and beleive. But we must evolve and part of that evolution is change.:asian: *



Just because we _can_ change a thing doesn't necessarily mean we _should_.  Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *DAC,
> 
> See the horse?
> 
> Run horse, run.
> 
> See the horse fall?
> 
> Get up horse, get up!
> 
> See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.
> 
> See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?
> 
> Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!
> 
> But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...
> 
> Who will grab the bad boy?
> 
> ???
> 
> a fable told by chufeng...
> *





> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *
> Wasn't me...my first post was regarding the difference between training in the old days in Japan and how people train today...
> 
> My second post was to DAC about beating a dead horse...
> 
> This is my third post in this thread...
> 
> 
> chufeng
> *



* Personal Post - Not as a Moderator *

chufeng,

Thank you for bringing to everyones' attention that this is a dead horse and that you all are beating it. I just do not understand why every thread you guys get involved in has to break down into this type of discussion or arguement. If I was not required to read this as a moderator, I would ignore you all. I think you mioght be lossing the respect of others here, if you are trying my patience as well. I understand your point of tradition and valid testing, yet, I see no way to make you and others happy.

I apologize for if I upset you for my post, but I think you are all being childish. Just my point of view.

And just so that you know, I expect to get a warning, etc, for talking to you like this. I personally do not think it is respectable for this continued break down.

My Apologies 
 :asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

I thought everyone involved in the bickering had been doing a good job of putting it down and walking away...  Other folks have been bringing it back up, and Chufeng and I have both commented to them to let it die...  But you say _we_ are the ones bringing it back up? 

As for being childish, again, that is more on the part of the folks that keep trying to bring this thing back to life...


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I thought everyone involved in the bickering had been doing a good job of putting it down and walking away...  Other folks have been bringing it back up, and Chufeng and I have both commented to them to let it die...  But you say we are the ones bringing it back up?
> 
> As for being childish, again, that is more on the part of the folks that keep trying to bring this thing back to life... *




Sir,

I address chufeng for he brought up the dead horse.

I was personally addressing everyone involved on both sides.

I apologize for not making that clear.

I am not taking sides. I am just stating my opinion, as it seems everyone else is doing.

If it is Dead, then Great ignore me and my post(s). Just to me it is a boring subject, that has been discussed, and it seems that it keeps going and going and going, and neither side will let it go with out getting in the last word or the last shot.

Personally, I think you are all acting very poorly. Step back and just breath and then take a second look everyone.


So, No I am not ganging up on you. I am not using my Authority, I am giving an opinion. If you feel like that then I am sorry, I did not mean to come across that way, yet if you do feel guilty, then maybe you and everyone should take that step back like I said.

If you wish, report this thread and list this as an issue if you feel like I am coming down hard on you and your friends and or your opponents.

Have a nice day


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *From an easily accessible source on Judo (Judo Information Site):
> 
> 
> 
> (emphasis mine)
> 
> Doesn't sound like he started at 17 now, does it?
> 
> See, at the age of 18 he changed masters, which is probably what has people like you confused. If you are concerned about how quickly he got his "inner secret" training within this art, then remember that he had been training for some years in a different style of jujutsu before coming to this master, so wouldn't have had to go as slowly as normal novices.
> 
> Remember that what defined Judo wasn't a set of new moves, or an unbeatable new style, it was instead a principle (maximising efficiency). If I recall correctly, this basically meant mastering a few of the old techniques first, then expanding on them, rather than Jujutsu, where you would learn bits of everything and gradually get good at all of them.
> 
> Essentially there wasn't much difference initially between Judo and some styles of jujutsu. What changed was the ability to practise Judo at full pace on someone else under controlled circumstances (randori). After a while, the more dangerous elements were reduced to kata form only, and eventually forgotten completely.
> 
> Not that I can say for sure, but I believe that a lot of styles of Jujutsu today would almost be Judo in its original form, as they follow the same principals and training methods as judo did at its creation.
> 
> His other contribution was the introduction of a set of ethics, which still live on in a lot of martial artists, but have been lost on others: good character, honest conduct, etc.
> 
> So, what am I saying? I'm saying that Kano did NOT try to create something new, nor did he do what he did for glory's sake. He revolutionised teaching methods by coming up with safe ways of training while not losing the deadliness of technique. I doubt many people since then can claim to have had such a huge influence on martial arts.
> 
> 
> My general advice on creating a new system is this: if you have nothing new to offer, don't start a new system. Until you have attained a level of mastery in one or more arts, you are not likely to have anything new to offer. *


Very informative posts.

And you bring up a good point...  It's not like Kano formulated a brand-new revolutionary art, but rather took jujitsu into a different light.


----------



## chufeng

Rich,

Thank you so much for stirring the pot, once again...
With moderators like you, things should calm down in a hurry 

My post was directed to ONE individual who, like you, wanted to stir the pot...

So, Rich, if you can't follow the thread and its intent, I'll give you the bottom line:

I am through commenting about A.R.K.'s (his new name) credentials...the frickin' horse is dead...Now drop YOUR stick...if you weren't beating the horse, you might actually see what's going on here.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Ken,
> 
> I understand your point.  But as I noted above, many would say the Kukkiwon is not the authority, or has lost it's authority an/or credibility due to many 'situations'.  One could argue that is why several high rankers broke off and began world organizations of their own.  We've all heard the stories of get on the plane as a blue belt and get off as a 6th Dan.  We've heard stories of ethnic discrimination.  I'm merely pointing out that to one Korean arts practitioner the Kukkiwon might be the world...to another a money grubbing warehouse.
> 
> I would like to say that since I'm not into any Korean arts in terms of rank, I have nothing for or against the Kukkiwon.  They just happened to be the first one to come to mind for illustration purposes.  If a TKD practitioner came to me with Kukkiwon backing great...if he didn't....great.  I know far to many involved in the Korean arts/Kukkiwon and know the 'budo gone bad' stories.  If the TKD practitioner/instructor has the ability then that is enough for me.
> 
> So to some organization Y is the one, the only, the best of the best...to others maybe not.  It would seem this in and of itself has caused quite a division amoungst us as practitioners of the
> 'arts'.
> 
> My humble opinion.
> :asian: *


Too bad, the authority is authority.  You might have opinions on authority, but that's about it, it doesn't change the fact that they are still in charge.  The founders and lineage, the history, etc. all backs them up.  It's like Colts.  They are the authority in the 1911 market.  It doesn't matter on how much market share they have, or whether this brand of 1911 is better.  Colts withstood the test of time, being one of the oldest firearm companies in the US, their pistols and rifles have gone through every major war in the 20th and 21st century the US has been involved in, etc.  They were the original, and the rest are clones and imitations, no matter how good they become.

I have an il-dan certificate from Kukkiwon, but my drill instructors in the past barely went through the forms like some McDojangs today stress.  They had their own little system within the system, but the final authority was still Kukkiwon.  Most original organizations do give some leniency on how you teach, etc., but if I were to have a black belt that was not from Kukkiwon, and not in their database, then it would be nothing.  One of my old instructor's father was on the council.  I'm not certain on its politics, but he was on the original council that is credited for making TKD so popular (which is both a good and a very bad thing).

For LEO organizations, you can belong into A, B, and C.  But if it isn't the authorized A, then you are merely running either a private investigation organization or are just being vigilantes.


----------



## MartialArtist

Dead horse?  Am I missing something?  Is this the incident with ZDW aka MRJ aka ARK?  I really haven't been participating in those threads so I'm not sure.


----------



## Matt Stone

Yep.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Rich,
> 
> Thank you so much for stirring the pot, once again...
> With moderators like you, things should calm down in a hurry
> 
> My post was directed to ONE individual who, like you, wanted to stir the pot...
> 
> So, Rich, if you can't follow the thread and its intent, I'll give you the bottom line:
> 
> I am through commenting about A.R.K.'s (his new name) credentials...the frickin' horse is dead...Now drop YOUR stick...if you weren't beating the horse, you might actually see what's going on here.
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *




Thank you Sir! for making this crystal clear to me.

I appriciate you taking the time to educate me on this.

The Frickin Horse is dead, got it! 

My Stick is dropped.  I guess we will have to take each others' word that we will not mention this again. For if either of us ever do then, I guess we will know the true worth of that person's word.

Thank you again, Sir for the wonderful education.
:asian:



PS: The first post clear said not a moderator post, my Opinion. I apologize for not making the crystal clear. So, it is not with Moderators like me, but with posters like me. Have a Nice Day, I know I did by riding my bike


----------



## A.R.K.

Martialartist,

I understand your point but would like to point out that to some _the_  authority is not *the*  authority.  In otherwords, the Kukkiwon is not the be all to end all for TKD practitioners, at least the majority that I know personally.  They seem to have gone through some type of a break up where some top brass have gone on to form their own.  Good or bad, right or wrong..it simply has been done.  If the practitioner/instructor's technique/teaching is sound does it matter which of those TKD organizations 'back' them?  To some yes and to some no.  But isn't the bottom line the ability of a person?

My humble thoughts.
:asian:


----------



## A.R.K.

In regards to this thread, in my opinion it has gone quite well.  No one is taking shots at anyone on certain topics.  It would seem _general _  opinions and thoughts are being offered in a friendly matter without trying to step on toes deliberately.  At least that is my take.  

Is that not the way it should be?  We don't have to all agree...everytime...on every topic but if we respect each others right to respectfully have that opinion and express it....heck we might just learn some new stuff   

In regards to Dr. Kano the information I've read was he began at age 17 and at age 22 formed Judo.  There of course may well be more to it than that.  My point is that even a 22 year old with x amount of training can provide marvelous contributions.  Judo has stood the test of time and is enjoyed worldwide.  It would have been a shame had he been discouraged by someone who said 'A 22 year old doesn't know enough to do anything of this nature'.

Just a thought.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng

> Thank you Sir! for making this crystal clear to me


You're welcome.



> The first post clear said not a moderator post, my Opinion



oops...my bad...but I've seen this behavior before on this board...that person could not/would not stay out of the fray...he is no longer a moderator...

I think that you are entitled to voice an opinion when it's on topic; but when it comes to thread order and discipline, no one here is going to differentiate your "opinion" from a moderator's reprimand...your position requires that you think three times before posting...

Have a good day...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Is that not the way it should be?  We don't have to all agree...everytime...on every topic but if we respect each others right to respectfully have that opinion and express it....heck we might just learn some new stuff   *



No, you _must_ agree with me because I am always right...  most of the time...  occasionally...  once in a while...  sometimes...  usually not at all...  nearly never...



> *In regards to Dr. Kano the information I've read was he began at age 17 and at age 22 formed Judo.  There of course may well be more to it than that.  My point is that even a 22 year old with x amount of training can provide marvelous contributions.  Judo has stood the test of time and is enjoyed worldwide.  It would have been a shame had he been discouraged by someone who said 'A 22 year old doesn't know enough to do anything of this nature'.*



I still maintain that it would be easier to pare down an art into a competitive form than it would be to build one from the ground up.  For the run of the mill 22 year old, that just isn't within the confines of the possibilities of normal life experiences.  It would be the truly unique personality that would allow for enough life experience, training time, skill development and martial genius to allow someone to do so...

Kano and others like him are the exception, not the rule.  I'm not saying that it is impossible, only highly improbable. 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Marginal

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Martialartist,
> 
> I understand your point but would like to point out that to some the  authority is not the  authority.  In otherwords, the Kukkiwon is not the be all to end all for TKD practitioners, at least the majority that I know personally.  They seem to have gone through some type of a break up where some top brass have gone on to form their own.  Good or bad, right or wrong..it simply has been done.  If the practitioner/instructor's technique/teaching is sound does it matter which of those TKD organizations 'back' them?  To some yes and to some no.  But isn't the bottom line the ability of a person?
> 
> My humble thoughts.
> :asian: *



There's a flaw in this reasoning though. So they break off... Their instructors who approved their rank prior to the schism remain exactly the same however, and whatever lineage those had is still documented so that someone can call up the instructor/home office and ask what rank they were awarded prior to them leaving the orginization at the very least. The instructor wouldn't even have to be widely known as long as he was in the books somewhere.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *But does "repackaging" really amount to creating a new system?  If I put a Big Mac in a paper box instead of a styrofoam one, is the burger really any different?
> 
> 
> 
> So you really are are traditionalist!  Everything you wrote in that description is true of living traditional martial arts (as opposed to the dead ones that have stagnated and failed to pass on anything other than mimicked movements).  Nothing really new there...
> 
> 
> 
> So if you are "grooming" them according to your expectations, they really aren't any better off than they would be if they went to another school...  They should be presented information, techniques, theories and strategies, all of which they should be required to learn, but portions of which they will choose to make "their own" through practice.  In this way, "their own" techniques will be put into practice and they will develop their own abilities out of them.  By making them conform to your perceptions of what is best is really forcing them to conform to your beliefs and abilities, not necessarily theirs.
> 
> When I learned Yiliquan from Sifu Starr, he really didn't emphasize one part over any other.  He presented the entire package to us for us to digest and internalize.  I prefer to hammer away at someone, punishing them before turning out the lights.  That's my preference, and it goes along with my physical stature.  One of our other instructors prefers throws and joint locks, nearly to the exclusion of other techniques.  That fits his body type and mentality.  But we all teach exactly the same material.  We may have our own unique way of approaching the communication of it, but we leave nothing out.  That way, the student can decide what their likes and dislikes are, and where their natural abilities lie...
> 
> 
> 
> Just because we can change a thing doesn't necessarily mean we should.  Just a thought...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.

I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.

I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there. 

I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.

Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.

But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.
> 
> I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.
> 
> I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.
> 
> I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.
> 
> Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.
> 
> But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out. *


I agree

For example, BJJ came from judo.  The biggest difference that I can think of is that BJJ focuses more on submission moves.  Basically the same concepts, just different emphasis.  I wouldn't say BJJ was a new style really, just took what was already existing and narrowed the perspective a bit, just like what judo did to jujitsu.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> oops...my bad...but I've seen this behavior before on this board...that person could not/would not stay out of the fray...he is no longer a moderator...
> *



I apologize if I came across wrong, yet it is wrong to assume that I will act just like others. Sir, if that last is a threat, remember I have missed read your intents before, I take exception to this. If you have a problem with me as a member  or moderator then report me, do not make idle threats. I do apologize if that is not what you meant, yet others have made similar comments on this board. Since, you seem to think I am like others, I am forced to think you might be others as well, playing by your rules.

 Like I Said my opinion to this, was that the dead horse comment was also stirring the pot with a big stick. Oh Well my bad.



> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *
> I think that you are entitled to voice an opinion when it's on topic; but when it comes to thread order and discipline, no one here is going to differentiate your "opinion" from a moderator's reprimand...your position requires that you think three times before posting...
> 
> Have a good day...
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *



Hmmm On topic. Yes. I agree, so that I do not make the mistake again, please explain how the little ditty about the horse was on topic? I know I have missed the topic, as you have clearly pointed out to me. So, I am very confused, and would like to be educated on this issue.


As to posting, I should think three times. Hmmmm, maybe if all of the members also followed this nice advice and in my opinion yourself, then maybe just maybe there would be less confusion and less disagreements.



Oh Yeah, I think in general this thread has gone well, I just took person exception to the dead horse being beaten by a stick. So, like I said I missed the point of this thread. Just learning.

:asian:


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## chufeng

Rich,

Since you are a moderator, I think you can verify that I've never turned anyone in for any comment in any thread, ever...I don't play that game.



> Sir, if that last is a threat, remember I have missed read your intents before, I take exception to this.



Really, HOW can I threaten you?  I don't appoint moderators...I don't get people fired...
It was simply an observation...

The dead horse thread was to EMPHASIZE to DAC that the four people involved in that "discussion" had put the issue to rest...if you go back a ways you'll see where he tried to stir it up...I was trying to put an end to it once and for all.

As far as "playing by my rules" I don't know what you are trying to insinuate...I am a guest on this board and rules established by the moderators are the rules I play by...

Have a good day
:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan

Why is Chufeng the one being questioned about this when DAC is the one that tried to put some gas on a fire that was already out?


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> * Like I Said my opinion to this, was that the dead horse comment was also stirring the pot with a big stick. Oh Well my bad.
> *




I think you need to re-read the thread from the beginning. Chufeng was trying to squelch something before it got started back up. 

What was the topic of this thread anyway?????


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *What was the topic of this thread anyway????? *



Heck, I am confused. I think it had something to do with the fact that some people are quite willing to claim something in a public forum, where it can be read by millions of people, and when they are asked for some sort of proof they get evasive.

Of course, it just seems to be common sense that if you do so, then you have to expect most people to talk about you like you are a lying, incompetent fraud. If you claim you studied under a certain master, you need to prove it. If you don't want to reveal something while proving it, you should not be talking about it in the open in the first place. The same goes for street fighting experiences, military service, ranks or anything else that may be asked to be proven. There are points in my life I don't like to talk about. I do not even mention them in passing. I will never have to prove something based on something I do not want out in the open.

In my opinion, anyone who makes a claim about their personal training and then refuses to back that claim up is a fraud. Everything they or their students say from that point on is suspect. I can not even count how many times I have run across groups that claim to have 1000 year old Japanese lineages only to check and see that no one in Japan has ever heard of them and the guy who "revealed" the art to the public is completely ignorant of anything Japanese. But 99 times out of 100 they come back and say, "lineages/rank aren't important- fighting is and we can fight!" Oh? If lineages aren't important, why did you mention them in the first place? And why should we trust your word that you guys can fight?

And I am talking about personal experience. Some people bring up the fact that some arts can't be traced back 500 years like they claim to cover the fact that they can't prove that they had the training they boast about. I accept that problems happen with history over time, but everyone should be able to prove the claims they themselves make about what they did and achieved.

I just got through with a thread on another forum. The head of the style wrote a response talking about how no one was interested in getting to the truth, only attacking them. And he mentioned how no one had said anything to his face. I shot back a response saying that I did ask for some sort of proof that the guy's teacher was in Japan and offered to go visit them when they showed up in Japan this summer as they claim. So far- silence. It is rather amazing that the grand poo bah of an art seems scared of a little guy like me.  

As for Kano and Lee, both of them did not really come up with a style, rather a way of looking at martial arts and training. If you look at the Koshiki no kata of the Kdokan, you will find the curriculum of the Kito ryu. Kano just wanted a new way of training that relflected the Western ways of education he had been exposed to. JKD students take things from complete arts like Kali, boxing and Wing Chun and make their own way. In neither case did the two really come up with techniques and say, "this is the way!" Both just rebbelled against the "classical mess" they saw and developed a new philosophy.

But for someone in the modern age to start an art at age 22 is somewhat silly- but common.  Toi start your own style is to become head of it. To be head of a style means you are a master in the eyes of others. And the image that people build up in the eyes of others tends to be something they will defend to the death rather than admit they do not know everything. 22, that is a time to make many, many mistakes and learn from them. Too many "masters" just can not afford to make mistakes in the eyes of their students. Many do not push themselves enough. Some will even try to explain away their failures as some sort of brilliance.

But true growth comes from setting goals outside your reach, falling flat on your face and then after you dust yourself off, asking, "why did I fail and how can I avoid doing so the next time?"

I will give you an example. There was a guy who started his own "modern ninjutsu" style in 1979. I have a book written by him from 1999- two decades later. Despite 20 years as a master, he is still making mistakes that were very, very basic and would get him corrected in any dojo I associate with.

I am sure you have heard of Miyamoto Musashi. Have you ever heard of a contemporary of his called Yagyu Munenori? He was also a great swordsman who sent many swordsmen to defeat in his age. Both Musashi and Munenori had  reputations as very efficient killers in an age known for its violence by the time they were 30 or so. Yet both of them wrote comments to the effect that they did not really understand martial arts until they were about 50. So you see how I look at 22 year olds that talk about starting their own style?

Here is a more recent example. Have you heard of "Jim Grover"? If you are interested in teaching self defense I would reccomend his stuff. In his book on street smarts he says this, (pg 171)





> Second, it has been my experience that once one has named a technique after himself- even if the instructor is faced with irrefutable proof that there is a better, safer more effecient technique- he'll defend his to the end. After all, in his eyes he'll be remembered as having claimed to develop the best technique when, in fact, it wasn't. This is all good fun until you realize that teaching a substandard method may cost a person his life. If I learn something better today and can validate it, I'll be teaching it tommorow.



22 year old masters? Claims that can be made in public but can never be backed up- even as somethign as simple as who taught you? These are things that should set off alarms in people's heads. But of course, there are always people who need to be seen as macho in the eyes of others and people who will follow them. I think everyone should read the article "Tenth Dan in Bul Shi Tsu" written by Sharp Phil at PhilElmore.com. I can not seem to link directly to it.


----------



## A.R.K.

:shrug:  Opinions vary....

At length I discussed 'proving' something in regards to the martial arts.  Would you care to venture your opinion as to how someone could offer proof via the internet?

And should they offer it to those that demand or to those that respectfully request?

:asian:


----------



## chufeng

Many good points, Don.

Our school has had several "renegades" who opened schools with our founder's good wishes, but who then went on to "do their own thing." They were given permission to teach but were also to do so within the guidelines of the Association...they didn't.

One was charging a lot of money (up to $100/mo) for lessons and had strayed from the "standards" set down by sifu (who teaches for very little)...when they were told to get in line they said they had "grown beyond sifu's understanding." What a load of crap... My teacher is now 56 years old; he started training at the age of 7... He's trained many "black sash" level students but that does not qualify them for teaching our system...those who want to teach, must complete an instructor's course...After that they may open a school, with permission (and supervision, if they are below third level black sash)...yet, we've had first level students open schools and declare that sifu didn't know what he was talking about...BUT, they were more than willing to use the YiLi logo and name to promote the stuff they developed...they have since changed the name of what they do (after a visit, or threatened visit, by my senior, Mr. Burgess)...

Funnier still, I've met black belts from MANY different styles...I've trained with them...and they ask me to teach them...I hold to the standards of my teacher...how is it that senior folk in other styles desire to learn YiLi as it was intended to be taught? and at the same time, those who have broken away are finding it difficult? Because the system works...those who let their ego get in the way of real learning and then make claims to some grandiose rank and knowledge really do piss me off...and that is why I am so suspicious of claims of sokeship...and dan ranks beyond 7th.

But even in the little town of Puyallup, Washington, there are no less than three grandmasters advertising in the yellow pages...go figure...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone

I was always amazed at how many martial arts masters and grandmasters that had settled in all the small towns I have lived in...  It must be the sense of community and overall safety that these most deadly of people seek out as a haven from the violence that surely follows them every waking moment...

Or not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng

A.R.K.,



> Would you care to venture your opinion as to how someone could offer proof via the internet?



There is no way to verify beyond checking the records of the organizations or teachers who they claim to have trained under.

Scanned documents won't fly because they can be faked...
Phone calls won't work (if numbers are provided by the fake) because they may simply instruct their friend(s) to cover for them.

So, it is very difficult to verify claims made on the internet...
Your student, DAC, has actually done more for your credibility (even though he needs to learn when enough is enough) than anything you've provided...

At any rate, I accept you as a fellow instructor...you have YOUR art, which you've designed and founded...I do not view it as a traditional system, however...and I think you said as much, recently, in a post about reorganizing the rank structure, etc...

Peace
:asian:
chufeng


----------



## A.R.K.

Chufeng  :asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *And should they offer it to those that demand or to those that respectfully request? *



Once a person has made a claim, it is their responsibility to then prove it no matter what they think of the attitude of the person demanding the proof.

Otherwise, we get cases where people make claims and then _never_ seem to find anyone whose attitude they find worthy of showing proof to. Many seem to take the stance that just by asking about their claims you are insulting them. Others find an excuse with the art of the person asking for proof. I have seen all these dodges before.

Wayne Muromoto talked about this when he wrote the article Are You in a Martial Arts Cult? Among other signs of a martial arts cult he cited this behavior,



> --As soon as you ask questions about the teacher's origins and instructors, you get a "I don't have to tell you because you're an idiot" behavior. Sure, there's obnoxious snooping, but there's also reasonable and expected questioning that must arise if you visit a dojo. One correspondent sent me a copy of a letter he received after he inquired about a great master's credentials. "I don't have to tell you, and besides, everyone knows I'm a master, so if you keep snooping, I will not talk to you," was the "master's" basic reply.



And there are ways of checking many types of claims. If someone claims to be teaching a Japanese art, they should be found in a Japanese source. If someone claims to have gotten a rank from someone, then givng their name in public is a good start. There are ways of finding people on your own by means of phone books. And posting their certificates on the internet where people who read Japanese can see it _is_ a good move. If nothing else, it gives those of us who can read Japanese a good laugh. I was sent one that was issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association". I saw another that said it was the "Whore House Association."  A typical person running into this in a McDojo would not know they were so funny, but posting it on the internet lets many people of different abilities see it and somebody should be able to tell if it is fake.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Many good points, Don.
> 
> Our school has had several "renegades" who opened schools with our founder's good wishes, but who then went on to "do their own thing." They were given permission to teach but were also to do so within the guidelines of the Association...they didn't.
> 
> One was charging a lot of money (up to $100/mo) for lessons and had strayed from the "standards" set down by sifu (who teaches for very little)...when they were told to get in line they said they had "grown beyond sifu's understanding." What a load of crap... My teacher is now 56 years old; he started training at the age of 7... He's trained many "black sash" level students but that does not qualify them for teaching our system...those who want to teach, must complete an instructor's course...After that they may open a school, with permission (and supervision, if they are below third level black sash)...yet, we've had first level students open schools and declare that sifu didn't know what he was talking about...BUT, they were more than willing to use the YiLi logo and name to promote the stuff they developed...they have since changed the name of what they do (after a visit, or threatened visit, by my senior, Mr. Burgess)...
> 
> Funnier still, I've met black belts from MANY different styles...I've trained with them...and they ask me to teach them...I hold to the standards of my teacher...how is it that senior folk in other styles desire to learn YiLi as it was intended to be taught? and at the same time, those who have broken away are finding it difficult? Because the system works...those who let their ego get in the way of real learning and then make claims to some grandiose rank and knowledge really do piss me off...and that is why I am so suspicious of claims of sokeship...and dan ranks beyond 7th.
> 
> But even in the little town of Puyallup, Washington, there are no less than three grandmasters advertising in the yellow pages...go figure...
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *


Puyallup??!!!!  I have a grandson living in the Puget Sound area as well!  I'd talk to him about visiting your school.  Currently though, he's into MA, for self-defense and character building reasons, but he'd much rather play football and do track instead.


----------



## A.R.K.

> Once a person has made a claim, it is their responsibility to then prove it no matter what they think of the attitude of the person demanding the proof.



Curious that you would feel this way....



> If someone claims to be teaching a Japanese art, they should be found in a Japanese source.



People in countries around the world train in styles from other parts of the world.  These systems have migrated extensively.  An American studying a Ryu in the Middle East from an Arabic teacher should have ties to Asian sources?  With respect I disagree.  _Sources_  often mean money has to be spent for approval/recognition which does nothing towards the actual ability of the practitioner.  And there are probably organizations available in the country trained in, if one wishes to associate them.  One does not need membership however in any organization to 'better' their training.



> If someone claims to have gotten a rank from someone, then givng their name in public is a good start.



Assuming the individual allows it.  Many instructors are private individuals that aren't looking for internet attention.  And unless you know every teacher in the world...what does a name really do towards credibility?  Someone with an agenda could merely say 'never heard of em'.



> And posting their certificates on the internet where people who read Japanese can see it is a good move.



Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted.  Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines.  Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.  

As I've already said, there is really no evidence that can be offered that can't be negatively spoken against even if authentic and reputable.  

Unless you personally know....you don't know.  

 :asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Unless you personally know....you don't know. *



Good point.  It brings up one of the most important features of boards just like this one - communication.

If Chufeng wants to know what RyuShiKan is like, he can ask me.  I have trained with him.  I personally know.

Chufeng has trained with (I think) Taika Oyata.  Taika Oyata was RyuShiKan's teacher.  If I (or others outside Ryu Te) want to know what Taika is like, they can ask Chufeng or better yet RyuShiKan.  They personally know.

Therefore, we have credible evidence to substantiate RyuShiKan's skills - both by knowing his teacher, and having experienced his skills first hand.

Lacking the ability to travel to Japan to train with him, folks that know me will have to take my word on it.

And so it goes.

Person A knows Persons B, C, and D personally.  They train together, have coffee together, etc.  Person B knows Persons E, F and G.  By extension, then, if Person B says that Person A is well skilled, but Person C couldn't find their butt with both hands and a map, and Persons E, F and G have reason to believe that Person B knows what he/she is talking about, then they have credible evidence pointing to the fact that Person A kicks butt, and Person C can't find his...

Eventually, via boards like this, the MA community in the real world begins to shrink.  The arnis folks here meet via camps during the year, and many of them know each other personally.  They can all vouch for each other.  Arnisador knows nbcdecon, my Modern Arnis teacher.  Through nbcdecon, I have learned a little about Arnisador.  Therefore, lacking the ability to meet Arnisador in person, and having respect for nbcdecon's skills and insights, I feel I know about Arnisador from a credible source.

So posting information on the internet is a very good source for both reinforcing the reputations of good schools, and exposing bad schools for the frauds they are.  People all over this board have spoken out about and against Chung Moo Doe, Temple Kung Fu and other questionable arts, and have been able to get first hand testimonials both for and against those arts.  They make use of the reputations people have on this board to function as their "personal knowledge" of the person posting their opinions.  And like I said before several times, at some point you have to trust somebody...

I can sympathize with someone wanting to remain out of the spotlight.  Fine.  But for their students who choose to enter the public arena, at some point their names are going to have to come up.  Sure, not everyone knows everyone, but the "reasonable person standard" can apply here...  Not every "reasonable person" has an axe to grind, so most "reasonable people" will recognize their innate inability to know everyone or everything...  That's my job! 

As for the bogus Asian language certificates...  I get a real kick out of them!  I can read a little (not much, really), and have seen a few schools whose banners were a real hoot - not even close for what they claimed to be representing!

Musashi said that this kind of misrepresentation was going on in his time...  Somehow I don't think it is really going to get any better.  But that doesn't stop me from "perservering..."

Gambarimasu.  (which means "to perservere" for the folks that didn't get my little joke...  )

:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Thats my point the material is no longer the same. *



Did I reply to this before?  I don't remember...

No, the material *is* the same...  Its presentation may be different, but the core elements, the doctrine, the theory, the movement, etc., are all identical.

I teach punching and kicking as nothing more than controlled, directed natural movements.  This helps, in my opinion, the non-MAist to grasp the idea a little better.  When you throw in our body mechanics, they see immediately that the body mechanics make the technique just come out...  All they have to do, then, is aim it.

That is not how I was taught, nor is it how other Yili instructors teach.  But their students and my students all execute the same punches and kicks...

Same material, different wrapper.

So just because I change the presentation of my sushi, doesn't make the fish a different fish nor the rice different rice...  It may look a little different from the last plate, but it is still rice and fish...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Arnisador knows nbcdecon, my Modern Arnis teacher.  Through nbcdecon, I have learned a little about Arnisador.  Therefore, lacking the ability to meet Arnisador in person, and having respect for nbcdecon's skills and insights, I feel I know about Arnisador from a credible source.
> *



Of course, this is unfair--like most of my friends in the service, he's a very nice guy who'd say polite and upbeat things about anyone. To the extent that he's spoken well of me I'm sure he's exaggerated and to the extent that he's spoken critically of me I'm sure he's cut it in half.

When I job hunt--frequently in my profession, where one often must change employers to advance (which then has negative effects on my training of course)--two of my references are retired brigadier generals, and I feel it's unfair to prospective employers because they are such nice, positive, upbeat people that they'd make anyone look good!

It's been years since I've seen *nbcdecon* but Mr. Hartman keeps me informed of his doings in Japan. The last time we were together I was helping him stretch during warm-up--he had his leg just about directly over his head while standing on the other one.

Ah, it's a small world--we have one degree of separation, you and I!


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Of course, this is unfair--like most of my friends in the service, he's a very nice guy who'd say polite and upbeat things about anyone. To the extent that he's spoken well of me I'm sure he's exaggerated and to the extent that he's spoken critically of me I'm sure he's cut it in half.*



Nah...  He said you were a %$#**^%$ sorry ^%$#^%$# ladyboy %$#@&^%$&$#&^ without a *&^^%$)_!    Other than that, he seemed to think you were pretty okay...  :lol:



> *It's been years since I've seen nbcdecon but Mr. Hartman keeps me informed of his doings in Japan. The last time we were together I was helping him stretch during warm-up--he had his leg just about directly over his head while standing on the other one.*



I haven't seen nor trained with him in over 7 months.  I miss the psycho quite a bit.  His life is pretty hectic right now, but last I heard he was giving some consideration to trying his hand in the ring...  Not sure whether that coalesced or not.  What I do remember was his stick thundering toward my hands...  And never landing.  His control was so good that he could lay that stick on you at full speed and only touch skin - no sting, no pain, just contact and control.  _That_ more than anything else was what made me want to study with him...  He actually approached me and a Yili student I had there because he saw us walking the circle and he had an interest in Baguazhang...  Really glad I met him.  I still count him as one of the best friends I have.



> *Ah, it's a small world--we have one degree of separation, you and I! *



And that is sort of my point from upthread...  I know him, you know him.  We both know of his skill and can testify that he's good.  So you can tell people and I can tell people, and if they trust us, they trust our judgement, and therefore will accept our opinion that he is good.  Done deal.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng

He's more than welcome, anytime...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng

I forgot the reason I posted this...



> Puyallup??!!!! I have a grandson living in the Puget Sound area as well!



chufeng


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *People in countries around the world train in styles from other parts of the world.  These systems have migrated extensively.  An American studying a Ryu in the Middle East from an Arabic teacher should have ties to Asian sources?  With respect I disagree.*



A Japanese art that has never been heard of in Japan, only the Middle East? Silly. And if you are talking about someone who studied Judo or something from someone in the Middle East, then this person should be able to show proof of his teacher. If he claims a Kodokan black belt, then the Kodokan in Tokyo should be able to back up their claim.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Sources  often mean money has to be spent for approval/recognition which does nothing towards the actual ability of the practitioner. *



Sometimes, but not always. Not even in the vast majority of cases. If someone wanted to say they trained in  a Japanese martial art, but there was not even a single Japanese source for it like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that is a pretty clear sign that someone is lying.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *One does not need membership however in any organization to 'better' their training.*



True, which is why some people never talk about the orginizations they have been in, but rather let their ability speak for themselves. Those that claim to have been part of an orginization- or gotten rank from them, do not do this and thus the onus is on them to back up their claims.





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Many instructors are private individuals that aren't looking for internet attention. *



If this is the case, then the person who is on the internet and made the claims should respect their teachers wishes by never putting them in the position in the first place. If someone claims to have gotten to have gotten a eighth dan, then the question of from whom will come up sooner or later. If they do not want their teacher to be bothered, they should not make the claim of recieving rank in the first place. I knew one guy who claimed that all he was teaching us was stuff he picked up from old magazines. With the skill he showed, he did not have to try to impress us with who he trained with or what rank he got.

People that claim to have studied X number of years or under A sensei or gotten Y rank do not try to impress people with their ability. And the onus for the proof is on them.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *And unless you know every teacher in the world...what does a name really do towards credibility?  Someone with an agenda could merely say 'never heard of em'.*



Not everyone has an agenda. And if they did and said they never heard of them, then when someone else proved that the person existed and verified the claimnent's story, then the person with the agenda would look silly in the eyes of the entire internet. And with the information superhighway, a persons identity can usually be found and people who know him and are nuetral can be contacted to verify stories.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted.  Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines.  Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.*



The certificate I talked about from the Heavenly Dog Association seemed to be just this. It was funny because the guy did not know what to cut out, and what to leave in. Japanese is a difficult language and the chances that someone could peice one together without some ability is roughly the same as putting a monkey in a  room with a typewriter and having it duplicate 
Shakespeare.  



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *As I've already said, there is really no evidence that can be offered that can't be negatively spoken against even if authentic and reputable.*



Someone can always take such an attitude. You can quote specific books and page numbers but there may well be people who claim the books do not exist. But you do give onlookers the chance to find the source and see for themselves. And to use the chance that _someone_ will deny proof as an excuse to turn down _anyone_ from getting the chance to look up a claim for themself is a pretty good indicator of a complete fraud and incompetent.

And again, if ability is all that is important, then talk of time spent training or ranks given is silly- so why are they making the claims in the first place? Once they make the claim, it is their responsibilty to back it up.


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out. *



My friend, you need to take a trip "Down Under"!
The version of Ryukyu Kempo that I am learning, incorporates all ranges of combat.
I think you would be quite surprised as to how in-depth we go.

--Dave

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

Don, 

Excellent posts!
You have said many of the many of the things I wanted to convey.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> * Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted.  Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines.  Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.  *




Well actually you cant just go to Kinkos and get them made.
Menkyo/Menjo are not usually copied but hand written..even in this day in age.

Why???????
 So scumbags dont go to Kinkos and get copies made.

Stamps and seal must match other certificates stamps and seals by the same organization/teacher.
Also the stamps you get out of the back of magazines are VERY basic and not used on menjo/menkyo. They are easy to spot as being fake. 
Anyone that has trained in Japan for a while and received rank here could spot a fake rank certificate in a nanosecond.  




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> Unless you personally know....you don't know.
> 
> :asian: *



I have spotted several fake dan certificates that were posted on the net..its easy.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Don, 

I especially like your comment:



> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *But 99 times out of 100 they come back and say, "lineages/rank aren't important- fighting is and we can fight!" Oh? If lineages aren't important, why did you mention them in the first place? And why should we trust your word that you guys can fight? *



This comment could be said about bogus rank claimers too.
It seems the bozos that claim rank has no meaning also claim the highest grades and most ranks too!!
Oh the irony:rofl:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.
> 
> I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.
> 
> I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.
> 
> I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.
> 
> Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.
> 
> But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out. *


Try looking at places other than the mall


----------



## A.R.K.

Yiliquan 1,



> Person A knows Persons B, C, and D personally. They train together, have coffee together, etc. Person B knows Persons E, F and G. By extension, then, if Person B says that Person A is well skilled, but Person C couldn't find their butt with both hands and a map, and Persons E, F and G have reason to believe that Person B knows what he/she is talking about, then they have credible evidence pointing to the fact that Person A kicks butt, and Person C can't find his...



Assuming that everyone of them is honest and doesn't have an axe to grind or agenda or hurt feelings or is their best buddy or.....

Still subjective and boils down to what a person wishes to accept as factual and wishes to believe.



> And like I said before several times, at some point you have to trust somebody...



Bingo.

Don,



> A Japanese art that has never been heard of in Japan, only the Middle East? Silly.



You misread my post.  I said someone who has trained in a particular style [Japan or other] in the middle east by an Arabic instructor need not have any direct connection to the [alleged] originating country.  If Mr. Smith an American lives in Nigeria and wishes to take TKD from a Nigerian national instructor he may do so.  If he wishes to belong to a Nigerian TKD association or any other he may do so.  But if he chooses not to that is fine as well.  It is not going to increase his skill one iota to pay the high fees demanded by the Kukkiwon just to have their peace of paper.



> If someone wanted to say they trained in a Japanese martial art, but there was not even a single Japanese source for it like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that is a pretty clear sign that someone is lying.



Nope this is incorrect.  As I stated above.  I can learn BJJ in America, I can learn TKD in Brazil, I can learn Yudo in Greenland.  The only thing *needed*  is a qualified instructor.  Mr. Smith doesn't need paper from anywhere except perhaps his own instructor.



> Someone can always take such an attitude.



On this we agree.  Some people will whine and pitch a fit regardless of what they actually know first hand.  Some have a preconcieved idea regardless of any diologe.  pointless really to entertain them further..just let them blow.  Eventually they'll wear themselves out.  



> Japanese is a difficult language and the chances that someone could peice one together without some ability is roughly the same as putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter and having it duplicate



Perhaps, but Japanese speaking people live outside Japan.  All it takes is asking someone fluent to assist.

RyuShiKan,



> Well actually you cant just go to Kinkos and get them made.



Anything can be duplicated with enough time and effort.  Perhaps well, perhaps poorly.

In general,

Ability over paper.  Paper is subjective and relative.  Some accept, some don't.  Bottom line is to go home safe to those you love.

:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan

ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today, 



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> RyuShiKan,
> Anything can be duplicated with enough time and effort.  *



Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that persons hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you wont be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinkos just wont cut it.
Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have..and more than likely have met them at some point in time.say during the examination to get said high dan rank. 
Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike. 





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> Ability over paper.  *



It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.


Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> 
> You misread my post.  I said someone who has trained in a particular style [Japan or other] in the middle east by an Arabic instructor need not have any direct connection to the [alleged] originating country.  If Mr. Smith an American lives in Nigeria and wishes to take TKD from a Nigerian national instructor he may do so.  If he wishes to belong to a Nigerian TKD association or any other he may do so.  But if he chooses not to that is fine as well.  It is not going to increase his skill one iota to pay the high fees demanded by the Kukkiwon just to have their peace of paper.
> :asian: [/B]


That is stupid talk.  If an instructor is teaching a Japanese art in the Middle East, he should have some connection to Japan.  If an instructor is teaching a Middle Eastern art in Japan, he should have ties to the Middle East, as simple as that.  If a Nigerian TKD association awards someone a black belt, then it really isn't worth anything out there in the real world, I'm sorry.  When the guy receives a 9th dan from the Nigerian TKD association, and advertises that he has a 9th degree, but his sources don't check out with Kukkiwon, then it isn't worth it.  Like everyone poitned out, if rank isn't important, why do they mention that they have a 9th degree from some second-hand organization?


----------



## MartialArtist

When someone claims a rank, I want it to be from the authentic source.  I am an instructor (not really), and I do not belong to any organization in terms of teaching.  I do belong to Kukkiwon but not as an instructor.  My program is basically free, and anyone can join it.  What I do is condition the people, toughen them up, go over the basics of all ranges of fighting, help people improve their athleticism and qualities that are needed to defend themselves.  You can compare my classes to a military academy for comissioned, or boot camp for the enlisted.  After my basic and advanced programs, I advise them to search for a school depending on what they're looking for.  I recommend them to move on and give a few suggestions on where they could go.

Other than that, the few other arts that I do no care what organization they belong to is boxing and wrestling.  Boxing, there is no rank.  And the "organizations" are in very bad shape.  Wrestling, it's individual really past college.  There are clubs, there are some organizations, but there are a lot of "freelancers".  But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * Like everyone poitned out, if rank isn't important, why do they mention that they have a 9th degree from some second-hand organization? *




Several reasons I think.

First, they can fool the uninitiated rather easily with this.
Second, like all conmen and crooks, they think they will never get caught, or nobody is looking.
Third, their ego NEEDS it. They have such a lack of confidence in their skills they promote themselves or their pals promote them through one of the mutual dan societies out there.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today,
> 
> 
> 
> Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
> There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
> First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that persons hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you wont be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinkos just wont cut it.
> Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have..and more than likely have met them at some point in time.say during the examination to get said high dan rank.
> Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.
> 
> 
> Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy. *


Agreed.

Kukkiwon uses a similar system.  Not only is there a hand-carved stamp, signature, etc., but with modern technology, and if you know someone with ties to Kukkiwon in some way (as a mere high instructor, grandmaster, or council member), you can just ask to go into their database.  I've heard something that Kukkiwon has an online database but not sure, and if there was one, you would need all your information (such as your #, date on the certificate, your name, birthdate, all the information on the certificate.

What's more is that Kukkiwon also uses a special type of paper for higher poom certificates, like the American dollar bill.  And like the dollar bills in the US ($5 and over), there are special markings that when help up in the light, you can see.

Counterfeiting a certificate is almost as hard as counterfeiting a $100 bill...  And expecting to pass tests at a world bank.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama. *



True.
Logic would dictate that they have a connection to Oyama or now that he is gone a legit part of his Org..

However, since there are few REAL 8th dans in traditional systems based in Okinawa/Japan and most of them are fairly well know it would be easy to verify such claims. 
If someone claims I have (insert bloated dan rank) from Billy Bobs Bar Room Ryu. It doesnt bother me since it is a new system and they can claim any dan rank they want. 
When people make claims to extremely high rank in traditional styles based in Okinawa/Japan then I get suspicious.


Making false claims to high ranks in Okinawa/Japan is not only uneducated but also childish and shows a lack of understanding what REAL martial arts are about.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Agreed.
> 
> Kukkiwon uses a similar system.  Not only is there a hand-carved stamp, signature, etc., but with modern technology, and if you know someone with ties to Kukkiwon in some way (as a mere high instructor, grandmaster, or council member), you can just ask to go into their database.  I've heard something that Kukkiwon has an online database but not sure, and if there was one, you would need all your information (such as your #, date on the certificate, your name, birthdate, all the information on the certificate. What's more is that Kukkiwon also uses a special type of paper for higher poom certificates, like the American dollar bill.   *



My teachers association uses something similar to this as well, plus having your photo on the certificate..so unless someone goes to get some cosmetic surgery they wont be able to fake the certificates. In my teachers association dan and kyu certificates differ in style, paper, and writing, that way dishonest people cant bump themselves up if they leave the association.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *My friend, you need to take a trip "Down Under"!
> The version of Ryukyu Kempo that I am learning, incorporates all ranges of combat.
> I think you would be quite surprised as to how in-depth we go.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> :asian: *



"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.

I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.

My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.

I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.

I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.

Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight  one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.

So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.

To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter. 

I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.

So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post  something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate. 

But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Try looking at places other than the mall *


 I was "HEARING YA" until I read that!  

Care to enlighten us on Military TKD?  It seems that TKD is the one thats most common place in the mall.


----------



## A.R.K.

> ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today



 



> There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.



Whatever you would like to believe is fine.  I suppose one could just buy their rank from Japan instead of going about the trouble of forging one.  Seems you stated a while back that this type of thing happens their just as it does here...



> It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.



And your evidence for this concernig someone here would be...???  O'wait...I forgot this was suppose to be a dead issue    Seems like you still are quite concerned with it though :shrug:   Ability over paper ANYDAY.  Seems those who disagree don't have much realworld ability but lots of lineage.  Lineage won't help you in a dark parking lot...realworld experience will.  

Lets lay it on the line Robert, we aren't fond of each other...fair enough.  You think I have to belong to a particular organization for credibility...I disagree.  I think 'rank' is merely what others above you think of your training, nothing more or less.  Since there is NO standardization or universally accepted SOP's then rank is subjective and relative.  The ONLY thing that matters IS ability.  Either personally or also as an instructor.  

You are not going to thing I'm credible in terms of wall candy since I do not belong to an organization in Okinawa.  Fine Robert...FINE.  It doesn't matter.  The only one going on and on and on and on about my 'rank' is you.  I've mentioned it a couple of times in passing...you've droned on about it for months in your little soap box sessions.   If Grandmasters in America or the Middle East or Timbukto recognize me as whatever...who cares?  What does it affect in the world of martial arts?  Is it taking food out of your mouth Robert?  Is it causing you many a sleepless night?  Give me a break :shrug:   A thread closes and you start another one up so you can climb up on your soap box and whine again and again and again.  Give it a rest man  

You wanna get down to brass tacs...you whine about lineage and wall candy and crediblility and down play the realworld ability.  Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing.  Let me repeat that again in case you missed it the first time...*Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. * Lineage is fine, wall candy is fine, perfect kata is fine, drills are fine, oriental organizations are fine...but unless you've used it in combat to protect yourself or another....its only a hobby.  That includes instructors who have never actually been in harms way.  Oh, yeah they can teach...from others experiences...but not their OWN experiences.  

I have a partner that I cross-train with.  He has NO official ranking other than a brown belt from 20 years ago in a system he has never used outside the dojo.  But he has training in catch wrestling, boxing, ju jitsu etc with no rank earned and has used that training on more violent felons that even I have.  I would rather recieve training from him that any 5th Dan from Japan who has no experience outside the dojo.  

I could see you having a complaint if every other post from me was 'oh I'm so great cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'Everyone bow to me cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'oh, it's been 5 minutes...did I mention I'm an 8th Dan' or if I had a string of mcdojos and no experienc and I was scamming people and laughing all the way to the bank.  but your the only one going on about it.  Hardly ANYONE here would even know my ranks if you weren't whining about them.   I don't have it in my profile...I don't have it on my website....I keep all my wall candy in a box in my closet...

What I have posted is that I do have real world experience...ALOT OF IT.  Against real BADGUYS.  Associates can and have verified that.  I can provide you with all the proof from my agency should you care to call them and ask.  It's public record and I DO have a good reputation here as the guy to call when it all breaks loose.  Nope...not superman...but somethings I do well!  

So Robert, I don't care about my wall candy...nobody else here cares about my wall candy...why are you so obsessed with it?  I've said it before, I cannot offer you evidence of it's credibilty *that you will accept*.  So I've stated publically to forget about it...it doesn't exist....think of me as a white belt....think of me as a no belt....hell, don't think of me at all.  Your whinning doesn't matter and doesn't change a thing.  I can still teach and will do so by the grace of God.  My students have used my training in real world situations numerous times AND THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD COUNT!  My students aren't concerned with kata competition, they are concerned with taking down the violent felon and getting him cuffed and going home...period.  

So I'm not a traditionalist [and neither are you btw], I've never claimed to be one....and I wouldn't want to be one.  How many more threads are you going start?  How many more snide remarks?  How many more unsubstantiated allegations?  How much more whining?  Or can you actually be true to your word and BE DONE WITH IT?  

Everyone that I have provided verification to has been satisfied.  Nobody cares what 'rank' I am, only that I am a good teacher.  

*ENOUGH*


----------



## A.R.K.

Akja,

That is the common perception i.e. TKD=McDojo.

To bad to, real TKD [as opposed to the commercialized tippy tap stuff] is quite good.

:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> * *


:rofl: just as I thought.....






> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Whatever you would like to believe is fine.  I suppose one could just buy their rank from Japan instead of going about the trouble of forging one.  Seems you stated a while back that this type of thing happens their just as it does here...
> *



Yup, and most people know them to be such and laugh when folks present rank given by those sources too.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Akja,
> 
> That is the common perception i.e. TKD=McDojo.
> 
> To bad to, real TKD [as opposed to the commercialized tippy tap stuff] is quite good.
> 
> :asian: *



I know some TKD guys that are good fighters but its the ones ( day care centers) in the mall that "present" the "mall image" for the rest.  :asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> 
> Lets lay it on the line Robert, we aren't fond of each other...fair enough. *



You and DAC have stated several times that I am an idiot which to pretty much denotes your feelings about me..however I cant recall stating whether I like you or even dislike you.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> * You think I have to belong to a particular organization for credibility...I disagree *



You have twisted my meaning.
I think if you claim to have rank from a legit organization the claim should be legit. What you can or can not do was never the issue.


As for the rest of your diatribe it is the same old song played over from other posts you have made to which I have already commented on.

Also, I dont remember anyone pointing to you or your claims specifically in this postwhy do you feel this topic is about you.

I and others were speaking of people in general not about you.


----------



## A.R.K.

> You and DAC have stated several times that I am an idiot which to pretty much denotes your feelings about me..however I cant recall stating whether I like you or even dislike you.



Lets just say that is the general feeling I've gotten since day one when you jumped me with ten consecutive posts without giving me opportunity to reply and answer.  Fair enough...you have my public apology for the reference and I sincerly hope you forgive my trespass and personal attack :asian: 



> I think if you claim to have rank from a legit organization the claim should be legit. What you can or can not do was never the issue.



I have recognition from legitimate organizations BUT they are not in Okinawa.  If ONLY recognition from an Okinawian organization counts in your eyes then as I've said....I don't have them.  I am affiliated with American, European and Middle Eastern organizations.  And I resent any 'Mutual Dan giving party with my buddies' comments on your part because this is NOT the case.  I have earned through hard work what I have attained.  I have not spent one penny on 'recognition' through ANY organization ever!  Although I don't wear it, use it, teach it or display it...it is still something personal to me that I know I've earned because of hard work and dedication.  If my 'I's' aren't dotted and 'T's' crossed to your satisfaction, it still does not diminish my effort and ability.



> I and others were speaking of people in general not about you.



Alright...fine.  Then I will assume that any further comments, if any, in the future aren't about me either.  

You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other.  We might find that we have much in common.  We might find we can learn from one anther.  We might even find a friendship.

I am willing. I would like to see if you are as well.

With respect :asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.
> 
> I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.
> 
> My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.
> 
> I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.
> 
> I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.
> 
> Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight  one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.
> 
> So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.
> 
> To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.
> 
> I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.
> 
> So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post  something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.
> 
> But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian: *


Covering all ranges means that you should be pretty rounded in all ranges of fighting...  That does not mean you have to be the best submission fighter, that defeats the whole purpose, because if you just use submissions, then you aren't well rounded.

Your teaching methods are unique, since they are your's.  Mine are also unique.  My instructors in the past had a unique teaching style was unique.  It differs for most people.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I was "HEARING YA" until I read that!
> 
> Care to enlighten us on Military TKD?  It seems that TKD is the one thats most common place in the mall. *


Military TKD is similiar to hapkido, some boxing, wrestling and jujitsu takedowns and submissions, and many fast kicks and power kicks that are found in muay thai and sport TKD.  Only that high kicks are only practiced for indirect means.

Military TKD isn't for people in the military, just a name for its militant nature.  Most of the training I went to was full-contact sparring.  The conditioning aspect of it is comparable to that of the British SAS, and 1-2 hours out of the 4 hours training (takes some dedication as you might imagine) were conditioning.  Depends on the day, as it's impossible to go 4 hours everyday.  But there was a lot of character building, especially the mental part.

And yes, most of the TKD is one that is most common in the mall.  I don't deny it, and I don't look the other way.  It's nearly impossible to find a school that is not watereddown or sport-oriented in the US.  If the local wrestling club (which preps middle schoolers for high school wrestling) gets sued because a kid sprained his ankle, what do you expect out of any MA school where the people are punched in the face?


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *:rofl: just as I thought.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, and most people know them to be such and laugh when folks present rank given by those sources too. *


Yeah, you must have LOADS of money to bribe an organization in Japan.  It's not so simple...


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I know some TKD guys that are good fighters but its the ones ( day care centers) in the mall that "present" the "mall image" for the rest.  :asian: *


OMG, have you seen any of them?  They are badasses because they can break plywood boards!  Plus, did you know they memorized 20 forms?  Did you know they can yell real "kiyaahhh" real loud too?  I wouldn't want to tangle with them, even if it was a friendly exhibition sparring match.  They're too deadly.  I would advise you to do the same.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Lets just say that is the general feeling I've gotten since day one when you jumped me with ten consecutive posts without giving me opportunity to reply and answer.  Fair enough...you have my public apology for the reference and I sincerly hope you forgive my trespass and personal attack :asian:
> 
> 
> 
> I have recognition from legitimate organizations BUT they are not in Okinawa.  If ONLY recognition from an Okinawian organization counts in your eyes then as I've said....I don't have them.  I am affiliated with American, European and Middle Eastern organizations.  And I resent any 'Mutual Dan giving party with my buddies' comments on your part because this is NOT the case.  I have earned through hard work what I have attained.  I have not spent one penny on 'recognition' through ANY organization ever!  Although I don't wear it, use it, teach it or display it...it is still something personal to me that I know I've earned because of hard work and dedication.  If my 'I's' aren't dotted and 'T's' crossed to your satisfaction, it still does not diminish my effort and ability.
> 
> 
> 
> Alright...fine.  Then I will assume that any further comments, if any, in the future aren't about me either.
> 
> You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other.  We might find that we have much in common.  We might find we can learn from one anther.  We might even find a friendship.
> 
> I am willing. I would like to see if you are as well.
> 
> With respect :asian: *


And what organizations are those?

I don't know about you, but the sound of a Japanese art from a Middle Eastern organization (meaning there are no ties at all) then I'd be suspicious.  I'd be suspicious of an organization based in Argentina gave belts for krav maga.  Or a Japanese art in the United States.  Kempo is American, and although it is based on Japanese arts, it is still American.  And the founder of Kempo did have Japanese ties that check out.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *You are not going to thing I'm credible in terms of wall candy since I do not belong to an organization in Okinawa.*



Actually, if I understand all the screaming that has gone on so far, the problem seems to be that someone made a claim of being ranked in a system/orginizaion that is based in Okinawa. When that orginization was called, it turned out that the Okinawan orginization never heard of the person and the circumstances of him getting the rank were not possible.

The natural conclusion that can be made from this is that the person making the claim is a fraud. Which kind of puts any other claim that this person makes in doubt. For example, if this person starts saying that he has had real combat experience, I do not see why anyone should believe them. For all we know, he could be the a truely incompetent fraud and has surrounded himself with students that are even more dense than he. In fact, I do not see why anyone with any level of competence would have reason to lie about his personal ranking. As such, it is more likely that he is an incompetent fraud than had he never made the claims in the first place.

If the person had not made a claim that turned out to be an utter fabrication, then no one would probably be thinking of this person as being an incompetent fraud and Virtual Tough Guy. As it is, he made the claim, it turned out to be false and now _everything_ this guy says is now suspect.

And I happen to agree that ability trumps paper every time. But the fact is, he did make a claim to a certain rank- which is paper. And the burdon of proof lies on those that make claims, not anyone else.
:duel:


----------



## Kirk

The wind must've blown, causing the horse to twitch.


----------



## Jill666

Kirk, you are beautiful. :boing2:


----------



## Don Roley

Of course (trying to bring this back on subject) if someone was to make a claim on the internet like this,



> I do have real world experience...ALOT OF IT. Against real BADGUYS.



how should we verify it?

In this case, I would think that police reports, Emergency room logs and the like would be the place to start. Anyone who claims to have had real world experience but can not show a police report is either lying or considers "real world experience" to be the type of thing I got into back in kindergarten. In the real world, the police get very, very interested in violent situations.

Case in point- Peytonn Quinn (his web page can be found at RMCAT.com). Quinn was attacked with a  friend by three guys- at least one of whom had a baseball bat. Do you think that there was no paperwork after that situation? In fact, Quinn faced legal problems when the creeps that attacked him then lied to the police as to who started the ambush.

This is a case where a claim on the internet can be easily verified without having to resort to other people's statements. Police records are about as solid an evidence as you can get for this type of discussion. Anyone who would claim to be real experienced and then say his stories could not verified with the police should be treated like an incompetent fraud.


----------



## A.R.K.

Don,

Negative.  The art is originally Chinese, but there happens to be an Okinawin organization going be a *similar*  name.  As problems occurred in years past politically within the Uechi world many off-shoots came into existance.  Many had the view of returning as best as is possible to simply the Pangainoon system.  Therefore some have allegence to Okinawa, home of Uechi ryu, some have allegence to China and some simply no longer communicated with either.  Things beyond my control.  Pangainoon is of alleged Chinese origin.  Why would one need Okinawin permission to pursue training in it?  Since multiple arts are taught in countries other than their alleged origin, why would one need any relation to that country to train?  I've never been to China...but I have learned and taught Chin Na.  I don't think it has upset the Chinese any that I have learned and taught it..do you?  

Pangainoon has migrated to many, many countries as has Uechi ryu.  As a result many fine, strong martial artists have been produced from these countries and many without any 'assistance' from outside sources.  If I am at X rank and I teach you well up to Y rank in America and then you move to Russia and continue on educating students in that art...wonderful.  You will either be a competent instructor based on what you were taught or you won't.  Membership in an organization will not change this.  I have received my rank from non=Asian MA's.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I have done so by working very hard over a 30 year period of time.  An organization [any] will not do the work for me, the will not test for me and they certainly won't be there in the dark alley when the bg comes calling.  

I do belong to organizations for fellowship.  They have scrutinized my credentials and background.  They have recognized my achievements after that scrutiny.  They have not charged me one penny.  

My real world experience, as I've said, is verifiable as it is public record.  And has not been in disputed by anyone.

In my personal opinion the Middle East has a stronger 'tradition' than some of the Oriental countries.  It is my wish to associate with them.  They have chosen to recognize me of their own free will.  That has satisfied many people.  If it does not satisfy you then so be it.  Either way nothing is changed.  No one here can argue that rank is not subjective and relative.  No one here can argue that after a certain point, rank is time in grade and to a point honorary.  No one here can argue that the Asians have cornered the market on anything.  No one here can argue that style X can only be taught in certain countries.  

If anyone here wishes to believe that a particular country MUST have their hand involved, MUST have their seal of approval, MUST be paid tribute...then we will respectfully disagree.  If you feel that colors any input I have on any other subject that is entirely up to you.  Either way nothing is changed.

This dead horse is a die hard :rofl:


----------



## A.R.K.

> Anyone who would claim to be real experienced and then say his stories could not verified with the police should be treated like an incompetent fraud.



Absolutely correct.  As I just finished saying my experience is public record.  Not proud of it, I don't glory in it, it doesn't bring honor....but I have been there and have/will say so.  What we do is because some bg forced us to do so.  And because I do have the experience I teach in the police academy at S.E.P.S.I., another verifiable source.

Martial arts as we've discussed has no rule book or universally accepted SOP's...and never will.  FDLE is quite another story altogther.

:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *As I just finished saying my experience is public record.*



And how would someone who is suspicious go about accessing that public record? What are the dates and police report numbers? Remember, the onus is on the person making the claim- not just by talking as if it were fact- but by actually giving enough information so that people can independently verify the information for themselves.



> Pangainoon is of alleged Chinese origin. Why would one need Okinawin permission to pursue training in it?



I do not think that is the point. If the art merely has the same name as an Okinawan art, but is not Okinawan, then what is the contact information for the non- Okinawan orginization?

The point seems to be is that the only orginiation that some people can find with that name happens to be in Okinawa, and the Okinawan orginization denies the claim. If an error has been made, then what is the actual orginization and/or teacher that issued the rank so that the claim can be verified?


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.
> 
> I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.
> 
> My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.
> 
> I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.
> 
> I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.
> 
> Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight  one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.
> 
> So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.
> 
> To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.
> 
> I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.
> 
> So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post  something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.
> 
> But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian: *




I can't really point you anywhere on the net... Mr. Monea is incredibly modest when it comes to showing what he can do beyond the dojo. I can tell you that he is teaching Kempo, according to the way the old texts show it. 
He tells us that Kempo in its original form also incorporated grappling, and can demonstrate this from kata. our school is very traditional, we maintain all facets of dojo ettiquette, and Senseii is very strict when it comes to enforcing it.
As I say though, I can't really show you anything. Even when he was contacted by a local MA magazine, he told them that they would be better off interviewing his students rather than himself. His words were something along the lines of, "It would be boring to interview me, as I have no original thoughts of my own, when it comes to martial arts. Everything I say or do has been said or done before."
Of course I am paraphrasing, but you get the point, right?

I can tell you that when we train in the grappling side of things, we will do so many basics you think you're going to break before you get any 'real' stuff in. We spent 2 hours one night, doing break falls.

We were seperated into 4 groups, one group to a corner of the room. The lights went out, the strobe went on, the music went loud(like a night club), and we had kick shields piled up, abot 3 Ft. high, in the middle of the room.
He blew his whistle(the only way he could be heard over the music), and we ran full pelt in an *"X"* pattern, and did the old diving break falls over the pads. Man, talk about adrenal stress!!
This is just one of many things we have done in class, if you want to know more, you'll just have to come visit.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Absolutely correct.  As I just finished saying my experience is public record.  Not proud of it, I don't glory in it, it doesn't bring honor....but I have been there and have/will say so.  What we do is because some bg forced us to do so.  And because I do have the experience I teach in the police academy at S.E.P.S.I., another verifiable source.
> 
> Martial arts as we've discussed has no rule book or universally accepted SOP's...and never will.  FDLE is quite another story altogther.
> 
> :asian: *



What is S.E.P.S.I.?

--Dave


----------



## A.R.K.

Assuming we are talking about an Officer/Instructor....

Simple, call FDLE and ask if they are a State certified Police Instructor.

Simple, call S.E.P.S.I. and ask if they have taught Academy/In-service classes.

Simple, call the Sheriff's Office and speak with a Supervisor that has first hand knowledge of the individual and that individuals background and history.  

Uses-of-force are of course public record.  It is my understanding that anyone coming into the agency, such as the media, has full access to work involved information.  Procedures from out-of-state or out-of-country I am not familar with as it's never come up in regards to me personally.  

FDLE & SEPSI numbers are available on the internet.  Policy prohibits me from posting department numbers on the internet in an open forum.  However email communication seems to be fine.  If anyone wished to speak with a Cpl. or Sgt familar with me, they have but to communicate with me via email.  Of course the trust issue comes into play that Chufeng mentioned in regards to individuals attesting to anything regardless of the arena.  

As other officers have publically vouched for me here, along with my real world experiences it has never come up.  Everyone seems to be satisfied that this information is factual.  If you need any contact then simply email me.  I will not be checking it till Tuesday of next week if you chose to do so, I don't go online on my days off.  

As to the martial arts, same goes via email.  Plenty of excellent, valid organization which are open to practitioners/Instructors of various styles.  Organizations that require all kinds of documentation, verification numbers, personal references etc.  One organization put me under the microscope for two months, asking for details on this and that and teachers and dates and numbers etc.  Understandable because my training has not been restricted to America as I've lived in the Middle East.  

I'm off to start my weekend.  To all stay safe.

:asian:


----------



## A.R.K.

D.Cobb,

My apologies, I forget sometimes to give the whole thing.  It stands for the South Eastern Public Safety Institute in St. Petersburg Fl.  We run all of the Academies out of there i.e. Police, Corrections, EOT, Fire, Probation & Parole etc.  Also in-service classes for Agencies in the surrounding counties.

:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Uses-of-force are of course public record.  It is my understanding that anyone coming into the agency, such as the media, has full access to work involved information.  Procedures from out-of-state or out-of-country I am not familar with as it's never come up in regards to me personally.
> 
> FDLE & SEPSI numbers are available on the internet.  Policy prohibits me from posting department numbers on the internet in an open forum.  However email communication seems to be fine.  If anyone wished to speak with a Cpl. or Sgt familar with me, they have but to communicate with me via email.  Of course the trust issue comes into play that Chufeng mentioned in regards to individuals attesting to anything regardless of the arena.*



Strange, it all seems to come down to your word rather than something someone else could call or contact on their own. You can not even seem to be able to give report numbers, dates and other relevent information that would help the suspicious.

Of course, I would trust a police department that I could verify the phone number of and then call to check on the police report facts given to me. E-mail and messege boards are not very trustworthy. There are many, many cases of which I am aware that people have gotten more than one screen name on a BBS to praise themselves, or gotten friends to do so. I prefer to get a police report number and call a station myself (after confirming in a phone book that the number is real and not a friend of the guy making the claims) before I would trust anyone on the internet.


----------



## chufeng

Both sides...
Regardless of where you fall on this issue, please don't use my comments to bolster your argument...
I am done with this circular argument...
Have been for awhile, now...don't feel like swimming with sharks at the moment...when I do, I'll let you know.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Covering all ranges means that you should be pretty rounded in all ranges of fighting...  That does not mean you have to be the best submission fighter, that defeats the whole purpose, because if you just use submissions, then you aren't well rounded.
> 
> Your teaching methods are unique, since they are your's.  Mine are also unique.  My instructors in the past had a unique teaching style was unique.  It differs for most people. *



Thats all I was really saying but too many people read the posts word for word. Words many times have multiple meanings and it is natural sometimes to read things in a differant light than they were meant. I acknowledged that "all ranges" differ from school to school but that mine includes extensive groundwork.

There are 2 reasons why I stress extensive "ground work". 

One, because it is the best way to totally have a complete "understanding" of both offense and defense on the ground. 

Two, with that level of an understanding of the ground, we should be able to get out of a dangerous ground situation in the street, or at least work to a better position.

Many people claims they do a lot of ground work but in reality, "in my opinion", its not enough. So they are a standup art. Mine is not completely a standup art. There is more standup, that is where my heart is, but I am also a grappler. :asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Military TKD is similiar to hapkido, some boxing, wrestling and jujitsu takedowns and submissions, and many fast kicks and power kicks that are found in muay thai and sport TKD.  Only that high kicks are only practiced for indirect means.
> 
> Military TKD isn't for people in the military, just a name for its militant nature.  Most of the training I went to was full-contact sparring.  The conditioning aspect of it is comparable to that of the British SAS, and 1-2 hours out of the 4 hours training (takes some dedication as you might imagine) were conditioning.  Depends on the day, as it's impossible to go 4 hours everyday.  But there was a lot of character building, especially the mental part.
> 
> And yes, most of the TKD is one that is most common in the mall.  I don't deny it, and I don't look the other way.  It's nearly impossible to find a school that is not watereddown or sport-oriented in the US.  If the local wrestling club (which preps middle schoolers for high school wrestling) gets sued because a kid sprained his ankle, what do you expect out of any MA school where the people are punched in the face? *



Sounds kinda like how Combat Hapkido evolved from traditional Hapkido. I always like Hapkido, it was the second art I ever trained it back in the '70's. I'm not sure if there any traditional school like that around anymore.

And it also sounds like the "name" is justified because it is differant.:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Don,
> 
> Negative.  The art is originally Chinese, but there happens to be an Okinawin organization going be a similar  name.  As problems occurred in years past politically within the Uechi world many off-shoots came into existance.  Many had the view of returning as best as is possible to simply the Pangainoon system.  Therefore some have allegence to Okinawa, home of Uechi ryu, some have allegence to China and some simply no longer communicated with either.  Things beyond my control.  Pangainoon is of alleged Chinese origin.  Why would one need Okinawin permission to pursue training in it?  Since multiple arts are taught in countries other than their alleged origin, why would one need any relation to that country to train?  I've never been to China...but I have learned and taught Chin Na.  I don't think it has upset the Chinese any that I have learned and taught it..do you?
> 
> 
> My real world experience, as I've said, is verifiable as it is public record.  And has not been in disputed by anyone.
> 
> 
> If anyone here wishes to believe that a particular country MUST have their hand involved, MUST have their seal of approval, MUST be paid tribute...then we will respectfully disagree.  If you feel that colors any input I have on any other subject that is entirely up to you.  Either way nothing is changed.
> 
> This dead horse is a die hard :rofl: *


 
You don't have to have been to China to be associated with it.  The organization however, is Chinese, and that means that at least most the people from your training lineage should have originated from China.


> Pangainoon has migrated to many, many countries as has Uechi ryu.  As a result many fine, strong martial artists have been produced from these countries and many without any 'assistance' from outside sources.  If I am at X rank and I teach you well up to Y rank in America and then you move to Russia and continue on educating students in that art...wonderful.  You will either be a competent instructor based on what you were taught or you won't.  Membership in an organization will not change this.  I have received my rank from non=Asian MA's.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I have done so by working very hard over a 30 year period of time.  An organization [any] will not do the work for me, the will not test for me and they certainly won't be there in the dark alley when the bg comes calling.


The problem is, you're trying to be certified in an art that was from X country from an organization from Y country.  Relocated should have no difference on your certification.


> I do belong to organizations for fellowship.  They have scrutinized my credentials and background.  They have recognized my achievements after that scrutiny.  They have not charged me one penny.


And what is the background, your credentials, and what organizations?


> In my personal opinion the Middle East has a stronger 'tradition' than some of the Oriental countries.  It is my wish to associate with them.  They have chosen to recognize me of their own free will.  That has satisfied many people.  If it does not satisfy you then so be it.  Either way nothing is changed.  No one here can argue that rank is not subjective and relative.  No one here can argue that after a certain point, rank is time in grade and to a point honorary.  No one here can argue that the Asians have cornered the market on anything.  No one here can argue that style X can only be taught in certain countries.


At least back the opinion up.  You just say the Middle East has a stronger "tradition".  How so?  Lineage wise?  Spiritually?  What do you mean?  And that isn't the point.  The point is, if you are teaching a Japanese style, you should have some Japanese association.  As simple as that.  There is a new BJJ instructor around here, who also voluntarily taught with me ever since the beginning of March.  He's really young, being around 25.  He learned BJJ in the US.  His late BJJ instructor also learned BJJ in the US...  However, his teacher did indeed have ties with the Gracies.  And they are all authentic, not from some third-rate organization.  It's not about what countries that X art is being taught at.  It is that NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY, THERE SHOULD BE TIES TO THE ORIGINAL COUNTRY.

Last time I heard, there was really no restriction on what countries the seal could be sent.  You can have an authentic seal and certificate in ANY country, so I don't know what you are talking about.

[Edit] Grammatical Error on teaches/taught


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *OMG, have you seen any of them?  They are badasses because they can break plywood boards!  Plus, did you know they memorized 20 forms?  Did you know they can yell real "kiyaahhh" real loud too?  I wouldn't want to tangle with them, even if it was a friendly exhibition sparring match.  They're too deadly.  I would advise you to do the same. *



I was saying that I "personally Know" some fighters that are good and they're primary art is TKD. But I would not say they are top notch. Of course they couldn't touch me. 

Recently I went to pizza parlor and there was a TKD school next door. There was probably 20 kids lined up, all black and brown belts. They were taking turns, one at a time kicking a kicking shield. And one by one each of them  "bounced" off of the kicking shield. But they spinned pretty good.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Thats all I was really saying but too many people read the posts word for word. Words many times have multiple meanings and it is natural sometimes to read things in a differant light than they were meant. I acknowledged that "all ranges" differ from school to school but that mine includes extensive groundwork.
> 
> There are 2 reasons why I stress extensive "ground work".
> 
> One, because it is the best way to totally have a complete "understanding" of both offense and defense on the ground.
> 
> Two, with that level of an understanding of the ground, we should be able to get out of a dangerous ground situation in the street, or at least work to a better position.
> 
> Many people claims they do a lot of ground work but in reality, "in my opinion", its not enough. So they are a standup art. Mine is not completely a standup art. There is more standup, that is where my heart is, but I am also a grappler. :asian: *


Of course every combat art has extensive grappling.  But there is no reason to have it 50/50 or anything like that.  It is up to the person to decide if he wants as much grappling as striking, or etc.  I personally am more of a 75/25 type of guy.  There are people who are 90/10 striking/grappling, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good grapplers.  I have one person who's, I don't know, I won't put a number on him because I have never seen him fight really, but he's been a wrestler all his life.  Yet, when he spars, he's more of a striker.  Doesn't mean he's a bad grappler at all, he just chooses to grapple when he thinks is right.  I don't understand why, he's a much better grappler than he is a striker, but he's still very good.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I was saying that I "personally Know" some fighters that are good and they're primary art is TKD. But I would not say they are top notch. Of course they couldn't touch me.
> 
> Recently I went to pizza parlor anfd there was a TKD school next door. Thee was probably 20 kids lined up, all black and brown belts. They were taking turns, one at a time kicking a kicking shield. And one by one each of them  "bounced" off of the kicking shield. But they spinned pretty good. *


Oh dare you talk bad on the mall people :soapbox:  Don't you realize that they can shoot fireballs while doing a triple spinning hook kick?


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I can't really point you anywhere on the net... Mr. Monea is incredibly modest when it comes to showing what he can do beyond the dojo. I can tell you that he is teaching Kempo, according to the way the old texts show it.
> He tells us that Kempo in its original form also incorporated grappling, and can demonstrate this from kata. our school is very traditional, we maintain all facets of dojo ettiquette, and Senseii is very strict when it comes to enforcing it.
> As I say though, I can't really show you anything. Even when he was contacted by a local MA magazine, he told them that they would be better off interviewing his students rather than himself. His words were something along the lines of, "It would be boring to interview me, as I have no original thoughts of my own, when it comes to martial arts. Everything I say or do has been said or done before."
> Of course I am paraphrasing, but you get the point, right?
> 
> I can tell you that when we train in the grappling side of things, we will do so many basics you think you're going to break before you get any 'real' stuff in. We spent 2 hours one night, doing break falls.
> 
> We were seperated into 4 groups, one group to a corner of the room. The lights went out, the strobe went on, the music went loud(like a night club), and we had kick shields piled up, abot 3 Ft. high, in the middle of the room.
> He blew his whistle(the only way he could be heard over the music), and we ran full pelt in an "X" pattern, and did the old diving break falls over the pads. Man, talk about adrenal stress!!
> This is just one of many things we have done in class, if you want to know more, you'll just have to come visit.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> :asian: *



You're instructor sounds like my brother in law except we only turned the lights out when we meditated ( he wanted to see who would fall asleep, and I did). 

In a way I do teach like him, I break things down quite a bit but I do it kind of in reverse to the way he did it. Instead of breaking it down to death. I teach my guys all the same at first. Then I take them break everything down in detail. An example is I teach Jun Fans version of Chi Sao. I teach it two ways, the Macias Method I was originally taught and I teach it the similar to Wing Chun.

After they start to catch on to the Chi Sao, I break it down into single or double techniques and throw in many new strikes. After they get good at that, then they are ready to learn the clinch.:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Ability over paper ANYDAY.  Seems those who disagree don't have much realworld ability but lots of lineage.  Lineage won't help you in a dark parking lot...realworld experience will.
> 
> snip
> 
> You wanna get down to brass tacs...you whine about lineage and wall candy and crediblility and down play the realworld ability.  Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing.  Let me repeat that again in case you missed it the first time...Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing.  Lineage is fine, wall candy is fine, perfect kata is fine, drills are fine, oriental organizations are fine...but unless you've used it in combat to protect yourself or another....its only a hobby.  That includes instructors who have never actually been in harms way.  Oh, yeah they can teach...from others experiences...but not their OWN experiences.
> 
> snip
> 
> So Robert, I don't care about my wall candy...nobody else here cares about my wall candy...why are you so obsessed with it?*



I have to admit to being a little confused by the attitude you state above, and this quote I found on your web site,



> He is recognized as the Founder of the American Realistic Karate/Close Quarter Defensive Tactics system with the title of Senior Master Instructor.
> 
> This recognition comes from the USADR, KYHA, USAI, AKOI, WOMA, IMAF, ICMAUF, WAKO, IIORK, WGKF, MAA-I and WHOS after extensive critique and peer review from recognized Grandmasters and Sokes from around the world.



So, you state the groups you beloing to as some sort of qualifier on your web site, but here you seem to be saying that none of that matters???

This is not to mention that at least one of the orginizations listed on your web site do not exist anymore- which shows that they themselves are hardly very reliable sources for the "extensive critique and peer review" you claim.

I am also rather mystified by this quote,



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _I could see you having a complaint if every other post from me was 'oh I'm so great cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'Everyone bow to me cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'oh, it's been 5 minutes...did I mention I'm an 8th Dan' or if I had a string of mcdojos and no experienc and I was scamming people and laughing all the way to the bank.  but your the only one going on about it.  Hardly ANYONE here would even know my ranks if you weren't whining about them.   I don't have it in my profile...*I don't have it on my website*....I keep all my wall candy in a box in my closet...



As I said, I looked at your web site and found  references to the fact that you are an eight dan. Anyone who wishes to can check your web site for themselves and see if it is still there. Check here to see.  But as I post,  your web site's section on the orginization you created makes this mention of your eighth dan. 



> Grandmaster-Founder David Schultz, Ph.D.
> A.R.K./CQDT Senior Master Instructor
> *8th Dan Pangai-noon*
> Honorary7th Dan Agni Kempo
> 5th Dan Shuri Te



And yet in the quote above you claim that you do not talk about it and do not even list it on your web site. Can you imagine how confused I am by how I can see you say you do not list your ranks or "wall candy", only to find out that is not the case _with my own eyes????_


----------



## RyuShiKan

Folks this thread has NEVER   been about ZDW, a.k.a. MRJ, a.k.a. ARK, a.k.a. Dave Schultz. 
This thread was meant for bogus claims in  GENERAL   and nobody specifically. 
So lets keep the subject matter general instead of person/people specific. The ZDW, a.k.a. MRJ, a.k.a. ARK, a.k.a. Dave Schultz issue is a dead issue. It has gone and will continue to go nowhere. 



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other. *



I have never have nor will I ever consider you any sort of "threat".


----------



## RyuShiKan

Don, 

One thing you will notice is that bogus claims can be easily taken off websites and often are when proven to be fraudulent.  
Case in point:
2 years ago I noticed a website that had my friends photo on it (Jake from the NFL, long time Tokyo resident....maybe you have heard of him.). The website I saw had my friend Jake in a group photo and the caption read A group photo at XXXX dojo after extensive training.
I showed my friend Jake the URL and he said that guy was lying, and that the owner of that site had only trained 1 day at the dojo and then hounded the teacher for dan rank but was denied.
I asked the owner of the site about it and he said he in fact had done extensive training and was a senior member in that dojo blah, blah, blah.
Jake informed me that person was lying and the Jake had translated from J/E & E/J during the whole training session and the subsequent faxes begging for dan rank afterwards. 
Long story short.I put what I had found on E-Budo and this guy was into some really bogus stuff and claimed 5th dan or above in about every rank known to man.
Anyway, after a few emails made by myself and a few others the reference to extensive training was removed.

_Bogus is as bogus does._
Forrest Gump?


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Yeah, you must have LOADS of money to bribe an organization in Japan.  It's not so simple... *




Heck no..the Kokusai Budoin (International Budo Federation) is one of the most infamous. I think you can get hooked up for about $200~$300 bucks.

The thing is most MA people in Japan with more than one brain cell can recognize these as total bogus.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *I have to admit to being a little confused by the attitude you state above, and this quote I found on your web site,
> 
> 
> 
> So, you state the groups you beloing to as some sort of qualifier on your web site, but here you seem to be saying that none of that matters???
> 
> This is not to mention that at least one of the orginizations listed on your web site do not exist anymore- which shows that they themselves are hardly very reliable sources for the "extensive critique and peer review" you claim.
> 
> I am also rather mystified by this quote,
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I looked at your web site and found  references to the fact that you are an eight dan. Anyone who wishes to can check your web site for themselves and see if it is still there. Check here to see.  But as I post,  your web site's section on the orginization you created makes this mention of your eighth dan.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet in the quote above you claim that you do not talk about it and do not even list it on your web site. Can you imagine how confused I am by how I can see you say you do not list your ranks or "wall candy", only to find out that is not the case with my own eyes???? *




Don, 

Call me a skeptical S.O.B. but I question a lot of stuff I read on the Internet..even peoples names. In fact I think we had one such problem here before.
About the only thing or people I can actually verify they are who they say from this BBs is Yiliquan1 and you since I have met both of you. BTW, when is the next "chubliner's" meeting?


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *BTW, when is the next "chubliner's" meeting? *



Whenever my beloved dictator Tony says it is, I will try to be there. Barring, of course, the wrath of "The mountain god." (_Yama no Kami no ikari._ ) If that reference is beyond you, ask an older Japanese.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *DAC,
> 
> See the horse?
> 
> Run horse, run.
> 
> See the horse fall?
> 
> Get up horse, get up!
> 
> See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.
> 
> See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?
> 
> Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!
> 
> But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...
> 
> 
> I'm not the one who started this thread and I was only giving my opinion wich I believe I'm still entitled to, Maybe I should do what everyone else does and not even stick to the topic.
> 
> I'm not refering back to past battles I'm just giving my opinion on this thread topic.*


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Heck no..the Kokusai Budoin (International Budo Federation) is one of the most infamous. I think you can get hooked up for about $200~$300 bucks.
> 
> The thing is most MA people in Japan with more than one brain cell can recognize these as total bogus. *


Let me clarify...  The REAL organization, the standard.

If someone walks in to Kukkiwon, asking for dan rank, everyone will die of laughter.


----------



## SteelShadow

What is the point of disscuions like this?I can understand disaproving with someone or being sceptical about them.Heck i can even understand down right disagreeing with someone.
But what is the point to going over and over it.I mean in reality yes you get to exspress your oppion and yes you might even exspose someone or at least make them look bad.But if they have thier heart set on teaching or claiming something this board or any other isnt going to cahnge that.
If you disagree thats fine state you do and move on Why dwell on it for post or thread after thread.Not only does it get old it after awhile your once substantiated oppion just beggins to look like a grudge or someone just trying to degrade another person.There are those that simply enjoy degrading or trying to make others look bad.And there are those that realy are just passionate about what they know or believe.But theres a fine line between the two that if not approached carefully cant be seen wich side a person stands on.Of course exspress you ditrust or disagreement with someone thats what these boards are for but dont let it draw you to the point where you beggin to look  arogant or self appealing by discrediting everything  someone says on the net.
Ther is such a thing as being to susppcious.
If you have questions by all means ask.That is your right but understand it is also the person being questioneds right to not answer.Does that make it right maybe not but just because someone is asked dosnt mean they have to answer.
I guess all im saying is other than enjoyment of persecution or just wanting to make yourself look like some all knowing scholar.
What point is there to dragging something along after you have posted your oppion or your disaprovment.If they didnt answer them in a satisfying way the first time chances are they arnt going to.Because after the initial posts you automaticaly start looking for other things to disagree with its human nature if you dont like something or disagree with something you automaticaly look for flaws .Post your oppion wether good or bad ask the questions you need to ask but it is pointless to borrow a phrase from another thread to beat a dead horse.And the jokey that does only comes off looking like a  Brute.....
Just my thoughts.......


----------



## arnisador

Thanks to all those who have endeavoured to keep this discussion _general_ rather than about specific individuals. Everyone, please keep to that in this thread and take individual matters to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by chufeng
> DAC,
> 
> See the horse?
> 
> Run horse, run.
> 
> See the horse fall?
> 
> Get up horse, get up!
> 
> See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.
> 
> See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?
> 
> Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!
> 
> But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...
> 
> 
> I'm not the one who started this thread and I was only giving my opinion wich I believe I'm still entitled to, Maybe I should do what everyone else does and not even stick to the topic.
> 
> I'm not refering back to past battles I'm just giving my opinion on this thread topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You have quoted Chufeng from a thread  which involved your teacher that has been closed if I am not mistaken. As has been said several times this thread is not on anyone specific but a GENERAL  perspective.
> So far most have caught on to that concept.*


----------



## chufeng

Actually, it was on page three of this thread...
After rereading DAC's post (the one that I responded to, initially) I may have misunderstood his intent...
I thought he was going for another personal attack...but now that he's responded, I can see where he was headed with it.

My intent was to head off another rehash of the ZDW story...that truly is a dead horse...

Most of the comments made, so far, have been general in nature.
The few comments that are specific have at least not spun out of control...

I think it is up to the one making claims, though, to provide proof of the claim...as Forrest Gump would say, "...and that's all I'm gonna say about that."

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Actually, it was on page three of this thread... *




Thanks for the correction.
To be honest I have read so much of that topic over the last couple of weeks I cant remember which thread is which anymore.




> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *
> I think it is up to the one making claims, though, to provide proof of the claim...as Forrest Gump would say, "...and that's all I'm gonna say about that."
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *




I agree.


----------



## Touch Of Death

:soapbox: Mr Tanaka,
 I believe the word is piqued.


----------



## DAC..florida

I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.


EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.

I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.

I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.


My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it.


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.*



For that matter, given the arguments you and others have advanced, there will never be a sufficient level of documentation in real life, much less via the internet.

At some point, you absolutely must break down and assume that some source at some point is authoritative.

The argument, as I have seen it to be, is less accepting a particular form of proof as finally authoritative than it is supporting and substantiating claims of rank(s) claimed.



> *EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.*



You claim 10th dan in kung fu.  First of all, that would send up red flags, since CMA don't use "dan/kyu" gradings...  But, taking your example in the spirit I think you meant it, how do you prove it?

If you claim such a lofty grade in a well known style, then checking with the organization(s) that govern that style would be the first step.  If you did not belong to those organizations (for whatever reason - I'm not going to argue the validity of a person promoting you outside the auspices of organizational authorization; that is an entirely separate argument dealing with the legitimacy of a teacher's right and ability to teach), then going to the person who promoted you would be the next step.  Worrying about "offending" them would be a terribly convenient excuse for not providing their names...  Somehow, I suspect that if a teacher's student's credibility were questioned, that teacher would want to support that student by providing whatever substantiation was required.  When a teacher starts trying to become "Uber-Asian," as many non-Asians try to do when they buy into their own hype as so-called "masters," and says he/she would be "offended" by supporting your credibility, I would start calling into question the credibility of that teacher!  It is one thing to avoid the spotlight, another thing to scurry back into the shadows like a cockroach...



> *I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.*



There seems to be the potential for a semantic argument here.  Legitimate and authentic are two different things.  I could produce, in correct Chinese characters, a document proclaiming my status as Master of Time, Space and Dimension.  I could even produce a stamp (_hanko_, not sure of the Chinese term for it) that would appear authentic.  But this document, for its authentic appearance, would not be legitimate.  Likewise, I have seen some legitimate certificates that looked a little too mass produced, initially calling into question its authenticity.

How could you prove documents to be legitimate?  The same way you would check into things as I listed above.  The same people would be called or contacted.  If they were unable to be contacted for whatever reason, checking the linguistic reliability of the certificate would lend an air of legitimacy to the document.  If the document appears to be an original, with original handwriting on it, then it would for all intents and purposes appear to be legitimate...  This is when the suspension of disbelief must come into play - at some point you have to trust the source.



> *I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.*



See my above comments about Uber-Asian teachers...  If we are approaching this entire subject professionally, we *must* ask ourselves at what point we dispose of antiquated cultural baggage (i.e. "offending" a teacher, asking "permission" to give his/her name, etc.) in order to support the overall legitimacy of the MA community at large.  In older times, such things were common but culturally linked.  We are in a cross-cultural society where in any given MA school, you can find people of all races, religions, national origins, religious backgrounds, etc.  We are no longer operating within the confines of cultural taboos which limit who is taught what by whom.  We cannot pick and choose what rules we live and train by - if we demand that someone provide proof, or we make claims that may be questioned, then we must be prepared to provide proof ourselves and question others.  In this way, we all police our own backgrounds as well as existing in a group where ones background could be queried at any time.  Failing to provide proof that is universally accepted would result in immediate perception as holding questionable credentials.

If this were any other profession governed by requirements for certification and training that has a direct impact on public safety (i.e. doctors, attorneys, policemen, firemen, EMTs, nurses, etc.), we wouldn't even be having this conversation...



> *I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.*



If you claim a 10th dan in Black Tiger Kung Fu, and I go to one of the 304,000 organizations that teach it, and I am able to show that you do in fact practice such an art, and your background in training and ranking can be verified through one of those 304,000 organizations, then you are what you claim.  If you claim a lofty grade in a well known and widely practiced art, but don't belong to an organization, and are able to provide documentation (verbal or otherwise) of training and grading, no problem.  Some folks don't like organizations.  Fine.

As for "most don't test for the rank that you are being recognized at" I am unclear on the meaning of your response.  An organization that maintains the standards of its students by imposing grading requirements and standards of performance that must be met prior to the issuance of grading would therefore issue ranks in its own style.  Organizations that recognize you as a particular grade in a style you have never trained in should be avoided like the plague.  They diminish us all when those within our ranks accepts such empty titles and grades.  Honorary grades are given as a token of gratitude for some deed.  Fine.  But "recognizing" me as a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep when I have only ever studied Yiliiquan, but because you think my skill is equivalent to that of a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep, is total crap.  Trying to pass such "recognitions" off as legitimate is nothing more than fraud aimed at taking advantage of an unsuspecting and ignorant public...  



> *My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it. *



In a perfect world, that should be enough.  It is for me, as well.  The students I have had were instructed not to refer to me in any honorific form, bereft of the use of any martial titles.   I earned their respect as a person, then a martial artist, and later as a teacher, and they called me the things they called me based on that alone, not on my lineage or documentation.  However, we live in a smaller world than we once did, and in order to protect ourselves, our students, and the public at large, we need to be able to do more than be satisfied with our perfect little backyard dojos...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.*



As I said before, if you do not wish to have your teacher bothered, you should not put him in a position where he could be bothered by claiming a rank or association. Once you do, the matter of proof comes up and you either back up your claims, or you refuse and everyone starts to laugh at you.

You solve the entire matter by truely trying to stand on your own abilities, rather than claiming rank or something and when asked for proof start making excuses as to why you do not have to because "only ability matters." Well, if that is so, why bother mentioning anything like rank, associations, years in training, etc in the first place? This type of behavior does give other people the chance to laugh at the people making excuses, but it really is kind of pitiful to see.

Again, if you do not want to go to the trouble of having to prove something, don't put yourself in a postion where you will be asked for proof by making claims. You may note that some people never mention their rank, who they trained under, or how long they have trained. They either do not want to try to impress others, or feel that their words alone carry the wisdom that others can see instead of relying on "wall candy" for the same effect.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> ....I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet....



If you belong to some bogus organizations that your drinking buddies made up, then it is all a farce.

If you belong to recognized organizations such as Kukkiwon or JKA or ITF, for examples, then post your certificate number, and someone can call the HQ where the HQ staffs can verify if you are what you claim to be.

I am surprised that your 8th dan master does not know this.  Such a high degree is normally awarded to people who are elderstatesmen of the art.   There are millions of whitebelt nobodies who are well aware of this minor detail.    You would think that someone with an 8th dan would have KNOWN this tiny bit of administrative detail.


----------



## A.R.K.

Well I found a brief opportunity to pop in on my day off.   

I would simply say this, I no longer teach a specific style/system originating from somewhere else.  Haven't for quite some time as I have focused my energy on developing my system based on my total knowlegde, experience and real world altercations.

I have listed the associations that I fellowship with, anyone may feel free to contact the organization head in regards to their opinion of me.  Anyone is welcome to contact FDLE or my agency in regards to my status, reputation, knowledge, ability etc.  There is no óne'report number as I have been involved in numerous altecations.  No becuase I look for trouble, quite the opposite actually...I don't like to fight.  But for 12 years I have worked in the very worse places in our maximum security facility...as have many others.  sometimes things happen beyond our control.  But all are public record for any who would like to know specific details.  I would prefer to be known fo the times where I was able to avoid using force.  

Many seem satisfied with my credential, background and the way in general I post.  Anyone needing further confirmation may contact any that they wish.  If they are satisfied at this point then wonderful.  If not, they may consider me as they wish.  No one can satisfy everyone all the time.  Either way, the only real thinng is whether or not I'm qualified to teach.  Only personal knoweldge or firsthand conversation with my students will ultimately answer that.  Most know that I, for the most part, teach for free.  And my assistants do teach out of desire rather than for $ compensation.  We have survived many realworld altercations as have our students based on what we've taught them.  To me that is the real test.  That is my humble opinion.  As Chufeng mentioned earlier...at some point trust needs to enter in.  Either I have earned it or I have not base on who is asked.  

I take Robert at his word as I believe his word is solid.  Sice this issue was originally between us, it should rest with us.  Anyone else, on either side, should let it rest as well and it seems most have.  That way we can all post on other topics and perhaps benefit from each other's words.  

In my opinion...everyone here has offered much.  And I look forward to that continuing unhindered.  

Peace to us all
:asian:


----------



## KennethKu

This is not between YOU and RyuShiKan. This is between all of us and PEOPLE who make unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

Please do not bring up your credential and organizations you belong to or don't belong to. Most of us are tired of beating on the dead horse and dancing in circle.  No, we are not satisfied with your answers nor explainations. We just DON"T GIVE A RAT *** anymore. We have a rather clear idea already.  And many of us have already spelled it out, loud and clear.  If you want to move on, then please don't bring up the cow chips again and again trying to make a banquet out of them.  Since you have repeatedly claim that you don't care what people think of your qualification and that you can never convince people who don't think much of you, then would you please heed your own words and stop trying?  May be then,  we can all move on.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *    Anyone else, on either side, should let it rest as well and it seems most have. *



Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you dont care what others think.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you dont care what others think. *


most of the time, I couldn't keep up with the names


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *most of the time, I couldn't keep up with the names *



Maybe we need to issue a set of playing cards like they have for the ex-Iraqi leaders.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *For that matter, given the arguments you and others have advanced, there will never be a sufficient level of documentation in real life, much less via the internet.
> 
> At some point, you absolutely must break down and assume that some source at some point is authoritative.
> 
> The argument, as I have seen it to be, is less accepting a particular form of proof as finally authoritative than it is supporting and substantiating claims of rank(s) claimed.
> 
> 
> 
> You claim 10th dan in kung fu.  First of all, that would send up red flags, since CMA don't use "dan/kyu" gradings...  But, taking your example in the spirit I think you meant it, how do you prove it?
> 
> If you claim such a lofty grade in a well known style, then checking with the organization(s) that govern that style would be the first step.  If you did not belong to those organizations (for whatever reason - I'm not going to argue the validity of a person promoting you outside the auspices of organizational authorization; that is an entirely separate argument dealing with the legitimacy of a teacher's right and ability to teach), then going to the person who promoted you would be the next step.  Worrying about "offending" them would be a terribly convenient excuse for not providing their names...  Somehow, I suspect that if a teacher's student's credibility were questioned, that teacher would want to support that student by providing whatever substantiation was required.  When a teacher starts trying to become "Uber-Asian," as many non-Asians try to do when they buy into their own hype as so-called "masters," and says he/she would be "offended" by supporting your credibility, I would start calling into question the credibility of that teacher!  It is one thing to avoid the spotlight, another thing to scurry back into the shadows like a cockroach...
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be the potential for a semantic argument here.  Legitimate and authentic are two different things.  I could produce, in correct Chinese characters, a document proclaiming my status as Master of Time, Space and Dimension.  I could even produce a stamp (hanko, not sure of the Chinese term for it) that would appear authentic.  But this document, for its authentic appearance, would not be legitimate.  Likewise, I have seen some legitimate certificates that looked a little too mass produced, initially calling into question its authenticity.
> 
> How could you prove documents to be legitimate?  The same way you would check into things as I listed above.  The same people would be called or contacted.  If they were unable to be contacted for whatever reason, checking the linguistic reliability of the certificate would lend an air of legitimacy to the document.  If the document appears to be an original, with original handwriting on it, then it would for all intents and purposes appear to be legitimate...  This is when the suspension of disbelief must come into play - at some point you have to trust the source.
> 
> 
> 
> See my above comments about Uber-Asian teachers...  If we are approaching this entire subject professionally, we must ask ourselves at what point we dispose of antiquated cultural baggage (i.e. "offending" a teacher, asking "permission" to give his/her name, etc.) in order to support the overall legitimacy of the MA community at large.  In older times, such things were common but culturally linked.  We are in a cross-cultural society where in any given MA school, you can find people of all races, religions, national origins, religious backgrounds, etc.  We are no longer operating within the confines of cultural taboos which limit who is taught what by whom.  We cannot pick and choose what rules we live and train by - if we demand that someone provide proof, or we make claims that may be questioned, then we must be prepared to provide proof ourselves and question others.  In this way, we all police our own backgrounds as well as existing in a group where ones background could be queried at any time.  Failing to provide proof that is universally accepted would result in immediate perception as holding questionable credentials.
> 
> If this were any other profession governed by requirements for certification and training that has a direct impact on public safety (i.e. doctors, attorneys, policemen, firemen, EMTs, nurses, etc.), we wouldn't even be having this conversation...
> 
> 
> 
> If you claim a 10th dan in Black Tiger Kung Fu, and I go to one of the 304,000 organizations that teach it, and I am able to show that you do in fact practice such an art, and your background in training and ranking can be verified through one of those 304,000 organizations, then you are what you claim.  If you claim a lofty grade in a well known and widely practiced art, but don't belong to an organization, and are able to provide documentation (verbal or otherwise) of training and grading, no problem.  Some folks don't like organizations.  Fine.
> 
> As for "most don't test for the rank that you are being recognized at" I am unclear on the meaning of your response.  An organization that maintains the standards of its students by imposing grading requirements and standards of performance that must be met prior to the issuance of grading would therefore issue ranks in its own style.  Organizations that recognize you as a particular grade in a style you have never trained in should be avoided like the plague.  They diminish us all when those within our ranks accepts such empty titles and grades.  Honorary grades are given as a token of gratitude for some deed.  Fine.  But "recognizing" me as a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep when I have only ever studied Yiliiquan, but because you think my skill is equivalent to that of a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep, is total crap.  Trying to pass such "recognitions" off as legitimate is nothing more than fraud aimed at taking advantage of an unsuspecting and ignorant public...
> 
> 
> 
> In a perfect world, that should be enough.  It is for me, as well.  The students I have had were instructed not to refer to me in any honorific form, bereft of the use of any martial titles.   I earned their respect as a person, then a martial artist, and later as a teacher, and they called me the things they called me based on that alone, not on my lineage or documentation.  However, we live in a smaller world than we once did, and in order to protect ourselves, our students, and the public at large, we need to be able to do more than be satisfied with our perfect little backyard dojos...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *




Why dont you tell us how you really feel? 

I'm not saying it is impossible but you cant prove somthing to someone who refuses to believe you, If I did have a 10th degree black belt no matter how I tried to prove it to some  there would always be faults in my proof thats my point, and if you knew that this was thier attitude than why even bother.

Your points above were well said and I respect your opinions however as I mentioned above trying to prove you rank, abillity,credentials,credabillity or teaching skills to someone who has never met you and wont believe you no matter what is said is a waste of time.

As you and anyone else here who has looked at my profile knows I have posted no rank, nor will I because I do not feel it is necessary to do so in order to participate in this forum!

 :asian:


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *As I said before, if you do not wish to have your teacher bothered, you should not put him in a position where he could be bothered by claiming a rank or association. Once you do, the matter of proof comes up and you either back up your claims, or you refuse and everyone starts to laugh at you.
> 
> You solve the entire matter by truely trying to stand on your own abilities, rather than claiming rank or something and when asked for proof start making excuses as to why you do not have to because "only ability matters." Well, if that is so, why bother mentioning anything like rank, associations, years in training, etc in the first place? This type of behavior does give other people the chance to laugh at the people making excuses, but it really is kind of pitiful to see.
> 
> Again, if you do not want to go to the trouble of having to prove something, don't put yourself in a postion where you will be asked for proof by making claims. You may note that some people never mention their rank, who they trained under, or how long they have trained. They either do not want to try to impress others, or feel that their words alone carry the wisdom that others can see instead of relying on "wall candy" for the same effect. *




I have never claimed any rank in this forum!

I think your missing my point, If I did and even gave the proof, to some people that wouldnt be good enough. so why even bother giving the proof to begin with.

I do agree that if you claim nothing you would never be challenged, there are a few people that have made claims that I thought were questionable, but I dont see the need to challenge them its not hurting me and most claims would be hard to prove or disprove so why even bother. I wont judge a persons claims or abillitys without having met them or at least knowing someone who has met them( just me i guess ).

 :asian:


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *This is not between YOU and RyuShiKan. This is between all of us and PEOPLE who make unsubstantiated claims on the internet.
> 
> Please do not bring up your credential and organizations you belong to or don't belong to. Most of us are tired of beating on the dead horse and dancing in circle.  No, we are not satisfied with your answers nor explainations. We just DON"T GIVE A RAT *** anymore. We have a rather clear idea already.  And many of us have already spelled it out, loud and clear.  If you want to move on, then please don't bring up the cow chips again and again trying to make a banquet out of them.  Since you have repeatedly claim that you don't care what people think of your qualification and that you can never convince people who don't think much of you, then would you please heed your own words and stop trying?  May be then,  we can all move on. *




If you want to move on than do it stop posting on this subject, there was no reson for this above quote for someone who wants to move on!

As far as what my instructor knows or doesnt know isnt the issue, you to have ignored my point. (maybe your ego got in the way not sure but let me clarify it for you AGAIN) If I were to claim high rank in any style it wouldnt matter what I post certain people would chose not to beleive me, cant please everyone I guess. My instructor David Schultz (A.R.K.) has already posted proof but I guess the DONG KOO YUDO KWON doesnt count because its not in Okinawa. I wonder if anyone even bothered to check it out or if they just ignored it and continued to bash.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you dont care what others think. *





RSK,  

I am only playing defence I am not the who continues this issue!
Maybe I should take my instructors advise and ignore the children but its so much fun to watch them make themselves look so foolish, so I think I'll continue to play the defence.


I have a question for you, what did all of you do before A.R.K. joined whatever it was it must have been boring. :rofl: :rofl: 




LMAO, 

dac..florida


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have a question for you, what did all of you do before A.R.K. joined whatever it was it must have been boring. :rofl: :rofl: *



If you are playing "defense," then there is no need to bait anyone, is there...? 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If you are playing "defense," then there is no need to bait anyone, is there...?
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



I am honestly not trying to insult or bait anyone just trying to find the humor in the scituation.:asian: 

I'm sorry if you didnt find it funny.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Matt Stone

Nope, not funny.  It appeared to be nothing more than a lightly veiled attempt at baiting RyuShiKan and others to engage in more argument over dead issues.

If you are playing "defense," then stick to reacting to the actions of others when they "attack" you or your teacher.  For the rest of the time, I'd recommend staying far away from anything that could be implied to be remotely close to smelling like it deals with that other thread...  That way it can die out and we can all move on.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Nope, not funny.  It appeared to be nothing more than a lightly veiled attempt at baiting RyuShiKan and others to engage in more argument over dead issues.
> 
> If you are playing "defense," then stick to reacting to the actions of others when they "attack" you or your teacher.  For the rest of the time, I'd recommend staying far away from anything that could be implied to be remotely close to smelling like it deals with that other thread...  That way it can die out and we can all move on.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *




I'm sorry you misunderstood my meaning maybe it did come off wrong.

I will however take your advise due to the fact that I to would like to move on!!
 :asian:


----------



## chufeng

Dead frickin' horse...

...strange sense of humor...I did not see anything funny...
If your teacher thinks we are children, then your post is even LESS funny...

out

chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Nope, not funny.  It appeared to be nothing more than a lightly veiled attempt at baiting RyuShiKan and others to engage in more argument over dead issues.
> *




Have no fear.I smelled the bait and it was about as pungent as that dead horse that has been lying around here. I also found his wit to be about as sharp as a basketball.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have never claimed any rank in this forum!
> 
> I think your missing my point, If I did and even gave the proof, to some people that wouldnt be good enough. so why even bother giving the proof to begin with.*



Well, your  teacher _did_ claim rank and the last time I checked his web site, (by clicking on the "WWW" button on your posts) those claims were still there along with those of his senior students.

And the aurgument you use, about how _some_ people will never accept proof, so why bother give it to _anyone_ kind of sets of alarms in my mind. As I said before, there are some people that will look at proof and still deny it. You are not trying to prove things to those people. You are trying to prove things to people who are not involved so they can check for themselves.

If someone makes a claim, and another person states that the proof is untrue, then from an observers standpoint it is hard to tell who is telling the truth. But if they can look up the proof themselves, then they know who to believe. However, when a person makes claims about having rank, and then refuses to back up that story, the person like me who has no stake in the matter naturally assumes that the person trying to make the claims is an incompetent fraud. Especially after making a claim that is proven false they then start to say that the claim was not important anyways.


----------



## KennethKu

Of course, one *does not have to * give proof. The only consequence is, NO ONE BELIEVES ANY OF YOUR CRAP.  So, if you don't feel like giving proof, fine with us. That just tells us ALL WE NEED TO KNOW.  Quite simple, wouldn't you say?


----------



## RyuShiKan

The following are some photos of how to spot fake dan certificates from real ones.


Notice the 2 types of hanko. The real one is more elaborate and therefore more difficult for scumbags to forge.the fake one I can buy at almost any stationary shop in Japan and has been mass produced by the 1,000s.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Next, dan certificates from shodan up are never done on a word processor...as this one is...kyu ranks are sometimes mass produced but not dan ranks. They are hand written by the instructor. 
(Note the poor hand writing for the dan grade and rank. )


----------



## RyuShiKan

If anyone has any certificatestheirs or other peoples that they would like me to look at you can post them here or send them to me privately. Privacy will be respected.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have never claimed any rank in this forum!
> *



Although you didn't post it here on this BBs isnt this your bio from Grandmaster Schultz website?

Master David Craine 
Board of Directors International League of Martial Arts Masters
Vice President Gulf Coast Martial Artists Guild
A.R.K./CQDT Master Instructor
6th Dan Tae Kwon Do


and with this caption under the photo.

GM Schultz inducting Master Craine into the League


----------



## RyuShiKan

.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *If you want to move on than do it stop posting on this subject, there was no reson for this above quote for someone who wants to move on!
> 
> As far as what my instructor knows or doesnt know isnt the issue, you to have ignored my point. (maybe your ego got in the way not sure but let me clarify it for you AGAIN) If I were to claim high rank in any style it wouldnt matter what I post certain people would chose not to beleive me, cant please everyone I guess. My instructor David Schultz (A.R.K.) has already posted proof but I guess the DONG KOO YUDO KWON doesnt count because its not in Okinawa. I wonder if anyone even bothered to check it out or if they just ignored it and continued to bash. *


Dong Koo Yudo Kwon...  I have never heard of this organization.  I'm Korean, and the words do sound Korean, although they really don't make sense in how they are used, but maybe it's just a name for their organization or archaic (before 1600s)?

I really have no clue on your organization.  I'm confused, care to enlighten me?  The name Zhao Dei Whei or whatever in the beginning, sounded Mandarin or Catonese.  Then mya ryu jitsu is obviously Japanese.  Then you have some remote Korean organization promoting it?  Can anyone clarify for me what this is?


----------



## RyuShiKan

MartialArtist, 

You are Korean?
_anyohashimunika_
(romanized Korean)



> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * The name Zhao Dei Whei or whatever in the beginning, sounded Mandarin or Catonese. *



That was Dave Shultzs name Chinese-efied into what would seemed to have been Mandarin.





> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * Then mya ryu jitsu is obviously Japanese. *



Actually its not.
Its a couple of Japanese-esque words stuck together that mean nothing.


----------



## MartialArtist

I have another question...

I remember something in the past where Mr. Schultz said he was not really interested in the Korean arts, he was having a great time with what he already does and I totally understand that.  But then why are you a representative of the organization?  I went to your website, and ARK is your own special blend of close quarters combat karate, am I right?  Well, shouldn't you belong to an organization that kinda pertains to that instead of the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization?  And in Korea, there is no such thing as the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization.  There might be some people in Korea that belong to the organization, but it is not based out of Korea, yet it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization.  Actually, according to its website, it is located in Florida by a guy of Jack Stern.  And why does he use a Japanese term, and some washed out non-Korean characters as his head?




I understand that yudo is judo which is Japanese, but it calls itself the * Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization*.  Yudo, although a Japanese art, is a Korean term.  Hapkido is a Korean art.  There is "Korean" in the title.  Yet nothing there is remotely Korean.  The logo does look like a that of an ITF patch that I've seen.  The only thing Korean I've seen is the whole paragraph right under his logo on his dobuk, which is too small to read but obviously Korean.  And, what it looks like to be a WTF patch, but too distant to see.

I think the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization would do better if it renamed it to a name that suited the organization better.  Obviously, Stern has very little yudo and hapkido experience, even on his website, but does seem to have more Japanese references.  Just a suggestion.


----------



## Matt Stone

I did a search on Google for Dong Koo Yudo Kwon.  

Nothing.

I did another search on Google for Dong Koo Yudo Kwan.

Nearly nothing.

All that came up were hits for that title used in the biographies of tons of folks who are also members of Soke or Grandmaster organizations, and who all seem to possess multiple high grade rankings...

It is based in South Korea, and seems (at first glance) to be less than reputable...

This is an example of the bios I found:

Doctor of Martial Science

American College of Martial Science of The University of Indiana, Ph.D (honorary)-Martial Arts Philosophy.

Lifetime Member, International Combat Martial Arts Doctors and Scientists Union ICMAUA

Registered TKD Dan Holder with the Kukkiwon-Seoul, Korea

8th Dan Recognition & Registration, World Soke Head Council Headquarters, Kobe, Japan

8th Dan Dong-Koo Yudo Kwan, (KYA) - Seoul, Korea

8th Dan Ildokwan, World Ildokwan Federation-UK

8th Dan Taekwondo, Independedent Martial Arts Federation-USA (IMAF)

8th Dan Taekwondo, White Dragon Federation-Denmark

8th Dan Founder of Taeken-Jitsu, World Jug-Tai Head Founders Society- Arta, Greece

8th Dan Taeken-Jitsu, Drougas World Traditional Martial Arts-Greece

8th Dan Founder of Taeken-Jitsu, International Assembly of Sokeship, Founders & Headmasters

8th Dan Taeken-Jitsu, Founder, Head Instructor, Head Examiner, International Combat Martial Arts Founders Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Sung Ja Do (honorary), International Sung Ja Do Assn.-USA

8th Dan Taekwondo, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Ildokwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Ildokwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Korean Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Dong-Koo Yudo Kwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Korean Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

7th Dan Karate-Do (honorary), United Martial Arts Federation.

7th Dan Karate-Do, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Karate Do Union ICMAUA.

4th Dan Jiu-Jitsu, The Black Arts Society (Canada) & IMAF

4th Dan Unarmed Military Combat, The Black Arts Society (Canada) & IMAF

4th Dan Unarmed Military Combat, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Military Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

4th Dan Tsung Chen Do, The Tsung Chen Do Assn.-USA

4th Dan Tsung Chen Do, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

4th Dan Jiu-Jitsu, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Jujitsu Union ICMAUA

3rd Dan Moo Duk Kwan, The Korea TKD Moo Duk Hae-Seoul, Korea

3rd Dan Dragon Kenpo Karate, Dragon Kenpo Karate Assn.(USA) & IMAF

3rd Dan Dragon Kenpo Karate, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Kenpo Union ICMAUA

3rd Dan Combat Taekwondo, The United States Combat Martial Arts Assn.

3rd Dan Combat Taekwondo, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

3rd Dan Moo Duk Kwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

1st Dan Hapkido, World Chontu Tae-Do Hapkido Fed. (Canada) & IMAF

1st Dan Hapkido, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Hapkido Union ICMAUA

OTHER HONORS and POSITIONS:

Board of Directors, WWMAHOF & IMAF

Member of The World Ildokwan Federation Technical Advisory Council

Inducted into the World-Wide Martial Arts Hall of Fame (WWMAHOF)

Inducted into the Canada International Martial Arts Society Hall of Fame 

Inducted into the World Il-Do-Kwan Federation International Hall of Fame -"Presidential Award for Dedicated Leadership'

Inducted into the International Combat Martial Arts Hall of Fame ICMAUA

Inducted into the International Combat Martial Arts Encyclopedia ICMAUA

Canada International Martial Arts Society-USA Representative

Registered International Master Instructor, World Ildokwan Federation

I wasn't aware someone could be ranked that highly in that many arts...  :shrug:

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *MartialArtist,
> 
> You are Korean?
> anyohashimunika
> (romanized Korean)
> 
> 
> 
> That was Dave Shultzs name Chinese-efied into what would seemed to have been Mandarin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually its not.
> Its a couple of Japanese-esque words stuck together that mean nothing. *


I am Korean.

Chinese-efied and Japanese-esque...  I've seen many people around, not just martial artists, but everyday people who wear something because it sounds or looks cool.  Have you ever seen pictures of a Japanese girl wearing a shirt that has something like "I like to eat p*ssy" in English?  Not too many of those around, but English characters somehow appealed to that girl.  I see people walking around with tatoos or just symbols on their shirt when they don't even know what they mean.  I saw one guy that had "wood" on his arm.  I don't know any Chinese, but I do know what the major characters (especially the elements) are.

Anyway, thanks for the Japanese lesson on mya ryu jitsu.

What is worse IMO, is that there are high ranking people even in the standard organizations that can't even pronounce the name of the art right.  Such as tae kwon do.

It is NOT pronounced "tai kwan doe".  It's more "tay ko^n do" where there are no drawlings or lapses.  All "sharp" pernunciations.  Do not exaggerate the y, it is like a sharp "tape" without the p sound, kon (not pernounced as con as in convict but kinda similiar to a sharp cone with some difference in phonics, and do is prounouced correctly, just need to do it a bit sharper.

The worst thing to me is when a person acts like they know what they are saying, but their grammar and accent are :rofl:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *MartialArtist,
> 
> You are Korean?
> anyohashimunika
> (romanized Korean)
> *


ahn young ha say yo.  Jo wha yo, kam sa ham ni da.

Sorry, I can't translate Korean phonics to English characters.  But I did understand what you said and my reply is above.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * I saw one guy that had "wood" on his arm.   *



Maybe he was advertising.....


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Maybe he was advertising..... *


Maybe just a little too happy around the guys


----------



## Matt Stone

No showers with the Wood guy...


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *The following are some photos of how to spot fake dan certificates from real ones.
> 
> 
> Notice the 2 types of hanko. The real one is more elaborate and therefore more difficult for scumbags to forge.the fake one I can buy at almost any stationary shop in Japan and has been mass produced by the 1,000s. *


Much like the family "banners" (I don't know what to call them in English) in Korean.

Korea's main language was Mandarin until King Sejong's reign.  The king and his scholars/administration wanted to make a much easier language to learn than Chinese, and thus, Korean.  However, in family trees, the name is always given in Korean first, then in Chinese characters right under it.  Plus, the family banners, were done by usually the oldest elder in the family (calligraphy).  Plus, there's the hand-carved family seal, stamp, and each family had its own unique paper.  Very hard to forge.


----------



## MartialArtist

Here is an example of a seal.  It's a bit faded out, and note what type of paper it's on.  Don't mind the white, it's due to my quick 15-second crop with Paint.  However, you can see some characteristics from this that aren't in the ones that you can just buy at a flea market.  Hand carved, etc.

Notice, this isn't even really that important.  The symbol has no important meaning...  If people spent this much time working on this, imagine what they would do with a real certificate or on the family tree & records.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Here are some different styles of kanji.

the chinese standard one (kaisho: square style)


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Although you didn't post it here on this BBs isnt this your bio from Grandmaster Schultz website?
> 
> Master David Craine
> Board of Directors International League of Martial Arts Masters
> Vice President Gulf Coast Martial Artists Guild
> A.R.K./CQDT Master Instructor
> 6th Dan Tae Kwon Do
> 
> 
> and with this caption under the photo.
> 
> GM Schultz inducting Master Craine into the League *


Yuk dan in TKD?

Even McDojangs in the United States have more decency than that.  It takes at least 15 years even for a McDojang kid to get to 6th dan.  It takes about over a year (usually two years) to get to il dan in a McDojang.  After that, McDojangs don't let people test so fast, maybe beacuse Kukkiwon might catch on to something 

I don't believe someone can have a yuk dan at that young an age (you really don't look that old Schultz, a compliment), especially when he studied many of the Japanese and Chinese arts, unless it was an organization elsewhere?  What organization is the rank from?


----------



## RyuShiKan

tensho (the oldest style, now used for personal seals' design)


----------



## RyuShiKan

reisho (a variant of the tensho style elaborated by monks)


----------



## RyuShiKan

gyôsho (semi-cursive style: informal kaisho)


----------



## RyuShiKan

and sôsho (cursive style: an abbreviated form of reisho style).


----------



## Matt Stone

It is my understanding that authentic hanko (not sure of the Chinese or Korean terms for them) are carved in the tensho style...

Not an easy task, seeing as how many of the characters are archaic, no longer in use, or difficult to translate...

Please, RyuShiKan, correct me if I am wrong.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Dead frickin' horse...
> 
> ...strange sense of humor...I did not see anything funny...
> If your teacher thinks we are children, then your post is even LESS funny...
> 
> out
> 
> chufeng *



No one is calling anyone children just a metaphore I used.


----------



## RyuShiKan

And for Chinese.........

The zhuan script or seal character was the earliest form of writing after the oracle inscriptions, which must have caused great inconvenience because they lacked uniformity and many characters were written in variant forms. The first effort for the unification of writing, it is said, took place during the reign of King Xuan (827-782 B. C.) of the Western Zhou Dynasty, when his taishi (grand historian) Shi Zhou compiled a lexicon of 15 chapters, standardizing Chinese writing under script called zhuan. It is also known as zhouwen after the name of the author. This script, often used in seals, is translated into English as the seal character, or as the "curly script" after the shape of its strokes.


----------



## RyuShiKan

The lishu (official script) came in the wake of the xiaozhuan in the same short-lived Qin Dynasty (221 - 207 B. C.). This was because the xiaozhuan, though a simplified form of script, was still too complicated for the scribes in the various government offices who had to copy an increasing amount of documents. Cheng Miao, a prison warden, made a further simplification of the xiaozhuan, changing the curly strokes into straight and angular ones and thus making writing much easier. A further step away from the pictographs, it was named lishu because li in classical Chinese meant "clerk" or "scribe". Another version says that Cheng Miao, because of certain offence, became a prisoner and slave himself; as the ancients also called bound slaves "li", so the script was named lishu or the "script of a slave".


----------



## arnisador

Thanks *RyuShiKan*, this is interesting and informative!


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *No one is calling anyone children just a metaphore I used. *




metaphor (Noun)
Definition: a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Although you didn't post it here on this BBs isnt this your bio from Grandmaster Schultz website?
> 
> Master David Craine
> Board of Directors International League of Martial Arts Masters
> Vice President Gulf Coast Martial Artists Guild
> A.R.K./CQDT Master Instructor
> 6th Dan Tae Kwon Do
> 
> 
> and with this caption under the photo.
> 
> GM Schultz inducting Master Craine into the League *



Yeh! its me. Why?

I didnt post my rank here because it is not necessary and I have nothing to prove to anyone.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Of course, one does not have to  give proof. The only consequence is, NO ONE BELIEVES ANY OF YOUR CRAP.  So, if you don't feel like giving proof, fine with us. That just tells us ALL WE NEED TO KNOW.  Quite simple, wouldn't you say? *



No everything is not always black and white!

I thought you wanted this issue to die and you didnt give a rats a#$.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *It is my understanding that authentic hanko (not sure of the Chinese or Korean terms for them) are carved in the tensho style...
> 
> Not an easy task, seeing as how many of the characters are archaic, no longer in use, or difficult to translate...
> 
> Please, RyuShiKan, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *




Yiliquan1, 

Hanko making is a hobby of mine so I have read a bit about them. To make a nice hanko you need the hands of a Swiss watch maker and the patients of the Popeso it is a kind of training for me.  since I have neither.
I might add that all the kanji on the hanko have to be carved backwards (mirror image) so they come out correctly when stamped. 

Most MA certification hankos are written in either Japanese tensho, Chinese zhuan, and sometimes Chinese lishu script. 
Why?
Because they are hard to duplicate.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *  Yeh! its me. Why?*



Just curious. 



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * I didnt post my rank here because it is not necessary and I have nothing to prove to anyone. *



Whatever you say.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Well, your  teacher did claim rank and the last time I checked his web site, (by clicking on the "WWW" button on your posts) those claims were still there along with those of his senior students.
> 
> And the aurgument you use, about how some people will never accept proof, so why bother give it to anyone kind of sets of alarms in my mind. As I said before, there are some people that will look at proof and still deny it. You are not trying to prove things to those people. You are trying to prove things to people who are not involved so they can check for themselves.
> 
> If someone makes a claim, and another person states that the proof is untrue, then from an observers standpoint it is hard to tell who is telling the truth. But if they can look up the proof themselves, then they know who to believe. However, when a person makes claims about having rank, and then refuses to back up that story, the person like me who has no stake in the matter naturally assumes that the person trying to make the claims is an incompetent fraud. Especially after making a claim that is proven false they then start to say that the claim was not important anyways. *




I stand by my earlier statements on this issue, thats my opinion and I am entitled to it.
Your point has been made and I respect your opinion.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Here is an example of xingshu or running hand style script along with several hanko of various styles off to the side.


----------



## RyuShiKan

On the basis of lishu also evolved caoshu (grass writing or cursive hand), which is rapid and used for making quick but rough copies. This style is subdivided into two schools: zhangcao and jincao..notice the normal kanji off to the right so you can read it just incase you dont understand caoshu style hand writing.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *I have another question...
> 
> I remember something in the past where Mr. Schultz said he was not really interested in the Korean arts, he was having a great time with what he already does and I totally understand that.  But then why are you a representative of the organization?  I went to your website, and ARK is your own special blend of close quarters combat karate, am I right?  Well, shouldn't you belong to an organization that kinda pertains to that instead of the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization?  And in Korea, there is no such thing as the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization.  There might be some people in Korea that belong to the organization, but it is not based out of Korea, yet it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization.  Actually, according to its website, it is located in Florida by a guy of Jack Stern.  And why does he use a Japanese term, and some washed out non-Korean characters as his head?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that yudo is judo which is Japanese, but it calls itself the  Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization.  Yudo, although a Japanese art, is a Korean term.  Hapkido is a Korean art.  There is "Korean" in the title.  Yet nothing there is remotely Korean.  The logo does look like a that of an ITF patch that I've seen.  The only thing Korean I've seen is the whole paragraph right under his logo on his dobuk, which is too small to read but obviously Korean.  And, what it looks like to be a WTF patch, but too distant to see.
> 
> I think the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization would do better if it renamed it to a name that suited the organization better.  Obviously, Stern has very little yudo and hapkido experience, even on his website, but does seem to have more Japanese references.  Just a suggestion. *





I cant answer this as good as Schultz but I do know that this organization has afiliation with Korea as well as the rest of the world. This organization accepts Martial artists from many differant styles from all over the world, if you have time read through the web site and I think your questions will be answered a little better.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I cant answer this as good as Schultz but I do know that this organization has afiliation with Korea as well as the rest of the world. *



You call your instructor Schultz..not Mr...kinda rude dont ya think?


----------



## chufeng

Now we are to believe that DAC is an 8th dan in about 16 different arts?

 

I will be more careful about pissing him off in the future...

DAC...do you REALLY post that kind of rank???
Give me a break...
8th dan in ONE art is a lifetime endeavor...and not one that one actually seeks, but which catches up to him as his training progresses...

I honestly hope you never run into a REAL 5th dan...
He'll eat your lunch...

Aren't you just a little embarrassed to post the "bio" that you've posted?
Aren't you just a little bit ashamed of shamming those who look up to you?

Your claims are even more outrageous than your teacher's...

VERY disappointed in Puyallup...

chufeng


----------



## chufeng

Ooops...couldn't let the frickin' dead horse die, could you...Welcome to peer review...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan

Based on the above information I have displayed you can understand why calligraphy is a matter of pride for several countries in Asia that use Chinese kanji. It is also a past time of most Asian MA people since they use it to make certifications and makimono (scrolls) dealing with their art. 
Therefore, it is understandable that a certificate supposedly issued in Asia that has banged out on a word processor is a joke at best.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Dong Koo Yudo Kwon...  I have never heard of this organization.  I'm Korean, and the words do sound Korean, although they really don't make sense in how they are used, but maybe it's just a name for their organization or archaic (before 1600s)?
> 
> I really have no clue on your organization.  I'm confused, care to enlighten me?  The name Zhao Dei Whei or whatever in the beginning, sounded Mandarin or Catonese.  Then mya ryu jitsu is obviously Japanese.  Then you have some remote Korean organization promoting it?  Can anyone clarify for me what this is? *



Dong Koo Yudo Kwon if I'm not mistaken is affiliated with WTF and again I'm not 100% sure but I believe there headquarters is located in the kookiwon. not possative of the spelling>


I believe the names have been explained before so I'll make this short.    1. Zhoa      Dai Weh
              (schultz)    ( david)  chinease

              2. Mya      Ryu      Jitsu
   (arabic for water)  (style of)  (jitsu)  Japanease

Our system is a mix of many styles from all over the world.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Ooops...couldn't let the frickin' dead horse die, could you...Welcome to peer review...
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *



I think a Haiku is in order:

Furui ike ya (An old pond)

Kowazu tobikomu (A frog leaps)

Mizu no oto (A splash resounds)

let me know if you get it....


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *   I believe the names have been explained before so I'll make this short.    1. Zhoa      Dai Weh
> (schultz)    ( david)  chinease*



Chinease? Is that anything like Chinese?



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *      2. Mya      Ryu      Jitsu
> (arabic for water)  (style of)  (jitsu)  Japanease*



Can't comment on the Arabic, but the Japanease is FUBARed.
Ryu has about 10 different variations depending on the kanji, and jitsu means actually or in some cases day.
So by your rendition you have water something (possibly style) of day".
Given the fact that your teacher changes the name of his art almost daily thats not a bad name for it.




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *   Our system is a mix of many styles from all over the world. *



You should care it Quisinart like the thing that mixes food. 
(just kidding)


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Yuk dan in TKD?
> 
> Even McDojangs in the United States have more decency than that.  It takes at least 15 years even for a McDojang kid to get to 6th dan.  It takes about over a year (usually two years) to get to il dan in a McDojang.  After that, McDojangs don't let people test so fast, maybe beacuse Kukkiwon might catch on to something
> 
> I don't believe someone can have a yuk dan at that young an age (you really don't look that old Schultz, a compliment), especially when he studied many of the Japanese and Chinese arts, unless it was an organization elsewhere?  What organization is the rank from? *



I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.
Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are  The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ***.
                           The Dong Koo Yudo Kwon
                           The world TKD Federation

Please dont drag this topic on to long I chose not to post my rank here for a reason now that its out theres your proof but thats all I am willing to post.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months. *



I am sure you wouldnt like that at all.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are  The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ***.
> *



Dont ya think you should call him Mr. Schultz.or senseiI mean after all he is your instructorshow a little respect.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Here is a nice chart I found that gives the style next to each other.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *You call your instructor Schultz..not Mr...kinda rude dont ya think? *



Not to his face just taking short cuts in here.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Not to his face just taking short cuts in here. *




It would seem you guys take a lot of "short cuts"


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *
> 
> Now we are to believe that DAC is an 8th dan in about 16 different arts?
> 
> 
> 
> I will be more careful about pissing him off in the future...
> 
> DAC...do you REALLY post that kind of rank???
> Give me a break...
> 8th dan in ONE art is a lifetime endeavor...and not one that one actually seeks, but which catches up to him as his training progresses...
> 
> I honestly hope you never run into a REAL 5th dan...
> He'll eat your lunch...
> 
> Aren't you just a little embarrassed to post the "bio" that you've posted?
> Aren't you just a little bit ashamed of shamming those who look up to you?
> 
> Your claims are even more outrageous than your teacher's...
> 
> VERY disappointed in Puyallup...
> 
> chufeng *




That bio that was posted earlier is not mine nor do I know whos it is I have no 8th dan and have only studied 2 different styles in my life, I dont even see anyones name attached to that bio you will have to ask the poster for that info.. I think that was just an ex. of one of the bio's he found.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *It would seem you guys take a lot of "short cuts" *




You know nothing about us guys and sure do make alot of false alligations about people you dont know, the above post was not necessary I think you got my point no need for this crap.

I have respect for you and feel you bring alot of good info.. to this forum, but I also feel you make too many alligations and assumptions wich you can never back up.  why?


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *You know nothing about us guys and sure do make alot of false alligations *



For example?



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have respect for you.. *



Do you always call people you respect an idiot?
I would shudder to think what you call someone you didnt respect.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *For example?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you always call people you respect an idiot?
> I would shudder to think what you call someone you didnt respect. *



I was very agravated on that day and try to refrain from name calling. I made a general apology for the name calling to everyone on the recieving end and it was sincere.


Example: you guys seem to take alot of short cuts!

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THIS! :asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.
> Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are  The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ***.
> The Dong Koo Yudo Kwon
> The world TKD Federation
> 
> Please dont drag this topic on to long I chose not to post my rank here for a reason now that its out theres your proof but thats all I am willing to post. *


WOW!  The WTF recognizes your yuk dan?

I wouldn't know anything at all, since I've been studying before the age of 7, and have trained from Korea from around 7 to almost my high school years with drill instructors.  Hopefully, at 28, you don't have grandchildren.   It took me over a decade to get my il dan.  Call me jealous, because I want a yuk dan.  The average age for a yuk dan holder is around the high 40s to 50s.  You realize that if you already have a yuk dan at 28, you are one of a kind.

And if recognized by the WTF, all I have to do is call them and ask what the youngest yuk dan they have.  If 28 or younger is the answer, then I will believe you.  It doesn't matter if that 28 year old is you or not, that is enough proof for me.  However, a more realistic answer would be somewhere the early 40s or maybe even the late 30s.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *You know nothing about us guys and sure do make alot of false alligations about people you dont know, the above post was not necessary I think you got my point no need for this crap.
> 
> I have respect for you and feel you bring alot of good info.. to this forum, but I also feel you make too many alligations and assumptions wich you can never back up.  why? *


No need for this crap?  With all due respect, all RyuShiKan has been posting is cold hard facts.  After that, he always gives out his opinion based on those cold hard facts, which he is entitled to, while you are entitled to yours.

But please realize, that all the responses are not out of the blue, but based on the information placed on the website, the organizations the website announces relations with, the claims that are made, and by the demeanor of the given public that makes those claims.

I have never studied ARK, so I will not make assumptions.  But, I can see how certain people can make assumptions based on many of the things said and it is their opinion.  Whether you believe their opinions are based on facts or on air, is up to you.  But remember, facts are not open for debate.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *WOW!  The WTF recognizes your yuk dan?
> 
> I wouldn't know anything at all, since I've been studying before the age of 7, and have trained from Korea from around 7 to almost my high school years with drill instructors.  Hopefully, at 28, you don't have grandchildren.   It took me over a decade to get my il dan.  Call me jealous, because I want a yuk dan.  The average age for a yuk dan holder is around the high 40s to 50s.  You realize that if you already have a yuk dan at 28, you are one of a kind.
> 
> And if recognized by the WTF, all I have to do is call them and ask what the youngest yuk dan they have.  If 28 or younger is the answer, then I will believe you.  It doesn't matter if that 28 year old is you or not, that is enough proof for me.  However, a more realistic answer would be somewhere the early 40s or maybe even the late 30s. *



I have never been to thier headquarters or even filled out a member aplication but I do have an authentic certificate that recognizes my rank. Im not even sure if they know my age.
so if your going to check, look it up under my name.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Example: you guys seem to take alot of short cuts!
> 
> HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THIS! :asian: *



I look at your website and see the claims to extremely high ranks in several arts and titles like Master or Grandmaster. 
I call the HQ one of you claims rank in and they have never heard of you.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *No need for this crap?  With all due respect, all RyuShiKan has been posting is cold hard facts.  After that, he always gives out his opinion based on those cold hard facts, which he is entitled to, while you are entitled to yours.
> 
> But please realize, that all the responses are not out of the blue, but based on the information placed on the website, the organizations the website announces relations with, the claims that are made, and by the demeanor of the given public that makes those claims.
> 
> I have never studied ARK, so I will not make assumptions.  But, I can see how certain people can make assumptions based on many of the things said and it is their opinion.  Whether you believe their opinions are based on facts or on air, is up to you.  But remember, facts are not open for debate. *



your right everyone has thier own opinion and is entitled to share it.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have never been to thier headquarters or even filled out a member aplication but I do have an authentic certificate that recognizes my rank. Im not even sure if they know my age.
> so if your going to check, look it up under my name. *




Then shut everyone up and make them look stupid by posting it.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Then shut everyone up and make them look stupid by posting it. *




I do not have a scanner or fax machine or I honestly would.

send me a PM with your mailing adress and I will send you a copy.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I do not have a scanner or fax machine or I honestly would.
> 
> send me a PM with your mailing adress and I will send you a copy. *



There are more than a few Kinko's, or similar places, you can get it scanned to a disk.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I was very agravated on that day and try to refrain from name calling. I made a general apology for the name calling to everyone on the recieving end and it was sincere.
> 
> 
> Example: you guys seem to take alot of short cuts!
> 
> HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THIS! :asian: *


I think you just called me an ***



> I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.
> Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ***.
> The Dong Koo Yudo Kwon
> The world TKD Federation


I have not made any personal attacks that were out of the blue.  I was just pointing out some of the things that popped out at me.  If somehow, that offended you because for pointing something out, and if it makes you feel better, then I'm sorry, but I stick by my statements.  But no reason to call me an ***.  I have not affiliated you with such catch phrases, and do you honestly believe posts such as the one above will help you at all?

Anyway, here are the details as of right now on the website...

874 yuk dans in the world minus Korea.  That includes the entire world mind you.  And that doesn't mean Korean ethnicity, or Korean nationality, but it means anyone not teaching in the US.  There are only 51 9th dans in the world other than Korea, and luckily, I know of one teaching a few hours drive away from me.



-----------------------------------------------

I didn't even have to call!!!  Check this out...  I posted the English version so you can see it with your own eyes.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa0.asp?div=5

Age limit for 5th to 6th dan testing...  30 years (Born on December 31, 1972).  And you need to have held your 5th dan for five years in order to test.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Not only are the false claims made by posers an insult to the real Martial Artists; they are an embarrassment to their community and a disgrace to their families. Imposters deceive and abuse the trust of students, and boast about stupid exploits; sometimes they even manage to fool acquaintances for an extended period of time... but eventually they will be discovered and exposed.


----------



## RyuShiKan

So for 7th dan you need:

7th ~ 8th Dan 8 years
(Those promoted to 7th Dan on December 31, 1994 or earlier) 44 years old or higher
(Born on December 31, 1958 or earlier


----------



## MartialArtist

An excerpt of the requirements...


> 5. Time for Poomsae training and time for practical tests
> 1) Date and place: Dec. 7, 2002 (Sat) 08:40, Kukkiwon arena
> 2) Poomsae training: 09:00-09:50
> 3) Opening ceremony: 10:00-10:10
> 4) Practical tests (Subject to change according to the number of applicants)
> (1) Poomsae, Kyorugi and Kyukpa for promotion to 6th & 7th Dan: 10:20~
> (2) Poomsae and Interview for promotion to 8th and 9th Dan: 10:20~
> 
> 
> 6. Kinds of Poomsae to be tested
> Dan / Cls. Kinds of Poomsae to be tested
> Applicant's selection Compulsory
> 6th Dan Taebaek, Pyongwon, Shipjin (Choose one) Jitae
> 7th Dan Pyongwon, Shipjin, Jitae (Choose one) Chunkwon
> 8th Dan Shipjin, Jitae, Chunkwon (Choose one) Hansoo
> 9th Dan Jitae, Chunkwon, Hansoo (Choose one) Ilyeo
> 
> 
> 7. Theme of the thesis
> Dan to be applied for Theme
> Korean residents (6th through 9th Dan) Methods to Promte the Operation of Taekwondo Dojang
> Foreign residents (8th & 9th Dan)   *Choose one
> 1. Development of Taekwondo Techniques
> 2. Taekwondo Spirit
> 3. Teachin Ideas Based on Experiences
> 4. Methods for Systematic Improvements
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) The thesis should be submitted on the day of the test.
> 2) Size of the thesis: at least 10 A4-sized (one A4-size = 700 characters) pages in Korean or English
> 3) Applicant cannot pass the test in the following cases:
> (1) The title of the thesis does not relate with the content.
> (2) The thesis includes content not good enough.
> (3) The size of the thesis is not long enough.
> (4) Two or more applicants submit the same thesis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. Documents to be submitted
> 
> 
> 1) Application form for promotion test (recommendation by a Taekwondo master
> holding 9th Dan or higher or president of the member national association of the WTF in the pertinent
> country
> 2) Curriculum vitae that includes the martial arts career
> 3) Foreigners of Korean origin should submit a document that certifies his/her residence outside Korea.


----------



## MartialArtist

Screenshot of the table on the website

Guess we were both wrong DAC.  I was wrong, there probably are people with 6th dans that are younger than my estimations.


----------



## MartialArtist

But realize that the age expectations do not mean that there are any 53 year old 9th dans.  Most 9th dans are over 60.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *I think you just called me an ***
> 
> 
> I have not made any personal attacks that were out of the blue.  I was just pointing out some of the things that popped out at me.  If somehow, that offended you because for pointing something out, and if it makes you feel better, then I'm sorry, but I stick by my statements.  But no reason to call me an ***.  I have not affiliated you with such catch phrases, and do you honestly believe posts such as the one above will help you at all?
> 
> Anyway, here are the details as of right now on the website...
> 
> 874 yuk dans in the world minus Korea.  That includes the entire world mind you.  And that doesn't mean Korean ethnicity, or Korean nationality, but it means anyone not teaching in the US.  There are only 51 9th dans in the world other than Korea, and luckily, I know of one teaching a few hours drive away from me.
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> I didn't even have to call!!!  Check this out...  I posted the English version so you can see it with your own eyes.
> 
> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa0.asp?div=5
> 
> Age limit for 5th to 6th dan testing...  30 years (Born on December 31, 1972).  And you need to have held your 5th dan for five years in order to test. *




First of all both above quotes were not intended for you so dont take offence.

Thats some great info.. but again I dont think they know my age at least no-one ever asked me for it. Maybe if they knew my age they would not have recognized such rank, but I do have the certificates.


----------



## RyuShiKan

.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *First of all both above quotes were not intended for you so dont take offence.
> 
> Thats some great info.. but again I dont think they know my age at least no-one ever asked me for it. Maybe if they knew my age they would not have recognized such rank, but I do have the certificates. *


No problem, if they were not intended for me.  But to whom where they intended to?

Certificates...  They are not from WTF.  If you look at the requirements, you do need to fill out an application form.  Notice, APPLICATION FORM.  It also requires ID.  The application form requires you to have your birthdate on it.  Your ID also has your birthdate.  So logically...

Plus, you need a recommendation from a 9th dan or someone very high up there in the supreme council who are also 9th dans.  They don't give recommendations to anyone.  And please take note...  9th dans that are recognized by Kukkiwon, and have met all the requirements on that page plus many extra ones not listed.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Not only are the false claims made by posers an insult to the real Martial Artists; they are an embarrassment to their community and a disgrace to their families. Imposters deceive and abuse the trust of students, and boast about stupid exploits; sometimes they even manage to fool acquaintances for an extended period of time... but eventually they will be discovered and exposed. *




I agree with you here and wish I could post those certificates just to put it all out there.


Again if you send me a PM with a mailing address you can be reached at I will send copies, and after your review you can post them.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I agree with you here and wish I could post those certificates just to put it all out there.
> 
> 
> Again if you send me a PM with a mailing address you can be reached at I will send copies, and after your review you can post them. *



Can't you just go to kinko's and get it  scanned?


----------



## RyuShiKan




----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *No problem, if they were not intended for me.  But to whom where they intended to?
> 
> Certificates...  They are not from WTF.  If you look at the requirements, you do need to fill out an application form.  Notice, APPLICATION FORM.  It also requires ID.  The application form requires you to have your birthdate on it.  Your ID also has your birthdate.  So logically...
> 
> Plus, you need a recommendation from a 9th dan or someone very high up there in the supreme council who are also 9th dans.  They don't give recommendations to anyone.  And please take note...  9th dans that are recognized by Kukkiwon, and have met all the requirements on that page plus many extra ones not listed. *



I do have a certificate from the WTF and was never required to fill out a aplication? The certificate has the kukkiwon on the front and the WTF seal.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Can't you just go to kinko's and get it  scanned? *





Kirk, 
Idid not know that kinkos could scan and post it here for me, I will have to look into that thanks. 

Please be patient I'm a detention deputy and dont work in corporate america.:rofl:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I do have a certificate from the WTF and was never required to fill out a aplication? The certificate has the kukkiwon on the front and the WTF seal. *


Probably not a real one.

Is it handwritten?  Is there a seal?  You can tell if it's hand-carved, or just copied.  Hand-carved - Looks like real ink, it shouldn't be perfectly applied with certain areas that are darker than others.  You really can't simulate the "authentic" look.  Can you scan it?

Sorry to say, you were probably duped.  Who gave it to you would be my first question.  It is probably a fake right as of right now.  Don't confuse seal with logo.  Just because it has the WTF logo and a picture of Kukkiwon doesn't mean anything.  And the certificates for higher ranks aren't just paper.  It's real quality, thick paper, has brownish and yellowish tints to it.

Certificate isn't real.


----------



## MartialArtist

Anyway, if you know the person and/or the organization that gave you the certificate, post it here.  I'm interested.  And the manner of how you received it.


----------



## Disco

You claim that Youk Dan rank should be in their late 40's early 50's. Don't know where you come up with that age figure. In my 20yrs in TKD I've seen and met more 30 something and early 40 year olds that were Korean and held 6th, 7th and 8th dan rankings than you can shake a stick at. The midwest states are full of them. In fact I'll give you a web site to go to that has Korean Masters pictures. www.ustw.org These are all 8th and 9th dans and most are under 50. 

I just don't like to see somebody jumping on a bandwagon against one person and then making claims that are shall we say less then correct. Very similiar to another of your posts stating all TKD schools in America are connected to Korea. I answered that one also but more blind eyes. You have something factual and constructive to say/add then by all means please do. Just don't blast off a shotgun statement and exspect it to fly.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Kirk,
> Idid not know that kinkos could scan and post it here for me, I will have to look into that thanks.
> 
> Please be patient I'm a detention deputy and dont work in corporate america.:rofl: *




Here is a link to Kinkos.

http://www.kinkos.com/our_services/index.php

Look under Services and then Computer & Facilities.........they do scanning.


----------



## chufeng

DAC,

Stop scrambling...
You see what boasting high rank gets you???
The same thing your teacher got...
The number of so-called Masters in this country is AMAZING.

I told my teacher to stuff my last promotion...
and he did, right up my backside...
But I wear any number of colored belts on a week to week basis...

If someone were to ask what my rank was, I'd have to say at least a 3rd level black sash...but what does that mean???

Can I take it?
Can I dish it out?
Can I teach others to do the same?

Yes, yes, and yes...
Can I verify the rank my Sifu has awarded me?
Yes...

...and I am sure it is the same with you...
ZDW, MRJ, ARK etc...will verify your rank...

Can you dish it out?
Probably

Can you take it?
I don't know

Can you teach it?
I don't know

So, why do you want to continue this circular argument?
Is it so you can walk in the path of your teacher?

Personally, I like to learn from someone else's mistakes...
That way I don't have to repeat them...

I will not respond to this silliness again...I did so with your teacher, and now briefly with you...but I'm done...

Good training

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *On the basis of lishu also evolved caoshu *



How many of these styles would Joe Average know? I assume they're special styles for the most part that only ex[erts and enthusiasts would be familiar with?


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Probably not a real one.
> 
> Is it handwritten?  Is there a seal?  You can tell if it's hand-carved, or just copied.  Hand-carved - Looks like real ink, it shouldn't be perfectly applied with certain areas that are darker than others.  You really can't simulate the "authentic" look.  Can you scan it?
> 
> Sorry to say, you were probably duped.  Who gave it to you would be my first question.  It is probably a fake right as of right now.  Don't confuse seal with logo.  Just because it has the WTF logo and a picture of Kukkiwon doesn't mean anything.  And the certificates for higher ranks aren't just paper.  It's real quality, thick paper, has brownish and yellowish tints to it.
> 
> Certificate isn't real. *




You just described the cert. it is hand written and has the tints ect. keep watching this thread over the next couple of days as I will find a way to get it scanned in here.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Quisinart like the thing that mixes food. *



"Cuisinart", from the French _cuisine_ (as long as we're doing spelling flames).


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *You claim that Youk Dan rank should be in their late 40's early 50's. Don't know where you come up with that age figure. In my 20yrs in TKD I've seen and met more 30 something and early 40 year olds that were Korean and held 6th, 7th and 8th dan rankings than you can shake a stick at. The midwest states are full of them. In fact I'll give you a web site to go to that has Korean Masters pictures. www.ustw.org These are all 8th and 9th dans and most are under 50.
> 
> I just don't like to see somebody jumping on a bandwagon against one person and then making claims that are shall we say less then correct. Very similiar to another of your posts stating all TKD schools in America are connected to Korea. I answered that one also but more blind eyes. You have something factual and constructive to say/add then by all means please do. Just don't blast off a shotgun statement and exspect it to fly. *


Notice the organization...  UTSW.  A little history on TKD...

Here is an excerpt from that website you posted.



> The United States Taekwondo Won was formed to develop and expand the philosophy and principles of Taekwondo in the United States. The ancient martial art of Taekwondo was founded in Korea, but has firmly settled in the United States of America since the 1950's


From my understanding, the name "tae kwon do" did not exist.  How could the ancient martial art of TKD set foot in Korea?  Yes, it had different names until they finally decided upon TKD, but the 1950s.  That is the era right after the Japanese occupation in Korea.  This was the very same era of the Korean War.  I doubt that the TKD we see today could have set foot.

You know something else?  Your very same website (of an organization that really isn't the authority, rather merely a promoter of the arts as MA lovers).  You say that you know lots of 8th and 9th dans, where most are under 50.  First of all, the first thing I come to is "FRAUD".  There is absolutely no way they can fit so much training in such short time.  Anyway, you ready for the big truth?  Age requirement for 9th dan is 53 years old.  So yes, I do doubt you.

http://www.ustw.org/ustw_dan_certification.htm - article 8


----------



## MartialArtist

Also Disco, keep in mind that the very same website you posted mentions Kukkiwon as if they were the standard.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *How many of these styles would Joe Average know? I assume they're special styles for the most part that only ex[erts and enthusiasts would be familiar with? *



Most people that are really into calligraphy know one style well and maybe can dable a bit of 2 or 3 others.
People that study it are usually asked to go through a level of exams and get certified (in Japan anyway)however, people that are good at it dont need the certificate and dont claim to hold any rank. Kinda reflects the topic at hand..no?

When I was in China I was doing Chinese Painting and I went to a brush store to get a new brush..I asked the old gent at the store which was a good brush to buy and he said any of them. I asked which brush would give me the best results and he said it didnt matterhe picked up the cheapest, nastiest, brush in his shop and said look.he whipped out some kanji of such  quality that I could only dream about making.
He said its not the brush but the brusher..he then stuck his finger in some ink and did the same kanji with his finger nail in the same excellent style as before.
It makes you think.........


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *"Cuisinart", from the French cuisine (as long as we're doing spelling flames). *




Thanks. My spellcheck kept kicking it out.


----------



## chufeng

Note: generic reply...

It is interesting that that site claims to be 





> a non-profit organization created to organize and promote Taekwondo as a martial art in the United States.



Why does TKD need to be promoted AS a martial art in the US?
Is it not a martial art in other places?
Or are we to be duped into thinking it really is a martial art, when in fact it isn't?

I am not trying to start another argument...just posing an interesting twist on the "promotion of TaeKwonDo" by the USTW.


 
chufeng


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *DAC,
> 
> Stop scrambling...
> You see what boasting high rank gets you???
> The same thing your teacher got...
> The number of so-called Masters in this country is AMAZING.
> 
> I told my teacher to stuff my last promotion...
> and he did, right up my backside...
> But I wear any number of colored belts on a week to week basis...
> 
> If someone were to ask what my rank was, I'd have to say at least a 3rd level black sash...but what does that mean???
> 
> Can I take it?
> Can I dish it out?
> Can I teach others to do the same?
> 
> Yes, yes, and yes...
> Can I verify the rank my Sifu has awarded me?
> Yes...
> 
> ...and I am sure it is the same with you...
> ZDW, MRJ, ARK etc...will verify your rank...
> 
> Can you dish it out?
> Probably
> 
> Can you take it?
> I don't know
> 
> Can you teach it?
> I don't know
> 
> So, why do you want to continue this circular argument?
> Is it so you can walk in the path of your teacher?
> 
> Personally, I like to learn from someone else's mistakes...
> That way I don't have to repeat them...
> 
> I will not respond to this silliness again...I did so with your teacher, and now briefly with you...but I'm done...
> 
> Good training
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *





WOW,

I'm not scrambling, I will post the certificate. I want them to see it I supose I could have been scammed by a MCdojo like so many other americans and what better way to prove it than to bring it to forums like this with others whom have Knowledge to share.

I did not post my rank here because of this but someone went to our web site found it and here it is, I dont mind defending it because I beleive it to be true and  I am proud of it, I lost alot of blood sweat and tears to earn it! also too many trips to they emergency room. I understand your point and respect your opinion I to usually dont where a belt and I am a very humble person, but I do not feel this is going to be a circular discussion.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Note: generic reply...
> 
> It is interesting that that site claims to be
> 
> Why does TKD need to be promoted AS a martial art in the US?
> Is it not a martial art in other places?
> Or are we to be duped into thinking it really is a martial art, when in fact it isn't?
> 
> I am not trying to start another argument...just posing an interesting twist on the "promotion of TaeKwonDo" by the USTW.
> 
> 
> 
> chufeng *




Do a search on TKD and the Moonies (Rev. Sung Yung Moon) and how he wanted to control all MA in Americascary stuff


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *The average age for a yuk dan holder is around the high 40s to 50s.*



Not in the States. Tae Kwon Do especially seems filled with inflated ranks. It's common to see third degrees who are well under 18. Look here:



> I saw a boy around 8-10 years old at 7th degree Black Belt.
> ...
> My Instructor has done somenthing I disagree with. he has made some 4 year olds Jr Instructors. I thought they had to be at least 6. and one of them whines and cries when it is time to come to class. At 4 I don't think they undestand the meaning of being a Jr. instructor.


 (ATA Tae Kwon Do)

Like it or not, it's not very unusual here in my experience. Whether a given TKD organization is different, say ITF or WTF, I don't know. But high ranks in TKD at young ages--even leaving aside the bizarre extremes above--are not uncommon.


----------



## MartialArtist

Political instability would have caused many Koreans to migrate to the US.  My parents were one of them, especially my father being from what is North Korea today.  So unless the organization you posted was older than Kukkiwon (1972)...  But the organization gives no date.  Also notice, the organization only says that it gives dan certificates that are only locally and nationally known.  But more locally, because I have lived in the Midwest, and have never heard of them, but that doesn't mean anything.  What's important is that most people recognize Kukkiwon, but not USTW.  It's like comparing the IB Program with AP.  The IB program is internationally known, internationally accepted, and have higher standards than AP classes.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *WOW,
> 
> I'm not scrambling, I will post the certificate. I want them to see it I supose I could have been scammed by a MCdojo like so many other americans and what better way to prove it than to bring it to forums like this with others whom have Knowledge to share.
> 
> I did not post my rank here because of this but someone went to our web site found it and here it is, I dont mind defending it because I beleive it to be true and  I am proud of it, I lost alot of blood sweat and tears to earn it! also too many trips to they emergency room. I understand your point and respect your opinion I to usually dont where a belt and I am a very humble person, but I do not feel this is going to be a circular discussion. *



In all fairness to you DAC, since I have been busting your chops, you very well could be better than many of the authorized folks of the same rank you claim.
I was a member of the JKF for over 10 years, (my rank was issued by an Okinawa which caused a lot of grief to the Japaneselong story) and I met a lot of bloated rank Japanese that blew dog in the immortal words of Ford Fairlane. I mean they couldn't do squat but thought they ate coal and dropped diamonds out the other end.


----------



## Disco

You doubt me? Your the one that posted the Kukkiwon requirements. Yes 9th dan Kukkiwon is 53. 8th Dan Kukkiwon is 44 and so on. Your the one that stated 6th Dan was late 40's to 50's. As far as some of these Korean Masters holding 9th Dans. They hold 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 9th Dan in the particular Style/Association thay teach and belong to.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Not in the States. Tae Kwon Do especially seems filled with inflated ranks. It's common to see third degrees who are well under 18. Look here:
> 
> (ATA Tae Kwon Do)
> 
> Like it or not, it's not very unusual here in my experience. Whether a given TKD organization is different, say ITF or WTF, I don't know. But high ranks in TKD at young ages--even leaving aside the bizarre extremes above--are not uncommon. *


I am aware of this dilemma, there are a bunch of these schools around in my area, located near malls, etc.

The real question: Would he be internationally accepted?  If the guy transferred from his school, to another school, would it work?  If he went to Korea to train, would he be accepted at that rank?  Hell no.  Well, maybe they might let him keep his belt, being a cute kid with a black belt and all.  But he would not be accepted even locally as a black belt.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *You doubt me? Your the one that posted the Kukkiwon requirements. Yes 9th dan Kukkiwon is 53. 8th Dan Kukkiwon is 44 and so on. Your the one that stated 6th Dan was late 40's to 50's. As far as some of these Korean Masters holding 9th Dans. They hold 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 9th Dan in the particular Style/Association thay teach and belong to. *


Please try to read the entire thread.  Notice I said I was OFF in my estimations.  Why won't you try calling Kukkiwon?  They can give you how many x dans there are for each age group.


----------



## arnisador

Please, keep the discussion general and not focused on any one individual's rank/certification/lineage.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## MartialArtist

http://www.wkimtkd.com/instructors.htm - That's an example good school from the looks of it.  Yes, it's geared more towards exhibition/sport/competition, but there are self-defense classes for those who are interested.

Look at his own children, who've been training their whole lives.  Even with all their references, they are 4th and 5th dan respectively and they trained their whole lives.

Anyway, look at the instructors in the "Other instructors" category.  Bob Bartels is over 50, and only a 3rd dan.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *In all fairness to you DAC, since I have been busting your chops, you very well could be better than many of the authorized folks of the same rank you claim.
> I was a member of the JKF for over 10 years, (my rank was issued by an Okinawa which caused a lot of grief to the Japaneselong story) and I met a lot of bloated rank Japanese that blew dog in the immortal words of Ford Fairlane. I mean they couldn't do squat but thought they ate coal and dropped diamonds out the other end. *




I have never questioned the authenticity of my certificates in these organizations nor have I ever followed up to check to see if their even registered.

I do know that I have been a student of TKD for over 20 years and in that time I have learned and taught alot.

I have been in competitions with american and even some korean students, I have always done well and can say that even if the kukkiwon does not recognize my rank and I was scrood (wich I highly doubt) I will still have all the knowledge I have learned over the years no-one can take that from me, and thats all that really matters to me.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * I will still have all the knowledge I have learned over the years no-one can take that from me, and thats all that really matters to me. *



Yup!


----------



## RyuShiKan

Sorry.........couldn't resist........


----------



## DAC..florida

O.K.

I cant beleive I have been on the computer this long its almost 1:00 am and I have to work in the morning so Ill be back tommorrow.


----------



## MartialArtist

Arnisador, could you do a favor for me and find out what organizations the schools with the 3rd degree black belt kids?  I have my hunches that the school is from a small, independent organization and if it happens to belongs to Kukkiwon, etc., ask how they got around the requirements?  If you look at the charts, there is a time lapse where you can't test, and the higher rank you have, the longer you can't test.  And people don't realize, testing gets VERY strict once you get in front of people very high...  One mistake, and you're almost doomed to fail.

I see the two topics related.  They are intertwined.  If someone gets an 8th dan from some remote organization, it is "technically" true that they have an 8th dan.  However, none of their sources check out due to them not being in the standard organizations.  Not only that, most remote organizations have lower standards, focus on poomsae and memorization than skills, experience, and physical and mental prowess.  And most of the time, people who have dan ranks from anything other than the standard are usually labeled as frauds - a lot of the time, they aren't frauds, just don't know any better and don't have the skills comparable to their counterparts of more recognized organizations.


----------



## Disco

Just rechecked your posts and did'nt see where you said your were "Off". Non the less, everything is cool, we have established the correct information. Thanks for your input.

The reason for the advent of the USTW is MONEY. All these guardians of TKD were members of the USTU, which is in charge of the TKD Olympic team and training etc. They along with the AAU, another Organization that has expanded into TKD want to control the Olympic purse stings in America. You could drown in the political waters when the next Olympic come rolling around. My former Master Instructor is involved with this new group and lets just say he has some baggage in the trunk. God how I hate Politics in the Arts. But it's all over. Even Mr. Ryu has encountered his share I would assume.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Sorry.........couldn't resist........ *



Dont be sorry as you know I am one of those who mix and I found humor in that post.   roflmao


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Dont be sorry as you know I am one of those who mix and I found humor in that post.   roflmao *



I just thought things were getting a tad too serious and thought it might break things up a bit.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Just rechecked your posts and did'nt see where you said your were "Off". Non the less, everything is cool, we have established the correct information. Thanks for your input.
> 
> The reason for the advent of the USTW is MONEY. All these guardians of TKD were members of the USTU, which is in charge of the TKD Olympic team and training etc. They along with the AAU, another Organization that has expanded into TKD want to control the Olympic purse stings in America. You could drown in the political waters when the next Olympic come rolling around. My former Master Instructor is involved with this new group and lets just say he has some baggage in the trunk. God how I hate Politics in the Arts. But it's all over. Even Mr. Ryu has encountered his share I would assume. *





> Guess we were both wrong DAC. I was wrong, there probably are people with 6th dans that are younger than my estimations.


On pg. 16


----------



## RyuShiKan

Sorry.......I am back now........just lost my head for a second.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Here is an example of a pretty standard menjo.
I have shrunk it and deleted some of the more important lines so it wont be pirated. 
Notice the triple hanko to prevent forgery or copying, also of note it is hand written.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Arnisador, could you do a favor for me and find out what organizations the schools with the 3rd degree black belt kids?  *



See here:
http://www.ataonline.com


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Sorry.........couldn't resist........ *



Heh. I refuse to laught at this as a matter of principle.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *See here:
> http://www.ataonline.com *


I think that website is pretty self-explanatory on how the organization runs...  Checked out the message board too, didn't find much there.


----------



## Matt Stone

I'm from Omaha, Nebraska originally, and I always found it interesting that, in the Denny's of the Midwest (you don't go to Omaha on purpose, you just end up there...  Or is that Council Bluffs?) there were two 1976 Korean National Grand Champion Master TKD teachers...  Two of 'em, in the same city.

Aren't we lucky!!!

Still haven't figured out how they _both_ managed to win the same tournament, though...  Must have the damn things quarterly, given the number of National Grand Champions I have seen listed in phone books around the country...

See, that's one of my hobbies...  Being in the military, I have had the opportunity to travel a lot.  The first thing I do after I put down my suitcase is pick up the Yellow Pages and start scanning...  You'd be amazed at the stuff you find in the phone book.

You'd also be amazed at the sheer volume of Korean Grand Champion Master TKD teachers, too...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I'm from Omaha, Nebraska originally, and I always found it interesting that, in the Denny's of the Midwest (you don't go to Omaha on purpose, you just end up there...   *




Omaha.cultural center of the universe


----------



## Matt Stone

Also, the bio I posted earlier is for some Kempo guy that claims certification of rank through the aforementioned Korean organization...

Still, pretty fancy leanings for this guy...  Wonder how old he is.  He must have started training when he was still in diapers, although I personally question a person's "real" training until they are at least 18 years old...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Omaha.cultural center of the universe *



Now, now...  Let's not get finger pointin' there.  We know that we aren't the center of the universe, but you can see it from there!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan

Dat's right Evrabody know KC be the center:rofl:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *If you try and look at it that way, then every person has their unique "style".  What do I call my style?  I can think of a clever name and market it also. *


I have not finished sifting all the way through this yet, so, if I now say something that has already been said, forgive me.  I am going to slightly misquote Ed Parker here, for the reason that i do not have the exact text here in front of me.  But Mr. Parker said that each person's _style_ is his own, what one learns is a _system_


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I was always amazed at how many martial arts masters and grandmasters that had settled in all the small towns I have lived in...  It must be the sense of community and overall safety that these most deadly of people seek out as a haven from the violence that surely follows them every waking moment...
> 
> Or not.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *


You should see Pinellas and Hillsborough counties in Florida!  :rofl:
You would absolutely not believe the amount of Super Dans down there.  I left Florida four years ago to return to my hometown in West Virginia.  I opened my own school two years ago and am quite friendly with most of the other school owners in the area.  I know of one legit 8th degree, he had been a third for about 6 years when I met him 20 years ago.  The rest of us are 4th or under, some by choice, others by politics.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *And what organizations are those?
> 
> Kempo is American, and although it is based on Japanese arts, it is still American.  And the founder of Kempo did have Japanese ties that check out. *


Not a completely true or accurate statement.  *American* Ke*N*po is American.  It was founded by Mr. Ed Parker, Sr.  American Kenpo is NOT based on Japanese arts, it has more of a Chinese leaning.  Don't get me wrong, I am not stating that there is no Japanese heritage, it is not solely based on Japanese arts.  Regardless, Mr. Parker was recognized by both Japanese and Chinese masters.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Not a completely true or accurate statement.  American KeNpo is American.  It was founded by Mr. Ed Parker, Sr.  American Kenpo is NOT based on Japanese arts, it has more of a Chinese leaning.  Don't get me wrong, I am not stating that there is no Japanese heritage, it is not solely based on Japanese arts.  Regardless, Mr. Parker was recognized by both Japanese and Chinese masters. *



Technically "Kempo" is a generic term ( I'll probably be corrected by the sheriff though)and does reflect one art. For the most part the only time it does reflect a single art is in the West.


----------



## James Kovacich

So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!!


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!! *



Do you really want proof that I'm a purple belt?  If I'm gonna lie,
I'd lie further than that!


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Technically "Kempo" is a generic term ( I'll probably be corrected by the sheriff though)and does reflect one art. For the most part the only time it does reflect a single art is in the West. *



CORRECTION:

Supposed to read Kempo does not represent just one art except possibly in the West.:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Do you really want proof that I'm a purple belt?  If I'm gonna lie,
> I'd lie further than that! *



If you were one of the ones that was eager to help dacflorida to post his, then YES.

As far as the others, I think whats good for the goose is good for the gander and that "WE SHOULD LEAD BY EXAMPLE."  

I know the sheriff offered help with the KINKO info., is he going to post his too??????????


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *If you were one of the ones that was eager to help dacflorida to post his, then YES.
> 
> As far as the others, I think whats good for the goose is good for the gander and that "WE SHOULD LEAD BY EXAMPLE."
> 
> I know the sheriff offered help with the KINKO info., is he going to post his too?????????? *



Eager??? No .. but I did ask why not go to kinkos instead of
mailing certs out to everyone.

Plus .. there's a big difference in our claims.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Eager??? No .. but I did ask why not go to kinkos instead of
> mailing certs out to everyone.
> 
> Plus .. there's a big difference in our claims. *



No matter what the talk, we were born equal and we will die equal.

Why should just one person post their cert.? Just because someone dosen't believe that he could have it? 

He stated he had over 20 years in the art and that art in particular is known for high rank blackbelts as well the most blackbelts that are children.

I think everybody should expose themselves EQUALLY or SHUT UP and leave those guys alone!


----------



## Phil Elmore

We are neither equal when born nor equal in death.  We are all born with different abilities, talents, and tendencies.  We all die leaving behind lives of varying profundity, the legacies of which are profoundly different in character.


----------



## A.R.K.

> You should see Pinellas and Hillsborough counties in Florida!





> You would absolutely not believe the amount of Super Dans down there. I left Florida four years ago to return to my hometown in West Virginia. I opened my own school two years ago and am quite friendly with most of the other school owners in the area. I know of one legit 8th degree, he had been a third for about 6 years when I met him 20 years ago. The rest of us are 4th or under, some by choice, others by politics



Seig I have would agree with you in general but look at who they are.  For example Ric Martin I think is around 7th-8th.  Frank Goreman is probably 8th.  Joe Lewis, Mike McGann, Bill Blaise, Jim Graden etc.  Not exactly mcdojos.  Ric & Frank tested under Kanie and/or Kammie personally in Okinawa.  

Your reference to politics is accurate though, and a sad truth unfortunately.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!! *



See here.


----------



## KennethKu

> _originally by DAC_
> 
> I have never questioned the authenticity of my certificates in these organizations nor have I ever followed up to check to see if their even registered.
> 
> I do know that I have been a student of TKD for over 20 years and in that time I have learned and taught alot.
> 
> I have been in competitions with american and even some korean students, I have always done well and can say that even if the kukkiwon does not recognize my rank and I was scrood (wich I highly doubt) I will still have all the knowledge I have learned over the years no-one can take that from me, and thats all that really matters to me.



Yeah riight!  I  might  buy such a lame cover up from a 6 Gulp because the kid might not know any better. 

A legitimate 6th dan in TKD has invested a lots of blood and sweat , and years, to get there and is an accomplished member of the organization.  He would have 10 Gulp certificates  and 6 Dan certificates from his organizations. He would have been tested by a team of MASTERS and even GRANDMASTERS in TKD.  There is no chance in hell that he DOES NOT know how to spell Kukkiwon! There is no chance in hell that he does not know if his certificates worth cow chip or not. It makes NO FREAKING SENSE WHATSOEVER!  (That is like Mike Tyson didn't not know if Don King is in the boxing promotion business!) The absurdity is sky high, unless, OF COURSE that he is NOT of KUKKIWON!    

By the way, who promoted you to 6th Dan, DAC?  You ought to know this one! He has to be at least an 8th DAN Master in TKD.  I am sure Kukkiwon must has his John Hancock listed prominently. Unless, of course, the guy is NOT from Kukkiwon!  Then it would all make sense.

Is there by any chance there is another Kukkiwon in the Middle East too, DAC?


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *I have not finished sifting all the way through this yet, so, if I now say something that has already been said, forgive me.  I am going to slightly misquote Ed Parker here, for the reason that i do not have the exact text here in front of me.  But Mr. Parker said that each person's style is his own, what one learns is a system *


Yup


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Not a completely true or accurate statement.  American KeNpo is American.  It was founded by Mr. Ed Parker, Sr.  American Kenpo is NOT based on Japanese arts, it has more of a Chinese leaning.  Don't get me wrong, I am not stating that there is no Japanese heritage, it is not solely based on Japanese arts.  Regardless, Mr. Parker was recognized by both Japanese and Chinese masters. *


Isn't kenpo and kempo the same thing?  From my understanding, it is just a different translation from kanji to English.  Another word is sempai and senpai, which pretty much mean the same thing.  The only difference I could think of is with organization.  When talking about Ed Parker, Kenpo should be used, and that's my mistake.  Like wing chun vs. wing tsun.

I'm not saying that Kenpo is just Japanese.  Ed Parker did a lot of studying with Chinese systems.  However, the term American kenpo karate did not come out of the blue.



> Why the name American kenpo karate? Kenpo was a mother art in Okinawa, and most Okinawans referred to karate as kenpo. "Karate is a form of kenpo," Parker explains. "Kenpo is what your last name is to your first."



Like I said before, I do not deny Chinese influence.  Look at the logo, even that has Chinese influence.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *See here. *


You should grow a mullet!  You'd look good in one!


----------



## A.R.K.

WHHhhhoooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Whats that noise?

It's the wind blowing through a dead horse's skull! :rofl: 

Lets go about it this way as an illustration, or perhaps a question...

Mr. Smith is in a non-Korean country and he is non-Korean.  He is taking TKD classes and has reached the point where Sensei Jones feels Mr. Smith is ready to test for his 1st degree black belt.  Sensei Jones [or whatever the Korean word for instructor is] is a registered member of the Kukkiwon, lets say he's at 4th Dan.  

Mr. Smith tests and passes wonderfully.  

*Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?
*Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?
*Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?
*Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?
*What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?
*If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?

This is just as an exampe.  Thank you for your considered inputs.
:asian:


----------



## Marginal

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> *Can SB Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?
> *Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?
> *Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?
> *Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?
> *What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?
> *If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?
> *


 Just going in order on the ones I know...

Quite a few schools do offer BB's inside the school only. (Which is usually just a scam to pump the prospects for additional cash) Kinda pointless since a BB from a larger body means more places to train with minimal headaches in the future etc...

Mr Smith could have no additional affiliations if he so wanted. 

If he did decide to no longer be affiliated with any other organizations, further advancement would be rather iffy.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *WHHhhhoooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
> 
> Whats that noise?
> 
> It's the wind blowing through a dead horse's skull! :rofl:
> 
> Lets go about it this way as an illustration, or perhaps a question...
> 
> Mr. Smith is in a non-Korean country and he is non-Korean.  He is taking TKD classes and has reached the point where Sensei Jones feels Mr. Smith is ready to test for his 1st degree black belt.  Sensei Jones [or whatever the Korean word for instructor is] is a registered member of the Kukkiwon, lets say he's at 4th Dan.
> 
> Mr. Smith tests and passes wonderfully.
> 
> *Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?
> *Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?
> *Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?
> *Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?
> *What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?
> *If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?
> 
> This is just as an exampe.  Thank you for your considered inputs.
> :asian: *


It all boils down to who sanctions the rank.  Many reasons that it isn't wise to go that route.

First of all, if Jones is a registered member of Kukkiwon, then why what's the trouble of getting a dan certificate from Kukkiwon?  There's really no extra hassle really, and it will be worth it.  I don't understand that type of thinking.  Jones is a registered 4th dan, and for something as small as a 1st dan, a 4th degree does have the power to request Kukkiwon to promote someone to 1st dan.  It's not that hard.  Kukkiwon never says you're ready to test...  That's not their purpose.  It's the instructor that tells when they're ready, and that's AFTER, not BEFORE they meet all the requirements that Kukkiwon has, that's all.  If you're so eager to get a 1st dan at age 8, then you shouldn't worry about self-defense and go make your own organization and buy a belt off the internet.

Kukkiwon charges for their piece of paper?  No, they don't charge for the certificate, because it is earned.  You pay the instructor/school for testing fees and Kukkiwon for basic fees for all the data input, etc., kinda like a "handling" charge.  It's nothing really, maybe a bit over $100 at the most including everything (and the belt which is $20 itself) for a 1st dan.  But you never pay for a piece of paper.

If Mr. Smith decides not to belong to any organization, or if his belt is not internationally accepted as the one and true original, then he might as well just get a white belt and dye it black.  First of all, if he is not in any organization, then there is no standard.  No standard means it's worthless.  Plus, if Smith decided to train at another TKD school, and his belt is not recognized by a reputable source, then they might as well just give a white belt.

Remember, STANDARDS.  That's how rank works, with standards.  You just can't say you're a black belt when there's nobody to compare to.  One of the biggest reasons is that people can just manipulate their standards for the easy way out.

And I don't see how being Korean or non-Korean and what country you are residing in currently has ANY relevence to the topic.  It is true that Koreans have higher standards for black belts...  The reason is their location...  You're not that far away from Kukkiwon no matter where you are in South Korea and you test in front of the grandmasters, not some fraud, for 6th dan and up.  It's much more convenient than say when you're in the US, where you don't have to test in front of the Korean council until 8th and 9th dan.  Plus, until about ten years ago, the society had a lot of corporal punishment, and the instructors had no remorse for running you out.

But one is not restricted to when one can test, or what rank you can achieve based on ethnicity and nationality and residency.  Everyone has to meet the same basic requirements, and that's what makes it a STANDARD.

Anyone can get a 1st dan, but if you receive the belt because of Smith alone


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> *Just going in order on the ones I know...
> 
> Quite a few schools do offer BB's inside the school only. (Which is usually just a scam to pump the prospects for additional cash) Kinda pointless since a BB from a larger body means more places to train with minimal headaches in the future etc...
> 
> Mr Smith could have no additional affiliations if he so wanted.
> 
> If he did decide to no longer be affiliated with any other organizations, further advancement would be rather iffy. *


exactly


And if Jones really was a Kukkiwon 4th dan, then it would be no trouble of just getting the 1st dan certificate.  Hell, these days, one can get a 1st dan certificate from Kukkiwon in two or three years, training two days a week.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *We are neither equal when born nor equal in death.  We are all born with different abilities, talents, and tendencies.  We all die leaving behind lives of varying profundity, the legacies of which are profoundly different in character. *



Yes "we were" and "will be" equal. Physical abilities have nothing to do with it. We are all "differant" but we are all "one!"


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *See here. *



You are not only a man with an objective opinion but a man with an impressive looking cert., seriously it is beautiful!:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

Arnisador *so* does not look the way I had pictured him...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> **Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?*



Sure, why not.



> **Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?*



Of course.  If he wants the approval and authorization of that organization, if he wants them to recognize his rank, then he needs to join them.  Simple, huh? 



> **Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?*



Sure.  But he doesn't have any right to expect that they will recognize his achievements in his old school.  He could very well expect to start out wearing a white belt again...  That shouldn't matter, but to some folks it does.



> **Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?*



Sure, why not.  But his students will be his alone, and if they attempt to train at any other school, they are going to run the risk of being accepted as rank beginners...  If that is not an issue, then no worries.  If it is, then...  :idunno:



> **What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?*



Too much, if the thread in the TKD forum is any example...  They have been talking about having to pay up to $500 for their black belt test, which gets them a certificate, a belt with their name embroidered in Korean and English, and a spiffy membership card...  All for the low, low price of 5 Benjamins...



> **If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?*



No, but nobody has to acknowledge that it means squat, either.  If he is presenting himself as a TKD BB, there are typically certain standards (however low) of performance to rate that grade.  Without some form of verification of having met those standards (beyond his unaffiliated teacher saying he did), folks are going to question him.  That is when his personal skill will have to step in and bolster his claims.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yes "we were" and "will be" equal. Physical abilities have nothing to do with it. We are all "differant" but we are all "one!" *


I agree with both you and Phil.

I do not agree with the Marxist views on equality...  We are not equal in that way, each person is unique.  That's why we have so many martial arts styles, why some people get 1600 SAT scores, why some people get to play in professional sports, etc.

However, we are all equal in worth.  One cannot say that they are "better" than others.  People may be more influential than others, but everyone is equal in worth, and should be able to get the same rights...  That is until they do something like break the law.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Sure, why not.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course.  If he wants the approval and authorization of that organization, if he wants them to recognize his rank, then he needs to join them.  Simple, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  But he doesn't have any right to expect that they will recognize his achievements in his old school.  He could very well expect to start out wearing a white belt again...  That shouldn't matter, but to some folks it does.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, why not.  But his students will be his alone, and if they attempt to train at any other school, they are going to run the risk of being accepted as rank beginners...  If that is not an issue, then no worries.  If it is, then...  :idunno:
> 
> 
> 
> Too much, if the thread in the TKD forum is any example...  They have been talking about having to pay up to $500 for their black belt test, which gets them a certificate, a belt with their name embroidered in Korean and English, and a spiffy membership card...  All for the low, low price of 5 Benjamins...
> 
> 
> 
> No, but nobody has to acknowledge that it means squat, either.  If he is presenting himself as a TKD BB, there are typically certain standards (however low) of performance to rate that grade.  Without some form of verification of having met those standards (beyond his unaffiliated teacher saying he did), folks are going to question him.  That is when his personal skill will have to step in and bolster his claims.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *


The $500 is extra charges that the school tags on.

Here is the official stance from Kukkiwon



> Article 13 : Test Uniforms
> 
> Applicants for the examination shall wear the following during the promotion test
> 1) Official Dobok
> 2) Protectors(Trunk protectors, Headgear, Groin guard)
> 
> 
> Article 14 : Registration Fees
> 
> 1) Registration fees which are required to maintain the Dan records and issuance of Dan/Poom
> certificates will be fixed separately.
> 
> 2) Exemption or reduction of the registration fees will be allowed in the following cases, however,
> it should be approved by the president of Kukkiwon through a written report by the president of
> Member National Association.
> (1) Due to a poor economy
> (2) When political support is required
> (3) Disaster by calamity
> (4) Others, to be determined case by case
> 
> 3) One must pay all previous Dan fees if jumping a Dan is allowed.


When I got my 1st dan, it was only a $100 fee.  Inflation today probably makes it to around $120 at most.  And what's this jumping dan thing 3), that makes me go ick.


----------



## MartialArtist

Heh, I found out the only ways you can beat the age requirements on dan certification is...


1. Winner of Olympic Games 100% 
2. Winner of world level championships sponsored by WTF 80% 
3. Winner of continental level championships approved by WTF 60% 
4. One who received a medal from the president of the country for his devotion for development of Taekwondo 50% 


http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng9.asp?div=5

But they're easy to verify enough


----------



## Kirk

My school doesn't have any organization authorizing or recording
rank, so my purple belt, I guess isn't legit.  I could care less ... I
love what I'm learning, and I have the uptmost respect for my 
instructor.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *My school doesn't have any organization authorizing or recording
> rank, so my purple belt, I guess isn't legit.  I could care less ... I
> love what I'm learning, and I have the uptmost respect for my
> instructor. *




Kirk,

Wisdom, on this thread and subject? How dare you. 


Seriously my rank means nothing the two that were named to be the successors until our GM get better, (* Well he unfortunately Died  *) well one said I had no rank since he never saw me test, and the other said I would have to retest to make sure I deserved the rank. Well, all that being, I just left and am not a part of either of their own organizations or others. I consider myself a friend to many, yet I would have to say I have no rank. Oh Wait, in most Traditional FMA from the PI, (* Just as someone from there *) there is no rank given, you prove what you know. Hmmm, I guess I will just have to prove what I know, by either teaching good students or working with others. So, even though I have certificates signed by my GM, they mean nothing. 

Do I respect my instructors and those I train with? YES! I guess we have more things in common their Kirk. I even extend that respect to others (* in most cases *)  who train in martial arts.

Just my opinion from a non ranked - non associated person.

Have a Nice Day!


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *My school doesn't have any organization authorizing or recording
> rank, so my purple belt, I guess isn't legit.  I could care less ... I
> love what I'm learning, and I have the uptmost respect for my
> instructor. *


That's not the point though.

The topic is more on the people who operate schools that say rank doesn't matter, but advertise outlandish ranks.

If you operate a school, and then get one black belt after another, and advertise it by saying you're a 9th degree, that's where the trouble comes in.  Rank doesn't matter unless one advertises it.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Kirk,
> 
> Wisdom, on this thread and subject? How dare you.
> 
> 
> Seriously my rank means nothing the two that were named to be the successors until our GM get better, (* Well he unfortunately Died  *) well one said I had no rank since he never saw me test, and the other said I would have to retest to make sure I deserved the rank. Well, all that being, I just left and am not a part of either of their own organizations or others. I consider myself a friend to many, yet I would have to say I have no rank. Oh Wait, in most Traditional FMA from the PI, (* Just as someone from there *) there is no rank given, you prove what you know. Hmmm, I guess I will just have to prove what I know, by either teaching good students or working with others. So, even though I have certificates signed by my GM, they mean nothing.
> 
> Do I respect my instructors and those I train with? YES! I guess we have more things in common their Kirk. I even extend that respect to others (* in most cases *)  who train in martial arts.
> 
> Just my opinion from a non ranked - non associated person.
> 
> Have a Nice Day!  *


The biggest problem comes into play with Japanese and Korean arts.  People think dan rank is what makes a good teacher, but the average consumer doesn't know what Kukkiwon is, the average person looks to see who has the highest numbers and trains with them...  Bad mistake.  Busting frauds gets rid of outlandish claims on the internet, and busting outlandish rank claims on the internet busts frauds.


----------



## A.R.K.

Oh, actually I think Kirk and Rich have excellent points.

In order for Mr. Smith, our TKD BB to have legitimacy he needs to join the Kukkiwon which allows people to get BB's pretty easy...



> Hell, these days, one can get a 1st dan certificate from Kukkiwon in two or three years, training two days a week.



And allows you to jump rankings for the right price...



> And what's this jumping dan thing 3), that makes me go ick.



I'm I reading this right?  How is that NOT buying rank?


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Oh, actually I think Kirk and Rich have excellent points.
> 
> In order for Mr. Smith, our TKD BB to have legitimacy he needs to join the Kukkiwon which allows people to get BB's pretty easy...
> 
> 
> 
> And allows you to jump rankings for the right price...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm I reading this right?  How is that NOT buying rank?
> 
> *


Jumping rank - as in skipping a rank.

It's done very rarely after I've called, and it's only done for the lower dan levels.  And you have to be an exceptional case.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Yeah riight!  I  might  buy such a lame cover up from a 6 Gulp because the kid might not know any better.
> 
> A legitimate 6th dan in TKD has invested a lots of blood and sweat , and years, to get there and is an accomplished member of the organization.  He would have 10 Gulp certificates  and 6 Dan certificates from his organizations. He would have been tested by a team of MASTERS and even GRANDMASTERS in TKD.  There is no chance in hell that he DOES NOT know how to spell Kukkiwon! There is no chance in hell that he does not know if his certificates worth cow chip or not. It makes NO FREAKING SENSE WHATSOEVER!  (That is like Mike Tyson didn't not know if Don King is in the boxing promotion business!) The absurdity is sky high, unless, OF COURSE that he is NOT of KUKKIWON!
> 
> By the way, who promoted you to 6th Dan, DAC?  You ought to know this one! He has to be at least an 8th DAN Master in TKD.  I am sure Kukkiwon must has his John Hancock listed prominently. Unless, of course, the guy is NOT from Kukkiwon!  Then it would all make sense.
> 
> Is there by any chance there is another Kukkiwon in the Middle East too, DAC? *





CHUEFENG,

the above quote is from one of the posters I refered to earlier as acting childish, and making himself look foolish.


kenethku.

I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me and would also like that proof, due to the respect that they show even in their doubting me they have received thier proof, you however I will prove nothing to you!

You must give respect in order to recieve it, and I have showed much respect to everyone on this forum(accept the one night I went off)

lol :rofl:


----------



## Matt Stone

*Rich* - 

I think that, in regards to FMA in general, and the farce after the death of GM Presas in particular, yours is an example of what happens when legitimate grading is given without sufficient documentation to support it (it isn't a question of its authenticity, only a question of supporting after GM Presas' untimely passing).  I doubt that anyone directly connected to GM Presas that has no interest in the political squabbling would really question your rank or skills...  I know I wouldn't.  But yours isn't really the posterchild of MA rank claims that we have been speaking about...  You aren't running around claiming to be the Great Grandmaster of Modern Arnis (that is someone else from what I have heard...  ).

*Kirk* - 

You train in a school.  Your teacher promoted you to X grade.  Fine.  You don't belong to a big organization.  Fine.  If you _were_ to claim some grade bequeathed upon you by your teacher, again, simple enough to prove...  We go to your teacher.  If your teacher has already been known to operate a small, quiet school, no worries.  If, however, you or he claim affiliation with a large, well known organization, but are unable to provide proof...  Well, that's something else entirely....



> *Jumping rank - as in skipping a rank.*



It is relatively uncommon, but I have to admit - I did it twice.  When I first started in Yili, we had 10 levels below black sash (the first grade was Novice with no sash; Levels 1 - 3 wore a white sash; Levels 4 - 6 wore a yellow sash; Levels 7 - 9 wore a blue sash), 3 black sash grades, and 3 red sash grades.

When I was testing to go from Level 2 White to Level 3 White, I was instead promoted to Level 4 Yellow.  Likewise, when I tested for Level 5 Yellow, I was instead promoted to Level 7 Blue!  I tried to turn that one down, but our teacher has a habit of stuffing it down your throat no matter what...

However, I also must admit, I don't recall it occurring to too many others.  There _were_ others, but I don't remember there having been too many...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Disco

I believe you mean well and your trying to have some meaningful input to the discussion, but your tap danceing in a mine field. 

Kukkiwon - Main gym in Korea, clearing house for WTF Dan certification. Many Korean Masters can and will issue rank certifications in the particular style they teach. These certifications are recognized internationally. The only thing a Kukkiwon certification does for you is allows you to try for the Olympics. It's stated on their web site that you must be Kukkiwon certified to compete. The ITF based in Canada has no affiliation to the Kukkiwon and their certifications are recognized internationally. AAU now has TKD Dan certification and it too is recognized. There are others, but the main point is that the Kukkiwon, although viewed as the top organization, is not the endall in TKD for recognition. Want a list of other's, go to -------
http://www.martialartsresource.com/Hoshinsool-online/hkdorgs.htm 

Politics run amuck within the higher rankings in this country. We saw that last night with the USTW posting. As far as skipping / jumping ranks, it dosen't happen alot, but it does happen and not just at the low levels. I've seen it, but there's no way I could prove it. If I'm not mistaken, the last time I inquired (about 10 yrs ago). Rank up to 4th in America you could test in front of 2 Masters at 6th or above. For 5th Dan and above you had to go to the Kukkiwon to test. If that requirement has changed, then I stand corrected. But at the time, it was in place to reduce the amount of non-koreans seeking higher rankings. Most people could not afford to take the trip and plus the fact, as you pointed out, that any mistake in testing would result in failure. If you had deep pockets, you could go far.

Sorry, getting way to wordy, I'll just leave it here. There's way to much that can be gotten into. Surfice to say, politics + money = bad martial arts feelings.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *See here. *



If the Sheriff and friends LEAD BY EXAMPLE   you can see the Dans, others wise thats it for now 

http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/homepage.htm


:asian:


----------



## SteelShadow

I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test?


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> *If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?*



Well, if he claims 1st degree, he would still have the instructor who gave it to him to point to. If he can not show any orginizaition who his rank is registered, _and_ he refuses to give contact info for his teacher, then you can be safe in saying that he has no more proof of 1st dan than Ashida Kim does of being a ninja master.

And if he _originally_ claims to be a XXX- orginization black belt, only to have someone else call the orginization to find out the story is not true, then it is fairly pathetic to see them start to whine that they were not talking about _the_ xxx- orginization and that rank really does not matter since they are such macho studs.

A lot of us have been laughing over that one off line.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *kenethku.
> 
> I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me and would also like that proof, due to the respect that they show even in their doubting me they have received thier proof, you however I will prove nothing to you!*



Hmmm, 24 hours ago you did not know how to scan your certificates. Glad to see you solved the problem so fast.

But who are the two folks you sent them to? If they are truely independent people like Arnisador and back up what you say, then we have figured out a way to protect privacy while still gaining trust. Of course, if they are unknown people, the problem with trust  will still be there.

I can imagine you not wnaitng to help someone because you are mad at them. But it just seems logiacal that you would be served better by posting your certificates in public while saying, "See! Neener, neener, neener! Don't you look like an idiot for doubting me!"


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Hmmm, 24 hours ago you did not know how to scan your certificates. Glad to see you solved the problem so fast.
> 
> But who are the two folks you sent them to? If they are truely independent people like Arnisador and back up what you say, then we have figured out a way to protect privacy while still gaining trust. Of course, if they are unknown people, the problem with trust  will still be there.
> 
> I can imagine you not wnaitng to help someone because you are mad at them. But it just seems logiacal that you would be served better by posting your certificates in public while saying, "See! Neener, neener, neener! Don't you look like an idiot for doubting me!" *



I went to my fathers house and scanned them in tonight and then e-mailed them to myself so I could inturn forward them to others.

I'm sure once the smoke settles everyone will be satisfied with the two I have chosen, If arnisador or any other mod for that matter want to see the proof they can send me a PM with thier e-mail address and I will be glad to send them.

I dont want to post them for all as their are many people here that somtimes act a little immature.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!! *



I think that _if_ anyone claimed to have a rank in this forum, then the above statement to be correct. But if they did not, then I do not think they should have to.

In my case, I have never said what rank I have, but I have mentioned that I can read and write Japanese. As such, maybe I should provide a way of proving what I say that anyone can check for themselves. And you do not have to worry about it being a photo shop creation posted on the net.

I believe that any Japanese consulate can confirm the fact that I hold the highest rating the Japanese goverment tests for in Japanese as a second language. (1st kyu). You know my name, and the number on the top left of the certificate is 1D84293 and on the right top they are 1121972. The test was taken in Tokyo and the certificate issued on 2-7-00.

See! No one has to take my word for it. They can go to a consulate and confirm this for themsleves. At least I think that is the way they can do it. If the consulate will not confirm the score, then I could have saved myself a hell of a lot of trouble by just making a copy of this thing and listing it on my resume with no fear of being caught.

In the same light, if someone goes to the trouble of getting a rank, it only makes sense that they would be willing to prove it to others. If they don't care about rank, then they will never go tot he trouble of getting it in the first place. So I have troule understanding the idea that someone can claim rank and _then_ say they do not think it is important when asked to prove it.


----------



## Disco

I don't think many feel it's OK to pay such high fee's, it's just that it's kind of a catch 22. You spend all that time training as you pointed out and for most people, depending on what part of the country your in, your more than likely stuck in the only game in town. The problem from my viewpoint is primarily found with WTF TKD schools. I'm sure there are other participants drawing from the well, but they took their lead from TKD. Most people being trusting and having no conflicting information available, believe what's being presented to them. It's only when they've been exposed to the other side that they realize they've been taken advantage of. Some don't want to start over somewhere else. Other's just quit, while other's just accept it and continue to pay.
I believe the same way you do, but these schools are getting fat and I don't think their going to change anytime soon.
:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I went to my fathers house and scanned them in tonight and then e-mailed them to myself so I could inturn forward them to others.
> 
> I'm sure once the smoke settles everyone will be satisfied with the two I have chosen,*



Wait a second. In your last post before this you said, "I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me"

I _have_ e-mailed. Past tense. Have you sent them out or not? And who are you sending them to? Please give us their names so we can determine if they are trustworthy sorts or not for ourselves. If Arnisador is one, then he is a person almost anyone can trust. But if we have never heard of these two, you will have a much worse time of convincing others.


----------



## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Wait a second. In your last post before this you said, "I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me"
> 
> I have e-mailed. Past tense. Have you sent them out or not? And who are you sending them to? Please give us their names so we can determine if they are trustworthy sorts or not for ourselves. If Arnisador is one, then he is a person almost anyone can trust. But if we have never heard of these two, you will have a much worse time of convincing others. *




Don,

one has already recieved the certs. but I dont think they have examined them yet and the other I am waiting to respond back to me via PM so I can send them out.

Trust me and be patient after they have had a chance to see them they will be revealed along with their opinions.

If arnisador wants to see them and report back he is more than welcome but I need a PM with his e-mail address I do not know any other way to send them.

:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Seig I have would agree with you in general but look at who they are.  For example Ric Martin I think is around 7th-8th.  Frank Goreman is probably 8th.  Joe Lewis, Mike McGann, Bill Blaise, Jim Graden etc.  Not exactly mcdojos.  Ric & Frank tested under Kanie and/or Kammie personally in Okinawa.
> 
> Your reference to politics is accurate though, and a sad truth unfortunately.
> 
> :asian: *


 I know a lot of those guys and would also have to add Bill Ferkile and John Prevatt.  But I was talking about people like Rich Alford, Bill Clase, Carl Stone, Jim Lemmin, and a whole host of others.  Mr. Martin is a hell of a good guy.  He catches a lot of flack because of the facility he has built.  No judegements there, just a statement.  While I do not know the Graden's personally, I have had the opportunity to deal with several of their alleged black belts, I was not left with a favorable impression of them.  Don Wilson is also from the general vicinity.  I am not stating that there are no good high ranking black belts, I am stating that there are a lot of no good allegedly high ranking black belts.
I trained under or with a lot of these men at one time or another in one capacity or another.  All were goodcmartial artists, ability wise.  The issues occurred when the mutual promotional society began.  Not all, such as the ones you listed, are in this club, but a great many are.  I had the "audacity" back in 2000 to get into a disagreement with a guy sporting a 6th.  He tried to pull rank on me and then when I asked him how he got to be a 6th when I remember teaching him as a green belt, he left.  No, I will not name him.  The real issue is this, there are a lot of great black belts out there.  Some have high rank, Ric Martin, some do not, Berto Friedman.  But the bozos claiming Uber-Rank out number them 5 to 1.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Isn't kenpo and kempo the same thing?  From my understanding, it is just a different translation from kanji to English. *


Basically, you are correct.  As I understand it and was taught, the Kenpo with the N is referring more to the Chinese heritage wheras the M is referring to the Japanese heritage. 





> *I'm not saying that Kenpo is just Japanese.  Ed Parker did a lot of studying with Chinese systems.  However, the term American kenpo karate did not come out of the blue.
> 
> 
> Like I said before, I do not deny Chinese influence.  Look at the logo, even that has Chinese influence. *


We agree:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Trust me and be patient after they have had a chance to see them they will be revealed along with their opinions.*



Ok, fair enough. It would have been better if you had announced it after they had a chance to look at it, but it seems fair to give you a _reasonable_ amount of time. 

But I want to point out one problem. Why should we trust these two people? I am not talking about just the idea that they may be screen names set up by you, but rather that they are in a position to know that the certificates given to you are indeed legitimate? I would offer to look over them, but I do not know Korean and do not know much about the arts of Korea. So, how do we know that these people know more than I about the matter.

As I see it, if you post it in public, then many people can see it and eventually a person with a reputation of knowing about these things can comment on it. I may not know the situation, but there are people I am sure I would believe if they said it was real. Since you do not want to post it in public, how about finding a person whose reputation is beyond question and whose knowledge about the matter is acknowledged by most?

And I should point out that this thread is not supposed to be about one person, persons or their credentials. But I think that by showing how we can prove things to everyone's satisfaction we can show that as long as you have the honest desire to prove a claim you make- you can. Those that do not want to prove things will only make excuses. I hope that by using myself as an example I have shown how claims of even language ability can be proven independently.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *That's not the point though.
> 
> The topic is more on the people who operate schools that say rank doesn't matter, but advertise outlandish ranks.
> 
> If you operate a school, and then get one black belt after another, and advertise it by saying you're a 9th degree, that's where the trouble comes in.  Rank doesn't matter unless one advertises it. *


What about guys like me who are only thirds?


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *I think that if anyone claimed to have a rank in this forum, then the above statement to be correct. But if they did not, then I do not think they should have to.
> 
> In my case, I have never said what rank I have, but I have mentioned that I can read and write Japanese. As such, maybe I should provide a way of proving what I say that anyone can check for themselves. And you do not have to worry about it being a photo shop creation posted on the net.
> 
> I believe that any Japanese consulate can confirm the fact that I hold the highest rating the Japanese goverment tests for in Japanese as a second language. (1st kyu). You know my name, and the number on the top left of the certificate is 1D84293 and on the right top they are 1121972. The test was taken in Tokyo and the certificate issued on 2-7-00.
> 
> See! No one has to take my word for it. They can go to a consulate and confirm this for themsleves. At least I think that is the way they can do it. If the consulate will not confirm the score, then I could have saved myself a hell of a lot of trouble by just making a copy of this thing and listing it on my resume with no fear of being caught.
> 
> In the same light, if someone goes to the trouble of getting a rank, it only makes sense that they would be willing to prove it to others. If they don't care about rank, then they will never go tot he trouble of getting it in the first place. So I have troule understanding the idea that someone can claim rank and then say they do not think it is important when asked to prove it. *



Its not really about if you claimed a certain rank, now prove it. There have been several  people who hounded a couple individuals and expected them to "prove themselves."

No problem but if one needs to prove themself then both sides should prove themselves. Thats all. Show them "WHO" they are proving themselves to. Fair is fair.

I think self policing can be "productive" is it is done respectfully but I don't see that over the last several threads. My self included, but I am hard headed as others but enouh is enough.:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
> But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test? *


What about a guy like me?  I have a small school, 30 students.  I have to pay rent, electric, phone, etc.. Dues cover my overhead.  I make nothing.  Should I give away the belt?  It does cost me money for the belt, shipping charges, plus I have to take the time to put together orders.  I also belong to an International Organization.  I have to pay the organization every time I promote.  Should I continue to runa  business and teach people for hours, days, weeks, months, and years for no recompense?  I work a full time job to support myself and my family and occassionally the school.  I'm glad you are able to give away belts as if they have no value.  And before you flame me, let me explain that statement.  Value is perceived, not in blood, sweat and tears, but money.  People attach more value to something when they ahve also paid for it.  Unfortunate, but true.  I wish I did not have to charge for belts or testing, but I cannot afford not to.


----------



## Matt Stone

I don't think the issue was charging for testing, charging for belts, etc., but rather the exorbitant fees some organizations and schools charge...

There is a thread in the TKD forum where they were discussing how much they have all paid for their testing to black belt...  One guy paid over $450 for his test, and all he got was an embroidered belt, a certificate and a card.  Sure, the belt can be pricy, and a certificate can also be valuable, but $450.00???  

I don't think so.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I don't think the issue was charging for testing, charging for belts, etc., but rather the exorbitant fees some organizations and schools charge...*



Actually, isn't the theme of this thread about people who make claims on the internet?  

If someone does not like the fees, trouble, etc in getting rank, then I have no problem with it if they decline. But why are they screaming in the middle of  a thread about people who make claims and can not back them up? If they do not want to pay for a rank, fine- then don't take the rank. But if they claim to have recieved a rank- then they have to prove it either by revealing the orginization it is registered with or by having the person who issued the rank back up their claims.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  Its not really about if you claimed a certain rank, now prove it. There have been several  people who hounded a couple individuals and expected them to "prove themselves." No problem but if one needs to prove themself then both sides should prove themselves. Thats all. Show them "WHO" they are proving themselves to. Fair is fair. *



As one of the hounds on those threads I can safely say you missed the point.
The point was someone had claimed a certain rank(s), they were questioned about it, and refused to support their claim(s).
Whoever is asking the question is irrelevant. Why should someone asking a simple question have to prove themselves.unless they are making claims as well.


I rarely meet MA people that have a problem with telling you who they trained under and from which organization they earned dan rank in. (Actually only on the internet do I meet such people..hence the purpose of this thread) 
Therefore, when I do meet someone that does have a problem with answering very basic, and quite normal, questions regarding training RED FLAGS start to pop upand I cant help but ask why is it such a problem? 
Actually, I dont even know what rank most of my friends in the MA are..they never said and I never asked. 
I could tell you whom they train with or have trained with but I never really cared to ask them about rankand most never asked me.
However, if one of them popped off and said I got X rank in X art its only common to ask from whom did they study and from what group did they get rank in.
And if one of them claimed a very high rank in a rather obscure art I would either laugh my butt off thinking it a joke or cut off their beer supply figuring they were drunk out of their skull.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!! *




Yeah I agreeI think everybody claiming to be a master on a website should post their rank.however, so far not too many on this thread have done so..and after all isnt that the topic of this thread Claims on the Internet


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yes "we were" and "will be" equal. Physical abilities have nothing to do with it. We are all "differant" but we are all "one!" *




You're right.........Physical abilites have nothing to do with the Martial Arts


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *You're right.........Physical abilites have nothing to do with the Martial Arts *


 
My original quote was that we were born equal and will die equal and then sharp phil "interpeted" it as  "physical abilities 

So this time I'm right


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *As one of the hounds on those threads I can safely say you missed the point.
> The point was someone had claimed a certain rank(s), they were questioned about it, and refused to support their claim(s).
> Whoever is asking the question is irrelevant. Why should someone asking a simple question have to prove themselves.unless they are making claims as well.
> 
> 
> I rarely meet MA people that have a problem with telling you who they trained under and from which organization they earned dan rank in. (Actually only on the internet do I meet such people..hence the purpose of this thread)
> Therefore, when I do meet someone that does have a problem with answering very basic, and quite normal, questions regarding training RED FLAGS start to pop upand I cant help but ask why is it such a problem?
> Actually, I dont even know what rank most of my friends in the MA are..they never said and I never asked.
> I could tell you whom they train with or have trained with but I never really cared to ask them about rankand most never asked me.
> However, if one of them popped off and said I got X rank in X art its only common to ask from whom did they study and from what group did they get rank in.
> And if one of them claimed a very high rank in a rather obscure art I would either laugh my butt off thinking it a joke or cut off their beer supply figuring they were drunk out of their skull. *



Bro, first don't think I don't like you or anybody in hear, I've just adopted Yiliquans1's inyaface attitude. I've always been an undergog, it fits me well.

Second, I know first hand of someone on said site that isn't what they claimed, but I don't care. If you floowed the thread you could of figured it out, but i really don't care and the best thing about this thread has been the interesting drama.

Really, I think that if dacflorida is legit and he is arks student "or equal" then no feathers need to be ruffled, but it is fun to watch y'all and if you haven't noticed yet, I do like to instigate.

Robert, I have learned a lot from you! You should get on the mods about the technical forum and contribute!:asian:


----------



## SteelShadow

Just curious You seem to have alot of knowledge on many different types of arts .What rank are you and what orginizations do you belong to?I am genuinly curious..


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *Just curious You seem to have alot of knowledge on many different types of arts .What rank are you and what orginizations do you belong to?I am genuinly curious.. *



My rank and school are recognized by the NCMA. The other arts that I represent are all works in progress. 

As far as my rank, I was trained at one person and certified by another. Even though I was certified by someone whose teacher was a student with my instructors teacher, many people have said that it was not "same school" like  I claimed, but the bottom line was that I knew the material and was certified. 

My site does not go into all of my background, just what I'm building upon at the moment but eventually it reflect all of my training off and on dating back to 1973.

http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/home.html
:asian:


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## A.R.K.

Martial Artist,

In regards to the Kukkiwon allowing Dan jumping, skipping or whatever....:shrug: 



> It's done very rarely after I've called, and it's only done for the lower dan levels. And you have to be an exceptional case.



The part of the Kukkiwon website that you posted indicates that the individual needs to pay for the rank skipped in addition to the one sought.  It would seem the _exceptional cases_ are those in which the individual has money to line the coffers of the Kukkiwon with.  And _rarely_  is a relative term indeed.  Is it _rare_  because many legitimate TKD practitioners simply have to much integrity to do so or that they simply lack the funds making it....rare?

And this is the organization that a TKD practitioner needs to belong to so that their Dan is legitimate?????  Sounds like 'pay us money and we'll recognize you' to me  

How about an organization that recognizes you for free....Now tha would sound  more legitimate to me.  No politics, no $$$ incentive...just plain ole respect of ability and time commited!

Now theres a novel thought.  Seems to me that I've DONE that and have gotten grief over it.  Everyone has different sets of values I suppose.



> It is true that Koreans have higher standards for black belts



Hey...sounds good...



> Hell, these days, one can get a 1st dan certificate from Kukkiwon in two or three years, training two days a week



Doesn't sound very high to me  

And you say I need to belong to an organization such as this in my particular disciplines for legitimacy??? :shrug: 

I'll stick with the ones that have checked me out thoroughly without $ interest and accepted me amoung their honored ranks.

Don Roley,



> Well, if he claims 1st degree, he would still have the instructor who gave it to him to point to. If he can not show any orginizaition who his rank is registered, and he refuses to give contact info for his teacher, then you can be safe in saying that he has no more proof of 1st dan than Ashida Kim does of being a ninja master



I have given contact information to quite a few here.  Just not some.  Mutual respect goes a long way towards free flow of information...and has.  



> And if he originally claims to be a XXX- orginization black belt, only to have someone else call the orginization to find out the story is not true, then it is fairly pathetic to see them start to whine that they were not talking about the xxx- orginization and that rank really does not matter since they are such macho studs.



Does that apply to anyone here???  Not that I know of.  I've never claimed to be a member of any Okinawan organization that _claims_  to govern a Chinese style    And if I knew of any Chinese organizations that were affiliated with that particular discipline I would have sought them out long ago.

As I've said repeatedly, my Pangainoon was an off-shoot of what was originally Uechi.  My Dan is just a _lowly little school Dan_  based on what I've been taught since the early 70's from various men WAY above me in ability from around the world.  I can't boast of a home organization...cause I don't have one....cause I focused on training rather than organizational membership.  My bad, and one thats caused some grief, but so be it.  

What good would it do to post my last instructors name?  Nobody will have heard of him.  He's gone now anyway.  However, I have posted the names of all the organizations to which I have chosen to be affiliated with.  As I've lived in Europe and the Middle East, most of them are located in those countries.  Once again, feel free to contact them as you wish.  They've checked me out as completely as one can be checked out and 'recognized me'.  If your not satisfied with that....who cares?  

[And alot of us have been laughing at you as well.  Your E-budo has caught up with you  ]  You wanna keep the Die hard batteries in the dead horse, feel free.  Don't wanna be my _buddy_  I can live with that as well.  However, if and when you can concentrate on stuff other than my wall candy...maybe we can contribute to each other.  Now wouldn't that be a nice change? :asian: 

Seig,

I agree there is good with the bad.  And just to be completely open, although my _little insignificant school rank_  puts me amoung them on paper, I freely admit that as an *artist*  I am no where near their caliber.  As far as real world experience...that is quite another story.  

I know I missed something or someone...my apologies.

:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *And this is the organization that a TKD practitioner needs to belong to so that their Dan is legitimate?????  Sounds like 'pay us money and we'll recognize you' to me
> 
> How about an organization that recognizes you for free....Now tha would sound  more legitimate to me.  No politics, no $$$ incentive...just plain ole respect of ability and time commited!*



Well, if you do not wish to be a member of an orginization that is your choice. But once you make a claim of being with an orginization it is your responsibility to back up your claims. And the problem with many free orginization you find on th internet is that they have very low standards and basically just serve as a means of promoting the reps of the members. Like if me and my friends got together and formed the "World Orginization of Master Teachers." and then listed it on our web sites. The title sounds fgood to new folks, and with a lot of people we wouldseem to be legitimate. But it is still jsut a few guys with too much time on our hands trying to get respect from others.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *I have given contact information to quite a few here.  Just not some.  Mutual respect goes a long way towards free flow of information...and has. *



Well, this thread is not supposed to be about any one person or their claims, but since you have once again put your foot in a shoe and announced that it fits, let us look at the above statement.

Who have you shared information with? Why is the name of your teacher such a  big secret?  I would think people would be proud of their teacher, not act like they are ashamed and hide the information.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *As I've said repeatedly, my Pangainoon was an off-shoot of what was originally Uechi.*



When did you start saying that? I can not seem to find any reference to you saying so until after RyuShiKan checked with the well known Pangainoon in Okinawa and finding out that you could not be the rank you claimed with them.

So it is kind of like someone talking about their law degree from Havard, and when someone checks with the famous university saying, "Oh I never said I was a member of _that_school. I am talking about Bob Harvad's school of law." And of course, then refuses to give any information about Bob Harvard's school of law.

In a martial arts forum, saing Pangainoon is going to naturally make people assume you are talking about the orginization in Okinawa. If I could find a reference to you saying that your orginization was not the one in Okinawa before RyuShiKan made his call, yo might have a better chance of convincing me. That and the fact that you can not seem to give any information about the Pangainoon you do claim to be a member of. Imagine how that looks to the outsider.


----------



## A.R.K.

> But once you make a claim of being with an orginization it is your responsibility to back up your claims.



Again, who does that apply to?  



> Who have you shared information with?



Quite a few people in the chatroom and PM's/emails.  Kaith is one in particular.



> When did you start saying that?



Quite some time ago....



> 1972 - began Uechi-ryu and trained to Green belt. Due to changes in the systems hierarchy in Okinawa different factions spit off. Continued on in Pangai-noon off shoot as well as boxing [Grandfather was Golden gloves].



Posted 2.19.2003 at 7:38 est in the thread Post your Curriculum Vitae



> If I could find a reference to you saying that your orginization was not the one in Okinawa before RyuShiKan made his call, yo might have a better chance of convincing me.



Convinced?  

Not trying to con anyone here Don.  It is merely a school recognized belt on an off-shoot.  If that doesn't meet with your standards...then as I've said, disregard it.  Doesn't make me some evil martial arts monster.  

Peace.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *You are not only a man with an objective opinion but a man with an impressive looking cert., seriously it is beautiful!*



Thanks! They were designed by Ed Parker, Jr. and yes they really are something! For a better picture, see here:
http://www.wmarnis.com/fedblackbelts.html


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Arnisador so does not look the way I had pictured him...*



Try not to look directly at me--the beauty can be blinding.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *IIf arnisador or any other mod for that matter want to see the proof they can send me a PM *



The official position of MartialTalk is: We don't police our members' ranks. Hence, there is certainly no need for this.

If anyone would like to send me something they may do so (arnisador at martialtalk.com), but MartialTalk is officially disinterested in this type of thing.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *You should get on the mods about the technical forum and contribute! *



Technical forum?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Thanks! They were designed by Ed Parker, Jr. and yes they really are something! For a better picture, see here:
> http://www.wmarnis.com/fedblackbelts.html *



Yes, Ed Jr. is a pretty damn good artist. He has done Hanshi Angels portrait too.:asian:


----------



## arnisador

I am familiar with cases of skipping a rank that I believe to be legitimate involving instructors who ceased being involved with an art publicly, due to politics, but continued to train and teach privately for many years. When they returned to the public scene they were grossly under-ranked for their abilities and time served. It's easy to say "you bowed out, your loss" but in the real world one wants to be welcoming to those who want to rejoin the fold!

However, jumping someone who is active but very skilled seems iffy to me. One could always grant a waiver on the minimum time to the next rank instead.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *In a martial arts forum, saing Pangainoon is going to naturally make people assume you are talking about the orginization in Okinawa. *



I didn't think that--I knew how multi-focal Pangainoon's rebirth was as Uechi splintered, plus those earlier on who had tried to 'recreate' the historical Pangainoon.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yes, Ed Jr. is a pretty damn good artist. He has done Hanshi Angels portrait too. *



He did one of Mr. Hartman, who recently commissioned one of Prof. Remy Presas from him:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7912


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *I believe you mean well and your trying to have some meaningful input to the discussion, but your tap danceing in a mine field.
> 
> Kukkiwon - Main gym in Korea, clearing house for WTF Dan certification. Many Korean Masters can and will issue rank certifications in the particular style they teach. These certifications are recognized internationally. The only thing a Kukkiwon certification does for you is allows you to try for the Olympics. It's stated on their web site that you must be Kukkiwon certified to compete. The ITF based in Canada has no affiliation to the Kukkiwon and their certifications are recognized internationally. AAU now has TKD Dan certification and it too is recognized. There are others, but the main point is that the Kukkiwon, although viewed as the top organization, is not the endall in TKD for recognition. Want a list of other's, go to -------
> http://www.martialartsresource.com/Hoshinsool-online/hkdorgs.htm
> 
> Politics run amuck within the higher rankings in this country. We saw that last night with the USTW posting. As far as skipping / jumping ranks, it dosen't happen alot, but it does happen and not just at the low levels. I've seen it, but there's no way I could prove it. If I'm not mistaken, the last time I inquired (about 10 yrs ago). Rank up to 4th in America you could test in front of 2 Masters at 6th or above. For 5th Dan and above you had to go to the Kukkiwon to test. If that requirement has changed, then I stand corrected. But at the time, it was in place to reduce the amount of non-koreans seeking higher rankings. Most people could not afford to take the trip and plus the fact, as you pointed out, that any mistake in testing would result in failure. If you had deep pockets, you could go far.
> 
> Sorry, getting way to wordy, I'll just leave it here. There's way to much that can be gotten into. Surfice to say, politics + money = bad martial arts feelings.
> :asian: *


Ummm...  Most ITF branches, such as ITF Korea, or ITF USA, and most schools, get their dan certificates from Kukkiwon.

Anyway, on testing fees:
1st degree $100 
2nd degree $150 
3rd degree $200
4th degree $300
5th degree $400
6th degree $550
7th degree $350
8th degree $400
9th degree $450

I would say the testing fees are reasonable.  As for going to Korea to test for high ranks, did you read the requirements?  Going to Korea for foreigners are for 8th and 9th dan ONLY, so I don't know what you are talking about.  Anyway, for testing for 8th and 9th dan, which are considered VERY HIGH, a group of few, going to Korea should not be a nuisance.  People should look at it as an oppourtunity.  It's not like you go there for something like a 3rd dan, but I think it's reasonable to go to Korea if you're in a Korean art, or Japan for a Japanese art and so on, if you're testing for what is considered grandmaster status, wouldn't you say?

What do you mean ITF Canada's certificates are known internationally?  I don't know about ITF Canada, but most ITF schools in the USA get their certificates from Kukkiwon.  Most schools are also affiliated with Moo Duk Kwan, but still get their certificates for TKD (not TSD) from Kukkiwon.  If ITF Canada gave its own certificates, I can't see it being more known other than nationally, because an ITF Canada certificate would just be "meh" in Korea, or anywhere for that matter.  Many schools would "accept" it meaning they'll let you keep your rank, but that's what you can expect.


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## MartialArtist

And if I'm not mistaken, Kukkiwon is for black belt matters only.  You need a Kukkiwon BB to compete in those tag sparring competitions...  Maybe they are the standard?  It goes to the idea of standards again.  Unofficial and private standards will just cause confusion, and in many instances, are an easy way to claim a 9th dan.  Kukkiwon has more ties with the WTF, but many ITF (which I personally like better as an organization) get their dan certificates from Kukkiwon because it's more widely accepted, and EVERYONE goes through the same requirements.


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## KennethKu

I think you mean WTF.

The original ITF would not want to have anything to do with WTF/KuKKiwon any more than WTF/Kukkiwon wants to have anything to do with ITF.  Gen Choi was considered a traitor to ROK.  ITF certs are NOT issued by Kukkiwon.

Now that there are several ITF's, the situation is a mess. The ITF under Master Choi is considered the legitimate ITF. The one hijacked by a stooge from North Korea is using that ITF to play political footsy with WTF/Kukkiwon.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
> But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test? *


That is one problem I have.

However, current fees aren't really that expensive, and if you do have financial problems, people can let a few things slide.

The biggest problem I have with fees are that schools add their own "charges".  I didn't know that the cost of plywood or some cheap wood, a few hours of your life examining your own students, and such amounted to more than $200.  A small fee for handling your certificate and such should be paid, but I would never pay over $200 for a small thing.  Maybe for a high rank dan testing, but otherwise...


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *I don't think many feel it's OK to pay such high fee's, it's just that it's kind of a catch 22. You spend all that time training as you pointed out and for most people, depending on what part of the country your in, your more than likely stuck in the only game in town. The problem from my viewpoint is primarily found with WTF TKD schools. I'm sure there are other participants drawing from the well, but they took their lead from TKD. Most people being trusting and having no conflicting information available, believe what's being presented to them. It's only when they've been exposed to the other side that they realize they've been taken advantage of. Some don't want to start over somewhere else. Other's just quit, while other's just accept it and continue to pay.
> I believe the same way you do, but these schools are getting fat and I don't think their going to change anytime soon.
> :asian: *


I don't really care for the politics between WTF and ITF and all that.  WTF is more sport oriented and the ITF is more combat oriented these days, but that is not always the case.  The best school I know of is WTF, but in general, ITF is more open to combat...  Just look at how they differ in their sport-style tournaments.

But I do believe there should be some standard that is the same anywhere you go.  Kukkiwon is that standard.  You don't have to be in the WTF, or the ITF, or such to get a Kukkiwon dan rank.  You just need to test under Kukkiwon conditions and meet the requirements, as simple as that.  Well, not as simple as that, but it's not they exclude anybody.

It would be unfair for someone who've been training for 25 years to only have a 4th dan, and have one guy who's been training for 5 years and has a 4th dan also, provided that both the people put it their all and were dedicated equally.  Or, what's worse is if you have some 8 year old kid with a 2nd dan, who hasn't been going three days a week.  That doesn't work.  Then you have the other guy, who's been under the strictest of teachers.  One mess-up or one sign of bad technique during anything would be failure.  He only has a 1st dan after training for 5 years, training for hours daily, five or six times a week.

That's why there should be a standard.  There is no standard for skill, but for rank, there has to be a standard.  Like in the military, a colonel doesn't have to be the best tactical guy out there (since he has other skills that landed him that commissioned position).  As a 2nd Lt., I shot better with my pistol and rifle than my superiors when though I was less experienced, was more adept at armed and unarmed combat than them, was a better strategist...  And I was what they called a "computer geek" in the military.  And also, there was a measly private, the normal enlisted man, who shot better than me faster and more accurately in anything.  However, not regarding skill, there were standards that we all abided by.


----------



## KennethKu

> _originally by DAC_
> 
> kenethku.
> 
> I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me and would also like that proof, due to the respect that they show even in their doubting me they have received thier proof, you however I will prove nothing to you!


It wouldn't make me lose any sleep.
It isn't me you need to prove your claims to. 

When you have 2 players from the same place who claimed ranks that cannot be authenicated by the recognized authority of the specific arts, there is more than enough proof to choke a horse already.

Regarding respect, I show respect to those who deserve respect. I also do not care to earn respect from people I don't respect.  I am sure most people feel the same on this.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I don't think the issue was charging for testing, charging for belts, etc., but rather the exorbitant fees some organizations and schools charge...
> 
> There is a thread in the TKD forum where they were discussing how much they have all paid for their testing to black belt...  One guy paid over $450 for his test, and all he got was an embroidered belt, a certificate and a card.  Sure, the belt can be pricy, and a certificate can also be valuable, but $450.00???
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *


Yeah, but think of it this way...  You have to think like a McDojanist

Think of it this way, you get fries with that belt and your "martial" skills :rofl:


----------



## KennethKu

Note: I do not mean to imply that Kukkiwon is the ONLY recognized authority of TKD.  You can be part of other legitimate federations. However, Smith's "Garage Federation" is pure crap.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Martial Artist,
> 
> In regards to the Kukkiwon allowing Dan jumping, skipping or whatever....:shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> The part of the Kukkiwon website that you posted indicates that the individual needs to pay for the rank skipped in addition to the one sought.  It would seem the exceptional cases are those in which the individual has money to line the coffers of the Kukkiwon with.  And rarely  is a relative term indeed.  Is it rare  because many legitimate TKD practitioners simply have to much integrity to do so or that they simply lack the funds making it....rare?
> 
> And this is the organization that a TKD practitioner needs to belong to so that their Dan is legitimate?????  Sounds like 'pay us money and we'll recognize you' to me
> 
> How about an organization that recognizes you for free....Now tha would sound  more legitimate to me.  No politics, no $$$ incentive...just plain ole respect of ability and time commited!
> 
> Now theres a novel thought.  Seems to me that I've DONE that and have gotten grief over it.  Everyone has different sets of values I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey...sounds good...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't sound very high to me
> 
> And you say I need to belong to an organization such as this in my particular disciplines for legitimacy??? :shrug:
> 
> I'll stick with the ones that have checked me out thoroughly without $ interest and accepted me amoung their honored ranks.
> 
> Don Roley,
> 
> 
> 
> I have given contact information to quite a few here.  Just not some.  Mutual respect goes a long way towards free flow of information...and has.
> 
> 
> 
> Does that apply to anyone here???  Not that I know of.  I've never claimed to be a member of any Okinawan organization that claims  to govern a Chinese style    And if I knew of any Chinese organizations that were affiliated with that particular discipline I would have sought them out long ago.
> 
> As I've said repeatedly, my Pangainoon was an off-shoot of what was originally Uechi.  My Dan is just a lowly little school Dan  based on what I've been taught since the early 70's from various men WAY above me in ability from around the world.  I can't boast of a home organization...cause I don't have one....cause I focused on training rather than organizational membership.  My bad, and one thats caused some grief, but so be it.
> 
> What good would it do to post my last instructors name?  Nobody will have heard of him.  He's gone now anyway.  However, I have posted the names of all the organizations to which I have chosen to be affiliated with.  As I've lived in Europe and the Middle East, most of them are located in those countries.  Once again, feel free to contact them as you wish.  They've checked me out as completely as one can be checked out and 'recognized me'.  If your not satisfied with that....who cares?
> 
> [And alot of us have been laughing at you as well.  Your E-budo has caught up with you  ]  You wanna keep the Die hard batteries in the dead horse, feel free.  Don't wanna be my buddy  I can live with that as well.  However, if and when you can concentrate on stuff other than my wall candy...maybe we can contribute to each other.  Now wouldn't that be a nice change? :asian:
> 
> Seig,
> 
> I agree there is good with the bad.  And just to be completely open, although my little insignificant school rank  puts me amoung them on paper, I freely admit that as an artist  I am no where near their caliber.  As far as real world experience...that is quite another story.
> 
> I know I missed something or someone...my apologies.
> 
> :asian: *


 
What I'm saying is that getting a 1st dan from Kukkiwon is not that much more difficult than getting a 1st dan from another organization.

And if you look at it this way, people who get certificates from Kukkiwon get promoted fast until third dan, then they stop because they realize that they've gone too fast and/or lack the base and understanding that slower-paced and more studious students go at, or it's just too hard for them.

"Pay me and get a certificate in the organization" - It is true in almost every school.  If I was in your school, I would pay you to teach me and you would give me the certificate.  Same concept.  Only difference is Kukkiwon really the one to blame for outlandish prices?  I don't know about you, but it's usually the schools that charge $2000 annually or something like that who charge $500 for testing fees.  Coincidence?

An organization that recognizes you for free...  You know how many people are working right in the very building?  They aren't rich, just asking humbly for their services of managing all the international affairs including inputing your information for dan rank AND get to be part of something they love to do.  I see no wrong to pay for their services so they can put food on the table too.  The rich guys in MA usually gives out the least work and has the least understanding of MA (not including variables such as being an entertainer/actor and the like ie: Chuck Norris is fairly rich due to his celebrity status, not from teaching MA).


----------



## A.R.K.

> However, Smith's "Garage Federation" is pure crap.



What in the world are you talking about  

Who mentioned Mr. Smith having any type of federation???


----------



## Matt Stone

Not trying to be a self-appointed thread cop, but...  :shrug:

I think we have drifted rather far from the original, generic topic.

While I believe that there are certainly some intersecting issues regarding specific organizations, their policies and practices, and members making claims of grading, the original intent (I thought) was to simply deal with the ideals and concepts of what constitutes legitimate claims, how claims can be proven or disproven, what constitutes worthwhile proof...  I could be wrong, and I could check out the first posts easily enough, but I don't feel like it...  

Let's stop pimp-slapping the Kukkiwon and deal with the more general topic at hand...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I am familiar with cases of skipping a rank that I believe to be legitimate involving instructors who ceased being involved with an art publicly, due to politics, but continued to train and teach privately for many years. When they returned to the public scene they were grossly under-ranked for their abilities and time served. It's easy to say "you bowed out, your loss" but in the real world one wants to be welcoming to those who want to rejoin the fold!
> 
> However, jumping someone who is active but very skilled seems iffy to me. One could always grant a waiver on the minimum time to the next rank instead. *


I wasn't in an organization for a looooonnggg time.  However, when I rejoined, I wasn't demoted or anything, people actually welcomed me.  I didn't have a 5th degree or anything, but a dan certificate from Kukkiwon stays there in most cases.  A school cannot demote you technically, only Kukkiwon can if your belt is from them.  A school can demote you for having such little skill and knowledge for a 5th dan.  The beauty of it is that you've met the requirements that were needed to be promoted to the next rank, so you stay that way...  But with today's conditions, I've seen green belts who look better than 3rd dans.  But yeah, people usually know whether they earned their belt or not...  If they don't know, they will realize it later, especially when some gifted white belt comes along and humiliates all of them, including the instructor.

Another thing, you usually can't bow out, because Kukkiwon really doesn't know whether you quit the school or not.  Frankly, they don't care if you quit a school or not or join another one unless you're very high up there to be noticed.  They don't know your current status on whether you're a current practitioner or someone who has moved elsewhere or quit altogether, or what your current condition is.  It's like a college degree.  Once you get it, it doesn't matter where you work, or whether you work at the given time or not, it is there to stay.  And yes, everyone including me forgot a lot of the stuff they taught in college in order to obtain the degree.  Yet, no matter what you forgot, you still earned the degree.  If you apply for another job, the degree is indeed counted (if required for the particular job).  After that, it's your PERFORMANCE that comes into play...  Just like in the martial arts.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Not trying to be a self-appointed thread cop, but...  :shrug:
> 
> I think we have drifted rather far from the original, generic topic.
> 
> While I believe that there are certainly some intersecting issues regarding specific organizations, their policies and practices, and members making claims of grading, the original intent (I thought) was to simply deal with the ideals and concepts of what constitutes legitimate claims, how claims can be proven or disproven, what constitutes worthwhile proof...  I could be wrong, and I could check out the first posts easily enough, but I don't feel like it...
> 
> Let's stop pimp-slapping the Kukkiwon and deal with the more general topic at hand...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *


My apologies.

I believe all that is said is now said, and I will at least try to get back on the related subject.

But like I've said before, going after single things is related to going things in general.  And a lot of claims made on the internet are based on bullshido organizations because they give out a 9th dan, and someone claims that have a 9th dan that doesn't check out, and they just own the character.  Either that or they're totally lying, or maybe a combination of both.


----------



## MartialArtist

Another thing to add is that like a college degree, it matters where you get the degree.  Some employers do discriminate depending on which college you went to.  Almost all employers will accept degrees from many colleges, but if it was from a mail-order place...  And I would view a more influential and recognized degree from say, a computer science degree from MIT, or a medical degree from Harvard or John Hopkins, to a law degree from Yale more highly than having counterpart degrees from a state college.  Many times, a degree from a state college is good enough, but what is more noticeable?


----------



## A.R.K.

Y1,

I don't think its a matter of beating up on the Kukkiwon per se.  They just happen to be a well known example of where this thread has wandered.  

I fully recognize the Kukkiwon = TKD [a generality].  It is a/the recognized _authorized governing world organization._   But they have had their problems and have their problems.  Have they 'sold' rank...yes they have.  Is anyone going to deny direct or indirect knowledge of this?  Have we not ALL [most] heard of 'get on the plane x rank in Korea and get off the plane X rank in America'?  Are their standards perhaps not a bit lax overall?  When we think of McDojo's don't we normally think sport TKD?  

Thats not bashing them, thats being honest of what has/is happening.  And my point is that many feel for Mr. Smith to be taken seriously as a Dan holder/earner...he needs to join into this 

And some here downplay ability as though it is a secondary consideration.  I feel it should be first and foremost.  You are at X rank in Yiliquan [sorry I don't remember what that is].  You are at X rank because your instructor [Chufeng, Yilisifu?] feels you have earned that.  Who is anyone to come along and give you grief over it?  I don't know if you belong to an organization that 'recognizes' you at X rank...and to me it doesn't matter if you do or don't.  Your instructor is good enough for me. 

I don't have that luxury anymore.  And since I don't have a 'home' organization for that discipline.  I can only offer at this time verification of credentials in that discipline through the organizations I have listed.  They have checked me out thoroughly and aren't my 'drinking buddies' [I don't drink anyway].  They did not charge me a penny so I didn't 'buy' rank from them.  Thats all I've got bro, a school Dan in an off-shoot that has died out for all intents and purposes.  Not Pang as a whole...just our little slice of it.  That and some good organizations willing to honor me with what I've presented them.  

Grandmaster Yuri Kostrov was impressed enough to give me an honorary Dan in his style.  Didn't buy it...he honored me with it.  Hopefully that would say something???

Anyway, I now return you to your reguarly scheduled programming  

:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Technical forum?
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



My mistake, we discussed starting a tactics /strategy forum but I haven't heard anymore about it.:asian: 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6026


----------



## Matt Stone

*ARK* - 

Personally, I could hack on TKD all day...    My experiences with TKD in general, the ATA TKD folks specifically, and with some particular instructors and students, have been less than stellar.

But that's not what I was trying to get across.

We had a decent discussion going about what constitutes recognition, legitimacy, etc.  I felt that headway was being made in outlining what folks thought was good and acceptable, and what wasn't.

Then we started attacking the Kukkiwon.  

I could care less.  They look, on the surface, to be just as corrupt as the USMA and other similar organizations.  All about the $$$ and not about legitimate MA at all...

But I'd rather stick to the generic in this thread.  We can always start another thread and hack the TKD folks to death there...  :lol:

*** CAVEAT - I DO NOT INTEND NOR IMPLY THAT ALL TAE KWON DO SCHOOLS, TEACHERS, STUDENTS OR PRACTITIONERS ARE OF SUB-STANDARD QUALITY OR KNOWLEDGE.  IT HAS BEEN MY LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH TKD IN GENERAL, AND ATA TKD IN PARTICULAR, THAT THEIR SCHOOLS ARE MORE ORIENTED TOWARD MASS PRODUCTION OF BLACK BELTS WITH LITTLE ATTENTION TO DETAIL AND QUALITY.  DO NOT FLAME ME FOR COMMENTS INTENDED IN JEST TOWARD ARK.*** 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Y1,
> 
> I don't think its a matter of beating up on the Kukkiwon per se.  They just happen to be a well known example of where this thread has wandered.
> 
> I fully recognize the Kukkiwon = TKD [a generality].  It is a/the recognized authorized governing world organization.   But they have had their problems and have their problems.  Have they 'sold' rank...yes they have.  Is anyone going to deny direct or indirect knowledge of this?  Have we not ALL [most] heard of 'get on the plane x rank in Korea and get off the plane X rank in America'?  Are their standards perhaps not a bit lax overall?  When we think of McDojo's don't we normally think sport TKD?
> 
> Thats not bashing them, thats being honest of what has/is happening.  And my point is that many feel for Mr. Smith to be taken seriously as a Dan holder/earner...he needs to join into this
> 
> And some here downplay ability as though it is a secondary consideration.  I feel it should be first and foremost.  You are at X rank in Yiliquan [sorry I don't remember what that is].  You are at X rank because your instructor [Chufeng, Yilisifu?] feels you have earned that.  Who is anyone to come along and give you grief over it?  I don't know if you belong to an organization that 'recognizes' you at X rank...and to me it doesn't matter if you do or don't.  Your instructor is good enough for me.
> 
> I don't have that luxury anymore.  And since I don't have a 'home' organization for that discipline.  I can only offer at this time verification of credentials in that discipline through the organizations I have listed.  They have checked me out thoroughly and aren't my 'drinking buddies' [I don't drink anyway].  They did not charge me a penny so I didn't 'buy' rank from them.  Thats all I've got bro, a school Dan in an off-shoot that has died out for all intents and purposes.  Not Pang as a whole...just our little slice of it.  That and some good organizations willing to honor me with what I've presented them.
> 
> Grandmaster Yuri Kostrov was impressed enough to give me an honorary Dan in his style.  Didn't buy it...he honored me with it.  Hopefully that would say something???
> 
> Anyway, I now return you to your reguarly scheduled programming
> 
> :asian: *


I think the real problem would not be Mr. Smith deciding to leave Kukkiwon, but him giving out dan certificates to his students which no matter how good the student is, won't get him anywhere once he goes elsewhere.  His skills could speak for themselves, but the rank wouldn't be legit in other areas, that's the problem.  And a bigger problem is when Mr. Smith decides to give one of his students a 9th dan, and his students start claiming on how good they are because they have grandmaster status.


----------



## A.R.K.

Y1,

I believe that the individual TKD practitioner/instructor is hurt by Kukkiwon rather than helped, my opinion.  

I feel that real TKD i.e. combat is a fine discipline.

MA,



> I think the real problem would not be Mr. Smith deciding to leave Kukkiwon, but him giving out dan certificates to his students which no matter how good the student is, won't get him anywhere once he goes elsewhere.



I never mentioned Mr. Smith leaving the Kukkiwon, only whether he needed to join it or not.  



> And a bigger problem is when Mr. Smith decides to give one of his students a 9th dan, and his students start claiming on how good they are because they have grandmaster status.



Mr. Smith is at 1st Dan for illustration purposes.  A long time before he would award a 9th Dan in anything don't you think?

My whole point is the Kukkiwon is the _standard_  but it doesn't seem to be anything one who is serious would want to be a part of.  My opinion.

:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

I must, grudgingly, admit that most organizations ultimately wind up being more about their own existence and perpetuation of the power of the few in charge than they are about the well-being and betterment of their members.

This is true through history, in one form or another, be it about martial arts, government or religion.

However, there are some organizations whose members fight to remain true to their original ideals.

*ARK* - 

Your statement that the individual is harmed more than helped by membership in the Kukkiwon ("Kooky" Won?  ) seems spot on.  While I hold little real regard for TKD on the whole (based on my experience with KATUSA soldiers on the DMZ with me in Korea back in '89 - '90; my experience in tournaments with ATA TKD people back in Nebraska; and my interaction with TKD folks in the Army), and feel that TKD has degenerated to a "soup stock" art (one who is never used by itself, but must have many components added before it becomes "palatable"), I'll leave that discussion for another time.

Their organizations appear to me, along with the organizations of several other arts, to exist simply to glorify and further inflate the egos of those who head them.  Organizations like them should be both avoided and shut down.  Hard stance, I know, but that's how I feel...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Y1, ...
> 
> And some here downplay ability as though it is a secondary consideration.  I feel it should be first and foremost.  You are at X rank in Yiliquan [sorry I don't remember what that is].  You are at X rank because your instructor [Chufeng, Yilisifu?] feels you have earned that.  Who is anyone to come along and give you grief over it?  I don't know if you belong to an organization that 'recognizes' you at X rank...and to me it doesn't matter if you do or don't.  Your instructor is good enough for me.*



I am a Level 2 Senior in Yiliquan.  I hold no other ranks or grades in any other arts.  What does Level 2 Senior mean?  Well, I get a spiffy looking sash for one...  

There are 13 Junior grades, 5 Senior grades and 3 Master grades in Yiliquan.  So, technically, I am better than half way to the top, but that also means I am less than 1/4 of the way to knowing what the heck I'm doing...  

My alleged rank means precisely "Richard" to anyone outside Yiliquan, since our structure doesn't directly relate to the standard kyu/dan system.  Heck, as far as I know, my alleged rank doesn't mean diddly to the folks _in_ Yiliquan!  :lol:  And ultimately, the only reason I ever tested for Level 1 Senior was so I wouldn't have to worry about testing ever again...  (I was done with it - except Sifu doesn't care if _you_ think you are done or not!)



> *Grandmaster Yuri Kostrov was impressed enough to give me an honorary Dan in his style.  Didn't buy it...he honored me with it.  Hopefully that would say something???*



I have had rank offered to me twice.  Once because the person thought I deserved it, once because the other person wanted rank in Yili in exchange.  I avoided dealing with the first situation because I had/have great respect for the person, but really didn't feel I deserved the rank (even though I was informally tested to that grade).  The second situation I avoided because all the other person really wanted to do was to have me hand him rank in Yiliquan (which would only happen over my dead body).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Disco

Your assessment of TKD I'm ashamed to say is correct. The truely painful part is when I started 20yrs ago it wasen't like that. During that time, I have witnessed the total (in my opinion) degradation of a style of Martial Arts that used to be looked on with respect. When the older Masters that originally came to this country back in 70's retired or passed on, the younger Masters that took over just went after the money. Lots of kids, lots of tournaments, lots of selling things at tournaments and lots of charging big money for a piece of paper. 

The really bigger shame is that a lot of that greed and mindset has spread through out the Martial Arts world.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!! *



Heres the rest of my "old certs." from The International Zen Martial Arts Federation of North America.

Sorry about the picture quality and the ugly guy in front of them


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Your assessment of TKD I'm ashamed to say is correct. The truely painful part is when I started 20yrs ago it wasen't like that. During that time, I have witnessed the total (in my opinion) degradation of a style of Martial Arts that used to be looked on with respect. When the older Masters that originally came to this country back in 70's retired or passed on, the younger Masters that took over just went after the money. Lots of kids, lots of tournaments, lots of selling things at tournaments and lots of charging big money for a piece of paper.
> 
> The really bigger shame is that a lot of that greed and mindset has spread through out the Martial Arts world.
> :asian: *


lots of forms
lots of liberals
lots of systematic patterns
lots of flashiness

Lots of liberals is a big thing.  Unlike something like wrestling, where full speed does not really "cause damage" as the liberals say (doesn't make sense to me) but in grappling as in a submission move, you can stop before they are hurt.  TKD is a hard art that has to be practiced full speed, and full speed hurts.  I don't make sense of the situation, because anything combative in full speed hurts but hey, it's liberals...  Most liberals supported the idea of licensing "deadly weapons" aka "black belts".

Other than that, poomsae competitions?  WTF?  What's next, who has the loudest "*Kiyaaaaaaaaaaaapppppp*" or "battle cry"


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Rich -
> 
> I think that, in regards to FMA in general, and the farce after the death of GM Presas in particular, yours is an example of what happens when legitimate grading is given without sufficient documentation to support it (it isn't a question of its authenticity, only a question of supporting after GM Presas' untimely passing).  I doubt that anyone directly connected to GM Presas that has no interest in the political squabbling would really question your rank or skills...  I know I wouldn't.  But yours isn't really the posterchild of MA rank claims that we have been speaking about...  You aren't running around claiming to be the Great Grandmaster of Modern Arnis (that is someone else from what I have heard...  ).
> 
> ...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *




Ah, but you see I do have teh certificates, and at least one if not all of my test(s) on one video tape  or another. All were before GM R Presas and other Masteres of the art. If I cared a lot I could go shove it down people's throats. Since I only care a little, I just comment about it.

Yet to be serious here, it is ok to be a fraud at 4th degree but not at 6th? or 8th? Where is the line drawn? Just curious

:asian:


----------



## Disco

lots of forms
lots of liberals
lots of systematic patterns
lots of flashiness

Lots of liberals is a big thing. Unlike something like wrestling, where full speed does not really "cause damage" as the liberals say (doesn't make sense to me) but in grappling as in a submission move, you can stop before they are hurt. TKD is a hard art that has to be practiced full speed, and full speed hurts. I don't make sense of the situation, because anything combative in full speed hurts but hey, it's liberals... Most liberals supported the idea of licensing "deadly weapons" aka "black belts".

Other than that, poomsae competitions? WTF? What's next, who has the loudest "Kiyaaaaaaaaaaaapppppp" or "battle cry"

 
Has the perscription run out?


----------



## Jeff Leader

The WMAA recognizes Mr. Parsons' rank (Lakan Tatlo), even though he isn't one of our members.

His having been promoted by Prof. Presas is good enough for us.

-Jeff Leader
 Chair, WMAA Advisory Board


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Jeff Leader _
> *The WMAA recognizes Mr. Parsons' rank (Lakan Tatlo), even though he isn't one of our members.
> 
> His having been promoted by Prof. Presas is good enough for us.
> 
> -Jeff Leader
> Chair, WMAA Advisory Board *


For those of us not familiar, would you please explain what that rank means.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *And some here downplay ability as though it is a secondary consideration.  I feel it should be first and foremost.*



I do not see anyone down playing ability. But there is a problem is just going with ability as a person claims it.

I think the problem is that claims of ability still kind of fall under the problems of "claims on the internet" which is the subject of this thread. (At least nominally.  ) Everyone can be a experienced street fighter, grizzled cop or ancient master from behind the screen of their computer. How do we know that the guys who proclaim "ability over paper" actually have any ability? People can posture all over the internet they want, but how are we to know they have the time in service they claim, or the experiences the mention?

Rank, affiliations and such really do not insure that a person has ability, but what better way is there to know the aproximate level of ability of a person? Some things are obvious from the way a person posts, but in some cases you ahve to take the word of the person on his experience. And how can you prove that someone really is a tough guy without looking at his time in training, the teachers he trained under, etc? I will admit there are idiots who have been training for longer than I have but are still clueless, but all things considered I will take the word of a long term practicioner over a short term one.

The problem of these types of people is so common now that Sharp Phil wrote an article about "Virtual Sensei" and another about "Virtual Tough Guys" I wish I could post a link to them, but can not seem to. But if you go to Philelmore.com and look in the martial arts section, you can find them.

Here is just a taste,



> Unfortunately, self-defense and the martial arts attract a particular breed of fraud in vast and limitless numbers: the Virtual Tough Guy (VTG). The VTG is often quite young, but not necessarily so. He may or may not have useful information to share. What is important to the VTG, however, is that you be impressed with how very cool he is. More tenacious than a mall ninja, more impervious to reality than a mail-order black belt, the VTG needs you to acknowledge what a badass he is. He uses a variety of intellectually dishonest tools to accomplish this, among them vague claims to unverifiable training, crude reverse psychology, and the judicious application of bootlicking. Fortunately, the average Web denizen can learn to spot the VTG's warning signs, and take with his or her posts the appropriate number of grains of salt.
> 
> The Major Warning Signs
> 
> While these warning signs are by no means inclusive, and should not be used as the basis for an immediate declaration of VTG status when exhibited by a specific Internet forum participant, an individual who exhibits more than one or two of these signs should be viewed with skepticism and even suspicion. Chances are, he's a VTG -- and even if the information he imparts is not tactically, physically, or logistically unsound, he's using you to gratify his ego. Who wants to be used? Who enjoys condescension and pretense?



And a little more,



> Look at Me, Look at Me
> 
> The VTG likes to start things off quickly. He'll introduce himself to a forum by telling everyone things he assumes they must know, since obviously everyone is interested in his personal style and statistics. No one has asked, but the VTG is more than happy to march in and announce his credentials to those assembled.
> 
> 
> Hi, I'm new here! Let me give you a little background. I'm 6', 215lbs, and built like a He-Man action figure. I'm old enough to have some experience, but too young to feel it yet.



You see the problem with just going with a person's _claimed_ ability?


----------



## RyuShiKan

Don, 

People keep pitchin em and you keep knockn em out of the park.
(i.e. your right on the money)

This thread has never been about ability and I cant recall ever questioning anyones.this ability over rank has been their defensive posture since this thread came out. 
This thread could be about ability if someone were to make some extravagant claim on the Internetlike I killed a charging bear by using only my tooth brush and my internal powers of ki..but so far that has not really been the topic and wont be until I see such claims.

Quite frankly guys that post how they were in xxx number of real life confrontations dont hold much weight with me. They remind me of virgin school boys talking about how many girls they have slept with.
Both are a joke.


As for Sharp Phils guide to spotting internet posersa must read!
You da man Phil! You da man!


----------



## SteelShadow

I asked this one time but you may have missed it.What style do you study and what orginizations do you belong to.You seem to have quiet abit of knowledge on a wide range of arts.I am genuinly curious?


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *
> As for Sharp Phils guide to spotting internet posersa must read!
> You da man Phil! You da man! *



RSK, 
I tought you were better than that! You need to go to: http://www.philelmore.com/ and read his bio, "ITS A MUST READ."


He's a green sash and has been training since 1990 and co-founding his own style and seems to represent everything you don't, I would think that you would ATTACK him at least half as much as YOU ATTACKED ME! 

My friend, are you sure you want to quote him 

Based on what you've told ARK nobody is are qualified by their "hard core training" alone.

OH YEA. I know he's "the E-Budo, BAD Budo Buster!"
Kinda Ironic, don't ya think?


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *I asked this one time but you may have missed it.What style do you study and what orginizations do you belong to.You seem to have quiet abit of knowledge on a wide range of arts.I am genuinly curious? *



 Sorry, I thought you were talking to me.:asian:


----------



## Phil Elmore

If you're going to attempt to divert attention away from your own problems by pointing at me, that's fine -- but stop to consider just how stupid a choice that might be.  I don't recall arguing with you before, but if you want to make an *** of yourself, you're well on your way.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *If you're going to attempt to divert attention away from your own problems by pointing at me, that's fine -- but stop to consider just how stupid a choice that might be.  I don't recall arguing with you before, but if you want to make an *** of yourself, you're well on your way. *



No we haven't argued and I don't dispute you're abilities, just those here that "quote you" should be a representative of what "you" represent.

And they don't!

You're in the crossfire, "they" brought you in by quoting you.

That last article you posted, does represent the type of things that I posted  in the past as far as you're outlook on the arts, and I was slammed, then they became turncoats by quoting you when in reality thats not how they feel.

For the record I don't have any "problems" and diverting attention has nothing to do with it.

When they respond you can "see" for yourself and "Read" their respones. Its double standard double talk.


----------



## KennethKu

Please kindly take personal argument off the forum.  We don't care to read about who has attacked whom.


----------



## Phil Elmore

I interviewed Matt for my website and I consider Don Roley a personal friend.  Neither are persons of low character.  I've come to trust Don's judgment in particular, in the past.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I interviewed Matt for my website and I consider Don Roley a personal friend.  Neither are persons of low character.  I've come to trust Don's judgment in particular, in the past. *



Don, I do not know and Matt I would consider and internet friend. 

RSK quoted you and like I said (judging on what you've written) you represent everything he does not, in fact what you have written partially backs up the ones the he was attacking.

He is not a bad guy, nor is anyone else in here. But if your beliefs are not inline with those you quote, then you shouldn't be quoting them.

When I mentioned wait for their response, I already knew, its the same ol song and dance. We know why they "quote" certain articles like the dojo fraud type of thing, because it leads them right back to the same individual(s) that are on the hit list.

They will play innocent and say why won't he answer the questions. They turn it around everytime.

Playing internet martial cop is the game. Matt and the others are not the sheriff, they are more like the deputies , Don just recently picked up where Mike Clarke left off, don't know why, don't know him, don't care if he has good or bad charactor. Charactor is not the issue.

And this is the last thing, if you read the thread. Everyone wants proof of so and so's rank. I put out the post for everyone to prove themselves as well (to judge is to be judged) and Arnisador is THE ONLY ONE that stepped up to the plate! The others just want to be the judge.:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Please kindly take personal argument off the forum.  We don't care to read about who has attacked whom. *



There is no "argument" here. We are dicussing "Claims on the Internet"

But I do think that your ITF/WTF dicussion MIGHT of been off topic.


----------



## Phil Elmore

The profiling guides quoted were written quite some time ago.  If you yourself in them, in whole or in part, it should give you pause.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *The profiling guides quoted were written quite some time ago.  If you yourself in them, in whole or in part, it should give you pause. *


What?


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *The profiling guides quoted were written quite some time ago.  If you yourself in them, in whole or in part, it should give you pause. *



OK, I read the post through:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8001, Good post!


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *RSK,
> I tought you were better than that! You need to go to: http://www.philelmore.com/ and read his bio, "ITS A MUST READ."
> 
> 
> He's a green sash and has been training since 1990 and co-founding his own style and seems to represent everything you don't, I would think that you would ATTACK him at least half as much as YOU ATTACKED ME!
> 
> My friend, are you sure you want to quote him
> 
> Based on what you've told ARK nobody is are qualified by their "hard core training" alone.
> 
> OH YEA. I know he's "the E-Budo, BAD Budo Buster!"
> Kinda Ironic, don't ya think? *




I was referring to the section on his website about Trolls, Combat Posers & Cyber Sensei. 
All of those articles make a great deal of sense and point out with great accuracy some of the dorks on the Internet.
As for his martial arts training I never asked about itnor do I care.


----------



## Phil Elmore

Sorry.  It should read, "If you _see_ yourself in them..."

All the profiling guides, including that latest article, cut both ways.

Don Roley, for example, has a reputation for outing frauds and other poseurs, but I've never known him to become obsessive about it or to cross the line.  By contrast, I know of one or two other Web denizens who _are_ characterized by a rabid need to find fraudulent behavior where there really is none.

What you should ask yourself is, why did the people with whom you were arguing quote pieces of my profiling guides to you?  Resist the urge to dismiss this simply as some failing on their parts.  Instead, ask yourself, "Do I see myself represented in these profiles?"

Then ponder why, and what you should do about it.

No profile is definitive.  Warnings are just that -- warning signs.  Sometimes a windmill _is_ just a windmill.  Other times, though, it's a monster.


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Sorry.  It should read, "If you see yourself in them..."
> 
> All the profiling guides, including that latest article, cut both ways.
> 
> Don Roley, for example, has a reputation for outing frauds and other poseurs, but I've never known him to become obsessive about it or to cross the line.  By contrast, I know of one or two other Web denizens who are characterized by a rabid need to find fraudulent behavior where there really is none.
> 
> What you should ask yourself is, why did the people with whom you were arguing quote pieces of my profiling guides to you?  Resist the urge to dismiss this simply as some failing on their parts.  Instead, ask yourself, "Do I see myself represented in these profiles?"
> 
> Then ponder why, and what you should do about it.
> 
> No profile is definitive.  Warnings are just that -- warning signs.  Sometimes a windmill is just a windmill.  Other times, though, it's a monster. *



Sorry, I shouldn't of "spoke" of you when I did not know you. I can be gutsy at times but they were not quoting at me, they were egging 2 other individuals.. They've been after 2 individuals for the longest time. Most of them except me and I except them. The stubburn ones jusr ignore me which is OK with me, but they keep ragging on these 2.

I have have "checked" myself quite a bit since I've been in here as well as the other forums and believe it or not, in all the forums, this one individual is the only one that ignores me. 

Good luck with your school, training and you are a good/great writer and I hope to hear more from you!:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *For those of us not familiar, would you please explain what that rank means. *



Seig et al,

Lakan in Modern Arnis means just Black Belt

Lakan Isa is First Degree Black Belt

Lakan Delawa is Second Degree Black Belt

Lakan Tatlo is Third Degree Black Belt

So, I have four ranks of Black in Modern Arnis, since there is a Black Belt Rank. Now, Many of those testing(ed) never did use the Lakan Rank by itself. I tell every one I am a third degree since Tatlo is three. 

Lakan is the Male Title and Dayang is the equilent Female Title.


Thank You ! Jeff and the W.M.A.A., I know your guy's Stance and I Thank You. Yes there are many who recognize my rank and knowledge, yet it is not the official organization of Modern Arnis. In my opinion with the death of GM Remy Presas the organization was also over. There was no real structure(s) in place to support this tragic event. In *My* opinion that is.

Humble a student of Filipino Martial Arts
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I was referring to the section on his website about Trolls, Combat Posers & Cyber Sensei.
> All of those articles make a great deal of sense and point out with great accuracy some of the dorks on the Internet.
> As for his martial arts training I never asked about itnor do I care. *



Hey, I think I cross the line to much, sorry! I think I'm entitled to be a dick once in a while 

:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *I asked this one time but you may have missed it.What style do you study and what orginizations do you belong to.You seem to have quiet abit of knowledge on a wide range of arts.I am genuinly curious? *



Sorry. I saw AKJA respond and thought you were talking to him...

I really do not know all that much- IMO. I have been in Japan for a good long time now and tend to learn everything I can. For example, there was a Chuan 'fa teacher straight from China that came to my little town and I took classes with him until his visa ran out and he returned home. That is kind of my philosophy- find any teacher that it good and learn what you can from them. There are seminars and such I have attended in both Japan and America- but I woud not really call that that being a student or training in a system.

(Incidently- the above Chuan 'fa teacher was an example of someone whose credentials I did not know about and did not care because would take on and beat anyone who wanted to go at it with him. I know zilch about Chinese arts, still can not tell you the name of his teacher even though I have a Japanese article on him, I just wanted the experience of working under such a qualified martial artist. And he did not spend time talking about his ability or any other claim. He just ran us through the meat grinder.)

But as I have mentioned in another section of Martialtalk, my core arts are Bujinkan, Taiji and I work out with another gaijin on Silat. In the last case we really are just proacticing stuff we have picked up and trying to keep it fresh.

In short, I have trained for longer and harsher than many self proclaimed sokes I see, and yet I feel I have a long way to go before I give up my "begginer" status. Miyamoto Musashi wrote that he did not _really_ understand martial arts until he hit 50. Considering just how much of a terror he was by age 30, what kind of egomaniac would I have to be to call myself a master?


----------



## Phil Elmore

Don is, of course, too modest for his own good.  While I've never had the pleasure of training with him or seeing him train, his advice and his various e-mails have been of great value to me over time.  He knows of what he speaks and is -- if I am any judge -- a skilled and educated man.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Sorry.  It should read, "If you see yourself in them..."
> 
> All the profiling guides, including that latest article, cut both ways.
> 
> Don Roley, for example, has a reputation for outing frauds and other poseurs, but I've never known him to become obsessive about it or to cross the line.  By contrast, I know of one or two other Web denizens who are characterized by a rabid need to find fraudulent behavior where there really is none.
> 
> What you should ask yourself is, why did the people with whom you were arguing quote pieces of my profiling guides to you?  Resist the urge to dismiss this simply as some failing on their parts.  Instead, ask yourself, "Do I see myself represented in these profiles?"
> 
> Then ponder why, and what you should do about it.
> 
> No profile is definitive.  Warnings are just that -- warning signs.  Sometimes a windmill is just a windmill.  Other times, though, it's a monster. *


Good way to put it, especially when I just reread Don Quixote


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Maybe we need to issue a set of playing cards like they have for the ex-Iraqi leaders. *



I vote SENSEII MIKE for ACE of SPADES.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 
--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Next, dan certificates from shodan up are never done on a word processor...as this one is...kyu ranks are sometimes mass produced but not dan ranks. They are hand written by the instructor.
> (Note the poor hand writing for the dan grade and rank. ) *



I think this would be true for Japanese or Okinawan systems, but what about those systems from other places around the world, where ancient traditions aren't held in such high esteem? Obviously I am talking of those systems that have stood the test of time, and have proven themselves to be valid. You know systems like American Kenpo and such like.

--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
> But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test? *



It would depend what you get for your money. At our school it costs about AU$800.00. For your 1st dan test. That covers your testing fee. It also pays for a rank specific gi. It pays for a REALLY nice certificate, framed and block mounted with some really cool fixtures. (Just makes it that much more special I guess), and some other stuff that I can't remember right now.
Also if you fail and only qualify for Sho Dan Ho, you don't have to pay for the next test. Mind you if you fail big time and don't qualify at all, then you are up for the testing fee again, but the rest is already paid.
--Dave

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

Lakan Tatlo is third degree black belt. Note, many Modern Arnis organizations use Lakan as a rank (zeroth degree black belt), followed by Lakan Isa (first degree), then Lakan, Dalawa, so Lakan Tatlo would be third degree but fourth _level_ black belt. This is so in Mr. Parson's case (unless I'm much mistaken).

See here for more ranks.


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *If they don't care about rank, then they will never go tot he trouble of getting it in the first place. So I have troule understanding the idea that someone can claim rank and then say they do not think it is important when asked to prove it. *



I can't agree with this one. Rank as such does not mean much to me, but the knowledge and level of training that goes with it does. So I have qualified to a certain level, do I say that because I don't really care if I can be called by a Dan ranking, then I shouldn't go any further?
Or do I go further because there are things I need to learn that will make my technique knowledge so much better?
If this is the case, then I need to advance my dan rankings accordingly.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Note: I do not mean to imply that Kukkiwon is the ONLY recognized authority of TKD.  You can be part of other legitimate federations. However, Smith's "Garage Federation" is pure crap. *



I don't know about Smith's "Garage Federation", but just don't go dissin' Smythe's "Garage Federation Inc.", they're the real deal!

--Dave
:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *This thread could be about ability if someone were to make some extravagant claim on the Internetlike I killed a charging bear by using only my tooth brush and my internal powers of ki..but so far that has not really been the topic and wont be until I see such claims.*



HUH!! What a wussy. I have never needed to use my toothbrush in any of the hundreds of situations like the one above, that I have been in.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

--Dave

This post will be even funnier if you happen to know just how dentally challenged I am.


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I can't agree with this one. Rank as such does not mean much to me, but the knowledge and level of training that goes with it does. So I have qualified to a certain level, do I say that because I don't really care if I can be called by a Dan ranking, then I shouldn't go any further?
> Or do I go further because there are things I need to learn that will make my technique knowledge so much better?*



The point I was trying to make is that some of us do not believe that rank really is an important thing. So we _never_ talk about what rank we are. 

In fact, in my dojo, there is no difference in the classes between the most rank begginer and the most experienced practicioner. The instructor has several lessons going on at the same time, based on the ability of the students to understand, not on what rank they have around their waist. Since most people know each other and the teacher knows what they are weak at, there is no problem with the transferring of information. Knowledge of the student is more important than what rank he has and that comes form being around the teacher ona  regular basis. As such, many people do not bother to get rank. It does not affect their training one way or another. There are no classes barred to people because they are too low in rank.

You can go through training and not get rank. And if you go to the trouble of getting rank, you are free never to mention it. But it is weird for some people to post what rank they are on the internet and when asked to prove that it is real, start to say that rank does not mean anything so the will not provide any proof of their claims.

Me, if you want to treat me like a begginer, that is fine with me. I think that even the most experienced people can usually point to something other than their own experiences to back up what they say. Not always, but a good portion of the the time.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I think this would be true for Japanese or Okinawan systems, but what about those systems from other places around the world, where ancient traditions aren't held in such high esteem? Obviously I am talking of those systems that have stood the test of time, and have proven themselves to be valid. You know systems like American Kenpo and such like.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> *


I don't know exactly, but I'm pretty sure legit kenpo organizations have their own methods of preventing forgery, fraud, etc.  Word processed?  Maybe for something like a certain mark in the color belts, but for high dan ranks, I could see people taking measures on how to protect their name.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *This post will be even funnier if you happen to know just how dentally challenged I am. *




You're Austrailian ... we know


----------



## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I think this would be true for Japanese or Okinawan systems, but what about those systems from other places around the world, where ancient traditions aren't held in such high esteem? Obviously I am talking of those systems that have stood the test of time, and have proven themselves to be valid. You know systems like American Kenpo and such like.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> *



My brother-in-laws instructor, Mr. Tarow Hayashi was raised American and lived in the (world war era) internment camps (is that what they called them when the locked up the Japanese Americans). 

Although he was actually an American, his certificates (that he issued) were all issued with handwritten Kanji. My certificates up to brown are from the late Mr. Hayashi and his organization. He also used custom "odd sized" paper to help prevent forgery and each certificate was stamped with the state seal of Texas.

But in America that is not common, especially today. Goju for example. USA Goju broke off from Japan some 40 years ago. The reason for the split is of no consequence. But I think that it would be safe to say that during those 40 years, that handwritten Kanji disapeared and the certificates are 100% legitimate.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> Although he was actually an American, his certificates (that he issued) were all issued with handwritten Kanji. *



Actually from the certificates I saw in the photo they all seem to have the exact same kanji on them.Exact same meaning as in size and style.
Look at the far left side you can see the word Karate Do written on each and it looks just like all the others. It would be nice to see what is on them with a closer and clearer photo of them.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> * But in America that is not common, especially today. Goju for example. USA Goju broke off from Japan some 40 years ago. The reason for the split is of no consequence. *



Uuuh no. American Goju did not split away from Japan Goju..Peter Urban was let go by the Japanese Goju group because he was/is a nut case.


[/B][/QUOTE]But I think that it would be safe to say that during those 40 years, that handwritten Kanji disapeared and the certificates are 100% legitimate. [/B][/QUOTE]

Those from American Goju are legit for them, however they probably dont hold weight in other Goju groups, as Peter Urban is considered a bit of a whacko by many people.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I think this would be true for Japanese or Okinawan systems, but what about those systems from other places around the world, where ancient traditions aren't held in such high esteem? Obviously I am talking of those systems that have stood the test of time, and have proven themselves to be valid. You know systems like American Kenpo and such like.
> 
> --Dave
> 
> *



My comment wasn't really directed at ranks issued by western people, slpinter groups or other variations of an art. It was meant at those arts those that claim rank from Asia.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *HUH!! What a wussy. I have never needed to use my toothbrush in any of the hundreds of situations like the one above, that I have been in.
> *




What can I say.......your ki is more developed than the average person................wait a minute...........do they even have bears "Down Under"????


----------



## James Kovacich

The Kanji is the same





> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Actually from the certificates I saw in the photo they all seem to have the exact same kanji on them.Exact same meaning as in size and style.
> Look at the far left side you can see the word Karate Do written on each and it looks just like all the others. It would be nice to see what is on them with a closer and clearer photo of them *



The Kanji is the same on all. It probably translates something to do with the art or org.,  It won't fit in my scanner but I can scan the Kanji side and post it.
:asian:


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *What can I say.......your ki is more developed than the average person................wait a minute...........do they even have bears "Down Under"???? *


Nothing like the grizzlies in the USA and Canada...

However, you have to keep in mind that Australia is the home of the most dangerous animals in the world!  I mean, almost every animal there is equipped with sharp teeth, powerful legs, poison, etc.  Even the harmless looking ones like the platypus!

Plus, they got so many sharks and poisonous aqautic plants it's not even funny.

So yes, you need ki and lots of it to battle all those animals, especially with a tooth brush.


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## A.R.K.

Should see the bear in Alaska!

I'll give the nod to Austrailia on the shark thing though


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *The Kanji is the same
> 
> The Kanji is the same on all. It probably translates something to do with the art or org.,  It won't fit in my scanner but I can scan the Kanji side and post it.
> :asian: *


 Here it is.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *The Kanji is the same
> 
> The Kanji is the same on all. It probably translates something to do with the art or org.,
> :asian: *




I meant the same as in looking photocopied not as in their meaning.

That looks like it was hand written and then possibly photocopied for all the certificates.


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## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *What can I say.......your ki is more developed than the average person................wait a minute...........do they even have bears "Down Under"???? *



Actually, if you were to talk to some of your older servicemen, that have spent time down here, you might get them to tell you about the incredibly dangerous "*DROP BEAR* ".

It was a ruse, created as a practicle joke, sometime around WW2.  One of our blokes found a dead Koala, which is actually a marsupial, not a bear, and took it up a tree. Another fella was telling this group of green GI's about the aforementioned Drop Bear. As they walked under the tree they were attacked by one and a legend was born.

As if Australia didn't have enough weird looking animals, we have to and create new ones. 

You should hear about the infamous *Hoop Snake* .:rofl: 


--Dave
:rofl:


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## D.Cobb

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Nothing like the grizzlies in the USA and Canada...
> 
> However, you have to keep in mind that Australia is the home of the most dangerous animals in the world!  I mean, almost every animal there is equipped with sharp teeth, powerful legs, poison, etc.  Even the harmless looking ones like the platypus!
> 
> Plus, they got so many sharks and poisonous aqautic plants it's not even funny.
> 
> So yes, you need ki and lots of it to battle all those animals, especially with a tooth brush. *



Hey, you forgot about our spiders. We even have hybrid breeds that are less than 30 years old, but really nasty.

I don't use ki on them though, usually just a shoe. 

It's interesting that you know about the platypus being poisonous, most Australians don't.

I always think of "Platypus" as one of those words made up by Yosemite Sam. Goldurn Platypus Varmint!:rofl: 

--Dave


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## RyuShiKan

Speaking of cheese..lets get the thread back on track.

This thread is about people that make bogus claims on the Internet.

The bogus claims can be about rank, titles etc

This thread is not about judging skill level over the Internet but only bogus claims.


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I meant the same as in looking photocopied not as in their meaning.
> 
> That looks like it was hand written and then possibly photocopied for all the certificates. *



I think your right. Can you read it? What does it say?


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I think your right. Can you read it? What does it say? *



The kanji that you posted that were large enough to read were "kara te do."  The other pics were too small for me to read...  RyuShiKan, being better at Japanese and Chinese than I am, may have been able to make out the smaller pics...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by akja _
> ..... But I think that it would be safe to say that during those 40 years, that handwritten Kanji disapeared and the certificates are 100% legitimate.....



Whether the cert is legit or not is only one of the issues.  You can have a Smith Backyard-Garage Federation issued 100% authentic Smithy Realistic TKD 6th Dan.  Of course  it is legit. Mr. Smithy printed the darn thing off his kid's printer himself.  But it is toilet paper, as far as TKD is concerned.  It has no recognition beyond Mr. Smithy's garage crews/fellowship.  Nobody knows what bogus standard Mr. Smithy has cooked up. No one cares neither. It is 6th Dan of garbage, 8th Dan of MoogooGaiPan.

That is the core problem with Joe, Dick and Harry starting up crack pot martial arts as well as issuing garbage certificates. There is the complete absence of *certification* in the certificate.  You only have Smithy's sweet words to go by. If that is good enough for you, that says a lot about you too. (I don't mean you, akja specifically)

As for proof, I have to laugh when people whine about how they should be judged by their ability etc. When people who claim 6tg dan, 8th dan or 9th dan in whatever arts, but clearly demonstrated the LACK of knowledge about the inner working of their arts, that is all the proof you need to know that they are bogus.  Their lack of knowledge is all the evidence you need. Someone with those advance ranks/degrees, possess a certain high level of knowledge that go with the positions. They can't fake this.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I think your right. Can you read it? What does it say? *




The close up just says Karatedo.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I think your right. Can you read it? What does it say? *




If you want me to translate the rest of it let me know.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *     WHHhhhoooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
> 
> Whats that noise?
> 
> It's the wind blowing through a dead horse's skull! :rofl: *




Sounds more like your imagination playing tricks on you.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *     Mr. Smith is in a non-Korean country and he is non-Korean.  He is taking TKD classes and has reached the point where Sensei Jones feels Mr. Smith is ready to test for his 1st degree black belt.  Sensei Jones [or whatever the Korean word for instructor is] is a registered member of the Kukkiwon, lets say he's at 4th Dan.  *



Odd you wouldnt know the Korean word for instructor since you claim to be the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Assn. Representative for the State of Florida.
Oh well, guess that that kind of knowledge isnt important when you are Representative for a Korean Organization.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *     *Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone? *



Sure why not..can the new black belt claim he represents a Korean Organization? I guess it depends on if he is registered with one.
Will a Korean Org. accept his rank.depends on the Org. I guess.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *     *Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey? *



I thought that was Soke Dokey :rofl:
Depends on what he wants to claim I guess



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *     *Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses? *



Sure, he can get together with some of his buds and make up some bogus organizations and they could have a mutual dan promotion party until they are all 25th dans.
Then claim that he is recognized by his peers. That has been done by more than a few people on the Internet.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *     *If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?
> *




It only affects it if he claims it was from a certain organization which it was not issued by.


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## A.R.K.

Ahhh, look who still has his feelings hurt  

Gosh Robert, that was posted quite a while ago, I guess you bringing up others posts and making snide remarks is all you have left to do? :shrug: 

Hey you could always fire of another profane email to me.  I've come to expect that from you anyway.

You sure do pout quite a bit.  



> Sure, he can get together with some of his buds and make up some bogus organizations and they could have a mutual dan promotion party until they are all 25th dans.



You keep whinning about this.  Anybody done this that you know of?  I mean actually know of?  Anybody here?  Present some proof for a change  

BTW - loved your latest email tirade.  At least you kept it *mostly*  clean


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *   Ahhh, look who still has his feelings hurt  *



You lost me. I have no idea what your are referring to by having my feelings hurt.





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> Hey you could always fire of another profane email to me.  I've come to expect that from you anyway. *



I have actually had to block your account due to your unsolicited harassing  emails.



> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *   You sure do pout quite a bit.  *



Again you have lost me.





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> * Anybody done this that you know of?  I mean actually know of?  Anybody here?  Present some proof for a change  *



Rod Sacharnoski, William Durbin..


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## A.R.K.

> have actually had to block your account due to your unsolicited harassing emails.



Unsolicited?  Harassing?  Blocked?  More _unitentional fabrications_  Robert?  You emailed me as of today twice.  I didn't ask you to, nor did I request the abusive profane wording.  Harrased???  Give me a break  



> Rod Sacharnoski, William Durbin..



Who are they?  Do they post here?  Whats your proof?  Anybody HERE that you have actual proof?

I would block your emails to me, but they serve two purposes;

1.  Entertainment value on how a _professional_  instructor in Japan conducts himself.

2.  For a rainy day.  I'll let you figure that one out


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Who are they?  Do they post here?  Whats your proof?  Anybody HERE that you have actual proof?*



Try going here and looking around a bit.  You will be able to obtain more than enough proof, links to URLs of fraudulent teachers and their bogus arts, etc.  Should be enough to satisfy your curiosity.

As for the rest of your post... 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## KennethKu

If you post a list of questions asking for comment, at least be professional when the answers are not what you are looking for.   Deal with it like an adult.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Odd you wouldnt know the Korean word for instructor since you claim to be the Korean Yudo & Hapkido Assn. Representative for the State of Florida.
> Oh well, guess that that kind of knowledge isnt important when you are Representative for a Korean Organization.
> *


The great thing about the organization is...  It's not based in Korea, yet it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Association.  More realistically, it hsould be called the Florida Yudo and Hapkido Organization, because it's based in Florida.  I have no doubt that ARK is a Florida representative, because the organization is mainly based around Florida.  I don't know why the person decided to call it the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Association, maybe to make it seem more "authentic" or "traditional".  Maybe just because there are a few Korean members, it gives them the right to call themselves the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization.  At least call it the American Yudo and Hapkido Organization, because most people in Korea wouldn't know what the organization is.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/KYHA.htm

Besides, I like the paragraph on the man's gi...  It's the only Korean characters found on the site.  Too small to read, but otherwise, I don't think there's anything Korean on there.  Even the background music isn't Korean.


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## arnisador

This thread is now locked. Too many personal issues continue to be raised. Feel free to start new thread(s) for any of the side issues that have been raised.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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