# Elite female judo vs untrained male



## Lalulalang (Aug 27, 2021)

Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


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## drop bear (Aug 27, 2021)

Never mind.


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## frank raud (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


Unquestionably, one of them would win. Unless it's the other one. In that case, it's them.


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## dvcochran (Aug 27, 2021)

FWIW a 150lb 'guy' is almost always still an adolescent. Beyond that there are just way too many variables to give an answer.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> FWIW a 150lb 'guy' is almost always still an adolescent. Beyond that there are just way too many variables to give an answer.


Or just short/skinny. That's around where I am. Don't think anyone would look at me and think "bigger guy" though.


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## seasoned (Aug 27, 2021)

Although I have the upmost respect for Judo, once you lose the element of surprise this could be a game changer...In
 a "real fight" things can get dirty very fast.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?



not enough info to answer the question...... what is the time of day? what the weather like? in a dojo or on a small sidewalk in Sheboygan? what did each had for lunch? do they like Cheerios? What is their shoe size? and of course it all truly depends on the cosmic alignment of the planets as it applies to their zodiac sign


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## donald1 (Aug 27, 2021)

If somebody told me they were an 'elite judo fighter', I'd assume they were exaggerating. 

Is that slang for black belt? I can't imagine a black belt calling themselves 'Elite'. That sounds like something an orange belt who joined martial arts four months ago, regularly watches UFC/kung fu movies/youtube videos, and been in two fights back in high school would say.


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## dvcochran (Aug 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Or just short/skinny. That's around where I am. Don't think anyone would look at me and think "bigger guy" though.


That is why I said "almost". I know there are people who are lightweight but I think they are in the lower side of the scale for average weight.


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## lklawson (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


The Promoter, that's who.  You are televising this hypothetical fight, right?


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## lklawson (Aug 27, 2021)

donald1 said:


> If somebody told me they were an 'elite judo fighter', I'd assume they were exaggerating.
> 
> Is that slang for black belt? I can't imagine a black belt calling themselves 'Elite'. That sounds like something an orange belt who joined martial arts four months ago, regularly watches UFC/kung fu movies/youtube videos, and been in two fights back in high school would say.


I've taken some seminars from elite female judoka.  By "elite" I mean "olympic medalists."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Sifu Mike (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


As a JKD fighter and sifu I can say that, in my opinion, it depends entirely upon the skills of the fighter, Judo or (street) fighter. Experience and heart make all the difference. Yes, other  factors are at work but the trained, "elite" judo fighter has a better  chance of winning.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Or just short/skinny. That's around where I am. Don't think anyone would look at me and think "bigger guy" though.


God i hate short people, you stand there like, where the love am i meant to punch, as they have free rein to IP man your groin.

I dont know if this is a serious post or not though.


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## Steve (Aug 27, 2021)

Is it an African or a European judoka?  I think the airspeed of an unladen judoka can really vary.


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## Buka (Aug 27, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Unquestionably, one of them would win. Unless it's the other one. In that case, it's them.


Legendary post, right there.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Is it an African or a European judoka?  I think the airspeed of an unladen judoka can really vary.


Why, I don't know that! Waaaaaagh


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## Lalulalang (Aug 27, 2021)

Hello, I'm an average guy (5'8/150) who have been training in boxing for 6 months and judo for a month. I just wondering, what if I against an elite female judoka in a real fight.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Hello, I'm an average guy (5'8/150) who have been training in boxing for 6 months and judo for a month. I just wondering, what if I against an elite female judoka in a real fight.


It's kind of a silly question. You're suggesting matching someone with no training against a world class athlete. Do you think you can out run Usain Bolt? Out drive Michael Schumacher? Out Quarterback Tom Brady?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Hello, I'm an average guy (5'8/150) who have been training in boxing for 6 months and judo for a month. I just wondering, what if I against an elite female judoka in a real fight.


Are you planning on fighting a 105lb female judoka soon? This seems oddly specific...


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## Steve (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Hello, I'm an average guy (5'8/150) who have been training in boxing for 6 months and judo for a month. I just wondering, what if I against an elite female judoka in a real fight.


Well, all other things being equal, I'll put my money on the judoka, and hope you have good heath insurance.


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## drop bear (Aug 27, 2021)

One of our girls beat a judo Olympian






Anyway. Ronda Rousey vs men on a game show.









						Flashback: Ronda Rousey Takes on 3 Male Judokas on Japanese TV Show
					

Japanese TV has hosted a  series of strange challenge matches between top female grapplers vs male Judokas. While male vs female rolling sessions are normal in the gym, they are much rarer in a competitive or even exhibition match setting. Over the years, Japanese TV has featured: -BJJ female...




					www.bjjee.com
				




Meisha Tate vs men.


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## Lalulalang (Aug 27, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's kind of a silly question. You're suggesting matching someone with no training against a world class athlete. Do you think you can out run Usain Bolt? Out drive Michael Schumacher? Out Quarterback Tom Brady?


What if we fight with mma rule not judo rule. Most of female can't punch properly, right?


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## Lalulalang (Aug 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Are you planning on fighting a 105lb female judoka soon? This seems oddly specific...


I'm just wondering, Sir. Most of female judoka don't train in boxing/striking. If the man can win, maybe he will fight against heavier judoka.


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## Lalulalang (Aug 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, all other things being equal, I'll put my money on the judoka, and hope you have good heath insurance.


Even 105lb female judoka?

So what if the man against fatter/heavier one (for example +70kg class)? How does the fight like?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 27, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> What if we fight with mma rule not judo rule. Most of female can't punch properly, right?


Have you ever been accused of being misogynistic? I bet you have.


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## Lalulalang (Aug 27, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Have you ever been accused of being misogynistic? I bet you have.


No, Sir. I'm just wondering effectiveness of judo dan gender matter in real fight.


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## Sifu Mike (Aug 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> God i hate short people, you stand there like, where the love am i meant to punch, as they have free rein to IP man your groin.
> 
> I dont know if this is a serious post or not though.


This  site is  but you, like others here, are not!
Sifu Mike


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## Cynik75 (Aug 28, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Most of female can't punch properly, right?


Most of the male too.


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## lklawson (Aug 28, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, all other things being equal, I'll put my money on the judoka, and hope you have good heath insurance.


Where's the "I doubt this is an honest question" button?


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 28, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


You'd get wrecked.


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## WaterGal (Aug 28, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Hello, I'm an average guy (5'8/150) who have been training in boxing for 6 months and judo for a month. I just wondering, what if I against an elite female judoka in a real fight.



Do you think a 105 lb female world-class judoka is going to jump you in the street? Or are you planning to jump some particular judoka in the street? Why would you be fighting this 105-lb woman in a real fight?

FWIW, my money would be on the judoka.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 28, 2021)

Steve said:


> Is it an African or a European judoka?  I think the airspeed of an unladen judoka can really vary.


But the African Judoka is non migratory, dont forget.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 28, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> I'm just wondering, Sir. Most of female judoka don't train in boxing/striking. If the man can win, maybe he will fight against heavier judoka.



I think you may win if she had no striking training and your 6 months of Boxing included you sparring hard for knockouts at least 20-30 rounds during those 6 months. 

I've sparred a 105ish female Judoka that was an Olympics alternate about 20+ years ago. I was trying to date her too.  I was only a BJJ White belt then and I'm bigger than you. It was even because I just used all power when I was in trouble. It was grappling only b/c with striking, she'd be flatlined.


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## WaterGal (Aug 28, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> What if we fight with mma rule not judo rule. Most of female can't punch properly, right?


I think if there's one thing the UFC has taught us, it's that grappling > striking. If she gets close enough to clinch you, you can't punch her. So you'd need to punch her and knock her out while she's shooting in.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Or just short/skinny. That's around where I am. Don't think anyone would look at me and think "bigger guy" though.


Same here. That's about where I should be. But I'd settle for 160. ...or 170 ....Heck I'd be happy to get back down to 180 right now!!!


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## CB Jones (Aug 29, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> I think if there's one thing the UFC has taught us, it's that grappling > striking.



Disagree.

I think UFC has taught us both striking and grappling are equally important and in the end its about individual ability.


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## Cynik75 (Aug 29, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Disagree.
> 
> I think UFC has taught us both striking and grappling are equally important and in the end its about individual ability.


I think the lesson was: striker without grappling defence has less chances than grappler without striking defence.


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## CB Jones (Aug 29, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> I think the lesson was: striker without grappling defence has less chances than grappler without striking defence.



Still disagree.

Between a strictly pure striker and a strictly pure grappler....the one who is better at their style will probably win due to that fighter imposing their style on the other.


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## Cynik75 (Aug 29, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> ...the one who is better at their style will probably win ....


But what if Johny's grappling is on the same level that Joe's striking?


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## CB Jones (Aug 29, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> But what if Johny's grappling is on the same level that Joe's striking?



Then it's whoever gets the better of the other at that time.

Sometimes Johnny wins and sometimes Joe wins.  And so goes the fight game.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2021)

Steve said:


> Is it an African or a European judoka?  I think the airspeed of an unladen judoka can really vary.


I'm still laughing at that one.


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## wab25 (Aug 30, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> I think if there's one thing the UFC has taught us, it's that grappling > striking.


I think Ronda Rousey proved this to be true... right up until she proved it not to be true... twice... and then quit...

What the UFC has taught me is that there is a lot of value in being the one who sets the rules of engagement. Whoever is better at setting the rules of engagement, usually has better odds of winning.

Corollary: Just because you don't want to fight a certain way, is no guarantee that you won't have to fight that way...


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2021)

wab25 said:


> I think Ronda Rousey proved this to be true... right up until she proved it not to be true... twice... and then quit...
> 
> What the UFC has taught me is that there is a lot of value in being the one who sets the rules of engagement. Whoever is better at setting the rules of engagement, usually has better odds of winning.
> 
> Corollary: Just because you don't want to fight a certain way, is no guarantee that you won't have to fight that way...


I would mostly agree with that, though it's always with the caveat that at the elite level in MMA, the worst strikers are still competent strikers and the worst grapplers are still competent grapplers.  

In a contest between a competent striker and a competent grappler (all other things being equal), the grappler wins that pretty much every time, in my opinion.  The striker would have a very limited opportunity to end it quickly, and outside of that is screwed.


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## wab25 (Aug 30, 2021)

Steve said:


> I would mostly agree with that, though it's always with the caveat that at the elite level in MMA, the worst strikers are still competent strikers and the worst grapplers are still competent grapplers.
> 
> In a contest between a competent striker and a competent grappler (all other things being equal), the grappler wins that pretty much every time, in my opinion. The striker would have a very limited opportunity to end it quickly, and outside of that is screwed.


Not according to the stats...









						How MMA fights end: Submission victories way down
					

How have UFC fights changed in recent years? Reed Kuhn breaks down each key trend to determine where the sport is headed.




					www.espn.com
				






> About half of all UFC fights will end inside the distance, but far more so by TKO than by submission. The finish rate for 2017 was right at 50 percent, thanks to 146 KO/TKOs and 80 submissions.


I still say it has more to do with who was better at dictating what type of fight it was.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 30, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Disagree.
> 
> I think UFC has taught us both striking and grappling are equally important and in the end its about individual ability.


It sort of favours striking.  5 min rounds and gloves sort of means it favours striking, at least modern UFC, early UFC was grappling. 

Anyone who isnt knew to martial arts or watches and reads things as a academic intrest should know by now that, unless you are doing a sport, you need to learn a Holostic martial art, that is one that covers everything or is a good enough base to dip into everything from.   Or at least most.    You are obvously going to favour striking or grappling, or be better than one or the other, or you could even favour and prefer weapons.   It doesnt mean you shouldnt be compotent in all aspects of martial arts.      And also allows you to dip into relivent supplimtory material, like running, strenghr training and things like that.  (you never know when you might slip or need to crawl under or behind something, its relivent if you think you may get shot at)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> I think the lesson was: striker without grappling defence has less chances than grappler without striking defence.


Not fully. The issue with the first UFC's (in terms of grappling beating striking) was that striking is more popular/known. So both grapplers and strikers have experience fighting strikers and testing their stuff against strikers/knowing what works. Meanwhile only grapplers had experience (for the most part) going against strikers. It was the people that had both that did well. 

If the original UFC was filled with grapplers that never did anything with a striker, the results might have been more balanced.


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Not according to the stats...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I may not have been clear, but what you're saying doesn't conflict with what I wrote.  My point was that in the UFC and other elite organizations, even the weakest grapplers are still competent grapplers, and even the weakest strikers are still competent strikers.  You don't get to the apex of the sport without being functional in all three phases of combat (striking, clinching, and grappling).  You may have weaknesses, but those weaknesses are relative to other elite level fighters.  

Just as a relevant aside, related to the article, a ground and pound victory is considered a TKO, but relies heavily on grappling skills.  Grappling isn't just submissions, though submissions are certainly a clear grappling victory.


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not fully. The issue with the first UFC's (in terms of grappling beating striking) was that striking is more popular/known. So both grapplers and strikers have experience fighting strikers and testing their stuff against strikers/knowing what works. Meanwhile only grapplers had experience (for the most part) going against strikers. It was the people that had both that did well.
> 
> If the original UFC was filled with grapplers that never did anything with a striker, the results might have been more balanced.


I don't think "familiarity" was really a factor.  This could be easily tested, but absent that, I will just reiterate that as a simple function of opportunity, the striker with no grappling skill has one chance to avoid disaster.  You can't fake grappling skill.  once the grappler has you in his or her mitts, all other things being equal, you are in deep trouble.  A grappler who gets you on the ground can punch you, even if he is doing it 'wrong.'


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## WaterGal (Aug 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> I think the lesson was: striker without grappling defence has less chances than grappler without striking defence.



That's what I meant, yeah. Someone who knows only grappling is, all else being equal, probably going to beat someone who only knows striking.

Now, in OP's hypothetical scenario, things aren't equal - he's bigger than her and male, but she's far more experienced/skilled. I think we can reasonably say that some amount of skill balances out some amount of size, though that's a bit hard to quantify.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


I spent 9 months learning judo when I was young. I don't think judo by itself is a good self defense training. It just lack a lot of things, it's not complete. Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other. Which is nothing like real fight. Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating. You just get up and attack again!!!

More importantly, don't believe a word that you don't need strength to throw people down. Strength is very important in judo. 

So back to the question. Depends on how strong is the girl, if she is a nail polisher, forget it. If she is strong, she would be able to pull the guy in and throw him on the ground. This also depends on how strong is the guy. If the guy is strong and can resist being throw around, the girl will have a hard time throwing him down.


BUT NOW: If you combine judo with some other striking MA, then it becomes more useful. Also, judo can be useful and can save your day. You learn how to fall on the ground. You likely will not be hurt if you trip and fall if you know judo. You might laugh at this, but if you are old and you have a fall, it can be a big deal. I remember one time it might saved me from seriously injury. Long story short, I fell down from a truck when I was unloading. It was high, I landed on my back. From judo training, I automatically tuck my head forward. The shock pulled my head back, I could feel my hair touching the concrete ground, but I did not hit my head. I was bruise up bad, but my head was ok!! I broke the fall, it was like 5 or 6ft down in the air!!!

Till today, once a week, I practice falling and break the fall on concrete floor to shake up my old bones and keep it in shape.

Conclusion, I would say it's worthy to practice like 6 months to learn the basics, then evaluate how much you can combine with your other MA.


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## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Steve said:


> I may not have been clear, but what you're saying doesn't conflict with what I wrote. My point was that in the UFC and other elite organizations, even the weakest grapplers are still competent grapplers, and even the weakest strikers are still competent strikers. You don't get to the apex of the sport without being functional in all three phases of combat (striking, clinching, and grappling). You may have weaknesses, but those weaknesses are relative to other elite level fighters.


I guess we differ on what is considered "competent." I do not consider Ronda Rousey as a "competent striker," at all.


Steve said:


> In a contest between a competent striker and a competent grappler (all other things being equal), the grappler wins that pretty much every time, in my opinion. The striker would have a very limited opportunity to end it quickly, and outside of that is screwed.






Unless you feel that Demian Maia is not a competent grappler... The boxer, TKD and Muay Thai fighter was able to defeat him quite easily, by determining the type of fighting that was taking place. Had Demian been able to make this a ground fight, I have no doubt that he would have worked over Silva quite easily. The problem was that Demian was unable to set the rules of the fight.

The other issue is the idea that the striker has a "limited opportunity to end it." Too many times the striker has fallen for this way of thinking. It causes the striker to swing for the fences, going all or nothing on one strike. It means that the strike is telegraphed, and that the striker is going to over extend his strike going off balance. This does favor the grappler. But proper striking says that you set up your knock out strikes. You use foot work to control range and get angles. See the fight above, where Silva uses foot work and angles to maintain the distance he wants. Even when Maia "gets his mits on him" Maia uses proper foot work and proper stance to disengage. The striker does not have a limited time to end it. The striker must use his foot work, his angles and movement to maintain the right distance for the type of fight that they want. This is the same thing they should do against another striker.

Its not down to what style it is... it is down to who can set the type of fight it is, and how much heart does each fighter have. If Maia could have made it a ground fight, he wins. But, Maia could not do that, Silva was able to make it a stand up striking fight. I am not sure I would call Maia a competent striker either... Both these guys are amazing at their own type of fighting... but Silva was able to determine what type of fight they had.


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## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other.


This is incorrect.


Alan0354 said:


> Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating.


For trained Judoka landing on a mat... it is not incapacitating... until it is. Kimura would throw Judo champions with o soto gari, on Judo mats and gave them concussions. Most people, when thrown full force by a Judo player, even on a mat, will not get right back up. (Most Judo players will not throw newbies and beginners that hard... they are nice folks and if they break people on the first day, they have no one to practice with...) There are videos on youtube of real Judo throws being used in real fights. (I would post some, I have in the past, but they now all require adult sign in to watch)  When done on sidewalks, asphalt or tile... it usually results in a KO if the guy lands on his head. If they miss the head, they have problems just breathing, and don't usually get back up. 

Judo also focuses on choking. They are quite good at choking people out, which tends to end fights fairly quickly too.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2021)

wab25 said:


> I guess we differ on what is considered "competent." I do not consider Ronda Rousey as a "competent striker," at all.



Relative to whom? I would not consider her competent relative to other elite mixed martial artists.  But compared to you or me or 99.9% of other people?  Her striking skill is more than sufficient.


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## r.d.mcdaniel (Aug 31, 2021)

I'm a 165 lb. male with a Shodan in Kyokushin and former high school wrestler. I pretty sure that Rhonda Rousey would kick my ***.


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## lklawson (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I spent 9 months learning judo when I was young. I don't think judo by itself is a good self defense training. It just lack a lot of things, it's not complete.


From 9 whole months worth of training.  Amazing!



Alan0354 said:


> Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other.


It does?  


Alan0354 said:


> Which is nothing like real fight.


It's not?


Alan0354 said:


> Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating. You just get up and attack again!!!


Tell me more.


Alan0354 said:


> More importantly, don't believe a word that you don't need strength to throw people down. Strength is very important in judo.
> 
> So back to the question. Depends on how strong is the girl, if she is a nail polisher, forget it. If she is strong, she would be able to pull the guy in and throw him on the ground. This also depends on how strong is the guy. If the guy is strong and can resist being throw around, the girl will have a hard time throwing him down.
> 
> ...


You're entertaining.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


All the facetious responses you've gotten aside, Yes Judo is effective in a real fight, more important anytime you have a someone with training vs someone with no training, the odds will he in favor of the person with training.


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## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Steve said:


> Relative to whom? I would not consider her competent relative to other elite mixed martial artists.  But compared to you or me or 99.9% of other people?  Her striking skill is more than sufficient.


Not exactly the example of great or even good striking skills:










Both of her opponents would get destroyed by Ronda, if she could make it into a grappling match. But she couldn't. And her striking skills, were sub par at best. No foot work, no guard, no jab, no straight punches of any sort, no head movement, telegraphing each punch, leading with her face... I could go on. Pick any boxer... they would win in a striking match... pro, amateur, college, the gal that works out and spars at the boxing club... All your Muay Thai fighters, kickboxing fighters, a good number of TKD and Karate fighters as well (as long as they have contact fighting experience). Now, if she could get it to a grappling match, then Ronda wins most of those fights... but it is not her striking skill... its her ability to force the fight that she wants. She ran into two gals that she could not force into a grappling match and got KOed. But in a pure striking match, she does not even come up to the amateur or club level strikers in most any town you find. It is her Judo skills, and athleticism that makes her special.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> All the facetious responses you've gotten aside, Yes Judo is effective in a real fight, more important anytime you have a someone with training vs someone with no training, the odds will he in favor of the person with training.


Mostly, I agree.  In general, a person with realistic training will perform better than a person who is untrained.  

I do think it's very possible (and in some cases, probable) that a person can be less capable of defending him or herself as a direct result of *unrealistic *training.  In the video below, you have a person who has clearly been told he is exceptionally talented.  


You can easily find dozens of similar auditions, and in all of them, you can see the cognitive dissonance when they are confronted with real, honest feedback.  This is just one example.  

Fighting works the same way.  In the absence of honest, realistic feedback, people start getting the wrong impression.  The major difference is that in the case of American Idol, the consequence is humiliation.  In the case of a fight, the consequences are more painful.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Not exactly the example of great or even good striking skills:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude.  You're just not getting my point.  I'll chalk it up to me not being able to explain it well enough.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> All the facetious responses you've gotten aside, Yes Judo is effective in a real fight, more important anytime you have a someone with training vs someone with no training, the odds will he in favor of the person with training.


Unrelated to the thread, but welcome back to the site! Hope you've been well. (Can't recall when I changed my username-likely after you left. I was kempodisciple)


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## lklawson (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating. You just get up and attack again!!!



Here's the answer to the OP's question and to your <cough> "assertion."


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Not exactly the example of great or even good striking skills:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you paint starry night while riding horseback? It's going to be much more difficult to keep perfect form and technique while in the fire vs in an easier setting.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Unrelated to the thread, but welcome back to the site! Hope you've been well. (Can't recall when I changed my username-likely after you left. I was kempodisciple)


Thank you, I am alive.


----------



## wolfeyes2323 (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


Only if they understand that a fight of this 
unequal nature is won and lost before it begins.
It can not become a contest of strength or skills,
the smaller person needs the advantages of strong 
position and suddenness (surprise), and must 
understand how to keep advantage once gained.
The engagement can not be allowed to degenerate
into a wrestling match,  they can not be allowed
to recover and start over, and they can not be allowed
to tap ,  once in control there needs to be escape
or finish.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Could you paint starry night while riding horseback? It's going to be much more difficult to keep perfect form and technique while in the fire vs in an easier setting.


And yet, the other gal in both fights, is doing just that. Okay, sure, they are not keeping perfect form all the time, because a fight is a fight. But, the opponent in both fights is clearly on a much higher level of striking than Ronda. Just as Silva was on another level than Maia. They move better, use lateral movement and angles, use jabs and straight punches, set up their techniques, they don't telegraph what they are doing, they use good (sometimes great) foot work, control the distance... Sorry, but running straight in, chin first, hands down while randomly swinging wide looping punches that you were kind enough to telegraph beforehand... is not competent striking. It just is not. 

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying striking is better than grappling. I am not saying that grappling is better than striking. They are both very good. The difference is the fighter and how they implement those skills. One of the most important determining factors of a fight, is who decides what type of fight it is. If the grappler can make the striker grapple, he has an advantage. If the striker can make the grappler strike, he has an advantage.

The biggest lesson from MMA that I have found, is whoever determines what type of fight you have, has an advantage. Once you establish that you are determining what type of fight it is... you have another very important decision... Do you want to force the fight you are good at or the fight they your opponent is bad at? When the answer to what you are good at and the other guy is bad at, is the same, its very easy to answer. But, sometimes, what you are good at and what they are bad at are different. Now, its a harder question. But, if you can not determine what type of fight it is... you are at a great disadvantage.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

wab25 said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> For trained Judoka landing on a mat... it is not incapacitating... until it is. Kimura would throw Judo champions with o soto gari, on Judo mats and gave them concussions. Most people, when thrown full force by a Judo player, even on a mat, will not get right back up. (Most Judo players will not throw newbies and beginners that hard... they are nice folks and if they break people on the first day, they have no one to practice with...) There are videos on youtube of real Judo throws being used in real fights. (I would post some, I have in the past, but they now all require adult sign in to watch)  When done on sidewalks, asphalt or tile... it usually results in a KO if the guy lands on his head. If they miss the head, they have problems just breathing, and don't usually get back up.
> 
> Judo also focuses on choking. They are quite good at choking people out, which tends to end fights fairly quickly too.


Like I said, I actually spent 9 months learning. Judo don't have a lot of choke and submission like BJJ or even Wrestling. It's not easy to throw a strong guy down, we played with it before.

Of cause, if you practice for years, yes, it can work. BUT it's not efficient, not many people have the patience to practice for years. You should know how much turn over in MA classes, I would say average is 8 months or so. Only a few stays for years. You get a lot in 8 months with striking MA, not judo, I spent 9 months, I don't dare to use it. When chips are down, it's still kick boxing for me......Now, the cane.

Now, if you learn BJJ, kick boxing together, then it's good. Judo will enhance other things you learn. But I assume the thread is talking about judo only. Striking will get you close to the opponent, then you have a chance to throw him.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said, I actually spent 9 months learning.


Did you *actually *train for 9 months? Or was it really 8 months and 3 weeks? If its a real 9 months, as opposed to 8 months and 3 weeks, then I will have to bow to your authority on the subject here... but only if you trained for the full 9 months...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You get a lot in 8 months with striking MA, not judo, I spent 9 months, I don't dare to use it.


It depends on how you train.

During the first 6 months of my Chinese wrestling training, my teacher forced me to use just 1 technique on the mat. After 6 months, he then told me to use that technique to set up other techniques.

One of my Chinese wrestling brothers forced his son to train just 1 technique within 2 years.

IMO, if you just concentrate on 1 technique and wrestle 15 rounds daily, 9 months is more than enough.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

One is better at striking than the other but I wouldn't say either one are bad strikers. It's not as if Ronda proclaimed she'll only need grappling to win her matches. She trained both but due to her background as a Judoka she relied too much on that and the consequences are there on how that went.

And to the OP who said throws aren't incapacitating, I'm sure if someone performed a uke waza on you anywhere mat or street or sand or grass. You're gonna be incapacitated.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said, I actually spent 9 months learning. Judo don't have a lot of choke and submission like BJJ or even Wrestling. It's not easy to throw a strong guy down, we played with it before.
> 
> Of cause, if you practice for years, yes, it can work. BUT it's not efficient, not many people have the patience to practice for years. You should know how much turn over in MA classes, I would say average is 8 months or so. Only a few stays for years. You get a lot in 8 months with striking MA, not judo, I spent 9 months, I don't dare to use it. When chips are down, it's still kick boxing for me......Now, the cane.
> 
> Now, if you learn BJJ, kick boxing together, then it's good. Judo will enhance other things you learn. But I assume the thread is talking about judo only. Striking will get you close to the opponent, then you have a chance to throw him.


Oh man, there's so much you don't know about Judo. *sigh*


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


I'm 77, 5'2" and I can still move fast and strong and take down guys bigger than me. I teach my version of American Kenpo. I have been in physical altercations and any type of martial art training will help you. Yes, Judo would, should help you in a conflict. Even though the Judo moves were taken out of Jujitsu it make it safer for competition, the way I understand it. That said, the female should know some strikes and kicks and combined with judo, she a chance of winning. But one strike and she's out. That said, Judo would not be the choice to take if you were looking for a self defense art. You really need a punching land kicking art which also has joint locks in it. My Kenpo has Aikido moves in it and I put in many more joint locks, because in a altercation, at one precise moment, you don't know what you will need, till you need it.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Oh man, there's so much you don't know about Judo. *sigh*


Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it. If I were to do it again, I'd spend time on BJJ, Wrestling instead. It would be time much better spent.

Judo is just too specialize and too limited. For self defense, there are much better options than judo.

Like I said before, any training is better than nothing. Even if you train only in weight lifting, it's much better off than anyone that doesn't know anything, at least you can throw them around.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it. If I were to do it again, I'd spend time on BJJ, Wrestling instead. It would be time much better spent.
> 
> Judo is just too specialize and too limited. For self defense, there are much better options than judo.
> 
> Like I said before, anything training is better than nothing. Ever if you train only in weight lifting, it's much better off than anyone that doesn't know anything, at least you can throw them around.


That's your opinion based on orange belt techniques tops. Again, you know so little about Judo it is impossible for you to make an educated decision.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I'm 77, 5'2" and I can still move fast and strong and take down guys bigger than me. I teach my version of American Kenpo. I have been in physical altercations and any type of martial art training will help you. Yes, Judo would, should help you in a conflict. Even though the *Judo moves were taken out of Jujitsu it make it safer for competition, *the way I understand it. That said, the female should know some strikes and kicks and combined with judo, she a chance of winning. But one strike and she's out. That said, Judo would not be the choice to take if you were looking for a self defense art. You really need a punching land kicking art which also has joint locks in it. My Kenpo has Aikido moves in it and I put in many more joint locks, because in a altercation, at one precise moment, you don't know what you will need, till you need it.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else. Nothing like the ground game in BJJ. And they start the fight holding each other's clothes and tuck each other around. If judo meets with someone that stick and move, they are going to have a hell of a time getting hold of the opponent. Forget about throwing the opponent down.

I might be only in it for 9 months, but I've seen much more advanced people "fighting"( if you can call that). It's a safe sparring though.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> That's your opinion based on orange belt techniques tops. Again, you know so little about Judo it is impossible for you to make an educated decision.


Like I said over and over, if I were to do it again, I'd go for BJJ and Wrestling to add to kick boxing, NOT JUDO. You can keep it. Time would be much and I repeat MUCH better spent learning BJJ and Wrestling that actually works and proven in UFC.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said over and over, if I were to do it again, I'd go for BJJ and Wrestling to add to kick boxing, NOT JUDO. You can keep it. Time would be much and I repeat MUCH better spent learning BJJ and Wrestling that actually works and proven in UFC.


Do you plan on becoming a UFC fighter? That isn't the topic you originally spoke about.

You're talking about self defense training which are completely separate things.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it.


A simple take down technique like this can be very useful in fighting.

This is the most logical take down. You let your arms to deal with your opponent's arms. You let your leg to deal with your opponent's leg. You don't need to drop down too low to expose your head. You don't need to grab on your opponent's clothes. A simple left downward parry, arm wrap, and right comb hair, head lock, you are in.


----------



## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else.


The Jujitsu, that Judo was taken from was not BJJ. It was from Japanese Jujitsu, most of which only had cooperative training. (two person katas) Judo wanted to practice against fully resistant opponents. So, yes some moves were removed, so that the moves that were kept could be practiced at full force, against a fully resisting and attacking opponent.

Notice how they do not start in a sleeve and lapel grip, but have to fight for it:





Also notice, the guy got knocked out by the throw.





Another throw Knocking out an opponent. 

You can see this one better (2nd take down):





Here is a Judo throw being used in MMA, watch the guys hands go limp when he hits the mat.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Do you plan on becoming a UFC fighter? That isn't the topic you originally spoke about.
> 
> You're talking about self defense training which are completely separate things.


UFC sure show what is useful and what is not. Like I said, even if you only train in weight lifting, it's better than someone that doesn't know anything in self defense. That does NOT mean weight training is good for self defense.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

wab25 said:


> The Jujitsu, that Judo was taken from was not BJJ. It was from Japanese Jujitsu, most of which only had cooperative training. (two person katas) Judo wanted to practice against fully resistant opponents. So, yes some moves were removed, so that the moves that were kept could be practiced at full force, against a fully resisting and attacking opponent.
> 
> Notice how they do not start in a sleeve and lapel grip, but have to fight for it:
> 
> ...


So why not learn Jujitsu instead? better yet, learn BJJ and wrestling instead? Why learn the water down version?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So why not learn Jujitsu instead? better yet, learn BJJ and wrestling instead? Why learn the water down version?


Where did you get from that post that Judo is a watered down version of any of those?


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> UFC sure show what is useful and what is not. Like I said, even if you only train in weight lifting, it's better than someone that doesn't know anything in self defense. That does NOT mean weight training is good for self defense.


And in UFC you don't have to worry about awareness of one's surroundings, you don't have to worry about reading a crowd, you'll never have to worry about the possibility of a weapon being pulled on you. So no "UFC" is not good for self defense.  


Alan0354 said:


> So why not learn Jujitsu instead? better yet, learn BJJ and wrestling instead? Why learn the water down version?


If you take up traditional Jujitsu then you would be doing a lot of cooperative regiments similar to a two person Kata, you would be learning about weapons as well many flourishy pleasing to the eye techniques, Judo removed that and fixated on only techniques that work on someone fighting against you. 

Judo is watered down in the sense of it removed what wasn't applicable to fighting outside of feudal Japan.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> And in UFC you don't have to worry about awareness of one's surroundings, you don't have to worry about reading a crowd, you'll never have to worry about the possibility of a weapon being pulled on you. So no "UFC" is not good for self defense.
> 
> If you take up traditional Jujitsu then you would be doing a lot of cooperative regiments similar to a two person Kata, you would be learning about weapons as well many flourishy pleasing to the eye techniques, Judo removed that and fixated on only techniques that work on someone fighting against you.
> 
> Judo is watered down in the sense of it removed what wasn't applicable to fighting outside of feudal Japan.


Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?

If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Where did you get from that post that Judo is a watered down version of any of those?


Read who I reply to.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?
> 
> If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?


That depends on the kind of Judo you are learning. If it is strictly Olympic Judo which is IJF then no it wouldn't. If it is Kodokan Judo then that is more self defense oriented.


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## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?
> 
> If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?


Exactly how are BJJ and Wrestling "Complete?" They both lack many useful techniques. Tell me how well a wrestler can throw a spinning back kick. How well can a jujitsero throw a straight?


----------



## wab25 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?


You should look up the history of the BJJ move: the Kimura. BJJ calls a reverse ude-garami, a Kimura, in respect for the Judo player named Masahiko Kimura. Kimura took a challenge match with Helio Gracie (the founder of BJJ) and after throwing him repeatedly, submitted him with a reverse ude-garami, breaking Helio's arm. So which one is effective?

My answer is both. Its down to the fighter. 

If you want to learn BJJ or wrestling, great. Both are very effective, if used correctly. In both, you will need to learn to force the other guy into fighting a grappling game. Maia, in the first video I showed in this thread is exactly that, a champion BJJ fighter. However, he could not force Silva into a grappling game... so his BJJ could not be used. Yes, it is possible for to use BJJ against a striker, but you need to force the fight you want. 

All the arts being discussed here, have been used with great success in full contact competition inside their own arts and outside in MMA and in real street fights. What makes the outcome of each of these successful or not, is the fighters involved.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Exactly how are BJJ and Wrestling "Complete?" They both lack many useful techniques. Tell me how well a wrestler can throw a spinning back kick. How well can a jujitsero throw a straight?


I think UFC and all MMA people will disagree with you. Can judo throw a spin back kick or straight?

Yes, BJJ and wrestling is proven in the Octagon for years. They are not perfect, that's why MMA combine Tae Kwon Do kicks, boxing hands, wrestling and BJJ together.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I think UFC and all MMA people will disagree with you. Can judo throw a spin back kick or straight?
> 
> Yes, BJJ and wrestling is proven in the Octagon for years. They are not perfect, that's why MMA combine Tae Kwon Do kicks, boxing hands, wrestling and BJJ together.


I never said Judo is a complete art. You however said BJJ is.


----------



## Doc (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


To use the term, "real fight" and judoka would seem to be intellectually incongruent. Although essentially anything can be converted to some type of martial activity, Judo itself by design is not a fighting art persé and therefore is immediately handicapped by its own creative purposes. Designed as a "sporting activity" that begins any resemblance of combat with adversaries grabbing each other's tops or clothes and then attempting to throw and leverage your opponent to the ground for points and/or "pins," would seem to belie a "street fight" tendency to begin with some type of striking. Adding to the equation the question of female versus male exacerbates the problem because of differences in body mass. Probably more than any other martial activity judo recognizes the discrepancies in weight between opponents in general and particularly between males and females. Its creator, Jiguro Kano, recognized that and because advancement requires "randori" or Judo sparring, he purposely did several things. He created the popular belt ranking system used by most today that separated participants by skill level. But he went further as well and divided them into general weight classes, and separated males from females for a reason. Body mass matters in Judo. I'm reminded of a story I read in Black Belt Magazine back in the sixties. There was a famous Judo Master who had a young student who outweighed him by over 100 pounds. The master was very honest when asked the question, "how do you randori him?" He essentially said, "I can't do anything. I can't sweep him, I can't throw him. All he does is when we clinch he just falls down and I'm pinned. He doesn't have to do much of anything." I think somewhere in there lies the answer to a not so well thought out question with too many variables that fall in the man's favor to be answered seriously.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2021)

Doc said:


> To use the term, "real fight" and judoka would seem to be intellectually incongruent. Although essentially anything can be converted to some type of martial activity, Judo itself by design is not a fighting art persé and therefore is immediately handicapped by its own creative purposes. Designed as a "sporting activity" that begins any resemblance of combat with adversaries grabbing each other's tops or clothes and then attempting to throw and leverage your opponent to the ground for points and/or "pins," would seem to belie a "street fight" tendency to begin with some type of striking. Adding to the equation the question of female versus male exacerbates the problem because of differences in body mass. Probably more than any other martial activity judo recognizes the discrepancies in weight between opponents in general and particularly between males and females. Its creator, Jiguro Kano, recognized that and because advancement requires "randori" or Judo sparring, he purposely did several things. He created the popular belt ranking system used by most today that separated participants by skill level. But he went further as well and divided them into general weight classes, and separated males from females for a reason. Body mass matters in Judo. I'm reminded of a story I read in Black Belt Magazine back in the sixties. There was a famous Judo Master who had a young student who outweighed him by over 100 pounds. The master was very honest when asked the question, "how do you randori him?" He essentially said, "I can't do anything. I can't sweep him, I can't throw him. All he does is when we clinch he just falls down and I'm pinned. He doesn't have to do much of anything." I think somewhere in there lies the answer to a not so well thought out question with too many variables that fall in the man's favor to be answered seriously.


I don't think it's as stark a line as all that. The OP was stated as an elite female Judoka vs. an untrained male of below-average weight (150 lbs., so 25 lbs. less than me, and I'm not a big guy). That 45lbs. difference is an advantage, but is likley offset by the Judoka's experience, which almost certainly includes randori against men bigger than her. Meanwhile, the untrained guy almost certainly has no experience working against a competent Judoka, so hasn't any functional grappling defense if she gets inside.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Read who I reply to.


I did. None of that reply indicated judo was a watered down version of any of those arts (and actually only mentioned one of the arts).


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I did. None of that reply indicated judo was a watered down version of any of those arts (and actually only mentioned one of the arts).


Read one more time.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 31, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> I never said Judo is a complete art. You however said BJJ is.


Much more complete, watch Royce Gracie. Watch the first year or two of UFC, dominated by BJJ and wrestling. They really didn't strike much. Took people a long time to solve the ground game puzzle.


----------



## MrBigglesworth (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?



Hey kid, get off your phone and pay attention to the teacher.


----------



## Mider (Aug 31, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


105 pounds lol?

idk...I mean Ronda Rousey is around 130 and she’d def beat most men’s asses unless they were trained


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Read one more time.


No matter how many times he reads it, it won't say something it doesn't say.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Much more complete, watch Royce Gracie. Watch the first year or two of UFC, dominated by BJJ and wrestling. They really didn't strike much. Took people a long time to solve the ground game puzzle.


Which again isn't self defense.

That had little to do with bjj and more of the fact that the gracies had been involved in vale tudo circuits for years which was pretty much mma at the time. Those strikers went against a grappler who had experience dealing with both strikers and grapplers.

If you have a person who has only done sport bjj I wouldn't count on them faring well against an experienced boxer or kickboxer, and as someone had already stated to you; it was judoka who destroyed the grand father (hello gracie) of bjj in a match that he himself set all the rules for.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Read one more time.


I did. Still not seeing it. Can you point where he said it in the post you replied to?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2021)

Training matters
size matters - see weight categories / bands / etc 
...
I have told many a  person who wished to engage me, "Be careful, once you knock me out, I could still fall on you and hurt you."
Being 6'3"+ (192 cm) and about 345 lbs (156.5 kg) 
...
Considering the above: 
It really all depends upon that moment. 
Is one having a bad physical or mental day or emotional day? 
Just enough to get them off their timing. 

Is the other person having a great day and just everything falls into place for them? 

...
It depends


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Then it's whoever gets the better of the other at that time.
> 
> Sometimes Johnny wins and sometimes Joe wins.  And so goes the fight game.



Not really. The grappler tends to win. Mcmap I think did a study.

But my theory is a grappler will advance his position and therefore his chances of winning. Where a striker tends to have to work from a 50/50 position untill he wins.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?
> 
> If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?



Actually if you train in the real world. Both teach you awareness of your surroundings. Because you generally spar and have to share a mat with 20 other people. 

And running over people all the time makes you look like a duche


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Not really. The grappler tends to win. Mcmap I think did a study.
> 
> But my theory is a grappler will advance his position and therefore his chances of winning. Where a striker tends to have to work from a 50/50 position untill he wins.


In another thread that OP talks about footwork. I ask, "If you have moved in, why do you want to move back before you finish your job?" I then realize that the OP is talking about the striking art only - to maintain optimal punching range.

For the grappling art, if you have moved in, you won't move back until you have taken your opponent down. IMO, the grappler has more aggressive attitude than a striker has.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Actually if you train in the real world. Both teach you awareness of your surroundings. Because you generally spar and have to share a mat with 20 other people.
> 
> And running over people all the time makes you look like a duche


Some of my best awareness training, oddly, came at an Aikido dojo in Portugal. It's a big room with pillars all over the place. I've never worked so hard to pay attention to my sourroundings as doing unfamiliar techniques and being afraid I'm going to leave blood on the walls.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it. I


How could you?  You spent less time learning it than it takes to potty train a child.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else. Nothing like the ground game in BJJ. And they start the fight holding each other's clothes and tuck each other around. If judo meets with someone that stick and move, they are going to have a hell of a time getting hold of the opponent. Forget about throwing the opponent down.
> 
> I might be only in it for 9 months, but I've seen much more advanced people "fighting"( if you can call that). It's a safe sparring though.


Not exactly.  That's a very superficial understanding of the goal, process, and results which ends up being both inaccurate and misleading.


----------



## wab25 (Sep 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> But my theory is a grappler will advance his position and therefore his chances of winning. Where a striker tends to have to work from a 50/50 position untill he wins.


Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.

If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker. 

Strikers advance their position all the time. They have many ways to do so. It just looks different than advancing your position in grappling... but it is still advancing your position.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> For the grappling art, if you have moved in, you won't move back until you have taken your opponent down. IMO, the grappler has more aggressive attitude than a striker has.


Both are trying to put the opponent in the place where they will receive the most damage from their techniques. If both are trying to put their opponent in the worst possible position, how is one a more aggressive attitude than the other? Yes, the positions are different, and the techniques used are different, but both are trying to break the other guy as much as possible. Both are aggressive.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Judo is watered down in the sense of it removed what wasn't applicable to fighting outside of feudal Japan.


That wasn't Kano's goal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?


Hmm... this is starting to look really familiar.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Can judo throw a spin back kick or straight?


If you want to, yes.  Strikes and kicking are part of the official syllabus of Judo (depending on which organization) and exist in various kata (such as USJA's Tandoku Renshu).  The reason that you think these aren't part of Judo is because 99.99% of Judo is focused on Olympic or variations of modern Shiai rules (the sport), which typically disallow striking.  There are a few old-school Judo instructors who teach it, but it's not as common.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else. Nothing like the ground game in BJJ. And they start the fight holding each other's clothes and tuck each other around. If judo meets with someone that stick and move, they are going to have a hell of a time getting hold of the opponent. Forget about throwing the opponent down.
> 
> I might be only in it for 9 months, but I've seen much more advanced people "fighting"( if you can call that). It's a safe sparring though.


What ground game is contained in Judo seems to vary a lot. In general, it has apparently become more limited as the ruleset for competition has de-emphasized the ground game. Back a thousand years ago when I was training, my instructor had competed under rules that had more ground game, so our training had more ground game to it (he was very focused on training to the realities of competition).

But as I understand it, there are still Judo schools that teach the original curriculum (which did include strikes and a self-defense set). And there are still schools that teach significant ground work. But even someone who only trains for the current ruleset will be able to get throws on someone trying to evade them - they are, after all, training to get throws on folks who know how to stop them from doing those throws. The evasion there is different, but many of the principles still apply.

As for dealing with strikes, as with BJJ, it will likely depend how they train. But they are trained to get in and control arms, so if they get past the first punch...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?
> 
> If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?


If one is choosing what to learn, why not fencing or horseriding?

People choose what they want.


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread that OP talks about footwork. I ask, "If you have moved in, why do you want to move back before you finish your job?" I then realize that the OP is talking about the striking art only - to maintain optimal punching range.
> 
> For the grappling art, if you have moved in, you won't move back until you have taken your opponent down. IMO, the grappler has more aggressive attitude than a striker has.


There are plenty of reasons to "move out" after "moving in" when grappling and throwing.  It's about finding leverage and balance points.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If one is choosing what to learn, why not fencing or horseriding?


Both were so effective that they were a standard part of Western military combat training from WWI going back to before the fall of Rome.  They were considered so integral to the basic skills required of a fighting man that they were immediately made part of the re-imagined Olympics in 1896.  Horsemanship skills were considered so important that the word "Cavalier" (or "Chevalier") became synonymous with "Knight."

Yeah, if this Allan (troll?) fella wants to learn "real world proven effective" for *literally* thousands of years straight, then equestrianism is one of the most valid areas of study.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.
> 
> If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.
> 
> ...


My take on what he said was that a grappler is constantly advancing his position. This is really clear in watching a BJJer moving systematically toward a submission. I don't think there's the same thing in striking, except in the progressive working on one part of the body (like the MT fighter kicking the thigh to weaken the leg). It's not really position, but serves much of the same purpose.


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## wab25 (Sep 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My take on what he said was that a grappler is constantly advancing his position. This is really clear in watching a BJJer moving systematically toward a submission. I don't think there's the same thing in striking, except in the progressive working on one part of the body (like the MT fighter kicking the thigh to weaken the leg). It's not really position, but serves much of the same purpose.


I'll use a boxing example. You have a short boxer fighting a tall boxer. The short boxer is constantly advancing his position. He wants to get inside and close to the taller boxer. Inside and close, the shorter boxer has the advantage, its easier for him to throw full power punches and harder for the taller boxer to hit him. If you watch a boxing match, with a short guy verses a tall guy, usually, you will see the shorter guy continuously advancing his position, trying to cut off the ring, get the taller guy on the ropes and get inside. This is similar to the grappler advancing his position. Both are moving to a position where they have an advantage and the other guy has a disadvantage.

If we consider "advancing your position" as moving to a position where you have the advantage over the other guy... Then, once our tall boxer gets pressed into the ropes... he works on advancing his position. That is he is working to get off the ropes and establish distance, where he can hit the shorter guy but the shorter guy cannot hit him. The tall guy is constantly advancing to one position, where he has an advantage and the shorter guy is constantly advancing to a different position, where he has the advantage.

Further, boxers (and all strikers) work towards angles. They want to come in at an angle, because when you come in at an angle, it gives you an advantage... its easier to land your punch, and it is harder for the other guy to defend or land his own punch. Now, you can't just step to the side and then punch... the other guy will turn and take away your angle. You have to set it up. Foot work, head movement, feints, jabs... all kinds of things are used to set up the opportunity for you to get that angle, where you can deliver your punch. Most of the time when you see two boxers dancing and feinting and circling... they are both trying to advance to a position of advantage over the other guy. 

A good example of this is an orthodox boxer against a southpaw. Whoever has their lead foot to the outside, has the advantage. You will see both fighters constantly trying to establish their lead foot as the outside foot. Again they are constantly advancing their position.

Yes, in grappling you tend to maintain the dominant position for great lengths of time... you are mounted for a few minutes, you work towards establishing half guard for a few minutes and then full guard, where you hope to stay while you set up your submission or sweep to an even better position, which you then hope to keep.

Striking works in a similar manner. First you work to maintain the distance that you want to fight at. Usually each fighter is working to establish a different range, one that gives them the advantage. Then they are looking for location. Do you want to be in the center of the ring, on the ropes or have the other guy on the ropes or in the corner? All of these positions have advantages and disadvantages. If you are in the corner, you work to advance to the ropes, then to either reverse the position (sweep???) and put the other guy on the ropes or you can escape back to the center of the ring. Once you have your range established, as opposed to the other guys range, you work on trying to set up your technique, getting your angle for your punch or combination to land. Yes, these angles tend to last a lot shorter of a time than a position in grappling... but they are just as important. And there is just as much work done to get to these positions... its just done differently. But the range, and location of the fight, those are things each fighter is always trying to gain and keep, for the duration of the fight... just like taking the other guys back in grappling, if you can get it, you keep it, while the other guy tries to advance his own position out of it.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Sep 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "If you have moved in, why do you want to move back before you finish your job?"


Exactly.  Many generals have advocated not taking the same ground twice.  Why retreat?  Even a failed attack can be used to advance your position.  


wab25 said:


> Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well?


Many don't.  Because most karate fighters do not know how to fight at grappling range, with either wraps, locks, knees, stomps, elbows, etc.  These things do not score points so longer range moves are drilled.  This is the difference between sport karate and combat self-defense karate. 

Sport fighters do not need to advance their position after the scoring strike.  Once scored, that strike has finished its job.    Combat fighters use that strike to advance the landings of additional strikes till the opponent is non-threat.  In other words, in combat, landed strikes are a means to an end - in sport, landed strikes are the end.


----------



## wab25 (Sep 1, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Many don't. Because most karate fighters do not know how to fight at grappling range, with either wraps, locks, knees, stomps, elbows, etc. These things do not score points so longer range moves are drilled.


I think you are confusing "advancing position" with "closing distance." If I have someone in my guard, and then I take their back... I am no closer or farther away from him, yet I have advanced my position. You do not have to close distance, in order to advance your position. Advancing your position is putting yourself into a position with a greater advantage or lesser disadvantage to the one you started in. In the grappling world, that means a different pin. In the striking world, it means something different. If you are the taller boxer, and you are pushed up against the ropes by the shorter boxer... you advance your position by getting off the ropes and out to a distance where you can hit him, but he cannot hit you. You advanced from a position where he could hit you, and you had a harder time hitting him to a position where he cannot hit you, and you can hit him.



isshinryuronin said:


> Sport fighters do not need to advance their position after the scoring strike. Once scored, that strike has finished its job. Combat fighters use that strike to advance the landings of additional strikes till the opponent is non-threat. In other words, in combat, landed strikes are a means to an end - in sport, landed strikes are the end.


Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA are sports where the strike landing is not the end. The fighters do advance their position, using strikes. They follow up with strikes, and set up bigger strikes and combos.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> I'll use a boxing example. You have a short boxer fighting a tall boxer. The short boxer is constantly advancing his position. He wants to get inside and close to the taller boxer. Inside and close, the shorter boxer has the advantage, its easier for him to throw full power punches and harder for the taller boxer to hit him. If you watch a boxing match, with a short guy verses a tall guy, usually, you will see the shorter guy continuously advancing his position, trying to cut off the ring, get the taller guy on the ropes and get inside. This is similar to the grappler advancing his position. Both are moving to a position where they have an advantage and the other guy has a disadvantage.
> 
> If we consider "advancing your position" as moving to a position where you have the advantage over the other guy... Then, once our tall boxer gets pressed into the ropes... he works on advancing his position. That is he is working to get off the ropes and establish distance, where he can hit the shorter guy but the shorter guy cannot hit him. The tall guy is constantly advancing to one position, where he has an advantage and the shorter guy is constantly advancing to a different position, where he has the advantage.
> 
> ...


That's a great explanation. I tend not to think so fully on the striking game, since I'm more likely to transition to grappling past a certain point. But even then, I suppose I'm usually working to get position to transition.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> I think you are confusing "advancing position" with "closing distance." If I have someone in my guard, and then I take their back... I am no closer or farther away from him, yet I have advanced my position. You do not have to close distance, in order to advance your position. Advancing your position is putting yourself into a position with a greater advantage or lesser disadvantage to the one you started in. In the grappling world, that means a different pin. In the striking world, it means something different. If you are the taller boxer, and you are pushed up against the ropes by the shorter boxer... you advance your position by getting off the ropes and out to a distance where you can hit him, but he cannot hit you. You advanced from a position where he could hit you, and you had a harder time hitting him to a position where he cannot hit you, and you can hit him.
> 
> 
> Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA are sports where the strike landing is not the end. The fighters do advance their position, using strikes. They follow up with strikes, and set up bigger strikes and combos.


The more I think about this, the more I realize I do play for position in striking more than I had considered. There are positions I prefer to play from (distance or angle) and I work to maneuver us both to create those positions.


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## frank raud (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other.


In 9 months of training, you never did any randori?  You never did grip fighting? The only matches in judo that start with opponents having their hands on each other is for blind people. Do you learn individual techniques from the position? Yes. If you were taught that free fighting(randori) starts from a grip, then your school sucked, not the art.


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## frank raud (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> . Judo don't have a lot of choke and submission like BJJ or even Wrestling


I'm going to guess you were a child when you trained judo.  They tend to not teach chokes, strangles or armbars to little kiddies  PS. where do you think the Mata de Leo (rear naked choke comes from? Or the triangle choke?  Or just about  any other choke in BJJ? With your extensive knowledge, you realize many sessions in BJJ begin with both partners on their knees?

What submission is there in wrestling?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Sep 1, 2021)

frank raud said:


> In 9 months of training, you never did any randori?  You never did grip fighting? The only matches in judo that start with opponents having their hands on each other is for blind people. Do you learn individual techniques from the position? Yes. If you were taught that free fighting(randori) starts from a grip, then your school sucked, not the art.


I doubt he did any randori, sounds like he barely made it beyond white belt just getting into orange.


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## john_newman (Sep 1, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


Definitely She will smoke that untrained man away like a dust... Lol


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> I doubt he did any randori, sounds like he barely made it beyond white belt just getting into orange.


Even at that level, we did a bit of randori in my classes. In my case it wasn't with anything like real resistance, since I was the only new person in the classes at the time (the few other students had at least 2-3 years, as I recall).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> I doubt he did any randori, sounds like he barely made it beyond white belt just getting into orange.


I did randori starting basically day one. Got thrown on my *** over and over, but it was fun. I'd be surprised if you still haven't done randori 9 months in.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Both are trying to put the opponent in the place where they will receive the most damage from their techniques. If both are trying to put their opponent in the worst possible position, how is one a more aggressive attitude than the other? Yes, the positions are different, and the techniques used are different, but both are trying to break the other guy as much as possible. Both are aggressive.


This is why a grappler likes to grab on his opponent's arm/arms. When his opponent moves back, his opponent will pull him forward. If he can adds in his own forward momentum, his forward movement can be faster than his opponent's backward retreat.

The grappler needs much closer distance than a striker does. The grappler has no option but to move forward, move forward, and still move forward.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2021)

lklawson said:


> There are plenty of reasons to "move out" after "moving in" when grappling and throwing.  It's about finding leverage and balance points.


The wrestler's move out is different from the striker's move out. When you move in and try to throw your opponent backward, your opponent resists, you borrow his resistance force, use 3 points footwork to move out, and throw him forward. So in wrestling, the move out footwork is also attack.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The wrestler's move out is different from the striker's move out. When you move in and try to throw your opponent backward, your opponent resists, you borrow his resistance force, use 3 points footwork to move out, and throw him forward. So in wrestling, the move out footwork is also attack.


A grappler may also wish to disengage if he doesn't like the position he's in. If the other guy's grip is limiting my choices, one option is to try to disengage entirely and re-enter.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I did randori starting basically day one. Got thrown on my *** over and over, but it was fun. I'd be surprised if you still haven't done randori 9 months in.


Normal curriculum you would be doing it but I'm going odd of the knowledge he is presenting.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.
> 
> If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.
> 
> Strikers advance their position all the time. They have many ways to do so. It just looks different than advancing your position in grappling... but it is still advancing your position.



Yeah but you don't get to keep it. 

Compare cutting an angle to sitting on top of someone. And the difference in the striking advantage.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.
> 
> If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.
> 
> ...


My plan is typically from neutral distance I close the distance using my kicks and punches to get into clinch distance, from clinch I want to bring them to the floor generally using throwing techniques.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2021)

frank raud said:


> I'm going to guess you were a child when you trained judo.  They tend to not teach chokes, strangles or armbars to little kiddies  PS. where do you think the Mata de Leo (rear naked choke comes from? Or the triangle choke?  Or just about  any other choke in BJJ? With your extensive knowledge, you realize many sessions in BJJ begin with both partners on their knees?
> 
> What submission is there in wrestling?



There is sort of submissions in wrestling. And definitely submissions in catch wrestling.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I did randori starting basically day one. Got thrown on my *** over and over, but it was fun. I'd be surprised if you still haven't done randori 9 months in.


It's very important to wrestle on day 1 for the following reasons:

- May be the throwing art is not for everybody. The teacher can suggest a new student to train in other MA school.
- A new student will show how "honest" he is (if you push/pull, he will resist). He won't be that honest 3 months later (if you push/pull, he will yield).
- The teacher want a student to know, it's not how much you know that matter. It's how much you can do that matter.
- If a teacher uses a throw on that new student, later on when that student learns that throw, he will pay attention.
- ...


----------



## lklawson (Sep 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is sort of submissions in wrestling. And definitely submissions in catch wrestling.



Frank Gotch's famous "Toe Hold."






Arm bar and neck lock from Sanddown & Lewis' wrestling:







Clearly a version of the crucifix:





Lots of other examples agree with your assertion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## frank raud (Sep 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is sort of submissions in wrestling. And definitely submissions in catch wrestling.


Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was thinking Greco-Roman or Freestyle wrestling. Momentarily forgot about Catch or submission wrestling.


----------



## Koryuhoka (Sep 1, 2021)

Questions like this are usually asked by very young people.. kids, with very little training.. beginner level at best with limited experience. This question is not really possible to answer. There are too many variables in the real world.


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## wab25 (Sep 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you don't get to keep it.
> 
> Compare cutting an angle to sitting on top of someone. And the difference in the striking advantage.


That's why I started out by discussing the tall fighter keeping range and the short fighter pressing inside. That would be the strikers equivalent to sitting on top of someone. There is a real striking advantage to keeping your opponent at the range where you can hit him, and he cannot hit you. If you are good with your footwork, you can keep that position all fight.

I also brought up getting trapped on the ropes and into the corner. This is closer to grappling, as it takes longer than cutting an angle. And you have to work the other guy into a position he does not want to be in. When you are stuck in the corner, you can reverse (sweep) your opponent into the corner or you can slide out to the ropes. Once on the ropes, you can slide to either side and slip past your opponent, or you can reverse (sweep) him and put him on the ropes. Once you reverse and get your opponent on the ropes, you drive him into the corner, to cut off his lateral movement. While this example is closer to what happens in grappling, it is harder to maintain for the entire fight... though some boxers can and do.

The other things I mentioned, cutting angles and keeping your lead foot outside, are quicker and more temporary than a pin or hold. But, they take setting up, and put the striker into a position of advantage to deliver his technique. Strikers do spend a lot of time working to get these positions of advantage over each other. You could say that they are continually doing so.

I am not arguing that one is better than the other. I am arguing that both grapplers and strikers are continually working to advance their positions. Grapplers use the phrase "position before submission." You are correct, that does not work for strikers... They could use "position before knock out." Both striking and grappling have different positions. These different positions offer different advantages and disadvantages and allow you to do different things. Both groups work are continuously working to get a better position than the one they are currently in. Being in the proper position for a technique, helps that technique be more successful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2021)

wab25 said:


> There is a real striking advantage to keeping your opponent at the range where you can hit him, and he cannot hit you.


In another thread someone said, "a straight punch can defeat circular punch". I always believe it should be the other way around.

Do you think there is a situation that you can use straight punch to hit your opponent, but your opponent cannot use hook punch to hit you (without holding on your opponent's arm)?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was thinking Greco-Roman or Freestyle wrestling. Momentarily forgot about Catch or submission wrestling.



Still sort of. Lots of things like neck cranks that are only technically not submissions because you are not allowed to tap.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread someone said, "a straight punch can defeat circular punch". I always believe it should be the other way around.
> 
> Do you think there is a situation that you can use straight punch to hit your opponent, but your opponent cannot use hook punch to hit you (without holding on your opponent's arm)?



Yes when your straight punch travelling a shorter distance smacks the other guy in the face before his hook punch lands.


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## lklawson (Sep 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another thread someone said, "a straight punch can defeat circular punch". I always believe it should be the other way around.


Champion boxer Jim Driscoll disagrees:




__





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For that matter, going on through the transitional period to modern boxing, straight blows were typically considered superior and round blows were considered, at best, a secondary technique and, at worst, garbage boxing only used by newbs or goobs.

Mendoza seemed OK with round blows and they figure prominently in his lessons, but Mendoza was known to be a small guy, in an era when there were no weight classes, so he liked to close range and in-fight & grapple.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think there is a situation that you can use straight punch to hit your opponent, but your opponent cannot use hook punch to hit you (without holding on your opponent's arm)?



A few.  Here's an example or two.




[Bob Fitzsimmons]



[Billy Edwards]




[Charles Atlas Boxing]

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## john_newman (Sep 2, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> My plan is typically from neutral distance I close the distance using my kicks and punches to get into clinch distance, from clinch I want to bring them to the floor generally using throwing techniques.


That Tactic is also great but i think it would have a bad impression of you in front of the crowd. They may think that you have some sort of fear or trying to be away from the fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2021)

john_newman said:


> That Tactic is also great but i think it would have a bad impression of you in front of the crowd. They may think that you have some sort of fear or trying to be away from the fight.


What does crowd opinion have to do with anything, unless you're going for elite fight money?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Champion boxer Jim Driscoll disagrees:


- You can use a hook punch to knock down a straight punch.
- You can't use a straight punch to knock down a hook punch.

You can also use a hook punch for defense. You can't use a straight punch for defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't use a straight punch for defense.


Why not?


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 2, 2021)

john_newman said:


> That Tactic is also great but i think it would have a bad impression of you in front of the crowd. They may think that you have some sort of fear or trying to be away from the fight.


They can think that, I'm just forcing the fight to be in my favor.


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Exactly how are BJJ and Wrestling "Complete?" They both lack many useful techniques. Tell me how well a wrestler can throw a spinning back kick. How well can a jujitsero throw a straight?


Hey, Ironbear, nice to see you again, bro.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> Hey, Ironbear, nice to see you again, bro.


Thank you. Nice to be back.


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## Hanzou (Sep 2, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Hello, I'm an average guy (5'8/150) who have been training in boxing for 6 months and judo for a month. I just wondering, what if I against an elite female judoka in a real fight.



As a man, why are you concerned about your ability to beat up female martial artists?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Why not?


You tell me.

Let's do a test. If you just concentrate on to use your

1. hook punches to knock down your opponent's straight punches, how many of your opponent's straight punches that can be knocked down by your hook punches?
2. straight punches to knock down your opponent's hook punches, how many of your opponent's hook punches that can be knocked down by your straight punches?

According to my test, I'm in favor 1.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You tell me.
> 
> Let's do a test. If you just concentrate on to use your
> 
> ...


The post I quoted referred to not being able to use a straight punch defensively. There are more ways to defend than blocking, and more things to defend against than a hook punch.

I doubt the ability of a hook punch to outrun a straight punch to knock it down - the acceleration of a jab is tough to get ahead of.


----------



## Buka (Sep 2, 2021)

I've used a straight punch defensively to someone charging in, several times. Works like a charm.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - You can use a hook punch to knock down a straight punch.
> - You can't use a straight punch to knock down a hook punch.
> 
> You can also use a hook punch for defense. You can't use a straight punch for defense.


Nonsense


----------



## lklawson (Sep 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You tell me.
> 
> Let's do a test. If you just concentrate on to use your
> 
> ...


Sorry, but none of this is right.  Single- time straights work perfectly well and always have; from punching all the way through fencing.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


----------



## wab25 (Sep 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - You can use a hook punch to knock down a straight punch.
> - You can't use a straight punch to knock down a hook punch.
> 
> You can also use a hook punch for defense. You can't use a straight punch for defense.


The difference between a straight right punch and a right cross punch is that the right cross, is a straight right punch thrown so that it crosses over your opponents punch, both defending you from their punch while simultaneously delivering a counter straight right punch. Why should a boxer never lead with a left hook? The other guys straight punch will knock him out before the left hook gets there... Throwing a lead left hook is a dangerous punch to be throwing... for the guy throwing it.


----------



## krowe (Sep 3, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


Judo is a throwing art and getting thrown on concrete sucks. Hell, getting swept on concrete sucks. Judo is like any system where for it to translate best into a mode of self defense one would want to train it and pressure test it with that mentality to develop ones skills accordingly. Even if they do not crosstrain boxing I think training in the evasive and defensive footwork and slips of boxing would compliment the techniques of judo very well im terms of how it might need to be modified to account for self defemce scenarios. It would allow the Judo practitioner to be comfortable with strikes and enhance theor ability to position themselves to execute tgeir techniques against non judo practitioners. A skilled Judoka would destroy an untrained individual tho so it really depends on how skilled the practitioner is and if they even need to modify their art much. Cuz untrained people tend to overestimate how hard it is for somebody who has been training a long time to take a person out, assuming they train correctly and develop their skills against resisting opponents. Martial arts is a long term game though. Train long enough and you will realise that ones abikity to fight has more to do with experience fighting and learning how to fight better over time than picking a style. You need a "how do I love this person up" mentality infused into your training. Because the training does not inform you how to fight by itself, you need to think critically, as a scientist would, about how you can improve your ability to do what you intend to do to a person. The style is a framework and a collection of ideas but it is the practitioner who takes those ideas and makes them their own set of skills adapted for that individuals own purposes. Learning a system does not automatically make a person a great fighter or grant a person the ability to defend themselves well under pressure.


----------



## john_newman (Sep 3, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> They can think that, I'm just forcing the fight to be in my favor.


Bro! First of all Good impression makes audience cheer for you.. Second My main concern was not that what people thinks but My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...


----------



## john_newman (Sep 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> What does crowd opinion have to do with anything, unless you're going for elite fight money?


If something is your passion, money will be nothing in front of it..


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Throwing a lead left hook is a dangerous punch to be throwing... for the guy throwing it.


Not if you use your lead left hook to open your opponent's guard. That's why the double hooks (with the same arm) is used for. You use the 1st hook to open your opponent's guard. You then use the 2nd hook to hit.

https://i.postimg.cc/m2JcJmYt/Sanda-double-hooks.gif


----------



## wab25 (Sep 3, 2021)

john_newman said:


> Bro! First of all Good impression makes audience cheer for you..


Believe it or not... not all of us train to fight in front of an audience. So, we are not real concerned with whether they cheer or not.


john_newman said:


> My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...


The tactic he is explaining is a common tactic that can be and has been, quite effective for many people. I will admit it is kind of basic. But it is a place to start. And he knows what he is trying to do, where he wants the fight to be and is confident in being able to force the fight he wants... which is a substantial advantage.

I am not sure what you meant by "it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw..." But that tactic certainly is useful.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2021)

john_newman said:


> My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...


Why?

You use kick to set up punch, use punch to set up clinch, use clinch to take your opponent down. The ground game then start after that.

This is the most natural way to start and finish a fight.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2021)

john_newman said:


> If something is your passion, money will be nothing in front of it..


Okay?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Sep 4, 2021)

john_newman said:


> Bro! First of all Good impression makes audience cheer for you.. Second My main concern was not that what people thinks but My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...


How so?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Sep 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Okay?


That didn't answer your question at all. I'm getting a David Caradine impression here.


----------



## BrendanF (Sep 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not if you use your lead left hook to open your opponent's guard. That's why the double hooks (with the same arm) is used for. You use the 1st hook to open your opponent's guard. You then use the 2nd hook to hit.
> 
> https://i.postimg.cc/m2JcJmYt/Sanda-double-hooks.gif



Those are not 'double hooks' Wang laoshi - it literally says so at the bottom of the screen.  Just FYI.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Those are not 'double hooks' Wang laoshi - it literally says so at the bottom of the screen.  Just FYI.


The hook can be used in many different ways.

It can be a

1. hook punch.
2. hay-maker.
3. head lock.
4. initial part of a spiral punch.
5. initial part of an under hook.
6. wrist grab.
7. downward parry.
8. defense for jab/cross.

Example of using double hooks to achieve double wrists control.


----------



## BrendanF (Sep 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hook can be used in many different ways.
> 
> It can be a
> 
> ...



Those are also not hooks.  The GIF you posted explicitly states 'Rear hand trap lead hand Cross' Your misappropriation of terminology is creating confusion.


----------



## john_newman (Sep 6, 2021)

Ironbear24 said:


> Ironbear24 said:
> 
> 
> > How so?
> ...


----------



## john_newman (Sep 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Okay?


Yup its ok..


----------



## Ironbear24 (Sep 6, 2021)

Yeah you obviously has nothing of substance to add to the conversation,  welcome to being ignored.


----------



## BigMotor (Sep 6, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


Judo works and it has the potential to be deadly effective. The fighter that is using it is the determining factor.

With good training and effort you can become an excellent fighter. Prepare yourself to take some lumps, and give some lumps in matches. That is the best way to test your skill.


----------



## BigMotor (Sep 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> One of our girls beat a judo Olympian
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When she picked that guy up in a choke hold  and lifted, he was toast . I’ve done that in wrestling, and it has the potential to put a hurt on somebody.


----------



## RavenDarkfellow (Sep 12, 2021)

Lalulalang said:


> Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?


While the truth is that anything can happen in a real fight, and therefore even a 105 lb. man could possibly defeat a 220 lbs (muscular) man, the gap between size, strength, and skill creates ever greater unlikelihood in the favour of the bigger/stronger/skilled person.

All that said, in general, I'd put my money on a 105 female master judoka over an average 150 lbs. male, any day.  Short of a "master" (and by that, really I mean black belt.... let's not get into the entirely irrelevant-to-this-conversation dispute about black belt not really being a master, etc.) I don't know.  Weight and strength play significant factors in the world of fighting.  

I, more than a great many people, wish that weren't true-- but it's just reality.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

RavenDarkfellow said:


> While the truth is that anything can happen in a real fight, and therefore even a 105 lb. man could possibly defeat a 220 lbs (muscular) man, the gap between size, strength, and skill creates ever greater unlikelihood in the favour of the bigger/stronger/skilled person.
> 
> All that said, in general, I'd put my money on a 105 female master judoka over an average 150 lbs. male, any day.  Short of a "master" (and by that, really I mean black belt.... let's not get into the entirely irrelevant-to-this-conversation dispute about black belt not really being a master, etc.) I don't know.  Weight and strength play significant factors in the world of fighting.
> 
> I, more than a great many people, wish that weren't true-- but it's just reality.



Honestly I wouldn't put money on her. Judo or no Judo, a 45 lb weight difference isn't easy to overcome, and unfortunately Judo really requires a high proficiency of technical skill to be effective. In other words, the female Judoka really can't afford to make any mistakes. Also unlike more MMA-friendly systems like BJJ, she may have never been taught how to deal with someone striking her while she's trying to throw. That could really place her at a severe disadvantage.

That said, she's better off with Judo than not knowing anything at all.


----------



## RavenDarkfellow (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly I wouldn't put money on her. Judo or no Judo, a 45 lb weight difference isn't easy to overcome, and unfortunately Judo really requires a high proficiency of technical skill to be effective. In other words, the female Judoka really can't afford to make any mistakes. Also unlike more MMA-friendly systems like BJJ, she may have never been taught how to deal with someone striking her while she's trying to throw. That could really place her at a severe disadvantage.
> 
> That said, she's better off with Judo than not knowing anything at all.



I get what you're saying, and there's nothing I particularly disagree with-- except, I think, my conclusion of the sum total of variables.

When we're talking about male vs. female fighters, if we assume the same number of years in the art, the same dedication to said art, and roughly similar physical conditioning, then the only real differences between the female and male fighters are bone density (which can make a difference) and distribution of muscle density.

Women tend to have pound-for-pound higher muscle concentration in their legs, men in their torso and arms.

So 105 female judoka "master" vs. 150 untrained male, means someone with advanced technical grappling (arm) skills and stronger lower body, vs. potentially experienced "street" fighter with a stronger upper body.  Yeah, anything can happen in a fight, and all it takes is one good shot to knock someone out.

I however, made a few assumptions in my original assessment: that the dude is just an average dude (which makes him sloppy and over-confident, since nearly every man thinks he knows how to fight, and seemingly less than 10% of them actually do); and that the Judoka is a true martial artist, and learned how to actually use her judo in real-world situations.

I made that latter assumption because every judo school I've ever been to, has been thoroughly realistic, the practitioners tough and made to drill their basics until it was like breathing, and particularly for most women who are constantly outweighed by their training partners, technique is paramount to in-class "survival".  So if a woman has practised to the point of attaining her black-belt, I would assume she's genuinely quite capable in the art. 

So yeah, I'd still put my money on the woman-- but I guess I've always had a soft spot for the (apparent) underdog. (I.E. She _appears_ to be the underdog due to being 45 lbs. lighter.)

Meanwhile, in BJJ, I'm rolling at around 230lbs. and regularly getting my *** handed to me by dudes at around 160 lbs. Of course, this situation is a little skewed, since I'm fat (but not _that_ fat... I'm also 6'0" and have a decent amount of muscle) and they're mostly quite fit. Still, that's a full fly-weight fighter worth of weight difference, and despite my many years off and on in the art, they're beating me with solid technique more than fitness.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2021)

RavenDarkfellow said:


> I get what you're saying, and there's nothing I particularly disagree with-- except, I think, my conclusion of the sum total of variables.
> 
> When we're talking about male vs. female fighters, if we assume the same number of years in the art, the same dedication to said art, and roughly similar physical conditioning, then the only real differences between the female and male fighters are bone density (which can make a difference) and distribution of muscle density.
> 
> ...



Well there's some pretty stark differences between BJJ and Judo. Judo is far more rigid and really doesn't give people the opportunity to innovate and develop moves and techniques that could more benefit their personal style. In addition, the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents. That in turn increases the required technical proficiency required to properly pull off a Judo technique.

If we were talking about a female black belt in BJJ, I would greatly up her chances.  No offense towards Judo, but BJJ is simply a more robust grappling system.


----------



## RavenDarkfellow (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Well there's some pretty stark differences between BJJ and Judo. Judo is far more rigid and really doesn't give people the opportunity to innovate and develop moves and techniques that could more benefit their personal style. In addition, the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents. That in turn increases the required technical proficiency required to properly pull off a Judo technique.
> 
> If we were talking about a female black belt in BJJ, I would greatly up her chances.  No offense towards Judo, but BJJ is simply a more robust grappling system.



Having practised both, if we're referring to a "good" school (where they train vigorously and with realism), I would expect a fighter who's only trained in Judo to win in a street fight over a fighter who's only trained in BJJ, 4/5 times.  Not that I disagree with your assessment of BJJ as a more robust grappling system (it absolutely is), but because Judo employs a great many of the same locking techniques, just from a philosophy of staying on one's feet vs. going to the ground.  

Judo also contains many techniques for actively defending against strikes, then catching those strikes, transitioning that to a take-down, transitioning that take-down to a submission, all in a single flow.

BJJ on the other hand, assumes nobody will ever be striking, and that you'll be on the ground the whole time. It's 100% better at its specialty, but it's also 100% _locked into_ its specialty. Judo goes from your feet, to the ground, and back up again. 

Aside from Shaolin Gung Fu or Wushu, Judo seems (from what I've learned) to be the single most effective _individual_ art for handling real-world fights.

(I'm not including more modern arts like Krav Maga, Kajukenbo, etc., since these are just amalgams of other arts.  Judo is a unique art offshoot from Japanese Jujutsu, and JJJ arts tend to be pretty robust and effective, themselves.)

If there was some hypothetical scenario where we had to take a completely untrained person, give them one year in a _single_ martial art (again, excluding the arts comprised of multiple arts) for which they had to find a school in North America and become proficient, I would tell them to go Judo, and never look back.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2021)

RavenDarkfellow said:


> Having practised both, if we're referring to a "good" school (where they train vigorously and with realism), I would expect a fighter who's only trained in Judo to win in a street fight over a fighter who's only trained in BJJ, 4/5 times.  Not that I disagree with your assessment of BJJ as a more robust grappling system (it absolutely is), but because Judo employs a great many of the same locking techniques, just from a philosophy of staying on one's feet vs. going to the ground.
> 
> Judo also contains many techniques for actively defending against strikes, then catching those strikes, transitioning that to a take-down, transitioning that take-down to a submission, all in a single flow.
> 
> BJJ on the other hand, assumes nobody will ever be striking, and that you'll be on the ground the whole time. It's 100% better at its specialty, but it's also 100% _locked into_ its specialty. Judo goes from your feet, to the ground, and back up again.




I have no idea where you practiced BJJ, but that assessment is wildly inaccurate. The closed guard alone is based on the assumption that someone will be striking you, and it's pretty much the foundation of BJJ ground fighting. In addition, the notion that a BJJer's strategy is to "stay on the ground the entire time" is wildly inaccurate as well. The sooner you finish them, the sooner you can walk away.

Also how can you say that Judo employs a great many of the same locks when they don't have wrist or leg locks?

I also need to really stress this, because I see this notion a lot, but there's a belief that if you throw someone to the ground, you win and that person never gets back up again. I have seen situations both in real life and video where people are slammed multiple times by wrestlers and Judoka, and they get right back up again and continue to attack. So your gameplan may be to stay on your feet, but that may not always be the case, especially if you have a severe weight disadvantage.



RavenDarkfellow said:


> Aside from Shaolin Gung Fu or Wushu, Judo seems (from what I've learned) to be the single most effective _individual_ art for handling real-world fights.
> 
> (I'm not including more modern arts like Krav Maga, Kajukenbo, etc., since these are just amalgams of other arts.  Judo is a unique art offshoot from Japanese Jujutsu, and JJJ arts tend to be pretty robust and effective, themselves.)
> 
> If there was some hypothetical scenario where we had to take a completely untrained person, give them one year in a _single_ martial art (again, excluding the arts comprised of multiple arts) for which they had to find a school in North America and become proficient, I would tell them to go Judo, and never look back.



Yeah, I'm well aware of the history of Judo. I think it's odd that you're ignoring the decades of codification where many techniques were removed in order to make it a more efficient sport. The removal of leg locks almost a century ago, and the banning of the double leg takedown almost a decade ago would be prime examples.


----------



## Unkogami (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> .....
> 
> I also need to really stress this, because I see this notion a lot, but there's a belief that if you throw someone to the ground, you win and that person never gets back up again. I have seen situations both in real life and video where people are slammed multiple times by wrestlers and Judoka, and they get right back up again and continue to attack. .....


That's why a lot of people make the mistake (in the street) of allowing space between themselves and their opponent during and following a throw or the like.


----------



## RavenDarkfellow (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I have no idea where you practiced BJJ, but that assessment is wildly inaccurate. The closed guard alone is based on the assumption that someone will be striking you, and it's pretty much the foundation of BJJ ground fighting. In addition, the notion that a BJJer's strategy is to "stay on the ground the entire time" is wildly inaccurate as well. The sooner you finish them, the sooner you can walk away.
> 
> Also how can you say that Judo employs a great many of the same locks when they don't have wrist or leg locks?
> 
> ...



I think, perhaps, the disconnect in our information comes from this: as a martial artist, I look specifically for gyms/dojos with a focus on real-world practical application, and true self-defense.  I don't (typically) go to gyms whose primary goal of training is the sport aspect.

That said, when it comes to BJJ, I've never encountered one (in the USA or Canada) whose focus was self-defense over sport.  Every single one I've found has been sport focussed.  Meanwhile, the (admittedly very few) only Judo dojos I've found, they were exclusively focused on self-defense, not sport.

So my personal experience with the arts has been just as I've said-- but my conversations with a broad array of other martial artists have only served to reinforce the assessments based on my experiences.

As far as being "wildly inaccurate", I'm well aware of the closed guard, and its supposed handling of strikes.  Sure, that's good if you can flying-scissors your way onto the dude's body while he's standing, or else get him to the ground in the first place-- but then of course, he can still slam you (which hurts a lot more on a street than it does on a mat in a gym), and beyond that: it's not as though you having full guard on a standing (or grounded) opponent actually puts you at the advantage for dealing with strikes-- at best, it puts you neutral.

I'm not sure you understand the nature of self-defense judo however, because leg-locks and double-leg takedowns aren't good options if your intent is to ground your opponent and then gain a control lock or break his limbs.  That's the intent of Judo.  Not to "throw and let go" as you seem to have the false impression it is.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2021)

RavenDarkfellow said:


> I think, perhaps, the disconnect in our information comes from this: as a martial artist, I look specifically for gyms/dojos with a focus on real-world practical application, and true self-defense.  I don't (typically) go to gyms whose primary goal of training is the sport aspect.
> 
> That said, when it comes to BJJ, I've never encountered one (in the USA or Canada) whose focus was self-defense over sport.  Every single one I've found has been sport focussed.  Meanwhile, the (admittedly very few) only Judo dojos I've found, they were exclusively focused on self-defense, not sport.
> 
> ...



Uh, you mean in situations like this;


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1

Where someone tackles you and you have to fight them off of you from the bottom? A quite common situation if you're dealing with someone who is larger than you are, or if you attempt a throw and they accidentally fall on top of you. You know, something that can quite easily happen if you have a small woman trying to perform a Judo throw on a larger person.

In addition, offensively you don't need to do a flying scissors to place someone in guard. You can simply pull guard from a variety of positions. One such position is from a standing guillotine choke where you simply fall into guard in order to increase your control over their body to avoid knees or groin attacks.

Also why would you allow someone to slam you while you have them in guard? The entire point of closed guard is to control their posture, and you know when you're losing control of someone's posture rather quickly. Further, if someone starts to lift you up, there's multitudes of sweeps you can perform from that position, the waiter sweep and the double ankle sweep just name two.

This is fundamental stuff.

Double Leg takedowns aren't good options if your intent is to ground your opponent? Like seriously, what? I don't even know what to say in regards to that. You do understand that Judo banned the DLT because it was so effective at gaining ippons that it was eroding the more technical (difficult) throws right?

As for self-defense based BJJ, the Gracie line of BJJ is pretty much entirely SD based. Especially Relson's and Rorian's branches.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

Children  BJJ practitioners strangled adult male karatekas, so of course an elite female judoka beats an untrained male.


----------



## RavenDarkfellow (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, you mean in situations like this;
> 
> 
> __
> ...



Wow, I'm getting a strong sense that a lot of people on this board like to read whatever it is that triggers them, then stop reading the rest of the sentence and respond only to that.  Also, arguing for arguments' sake; blatant disrespect and ignorance of one's own ignorance... not what I would expect from martial artists.  I'm not into it.


----------



## lklawson (Sep 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Judo is far more rigid and really doesn't give people the opportunity to innovate and develop moves and techniques that could more benefit their personal style. In addition, the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents.


That kinda depends on the Dojo you're at.  If it is a very shiai-focused club with no cross-training, then, often that is true.  If it is a dojo that isn't strongly focused on competition then they will often delve into the old stuff that's been removed from competition such as single/double-leg takedowns, ankle-picks, leg-locks, etc.  If you are at a dojo that orients to the old Kosen Judo or the new Freestyle Judo, it's not so much true.  If you are at a Dojo that has a lot of BJJ cross-trainers (or just cross-trainers in general) then it's not so much true.

It really just depends on where you're at and what their focus is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

lklawson said:


> That kinda depends on the Dojo you're at.  If it is a very shiai-focused club with no cross-training, then, often that is true.  If it is a dojo that isn't strongly focused on competition then they will often delve into the old stuff that's been removed from competition such as single/double-leg takedowns, ankle-picks, leg-locks, etc.  If you are at a dojo that orients to the old Kosen Judo or the new Freestyle Judo, it's not so much true.  If you are at a Dojo that has a lot of BJJ cross-trainers (or just cross-trainers in general) then it's not so much true.
> 
> It really just depends on where you're at and what their focus is.
> 
> ...



I'll have to take your word for it. The last few Judo clubs I visited put some rather ridiculous restrictions on Newaza to the point where I never came back.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents.



You could not be more wrong. Judo is about weight displacement and technique more than strength. This is largely due to its clothing dependent techniques. You can use judo with strength but it isn't what it's meant for.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

If there's ever an undersized female grappler I would put my money on in  a clinch with a man, then it's a judoka. At least if both wear jackets....


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> You could not be more wrong. Judo is about weight displacement and technique more than strength. This is largely due to its clothing dependent techniques. You can use judo with strength but it isn't what it's meant for.



Yeah, but a 10-year old judoka is not going to toss a 6'5 grown man, no matter how skilled in Judo they are. That's the point.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but a 10-year old judoka is not going to toss a 6'5 grown man, no matter how skilled in Judo they are. That's the point.



An elite female judoka is not 10 years old. This was about grown-ups. Whatever odds you give the female judoka in a clinch, they are higher than for a BJJ black belt or wrestler assuming there's jackets involved.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Ronda Roussey has trained with lots of men and as she says, she needs to lock it in so to speak

Will she  ever be in a position to lock it in though? That's the big question.

Joe Rogan concluded that she wouldn't, if the man is any good at fighting and actually fights back.

I am a trained martial artist with no grappling credentials (but a very strong and good grappler naturally) and I do not believe that Ronda Roussey would do anything to me in an MMA fight.  I would fight her for no money. Ronda Roussey would not fight me however. I guarantee that. Not that any organization would sanction it.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> An elite female judoka is not 10 years old. This was about grown-ups.



If its all about weight distribution and skill, the age wouldn't matter right? We could have children tossing around adults if your example was true. This is the folly of buying into martial arts magic. Again, Judo requires a high level of technical skill to be effective, especially if you're dealing with a weight disadvantage like this Judoka would be.

As for Wrestling and BJJ, part of the reason the Double Leg Takedown was banned from Judo competition was that it was too easy to pull off, and that lone technique began to dominate the sport. In terms of BJJ, any competitor worth their salt will know that if there's a Judoka in the competition you Guard pull them because it negates their stand up game completely.

And yeah, I've been around plenty of Judoka and they all HATE Guard pulling because it's monstrously effective.




> Whatever odds you give the female judoka in a clinch, they are higher than for a BJJ black belt or wrestler assuming there's jackets involved.



So you're saying that if its warm outside, you live in a warmer climate, or have to fight someone indoors,  don't take Judo?


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If its all about weight distribution and skill, the age wouldn't matter right?


I didn't write "all". i wrote that it's more about that strength compared to wrestling. If you take a kid then we also have to factor in astronomical height and reach disadvantages. As for my strength claims, I know about these since a high level wrestlers did dabble in judo an said that the judokas weren't even close to the strength of wrestlers. Judokas are still strong, though.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I didn't write "all". i wrote that it's more about that strength compared to wrestling. If you take a kid then we also have to factor in astronomical height and reach disadvantages. As for my strength claims, I know about these since a high level wrestlers did dabble in judo an said that the judokas weren't even close to the strength of wrestlers. Judokas are still strong, though.



Yeah, but if you're arguing that the size and weight of the person you're throwing is a non-issue, you're living in a fantasy world. The fact of the matter is that the reason BJJ and Wrestling have an advantage over Judo is that those styles offer the grappler more openings to take someone down from multiple levels. Leg Locks in BJJ being a major example of this. Leg Locks are very effective against someone bigger and stronger than you, and they're pretty much absent in modern Judo.


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but if you're arguing that the size and weight of the person you're throwing is a non-issue, you're living in a fantasy world. The fact of the matter is that the reason BJJ and Wrestling have an advantage over Judo is that those styles offer the grappler more openings to take someone down from multiple levels. Leg Locks in BJJ being a major example of this. Leg Locks are very effective against someone bigger and stronger than you, and they're pretty much absent in modern Judo.



It pretty much is assuming the the man is clueless and the female isn't a midget . Blind grappling aggression will help the female in that she will redirect their force with her toss. I have used judo against clueless people using pretty much no brute strength. I at least didn't felt it.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It pretty much is assuming the the man is clueless and the female isn't a midget . Blind grappling aggression will help the female in that she will redirect their force with her toss. I have used judo against clueless people using pretty much no brute strength. I at least didn't felt it.



Maybe. There's also a chance she could be overwhelmed by the aggressive force. Hence why she needs a more holistic grappling system than what Judo provides.


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## Steve (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Ronda Roussey has trained with lots of men and as she says, she needs to lock it in so to speak
> 
> Will she  ever be in a position to lock it in though? That's the big question.
> 
> ...


My money is on rousey. Let me know when that’s going to happen.  😂


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Steve said:


> My money is on rousey. Let me know when that’s going to happen.  😂



That is quite politically correct of you. I don't have nightmares fighting women.. I do have nightmares about them though.


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## Steve (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> That is quite politically correct of you. I don't have nightmares fighting women.. I do have nightmares about them though.


I don’t think it’s PC as much as it’s just a smart bet.  Best of luck to you, though.


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