# We've Lost one...



## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

Unfortunately, RyuShiKan has resigned from this forum...

Some of you may cheer...
Others may not care...
Some, like me, regret that he is gone...

I never met him personally, but I appreciated most of the things he had to add to this forum...
Although he had an "in your face" way about him, he usually backed up his comments with facts (not hearsay or assumptions).

Heated debate is not a bad thing...and the moderators have let some strings run long and hot for awhile...

I have attended seminars presented by his teacher...

I do know one person who trained with him...
I know that the person who trained with him is an excellent martial artist...

It is my opinion that RyuShiKan IS the real deal...and we all lose out by his resignation...his passion for keeping some integrity in the arts is what led to his oftentimes "pitbull" posts...BUT, can anyone on this forum say that they learned NOTHING from him in the interactions that took place?

Answer that objectively...not with your emotions...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Jill666 (Mar 1, 2003)

I never had a problem with him. I feel it's a shame he left...

:yinyang: 


he took a great deal of energy & knowlege with him.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

Jill,

Read this...



> Fellow posters.
> 
> I have updated my profile for all to see. I believe that RyuShiKan now may recognize that he may have been in error to accuse me of being Zhao Dei Wei.
> 
> ...



Why do people have to rely on deception to make a point?
Who has greater credibility after this little scheme?
The one who left, or the one who gets to stay?

Note to all...ShuriTe/SenseiMike has declared himself a deceiver, publicly...

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Mar 1, 2003)

This may come as a suprise, but I will miss him.  Did he 'teach' me anything?  I can honestly answer...yes  

Although it is none of our business why he left, I wish him well and hope it is nothing serious.


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## Disco (Mar 1, 2003)

Why did Ryu decide to leave?


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## Jill666 (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Jill,
> 
> Read this...
> ...



I did, and replied, on the karate forum.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

Only a guess...but, he perceived the administrators were applying standards selectively...I don't know all of the particulars.
He thought it odd that his membership would be suspended for asking a question over and over to someone who "beat around the bush." But the person who "beat around the bush" was not suspended, even though he asked repeated questions, as well.

Now, the "bush beater" turns out to be a self admitted deceiver...

Who knows, maybe I'll be booted next for sharing the truth with you all...

I came here to learn and to share...I've had a good time and have learned a lot...especially from RyuShiKan (the histories he has shared were remarkable)...

I hope to continue to learn and to share...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Jill666 (Mar 1, 2003)

How did you come by the info that he has left? His profile says account suspended but doesn't reflect that he has resigned.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

Jill,

He Courtesy Copied an e-mail he sent to the administrators...

Since then, Old ShuriTe/SenseiMike/ShihanMike has responded by e-mail to RyuShiKan...I think it clearly shows that RyuShiKan was set up.

Nice thing about e-mail...once you receive it, it's yours to do as you please...Here is ShihanMike's note to RyuShiKan:



> RyuShiKan,
> 
> Chickenshit?? Is that the best you can do? I would have expected a bit more vituperation from you.
> 
> ...



:asian:
chufeng


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2003)

Folks, I'm out of the loop.  I've got 500-600 emails to wade thru, and a full PM box to boot.

I'll look into this, and things will be taken care of.

You have my word on it.

Bob


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## Jill666 (Mar 1, 2003)

And since all the parties involved are verbose- well, luck.

When people I feel are honest leave, nobody wins.

And since I believe I have read all the posts involved, that's all I'm going to say. That should speak for itself.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

To everyone...

I usually keep all e-mail I receive personal and private.
I don't want to discourage anyone from e-mailing me about things I post...however, this is an outrageous circumstance, and I think making it public is in the best interest of those on this board.

...and I don't think RyuShiKan will mind, since he is the one being railroaded. 

Who knows, maybe he'll come back...but if he doesn't, I can't blame him.

:asian:
chufeng


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## kenmpoka (Mar 1, 2003)

Hey bud,

Come back and lets get along and learn from one another. Even though at times it is hard to just stay put and say nothing.
I understand how you feel...

:asian:


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

ZhaDaiWei,

Got the following from RyuShiKan via e-mail...he asked that I pass it on to you in this forum...



> Dave,
> 
> As you may have read I have been "set up" on Martial Talk.
> Erroneously I thought it might have been you posing as "Shurite" who has now confessed to actually being MikeSensei from way back.
> ...




Maybe in the near future he will be able to respond personally.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Mar 1, 2003)

Well I will give credit where it is due, it takes a real man to apologize for a mistake.  Chufeng please convey my humble acceptance and my best to him.  

If he does not come back, perhaps he and I can still converse via email.  My best to him.


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## GaryM (Mar 1, 2003)

Baktoou doesn't want this, please come back.  We have much to learn. G


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## yilisifu (Mar 1, 2003)

It is my hope that Ry will return.  I always looked forward to his posts and his knowledge of Okinawan karate and it's history has been wonderful.

I have never met him personally, but I know his teacher quite well.  One of my students trained with Ryu while he was stationed in Japan and spoke very highly of him; his knowledge, his skill, and his love of martial arts.

   I was enthused to find him on this board. I truly hope that he will return very soon.  We need more like him; real martial artists who are truly dedicated to their arts and who will stand up for the truth, regardless of the cost.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

ShuriTe is down below, in the Karate forum, trying to say he did nothing wrong...

Quite frankly, this behavior makes me sick to my stomach...
Surely the reason RyuShiKan was "suspended" (which led to his resignation) is because people like ShuriTe/SenseiMike/ShihanMike, tattled about getting spanked on the board...

Truth hurts, doesn't it.
Reminds me of "day-care" tactics...very mature.

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Mar 1, 2003)

A few points:

*Discussion of our moderation policies is welcome. We do this for you and we value your feedback. Please, feel free to discuss this further. We have changed our policies based on members' concerns in the past.

**RyuShiKan*'s account is suspended. The suspension will be lifted. At that point it is his choice whether to return to MartialTalk or not. He would certainly be welcome to return.

*We came to suspect that the *Shuri-te* and *Sensei Mike* accounts belonged to the same person about a day before it was announced here by *Shuri-te*. This is a technical matter and we wanted Mr. Hubbard's opinion--he is the technical expert here, though other mods. have some knowledge of computers and networks. (I include all admins. when I use the term _mods_.) Note that Mr. Hubbard is on vacation this week.

*When there is a problem, the mods. discuss it in a forum that is invisible to non-moderators. The mods.' paying jobs are on different days and hours and it can easily take a few days for everyone to give an opinion and react to others' opinions. Remember, MartialTalk is a _money-losing_ operation staffed by volunteers--we all have full-time jobs. This can mean that action in some matters takes longer than people may expect. Please, give us time on issues!

*We prefer to warn whenever possible rather than take stronger action. Please bear in mind that in some cases warnings may have been sent, and e-mail or PM discussions may have taken place, that no one knows about but the mods. and the member warned. Don't assume that no action has been taken because none is visible to you!

*Having multiple accounts is considered a violation of our policies.

*MartialTalk is first and foremost a place for the _friendly_ discussion of the martial arts. Other boards may have a different focus; friendly discussion is our mission. There is already a rec.martial-arts and so we do not want to duplicate it.

*Our Rules and Policies and Terms and Conditions are posted. Please note the Basic Rule: *Treat others as you would wish to be treated. We ask that you be professional and polite to one other and respect our intention have a forum for the friendly discussion of the martial arts.*

*Human moderation, like any essentially judicial procedure, is fundamentally subjective and subject to error and inconsistency. We do our best but do not always achieve full success as we would hope to do. Please, bear with us. We're striving to make this board the best it can be--this often involves difficult decisions.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## yilisifu (Mar 1, 2003)

I would submit that when a member is "set up", as Ryu Shihkan was, some corrective action should be taken by the moderators.  Ryu Shihkan was railroaded by one who intended to deceive from the outset, acording to his own admission.  Surely this places the onus squarely on who did what and to whom.

Ryu Shihkan made numerous posts on the board which were very educational and required some real effort and time on his part.  I would think that such members would be considered very valuable.

If trickery and deception is allowed to pass for socially acceptable behavior on this board, then we are all in peril.  

It is my feeling that one of our finest members AND our moderators have been deceived.  Sadly, the one who was punished was the victim.

This is not acceptable.  I hope that the moderators here will make the appropriate adjustments to this situation.

And I hope that Ryu Shihkan returns soon.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

Further, I'll risk getting tossed on my ear...
Why?
Because right is right and wrong is wrong...
Relativism has no place in a system where one can easily snuff a life...if you make that choice, it best be right.

Likewise, what one teaches his students reflects on his teacher.

I am proud of what I learned from my teacher...
I am not afraid to say "********" when I see it...
The emperor is not wearing new clothes, he is wearing NO clothes.

This self proclaimed deceiver NOW expects us to listen to what he has to say because he did it for a good cause (he shut up the voice of reality)...

Throw me off, if I've overstepped my welcome, but I am simply pointing out a HUGE disservice to the members of this board.

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Mar 1, 2003)

On a personal note, *RyuShiKan* has provided a great deal of content that I have found interesting and useful. I certainly know more about Okinawan history and language, for starters. I would like to see him return--he has a wealth of experience and information that benefits the board.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

Arnisador,

What you are saying, by your actions, is that, even though someone admitted deceiving evryone on the board for his own amusement...he can still post...

Whereas, RyuShiKan is suspended for pointing out some discrepencies in someone's post...

I might just leave this place if that is HOW you guys do business.

No canned responses are necessary...

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *What you are saying, by your actions, is that, even though someone admitted deceiving evryone on the board for his own amusement...he can still post...*



What I said was, please give us time so that all five mods. can discuss this matter and come to a consensus. Not all of the mods. have had a chance to learn of the most recent developments. We try to operate as a team and want to have the opportunity to discuss the matter.

I am asking you--please, have patience.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2003)

chufeng,
  I am reviewing a number of posts, while trying to rapidly work thru a huge backlog of emails and PMs, in order to resolve this issue ASAP.

 As arnisador has indicated, we discuss these issues, so as to try and reach a fair concencous.  We are only human.

Despite any past or current issues any members of our moderation team may have with any particular member, it is our goal to be fair.  We have a policy that if we have a conflict of interests, that the conflicting mod is not allowed to vote.  

I am working on this now.  I had no intentions on returning to MartialTalk until Monday.

Please understand that we are taking this seriously, but we need time to find the truth.

Justice will be served, and it will be fair and unbiased.

I promise.

Bob Hubbard
Owner, MartialTalk.com


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## Shinzu (Mar 1, 2003)

it's a shame when anyone leaves this forum.  a shame that some people have to play games like these and not be upfront and honest.  he will be missed.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 1, 2003)

Thanks to official military requirements, I have been away from MT for the past two days...

Miss a day, miss a lot, huh?

RyuShiKan is a very, very, very good friend of mine.  I mean that with the seriousness that folks who know me (and who know I am _very_ particular who I hang around with, much less who I train in MA with or under) know I am capable of.

When RyuShiKan gets blindsided by some sh*tbag that has an axe to grind (almost always because RyuShiKan has pointed out the flaws in the other person's background, training or alleged legitimacy - and I have yet to see RyuShiKan be proven wholly wrong), I get a tad pissed off.

I have dealt with Arnisador a lot on this board, and due to that alone will I restrict any comments about this issue until he, Bob and the others have a chance to deal with this turd.

I hope this gets fixed yesterday...  :angry:


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 1, 2003)

Gentlemen,

It is a shame to see someone leave who can offer value and knowledge.


What is a real shame is that I have received a warning or two, and I have immediately addressed the issue. If you are polite, and deal with the issue and are not snotty with the MODs I have the belief that all would be well.

As pointed out by Kaith and Arnisador, they are addressing the issue. They require time. Give it to them. Do not make the mistake of attacking the MODs and risk being suspended yourself. Continue to give your viewpoints as long as it is new or additional data. Save the feelings to the private messages to the MODs so they can do their un-paid job the best they can.


Now I do not know the whole story, and yes I am jumping in the middle asking for everyone to step back and breath. Allow the system to work.


I have faith in few things, one of them is that the crew on this board due care and try to do their best. It may take Time.

Best wishes to all, and train well :asian:


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## sweeper (Mar 1, 2003)

well in the case ryushikan does not return I would like to say I never had a problem with him, he always took the time to answer any of my questions about his posts wich is nice for a newbie to MA like myself because I don't always understand what is being talked about


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## fissure (Mar 2, 2003)

I just finished reading through the thread that got this whole mess started.I haven't been here for a while - the constant repetition of  "same old, same old" had gotten to me. It just seems like everyone gets offended no matter the intent of quires or questions. Or points trying to be made (poorly in some cases - my own included!) only to be thrown out with the bath water, in favor of the popular "I'll take a word or phrase you used, and bash you over the head with it" theory.
I've done my fair share of bickering about nothing in several threads, and have no doubt that most people get into these pointless banters without intending to.
 I have responded to a lot of threads, "just because", but have given real thought to only a select few that seemed to me to be "important".
The last one was with white belt in the TKD forum, on the subject of forms/poomse application.I enjoyed it very much, unfortunately we seemed to be the only ones willing to discus application - and one member even got annoyed at the idea of such talk,
This leeds me back to the subject of this thread. As I said, I read the entire thread in which RyuShiKan and Sensei Mike/Shuri Te had their little spat.The forms application thing made me remember the "Sensei Mike" of old- his lengthy posts on the subject got under RyuShiKan's skin as I recall. I even posted about the length of his posts (funny-as I consider my current under taking!!), I remember the same irritation that somehow comes across even in written words between the two. What I can't understand is the reason RyuShiKan is suspended. He was arguing with someone who annoyed him. So what? Sure he took a somewhat "pissy" tone with Mike (or whatever), so did Mike in regard to Ryu. So do many posters with many other posters, even after a Mod. gives that little "keep it nice" advise.
Bottom line is, for all our talk of Martial Arts making better people - we fall into the same dumb ruts as any other people. We bicker and put down and belittle each other at almost every opportunity.
And just so you all don't think I'm trying to place myself on some kind of moral high ground - I noticed this today: On 9/02 Sensei Mike was a 3rd Dan, here we are on 3/03 and Shuri Te is now a 5th Dan. And I thought that some TKD dojang promoted too fast! (relax - I'm aTKD guy myself!)


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## D.Cobb (Mar 2, 2003)

I belong to a Ryukyu Kempo school, that stems from George Dillmans teaching. In fact Mr. Dillman was my instructors original pressure point teacher. 
We all know how RyuShiKan feels about Mr. Dillman, and yet he has shown me complete respect at all times. I, like everyone else, sometimes find his tone a tad abrupt, but failing that he is always informative unless it contradicts his idea of right and wrong. 
In this instance I feel that he has been severley done by and I believe that this may also be down to the bad blood between RyuShiKan and one particular moderator. 
However having said that, let me say this, I have only ever seen fairness from Arnisador and Mr. Hubbard.
This debarcle needs to be dealt with asap.

--Dave

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2003)

ok folks....I've been hammering at this issue since I was made aware of it.  As I said earlier, I had a lot of stuff to wade thru, and a few very long threads with alot of posts that were pure ********.

Its 3:30AM here, I should have been asleep 2 hours ago. We spent about 3 hours in a 3 way going thru a number of particulars that surround this.  Some people are not going to like these decisions.  We've been as fair as we can, all things considered and carefully weighed out.  The final decision took over an hour to come to.

First things first...

*Duplicate Accounts. *- These are against our rules.  The software attempts to stop this, but it can be fooled.  We are well aware that there are duplicate accounts in use.  As we can, we eliminate then, espeically when they are only used to cause trouble. Shuri-te, Shuri te and Sensei Mike are all the same individual.  Sensei Mike admits to creating the Shuri-te account to needle RyuShiKan.  This violates another rule.

*RyuShiKan* - I'm going to be blunt here. He is a pain in the ***.  He is the 'Sam Kinison' of the forums...he gets in your face and screams 'Say It!'.  Some people can not, or will not take it.  He has driven several individuals away or underground with his 'in your face', 'put up or shut up' approach.  This has gotten him a number of enemies.  I am not 1 of those. I have butted heads with him in the past. I have grown to have a respect for him in the last year.  He has been suspended from this forum in the past, and received several warnings for his actions.  That said, I looked at -this- matter solely on what happened in this instance, and then weighed it against his past contributions. He has a very developed sence of what is 'the right thing' and will pursue it in as direct and blunt a manner as he can, damn the rest.

*Shuri-te* - around 20 posts, most looking to be pure BS that seems to be geared towards pushing RyuShiKan's known buttons.  Other than this, I dont know much.  The posts rambled so much that I got lost on a few occations.  On repeated rereads, I determined that the first person to push a button was in fact Shuri-te.  I did not reexamine 'Sensei Mikes'.


Distilled down to its base points, I see this as a case of someone (SM) signs up and makes a few posts that sent up 'warning flags' to R, who then pursued clarification and answers.  SM was issued a warning and then disappeared.  A while later R gets into issues with another member, and using the name of this members art, SM logs in as ST with the sole purpose of sowing confusion and setting up R to get himself in trouble.  A series of huge posts with no real answers sends R over the limits, and an administrator seeing what appears to be a flame war between a new member and a past problematic member, suspends the 'hoter' of the 2.

emails are exchanged which only increases the tension between the admin and R.  

(Note folks, if we suspend you, and you feel the need to discuss it, 3 suggestions : 1 - contact a different mod/admin, 2- calm cool and collected works better than hot, pissed and sarcastic. 3-wait an hour or 2.)

At this point, evidence starts to turn up (provided by R and our server logs) that there was more to this.

At this point...
We have examined the evidence, the past records of those involved, weighed it all out, debated it until all 3 admins were very pissed off, and I have been forced to make some hard decisions.  This is a compromise to try to be as fair as possible.  Based on a number of issues, we would not be remiss to issue bans here...but we did not.

Shuri-te/Shuri te/Sensei Mike - is suspended from MartialTalk until May 1st.

RyuShiKan - is suspended from MartialTalk until March 21st.

It is my hope that both parties will return and utilize this forum in the spirit in which it is provided.  It is no place for vendetas.  You have the right to ask someone to provide additional information.  They have the right to refuse to do so.  They say that actions speak louder than words...I believe in this case, the actions were words, which have painted a very clear picture.


==========
It is now 4am...I need sleep badly.
Good night.
:asian:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 2, 2003)

All the interesting things happen when I leave my computer :shrug:


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2003)

Admin Note:
Please be aware that we will review this decision within 24 hours of -this- post to double check our findings and ensure that what we said, was wahat we meant to say, as well as to 'double check' certain things.  Or in english - 4am, when you've had no sleep for 48 hours is not the time to try to do serious thinking.

When I fully wake up, I'll start rereading things.

rmh


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## arnisador (Mar 2, 2003)

We spent a great deal of time on this matter. We analyzed logs, compared IPs, looked at join dates/post dates/last dates on, read through old threads, looked into our history of warnings and suspensions--it took time. We also had to wait for one person who was working to become available. Thanks to all those who were willing to give us the time to investigate and discuss this issue.

This was a difficult decision. The fact that the full truth came out piecemeal, and that it involved technical issues that required Mr. Hubbard who was on vacation, made it even harder. We considered the data above, e-mails/PMs that had passed between the admins. and the individuals concerned, what the individuals contribute to MartialTalk (in particular, *RyuShiKan* has contributed much useful and valued content to the site, with over 1000 posts), and other issues. We tried very hard to reach what we felt was a fair decision. Clearly, not everyone will be happy with it.

Multiple accounts and baiting other members is a serious violation. However, as Mr. Hubbard indicated, we felt and feel that there is some blame to be shared on both sides, and some history here that needs to be considered. MartialTalk is a place for the _friendly_ discussion of the martial arts. We ask that everyone maintain a polite and professional manner on the forum. If someone you are conversing with isn't doing so, the appropriate response is to contact a moderator and cease responding to the offending individual. We very much want to be _not_ rec.martial-arts.

This is the toughest case we've had to handle and the Admin. team has certainly learned some lessons with it. MartialTalk is less than two years old so please be forgiving as we strive to develop procedures to allow us to fairly and expeditiously handle situations such as this. We apologize for our failings in this matter but ask that you allow us to settle the matter as best we can and move forward. We'll be better prepared for a situation like this in the future, but we must learn as we go.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Matt Stone (Mar 2, 2003)

Okay, you guys made a decision.  I admit _I'm_ not happy about RyuShiKan's suspension being upheld, but at least the other guy got worse, so there is some justice there...

Here's a question though:  There are some folks in the MA world (myself included) who are rather dedicated to exposing frauds for what they are.  Sure, nobody appointed me Chief Grand Inquisitor for Martial Purity, but the job was/is open for applicants...  There are some folks that come online, here and elsewhere, and with a large amount of bogus titles and claims to lineages begin to befuddle the folks who are either too early on their path in MA or too secluded in their education to know that these folks are frauds.

Somebody has to step up and show the world what they are and who they are not.

I have had some arguments with folks here and on other boards.  I usually try to keep it nice, since if nothing else I come across as the good guy in the debate (a little court room trick I learned on the job).  When the other guy (the one I am trying to expose as a fraud) gets pissed, then folks add that to their perception of the guy based on what has come out through the discussion.  In the end, if I was right or wrong, we end up with a much more detailed understanding of the situation.

My recent interaction with *akja* was an example of this - a person with a seemingly questionable background, over time, was shown to be a rather well-trained (if oddly recognized) martial artist.  I personally have no major beef with him for what he does anymore, and hope to run across him in "real life" one day.

But some folks refuse to answer questions or provide evidence...  Ever.  Then they start to get nasty in return.  Even in MA, though I am sure we all tell our students and children to walk away in the face of potential conflict, there comes a time when you have to stand your ground and push back.

I really like MT.  I have all but abandoned posting on other boards because _this place_ is so good.  But there will come a time in MT's maturing process where things like E-budo's Bad Budo forum (or at least posts that would belong there) will need to be addressed.  Guidance on how to proceed is requested.  I have yet to be suspended or banned, and I would just as soon find out how you want the game to be played before hand than learn on the fly.

Thanks for trying to keep the record straight.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2003)

Please forgive me, I've very exhausted at the moment, so if this is muddy, let me know and Ill clarify.

It is not the expossure, but 'how' the exposure happens that is the issue.  Youre comment:


> I have had some arguments with folks here and on other boards. I usually try to keep it nice, since if nothing else I come across as the good guy in the debate (a little court room trick I learned on the job). When the other guy (the one I am trying to expose as a fraud) gets pissed, then folks add that to their perception of the guy based on what has come out through the discussion. In the end, if I was right or wrong, we end up with a much more detailed understanding of the situation.



is a very good one.  You keep it polite and professional.  Let the other guy get bent outta joint and be the one who gets nailed, not you.  You can not let it get personal.

We cant rightly boot a person for refusing to answer questions.  We can and will boot those who get personal, insulting, antagonistic, etc.



> But some folks refuse to answer questions or provide evidence... Ever. Then they start to get nasty in return. Even in MA, though I am sure we all tell our students and children to walk away in the face of potential conflict, there comes a time when you have to stand your ground and push back.



Please see the previous msg.  We cant 'require' that anyone provide anything, a name, a cert, an answer, etc.  All we can do is require that they conform to our rules of conduct.  When it comes to the 'push back' stage, what we are forced to do as mods depends on the form of the conflict.

The arguement will show 1 side asking questions, the other side being evasive or worse.  When it gets beyond a certain point, it is time to take it offboard.  Threads that degenerate into flames can not be tollerated or let to flare into a fire.  We are all burned by those.

We've let some touchy topics go on due to their content.  A thread on a child molester who is still teaching for example. 

Regarding a 'bad budo' forum, I believe we have 1, but it is under utilized.  Perhaps some suggestions from our more experienced members on a better usage of it might help us in the future? I am open to suggestions on how to improve things.  This particular issue has forced us to improve our inter-mod communications to reach speedier and fairer resolutions.

I will have another post on this particular issue later today.

In summary to your question though, 'What do we do about the frauds?" (sumarized)
Expose them in a polite, professional manner, and keep your cool.  Then work -with- us to help you in pursuit of the truth.  We don't want the frauds here any more than you do, as our goal is to make this place a complete resource for the martial arts.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 2, 2003)

Thanks for the clarification.  As a paralegal working in criminal prosecution, I just want to know what the rules are so I can play within them and use them the way they need to be used.

I will endeavor to help the "Horror Stories and Budo gone Bad" forum to get used more often and not degenerate into a mud slinging forum of rec.martialarts fame.

Thanks again.


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## GouRonin (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I will endeavor to help the "Horror Stories and Budo gone Bad" forum to get used more often and not degenerate into a mud slinging forum of rec.martialarts fame.*



Hey! I *like* Rec.Martial-Arts.
 

Such is life folks. Sometimes I personally feel I have taken it in the @ss from the moderators but then again I have probably given them about as much back. (More than likely more.) Sometimes I feel like I have been left out to dry because of who I am and other times I look back and go, _"D@mn, I was right there but did I ever steamroll some people who didn't deserve it in the process."_ Then my stupid pride gets in the way and makes it hard to apologize. Sometimes I think, _"Aw well, they'll see I'm right and understand."_ but perhaps I should apologize anyway.

Sometimes you even need a higher up to grab you by the collar and sit yer @ss down and say, _"Shaddup!"_ when you're hot under the collar. I'll be the first to admit that when Kirk and I were not getting along I needed someone to yank my leash to bring me back to reality because I was not acting rationally. Did I like it when it happened? Hell no. Did I need it? Hell yes.

You reap what you sow and while that means you benefit from what you do, you also deal with the consequences. Ying/Yang, good/bad, it's all a part of life. Personally I think that threatening to leave and not come back because there are things I don't like is grade threeish. When I get frustrated I take a leave of absence and train my @ss off. As long and as hard as I can until I feel I can come back level headed.

So I have a suggestion. (Please feel free to tell me to shove it up my wazoo too if you want) How about we all take a step back today and go train our butts off for a bit? Then we can all come back and re-look at this. Unless I am talking out of my **** again...


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## Matt Stone (Mar 2, 2003)

Shove it up your wazoo.



Seriously, though, you are probably right.  We should all spend more time training than we do typing.  That having been said, some folks really need a stick upside the head sometimes...  :angry:

Whatever.  The Mods are taking care of it now.  Personally, I am waiting to see what happens after 1 May.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Shove it up your wazoo.*



I have a habit of going off half cocked and it's gotten me into trouble. I'm working on it. I still think I'm right most of the time but I'm working on finding another way to say it.

I'm not the only one who needs to work on it. Just trying to offer up my experience.

Cheers.:cheers:


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> That having been said, some folks really need a stick upside the head sometimes...  :angry:
> 
> *




Hey, I resemble that remark!



Nice post  from both you and Gou


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## arnisador (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Such is life folks. Sometimes I personally feel I have taken it in the @ss from the moderators but then again I have probably given them about as much back. (More than likely more.) Sometimes I feel like I have been left out to dry because of who I am and other times I look back and go, "D@mn, I was right there but did I ever steamroll some people who didn't deserve it in the process." Then my stupid pride gets in the way and makes it hard to apologize. Sometimes I think, "Aw well, they'll see I'm right and understand." but perhaps I should apologize anyway.*



This post contains an admirable amount of introspection and honesty. I suspect--I believe--it applies to all of us, but I certainly find it hard to attain this level of self-inspection and self-honesty as often as I'd like.

Great post.


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## Kirk (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I have a habit of going off half cocked and it's gotten me into trouble. I'm working on it. I still think I'm right most of the time but I'm working on finding another way to say it.*



Ditto.


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## arnisador (Mar 2, 2003)

Let me expand slightly on Mr. Hubbard's response to Mr. Stone. Feel free to ask questions of someone you suspect is a fraud. We'll send a warning if we feel it's warranted. A warning is not considered a negative thing in this instance--it's an indication that in our opinion the tone has drifted too far from what we want for MartialTalk. So, we take the point of view that we'll help identify those boundaries so that no issue arises.

We don't want frauds here, but we also don't want a negative pall cast over discussions. Identifying frauds is something E-Budo is known for; we want to be known for friendly discussion. It's a design compromise.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> ok folks....I've been hammering at this issue since I was made aware of it.  As I said earlier, I had a lot of stuff to wade thru, and a few very long threads with alot of posts that were pure ********.
> 
> Its 3:30AM here, I should have been asleep 2 hours ago. We spent about 3 hours in a 3 way going thru a number of particulars that surround this.  Some people are not going to like these decisions.  We've been as fair as we can, all things considered and carefully weighed out.  The final decision took over an hour to come to.
> ...




I don't understand what the confusion is. It seems pretty clear to me. You have all the facts there.  One guy was wrong. RSK has not done anything wrong. He is at worst, quilty of lack of polished manners. BIG FREAKING DEAL !!!!   I would pick him over other garbage posters any day.  THis is coming from someone he at first called a troll. So, it isn't like I am his bossom buddy.  But the guy is an valuable asset to this forum. His posts are must read. 

You have already have the facts there. I see no reason to suspend RSK at all. That makes no sense. Can't you people tell RIGHT from WRONG?  It seems pretty obvious which one should be banned and which one should be commended.  

I would think that with his tireless effort in getting the facts straight from all the boastfull posters making shameless claim, you people would be wise enough to recognize what a tremenduous contribution RSK is making to this forum.  One would think that RSK should be made a moderator or administrator. Instead, you warned him and suspended him?  Good lord!  The insanity!!!  Are you mad?    RSK does not make garbage claim.  His posts are all substantiated by facts.  

A forum is only as good as the people who post there. The way RSK is handled, is not what will make MT a better forum.

Do you want a mushy warmy forum, where every one pretends to be nice to everyone while 99% of the posts are bogus BS that no one gives a rat ***?  Or  would people would rather want a QUALITY forum where the information is scrutinized and questioned?


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## Mike Clarke (Mar 2, 2003)

Or is it just this forum?

I haven't logged on for a little while and I can't belive what has happened in the short ime I was away.
If this idiot Mike [I use to be a grown up but I lost my brain} is allowed to continue on this forum then Bob you have to ask your self why any one else would bother being here?

I've never met RSK but I have learn tonnes from him and I wanted to learn more. But some muppit with an ego problem wants to have a go at him and M.T. steps up to back 'him' up.

I'm wondering if I should bother anymore?

If your not going to get rid of this shurite idiot I'll just make do with e-mailing Robert myself. If I leave the forum it won't be much of a loss, but letting people like Robert go is really shooting yourselves in the foot!  

Mike Clarke
{one seriously P==d off Karate-ka}


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 2, 2003)

It takes 2 for a conflict.  I keep seeing peopel going ape over Ryu being suspended.  First, I know for fact Sensie Mike will have his one acct terminated. Second, I remeber when Sensei Mike first joined, he was attacked immediately by Ryu and that is where this all started.  They have both done things against the rules of MT therefore they have both been suspended.  I was part of the Moderation here for a little while and I know how hard of a job these guys do trying to keep everyone happy.  I realized very quickly it is impossible  to keep everyone happy.  

I applaud the moderation team for handling this matter in the manner they have.  No one has been permanently removed from MT and therefore that allows the parties involved to try and play nicely in the future.  We all make mistakes in life, it is whether we learn form them or not that makes the difference.  Ryu may learn to speak with a little more tact from this incident.  Sensei Mike may learn it is better to be upfront about things.

The last thing needed is for us as members to be going off about how unfair this is or that was.  It is in the past, lets just let it stay there.  We do not need to keep pushing this issue.  It took people to argue, and both have been punished.  Ryu was given a suspension of a few weeks for being a participant.  Sensei Mike was given a couple months because he was the instigator.  With some luck maybe everyone can finally let this issue go.


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## sweeper (Mar 2, 2003)

yeah I don't think the mods took SM's side, they banned him too..  and I don't think they banned RSK for anything he did against SM but rather his genneral behavior with a third party.. RSK was accusing someone else of being a fraud because some of their history looked like SM's, the mods thought he went overboard on him and I thought that was why he was banned..  not because of anything he did to SM but because he let that carryover to a third party who had no idea what was going on.

Maybe I'm wrong..  Maybe a mod could post to clear that up?


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## Angus (Mar 2, 2003)

Jonathan Napalm, I think you have a SERIOUS underestimation of what it takes to run a large forum like this and to keep it as well moderated and civil as it is. This forum is FANTASTIC; probably the best on the internet. I was a moderator for almost 2 years of another site, talkbass.com, which is a forum very similiar to this in it's civility and quality (albeit in a musical sense, though for every rec.martial-arts there's an alt.bass.guitar forum) but it has like 35,000 members. Problems like this happen pretty consistantly, and sometimes both parties need to take some blame.

In this case especially, a lot of people who aren't doing any sort of moderation disagree with the decision made, and are making note of it quite strongly publically. Quite honestly, I'd simply say to you guys: tough. Nobody really understands the full bredth of the energy it requires to read every single post in every thread of the forums you moderate every single day, before you can read the threads that interest you elsewhere. It requires a LOT of effort, believe me. If they make decisions on something, which in this specific case are fairly small with no bannings, just let it be and (I think) don't take up the issue with the moderator publically. It's enough work for them to not only keep this site as fantastic as it is on a day to day basis, let alone to have to explain every single decision they make publically so as not to cause an uprising. J Napalm's specific post sounded very much like the child yelling at his mother for buying him only 1 toy and not 2; he got something he wanted but still complained anyway because he didn't get everything he wanted. Be appreciative of what these folks do for you; they've given you an outstandingly civil forum with intelligent discussions and even polite debates so there is no need to be rude back at them at the slightest of disagreements. 

While I do very much enjoy Ryushikan's posts and his highly extensive knowledge of anything Okinawa (among many other things), look at it from the moderators perspective: the lineage witchhunts, however useful they are in exposing frauds, makes a lot of work for the moderators and ESPECIALLY Bob Hubbard. Most of it may be behind the scenes, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. From their perspective, it's simply punishing both sides of the one going argument; Ryushikan vs. 'frauds'. Even though he was definitely set up, it doesn't change the fact of the matter that he would've acted the same way had it NOT been a set up. I do, however, not wish Ryushikan to leave permenantely, as he is a wealth of information that has yet to nearly be tapped, however it's a difficult situation because of all the trouble to whole exposé has caused. I would love to see him come back when the moderators wish his suspension to be up. Ryushikan is a very intelligent man, and I hope he understands the situation from the perspective of the people running the site as well; nobody wants him to leave permenantly. 

I think the whole situation from the Ryushikan sympathizers side has been made a far larger deal than it need be; he was penalized for repeated action, but so was the other guy who was penalized further and likely won't come back. Think of it this way; given his action, the latter likely won't really be accepted back because of his strange course of action seeking retribution, but Ryushikan will be back with open arms. Some time off is alright, he can always spend it doing some extra training!  Most large forums that are similiar to this one wouldn't give such a light punishment, but because we're more of a closeknit family he receives a (truly) light punishment comparatively. Why? Rules are rules regardless, and they must be upheld regardless of the person in question. Were Ryushikan's intentions poor? No, not in the least. But it doesn't change the fact of the matter that rules were broken or bended, regardless of the person with which they were in relation to (shuri-te or whatever). He's not being that severely chastized in the least, simply that he had to pay for the rules being upheld, which, quite honestly, I'd much rather see because if they're upheld stronger people will follow them stronger which makes for a stronger forum with better discussions. No worries, in three weeks he'll be back and things will be 100% normal. Don't get me wrong, I agree with Ryushikan and he's one of my favorite members to read, but let's not make this anymore difficult for the moderators than necessary.

Simply from the perspective of someone who's been a moderator longer than this site has been around, I think everyone owes all of the moderators and especially Bob Hubbard a very LARGE thanks. What the do for the site is practically beyond the comprehension of most of the people here and we ALL take it for granted far too often. Much thanks to all of you; your work on this site, one of the best martial arts forums on the net, is truly underappreciated. It's very difficult to create a forum as civil and well organized as this one is. Thank you guys very much!

I don't mean to sound authoritarian or argumentative in the least with all this; I've simply had some experience in the matter and may see it a bit differently than some of you. Regardless of what happens, I would hate to see Ryushikan go and I think it would be an unnecessary loss, but the moderators have to upheld the rules as possible to maintain evenness throughout our community. That's what we're striving to be, after all: a community. In the end, the decisions are the moderators and the moderators alone, and their decision will reflect their interpretation of that. 

Give it time to sort it self out. 

Chris

PS: Mods, you'll receive a PM from me within a day or two. I'll let the smoke clear a little bit beforehand though.


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## arnisador (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *Maybe I'm wrong..  Maybe a mod could post to clear that up? *



We're reluctant to say much more than we have already in order to protect the privacy of all involved. However, a variety of factors have been considered, including what was posted, relevant history, and e-mails/PMs between the mods. and various parties. We spent a lot of time doing research on this before reaching a decision.

To *Angus*: I think in a year I'll be able to write a post like yours! It's a lot of work, but overall it's been very rewarding. My favorite part is when I find that members have gotten together in real life to train because of discussions on MartialTalk. That's very uplifting! But the time commitment involved is indeed considerable--including a great deal of time spent in discussion with the mods. over administrative matters (which helps explain my high post count)--and as you say, I must read through much of relatively low interest to me before I can settle into what I personally care about. But I feel that Mr. Hubbard has created a wonderful resource here and am pleased to be able to help with the project!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Matt Stone (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This post contains an admirable amount of introspection and honesty.*



Yeah...  makes you wonder if Gou really wrote it...


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 3, 2003)

Enough of the *** kissing, angus.  (sorry of being blunt)  The owner of the forum knows full well that it is the participants that make the forum work.  Without quality posters, no forum is going to mean anything.  There are lots of people like angus, who are profoundly appreciative of forum operators, as if they are running a soup kitchen for us homeless folks.  On the contrary, the forum owners would roll over and fold, if not for quality posters. NO need to take my words for it. Just go check out other MA forums. Few people post there, because there are no HEAVY WEIGHT posters there and hence NOT many posts worth reading. So why bother to go there?

Anyone can start a forum. To attract and keep qualified posters, is another story.  Pissing off the quality posters, and the forum will go the same route as other also run MA forum where only 3-4 people visit each day.

Punishing people such as RSK, is shooting yourself in the foot.  He does not need to give a hoot to all this BS.  He is giving a lot more than he is taking from this forum. He does not need the insult for all his contribution.

There are only a few people who are HEAVY WEIGHT here. They are the reason I am still here. Most of the other posts, I seldom bother to click on them. But RSK's and a few others' are must read.  

That does not mean people such as RSK should be given a licence to kill. But when he is doing a public service for the benefits of everyone here, and YET, he got punished for "participating" in the argument?  How insulting !!  If I were him, my response would be 'Scr#$% that! You and all the fraudsters deserve each other!"

Since I am posting unrestrained, I would expect a warning soon, huh?


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## arnisador (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *The owner of the forum knows full well that it is the participants that make the forum work.  Without quality posters, no forum is going to mean anything. *



I believe that I can speak on behalf of Mr. Hubbard here: Yes, it's our members who provide the content for MartialTalk, and it's the content and discussions that draw people in. We are very cognizant of that fact.

You may however underestimate both the technical difficulty involved in maintaining the forum software and its server, and the difficulties inherent in maintaining an atmosphere conducive to these discussions. Once again, we ask for your patience as we do the best we can to provide a place for the content to appear--and we also ask that you ascribe any errors or failings on our part to something other than ill will.



> *Since I am posting unrestrained, I would expect a warning soon, huh? *



This is a difficult issue that we are discussing. We recognize that. Members are concerned about this for all the right reasons. We don't intend to prohibit the discussion of our policies. We have changed policies in the past based on member input.

This particular matter however has been resolved to the best of our ability and we do not expect to change our minds on it. We're discussing amongst ourselves how we can do better next time. Constructive criticism in this regard is most welcome.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 3, 2003)

The technical issues are a dime a dozen and are nothing new.  What is seldom mentioned is that in trying to upheld the rules/regulations, the forum ended up insulting the intelligence of the posters. The admin may be thinking of the "fairness" issue, but, may ended up NOT being fair to the posters who are contributing time and effort as a public service.

I have witness this happened in other forums. They would punish both parties in any argument, irrespective of who is right or wrong. The ultimate effect is MASS EXODUS of the heavy weights, as they don't need to put up with BS, when they are giving more than they are taking.

Every time I read some people praising how forums are offering us poor lost souls a home and how we should be ever so profoundly grateful, I have to laugh at the naivty of such notion.  I have seen forums rolled over and collapsed when the heavy weights got sick of the BS and just left en mass.

My view here does not mean I perceive any illwill on the admin's part. Rather I am offering a perspective from a different angle, which some people may not be willing to express.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *The technical issues are a dime a dozen and are nothing new.  What is seldom mentioned is that in trying to upheld the rules/regulations, the forum ended up insulting the intelligence of the posters. The admin may be thinking of the "fairness" issue, but, may ended up NOT being fair to the posters who are contributing time and effort as a public service.
> 
> I have witness this happened in other forums. They would punish both parties in any argument, irrespective of who is right or wrong. The ultimate effect is MASS EXODUS of the heavy weights, as they don't need to put up with BS, when they are giving more than they are taking.
> ...



If you don't like the way they run things here start your own forum and shut the hell up.

When I get the warning or whatever for this post I will take it because I know I am in violation of the rules, and won't ***** about it because I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions.


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## JDenz (Mar 3, 2003)

I don't know what every one is all fired up about RSK.  He is a hot head like some of the rest of us.  He has been warned many times I am sure.   Maybe he was right this time maybe not, it doesn't even matter it is the way that he went about it.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *If you don't like the way they run things here start your own forum and shut the hell up.
> 
> When I get the warning or whatever for this post I will take it because I know I am in violation of the rules, and won't ***** about it because I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions. *



Oh yes, this is EXACTLY the attitude that caused mass exodus.  Keep this up!  

It is absolutely SO TYPICAL!  And guess what? At that forum, the mods were all so arrogant about it, AND the heavy weigths DID EXACTLY that! They left and started their own forum, taking 500-600 of the heavy weight members with them overnight.  And the old forum collapsed.

I suppose, the next thing I hear would be, "YEAH, you go and do that!"


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## Aegis (Mar 3, 2003)

Just out of interest, which forum was that? And where did they all go?


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## James Kovacich (Mar 3, 2003)

I would like to make a quick comment. I was not going to say anything but my name was briefly mentioned and I want to add to that.

I have to give a lot of credit to "few" guys that I felt at one time attacked me. They did something that a lot of people don't do. When they hit me, they stayed there for me to hit them back. 

I felt overwhelmed because there were also those who hit and run and so you don't know who is who(thats a good excuse anyway ) and you feel ovewhelmed a bit.

But to the "few",  they know who they are, I grew to respect them for what they represented and how they went about it. If you push me, I'll push you too. They were the same as me in that respect and RYUSHIKAN was one of them, and I really do hope he comes back!


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## Jill666 (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> * I suppose, the next thing I hear would be, "YEAH, you go and do that!"  *



Be my guest.

I personally would have preferred to see RSK's suspension lifted. That said, do I want to be a mod and put my time where my mouth is? Hell no. So there it is. 

As for what happens on May 1, I couldn't care less. I suspect by May 1 I'll have forgotten all about this (I do have a life). I do hope RSK returns- I also have been thrilled to read about the rich history Of Okinawa and the arts that engendered my own. 

My opinion, not that you asked.


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## Jill666 (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Shove it up your wazoo.  *



I must note that I was truly sorry Yiliquan beat me to it!  Well, I'm off to train my a$$ off.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 3, 2003)

I am posting it again at his request.

Enough is Enough...

And I'm not referring to the TV show...

This is a done deal. The Mod Gods have spoken from on high. Things are as they are. Mike got suspended until May, RSK (I like that - saves typing time!) is out until March 21. 'Nuff said.

Knowing RSK, I suspect he is getting a few giggles out of the mess this has turned into, but I know that this would not be what he had intended. While he seems hotheaded from the way he posts, I guarantee he is far from such a characterization. He is a Midwesterner just like I am, and when I was in Japan with him we used to joke about Midwestern bluntness... We shoot from the hip, call 'em like we see 'em, and sometimes that pisses folks off... I work with attorneys, so I have learned to "talk nice," but when it comes right down to it, I am much more at home with the right at ya method.

This all having been said, I think we need to return to thinking like the MAists we all profess to be.

If Mike learns a lesson from this, we will all be able to see it in the way he posts in the future, if he posts at all. If he doesn't learn a lesson, that will be obvious as well and I am sure that the Mod Gods will raise their mighty fists in anger and smite him from the Heavens.

If RSK returns, then things will be as they will be. I doubt very highly that he will play patty-cake with bogus posters, and I for one would never want him to. I like best what Arnisador said:



> *Identifying frauds is something E-Budo is known for; we want to be known for friendly discussion. It's a design compromise.*



E-budo has a very active "Bad Budo" forum that has identified a large number of vastly overrated and highly publicized frauds (e.g. Oom Yung Doe/Chung Moo Doe; Temple Kung Fu; Ashida Kim, et. al.; etc.). Martial Talk is a very different environment within which to interact, and maybe that is why I like it better than E-budo (although I still think very highly of E-budo, the "heavy weight" posters that are there, as well as the very good friends in Tokyo that I made while a member of E-budo). The only reason I would feel that the MT Bad Budo forum needs to become more active is that there are 1474 members here, and they may or may not be aware of what dangers lurk in the shadows of the MA world. 

Bottom line - we need to put this baby to bed and move on. What is done is done. Give your opponent time, and he will make a mistake. Give him enough rope, and he will tie the knot on the noose himself.  Let's wait and see what May brings besides flowers...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Yeah...  makes you wonder if Gou really wrote it...    *



What are you talking about? I have to to dictate my posts to my wife and then she translates all of them.


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## arnisador (Mar 3, 2003)

Kaith Rustaz did indeed delete *Yiliquan1*'s post, but I would like to make clear that it was an accident. The mod. capabilities are 'always on' on these accounts, which has occasionally led to problems of this sort. Kaith was deleting his own post after reconsidering what he wanted to communicate but he accidentally deleted an adjacent post as well. Those of you who administer computer systems now that you shouldn't always work as 'root' and should only turn it on when needed. Unfortunately, this software doesn't let us switch. We could use one account to surf and then log out and log back in as someone else, the admin./mod., do the work, then log out and log back in as a non-mod., but that's slow and awkward.

We apologize for this error!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## GouRonin (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *Rather I am offering a perspective from a different angle, which some people may not be willing to express. *



Yes. Your teen-style angst has us all riveted to this board. This is even better than 90210. Go Johnny Napalm! You are my hero. I read that article in Tiger Beat about you but I have to ask... what is the relationship between you and Tori Spelling? Inquiring minds want to know.
:iws:


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## Matt Stone (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Kaith Rustaz did indeed delete Yiliquan1's post, but I would like to make clear that it was an accident. The mod. capabilities are 'always on' on these accounts, which has occasionally led to problems of this sort. Kaith was deleting his own post after reconsidering what he wanted to communicate but he accidentally deleted an adjacent post as well. Those of you who administer computer systems now that you shouldn't always work as 'root' and should only turn it on when needed. Unfortunately, this software doesn't let us switch. We could use one account to surf and then log out and log back in as someone else, the admin./mod., do the work, then log out and log back in as a non-mod., but that's slow and awkward.
> 
> We apologize for this error!
> ...



Sorry if I implied anything or failed to make myself clear about how my post was killed...  Bob emailed me and asked me to re-post, and was kind enough to provide the text for me to do just that...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## JDenz (Mar 3, 2003)

cool


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## sweeper (Mar 3, 2003)

JN it sounds to me like you are saying the roof is more important than the foundation because without a roof who would want to live in the house..

In my opinion they are both important and both needed.

The reason I came onto this forum (the first and onlty MA forum I am a member of) is because of two things. 1: people who know what they are talking about and 2:the accessability of posts without having to sift through flames and other detractions from the information content of a site.  There are alot of good threds on rec.martialart but I never look there because of how many freakin flames there are..  I mean something interesting starts up and within 15 posts it turns into a "my style is better than yours" or some moron comes in and says "everything everyone said is wrong". I don't want to sift through all that stuff, it's not worth it in my opinion. I think if this board were to a:loose the "heavy weight" posters or b: become alot less civil, I would leave..  doesn't matter wich one, and as a result I personaly think apreciation should be shown for both mods and those with a good deal of knowledge willing to share it.


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## Ty K. Doe (Mar 4, 2003)

I don't usually watch soaps, but this one's good.


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## Cruentus (Mar 4, 2003)

I just wanted to say that the Mod's did the right thing here. They did what they had to do.

RyuShiKan has a lot of good things to say. But lets face the facts, people: he is also posts like a hot head when he hammers others. There is a way to tactfully hammer someone w/o getting banned. I myself have done my share of hammering, which has only yeilded me a few warnings, and only when I got out of hand. There are right ways and wrong ways to go about anything. We all could learn from this, as I am sure Ryu will try to.

Shuri-te, or whatever, is a coward. I am glad to see him suspended for a long time.

Will RyuShiKan return? He will. I can say this with confidence because unlike Shuri-te, he is not a coward. I highly doubt that he would let something like this get under his skin so badly that he would be too distraught to return. I'm sure he'll take his "punishment" like a man, and he'll be back. Even if it is only to tell everyone to screw off and that he's not going to post here ever again. I personally hope that he returns, and sticks around for a long time.

Will Shuri-te return? Probably under a different name if he does because as far as I am concerned (and unless he changes his ways) he is a coward. 

My Opinions.

 
PAUL


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Yes. Your teen-style angst has us all riveted to this board. This is even better than 90210. Go Johnny Napalm! You are my hero. I read that article in Tiger Beat about you but I have to ask... what is the relationship between you and Tori Spelling? Inquiring minds want to know.
> :iws: *



as if you should talk....... Take a good look into the mirror, my friend.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *as if you should talk....... Take a good look into the mirror, my friend. *



Oh come on.....people are being stupid enough as it is.....Dont do cusses that only Rich would come up with!  


Seriously though, is there any point in leaving cuz RSK is gone for a while. If he doesnt come back that is his own choice and its not exactly like the Admins banished him for life. Everyone is not helping by harrassing the Admins because of it all. And Napalm......Yes this is just a forum, and a very well run one at that. Stop complaining......I'm bored of it. :shrug:


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## JDenz (Mar 4, 2003)

defintly give the mods a break.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Oh come on.....people are being stupid enough as it is.....Dont do cusses that only Rich would come up with!
> 
> 
> Seriously though, is there any point in leaving cuz RSK is gone for a while. If he doesnt come back that is his own choice and its not exactly like the Admins banished him for life. Everyone is not helping by harrassing the Admins because of it all. And Napalm......Yes this is just a forum, and a very well run one at that. Stop complaining......I'm bored of it. :shrug: *




WOW MOB, that was your best insult to date. You compared me to Johnny Napalm.  

I think you have me on the ropes, I got to go back and rethink this game plan. MOB has pulled out everything.


Seriously, as JDenz said, give the Mods a break, and let us just wait and see what happens when the suspention is lifted.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 4, 2003)

I was just giving Guo an elbow to the rib.  



Back to the issue.  If the forum is to be a "friendly discussion", that is fine. No one is arguing for a free-for-all, NHB flame forum.  But it would be "watering down" the quality of the forum, if "getting to the truth" is sacrificed in the name of maintaining "friendly discussion".  I would rather see the truth be upheld than the "friendly discussion" be paramount. (Who would bother to be with a bunch of touchy feely, softie purfume princes whose feeling and ego are too easily bruised?)Of course, this is the admin's forum, and the admin can set whatever policy as they see fit. OTOH, the posters are free to leave.  What I was saying was, there was at least one forum where the admin took the posters for granted and kept telling them to leave if they didn't like it there. HECK, the posters did EXACTLY just that, all 500-600 of the heavy weights.  

I have NOT said this forum is badly run. To the contrary, this is one of the better fun forums. The quality of the mods is above average.  

One policy I tend to disagree with is the punishment of both parties in an argument when there is a clear case of right and wrong.  That reflects 1, the inability or unwillingness of the mods or admin to bother to figure out what is right vs wrong, 2, insulting to the intelligence of the posters who post here.

JMO.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> JN it sounds to me like you are saying the roof is more important than the foundation because without a roof who would want to live in the house..
> 
> In my opinion they are both important and both needed.
> ...



Where did I say this should be a free for all, flame forum?


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## Master of Blades (Mar 4, 2003)

Lol....I said something clever


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## arnisador (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *One policy I tend to disagree with is the punishment of both parties in an argument*



This is not our policy. I didn't like this approach in junior high school and I don't like it now. We simply don't do that. I understand that it may appear that way to you in this instance, but I assure you that this is _not_ what we do.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## GouRonin (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *as if you should talk....... Take a good look into the mirror, my friend.
> I was just giving Guo an elbow to the rib.*



As I read your post I knew you were. Mostly because we're just not friends.
:shrug:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *As I read your post I knew you were. Mostly because we're just not friends.
> :shrug: *



HAHA talk about a comeback :rofl:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 4, 2003)

Can I be your friend Gou?


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 4, 2003)

A couple of points I'd like to make...

Firstly, 
I owe Robert Rousselot an apology.
Without knowing many details, I gave my word to him that I would handle things a certain way.  I was unable to do so, and had to break my word.  I take that fact -very- seriously, and am truely sorry for doing so.  I'm sorry.

Secondly....
I want to apologize to Matt Stone.  
I put up a post of my own, reread his, decided he made better points than me then, in a 'newbie' error, nuked his post, while meaning to do my own.  In the future, I'm gonna be damn certain to read before hitting 'ok'.  I do truely appreciate his reposting his message.  Thank you.

3rd:
I resent the suggestion that it is SOP here to punish both sides of an argument.  We ruled based on the information available to us, then when more information became apparent, we modified our initial conclusion accordingly.  Neither side is innocent.  There is a reason why 1 got 3 weeks, and the other 2 months. 

4th:
On the topic of 'Bans'... 
It is very hard to truely ban someone.  If 2 or more members share an ISP (LIke AOL for example) I risk blocking decent folks due to one jerk.  I can block off all the free email services, but how many of our members use Hotmail, Yahoo, etc?  Its not easy in the least to be 100% accurate. 

5th:
On people leaving, etc-
I would hope that they wont.  Some will.  It happens.  We will go on.  

6th:
We are constantly striving to improve this forum, both in its features, and how we run it.  If you have suggestions, or ideas, I encourage you to share them with us.  I believe that our staff does one of the best jobs of all the forums out there on maintaining a good place for civil discussion and the free exchange of ideas.  Can we do better?  Of course.  Theres always room for improvement.  Running this place is like training in the arts...the longer you do it, the more you learn and grow.  We are only a year and a half old...we are still learning.  Share your thoughts on how we can meet our mission statement of "Friendly Discussion".

7th:
Heavy Weight posters - We have a good dozen.  I would love to see a few more dozen arrive or develop.  To those members who have shared litteral encyclopeadias of knowledge, thank you.  


Thank you.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 4, 2003)

Here Here Bob.


Thank you for your input.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *A couple of points I'd like to make...
> 
> Firstly,
> ...



Firstly, no big deal on deleting my post.  I can't count how many times I have posted what I thought was a Pulitzer or Nobel candidate post only to end up dumping the entire novella with a click of the wrong damn button...  No worries.  Hope I didn't make anyone think I was ticked by your mistake.  :asian:

Secondly, your apology to Robert means more to me than your apology to me.  Making a public apology rather than simply resorting to a private email means a lot to me.  It tells the world what is going on out in the sun instead of back in the shadows.  

Thanks.

As far as the equitability with which the situation was handled...  I am waiting to see what happens after 1 May.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## JDenz (Mar 4, 2003)

Ya I don't like RSK very much and have alot of arguments with him.  That being said he is very in the know about what he knows we just agree to disagree, and him and Primo have both been real fired up at each other before so I hope he takes it on the chin and comes back.  Some of the joy of martial talk is eing irratated by RSK, and iratating him with my bad spelling.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *we just agree to disagree,  *



That sums it up pretty good. But thats what its about, dicussion. To a certain extent, there could be someone that is right or wrong, but it depends on who is doing the reading.


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## Ty K. Doe (Mar 5, 2003)

> On people leaving, etc-
> I would hope that they wont. Some will. It happens. We will go on.



I for one will be staying regardless (unless my employer blocks this site).  I think the admins. did the right thing.  I've been waiting for one of them to say something to RSK for a while.  I do hope he comes back, but with a better attitude.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *That sums it up pretty good. But thats what its about, dicussion. To a certain extent, there could be someone that is right or wrong, but it depends on who is doing the reading. *



Well, I disagree.  That statement is far too abstract.  In our touchy-feely, everyone-is-special world, sometimes you are just wrong.  Deal with it.  

In martial arts, there *is* right and wrong.  Period.  It doesn't really depend on who is reading or watching or fighting.  If a thing is done incorrectly, the same result will occur.  This is proper technique.  There cannot be two (or more) "best" ways - it is logically impossible.

Now, the _application_ of "best" technique is something else entirely.  That is open to a more abstract definition of "right," but while there are multiple ways in which a "best" technique may be delivered, there are simply some things which are still wrong no matter what your belief or interpretation is...

If people would spend less time defending their bruised egos (often when you are given a correction, myself included, it is hard to get past the bruise to see the lesson being taught) and more time trying to understand what is being offered to them, they would find much more value in what is said.

Just my 2 yen.  Spend it how you like.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Well, I disagree.  That statement is far too abstract.  In our touchy-feely, everyone-is-special world, sometimes you are just wrong.  Deal with it.
> 
> In martial arts, there is right and wrong.  Period.  It doesn't really depend on who is reading or watching or fighting.  If a thing is done incorrectly, the same result will occur.  This is proper technique.  There cannot be two (or more) "best" ways - it is logically impossible.
> ...



And that would be where someone (you) could be right. 

I think that people see things "differantly" and the way they see things "differantly" better explains my logic. In "our" minds "we" are right.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This is not our policy. I didn't like this approach in junior high school and I don't like it now. We simply don't do that. I understand that it may appear that way to you in this instance, but I assure you that this is not what we do.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



Good. In that case, I would have no problem.

That is the biggest problem I have with moderating. It reflects sheer incompetency.


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## Cruentus (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Well, I disagree.  That statement is far too abstract.  In our touchy-feely, everyone-is-special world, sometimes you are just wrong.  Deal with it.  *



A-men, brother!


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## Matt Stone (Mar 5, 2003)

An example...

I know a lot of MAists that seem to like to bounce up and down when they spar, like imitiating a spastic, meth-junkie rabbit will somehow make them harder to hit.

If you try to strike while in the air, or better yet get _hit_ while in the air (something our school specifically trains for, having had a lot of dealings with some low quality TKD schools once upon a time), you will see *immediately* that failing to maintain a stable stance/posture is *wrong*.  

If, while blocking, you fail to provide an adequate perimeter of defense between you and the bad guy, and instead direct his/her attack into yourself, then your block was *wrong*.

How you go about getting into (or out of) these situations is the grey area, but the bottom line is the above mistakes are just that - mistakes.  And by definition, they are wrong...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Nightingale (Mar 5, 2003)

Seems fair to me...


Yes, SM was bating RSK. That is obvious, and he got suspended for it.

RSK got suspended for taking the bait.  He could've just let it go.


just my perspective.

-N-


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## Marginal (Mar 5, 2003)

Hm. Someone specifically looking to push some else's buttons makes it hard to ignore. It's more like setting up a few claymores than just baiting a trap. 

Totally unethical.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> *Hm. Someone specifically looking to push some else's buttons makes it hard to ignore. It's more like setting up a few claymores than just baiting a trap.
> 
> Totally unethical. *



If you look into the history of these 2 gentlemen's posts you will see it goes both ways.


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## Marginal (Mar 5, 2003)

I did. One was himself, one was a pathetic stalker.


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## sweeper (Mar 6, 2003)

hmm..  JN I think I mis understod your posts. I thought you were trying to say admin is not important compared to heavy weight posters, I was just trying to show why I think they are equaly important.


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## chufeng (Mar 6, 2003)

I started this thread...
My intent was to point out an apparent injustice (at the time Shurite was still "worming" his way around the threads).

None of us (excluding the mods) have all of the details.

Since my original post, many have expressed concern that we might lose a significant contributor...
Others have posted that it's about time RSK got his (whatever).
...some have taken this opportunity to bash the mods...

Again, I say, none of us have all of the details...

An ex-mod has been kind enough to show his *** with lipstick and everything...thanks Rob...

Kaith has apologized publicly for promising something he simply wasn't able to deliver because of technicalities and the requirement for a group concensus...(have any of you been watching the news? the U.N. is in the same quandry)...

So, I suggest we just let this matter rest and see what happens.
RSK will come back, or he won't...he's an adult; he can choose...
I personally would like to see him return, but, I have no influence on his decision.
The worm will come back...he may even be here among us now under a brand new name...eventually we'll find him and expose him, again...

So, folks...patience....let's get on with the rest of the threads.

:asian:
chufeng


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## JDenz (Mar 6, 2003)

Good Post


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *
> 
> An ex-mod has been kind enough to show his *** with lipstick and everything...thanks Rob...
> ...



I am working on getting the words kiss my @ss removed form the avatar.  I want it to reflect the same message as the signature at the end of my posts, "Show me yours and I'll show you mine"

A few people on this forum know what is actually meant by the signature.  If the avatar or signature offends anyone please PM me and I'll change it/them.


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## GouRonin (Mar 7, 2003)

Why change your avatar because one guy doesn't like it? Jeez, I hate political correctness.

Shame on you for bowing to that pressure and shame on Chufeng for trying to play that card.


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## chufeng (Mar 7, 2003)

Actually, I'm not at all offended...I kind of like it...my comment was tongue in cheek...

 
chufeng


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## GouRonin (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Actually, I'm not at all offended...I kind of like it...my comment was tongue in cheek... chufeng *



I figured as much. I was shooting for the whole _"moral high ground beating political correctness"_ thingy.


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## JDenz (Mar 7, 2003)

all you'll can kiss my as except gou, I don't want to make you leave again lol.


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## GouRonin (Mar 7, 2003)

I'm trying very hard to be a more productive member of this board.


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## D.Cobb (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *That sums it up pretty good. But thats what its about, dicussion. To a certain extent, there could be someone that is right or wrong, but it depends on who is doing the reading. *



There will always be 3 versions.....
Your version,
My version,
and the truth.

It has always been that way, and always will be.

--Dave

:asian:


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## D.Cobb (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Actually, I'm not at all offended...I kind of like it...my comment was tongue in cheek...
> 
> 
> chufeng *




Kiss my ***....
Tongue in cheek, 
Oh God you guys crack me up!!

--Dave
(Butt wait, there's more...)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## JDenz (Mar 7, 2003)

lol you are a little behind lol


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## Nightingale (Mar 7, 2003)

very punny.


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## Shinzu (Mar 8, 2003)

actually i laughed when i saw that rob.  pretty funny if you ask me.  we all need a good laugh now and then to clear the smoke...hee hee


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## Master of Blades (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I'm trying very hard to be a more productive member of this board.
> 
> *



Keep trying.....you'll reach your goal one day


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## GouRonin (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Keep trying.....you'll reach your goal one day  *



Let me guess you like to go to the zoo and poke the animals with sticks too...


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## Master of Blades (Mar 8, 2003)

Nope......I dont like Monkeys.......But I do have a Shinobi in a cage that I poke with a stick and it dances


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## Shinzu (Mar 8, 2003)

totally off the subject:  GouRonin, that is an awesome sig.  Run - DMC rocks.... God Rest Jam Master Jay.

now back to our regularly scheduled program:asian:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *
> 
> now back to our regularly scheduled program:asian: *



We have a regularly scheduled program


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *We have a regularly scheduled program  *




Yes, do you not get the info channel? Shhesh Kids today to lazy to even use the online version .  


:rofl:


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## ace (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Unfortunately, RyuShiKan has resigned from this forum...
> 
> Some of you may cheer...
> ...



Na Na Na Na
Hey Hey Good By


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## JDenz (Mar 9, 2003)

lol I knew that was coming


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## Master of Blades (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Na Na Na Na
> Hey Hey Good By *


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## JDenz (Mar 9, 2003)

lol you havent been on martial talk till you see ACE and RSK go at it.


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## ace (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *lol I knew that was coming *




it was my first post Back
   

LoL:toilclaw:


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## JDenz (Mar 9, 2003)

Lol with the right smile face to lol.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *lol you havent been on martial talk till you see ACE and RSK go at it. *



Ahhhh........I see, I enjoyed seeing RSK go at it with other guys, have yet to see him and Ace lol :rofl:


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## ace (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Ahhhh........I see, I enjoyed seeing RSK go at it with other guys, have yet to see him and Ace lol :rofl: *



Yeah We Had some Flames 
 We had some Wars 
I'm not sad to see him go/// 
 :revenge: 
:revenge:
 :revenge:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 9, 2003)

Okay Ace.......PLEASE ANSWER THIS! What is up with how you post? Just trying to be differant or you not a man of long sentances? Please its been bugging me for ages! :wah:


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## ace (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Okay Ace.......PLEASE ANSWER THIS! What is up with how you post? Just trying to be differant or you not a man of long sentances? Please its been bugging me for ages! :wah: *


Short & Sweet

Im not into Long Post I try to get my point a cross
in a few Words  &  Some  Smiley Pic's
:yinyang:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 9, 2003)

LOL.......okay, guess thats okay


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## ace (Mar 9, 2003)

:ultracool


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## D.Cobb (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Short & Sweet
> 
> Im not into Long Post I try to get my point a cross
> ...



That's mainly because he cant spell. I often wonder if ace has as much trouble talking as he does writing.

--Dave


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## ace (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *That's mainly because he cant spell. I often wonder if ace has as much trouble talking as he does writing.
> 
> --Dave *


Funny Guy:2xbird: 
:rpo: :bomb: :EG: :bomb:


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## JDenz (Mar 9, 2003)

No Primo speaks very well though he does turn up the volume a bit when talking about fighting or grappling muc to Tims annoyance, but it is cool to trian with a guy so into it.


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## arnisador (Mar 9, 2003)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## arnisador (Mar 9, 2003)

We've decided to lock this thread. While discussion of our moderation policies is always welcome, recent posts are against the spirit of MartialTalk (taunting a member who cannot currently reply).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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