# Addressing Hendrik's statement 'why perform SLT section 1 so slow'?



## JustSomePerson (May 2, 2016)

I have been following a number of debates about the web on the issue of SLT and the speed at which it is performed and what that slower pace might engender in an individual.

As some of you know, I am sympathetic to many of the things Hendrik has shown and presented and the argument that bows should be taught from the outset to beginners rather than as something that many, particularly from the the Ip Chun and Ip Ching lineages, hold back for the most part despite the idea of the bows being in 'that little notebook'.

When performing meditative exercises and attending to each of the bows in, say, a lying down position, for many imagining moving the position of the joint and the vertices of the joints meeting to constitute the joint point, is to attend to a given bow/joint. Further by moving them slowly or 'intending' to move them and refining the point at which one does not move them despite the intent, once can fine tune attention to the bows and each of the muscles involved in their manipulation and loosen them.

When some of us perform SLT section 1 slowly we reach this fine line of small movements to the point that we can signal our intent and feel the movement about to begin but then stop the movement. In terms of static structure activating the signal to move will set in structures but also fine tunes control and looseness over each of the bows. In Siukee's book and his use of the term bow (compound bow to pardon the pun) as a unit of joints and tendons like an archer's bow, the ready state and that fine line between moving and not moving is what develops the 'flesh state' (tendons, muscles and connective tissue) for that elastic, springy and 'bow' like structure.

Practising SLT section 1 slowly is effective for beginners (and the advanced) in developing attention to each of the bows and enables great gains to be made in the meditative exercises Hendrik suggests, even the lying down one. And it is also effective in developing what Siukee sets out too.

For Hendrik I offer the following, spend a few months trying it out and see for yourself that what I am suggesting is perhaps valid, even by your own terms of reference.


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## wckf92 (May 2, 2016)

I've heard both sides of this over the years...
A) says doing it slowly (approx. 1 hr) is vital to developing good skill
B) says it is a waste of time and a tactic used by some instructors/organizations to grab more money (having you stand in class for an hour)

No comment on HS and his 'opinions'...


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## JustSomePerson (May 2, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> I've heard both sides of this over the years...
> A) says doing it slowly (approx. 1 hr) is vital to developing good skill
> B) says it is a waste of time and a tactic used by some instructors/organizations to grab more money (having you stand in class for an hour)
> 
> No comment on HS and his 'opinions'...



Well, I see merit in practising it slowly, fast or at any other pace in between depending on what I want to train and develop. I guess my contentious point is that practising it slowly engenders certain attributes and is beneficial to what Hendrik proposes and the very basic exercises he suggests.

I would add this, yes 'mind power' or what CST described is a fuzzy concept but researchers have measured and followed signals about the body when a given person intends to move a part of their body. Although such researchers have not looked at a wing chun person and the issuing of that signal to move but the pulling back of the movement and that fine line between moving and not moving and imperceptible movement, I am sure that they will do.


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## Vajramusti (May 2, 2016)

Heard enough of hendrik's views.


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## JustSomePerson (May 2, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> Heard enough of hendrik's views.


 
Yes, well, sorry. I was hoping he would consider other's views and acknowledge there is good stuff in other lineages rather than his habit of, unintentionally or otherwise, talking down to others and causing arguments and ill feeling.


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## Dirty Dog (May 2, 2016)

Hendrik was banned from this site, so there is really no point in making posts to which you hope he will reply.


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## JustSomePerson (May 2, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Hendrik was banned from this site, so there is really no point in making posts to which you hope he will reply.


 
I did not know that but I am sure he reads them. I've noted his youtube videos often refer to forums such as these. However, I shall note your comment for future reference.


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## Marnetmar (May 2, 2016)

Doing the form super slow has its advantages but it should be done on one's own time, not taking up half of one's class time, especially in the average class which is like maybe an hour and a half long at most.


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## guy b. (May 3, 2016)

JustSomePerson said:


> As some of you know, I am sympathetic to many of the things Hendrik has shown



I thought you were Hendrik to be honest. So who are you if not him?


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## mograph (May 3, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> Doing the form super slow has its advantages but it should be done on one's own time, not taking up half of one's class time, especially in the average class which is like maybe an hour and a half long at most.


Yep. IMO, class time is best used for instruction & interaction ... and just enough drill time so the students can get an idea of what they need to do (focus on) during the drill. Then they take the drill home, practice, then come back with questions so they can get feedback, adjust, refine, move forward. Of course, not all students would thrive in that environment, probably because they wouldn't drill on their own.


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## Xue Sheng (May 3, 2016)

After years of Taijiquan all I have to say is there is more to moving slow and doing any form slowly than what has been presented as it applies to "bows"


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## JustSomePerson (May 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> I thought you were Hendrik to be honest. So who are you if not him?



I am just some person and one who thought his use of English was at a level high enough to clearly distinguish himself as not being Hendrik. My ego is some what bruised as obviously my ability to use English is not as good as I thought it was. I hope the position I set out in my opening post also helps show that I am clearly not Hendrik.


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## JustSomePerson (May 3, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> After years of Taijiquan all I have to say is there is more to moving slow and doing any form slowly than what has been presented as it applies to "bows"



I agree.


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## Anuka (May 3, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Hendrik was banned from this site, so there is really no point in making posts to which you hope he will reply.


  How does one obtain a banishment? Does receiving one delete ones forum posts?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 3, 2016)

It's OK to do your form slow but it's wrong to do your form so slow that require more than 1 inhale (or 1 exhale) for each move of your form. The speed of your form depends on your breathing speed and not the other way around.


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## guy b. (May 3, 2016)

JustSomePerson said:


> I am clearly not Hendrik.



What's your involvement with Hendrik?


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## geezer (May 3, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's OK to do your form slow but it's wrong to do your form so slow that require more than 1 inhale (or 1 exhale) for each move of your form. The speed of your form depends on your breathing speed and not the other way around.



In my WT training of SNT we did not link breathing to movement in a direct or fixed way when performing the "saam pai fut" movements slowly. In fact there was a deliberate effort to de-link movement and breathing sequences so that the breathing would continue inn the same deep, relaxed manner whether you were extending or retracting your arm.

Has anyone else trained this way?


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## JustSomePerson (May 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What's your involvement with Hendrik?



You are witnessing it in this thread; one of discussion and dialogue. We can either stick to the content and points people raise or we can play politics and the defamation ego raising game where discerning social ties and 'involvements' wins out over point/content based discussion.



geezer said:


> In my WT training of SNT we did not link breathing to movement in a direct or fixed way when performing the "saam pai fut" movements slowly. In fact there was a deliberate effort to de-link movement and breathing sequences so that the breathing would continue inn the same deep, relaxed manner whether you were extending or retracting your arm.
> 
> Has anyone else trained this way?



Yes. That said I found linking the movement and breath more of an aid for natural breathing when under pressure and the use of breath more intentionally i.e. not natural if your definition of natural is 'not controlled' or 'without intent'.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 3, 2016)

geezer said:


> In my WT training of SNT we did not link breathing to movement in a direct or fixed way when performing the "saam pai fut" movements slowly. In fact there was a deliberate effort to de-link movement and breathing sequences so that the breathing would continue inn the same deep, relaxed manner whether you were extending or retracting your arm.
> 
> Has anyone else trained this way?


The concerns are whether you

- separate beginner stage, intermediate stage, and advance stage.
- use slow speed training in the beginner stage, increase your speed when you get more advance, or you remain slow speed training for the rest of your life?
- train as you fight.
- ...


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## JustSomePerson (May 3, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The concerns are whether you
> 
> - separate beginner stage, intermediate stage, and advance stage.
> - use slow speed training in the beginner stage, increase your speed when you get more advance, or you remain slow speed training for the rest of your life?
> ...



Are all 'speeds' not valid regardless of level? I guess I mean is it not a good thing to alternate depending on what you are developing? Even folks who reach a certain 'level' need to keep what is obtained in check or train something specific?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 3, 2016)

JustSomePerson said:


> Are all 'speeds' not valid regardless of level? I guess I mean is it not a good thing to alternate depending on what you are developing? Even folks who reach a certain 'level' need to keep what is obtained in check or train something specific?


You train the same technique differently at different point of your life. This is why the grade school text book is different from the high school text book, and also different from the college text books.


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## guy b. (May 3, 2016)

JustSomePerson said:


> one of discussion and dialogue.



The reason for asking is that most people including me have no clue what Hendrik is talking about. For this reason it would be good to know if you are a training partner of HS for example (who might understand) or just some other random person (who most likely will not, assuming there is anything to understand). Getting into a long discussion about CSL wing chun with someone who is speculating about it is probably a waste of time


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## geezer (May 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The concerns are whether you
> 
> - separate beginner stage, intermediate stage, and advance stage.
> - use slow speed training in the beginner stage, increase your speed when you get more advance, or you remain slow speed training for the rest of your life?
> ...



The saam pai fut section of Siu Nim Tau is typically performed _more slowly_ as you become more advanced in your training. The movements are not performed as in fighting. The movements in the other forms may be performed as in fighting, but to see the movements as direct fighting applications would be a mistake IMO. They teach positioning, structure, correct movement, kinetic linkages and power generation. They are not shadow boxing.


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