# The 5 Elements



## TieXiongJi (Jan 19, 2017)

Metal means the strength contained in the bones and the muscles, the mind being firm like iron or stone, being able to cut gold and steel.
Wood has the meaning of the bending but rooted posture of a tree.
Water means force like the waves of the vast sea, lively like a dragon or a snake, when used, it is able to pervade everything.
Fire means strength being like gunpowder, fists being like bullets shot out, having the strength to burn the opponent’s body by the first touch.
Earth means exerting strength heavy, deep, solid, and perfectly round, the qi being strong, having the force of oneness with heaven and earth.

I am reading an interview with Wang Xiang Zhai. His teacher described the 5 elements as above.

He added another comment.

"This is the syncretism of the five elements. It has nothing to do with one technique overcoming another technique as the modern people claim. If one first sees with the eyes, then thinks of it again in the mind, and then launches the counter-attack towards the enemy, it is very seldom that one will not get beaten up."

I never thought of the elements are just parts of one person or one fight. I love how the 5 elements concept is simply describing elements of a fighter in a fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 19, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> It has nothing to do with one technique overcoming another technique as the modern people claim.


The 5 elements theory is "fighting strategy".

1. Fire - jump around and throw fast punches, an offensive fighter (boxing).
2. Metal - use hard block to cut like knife (Hong Ga).
3. Wood - like tree branches with long range kick and long range punch (TKD).
4. Earth - Move in inch by inch with solid defense (wrestling).
5. Water - respond to opponent's attack, a defensive fighter (Taiji).

1 against 2 - If you move around and throw fast punches, it will be difficult for your opponent to give you a hard block.
2 against 3 - If you like to throw long range punch and long range kick, a hard block will be the best counter.
3 against 4 - If your opponent move in inch by inch, you can use long range kick and punch to keep him away.
4 against 5 - If your opponent is a defensive fighter and won't attack first, you move in inch by inch will force him to make a move.
5 against 1 - If your opponent move around and attack aggressive, you can respond to his attack by spin your body, step back, ... and counter.

For example, One time I spared against a TKD guys. He liked to throw side kick (wood strategy). Every time he side kicked at me, I blocked his kicking leg with my back palm, I then dropped my leading elbow on his ankle (metal strategy). After I had hurt his leg that he could not kick me any more, I jump in, attack, and end that fight. In that entire fight, I only threw 1 punch.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

Pretty much every description I have seen of the five elements has been different from the previous.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

By the way, I am only coming up with four elements:

Metal
Earth
Wind
Firewater

What is the fifth?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> By the way, I am only coming up with four elements:
> 
> Metal
> Earth
> ...



 In CMA....Wood


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2017)

Xingyiquan 5 elements (Xingyiquan is the Root of Dachengquan/Yiquan)


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> In CMA....Wood


Sorry Xue, you missed the joke.  Firewater: whiskey.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sorry Xue, you missed the joke.  Firewater: whiskey.



Yes, yes I did....


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> By the way, I am only coming up with four elements:
> 
> Metal
> Earth
> ...


In the Bruce Willis/Milla Jovovich movie, it's Love.

The "Firewater" element is my personal favorite. I have some of that most evenings.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In the Bruce Willis/Milla Jovovich movie, it's Love.
> 
> The "Firewater" element is my personal favorite. I have some of that most evenings.


Chief Firewater was a great teacher of mine. He showed me the truth after I partook in the peace pipe ritual.

Let's see if anyone gets that reference...


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In the Bruce Willis/Milla Jovovich movie, it's Love.
> 
> The "Firewater" element is my personal favorite. I have some of that most evenings.


Chief Fire


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## DanT (Jan 21, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> Metal means the strength contained in the bones and the muscles, the mind being firm like iron or stone, being able to cut gold and steel.
> Wood has the meaning of the bending but rooted posture of a tree.
> Water means force like the waves of the vast sea, lively like a dragon or a snake, when used, it is able to pervade everything.
> Fire means strength being like gunpowder, fists being like bullets shot out, having the strength to burn the opponent’s body by the first touch.
> ...


The current explanation of the 5 elements is an attempt to save face. The 5 element theory was an old theory thinking that everything was made of 5 elements. We know now that that is bullsh*t, and atomic theory has completely demolished that way of thinking. So instead of disregarding the belief entirely, people completely change its meaning to refer it to combat. This is problematic on a number of levels.


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## oaktree (Jan 21, 2017)

The five element theory may have been created symbolic or metaphorical and then later generations may have taken that as literal. The Huang di neijing suwen has a section about the five elements however when you examine it closer it is written more in a style of how things are in harmony and disharmony then as the Western word of science. The five element as a combat strategy goes far beyond any atomic theory and even xingyi and is most likely used around sunzi time since the five element theory is generally accepted about first century with the first of the alchemical schools and Wei po yang.


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## TieXiongJi (Jan 23, 2017)

DanT said:


> The current explanation of the 5 elements is an attempt to save face. The 5 element theory was an old theory thinking that everything was made of 5 elements. We know now that that is bullsh*t, and atomic theory has completely demolished that way of thinking. So instead of disregarding the belief entirely, people completely change its meaning to refer it to combat. This is problematic on a number of levels.


That is very true from the scientific POV. The ethical/metaphysical concepts discussed by all philosophers apply as far as you understand their points. Try to understand what the writer had in their head at the time of the writing is impossible and we can only analyze the actual words and try to apply them with whatever context we understand.
Their writings are not useless, just frozen in their personal perspective.


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## DanT (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> That is very true from the scientific POV. The ethical/metaphysical concepts discussed by all philosophers apply as far as you understand their points. Try to understand what the writer had in their head at the time of the writing is impossible and we can only analyze the actual words and try to apply them with whatever context we understand.
> Their writings are not useless, just frozen in their personal perspective.


I agree 100%.


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## DanT (Jan 23, 2017)

TieXiongJi said:


> That is very true from the scientific POV. The ethical/metaphysical concepts discussed by all philosophers apply as far as you understand their points. Try to understand what the writer had in their head at the time of the writing is impossible and we can only analyze the actual words and try to apply them with whatever context we understand.
> Their writings are not useless, just frozen in their personal perspective.


I just don't like pseudoscience being passed off as something mythical or secret and special.


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## mograph (Jan 23, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> By the way, I am only coming up with four elements:
> 
> Metal
> Earth
> ...


I'll take a fifth of firewater, please.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 23, 2017)

mograph said:


> I'll take a fifth of firewater, please.



Are you absolutely sure about that


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## oaktree (Jan 23, 2017)

I am using the five element theory of using earth to heal my metal my theory is since I have a cold by eating a bag of Oreos which are sweet it will heal my metal qi.

The scientific reasoning is I am to lazy to go cook something.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 23, 2017)

mograph said:


> I'll take a fifth of firewater, please.


Brilliant.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I am using the five element theory of using earth to heal my metal my theory is since I have a cold by eating a bag of Oreos which are sweet it will heal my metal qi.
> 
> The scientific reasoning is I am to lazy to go cook something.


A line of reasoning I often employ when sick.


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## greytowhite (Jan 24, 2017)

I see the five phases theory and their respective associations as tools for achieving synesthesia during practice. If I believe while I am doing beng quan, that I am crushing, wood growing outward, using the body as drawing a bow, shooting my fist like an arrow, the color green, moving from the area of of my torso near the liver, I am dissolving anger, cultivating determination, sour taste, rancid smell, stretching the tendons etc. then I am programming my mind to associate these things to engage all of my senses simultaneously while focusing on certain qualities. Later on all of these associations are supposed to be dropped as one embodies them without having to invoke these things for synesthetic experience whilst practicing.

Why would one want to do this? What is going on in the brain? The senses are linked and the various functioning parts of the brain become more unified like a child's experience. The areas of the brain responsible for self and ego downregulate and sensory experience becomes fuller and learning is expedited. There is increased brain connectivity in white matter for self regulation and increased grey matter formation thanks to meditation. These are just tools that can be combined with breathing techniques or plant medicines to deepen one's mental and spiritual side of the practice - the body follows along. There's shamanic stuff right in front of us in so many of these arts if you just have an idea as to what you're looking at. Also neuroscience is just now getting an idea as to what some of these experiences actually do in the brain and have only recently (last 20 years) done studies on things like long-term effects of meditations and entheogens and such on people. It takes a lot of reading in different subjects and correlation but there's exciting stuff going on all around us.


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