# Martial Arts in Sci-Fi and Fantasy #5 - Centaurs



## skribs (Oct 4, 2018)

Something I've been thinking about lately is Centaurs.  I'm assuming the literal half-horse, half man.  Horses, while known for being faster and stronger than a human (and have a particularly strong back kick), don't have much lateral agility.  They don't spin in place very fast and they don't move very quickly to the side.

So assuming a Centaur is about 8 feet tall (5 feet at the shoulders plus 3 feet for a humanoid torso) and weighs about 1200 pounds, this is a creature that will have a significant height and weight advantage.  We're also going to assume this is not a magical creature, but simply a different species.

However, while their legs will be more powerful, they will be less agile, and their humanoid part of their body would be assumed to be similar in size to a human.  Not only will they not be able to turn very quick, but their arms are very high up and out of the way, there's not much they can do with them.  They couldn't grab your legs and might even have trouble grabbing your hands because of how high up they are.  If they do lean forward they've gone away from their center of gravity, and if they kneel down they have a lot more mass to get back up.

Their legs give them the potential for much better balance than a bipedal human, but they also are very vulnerable to attacks from the sides, as a horse's legs can't kick to the side, their humanoid body would be limited in flexibility because it is rooted to the horse's spine, and we once again come to the problem of their arms not being able to reach far enough down to be effective.

In fact, unless their humanoid spine is super-flexible, I imagine the only way Centaurs could make use of their horse's back for carrying items is if two Centaurs help load each other up.  Because that's gotta be a lot like trying to put stuff in a backpack while you're wearing it.

If you factor in armor, it would take a lot more surface area to armor a horse and man, which might protect their flanks better, but would hurt their agility even more.

Their strengths lie in the power of their forward or rearward kicks, or simply the ability to charge with 1200 pounds at an assumed 30+ MPH.

So this leads to a few questions:

Would a Centaur leaning his humanoid body down to throw a punch be more powerful because of the weight he is bringing down, or less powerful because of how far off of his center of gravity the punch is coming from?
Would a Centaur lose power in punches from being unable to twist their body to generate power, or more powerful because they are rooted on 4 legs and have more contact with the ground to draw power from?
How would a Centaur best protect his sides from attack?  Is this a case where the herd in a phalanx position or a coordinated charge is best?  Or are there things individual centaurs can do to protect themselves?
In unarmed combat, would a human stand a chance against a Centaur?  You can take their flank, but I'm not sure how much blows to the ribs will do.  I don't think a human would be strong enough to attack their legs, and the head is probably out of reach.
In armed combat, a human would probably be able to attack a Centaur's flank.  Would the arms of a Centaur with their aforementioned weaknesses be capable of defending their sides with swords or spears?  Or would a centaur be very vulnerable in a gladiatorial setting?
In fantasy, Elves and sometimes Centaurs are often thought of as archers.  Would a Centaur's height and four legs be an advantage in archery, or would their inability to twist their upper bodies be a hindrance?  (Would a Centaur shoot forward or to the side, and if to the side, does that negate the advantage their long body could provide as a support)?  Would their horse's back be useful for carrying arrows, or would that be too hard to reach?
Would humans and centaurs complement each other's weaknesses or get in the way of each other on the battlefield?
Would you rather have a Centaur or a Human mounted on a horse in the battlefield?
Would it be better for humans to mount Centaurs or mount Horses?
What about a modern battlefield?  Would Centaurs be too big of targets for a rifle, or would they have advantages of their own?  Might be hard to fit them into APCs.
Would you design Centaurs a little bit different, or keep them as described?  Some things I can think of are:  shorter body, less powerful but more agile legs, longer arms.  Maybe more of a deer/human hybrid than horse/human hybrid to increase agility.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> They don't spin in place very fast and they don't move very quickly to the side.




Oh horses can, trust me, they also kick forward. They can kick out with both back feet at the same time, they can rear striking you with front legs, they can squash you very quickly against any wall/solid surface. Has it all done to me over the years. Horses can turn around very quickly and get you.


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Oh horses can, trust me, they also kick forward. They can kick out with both back feet at the same time, they can rear striking you with front legs, they can squash you very quickly against any wall/solid surface. Has it all done to me over the years. Horses can turn around very quickly and get you.



I've not got much experience with horses, but all the experience I do have is effectively based on them trying to main me in some way or another...

That said, I'm pretty sure being a centaur would quite likely get you beaten or killed in self defence.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> I've not got much experience with horses, but all the experience I do have is effectively based on them trying to main me in some way or another...
> 
> That said, I'm pretty sure being a centaur would quite likely get you beaten or killed in self defence.




Horses ( and centaurs) aren't too bad, it's the Shetland ponies you have to really watch!


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Horses ( and centaurs) aren't too bad, it's the Shetland ponies you have to really watch!



Seeing as I've ridden two horses and watched at least 3 versions of the lone ranger, I'm obviously the expert here 

Both horses I rode had it in for me, I'm absolutely positive.

The first was a bit skittish from the start, and just wanted to run. Not being an expert quite yet the best I could do was not fall off - as it went careering down a hill onto a road, the change in surface (or something) made it want to stop, but shoes on tarmac don't grip that well...

Second one was old, couldn't be bothered with all that malarkey and for a while almost convinced me that riding a horse could be nice. Was going great, meandering along with one hand on the reins, pretty much in control.

That illusion was quickly shattered when he decided to have a quick grassy snack - only he chose a garnish of electric fence... Hopefully, you can imagine the rest.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> Seeing as I've ridden two horses and watched at least 3 versions of the lone ranger, I'm obviously the expert here
> 
> Both horses I rode had it in for me, I'm absolutely positive.
> 
> ...




We had horses both for my daughter and myself. Owning horses is like standing in a field in the rain tearing up fifty pound notes. We both competed in eventing and would hack out for pleasure, which it was most times. We sold the horses when my daughter went to work in horse racing, now those horses are very scatty, ill trained and highly strung, beautiful to look at but can be lethal.
 I do still love horses though, they can be remarkable creatures, you just have to understand them.  Below, one of my daughter and her favourites, not the one that bit the top of her finger which is now permanently numb.


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## CB Jones (Oct 4, 2018)

Don't underestimate horses turning.

In a fight during Mardi Gras years ago when the Mounted Patrol arrived I got knocked across the sidewalk by one of the horse spinning around.  lol.

Very effective.


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## CB Jones (Oct 4, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Horses ( and centaurs) aren't too bad, it's the Shetland ponies you have to really watch!



Shetland's are evil!

We had a Shetland Pony Stallion kill a Thoroughbred Stallion once.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2018)

We used to have a fireworks display in Melbourne called sky show.

And it invariably turned in to a drunken riot.

Anyway the police would turn up on horseback and just bash people.

So you have the unstoppable weight of a horse moving forward.

You have the weight of a horse pivoting in place.

You have the issue that if you fall over you get trampled.

I saw a guy crushed between two horses and just dragged.

Cops would punch guys fairly effectively from the saddle.

And this was without the horse being smart enough to fire kicks out. Which they can do in pretty much any direction.

And this was with the neccecity of a bridle. Which you might be able to get a hold of.


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## drop bear (Oct 4, 2018)

Horse spinning in place.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2018)

While many people regard Dressage as boring, it's root are in knights training their horse for battle. People these days think of horses 'dancing' around the arena but each movement is useful for an armed fighter. Most of the language and techniques used with horse is military derived, even the side we mount from.
Dressage 101: The History of Dressage


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2018)

So apparently I was wrong regarding a Centaur's ability to kick to the sides.  But I'm still wondering how they would work.

I've been watching the Shadiversity Fantasy Re-Armed series on YouTube.  I don't agree with all of his opinions, and I have some questions he doesn't address (which I obviously asked there, but also thought I'd bring here).


Could a Centaur grab stuff off it's horse back?  Is it flexible enough to do this, or would a buddy system be required?
How would archery work for a Centaur?  Typically archery is done across the body in an angled stance, but a Centaur could only ever use an isosceles stance.  Would they shoot to the sides?


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## Christopher Adamchek (Dec 19, 2018)

They would be more rooted, but i dont feel they could generate the same hip shift for a twisting punch so they would loose power
Probably saddle like armor.  Coordinated charge would help protection and make a formidable wall of warriors.
Not a chance, way too high chance of getting kicked.  Centaur would outpace, outmanouver, and outstrength.
Armed human would want a pole arm designed for taking out horses (front) legs and likely a secondary weapon of a sword.  Id go for the front legs first rather than flanks, head would also be in range with a pole arm.  Id imagine the Centaur with a long sword which would compliment their horse manouverability in adding power to long sweeping strikes.  It would be a tough call for who has the clear advantage.
Stability of being the horse vs riding a horse would help greatly for a centaur archer.  Twisting might be a slight issue but oh well.  Height would also be an advantage, and should be able to carry more arrows by the base of their human trunk.
I think it would be tricky in the same unit, centaurs would easily move faster into battle leaving humans to pick off what makes it through the centaur line or they would be fighting among many downed centaur bodies which would be harder than human bodies.  It would probably be better to have them as seperate units similar to how cavalry and foot units often did with cavalry rounding the flanks and rear of the battle.
Hard choice, reaction time would be quicker and formidable as a centaur but as a cavalry unit you can continue fighting when someone takes out your horse.
Humans mounting centaurs, quicker reaction time and better battle support.
Mostly a hindrance, large target for sure.
Deer hybrid for sure!
Thanks for the fun post!


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2018)

We are talking about a 500kg thing hitting you.

Hip rotation is not going to factor.

For gear. You could do a backpack with a kind of saddle bottom. And carry a mountain of stuff that way.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2018)

And of course they just rear up and kill you.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2018)

Just feed it an apple or a some sugar cubes and you won't have to fight it.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2018)

drop bear said:


> For gear. You could do a backpack with a kind of saddle bottom. And carry a mountain of stuff that way.



My question is if they'd be able to reach it effectively.  How well could they put stuff onto and take stuff off of the horse's back by themselves?


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> My question is if they'd be able to reach it effectively.  How well could they put stuff onto and take stuff off of the horse's back by themselves?



Molle.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Molle.


I don't understand.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> I don't understand.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> My question is if they'd be able to reach it effectively.  How well could they put stuff onto and take stuff off of the horse's back by themselves?



You're making up the creature.... so just put a flexy joint at the junction of the vertical and horizontal spines.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2018)

drop bear said:


> View attachment 21969



I don't understand how that answers the question of whether or not they're flexible enough to reach their back.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're making up the creature.... so just put a flexy joint at the junction of the vertical and horizontal spines.



I'm pretty sure Centaurs aren't my invention!  If so, I have a bunch of people to sue.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'm pretty sure Centaurs aren't my invention!  If so, I have a bunch of people to sue.



Your version is your invention.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I don't understand how that answers the question of whether or not they're flexible enough to reach their back.



You woul have it all just hanging off them so they could reach it.


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## pdg (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I don't understand how that answers the question of whether or not they're flexible enough to reach their back.



I can get stuff out of panniers and a topbox on a motorbike without twisting much in the seat, so I don't see why they couldn't reach their back.

Spines do flex, it wouldn't be a solid connection.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can get stuff out of panniers and a topbox on a motorbike without twisting much in the seat, so I don't see why they couldn't reach their back.
> 
> Spines do flex, it wouldn't be a solid connection.



And I assume the horse spine would flex as well. So I crank one way while pushing my horsie bum the other. Closing the gap a bit.


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## Tez3 (Dec 21, 2018)

These movements were trained by knights fighting in battles, usually only stallions were used as warhorses because they were very aggressive anyway!


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