# Jujutsu and Arnis



## Gulo (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi,
I'm interested to hear from folks whose primary MA were judo/jujitsu/grappling and then took arnis or escrima and also vice versa. How would you compare your stick skills now to the style of Balintawak. After all it is no secret this style had a little history of combat judo (from what i've heard a long time ago). Salamat po.


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## oosh (Aug 17, 2006)

The term "combat judo" comes from the war period, where American soldiers saw Pinoys practicing a form of grappling and coined it 'combat judo', as at the time, judo was what the west had been exposed to. In reality what was being practiced was Dumog/Boltong.


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## Gulo (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi,
the first time i've heard of that term was from a 'barkada' of mine who taught judo at UST in Manila as part of Phys. Ed. He would have specifically told me if what he meant was what you say it is in the local dialec, although it's possible that I may have been misinformed. The thing is before WW2, there were a lot of japanese nationals all over the Philippines many years before. Salamat po.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 18, 2006)

Gulo said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I'm interested to hear from folks whose primary MA were judo/jujitsu/grappling and then took arnis or escrima and also vice versa. How would you compare your stick skills now to the style of Balintawak. After all it is no secret this style had a little history of combat judo (from what i've heard a long time ago). Salamat po.




While there were those who studied "Combat Judo" and or practicted it as well, GM Anciong Bacon who created and taught Balintawak did not teach "Combat Judo". This does not mean that others who studied with him also added in there "Combat Judo" to the Balintawak they taught. 

Which family of Balintawak were you referring too?


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## Gulo (Aug 22, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Which family of Balintawak were you referring too?


 
Hi, sorry for the late reply. i was on short holiday.
i'm not referring to any Balintawak style. imo, it stands on its own and very effective in the corto/media corto range. 
dumog/buno and cadena de mano are empty hand techs of FMA but bears little resemblance to balintawak's traps, locks and punyo strikes (from what little i'd seen so far)
oosh may be right in saying that combat judo is actually dumog just because of marketing/commercialization. karate and judo are more popular than arnis or escrima even in the visayas. salamat po


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 22, 2006)

Gulo said:
			
		

> Hi, sorry for the late reply. i was on short holiday.
> i'm not referring to any Balintawak style. imo, it stands on its own and very effective in the corto/media corto range.
> dumog/buno and cadena de mano are empty hand techs of FMA but bears little resemblance to balintawak's traps, locks and punyo strikes (from what little i'd seen so far)
> oosh may be right in saying that combat judo is actually dumog just because of marketing/commercialization. karate and judo are more popular than arnis or escrima even in the visayas. salamat po



Gulo,

There are those who trained directly with GM Anciong Bacon. There are those who also trained with GM Villasin, GM Lopez, GM Toboada, GM Buot, Sir Bobby Tabamina, GM Moncal, GM Maranga (* In no particular order *).

Just curious with who you trained Balintawak with. 

Thanks


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2006)

Yes, there are many Balintawak instructors out there! I was fortunate enough  to meet Ted Buot once...I wish I had been able to study with him, but he is too far away from me.


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## Gulo (Aug 23, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Gulo,
> 
> 
> Just curious with who you trained Balintawak with.
> ...


 
Hi, i have not trained in Balintawak. i've heard someone described it as judo with stick, hence my question. salamat po.

btw mr. parsons, are you the same person with the famous guro b. bryant?


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 23, 2006)

Gulo said:
			
		

> Hi, i have not trained in Balintawak. i've heard someone described it as judo with stick, hence my question. salamat po.
> 
> btw mr. parsons, are you the same person with the famous guro b. bryant?



I am not with Guro B Bryant. Nor would I say I know him.

As to Balintawak being Judo with a stick, I find it anything but Judo with a Stick. Even "Combat Judo" reference would still not be a good comparison from my experience.


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## arnisador (Aug 23, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> As to Balintawak being Judo with a stick, I find it anything but Judo with a Stick.



Based on my limited experience with it, I agree. (Where are the throws?) But I good see someone comparing the way Balintawak players manage an opponent's stick to the way Jujutsu practitioners manage/trap/lock an opponent's arms.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 24, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Based on my limited experience with it, I agree. (Where are the throws?) But I good see someone comparing the way Balintawak players manage an opponent's stick to the way Jujutsu practitioners manage/trap/lock an opponent's arms.


 

Yes that Comparison is in order.


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## Raymund Suba (Aug 31, 2006)

It depends on the style of Arnis that you do. And in what part of the progression you're in. Most, if not all, Arnis styles have joint locks and limb manipulations and very few throws. Most have standing submissions. Other styles have takedowns. Other styles even have takedowns and submissions with the stick.

Other styles have it, but choose not to focus on it. 

I can see where your friend may make the comparison but a lot of the similarities are superficial. The visualization, and theory behind the moves are very different.

Of course Judo or wrestling isn't my primary art. I took judo waaay after I started learning Arnis.


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## arnisador (Aug 31, 2006)

There is an article in the Sept. 2006 issue of Black Belt magazine on the relationship between jujutsu and arnis, and how each has benefitted from interactions with the other. It's certainly true for arts like Modern Arnis and Eskrido.


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2006)

GM Presas was probably one of the biggest cross overs of Jujitsu and Arnis, I would venture to say that Temor Maranga wet his whistle for the Locking and Judo style throws, Plus Professor loved Wrestling he even coached it for a while....So when he got to the U.S and hooked up with GM Jay it was a match made in heaven....As far as the Balintawak/Judo relationship, ( Not that I have seen all the Balintawak people ) but Maranga seemed to incorperate quite a bit of Grappling of some sort, I don't know if it was Judo, Dumog, or what have you. but I can definately say it wasn't taught by Gm Bacon or Gm Buot.


Rocky


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 2, 2006)

I thought I read somewhere that one of the Canete brothers was in Judo/Combat Judo and combined that with their system of escrima.  Basically making their system much more throw orientated and he gave it a different name than Doce Pares to distingush it.


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## arnisador (Sep 2, 2006)

I think you're thinking of Cacoy Canete's Eskrido.


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 3, 2006)

Arnisador

I thought that name sounded familar when I read it on an earlier post , so if that is the name of his art than that's what I was thinking of.

mark


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## lhommedieu (Sep 4, 2006)

Definitely Cacoy's "Eskrido."  Cacoy has formed his own organization called the Cacoy Doce Pares International Federation.  You'll see in the circular section on the top left of the home page that several of the pictures show various throws and locks.  It should be said that most of techniques in Eskrido involve using the stick as a lever to effect locks and throws - but there is an empty hand curriculum as well that is quite comprehensive.  Although Cacoy has written two books detailing his art, there are also two excellent DVD sets by one of his students, Chris Petrilli, that show several hours' worth of locks and throws that follow Aikido and Silat principles.  Obviously Doce Pares Multi-Style still contains the extensive Eskrido curriculum develeped by Cacoy, and San Miguel Eskrima has it's own locks, tie-ups, and throws using espada y daga.

There are many Filipino martial arts that have a "lock, tie-up, throw" curriculum that includes both the use of the weapon and with the empty hands (Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Modern Arnis come immediately to mind).  In this respect I think that they are no different from any other weapons-based martial art:  there is a place, albeit a small place, where this kind of technique is important and appropriate, and people choose to become expert at it or not depending on the amount of time they have because it is very, very difficult to pull off.  In this regard it is a little like disarms:  not the most important aspect of your art but it has its place.  And like disarms, it can be done effectively and routinely by certain people (my teacher saw Cacoy disarm a very good, non-compliant eskrimador three times in succession during a sparring match - and he did it effortlessly).

There are several Filipino martial arts that have a "Combat Judo" curriculum that generally involves empty-hand vs. knifes, but it doesn't look anything like Japanese budo arts.  They are generally defenses against broad committed attacks by someone relatively unskilled with a knife (99% of the population).    San Miguel Eskrima teaches several techniques in this regard and has a two-man from wherein there is a series of attacks and defenses involving stops, locks, and throws.  The term "combat judo" is probably from the Second World War.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Sep 4, 2006)

lhommedieu said:


> Definitely Cacoy's "Eskrido." Cacoy has formed his own organization called the Cacoy Doce Pares International Federation. You'll see in the circular section on the top left of the home page that several of the pictures show various throws and locks. It should be said that most of techniques in Eskrido involve using the stick as a lever to effect locks and throws - but there is an empty hand curriculum as well that is quite comprehensive. Although Cacoy has written two books detailing his art, there are also two excellent DVD sets by one of his students, Chris Petrilli, that show several hours' worth of locks and throws that follow Aikido and Silat principles. Obviously Doce Pares Multi-Style still contains the extensive Eskrido curriculum develeped by Cacoy, and San Miguel Eskrima has it's own locks, tie-ups, and throws using espada y daga.
> 
> There are many Filipino martial arts that have a "lock, tie-up, throw" curriculum that includes both the use of the weapon and with the empty hands (Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Modern Arnis come immediately to mind). In this respect I think that they are no different from any other weapons-based martial art: there is a place, albeit a small place, where this kind of technique is important and appropriate, and people choose to become expert at it or not depending on the amount of time they have because it is very, very difficult to pull off. In this regard it is a little like disarms: not the most important aspect of your art but it has its place. And like disarms, it can be done effectively and routinely by certain people (my teacher saw Cacoy disarm a very good, non-compliant eskrimador three times in succession during a sparring match - and he did it effortlessly).
> 
> ...


 
I hand the honor to spend some time with GM Canete last weeknd in PA and he is as advertised, incredible. He has soft soft hands and before you know it he has your stick and you have either been beaten with your own stick or you are on your butt wondering what the hell just happened.  I watched him do this to my teacher (his student) Zach Whitson over and over and Zack could do nothing.  I must tell you that Zach Whitson is a 7th blk in American Kenpo, Mataas Na Guru in Pekiti Tersia Kali, & a currently a 3rd under GM Canete.  I encourage anyone in any art to check him out because he truely is a GM of Ecrima and one heck of a funny man to boot.


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