# Ultimate Fighter Reality Show



## Kempojujutsu

The UFC has announced there own reality show, called Ultimate Fighter. It will air January 17th at 11:00 pm est. It will air right after WWE Monday Night Raw. Side Note-You get to watch some fake restling and then get to see some real grappling. If by chance you can't stay up that late. They will run encore presentations on Friday nights 12:00 am, on Saturday's 7pm and on Sunday's 5pm all are EST Times.

They will have 16 fighters and will show them doing workouts, and training together. At the end of each week ,one fighter from each team will fight in the octagon. Winner stays, loser goes home, till they are down to two fighters. The last fight is a live fight on Spike TV. Two of the trainers are Randy Couture and Chuck Liddle.


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## Lisa

I saw the commercials on TV for this the other night.  It sounds interesting enough.  I wonder if all these big strong boys will go through all the emotional stuff that one usually sees on reality TV show competitions.  

 I am gonna have to watch at least the first one to see how they are setting things up.


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## redfang

Saw the first show and read an article about the show in this month's Grappling Magazine.  It was definitely a reality show, meaning it has all the stupid dramatic asides of most of the reality shows.  It has the stereotypical tough guy but an a**hole, that everyone can root against.  It has the loser that doesn't know if he belongs.  Despite this, I think that it will be worth a further look.  There will be match shown each week, in it's entirety, not chopped and edited like we sometimes see.  The training regimen that the fighters are starting on is decent.  I tried the treadmill exercise that they did and couldn't get all the way through.


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## JulesK

Honestly, I was pleasantly surprised by this show. I thought it was going to be a sausage fest, but I LOVE Couture and tuned in for support...and I believe I'm now a fan of the show. Yeah, they did the usual reality-show-character-BS, but it's VERY cool to have the intensity of training and competition for this sport showcased for the mainstream public. So, yay, for TUF, and let's hope Dana White realizes the financial potential of showing the GIRLS next!!!


Jules


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## digitalronin

I caught a piece of it a few nights ago.  Much better than the other reality shows on tv, yea I watch them  Anyone know the exact schedule for it.


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## Kempojujutsu

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> The UFC has announced there own reality show, called Ultimate Fighter. It will air January 17th at 11:00 pm est. It will air right after WWE Monday Night Raw. Side Note-You get to watch some fake restling and then get to see some real grappling. If by chance you can't stay up that late. They will run encore presentations on Friday nights 12:00 am, on Saturday's 7pm and on Sunday's 5pm all are EST Times.
> 
> They will have 16 fighters and will show them doing workouts, and training together. At the end of each week ,one fighter from each team will fight in the octagon. Winner stays, loser goes home, till they are down to two fighters. The last fight is a live fight on Spike TV. Two of the trainers are Randy Couture and Chuck Liddle.



My first post list the times for the show and possible encore showing of it to. All Times are for Eastern Time Zone.


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## RSJ

This show looked alright in general. The fighters themselves are fairly good. I saw some good stuff during the sparring sessions, but then some of them are not that skilled. For example, the black guy with the dyed hair is a very good wrestler but someone like Belfort, Liddel or Tito would start throwing bombs and destroy him because he seems to be hesitant to strike. Most of them fight too much like it was a Freestyle wrestling match and don't strike nearly enough. One thing I learned the hard way is setting up your shoot. I got beamed in the head with enough knees and kicks and eventually figured it out.


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## clapping_tiger

I loved the show, it was better than "The Next Great Champ".  Although it does have the typical reality show figures, this does give the non MMA fan something to watch. For example my wife hates watching fights, but she watched the show with me just to see if Chris (I think that was his name) was going to get beat. The one person who totally doesn't belong is the Canadian guy, not because he is from Canada, but he lacks the self-respect and confidence to make it anyway. I am sure they could have found someone a little less of a baby. Lucky for me I have one of those DVR's that will automatically record the new shows and although I have not seen Monday's episode yet, I will not miss a new show. And there is some good fighters to watch, not to mention the little bits you can pick up from their training sessions.  Chuck and Randy are great representatives of the sport too. Very humble, and very talented. Because of choosing these 2 guys instead of say Tito, this show may help bring the UFC more mainstream.  It would be really cool if they brought in some other legends to train these guys in some upcoming shows. Some guys I would like them to see bring in to give them pointers would be Ken Shamrock, Phil Baroni (even though I don't like the guy, he is a good fighter), and one of the Gracies.


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## LateBloomer

There are not too many reality shows worth watching but this one is not to be missed. I saw both the first and second shows. I was surprised that the Chris jacka$$ was not eliminated in the second show. He looked like he wanted to get kicked out with his behavior. This is getting even more interesting.


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## Kempojujutsu

I forgot it was on last night. Will have to pick up the encore this weekend. No football this weekend perfect time to watch it.


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## MJS

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> I forgot it was on last night. Will have to pick up the encore this weekend. No football this weekend perfect time to watch it.



Same here.  I believe that the replay is on Fri. night.

Mike


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## triwahine

My eyes are going blurry.  I saw the time, but what channel?  I can't read anymore....

tanks!!


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## Kempojujutsu

It's on Spike TV. The same channel as Monday Night RAW (WWE).


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## triwahine

Thank you.... I guess I don't watch the TV Guide Channel long enough to see what's on Spike and a few other channels.  Hmm, come to think of it, the Comedy Channel must be at the bottom also.  I'll look for it.


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## Gin-Gin

Yeah, it's on Spike TV, Monday nights at 10:00pm (Central).  Each week's episode is shown again on Friday & Saturday nights.  I usually don't watch reality shows, but I enjoy this one mainly for the training (I ignore some stuff, like the blonde woman who is obviously "eye candy" for the guys since it's on Spike TV, & some of the stuff that goes on in the house).  I envy the variety of training they get (3 separate coaches: one for Muay Thai, one for Boxing & one for Grappling), but do not envy the tough workouts they have to endure--Oy! I got tired just watching them.  Anyway, at least a few of the guys have good attitudes about the training & why they're there, so I try to enjoy it for that.  _I wish there was a UFC for women!_  

And yes, even though I also wish that Chris Leben (the red-headed obnoxious guy)would get kicked off, he's a good fighter so that probably won't happen.  Too bad that someone in good shape who can fight can be such a jackass. Oh well, one day he will get "humbled" - maybe not on the show, but somewhere down the line...The challenges are interesting (they're supposed to be based on traditional MA training stuff); I like the one where they had to saw the log into pieces, take the pieces to another area where they had to put it back together, & then carry the reassembled log back to its original spot.  Exercises like that force them to work together (or not).  So, it will be interesting to see who wins.

If anyone wants to find out more about the show or the coaches (Randy Couture & Chuck Liddell), the March 2005 issue of Black Belt magazine has an interview with both of them.

:asian:


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## Kempojujutsu

Last night couldn't sleep. Got up to watch TV around 2:00am. On Spike TV they ran a paid advertisement for Super Brawl. Can't remember how much for the 3 video tapes. But they ran some interviews with fighters, showed some knockouts, tapouts. Has anyone seen this advertisements. I think it was only 30 minutes long. They showed it in between two Girls Gone Wild ads.


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## terryl965

Do you know what I find funny is that this show has rule's in place and one fighter break the rule's by leaving the ground and he still on the show. Why have rules if they do not mean anything. I mean kids watch and so do young adults and all they are saying if you have a little talent you don't have to follow the rules.


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## Kempojujutsu

I almost miss the whole damn show again! Caught the last 10 to 15 minutes of it. I thought originally, players would be elimated by matches only. I didn't think it was going to be this reality crap. Second if they are going to have rules, reguardless of who you are, or what kind of talent you have. If you break the rules you should be gone. I would be happy if the other 14 fighters ganged up on Jack A$$ Chris beat the living crap out of him and he couldn't continue. It would be only fair. I am sure Chris is a good fighter and he does show a lot of heart and guts. But the thing he doesn't have is respect. I value that over talent. I just hope he doesn't make the final cut. Something inside, says he will be in the middleweight title fight.


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## Marvin

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Why have rules if they do not mean anything. I mean kids watch and so do young adults and all they are saying if you have a little talent you don't have to follow the rules.


The funny thing is, that is the reality of life. ie Tyson, Kobe, etc...


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## terryl965

well bobby cut the weight and knocked out his opponite, what a over hand right that was!!!!!


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## Kempojujutsu

I really thought he was just going to quit. Then I thought he wouldn't have any gas for the fight after trying to drop the weight. Next week looks good. Maybe Chris will get beat?


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## still learning

Hello, I believe they had a story about this reality show in " Black belt magazine" and listed the fighters.  .....looks like it might be interesting to watch.    ........Aloha


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## kempo108

i dont know if anyone else saw this. but it looked like bobby knocked out a tooth on ludone. if you watch it close, you see something small and white go flying. too small to me a mouthpiece. could be a glob of vasciline(sp?) also, but i doubt it.


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## relytjj

It looked to me like it was vaseline or whatever else they placed on his cuts. He seemed to have all of his teeth when speaking afterwards, though I could be mistaken.


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## Gin-Gin

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Why have rules if they do not mean anything? I mean kids watch and so do young adults and all they are saying if you have a little talent you don't have to follow the rules.





			
				Marvin said:
			
		

> The funny thing is, that is the reality of life. ie Tyson, Kobe, etc...


Yes, something we have to remember about this show is that it's mainly about two things: getting ratings & making money.   Although there are a couple of guys who have good attitudes (& I'm rooting for them), I think all of the contestants would agree that people should not look to them as rolemodels, but as guys trying to get their "big break" as professional fighters (IMHO); just my observations. :asian:

Btw, welcome to Martial Talk, *relytjj*! :wavey: We have a lot good folks & an active TKD forum here; hope you enjoy it. 

I also saw the "white thing" fly from Lodune's face in the fight last night, but I don't know if it was a tooth or something they put on his injuries either... :idunno:


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## RSJ

I personally enjoyed the fight. It's been a while since I watched any NHB matches. I was giddy, I admit, as I observed the proceedings. Two problems I saw were Southworth's piss-poor attitude and Sincaid and Couture's total underestimation of Southworth. When Liddel was spouting off after the boat race, I could understand why. I would've kicked the guy off right there. Still, Southworth looked pretty good walking into the octagon afterwards. There was no way he was just 206. Which begs the question; how much do lightheavies actually weigh come fight time ? He looked as much as 215.


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## Kempojujutsu

Here is the web site for the Ultimate Fighter Reality Show.
Click Here


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## Vadim

I have to admit I was amazed Southworth was able to cut 20 lbs. . It seemed that he was going to quit but he didn't. That was the positive part. I am not to keen on Southworth's attitude. Hopefully he'll change his attitude into a positive one and utilize his talent to its full potential.

-Vadim


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## triwahine

I only caught the end of the show because of class... it was interesting.  Could it have been the mouth piece that went flying?  Just thinking....

Hope to catch more next week....


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## samuelpont

i`m from the u.k and unable to recieve this show! boo. Is there any kind hearted soul out there who would send me a recording!


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## LateBloomer

I was also surprised that Southworth managed to shed 20 pounds in 24 hours. I was impressed by his team mate Josh Koscheck. This guy worked with Southworth during all that time forcing him to stay in the sauna and encouraging him the whole time. I give Josh all the credit that Southworth managed to pass the weight in and then go on to fight and win. Harray for Josh.


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## relytjj

I agree with giving most of the credit to his teammate Josh. Southworth's willpower and determination were weak from the race to the fight. If not for Josh he would be home right now. Even if he is the most skilled fighter out of the bunch, which isn't the case, he won't win. His mental weakness will weed him out later in the competition.


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## SammyB57

RSJ said:
			
		

> I personally enjoyed the fight. It's been a while since I watched any NHB matches. I was giddy, I admit, as I observed the proceedings. Two problems I saw were Southworth's piss-poor attitude and Sincaid and Couture's total underestimation of Southworth. When Liddel was spouting off after the boat race, I could understand why. I would've kicked the guy off right there. Still, Southworth looked pretty good walking into the octagon afterwards. There was no way he was just 206. Which begs the question; how much do lightheavies actually weigh come fight time ? He looked as much as 215.


Southworth had the flu. He also received an invitation to be on the show on short notice, he didn't have much time to prepare.

Now, you try to compete (and win) with the flu, after cutting 20 pounds in 24 hours, and then start talking about who's tough.
As for that challenge.... he's been training 6 hours a day, he's had the flu, cut him some slack. He probably was trying but his muscles had no strength left, that's what happens when you push your body to the limits. It's not a matter of will but of physical limitations sometimes.

After seeing him cut the weight, I would be very reluctant to question his heart.

HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT?


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## SammyB57

...and did I mention he had the flu and was coughing up bloody mucous?


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## SammyB57

No one has mentioned it, but it was Lodune Sincaid's fighting skills which were the most unimpressive.... maybe he was having a severe off-day? He looked like he had never stepped in the ring before.


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## clapping_tiger

a little late here, but I saw the fight too, and I thought it may have been a tooth. I am not 100% positive, but if you watch the interview after the show, it looks like it may have been a tooth on his right side. It looked to me like there was a gap there, but you could barley tell fromt he camera angle. It seemed from the start that Lodune didn't have much skill. But you can't really base that opinion on seeing the guy fight once. But for what was at stake, he should have brought his "A" game, and if that was it, he didn't belong there anyway.


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## LateBloomer

I saw the third installment of this show and I believe that Lodune did lose a tooth.  There was a three second spot where they show Southworth in the house chatting with a teammate about that fight and Southworth mentioned "tooth".Last night's match up between Karalexis and Sanchez was disappointing.  I wanted it to go longer.  Grappling skills are sooo important in this format.


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## triwahine

That was an extremely quick fight last night.  I guess we all know what Karalexis will be working on more often....  All of them deserve alcolades for just being there.  I hope that all do well and go far.


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## Dronak

I'm probably coming in a bit late on this, but since I just saw the thread, I thought I'd comment.  I've never really seen much mixed martial arts, or real martial arts stuff in general, so I thought this would be an interesting show.  I'm not especially knowledgeable either, particularly in grappling and ground fighting (it's been ages since my one season as a high school wrestler), so it can be a little hard to follow some of what's going on.  I'm not going to ask about all sorts of basic stuff I don't know, but maybe someone could explain this to me -- why was the fight last week stopped by the ref?  They said the winning fighter scored a knockout, but the other fighter was down only momentarily.  He got back to his feet again pretty promptly after the ref came over.  Did the ref see something to indicate the fighter was just out of it, something I couldn't see on TV?

This week's fight was a very different style, much less striking and a lot more grappling.  That made it a bit harder for me to tell who had the advantage and was in control of the match, though I was assuming it was the guy on top (who ended up winning).  It was also a faster match, won by submission rather than knockout (or ref stop).  Interesting difference in how the matches went.  

Well, I plan to keep watching it to see how it goes.  It is a little bit of MMA on TV.  It's also on when I wouldn't normally watching anything in particular and it follows WWE Raw, which I do watch, on the same channel, so I'm already tuned in.


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## RSJ

I just noticed that dude's comments were directed towards me, higher up there. Lol. I've not had to cut that much weight, but I know about being tired. I played Offensive Guard for my city's football team in the summer of '03 in 40-45 degree celcius heat. Not only that, I was on kickoff return, punt team, feild goal team and punt return as well. Due to injuries and a fake punt play, I was on the feild for almost a half-hour straight (remember, the clock stops on certain occassions). My God, I was exhausted. Then, five minutes later, I got to go back out for another ten or fifteen. Did I mention some genius made us wear our black jerseys instead of gold ? Oh well, it was good to play, regardless. Of course, I'm sure cutting that much is about 20x harder.

Of the latest fight, I have to say I'm impressed with Diego. He didn't mess around. He shot in, took him down, worked to the mount and took advantage of Alex Karalexis' mistake. Of course, Karalexis wasn't a seasoned ground fighter. HE GAVE UP THE BACK ! I was like " Ugh...oh God, what a newbie !" being that I'm a huge grappling fan and perfer to work for the sub myself rather than the knockout. Then I remembered Diego was very experienced and I decided to cut Alex some slack. At least he fought as best as he could and didn't cover up and give in. Diego got lucky in terms of that fact that Karalexis was going for the knockout too early. Had Karalexis been more patient and stayed behind his jab for a while, I'm sure he could've done much better. That's how a striker best beats a grappler (IMO), just stay behind your jab and keep your distance. Eventually, the grappler may just get impatient and catch a nice knee or cross to the face. I should know...let's just say I've eaten some leather a time or two. 

Ok, this may be obvious to a lot of people, but I will still say it; It seems like these fights have been pre-determined (not the way the fight is won, just who will fight who) before the show even began. Also, I'm not saying in two or three weeks Couture can make a seasoned NCAA wrestler/champion sub grappler but I would think that his boys would be somewhat better grapplers. Chuck Liddel seems like have all the good grapplers on his side. I would've thought that they would've gravitated towards their own style in the fighters. Chuck is a sprawl and brawl guy and Couture is a clinch and ground kind of guy. I would've sworn initallialy Koscheck would be Couture's number one pick based on his top-notch wrestling ability. Even still, it would be an honour to learn from either coach. 

P.S: I'm not trying to bad-mouth anyone, btw.


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## Gin-Gin

RSJ said:
			
		

> Of course, Karalexis wasn't a seasoned ground fighter. HE GAVE UP THE BACK! I was like " Ugh...oh God, what a newbie !" being that I'm a huge grappling fan and perfer to work for the sub myself rather than the knockout. Then I remembered Diego was very experienced and I decided to cut Alex some slack. At least he fought as best as he could and didn't cover up and give in.  Had Karalexis been more patient and stayed behind his jab for a while, I'm sure he could've done much better. That's how a striker best beats a grappler (IMO), just stay behind your jab and keep your distance. Eventually, the grappler may just get impatient and catch a nice knee or cross to the face.


Good advice; also, we talked about it a little in class last night & something else Karalexis could have done (if he absolutely HAD to face his back to Diego) was that he should have crossed his hands in front of him towards his neck, & then moved his shoulders up to keep from getting choked.  But, as you said, if he'd just stayed behind his jab & kept his distance, he could've made it into a "striker's match" (& capitalized on Diego's injured hip) instead of a grappling one, which is what it became.  As Couture said, "classic striker's mistake."



			
				RSJ said:
			
		

> Ok, this may be obvious to a lot of people, but I will still say it; It seems like these fights have been pre-determined (not the way the fight is won, just who will fight who) before the show even began. Also, I'm not saying in two or three weeks Couture can make a seasoned NCAA wrestler/champion sub grappler but I would think that his boys would be somewhat better grapplers. Chuck Liddel seems like have all the good grapplers on his side. I would've thought that they would've gravitated towards their own style in the fighters. Chuck is a sprawl and brawl guy and Couture is a clinch and ground kind of guy. Even still, it would be an honour to learn from either coach. P.S: I'm not trying to bad-mouth anyone, btw.


No, it doesn't sound like you're "bad-mouthing" anyone, at least not to me.  As for whether or not the fights are predetermined - who knows? :idunno:  The UFC is a business, & part of the show is finding the next possible contenders (IMHO).  Also, the fact that Dana White, the guy in charge of the UFC, promised $5,000 to whoever won by knockout or submission may support your theory.


			
				triwahine said:
			
		

> I guess we all know what Karalexis will be working on more often.... All of them deserve accolades for just being there. I hope that all do well and go far.


Yes, I'm sure he & everyone else out there who wants to compete in the UFC will definitely incorporate grappling into their arsenal (if they haven't already).  Coming from a primarily strking art, part of the reason I watch the show is to see what mistakes the contestants make in the matches (like Karalexis) & try to learn from them.  It *is* a great opportunity that they're given!


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## LateBloomer

Gin-Gin said:
			
		

> part of the reason I watch the show is to see what mistakes the contestants make in the matches (like Karalexis) & try to learn from them.


Same here, although I don't grapple, I 'fool around' with a 15 year old in my MA class for fun; we try to attack each other spontaneously using all kinds of MA techniques and I need to be prepared for anything he may throw at me (he's son of the sifu and is trained in all styles of MA).


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## SammyB57

RSJ said:
			
		

> I just noticed that dude's comments were directed towards me, higher up there. Lol. I've not had to cut that much weight, but I know about being tired. I played Offensive Guard for my city's football team in the summer of '03 in 40-45 degree celcius heat. Not only that, I was on kickoff return, punt team, feild goal team and punt return as well. Due to injuries and a fake punt play, I was on the feild for almost a half-hour straight (remember, the clock stops on certain occassions). My God, I was exhausted. Then, five minutes later, I got to go back out for another ten or fifteen. Did I mention some genius made us wear our black jerseys instead of gold ? Oh well, it was good to play, regardless. Of course, I'm sure cutting that much is about 20x harder.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S: I'm not trying to bad-mouth anyone, btw.


I play offense, defense, and special teams as well. I had shin splints, and it's Oklahoma, so the weather goes without saying. But I am still sure that cutting 20 pounds is 20x harder. Well, maybe more like 10x.


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## SammyB57

RSJ said:
			
		

> Of the latest fight, I have to say I'm impressed with Diego. He didn't mess around. He shot in, took him down, worked to the mount and took advantage of Alex Karalexis' mistake. Of course, Karalexis wasn't a seasoned ground fighter. HE GAVE UP THE BACK ! I was like " Ugh...oh God, what a newbie !"
> .


Actually, I am pretty sure Karalexis knew not to give up the back. He was probably trying to "buck" Diego off, and wasn't succesful.

His first big mistake though was in his half-guard game. He made another newbie mistake there.

He was just too outclassed by Diego.


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## SammyB57

Dronak said:
			
		

> . I'm not going to ask about all sorts of basic stuff I don't know, but maybe someone could explain this to me -- why was the fight last week stopped by the ref? They said the winning fighter scored a knockout, but the other fighter was down only momentarily. He got back to his feet again pretty promptly after the ref came over. Did the ref see something to indicate the fighter was just out of it, something I couldn't see on TV?
> 
> .


Diego had a submission hold on Karalexis called a rear-naked choke. Karalexis "tapped out" and so the referee stopped the match. Had he not "tapped out" he would have gone unconscious. The RNC is more commonly known as "the sleeper hold" and less commonly known as mata leao.


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## MJS

SammyB57 said:
			
		

> Diego had a submission hold on Karalexis called a rear-naked choke. Karalexis "tapped out" and so the referee stopped the match. Had he not "tapped out" he would have gone unconscious. The RNC is more commonly known as "the sleeper hold" and less commonly known as mata leao.



 I may be wrong but I think the fight in question was from the week prior.  To answer this question:




> "-- why was the fight last week stopped by the ref? They said the winning fighter scored a knockout, but the other fighter was down only momentarily. He got back to his feet again pretty promptly after the ref came over. Did the ref see something to indicate the fighter was just out of it, something I couldn't see on TV?"



One of the jobs of the ref. is fighter safety.  The rules may be slightly different in this show compared to the actual UFC, but regardless, it (the KO) was enough for Big John to stop the match.  We see this all the time even in the UFC.  A fighter gets KO'd, jumps right back up, and seems ready to go.  If I'm not mistaken, this happened in the recent UFC on PPV.  

Mike


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## Dronak

SammyB57 said:
			
		

> Diego had a submission hold on Karalexis called a rear-naked choke. Karalexis "tapped out" and so the referee stopped the match.



Sorry, maybe the difference in posting time and reading time made things a little confusing.  I was talking about the previous match . . . checking the web site . . . Bobby and Lodune.  In the second round Bobby knocked down Lodune who got back to his feet quickly, but the ref stopped the match and I think Bobby was credited with a win by knockout.  Lodune wasn't actually knocked out though.  He got back up and was ready to fight.  So why was the match stopped?

I guess like MJS said, it was a fighter safety issue.  Maybe even though Lodune got back up right away, the ref saw that he was a little out of it in some way and deemed it unnecessary to continue the fight.  I've seen that sort of thing happen in boxing matches before, some of the few I've watched, but usually you can see the ref talking to the fighter, giving him a few seconds to see if he's recovered.  Here the ref stopped the match so quickly after Lodune stood up (no standing eight count like boxing does IIRC), I wasn't really sure what had happened.  But I guess it was essentially the same thing.

As for the Diego/Karalexis match, while I didn't know the details of the move, I could see that Diego basically got Karalexis in a choke hold, cutting off his oxygen supply.  He would have lost whether he tapped out or not, the main difference being whether or not he was still concious at the end of the match.  Plus a tap out win by submission is a clear win, the loser clearly signals his defeat, so that ending was a lot easier to understand than the one in the previous match, for me anyway.


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## RSJ

You play 'ball in Oklahoma, do you ? I'm sure that's a whole lot more competitive than here in Canada. Heh, how big was I...5'11" and 225...yeah thats about right. I was playing right guard and right tackle. I got to line up against their biggest tackles. The nice thing about those 6'3" to 6'5" and 250-280 lbs guys is that they're slow. Oh Lord, that was funny. This one guy who was 6'5" and going on 300 pounds lines up in front of me...meanwhile, little old me at 5'11" is sitting there thinking "Hmm, what's he gonna do...bull-rush or bull-rush ?". Needless to say..he bull-rushed. Except...he was a lot slower than I was off the line. To quote Lodune, sort of, I would have had to knit a sweater and write a novel before he would beat me. It was the guys from 5'9" to 6 feet and 220-230 that gave a whole lot more problems. Anyway, this isn't a football forum...

Diego versus Nate Quarry would be a good enough fight, I think. I also want to watch Southworth versus the Spanish Light Heavy from Couture's team. Leben and Koscheck would be a brawl. Leben looks like a beat-down expert while Koscheck plays a strategic warfare kind of game. Leben will win that if that ever occurs. Koscheck is either gonna get slaughtered in a standing brawl or he will get backed up into the fence and punched to ****. His only hope is a takedown, and I think Leben would expect a takedown attempt. Leben reminds me of Tito Ortiz who isn't the best but he sure is good at that take you down and whoop your *** kind of fight. Tito, during his reign, did have a few quality opponents who he beat.


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## SammyB57

I'm small for a linemen too, but luckily I was pretty good at chop blocking.... and using boxing when the refs weren't looking. (just tape the hands heavy and put on some gloves.... most defensive linemen aren't taught to avoid being punched, you can really knock a guy around even with a helmet on.... especially if you catch him in the chinstrap.)

Also for Dronak.... if a fighter is knocked down and unable to defend himself the ref will usually step in, because unlike in boxing, you can hit a downed fighter. And if he is on the ground and can't mount a defense, he's going to get his head turned into goop. Well maybe not really, but yeah.


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## Dronak

Ah, good point, SammyB57.  As you can probably tell, I don't normally see much MMA so my knowledge about it is limited.  But what you said makes sense.  If a fighter is unable to defend himself for whatever reason, the fight should be stopped.  It is basically a safety issue then, too, because If the fight isn't stopped, serious physical damage could occur to the losing fighter.  I was just watching some streaming video of some MMA stuff (not sure exactly what) and a match was stopped for basically that reason -- the fighter on top was punching the fighter on the ground who really had no way to defend himself from the position he was in.  As I see and read a bit more about this sort of stuff, I'll get the hang of it.  Thanks for the info and help everyone.

BTW, about the TV show, I was a little surprised that they ended on a cliffhanger.  The match to decide which fighter leaves the show next is being delayed until next week's episode.  Oh well, there's nothing we can do about it.  We'll just have to wait to see what happens.


----------



## JDenz

Randys first two picks were guys on Team Quest I am pretty sure that is why he didn't end up with Josh.   Leben is going to clean house he is probably the best fighter in the house, I can't wait to see him and Diego go.  Southworth was a baby about cutting weight lol look at the way CHuck treated him lol.


----------



## Gin-Gin

JDenz said:
			
		

> Randys first two picks were guys on Team Quest I am pretty sure that is why he didn't end up with Josh.   Leben is going to clean house he is probably the best fighter in the house, I can't wait to see him and Diego go.  Southworth was a baby about cutting weight lol look at the way CHuck treated him lol.


Actually, I believe Chris Leben will fight Josh K. (the black guy with blond hair) next week.  Remember, that was the solution to the "disagreement" between Chris & Josh after the stunt Josh (& Bobby Southworth) pulled on last night's show....when all 3 of the guys were almost kicked off.


----------



## Dronak

Right, the coaches and owners decided to go with a fight between Chris and Josh, since they were both in the same weight class, to settle the near fight situation that they showed last night.  That fight will be shown on next week's show.  But that doesn't mean that Chris won't face Diego later, if they're both in the same weight class (I haven't really been keeping track) and still on the show.


----------



## Gin-Gin

Dronak said:
			
		

> Right, the coaches and owners decided to go with a fight between Chris and Josh, since they were both in the same weight class, to settle the near fight situation that they showed last night.  That fight will be shown on next week's show.  But that doesn't mean that Chris won't face Diego later, if they're both in the same weight class (I haven't really been keeping track) and still on the show.


True, that would also be a good match.  And, if Chris beats Josh K., it may happen.


----------



## Kenpobuff

I admit I watch it and very little if any other reality type shows.  I'm glad they put the two against each other to work out their differences.  Next, if Chris wins, they might consider putting him against the other instigator, the Lt Heavy Bobby..Like the original UFC fights.  May make good tv.


----------



## RSJ

This shall be an excellent fight between Koscheck and Leben. Well, highly anticipated at least. Leben is going to kill Koscheck. The Cat Smasher (best nickname I've heard in ages) is going to knock Koscheck into a bloody and unconcious state before round one is up. If Koscheck lasts five minutes, I'll not only be suprised and impressed but befuddled. He pushed Leben way too far. Leben may be a big-time s**t-talker but I bet he could back it up with his fists. And as Dizzy Dean (I think) once said " It's not bragging if you can do it." 

The question is, how is Koscheck going to beat Leben ? If I'm Koscheck, I'm going to try to clinch up to avoid getting smashed, take Leben down and work for a sub. I'd be very careful about shooting for a double, lest I get sprawled on and get pounded to a bloody mess. I wouldn't do the ground and pound thing; there's too many risks involved.


----------



## LateBloomer

LateBloomer said:
			
		

> I was also surprised that Southworth managed to shed 20 pounds in 24 hours. I was impressed by his team mate Josh Koscheck. This guy worked with Southworth during all that time forcing him to stay in the sauna and encouraging him the whole time. I give Josh all the credit that Southworth managed to pass the weight in and then go on to fight and win. Hooray for Josh.


After watching this week's episode, I take back what I said about Josh. I lost all respect for him for his stupid stunt and lack of self control and judgement. Leben is no saint but Josh and Southworth went too far to provoke him. I look forward to the next bout.

To come up with the solution the two coaches and Dana White did was like the wisdom of Solomon. I totally agree that this is the best way to settle this very ugly incident. Things like this is what separates this show from 'reality' shows. This show makes sense.


----------



## SammyB57

I think if there is a season 2 of the ultimate fighter, it would be wise to have 2 houses, one for each team, as well as at least one day a week to go and blow off steam instead of saving it all up for 3 weeks. If the guys could see there families or go out on the town Saturday night and get Sunday to rest that would be helpful. Even Olympians take Sundays off....

Seriously, These guys haven't seen females in 3 weeks, other than the incredibly hott willa ford who is their coaches girlfriend, they've been fighting and training 6 hours a day, it would drive me crazy.

Training 6 hours a day is tough, and they combine that with living with guys who on any given day could be trying to knock you out. Insane.

Props to the contestants.


----------



## WilliamJ

Funny how they cannot have tv, newspapers or phones but they saw fit to give the house an endless supply of booze. They set the table and this is what happens. Trained fighters, cooped up with nothing to do and alcohol and there was a near fight? You're kidding.

Bobby and Josh went too far, and Josh is the one who has to step up and pay for it. Did you see the look on Chris's face when they told him the fight was on? He looked like a kid on christmas morning. Josh looked like he had just been told there was no easter bunny. Leben by 1st round KO.


----------



## triwahine

Definitely made for a spicier show last night.  Too much alcohol and that's what you get: STUPIDITY on both sides.  I think the show made the right choice in letting the two square off next week instead of just booting someone.  Let the skills do the talking in this case.


----------



## Kempojujutsu

Before last night show, I wasn't a big Chris Leben fan. I think he is going to kill Josh K. And yes he did look like a kid on Christmas morning, when told of the fight. I bet Josh comes up with a way not to fight Chris. Maybe a training injury?


----------



## JDenz

You have to look at it from there point of view as well though.  Bobby seemed to be friends with the candian guy that got kicked off the show.  Cris pissed on his bed he has been on everyones nerves throughout the show.  I am pretty sure that Bobby and Josh are just tired of him and all of his sh** I think that we would all feel that way trapped in a house with someone we hate.  Not only that for two weeks Chris has been calling Josh out and talking about him.  I mean how would anyone react under theose circumstances espically after drinking.  BTW I know Chris and Josh are fighting I was just assuming that Chris won, :wink wink:  and I am looking forward to Diaz and Leben (they are the same weight class)


----------



## WilliamJ

Chris is no angel, but his trash talk has always been limited to fighting. He never seemed to make it personal.


----------



## RSJ

Actually, about seperating the guys into two houses, from a t.v producer's perspective that would be a wholly bad idea. The ratings will probably be at an all-time high now, with all this new drama. Look at the buzz it's even causing here. My God, this must be what Survivor is like for people. I never got hooked on any reality show until this one. 

Liddel's training session for conditioning with his boys looked an awful lot like my wrestling practice. They did bear-crawls and walking along with weights and squatting. Only, at my practice, we use a partner as weight. Trust me, the stuff they did is killer if you've never done it before. On a side note, I never realized how in-shape wrestlers were until I began training with them.

Leben and Sanchez; heh, you speak as if Leben beating Koscheck is a foregone conclusion. You know what ? I bet it is. I suspect Koscheck is going to get mangled badly. Leben broke the jaw of his last opponent before the show in a slug-fest. I bet something like that will happen to Koscheck. My gut feeling is that this is a stage for Leben (an accomplished amatuer MMA guy) to be taken up to the next level. In all seriousness, which middleweight is even close to his calibur ? He's fought sixteen times before this and holds a lot of belts including the sportfight 185 lbs division. Nate Quarry is the next-best and then Diego or Kenny Florian. Truth be told, Leben is the best in the house. Koscheck has fought all of two times that I know of. Leben is the middleweight contract-winner, IMO. The question is, who makes it for the light-heavies ? No one stands out to me. Southworth suprisingly has a large record, including a loss to Vitor Belfort in Pride 13. He may go far. As for the rest, I don't really know.


----------



## Shogun

when they showed the previews for next week, the look in Leben's eyes was comparable to a gracie....


----------



## RSJ

Jesus, he was SMILING and seemed to be laughing for joy. I could practically smell Koscheck's fear through my T.V. He had the 'Oh F***' look in his eyes. Koscheck will probably do everything he legally can to make in out alive. Hell, he probably is gonna hide some brass kuncks or something in his trunks. I could tell right away that Leben isn't someone you push around. Unlike the others, he isn't scared. He actually wants to fight. I can't say the same for the others.


----------



## Dronak

No doubt he was thrilled.  Didn't he even say that it was the best thing they could have told him?  He *so* wants to beat someone up and now he's going to get his chance.  I haven't really cared for his general attitude and trash-talking, but if he can back that all up in the fight next week, I'll give him credit for being able to do what he says.


----------



## Shogun

Well, put it this way, he wanted Koscheck BEFORE he poured water on him, AFTER he wanted to kill another human being (Mr. Bobby).

I remember when they were all sparring before teams were selected, he knocked Josh on his @$$....during sparring.....

It should be good...


----------



## SammyB57

RSJ said:
			
		

> Actually, about seperating the guys into two houses, from a t.v producer's perspective that would be a wholly bad idea. The ratings will probably be at an all-time high now, with all this new drama. Look at the buzz it's even causing here. My God, this must be what Survivor is like for people. I never got hooked on any reality show until this one.
> 
> 
> Southworth suprisingly has a large record, including a loss to Vitor Belfort in Pride 13. He may go far. As for the rest, I don't really know.


They should at least give them seperate sleeping quarters with locks or something so no spritzing or hose-downs occur.

Leben is probably the middleweight winner and Tito Ortiz replacement. If Ortiz goes to Pride, they have a perfect replacement in Leben. Boisterous, crazy, and relentless, he'll bring in fans.

Southworth is the most experienced fighter, but that kind of plays against him. He's too old to have much of a career left. I could be wrong (look at Randy), but he's like 36. Unlike Randy, he's only been training since his mid-20s as I understand it. Randy was wrestling since he was in diapers. That makes it a little different. I like Forrest and Mike Schwick. Schwick will make it far, but probably won't win. Forrest has a good chance.

I wonder how Quarry's injury will come along.


----------



## RSJ

Hmm yeah, Swick might just win it, but still I really still don't know.


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya

Looking forward to see Leben v Koscheck (sp) fight.  Koscheck and Southworth really went way off the edge provoking Leben, Koscheck may just have sealed his own fate...

Question ?:  How badly did Leben cut his hand ?  Will this injury be a detrimental factor ?


----------



## Dronak

IIRC, he basically managed to slice some skin off the knuckles.  I believe he had it checked out and told the coaches that it looks worse than it really is.  So it might look bad, but I don't think it was really that serious of an injury.  Whether or not it's bad enough to affect his fighting, I couldn't say.


----------



## Kempojujutsu

Wow Josh won.


----------



## 7starmantis

I was certainly surprised, even watching it


----------



## kempo108

i thought chris was going to come out swinging, but he didn't let his hands go. and josh stuck with his game plan very well. i thought i was going to see more action out of the 2 that hated each other so much.


----------



## WilliamJ

Another UFC style lay and do nothing victory, this is why I prefer Pride.


----------



## Gin-Gin

Again, it seems we had a classic "striker vs. grappler/wrestler" match.   I'm not a professional, or even a seasoned fighter, but it seemed to me like Chris won the first round (landed more shots) than Josh.  Obviously, Chris also had problems getting up once Josh took him to the ground, but Josh (who is supposed to be a nationally ranked wrestler according to the show's web site) couldn't get a submission no matter how many times he took Leben down--what does that say about him?  Did Chris do well at defense (keeping Josh from getting the armbars, chokes, etc.) & just get tired in the 2nd round?  :idunno: 

Either way, as Dana & Randy said, you don't want to leave it up to the judges.  IMO, Chris won the 1st round, Josh won the 2nd (but never got a submission, so did he really "win"?).  I wish they had gone one more round, but what's done is done.


----------



## psi_radar

Chris played way too cautiously--I think he was a little too conscious of his emotions getting the better of him. His defense and counters were good in the first round, I would have judged that round for him, Josh just got the takedown and tied him up. Chris also had a chance to win it in the second round when the ref stood them up, but he didn't get set quick enough and Josh nailed him with the double-leg. I would have liked to have seen another round, too. I was surprised, a much more boring fight than I expected. There also wasn't too much ground skill being displayed, I didn't see Josh try a submission, or Chris attempt a reversal. Chris tried a wrist lock once that was unsuccessful. Overall pretty dissappointing.


----------



## RSJ

Oh my God...I can't believe how crappy that fight was. Josh did very well from a technical standpoint but it was boring. Josh's takedowns won the fight. They were beautifuly executed, not that I'd expect different from a top wrestler. Chris should've thought with his head instead of his penis and worked for a submission instead of trying to hurt Koscheck which obviously wasn't working. Josh put out his neck like five times and he could've been guillotined or kimuraed. Ok, that's just me but I'm a submission guy myself and not a striker.

This show HAS to be rigged. There is no way a 4-0 wrestler with next to no striking skills should be able to own an 18-1 power puncher, and Leben's victories were against some tough guys. If Koscheck wins the middleweight contract, I will be stunned and dumfounded. Provided Quarry's ankle heals up in time, I suspect he will win yet.


----------



## Dronak

Yeah, I was a bit surprised, too.  Others seemed to have covered most of the points already.  Chris didn't seem to go for a lot of strikes, so maybe he was playing it a little too cautiously, to keep his emotions in check.  But if Josh was such a good wrestler, I'd think he would have done more on the ground.  I totally understand the general concept that the man on top is in the control position, but I thought you had to do a bit more than basically ride the guy to win the rounds.  Even though Josh was on the bottom, he never let Josh pass his guard.  He couldn't reverse or escape, but he kept punching and trying to do some damage.  Maybe he could have tried something else that might have worked better, but Josh seemed mostly to lie on Chris, give a few hits, and push his forearm in his face.  Like others said, no real submission attempts either.  They said that Josh was warned for striking the back of the head (I wasn't sure which one got the warnings when I was watching) and the ref stood them up for Josh not advancing his position, at least once.  (I guess that explains why and when they do a clean break.)  That's some indication that despite Josh's control position, he wasn't working it to his advantage.  I haven't seen a lot of MMA competitions, so I don't really know what's common.  But even so, I'm going to have to agree with WilliamJ and what Chris said in the show -- if Josh wins, it would be because he laid on top of Chris and squeeked out a victory that way.  It did seem like Josh basically took down Chris and kept him on the mat, but did little else.  I was a bit surprised that (1) there was no third round at least and (2) it was a unanimous decision for Josh.  As I said, I thought you needed to do a bit more than ride your opponent to win rounds.  But I'm too new to this stuff, so what do I know?  *shrug*


----------



## clapping_tiger

From a spectator and fans point of view the fight was boring. Neither guy showed me anything that impressed me. But from Josh's stand point, he couldn't have fought a better fight. He knew he was less experienced, and knew he couldn't stand and trade punches with Chris. He comes from a classic wrestling background, so I don't think his submission game is very strong. He would be good at takedown, pinning his opponent, and reigning down elbows and punches, and basically draining his opponent of any fighting spirit. Which in a way is what he did. Did he suck at it?  I thought so. His elbows were few and far between and pretty weak, But he did swell up Chris's eye. But he stuck to his game and took Chris out of his. Chris was beat after the second takedown. The Lay and Play style only works when the guy you are fighting with does less than you. Chris didn't really land any punches, and only got off one good knee, but it looked like it glanced Josh. Josh really landed no good punches but I think he had 2 good knee shots.  As far as the scoring goes. I don't think I am an expert or anything. But I felt Josh won both rounds also. Even though Chris' takedown defense was pretty strong, Josh took him down every time they stood them back up, and that is something in the judges eyes. I know for a fact that Judges in the UFC do lean toward the fighter who delivers some damage. And like I said before, Chris's eye was puffed up. For being a striker, Chris threw few punches and even less landed. He was a disgrace to the striker race. And once he was on the ground he was basically owned, with the exception of one close submission attempt. Josh clearly won the fight in my opinion, even though his performance was not that impressive either.

What did amused me was how much such a self-proclaimed bad *** cries so much. I know losing can be tough, but come on. He had no right to complain about Josh just laying on him, what did he do? Throw 5 punches?


----------



## clapping_tiger

RSJ said:
			
		

> This show HAS to be rigged. There is no way a 4-0 wrestler with next to no striking skills should be able to own an 18-1 power puncher, and Leben's victories were against some tough guys. If Koscheck wins the middleweight contract, I will be stunned and dumfounded. Provided Quarry's ankle heals up in time, I suspect he will win yet.



No way this show is rigged just because the underdog won.  How can a 4-0 wrestler beat an 18-1 power puncher?  Take the puncher out of his game. Remember in the fight game, anyone can win. What if everything was reversed, would you say the same thing? "how can an 4-0 power puncher with no ground game, own a world class 18-1 wrestler? I think the key to victory is who can exploit thier opponents weaknesses and use their strongest points. Although I was disapointed in Josh's lack of submission skills. All these guys are pretty much on the same level of conditioning. The only difference we see in their record is their MMA experience. Josh has a lot of wrestling experience, and that does not count for his 4-0 MMA record. If Chris was supposed to be so good, what did he show us? Just a little less than Josh. I don't think Josh will win the contract, the guy who fought and won last week by a rear naked choke is a better fighter than Josh was. We will be able to form a better opinion once we get to see all the guys fight though.

By the way, I don't care much for Josh. I thought all around he didn't have what it takes to win the contract. But he did win that "fight".


----------



## RSJ

Ok, I agree that it is possible for the lesser experienced guy to win. I was just very suprised and dissapointed with the fight. Even still, something is odd about this show. 

I agree that Diego is better than Koscheck; they come from different backgrounds, however. Diego is a submission grappler, not so much a wrestler. Koscheck no doubt is the best takedown artist in the house, but then that's all he seemed to be able to do. He looks like Severn prior to him working on his striking and subs. He just wins with takedowns, taking his opponent down left and right. He has to learn to at least work for subs. His game looked deficient.


----------



## clapping_tiger

> I was just very suprised and dissapointed with the fight.



So was I. It was pretty weak. I think because of the build up, and all the tough talk Chris talked, I thought it was going to be a very good fight. 



> Even still, something is odd about this show.


I guess we will find out next week. Did you see the preview to next week? Looks like the judges score a fight for a fighter that did not clearly win. It will be interesting to see what Dana Does. The thing with these reality shows is they always seem to be able to play the cast however they want them. I was getting suspicious when Chris was getting away with whatever he wanted and never had to face the music. I thought they were pushing for him to win the whole thing. 



> I agree that Diego is better than Koscheck; they come from different backgrounds, however. Diego is a submission grappler, not so much a wrestler. Koscheck no doubt is the best takedown artist in the house, but then that's all he seemed to be able to do. He looks like Severn prior to him working on his striking and subs. He just wins with takedowns, taking his opponent down left and right. He has to learn to at least work for subs. His game looked deficient.



That is what surprised me. The game has changed so much and with such a strong background in wrestling, I thought that he would have worked on subs a lot and not relied totally on wrestling, not to mention bringing his striking ability up to speed. But I didn't even see him attempt one submission. That confused me. Still, it is a pretty good show. After we get a chance to see what everyone has, it will be interesting to see who everyone thinks may take the contracts.


----------



## MJS

I certainly was surprised by the outcome.  I thought for sure that Chris would have won.  IMO, he should have come out much more aggressive with his striking.  I'll give Josh credit with his takedowns, but once on the ground, he did very little except hold Chris down.  That is one rule that should be changed IMO.  I think that even if you are in the top position, you should be required to do something other than just hold the person down.  If someone can win by holding someone down, then they should not be stood up by the ref.

Mike


----------



## triwahine

All I can say is BORING!  All the hype and none of the gusto.  I was really shocked to see that it was such a slow match.  I thought Chris would have come out more aggressively, but I believe someone else mentioned he might have been watching his emotions too much.  He might have let that get the better of hime.  I don't know, I'm not in his head.  Only Chris knows what he was thinking and how he was reacting.  As for Josh, he sticked to his game plan and it paid off.  I will say in rather dull fashion.  For two guys that hated each other so much, they sure didn't explode in the octagon.  Hope to see a better match in the next week.....


----------



## Shogun

Diego will win the Middleweight class, now that chris is gone.

aw, I still am mad about josh winning.


----------



## SammyB57

Josh has only been training MMA for a year, so cut him some slack. We have yet to see the submission guys in action other than Diego and he was quick.

Kenny Florian and Diego will be the top Jiu-Jitsu representatives I think.
We haven't seen much of Ken Flo, Mike Swick, Sam Hoger, all because they are normal and cool and don't have the house antics. But Ken Flo is sposed to be a bad mama jama on the mat. Did anybody catch him sweep Josh Koscheck like a ragdoll!

I also like Forrest a whole lot. He is so hilarious, he adds much needed comedic relief.

The show isn't rigged but it's biased. Leben got babied all day long because he was Randy's boy. It's also weird how Randy is so good at MMA competition, but as a coach hasn't won a single challenge or fight yet.

Koscheck's takedowns are near unstoppable. He just doesn't know enough Jiu-Jitsu to know what to do once he takes his opponent down.

Preview of next week is a foretaste of the bias. It's in all combat sports when matches come to a decision. Dana says it was a draw but the judges gave a decision. I am sure it will bring plenty of debate.

UFC rules aren't as good as pride. They (the UFC) favor wrestlers and lay and pray.


----------



## triwahine

I would like to see them brought back to standing more quickly if action is not there.  I think the 2+ minutes before they are brought back up is too long and can be boring.  I mean little/to no strikes and no attempts at submissions, should be re-started from neutral IMHO.  I like to see a good fight, when the action is there and constent.  Maybe we'll see more in fights to come.


----------



## clapping_tiger

> I would like to see them brought back to standing more quickly if action is not there. I think the 2+ minutes before they are brought back up is too long and can be boring. I mean little/to no strikes and no attempts at submissions, should be re-started from neutral IMHO. I like to see a good fight, when the action is there and constent. Maybe we'll see more in fights to come.



I agree, but on a positive note. The UFC did change it's rules if they pull the fighters off to have a doctor look at a cut. Like in the rematch between Randy Couture and Vitor Belfort when they seperated the fighters on the ground to have the doc take a look, and when the doc gave the go ahead they restarted them in the postion they were in when they stopped them. So who knows, maybe they will shorten the time a fighter can just lay on his opponent and rely on taking him down everytime they stand them up because of lack of action.


----------



## sobeballer

Dude, I can't believe I've actually been excited about this show. Where did they find these guys? Ultimate fighters? I can't believe I waited 3 weeks to see these to guys hug each other in the ring. No bumps, no bruises, no attempts for locks or chokes, come on guys your on national TV looking like a bunch of fairies. Ultimate losers


----------



## ginshun

All I know is that I was pretty hyped up to see that Chris/Josh fight, and it ended up sucking big time.

 The whole fight all I did was wonder why neither of them even tried to put any kind of submission on the other one. Its probably easy to say from the outside looking in, but to me it looked like they both had several oppertunities for wrist / elbow / arm bar type submissions. Wether they could have actually gotten them really sunk in is another thing, but it didn't even look like they tried.

 Maybe they just don't really know them that well.  If that is the case, I can't see Josh beating anyone who actaully knows submissions.  He's going to take the guy down, and then get beat once he is on the ground because he has nothing to do when he gets there.

 Wrestling is great to know, but pinning a guy doesn't get you a win in UFC.


----------



## Mr_Scissors

Go and watch a tape of the fight, you'll see multiple attempts at a kimura from Leben, he coudn't lock it but that's another issue. He also tried for oma-plata shoulder lock at one point but used the wrong hand so it didn't work. 

All-in-all the fight was awful, but there were some submission attempts. 

I find it appalling that Leben had amassed an 18-1 record before that time.


----------



## Marginal

I got suckered. Looking back on the events leading to the fight, nothing happened. A guy threatening to cripple or kill someone because he got wet? That's retarded. In retrospect, I didn't care about the "crime" at all. I just don't like Josh and his pal, Bobby. (Southworth moreso)


----------



## RSJ

Ultimate losers ? Lmao. Truth be told, the quality of the fights has been piss-poor. Lodune gets KTFO'd without putting up much of a good fight to a guy who had just cut 20 pouds the day before. Karalexis gets tapped by a guy in under two minutes and Leben gets laid on and bores me to death.


----------



## WilliamJ

Yeah, but Alex was not tapped by a nobody Diego Sanchez is a hell of a grappler.


----------



## clapping_tiger

In defense of the show, we have to remember what these guys are fighting for. A UFC contract, they are not fighting for a chance at the UFC title, or even a "Super Fight". Some of the preliminary fights in the UFC events are just a bad a showing as what we have seen in The Ultimate Fighter. When these guys win the contract, dont expect to see whoever wins fighting Randy or Chuck for quite some time. You may not even see them for a while after they win the contract, because their skills are not up to Main Event status. What we are watching is someone getting a shot at someday becoming a UFC contender, but not right off the show.  Now we may see them in the First event after they win the competition just because of the exposure they got from the show, but if that fight is a wash. It will be a long time before you see them on PPV, they will be a preliminary fighter until they show some real crowd pleasing skills.


----------



## SammyB57

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> It will be a long time before you see them on PPV, they will be a preliminary fighter until they show some real crowd pleasing skills.


It's ironic Karo Parisyan and Genki Sudo usually end up in the prelim's since they are both exciting fighters. I want less interviews and hype, more fights.... just like Pride.... minus the worked fights.


----------



## Dronak

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> When these guys win the contract, dont expect to see whoever wins fighting Randy or Chuck for quite some time. You may not even see them for a while after they win the contract, because their skills are not up to Main Event status.



That's a good point.  In case any of you watched the Tough Enough series that the WWE produced a couple years ago, it was the same thing.  The wrestlers were fighting for a chance at a contract.  As I recall, they did get a few appearances on TV after winning, but rather quickly they were taken off and, I assume, sent to developmental schools to train.  Eventually if they were good enough, they got back on TV again.  They weren't main event status to start, so you didn't see top-notch wrestling in the show.  I expect this will go the same way.  Once the people get the contracts, they'll probably continue to train in order to get to a higher level.  Give them some time and they may prove to be some of the best young fighters around right now.  *shrug*


----------



## SammyB57

There are much better MMA fighters out there that aren't in the UFC.... but the shows had many stipulations that most MMA fighters didn't want to agree to. Some of them already had contracts with other organizations like King of the Cage and Rings.


----------



## Gin-Gin

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> In defense of the show, we have to remember what these guys are fighting for. A UFC contract, they are not fighting for a chance at the UFC title, or even a "Super Fight". Some of the preliminary fights in the UFC events are just a bad a showing as what we have seen in The Ultimate Fighter. When these guys win the contract, dont expect to see whoever wins fighting Randy or Chuck for quite some time. You may not even see them for a while after they win the contract, because their skills are not up to Main Event status. What we are watching is someone getting a shot at someday becoming a UFC contender, but not right off the show.  Now we may see them in the First event after they win the competition just because of the exposure they got from the show, but if that fight is a wash. It will be a long time before you see them on PPV, they will be a preliminary fighter until they show some real crowd pleasing skills.


That's a good point to remember. 


			
				SammyB57 said:
			
		

> There are much better MMA fighters out there that aren't in the UFC.... but the shows had many stipulations that most MMA fighters didn't want to agree to. Some of them already had contracts with other organizations like King of the Cage and Rings.


I didn't know that; something else to keep in mind. 
:asian:


----------



## Troy Ostapiw/Canada

Chris and Josh......Interesting subject.  I Was realy expecting Chris to knock Josh out.  The outcome was disapointing to say the least.  On the other hand I respect both of them for having the courage to fight, and get into the octagon.

It was odvious that Josh  possessed poor striking abilities, but made up for it with his wrestling background.  All Josh did was shoot, then pin Chris on the ground.  Once on the ground he was unable to score effective hits on Chris.

Chris on the other hand, was cautious not to try and move in too hard or too fast.  He did a good job of sprawling to prevent the takedown.  I do feel that the best chance Chris had was to Knock Josh out.  Chris may have been too cautious, by not try to land the big hit right away.  Chris kept his distance while both fighters were standing.  Chis wanted to land the KO, but did not want to move in to fast as this would give Josh a opportunity to get Chis's legs.  I do belive conditioning played a factor.  It appeared Chris was the weaker of the two.  The last take down by Gosh in Round 2 could have been prevented, and almost was.  Chris appeared too tired to stop Josh from comming in. 

I  belive Chis won the fight, but lost to the judges.  I would have liked to seen  the extra  O.T. round.   As the weeks move on the light heavey weights are losing members too quickly.  I don't belive this is fair to the heavey weights, as they keep losing members to the L.H.

Over all, I would like to see more training, and less drama.  I could care less about These guys running  obsticle courses on the beach.  

Has anyone heard if the show will go next season.  I would like to know as I would be interested in applying.  Being a Canadian I would like to take the place of the last Canuk.  I can't remember his name,  (the guy from B.C. Canada) but he never should of been there representing Canada.  BELIVE ME WHEN I SAY CANADA DOES HAVE TALENT, THE DUDE FROM B.C. IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO OUR TOP FIGHTERS.  THAT GUY LACKED CONFIDANCE, HEART AND PHYSICAL SKILLS.  MABEY I'LL GET LUCKY AND APPLY.

Reguardles of the situation these guy's are very lucky to have the chance to train full-time with the best in UFC.  I would not take that opportunity lightly.
You can only get better with that level of training.

Take care all.  I look forward to your comments.

Troy ostapiw


----------



## SammyB57

Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:
			
		

> I belive Chis won the fight, but lost to the judges. I would have liked to seen the extra O.T. round. As the weeks move on the light heavey weights are losing members too quickly. I don't belive this is fair to the heavey weights, as they keep losing members to the L.H.
> 
> Troy ostapiw


They aren't LH and Hvywght teams. They are Team Couture and Team Liddell and mixed with Middleweights and Light Heavyweights.

What's your MMA exp. Troy?


----------



## InvisibleFist

I for one, was THRILLED to see Chris get his trash talking *** whipped.  I'm looking forward to the house being without him.  

As for the fight, Josh did exactly what was required for him to win...he was fighting a fighter with almost five times the experience of him.  He played it safe, and didn't risk going for the submission.


----------



## Dronak

I keep forgetting what the weight classes are called (and their ranges).  But yeah, each coach has some guys from each weight class.  They started with 8 guys, 4 from each class.  I think they want to keep the teams relatively even though.  And with one coach losing fighters much faster than the other coach, they make the more winning coach pass guys over.  I can understand that.  What I do wonder at is why the coaches' picks are giving such uneven results.

Yes, Josh did what he was good at and able to and obviously under the rules of the UFC, it was enough to win.  I think I've said before that I know very little about MMA, but from what I saw, I wasn't terribly impressed by either fighter.  Chris didn't get much striking when they were standing or do much from the ground, but Josh didn't do much besides get takedowns and stay on top of Chris on the ground.  And as I said, I understand the top being the dominant/control position, but I thought you had to do more than just ride your opponent to win the round.  Josh seemed to win by doing little more than keeping Chris from escaping or reversing after the takedown.  IIRC from my old and limited high school wrestling days, that would win you wrestling matches.  I didn't think it was enough to win a MMA competition though.  *shrug*  But what do I know?


----------



## Troy Ostapiw/Canada

I have faught  14 Full contact matches.  I have yet to lose.  I am not afraid to lose, as I am a fighter with practical experience.  My matches were never sanctioned.  We would often take on challenges from other schools, and or fighters.  I have a open mat policy at my gym.  I have also had a chance to spar with some great practioners in L.A. Washington, Calgary Canada and soon  Tokyo Japan.

In 1994 all of our training was full contact, no gear, we just fought.  The idea was to find out what realy worked.  As time went on, we began to wear hand pads, as the head would bleed very easily when hit with bare knuckles.  

Today our  classes consists of reality based martial arts for self-protection, and self-defence.  We also teach MMA, to keep the clients diverse.  The realy hard days of traing are over, but there is a select few in our training hall that keep it real.

Can't wait to see tonights show.......
Troy


----------



## Kempojujutsu

What a B.S ending. I sure in the hell don't know what those judges were watching. Bobby Southworth won that fight. Maybe they give it to Couture Team's because they haven't won yet.


----------



## psi_radar

I disagree. Stephan dominated the first round, and had the second by a hair. Southworth may have reversed a couple of times and got in some shots, but he definitely didn't win it. If anything, the fight should have gone to another round.


----------



## Dronak

I found it hard to judge, but I don't see much MMA, so that's to be expected.  As a split decision, obviously the judges didn't even agree on who won.  But this is why they have a few -- not everyone may see exactly the same thing or judge it in exactly the same way, so get a few and majority rules.  A lot of people did offer comments afterward the fight.  Both men were able to take down their opponent and deal with being taken down themselves.  I did get the impression that Bobby was doing more striking from the ground and landing more punches more solidly when standing.  As for who had the top/mount position more often or longer, I'm not sure.  Bobby naturally thought he did, but when he said that, I immediately thought "I don't think so".  At least, I certainly wasn't as sure as he was.  I was kind of pulling for Stephan though because after Bobby's instigating Chris last time and apparently not realizing his role in that whole affair (or knowing but denying it), I prefered to see him leave.  What the one coach said about Stephan being a bit more agressive, moving in and advancing more often, may have been the difference.  Maybe constantly trying to take the initiative pushed things in his favor.  *shrug*  The preview said the controversy would continue next week, so I guess we'll hear more about it then.  What I'm most curious about is the return of an eliminated fighter.  I wonder who it is and why they're allowing him to return.  We'll find out next week.


----------



## Marginal

"He needs to learn some respect"

That from a guy who flipped off the judges etc. Who's whining will span two episodes.

Buh bye Bobby.


----------



## sobeballer

I'm glad last weeks sad display didn't totally discourage me from watching again. Last week was pathetic. At least there were some blows thrown, some good take downs, and a little bit of Fight in the so called next "Ultimate Fighter". I'm still sick of seeing so much crying in this show. It is quite disappointing. I hope the show goes another season and the casting director has been in a fight before. This fight at least did show some fighting in their blood. I'm glad Bobby lost and cried about it. It might not of been a unamous deciocion but the other guy was truly the aggresor. I'm glad I can watch again.(sorry for spelling)


----------



## kempo108

did anyone see the coming attractions to next weeks show? they are bringing someone back who was eliminated already. i have a feeling its going to be chris because they show josh's reaction and he look upset or scared.


----------



## clapping_tiger

Last nights fight was close, but I think Bobby S. won. Stephan was more aggressive, and threw a lot of punches, not not many of them landed. Most of the shots hit Bobby's gloves, arms, shoulders. I agree with what Dana White said, that Stephan won because in the judges eyes he was more aggressive. Bobby wasn't wrong when he said he had a better ground game, and landed more shots. He even stunned Stephan, and Stephan didn't really do anything to Bobby. All in all it was a good fight, and both guys were pretty good. I would have been more shocked if it would have been a unanimous decision. But like they said, you never know when it goes to the judges. I think all of us in here have a fairly good grasp on what makes a good a fight, and look how divided we are on who won. 

I hope they don't bring Chris back, I will be very disappointed if they bring someone back who lost a fight. They way I see it, is if you were eliminated your out. They might as well bring everyone back who lost. But it may not be someone who lost in a fight though, it is probably one of the fighters who was cut before the fights started. That is my prediction.


----------



## RSJ

Well, compared to the previous fights, this one was pretty damn good. I personally thought it should've gone to a third round because the first was Bonnar's round and the second was Southworth's. I was impressed with Southworth's ground ability as was I with that of his opponent. There were actual submission attempts. A triangle from Bobby and a guillotine (my favourite sub) from Stefan. There were sweet reversals, lots of shots exchanged and a couple good takedowns. Stefan fought smart in the first round by throwing some heat, clinching and driving his man back into the cage and using his knees, negating his opponent's heavy hands. One thing I would've done differently is when Bobby's back was open for a couple seconds as he got up, I would've attempted a supplex or a takedown. That's just me. Overall, a good and even fight. I was cheering on Stefan, btw. Stefan won because of his aggressiveness in the second round and his pretty much total effective control of the first. Southworth was throwing a lot of punches, but he didn't score as many takedowns nor did he work the clinch as effectively. I'd score them even on the ground. Still, for damage's sake, it should've went another round.    

Southworth did get robbed to some extent, so I can understand why he's pissed off. Even still, flipping off the judges and throwing a temper tantrum is no way to re-act. Also, Bonnar did get in a late shot on Southworth. 

I think it has to be either Karalexis or Leben coming back, and my money is on Leben, the better fighter and more controversial charecter in the house. If it is Leben, there with be a Leben vs. Koscheck two and I don't like Koscheck's chances unless he suddenly learned to box like Jens Pulver or Fedor. This time, Leben would open up and make Koscheck bleed and probably hurt him pretty badly. Koscheck will start crying the minute Leben got back. " This is bull****..." blah blah. He knows his chances of winning are pretty slim if Leben comes back. If it's Karalexis, I won't be upset. He looks like he's pretty good but lacks experience and needs work on the ground.


----------



## clapping_tiger

If they bring back a fighter who was eliminated because he lost a fight, I will be seriously disappointed. That is the rules. You lose, your gone. It shouldn't matter if you are a better fighter than the performance you gave. If that is the case, bring them all back. You could make the same claim about the other 2 fighters who were eliminated as you could about Leban. If they say he didn't get to showcase his abilities or didn't get to fight his game, that's the nature of the sport. Good Fighters lose, poor fighters win, and people get robbed. Better luck next time. Leban can get his rematch after the show, but as far as the show goes, he should be gone. I think it would be a better move for the show (not in ratings, but integrity)if they brought in a fighter who was cut before he had a chance to show what he had against an opponent. If they bring Leban back they might as well have him sign the contract right there, because it will be obvious that they will do whatever it takes to give him chance after chance after chance to win this thing. I would have booted him after he pissed on that other guys bed. Good Fighter or not, after that he should have been cut.


----------



## RSJ

Then again, on the other hand, it may be a fighter that was elimanated before the 'show' began. There were four guys. If it is Leben, as he said, this show is about the best fighter not the 'nicest guy' or 'most outstanding citizen'. Frankly, I don't believe as martial arts practitioners that we are more obligated to be better people than most. There are good people that have never trained in martial arts and ***holes that have trained for 20 years. I believe people should just be good to others in general, but sometimes you need to lighten up and be a jackass and inmature and sometimes you need to be forceful and take care of business.


----------



## 7starmantis

I think he won because like others said, he showed more agression, and he did have a few good takedowns. I'm interested to see who comes back, I would hope is was Leben only to seee Josh get his *** handed to him. Bobby's crying will span two episodes and wasn't he the one being vocal about leben after his fight, crying and whining about it? Bobby and Josh are my least favorite out of the group, and I'm actually glad to see Bobby go, his 34 year old *** is too old to be acting like a 14 year old. My only interest in Chris Leben is that hes a pretty good fighter and I know he will fight Josh again.

 7sm


----------



## SammyB57

So far the fights haven't been amazingly impressive, even for "unexperienced" fighters. Most of them are about blue belt (purple belt if we're generous) level Ju-Jits, although the wrestling is leet. But what can you expect, the UFC favors wrestlers for some reason? Josh Kos is an extremely skilled wrestler but his jiu-jitsu probably couldn't even qualify for a blue belt. The stand-up striking is decent, but these guys are way too hesitant for the most part....

I can't wait to see Kenny Florian and Forest Griffin display their skills.

I am sick of all the @$$-whiping Leben got, if he comes back, it's just a freaking joke. He's an insecure cry-baby who couldn't back anything up.


----------



## DavidCC

It won't be Chris, that doesn't make any sense...

Why don't they ust schedule these for 3 rounds?

If koscheck did enough to win then so did bonnar.

They could have the losers fight every other week to get back on the show.


----------



## Shogun

What if they brought back the Canadian gymnast? we never did get to see him fight......

I love chris, but I dont think bringing him back would be a good idea.

Go Forrest!


----------



## SammyB57

Having 2 rounds is probably safer. You have to remember, these guys are training hard-core (with no training cycle like a real fighter would have) and they may have to fight on two consecutive weeks.

They probably want good fights but having that extra round increases the chances someone could get injured bad, win or lose. I don't think it could hurt though.

And I watched the WWE before TUF, and those guys can never complain about lay and pray. Those WWE guys take like 10 minutes to get up off the ground after they are knocked down.


----------



## triwahine

Well, at least there was more action and continuous movement throughout the two rounds.  I do think that it should have gone to a third round, but it's in the judges' hands.  Scoring is always so subjective.  I think we all can say that points have been given, or not given, under the same pretenses.  Anyways, Stephan got the win.  A third round would have been really helpful...

As for a returning fighter, I don't get it.  If you lose, you're out.  Why is one coming back?  Anybody can beat anybody on any given day.  Just because one has more experience doesn't mean one will win everytime.  Anything can happen...

I guess we'll see next week. :supcool:


----------



## Turbo

IF it is lebmen I will be pissed!  No one should be coming back...Lebmen is a quest trainee...this would be showing special treatment toward him...NO ONE SHOULD BE COMING BACK...its not right.


----------



## kempo108

i think they are bringing someone back because nat wont be able to fight. so they need to replace him. but i dont think its fair to bring back someone who lost already.


----------



## WilliamJ

The rumor, take with a grain of salt because it's just a rumor, is that Randy and Nate get to pick Nate's replacement because of his ankle. So if that's the case they will pick Leben of course. Personally I think it should be a new fighter, someone who was not on the show before.


----------



## clapping_tiger

I never thought of that. I was wondering why they would bring someone back who was cut/lost, but that makes sense. I agree though, it should not be someone who lost. It should be a new fighter, or someone who was cut and did not get a chance to lose in the cage.  

On a semi-related note. I can understand why they want to keep the teams even for the sake of the challenges. But I don't remember who said that most of the time you get rewarded for winning, but here because you are on a winning team you get sent to the losing side and that sucks; but he was right. Can you imigane if you were on that winning team and flying high, feeling unstopable, and then you are forced to go to the losing team, because you are winning so much. If a team has more guys than the other team, they can have a guy or two sit out the challenges so the challenge is even, and have the team with the fewer guys pick who they compete in the challenge against. I don't like the shuffling around, even though I can see why they are doing it. They could do it Survivor style when the teams get smaller Merge them all into 2 teams. The Middleweights and the Light Heavy's and now it is every man for himself. Chuck and Randy would each get time working with each group.  That's the way I would have liked to have seen this done. But then again, I am not a multi-million dollar show producer either.


----------



## RSJ

Moving around the fighters is actually a good idea. It keep things honest between the fighters, knowing full well one of 'em may go to the team they'd just been talking ***** to the day before. Also, the oppourtunity to train with BOTH Chuck Liddel and Randy Couture would be something I'd look forward to.


----------



## FearlessFreep

_Can you imigane if you were on that winning team and flying high, feeling unstopable, and then you are forced to go to the losing team, because you are winning so much._

If the team was winning because of you then going to the 'losing' team could make them the 'winning' team.

If the team was winning in spite of you then, well...you deserve it


----------



## dsp921

I hope they don't bring back someone that lost because Quarry got hurt and can't fight. If he can't go he should be eliminated and that's it. 
If you can't make weight you'd go home and no one would take your place. If they are bringing back a fighter that lost, the only one that makes a LITTLE
sense is Southworth, that was the only fight that had some controversy. Liddell, White and even Couture thought the fight should have gone to a third round.


----------



## 47MartialMan

The reality of UF is that it is not so UF! I do not need to watch it do know this. I think that it is over-hyped. Plus, can one be considered a true martial artists to particpate and spectate this event?


----------



## Marginal

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The reality of UF is that it is not so UF! I do not need to watch it do know this. I think that it is over-hyped. Plus, can one be considered a true martial artists to particpate and spectate this event?


'Cause in the street, we hit dirt just 'cause it looks mean, and tickle eachother with electroshocks and ram eachother with cars to prove we are men. 

Or something like that.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Marginal said:
			
		

> 'Cause in the street, we hit dirt just 'cause it looks mean, and tickle eachother with electroshocks and ram eachother with cars to prove we are men.
> 
> Or something like that.


A little more clarification.......


----------



## SammyB57

If it's not Ultimate Fighting, why don't you challenge Chuck Liddell to a street brawl? I know, I know, you're a martial artist and would never stoop that low. But seriously, if you won't prove your skills, how do you know they are skills?


----------



## 47MartialMan

So is this the reason we train-to prove our skills? to show them in such a spectative way?


----------



## RSJ

What is the point you ask ? Are fighters still martial artists ?

The point is that the octagon is a proving ground. For your art, for your gym and most of all, for yourself. The emphasis for almost all fighters is to compete and see if they can't overcome their fears and limtations to win and achieve glory, fame and money even. Many idiots and 'tards make try to make the UFC into a bloodbath massacre like it was a gladiatorial match from Ancient Rome. This is not how things are intended to be. It was once a spectacle and now it is a true and legitimate sporting event. Are football players not athletes simply because they tackle, smash and knock down their oppoenents ? 

Fighters are still martial artists. I'm sick of this antiquated Karate Kid 'Martial Arts should never be used for sports' mentality. Wrestling, BJJ, Kickboxing, Kempo, Vale Tudo, Pankration, Sambo...all of these disciplines are martial arts and fighters train in many of them. Fighters are both martial artists and athletes.


----------



## clapping_tiger

> The reality of UF is that it is not so UF! I do not need to watch it do know this. I think that it is over-hyped. Plus, can one be considered a true martial artists to particpate and spectate this event?



 I don't know exactly what you are saying, but I think you are saying that  Ultimate Fighting is not "real" fighting. In a sense that is true, but the modern UFC is not the same as when it first came to be. In the early 90's they pit style vs. style to see who would come out on top. The only major rules were no eye gouging and no biting, most of these fights were pretty brutal. It basically was a street fight in a cage with a reff. Now it has evolved into a sport, just like boxing and kickboxing, but now there is grappling involved. It still has the name Ultimate Fighting championships because that is the name that most people know, But there are other organizations like Pride out there that are pretty much the same thing. No, one is objecting to the fact that these are no longer street fights, and there are rules. These rules keep the fighters from getting seriously hurt or killed. If you want to see "ultimate fighting" go out and rent UFC 1 thru 4. If you want to see world class athletes compete in the best fighting events of modern times, go watch a UFC or Pride fight. In my opinion MMA is a cut above Boxing and Kickboxing, because you have the freedom to not only strike, but grapple. And you have to be able to do both in order to succeed. If you are only a striker, you will be submitted, and vice versa. Also you said you do not have to watch one in order to know.  How can you base your opinion on something you have not seen?  

and as a side note, these fighters are probably the most well rounded Martial Artists out there. So yes they are true martial artist to participate in these events. Most train several hours a day in boxing, BJJ, Muai Thai.


----------



## clapping_tiger

RSJ said:
			
		

> What is the point you ask ? Are fighters still martial artists ?
> 
> The point is that the octagon is a proving ground. For your art, for your gym and most of all, for yourself. The emphasis for almost all fighters is to compete and see if they can't overcome their fears and limtations to win and achieve glory, fame and money even. Many idiots and 'tards make try to make the UFC into a bloodbath massacre like it was a gladiatorial match from Ancient Rome. This is not how things are intended to be. It was once a spectacle and now it is a true and legitimate sporting event. Are football players not athletes simply because they tackle, smash and knock down their oppoenents ?
> 
> Fighters are still martial artists. I'm sick of this antiquated Karate Kid 'Martial Arts should never be used for sports' mentality. Wrestling, BJJ, Kickboxing, Kempo, Vale Tudo, Pankration, Sambo...all of these disciplines are martial arts and fighters train in many of them. Fighters are both martial artists and athletes.



Well said.................


----------



## 47MartialMan

I agree, competition fighters are still martial artists. Yes, those fighters are tough. Yes, it is a contact event. I am saying that it is not really UF.


----------



## Kempojujutsu

That's B.S they bring Chris back. They might as well let Bobby stay.


----------



## Marginal

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So is this the reason we train-to prove our skills? to show them in such a spectative way?



Not all roads off the beaten path are dead-ends.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Marginal said:
			
		

> Not all roads off the beaten path are dead-ends.


Some can be worse and looking for a accident to happen.


----------



## Marginal

Some would argue that an increasingly removed from application style of practicing martial arts in the name of character improvement or whatever else is just such a road.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Marginal said:
			
		

> Some would argue that an increasingly removed from application style of practicing martial arts in the name of character improvement or whatever else is just such a road.


But such a road can get you killed if you are not cautious and hap-hazard.


----------



## Floating Egg

The idea that fighters are somehow corrupt martial artists or that martial artists that don't fight are somehow weaker than those that do, are two very divisive attitudes that ultimately accomplish very little if we're trying to have a dialog rather than a debate. 

If I have a concern about sport fighting, it's that many people seem to be confused about the differences between self-protection, combat, and fighting. The line seems to be frequently blurred and I think this is very dangerous. 

I'm interested in a certain kind of personal development that does not rely on competition with others as a central motivator; however this is one perspective among many, and while I understand the feelings of indignation toward sport fighting, I think it's important to recognize that we all follow our own path, and that there isn't a right or wrong answer here.


----------



## 47MartialMan

_The idea that fighters are somehow corrupt martial artists or that martial artists that don't fight are somehow weaker than those that do, are two very divisive attitudes that ultimately accomplish very little if we're trying to have a dialog rather than a debate_
Debate? I do not recall anything about sport fighters being corrupt. From my vp, I was just hacking on a name that seem surreal (Ultimate Fighting Reality Show-hmmn). 

_If I have a concern about sport fighting, it's that many people seem to be confused about the differences between self-protection, combat, and fighting. The line seems to be frequently blurred and I think this is very dangerous_. 
I like this, a great summary

_I'm interested in a certain kind of personal development that does not rely on competition with others as a central motivator; however this is one perspective among many, and while I understand the feelings of indignation toward sport fighting, I think it's important to recognize that we all follow our own path, and that there isn't a right or wrong answer here._
I dont recall that sport fighting was not a type of martial art. And everyone is enttled to their opinion and or path-provided that it doesn't harm those that do not want to be harmed.

I did enjoy your post...


----------



## 47MartialMan

_I don't know exactly what you are saying, but I think you are saying that Ultimate Fighting is not "real" fighting. In a sense that is true, but the modern UFC is not the same as when it first came to be_.
Yes

_Also you said you do not have to watch one in order to know. How can you base your opinion on something you have not seen?_ 
No, in complete statement I said:The reality of UF is that it is not so UF! I do not need to watch it do know this. Meaning if it were, people will get locked away.

As to my question:
_I think that it is over-hyped._
Yes...anything can be

And:
_... can one be considered a true martial artist to particpate and spectate this event?_
I was posting a general question for someone to respond. The question was not my opinion.

To which you had responded/answered:
_....these fighters are probably the most well rounded Martial Artists out there. So yes they are true martial artist to participate in these events. Most train several hours a day in boxing, BJJ, Muai Thai_
For which, I agree

Peace-


----------



## InvisibleFist

OMG!  Leben is back!!! It's like a bad dream.

 The fight tonight was decided before they ever stepped in the ring.  Josh apologized to Dante, he came from a place of weakness. Dante showed thick face, black heart...check him out meditating int the thunderstorm.


----------



## dsp921

It's total garbage that they let Leben back. If they want the guy to 
win why bother with the show at all, don't waste my time and just give
him a UFC deal. He breaks all kinds of rules, LOSES A FIGHT and is still on
the show, that's pretty lame. Busting up the house, whizzing on a bed, and
didn't he leave the grounds early on (I missed the first few shows)? Any
one of the those is enough to boot the guy. If they were going to bring
someone back it should have been the decision of Dana White, with input
from Couture and Liddell, Quarry shouldn't have had any say. Bringing someone
back is a bad idea and that fighter being Leben makes it even dumber. Maybe
in the future (if they have more shows) they can have alternates waiting 
to step in if someone gets hurt.   Didn't Quarry say he wanted to pick someone
that would keep a level head in the house?  Yeah, Leben's just the guy, he's
either busting the house up or crying, that's level-headed...
I'm pretty impressed with Deigo Sanchez. He might be the best fighter on 
the show. I'd like to see him fight Leben, he'd probably make him cry again.


----------



## 7starmantis

Leben coming back is not only good for ratings, but good for his team. He seems to be (how or why I dont know) a leader with those guys and a moral booster. I'm actually kind of glad he's back, with Bobby gone, Josh wont be so brave and it seems Leben is trying really hard to keep it civil. If he does what he said and just trains, shuts his mouth and fights who they say, it should be interesting. Who doesn't want to see Josh and Leben fight again? I do. Its not so unfair, the ankle injury sucks hardcore and he should be replaced, I do say its a little bit more about ratings, because Chris coming back will really help that department. 

 7sm


----------



## dsp921

Leben lost, Josh beat him in a unanimous decision. Leben should be out, end of story. Why should the injured fighter get to pick his replacement. That should
be the job of the coach and Dana White. What sport allows injured players to pick who goes in for them? I guess I have nothing against Leben, but it's
annoying to watch this show and see the rules repeatedly broken and there be no consequences. Why should one fighter be allowed to lose a fight and
still be in the running? I would have rather seen Southworth come back (if they really had to bring anyone back) because his fight probably should have at least gone 
to a 3rd round. Isn't it pretty unfair to all the other fighters that lost and have to stay eliminated? Is it fair to Liddell's team that they worked
hard, took out Leben (who is a leader) only to have him brought back? I think it's a little more "fair" for Team Couture than it is for Team Liddell.
I'd just rather see the show be a little more straight up about how things are going to go, that's all. Like I said there should be alternates in case of injury.
I've seen Koscheck beat Leben, I'd rather see Deigo Sanchez fight Leben. Diego looks to be the class of the field at this point. Neither fight was much 
of a challenge for him. I think he wins the middleweight division.


----------



## 7starmantis

Those are good points, its not neccessarily fair, but then nothing ever really is. It think its somewhat fair because it was in the case of an injury. If Team Liddell has an injury like that, they will be allowed the same thing. Plus, he got to pick from anyone, from either team. Its the same thing as most reality shows. Is it fair on Fear Factor that if only one person completes the first stunt they bring everyone back to compete for half the money? Its also a show that has to get ratings and continue for the length of the "season". Every fighter who has been eliminated was eledgable to return. 

 I can see your point however, and I do think Deigo has shown that he is a hell of a fighter. 

 7sm


----------



## Floating Egg

I guess I'm in the minority for actually liking Leben. He's been painted as a sort of villain, but his antics don't really phase me a great deal. I'm actually glad he's back, and it never occured to me that rules were being broken.


----------



## dsp921

It's not that I dislike Leben so much as I dislike the way the show is being handled. It is difficult to produce a show that is totally fair, but I think they could have done a little better job. I don't like the fact that Team Liddell has to give up his fighters because Team Couture was on a losing streak. I haven't thought much about a better plan, but I feel it's unfair to win a bunch of competions and fights and still lose fighters.
7sm, I see your point about Fear Factor, but at least they bring back everyone and the winners get something out of it. Even with that, I think if everyone but one fails the first event the winner should get all the money. When that guy fell into the fire on Survivor, he was off the show, they didn't bring back someone they had already voted out. That was OK by me. I think we can go back and forth forever and there is no perfect answer, I guess they'll have to do the best they can and I can watch or not...


----------



## clapping_tiger

> Leben lost, Josh beat him in a unanimous decision. Leben should be out, end of story. Why should the injured fighter get to pick his replacement. That should
> be the job of the coach and Dana White. What sport allows injured players to pick who goes in for them? I guess I have nothing against Leben, but it's
> annoying to watch this show and see the rules repeatedly broken and there be no consequences. Why should one fighter be allowed to lose a fight and
> still be in the running? I would have rather seen Southworth come back (if they really had to bring anyone back) because his fight probably should have at least gone
> to a 3rd round. Isn't it pretty unfair to all the other fighters that lost and have to stay eliminated? Is it fair to Liddell's team that they worked
> hard, took out Leben (who is a leader) only to have him brought back? I think it's a little more "fair" for Team Couture than it is for Team Liddell.
> I'd just rather see the show be a little more straight up about how things are going to go, that's all. Like I said there should be alternates in case of injury.
> I've seen Koscheck beat Leben, I'd rather see Deigo Sanchez fight Leben. Diego looks to be the class of the field at this point. Neither fight was much
> of a challenge for him. I think he wins the middleweight division.



I couldn't agree with you more. Everything you said here is pretty much what I was going to say. I really did think they would bring back a cut fighter instead of one that was eliminated in a match. Like I said earlier and as said above, they might as well just have Leban sign the contract right when they brought him back. How many chances can they give the guy?  I admit I am not a Leban fan, but come on........

Deigo is real good, I has an excellent chance to win the middleweight contract, he looked better that Leban did. The final match will probably be Leban and Deigo.  I also noticed the fight was over way before it went to the mat.  You could see it in Josh's eyes that he didn't have it. Also you could tell he didn't really want to fight, despite what he said pre-fight, how about all the excuses he was giving when they were trying to decide who was going to fight.  There are fighters like Forrest who are itching to fight, and that is how you should be. You should want to showcase your skills, after all that is what you are there for. I hope Forrest gets his chance next week, I like the guy,  he looks like he should put on a good fight.

I guess we will have to see if there is a second season, if they learned from this season's setbacks. I really do hope there is a second season. I went on to Spike tv's website and told them how much I enjoy the show and hope they bring it back. I suggest if you like the show to let Spike know so there is a better chance at a second season.


----------



## clapping_tiger

> Leben lost, Josh beat him in a unanimous decision. Leben should be out, end of story. Why should the injured fighter get to pick his replacement. That should
> be the job of the coach and Dana White. What sport allows injured players to pick who goes in for them? I guess I have nothing against Leben, but it's
> annoying to watch this show and see the rules repeatedly broken and there be no consequences. Why should one fighter be allowed to lose a fight and
> still be in the running? I would have rather seen Southworth come back (if they really had to bring anyone back) because his fight probably should have at least gone
> to a 3rd round. Isn't it pretty unfair to all the other fighters that lost and have to stay eliminated? Is it fair to Liddell's team that they worked
> hard, took out Leben (who is a leader) only to have him brought back? I think it's a little more "fair" for Team Couture than it is for Team Liddell.
> I'd just rather see the show be a little more straight up about how things are going to go, that's all. Like I said there should be alternates in case of injury.
> I've seen Koscheck beat Leben, I'd rather see Deigo Sanchez fight Leben. Diego looks to be the class of the field at this point. Neither fight was much
> of a challenge for him. I think he wins the middleweight division.



I couldn't agree with you more. Everything you said here is pretty much what I was going to say. I really did think they would bring back a cut fighter instead of one that was eliminated in a match. Like I said earlier and as said above, they might as well just have Leban sign the contract right when they brought him back. How many chances can they give the guy?  I admit I am not a Leban fan, but come on........

Deigo is real good, I has an excellent chance to win the middleweight contract, he looked better that Leban did. The final match will probably be Leban and Deigo.  I also noticed the fight was over way before it went to the mat.  You could see it in Josh's eyes that he didn't have it. Also you could tell he didn't really want to fight, despite what he said pre-fight, how about all the excuses he was giving when they were trying to decide who was going to fight.  There are fighters like Forrest who are itching to fight, and that is how you should be. You should want to showcase your skills, after all that is what you are there for. I hope Forrest gets his chance next week, I like the guy,  he looks like he should put on a good fight.

I guess we will have to see if there is a second season, if they learned from this season's setbacks. I really do hope there is a second season. I went on to Spike tv's website and told them how much I enjoy the show and hope they bring it back. I suggest if you like the show to let Spike know so there is a better chance at a second season.


----------



## 7starmantis

My only problem with bringing back a cut fighter is that they haven't spent all the time and effort training like the other guys have. Grant it, Leben was eliminated but he has spent the time and effort training and doing challenges that the cut fighters wouldn't have done. Would it be fair to toss in a cut fighter in the middle of the show? These are the fighters that made the cut, did the works, and shed the blood (in leben's case  ) so while it sucks to bring an eliminated fighter back, at least its one of the fighters that made the cut in the first place.

 Like DSP said, we will watch or not, fair or not.

 7sm


----------



## dsp921

I'd be surprised if bringing Leben back changes the outcome anyway. Koscheck already beat him and showed that Leben isn't at his best on the ground. Diego Sanchez is crazy good on the ground and Kenny Florian is a black belt in BJJ so I would guess his ground fighting is pretty good. Leben will get beat by whichever fighter he goes against next. Leben actually seemed humbled when he came back. I got the impression he wanted no part of Koscheck again when he was talking at the meeting to set up the fight. And after the show Sanchez put on I can't see him being too hot to fight him either. Looked like Diego wanted everyone to see that if they call him out they are going to have a fight on their hands. He could have submitted Josh R. a lot sooner than he did if you ask me.
I only hope that no one from the blue team has to go to the green team now.


----------



## InvisibleFist

Yeah,  I think the decision to bring back leben had to do more with TV than with fairness:  he's the show's villian, without him there's no conflict, no conflict, no drama.

 I agree that Dante is one hell of a fighter.  Once he's in there, he's downright frightening.  There's lots of others that we haven't seen yet, but right now he's my favorite to win.  Wouldn't be surprised if it came down to Dante vs. Leben.

 The southworth fight was disappointing.  The new rules (timed rounds, judges decision) just plain suck.  Lets face it, a judges decision is not a win for either side.


----------



## FearlessFreep

I watched a few minutes of the show a few nights ago.  Saw a fight with Southworth and another guy(went to the other guy, which seemed to be contriversial)  The fighting was sorta interesting but I also thought a bit boring (I don't know grappling so I can't see/appreciate the finer points of what all the hugging was about)

What really struck me about it was that it seemed very much like 'a soap opera guys don't have to be embarrased to watch'.  Some awfully immature, childish attitudes there.  Rather silly


----------



## dsp921

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> I agree that Dante is one hell of a fighter. Once he's in there, he's downright frightening. There's lots of others that we haven't seen yet, but right now he's my favorite to win. Wouldn't be surprised if it came down to Dante vs. Leben.


Who is Dante? Is that a nickname for one of the fighters? I think I'm missing something...


----------



## relytjj

I think he means Diego when he says Dante.


----------



## dsp921

relytjj said:
			
		

> I think he means Diego when he says Dante.


That's what I figured, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a fighter or something....

I think it'll be Koscheck and Sanchez in the finals.  Which is painful for me since I'm a fan of the standup striker style.


----------



## clapping_tiger

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I watched a few minutes of the show a few nights ago.  Saw a fight with Southworth and another guy(went to the other guy, which seemed to be contriversial)  The fighting was sorta interesting but I also thought a bit boring (I don't know grappling so I can't see/appreciate the finer points of what all the hugging was about)



Back in the "early" days, I was right there with you. I thought the groundfighting was boring and waste. But then you saw all these grappling guys beating the strikers. It totally changed the way you have to think about fighting, whether it is self-defense or sport. It showed us that to really be a good fighter you have at least make an attempt at becoming well rounded. Once I had an opportunity to try a little groundfighting (I am by far not good at it yet, I know what to watch for and how, but applying it seems to be my problem), you are able to see how difficult it really is. There is a lot of Jockeying for position and if you don't know what you are watching for, you miss a lot of the action and it can seem extremely boring. If you know what submissions and chokes people are going for, and the advantages or disadvantages of the positions, it opens up a whole new perspective on the MMA fight game. If you don't want to get involved in grappling, you should at least become aware of it. 




> What really struck me about it was that it seemed very much like 'a soap opera guys don't have to be embarrased to watch'.  Some awfully immature, childish attitudes there.  Rather silly



without a doubt.

By the way, sorry about the double post up there. I must have double clicked the submit button or something.


----------



## FearlessFreep

_
Back in the "early" days, I was right there with you. I thought the groundfighting was boring and waste._

Well, I think the same about basketball   What I mean is that every sport has it's mental game and it's tactics and strategy and if are new or an outsider than often it doesn't look that interesting.  I like like baseball and NASCAR, but I know the inner game more than basketball so to me baseball is 'tense' and basketball is not; not anything about the sports themselves, just my knowledge and understanding and therefore appreciation

_If you don't want to get involved in grappling, you should at least become aware of it._

Currently I'm focusing on getting as good as I can at one(striking) art; my interest in grappling is mainly 'how do I attack and defend against a grappler coming in.  Maybe eventually I'll have a chance to study it do it, but mostly I'm currently interested in how to fight against it


----------



## clapping_tiger

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _
> Back in the "early" days, I was right there with you. I thought the groundfighting was boring and waste._
> 
> Well, I think the same about basketball   What I mean is that every sport has it's mental game and it's tactics and strategy and if are new or an outsider than often it doesn't look that interesting.  I like like baseball and NASCAR, but I know the inner game more than basketball so to me baseball is 'tense' and basketball is not; not anything about the sports themselves, just my knowledge and understanding and therefore appreciation



Same with me. Funny thing is I like golf, and would rather watch golf than some of the other main stream sports on TV. 



> Currently I'm focusing on getting as good as I can at one(striking) art; my interest in grappling is mainly 'how do I attack and defend against a grappler coming in.  Maybe eventually I'll have a chance to study it do it, but mostly I'm currently interested in how to fight against it



That is also pretty much what I meant as far as being aware of it, is knowing basicly how to defend against it. Which of course is eaiser said than done.  I am not that good at grappling (quite honestly I prefer the ground and pound method of groundfighting  ), and it is not my main interest. But I did want to have a better chance at defending myself if I was taken down, or knocked down. I guess you have 2 basic roads you can look at as far as defending against a grappler. You can work on takedown defense, sprawling would be your most basic defense, or posting. Or you can work on learning submissions, or having them done to you so you know what's coming and can defend against them. It sounds like for what you are looking for is takedown defense. If you know any wrestelers you can work your takedown defense with them and all wrestlers know how to sprawl.


----------



## WilliamJ

And don't just have them show you, drill it. Let them try and take you down while you try to escape. That's the only way you will ever get good at sprawl and brawl.


----------



## InvisibleFist

relytjj said:
			
		

> I think he means Diego when he says Dante.


 Diego!  sorry, my bad.


----------



## triwahine

Deigo put on a show.  He wanted everyone to see that "pick me, and you will have a fight on your hands".  He pounded on Rafferty to prove a point.  He could have sumbitted him earlier, but just "played" with him for alittle bit.  It might come down to Diego and either Koschek or Florian.  

As for Forrest, I'm just waiting for him to get in the octagon.  He is ready and just wants to fight.  Looking forward to that one....

Somebody has to something about Sam.  He's a politician and really working on his "friendships" Team Courture.  He's almost too smart to do something like UFC when you listen to him speak.  Besides, how much fighting has this guy done?  His face doesn't shoe too much wear and tear like some of the others.


----------



## WilliamJ

Koschek has no skills beyond take downs. Florian and Diego can both smoke him. I think it's going to be Florian vs Diego at the end. Leben has a punchers chance, but no one else has the ground game to keep up with either of these two.

Which makes you wonder just how thorough they were in evaluating these guys for the show. It's pretty obvious some of these guys are beginners and some are basically ready for the big time. Before they do season 2 I think they really need to make sure the fighters skill levels are a little more even.


----------



## RSJ

That last fight blowed. Rafferty proved he didn't belong there to begin with. Diego's ankle pick was garbage. Diego should've eaten a knee for doing that so carelessly. He really hasn't shown anything like the superior skills everyone says he has. He tapped out two pretty much pure strikers. That's not hard to do if you have some wrestling takedown skills. Diego v. Leben....Leben by K.O. Thats' my prediction if that occurs. Karalexis was too much of a boxer and Rafferty was skeered. Leben isn't a boxer, he's a puncher that can sprawl and brawl. He stuffed pretty much all of Koscheck's takedowns for almost all the first round of that fight. Everyone says Kenny Florian is so magical. Yes, he's a NAGA and sport grappling champion. He's also small and his mettle is as yet unproven in MMA. Leben would have to get taken down to have any serious threat to him. To use his BJJ skills, Florian would have to take Leben down. I'm sure he's better than Diego at takedowns but can he eat punches ? Anyway, Rafferty sucked but full points to Diego for beating on him a little. That just disgusted me, Rafferty's behaviour.


----------



## Marginal

RSJ said:
			
		

> That last fight blowed. Rafferty proved he didn't belong there to begin with. Diego's ankle pick was garbage. Diego should've eaten a knee for doing that so carelessly.



Look at who he was fighting.


----------



## ppko

Just a little something for you guys to watch out for in April one legendary UFC fighter will be fighting one up and coming UFC fighter I can not release the names yet but this will promise to be a good fight, it will be live on the ultimate fighter.


----------



## clapping_tiger

I am assuming you are talking about the Ken Shamrock and Rich Franklin fight. Should be interesting. I am a Ken Shamrock fan, but I don't know if he has what it takes to get the championship anymore, so to get paid it think they are making him a stepping stone fighter. Still, fighting Ken is a good way to prove yourself.

p.s. why can't you release the names yet. The fight has been publicly announced?


----------



## ppko

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> I am assuming you are talking about the Ken Shamrock and Rich Franklin fight. Should be interesting. I am a Ken Shamrock fan, but I don't know if he has what it takes to get the championship anymore, so to get paid it think they are making him a stepping stone fighter. Still, fighting Ken is a good way to prove yourself.
> 
> p.s. why can't you release the names yet. The fight has been publicly announced?


I wasn't aware that the fight had been anounced, I didn't want to get any of these guys in trouble I know Rich, and some of the people that he trains with (he live and trains close to me)and I wasn't told not to release the info. but out of respect for him and the show I didn't want to get him in trouble. I believe that Rich will win this fight, although I like Mr. Shamrock ( have met him a few times) I don't believe that he will be able to hang with Rich.  An interesting thing about this fight is that they wanted Tito to fight Ken but Tito turned them dow they then called Richs mgr. and that is how this came about.


----------



## clapping_tiger

I don't blame you. In today's world of lawsuits it pays to be careful.  I didn't remember him offhand, but I looked up his fight record and he has fought in the UFC 3 times, and the UFC is the event of choice for the group I watch with (however, I would like to add Pride into that but not everyone wants to commit to another event, and I am not getting PPV by myself). Although offhand he didn't ring a bell I saw Pics from UFC 50 and I think I remember that fight. I did see that he beat Evan Tanner in UFC 42 by TKO, and anyone who beats Evan Tanner is one tough SOB in my opinion. Tanner is pretty tough. Still you can not count out Ken Shamrock just yet. He may be old (hey, Randy C. is 41 or 42), but he is still a tough competitor, and I have the feeling he has a few more wins in him. Just not championship wins. It will be fun to watch, and for once free!  What a treat to get to watch 2 UFC events in one month huh? I can't say who I think will win that fight, I just don't know enough about Rich Franklin to form an opinion.


----------



## Dronak

ppko said:
			
		

> in April one legendary UFC fighter will be fighting one up and coming UFC fighter . . . live on the ultimate fighter.



Really?  That will be cool.  Since the UFC is all PPV (right?) I've never seen any of it before.  Well, besides this show, but it's obviously not the same thing.  It'll be cool to see a fight on TV.


----------



## clapping_tiger

All major MMA competitions are PPV. I know that really sucks. I wish they would have smaller named fighters fight events on ESPN or SPIKE, and reserve the PPV for the championship and super fights, that way people who can't afford or don't want to get PPV can still see it. Sort of like Boxing and the Friday Night Fights. I think they would build a larger Fan Base and get better PPV ratings or whatever. But oh, well. If enough people hope on their email and shoot one off a quick request for these stations to do so, we may just see it happen. And from what I read, The Ultimate Fighter is a huge success for  Spike Tv. The Contender and The next great Champ tanked, but TUF is booming. Who knows, maybe Spike will see there is a demand for MMA competition and we just may see it happen. From what I read today, it looks like if there is not a season 2 I will be very suprised.


----------



## 7starmantis

Team Liddell having to give up another fighter kind of got to me this time for some reason. Before I wasn't to concerned, but its true that they are being penalized for winning. I'm also watching "The Contender" (Sly's boxing show) and I like the way they have it set up much better. If one team has more guys, the winning fighters sit out the team challenge to make it fair. Thats seems better in my opinion, of course it looks like they are also bringing someone back that was eleminated, I guess they do that simply for ratings and to fill the season.

 7sm


----------



## clapping_tiger

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Team Liddell having to give up another fighter kind of got to me this time for some reason. Before I wasn't to concerned, but its true that they are being penalized for winning. I'm also watching "The Contender" (Sly's boxing show) and I like the way they have it set up much better. If one team has more guys, the winning fighters sit out the team challenge to make it fair. Thats seems better in my opinion, of course it looks like they are also bringing someone back that was eleminated, I guess they do that simply for ratings and to fill the season.
> 
> 7sm


GREAT...........thanks for ruining it for me. I have the show TVio'd and have not seen it. I am just kidding, I did record it, but couldn't wait and watched the fight right before I came to work, good thing it was a short one. Now I get to go home and watch the drama. That sucks to hear that they had to give up another fighter.


----------



## RSJ

Well, that last fight proved the hype about Forrest. He appeared to be a very intelligent fighter in that he took his opponent down because Alex may have beaten him in a stand-up fight. Alex looked like a tough guy and a skilled striker who is willing to trade. If his ground work gets better, I think he might make it to the big show (PRIDE or UFC). 

On a side note, I don't believe Sam took stuff from the other fighters; rather, I think he took it from the office and maybe mentioned it briefly in passing to one of the assistant coaches. He was right about one thing; that was that he was willing to admit he took extra stuff and no one else would.


----------



## 7starmantis

Intellegent is not an adjective I would use to describe Forrest, but I can see your point. I think Forrest has a wild and dangerous style of fighting that will be easily exploited by much better fighters. 

 7sm


----------



## dsp921

Forrest is a madman. Did you hear them talking about about him getting his arm broken in an armbar and still not tapping, then he got up and knocked the guy out with is good arm? That's tough. It's too bad that he got that cut, that might force him off the show. If he goes, I'd guess Southworth will be back.
I agree with 7sm about Team Liddell losing fighters when they win. Maybe they should do something like once you fight you either go home or move to the next round and not compete in the challenges. Then go individual like Survivor. At least Florian took it well. I suppose when you come down to it, the eventual winner is going to have to fight everyone that hasn't lost, so maybe the team switching isn't such a big deal, at least on the fight level, still sucks for the challenges and the team bond.


----------



## clapping_tiger

dsp921 said:
			
		

> I suppose when you come down to it, the eventual winner is going to have to fight everyone that hasn't lost,.



Unless Chris Leban is in the finals...................


Tough or not, Forrest did learn his lesson by not tapping. He did say if it came down to it, now he would tap. It's not worth the time you lose in healing, same goes for Tim Silva. However, having the reputation of the guy who did not tap, got his arm broke, and then KO'd the guy, is quite an intimidation booster huh?


----------



## RSJ

Assuming that the middleweights are fighting next week and only them, then one would have to assume it's going to be Florian v. Koscheck or Leben v. Koscheck 2. I'd say my strong suspicion is on the former happening. Niether of these guys can apparently strike too well and Koscheck taking Florian down may be a very bad idea. I'm not sure what will happen. I doubt there will be a knockout or a submission; my guess is Florian by split desicion. Josh is probably going to attempt to sit on top of Florian like last time. Only this time, he's going to perhaps have a bit more difficulty. This probably will be another snoozefest. That is, unless there is some twist of fate to save us from boredom. I hope Josh gets called a ***** by Chuck, on a side note. That would make watching worth it.


----------



## Kempojujutsu

On one of the clips for next weeks show. There was a new twist or something different was going to happen. I am guessing, that each team will narrow it down to one fighter in each weight class. Meaning that: Florian vs. Leban and Sanchez vs. Koscheck. Why else would they keep making Liddell's team give up fighters. I also think they are trying to keep this Conture vs. Liddell rivary going.


----------



## Dronak

They keep making Liddell's team give up fighters because they keep wining and knocking out Couture's team members.  Had they not done so, one team would probably be completely gone by now.  I assume they figured that with the alternating picks, the teams should be roughly even and one side wouldn't constantly be eliminating the other side.  It seems like they want the teams to be even, for the physical challenges or whatever, so that's the way they decided to solve the problem -- the team with more fighters has to give up one to even things out.  I assume it would have been the same had the other team be winning all the time.  I think it was just unexpected that one team would dominate the other like they have been.  As others mentioned, this isn't completely fair and there are probably other ways they could handle it, but this is the method they chose.

I'm not sure I saw a twist being advertised, but I could have just missed it.  I guess we'll find out tomorrow.  The show has been interesting so far, so hopefully whatever they do will be good.


----------



## RSJ

Hmm...does this mean that...*gasp* there will be TWO fights in this new episode ?


----------



## clapping_tiger

could be. They are 1 fight, according to the shows schedule, behind because they did not air a fight when Leban went ballistic. Even if the taping of the show went as planned, they have to add in the extra fight somewhere.


----------



## 7starmantis

Well, Chris is gone


----------



## Dronak

Nope, it was only one fight, but I thought it was going to be two as well.  I'm not sure how many more shows they have scheduled for this series.  It sounds like there are only fights left, no more physical challenges and such.  Without out that stuff to take up time, I kind of expect that there will be 2 fights in one or more upcoming shows.  But who knows, maybe they'll still have 1 fight and pad out the hour.

Yes, Chris is gone for good now.  It seems unlikely that he'll get back in again by having another fighter get injured seriously enough to be unable to fight.  But I have to say, I think Kenny got lucky in that fight.  I'm not as skilled at judging these things as many of you probably are, but it looked to me like Chris owned Kenny.  Kenny got that one elbow to the face and opened up Chris badly enough that the doctor had to stop the fight.  I suppose that's the way things go, but I don't think he would have won the fight without that lucky shot.


----------



## 7starmantis

Yeah, I kind of agree with you, I think it would have gone a different way without the stop, but thats part of it I guess.

7sm


----------



## Marginal

I think that Leben probably would've taken the first two rounds, but Kenny seemed to be adjusting fairly well from one round to the next. He might've pulled off a win. Shame about the cut tho, 'cause it was one of the more entertaining fights...


----------



## Kempojujutsu

I agree Leban won the first round and probably would of won the second round. Kenny got a couple of good elbows in caught Chris. Had that not happen I believe Chris goes on to win the fight.


----------



## clapping_tiger

Chris showed a lot more in that fight than he did with Koscheck, that's for sure.  Kenny caught Chris with a few good shots though, but Chris controlled the fight in every way. The only way I could have seen Kenny pulling out a win, is if he could have taken Chris down and got a submisson, or by getting in a luck shot. Which he did. It just goes to show, that anything can happen in a fight. I thought for the most part it was an excellent fight, excpet for Kenny turning his back on Chris from time to time. 

I hope there are more fights in the next show, and they don't just show Chris crying for 45 min before the next match.


----------



## dsp921

I was wondering why Florian didn't take that fight to the ground. Isn't he a BJJ guy? I expected him to try to get Leben on the mat, especially since Koscheck beat him on the ground. I don't know that I'd call that elbow lucky. Leben left his face exposed and Florian planted a pretty hard strike. It's not like he was swinging wildly and caught him with it. Leben was definitely taking the fight to Florian, though. Kenny didn't look too banged up after the fight which was a little surprising, I thought more of Leben's punches were landing.
That was a pretty good fight, probably one of the better ones so far. 
What's the deal with a couple of fighters making it to the semi-finals without even fighting? Instead of having people fight twice, I think once you fight in the first round you move to the next round and don't fight again until then. That way all 8 will have won a fight to move on. I haven't seen much of it but it looks like that is what is happening on The Contender.


----------



## psi_radar

Yeah, the format may have been better as a round-robin type tournament. Eliminate some of the reality show crap and have two fights per show, extend the series if necessary. Sounds good to me, but they're going to do it however they feel is most sensible and profitable. 

Man, I really don't want to watch Chris Leben cry again. He did a lot better this time, but he kept himself too open. I've noticed this on a couple of fights on this show--there's a lot of poor defense and missed strike opportunities, especially in the clinch. Kenny saw an opportunity here and took it. I too was surprised he didn't go for the ground, especially since he lost the first round.


----------



## clapping_tiger

I didn't mean that his shot was lucky in a sense that it landed. But lucky for him that that one elbow did the damage it did, when it did it. I don't think Kenny would have Knocked Leban out, and he didn't seem to be able to take him down. I thought for sure he was going to take Leban down too. Leban has a real good sprawl, the one serious attempt I saw Kenny try was stuffed. He should have kept trying. It looked like he tried to go for a single leg or something, but that was ineffective too. Koscheck got Leban down because he kept trying to get him to the ground and didn't only attempt it once or twice.

Next week's fight between Diago and Koscheck will be a ground battle for sure. I think Diago will sub Koscheck.  I think one of these episodes we should see 2 fights in one episode. I think the live event is April 9th. There are only 2 more Monday's before then and there are going to be 3 more fights. 1 middleweight, and 2 light heavy.


----------



## Dronak

That's basically how I meant it, too, clapping_tiger.  Kenny got in a good shot when he had the opportunity to do so.  Good, that's what fighters should be doing, right?  But he was lucky that it did serious damage and came at a fortunate time.  Like others said, I think Chris won the first round and would have won the second as well, had that elbow strike not stopped the fight.  It did not look like Kenny was going to win that fight at all.  It was that one damaging elbow strike that caused the doctor stoppage.  Without that one strike, I doubt he would have won.

I have to say that it was interesting to see a fight that was primarily striking.  I think all the other fights have been on the ground most of the time, so this was a nice change.  Though I think they did say that Kenny had a background in BJJ, so I was a bit surprised that he stuck with the stand-up striking instead of trying to take the fight to the ground more often.

Others do have a point about some people making it this far without fighting, but I suppose under the show rules, there's not much to do about it.  It was kind of interesting that they decided to have teammates fight each other in order to guarantee one person from each team would be in the finals.  Considering that like half of one team got transfered over to the other, does that really matter at this point?  *shrug*  I think it's a bit odd to leave the aftermath of each fight until the following episode, but I guess that's one way for them to keep the viewers interested and tuning in.


----------



## dsp921

I don't think the "team" thing really matters either. Now that Chris is out, all the middleweights are Liddell's guys so the one guy from each team deal isn't really accurate. To win the contract you'd have to eventually go against a teammate anyway. And like Dana White said last night, in the UFC you have to be ready to fight anyone at anytime. 
I hope Forrest can fight, but on the other hand I wouldn't mind seeing Southworth fight Hoger, looks like they really don't like each other. But then, I don't think too many of the remaining guys like Sam....


----------



## triwahine

I sort of thought that they would go to teammate vs teammate format.  It kind of showed in the guys's faces during the previews.  How unfortunate, but I guess one of the ways to be fair about getting one of each team in the finals.  I think someone mentioned roundrobin format.  Not a bad idea or single elimination bracket.

As for the fight.  It was one of the more exciting events.  Plenty of movement and striking.  Chris got the first round, was controlling the second when BAM! in comes the elbow.  It only takes one good shot to end a fight.  Unfortunately, this one ties the doctor's hands and he had no choice but to call it.  Like Dana said, the safety of the fighters is first.  

Next week should be interesting.  Kos vs. Diego in a grappler's dream.  Hmmm...  Diego should have the upper hand, but as we saw with Chris and Kenny, anything can happen....


----------



## 7starmantis

Yeah, Leben doesn't have a real highly skilled style. He's a great fighter, but he did leave open room which is a huge mistake. Alot have done it, but I think Leben has (had) the most "messy" fighting style. I kind of liked him for some reason though, I think he reminded me of an old friend. Anyways, I'm really looking forward to this next fight, while this past fight was very intertaining, I'm really looking forward to seeing Diego hand Josh his ***. Who knows what will happen, but I think Diego has the fight. I'm not buying all the diego hype, but Josh K, just seems too limited in his fighting. 

 7sm


----------



## dsp921

I definitely agree that Leben has a wild style. Not a lot of technique that I can see, but he's real aggressive. Tough kid for sure. I can't say I'm real big on that foot stomping deal he likes so much. Too much time looking down to find a toe to step on, I wonder if that is what he was doing when Kenny clocked him. At first I thought that Leben would end up in the UFC soon after this show is done. But now I'm not so sure. From what I've seen he needs to clean up is technique and toughen up mentally. Although, based on the comments about how he grew up, I can see him being a little messed up.


----------



## Dronak

From what I remember seeing of Josh K. and Diego, I'm guessing that Diego should win.  When Josh K. beat Chris, it seemed to me that he did little besides get takedowns then ride him -- no major attacks or submissions once on the ground.  That's probably at least partly due to his wrestling background.  Diego has been good in his couple fights.  I think both ended in submissions, but in the last one he pummeled the other fighter before making him tap.  I think Dana and maybe others commented that the beating wasn't necessary, he could have gotten the submission much sooner.  I've been more impressed by Diego than Josh K.  But as that last fight showed, all it takes sometimes is one well-timed, damaging shot to win the fight.  I guess we'll see next week.


----------



## Floating Egg

What do you guys think of Sam as a person? It seems to me that he's being unfairly targeted by the other guys. Yes, he took the clothing, but I really don't think his intent was theft. Of course, you can't really argue about intent if you're not going to give a person a chance, so everyone sees it as a very black and white thing. He has the clothing, therefore he's a thief. Talk about not allowing for complexity.

I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt because of the way he handles the other guys in the house. He's not insulting like they are and he seems to be able to handle their personal attacks rather well. I think they'd get along with him a lot more if they just gave him a chance, but for some reason, right from the beginning, they couldn't stand the guy. They started making comments about how he smelled and how much food he ate right from the beginning, and then carried that over to his education and background of supposed wealth. Everything seems to be up for grabs with the guy. I'm surprised no one has made any comments about how he sleeps or whether or not he flushes the toilet when he's done.


----------



## Marginal

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of Sam as a person? It seems to me that he's being unfairly targeted by the other guys. Yes, he took the clothing, but I really don't think his intent was theft. Of course, you can't really argue about intent if you're not going to give a person a chance, so everyone sees it as a very black and white thing. He has the clothing, therefore he's a thief. Talk about not allowing for complexity.



I think that Sam's a jerk. Not so much for the beanies and rash guards, but for what he said after the challenge. "My strategy allowed us to win." (Didn't seem like much of a strategy really.) 



> I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt because of the way he handles the other guys in the house. He's not insulting like they are and he seems to be able to handle their personal attacks rather well. I think they'd get along with him a lot more if they just gave him a chance, but for some reason, right from the beginning, they couldn't stand the guy. They started making comments about how he smelled and how much food he ate right from the beginning, and then carried that over to his education and background of supposed wealth. Everything seems to be up for grabs with the guy. I'm surprised no one has made any comments about how he sleeps or whether or not he flushes the toilet when he's done.



By "they", you mean Southworth.


----------



## CMack11

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm really looking forward to seeing Diego hand Josh his ***. Who knows what will happen, but I think Diego has the fight. I'm not buying all the diego hype, but Josh K, just seems too limited in his fighting.
> 
> 7sm


I'm looking forward to Koscheck getting his *** handed to him also.  Something about that guy just rubs me wrong.

But I am buying into the Diego hype.  That guy's an animal.  I said after seeing his first fight that he would win the middleweight contract, and I'm sticking to it.

Hopefully he'll beat Koscheck because I'd be really interested to see a Josh/Kenny fight.

And I don't think you guys are giving Kenny enough credit.  He had a lot of heart.  Leben did own the first round, but Kenny never got shaken up and didn't do anything stupid.  He took a lot of shots from Leben and still hung in there and didn't panic or do anything stupid.

I think he knew he couldn't take a guy that much bigger than him to the ground (my guess is by fight time Leben probably had 20 pounds on him), so he was trying to hang in there and wait until Chris was tired to bring him down.


----------



## 7starmantis

CMack11 said:
			
		

> But I am buying into the Diego hype. That guy's an animal. I said after seeing his first fight that he would win the middleweight contract, and I'm sticking to it.


 Yeah, he very well could. It wouldn't bother me if he did, he has skill and heart it looks like too.



			
				CMack11 said:
			
		

> And I don't think you guys are giving Kenny enough credit. He had a lot of heart. Leben did own the first round, but Kenny never got shaken up and didn't do anything stupid. He took a lot of shots from Leben and still hung in there and didn't panic or do anything stupid.
> 
> I think he knew he couldn't take a guy that much bigger than him to the ground (my guess is by fight time Leben probably had 20 pounds on him), so he was trying to hang in there and wait until Chris was tired to bring him down.


 Thats a good point, Kenny stuck with it even getting dominated pretty good. He didn't look that beat up afterwards either. However, I think on weigh-in they were only a few pounds apart, am I wrong on that?

  7sm


----------



## CMack11

They were only 4 pounds apart (Leben 186, Kenny 182), but they were showing on the program where Leben was tipping the scales at ~195 about 24 hours before the fight.

I wouldn't know because I've never done it, but I've heard that when you cut weight like that you gain it back pretty quickly by rehydrating.

Also, they mentioned that Kenny was fighting well above his weight, that he was a true 155'er.

Maybe it was just a little  exaggeration about the 20 pounds.


----------



## KenpoPastor

IMHO - Kenny deserves full credit for beating Chris Leben.  Most people are angry that the wrong guy won with "punchers luck."  It was a perfecly timed and perfectly placed strike on an opening that Chris was giving up.  The effectiveness of elbows on the inside is underestimated and most people don't train to use them but they can be far more devestating than punches as this match clearly shows.  If this was boxing in which elbows are illegal then I would consider it a cheap victory because he would have won by cheating or by accident.  But in the UFC, elbows are still legal at least until someone discovers how to "stuff" a takedown with a side step and an elbow to the base of the skull.


----------



## KenpoPastor

My bad, the last elbow move I described that would "stuff" a takedown is illegal according to UFC rules (thank God because it could result in death) but what Kenny Florian did was perfectly OK.

_don


----------



## clapping_tiger

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> IMHO - Kenny deserves full credit for beating Chris Leben.  Most people are angry that the wrong guy won with "punchers luck."  It was a perfecly timed and perfectly placed strike on an opening that Chris was giving up.  The effectiveness of elbows on the inside is underestimated and most people don't train to use them but they can be far more devestating than punches as this match clearly shows.  If this was boxing in which elbows are illegal then I would consider it a cheap victory because he would have won by cheating or by accident.  But in the UFC, elbows are still legal at least until someone discovers how to "stuff" a takedown with a side step and an elbow to the base of the skull.



I didn't get the impression that anyone is upset that Kenny won. As a matter of fact most are probably happy with it. Leban lost once and should not have been there in the first place. And true, an elbow can strike with the same force as a baseball bat, but I think the comments were mostly about how you can't really count anyone out of the fight until it's over. Chris Leban was dominating the fight and looked to be on his way to a decisive victory. Kenny caught him with the elbow and ended the fight. However, the elbow did not seem to effect Leban in a way that would have knocked him out. He was not dazed or hurt, just cut pretty bad. If the elbow would not have done the physical damage it did, I think the fight would have turned out different. That's why originally when I said it was a lucky shot, I didn't mean that because it landed and it wasn't something Kenny was shooting for, but rather that it cut Leban and ended the fight. Personally I am happy Leban lost, and I hope Southworth loses too. He seems to be a good fighter, but he lost before. I think once your out, your out. No coming back, so I just hope Forrest can fight and if he can't I hope Southworth gets beat.


----------



## Shogun

I cant stand Diego. overhyped, because he fought in KOTC, and has a good record. Kenny, I believe, is 1-1. not too experienced, but damn good at jiu jitsu.

 I like chris, but I wanted kenny to win all along. he is almost 100% jiu jitsu, and you just dont see that anymore. I hope Koscheck slams diego on his head, then Kenny makes koscheck say "uncle".

as for Light heavyweights, I think since Alex S. is gone, I would be happy if everyone's favorite, Sam Hoger, took the victory. Forrest is tough. He tapped Ebenezer Fontes Braga.

I really want to see Sam tap out Bobby though. dream come true.


----------



## JDenz

Hey if anyone is interested I posted the results of the semi's I left it in another thread so you wouldn't look at it on accident.  peace


----------



## 7starmantis

That was a good fight. Diego ruled the fight, had intensity, was agressive, went for techniques, was actively trying to win. Josh did a great job of keeping himself from being tapped, but not much else. Man, did you see his forehead?? I'm *so* glad Josh is gone! It was a good fight, Josh did better than I expected, but he didn't really do much of anything, he has a few really nice takedowns, but then what?

  7sm


----------



## JDenz

He did okay on the feet compared to the last time he fought.  He got alot better he is going to be a stud at 185 if he sticks around.


----------



## RSJ

That was a pretty good bout. I agree with the split desicion because Koscheck did just enough to make sure it wasn't unanimous by scoring takedowns, getting out of submissions and landing some hard shots. Finally, Diego went up against someone with somewhat of a ground game and good takedowns. You know, he seemed to live up to all of the hype. He seemed to take all the clean shots with little effect. Koscheck did show he could do more than one thing and I admire his toughness for sticking it out in a guillotine for those last ten or fifteen seconds of round one. If you've ever been guillotined, you know it works and fast. These days, I hear he wants to break into the welterweight division as opposed to middleweight. I hope he does make it. As much as I initially didn't like him, I have come to realize he's actually a vastly improved fighter.


----------



## JDenz

Ya his striking is much improved another year or two and he will be tough.  He needs to break the instinctive shot when he is in trouble.  Not good to duck your head into guys that knee.


----------



## TCA

I believe Josh fought out of his element.  He is a world class wrestler but not a grappler.  His take downs were good but, once on the ground, he didn't know what to do.


----------



## clapping_tiger

Deigo was close to getting the sub, I think it was at the end of the first round, He had the choke sunk in, but it was just too late. Kos, had time on his side there and lucky for him the buzzer went off, or I think he would have gone out. I was hoping Deigo would have got the triangle that would have been sweet.  I don't agree with the split. So what if Kos too him down a few times, once he was there he did nothing. When Deigo was down he was always working for a sub, or pretty much got up at will. You may be able to ride a striker, but not a grappler, and that showed. All he showed in his stand up is he can take more than he gives. True, Josh looked better here than he did vs. Chris, but I think he got owned. But I give him a lot of credit for going the distance, that in itself is pretty tough.


----------



## Gin-Gin

RSJ said:
			
		

> That was a pretty good bout. I agree with the split desicion because Koscheck did just enough to make sure it wasn't unanimous by scoring takedowns, getting out of submissions and landing some hard shots. Finally, Diego went up against someone with somewhat of a ground game and good takedowns. You know, he seemed to live up to all of the hype. He seemed to take all the clean shots with little effect. Koscheck did show he could do more than one thing and I admire his toughness for sticking it out in a guillotine for those last ten or fifteen seconds of round one. If you've ever been guillotined, you know it works and fast. These days, I hear he wants to break into the welterweight division as opposed to middleweight. I hope he does make it. As much as I initially didn't like him, I have come to realize he's actually a vastly improved fighter.


I agree, but although he has improved & he certainly made Diego "work for it," I believe he needs to mature a bit more (emotionally) in order to become a great fighter.  The same could be said for Chris Leben, IMO.


			
				TCA said:
			
		

> He is a world class wrestler but not a grappler. His take downs were good but, once on the ground, he didn't know what to do.


It certainly looked that way to me too.


----------



## triwahine

I will say that I was impressed with the way Chris Leben came back in to talk with Kenny, congratulate him, and say how proud he was....  I think that shows that Chris is starting to mature just alittle.  If he keeps improving his attitude, he'll be back.  I think he could go far is he develops better character, matures some more, and keeps working on all his skills.  Lots of power, now he just needs maturity on his side.

As for Diego and Josh.  That was pretty good fight.  Three rounds and split decision.  Josh did well with takedowns, but made no real attempt to improve his position or to gain better control.  Diego worked the entire time.  To see the triangle would have been nice.  The guillotine looked good, but Josh had time on his side for that one.  Sure was close.....

Can't wait to see who "Sam the Politician" fights.  Does anyone know if he can fight?  I'm serious on that one.  Haven't seen him do anything yet.  What do you think?  Will Forrest be cleared to fight?


----------



## clapping_tiger

We already know who Sam will fight. It will be either Forrest or Southworth. Sam will have to fight the other light heavy from Team Liddell. I haven't seen anything from Sam either, who knows what to expect from him. :idunno: But it's hard for me to be on his side after the stuff they showed of him. I still think he may have stole that stuff, seems kind of weird that people were missing what he had extra of.  I hope Forest is cleared to fight, I didn't get to see the show yet, but I watched the fight this morning so I didn't see anything they showed on Forrest's cut. It will be a bummer though if Southworth gets a shot. I have said it before, and still feel the same way. Once you lose your out, no do overs.................


----------



## clapping_tiger

This Sucks!!!!  I was just on The Ultimate Fighter site and here is the card. It would be nice if they televised the preliminary bouts   I wanted to see Nate Quarry fight. Not to mention to see if Jason Thacker (he's the one who's bed Chris urinated on right?) gets a little revenge for the "spritzing".  Hopefull they show highlights from the Prelims.

TUF Finale Fight Card
Middlweight Final
Diego Sanchez vs. Kenny Florian

Ken Shamrock vs. Rich Franklin

*Non-televised preliminary bouts:*
Josh Koscheck vs. Chris Sanford
Chris Leben vs. Jason Thacker
Lodune Sincaid vs. Nate Quarry
Alex Karalexis vs. Josh Rafferty

more fights to be announced soon


----------



## 7starmantis

That does suck! I would almost rather see all those non-televised than see the few televised! 

7sm


----------



## triwahine

I thought Lodune was a light heavyweight and Nate was a middleweight.  How can the two be in prelims, unless Lodune lost 20+ pounds or Nate gained some....  Interesting....


----------



## Kempojujutsu

*Non-televised preliminary bouts:*
Josh Koscheck vs. Chris Sanford
Chris Leben vs. Jason Thacker
Lodune Sincaid vs. Nate Quarry
Alex Karalexis vs. Josh Rafferty

Of these fights I think the last two fights would be worth watching. First two are going to be done very fast. Probably will not last 1 round.

Did anyone hear Bobby Southworth when they were back inside the dressing rooms. He said that decision was B.S to Josh. I agree on the split decision, but one judge had it 30-27 for Josh. Meaning he thought Josh won all three rounds. That was crazy.


----------



## clapping_tiger

triwahine said:
			
		

> Can't wait to see who "Sam the Politician" fights.  Does anyone know if he can fight?  I'm serious on that one.  Haven't seen him do anything yet.  What do you think?  Will Forrest be cleared to fight?



 :whip: Sometimes I can be so stupid. You meant who as in Southworth or Forrest. I am a moron sometimes.



I know 30-27 for Koscheck was out there. I felt Diageo Took the 1st and 3rd for sure, the only round I could see going one way or the other would have been the 2nd. One would assume that the Judges are well versed in MMA, but sometimes you wonder.......................
I think the other 2 judges were more on the money with a 29-28 Diageo.


----------



## Dronak

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> I was just on The Ultimate Fighter site and here is the card.
> 
> TUF Finale Fight Card
> Middlweight Final
> Diego Sanchez vs. Kenny Florian
> 
> Ken Shamrock vs. Rich Franklin
> 
> *Non-televised preliminary bouts:*
> Josh Koscheck vs. Chris Sanford
> Chris Leben vs. Jason Thacker
> Lodune Sincaid vs. Nate Quarry
> Alex Karalexis vs. Josh Rafferty
> 
> more fights to be announced soon



Interesting.  Maybe I should be keeping an eye on that site, too.  So this is their plan for the live show on April 9th?  I knew they were planning on having the two finals then.  I think yesterday's show hinted at the Shamrock/Franklin match and from talk here, I knew to expect that, too.  I didn't realize that they were going to have additional fights leading up to those three though.  It's like they're making it a full-blown event.  I guess that's good, but I didn't expect to see the eliminated fighters again.  (Well, we're still not, but you know.)  It is too bad they can't show all of those matches on TV.  The "dark" fights probably would be good to watch, too.

As for yesterday's episode, it was good to see that there wasn't immense drama around Chris' loss.  After he pulled himself together and calmed down, he went back to congratulate Kenny, which was nice to see.  It seems like he is maturing through his experience here.  If he can keep himself together emotionally, he'll probably be in great shape.  I thought they might be having two fights in this show since they started the Diego/Josh fight rather early, but now we know why -- it went the full 3 rounds, all 15 minutes.

I thought it was a good fight.  I expected more ground fighting than there was though.  There was a lot of stand-up striking.  Apparently neither really wanted to play the other's game and was trying to avoid going into the other's ground game.  It looked like Diego did have a submission locked in at the end of one round, but Josh was saved by the bell.  Diego seemed to do a lot of work from the ground when he was taken down, but it looked like Josh didn't do much from the top again.  I suspect this is because his strength and background is in wrestling, not submissions or ground fighting.  So after he scores a take-down and gets a mount and control, he doesn't have enough knowledge and/or experience to know how to really work it to his advantage.  I expected Diego would win, but I thought it would be more like his other fights, by a submission.  I didn't think they'd end up fighting the full 3 rounds.  

I'm glad to see Josh go now, too.  When he was talking about how glad he was that Chris Leben was gone, I was thinking that he should enjoy it while it lasted, because he was going to be the next one out.  I'm hoping that Forrest has healed well enough to fight because I don't really want to see Bobby in there again.  I guess we'll see next week what the commission decides.  Next week should be good since there will be two fights.  I'm looking forward to it and the live conclusion; that ought to be good.  Plus I haven't seen Ken Shamrock since he left the WWE (previously WWF) and pro wrestling so it should be interesting to see him in a MMA match.


----------



## JDenz

Ya you can check out the TUff thread if you want spoilers for the show.  I have had the finals posted on there for awhile.  I am pretty sure they are going to do a higlights of the dark matchs at least.  I bet we will see alot of them because Diego is going to kill Kenny on the feet.  He better be careful playing on the ground with him though.  There is a reason Rafferty didn't pick him.


----------



## 7starmantis

Looks like the finals will be some pretty good fights. I'm not too upset about who is fighting now.

7sm


----------



## JDenz

=-)


----------



## Dronak

Yup, the finals are set now.  Hopefully they'll be good matches.  The addition of a pro match to the final show should be really good.  I took a look at an online TV schedule and it says the final episode is 2.5 hours.  Do you think they'll only show those three fights (two finals plus the pros)?  They did say that the fighters would go home to train with their own trainers now before the finals, so if cameras go with them, I suppose they could get a bunch more material to pad out the show.  But if they're sticking with mostly fighting, I'd think they'd need more than 3 fights in a 2.5 hour show.  No?


----------



## clapping_tiger

I doubt it will go the full 2.5 hrs, but it may be close to that. If they only show 3 full fights, and if those 3 all go the distance. That's 45 min, plus add in updates on all the fighters and what the ones eliminated have done. Maybe show highlights of the undercard fights, what the UFC is all about. Oh wait..... add in commercials and I guess you may have 2.5hrs huh? I look forward to it though. I am also having the Chuck and Randy fight the weekend after, so I will be on UFC overload this month. I am excited. I imagine they will be building up that fight tremendously on the 9th. I wouldn't be surprised if the next PPV has their highest PPV numbers to date. With people who have been watching the show, I am sure they have pulled in quite a few more UFC fans. Basically you could look at it as a 2.5 hour UFC infomercial.


----------



## dsp921

I checked the TV listings and out here and Spike has TUF on all day. Looks like they are going to run all the episodes before the live finals. Good chance to catch up on any missed shows.


----------



## Gin-Gin

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Looks like the finals will be some pretty good fights. I'm not too upset about who is fighting now.7sm


Last night's fights were pretty good.  Too bad they had to stop the fight between Sam & Forrest; I would like to have seen them go the distance (or a knockout).   Plus, I was impressed with how Stephan got out of the choke that Mike put on him--I heard the gurgling sounds & thought it was over (as did Liddell & Couture).  Props to Stephan for coming back to win the match with the arm bar!  :ultracool  

Yes, I'm also looking forward to the final fights.  Both matches should be good.


----------



## Dronak

Wow, they're showing it all day?  I guess they are running a marathon of the series as prep for the final episode.  I plan to be at the cherry blossom festival Saturday afternoon though, so I'm going to miss it.  I may tape the final episode though, just in case I don't get back in time.  And that way I can save it, too, if I want to.  I guess they could use it as a huge ad for the UFC and to at least some degree they probably will.  I guess even if there are only 3 fights and highlights of the undercard matches, it should be an interesting and good show.

About the fights, yeah, Sam and Forrest probably could have gone on longer.  But like someone said (I forget already) holding both hands up along the sides of your head to protect your face isn't an intelligent defense.  I can see that; simply covering won't really help you fend off the attack or lauch a counter-attack of your own.  At that point, I suppose the ref has to stop the fight in order to protect the fighter taking the beating.  I thought Stephan was going to tap to that choke, too, just like everyone else.  When he started turning red and making choking noises, I figured it was all over.  But somehow he managed to muscle out of it.  Pretty impressive.  It's almost too bad Mike couldn't hold out those last few seconds of the round because it was a good fight.  But I think they said Stephan had Mike in a triangle choke and then sunk the arm bar so he was pretty much forced to tap out.


----------



## Kempojujutsu

I was doing some research, checking out Straight Blast Gym. I didn't know that both Forrest Griffith and Nathan Quarry are both instructors associated with SBG. Was also checking out Matt Thorton's tapes today. It has Nathan doing some Greco wrestling drills with Randy Conture.


----------



## JDenz

Ya should be a good show I am pretty sure that they are not going to show the undercard to much so you buy the season one DVD of UFC.  It might be tough to get even those three fights on TV.  They usually run a commerical after the intros and after every round.  Plus they will have an intro before the fights and a recap of the path the fighters took probably.  Between that and advertising the Chuck and Liddell fight you won't get to much but you get what you pay for.


----------



## Dronak

The show's not over yet, but it seems like they're not even highlighting the undercard matches.  It sounded like a lot of review of the fighters in the finals and their path to the finals, so honestly, I wasn't paying close attention through those parts.  I did of course watch the fights and they were good.  I really liked the one between Forrest and Stephan in particular.  I won't mention the results though in case others reading now haven't watched the show yet.  The Shamrock/Franklin match is coming up next, so I'm going to watch that now.


----------



## kempo108

i thought they would at least show highlights of the undercard. the Forrest and Stephan fight was really good. but i thought Stephan should of won. anyone know the results of the undercard fights?


----------



## JDenz

Leben and Koschek won just by the way the looked and the way there friends were talking about them.  They want you to buy the DVD my man.


----------



## psi_radar

Holy crap. What a war that was between Forrest and Stephan. Was it just me, or did Stephan clearly win the first two rounds? I'm glad they both won a contract or my tv would have been pelted with popcorn.


----------



## JDenz

Ya did Shammy look old and washed up or what.


----------



## JDenz

April 9, 2005 
by Josh Gross (joshg@sherdog.com)

LAS VEGAS, April 9  There are four remaining fighters eligible to win three-year UFC contracts. But that didnt prohibit the 12 other men on the first ever cast of The Ultimate Fighter from showing what they could do in front of a Las Vegas crowd. Six fights, five finishes and a whole lot of finished drama  this is the TUF under card. 

The final dark bout was also the under cards longest, as Sam Hoger (5-0-0) outworked Bobby Southworth (8-4-0) to win a unanimous three-round decision. Judge Glenn Trowbridge had it 30-28, while Jeff Mullen and Tony Weaks scored it 29-28. 

Both Hoger and Southworth were cautious in the opening period and if a round could have gone to Southworth it was this one. Periods two and three clearly belonged to Hoger, the least-liked fighter among the 16 who lived in the house. Much of that derision came from Southworth, who routinely made it a point to squabble with the 24-year-old Pat Miletich-trained fighter. 

A Southworth low blow led to the best exchange of the second round. But with Hogers lack of power and Southworths inability to land damaging shots, the crowd continually voiced its displeasure, showering the small room with jeers. 

Aware that hed need a stoppage or overwhelming round to win the fight, Southworth fired out of the gate in the third periods first moments. The 35 year old from Santa Cruz, Calif. put Hoger on the mat for the first time in the fight. But little happened there. 

A minute later it was Southworth on his back. Hoger worked from the guard, yet seemed content to control and wait for the clock to wind down. At fights end, Hoger stood with his hands raised and ran to the opposite side of the Octagon. Southworth followed but the bell sounded by the time he reached him. An overjoyed Hoger smiled a wide smile and relished his victory. 

TUFs most controversial if not popular cast member Chris Leben (17-1-0) stopped Canadas Jason Thacker (4-2-0) with strikes on the ground 1:35 of round one. 

On paper, Leben was far too much for Thacker. But the 29-year-old from Whonnock, British Columbia, requested the bout after the embarrassment of seeing Leben urinate on his bed during the shows debut. After the fight, the 24-year-old Leben publicly apologized, saying the incident is a major reason hes given up drinking. 

For Thacker, the first fighter to be dismissed and only one of two not to exit by way of fighting, the chance to compete was a welcome one. Twice before the opening bell he aggressively moved towards Leben only to be stopped by Nevada State Athletic Commission inspectors. 

He could have used them a few moments later after walking into a Leben right straight. 

Thacker stumbled backwards but was lucid enough to pull guard. He remained game from the bottom, yet offered little in the way of escapes or offense. With little to worry about, Leben found leverage from various positions and pounded away until referee Herb Dean was forced to halt the contest. 

I kinda got jacked on the show, a less-than-gracious Leben said after the dominating performance. I had that cut. I had Josh The Blanket on top of me. I want redemption. 

Lebens nemesis on the show, Josh Koscheck (5-0-0), manhandled Chris Sanford (5-1-0), winning by knockout 4:21 of the opening round after a heavy downward right from half-guard crashed into the middleweights chin. 

Sanford, like Thacker, was dismissed before getting a chance to fight  and he surely hoped to put on a better performance. In Koscheck he had a big challenge on his hands. The most athletic member of the 16-man cast and a multiple-time NCAA All-American wrestler, Koscheck is capable of putting most men on the mat if he wants them there. 

Early on, it appeared he was eager to stand and strike with the 37-year-old Sanford, a capable striker out of the Cesar Gracie camp. Absorbing a sharp overhand right, however, quickly changed his mind. 

He caught me with a good, hard hook, Koscheck said. I was like, whoa. 

From there it was takedowns and ground-and-pound. Koscheck, 27, worked to pass the guard, and he did before Sanford created space while working for a heel hook. It was easily countered and the wrestler started to score with punches and elbows. 

Sanford worked to get back to his feet, but half-standing against the fence only set up a perfect high-elevation Koscheck double-leg slam. It was the nights first big takedown and the three-quarters filled arena exploded. 

The end came suddenly. From half-guard, Koscheck snapped a right hand that connected perfectly. Sanford was out, but referee Steve Mazzagatti didnt notice before Koscheck landed five unanswered shots. 

Fighting for the first time since being picked for TUF, Gresham, Oregons Nate Quarry (12-1-0), victim to a nasty ankle injury during training that ended his competition, stopped Lodune Sincaid (15-3-0) with strikes 3:17 of round one. 

It was a thorough performance for the middleweight. Quarry, whos helped UFC light heavyweight champion Randy Couture prepare for next weekends bout versus Chuck Liddell, looked sharp, peppering Sincaids head with almost anything he wanted. 

I wanted to show why I was there, why I was picked, he said afterwards. 

He did just that, countering a Sincaid overhand right with a straight punch of his own. Quarrys best blow of the bout, a body shot that ripped into 31-year-old Sincaids midsection, gave way to the finish. 

As soon as I landed the body shot I looked into his eyes and I saw he was fading fast, the 33-year-old Quarry said. 

Sincaid covered and absorbed multiple punches and kicks before referee Big John McCarthy jumped between the two fighters. The ending was somewhat surprising in that both men remained in their feet  a finish rarely seen in mixed martial arts. 

Despite competing at light heavyweight during the taping of TUF, Mike Swick (7-1-0), who came up short against Stephan Bonnar in the semifinals, put his stamp on the middleweight division by putting the stamp on Alex Schoenauer (10-1-0), knocking the taller man out 20 seconds after the opening bell. 

Swicks speed was the difference  for each Schoenauer strike, he offered three. Two left hook-right straight combos stunned the 28-year-old Argentinean. As he stumbled back-first towards the cage Swick, 25, unleashed an awkward overhand right. The shot met its mark and Schoenauer, who met his fate on the show by tapping to Forrest Griffin, slumped to the canvas. 

I got to set the pace, Swick declared after the impressive showing. This is my division. 

Two men who were one-and-done on TUF fights battled to a quick finish in front of a still-filtering-in Cox Pavilion crowd when welterweight Alex Karalexis (5-0-0) stopped Josh Rafferty (7-4-0) at the 1:40 mark of round one. 

Karalexis countered a Rafferty guillotine to drop hard rights and lefts on the Cincinnati, Ohio product. The two briefly separated before Karalexis, training out of Las Vegas by way of Boston, dove back into the 24-year-old Raffertys guard. 

It was then that Karalexis, perhaps the smallest fighter to compete at middleweight during the show, dropped the fight-changing punch. He looked to referee Steve Mazzagatti to jump in, but when the referee didnt move Karalexis hammered home additional shots. 

His eyes rolled in the back of his head and I told him he was out, said the 27-year-old Karalexis.


----------



## dsp921

Diego sure looked good last night. It kind of makes me wonder just how good Koscheck is, Josh went the full 3 rounds and lost a split decision, everyone else Deigo fought didn't last 2 minutes with him. I think Deigo could be the real deal, Florian is a BJJ BB and Diego had no problem with him on the ground.
That fight with Forrest and Stephan was awesome, I had no clue who was going to win that thing while waiting for the judges decision. It looked like they both landed some bombs. I need to watch it again but during the fight it seemed like Stephan landed a couple more strikes, but Forrest did better in the clinches and on the ground. That had to be the best fight I've ever seen, I don't know if I could have watched another round, I was exhausted just sitting there. I'm glad Forrest won, nothing against Bonnar but Forrest is just such a character and has a cool attitidue toward the whole thing, it looks like he really enjoys getting hit, the harder the better. Giving Stephan a contract was the right thing to do, those two guys put on a hell of a show. I do think they took some of Forrest's thunder by doing it so soon after the fight. They should have let the winner have his moment of glory, then maybe bring Stephan out and announce the contract at the end of the broadcast.
JDenz, thanks for the dark match update, by the looks of Leben and Koscheck during the broadcast I thought they might not have actually fought, and judging from the report, they didn't.
Looking forward to TUF 2....


----------



## JDenz

Josh is a takedown wizard.  I always thought I was okay he probably forgot more then I never knew you really don't get a feel for how fast he is on Tv.


----------



## FearlessFreep

Last night I saw a fight between Griffen and Bonnar(sp?) and I must say I found it pretty disapppointing, from a Martial Arts point of view (although not as much as earlier fights)   Most of  the fight's I'd managed to catch, when I managed to at all, seemed to be maybe 20-30 second o trying to punch each other until one could grab the other and then there was a bunch of ground wrestling which, frankly, I find a bit boring.  At least Griffen and Bonnar managed to stay on their feet most of the time, or get back there.

What disappointed me from a Martial Arts perspective is how very little, or very poor, martial arts skill they seemed to use.  It seemed to be little more than a boxing match with smaller gloves where you were allowed to kick (but little was done) and could wreslte if you got the chance.  I now know why the fights do go to the ground; bad technique.  From how I've been taught, at least, power comes from executing technique properly and quickly and proper and powerful technique requires balance and stability.  Balance requires you to keep your back straight, your shoulders square, and your head up.  What I saw was a lot of techqniques thrown from off-balance positions and a lot of punches that were thrown, especially in close, without putting body mass and hip movement into them.  *Especially* when on the ground it seemed like the punches were being thrown just with arm strength; not stabilizing the body and getting full mass into it.

I could tell off the bat that they did not respect the ability to kick.  They set up too close, just barely beyond fist range which was well within kicking range.  If they expected that the other person would and could kick them hard, the would not have been so close.  What it seemed to me from this was that the few kicks thrown came in low, below the ability to see well or parry much , but also not with a lot of authority or power.  Yeah, a few kicsk actually got up, but they didn't seem to be thrown very well.

Anyway, what also struck me was the lack of defense and lack of counter movement in the striking/standup game.  It seemed to be mostly "I'm going to get in and try to punch you more/harder than you do to me" and when they came in, the opened up their hand position and had very little defense.  There seemed no attempt to use hand blocks to block the others defense, and no attempt to work both offense and defense simulataneously, such as to block with one hand while punching with the other.  No attempt to counter an attack by defending it and striking back because the opponent had opened themselves up.  No attempt to use footwork to bypass or sidestep the attack and come back once the attacker is out of good defensive position.  For something labelled a "Martial Art" is seemed pretty one dimensional and unskilled.

And that's when I noticed the takedown.  What appeared to me to happen in most cases is that a person would defensively duck their head and get their head and shoulders forward, which caused a lot of problems.  First off, it's awfully hard to strike from down there in that position.  Secondly, it got the person off-balance, making it really hard to strike 'well', but mostly, it got the person forward and off-balance and in close to the opponent, making it pretty straightforward to grab them and take them to the ground.  That's why I thought, and said "ah hah! lack of good defensive technique leads to being in an easy position to take own, and since it's legal, they do"  If you can direct a person's head, you can direct their body, and if they put their head down for you, well...their body will easily follow.  

Anyway, for something billed as "Mixed Martial Art" I found it very disappointing.  I cannot comment on the ground work (other than that it seemed like punches from that position were not very authoritative and I'm thinking it's because the body position did not allow full hip and body mass motion to get more power into the punches) but the stand up/striking portion did not seem like much of a 'martial art' as it seemed fairly one dimensional and short on technique/skill of what I would consider important in martial arts and important in fighting period.

----
Personally, I was highly suspicious about the results.  I remember watched the TKD matches in the Olympics and it seemed like the announcers were really trying to hype the match much more than what was actually going on.  I did not find the match to be nearly exciting as the breathless hyperbole from the announcers wanted to make it.  I thought that the guy with (black and) green trunks fairly obviously dominated the other guy.  I was surprised that the announcers seemed to be saying it was so even and got real suspicious when the announcers started talking about 'two contracts being awarded'.  When  the match ended and they said that they just decided to give another six figure contract to the 'loser', my first thought was "oh, come on!  You don't make business decisions like that on the spur of the moment, you planned this from some time ago, and the announcers tipped it"


----------



## FearlessFreep

I also managed to catch a move last night between Liddell and some dude "Tiger" White.  Although they were more skilled on their feet and in their offensive attacks, a lot of it seemed te same; not a lot defensive hand or foot technqiues and people went down because of bad defensive or overcommiting on offense that left them out of position and unbalanced.


----------



## relytjj

FearlessFreep,

 The reason they don't use their hips and shoulders to generate power while on the ground is because the are more concerned with keeping the mount. If you tried to punch on the ground just like you would standing you would be bucked off or swept every time. It is more important to keep your weight on your opponent then to put it into your punch.

 I agree with you that it degenerated into a slugfest but both of those fighters do possess very good technical abilities. They just got tired and decided to play home run derby.

 -Tyler


----------



## jfarnsworth

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I also managed to catch a move last night between Liddell and some dude "Tiger" White.  Although they were more skilled on their feet and in their offensive attacks, a lot of it seemed te same; not a lot defensive hand or foot technqiues and people went down because of bad defensive or overcommiting on offense that left them out of position and unbalanced.



Just remember, You are looking at 2 totally different aspects of martial arts. Maybe thusfar in your experience you haven't been exposed to the various different styles :idunno: . I don't know you from anybody yet have enjoyed the questions you have posted coupled with your attitude to learn :asian: . I for one loved the fight between Bonner/Griffin. It was a good display of heart and attitude after it was over. I still give it a tip of the hat to both of them.


----------



## Dronak

A quick note in case anyone missed Saturday's showing -- from the TV schedule I saw on My Yahoo, it looks like they're airing the finale again tonight at 11pm or so on SpikeTV, after WWE Raw finishes.


----------



## triwahine

Diego looked good.  I'm glad to see that he got the contract.  As for the Bonnar/Griffen fight, I'm really glad they decided to award both a contract.  It was a warriors' battle and the two withstood  tons.  It's good to see something rewarded....


----------



## 7starmantis

Allready accepting apps for next season.

anyone here thinking of trying out for it?

7sm


----------



## Kane

I knew all along Diego was going to destroy his opponent in his match. If Diego was not to go to UFC, I would have picked Josh Koscheck, since he looked to be Diego's toughest challenge, and Josh was my personal favorite. That other guy that made it to the finals (forgot his name, florense or something I think) didn't have a chance. He basicly lost the semi-finals to that red head that lost to Josh Koscheck a couple weeks back, who I also forgot who name.

I didn't pay much attention to the light heavyweights durring the show, but the match was much more interesting to watch than the middleweight match, since it was much longer and closer.


----------



## psi_radar

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Allready accepting apps for next season.
> 
> anyone here thinking of trying out for it?
> 
> 7sm



I'm too old and fatherly (Randy Couture may differ in opinion). But 10 years ago... 

:jedi1:


----------



## JDenz

application is on ufc tv and ADCC news


----------



## Shogun

I got accepted to the Pride FC USA auditions, but could not attend. I thought my chances for that were pretty low, but apparently, out of thousands of apps, only about 200 people got accepted, and only about 100 of those guys could attend.

UFC is not for me but I will check it out anyway. you gonna try it out Primo?


----------



## Silver Dragon 65

Hi all you MMA folks.

Sorry to say that the only good fight of that whole show was the Stephen and Forrest brawl. And a brawl was all it was- No technique - No attempt at a strong finishing hold. EMPTY!
Koscheck had no stand up skills to speak of- any one can throw a punch. I'm sure he is a good wrestler, but in this game you don't wait for the ref to slap the mat just because you pin him to the mat. You have to make him tap out or knock him out. No finishing skills.
Deago had no real competition through the whole show.
He first fight was against a stand up fighter who had no reason being in the ring in the first place. 
His second fight was also a joke. None of these guys knew what to do once they hit the ground. Kind of makes you think what they where being taught by their coaches.
If they are strong standing up, then they should have focused on their ground game.
Deago is way over rated, when he gets in the Octagon with a real MMA he is going to be dead meat.
But I'm sure they will feed him some lesser talent and boost his win streak to make him look more formidable and that will go for Forrest and Stephen as well.
Why give these guys a contract to have them get their *** beat their first time out.
I will give Kuddos to Stephen and Forrest for their heart and ability to stand up and hammer the hell out of each other. Best UFC fight in years since it's beginning.
Not one BJJ guy in the whole show showed any ground techniques and not one of them would use what they say was their strength, instead they choose to stand and take shots for no reason at all.
It was a shame not to see any Gracie BJJ use any ankle locks or arm locks.
Too much talk about what Black Belt they had and not enough training or execution of their art.
The night of the finalls all of our Jin Pal Hapkido BB's got together and watched the finals.
Best fight of the night: Obviously -Stephen and Forrest. Entertainment value 8 out of 10
Second best Fight: Sorry Ken slipped and couldn't recover. Shamrock and the other guy. 5 out of 10
worst fight - Deago and Kenny. Deago got this on the last couple of elbows. 1 out of 10 and that is being generous!
Next UFC Fighter show, they should really look deep into the skills of the guys they pick for the show.
The Canadian guy at the beginning of the show should never ever have been picked for the show. How the hell did he get in there? There are way better Canadian fighters then that guy. Who did the picking of contestants?





I can't wait to see all three of the so called winners get into the Octagon with a legit UFC competitor that has worked his *** off the hard way and not rely on a reality show to short cut his way to the Octagon.
I'm sure they will get their heads handed to them!
________________________________________________________________
If a fight lasts more then 30 seconds, you have lost already.

Silver Dragon 65 JPHF 2nd dan Certified Instructor.
30 yrs Martial Arts experience.
That's why I have the opinion that I do about the fighters on the show.
You all know that there are way better fighters out there then there was on this show.
And they may even be YOU! Smile - hope I didn't offend anyone.
Happy Training everyone. check us out- www.hapkidocanada.com


----------



## cashwo

so you are saying that Forrest has not worked his *** off to get where he is and that he doesn't deserve to be in the UFC?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## dsp921

There are a few people that have said that these guys can't fight, they have no technique, no skill, etc.  I guess the only response I have to that is they are accepting applications for TUF 2.....


----------



## cashwo

dsp921 said:
			
		

> There are a few people that have said that these guys can't fight, they have no technique, no skill, etc. I guess the only response I have to that is they are accepting applications for TUF 2.....


exactly - here's the link - 

http://www.theultimatefighter.tv/application.php


----------



## 7starmantis

I'll say that they all have worked their asses off to get where they are, they all have alot of heart (we saw that on the finale fight) and they all can fight. But, I do agree that they have a *long* way to go. Their skill is pretty low comparatively and their stamina seems low, but I think they deserve to be where they are at, and they will only increase from here probably. I mean, look at how much they progressed just in the length of the show. Some more than others, obviously.

  7sm


----------



## cashwo

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'll say that they all have worked their asses off to get where they are, they all have alot of heart (we saw that on the finale fight) and they all can fight. But, I do agree that they have a *long* way to go. Their skill is pretty low comparatively and their stamina seems low, but I think they deserve to be where they are at, and they will only increase from here probably. I mean, look at how much they progressed just in the length of the show. Some more than others, obviously.
> 
> 7sm


exactly. forrest even said during the interview after the fight that he was upset with his conditioning. he knows what he has to work on and i'm sure he will.


----------



## Silver Dragon 65

No one said these guys didn't train their asses off to get there or deserve to be there. They did after all win a contract on a reality show.
They just don't IMO have the finishing skills needed to compete at the level of the top ranked UFC fighters.
I am also not  saying that they can not attain the needed finishing techniques, it is just what they showed in the ring that proved that they are not ready for that level of competition. I'm sure one day they might be.

Anyone can stand there and throw punches. Like I said before, if a fight goes beyond 30 seconds, you stand the chance of loosing the longer the fight goes on.
Myself...I slip the punch or kick and end the fight fast with a countless number of takedowns, Locks or chokes. Why waste energy throwing punches when you can take the opponent to the ground where most people don't know what to do once they are on the ground.
Take control and make them submit. No need to hurt your hands punching.

Do you think they would accept a 40 yr old Canadian Hapkido BB into the  TUF?
If so where do I sign up? Even at 40 yrs of age I train 7 days a week and 4 hours a day. I have worked through endless injuries and have no fear of working hard to prove that I have the finishing techniques needed to compete in UFC. But unfortunately they see that age thing from an unknown and they will not give that person the oppertunity to prove it doesn't matter how old you are, it is the technique and experience that you have to worry about.
So if you can pass along the application info, I have no problem signing on the dotted line.

IMHO they could have found better fighters, they are out there. Maybe they just didn't sign up, because they wanted to see what kind of talent was being accepted.
I'm sure the next batch( Hopefully!) will be better all around fighters, stand up and ground fighting experience.

Don't take offence Ladies and Gentlemen, it's just my own personal opinion.

Happy training.


----------



## cashwo

Silver Dragon 65 said:
			
		

> ...
> I can't wait to see all three of the so called winners get into the Octagon with a legit UFC competitor that has worked his *** off the hard way and not rely on a reality show to short cut his way to the Octagon.
> I'm sure they will get their heads handed to them!...


no offense taken at all but you did say the above statement and it does imply that you feel that they are not legit and did not work their asses off to get there. i just happen to disagree with this statement regarding Forrest and Bonnar. I would like to see Diego go against someone that could give him a run for his money.


----------



## Silver Dragon 65

:CTF:  I found the application form- I will be applying.
Lets see if I make the cut. I hope the age thing won't stop them from accepting my application. This should be a lot of fun.
I train anyways why not put it to use.
Wish me luck and I will keep you posted on the proccess of the application.
Happy training all! :asian:


----------



## cashwo

Silver Dragon 65 said:
			
		

> :CTF: I found the application form- I will be applying.
> Lets see if I make the cut. I hope the age thing won't stop them from accepting my application. This should be a lot of fun.
> I train anyways why not put it to use.
> Wish me luck and I will keep you posted on the proccess of the application.
> Happy training all! :asian:


Silver Dragon 65, that is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!  GOOD LUCK!!!


----------



## dsp921

Silver Dragon 65, that's great, you have my respect, I have no issue with people making their opinions known, as long as they are willing to back up the talk with action. Can't ask for more than that.
As for the comment about them being able to hang with the top ranked UFC guys, I don't think that is really the intent. They are still green and need time to grow in the sport, I would expect many undercard matches before they fight anyone that has made a name for themselves. 
Good luck with the application, you can represent all us old guys....


----------



## cashwo

dsp921 said:
			
		

> Silver Dragon 65, that's great, you have my respect, I have no issue with people making their opinions known, as long as they are willing to back up the talk with action. Can't ask for more than that.
> As for the comment about them being able to hang with the top ranked UFC guys, I don't think that is really the intent. They are still green and need time to grow in the sport, I would expect many undercard matches before they fight anyone that has made a name for themselves.
> Good luck with the application, you can represent all us old guys....


exactly and this is what i was trying to say it's just sometimes i can't put what i'm thinking into words.  Silver Dragon 65, you have my full respect.


----------



## Dronak

I think the UFC might do something similar to what the WWE did with Tough Enough.  There they got their winners, gave them some a little time on TV, then sent them to developmental schools to improve before they came back.  Granted, the UFC isn't the same kind of show, but they might be able to give the new winners a fight or few, undercard stuff with others near their level, then take them off cards for a while and let them train more.  *shrug*  Just a thought.

Silver Dragon 65, good luck with the application.  Do keep us updated about how things go.  It would be kind of cool to have someone from here on the show.  I'm not really a fighter, so there's no way I could try out.  But I'll certainly support anyone from here that's going to go for it.


----------



## psi_radar

Silver Dragon 65 said:
			
		

> :CTF:  I found the application form- I will be applying.
> Lets see if I make the cut. I hope the age thing won't stop them from accepting my application. This should be a lot of fun.
> I train anyways why not put it to use.
> Wish me luck and I will keep you posted on the proccess of the application.
> Happy training all! :asian:



Actually, the age thing might be an advantage to the casting agents; it could be a "hook" for grabbing a more varied audience. Good luck, hope to see you on the show.


----------



## Marginal

Silver Dragon 65 said:
			
		

> No one said these guys didn't train their asses off to get there or deserve to be there. They did after all win a contract on a reality show.



They also all had previous professional MMA experience, which does imply that some dues had already been paid. (Are they even considering people with no professional MMA experience?)

That aside, I'm not really getting your reasoning. TUF looks for fighters who want an shot at a UFC contract. So therefore, any fighters they get should be ready to compete at the highest levels of UFC competition? Nobody gets to be a top UFC level competitor overnight. Further, if they were at that level already, wouldn't they already be competiting in the UFC at top levels, or at least earning enough to make the need for getting onto a reality show moot?


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## MJS

Marginal said:
			
		

> They also all had previous professional MMA experience, which does imply that some dues had already been paid. (Are they even considering people with no professional MMA experience?)
> 
> That aside, I'm not really getting your reasoning. TUF looks for fighters who want an shot at a UFC contract. So therefore, any fighters they get should be ready to compete at the highest levels of UFC competition? Nobody gets to be a top UFC level competitor overnight. Further, if they were at that level already, wouldn't they already be competiting in the UFC at top levels, or at least earning enough to make the need for getting onto a reality show moot?



I agree.  I think a few of them, such as Leban, have fought in MMA events in the past.  However, like you said, I don't think they're fighting top level guys such as Chuck or Randy, but instead guys like themselves, who are trying to make a name for themselves.

Mike


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## Gin-Gin

Silver Dragon 65 said:
			
		

> :CTF:  I found the application form- I will be applying.
> Lets see if I make the cut. I hope the age thing won't stop them from accepting my application. This should be a lot of fun.
> I train anyways why not put it to use.
> Wish me luck and I will keep you posted on the proccess of the application.
> Happy training all! :asian:


Great! Good luck to you & please keep us posted.
:asian:


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## Shogun

I grabbed an app. off the site. Not expecting anything to happen, but didnt with pride either, and they gave me a call back in November so what the heck.

There is some really good Pro-am guys out there that deserve to already be in the UFC. lets hope that they dont fill the shows with people who are really good and dont need to be in some draft. Like someone else metioned, they should get guys who have experience but are still relative noobs to fighting. 

I am probably not what they are looking for. 165 lb. 19 year old with BJJ, Ninjutsu, wrestling, and Boxing exp.
but who knows??


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## Silver Dragon 65

Dronak said:
			
		

> I think the UFC might do something similar to what the WWE did with Tough Enough. There they got their winners, gave them some a little time on TV, then sent them to developmental schools to improve before they came back. Granted, the UFC isn't the same kind of show, but they might be able to give the new winners a fight or few, undercard stuff with others near their level, then take them off cards for a while and let them train more. *shrug* Just a thought.
> 
> Silver Dragon 65, good luck with the application. Do keep us updated about how things go. It would be kind of cool to have someone from here on the show. I'm not really a fighter, so there's no way I could try out. But I'll certainly support anyone from here that's going to go for it.


I am very impressed with the people who are on this thread. 
The number of "good luck" wishes are very inspirational to hear, even if you don't agree with some of the comments I have made.None which where meant any disrespect.
The "after all they did win a reality contest" comment was a little harsh. It was not meant to take anything away from the show or the competitors.


I did jump ahead of the fact that yes they probably will treat the 3 guys from the contest like they did in the "WWE Tough Enough" program.
Give them a fight with an up and comer and then send them back to the "training farm" so to speak.(hopefully you all can understand that statement?) and not put them up against the top teir fighters, which would be a negative for the program.
No one enters a fighting system such as the "UFC" challenging the number 1 contenders.
Removing my foot from mouth now!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I would like to give you all a little background on my Martial Arts background.

I started in Kick-Boxing/Karate for 4 years - brown belt
Kung-fu-Choi li Fuit 8 years - brown belt
judo/hand to hand combat training 1 year Canadian Armed Forces -orange belt
Jin Pal Hapkido 16 years and going strong- Certified 2nd degree Black belt instructor.

After I was out of the army I was a bouncer here in our little fair city. being 5'7" 185lbs- made me the smallest bouncer in our city of 189,000.
I have unfortunately had to deal with every kind of fighter there is, street fighters, Karate, Judo, Kung-fu, wrestlers,football players, bikers and whatever else came through the door.
Fortunately I was and still am very good at what I do...defend myself.
I have entered some Martial arts tournaments, but they are nothing to a brawl in a bar.
It's fight for your life because you don't know what will happen if they knock you out. horibble stuff that happens when alchohol is involved. No comon sense!
I am now a bartender and some times I still have to step out from behind the bar to put some rowdy patron to sleep. I don't punch anymore, I just slip the drunk punch and put them to sleep. Noone gets hurt from going to sleep.

Although winning a street fight has nothing to do with entering the UFC, it does give me an advantage in that I am very capable of adapting to all kinds of fighting styles. Entering and hopefully being accepted in this contest I hope to expand my fighting skills and knowledge. I also would truly love to push my skills to the limit against other trained Martial Artists!

Thanks to all who wished me luck and I will keep you posted on the application proccess!
Happy training everyone and once again thank you all.

Ray Coulson JPHF 2nd dan 
Regina, Sk. Canada


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## Semaj

Folks, we mgiht be here a while for this responce...



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Last night I saw a fight between Griffen and Bonnar(sp?) and I must say I found it pretty disapppointing, from a Martial Arts point of view (although not as much as earlier fights) Most of the fight's I'd managed to catch, when I managed to at all, seemed to be maybe 20-30 second o trying to punch each other until one could grab the other and then there was a bunch of ground wrestling which, frankly, I find a bit boring. At least Griffen and Bonnar managed to stay on their feet most of the time, or get back there.


 There is this strange thing that occurs nowadays, it's called groundfighting.  A lot of people who arn't as strong on thier feet (and some that are) have learned if they can get the fight to the mat, they can actually win, without taking the damage or risking a lucky shot.  The skill required to pull off a decent submission is high enough that while some find it boring, it doesnt change the fact these guys are highly skilled individuals.



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> What disappointed me from a Martial Arts perspective is how very little, or very poor, martial arts skill they seemed to use. It seemed to be little more than a boxing match with smaller gloves where you were allowed to kick (but little was done) and could wreslte if you got the chance. I now know why the fights do go to the ground; bad technique. From how I've been taught, at least, power comes from executing technique properly and quickly and proper and powerful technique requires balance and stability. Balance requires you to keep your back straight, your shoulders square, and your head up. What I saw was a lot of techqniques thrown from off-balance positions and a lot of punches that were thrown, especially in close, without putting body mass and hip movement into them. *Especially* when on the ground it seemed like the punches were being thrown just with arm strength; not stabilizing the body and getting full mass into it.


 Are you serious, or are you trying to be funny?  I'd like to see a guy go into the ufc, stand in 1 spot, and try to trade, while keeping proper footing and positioning at all times.  I think forrest put it best "Everyone has plans for what they want to do, and they all change the second you get popped in the mouth.



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I could tell off the bat that they did not respect the ability to kick. They set up too close, just barely beyond fist range which was well within kicking range. If they expected that the other person would and could kick them hard, the would not have been so close. What it seemed to me from this was that the few kicks thrown came in low, below the ability to see well or parry much , but also not with a lot of authority or power. Yeah, a few kicsk actually got up, but they didn't seem to be thrown very well.


 You must have missed the forms competition that occured beforehand.  Ever try to throw a decent formly kick while constantly advancing on a target?



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Anyway, what also struck me was the lack of defense and lack of counter movement in the striking/standup game. It seemed to be mostly "I'm going to get in and try to punch you more/harder than you do to me" and when they came in, the opened up their hand position and had very little defense. There seemed no attempt to use hand blocks to block the others defense, and no attempt to work both offense and defense simulataneously, such as to block with one hand while punching with the other. No attempt to counter an attack by defending it and striking back because the opponent had opened themselves up. No attempt to use footwork to bypass or sidestep the attack and come back once the attacker is out of good defensive position. For something labelled a "Martial Art" is seemed pretty one dimensional and unskilled.


 I'm going to save my ranting to the end..,. Because this hurts on so many levels I dont think I can form coherant thoughts that dont involve mean mean words.  Just wanted ot let you know I did read this section, no matter how silly it is.



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> And that's when I noticed the takedown. What appeared to me to happen in most cases is that a person would defensively duck their head and get their head and shoulders forward, which caused a lot of problems. First off, it's awfully hard to strike from down there in that position. Secondly, it got the person off-balance, making it really hard to strike 'well', but mostly, it got the person forward and off-balance and in close to the opponent, making it pretty straightforward to grab them and take them to the ground. That's why I thought, and said "ah hah! lack of good defensive technique leads to being in an easy position to take own, and since it's legal, they do" If you can direct a person's head, you can direct their body, and if they put their head down for you, well...their body will easily follow.


 You ever ever ever ever ever grappled?  With anyone mildly good?  Or spent any amount of time working on takedowns?



			
				FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Anyway, for something billed as "Mixed Martial Art" I found it very disappointing. I cannot comment on the ground work (other than that it seemed like punches from that position were not very authoritative and I'm thinking it's because the body position did not allow full hip and body mass motion to get more power into the punches) but the stand up/striking portion did not seem like much of a 'martial art' as it seemed fairly one dimensional and short on technique/skill of what I would consider important in martial arts and important in fighting period.


 Now, I wont bother arguing who you may or may not have thought won, because its a moot point for the rest of your arguing.  But I'll try ot make my comments in short doses so I dont have a Brain Anyeurism doing this.

 This fight, and thats what it was, a fight, not a forms competition, not a chance to show the world you know how to throw a decent roundhouse, was arguably the best fight I have ever seen in my life.  Every round I got more and more excited and every round those two went out there with thier hearts on thier sleeves and swung for the fences.  It might not have been the most technically sound fight, but those two men put out everything they had.  They didnt hold anything back and they with such desire and determination, anyone who watches MMA and watched that fight cant help but have more love for the sport.

 It wasnt about anything other than they going toe to toe, man to man for 15 straight minutes, unfliching, uncomprimising.  It was rocky, but it was real.  No script, no writers sitting at home thinking about how great an outcome it would be.  It was everything you should want in a fight, and if it isnt, why are you watching?

 That fight made the UFC.  There is a reason Dana gave both of those men contracts.  It's because this is what Dana wants the UFC to be remebered for.  Two guys, no ego's, no bling or pomp and circumstance, just giving it thier all for you in an entertaining manner.  Any of my friends who hate the UFC all said the same thing: "The fights are boring, the fights are quick and never really do much, etc."  I sat there and MADE all of my friends who could watch the fight, and every one of em said the same thing.  "While most of the suck, that was a good fight."

 Dana needs more fights like this one and the fact all you can think about is how these two guys apparently had "bad martial arts skills" boggles my damn mind.


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## 7starmantis

*- Mod Note -*
 Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. 

* MT Senior Mod*
 7starmantis
 Adam C


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## JDenz

I agree that was one of the best fights that I have seen in a long time.  There are no hand blocks cause if you miss fight is over.  Diego is on par with most guys in the UFC.  King Of the Cage undefeated champ, Pounded a BJJ black belt to get into the UFC.  He is the man and is going to be in the division.  All of these guys can fight.   There are a handful of the best fighters in the world they fight in Pride UFC K-1 of course there not on there level yet.


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## Shogun

So many BJJ black belts now days are almost making BJJ look bad. back in the day, if you held a BJJ black belt, you were almost guaranteed a win. now, "farm" BJJ schools are all over, and people only learn the techniques, they dont learn the championship secrets. the methods of winning. Vitor Belfort is a great boxer, but I question his Jiujitsu skills all the time. He didnt even try and submit Tito Ortiz when they fought. Granted, tito is a very good submission guy (ADCC), he nowhere near black belt level. Dave Terell is another guy who was put on his back by a wrestler, and pretty much gave up. I just dont know. BJJ black belt doesnt mean as much as it used to.



KE


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## Semaj

maybe they americainized the black belts, where you end up with one wihtout the real skills.


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## JDenz

Who exactly from the old days is looking bad compared to the new guys.  Renzo? Destroyed by Hendo and Saku, Sperry? Kondo ate him up lost to Ninja, Belfort has never been a legit blackbelt, The thing is the blackbelts arn't getting worse the rewst of the compition is better.  You don't have to beat them at Bjj just not get tapped by them.  I actully think that the compition has made the top guys better not worse.


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## clapping_tiger

I just want to add one thing to the comment about the boring side of the grappling aspect of MMA.  Back in the early 90's when I was into boxing and say my first UFC fight, I thought that wrestling crap was boring, and couldn't understand why you would want to go to the ground. All I can say, is that once I was exposed to grappling, and I don't mean just reading about it or watching it, but actually doing it. You gain a whole new respect for it. I am still a striker, and anyone who spars with me knows that my submission defense is pretty weak. But I am a 1000 times better fighter than I was, just by picking up the little bit that I did, and by knowing how effective it is, and that that is my weakness. Don't take groundfighting lightly.  It's kind of funny because one of my best friends is a strong grappler, and I am a strong striker, and have a pretty good takedown defense. We were talking during the last UFC (the Chuck and Randy II fight) and comparing our sparring matches with the classic Striker vs.. Grappler fights. It all boils down to IF he gets me down, I am in serious trouble, and the longer we remain on our feet, the more trouble he is in. These guys in there are fairly strong on both fronts. The point is, both are strong methods of fighting, and if you fully understand and respect both aspects of the game, the fights as a whole makes a lot more sense.


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## JDenz

well said


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