# Denial, conditioning kids to be violent, and guns...



## Cruentus (Jun 5, 2005)

I was reading this article (its real short, so go ahead and read it:

http://www.killology.com/leodenial.htm

It is interesting how he brings up denial, and how it can be dangerous in preventing violence in our children. I am also thinking that it could be dangerous in that it could allow kids to become conditioned to be violent through societies means of teaching it.

If I can articulate this, here is what I mean.

Kid lives in normal, middle american household with 2 parents, nice house, and so forth. The parents are about average in that they don't own guns, they have never taken an interest in their own self-defense beyond the usual locks on the doors and alarm system, etc. So, they aren't equipted and able to teach the kid the reality of guns or the effect of violence in society. They jsut never take the interest.

BUT....like most parents, the kid is allowed to watch what is on T.V., he has a playstation II with all the cool games - shooting games like grand theft auto, etc.

Basically, this middle american kid, like many kids today, is being conditioned through entertainment and media be violent, and to possibly to use a gun and commit violence. However, the kid is not really exposed to the reality of these things; they aren't actually shooting or training or learning the realities of it, they are just blasting away on the video game, or watching the movie where the good guy blasts away at everyone. So, they aren't exposed to the reality of these things, but they are associating these violent things with positive reward (enjoyment from going to the next level in the game, for instance).

So, considering that just about every kid in middle america today is probably going to be exposed and conditioned towards this stuff (if not from the parents own doing by buying the videogame, from friends, T.V., etc.), wouldn't it be best to try to give the child a realistic picture of violence through education throughout his life? So the kid doesn't associate shooting and car jacking someone like in the game as something positive, but rather he understands the negative consequences to such violent actions? And....wouldn't this include teaching kids about firearms, firearm safety, self-defense, etc.?

I am thinking that to be in denial, and to not teach our kids compassion, consequence, self-defense, the realities of violence, and about gun safety is going to actually put children in more in danger of becoming violent (or a victim of violence or tragedy). I am also thinking that a kid that learns how to handle a gun at a young age is a lot less likely to do something stupid with a gun and hurt himself or someone else due to lack of knowledge.

Just a thought....

Paul


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 6, 2005)

I am not only worried about kids getting used to the idea of violence, I worry about the attitude they see that it is ok and right.

Think about it. The message many kids see is that violence is cool and people who commit it are to be looked up to. Many singers cultivate an image of a person who uses violence on others to take care of silly little matters of pride. They are expected to be admired.

If the people that sing about shooting up others are in held up like that and show all the trappings of a worthy life, then what kind of message are the kids getting?

Parents see the kids buy these records and watch these types of movies and deal with it with the denial that Grossman talks about. They can't believe that their kid would somehow develop the outlook that doing violence is wonderful. Then, when their kids shoot up a school they cry in front of news cameras about how they have no idea why their kid did it.


----------



## MA-Caver (Jun 6, 2005)

In one way it is denial, in another way it's a river in Egypt. 
I grew up watching violent movies and such. My parents are deaf and long before the advent of video/DVD's and such were 16mm open captioned films that could be borrowed from one source or another. My dad usually had me be the "projectionist" and thus I watched movies like Bonnie and Clyde, Sam Peckinpaw's The Wild Bunch, True Grit, White Heat, various war movies, Bruce Lee movies and so on. 
I played "guns" and "Army" with my friends and learned how to hunt at an early age. While television wasn't was violent prone as it is today there was still enough there to cultivate it. 
Still, violence was taught to me by my parents AND my teachers that it was wrong. Still I got into a lot of fights at school and out of school. Picked up Martial arts and got even more fight prone til I grew up. Now I don't practice violence anymore. ...  unless of course I have to. But I didn't become a Charles Whitman or anything like that now did I? 
Using media as the cause of permissive violence is just blaming and pointing fingers away from the real problem. EVERYONE is responsible for how our children view things in this world. Our influences will stay with them til they themselves become "responsible" adults then they utilize "our" teachings along with their life experiences to pass along to their children and so forth. 
One evening a woman got pissed at me because I (she said I yelled at him... hardly, the kid had to ask me to repeat myself because he didn't hear me the first time  ) told her kid to pick up a piece of trash that he callously threw on the ground when there was a garbage can not five feet away from him. This kid's mother was pissed at me because I was trying to pass on a value of not being such a pig and littering. Was she in denial? Does she allow R-rated violent movies such as Kill Bill and The Matrix to be viewed by her kid. Well it is her right to expose her kid to whatever she wants isn't it? Mebbe SHE's in denial that someday he may create his own Columbine.  :idunno: Hard to say isn't it. We won't ever know what a person can or will do until they do it. We can speculate all we want but it's no guarantee. 
Those of us here on MT study MA and by doing so we are basically learning violent techniques to hurt someone else. But we are (supposedly) responsible enough not to do it so wontonly that just anyone will do. We use violence in self-defense, never for attack (right???). Thus being the responsible adults that  we are; we are (hopefully) passing along the *value* of choosing the right reason for utilizing the violence we learn to our children. We encourage them to study MA and SD techniques for the BASE reason that we're doing it. So they'll be better able to defend themselves in this ever increasingly violent world of ours. 
I seem to recall that we were called a "Nation of Values"... do we still hold that distinction anymore?? Reading the papers everyday about how this kid killed that kid and this one murdered their family, or this one failed to rehabilitate from killing a 4 yr old girl and then grew up to rob a pizza guy at gun point as soon as he was let loose on parole.... among dozens of other examples... makes me wonder. Where are our *values*? ..... Probably buried in denial.


----------



## KenpoTex (Jun 6, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I am thinking that to be in denial, and to not teach our kids compassion, consequence, self-defense, the realities of violence, and about gun safety is going to actually put children in more in danger of becoming violent (or a victim of violence or tragedy). I am also thinking that a kid that learns how to handle a gun at a young age is a lot less likely to do something stupid with a gun and hurt himself or someone else due to lack of knowledge.


 I think you're right on with this line of thought.  Like most guys, I grew up playing cowboys & indians, cops 'n' robbers, and watching war movies.  However, I also started shooting when I was 5 or 6.  As a result, from a young age, I was able to distinguish between what I saw on tv, and the realities of actually shooting something with a firearm.  I played the video games where you blew away people by the dozen.  OTOH, I actually knew what happened when you pointed a real gun at something and pulled the trigger.  
  It's no secret that kids today are almost constantly exposed to violence either through TV and video games, or for that matter, rap-music (I use the term 'music' very loosely in this case  ).  I do feel that this constant exposure contributes to the problem.  However, the problem as I see it is not in the violent imagery but in the fact that the kids are not taught to view this stuff in context.  They aren't taught to separate the fact from the fiction.  So IMO, the issue isn't whether there's too much violence in the media, but rather: Are kids being raised/taught to think critically and understand the difference between fantasy and reality?


----------



## Phil Elmore (Jun 6, 2005)

Mr. Grossman's work has its value, but he is not without his detractors.


----------



## Tgace (Jun 6, 2005)

Yeah..IMO Grossman has a "guns should be for cops and soldiers only" flavor about him.


----------



## TonyM. (Jun 6, 2005)

I don't remember Grossman. He must have been a FNG the year I ETSed.
Here's another viewpoint.      
www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA-Marshall/Main.htm


----------



## Franc0 (Jun 6, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I am thinking that to be in denial, and to not teach our kids compassion, consequence, self-defense, the realities of violence, and about gun safety is going to actually put children in more in danger of becoming violent (or a victim of violence or tragedy). I am also thinking that a kid that learns how to handle a gun at a young age is a lot less likely to do something stupid with a gun and hurt himself or someone else due to lack of knowledge.
> Just a thought....
> 
> Paul



And a good thought it is Paul. I've been teaching gun/weapons safety to my little boy since I felt he was old enough to understand my point. Though my wife was vehemently opposed to it, I took my son shooting as soon as I felt he could hold a gun up on his own. I feel that this type of indoctrination will help to diminish a childs curiosity to see "how it works and what it does". Of course I'm generalising here, but I'm sure alot of parents would agree that when most children aren't allowed to "play with that toy" their curiosity is aroused to a higher extent to see what it is about it that's so "off limits". Though my case might be attributed to personal experience and personality, my 9 year old son actually seems bored when his friends come over and see my knife collection encased in my coffee table and they want to check it out. His friends go "WOW! Check out those knives!" My son replies in a bored manner "Yeah, those are okay, but hey, check out the new game I got for my GameCube!" He knows there are severe penalties for messing with any of my knives, which includes the possability of injury (he's seen me cut myself in an accident once). When it comes to firearms, he's seen the destructive power that firearms can cause, from shooting watermelons, balloons and water filled jugs. On the other spectrum, again he's full aware of the extreme *** whooping he would receive for the unauthorized handling of any of my guns outside of the range. On a final note, one of my boy's favorite days is when I whip out the Airsoft gun to go over safe handling and shooting basics, to which he has extreme pride in showing me how carefully he follows the safety rules, followed by target practice by plinking soda cans in the yard.
So basically, his fascination of weapons is diminished through education, realisation and application. Now he's into pro wrestling's characters  

Franco


----------



## Cruentus (Jun 7, 2005)

Sharp Phil said:
			
		

> Mr. Grossman's work has its value, but he is not without his detractors.



True. I find this to be true with many people with a unique prospective on things. As with all works, I view his with a critical eye, however, I am a supporter and fan of some of his research.

Paul


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Jun 9, 2005)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> And a good thought it is Paul. I've been teaching gun/weapons safety to my little boy since I felt he was old enough to understand my point. Though my wife was vehemently opposed to it, I took my son shooting as soon as I felt he could hold a gun up on his own. I feel that this type of indoctrination will help to diminish a childs curiosity to see "how it works and what it does". Of course I'm generalising here, but I'm sure alot of parents would agree that when most children aren't allowed to "play with that toy" their curiosity is aroused to a higher extent to see what it is about it that's so "off limits". Though my case might be attributed to personal experience and personality, my 9 year old son actually seems bored when his friends come over and see my knife collection encased in my coffee table and they want to check it out. His friends go "WOW! Check out those knives!" My son replies in a bored manner "Yeah, those are okay, but hey, check out the new game I got for my GameCube!" He knows there are severe penalties for messing with any of my knives, which includes the possability of injury (he's seen me cut myself in an accident once). When it comes to firearms, he's seen the destructive power that firearms can cause, from shooting watermelons, balloons and water filled jugs. On the other spectrum, again he's full aware of the extreme *** whooping he would receive for the unauthorized handling of any of my guns outside of the range. On a final note, one of my boy's favorite days is when I whip out the Airsoft gun to go over safe handling and shooting basics, to which he has extreme pride in showing me how carefully he follows the safety rules, followed by target practice by plinking soda cans in the yard.
> So basically, his fascination of weapons is diminished through education, realisation and application. Now he's into pro wrestling's characters
> 
> Franco


I think your post has most of the answers to the current problem of school shootings. Kids used to be around firearms of all sorts during the majority of U.S. history - particularly in rural areas - and did not shoot each other up in the way they do now. A kid who's trained by his or her parents to respect WEAPONS and HUMAN LIFE generally doesn't bring a handgun to school to "off" his classmates.

Problems:

1. Not availability of firearms, rather UNAVAILABILITY of adult mentoring
2. Absentee or uninvolved parents
3. Breakdown of discipline in both homes and schools
4. Media glorification of violence, or rather parent's over-purchasing of media  items that do so (ok with a violent show or movie now and then but 24/7?)


----------



## goshawk (Jun 9, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> 1. Not availability of firearms, rather UNAVAILABILITY of adult mentoring
> 2. Absentee or uninvolved parents
> 3. Breakdown of discipline in both homes and schools
> 4. Media glorification of violence, or rather parent's over-purchasing of media items that do so (ok with a violent show or movie now and then but 24/7?)


I think you've got a good list there. Also, the article has a decent theory. Something to think about, to be sure.

::grin:: Then again, I grew up with those same average North American parents--you know, the ones with no self-defence beyond locks on the doors (and sometimes, not even that...). I watched brutally violent movies with my father from age six, didn't touch a firearm until I joined cadets at 14, and I still managed to grow a sense of respect for firearms and an interest in personal self-defence. 

Who knows all the factors involved with the issue? It's definitely more complex than I've observed people to discuss. However, your list is an excellent starting place; especially the points about irresponsible parenting and lack of discipline. The dumbest kids I ever supervised on the range at cadets were invariably the ones whose parents were constantly late and completely uninvolved in the squadron. 

Look to the home before pointing fingers to the media.


----------



## andy (Jul 10, 2005)

Tulisan,
If i understood your post I couldn't agree more. My own family is a good example. I was born and raised around guns in the typical backwoods fashion. both parents satisfied my curiosity at an early age and gave me a healthy respect and love of firearms.
 Sadly my nephew was raised to believe 'guns bad' and wasn't even allowed to have toy guns. And I wasn't around enough to give him a reality dose either.
 In his teenage years we had the opportunity to get to know each other, so I thought it might be fun to grab the rifles and take a stroll thru the woods.

 it was scary.. his total lack of knowledge was dangerous and sad. I tried to educate him but the fifteen years of politically correct programming and ignorance makes for a rather large wall to break down.


----------



## Bigshadow (Jul 10, 2005)

Remember the phrase "Curiosity Kills the Cat".  Well, unfortunately, that is what happens from time to time to children who are raised in homes where guns are at AND the parents don't teach the children firearms safety and keep them out of reach of the children, most often the parents don't know anything about the firearms either.

 However, there are many families like mine where my 10 year old son has been to the gun range many times with me shooting everything from my S&W .45 ACP to my tricked out SKS.  He is not afraid of firearms but has a respect for them and realizes what they will do.

 I could easily leave my loaded .45 on the dining room table with absolutely no fear of him playing with it.  If he wants to hold a firearm or look at it.  He comes and asks me and I get it for him and clear it, then hand it to him.  This teaches him that 1.  He must ask to handle someone's firearms, 2.  He must clear the firearm and 3.  He must ALWAYS treat it as if it were loaded.
 I have driven this home over and over again.  I still watching him like a hawk when he is handling a firearm.

 I say it all begins at home.  I say it all begins with the parents.  A little education goes a long way.  Heck, as a child, I watched war movies, cops/robbers, played "army", and always had toy guns around.  I have never been in trouble with the law.  BTW, I would never let my son play those video games.  We scrutinize the games he plays.  If it shows disrespect to Law enforcement or depicts illegal activities and such, we don't let him play them.  We explain to him why. 

 It is when children do not know and their curiosity (they are always curious) gets them into situations that require knowledge that situations get dangerous.  This goes for more than their firearms.  As parents, it is our responsibility to arm the children with knowledge to make the right choices and do the right things.  Whether it be guns, friends, or activities.

 Don't give up hope on people, there are still many good folks out there that can see through all the crap and can raise their kids by being a good role model and teaching them about choice and consequence.

 I kind of rambled my thoughts out.... So I will leave it at that.


----------



## KenpoTex (Jul 11, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Remember the phrase "Curiosity Kills the Cat".  Well, unfortunately, that is what happens from time to time to children who are raised in homes where guns are at AND the parents don't teach the children firearms safety and keep them out of reach of the children, most often the parents don't know anything about the firearms either.
> 
> However, there are many families like mine where my 10 year old son has been to the gun range many times with me shooting everything from my S&W .45 ACP to my tricked out SKS.  *He is not afraid of firearms but has a respect for them and realizes what they will do.*


I think you hit the nail on the head.  I was raised much the same way with regard to handling firearms.  If I ever have kids this will be the strategy I'll use with them.


----------



## andy (Jul 12, 2005)

bigshadow-kenpotex--I couldn't agree more


----------



## Jason L (Jul 13, 2005)

Very true... My wife and I have contemplated this many times, and both agree with what has been said. Just out of curiosity, at what age did you begin to familiarize your children with firearms, let them shoot etc?

What worked and what didn't?

jason


----------

