# Defense Against The Bearhug



## MJS (Apr 4, 2006)

Pretty much every art out there has a number of defenses against the bearhug, both front and rear. I thought that we could discuss some of the best defenses that you've seen for this type of attack, as well as things that may be overlooked in some defenses.

Some things to keep in mind while discussing the techniques:

The intention of the attack- what they want to acheive once they get the grab.

Arms pinned or free

If the arms are pinned, where are they grabbing us on the arm? 

What tools are available to us at the time.


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## samurai69 (Apr 4, 2006)

*I think what ever position the bear hug is done from, its important to drop bodyweight*

unless being lifted from behind with arms pinned in which case back kicks to legs/groin then as weight drops forward, drop body weight and then push back to head butt attackers chin


.


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## thetruth (Apr 4, 2006)

Though you can't actually practice this at your school.  If you get caught in a front bear hug with your arms pinned start with spitting in their face or if the top of their head is below your face spit in their hair.  This works better for guys as a violent confrontation for a guy is usually dealt with via striking.  Once they start bear hugging you the escalation has diminished a little which will mean the adrenaline they have built up won't stop them being truly disgusted by what you just did to the point they may let go or loosen. From there it is up to you to follow up.

Plus if they have you in a bear hug both of their arms are tied up so a few lung biscuits in their face or hair won't put you at risk of being hit.  However if they just wanted a hug to start with you have now started a fight 

Cheers
Sam


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 4, 2006)

Great stuff!  Foot/instep stomps can be great too.


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## MJS (Apr 4, 2006)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> *I think what ever position the bear hug is done from, its important to drop bodyweight*
> 
> unless being lifted from behind with arms pinned in which case back kicks to legs/groin then as weight drops forward, drop body weight and then push back to head butt attackers chin
> 
> ...


 
Good point!  That should make it harder, should the person grabbing attempt to lift and throw you to the ground.




> Though you can't actually practice this at your school. If you get caught in a front bear hug with your arms pinned start with spitting in their face or if the top of their head is below your face spit in their hair. This works better for guys as a violent confrontation for a guy is usually dealt with via striking. Once they start bear hugging you the escalation has diminished a little which will mean the adrenaline they have built up won't stop them being truly disgusted by what you just did to the point they may let go or loosen. From there it is up to you to follow up.
> 
> Plus if they have you in a bear hug both of their arms are tied up so a few lung biscuits in their face or hair won't put you at risk of being hit. However if they just wanted a hug to start with you have now started a fight
> 
> ...


 
Certainly a nasty thing to do, but it just may buy some time inbetween moves.




> Great stuff! Foot/instep stomps can be great too.


 
Agreed!  


Some great replies!  Thanks to all of those that posted!  I was also hoping that we could look at some various techniques from the arts that we study.

Mike


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 4, 2006)

headbutts are key here, whether you're really slamming them or pressing with your forehead to manipulate the face.  it'll at the very least get their attention off the hold for a moment.

from my system, vs. a bear hug from behind, arms pinned or free...

step hard right into a horse stance, pulling the badguy off balance.  step aroud behind with your left leg.  make sure to press your left knee into the pit of his right knee.  turn your torso counterclockwise while flailing both arms.  he'll fall over.  if he takes you with him, you get to put your elbow in is gut a la wwe.


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## Odin (Apr 4, 2006)

My fav is to dig your hands under their ribcage and pull it up (if you can get your hands high enough if you can he wont be able to hold that hold for long) if not head butts are the one,or even knees to the groin.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 4, 2006)

At my ikkyu testing, a memeber of the testing board came up and put me in a front bearhug with  arms pinned for me to escape from.  Dropped my center and my knee went right into his groin.  Not a particuraly hard blow, but not soft either.  Found out he wasn't wearing wearing a cup.  Said they were uncomfortable.  From his reaction, my knee there was a lot less comfy than wearing a cup though.

Little off topic, but it does involve bearhugs and a good defense against them.

Oh, and the other memebers of the board laughed thier butts off.

Jeff


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## Odin (Apr 4, 2006)

you know I just thought when i was in high school and used to play fight with my mates a good defence for a bear hug from behind was to simply shout 'errrrghhh he's trying to rape me!!'....most would just let go,who knows it might work now.


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## Henderson (Apr 4, 2006)

This must all be taken within the context of the attack itself.  If the assailant is alone, and bearhugs you from behind with arms pinned, just relax.  Why do anything?  His arms are occupied.  He can't kick you from this hold.  I don't care how strong he is, he can't hold my 225 lbs in the air that long.  He will become tired and drop me.

Arms free is another story.  If grabbed from behind, I am fond of testing the flexibility of his fingers.  No matter what grip he chooses, all the fingers cannot be concealed.

Keeping with the humor in this thread...If grabbed in a bearhug from the front?  Kiss him on the forehead.  You are pretty much guaranteed to be released.


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## bignick (Apr 4, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Keeping with the humor in this thread...If grabbed in a bearhug from the front?  Kiss him on the forehead.  You are pretty much guaranteed to be released.



Or taken home for dinner...


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## swiftpete (Apr 4, 2006)

I've found that dropping weight forward onto my right leg and pushing matching arm forward and slightly up simultaneusly, with a little shoulder shimmy move can easily throw someone even if they have a hard grip from behind. Secret as with a lot of techniques is to relax and not be tense. My instructor was showing us this really simple release the other day and my friend who is 3" taller and about 40 lbs heavier, couldn't keep hold of me. 
it's not easy with words to explain exactly what i mean though unfortunately!


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## 7starmantis (Apr 4, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> headbutts are key here, whether you're really slamming them or pressing with your forehead to manipulate the face. it'll at the very least get their attention off the hold for a moment.
> 
> from my system, vs. a bear hug from behind, arms pinned or free...
> 
> step hard right into a horse stance, pulling the badguy off balance. step aroud behind with your left leg. make sure to press your left knee into the pit of his right knee. turn your torso counterclockwise while flailing both arms. he'll fall over. if he takes you with him, you get to put your elbow in is gut a la wwe.



Part the Horses Main - Tai Chi

This works great from a variety of behind grabs including arm grabs and such and works from either side too. 

7sm


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## Henderson (Apr 4, 2006)

For those familiar with kata Seuinchin, the extension of the arms to the front with crossed wrists, then rotating them over and thrusting elbow to the rear while sinking into neko ashi dachi is a fine bunkai for a rear bearhug.


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## Henderson (Apr 4, 2006)

Then again...from a true self-defense point of view, what were we doing and where were our awareness skills the whole time this assumed agressor was getting close enough to grab us?  But alas, that is another discussion.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 4, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Then again...from a true self-defense point of view, what were we doing and where were our awareness skills the whole time this assumed agressor was getting close enough to grab us? But alas, that is another discussion.



Haha, very good! My instructor says that all the time when people ask about certain situations.

7sm


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## KenpoTex (Apr 4, 2006)

If they're trying to drag you or move you around, establish your base by dropping your weight.  Follow up with head-butts, foot-stomps, and groin attacks (strikes or grabs) until they release.  Then finish the fight in whatever manner you prefer (takedown, striking, etc.)

If they try to pick you up, "grapevine" with ONE leg until they set you back down, then start attacking.

If your arms are free, they've just made it that much easier for you to inflict damage.


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## still learning (Apr 4, 2006)

Hello, Great stuffs here guys!  

Just want to share a story.  My son was grab from behind with a bear hug and his first instincts was a headbutt.  It turn out to be his friend playing around.  His buddy let go right away, and had a very sore head.

The one that is taught in our classes is (bear hug from behind) to squat down, moving the left leg out down and pushing both hands straight out.  From here we go into  one of our attack mode.  examples: right back elbow, right hammer fist the groin,and  right elbow up to chin and  left rear hook kick to groin, turn around and if  the person needs more attention, we can always add more.............Aloha


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## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

Yep! That will do just fine, in most cases.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 5, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> This must all be taken within the context of the attack itself. If the assailant is alone, and bearhugs you from behind with arms pinned, just relax. Why do anything? His arms are occupied. He can't kick you from this hold. I don't care how strong he is, he can't hold my 225 lbs in the air that long. He will become tired and drop me.


 
True, given your size - but sometimes the person will attempt to THROW you into something from a rear-bearhug, so if there are objects around you could be hurled into a delay of even a split-second could be costly. As for myself, I am smaller than you are and cannot afford to wait.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

Absolutely! Any waiting in any self defense situation is costly! Remember Ed Parker's quote "He who hesitates meditates in a horizontal position!" If you get bear hugged and picked up, your definitely going to get tossed! React immediately!!!


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## MJS (Apr 5, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:
			
		

> headbutts are key here, whether you're really slamming them or pressing with your forehead to manipulate the face. it'll at the very least get their attention off the hold for a moment.
> 
> from my system, vs. a bear hug from behind, arms pinned or free...
> 
> step hard right into a horse stance, pulling the badguy off balance. step aroud behind with your left leg. make sure to press your left knee into the pit of his right knee. turn your torso counterclockwise while flailing both arms. he'll fall over. if he takes you with him, you get to put your elbow in is gut a la wwe.


 
Very similar to a Kenpo technique called "Crashing Wings"  As our foot is going behind the opponent, we're doing a left elbow strike and right hammerfist to the groin.

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 5, 2006)

Odin said:
			
		

> My fav is to dig your hands under their ribcage and pull it up (if you can get your hands high enough if you can he wont be able to hold that hold for long) if not head butts are the one,or even knees to the groin.


 
On a similar idea, against a front bearhug, arms pinned, reaching up and grabbing onto some skin in the lat area.  I like the idea of the ribs though!

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 5, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Arms free is another story. If grabbed from behind, I am fond of testing the flexibility of his fingers. No matter what grip he chooses, all the fingers cannot be concealed.


 
Definately a good choice!!  Striking the back of his hand with your knuckles is another way of getting a release as well as helping to get ahold of his fingers.

Mike


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## RoninPimp (Apr 5, 2006)

Modern MMA Clinch 101 covers pretty much all the variables found from the bear hug. Drill and spar. Drill and spar.


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## jgrimm01 (Apr 5, 2006)

Something that our style teaches as well is in either case, from the front or the back, roll your shoulders forward as much as you can to create space for you to breathe...if your arms get pinned truly at your sides, a giant squeeze from the assailant is all that's needed to completely remove your ability to inhale...its tough to react when you can't breathe at all...lol...

Train hard, 
Jamie


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## Cryozombie (Apr 5, 2006)

Ok, difficult to explain maybe, but... Ill try...

Grab from the back, over the arms... I like to lower my center of gravity as soon as I feel the grab, to make it harder to lift me once the clamp on.  Shift my hips either in or out, and slide my foot thru their legs or behind the leg on the outside, depending how the attacker grabs, and then do a rear softfall onto their leg... with a followup on the ground when we hit...

Its tough, because I have miffed this up and wound up in a nasty choke... but after doing it wrong a few times you start watching for it, and take control of a hand or arm as you are going down...


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## Makalakumu (Apr 5, 2006)

Here is one that works if you react as soon as you are grabbed...


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## BlackSheep (Apr 5, 2006)

Any technique not trained with full speed and power against a fully resisting partner will always be a low percentage technique for the user. On the other hand, high percentage techniques are those techniques that have been trained with full speed and power against a fully resisting partner. 

Head butts, foot stomps and similar techniques can not be practiced at full speed and full power. Not if you want to keep your training partners that is. 

A high percentage technique for a front bear hug is the metzger

A high percentage technique for a rear bear hug is the switch*

* A switch can be done from the standing position as well.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 5, 2006)

BlackSheep said:
			
		

> Head butts, foot stomps and similar techniques can not be practiced at full speed and full power. Not if you want to keep your training partners that is.



Sure they can, that's what "redman" suits and the like are for.

Jeff


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## BlackSheep (Apr 5, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Sure they can, that's what "redman" suits and the like are for.


I think the over protection of redman suits sufficiently distorts the reactions of the person being struck as to make the whole exercise very unrealistic.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 5, 2006)

BlackSheep said:
			
		

> I think the over protection of redman suits sufficiently distorts the reactions of the person being struck as to make the whole exercise very unrealistic.



It does.  It makes it a lot harder.  Also it lets you get lots of reps of the technique.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 5, 2006)

JeffJ

If I read your post right, you agree that training in a redman suit is unrealistic, right?

So we have a situation where the bear hug guy is virtually immune from head butts etc. so he will always slam the head butt guy to the ground. Therefore the head butt guy never learns to do the technique effectively.

Or the bear hug guy lets the head butt guy succeed, making it unrealistic and low percentage again.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 6, 2006)

It's both. The head butt guy will head butt. The suit will prevent the wearer from really feeling it, thus, responding like someone would for real, and the head butt guy would get slammed to the floor.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 6, 2006)

The suit is a two edged sword. As stated, it lets one keep practicing at full power, while protecting the partner. However, the automnomic responses of the assailant aren't present in the training, like they would be for real.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 6, 2006)

BlackSheep said:
			
		

> JeffJ
> 
> If I read your post right, you agree that training in a redman suit is unrealistic, right?
> 
> ...



Is what the protective gear like the redman suit allows is safe repititions.  You practice your headbutts against a bag, brickwall, or whatever to get the technique right.  Then you go against a partner in a redman suit, which allows you to practice the technique using full power and speed against a living, breathing, and moving person.  Will that person in the suit react the same as an uprotected person?  Of course not, but it gives you practice against a live, albeit protected, person.  The trick is to treat the suit as a big moving bag. You want the person wearing the suit not to bowl over, but not to ignore what technique was done on him. It's not the end all/be all of training.  Just to be clear, I'm not attacking the techniques you posted.  Looks like good stuff to me.  Grappling is a big part of my SD training, I just like to loosen them up with a strike of some kind.

Jeff


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## MJS (Apr 6, 2006)

> Pretty much every art out there has a number of defenses against the bearhug, both front and rear. I thought that we could discuss some of the best defenses that you've seen for this type of attack, as well as things that may be overlooked in some defenses.
> 
> Some things to keep in mind while discussing the techniques:
> 
> ...


 
Just to confirm...this is the topic of the thread!  I do not care to discuss pressure testing, padded suits or things of a similar nature.  In the past we have had many threads become derailed.  That being said, I do not wish that to happen with this thread.

So, back to the discussion of bearhugs.

Mike


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 6, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Just to confirm...this is the topic of the thread!  I do not care to discuss pressure testing, padded suits or things of a similar nature.  In the past we have had many threads become derailed.  That being said, I do not wish that to happen with this thread.
> 
> So, back to the discussion of bearhugs.
> 
> Mike



Sorry about that.  Let myself get sucked into the sweeping statement thing.

Jeff


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 6, 2006)

Real world bear hugs are questionable at best. The only person I've ever seen using a bear hug on somebody has been either police or some other security personel. Either way, it was what I'd call a static hold and because of who is doing the holding, doing something against it would be asking for some serious trouble. Therefor, it becomes a mute point. Now the times I have seen a bear hug used by folks actually in a confrontation, has been from the rear and the person was picked up and dumped so fast, there was nothing that could be done - again it becomes a mute point. So IMO, all that training for this type of attack is wasted effort.


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## still learning (Apr 6, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Real world bear hugs are questionable at best. The only person I've ever seen using a bear hug on somebody has been either police or some other security personel. Either way, it was what I'd call a static hold and because of who is doing the holding, doing something against it would be asking for some serious trouble. Therefor, it becomes a mute point. Now the times I have seen a bear hug used by folks actually in a confrontation, has been from the rear and the person was picked up and dumped so fast, there was nothing that could be done - again it becomes a mute point. So IMO, all that training for this type of attack is wasted effort.


 
I am not sure if all of us can agree that this type of attack is wasted to defend against?
It does happen and yes if the person dumps you quickly...this will be hard to protect yourself.

It is like saying why use a punch if it can be block? ...why throw a kick if it can be grab?  We practice them because bearhugs do happen. In the real world how many times did you punch someone or kick a person to defend yourself? Most of us will not ever get into a real fight.  But we train....to learn how to defend against most possible attacks, even it will most likely never happen in the real world.

Bearhugs from behind...you can escape if done quickly before being lifted and dump. This is where your training will kick in before thinking about it.
We practice this alot...for those who where dump...need to train more? ...do you agree?  .....just my thoughts......Aloha


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## MJS (Apr 6, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Real world bear hugs are questionable at best. The only person I've ever seen using a bear hug on somebody has been either police or some other security personel. Either way, it was what I'd call a static hold and because of who is doing the holding, doing something against it would be asking for some serious trouble. Therefor, it becomes a mute point. Now the times I have seen a bear hug used by folks actually in a confrontation, has been from the rear and the person was picked up and dumped so fast, there was nothing that could be done - again it becomes a mute point. So IMO, all that training for this type of attack is wasted effort.


 
I would think that there would be some merit to train this type of attack, considering it could be used in an abduction or rape attempt.  If we discounted every technique because it didn't work for one person in question, we'd probably end up tossing out a good portion of techniques.

Mike


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## Cryozombie (Apr 7, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Real world bear hugs are questionable at best. The only person I've ever seen using a bear hug on somebody has been either police or some other security personel.



I saw it done in a Biker Bar one night.  Dude came up and grabbed the guy from behind and held him while his buddy came up and broke a pool cue across his face.  Nasty stuff.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah. A very common scene when someone engages another, that's part of a group. Broken bottles across the face, also, pretty nasty!


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## green meanie (Apr 7, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> This must all be taken within the context of the attack itself. If the assailant is alone, and bearhugs you from behind with arms pinned, just relax. Why do anything? His arms are occupied. He can't kick you from this hold. I don't care how strong he is, he can't hold my 225 lbs in the air that long. He will become tired and drop me.


 
What if he drops you on your head Frank?


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## Hand Sword (Apr 7, 2006)

Exactly! They picked you up for a reason. Your not going to be held there, you are going down!


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## Tony (Apr 7, 2006)

I remember I was in a rear bear hug, had my hands free and using a knuckle to striek the back of one of his hands which didn't work, I proceeded to use a backward headbut and it worked! A front bear hug is perfect if your hands are free because u can claw the persons face, or headbutt again!


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## thescottishdude (Apr 7, 2006)

is there any grappling moves to be used? this is the type of thing your non-martial arts friends do to you to see if you're "any good". you can't really kick them or punch them. but spitting may be funny


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## RoninPimp (Apr 7, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> The suit is a two edged sword. As stated, it lets one keep practicing at full power, while protecting the partner. However, the automnomic responses of the assailant aren't present in the training, like they would be for real.


-What is a automnomic response?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 7, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -What is a automnomic response?


 
Something that happens at an opportune time.


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 7, 2006)

"Bearhugs from behind...you can escape if done quickly before being lifted and dump".

I'm sorry, but you can't.......there just is not enough time. We've attempted to defend against this situation in training and it just won't work. Understand, the majority of folks that are going to attempt to use a bear hug are fairly good sized and unless they are holding you so another can hit you, you'll be dumped head first and very quickly. Anybody can defend against something when #1 - they have time to react and #2 - they know what's coming. To offer no training against a punch or a kick to use as a rebuttal against a rear bear hug is ???????? One can't defend against a sucker punch either, because they were not aware it was coming. There's lots of things that can't be trained for, but to give good training time to something that's not likely to happen and even if it did happen, you couldn't react in time, falls under the heading of "What For"!
Another statement used for accepting this training was the aspect of rape or abduction. Again, a waste of time. Who is being attacked here....most likely either a child or a female. Do you think that they will either have enough time or power available to defend against this?.......Not likely. What then do they do? Well they wait for a possible opening to do something that could work. There's an old saying that "all training is good training".....I disagree. It must be valued training and nothing less.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 7, 2006)

thescottistdude said:
			
		

> is there any grappling moves to be used?


Look at my first post.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 7, 2006)

> "Bearhugs from behind...you can escape if done quickly before being lifted and dump".
> 
> I'm sorry, but you can't.......


Bull!

It&#8217;s done often in wrestling.


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## Henderson (Apr 7, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> roninpimp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually, an autonomic response is involuntary. Basically, it means your reflexes.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Autonomic


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## still learning (Apr 7, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> "Bearhugs from behind...you can escape if done quickly before being lifted and dump".
> 
> I'm sorry, but you can't.......there just is not enough time. We've attempted to defend against this situation in training and it just won't work. Understand, the majority of folks that are going to attempt to use a bear hug are fairly good sized and unless they are holding you so another can hit you, you'll be dumped head first and very quickly. Anybody can defend against something when #1 - they have time to react and #2 - they know what's coming. To offer no training against a punch or a kick to use as a rebuttal against a rear bear hug is ???????? One can't defend against a sucker punch either, because they were not aware it was coming. There's lots of things that can't be trained for, but to give good training time to something that's not likely to happen and even if it did happen, you couldn't react in time, falls under the heading of "What For"!
> Another statement used for accepting this training was the aspect of rape or abduction. Again, a waste of time. Who is being attacked here....most likely either a child or a female. Do you think that they will either have enough time or power available to defend against this?.......Not likely. What then do they do? Well they wait for a possible opening to do something that could work. There's an old saying that "all training is good training".....I disagree. It must be valued training and nothing less.


 
So your answer is "Cannot defend against a bearhug and sucker punch?"

Nothing can be done?  Right? ....UM? ...I must think about this more?..Aloha


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> "Bearhugs from behind...you can escape if done quickly before being lifted and dump".
> 
> I'm sorry, but you can't.......there just is not enough time. We've attempted to defend against this situation in training and it just won't work. Understand, the majority of folks that are going to attempt to use a bear hug are fairly good sized and unless they are holding you so another can hit you, you'll be dumped head first and very quickly. Anybody can defend against something when #1 - they have time to react and #2 - they know what's coming. To offer no training against a punch or a kick to use as a rebuttal against a rear bear hug is ???????? One can't defend against a sucker punch either, because they were not aware it was coming. There's lots of things that can't be trained for, but to give good training time to something that's not likely to happen and even if it did happen, you couldn't react in time, falls under the heading of "What For"!
> Another statement used for accepting this training was the aspect of rape or abduction. Again, a waste of time. Who is being attacked here....most likely either a child or a female. Do you think that they will either have enough time or power available to defend against this?.......Not likely. What then do they do? Well they wait for a possible opening to do something that could work. There's an old saying that "all training is good training".....I disagree. It must be valued training and nothing less.


 
Question for you:  If what you're saying is the case, then what do you suggest the person do to defend themselves?

Mike


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 8, 2006)

Question for you: If what you're saying is the case, then what do you suggest the person do to defend themselves?


As stated prior, there are things that cannot be defended against, it's that simple.

"Bull! Done in wrestling"........Ah! another apples to oranges counter. If this needs to be explained further, somebody needs a reality check.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 8, 2006)

What are you talking about? Wrestling and all other grappling styles have tons of techniques, both offensive and defensive, from the bear hug position. There may be things that can't be defended from, but the bear hug isn't one of them.


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## green meanie (Apr 8, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? Wrestling and all other grappling styles have tons of techniques, both offensive and defensive, from the bear hug position. There may be things that can't be defended from, but the bear hug isn't one of them.


 
Agreed. When someone locks their hands around you, call it what you want, but you're 'wrestling'. That doesn't mean that they're playing by any rules, or that they won't slam the bejeezus out of you if you let them, but to say that escapes that work on the mat won't work in a bar or on the street is ridiculous.


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## Kwiter (Apr 8, 2006)

I once confused the hell out of my cousins friend who bearhugged me from behind and foolishly left my arms free, he was a skinny little bugger so I reached back and grabbed him with both arms and locked my hand over my opposite wrist against his back freaked him out and he let go immediately.


---

http://www.geocities.com/welovekarate


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## MJS (Apr 9, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Question for you: If what you're saying is the case, then what do you suggest the person do to defend themselves?
> 
> 
> As stated prior, there are things that cannot be defended against, it's that simple.
> ...


 
Sorry, but I have to agree with Roninpimp, Blacksheep and Green meanie on this one.  It appears that you're basing the success on this defense only on what you have seen.  There are a few things that need to be taken into consideration.

1) What happened to our awareness?  Why did we let ourselves get into this position in the first place?  IMHO, being aware, is one of the most important things in the self defense area.

2) Running scenario drills will help in this area.  Standing with eyes closed, the defender can begin his defense as soon as the hands are felt.  This IMO is when the defense needs to begin.  Why wait until the grab is completed?  This can also be done with strikes, kicks and weapon attacks.  Again, with eyes closed, a cue word can be given.  The defender opens their eyes, and the attack is immediately launched, not giving the defender time to think, but instead forces them to react right away.

Again, unless you've seen how everyone trains this, to say that a defense is not possible is wrong.

Mike


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## still learning (Apr 9, 2006)

Hello, Bearhugs and being thrown right away...."yep".. this may be very hard to defend....except the fall.   Hopefully you will be able to rise back up?    (actully I prefer hand shakes)

Awareness is good... bearhug..not good.  hug by you? ...OK

There is no hard rule if can or cannot defend against this...no two situtions will be the same....in the movies...they can....Aloha


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## DavidCC (Apr 9, 2006)

When hugged from behind, if your arms are pinned above the elbow, we practice a technique where you dig your knuckles in between the bones of the hand, between the pinky and ring finger (but on the back of the hand).  Even with arms pinned you can usually reach it.  Extremely painful.  However it appears to be a pain-compliance technique so it has its limitations...


However, this only works if you ahve a second or two to do it.  If the attacker immediately picks you up to throw you, you might not be able to get this sunk in.  But I think that is a different scenario.  "What if you are picked up form behind and thrown" as opposed to "What if you are grabbed in a bear hug frm behind".  The 2 scenarios are strongly related but different.


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## Robert Lee (Apr 9, 2006)

resistive weight can be held better then relaxed weight considered dead weight  One breath  low lung and go limp then perhaps a head but and explosive resistance the person is caught off gaurd. But a strong person get a good grip fast. and lifts you off the ground Shin kicks yes but you end on the ground after. I was taught the best way to get out of an application is just prior to its end point Bear hug is before ful grip is applied You have a chance then to escape it or defend it before it has been completed.  Takes some sensitivity training But its worth the time  A strong person that gets a good bear hug on you can put you out. You can not breath well if your lungs can not expand well.


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 9, 2006)

If the attacker immediately picks you up to throw you, (From DavidCC). 
Hello, Bearhugs and being thrown right away...."yep".. this may be very hard to defend, (From still learning).

This is the rational I started my position with and most folks took exception. This is the type of brear hug technique that is undefendable against. If you've watched Pride, UFC, etc you may have seen one of the combatants picked up and dumped. These are guys that train everyday and are in top shape and they can't defend against it because there's NO TIME. Any time I have seen a bearhug used was either by the police/security to restrain someone. The other times was either someone was pounding on someone while he was being held in a bearhug - still no time to defend because the real attack is coming from another direction or as stated being dumped. Folks can train all they want to in a static position. Do the drop body weight thing, stomp the foot, knuckle pain compliance and so on, but in reality it's time and training that could be spent on something better IMO. 

As for the awareness position, that's all well and good, but to get put into a bearhug in the first place means your awareness was lacking or your trying to grapple with someone who's either quicker and stronger and managed to get you into that position, from which it's doubtful that their just going to hold you there so you can attempt to do something. 

As I stated before, it's easy to defend against something that your at least half way prepared for. Try this at your next training session. Have someone in the class, at some unexpected time in the class, come and grab you and dump you from the rear bearhug position. This is the crux of my positioning on this, it can't be defended against plain and simple.


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## DavidCC (Apr 9, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> If the attacker immediately picks you up to throw you, (From DavidCC).
> Hello, Bearhugs and being thrown right away...."yep".. this may be very hard to defend, (From still learning).
> 
> This is the rational I started my position with and most folks took exception. This is the type of brear hug technique that is undefendable against. If you've watched Pride, UFC, etc you may have seen one of the combatants picked up and dumped. These are guys that train everyday and are in top shape and they can't defend against it because there's NO TIME.
> ...


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 9, 2006)

I think some confusion comes from the fact that the bearhug is being discussed like a punch.  "Defense Against The Punch"...well what *kind* of punch.  A jab, a hook, a straight punch, a hammer first, a...

A bearhug where someone grabs and holds you is a different attack than a bearhug that goes right into a throw is different then someone grabbing you.

The first (physical) line of defense is "don't let the person get your back", second line is "don't let them get a grip".  If they get to that point then whether they hold, grab, or throw, it's now in a different area.  A grab you can break, a drag you can break, a throw, well..at somepoint you may be just along for the ride.  Like a hip throw, like a takedown, even like a punch, there may come a time in the attack where your defense has already failed at an earlier point and the best you can do is wince, try to survive the attack, and move on to your next move

I think Brad's only point is that on the "bearhug-and-throw" by the time you are in the grab it may already be too late and you're only hope is to survive the throw and move on.  I think many other people are making the point that this is not the *only* kind of bearhug attack, and that it's possible to defend before you get to that point as well,but there seems to be a bit of ambiguity in what is really meant by a 'bearhug' that is causing a bit of confusion


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## Robert Lee (Apr 9, 2006)

I guess a bear hug used to slam a person to the ground Does have a less defence option. then one used to hold and sqeeze. Either way best to excape before the hold is complete And we can train and train but when something happens Its that time only that you put it together or not. skill, and heart have to be used in a fight. And alot of heart sometimes out ways skill level. What happens fast has to be delt with fast At that time you do not think you just do.


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## still learning (Apr 10, 2006)

Hello, One of the rules in martial arts is " he who can get the other person off balance will gain the advantage."

When you bearhug someone and take them off their feet....the person who is being lifted has no balance and is off guard.  The attacker has the advantage here.

Now it you weight 100 lbs and lift a person who is 300lbs up..the 300 pounder may gain the advantage.  Law of gravity may work here.

bottom line...he will get smash.....?   ......doing some heavy thinking on this problem..........Aloha


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## green meanie (Apr 10, 2006)

I've been in wrestling and ju jitsu a long time. Long enough that if someone comes up behind me and tries to grab me I automatically go into 'wrestling mode' and start fighting back until I realize what's going on. Regardless of where my attention is you can't pick me up and slam me fast enough without my auto-pilot kicking in along the way. I'll automatically start grapevining a leg before my toes leave the floor. It just takes a lot of time and a lot of practice to deeply ingrain these responses. Nobody said it was gonna happen quickly or easily but to say that there's no chance or no defense is just wrong. My two cents...


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## shesulsa (Apr 10, 2006)

_*Moderator note:  
*_
Discussion regarding reputation has been moved to the Member Support Forum.  Further discussion on reputation should be continued there.  

Please return to the original topic.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Senior Moderator


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## MJS (Apr 10, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> As for the awareness position, that's all well and good, but to get put into a bearhug in the first place means your awareness was lacking or your trying to grapple with someone who's either quicker and stronger and managed to get you into that position, from which it's doubtful that their just going to hold you there so you can attempt to do something.


 
Thats what I'm talking about.  Two things can be looked at. 1) Why did we allow this to happen?  Lack of awareness.  2) As I said, the defense should begin as soon as the hands are felt.  Waiting until you're being lifted up isn't the time to be thinking, "Hmmm...what am I gonna do now???"



> As I stated before, it's easy to defend against something that your at least half way prepared for. Try this at your next training session. Have someone in the class, at some unexpected time in the class, come and grab you and dump you from the rear bearhug position. This is the crux of my positioning on this, it can't be defended against plain and simple.


 
As I said before, everyone trains differently.  That being said, unless you've seen how everyone trains, I'd think that saying a defense is not possible would be incorrect.

Mike


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## MJS (Apr 10, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I've been in wrestling and ju jitsu a long time. Long enough that if someone comes up behind me and tries to grab me I automatically go into 'wrestling mode' and start fighting back until I realize what's going on. Regardless of where my attention is you can't pick me up and slam me fast enough without my auto-pilot kicking in along the way. I'll automatically start grapevining a leg before my toes leave the floor. It just takes a lot of time and a lot of practice to deeply ingrain these responses. Nobody said it was gonna happen quickly or easily but to say that there's no chance or no defense is just wrong. My two cents...


 
Exactly!!  This is why I'm a big advocate of adding in some grappling into my training.  Personally, this is something that everyone should be doing.

Mike


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 11, 2006)

*green meanie*
_I've been in wrestling and ju jitsu a long time. Long enough that if someone comes up behind me and tries to grab me I automatically go into 'wrestling mode' and start fighting back until I realize what's going on. Regardless of where my attention is you can't pick me up and slam me fast enough without my auto-pilot kicking in along the way. _

I'd like to offer the benefit of the doubt on this subject to your statement, but I've seen the opposite. It has nothing to do with the extent of someone's training or warrior mindset or anything else that may fit the situation. This particular technique being applied, a rear bearhug and slam is not defendable period. The reason.......There is no time to react. When one is grabbed from behind, the pull back and lift motion is less than a second, this includes the grab. Now if anyone thinks their that fast and can react in that time frame, then I'm sure we can get you a seat at the next Justice League awards dinner next to Wonder Woman. OK a little fun there, but don't take my word for it, go and do it or have it done to yourself. Ah!, but there is a caveat to this endeavor......it must be done with a realistic application, which means that you don't know it's coming. Also, the realism includes someone big enough to effectively lift you off the ground and slam you, for again this will be the type of person who will actually use the attack. 

PS: PLEASE do it on the mat(s), if you decide to try it for yourself. 

One must realize, that there are physical attacks in this world that are just not defendable against, even for a very trained person. Now put that statement into perspective for the average person who trains.


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## green meanie (Apr 11, 2006)

That's fine, Brad. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it... and it's more than obvious at this point that nothing in this world is going to change it. However, my experiences in this area suggest otherwise. I have had real life experience in this situation on more than one occasion and what happened is exactly how I described it. And lord knows there's no shortage of people in this world who are more than capable of picking me up if I let them. So I'm sorry you've decided to dig in your heels on this one, you're missing an excellent opportunity to add a defense to your arsenal.

Regards,
green meanie


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## MJS (Apr 11, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> That's fine, Brad. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it... and it's more than obvious at this point that nothing in this world is going to change it. However, my experiences in this area suggest otherwise. I have had real life experience in this situation on more than one occasion and what happened is exactly how I described it. And lord knows there's no shortage of people in this world who are more than capable of picking me up if I let them. So I'm sorry you've decided to dig in your heels on this one, you're missing an excellent opportunity to add a defense to your arsenal.
> 
> Regards,
> green meanie


 
From a grappling perspective, I'd be interested in hearing other methods of a counter.  I know that you mentioned the grapevine of the legs.

Look forward to your reply.:ultracool 

Mike


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## RoninPimp (Apr 11, 2006)

Brad, you're speaking in absolutes. A physical confrontation is anything but. Your opinion is also opposite to mine and several others here based on our experiance. How do you explain that?

MJS, reaching through your own legs for one of the attackers is a possibility. So is gripping in a Kimura grip and using that to pry them off. Or a standing switch. Just about every throw or takedown found in any grappling style is possible if you're skilled enough.

The first rule is to get your hips away from his as hard and as quickly as possible. He needs to pull your hips tight to pick you up. Interupt that and you have a chance.


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## MJS (Apr 11, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> MJS, reaching through your own legs for one of the attackers is a possibility. So is gripping in a Kimura grip and using that to pry them off. A standing switch. Just about every throw or takedown found in any grappling style is possible if you're skilled enough.


 
Thanks for the reply!  I have a few techniques that I can choose from.  Reaching for their leg is one of them.  Its been a while since I've done much rolling.  Definately an area I don't want to neglect.



> The first rule is to get your hips away from his as hard and as quickly as possible. He needs to pull your hips tight to pick you up. Interupt that and you have a chance.


 
Absolutely!!  Going to be hard to get a lift if their hips are not near you.

Mike


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## green meanie (Apr 11, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> MJS, reaching through your own legs for one of the attackers is a possibility.


 
I've usually have my reservations about bending over and trying to pick up their leg. You're a little off-balance and at risk of being drove forward and into ground. But, I have hooked my foot behind theirs and used my leg to pull their leg ahead a bit and picked it up as they were falling back.

I've also reached through my legs for it and gone right into a knee bar off of it before. I guess I don't mind it as much when I'm doing it to myself.



			
				RoninPimp said:
			
		

> So is gripping in a Kimura grip and using that to pry them off. Or a standing switch.


 
Or any combination of the two -the switch and the kimura work well together. 



			
				RoninPimp said:
			
		

> The first rule is to get your hips away from his as hard and as quickly as possible. He needs to pull your hips tight to pick you up. Interupt that and you have a chance.


 
Absolutely. An excellent point. Keep moving! Force him to keep having to draw you in -at the very least it buys you more time.

-gm


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## Cryozombie (Apr 11, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Who is being attacked here....most likely either a child or a female. Do you think that they will either have enough time or power available to defend against this?.......Not likely.


 
Yeah, damn those poor fragile women, all too silly and helpless to protect themselves... locked in the kicthen barefoot and pregnant they should be... outside is full of big scary men who they cant stop...


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## Ceicei (Apr 11, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yeah, damn those poor fragile women, all too silly and helpless to protect themselves... locked in the kicthen barefoot and pregnant they should be... outside is full of big scary men who they cant stop...



  You're funny.

- Ceicei


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## green meanie (Apr 11, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yeah, damn those poor fragile women, all too silly and helpless to protect themselves... locked in the kicthen barefoot and pregnant they should be... outside is full of big scary men who they cant stop...


 
:rofl:


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## BlackSheep (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey MJS

Did you read my first post?

The video of the switch is on the ground but, watch how the bottom wrestler uses his arm trapping the top wrestlers arm and with his hand hooked behind the top guy&#8217;s knee. The foot work is called a hip heist, for doing the switch standing, the foot work is different but the use of the arm and hand is the same. I think doing it standing is easier but you have less time so you must be fast.


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## MJS (Apr 12, 2006)

BlackSheep said:
			
		

> Hey MJS
> 
> Did you read my first post?
> 
> The video of the switch is on the ground but, watch how the bottom wrestler uses his arm trapping the top wrestlers arm and with his hand hooked behind the top guys knee. The foot work is called a hip heist, for doing the switch standing, the foot work is different but the use of the arm and hand is the same. I think doing it standing is easier but you have less time so you must be fast.


 
Yes, I just went back and look at them a bit closer.  Thanks for posting them!!

Again, I can't stress enough, the importance of having some grappling incorporated into ones training.  Having an understanding of this, will, IMO, certainly aid in a defense.

Mike


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## Ross (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi guys,

Great thread, although some of you guys do need a reality check with some of your suggestions. The spitting one, was that posted on the April Fools Day or something? 

Ok, a couple of things you need to consider.
a) as a rule, the person attacking you is going to be bigger than you, 
b) no attack is static - when you are attacked from the front or rear with a bear hug there will be significant forward or rear momentum. You must absorbe and resist this first before even attempting to escape.

There as several ways that you survive the initial assult (some people will know what I mean), but if we take an isolated movement that you can all try from a static grap with the intention to lift.

Using a partner attacking with a rear bear hug - 

The attack 
Attacker grabs with both feet slightly outside those of the practioner, knees bent. Overarm grab, pinning the arms to the sides a little lower than chest level. Try to lift.

(At this point they should lift the student with ease)

Student
Bring your left hand up and across your body to your right shoulder - lifting the attackers left elbow so that their left elbow is higher than their right elbow.

Attacker
Now try and lift.

If done correctly they will not be able to lift you - when they readjust their hold/grab student strikes.

Have fun


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## green meanie (Apr 13, 2006)

Ross said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> 
> Great thread, although some of you guys do need a reality check with some of your suggestions. The spitting one, was that posted on the April Fools Day or something?


 
Spitting? Where was that? I must've missed it.


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 13, 2006)

b) no attack is static - when you are attacked from the front or rear with a bear hug there will be significant forward or rear momentum. You must absorbe and resist this first before even attempting to escape.

This is my positioning. When you are grabbed and picked up and slammed, all within a seconds time frame........how in the world are you going to have enough time to absorbe and resist? You state that no attack is static, which I agree with, but then you go on to go into specifics on a particular counter, which will take additional time to develope, of which there is none (time that is), so it seems somewhat contradictory. For some unexplained reasoning, most folks here either can't fathom the time element involved or just like to pull chains for the heck of it. It make no difference how many years of training someone may have, there are things that can't be defended against and this one particular attack happens to be one of them if the attacker is bent on serious harm to you. 

To answer the question:   Brad, you're speaking in absolutes. A physical confrontation is anything but. Your opinion is also opposite to mine and several others here based on our experiance. How do you explain that?

Your the only ones with experience? Yes I am speaking in an absolute on nothing more than this one particular attack, but in conjunction with this is the overall training against all the variables against a bearhug. A physical confrontation is not static, as stated above, but yet almost all of the defenses offered need to be in at least a semi static position to afford time to attempt a defense..........so to me that construes a contradiction. We can bang heads all day long on this issue. You and company have your positioning and I like wise have mine. I wish you all well with your training and earnestly hope that none of you ever encounter this attack on the street. 

Respectfully :asian:


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## still learning (Apr 13, 2006)

Hello, This a really a tuff one here folks.  Will you be able to defend against a bearhug?

I guess it depends, it seem, because many of you believe you can and some don't think you will have the time if lifted and slam right away.

So the question becomes? Is it possible to defend against the bearhug if someone grabs you, and quickly starts to lift you?

Some of us will agree" it is possible"....reaction time will always vary person to person....can we dodge a baseball thrown at us by a pitcher...sometimes...other times you will get to walk....

Alot of things is life is possible...people have survive amazing things that happen to them.  Which we agree before would be impossible...right!

...I believe it is possilbe...that is why we practice all our techniques.. it is possible to defend against most attacks...off course..it depends...Aloha


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## James Kovacich (Apr 13, 2006)

Still Learnings post is good. Being grabbed is one of those situations that way to many people think they are prepared for or entirely ignore to train in this position in a realistic fashion. 

Whatever combo# you try, it's probably to late. But I'm not saying the bearhug is the end-all either.

The answer is training in ranges and positions that may not be a part of our primary style. I start my students in the clinch for a lot of drills because that is where the fight is and we need to be able to stop the opponent before doing the damage. 

It's nice to think "I'll do this or I'll do that" but before you can do "this or that" you need to know that you won't be on your back.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 13, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> b) no attack is static - when you are attacked from the front or rear with a bear hug there will be significant forward or rear momentum. You must absorbe and resist this first before even attempting to escape.
> 
> This is my positioning. When you are grabbed and picked up and slammed, all within a seconds time frame........how in the world are you going to have enough time to absorbe and resist? You state that no attack is static, which I agree with, but then you go on to go into specifics on a particular counter, which will take additional time to develope, of which there is none (time that is), so it seems somewhat contradictory. For some unexplained reasoning, most folks here either can't fathom the time element involved or just like to pull chains for the heck of it. It make no difference how many years of training someone may have, there are things that can't be defended against and this one particular attack happens to be one of them if the attacker is bent on serious harm to you.
> 
> ...


-The defenses I know and train from the bear hug don't require "a semi static position". I agree that if you get blindsided you might not have a chance though.


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## still learning (Apr 13, 2006)

Hello, Try watching Judo,(my son does is on the High School Judo team). Everything is about throws.  They have alot of different ones. Each one can be defend against at. .. Yet people get thrown all the time. They have a form of bearhug...and the attacker can be thrown down quickly too!

It is possible to defend...it depends......Aloha

"Depends" (is the recommended under pants for those who need them)..see your nearest grocery store.


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## Adept (Apr 13, 2006)

I'm a pretty big guy, at 5'10" and 218 pounds. I have a friend who is 6'3" and 360 pounds, and it's not all fat. I mean, sure, he's a fat guy, but he's also strong as hell.

He can pick me up in a bearhug with my arms trapped by my sides, and drop me on the floor in less than a second. I can't do much to get out of this bearhug but wriggle like crazy. His massive size keeps me far enough away from his face and legs to prevent effective kicking or headbutting, my arms are pinned, and well, thats pretty much all my weapons gone.

But, he can't do much to me while he has me.

The bearhug I worry about is the one that is quickly followed by the hugger's comrade smashing a beer bottle into the huggee's face.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 13, 2006)

Knee and strike towards the groin with arms pinned if you can grab the guys stuff then grab it and squeeze hard they will let go.  There are tons of options from bear hugs.  I wish I had all the options I teach on video.  What about side bearhugs?  Anyone teach defenses or have defenses from those other than me?


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## still learning (Apr 14, 2006)

Hello, My son just came home from his High School Judo practice.  We had a discussion about bearhugs.  Because they are already training and aware that once a person grabs you from behind (bearhug) they automatic do several things, it depends on what they feel is happenig.

Sprawl you leg forward,not to be lifted, turn your body and throw them, reach with one arm under the attacker leg, and so on. (They do not do body strikes).  Keep in mind this is during practice and they must beware of all attacks.  Now once an while if you are caught off guard...down you go.

For someone who is not expecting a bearhug....the sitution could be different.  Each one of us, may be caught off guard.  False crack..most times are successful.  

Lots of comments here.....great talking to all of you....good nite and Aloha

 PS:My son when his was in Elementary school his friend bearhug him...his reaction right away...head butt backwards...didn't know it was a friend.
The boy's head hurt for a while...never did this again too.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 14, 2006)

Tahts a good point about being caught off guard.  Everyone at one point or another is off guard whether something serious is on their mind, they are tired or something else is botehring them.  We as martial artists are taught always be aware but that is not always the case.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 14, 2006)

How true! As always, stay calm, go with the flow, and do what ever is necessary.


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## thescottishdude (Apr 14, 2006)

if your lookign from a grappling perspective you would want to wrestle. but with arts like karate and kung fu that are quite light on wrestling you'd want to break out and fght with fists and feet.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 14, 2006)

Adept said:
			
		

> But, he can't do much to me while he has me.
> 
> .


If he has you from the rear (arms do not need to be trapped), he places his left foot alongside your left heel. He steps to the right with his right (slightly, just enough) foot while simultaneaously pulling you backward to the ground, while rotating his body to the left. he will fall on top of you everytime.

It sounds like a lot but it's the simplest takedown.

From the front or side the rear is attainable. There are plenty of takedowns but the one I described is a clean takedown.


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## green meanie (Apr 14, 2006)

akja said:
			
		

> If he has you from the rear (arms do not need to be trapped), he places his left foot alongside your left heel. He steps to the right with his right (slightly, just enough) foot while simultaneaously pulling you backward to the ground, while rotating his body to the left. he will fall on top of you everytime.
> 
> It sounds like a lot but it's the simplest takedown.
> 
> From the front or side the rear is attainable. There are plenty of takedowns but the one I described is a clean takedown.


 
In wrestling we call that a back heel trip and yes, its simple and its clean.
However, unless the arms are trapped it's relatively easy to counter with a short / inside switch.


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## MJS (Apr 14, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> b) no attack is static - when you are attacked from the front or rear with a bear hug there will be significant forward or rear momentum. You must absorbe and resist this first before even attempting to escape.
> 
> This is my positioning. When you are grabbed and picked up and slammed, all within a seconds time frame........how in the world are you going to have enough time to absorbe and resist? You state that no attack is static, which I agree with, but then you go on to go into specifics on a particular counter, which will take additional time to develope, of which there is none (time that is), so it seems somewhat contradictory. For some unexplained reasoning, most folks here either can't fathom the time element involved or just like to pull chains for the heck of it. It make no difference how many years of training someone may have, there are things that can't be defended against and this one particular attack happens to be one of them if the attacker is bent on serious harm to you.
> 
> ...


 
Brad,

We're all certainly entitled to our opinions. I would like to comment on a few things. As I said before, it seems to me, that you're basing judgement on the success of this defense only on what you have seen. Please keep in mind, that just because you have not had success with this defense, does not mean that there are others out there who have successfully defended against this attack.

I'd like to ask you this...why do we bother to train at all? I mean, if we stop and think about it, the same reasoning you're using for the bearhug, can be said of pretty much any attack and defense on our part. I could train until I'm blue in the face against a double leg takedown, but going up against someone like Randy Couture, chances are, I'd end up on the ground pretty fast. Does this mean that I should give up training against that type of attack? Of course not, for the simple reason that everyone we may face, is not going to be a trained fighter. Yes, we should always gear our training to be the best we can be, but again, if faced with a knife, the person may not be a Filipino Master. Everyone throwing a punch is not going to be Mike Tyson Jr. In the bearhug scenario, we're 'assuming' that the person is going to be bigger, stronger and capable of lifting and throwing us. This may not always be the case.

As for the defenses listed...we need to keep in mind, that like any technique in the system we study, they should not be something set in stone, something that we have to do step by step. Instead, we should be using these techniques as a foundation to provide us with ideas and ultimately, something that we use to come up with a reaction to the situation being presented to us at that given time. 

I wish you the best in your training.

Mike


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## Ross (Apr 15, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Brad,
> 
> We're all certainly entitled to our opinions. I would like to comment on a few things. As I said before, it seems to me, that you're basing judgement on the success of this defense only on what you have seen. Please keep in mind, that just because you have not had success with this defense, does not mean that there are others out there who have successfully defended against this attack.
> 
> ...


 
Mike you said exactly what I was thinking. 

Brad, I saw that you train in TKD which, as far as I am aware, does not have much training in these types of attack. This is not an attack on you or your art - and if it comes across like that please - I do not mean it to!

There are ways to resist the attack, and I totally agree that there will be occasions when you will taken completely off guard. However, there are instances where you can have both arms pinned and attacked from the front or rear with momentum and to survive the initial assult. If you cannot see some ways within your own system that would work effectively (and I mean realistically as well), look around and see what works for other people. 

We never get to rest on our laurels do we!

It is possible to make yourself impossible to pick up through specific movements, stances and body alignment (and attacker misalignment). However, as you correctly mentioned, these need to be taught, practised and practised again. Believe me I train with a lot of big guys, truckers, bikers, doormen. If it's going to work with them, it's going to work against them it's going to work.

But then that's what we're all here for.

Regards Sir,

Ross


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## green meanie (Apr 15, 2006)

Well said!


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 15, 2006)

I'd like to ask you this...why do we bother to train at all? I mean, if we stop and think about it, the same reasoning you're using for the bearhug, can be said of pretty much any attack and defense on our part. I could train until I'm blue in the face against a double leg takedown, but going up against someone like Randy Couture,

OK. we're compareing apples to oranges here. We're not in the ring with a so-called trained fighter, we're on the street in a real world situation. 
For the life of me, I can't understand how folks can keep missing the point on this. A rear bearhug grab and slam is SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend. 

We train so we can confront an aggressor if need be and hopefully come away safe. That dosen't mean that it's going to happen that way, but in training we at least give ourselves the "fighting chance" - pun intended. As for the TKD influence, we study old school TKD which has throws, takedown, jointlocks and so on. So we have gone thru all of the standard attack situations and grabs. Thru trial and error, we have found that this particular attack in question is real trouble. A sucker punch - no defense...why? because you don't know it's coming. Anyone disagree with this assessment? If you agree with this situation, then how in the world can you disagree with a come from behind, grab and slam all within a seconds time frame and you don't know it's coming. I fail to see the difference.


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## MJS (Apr 15, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> I'd like to ask you this...why do we bother to train at all? I mean, if we stop and think about it, the same reasoning you're using for the bearhug, can be said of pretty much any attack and defense on our part. I could train until I'm blue in the face against a double leg takedown, but going up against someone like Randy Couture,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 16, 2006)

I agree there can be zero delay in reaction time on a bearhug or any grab for that matter.  Punches you have a very slight playtime in it since you can move out of its range and then counter.


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## still learning (Apr 16, 2006)

Hello, We are still at it?  ....Lets take a count...only real situtions here?

As the time goes by..remember this forum.  When the bearhug happen and a person try to slam you right away....please list your results.

Hopefully...one day there will be enough real/truthful information...to decide if it is possible or impossible the defend this? (now if you die....from the slam...you do not need to answer this).  So we may not get all the answers because of death, only those with no-injury and injury can apply here. Equal opportunity is provided

Lets wait and see? ........Aloha


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## green meanie (Apr 16, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> For the life of me, I can't understand how folks can keep missing the point on this. A rear bearhug grab and slam is SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend.


 
I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend. I have been in this situation on more than a few occasions and I have defended myself against it exactly the way I described. That counter, and other counters that were suggested by experienced grapplers, were for your benefit and an opportunity to add a real defense to your arsenal. All it would've took was an open mind and a willingness to practice and train until you got the hang of it. But you have made up your mind on this one and have already decided that it cannot be done so, on this one, the learning stops here. That's unfortunate but maybe someday you'll come around. I'm going to leave you with a couple of quotes from people who express a few points much better than I can. Best of luck to you in your training.

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." -Chinese Proverb

"Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours." -Richard Bach

"All receive advice. Only the wise profit from it." -Syrus


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## Henderson (Apr 16, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend. I have been in this situation on more than a few occasions and I have defended myself against it exactly the way I described. That counter, and other counters that were suggested by experienced grapplers, were for your benefit and an opportunity to add a real defense to your arsenal. All it would've took was an open mind and a willingness to practice and train until you got the hang of it. But you have made up your mind on this one and have already decided that it cannot be done so, on this one, the learning stops here. That's unfortunate but maybe someday you'll come around. I'm going to leave you with a couple of quotes from people who express a few points much better than I can. Best of luck to you in your training.


 
Very well said.


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 16, 2006)

With the bearhug, the defense needs to begin as soon as contact is felt.

I really don't want to get mundane on this but, but reaction time to anything is predicated on several variables, of which awareness is number one. It is extremly doubtful that one will be aware of being attacked from the rear, otherwise the bearhug will not be successful. Again I refer to any attack that you don't know is coming, ie: sucker punch, kick or what have you.

 I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK.

Apparently you are speaking for everyone because you disagree with my position. I don't know how or with whom you train, but a rear bearhug and slam is very quick. Now there are some folks here who have seemed to gotten my point and are in quasi-agreement with the elements pertaining to this attack. As for you being in that situation many times and succeded in defending, good for you, I'm glad you were successful, but I question the intent and where this may have happened. For eveyone that we did this too and in return had it done to ourselves, not only from our school and discipline but others who were of different disciplines all came to the same conclusion. Now I will conceed that the grab must be effectively secured, but that dosen't take a whole heck of a lot to do, or then yes you will have a modicum of time to react. But if and when the grab/hug is done right and you are lifted at the same time - yes we're talking milliseconds here - you are being pulled backwards and sidewards and being lifted all at the same time. You can postulate that you can defend against this attack, but if it is done for real, there is NO TIME - repeat NO TIME to react/defend. Just as there is no time to react/defend against a sucker punch, the bearhug slam will not take but a few milliseconds more than that punch. But apparently since we weren't talking about pinches, I can't use that as an example, only those that disagree with me can use any examples they wish.

Now a quote from our Eastern book of wisdom; Chinese saying - "Man who sit on tack, soon raise to great heights".   

OK, the debate is finished. We will agree to disagree . :asian:


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## still learning (Apr 16, 2006)

Hello, In our school we train, no matter what the attack is...react to it..don't spend time thinking about it...react...

Is it possible to defend against a rear bearhug and been lifted almost the same time....VERY POSSIBLE!!!!

The same for a rear grab to shoulder..false crack attack...turn-duck-block/hit same time...will it always work...possible/and  can be not so lucky.

Jackie chan gets away with the rear bearhugs with lift and so does Jet Li...works in the movies. Why not the real world?

Can one defend against a rear bearhug and lifted? ....Yes and Yes..unless not so fast....then the slam and blam....thank-you man!

For those whose mind is made up (to believe it cannot be defended)...you must think many other things are impossible too....

an open mind...can create new wonders....one must believe it is possible to achieve the unachievable....to succeed.

The world was once known to be flat...today we have flat TV's. (Huh?)

Think of it this way...for every attack (strike) is it possible for it to make contact, yes!
!...at the same time..it is also possible to block it, yes!

There will always be exceptions:  except for this one...Aloha


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## JamesB (Apr 16, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> I really don't want to get mundane on this but, but reaction time to anything is predicated on several variables, of which awareness is number one. It is extremly doubtful that one will be aware of being attacked from the rear, otherwise the bearhug will not be successful. Again I refer to any attack that you don't know is coming, ie: sucker punch, kick or what have you.


 
agreed.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Apparently you are speaking for everyone because you disagree with my position. I don't know how or with whom you train, but a rear bearhug and slam is very quick.


 
which is it? a rear-bearhug or a slam? you can't have both at the same time, the bearhug attack must come first, the pickup second *after* the attacker has reset his feet and body from "frontal-assault" mode to  "lift-up" mode.  The slam will come after the lift, but the attacker should not even get this far. It is very easy to sense this shift in the attacker's body as his arms will be tight around you.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Now there are some folks here who have seemed to gotten my point and are in quasi-agreement with the elements pertaining to this attack. As for you being in that situation many times and succeded in defending, good for you, I'm glad you were successful, but I question the intent and where this may have happened.


 
This is what I understand to be is involved in a bearhug *attack*, and is how I have been taught by my instructor:

A bearhug isn't a sporting manouver taken out of wrestling, it is a full-on, aggressive, violent assault. In order for the attacker to surprise you he must utilize significant body momentum to take you 'off-guard'. So the first phase of the attack is actually a 'bump' forwards as the attacker makes contact with you. He isn't going to quietly sneak up behind you, gently put his arms around you and then begin the 'attack' from there. 



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Now I will conceed that the grab must be effectively secured, but that dosen't take a whole heck of a lot to do, or then yes you will have a modicum of time to react.


 
the attacker has 'bumped' you forwards and even with his arms around you, you easily have enough time to apply specific footwork + body postures to absorb the attacker's momentum, at the same time misaligning his body making it impossible to pick you off the ground once he finally gets to this stage. it works, even if the attacker is significantly bigger/stronger/heavier than you.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> But if and when the grab/hug is done right and you are lifted at the same time - yes we're talking milliseconds here - you are being pulled backwards and sidewards and being lifted all at the same time.


 
If the hug is done 'right' as you say, then you must take into account the momentum of the attacker as he makes contact. For a realistic bearhug *attack*, the grab/hug and the lift *cannot* be executed at the same time. They are distinct phases of the attack in their own right.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> You can postulate that you can defend against this attack, but if it is done for real, there is NO TIME - repeat NO TIME to react/defend.


 
I don't agree with this statement, in my experience there is plenty of time to react due to the nature of the attack itself.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> We will agree to disagree . :asian:


 
agreed 

james


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## MJS (Apr 16, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> With the bearhug, the defense needs to begin as soon as contact is felt.
> 
> I really don't want to get mundane on this but, but reaction time to anything is predicated on several variables, of which awareness is number one. It is extremly doubtful that one will be aware of being attacked from the rear, otherwise the bearhug will not be successful. Again I refer to any attack that you don't know is coming, ie: sucker punch, kick or what have you.


 
You're still missing the point, but JamesB has pointed it out very well.  The lift will not come before the arms are fully wrapped, and the body must be in proper position in order to lift.



> I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK.
> 
> *Apparently you are speaking for everyone because you disagree with my position.* I don't know how or with whom you train, but a rear bearhug and slam is very quick. Now there are some folks here who have seemed to gotten my point and are in quasi-agreement with the elements pertaining to this attack. As for you being in that situation many times and succeded in defending, good for you, I'm glad you were successful, but I question the intent and where this may have happened. For eveyone that we did this too and in return had it done to ourselves, not only from our school and discipline but others who were of different disciplines all came to the same conclusion. Now I will conceed that the grab must be effectively secured, but that dosen't take a whole heck of a lot to do, or then yes you will have a modicum of time to react. But if and when the grab/hug is done right and you are lifted at the same time - yes we're talking milliseconds here - you are being pulled backwards and sidewards and being lifted all at the same time. You can postulate that you can defend against this attack, but if it is done for real, there is NO TIME - repeat NO TIME to react/defend. Just as there is no time to react/defend against a sucker punch, the bearhug slam will not take but a few milliseconds more than that punch. But apparently since we weren't talking about pinches, I can't use that as an example, only those that disagree with me can use any examples they wish.


 
Apparently you are doing the same!  





> OK, the debate is finished. We will agree to disagree . :asian:


 
Apparently it is finished, because you fail to see any reasoning other than your own!

Mike


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## Brad Dunne (Apr 16, 2006)

OK folks, this is my last posting on the subject - promise!

I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly. Trained fighters, in the throws of a combatant mindset, were not able to protect themselves from this technique. Now put this on a different level, someone grabs you from behind and your were unaware it was coming, and note* - they don't have to rush into you and push you forward off balance either. You get wraped, lifted and pulled backwards all in the blink of eye. There is no grab then time to proceed to the lift and then time on to the slam, it's all done within a seconds time frame. If you feel that you can defend against this attack, more power to you, I just hope you never have to for real.

There are some absolutes in this world and this includes the martial arts. I see no one disputes the ability to not defend against the sucker punch. Why is that? Because it happens so quickly, there's no time to react and there was no awareness that it was coming. The rear bearhug/slam falls into the same equation and within a fast enough time frame to be aligned with the sucker punch example. I'm not closed minded to learning, just the opposite. I look for things that will give folks trouble and attempt to see if there is/are better ways to defend. This particular attack stands out as a major problem.


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## JamesB (Apr 16, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly.


 
so you're basing your opinion on something you watched in UFC? a sport, comprising two competitors with a well defined set of rules? I'm not disputing that these guys can fight, but the nature of the attack is very different when competing.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Trained fighters, in the throws of a combatant mindset, were not able to protect themselves from this technique. Now put this on a different level, someone grabs you from behind and your were unaware it was coming, and note* - they don't have to rush into you and push you forward off balance either. You get wraped, lifted and pulled backwards all in the blink of eye.


 
you are still failing to take into account the momentum of the attacker as he makes contact. This is not a sport, this is a violent, criminal assault. The *attacker* is not your opponent, he has a very different goal in mind when he attempts the bearhug.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> There are some absolutes in this world and this includes the martial arts. I see no one disputes the ability to not defend against the sucker punch. Why is that?


 
I dispute it. Self-defence begins with an awareness of one's environment. 



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> I'm not closed minded to learning, just the opposite.


 
then learn a Martial Art that teaches you how to defend yourself. There are plently of people on this forum that can give advise on this subject.



			
				Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> I look for things that will give folks trouble and attempt to see if there is/are better ways to defend. This particular attack stands out as a major problem.


 
It is an apparent problem for *you*, yet you assume that everyone else suffers the same limitations?


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 16, 2006)

Keep in mind the UFC does not allow groin strikes or grabs or tears.  I have thrown a few people by reaction with being grabbed and them trying to take me down quickly.  Did the throw look pretty no way but it worked.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 16, 2006)

> I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly.



Umm .. yes, I've seen folks successfully caught with a rear bearhug-to-suplex attack in the UFC.  I've also seen fighters successfully *defend* against that same technique on just as many occasions.  Successful defenses have included grapevining the thrower's legs, moving the hips down and away from the attacker's hips, followed by breaking the attacker's grip and turning, and sinking the hips while simultaneously counterattacking with a kimura.  Just because you've seen the attack _sometimes_ be successful, doesn't mean that it's _always_ effective.

Of course, a self-defense situation is somewhat different.  If the attacker actually manages a complete surprise from behind, that is a huge advantage for the attacker, regardless of the attack.  As the defender, your odds are much better if you at least detect the attacker a moment before contact, even if it's not in time to prevent the bearhug from starting.  If you are caught completely by surprise ... well, you'd better hope that a) the attacker isn't a skilled wrestler or b) you yourself are a world-class grappler who will react in time despite the surprise.  Fortunately, most attackers will not be skilled wrestlers, which gives you a moment's opportunity to counter the attack.

Since the original question covered all sorts of bearhugs, let's examine the permutations:

1) Front bearhug, over the arms.  Thank you, you've just given me double underhooks.  This gives me a choice of takedowns.

2) Front bearhug, under the arms.  The biggest danger here is being bent over backwards and taken down.  This can happpen very quickly if the attacker knows what he's doing.  To prevent this, sag the hips backward and push the attacker's face back with both hands.  Once you've broken his grip, you can transition to striking.

3) Rear bearhug, under the arms.  If the attacker knows how to suplex, this is the most dangerous.  You've only got a moment to get your hips away and fight for hand control to break his grip.  If you are lifted, try to grapevine the legs. If the attacker doesn't know how to suplex, you've got lots of options, but try to establish a safe base with your hips low before you get crazy with the striking.

4) Rear bearhug, over the arms.  This position makes it harder for the attacker to lift you, especially if you drop your hips low.  I can generally get out of this position, but it usually involves playing games with my opponent's balance.  Some backwards slaps or upward heel kicks to the groin can sometimes be usuful, depending on what is open.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2006)

Tony Dismukes said:
			
		

> Umm .. yes, I've seen folks successfully caught with a rear bearhug-to-suplex attack in the UFC. I've also seen fighters successfully *defend* against that same technique on just as many occasions. Successful defenses have included grapevining the thrower's legs, moving the hips down and away from the attacker's hips, followed by breaking the attacker's grip and turning, and sinking the hips while simultaneously counterattacking with a kimura. Just because you've seen the attack _sometimes_ be successful, doesn't mean that it's _always_ effective.
> 
> Of course, a self-defense situation is somewhat different. If the attacker actually manages a complete surprise from behind, that is a huge advantage for the attacker, regardless of the attack. As the defender, your odds are much better if you at least detect the attacker a moment before contact, even if it's not in time to prevent the bearhug from starting. If you are caught completely by surprise ... well, you'd better hope that a) the attacker isn't a skilled wrestler or b) you yourself are a world-class grappler who will react in time despite the surprise. Fortunately, most attackers will not be skilled wrestlers, which gives you a moment's opportunity to counter the attack.
> 
> ...


 
All good points Tony. Just remember everyone that there are no absolutes, what one person does the next person might not. Some people can probably lift and slam almost immediately with little or no time to defend. In this situation you need to be aware and if that breaks down then grapevine his legs to try and prevent the slam. (tough to do) However, not everyone can bump, wrap, lift and slam almost immediately, so you might have a chance to apply multiple options at this point. There are just no absolutes. Good thread by the way, filled with good posts!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## still learning (Apr 16, 2006)

Hello, "OK' let say it is not possible to escape this bearhug lift and slam.  Later on you found out it someone had escape from being slam. Does this still make it impossible to defend against?

Lots of people think certain thing in life is not possible like the 4 minute mile...swim across the English Channel, dive to hundred plus feet down on one breath....(.many divers here do this regularly here).

Just because you cannot defend against it...doesn't mean it is impossible to escape this bearhug lift and slam. I'am positive some people are able to escape this?

No to reactions will be the same....Aloha

Kinda like which came first? the chicken or the turkey? oops egg?


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## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

Maybe, but, hard to think of. The grab, pick up, and slam is kind of done in one quick move.


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## MJS (Apr 17, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> OK folks, this is my last posting on the subject - promise!
> 
> I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly. Trained fighters, in the throws of a combatant mindset, were not able to protect themselves from this technique.


 
So let me ask you this.  Why are you talking about the UFC when you said this:



> OK. we're compareing apples to oranges here.* We're not in the ring* with a so-called trained fighter, we're on the street in a real world situation.


 
You're basing your decision as to what works/does not work based on the UFC?? My God, this is starting to sound like a thread that was recently locked.  





> Now put this on a different level, someone grabs you from behind and your were unaware it was coming, and note* - they don't have to rush into you and push you forward off balance either. You get wraped, lifted and pulled backwards all in the blink of eye. There is no grab then time to proceed to the lift and then time on to the slam, it's all done within a seconds time frame. If you feel that you can defend against this attack, more power to you, I just hope you never have to for real.


 
So the attacker is going to tip-toe up behind you and just wrap his arms around you???  Again, you're missing the point!  If the attack is going to be violent, like others have said, then yes, there will be forward or backward momentum, based on what JamesB has said.  The arms need to be wrapped and the attackers body needs to be in a proper position...his hips close to yours...in order for a lift to happen.  Reaction needs to happen right away.  



> There are some absolutes in this world and this includes the martial arts. I see no one disputes the ability to not defend against the sucker punch. Why is that? Because it happens so quickly, there's no time to react and there was no awareness that it was coming. The rear bearhug/slam falls into the same equation and within a fast enough time frame to be aligned with the sucker punch example. I'm not closed minded to learning, just the opposite. I look for things that will give folks trouble and attempt to see if there is/are better ways to defend. This particular attack stands out as a major problem.


 
Please go back and read what I posted before.  The punch is going to be harder due to the fact that there is no contact other than the punch hitting your head!  The bearhug will involve contact before a lift and or dump happens.  As I said before, why are we putting ourselves in a situation in which we're not being aware???


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## still learning (Apr 17, 2006)

Hello, It is possible to defend against the sucker punch(yes)....practice and keeping practice for it. 

Next when someone yells "duck" or bomb!, what do you do before thinking about it? ...you move quickly. ..instincts base on past history.

someone toss a ball, you turn to look...some of us will stop and catch the ball...others will get hit.

you are walking and trip ...some of us will catch ourselves..other times ...oops.

There will always be a chance for survival...a chance to defend against it....Nothing can be written in stone here....paper yea? ..but it will not be forever.  

We must believe all attacks can be defended and prevented from going futher.  Is there any other way here? maybe ......Aloha

PS: Great posting guys..your passion shows ....


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## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

The only true defense against a sucker punch is prevention, which includes awareness in the first place. It's called a sucker punch because you feel it before you can respond.


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## Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> The only true defense against a sucker punch is prevention, which includes awareness in the first place. It's called a sucker punch because you feel it before you can respond.


 
Agree with you there. Sucker punches are exactly that - for suckers )

Just kidding - they can catch you but awareness is the only real prevention. They usually originate from some "squaring up" to you obscuring your vision of their hands. Distance, awareness and using your hands as a fence between you and the aggressor.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

At least squaring up get's your attention. You have a chance that way. From what I've seen (and done) there is no squaring up. Just a hit, the flash of light, ears ringing etc..


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## Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> so you're basing your opinion on something you watched in UFC? a sport, comprising two competitors with a well defined set of rules? I'm not disputing that these guys can fight, but the nature of the attack is very different when competing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Hello, Try this...someone bearhugs you from behind...instinctly head butt backwards as soon as you feel the grab...?

Let us know your results?

Those who are caught off guard? ...most likely will be toss...

That is why martial arts is about repetition...doing it over and over till it becomes instinct memory. Doing it without thinking.....so when grab from behind like a bear hug...headbutt backwards as soon as you feel the grab....It works!

Can it be defended!  ...You can bet your life on it....Aloha


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## thescottishdude (Apr 18, 2006)

failing that, kick the crap out of his toes. and try to squeese your arms into position behind his elbows so you can break his hold.


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