# Martial Sacrilege (part 1)



## Finlay (Nov 24, 2017)

Hello




This is inspired from a thread I saw where the OP made a comment about getting a black belt in a year. There is a possibility that his comment was misunderstood, but in any case he seemed to have quickly received a good deal of disapproval for getting a black belt in such a short time.

I accpet this is a well worn topic, but often it just seems to brushed over with 1 year black belt = Mcdojo, fraud etc. I'd like to have a deeper discussion on the matter with those interested in doing so

In my martial career I have met a very small number of individuals who receive their 1st dan in a remarkably short time. These individual were part of a recognized organization and for the most part have gone on to achieve great things in their art. I accept that these people are the acceptation but if you met any of them and they told you they received their black belt 15 months, likely you would be suspicious that they did some sort of Mcdojo style.


I believe that normally black belts are attained in the 3-5 year bracket. Is this a true measure of what it take to develop a foundational skill in an art (which I believe black belt should be) or is it some socially accepted length of time to achieve something?

Does the fact that there are some arts that it takes 10 years to get a black belt somehow lessen the 5 year Black Belts?

Under what circumstances would you see a person “fast tracking” to BB as legitimate?


And finally do we have the right to judge what a black belt in a different system means?


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## lklawson (Nov 24, 2017)

"Black Belt" (shodan?) is nothing.

It is a made up "rank" which represents exactly what the certifying body says it represents.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

There is a perception that "Black Belt" represents an "expert."  For some organizations, it does.  For some, it may not.  And what "expert" means is highly variable.

"Black Belt" doesn't mean expert.  It just means, "this person has met the minimum requirements that we have to earn this 'rank' in our system."

That *may* be strictly skills based.  Demonstrate you know skills X, Y, and Z.  It *may* be "live sparring" based (whatever that means).  It may include "time in grade," an arbitrary "maturity level," or some amount of "promoting the art."

If a school has some "ranking" hierarchy where a student can achieve the vaunted "Black Belt" in a year, well, that's fine for them.  Their ranks don't mean anything to me, my ranks don't mean anything to them, and some third party's ranks don't mean anything to anyone else.

Don't worry about their "Black Belt" standards.  If you don't like or agree with them, then don't train there. 

Just train.  Get better at what you do and don't worry a whole lot about what other people do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## DanT (Nov 24, 2017)

In my Kung Fu association, Black Sash represents becoming a full instructor. To do so typically requires 6-10 years of hard training. 

The meaning of black belt/sash depends on the organization.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it has been much discussed, i far as i can tell people think what ever they had to do to get a black belt is what is correct. If it tool them 10 years of education then that what everybody should do, or its a fraud in some way, I've even suggested that black belts that let themselves get old and flabby should be demoted to the grade they now have the fitness/ flexibility for, that made several people get quite cross. It like me turning up at a five a side match, with the soccer medals i won when i was 22, " LOOK i used to be good", it would cause the now 22 yo to laugh at me

personally i think its all childish, like collecting merit badges in the girl guides, you are what ever standard you are NOW, your belt colour won't make any difference


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2017)

Rank pretty much only has meaning within the school or organization issuing it. 
Our 1st Dan is considered a teaching rank, not a beginner rank. It takes, on average, 6-8 years for an adult to earn. 
But there are exceptions to most everything...
I earned my 1st Dan in this system in two years, and could have done it faster if I'd wanted. Why? Because I came to the Moo Duk Kwan with a fair bit of prior training, including Dan rank in a similar art. It took me about 8 weeks to learn the Kukkiwon curriculum and get a 1st Dan from them. Does that make my KKW rank any different from someone who took a year (which is not uncommon in KKW schools)? Nope. It's just the same. In a KKW school.
Rank can be a motivator for some, and in a large school it can help instructors know what material to cover or where a given student should be at in their training. It can be useful for organizational structure. But it's just really not that big a deal otherwise, at least to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

lklawson said:


> "Black Belt" (shodan?) is nothing.
> 
> It is a made up "rank" which represents exactly what the certifying body says it represents.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.
> 
> ...


Pretty much this. I took about 12 years to get my BB. I met a guy who got his in the same art in 3 (which he said was too fast). I met a couple of people who got theirs in under 2 in two different organizations (different art). Of those, the only valid comparison was mine and the other guy in the NGAA. His was too quick, and I was pretty slow to get mine.

In any case, it's just a rank (rather, the belt represents the rank), and only means what it means to the population involved. If someone wanted to start everyone at BB and work them through aqua, puce, and blaze orange before getting them to white, that'd be fine. I might join them just to have a puce belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> it has been much discussed, i far as i can tell people think what ever they had to do to get a black belt is what is correct. If it tool them 10 years of education then that what everybody should do, or its a fraud in some way, I've even suggested that black belts that let themselves get old and flabby should be demoted to the grade they now have the fitness/ flexibility for, that made several people get quite cross. It like me turning up at a five a side match, with the soccer medals i won when i was 22, " LOOK i used to be good", it would cause the now 22 yo to laugh at me
> 
> personally i think its all childish, like collecting merit badges in the girl guides, you are what ever standard you are NOW, your belt colour won't make any difference


You're confusing the belt/rank with current physical ability. They don't necessarily mean that (though in some places they do).


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're confusing the belt/rank with current physical ability. They don't necessarily mean that (though in some places they do).


it was slightly tongue in cheek, but it should be like army rank, you need to add retired to your rank when you are four stone over weight with bad knees and a herniated disc, they could have a yellow stripe at the back of their black belt to signify this


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> it was slightly tongue in cheek, but it should be like army rank, you need to add retired to your rank when you are four stone over weight with bad knees and a herniated disc


Only if that rank is supposed to mean you can do things you no longer can. I'm not aware of an organization where that is the meaning of the rank. Same for army rank - having the rank of General doesn't mean you can make the run that was required to graduate out of basic.


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Only if that rank is supposed to mean you can do things you no longer can. I'm not aware of an organization where that is the meaning of the rank. Same for army rank - having the rank of General doesn't mean you can make the run that was required to graduate out of basic.



Agree.  To me rank should denote knowledge and understanding of something.

Just because someone's body has aged and is failing....they still possess the knowledge and understanding that their rank represents.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Only if that rank is supposed to mean you can do things you no longer can. I'm not aware of an organization where that is the meaning of the rank. Same for army rank - having the rank of General doesn't mean you can make the run that was required to graduate out of basic.


but you do need to be able to pass an age related fitness test to stay in the army, no matter what rank you are.( perhaps not if your an actual general as they never actually get near any actual fighting)

if you need specified fitness abilities to gain a belt, when you can no longer perform at that level, then you black belt is just a long service sash and not an indication of ability.

i no longer wear my  scout standard badge, coz there is no way i can light a fire with out matches( or a zippo) 
Though i can still tie a mean bowline, I'm the only person i know that can tie a proper noose , that wasn't in badge, but it may come in handy one day


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Agree.  To me rank should denote knowledge and understanding of something.
> 
> Just because someone's body has aged and is failing....they still possess the knowledge and understanding that their rank represents.


but not perhaps the ability to use that knowledge?


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## MA_Student (Nov 24, 2017)

I don't like the attitude you're only a begginer when you get to black belt....um no you're not a begginer is a white belt where you know absoloutley 0. When you're a black belt you're meant to know your stuff at a good level. Frankly no ones perfect and no ones ever going to be perfect that's a fact. I think a lot of traditional places put to much emphasis on the perfect technique. Like I personally really don't care if my horse stance is exactly 50/50 in weight or if it has the correct toe and heel line because if I ever need to fight that stuffs all going out the window anyway lets be honest.

Now if guys want to do that and spend ages studying the perfect techique then good on them nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants that and I think that techique isn't the most important when It comes to fighting I believe conditioning, heart and determination are what makes someone good at fighting and I believe that just because someone can't do a picture perfect fighting stance but they can hold their own against anyone in a fight that doesn't mean they shouldn't be promoted.

As for the how long thing I just don't see how you can give anyone a black in a year. It's like a boxer they wouldn't be fighting for a word title in a year would they.


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## MA_Student (Nov 24, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Agree.  To me rank should denote knowledge and understanding of something.
> 
> Just because someone's body has aged and is failing....they still possess the knowledge and understanding that their rank represents.


So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but not perhaps the ability to use that knowledge?



You still have the ability to impart that knowledge to someone.

Just like most coaches can not play the game anymore they can still teach and develop and have the expert knowledge to pass on.




jobo said:


> coz there is no way i can light a fire with out matches(



That isn't an ability problem but apparently you lack the knowledge to anymore.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> I don't like the attitude you're only a begginer when you get to black belt....um no you're not a begginer is a white belt where you know absoloutley 0. When you're a black belt you're meant to know your stuff at a good level.



Depends who you ask. In many systems, 1st Dan means nothing more than 'you've got the basics covered.' In others it means 'you're qualified to teach.' And anywhere in between.



> Frankly no ones perfect and no ones ever going to be perfect that's a fact. I think a lot of traditional places put to much emphasis on the perfect technique. Like I personally really don't care if my horse stance is exactly 50/50 in weight or if it has the correct toe and heel line because if I ever need to fight that stuffs all going out the window anyway lets be honest.



You can never place too much emphasis on perfection. You will never achieve it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be striving for it.



> Now if guys want to do that and spend ages studying the perfect techique then good on them nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants that and I think that techique isn't the most important when It comes to fighting I believe conditioning, heart and determination are what makes someone good at fighting and I believe that just because someone can't do a picture perfect fighting stance but they can hold their own against anyone in a fight that doesn't mean they shouldn't be promoted.



Depends on if you're trying to learn to fight or trying to learn the art.



> As for the how long thing I just don't see how you can give anyone a black in a year. It's like a boxer they wouldn't be fighting for a word title in a year would they.



And 99.99% of 1st Dan holders are not going to be fighting for a world title. Or a national title. But hey, if you think a 1st Dan should only be awarded to someone who is a world class competitor, that's fine. In your school. I hope that means you're either not a BB, or hold a world title yourself...


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions



Sure.  If they still have the knowledge to impart.

You think Mario Andretti forgot how to drive after he turned 60?


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## MA_Student (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you do need to be able to pass an age related fitness test to stay in the army, no matter what rank you are.( perhaps not if your an actual general as they never actually get near any actual fighting)
> 
> if you need specified fitness abilities to gain a belt, when you can no longer perform at that level, then you black belt is just a long service sash and not an indication of ability.
> 
> ...


I'm always of the mindset lead by example. If I get a student to do 10 press ups in a warm up I'm doing those 10 press ups to heck I'll do 20 while they do 10. 

Of course when guys get older they won't be fit as they were 20 years ago everyone knows that but that doesn't mean they can't do /any/ fitness training. My Jiu Jitsu coach is in his 60s dodgy knees, bad fingers and yet he's still rolling with the young guys and lifting weights regularly. Age can be factor but not an excuse in my eyes. Just cause your 70 and can't run as fast doesn't mean you can't hit the roads and do a few miles every now and then.

Personally the thing I absoloutley hate most are these guys who are barking out instructions about having stances as low as the ground when they're legs are totally straight or them yelling at you to keep doing press ups while they're sat down watching. I just don't like that at all.

The worst one was once I asked a black belt if the class was going to do some sparring his response. No I'm to old for sparring.....um well okay but why does this mean the class can't spar....it's just things like this that bug me. The one good thing about mma, kickboxing etc is the guys know that being in shape is important and even if they're not in the best shape they'll still do a lot of work on it. I find it more motivating when my Thai coach says to Shadow box and unless pointing out stuff is doing the rounds right there with us


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## MA_Student (Nov 24, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Sure.  If they still have the knowledge to impart.
> 
> You think Mario Andretti forgot how to drive after he turned 60?


So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions



Do you think Freddie Roach can't train boxers because he no longer can fight?


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...



Yes I was taught how to drive when I was 12 by my disabled grandfather.  He still knew how to drive just couldn't due to damage from a stroke but still had the knowledge.


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## MA_Student (Nov 24, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Do you think Freddie Roach can't train boxers because he no longer can fight?


Never said he couldn't but you need to be able to demonstrate it at a high level. I've got a friend in martial arts who's only got one leg he's good at the stuff he does but I wouldn't be asking him much  about how to throw kicks


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Never said he couldn't but you need to be able to demonstrate it at a high level. I've got a friend in martial arts who's only got one leg he's good at the stuff he does but I wouldn't be asking him much  about how to throw kicks



Yet if he has knowledge of what you can do to kick better you are a fool not to ask him.


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## CB Jones (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Belichick never played pro football....but as a developing football player you would be very foolish not to listen to him.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...



I assume Mr Andretti knows the difference between breaking and braking, for starters...

I only have one eye. And I'm nearsighted in it. Doesn't stop me from being a good driver. Nor from teaching my kids and grandkids to drive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you do need to be able to pass an age related fitness test to stay in the army, no matter what rank you are.( perhaps not if your an actual general as they never actually get near any actual fighting)
> 
> if you need specified fitness abilities to gain a belt, when you can no longer perform at that level, then you black belt is just a long service sash and not an indication of ability.
> 
> ...


I can see your point, but again, your statements put for the assumption that the rank implies the person has a certain fitness level, etc. For instance, in the NGAA, a series of jumping kicks are required to attain ni-dan. But I have no assumption that anyone above ni-dan can still do those, unless they are in reasonable shape. Why? Because the requirements for attaining a belt are not always about what's required to operate at that belt. There's no reason a san-dan needs to be able to do a jumping kick - we just don't use them very often, and most of us never use them beyond their place as training tools.

So, if the ni-dan required the kicks, what do I know about someone who has attained that or a higher level? That they once could, can teach others to (instructor rank is sho-dan in that organization). Since that's what the belt communicates, there's no reason those folks shouldn't wear that rank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but not perhaps the ability to use that knowledge?


If you mean for fighting/sparring, then yes, perhaps that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> I don't like the attitude you're only a begginer when you get to black belt....um no you're not a begginer is a white belt where you know absoloutley 0. When you're a black belt you're meant to know your stuff at a good level. Frankly no ones perfect and no ones ever going to be perfect that's a fact. I think a lot of traditional places put to much emphasis on the perfect technique. Like I personally really don't care if my horse stance is exactly 50/50 in weight or if it has the correct toe and heel line because if I ever need to fight that stuffs all going out the window anyway lets be honest.
> 
> Now if guys want to do that and spend ages studying the perfect techique then good on them nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants that and I think that techique isn't the most important when It comes to fighting I believe conditioning, heart and determination are what makes someone good at fighting and I believe that just because someone can't do a picture perfect fighting stance but they can hold their own against anyone in a fight that doesn't mean they shouldn't be promoted.
> 
> As for the how long thing I just don't see how you can give anyone a black in a year. It's like a boxer they wouldn't be fighting for a word title in a year would they.


That depends upon how that rank is used in any given group. If a group designates black belt as the point at which there's enough foundation to start serious work (what most folks mean when they say BB = beginner), then that's what it means.

While some organizations use BB to identify serious knowledge (or at least the beginnings thereof), others use it to identify something much earlier in the process.

And equating BB to world-class elite status in boxing is a false equivalency. At no point since I got my BB (and I took FAR longer than that) have I been comparable to world championship contender in any combat sport.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions


That's an _argumentum ad absurdum_. But, yes. There would be much to learn from a highly skilled driver who has aged past that. I probably don't want him driving for me, but he could teach me some of the lessons he learned. If you take away the half-blindedness (which is the most absurd part), then I might even want to learn from his driving, assuming he was highly skilled and has maintained some of those skills in his dotage.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...


Do you think this is the only thing that can be learned? Do you think a boxing coach teaches boxing by saying, "Now, he's open right now! PUNCH!"


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Personally the thing I absoloutley hate most are these guys who are barking out instructions about having stances as low as the ground when they're legs are totally straight


Do you know why they do that?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Never said he couldn't but you need to be able to demonstrate it at a high level. I've got a friend in martial arts who's only got one leg he's good at the stuff he does but I wouldn't be asking him much  about how to throw kicks


AH! Now we get to the core of the issue. An instructor may not be able to demonstrate everything he can teach. That is only a problem if he has nobody else to do so for him. When I was student teaching, I had knee surgery. For a while, I couldn't do any kicks, and some techniques were right out, too. That was a limitation, but not really a problem. I had access to senior students and other instructors who could step in to provide the demonstration as I taught, when necessary. I've seen older instructors do the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Bill Belichick never played pro football....but as a developing football player you would be very foolish not to listen to him.


The assumption that a coach/physical instructor must be highly physically competent at the skill being coached is similar to the business assumption that a great programmer will be great at managing programmers.


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## Buka (Nov 24, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Just cause your 70 and can't run as fast doesn't mean you can't hit the roads and do a few miles every now and then.



If you don't mind me asking, are you 70?


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## Paul_D (Nov 24, 2017)

You don't want to be getting into a car with a 66 year old, I mean what are you going to learn from that? 







[


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> You don't want to be getting into a car with a 66 year old, I mean what are you going to learn from that?
> [



But... but... Sir Jackie is retired. He's too old. He's not capable of doing the things he did when he was in his 20's. Therefore he can't possibly be capable of teaching.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> AH! Now we get to the core of the issue. An instructor may not be able to demonstrate everything he can teach. That is only a problem if he has nobody else to do so for him. When I was student teaching, I had knee surgery. For a while, I couldn't do any kicks, and some techniques were right out, too. That was a limitation, but not really a problem. I had access to senior students and other instructors who could step in to provide the demonstration as I taught, when necessary. I've seen older instructors do the same.


but you don't actually have to be able to do something to teach other people about it. I could teach you how to lay bricks, my brick laying is terrible, but i could still teach you how to do it properly, 

i cant Tell you the number of times I've read  a chapter of a book and give n a convincing lecture. On it 10 mins later.

i once flew the,Russia, to lecture on health safety in gold mining ,i subject i knew precisely nothing about, i read the book on the plane,


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you don't actually have to be able to do something to teach other people about it. I could teach you how to lay bricks, my brick laying is terrible, but i could still teach you how to do it properly,
> 
> i cant Tell you the number of times I've read  a chapter of a book and give n a convincing lecture. On it 10 mins later.
> 
> i once flew the,Russia, to lecture on health safety in gold mining ,i subject i knew precisely nothing about, i read the book on the plane,



Not surprisingly, a silly and spurious argument. None of those examples have anything to do with an expert who is teaching something they can no longer physically do. 
I know a neurosurgeon with Parkinson’s who can no longer perform surgery. But he’s one hell of a teacher. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you don't actually have to be able to do something to teach other people about it. I could teach you how to lay bricks, my brick laying is terrible, but i could still teach you how to do it properly,
> 
> i cant Tell you the number of times I've read  a chapter of a book and give n a convincing lecture. On it 10 mins later.
> 
> i once flew the,Russia, to lecture on health safety in gold mining ,i subject i knew precisely nothing about, i read the book on the plane,


Yes. That was my point.


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## drop bear (Nov 24, 2017)

Finlay said:


> And finally do we have the right to judge what a black belt in a different system means?



Yes.

Yes we do.


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## jobo (Nov 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. That was my point.


no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well


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## Paul_D (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well


Someone who has never done karate can teach it "just as well" as someone has done karate.  What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?


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## jobo (Nov 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Someone who has never done karate can teach it "just as well" as someone has done karate.  What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?


if they cant/ don't have to demonstrate it, then anyone can describe how to do it correctly, with a bit of research


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## Paul_D (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> if they cant demonstrate it, then anyone can describe how to do it correctly, with a bit of research


Perhaps, but having never done it, they can't teach it 'just as well' as someone who has done it, as someone who has done it will have learnt things the book won't tell you.  So someone who has done it I would say can teach it better?


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## jobo (Nov 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Perhaps, but having never done it, they can't teach it 'just as well' as someone who has done it, as someone who has done it will have learnt things the book won't tell you.  So someone who has done it I would say can teach it better?


which books don't contain essential info? They may well teach it a lot better if they have good teaching skills. Being good at something doesn't make you a good teacher


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## drop bear (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well



You should be able to translate the information better from first hand experience than from second or third.


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## jobo (Nov 25, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You should be able to translate the information better from first hand experience than from second or third.


angelo Dundee?


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## Paul_D (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> which books don't contain essential info? They may well teach it a lot better if they have good teaching skills. Being good at something doesn't make you a good teacher


I didn't say essential, but you are bound to learn things by doing them that you didn't learn from the book.  Beng good doesn't make you a good teacher no, but that's a different topic.


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## jobo (Nov 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I didn't say essential, but you are bound to learn things by doing them that you didn't learn from the book.  Beng good doesn't make you a good teacher no, but that's a different topic.


so you may learn things that arnt right, so your objection to this premise is you may not be able to teach something that isn't essential

no its the same topic


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## Paul_D (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> so you may learn things that arnt right, so your objection to this premise is you may not be able to teach something that isn't essential
> 
> no its the same topic


No that's not my objection.   Yes you could learn things hat aren't right, but trial and error of dong it with partners will teach its not right, and therefore you can't correct it.   Something else that you won't learn from reading it.  I'm not saying you can't learn from a book and teach, I'm saying I don't believe you can teach it "just as well" as someone who has done it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well


Um, no he can't. Find me someone who can teach sparring from a book.

You cited a knowledge-only topic. You probably can teach the theory of that without experience. However, I've seen folks teaching management classes who have no experience, and they universally suck at some parts of it. Why? Because they don't understand the application of the theory. They haven't tried (or even observed) the techniques in use.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> if they cant/ don't have to demonstrate it, then anyone can describe how to do it correctly, with a bit of research


Nope. They won't know what to correct, what to point out in the demonstration someone else does. When I was using others to do my demonstrations after my knee surgery, I had to know who to pick, which meant knowing what to look for in the technique. I also had to know how to describe the key points and answer questions, make corrections when a student messed up, etc. Books can't give that.


----------



## Saheim (Nov 25, 2017)

Rank means A LOT..... to people who don' train.  Seriously, tell your non MA co-workers you train, expect the question "what belt are you?"  Some times, I wanna just start making up something like "9th degree Rainbow Belt"

I like what Royce Gracie said - A black belt only covers 2 inches of your @, you gotta cover the rest.

There is only one real alternative, and it aint real appealing:  have the gvt step in and standardize MA schools, like an FDA or something.  Then, most of the time, a BB in TKD would meet very comparable criteria to the BB awarded in Shorin Ryu.  Of course, the arts would probably look the about the same too (other than the uniforms and sign out front).

Rank is simply what YOUR instructor thinks about YOU and YOUR ability, if he is ethical.  If he isn't, it is a receipt.


----------



## Balrog (Nov 25, 2017)

Finlay said:


> Hello
> 
> This is inspired from a thread I saw where the OP made a comment about getting a black belt in a year. There is a possibility that his comment was misunderstood, but in any case he seemed to have quickly received a good deal of disapproval for getting a black belt in such a short time.
> 
> I accpet this is a well worn topic, but often it just seems to brushed over with 1 year black belt = Mcdojo, fraud etc. I'd like to have a deeper discussion on the matter with those interested in doing so


My $0.02 worth....

I can teach someone our entire curriculum from White Belt to 1st Degree Black Belt in a year and their technique would be pretty good, but only if they were willing to train 6-8 hours a day (and I were willing to teach 6-8 hours a day).  But I feel I would be doing them a disservice if I did.

The "journey" from White Belt to Black Belt is about learning the basics of the art.  It's also about developing life skills from your training and to me, those are just as important as the physical skills. My fast track guy certainly has discipline, focus and perseverance, but there are a lot more than those three.   And they take time.  

I like to use the analogy of baking a cake.  The recipe calls for 2 hours in the oven at 150 degrees.  I decide I want to turn the temp up to 300 and only leave it in for an hour.  What do I wind up with?  Something that might look done on the outside but is still raw on the inside.


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## Buka (Nov 25, 2017)

Saheim said:


> Rank is simply what YOUR instructor thinks about YOU and YOUR ability, if he is ethical.  If he isn't, it is a receipt.



I love that line.


----------



## skribs (Nov 25, 2017)

At my TKD school, it's a minimum of 2.5 years to get your black belt.  It takes 12 tests to get your black belt, and we have tests every 2 months.  Up until Red belt you can test every time, but to get Red I, Red II, and then black belt there's a minimum 4 month waiting period*.  So 9 tests at 2 months each and 3 tests at 4 months each, and you can potentially have your black belt in 30 months.  Of course, we have black belt tests only twice a year, so that could be 34 months depending on your timing.

*This is all, of course, barring special permission from the Master.  He will sometimes accelerate students who have prior martial arts experience, and sometimes if a student will be moving he will allow them to take additional classes to bump them up a bit before they go.

However, that timing is only if you test every time.  Most students do not test every testing period.  It's very common that a student will add at least 2 months to every test, which makes it a 4.5 year journey to black belt.  We have another student who started a bit before me and tested for yellow belt with me.  He might test for his black belt when I test for my 3rd Dan.

In my case, it took me 23 months to get to black belt.  After 1 year at the school, my Master gave me the opportunity to do an instructor internship to learn how to be an instructor.  This was in part because he needed an instructor, in part because I had prior martial arts experience (4 years in TKD when I was a kid, but I started over as a white belt at his school), and in part because I had no life so I was available to teach.  I was at the dojang, either helping with or taking classes, for 20 hours a week.  I think that helped entitle me to a bit of a faster progression.


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## Hyoho (Nov 25, 2017)

erars





Finlay said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A first degree black belt or in Japan 'shodan' is a begginers grade. Somewhere along the line is has got misenterpreted. 

Maybe because years ago anyone returning from Japan with shodan was truly an expert, as M.A. used to be and still is double standard in some arts. This not going to alter because some Japanese practice until they drop seven days a week twice a day

But even in Japan you can take up something like Kyudo and reach Nidan within one year. I guess it really dependon what you do ans the standards that are set for the art you do.

To me my enlightenment came when at 42 I realized that belts and grading are not important. And that classical arts just dont have belt system anyway.

Also I was still being pushed into taking a seventh dan and I was told "It's for your students". And I guess I still want to be student myself. I have always like the phrase, "We are all students"


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 26, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> erars
> 
> A first degree black belt or in Japan 'shodan' is a begginers grade. Somewhere along the line is has got misenterpreted.


You have made that statement before, but that is not universal, even in Japan. The founder of NGA in Hokkaido used BB as an instructor designation in the 1960’s.


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## Saheim (Nov 26, 2017)

Here is something I have not heard mentioned yet - sometimes, it can work the other way (I think).  A "minimum" amount of time for promotions (which I have seen even for low ranks) can be a sign of "milking".  Not always, might not even be often BUT if a school is requiring you to attend (and pay) for a set number of months before you are eligible to test, there could be a monetary reason.  Especially if there are also testing fees involved.  Just saying - going too fast might not be the only issue, be drug out could also be.  No?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 26, 2017)

Saheim said:


> Here is something I have not heard mentioned yet - sometimes, it can work the other way (I think).  A "minimum" amount of time for promotions (which is have seen even for low ranks) can be a sign of "milking".  Not always, might not even be often BUT if a school is requiring you to attend (and pay) for a set number of months before you are eligible to test, there could be a monetary reason.  Especially if there are also testing fees involved.  Just saying - going too fast might not be the only issue, be drug out could also be.  No?


Minimum times generally work against that concept. With testing fees, it guarantees testing fees are paid less often. Without them, it scares away (and is meant to) those who are only seeking fast promotion. Generally, those are put in place to ensure nobody gets promoted too fast. The only way I can see them as milking is if the student is only there to reach a certain rank - the minimum times would delay that, so more fees. But those students generally aren’t going to stick around, in any case.


----------



## Danny T (Nov 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> angelo Dundee?


Dundee never boxed himself but he did far more than read a book to learn his craft as a trainer.
He started as a second corner man and bucket man in boxing tournaments while in the U.S. military during WWII. After being discharged he work as a assistant & 2nd corner man for Charlie Goldman, Ray Arcel, and Chickie Ferrera at Stillman’s Gym. His brother a professional boxer opened the famous 5th Street Gym in Miami and he continued to hone his craft there eventually becoming the head trainer. He learned to be a good trainer by being in gym working with other trainers and boxers not by just reading a book.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2017)

Lots of people offering thoughts on this...  Here's my take:  A black belt has exactly the meaning given it by the wearer, the association, and those who view them.  No more, no less.  It's not a magic talisman that makes you a wise life counselor, or a sign that you're an invincible fighting machine, or even a fantastic teacher.  You might well be any or none of those things -- but the black belt (or equivalent ranking or title) doesn't make you one.  It's nothing more than an indicator that you met the standard defined by one person or organization at one point in time.

How long should it take to get a black belt?  Don't know.  How much is there to learn to earn the title in your school?  Time does matter, because even though you might acquire all the knowledge, physical skills take some time to really soak in and get properly integrated with your body.  There's obviously some individual variance on that -- but it takes some time and repetitions...  No real substitute for that.

So... a one year black belt?  Not in my system or my school.  But can you acquire many of the skills?  How hard do you want to work?  How focused is your training on those skills?  I can take someone, and in a matter of months, give them the skills to fight and beat black belts.  It'll be about fighting -- no really form/kata stuff, lots of hard, intense drills and practice, and conditioning.  But we also expect a black belt to have an adequate understanding of the principles to be able to teach -- and that also takes time.  But that doesn't mean nobody else can do it that way in their system.  The senshusei program in Yoshinkan aikido is an obvious example...  



Danny T said:


> Dundee never boxed himself but he did far more than read a book to learn his craft as a trainer.
> He started as a second corner man and bucket man in boxing tournaments while in the U.S. military during WWII. After being discharged he work as a assistant & 2nd corner man for Charlie Goldman, Ray Arcel, and Chickie Ferrera at Stillman’s Gym. His brother a professional boxer opened the famous 5th Street Gym in Miami and he continued to hone his craft there eventually becoming the head trainer. He learned to be a good trainer by being in gym working with other trainers and boxers not by just reading a book.



One other thing...  Dundee didn't become a boxer -- he became a boxing trainer.  There's a distinction...  He worked with greats and learned how to coach and correct and what it takes to form a great boxer.  How many great boxers go on to be even decent trainers?


----------



## jobo (Nov 26, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Dundee never boxed himself but he did far more than read a book to learn his craft as a trainer.
> He started as a second corner man and bucket man in boxing tournaments while in the U.S. military during WWII. After being discharged he work as a assistant & 2nd corner man for Charlie Goldman, Ray Arcel, and Chickie Ferrera at Stillman’s Gym. His brother a professional boxer opened the famous 5th Street Gym in Miami and he continued to hone his craft there eventually becoming the head trainer. He learned to be a good trainer by being in gym working with other trainers and boxers not by just reading a book.


you don't possibly know where he learnt his art, but in our discussion he was NEVER a boxing " black belt" yet was a talented teacher, this supporting the point i made that you don't have to be skilled at what you teach to teach it very well


----------



## drop bear (Nov 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> you don't possibly know where he learnt his art, but in our discussion he was NEVER a boxing " black belt" yet was a talented teacher, this supporting the point i made that you don't have to be skilled at what you teach to teach it very well



Personal experience as a trainer. Is still personal experience.

And not a book.

So coaching is still a skill.


----------



## Hyoho (Nov 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You have made that statement before, but that is not universal, even in Japan. The founder of NGA in Hokkaido used BB as an instructor designation in the 1960’s.



 Maybe worth mentioning . Maybe I mentioned this before. Japanese Asssociations tend to send Yudansha (High ranking black belts) to other countries. For big associations it a kind of a retirement present as 65 year olds take a back seat for younger guys to run things.

Out of all those that go the majority cant speak English, so many learn by example and some end up doing 'old mans'  MA. The goals for MA are usually set out by age and expectancy.

A very large percentage of these visitors can't or don't teach. You need a teaching qualification to do that. But by all means you can help. Even kyu grades should be helping. MA is a 'we' thing.


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## jobo (Nov 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Personal experience as a trainer. Is still personal experience.
> 
> And not a book.
> 
> So coaching is still a skill.


reading a book is an experience!


----------



## Danny T (Nov 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well


So this wasn't your point? But this is what you wrote...even stating specifically that your point is ..."can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy..." 



jobo said:


> you don't possibly know where he learnt his art, but in our discussion he was NEVER a boxing " black belt" yet was a talented teacher, this supporting the point i made that you don't have to be skilled at what you teach to teach it very well


Correct Dundee was never a boxing black belt. But then I've never heard of anyone being a boxing black belt, even within all the world champions boxers. Maybe there are some, I did do a little research but nothing came up as yet.

What I stated as to Dundee's experience in learning his "craft as a trainer" is documented and not something I made up.

I agree that one can be a good teacher, instructor,...etc. and not necessarily be skilled at what is being taught. That wasn't my point. It was that Dundee didn't just read a book to learn his craft though I would expect that he did a lot of research. He spent years in the gym working as an assistant under several world class trainers as they worked with their boxers. His experiences learning the sweet science wasn't just from reading a book.


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## drop bear (Nov 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> reading a book is an experience!



Thanks for that Chris Parker.


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## Buka (Nov 27, 2017)

I urge you all to read _My View from the Corner_ by Angelo Dundee. Not to teach you anything, it's just a really good read.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> it was slightly tongue in cheek, but it should be like army rank, you need to add retired to your rank when you are four stone over weight with bad knees and a herniated disc, they could have a yellow stripe at the back of their black belt to signify this



So in your art you are expected to become cowardly as you age?  What was the name of your art again?  And what army did you serve in that age equated to cowardice?

Sorry, not a concept I would say was tongue in cheek.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> So in your art you are expected to become cowardly as you age?  What was the name of your art again?  And what army did you serve in that age equated to cowardice?
> 
> Sorry, not a concept I would say was tongue in cheek.


I'm not sure what you are on about, its not about becoming a coward, its about becoming old and less capable.

my ex farther in law, had been a major in the army about 30 years before, he would nt let go of his rank, he sent the wedding invites out in the name major jones( retired). That's what I'm sugeating black belts should do, when they are too old to do karate properly, they should tell people they are a black belt ( retired), the yellow stripe is to let others know to go easy on them, or they could just have a disability sticker on their suit


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> But... but... Sir Jackie is retired. He's too old. He's not capable of doing the things he did when he was in his 20's. Therefore he can't possibly be capable of teaching.


I heard that Cus D'Amato couldn't actually beat up Tyson.  No idea why so many boxer went to a broken down old dude for coaching.  Just makes no sense.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> erars
> 
> A first degree black belt or in Japan 'shodan' is a begginers grade. Somewhere along the line is has got misenterpreted.


It happened a long long time ago.  By 1961 it was firmly entrenched as a definition.

From Black Belt Magazine, Vol 1. No. 1, 1961:
"Editorial:
Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self-defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor. Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not sure what you are on about, its not about becoming a coward, its about becoming old and less capable.
> 
> my ex farther in law, had been a major in the army about 30 years before, he would nt let go of his rank, he sent the wedding invites out in the name major jones( retired). That's what I'm sugeating black belts should do, when they are too old to do karate properly, they should tell people they are a black belt ( retired), the yellow stripe is to let others know to go easy on them, or they could just have a disability sticker on their suit


Once again, you are imposing your meaning upon others. Black belt does not mean "I can currently do spinning kicks" or anything of the sort.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> It happened a long long time ago.  By 1961 it was firmly entrenched as a definition.
> 
> From Black Belt Magazine, Vol 1. No. 1, 1961:
> "Editorial:
> ...


This would be about the same time NGA made a start in the US.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not sure what you are on about, its not about becoming a coward, its about becoming old and less capable.
> 
> my ex farther in law, had been a major in the army about 30 years before, he would nt let go of his rank, he sent the wedding invites out in the name major jones( retired). That's what I'm sugeating black belts should do, when they are too old to do karate properly, they should tell people they are a black belt ( retired), the yellow stripe is to let others know to go easy on them, or they could just have a disability sticker on their suit



I'm not sure I buy your explanation.  But taking the high side, since it often appears that English is not your primary language, perhaps you would like to look at the below URLs.

What does Yellow stripe down your back mean

Urban Dictionary: have a yellow streak down your back

Where did the concept of being yellow come from?

have a yellow streak down back

BTW, in what country does a yellow stripe on your back mean to go easy on the wearer?


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm not sure I buy your explanation.  But taking the high side, since it often appears that English is not your primary language, perhaps you would like to look at the below URLs.
> 
> What does Yellow stripe down your back mean
> 
> ...


yellow stripe down your back isn't actually wearing a yellow stripe you know, its purely an idiom.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> yellow stripe down your back isn't actually wearing a yellow stripe you know, its purely an idiom.



Ah, so you still want an out?  From others maybe, but sorry, not from me.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Once again, you are imposing your meaning upon others. Black belt does not mean "I can currently do spinning kicks" or anything of the sort.


no and that's part of the problem with ma, its SHOULD Indicate a high degree of ability, but broken down has beens being BLACKBELTS, just brings the whole thing into disrepute , of course you can argue as you have that they can be instructors, which they can, but they should have a rank other than black belt, as it demeans other black dots if they can't do spining kicks or what ever.
as i suggested, black belt ( retired) is one solution,with a stripe on the belt to indicate such.

instead of the infirmed keep getting honour ranks that make it even more ridiculass


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Ah, so you still want an out?  From others maybe, but sorry, not from me.


i don't need an " out" you need a sense of irony


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no and that's part of the problem with ma, its SHOULD Indicate a high degree of ability, but broken down has beens being BLACKBELTS, just brings the whole thing into disrepute


Only if you have the arrogance to believe that you can dictate what "black belt" means.

I still maintain that it means only what the instructor or certifying body says that it means and nothing else to anyone else.


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## Danny T (Nov 27, 2017)

Yeah...in much of the more popular martial arts in contrast to the "black belt as master" stereotype, the black belt usually indicates the wearer is "competent" in a system's/style's "fundamental technique and principles". A bit away from mastery or expert.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Only if you have the arrogance to believe that you can dictate what "black belt" means.
> 
> I still maintain that it means only what the instructor or certifying body says that it means and nothing else to anyone else.


i can't change any thing about it, but i can certainly give my view
, I'm suspecting that the people complain about my view are themselves at the stage where they are going backwards rather than progressing with their ability. So they have an investment in the,status staying the same


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no and that's part of the problem with ma, its SHOULD Indicate a high degree of ability, but broken down has beens being BLACKBELTS, just brings the whole thing into disrepute , of course you can argue as you have that they can be instructors, which they can, but they should have a rank other than black belt, as it demeans other black dots if they can't do spining kicks or what ever.
> as i suggested, black belt ( retired) is one solution,with a stripe on the belt to indicate such.
> 
> instead of the infirmed keep getting honour ranks that make it even more ridiculass


No. It SHOULD mean what the people involved agree for it to mean. Nothing more and nothing less. You believe it brings disrepute, because you believe their rank is supposed to mean something it does not. Since nobody at their school, in their association, or even in related arts will be confused about that point, I suggest they all know approximately what it means, which means the symbol serves the intended function.


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> i can't change any thing about it, but i can certainly give my view


Nope.  You are steadfastly insisting on your definition of what a "black belt" is, firmly linked to current capability. ...apparently based on years of watching Shaw Brothers kung fu flicks.



> I'm suspecting that the people complain about my view are themselves at the stage where they are going backwards rather than progressing with their ability. So they have an investment in the,status staying the same


Yeah, yeah, yeah.  What do you call a 90-year-old gimply Golden Gloves?  A Golden Gloves.

What really happened is that you have staked out a position which you are now finding harder and harder to honestly and logically defend.

It's actually kinda funny.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> i can't change any thing about it, but i can certainly give my view
> , I'm suspecting that the people complain about my view are themselves at the stage where they are going backwards rather than progressing with their ability. So they have an investment in the,status staying the same


And if you gave your view as how you prefer, how you wish it was, or what you originally thought it meant, that would be solid communication, and would leave room for debate (I might even support some of the thoughts). Suggesting your view is how it "should" be is more than a bit arrogant, IMO.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Nope.  You are steadfastly insisting on your definition of what a "black belt" is, firmly linked to current capability. ...apparently based on years of watching Shaw Brothers kung fu flicks.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah.  What do you call a 90-year-old gimply Golden Gloves?  A Golden Gloves.
> 
> ...


of course I'm steadfastly insisting my view is correct, its my view and i believe it to be,correct or it wouldn't be my view?????


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course I'm steadfastly insisting my view is correct, its my view and i believe it to be,correct or it wouldn't be my view?????


Except that you're implying it's the only correct view for others to hold. That's where your argument goes awry.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And if you gave your view as how you prefer, how you wish it was, or what you originally thought it meant, that would be solid communication, and would leave room for debate (I might even support some of the thoughts). Suggesting your view is how it "should" be is more than a bit arrogant, IMO.


as above, i only have views that are how i believe things should be.

I'm quite probably not going to reach black belt, before the hour glass runs out, i can't keep improving my fitness year on year at my age, so we are left with the situation that i reach a middling rank but am far more capable than a black belt who doesn't work on his fitness as much as i do, that can't be a good thing


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course I'm steadfastly insisting my view is correct, its my view and i believe it to be,correct or it wouldn't be my view?????


STILL A BLACK BELT!  YAY!


----------



## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> as above, i only have views that are how i believe things should be.


Go easy on him, guys, he's probably a Millennial, convinced that the world is how they think it should be not how it is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> as above, i only have views that are how i believe things should be.
> 
> I'm quite probably not going to reach black belt, before the hour glass runs out, i can't keep improving my fitness year on year at my age, so we are left with the situation that i reach a middling rank but am far more capable than a black belt who doesn't work on his fitness as much as i do, that can't be a good thing


Sure it can. If I am still teaching when I'm 70, I'd hope my middle-rank students can keep up with me, and some should be able to best me. That's a good thing, IMO. Heck, I have one now who can give me a decent run in open sparring, based on his past experience and the fact that his fitness is currently better than mine (too much time off with my injuries this year).


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Except that you're implying it's the only correct view for others to hold. That's where your argument goes awry.


no your infering that, I'm stating my view robustly, i can do nothing about your view, other than point out the logical inconsistence in it


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no your infering that, I'm stating my view robustly, i can do nothing about your view, other than point out the logical inconsistence in it


Where's a logical inconsistency? You've done no pointing to such.

As for infering vs. implying, your choice of "should" and arguing the meaning (rather than accepting that not everyone uses the meaning you assert as correct), as well as the tone of your posts, provides the implication.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Go easy on him, guys, he's probably a Millennial, convinced that the world is how they think it should be not how it is.


no im a 60s child convinced that that the world in general and ma black belts have got it wrong


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no im a 60s child convinced that that the world in general and ma black belts have got it wrong


See? Now you're not even implying it - you state it outright.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Where's a logical inconsistency? You've done no pointing to such.
> 
> As for infering vs. implying, your choice of "should" and arguing the meaning (rather than accepting that not everyone uses the meaning you assert as correct), as well as the tone of your posts, provides the implication.


and you are Infering what you want from my posts and then arguing with a strawman ( again) I'm not implying anything, I'm stating the facts as i see them


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> See? Now you're not even implying it - you state it outright.


i wasn't implying in the first place, I'm stating my views as yo say, out right


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> and you are I getting what you want from my posts and then arguing with a strawman ( again) I'm not implying anything, I'm stating the facts as i see them


Show where I'm misrepresenting your argument in a material fashion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> i wasn't implying in the first place, I'm stating my views as yo say, out right


And asserting that others are "wrong" (your own word).


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And asserting that others are "wrong" (your own word).


yes, i think the current black belt situation is WRONG, that why I'm am posting on this thread, if i thought it was right i wouldn't have bothered


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no im a 60s child convinced that that the world in general and ma black belts have got it wrong


You still seem to believe that you have any credibility or authority.  I *still* find this amusing.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You still seem to believe that you have any credibility or authority.  I *still* find this amusing.


 I'm pleased. You are amused.


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## jks9199 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes, i think the current black belt situation is WRONG, that why I'm am posting on this thread, if i thought it was right i wouldn't have bothered


OK.  You say there's a problem.  

How do you propose to fix it?


----------



## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> OK.  You say there's a problem.
> 
> How do you propose to fix it?


Fix it?  I'm still waiting for him to show that there's a problem.  Heck, I'm still waiting for him to show why anyone should accept his definition.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Danny T (Nov 27, 2017)

Willful ignorance or denial of the facts.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> OK.  You say there's a problem.
> 
> How do you propose to fix it?


ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well


I'd have a lot of respect for someone who could read a book on a martial art and teach that art just as well as an experienced practitioner. I've never come across such a person, however.

I _have_ met a good number of elderly instructors who have messed up joints and are no longer in good fighting condition, but who can provide excellent guidance and feedback concerning subtle details of body alignment, timing, situational tactics, adjusting techniques for different body types, and many more factors that no one ever learns from a book.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.


And this is a reasonable assertion...IF the black belt ranks mean that a person can currently perform at a certain level. The part I take issue with is that you're asserting either that this is what it *DOES mean *or that this is what it *SHOULD mean*. If the former, you're ignoring what it actually means to most martial artists. If the latter (which you denied a few posts ago), then you are asserting yourself as having a more proper meaning than others.


----------



## Danny T (Nov 27, 2017)

The strange human capacity for reasoning may have more to do with winning than with thinking straight. There is a psychological thing called “confirmation bias,” which is the tendency, some people have, to embrace information that supports their opinions, views, or beliefs only and rejecting information that contradicts them even when that information is factual, correct, and the truth.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And this is a reasonable assertion...IF the black belt ranks mean that a person can currently perform at a certain level. The part I take issue with is that you're asserting either that this is what it *DOES mean *or that this is what it *SHOULD mean*. If the former, you're ignoring what it actually means to most martial artists. If the latter (which you denied a few posts ago), then you are asserting yourself as having a more proper meaning than others.


this seems to be a circulatory argument of yours, I'm giving my view that i believe to be correct, it therefore follows logically that i believe that those who disagree are incorrect.

I'm not sure h ow many times you want me to repeat the same thing?


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

Danny T said:


> The strange human capacity for reasoning may have more to do with winning than with thinking straight. There is a psychological thing called “confirmation bias,” which is the tendency, some people have, to embrace information that supports their opinions, views, or beliefs only and rejecting information that contradicts them even when that information is factual, correct, and the truth.


yes you are correct, let's hope they catch on to that


----------



## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.


But you still haven't demonstrated that 1) your definition is worthwhile or 2) even if worthwhile, there is a problem which needs to be "fixed."


----------



## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> *this seems to be a circulatory argument of yours, I'm giving my view that i believe to be correct, it therefore follows logically that i believe that those who disagree are incorrect.*
> 
> I'm not sure h ow many times you want me to repeat the same thing?



*Bold:*  Wow.  Just wow.

Underlined:  I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't need to see you repeat it again.  It won't make any more sense no matter how many times you repeat it.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> But you still haven't demonstrated that 1) your definition is worthwhile or 2) even if worthwhile, there is a problem which needs to be "fixed."


the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public, which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed  before the arts all but,die out.

part of  that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts


----------



## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd have a lot of respect for someone who could read a book on a martial art and teach that art just as well as an experienced practitioner. I've never come across such a person, however.
> 
> I _have_ met a good number of elderly instructors who have messed up joints and are no longer in good fighting condition, but who can provide excellent guidance and feedback concerning subtle details of body alignment, timing, situational tactics, adjusting techniques for different body types, and many more factors that no one ever learns from a book.



I think you have stated a good response correctly.

Sounds like my GM.  He invented a Kwan.  When he reached his 70s he was still able to do a lot of things we kept striving to do.  Reverse spin kick or some other thing that relied on younger joints?  He didn't need to be able to do that perfectly as he had younger black belts to do that.  But if you tried and did anything wrong, he could tell you and tell you what you needed to do to correct it.  If you wanted to know how to do a particular joint lock better, he was your best person to ask and to demonstrate it.  And don't ask him to demonstrate a pain pressure point because you don't think you are doing it quite right!

But you would demote him in his own Kwan?



jobo said:


> as above, i only have views that are how i believe things should be.
> 
> I'm quite probably not going to reach black belt, before the hour glass runs out, i can't keep improving my fitness year on year at my age, so we are left with the situation that i reach a middling rank but am far more capable than a black belt who doesn't work on his fitness as much as i do, that can't be a good thing



All your noise and you haven't even reached black belt level yet?  Have you considered that you don't have standing to make the statements you do?


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> All your noise and you haven't even reached black belt level yet?  Have you considered that you don't have standing to make the statements you do?



no


----------



## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public,


The "reputation?"  Who cares?  BB is nothing but a "standard" for within whatever organizing body is certifying.  Does BJJ have a good "reputation?"  Does Yellow Bamboo have a bad "reputation?"  Why?  They both give Black Belts, right?  Further, why would any of us care if "traditional martial arts" have whatever "reputation" to the "general public" when it certainly appears that the "general public" doesn't have any better idea of what "black belt" means than you do?  Just because the "general public" thinks that hackers bypass firewalls with stolen passwords in 8 seconds (while getting a BJ) and takes over the databases of every bank on the planet or that a "black belt" means some sort of mechanized death machine doesn't make either of them right.  It just means that you're busy arguing that because the general public thinks someone with a computer degree should be able to hack the pentagon while watching a harry potter movie and eating doritos that anyone who can't do that should have their degree revoked.  And I gotta tell you, that sort of <cough> "reasoning" is frigg'n stupid.



> which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed  before the arts all but,die out.


Who cares?  From my research, Martial Arts training has always had shaky reputations and appears to have hit a high point in the 70's when "the general public" mistakenly believed that Bruce Lee could beat up a tribe of Sasquatch.



> part of  that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts


No.  Part of that "reputation problem" is that you have not only bought into some sort of mistaken misunderstanding of what "black belt" must mean but you're actively reinforcing the caricatured stereotype.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public, which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed  before the arts all but,die out.
> 
> part of  that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts



Does your art require fitness over technique?


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> The "reputation?"  Who cares?  BB is nothing but a "standard" for within whatever organizing body is certifying.  Does BJJ have a good "reputation?"  Does Yellow Bamboo have a bad "reputation?"  Why?  They both give Black Belts, right?  Further, why would any of us care if "traditional martial arts" have whatever "reputation" to the "general public" when it certainly appears that the "general public" doesn't have any better idea of what "black belt" means than you do?  Just because the "general public" thinks that hackers bypass firewalls with stolen passwords in 8 seconds (while getting a BJ) and takes over the databases of every bank on the planet or that a "black belt" means some sort of mechanized death machine doesn't make either of them right.  It just means that you're busy arguing that because the general public thinks someone with a computer degree should be able to hack the pentagon while watching a harry potter movie and eating doritos that anyone who can't do that should have their degree revoked.  And I gotta tell you, that sort of <cough> "reasoning" is frigg'n stupid.
> 
> Who cares?  From my research, Martial Arts training has always had shaky reputations and appears to have hit a high point in the 70's when "the general public" mistakenly believed that Bruce Lee could beat up a tribe of Sasquatch.
> 
> No.  Part of that "reputation problem" is that you have not only bought into some sort of mistaken misunderstanding of what "black belt" must mean but you're actively reinforcing the caricatured stereotype.


but the,current stereo type of a black belt, is it a portly out of breath dude with a bad back, fallen arches and an irregular heart beat, that's not a good selling point to attract people into ma, unless you are in a similar bad way


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## Danny T (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes you are correct, let's hope they catch on to that


Hahahahaha.
And some are in such denial they can't see their image, even when looking directly in a mirror.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no



Obviously.  Maybe you should. 

Regardless, personally I am done with this.  It has reached a point of apparent no return to common sense.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Does your art require fitness over technique?


they are impossible to separate, i need the fitness to lift my leg just as i need to the technique to kick properly, my punching techneque is of no use if I'm so out of breath i can't co ordinate my punches. Like any athletic activerty it requires a,good measure of both. That why i can't play soccer with 18 yo any more, my skills,are there, my fitness isnt


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## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> but the,current stereo type of a black belt, is it a portly out of breath dude with a bad back, fallen arches and an irregular heart beat, that's not a good selling point to attract people into ma, unless you are in a similar bad way


Who gives a crap?  It's a stereotype.  

Hey, I found a picture of a Black Belt!  Oh wait.  No.  This is your idea of a computer hacker.


----------



## lklawson (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> they are impossible to separate,


Because people who's misunderstanding of what is a martial artist is completely based on this?






bwa-hahahahahhaha


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Who gives a crap?  It's a stereotype.
> 
> Hey, I found a picture of a Black Belt!  Oh wait.  No.  This is your idea of a computer hacker.


my idea of a computer hacker is the girl from the,dragon tattoo, you appear to be going off topic

the problem is that the fat out of breath dude is the reality of a lot of black belts, hence my point they should be demoted for the good of the ma


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public, which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed  before the arts all but,die out.
> 
> part of  that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts


This is something we can debate, Jobo. I'm not sure the problem is the old, out-of-shape folks wearing black belts. I think it's more likely the "soft" nature of early (and in some cases, all) classes. Nobody gets bent out of shape if a boxing coach gets old, as long as they still get results.

That said, I'm not sure the target market of most MA schools would stay more than a few classes if they had two hours of highly intense exercise every class. I'm not sure what the answer is to that conundrum.

EDIT: Re-reading this, I should be clear. I think the softer classes aren't inappropriate, especially for beginners.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no


If you considered it and rejected it (with some rational reason), that would be healthier than not even considering it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> but the,current stereo type of a black belt, is it a portly out of breath dude with a bad back, fallen arches and an irregular heart beat, that's not a good selling point to attract people into ma, unless you are in a similar bad way


I've not ever, even once, met someone who expressed that as an expectation of what a BB would be.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is something we can debate, Jobo. I'm not sure the problem is the old, out-of-shape folks wearing black belts. I think it's more likely the "soft" nature of early (and in some cases, all) classes. Nobody gets bent out of shape if a boxing coach gets old, as long as they still get results.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure the target market of most MA schools would stay more than a few classes if they had two hours of highly intense exercise every class. I'm not sure what the answer is to that conundrum.
> 
> EDIT: Re-reading this, I should be clear. I think the softer classes aren't inappropriate, especially for beginners.


my issue isn't with the instructer being past it, they can give a lot even if they can so it themselves any more. It's rather ma becoming a muddled aged pass time.

by bending to accommodate the lowest common level, they are spoiling the brand and then only attracting people who can't do the hard stuff, so more out of condition black belts leads to the whole art being a joke.

look at the people,cross fit has attracted, not,coz its easy, but coz its very very hard and possibly unwise, but very popular


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> they are impossible to separate, i need the fitness to lift my leg just as i need to the technique to kick properly, my punching techneque is of no use if I'm so out of breath i can't co ordinate my punches. Like any athletic activerty it requires a,good measure of both. That why i can't play soccer with 18 yo any more, my skills,are there, my fitness isnt


They are not inseparable. There are many parts of MA that can be performed at varying levels of fitness. Some are more closely tied to certain areas of fitness (stamina, strength, flexibility). Few, indeed, are tied to all areas of fitness.

When you say you can't play soccer with 18 YO, what I think you mean is you can't play with 18 YO who are reasonably skilled and more fit than you. I'll bet you could still (if you have good skill) be an asset among less-skilled and/or not-so-fit 18 YO. The same would be true of your MA. A highly skilled BB who has gotten out of shape won't be able to do several rounds of heavy sparring with someone of similar skill who is in much better shape, but they may still be able to manhandle someone who's in great shape but unskilled.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've not ever, even once, met someone who expressed that as an expectation of what a BB would be.


perhaps not then they turn up to class find that's is the case and go and do mma instead


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Because people who's misunderstanding of what is a martial artist is completely based on this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, don't mock Iron Fist!


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> They are not inseparable. There are many parts of MA that can be performed at varying levels of fitness. Some are more closely tied to certain areas of fitness (stamina, strength, flexibility). Few, indeed, are tied to all areas of fitness.
> 
> When you say you can't play soccer with 18 YO, what I think you mean is you can't play with 18 YO who are reasonably skilled and more fit than you. I'll bet you could still (if you have good skill) be an asset among less-skilled and/or not-so-fit 18 YO. The same would be true of your MA. A highly skilled BB who has gotten out of shape won't be able to do several rounds of heavy sparring with someone of similar skill who is in much better shape, but they may still be able to manhandle someone who's in great shape but unskilled.


no they run round me like I'm a tree, i have to go in nets for half an hour whilst they burn themselves out, then i can nearly catch them


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> my idea of a computer hacker is the girl from the,dragon tattoo, you appear to be going off topic
> 
> the problem is that the fat out of breath dude is the reality of a lot of black belts, hence my point they should be demoted for the good of the ma


Do you think the little yellow line on the belt of the chief instructor of a school will communicate to prospective students that he's a "black belt, retired"?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> no they run round me like I'm a tree


If they aren't very skilled, intercepting them is fairly easy. I certainly don't have the soccer stamina I once had, and my skills have degraded a lot, too. But put me on a field (with some coordination) with unskilled 18 YO, and I'll cause them problems. Even with my knees. Now, if they are reasonably skilled (which would put them at least on my level, now), then they can easily run rings around me.


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Do you think the little yellow line on the belt of the chief instructor of a school will communicate to prospective students that he's a "black belt, retired"?


as much as those other flashes they have on their belts communicated their meaning


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> perhaps not then they turn up to class find that's is the case and go and do mma instead


That's a different argument. Pick one, so we can talk through the thoughts.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> as much as those other flashes they have on their belts communicated their meaning


Exactly. A prospective student won't know what any of it means. If anything, the yellow stripe will appear to be an enhanced marking. You'd still have the problem you suggest exists. Same goes for inventing a new belt color.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you considered it and rejected it (with some rational reason), that would be healthier than not even considering it.


why would i even consider that my view are not worth while?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> why would i even consider that my view are not worth while?


That wasn't what he asked you.


----------



## Buka (Nov 27, 2017)

You guys probably haven't played chess with a pigeon.

No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That wasn't what he asked you.


it very much is, he asked if i had the standing to make my views with while, my view are always worth while


----------



## Hyoho (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course I'm steadfastly insisting my view is correct, its my view and i believe it to be,correct or it wouldn't be my view?????



So exactly how many shodan shikens (Black belt gradings) have you taken?


----------



## Hyoho (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes, i think the current black belt situation is WRONG, that why I'm am posting on this thread, if i thought it was right i wouldn't have bothered



Nothing actually wrong with it. Most gradings are done by associations. They vary and have different takes on what constitutes grades. Sadly a black belt spells money in the West. 

The biggest downfall has to be those that reach what they think is a high rank in the West then go to places like Japan and get beat up by kids. I took Japanese High school shodan to London and he fought the whole dojo and beat everybody "twice over". Nobody wants a double standard.

So who retires? I haven't. Refined would be better word.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Sadly a black belt spells money in the West.


Why do you continue to make statements like this? That's far from universal.


----------



## Hyoho (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is something we can debate, Jobo. I'm not sure the problem is the old, out-of-shape folks wearing black belts. I think it's more likely the "soft" nature of early (and in some cases, all) classes. Nobody gets bent out of shape if a boxing coach gets old, as long as they still get results.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure the target market of most MA schools would stay more than a few classes if they had two hours of highly intense exercise every class. I'm not sure what the answer is to that conundrum.
> 
> EDIT: Re-reading this, I should be clear. I think the softer classes aren't inappropriate, especially for beginners.



To me even sugesting getting old is joke. It's like comparing a human with a mosquito. The human is the old guy the young one the mosquito. You watch it buzz around like an idiot and you 'swat it'. My 74 year old sensei beat the hell out of me twice day every day and I already had Nidan taken in Japan. I think I posted this before: You get into the dojo a bit late. No one is not practicing but watching. Up the top end is an impeccably dressed guy in bogu (armour). He's fighting a guy you know to be a 7th police riot squad instructor. The other guy makes him look like begginer. They bow off and remove their armour. The visitor is in his late 70s and 9th dan. That what MA is all about. It's not boxing. It's probably what partly drew me towards it as something I can practice and teach as long as I can walk. 

It's not really reaching for the next belt either. What you have is recognition of what you already are. The dropout rate in Japan is Rokudan. Not so many that can get higher.


----------



## Hyoho (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Why do you continue to make statements like this? That's far from universal.



 Of course not always. But earning money from teaching it in Japan is against the budo constitution. 

So dont you think that when money is involved it somewhat changes the outlook on what is required to make the grade?

Not that I am saying its bad.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 27, 2017)

jobo said:


> ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.


Which black belt test?  In my association alone, there've been about 6 or more formats over the years...  What does mine mean in someone else's?  What about systems with no formal test?

What are you trying to prove or show as "still rates" a black belt?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 27, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Of course not always. But earning money from teaching it in Japan is against the budo constitution.
> 
> So dont you think that when money is involved it somewhat changes the outlook on what is required to make the grade?
> 
> Not that I am saying its bad.


It can change it, but doesn't necessarily. I charge for classes, but never factor that into my decisions, except in deciding what price point is likely to bring the most students, because I prefer teaching groups to teaching individuals. Many instructors allow laxity at the lowest ranks to keep income up, but all the ones I know are much stricter as the student progresses, and promoting to a higher rank rarely presents much opportunity for income on a per-hour basis.


----------



## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> my idea of a computer hacker is the girl from the,dragon tattoo, you appear to be going off topic


Nope.  You just don't want to see the point.



> the problem is that the fat out of breath dude is the reality of a lot of black belts, hence my point they should be demoted for the good of the ma


Still waiting for proof that this is a problem.


----------



## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> by bending to accommodate the lowest common level, they are spoiling the brand


What "brand?"  And why do you care?


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Nope.  You just don't want to see the point.
> 
> Still waiting for proof that this is a problem.


you have had evidence, proof is what you decieded to make of my that evidence, 

clearly you believe that tma is going from strengh to strengh, rather than my view that its in a death spiral and needs to radically change if it wants to prosper


----------



## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> you have had evidence, proof is what you decieded to make of my that evidence,


That's not how "proof" works.



> clearly you believe that tma is going from strengh to strengh, rather than my view that its in a death spiral and needs to radically change if it wants to prosper


No.  "Clearly" I think that a black belt, and any grading really, only means what the certifying body says that it means, regardless of what you'd really really like it to be.  See the problem is that, for some inexplicable reason, you think you should get to dictate to thousands of organizations around the world what their standards for grading should be, and your standards are apparently based on some caricature of "black belt."  Yeah, good luck with that.

You want gradings to mean something else?  Start your own danged organization.


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2017)

lklawson said:


> That's not how "proof" works.
> 
> No.  "Clearly" I think that a black belt, and any grading really, only means what the certifying body says that it means, regardless of what you'd really really like it to be.  See the problem is that, for some inexplicable reason, you think you should get to dictate to thousands of organizations around the world what their standards for grading should be, and your standards are apparently based on some caricature of "black belt."  Yeah, good luck with that.
> 
> You want gradings to mean something else?  Start your own danged organization.


that's exactly how proof works, no body has proof ! they just have evidence , proof is if the jury, or in this case you choose to believe that evidence.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Nov 28, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I think you have stated a good response correctly.
> 
> Sounds like my GM.  He invented a Kwan.  When he reached his 70s he was still able to do a lot of things we kept striving to do.  Reverse spin kick or some other thing that relied on younger joints?  He didn't need to be able to do that perfectly as he had younger black belts to do that.  But if you tried and did anything wrong, he could tell you and tell you what you needed to do to correct it.  If you wanted to know how to do a particular joint lock better, he was your best person to ask and to demonstrate it.  And don't ask him to demonstrate a pain pressure point because you don't think you are doing it quite right!
> 
> ...



Had to come back in here and fix this.  @Tony Dismukes since I was afraid on reading this again that it might look as if I was accusing you of wanting to demote my GM in his own style.  That was directed at jobo.  I just wanted to clarify/correct any misunderstanding.  Sorry if anyone did misunderstand. Sometimes I think faster than I type; a wonder to behold.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 28, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Had to come back in here and fix this.  @Tony Dismukes since I was afraid on reading this again that it might look as if I was accusing you of wanting to demote my GM in his own style.  That was directed at jobo.  I just wanted to clarify/correct any misunderstanding.  Sorry if anyone did misunderstand. Sometimes I think faster than I type; a wonder to behold.


No worries. I understood from context who you were talking to.


----------



## Zombocalypse (Nov 28, 2017)

OP, I think you raised some very good questions. I like it.

I'm not a martial artist. I have very little experience in fighting and martial arts so I can't really say much with regards to the legitimacy of belts. But I will say this...

I believe in the value of *sparring. *I believe that sparring is as important as "drills", if I may call them that. Sparring is as close you can get with simulating a real match, *and that is priceless. *It is the same mentality in weightlifting and powerlifting. In weightlifting, for example, you don't waste your time doing **** like curls or upright rows. You train for attributes that are applicable for your event. Which means squats, deadlifts, and overhead presses and etcetera. And NO to tricep extensions and concentration curls. The value of sparring is as important as power cleans are with weightlifting (OLYMPIC).

I think belts should be eliminated from the whole system and replaced with "records". It's a radical idea, I know. But I'm a radical man. I believe that martial artists should be judged by two things: How many valid matches they've had and how often they won. I believe that such a barometer is a much more accurate way of gauging the fighter's competence level much more so than a belt.

Sparring with others should count as legitimate matches and their results should be recorded. And then use those records to give a proper title to the fighter.

But like I said, I'm a radical man with radical ideas.


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## jobo (Nov 28, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> OP, I think you raised some very good questions. I like it.
> 
> I'm not a martial artist. I have very little experience in fighting and martial arts so I can't really say much with regards to the legitimacy of belts. But I will say this...
> 
> ...


that is radical, if you only gave rank to those who could win fights, then a good fifty % of current black belts wouldn't be, that sounds like it will be less popular than my relegation strategy?


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## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's exactly how proof works, no body has proof ! they just have evidence , proof is if the jury, or in this case you choose to believe that evidence.


Nope.  Proof is *NOT* what I decide "to make of" "your evidence."

That's not how proof works.


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## jobo (Nov 28, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Nope.  Proof is *NOT* what I decide "to make of" "your evidence."
> 
> That's not how proof works.


yes it is, nothing can be proved if people don't accept the evidence,


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## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> I think belts should be eliminated from the whole system and replaced with "records". It's a radical idea, I know. But I'm a radical man. I believe that martial artists should be judged by two things: How many valid matches they've had and how often they won. I believe that such a barometer is a much more accurate way of gauging the fighter's competence level much more so than a belt.
> 
> Sparring with others should count as legitimate matches and their results should be recorded. And then use those records to give a proper title to the fighter.
> 
> But like I said, I'm a radical man with radical ideas.


Not particularly radical.  Been going on for centuries.  The Company of Masters required their students to put out a public challenge to all comers and fight them all for each test (every 7 years).  Boxing and Savate are competition based.  Heck I had a friend years ago who related that he couldn't attain Shodan in Judo while training in Japan without winning a match against someone already a Shodan.  An important part of BJJ ranking is that the candidate must be able to "hang with" the next "rank" up.

The idea is neither new nor radical and has a long established presence with any number of variations on the theme.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes it is, nothing can be proved if people don't accept the evidence,


So we've moved to three subjects you don't really understand and just make stuff up about.  What do you do for your big finale?


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## jobo (Nov 28, 2017)

tell you what you try and prove something to me, anything and see how far you get


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## Saheim (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's exactly how proof works, no body has proof ! they just have evidence , proof is if the jury, or in this case you choose to believe that evidence.



I don't have a dog in this fight.  I really don't care about the original topic BUT I feel the need to address what you said, and how others responded to it, concerning"proof".

Your definition is consistent with my many years of experience in a court room.  We were taught - "evidence" is anything that supports your claim.  It can be physical, it can be video, it can be spoken testimony of witnesses.  "Proof" on the other hand, is the RESULT of evidence.  A bloody knife is not proof, it is evidence.  Proof is what the bloody knife resulted in, coupled with other evidence.  So yea, your statement about proof being what we make of the evidence is pretty accurate.

I know we'e getting into symantecs, here, it is just one of those things that bothers me a little like people mixing up "assault" and "battery".  I've long since stopped correcting folks who say "that is assault!" when someone hits someone else (without justification)


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## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

jobo said:


> tell you what you try and prove something to me, anything and see how far you get


You go first.


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## JR 137 (Nov 28, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> OP, I think you raised some very good questions. I like it.
> 
> I'm not a martial artist. I have very little experience in fighting and martial arts so I can't really say much with regards to the legitimacy of belts. But I will say this...
> 
> ...


As lklawson said, it’s not that radical.

The main point of my reply...
Sparring isn’t a competition; it’s a learning experience.  Sparring doesn’t have a winner nor a loser, it’s supposed to have two people who come away with more information going out than they came in with.

Sparring is a time for me to see what works and what doesn’t.  I try new things.  I try the fundamentals/basics in new ways, be it in setup, counters, etc.  I try to do things I’m not good at so I can minimize my weaknesses.  Basically, I’m practicing.  If I go a round without landing a single blow, it’s no more of a loss than if I landed every single one.

Competition and actual fights have winners and losers, sparring doesn’t.  There’s quite a few oyour there who try to “win” while sparring.  I’ve been that guy quite a few times too.


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## lklawson (Nov 28, 2017)

Saheim said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight.  I really don't care about the original topic BUT I feel the need to address what you said, and how others responded to it, concerning"proof".
> 
> Your definition is consistent with my many years of experience in a court room.  We were taught - "evidence" is anything that supports your claim.  It can be physical, it can be video, it can be spoken testimony of witnesses.  "Proof" on the other hand, is the RESULT of evidence.  A bloody knife is not proof, it is evidence.  Proof is what the bloody knife resulted in, coupled with other evidence.  So yea, your statement about proof being what we make of the evidence is pretty accurate.
> 
> I know we'e getting into symantecs, here, it is just one of those things that bothers me a little like people mixing up "assault" and "battery".  I've long since stopped correcting folks who say "that is assault!" when someone hits someone else (without justification)


It's a good thing that we're not talking about a Court Room, then, right?

Further, I'm still waiting for him to provide "proof" of his thesis: That his definition of a black belt should be accepted by everyone, that anyone who doesn't meet his definition should be stripped of rank, that anyone who doesn't meet his definition is degrading the "brand" (what?), and that the correct (his) definition is basically whatever the general public believes a "black belt" is.

Even going by Court Room "proof" (instead of one of the several other uses of the term) have you seen anything out of him which even comes close to evidence, never mind "proof?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Saheim (Nov 28, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Even going by Court Room "proof" (instead of one of the several other uses of the term) have you seen anything out of him which even comes close to evidence, never mind "proof?"
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Not really.  That might be why I was compelled to point out the one thing he did get right


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 28, 2017)

Zombocalypse said:


> OP, I think you raised some very good questions. I like it.
> 
> I'm not a martial artist. I have very little experience in fighting and martial arts so I can't really say much with regards to the legitimacy of belts. But I will say this...
> 
> ...


There are a lot of us with little interest in competition, for various reasons. Depending upon records requires two things that don't (and never will) exist: parity between competitions, and all martial artists competing.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 28, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> No worries. I understood from context who you were talking to.



Thanks.  Very gracious of you.


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## Headhunter (Dec 8, 2017)

To me I don't care about other people and their rank. Maybe that sounds selfish or whatever but simply it doesn't matter to me at all if a guy gets a black belt in 2 weeks and is actually garbage that doesn't affect me it only affects him. People should stop worrying about other people and just focus on their own training


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