# to touch or not to touch



## Manny (Feb 9, 2010)

I always use control on my techs, never pull the puch or the kick, instead I try to use full speed with some contact.

Last night I saw my classmates doing techs and noticed they actually don't hit, I mean they position is away from the partner, their movements are slopy and they simply pull the blow from the contact area, I performed hiting,punching and kicking with controled moves and not only touching my partner(s) but hiting them without any harm.

I tried to encorauge the classmates to feel the tech and say hitting is a must, that we don't have to ko the partner or took their breath away but actually feel the impact in both ways, I mean the one who recieves the blow and the the one who delivers it.

I think it does not harm to touch a little.

One of the 4 classmates whom I was worked on got the message and performed as I wanted, we did very good techs with character,speed and acuracy and without harming each other even when kicking the groin area.

Don't know if guys are afraid to been hit or kick, but we are doing self defense techs not playing with dolls. The way you train is the way you fight.

Manny


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## Drac (Feb 9, 2010)

Manny said:


> Last night I saw my classmates doing techs and noticed they actually don't hit, I mean they position is away from the partner, their movements are slopy and they simply pull the blow from the contact area, I performed hiting,punching and kicking with controled moves and not only touching my partner(s) but hiting them without any harm.


 
That's how I trained way back as a white belt in Shorin-Ryu..The Senior black belts could have beaten the chicken soup outta me but they didnt, they used just enough power for me to feel it...



Manny said:


> I tried to encorauge the classmates to feel the tech and say hitting is a must, that we don't have to ko the partner or took their breath away but actually feel the impact in both ways, I mean the one who recieves the blow and the the one who delivers it.
> 
> I think it does not harm to touch a little.


 
I agree



Manny said:


> One of the 4 classmates whom I was worked on got the message and performed as I wanted, we did very good techs with character,speed and acuracy and without harming each other even when kicking the groin area.


 
I hope you all had a cup...



Manny said:


> Don't know if guys are afraid to been hit or kick, but we are doing self defense techs not playing with dolls. The way you train is the way you fight.Manny


 
One of the police instructors I worked with called getting hit in class *Pain Inoculation..*That way if you get hit in a real fight you dont panic and freeze up..


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2010)

Manny said:


> I always use control on my techs, never pull the puch or the kick, instead I try to use full speed with some contact.
> 
> Last night I saw my classmates doing techs and noticed they actually don't hit, I mean they position is away from the partner, their movements are slopy and they simply pull the blow from the contact area, I performed hiting,punching and kicking with controled moves and not only touching my partner(s) but hiting them without any harm.
> 
> ...


 
This, Manny, is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves in the arts.  I hate nothing more, than when I'm doing techs., and my partner goes to choke and it feels more like a shoulder massage or punches, and stops 5in. away from my face.  Even if you're going thru techs. light, I still think there should be some realism to them.  In other words, when you choke, put your hands on the neck and give a light squeeze.  Other times, when you're going heavy, really put it on. 

Going only part way, vs full on, you'll see a drastic difference.  Personally, I dislike working with people like that...the ones that dont want to be hit, dont hit me, do techs. sloppy or halfass.  If you're not there to train and bust your ***, then get the hell out of the class, because you're taking away from those that do want to learn.  

Keep training hard, and dont let the ones that are slackers get you down.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 9, 2010)

i REQUIRE my students to make contact, and I will dress them down if they dont

"no contact" schools should be re-named "no learning" schools


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## Drac (Feb 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> .I hate nothing more, than when I'm doing techs., and my partner goes to choke and it feels more like a shoulder massage or punches, and stops 5in. away from my face. Even if you're going thru techs. light, I still think there should be some realism to them. In other words, when you choke, put your hands on the neck and give a light squeeze. Other times, when you're going heavy, really put it on.


 
Yup...I attended a ground survival school for LEO's and we were required to really pour it on if we could tolerate it..Talk about realism..I have a 200+lbs officer sitting on my chest squeezing my neck and mean REALLY squeezing..Now that was training...



MJS said:


> .Going only part way, vs full on, you'll see a drastic difference. Personally, I dislike working with people like that...the ones that dont want to be hit, dont hit me, do techs. sloppy or halfass. If you're not there to train and bust your ***, then get the hell out of the class, because you're taking away from those that do want to learn.
> 
> Keep training hard, and dont let the ones that are slackers get you down.


 
It saddens me that I can no longer train with the intensity I use too, aka being slammed down...The injuries I sustained in the line of duty have made that impossible..But I still train and teach...If I put a hold on a student I will tell them If dont feel pain from their escape technique I am gonna increase the force, that kind of intense training I can still do..

*Off Topic Comment:* One of the departments that I use to work for would not let me hold regular classes for the officers..They were afraid that someone would get hurt during training..


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## Manny (Feb 9, 2010)

I like to be a little rough, for example when I do crashing wings I come from behind my partner in a rush,grab him and lift him from the ground to work in a almost real scenario and yes I squeeze a little with my grab, and when it's my turn to defend myself I like my partner be a little rough too, we need to feel the atack and we need to feel the couteratack.

One of my classmates is a big guy like myself but he's so sloopy that I have to ask him to be a little rude and try to intimidate me and yes some times we puch a little harder but that's the name of the game.

Last week in my TKD class I show a couple of guys some kenpo techs, one of them uses some kind of triggered salute but using a claw hand delivered to my trachea and yes he blow was hard enough to cause me discofort, I smiled to my partner and said.. You got it! Thats the way to do it! if your blow is more poweful you can rupture the trachea and can incapacitate a bad guy but... for practicing in the dojo the way you punch me is very good.

Manny


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## jks9199 (Feb 9, 2010)

You ain't training if there's not some discomfort and risk of mild injury.  You're just dancing.

It's easy to block punches that don't have any real force and aren't even in range.  But you won't be able to handle the real thing if that's all you've faced...


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## K-man (Feb 9, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> *It's easy to block punches that don't have any real force and aren't even in range.*  But you won't be able to handle the real thing if that's all you've faced...


That's the real point.  If the attack has no intent you don't have to do anything to defend.  At times with body punches I will get my partner to actually hit me.  Then I will ask him to hit harder.  Now his attack will be real, just he doesn't know that I am going to respond. My action against his attack takes him by surprise because he is actually focussed on hitting me hard.  :asian:


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 9, 2010)

Look at his comments near the end on control. It's not pulling, it's control.


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## Xinglu (Feb 9, 2010)

I think it is paramount to understanding is you can FEEL the tech.  Personally, if I  don't have some bruises at the end of class I don't feel like I trained well.

However, we all wear cups so groin shots always have more zing on them.


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## dianhsuhe (Feb 9, 2010)

Good thread...

I actually believe in the "pain inoculation" mentioned above.  You literally need to learn to take a shot in order to not panic or curl-up in the street.  

We cater the techniques and contact to the individual and/or skill level and try to not get carried away.  In Kara-Ho Kempo at green belt for example we start to turn it on and that is when the real growth happens (IMHO).

Our newest school is a commercial deal so we need to walk the fine line of hard training and "bad" business carefully.

I have actually been "counseled" by my teacher recently for being "too tough" on students.  This would be a good thing as long as the definition for being "too tough" isn't:


Requiring students to do a sweep, throw or takedown if it is *IN THE TECHNIQUE* they are doing. (I even put out the mats for this- GEESH)
Requiring students to exercise the proper etiquette (Bowing, paying respects to BB's, etc.)
Admonishing them for "talking back" to the instructors. (No explanation should be necessary)
I could go on...I take self-defense seriously and our system is known for hard and sincere training.  Not many folks make it to Blackbelt in Kara-Ho and that is something we wear as a badge of honor.
James


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## MattJ (Feb 10, 2010)

I think contact is good, with the understanding that resistance and contact should be progressive. Less experienced folk get less intensity, increasing as they get used to it. Higher ranks should be prepared for occasional hobbling, seeing stars, or heaving. LOL.


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## tomshem (Feb 10, 2010)

Nothing peeves me more when I see my students doing that... I tell them they are training themselves to miss... 

Of course, I love it when they make bold statements about how a technique won't work... so I have to "show" them... hehehehe

and finally, too much contact also defeats the purpose as the uki will then flinch or tighten up or twist out of the way, making the whole exercise worthless with both sides fustrated having learned nothing!  and further, neither person quite trusting the other... *sigh*


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## Drac (Feb 10, 2010)

tomshem said:


> Of course, I love it when they make bold statements about how a technique won't work... so I have to "show" them... hehehehe


 
LOL....There is *ALWAYS *one in every class...When attending the police instructors class they brought in a 6th Dan in Judo to show us the Shim-Waza or the choke out..Yes, one of these idiots walked up to him and said no one could do it to him..You would not believe how fast he went out...


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## searcher (Feb 10, 2010)

In my own school and the school I am currently training in, we encourage and are encouraged to make contact.    And most of the time it is fairly heavy on the contact.     I feel it helps the students to get the technique correct if they are making some good ol' fashioned contact.   Its not like anyone is trying to kill anyone in class, but I am sure to many outsiders it looks and sounds like we are beating the crap out of each other.


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## seasoned (Feb 10, 2010)

When a full powered punch, traveling at full speed, reaches full extension, it only lacks distance to do damage. Once we understand this distance factor we can do some real damage. When training with a partner, contact is always good, but proper distance is the key over just hitting them. I feel that once you learn the length of your arms and legs while keeping form and structure, you will bridge the difference between truly striking someone, or "hit/pushing" them. Heavy punching bags are notorious for teaching us to push rather then strike a target. I fully agree with everyone on this thread as long as it is full power with controlled  distance, as opposed to pulling or decelerating the hit at contact. Now to make a long story short, yes, hitting is very good.


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## chubbybutdangerous (Feb 10, 2010)

:asian:Greetings,
  I also agree that contact is a must even if just a "love tap".  I believe (and have witnessed) that people fight how they train.  In other words if you train to "miss" your chances are greater that you will miss in real time.  I feel that purposely "missing" can mess up your timing and especially your sense of range.  Besides, you never really "know" a technique or application unless you both do it with some realism to someone else and have it done to you.  I especially believe this to be true with locks/wrenches/chokes etc.  Don't get me wrong, I don't try to rip anybody's arms out of their sockets, I pride myself in caring for my training partners/students.  But "knowing about a technique/application" and being able to execute it effectively are two completely different things in my book.  On the other hand, I think making full contact with no precautions or doing it just to prove how macho you are, without considering the welfare of your training partner/students is just moronic.


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## Xinglu (Feb 10, 2010)

Cbd - :roflmao:  Love the handle!  Welcome to MT!


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## just2kicku (Feb 11, 2010)

I believe like everyone else here, that contact is a must. Cups will be busted, ribs will be bruised and black eyes are par for the course. The fight how you train is dead on. I have been hit by students in the mouth when I've told them to punch, then turned to say something else and they've punched. Who's fault, mine of course for not blocking. In the BB class, we actually try to break each others cup. 

Its one thing to go slow when learning the tech, but when you have a fist coming at your face at full speed, you have a tendency of moving a lot faster.


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## youngbraveheart (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm glad my teacher shows control and only touches to cause the uke to react when he shows us new techniques. 

We "touch" enough to make the uke react, but we don't hit even close to  half power to our intended targets. There's got to be some control,  otherwise there won't be anyone around to train with.  Besides, the  continued lack of control by any of us training essentially allows for  paybacks...as they say, "payback's a *****!"


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## Big Don (Mar 7, 2010)

The way my instructor puts it is simple:
Anyone can punch or kick, this is about learning to TAKE a punch and a kick. We take care of each other, we aren't out to break anyone, but, contact is a vital part. It isn't enough to punch the air. A bad attacker in class won't help you learn. If the punch isn't going to hit you, you don't need to block it. A realistically thrown punch or kick makes it a hell of a lot easier to execute properly.


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## Aikicomp (Mar 7, 2010)

Yes, contact is a must in training for all the reasons stated above. 

Our style requires no contact (safety reasons) for white belt and white belt-blue tip students, we keep 4-6 inches away with the potential to hit the intended target with power and focus.
Once they make their Blue belt we have a control test called the ball test that everyone must pass for their next rank and I make that their first after getting blue belt. 

After you pass that test you *must* make contact when doing self-defense.

Michael


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## Bill Smith (Mar 27, 2010)

At lower ranks, light contact is necessary because of the techniques at hand. As they go up in rank and skills, so should the attacks and contact. Everyone as a student is different and the instructor should be in control as to when the students move in that direction. Kenpo is full of nasty strikes, so you want the student to move and gain control of his/her motions in the studio and the streets. There are different levels in Kenpo and you don't want them to know that it's full force every time your in a technique line with not knowing control.


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## punisher73 (Mar 28, 2010)

My biggest pet peeve when I tell someone to throw a punch to my head and even if I didn't move the punch wouldn't hit me.  It is either off to the side or not even close.

I think some people are more concerned with helping their partner look good doing the technique than helping their partner learning the technique.

Advantage boxers and other contact sports have over most MA schools.  The object is to actually hit the other person, and it is the other persons job to protect themselve and get out of the way.


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## Hawke (Mar 31, 2010)

How much I touch depends on my partner.  For those with little experience light contact so they understand which targets on them are getting hit.  For those willing to go harder we go harder.

I also agree that getting hit helps with pain inoculation.

Getting hit with empty hands can sting.

Getting hit with rattan sticks (or any solid objects).....that hurts.


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## DavidCC (Apr 5, 2010)

as the attacker, the attack should be on target, and for other-than-beginner students, should make controlled contact if not avoided/blocked/etc.

as the defender, you should not train to miss your target.  However some targets (some techniques) the targets are too vulnerable especially given setups in the techs, so any contact would be too much.  However it is still important not to train to miss.  So if the strike(s) in your technique cannot be delivered at all without injury (palm heel to the face?), it should still be directed to the target, just pulled short of contact.  If the target can be contacted without issue, then it should, at the level of intensity desired by both partners.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 5, 2010)

DavidCC said:


> as the attacker, the attack should be on target, and for other-than-beginner students, should make controlled contact if not avoided/blocked/etc.
> 
> as the defender, you should not train to miss your target. However some targets (some techniques) the targets are too vulnerable especially given setups in the techs, so any contact would be too much. However it is still important not to train to miss. So if the strike(s) in your technique cannot be delivered at all without injury (palm heel to the face?), it should still be directed to the target, just pulled short of contact. If the target can be contacted without issue, then it should, at the level of intensity desired by both partners.


There is a rule where I train, and that rule is that I am not allowed to hurt anybody; so, as an attacker, I get to hit colored belts in the shoulder instead of the face when they attempt a technique. I see the logic.
Sean


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