# Dillman



## Sin (Oct 7, 2004)

tell me what you know about this guy, and why is there a symbol on his site that looks like a swastica.   http://www.aarkj.com/main.htm


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## loki09789 (Oct 7, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> tell me what you know about this guy, and why is there a symbol on his site that looks like a swastica. http://www.aarkj.com/main.htm


Dillman toured with Remy PResas and Wally Jay for years and taught Pressure point techniques.  His bio/resume is on the site so you can read up on that.

The Swastics looking thing is clearly identified as a Modern Arnis logo.  The image is of a chain of hands holding weapons (looks like knives, sometimes it is sticks on other logos).

Most of the Modern Arnis old timers can fill in the specifics better though.


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## Sin (Oct 7, 2004)

No offence to anyone but I was told that Dillman riped off Oyota of Ryukyu Kempo.......


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## loki09789 (Oct 7, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> No offence to anyone but I was told that Dillman riped off Oyota of Ryukyu Kempo.......


The info is out there to do your own searching.

 Any stuff from an Oyata group that implies such 'ripping off'?


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## Sin (Oct 7, 2004)

well sure there not gonna admit it they have dignity........just like if you cheated off a test are you gonna tell on someone that looked off your paper.  i know I wouldn't..i really wouldn't care as long as we didn't get caught.......Dillman has no leniage to anyone is the anicent arts...so there really is one way he could have learned and that is through Oyota or someone clsoe to him...dillman has made a lot of money...he should at least pay hommage to Oyota.


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## loki09789 (Oct 7, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The info is out there to do your own searching.
> 
> Any stuff from an Oyata group that implies such 'ripping off'?


Personally, I don't know if there are any Oyata supporters who are complaining.  So, did he 'rip Oyata off' or is it 'success envy?'

Sorry if I sound testy but this "he did wrong" stuff in MA gets old real fast, especially when there is so much behind the scenes information that is not known to people who choose to judge.


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## Flatlander (Oct 7, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Sorry if I sound testy but this "he did wrong" stuff in MA gets old real fast, especially when there is so much behind the scenes information that is not known to people who choose to judge.


I have to agree with this completely.  The fact of the matter is, all too often people take the scraps of information that they have about someone, invent some type of illogically deduced worst case scenario, and then go off badmouthing others without having known all of the relevant information.

Please bear in mind that I know nothing about George Dillman either.  But apparently, neither do you, Sin.  I think you should do more research before you publicly condemn the man - would you not wish the same for others who would publicly discuss you?


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## Xequat (Oct 7, 2004)

From what I understand, Dillman did train with Oyata, but he respects Oyata a great deal. Dillman supposedly first started learning pressure points from Hohan Soken, whom I believe has a long, distinguished lineage under his belt, all the way back to some king or something. I'm not an expert on Dillman, but there's some info that I've heard.  So maybe you could start there with your investigating. I'm sure RRousselot (Oyata) and ppko (DKI) on MartialTalk could give you a little more direction.


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## loki09789 (Oct 7, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> I have to agree with this completely. The fact of the matter is, all too often people take the scraps of information that they have about someone, invent some type of illogically deduced worst case scenario, and then go off badmouthing others without having known all of the relevant information.
> 
> Please bear in mind that I know nothing about George Dillman either. But apparently, neither do you, Sin. I think you should do more research before you publicly condemn the man - would you not wish the same for others who would publicly discuss you?


Some day, someone will be complaining about being slapped with a libel suite over crap like this.  These types of comments/agendas could be construed as impeding with said person's ability to do business because of it.  Especially considering the scope/reach of internet forums.

This stuff is just 'not cricket' as it is, but it could end up in legal hands if it keeps going as it has.

For people who extole the 'character growth' of martial arts training, there sure is a lot of libelous, petty commentary about the 'family'.


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## Samurai (Oct 7, 2004)

Just a point of order.....the symbol is not a Modern Arnis symbol but an old symbol used for Okinawan Karate.  You can find this symbol on the cover of several books including:

Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...9201/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_2_1/103-1123277-8158201

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
http://www.WoodlandArchery.com


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## chinto01 (Oct 7, 2004)

Just a thought on the whole this one ripped off that one theory. In order to ripp someone off does that person not have to own something? In my opinion the martial arts are not something to be owned by one individual or group. It is something that should be shared as common knowledge. I believe that this is why we have the whole my style is better than your style thing going on. Why not all share different techniques and begin to unify things instead of claiming ownershipon techniques which leads to the he ripped me off arguement. Like I said just a thought but that is what we do at our dojo. We have black belts in our own system that train with others from other systems and we all get together to incorporate new things and share techniques and nobody walks away saying anything was stolen but shared with one another.


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## Xequat (Oct 7, 2004)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> Just a thought on the whole this one ripped off that one theory. In order to ripp someone off does that person not have to own something? In my opinion the martial arts are not something to be owned by one individual or group. It is something that should be shared as common knowledge. I believe that this is why we have the whole my style is better than your style thing going on. Why not all share different techniques and begin to unify things instead of claiming ownershipon techniques which leads to the he ripped me off arguement. Like I said just a thought but that is what we do at our dojo. We have black belts in our own system that train with others from other systems and we all get together to incorporate new things and share techniques and nobody walks away saying anything was stolen but shared with one another.


Yeah, I agree on a philosophical scale, but there is too much money involved and too many different styles for one person to learn everything.  Certain styles work for certain people, too, so brown belt level material for one style might not be as useful and might be too difficult for a black belt in a defferent style.  Some people train to fight and some train for sport, so we have several different styles.


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## loki09789 (Oct 7, 2004)

Samurai said:
			
		

> Just a point of order.....the symbol is not a Modern Arnis symbol but an old symbol used for Okinawan Karate. You can find this symbol on the cover of several books including:
> 
> Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804832056/qid=1097169201/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_2_1/103-1123277-8158201
> 
> ...


I thought he was talking about the stylized hands holding weapons when the swastica reference was made.  The other logos have the three pointed logo that is a variance on the Ying Yang idea (and my Okinawan mother would whip me for not being able to remember the name at the moment).

THe point is that none of these symbols have any intentional relation to the NAZI ideology or swastika


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## ppko (Oct 7, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> well sure there not gonna admit it they have dignity........just like if you cheated off a test are you gonna tell on someone that looked off your paper. i know I wouldn't..i really wouldn't care as long as we didn't get caught.......Dillman has no leniage to anyone is the anicent arts...so there really is one way he could have learned and that is through Oyota or someone clsoe to him...dillman has made a lot of money...he should at least pay hommage to Oyota.


George Dillman did not rip off Seiyu Oyata in matter of fact he admits training with him and has never spoken anything but highly of him.  Hohan Soken showed George that there is more to the Martial Arts than what he had been shown so he started training with different masters Oyata was one of them but he has trained with many others and he is always researching and finding out more stuff.  Everything that DKI does has not come from one man but from many,  as I am sure that is the case for many Martial Artists


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## ppko (Oct 7, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> tell me what you know about this guy, and why is there a symbol on his site that looks like a swastica. http://www.aarkj.com/main.htm


Who are you talking about George Dillman, Chris Mitter, or Mark Yercheck


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## ppko (Oct 7, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> well sure there not gonna admit it they have dignity........just like if you cheated off a test are you gonna tell on someone that looked off your paper. i know I wouldn't..i really wouldn't care as long as we didn't get caught.......Dillman has no leniage to anyone is the anicent arts...so there really is one way he could have learned and that is through Oyota or someone clsoe to him...dillman has made a lot of money...he should at least pay hommage to Oyota.


You say no disrespect in the post before this, but in this post you most deffinately are showing disrespect.  Which is it going to be, if you want a good conversation about these matters than at least talk like you want one.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> From what I understand,* 1)Dillman did train with Oyata*, but he respects Oyata a great deal. *2)Dillman supposedly first started learning pressure points from Hohan Soken, *whom I believe has a long, distinguished lineage under his belt, all the way back to some king or something. I'm not an expert on Dillman, but there's some info that I've heard. So maybe you could start there with your investigating. I'm sure RRousselot (Oyata) and ppko (DKI) on MartialTalk could give you a little more direction.


  1) Dillman went to about 6 seminars given by Mr. Oyata.....filming at all of them and rarely training at any of them.

  2) Dillman met Hohan Soken one time.

 Some articles on Hohan Soken:

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=426

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=427

http://www.seitokaratedo.com/Sokenbiofiles/sokenbio1.htm


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## loki09789 (Oct 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Dillman went to about 6 seminars given by Mr. Oyata.....filming at all of them and rarely training at any of them.
> 
> 2) Dillman met Hohan Soken one time.


DING! Round 2 of the Bashfest begins.... call them 'facts' but what is the purpose?

Remember, just like with guns "facts don't kill people's reputations, people kill people's reputations."


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> *1) George Dillman did not rip off Seiyu Oyata in matter of fact he admits training with him and has never spoken anything but highly of him.* _*2)Hohan Soken showed George that there is more to the Martial Arts than what he had been shown so he started training with different masters Oyata was one of them but he has trained with many others*_ and he is always researching and finding out more stuff. Everything that DKI does has not come from one man but from many, as I am sure that is the case for many Martial Artists


 1) Dillman trash talked Mr. Oyata for years claiming he "kicked his ***" in a fight and all sort of other BS. ppko this was waaaaaaaay before your time with Dillamn so I expect you never heard any of the BS Dillman was spreading about my teacher. Although lately Dillman has stopped or cut back his trash talking.......why? Maybe it's because so many folks have gotten wise to him.

 2) In a 1984 July issue of Karate Illistrated Dillman says about his first demo he attended given by Mr. Oyata and I quote Dillman here: "it's like nothing I have ever seen before"........Hohan Soken died in 1982 by the way.


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## Sin (Oct 8, 2004)

Well maybe i need to rephrase my accusations.......Dillman can probably beat me up...maybe not my insructors but that is for another tread/argument...And i am sure what Dillman teaches is good stuff...and I am not saying it dosen't work...only thing I am saying is that he got rich off the stuff, marketing it....so in other words he whould be considered a sell out...Now we have to go back to the never ending debate on..."Well if ya got it flaunt it" kinda deal...like he pop singers of today that are all about money...I mean honestly who really likes matallica's new music...we al least after the law suit with Napster and cutting there hair......New isn't always better..I would really like to her a debate between someone ho has trained with oyota and someone who has trained with dillman...now i know many of you are prolly angry with me for bringing tis up...only thing I am really trying to do is put somethings to rest, and to expand my own knowledge on the subject as well.   Please i do not intend to anger anyone...i would just like to know more on the subject.  And if it takes raddling a few chains then so be it...i just don't like the fact that oyota has been doing what Dillman is doing before Dillman was even born.  And i don't like that Dillman is tking all the creidit :asian:


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## loki09789 (Oct 8, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> ...i just don't like the fact that oyota has been doing what Dillman is doing before Dillman was even born. And i don't like that Dillman is tking all the creidit :asian:


the fact is that chronologically, Oyata was born before Dillman, yes.  So what.  And I don't really see anything on the website that would indicate that Dillman is claiming to take 'all the credit' for anything.  If he has become the 'household name' associated with Tuite/RyuKyu arts in America, so be it.  Call him a good marketer.  We live in America, if he did a better business run than others, that is different than being the most skilled artist...

I'm half Okinawan and got to stay there for a year during my service days...no one really knows who Dillman is over there from what I remember (or at least that was how it was back in the early 90's) so, if it is still that way, the Okinawans don't really pay too much attention to him.  This is a popularity issue more than a credibility issue.

If you want to make a difference, publish an article somewhere, write/talk to Dillman direct, but this is just venting.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

Just as a side note to all of this. Mr. Oyata has never envied Dillman's success ( I asked him), he was more concered with his ability to demonstrate the art......he did dislike the fact that Dillman used the name of his assoc..... Ryukyu Kempo which Dillman was not a member and basically abused the name so badly that Mr. Oyata decided to change the name of his assoc. so as not to be confused with what Dillman was doing. 
 Mr. Oyata has never really been interested in writing a lot of books and making millions from an art that is very personal to him. Has written one book about his training, his teachers and some other things and it has a few things about pressure points but is by no means a "how to manual" on it.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> If you want to make a difference, publish an article somewhere, write/talk to Dillman direct, but this is just venting.


 
 Over the course of 20 years I have had many chances to communicate with Dillman.........it is not venting. 
 You have jumped into to something you know absolutely nothing about.


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## loki09789 (Oct 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Over the course of 20 years I have had many chances to communicate with Dillman.........it is not venting.
> You have jumped into to something you know absolutely nothing about.


Ah, details, no, I don't.  Can I recognize when this "Friendly Discussion" forum is going to become a forum for smeering a reputation by talking about them instead of to them/or finding personal satisfaction from past contacts?  Yup.

Have fun, but remember this the next time people complain about smeer tactics in political campaigns or 'demonizing' the enemy by pidgeon holing them into the "sell out" box.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Ah, details, no, I don't. Can I recognize when this "Friendly Discussion" forum is going to become a forum for smeering a reputation by talking about them instead of to them/or finding personal satisfaction from past contacts? Yup.


 Ya know Dillman said he loved both good and bad PR about him.....he said either way he got his name out there.


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## ppko (Oct 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Dillman trash talked Mr. Oyata for years claiming he "kicked his ***" in a fight and all sort of other BS. ppko this was waaaaaaaay before your time with Dillamn so I expect you never heard any of the BS Dillman was spreading about my teacher. Although lately Dillman has stopped or cut back his trash talking.......why? Maybe it's because so many folks have gotten wise to him.
> 
> 2) In a 1984 July issue of Karate Illistrated Dillman says about his first demo he attended given by Mr. Oyata and I quote Dillman here: "it's like nothing I have ever seen before"........Hohan Soken died in 1982 by the way.


yes it was way before my time, I do not know what happened then from first or second hand accounts.  As I have never inquired but I do know that he no longer bashes Oyata.
George learned a lot from Oyata and he admits that.  And I am sure that what he was shown was very spectacular.  I know that when I saw someone first go out with a light touch it was most deffinately like nothing that I have never seen.


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## Sin (Oct 8, 2004)

Oyota=Traditional
Dillman=Americanized


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## loki09789 (Oct 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Ya know Dillman said he loved both good and bad PR about him.....he said either way he got his name out there.


Then I guess even mentioning any of this is only helping him in the long run, which doesn't seem to be SIN's intention or yours based on the details and reactions to my posts.

I still say take the beef to him if there is one, talking about them instead of to them isn't going to make a difference in how they do business it seems.


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## Sin (Oct 8, 2004)

i would personally like to see what Oyota and dillman have pesonally to say about this thread.  i mean really what would these 2 martial artists say about this whol discussion?  Would they agree to an exibition match, or exchanging of ideas.....


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Then I guess even mentioning any of this is only helping him in the long run, which doesn't seem to be SIN's intention or yours based on the details and reactions to my posts.


 
 My only "agenda" is that certain *facts* based on my first hand knowledge be put forth about Dillman. I could careless if Dillman's books sell a million copies a day.


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## ppko (Oct 8, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> Well maybe i need to rephrase my accusations.......Dillman can probably beat me up...maybe not my insructors but that is for another tread/argument...And i am sure what Dillman teaches is good stuff...and I am not saying it dosen't work...only thing I am saying is that he got rich off the stuff, marketing it....so in other words he whould be considered a sell out...Now we have to go back to the never ending debate on..."Well if ya got it flaunt it" kinda deal...like he pop singers of today that are all about money...I mean honestly who really likes matallica's new music...we al least after the law suit with Napster and cutting there hair......New isn't always better..I would really like to her a debate between someone ho has trained with oyota and someone who has trained with dillman...now i know many of you are prolly angry with me for bringing tis up...only thing I am really trying to do is put somethings to rest, and to expand my own knowledge on the subject as well. Please i do not intend to anger anyone...i would just like to know more on the subject. And if it takes raddling a few chains then so be it...i just don't like the fact that oyota has been doing what Dillman is doing before Dillman was even born. And i don't like that Dillman is tking all the creidit :asian:


Dillman does not take all the credit, he lists his instructors and the people that have helped him out over the years.  People were also doing what Oyata was doing before he was born so what does that mean, it does not take away from the man nor the character..


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## RRouuselot (Oct 8, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> i would personally like to see what Oyota and dillman have pesonally to say about this thread. i mean really what would these 2 martial artists say about this whol discussion? Would they agree to an exibition match, or exchanging of ideas.....


 Mr. Oyata doesn't think about Dillman......he never mentions him and has more important things to think about I am sure.


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## loki09789 (Oct 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Mr. Oyata doesn't think about Dillman......he never mentions him and has more important things to think about I am sure.


So based on the PPKO and RRouselot posts the message could be that it is between the two of them and leave it at that?


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## BushidoUK (Oct 8, 2004)

Just another point about the "swastika" symbol.

I believe, if my memory is right, the swastika was a mirror image of a symbol meaning peace that is still used by the Shorinji Kempo Temples. I can not remember its name though, but I remember seeing it on the handles of several Katanas at Leeds Rotal Armouries and also on the Flags at the Dojo of a Shorinji Kempo Documentary. Hitler liked the image, reversed it and gave it its bad name.... abit like how the extreme right have highjacked the National flags of England and the United Kingdom.


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## ppko (Oct 8, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> So based on the PPKO and RRouselot posts the message could be that it is between the two of them and leave it at that?


Agreed.


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## Flatlander (Oct 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> My only "agenda" is that certain *facts* based on my first hand knowledge be put forth about Dillman. I could careless if Dillman's books sell a million copies a day.


Interestingly, as I have previously noted here in this thread, sometimes things tend to get repeated.  The desire to put forth these facts has been previously satiated here, I believe, and I see no really good reason to reopen a previously degenerative topic.  :asian:


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## Sin (Oct 8, 2004)

I want people to know that i do not bad mouth there practices...i really don't.  i mean if your good enough at TKD then you could beat anyone if you wanted.  all i am worried about are the Mcdojo guys out there saying that there hardcore and they know everyting and there always right, even after they are show true proof of what has relly come to pass.  Now, i can understand PPKO's loyalty to his instructor's teachings, just as long as he can see mine and RRousolets (sp) views as well.  There is no bad blood betweem me and another Martial Artist, its all really a learning experince and all of our experinces are differant.  heck I stared learning MA in a cluttered garage in the middle of winter, and i am sure that not everyone has done that.  Many times it has been expressed by PPKO "Dillman never claimed all creidit for his art"  Well he didn't say he didn't take all the credit either..   

if anyone can get a personal comment from dillman or Oyota it would be the only thing that can put all of this to rest.  but I do admit this has been a really good debate and I would love to go on and on, but it seems like some people are repeating themselves and we need to move on, if anyone can get new info from oyota or dillman, please show them this thread, it would be a great thing for them to see.  to see that they both have such a high fan base that there are bigger discussions on them then in the Star trek boards thread opn who was a better captain picard or kirk.   

to some extent we are all being fanboys

Definition- Fanboy: someone who supports something they have or know, just because they own or know something.

example: if someone owns a xbox they are gonna say that they xbox is the bes next gen video game console ever and all others stink.  Well thats not the case, each game system where designed for peopple of differant tastes,
I.E.    Gamecube:kids (Animal Crossing)
           xbox: First person shooters (halo)
         PS2: Platformers (racthet and clank)

so in the long run we are all going to support and stand behind with what we have.  except for the few that but all the game systems or in other words, For people who train and reserch in multiple arts and not just there own.

i know I got off task a little there but I hope you all see my point.  in the long run we are all part of the martial arts family. Some are brothers some are cousins and some are Grandparents.  Stories (tech.) passed down from generation to generation, altered little by little with each generation.  Witch is why we need to be as true to the old ways as possible.  just rememmber your Dojo mottos/Kune. :asian:


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## chinto01 (Oct 8, 2004)

What are we arguing about??  We are discussing two people that unless you are a direct student of them or know them personally that could probably give 2 hoots about any of us. This bickering back and forth is what holds us back as martial artists. I believe the masters of old had it right when they referred their senior students to other teachers because they admitted they could no longer further their training at certain things. Until we can all play nice in the sandbox with eachother than the martial arts will always be in turmoil. Who cares about who teaches what to who or how it was taught or if someone stole this technique from someone else. Is not the goal of the martial arts to better the individual?? I know this sounds a little tacky and all but after being pretty involved in a situation like this between my dojo now and my old instructors dojo we are missing the idea of the martial arts. Development of mind, body, and spirit. Remember also there are 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs,and in the middle lies the truth.


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## loki09789 (Oct 8, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> to some extent we are all being fanboys
> 
> Definition- Fanboy: someone who supports something they have or know, just because they own or know something.
> 
> ...


Unlike a gameboy/xbox...what ever, Oyata and Dillman are real people who know each other and have found a way to resolve this situation (if it even is one for them) to their satisfaction.  It is their issue, not ours/yours/anyone elses.

This continuous hedging is getting like the mother from "Everybody loves Raymond" when she sticks her nose in things that involve her only by association but she has no real stake or decision making power in.

Bickering like this leads to factioning, bad blood and (more so in the old days) the 'school duel' which is the martial arts equivalent of gang warfare...

let them figure it out or ask them direct instead of creating contraversy here for no reason.


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## ppko (Oct 8, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Unlike a gameboy/xbox...what ever, Oyata and Dillman are real people who know each other and have found a way to resolve this situation (if it even is one for them) to their satisfaction. It is their issue, not ours/yours/anyone elses.
> 
> This continuous hedging is getting like the mother from "Everybody loves Raymond" when she sticks her nose in things that involve her only by association but she has no real stake or decision making power in.
> 
> ...


I can't agree more which is why for the most part I try not to down anyone or there teacher.  I have before but for the most part it is when I have taken the defensive.  If there is a problem it does not involve me nor anyone else on this forum it would be between them (I am sure that there is not a problem between Oyata and Dillman as Oyatas writing is on everyone of Dillmans blackbelt certificates)  now lets get back to discussing the Martial Arts


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## RRouuselot (Oct 9, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> ...... (I am sure that there is not a problem between Oyata and Dillman as Oyatas writing is on everyone of Dillmans blackbelt certificates) .......


 
 Just wondering.........have you seen any of Dillman's certificates that you mentioned, or was it second hand information?  If you have seen them how many are there?


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## ppko (Oct 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Just wondering.........have you seen any of Dillman's certificates that you mentioned, or was it second hand information? If you have seen them how many are there?


Yes I have seen them the writing is on all of certificates that he gives to people.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 9, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Yes I have seen them the writing is on all of certificates that he gives to people.




That's odd since he only got one rank certificate himself........so he is using my teachers certificates to give ranks in his organization???? That's odd.


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## ppko (Oct 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> That's odd since he only got one rank certificate himself........so he is using my teachers certificates to give ranks in his organization???? That's odd.


no he has his own certificates


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## RRouuselot (Oct 9, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> no he has his own certificates




I guess I am a bit confused.
How many Certiifactes does dillman have with my teachers writting on them?
He was given only one "honorary" rank certificate.  

What writting is on all the certificates he gives people?


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## ppko (Oct 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I guess I am a bit confused.
> How many Certiifactes does dillman have with my teachers writting on them?
> He was given only one "honorary" rank certificate.
> 
> What writting is on all the certificates he gives people?


I dont know what the writing says but I was told that it was Oyatas, by my teacher.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 9, 2004)

Just chiming in here....

Dillman has a cert with Oyatas writing on it.
That cert is an Honorary one.

Dillman is issuing his own certs, that he claims also have Oyatas writing on them.

Am I right so far?

Is the writing on those certs that is claimed to be Oyatas in a decorative manner, or an authorizing/validating manner?
Does he have permission to do this?


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## MJS (Oct 9, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> i mean if your good enough at TKD then you could beat anyone if you wanted.



Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting thread.  Off the subject for a brief moment, but i was just curious about the above comment.  Are you referring to a person with or without any MA training??

Mike


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## RRouuselot (Oct 9, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> I dont know what the writing says but I was told that it was Oyatas, by my teacher.



The writing on what? Is Mr. Oyata's writing on certificates Dillman gives out?


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 9, 2004)

```
Is the writing on those certs that is claimed to be Oyatas in a decorative manner, or an authorizing/validating manner?
Does he have permission to do this?
```
 
those are two good questions.  Can we have an answere please. Dose aneone here have a cert. with this signature on it ? If so please scan it so we can see it


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## ppko (Oct 9, 2004)

I am not a direct student of GM Dillmans so I do not have all the answers all that I know is that I was told the the certificates have Oyatas writing on them this is all I know right now is what I have been told I may very well be wrong


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## RRouuselot (Oct 10, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> I am not a direct student of GM Dillmans so I do not have all the answers all that I know is that I was told the the certificates have Oyatas writing on them this is all I know right now is what I have been told I may very well be wrong



I wouldn't doubt Dillman is using certificates with Mr. Oyata's writing on them.  It seems like something he would do. 

What I find odd PPKO is before you said: "no he has his own certificates". 
So Dillman basically cut and pasted Mr. Oyata's writing on to one of "his own certificates" and now issues them as a "Dillman Certificate"......
The more I learn about Dillman over the last 20 plus years the more I find out the man has no shame.  

PPKO, 

You have rank under Dillman, do you not?
If you do then you must have one of these certificates.
Would you mind posting it so it can be seen....if not then sending it to me via email. I for one would like to see just who's writing is on one of his certificates.


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## ppko (Oct 10, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I wouldn't doubt Dillman is using certificates with Mr. Oyata's writing on them. It seems like something he would do.
> 
> What I find odd PPKO is before you said: "no he has his own certificates".
> So Dillman basically cut and pasted Mr. Oyata's writing on to one of "his own certificates" and now issues them as a "Dillman Certificate"......
> ...


Why would I do that when you have shown nothing but disrespect towards GM Dillman and a lot to me personally.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 10, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Why would I do that when you have shown nothing but disrespect towards GM Dillman and a lot to me personally.




Forget I asked........I figured you would respond in this way.
However,  if Dillman is using Mr. Oyata's writing on his certificates then it just to attests to his lack of character and reinforces what I and others have written about him. So if you post a certificate from him showing that Mr. Oyata's writing is indeed on them then how could you possibly justify/defend Dillman's character in the future..........you couldn't.


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## Sin (Oct 11, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting thread.  Off the subject for a brief moment, but i was just curious about the above comment.  Are you referring to a person with or without any MA training??
> 
> Mike




What i was refering to was that some people get on this trip that there MA is the ultimate style.  That is definatly not the case.  i was just saying that if you train well enough in a system then you can be better than anyone, if you work at it.   (all systems have there strenghs and weaknesses)

Anyways, i am glad i made this post because it is something we could all use some true information on, KEY WORD: TRUE,  first hand accounts with dillman and Oyata is the TRUE information.  The only bad blood I can see going on is about Dillman's Charecter or lack of.  PPKO if you would please post your certificate so we cn put this matter to rest....if it is dillman's own personal Certificates with nothing to do with Oyota then we will know.  RRousolett, I commend you on your post and on your knowledge of this subject. :asian:


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## Ippon Ken (Oct 11, 2004)

Well let me give you guys some facts from the Hohan Soken and Fusei Kise side (Matsumura Seito Shorin). My sensei was a  senior student of both Soken and Kise during the 60s, 70s and 80s (as well as Kinjo Seizan and Yuichi Kuda- a senior student of Shigeru Nakamura- Oyata's sensei). I know for sure that Dillman never studied for any length of time with either Hohan Soken or Fusei Kise. He met Soken through Kise, and talked to him in his hotel room for about 30 minutes, maybe an hour. From this he claims to somehow have gleaned the secrets of Okinawan Karate, especially as it relates to tuite and dian xue (PP stuff). That is a blatant untruth. Dillman was and is an accomplished modern style karate-ka. He trained with Bruce Lee and Muhammad Ali. Why he decided to travel this weird PP route eludes me. 

Maybe he got tired of being overlooked and he needed something to make him stand out. The same can be said for that Juko Kai Sacharnoski guy. He was a decent karate-ka/jujutsu-ka, why start with all this fake "iron body, groin kicking, I have a 9th or 10th dan in 10 systems and learned for years from all the Okinawan GMs" crap? PP and meridian stuff takes years to master. A lot of it makes common medical sense, some of it is hard to explain using conventional science and allopathic medicine. None of it can be learned without being taught the fundamentals and proper kata.

Anyway, if you want to know about Dillman and how long he really trained with Oyata, Kise or Soken go to www.smoka-usa.com (if it's still up). Remember that money makes good folks do weird things. It's a crying shame. Now I weep!


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## terryl965 (Oct 11, 2004)

I for one do not understand why it is important to anybody whether Dillman study or not, does this effect your MA training, We all know that many people strech the truth about there claims and find people to buy into anything. whether or not he did or not does not enhance my training so why do you brother to keep going back in forth every person has there side of any story and for what ever reason he has is his business, I'm not pro or against him do not know him or anybody else just a outside opion. And you know nobody is going to put there certificate so someone can cucfy them about it... GOD BLESS AMERICA


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## RRouuselot (Oct 11, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> *1)I for one do not understand why it is important to anybody whether Dillman study or not, * *2)does this effect your MA training*, We all know that many people strech the truth about there claims and find people to buy into anything. whether or not he did or not does not enhance my training so why do you brother to keep going back in forth every person has there side of any story and for what ever reason he has is *3)his business,* I'm not pro or against him do not know him or anybody else just a outside opion. *4)And you know nobody is going to put there certificate so someone can cucfy them about it... *GOD BLESS AMERICA




1)Uhhhh it's called integrity/ honesty for one thing, something the MA are supposed to instill in people. For another if I claim to have studied at the Shao Lin Temple but actually only went there for *a* visit as a tourist with my video camera and then came back to he US and started teaching Shao Lin .........do you see where I am going here????
2) Most definitely it does. 
3)......and there is the main point.......his business. If Dillman spent half as much time studying/training as he does marketing he might be a decent martial artist.
4)ARK did, so did his student...forgot his name (DAC?) , Sachornoski did, some other guy (Hobbs?) that claimed to be a SOKE did as well on MT.....I saw all  of these certiifcates....none of them were real.


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## Ippon Ken (Oct 12, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I for one do not understand why it is important to anybody whether Dillman study or not, does this effect your MA training, We all know that many people strech the truth about there claims and find people to buy into anything. whether or not he did or not does not enhance my training so why do you brother to keep going back in forth every person has there side of any story and for what ever reason he has is his business, I'm not pro or against him do not know him or anybody else just a outside opion. And you know nobody is going to put there certificate so someone can cucfy them about it... GOD BLESS AMERICA


Well to tell you the TRUTH, which is very important if you are considering whether or not someone is credible, those PP notes George supposedly got from Soken came from my sensei Ron Lindsey. Dillman came to learn about tuite and dian xue, for a couple of 2 hour sessions. Knowing he was a lifelong karate-ka my sensei gave hime Fusei Kise's PP notes, which every legit Matsumura Seito stylist has recieived since the late 60s. 

Dillman took these quick introductory lessons, and the notes and then went off to establish a very lucrative career based on a superficial understanding of "kyusho" (a JJJ term most Okinawans don't use- btw). There are sensei who have been doing this stuff everyday of their lives for 30+ years. Why should a one-time student who has never recieved BB ranking in a legit Okinawa ryuha be allowed to do this without getting "checked"? He met Oyata one time at one seminar, found out that for all his decades of training in "karate" he didn't know squat except for punchy-kicky schoolkid karate, and decided he would change his training and MAs ideology. The only thing is he didn't learn the ideology or put in the years of training time required. 

He does things like steal your chi when you exhale (by breathing it in, hahahaha), that crap is beyond ludicrous- it's friggin hilarious! He impatiently walks around in a dark room with a blindfold on, makes up some "striking a point multiple times" or "points in sequence crap" and dorks buy into it. Instead he should have cleaned his plate and taken the role of diligent student again. That way we wouldn't even need this discussion!

Look go learn some real science or at least legit Chinese medicine. Go train in a real Okinawan karate ryu. That way you can spot a scheister 20 miles away. Quit following and lead your damn self. Forget the quick-fixes, and do what all smart folks do (who have integrity) and take the right route. There are no shortcuts to learning good MAs. It takes years to master, as do most things! Even good combat sports (MMAs) take years to be truly proficient and reflexive at.

The real sensei don't want the masses to know the "secrets", if you can call logical fighting that, so you have to search and search. It may take months or years, or you may never find a good sensei. Most things in a society frought with superficiality will only be topical. Depth is about knowing for yourself through years of research and proper giudance. Dillman does not have this, or if he does it is a false abyss of dollar signs and true karate-ka sighs. 

One day there will be some legitimate karate sensei who will redeem the name of karate (HIGHLY UNLIKELY). Right now McDojos, snake-oil salesmen and circus freaks dot the landscape. Ah the 'Murkun way!!! God bless humanity... 

Check yo' self, fools!


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

IPPON KEN,
Jeez........I think you and I actually agree on something for a change!


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## Sin (Oct 12, 2004)

::claps::

I agree that the McDojos reign supream right now that is why i don't go to a main stream school.  I train with a couple of guys in a garage for $50 a month and we are always looking for new members but where not going to use gimmicks to do it either.

Ron Livingston my sensei trained with Oyota personally and I am learning what Everything that Livingston knows.  In turn getting the same training he got from Oyota, well at least I hope I am.  One day i want to train with Oyota but I am afraid that he dosn't have much time left on this eath and he only trains with black belts.  but i will try anyways.

 Really I think that this disscussion is coming from The whole Mcdojo supremacy right now and Dillman is just a key example of the McDojo.  A wattered down version of the true Martial Art. :asian:


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> ::claps::
> 
> I agree that the McDojos reign supream right now that is why i don't go to a main stream school. I train with a couple of guys in a garage for $50 a month and we are always looking for new members but where not going to use gimmicks to do it either.
> 
> ...


If you have the chance, work with Dillman once and you may take a different stand on the 'watered down' comment.  He may have more commercial exposure because he is earning a living doing this, that does not automatically equate to 'watered down' so much as 'tailored to the target market'.... I am MORE than positive that you are not being taught the way a Japanese student would be taught exactly the same way.  Is that watering it down, or adjusting the instruction to fit your approach and student base?

Again, legitimacy, insult, homage....those are things that Dillman and Oyata have reconciled to some degree or there would be fights between them and possibly legal cases pending of somekind if it was that big a concern.  Worry about your training more and the politics less and you will go farther.  A McDojo can be a place the spends too much time worrying about reputation and impression regardless of the geography.


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## Sin (Oct 12, 2004)

dillman is watered down cause you may learn the moves but you don't learn the Okanowan brake downs of the katas nor do you get the history or the good moral values.  dillman reminds me of the bad Sensei in karate Kid


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

loki09789[I said:
			
		

> ]If you have the chance, work with Dillman once and you may take a different stand on the 'watered down' comment.[/I]


*


Hahahahahaha :uhyeah: ..........I have seen "Georgie" in action......I'd say he does a "watered down" version.*


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Again, legitimacy, insult, homage....those are things that Dillman and Oyata have reconciled to some degree or there would be fights between them and possibly legal cases pending of somekind if it was that big a concern.




Actually Mr. Oyata is not the type of person that sues someone.......I will say "Georgie" had several invites to do seminars and was all hot-to-trot but then found out they were in the KC area and found every excuse in the book to not go.


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Hahahahahaha :uhyeah: ..........I have seen "Georgie" in action......I'd say he does a "watered down" version.


So much for leaving in the hands of the parties involved and being open to equal observation time.

So, here's the question for you:  What about teh TUITE/PRessure point stuff.  Is every person he demonstrates on 'giving it to him?'  Guys, it is a niche market application.  Is he advertising the 'whole art' or concentrating on the pressure point stuff?  If memory serves me correctly, he is focusing on the Pressure point stuff.

For my last post, it is their beef, why not leave it to them.  What adoration/reward can possibly be gained by bashing Dillman in your personal studies?


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## Sin (Oct 12, 2004)

Dillman is like that witch lady in Croching tiger hidden dragon that stole the scrolls and came up with a crappy version of Cho young fats charecter's style.  It works, but is definitly got a few things wrong


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> For my last post, it is their beef, why not leave it to them.  What adoration/reward can possibly be gained by bashing Dillman in your personal studies?




Bashing??? I am merely relaying facts that have unfolded before me over the last 20 some years of having to deal with him and his ilk.


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## Tgace (Oct 12, 2004)

Well at least this #$%& is martial arts wide and not just in the arts Ive associated with...no "live and let live in the MA" it appears.


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## Sin (Oct 12, 2004)

Not bashing his studies just bashing his morals and values.  the man said that he came up with all the presure point and TWITE stuff, witch is totally wrong.  

Dojo Motto
1.) to strive for good moral charecter
2.) to keep an honest and sinsere way
3.) to cultivate perserverence or a will for striveing
4.) to develop a respectful attitude
5.) to restrain your physical ability through siritual attainment

Dillman broke, 1, 2, & 4 that i know of and in my book that makes him a bad guy with no respect.


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> Dillman is like that witch lady in Croching tiger hidden dragon that stole the scrolls and came up with a crappy version of Cho young fats charecter's style. It works, but is definitly got a few things wrong


So your saying he is an illiterate bandit that teachers students immoral behavior?  

That isn't character bashing or commercial interference/libelous?  At least RR has substantiation to work from in forming his opinion.  This is trash talk through and through.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

I heard a good saying once that applies to BS martial artists:
*
"Back in my day we would deal with that kind of person in a way the law no longer allows"*


Sin, 

I have to agree with loki09789 to an extent.
Unless you have had personal contact/dealings with Dillman that can be proven as fact you may want to take it easy on what you say about him.


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Bashing??? I am merely relaying facts that have unfolded before me over the last 20 some years of having to deal with him and his ilk.


RR,
I respec the fact that you are drawing from direct observation and direct contact with Oyata and Dillman both, but in the end your alignment to Oyata is going to color what you see in Dillman.  Right or wrong, like voting, you are going to 'like' one over the 'other' and nothing that comes will change that.

What purpose does posting anything about Dillman do, especially when you paraphrased him as saying "any press is good press" so your helping him in the long run, even though you don't like/respect him.


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## Sin (Oct 12, 2004)

well from the gathering of information i have accumulated about this matter i am putting the way i see Dillman in my mind on the message board.  that said it is not up to me to try and change my view on him.  it is him that must change and I can garentee if Dillman swallowed his pride and say he stole hes stuff from Oyota then there can be reconcilliation, but until then.  he is mirely a poser with a watered down out look.

and by the way my Sensei trained with Oyota so everything I know is coming from him and RR, so i am merely supporting first hand experinces


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> What purpose does posting anything about Dillman do, especially when you paraphrased him as saying "any press is good press" so your helping him in the long run, even though you don't like/respect him.



That's merely what he thought.....it may or may not be true.
However, I think people that are considering training with him should know something about him before they decide.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> well from the gathering of information i have accumulated about this matter i am putting the way i see Dillman in my mind on the message board.  that said it is not up to me to try and change my view on him.  _it is him that must change_* and I can garentee if Dillman swallowed his pride and say he stole hes stuff from Oyota then there can be reconcilliation*, but until then.  he is mirely a poser with a watered down out look.




Dillman change his mind and become a "humble student" at this stage of the game.......not likely.

BTW, Dillman didn't really "steal" anything other than "borrowing" a few basic techniques, the name of a style plus some Japanese vocab........not much considering his claim to fame before that was holding the record for breaking blocks of ice. 

Sin, 

As for training the way Mr. Oyata did........you wouldn't last. 
Most people wouldn't last. 
Most western people DIDN'T last the way he used to train them in Okinawa.


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## Sin (Oct 12, 2004)

honestly though if dillman and Oyota got into a fight Oyota would own him.
Reasons.
1.) more experince
2.) True to the art
3.) Not in it for the $ but for the sake of his own reputation


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## RRouuselot (Oct 12, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> honestly though if dillman and Oyota got into a fight Oyota would own him.
> Reasons.
> 1.) more experince
> 2.) True to the art
> 3.) Not in it for the $ but for the sake of his own reputation




Have you ever met either of them?
(also his name is Oy*a*ta....not Oy*o*ta....at least respect him enough to spell his name correctly)

Not to be rude but that is an imature speculation, and will most likely never happen.

That reminds me of those things kids used to say like "Batman can beat Spiderman"

You said you wanted to train with Mr. Oyata someday......well if you keep writing imature candyass crap like this it will be over my dead body that you step foot in his dojo.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 12, 2004)

Gentlemen, 
 Before this gets out of hand, please step back and relax a bit.


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## Michael Billings (Oct 12, 2004)

Ditto.

 -Michael Billings
 MT S-Moderator


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## bignick (Oct 12, 2004)

i have a friend that studies RyuTe® Renmei from what I hear Mr. Oyata has a pretty good sense of humor...and like most people that you meet that have been studying the martial arts for a long period of time...they are incredibly intense...but at times, you could swear they were trying to be funny...

on the subject of Dillman, he claims to have trained under Oyata, it says so on his website...now, RRouuselot says he never did, other than a few seminars...and he was there at the time so i'm somewhat inclined to believe him...

people like Darrell Craig and Steve Cunningham have come to my area and given seminars...but have i trained under them?  if i go to their seminars does that make me their student?...of course not...seminars are great workouts and you usually pick up one or two great ideas...but the rest usually slips away...too much in too little time...

there is absoluetely nothing wrong with Dillman creating his own system and spreading it to the world...the problem comes if he misleads you where he got the information and so on...

Basically, my feelings on the matter...in general...and not just in the case of Dillman...

Do what you want, but call it what it is..


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## dearnis.com (Oct 12, 2004)

RR-
To answer some of your questions (from several pages ago...) the certs issued through DKI are not, that I ever heard, proported to be in Mr. Oyata's writing.  They are stamped with a series of kanji taken from one of the organization's patches which, I am told, is based on calligraphy done by Mr. Oyata.
I have viewed one certificate issued by Mr. Oyata to Mr. Dillman; and honestly much of what is written on it is greek to me  (note much needed injection of humor into thread....)
Hopefully this clarifies the issue of certificates.
Peace.
Chad


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## ppko (Oct 12, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> RR-
> To answer some of your questions (from several pages ago...) the certs issued through DKI are not, that I ever heard, proported to be in Mr. Oyata's writing. They are stamped with a series of kanji taken from one of the organization's patches which, I am told, is based on calligraphy done by Mr. Oyata.
> I have viewed one certificate issued by Mr. Oyata to Mr. Dillman; and honestly much of what is written on it is greek to me (note much needed injection of humor into thread....)
> Hopefully this clarifies the issue of certificates.
> ...


Thank you for clearing that up


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## Ippon Ken (Oct 14, 2004)

Actually Rob we probably agree on a lot more than you can even imagine. I just think you're ready to discount someone who posts on the web unless they use their real name (why should I let you suckers know who I am, who the **** are you guys?) or prove their lineage (which I have done). I've been doing real Okinawan karate for over 2 decades, and 9 out of 10 MAs schools in the states suck, karate and otherwise. That's based on empiricism from someone who knows. That's the facts jack!


Additionally, beyond what Sensei Rousellot has said, I gave you swift types a lot of real info. Like the PP notes crap and what really happened between Soken, Kise and Dillman. At least that's what I've been told by fellas who personally know all parties concerned. If you can't put 1 and 1 together I won't be surprised. Once you've been blinded by illusion, you can only see the warlock. That kind of thinking is rampant in the United States of Abracadabra.  

All you wishers go do some real training and quit trying to learn MAs on the net. I'm Swayze... <POOF!!!>


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## Sin (Oct 14, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Dillman change his mind and become a "humble student" at this stage of the game.......not likely.
> 
> BTW, Dillman didn't really "steal" anything other than "borrowing" a few basic techniques, the name of a style plus some Japanese vocab........not much considering his claim to fame before that was holding the record for breaking blocks of ice.
> 
> ...




Saying that i wouldn't last with him is disrespect to me. truthfully you don't know me or my skills or my level of determination.  Another thing i apoligize about misspelling his name,  spelling really isn't my strong suite.  Lastly, i prolly wouldn't wanna train with him all the time considering the distance from his Dojo to my home, but I would like to visit his school and see what its like, and I think i would like it.  My classes now are pretty hardcore,  Oyata's would be the pinnicle of my experinces, it would be a honor to work with him. 

Sorry if it seemed immature...it was only my anger for what Dillman has done to the art and the fact that he has given MA a really bad name.  At least in my eyes and the people I train with feel that way


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## KenpoTess (Oct 14, 2004)

* Mod Note

This Thread is being locked pending Admin Review.

It's gone overboard and nothing but personal attacks are being posted.  

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


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