# Atemi: To give and to get



## ejaazi (Feb 23, 2008)

I wanted to start a discussion about Atemi. Many people do not use atemi when doing technique. I find this to be very strange. On the other hand, there are many people (uke) who do not respond to atemi, which I also find rather strange. When working with junior students, I also try to tell them to throw the atemi as if they mean it, but to also respond to an atemi being thrown at them. It is a shame that this aspect of the art is quickly fading away.


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## kaizasosei (Feb 23, 2008)

under certain circumstances, techniques are useless without atemi.  atemi is something like the core of all techniques.  to leave out atemi is tantamount to ignoring the truth.  because in real situations, the opponent or attacker is responding to every movement that seems relevant.  and in certain situations atemi is a natural way of gaining superiority and establishing distance as well as a connection with the attacker that goes beyond mere striking.  but if one does not strike an attacker in certain situations, he will continue to attack until successful.  posture of attacker is also sometimes most easily broken with a strike or a threat.

j


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## theletch1 (Feb 23, 2008)

I think a large part of the passing of atemi is the reputation (and misunderstanding) that aikido is a "soft" art.  Too many folks get tangled up in the late '60s hippie version of aikido as "peace and love and pixie dust" and forget that it can be a very lethal art.  They'll watch nothing but youtube videos of guys flying through the air without ever being touched and read literature that talks about nage's responsibility to never hurt an attacker and think "Wow, that's an art I could do and not feel bad about myself 'cause I just couldn't bring myself to hit someone."  They go to a dojo and over time instructors begin to realize that keeping students means teaching what they want to learn.  The art devolves from an effective defense to really nothing more than a dance.  Aikido is not some new age, sit around singing kuumbaya and feel good about the world thing.  It's a martial art with very serious potential for permanent damage or even death to an attacker.

We've had students that simply would not bring themselves to strike or would slop something out and expect uke to react as if he'd been hit by Hollyfield.  It is our responsibility as aikido-ka to correct this.  Even if you aren't an instructor you should throw your atemi in a dynamicaly correct fashion to get uke to react.  Don't give your nage a pass when they slop a strike out there...you're not doing them any favors.  Talk to your instructors if you see this as a problem in your dojo.  My style traces itself back to one generation away from DRAJJ and striking is always welcome.  Kicks, punches, gouges and all sorts of other nasty little tricks will come in handy in a self defense situation.  If you're teaching a style of aikido that bills itself as a means of self defense then you owe it to yourself and anyone you may be called upon to protect to become proficient enough to strike while flowing through an aikido technique.

Sorry for the rant, guys and gals.  This is a topic that puts me over the edge...especially when I'm just on my first cup of coffee for the morning.


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## morph4me (Feb 23, 2008)

I agree with theletch ( not suprising, since we both train in the same style), atemi is intrinsic to the art. I think it's an insult to the person I'm working with if I react to a strike or fall for a throw that just isn't correct and won't be effective, it's like saying " I don't think you could do it on your own, so I'll help".

Atemi should be practiced with contact hard enough to get a reaction, if you're not getting the reaction, increase the contact in increments until you do.


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## ejaazi (Feb 23, 2008)

I believe in taking care of the uke. So I throw the atemi as though I mean it and I expect them to respond. There are some instructors who throw atemi at senior students and if you don't block it or respond properly, then you will get hit. It's usually not that hard, but hard enough to remind you that atemi is serious business. I always try to look for the opening and throw the atemi. As far as speaking to the Instructor, he has already talked about it to everyone. I guess you can't make people do something that they really don't want to do. Aikido is a serious art, but not everyone taking it is serious about Aikido.


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## theletch1 (Feb 23, 2008)

I like the way you look at taking care of uke.  Training in a completely non-resistive or unrealistic manner is certainly not taking care of uke.  It's giving them a false sense of security.  Being able to take a hit is as important (psychologically) as being able to throw atemi, IMO.  Too many people train softly, expecting to never get tagged and when they do get punched in the face or take a good body shot for whatever reason they freeze.  It's important to get hit in the dojo as uke.  You can learn as much on the receiving end of a technique as you can as nage.  Look back over your attacks and the defenses used against you and really think about how getting punched here or there made you react.  Most folks will react in a relatively same manner.  You can take that info and use it if you simply train in the manner that the art allows.


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## ejaazi (Feb 23, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I like the way you look at taking care of uke. Training in a completely non-resistive or unrealistic manner is certainly not taking care of uke. It's giving them a false sense of security. Being able to take a hit is as important (psychologically) as being able to throw atemi, IMO. Too many people train softly, expecting to never get tagged and when they do get punched in the face or take a good body shot for whatever reason they freeze. It's important to get hit in the dojo as uke. You can learn as much on the receiving end of a technique as you can as nage. Look back over your attacks and the defenses used against you and really think about how getting punched here or there made you react. Most folks will react in a relatively same manner. You can take that info and use it if you simply train in the manner that the art allows.


 
This is the reason I like training in the Chiba Sensei system. As a matter of fact, I've seen people who were uke for Chiba Sensei who took some really serious atemi's from him. And yes, he does expect you to respond. From my years of doing Aikido, both Chiba and Saito Sensei's expressed great importance in the use of atemi. Soft training is very unrealistic and will hurt you and your aikido in the long run.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 24, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I think a large part of the passing of atemi is the reputation (and misunderstanding) that aikido is a "soft" art. Too many folks get tangled up in the late '60s hippie version of aikido as "peace and love and pixie dust" and forget that it can be a very lethal art. They'll watch nothing but youtube videos of guys flying through the air without ever being touched and read literature that talks about nage's responsibility to never hurt an attacker and think "Wow, that's an art I could do and not feel bad about myself 'cause I just couldn't bring myself to hit someone." They go to a dojo and over time instructors begin to realize that keeping students means teaching what they want to learn. The art devolves from an effective defense to really nothing more than a dance. Aikido is not some new age, sit around singing kuumbaya and feel good about the world thing. It's a martial art with very serious potential for permanent damage or even death to an attacker.
> 
> We've had students that simply would not bring themselves to strike or would slop something out and expect uke to react as if he'd been hit by Hollyfield. It is our responsibility as aikido-ka to correct this. Even if you aren't an instructor you should throw your atemi in a dynamicaly correct fashion to get uke to react. Don't give your nage a pass when they slop a strike out there...you're not doing them any favors. Talk to your instructors if you see this as a problem in your dojo. My style traces itself back to one generation away from DRAJJ and striking is always welcome. Kicks, punches, gouges and all sorts of other nasty little tricks will come in handy in a self defense situation. If you're teaching a style of aikido that bills itself as a means of self defense then you owe it to yourself and anyone you may be called upon to protect to become proficient enough to strike while flowing through an aikido technique.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, guys and gals. This is a topic that puts me over the edge...especially when I'm just on my first cup of coffee for the morning.


 
Great post Jeff.  Aikido has excellent footwork and circular movement when combined with the Aikido Joint manipulations, takedowns and throws is is a formidable art. However, in my opinon Aikido *really rocks* when atemi are used proficiently in combination with the rest.  Then you see how truly devastating Aikido can be!


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## Yari (Feb 25, 2008)

ejaazi said:


> I wanted to start a discussion about Atemi.


 
Cool, atemi is a natural part of any technique. But, but, but.... Excessive and misunderstood atemi shouldn't be used.

Atemi should be a natural part of the flow and rythem, and should empehise the choices and possiblities it meets and gives.

In my world atemi has 2 areas of usage:

    1) Stop the situation totaly
    2) To give the possiblity to choose/take  the next movement

Alot of pople work with atemi as in "if I hit here Uke will do this or that". I don't believe that. When you do an atemi, it's because you have to introduce an uncertainty in the movement /technique,because your in a situatione were the oppesite is more dangerous. In other words the atemi is to take control of the situation again, by trying to define the next out put.

/yari


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## charyuop (Feb 26, 2008)

There are some techniques where I cannot help using Atemi, the lack of Atemi will prevent Uke from doing a movement that the technique itself needs in order to be done.
For other things I started with Atemi and slowly Sensei took them away because it was messing me up with timing and correct form. I assume when he sees me doing them in acceptable way he will reintroduce the Atemi again.
But yes when we do use Atemi Uke better stop them coz we intend them fully.


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## theletch1 (Feb 26, 2008)

charyuop said:


> There are some techniques where I cannot help using Atemi, the lack of Atemi will prevent Uke from doing a movement that the technique itself needs in order to be done.
> For other things I started with Atemi and slowly Sensei took them away because it was messing me up with timing and correct form. I assume when he sees me doing them in acceptable way he will reintroduce the Atemi again.
> But yes when we do use Atemi *Uke better stop them coz we intend them fully*.


That is exactly as it should be.  Slop in the dojo leads to slop in the real world.

Being able to throw atemi and still flow through an aikido technique is a trick that I'm still working on.  Some atemi/technique combos flow better for me than others.  I can only hope that when I have 20 or 30 years in it will all flow smoothly.:wink2:


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## Yari (Feb 27, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> ..... I can only hope that when I have 20 or 30 years in it will all flow smoothly.:wink2:


 
Oh my... do I have to wait until I'm 70-80? ;-)


/Yari


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## charyuop (Feb 27, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Being able to throw atemi and still flow through an aikido technique is a trick that I'm still working on. Some atemi/technique combos flow better for me than others. I can only hope that when I have 20 or 30 years in it will all flow smoothly.:wink2:


 
That makes me feel good hee hee, thought it was only me. I remember last time Sensei told me forget the Atemi as if it was today. It was on a Tsuki Sankyo. Received the punch with my arm under uke's arm, flow with him, redirect and as we turn to face one another I do Atemi...lost all the timing for Sankyo sigh.
As O Sensei said Atemi is 70% of Aikido and it should create openings...to me it closes them hee hee. Well I guess that should teach me to improvize a technique instead of doing the technique planned in the class. I will see when I will start doing some freestyle.


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## theletch1 (Feb 27, 2008)

Yari said:


> Oh my... do I have to wait until I'm 70-80? ;-)
> 
> 
> /Yari


Hell, I thought you already were!:wink1:


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## Yari (Feb 28, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Hell, I thought you already were!:wink1:


 
70- 80........ thanks ;-) Some mornings I look in the mirror and..... ha-ha-

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Feb 28, 2008)

Yari said:


> 70- 80........ thanks ;-) Some mornings I look in the mirror and..... ha-ha-
> 
> /Yari


I know what you mean.  I'll be 38 in June and some mornings, after a particularly atemi heavy class I feel about 80 myself.  Thus far in this thread we've dealt with giving atemi and not so much receiving atemi.  I love the feel of a well placed strike hitting me.  The soreness after that is a kind of sick pleasure for me.  It lets me know I've been training hard.  It may be my Marine Corps training or my kempo training showing through here but I feel it's important to get hit in training so that you don't just stop in shock on the street if someone gets a punch in.  Thoughts?


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## morph4me (Feb 28, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I know what you mean. I'll be 38 in June and some mornings, after a particularly atemi heavy class I feel about 80 myself. Thus far in this thread we've dealt with giving atemi and not so much receiving atemi. I love the feel of a well placed strike hitting me. The soreness after that is a kind of sick pleasure for me. It lets me know I've been training hard. It may be my Marine Corps training or my kempo training showing through here but I feel it's important to get hit in training so that you don't just stop in shock on the street if someone gets a punch in. Thoughts?


 
38? Damn kids . You may be right Jeff, it just might be a Marine Corps thing. I enjoy the feeling of well placed, well timed strike, both giving and receiving. I think it's important to be hit, it reminds you what you're training for.


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## Yari (Feb 29, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I know what you mean. I'll be 38 in June


 
Little boy.... Im turning 44... 




> ....... but I feel it's important to get hit in training so that you don't just stop in shock on the street if someone gets a punch in. Thoughts?


 
I agree..... both ways. I like the feel of yesterdays practice. If gives me a lot: I gave it all I could, doing it seriously and so on.  And I also agree on "getting use" to being hit, so you know what a shock is and how you could react.

/Yari


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## kaizasosei (Feb 29, 2008)

atemi need not be a strike.  i think that atemi has more to do with touching and contact than with powerful striking techniques.  all martial arts require knowledge of aiki that is the harmonizing of ones energy with that of the partner or enemy. even animals need these skills to certain degrees in order to survive.
the goal of atemi is not to strike the body, but to control the mind and direction of the partners energy.  flowing into all sorts of clever and strategic martial arts techniques, the base of aiki is the same as that of all communication for example verbal and bodylanguage.  



j


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## charyuop (Feb 29, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> atemi need not be a strike. i think that atemi has more to do with touching and contact than with powerful striking techniques. all martial arts require knowledge of aiki that is the harmonizing of ones energy with that of the partner or enemy. even animals need these skills to certain degrees in order to survive.
> the goal of atemi is not to strike the body, but to control the mind and direction of the partners energy. flowing into all sorts of clever and strategic martial arts techniques, the base of aiki is the same as that of all communication for example verbal and bodylanguage.
> j


 
Sorry, but I don't completely agree with you. If you ever happen to have to face a real aggression (hope not, just like for everyone else in here) I doubt the aggressor will be distracted, if even notice it, a little tap on the cheek or on the nose. If the attacker is well full of adrenaline, not even a full blow on the nose might be able to stop him...maybe slow him down or give him 2 seconds of indecision, which is what the atemi is for.
Remember on the mat you learn the principles, don't give for granted all you see on the mat. Not everybody is like me (LOL) that get a punch on the nose and run away crying, most of the people with a full charge of adrenaline as soon as feel the blow in the face swing by instinct with the other hand or foot.

That is why I find atemi so difficult. The atemi must be given without actually paying too much attention to it and even tho must be well placed and not weak, must last the blink of an eye so that it won't interfere with the flowing of the technique. Well, at least this is my point of view.


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## tempus (Feb 29, 2008)

Just some random thoughts now that the I am almost 100% from the evil flu.  Have not trained in about 5 weeks now.  Its funny that my joints feel kind of good.

Light strikes can do some damage if well placed.  I swung a hihg chop at someone and went low to the floating rib.  His cross block was off on the blend and my chop went right thru and hit as he stepped into it.  I was not swinging hard, but I hit the floating rib area.  He was out a week after that with a bruise.

While I was out on the couch last week I was flipping and was watching video of COP's or something.  The guy attacked and the officer\security guard threw a kick right into the attackers groin.  The guy did not flinch and kept coming.  On the video you hear the cop say "oh, oh".

I am trying to practice getting strikes in during my blend.  I watch some higher ups do it and they flow very nicely.  The best I have seen is a Sensei who is a small women.  She strikes in just about technique she does.  They are well placed and they hurt.  She says she needs to take the big guys down a notch.


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## theletch1 (Mar 1, 2008)

tempus said:


> Just some random thoughts now that the I am almost 100% from the evil flu. Have not trained in about 5 weeks now. Its funny that my joints feel kind of good.
> 
> Light strikes can do some damage if well placed. I swung a hihg chop at someone and went low to the floating rib. His cross block was off on the blend and my chop went right thru and hit as he stepped into it. I was not swinging hard, but I hit the floating rib area. He was out a week after that with a bruise.
> 
> ...


Two things about the bolded type...placement is everything in atemi.  Since we aren't throwing planted punches that deliver the total blunt force trauma of the hard stylist our strikes MUST be on target to be effective.
The second thing about the bold is that she doesn't NEED to bring the big guys down for the technique to work.  Most of the women I've seen in aikido move more fluidly than most men so the atemi isn't really needed for the technique.  Now, does she NEED to deliver the atemi as part of the technique because that is what HER aikido has evolved into?  Probably and that's fine.  I find myself throwing certain strikes more often than others simply because that's just what comes into my technique as I flow.  I'm not sure what it is but sometimes, even when it really isn't needed, I'll allow my elbow to tag a floating rib on the way through a blend or something like that.  The atemi becomes almost co-incidental to the blend.  

This thread has really motivated me about our art, guys.  It's nice to be reminded by others just how "rough" aikido can be.


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## charyuop (Mar 2, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I find myself throwing certain strikes more often than others simply because that's just what comes into my technique as I flow. I'm not sure what it is but sometimes, even when it really isn't needed, I'll allow my elbow to tag a floating rib on the way through a blend or something like that. The atemi becomes almost co-incidental to the blend.
> 
> This thread has really motivated me about our art, guys. It's nice to be reminded by others just how "rough" aikido can be.


 
Seems almost that your Atemi fits the technique and not the opposite and I thought the Atemi is used to create opening for a following technique.


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## morph4me (Mar 2, 2008)

charyuop said:


> Seems almost that your Atemi fits the technique and not the opposite and I thought the Atemi is used to create opening for a following technique.


 
Actually it's a little of both, if your atemi becomes part of your tai sabaki, it creates an opening for a technique. Technique shouldn't be something that you try to do, it should be something that happens as a result of your movement.


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## Yari (Mar 3, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> ......
> *the goal of atemi is not to strike the body, but to control the mind and direction of the partners energy.* flowing into all sorts of clever and strategic martial arts techniques, the base of aiki is the same as that of all communication for example verbal and bodylanguage.
> j


 

I dont' agree on that. I could agree if you wrote: the goal of atemi, through the strike, is to control the mind and direction of the partner.

If your stating that the only atemi needed is no-touching atemi, to be able to control the mind and direction of the partner, I don't agree. Thoug I agree on the term that a sound (kiai) or a movement(that can be seen by your partner) can trigger and thus "control" mind/direction. I see these as just a part of your toolbox. Just as I see atemi that conenct to the body as other tools in your toolbox.

These different tools have different degrees of usage/damage/possiblities. And each have there own value, but I think it's to put a wet towle over your eyes if you only use some of them. 

Regards
Yari


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## Yari (Mar 3, 2008)

morph4me said:


> Actually it's a little of both, if your atemi becomes part of your tai sabaki, it creates an opening for a technique. Technique shouldn't be something that you try to do, it should be something that happens as a result of your movement.


 
and the response of the "partner"......


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## ejaazi (Mar 5, 2008)

I have seen some atemi's that would knock a person out. I have also seen some that were thrown to offset the person's balance during those times when the uke was able to regain his balance or was about to. Some atemi's, to me, seem to be a way of directing the uke's attention away from the technique so that he doesn't have time to resist what is happening. In any of the above situations, I find the use of atemi extremely important.


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## charyuop (Mar 6, 2008)

ejaazi said:


> In any of the above situations, I find the use of atemi extremely important.


 
Aikido is 70% Atemi....

Does it sound familiar?


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