# Are modern ninjutsu schools frauds?



## Grimlon332 (Jul 1, 2019)

I was snooping around on the Internet, when I came across videos and articles about actual ninjutsu schools, like the Bunjinkan of Masaaki Hatsumi. I did some searches about what the shcool had to offer, and I was pretty excited to try my hand one day. But, I also found ton of videos or forum posts, who made harsh critics about ninjutsu teacher on the internet, mocking them and showing that they were fraud.

Now, I'm asking, are all the ninjutsu fraudulent like said in these videos or the reality is more shady?

Thanks a lot for your answer and have a good day!


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)




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## Grimlon332 (Jul 1, 2019)

A storm is comin'?


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2019)

Judge for yourself rather than listen to a bunch of strangers who've probably never trained a day in their lives


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## Grimlon332 (Jul 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Judge for yourself rather than listen to a bunch of strangers who've probably never trained a day in their lives



 That's a good idea. I planned to do that this summer. And you, have you trained in Bujinkan for example?


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2019)

Grimlon332 said:


> I was snooping around on the Internet, when I came across videos and articles about actual ninjutsu schools, like the Bunjinkan of Masaaki Hatsumi. I did some searches about what the shcool had to offer, and I was pretty excited to try my hand one day. But, I also found ton of videos or forum posts, who made harsh critics about ninjutsu teacher on the internet, mocking them and showing that they were fraud.
> 
> Now, I'm asking, are all the ninjutsu fraudulent like said in these videos or the reality is more shady?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your answer and have a good day!


it rather depends on what you / they mean by fraud, that would required them to make claims/ give promises they knew to be untrue. if they are promising to turn you into a ninja killing machine, that might be crossing the line,

if its more a question of the efficacy of what they teach, then its slightly more subjective judgement, go with an open mind but a teaspoon of cynicism and see what you think

most of the traditional arts get a hard time on the internet, however some of them at some clubs are quite good ?,


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 1, 2019)

Grimlon332 said:


> A storm is comin'?


Yes, run while you still can.   


Now for a serious response, one that i probably should put in a diffrent post so people dont rate it funny for the joe above but what ever.


Im going to say most modern ninjitsu schools you can find have no relation to ninjitsu, you may be able to find a few people who have groups set up for living history to resurrect the skills they used to use and such.    Kind of like how re enactment groups fight and live in the time frame they re enact for.  and exist to portray it as accurately as possible and as reliably as possible.

As a modern combat system though i think its basically useless or you can get a better education in "ninja" skills if you try and get into the military or find a group which teaches realistic modern tactics.   Or at least outside of the "martial arts school" category.  

By that i mean, soldiers (obviously pending country, rank and job and climate as in war time, peacetime and where the war(s) are)    Learn to fight with a rifle, go through aggression training, learn to live in the field, learn camouflage and concealment, can learn to stalk humans etc. If we break into special forces and unconventional fighting, lock picking, sabotage skills surveillance and hiding in populations is also included as well as potentially tracking along with other things.  Much better than a jujitsu school can probably teach you and set in the modern world.  

But as a disclaimer i haven't done it, some things may be applicable from it and there might be a few (and i mean that to be a very low number) good schools out there which might more or less do the non combative elements from ninjitsu but as a generalization, the above applies.  Always keep a open mind and follow evidence if you do dealings with them though and always question the purpose for something and if its meant for combat want it pressure tested as best as possible.  I would say do that for any martial art you undertake or any teacher you are learning a skill from.


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2019)

Rat said:


> Yes, run while you still can.
> 
> 
> Now for a serious response, one that i probably should put in a diffrent post so people dont rate it funny for the joe above but what ever.
> ...


Sorry but how can you claim what's useless and what's not when you don't train anything? Unless you've now started training


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## JR 137 (Jul 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Sorry but how can you claim what's useless and what's not when you don't train anything? Unless you've now started training


He’s watched videos and heard people talk sh!t about it online. That’s sufficient research


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 1, 2019)

Grimlon332 said:


> But, I also found ton of videos or forum posts, who made harsh critics about ninjutsu teacher on the internet, mocking them and showing that they were fraud.
> 
> Now, I'm asking, are all the ninjutsu fraudulent like said in these videos or the reality is more shady?


I don't know what videos or forums you've been looking at, but I suspect you may be conflating some very different criticisms of different teachers. 

One category of criticism is that someone is a literal fraud, meaning they are deliberately, knowingly deceiving students about the material they are teaching and their qualifications for teaching it. This would cover teachers who claim to have learned an actual historical Japanese lineage of an art practiced by the historical ninja directly from the last surviving member of a ninja family, when in reality they just made it all up based on a foundation of karate and inspiration from movies. (Since MartialTalk has a prohibition on fraudbusting, I will not be naming any names.) These individuals may or may not be competent martial artists or instructors, but they are frauds in that they are lying to their students.

The next category would be instructors who learned from the first category (deliberate fraud), but who believed what they were taught. These individuals may or may not be competent martial artists or instructors, but their art has no connection to historical ninjutsu. I would not call these teachers frauds, although they may be misguided.

The X-kan (Bujinkan and its offshoots) arts occupy an ambiguous place in relation to the categories above. The arts taught in the X-kan organizations include modern interpretations of genuine verifiable historical Japanese arts. However the verifiable arts are not ninjutsu and the ninjutsu arts are not currently verifiable as being genuine historical arts reaching back to the actual ninja. There are practitioners doing research in verifying such a connection, but it may never be proved one way or another. _If_ the "ninjutsu" components of the X-Kans _were_ created fraudulently, it would have been done over 60 years ago, by someone who at least had a solid foundation in historical Japanese arts and may have been attempting to recreate a ninjutsu system based on that knowledge. In any case, current practitioners of the X-Kan arts should *not* be regarded as frauds in the sense of deliberately misrepresenting themselves or the history of their art. (Unless you find an instructor who lies about his rank or training, but you can find that sort of thing in any art.)

The other sort of criticism you might encounter is the idea that the training in "ninjutsu" schools (Bujinkan or otherwise) is just not effective for the claimed purpose of combat or self-defense and that the instructors are "fraudulent" for claiming it is. Whatever the merits of such criticism, I would argue that "fraud" is the wrong word. Every "ninjutsu" instructor I have ever met or trained with has been genuinely confident in the value and effectiveness of what they are teaching. If they are wrong, it doesn't make them frauds, just misguided.

I should add that every single martial art on the face of the planet has detractors who will claim it is ineffective for self-defense. Until you have personal experience, you don't have a good basis for knowing which critiques have validity. I spent a number of years training in the Bujinkan before I went on to other arts. I have my own opinions and critiques of how they do things. However since you've never met me or trained with me, you have no way of knowing whether my opinions are worth anything or if they're a bunch of hot air. If you are interested in the Bujinkan and have a good school nearby, give it a try and judge for yourself. (I should warn you that the Bujinkan does have a well-deserved reputation for … inconsistency in quality control when awarding rankings. If the teacher you find has a high rank, they might be really good ,,, or pretty crappy … or somewhere in-between. Caveat emptor.)


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> He’s watched videos and heard people talk sh!t about it online. That’s sufficient research


Damm a YouTube grandmaster you don't wanna mess with those guys


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Sorry but how can you claim what's useless and what's not when you don't train anything? Unless you've now started training



The same way you can claim meth is bad without being a crack head.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

The way I look at the validity of a martial art is to see if they have evidence that they work.

Which brings us to the celestial tea cup.


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## dunc (Jul 1, 2019)

Pretty much what Tony says

The Bujinkan includes several arts that are relatively straightforward, well documented old styles of martial art
It also includes several styles that come from the Iga region which is famous for ninja
Until recently the transmission of these Iga styles was purely oral and thus unverifiable. Hence there’s a fair bit of conjecture and noise on the web about this

However, there has recently been some research into the stories and family ties around the Ira connection and there is now evidence that a) there is a direct family connection from the lord of a castle in Iga to the Bujinkan, b) the family were senior respected martial artists, c) they held positions in government traditionally associated with ninja, and d) they may have been tasked with some unusual jobs in times of trouble


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## Martial D (Jul 1, 2019)

Grimlon332 said:


> I was snooping around on the Internet, when I came across videos and articles about actual ninjutsu schools, like the Bunjinkan of Masaaki Hatsumi. I did some searches about what the shcool had to offer, and I was pretty excited to try my hand one day. But, I also found ton of videos or forum posts, who made harsh critics about ninjutsu teacher on the internet, mocking them and showing that they were fraud.
> 
> Now, I'm asking, are all the ninjutsu fraudulent like said in these videos or the reality is more shady?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your answer and have a good day!



Caveat Emptor


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

dunc said:


> Pretty much what Tony says
> 
> The Bujinkan includes several arts that are relatively straightforward, well documented old styles of martial art
> It also includes several styles that come from the Iga region which is famous for ninja
> ...




The other theory is it was just a special forces thing. 

Just grab a bunch of soldiers to do some sneaky work. And congratulations you are Ninjas now. 

Either way. It still needs to be relevant to be more than just historical recreation.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> The same way you can claim meth is bad without being a crack head.


Well...yeah. If I want to know about meth, Id probably ask a meth head, not a crack head.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Well...yeah. If I want to know about meth, Id probably ask a meth head, not a crack head.


Just want to add a caveat. Neither I as a person, martial artist, nor moderator of martialtalk are recommending that people go and ask meth users about what meth is like. Please do not do this, it is a bad idea.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Well...yeah. If I want to know about meth, Id probably ask a meth head, not a crack head.



Where as for me. I am just going to trust all those medical professionals. Even though they have never tried it for themselves.

Over those guys who have used it and tell me is totally cool.

(Yeah meth and crack are probably different. And we call meth ice anyway. )


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Where as for me. I am just going to trust all those medical professionals. Even though they have never tried it for themselves.
> 
> Over those guys who have used it and tell me is totally cool.
> 
> (Yeah meth and crack are probably different. And we call meth ice anyway. )


Yeah I get your point and agree. That's why I added the second post. I just couldn't resist making the comment


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## JR 137 (Jul 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> The same way you can claim meth is bad without being a crack head.


For the record, meth users are tweakers; crack users are crackheads.


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## Grimlon332 (Jul 2, 2019)

dunc said:


> Pretty much what Tony says
> 
> The Bujinkan includes several arts that are relatively straightforward, well documented old styles of martial art
> It also includes several styles that come from the Iga region which is famous for ninja
> ...



Thanks for the awnswer. It was one of my interrogations. I saw that there were many schools taught by the bujinkan, and some were subject of a lot of deabtes, like Togakure-Ryu for example. The only thing that I have to do now to have a confirmation, is to go to a Bujinkan dojo (there is one near my home) and see it by myself I think.


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## pdg (Jul 2, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Where as for me. I am just going to trust all those medical professionals. Even though they have never tried it for themselves.
> 
> Over those guys who have used it and tell me is totally cool.



There's a difference though - as a chemical reaction there are verifiable and defined physiological responses to drugs of all sorts.

Even then, any side effects vary depending upon the individual in question, hence why the information leaflets supplied with medicinal drugs tend to detail 'possible side effects', as opposed to 'guaranteed side effects'.

So saying "drugs are bad mmmkay" is somewhat analogous to saying "a kick in the happy sack will always work".


In other words, some things work for some people that don't work for others and vice versa.


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## Martial D (Jul 2, 2019)

What if we could market a product that not only doesn't exist, but never existed?

Maybe taking a Japanese first name and a Korean last name could help...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Sorry but how can you claim what's useless and what's not when you don't train anything? Unless you've now started training



I dont see how thats relevant the the rest of my point, i focused namely on the "ninja" skills, to which no other thing in the "martial arts school" category can be used as a analog.  The only analog i can see is the security and defence industry both public and private and they are focused on the contemporary world not the past.       So again, my point wasnt if they teach you to straight punch right its useless, its there are better places to learn all of it, outside of Ninjitsu and of the portion of legitimate schools a element might be focused on historical accuracy which means they are re enactors basically.   I wouldn't tell someone to join a WW2 re enactment to learn martial skill.  I would how ever tell someone who is interested in that country/unit in the war and how they fought and lived to join a WW2 re enactment group. 

How ever the very last part of my post is this:   "But as a disclaimer i haven't done it, some things may be applicable from it and there might be a few (and i mean that to be a very low number) good schools out there which might more or less do the non combative elements from ninjitsu but as a generalization, the above applies. Always keep a open mind and follow evidence if you do dealings with them though and always question the purpose for something and if its meant for combat want it pressure tested as best as possible. I would say do that for any martial art you undertake or any teacher you are learning a skill from."

So if he wants to do it what ever, just keep a open mind and try and pressure test the skills you are taught.   In this case i would suggest finding some good books/articles/media on the Ninja and skimming them to make sure the place lines up historically as well.  (if its of its of intrest anyway)

A counter question to the one proposed to myself though, how can you claim something made pre 1800's japan is good for modern day England or japan?      Two different cultures, law sets and environments, completely different technology available etc.           I personally don't think you can say its good for the modern day in any capacity apart from how to beat someone with your fists if it does that, and there are  many places which teach you to do that better.

As a actual response to the question proposed, my second to last reply to people asking was "im no longer answering".


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 2, 2019)

Rat said:


> i focused namely on the "ninja" skills, to which no other thing in the "martial arts school" category can be used as a analog


If you're talking about the stealth/espionage aspects of the historical art, those aren't really taught much anyway. 99+% of Bujinkan training is standard unarmed and weapon-based martial arts. Steve Hayes played up the esoteric "ninja" skills for marketing purposes in his early books, but those don't make up very much of the training and it's just as well. Most Bujinkan instructors don't really have significant skill or knowledge in those areas anyway unless they have it from some other part of their background (military training, etc).


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 2, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you're talking about the stealth/espionage aspects of the historical art, those aren't really taught much anyway. 99+% of Bujinkan training is standard unarmed and weapon-based martial arts.



Oh thank god, i cant get over the stereotypical video of someone dressed up in that ninja outfit where normal clothes or some form of camouflage pattern would work better.  

Apart from that i don't think much really sets it apart from any other style?   I don't really want to have the argument of why do XYZ over XYZ, but why do it?     People must just like their methodology of teaching or want to experience it i suppose.    or it has  a few gems no other style has, some things have that, or at least one thing thats good in it.    

As previously mentioned i haven't done it and given the state of modern i don't think i could trust any place claiming to teach it that its legit.   If any of that is covered in your previous post i am going back to read it now.


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## Buka (Jul 2, 2019)




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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Just want to add a caveat. Neither I as a person, martial artist, nor moderator of martialtalk are recommending that people go and ask meth users about what meth is like. Please do not do this, it is a bad idea.


Now you tell me.


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## BrendanF (Jul 12, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> For the record, meth users are tweakers; crack users are crackheads.



Not necessarily.

Outside the US (it exists!!) meth is sometimes called 'crack'.  typically places with less cocaine.


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## Buka (Jul 12, 2019)

There's a lot in life that I don't understand. 

But how anyone can see those before and after pics of meth heads and say, "yeah, I think I'll go try that drug right there" kind of baffles me.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 12, 2019)

BrendanF said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Outside the US (it exists!!) meth is sometimes called 'crack'.  typically places with less cocaine.


Those people are messing up their drugs


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## Martial D (Jul 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Those people are messing up their drugs


And it's probably mutual!


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## JR 137 (Jul 12, 2019)

BrendanF said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Outside the US (it exists!!) meth is sometimes called 'crack'.  typically places with less cocaine.


You sure about the world existing outside of the US? Just doesn’t seem logical to me.


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## JR 137 (Jul 12, 2019)

Buka said:


> There's a lot in life that I don't understand.
> 
> But how anyone can see those before and after pics of meth heads and say, "yeah, I think I'll go try that drug right there" kind of baffles me.


Too bad I could only agree once.

My brother has this problem with heroin. I could never understand how he’s seen what it’s done to other people, some of whom we know pretty well, and start doing it anyway. Then there’s the whole needle thing. How does anyone in their right mind think anything good can come from sticking a needle in your arm recreationally.

I guess I’m just not seeing something.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 12, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Too bad I could only agree once.
> 
> My brother has this problem with heroin. I could never understand how he’s seen what it’s done to other people, some of whom we know pretty well, and start doing it anyway. Then there’s the whole needle thing. How does anyone in their right mind think anything good can come from sticking a needle in your arm recreationally.
> 
> I guess I’m just not seeing something.


With heroin- certain reasons for starting make sense to me. A lot of people ended up on heroin through other opiates, that were prescribed and they built up a tolerance, or lost their prescription or got addicted and discovered heroins cheaper on the streets.  A couple girls i worked with in the past were victims of sex trafficking, who were forcibly made addicted to heroin as a means of control. Both of those i can understand. Even the people who started as a teen, as a result of peer pressure-not smart, but teenagers aren't known for making good, well thought out decisions. But I still don't get (and ive had it explained to me a ton of times) why people will just pick it up, never having taken opiates in their lives, knowing its effects, and decide to try it out.


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## JR 137 (Jul 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> With heroin- certain reasons for starting make sense to me. A lot of people ended up on heroin through other opiates, that were prescribed and they built up a tolerance, or lost their prescription or got addicted and discovered heroins cheaper on the streets.  A couple girls i worked with in the past were victims of sex trafficking, who were forcibly made addicted to heroin as a means of control. Both of those i can understand. Even the people who started as a teen, as a result of peer pressure-not smart, but teenagers aren't known for making good, well thought out decisions. But I still don't get (and ive had it explained to me a ton of times) why people will just pick it up, never having taken opiates in their lives, knowing its effects, and decide to try it out.


The last part that we both fail to understand is my brother. I’ve tried to figure it out, but at the end of the day it doesn’t change anything. He does what he does for his own reasons. I see him when someone gets married or dies, but beyond that I don’t have any interaction with him anymore. It really kills me, but too many things have happened that I don’t want to subject myself, or far worse, my wife and daughters to anything that could happen. You can only try to help and get burned so many times before you have to turn your back. We’re in a good place right now and no one’s going to change that. Unfortunate, but that’s the way it has to be. We both know it. Until he’s fully recovered, anyway. Then I’ll do everything I can.

He’s seen it enough times before he started. I guess it was that whole “it won’t happen to me” and “I can control it” mentality. Now everything is everyone else’s fault somehow. Typical addict mentality.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 13, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> The last part that we both fail to understand is my brother. I’ve tried to figure it out, but at the end of the day it doesn’t change anything. He does what he does for his own reasons. I see him when someone gets married or dies, but beyond that I don’t have any interaction with him anymore. It really kills me, but too many things have happened that I don’t want to subject myself, or far worse, my wife and daughters to anything that could happen. You can only try to help and get burned so many times before you have to turn your back. We’re in a good place right now and no one’s going to change that. Unfortunate, but that’s the way it has to be. We both know it. Until he’s fully recovered, anyway. Then I’ll do everything I can.
> 
> He’s seen it enough times before he started. I guess it was that whole “it won’t happen to me” and “I can control it” mentality. Now everything is everyone else’s fault somehow. Typical addict mentality.


The everything is everyone else's fault is something I've been struggling to accept at work the last few weeks-seeing how much they're hurting themselves (not just with drugs, with everything...legal issues, jobs, housing, relationships), and continuously blaming everyone else/expecting someone else (read:me) to magically fix it. 

The important thing to remember though, beyond what you already said, is while you can't understand why he chose to start it, you can understand why he's continuing it, and what addiction is. There's a lot more out there on the topic today then there was 20 years ago. And for family members it basically comes down to: don't enable them, support their recovery if you can/are willing, and be there for them when they are better. Sadly, not much more can be done.


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## punisher73 (Jul 17, 2019)

Tony has pretty much summarized "ninjutsu".  It must be remembered that the Samurai and Ninja were "military" type training.  So, if we look at our own special forces today, it would be very similar to the same thing.  There is not one skill set that is "SEAL training" or "Ranger training".  You learn a whole lot of different skills from different instructors.  For example, outside of the military training, some special units learn skills like lockpicking, surveillance/countersurveillance of a target person, evasive driving and the list goes on.

If you look at "ninja manuals" that we have historically (actual texts not books written about ninjutsu like Hatsumi or Hayes), they cover topics like using the moon and weather patterns for night time missions, fortress reinforcements, etc. 

Looking at the "hand to hand" of the ninja.  What would it be designed for?  The ninja's job was to avoid detection and get out.  His techniques were designed around escaping grabs/holds and getting away and escaping grabs/holds when trying to access their weapon(s)   They would not have been designed for a frontal confrontation in a dualing format or designed around the normal "habitual acts of violence" like karate was for civilian self-defense.

I am not saying that you can't adopt those methodologies to self-defense, just that it wasn't their primary consideration or purpose.  Also, as Tony said there are some arts that were taught, but were not complete "ninjutsu" methods (only 9 in the bujinkan).  The art that Hatsumi teaches now is called "budo taijutsu" and doesn't use the ninja label.


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## blackknight7891 (Jul 31, 2019)

Grimlon332 said:


> I was snooping around on the Internet, when I came across videos and articles about actual ninjutsu schools, like the Bunjinkan of Masaaki Hatsumi. I did some searches about what the shcool had to offer, and I was pretty excited to try my hand one day. But, I also found ton of videos or forum posts, who made harsh critics about ninjutsu teacher on the internet, mocking them and showing that they were fraud.
> 
> Now, I'm asking, are all the ninjutsu fraudulent like said in these videos or the reality is more shady?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your answer and have a good day!




Bunjinkan has spread quite quickly around the world, no doubt you could find poor instructors or frauds acting under the Bunjinkan name. Hatsumi does claim to the schools he teachers under Bunjinkan.

Does it work, I presuming you interested in Ninjutsu as a self-defence school,  if you've ever seen BJJ training or MMA fight, and have no experience training in it, you probably missed all of the little movements and action taken when you see someone break through a guard or move to the back. Its hard to see why something works when you've never done it. Only real way to know if your local Dojo is worth training at is to try it out, usually you can get discounted or free try out classes, and just be aware of what and how things are taught and work out if its worth it for  you. at the end of the day you walk away with a new experience.

Some ways to tell if a school might be dodgy.
does the school allow you to train with resistance can you break away with the pattern and play with the technique?
if you train with a partner do they adjust to your movements or do they make you adjust so it works?
when you ask the question "what if they have a knife" and the first answer isn't "give them what they want and run", then run. (this is a big one for me)
when you question how or when a technique might work, you actually get an answer, and not "trust me".
lots of hidden fees.


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## jboler (Aug 2, 2019)

Wow.  Been out a long time, yet this topic is still being thrown around.  I look at this way.  Fraud=deceit.  Therefore, if they are they using false credentials, writing false histories, etc., then yes they are frauds.

Using the term "legitimate" is a different question.  If they are up front about who they are, where they came from, etc., can you call them illegitimate?  They are not frauds...it's subject to interpretation.  To some, illegitimate means they have no direct lineage to historical Ninjutsu.  To others, combat effectiveness determines legitimacy.

I don't think you can throw the Bujinkan in to that group, as there are multiple systems in that group, only one of which is Ninpo.


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## Finlay (Aug 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> What if we could market a product that not only doesn't exist, but never existed?
> 
> Maybe taking a Japanese first name and a Korean last name could help...



You mean....... no don't say his name


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Finlay said:


> You mean....... no don't say his name


Saying it once is okay. Even twice. Never say it the third time, though.


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## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2019)

I wouldn’t call them frauds, but man, Bujinkan and Toshindo ground fighting is awful. I’ve seen martial arts that are technically sound, but just have fundamental training issues, but the ground work I’ve seen from the ninja guys is neither technically sound or trained well. You could literally train that stuff for the rest of your life and you won’t be as competent in ground fighting as a Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, Shao Jiao, Catch, etc. novice. It’s *that* bad.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I wouldn’t call them frauds, but man, Bujinkan and Toshindo ground fighting is awful. I’ve seen martial arts that are technically sound, but just have fundamental training issues, but the ground work I’ve seen from the ninja guys is neither technically sound or trained well. You could literally train that stuff for the rest of your life and you won’t be as competent in ground fighting as a Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, Shao Jiao, Catch, etc. novice. It’s *that* bad.


It's easy to fall into bad ground work if you only ever do a few moves down there, and only ever in compliant drills (never moving on to at least light resistance). The basic moves I learned in NGA are vaguely similar to a couple of basic sweeps I picked up from BJJ guys. Vaguely. Like, if you squint and don't have your glasses on, they look similar from a distance. But none of the fundamentals were really there. The ground control moves are okay, but they lack some of the over-arching principles for side control and such, and those develop almost naturally if you just roll a bit.


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's easy to fall into bad ground work if you only ever do a few moves down there, and only ever in compliant drills (never moving on to at least light resistance). The basic moves I learned in NGA are vaguely similar to a couple of basic sweeps I picked up from BJJ guys. Vaguely. Like, if you squint and don't have your glasses on, they look similar from a distance. But none of the fundamentals were really there. The ground control moves are okay, but they lack some of the over-arching principles for side control and such, and those develop almost naturally if you just roll a bit.



Well yeah, but the difference is that you admit it. Those guys don't admit it. Instead they say that their stuff is simply too dangerous and refuse to test it against other systems that specialize in it. Instead of improving their craft, they're creating nonsensical myths about where the lackluster techniques originated from instead of just admitting that they made them up.

And that's the real tragedy in all of this, because they really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Well yeah, but the difference is that you admit it. Those guys don't admit it. Instead they say that their stuff is simply too dangerous and refuse to test it against other systems that specialize in it. Instead of improving their craft, they're creating nonsensical myths about where the lackluster techniques originated from instead of just admitting that they made them up.
> 
> And that's the real tragedy in all of this, because they really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.


I think you'll find most groups that don't specialize in groundwork have a mix of those who are aware of fundamental groundwork issues (either flaws in design, or flaws that have crept in because of lack of tempering) and those who aren't. That's true within NGA, and probably true within the Bujinkan, as well. Though, often, those who recognize the weaknesses are not public in their views - they just do something different within their school.


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## dunc (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Well yeah, but the difference is that you admit it. Those guys don't admit it. Instead they say that their stuff is simply too dangerous and refuse to test it against other systems that specialize in it. Instead of improving their craft, they're creating nonsensical myths about where the lackluster techniques originated from instead of just admitting that they made them up.
> 
> And that's the real tragedy in all of this, because they really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.



Curious to know what you’re referring to?
There is VERY little ground work in the Bujinkan curriculum. Some sacrifice throws transitioning into mount, jumping guard with a variation on the double ankle sweep, some sweeps from the ground and some traditional kneeling techniques
But that’s about it
I don’t know anyone credible who claims otherwise (I’m of course excluding the crazies)


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

dunc said:


> Curious to know what you’re referring to?
> There is VERY little ground work in the Bujinkan curriculum. Some sacrifice throws transitioning into mount, jumping guard with a variation on the double ankle sweep, some sweeps from the ground and some traditional kneeling techniques
> But that’s about it
> I don’t know anyone credible who claims otherwise (I’m of course excluding the crazies)












Would you consider them some of the "crazies"?

Unfortunately the Toshindo videos have disappeared.


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## dunc (Sep 16, 2019)

Toshindo I would

I have to say that the other clip is quite disappointing in that the attackers are not giving anything much to work with and leaving way too much space so Hatsumi-sensei can deal with them pretty easily with dirty tricks
TBH most of what I’ve seen him teach (which isn’t in the curriculum per se) is dirty tricks
If you look at what he’s doing the structure is there, albeit in a pretty small way (he is 70 odd in this clip) & I suspect that this has come from his Judo background as much as anything

When asked about ground fighting he pretty much always says a) if you want to learn that then go to the Gracies, b) it has limited value from a perspective of budo, but c) people who are good at it have a powerful weapon and you should make sure you can deal with it


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Would you consider them some of the "crazies"?
> 
> Unfortunately the Toshindo videos have disappeared.


The Toshindo ground material is stuff that Steve Hayes came up with after leaving the Bujinkan. (In the case of that particular video I believe it’s based on an actual catch wrestling technique that he didn’t understand correctly.)

I suspect the techniques shown by Hatsumi in the video you posted are just something he improvised on the spot and not part of the official Bujinkan curriculum. The only ground work I know of that was in the Bujinkan traditionally are the bits that Dunc mentioned. (Any current Bujinkan members can correct me if new stuff has been added to the regular curriculum. It’s been a long time since I was part of the Bujinkan.)

Either way, those videos do show the dangers of teaching material you’ve made up without actual testing.


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

dunc said:


> Toshindo I would



Interesting. Does Toshindo have a negative reputation in BBT circles?



> If you look at what he’s doing the structure is there,


 
Actually it isn't....


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The Toshindo ground material is stuff that Steve Hayes came up with after leaving the Bujinkan. (In the case of that particular video I believe it’s based on an actual catch wrestling technique that he didn’t understand correctly.)
> 
> I suspect the techniques shown by Hatsumi in the video you posted are just something he improvised on the spot and not part of the official Bujinkan curriculum. The only ground work I know of that was in the Bujinkan traditionally are the bits that Dunc mentioned. (Any current Bujinkan members can correct me if new stuff has been added to the regular curriculum. It’s been a long time since I was part of the Bujinkan.)
> 
> Either way, those videos do show the dangers of teaching material you’ve made up without actual testing.



From what I've read they have a rather robust newaza curriculum supposedly originating from the Fudoryu or something. Toshindo supposedly has an entire sub system of grappling based on the earth.

I was considering purchasing a few videos just out of curiosity because I'm a grappling nerd.


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## dunc (Sep 16, 2019)

I dunno where Toshindo got their stuff from
Generally speaking most people in the Bujinkan view Hayes as a guy who got the equivalent of a couple of years worth of instruction under his belt and then went out on his own filling in the gaps as he went. So it’s a different thing

FWIW I have tested / experimented with the dirty tricks against experienced grapplers (before I got into grappling) and they held up pretty well
Although I concluded that they would be much more reliable if added onto solid, structural grappling movements


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

dunc said:


> I dunno where Toshindo got their stuff from
> Generally speaking most people in the Bujinkan view Hayes as a guy who got the equivalent of a couple of years worth of instruction under his belt and then went out on his own filling in the gaps as he went. So it’s a different thing
> 
> FWIW I have tested / experimented with the dirty tricks against experienced grapplers (before I got into grappling) and they held up pretty well
> Although I concluded that they would be much more reliable if added onto solid, structural grappling movements



I wouldnt say that Hatsumi is doing dirty tricks as much as he's just doing very bad grappling. There's some instances in that video where he is only using his arms *from the bottom* to pull someone out of mount position.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I wouldnt say that Hatsumi is doing dirty tricks as much as he's just doing very bad grappling. There's some instances in that video where he is only using his arms *from the bottom* to pull someone out of mount position.


I believe most of those are instances where he's using pressure points and/or skin grabs to move the top person via pain compliance.

Of course those won't work against a conditioned grappler or even most untrained people under the influence of adrenaline in a real fight. However they can provoke a response in a calm, compliance-based training situation.


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I believe most of those are instances where he's using pressure points and/or skin grabs to move the top person via pain compliance.
> 
> Of course those won't work against a conditioned grappler or even most untrained people under the influence of adrenaline in a real fight. However they can provoke a response in a calm, compliance-based training situation.



Yeah, I wouldnt rely on twisting someone's nipples to get out from under a mount.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I wouldnt rely on twisting someone's nipples to get out from under a mount.


Yeah, any pain compliance, IMO, should be in addition to something that works without the pain. So, if pressure on the chest is part of a movement that will work without pain, then there's no harm in adding the nipple twist, since you're not relying on it.


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

So supposedly Hayes developed the Toshindo groundfighting system to fight against Bjj and Wrestlers. The basis of this ground system is kata.

That's utterly fascinating, and makes me even more interested in purchasing their videos.


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## dunc (Sep 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I wouldnt rely on twisting someone's nipples to get out from under a mount.



Err - he’s using pain + hand trap + bridging
First thing he says is to bridge the body....


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## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2019)

dunc said:


> Err - he’s using pain + hand trap + bridging
> First thing he says is to bridge the body....



Yeah, but he has to be using pain, because that level of bridging isnt enough to get someone off of you when you're at that level of a weight disadvantage.

Compare Hatsumi's bridging to the bridging in this vid;






I also gotta say that his ground and pound defense is absolutely laughable. Please dont ever do that.


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## dunc (Sep 17, 2019)

Yeah this is the point I was trying to make
The structure is there (trap, bridge etc), but his attackers’ attacks and reactions are so bad that he doesn’t need to do much

I know what you mean on the ground and pound, although I’ve found the strike he uses to be quite effective


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## dunc (Sep 17, 2019)

I’d also add that out of 1,000s of hours of footage of Hatsumi sensei this is probably the only 5mins or so that you’ll see him doing ground work
So it really is a tiny part of the curriculum (other than the items mentioned before)


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, any pain compliance, IMO, should be in addition to something that works without the pain. So, if pressure on the chest is part of a movement that will work without pain, then there's no harm in adding the nipple twist, since you're not relying on it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


>


Good example. If the pain hadn't worked, Haseman was still in a dominant position and had other options.


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## blackknight7891 (Sep 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, any pain compliance, IMO, should be in addition to something that works without the pain. So, if pressure on the chest is part of a movement that will work without pain, then there's no harm in adding the nipple twist, since you're not relying on it.



So far i don't recall having been taught any technique that required pain compliance, but "softeners" certainly helped against the larger more stubborn students, and i've learned a few new "softeners" being stubborn myself.



Hanzou said:


> Would you consider them some of the "crazies"?
> 
> Unfortunately the Toshindo videos have disappeared.



So, these two videos seem to  show the same technique, + their variations and that's it, I haven't actually seen this yet in the 3 schools i have seen. In x-kan going to ground just isn't advised. The styles focus is on maintaining your posture, and your balance and breaking your opponents and throwing them to the ground. the only time you then jump on them in any sense is when you already have control and you intend to pin, otherwise its a stomp to the head or ribs, just anything but going to ground.  So showing two videos of the same technique doesn't really disprove the previous point that ground fighting isn't a focus and i'm not surprised theirs at least something in the the schools about escaping from this kind of position as being thrown to the ground or knocked down is likely, its just not where you want to be in this style.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2019)

dunc said:


> I’d also add that out of 1,000s of hours of footage of Hatsumi sensei this is probably the only 5mins or so that you’ll see him doing ground work
> So it really is a tiny part of the curriculum (other than the items mentioned before)



Yes, but those 5 minutes are filled with so much nonsense and such a general lack of technique, that it really makes me question what else he teaches.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2019)

blackknight7891 said:


> So, these two videos seem to  show the same technique, + their variations and that's it, I haven't actually seen this yet in the 3 schools i have seen. In x-kan going to ground just isn't advised. The styles focus is on maintaining your posture, and your balance and breaking your opponents and throwing them to the ground. the only time you then jump on them in any sense is when you already have control and you intend to pin, otherwise its a stomp to the head or ribs, just anything but going to ground.  So showing two videos of the same technique doesn't really disprove the previous point that ground fighting isn't a focus and i'm not surprised theirs at least something in the the schools about escaping from this kind of position as being thrown to the ground or knocked down is likely, its just not where you want to be in this style.



Well to be fair, I never said that they *focused* on ground fighting, I just said that their ground fighting was *very* bad.

Some more (though not from Hatsumi or Hayes);


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Well to be fair, I never said that they *focused* on ground fighting, I just said that their ground fighting was *very* bad.
> 
> Some more (though not from Hatsumi or Hayes);


Is that Bujinkan? The folks in black dogi look like it, but I've not seen any of them in white dogi before. I can't tell what the patches say.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Is that Bujinkan? The folks in black dogi look like it, but I've not seen any of them in white dogi before. I can't tell what the patches say.



It's these guys;

Shizenden Ryu Tengu Dojo

Their lineage:
Shizenden Ryu is deeply rooted in the ancient Ninjutsu schools of Japan. It was developed by Soke John Willson, who has trained for 30 years under Soke Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi (34th grandmaster, Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu). Its techniques seek to employ natural body movement and present us with a self-defense system which is universal.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Is that Bujinkan? The folks in black dogi look like it, but I've not seen any of them in white dogi before. I can't tell what the patches say.


It appears to be Shizenden Ryu, a Canadian spin-off from the Bujinkan.


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## snake_monkey (Sep 20, 2019)

I just observed a Bujinkan class but the style was a bit different than a normal Bujinkan class. I can’t really describe it but I think the teacher was less focused on forms and more focused on ‘usefullness’. I personally thought it looked really cool and it seemed pretty useful.


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2019)

snake_monkey said:


> I just observed a Bujinkan class but the style was a bit different than a normal Bujinkan class. I can’t really describe it but I think the teacher was less focused on forms and more focused on ‘usefullness’. I personally thought it looked really cool and it seemed pretty useful.



Was it demos and stage fighting?

And I straight up love this video because it shows how many martial arts train, what the end result is and why they really shouldn't unless they want to do acting.


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## Hakkan Mordrake (Feb 15, 2021)

Yes because they're teaching martial arts in the first place!!

If these schools were trying to teach real shinobi no jutsu.. nobody would show up and the schools will bring nothing in.

_"Wadyamean you're not gonna be teaching me how to be a 1960's hollywood assassin?!"

"I thought you came here to learn intelligence work, persuasion and how to survive for extended periods of time in hostile territory.."

"Man, I already know intelligence. *I PLAY CALL OF DUTY ALL DAY!!*"_


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