# Fighting with a Flail



## lklawson (Aug 27, 2020)

From Jakob Sutor, in his 17th Century "fight book."  





No, I can't read it.    but there is a translation here:
Jakob Sutor von Baden ~ Wiktenauer, the world's largest library of HEMA books and manuscripts ~☞ Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiant

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## CB Jones (Aug 27, 2020)

Looks more like hockey sticks....lol

2 minutes for high sticking


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2020)

Does anyone still teach how to fight with a flail? That instruction/technique seems like it would be very little to go on in terms of reconstruction.


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## lklawson (Aug 27, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Does anyone still teach how to fight with a flail? That instruction/technique seems like it would be very little to go on in terms of reconstruction.


Yes.  First, as far as Sutor goes, this is just one small section of his fetchbuck.  I've taken it out of context and placed it here.  His assumption is that you'll read his whole book, his system, and use the flail with the same lessons within his system, I'm assuming, in particular, the longsword and staff, which are quite a bit more developed.

There are some other sources for this sort of flail too, ims.  But Sutor's system has its own flavor.

As you know, there's a ton of resources for longsword.  Surprisingly, there's a ton of resources for (quarter)staff too.  The sources, quite literally, range centuries (and in various languages), starting in Medieval and going straight up through 20th Century in pretty much a continuous lineage with a commonality to much of the systems.  The sources range through civilian self defense to organized military to flat-out sporting competitions.

While many nations and ethnic groups used the staff, the English really seemed to get their gig on from it and there are more English language sources than not.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Yes.  First, as far as Sutor goes, this is just one small section of his fetchbuck.  I've taken it out of context and placed it here.  His assumption is that you'll read his whole book, his system, and use the flail with the same lessons within his system, I'm assuming, in particular, the longsword and staff, which are quite a bit more developed.
> 
> There are some other sources for this sort of flail too, ims.  But Sutor's system has its own flavor.
> 
> ...


I was aware of the longsword, have read/studied a bit of that when I got distracted while looking at rapier systems. I was aware of the quarterstaff, but have not delved into it yet. Didn't realize there were any sources for the flail either, although to be fair I have not, either in my own practice or in my writing, had much reason to research the flail. I probably should look into the quarterstaff resources though-not sure I can get much use of of sutor's as I don't speak 17th century german. 

Is there anyone in particular you'd recommend to start with in terms of sources for the short staff?


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## lklawson (Aug 27, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I was aware of the longsword, have read/studied a bit of that when I got distracted while looking at rapier systems. I was aware of the quarterstaff, but have not delved into it yet. Didn't realize there were any sources for the flail either, although to be fair I have not, either in my own practice or in my writing, had much reason to research the flail. I probably should look into the quarterstaff resources though-not sure I can get much use of of sutor's as I don't speak 17th century german.


The flail is just odd.  There's some stuff but not as much as I'd like.  I think that Sutor is the best well known.



> Is there anyone in particular you'd recommend to start with in terms of sources for the short staff?


The *short* staff?  I'm guessing you mean something like under 6 foot and over 4?  I guess it depends on what you want.   Hutton has a really interesting short staff system that seems to be entirely based on the Victorian understanding of Longsword and was developed for military espirit de corps.  You can certainly fight with it, but he leaves out thrusts.  OTOH, it's a stick.  Hit him with it.  And Hutton's system does that pretty well.  Past that the French have _la baton_ in varying sporting and non-sporting incarnations.  The Spanish Juego del palo and the Portuguese have Jogo do Pau (very interesting - a buddy practices it).

Or are you talking something shorter.  I have a buddy from Venezuela who teaches Garrote Larense with a machete-length stick of lemon wood (read "naturally growing rebar").

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2020)

lklawson said:


> The *short* staff?  I'm guessing you mean something like under 6 foot and over 4?


 Yup that would be the size range. 



> I guess it depends on what you want.   Hutton has a really interesting short staff system that seems to be entirely based on the Victorian understanding of Longsword and was developed for military espirit de corps.  You can certainly fight with it, but he leaves out thrusts.  OTOH, it's a stick.  Hit him with it.  And Hutton's system does that pretty well.  Past that the French have _la baton_ in varying sporting and non-sporting incarnations.  The Spanish Juego del palo and the Portuguese have Jogo do Pau (very interesting - a buddy practices it).


Awesome, thank you! Juego del palo in particular looks exactly like what I was looking for-time for me to go down a rabbit hole or two this weekend.


> Or are you talking something shorter.  I have a buddy from Venezuela who teaches Garrote Larense with a machete-length stick of lemon wood (read "naturally growing rebar").
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I might look into that at some point in the future, but for now I think researching that might confuse my kali since I'm still only a couple years into training it.


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## _Simon_ (Aug 28, 2020)

Reading the thread title I honestly thought you meant this XD


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## dvcochran (Aug 28, 2020)

Haha! The title made me laugh. A flail is also a style of disc mower used for cutting hay. It crimps the stem to speed dry down time. That is the first thing that came to mind when I saw the title.


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## wab25 (Aug 28, 2020)

I think you guys are just flailing around...

Do you have a plan? Or are you planning to flail?

When all else flails... make a bad pun!


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