# Rolled ankle injury ;)



## _Simon_

Hey guys, I rolled my ankle in a tournament recently (a week and a half ago), I can walk on it fine with no pain at all, but it still hurts quite bad at certain angles (if I turn my toes/foot inwards and do plantar flexion, it HURTS!).

Anyone have any tips from experience to assist recovery? I don't think it's serious, but potentially strained tendons. I figured just avoid putting it through the range of motion where there's pain, and doing things to increase blood flow to area? Bodyweight calf raises?

Have also learned that stretching is not necessarily very beneficial for strains/sprains (just pulls at the damaged fibers/tendons more)

Cheers


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## JR 137

Range of motion work. Stay pain-free, but out of your comfort zone if that makes sense. In other words, work through tightness, stiffness and soreness. If it’s painful, such as a stabbing or tearing feeling, back off and stay in a comfortable range.

Balance work is the key to preventing reinjury, according to several studies. Try standing on one foot for as long as you can. If you’re clocking in at several minutes, change it up. Stuff like standing on pillows, couch cushions, etc.

Stand on one foot and throw a ball against a wall. One handed, two handed, etc. Closer to the wall works better, like a few feet. 

My favorite exercise to do was using elastic tubing/theraband. Put the band around the uninsured ankle. Weight on your injured foot, and step forward with the noninjured foot while keeping the injured foot planted. I’d typically have people start in a staggered stance; toes of the uninjured near the heel of the opposite foot, and step forward to the opposite of that. Feet are fairly close. Turn around and repeat, so you’re stepping backwards. Turn sideways and step outside. Turn the other way and step inside. 

My other favorite- single leg squats of sorts. Stand sideways on stairs, holding the railing. The injured foot on the step. Opposite foot toes pointed up and heel down. Keeping your back straight, bend your knee and go down until your opposite heel touches the next step down.

As far as heat and cold go, I like contrast bath. Freeze a bunch of small paper cups filled with water. Fill a bucket with very warm water. Stick your foot into the warm water for 3 minutes. Take your foot out of the bucket. Take the ice cup, peel away a layer at the top, and rub the area with the exposed ice for a minute. Repeat for 15 minutes - 3 minutes warm, 1 minute cold, 3 minutes warm, 1 minute cold. Done right, you start and end with warm.


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Range of motion work. Stay pain-free, but out of your comfort zone if that makes sense. In other words, work through tightness, stiffness and soreness. If it’s painful, such as a stabbing or tearing feeling, back off and stay in a comfortable range.
> 
> Balance work is the key to preventing reinjury, according to several studies. Try standing on one foot for as long as you can. If you’re clocking in at several minutes, change it up. Stuff like standing on pillows, couch cushions, etc.
> 
> Stand on one foot and throw a ball against a wall. One handed, two handed, etc. Closer to the wall works better, like a few feet.
> 
> My favorite exercise to do was using elastic tubing/theraband. Put the band around the uninsured ankle. Weight on your injured foot, and step forward with the noninjured foot while keeping the injured foot planted. I’d typically have people start in a staggered stance; toes of the uninjured near the heel of the opposite foot, and step forward to the opposite of that. Feet are fairly close. Turn around and repeat, so you’re stepping backwards. Turn sideways and step outside. Turn the other way and step inside.
> 
> My other favorite- single leg squats of sorts. Stand sideways on stairs, holding the railing. The injured foot on the step. Opposite foot toes pointed up and heel down. Keeping your back straight, bend your knee and go down until your opposite heel touches the next step down.
> 
> As far as heat and cold go, I like contrast bath. Freeze a bunch of small paper cups filled with water. Fill a bucket with very warm water. Stick your foot into the warm water for 3 minutes. Take your foot out of the bucket. Take the ice cup, peel away a layer at the top, and rub the area with the exposed ice for a minute. Repeat for 15 minutes - 3 minutes warm, 1 minute cold, 3 minutes warm, 1 minute cold. Done right, you start and end with warm.


Awesome, some great ideas, thanks mate. Yeah I believe in a more proactive approach in these sorts of cases, getting bloodflow in the area and safe pain free range of motion (years ago I was the opposite and wouldn't move the injured part at all!). Cheers


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## _Simon_

Ugh... ankle still isn't better, probably about the same, if not very mild improvement.. been just doing general mobility work, foot circles, and also gentle calf raises.. has been just about 5 weeks. It's not debilitating but it definitely still hurts alot at certain angles, or even if I hit the ground slightly with the ball of my foot it hurts a great deal.. Anytime I fully flex my foot and have it impact anything to push it further it's painful.

Will give it a bit more time and then may have to get it looked at.. although sprains generally take a fair few weeks to heal up from what I've read..


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Ugh... ankle still isn't better, probably about the same, if not very mild improvement.. been just doing general mobility work, foot circles, and also gentle calf raises.. has been just about 5 weeks. It's not debilitating but it definitely still hurts alot at certain angles, or even if I hit the ground slightly with the ball of my foot it hurts a great deal.. Anytime I fully flex my foot and have it impact anything to push it further it's painful.
> 
> Will give it a bit more time and then may have to get it looked at.. although sprains generally take a fair few weeks to heal up from what I've read..


The best thing to do for sprains is really to give them time to heal.  I also use the RICE (rest, ice, compression and elevation) method for sprains but time to heal is the best way to get back on the floor.   Once you can use the foot without the pain the exercises that JR137 suggested are a good way to get the range of motion back.


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ugh... ankle still isn't better, probably about the same, if not very mild improvement.. been just doing general mobility work, foot circles, and also gentle calf raises.. has been just about 5 weeks. It's not debilitating but it definitely still hurts alot at certain angles, or even if I hit the ground slightly with the ball of my foot it hurts a great deal.. Anytime I fully flex my foot and have it impact anything to push it further it's painful.
> 
> Will give it a bit more time and then may have to get it looked at.. although sprains generally take a fair few weeks to heal up from what I've read..


With significant pain at 5 weeks, I'd go get it looked at now, rather than waiting longer. Last time I had pain after several weeks without significant improvement, it was a torn muscle that wasn't healing. A few weeks of PT guidance brought substantial relief and improvement.


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## _Simon_

Thanks heaps guys... yeah it's just at certain angles and pulls that it really hurts, but I can walk and train mostly normal. Must have sprained it... don't know whether the doc or a physio would be better to see... the doc just tends to get x-rays, tells me to rest, whereas the PT have been more helpful.. but without knowing exactly what it is, perhaps both.. funds are low so may have to hold off anyways.


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## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> Hey guys, I rolled my ankle in a tournament recently (a week and a half ago), I can walk on it fine with no pain at all, but it still hurts quite bad at certain angles (if I turn my toes/foot inwards and do plantar flexion, it HURTS!).
> 
> Anyone have any tips from experience to assist recovery? I don't think it's serious, but potentially strained tendons. I figured just avoid putting it through the range of motion where there's pain, and doing things to increase blood flow to area? Bodyweight calf raises?
> 
> Have also learned that stretching is not necessarily very beneficial for strains/sprains (just pulls at the damaged fibers/tendons more)
> 
> Cheers


Easy 

Rest - AKA don't do a lot of stuff on that ankle let it heal. Be patient
Rebhab - After you ankle has healed then to your stretching and massage exercises so you won't have bad scar tissue left where the injury was.


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## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> Ugh... ankle still isn't better, probably about the same, if not very mild improvement.. been just doing general mobility work, foot circles, and also gentle calf raises.. has been just about 5 weeks.


That's because you didn't let your ankle rest.  I bet you walked around on it a lot and moved it a lot. Think it like this.  Imagine how difficult it is to sew a tear in your clothes when someone keeps moving the area that you have to sew around.  Now imagine how much easier and faster it is to sew that same tear in your clothing if that cloth is still. 

That's what your ankle is trying to do when when you move around on it.  It's trying to reconnect torn tissue that keeps moving around.  Which is why it's good to limit that mobility and let it rest.


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## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> Easy
> 
> Rest - AKA don't do a lot of stuff on that ankle let it heal. Be patient
> Rebhab - After you ankle has healed then to your stretching and massage exercises so you won't have bad scar tissue left where the injury was.







JowGaWolf said:


> That's because you didn't let your ankle rest.  I bet you walked around on it a lot and moved it a lot. Think it like this.  Imagine how difficult it is to sew a tear in your clothes when someone keeps moving the area that you have to sew around.  Now imagine how much easier and faster it is to sew that same tear in your clothing if that cloth is still.
> 
> That's what your ankle is trying to do when when you move around on it.  It's trying to reconnect torn tissue that keeps moving around.  Which is why it's good to limit that mobility and let it rest.



Cheers mate thanks for that. Yeah you make a good point! I honestly haven't been doing much stuff with the ankle, but I guess it's hard for it to heal when I have to walk around places. And the odd training session would probably not be the best for it, although I have been using an ankle brace/wrap and strapping it tight which helps limit mobility.

I've currently finished up with trialling a style so I'm having a proper break in between now, so hopefully get a chance to heal. Appreciate your thoughts [emoji106]


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## Dirty Dog

Suck it up, Princess.
Or, more seriously, give it another week. If it's not significantly improved, you may need an MRI to see what damage has been done to the connective tissue. You may have torn something, rather than stretch it, or you may have an avulsion fracture.


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## _Simon_

Dirty Dog said:


> Suck it up, Princess.



Haha, I cannot stand that phrase ;D



Dirty Dog said:


> Or, more seriously, give it another week. If it's not significantly improved, you may need an MRI to see what damage has been done to the connective tissue. You may have torn something, rather than stretch it, or you may have an avulsion fracture.



Thanks mate, yeah feels like it is very very slowly getting better (possibly? Hard to tell...), but it's still pretty painful. Will play it by the proverbial ear


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Hey guys, I rolled my ankle in a tournament recently (a week and a half ago), I can walk on it fine with no pain at all, but it still hurts quite bad at certain angles (if I turn my toes/foot inwards and do plantar flexion, it HURTS!).
> 
> Anyone have any tips from experience to assist recovery? I don't think it's serious, but potentially strained tendons. I figured just avoid putting it through the range of motion where there's pain, and doing things to increase blood flow to area? Bodyweight calf raises?
> 
> Have also learned that stretching is not necessarily very beneficial for strains/sprains (just pulls at the damaged fibers/tendons more)
> 
> Cheers


You need to toughen up a bit, if that was a soccer injury youd be doused with a cold wet sponge and exspected to play on, not sit around for two weeks contemplating yoyr range of motion. the concept of running an injury off, seems to work extremley well or the more you restrict use, the longer it will take to heal


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## _Simon_

jobo said:


> You need to toughen up a bit, if that was a soccer injury youd be doused with a cold wet sponge and exspected to play on, not sit around for two weeks contemplating yoyr range of motion. the concept of running an injury off, seems to work extremley well or the more you restrict use, the longer it will take to heal



XD

Does that toughen up attitude work you reckon?

So you don't think smart training and recovery is the best approach?

That toughen up thing is nonsense to me sorry mate... It's useful sometimes, when trying to move through apathy and learning some real courage/grit, but it's an injury. Running it off just seems ridiculous dude!

It's lingered for 5 weeks now. I just attended an incredibly physically exhausting 3 hour karate seminar yesterday. My ankle ain't no better for it. And I've still been walking around every day, not just sitting around.

I agree that completely avoiding mobility may not be the best, but limiting it while it heals (so as to not tear anything further at the extreme ends of ROM) makes sense to me.


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> XD
> 
> Does that toughen up attitude work you reckon?
> 
> So you don't think smart training and recovery is the best approach?
> 
> That toughen up thing is nonsense to me sorry mate... It's useful sometimes, when trying to move through apathy and learning some real courage/grit, but it's an injury. Running it off just seems ridiculous dude!
> 
> It's lingered for 5 weeks now. I just attended an incredibly physically exhausting 3 hour karate seminar yesterday. My ankle ain't no better for it. And I've still been walking around every day, not just sitting around.
> 
> I agree that completely avoiding mobility may not be the best, but limiting it while it heals (so as to not tear anything further at the extreme ends of ROM) makes sense to me.


So ,, youve spent five weeks not running off and it hasnt healed, yet you dismiss the idea as lucredous, ?

But yet you said it only happened a week and a half ago, now sudenly uts five weeks And youve been " resting it, except youve just remmember a seminar you did.

You asked for advice from experiance, if the pain isnt eye popping, then get on with it, blood flow will improve the hralling and you will be come impervious to the pain, which by your description is only mild discomfort anyway, if you went to PT they would have you doing excersises that hurt, iyou can do that yoyrsekf and save the time and money

Flipping Melenials


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## _Simon_

jobo said:


> So ,, youve spent five weeks not running off and it hasnt healed, yet you dismiss the idea as lucredous, ?
> 
> But yet you said it only happened a week and a half ago, now sudenly uts five weeks And youve been " resting it, except youve just remmember a seminar you did.
> 
> You asked for advice from experiance, if the pain isnt eye popping, then get on with it, blood flow will improve the hralling and you will be come impervious to the pain, which by your description is only mild discomfort anyway, if you went to PT they would have you doing excersises that hurt, iyou can do that yoyrsekf and save the time and money
> 
> Flipping Melenials



Hehe.. I posted this thread on September 25th dude . A week and a half before that date I'd rolled my ankle. So as of today it's been 5 weeks .

The seminar was yesterday, I didn't only just remember it! I'm a tad confused! Have been taking it fairly easy on it (whilst still walking as normal) apart from the odd training session in which I'd strap up my ankle. But in a few sessions there were moments when my foot would go into a ROM that hurt.

Nah fair enough am always happy to take on advice, I do appreciate it mate. Just hard when i read and hear conflicting stuff, people saying let it rest, others say keep moving and move it through pain-free ROM, others saying train hard and ignore the pain.

What I dismiss as ludicrous is running on an injured ankle! I mean I could try it of course (even though running's out of the question because of other issues atm), but to me it would seem to put it in a danger zone of too much stress. With karate training stuff I can moderate how I do things, running is full bodyweight impact through one foot at a time...

It isn't mild discomfort, it's really quite painful but only at certain angles and pulls, otherwise I can walk on it without any pain. It's just at those extremes it hurts (full plantar flexion etc).

I do get what you're saying though, and I have still been getting on with things (still walking).

Hehe, what do us millenials do exactly?  Try to look after ourselves? Crazyness! ;D


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe.. I posted this thread on September 25th dude . A week and a half before that date I'd rolled my ankle. So as of today it's been 5 weeks .
> 
> The seminar was yesterday, I didn't only just remember it! I'm a tad confused! Have been taking it fairly easy on it (whilst still walking as normal) apart from the odd training session in which I'd strap up my ankle. But in a few sessions there were moments when my foot would go into a ROM that hurt.
> 
> Nah fair enough am always happy to take on advice, I do appreciate it mate. Just hard when i read and hear conflicting stuff, people saying let it rest, others say keep moving and move it through pain-free ROM, others saying train hard and ignore the pain.
> 
> What I dismiss as ludicrous is running on an injured ankle! I mean I could try it of course (even though running's out of the question because of other issues atm), but to me it would seem to put it in a danger zone of too much stress. With karate training stuff I can moderate how I do things, running is full bodyweight impact through one foot at a time...
> 
> It isn't mild discomfort, it's really quite painful but only at certain angles and pulls, otherwise I can walk on it without any pain. It's just at those extremes it hurts (full plantar flexion etc).
> 
> I do get what you're saying though, and I have still been getting on with things (still walking).
> 
> Hehe, what do us millenials do exactly?  Try to look after ourselves? Crazyness! ;D


Runnibg it off is a soccer term for carrying on with a seamingly painful game ending  injury that magically stops hurting when you distract yourself by chasing a ball about, as a concept it doesnt require you to actually run,though its not the worse idea.

Pain is a nebulas concept, if there was seriiys i jury then walking would result you screaming and falling to the flood, anything less than that is dependent on your persnal tollerance to pain, one mans pain is anothers mild discomfort, crry on with pain, increases yoyr tolerance and the pain magically deminishes. Till you dont notice it at all. or pain and the actual level of injury are only vaguely connected to each other, or its all in the mind

Other wise wht are you going to do, ? Youve avoided discomfort for five weeks ( in can recover from a broken leg in that time)and its no better, how many Weeks, months, years are you going to devote to this before you decieded to " run it off "?


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Runnibg it off is a soccer term for carrying on with a seamingly painful game ending  injury that magically stops hurting when you distract yourself by chasing a ball about, as a concept it doesnt require you to actually run,though its not the worse idea.
> 
> Pain is a nebulas concept, if there was seriiys i jury then walking would result you screaming and falling to the flood, anything less than that is dependent on your persnal tollerance to pain, one mans pain is anothers mild discomfort, crry on with pain, increases yoyr tolerance and the pain magically deminishes. Till you dont notice it at all. or pain and the actual level of injury are only vaguely connected to each other, or its all in the mind
> 
> Other wise wht are you going to do, ? Youve avoided discomfort for five weeks and its no bettet, how many Weeks, months, years are you going to devote to this before you decieded to " run it off "?


That's an overly simplistic understanding of what injury is. I managed just fine for weeks with a muscle torn 25% through in my forearm. But certain things - relatively small things - caused significant pain. I found out later that significant pain was me re-tearing any healing it had done. So, it wasn't healing. It wasn't getting better. What fixed it? Finding out (from a professional) what was actually wrong, how to avoid re-injury so it could heal, and finding the right exercises to help heal it (not just randomly continuing with what I normally did).

Your advice can work by accident, but it can also lead to worsening an injury.


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## Xue Sheng

_Simon_ said:


> Hey guys, I rolled my ankle in a tournament recently (a week and a half ago), I can walk on it fine with no pain at all, but it still hurts quite bad at certain angles (if I turn my toes/foot inwards and do plantar flexion, it HURTS!).
> 
> Anyone have any tips from experience to assist recovery? I don't think it's serious, but potentially strained tendons. I figured just avoid putting it through the range of motion where there's pain, and doing things to increase blood flow to area? Bodyweight calf raises?
> 
> Have also learned that stretching is not necessarily very beneficial for strains/sprains (just pulls at the damaged fibers/tendons more)
> 
> Cheers



Have not read all the responses so I apologize of this has already been said.

I have broken my ankle 3 times and sprained it within the last month. My issue with sprains is that I have broken my ankle so many times I no longer feel pain when I twist it. Last time I felt a slight bit of pain, which surprised me, but I kept on walking with out much pain for a fe days. That is until it swelled up to twice normal size 

1) see a doctor and get an x-ray. I walked around on a broken ankle for a bit and it was not getting better. Reason, it was fractured. 

2) Ankle braces are your friend

3) if it is sprained look to a splint


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## Gerry Seymour

Xue Sheng said:


> Have not read all the responses so I apologize of this has already been said.
> 
> I have broken my ankle 3 times and sprained it within the last month. My issue with sprains is that I have broken my ankle so many times I no longer feel pain when I twist it. Last time I felt a slight bit of pain, which surprised me, but I kept on walking with out much pain for a fe days. That is until it swelled up to twice normal size
> 
> 1) see a doctor and get an x-ray. I walked around on a broken ankle for a bit and it was not getting better. Reason, it was fractured.
> 
> 2) Ankle braces are your friend
> 
> 3) if it is sprained look to a splint


Yeah, I hobbled for two weeks once on a fractured leg. Surprisingly less painful than I'd have thought, but doing so wasn't helping it heal.


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## _Simon_

jobo said:


> Runnibg it off is a soccer term for carrying on with a seamingly painful game ending  injury that magically stops hurting when you distract yourself by chasing a ball about, as a concept it doesnt require you to actually run,though its not the worse idea.
> 
> Pain is a nebulas concept, if there was seriiys i jury then walking would result you screaming and falling to the flood, anything less than that is dependent on your persnal tollerance to pain, one mans pain is anothers mild discomfort, crry on with pain, increases yoyr tolerance and the pain magically deminishes. Till you dont notice it at all. or pain and the actual level of injury are only vaguely connected to each other, or its all in the mind
> 
> Other wise wht are you going to do, ? Youve avoided discomfort for five weeks ( in can recover from a broken leg in that time)and its no better, how many Weeks, months, years are you going to devote to this before you decieded to " run it off "?



Ah deepest apologies, have never heard the term running it off haha, thought you meant literally running hard on it would help it XD.

Yeah no that is actually what I've been doing. I've still been carrying mostly normal except just making sure I don't do anything silly to over-flex/extend. Not squatting/kneeling into positions that cause severe pain etc. But otherwise all else has continued.

I agree if it was really serious I wouldn't be able to walk on it, but doesn't mean I should be careless about it either . Am quite adept at tolerating pain, but also wanna be smart about it. True regarding the mental aspect of it though!


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> That's an overly simplistic understanding of what injury is. I managed just fine for weeks with a muscle torn 25% through in my forearm. But certain things - relatively small things - caused significant pain. I found out later that significant pain was me re-tearing any healing it had done. So, it wasn't healing. It wasn't getting better. What fixed it? Finding out (from a professional) what was actually wrong, how to avoid re-injury so it could heal, and finding the right exercises to help heal it (not just randomly continuing with what I normally did).
> 
> Your advice can work by accident, but it can also lead to worsening an injury.



Yep that's exactly what I want to avoid, tearing anything more. Well said.

(And youch!)


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## _Simon_

Xue Sheng said:


> Have not read all the responses so I apologize of this has already been said.
> 
> I have broken my ankle 3 times and sprained it within the last month. My issue with sprains is that I have broken my ankle so many times I no longer feel pain when I twist it. Last time I felt a slight bit of pain, which surprised me, but I kept on walking with out much pain for a fe days. That is until it swelled up to twice normal size
> 
> 1) see a doctor and get an x-ray. I walked around on a broken ankle for a bit and it was not getting better. Reason, it was fractured.
> 
> 2) Ankle braces are your friend
> 
> 3) if it is sprained look to a splint



Thanks Xue, very helpful.

And yeah that's the worst when you don't even realise it's getting worse but you don't feel pain yet!


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Yep that's exactly what I want to avoid, tearing anything more. Well said.
> 
> (And youch!)


Yeah, that's pretty much what I said. I'd have said something else, but I was in a class when I made the final tear, so I stuck to "Ow." Body language can cuss, though.


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Ah deepest apologies, have never heard the term running it off haha, thought you meant literally running hard on it would help it XD.
> 
> Yeah no that is actually what I've been doing. I've still been carrying mostly normal except just making sure I don't do anything silly to over-flex/extend. Not squatting/kneeling into positions that cause severe pain etc. But otherwise all else has continued.
> 
> I agree if it was really serious I wouldn't be able to walk on it, but doesn't mean I should be careless about it either . Am quite adept at tolerating pain, but also wanna be smart about it. True regarding the mental aspect of it though!


Well youve left with three options

Carry on as you are, and hope it gets better eventually
Look to progressively extend the range of motion by doing exercises that hurt,
Seek medical advice and be given some exercises that look to progressively extend the range of motion by doingexercises that hurt,

Your choice


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## Dirty Dog

_Simon_ said:


> I agree if it was really serious I wouldn't be able to walk on it,



Not true at all. I see people walking around on fractures all the time.


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## _Simon_

jobo said:


> Well youve left with three options
> 
> Carry on as you are, and hope it gets better eventually
> Look to progressively extend the range of motion by doing exercises that hurt,
> Seek medical advice and be given some exercises that look to progressively extend the range of motion by doingexercises that hurt,
> 
> Your choice


Yeah have been slowly incorporating ROM/mobility work, so will incrementally progress that without further tearing anything hopefully, and see what other exercises I can do. Cheers dude


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## _Simon_

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true at all. I see people walking around on fractures all the time.


Yeah good point, as Gerry had found!


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## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah have been slowly incorporating ROM/mobility work, so will incrementally progress that without further tearing anything hopefully, and see what other exercises I can do. Cheers dude


Try to reduce the movement aka stop trying to use your ankle.  You have been using it all this time and after 5 weeks it still hurrts.  take 4 days of limited use, no training and you should notice a big difference.


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## Gerry Seymour

@_Simon_, in case you missed it, @Dirty Dog is a medical professional. Of all the advice in here thus far, I'd listen most closely to his, followed closely by @JR 137, who is an experienced athletic trainer and has dealt with a lot of sports injuries.

The rest of us are working from experience and research, probably, but not as much of either as those two.


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## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> Try to reduce the movement aka stop trying to use your ankle.  You have been using it all this time and after 5 weeks it still hurrts.  take 4 days of limited use, no training and you should notice a big difference.



Yeah I've taken the last couple of days of just only doing walking and that's it. Even so still limiting that. Had the karate seminar on Saturday (which I semi-regret), so am up to day 3 of resting it. It is getting better just incredibly slowly.. Thanks mate.


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> @_Simon_, in case you missed it, @Dirty Dog is a medical professional. Of all the advice in here thus far, I'd listen most closely to his, followed closely by @JR 137, who is an experienced athletic trainer and has dealt with a lot of sports injuries.
> 
> The rest of us are working from experience and research, probably, but not as much of either as those two.


Thanks Gerry, definitely. Will get it looked at soon if it hasn't healed. I can tell it's slightly improved but will need to tread carefully...

Thanks all for the advice it's much appreciated


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## _Simon_

And I've just gone back to look at the vid of the fight in which it happened, managed to find the exact frame where it happened haha, ouch.. right foot flexed and turned in, must have got caught on the mat...


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## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> And I've just gone back to look at the vid of the fight in which it happened, managed to find the exact frame where it happened haha, ouch.. right foot flexed and turned in, must have got caught on the mat...



That looks bad to me. I guess it rolled more than you originally thought. Your structure is looks completely destroyed.  Off topic your opponent is in excellent position to stomp down on your leg.


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## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> That looks bad to me. I guess it rolled more than you originally thought. Your structure is looks completely destroyed.  Off topic your opponent is in excellent position to stomp down on your leg.


Yeah he came in suddenly and I have no idea what happened, but I moved back and must have gotten caught. I think he actually stomped down onto my hip haha.

Posted the vid here anyway, we might all learn something about "how sports injuries occur" haha. The exact moment it happens is at 0:36s






Edit: I actually just watched it back in 0.25x speed (forgot you could do that on YouTube)... yeah ouch, looks like it just got caught or something as I moved back..


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## Yokozuna514

Looks like your foot was not fully planted after your kick so when you pushed off to retreat your foot, being sideways, could not bear the weight of your body or you rolled your ankle as you said.  

Two things you can do to avoid this in the future:

- retract your foot faster and plant it back on the floor.
- don’t float/balance on your back leg for too long.  

We gauge the speed of our kicks from the time it takes your foot to leave the floor to the time it takes to return.   

I realize that you are point fighting and thus some strategies require you to do just that, float on the back leg but the risk you run is exactly what happened.  The body is going forward while the weakest part of your foot (being sideways) is pushing backwards.  When your weight is 50/50 and you have a stance wider than your shoulders then generally no problem.  It’s only when you try and change directions will this be a potential problem.

PS:  what was the final score of the bout ?


----------



## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah he came in suddenly and I have no idea what happened, but I moved back and must have gotten caught. I think he actually stomped down onto my hip haha.
> 
> Posted the vid here anyway, we might all learn something about "how sports injuries occur" haha. The exact moment it happens is at 0:36s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I actually just watched it back in 0.25x speed (forgot you could do that on YouTube)... yeah ouch, looks like it just got caught or something as I moved back..


looks like you tried to move before you had your root set.  Like trying to push off on a foot that hasn't quite touch the ground securely.  When you pushed you didn't have a sure root to push against.

I'm going to assume that there are rules about grabbing kicks by the way your opponent was just letting those kicks hangout there.



Yokazuna514 said:


> Looks like your foot was not fully planted after your kick so when you pushed off to retreat your foot, being sideways, could not bear the weight of your body or you rolled your ankle as you said.


That's how I saw it too. He would have been fine if the push off on that foot was delayed a split second.  



Yokazuna514 said:


> don’t float/balance on your back leg for too long.


Bad habit from point sparring.  My opinion is that point sparring should be treated as if the point sparring rules don't exist for your opponent, so leaving a kick just hanging around would naturally put that leg at risk for being captured.  It delays the retreat,  It delays the reset, It invites the sweep.  If the rules allowed the grabbing of a kick then a lot would change.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Looks like your foot was not fully planted after your kick so when you pushed off to retreat your foot, being sideways, could not bear the weight of your body or you rolled your ankle as you said.
> 
> Two things you can do to avoid this in the future:
> 
> - retract your foot faster and plant it back on the floor.
> - don’t float/balance on your back leg for too long.
> 
> We gauge the speed of our kicks from the time it takes your foot to leave the floor to the time it takes to return.
> 
> I realize that you are point fighting and thus some strategies require you to do just that, float on the back leg but the risk you run is exactly what happened.  The body is going forward while the weakest part of your foot (being sideways) is pushing backwards.  When your weight is 50/50 and you have a stance wider than your shoulders then generally no problem.  It’s only when you try and change directions will this be a potential problem.
> 
> PS:  what was the final score of the bout ?



That's really helpful, thanks heaps mate. Yeah I'm actually not very used to point sparring (coming from Kyokushin sparring for 8 years), so it's a different style of moving and footwork, but yeah I totally get what you mean. And the fact he was moving in towards me meant I had to react quickly and probably didn't get a chance to get into a proper stance before retreating, hence the roll hey!

I'll have to work on drilling that when I train for my next one, appreciate the insights 

The final score was 4-2 my way. Ended up winning my next bout too and the state title which I was stoked about... I must have forgotten about my ankle for the rest of the day haha (adrenaline helped).


----------



## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> looks like you tried to move before you had your root set.  Like trying to push off on a foot that hasn't quite touch the ground securely.  When you pushed you didn't have a sure root to push against.
> 
> I'm going to assume that there are rules about grabbing kicks by the way your opponent was just letting those kicks hangout there.
> 
> That's how I saw it too. He would have been fine if the push off on that foot was delayed a split second.
> 
> 
> Bad habit from point sparring.  My opinion is that point sparring should be treated as if the point sparring rules don't exist for your opponent, so leaving a kick just hanging around would naturally put that leg at risk for being captured.  It delays the retreat,  It delays the reset, It invites the sweep.  If the rules allowed the grabbing of a kick then a lot would change.



Great advice, thanks so much for that.

Yeah AFAIK you can't grab the legs, but you I think you may be able to hook them briefly or grab to push them out, as long as it's not a long time you're grabbing. I'll have to revisit the rules... but yeah my opponent certainly thrusted his kicks out and left them hanging a bit hehe. Tended to be his default strategy, either out of not wanting me to get in close and keep me at distance or just out of not knowing what else to do. Trust me I wanted to grab the legs and throw haha.

Have watched it back a few times, so you mean that just in general I was too airborne/not rooted when I tried to retreat, thus not being properly planted before moving? Yeah I could see that..

I may work on being more rooted... my movement/footwork and quickness tend to be my strength hence why I move alot (obviously I now know the downside to that), but maybe I should work on being more grounded so my body can work both ways and know what it feels like to be more rooted.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> The final score was 4-2 my way. Ended up winning my next bout too and the state title which I was stoked about... I must have forgotten about my ankle for the rest of the day haha (adrenaline helped).


Well, congratulations. Sounds like you did well, even in a format you're not very familiar with.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Well, congratulations. Sounds like you did well, even in a format you're not very familiar with.


Ah cheers! Yeah it meant alot to me, I've chronicled in my other thread my journey through the tournaments and the lead up to this one. Big sordid story haha.. and probably no more tournaments this year anyways.


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Have watched it back a few times, so you mean that just in general I was too airborne/not rooted when I tried to retreat


No I don't believe you were 'too airborne'.  While it does look like the sequence was off when you pushed off your lead foot (foot not planted), I think the issue may have more to do with the 'way' you are retreating.  When you go backwards it does two things:

1)  It encourages your opponent to build momentum and confidence.
2)  It causes more stress to you as you approach the end of the tatami.

Perhaps in point fighting, this retreat strategy is accepted however I favour a more tai sabaki approach to retreating.   In other words, I move to the side (generally away from the power leg) which will cause your opponent to turn towards you and adjust.  It also allows you to remain in striking range instead of 'bouncing' in and out.  

There is nothing wrong with bouncing, by the way, but generally your feet should be parallel.  When you have your lead foot pointing to your opponent and your back foot pointing to the side or behind you, the contact surface of each foot may strike the ground at different times and cause you to roll your ankle.   My two cents.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> That's an overly simplistic understanding of what injury is. I managed just fine for weeks with a muscle torn 25% through in my forearm. But certain things - relatively small things - caused significant pain. I found out later that significant pain was me re-tearing any healing it had done. So, it wasn't healing. It wasn't getting better. What fixed it? Finding out (from a professional) what was actually wrong, how to avoid re-injury so it could heal, and finding the right exercises to help heal it (not just randomly continuing with what I normally did).
> 
> Your advice can work by accident, but it can also lead to worsening an injury.


Milkions of people " injure" themselves everyday playing sports or just walking about, only a very low % of those need a medical specialists, as the body is quite adapt at healing its self, of those a twisted ankle nust be a high % of the non requiring medIcal attention cases, you are dependent on the medical system you live with either wasting recourses or your own money.

That you were stupid enough to tear a muscle a quarter of the way thiugh and just as stupid to ignore the obvious trauma doesn't mean that every one with a minor injury should or requires to seek medical attention.

This is obviously a middle class,Good health insurance, first world affectation, the rest of the world doesnt run crying to a doctor over f next to nothing


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> No I don't believe you were 'too airborne'.  While it does look like the sequence was off when you pushed off your lead foot (foot not planted), I think the issue may have more to do with the 'way' you are retreating.  When you go backwards it does two things:
> 
> 1)  It encourages your opponent to build momentum and confidence.
> 2)  It causes more stress to you as you approach the end of the tatami.
> 
> Perhaps in point fighting, this retreat strategy is accepted however I favour a more tai sabaki approach to retreating.   In other words, I move to the side (generally away from the power leg) which will cause your opponent to turn towards you and adjust.  It also allows you to remain in striking range instead of 'bouncing' in and out.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with bouncing, by the way, but generally your feet should be parallel.  When you have your lead foot pointing to your opponent and your back foot pointing to the side or behind you, the contact surface of each foot may strike the ground at different times and cause you to roll your ankle.   My two cents.



Ah yeah I see what you mean. And yeah I'm also a big fan of tai sabaki and moving off to the side, angling etc, I do incorporate a bit of that but at times it feels faster to retreat and reevaluate. Especially when being charged, but I'd love to work on getting moving off to the side even faster. But yeah for sure there are downsides to constantly retreating, even for oneself mentally.

Ah will keep that in mind too, cheers


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> Milkions of people " injure" themselves everyday playing sports or just walking about, only a very low % of those need a medical specialists, as the body is quite adapt at healing its self, of those a twisted ankle nust be a high % of the non requiring medIcal attention cases, you are dependent on the medical system you live with either wasting recourses or your own money.
> 
> That you were stupid enough to tear a muscle a quarter of the way thiugh and just as stupid to ignore the obvious trauma doesn't mean that every one with a minor injury should or requires to seek medical attention.
> 
> This is obviously a middle class,Good health insurance, first world affectation, the rest of the world doesnt run crying to a doctor over f next to nothing



Lol.. okeydokey!


The body only heals itself if you let it. But some things do need attention, care and skill that you can't give it to heal.

Sometimes it's totally, 100%, absolutely okay to ask for help. Doesn't make one weak, stupid, or a crybaby.


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Lol.. okeydokey!
> 
> 
> The body only heals itself if you let it. But some things do need attention, care and skill that you can't give it to heal.
> 
> Sometimes it's totally, 100%, absolutely okay to ask for help. Doesn't make one weak, stupid, or a crybaby.


No the body generalky heals its self, its sort of a design function that got us frpthrough about 4 milkions years of twisted ankles, before then invented the ct scanner.

Have you actually been to the doctors yet, you seem to be in agreement with the get ut checked out cry babies, whilst not having the motivation to actually get of your bum and go


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah I see what you mean. And yeah I'm also a big fan of tai sabaki and moving off to the side, angling etc, I do incorporate a bit of that but at times it feels faster to retreat and reevaluate. Especially when being charged, but I'd love to work on getting moving off to the side even faster. But yeah for sure there are downsides to constantly retreating, even for oneself mentally.
> 
> Ah will keep that in mind too, cheers


What I am suggesting when you are in these types of matches and want to incorporate tai sabaki movement, you need to think of yourself like a matador.   A matador that retreats backwards will be run over.  A matador that dodges to the side remains close enough to plant the sword.   To do this effectively, you need to control the middle by keeping your hands up (elbows in front of your body).  When the charge comes, your hands/forearms can deflect the punch or kick as you move to their back side.  Your opponents momentum will put them in the perfect position for you to strike.  I have found this to work very well against aggressive opponents but my application is in Kyokushin sparring.  Food for thought.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> That's really helpful, thanks heaps mate. Yeah I'm actually not very used to point sparring (coming from Kyokushin sparring for 8 years), so it's a different style of moving and footwork, but yeah I totally get what you mean. And the fact he was moving in towards me meant I had to react quickly and probably didn't get a chance to get into a proper stance before retreating, hence the roll hey!
> 
> I'll have to work on drilling that when I train for my next one, appreciate the insights
> 
> The final score was 4-2 my way. Ended up winning my next bout too and the state title which I was stoked about... I must have forgotten about my ankle for the rest of the day haha (adrenaline helped).


Adrenaline always helps. At one tournament, I roundhouse kicked a guy who blocked it; I full power kicked the point of his elbow with my instep. It hurt a little but not much. Fought two more matches after that without thinking about it. After I changed and watched some classmates compete, it started to throb. When got home, I couldn’t take my shoe off without taking the laces completely out. The adrenaline wore off.

I went to urgent care the next day. The doctor looks at it and says “if that’s not broken, I don’t know what is.” It wasn’t broken, just severely bruised. I walked like Frankenstein for a good week or two. Andrenaline’s am interesting thing.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

_Simon_ said:


> And I've just gone back to look at the vid of the fight in which it happened, managed to find the exact frame where it happened haha, ouch.. right foot flexed and turned in, must have got caught on the mat...





_Simon_ said:


> Yeah he came in suddenly and I have no idea what happened, but I moved back and must have gotten caught. I think he actually stomped down onto my hip haha.
> 
> Posted the vid here anyway, we might all learn something about "how sports injuries occur" haha. The exact moment it happens is at 0:36s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I actually just watched it back in 0.25x speed (forgot you could do that on YouTube)... yeah ouch, looks like it just got caught or something as I moved back..


That hurts just to look at.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Milkions of people " injure" themselves everyday playing sports or just walking about, only a very low % of those need a medical specialists, as the body is quite adapt at healing its self, of those a twisted ankle nust be a high % of the non requiring medIcal attention cases, you are dependent on the medical system you live with either wasting recourses or your own money.
> 
> That you were stupid enough to tear a muscle a quarter of the way thiugh and just as stupid to ignore the obvious trauma doesn't mean that every one with a minor injury should or requires to seek medical attention.
> 
> This is obviously a middle class,Good health insurance, first world affectation, the rest of the world doesnt run crying to a doctor over f next to nothing


You entirely miss the point. Quite on purpose, I assume, based on your obvious trolling bits in there. Obvious troll is obvious.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Lol.. okeydokey!
> 
> 
> The body only heals itself if you let it. But some things do need attention, care and skill that you can't give it to heal.
> 
> Sometimes it's totally, 100%, absolutely okay to ask for help. Doesn't make one weak, stupid, or a crybaby.


It's okay. He's trolling. He occasionally does stuff like this to get an argument.


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> No the body generalky heals its self, its sort of a design function that got us frpthrough about 4 milkions years of twisted ankles, before then invented the ct scanner.
> 
> Have you actually been to the doctors yet, you seem to be in agreement with the get ut checked out cry babies, whilst not having the motivation to actually get of your bum and go



Cool, maybe I just haven't evolved properly! (Yeah and those folk probably got eaten by lions [emoji14] )

Nup heading in next week probably. Was going to see what some proper rest this week does to it.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> What I am suggesting when you are in these types of matches and want to incorporate tai sabaki movement, you need to think of yourself like a matador.   A matador that retreats backwards will be run over.  A matador that dodges to the side remains close enough to plant the sword.   To do this effectively, you need to control the middle by keeping your hands up (elbows in front of your body).  When the charge comes, your hands/forearms can deflect the punch or kick as you move to their back side.  Your opponents momentum will put them in the perfect position for you to strike.  I have found this to work very well against aggressive opponents but my application is in Kyokushin sparring.  Food for thought.



Cheers, great thoughts


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> It's okay. He's trolling. He occasionally does stuff like this to get an argument.


Yeeeep [emoji14]


----------



## _Simon_

Ah yeah just an update here (as I'm sure you've ALL been literally hanging on the edge of your seats to know the state of my life/ankle!), went to the docs few weeks ago and I had an x-ray done, have an ultrasound booked for next week (3 weeks from when I had the docs appointment, ultrasounds are so hard to book here haha, such long waits). Haven't heard back anything about the x-ray so I think the ultrasound will be more informative.

Ankle has gotten a bit better but it's still hurting and not right.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Good luck, man. Hope the ultrasound gives you and the docs some useful info.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Good luck, man. Hope the ultrasound gives you and the docs some useful info.


Thanks mate


----------



## JR 137

Yeah. It’s been a bit too long to simply be an ankle sprain IMO.

Then again, it could be what’s commonly called a “high ankle sprain” aka syndesmosis sprain. Those take quite a while to heal vs the traditional ankle sprain, aka anterior talofibular ligament sprain.

But watching the video, it’s not how a high ankle sprain usually occurs. High ankle sprain usually occurs with a foot somewhat planted and twisting around it. Stranger things have happened though. I’ve seen things and thought because the mechanism of injury, it would be a classic whatever injury, only to get proven completely wrong by imagining.

I remember one of my former team orthopedists giving me a very hard time about mis-diagnosing an ankle fracture that ended up needing surgery. The doc looked at me and said “how could you possibly mistake that? How long have you been doing this job?” He was a real a-hole. So I said “well, his mechanism of injury was (insert long jargon here) and he walked off the field on his own and didn’t complain of pain for 2 hours. I can show you the video if you’d like. And I’ve been doing this job for 10 years now, thank you.” Doc looked at us, shrugged his shoulders, and said “no idea how you broke that by doing what he said. No idea how you walked off on your own. No idea how it didn’t bother you that much for 2 hours. But I guess stranger things have happened.”

I really hated that doctor. But he’s honestly one of the best orthopedic surgeons there is. And he won’t hesitate to tell anyone who asks either


----------



## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah just an update here (as I'm sure you've ALL been literally hanging on the edge of your seats to know the state of my life/ankle!), went to the docs few weeks ago and I had an x-ray done, have an ultrasound booked for next week (3 weeks from when I had the docs appointment, ultrasounds are so hard to book here haha, such long waits). Haven't heard back anything about the x-ray so I think the ultrasound will be more informative.
> 
> Ankle has gotten a bit better but it's still hurting and not right.


Wish you the best of luck with that. It's been about 2 months right?


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Yeah. It’s been a bit too long to simply be an ankle sprain IMO.
> 
> Then again, it could be what’s commonly called a “high ankle sprain” aka syndesmosis sprain. Those take quite a while to heal vs the traditional ankle sprain, aka anterior talofibular ligament sprain.
> 
> But watching the video, it’s not how a high ankle sprain usually occurs. High ankle sprain usually occurs with a foot somewhat planted and twisting around it. Stranger things have happened though. I’ve seen things and thought because the mechanism of injury, it would be a classic whatever injury, only to get proven completely wrong by imagining.
> 
> I remember one of my former team orthopedists giving me a very hard time about mis-diagnosing an ankle fracture that ended up needing surgery. The doc looked at me and said “how could you possibly mistake that? How long have you been doing this job?” He was a real a-hole. So I said “well, his mechanism of injury was (insert long jargon here) and he walked off the field on his own and didn’t complain of pain for 2 hours. I can show you the video if you’d like. And I’ve been doing this job for 10 years now, thank you.” Doc looked at us, shrugged his shoulders, and said “no idea how you broke that by doing what he said. No idea how you walked off on your own. No idea how it didn’t bother you that much for 2 hours. But I guess stranger things have happened.”
> 
> I really hated that doctor. But he’s honestly one of the best orthopedic surgeons there is. And he won’t hesitate to tell anyone who asks either


Ah right, yeah you'll get them types .

I did read that sprains can awhile to heal, and I figure because I have to walk on it all the time it's not exactly going to be a quick heal. But will see what the ultrasound says. It's definitely getting better, just really really slowly, just still hurts and still doesn't feel like I've got full range of motion yet.


----------



## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> Wish you the best of luck with that. It's been about 2 months right?


Thanks heaps, yeah it's been 9 and a half weeks now


----------



## Xue Sheng

_Simon_ said:


> Lol.. okeydokey!
> 
> 
> The body only heals itself if you let it. But some things do need attention, care and skill that you can't give it to heal.
> 
> Sometimes it's totally, 100%, absolutely okay to ask for help. Doesn't make one weak, stupid, or a crybaby.



There's a lesson I learned the hard way


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ah right, yeah you'll get them types .
> 
> I did read that sprains can awhile to heal, and I figure because I have to walk on it all the time it's not exactly going to be a quick heal. But will see what the ultrasound says. It's definitely getting better, just really really slowly, just still hurts and still doesn't feel like I've got full range of motion yet.


If I had to guess (and that's all it is), you've managed to get a secondary injury. I do this all the time. Just as a primary injury is healing, I do more than I should, but am very careful with the primary injury. Of course, that compensation puts strain somewhere else. Usually, it's the opposing limb, but sometimes it's something in the support for the original joint.

But, as I said, that's just a guess. And based on some pretty weak evidence. And posted very early in the morning.

So, go with that, and cancel your imaging appointment!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Xue Sheng said:


> There's a lesson I learned the hard way


I'm still trying to learn it.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> If I had to guess (and that's all it is), you've managed to get a secondary injury. I do this all the time. Just as a primary injury is healing, I do more than I should, but am very careful with the primary injury. Of course, that compensation puts strain somewhere else. Usually, it's the opposing limb, but sometimes it's something in the support for the original joint.
> 
> But, as I said, that's just a guess. And based on some pretty weak evidence. And posted very early in the morning.
> 
> So, go with that, and cancel your imaging appointment!


Haha done! 

Yeah compensatory movements can be a shocker in that way, it's very possible!


----------



## Yokozuna514

Sorry to hear.  Feel better soon.


----------



## spidersam

Are you still in pain? My two cents, you’re gonna be doing martial arts the rest of your life right? Just stop for a week or two, let it totally heal. You’ll get back on the horse just a few days back into practice. Not worth dragging it on, even if it only hurts a little bit; it’ll only take longer to heal. It takes a lot to push through an injury and continue practice. It takes even more to know when you need to take a break and sit home.


----------



## _Simon_

spidersam said:


> Are you still in pain? My two cents, you’re gonna be doing martial arts the rest of your life right? Just stop for a week or two, let it totally heal. You’ll get back on the horse just a few days back into practice. Not worth dragging it on, even if it only hurts a little bit; it’ll only take longer to heal. It takes a lot to push through an injury and continue practice. It takes even more to know when you need to take a break and sit home.


Cheers spidersam, yeah totally agree. I have actually had quite a few weeks off, still going to help in kid's karate, but even so still had breaks from that where there was little to no training. As I'm still in between styles when I finished up my last trial I've been on break since really, but still in pain. It is definitely better than it was, but still not great. Ultrasound tomorrow though.

Just don't know how much rest I do unless I literally just stop walking on it. I may have to end up just stopping everything, will see. Crutches would be fun though!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Cheers spidersam, yeah totally agree. I have actually had quite a few weeks off, still going to help in kid's karate, but even so still had breaks from that where there was little to no training. As I'm still in between styles when I finished up my last trial I've been on break since really, but still in pain. It is definitely better than it was, but still not great. Ultrasound tomorrow though.
> 
> Just don't know how much rest I do unless I literally just stop walking on it. I may have to end up just stopping everything, will see. Crutches would be fun though!


Let us know what they find, Simon. Have they told you when you should expect to get results?


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Let us know what they find, Simon. Have they told you when you should expect to get results?


Will do, no am not sure how long ultrasound results take to get back to the doc, but I'll ask them today.


----------



## _Simon_

Just got back from my ultrasound.... He spent awhile looking at it, and eventually got a doctor to come in and look too. Ligament hasn't fully come away, but it's actually partially torn... there's also something else in there they're not sure what is, fluid or remnants of something maybe from previous injury. Can't remember which ligament is partially torn, maybe the Anterior talofibular ligament...

He said even though he's not allowed to give advice he recommended laying off training, just so it heals longterm..... am really quite devastated about that... 

Am seeing the doctor Friday to discuss the results...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Just got back from my ultrasound.... He spent awhile looking at it, and eventually got a doctor to come in and look too. Ligament hasn't fully come away, but it's actually partially torn... there's also something else in there they're not sure what is, fluid or remnants of something maybe from previous injury. Can't remember which ligament is partially torn, maybe the Anterior talofibular ligament...
> 
> He said even though he's not allowed to give advice he recommended laying off training, just so it heals longterm..... am really quite devastated about that...
> 
> Am seeing the doctor Friday to discuss the results...


Oof. Well, better to know what's needed. I've tried training through a tear - it has never gone well.


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Just got back from my ultrasound.... He spent awhile looking at it, and eventually got a doctor to come in and look too. Ligament hasn't fully come away, but it's actually partially torn... there's also something else in there they're not sure what is, fluid or remnants of something maybe from previous injury. Can't remember which ligament is partially torn, maybe the Anterior talofibular ligament...
> 
> He said even though he's not allowed to give advice he recommended laying off training, just so it heals longterm..... am really quite devastated about that...
> 
> Am seeing the doctor Friday to discuss the results...


he hasn't told you to stop"training," he has told you to stop jumping about on   it ?

use the opportunity to build your upper body strength, endurance and then you get some rehabilitation exercises to increase blood flow and build strenth


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> He said even though he's not allowed to give advice he recommended laying off training, just so it heals longterm..... am really quite devastated about that...


Sadder but wiser, Simon.   It could always be worse.  I just heard of an ikkyu at a dojo we are very friendly with tore their ACL and aggravated their MCL.  They were scheduled for their Shodan grading in less than 2 weeks.  They will be off for at least a year to rehabilitate the knee then they will have to get ready AGAIN for the Shodan grading.  Being in their mid 40's/early 50's, that is a serious injury that will not be easy to recover from and get back on the horse.

Good luck and take the time off to let it heal properly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Yokazuna514 said:


> Sadder but wiser, Simon.   It could always be worse.  I just heard of an ikkyu at a dojo we are very friendly with tore their ACL and aggravated their MCL.  They were scheduled for their Shodan grading in less than 2 weeks.  They will be off for at least a year to rehabilitate the knee then they will have to get ready AGAIN for the Shodan grading.  Being in their mid 40's/early 50's, that is a serious injury that will not be easy to recover from and get back on the horse.
> 
> Good luck and take the time off to let it heal properly.


Yeah, my brother now has a "zombie knee", after having a ligament replaced with one taken from a cadaver. That took a long time for him to recover from.


----------



## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> He said even though he's not allowed to give advice he recommended laying off training, just so it heals longterm..... am really quite devastated about that..


lol.. same thing I said earlier on.  I could have saved you money lol


----------



## _Simon_

Thanks guys, appreciate the encouragement. Was quite upset and still am a bit, training seems to be the only thing keeping me sane at the moment as it's a bit of a tough time anyway.. but I understand the need for rest.

I honestly thought I had been taking it really easy and not doing much training at all on it, being very careful, but now need to cut everything with impact that uses the ankle area. Thanks @jobo that's nice to hear actually, I'm definitely trying to see what opportunities it's opening me up to focus on rather than what doors it's closing.

My docs appointment got moved to today. Doc this morning said the same as the ultrasound person... so yeh definitely a partial tear, the x-ray came up ok but that thing they weren't sure what it was could be a bone fragment.. so am gonna have a CT scan (tomorrow morning managed to get in) which will give a better picture if there are any fractures the x-ray missed, and said I may have to see the Orthopedic fracture clinic, and depending on how that goes get a cast and then physiotherapy. But if it's a bone fragment then possible surgery.. so possibly a bit worse than initially thought... :s

Asked about whether it's best to get crutches and she said it's up to me really, but just to try keep weight off it until we know more info. If I've been walking on it all this time and it hasn't healed may have to consider crutches..


----------



## JowGaWolf

[


_Simon_ said:


> Thanks guys, appreciate the encouragement. Was quite upset and still am a bit, training seems to be the only thing keeping me sane at the moment as it's a bit of a tough time anyway.. but I understand the need for rest.
> 
> I honestly thought I had been taking it really easy and not doing much training at all on it, being very careful, but now need to cut everything with impact that uses the ankle area. Thanks @jobo that's nice to hear actually, I'm definitely trying to see what opportunities it's opening me up to focus on rather than what doors it's closing.
> 
> My docs appointment got moved to today. Doc this morning said the same as the ultrasound person... so yeh definitely a partial tear, the x-ray came up ok but that thing they weren't sure what it was could be a bone fragment.. so am gonna have a CT scan (tomorrow morning managed to get in) which will give a better picture if there are any fractures the x-ray missed, and said I may have to see the Orthopedic fracture clinic, and depending on how that goes get a cast and then physiotherapy. But if it's a bone fragment then possible surgery.. so possibly a bit worse than initially thought... :s
> 
> Asked about whether it's best to get crutches and she said it's up to me really, but just to try keep weight off it until we know more info. If I've been walking on it all this time and it hasn't healed may have to consider crutches..


Wow. they are really going all out with the testing..  Hopefully it's nothing that requires surgery.


----------



## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> [
> 
> Wow. they are really going all out with the testing..  Hopefully it's nothing that requires surgery.


Thanks mate.. yeah it's only really because of that strange big white spot they found. If it was just a partially torn ligament would probably just be rest it up, but he even showed me the white spot on the ultrasound screen and he was a little puzzled..

Strange that the x-ray didn't pick it up but a CT will give a better detailed view.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks guys, appreciate the encouragement. Was quite upset and still am a bit, training seems to be the only thing keeping me sane at the moment as it's a bit of a tough time anyway.. but I understand the need for rest.
> 
> I honestly thought I had been taking it really easy and not doing much training at all on it, being very careful, but now need to cut everything with impact that uses the ankle area. Thanks @jobo that's nice to hear actually, I'm definitely trying to see what opportunities it's opening me up to focus on rather than what doors it's closing.
> 
> My docs appointment got moved to today. Doc this morning said the same as the ultrasound person... so yeh definitely a partial tear, the x-ray came up ok but that thing they weren't sure what it was could be a bone fragment.. so am gonna have a CT scan (tomorrow morning managed to get in) which will give a better picture if there are any fractures the x-ray missed, and said I may have to see the Orthopedic fracture clinic, and depending on how that goes get a cast and then physiotherapy. But if it's a bone fragment then possible surgery.. so possibly a bit worse than initially thought... :s
> 
> Asked about whether it's best to get crutches and she said it's up to me really, but just to try keep weight off it until we know more info. If I've been walking on it all this time and it hasn't healed may have to consider crutches..


A few thoughts. Remember I have zero medical training, so just sharing what I think I know.

First, from what I understand, the surgery for removing a bone fragment isn't a big deal. It'll be sore, but shouldn't add any significant recovery time.

I can't remember if you do any teaching. If you do, this is a good time to focus on developing your teaching skills. When I had my knee surgery, I spent a lot of time at the dojo watching classes and coaching - first from the bench (literal bench for visitors), and later from the mats, but without doing any significant movement, myself. I learned a lot during that time, and came out the other side with better technique (not just teaching) than before the surgery.

If it was me, I'd opt for the crutches. Not because they are necessary, but because it would keep me from forgetting to take it easy on that ankle. You may be less absent-minded than me, so might not need them for that purpose.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks mate.. yeah it's only really because of that strange big white spot they found. If it was just a partially torn ligament would probably just be rest it up, but he even showed me the white spot on the ultrasound screen and he was a little puzzled..
> 
> Strange that the x-ray didn't pick it up but a CT will give a better detailed view.


I learned some time ago that x-ray reading is part art, part science. The detail is very hazy, and it's not uncommon for two experts to read the same x-ray differently.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks mate.. yeah it's only really because of that strange big white spot they found. If it was just a partially torn ligament would probably just be rest it up, but he even showed me the white spot on the ultrasound screen and he was a little puzzled..
> 
> Strange that the x-ray didn't pick it up but a CT will give a better detailed view.


CT scan is far more sophisticated. The picture looks like a 3D model of the structure. It’s the best view you can get without opening it up surgically.

I’ve never heard of ultrasound being used for imaging this way.

As far as crutches are concerned, walking boot instead IMO. There’s very, very few instances where crutches are preferred; this doesn’t seem like one. I could be wrong though.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I learned some time ago that x-ray reading is part art, part science. The detail is very hazy, and it's not uncommon for two experts to read the same x-ray differently.


MRI is as well. It’s better than X-Ray but I’ve seen several surgeons disagree with the physician who writes the MRI reports. It really depends on the specific injury. Some are clear cut, others aren’t.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> MRI is as well. It’s better than X-Ray but I’ve seen several surgeons disagree with the physician who writes the MRI reports. It really depends on the specific injury. Some are clear cut, others aren’t.


When I had the MRI on my arm, they gave me the images on DVD. It was really fascinating to look at. Nothing in there looked a bit like a torn muscle, to me. A few things looked vaguely like bones, but that's about all I could figure out.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> When I had the MRI on my arm, they gave me the images on DVD. It was really fascinating to look at. Nothing in there looked a bit like a torn muscle, to me. A few things looked vaguely like bones, but that's about all I could figure out.


Yeah, it’s not like looking at a nice colorful anatomy textbook. And when you look at an MRI, it’s like looking at the anatomy if you were to cut it on a meat slicer. You just have to know what angle you’re looking from and how deep you are. I got pretty good at looking at them, but it takes a while. You need someone to point things out when you first start seeing them. After you’ve seen a bunch of them with someone pointing out what to look for and know what to look for yourself it becomes relatively easy.

They’re a lot like ultrasound pictures in that way. You see a bunch of gray areas, then someone says “there’s the baby’s eyes, nose, mouth” etc. then you wonder how you didn’t see it all along. If you don’t know what you’re looking for specifically, you won’t see it.

Looking at musculature is tough. I’ve always looked at joints and looked for things like ligaments, cartilage, bones, etc. 

If you’ve still got it, look for swelling, as that’ll be present wherever there’s an injury. Swelling will show up as brightish white spots. Then again it could be difficult to differentiate it from fat which is basically the same color. I could explain the difference, but I’d have to point it out which isn’t going to work here. And not being an expert, I could mess it up too.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> A few thoughts. Remember I have zero medical training, so just sharing what I think I know.
> 
> First, from what I understand, the surgery for removing a bone fragment isn't a big deal. It'll be sore, but shouldn't add any significant recovery time.
> 
> I can't remember if you do any teaching. If you do, this is a good time to focus on developing your teaching skills. When I had my knee surgery, I spent a lot of time at the dojo watching classes and coaching - first from the bench (literal bench for visitors), and later from the mats, but without doing any significant movement, myself. I learned a lot during that time, and came out the other side with better technique (not just teaching) than before the surgery.
> 
> If it was me, I'd opt for the crutches. Not because they are necessary, but because it would keep me from forgetting to take it easy on that ankle. You may be less absent-minded than me, so might not need them for that purpose.



Ah that's good about the surgery, doesn't seem like a massive procedure.

I've only been assisting in the kid's class in my old dojo. It's a highlight of my week, but it might be a bit tricky to help with this, just as we all stand at the front and do all the techniques along with them, and we then go around and help anyone that needs help. Will see though...

Yeah crutches make sense, but will wait until the CT results come in. This morning at the CT he said about 1-2 weeks or so.. I'll keep it strapped for now.



gpseymour said:


> I learned some time ago that x-ray reading is part art, part science. The detail is very hazy, and it's not uncommon for two experts to read the same x-ray differently.



Ah right hehe, it would be a tricky picture to interpret I'd imagine!


----------



## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> CT scan is far more sophisticated. The picture looks like a 3D model of the structure. It’s the best view you can get without opening it up surgically.
> 
> I’ve never heard of ultrasound being used for imaging this way.
> 
> As far as crutches are concerned, walking boot instead IMO. There’s very, very few instances where crutches are preferred; this doesn’t seem like one. I could be wrong though.



Yeah I didn't actually think they did ultrasounds for the ankle area just how awkward it is there, but I could see alot pretty clearly on the screen. It's a boy by the way! XD

Yeah the boot makes sense. Will wait to see results if I need to keep the area really immobile. I don't mind crutches though, I found them quite fun when I had them many years ago hehe.


----------



## _Simon_

Mmmm..... had a call saying the results were already in from the CT scan, that was fast! But the plot thickens...

So yeh CT scan also showed a small avulsion fracture at the top of the foot in between two other bits and bone fragment :s. So basically... have to get a cast put on asap. Then physiotherapy after a little while with that on. What an interesting turn of events...

I also asked her if it would need a surgical procedure to remove the bone fragment but she wouldn't think it would be needed.

I'm currently not working anyway so that's not an issue, but was currently looking for work haha, may have to find a very very stationary job if it exists haha, any suggestions? Toll booth operator? A very specific type of street performer? XD

And... was the gold medal at the tournament and everything that it symbolized and meant to me worth all this?

........... abso-freakin-lutely 

(I really needed some perspective right now, so I'm feeling at peace with alot of it)

That being said, I'm going to go do chinups and dips now. This time'll also give me a chance to work on my left leg pistol squats ;D

Ah here was the ct result paper


----------



## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Mmmm..... had a call saying the results were already in from the CT scan, that was fast! But the plot thickens...
> 
> So yeh CT scan also showed a small avulsion fracture at the top of the foot in between two other bits and bone fragment :s. So basically... have to get a cast put on asap. Then physiotherapy after a little while with that on. What an interesting turn of events...
> 
> I also asked her if it would need a surgical procedure to remove the bone fragment but she wouldn't think it would be needed.
> 
> I'm currently not working anyway so that's not an issue, but was currently looking for work haha, may have to find a very very stationary job if it exists haha, any suggestions? Toll booth operator? A very specific type of street performer? XD
> 
> And... was the gold medal at the tournament and everything that it symbolized and meant to me worth all this?
> 
> ........... abso-freakin-lutely
> 
> (I really needed some perspective right now, so I'm feeling at peace with alot of it)
> 
> That being said, I'm going to go do chinups and dips now. This time'll also give me a chance to work on my left leg pistol squats ;D
> 
> Ah here was the ct result paper


Osu, good news bad news scenario but glad you had it checked out.  Now you know the answer.   R&R is the best route to a speedy recovery.   Good luck and keep us posted on the job search  .


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Mmmm..... had a call saying the results were already in from the CT scan, that was fast! But the plot thickens...
> 
> So yeh CT scan also showed a small avulsion fracture at the top of the foot in between two other bits and bone fragment :s. So basically... have to get a cast put on asap. Then physiotherapy after a little while with that on. What an interesting turn of events...
> 
> I also asked her if it would need a surgical procedure to remove the bone fragment but she wouldn't think it would be needed.
> 
> I'm currently not working anyway so that's not an issue, but was currently looking for work haha, may have to find a very very stationary job if it exists haha, any suggestions? Toll booth operator? A very specific type of street performer? XD
> 
> And... was the gold medal at the tournament and everything that it symbolized and meant to me worth all this?
> 
> ........... abso-freakin-lutely
> 
> (I really needed some perspective right now, so I'm feeling at peace with alot of it)
> 
> That being said, I'm going to go do chinups and dips now. This time'll also give me a chance to work on my left leg pistol squats ;D
> 
> Ah here was the ct result paper


Not the best news, but no surgery. Keep that good attitude and figure out what you can work on while you recover.


----------



## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, good news bad news scenario but glad you had it checked out.  Now you know the answer.   R&R is the best route to a speedy recovery.   Good luck and keep us posted on the job search  .


Yeah for sure it was good that I had it checked out.. thanks ;D. Today am actually going to watch/support a senior grading at my old Kyokushin club (two people going for nidan, two for shodan), just to fuel my inspiration for persevering in this time .





gpseymour said:


> Not the best news, but no surgery. Keep that good attitude and figure out what you can work on while you recover.


Yeah I will for sure, well I'll try my best. Thank you. I can still do hand techniques right? Hehe


----------



## _Simon_

So, yet another twist (feeling like a dramatic soap opera now!)...

I'll skippity skip through. Have been waiting around for the hospital to contact me. Didn't hear back so went back to docs, she put through urgent referral. Got a letter to make appointment, I called, soonest appointment was 4 weeks, which was too long a wait.

Went to emergency as the doc said I need a cast on, and if I couldn't get in soon to just go to emergency. Did that tonight.

VERY busy in emergency... after a 4 hour wait, I chatted with the doc. He went to discuss with some orthopedic doctors, and he basically told me that I won't need a cast at all.

!

He said perhaps when I first got the injury I may have, but at this point he thinks it's definitely healed, and that I should be using it as much as possible. Working on range of motion and that I should do physio. Further to that, he called back later and the orthopedic docs he spoke to (after looking at my CT scan results again) weren't even convinced that I HAD a fracture.

...

Needless to say... we were at first quite disenchanted... and p***ed off.. The initial doctor really said that I'd definitely need a cast, and that I did indeed have a fracture, yet this doctor was saying that's not the case and that I should have been working on rehabbing it.

After asking why my pain had been getting worse, the doc at the hospital even said that it would have made the pain worse by not using the foot at all, that keeping off it was making it worse.

So even though we were quite angry as I could have been rehabbing it months ago probably, I feel relieved. It means I can start moving again, get back into working, and also start training properly again, which is awesome. It's just been an incredibly challenging and painful few months.. and I had already mentally prepared myself that I would have another 6 weeks or so of being at home, and further to that not being able to drive.

So will call a physio tomorrow and go from there. Isn't the first time there's been a miscommunication or misinformation, but everyone is only going off what they know and doing their best, so will try to move forward and slowly ease into rehabbing.

*exhausted*


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> So, yet another twist (feeling like a dramatic soap opera now!)...
> 
> I'll skippity skip through. Have been waiting around for the hospital to contact me. Didn't hear back so went back to docs, she put through urgent referral. Got a letter to make appointment, I called, soonest appointment was 4 weeks, which was too long a wait.
> 
> Went to emergency as the doc said I need a cast on, and if I couldn't get in soon to just go to emergency. Did that tonight.
> 
> VERY busy in emergency... after a 4 hour wait, I chatted with the doc. He went to discuss with some orthopedic doctors, and he basically told me that I won't need a cast at all.
> 
> !
> 
> He said perhaps when I first got the injury I may have, but at this point he thinks it's definitely healed, and that I should be using it as much as possible. Working on range of motion and that I should do physio. Further to that, he called back later and the orthopedic docs he spoke to (after looking at my CT scan results again) weren't even convinced that I HAD a fracture.
> 
> ...
> 
> Needless to say... we were at first quite disenchanted... and p***ed off.. The initial doctor really said that I'd definitely need a cast, and that I did indeed have a fracture, yet this doctor was saying that's not the case and that I should have been working on rehabbing it.
> 
> After asking why my pain had been getting worse, the doc at the hospital even said that it would have made the pain worse by not using the foot at all, that keeping off it was making it worse.
> 
> So even though we were quite angry as I could have been rehabbing it months ago probably, I feel relieved. It means I can start moving again, get back into working, and also start training properly again, which is awesome. It's just been an incredibly challenging and painful few months.. and I had already mentally prepared myself that I would have another 6 weeks or so of being at home, and further to that not being able to drive.
> 
> So will call a physio tomorrow and go from there. Isn't the first time there's been a miscommunication or misinformation, but everyone is only going off what they know and doing their best, so will try to move forward and slowly ease into rehabbing.
> 
> *exhausted*


I don't remember - was the other doc an orthoped? You've got vastly conflicting opinions on this, and I tend to go with the opinion of the specialist.


----------



## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I don't remember - was the other doc an orthoped? You've got vastly conflicting opinions on this, and I tend to go with the opinion of the specialist.


My original doc who I saw about this (and who got me to get scans etc) was a GP, not a specialist. So I'm trusting the hospital specialists at this stage.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> My original doc who I saw about this (and who got me to get scans etc) was a GP, not a specialist. So I'm trusting the hospital specialists at this stage.


That would be my default.


----------



## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> My original doc who I saw about this (and who got me to get scans etc) was a GP, not a specialist. So I'm trusting the hospital specialists at this stage.


Yeah. GPs are jack of all trade, master of none for the most part. Runny nose, cough, etc., go see the GP and take their advice. Other stuff, see the specialist and take their advice.

It’s like a chef at the diner. Sure, he may be able to cook anything, but he doesn’t know and do steak like the guy at a steakhouse.


----------



## Dirty Dog

_Simon_ said:


> My original doc who I saw about this (and who got me to get scans etc) was a GP, not a specialist. So I'm trusting the hospital specialists at this stage.



Did the GP refer you to an orthopod?

The GP was no doubt making recommendations based off the radiologists report from the CT. And having read a few of them, I can assure you that they're often equivocal. There's lots of "possible this" and "could be that" and "maybe any of these 5 things" in them. One of my favorites is when they say things like "recommend clinical correlation", like "Really? We should look at the patient? Holy crap, what an idea! That never occured to us!" 

My all time favorite was a trauma patient. Guy was a crack head, drunk, hit someone head on. Report came back saying "patient has a structure in the pelvis that resembles a uterus. Question transgender surgery vs true hermaphrodism." We went with retroperitoneal hematoma instead, and sent him to the OR.

The rule of thumb is to assume the worst and go from that. In your case, that would mean that if the radiologist said you might have an avulsion fracture (which, as I recall, is what I said when you first talked about this injury) they would assume that you DO have one, and should then refer you to ortho. An orthopedist might well look at the scan and say "nope, it's not an avulsion" and take a different route. But that's why we have specialists.

Many of are convinced that the Coat of Arms for the College of Radiologists is emblazoned "A weasel, eating a waffle, in a hedge, with a bag of money."


----------



## _Simon_

Dirty Dog said:


> Did the GP refer you to an orthopod?
> 
> The GP was no doubt making recommendations based off the radiologists report from the CT. And having read a few of them, I can assure you that they're often equivocal. There's lots of "possible this" and "could be that" and "maybe any of these 5 things" in them. One of my favorites is when they say things like "recommend clinical correlation", like "Really? We should look at the patient? Holy crap, what an idea! That never occured to us!"
> 
> My all time favorite was a trauma patient. Guy was a crack head, drunk, hit someone head on. Report came back saying "patient has a structure in the pelvis that resembles a uterus. Question transgender surgery vs true hermaphrodism." We went with retroperitoneal hematoma instead, and sent him to the OR.
> 
> The rule of thumb is to assume the worst and go from that. In your case, that would mean that if the radiologist said you might have an avulsion fracture (which, as I recall, is what I said when you first talked about this injury) they would assume that you DO have one, and should then refer you to ortho. An orthopedist might well look at the scan and say "nope, it's not an avulsion" and take a different route. But that's why we have specialists.
> 
> Many of are convinced that the Coat of Arms for the College of Radiologists is emblazoned "A weasel, eating a waffle, in a hedge, with a bag of money."



Yeah that's what the GP put in for the urgent referral, to see the ortho guys and definitely get a cast on. But at the hospital they were saying that I really needed to start moving it and walking on it, as it's definitely healed (which I'm a little sketchy about.. they looked at the CT which was taken a month ago, but they'd only know if it has healed for sure from another CT taken right now...). But he was saying with a fair confidence that I need to be using it much more, and I felt I could trust that, so I'm gonna get some physio over the next weeks. I've been trying to move it today and put little amounts of weight on it as I walk (still with crutches).

And haha wow.. yeah I can imagine. When I was at emergency a year and a bit ago (on 5 different occasions due to the severity of the pain), they went through the whole gamut of "it's this it's that". But that's the thing they've gotta consider all options (which they actually didn't get it right anyway in the end).

Am wondering whether it's worth still keeping the ortho appointment for 4 weeks time anyway... Might keep it and if I'm better by then just cancel it closer to the date.


----------



## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> the doc at the hospital even said that it would have made the pain worse by not using the foot at all, that keeping off it was making it worse.


I have never had a doctor tell me this. Staying off the foot makes the pain worse?  So what about the pain you were feeling when you were walking around on it, and it got bad enough to go see the doctor?

Sometimes I wonder about doctors.  I went to one because of really bad back pains. I literally had trouble walking and the pain would bring me to my knees. The doctor was a specialist and he told me that I had a degenerative spine disease and that's what was causing my pain.  He said I would need surgery in order to provide relief.  One night my back got so bad that I slept on the floor and woke up feeling better, so I bought a new mattress and the back pain went away.  Turns out my mattress was the cause of the pain.

Sometimes I think doctors get into their little boxes so much that it doesn't occur to them that something else may be going on other than what's in their specialty knowledge


----------



## Dirty Dog

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's what the GP put in for the urgent referral, to see the ortho guys and definitely get a cast on. But at the hospital they were saying that I really needed to start moving it and walking on it, as it's definitely healed (which I'm a little sketchy about.. they looked at the CT which was taken a month ago, but they'd only know if it has healed for sure from another CT taken right now...). But he was saying with a fair confidence that I need to be using it much more, and I felt I could trust that, so I'm gonna get some physio over the next weeks. I've been trying to move it today and put little amounts of weight on it as I walk (still with crutches).



You don't really need a repeat CT. How long it takes to heal isn't really all that variable. Especially if they're saying it wasn't really a fracture to being with.



> Am wondering whether it's worth still keeping the ortho appointment for 4 weeks time anyway... Might keep it and if I'm better by then just cancel it closer to the date.



If it's still not back to baseline, you should keep it.


----------



## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> I have never had a doctor tell me this. Staying off the foot makes the pain worse?  So what about the pain you were feeling when you were walking around on it, and it got bad enough to go see the doctor?
> 
> Sometimes I wonder about doctors.  I went to one because of really bad back pains. I literally had trouble walking and the pain would bring me to my knees. The doctor was a specialist and he told me that I had a degenerative spine disease and that's what was causing my pain.  He said I would need surgery in order to provide relief.  One night my back got so bad that I slept on the floor and woke up feeling better, so I bought a new mattress and the back pain went away.  Turns out my mattress was the cause of the pain.
> 
> Sometimes I think doctors get into their little boxes so much that it doesn't occur to them that something else may be going on other than what's in their specialty knowledge



I think it was a matter of that my foot had already pretty much healed, but I was still keeping it motionless for too long after. So it'll just stiffen up and get more painful as it needed rehab. I think initially I needed to keep off it, but after a certain amount of time it's a bit detrimental. Of which, I was not aware that it was at that point and now okay to start working it more. So it's really unfortunate.. but hopefully now I can get some relief.

Ah wow... yeah it's a tricky one. I'm sure there are many misdiagnoses (like I'vealready experienced before), but there are so many variables to take into account it's hard to pinpoint it just with one modality I reckon. In my case with the pelvic pain issues, all of their diagnoses were what they were trained in, so it's all they knew. There was no collaboration between the hospital and pelvic pain clinics so there was just no scope for looking outside the box.


----------



## _Simon_

Dirty Dog said:


> You don't really need a repeat CT. How long it takes to heal isn't really all that variable. Especially if they're saying it wasn't really a fracture to being with.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's still not back to baseline, you should keep it.



Ah okay fair enough. Yeah they weren't 100% about the fracture. Definitely a partially torn ligament, but who knows if that's fully healed..

I'll still keep the appointment (it's actually in their physiotherapy clinic at the hospital, which I'm not sure if the osteo specialists are a part of...)


----------



## Dirty Dog

JowGaWolf said:


> I have never had a doctor tell me this. Staying off the foot makes the pain worse?



Sure it does. Take a perfectly fine joint and immobilize it for just a few hours. See how stiff it can get? Now immobilize it for weeks. Ouchy.
That's why casts and such are removed as early as possible. The bone is _*not*_ fully healed, but it's healed enough to start using it again.


----------



## _Simon_

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure it does. Take a perfectly fine joint and immobilize it for just a few hours. See how stiff it can get? Now immobilize it for weeks. Ouchy.
> That's why casts and such are removed as early as possible. The bone is _*not*_ fully healed, but it's healed enough to start using it again.



Ahhh, that's good to know. Just flexing and extending my foot now and it trembles like crazy XD (about 4 weeks on crutches). Just gotta make sure to not overdo it.

Ah and my physio appointment is with a karate-ka who I used to train with many years ago! He's still with my old style I used to train in. So he's the perfect person for a martial arts related injury, looking forward to it


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## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> Just flexing and extending my foot now and it trembles like crazy


If you can, massage your foot before you start exercising it.  It doesn't have to be a rough massage, just enough to help get blood flowing in that area.


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## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> If you can, massage your foot before you start exercising it.  It doesn't have to be a rough massage, just enough to help get blood flowing in that area.


Great idea, cheers mate. Also been massaging the calf as well. Range of motion is shocking, it all feels so stiff...


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> I think it was a matter of that my foot had already pretty much healed, but I was still keeping it motionless for too long after. So it'll just stiffen up and get more painful as it needed rehab. I think initially I needed to keep off it, but after a certain amount of time it's a bit detrimental. Of which, I was not aware that it was at that point and now okay to start working it more. So it's really unfortunate.. but hopefully now I can get some relief.
> 
> Ah wow... yeah it's a tricky one. I'm sure there are many misdiagnoses (like I'vealready experienced before), but there are so many variables to take into account it's hard to pinpoint it just with one modality I reckon. In my case with the pelvic pain issues, all of their diagnoses were what they were trained in, so it's all they knew. There was no collaboration between the hospital and pelvic pain clinics so there was just no scope for looking outside the box.


I honestly don't know which is more frustrating your misdiagnosis or the one I had a few years ago, where a GP at urgent care failed to diagnose a break. He had me walking on it (no crutches or anything) and it kept getting worse. Two weeks walking on it, through airports, carrying luggage, etc., then they put me on crutches and referred to an ortho. Two weeks on crutches, the ortho takes one look at the X-ray, grabs my ankle right where it hurt, and I said, "Ow."

"Yep, that's broken." Shortest doctor visit I've ever had.


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Ah okay fair enough. Yeah they weren't 100% about the fracture. Definitely a partially torn ligament, but who knows if that's fully healed..
> 
> I'll still keep the appointment (it's actually in their physiotherapy clinic at the hospital, which I'm not sure if the osteo specialists are a part of...)


From what my PT told me when I was rehabbing a deeply torn muscle, part of the healing requires some irritation of the tissue. I don't understand it very well (I keep meaning to spend some time researching that), but my tear healed much faster once I was using it the right way a few times a week.


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> Great idea, cheers mate. Also been massaging the calf as well. Range of motion is shocking, it all feels so stiff...


I hadn't had an interaction with a PT much until a couple of years ago. Now, if an injury puts something out of use for a bit, I go running to my PT to find out what I can safely do while not using that limb normally, and what I should do to restore ROM when I'm cleared.


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> I honestly don't know which is more frustrating your misdiagnosis or the one I had a few years ago, where a GP at urgent care failed to diagnose a break. He had me walking on it (no crutches or anything) and it kept getting worse. Two weeks walking on it, through airports, carrying luggage, etc., then they put me on crutches and referred to an ortho. Two weeks on crutches, the ortho takes one look at the X-ray, grabs my ankle right where it hurt, and I said, "Ow."
> 
> "Yep, that's broken." Shortest doctor visit I've ever had.



Oh wow that'd be incredibly frustrating..

And yeah I still at this stage have no idea if I even had or still have a fracture, if it's healed, if my ligament has healed... Just gonna see how physio goes..



gpseymour said:


> From what my PT told me when I was rehabbing a deeply torn muscle, part of the healing requires some irritation of the tissue. I don't understand it very well (I keep meaning to spend some time researching that), but my tear healed much faster once I was using it the right way a few times a week.



Ah that sounds interesting.. I guess when the muscle etc is reminded of its function it can repair a bit quicker..? Without overdoing it obviously..



gpseymour said:


> I hadn't had an interaction with a PT much until a couple of years ago. Now, if an injury puts something out of use for a bit, I go running to my PT to find out what I can safely do while not using that limb normally, and what I should do to restore ROM when I'm cleared.



Yeah for sure, and their specialty is in rehabilitating so they'd understand what it takes to get back to normal function. So I'm looking forward to getting physio and moving on. It's just been too long now... I'm thoroughly done haha...


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> From what my PT told me when I was rehabbing a deeply torn muscle, part of the healing requires some irritation of the tissue. I don't understand it very well (I keep meaning to spend some time researching that), but my tear healed much faster once I was using it the right way a few times a week.


Several different reasons why using it will speed up the process...

Disuse atrophy sets in. If muscles aren’t being used, they break down. Like a bodybuilder stopping lifting, he loses muscle mass, or if someone’s arm is in a cast guard while, that arm will be smaller. Use it or lose it philosophy. Bone density too, only not as much; and weight bearing bones not carrying weight will have the effect more, obviously. Bone density is probably the lowest on the list though. 

Nerve function. The longer something’s not being used, the less efficient nerve function. The chemical mediators in the inflammatory process also block some nerve function, so getting those out helps.

Scar tissue and tissue remodeling. The body heals tissues by laying down scar tissue (collagen 1). The body overdoes it, and scar tissue is thick, inelastic, and the fibers are in a random pattern. Proper stress on the structure speeds up turning the scar tissue (collagen 1) into functional tissue (collagen 3). The fibers line up to the stress lines and become appropriately elastic, and turn into the correct tissue faster.

Having done PT for your bicep (that’s the muscle you tore, correct?), the PTs probably did friction/cross friction massage at some point. Rubbing the hell out of it and irritating it pretty good. It does several things - most notably helps break up the excess scar tissue, and increases local blood flow to bring nutrients in and get rid of garbage.

I’ve found of the most important things to do in an ankle injury rehab is balance work. Forcing the nerves to fire properly helps immediately and for the long term. Studies have shown the quicker the patient starts (appropriate) balance work in ankle injuries, the less susceptible to reinjury later on. Sometimes clinicians focus too much on ROM and strengthening early on; I did too until I read the research and started implementing it more. My athletes typically got better and game-ready faster and stayed injury free longer. Not drastically, but definitely more than enough to say so.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Scar tissue and tissue remodeling. The body heals tissues by laying down scar tissue (collagen 1). The body overdoes it, and scar tissue is thick, inelastic, and the fibers are in a random pattern. Proper stress on the structure speeds up turning the scar tissue (collagen 1) into functional tissue (collagen 3). The fibers line up to the stress lines and become appropriately elastic, and turn into the correct tissue faster.


This was the part the PT discussed. Thanks for filling in the blanks in my memory!

EDIT: I forgot to reply to the other part - it was a forearm muscle, but yes they did that hard, painful massage with something that looked like a bit out of the scrap bin in my workshop. It worked wonders, and I hated it.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> This was the part the PT discussed. Thanks for filling in the blanks in my memory!
> 
> EDIT: I forgot to reply to the other part - it was a forearm muscle, but yes they did that hard, painful massage with something that looked like a bit out of the scrap bin in my workshop. It worked wonders, and I hated it.


I used to use the eraser end of a fat pencil. It worked just as well as anything fancy, and kept it low-class like myself 

My mentor in college was very big on cross-friction massage. I think he enjoyed the torture as much as the results. Actually, I’m pretty sure he enjoyed the torture more than anything else. Because I did it so much as an undergrad, I became the go-to cross-friction guy in every training room I subsequently worked in. That and “milking massage” which is fancy for squeezing the swelling out of the joint. Most of my colleagues came to me to do that to their athletes too. They always tried, usually failed, and then said “JR will get it out.” 

My athletes hated both of those, but they figured out the method to my madness when I was done.


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> So, yet another twist (feeling like a dramatic soap opera now!)...
> 
> I'll skippity skip through. Have been waiting around for the hospital to contact me. Didn't hear back so went back to docs, she put through urgent referral. Got a letter to make appointment, I called, soonest appointment was 4 weeks, which was too long a wait.
> 
> Went to emergency as the doc said I need a cast on, and if I couldn't get in soon to just go to emergency. Did that tonight.
> 
> VERY busy in emergency... after a 4 hour wait, I chatted with the doc. He went to discuss with some orthopedic doctors, and he basically told me that I won't need a cast at all.
> 
> !
> 
> He said perhaps when I first got the injury I may have, but at this point he thinks it's definitely healed, and that I should be using it as much as possible. Working on range of motion and that I should do physio. Further to that, he called back later and the orthopedic docs he spoke to (after looking at my CT scan results again) weren't even convinced that I HAD a fracture.
> 
> ...
> 
> Needless to say... we were at first quite disenchanted... and p***ed off.. The initial doctor really said that I'd definitely need a cast, and that I did indeed have a fracture, yet this doctor was saying that's not the case and that I should have been working on rehabbing it.
> 
> After asking why my pain had been getting worse, the doc at the hospital even said that it would have made the pain worse by not using the foot at all, that keeping off it was making it worse.
> 
> So even though we were quite angry as I could have been rehabbing it months ago probably, I feel relieved. It means I can start moving again, get back into working, and also start training properly again, which is awesome. It's just been an incredibly challenging and painful few months.. and I had already mentally prepared myself that I would have another 6 weeks or so of being at home, and further to that not being able to drive.
> 
> So will call a physio tomorrow and go from there. Isn't the first time there's been a miscommunication or misinformation, but everyone is only going off what they know and doing their best, so will try to move forward and slowly ease into rehabbing.
> 
> *exhausted*


isn't that what I told you right at the begining of this thread,  the longer you avoid the pain the worst it will get,,,work the flamming thing //+


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> isn't that what I told you right at the begining of this thread,  the longer you avoid the pain the worst it will get,,,work the flamming thing //+


The right answer, but mostly for the wrong reasons.


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## _Simon_

jobo said:


> isn't that what I told you right at the begining of this thread,  the longer you avoid the pain the worst it will get,,,work the flamming thing //+


Hehe.. it was first assumed that I had a fracture, in which case it's not the best idea to work it or put weight on it. That sucker needs to heal! So it wouldn't have been the best idea at the start.

Now we're at the stage where I either never had a fracture or it healed up, and I can start working it again. (I'm still confused as to what's going on if I'm honest...)

If it was only the partially torn ligament I'm not sure what the recommended course of action would have been.


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe.. it was first assumed that I had a fracture, in which case it's not the best idea to work it or put weight on it. That sucker needs to heal! So it wouldn't have been the best idea at the start.
> 
> Now we're at the stage where I either never had a fracture or it healed up, and I can start working it again. (I'm still confused as to what's going on if I'm honest...)
> 
> If it was only the partially torn ligament I'm not sure what the recommended course of action would have been.


by the time we had our chat, it was always going to be at least partly healed, if you had one at all 
the treatment for a partially torn ligament, ? plenty of movement to get good blood flow and stop the joint from seizing up and having muscle wastages,


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> I’ve found of the most important things to do in an ankle injury rehab is balance work. Forcing the nerves to fire properly helps immediately and for the long term. Studies have shown the quicker the patient starts (appropriate) balance work in ankle injuries, the less susceptible to reinjury later on. Sometimes clinicians focus too much on ROM and strengthening early on; I did too until I read the research and started implementing it more. My athletes typically got better and game-ready faster and stayed injury free longer. Not drastically, but definitely more than enough to say so.



Ah right that's super helpful, yeah will see what the physio gets me working on, but will definitely incorporate some balance work. How about 100 left leg mae geris hehe


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## _Simon_

jobo said:


> by the time we had our chat, it was always going to be at least partly healed, if you had one at all
> the treatment for a partially torn ligament, ? plenty of movement to get good blood flow and stop the joint from seizing up and having muscle wastages,



Yeah true, I just didn't know the extent of the injury and the appropriate way forward. Doc tells me it's a fracture (which she did) I'm going to trust them (which from now I'll try to get a second opinion or specialist opinion). Will now be rehabbing it (physio starts tomorrow) and putting more weight on it. Cheers


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## _Simon_

Had first physio session today (had to be moved from yesterday), it went so, so well . Have an incredibly knowledgable physio, he basically told me to throw my crutches away haha! He said that absolutely my fracture would have healed, and that for sure he would have had me doing physio ages ago. He also said about docs not always knowing much about the muscular side of things so often just seeing something and putting them in a cast.

He tested out my ligament/tendon strength and he was really happy with them. My ROM is lacking obviously. So just need to work on getting more range of motion, strength and stability. He's really excited to work with me and he's gonna tailor our work together in a martial-arts based way to get me back to training, so even throwing kicks etc. I am so darn looking forward to it...

And I can walk again . Such a weird feeling...

Have got some exercises to do every day (include a balance/proprioception one) and seeing him next week. So happy and incredibly relieved...


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## Gerry Seymour

Excellent. Hope you're at full power again soon, Simon!


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## Yokozuna514

_Simon_ said:


> Had first physio session today (had to be moved from yesterday), it went so, so well . Have an incredibly knowledgable physio, he basically told me to throw my crutches away haha! He said that absolutely my fracture would have healed, and that for sure he would have had me doing physio ages ago. He also said about docs not always knowing much about the muscular side of things so often just seeing something and putting them in a cast.
> 
> He tested out my ligament/tendon strength and he was really happy with them. My ROM is lacking obviously. So just need to work on getting more range of motion, strength and stability. He's really excited to work with me and he's gonna tailor our work together in a martial-arts based way to get me back to training, so even throwing kicks etc. I am so darn looking forward to it...
> 
> And I can walk again . Such a weird feeling...
> 
> Have got some exercises to do every day (include a balance/proprioception one) and seeing him next week. So happy and incredibly relieved...


Good to see you are on the mend.  Having more than one independent opinion will more than likely give you confidence in the best course of action to proceed, which you are doing.   As you are fairly young and are not competing to put food on the table, a few months of rehab will make you right as rain and your training will not suffer tremendously for it.  Onward and upward, Simon !


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## _Simon_

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate it. Will be hard work this rehab process, but I'm already stoked that I can walk almost normally. Bit painful today, but can only get better with more use.


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## _Simon_

Rehab is going really really well, and in fact at Tuesday's session he said there's no need for any more physio sessions . He's really happy with my progress, my strength and mobility is improving in leaps and bounds, and to basically just go back if there are major issues or crazy stiffness to work out.

Any slight pains and stiffness will work itself mostly, but I'm walking normally, and pain has subsided alot.

I really enjoyed the sessions, the fact that he was a karate-ka was awesome, as he tailored my sessions basically towards the goal of getting back into the dojo. Lots of balance exercises, moving in forward stance (zenkutsu dachi), ladder-like agility drills on balls of feet, lateral work, and even sparring footwork drills. Will be certain to go back to him for any other injuries.

Quite a journey. Now to get back into the dojo, wherever that may be


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## Gerry Seymour

Glad to hear progress is good. Sounds like maybe the rest did help, after all, so maybe just too much of what it needed so you could get to rehabbing it properly.


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> Glad to hear progress is good. Sounds like maybe the rest did help, after all, so maybe just too much of what it needed so you could get to rehabbing it properly.


Yeah for sure, rest was needed I'm sure, but I ran it for longer than necessary unfortunately going by the early diagnosis etc. Onward on upward


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