# Creative ways to prepare for sparring at home



## PK_Tricky (Dec 27, 2022)

I am learning Ti Chi Chuan, Wing Chun, and Taekwondo.  Currently I do not have money for classes.  I found that employing Wing Chun (blocking, palm strikes, grabbing) while tossing a stool around really helps with muscle memory and strength.  I have also used a mattress as a punching bag with some success.  Taking my coat on and off using Taekwondo blocking techniques helps alot too.  Kicking the crap out of a few comforters (keeping them from hitting the ground) works well with Taekwondo kicks.  Additionally, Ti Chi Chuan works supprisingly well with double Bo Rods (although i did accidently peg myself in my face, and gave me a black eye for a week and a half lol).  Anyway, what other creative ways have you all found work well with objects found in a typical home setting.  Thanks in advance.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 27, 2022)

There's no good way to sugar coat this.
You're not learning any of those arts. You're watching videos, fumbling around, and hurting yourself. You really cannot learn them from videos.
What works best in the home setting is practicing what you've been taught in class.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 27, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> Currently I do not have money for classes.


Foundation, foundation, and still foundation. Nobody can progress in MA without strong foundation. Without a teacher, you won't know what foundation is.

Human body is like 3 separate springs. Without training, each and every spring will be compressed and released independently. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time, and also be released at the same time. To achieve that "body unification" is the foundation building task.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 27, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> I am learning Ti Chi Chuan, Wing Chun, and Taekwondo.  Currently I do not have money for classes.  I found that employing Wing Chun (blocking, palm strikes, grabbing) while tossing a stool around really helps with muscle memory and strength.  I have also used a mattress as a punching bag with some success.  Taking my coat on and off using Taekwondo blocking techniques helps alot too.  Kicking the crap out of a few comforters (keeping them from hitting the ground) works well with Taekwondo kicks.  Additionally, Ti Chi Chuan works supprisingly well with double Bo Rods (although i did accidently peg myself in my face, and gave me a black eye for a week and a half lol).  Anyway, what other creative ways have you all found work well with objects found in a typical home setting.  Thanks in advance.


I'm glad to hear you are having fun. Sometimes that's enough to keep you on your martial arts journey. If you truly don't have money for classes, then you simply don't. 

In that case I would recommend asking people you know if anyone who has training is interested in giving you lessons at no cost. Sometimes people are very excited about doing that, but don't have any potential students.

If that doesn't happen, keep exploring and learning on your own. You certainly aren't getting the quality training at a gym, but the internet is a huge resources none the less. You certainly can obtain some skills at self-defense, as opposed to sitting on the couch and doing nothing. Great job.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 27, 2022)

Train the boring stuff (basics and foundations) then when you think you want to get creative then train the basic stuff harder.  There's  no need to get creative. 

I'm in the gym now and I just finished doing an hour of basic training.  Jabs, hooks,  and footwork.  It may sound boring, but all of my advanced techniques grows from the strength of my basics.  Don't try to make martial arts special.  Focus on the basics.  Then when you have the cash then take a class for formal teaching.

The only creative stuff zi use in martial arts is conditioning, but even that is within reason and with a focus on what I want to accomplish.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 28, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> I am learning Ti Chi Chuan, Wing Chun, and Taekwondo.  Currently I do not have money for classes.  I found that employing Wing Chun (blocking, palm strikes, grabbing) while tossing a stool around really helps with muscle memory and strength.  I have also used a mattress as a punching bag with some success.  Taking my coat on and off using Taekwondo blocking techniques helps alot too.  Kicking the crap out of a few comforters (keeping them from hitting the ground) works well with Taekwondo kicks.  Additionally, Ti Chi Chuan works supprisingly well with double Bo Rods (although i did accidently peg myself in my face, and gave me a black eye for a week and a half lol).  Anyway, what other creative ways have you all found work well with objects found in a typical home setting.  Thanks in advance.


Well done on doing _something, _rather than watching too much TV, playing video games and scrolling through unsociable media!_ Ultimately_ having an experienced teacher giving you intensive feedback on you movements will be invaluable, but from what I’ve experienced, this seldom happens even if you’re in a real class!

I was a great fan of ‘shadow boxing’: throwing your punches, kicks and blocks into the air_ as though_ you were fighting. Videoing these will allow for post-training analysis…do be critical of your performance though - it’s important to be honest with yourself.


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## Holmejr (Dec 28, 2022)

Cheers to you for being motivated enough to train on your own. There are plenty of beginner type videos on YouTube and other resources. As you get past the very basics, you’ll miss the subtleties without a qualified instructors sharp eye. If you’re in the US, On the app NextDoor, I would post and invitation to train. A couple years ago I found a good student that way. The training was really for me (honing my teaching skills) but he got the benefit of learning. I did not charge him. He had to move due to business. Anyway, you might get lucky, yer never know….


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 28, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Well done on doing _something, _rather than watching too much TV, playing video games and scrolling through unsociable media!_ Ultimately_ having an experienced teacher giving you intensive feedback on you movements will be invaluable, but from what I’ve experienced, this seldom happens even if you’re in a real class!
> 
> I was a great fan of ‘shadow boxing’: throwing your punches, kicks and blocks into the air_ as though_ you were fighting. Videoing these will allow for post-training analysis…do be critical of your performance though - it’s important to be honest with yourself.


Thank you, that means alot actually.  I agree that there is no substition for in-person training, and I am saving up to get to that point.  In the mean time, I am gaining flexibility as well as a feel for how the body moves natually.  Sometimes I get creative after I have memorized a few new forms and put them to the test.  For me its all about how to "feel" how each form relates to how the body moves, and get used to quickly moving around.  It also helps me test my focus with a tiny bit of (what feels like) danger, if that makes any sense.  Anyway, thank you for not just jumping to the self-defeating "Take classes or do nothing at all" approach.


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 28, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Cheers to you for being motivated enough to train on your own. There are plenty of beginner type videos on YouTube and other resources. As you get past the very basics, you’ll miss the subtleties without a qualified instructors sharp eye. If you’re in the US, On the app NextDoor, I would post and invitation to train. A couple years ago I found a good student that way. The training was really for me (honing my teaching skills) but he got the benefit of learning. I did not charge him. He had to move due to business. Anyway, you might get lucky, yer never know….


Well getting started was no easy task, lol.  Some days it takes every ounce of effort to get started, but I won't give up.  One of the important points in any martial art (as far as I know) is getting to know your body and its response to movement, as well as how to use each muscle group efficiently in tandem with the rest of your muscles.  I am sortof rotating between different martial arts to gain a foundation and fully understand each concept while fully understanding its foundational elements.  Some really dont jive with me, others fit me like a glove.  Better than just waiting for the opportunity to train in an actual dojo.  The way I look at it, if you feel inspired, go for it.  Thank you for understanding my point of view rather than simply shooting me down.  Anyway, I hope you have a good new year Holmeir!   
Kindest Regards - PK


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 28, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> Kung Fu Wang said:
> 
> 
> > Foundation, foundation, and still foundation. Nobody can progress in MA without strong foundation. Without a teacher, you won't know what foundation is.
> ...





Holmejr said:


> Cheers to you for being motivated enough to train on your own. There are plenty of beginner type videos on YouTube and other resources. As you get past the very basics, you’ll miss the subtleties without a qualified instructors sharp eye. If you’re in the US, On the app NextDoor, I would post and invitation to train. A couple years ago I found a good student that way. The training was really for me (honing my teaching skills) but he got the benefit of learning. I did not charge him. He had to move due to business. Anyway, you might get lucky, yer never k
> 
> 
> Holmejr said:
> ...


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 28, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Cheers to you for being motivated enough to train on your own. There are plenty of beginner type videos on YouTube and other resources. As you get past the very basics, you’ll miss the subtleties without a qualified instructors sharp eye. If you’re in the US, On the app NextDoor, I would post and invitation to train. A couple years ago I found a good student that way. The training was really for me (honing my teaching skills) but he got the benefit of learning. I did not charge him. He had to move due to business. Anyway, you might get lucky, yer never know….


Thanks for giving me some credit for my effort.  It seems sometimes the hardest thing to do is feel accomplished about something, at least, for me anyway.  I cant wait to train in an actual gym.  That being said, I must find out what I am capable of before I can make an educated guess as to exactly what martial art will be best for me.  I will check out the NextDoor app, hopefully I can find some people that are as driven as me.  I have gotten very good at a wide variety of skillsets, and in a way, they do translate.  Thank you for the advice Holmejr!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2022)

You can always try to coordinate your punch with your leading foot landing either on a punching bag or solo drill.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can always try to coordinate your punch with your leading foot landing either on a punching bag or solo drill.


I'm always surprised with how many people can't do this.  Even my brother had difficulty with this. I assumed that they would teach this at his gym but it doesn't look like it.  I'm startto think that it's not the norm to punch like that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm always surprised with how many people can't do this.  Even my brother had difficulty with this. I assumed that they would teach this at his gym but it doesn't look like it.  I'm startto think that it's not the norm to punch like that.


When I punch on my heavy bag, I like to hear the sound of my leading foot landing and punching landing as one blast.

To coordinate "hand with foot" is the easiest part of the training. To coordinate "elbow with knee", and "shoulder with hip" are much harder.

I always assume that when I punch, I have to step forward. I'll never assume that when I punch, I am standing still. This will brain wash myself that I have to keep moving in a fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2022)

More complicate body coordination training can be:

- Left arm parry down, right arm comb hair, and left foot forward landing (at the same time).
- Left arm wrap, right hand push, right leg cut (at the same time).

Without training, these 6 body parts moves can be messy. With training, these 6 body parts moves can be as clean as just 2 moves.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2022)

Instead of punching a mattress see if you can get a stand alone punching bag.  If you can't get that then see if you can hang a tennis ball from the ceiling.  

Use the tennis ball to punch the gaps when the tennis ball swings.  Imagine a target is on the other side that you are trying to hit before the tennis ball swings back and hits your arms.  Move around the tennis ball as it swings. Avoid getting hit by it.


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## drop bear (Dec 28, 2022)

People are going to say classes with instructors is better than you training yourself at home.

But you have to understand that it is rhe individual that makes a talented martial artist and not the system.

So the more you train, no matter what you are training the better you will get. 

That is just science.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So the more you train, no matter what you are training the better you will get.
> 
> That is just science.


If you freeze your body and only punch with your arms, no matter how many years of training that you may have put in, you are still doing wrong. The problem is after you have developed a bad habbit, it's very difficult to fix it.

Correct way to train:





Wrong way to train:


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 29, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> all of my advanced techniques grows from the strength of my basics


So true.  Many "advanced" techniques are simply basic strikes/blocks done with footwork, evasion and angles, or applying basic biomechanical principles in unexpected ways.  I can do a very basic jab or reverse punch in a very "advanced" way.  After many years of study, I find the distinction between "basic" and "advanced" to be quite nebulous.  When that line disappears completely, I will feel I have mastered something.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 29, 2022)

When I first enrolled on a Karate course at the tender age of 12yrs, at a municipally run leisure centre, I had to wait for 3 months before the course started. Rather than just passively waiting I went to the library and found a book on Karate,  (‘Know Karate-Do‘ by Bryn Williams) and studied it cover to cover. As it recommended,  I started doing press ups (against a wall, then as I got stronger, a mantelpiece then a fireplace hearth and then ground on my knuckles). I did stretching exercises-hamstrings, leg adductors, punched at lit candles to snuff out the flame with the air pressure of my fist, bought a makiwara and hit it (ouch!….and I damaged the plaster on the wall as it was resting on the mantlepiece-my parents were not best pleased), I put dry chickpeas on a small container and thrust my knife hand into it (ouch) and I feel certain all this, if nothing else, set me up psychologically for that first day of Wado Ryu Karate!

Your enthusiasm will take you far!


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 29, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm always surprised with how many people can't do this.  Even my brother had difficulty with this. I assumed that they would teach this at his gym but it doesn't look like it.  I'm startto think that it's not the norm to punch like that.


Personally, my lower body lags a bit, but I noticed that particular issue so what i found works well is simply taking some time to dance my bloody head off.  Synchronizing the movement of the body helps alot!


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 29, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Instead of punching a mattress see if you can get a stand alone punching bag.  If you can't get that then see if you can hang a tennis ball from the ceiling.
> 
> Use the tennis ball to punch the gaps when the tennis ball swings.  Imagine a target is on the other side that you are trying to hit before the tennis ball swings back and hits your arms.  Move around the tennis ball as it swings. Avoid getting hit by it.


now thats a good idea, for now a punching bag is out of my price range, but a tennis ball is not.  What if I simply tied it to a hat?


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 29, 2022)

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it more than you think.  Also, I feel alot less wierd for getting creative with my training, lol.  At least you guys seem to be on the same page.  Great stuff!  Keep it coming!


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 29, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> When I first enrolled on a Karate course at the tender age of 12yrs, at a municipally run leisure centre, I had to wait for 3 months before the course started. Rather than just passively waiting I went to the library and found a book on Karate,  (‘Know Karate-Do‘ by Bryn Williams) and studied it cover to cover. As it recommended,  I started doing press ups (against a wall, then as I got stronger, a mantelpiece then a fireplace hearth and then ground on my knuckles). I did stretching exercises-hamstrings, leg adductors, punched at lit candles to snuff out the flame with the air pressure of my fist, bought a makiwara and hit it (ouch!….and I damaged the plaster on the wall as it was resting on the mantlepiece-my parents were not best pleased), I put dry chickpeas on a small container and thrust my knife hand into it (ouch) and I feel certain all this, if nothing else, set me up psychologically for that first day of Wado Ryu Karate!
> 
> Your enthusiasm will take you far!


That chickpeas thing is a good idea.  Just out of curiousity, what is the purpose of that excersize?


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you freeze your body and only punch with your arms, no matter how many years of training that you may have put in, you are still doing wrong. The problem is after you have developed a bad habbit, it's very difficult to fix it.
> 
> Correct way to train:
> 
> ...


agreed, you also must be smart about it, ESPECALLY if you are doing it by yourself.  Martial arts are no laughing matter, and one bad habit could cost you an important match down the road.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I can do a very basic jab or reverse punch in a very "advanced" way.


For all your techniques (such as a jab), if you can have 3 different levels of doing it such as:

1. beginner level - no body unification static punch.
2. intermediate level - body unification static punch (back foot is on the ground).
3. advance level - body unification dynamic punch (back foot is off the ground).

You will have deep understanding about your MA system. Whether the beginner level training should exist or not is debatable. Again, a bad habit can be hard to remove.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2022)

A: After 2 years of training, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 10% off.
A: After 10 years of training, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 5% off.
A: After 20 years of training, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 2% off.
A: I'm dying today, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 0.2% off.
A: I assume this is the best that I can do in my life time. Hope in my next life time, I can do better.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> now thats a good idea, for now a punching bag is out of my price range, but a tennis ball is not.  What if I simply tied it to a hat?


Don't tie it to a hat.  You want to be able to move around it, slip it, move off it's center line.  Hang it lower and you can train kicks by kicking the gaps. Long slow swings will give you time to throw combo punches between the gaps. Follow the swing of the tennis ball to work on how to pressure your opponent. Retreat from the swing to work on evading and countering.  You can do any of these things if the ball is tied to your head.
Treat the gaps of the swinging tennis ball like openings in an opponent's defense.  This will greatly increase your punching and kicking speed.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 30, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> That chickpeas thing is a good idea.  Just out of curiousity, what is the purpose of that excersize?


It’s supposed to hardened the fingertips, strengthen the fingers for spear hand strikes. As you become more proficient you’re supposed to progress to gravel and ultimately sand. I wouldn’t recommend doing this or makiwara training as it’s totally unnecessary (unless you’re planning on attempting a lot of wood/concrete breaking in your MA career), they  may damage the joints and the callouses are very ugly to non-MA.


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2022)

Honestly strength and cardio will prepare you for martial arts probably better than anything.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't tie it to a hat.  You want to be able to move around it, slip it, move off it's center line.  Hang it lower and you can train kicks by kicking the gaps. Long slow swings will give you time to throw combo punches between the gaps. Follow the swing of the tennis ball to work on how to pressure your opponent. Retreat from the swing to work on evading and countering.  You can do any of these things if the ball is tied to your head.
> Treat the gaps of the swinging tennis ball like openings in an opponent's defense.  This will greatly increase your punching and kicking speed.


I used several small home made sand bags. I tied them to different lengths of rope and attached them in several places on the ceiling of the garage. Get them swinging in different directions at different speeds. Then try to make contact with them but don’t let them make contact with you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Honestly strength and cardio will prepare you for martial arts probably better than anything.


I agree that conditioning is what I see lacking in most schools I have visited.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Honestly strength and cardio will prepare you for martial arts probably better than anything.


I'm not sure about that.  I've met many people who had both and still had trouble with Martial Arts.  I've met just as many who didn't have any but gained it in training.  Martial Arts.  The MMA guy that I train spar with is stronger and better conditioned than I am but there are things that I can tell that he will have difficulty with even though he's done TKD.  The same can be said of me.  But with that said strength training and cardio of any type is still a plus.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s supposed to hardened the fingertips, strengthen the fingers for spear hand strikes. As you become more proficient you’re supposed to progress to gravel and ultimately sand. I wouldn’t recommend doing this or makiwara training as it’s totally unnecessary (unless you’re planning on attempting a lot of wood/concrete breaking in your MA career), they  may damage the joints and the callouses are very ugly to non-MA.


…And no woman wants to be touched by that hand...


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Honestly strength and cardio will prepare you for martial arts probably better than anything.


Sort of, if you're talking about competition. And you can get more out of training if you're not sucking air and trying not to just fall over. But real fights generally last seconds, not minutes.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s supposed to hardened the fingertips, strengthen the fingers for spear hand strikes. As you become more proficient you’re supposed to progress to gravel and ultimately sand. I wouldn’t recommend doing this or makiwara training as it’s totally unnecessary (unless you’re planning on attempting a lot of wood/concrete breaking in your MA career), they  may damage the joints and the callouses are very ugly to non-MA.


When students ask, I will teach them how to harden the hands for spear hand strikes. But I strongly discourage them from actually doing it. I did, but I have never once used a spear hand in a real strike. I do not condition for spear hands any more, and have not for many years. Happily, so far as I know, none of my students ignored my advice. 

In general, spear hands just fail the risk/benefit assessment.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure about that.  I've met many people who had both and still had trouble with Martial Arts.  I've met just as many who didn't have any but gained it in training.  Martial Arts.  The MMA guy that I train spar with is stronger and better conditioned than I am but there are things that I can tell that he will have difficulty with even though he's done TKD.  The same can be said of me.  But with that said strength training and cardio of any type is still a plus.


I think it’s hard to build much useful skill without at least the cardio conditioning. I make our guys go the full tilt in 90% of my classes. I feel like some things in training just don’t happen without some fatigue first. Being in good condition helps keep the structure longer and gets people mentally ready to push past their own perceived limits. I also believe that taking people past their exercise limit builds self confidence that will translate to durability and willingness to continue when taking shots or running low on endurance. The discipline of doing it when I don’t feel like it, or when im sick also translates to other training habits. I don’t half *** it even when half an *** is all I’ve got for that day. That said, conditioning is only part of the thing. All folks have strengths and limitations of one kind or another. My goal is to help people try to realize their true potential, whatever that is. I tell them that if they do it more than they don’t do it, they can become it. Training themselves outside the kwoon is necessary to reach that goal. Keeping themselves healthy and able are prerequisites to anything I teach.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sort of, if you're talking about competition. And you can get more out of training if you're not sucking air and trying not to just fall over. But real fights generally last seconds, not minutes.


Also true, but I want to look good when I’m running away.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Also true, but I want to look good when I’m running away.


Sure. Run-Fu should be an integral part of realistic self defense.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Run-Fu should be an integral part of realistic self defense.


“Darling, you look marvelous. It is much better to look good than to feel good” - Billy Crystal


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Run-Fu should be an integral part of realistic self defense.


Yep, the mirror talk is better the next day.


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I punch on my heavy bag, I like to hear the sound of my leading foot landing and punching landing as one blast.
> 
> To coordinate "hand with foot" is the easiest part of the training. To coordinate "elbow with knee", and "shoulder with hip" are much harder.
> 
> I always assume that when I punch, I have to step forward. I'll never assume that when I punch, I am standing still. This will brain wash myself that I have to keep moving in a fight.


I thought there was a relationship there (elbow/knee, shoulder/hip)!  Thank you for sharing this, that tip will help me out a ton! 
-PK


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't tie it to a hat.  You want to be able to move around it, slip it, move off it's center line.  Hang it lower and you can train kicks by kicking the gaps. Long slow swings will give you time to throw combo punches between the gaps. Follow the swing of the tennis ball to work on how to pressure your opponent. Retreat from the swing to work on evading and countering.  You can do any of these things if the ball is tied to your head.
> Treat the gaps of the swinging tennis ball like openings in an opponent's defense.  This will greatly increase your punching and kicking speed.


Thanks JowGaWolf, fantastic input!  I am so glad I decided to seek help in a forum, you guys are awesome!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Also true, but I want to look good when I’m running away.


One of the long fist training is to kick the sand back at your opponent's face when you run away fom him. Unfortunately today we don't have much sand on the paved road.


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sort of, if you're talking about competition. And you can get more out of training if you're not sucking air and trying not to just fall over. But real fights generally last seconds, not minutes.



Seconds is enough to physically loose fights.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Seconds is enough to physically loose fights.


Of course. That's why the fights only last seconds, obviously.
My point being that in a 10 second fight, cardio is not a huge issue.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> Thanks JowGaWolf, fantastic input!  I am so glad I decided to seek help in a forum, you guys are awesome!







This is an example of my tennis ball training. The goal is to develop speed. I use a bell here to simulate  an incoming punch. I'm not blocking but attacking the bell. My targets then becomes the gaps of the swing bell that I must punch and move through.  Then I have to strike around my last target which is a tennis ball in a sock.  The last strike is a parry followed by a backfist.  You have to be very quick to land the back fist before the ball escapes. With the last strike I focused on points of impact. For the final movement I must lower my stance as the tennis ball swings back. My footwork gets me through.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Run-Fu should be an integral part of realistic self defense.


So, like cardio?


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## Gyakuto (Dec 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is an example of my tennis ball training. The goal is to develop speed. I use a bell here to simulate  an incoming punch. I'm not blocking but attacking the bell. My targets then becomes the gaps of the swing bell that I must punch and move through.  Then I have to strike around my last target which is a tennis ball in a sock.  The last strike is a parry followed by a backfist.  You have to be very quick to land the back fist before the ball escapes. With the last strike I focused on points of impact. For the final movement I must lower my stance as the tennis ball swings back. My footwork gets me through.


How very inventive! Do you change the scenario? Shortening it , adding pauses etc for example?


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## Gyakuto (Dec 31, 2022)

Cardiovascular fitness _is_ very important in the martial arts. A fight _may_ only last for a few seconds (it may not), but that assumes you haven’t, for example, attempted to run from the altercation before _having_ to turn around and face your assailant or that you may have to deal with _several_ attackers thus prolonging the duration of conflict. At the beginning of a fight, one‘s adrenaline kicks in, the heart rate shoots through the roof and the respiration rate increases and shallows -a cardiovascular in response to impending exertion.  This can sap your energy long before you’ve even made contact with your would-be attacker.

Thus one _should_ attend to cardiovascular fitness as seriously as one does to, say, flexibility training, as part of ones MA training. After all, would you buy a car who’s maximum speed is 64.37kmph (40mph) because “that’s the fastest you’re allowed to drive around town anyway”?


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is an example of my tennis ball training. The goal is to develop speed. I use a bell here to simulate  an incoming punch. I'm not blocking but attacking the bell. My targets then becomes the gaps of the swing bell that I must punch and move through.  Then I have to strike around my last target which is a tennis ball in a sock.  The last strike is a parry followed by a backfist.  You have to be very quick to land the back fist before the ball escapes. With the last strike I focused on points of impact. For the final movement I must lower my stance as the tennis ball swings back. My footwork gets me through.


Well thats impressive, thanks for slowing it down.  I had to watch it a few times to understand what you ment.  Honestly, that is a very smart way to hone your skills.  Thats what I love about any art form (I include martial arts in that catigory), you can always find new creative ways to do things!


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## PK_Tricky (Dec 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Cardiovascular fitness _is_ very important in the martial arts. A fight _may_ only last for a few seconds (it may not), but that assumes you haven’t, for example, attempted to run from the altercation before _having_ to turn around and face your assailant or that you may have to deal with _several_ attackers thus prolonging the duration of conflict. At the beginning of a fight, one‘s adrenaline kicks in, the heart rate shoots through the roof and the respiration rate increases and shallows -a cardiovascular in response to impending exertion.  This can sap your energy long before you’ve even made contact with your would-be attacker.
> 
> Thus one _should_ attend to cardiovascular fitness as seriously as one does to, say, flexibility training, as part of ones MA training. After all, would you buy a car who’s maximum speed is 64.37kmph (40mph) because “that’s the fastest you’re allowed to drive around town anyway”?


Nicely put.  In other words, don't sell yourself short (pardon the pun hahaha).


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> So, like cardio?


Sort of, but it's not likely you're going to need to run far.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is an example of my tennis ball training. The goal is to develop speed. I use a bell here to simulate  an incoming punch. I'm not blocking but attacking the bell. My targets then becomes the gaps of the swing bell that I must punch and move through.  Then I have to strike around my last target which is a tennis ball in a sock.  The last strike is a parry followed by a backfist.  You have to be very quick to land the back fist before the ball escapes. With the last strike I focused on points of impact. For the final movement I must lower my stance as the tennis ball swings back. My footwork gets me through.


You look like you are thinner, and moving a little different, been hitting it hard with the mma guy huh?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> How very inventive! Do you change the scenario? Shortening it , adding pauses etc for example?


Yes.  I change the length of the cord that it's tied to.  Which changes the rate that it swings.  Sometimes instead of passing through I will throw a combo into the gap then retreat.  The bigger the swing the bigger the gaps.  The smaller the swing the smaller the gaps and the faster I have to punch or kick.  

The hardest thing is to strike the target without killing it.  Front kick training would be to have it swing back and forth towards me with be wings. I then target the peak swing point away from me and I have to pull back my before the ball returns and sometimes I have to get out of the way.  Certain punch drills work better than others.  I've been trying to figure out a way to train power on it.  I have a couple of ideas, I just need to test them out


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2022)

PK_Tricky said:


> Well thats impressive, thanks for slowing it down.  I had to watch it a few times to understand what you ment.  Honestly, that is a very smart way to hone your skills.  Thats what I love about any art form (I include martial arts in that catigory), you can always find new creative ways to do things!


It can be creative but it has to be practical and apply directly to the skill you are training. For example, the down parry using the tennis ball is the same form and movement that I would use to apply it to a punch and then someone's face.  I could do it vertical or horizontal (parry and backfist.)  If there's a big difference between exercise and application then you'll have trouble. 

The "creative drill" should be as close to application as possible. For examples, I punch the gaps so that I don't have to reduce power.  I can punch as hard or as soft as I want so long as I can pull my punch or kick back before the string or the ball hits me.  



Wing Woo Gar said:


> You look like you are thinner, and moving a little different, been hitting it hard with the mma guy huh?


This was when I was going really hard at it about 3 years before the MMA guy and a couple of months before I had my car accident.  After the car accident I had a jacked up hip for the longest and I gained a lot of weight during that period.at the moment I'm lighter now than I was in that picture and I move a lot better as well. If I had to guess I'm about 5 times better than I was in that video.

I will pick up that same training in the video when the weather gets warmer.  I've been neglecting my speed training and overdoing my power training.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sort of, but it's not likely you're going to need to run far.


Well if everyone else is only prepared for ten seconds fights and short runs.

Then cardio becomes even more useful.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 1, 2023)

drop bear said:


> Well if everyone else is only prepared for ten seconds fights and short runs.
> 
> Then cardio becomes even more useful.


I live in the giant redwoods so hiking is really big here. My cardio is important to me so I can keep up with my wife on long hikes. Well, to be truthful 11-12 miles in the hills is long for me, but a breeze for her.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 1, 2023)

There seems to be a glut of huge-bellied martial arts ‘masters’ around these days and I suspect they’re not fans of cardiovascular training. Do they sell plus-sized black and red and white belts in the US?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2023)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I live in the giant redwoods so hiking is really big here. My cardio is important to me so I can keep up with my wife on long hikes. Well, to be truthful 11-12 miles in the hills is long for me, but a breeze for her.


The maximum distance of one day hike that I did was 23 miles in Grand Teton National Park that include climbed to the peak and came down.

The most challenged hike can be the iron man test. You run down from the south rim of the grand canyon, you then run up to the north rim of the grand canyon. The distance is 25 miles with 5850 ft drop and climb.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 1, 2023)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The maximum distance of one day hike that I did was 23 miles in Grand Teton National Park that include climbed to the peak and came down.
> 
> The most challenged hike can be the iron man test. You run down from the south rim of the grand canyon, you then run up to the north rim of the grand canyon. The distance is 25 miles with 5850 ft drop and climb.


No way can I do that. I’m hurt if I exceed 12 miles in one go.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 1, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> There seems to be a glut of huge-bellied martial arts ‘masters’ around these days and I suspect they’re not fans of cardiovascular training. Do they sell plus-sized black and red and white belts in the US?


I don’t wear belts, suspenders are more forgiving and less critically minded.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 1, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> There seems to be a glut of huge-bellied martial arts ‘masters’ around these days and I suspect they’re not fans of cardiovascular training. Do they sell plus-sized black and red and white belts in the US?


Ah, wait, Fat So Fu! Rank in this system is denoted by the width of ones suspenders! I always did want to be a cult leader.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 2, 2023)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ah, wait, Fat So Fu! Rank in this system is denoted by the width of ones suspenders! I always did want to be a cult leader.


Oh the mental imagery! In the U.K. ‘suspenders’ mean a different type of attire! 😄

I think I’d be reluctant to become a member of a MA club if the teacher was of say, George Dillman proportions. What does being in possession of such a physique say about a teacher’s dedication to their art? I’m not saying a MA teacher shd to be a ripped, wiry, 75kg person, but some attempt at maintaining a normal mass and some CV fitness would be inspiring. Would you have confidence in a personal trainer who smoked? A GP who was obese?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 2, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> Oh the mental imagery! In the U.K. ‘suspenders’ mean a different type of attire! 😄
> 
> I think I’d be reluctant to become a member of a MA club if the teacher was of say, George Dillman proportions. What does being in possession of such a physique say about a teacher’s dedication to their art? I’m not saying a MA teacher shd to be a ripped, wiry, 75kg person, but some attempt at maintaining a normal mass and some CV fitness would be inspiring. Would you have confidence in a personal trainer who smoked? A GP who was obese?


Shall we call them braces, rather than suspenders? Well I’m 51 years old, around 95 kg but I’m 6’2” and not fat at all. I don’t smoke, but when I was younger I attempted to smoke myself retarded for several years.  It seems as though I was at least marginally successful in that endeavor.  I know that many Gongfuzi of the 1950s smoked. My teachers did not, but many pictures of Tong members that taught show them smoking on the stoop of the Sturdy Citizens Club, Hop Sing Tong and the like. The CV surgeon I used to work with was both a smoker and super obese. I have known very skilled gung fu guys that smoked, were fat, and could outlast, and out perform some of the younger healthier non smoker students. How long they live may be another story altogether.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 2, 2023)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Shall we call them braces, rather than suspenders?


No! I like the mental imagery!


Wing Woo Gar said:


> It seems as though I was at least marginally successful in that endeavor.  I know that many Gongfuzi of the 1950s smoked.


I suppose it was fashionable in the 50s and the ill-effects were less well know especially in the East. But in the 21st century, there's no excuse, especially when you think that the first time you have a drag on a cigarette, it's truly awful, makes you cough, splutter and stink. But because you might susceptible enough to be influenced by your peers, the current fashions, films stars who smoke etc you carry on trying it, pushing through the horrid stuff until you're addicted! What does that say about you?


Wing Woo Gar said:


> The CV surgeon I used to work with was both a smoker and super obese.


 think I've seen old 40s/50s cartoon adverts where cigarette smoking is endorsed by medical doctors. You see them in their white coats, puffing away on the 'little white sticks of death.'

In the late 80s, I looked after a really nice old man who was in being treated for bladder cancer. He was an industrial chemist who had worked for a tobacco company in the 70s and he told be they had a meeting to work how to make cigarettes even_ more_ addictive to increase their customer base! They devised a way of adhering nicotine to the cigarette paper and in a flash of genius thought of putting a thick layer of nicotine at the far end of the devil stick, so when you lit up and took a drag you received a big hit of lovely nicotine - a 'gradient of addiction'! This layer became thinner along the cigarette until is was absent by the butt and made you desire another cigarette to get that initial hit you'd experienced a few moments ago! It was really addictive and the company knew they'd make a fortune from the idea. They manufactured millions of these cigarettes and had come up with a seductive, sophisticated-sounding name, 'Barclay Drive' (if I remember correctly). Days before the release onto the market, the British government changed the law, making it illegal to put additives into cigarettes (or something similar)! They were horrified and he said the tobacco company hired "lot's of women to hand cut the cigarettes open and salvage the tobacco!!


Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have known very skilled gung fu guys that smoked, were fat, and could outlast, and out perform some of the younger healthier non smoker students. How long they live may be another story altogether.


There are always 'outliers' who buck the statistics..."my auntie Annie smoke 400 filterless cigarettes a day and died at 94  years old when she tried to give up!"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 2, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> my auntie Annie smoke 400 filterless cigarettes a day and died at 94  years old when she tried to give up!"


My grandmom smoked pipe and died at 83. Women smoked pipe were common in northeast part of China.

The problem is if you smoke, you won't be able to enjoy the fresh air that go through your lung. It's a bad idea to damage your lung.


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## Tigerwarrior (Thursday at 8:18 PM)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Shall we call them braces, rather than suspenders? Well I’m 51 years old, around 95 kg but I’m 6’2” and not fat at all. I don’t smoke, but when I was younger I attempted to smoke myself retarded for several years.  It seems as though I was at least marginally successful in that endeavor.  I know that many Gongfuzi of the 1950s smoked. My teachers did not, but many pictures of Tong members that taught show them smoking on the stoop of the Sturdy Citizens Club, Hop Sing Tong and the like. The CV surgeon I used to work with was both a smoker and super obese. I have known very skilled gung fu guys that smoked, were fat, and could outlast, and out perform some of the younger healthier non smoker students. How long they live may be another story altogether.


Just curious, what styles did the tongs mostly train in? I've heard rumors but always wondered.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Friday at 11:50 AM)

Tigerwarrior said:


> Just curious, what styles did the tongs mostly train in? I've heard rumors but always wondered.


I don’t know about all of them. I only have knowledge of the Hop Sing Tong in San Francisco. In there, it was mostly Choy li fut taught by Lau Bun and Sil Lum and other long fist taught by T.Y. Wong. @clfsean is likely a better resource because his Sigung was from there. My Sigung James Wing Woo trained there as a member but had extensive training in Canton before he ever came to the Tong.


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## clfsean (Friday at 1:22 PM)

When Lau Bun was there it was definitely CLF. I would imagine that Jew Leong kept it going as well during his tenure. It makes sense since my Sigung was very active during that period. Once the Leung brothers came in, I think it went White Crane. But also Hop Sing to my knowledge didn't have a "requirement" per se for a singular fighting system.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Friday at 3:33 PM)

clfsean said:


> When Lau Bun was there it was definitely CLF. I would imagine that Jew Leong kept it going as well during his tenure. It makes sense since my Sigung was very active during that period. Once the Leung brothers came in, I think it went White Crane. But also Hop Sing to my knowledge didn't have a "requirement" per se for a singular fighting system.


James Wing Woo came there after having trained in Hung Gar, Tong Long Pai, Ying Jow Pai, Mok Gar, and others. He was room mates for a time with T.Y. Wong. Wong wrote a few books that are pretty good. That spot had several very skilled people come through over the decades. I am proud to have whatever slight connection to it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Friday at 3:45 PM)

clfsean said:


> When Lau Bun was there it was definitely CLF. I would imagine that Jew Leong kept it going as well during his tenure. It makes sense since my Sigung was very active during that period. Once the Leung brothers came in, I think it went White Crane. But also Hop Sing to my knowledge didn't have a "requirement" per se for a singular fighting system.


Here is a picture you might like.  Sifu Rich Montgomery and  Sifu James Wing Woo in back row. Sifu Leo Whang and Gus Hoefling in front row on left. I can’t remember the names of the other two. This is from approx. 1958. After Sifu Woo opened his school in Los Angeles.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Friday at 8:29 PM)

Do not watch Martial Arts Videos they might not show the right way and don't hurt your self go to a real Martial arts near you and observe the class and pick the class you want. There some martial arts school near you that dont cost much so dont loose hope and find a Martial arts school


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## Gyakuto (Yesterday at 2:45 PM)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Do not watch Martial Arts Videos they might not show the right way and don't hurt your self go to a real Martial arts near you and observe the class and pick the class you want. There some martial arts school near you that dont cost much so dont loose hope and find a Martial arts school


But that’s the point, isn’t it? How does a person, with minimal or no experience in the martial arts, assess what is a ‘real martial art’ even after watching a class? Also, there are some truly great martial arts videos online.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Yesterday at 2:52 PM)

Gyakuto said:


> But that’s the point, isn’t it? How does a person, with minimal or no experience in the martial arts, assess what is a ‘real martial art’ even after watching a class? Also, there are some truly great martial arts videos online.


yes there are truly great Martial arts video but the thing is its better to go to a real Martial arts studio and observe and watch better than watching  VIdeo and getting hurt right


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## Gyakuto (Yesterday at 2:56 PM)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> yes there are truly great Martial arts video but the thing is its better to go to a real Martial arts studio and observe and watch better than watching  VIdeo and getting hurt right


You’re not addressing the point. How can an inexperienced person identify an ‘authentic’ martial art and avoid joining a poor martial arts school?


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## Tigerwarrior (Yesterday at 7:43 PM)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I don’t know about all of them. I only have knowledge of the Hop Sing Tong in San Francisco. In there, it was mostly Choy li fut taught by Lau Bun and Sil Lum and other long fist taught by T.Y. Wong. @clfsean is likely a better resource because his Sigung was from there. My Sigung James Wing Woo trained there as a member but had extensive training in Canton before he ever came to the Tong.


How similar is hop gar to clf? I've heard people talking about some of the tongs used hop gar and it was very common, but this was all stuff I read on a kung fu forum a while ago. I'd love to learn clf or even a condensed version for self defense empty hand wise. I'd love to learn the powerful strikes and set ups and add it to my own expression. I bought a DVD few months back tat mau wong? I think his name was, I got his self defense DVD from century and while I liked it it seemed to mostly cover grab defenses and I was hoping to learn striking combinations and set ups, do either of you have any recommendations for me on dvds or books on that part of clf? Thanks.


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## clfsean (Yesterday at 8:04 PM)

Tigerwarrior said:


> How similar is hop gar to clf? I've heard people talking about some of the tongs used hop gar and it was very common, but this was all stuff I read on a kung fu forum a while ago. I'd love to learn clf or even a condensed version for self defense empty hand wise. I'd love to learn the powerful strikes and set ups and add it to my own expression. I bought a DVD few months back tat mau wong? I think his name was, I got his self defense DVD from century and while I liked it it seemed to mostly cover grab defenses and I was hoping to learn striking combinations and set ups, do either of you have any recommendations for me on dvds or books on that part of clf? Thanks.


Hop Ga & CLF are related since they're both long arm Southern styles and share similar theories and mentalities. But they different like a tennis ball and bowling ball. Both are round balls, but one bounces and one rolls through.


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