# the tsd dobahk, Time for a change?



## master dave (Jul 25, 2003)

lets look at our uniform, Dobahk!
is it really a japanese gi with trim? sure it is! hear me out on this one!
the occupation of korea by the japanese was devistating to the korean people. they forced their ways on the koreans, they even forbid them to train in their martial arts and forced the korean men to train in theirs! look at the ranking system! you guessed it japanese also! we use the ranking system that kano the founder of judo put into place for his judo players, ps the color belt system? japanese also! now lets step back in time before the japanese invasion of korea! ranking system? color belts? naa

the dress of the pre occupation was quite different!
ever see the kook sool uniform? how about the hwrang do uniform? belts? no way lets try sashes! korea had a strong resemblance to china dress. korean martial artist used and were versed in weapons before the japanese occupation. they were trained in bow and arrow, staff, spear ect. ect. how many tsd schools or instructors teach weapons? not many! why? remember tang soo do emerged right after the japanese occupation was over. weapons were forbidden! the tsd masters after the occupation did not know or train in weapons! cant teach what ya dont know!
now back to the tsd uniform!
lets look at tae kwon do! v neck top! close to the gi but seperated just enough to take the japanese taste from your mouth.
kook sool wan dress
now thats korean! no japanese flavor at all! no belts they use sashes. korean royal court dress of koreas past.
hap ki do     a nice korean look to a point!
hwrang do    very old korean look! nice dobahk! look of koreas past! heres the question.....is it time we lose the japanese look? many will say our trim seperates us from them! hog wash and you know it! lol.  are we like the tired old soliger who didnt realize the war was over? ha ha. should we wear a more korean dobahk like kook sool? or hwrang do? sashes rather then japanese belts? put some of koreas past back into her art? 
what do you think?
:asian: 
master dave


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 25, 2003)

Dave,

We as instructors are all able to do as we see fit within our respective arts. The issue iss for professional instructors, that we should wear something recognizable and identifiable with our art. Unfortunately, the martial arts community is one in which there is little forgiveness. If you do something "unusual" expect to come under fire. The other issue is that people always instictively want to blieve the bad about others. This affects the instructor when talking about public perception, and the fact that the public is the clientele.

Of course this is only my view point... but I earned the right to wear a TSD uniform. I have no intention of wearing something else, though I do often wear a hanbok, which of course does not take a belt, or a sash.


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## master dave (Jul 25, 2003)

dont get me wrong frank!
im proud of my tsd dobahk and yes i also have earned the right to wear it! and i do proudly! but i was only making a point, something to think about! remember the times were very different back then! and like it or not , think you could get a gi on a tai chi or kung fu practisionist? the dress of the kook sool and hwrang do are beautiful and strongly korean! but also exspensive as well! but the key word is korean! 
Dave:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 25, 2003)

<<think you could get a gi on a tai chi or kung fu practisionist?>>

Well... yes. (lol) I practice both, and have for quite a while.

Seriously though, why would they want to were a gi or a dobok? A TSD Dobok has no meaning for those people. Typically my training apparel in those classes, and when I practice, consists of shoes, workout pants, and a T-shirt, usually a muscle shirt. Actually when I practice TSD, I'm dressed similarly.

Dave, you cannot get more Korean than a Hanbok. It IS Korean clothing. But I still stick to my supposition that a part of what we do, dobok included, is market driven. Try changing it and watch your demographics shift. I guarantee that will happen. Why? Because people are creatures of habit.


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## Galvatron (Jul 25, 2003)

I dont have issue with the TSD dobok. I couldn't care less about if it's Japanese influence or not, I don't have that overactive sense of Korean nationalism...becuase, well I'm not Korean.

I prefer the TKD V-Neck from a practicality standpoint though, not so much straightening of the uniform after doing forms, etc.

my $.02


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## Shinzu (Jul 28, 2003)

i am fond of the TSD dobak.  i find it has a good meaning for myself and my training.  as far as changing it i dont see it happening, but when i am teaching class i like to mix up my gear with colored tops and bottoms.  

this sort of breaks the norm for me and i find it enjoyable.


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## TallAdam85 (Aug 2, 2003)

if they change the tsd uniforms then all tsd would have to or it would look like a different style don't you think? Plus How much would it cost to get a new desing made but would it be a sing of disrespect to the tsd people before us?

i mostly wear t-shirts in classes any way or color unifoms so I am just adding my ideas


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## Shinzu (Aug 3, 2003)

indeed it would have to be a universal change.  but then again i am sure there are organizations that do not follow the "traditional" code so to speak.

then again... what is traditional?  it could vary from instructor to instructor in my opinion.  say one elderly instructor wore a sholin monks uniform when he trained, and so did his former instructor.  are we to say that he is not wearing a "traditional" garment while teaching?

this can go in different directions, but i personally think the TSD uniform is a very noticable uniform for our style.  i beleive it does us justice.


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## TallAdam85 (Aug 22, 2003)

where would you get these new uniforms would u have to get some one to make them make sure everyone likes them find a place to get them made or talk to awma i think it would be more trouble then it is worth

just my 2 cents


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 22, 2003)

Adam,

As a school owner, I can tell you that it is not a problem to have custom uniforms done. Given this specific scenario, I as the school owner would get the dobok and sell them to the students. I know of several people who use soecially designed uniforms, so ease of access would not be an issue.


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## TallAdam85 (Aug 23, 2003)

thanks for the info sir 


I think we talked before on Aol


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## MountainSage (Aug 23, 2003)

I hope someone can answer this question, Are the traditional korean uniforms designed or cut specifically for kick or more so than the traditional gi?  It would seem that the traditional uniform would be designed for kicking as opposed to a gi which is usually from a more punch or grappling type art.  THoughts


Mountain Sage


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## Shinzu (Aug 23, 2003)

i dont think it is cut in any specific manner.


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 24, 2003)

Depends. Hanboks, are cut in a traditional pattern and typically allow ample room in the groin. Dobok for TSD are pretty much the same as for Karate, doboks for TKD are smaller, doboks for hapkido are bigger and like a light version of a judo gi, and then kuksool and hwarang use specially made doboks.

So the answer is both yes and no.


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Sep 14, 2003)

> <<think you could get a gi on a tai chi or kung fu practisionist?>>



Traditional Chinese Martial Arts wore regular old clothing. Many Military and Law Enforcement instructors in China today wear either the military/LE utility uniform, or a TKD/Karate Gi and a black belt because they feel "Thats what a martial artist looks like ".

This isnt exactly my opinion, but it is me playing devils advocate. 
Why would those of you who are devout traditionalists (I know, I know define _traditional_ ) want to change to a different uniform?

I have seen recently in numerous locations an increasing conflict between issues like how the hyung are performed, the use of black over  midnight blue, belt colors, the addition of weapons to TSD, and so on.

Whats it going to be? Ecclectic or traditional?

I get confused. My poor widdle head!


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## Teacher (Sep 24, 2003)

Well...I own two TSD Doboks (the midnight blue trim thingies) as well as a Hanbok (traditional all white) and a Kun Bok (military dress uniform of the Chosun Dynasty.  Mine is about the rank of say a Captain).  I recently discovered a site that makes Wu Dan uniforms and they are making me one with midnight blue trim (at a considerable cost...$200 plus dollars).  If you look at old photos and drawings though from Korea...you will a very similar type of dress worn by scholars.  I think it will make a nice addition to my already unusual collections of uniforms.  OH...and yes...I will wear it to class.  Who knows...maybe I'll be able to start a trend.

I like uniforms.  And I like them because they are good psychological tools.  When you put on a uniform you feel differently.  Depending on the uniform....you may act differently as well.  I have been in some type of uniform most of my life now....and I couldn't see my life any other way.  When I was in the military...I was very proud of my uniform.  When I got my first yudanja Dobok...I was very proud of my uniform.  When I put on my police uniform....I was very proud of  my uniform.  Still today...when I dress up in my Class A police uniform....I always make sure the uniform is clean and all the little shiny medals are in just the right place.  Actually...the public has come to expect this.   So the uniform carries a power with it all by itself.  When I wear my Hanbok.....I feel more soft and relaxed...because it is just that type of clothing.  When I wear my Kun Bok....it is much like the military uniform....I feel I should stand straight and move with authority (which isn't real easy to do with those boots as they aren't the best for traction I've ever worn).  When I put on my dobok and tie up that red and midnight blue belt around my waist....I feel I should be teaching someone something.  Each uniform has its own mood....and its own expectation....not only from me...but from those that see it.   Uniforms are a tool.....and I hope my next uniform...my new Wu Dan style...will foster a feeling of scholarship because there are still an awful lot of things I still want to learn about.

But at the end of the day.....I take off the uniform....and I'm just like the rest of you....naked.

So....why don't you people go put some clothing on?!

LOL!!

JH


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## TSDMDK16485 (Mar 1, 2005)

me pesonally if it is good enough for dojunim hwang kee it is good enough for me...


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## PeppersPetHuman (Jan 31, 2007)

That's interesting. I never thought of it that way before.


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## Muwubu16858 (Feb 1, 2007)

Tang Soo Do Dobahk looks an aweful lot like the japanese since most of the post WWII styles were taught by men who had come back from japan with Dan rank in Karate-do. Although Hwang Kee learned in China, he also picked up on Karate from Japan from books and in meetings with other kwan founders, adopting the uniform look of early Tang Soo Do.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Feb 1, 2007)

Hey, for me, the white do bok with midnight blue trim works just fine. I do, however, prefer the heavier canvas ones to the lighter fabric types. 

I'd like to reiterate what Ma_Kuiwu said: traditional martial artists wore everyday clothes; it's not the clothes that dictate the art, but the training. I wear a do bok because it reminds me that I'm now training and because my school demands it (and because it looks cool), but my training really never stops. If I have to defend myself in the streets, I'm not going to be able to tell my attacker, "Wait, I have to put on my do bok."


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## Master Dave (Feb 1, 2007)

Interesting,
This post lives after 2003....its 2007
But my feelings remain the same....Im aware of the scholar unifrom in question...if you locate the picture look at the belt....looks like a sash..

This may be better suited for another topic but...

Dan testings...
TSD holds them in the spring and fall correct? Most TSD schools and Feds do adhere to this...
usually march and september

So did Funakoshi's Shotokan Dan Testings
Correct me if im wrong.....this was in celebration, and the months chosen of Funakoshi Sensei's birth and death
Yet we adapt this also....or did we know?

TSD dobahks? Hanboks?
Wear whats comfortable......but is it wrong or tabu to wear a black top and white bottoms.....or any combination of colors?  think what Tang Soo Do translates to.....way of the china hand....same meaning meant for the old Okinawan systems which Funakoshi came from....he was okinawan...but relocated to japan.  

Moo Duk Kwan on the other hand was hwang Kees....No One elses's   if your a member then Yes....midnight Blue trim dobak....but is TSD a kwan? no.....its a do...a way, a lifestyle.


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## mjd (Feb 11, 2007)

What about traditional pants, I wear the elastic waist band, stop wearing those draw string kind 15 years ago. 

Allot of us tsd guys wear white with black trim, I don't know why, but it is what my instructor gave me and I am very proud to wear it.


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