# Arm Breaks



## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Does anyone study the Armbreaks technique like Jip Sau found in Chum Kiu?


*Jip sau* = "controlling the bridge"; an arm break


One of my Favorite Techniques is Tok Sau and Pak Sau combined. In my Lineage we also utilize Tok Sau and Fok Sau as arm break. Also we use the double Wu Sau guards as Arm break against a horizontal fist.


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## mook jong man (Feb 25, 2009)

Yep , there's a few arm breaks and a couple of wrist breaks too in ours.


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## bs10927 (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Does anyone study the Armbreaks technique like Jip Sau found in Chum Kiu?
> 
> 
> *Jip sau* = "controlling the bridge"; an arm break
> ...



i know the move in Chum Kiu.  just didn't know the name of it.  lol


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## Sandstorm (Feb 25, 2009)

I didn't ever study the arm breaks, it was pretty much the direct strikes and chi sau along with forward movement etc. I have, however, studied various locks and breaks in kali and JuJutsu and many wrist manipulations and throws from Aikido etc. All are perfectly adapted to the Wing Chun I learned and vica versa.


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

Sure. And a few others.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!




Sandstorm said:


> I didn't ever study the arm breaks, it was pretty much the direct strikes and chi sau along with forward movement etc. I have, however, studied various locks and breaks in kali and JuJutsu and many wrist manipulations and throws from Aikido etc. All are perfectly adapted to the Wing Chun I learned and vica versa.


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## Sandstorm (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!


 

Precisely why cross-training is so effective:wink2:


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!


 
I think they may interelate due to the fact that there's only so many ways or one way a joint moves properly. I don't think the japanese styles have a monoploy on joint locks, chokes, or throws just because those arts may focus primarialy on such techniques. I've seen many other arts with joint breaks, and such in them that were executed differently than any japanese art.
The elbow and knee only move a couple of ways, it would be pretty easy to hyper extend or break these joints even on oneself.  
I think each art does the same joint locks just with different purposes, ends, and entries to the joint breaks.
EX. Wing Chun an art focusing on striking. If we don't achieve the arm break or a joint lock we let it go and continue striking. When I took JJJ if we couldn't get the joint lock, we went for another variant, or another hold, or tried to make the joint lock work far longer than I would now as a WC practitioner.
Aikido seems to flow with the person's energy and focus's on "throwing" the person away from their space with joint flexes, breaks, or such.  While in JJJ we'd focus on keeping them close to us as we broke the arm.  And in WC (at least I'm trained this way) if we get the break cool, if not then we flow with striking, kicking, and such as if we never even tried to get the arm break in the first place.
All different entries, approaches, ends, means, and goals.  But, very largely, the very same joint locks.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Since all style interelate one could cross train or not. Because training one style you may pick something up from another style since they all interelate.




Sandstorm said:


> Precisely why cross-training is so effective:wink2:


 

Also do forget Chin Na deals with Joint locks. An its a Chinese MA.





Si-Je said:


> I think they may interelate due to the fact that there's only so many ways or one way a joint moves properly. I don't think the japanese styles have a monoploy on joint locks, chokes, or throws just because those arts may focus primarialy on such techniques. I've seen many other arts with joint breaks, and such in them that were executed differently than any japanese art.
> The elbow and knee only move a couple of ways, it would be pretty easy to hyper extend or break these joints even on oneself.
> I think each art does the same joint locks just with different purposes, ends, and entries to the joint breaks.
> EX. Wing Chun an art focusing on striking. If we don't achieve the arm break or a joint lock we let it go and continue striking. When I took JJJ if we couldn't get the joint lock, we went for another variant, or another hold, or tried to make the joint lock work far longer than I would now as a WC practitioner.
> ...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Also do forget Chin Na deals with Joint locks. An its a Chinese MA.


 
Qinna is joint locking and muscle and tendon tearing and found in just about every CMA style to varying degrees.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Well this topic is not as hot...as the other. But interesting that atleast a few of you have spoken up on this subject.




Xue Sheng said:


> Qinna is joint locking and muscle and tendon tearing and found in just about every CMA style to varying degrees.


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## jks9199 (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Its funny because many of those moves that are in Aikido and Judo are also with in Tai Chi,Wing Chun and Karate. Very interesting so all styles actually interelate at some point!


Not really...

The human body is a standard model, with various customizations.  There ain't but so many ways to strike, hold, or throw someone.  There are different underlying principles and emphasis on how to achieve this -- but, in the end, there is always going to be an amount of commonality.


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2009)

Yepperz, that's what I was saying.
Most all arts have joint locks, arm breaks, etc.
Well said. 

I've noticed that alot of WC schools don't teach arm breaks and such though. Not even neck throws.  I guess some teachers pick the techniques they like the best and only teach those.  I don't know. But, their are alot of differences in different branches of WT/WC that make me wonder.  It's such a young art to have so many variants.


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## mook jong man (Feb 25, 2009)

In our lineage the wrist breaks and arm breaks are purely defensive , to do them you have to have been grabbed . We don't go seizing peoples arms and wrists to break them , it is a result of us being grabbed in the first place . 

It is simple , you grab me , I put my arm in a certain structure which places you in a bad position and if I so choose I can either break your arm or wrist or just put you in a lot of pain . Reminds me  of a funny story , a long time ago when we were all at a club.

 One of my friends and his wife had just graduated from the police academy , and as I found with several other friends who were also police they tend to think they are ten foot tall and bullet proof , and also seem to ridicule the martial arts .

 So I said I bet I can bring you both to your knees with some simple Wing Chun wrist grab counters . This guy and his wife were both a lot bigger than me by the way , first off the bloke grabbed me on the wrist as hard as he could and I used the elbow over technique from Bil Gee to put pressure on his wrist joint and he dropped to the floor , his missus was still sceptical so I did the same thing to her . 

There they were two big coppers on their knees in pain , after I let them up there reaction was very strange , they just did not want to believe that some small guy could do that to them , and the wife was actually quite angry .

 If it was me I would of said how did you do that and then I would have said can you teach me to do that.


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## matsu (Feb 26, 2009)

funny how some people react mate. i would have been cooooool show me show me!!
and cant wait to get to stage that it becomes that natural. we have learned a few counters quite early on as sifu likes to make sure we know the self defense aspect of each basic technique so single wrist grabs double wrist grabs, i know how to  but i jsut need to keeo working on them.
thansk for tat post mook!!
matsu


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## mook jong man (Feb 26, 2009)

matsu said:


> funny how some people react mate. i would have been cooooool show me show me!!
> and cant wait to get to stage that it becomes that natural. we have learned a few counters quite early on as sifu likes to make sure we know the self defense aspect of each basic technique so single wrist grabs double wrist grabs, i know how to but i jsut need to keeo working on them.
> thansk for tat post mook!!
> matsu


 
Yeah mate some people are just so damn ignorant , but I have had the same reaction before when I worked in a factory and showed some stuff to some blokes .

 The guy I demonstrated on was a little bit scared with hands wizzing around his face and his limbs being jerked in different directions  and another bloke was angry saying well I would just @#$%$ do this and smash your @#$%#% face in blah blah blah . 

I think it is because we as martial artists are used to being taken down a peg or two by our seniors and we come face to face with our own failings everytime we train .

 But non martial artists do not have this and they seem to be under delusions as to their fighting skill , actually the most boastful people I have ever heard in regards to their own fighting skill have been people that have not done one minute of training in their whole life.


Now in regards to those counter arm grabs a good way to sharpen your reflexes is to do them with your eyes closed . So for instance you have your eyes closed and the partner does the grab , as soon as you feel his grab open your eyes and do your technique . You must open your eyes when you feel the grab , this is purely for your partners safety , don't do the technique with your eyes closed . 

You can't tell how much pain your partner is in or if the counter involves striking you might accidentally hit them . This method of training works totally on touch reflexes , because if your eyes are open you will have some clue as to which wrist he is going for and from the position of his hands you will also be able to determine what type of grab .

 With the eyes closed until they make contact drill then you are forced to execute the right technique totally by reflex and without being forewarned . That being said what I have outlined above is a late phase defence , you should also work on making sure you are not grabbed in the first place by , pre-empting any attempted grabs with a parry and striking . 

I know a crap load of arm grab counters but it is worth remembering that the simplest and most direct one is to punch them with your free hand , that is the first arm grab counter people learned at our school .


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## geezer (Feb 26, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> There they were two big coppers on their knees in pain , after I let them up there reaction was very strange , they just did not want to believe that some small guy could do that to them , and the wife was actually quite angry .
> 
> If it was me I would of said how did you do that and then I would have said can you teach me to do that.


 
Man, that is sooo typical. I guess for most people it's not really about the technique at all. It's about dominance and status. When you effectively executed your technique, you contested their status. And, by being smaller, you just added insult to injury. Mook how dare you go around humiliating large people like that! 

A fellow Chunner I knew many years ago had been a cop and gave hakko ryu aiki-jujutsu based seminars on subduing and controlling suspects to police groups. He told me that, even as an experienced cop himself, he typically had to start each seminar by picking the biggest, stubbornest guy in the group and giving him some _real pain_. He had to immediately establish "credibility" ...and dominant status, or he'd be dealing with the same thing you described. I think that dominance thing is something cops know a lot about, given their line of work. Interestingly, this guy was short too. He left our group and later went on to study with Ip Chun. If he didn't live about 1,500 miles away, I'd love to look him up, "pick his brains" and compare techniques.


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## mook jong man (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't like the word short thats discrimination against us short **** bastards we prefer the more politically correct term vertically challenged .

And so what if I have to buy my clothes from the childrens section in K -Mart and can get into the movies for half price.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

With Arm grabs. One simple thing is to Tan Sau and roll the palm up over and press down on the other hand.

Also Tan Sau to make them loose their grip while giving a hard gan sau to nerves in their wrist then front punch with the freed hand(Do in one motion).


Another thing I like is to huen sau and to pak da. Its great.

Or you could just grab under their wrist and tok sau. This makes them release instantly. 

the weakess link on arm grabs is the thumb. So just go against the thumb with minimal force. An they will have to let you go.



mook jong man said:


> I don't like the word short thats discrimination against us short **** bastards we prefer the more politically correct term vertically challenged .
> 
> And so what if I have to buy my clothes from the childrens section in K -Mart and can get into the movies for half price.


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Does anyone study the Armbreaks technique like Jip Sau found in Chum Kiu?
> 
> 
> *Jip sau* = "controlling the bridge"; an arm break
> ...



In the Fut Sao Wing Chun we have the same movement but it's application is not an arm break. Its functions is to control the wrist and elbow joints which at that point you might be able to break them but its about control first.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

Very Interesting please share some of your arm breaks in Fut Sao WC?





futsaowingchun said:


> In the Fut Sao Wing Chun we have the same movement but it's application is not an arm break. Its functions is to control the wrist and elbow joints which at that point you might be able to break them but its about control first.


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## mook jong man (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> the weakess link on arm grabs is the thumb. So just go against the thumb with minimal force. An they will have to let you go.


 
Very true.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 26, 2009)

Are you familiar with the pressure points inside the soft part of arm where the elbow is?

I have woundered if you prss there hard enough would be make great way to bend the arm by making an assailiant pull their arm back lets say they are you by your biceps.





mook jong man said:


> Very true.


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## mook jong man (Feb 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Are you familiar with the pressure points inside the soft part of arm where the elbow is?
> 
> I have woundered if you prss there hard enough would be make great way to bend the arm by making an assailiant pull their arm back lets say they are you by your biceps.


 
I'd just kick em , sorry mate I'm not a big fan of pressure points . Pretty hard to apply in the chaotic hustle and bustle of a real fight in my opinion. 

I abide by the maxim of closest weapon to closest target and in the case of grabs , use what ever limb is free .


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## Si-Je (Feb 27, 2009)

When I studied JJJ all the Joint locks started when YOU were grabed.  You didn't just walk up and "wrestle" someone into a joint lock.  (although it seems to be more popular to do that now days)
When your grabbed, you respond, work the thumb especially when they grab the wrist. That's the weak part of the grip.
But, when it comes right down to "showing" people the "effectiveness" of joint locks, even when you bring them to their knees in pain, some will not believe or accept it. Unless you break the limb.  But, who really wants to do that to prove a point?

Some people just won't listen or experience.
Being smaller myself and Mook, that was funny about the "vertically challenged", your so cute! lol!
You have to work all angles you can, and you learn them quick. Or else you just get hurt.  Even in training.
The think with WC is that the joint locks just sorta "happen".  I mean, your aware of the position even off a punch or kick whatever, and you do the technique, but, if it doesn't work, then you quickly move on.

When Hubbie/Sifu first started teaching me the "arm wraps" in WC (i.e. arm bars) my JJJ would kick in and I'd muscle it, force it, and try to "lock out".  Not the thing to do.  Too easy to counter. Doing the almost Identical motion from JJJ but with a WC flavor you just don't grab.  You snap the joint and if feels like you haven't done anything.

I'm always so afraid that I'll go to hard on him, or try to hard and get to uppity and accidentally hurt him.  Because he's letting me get through the motion to develop muscle memory.  
But,... he won't tap.
In JJJ we'd just simply pat our own leg to let the other know that we feel the joint lock, that you've got it right, now stop before you really hurt me.  That takes alot of trust to train with someone that way.
But, he won't tap.  (might be a pride thing or something. lol!) He forgets or something and I keep applying pressure thinking, because he's so big (and double jointed lol!) that he's not feeling it.

Reguardless, we don't train this too much.
My JJJ gets in the way too much, and is really frustrating to me and him.

All you have to do is "accept" the punch/limb and work the joint.  Like a quick "pop" to the elbow, pressure points are neat, but take way more training time. It's eaiser to just palm strike the elbow as they throw that straight jab, or hook punch is even better.  

But, with WC it's harder to control without hurting your partner.  In JJJ we could break it down really, really slow and stand there static and work the joint more carefully.  But, when you do it off a punch then it happens too fast.
I'm working on my control with that, but, I'm realizing that control with that kind of joint lock will take years at full speed.
You have to deflect the attack and then if something "extra" comes up then captalize on it. You still flow and follow through with striking.  The break isn't the end of the fight.


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## futsaowingchun (Mar 4, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Very Interesting please share some of your arm breaks in Fut Sao WC?





some of the ways in Fut Sao  arm break might occur. Is based on not you trying to grab or lock the opponent but letting him grab you.( there are a very ways to do this.)  Once he grabs you he is temp locked and you have a a window of opportunity to lock him. Other way would to grab him first(fake)  let him over react to the grab when he does he locks himself then you can apply a lock if you like. Any part joint or hinge of th ebody can be broken.


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