# Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])



## Headhunter

Axiom said:


> I was thinking about asking after class when I'm a black belt, if he has less of a problem with it then since I've already been taught the fundamentals of the modern way of doing it. I have been training for 4 years and will recieve my black belt next year.


Eugh I hate when people say that "you will recieve your black belt next year" well how do you know you will you may fail the test I just can't stand it when people say that like they know they're going to be given no matter what


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## MA_Student

Headhunter said:


> Eugh I hate when people say that "you will recieve your black belt next year" well how do you know you will you may fail the test I just can't stand it when people say that like they know they're going to be given no matter what


Agreed always makes me cringe


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## Streetfighter2

Axiom said:


> Maybe because he gives me the thumbs up whenever I sidekick a mitts?  Has openly stated that I'm good, says I'm a great jumper. To hear that from a 9th dan who is a perfectionist is very gratefying. But my  journey has of course only begun.


WOW you can kick a mitt and jump? Wow give this guy a black belt right now


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## Axiom

Streetfighter2 said:


> WOW you can kick a mitt and jump? Wow give this guy a black belt right now



Believe it or not, most students struggle with executing proper sidekicks. They throw them like front kicks on the side extended. Even my buddy who is more flexible than I and has done TKD in the past doesn't get the mechanics down correctly.


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## Headhunter

Axiom said:


> Believe it or not, most students struggle with executing proper sidekicks. They throw them like front kicks on the side extended. Even my buddy who is more flexible than I and has done TKD in the past doesn't get the mechanics down correctly.


What a load of rubbish side kicks are some of the easiest kicks you can throw also what does flexibility have to do with anything you can throw side kicks as low as the knee


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Maybe because he gives me the thumbs up whenever I sidekick a mitts?  Has openly stated that I'm good, says I'm a great jumper. To hear that from a 9th dan who is a perfectionist is very gratefying. But my  journey has of course only begun.


That's not what he was asking, just because you can throw a kick doesn't mean you're going to pass the test, the others on the panel may fail you, you may just have a bad day. If you go into the test /knowing/ you're getting the belt then there's something wrong. Either your instructor just gives them out or you're over confident and arrogant to believe you're going to pass no matter what


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> That's not what he was asking, just because you can throw a kick doesn't mean you're going to pass the test, the others on the panel may fail you, you may just have a bad day. If you go into the test /knowing/ you're getting the belt then there's something wrong. Either your instructor just gives them out or you're over confident and arrogant to believe you're going to pass no matter what



He is a grandmaster, chief instructor, and president of the federation in my country. Nobody but him grades me. And I will not fail.


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## Flying Crane

I understand what makes people cringe when they hear statements like "i will get my black belt next year" but let's be honest, a good teacher won't let a student test unless he feels the student is ready, and if the teacher had been giving feedback indicating that the progress is good and the test will likely happen next year, then the test will likely happen next year and the student will likely pass.

The student still needs to bring his top game to the test and still needs to prove his mettle, and it should not be a guarantee just for showing up, but it will likely happen.


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## Axiom

Flying Crane said:


> I understand what makes people cringe when they hear statements like "i will get my black belt next year" but let's be honest, a good teacher won't let a student test unless he feels the student is ready, and if the teacher had been giving feedback indicating that the progress is good and the test will likely happen next year, then the test will likely happen next year and the student will likely pass.
> 
> The student still needs to bring his top game to the test and still needs to prove his mettle, and it should not be a guarantee just for showing up, but it will likely happen.



How about that question?


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## MA_Student

Flying Crane said:


> I understand what makes people cringe when they hear statements like "i will get my black belt next year" but let's be honest, a good teacher won't let a student test unless he feels the student is ready, and if the teacher had been giving feedback indicating that the progress is good and the test will likely happen next year, then the test will likely happen next year and the student will likely pass.
> 
> The student still needs to bring his top game to the test and still needs to prove his mettle, and it should not be a guarantee just for showing up, but it will likely happen.


Anyone can have a bad day


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> He is a grandmaster, chief instructor, and president of the federation in my country. Nobody but him grades me. And I will not fail.


If that is the case then should be a chance of you failing if he's so strict there should be no guarantees


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> If that is the case then should be a chance of you failing if he's so strict there should be no guarantees



First degree black belt is not meant to be super strict. First degree is really when it all begins and you know the basics.


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## Flying Crane

MA_Student said:


> Anyone can have a bad day


Sure.  And that likely will not prevent the promotion.

Let's be honest here.  When a teacher allows a student to test, in most cases he has already decided to grant the promotion.  The test is just a formality for what will happen regardless.  I think that in most cases a student would need to do quite poorly indeed, fall apart nearly completely, to make a teacher change his mind.

The promotion isn't granted based on the test.  The promotion is granted based on a track record of dedicated training and progression, shown over months and years.  The test is just a formality.


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## RTKDCMB

Headhunter said:


> ugh I hate when people say that "you will recieve your black belt next year" well how do you know you will you may fail the test


It's good to be confident.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> First degree black belt is not meant to be super strict. First degree is really when it all begins and you know the basics.



It should also be a wake up call to be more humble because you've realised you actually know very little.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Headhunter said:


> What a load of rubbish side kicks are some of the easiest kicks you can throw


Well, a respected grandmaster mentions that some people feel you can judge a person's TKD by his/her sidekick (beginning of attached video). 








Headhunter said:


> also what does flexibility have to do with anything you can throw side kicks as low as the knee



And I can do amazing basketball dunks on a 5 foot high net. But that does not make me amazing at dunking


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## MA_Student

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Well, a respected grandmaster mentions that some people feel you can judge a person's TKD by his/her sidekick (beginning of attached video).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I can do amazing basketball dunks on a 5 foot high net. But that does not make me amazing at dunking


A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> First degree black belt is not meant to be super strict. First degree is really when it all begins and you know the basics.


Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level when kids walk in the door and see a black belt they look up to that person and will follow what they do, so if you're not that good they'll be copying bad habits so yeah it should be strict. All tests should be strict in my eyes if they're not that's when you start getting black belts who are garbage and then falling into mcdojo territory


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## TrueJim

_Axiom:_ "Believe it or not, most students struggle with executing proper sidekicks."

_Headhunter: "_What a load of rubbish side kicks are some of the easiest kicks you can throw also what does flexibility have to do with anything you can throw side kicks as low as the knee."

_Gwai Lo Dan:  "_Well, a respected grandmaster mentions that some people feel you can judge a person's TKD by his/her sidekick (beginning of attached video). And I can do amazing basketball dunks on a 5 foot high net. But that does not make me amazing at dunking."

Personally, I think side-kicks are challenging. As shown in that video:

We're taught that the base foot should pivot 180 or nearly so, so that it's facing away from the target. 
As shown in the video, we're taught that the kicking knee should be chambered to the chest with the shin parallel to the ground.
And of course the kicking foot is pulled back into a foot-blade, which serves as the striking surface. 
Then at full extension, there's only a slight hip turn-over -- WITH THE HIPS IN -- so that you can feel the entire muscle chain along the side, the glutes, and the legs all engaging. 
(As Axiom and that video point-out, a lot of beginners perform the kick with the hip pulled back, so that the kick isn't kicking fully to the side -- so you don't get that nice long muscle chain engaging.)
At our school, for testing purposes, all kicks need to be above the belt at least, and that includes the side kick of course. 
We keep both fists chambered in front of the torso.
And then of course after the kick, the kicking knee needs to retract most of the way back to the chest before finally stepping down. 
All of that happens on one leg of course, without losing balance. 
Personally there's no one item on that list that I find difficult -- but simultaneously doing EVERYTHING on that list is, in my opinion. 

I would agree with Headhunter though that if you're only kicking as high as the knee, a side kick is much easier.


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## Axiom

I'm  referring to the rear leg sidekick, just so you guys now. Lead leg sidekick is not particularly intricate. The downside with having a rear leg sidekick as your strong point, is that it's almost never used in sparring. It takes too long to execute and  heavily telegraphed.  You should ideally be good at a technique which is practical, and the rear leg sidekick frankly isn't.

But it's always nice to hear how much Taekwondo intructors treasure it from a forms perspective.


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## TrueJim

MA_Student said:


> A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head



For combat, that's a fair point. Even if kicking to the knee weren't more effective, it's certainly easier to learn and easier to execute -- this means that the ratio of Difficulty to Effectiveness is very favorable for knee kicks. 

That having been said, if we're only practicing stuff that's "easy to do but very effective" then there are things that are even more effective that require even less practice.


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## TrueJim

MA_Student said:


> Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level when kids walk in the door and see a black belt they look up to that person and will follow what they do, so if you're not that good they'll be copying bad habits so yeah it should be strict. All tests should be strict in my eyes if they're not that's when you start getting black belts who are garbage and then falling into mcdojo territory



I think to Axiom's point, if you're only a first degree black belt you're supposed to be reasonably proficient in the basics. (He did say that in his post: the _basics_.) So to your point, if a kid is walking through the door, a first degree black belt is certainly able to demonstrate the _basics_ well. But Axiom is right, being first degree doesn't mean you're yet proficient in the _entirety_ of the curriculum.


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## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I'm  referring to the rear leg sidekick, just so you guys now. Lead leg sidekick is not particularly intricate.



Certainly a lead-leg sidekick is easier...but to your original point: you still see beginners perform even a lead-leg sidekick with their hips pulled back, instead of their hips pushed forward -- i.e., it's some weird Frankenstein hybrid of a real sidekick with a sort-of-front-facing-kick.


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## JR 137

MA_Student said:


> A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head


Not when said head is below my waist.


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## Tez3

MA_Student said:


> Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level when kids walk in the door and see a black belt they look up to that person and will follow what they do, so if you're not that good they'll be copying bad habits so yeah it should be strict. All tests should be strict in my eyes if they're not that's when you start getting black belts who are garbage and then falling into mcdojo territory



In a lot of places the 1st Dan grading is strict and very thorough. I think what Axiom is doing is thinking that what happens in his place of training is the standard for everyone, sadly ( or luckily in my view) that's not so and many places are as you say they should be, strict. My 1st Dan test was a day long grading and we were exhausted at the end of it, there was no certainty of passing even though our instructors had recommended we grade. My instructor said he wanted no black belts who weren't up to standard or who had walked through a grading knowing they would pass.


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## MA_Student

Tez3 said:


> In a lot of places the 1st Dan grading is strict and very thorough. I think what Axiom is doing is thinking that what happens in his place of training is the standard for everyone, sadly ( or luckily in my view) that's not so and many places are as you say they should be, strict. My 1st Dan test was a day long grading and we were exhausted at the end of it, there was no certainty of passing even though our instructors had recommended we grade. My instructor said he wanted no black belts who weren't up to standard or who had walked through a grading knowing they would pass.


No belt test should be easy in my eyes you should have to put everything in 100% every belt. My black belt test wasnt that long maybe 4 hours at most and it had 10 people on the panel ranging from 4th-9th dans. Frankly I think if someone goes into a test /knowing/ they're going to pass they should fail because that's not the right attitude. I'd hate to have that attitude that I know I'm going to pass. Every test I've done I've known I could easily fail and that's what motivates you to work as hard as you can. If I knew I was going to get it no matter I probably wouldn't put as much effort in as what's the point killing myself for something I know Im going to get but if you think you can fail you will put in the extra effort. Same as In a fight (boxing mma etc) you go in knowing you'll win you'll most likely get beaten e.g Anderson silva v chris weidman, Todd duffee v mike Russow, bisping v rockhold. If you go into anything thinking it's a certainty then you seriously need to take a look at yourself in my opinon


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## Tez3

MA_Student said:


> If I knew I was going to get it no matter I probably wouldn't put as much effort in as what's the point killing myself for something I know Im going to get but if you think you can fail you will put in the extra effort.



Absolutely. If you know you're going to get it why even bother grading, just go and buy yourself a nice shiny new belt lol. If he'd said 'when I get my black belt' as an affirmation he was going to work hard and achieve it someday then fine but casually chucking it into a conversation sounds like someone who is either over confident or is paying for his grading and is sure he'll get his belt. I tend to go for over confident because he feels he can criticise from knowledge other styles and other fighters. 
There's also the strange case of saying Bas Rutten can't possibly have earned his Dan grades yet is positive that he himself will get his because the grading isn't strict and he'll pass, mmm.


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## MA_Student

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely. If you know you're going to get it why even bother grading, just go and buy yourself a nice shiny new belt lol. If he'd said 'when I get my black belt' as an affirmation he was going to work hard and achieve it someday then fine but casually chucking it into a conversation sounds like someone who is either over confident or is paying for his grading and is sure he'll get his belt. I tend to go for over confident because he feels he can criticise from knowledge other styles and other fighters.
> There's also the strange case of saying Bas Rutten can't possibly have earned his Dan grades yet is positive that he himself will get his because the grading isn't strict and he'll pass, mmm.


Frankly it shouldn't be easy at all to get a black belt you definentely shouldn't be knowing a year in advance when you're guaranteed to test and guaranteed you'll pass. It's things like that that's bringing down traditional martial arts. I'm only 21 so I haven't been around it since the beginning but frankly I wish I had because I'd have preferred it then to what it is now. These days you tell someone you're a black belt people's reaction would be oh cool yeah so is my brother, my sister, my cousin, 5 of my friends and my uncles dog. In some places it's ridiculous easy to get one. I know for a fact I worked my *** off for mine I trained 5 days a week in classes and practiced every day so it makes me sick to see people who just stroll in after not having trained for 3 months and get a black belt in 20 minutes (not even joking I know one guy at a different school to me did a black belt grading in 20 minutes)


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## TrueJim

As others have pointed out previously, at some schools, the black belt test itself is mostly a formality -- a chance to demonstrate what you can do. Our school has 6 weeks of special pre-test workouts and practice sessions (typically 3-4 hours each). Typically about 80 students (from multiple schools) start the 6-week training sessions, about 20 students finish. Sometime during the course of the six weeks, when they fail to pass muster, the other 60 students are quietly told to wait until the next go-round to try again. Of the 20 who test, typically about 18 pass (it's still possible to choke under pressure, even when the test is mostly a formality). If you test and fail, there's no refund for the testing fee, and you have to wait a year to try again. My point being, not all black belt tests need to be grueling in order to separate the wheat from the chaff -- there are other ways to accomplish that as well.


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## Tez3

TrueJim said:


> My point being, not all black belt tests need to be grueling in order to separate the wheat from the chaff -- there are other ways to accomplish that as well.




I agree but one should also not assume that all gradings are done the same way. The assertion that black belt gradings aren't suppose to be strict is wrong. It's dependent on where you train.


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## RTKDCMB

Axiom said:


> The downside with having a rear leg sidekick as your strong point, is that it's almost never used in sparring. It takes too long to execute and heavily telegraphed. You should ideally be good at a technique which is practical, and the rear leg sidekick frankly isn't.


That maybe the way it is in your system but that is not how it is in every system.


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## andyjeffries

MA_Student said:


> A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head



You'd think so, but it's quite common in MMA these days and while I'm sure it smarts, it's certainly not as devastating as you'd imagine. Of course, when most people imagine it, in their head the opponent stands still and his knee gets obliterated, in reality they move with it and then try to punch you in the face (or something else equally painful).


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## andyjeffries

MA_Student said:


> Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level



Only internationally. We see black belts as experts in the west, but in Korea they're competent beginners. Instructor level begins at 4th Dan in the eyes of the founders.


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## andyjeffries

Tez3 said:


> My 1st Dan test was a day long grading and we were exhausted at the end of it





MA_Student said:


> not even joking I know one guy at a different school to me did a black belt grading in 20 minutes



I have the complete opposite opinion to those two posted above and so does my instructor (who is quite internationally known and respected). You put the hours in during training. If you're training under a decent qualified master, they know you're ready for way before the black belt test recommendation. Then on the day, if the examiner knows their stuff, how long should it take for them to assess the candidates' skill?

Should it really take a day for a high dan examiner watching a candidate to say "yes, they're now a competent beginner, ready for a 1st level black belt of 9 possible levels (that will take another 40 years of training to achieve), who we don't even trust enough to let them promote someone else from white belt". It's the bottom rung on a LONG journey...

My grading syllabus is public and I have no problem saying, yes, that's really all we require - three poomsae, two free sparring rounds, one step sparring, self defence and two board breaks. Even that is more than required by the Kukkiwon. On the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course in Austria, 2015 they told us the testing requirements and said you can add your own in (which I've done), but I still don't need to watch a candidate (particularly one that has trained under me) for a whole day to confirm they're ready.

I think I have a more Korean mindset on this topic than a western one, but not quite as far as the Koreans take it ;-)

Anyway, just my opinion.


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## Tez3

andyjeffries said:


> I have the complete opposite opinion to those two posted above and so does my instructor (who is quite internationally known and respected). You put the hours in during training. If you're training under a decent qualified master, they know you're ready for way before the black belt test recommendation. Then on the day, if the examiner knows their stuff, how long should it take for them to assess the candidates' skill?
> 
> Should it really take a day for a high dan examiner watching a candidate to say "yes, they're now a competent beginner, ready for a 1st level black belt of 9 possible levels (that will take another 40 years of training to achieve), who we don't even trust enough to let them promote someone else from white belt". It's the bottom rung on a LONG journey...




Different styles and different clubs/schools do things differently, it doesn't make it wrong to take a long test nor does it mean it's wrong to do a quick one because the student has already demonstrated ability. 
For my test it was a matter of having a lot to demonstrate before the board, we have a big curriculum including ground work, weapons, techniques, kata, combinations, Ohyogumite, Kihon kumite, free sparring, self defence and teaching. That will easily take a day to show.

Stances alone we have 5 'natural stances, 6 'even' stances, 11 'uneven' stances and 4 'others'. All 15 kicks are done off each leg some also to different heights ie one to knee, one to middle one to head as well as jumping kicks which are done two different ways. We have 15 'arm' blocks, as well as leg blocks sweeps etc. There's also body movements to show then there's renrakuwaza ( combination techniques) done in line as well as set ones...ipponkumite and yakusoku. a lot is done in line work which saves some time but much isn't. The sheer volume of techniques etc we have to show makes it a long day.

The point too was that we enjoyed the day, yes we knew we had our instructors confidence and they knew we were prepared but going into something like that gives you a huge sense of accomplishment and confidence coming out of it. Perhaps you could call it a rite of passage, perhaps not but it certainly gave you a thrill to be presented with your black belt afterwards. It may have just been us doing what you do, showing off what we know, but because it was a long and encompassing day we really felt we'd worked hard. Did we need to show every techniques? Probably not but it felt great being able to remember and execute every single one of those movements. We would never do that again, not for subsequent gradings. Do people fail? Yes.


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## Tez3

And yes gradings should be strict even if you know you are going to pass, no reason for sloppy techniques and laziness whatever type of grading you do! It's an occasion, whether just ceremonial or a proper test one should still have standards.


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## MA_Student

andyjeffries said:


> I have the complete opposite opinion to those two posted above and so does my instructor (who is quite internationally known and respected). You put the hours in during training. If you're training under a decent qualified master, they know you're ready for way before the black belt test recommendation. Then on the day, if the examiner knows their stuff, how long should it take for them to assess the candidates' skill?
> 
> Should it really take a day for a high dan examiner watching a candidate to say "yes, they're now a competent beginner, ready for a 1st level black belt of 9 possible levels (that will take another 40 years of training to achieve), who we don't even trust enough to let them promote someone else from white belt". It's the bottom rung on a LONG journey...
> 
> My grading syllabus is public and I have no problem saying, yes, that's really all we require - three poomsae, two free sparring rounds, one step sparring, self defence and two board breaks. Even that is more than required by the Kukkiwon. On the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course in Austria, 2015 they told us the testing requirements and said you can add your own in (which I've done), but I still don't need to watch a candidate (particularly one that has trained under me) for a whole day to confirm they're ready.
> 
> I think I have a more Korean mindset on this topic than a western one, but not quite as far as the Koreans take it ;-)
> 
> Anyway, just my opinion.


No ones saying anything about set times they're saying that it shouldn't be a walk in the park and they should be strict which they should


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> And yes gradings should be strict even if you know you are going to pass, no reason for sloppy techniques and laziness whatever type of grading you do! It's an occasion, whether just ceremonial or a proper test one should still have standards.



I wrote that they aren't super strict. A girl around 25 years of age, in good health, failed to break a board with her knife hand despite multiple tries and was still awarded a black belt, despite breaking being a formal requirement.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I wrote that they aren't super strict. A girl around 25 years of age, in good health, failed to break a board with her knife hand despite multiple tries and was still awarded a black belt, despite breaking being a formal requirement.


Well then that's just wrong and your instructor obviously isn't as much as a perfectionist as you claim. I personally don't agree with breaking as a requirement for a test but if that's what they require and someone fails to do it then they shouldn't be given the belt it's as simple as that to me. Giving someone a black belt even though they failed a simple requirement is just silly....why make it a requirement if they're going to pass you anyway. It's things like this that take away the legitemancy of a black belt.

But hey I can see why you're so confident you won't fail now


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Well then that's just wrong and your instructor obviously isn't as much as a perfectionist as you claim. I personally don't agree with breaking as a requirement for a test but if that's what they require and someone fails to do it then they shouldn't be given the belt it's as simple as that to me. Giving someone a black belt even though they failed a simple requirement is just silly....why make it a requirement if they're going to pass you anyway. It's things like this that take away the legitemancy of a black belt.
> 
> But hey I can see why you're so confident you won't fail now



Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.


Yeah and that's a big problem and why TKD has a crummy reputation among some people. That and the Olympics is what ruins it's reputation. I know taekwondos a great and i don't believe at all that all schools just hand them out but a number do and that's a very big problem


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Yeah and that's a big problem and why TKD has a crummy reputation among some people. That and the Olympics is what ruins it's reputation. I know taekwondos a great and i don't believe at all that all schools just hand them out but a number do and that's a very big problem



It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?

Stop fixating on belts.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?
> 
> Stop fixating on belts.


Belts /should/ mean ability that's what they should but not anymore because instructors are giving them out like chocolates at Christmas


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Belts /should/ mean ability that's what they should but not anymore because instructors are giving them out like chocolates at Christmas



Belts denote time spent in an art. Second dan entails 2 years spent since first dan. A third dan 3 years from the second dan. etc

It is assumed that this correlates with ability, but that is an oversimplification.


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## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?
> 
> Stop fixating on belts.



Should have used the jab


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## Axiom

CB Jones said:


> Should have used the jab



I did after I got pissed and clocked him repeatedly. Kickboxers, TKD guys etc apparent achilles heal


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## JR 137

Axiom said:


> It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?
> 
> Stop fixating on belts.


If there's a standard attached to a belt, it should be a minimum standard.  Just because someone goes way over that minimum standard doesn't mean everyone nor anyone else should have to be at their level.  

Just playing devil's advocate.


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## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> If there's a standard attached to a belt, it should be a minimum standard.  Just because someone goes way over that minimum standard doesn't mean everyone nor anyone else should have to be at their level.
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate.



The minimal standard that was reported to me was time spent. I found this was also only a general principle, since a dude will receive his black belt this year despite starting training with me 4 years ago, and the rule was black belt in 5 years. But he competed so maybe they want to reward that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Belts denote time spent in an art. Second dan entails 2 years spent since first dan. A third dan 3 years from the second dan. etc
> 
> It is assumed that this correlates with ability, but that is an oversimplification.


That depends a lot on the art, organization, and school. A lot of them have issues with time spent being the only requirement. What if someone has spent all his time in an dojo, but only ever bothered with one kick? What about when one person trains 5 days a week, and someone else trains 1 day a week, do they both get their black belt after the same amount of time? It prevents the rank having any meaning, and if there is no meaning, what's the point of having ranks?


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> The minimal standard that was reported to me was time spent. I found this was also only a general principle, since a dude will receive his black belt this year despite starting training with me 4 years ago, and the rule was black belt in 5 years. But he competed so maybe they want to reward that.


 after 1st dan yes you wait the set time but you still have to test for it until 5th dan. 5 years to get a black belt being a rule is dumb so if I keep turning up for 5 years but I suck I still get the belt. I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong in my eyes. It's about ability not time well that's what it's supposed to be anyway before mcdojo instructors started giving out black belts to keep students in the club


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## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> That depends a lot on the art, organization, and school. A lot of them have issues with time spent being the only requirement. What if someone has spent all his time in an dojo, but only ever bothered with one kick? What about when one person trains 5 days a week, and someone else trains 1 day a week, do they both get their black belt after the same amount of time? It prevents the rank having any meaning, and if there is no meaning, what's the point of having ranks?



Someone who partakes in a class could not possibly only bother with one kick. Time spent means just that. If you rarely show up in a year, you might not get an opportunity to get graded. If you show up once a week I don't think it affects anything though.


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> so if I keep turning up for 5 years but I suck I still get the belt.



Yes.


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## MA_Student

kempodisciple said:


> That depends a lot on the art, organization, and school. A lot of them have issues with time spent being the only requirement. What if someone has spent all his time in an dojo, but only ever bothered with one kick? What about when one person trains 5 days a week, and someone else trains 1 day a week, do they both get their black belt after the same amount of time? It prevents the rank having any meaning, and if there is no meaning, what's the point of having ranks?


Agreed that would seriously piss me off if I train 5 days a week and a guy trains once a week and we get the belt the same time. That's bs why should I bother train 5 days a week if I'm still getting it anyway why bother training the 4 extra


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## Axiom

You need to memorize the patterns of course, but supposing you do that the belt is yours.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Yes.


Well that's a joke and it's a disgrace and seriously you know this is the case so answer this honestly when you get presented your black belt how do you know you're good enough for it how do you know you deserve it. I'm not saying if you're good or you're not but how do you know your a legitimate black belt if everyone who trains enough gets one.


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## Headhunter

Axiom said:


> The minimal standard that was reported to me was time spent. I found this was also only a general principle, since a dude will receive his black belt this year despite starting training with me 4 years ago, and the rule was black belt in 5 years. But he competed so maybe they want to reward that.


Your stories change more times than the weather. First you said your instructor was a 9th perfectionist and all that now your instructor gives everyone who makes it 5 years a black belt.


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Well that's a joke and it's a disgrace and seriously you know this is the case so answer this honestly when you get presented your black belt how do you know you're good enough for it how do you know you deserve it. I'm not saying if you're good or you're not but how do you know your a legitimate black belt if everyone who trains enough gets one.



That's not the point. Point is I stuck with it for 5 years and did my best. It's a bit like getting a grade. You pass a test just as much with an E as an A.


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## Axiom

Headhunter said:


> Your stories change more times than the weather. First you said your instructor was a 9th perfectionist and all that now your instructor gives everyone who makes it 5 years a black belt.



Perfectionist in class/training and in gradings are two separate things.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> That's not the point. Point is I stuck with it for 5 years and did my best. It's a bit like getting a grade. You pass a test just as much with an E as an A.


so to you a black belt is a participation award. You did your best I don't doubt it but some people's best just isn't good enough not everyone can be a black belt and that's fine. I know a guy who's a great guy, nice guy works his *** off every time but he's been a brown belt for 10 years and he knows he won't get to black belt he accepts he's not good enough but he doesn't care.

Yeah it's a pass but if you pass with an E and you have a maths test with a guy who gets an A who's going to get the better score?

If you go into someone's else's club wearing your participation belt and your doing your forms with a legit black belt your stuff is going to look a hell of a lot worse than his.

Look I get it everyone wants the quick route to black belt everyone wants it fast but do you really think your instructors doing you any favours giving it to you when you may not deserve it.


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Oh my god.,,,so to you a black belt is a participation award. You did your best I don't doubt it but some people's best just isn't good enough not everyone can be a black belt and that's fine. I know a guy who's a great guy, nice guy works his *** off every time but he's been a brown belt for 10 years and he knows he won't get to black belt he accepts he's not good enough but he doesn't care.
> 
> Yeah it's a pass but if you pass with an E and you have a maths test with a guy who gets an A who's going to get the better score?
> 
> If you go into someone's else's club wearing your participation belt and your doing your forms with a legit black belt your stuff is going to look a hell of a lot worse than his.
> 
> Look I get it everyone wants the quick route to black belt everyone wants it fast but do you really think your instructors doing you any favours giving it to you when you may not deserve it.



There are criterias for accurate form display (legs extended when kicking, for an example) and this I can of course confirm by myself, if I can do it or not.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> That's not the point. Point is I stuck with it for 5 years and did my best. It's a bit like getting a grade. You pass a test just as much with an E as an A.


Sticking with it and doing your best is a very different thing than sticking with it. Doing my best is showing up every time I can, and giving it 110% whenever I'm there. Sticking with it is coming once a week and half-assing it when I'm there. Those two people shouldn't be advancing at the same rate, it's unfair to the first person, and dishonest to the second.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> There are criterias for accurate form display (legs extended when kicking, for an example) and this I can of course confirm by myself, if I can do it or not.


Yeah but you just said before that someone failed a requirement and yet they still passed and listen having your legs extended when kicking...a beginner should be able to do that man. 

Look mate you may think I hate you or something I don't because I don't know you I've never seen you train or spar and I apologise if anything I say offends you but seriously here do you see the problem with getting a black belt in 5 years no matter what I'm being genuine here. But listen I'm done here you won't get any replies. Best of luck to you.

Peace


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.



does it? do you think the TKD instructors on here are lax then?



Axiom said:


> It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?
> 
> Stop fixating on belts.



You need to make your mind up whether kickboxers are better than TKD people or that TKD people are kickboxer's nemesis. Perhaps you should stop making silly comments.



Axiom said:


> Belts denote time spent in an art. Second dan entails 2 years spent since first dan. A third dan 3 years from the second dan. etc
> 
> It is assumed that this correlates with ability, but that is an oversimplification.





Axiom said:


> Yes.



Belts may denote time spent in grade where you train but they don't in a lot of other places. Most places ask for a minimum time spent in grade before trying to grade for the next belt, it is a guideline so you don't grade too soon but is not a benchmark for passing. The times you quote aren't the same for everywhere either.

It's obvious to us now why you are so sure you are getting your belt, it's also obvious that it's as has already been said a participation award for doing the time regardless of how good or bad you are. Personally I would leave and find a place where I knew my gradings meant more than paying for them and staying a certain amount of time. I also find your assessment of TKD gradings and your school to be disrespectful.


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## MA_Student

kempodisciple said:


> Sticking with it and doing your best is a very different thing than sticking with it. Doing my best is showing up every time I can, and giving it 110% whenever I'm there Sticking with it is coming once a week and half-assing it when I'm there. Those two people shouldn't be advancing at the same rate, it's unfair to the first person, and dishonest to the second.


Agreed I could randomly pick up a gun and shoot it at a target and trymy absolute   best to hit it doesn't make me an expert marksman


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

MA_Student said:


> Agreed that would seriously piss me off if I train 5 days a week and a guy trains once a week and we get the belt the same time. That's bs why should I bother train 5 days a week if I'm still getting it anyway why bother training the 4 extra



While I agree with you in concept on how it's unfair, for a lot of people that wouldn't matter too much. I'm fine with wearing a white belt, a black belt, or a rainbow belt, regardless of how much I train. But for people who have that as a goal, or need to see progress, I can see it being very demotivating.


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## Tez3

kempodisciple said:


> While I agree with you in concept on how it's unfair, for a lot of people that wouldn't matter too much. I'm fine with wearing a white belt, a black belt, or a rainbow belt, regardless of how much I train. But for people who have that as a goal, or need to see progress, I can see it being very demotivating.



For a lot of people who start martial arts they expect their gradings to be an indication that they are improving, for people with no previous knowledge of martial and no way to judge themselves it should be a reward for good technique. they have to trust their instructors and the organisation that they aren't being ripped off, belts at this stage of their martial arts journey are important. As they gain in experience, learn more about their martial art and can recognise what is good, bad or indifferent belts aren't as important.
There is also the money aspect, people paying hard earnt money to be taught properly and to progress. If they then see that everyone passes regardless of standard it becomes a rip off.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> For a lot of people who start martial arts they expect their gradings to be an indication that they are improving, for people with no previous knowledge of martial and no way to judge themselves it should be a reward for good technique. they have to trust their instructors and the organisation that they aren't being ripped off, belts at this stage of their martial arts journey are important. As they gain in experience, learn more about their martial art and can recognise what is good, bad or indifferent belts aren't as important.
> There is also the money aspect, people paying hard earnt money to be taught properly and to progress. If they then see that everyone passes regardless of standard it becomes a rip off.


I agree with all this, my comment was for the "why bother training the 4 extra" part of the quote. Even if you're not getting recognized for it, it doesn't mean you should not be training hard. If your only focus is external motivation (belts) there's a good chance you'll burn out unless you also develop some internal motivation for training.


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## TrueJim

MA_Student said:


> [A black belt is] about ability, not time...well that's what it's supposed to be anyway, before mcdojo instructors started giving out black belts to keep students in the club



Playing devil's advocate:

Where did you hear this? Who told you that a black belt is supposed to be about _ability_, not about time spent?

Here's my point: I think you're making an assumption that isn't necessarily born out by facts. Maybe there are schools/systems where a black belt IS defined as time spent. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying it's a thing: a belt only means what a school defines it to mean. Centimeters only mean what we define the to mean. Grams only mean what we define them to mean. Same thing goes for belts. 

If the head of the school defines "black belt" to mean "Makes really good ice cream sundaes"...well then, that's what it means in that school. That doesn't mean they're a McDojo -- for all we know, they still practice excellent taekwondo -- with a cherry on top.

You're assuming "black belt" means "really good ability" -- but schools are free to make belts mean whatever they want them to mean. That doesn't mean it's a bad school. Centimeters wouldn't be "better" by being twice as long -- they'd just be different.


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## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Eugh I hate when people say that "you will recieve your black belt next year" well how do you know you will you may fail the test I just can't stand it when people say that like they know they're going to be given no matter what


I would have said that the year before I finished testing for mine. I knew the tests, and knew I'd be able to pass them all. It wasn't a matter of "no matter what" - I just knew my own capabilities and the requirements that had been set. If something changed (I was injured, requirements changed, etc.), then my answer might have changed.


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## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Anyone can have a bad day


If a student fails a test because of a "bad day", they were close to the edge of their ability to meet the requirements.


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Yeah but you just said before that someone failed a requirement and yet they still passed and listen having your legs extended when kicking...a beginner should be able to do that man.



The patterns get progressively harder and no, a beginner can not perform higher pattern movements correctly. I can perform the moves accurately, including aerial kicks. I am therefore by the book, a legit soon to be black belt.


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## Axiom

It can be unreasonably strict as well. There are accounts of Karate gradings in which students fail black tests because of petty details relating to distance between the feet, exact angles, despite having excellent striking techniques. That's just as unfair as the laxed gradings, IMO.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Different styles and different clubs/schools do things differently, it doesn't make it wrong to take a long test nor does it mean it's wrong to do a quick one because the student has already demonstrated ability.
> For my test it was a matter of having a lot to demonstrate before the board, we have a big curriculum including ground work, weapons, techniques, kata, combinations, Ohyogumite, Kihon kumite, free sparring, self defence and teaching. That will easily take a day to show.
> 
> Stances alone we have 5 'natural stances, 6 'even' stances, 11 'uneven' stances and 4 'others'. All 15 kicks are done off each leg some also to different heights ie one to knee, one to middle one to head as well as jumping kicks which are done two different ways. We have 15 'arm' blocks, as well as leg blocks sweeps etc. There's also body movements to show then there's renrakuwaza ( combination techniques) done in line as well as set ones...ipponkumite and yakusoku. a lot is done in line work which saves some time but much isn't. The sheer volume of techniques etc we have to show makes it a long day.
> 
> The point too was that we enjoyed the day, yes we knew we had our instructors confidence and they knew we were prepared but going into something like that gives you a huge sense of accomplishment and confidence coming out of it. Perhaps you could call it a rite of passage, perhaps not but it certainly gave you a thrill to be presented with your black belt afterwards. It may have just been us doing what you do, showing off what we know, but because it was a long and encompassing day we really felt we'd worked hard. Did we need to show every techniques? Probably not but it felt great being able to remember and execute every single one of those movements. We would never do that again, not for subsequent gradings. Do people fail? Yes.


When I was testing for shodan, it took me about 6 months - a similar issue to your full day, except it all (except the final test) had to happen during regular classes, so was broken up into smaller increments over a longer calendar period. And there was a vocabulary test that actually was part learning and part memory, so it typically took about 10 sessions to complete.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> And yes gradings should be strict even if you know you are going to pass, no reason for sloppy techniques and laziness whatever type of grading you do! It's an occasion, whether just ceremonial or a proper test one should still have standards.


Agreed. "Strict" isn't necessarily the same thing as "really hard". Whatever the requirements, they should be strictly, well, required.


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## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Well then that's just wrong and your instructor obviously isn't as much as a perfectionist as you claim. I personally don't agree with breaking as a requirement for a test but if that's what they require and someone fails to do it then they shouldn't be given the belt it's as simple as that to me. Giving someone a black belt even though they failed a simple requirement is just silly....why make it a requirement if they're going to pass you anyway. It's things like this that take away the legitemancy of a black belt.
> 
> But hey I can see why you're so confident you won't fail now


It's only "wrong" if we assume the breaking requirement is the point, in and of itself. If the breaking requirement is meant to demonstrate a certain quality, which is otherwise in evidence (ability to deliver power, perhaps), then he may have substituted a different display of that quality. And it may be that what's expressed as a "requirement" is not actually such - but something that is measured toward a different end.

To use a completely different situation to explain what I mean, let's say a side kick above belt level was required, on both sides. Now we have a student who has a hip problem (defect in the joint, an old injury that leaves permanent limitation, whatever). If everything else is spot on, I'd waive the requirement for that side kick.

Of course, we have no way of knowing if the instructor waived the 'requirement' for a legitimate reason, or not.


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## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> Playing devil's advocate:
> 
> Where did you hear this? Who told you that a black belt is supposed to be about _ability_, not about time spent?
> 
> Here's my point: I think you're making an assumption that isn't necessarily born out by facts. Maybe there are schools/systems where a black belt IS defined as time spent. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying it's a thing: a belt only means what a school defines it to mean. Centimeters only mean what we define the to mean. Grams only mean what we define them to mean. Same thing goes for belts.
> 
> If the head of the school defines "black belt" to mean "Makes really good ice cream sundaes"...well then, that's what it means in that school. That doesn't mean they're a McDojo -- for all we know, they still practice excellent taekwondo -- with a cherry on top.
> 
> You're assuming "black belt" means "really good ability" -- but schools are free to make belts mean whatever they want them to mean. That doesn't mean it's a bad school. Centimeters wouldn't be "better" by being twice as long -- they'd just be different.


I like the logic of your argument, Jim.

And now I want ice cream.


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## Tez3

It would seem though that all discussion about the black belt test as far as the OP is concerned are moot now because the OP has told u that he will get his because he has trained there for the requisite time, that people who don't fulfil the requires still get their belts so making the whole test pointless. I don't just mean the breaking incident but the fact the OP said all you had to do was the time not actually be any good at TKD.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Sorry, *boxing*-like hip-twist. not Karate. using your entire body when punching pads..



So you think karate doesn't 'twist'? 



Axiom said:


> It can be unreasonably strict as well. There are accounts of Karate gradings in which students fail black tests because of petty details relating to distance between the feet, exact angles, despite having excellent striking techniques. That's just as unfair as the laxed gradings, IMO.



Where are these accounts? Everything you post is just you making 'statements', please post proof of these otherwise it's not even hearsay, *it's gossip*.

You have to understand as well that what may be petty to you or even me is likely not to be to others. Students who train with instructors who are likely to fail them for such things like that fact, that's why they train there instead of walking away. The students and instructors are like minded. It matters to them what the distance is etc, for them it's not all about the 'striking' as it seems to be with you. For some people the devil is in the detail so for them the gradings are fair. It may not seem so to us but we aren't training with them. Most students gravitate towards a martial arts style and instruction that suits them. I think you would be better to concentrate on your own training rather than worry about how others grade.


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You have to understand as well that what may be petty to you or even me is likely not to be to others. Students who train with instructors who are likely to fail them for such things like that fact, that's why they train there instead of walking away. The students and instructors are like minded. It matters to them what the distance is etc, for them it's not all about the 'striking' as it seems to be with you. For some people the devil is in the detail so for them the gradings are fair. It may not seem so to us but we aren't training with them. Most students gravitate towards a martial arts style and instruction that suits them. I think you would be better to concentrate on your own training rather than worry about how others grade.



What I didn’t like about Shotokan karate

_"After I became a Shotokan brown belt my rank advancement came to a halt. I kept testing to go to the next brown belt level (you have to get to the third before trying for a black belt). I kept being told that my sparring (fighting) skills were better than my kata (form) skills.
_
*OK. Granted. But some of the criticisms of my basic Shotokan expertise were off-base – a product of looking at students through an assembly line, one-size-fits-all mentality. After failing a rank test I heard, "Your shoulders were too high; that's a sign of tension." A photo taken at the exam even was given to me as proof.

I went home, took my shirt off, got into the stance that I was in when the photo was taken, and looked at my shoulders in a mirror. Yes, they looked just like they were at the exam. I tried to relax them further. I couldn't. They were relaxed. I've got broad shoulders. My shoulders look different from most other guys' shoulders.

You'd think that an advanced Shotokan black belt, like all of the examiners were, would be able to take into account an individual difference like that. However, Shotokan isn't big on individuality. If you're a second degree black belt, then maybe, just maybe, you'll be allowed to tweak a move in a kata to better suit you."
*


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> What I didn’t like about Shotokan karate
> 
> _"After I became a Shotokan brown belt my rank advancement came to a halt. I kept testing to go to the next brown belt level (you have to get to the third before trying for a black belt). I kept being told that my sparring (fighting) skills were better than my kata (form) skills.
> _
> *OK. Granted. But some of the criticisms of my basic Shotokan expertise were off-base – a product of looking at students through an assembly line, one-size-fits-all mentality. After failing a rank test I heard, "Your shoulders were too high; that's a sign of tension." A photo taken at the exam even was given to me as proof.
> 
> I went home, took my shirt off, got into the stance that I was in when the photo was taken, and looked at my shoulders in a mirror. Yes, they looked just like they were at the exam. I tried to relax them further. I couldn't. They were relaxed. I've got broad shoulders. My shoulders look different from most other guys' shoulders.
> 
> You'd think that an advanced Shotokan black belt, like all of the examiners were, would be able to take into account an individual difference like that. However, Shotokan isn't big on individuality. If you're a second degree black belt, then maybe, just maybe, you'll be allowed to tweak a move in a kata to better suit you."*



Sweetie, that's one person's opinion not proof of anything other than he has an opinion. He's made the same mistake as you though in thinking that his experience means that Shotokan is like this everywhere rather than just where he trained. We can all generalise  and spout clichés but it only ends up with us looking stupid. I might as well say I met a man from New York once who was a bit rude so I'm telling you now that all Americans are rude or how about I met a woman from Liverpool and she had thick curly hair so all women from the UK have thick curly hair. Are you getting this yet? Parroting the opinions of one dissatisfied karate student doesn't make all Shotokan bad nor it's instructors poor. It can also mean the writer is just bitter because he was failed for major reason but isn't going to say so, he chooses to give us minor details so it's the instructors that look bad not him. You need to question why this person wrote this and not give it to us as 'proof' it's barely more than gossip as I said.

There's also plenty of comments under that article that fundamentally disagree with him. Did you read them, there's more than these three I've posted, I quite like the last one.

"you dont know what your talkin about. ive been taking shotokan karate for 7 years now and i've got my second degree black belt. and let me tell you we do realize we dont have "authority" over the other styles. we realize the strengths and weaknesses our style has when put agianst the other forms. you sit there and made it look like we people in shotokan are a bunch of arrogant fools. i dont appreciate that at all.

Posted by: jeff wethers | March 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM "


"I have to disagree with your blanket assessment of Shotokan karate. Not all schools are run that way. Less then twenty four hours ago I tested and passed to second level brown belt; second kyu. In addition to our standard training of basics we also engage in very practical self defense. Many of the black belts who train here are cops or even professional bodyguards. My instructor has mentioned many times to do " your karate" clearly understanding the individual strengths and weakness of everyone. As far as corvettes ? I know for a fact there is no profit being made here worth mentioning. The president is one of my closeset friends and the occasional profits went to treating us all on a night out. We pay half what most schools pay and as an advanced student I have seven different opportunities to train per week. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but not all places are the same.

Posted by: Steve X | September 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM "


"mann you are totally off on this one shotokan is not about rigidity at all its all about getting connection through your entire body and releasing energy through one focal point in your body to create a very powerful and fast technique. The reason that you might have held your own against someone that is ranked higher than you is because you might have better physical skills than the other person. Or simply because the other person is not that great at free style kumite. BUT what you do not understand is the fact that he understands how his body connects he understand that you have to squeeze muscles together at the same time and also rotate your hips in such a way that causes more force to come out. NO you are to focused on the fact that you were thinking of your self as a macho guy who thinks he is better than everyone else... along those lines i have trained shotokan for 17 years and i am still a 3rd degree brown. it is not all about belts.
spiritually it is invigorating, every day you try and better yourself.

Posted by: Mikael B. | April 22, 2013 at 06:28 PM"


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Sweetie, that's one person's opinion not proof of anything other than he h*as an opinion. He's made the same mistake as you though in thinking that his experience means that Shotokan is like this everywhere rather than just where he trained. We can all generalise  and spout clichés but it only ends up with us looking stupid. I might as well say I met a man from New York once who was a bit rude so I'm telling you now that all Americans are rude or how about I met a woman from Liverpool and she had thick curly hair so all women from the UK have thick curly hair. Are you getting this yet? Parroting the opinions of one dissatisfied karate student doesn't make all Shotokan bad nor it's instructors poor. It can also mean the writer is just bitter because he was failed for major reason but isn't going to say so, he chooses to give us minor details so it's the instructors that look bad not him. You need to question why this person wrote this and not give it to us as 'proof' it's barely more than gossip as I said.
> 
> There's also plenty of comments under that article that fundamentally disagree with him. Did you read them, there's more than these three I've posted, I quite like the last one.
> 
> "you dont know what your talkin about. ive been taking shotokan karate for 7 years now and i've got my second degree black belt. and let me tell you we do realize we dont have "authority" over the other styles. we realize the strengths and weaknesses our style has when put agianst the other forms. you sit there and made it look like we people in shotokan are a bunch of arrogant fools. i dont appreciate that at all.
> 
> Posted by: jeff wethers | March 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM "
> 
> 
> "I have to disagree with your blanket assessment of Shotokan karate. Not all schools are run that way. Less then twenty four hours ago I tested and passed to second level brown belt; second kyu. In addition to our standard training of basics we also engage in very practical self defense. Many of the black belts who train here are cops or even professional bodyguards. My instructor has mentioned many times to do " your karate" clearly understanding the individual strengths a*nd weakness of everyone. As far as corvettes ? I know for a fact there is no profit being made here worth mentioning. The president is one of my closeset friends and the occasional profits went to treating us all on a night out. We pay half what most schools pay and as an advanced student I have seven different opportunities to train per week. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but not all places are the same.
> 
> Posted by: Steve X | September 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM "
> 
> 
> "mann you are totally off on this one shotokan is not about rigidity at all its all about getting connection through your entire body and releasing energy through one focal point in your body to create a very powerful and fast technique. The reason that you might have held your own against someone that is ranked higher than you is because you might have better physical skills than the other person. Or simply because the other person is not that great at free style kumite. BUT what you do not understand is the fact that he understands how his body connects he understand that you have to squeeze muscles together at the same time and also rotate your hips in such a way that causes more force to come out. NO you are to focused on the fact that you were thinking of your self as a macho guy who thinks he is better than everyone else... along those lines i have trained shotokan for 17 years and i am still a 3rd degree brown. it is not all about belts.
> spiritually it is invigorating, every day you try and better yourself.
> 
> Posted by: Mikael B. | April 22, 2013 at 06:28 PM"



I never asserted that all Karate schools are like that. I claimed that they *can be. *You requested of me to prove it to you, and now it's not good enough. How surprising.


----------



## Axiom

Malos1979 said:


> I trained for 25 years in Silat now and never had a test, still got a certificate from my teacher with the title Guru on it, not that I would ever use that.
> 
> I rather have a teacher judge someone over a longer period like a year how he performs and grow within that year rather than 1 hour of testing. And I think Axiom is trying to tell you that but he is misunderstood



The fact that an art that touts itself as self defence, would value kata over free fighting (kumite) to the extent that a perfectly average student fails a black belt test, is to me outrageous. None of the points usally raised about kata positioning have any bearing on a free moving , self defence situation, since those stances will be modified (or dropped) anyway, and it's silly of any instructor to think that they wouldn't.

While I appreciate Shotokan instructors being strict, they should view the full picture of a student. That would be my philosophy were I to ever grade people as an instructor.


----------



## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> I wrote that they aren't super strict. A girl around 25 years of age, in good health, failed to break a board with her knife hand despite multiple tries and was still awarded a black belt, despite breaking being a formal requirement.



Again though, we do the same thing. For us destruction isn't about the wood, it's about performing the technique correctly without holding back because there's an object in the way.

If the candidate still performs the technique correctly, but the board doesn't break then they still pass that section. By the same token, if they used a horrible sloppy technique but the board broke, should they have passed? Not here - as I said, it's all about the technique.


----------



## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> Again though, we do the same thing. For us destruction isn't about the wood, it's about performing the technique correctly without holding back because there's an object in the way.
> .



Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then. That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would  you agree?


----------



## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> For us destruction isn't about the wood,.



Aren't you affiliated with the KKW? The conditions clearly state the objective is to break the board.


----------



## Axiom

As if that wasn't enough, the board wasn't even wood....


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I never asserted that all Karate schools are like that. I claimed that they *can be. *You requested of me to prove it to you, and now it's not good enough. How surprising.



No, you are claiming that Shotokan is like that and I've quoted your posts where you say it is. Have you ever trained in a Shotokan class? You are putting them down so much yet I suspect you actually know nothing about them. What you posted wasn't proof at all, it was one person's blog telling us his opinion, there was no proof there at all.



Malos1979 said:


> I rather have a teacher judge someone over a longer period like a year how he performs and grow within that year rather than 1 hour of testing. And I think Axiom is trying to tell you that but he is misunderstood



No, he is making very plain his dislike of a particular karate style.



Axiom said:


> The fact that an art that touts itself as self defence, would value kata over free fighting (kumite) to the extent that a perfectly average student fails a black belt test, is to me outrageous. None of the points usally raised about kata positioning have any bearing on a free moving , self defence situation, since those stances will be modified (or dropped) anyway, and it's silly of any instructor to think that they wouldn't.
> 
> While I appreciate Shotokan instructors being strict, they should view the full picture of a student. That would be my philosophy were I to ever grade people as an instructor.



You see here you go again..._'all Shotokan instructors'_. You are basing your opinion on what ONE person says, you are taking what his side of the story is to be true of ALL Shotokan instructors and of the style. You also show a huge lack of knowledge about_ kata_ and _bunkai_. The criticisms you make of Shotokan and it's instructors is breathtakingly ignorant. Your outrage is based on ignorance.






Axiom said:


> Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then. That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would  you agree?




You stated that in your TKD's school's grading a person failed to break a board and still passed the grading. _It was you brought this up as being wrong_, it has nothing to do with Shotokan where they rarely use board breaking  at any time yet now it's not a problem and it's something else that's wrong with Shotokan? Really, you need to start reading what you write. You probably also need to read and understand what* senior* TKD people are telling you unless you think you know better than them?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> No, you are claiming that Shotokan is like that and I've quoted your posts where you say it is.



No, I stated that they very well can be. Is there a problem for you reading things through the lens of nuances instead of absolutes?



Tez3 said:


> Have you ever trained in a Shotokan class?



Yes.



Tez3 said:


> You are putting them down so much yet I suspect you actually know nothing about them. What you posted wasn't proof at all, it was one person's blog telling us his opinion, there was no proof there at all.



It was one person relaying his experience, which confirms other peoples reports. Black belt tests in Shotokan are notoriously picky.







Tez3 said:


> You see here you go again..._'all Shotokan instructors'_. You are basing your opinion on what ONE person says, you are taking what his side of the story is to be true of ALL Shotokan instructors and of the style. You also show a huge lack of knowledge about_ kata_ and _bunkai_. The criticisms you make of Shotokan and it's instructors is breathtakingly ignorant. Your outrage is based on ignorance.



Once again, I did  not state that all Shotokan instructors fit the bill. There is no mention of the word *all*, except in your mind





Tez3 said:


> You stated that in your TKD's school's grading a person failed to break a board and still passed the grading. _It was you brought this up as being wrong_, it has nothing to do with Shotokan where they rarely use board breaking  at any time yet now it's not a problem and it's something else that's wrong with Shotokan?



I'm comparing laxed gradings with overly rigid ones. And if I had to pick, I'd take the laxed one since it would not risk negating talented students at sparring who flunk because of microscopic kata pickiness.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> No, I stated that they very well can be. Is there a problem for you reading things through the lens of nuances instead of absolutes?



You aren't talking in nuances ( whatever that means lol) you are making statements that you are getting pulled up for and can't substantiate.





Axiom said:


> Yes.



To black belt?



Axiom said:


> It was one person relaying his experience, which confirms other peoples reports. Black belt tests in Shotokan are notoriously picky.



You see, there you go again. 'Black belt tests in shotokan are notoriously picky', in whose opinion? Yours. As I said before and you didn't read, obviously, one person's 'picky' is another's ideal. You can't judge and have shown nothing to prove that they are excessively 'picky'.






Axiom said:


> Once again, I did not state that all Shotokan instructors fit the bill. There is no mention of the word *all*, except in your mind




When you say 'Shotokan is this or that' don't you understand that you are saying 'all'? there is no qualifier from you saying that it's some, a few or even just a couple. See above where you say 'Shotokan gradings...' this is you saying 'all'. apart from the fact it's not true.



Axiom said:


> I'm comparing laxed gradings with overly rigid ones. And if I had to pick, I'd take the laxed one since it would not risk negating talented students at sparring who flunk because of microscopic kata pickiness.




I have no idea what a 'laxed' grading is, I assume you mean 'lax'. You may want to look up the word. *No one wants a lax test.
*


----------



## hoshin1600

Generally I have seen that many students actually fail or even are never asked to test because their attitude sucks.  I personally would not grade an arrogant person who thinks they know everything or the ones who think they are entitled to a certain rank.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> When you say 'Shotokan is this or that' don't you understand that you are saying 'all'? there is no qualifier from you saying that it's some, a few or even just a couple.



The qualifer is the preface: "can be". The absence of the word "all" is another. I know of Shotokan instructors who take into account individual differences when grading a persons kata. I also know of instructors that don't. The trend seems to be that the higher ranked and prolific the instructor is, the worse it is when it comes to rigidness. I can reference more experiences from a Shihan, Japanese Shotokan instructor who objected to stylistic way the student performed a kata, and failed him.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I have no idea what a 'laxed' grading is, I assume you mean 'lax'. *test.*



You're about as picky with words with a foreign poster as S O M E  Shotokan instructors are with Katas in gradings. Congrats. Laxed was my attempt to use the word "lax" in past tense, which turned out to be incorrect.


----------



## Axiom

hoshin1600 said:


> Generally I have seen that many students actually fail or even are never asked to test because their attitude sucks.  I personally would not grade an arrogant person who thinks they know everything or the ones who think they are entitled to a certain rank.



My attitude was based on past experiences, and past experiences in my club indicates to me that my instructor does not fail anyone no matter how much they screw up. A grandmaster, Chief instructor and President of the Federation. But I'm sure he's not representative at all! TKD gradings are super strict and I could be the first one to fail his test in ages (sarcasm*).


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> You're about as picky with words with a foreign poster as S O M E  Shotokan instructors are with Katas in gradings. Congrats. Laxed was my attempt to use the word "lax" in past tense, which turned out to be incorrect.



You have not said English isn't your first language. However, being 'picky' with words is important, using the wrong word changes the whole meaning of sentences and totally skews understanding.  Such as 'lax'. You are saying you want 'lax' gradings, this means you want careless... slack... negligent... slipshod... negligent ...neglectful gradings which are words for 'lax'  and as I said no one wants that. You need another word instead to describe a grading that isn't over strict ( 'over strict' would do).

it may well be that like your understanding of the word 'lax' your understanding of these gradings is flawed, influenced by what you have read.


You are misunderstanding too that when you say 'Shotokan is known for something' that there is no qualifier to say you mean only some , you actually have to say that and not keep saying 'Shotokan is'.

I assume too that you don't realise that you are contradicting yourself a lot as well, which makes for confusing reading for the rest of us.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I can reference more experiences from a Shihan, Japanese Shotokan instructor who objected to stylistic way the student performed a kata, and failed him.



As is his right if he feels the student is wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. I take it you think you know better than this instructor in a style that's not your own? it's not my style either, so I wouldn't criticise someone else's instructor doing a style I don't do.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You have not said English isn't your first language. However, being 'picky' with words is important, using the wrong word changes the whole meaning of sentences and totally skews understanding.  Such as 'lax'. You are saying you want 'lax' gradings, this means you want careless... slack... negligent... slipshod... negligent ...neglectful gradings which are words for 'lax'  and as I said no one wants that. You need another word instead to describe a grading that isn't over strict ( 'over strict' would do).



Nope. I would take *lax* gradings over rigid ones and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees in an age old kata with limited applicability for self defence, since people are constantly moving in such situations and not dogmatically fixed in a stance.


----------



## Axiom

Btw, *Laxed* was a perfectly appropriate term: I found great synonyms for "laxed" on the new Thesaurus.com!

_"Loose", "slacken",....
_
It's your english that is lacking, not mine.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Btw, *Laxed* was a perfectly appropriate term: I found great synonyms for "laxed" on the new Thesaurus.com!
> 
> _"Loose", "slacken",....
> _
> It's your english that is lacking, not mine.



Sigh. Lax or laxed is still not what you want in a grading, you missed my point. If you have no sense of self respect then I suppose a lax grading is fine. Being slack isn't a good thing when it comes to gradings, it means you are rubbish basically. A slack person or someone doing a slack job is not good.



Axiom said:


> Nope. I would take *lax* gradings over rigid ones and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees in an age old kata with limited applicability for self defence, since people are constantly moving in such situations and not dogmatically fixed in a stance.



This shows your total lack of understanding of kata. Here's another word for you to look up..... *Bunkai. *There is also your lack of understanding of 'lax' again, it isn't the opposite of rigid in the way you think it is. Lax *is not a good thing*, in this context the opposite of 'rigid' would be '*relaxed*'. 
Rewarding laziness? then why should anyone bother working hard, striving to be the best they can if you reward laziness. Being gifted is worth nothing without putting the work in. You don't reward people for having a full head of hair or for having long legs, they were born that way so you don't 'reward' gifted people who do sweet Fanny Adams about anything, that's a nonsense. You work hard and then you are rewarded. 

You haven't understood that people who take a style that demands a very high standard are happy there, it's what they want. If they don't want that then they walk away. We each choose a style and stay with it _because it suits what we like and want._ You don't get to criticise what other styles do when their students are happy with it, hundreds of thousands if not millions over the years have graded in Shotokan, are you saying you know better than all of them and that they shouldn't bother?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> This shows your total lack of understanding of kata. Here's another word for you to look up..... *Bunkai. *



The bunkai is executed in the exact same stances as in the katas... Those stances are not likely to be implemented during a live confrontation. Thus the applicability of katas may only extend to the actually strikes, not the stances. So to fail a student based on stances or exact posture of the upper body is unwarranted from a self defence perspective. Shotokan is marketed as a self defence, and gradings should take into account not just the kata.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Sigh. Lax or laxed is still not what you want in a grading, you missed my point.



You claimed that that it was a misuse of the word and that lax was the word I was looking for. You were wrong.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Being slack isn't a good thing when it comes to gradings, it means you are rubbish basically. A slack person or someone doing a slack job is not good.



It doesn't need to be black or white. A student can be dedicated to one aspect of Karate and a lazy in another. I would view it from the full picture. As long as the kata display isn't way off the mark and techniques are executed accurately, I would pass the student.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> You claimed that that it was a misuse of the word and that lax was the word I was looking for. You were wrong.



No, 'Laxed' is a verb, you used it as adjective where it doesn't make sense.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> It doesn't need to be black or white. A student can be dedicated to one aspect of Karate and a lazy in another. I would view it from the full picture. As long as the kata display isn't way off the mark and techniques are executed accurately, I would pass the student.



Luckily for students you aren't the examiner.  When you train martial arts you should be equally dedicated in all areas because all areas are connected.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> The bunkai is executed in the exact same stances as in the katas... Those stances are not likely to be implemented during a live confrontation. Thus the applicability of katas may only extend to the actually strikes, not the stances. So to fail a student based on stances or exact posture of the upper body is unwarranted from a self defence perspective. Shotokan is marketed as a self defence, and gradings should take into account not just the kata.




Oh dear. I think 'discipline' isn't high on your list on qualities a martial artist should have. So we have you passing lazy students, students who can't be bothered to use correct techniques, those who don't understand what katas are and can do for you, students who only put the time in not the effort so tell me, why should anyone actually bother learning a martial arts? why not just watch a few videos and buy yourself a black belt?

There is a very good podcast on this link to help you understand kata and Bunkai. I'm not going to start a discussion on Bunkai or kata but before you start telling us more of your thoughts please listen to an expert.
Q and A Podcast Part 1: Self-defence and Bunkai Questions | Iain Abernethy


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> No, 'Laxed' is a verb, you used it as adjective.



That's being picky. I still used the right word and the meaning came across perfectly well. I stand by the word .. I prefer those types of gradings to strict ones. People have lives outside the dojo and if I a person is very capable in executing the techniques, it should be taken into concideration. A highly skilled kumite student can thus overcome a slightly off kata in the gradings, and vice versa.



Tez3 said:


> Luckily for students you aren't the examiner.  When you train martial arts you should be equally dedicated in all areas because all areas are connected.



Hence my statment: "As long as the katas arent way off the mark, the student should be passed". I wouldn't pass a student who fails all criterias of performing a kata. That goes without saying.


----------



## Tez3

Part Two. Q and A Podcast Part 2: Karate and Training | Iain Abernethy


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> That's being picky. I still used the right word and the meaning came across perfectly well. I stand by the word .. I prefer those types of gradings to strict ones. People have lives outside the dojo and if I a person is very capable in executing the techniques, it should be taken into concideration. A highly skilled kumite student can thus overcome a slightly off kata in the gradings.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence my statment: "As long as the katas arent way off the mark, the student should be passed". I wouldn't pass a student who fails all criterias of performing a kata. That goes without saying.



What a load of bollocks. I do understand you prefer shoddy gradings to strict ones, and that because you consider yourself good at sparring you naturally assume you are better than others therefore you must pass your grading...*which is in TKD not the Shotokan you keep deriding!
*
Why are you still discussing your perceived failings of Shotokan when you don't train it? You know that is style bashing and against the rules here? You started a thread on 'old style' TKD which you think you want to learn ( because your instructor is keeping things from you) why not concentrate on what you are training NOW and stop slagging off other styles?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> What a load of bollocks. I do understand you prefer shoddy gradings to strict ones, and that because you consider yourself good at sparring you naturally assume you are better than others therefore you must pass your grading...*which is in TKD not the Shotokan you keep deriding!
> *
> Why are you still discussing your perceived failings of Shotokan when you don't train it? You know that is style bashing and against the rules here? You started a thread on 'old style' TKD which you think you want to learn ( because your instructor is keeping things from you) why not concentrate on what you are training NOW and stop slagging off other styles?



It's not style bashing to criticize a curriculum. as long as the actual content of the curriculum is not adressed. My contention is that it's very improbable that people would apply stances from katas in live action, so the emphasis should be on other parts of the kata when grading the individual, if the style is marketed as a self defence. 

An instructor can focus on whatever he/she chooses in everyday class and the student can take it or leave it, but that's separate from the actual gradings.

Style bashing would be: "Shotokan striking techniques don't work".


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> It's not style bashing to criticize a curriculum. as long as the actual content of the curriculum is not adressed. My contention is that it's very improbable that people would apply stances from katas in live action, so the emphasis should be on other parts of the kata when grading the individual, if the style is marketed as a self defence.
> 
> An instructor can focus on whatever he/she chooses in everyday class and the student can take it or leave it, but that's separate from the actual gradings.
> 
> Style bashing would be: "Shotokan striking techniques don't work".



No, really, you should stop now,  many of your comments on Shotokan are style bashing, re-read them. 

Your comments on kata, stances etc are ill informed. Do you know all stances in all katas, do you know there are 'natural' stances that _are _used in sparring? How many stances do you know? Do you understand anything about the discipline used in martial arts that mean you strive to do all techniques well not just the ones you like, think will work or you can do? You think it's fine to do things sloppily because you don't think you need to do them well? You don't care about focus, awareness or the importance of doing something to the best of your ability? Do you understand any of the wider points of training martial arts? People don't just do them to spar or fight, there's a lot of reasons. Perhaps this will speak to you more? Martial Arts are More than Fighting -


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> I would take *lax* gradings over rigid ones, and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees...



*Gifted but Lazy*   vs.  *Less Talented but Hard Working*

I have to say, I don't think I could disagree with this more.  

In my opinion, grading is largely about the extent to which somebody is achieving their potential through hard work.  When it comes to testing, at our school we don't expect a 60 year old man to spar as well as a 20 year old athlete -- instead, we're asking ourselves, "Did this 60-year-old man's hard work result in a guy who spars really well for his age?" If we saw a lazy 20 year old athlete who was only sparring slightly better than that 60 year old man, we'd fail the young athlete and pass the older guy.  

We have a fair number of older students (50+), a lot of younger students (10 and under), a number of disabled students (blind students, Down syndrome students, etc.) and the usual cadre of 20-40-year old fit men who rattle your teeth when you spar against them. Our judges are testing these people not against an absolute standard, but against their potential -- and lazy students never EVER pass. 

At our school, belts are definitely not a measure of how _gifted_ you are.


----------



## Tez3

This is the curriculum for the KUGB, this organisation has many of the best karate fighters in the world as instructors. they are also some of the finest all round karateka and instructors. I suggest you contact them and tell them where they are going wrong, seriously I mean it. as for this thread, I'm done with you, you are like a wilful child who is determined to slag off another style without providing any proof of your allegations. No style or instructor is perfect but you need to stop the pointless comments about Shotokan.
KUGB Shotokan Karate Grading Rules & Syllabus for Kyu & Dan Grades


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> *Gifted but Lazy*   vs.  *Less Talented but Hard Working*
> 
> I have to say, I don't think I could disagree with this more.
> 
> In my opinion, grading is largely about the extent to which somebody is achieving their potential through hard work.  When it comes to testing, at our school we don't expect a 60 year old man to spar as well as a 20 year old athlete -- instead, we're asking ourselves, "Did this 60-year-old man's hard work result in a guy who spars really well for his age?" If we saw a lazy 20 year old athlete who was only sparring slightly better than that 60 year old man, we'd fail the young athlete and pass the older guy.
> 
> We have a fair number of older students (50+), a lot of younger students (10 and under), a number of disabled students (blind students, Down syndrome students, etc.) and the usual cadre of 20-40-year old fit men who rattle your teeth when you spar against them. Our judges are testing these people not against an absolute standard, but against their potential -- and lazy students never EVER pass.
> 
> At our school, belts are definitely not a measure of how _gifted_ you are.



It's all relative. My standard is soft compared to the examiner who (incorrectly) failed a student because of his shoulders, but that doesn't mean that I advocate sloppy forms.


----------



## Tez3

TrueJim said:


> *Gifted but Lazy*   vs.  *Less Talented but Hard Working*
> 
> I have to say, I don't think I could disagree with this more.
> 
> In my opinion, grading is largely about the extent to which somebody is achieving their potential through hard work.  When it comes to testing, at our school we don't expect a 60 year old man to spar as well as a 20 year old athlete -- instead, we're asking ourselves, "Did this 60-year-old man's hard work result in a guy who spars really well for his age?" If we saw a lazy 20 year old athlete who was only sparring slightly better than that 60 year old man, we'd fail the young athlete and pass the older guy.
> 
> We have a fair number of older students (50+), a lot of younger students (10 and under), a number of disabled students (blind students, Down syndrome students, etc.) and the usual cadre of 20-40-year old fit men who rattle your teeth when you spar against them. Our judges are testing these people not against an absolute standard, but against their potential -- and lazy students never EVER pass.
> 
> At our school, belts are definitely not a measure of how _gifted_ you are.



Your place sounds a great place to train! I imagine all your students get a real sense of achievement when they've passed their gradings, a sense of self worth and confidence as well which is so important for many people.


----------



## Axiom

I do stand by that if I have to pick the lesser of two evils, I would opt for the lax gradings, simply because promising students will always make the cut no matter what, but not neccesarily in the super strict ones, and this might result in them leaving.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I do stand by that if I have to pick the lesser of two evils, I would opt for the lax gradings, simply because promising students will always make the cut no matter what, but not neccesarily in the super strict ones, and this might result in them leaving.



Given the etymology of the word 'lax' I think I can safely say that what you write here is BS. 

lax | Definition of lax in English by Oxford Dictionaries

1Not sufficiently strict, severe, or careful.
_‘lax security arrangements at the airport’_

_‘he'd been a bit lax about discipline in school lately’_

_‘A review of electronic security inside commonwealth agencies has reportedly uncovered a culture of theft and lax security inside the public service.’_
_‘Caring does not mean you are soft and lax on standards.’_
_‘Today, a year later, airport security is as lax as ever.’_
_‘The punishment must fit the crime, neither too lax nor too severe.’_
_‘The source says against this background of lack controls, especially lax internal controls, it is easy to see how a fraud of this type could arise and not be detected for so long.’_
_‘The person who lives here has been exceptionally lax about security.’_
_‘We can't have it both ways - we can't be concerned about terrorism when security is lax but whinge about scaremongering when steps are taken to deal with the threat.’_
_‘The campaign has targeted allegedly lax regional and local governments.’_
_‘This strikes me as a pretty lax approach to national security.’_
_‘There has been lax security on internal US flights.’_
_‘But research shows that the standards remain too lax - and mercury continues to be unregulated.’_
_‘Most students who graduate enjoy the two years of creative freedom, lax discipline and reasonable workload.’_
_‘Despite continuing lax enforcement, concern rose at the end of the century, in response to a perceived increase in the consumption of whisky.’_
_‘Overcrowding and lax security were blamed for the escape.’_
_‘Those two sides have plenty of time to interact due to the ludicrously lax security arrangements.’_
_‘Many social problems stem from lax enforcement of strict legal code.’_
_‘Indeed, she seems not to recognize that state-sponsored inequalities foment terror far more effectively than lax banking laws.’_
_‘Evidence of lax security is indisputable, however.’_
_‘He told police that security there was so lax others had already successfully targeted it before him.’_
_‘Delay, impractical documentary formalities, lax enforcement, continuing widespread visibility of piracy and the export of pirated goods remain concerns.’_
*slack*, slipshod, negligent, neglectful, remiss, careless, heedless, unmindful, inattentive, slapdash, offhand, casual
View synonyms




2.1 (of the bowels) loose.

_‘The unfortunate offset was that the hydronically excited children became rather lax in the bladder department, and messy assisted toilet trips were required.’_

2.2Phonetics (of a speech sound, especially a vowel) pronounced with the vocal muscles relaxed.
_‘the merger of tense and lax vowels before ‘l’’_
The opposite of tense
_‘In view of the time required to move to more peripheral vowel positions, tense vowels tend to be peripheral and lax vowels closer to schwa, the neutral or central vowel.’_




*Origin*
Late Middle English (in the sense ‘loose’, said of the bowels): from Latin laxus.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> My standard is soft compared to the examiner who (incorrectly) failed a student because of his shoulders...



To be fair, you're only _conjecturing_ that the failure was incorrectly given. Posing in front of a mirror might give a person a useful data point, but for all you know the shoulders actually WERE stiff, and the photograph just didn't do a good job of explaining that.

To your original point, the examiner is a trained examiner with a lot of experience. He knows what he's looking for, across lots of different body types. He's seen lots of students with narrow shoulders, broad shoulders, and everything in between. Which scenario seems more likely: that he's wrong, despite his years of experience, or that the shoulders really were stiff?


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Tez3 said:


> Given the etymology of the word 'lax' I think I can safely say that what you write here is BS.


Good thing he didn't use the word "good".


----------



## Axiom

TrueJim said:


> To be fair, you're only _conjecturing_ that the failure was incorrectly given. Posing in front of a mirror might give a person a useful data point, but for all you know the shoulders actually WERE stiff, and the photograph just didn't do a good job of explaining that.
> 
> To your original point, the examiner is a trained examiner with a lot of experience. He knows what he's looking for, across lots of different body types. He's seen lots of students with narrow shoulders, broad shoulders, and everything in between. Which scenario seems more likely: that he's wrong, despite his years of experience, or that the shoulders really were stiff?



I find it more likely that he knows his own shoulders better than a one-time examiner.


----------



## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> Aren't you affiliated with the KKW? The conditions clearly state the objective is to break the board.



I am affiliated with the Kukkiwon, I'm a KMS member, certified Poom/Dan Examiner and certified 2nd Class Master Instructor.

The Kukkiwon regulations don't state that. Under Article 12, Section 2 for Kyukpa it says the scoring criteria is:

Eye Control
Balance
Power Control
Speed
Part of Attack
"World Culture Taekwondo! Kukkiwon will make it"

There's no criteria listed for "did the board actually break?"

When I did the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner course in 2015, the lecturer did say that if during a grading a board didn't break then the entire test should be a failure. There was literally uproar in the room, with I would say a good 80% of the 150 attendees disagreed with it and we made it known to the examiner. We asked him to tell us where this was stated in the regulations and he said he could not, but that's how he judged candidates (so maybe it was just his personal opinion). He also then said (paraphrasing) that as masters and representatives of the Kukkiwon we trust your judgement in determining how to pass candidates on this.

I had an ex-Member of the Kukkiwon Demonstration Team over in July to stay with us. He put on a few demos and didn't manage to break 100% of the boards. Should he have failed a dan grading? Because in every area (including kyukpa) he is EXCEPTIONAL! Sometimes though the board just doesn't break (maybe a damp board, maybe the holders didn't hold it firmly, maybe the kicker has a slight injury that day).


----------



## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then.



I don't have mind there being an objective of breaking a board, but it doesn't mean the whole grading is a failure if that objective isn't met. For example, the objective for my students could be worded as "Using the correct technique well performed, with good eye control, balance, power control, speed and the correct striking part, while demonstrating good spirit and martial arts attitude, break the board". Breaking the board is only one part of the objective not the only part, so failing to break a piece of wood wouldn't be enough to drop the student's mark below the 60% pass mark.



Axiom said:


> That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would  you agree?



I didn't see the problem raised about Shotokan, but if you're talking about the shoulder position or individuality expressed in kata, then I would say that the former is a problem (if it's genuinely down to the person's build, not just tension) and the later should not be allowed.

I'm a stickler for accuracy though, if I don't know a detail about poomsae, then I'll ask someone higher than me (if necessary going all the way to the Kwanjangnim of Changmookwan, or a senior examiner/instructor at Kukkiwon). Once I know that detail then I'll try to teach it and later judge my students on if they know it. I don't think poomsae is a vehicle in Kukkiwon Taekwondo for practitioners to express individuality. Sparring is there for that, poomsae is about understanding how power is developed in Taekwondo movements and learning to follow strict standards well, so you can pass them on to future generations.


----------



## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> There's no criteria listed for "did the board actually break?"
> .



It's labelled *breaking*! What is the Korean translation of breaking in KKW?


----------



## Axiom

As for the stance thing, yes I know the stances in TKD. I'm a technique nerd. I hopefully know something after training 3 times a week for 4 years.


----------



## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> I don't have mind there being an objective of breaking a board, but it doesn't mean the whole grading is a failure if that objective isn't met. For example, the objective for my students could be worded as "Using the correct technique well performed, with good eye control, balance, power control, speed and the correct striking part, while demonstrating good spirit and martial arts attitude, break the board". Breaking the board is only one part of the objective not the only part, so failing to break a piece of wood wouldn't be enough to drop the student's mark below the 60% pass mark.
> .



If the technique is properly executed, the board will break. I don't understand how you can bypass that fact in a grading. If it doesn't, something is clearly done wrong. That is the student lacks power and/or technique.


----------



## Tez3

You've got to love it when a student tells a respected senior instructor where he's going wrong.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I find it more likely that he knows his own shoulders better than a one-time examiner.


I find some students have a terrible lack of self-awareness both in and out of the dojang.

My money's on the instructor (the one with the experience and qualifications in what is being tested) being right.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> If the technique is properly executed, the board will break. I don't understand how you can bypass that fact in a grading. If it doesn't, something is clearly done wrong. That is the student lacks power and/or technique.


IF (big if, given we know nothing else) we eliminate the other possible causes of failure (resistant board, bad hold, etc.), that would leave there being something wrong on the student's end. As Andy pointed out, that might not be enough of an error to cause failure of the test.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Belts denote time spent in an art. Second dan entails 2 years spent since first dan. A third dan 3 years from the second dan. etc
> 
> It is assumed that this correlates with ability, but that is an oversimplification.



Maybe in your school. Certainly NOT in ours. Handing out black belts as participation awards is one of the cardinal signs of a McDojang.



Axiom said:


> Perfectionist in class/training and in gradings are two separate things.



No, they are not.



Axiom said:


> The patterns get progressively harder and no, a beginner can not perform higher pattern movements correctly. I can perform the moves accurately, including aerial kicks. I am therefore by the book, a legit soon to be black belt.



Not when you demonstrate an utter and complete lack of understanding of the principals behind the movements, you're not. Dan rank is more than just being able to mimic movements. Our 1st Dans are expected to display understanding of WHY the movement is taught the way it is. You seem to lack that understanding. You'd fail, in our school, regardless of how long you'd been training.



Axiom said:


> It can be unreasonably strict as well. There are accounts of Karate gradings in which students fail black tests because of petty details relating to distance between the feet, exact angles, despite having excellent striking techniques. That's just as unfair as the laxed gradings, IMO.



And this is why you'd fail to meet our standards.


----------



## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Only internationally. We see black belts as experts in the west, but in Korea they're competent beginners. Instructor level begins at 4th Dan in the eyes of the founders.



Your founders. In the eyes of ours, 1st Dan is instructor level.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.



Some, perhaps. Those at your school, apparently. But this is certainly not universally true.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?
> 
> Stop fixating on belts.



Perhaps their school has some standard for promotion that is a little more demanding than just putting in X amount of time...



Axiom said:


> You need to memorize the patterns of course, but supposing you do that the belt is yours.



There is an awful lot more to poomsae than memorizing the movements. This is a detail that has clearly slipped past you.



Axiom said:


> That's not the point. Point is I stuck with it for 5 years and did my best. It's a bit like getting a grade. You pass a test just as much with an E as an A.



Participation awards are worthless. Belts given out simply due to time in rank and equally worthless. 



Axiom said:


> The patterns get progressively harder and no, a beginner can not perform higher pattern movements correctly. I can perform the moves accurately, including aerial kicks. I am therefore by the book, a legit soon to be black belt.



A beginner may very well perform movements from higher patterns correctly. The difference between them and someone who has earned promotion is their understanding of the principals behind the movement.


----------



## TrueJim

Once I started learning "sports poomsae" (for example, to help our team prepare to compete in Nationals) I had the same reaction as Master Chuang at the 2 minute mark of this video:






There is so much to know. Even just to perform the Taegeuk properly in a "sports" style at the National level -- holy cow. The debates I've seen about what's the "right" way to transition from one stance to another -- wow this stuff gets deep fast. But when people are doing it the "right" way (and I mean in a "sports" definition of "right") -- wow does it look good.  

There's a lot more to poomsae than just knowing the movements -- a lot more. Even leaving "applications" aside, just sticking to the nuances of the movements themselves -- there's a lot to know.


----------



## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> I would have said that the year before I finished testing for mine. I knew the tests, and knew I'd be able to pass them all. It wasn't a matter of "no matter what" - I just knew my own capabilities and the requirements that had been set. If something changed (I was injured, requirements changed, etc.), then my answer might have changed.


Yeah but look at the thread he doesn't know it because of his ability he knows it because everyone who does 5 years is guaranteed a black belt no matter how bad their skills are


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but look at the thread he doesn't know it because of his ability he knows it because everyone who does 5 years is guaranteed a black belt no matter how bad their skills are


My response wasn't to him having said it, but to the comment that you hate it when people say that they will get their belt.


----------



## Gnarlie

TrueJim said:


> Once I started learning "sports poomsae" (for example, to help our team prepare to compete in Nationals) I had the same reaction as Master Chuang at the 2 minute mark of this video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is so much to know. Even just to perform the Taegeuk properly in a "sports" style at the National level -- holy cow. The debates I've seen about what's the "right" way to transition from one stance to another -- wow this stuff gets deep fast. But when people are doing it the "right" way (and I mean in a "sports" definition of "right") -- wow does it look good.
> 
> There's a lot more to poomsae than just knowing the movements -- a lot more. Even leaving "applications" aside, just sticking to the nuances of the movements themselves -- there's a lot to know.


This reflects my experience too. The shift in focus towards sports definitions in poomsae and demonstration level techniques in recent years has made the sport much more demanding even at the grass roots level. It's also made those who seek out the source of information stand out from the crowd. I look forward to seeing how the new wave of SD and application focus develops. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## TrueJim

Gnarlie said:


> It's also made those who seek out the source of information stand out from the crowd...



My experience has been that there's a lot of "hard to find" information in sports poomsae. For example in the US, the national-level judges interpret the Low Cross Block as an Augmented Low Block, meaning the blocking arm is over the knee (not centered) and it's turned downward (not inward). As near as I can tell, information like this isn't written down anywhere...it's folklore that you can learn only by talking to people who are "in the know" -- judges, coaches, elite athletes, etc. I find the folklore aspect of elite competition a bit disconcerting.


----------



## JR 137

This "split" thread has gone so many way, I don't know if what I'm about to say is relevant, but here goes...

@Axiom
Is the time in grade a minimum?  Or just a set in stone "you'll promote every X months/years (years at dan level)?

What if someone gets promoted, shows up for a week, then doesn't train for 5 months, and comes back for a week; will he/she automatically promote because he/she's been whatever colored belt for the 6 month period?  Assuming the student has paid tuition for the full duration, of course.  And testing fees.

My school has minimum time in grade policies.  But they're usually minimum.  I say usually, because someone with prior experience can promote sooner at the CI's discretion.

But the "time in grade" isn't specifically number of days, months, etc.; it's number of classes, and the timeframe is an average.  So from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu, the minimum is 60 classes/6 months; from 2nd kyu-1st kyu is 80 classes/8 months; 2nd - 1st is 100 classes/12 months.

Those are MINIMUMS.  And the classes attended need to be consistent.  And there's no guarantee whatsoever that you'll test once you have enough time/classes.

There's a guy who "trains" at our dojo.  Great guy.  Not a bad karateka at all either.  But he comes for a week or so, leaves for 7-8 months, comes back for a few days, repeat.  He's been a 3rd kyu since I've been there, going on 3 years.  Last time he was there, he was joking around with my teacher (in a good way) that he's been a 3rd kyu for going on 7 years.  Apparently he was very consistent for a few years, left at one grade, returned at the same rank a year later, was consistent for another 2 years, then started his current training pattern.  If there was no minimum class amount and consistency in time in grade, he'd be at about 4th dan now if he showed up on the right days and was passed for showing up.

Edit: Minimum time in grade and classes attended is for kyu grades.  Dan grades don't count their classes, but they've got minimum time in grade and consistency in training requirements.  And minimum time in grad is HIGHLY optimistic; very, very few black belts promote right after the minimum.  I'd say they average a little over a year past the minimum before my CI even starts to think about recommending them for promotion, and even longer than that when they're nearing 4th dan and up.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe in your school. Certainly NOT in ours. Handing out black belts as participation awards is one of the cardinal signs of a McDojang.
> 
> 
> 
> No, they are not.
> 
> 
> 
> Not when you demonstrate an utter and complete lack of understanding of the principals behind the movements, you're not. Dan rank is more than just being able to mimic movements. Our 1st Dans are expected to display understanding of WHY the movement is taught the way it is. You seem to lack that understanding. You'd fail, in our school, regardless of how long you'd been training.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is why you'd fail to meet our standards.



Why do you attack me? I'm just the messenger of the status quo. I've got nothing to do with it. Attack the instructor instead if you got a problem with it.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> status quo.




 My OH loves them, plays in the car when on his own!


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Why do you attack me? I'm just the messenger of the status quo. I've got nothing to do with it. Attack the instructor instead if you got a problem with it.



Actually you are a lot to do with it. If it is a participation award you are complicit in that sham because you don't walk away and find a place where you have to work for your belt.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Some, perhaps. Those at your school, apparently. But this is certainly not universally true.



Yeah well that school is a run by master higher ranked than you (9th dan), the president of ITF in my country, and technical advisor to the national team ( selected by General Choi, mind you),so if that's a Mcdojo, God help the rest of them.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Actually you are a lot to do with it. If it is a participation award you are complicit in that sham because you don't walk away and find a place where you have to work for your belt.



I don't mind getting a free black belt.

Btw, people have forgotten their forms during gradings and still been awarded the belt. (Just to rub in).

I will inform the angry mod (lol) who this person is if I he wants to alert the "Taekwondo police" and shut the place down.

Don't think I don't have the balls to do it.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I don't mind getting a free black belt.
> 
> Btw, people have forgotten their forms during gradings and still been awarded the belt. (Just to rub in).
> 
> .



My self respect wouldn't allow me to get a grade, any grade, without working hard and doing my best. How strange though that you slag off Shotokan as being slack with their grading standards yet you boast how you don't have to work for your belt.



Axiom said:


> Yeah well that school is a run by master higher ranked than you (9th dan), the president of ITF in my country, and technical advisor to the national team ( selected by General Choi, mind you),so if that's a Mcdojo, God help the rest of them.



What makes you think 'high rank' makes one impervious to greed, indolence and hubris? As we don't know what country you come from we have no way of knowing whether your national team is any good or not so what you are saying means nothing.



Axiom said:


> I will provide the angry mod (lol) with who this person is if I he wants to alert the "Taekwondo police" and shut the place down.
> 
> Don't think I don't have the balls to do it.



Try posting it up here instead so we can all see.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> What makes you think 'high rank' makes one impervious to greed, indolence and hubris? As we don't know what country you come from we have no way of knowing whether your national team is any good or not so what you are saying means nothing.
> .



You couldn't be more right. I know there are other grandmasters around running Mcdojos, but I just hate it when other instructors take blame the student card, when I have participated and witnessed gradings for 4 years, including black belt ones, and all it is ceremonies at my place. What I get in return is an attack on my comprehension skills, and ignorance on the subject, despite the fact that its the instructors fault. I just pay a fee and do what he tells me to.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> My self respect wouldn't allow me to get a grade, any grade, without working hard and doing my best. How strange though that you slag off Shotokan as being slack with their grading standards yet you boast how you don't have to work for your belt.



Ehm no, I did the exact opposite. Shotokan is waay too strict for a mere Shodan. It's literal meaning is even beginning degree black belt!


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I just pay a fee and do what he tells me to.



So you take no responsibility for your own training. If the gradings are a sham and the training poor why are you still with them? I think you need to think long and deeply about why you are training martial arts and what you are willing to do to call yourself a black belt.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Ehm no, I did the exact opposite. Shotokan is waay too strict for a mere Shodan. It's literal meaning is even beginning degree black belt!



In your opinion.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> So you take no responsibility for your own training. If the gradings are a sham and the training poor why are you still with them? I think you need to think long and deeply about why you are training martial arts and what you are willing to do to call yourself a black belt.



Doesn't mean I don't improve. That being said, I do seriously concider joing a boxing gym instead. I dislike the incoherence that plagues the ITF , and I still love the traditional stuff but to first have traditional forms,, then being taught "boxing" against mitts, and then suddenly doing kickboxing sparring (completely unrelated to the other two, mind you) is a bit frustrating.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I dislike the incoherence that plagues the ITF



I'm not TKD so have little idea of it's politics etc but are you sure it's the ITF that's to blame and not the part you are in? 



Axiom said:


> but to first have traditional forms,, then being taught "boxing" against mitts, and then suddenly doing kickboxing sparring (completely unrelated to the other two, mind you) is a bit frustrating.



To be honest I can't see the problem, in karate we use mitts and kick bags, we do traditional kata and we do what you would probably think of as kickboxing sparring. I say what you'd think of because you know kickboxing is derived from karate ( and TKD by the fact that it came from 'karate') so it's no coincidence that sparring looks like 'kick boxing'.
Kickboxing - Kicks Brighton

The TKD places I have been to and I used to train at a friend of mine's TKD club (I didn't train TKD so much as come to spar with the students so they could see a female black belt albeit in another style) and the sparring was much the same as it was in any karate and kickboxing club.
I think you may be confusing Olympic type sparring with the sparring everyone else does. I know that everywhere you look there's videos of Olympic sparring, high kicks only basically foot sparring but when I've visited clubs or been to multi style seminars etc the TKD guys can spar what I would call properly, hand strikes as well as kicks. They can hold their own with any kickboxer or karateka because it's basically the same sparring, there's a slight variation in how kicks or strikes are done according to what discipline you are doing but basically its the same sparring. I have also trained a lot of TSD (I have a Dan grade in that and Wado Ryu) and again I can spar the same way in both disciplines.
TKD ( non Olympic sparring)  people because they are strong on their kicks do tend to do them more ( obviously, you always use what is strongest for you) but don't seem to have any trouble coming in close when necessary as well as using the jab, cross and uppercut. they can use elbows and knees as far as I've seen as well. The rules for Olympic sparring preclude them but doesn't mean they don't know how and can use them in class sparring.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> I'from 'karate') so it's no coincidence that sparring looks like 'kick boxing'.
> Kickboxing - Kicks Brighton
> 
> The TKD places I have been to and I used to train at a friend of mine's TKD club (I didn't train TKD so much as come to spar with the students so they could see a female black belt albeit in another style) and the sparring was much the same as it was in any karate and kickboxing club.
> I think you may be confusing Olympic type sparring with the sparring everyone else does. I know that everywhere you look there's videos of Olympic sparring, high kicks only basically foot sparring but when I've visited clubs or been to multi style seminars etc the TKD guys can spar what I would call properly, hand strikes as well as kicks. They can hold their own with any kickboxer or karateka because it's basically the same sparring, there's a slight variation in how kicks or strikes are done according to what discipline you are doing but basically its the same sparring. I have also trained a lot of TSD (I have a Dan grade in that and Wado Ryu) and again I can spar the same way in both disciplines.
> TKD ( non Olympic sparring)  people because they are strong on their kicks do tend to do them more ( obviously, you always use what is strongest for you) but don't seem to have any trouble coming in close when necessary as well as using the jab, cross and uppercut. they can use elbows and knees as far as I've seen as well. The rules for Olympic sparring preclude them but doesn't mean they don't know how and can use them in class sparring.



I don't know how to explain it but the  ITF has a different set of rules from the Olympics, among them allowing face punches. Now this sounds great in theory but the result is just a messy brawl. You are not allowed to throw combos longer than two punches, hooks are prohibited, as are uppercuts. This results in the most prevalent punch utilized being the superman punch, and this punch is not in our forms at all and is the very opposite of what a person would concider "good form."

The sparring is completely disconnected from the rest of the training. The mitts training includes  hooks, crosses, uppercuts, turning your hole body into the mitts. And then we step into a sparring format where all of this is prohibited.


----------



## JR 137

@Axiom 

I emphasize with your frustration.  In your shoes I'd be pretty aggravated.  But here's the thing...

It doesn't matter what belt anyone else is wearing and what they did and didn't do to wear it.  A woman/girl (I can't remember, but I think it was a female) passed a grading even though she didn't break the required boards.  Others haven't completed their forms, botched them, etc.; others just show up once in a while and test and pass.  So what?  What's that got to do with you and just as importantly your abilities?  How does anyone else's work ethic make any difference in your progress?  I talked about a guy at my dojo who's been a 3rd kyu for about 7 years because he's inconsistent in his training.  If he was in your dojang and reached 4th dan with his lack of dedication, what exactly does that change in YOUR training?

Sure, it'll give you a feeling that everyone else's belt is worthless and yours is by association, but what else?  Do you want the belt so you can wave it around to your friends and family who don't know any better?  Do you want the satisfaction of saying "I'm a black belt" out loud?

I was promoted to 1st dan in 1999.  I thought it would be this magical and mystical thing that would transform me into some super karateka.  Ok, I exaggerated a little, but you get where I'm going.  Half way through my first black belts only class it became painfully obvious (figuratively and literally) that I had this belt on a pedestal.  I was still just JR. I was pretty good and worked my butt off to earn it.  The belt was pretty far from being an attendance award in every way.

What's my point?  Me wearing it didn't make me better nor worse.  And the guys and ladies standing on either side of me didn't make my belt better nor worse either.  I stopped chasing rank.  I stopped caring about what I wore around my waist.  I realized that my belt had nothing to do with what I knew and could and couldn't do.  I stopped caring about my belt and everyone else's belt, and put all that energy into just getting better.

I left karate for almost 15 years, and restarted 2 and a half years ago.  I started at white belt.  I tested for every rank so far.  If all goes well, I SHOULD (  ) be up for promotion around December/January.  I look forward to the test, but I really don't care about the new belt.  All it'll say is I passed.  It won't make me better.  If I'm the lowest rank or the highest, it won't matter one bit.  It'll tell my teachers where I am in the curriculum and it'll help keep my gi closed.  And it's not that effective at with or those, because I know most of the 1st dan syllabus anyway.

But here's the interesting thing - I'm far better as now as a 3rd kyu than I ever was as a 1st dan.  And I'm 20 years older.  The old black belt means as much as my current advanced green belt, and as much as the brown belt I'll get when I eventually pass that test.

Forget about your and everyone else's rank.  Chase improvement.  If you fixate on that, you'll do great.  Fixate on anyone else, and you'll just waste too much energy that could've been used elsewhere.

Sorry for the long story and pep talk.


----------



## JR 137

Sorry... in my long post above I forgot to mention that the ONLY way you should be concerned about anyone else is if there's enough people to train with that are capable of helping you improve, and if the people teaching  you are capable of helping you improve.

If there isn't, move on.  If there is enough of both, keep on keepin' on.


----------



## Steve

Personally, I think it's up to each school and/or system to decide what they want their standards to be.  If a black belt to you means you are excellent at 9 different kata (however you decide to gauge "excellence") and be able to do 100 burpees, great.  If you think that a black belt should be able to hogtie a calf in less than 15 seconds, terrific.  Go nuts.

The key is that standards should be transparent, measurable and objective. 

This goes for everything.  Employees performance ratings, parenting, education, coaching... you name it. 

I just have no use for this idea that a black belt SHOULD be one thing or another.


----------



## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> @Axiom
> 
> 
> Sure, it'll give you a feeling that everyone else's belt is worthless and yours is by association, but what else?  Do you want the belt so you can wave it around to your friends and family who don't know any better?  Do you want the satisfaction of saying "I'm a black belt" out loud?
> .



I know that I deserve it since I can do the moves required. The standards being non existent in my club to get it doesn't affect me. If I couldn't perform moves better than a complete amateur, and showed no progress from 5 years ago ,I wouldn't feel it's worthwile, but now I think it is.


----------



## Flying Crane

MA_Student said:


> Frankly it shouldn't be easy at all to get a black belt you definentely shouldn't be knowing a year in advance when you're guaranteed to test and guaranteed you'll pass. It's things like that that's bringing down traditional martial arts. I'm only 21 so I haven't been around it since the beginning but frankly I wish I had because I'd have preferred it then to what it is now. These days you tell someone you're a black belt people's reaction would be oh cool yeah so is my brother, my sister, my cousin, 5 of my friends and my uncles dog. In some places it's ridiculous easy to get one. I know for a fact I worked my *** off for mine I trained 5 days a week in classes and practiced every day so it makes me sick to see people who just stroll in after not having trained for 3 months and get a black belt in 20 minutes (not even joking I know one guy at a different school to me did a black belt grading in 20 minutes)


Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.


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## Axiom

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.



Some people pass up on gradings. I guess I could too but it's so ingrained in TaeKwondo that I want every part of the tradition. It would be like training without a dobok (uniform).


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## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> Sorry... in my long post above I forgot to mention that the ONLY way you should be concerned about anyone else is if there's enough people to train with that are capable of helping you improve, and if the people teaching  you are capable of helping you improve.
> 
> If there isn't, move on.  If there is enough of both, keep on keepin' on.



Yeah but I  think easy belts does directly effect the training.

I think some method of progression having an importance attached. Reflects the amount of professionalism that is present in the training itself.

This is why I train in a fight gym. Because people take the training seriously.

This flowed straight over to the beej. And whether anyone gets a rank they may not deserve. People take that seriously.


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## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.



There is also an understanding that everyone is not a martial arts training machine. Sometimes we need a colored piece of cloth for motivation.


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## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Yeah but I  think easy belts does directly effect the training.
> .



I can assure you that it doesn't. When it comes to the conditioning, my club is in good shape. We have some classes for 30 minutes having only conditioning. Although the funny thing is that you never know when they show up, so you better train consistently to be ready for such days.


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## JR 137

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.


Belts aren't silly, using them as a dangled carrot is silly.  Using them to define yourself is silly.  Using them to let everyone know you're cool is silly.

It's not the belt; it's the idiot envying it.

Belts are great.  They let my teacher know where I am in the curriculum (although we're small enough so that's not necessarily).  If I visit any affiliated dojo, including my teacher's teacher's dojo, whoever's teaching instantly knows what standards to hold me to.  Same thing if I attend a seminar, tournament, etc.

Belts are fine.  It's being stupid ABOUT belts that's just... well... stupid.

Edit:  belts are great for kids.  If that's what it takes to properly motivate a kid and get him/her off the couch and into the dojo, I'm all for it.  Adults are a different matter.


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## JR 137

drop bear said:


> Yeah but I  think easy belts does directly effect the training.
> 
> I think some method of progression having an importance attached. Reflects the amount of professionalism that is present in the training itself.
> 
> This is why I train in a fight gym. Because people take the training seriously.
> 
> This flowed straight over to the beej. And whether anyone gets a rank they may not deserve. People take that seriously.


Great points.  That's why I said if there's people there that'll make him better, then it's a non-issue.  If he's like Kramer dominating the dojo, then there's issues.  Funny issues, but issues nonetheless.


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## JR 137

Axiom said:


> I know that I deserve it since I can do the moves required. The standards being non existent in my club to get it doesn't affect me. If I couldn't perform moves better than a complete amateur, and showed no progress from 5 years ago ,I wouldn't feel it's worthwile, but now I think it is.


That's what it's really all about.  Just remember the issues you addressed are minor annoyances, and you'll do fine.


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## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.


There are appropriate and useful purposes for ranks other than the negative ones you ascribe.  for a guy who has vehemently argued that people train for many reasons, you're being strangely judgemental.


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## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.


What's actually silly about testing? Because a belt is just an indicator of what testing or evaluation a person has succeeded at. Very few people I know were often motivated by the belt (often when reaching for BB, but rarely, otherwise). The belt serves its purpose within the school and association. It's not necessary, but useful. Why is that silly?


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## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> ‘lax security arrangements at the airport’


I wonder if the Los Angeles International Airport had LAX security?


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## RTKDCMB

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated. Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway. I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way. Belts are silly.


That way might be a bit difficult in practice when you are part of a large organization with 20 or more schools in the area and 10 -30 students per class. Belts make it easier to tell which student is at what level of training.


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## drop bear

A lot of goals are pretty transient and superficial though. Say I climb Everest. In reality so what?

But I would still hang the photo of that on my wall. And appreciate that I did it.

If Everest had an elevator. Then the photo wouldn't matter so much.


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## MA_Student

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated.  Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway.  I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way.  Belts are silly.


Wow that's a very arrogant view...people are motivated by different reasons and there reasons and their reasons are just as legitimate as yours


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I don't know how to explain it but the ITF has a different set of rules from the Olympics, among them allowing face punches. Now this sounds great in theory but the result is just a messy brawl. You are not allowed to throw combos longer than two punches, hooks are prohibited, as are uppercuts. This results in the most prevalent punch utilized being the superman punch, and this punch is not in our forms at all and is the very opposite of what a person would concider "good form."





Can anyone tell us whether this is what ITF rules are and it's normal for all ITF classes or whether this is peculiar to Axiom's class and instructors?

Strikes don't have to be in the forms to be utilised, we have a lot that aren't in kata that we use. Kata is for a specific purpose, as is sparring the two aren't the same thing.


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## Tez3

Malos1979 said:


> Rules  –  International Taekwon-Do Federation



Thank you, I couldn't find any specific rules for what techniques can be used though just the designation 'legal moves, it seems all the techniques that can be used are in an 'encyclopaedia'. It's also for competitions rather than the curriculum if there is one that used by all? Looking at it reminded me that Axiom has never mentioned competitions, perhaps he can tell us if it is a club for competitors more than just training in TKD? I did find this online, something an Australian lady had written for her black belt test. It's interesting so more and more I'm thinking that Axiom's class and instructor as described by him perhaps aren't the norm in ITF. http://taekwondo.wisebytes.net/bb_thesis.pdf


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## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> It's labelled *breaking*! What is the Korean translation of breaking in KKW?



To be honest, I'm not close to competent in Korean enough to know, having only been learning the language for three years (not Taekwondo terms, but actually learning Korean). I'm only an intermediate speaker/reader/writer and an awful listener ;-)

The simple dictionary translation of kyukpa/격파 means destruction/annihilation. However, that doesn't mean that destruction/annihilation of the target is the only criteria. For example, a nuclear missile's purpose is to obliterate a target and to leave a long last post-impact devastation effect. That doesn't mean you can't have a successful nuclear missile test without obliterating a target (e.g if you aim at sea, it will have a temporary effect, but maybe not obliteration of that area of the sea because the water will flood/fall back immediately).

For example, most people translate kyeorugi/겨루기 as "fighting" or "sparring", but in fact it just means "competing or matching ones strength with the opponent". And that's from my Mac's built in dictionary (kyeoruda/겨루다 the verb which it comes from), I'm sure if I understood enough Korean, I could research the etymology of the word, but there's certainly more to it than a word word answer or simple concept.

Similar to how Tae-kwon-do is often translated as "foot-fist-way", but each word has a much larger conceptual meaning than that (which I'm not going to bother typing out).

So, regardless of what the literal translation of breaking or kyukpa is, you have to look for the wider context of why you're doing it, what it means in the context of Taekwondo and therefore determine your success criteria for your students (when you're a high enough grade to have them and promote them).


----------



## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> If the technique is properly executed, the board will break. I don't understand how you can bypass that fact in a grading. If it doesn't, something is clearly done wrong. That is the student lacks power and/or technique.



Already explained - there are multiple reasons that the board doesn't break, aside from the student lacking power or correct technique.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> Your founders. In the eyes of ours, 1st Dan is instructor level.



When I was referring to the founders, I meant the founders of Taekwondo, rather than an individual dojang/association.

If you consider it to be the kwans/Kukkiwon in Korea, then you have to be a 4th Dan to graduate from the Master Instructor Course (and can't even attend it as a 1st Dan, let alone graduate/qualify).

If you consider it to be the ITF/General Choi, then they also consider it to be 4th Dan (page 123 of General Choi's Encyclopaedia, Volume 1).


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## andyjeffries

JR 137 said:


> It doesn't matter what belt anyone else is wearing and what they did and didn't do to wear it.  A woman/girl (I can't remember, but I think it was a female) passed a grading even though she didn't break the required boards.  Others haven't completed their forms, botched them, etc.; others just show up once in a while and test and pass.  So what?  What's that got to do with you and just as importantly your abilities?  How does anyone else's work ethic make any difference in your progress?.



^ That exactly that ^

I liked your post, but if there was a love button, I'd have clicked that instead. Honestly, exactly what you wrote above is how I feel.

I'm not being bigheaded, but I know the standard in my school is way above national average (I've been to other schools, been to national dan gradings and seen the standard there, I've had students go to Korea and do the Master Instructor Course and only need a few minor tweaks).

Does that affect the value my students and I place on our ranks, hell no! It doesn't devalue them in any way. What other people do is up to them. I know I'm at the standard where my instructor gave me the grade I am. Other people know how good he is, so they know I met his standard. My students have to meet the standard I set, hopefully in the future my reputation for standards and teaching will match my instructor's, but until then I worry about my standard and my students, they worry about their own standard (and not their classmates') and none of us worry about whatever anyone else's standard is.


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## Tez3

If you want correct translation of Korean to English and vice versa we have someone here who can do that    
@KangTsai


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## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> Already explained - there are multiple reasons that the board doesn't break, aside from the student lacking power or correct technique.



I must have missed that class. How could a student fail to break it without doing something wrong? It isn't a measure of power, and failing at that elementary level is pretty dreadful IMO


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## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I must have missed that class. How could a student fail to break it without doing something wrong? It isn't a measure of power, and failing at that elementary level is pretty dreadful IMO


A couple of us already posted about that.


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## JR 137

drop bear said:


> A lot of goals are pretty transient and superficial though. Say I climb Everest. In reality so what?
> 
> But I would still hang the photo of that on my wall. And appreciate that I did it.
> 
> If Everest had an elevator. Then the photo wouldn't matter so much.


But if no one knew there was an elevator, it would make you look cool.

Kind of like a black belt that's a participation award, but people don't know that.


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## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> To be honest, I'm not close to competent in Korean enough to know, having only been learning the language for three years (not Taekwondo terms, but actually learning Korean). I'm only an intermediate speaker/reader/writer and an awful listener ;-)
> 
> The simple dictionary translation of kyukpa/격파 means destruction/annihilation. However, that doesn't mean that destruction/annihilation of the target is the only criteria. For example, a nuclear missile's purpose is to obliterate a target and to leave a long last post-impact devastation effect. That doesn't mean you can't have a successful nuclear missile test without obliterating a target (e.g if you aim at sea, it will have a temporary effect, but maybe not obliteration of that area of the sea because the water will flood/fall back immediately).
> 
> For example, most people translate kyeorugi/겨루기 as "fighting" or "sparring", but in fact it just means "competing or matching ones strength with the opponent". And that's from my Mac's built in dictionary (kyeoruda/겨루다 the verb which it comes from), I'm sure if I understood enough Korean, I could research the etymology of the word, but there's certainly more to it than a word word answer or simple concept.
> 
> Similar to how Tae-kwon-do is often translated as "foot-fist-way", but each word has a much larger conceptual meaning than that (which I'm not going to bother typing out).
> 
> So, regardless of what the literal translation of breaking or kyukpa is, you have to look for the wider context of why you're doing it, what it means in the context of Taekwondo and therefore determine your success criteria for your students (when you're a high enough grade to have them and promote them).



 This discussion about semantics is an insult to both of us. I will leave it at that. Sad is all.


----------



## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> This discussion about semantics is an insult to both of us. I will leave it at that. Sad is all.



It's not an insult to either of us, but then maybe you missed the point. You took a word in one language and made it seem as if simply using an approximate translated word in another language means that the area of study (and breaking is an area of studying, I know one late American grandmaster that wrote two whole books on the subject himself) becomes a simple concept. Languages often don't have an exact equivalent, there's an embedded history to how the word was used and is currently used that simply translating between languages without bearing in mind the culture isn't useful.

I'm happy to keep discussing this whole topic with you as we've had different experiences and have different points of view, but if you say something that isn't valid/useful (and I explain why I feel that way) and you just reply with "I will leave it at that. Sad is all", then there's not much point in engaging in the discussion.


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## Flying Crane

RTKDCMB said:


> That way might be a bit difficult in practice when you are part of a large organization with 20 or more schools in the area and 10 -30 students per class. Belts make it easier to tell which student is at what level of training.


In my opinion, a large organization like that is often a big part of the problem.


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## Flying Crane

MA_Student said:


> Wow that's a very arrogant view...people are motivated by different reasons and there reasons and their reasons are just as legitimate as yours


Of course they are.  I shared my opinion, as you have shared yours.  It's all good.  That's all we are doing here, is sharing opinions.  Nobody is changing the world through Martialtalk.com.

I believe belts are a waste and a distraction.  You believe otherwise.  I don't have a problem with that.  Do you?


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> This discussion about semantics is an insult to both of us



I'm amused by the idea that because someone wrote something you don't like he's 'insulting' himself. He didn't actually insult you either.

I di break some roof tiles once when we were having a demo at a charity fair but what I actually know about breaking is 'hammerfist here' and I broke the tiles  so when someone who obviously knows writes about breaking I don't contradict or argue with them. I might ask questions and I will admit I can't see the attraction in breaking wood but that's neither here nor there. When an expert tells you something, you listen and learn, you can try things out for yourself to verify what they say or you can just accept it, which is what I will do when Andy is talking breaking...cos he knows better than I do.


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## TrueJim

Flying Crane said:


> In my opinion, a large organization like that is often a big part of the problem.



You know, that's actually a great question. The school I attend is relatively large, with nearly 600 students in total (if you count the after-care programs and the summer camp programs, along with the conventional evening taekwondo classes). We have 4 schools here in the US but we're affiliated with about a hundred schools over in South Korea (the "MBA" franchise in South Korea). Our busiest class during the week is the Wednesday evening "All Belts" class in which we can have as many as 80 students in a class. (Though a class size of 30ish is more typical for us.) During our busy classes, the use of _belts_ certainly helps us divide into groups quickly for curriculum practice. 

Being a large schools offers us some advantages:

Of course there's the obvious _economic_ advantages: the economies of scale. We can afford to do things like host big regional tournaments by virtue of our size (the D.C. TKD Open & Kukkiwon Cup is coming up soon) or even have large production runs of our own internal brand of uniforms (네이버 지도). 
We're large enough to have a number of "special teams" that help with longer-term student retention, by maintaining students' interest past black-belt (a demo team, leadership team, competition team, tkd video club, etc.) 
We have a "deep bench" of instructors, so a big chunk of the school can go away (like, to a tournament) while still leaving a good-sized cadre of instructors at home to carry on. 
Our adult population (both practitioners and parents) is so large that we also have a "deep bench" of specialized skills we can draw upon (IT people, EMTs, photographers, etc.) to support our many projects.
During black-belt testing, our size makes it fairly easy for us to find good panels of outside masters to serve as our judges. 
And of course the large size results in a very _social_ dojang - peopled tend to make many new friends at our school.
Of course a number of things on that list fall outside the core objective of having "good taekwondo". But the question I'm rolling-around in my mind is: do smaller schools inherently have an easier time of achieving good taekwondo? I'm inclined to think that being small would present its own unique set of challenges, when it comes to having "good taekwondo".


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## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Of course they are.  I shared my opinion, as you have shared yours.  It's all good.  That's all we are doing here, is sharing opinions.  Nobody is changing the world through Martialtalk.com.
> 
> I believe belts are a waste and a distraction.  You believe otherwise.  I don't have a problem with that.  Do you?


Except that when you call them a waste and a distraction, you are saying they serve no useful purpose, and those of us who use them are distracted by them. I've seen little to support that conclusion.


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## Gerry Seymour

TrueJim said:


> But the question I'm rolling-around in my mind is: do smaller schools inherently have an easier time of achieving good taekwondo? I'm inclined to think that being small would present its own unique set of challenges, when it comes to having "good taekwondo".


I can't speak to TKD, but I know that having a small program brings some specific challenges. There's less variety of who to train/spar with, so you get to know people too well, and don't have to deal with unexpectedness as often. When I (the instructor) am out of town or late getting back in, class doesn't happen. Students are only learning the art from one instructor (this may be the biggest problem, from my point of view).


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## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> It's not an insult to either of us, but then maybe you missed the point. You took a word in one language and made it seem as if simply using an approximate translated word in another language means that the area of study (and breaking is an area of studying, I know one late American grandmaster that wrote two whole books on the subject himself) becomes a simple concept. Languages often don't have an exact equivalent, there's an embedded history to how the word was used and is currently used that simply translating between languages without bearing in mind the culture isn't useful.
> 
> I'm happy to keep discussing this whole topic with you as we've had different experiences and have different points of view, but if you say something that isn't valid/useful (and I explain why I feel that way) and you just reply with "I will leave it at that. Sad is all", then there's not much point in engaging in the discussion.



I feel we hit a low-point by arguing what annihilation entails. When Taekwondo instructors starts resembling lawyers in defending their interpretation of perfectly clear concepts like destruction/annihilation in such a convoluted way, I bow out. The only argument applicable to the case in point, is if the board were to later suffer a heart attack from the unsuccessful breaking attempt.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I feel we hit a low-point by arguing what annihilation entails. When Taekwondo instructors starts resembling lawyers in defending their interpretation of perfectly clear concepts like destruction/annihilation in such a convoluted way, I bow out. The only argument applicable to the case in point, is if the board were to later suffer a heart attack from the unsuccessful breaking attempt.


You were the one who asked for the definition. And Andy is right about the difficulty in translating, espe


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## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> You were the one who asked for the definition. And Andy is right about the difficulty in translating, espe



No. I was simply double-checking if it had an alternative meaning in Korean. As it turned out, the exact Korean wording was even stronger than the English translation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> No. I was simply double-checking if it had an alternative meaning in Korean. As it turned out, the exact Korean wording was even stronger than the English translation.


I might also point out that you are the one treating it like a law - requiring the test meet the letter of what is written, rather than the intent. Andy has pointed out that test isn't (and probably shouldn't be) about breaking a board. There's something that breaking exam is testing for, and the instructor's job is to ensure that's there. If the board breaks on bad technique (weak board), would you just pass the student? They met the wording of the phrase, but not the intent behind the test. And if they get enough of it right (let's say they get 80% right, but no break), well, if the passing "score" (in the instructor's mind, what it takes to pass the test) is met, then they pass.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> It's labelled *breaking*! What is the Korean translation of breaking in KKW?


Here. You didn't ask for an alternative. You asked for the translation. Translations are not often effectively literal.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Some random thoughts ...

For those who are annoyed to read someone say something like "_I will get my black belt a year from now_", are you also annoyed to hear a junior in college say "_I will graduate with my bachelor's degree a year from now_"?

If not, what is the difference? The latter case doesn't necessarily indicate any kind of low standards. Suppose the junior is studying engineering at MIT? I can guarantee you she's putting in a lot more work and being judged more severely than most candidates for a TKD black belt. It's always possible she could flunk some senior classes or be expelled before graduating, but you'd be considered pretty rude if you were to point that out any time someone mentioned their graduation date.

The main difference I see is that in college the requirements for graduation are explicitly defined in detail, there is an expected timeline, and students are expected to prioritize their schooling so they can fulfill those requirements in a timely fashion. In martial arts, the requirements and timeline for promotions are often more vague and most students are hobbyists who are more likely to drop out or slack off as other aspects of their life take priority. However if you have a martial arts school where the promotion requirements are clear and the timeline is reasonably attainable by a normal student and the student knows they can maintain the commitment to keep to that timeline, then I don't see anything wrong with the student expecting to get their promotion on schedule.

This raises the question of what the advantages and disadvantages would be for martial arts schools to have this sort of clearly defined timeline for progression. Right now it seems like the schools most committed to that sort of model are the "Mcdojos" with low standards, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. MIT doesn't display low standards by expecting their students to graduate in 4 years.

There are a few difficulties I see with maintaining high standards, but also having an expected timeline.

Firstly, most martial arts students are hobbyists with limited time to devote to the art. That time may reasonably be expected to vary as other aspects of the student's life intrude. Most martial arts schools cannot reasonably expect their students to put in the same full time commitment that college takes. Perhaps you could get around that by tracking the actual number of classes the student attends and basing the timeline on class hours rather than months or years, but that doesn't pick up "homework" time and it rewards attendance rather than actual achievement.

Secondly, students come in with widely varying levels of pre-existing ability. It took me about 15 years to earn my black belt in BJJ. A friend of mine recently was awarded his after a bit over 5 years. His promotion was entirely deserved, but I don't think he was putting in 3 times the weekly practice time that I was. In addition to being a smart guy with a great attitude and work ethic, he is also much more naturally talented than I am. In contrast, we have another student at our school who has been showing up and putting in good work with a good attitude for 4-5 years and has yet to earn his blue belt. His natural talent is on the other end of the scale.

Colleges get around this issue by only admitting students who they think have the ability and preparation to succeed in the normal timeline. Those who get in but turn out not to have that ability or preparation may end up failing out. Very few martial arts schools follow this system. It might be a decent approach for developing a winning fight team, but it cuts out those who may need martial arts the most - the people who don't have natural talent or advanced physical attributes.

Given these discrepancies in natural talent and time to commit that may exist between different students, perhaps it's unrealistic to define any sort of expected timeline for students to progress. (At least if you are measuring functional ability rather than memorization of a set curriculum.)  BJJ has typically gone with the approach that you are ready whenever you get there, whether it takes 2 years or 20.

Still as an instructor, I don't want to just put _everything_ onto the student. If a student shows up and trains with a good attitude, but doesn't progress nearly as fast as I think they should be able to in a certain span of time, I start wondering what _I_ could do better to help them develop their skills more effectively.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> I might also point out that you are the one treating it like a law - requiring the test meet the letter of what is written, rather than the intent. Andy has pointed out that test isn't (and probably shouldn't be) about breaking a board. There's something that breaking exam is testing for, and the instructor's job is to ensure that's there. If the board breaks on bad technique (weak board), would you just pass the student? They met the wording of the phrase, but not the intent behind the test. And if they get enough of it right (let's say they get 80% right, but no break), well, if the passing "score" (in the instructor's mind, what it takes to pass the test) is met, then they pass.



While I agree that a formally incorrect technique might still break the board, it has not been established how a correct one wouldn't.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

More thoughts:

The severity or laxity of requirements for belt ranking has no necessary link to the quality or intensity of training.

Suppose I open my school of Tony-Do and establish a system where you test for a colored belt rank every 5 years and can't get your black belt until you've been training for 30 years.

Then across town I open a school for my other art, Dismukes Ryu, and in that system you automatically earn your black belt in 1 year without any test and then automatically get another degree on your black belt every year afterwards, topping out at a maximum of 50th dan.

Now tell me - which school offers better training?

Based on what I've told you, there is no way to know. It's true that a purple belt in Tony Do might be the equivalent of a 10th dan in Dismukes Ryu, but that's just labels. The real question is - if you go to one school and put in a couple years of hard work and your identical twin goes to the other school and puts in an equal degree of hard work there - which one of you will have learned more? That's what matters, not what titles are awarded in recognition of that progress.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> While I agree that a formally incorrect technique might still break the board, it has not been established how a correct one wouldn't.


I remember reading a few posts already answering this question including; wet/damp board, thicker board then it was supposed to be, the holders not holding it properly, and an injury preventing the kicker from putting full power even if the technique is accurate. From what I remember, your response was essentially "if they did everything correct the board would break no matter what." So it was established how correct technique wouldn't break the board, you just chose to dismiss it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

TrueJim said:


> You know, that's actually a great question. The school I attend is relatively large, with nearly 600 students in total (if you count the after-care programs and the summer camp programs, along with the conventional evening taekwondo classes). We have 4 schools here in the US but we're affiliated with about a hundred schools over in South Korea (the "MBA" franchise in South Korea). Our busiest class during the week is the Wednesday evening "All Belts" class in which we can have as many as 80 students in a class. (Though a class size of 30ish is more typical for us.) During our busy classes, the use of _belts_ certainly helps us divide into groups quickly for curriculum practice.
> 
> Being a large schools offers us some advantages:
> 
> Of course there's the obvious _economic_ advantages: the economies of scale. We can afford to do things like host big regional tournaments by virtue of our size (the D.C. TKD Open & Kukkiwon Cup is coming up soon) or even have large production runs of our own internal brand of uniforms (네이버 지도).
> We're large enough to have a number of "special teams" that help with longer-term student retention, by maintaining students' interest past black-belt (a demo team, leadership team, competition team, tkd video club, etc.)
> We have a "deep bench" of instructors, so a big chunk of the school can go away (like, to a tournament) while still leaving a good-sized cadre of instructors at home to carry on.
> Our adult population (both practitioners and parents) is so large that we also have a "deep bench" of specialized skills we can draw upon (IT people, EMTs, photographers, etc.) to support our many projects.
> During black-belt testing, our size makes it fairly easy for us to find good panels of outside masters to serve as our judges.
> And of course the large size results in a very _social_ dojang - peopled tend to make many new friends at our school.
> Of course a number of things on that list fall outside the core objective of having "good taekwondo". But the question I'm rolling-around in my mind is: do smaller schools inherently have an easier time of achieving good taekwondo? I'm inclined to think that being small would present its own unique set of challenges, when it comes to having "good taekwondo".


From the viewpoint of a student, I feel that I've learned a lot more from smaller classes. I can't even imagine a class of 80, but I enjoy the smaller atmosphere, am more motivated, and get to see more of what the people with more experience/better technique than myself have.

My best experience was at a school that was small, but had a lot of visitors. So the class size would never be more than 10 (at the very most), but it was new people every month or so that were friends of the instructors visiting NYC from all kinds of backgrounds, and I got to experience people from all the different backgrounds. I have no idea how that worked financially, but as a student I loved it.


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> Of course they are.  I shared my opinion, as you have shared yours.  It's all good.  That's all we are doing here, is sharing opinions.  Nobody is changing the world through Martialtalk.com.
> 
> I believe belts are a waste and a distraction.  You believe otherwise.  I don't have a problem with that.  Do you?


It just happens that your opinion is ignorant and bigoted.  When you share an opinion that is ignorant and bigoted , it's not all good, and you should expect to be challenged.  

Where the heck is @Tez3?  She should be the one calling you out on this, because this is kind of her wheelhouse.  I hope she shows up with that meme of hers she likes to post when people propose idiotic opinions.


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> More thoughts:
> 
> The severity or laxity of requirements for belt ranking has no necessary link to the quality or intensity of training.


Very true, and I agree with the rest of your post.  And also, situations like this create a lot of uncertainty, stress and unnecessary confusion because your standards are not aligned with your expectations.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> From the viewpoint of a student, I feel that I've learned a lot more from smaller classes. I can't even imagine a class of 80, but I enjoy the smaller atmosphere, am more motivated, and get to see more of what the people with more experience/better technique than myself have.
> 
> My best experience was at a school that was small, but had a lot of visitors. So the class size would never be more than 10 (at the very most), but it was new people every month or so that were friends of the instructors visiting NYC from all kinds of backgrounds, and I got to experience people from all the different backgrounds. I have no idea how that worked financially, but as a student I loved it.



As I already mentioned, the board wasn't wood, it was one of those you piece together after breaking it (another sign of a Mcdojo). And they did make several adjustments for her with no improvement in her performance.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> While I agree that a formally incorrect technique might still break the board, it has not been established how a correct one wouldn't.



I was going to say use your imagination and think of all the ways a board might not break but Kempodisciple has very kindly given some reasons. I have seen demos where the board didn't break because the holder let go as soon as the person just about touched it. It wouldn't break because it didn't get the full force. I've seen the holder move the angle of it as well, it's a flinch reflex which means that while the 'attack' on the board is correct the board doesn't get the full impact. I wouldn't volunteer to hold a board, I think you need someone with a bit of experience.





kempodisciple said:


> I remember reading a few posts already answering this question including; wet/damp board, thicker board then it was supposed to be, the holders not holding it properly, and an injury preventing the kicker from putting full power even if the technique is accurate. From what I remember, your response was essentially "if they did everything correct the board would break no matter what." So it was established how correct technique wouldn't break the board, you just chose to dismiss it.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> As I already mentioned, the board wasn't wood, it was one of those you piece together after breaking it (another sign of a Mcdojo). And they did make several adjustments for her with no improvement in her performance.



Really? or perhaps it's the sign of people who are thrifty and/or don't want to use wood to help the environment. Get a grip man, you far too judgemental without any reasons to be.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Really? or perhaps it's the sign of people who are thrifty and/or don't want to use wood to help the environment.



Sounds far-fetched.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> As I already mentioned, the board wasn't wood, it was one of those you piece together after breaking it (another sign of a Mcdojo). And they did make several adjustments for her with no improvement in her performance.


Those boards can be temperamental sometimes, I've seen old ones that either break with a tap, or are way tougher to break then their color/thickness suggests


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Really? or perhaps it's the sign of people who are thrifty and/or don't want to use wood to help the environment. Get a grip man, you far too judgemental without any reasons to be.


yeah, it's not like wood grows on trees!  Hahahahah...  err..  yeah... 

Seriously, though, I agree completely.


----------



## Flying Crane

TrueJim said:


> You know, that's actually a great question. The school I attend is relatively large, with nearly 600 students in total (if you count the after-care programs and the summer camp programs, along with the conventional evening taekwondo classes). We have 4 schools here in the US but we're affiliated with about a hundred schools over in South Korea (the "MBA" franchise in South Korea). Our busiest class during the week is the Wednesday evening "All Belts" class in which we can have as many as 80 students in a class. (Though a class size of 30ish is more typical for us.) During our busy classes, the use of _belts_ certainly helps us divide into groups quickly for curriculum practice.
> 
> Being a large schools offers us some advantages:
> 
> Of course there's the obvious _economic_ advantages: the economies of scale. We can afford to do things like host big regional tournaments by virtue of our size (the D.C. TKD Open & Kukkiwon Cup is coming up soon) or even have large production runs of our own internal brand of uniforms (네이버 지도).
> We're large enough to have a number of "special teams" that help with longer-term student retention, by maintaining students' interest past black-belt (a demo team, leadership team, competition team, tkd video club, etc.)
> We have a "deep bench" of instructors, so a big chunk of the school can go away (like, to a tournament) while still leaving a good-sized cadre of instructors at home to carry on.
> Our adult population (both practitioners and parents) is so large that we also have a "deep bench" of specialized skills we can draw upon (IT people, EMTs, photographers, etc.) to support our many projects.
> During black-belt testing, our size makes it fairly easy for us to find good panels of outside masters to serve as our judges.
> And of course the large size results in a very _social_ dojang - peopled tend to make many new friends at our school.
> Of course a number of things on that list fall outside the core objective of having "good taekwondo". But the question I'm rolling-around in my mind is: do smaller schools inherently have an easier time of achieving good taekwondo? I'm inclined to think that being small would present its own unique set of challenges, when it comes to having "good taekwondo".


In a small school I feel it is easier for a student to develop a meaningful student-teacher relationship with the teacher, which can translate into better instruction.  The teacher really knows the students progress and ability.

In a big school as you describe, a relationship with the instructional staff is not the same thing as a relationship with an instructor.  Sounds like there is a real possibility for a student to have no real relationship with any instructor, and the staff as a whole might not have intimate understanding of any particular students progress without needing to consult the records.  In my opinion, that is very much less-than-desireable arrangement.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> Those boards can be temperamental sometimes, I've seen old ones that either break with a tap, or are way tougher to break then their color/thickness suggests



There's a black belt who get's criticised every single pattern performance for lacking power, and rightly so. He breaks the boards effortlessly.  I have broken them so hard that the two people holding dropped it to the ground, and one of those guys is a steoridhead who always has his shirt off in the locker room until the last second.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> Except that when you call them a waste and a distraction, you are saying they serve no useful purpose, and those of us who use them are distracted by them. I've seen little to support that conclusion.


And thank you for that opinion too. 

Edit: I'll expand in my thought here a bit.

My comment was in response to another member who, if I understand him correctly,  feels that the test itself should determine the promotion, never mind the months and years of hard training.  The test trumps all.

Well, in my school we don't test and we don't use belts.  I could interpret his position as an insult to our approach to training, but i don't because I know different strokes for different folks.

I offered an alternative perspective.  I do believe that belts are mostly a distraction and a waste, even though I have been ranked in two different systems that use them.  My opinion is certainly influenced by those experiences.  In my opinion, they very often get in the way.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Sounds far-fetched.



Oh good grief! Are you not thrifty with your hard earnt money, do you not care about the environment and having trees chopped down just to be wasted?

In the UK we don't have a huge lot of martial arts schools and clubs that are run purely for money. Most instructors I know of all styles do it for the love of martial arts, not for the money so are conscious of saving money so buying reusable boards makes complete sense. They are there when they want to use them, it saves buying new ones every time and is environmentally friendly something many of us are these days. _It's common sense to buy re-usable ones not a sign of a MCDojo which presumably would want to buy new wood ones everytime so they could charge more!_


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I have broken them so hard that the two people holding dropped it to the ground,



Of course you did.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Of course you did.



It wasn't even for a grading. I had a bad day and asked the instructor to get me one and had the steoridhead and another dude hold it. Nobody said a word after that


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> It wasn't even for a grading. I had a bad day and asked the instructor to get me one and had the steoridhead and another dude hold it. Nobody said a word after that


I bet they were really impressed.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> There's a black belt who get's criticised every single pattern performance for lacking power, and rightly so. He breaks the boards effortlessly.  I have broken them so hard that the two people holding dropped it to the ground, and one of those guys is a steoridhead who always has his shirt off in the locker room until the last second.





Axiom said:


> It wasn't even for a grading. I had a bad day and asked the instructor to get me one and had the steoridhead and another dude hold it. Nobody said a word after that



What do either of these have to do with the boards being temperamental?

Also, if only mcdojos have those boards, and your dojo breaks those boards, wouldn't that mean you train at a mcdojo?


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> Also, if only mcdojos have those boards, and your dojo breaks those boards, wouldn't that mean you train at a mcdojo?



Look at you, putting two and two together The level of intensity during class is equal to or better than other schools. It's the level of rigor in testing which is Mcdojo on acid.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> What do either of these have to do with the boards being temperamental?



What a coincidence they only exhibited that for the particular girl who could break them fine with a kick, but not with her fist. That sure was a quick change!


----------



## Axiom

Steve said:


> I bet they were really impressed.



Sure looked like it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Look at you, putting two and two together The level of intensity during class is equal to or better than other schools. It's the level of rigor in testing which is Mcdojo on acid.


So the testing is a mcdojos, the test for power generation is a mcdojo and the black belts are products of a mcdojo. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

But if you're happy there then that's fine. As long as your aware of what you're getting.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> What a coincidence they only exhibited that for the particular girl who could break them fine with a kick, but not with her fist. That sure was a quick change!


I have no clue what girl you're talking about. I would bet in that case it wasn't the board, but my statement was that the boards can be temperamental. Not whatever person you now have it in your head to use to anecdotally probe your point.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> So the testing is a mcdojos, the test for power generation is a mcdojo and the black belts are products of a mcdojo. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
> .



See, that's a fallacy since I just infromed you that the training is of high intensity. The legit ones will always come through. Only difference is that people who should logically stay as yellow or green belts are promoted to black belts. That rubs you the wrong way initially, but now it's just a way of life for me.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> Look at you, putting two and two together The level of intensity during class is equal to or better than other schools. It's the level of rigor in testing which is Mcdojo on acid.


I have a quick question.  Is the trouble with the term "test?"  I get the impression that many schools call them tests when they are really "demonstrations."  As I mentioned in other, similar threads, and earlier in this one, it all works better when everything is consistent.  But as Tony points out, a disconnect between the "test" and the training is not uncommon.    If it bothers you too much, just consider the "tests" to be a public demonstration/celebration of achievement that has already been vetted in training by the instructors.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> Sure looked like it.


did they swoon?


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> I have no clue what girl you're talking about.



What difference does it make you knowing who it is? She was in good health and involved in other physical activities. And young, and perfectly capable of performing the forms. But not a simple break with a knife hand against a Mcdojo plastered board.


----------



## Tez3

Trust me, we really don't care, it doesn't rub anyone but you up the wrong way. How do I know that? because you are going on and on and on about it.


----------



## Axiom

Steve said:


> I have a quick question.  Is the trouble with the term "test?"  I get the impression that many schools call them tests when they are really "demonstrations."  As I mentioned in other, similar threads, and earlier in this one, it all works better when everything is consistent.  But as Tony points out, a disconnect between the "test" and the training is not uncommon.    If it bothers you too much, just consider the "tests" to be a public demonstration/celebration of achievement that has already been vetted in training by the instructors.



That doesn't change the fact that people walk around as black belts with abilities corresponding to a green or blue belt at BEST. But like I said, it rubbed me the wrong way initially but not anymore.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> That doesn't change the fact that people walk around as black belts with abilities corresponding to a green or blue belt at BEST. But like I said, it rubbed me the wrong way initially but not anymore.


I am coming into this late, so please forgive me if I'm rehashing things that have been said before. 

What is your real concern?  Is it that none of the black belts are meeting the school's standards?  That some are and some aren't?   That they aren't up to your own personal standards?  Something else?   When you say, "abilities corresponding to a green or blue belt," is that according to the school's standards or your own?


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Trust me, we really don't care, it doesn't rub anyone but you up the wrong way. How do I know that? because you are going on and on and on about it.



My heart cries for TaeKwonDo on the inside given the instructors credentials. What has become of this great art. On the outside I'm fine with it.

They should put me on a time machine to the 60s in South Korea when people lived TKD, there was no sport, no silly half assed boxing thrown in, and I would dedicate my life to it.

Hope I didn't make anyone cry from that account. I know it's touching.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> My heart cries for TaeKwonDo on the inside given the instructors credentials. What has become of this great art. On the outside I'm fine with it.
> 
> They should put me on a time machine to the 60s in South Korea when people lived TKD, there was no sport, no silly half assed boxing thrown in, and I would dedicate my life to it.
> 
> Hope I didn't make anyone cry from that account. I know it's touching.



You're having a giraffe mate.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> What difference does it make you knowing who it is? She was in good health and involved in other physical activities. And young, and perfectly capable of performing the forms. But not a simple break with a knife hand against a Mcdojo plastered board.


My point was she had nothing to do with the conversation, you just brought her in out of nowhere to prove a point anecdotally. But at this point there's no reason to go tonue wasting my time with this.


----------



## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> My point was she had nothing to do with the conversation, you just brought her in out of nowhere to prove a point anecdotally. But at this point there's no reason to go tonue wasting my time with this.



 I was present at her grading, hearing her boyfriend in the crowd blaming the other students holding the board for her shortcomings. Pathetic.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I was present at her grading, hearing her boyfriend in the crowd blaming the other students holding the board, for her shortcomings. Pathetic.




You have issues.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You have issues.



Should I instead relay events that I was not present to? The boyfriend running his mouth in the background was incredibly rude,  and passing the girl to black belt was a slap in the face to TaeKwonDo. Kinda like the icing on the cake. 

From a *president *of the federation.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Should I instead relay events that I was not present to? The boyfriend running his mouth in the background was incredibly rude,  and passing the girl to black belt was a slap in the face to TaeKwonDo. Kinda like the icing on the cake.
> 
> From a *president *of the federation.



Or it could be sour grapes because you have an unrealistic high opinion of your abilities and feel you can judge someone when you don't know the circumstances. You say the boyfriend was running his mouth odd, someone else will say he wasn't. It is more than likely that someone didn't hold the board correctly (experts have said this is possible). 

You've already told us everyone passes, it's that sort of test, you've even said you prefer lax ie rubbish tests and you will take a black belt for free so please stop kvetching and just train.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> You've already told us everyone passes, it's that sort of test, you've even said you prefer lax ie rubbish tests and you will take a black belt for free so please stop kvetching and just train.



Yeah and I'm confident I would pass elsewhere as well. But the point is that I'm assured of getting it where I am right now, and that's actually comforting because I could get nervous and do some stuff wrong, which some Shotokan examiners maybe would have punished and asked for a retest in a few months. There is no risk of that.here


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> And thank you for that opinion too.
> 
> Edit: I'll expand in my thought here a bit.
> 
> My comment was in response to another member who, if I understand him correctly,  feels that the test itself should determine the promotion, never mind the months and years of hard training.  The test trumps all.
> 
> Well, in my school we don't test and we don't use belts.  I could interpret his position as an insult to our approach to training, but i don't because I know different strokes for different folks.
> 
> I offered an alternative perspective.  I do believe that belts are mostly a distraction and a waste, even though I have been ranked in two different systems that use them.  My opinion is certainly influenced by those experiences.  In my opinion, they very often get in the way.


Ah! That's a different statement. There are schools where belts are not tested for - they are simply given when the student reaches the necessary skill level in whatever is being looked for. In my program, a test is failable, but that's unlikely to happen. I decide when a student tests (they can say "no", and can ask to test), and don't suggest they test until I'm reasonably certain they have easily met the requirements for the test. The test is merely a chance to make sure I didn't miss anything. The belts simply represent a minimum point in the syllabus and a minimum skill level.

There is very little concern over belts. Occasionally a person misplaces a belt, and they simply wear their old white belt until they find it. A couple of times, that person has been me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> In a small school I feel it is easier for a student to develop a meaningful student-teacher relationship with the teacher, which can translate into better instruction.  The teacher really knows the students progress and ability.
> 
> In a big school as you describe, a relationship with the instructional staff is not the same thing as a relationship with an instructor.  Sounds like there is a real possibility for a student to have no real relationship with any instructor, and the staff as a whole might not have intimate understanding of any particular students progress without needing to consult the records.  In my opinion, that is very much less-than-desireable arrangement.


My experience with a fairly large school was that each student still had a primary instructor. It wasn't usually the chief instructor, but there was still a reasonably close relationship with at least one (sometimes more than one) instructor over time.


----------



## CB Jones

Axiom said:


> See, that's a fallacy since I just infromed you that the training is of high intensity. The legit ones will always come through. Only difference is that people who should logically stay as yellow or green belts are promoted to black belts. That rubs you the wrong way initially, but now it's just a way of life for me.



Just thinking out loud.....

How do you know you are one of the legit and not one of the "should have stayed at green"?


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Yeah and I'm confident I would pass elsewhere as well. But the point is that I'm assured of getting it where I am right now, and that's actually comforting because I could get nervous and do some stuff wrong, which some Shotokan examiners maybe would have punished and asked for a retest in a few months. There is no risk of that.here



I wouldn't pass you on principle, because you are lacking what was in the past called moral fibre. 
To take the easy way out shows you have little self respect, you are happy being given a black belt rather than actually earn it. I hope when you get it that it gives you as much satisfaction as you think it will but I can also guarantee that it will not. Deep down you will know you are a fake. My advice, go and get a cup of man up, stop moaning on here about everything, go out and push yourself. 


*"If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain."* Maya Angelou


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> You're having a giraffe mate.


I haven't heard that one before, Tez.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Should I instead relay events that I was not present to? The boyfriend running his mouth in the background was incredibly rude,  and passing the girl to black belt was a slap in the face to TaeKwonDo. Kinda like the icing on the cake.
> 
> From a *president *of the federation.


Somehow, ever time you refer back to an incident, there's some new and more shocking detail that you never bothered to mention before.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> That doesn't change the fact that people walk around as black belts with abilities corresponding to a green or blue belt at BEST.


Just curious: how do you define the ability of a "black belt", as opposed to that of a green or blue belt?

I hold black belt rank in 3 unrelated arts.

The first required showing up to classes and seminars for about 4 years and reaching a level of technical ability and understanding which I now (over 3 decades later) regard as pretty low. No formal test was required, the promotion was based on my teachers observation of how I moved in class.

The second took around the same length of time, but required a lot more physical exertion and sparring. There was a fairly demanding test.

The third took about 15 years of extremely hard work and study, including lots of sparring and getting my ego smashed like a bug on a regular basis. There was no formal test. The decision was based on my instructor watching me train, spar, and teach for years.

At which of these stages did I have the abilities of a "real" black belt?


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom, do you think that if your instructor read what you have posted here, that you would still pass that test? How 'lax' do you think he is?

I would think it unlikely, given that much of what you have posted here is in direct opposition to the tenets of the art you claim to love and understand.

I think it more likely that you would be asked to leave. 

Just an observation. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> You have issues.


I resemble that statement!


----------



## Axiom

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just curious: how do you define the ability of a "black belt", as opposed to that of a green or blue belt?
> At which of these stages did I have the abilities of a "real" black belt?



When you can perform the black belt forms according to the book approximately. I would also add that there is room for special conciderations: Someone might be slightly less flexible than required but compensates with power, or vice versa.


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> Axiom, do you think that if your instructor read what you have posted here, that you would still pass that test? How 'lax' do you think he is?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Wanna give it a try? I don't see how his bruised ego ( if it comes to that) is relevant to the points I raised.


----------



## Axiom

He has been critical of himself but done nothing about it. Stated openly that the standard is too low, despite the fact that he's the one setting it.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> Ah! That's a different statement. There are schools where belts are not tested for - they are simply given when the student reaches the necessary skill level in whatever is being looked for. In my program, a test is failable, but that's unlikely to happen. I decide when a student tests (they can say "no", and can ask to test), and don't suggest they test until I'm reasonably certain they have easily met the requirements for the test. The test is merely a chance to make sure I didn't miss anything. The belts simply represent a minimum point in the syllabus and a minimum skill level.
> 
> There is very little concern over belts. Occasionally a person misplaces a belt, and they simply wear their old white belt until they find it. A couple of times, that person has been me.


And I will also admit to a bit of hyperbole there. 

I like the idea of a teacher simply, and without ceremony, handing a new belt to a student when the teacher feels the time is right, without a test.  If there is a close student-teacher relationship, i think that approach is very possible and it removes the belt from the point of obsession because it is simply the teacher's decision.  There is no work-up or other anticipation to the next "testing date" and whatnot.  It just happens...when it happens.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Wanna give it a try? I don't see how his bruised ego ( if it comes to that) is relevant to the points I raised.


It's nothing to do with his ego, it is to do with yours. I don't care enough, what goes on in your training is between you and your instructor. 

I just find it a shame that even with the collected wisdom of masters of multiple martial arts indicating that you might be in the wrong, you don't have the insight into yourself or the humility to consider and reflect.

So, you haven't answered my question: do you think you would pass / be allowed to test if he read this thread?

If not, why not? Clue: not his ego. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> So, you haven't answered my question: do you think you would pass / be allowed to test if he read this thread?
> 
> If not, why not? Clue: not his ego.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



If you mean to tell me that I have violated one of the core principles of TKD, then I can assure you he has too. So has plenty of other instructors. Meaningless objection.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> When you can perform the black belt forms according to the book approximately. I would also add that there is room for special conciderations: Someone might be slightly less flexible than required but compensates with power, or vice versa.


So it's based pretty much on remembering and executing some specified choreography? Oddly enough, that wasn't a requirement for any of my ranks. Maybe I'm still not a legit black belt! 

The point is, what a black belt means is defined by the art and the instructor awarding the rank. Whatever your instructor is using as the basis for handing out promotions, that's what a legit black belt is for your school. If it means nothing other than "showed up for a certain length of time and paid his/her fees", than might as well just focus on training because the rank won't carry much meaning for you.


----------



## Axiom

Tony Dismukes said:


> So it's based pretty much on remembering and executing some specified choreography? Oddly enough, that wasn't a requirement for any of my ranks. Maybe I'm still not a legit black belt!
> 
> The point is, what a black belt means is defined by the art and the instructor awarding the rank. Whatever your instructor is using as the basis for handing out promotions, that's what a legit black belt is for your school. If it means nothing other than "showed up for a certain length of time and paid his/her fees", than might as well just focus on training because the rank won't carry much meaning for you.



You asked me what I concider a black belt. A black belt can peform a black belt pattern according to the book. Now interestingly enough, I haven't spotted a single ITF guy executing a flying sidekick without the foot touching the floor before the technique is finished... So I would strip them all of their belts. They don't jump high enough.


----------



## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> I haven't heard that one before, Tez.



Cockney rhyming slang.. giraffe - laugh ( or larf as Cockneys would say)


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> If you mean to tell me that I have violated one of the core principles of TKD, then I can assure you he has too. So has plenty of other instructors. Meaningless objection.



That's whataboutery.   Whataboutism - Wikipedia


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> And I will also admit to a bit of hyperbole there.
> 
> I like the idea of a teacher simply, and without ceremony, handing a new belt to a student when the teacher feels the time is right, without a test.  If there is a close student-teacher relationship, i think that approach is very possible and it removes the belt from the point of obsession because it is simply the teacher's decision.  There is no work-up or other anticipation to the next "testing date" and whatnot.  It just happens...when it happens.


Ah, you like the BJJ model.


----------



## Axiom

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ah, you like the BJJ model.



Plenty of BJJ schools award guys belts for sticking around long enough. Exactly the same as in TaeKwondo.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> Should I instead relay events that I was not present to? The boyfriend running his mouth in the background was incredibly rude,  and passing the girl to black belt was a slap in the face to TaeKwonDo. Kinda like the icing on the cake.
> 
> From a *president *of the federation.


Did Taekwondo slap him back?  I think a 720 tornado kick would have been really cool to see.


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> That's whataboutery.   Whataboutism - Wikipedia



Cool. You learn something new each day.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> If you mean to tell me that I have violated one of the core principles of TKD, then I can assure you he has too. So has plenty of other instructors. Meaningless objection.


I mean to encourage you to reflect, but I can see it's not happening. Just stop and think. Maybe sleep on it. You behaviour is not fitting. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Cockney rhyming slang.. giraffe - laugh ( or larf as Cockneys would say)


Wait... so they say girarf?  Now that IS funny.


----------



## Axiom

Steve said:


> Did Taekwondo slap him back?  I think a 720 tornado kick would have been really cool to see.



 I'm motivated to start my own place and teach consistent TaeKwondo, without any betrayals of
 giving in to other arts, which ALL ITF schools do today with their separate boxing instructions. If I wanted boxing, I would go to a legit boxing coach. Not be taught some half assed version.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> Plenty of BJJ schools award guys belts for sticking around long enough. Exactly the same as in TaeKwondo.


Well, no.  They don't usually "test" for the belts.  If lax bothers you, the subjective nature of BJJ promotions will drive you absolutely bonkers.


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> I mean to encourage you to reflect, but I can see it's not happening. Just stop and think. Maybe sleep on it. You behaviour is not fitting.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Coming from the guy with snarky remarks like: "Here's a clue".


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> Coming from the guy with snarky rermarks like: "Here's a clue".


Sometimes you need an edge to cut through. At least I know you read my post to the end. Now think on it. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Steve said:


> Well, no.  They don't usually "test" for the belts.



Right, they don't test them at all. Stick around and the belt is yours, although this time no test. I don't see how that's any better.


----------



## CB Jones

I haven't been this entertained since Mou Meng Foo or whatever was his name was posting on the board about his nameless style


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> Right, they don't test them at all. Stick around and the belt is yours, although this time no test. I don't see how that's any better.


You're mixing some things up in your brain.  Instructors giving out belts when they feel like it is not the same as sticking around and the belt is yours.  one of those is a subset of the other.  Kind of like Chihuahuas and dogs.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Steve said:


> Well, no.  They don't usually "test" for the belts.  If lax bothers you, the subjective nature of BJJ promotions will drive you absolutely bonkers.


Many people complain that it's too easy to get a black belt in TKD, and hence it means nothing.

At the UFC gym I attend, everyone in BJJ is a white belt, even though some of the guys have solid wrestling and look pretty good.  So it's the opposite problem there - white belt means nothing.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> He has been critical of himself but done nothing about it. Stated openly that the standard is too low, despite the fact that he's the one setting it.


Then leave go train with a decent instructor and don't bother with your participation award....sorry I mean black belt


----------



## Axiom

Gnarlie said:


> Sometimes you need an edge to cut through. At least I know you read my post to the end. Now think on it.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



 If you want to attend a passed for certain grading, feel free to do so. Maybe then you will realise that I am not BSing here, and that´s straight up in the ranks. One of the highest ranking dudes in ITF Taekwondo still living.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> When you can perform the black belt forms according to the book approximately. I would also add that there is room for special conciderations: Someone might be slightly less flexible than required but compensates with power, or vice versa.


You're assuming there are such things as "black belt forms" in all of those arts (and there aren't). There weren't for my NGA shodan, either, which is probably comparable to something between the second and third ones Tony listed.


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Then leave go train with a decent instructor and don't bother with your participation award....sorry I mean black belt



If I only care about *grading* rigor, then of course I would leave in a split second.  There are other factors in deciding where to train - money, geographical convenience, etc


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> Plenty of BJJ schools award guys belts for sticking around long enough. Exactly the same as in TaeKwondo.





Axiom said:


> Right, they don't test them at all. Stick around and the belt is yours, although this time no test. I don't see how that's any better.



I had coined a phrase in a thread a few years back which seems applicable.

"Sufficiently advanced Dunning-Kruger effect is indistinguishable from trolling and vice versa."

Just in case this is an honest misunderstanding on your part, I'll clarify.

BJJ (in most schools) doesn't really on formal tests because you are tested every day on the mat. Sticking around doesn't get you a belt.  I have a friend who started BJJ around the same time I did 18 years ago. He's still a purple belt. I have a student who has been coming to class for around 5 years. He's still a white belt. You get the promotion when you show that you deserve it by _consistently_ sparring/rolling at the expected level for your rank.



Axiom said:


> I'm motivated to start my own place and teach consistent TaeKwondo, without any betrayals of
> giving in to other arts, which ALL ITF schools do today with their separate boxing instructions. If I wanted boxing, I would go to a legit boxing coach. Not be taught some half assed version.



Don't you need to actually learn TKD at a reasonably high level before you worry about starting your own school? Especially if you are wanting to establish higher standards than your current instructor?


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Yeah and I'm confident I would pass elsewhere as well. But the point is that I'm assured of getting it where I am right now, and that's actually comforting because I could get nervous and do some stuff wrong, which some Shotokan examiners maybe would have punished and asked for a retest in a few months. There is no risk of that.here


You say you could pass elsewhere well go elsewhere and prove it but instead your happy to take the easy option. You get nervous? Suck it up and deal with it. I was freaking nervous for mine turned up on the night thought it was going to be with the normal 4 black belts turns out there were 7 extra who I never met you think I wasn't nervous course I was but I got on with it.

You know you do what you do man but if I was in your position I wouldn't be proud if I got it in your situation because I know it wasn't properly earned you got a participation award for turning up and paying him money. You're on here acting like you know everything but you've basically called your own club a mcdojo.

You say you could get it elsewhere how do you know? You may suck but your instructor won't tell you he'll just give you the belt anyway.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> And I will also admit to a bit of hyperbole there.
> 
> I like the idea of a teacher simply, and without ceremony, handing a new belt to a student when the teacher feels the time is right, without a test.  If there is a close student-teacher relationship, i think that approach is very possible and it removes the belt from the point of obsession because it is simply the teacher's decision.  There is no work-up or other anticipation to the next "testing date" and whatnot.  It just happens...when it happens.


I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment in your closing two sentences, FC. It's why I decide when students test. They don't really know it's coming, nor precisely what they have to do for me to pull the trigger (because it's nothing exact). One day, I look at them and decide they are probably ready for the test, then I watch them a few classes to make sure they can do everything on the test. Then, I tell them they will be testing. Sometimes, I just tell them, "Grab a partner, and let's knock out part of your test." Other times, I might tell them something they need to work on, so I can test them ("You need to work on your Wheel Throw. That won't pass your test."). I made a conscious decision to reduce the focus on the next test, from what I sometimes saw around me in my training. I'm pretty ambivalent about belts, personally. I seriously considered getting rid of belt ranks, or just waiting until folks were ready to teach and handing them a BB (so only white/black). In the end, I reduced the number of ranks and changed the testing format to make the tests more in line with what I really want to test for.


----------



## TrueJim

Tony Dismukes said:


> For those who are annoyed to read someone say something like "_I will get my black belt a year from now_", are you also annoyed to hear a junior in college say "_I will graduate with my bachelor's degree a year from now_"?
> 
> If not, what is the difference? The latter case doesn't necessarily indicate any kind of low standards.



Good point. 



Tony Dismukes said:


> In martial arts, the requirements and timeline for promotions are often more vague and most students are hobbyists who are more likely to drop out or slack off as other aspects of their life take priority.



We test for black-belt 3 times per year at our school. It's not an uncommon topic of conversation at (say) 3rd or 4th geup to start pondering which of the three tests you're going to try to slot yourself into. "Hmmm....based on my current trajectory, should I be aiming for the Winter test, or the Spring test? Hmmmm." My point is, we often see the opposite effect as well: somebody has decided to shoot for Winter, and because this is just a hobby, they do have some flexibility to redouble their efforts to attend more classes, to achieve they timeline goal that they set for themselves. When you let the instructors know what timeframe you're shooting for, they do their best to help as well...to get you on the right glide-slope to target the test date you're looking at. 

So, agreeing with you...not sure why it's a bad thing to know that you'll be testing a year from now, and that if you stick to your plan you'll likely pass.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Plenty of BJJ schools award guys belts for sticking around long enough. Exactly the same as in TaeKwondo.



Have you ever actually been in a BJJ school? I didn't think so. 
BJJ promotions are based on being tested every single day, as opposed to a formal 'test day.' Same way we do it in our MDK TKD school.



Axiom said:


> I'm motivated to start my own place and teach consistent TaeKwondo, without any betrayals of
> giving in to other arts, which ALL ITF schools do today with their separate boxing instructions. If I wanted boxing, I would go to a legit boxing coach. Not be taught some half assed version.



I think this is a great idea. Just declare yourself a 24th Dan Soke in Axiom Ryu and open a school.
The fact that you don't actually appear to understand the little you've been taught shouldn't be considered any drawback at all.


----------



## Axiom

Tony Dismukes said:


> Don't you need to actually learn TKD at a reasonably high level before you worry about starting your own school? Especially if you are wanting to establish higher standards than your current instructor?



Yeah, I need few Dans of course. I know a place where I can get them (sorry couldn't resist!)


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Plenty of BJJ schools award guys belts for sticking around long enough. Exactly the same as in TaeKwondo.


Do you train bjj?...don't answer I already know it. You don't get the belt for time you get it for being good. If you spend a year in Jiu Jitsu and you're tapping out purple belts as a white belt you'll get your blue pretty quick if you struggle against other white belts it'll take you longer. I know a guy who's been training for about 3 years (only a year less than you) and he's a white belt and he trains regularly


----------



## Dirty Dog

gpseymour said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment in your closing two sentences, FC. It's why I decide when students test. They don't really know it's coming, nor precisely what they have to do for me to pull the trigger (because it's nothing exact). One day, I look at them and decide they are probably ready for the test, then I watch them a few classes to make sure they can do everything on the test. Then, I tell them they will be testing. Sometimes, I just tell them, "Grab a partner, and let's knock out part of your test." Other times, I might tell them something they need to work on, so I can test them ("You need to work on your Wheel Throw. That won't pass your test."). I made a conscious decision to reduce the focus on the next test, from what I sometimes saw around me in my training. I'm pretty ambivalent about belts, personally. I seriously considered getting rid of belt ranks, or just waiting until folks were ready to teach and handing them a BB (so only white/black). In the end, I reduced the number of ranks and changed the testing format to make the tests more in line with what I really want to test for.



This is pretty much how we do testing, too.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Have you ever actually been in a BJJ school? I didn't think so.
> BJJ promotions are based on being tested every single day, as opposed to a formal 'test day.' Same way we do it in our MDK TKD school.
> 
> .



I have spoken to BJJ black belts and it's BS that all BJJ schools have a higher level of rigor than Karate, TKD etc. Some (not all): award belts for sticking around long enough.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Right, they don't test them at all. Stick around and the belt is yours, although this time no test. I don't see how that's any better.


You REALLY don't get this one, do you?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> You're assuming there are such things as "black belt forms" in all of those arts (and there aren't). There weren't for my NGA shodan, either, which is probably comparable to something between the second and third ones Tony listed.


I assumed that Axiom was just limiting his reply to defining what a TKD black belt should be in his school. It didn't even occur to me that he might think all arts have "black belt forms."

Just in case, I'll clarify. None of the arts I hold black belts in have "black belt forms". In fact, none of them have solo forms at all and only the first had paired forms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> You're mixing some things up in your brain.  Instructors giving out belts when they feel like it is not the same as sticking around and the belt is yours.  one of those is a subset of the other.  Kind of like Chihuahuas and dogs.


I disagree. Chihuahuas aren't real dogs.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> I'm motivated to start my own place and teach consistent TaeKwondo, without any betrayals of
> giving in to other arts, which ALL ITF schools do today with their separate boxing instructions. If I wanted boxing, I would go to a legit boxing coach. Not be taught some half assed version.




Think about this....  you have been taught the half assed version (according to you), gained your black belt in it and you think you can go off and teach the 'real' stuff? Where are you going to go and learn that?

'separate boxing instructions'! my dear boy, you are going to be in for a shock one day.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Many people complain that it's too easy to get a black belt in TKD, and hence it means nothing.
> 
> At the UFC gym I attend, everyone in BJJ is a white belt, even though some of the guys have solid wrestling and look pretty good.  So it's the opposite problem there - white belt means nothing.


I prefer that problem.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> You REALLY don't get this one, do you?



No, YOU, are not getting it. That's all that's required of them in *some* places.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> If you want to attend a passed for certain grading, feel free to do so. Maybe then you will realise that I am not BSing here, and that´s straight up in the ranks. One of the highest ranking dudes in ITF Taekwondo still living.


This is bad English. I can't make sense of it. As I said, I don't care what you do, it's between you and him. I just think it's a shame you can't see yourself. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> Think about this....  you have been taught the half assed version (according to you), gained your black belt in it and you think you can go off and teach the 'real' stuff? Where are you going to go and learn that?
> 
> 'separate boxing instructions'! my dear boy, you are going to be in for a shock one day.



No, I said that they intermix the traditional training with half assed boxing that does not belong in TaeKwondo. And does no good because nobody in the school is qualified enough to teach it.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> No, YOU, are not getting it. That's all that's required of them in *some* places.


And you know this even though you've never even stepped in 1 *school*


----------



## Headhunter

My god,....I don't even know what to say to this thread anymore...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> While I agree that a formally incorrect technique might still break the board, it has not been established how a correct one wouldn't.


I actually covered that in my original comment on that question, as well as why that might not matter.


----------



## Tez3

Axiom said:


> No, I said that they intermix the traditional training with half assed boxing that does not belong in TaeKwondo. And does no good because nobody in the school is qualified enough to teach it.



I suspect I have a better idea of what TKD trains than you do.

Anyway, it's getting dark and I shall get off the computer until it's dark tomorrow. I shan't hold my breath hoping you manage to open your mind before tomorrow. Not including myself there is a hell of a lot of collective martial arts wisdom on this thread and you aren't listening to any of them.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> No, I said that they intermix the traditional training with half assed boxing that does not belong in TaeKwondo. And does no good because nobody in the school is qualified enough to teach it.



You know what's really sad here? The fact that you really do not seem to understand how great a fool you are making yourself look.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Axiom said:


> I have spoken to BJJ black belts and it's BS that all BJJ schools have a higher level of rigor than Karate, TKD etc. Some (not all): award belts for sticking around long enough.


Based on reading what you've written in other threads, you do seem to post a lot based on hearsay from unnamed sources on topics you have no personal experience with. We have a few BJJ black belts on this forum. I don't know if you'll find any of us who will back you up on this.

How about this - instead of repeating rumors from anonymous sources, go find yourself a BJJ school and give a try for a bit. Let us know what you think about the promotion standards then. If you're ever near my area, I'll even give you a free class to try it out.


----------



## CB Jones

Headhunter said:


> My god,....I don't even know what to say to this thread anymore...



I know its friggin awesome...


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tony Dismukes said:


> "Sufficiently advanced Dunning-Kruger effect is indistinguishable from trolling and vice versa."


The one thing that bugs me about this is that in most cases I will never know which it was.


----------



## JR 137

Axiom said:


> As I already mentioned, the board wasn't wood, it was one of those you piece together after breaking it (another sign of a Mcdojo).



My dojo has a few of those rebreakable boards.  The kids use them most often.  Some beginner adults (or at least adults who haven't broken before) use them too.

Why do we have them?  They're cheaper than wood in the long run, and they're more convenient.

We don't do a lot of breaking, so it's not like we've got stacks of boards just laying around waiting to get hit.  Most of the time when we break (I've done it twice in the  2 and a half years I've been there), it's on a whim by the instructor.  The kids hit them far more often, but it's still easily sporadic.  It's a "anyone want to break tonight?" kind of thing with the adults, and a "here, punch through this" kind of thing when the teacher is trying to reinforce proper technique with the kids.

Boards are a pain in the butt. You've got to go out and buy them, cut them, bring them to the dojo, etc.  Then they just sit there, taking up space.  If it's part of the curriculum and you're planning ahead, or it's just a routine thing, it's not much of a hassle.  When it's an afterthought, it's a hassle.

Buying boards isn't too expensive, but it adds up.  Buying precut ones is far more expensive per break, and that adds up too, especially if it's not an important part of the program.

I've hit them a few times.  Didn't feel McDojo to me.  My dojo has them. My dojo doesn't feel McDojo to me.

We have 5 or 6 of them.  Some are easier than a single board, some are a lot harder than a single board.  And everything in between.

A time and place for everything.  To be honest, I'd rather hit the rebreakable boards.  Why?  I feel guilty when I break $20 worth of boards in a single evening.  I always feel like breaking boards is a waste of money after you've done it once or twice and proved to yourself that you can do it and it's no big deal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> From the viewpoint of a student, I feel that I've learned a lot more from smaller classes. I can't even imagine a class of 80, but I enjoy the smaller atmosphere, am more motivated, and get to see more of what the people with more experience/better technique than myself have.
> 
> My best experience was at a school that was small, but had a lot of visitors. So the class size would never be more than 10 (at the very most), but it was new people every month or so that were friends of the instructors visiting NYC from all kinds of backgrounds, and I got to experience people from all the different backgrounds. I have no idea how that worked financially, but as a student I loved it.


My favorite class size - both as a teacher and as a student is about 12. I like the variety inherent in having more than 10 people in the room, and the level of attention an instructor can give with just 6 pairs (we nearly always work in pairs or threes, even on solo exercises). The largest class (other than seminars) I've been in was when visiting an Aikido dojo in Lisbon, Portugal. I think there were 30+ people in the room. It was the biggest mat space I've ever been on (must have been over $10,000 worth of Swain mats). There were 3 or 4 instructors on the mats, and a few more brown and black belts training. Not much attention from The Instructor in that one, but easy access to an instructor, when needed. It was fun, but I still prefer 12.


----------



## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> My dojo has a few of those rebreakable boards.  The kids use them most often.  Some beginner adults (or at least adults who haven't broken before) use them too.
> 
> Why do we have them?  They're cheaper than wood in the long run, and they're more convenient.
> 
> We don't do a lot of breaking, so it's not like we've got stacks of boards just laying around waiting to get hit.  Most of the time when we break (I've done it twice in the  2 and a half years I've been there), it's on a whim by the instructor.  The kids hit them far more often, but it's still easily sporadic.  It's a "anyone want to break tonight?" kind of thing with the adults, and a "here, punch through this" kind of thing when the teacher is trying to reinforce proper technique with the kids.
> 
> Boards are a pain in the butt. You've got to go out and buy them, cut them, bring them to the dojo, etc.  Then they just sit there, taking up space.  If it's part of the curriculum and you're planning ahead, or it's just a routine thing, it's not much of a hassle.  When it's an afterthought, it's a hassle.
> 
> Buying boards isn't too expensive, but it adds up.  Buying precut ones is far more expensive per break, and that adds up too, especially if it's not an important part of the program.
> 
> I've hit them a few times.  Didn't feel McDojo to me.  My dojo has them. My dojo doesn't feel McDojo to me.
> 
> We have 5 or 6 of them.  Some are easier than a single board, some are a lot harder than a single board.  And everything in between.
> 
> A time and place for everything.  To be honest, I'd rather hit the rebreakable boards.  Why?  I feel guilty when I break $20 worth of boards in a single evening.  I always feel like breaking boards is a waste of money after you've done it once or twice and proved to yourself that you can do it and it's no big deal.



Do you grade adults with them?


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> You know what's really sad here? The fact that you really do not seem to understand how great a fool you are making yourself look.



I will tell you what's going on. TKD instructors reason: why not throw in boxing punching into the mix where we use our entire body into the mitts, and pretend to offer the entire package of striking. Buggs me to no end. If I do boxing I want proper instructions.


----------



## Axiom

Axiom: Oh, so we're doing the turning punch now? _Instructor_: No, no, no, that's patterns. This is a *boxing* technique"

Sigh.


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I will tell you what's going on. TKD instructors reason: why not throw in boxing punching into the mix where we use our entire body into the mitts, and pretend to offer the entire package of striking. Buggs me to no end. If I do boxing I want proper instructions.


You have seriously contradicted yourself so many times on this forum and you've only been here a week


----------



## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> You have seriously contradicted yourself so many times on this forum and you've only been here a week



I haven't contradicted myself at all. I said that the TKD boxing hook looks very similiar to boxers, I never said it was the same.

IM way ahead of you (not just in IQ).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> I suspect I have a better idea of what TKD trains than you do.
> 
> Anyway, it's getting dark and I shall get off the computer until it's dark tomorrow. I shan't hold my breath hoping you manage to open your mind before tomorrow. Not including myself there is a hell of a lot of collective martial arts wisdom on this thread and you aren't listening to any of them.


Shabbat shalom, Tez.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> The one thing that bugs me about this is that in most cases I will never know which it was.


I'm usually pretty certain I know. Which may just be more evidence of D-K.


----------



## Axiom

I don't have the energy to correct more inaccurate observations. Thank you and godnight!


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I haven't contradicted myself at all. I said that the TKD boxing hook looks very similiar to boxers, I never said it was the same.
> 
> IM way ahead of you (not just in IQ).


Hahahahaha okay.


----------



## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Right, they don't test them at all. Stick around and the belt is yours, although this time no test. I don't see how that's any better.



BJJ also has a different method of testing. And that is other BJJ schools.

If your black belts are getting flogged by everyone else's white belts then your school will look like a bunch of idiots.

Otherwise you would be right.


----------



## andyjeffries

Axiom said:


> They should put me on a time machine to the 60s in South Korea when people lived TKD, there was no sport, no silly half assed boxing thrown in, and I would dedicate my life to it.



There was no sport Taekwondo in South Korea in the 1960's?

I'd recommend going to visit the museum at Kukkiwon in Seoul where there are quite a few photos from tournaments in the 60's, and one of the early hogu (body protector) with bamboo inside.


----------



## andyjeffries

A quotation from the translation of the book Modern History of Taekwondo, by Kang, Won-sik:



> CHOI Hong Hi complained because the name of the art had been changed from Taekwondo to Taesoodo. This meant that the name of the art would become a big issue again between CHOI Hong Hi and the three leaders. CHOI Hong Hi put much effort in the sports (Che Yuk) community and also Taekwondo so he could become the 3rd President of the Korea Taesoodo Association in January 1965.


----------



## Steve

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Many people complain that it's too easy to get a black belt in TKD, and hence it means nothing.
> 
> At the UFC gym I attend, everyone in BJJ is a white belt, even though some of the guys have solid wrestling and look pretty good.  So it's the opposite problem there - white belt means nothing.


That's called sandbagging, and it's considered very bad form to hold back people who merit promotion to the next belt level.

Wrestlers do tend to improve quickly, but strong wrestling doesn't mean they've learned to keep their hips down when they pass guard, or not to give up their backs.  Takes some time.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> I have spoken to BJJ black belts and it's BS that all BJJ schools have a higher level of rigor than Karate, TKD etc. Some (not all): award belts for sticking around long enough.


Those schools will not perform well in competition.  It's a pretty good system.  Competitors at schools that promote too quickly will flounder and perform poorly.  Competitors at schools that sandbag will crush the competition and lead to a poor reputation for that school.  But it all evens out at black belt.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> I have spoken to BJJ black belts and it's BS that all BJJ schools have a higher level of rigor than Karate, TKD etc. Some (not all): award belts for sticking around long enough.


Which particular BJJ black belts have you spoken to, who have shared with you that they award belts for tenure in the school?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> BJJ also has a different method of testing. And that is other BJJ schools.
> 
> If your black belts are getting flogged by everyone else's white belts then your school will look like a bunch of idiots.
> 
> Otherwise you would be right.


Hey! He was beaten by a yellow belt, not a white belt! Way different


----------



## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> My heart cries for TaeKwonDo on the inside given the instructors credentials. What has become of this great art. On the outside I'm fine with it.
> 
> They should put me on a time machine to the 60s in South Korea when people lived TKD, there was no sport, no silly half assed boxing thrown in, and I would dedicate my life to it.
> 
> Hope I didn't make anyone cry from that account. I know it's touching.


No you wouldn't because you'd get nervous apparently according to you.


----------



## Gnarlie

Axiom said:


> I haven't contradicted myself at all. I said that the TKD boxing hook looks very similiar to boxers, I never said it was the same.
> 
> IM way ahead of you (not just in IQ).


Didn't even know there was an ego quotient. Seriously, Axiom, take a break, grab a snack, drink, whatever, and just switch off transmit. You might learn something. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## JR 137

Axiom said:


> Do you grade adults with them?


We don't grade anyone with any boards, real or fake.  Concrete slabs, bricks, roofing tiles, ice blocks, nor any other badass looking stuff either.  We grade by breaking bones and teeth.

Ok, the last line is a stretch.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> Do you grade adults with them?



Rebreakables are cheaper (in the long term), more environmentally supportable, and more consistent break to break than wood. If breaking is a part of a test, there's no reason not to use them.


----------



## JR 137

Dirty Dog said:


> Rebreakables are cheaper (in the long term), more environmentally supportable, and more consistent break to break than wood. If breaking is a part of a test, there's no reason not to use them.


Stupid curiosity question...

Can you stack rebreakables like you can with wood, concrete, etc.?  If yes, I'm pretty sure you have to have the line match up on every board.


----------



## Dirty Dog

JR 137 said:


> Stupid curiosity question...
> 
> Can you stack rebreakables like you can with wood, concrete, etc.?  If yes, I'm pretty sure you have to have the line match up on every board.



Sure. The ones we have come in different colors to indicate difficulty. The easiest one (white) is equal to something like a 3" strip of pine and is suitable for tiny kids. Green is equal to a standard 1" pine board. Black is equal to 2.25" of pine. Stacking them is no more difficult than stacking pine.


----------



## JR 137

Dirty Dog said:


> Rebreakables are cheaper (in the long term), more environmentally supportable, and more consistent break to break than wood. If breaking is a part of a test, there's no reason not to use them.


I just remembered a funny story related to your post...

My former sensei opened a new dojo (relocated, not another one), and we had a Grand Opening day.  We were breaking boards left and right, beating up a guy dressed up as a dojo clown, etc.  I know it sounds McDojo-esque, but we were just having fun and not taking ourselves too seriously.

The head of our organization came to show his support.  One of the guys was trying everything he could to break this single line board.  He punched the thing about 8 times, and he was putting everything he had into it.  I couldn't tell what was going wrong from my angle.  He broke a ton of boards earlier, so it wasn't like he couldn't break a board.  He brings the board over to the head of our organization and asks "what am I doing wrong?"  The head guy laughs and says "See all those knots?  You probably couldn't break that thing with a sledgehammer!"

There were about 8 knots right in the middle of it, and about 10 knuckle indentations in it.  One of the funniest things I've ever seen.  

One more that I was told about in my current dojo...

There was a black belt who'd won the breaking championship a few years in a row in our annual organization tournament.  One year, he failed at a single concrete block (he'd broken several at a time every other year).  After his DQ, he set it up off to the side and was determined to break it.  He hit the thing several times.  Another guy comes up with a sledgehammer and says "here, at least hit it with this."  A chunck flew off and revealed there were iron rods in it (rebar?).  He bought it himself, so it wasn't an intentional setup.  The store he bought it at mislabeled it.

Everyone who knows him now buys an extra one to break with a sledgehammer before attempting to actually hit one for quality control purposes.


----------



## JR 137

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. The ones we have come in different colors to indicate difficulty. The easiest one (white) is equal to something like a 3" strip of pine and is suitable for tiny kids. Green is equal to a standard 1" pine board. Black is equal to 2.25" of pine. Stacking them is no more difficult than stacking pine.


Thanks for that.  I'll give it a try.  We have a few of the colors you listed.  I usually hit the black one. I'll try 2 next time.  Maybe I'll ask my teacher tomorrow.  I haven't broke anything in a few months.  It's fun to change it up every now and then.  Especially when it doesn't cost anything.


----------



## Axiom

andyjeffries said:


> There was no sport Taekwondo in South Korea in the 1960's?
> .



The first ITF World Championship was held in 1974.  There were National Championships prior to that under different names. The real polution started with the WC and the new, silly, semi contact rules with gloves and feet protectors.


----------



## Axiom

Dirty Dog said:


> Rebreakables are cheaper (in the long term), more environmentally supportable, and more consistent break to break than wood. If breaking is a part of a test, there's no reason not to use them.



If those are as hard as wood I must have some freaky knuckles, because smashing them did not feel like anything approximating wood, and I tried the hardest variant.


----------



## TrueJim

Axiom said:


> The first ITF World Championship was held in 1974.  There were National Championships prior to that under different names.



As soon as any activity starts to conduct tournaments, that thing becomes a sport. In the 1960s the tournaments had rules, athletes, coaches, and spectators. Hence: sport. 

I'm not sure what you mean by referencing the 1974 date of the ITF World Championship. Are you saying that something doesn't become a sport until it has its first world championship?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Axiom said:


> If those are as hard as wood I must have some freaky knuckles, because smashing them did not feel like anything approximating wood, and I tried the hardest variant.



A - You don't have enough credibility to convince me that you're a reliable judge.
B - There are lots of different brands of rebreakables. Not knowing what you used, I have no opinion on the accuracy of their engineering.
C - I doubt it's your knuckles that are freaky.


----------



## Axiom

Of course, one shouldn't judge all grandmasters and presidents of federerations based on one guy. Let's hear from Grandmasters Gardner and Rhee Hi Ka:

_- How long would it take to get a black belt in TKD?_ - _Gardner_: Approximately *3 years*, of hard training.

He also adds that: _you'd have to want it really bad. _Excellent criteria for judging TKD proficiency!







We have 5 years of hard training and people were outcrying. Somehow I don't think switching schools would make any difference. My school looks hard-core in comparison.


----------



## JR 137

Axiom said:


> Of course, one shouldn't judge all grandmasters and presidents of federerations based on one guy. Let's hear from Grandmasters Gardner and Rhee Hi Ka:
> 
> _- How long would it take to get a black belt in TKD?_ - _Gardner_: Approximately *3 years*, of hard training.
> 
> He also adds that: _you'd have to want it really bad. _Excellent criteria for judging TKD proficiency!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have 5 years of hard training and people were outcrying. Somehow I don't think switching schools would make any difference. My school looks hard-core in comparison.


So you think a fluff piece on a morning talk show shows anything significant?


----------



## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> So you think a fluff piece on a morning talk show shows anything significant?



No, I was referring to their time required to get a black belt.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> No, I was referring to their time required to get a black belt.


Minimum time to get a black belt (which sounds like they are saying the minimum possible) isn't much of a measure of anything.


----------



## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> Minimum time to get a black belt (which sounds like they are saying the minimum possible) isn't much of a measure of anything.



They did not say minimum. It takes approximately 3 years of consistent training, which frankly is on the higher end of TKD schools of today. Many award it with in 1 and a half and 2 years


----------



## marques

Some websites say you can get your black belt within 3 years, providing you attend 80% of the classes. Weather it is true or not, it sound bad. For the sellers and for the buyers. It looks like the eventual skill is a side effect of getting a black cotton belt.


----------



## marques

Axiom said:


> They did not say minimum. It takes approximately 3 years of consistent training, which frankly is on the higher end of TKD schools of today. Many award it with in 1 and a half and 2 years


I hope you're wrong. I met a guy that got his black belt in 3 years, but he was training 5 times a week. It seems reasonable to me. But less than 3 years...


----------



## Axiom

marques said:


> I hope you're wrong. I met a guy that got his black belt in 3 years, but he was training 5 times a week. It seems reasonable to me. But less than 3 years...



I disagree.


----------



## marques

Axiom said:


> I disagree.


I am sure you know what you're saying. I was just hopping it was not true (2 years or less for a black belt). Do you think 2 years, a few hours a week, may be enough?


----------



## Axiom

marques said:


> I am sure you know what you're saying. I was just hopping it was not true (2 years or less for a black belt). Do you think 2 years, a few hours a week, may be enough?



 5 years is good IMO. Students get the hang of it earlier, but I think time should pass after that as well.


----------



## Steve

I think it should take 20 years to get your black belt.  Otherwise, what's the point?


----------



## Axiom

Steve said:


> I think it should take 20 years to get your black belt.  Otherwise, what's the point?



Ehmm.. A TKD instructor in ITF requires 5 Dan. He will be 150 years old by that time if he starts training as an adult.


----------



## MA_Student

Steve said:


> I think it should take 20 years to get your black belt.  Otherwise, what's the point?


Maybe not 20 years but I'd say at least 8 years. It took me 10 but if you get it after say 2 years. You won't have much more experience than a beginner. I think 5 years is way to short frankly. You need experience as a black belt which you definently don't have after 5 years


----------



## Gerry Seymour

marques said:


> Some websites say you can get your black belt within 3 years, providing you attend 80% of the classes. Weather it is true or not, it sound bad. For the sellers and for the buyers. It looks like the eventual skill is a side effect of getting a black cotton belt.


Yeah, I'm not a fan of advertising for black belt. There may be folks who are well-motivated by that far-off goal, at least when they first join, but they wouldn't fit with my teaching, anyway.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> They did not say minimum. It takes approximately 3 years of consistent training, which frankly is on the higher end of TKD schools of today. Many award it with in 1 and a half and 2 years


My response was based on the quote you posted, which said 3 years of hard work, and you'd really have to want it (meaning it would take a lot of dedication and commitment to get it in that time).

When you say "many" - how many have you actually surveyed for that?

In the end, though, as others have pointed out, it doesn't matter how quickly they promote to BB, so long as it is consistent in its meaning. If they awarded a BB for knowing the first form fairly well, then that's what BB would mean within their system. The only issue comes when the rank doesn't mean anything specific, because there's no consistency.

That said, I'm a fan of BB having more stringent requirements. Many people, on starting MA, view BB as having a vague aura of high competence, and I prefer the requirements to meet that expectation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I think it should take 20 years to get your black belt.  Otherwise, what's the point?


I think it should take a minimum of 90 days - maybe a year. More than that, and you're just making it hard...like there's any value in working hard for it. Pfft.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Maybe not 20 years but I'd say at least 8 years. It took me 10 but if you get it after say 2 years. You won't have much more experience than a beginner. I think 5 years is way to short frankly. You need experience as a black belt which you definently don't have after 5 years


Again, it depends what your expectation of a black belt student is. I tend to think 5 years is a minimum, for someone who works hard and consistently (say, 3 classes a week, plus seminars, plus training on their own, maybe some previous experience to aid understanding). 7 years (pretty close to your 8) is more reasonable for most folks (I think the "normal" in NGA is about 7.5 years - I took 13).


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

MA_Student said:


> Maybe not 20 years but I'd say at least 8 years. It took me 10 but if you get it after say 2 years. You won't have much more experience than a beginner. I think 5 years is way to short frankly. You need experience as a black belt which you definently don't have after 5 years


I'm fairly certain Steve was being (facetious?), throwing out a stupid long amount of time to show a black belt doesn't mean anything specific.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> Again, it depends what your expectation of a black belt student is. I tend to think 5 years is a minimum, for someone who works hard and consistently (say, 3 classes a week, plus seminars, plus training on their own, maybe some previous experience to aid understanding). 7 years (pretty close to your 8) is more reasonable for most folks (I think the "normal" in NGA is about 7.5 years - I took 13).


You've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if you ever explained it. Was there a reason it took you almost double the time to get black belt?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> You've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if you ever explained it. Was there a reason it took you almost double the time to get black belt?


A few reasons. One, I was never driven by rank. I liked being the best at whatever rank I was, so I tended to camp out a while. I also traveled a lot (more than I do now), so it wasn't unusual for me to miss a month of training, then go to twice as much the next month to catch up. That inconsistency doesn't lead to great proficiency at the more technical aspects. And, I just like moving slow - I like investigating and exploring the techniques at each rank (in NGAA, 10 core techniques for each of the 5 student ranks).

I'm also not the fastest learner. I've always had some athleticism, but not a lot. Playing pick-up sports, I was rarely chosen last, but never first. What athleticism I have was hard-won by being active throughout my childhood and 20's.


----------



## Tez3

Wow, can't believe this is still going on. Thought it would be done and dusted by the time I got back!


----------



## JR 137

marques said:


> I am sure you know what you're saying. I was just hopping it was not true (2 years or less for a black belt). Do you think 2 years, a few hours a week, may be enough?


Depends on who you ask.  

There's a classic McDojo about 2 blocks from my work.  I've had a lot of my (academic) students go there.  They've got an after school program with a van that picks the kids up.

I stopped in there one day to see what's going on.  The only payment option is a "black belt plan" where you pay a price (around $4k, and you can make payments) and you train for as long as it takes to get to black belt.  All testing fees included.  So if it takes 10 years or 10 days to get black belt, the price is the same.

They told me the average time it takes to "earn" a black belt is 5 years.  Some people who work hard and are a bit more physically talented have done it in less, but 5 years is the norm.  Nothing too McDojo about that.  And $4k for 5 years (60 months) of training works out to $66.67 per month.  Pretty cheap.

Funny thing is, I have yet to meet anyone who took 5 years.  Most take 2 years.  One kid took 2 and a half.  I seriously wonder where they came up with the 5 year average.  I'm willing to bet they say that to A) make you think it's pretty cheap when you break down the cost; and B) make you/your kid think you're sooo much better than average and you can brag about how little Johnny was so good he did it in half the time it takes everyone else.

I've honestly never heard of anyone taking close to 5 years there.  A few parents I'm familiar with complained about getting conned by that during the contract agreement, yet love the place.  I guess expensive automatically means high quality instruction.  And that's the very tip of the McDojo iceberg for that place.


----------



## Steve

Axiom said:


> Ehmm.. A TKD instructor in ITF requires 5 Dan. He will be 150 years old by that time if he starts training as an adult.


Nah.  Once youve got your 1st dan, I think it should only take 1 year to go up from there.   Except 7th Dan.   That one should take 18 months.


----------



## Steve

MA_Student said:


> Maybe not 20 years but I'd say at least 8 years. It took me 10 but if you get it after say 2 years. You won't have much more experience than a beginner. I think 5 years is way to short frankly. You need experience as a black belt which you definently don't have after 5 years


If you want tonjust give away black belts.  Sure.


----------



## Steve

kempodisciple said:


> I'm fairly certain Steve was being (facetious?), throwing out a stupid long amount of time to show a black belt doesn't mean anything specific.


That might be true.   There are perfectly valid reasons to not have belts, to have belts and to award rank any way you can think of.   As long as the standards are internally consistent and make transparent, who cares?


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> Wow, can't believe this is still going on. Thought it would be done and dusted by the time I got back!


And people still wonder why I feel belts are a silly distraction...


----------



## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> And people still wonder why I feel belts are a silly distraction...



I think there's more going on than just belts to be honest. There's feelings of insecurity, jealousy and just plain naiveté going on with the OP. 
Belts have their uses ( they are very good for pulling dislocated shoulders back into place). For beginners who have no previous knowledge of martial arts they serve as a visible reminder that they are improving, not everyone has the confidence in themselves to be able to tell. Self esteem isn't always high enough in some people either and a belt they know they worked for and have earnt is special to them. 
I know you don't like them but please, don't demean those to whom it is a visible sign they are improving, that they have worked hard, not everyone has your confidence and sense of self worth. They may well be a 'distraction' but not a silly one, they may be a distraction for those who think they aren't good enough, sometimes telling them they are isn't enough, the belts may well distract them from feeling they aren't worthy of training. I have come across a lot like that, and in people who are otherwise quite confident appearing.
  I know a lot of martial arts instructors feel it is only their job to train people in martial arts, not to deal with the person as a person but I'm the sort of instructor who likes to help everyone as much as I can so I guess I like to boost students as much as possible, not by flattery though. When a student has had a hard time with techniques or just can't make it work and then has a break though and grades the sheer joy when they receive their belt is really a great thing to see. It's a badge of honour for them and to say it's silly would be churlish I think. It takes a long time for most people to see that the belt is only a symbol of what they can do, when they gain inner confidence and trust in their abilities they realise they don't need a belt but until ( of if) they reach that point belts are worth having.
Think of belts as training wheels on your bicycle, some people need them, others can ride a bike straight away without needing them but in any case they are a useful tool.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> I think there's more going on than just belts to be honest. There's feelings of insecurity, jealousy and just plain naiveté going on with the OP.
> Belts have their uses ( they are very good for pulling dislocated shoulders back into place). For beginners who have no previous knowledge of martial arts they serve as a visible reminder that they are improving, not everyone has the confidence in themselves to be able to tell. Self esteem isn't always high enough in some people either and a belt they know they worked for and have earnt is special to them.
> I know you don't like them but please, don't demean those to whom it is a visible sign they are improving, that they have worked hard, not everyone has your confidence and sense of self worth. They may well be a 'distraction' but not a silly one, they may be a distraction for those who think they aren't good enough, sometimes telling them they are isn't enough, the belts may well distract them from feeling they aren't worthy of training. I have come across a lot like that, and in people who are otherwise quite confident appearing.
> I know a lot of martial arts instructors feel it is only their job to train people in martial arts, not to deal with the person as a person but I'm the sort of instructor who likes to help everyone as much as I can so I guess I like to boost students as much as possible, not by flattery though. When a student has had a hard time with techniques or just can't make it work and then has a break though and grades the sheer joy when they receive their belt is really a great thing to see. It's a badge of honour for them and to say it's silly would be churlish I think. It takes a long time for most people to see that the belt is only a symbol of what they can do, when they gain inner confidence and trust in their abilities they realise they don't need a belt but until ( of if) they reach that point belts are worth having.
> Think of belts as training wheels on your bicycle, some people need them, others can ride a bike straight away without needing them but in any case they are a useful tool.


Oh, l do know that for some people they can serve a positive purpose.

But for others, they become a silly distraction.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> And people still wonder why I feel belts are a silly distraction...


Except this kind of discussion has never happened inside a school I've been in (and nearly all have used belts). The distraction happens places like this, not where the belts are actually being used. By that measure, hurricanes are a silly distraction, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, l do know that for some people they can serve a positive purpose.
> 
> But for others, they become a silly distraction.


And for some, they simply exist.


----------



## Tez3

The OP's issues are about more than belts.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Except this kind of discussion has never happened inside a school I've been in (and nearly all have used belts). The distraction happens places like this, not where the belts are actually being used. By that measure, hurricanes are a silly distraction, too.


He may be presuming that his own shortcomings are universal.   It happens.   

Psychological projection - Wikipedia


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> He may be presuming that his own shortcomings are universal.   It happens.
> 
> Psychological projection - Wikipedia



This strikes me as being highly likely.


----------



## Fuhrer Drumpf

TrueJim said:


> _Axiom:_ "Believe it or not, most students struggle with executing proper sidekicks."
> 
> _Headhunter: "_What a load of rubbish side kicks are some of the easiest kicks you can throw also what does flexibility have to do with anything you can throw side kicks as low as the knee."
> 
> _Gwai Lo Dan:  "_Well, a respected grandmaster mentions that some people feel you can judge a person's TKD by his/her sidekick (beginning of attached video). And I can do amazing basketball dunks on a 5 foot high net. But that does not make me amazing at dunking."
> 
> Personally, I think side-kicks are challenging. As shown in that video:
> 
> We're taught that the base foot should pivot 180 or nearly so, so that it's facing away from the target.
> As shown in the video, we're taught that the kicking knee should be chambered to the chest with the shin parallel to the ground.
> And of course the kicking foot is pulled back into a foot-blade, which serves as the striking surface.
> Then at full extension, there's only a slight hip turn-over -- WITH THE HIPS IN -- so that you can feel the entire muscle chain along the side, the glutes, and the legs all engaging.
> (As Axiom and that video point-out, a lot of beginners perform the kick with the hip pulled back, so that the kick isn't kicking fully to the side -- so you don't get that nice long muscle chain engaging.)
> At our school, for testing purposes, all kicks need to be above the belt at least, and that includes the side kick of course.
> We keep both fists chambered in front of the torso.
> And then of course after the kick, the kicking knee needs to retract most of the way back to the chest before finally stepping down.
> All of that happens on one leg of course, without losing balance.
> Personally there's no one item on that list that I find difficult -- but simultaneously doing EVERYTHING on that list is, in my opinion.
> 
> I would agree with Headhunter though that if you're only kicking as high as the knee, a side kick is much easier.



Do you want to know the funny thing about all this? My stepfather has been doing Shotokan since the 1960s. He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.

It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique, which is one of the main reasons I've quit TMA and focused on more scientific approaches to fighting.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.
> 
> It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique.



I was instructing some lower belts on the turning kick, and I asked them to try dropping their arm on the kicking side.

Someone said the obvious, "well what do I say to the instructor who says to keep your hands up"?

My answer was "Say you are making a conscious decision in a particular scenario to get more power at the cost of being more exposed." 

But I do like the Simpsons. "No matter how you do it, you are doing it wrong."


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Edit: Double post


----------



## JR 137

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Do you want to know the funny thing about all this? My stepfather has been doing Shotokan since the 1960s. He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.
> 
> It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique, which is one of the main reasons I've quit TMA and focused on more scientific approaches to fighting.


What if all 3 "Japanese grandmasters" were correct?  Wouldn't that mean there's more than 1 way of kicking correctly?

If this issue in TMA bothers you so much, look at MMA.  How many different ways of doing the "same" kick have been successful?

I train TMA (Seido Juku karate).  Watch our class and you'll see almost as many variations on a roundhouse kick as you'll see students.  My teacher will correct technique according to the individual, while keeping "the right way(s)" in mind.  I don't pivot, turn, and lean as much as "the right way."  If/when I do, I overdo it.  My teacher had me change my mechanics to make the kick more effective for me, while keeping the essentials of the kick intact.  The head of our organization (my teacher's teacher) has seen me throw that kick many times.  Never once has he told me it was incorrect.  He has made some further suggestions to improve it, while keeping the essentials of it intact also.  The same can be said for just about any technique.


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## jobo

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Do you want to know the funny thing about all this? My stepfather has been doing Shotokan since the 1960s. He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.
> 
> It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique, which is one of the main reasons I've quit TMA and focused on more scientific approaches to fighting.


but scientifically, there are three correct ways to do any fighting techneque,
1) the way that generated most power
2) the one where you give up power for speed
3) the one where you give up both power and,speed to protect yourself, in case your power and or,speed didn't work

that true for mma or Mt or boxing as well as tma


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## Gwai Lo Dan

JR 137 said:


> What if all 3 "Japanese grandmasters" were correct?  Wouldn't that mean there's more than 1 way of kicking correctly?
> 
> If this issue in TMA bothers you so much, look at MMA.  How many different ways of doing the "same" kick have been successful?
> 
> I train TMA (Seido Juku karate).  Watch our class and you'll see almost as many variations on a roundhouse kick as you'll see students.



My personal viewpoint is that in choosing any technique, and the details of how to throw that technique, I need to consider 4 things:

Offence:
1) How likely am I to land it?
2) If it lands, what does it get me (points, damage, distraction for another technique, etc)?

Defence:
3) What am I exposing (or how am I exposed) when I throw the technique?
4) How much energy will the technique cost me?

On top of that, different people have different bodies, with different limb lengths and levels of flexibility.

So putting it all together, we could both love the roundhouse, yet choose very different ways to do it. If I saw you do a roundhouse very differently than me, I would ask "why" and maybe change the way I do it to, if your pros outweigh the cons (for me and my body).


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Edit: Double post.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

jobo said:


> but scientifically, there are three correct ways to do any fighting techneque,
> 1) the way that generated most power
> 2) the one where you give up power for speed
> 3) the one where you give up both power and,speed to protect yourself, in case your power and or,speed didn't work
> 
> that true for mma or Mt or boxing as well as tma


That's 3 of my 4 things.  The 4th for me is giving up speed and/or power in order to use less energy.


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## Gerry Seymour

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Do you want to know the funny thing about all this? My stepfather has been doing Shotokan since the 1960s. He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.
> 
> It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique, which is one of the main reasons I've quit TMA and focused on more scientific approaches to fighting.


You'll find differences of opinion there, too. Just look at sports that have had a long history of deep analysis (golf is a good example) - you'll find different approaches even there. Why? Because it turns out there's more than one right answer in most cases.

So I'm not surprised different instructors have different ways of teaching kicks. It's actually a good thing.


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## JR 137

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> My personal viewpoint is that in choosing any technique, and the details of how to throw that technique, I need to consider 4 things:
> 
> Offence:
> 1) How likely am I to land it?
> 2) If it lands, what does it get me (points, damage, distraction for another technique, etc)?
> 
> Defence:
> 3) What am I exposing (or how am I exposed) when I throw the technique?
> 4) How much energy will the technique cost me?
> 
> On top of that, different people have different bodies, with different limb lengths and levels of flexibility.
> 
> So putting it all together, we could both love the roundhouse, yet choose very different ways to do it. If I saw you do a roundhouse very differently than me, I would ask "why" and maybe change the way I do it to, if your pros outweigh the cons (for me and my body).


Exactly.  If you really think about it, the only things every roundhouse kick should have are leg comes up from the side with knee bent, leg is swung toward the middle as the lower leg simultaneously straightens.  The rest is up for debate - shin, instep, ball of the foot, hand positioning, target, snap out vs drive through, etc.  All the debatable stuff is going to vary by who's throwing the kick, who they're throwing it against, and what the intended target is.

All IMO.  There's probably some holes in my argument.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Exactly.  If you really think about it, the only things every roundhouse kick should have are leg comes up from the side with knee bent, leg is swung toward the middle as the lower leg simultaneously straightens.  The rest is up for debate - shin, instep, ball of the foot, hand positioning, target, snap out vs drive through, etc.  All the debatable stuff is going to vary by who's throwing the kick, who they're throwing it against, and what the intended target is.
> 
> All IMO.  There's probably some holes in my argument.


I can even add a variable. In NGA, the roundhouse kick is taught with some camouflage - it comes up like a straight kick (what we call "front kick"), and the knee carries the hip through to the roundhouse kicking position.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> I can even add a variable. In NGA, the roundhouse kick is taught with some camouflage - it comes up like a straight kick (what we call "front kick"), and the knee carries the hip through to the roundhouse kicking position.


Like the 'question mark kick or something else?


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## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> Like the 'question mark kick or something else?


A similar concept, but not nearly that sneaky. You could do it pretty easily. Bring your knee up for a front kick, then, instead, turn your hip over and do a roundhouse kick. It's not very powerful - we don't depend on those kicks for finishes. I've been training a standard roundhouse and a Muay Thai-like round kick to supplement it.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I can even add a variable. In NGA, the roundhouse kick is taught with some camouflage - it comes up like a straight kick (what we call "front kick"), and the knee carries the hip through to the roundhouse kicking position.


I've been hit with that one quite often.  Good thing the ones in my dojo who are good at it are also great at controlling it.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> You'll find differences of opinion there, too. Just look at sports that have had a long history of deep analysis (golf is a good example) - you'll find different approaches even there. Why? Because it turns out there's more than one right answer in most cases.
> 
> So I'm not surprised different instructors have different ways of teaching kicks. It's actually a good thing.


Golf doesn't quite work.   The differences arwnt right/wrong.  If it works it works.   The differences are more preference but yhe proof is in the puddinh, as it were.


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## drop bear

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was instructing some lower belts on the turning kick, and I asked them to try dropping their arm on the kicking side.
> 
> Someone said the obvious, "well what do I say to the instructor who says to keep your hands up"?
> 
> My answer was "Say you are making a conscious decision in a particular scenario to get more power at the cost of being more exposed."
> 
> But I do like the Simpsons. "No matter how you do it, you are doing it wrong."



You kick with your head off line to accommodate the lack of protective hand.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Golf doesn't quite work.   The differences arwnt right/wrong.  If it works it works.   The differences are more preference but yhe proof is in the puddinh, as it were.


Same thing with kicks. If it works, it works.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Same thing with kicks. If it works, it works.


That isnt always true.  in fact, id say this is the exception and notnthe rule.   in most martial arts styles, how the kick is exdcuted is arguably more importsnt than whether it works.   if you deviate from the technique, you are very quickly doing something other than that martial art, and are admonished foR it.  

FWIW, this is just fine, as loms its recognized and acknowledged.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> That isnt always true.  in fact, id say this is the exception and notnthe rule.   in most martial arts styles, how the kick is exdcuted is arguably more importsnt than whether it works.   if you deviate from the technique, you are very quickly doing something other than that martial art, and are admonished foR it.
> 
> FWIW, this is just fine, as loms its recognized and acknowledged.


There's some truth in that. Some instructors are very picky that strikes be done a specific way. I'm not one of them. If a student comes in with a round kick that works, I don't want them to lose it. I do eventually want them to learn the way I teach it, but only so they can explore and see what works for them. If they get their teaching certificate and want to teach the method they brought in, that's groovy - so long as it works, and they can teach it in a way that makes it useful. I'm even okay with a student teaching other students an approach they learned elsewhere. I have a student who has been with me 2 years. He heads back to Germany probably late next year. Before he goes, I'll probably ask him to share a few useful bits from his Shotokan training - whatever he thinks will most benefit other students.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> There's some truth in that. Some instructors are very picky that strikes be done a specific way. I'm not one of them. If a student comes in with a round kick that works, I don't want them to lose it. I do eventually want them to learn the way I teach it, but only so they can explore and see what works for them. If they get their teaching certificate and want to teach the method they brought in, that's groovy - so long as it works, and they can teach it in a way that makes it useful. I'm even okay with a student teaching other students an approach they learned elsewhere. I have a student who has been with me 2 years. He heads back to Germany probably late next year. Before he goes, I'll probably ask him to share a few useful bits from his Shotokan training - whatever he thinks will most benefit other students.


Spend some time in the wing chun section, the ninja section, the karate section or the kung fu section.   Power generation isn't enough.  How you generate power is not just relevant.  Its the entire point.   Whether is works or not is a happy by product of doing it right.  And if it doesnt work, there must be some nuance you dobr fully understand.  

Its aphilosophy that is completely reverse from most other things we learn.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Spend some time in the wing chun section, the ninja section, the karate section or the kung fu section.   Power generation isn't enough.  How you generate power is not just relevant.  Its the entire point.   Whether is works or not is a happy by product of doing it right.  And if it doesnt work, there must be some nuance you dobr fully understand.
> 
> Its aphilosophy that is completely reverse from most other things we learn.


For me, if it doesn't somehow conflict with the strategy/tactics I'm teaching, I'm okay with it (an example would be the angle-cutting of Shotokan - it doesn't work for getting access to most of our grappling, and doesn't really set up much in the way of controlling their structure). I will say that in many cases (definitely not all), if a student can't get a technique to work, it really is a problem of understanding. Some techniques aren't as straightforward as a single-leg takedown. I wouldn't put most of them in the "pocket technique" category, though.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> For me, if it doesn't somehow conflict with the strategy/tactics I'm teaching, I'm okay with it (an example would be the angle-cutting of Shotokan - it doesn't work for getting access to most of our grappling, and doesn't really set up much in the way of controlling their structure). I will say that in many cases (definitely not all), if a student can't get a technique to work, it really is a problem of understanding. Some techniques aren't as straightforward as a single-leg takedown. I wouldn't put most of them in the "pocket technique" category, though.



Yeah but if you don't train functionality as a priority. Understanding is a big ask.

Like that confused look you get from guys when they go from pads to sparring. They thought they understood the technique. Then found out they really didn't.


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## JR 137

drop bear said:


> Yeah but if you don't train functionality as a priority. Understanding is a big ask.
> 
> Like that confused look you get from guys when they go from pads to sparring. They thought they understood the technique. Then found out they really didn't.


And they find out that pads and punching bags don't move out of the way and try to hit you back.

Reminded me of when I used to hit the bag at my local YMCA.  Every so often someone would say "you're a great fighter" or "you should compete in kickboxing."  Seriously, I heard that once or twice a week.  I'd always smile and reply "I wouldn't look nearly as good if that bag actually ducked and hit me back."  They'd usually nod in agreement.


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## Axiom

Steve said:


> That isnt always true.  in fact, id say this is the exception and notnthe rule.   in most martial arts styles, how the kick is exdcuted is arguably more importsnt than whether it works.   if you deviate from the technique, you are very quickly doing something other than that martial art, and are admonished foR it.
> 
> FWIW, this is just fine, as loms its recognized and acknowledged.



It drives me insane when instructors emphazise non cruical elements to techniques, as if your own personal preference is wrong. For instance how to chamber rear leg sidekicks is one. There are at least 4 different ways and they are equally functional.


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## Balrog

Headhunter said:


> Eugh I hate when people say that "you will recieve your black belt next year" well how do you know you will you may fail the test I just can't stand it when people say that like they know they're going to be given no matter what


Big difference between being eligible to test and being ready to test.  I speak from painful experience.


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