# Kukkiwon usage of honorifics and grade



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

A lot has been made on a good number of threads regarding time in grade, the honorifics for first dan students, and what a first dan should represent.

I would like to know the following: 

What is the Korean word which the Kukkiwon applies to first dan students which is being rendered as 'master' in English?
To any of you who know, how is that honorific used in Korea and is it used outside of taekwondo or the martial arts?
What level of mastery/proficiency is expected of a first dan from the perspective of Kukkiwon seniors?
For those who are familiar with the one year first dan students in Korea, how does their technical ability compare to first dan students in the US who may take anywhere from two to five years to reach first dan?
I am posting this because I would like to actually know the answer to the questions, not to provide people with an outlet for org bashing, so if you cannot contribute or participate politely, then please refrain from posting.

Thank you


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What level of mastery/proficiency is expected of a first dan from the perspective of Kukkiwon seniors?
> For those who are familiar with the one year first dan students in Korea, how does their technical ability compare to first dan students in the US who may take anywhere from two to five years to reach first dan?



I have no idea personally what the answers are to these questions, but these videos from a test in Busan have been posted before.  You can see the candidates performing poomsae and doing some light sparring.


[yt]zFkrN-XYxZE[/yt]   

[yt]Bt-2JPcy82s[/yt]


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A lot has been made on a good number of threads regarding time in grade, the honorifics for first dan students, and what a first dan should represent.
> 
> I would like to know the following:
> 
> What is the Korean word which the Kukkiwon applies to first dan students which is being rendered as 'master' in English?




My sources for the following information are: Kukkiwon Instructors Course, World Taekwondo Federation old website question and answer message board, Kyong Myong Lee's books, e-mail from Kyong Myong Lee and other pioneers.


1st Dan in Korean language is literally "Ill Dan" and falls into the general category of "yudanja" which is literally "holder dan person." Kodanja would be 5th Dan up. All Dan holders wear a solid black belt according to Kukkiwon standard

1st Poom in Korean language is literally "Ill Poom" and fall into the general category of "yupoomja" which is literally "holder poom person." 1st Poom DOES NOT wear a black belt according to Kukkiwon standard

Other than that, Kukkiwon does not have a specific Korean language honorific for either yundanja, yupoomja or kodanja. However, they do have a specific honorific attached to these terms for English language speakers.  "Yudanja and yupoomja = Master (same as Mister/Miss), Kodanja= Grandmaster (same as Sir/ma'm), neither term mean Sabum.

That said Korean language speakers will refer to each other with various honorifics of courtesy and respect that do not fit in to the English language well. A younger Korean might refer to a much older Korea who may, or may not even be a martial artist as Sabumnim, Hyung, Hyungnim, etc, depending on the circumstance and subject of the conversation.  This confuses English speakers.

To any of you who know, how is that honorific used in Korea and is it used outside of taekwondo or the martial arts?
See my above comment.

What level of mastery/proficiency is expected of a first dan from the perspective of Kukkiwon seniors?
1) From capable practitioners it would be correctness of basic motions, poomsae, sparring skill, breaking, jung shin, attitude, appearance, be on time for the test, submit an application approve by your Kukkiwon certified instructor.  

2) From practitioners not as capable, the best they can do in accord with the above.

3) From practitioners from some non-Kukkiwon form of Taekwondo any "Dan transfer" would based on trust and agreement to strive for their best in accord with #1 above.

4) From supporters of Taekwondo, a record of strong support to the growth and development and the recommendation of a leader of Taekwondo.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> For those who are familiar with the one year first dan students in Korea, how does their technical ability compare to first dan students in the US who may take anywhere from two to five years to reach first dan?



I have sat and watch poom and dan testing at Kukkiwon and I have sat and watched/judged geup, poom and dan test around different states in the USA and other nations, to many in fact.

At all testings, you see various levels of proficiency, however at the Kukkiwon, there were more Taekwondoin at high levels of proficiency. Something you only find occasionally in other nations, however, a fair share of those testing for the 1st poom and dan at Kukkiwon looked on equal level with the general testing populations I have seen outside of Korea. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am posting this because I would like to actually know the answer to the questions, not to provide people with an outlet for org bashing, so if you cannot contribute or participate politely, then please refrain from posting.
> 
> Thank you


----------



## TKDinAK (Feb 17, 2012)

Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.

No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 17, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.
> 
> No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?



They don't look unlike many BBs in commerical American dojang.  It's not my preference, but it's been expressed many times that 1st dan should be considered a low rank, and following that guideline, these students look fine.  Hopefully they'll stick with it and they will progress at whatever rate their natural ability permits them.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I have no idea personally what the answers are to these questions, but these videos from a test in Busan have been posted before.  You can see the candidates performing poomsae and doing some light sparring.
> 
> [yt]zFkrN-XYxZE[/yt]
> 
> [yt]Bt-2JPcy82s[/yt]



Interesting video. I am not sure what that was exactly though it appeared to be a testing of mostly "foreigner" students. I know that some instructors will take there students and test them personally in Korea, but they can not have them officially tested at the Kukkiwon, unless the student has proof of residency in Korea for at least 6 months. I have tested some of my students in Korea, but was not permitted to have those without 6 months of residency officially tested by the Kukkiwon.  If I brought over a large group, I could test them at a gym with the help of some seniors, but I would have to sign the application and had submit it myself and could do a belt presentation myself at the Kukkiwon if I like.

So I don't know about that video.  I have seem massive testings at Kukkiwon, but if I recall correctly, they all wore hogu and did actual sparring, and broke tiles as well. I think all persons living in Korea, and Korean citizens, must take the official physical test at Kukkiwon. I don't if that testing was official.


----------



## ATC (Feb 17, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.
> 
> No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?


Yes I would have to agree with you. I am KKW certified 3rd Dan and those were some pretty pathetic forms. Very week and sloppy. I am very surprised as we here in the states always hear how everything is better in Korea.

With that said we have had a few students that moved from Korea that joined our dojang and I was surprised at their level of skill. Surprised or should I say disappointed. They did not live up to my expectation knowing that they were from Korea and did not impress at all.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> Wow. OK... I train in an ITF school... and I have no clue what Patterns/Forms/Poomsae are supposed to look like in the WTF/Kukkiwon. That said... the movements in those vids look very, very uninspired. Very little power and all the students are off time from one another.
> 
> No offense meant to those performing... because admittedly, I'm ignorant concerning these forms and testing qualifications... but I would like to know others opinions. Are these forms/poomsae in the vids above considered BB level of performance?



I agree, it's not the most inspiring technical example of Taekwondo and of course I personally would like to see a higher level of skill like I would for all Taekwondoin, but 1st Dan is very low rank and not an usually an expert. The goal is that if they do get the 1st dan that it inspires them to continue on and improve. But there Sabumnim is the true judge of that, I really don't know anything about how hard they worked, or what potential they have.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Interesting video. I am not sure what that was exactly though it appeared to be a testing of mostly "foreigner" students.



<shrugs>  I see more Asian faces than Caucasian.  You would be the expert though on KKW testing regs.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> [/LIST]1st Dan in Korean language is literally "Ill Dan" and falls into the general category of "yudanja" which is literally "holder dan person." Kodanja would be 5th Dan up. All Dan holders wear a solid black belt according to Kukkiwon standard
> 
> 1st Poom in Korean language is literally "Ill Poom" and fall into the general category of "yupoomja" which is literally "holder poom person." 1st Poom DOES NOT wear a black belt according to Kukkiwon standard
> 
> Other than that, Kukkiwon does not have a specific Korean language honorific for either yundanja, yupoomja or kodanja. However, they do have a specific honorific attached to these terms for English language speakers. "*Yudanja and yupoomja = Master (same as Mister/Miss)*, Kodanja= Grandmaster (same as Sir/ma'm), neither term mean Sabum.


I am curious as to why they chose to use the term, 'master' given the connotations that it has to English speakers, particularly in the martial arts.  Not criticizing it, but I am curious.  Certainly, they had to know that doing so would potentially raise more than a few eyebrows.  

Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term.  Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.

I am not critical; it is the honorific that the organzition is associating with first through third (?) dan practitioners.  

Given that they are trying to convey mister/miss/mrs., why not simply use those designations?


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

ATC said:


> Yes I would have to agree with you. I am KKW certified 3rd Dan and those were some pretty pathetic forms. Very week and sloppy. I am very surprised as we here in the states always hear how everything is better in Korea.



It appears they were "foreigners", not Korean citizens. Compared to a National Poomsae Team members, Poomsae, they were weak and sloppy. But then most practitioners Poomsae compared to National Team members Poomsae might be considered the same.  



ATC said:


> With that said we have had a few students that moved from Korea that joined our dojang and I was surprised at their level of skill. Surprised or should I say disappointed. They did not live up to my expectation knowing that they were from Korea and did not impress at all.



I have had Korean and other foreign practitioners come to our dojang to train for a few days, or stay for a year, or more. Some were no so skilled, some average, some amazing.  That said, the most amazing have been those who trained on university teams in Korea.  Never met a less than amazing one of those.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I have no idea personally what the answers are to these questions, but these videos from a test in Busan have been posted before. You can see the candidates performing poomsae and doing some light sparring.
> 
> 
> [yt]zFkrN-XYxZE[/yt]
> ...


This is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the entirety of the geub level material.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  I see more Asian faces than Caucasian.  You would be the expert though on KKW testing regs.



English speaking people doing filming appeared to calling the Asian boy with the glasses, Adam. The testing referee was using all hand signals and pointing and guiding the participants who appeared not to understand Korean.  But actually I don't know if that was official or not, it might have been, but it just did not appear to be official to me, from what I have experienced.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> English speaking people doing filming appeared to calling the Asian boy with the glasses, Adam. The testing referee was using all hand signals and pointing and guiding the participants who appeared not to understand Korean.  But actually I don't know if that was official or not, it might have been, but it just did not appear to be official to me, from what I have experienced.



I'm counting Mr. Glasses as a westerner.  I'm more looking at the people further in the back as well as the other groups not in the primary focus of the filmers.  They look Asian to me.  I count maybe 3-4 westerners tops in those videos, at least going by appearance solely.  

This is unimportant to me however.  If you don't think this was an official KKW testing, who am I to say differently?


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

if my students looked like that testing for intermediate rank, i would fail them on the spot, that was crap from start to finish. No balance, no power, no spirit. That was horrible for even ONE year of training. This just vindicated my feelings on this matter.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am curious as to why they chose to use the term, 'master' given the connotations that it has to English speakers, particularly in the martial arts.  Not criticizing it, but I am curious.  Certainly, they had to know that doing so would potentially raise more than a few eyebrows.



I'm not sure exactly why, I can guess that their application of the word is as a noun, verses as an adjective or verb as "yudanja" and "kodanja" refer to the person, I assume a noun. But, I only know what I learned from them by example and in writing. They called everyone at the course "master" even 1st dan and up. They told us that if we can pass the test, then they will consider us as qualified Sabum's (instructors). They gave out graduation awards to 1st Dan's and up that had the honorific "Master" before their name.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term.  Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.



Titles in Korean language are different. Example: Seonsang-nim has "nim" which is a courtesy add on term for a man. Seonsang-nim is generally used for a school teacher, but also applies to women school teachers. Korean language like Korean society, is male dominant, and does not address this issue in the exact same way we do in the USA or possible UK. English though is THE International language.  American and UK customs don't always apply. Today American women are on equal footing with men and our language and honorifics have mostly been adjusted to reflect this.  This is not so in most of the rest of the world that uses English as an international language.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am not critical; it is the honorific that the organzition is associating with first through third (?) dan practitioners.



1st through 5th = master (yudanja)    6th through 9th grandmaster (kodanja).  And I do not think you are being critical.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Given that they are trying to convey mister/miss/mrs., why not simply use those designations?



I'm not sure, but it's a good idea.  Actually at one time there was sort of a movement with in the old USTU to do away with "master" and "grandmaster" as honorifics, but that was within our small pond in the USA.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I'm counting Mr. Glasses as a westerner.  I'm more looking at the people further in the back as well as the other groups not in the primary focus of the filmers.  They look Asian to me.  I count maybe 3-4 westerners tops in those videos, at least going by appearance solely.
> 
> This is unimportant to me however.  If you don't think this was an official KKW testing, who am I to say differently?



It's not that I don't think it was, I don't know for sure.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin,

I have seen videos that you have posted and I could say the same thing. I have also seen a black belt test at the kukkiwon and although it was about 300 kids the skill was average; every now and then I saw an amazing one. The high school teams in Korean are very skilled and stunning to see as are collegiate ones.

Just like our country most just do this as something fun and that is okay.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> if my students looked like that testing for intermediate rank, i would fail them on the spot, that was crap from start to finish. No balance, no power, no spirit. That was horrible for even ONE year of training. This just vindicated my feelings on this matter.



Well, then no reason to keep hiding your greatness from us, please, in the name of altruism and by all means, bring your fantastic self and your superior students to our events so we can all mix in and learn from your wonderful ability. You have the invite and the chance to change the Taekwondo world. Come teach us, that would be exciting, I know I am always in search of such greatness and most others are too.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.

simple question.

would you have passed any of them for BLACK BELT? 

cuz i wouldnt. I would pass them for BLUE, much less black.


And the vids i posted years ago? those were all BEGINNERS, with less than a year of training. And thier power, balance and spirit FAR exceeded what those BLACKBELT candidates showed. And  my students at the level you saw them? i wouldnt have passed THEM for blue either.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Well, then no reason to keep hiding your greatness from us, please, in the name of altruism and by all means, bring your fantastic self and your superior students to our events so we can all mix in and learn from your wonderful ability. You have the invite and the chance to change the Taekwondo world. Come teach us, that would be exciting, I know I am always in search of such greatness and most others are too.



I do not think Twin is trying to be mean, he has a bad taste in his mouth about the WTF/Kukkiwon Taekwondo.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.
> 
> simple question.
> 
> would you have passed any of them for BLACK BELT?



Actually, I would not.  I agree that they are not very good but to lump them into, "kukkiwon black belts suck", is not right.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Twin,
> 
> I have seen videos that you have posted and I could say the same thing. I have also seen a black belt test at the kukkiwon and although it was about 300 kids the skill was average; every now and then I saw an amazing one. The high school teams in Korean are very skilled and stunning to see as are collegiate ones.
> 
> Just like our country most just do this as something fun and that is okay.



Master Southwick does not look at anyone and state "that's crap", though he would have ground to stand on if he did. As a USA National Poomsae Team member, takes his own time, travels around the USA and helps people improve there skills, encouraging them to become better, by word and then by demonstration.  He also does it by example, officially representing the USA in difficult and highly scrutinized international level competition against the world best Taekwondo practitioners.

He actually does something to improve Taekwondo, regardless of what he dislikes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.
> 
> simple question.
> 
> ...



Since "rank x" has different meanings to different people, could you perhaps post videos of your current students, so we can see what standard they're held to? 
It's all well and good to criticise others, but it's far more useful to show, by specific example, how your way is better.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

still trying to make it personal aint ya?

*sigh*




mastercole said:


> Well, then no reason to keep hiding your greatness from us, please, in the name of altruism and by all means, bring your fantastic self and your superior students to our events so we can all mix in and learn from your wonderful ability. You have the invite and the chance to change the Taekwondo world. Come teach us, that would be exciting, I know I am always in search of such greatness and most others are too.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Master Southwick does not look at anyone and state "that's crap", though he would have ground to stand on if he did. As a USA National Poomsae Team member, takes his own time, travels around the USA and helps people improve there skills, encouraging them to become better, by word and then by demonstration.  He also does it by example, officially representing the USA in difficult and highly scrutinized international level competition against the world best Taekwondo practitioners.
> 
> He actually does something to improve Taekwondo, regardless of what he dislikes.



Thank you Master Cole but I like Twins blunt rants, lol.  I am by no means good at poomsae yet.  There are many that I consider much better, like poomsaeguy and miles, but I will take the comment with respect.  I wish I was so refined that I could not say, &#8220;That is crap&#8221;, as the truth is I often do - but too myself, lol.  I want to represent my teacher, my country and my art in a positive way so as to inspire others to achieve, like the ones before me.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

and i didnt say KKW blackbelts suck, every org will have great, crappy, and lots in between

I have thought the KKW doesnt care about ensuring standards of performance and quality, and rushing people to BB after one year of training tends to support that thought.




MSUTKD said:


> Actually, I would not.  I agree that they are not very good but to lump them into, "kukkiwon black belts suck", is not right.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the entirety of the geub level material.



Degree of work put in and potential are very important in grading/promoting a student.  However, in my school, you cannot earn your bb in less then 3 years.  If the regulations were different, and you could earn it in a year, I would agree, these students look like those who went to class 2x a week for about a year (which equates to our 5th gup).  , but crammed all gup level material into that year of training.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am curious as to why they chose to use the term, 'master' given the connotations that it has to English speakers, particularly in the martial arts.  Not criticizing it, but I am curious.  Certainly, they had to know that doing so would potentially raise more than a few eyebrows.
> 
> Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term.  Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.
> 
> ...



I wonder that myself.. .  True it does not matter.. . But since Sabum has, in the past, been compared to "Master,"  I can see where the confusion sets in.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

The great thing about the kukkiwon is that they do not tell you to do anything; they present the information as guidelines.   My teacher does not teach exactly from the kukkiwon curriculum, he adds many of his own ideas.  Before the poomsae standards were really being pushed we did things a bit different, not much but different.  When I began training for the 2006 Poomsae Team Trials I had to change and my teacher was fine with that.  If fact he told me to make everybody in our group change so that we could continue to unify the standards.  He knew that taekwondo had been changed so much from what it was intended to be that this was a step back to what it should be.  The poomsae standards are a great thing for taekwondo and I have seen in the last few years a vast improvement in students skills and understanding because of it.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I wonder that myself.. .  True it does not matter.. . But since Sabum has, in the past, been compared to "Master,"  I can see where the confusion sets in.



If one has a western understanding then maybe but if you understand the language and culture sabum does not mean &#8220;Master&#8221; as we would say it.  It literally means, &#8220;Teacher of teachers&#8221;.  Look at it from that idea and it might make more sense.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

I would love to, but my school is closed for the time being. I went back to college full time for my nursing degree. I am unsure bout trying to teach again or just be a student. 

But i know how to teach, i know what is good and what isnt good.

power

focus

balance

when it isnt there, anyone should be able to see it, and tell the truth

forget being nice, forget being polite, lets be HONEST

the people in that clip honestly were not good. They were not IMO even ready to test for intermediate rank, much less BB. That isnt their fault, it is the fault of their teacher.


Dirty Dog said:


> Since "rank x" has different meanings to different people, could you perhaps post videos of your current students, so we can see what standard they're held to?
> It's all well and good to criticise others, but it's far more useful to show, by specific example, how your way is better.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> I would love to, but my school is closed for the time being. I went back to college full time for my nursing degree. I am unsure bout trying to teach again or just be a student.
> 
> But i know how to teach, i know what is good and what isnt good.
> 
> ...



Understandable. So is there anything, then, that prevents you from posting videos of your own performance? That would give us at least some idea of your standards, by comparing your performance to that of people of similar rank within our own systems.

Personally, I think it is entirely possible to be honest while remaining both nice and polite.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Feb 17, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> If one has a western understanding then maybe but if you understand the language and culture sabum does not mean &#8220;Master&#8221; as we would say it.  It literally means, &#8220;Teacher of teachers&#8221;.  Look at it from that idea and it might make more sense.



I totally agree.  However, it is commonly the general public's perception, that "Master" is a high rank, often equivalent of a rank that "Sabum" is given.  In our association, we use Jo Kyo Nim for 1st dans, Boo Sah Bum Nim for 2nd and 3rd, and Sah Bum Nim for 4th dan and up.  However, this is where it gets confusing, since there is really only one Sah Bum Nim at each school (the school owner).  

Personally, I do not fancy the terms "Master" or "Grandmaster," but I use them where there are supposed to be (I was taught that 5th dan= association master, 6th dan and up= Master, however, I know that others use the term at different ranks).  I consider myself a teacher and instructor, and after 26 years of practice, I have taught those who have went on to become teachers themselves, so I think Sah Bum is an appropriate honorific, but I still don't feel that comfortable with being called "Master Rush," even though that's what the standard is and that's how many of my students refer to me.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

it might be possible for you to be nice AND honest at the same time.

it isnt easy for me, because i am not a nice person. In all reality, i am pretty much an ***.

I have to TRY to be nice. Most of the time i dont bother, to tell the truth. No point since sooner or later I offend everyone....

here was my last test, 3 years ago, doing Sae Jong. 






I would rate my performance of this form as unacceptable. my lost my balance for a sec, and I wasnt as familiar with the form as i should have been. Only worked on it for about 4 weeks (Actually a funny story behind that. Ask me about it sometime.) it was not a 4th dan BB level performance

So you see, i apply those same admittedly harsh standards to myself as well.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

Well Twin,

I will not comment on the performance but not many others would actually post a video
of themselves doing anything, I give you respect!


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

its ok Ron, i know i looked like crap on that test. Like I said, it was unacceptable by my own standards.

but thats the thing, i dont use myself as the standard of "accpetable"

i want my students, and everyone's students to be better than ME, i suck. I am old and fat.

I want, no i expect people to be FAR better than me


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> it might be possible for you to be nice AND honest at the same time.
> 
> it isnt easy for me, because i am not a nice person. In all reality, i am pretty much an ***.



That makes me wonder why you'd choose to pursue a nursing degree. That is not, generally, a profession for those who have a difficult time being nice.



Twin Fist said:


> I have to TRY to be nice. Most of the time i dont bother, to tell the truth. No point since sooner or later I offend everyone....



And you don't see any point in trying to change this?



Twin Fist said:


> here was my last test, 3 years ago, doing Sae Jong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did your instructors consider your performance acceptable? If so, did you accept a promotion that you felt you did not deserve?

And thank you for posting the video.


----------



## MSUTKD (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> I want, no i expect people to be FAR better than me



Well, I would say that makes you a good teacher.  It is okay because I suck too but I am trying to get better everyday.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> still trying to make it personal aint ya?
> 
> *sigh*



No I am looking for a quality teachers and you claim to be one.  Don't take it personal.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 17, 2012)

thread drift BIG TIME

do i need to start a new topic since every seems more interested in talkign about me than the subject at hand?


----------



## TKDinAK (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.
> 
> simple question.
> 
> ...



I am sure they wouldn't have passed in our school either. Not a chance. And yes, our green belt class shows more precision, control and effort than what I saw in those vids.

I think that if, as Daniel Sullivan suggested, these are students who have had only one year of training and have had to learn all their patterns in that time... I can see how they could appear so discombobulated. But how is this a good idea? Shouldn't a student testing for Black Belt in TKD, regardless of organization, perform at a MUCH higher level than what is shown in those vids? And shouldn't they be given the proper time to do so?


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I totally agree.  However, it is commonly the general public's perception, that "Master" is a high rank, often equivalent of a rank that "Sabum" is given.  In our association, we use Jo Kyo Nim for 1st dans, Boo Sah Bum Nim for 2nd and 3rd, and Sah Bum Nim for 4th dan and up.  However, this is where it gets confusing, since there is really only one Sah Bum Nim at each school (the school owner).
> 
> Personally, I do not fancy the terms "Master" or "Grandmaster," but I use them where there are supposed to be (I was taught that 5th dan= association master, 6th dan and up= Master, however, I know that others use the term at different ranks).  I consider myself a teacher and instructor, and after 26 years of practice, I have taught those who have went on to become teachers themselves, so I think Sah Bum is an appropriate honorific, but I still don't feel that comfortable with being called "Master Rush," even though that's what the standard is and that's how many of my students refer to me.



My feeling is just simply call every black belt holder master or grandmaster, then it looses the false meaning the general American public learned to associate with the term.  That places everyone on the same level, removes delusion and we can see a person for what they actually do, not what they are called.

That fact is that when our Korean seniors came over here, they decided what they would do in terms of who is this or that.  Example here in my own region there was total confusion in the 70's and 80's as to what was what.  Some Korean master's followed together, some did not not, but all of them made up there own system of titles, etc.  Do I blame them?  NO. No one had yet figured it out!  Do I think it is wrong if they still do it?  No. I do think it is wrong for them to state it is correct because that is they way they have been doing it for so long.

But now we know, and what we know comes from the teachers of the Korean masters that came here to America, so I will not go by what this instructor says, or that instructor says, I will follow what the Kukkiwon says on the issue, because that comes from the most senior instructors of all.  As I said, I like the Kukkiwon's view, and I think it takes away all the confusion that has been around for all these years.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 17, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Well, I would say that makes you a good teacher.  It is okay because I suck too but I am trying to get better everyday.



I think every good teacher wants there students to be better and more knowledgeable than they are and I feel accomplished that I have students that have become much better than I ever was. I tell students on a regular basis they should strive to become the best they can. But, I never think in terms of sucks, etc. It's not my nature to think or speak in that way about others or about myself. Is it my nature to get into debates with others? I think that answer is obvious   The reason might not be though.


----------



## puunui (Feb 17, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> However, it is commonly the general public's perception, that "Master" is a high rank, often equivalent of a rank that "Sabum" is given.



I've met many non-martial arts practitioners who are under the impression that "black belt" is the highest rank and that it is the equivalent of "master". The general public doesn't know about the different degrees of dan rank.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> if my students looked like that testing for intermediate rank, i would fail them on the spot, that was crap from start to finish. No balance, no power, no spirit. That was horrible for even ONE year of training. This just vindicated my feelings on this matter.



As I said earlier, this is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week  and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the  entirety of the geub level material. 

Ten geub levels, eight taegeuk pumse, plus maybe one basic pumse, all of the individual techniques, sparring, and any one step sparring compressed into one year.  This is the result.

They do not consider first degree to be anything more than essentially a beginning rank.  While they certainly aren't colored belt masterpieces, they aren't supposed to be.  

You are focusing on the belt.  It is a different system, so the belt and rank are immaterial.  The question is how do they look after four years of training?  Which is where you have stated the average should be.  One year to ildan, another to yidan, and two more after that to sadan.  that means a total of ten forms plus whatever basic form they may be taught prior to learning taegeuks. 

So instead of comparing a four year black belt to a one or two year black belt, you need to compare students from each system after four years of training.


----------



## TKDinAK (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks, Daniel. That makes more sense. My instructor tells us that attaining Black Belt is just the beginning... the real training starts after that. Never quite understood that, as I am training my @$$ off right now one year in at green belt!  Guess I will get a better perspective once I reach that point.

One thing I don't quite get though... from my understanding, earning a Black Belt has always been held in high regard. You had to work long and hard to get it. When and how did it change to a one year process?


----------



## puunui (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As I said earlier, this is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week  and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the  entirety of the geub level material.



I believe students in korea are expected to come to class five days per week (monday-friday), with saturday being tournament day.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> One thing I don't quite get though... from my understanding, earning a Black Belt has always been held in high regard. You had to work long and hard to get it. When and how did it change to a one year process?


From what I have gathered from nearly everyone who has spent time in Korea, the process has pretty much always been that way.  Learn ten geubs of basics, get first dan and then either quit or start seriously practicing.

Really my biggest issue in the US with black belts is the way that it has turned into such a money pit.  But that is really another subject.


----------



## puunui (Feb 17, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> One thing I don't quite get though... from my understanding, earning a Black Belt has always been held in high regard. You had to work long and hard to get it. When and how did it change to a one year process?



The Moo Duk Kwan started that standard in the 1940s, one year to 1st Dan. The Chung Do Kwan took two years, training five days per week. But under the Chung Do Kwan, you could make it from 8th guep white belt to 7th Dan in I believe 15 years.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> I believe students in korea are expected to come to class five days per week (monday-friday), with saturday being tournament day.


Cannot comment on that.  Nor will I get into any sort of overly negative critique of the people in the videos.  My main point is that they've been training for a year, so to compare them to students who have been training for four based entirely upon the black piece of cloth around their waist is misleading.


----------



## puunui (Feb 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My main point is that they've been training for a year, so to compare them to students who have been training for four based entirely upon the black piece of cloth around their waist is misleading.



It is just a different standard in Korea. 1st Dan/Poom is looked upon as a low grade, the lowest on the scale of 1 through 9. No one in Korea gets excited over it. Outside of Korea though, 1st Dan or "black belt" is a big deal. Many schools teach that your goal is to reach black belt, that you "be" a black belt not just wear one, and so forth. There really is no standardization as to what is or isn't a black belt level. Even at tournaments in the color belt and black belt divisions, you see a huge variance in quality and skill between students of the same rank. In fact, you see a huge variance in quality and skill within the same dojang under the same teacher, just like you see a huge variance in ability for regular school for students of the same age and grade, in the same school. 

I used to think this guy is worthy or that person is not, but I stopped thinking like that when I realized that it lead nowhere to be like that. Now I try not to judge other people's teaching or students.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> it might be possible for you to be nice AND honest at the same time.
> 
> it isnt easy for me, because i am not a nice person. In all reality, i am pretty much an ***.
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with the form, but you looked fine to me.  

I only have one criticism, which is that the American flag is hung backwards; when hung vertically, the blue field should be to the left.

You always had my respect, but I definitely respect you putting up the video.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> I am sure they wouldn't have passed in our school either. Not a chance. And yes, our green belt class shows more precision, control and effort than what I saw in those vids.
> 
> I think that if, as Daniel Sullivan suggested, these are students who have had only one year of training and have had to learn all their patterns in that time... I can see how they could appear so discombobulated. But how is this a good idea? Shouldn't a student testing for Black Belt in TKD, regardless of organization, perform at a MUCH higher level than what is shown in those vids? And shouldn't they be given the proper time to do so?


Now you're getting into what a first dan represents, which varries from organization to organization.  In Gracie jiu-jitsu, I've heard that it takes like ten years.  It doesn't that long in Judo (not sure what it is, but I know that it isn't ten; probably four or less), so should a judo black belt be considered inferior to a BJJ black belt?

With Kukki taekwondo, there isn't mountains of material to learn after first dan; they don't add any kind of mandatory hoshinsul or kobudo.  Essentially, you learn the ten geubs and then continue to refine what  you have learned, adding one form every dan grade, which I know is considerably less than some other arts that people have discussed.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> My feeling is just simply call every black belt holder master or grandmaster, *then it looses the false meaning the general American public learned to associate with the term*. That places everyone on the same level, removes delusion and we can see a person for what they actually do, not what they are called.
> 
> That fact is that when our Korean seniors came over here, they decided what they would do in terms of who is this or that. Example here in my own region there was total confusion in the 70's and 80's as to what was what. Some Korean master's followed together, some did not not, but all of them made up there own system of titles, etc. Do I blame them? NO. No one had yet figured it out! Do I think it is wrong if they still do it? No. I do think it is wrong for them to state it is correct because that is they way they have been doing it for so long.
> 
> But now we know, and what we know comes from the teachers of the Korean masters that came here to America, so I will not go by what this instructor says, or that instructor says, I will follow what the Kukkiwon says on the issue, because that comes from the most senior instructors of all. As I said, I like the Kukkiwon's view, and I think it takes away all the confusion that has been around for all these years.


Essentially, I agree with you. The part that I bolded is the only part I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't call it a false meaning. The term, 'master' is a part of the western lexicon, and anyone in the trades (a lot of people) know exactly what a master is and how it is different from a journeyman, which is _much_ closer to what a first through third dan is. 

Anyone who studies music is also familiar with the term, 'maestro,' and how it differs from being a graduate from college with a music degree, even from a prestidgious school like Julliard. Maestro, and its French equivallent maitre, and such have also been in conistent usage in western fencing.

The term 'master' is also used in other industries, including academia (schoolmaster, headmaster, masters degree, etc.) 

And the meanings that I listed above are not false. The term 'master' was part of the English vocabulary long before Asian martial arts were imported to the west, and its primary usage has really never been as the equal if 'mister.' Only the privileged were called 'master' in that way mainly because either they owned the land (and thus employed the household staff; nobody called the butler 'master') or were the children of the master and thus, slated to _become_ 'master' in their own right. In other words, if you had servants, you had people calling you and your kids master. If you were a farm hand, you didn't rate an honorific.

Outside of aristocracy and landed gentry, usage of 'master' has been one that denotes mastery of the craft, and the usage of that word in the trades goes back to the days of artisans. Like several hundred years. The guild system of Europe had a very well defined set of conditions that allowed one to be considered a 'master of the craft' and thus permitted by the guild to open up one's own shop and take on an apprentice. Or when one finally set up his own shop, they were called a master, depending upon where you were and the time period. Until you set up shop, however, you were a journeyman, regardless of how skilled you were.

So I do rather reject the idea that Americans 'don't know what a master is' (not something that you have said, but a notion that I have seen expressed quite a bit over the years) when in actuality, we do. You can blame those who brought the arts to the US for all of the confusion in regard to what constitutes 'master' in the martial arts, starting with whomever's silly idea it was to translate to master words that do not have that direct connotation. When I say 'those who brought the arts to the US,' I don't only mean Asians either; plenty of returning US servicemen brought the arts back to the US.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 20, 2012)

Firstly, my apologies to all for my flurry of responses; I was away for the weekend, so I am catching up.



Twin Fist said:


> it might be possible for you to be nice AND honest at the same time.
> 
> it isnt easy for me, because i am not a nice person. In all reality, i am pretty much an ***.
> 
> I have to TRY to be nice. Most of the time i dont bother, to tell the truth. No point since sooner or later I offend everyone....


You've never offended me, but I do think that in a typed medium, there is little excuse for consistently being antagonistic; given that you obviously know how to be polite, posting on a forum allows you the opportunity to wait on pushing the 'post reply' button and to tailor your comments.

Also, there is a difference between 'nice' and 'polite.' Should I choose, I can be polite and say the most cutting and hurtful things simultaneously. Should I choose, I can also be excessively polite to put social distance between myself and another, thus ostracizing them. Many of the things that you say could be couched in a more 'polite' tone and yet still carry the same impact. Perhaps even greater impact, given that people would be unable to dismiss your posts on account of impolite behavior. 

Being nice implies other things, though politeness generally accompanies niceness; it's not nice to be impolite.

Based only on our communication, I think that you are a decent guy who cares very much about his students and about the art. Qualities lacking in many teachers.

I'd say rather than being 'not nice,' you are blunt to the point of rudeness and at times, and tend to go over the top.



Twin Fist said:


> thread drift BIG TIME
> 
> do i need to start a new topic since every seems more interested in talkign about me than the subject at hand?


I think that the reason that things get focused on you is because of the way that you frequently post. You kind of go on the attack, and when you do that, people instinctively become defensive. Much of the negative things that you point out are things that you bring up repetatively, and often are things that are subjective in nature, such as first dan in less than three years. It's easy enough to simply say that you don't agree with it, why you don't agree with it, and move on without having to bring it up further.

I think that you have fairly high standard for yourself and your students. One of the byproducts of having high standards is that there is a median range and then there are low standards. It is true in every industry, every art, and every sport. You are in the unique position of being able to both encourage high standards in others and to model those high standards on a personal level. 

Also, while you may not have a school at present, you are _always_ a teacher. Let your posts reflect the high standards that you maintain as a master instructor. Anyone who reads your posts should know without you saying a word that you know what you're talking about. I can see it in your posts, even through the incendiary remarks that you make.

I don't really have anything more to say, and only am responding to what you posted publicly. I have always respected you, and my above comments are intended an honest and respectful response.

I wish you well in your continuing education and pursuit of a degree, and hope that you will be back on the mats teaching soon!


----------



## mastercole (Feb 20, 2012)

Taekkyon, from ancient times, still exist in Korea today. What was left of what could be considered formalized Taekkyon training for competitors at the Danho Festival. These skills were passed to a few men by and elderly man named SONG Duk Ki, who as a young man had natural Taekkyon skills, and, also trained in competitive Taekkyon so he could fair better at Taekkyon competitions, like the one at the Danho Festival, or, random challenges matches. SONG Duk Ki was a common man of basic means and enjoy this rough and tumble activity. His teacher was IM Ho and said to be the same.

These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki.  One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.

Each of these men who have learned SONG Duk Ki's Taekkyon has organized the skills into a specific curriculum so that it can be easily learned.  GM Lee now has over 500,000 Taekkyon students in Korea. The other men now have over several thousand students learning from them as well.  Taekkyon is now starting to slowly spread outside of Korea and is taking root in other regions of the world. 

Taekkyon is a pure Korean word, it has no traditional Chinese Character equivalent. It was a word used by the farmers, fishermen and workers in Northern Seoul, especially the Woodae and Araedae areas. It simply used to mean "kicking."  In the West, we can see young boys horseplay outside, wrestling around or punching at each other, even in more serious school yard fights, when none have likely had any formal training in either. Western males tend to favor the use of their hands and upper body in this way. Korean boys tend to favor their legs in such horse play as the Korean people have lived for millenia in the very mountainous region of Korea, they developed great agility and strength in use of their legs and have a great confidence in there use.

Western or Korean men will also tend to favor their innate ability in desperate, dangerous situations, applying there skills to self defense on the street, or even in war.

So modern Taekkyon contains the technique of ancient Taekkyon, passed down from SONG Duk Ki - and - from the natural innate tendencies of the Korean people, modern Taekkyon has organized those ancient skills in a highly organized curriculum.

Just a few months ago in November, UNESCO recognized Taekkyon as unique Korean martial art, the first and only martial art in the world to gain such recognition so far. 

"*Intangible Heritage of Humanity*
The formal title is UNESCO Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity. It was adopted during the 29th UNESCO General Assembly in 1997 for the protection of intangible cultural heritage amid the whirlwind of industrialization and globalization. Listings began in 2001. The UNESCO designation is based on the belief that oral and intangible properties of countries and peoples are valuable in their own right and as assets for all humanity. Once a property earns the designation, the country takes on the responsibility to preserve, develop, and pass it on. But nations also receive systematic support from UNESCO.
*Taekkyon and Tightrope Walking*
Taekkyon is a uniquely Korean martial art centered on the use of a fighters bare hands. But players usually use their feet to kick or tackle the opponent to win the match. The key skill is the effective use of the body so physical moves will flow naturally like water. A taekkyon match is all about attacks and there are few defense moves. But the players also take caution not to injure the other party. The sport was banned during Japans colonization and was nearly lost forever. Luckily, it was preserved by a handful of people until it was designated as an important intangible cultural property No. 76 by the Korean government in 1983. The next year, the Korea Taekkyon Federation was established and public promotional efforts began. Taekkyon centers have sprung up nationwide and the practice is fast spreading as a traditional martial arts or an everyday sport."

Read more here: http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/news/news_zoom_detail.htm?No=6509

I hope this helps people understand Taekkyon a little bit better

Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio USA
USA Taekkyon Chong Bon Bu Jeonsu Kwanjang (USA Taekkyon Headquarters Founding Director)


----------



## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

I think that taekkyon post was supposed to go in another thread.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Taekkyon, from ancient times, still exist in Korea today. What was left of what could be considered formalized Taekkyon training for competitors at the Danho Festival. These skills were passed to a few men by and elderly man named SONG Duk Ki, who as a young man had natural Taekkyon skills, and, also trained in competitive Taekkyon so he could fair better at Taekkyon competitions, like the one at the Danho Festival, or, random challenges matches. SONG Duk Ki was a common man of basic means and enjoy this rough and tumble activity. His teacher was IM Ho and said to be the same.
> 
> These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki.  One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.
> 
> ...



Wow, I have no idea how this post ended up here, it was meant for whole different thread. I assume it's OK to repost it where I intended it to be.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 21, 2012)

and i dont believe a word of this

i believe Al Cole believes it

but i think it is a gigantic fairy tale



mastercole said:


> Taekkyon, from ancient times, still exist in Korea today. What was left of what could be considered formalized Taekkyon training for competitors at the Danho Festival. These skills were passed to a few men by and elderly man named SONG Duk Ki, who as a young man had natural Taekkyon skills, and, also trained in competitive Taekkyon so he could fair better at Taekkyon competitions, like the one at the Danho Festival, or, random challenges matches. SONG Duk Ki was a common man of basic means and enjoy this rough and tumble activity. His teacher was IM Ho and said to be the same.
> 
> These men who learned Taekkyon, supported by the Korean Government Cultural Heritage Department and just recently, UNESCO, have been working hard to preserve the Taekkyon as it was taught to them by SONG Duk Ki.  One of these men, who is my teachers, GM LEE Yong Bok has made great strides in research into Taekkyon. He recorded and documented every skill and explanation that SONG Duk Ki gave about Taekkyon. GM Lee has also spent several decades researching all the available records of Korean history, and other Korean traditional practices to find any relations between these cultural assets, so more can be learned.
> 
> ...


----------



## mastercole (Feb 21, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> and i dont believe a word of this
> 
> i believe Al Cole believes it
> 
> but i think it is a gigantic fairy tale



This actually belongs in the other thread. 

I should believe it, what I wrote is from my 10 years of research into the subject. The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) agrees with the findings of my research.

UNESCO's decision

[h=3]Decision 6.COM 13.44[/h]The Committee (&#8230 decides that [this element] satisfies the criteria for inscription on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, as follows:

R.1: Taekkyeon is a traditional martial art that has been passed from generation to generation and promotes cooperation and solidarity among its practitioners;
R.2: Inscription of Taekkyeon on the Representative List could improve the visibility of similar martial arts around the world as a part of intangible cultural heritage;
R.3: A wide range of safeguarding measures includes raising awareness, research and financial support to the master and assistants to encourage transmission;
R.4: The nomination process has benefited from the participation of key institutions and practitioners and they have provided their free, prior and informed consent;
R.5: At the request of the groups and individuals concerned, Taekkyeon was designated in 1976 as Important Intangible Cultural Heritage by the Intangible Cultural Heritage Division of the Cultural Heritage Administration.
*Inscribes* *Taekkyeon, a traditional Korean martial art* on the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity.

Of course you are welcome to present proof that UNESCO and my research is incorrect. Good luck.


----------



## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> and i dont believe a word of this
> 
> i believe Al Cole believes it
> 
> but i think it is a gigantic fairy tale



Where, in your opinion, did the emphasis on kicks in korean martial arts come from? Thin air?


----------



## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I should believe it, what I wrote is from my 10 years of research into the subject.



I believe it too. But then again, I have been to Korea numerous times and have seen kids fighting outside throwing kicks, not to mention in bars where guys are throwing head high kicks at each other in the bar restroom, making me urinate all over the floor as I get bumped into. I have also been walking up and down those hills more times than I care to remember. In fact, there is so much walking by the people that Seoul feels like Manhattan, where everybody walks, except there are hills in Seoul, and Manhattan is relatively flat, especially when compared to Korea. Even the poombalki stepping motions make sense, if you think about the motion of walking or climbing up hills.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 21, 2012)

i dont believe it

this is based on 2 things

1)the koreans LOVE to make **** up when it comes to martial arts. National inferiority complex that comes from having been an enslaved people. Its proven. The made up history of TKD = case closed on this one

2) this whole thing goes back to ONE guy with NO proof at all in anyway to validate his claim to be the last in the line. And i dont buy it.

I dont think this is the fault of people like yourself. I think everyone was fooled by the lies of that one guy claiming to be the last one left....

so, i believe that modern taekkyon is a recreated art. I cant prove it is false. You cant prove it is true, since the guy is dead now.

so we are left to believe what we wish to believe, you are an .....avid fan of things korean. You have invested everything you are in korean stuff  

I am more interested in the truth. And this story has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

but, to be fair, i dont believe all of matsumi hassaki's claims either, but he at least has scrolls as evidence. Those can be dated and what not.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 21, 2012)

no, i believe there WAS a system of kick fighting in korean's past called Taekkyon. i do not believe that the modern thing called taekkyon is the same art.

i believe the old art died out when the japanese killed all the local fighters and masters. We KNOW that happened.

ONE guy claimed to have survived.

THAT i dont believe



puunui said:


> Where, in your opinion, did the emphasis on kicks in korean martial arts come from? Thin air?


----------



## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> no, i believe there WAS a system of kick fighting in korean's past called Taekkyon. i do not believe that the modern thing called taekkyon is the same art.
> 
> i believe the old art died out when the japanese killed all the local fighters and masters. We KNOW that happened.
> 
> ...



There is more than one taekkyon teacher. My hapkido teacher, GM Ji learned some of his kicking techniques from a taekkyon teacher who was a friend of his father. He had no other martial arts training other than from GM CHOI Yong Sul and the taekkyon teacher. He did not study taekwondo or any art that can be traced to the five kwan. He didn't call it taekkyon though, he called it tae ki li yon. I have the paper where he wrote out the name in hangul somewhere.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 21, 2012)

the modern taekkyon art all goes back to the ONE guy.

and i dont buy that story.

you can beleive whatever you want, i dont care, i just dont believe it.


----------



## mastercole (Feb 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> There is more than one taekkyon teacher. My hapkido teacher, GM Ji learned some of his kicking techniques from a taekkyon teacher who was a friend of his father. He had no other martial arts training other than from GM CHOI Yong Sul and the taekkyon teacher. He did not study taekwondo or any art that can be traced to the five kwan. He didn't call it taekkyon though, he called it tae ki li yon. I have the paper where he wrote out the name in hangul somewhere.



SONG Duk Ki was not the only one left, he was the only one alive who was still practicing. In he early 1950's he and other Taekkyon practitioners gave demonstrations, and a special one for the Korea President. That is how people started to know that Taekkyon had survived. We have records from other Taekkyon practitioners that name their teachers, and what SONG Duk Ki said matched that.  And he could not have read it anywhere because SONG Duk Ki could not read or write.  He also took people to the old Taekkyon training grounds to show where he trained to compete as a boy.

Regardless of the racist comments, all this was researched out for years, independently by UNESCO. Interesting note is that UNESCO rejected Kungfu's application for the same designation as UNESCO did not have enough information to meet their strict criteria.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Feb 22, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> I am sure they wouldn't have passed in our school either. Not a chance. And yes, our green belt class shows more precision, control and effort than what I saw in those vids.
> 
> I think that if, as Daniel Sullivan suggested, these are students who have had only one year of training and have had to learn all their patterns in that time... I can see how they could appear so discombobulated. But how is this a good idea? Shouldn't a student testing for Black Belt in TKD, regardless of organization, perform at a MUCH higher level than what is shown in those vids? And shouldn't they be given the proper time to do so?



I was reading through this thread with great interest when I saw the above post.  Haven't read any further yet but wanted to both comment and applaud this post.  This is truly a valid point.  All jabs aside, when an organization.....ANY organization seems to prefer quantity over quality, I see it as a problem.  I see proponents of the KKW often tout the large number of BB's within the organization, and that's all fine and well.  But it looks like the quality has suffered tremendously.  I say that from the amount of videos I've seen as well as first-hand experience with KKW BB's that have come to me for training.  Don't mistake this as a jab at the KKW or to those practitioners/instructors that REALLY strive for high levels of skill.  What I'm saying is that, it is the student that ends up suffering in the long run.  It's like this;


The KKW (or any organization) doesn't suffer, they get the money and another BB added to the roles.
The instructor doesn't suffer, he/she makes some money and can claim they have 'x' number of BB's under them.
It is the student that suffers because they were rushed through without being given the proper time to fully understand what was being presented to them.  All this crap about 1st Dan being a low level so the quality doesn't need to be all that high and we just hope they continue on to greater and higher levels is just that....pure crap.  The Dan level is NOT the Kyu/Gup/Kup level.  Those are the true student levels where they're learning to walk and chew gum at the same time.  The Dan level is a NEW level.  A much higher expectation is placed...or should be placed on that level.  Doesn't mean a 1st Dan can walk on water.  Doesn't mean they're a 'master'.  But they should be sharp, focused, disciplined and with power and precision in what they do.  They should be immediately known as a BB even if they're performing a technique/drill/form out of uniform with no belt to indicate what they're rank is.  And the only way to achieve that level of proficiency is to have the time to learn and develop it.  Rushing for stats only hurts the student.

Perhaps a bit of a rant on my part, but I feel pretty passionate about it.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2012)

and..........i still dont care

i dont believe it, and i wont believe it

and and take your race card and shove it back in the deck. I said nothing that was racist 

it is the truth, the koreans made up a lot of stories when it comes to the history of thier martial arts. 

joo bang lee and in huk suh are two great examples.Joo Bang Lee even admitted it was all lies.

"tkd is 200 years old" pffft 

whatever



mastercole said:


> SONG Duk Ki was not the only one left, he was the only one alive who was still practicing. In he early 1950's he and other Taekkyon practitioners gave demonstrations, and a special one for the Korea President. That is how people started to know that Taekkyon had survived. We have records from other Taekkyon practitioners that name their teachers, and what SONG Duk Ki said matched that.  And he could not have read it anywhere because SONG Duk Ki could not read or write.  He also took people to the old Taekkyon training grounds to show where he trained to compete as a boy.
> 
> Regardless of the racist comments, all this was researched out for years, independently by UNESCO. Interesting note is that UNESCO rejected Kungfu's application for the same designation as UNESCO did not have enough information to meet their strict criteria.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

Hey, back on track guys. Kukkiwon honorifics and grading, not taekkyeon historical debate. 

Master Cole said that he posted in the wrong thread. I'm sure that by now he has reposted in the appropriate thread. Please find it and take the taekkyeon debate there.

This is where we were before taekkyeon:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Master Cole said:
> 
> 
> > My feeling is just simply call every black belt holder master or grandmaster, *then it looses the false meaning the general American public learned to associate with the term*. That places everyone on the same level, removes delusion and we can see a person for what they actually do, not what they are called.
> ...


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2012)

Quoted for truth


a one year BB just makes the BB mean less.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I was reading through this thread with great interest when I saw the above post.  Haven't read any further yet but wanted to both comment and applaud this post.  This is truly a valid point.  All jabs aside, when an organization.....ANY organization seems to prefer quantity over quality, I see it as a problem.  I see proponents of the KKW often tout the large number of BB's within the organization, and that's all fine and well.  But it looks like the quality has suffered tremendously.  I say that from the amount of videos I've seen as well as first-hand experience with KKW BB's that have come to me for training.  Don't mistake this as a jab at the KKW or to those practitioners/instructors that REALLY strive for high levels of skill.  What I'm saying is that, it is the student that ends up suffering in the long run.  It's like this;
> 
> The KKW (or any organization) doesn't suffer, they get the money and another BB added to the roles.
> The instructor doesn't suffer, he/she makes some money and can claim they have 'x' number of BB's under them.
> ...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I was reading through this thread with great interest when I saw the above post. Haven't read any further yet but wanted to both comment and applaud this post. This is truly a valid point.


I ranther liked it myself.



Kong Soo Do said:


> All jabs aside, when an organization.....ANY organization seems to prefer quantity over quality, I see it as a problem. I see proponents of the KKW often tout the large number of BB's within the organization, and that's all fine and well.


Where do you see this? I see school owners and grandmasters do this, but so do school owners and masters in every other good sized organzation that has a black belt. Why single out the Kukkiwon?



Kong Soo Do said:


> But it looks like the quality has suffered tremendously. I say that from the amount of videos I've seen as well as first-hand experience with KKW BB's that have come to me for training. Don't mistake this as a jab at the KKW or to those practitioners/instructors that REALLY strive for high levels of skill. What I'm saying is that, it is the student that ends up suffering in the long run. It's like this;
> 
> The KKW (or any organization) doesn't suffer, they get the money and another BB added to the roles.
> The instructor doesn't suffer, he/she makes some money and can claim they have 'x' number of BB's under them.


The assertions that you make would have more impact if in Korea it ever had been longer than a year or so to first dan. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> It is the student that suffers because they were rushed through without being given the proper time to fully understand what was being presented to them. All this crap about 1st Dan being a low level so the quality doesn't need to be all that high and we just hope they continue on to greater and higher levels is just that....pure crap. The Dan level is NOT the Kyu/Gup/Kup level. Those are the true student levels where they're learning to walk and chew gum at the same time. The Dan level is a NEW level. A much higher expectation is placed...or should be placed on that level.



No offense, but where are you getting this? If you think about it logically, your entire statement falls apart. 

A first dan student is no less a student than he or she was prior to their test. They aren't a teacher, they aren't a school owner, and they aren't a coach. They're just a student. First dan is no more a NEW level than first geub. At my first geub test, I tested on all of the tenth through first geub material, one basic form plus eight Taegeuk pumse, broke two boards and had to spar. At my first dan test, I read an essay, tested on all of the tenth through first geub material, one basic form plus eight Taegeuk pumse, broke like ten or twelve boards between multiple breaks and single breaks with multiple boards, and had to spar. Then I leaned one new form. Doesn't sound all that 'new' to me. How am I no longer a student? How is first dan not a "true student level?"



Kong Soo Do said:


> Doesn't mean a 1st Dan can walk on water. Doesn't mean they're a 'master'. But they should be sharp, focused, disciplined and with power and precision in what they do. They should be immediately known as a BB even if they're performing a technique/drill/form out of uniform with no belt to indicate what they're rank is. And the only way to achieve that level of proficiency is to have the time to learn and develop it. Rushing for stats only hurts the student.


You are another who is hung up on the "black belt" and not on the time in training. These are one year students. Compare four year students to four year students and stop focusing on the rank if you really want a valid comparison. 

Comparing first dan ranks between organizations like comparing the title of 'minister' between Christian denomenations. In a Catholic church, a minister usually attached to a specialized function and is not a part of the ecclesiastical hierarchy. In other denomenations, a minister has duties more akin to a Catholic deacon, or in some cases, to a Catholic priest. It doesn't make the minister in one denomination superior or inferior to the minister in another denomination; same name applied to positions in differing organizations with differing levels of responsibility.

Likewise, a first dan does not convey the same level of experience in every organization. Given that is has apparently always been one year in Korea, and a first dan has always been a fairly low rank in Korea, why do you say that its being a low rank is somehow crap?



Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps a bit of a rant on my part, but I feel pretty passionate about it.


Why are you so passionate about a black piece of cloth?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> Quoted for truth


Truth? I'm sure it is how he truly feels, but it is not, in my opinion, all that factual or accurate.



Twin Fist said:


> a one year BB just makes the BB mean less.


Actually, you should be saying the inverse: a four year program to first dan makes it mean more, though in this case the 'more' is time in grade. The one year is what has been the norm set by the parent organization since long before you began training and before your seniors began training.

Why do you care so much about what the black piece of cloth means. Especially given that nobody seems to be able to agree upon its meaning in first place.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term.  Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.


That is actually western style thinking.  In Korean they don't distinguish the word in a masculine or feminine way.  So master is master be it a girl or boy.  If they were referring to mistress, that is a whole different word, with different meaning.  




> Given that they are trying to convey mister/miss/mrs., why not simply use those designations?


Korean is an "understood" language meaning that when you are conversing the subject of the conversation is known between the speakers do they do not tend to reiterate  mister/miss/mrs.  It is just known.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> still trying to make it personal aint ya?
> 
> *sigh*


Actually you sort of did when you used the term..."if my students looked like that..."  As such you have now set your students out there as a standard of measurement of what you would consider good TKD.  Which is fine.  However, if you are to say such things, then be prepared for people to show proof.  If you remember correctly there was an incident with a gentleman criticizing your students at one point because he felt they were lacking in skill.  You got very upset with that.  So why would you expect a different reaction from others when you criticize other students?

Also, what do we know about these students outside of what you see on this video?  Perhaps they are special needs students that have physical disabilities.  Perhaps they are students who are nervous as hell because they are in a foreign land testing for black belt.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> and i dont believe a word of this
> 
> i believe Al Cole believes it
> 
> but i think it is a gigantic fairy tale



What in particular do you not believe?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> That is actually western style thinking. In Korean they don't distinguish the word in a masculine or feminine way. So master is master be it a girl or boy. If they were referring to mistress, that is a whole different word, with different meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> Korean is an "understood" language meaning that when you are conversing the subject of the conversation is known between the speakers do they do not tend to reiterate mister/miss/mrs. It is just known.


Perhaps, but we're not talking about Korean here, but English.  Given that the 'master' for 1st through 5th dan is a policy in place for English speaking countries, and is apparently not in place in Korea, it is English language nuances and connotations and western cultural norms that are at issue.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why do you care so much about what the black piece of cloth means.  Especially given that nobody seems to be able to agree upon its meaning in first place.



the norm in my group is 4 years, so i guess our standards are higher than the standards in Korea.

Every 1 year BB makes your bb worth less daniel. Mine too. Every 5 year old bb makes your bb mean less, and mine too.

If you get into Harvard, that means something. It wouldnt mean as much if Forrest Gump got in too.....

If you meet a young lady, and you tell her "I am a BB in TKD" and she responds "so is my 5 year old" your achievement means less.Even if it is just in her eyes

one guy teaching cheese makes us all look cheesy by association, one ORG putting out cheese makes us all look cheesy

and spare me all the "it only means what you think it means anyway" psuedo wisdom. You know exactly what i mean. You may not agree, but i know you know what i am saying.


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Also, what do we know about these students outside of what you see on this video?  Perhaps they are special needs students that have physical disabilities.  Perhaps they are students who are nervous as hell because they are in a foreign land testing for black belt.



i know they are not ready for Black Belt Rank.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why do you care so much about what the black piece of cloth means.  Especially given that nobody seems to be able to agree upon its meaning in first place.



There's a lot of angst bound up in the idea.  Rank is a very personal thing.  It no doubt means more to some than others.  Those that are invested in their belt or rank are naturally bothered when they perceive less serious practitioners nonetheless holding the nominally 'same' rank.

Taekwondoin aren't necessarily savvy about the differences between organizations.  It can be a little disconcerting to learn that a BB can be very easy to achieve in some other dojang, in Korea or not with a period as little as one year and possibly with a very sparse amount of material to boot.  MT and other similar sites are full of negative comments about mcdojang and programs that pass their students through the ranks easily.  IMO, it shouldn't be hard to see the the correlation there.  If you don't like short, easy programs, you probably won't like 1 yr. BB programs either.

Additionally, in the US, martial arts teachers often promulgate ethos like hard work, discipline, goal-setting, etc.  Schools proudly proclaim 'We are a Black Belt School', indicating that the rank is something high, something desirable.  This are good things in my opinion, yet in conflict with the reality that some are promoting students with as little as one year of practice to the rank.  (yeah, I know we're back to 'it is a low rank'.)

And then there is that Korean/Asian thing, where wide-eyed westerners often buy into or are sold the myth that because something or someone came from Korea/Asia and therefore their level of skill must be great.  This is an irrational perspective yet it is undoubtedly true that some continue to feed it.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i know they are not ready for Black Belt Rank.


So is it your position that people with physical or mental disabilities who cannot move in the same manner as a non-physically/mentally challenged person, non deserving of a black belt?


----------



## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2012)

THREAD DRIFT

start a new topic if you want to discuss this


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 22, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> So is it your position that people with physical or mental disabilities who cannot move in the same manner as a non-physically/mentally challenged person, non deserving of a black belt?



Call me a jerk, but I'll admit to having mixed feelings about it.  I'm OK with some allowances granted for physical disability, but IMO there needs to be some objective measure of achievement, sustainable outside of "he is doing the best he can".  I regard it more like a college degree of sorts - there are clear requirements that must be met before the degree is conferred.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> the norm in my group is 4 years, so i guess our standards are higher than the standards in Korea.


No guess work involved; the standards at your school are higher. Time in grade standards at probaby every school in the US are higher, as the shortest programs that I have hears of are about sixteen months.



Twin Fist said:


> Every 1 year BB makes your bb worth less daniel. Mine too. Every 5 year old bb makes your bb mean less, and mine too.


My black belt is worth about eighteen dollars.



Twin Fist said:


> If you get into Harvard, that means something. It wouldnt mean as much if Forrest Gump got in too.....


I should say so! If Harvard is admitting ficitious people and putting them onto the student roles, I'd say that Harvard has a serious problem! 

All kidding aside, does an engineering degree from Phoenix University make the same degree from MIT mean less just because it is a degree in the same subject?

Of course not. It means that one guy has a degree from MIT. Nobody cares what its for. 

University degrees really are not a good comparison. There are way fewer universities than MA schools and everyone knows who the prestigious ones are. Nobody knows who the prestigious MA schools are. 



Twin Fist said:


> If you meet a young lady, and you tell her "I am a BB in TKD" and she responds "so is my 5 year old" your achievement means less. Even if it is just in her eyes


If I'm using it as a pick up line, I'd give her kudos for a good burn. 

If it comes up in conversation (not me trying to impress her) and she makes the statement in a condescending or insultory way, then she's simply rude. 

If she replies in earnest, I tell her that's great and that her little tyke must have worked very hard. 

By the way, that _has_ happened to me, and it ended up being a great conversation. 



Twin Fist said:


> one guy teaching cheese makes us all look cheesy by association, one ORG putting out cheese makes us all look cheesy


Absolutely, but this isn't about teaching cheese.



Twin Fist said:


> and spare me all the "it only means what you think it means anyway" psuedo wisdom. You know exactly what i mean. You may not agree, but i know you know what i am saying.


You know I wasn't going to go there.  And yes, I do know what your saying. 

I don't necessarily disagree with you so much as I think that you place greater emphasis on it than I do. 

As a general rule, I have found that in conversations with independent school owners such as yourself, there is greater tendencies to one extreme or the other; most will either completely marginalize the belt and use it only as a training tool while others exaggerate the belt's importance so as to set _their_ black belts apart from those offered by other schools.

School owners that I have talked to who are associated with an organization tend to view it within the standards of their region, nation, and organization, and in that order.

I think that as long as an instructor has a standard and is consistent in its application, then that is fine.

As for how people view my own belts and what their worth is, I don't think about. Outside of conversations on the internet, what I think my black belt is worth never comes up.

To be clear, I was genuinely curious as to your answer, though I've known you long enough that I could have figured it out.   I do appreciate the answer.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> no, i believe there WAS a system of kick fighting in korean's past called Taekkyon. i do not believe that the modern thing called taekkyon is the same art.
> 
> i believe the old art died out when the japanese killed all the local fighters and masters. We KNOW that happened.
> 
> ...


You have to keep in mind a couple of things.  First, Japanese did not kill all the fighters.  There were plenty of them that went underground and became freedom fighters during the occupation such as Lee, Hoe-young.  Regardless, there were very few, if any Taekkyon masters who had a dojang open to public.  Many just trained in it but worked in a different profession.  You also have to take into consideration that Japanese occupation extended to most of the major populated cities and small rural villages were not as affected as one might think.  So again, to have a person with martial art knowledge surviving the occupation is not that far fetched.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Call me a jerk, but I'll admit to having mixed feelings about it.  I'm OK with some allowances granted for physical disability, but IMO there needs to be some objective measure of achievement, sustainable outside of "he is doing the best he can".  I regard it more like a college degree of sorts - there are clear requirements that must be met before the degree is conferred.


You are not a jerk for having your standards. I was just curious.  But TF is right (wait did I just write that?), this should be its own thread.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> All kidding aside, does an engineering degree from Phoenix University make the same degree from MIT mean less just because it is a degree in the same subject?
> 
> Of course not. It means that one guy has a degree from MIT. Nobody cares what its for.
> 
> University degrees really are not a good comparison. There are way fewer universities than MA schools and everyone knows who the prestigious ones are. Nobody knows who the prestigious MA schools are.



I don't think the comparison has anything to do with prestige really.  It's more about functional differences, such as the difference between a 4 year bachelor of arts vs. a single freshman year.  Yet nominally, at the end, you both get the 'same' BB - savvy people know the programs are different, but most will have no idea.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Where do you see this? I see school owners and grandmasters do this, but so do school owners and masters in every other good sized organzation that has a black belt. Why single out the Kukkiwon?



I've seen it come up in numerous discussions over the last year.  Some, not all, that are proponents like to point out the number of KKW Dan holders.  That is fine.  But it is meaningless because it doesn't contain a qualifier.  This isn't picking on the KKW, it can apply to any organization that 'seems' to put quantity over quality.  I just don't see other TKD organizations speaking to specific membership numbers while at the same time the quality of those at a specific level is being challenged.



> The assertions that you make would have more impact if in Korea it ever had been longer than a year or so to first dan.



I would be curious as to what the standard was in previous years.



> No offense, but where are you getting this?



From many of the proponents that have stated such in various threads.  Yes, a 1st Dan is still a student...and so is a 5th Dan and so is a 10th Dan.  Just to different levels.  But there is...or rather there should be a difference in quality from one rank to the next.  On should be able to determine who is a low-level colored belt student, who is a BB of some level and indeed, who is a 'master' if that term is to be used.  Within the context of physical ability of course.  I would not suggest someone with an injury or of advanced age that may or may not be able to perform is less than a younger or more active counter-part.  Take what I'm saying within the context please.



> You are another who is hung up on the "black belt" and not on the time in training.



Not at all.  I haven't worn a BB in nearly seven years.  I'm 'hung up' on what one can do and/or teach.  I'd be just as happy if the Dan/Kyu/Gup system disappeared tomorrow.  Within the KKW we have a range of how long it takes to get to a specific level from 1 year to as high as 5 years.  Given the video and first-hand level of ability I've seen, one year doesn't seem to be adequate overall.  



> Why are you so passionate about a black piece of cloth?



You've misunderstood the intend of my comments.  I'm passionate about the student getting quality training rather than being rushed to a specific level for the sake of numerical supremacy within an art.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I don't think the comparison has anything to do with prestige really. It's more about functional differences, such as the difference between a 4 year bachelor of arts vs. a single freshman year. Yet nominally, at the end, you both get the 'same' BB - savvy people know the programs are different, but most will have no idea.


Man, those BJJ guys that take ten years must feel like they get the short end of the stick, having to wait almost a decade.

For the record, I find all of the university degree comparasons to be a poor fit for MA grades.  And the whole 'I worked X-years for mine an its not fair that he got his in only Y-years' mentality to be sorely misplaced unless you are talking about students who attend the same school.  In which case, one guy was either fast tracked or the other kept on longer appropriate.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Man, those BJJ guys that take ten years must feel like they get the short end of the stick, having to wait almost a decade.



Nah.  They think they graduated with a Ph.D.  



Daniel Sullivan said:


> For the record, I find all of the university degree comparasons to be a poor fit for MA grades.  And the whole 'I worked X-years for mine an its not fair that he got his in only Y-years' mentality to be sorely misplaced unless you are talking about students who attend the same school.  In which case, one guy was either fast tracked or the other kept on longer appropriate.



It is natural for people to be prideful of something they worked hard for.  It is not very spiritually advanced perhaps, but I don't think they are in the 'wrong'.  It's all opinion anyway.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've seen it come up in numerous discussions over the last year. Some, not all, that are proponents like to point out the number of KKW Dan holders. That is fine. But it is meaningless because it doesn't contain a qualifier. This isn't picking on the KKW, it can apply to any organization that 'seems' to put quantity over quality. I just don't see other TKD organizations speaking to specific membership numbers while at the same time the quality of those at a specific level is being challenged.


The only time that I recall seeing it come up is in discussions about the size of one organization as compared to another.  Since most organizations don't track geub/kyu grades, the quantity of dan holders is the only available statistic.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I would be curious as to what the standard was in previous years.


In Korea, so far as I know, it has always been a year.



Kong Soo Do said:


> From many of the proponents that have stated such in various threads. Yes, a 1st Dan is still a student...and so is a 5th Dan and so is a 10th Dan. Just to different levels. But there is...or rather there should be a difference in quality from one rank to the next. On should be able to determine who is a low-level colored belt student, who is a BB of some level and indeed, who is a 'master' if that term is to be used. Within the context of physical ability of course. I would not suggest someone with an injury or of advanced age that may or may not be able to perform is less than a younger or more active counter-part. Take what I'm saying within the context please.


Honestly, I wasn't really sure what your context was.  You hold up first dan (black belt isn't a rank) as being a new level in a way that the geub grades are not, and you imply that a first dan is at a stage beyond student.  While I am aware that we remain students for so long as we practice, the Kukkiwon does have instructor ranks (fourth and above) that are distinct from student grades. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Not at all. I haven't worn a BB in nearly seven years. I'm 'hung up' on what one can do and/or teach. I'd be just as happy if the Dan/Kyu/Gup system disappeared tomorrow.


If it did, I'd probably salute.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Within the KKW we have a range of how long it takes to get to a specific level from 1 year to as high as 5 years.


Well, the organization's standard is a year.  Those who lengthen the time are doing so on their own, and most likely are doing so because it is the norm for their area rather than the standard of the org.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Given the video and first-hand level of ability I've seen, one year doesn't seem to be adequate overall.


Adequate for what?



Kong Soo Do said:


> You've misunderstood the intend of my comments. I'm passionate about the student getting quality training rather than being rushed to a specific level for the sake of numerical supremacy within an art.


I don't think that it is a question of rushing people; the one year standard in Korea has been the standard from the outset.  Whether or not that should change is fodder for another thread.

Really, the point of my OP was the usage of the honorific 'master' for first through fifth dan; most westerners would consider it appropriate for fourth and fifth but not so much for third and not at all for first and second.  It was explained by Glenn and Master Cole that they are using it as a more formal version of 'mister' and that the policy is specifically for English speaking nations (i.e. westerners).  

Unfortunately that usage really is not in line with western cultural norms, as the word 'master' has a very different connoation, both now, and at the time when it was used as 'mister' (see my post a few pages back).


----------



## RottenManners (Jun 8, 2015)

Twin Fist said:


> the modern taekkyon art all goes back to the ONE guy.
> 
> and i dont buy that story.
> 
> you can beleive whatever you want, i dont care, i just dont believe it.


 
The modern Taekkyon does not go back to one man. It goes back to a few Taekkyon masters & their students who were all alive during the Japanese occupation. It is just one man, Sond Duk Ki who was recognised as the best of them. This is documented.

They all trained in secret during the Japanese occupation.


----------



## Drakanyst (Jun 9, 2015)

wa-ho! hat's off to miguksaram . from what i've seen of your posts, they're pretty on point.

i know i'm jumping onto a really old thread. anyways,

what master cole says regarding kukkiwon testings is mostly accurate! currently, the 1st poom- 4th poom/dan testing level has warm ups, two poomsae and one kyorugi match.

why does that sound so funny? well, let's take a look at the current structure of teaching and belt systems in korea.
first- the average "gym"  as we know it teaches people up to high school age at most.
second- poom has four levels! these levels- 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th roll over to dan grade once high school age is reached.
third- teaching taekwondo to these age groups in korea is an all inclusive program! jump rope, misc self defense, dodgeball, any combination will be added to the program. the general school in america or europe will teach taekwondo with hints of other workouts.

that being said, sure- it doesn't look like what a lot of foreigners consider to be black belt. of course not. these kids are taught to work out well, have fun, and make sure they can get their rank requirement and self defense. the hard training starts from middle school on up, and they don't receive black belts until they are ~16 years of age.

try not to judge too hard, there is a lot of societal and cultural differences at work.




"ATC:​
Yes I would have to agree with you. I am KKW certified 3rd Dan and those were some pretty pathetic forms. Very week and sloppy. I am very surprised as we here in the states always hear how everything is better in Korea.

With that said we have had a few students that moved from Korea that joined our dojang and I was surprised at their level of skill. Surprised or should I say disappointed. They did not live up to my expectation knowing that they were from Korea and did not impress at all."

ATC, please try to consider that korean person=/=master. also, in korea if a student is in a training intensive program, they are generally asked to pick a focus. poomsae, kyorugi, or demonstration. that being said, they might have really crappy forms but do other things well! learning about students is fun.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 9, 2015)

Drakanyst said:


> second- poom has four levels! these levels- 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th roll over to dan grade once high school age is reached.
> 
> that being said, sure- it doesn't look like what a lot of foreigners consider to be black belt. of course not. these kids are taught to work out well, have fun, and make sure they can get their rank requirement and self defense. the hard training starts from middle school on up, and they don't receive black belts until they are ~16 years of age.



These two statements pretty much sum up the problem with the KKW Poom/Dan system.
If you want to have a baby black belt system with a considerably lower standard of performance and call it a poom rank, I don't think many would have any serious objection. It's a kiddy rank.
It's the automatic roll over to Dan rank that leads to objections.
Require poom holders to pass the adult test, rather than just swapping belts, and many (most?) objections would be gone.


----------



## Gnarlie (Jun 9, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> These two statements pretty much sum up the problem with the KKW Poom/Dan system.
> If you want to have a baby black belt system with a considerably lower standard of performance and call it a poom rank, I don't think many would have any serious objection. It's a kiddy rank.
> It's the automatic roll over to Dan rank that leads to objections.
> Require poom holders to pass the adult test, rather than just swapping belts, and many (most?) objections would be gone.


They do have to pass the adult test for their next dan grade, though.


----------



## Drakanyst (Jun 10, 2015)

Gnarlie is correct. to my experience the higher rank dan tests require a lot more. serious taekwondo practitioners at high school and college level face a lot more challenges in their school or program before they even make it to a test. my current university for example, puts us through three hour cardio training sessions with no stop time.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> They do have to pass the adult test for their next dan grade, though.


 
Sure. If they promote again. As I said, it's the auto-rollover to Dan rank that bothers people.


----------

