# Asking to Test



## MBuzzy (Jul 8, 2008)

How do you feel about your students asking to test?

Do you think that this is bad form?  Do you reserve the right to dictate who tests and who does not or do you allow anyone to test if they feel that they are ready?  

How about skipping ranks?


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## terryl965 (Jul 8, 2008)

We never skip rank and all my students know better than to ask to test. I will inform them when it is time.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 8, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> We never skip rank and all my students know better than to ask to test. I will inform them when it is time.


 
That is exactly how I was trained and how I feel, but I have heard of schools who don't mind and I personally heard someone ask to test recently...and not just to test, but to skip a rank.  I was floored - I was always taught that it is disrespectful to ask, let alone ask to skip.  Just wondering how widespread that is.


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## terryl965 (Jul 8, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> That is exactly how I was trained and how I feel, but I have heard of schools who don't mind and I personally heard someone ask to test recently...and not just to test, but to skip a rank. I was floored - I was always taught that it is disrespectful to ask, let alone ask to skip. Just wondering how widespread that is.


 
I know alot of schools allow such a thing but not me I am a veteran of not asking but instead say what do* I need to work on.*


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 8, 2008)

We're the same, you do not ask for rank. But if I have a student ask, I might just take him/her up on it and it I can guarantee that if they get rank, they will have earned it, cause it will be that much tougher than the norm. Skipping ranks is not the norm, but I believe it can be done. Usually it is that I have not held a test in a timely manner and have instead moved the individual ahead to keep them progressing. It is not their fault if they are ready for rank and I am not holding a test. I am not going to stop making sure that they are getting value for thier dollar. Now, skipping rank is more common at the beginning ranks, it should not and does not normally happen beyond the third level.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 8, 2008)

14 Kempo said:


> We're the same, you do not ask for rank. But if I have a student ask, I might just take him/her up on it and it I can guarantee that if they get rank, they will have earned it, cause it will be that much tougher than the norm. Skipping ranks is not the norm, but I believe it can be done. Usually it is that I have not held a test in a timely manner and have instead moved the individual ahead to keep them progressing. It is not their fault if they are ready for rank and I am not holding a test. I am not going to stop making sure that they are getting value for thier dollar. Now, skipping rank is more common at the beginning ranks, it should not and does not normally happen beyond the third level.


 
That's an interesting dimension that you addressed....

What should you do if you are asked?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

I was brought up in the area when one never asked to test. If someone did they usually regretted it by the time the test was over.
Now I have forgot how long a student was in rank before and been reminded by one of my sons that so and so had been at the same rank for a long period of time. That made me watch the person with a critical eye the next few lessons. I might after watching them for a day or so test them or I might give them the next rank having in  my mind tested them without them feeling the pressure of a test, but they would have had to show me that they not only knew the material but where able to pass it on.


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## morph4me (Jul 8, 2008)

If I'm asked, I will discuss it with the student and make my decision based on that discussion. I did have one student ask ans was very insistent. He just couldn't accept that he wasn't ready, so I tested him and he failed. He stuck around long enough to get the rank he was trying for and left.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't see the big deal about asking to test - isn't martial arts about confidence and the chance to prove to yourself that you have achieved something?

I put out a test list a couple of weeks before the test, and if a student isn't on it and they feel they should be, they can ask me about it.  If I feel they flat out are not ready at all, I just tell them.  If they can make a case that thye have all the requirements down pat and are ready to go, occassionally I will let them go ahead and test.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 8, 2008)

rick_tsdmdk said:


> I don't see the big deal about asking to test - isn't martial arts about confidence and the chance to prove to yourself that you have achieved something?
> 
> I put out a test list a couple of weeks before the test, and if a student isn't on it and they feel they should be, they can ask me about it. If I feel they flat out are not ready at all, I just tell them. If they can make a case that thye have all the requirements down pat and are ready to go, occassionally I will let them go ahead and test.


 
So will their test be any different from the other students?  Will you look at them differently since they "self selected?"


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 8, 2008)

I do know a couple of instructors that put a sing up sheet out for those that feel they want to test.  Of course most of them pass and the instructor collects the test fee but still the idea is one that has some merit


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## Makalakumu (Jul 8, 2008)

I like it when a student asks to test.  This gives me an idea on how well they are self evaluating their skills.  That skill is VERY important after chodan, so the more you can help a student develop that, the better.

When a student asks me to test, I ask them how they know they are ready.  If they can demonstrate why and say the right things, then I may consider it.

As for skipping ranks...under my teacher, I skipped ranks twice during testing cycles.  This was because I had so much previous training.  I already knew a lot of the material and forms from shotokan and I worked hard on them.  In a 10 gup system this is more possible.  In my dojang, we only have belts, no stripes.  With four belts, it makes it really hard to skip ranks.  Probably impossible, unless you had training similiar to what I offer.


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## SamT (Jul 8, 2008)

Given how small our dojang is (four students is our current Adult class, with two absent right now), the basic policy is "You'll test when I decide that you're ready." I'm still new to the martial arts, and trust my instructor to decide if I'm ready or not. The only time I've asked was a week after he mentioned me testing soon, and all I did was ask if he had set up a time for it yet. Master Schmitt (ATKI founder) will actually chew out instructors if they throw their students into tests too soon.


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> How do you feel about your students asking to test?
> 
> Do you think that this is bad form?  Do you reserve the right to dictate who tests and who does not or do you allow anyone to test if they feel that they are ready?



I've always tested when my instructor told me to, and I do the same thing with my students.  That's the way I've always done it.  The few students who have asked me to test (or have asked if they are testing with the rest of the class) were, invariably, not ready - and were also, invariably, much more confident of their skills than they should have been.

When I clear a student to test, is it because s/he is able to pass the test - but there are no guarantees.  I've had students fail tests because they didn't try - they showed up, walked through their requirements, and didn't understand why they failed.  Interestingly, those are the type of student most likely to ask to test - actually, they're the ones most likely to tell me when they're ready to test - and as I said, they're the most likely to be unready.



MBuzzy said:


> How about skipping ranks?



It can happen.  It's pretty rare - if it happened regularly, then it would mean that there was something wrong with the curriculum, and either a belt rank needed to be removed, or more things added.



terryl965 said:


> I know alot of schools allow such a thing but not me I am a veteran of not asking but instead say what do* I need to work on.*



That's the way I do it too.


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## YoungMan (Jul 8, 2008)

Testing is completely at the instructor's discretion. It is not up to the student to decide if he or she is ready, it is my decision. If a student asks to test, or says they think they're ready, I would politely but firmly tell them that is my decision to make.
As for skipping ranks, that is up to judges who officiate at testings. I personally am not a fan of it as it encourages big egos and arrogance. A friend of mine did that and he never missed a chance to remind us that he did.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 8, 2008)

Kacey said:


> When I clear a student to test, is it because s/he is able to pass the test - but there are no guarantees. I've had students fail tests because they didn't try - they showed up, walked through their requirements, and didn't understand why they failed. Interestingly, those are the type of student most likely to ask to test - actually, they're the ones most likely to tell me when they're ready to test - and as I said, they're the most likely to be unready.


 
I have known people who firmly believe that a test is decided by the first Choonbee.  You can tell from that first movement whether the student is there, focused, ready, confident and mentally prepared.  Spend enough time testing people and a single choonbee can probably tell you on test day if they know all of their requirements or not.


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I have known people who firmly believe that a test is decided by the first Choonbee.  You can tell from that first movement whether the student is there, focused, ready, confident and mentally prepared.  Spend enough time testing people and a single choonbee can probably tell you on test day if they know all of their requirements or not.



Oh yes... I know people who can do that too, who have determined by the end of Chon-Ji (the first pattern, learned by white belts), at the latest, if students are going to pass or not, based on how they perform that pattern and how their concentration and mindset manifest in that performance.


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## JoelD (Jul 8, 2008)

It's not a written rule, but everyone in our dojang knows that asking "When can i test" is a no-no. Being in the same org. as mBuzzy i would have also been floored had i heard someone in my dojang have the audacity to ask that question. It's just disrespectful. I feel that my Sa Bom is the authority on when it's time to test. When i attain her rank and own my own studio (if ever) then i will decide testing times in my dojang. i feel the dojang is NOT a democratic environment... Instructor say, students do. Now, i know that sounds a bit 'Karate Kid' and all, but I am talking about reasonable instruction, not instilling violent behaviour or the like.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 8, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> So will their test be any different from the other students? Will you look at them differently since they "self selected?"


 
They would test the same as everyone else.  If they do well, they pass, if not they flunk and learn a valuable lesson too.

I am not often wrong, but if someone is borderline ready, and wants to find out how close they are, why not let them?  Maybe they know more than I realize - with 100 students, I sometimes can't remember everyone's exact progress.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 8, 2008)

Another way to think about this is to think about the purpose of the test.  Is the student trying to show you want they know or is the student going to learn something from the test?

Teachers call this assessment of learning and assessment as learning.  When I give a test, it is the former because I assess a students learning every single time they show up to class.

I've have jujutsu tests where the slightest technical mistake would have landed one a failure.  I see value in this approach and I see where a teacher would be the best judge to see if a student is ready.

For assessment as learning, though, one goal may be to teach the student where they are in regards to their skill level.  If a student asks to test and the teacher thinks it is a good idea, that is a great measure of the students ability to assess oneself.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 9, 2008)

We do gup testing each 3 months, same months every year, only the day changes.
2 or 3 weeks before we fill test sheets for the students who meet the requierements for the belt they are testing to. Any student is expected to know everything for the rank, plus a little more.

If any instructor feels a student isn't ready, we talk to him/her first (to the parents if younger than 18). We try to explain the situation, but the student can choose take the test anyway. Then is up to him/her. We don't deny anyone the right to take test even if we know failure is imminent.

We don't sell ranks and the students and parents are well aware of this. Every belt is hard-earned and we have no obligation of awarding any ranks just because we are getting paid.
As a matter of fact, we sometimes lower the rank of a student who isn't meeting the requirements for that rank anymore, or is lazy or been absent a lot.

Very few students can skip gup ranks, only when the student is outstanding and has greater skills than average. Of course, he needs to score excelent.

Doing test every 3 months nobody asks to being tested.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 9, 2008)

Perfect example here....

So under the "you're told when to test" scenario.  We had a child who is obviously not ready for testing.  But telling him absolutely crushed him.  I can understand, but even he admitted that he didn't know the material.  Now, this is a young kid, so the "suck it up and deal" thing doesn't work as well.

This is a big potential pitfall of not allowing people to test when they feel they are ready, but begs the question....which is worse, being told by your instructor that you're not ready or taking the test and failing?  Of course, this much different for adults, who are theoretically mature enough to handle it.


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## YoungMan (Jul 9, 2008)

Think of testing as kind of like getting a raise at work. You don't get a raise by asking or demanding one, you get a raise when your actions and work performance demonstrate you deserve one. If you have to ask for one, you probably don't deserve it.
Testing is similar. Your actions in class and technique will show me when you deserve to test. Until then, don't worry about it. That's my job.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 9, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Think of testing as kind of like getting a raise at work. You don't get a raise by asking or demanding one, you get a raise when your actions and work performance demonstrate you deserve one. If you have to ask for one, you probably don't deserve it.
> Testing is similar. Your actions in class and technique will show me when you deserve to test. Until then, don't worry about it. That's my job.


 
I dunno, asking for a raise at work, just like asking to test is a matter of situation and location.  There are defiantely jobs in which if you want a raise, you must ask.  In fact, asking is considered initiative in some places.  Not just for raises, but positions, jobs, etc.  

So in testing, asking to test could also be considered intiative and drive.  By asking, I am stating my drive to progress and my confidence in the material - or - I am disrespecting the instructor by assuming that I know better when I am ready to test than he.  So it is a matter of perspective.  Some organizations/instructors have a problem with it, some don't.  So I'm trying to get down to the reasons behind it and why they think as they do.

Some excellent and insightful responses!


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## terryl965 (Jul 9, 2008)

All I know is this if youask me then you do not test plain and simple, this is my school I handle all the classes and keep a progrees report on all current students, I am sure I know more than they think they know. Sorry just the way I feel.


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## JoelD (Jul 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> All I know is this if youask me then you do not test plain and simple, this is my school I handle all the classes and keep a progrees report on all current students, I am sure I know more than they think they know. Sorry just the way I feel.


 
Short, and to the point, Sir. I have to say i completely agree with you. It is my feeling that the instructor should know the progress of his/her students and make the judgement whether or not to test. Someone above mentioned having alot of students and that it was impossible to know the status of all of them.  That is certainly understandable, after all we are all only human.  This is where I think that good assistant instructors or teaching seniors come in. They can assist in making those decisions with the head instructor as perhaps they spend time with students that the head instructors does not see as often and vice versa.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> All I know is this if youask me then you do not test plain and simple, this is my school I handle all the classes and keep a progrees report on all current students, I am sure I know more than they think they know. Sorry just the way I feel.


 
Incidentally, I fully agree with you, although I wonder how this got to be a point of etiquette.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 9, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I dunno, asking for a raise at work, just like asking to test is a matter of situation and location. There are defiantely jobs in which if you want a raise, you must ask. In fact, asking is considered initiative in some places. Not just for raises, but positions, jobs, etc.
> 
> So in testing, asking to test could also be considered intiative and drive. By asking, I am stating my drive to progress and my confidence in the material - or - I am disrespecting the instructor by assuming that I know better when I am ready to test than he. So it is a matter of perspective. Some organizations/instructors have a problem with it, some don't. So I'm trying to get down to the reasons behind it and why they think as they do.
> 
> Some excellent and insightful responses!


 
Most people have the "I am the teacher and I know best and I'll tell you what to do so shut up" attitude because they were taught that way.  And because they need to do that in order to fulfill their own God-complex, to be in total control.  When you aren't secure, and self-confident, you act this way to keep control.

Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous.  What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds?  What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms?  This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.


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## jkembry (Jul 9, 2008)

Being new...and not knowing that there was a protocol, I have always trusted my Sensei to let me know when I would be ready for testing.  At my dojo...a very small one...the tests are scheduled on an as needed basis and we are usually informed about a month ahead.  At that point we are told where we need to fine tune and practice.

I guess I had just assumed Sensei would know when and let us know.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 9, 2008)

rick_tsdmdk said:


> Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous. What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds? What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms? This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.


 
There are definately people out there who do this though.  (which brings up a new thread idea..)

There are plenty of factors that go into a test.  Personally, if they couldn't complete 2 or 3 forms, that would be grounds for a retest at minimum, if not a failure.  The comment is more directed at attitude and whether the student is confident and ready or not.  I personally would never do this, but I know people who have had and who have given tests, based solely on the execution of choon bee.  The main idea is that it is all about attitude.  The test was done not on testing day, but on the months of training leading up to testing day.

In terms of the student asking or not...what about the student who isn't ready a week prior to the test, and asks to test on the assumption that they will practice their butt off for the following week and be ready for the test.  It is possible that some students need this kind of motivation to "cram" and be ready.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 9, 2008)

rick_tsdmdk said:


> Most people have the "I am the teacher and I know best and I'll tell you what to do so shut up" attitude because they were taught that way. And because they need to do that in order to fulfill their own God-complex, to be in total control. When you aren't secure, and self-confident, you act this way to keep control.


 
Remember TSD is very disciplined Martial Art, not commercial karate.
Of course we are the Sa Bom Nim and we know better. I don't think I have trained TSD for 16 years to let any begginer tell me what to do. 
In my dojang things are the way I say, period. It's not a democracy.
It's martial Art, not spinning or Tae Bo.

We are open minded, we listen and take into consideration students opinions. Someone may have a valid point, but we have rules and schedules. 
When I deny something to a student or parent, of course I won't say "because I say so". I explain the situation and make them understand.

If a student asked me to take a test, even if he is ready, I'd say "please wait for the upcoming scheduled test, 3 months are nothing"



> Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous. What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds? What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms? This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.


 
I agree with that. 
When I test my students, I watch and examine every movement, every hyung from the beggining to the end. When the are tired, I push them up a little. I congratulate them when they're going good.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 9, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Remember TSD is very disciplined Martial Art, not commercial karate.
> Of course we are the Sa Bom Nim and we know better. I don't think I have trained TSD for 16 years to let any begginer tell me what to do.
> In my dojang things are the way I say, period. It's not a democracy.
> It's martial Art, not spinning or Tae Bo.
> ...


 
Why would you punish a student for asking about a test?

And I don't believe I ever said I would have a beginner tell me what to do, lol

All I said was, let them ask - if they can convince me they are ready and able, I am willing to listen.  That doesn't mean I will change my mind, it is just a chance for them to make their case.

There is a fine line between discipline and close-minded totalitarianism.  I don't believe in a Democracy in the studio either, but I also know that for a student to have a chance to grow and develop, you as a teacher had better listen to them.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 11, 2008)

rick_tsdmdk said:


> Why would you punish a student for asking about a test?
> 
> And I don't believe I ever said I would have a beginner tell me what to do, lol
> 
> ...


 
All You said is exactly the same as I said, only different words.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 12, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> All You said is exactly the same as I said, only different words.


 
lol, if you say so


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## LanJie (Jul 12, 2008)

My instructors always told me when it was time to test.
Once my younger Kung Fu brother took two tests a once because he was sick for the first one.


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## claireg31 (Jul 13, 2008)

i have never asked and never will ask to test.

i gained my 1st dan in march this year and it has taken me just shy of 4 years to get there, i have in that 4 years declined to test as i felt i wasn't up to scratch with hyungs, either hand or weapon. i have always trusted Sa Bum Nim's instruction and always will, he has been practising Tang Soo Do for nearly 20 years and is now a master, why would i question his judgement.

Having said that, we have parents that constantly ask why there children weren't allowed to grade with the rest of the class, we don't have a different belt system with the children and the adults, while it took me three months to go from orange tag to green belt (6th - 5th gup, i think, its Sunday morning, my brain is not movng that fast this morning!!) its taken some of the children 9months to a year to do this, i think its to do with how you pick up, some of the children have very short attention spans and you can't get them to train as much at home as what i do!

I am of the school that you're instructor, where it be drinving instructor, swimming coach, Sa Bum Nim will make that decision for you when the time is right.

claire


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## Lynne (Jul 13, 2008)

Our school posts the names of those testing, spotlighting (monthly tests of current class material for orange belts through green belts) and mid-terms (every other month tests of current material for red belts) and when.

I have seen names scratched off when people aren't ready.  Testing is usually scheduled several months ahead.  I rather like that - it gives me a goal and I make sure I'm preparing/practicing.

I can't imagine asking to test or skip a rank.  It might be a good way to lose rank, too  

I wonder if parents ever ask for their kids to be tested early, lol.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 13, 2008)

What I think is humorous is the general feeling that while it is bad to ask to test because the instructor knows best - it is somehow OK to DECLINE to test.  So I guess the instructor doesn't know so much after all.

I don't see how you can have it both ways.


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## SamT (Jul 13, 2008)

rick_tsdmdk said:


> Most people have the "I am the teacher and I know best and I'll tell you what to do so shut up" attitude because they were taught that way.  And because they need to do that in order to fulfill their own God-complex, to be in total control.  When you aren't secure, and self-confident, you act this way to keep control.
> 
> Thinking that you can fail or pass a student based on the first Choon Bee they get into is ridiculous.  What if the student is nervous and settles in after a few seconds?  What if the student is blustery and over-confident and isn't able to complete 2 or 3 forms?  This is like saying I know whether a student will score high on the ACT test based on the first answer.


That depends on how they judge the students actions. If they're obviously nervous, then it won't take as long. If it's a weak, "I don't really care" choon be, a student probably doesn't have much dedication. That first Choon Be should be taken into consideration when judging whether or not a student passes.

Regarding the "You'll test when I say so," if you can't trust your instructor to pay attention to your progress, you shouldn't be training under them. If you think you can decide every time when you're ready to test, you shouldn't be training.

EDIT: If a student isn't psychologically ready, they probably won't do as well. I see nothing wrong with a student asking an instructor how their progress is going, and hoping for a test date, but asking straight up to test, is nothing short of rude and disrespectful.

Claireg, what organization are you under?


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 13, 2008)

I guess I didn't realize how far martial arts was behind the real world in coaching techniques and teaching success.  No wonder so few make it to black belt level, and no wonder so few black belts continue training past 1st dan, and no wonder MMA is gaining on traditional martial arts in popularity.


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## Brad Dunne (Jul 13, 2008)

Testing is and should be nothing more than a formality to watch the student under pressure. As the instructor, you know when a student is ready for testing because you watch and teach them everyday their present for training. They may think themselves ready, because they memorized the form or the self defense techniques or whatever else is required, but what they can't see or know is the way they perform these requirements. They may know the material, but they look like crap attempting to do them. Thusly, IMO, they are not ready to test and an attitude interface should be on the agenda. 

As for a student asking to test, when did you or anyone you know ask a teacher or professor in school, "Hey, I want to test in math next week". You/we tested at the given intervals assigned by the school. The same should hold true in the MA's, for it is also a learning process that has basic set time frames for people to learn. If you have a quick study or someone who has prior training, then test them, if you wish, on an accelerated rate, seperate from the normal class participants. 

As for a student declining to test when the instructor says he/she is ready, there may be valid cause for the refusal, such as monitary constrants, schedule conflict (school or family), health factor that the instructor dosen't know (hospital or dental) etc. The student should give the instructor the reason for not wanting to test, but that's not always the case.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 13, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> As for a student asking to test, when did you or anyone you know ask a teacher or professor in school, "Hey, I want to test in math next week". You/we tested at the given intervals assigned by the school. The same should hold true in the MA's, for it is also a learning process that has basic set time frames for people to learn. If you have a quick study or someone who has prior training, then test them, if you wish, on an accelerated rate, seperate from the normal class participants.


 
I do see a difference between tests in school and tests in MA.  In school, you're on a schedule.  You have from the day that the class starts to the day that class ends and at the end of that time period, the teacher must rate your understanding of the material.  therefore, they must give tests, either at certain intervals or randomly, but this is how they evaluate.  Though it can be argued that homework is their sign of how much you've learned, it is too uncontrolled.  You can't tell if the student is cheating, getting too much help, etc.  That's why you give tests, to see the student under pressure and only with the tools that you want them to have.  

In MA, there is no time limit, which is the major difference.  Much of the rest is the same, they determine if you go on or stay back, they give you a pass/fail, may even rate your progess.  It is true that there are set time frames, but if you pass up a test...no big deal.  It is a major event if a student in school has to re-take a class.  

Also, many people feel that your rank is not a right, but a privlege.


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## YoungMan (Jul 14, 2008)

I suspect that the idea of asking to test being prohibited derives from two sources:

The Confucian idea of treating and respecting your Instructor as you would your parent, following what they say, and letting them make the decisions. Foreign concept for many Americans, I know, but prevalent in traditional martial arts

The military background of the Korean arts, especially Taekwondo, where you do not question the Instructor, and their word is law. I would imagine that in the military, you absolutely do not ask to promote. That honor is given purely at the discretion of the CO.

I agree with the idea that traditional martial arts are not commercialized karate. You don't ask to test and class is not a democracy.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 14, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> How do you feel about your students asking to test?
> 
> Do you think that this is bad form? Do you reserve the right to dictate who tests and who does not or do you allow anyone to test if they feel that they are ready?
> 
> How about skipping ranks?


 
It depends on the instructor. 

My students don't have to ask. I consider it my responsibility that they understand where they are in reference to our syllabus and curriculum. 

However, I've been in schools where the instructor was not as disciplined and drug his feet on just about everything, including testing so that students had to ask. 

In short, I don't think there's a blanket answer for this question. The answer depends on the circumstances present in a particular school. Sometimes it would be "bad form" sometimes it would not.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 14, 2008)

Yeah, I never ask to test, although we have a fairly set testing schedule. One more recert for me in September, and then next March I should be able to test for sam dan. 

...but of course, my sa bom nim always told me, when I asked how long it was before black belts could test for a higher rank, that it was "Whenever Master Kim says you can." 

I personally don't think it's any student's right to ask to test; the instructor knows when his student is ready, and if there's a schedule for testing, it's the instructor's job to get the student ready.


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## SamT (Jul 14, 2008)

rick_tsdmdk said:


> I guess I didn't realize how far martial arts was behind the real world in coaching techniques and teaching success.  No wonder so few make it to black belt level, and no wonder so few black belts continue training past 1st dan, and no wonder MMA is gaining on traditional martial arts in popularity.



There are plenty of belt factories out there that will give people black belts in 2-3 years. Most of the people I see go through those end up dropping out after 1st Dan, *because* they don't see the point in ranking anymore. The fastest we've ever had a student reach 1st dan was in six 1/2 years, training five nights a week, two hours a night. The best martial artists I've seen are those that make martial arts a part of their lives, not just something they do in their spare time.

Honestly, I can't comment on MMA, as I know very little about it. From the little I've seen, it seems to be more sport oriented, and less hierarchical. My instructor's son teaches MMA, I'll have to ask him what he thinks about it as you said it.

In the end, I respect and respectfully disagree with your opinion on the subject. Though I do thank you for sharing it, it's always good to see the other side of the fence every once in awhile.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 16, 2008)

I see we all have different opinions about this subject of asking to be tested. It is normal because we are from different schools. some people think it is bad, some think is good.

In my school, students almost never ask to test because scheduled tests themselves are difficult, so is rare a student can pass the scheduled test and have more knowledge to ask for another. Only brilliant students can. Sometimes overconfident students also ask, but in the first 15 min of the test they realize we have scheduled tests for a reason.

Speaking of black belts, we don't see the rank as the only reference of one's knowledge. I mean, we don't train to achieve a Dan Rank, we go beyond that.
As a matter of fact, in my school is common to see someone to keep the same dan for a while, because we are not in a hurry to become high ranked black belts.

MMA are gaining popularity with people because of TV. People are tired of Boxing and watching the same over and over. 
It has nothing to do with traditional Martial Arts's Dan rankings or tests. If people see something which appears easier and more effective, they will buy it, regardless of real life efectiveness.

They are switching to MMA just because it is fashion. MMA fighters are "cool", like artists. No TV = No MMA popularity.
Martial arts have thrived for centuries without TV, and they will continue to do so. In a few years MMA popularity will fade, the same as capoeira, Tae Bo, and so many other styles we have seen come and go.


Regards.


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## jkembry (Jul 16, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Speaking of black belts, we don't see the rank as the only reference of one's knowledge. I mean, we don't train to achieve a Dan Rank, we go beyond that.
> As a matter of fact, in my school is common to see someone to keep the same dan for a while, because we are not in a hurry to become high ranked black belts.




I have been led to think...and believe that achieving a Dan Rank is the true beginning of the practicing of MA.  The kyu ranks are there to prepare me to begin practicing in my style.  They provide the foundation that it is based on.  As my Sensei has said once Shodan is achieved...you will begin again.

As far as MMA...I tend to agree that this may be more of a fad that is hyped by television and cable.   I tend to enjoy the traditional styles of MA...more because the underlying ethics and principles are taught.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 16, 2008)

jkembry said:


> I have been led to think...and believe that achieving a Dan Rank is the true beginning of the practicing of MA. .


 
Some Federations lead their students to believe the Dan Rank is the core of the training, the whole purpose of the Martial artist. They do it because the more Dan test they do, the more money they make. it's not students's fault, they only believe what they are taught.

We have seen many High Ranked Black Belts who are worth nothing. 
So, we prefer to have high knowledge and low rank Black belt, than Higk rank and low knowledge. If you have a low rank but your knowledge and skills are great, nobody will criticize you. Quite the opposite happens when you are high ranked but poor on knowledge and skills.

Any Dan Rank is to be backed up with knowledge, skills and warrior spirit, not only with a DAN certificate.


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## girlbug2 (Jul 16, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> I suspect that the idea of asking to test being prohibited derives from two sources:
> 
> The Confucian idea of treating and respecting your Instructor as you would your parent, following what they say, and letting them make the decisions. Foreign concept for many Americans, I know, but prevalent in traditional martial arts


 
In that same vein, when I was growing up my parents were able to distinguish right away between my genuine questions (asked to remedy my own ignorance as "when can I start driving a car?") and insolent statements posing as questions (such as "who died and made you Queen of the planet?") The former is respectful, the latter, disrespectful. They answered accordingly.

What I am having trouble with is understanding the prevalent attitude here that students apparently do not have the right to ask about their progress, which is most likely the reason behind asking to test. That, to my mind, is an example of a genuine question posed to remedy ignorance. Why would a sensei be offended at such a question? It is a sign that the student is enthusiastic and attempting to assess their progress. I see nothing disrespectful in that. In fact, if I were the teacher, I would

But then again, that in itself may be a key point between the cultural attitudes of East and West, eh? The Western teacher translates "when can I test" to "I am eager to know if I am ready" and the Eastern teacher translates it to "I don't trust your judgement"?

My teachers thus far have all been more like parents or coaches to me than military commanders. I respect them greatly, and they encourage me to ask questions. I have never been afraid to approach them with questions about my progress, just as I would not be afraid to ask my parents or my coach -- and as I would hope my own kids would not be afraid to approach me. I consider that to be a healthy student/teacher relationship.


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## KELLYG (Jul 16, 2008)

I think that asking to test depends on what type of relationship that you have with your instructor.  Some schools are more casual with respect to student master relationships.  Our school has a regular testing criteria and if for some reason the prospective tester is not up to par then they are pulled to the side and told what they need to work on and that they would not test this cycle.  I have also see parents that would hold there children back from testing until they improve on grades, attitude etc.  I have also seen skip test but the person testing had to preform the testing criteria for both levels during the same test.  This skip testing was preformed at the request of the master not the student.  I have tested at the request of the masters when I felt that I was not entirely ready. I then was driven into growing into the higher rank.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> How do you feel about your students asking to test?
> 
> Do you think that this is bad form? Do you reserve the right to dictate who tests and who does not or do you allow anyone to test if they feel that they are ready?
> 
> How about skipping ranks?


 
Back in my day of training arts that had belt ranks you NEVER asked to test.

Skipping rank I do not ever remember happening 

But I am talking a long long time ago and I am sure things have changed by now.


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## YoungMan (Jul 16, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> In that same vein, when I was growing up my parents were able to distinguish right away between my genuine questions (asked to remedy my own ignorance as "when can I start driving a car?") and insolent statements posing as questions (such as "who died and made you Queen of the planet?") The former is respectful, the latter, disrespectful. They answered accordingly.
> 
> What I am having trouble with is understanding the prevalent attitude here that students apparently do not have the right to ask about their progress, which is most likely the reason behind asking to test. That, to my mind, is an example of a genuine question posed to remedy ignorance. Why would a sensei be offended at such a question? It is a sign that the student is enthusiastic and attempting to assess their progress. I see nothing disrespectful in that. In fact, if I were the teacher, I would
> 
> ...


 
In traditional arts, there is a difference between asking your instructor to critique your technique as a way to measure your progress and asking to test.
Asking your instructor to watch and critique your technique is a perfectly valid way to gauge your progress. You can also ask other students and black belts as they have a point of view you don't have.
It is not, however, okay to ask to test because that implies you think you're ready when your instructor may not. R
ecommendation is one of the privileges of being an instructor. I would never verbally attack someone for asking to test, but rather explain to them that testing is my discretion.
However, the higher they get, the angrier I get when these rules aren't followed. I can tolerate it when a white belt doesn't bow, not when a black belt doesn't bow. If a low belt asks to test, I just explain what the rule is. If a black belt asks to test, I might have a little chat with them.


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## girlbug2 (Jul 16, 2008)

Okay, that makes more sense to me.


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