# Martial Arts and physical fitness



## StraightRazor (Jun 29, 2004)

Do you guys think that martial arts are really an effective method of physical fitness? Some schools advertise that they provide physical fitness. Is there a solid reason to look at martial arts as exercise? Should you even approach the arts with anything except effective self defense as the primary motivation?


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## Faye (Jun 29, 2004)

Why not? I can't speak for all martial arts, but in my TKD class, they really work you, and you are so sweaty (great cardio exercise!!) In terms of goals, some people learn MA for self defense, some for the sport (tournaments), and some do it for the sole purpose of physical fitness.


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## Flatlander (Jun 29, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Do you guys think that martial arts are really an effective method of physical fitness? Some schools advertise that they provide physical fitness. Is there a solid reason to look at martial arts as exercise? Should you even approach the arts with anything except effective self defense as the primary motivation?


My thought here is that physical fitness is really important for self defense.  So if you're serious about martial arts and self defense, physical conditioning is tantamount to your success.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to know how to defend, if you don't have enough breath to do it.


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## loki09789 (Jun 29, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> My thought here is that physical fitness is really important for self defense. So if you're serious about martial arts and self defense, physical conditioning is tantamount to your success. It doesn't make a lot of sense to know how to defend, if you don't have enough breath to do it.


Agreed, who cares if you are technically 'perfect' or naturally agile if you can not deliver with any kind of force or sustain power generation/avoid fatigue?

The question is what sport comparison of fitness is appropriate as a martial artist?  I think the fitness of a professional boxer is a little unreaslistic for most people to maintain (family, job, life in general...), I think the strength/power of a football lineman is a bit much to maintain as well....

How should a martial artist, especially if self defense is the goal, train fitness and conditioning?

Not a bad topic this time Straightrazor.


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## Flatlander (Jun 29, 2004)

> Not a bad topic this time Straightrazor.


Quite good, actually.



> The question is what sport comparison of fitness is appropriate as a martial artist?
> 
> How should a martial artist, especially if self defense is the goal, train fitness and conditioning?


It's tough to draw the line anywhere, really.  I mean, it's fair to say that there's nothing wrong with _eventually _having the stamina to go 12 rounds.

With defense in mind, I think its fair that one should be able to run full tilt for at least three or four blocks, and then defend oneself from say, two attackers, and then run two or three more blocks.  As I said, totally arbitrary, but decent start, no?


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## loki09789 (Jun 29, 2004)

Been playing ice hockey for a few years now and have found that the athletic traits of hockey correspond nicely to self defense focused martial arts conditioning.

The ability to read a situation and react quickly with a good choice, make powerful/quick direction changes, and generate good power as fatigue creates what is known as "an increasing environment of stress" in sports/conditioning circles have all translated well.

I have a great workout guide that covers off/pre/during and post season training for hockey.  OF course I live in the real world where training isn't my main job so I have to modify this 'fantasy workout plan' (if I was a rich/scholarshiped college kid...maybe), but it has been very helpful.

The most important thing that I notice is the emphasis on interval bursts of intensity instead of only sustained cardio work outs.  This simulates the all out effort of a hockey shift (30-90 seconds ideally) and that time sort of relates to the time/duration of intensity in most 'theoretical' street encounters.


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## Flatlander (Jun 29, 2004)

Sounds great!  I can't sprint a block.  Smoker


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## loki09789 (Jun 29, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Sounds great! I can't sprint a block. Smoker


Not a smoker, but I do run like a sissy girl....

In all seriousness though, among the commercially successful systems out there based on my own experience, TKD schools train really hard in terms of fitness and conditioning in general.  THere may be other specific system schools/clubs that push hard but I think the sport/olympic link that TKD has promotes this kind of athleticism.  ONe of the best goalies in my son's hockey league studies TKD and he may not be 'the best' goalie but he is by far the most athletically fit/conditioned.  His flexibility is a huge asset.  He can close up the five hole and huge stretches of the bottom of the net as a direct benefit of TKD flexibility and lower body skill.


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## Marginal (Jun 30, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Do you guys think that martial arts are really an effective method of physical fitness? Some schools advertise that they provide physical fitness. Is there a solid reason to look at martial arts as exercise? Should you even approach the arts with anything except effective self defense as the primary motivation?



There's a study on pubmed that found that there are few aerobic benefits to practicing TKD, but anaerobic capacity was increased by 30% in the studied practitioers. 

That aside, I largely started training because I thought that I'd actually stick with a MA, and that a MA would get me moving, which would help me get more physically fit. Studying TKD upped my energy, and led to me taking up running and other conditioning outside of class. So I can say that it did help my fitness level signifigantly. Not from TKD alone, but from it encouragin me to be more active overall so I didn't fall behind. That, and the better conditioned you are, the better you're gonna do in a fight regardless.


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## Tony (Jun 30, 2004)

In my class I can guarantee you are going to sweat every lesson no matter what the weather and over here in England our class has no AC.
I think its imperative you are fit because an attacker isn't going to stop attacking you just because you get a stitch or you need to sit down.
But if you incapacitate an attacker then you can save yourself a lot of energy instead of running away but atleast if you get the physical exercise you'll be fit enough to run like crazy.


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## The Kai (Jun 30, 2004)

Fitness is paramount to your training and can help you from injuring yourself!

The problem is what fitness.  weight lifting?  IMHO not a great match and takes away more of your free time.  Running personally hate it, so I rollerblade(Which strenghtens you adducter and abducter muscles) and Bike and swim (seasonal).  Lots of repition training also bang the bags to train your body to deliver power at the point of impact.
Above all experiment find what works for you and what is fun (makes much easier to do).  everyone is different
Todd


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## OULobo (Jun 30, 2004)

The best way to train anything, to get good at any one thing, is to do it a lot. If you want to get good at punching, punch a lot; if you want to get good at running, run a lot; if you want to get good at fighting, fight a lot. If you want to get good at lifting pointlessly heavy bars off your chest, then do a lot of benchpresses. 

I do a lot of running, because I walk a lot (I do the swimming and biking because it's fun), and I do a lot of calistenics because I move my body a lot. I don't do them with the express intent of supplimenting my training. 

I excercise because it's fun. It's nice to feel good, to look good, to be healthy, to make up for the horribly fattening food I eat, but mostly because it's fun. That's the same reason I train the MAs. I don't see training MAs as a method of physical fitness, although you gain some of those benefits. If my intent was physical fitness, I'd imagine there are better ways.


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## Tgace (Jun 30, 2004)

I like to look back on my military days and parallel this to say a road march. The concept is to be able to "hump" a combat load (75lb+) a distance resembling what you may see in combat. I had to do 20mi. to graduate AIT. Now just marching was "physical training" in and of itself, but if you wanted to be in shape enough to do anything at the end of it, you better have good cardio fitness and muscular endurance. These traits, while improved by "doing it" needed cross training in running, lifting, calisthenics, foot toughening etc. if you wanted to do it well.


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## StraightRazor (Jun 30, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Agreed, who cares if you are technically 'perfect' or naturally agile if you can not deliver with any kind of force or sustain power generation/avoid fatigue?
> 
> The question is what sport comparison of fitness is appropriate as a martial artist?  I think the fitness of a professional boxer is a little unreaslistic for most people to maintain (family, job, life in general...), I think the strength/power of a football lineman is a bit much to maintain as well....
> 
> ...



Thanks. I was thinking about this as I saw a TV program about those Russian Brother boxers and the training they go through. Even pro-sports guys like your example of hockey players and football players. They dont rely on just doing their sport to keep them in shape for their sport. With that in mind, some martial arts people Ive met seem to think that just doing their art is enough. I was wondering if thats right. Do you "need" to be in perfect shape to defend yourself? I can see sport fighters needing it, but what about the average person? Is class enough to qualify as exercise?


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## loki09789 (Jun 30, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Thanks. I was thinking about this as I saw a TV program about those Russian Brother boxers and the training they go through. Even pro-sports guys like your example of hockey players and football players. They dont rely on just doing their sport to keep them in shape for their sport. With that in mind, some martial arts people Ive met seem to think that just doing their art is enough. I was wondering if thats right. Do you "need" to be in perfect shape to defend yourself? I can see sport fighters needing it, but what about the average person? Is class enough to qualify as exercise?


I think the brothers you are referring to are the Klichko (sp?) brothers and I was laughing when you mentioned the training they go through because I know that at least on of them is a doctor of sports medicine.  They flip roles as fighter and trainer depending on who is up for the next match....almost spooky how it could be life imitating art ala Rocky IV with "Ivan Drago" training all scientific and high tech....

Perfect will depend on what you expect to face.  I don't think that class is enough though.  Thank God that most people who train don't really statistically have to worry too much to test that idea.

When all else fails, get on a bike, grab a jump rope or find a cardio/motion based activity that you like and stick to it.  Do it fast and do it slow, do it for time/distance or do it for repetitions/cycles - basically play with it for variety and challenge.  The fitness will come.  Someone mentioned basic PT type exercises - I think that is great and cheap as hell too.

There should be foundation of strength and endurance first (about 2/3 months of minimum of 3x's a week of simple strength and about 90 minutes weekly total of cardio) before you consider it, but I think that the interval/burst exercises will benefit civilian/self defense training the most.  For some this might be that regularly scheduled sparring or conditioning class at the school itself.  This is great because it is using the motions that you will apply for PT.  Two birds with one stone.  I like jumping rope for intervals because it doesn't take up much space and can be a 'home work out/low tech' and easy to fit into the routine.

I am getting creeped out, we are on the same wavelength....don't get use to it though


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## Littledragon (Jun 30, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Do you guys think that martial arts are really an effective method of physical fitness? Some schools advertise that they provide physical fitness. Is there a solid reason to look at martial arts as exercise? Should you even approach the arts with anything except effective self defense as the primary motivation?


Well I would say in general Martial Arts movtive was for self-defense but look at it now, you have Cardio Kick-Boxing classes, Tai Chi, Tae Bo (not really a martial art but includes some kicks and things like that) But martial arts first primary goals was indeed for physical and mental fitness as of why the 18 Hands of Lo Han was established, from there they converted it yo be used practically for self defense situations.

But Martial Arts in my opinion is the best method of physical fitness, it unites the mind and body in one which no other type of activity does. Boxing doesnt do it, soccer doesnt do it or basketball. Martial Arts contains teachings which no other sport has. So to answer your question martial arts is extremly effective for physical fitness. Not only does it strengthen the body but the spiritual and mental element as well. 
You should approach martial arts expecting self defense as well because you can be the strongest and most fit person in the world and still get killed in the street if you don't know how to sucesfully defend yourself. In my adivce go for both because regardless if the martial art just focuses on self defense, you still get better exercise than any other sport will provide.

TAREK


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 1, 2004)

Speaking from personal experience, just doing forms 10 times in a row correctly is a great way to learn that A. It really helps to be physically fit to practice serious martial arts. and B. Martial arts will get you into shape whether you want to be or not. It is just about impossible to practice good form, basics, and sparring and not be in shape.


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 1, 2004)

I can't see how doing a couple hundred punches and kicks, sparring, one-steps, and grappling could NOT be a good fitness activity.  And, of course, most schools put an emphasis on specific fitness activities as part of the class.

It's estimated that an hour of karate burns over 400 calories for a 150 lb man.  That's about the same as cycling, but not as much as running.  I'd guess that cardio-kickboxing is more aerobic than martial arts, because it's sustained.


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## Littledragon (Jul 1, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Speaking from personal experience, just doing forms 10 times in a row correctly is a great way to learn that A. It really helps to be physically fit to practice serious martial arts. and B. Martial arts will get you into shape whether you want to be or not. It is just about impossible to practice good form, basics, and sparring and not be in shape.


Yes I totally agree with you.

No matter what the martial arts main motive is, just practicing martial arts gives you a great exercise because like I said martial arts is such a great form of physical fitness because it unites mind body and spirit together.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 8, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Do you guys think that martial arts are really an effective method of physical fitness? Some schools advertise that they provide physical fitness. Is there a solid reason to look at martial arts as exercise? Should you even approach the arts with anything except effective self defense as the primary motivation?


When I first began my martial arts training in 1964, weight training and jogging etc.,  were discouraged as 'unnecessary', that all the physical fitness you receive will be incidental to your harsh Judo/Karate/Jiu-jitsu workouts.

In some ways this is true, we were taught then that you would always apply your martial arts in a street encounter "as you are".  The mugger will jump you when you're ill, depressed, injured, wounded, old, young, or whatever state of being you happen to be at the moment - the mugger doesn't care.  You have to apply jiu-jitsu at whatever condition you happen to be in when attacked! 

But secondary training with the weights, or track & field (or ballet), or gymnastics does enhance your martial arts ability.  But you shouldn't give up martial arts if you cannot press weights or run like a deer anymore!  Martial Arts is not professional football with a five year career, martial arts is a life long pursuit!

But as you get over 40 (in my case 50) and your old tournament injuries prevent you from doing a flying cresent kick to the head, you go back to your basics and rely on 'technique' over 'strength'.  So if I get jumped, and can't talk my way out of a beating, I'll just use technique and method to cripple my attacker with good jiu-jitsu!


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## Tgace (Jul 9, 2004)

Nice "fighting fitness" site at....

http://www.veloforce.net/Articles.html


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## Zujitsuka (Jul 9, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Do you guys think that martial arts are really an effective method of physical fitness? Some schools advertise that they provide physical fitness. Is there a solid reason to look at martial arts as exercise? Should you even approach the arts with anything except effective self defense as the primary motivation?



As has been mentioned previously, this is a great topic.  Working-out is a very individualized thing.  It depends on what your goals are.  To be a better martial artist, one should be in 'good' shape.  You don't have to train like Chuck "The Iceman" Liddell or any of the MMA guys unless you want to compete in those type of events or on that level.

Most of the time, I like doing following the lessons of 'Strongfortism' (named for Lionel Strongfort) which are calisthenics with added resistance (i.e. light dumbbells).  I really can't explain it, but I gain more than 10 lbs. of lean muscle mass doing these exercises.

I also like to mix it up a little by doing "boot camp calisthenics" (i.e. Scrapper, www.trainforstrength.com), and working out with dumbbells.

At my gym/dojo, we generally don't do too much conditioning work, and when we do, we do so AFTER we train martial arts skills.  My instructor said that if you always try to develop skills while your fatigued, you'll develop sloppy technique.  I always thought that was weird until I read similar statements from respected fitness gurus like Coach Charles Staley (www.myodynamics.com).

My instructor encourages us to work out on our own time because when we hit the mat, we jump right into skill work.

You can't stay in tip-top/peak shape year round.  Once you peak, all that you can do is go downhill - unless you change your workouts.  I learned this the hard way when I was working out at a boxing about a year ago.

Again, for me, I'll do Strongfortism and eat sensibly to keep in 'decent' shape.  If I was going to compete or something like that, I would change up my routine a probably pump some iron and do some plyometrics.  Once the competition is over, back to Strongfortism.


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## TigerWoman (Jul 11, 2004)

Well, since I am considering quitting TKD, haven't been to class in two weeks which is a long time for me.  So if I do go back, the only reason left would be physical health because it has done that for me in the eight years I have been in it.  No, I don't just go to class, I workout on my Total Gym, the treadmill, walks, pushups, forms, etc etc. But classes KEEP me going on all fronts - an objective.  Physical fitnesss is #1 for me.  TW


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## Chrono (Jul 11, 2004)

In my Tang Soo Do class they don't really work you. Of course, that's because I'm still in the begginer class. It's in the advanced class where they really make you sweat. Especially sparring.


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## Baoquan (Jul 12, 2004)

Littledragon said:
			
		

> But Martial Arts in my opinion is the best method of physical fitness, it unites the mind and body in one which no other type of activity does. Boxing doesnt do it, soccer doesnt do it or basketball. Martial Arts contains teachings which no other sport has. So to answer your question martial arts is extremly effective for physical fitness. Not only does it strengthen the body but the spiritual and mental element as well.
> TAREK



Umm...MA is a superior method for gaining physical fitness _to boxing?_ 

Spiritual/Mental/Physical unification aside (and it should be, as the OP specifically mentioned *physical* fitness), boxers on the whole are in far better cardiovascular condition than your general martial artist - and i dont mean pro boxers vs regular MArtists - i mean regular folk on both sides of the equation. I've trained in both the boxing gym (my dad was a trainer) and the TMA dojo (Ueichi-Ryu), and i *know* the difference. You get plenty more general fitness in the boxing gym. MA is a good workout, and a hell of a lot better than sitting on the couch, but you cant play seriously in a boxing gym with out getting relatively sorted in the cardio arena.

When i was training boxing exclusively, i didnt really go to regular gym, but when i train in a dojo, if i dont hit the weights/treadmill/rower a couple times a week, i get antsy. It just doesnt give me enough on that side of things.


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## Chrono (Jul 12, 2004)

Baoquan said:
			
		

> You get plenty more general fitness in the boxing gym.


 That makes sense since all they do is work out and fight. They either hit the bags, get the jump rope, or go into the ring.


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## SMP (Jul 12, 2004)

I think it depends on the instructors emphasis.  Our classes start with over 700 jumping jacks - with good technique. sometimes we do 1000 depending on what the instructor wants. Then we go into stretching. we also do ab work fingertip and knucle push-ups everyday. We may be going very light one day or doing very high intensity.


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## Brother John (Jul 12, 2004)

#1: It depends on what you imply by "physical fitness".
For general health and well being ANYTHING that makes you keep your body moving (no matter how fast or intense) over a period of time is VERY good for you. 
#2: For visceral athletic prowess... then it depends on the school and the style.
For instance, there are some styles that just aren't made for physical prowess, such as Tai Chi. Thought it's a very healthy art to practice, no doubt, you aren't going to become a Jock by means of a Tai Chi Chuan class. Healthy? sure. Athlete? No.
Tae Kwan Do is much more physical, but again...different instructors will bring about different results. When I studied Tae Kwan Do my instructor was very much into the physical fitness aspects and wouldn't let us quit until HE was satisfied. We were in generally good athletic condition. Some instructors aren't as intense though and would probably induce less of a stenuous workout.

There's NEVER only ONE reason for doing something, not really. At least there's never really only one "appropriate" reason for doing it. 
IF someone wants to join the local dojo for fitness...
GREAT! They'll get more than just that.
If for sport, GREAT!
They'll get more than just that.
If for a social life, GREAT....
etc.

Your Brother (I'm in it for the cool patches)
John


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## Baoquan (Jul 12, 2004)

Brother John...

All excellent points. Its definately better exercise than a lot of people are getting regularly, and if that's what gets them into the dojo....sweet!!

Cheers

Baoquan


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 2, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> There's a study on pubmed that found that there are few aerobic benefits to practicing TKD, but anaerobic capacity was increased by 30% in the studied practitioers.


That's interesting but obviously crazy. I wonder how the study was designed.  Always remember garbage in/garbage out.  TKD and other martial aarts can provide excellent aerobic training if the class is designed properly.  Obviously not all classes will be designed with aerobic workout in mind.  My Kenpo classes are rarely good aerobic workouts but they are useful and frequently I'm so tired I can hardly move after class. That's what I get for getting old.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 2, 2005)

Martial arts can be an excellent way to develop and maintain fitness.  One of the problems my patients have is that when they try to get fit they go to the gym or buy some piece of equipment and then quickly become bored.  People continue to exercise when it is disguised as play and most adults have forgotten how to play.  Martial arts can provide aerobic conditioning and anaerobic conditioning.  They do an excellent job of helping improve stablizer muscles and proprioception and thus decreas our risk of falls.  In the right school they also provide a supportive enviroment with friendly competition and goals to push one to work harder than they might on ones own.  Sure you'll get stronger quicker if you just lift weights or get aerobically fit quicker if you ride your bike, but Martial arts can provide the impetus to do so on the side.

Jeff


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## loki09789 (Jan 3, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> People continue to exercise when it is disguised as play and most adults have forgotten how to play.
> Jeff


I have noticed that the 'cardio boot camp' craze fits into what you have described here.

I would LOVE to take/teach a fitness class that was nothing but all those great Kiddy Garden games we use to play...

Parachute
Dodge ball
Jump over the rope
Relay races with the scooters
Grab walk soccer
Tug o war
King of the MTN
Dizzy Izzy Relay races...
....

Imagine how many calories would be lost by laughing at yourself and others as you stumble and fall as a group alone!


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 7, 2005)

Jeet Kune Do, to be fully effective, requires good or great physical fitness. I don't just work out on heavy bags, focus mitts, and with Kali sticks, and train using Carrenza (although these are great workouts if done full bore) I also aerobic kickbox several times a week at a nearby MMA school, lift weights, do isometrics and run.


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