# Clearing up history: naha-te/shur-te/tomari-te



## truth_seeker87 (Jul 14, 2007)

http://karate.dhs.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21

I think this explains the dispute on the history of the splits in Karate-do very well. 

Ms.Hayakawa was a student of Taika Oyata for a good while and her and Shiro Shintaku (another long time student) helped Taika translate his book Ryu-te No Michi, which has alot of good info in it.

I suppose this might clear up some questions of differences in the Okinawan..and even in the Japanese karate styles


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## exile (Jul 14, 2007)

truth_seeker87 said:


> http://karate.dhs.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21
> 
> I think this explains the dispute on the history of the splits in Karate-do very well.
> 
> ...



This is a _great_ link, truth_seeker. The messages&#8212;that you have to be very careful when you do MA history and get the detailed background, _but_ also that much of that background is gone beyond recovery and constitutes a kind of upper limit on what we will ever know&#8212;are very important, but also a bit discouraging. True knowledge is very fragile...


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## truth_seeker87 (Jul 14, 2007)

The ideas here are only meant to stimulate discussion. I am interested in what people think of the history of Karatedo. Indeed it is a little discouraging the amount we don't and may never know, doesn't mean we can't try at least.


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## chinto (Jul 16, 2007)

truth_seeker87 said:


> The ideas here are only meant to stimulate discussion. I am interested in what people think of the history of Karatedo. Indeed it is a little discouraging the amount we don't and may never know, doesn't mean we can't try at least.


 

interesting take on it. but, I know that some men who were trained in one style or other did take on students. some would have defently been bushi, chotoku kyon was bushi class if i remember right. but I dont think motobu was, and yet he did learn karate. so I think there is more the to story.  

but good link and thoughtfull information there.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 16, 2007)

Yes an interesting article
thanks


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## Ray B (Jul 16, 2007)

chinto said:


> interesting take on it. but, I know that some men who were trained in one style or other did take on students. some would have defently been bushi, chotoku kyon was bushi class if i remember right. but I dont think motobu was, and yet he did learn karate. so I think there is more the to story.
> 
> but good link and thoughtfull information there.


 

Motobu Chokki was Bushi. His older brother Choyu inherited
the family martial system. He was the 11th successor. They were
direct decendents of King Sho Shitsu. Although Choyu got all of the
private instruction, Chokki learned from Matsumura and a few others
as well as his brother. Chomo (Choyu's son) was to be the next successor
but was not interested so Uehara Seikichi inherited it. He then passed
it on to Chokki's son Chomei(?). He learned his father's karate, Motobu-
ryu, and his uncle's, Motobu Undunte (Palace Hand).


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## exile (Jul 16, 2007)

Ray B said:


> Motobu Chokki was Bushi. His older brother Choyu inherited
> the family martial system. He was the 11th successor. They were
> direct decendents of King Sho Shitsu. Although Choyu got all of the
> private instruction, Chokki learned from Matsumura and a few others
> ...



I'd be very interested in getting hold of your sources for this information, Ray. Is there someplace all this information is provided? It would be very valuable to have at hand...


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## chinto (Jul 17, 2007)

Ray B said:


> Motobu Chokki was Bushi. His older brother Choyu inherited
> the family martial system. He was the 11th successor. They were
> direct decendents of King Sho Shitsu. Although Choyu got all of the
> private instruction, Chokki learned from Matsumura and a few others
> ...


 

ok, thanks for the info there.  I knew he was known for brawling in the docks aria, but did not know he was of the bushi class . 
 I do know that some of the farmers and fishermen and sailors had at least some training. but then i would be suprised if sailors and fishermen didnt find a way to get some training to defend themselves in waterfront bars and such.  To what extent that training may have been I am sure varied from man to man. but, comoners did get some training in Okinawa, just as for instance it was common for a pesent or freeman farmer to know some quarter staff and maybe a bit about useing a knife as a weapon in europe and england in the 1300's AD.


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## Ray B (Jul 17, 2007)

exile said:


> I'd be very interested in getting hold of your sources for this information, Ray. Is there someplace all this information is provided? It would be very valuable to have at hand...


 

I got this directly out of Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate".
This has proved to be indispensible. I have the second edition
so when Bishop was researching the Motobu family, Choyu's art
was being called Motobu-ryu but has since been renamed 
Motobu Udunte and Chokki's art was given the name Motobu-ryu.
At least this is the way I remember Chokki's son stating it in the Dragon Times.

Motobu Chokki's reputation as being a common street brawler and uneducated is a bit
misleading. Being bushi, he had access to the education of a royal family member.
The problem was when he went to Japan. He did not speak Japanese very well
and because of that, he was labeled uneducated. His street brawls were common
in the day. Many MA's at the time threw down challege matches.

Here's a link to Goodin Sensei's web page for the Hawaiian Seinenkai: http://seinenkai.com/
Just type in Motobu and you will have a wealth of information.


Peace.


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## exile (Jul 17, 2007)

Ray B said:


> I got this directly out of Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate".
> This has proved to be indispensible. I have the second edition
> so when Bishop was researching the Motobu family, Choyu's art
> was being called Motobu-ryu but has since been renamed
> ...



Outstanding, I also have the book! It's nice to get a source from someone where you don't have to special-order it from your library... many thanks. I've read parts of that bookit's pretty dense, so I've used it mostly as a reference work.



Ray B said:


> Motobu Chokki's reputation as being a common street brawler and uneducated is a bit
> misleading. Being bushi, he had access to the education of a royal family member.
> The problem was when he went to Japan. He did not speak Japanese very well
> and because of that, he was labeled uneducated. His street brawls were common
> in the day. Many MA's at the time threw down challege matches.



Yes, and this is routinely ignored in the common kind of mystification of the MAs whereby some of the greatest of all time are dissed as not being `true' MAists because, well, they sought out fights just to prove their prowess. Hell, it was the samurai who invented _kakedemishi_ challenges... they weren't MAists?

What's funny is that you often see quotes in connection with the supposed near-sainthood of `true' MAists which are belied by their reported behavior, often abundantly documented in independent sources, which suggests that they were, if truth be known, merely human. The problem is that what people say and what they do are very different things, as are what they say at one time and what they say at a later time. I can well believe that when Motobu was older, his comportment was quite a bit different from when he was a young `experimentalist' eager to apply the techniques he had learned from his instructors in, um, `live' training as it was practiced at that time.... 



Ray B said:


> Here's a link to Goodin Sensei's web page for the Hawaiian Seinenkai: http://seinenkai.com/
> Just type in Motobu and you will have a wealth of information.
> 
> 
> Peace.



Brilliant, Ray, I really appreciate this!


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## DavidCC (Jul 17, 2007)

Ray B said:


> I got this directly out of Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate".
> This has proved to be indispensible.


 
Here is a link to the book on Amazon:
Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques


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## chinto (Aug 20, 2007)

Ray B said:


> I got this directly out of Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate".
> This has proved to be indispensible. I have the second edition
> so when Bishop was researching the Motobu family, Choyu's art
> was being called Motobu-ryu but has since been renamed
> ...


 
Ihave the book "Okinawan Karate" by Mark Bishop, and it is so very dense in information that I recomend it to any one with an interest in Okinawan karate.  You read a chapter and go back and read it again and see things that you did not retain. I retain and comprehend what I read very well and still there is so very much in there, and the names of course are in hogan and japanses which do not help with retention... but great great book!


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