# Questions for karateka in kata-oriented dojos



## Shuri-te (Feb 20, 2003)

Fellow Martial Artists:

I am trying to better understand some issues regarding how kata is commonly taught and practiced in Okinawan and Japanese systems today. I have two questions targeted to those karateka that both train in dojos with an emphasis on kata practice, and have an expectation that kata movements provide for good self defense. 

For those of you that would like to participate in the post, it would be helpful if you would imagine you have a new beginner student that is "typical." (Average strength, athletic ability, and motivation). The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment.

This student has heard that it often takes approximately 4 years to get to black belt and is expecting to make this investment. Whether the student ever makes it to black belt is not an issue, but for now, all this student is planning is a 4-year investment in the art. 

Now let's imagine this student comes to the dojo a reasonable amount for an average student. (You should feel free to define it, but I would say the minimum would be between 3 and 4 hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year).

If this hypothetical "average" student were to train in your dojo, 

1. What would be the rate of introduction of kata. (A new kata introduced, on average, every xx months.) 

2. What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. If the number changes over time, the rate of change would be useful as well. (1st year students - xx number of total kata reps per month, 2nd year students - yy number of total kata reps, etc.) 

Rough estimates would be fine.

Anything else you want to throw in on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks for the help.


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## Disco (Feb 21, 2003)

I would say that your generalized time frame of 3 or 4 hrs would be correct. I cannot comment too factually on Japaneese or Okinawan Kata, but it is my understanding that they are more esoteric. I'm basing this on information provided to the MA world, that I have read, on the history and values of Okinawan Karate (the 3 original Ryu's, goju, ishin and shorin). 

The katas/hyungs in Korean that I am familiar with (WTF) are nothing more than patterns to emphasize refining blocking and kicking. They were fashioned for competition. There is nothing wrong with that unto itself, but there are/is no hidden agenda embedded (perhaps some of the older Korean style's have that aspect to them). Because they were designed for competition, every belt rank has their own (16 kata/hyung for all ranks withing WTF TKD). 

Now because the J/O kata's have that value to them, it should/would take much longer, mabey not to perfect the movements, but to under stand all their implications.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 24, 2003)

In my dojo [traditional Okinawan goju-ryu] I introduce a new student to their first kata within the first two weeks. How quickly they move on is up to them? Some folk have the ability to remember things quicker than others, however, remembering the moves of a kata is not the same as knowing it. Students have to be able to display their skill and understanding through bunkai  as well as the empty air form of doing the kata.

I don't believe in holding students back just to suit some grading syllabus, nor would I teach a student anything I didn't feel they were able to understand. In my dojo, a students progress is determined by them alone, I just endorse their progress, or lack of it!

Mike.


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## yilisifu (Feb 24, 2003)

I start a student on his first basic form within the first couple of weeks.  How quickly he progresses from one to the next depends on him and how well he assimilates what he's learning.

   The number of repititions of a given form is really hard to estimate.  Almost every class involves some form work...


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> For those of you that would like to participate in the post, it would be helpful if you would imagine you have a new beginner student that is "typical." (Average strength, athletic ability, and motivation). The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment. *



If thats the case I would tell him to go to another dojo.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *This student has heard that it often takes approximately 4 years to get to black belt and is expecting to make this investment. Whether the student ever makes it to black belt is not an issue, but for now, all this student is planning is a 4-year investment in the art. *



4 years?thats kind of quick.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Now let's imagine this student comes to the dojo a reasonable amount for an average student. (You should feel free to define it, but I would say the minimum would be between 3 and 4 hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year).
> 
> If this hypothetical "average" student were to train in your dojo,
> ...



Just out of curiosity why all the hypothetical stuff?


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## Shuri-te (Feb 25, 2003)

Mike Clarke said:



> In my dojo [traditional Okinawan goju-ryu] I introduce a new student to their first kata within the first two weeks. How quickly they move on is up to them?



Mike,

I would be grateful if you could provide me with an approximate number of kata an "average" student might be practicing after say 3 years. But what I am really looking for is the total number of reps, on average that this student might do over time, say in a week or a month? Again an approximation would be fine.

Thanks.

Shuri-te


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## Shuri-te (Feb 25, 2003)

Yilisifu said:



> The number of repititions of a given form is really hard to estimate. Almost every class involves some form work...



Yilisifu,

Is there any way you might be able to approximate the number of kata repetitions an average student might practice over time. You can define it any way you want. Say, for example, an "average" student has been with you for three years, and attends class an average amount of time (perhaps 5 hours per week). 

How many form repetitions might that person practice, in class, over say a month, on average?

Thanks for the help.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 25, 2003)

> RyuShiKan said: If thats the case I would tell him to go to another dojo.


I am curious what requirements you have in your dojo regarding the personal goals of a prospective student. A sole desire to learn self defense appears insufficient. Can you share what other motivations would be necessary?



> RyuShiKan said: 4 years?thats kind of quick.


In your opinion, what would be an average period of time to reach Shodan for all kata-oriented karate systems that you are familiar with? This would be based on the assumptions described. (Average student in every way, training say, 4 hours per week, 50 weeks per year.)



> RyuShiKan said: Just out of curiosity why all the hypothetical stuff?


I am not quite sure how I would be able to draw any useful  conclusions in the absence of common assumptions on which answers would be based.


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## yilisifu (Feb 25, 2003)

It's difficult to put a very accurate number on the number of repetitions of forms practiced in a month.  I would guesstimate that if the student attends a 90 minute class three times weekly, he would likely run a given form about 35-40 times at a bare minimum.


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## chufeng (Feb 25, 2003)

ShuriTe,

You asked: 





> How many form repetitions might that person practice, in class, over say a month, on average?



As a student of YiLiShifu's, I think his first response is best...
If, say for instance, I was slow picking up new material, I would never "run" a form completely through until I had all of the parts. Sifu would not expect someone to perfom a movement that was never taught...

So, for me, I might take a month just to LEARN the movements of the form...and then practice that form for the next 6 to 8 weeks before being exposed to something new...and while being introduced to new material, the older material was always reviewed...

So, your question, "how many times does the average student run a given form in a month?" is almost impossible to answer.
Sifu may run the form 45 times in a month as he's teaching it to the students, but the students don't run it that many times because there is always the "I'm stuck" factor...

Sifu's classes are not the "shake and bake" mini-mall type classes where everyone (sometimes 60 or more students) repeats movements by imitation...he actually explains WHY the movements are done a particular way...

Then there is the "gifted" student who will pick things up very quickly...that student may run the form as many times as Sifu...and then there is everyone in between...

So the answer, "it depends," really is the best answer...

IMHO

:asian:
chufeng


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 25, 2003)

My class lasts for 2 hours each night. We do kata for 1 hour. And then we do other stuff for an hour.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 25, 2003)

BTW I train in Shorin Ryu.


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## GojuBujin (Feb 25, 2003)

Greetings,

Unfortunately at the present I am teaching out of a Taekwondo dojo that does not use the place on saturday and sunday.  So we train during that time.  Approximatley 4hrs a week of dojo time.  The students are instructed they must work out at home in order to develop any proficiency

For the first month or even two.  They do kihon.  Basic Blocks, strikes, front kick, sanchin dachi, musubi dachi, zenkutsu dachi, heiko dachi.  The are also taught Sandan Gi, its a 3 level blocking striking exercise.

After the first 2 months I usually start them on Sanchin or Gekisai Dai Ichi, it just depends  on the student.  If I start them on Sanchin they'll work on that for a month or two, then most likely they'll be started on Gekisai Dai Ichi and depending on how well they pick that up they'll start Gekisai Dai Ni(very similar kata) a few months later.

They'll work on these 3 kata for several months.  Let's say they'll be 9 or 10 months into it before they start on Saifa(maybe)

During all this kata training of course they're also learning and devloping bunkai.

It will take a an average person 3 to 4yrs if they train approximately 3-4 days a week in the dojo in addition to working out on their own to attain Shodan in our school.

Only working out 2 days a week and not working out at all at home I'd say they're not going to get Shodan ever.

If they train 2 days a week in the dojo and train RELIGIOUSLY at home probably 4-5yrs for Shodan.

I always trained 5 days a week in the dojos I've trained in, in addition to training at home.  When I was old enough and I got a key I was in the dojo a lot of times on a 6th day as well.

It's more than just kata.  Anyone can do the mechanics.  It has to be a part of you and your life.  Karate is just not external it is internal.  It's also knowing the history of the art where it came from, any philosophies associated with it.  It's just not so cut and dry like 123.  It's done on an idividual basis.

If a student does not train consistently and is not devoting themselves to the art, they are told ie you need to train more, u need to dedicate yourself more, if they do not, unfortunately for them they are in no uncertain terms "asked" to leave.  Which unfortunately I found my self having to do such lately.

Of the students that did leave they all completely understood why they had to leave and they're now moving on to what ever it is they're going to move onto.

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai


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## Shuri-te (Feb 25, 2003)

SRyuFighter,

Are you affiliated with Dan Smith?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *I am curious what requirements you have in your dojo regarding the personal goals of a prospective student. A sole desire to learn self defense appears insufficient. Can you share what other motivations would be necessary? *



Firstly, real Karate IS self-defense. 
Secondly, In our association we have a dojo kun, literally code of ethics (as most other karate dojo have as well) that we must learn and try to follow.

DojoKun:

1.  "Work very hard to perfect or complete human character."

2. "Protect the way of honesty or sincerity"  

3.  "Nurture the hard working spirit" 

4. "Value or respect etiquette or manners" 

5.  "Restrain the desire to be aggressive"   

These are pretty common sense type things and have no religious affiliation.
The reason why we emphasize training both physical and mind is because a correct state of mind is equally important to martial training as the physical.
I have given several students the boot for lacking "proper moral fiber" or lacking in sincerity in their training.




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *In your opinion, what would be an average period of time to reach Shodan for all kata-oriented karate systems that you are familiar with? This would be based on the assumptions described. (Average student in every way, training say, 4 hours per week, 50 weeks per year.) *



I have no idea about other systems since we have very little in common with them. However in our system I think the average time is about 6~8 years training on average 8 hours a week.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 26, 2003)

RyuShiKan:

There are some, myself included that believe that firstly, secondly, thirdly and fourthly, real karate is self-defense. This is why I was curious why you would so quickly send someone with a sole desire to learn self-defense, packing off to some other dojo. 

I am also curious how you teach someone to "work hard to perfect or complete human character". Can you share some of these elements with this forum? Are your practices standard across RyuTe dojos?

Regarding the other elements of your dojo kun, I am also curious how you would apply those to a student, sight unseen, who might come to your dojo and express a desire to train for four years solely to learn self defense, such that you could instanteously make a decision that they should train elsewhere. 

The assumption has been that this student would be average in every way, and meets some minimum amount of time for training, which is your definition.  

If you would send an "average" student off to another dojo, once you sized up their "average" work ethic, their "average" respect for others, and their "average" sincerity (average given the norms in your dojo), it just might be possible that in fairness to all you students, you just might have to send up to half your class off to another dojo.

Finally, I fail to see how the requirement to have the students have the right "state-of-mind" for good training supports a reason to dismiss this hypothetical student. This student has merely said that he has not come to your dojo "to study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment, or to carry on a tradition." He wants to learn self defense and is in the middle of the pack in your dojo in every way, including having the right state-of-mind. 

Do you equate a desire for moral and spiritual enlightment in the dojo as a prerequisite for achieving the right state-of-mind necessary for effective training? Or is it possible for a student to have the right state-of-mind absent these goals?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  RyuShiKan:
> There are some, myself included that believe that firstly, secondly, thirdly and fourthly, real karate is self-defense. This is why I was curious why you would so quickly send someone with a sole desire to learn self-defense, packing off to some other dojo. *



Your original statement implied that they were only wishing to learn technique, not kata, not any of the other things that are included in the art.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment. *





> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  I am also curious how you teach someone to "work hard to perfect or complete human character".*



Through training.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *   Can you share some of these elements with this forum? Are your practices standard across RyuTe dojos? *



Can I? Yes.
Will I? No, mainly because I have no desire to type out long lengthy explanations for someone whom I have never met.
Are pracrices the same through out all our association dojos? Possibly.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  Regarding the other elements of your dojo kun, I am also curious how you would apply those to a student, sight unseen, who might come to your dojo and express a desire to train for four years solely to learn self defense, such that you could instanteously make a decision that they should train elsewhere. *



Explained above.




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  If you would send an "average" student off to another dojo, once you sized up their "average" work ethic, their "average" respect for others, and their "average" sincerity (average given the norms in your dojo), it just might be possible that in fairness to all you students, you just might have to send up to half your class off to another dojo. *



Again, explained above.





> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  Finally, I fail to see how the requirement to have the students have the right "state-of-mind" for good training supports a reason to dismiss this hypothetical student. This student has merely said that he has not come to your dojo "to study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment, or to carry on a tradition." He wants to learn self defense and is in the middle of the pack in your dojo in every way, including having the right state-of-mind. *




Why?
Because the original parameters of your hypothetical student were this:




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment. *



While carrying on a tradition makes no difference, the studying for moral and spiritual development does. If they have no interest in this then I would suggest they shop elsewhere. 



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *  Do you equate a desire for moral and spiritual enlightment in the dojo as a prerequisite for achieving the right state-of-mind necessary for effective training? *



Yes.


Just out of curiousity under your primary art it says Godan Shihan.
Why?

Also, what is the purpose for asking these questions about a hypothetical student?
Is it out of morbid curiosity or is there some actual purpose behind it?


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 26, 2003)

Shuri-te,
I can't give you a firm answer to your question regarding the amount of times a student might practice their kata in my dojo.
I don't have a 'set' class as such. The dojo is open and they come when they have the time and stay for as long as they can.

While they are in the dojo they work on all aspects of their training [in my dojo everything is linked to kata] though it may look to an observer like some people are fighting and others lifting weights, and others 'look' like they're training in kata. 
Never the less, they are ALL doing kata training as this is the 'attitude' [re; tradition] handed down to me from my teachers.

I don't keep a check on how many times they do a kata in thin air over the years. I just make a note of their improvement, or lack of it. It is up to each student to find the lessons encoded within the kata, how long they take to do that is really up to them.
Sorry I can't be any more helpfull.

Mike.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *SRyuFighter,
> 
> Are you affiliated with Dan Smith? *



No I'm in Seibukan Shorin Ryu.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 26, 2003)

> RyuShiKan said: Your original statement implied that they were only wishing to learn technique, not kata, not any of the other things that are included in the art.



I am curious why you have chose to conjure up some non-existant implication. Nowhere did I use the term "technique". Nowhere did I say this student did not want to study kata. These are your fabrications. For your review, my statement simply said: "The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment." It would be helpful if you would read something before commenting on it.

It would be interesting to know how you vet out the prospective students that don't measure up to your requirement that they seek moral or spiritual development in your dojo. Do you have a questionnaire that you provide prospective students. Do they commit themselves in writing, or perhaps there a verbal agreement. 

Do you have some way to measure their progress in moral and spiritual development. That would be an interesting test to see. Maybe a question like, "has your training in the dojo made you a more humble person, and how much so?" 



> RyuShiKan said: I have no desire to type out long lengthy explanations for someone whom I have never met.


Now that is an interesting statement. You have made two recent posts on the topic of "Some Okinawan History" as a response to a post, that you seemed to take issue with. The two ran to over 4,900 words. Had you met the person you were replying to? 



> "RyuShiKan said: Just out of curiousity under your primary art it says Godan Shihan, Why."



Again, it would be helpful if you read something before commenting. It clearly says primary art and *RANKING* . The answer to your odd question "why": that is my rank. 

I chose not to indicate the "style" it was awarded in because I have the same belief that Shigeru Nakamura had, at least as described in Bishop's book, where according to his son, he "disliked the thought of karate being divided into separate styles."


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## chufeng (Feb 26, 2003)

I understand the Godan part...fifth dan...

What exactly is a Shihan?

...and I think the idea of ONE karate is just fine...unlike the invented systems we've seen around here.

The whole idea of "systems" developing from older BASE systems is OK...BUT, I think those changes require a really DEEP understanding of the original art...maybe even use the "founder's" model of how his art was developed...BUT, too many NEW arts are springing up everywhere you look...bummer.

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *It would be interesting to know how you vet out the prospective students that don't measure up to your requirement that they seek moral or spiritual development in your dojo. Do you have a questionnaire that you provide prospective students. Do they commit themselves in writing, or perhaps there a verbal agreement. *



I simply ask them what their goals/intentions are for studying a martial art.
Based on their answers I decide if I want them as a student or not. If their goals/intentions are different than what I teach I suggest they look for something more suitable to their needs.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Now that is an interesting statement. You have made two recent posts on the topic of "Some Okinawan History" as a response to a post, that you seemed to take issue with. The two ran to over 4,900 words. Had you met the person you were replying to? *



That post was meant for all people on Martial Talk not one specifically.
The posts were a collection of information I have accumulated over several years and have stored on my computer, a simple cut and paste and its posted.
Funny thing, I posted how many words a certain Zhao Dei Wei wrote and you have just done it to me.




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Again, it would be helpful if you read something before commenting. It clearly says primary art and RANKING . The answer to your odd question "why": that is my rank. *



Getting kind of snippy arent ya
I made no mistake in what I read in your profile and simply asked you:
Just out of curiousity under your primary art it says Godan Shihan. Why?
It said primary *ART* and ranking to which you listed none, and only listed a rank and a title.
Just curious. There was no need to get overly defensive. 





> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *I chose not to indicate the "style" it was awarded in because I have the same belief that Shigeru Nakamura had, at least as described in Bishop's book, where according to his son, he "disliked the thought of karate being divided into separate styles." *



Yes I have read Bishops book..in fact I suggested Zhao Dei Wei read it and bone up on it since he was claiming to be an 8th dan in Pangainoon and didnt know how many kata were in the system.:rofl:
Yet another funny thing, I posted a quote from Bishops Book to a certain Zhao Dei Wei wrote and you have just done it to me.

Curious you would use the User ID Shurite and claim a 5th dan in it, since Zhao Dei Wei claimed to have studied Shurite and and also claimed a 5th dan in it.

Ill ask my original question again since you to neglected to answer it.

What is the purpose for asking these questions about a hypothetical student?
Is it out of morbid curiosity or is there some actual purpose behind it?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I understand the Godan part...fifth dan...
> 
> What exactly is a Shihan? *



Shihan is a title that denotes a teacher.
The grade at which one earns it varies from system to system.

Maybe Shurite can enlighten us and tell us from whom (Teacher and organization) he received his Shihan and 5th dan from.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *SRyuFighter,
> 
> Are you affiliated with Dan Smith? *




Since we are asking for affiliations...............Shurite who are you affiliated with?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> Mike,
> 
> ...



Shurite, 
I would like to ask you the same question.




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> Yilisifu,
> 
> ...



Shurite, 
Again, I would like to ask you the same question.


Please give us some insight into the art you train in.

Where did you learn it?
Or 
Who did you learn it from?
What is the name of your art? 

How many years did it take you to reach black belt and how many to reach 5th dan?

Which kata do you practice?
How many repetitions do you do of each kata?
Is there anything different about you art that is not found in other similar arts?

What are some of the principles associated with your art? (i.e dojo kun or something along those lines)


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *I chose not to indicate the "style" it was awarded in because I have the same belief that Shigeru Nakamura had, at least as described in Bishop's book, where according to his son, he "disliked the thought of karate being divided into separate styles." *



Amusing that you should have that mind set and chose the user ID name Shurite then.
Since the names Shurite, Nahate, and Tomarite are politically motivated and came about around the beginning of the 20th Century as a way to discriminate themselves from each other.
When in actuality the previous name for the indigenous art of Okinawa regardless of which kata were practiced was called Ryukyu Kempo Tode jutsu or more simply called Te.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 27, 2003)

Oh Please!

Don't tell me Shurite and Kuchi bushi are the same guy 

Shurite, if you are on the up and up, please let us know a little more about yourself and who you have trained with and been promoted by. If for no other reason than to clear matters up.
Ryu Shin Kan has asked you some fair questions and all you have to do is give him some straight answers.

Of course, if you are the man from Florida with the over inflated ego and the made up system held together by other peoples ignorance, then this silly attempt to hide yourself really does show you for what you are.

I'll await your reply with interest.

Mike.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 27, 2003)

> RyuShiKan said: Ill ask my original question again since you to neglected to answer it.



Do I sense a touch of snippiness. Naw, couldn't be.  I find this statement interesting coming from someone so selective in what he chooses to answer. This post is an excellent example. You choose to write about all sorts of issues, except of course, the subject of the post (rate of kata introduction and numbers of repetitions.) 

But you have also asked that I provide answers to my own questions regarding rate of kata introduction and the numbers of repetitions practiced. How about a simple deal. We both agree to share this information on this forum? Are you game? No neglecting questions now. 



> RyuShiKan continues: What is the purpose for asking these questions about a hypothetical student? Is it out of morbid curiosity or is there some actual purpose behind it?



In this brief post, you have demonstrated a remarkable facility for misreading. Let's start from the very beginning. The very first sentence of this thread read: "I am trying to better understand some issues regarding how kata is commonly taught and practiced in Okinawan and Japanese systems today."

Some assumptions were followed by two questions. The first asked the rate of introduction of kata. The second asked the total repetitions of kata, on average over time. 

Now apparently this may not be all that obvious to you, but I think there just might be a general consensus that the number of repetitions a given kata is practiced would have a direct relationship on the effectiveness of its use in self defense.   



> RyuShiKan said: Curious you would use the User ID Shurite and claim a 5th dan in it



Do I sense a consistency here? Have I really stated a claim to a 5th dan in Shuri-te? Or perhaps just maybe this is another flight of your fancy?   

Actually, Shuri-te is merely an anonymous web pseudonym. What a concept.  



> RyuShiKan said: There was no need to get overly defensive.



Might you just be projecting your own feelings onto someone that has no such concerns?  You are certainly entitled to misread any implication you want regarding my statements. It goes hand in hand with the misreading of the posts themselves. The terms snippy and defensive often imply some negative feeling. In fact I have none. I am just having some fun.

Shall we go on?


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 27, 2003)

I'm just a tad bit puzzled here. But I still don't think you answered Ryu Shi Kan's question yet. Might have missed it. And in his defense Ryu Shi Kan has always answered any questions that I have asked him and have learned much from him, I have never thought of him as insecure or avoiding questions...


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## Shuri-te (Feb 27, 2003)

> Mike Clarke said: Don't tell me Shurite and Kuchi bushi are the same guy. Shurite.



I have never heard of Kuchi bushi, so I guess I am not him. If someone else has used a web name similar to mine, that was not me either. 



> Mike Clarke said: Shurite, if you are on the up and up, please let us know a little more about yourself.



Mike, It will be up to you to decide for yourself whether I am on the up and up. 

Here is a little about me. I am in my late forties, and have been a martial arts enthusiast for over 30 years. 

I love to practice kata and train on the makiwara. I am fortunate to have a small dojo where I can do this with my students. When I can find good articles and books, I like to read what little history of karate has that has been translated into English. 

I am not a martial arts professional as I have another career. And I have a family, so at this time in my life, these commitments limit the time I can spend in the dojo. 

I don't feel like I have practiced a kata well unless I get up over 25 reps of it. When I don't have any distractions, and get focused and practice a kata 40 or 50 times without a break, I get into the same meditative state I do after a 10 mile run. 

My family tolerates my obsession with kata and have to put up with the dining room table always being pushed up against the wall to make space for practice. My teenage sons have wonderful charicatures of some of my movements to some music I occasionally play. Now I have an mp3 player and headphones so they don't have to listen to my music tastes which harken back to the '70s.

As my pen name might indicate, the kata I teach and practice can be found in several Shorin Ryu systems.



> Mike Clarke said: Please let us know who you have trained with and been promoted by. If for no other reason than to clear matters up.



Mike, it is my opinion that there just might be at least one unnamed poster on this forum that just might take some information I provide regarding my training history, and make an issue of it. So let's just say I find that anonymity is the mother of prevention. 

So despite your reasonable request, I humbly choose to refrain from "clearing matters up".

But if you would like to ask me questions about my thoughts on kata, or training, etc., I would be happy to share some ideas with you.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

Well Shurite's "non-answer" to my questions reeks of Zhao Dei Wei (better known as Kuchi Bushi).


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> Mike, it is my opinion that there just might be at least one unnamed poster on this forum that just might take some information I provide regarding my training history, and make an issue of it. So let's just say I find that anonymity is the mother of prevention. *



Yet another reason I think you are just a little too similar to Zhao Dei Wei a.k.a kuchibushi.
What makes you say that, have I or anyone else ever questioned your linage or style? 




> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> So despite your reasonable request, I humbly choose to refrain from "clearing matters up".
> *



Well if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * I find this statement interesting coming from someone so selective in what he chooses to answer. This post is an excellent example. *



You got a question.fire away.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * Shall we go on? *



Oh by all means lets..that is if you have the stones and integrity enough to provide some simple information.

From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan  certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?

Nobody else seems to have a problem with giving this information except you and your alter ego Zhao Dei Wei aka Kuchibushi


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## Shuri-te (Feb 27, 2003)

> RyuShiKan said:  Please give us some insight into the art you train in.



In response, 



> Shuri-te said: (RyuShiKan) you have asked that I provide answers to my own questions regarding rate of kata introduction and the numbers of repetitions practiced. How about a simple deal. We both agree to share this information on this forum? Are you game? No neglecting questions now..



So, what's the big deal here. Are you really unwilling to share generic training practices in your dojo.

There is a very simple way to do this. We each describe our dojo training of a typical student of ours. Let's pick one around Ikkyu or Shodan, and provide:
1. How many years the student has trained in the dojo. 
2. How many hours the student might practice in the dojo in an average or hypothetical month?
3. How many kata, total, would the student might practice in this average month
4. What was the rate of kata introduction over the years that the student trained in the dojo. 

It would take you but a few moments to provide this information. A small fraction compared to what you have invested in this post to date. 

Once we cover this ground I would be happy to share more information about my background regarding the art I teach and my training habits.  

RyuShiKan, Here is a quote by you. "Ill ask my original question again since you to neglected to answer it."

Ditto my friend. Will you take me up on this simple request to exchange information, or will you take refuge in statements that compare my "non-answers" to someone else's. Statements that are indeed non-answers. 

Silence is golden. but evasive answers, ah, well they are platinum.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * I am trying to better understand some issues regarding how kata is commonly taught and practiced in Okinawan and Japanese systems today. *



Why? 
What specifically is your motivation for wanting this information?
Is it for some research paper or article?

I have asked this question before and you have just skirted around a real answer.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * This student has heard that it often takes approximately 4 years to get to black belt and is expecting to make this investment. Whether the student ever makes it to black belt is not an issue, but for now, all this student is planning is a 4-year investment in the art. *



Why only 4 years?



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * Now let's imagine this student comes to the dojo a reasonable amount for an average student. (You should feel free to define it, but I would say the minimum would be between 3 and 4 hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year).
> 
> If this hypothetical "average" student were to train in your dojo,
> ...



When the student has adequately learned a kata and some of the techniques there in they might move on to the next kata. I don't run a factory with fixed time limit or schedule for teaching kata.
Sometimes I wont teach a new kata for months and only work on technique.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * 2. What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. If the number changes over time, the rate of change would be useful as well. (1st year students - xx number of total kata reps per month, 2nd year students - yy number of total kata reps, etc.)
> Rough estimates would be fine. *



I dont care how many reps they do per month as long as they improve.
Quality not quantity.



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> * Anything else you want to throw in on the subject would be appreciated. *



Alright I think I will
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> There is a very simple way to do this. We each describe our dojo training of a typical student of ours. Let's pick one around Ikkyu or Shodan, and provide:
> 1. How many years the student has trained in the dojo.
> ...



First off you said:
* I am not a martial arts professional as I have another career.*

So are we to conclude you dont have a dojo?
How is this comparison going to be realistic if you are not actually a teacher or dont have a dojo. 

1)6~8 years (as I stated previously)
2)40~50 or more
3)all that he knows. At least 12 empty hand and probably 5 or more kobudo kata
4)previously answered



> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Once we cover this ground I would be happy to share more information about my background regarding the art I teach and my training habits.
> Will you take me up on this simple request to exchange information, or will you take refuge in statements that compare my "non-answers" to someone else's. Statements that are indeed non-answers.
> *



Yet another childish Zhao Dei Wei tactic of  I wont answer your questions until you answer mine

Give me a F-ing break.


Well the 4 questions you just asked have been answered.

And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?


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## Shuri-te (Feb 27, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

Thank you for your response. 

I would be grateful for one simple clarification. 

It is helpful to know that the average student trains in your dojo 40-50 hours per month, and that prior to black belt this student would learn 12 empty hand and 4 kobudo kata, and that it would take 6-8 years to get to Shodan. 

Is there any way that you can estimate that in the 40-50 hours of dojo training in some average hypothetical month, how many total kata would be practiced. This is the core question I have asked from the beginning. The other questions only serve to  clarify it. 

Thank you again.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 27, 2003)

SRyuFighter,

I asked if you knew Dan Smith, and by your response, I gather maybe not. Accept my apologizes if I have misinterpreted. 

I am somewhat familiar with your organization. If you don't know of Dan Smith, I heartily recommend that you learn more about him. On the web site shown on your profile page, (www.seibukan.org) there is a special commentary page with a couple of writings of Kyoshi Smith. (Also on the links page is a link to Burnside Karate Academy in Hattiesburg MS, one of Kyoshi's branch schools.) 

Kyoshi Smith trained under Zenpo's father in Okinawa and has great insight into the art. He has written some wonderful web postings. Go to:

www.americanblackbeltacademy.com/ref-room/articles.htm

His articles and letters here are a great resource that we should all read as we try to better understand the art and its evolution.

Kyoshi Smith is located in Georgia, and has periodic training sessions in Atlanta and elsewhere for his branch dojos.  I am hoping to go to one this summer if I can find the transportation funds. 

BTW, I really like your multiart background as indicated in your profile.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *SRyuFighter,
> 
> I asked if you knew Dan Smith, and by your response, I gather maybe not. Accept my apologizes if I have misinterpreted.
> ...



THank you very much.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 27, 2003)

No I don't know Kyoshi Smith personally. I asked my sensei and he said that he knew him and that we might go to his dojo on the way to Sensei Takae's to train this summer.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 27, 2003)

SRyuFighter said:



> We might go to his dojo on the way to Sensei Takae's to train this summer.



I see that Sensei Takae's dojo is in Tampa. (http://www.zenryo.com/pic4.cfm). Is that far for you?

I have a question for you. Do you practice the Pinan kata passed on from Chozo Nakama to Zenryo Shimabukuro? I understand that Zenpo may have another video under development where he will show these as they are not on his video of the Kyan kata.

It is also great that his performance of Kusanku is on the web. 
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/tc_videos.html


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> Is there any way that you can estimate that in the 40-50 hours of dojo training in some average hypothetical month, how many total kata would be practiced. This is the core question I have asked from the beginning. The other questions only serve to  clarify it.
> Thank you again. *



They would practice all the kata they know every class.

Still no answer to my questions I see.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *SRyuFighter said:
> 
> 
> ...




I live in West Virginia...very far from Sensei Takae's. We go there a few times a year. He also comes to our dojo once or twice a year. And yes we do practice the Pinan kata.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 28, 2003)

Fellow posters and readers of the Martialtalk karate thread. 

Last week I severely injured my shoulder, and need it healthy for a number of upcoming seminars I am attending as well as a demo I and my students are giving to a master who is visiting my dojo. So instead of training, I am resting it and being on the Internet is the thing I find most relaxing. 

BTW - The injury came from one of my shodans doing a movement from the opening of Seipei, against a grab/strike attack from me. In the third/fourth step we initiate a shoulder lock (sinking into shikodachi) and continue with a takedown while stepping forward, that looks like a variation of Shionage found in Aikido and JiuJitsu. 

My shodan is a pretty strong guy and was a bit too enthusiastic the result being an unusable left arm and lots of pain when I lift it, despite the motrin, ice and heat. I find at my age (late forties) my right shoulder always has a nagging pain, probably too much baseball, football and basketball in my youth. Now I expect to have symmetrical discomfort between the two for a number of years. This injury is a bummer. So a I have a word of caution. When you get older, take care of your shoulders, they take forever to heal.

In any event, I appreciate your patience as I navigate the norms of this friendly forum. An unnamed poster has appeared to have taken issue with some things that I have asked, and seems to have some morbid curiosity with my "style" and my training history. So while I recuperate, I will slog on. 

So, again my apologies to all you readers/contributors while said unnamed poster and I dance around the issues raised. I expect that we can have more fruitful exchanges in the future. Thanks to Disco, Mike Clarke, Lilisifu, Chufeng, SryuFighter, GojuBujin for your helpful responses.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Fellow posters and readers of the Martialtalk karate thread.
> 
> Last week I severely injured my shoulder, and need it healthy for a number of upcoming seminars I am attending as well as a demo I and my students are giving to a master who is visiting my dojo. So instead of training, I am resting it and being on the Internet is the thing I find most relaxing.
> ...



Gee doesnt this sound like someone else we know that when asked REPEATEDLY to supply information dances around and tells us about his sick wife, his work problems etc, etc but never answers the question. 

Well the 4 questions you just asked have been answered.

And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?


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## Shuri-te (Feb 28, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

You have taken an interesting approach to my question. I have asked participants in this forum about norms of kata practice in their dojos, trying to better understand numbers of repetitions of kata practiced today in kata-oriented dojos.

There are a variety of options for martialtalk readers. They can choose to:

1. Ignore the question
2. Answer the question
3. Not answer the question using an assortment of non-answers, including evasions, further questions, misrepresentations of what has been said, demands for details of training history and false accusations of who I really am. 

From the typical readers, I speculate an abundance of number 1. And several helpful posters took option 2, for which I am thankful. 

You alone have chosen option 3. Despite your many posts, and your claims that you have answered my initial question, you have yet to provide the answer. 

Shall we try this one more time?

We must return to the initial posting to see that you don't misread the question yet again, because after a dozen of your postings, you still have not yet managed to get it quite right. But practice makes perfect, so here we go. 

The initial post said the following.  

What would be a rough estimate of the *number of total repetitions for all kata,* that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. 

Your post of 11:54 yesterday was a response to a rephrased but not redefined question, where I said, "How many kata total, would a student practice in this average month." Your response: "all that he knows. At least 12 empty hand and probably 5 or more kobudo kata". When counting total repetitions for all kata practiced, this number would appear to translate into perhaps 20 for a month, where your student trains for 40-50 hours. It seemed an odd answer, but I am always happy with progress. Maybe I misjudged you. Maybe you would answer the question after all.   

So I requested clarification, and indeed I give you credit for progress. You have now said:

"They would practice all the kata they know every class."

Now that is certainly an improvement, but I am not sure we are ready to close the book on this just yet. I would be grateful if you would reread the initial question in this post. It states what would be the "total repetitions for all kata".

Just so we are on the same page, let's imagine a green belt in a Shorin Ryu system had learned all the Pinan and Naichanchi kata. And let's imagine this student practices all the kata they know every class. Now follow me here because this might be confusing. If this student practiced each kata he knows one repetition, per class, this would be a total of 8 repetitions. If this student practiced each kata he knows twice each, it would total 16 repetitions per class. Or perhaps the student might be focusing on one kata more than the others. Let's say this student practiced Pinan Godan 10 times and all the others once. That would be a total of 17 repetitions per class. These numbers would be expected to vary from class to class, which is why I asked for a cumulative amount over an "average" month.

In your dojo, your "average" student practices 40-50 hours per month. In order to tally up the total one would need to know how many classes that 40-50 hours in the dojo translates into. We will need your help here. But let me give you an example to work from. Let's say the student practices each of their kata one repetition every class and classes are two hours each. Now a 45 hour month would translate into approx 22 classes, and about 400 kata practiced. However, if all classes were 90 minutes, again with one repetition per kata, per class, then the student would practice over 500 kata. Let's review. Calculate the total number of repetitions per class, on average, (not the total number of kata known, but actual repetitions, all combined), multiply by the number of classes per month, and voila, you wind up with a number (or perhaps a range.) You see how this works.

We have made slow but steady progress. It took you 12 posts to actually provide an answer, but an incorrect one where you listed 20 per month. In your second answer, you have indeed made a clarification, but one that is not helpful at all. Do you think you can get this right on the next post? 

Can you provide the *"number of total repetitions for all kata"* that was indicated on the first post on this thread. It would be really helpful if you would provide an answer with digits in it. (characters 1-0 on the keyboard). No letters are required.

And by the way, I would really appreciate if you could provide a schedule of classes at your dojo. 

Just so you don't think this is one sided.

I teach Monday, Wednesday, 6:00 to 9:00, Saturday, 12:30 -2:00, and a senior student teaches Friday 6:30 to 8:00.

And here's a tidbit. I promoted to Shodan in 1980.

Thanks.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *RyuShiKan,
> 
> You have taken an interesting approach to my question. I have asked participants in this forum about norms of kata practice in their dojos, trying to better understand numbers of repetitions of kata practiced today in kata-oriented dojos.
> ...



Yet more non-answers.


Where did you learn how to answer a direct question???? From an Iraqi weapons official it would seem.

I have answered the 4 questions you asked and very directly.
Your answers have yet to be forth comingso step up to the plate.



And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 28, 2003)

I have an idea. Why don't you all ask one question at a time. Then answer it and submit another question. Then we can all move on from this.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 28, 2003)

Actually Shurite is the one that suggested if answered his questions, which I have, then he would answer mine, which he has yet to do after being asked repeatedly. 
In typical Shurite and his alter ego Zhao Dei Wei fashion he has side stepped the questions and offered information about his personal problems. 
The questions I am asking never seem to bother anyone on this forum except Shurite and his alter ego Zhao Dei Wei.
Does anyone else find that odd?

And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?


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## Shuri-te (Feb 28, 2003)

SRyuFighter,

You are a diplomat at heart, and I appreciate the effort, but I am having a bit too much fun here. Sorry for the long post that follows. 

I hope that those that have felt the sting of RyuShiKan's keyboard take an opportunity to read it, if he hasn't hounded them off the forum. They might just get a good chuckle.


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## Shuri-te (Feb 28, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

You know I took a bit of a chance posting that last one. I thought you just might call my bluff and actually answer, making me look like a boor and you as the poor victim. But deep down, I was pretty confident you would do no such thing.  

How about a different tack. The night is young and we can still dance further. 

So once more into the breach dear friend. 

Your initial non-answer post to this thread indicated you would send a prospective student off to another dojo if they told you they were interested in studying karate for self defense only and not for moral or spiritual development. This despite the obvious possibility that this hypothetical student could be of exemplary moral character. 

Now I really dont expect much in the way of follow up from you, but just in case I have completely misjudged you, I want to try this one last chance to prove I am wrong about you, that you really are a cooperative sharing person. 

So I will try another hypothetical situation, one where you might not chose to send the guy packing, pretty much sight unseen.

You have a prospective student at your dojo. 

Now lets say this student has told you he knows that the study of karate is good for moral and spiritual development and this is an important goal for his desire to train, almost as important as self defense. He has read your dojo kun and has told you that these principles are very important to him and he believes that training in your dojo will help him to achieve those goals. He tells you he really likes to work hard. Finally, your initial impression is that he seems to be of good character. He is mannerly,  courteous and deferential, a gentleman in every way. There doesnt appear to be a hint of the notion that he is coming to you to learn how to hurt other people, and he does not appear to have an attitude that might result in increased risk to other students in your dojo. Just a potential model student.

But before signing up, he has only two things he wants to discuss with you. The first is your requirement of training commitment and the second is a simple question about one aspect of the art you teach. 

He tells you his schedule only permits him to be in the dojo 6 hours each week. He works full time at a job that requires up to 50 hours per week, has a long commute to work and your dojo, and has a busy family life with children. And he also is a part time student working finishing up a college degree that has eluded him for all too long. Each week, he can make it to the dojo two or three times, but that is all. That might translate into 2 hours three times per week or some other combination. But he tells you he has great consistency in everything he does. He will absolutely be there every week, allowing a maximum 2 weeks per year for illness and personal emergencies. So he has a commitment of 6 hours, 50 weeks per year. He plans on training with you for at least four years. 

The first thing he needs to know is if his commitment to 300 hours in the dojo per year meets your minimum requirement. If you tell him it doesnt then that is the end of it and he thanks you for your time and leaves.  

However, if you agree that his 300 hours per year in the dojo would be sufficient, he has one question for you, but first needs to give you a little background.

He tells you that he has a solid background in the art having trained many years in several Okinawan systems and knows that kata is an important element of training. Since his primary goal is to learn self-defense, and not sport, he wants to continue to study Okinawan karate, rather than at the many Japanese karate alternatives in your area. 

He believes there is great value in the practice of kata, especially from a moral and spiritual development perspective. 

After having said all that, this prospective student asks you a simple question. In his 25 hours per month in the dojo, how many total repetitions of kata, on average, would be the norm that he would practice. He is about to commit to an investment of over 1000 hours of his life to hard work in your dojo, and wants to know if he by choosing your dojo, he will be headed in the right direction. 

You have several choices. 

Option 1 - You could tell him a lie or exaggeration deliberately inflating the number because you know that is what he wants to hear. But that would not be in character with your dojo kun, so lets make the assumption that is not an option. 

Option 2 - You could give him an honest answer. Perhaps you may have never really considered the issue before, so you have to think a bit. After a minute or two you figure out an estimated range. (e.g. some months as few as xx and some months as many as yy.) and share it with him. This could include a qualification that there are many factors that effect the degree of variation from month-to-month such as which classes he attends, etc.  

Or perhaps you might have a ready answer. Maybe you have grappled with the ever-present challenge of how to include enough regular kata practice when there is so much else to do in the way of drilling, application, conditioning, kumite, kobudo, and whatever else makes up your curriculum.

Option 3 - You can choose not to give him an answer. This can come in the form of a blanket refusal. Or it could take the form of a remarkable variety of non-answers which include *evasions, further questions, misrepresentations, accusations, obfuscations and personal attacks.* 

For instance, you could begin with the basic *evasion.* Perhaps an attempt to convince him that this number is not meaningful is a good start. Try telling him that it is quality not quantity that is important. You could also tell him that it would be too hard a number to calculate, or varies so much from month to month that it would be a meaningless number. 

Then there is the handy *"question answer"*. For example, you might reply Why do you want to know? or What is this morbid curiosity you have with this issue? or perhaps the vague pass Is this for some research you are doing? 

And there are plenty of variations to consider when using the  *question answer.* You can demand that this person provide assorted information about himself such as who he trained with, how long it took him to get to Shodan, and the name of the person who promoted him to his current rank.

Moving up the ladder, the next trusty option is to *misrepresent* what he has told you. This is easily done. Take something out of context, or insist he said something he hadnt. This strategy is rich with potential. Perhaps he mentioned the term Shuri-te in another context, opening the way for you to state he is claiming rank in it. Or perhaps he said "I am fortunate to have a small dojo... I am not a martial arts professional." That would give you the opportunity to respond "You say you are not a martial arts professional...So are we to conclude you dont have a dojo?" 

Now just imagine that this person felt, for some completely unfounded reason that there just might be some value in anonymity. (Perhaps he had a totally bizarre hunch that you just might be a person who might take issue with anything he might say about himself. Who knows?) Then it might be a good opportunity to use the tried and true out-of-left-field *accusation* strategy to truly bewilder him. 

Heres one way it can work. Just accuse him of being someone he isnt with a statement like. Something you just did reminds me of something somebody else once did, ergo, you must be him. (This could be along the lines of say, a word count by someone falsely claiming rank in Uechi Ryu. Or better yet, you can make the connection that since you had recommended Bishop's standard text to this Uechi Ryu masquarader,  and your prospective student quoted from that text, well then of course this would be conclusive proof they are one and the same) Once this accusation is launched they key thing is to nurture it. It is best to repeat it like a mantra. It is well know in psychology, that if you say something (or perhaps type it) over and over, you begin to believe it regardless of its merits.

If this guy is still resistant, it might be time to roll out possibly the most effective option: *obfuscation.* Bear with me as I describe this convoluted, but ingenious approach. It starts as a follow-up to one of your earlier responses. (it must be a non-answer question) Now it doesnt have to be the first non-answer question such as why do you care. It could very well be a later question, or better yet, a barrage of questions really can get the job done. Here are a number of good candidates: "What is your style?" "Who awarded your rank? "What kata do you practice?" "When did you earn your Shodan?" Now the lynchpin. To make this work you simply refuse to answer the persons initial question until your follow-up question is answered. 

If he declines, and asks why you wont answer his simple question regarding kata repetition, without him having to reveal his background, you now have an opening to get him totally bewildered. You of course know that although it was you who began the whole process of the non-answer response, you can now act as if it were really you who asked the first question that went unanswered. Ergo, he, not you, is at fault for being so uncooperative. An important component of this approach is the repeated claim that you have answered his question, even though all of your answers are just cleverly crafted non-answers. That ensures that you look like you are doing everything possible to answer his question while he refrains from not answering yours. 

But it takes a careful effort to fully exploit the full obfuscation strategy. To take it to the final step, the best tactic is to blame this person for requiring you to answer a question when he has avoided answering yours. And if you phrase it just right, you can sound like a poor victim of his determined pettiness and stubbornness. The brilliance of this approach is in its byzantine complexity. Who can ever really figure out who asked what first. Kind of like two kids each saying the other started it. 

If all else fails, you just may have to resort to the *personal attack* strategy. When you find that other methods arent getting this guy to give in, a generous dose of derision can sometimes work wonders. You can ask him if he has the stones and integrity to back up something he said or claims, all the while you repeat your mantra that he is not really who he says he is, and wont answer your questions about his personal training. Again, the key is to paint yourself as the victim of his deliberate unfairness. Anyone watching might wonder why this guy is being so darn mean to you. 

Ah, the elegant majesty of the well-crafted twisting of anothers words. The keyboard is certainly mightier than the katana.  

Shall we choose option 2. Will you answer the question of the first post? What do you have to lose? 

A number, a number, my background for a number. 

Or shall we dance on? I got some great reggae going, a cold Guinness. The night is young, my shoulder resting, and my fingers nimble.

btw- I mostly practice kata from the families of Pinan, Bassai, Kusanku and Chinto, and teach a subset of those. But I have a passing familiarity with quite a few more. 

How about that dojo schedule of yours? I am sure you could whip it off in just a few moments.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 28, 2003)

Well that was a long diatribe full of crap.....I see you still don't have the stones to answer the questions I asked .

And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?


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## Cthulhu (Feb 28, 2003)

Mod. Note

Keep the discussion polite and friendly or take it elsewhere.

There will be no other warnings.

Cthulhu

-MT Admin.-


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Again, the key is to paint yourself as the victim of his deliberate unfairness. Anyone watching might wonder why this guy is being so darn mean to you.
> *



I dont think you are being mean at allpurposely deceptive yes but not mean.
Nobody sees me as a victim I am sure. 

As for answering anymore of your questions I will keep you to your end of the bargain, that you insisted upon I might add, and wait for your answers to the questions I asked.
So you can answer the simple questions I have asked or you can keep playing your childish game.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Mod. Note
> 
> Keep the discussion polite and friendly or take it elsewhere.
> ...




Fair enough.

Can you tell me which part of these questions is considered impolite?


From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?


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## arnisador (Feb 28, 2003)

We ask that everyone keep the _tone_ of the discussion polite and friendly.

Much of this discussion could be taken offline to e-mail or PM as it seems to only interest two members.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## RyuShiKan (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *We ask that everyone keep the tone of the discussion polite and friendly.*



Yes I can see my _tone_ was the only one that was out of line.........



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Much of this discussion could be taken offline to e-mail or PM as it seems to only interest two members.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *




I have emailed shurite twice asking for this information.
I have not received a reply.


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## D.Cobb (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *RyuShiKan,
> 
> You know I took a bit of a chance posting that last one. I thought you just might call my bluff and actually answer, making me look like a boor  *



Shuri-who? You don't need RyuShiKan's help in this regard.
He has answered your questions, why don't you return the courtesy?
Most of us are here to learn or exchange information, you seem to have left that idea behind, as soon as RyuShiKan, stepped up and answered your questions(or at least some of them), and now refer to this all as a dance.
If, as you seem to be, you are one of these guys who just get off on pushing other peoples buttons, might I suggest that you go and play these silly games on rec-martial arts forum.

Otherwise just answer the bloody question!

--Dave


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## Mike Clarke (Mar 1, 2003)

Shurite,

I was interested in your post regarding your injury.
In it you said you did it training in the bunkai from the kata Seipei.
This kata is from the Naha-te tradition is it not?  And I was wondering how come you practise it if you train in Shuri-te?

The 'feeling' found in the kata from each of these traditions is very different, as are the fighting stategies encoded in the kata.
Do you train in many Naha-te kata then? And if so,  where do they fit in with teaching the concepts put forward by the Shuri-te tradition? Off hand I can't think of an Okinawan Shuri-te school that teaches Naha-te kata?

It would be helpful to know which branch of Shuri-te you train in also, as that way I'll be able to get a better undestanding of your approach to karate.

Mike.


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

On my post of 11:14 on 2/27, I stated the following: 



> But you have also asked that I provide answers to my own questions regarding rate of kata introduction and the numbers of repetitions practiced. How about a simple deal? We both agree to share this information on this forum? Are you game? No neglecting questions now.



You have made 12 posts since then, and despite your many protestations otherwise, you have not fulfilled the terms of the offer. 

I was remiss in my original offer, and for that you have my apologies. It should have read:



> "Shuri-te agrees to provide RyuShiKan with the information he has requested (specifically the person that promoted Shuri-te to Godan, Shihan, and the style in which the rank was eaned) pending the satisfactory completion of the conditions of this offer. In addition, Shuri-te will also provide the names of the kata he teaches and practices. This offer requires that RyuShiKan provide, in advance, a satisfactory answer to the questions as stated in the first post on this thread. Regarding the total repetition of kata practiced in the dojo in a month, the answer must include a number with digits, and be accurate. Shuri-te is granted complete authority to make the determination whether the answer is given in good faith, and reflects a reasonable approximation of the number of repetitions of kata practiced in RyuShiKan's dojo by an "average" student. This offer is for a limited time only. RyuShiKan must provide this answer within his  next 12 posts total if he is to satisfy terms and conditions of this offer. If RyuShiKan is unable to satisfy this request within his next 12 sequential posts to this thread, this offer will become null and void. Local, state, federal and international restrictions may apply."



You see, I did not clearly say that any old answer would suffice. I actually required a good faith answer. (What a concept) And I am sorry to inform you that your answer "all of them" did not meet the bar. I specifically requested a number, and you have specifically chosen not to provide one. So this offer is hereby withdrawn.

Here is a question for you. Have you ever once experienced even the slightest hint of cognitive dissonance, when you consider your whole approach to this thread, in light of the dojo kun you require your students to buy into before studying with you. I am specifically referring to the following three statements.  
  -Work very hard to perfect or complete human character
  -Protect the way of honesty or sincerity 
  -Value or respect etiquette or manners 

After reading your many posts to this thread (and others where you have browbeaten other posters), I can only imagine that the dojo kun must be for your students only, or perhaps it applies to you in the dojo only. And this harkens back to an earlier question I had for you. Just how do you teach these elements in you dojo. Some lead by example. 

I guess you may just be one of those remarkable people that can check your "etiquette, manners, honesty and sincerity" when you leave the dojo and not worry yourself about the need to "perfect the human character" until you return. There are some people that can turn manners, honesty, etiquette and sincerity, off and on like a light switch. It as my experience that those that truly strive to be of good character strive to be far more consistent. Blind repetitions of dojo kun, doesn't make one of good character.   

The old masters thought that the endless repetition of kata was something that helped develop one's character. Maybe you need to up the reps in you class my friend. 

RyuShiKan, I take fundamental issue with your earlier post that when it comes to kata it is quality not quantity. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I too am entitled to tell you that you may be very much mistaken. The key, you see, is quality AND quantity. You do every repetition to the best of your ability, and you do many, many, many repetitions. You and your students just might be surprised at the benefits. 

Regarding what I teach, it is a blend of the many arts I have been exposed to over my 30 years in the arts. One current term that might approximate what I teach is MMA. But many MMA systems tend not have a foundation of kata whereas my system is completely kata-based. 

Kata, by the way, as practiced by a variety of karateka in a branch of Okinawan karate that has been referred to as "Shuri-te" by a number of distinguished authorities, who have written about the art after the term came into use. And RyuShiKan, you should be well aware, as well-versed as you are in the history of the art, that the written historical record regarding karate, prior to the coining of the term Shuri-te, is woefully deficient. Therefore, when more modern historians chose to use the term Shuri-te, it became a commonly used way to describe a branch of the art. 

Let's tally up the record. You requested I provide you some information and I have obliged. I have given you information about the kata I practice, the year I was promoted to Shodan, and the fact that what I teach cannot be described as a "style", because what I teach differs significantly  from every system I have been exposed to. I also gave you the hours that my dojo is in session.

I asked you for a number, you have not provided one. And you have ignored my request for your dojo schedule. 

Regarding the "style" that I was awarded my rank in, and the master that promoted me, I choose to remain blissfully anonymous.

RyuShiKan, this has been great fun. But it might be a good time to move on. What are your thoughts?


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## Mike Clarke (Mar 1, 2003)

Shurite,

I've just read your last post to Ryu Shin Kan and you'll have to forgive my ignorance but what is MMA ?

Not living in America I'm not privy to the local terminology you are using. Also, I have to say that for a guy my age who says he's been training as long as I have, your reluctance to disclose who you have trained and been tested by in Shuri-te karate only serves to make you look silly. If you took a poll today, I think you would find this to be the case. 

Why you choose to 'dance' [as you put it] like this is a sign of immaturity, and I can't see what you gain from it if you wish people on this forum to have any respect for the things you have to say.

At the risk of recieving a very long [and unwanted] reply, can I ask you a simple question in the hope of getting a honest answer back from you?

"Have you ever posted on this forum under the name Zhao Dei 
Wei?"

Just a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do thanks.

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Shuri-who? You don't need RyuShiKan's help in this regard.
> He has answered your questions, why don't you return the courtesy?
> Most of us are here to learn or exchange information, you seem to have left that idea behind, as soon as RyuShiKan, stepped up and answered your questions(or at least some of them), and now refer to this all as a dance.
> ...




Actually he doesnt need to bother answering any of the questions I have asked.

The only reason why I asked about his dan rank, style and teacher was because on his user profile under Primary art and rank it said 5th dan  shihan.
I thought it was kind of odd and just asked for clarification.
It is obvious shurite has some issue with divulging this information since he is so reluctant to do so.
At this point I dont really care what he studies or where he got rank from since he has already demonstrated what kind of person he is.


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

Thank you.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

ShuriTe,

You, sir, are the one refusing to answer questions...
You are the evasive one...
I think everyone on this thread is getting tired of it...
I know I am...hence this will be my last post on this thread.

But RyuShiKan did NOT ask when you got promoted to shodan...
He asked, WHO promoted you to godan? and WHO awarded you the title of shihan?

I don't think it's reasonable to ask someone to post a dojo training schedule...given that you've not even answered two simple questions.
At first I thought you might be looking for some ideas about how other schools run class; but now, I think you are "fencing" for the fun of it and the time those of us, who answered your questions, spent answering your questions was wasted...

Given the way this thread has gone, it is extremely unlikely that I'll consider future questions from you worth answering...

But I'm just one small voice...

Good Day,
:asian:
chufeng


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

Mike

I have to apologize right up front. I started this long post to you this morning. I had two purposes. First was to give you some information regarding what I do. But also provide readers some small hint that  I am not some newbie imposter, as accused by RyuShiKan, but a long time and dedicated student of the art. So I made this long post in Word and when I went back to add it, I saw another post by you where you indicated long replies might not be welcome. So here are my apologies right up front. My reasons for not revealing my art are complex and much relates to the complexity of what we call Shuri-te, so here my goes.



> Mike Clark said you said you did it training in the bunkai from the kata Seipei.
> 
> This kata is from the Naha-te tradition is it not? And I was wondering how come you practise it if you train in Shuri-te?
> 
> ...




Glad you caught that one. I was waiting for someone to ask. My students and I are doing a demo for a visiting master. We each do bunkai from different kata. Therefore students of mine will do bunkai from the Pinans, Kusanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Naihanchi. My shodan studied some Naha te kata earlier, so we will include Seipei. Actually, I myself am going to do some bunkai from Kururunfa, if my shoulder survives some seminars I want to attend prior. I have twenty students, myself included, that will participate. Each of us does a Han, something practiced in Iha's Shidokan, a branch of Kobayashi that I have studied. Four students surround the defender, and launch a variety of attacks. Each student does a unique combination, all including some kind of takedown. The fourth defensive combination ends with a control technique of a lock or choke. Since we are all doing unique techniques, that comes to 80 combinations, all with takedowns. 

One of my students will be doing Pinan Godan movements against a bo. Did you know there are really cool bo disarming techniques in Pinan Godan.  

Regarding my reluctance to be pinned down on a style, it would be helpful if I ramble a bit regarding the evolution of Shuri-te. I could organize this better but after typing for a bit longer than I should have in an effort to quiet down RyuShiKan, I am a bit tired. I rolled onto my shoulder at 4:30 am and have been up since. 

For those like you in Goju ryu, it is important to understand that when compared with those of Naha-te, these Shorin Ryu "styles" have enormous variability. A hundred years ago, there well may have been a number of masters that may have been known as Naha-te teachers. But today we think pretty much of Higaonna and Miyagi, and therefore, it was unified much more recently. Even in name it is the same. All Miyagi's students that teach his system call it Goju-ryu. But it is not the name that is important. The really significant thing is that from system to system, the kata are all so similar, at least when compared to Shuri-te. (There are of course, masters that studied with Miyagi that teach other systems, such as Mabuni and Tatsuo Shimabuku.)

This is not the case with Shuri-te. 100 years ago there were many masters whose influence pervades the art, and as such, there is great variability between the various systems. In some ways I consider myself a student of "Shorin-Ryu" systems, as I have familiarity with many of the kata of most of the more prevalent systems. The reason I don't like the term Shorin Ryu, is that it tends to exclude mainline branches in Japan. Toyama, Mabuni and Funakoshi all trained under Itosu. But the arts of these masters are considered Japanese. And both Toyama and Mabuni learned Naha-te kata from Higaonno, and this also tends to make people further exclude them when they think of "Shorin Ryu" branches. But Toyama's kata, at least as practiced in Shudokan and Koeikan, and Mabuni's kata all have great similarity to the kata practiced by Chibana's students. Only Funakoshi decided to make the stances longer in his kata. 

Typically, when we refer to Shorin Ryu, we refer to the systems that have come down from Kyan, Itosu and Hohan Soken. If we look at Itosu's major systems, we have Chibana's Kobayashi, and Nakamura's Okinawan Kempo on Okinawa, and we have systems coming from Funakoshi, Mabuni and Toyama in Japan. If you look at a total count of students, the vast number of students studying in systems that evolve from Itosu, they are in systems we call Japanese karate, not Shorin Ryu. It is my opinion that the term Shuri-te better captures the breadth of Itosu systems, including those in Japan. 

It is when we look at the kata of the systems that have evolved from Kyan, Itosu, and Soken that we really see some major differences, but we still call them all Shorin Ryu. (Of course two students of Kyan, Tatsuo Shimabuku and Joen Nakazato chose not to keep the term Shorin Ryu for their systems. But Zenryo Shimabukuro, Eizo Shimabuku and Shoshin Nagamine all kept the Shorin Ryu name, as did Chibana and Hohan Soken.)  

The first difference in kata regards the practice of the Pinans. In the Shorin Ryu systems that descend from Kyan, both Nakazato's and Tatsuo Shimabuku's don't teach the Pinans (as Kyan did not teach them.) But the others do. (In my opinion, that would be like some Goju Ryu schools not teaching Sanchin.) Obviously they are done in Zenryo Shimabukuro's Seibukan. He learned them from Nakama And Eizo Shimabuku included them is his Shobayashi as he learned them from Chibana. 

And Nagamine has them in Matsubayashi but you have to use a process of deduction to see where they came from. In "The Essence of Okinawan Karate" he states he learned kata from Kyan, Motobu and Arakaki. We know that Motobu and Kyan were almost certainly not the source. As Nagamine states that Arakaki studied with Gusukumu, Hanashiro and Chibana, (all students of Itosu.) we can assume one or more of them might have been the source. 

Regarding the Pinans, those practiced by Soken's Matsumura Seito have some major differences, compared to those handed down through mainline Itosu systems. Bishop reveals the various discrepancies regarding the source of Soken's kata where he states that in an interview Soken told him he learned Pinan Shodan an Nidan from his uncle, Nabe Matsumura, who is reported to have learned all his kata from his grandfather the great Bushi Matsumura. So the origin of Soken's Pinan is a question that may never be resolved. 

While there are some differences in the approach of the various Shorin Ryu systems to the Pinan, fortunately they all have the common thread of Naihanchi. But when you get beyond those two families, the differences are really great. Although there are commonalities between the kata of Itosu and Kyan, there are far more differences. The two versions of Chinto kata probably have the greatest differences, and it is arguable that Bassai could be next in degree of difference. And both Kusanku and Gojushiho have perhaps as many differences as similarities. On top of that Itosu systems differ from Kyan's in that they have Jion, Kusanku Sho, Matsumura Bassai and Bassai Sho (as it is called in Shotokan and Shito Ryu).

This is not meant to be a complete catalogue of differences, just a splash to show the great variation. 

It is my opinion that the enormous variation of the way kata is practiced across Shorin Ryu or Shuri-te styles makes it hard to categorize them as a common system. I train in a number of these systems, and the focus I have in trying to understanding the range of kata and application in these many systems makes me reluctant to pigeonhole my study and teaching into what I consider an increasingly obselete notion of "style". My "style" is unique, because it comes from own experiences and training in grappling arts, as well as Okinawan systems. I integrate it all into a package I practice and teach to my students. 

I have been fortunate to have be exposed over the years to good bunkai for a lot of the kata, and have shared it freely in dojos of a number of different "styles" or systems. In fact, I find bunkai to be the great bridge between the various systems. Usually you have to make some small modification anyway to a movement in the kata to make any particular application work, so if different systems have to make slightly different alterations, what's the difference.

Although my focus is almost completely on "Shuri-te" systems, I have trained with several Goju schools and know all the kata. And I have some great bunkai for some of them. In Kururunfa, are you aware of a wrist lock after you break away from the full nelson? Are you aware of a leg lock after the movement initiated after you bend forward to the ground with both feet together? 

Let me know if you would like me to share some ideas on application with you. And please let me know if this post was too long and unwelcome. I find the information fascinating, and I imagine there just might be a Shorin Ryu person out there that might benefit from it.


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

Mike Clarke,

In response to your most recent message. 

You asked about MMA. It is mixed martial arts. The are many who believe that grappling arts are deficient in striking and striking arts are deficient in grappling and MMA is an approach to training that includes both. It is not uncommon to combine Muay Thai with some form of submission wrestling, such as shoot fighting, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the like. I am just beginning to incorporate ground work for my students. But I do an abundance of locking and throwing and so the art I teach has an abundance of grappling commonly found in Aikido and JiuJitsu.



> Mike Clarke said: Not living in America I'm not privy to the local terminology you are using. Also, I have to say that for a guy my age who says he's been training as long as I have, your reluctance to disclose who you have trained and been tested by in Shuri-te karate only serves to make you look silly. If you took a poll today, I think you would find this to be the case.



You are entitled to your opinion. But do please note that you can review this thread and will find I have never claimed to have been tested in Shuri-te. That was an unfounded claim made by RyuShiKan. Shuri-te is merely the name I use to post here. 

I am not averse to sharing this information with virtually anyone. However, I have felt it in my best interest to trust RyuShiKan with very little personal information about me. I think he uses personal information for personal attacks, whenever it pleases him. I would be happy to share my background with you via email.



> Mike Clarke said: Why you choose to 'dance' [as you put it] like this is a sign of immaturity, and I can't see what you gain from it if you wish people on this forum to have any respect for the things you have to say.



I chose to respond to RyuShiKan in kind. Instead of an exchange of ideas, we danced around the subject at great length. I am familiar with his tactics on this "friendly" forum of martialtalk.com and I do not like the way he has treated people he disagrees with. If you think I am being unfair, see if I am alone. Pose him a direct question on this forum, and then see if he provides a "satisfactory" answer. Ask him to provide, on this forum, the total number of times, across all threads, from the time he has begun posting, that moderators of Martialtalk have given him warnings that his postings were not in the spirit of a "friendly" discussion. If you get a satisfactory answer, I will commit to making you a film, cut it to mpeg on CD, and ship it to you in Australia, free of chare. It will include 25 bunkai from Naha-te kata, all with takedowns. Would that be a fair exchange? For your benefit, I have great confidence that you will never have seen any of these interpretations before. 



> At the risk of recieving a very long [and unwanted] reply, can I ask you a simple question in the hope of getting a honest answer back from you? "Have you ever posted on this forum under the name Zhao Dei Wei?"



No, I have never heard of him prior to RyuShiKan's flight of fancy.

Perhaps you can help me on this. On what thread(s) has this notorious person contributed. I would be very interested in reading his writings. You know we all have a writing style, in which we reveal a lot about ourselves. Perhaps you can tell of my Irish heritage because I love to argue at great length, when I think it is called for. My guess is he writes very differently from me and a quick comparison of our writings would settle the matter. I also think you can be the judge from my post on Shorin Ryu whether I am some newbie imposter.

And let me know if this met your standard of long, lengthy and unwanted. I like to answer questions with good information, and hoped to provide that here, but if is unwanted, I shall refrain from doing so in the future


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

Chufeng,

For those of you that like RyuShiKan, and enjoy communicating with him, I apologize for these long posts. 

However, RyuShiKan supporters are not the only readers of this forum. There are many who have born the brunt of his scathing comments. 

I wrote these in part for those folks, at least those that have not yet given up being insulted by him and abandoned martialtalk for a truly "friendly" forum. 

Again, I apologize for the inconvenience to you, and I am hopeful that RyuShiKan will take the message from my long-winded replies that I would be extremely grateful if he simply ignored my posts. 

I would like to point out some issues. 


> Chufeng wrote: RyuShiKan did NOT ask when you got promoted to shodan. He asked, WHO promoted you to godan? and WHO awarded you the title of shihan?


To set the record straight, On 2/27 at 6:49, RyuShiKan wrote:


> Please give us some insight into your art.
> - Where did you learn it? Or Who did you learn it from?
> - What is the name of your art?
> -How many years did it take you to reach black belt and how many to reach 5th dan?
> ...


A barrage of non-answer questions, typical of your friend RyuShiKan.

You claim that I am the one refusing to answer questions, and that is your opinion and I can't change it. But perhaps you could share with me why RyuShiKan required any information from me at all. I never asked him to provide me with an answer to the first question until after he began continually accusing me of being someone I am not. So I thought a fair trade would be in order. Let him answer the initial post and then I would provide it. 

I have difficulty in seeing the evasiveness of that. 

And I apologize for not answering a question you posted earlier. I started to gather some info for you on the web because I wanted to correct RyuShiKan's misinformation. I would be curious where he has found the definition of Shihan equivalent to that of teacher. 

So here are several links turned up from a google search. The first three define Shihan as master teacher. The fourth, master instructor or teacher of teachers. In general usage it is usually just defined as master. 

http://www.collectivesociety.com/national/jan2k.pdf
http://www.westnet.com.au/c.e.crampton/Grading.htm
http://www.unitedkosho.com/serv01.htm
http://www.shotokan-karate.freeservers.com/terminology.htm


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## arnisador (Mar 1, 2003)

Note that we now have a MMA forum on MartialTalk.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## GojuBujin (Mar 1, 2003)

Great googly moogly......this is almost as much "fun" as what i had on the jujutsu forum a few months back....

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai


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## SRyuFighter (Mar 1, 2003)

Reminds me a tad bit of a soap opera.


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

Fellow posters.

I have updated my profile for all to see. I believe that RyuShiKan now may recognize that he may have been in error to accuse me of being Zhao Dei Wei.

But I had participated in this forum some time ago under the web name "SenseiMike".

RyuShiKan took many opportunities to belittle me web moniker, my training, and my discussion of bunkai. I got frustrated with his barbs and bowed off. 

However, I did want to see if this forum would be helpful in my research into the way kata is practiced today, as well as in years past.  

Before coming back on, I read a few posts from over the past few months and noticed RyuShiKan was still the same flamer he had been in the past, still receiving warnings from the moderaters reminding him that this was a "friendly" forum.

So I apologize for having some fun at your expense (having to read my long posts).

It would be my great hope that RyuShiKan would avoid my posts altogether. I will strive to have the fortitude to ignore has replies.

BTW, if anyone doubts my rank, I can send you a jpg of my menjo. 

-Mike Eschenbrenner - aka Shuri-te
 Sensei - Cornell Karate Dojo


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## A.R.K. (Mar 1, 2003)

Well let me step in here with some input....



> I have updated my profile for all to see. I believe that RyuShiKan now may recognize that he may have been in error to accuse me of being Zhao Dei Wei.



First off, 'he MAY be in error'???   NO, he was in error.  You and I are NOT the same person!  The moderator/administrator can easily check and verify this.  

I don't appreciate Ryu suggesting it nor do I appreciate your perpetuating it. I understand your reasons as Ryu has no IPC skills but don't drag me into it.  

Nuff said.


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

zhao,

Ryu Shi Kan admits he made a mistake on this...
ShuriTe only posted to deceive, so whatever he says beyond this post is suspect...

On behalf of RyuShiKan, I apologize...

Hopefully, we can all get along in the future.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Mar 1, 2003)

> Hopefully, we can all get along in the future



That would be a wonderful thing.  Even a quick glance at this website will reveal there is quite an offering of 'martial arts'.  Although it would be asking alot for everyone to agree on everything I think that disagreements could be posted in a much more tactful way.  And I include myself in this!

We all have much to share.  Anyway take care.


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## Shuri-te (Mar 1, 2003)

Chu feng,

You have accused me of only posting to deceive. Actually, I only began posting to better understand how kata is practiced in kata-oriented dojos today.  

I would be grateful if you would point out any statement that I made that was a deception. I, and many people on the web, do not equate anonymity with deception, especially when it protects oneself from personal attack, an activity RyuShiKan has engaged in great frequency towards me on this thread, as he has done in the past under a previous name I used. 

I have an additional request. You have informed us that RyuShiKan has apologized. I have reread his postings and I am unable to locate it. Would you point it out to me?

Thank you for any efforts in response.

Mike Eschenbrenner


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## chufeng (Mar 1, 2003)

ShuriTe,



> You have informed us that RyuShiKan has apologized. I have reread his postings and I am unable to locate it. Would you point it out to me?



NO...

:asian:
chufeng


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## SRyuFighter (Mar 1, 2003)

Hahaha


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## Matt Stone (Mar 1, 2003)

What does the original question really mean, anyway?

What relevance does the number of repetitions of one or more forms have to do with anything?

Practice all you know, as many times as you can.  There.  That's how many and how much in a nutshell.

You can't measure development or understanding by the numbers of reps put in.  If so, then there would exist an easily replicated formula of mastery.

Time to move on to something worth while...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Mike Clarke (Mar 2, 2003)

Shurite, or whatever your calling yourself these days?????


I'm no longer interested in ANYTHING you have to say under any name you wish to say it.

Mike Clarke.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 2, 2003)

Got this in email from him today...



> This is from my 6thkyu student that hasn't trained for about 5 years.  He met Mike last time he posted.
> 
> "I did meet Mike Eischenbrenner and a class. He doesn't adhere to any style in particular but takes bits and pieces from here and
> there to suit his lessons. He does seem to borrow heavily from Taika's Oyata's method though."



Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## vin2k0 (Apr 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *1. What would be the rate of introduction of kata. (A new kata introduced, on average, every xx months.)
> 
> 2. What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. If the number changes over time, the rate of change would be useful as well. (1st year students - xx number of total kata reps per month, 2nd year students - yy number of total kata reps, etc.) *



1. A new kata should be introduced approx. every 4 months, providing the student has attended enough lessons, and has passed the periodic grading.

2. Kata can never be practised enough... the whole kata should be broken down, movement by movement. At times my sensei would go through just one or two movements of a whole kata and spend a whole lesson perfecting each technique and understanding it fully. There is no amount of time you should stick to when practising kata. Do as much as you can, without focusing upon it more than each other section. Do not put on the 'blinkers' and concentrate too heavily on kata while everything else falls by the waistside.

Why do you ask such? are you interested in becoming an instructor? If so, then no offense meant, but you are not ready. If not and you are simpley curious then i apologise  :asian:


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 4, 2003)

vin2ko,

The guy you're addressing your comments to was kicked off MT for a while because he was [is] a  10th dan jerk.
A living legend in his own bathtub, and the kind of person who gives karate a bad name.
Things happened a few months back before you signed up so I don't expect you to know about him. He had two I.D.s  going at the same time and caused nothing but trouble for some of the more respected members.
I have no doubts he'll be back as he loves the sound of his own voice [even though he often hides behind multipul names].
He may well be reading this and plotting my down-fall?

Anyway, just a word to the wise 

Mike.


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## lucifersdad (Apr 23, 2003)

i agree with vin2ko,

when i take students through the grades me usually say 6 months between grades and thats the time taken to learn, practice and polish a kata.
obviously not all students pick kata up that quickly so wait and practice more were as some students learn a kata in one lesson( very rare though) and spend the time practicing it nad learning other stuff.

as for how much a kata is to be practiced, we mark students on the kata for the belt they are grading for, the kata for their previous grade and sometimes anyother kata chosen at random, so we try to get students to run through all the kata they know each lesson, at leaqst once for previous kata and depending on time/lesson plans maybe 5/6+ times for the kata they are learning.
but it does all depend on your time constraints, number of students, number of differant grades, number of assistant instructors etc. etc.......


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## vin2k0 (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *vin2ko,
> 
> The guy you're addressing your comments to was kicked off MT for a while because he was [is] a  10th dan jerk.
> ...



Ok, sorry, i wasn't aware. Nor was i aware of how much of a complete idiot he was. I didn't read all the posts before replying, simply read his original question and responded. Well, have to say im glag he's banned. Thanks, vin. :asian:


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