# Anti-semitism on the Right



## hardheadjarhead (Oct 11, 2004)

Amazing.

While doing a little research on the highly conservative John Birch Society (which once claimed Dwight Eisenhower was a communist sympathizer), I found this site...

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/NetLoss/NetLoss-Oliver.html

The guy is an anti-semite right winger who claims the Birchers were controlled by Jews.  So it is right wing nut job versus right wing nutjobs.  I found this to be somewhat entertaining...disturbing, but entertaining.

Anybody want to discuss anti-semitism in America?


Regards,


Steve


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 11, 2004)

I thought I'd post this apart from the first one:

http://www.creator.org/index.html

The "World Church of the Creator" is not the "Creativity Movement".  

On July 4, 1999 Benjamin Smith, a member of the movement, went on a multi-state shooting spree, killing Won Joon Yoon here in my hometown of Bloomington.  I missed witnessing the shooting by a few moments, and was detoured by the cops who'd arrived on the scene (I was on my way to the parade).  You'll recall Rick Byrdsong, a basketball coach at Northwestern, was also killed.

Later that year I attended a BJJ tournament in Columbus, Ohio.  On the way back we stopped at a Shoney's at the Ohio/Indiana border.  There was a "World Church of the Creator" there next to the restaurant.  Two families, in their Sunday best...with their young kids...were in the parking lot talking chatting.  As they departed, they all gave each other a salute...open hand held out, palm down, 45% angle to the plane of the ground, arm locked.  

Sound familiar?

Disturbing site...for that reason, worth reading.


Regards,


Steve


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## Makalakumu (Oct 11, 2004)

The neoconservative movement is anything but anti-semetic.  In fact, they tend to align themselves with the hard right Isreali Likud Party.  I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist on their right, I'm just pointing out that right now, there is a hell of a balancing act going on.


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## Flatlander (Oct 11, 2004)

> I thought I'd post this apart from the first one:
> 
> http://www.creator.org/index.html
> 
> The "World Church of the Creator" is not the "Creativity Movement".


 Steve, I just couldn't do it. I read the first couple of paragraphs and I had to close it. I just can't let my mind be exposed to such poison. Very disgusting group of lunatics.


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## TwistofFat (Oct 11, 2004)

As a semi-right wing nut (fiscally) and married to a Jew - it is hard not to want to use what I know to bash these scum...

I know very little about the JBS other than they are dedicated to a strict interpretation of the constitution and call themselves Judeo-Christian.  No clue if they have secret handshake or other agenda.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 11, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The neoconservative movement is anything but anti-semetic. In fact, they tend to align themselves with the hard right Isreali Likud Party. I'm not saying that anti-semitism doesn't exist on their right, I'm just pointing out that right now, there is a hell of a balancing act going on.


Puhleeze!  DO NOT EVEN MENTION THEM IN THE SAME BREATH.  How could you?!

I am not saying that the Likud aren't a bit, well, extreme, in some of their philosophy, but to say that the neoconservatives align themselves with them?  As far as the neos are concerned, last time I checked, not only was I going straight to hell but I was also considered to be one of what they feel are the inferior races in this country.  The Likud may be right wing, but there is no way they hold to the same fierce prejudices and hatred that the neos in this country do.

I have often said that I wouldn't want to live outside of the NY/metro region because I have an aversion to white sheets.  Not saying it's everywhere, but...  indulge the Queen of Paranoia a moment, please.


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## GAB (Oct 11, 2004)

Hi All,

Anyone read the book "The late great Planet Earth"?

Hi KT, I have said this a few times, but since you claim to be the Queen of paranoia, I will say this. I quit going to football games, why? because they are talking about me.

Have you ever looked up the word (paranoia) in older Books? (dict. Encyclo.)? Interesting.

Anti-semitic. The Semite's are one big dysfunctional family.

Phoenician...Outstanding culture. One of my favorite subjects.

Whom are we talking about? Specify please. Early, late? Current news or ???

Regards, Gary


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 11, 2004)

1. The greatest Klan states were Indiana and Connecticut...I'm afraid to find out if they still are.

2. At least a good chunk of the Israeli left has a fair amount of racism in common with the American right.

3. It isn't uncommon, unforunately, for portions of the American left to exercise a degree of anti-semitism in their critiques of Israel's colonialism--to use it as an excuse.

4. It's pretty common--check Pat Buchanan!--for the American isolationist Right to associate Israel with the evils of capitalism, though they otherwise support those evils.

5. Regrettably, there is a good chunk of the American evangelical and fundamentalist Chritistian community that supports Israel expansionism as part of what they see as Biblical prophecy leading to the rebuilding of the Temple and the Last Days.

Oh, well.


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## Feisty Mouse (Oct 11, 2004)

kt - I think the neocon perspective is that they want to encourage a rebuilding of Israel, to hasten the Second Coming.  So although they have a strong evangelical Christian bent, there is support (of a sort) for Jews, since the "coming home" of Jews to Israel will trigger the Second Coming.  Somehow.  

I think it's a wacky notion.  And I've never really grasped why people would *want* the world to end, to hasten the End of Days.  I thought people wanted their kids to grow up and live happy lives.

But that's me with my crazy rational thinking.


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 11, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I am not saying that the Likud aren't a bit, well, extreme, in some of their philosophy, but to say that the neoconservatives align themselves with them?  As far as the neos are concerned, last time I checked, not only was I going straight to hell but I was also considered to be one of what they feel are the inferior races in this country.  The Likud may be right wing, but there is no way they hold to the same fierce prejudices and hatred that the neos in this country do.



KT,

I think you're confusing neoconservatism with other branches of extreme right-wing conservatism, as often aligned with fringe fundamentalist Christian chuch sects.

Many of the founders of the neoconservative movement are Jewish, and they align themselves strongly with Likud.  In fact, they throw the "anti-semitism" label at anyone who dares disagree with their policies toward Israel.


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2004)

Check some of this guys stuff. He claims Bushes family financed Hitler and made money from Jewish slave labor....

http://www.john-loftus.com/default.asp


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 11, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> KT,
> 
> I think you're confusing neoconservatism with other branches of extreme right-wing conservatism, as often aligned with fringe fundamentalist Christian chuch sects.
> 
> Many of the founders of the neoconservative movement are Jewish, and they align themselves strongly with Likud.  In fact, they throw the "anti-semitism" label at anyone who dares disagree with their policies toward Israel.




This is true.  A conservative author who has picked up on that tag line of anti-semitism is Victor David Hansen, who is an OWBI (Otherwise Bright Individual).

Flatlander...it IS offensive.  Its hard to take.  I forced myself to read through it and found myself getting increasingly angry.  


Regards,



Steve



Regards,


Steve


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm afraid I don't believe in the Otherwise Bright Individual.

If somebody's a brilliant aeronautical engineer and happens to believe that the Earth's hollow, that's one thing.

But anti-semitism isn't a peripheral wackiness. It's integral to a world view: around it are built whole constellations of ideas about present foreign policy, government, politics, economics, as well as really warped notions about world history.

These beliefs--like sexism, which opens out on to a general anxiety--can serve as keys to understanding a particular world-view...which is why they're so well armored against scrutiny, let alone change. 

Look at the completely self-contradictory logic, and the common refusal to even consider facts, and the repeated attempt to deflect discussions into science fiction and "what-ifs," on these forums...it's the same sort of symptomatology, though with far less ugly ideas (and in some cases, even admirable) behind it.


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2004)

Odd...from someone who references sci-fi quite often.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 11, 2004)

Not at all; I didn't include myself out, to quote Samuel Goldwyn...and anyway, no odder than trying to substitute a "gotcha," for discussing the claim.


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2004)

OK....Im far from saying that otherwise "normal" people cant have some wacky beliefs, believe me. Ive met people who seemed perfectly fine, one mention of the word "government" and they start spouting tifoil hat stuff about kidnappings, mind control and rays coming out of their television sets......


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## Flatlander (Oct 11, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> OK....Im far from saying that otherwise "normal" people cant have some wacky beliefs, believe me. Ive met people who seemed perfectly fine, one mention of the word "government" and they start spouting tifoil hat stuff about kidnappings, mind control and rays coming out of their television sets......


And I had a good time too.  Anytime you'd like to join me for tea again, you're more than welcome.  

Bring over the tin foil!  We'll re-do my window coverings. :rofl:


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## jaymo (Oct 11, 2004)

i guess to get a better understanding on anti-semitism in america, i would have to know what you are specifically talking about. the definition means hostility towards jews, but these days anti-semitism covers a broader meaning. 

for example, jews that are against the current situation in israel-(the unfair, horrible, and degrading treatment of palestineans) are viewed as anti-semitic. jews that want to move on and not base their entire state of jewishness on the holocaust are viewed as anti-semitic. it's v. complicated. being jewish is both an ethnicity and a religious identity. 

as a liberal jewmutt, it doesn't surprise me that anti-semitism happens on the right. i grew up in poverty, i'm a jew,  and i'm a girl--when has the right ever cared about those issues?

it should be understood though, that some jews are politically conservative-(which kind of goes against the whole thing IMO, but hell-we can't all be perfect)  i know assuming things isn't the most spiritual attitude to have, and i am guilty of assuming that people that are politically on the right don't have any interest or care for me whatsoever. so i vest my energies in people that do care, and ignore the rest. if i feel comfortable, i let others know that i'm jewish. if i know it will jeopardize my safety, or cause a bunch of hateful dialogue, i leave it alone and make a point of not returning to those environments.


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## TwistofFat (Oct 11, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. The greatest Klan states were Indiana and Connecticut...I'm afraid to find out if they still are.
> 
> 2. At least a good chunk of the Israeli left has a fair amount of racism in common with the American right.
> 
> Oh, well.


1. Where does one find the latest census data on klan enrollment?  I thought the south was the center of the kkk?

2. The american right as defined by who exactly?  Racism as defined how?  That is offensive in so many ways I do not know where to start.  The basis of your position is pure speculation and is based upon an unfortunate view.  You should get some friends that disagree with you on occasion.  You said earlier...

"These beliefs--like sexism, which opens out on to a general anxiety--can serve as keys to understanding a particular world-view...which is why they're so well armored against scrutiny, let alone change. 

I give up.


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## Phoenix44 (Oct 11, 2004)

I don't think either the right or the left has a monopoly on anti-Semitism.


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## SMP (Oct 11, 2004)

I would like to point out that many right wingers are also called christian conservatives since The big JC was Jewish it would seem very foolish to be anti-Jew.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 11, 2004)

Well the question to ask in order to understand this topic. 

What is Anti Semitism and where did it come from?

The answer according to Orthodox Judaism and other Sects both Religious and Secualr Jewish Sources point to one source. That source is the New Testament and its understanding by some of the Followers of the New Testament. 

This understanding gives fuel to ideas which in turn are used to make laws, religions, governments, and other insitutions.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 11, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 1. The greatest Klan states were Indiana and Connecticut...I'm afraid to find out if they still are.
> . . .
> Oh, well.



About 20 miles from my house growing up lived the Grand Wizard of the Klan. I was escorted/followed out of the local town he lived in/near by three different police officers in their own vehicles. And people say I have to be afraid of those people over seas. I am more afraid of those that live with in a 20 mile radius of my house, and I live in a really nice nighborhood, that I choose for its' diversity.


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## heretic888 (Oct 11, 2004)

> The big JC was Jewish it would seem very foolish to be anti-Jew.



Myths have ethnicities?? Huh, who'da thunk it?  :uhyeah: 

.... heh, sorry I couldn't resist.  :supcool: 

Regarding the "anti-semitism" of the Right, don't know if that makes an entirely lot of sense. Last time I checked, a lot of the Right right now (heh, funny) seem to _really_ like Israel.

Of course, that's just my take.  :asian:


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## Feisty Mouse (Oct 11, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Well the question to ask in order to understand this topic.
> 
> What is Anti Semitism and where did it come from?
> 
> ...


True, some have used the New Testament to go after Jews - but anti-Semitism existed even before that (i.e. different persecutions).  

It's a sad, silly, crazy, dangerous thing.


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## heretic888 (Oct 11, 2004)

Anti-semitism --- as in racism --- as in persecution, distrust, and overall rejection of "the Other" (whomover that may be seen to be) --- predates Homo sapiens completely. We see it in contemporary primates, and in a few other animal species as well (certain canines suddenly come to mind).

*shrugs* What can I say?? Biological impulses and instincts ain't always pretty. That is why that little ol' thing called education is so important...


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 11, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Anti-semitism --- as in racism --- as in persecution, distrust, and overall rejection of "the Other" (whomover that may be seen to be) --- predates Homo sapiens completely. We see it in contemporary primates, and in a few other animal species as well (certain canines suddenly come to mind).
> 
> *shrugs* What can I say?? Biological impulses and instincts ain't always pretty. That is why that little ol' thing called education is so important...




Heretic,

If you are saying that those that hate or discriminate in this manner have no more thought process than a dog or a lower primate, I might agree.

If you are saying that since it happens elsewhere, and is biological, it is ok for humans to express this as well. I would disagree.

Confused  :idunno:


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## heretic888 (Oct 11, 2004)

> Heretic,
> 
> If you are saying that those that hate or discriminate in this manner have no more thought process than a dog or a lower primate, I might agree.
> 
> ...



The point I was trying to make, Rich, was that a hatred of "the Other" is based on rather primitive biological instincts --- in all likelihood, arising as a survival mechanism. After all, your pack has a better chance of surviving in any particular niche if you make sure nobody else is around to mooch on "your" resources. Or, if they do, that they do so in a much lessened capacity.

My position, as I pointed to with the importance of education, is that human beings have evolved beyond that. It is frankly demeaning to our potential as humans to continue to perpetuate such hatred of "the Other" --- just as much as it would be to continue to perpetuate primitive sexual division of labor. 

At one point in our species' (and its predecessors') development, these kind of attitudes and impulses may have been appropriate and necessary. They aren't anymore. We're better than that.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 11, 2004)

I guess I just pretty much think, Twisty, that if one looks down on Palestinians in particular and, "Arabs," in general, that pretty much qualifies one as a racist.

Are you arguing that nobody in the American right thinks this way? That nobody on the Israeli left does?

Hm, really?


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## TwistofFat (Oct 12, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I guess I just pretty much think, Twisty, that if one looks down on Palestinians in particular and, "Arabs," in general, that pretty much qualifies one as a racist.
> 
> Are you arguing that nobody in the American right thinks this way? That nobody on the Israeli left does?
> 
> Hm, really?


Robert - some on the right and left are filled with hatred - you bet.  The not so subtle difference is "some".  Your wholesale condemnation of the "American Right" and Israeli left sours the tone of your argument.  The American right can be defined but many different groups (Log Cabin, Forbes flat tax, less government spending and financial transparency wackos) that few would call hate groups.
I actually know folks who won't date someone based upon who they would vote for - actually hate other americans for their political beliefs.  Amazing but true.  Not all, just some.


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## Tgace (Oct 12, 2004)

TwistofFat said:
			
		

> I actually know folks who won't date someone based upon who they would vote for - actually hate other americans for their political beliefs. Amazing but true. Not all, just some.


No! Say it isnt so...


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## TwistofFat (Oct 12, 2004)

I read it in People Magazine.


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> No! Say it isnt so...


Politics and Religion:  WHere the rubber meets the road they are the same thing because the daily, customery/cultural life is regulated and structured around it.  So, if here in S.Buffalo, Irish Catholics were warned to cross the street to avoid contact with non Catholics or even Italians (who might also be Catholic) that is no different than staying within 'your kind' politically as well.

There is a reason that people avoid politics and religion when your in mixed company...


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## Tgace (Oct 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Politics and Religion: WHere the rubber meets the road they are the same thing because the daily, customery/cultural life is regulated and structured around it. So, if here in S.Buffalo, Irish Catholics were warned to cross the street to avoid contact with non Catholics or even Italians (who might also be Catholic) that is no different than staying within 'your kind' politically as well.
> 
> There is a reason that people avoid politics and religion when your in mixed company...


Shhhh!!! Youre giving away my "motives".....


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## heretic888 (Oct 12, 2004)

*sniffs the air* Ah... ethnocentrism, xenophobia, jingoism, and sociocentrism at their best. Delightful.

I refer everyone back to the "demeaning to our potential as human beings" comments I made earlier in regards to the propagation of such garbage.

*shrugs* Laterz.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 12, 2004)

Would sociocentrism mean that you think that your level in society is the superior one?


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## heretic888 (Oct 12, 2004)

> Would sociocentrism mean that you think that your level in society is the superior one?



Perhaps when applied to "class warfare".

Generally, its more meant in the broad sense as referring to the view that one's society or culture is superior to all others. Very similar to ethnocentrism.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 12, 2004)

Thank you for that.  I had never heard that word before.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 12, 2004)

jaymo said:
			
		

> for example, jews that are against the current situation in israel-(the unfair, horrible, and degrading treatment of palestineans) are viewed as anti-semitic. jews that want to move on and not base their entire state of jewishness on the holocaust are viewed as anti-semitic. it's v. complicated. being jewish is both an ethnicity and a religious identity.


No, I don't think so. 

First of all, it isn't _most_ Israelis who degrade and treat the Palestinians poorly -- if they do at all. Look to the extremist groups and dictators (I include Arafat in that group - my opinion and I'm entitled to it) who purposely keep the impoverished and weak under their thumbs to be used as cannon fodder in the war on terror.  Same way that _most_ people aren't anti-semites.

Second of all, the establishment of a Jewish state was of great importance right after the Holocaust in order to provide a safe haven for those who were persecuted. (All the Biblical implications aside, please.)

Third of all, there are plenty of Palestinians who live peacefully side by side with the Israelis and have for decades, if not centuries. (I lived there -- I know some of them and have seen this. That's how.) If all could be counted upon to be like that, I'd be willing to bet there would be a Palestinian state sooner rather than later.

The people of Israel must live -- and the rest of us, too.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 12, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> The point I was trying to make, Rich, was that a hatred of "the Other" is based on rather primitive biological instincts --- in all likelihood, arising as a survival mechanism. After all, your pack has a better chance of surviving in any particular niche if you make sure nobody else is
> around to mooch on "your" resources. Or, if they do, that they do so in a much lessened capacity.
> 
> My position, as I pointed to with the importance of education, is that human beings have evolved beyond that. It is frankly demeaning to our potential as humans to continue to perpetuate such hatred of "the Other" --- just as much as it would be to continue to perpetuate primitive sexual division of labor.
> ...



Heretic,

Even though you and I may Burn, it seems I agree with much you have said here. I thank you for the clarification.

Education is paramount, and is one of the major differences, in my opinion.

Thank you


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 12, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> What is Anti Semitism and where did it come from?



I dislike the term, anti-semitism.  It originated with an attempt to make hatred of Jews more "scientific" and acceptable.


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## heretic888 (Oct 12, 2004)

> Heretic,
> 
> Even though you and I may Burn, it seems I agree with much you have said here. I thank you for the clarification.
> 
> ...



My pleasure, Rich. Have a good 'un.   

Also.... if a jingoistic Dark Ages is the alternative, I will gladly welcome the burn.  :asian:


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## GAB (Oct 12, 2004)

Lets look at it from another angle.

Where do the words barbarian and gentile come from?

I again ask has anyone read the book ' the late great planet earth'?

Regards, Gary


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 12, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Where do the words barbarian and gentile come from?



"Barbarian" originated with the Greeks, who, in their ethnocentrism, believed (jokingly or otherwise) that non-Greeks were so uncivilized that their languages consisted of babbling syllables == "bar bar bar bar bar".  See the "History" of Herodotus.

"Gentile" originated in the Vulgate biblical texts to refer to non-Jewish peoples or nations.



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> I again ask has anyone read the book ' the late great planet earth'?



Yes, by the so-called "Father of Apocalyptic Christian Zionism"?  A fun mix of classic Christian Apocalyptic prophecy, with the beliefs of John Darby, Rapture, numerology, vague linkings of world events to biblical passages... 

Really a repeat of Millerite and similar "prophecy" since the early 19th century, and interesting (other than for laugh value) only in how powerful of a cultural phenomenon it became in the 1970s and early 80s, and the influence it continues to have on radical Christians, including the "Left Behind" series of fiction novels and the like.


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## GAB (Oct 13, 2004)

Peachy,

Thank you for the information.

Regards, Gry


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 13, 2004)

Uh...sorry, but does anybody really believe that when Israelis stick kids on the hoods of their jeeps to serve as human shields, or grab Palestinians off the street and force them to walk up and knock on the doors of people they want to arrest, or run peaceful farmers off their own farms, or bulldoze olive groves, or encourage Christian militias to burn out refugee camps, or demand the endless expansion of their country in the name of some wacko religious doctrine, there's no racist component to what they're doing?

I wish it weren't so. But it is.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 14, 2004)

Robertson.  YOU, of _all_ people, should know that it takes two to tango, so to speak.  Point out only one side?  SHAME on you.  As if the Arabs are innocent of any violent or sadistic acts.  They're the ones who still cut thieves' hands off in some places.  And since when do you believe everything you read???!!!  You, who are critical of all, including the media, who are equally guilty here by exaggerating things (as always).


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 14, 2004)

If Semites of one tribe hate Semites of another tribe, would they all be considered Anti-Semites?


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## TwistofFat (Oct 14, 2004)

Only if they are right wing Semites.


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

> Robertson. YOU, of all people, should know that it takes two to tango, so to speak. Point out only one side? SHAME on you. As if the Arabs are innocent of any violent or sadistic acts. They're the ones who still cut thieves' hands off in some places. And since when do you believe everything you read???!!! You, who are critical of all, including the media, who are equally guilty here by exaggerating things (as always).



Funny. I don't seem to recall him saying anything about Palestinian factions not being racist. This seems to be projectionism on your part, methinks.  :idunno:


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Right wing anti-semitism, is there anyone old enough on this thread to remember when the right wing church's of America, were against the Jewish population because they were the ones who had 'Christ' crucified?

They changed in the middle of the stream because it was not popular.

Look at it as if the big picture is being fufilled, that is as whackey as the other things that are going on right now.

Just read the old and new testament, look at it in the way it was written, why would you believe? Bush said it all last night, he lost me at the bakery.

Regards, Gary


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

> Right wing anti-semitism, is there anyone old enough on this thread to remember when the right wing church's of America, were against the Jewish population because they were the ones who had 'Christ' crucified?



You say that as if things are different now. The more conservative branches of Christianity still carry anti-semitic sentiments. Mel's movie didn't do much to help things, either.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 14, 2004)

I have always thought that the Roman Army crucified him.


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Ronald R. Harbers said:
			
		

> I have always thought that the Roman Army crucified him.


Yes that is true, they were the knife.

The Jewish community that he was against, were the reason it happened, or you can say it was the "way".

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> You say that as if things are different now. The more conservative branches of Christianity still carry anti-semitic sentiments. Mel's movie didn't do much to help things, either.


That is for true.

How can I believe in a thing as complicated as this topic?
That is the reason I am "agnostic".
Funny, I say that, and it is as if I am straddling a fence, not true.

Regrds, Gary


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 14, 2004)

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
PRESS RELEASE


AI Index: MDE 15/094/2004 (Public)
News Service No: 244 
1 October 2004


Israel/Occupied Territories: Israeli army must respect human rights in its operations
Amnesty International is concerned for the safety of the Palestinian population in the Jabaliya refugee camp and elsewhere in the northern Gaza Strip, where the Israeli army is carrying out a large-scale offensive.

In the past two days the Israeli army has killed more than 35 Palestinians, including several children and other unarmed residents who were not participating in armed confrontations with Israeli soldiers. Most of those killed and injured were hit by Israeli army tank fire and at least two were killed by a missile fired by a helicopter gunship. 

The Israeli army has deployed scores of tanks and armoured vehicles, backed by helicopter gunships. Frequent reckless shooting and shelling from Israeli army tanks and Apache helicopters into densely populated Palestinian refugee camps and other residential areas in the Occupied Territories have killed and injured thousands of unarmed Palestinians in the past four years, including hundreds of children. 

This latest Israeli army incursion follows the killing of two Israeli children by a Palestinian mortar attack on the Israeli town of Sderot on 29 September. Such mortar attacks by Palestinian armed groups against Sderot have become more frequent in recent months and have previously killed two Israeli civilians, including a child. On the morning of 30 September Palestinian armed groups in the northern Gaza Strip also killed an Israeli woman resident of a settlement and two Israeli soldiers. 

In the past two days the Israeli army has also destroyed some 20 Palestinian homes in the area and Israeli officials have indicated that they intend to carry out further destruction of Palestinian homes and properties in the area Last week the Israeli army also destroyed some 35 homes in the Khan Yunes refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. 

Amnesty International is concerned that the Israeli army's use of excessive force in this latest incursion in the Gaza Strip will result in further loss of lives and wanton destruction of Palestinian homes and property. Reprisals against protected persons and property are prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention and Israel is obliged to ensure that any measures taken to protect the lives of Israeli civilians are consistent with its obligations to respect human rights and international humanitarian law. 

Israel should immediately allow international human rights and humanitarian organizations to enter the Gaza Strip. At present Amnesty International delegates and staff members of other international organizations are denied access to the Gaza Strip. 

Amnesty International also reiterates its call on Palestinian armed groups to put an immediate end to attacks on Israeli civilians, whether in the Occupied Territories or in Israel. The organization also calls on the Palestinian Authority to exert all possible efforts to prevent such attacks.

Amnesty International also repeats its call on the international community to deploy monitors to Israel and the Occupied Territories, with the aim of ensuring the protection of the human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis.


AND THEN THERE'S THIS:


Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs

The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has provoked outrage with a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs. 
"It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," he was quoted as saying in a sermon delivered on Monday to mark the Jewish festival of Passover. 

"The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them."

Rabbi Yosef is one of the most powerful religious figures in Israel, He is known for his outspoken comments and has in the past referred to the Arabs as "vipers". 

Through his influence over Shas, Israel's third largest political party, he is also a significant political figure. 

As founder and spiritual leader of the political party Shas, Rabbi Yosef is held in almost saintly regard by hundreds of thousands of Jews of Middle Eastern and North African origin. 

The Palestinian Authority has condemned the sermon as racist and is calling on international organisations to treat the rabbi as a war criminal. 

'Arab terrorists' 

Rabbi Yosef said in his sermon that enemies have tried to hurt the Jewish people from the time of the exodus from Egypt to this day...

Shas spokesman, Yitzhaq Suderi defended the rabbi, saying his remarks referred only to "Arab murderers and terrorists" and not the Arab people as a whole....



Call me old-fashioned, wacky, liberal, conservative, crazy, I don't care. I insist on the radical idea that it is wrong to blow up kids, to have a national policy indebted to far-right religious wackoism grounded on racist religious fanatacism. I really don't give a damn if we're talking about Israel, Syria, Palestinians, Egypt, or Secaucus, NJ; I really don't give a damn what the excuse is.

Because there's always a, "reason," isn't there? Always an excuse...

It is wrong. There. I've said it--my cheap moral stand for the day.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 14, 2004)

Not such a cheap moral stand Robert.  Your post reminded me that the Palestinians resemble the American Indians.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 14, 2004)

Honestly this so balant in regards off being Pro Palestinian it is laughable. The Jewish People must do whatever it takes to survive and live we will not allow anyone or any country to make us go away. 

We have a long memory and we will not allow another situation that occurred in Europe again.  The World has never liked or even loved Jewish people and now that we have a homeland. They whomever it maybe wishes for us to go away. Israel must do whatever it takes to stay secure and safe. If this means going to war and rooting out all possible terrorist cells then do so IMO.  Reminds me of another Country going into Iraq and the War on Terror. 

This is a sensitive subject for some of us.


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## pete (Oct 14, 2004)

my grandfather, neither arab nor jew, emigrated here and struggled through the great depression.  he vowed himself never to be penniless again, and eventually died with a nice bank account.  on his deathbed he regretted not spending more of it while he could enjoy it.  in'eresting how people might act to avoid history repeating itself...


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 14, 2004)

Yep, and blowing up kids in the name of crazed, racist religious beliefs is a sensitive subject for me, too. 

I am utterly appalled that anybody would see what I posted as, "balant in regards off being Pro Palestinian it is laughable." 

I am just as appalled to see anybody with a brain condoning anybody who says crap like, "It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable...The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them."

If I were really on a roll, I'd start pulling some of the uglier comments from the assortment of right-wing Muslim nutcase imams currently rolling around the Mideast to the detriment of everbody, together with more of this idiot's uglinesses, and ask anybody if they could tell the difference.

Incidentally, part of MY religious beliefs are that in the event the sky-god is up there, the people He's waiting for with a ball-bat most of all are the, "clerics," who spout this sort of genocidal nonsense.

I could add that Israel--and this country too--depend for their place in the world upon the moral advantage they have quite rightly earned. I'd also note that we are all rapidly pissin' THAT away.

But then, I'm just saying that I strongly object to killing children in the name of sick, twisted beliefs about race and about God's plans.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 14, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Honestly this so balant in regards off being Pro Palestinian it is laughable. The Jewish People must do whatever it takes to survive and live we will not allow anyone or any country to make us go away.
> 
> We have a long memory and we will not allow another situation that occurred in Europe again. The World has never liked or even loved Jewish people and now that we have a homeland. They whomever it maybe wishes for us to go away. Israel must do whatever it takes to stay secure and safe. If this means going to war and rooting out all possible terrorist cells then do so IMO. Reminds me of another Country going into Iraq and the War on Terror.
> 
> This is a sensitive subject for some of us.


Thank you, Mark, for saying what I was about to.

Yes, it's not morally correct to blow up innocent children and women.  Again - who else is doing that in the name of freedom and liberty...

As to the Roman Army being the knife, since when do armies act upon the will of the people?  Nope.  The will of the Roman Empire, who ruled Palestine at the time.  You'll (and that's a collective you) never have correct, accurate, historical _proof_ (enough - I know there are other threads dealing with this one) that we killed him. 

As for Rabbi Yosef Shas, he's a right-wing extremist.  I've personally never heard of the man, and would not, since he doesn't consider me a Jew.  Truth.  The ultra ultra religious (right wing) Jews do not consider American Jews Jewish, much less Reform Jews, of which I am one, and - horrors - _female_!  Know your enemies.  I certainly do mine.


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

My two centz:

1) The crucifixion thing?? Meh. Personally I think the dude was a myth (and with good reason, too). And, even if he wasn't, it happened nearly 2,000 years ago: get over it.

2) Israel is hardly the "innocent victim" here, nor is Palestine. Israel as a nation was founded on VERY dubious circumstances, going back to the "zionist" movement in late 19th century England (among other places) as well as rather nasty acts of terrorism against the Palestinian families that lived there at the time.

Of course, Palestine's not off scott-free, either. On both sides of the fence, we see this inane religious fundamentalism that can so blithely turn a blind eye to the murder of innocent human beings. I cannot abide that.

In either event, claiming nationality or "ancestral homeland" on the basis of racial superiority, religious exclusivity, or "chosen" people-ness is generally what I'd call archaic when I'm being nice. Biggoted, when I'm not.

Laterz.


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 14, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> 2) Israel is hardly the "innocent victim" here, nor is Palestine. Israel as a nation was founded on VERY dubious circumstances, going back to the "zionist" movement in late 19th century England (among other places) as well as rather nasty acts of terrorism against the Palestinian families that lived there at the time.



Exactly.  As a supporter and admirer of Israelis for some time, I find it deeply offensive when someone accuses me of anti-semitism (again, the intellectual's way of saying "jew-hatred") simply because I do not find many of Israel's actions to be wise, moral, or acceptible.  

One can recognize the evil of terrorist attacks on civilians by Hamas and others, believe that Yasser Arafat is morally bankrupt, and *still* criticize Israel when it behaves badly and commits murder.


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 14, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> You, who are critical of all, including the media, who are equally guilty here by exaggerating things (as always).



KT, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are two extremely credible human rights organizations that have decried the excesses of the IDF and Israeli extremist settlers as well as the behavior of Palestinian terror groups.  

Neither is a media organization.


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

> Exactly. As a supporter and admirer of Israelis for some time, I find it deeply offensive when someone accuses me of anti-semitism (again, the intellectual's way of saying "jew-hatred") simply because I do not find many of Israel's actions to be wise, moral, or acceptible.
> 
> One can recognize the evil of terrorist attacks on civilians by Hamas and others, believe that Yasser Arafat is morally bankrupt, and *still* criticize Israel when it behaves badly and commits murder.



Well said, peachmonkey.  :asian:


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 14, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> KT, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are two extremely credible human rights organizations that have decried the excesses of the IDF and Israeli extremist settlers as well as the behavior of Palestinian terror groups.
> 
> Neither is a media organization.


I realize that and should have been more specific as to what I was talking about - that fundamentalist nut mentioned in the press release.

War is a miserable, ugly, unfair, hypocritical method of establishing one's superiority over another.  So is genocide.  So is the Inquisition.  So many people have suffered because of someone else believing that their right is right.

However, I think that there are two types of respondents to this thread.  I, and Mark Weiser, have our own way of viewing what goes on in Israel, and it's tied to our faith as well as a common bond within our people which is not easily or intellectually explained.  As he, and I, have stated, Israel must do whatever it takes to survive.  It's not just about the real estate in question, which was useless to everyone at the time of the partition in 1949 and only became desirable because our people made it so, it's about a deep-seated feeling of longing, of belonging, of going/coming home - 'next year in Jerusalem'.  Until and unless you have lived in HaEretz you cannot possibly begin to understand what it is that we feel because just touching the soil there transfigures one.  It cannot be explained in 'scientific' language, to placate those like Robertson, nor can it be explained in logical fashion, because it isn't logic which dictates the feelings and emotions attached to Israel for _all_ Jews.  I am an American, and am proud of that fact, but I am also a Jew, which is more than just a religion.  It's a culture, a way of life, and an emotional tie to those who came before.  It's the reaction one has when visiting Yad VaShem, the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, and seeing in the final gallery the shoes gathered from outside the ovens - small shoes of children, larger ones of their parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins.  It's the same visceral reaction one has when visiting the Holocaust Museum in our nation's capital and viewing the gallery where the experimentation by the Nazi doctors is so graphically depicted.  Do you know that gallery is colder than the rest?  All that -- so how can you expect us to remain unemotional and judge our people for doing what they sometimes have to and creating 'collateral damage' in the process.  Yes, it's morally wrong and repugnant to wage war, to take the lives of innocents, and to be aggressively engaged in retaining a tiny patch of ground about as large as Rhode Island in a sea of enemies.  But it's reality.


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

Reality, eh? Have to, eh?

Sorry if this sounds offensive.... but actions based on veiled ideas of racial superiority and divine mandates of "God chose this land for us, dammit!" are about as meaningful to me as the idea that every non-Christian will burn for eternity. And, I'm sure those fire 'n brimstone Christians have had their "transfiguring" and "bonding" feelings, too.

Problem, y'see, is that this "bond" only extends to all those other "special" or "chosen" people. So, you have to understand that those of us who primarily identify ourselves in terms of universal humanity may find such positions... well, goofy.

In all respect.  :asian:


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi KT,

1492 the year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, is not what the Spanish Jewish remember that year for...

Goes back beyond Hammarabi, the code and all that...

Jewish (hebrews) Semitic (arabs), very complicated. Major hate, by both sides in the name of GOD, now that is sick...Abraham, the Father of both nations they say...

I believe you will believe what suits you, that is fine as long as I can believe what I want to...

Many Freemasons died by the hands of the Germans in the Holocaust in the 30s and 40s, it was not just the Jewish they were after. 

I was talking to a former partner. His wife is a German. He met her when he was in Germany in the ARMY. She still does not believe it happened...She was born in 1945 in Germany.

Look what happened to the Armenians, the Russians, at the hand of the Germans in the war.

How about the Carthaginians, they salted the earth, to rid them from the face of the earth... 

This incident that happened in the second world war was a tragedy, but not the first, nor the last. I guess it is, who's ox is getting gored.

Talk about getting gored, how about Al Gore, I wonder how he feels???

Slavery, there is so much slavery going on, it makes America look like it never happened, look at The amount of men who died over that. 
Now this is something...China and the Manchurians. Japanese?? 

Sorry, if everything is not spelled correctly...
Regards, Gary


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 14, 2004)

Funnily enough, I too have a visceral reaction to such matters. When I read the genocidal rants of clerics with enormous influence within countries with large armies and nuclear weapons, I want to throw up.

It isn't scientific at all, for all the need to "placate people like Robertson." I want to throw up. So should you.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 14, 2004)

The Current view of our world is that we still have Survivors from that horrible incident in Europe and we are reminded as Jews to always remember and do not let the deaths of our ancestors be in vain.  There have and are lessons to be learned from that incident and Israel must and again I say MUST not allow another group of people have control over us and we will not allow anyone person or group dictate our Future, Our future is in HaShem's care, That is the Lesson we have learned that we must fight to ensure our survivual. 

Historically Jewish people have been kicked out of just about every nation on the Planet and we are usually blamed for the bad things that occur within societies thur out the World's History.  We are often reminded by our Grand Parents and earlier generations and by our Rabbi's of these facts and you can research this subject and come to the same conclusion.


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

> The Current view of our world is that we still have Survivors from that horrible incident in Europe and we are reminded as Jews to always remember and do not let the deaths of our ancestors be in vain. There have and are lessons to be learned from that incident and Israel must and again I say MUST not allow another group of people have control over us and we will not allow anyone person or group dictate our Future, Our future is in HaShem's care, That is the Lesson we have learned that we must fight to ensure our survivual.



Ugh.

Please tell me I'm not the _only one_ that sees the blatant ethnocentrism, nationalism, religious exclusivity, and downright 'us' versus 'them' mentality in Zionist claims like this??  :shrug:

Its kinda funny... considering how these nationalistic "divine right" arguments have been used to justify rather horrid brutalities over the millenia. That is, funny if it wasn't so spine-chillingly disgusting.



> Historically Jewish people have been kicked out of just about every nation on the Planet and we are usually blamed for the bad things that occur within societies thur out the World's History. We are often reminded by our Grand Parents and earlier generations and by our Rabbi's of these facts and you can research this subject and come to the same conclusion.



Ummm... didn't the Jewish people slaughter and pillage their way to the "promised land"??


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi Mark,

I notice you do not use the word GOD.

When was the Supreme being, or the Deity, or God, called God, that you can't use that name and not HaShem?

How long has your culture called, God, HaShem?

I am just asking for information, I won't know unless I ask.

Regards, Gary


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 14, 2004)

It has always been used the Term HaShem which means the NAME. It has been said that His Name has power. The honor placed upon the His Name is very sacred to us. The Rabbis since the giving of the Law have always honored HIM in this way.


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## CanuckMA (Oct 14, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> > The Current view of our world is that we still have Survivors from that horrible incident in Europe and we are reminded as Jews to always remember and do not let the deaths of our ancestors be in vain. There have and are lessons to be learned from that incident and Israel must and again I say MUST not allow another group of people have control over us and we will not allow anyone person or group dictate our Future, Our future is in HaShem's care, That is the Lesson we have learned that we must fight to ensure our survivual.
> 
> 
> Ugh.
> ...



When we sit down for the Seder, and the ENTIRE extended family, on both sides, totals less than 20, my family is quite accutely reminded of the Holocaust.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 14, 2004)

In some circles the useage of the Term ZIONIST is extremely offensive to us Jewish people depended on your intent in using this descriptive word.


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi Mark, 
Thanks for the information, I went to the Google search after asking,  found out and you confirmed it.  
Zion National park, will it be getting a new name soon?

Regards, Gary


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## heretic888 (Oct 14, 2004)

> When we sit down for the Seder, and the ENTIRE extended family, on both sides, totals less than 20, my family is quite accutely reminded of the Holocaust.



That's all well and good, but in no way is it some free pass for racial superiority, divine mandates, or the notion that anyone just HAS to increase their country's borders to "survive" --- killing a lot of innocent families in the process. Besides, there were Zionist groups using terrorism to secure their "inhabitance" of Israel long before the Holocaust. By no means did this stuff start in 1949.

I look at this the same way I look at 9/11: I don't think cultural tragedies should be green lights for political agendas. They should remind people of their shared humanity, not their skin colors or "chosen religions".

But, hey, that's just how I see it.   



> In some circles the useage of the Term ZIONIST is extremely offensive to us Jewish people depended on your intent in using this descriptive word.



It probably means what you think it means.

I use the term to refer to the blatant territorial expansion, fanatical nationalism, and abhorrent racial/religious superiority that some branches of Judaism seem to think is kosher (pardon the pun).

I just personally think that peace is preferable to "manifest destinies", "divine mandates" or claims for "promised lands". Guess I'm just a wacky kinda guy.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 14, 2004)

We could go on for days about the agenda of the Arabs in the Middle East and how they have publicly and in writing how they wish to kill the Nation of Israel or destroy it. You can even look up the documents on the Internet. They do not try to hide the fact they wish to see every Jew out of the Middle East. Now I guess the World would love nothing more than to see the Nation of Isarel destroyed. 

Now the question is this. Do you supposed that us Jewish People are to let ourselves be destroyed? Or do we have the right to defend our homes and our loved ones from such people that would strap on a bomb to their waist or chest and walk into a small business and denonate that bomb? I do not see the how a military strike is a Terrorist act when it is in defense of Our homes and our people?


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## CanuckMA (Oct 15, 2004)

Give it up Mark. I've long given up trying to have reasonable arguments with those people. Until they accept the fact that Israel is NOT going away and that we will defend our borders, it's useless to argue.


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## Mark Weiser (Oct 15, 2004)

I understand especially using interesting adjectives to descripe those actions by certain people. May the Peace of HaShem rest fully upon you and your household.


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## Darksoul (Oct 15, 2004)

-Would it be worth anything in saying "Let it be?" Probably not. I do believe in protecting what you love. And I'm sure its hard for the Israelies to hunt down troublemakers who would hide in residential neighborhoods. Come on, what better place to hide? I don't think as a group the soldiers would just shoot anything that moves, regardless of being the enemy or not. Is it about being against a group or a pack of individuals who cause trouble? Do we no longer single out those responsible and just aim for everyone else?

-The level of hate in the world is quite apallling. And I realize there are a lot of misguided people out there, people who have only ever heard a message of hate. What a thing to grow up with!! We all have known some, for whatever reason, but at that level? Everyday spent in thinking of ways why you're right, they're wrong, and what to do abou them, i.e. kill them, etc. I certainly don't expect a perfect world. I do think, however, that there are bigger problems to face, even if the hatred was ended.

-I am very undecided in terms of a spiritual path. Simply not sure what to think. Although lately I have been pulled in a direction of my own design, combining elements from many different faiths, religions, practices and more. I do believe that its important to keep life going on Earth. To what end, I don't know, but that shouldn't matter. It will reveal itself what the moment is right, should it exist. But until then, we have a shared responsibility: to keep life going. And frankly, killing, for whatever reason, just doesn't cut it.

-IMHO and no offense intended towards anyone here.

A---)


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 15, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi KT,
> 
> 1492 the year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, is not what the Spanish Jewish remember that year for...
> 
> ...


If you had read what I've posted upthread and elsewhere, I have included the others who the Nazis thought were mere oven fodder as well as the other warlike incidents to which you refer.  Spelling doesn't count here.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 15, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Reality, eh? Have to, eh?
> 
> Sorry if this sounds offensive.... but actions based on veiled ideas of racial superiority and divine mandates of "God chose this land for us, dammit!" are about as meaningful to me as the idea that every non-Christian will burn for eternity. And, I'm sure those fire 'n brimstone Christians have had their "transfiguring" and "bonding" feelings, too.
> 
> ...


I suspect a bit of transference in this reply.  NOWHERE did I say that we were racially superior - that goes against the grain.  Being _different_ than others is the interpretation I personally give to _chosen_.  How are we different?  There are very few of us left, as Canuck as sadly pointed out.  We have been picked on consistently throughout history, and I can only say again that, while I deplore barbaric behavior by the armies of the world -- and that includes _every last one_ -- Israel_  must_  live as a beacon of hope to us.  That's _my_ opinion - not asking you to share it or even validate it.   Goofy?  Maybe.  but it's who I am.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 15, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, I too have a visceral reaction to such matters. When I read the genocidal rants of clerics with enormous influence within countries with large armies and nuclear weapons, I want to throw up.
> 
> It isn't scientific at all, for all the need to "placate people like Robertson." I want to throw up. So should you.


As I told Heretic, Gary and everyone else, _read my posts - don't skim them!_  I _stated_ that that Rabbi Shas is a nut, in my opinion, which he'd not consider anyway, so why waste my breath?  And I've stated my position on terrorism and barbarism _ad nauseam_ here and elsewhere.

My dear boy.  One of the _last_ things on my mind is _placating_ you, in particular, and the others, in general.  [By the way, never said that, but never mind...  don't pet the porcupine.]  Arguing for the sake of argument is one thing.  The exchange of ideas and debate thereon is quite another.

It comes down to simple fact that if you are not a member of the group, the ideology looks like garbage to you if there's any small part of it with which one disagrees.  If you are of a faith that is a majority, you cannot begin to relate to what and how we feel.  I should ask my father-in-law to tell you all about the concentration camps - he was fortunate enough to have survived.  He probably wouldn't, as he chooses to try to forget.

I was taught in Hebrew school that Zionism was the belief in the existence of the State of Israel.  It has taken on a life of its own and has been twisted to suit the needs of the more radical and militant members of my faith.  Someone asked how I feel about Ariel Sharon.  He's a bit too extreme for my beliefs -- but he is doing what his party believes is best for the State of Israel.  After all, that's what _our _current president believes he is doing, too, isn't it?:enguard: 

There is no correct answer here.  Faith is just that - faith.

Oh yes.  To add to Mark's reply about stating The Name (HaShem) instead of the actual names we  have for our deity:  yes, it's taught that The Name has powers beyond the understanding and/or control of mortals.  That's part of the mysticism arm of Judaism, of which I have only very rudimentary knowledge.  I know that when reading Torah and one comes across The Name in one of its spellings, you are told to read it as Adonai (our G-d).  The hyphen we use when writing G-d is because one cannot erase The Name, therefore, if The Name is not written out in full (or pronounced), it lives on.  Superstition?  Probably, but it's what we do - it's faith.


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 15, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I realize that and should have been more specific as to what I was talking about - that fundamentalist nut mentioned in the press release.



My frustration with Israel's behavior is not limited to fundamentalist nutbags.  It has little or nothing to do with "what Israel has to do in order to survive".  You'll note that I support Israel's choices in every war through the 1970's.  Frankly, I'm not even sure the Palestinians deserve their own state (a topic for another thread entirely).

I don't call on Israel to stop offensives against terrorist organizations, against groups firing Qassam rockets, against people shelling civilians in their homes.  I don't call on Israel to drop their weapons and simply accept the heinous, atrocious acts committed against them.

I *do*, however, call on the IDF to follow its own doctrine, which includes the basic values of Human Dignity, Professionalism, and Purity of Arms.  The IDF does not *always* violate these values, but instances have been, and continue to be, documented where they do so in the Occupied Territories.

Doing so is counter-productive, and even worse, it is *wrong*.  I do not accept the justification of "doing whatever it takes to survive"; Israel has faced tremendous odds in the past and survived without resorting to murder or excessive use of force.

You can justify *anything* by falling back on nationalism and saying "we have to do whatever it takes to survive".  KT, you have dropped the Bush Administration (with appropriate icons) in an attempt to "jab" about "doing whatever it takes"; this "logic" falls on deaf ears here, as I don't find those sort of actions by America to be any more acceptable than those by Israel.

Regardless of the history of anti-Jewish atrocities, if you do not judge your people when they do wrong then you run the risk of allowing your people to become as bad as the enemy.  Moreover, you run the risk of discarding any moral authority you have throughout the world, and alienating anyone who would help you against those who wish to wipe you out.  

The actions of Ariel Sharon and Likud are not "a little excessive".  Sharon's actions in Lebanon in the 1980's were genocidal war crimes.  Sharon deliberately provoked the latest intifada, and used it as a political tool to gain power.  Israel has exceed the bounds of purity of arms in its response to the intifada.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 15, 2004)

Peach,

For someone so young you always make good sense in your posts.  I tend to understate things sometimes, forgetting that sarcasm and diplomatic innuendo do not translate well to the written word.    Point well taken about allowing bad to escalate to worse.  However, rhetoric will always exist and will most always whip those with a predisposition to it and listening and believing it into hate and unspeakable acts of violence.  No panacea exists.  Would that it did...


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 15, 2004)

Gee, sarcasm and diplomatic innuendo seem to translate pretty frickin' well when I use them. Hm.

As for the assertion that, "Never said that," hey, like take a gander at your post #66, my dear Watson....one might perhaps claim that you did not use the word, "placate," in the sense I believed, or one might take it as a 'xample of sarcasm and diplomatic innuendo. 

Like many, O would-be porcupine, I too prefer to believe that the wacko ideology of a few can be separated out from my own more-mature, decent and innocent ideas. Alas, nope, Prospero was right to acknowledge Caliban, T.S. Eliot was right to write that, "unnatural vices," are tangled in with out decencies--and that freak who's the head of the Shas Party, a big player in Israeli politics, is part of Israeli ideology. Or have they quit building crazy walls, bulldozing olive groves, beating kids and I missed it?

I wish it weren't true. I wish it could be dismissed. It isn't true, and even some rather frightening tub-thumping about survival or some sluffing everything off on "human nature," doesn't dismiss.

Don't pet the English teacher. He will Quote Stuff.


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## Flatlander (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Now the question is this. Do you supposed that us Jewish People are to let ourselves be destroyed? Or do we have the right to defend our homes and our loved ones from such people that would strap on a bomb to their waist or chest and walk into a small business and denonate that bomb? I do not see the how a military strike is a Terrorist act when it is in defense of Our homes and our people?


Mark, I personally do not believe that responding to violence with violence is the way to resolve the conflict.  I have a question for YOU.  Why are the Palestinians fighting?  Who is actually defending themselves here?

You know, I firmly believe that I cannot be held accountable for the actions of my ancestors.  In Canada, the Europeans moved on in, and settled lands that had previously been used and inhabited by the First Nations.  Of course, in classic British style, they sought to undermine, displace, and generally facilitate the destruction of Native culture.  We are making baby steps all the time toward moving past this atrocious history - of course there is much more to be done.  I have to ask myself, how would I feel if a Native person tried to forcibly remove me from my home, under the auspice of it being "rightfully" his?  I don't think I'd deal with it very well.

The only way that we in Canada will ever reach a place of true ethnic harmony is when all involved are prepared to sacrifice for the greater good of the generations that are to come.  We need to be tolerant, fair, and honest about our motivations.  We need to be considerate and thoughtful in our decisions.

We need to be able to coexist and prosper as brethren.

I say, enough of trying to make amends for the past - enough of trying to even the score, enough retalliation for the things somebody's great great grandfather did.  Let's look at where we are NOW, and come up with solutions that are mutually beneficial and just.

You know what's most ironic about the entire situation?  It is COMPLETELY propogated by people who claim to be more "spiritually" motivated that I.  I don't even go to church.

Figure THAT one out.


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## heretic888 (Oct 15, 2004)

*shrugs* What can I say??

I guess I just have a hard time as seeing expanding one's territorial borders through force as "defending" oneself. I guess I also have a hard time turning a blind eye to the murder of innocent families as "surviving". What's more, I have a really hard time with these inane justifications that any single ethnic group --- regardless of their history --- "deserves" some kind of homeland they hadn't lived in for centuries, or that it was "divine mandate" that makes this so.

Then again, it could just be the ethnocentric "chosen people" jingoism that turns my stomach. I dunno.

Personally, I wouldn't be too keen if a bunch of industrial superpowers helped a random Native American tribe forcibly remove me from my family's home because their ancestors lived on that spot 300 years ago. That is _exactly_ how I view Israel's territorial expansion.

And, hell, this doesn't even go into the terrorist groups that secured "Israel" for the "Jewish people" in the first place, way back in the early 1900's. Like I said, this didn't magically start in 1949. They were murdering innocent Palestinian families then, too.

Oh, and by the way, the "mysticism branch of Judaism" actually teaches its disciples to know and speak the Name. Sort of a modern-day survival of the Mystery Schools, I guess. *shrugs*

Laterz.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 15, 2004)

The Heretic wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't be too keen if a bunch of industrial superpowers helped a random Native American tribe forcibly remove me from my family's home because their ancestors lived on that spot 300 years ago. That is _exactly_ how I view Israel's territorial expansion.


The Point well taken.  Bravo!


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## GAB (Oct 15, 2004)

Hi KT.

I should have read more and posted less. 

I see what you are saying, and I am saying what I wanted to, without reading a lot of the rhetorical stuff, so I become one of the rhetorical ones also.

I am not taking sides on this, for you are much closer to the event then I am.

I feel about the various religions as I do, (agnostic). Thats all.

I was just trying to convey that it is not your religion or culture that is always being picked on.

The Arabs and the Hebrews have been going at it since, David and Goliath.

Regards, Gary


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 15, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I guess I just have a hard time as seeing expanding one's territorial borders through force as "defending" oneself.



I guess it depends on what you're talking about.  If you're referring to new Jewish settlements in the Occupied territories, I'd agree with you.  If you're talking about killing plotters who design terrorist attacks against civilians, I'd say you're completely off-base.

I have a real problem with "divine mandates" and "chosen people" too... it all comes from some of the most dangerous aspects of skygod-ism.



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> Personally, I wouldn't be too keen if a bunch of industrial superpowers helped a random Native American tribe forcibly remove me from my family's home because their ancestors lived on that spot 300 years ago. That is _exactly_ how I view Israel's territorial expansion.



Then your view is askew with, well, history.  The rest of the world has decried Israel's acts of self-defense, let alone the acquisition of the Occupied Territories.  The United Nations Security Council has called for Israel's withdrawal from them, as well as a cessation of violence by terror groups.  Understandably, Israel has resisted doing the former without any progress on the latter.  (There are other issues, of course, with Israel illegally buliding settlements in those territories...)



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> And, hell, this doesn't even go into the terrorist groups that secured "Israel" for the "Jewish people" in the first place, way back in the early 1900's. Like I said, this didn't magically start in 1949. They were murdering innocent Palestinian families then, too.



Nor does it cover the terrorist groups that murdered Jewish settlers during the same time period.  Or the British groups that actively supported the Arab terrorists, and later the Arab militias and armies.

Or the fact that there has *never* been a Palestinian independent state.

Your view of Jewish-Palestinian relations ignores, frankly, at least half of the story/


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 16, 2004)

Ah Peach.  Always the voice of reason.  No, both sides aren't really presented fully and no, it doesn't make anyone's position correct.  When dealing with such an emotionally-charged issue, I don't know that any type of argument (both pro and con) will change anyone's mind, nor the situation.

Robertson.  Sticks and stones, my dear.  Maybe your PhD (assuming, of course, the existence of at least one on your office wall) makes you feel that you are so much more incisive and can lift the fog (or veil, whichever you prefer) from all of our comments and 'show' us 'the right way' to address things, but I did state, from the start, that my answers were emotionally-based.  This is why I don't discuss Middle East politics with those I love, just those whose opinions I respect and invite for said discussion.  Not you, nor anyone else, will be able to change my mind about Israel.  I know intellectually and morally that the situation there is abhorrent, reprehensible, abominable, any other modifier you'd like to use, but in my heart I cannot abandon my people.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 16, 2004)

Mah deah KT, bubbeleh, nobody don't need no degree to understand that torture is wrong, beating children is wrong, robbing people of their land is wrong, bulldozing their houses is wrong, air strikes on communities are wrong, aiding and abetting massacres is wrong. 

Who the hell asked anybody to, "abandon Israel?" Who asked anybody to change their mind about their support for Israel? 

Who mentioned anybody's education, come to think of it?

At most, I think it's probably fair to read in my initial post a strong suggestion that one might wanna reject the racist, genocidal ******** spouted by a "rabbi," (teacher, my ***....except in the sense that, I guess, every moron with an ugly program and people stupid enough to follow him is a teacher), and that one might wanna think through what it means to have a vicious fool like this controlling a significant minority of the Knesset.

Generally speaking, hyperbolism and a general attempt to rephrase what others wrote do not represent reasoned approaches to discussion. I'd respond in kind, but I don't write that way.

Meanwhile, we still have our own vicious morons to deal with, like the Klan and the radical fundamentalist Christians who support wacko Israeli expansionists, apparently running on the theory that once the Temple gets built and Armageddon happens, everybody Jewish will convert. Lovely.


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## CanuckMA (Oct 17, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Mark, I personally do not believe that responding to violence with violence is the way to resolve the conflict.  I have a question for YOU.  Why are the Palestinians fighting?  Who is actually defending themselves here?



I guess then that the US should not have done anything after 9/11?

The Palestinians are fighting for the complete destruction of Israel. Read the PLO charter. Read Hamas' charter.

If the Palestinians really wanted their own state, why did they not accept UN resolution 181? Why did Egypt and Jordan not create a Plestinian state with the West Bank and Gaza when they were controlling them between '48 and '67?

When you are part of the majority, it's hard to understand the other side. 
There are reasons we feel touchy about the subject. 

We just celebrated our High Holy Days. Do you have any idea what it's like to have to show ID to an armed police officer in order to gain access to your place of worship on the Holiest days of the year? And that's not in the Middle East. I live in Canada.


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## Flatlander (Oct 17, 2004)

I am going to discuss this no further, as it would only serve to further derail the thread.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 18, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Who mentioned anybody's education, come to think of it?
> Gotcha.  I referred only to whether you put things on the wall of your office, didn't I?
> 
> At most, I think it's probably fair to read in my initial post a strong suggestion that one might wanna reject the racist, genocidal ******** spouted by a "rabbi," (teacher, my ***....except in the sense that, I guess, every moron with an ugly program and people stupid enough to follow him is a teacher), and that one might wanna think through what it means to have a vicious fool like this controlling a significant minority of the Knesset.
> ...


I don't know that I'd call the Israeli expansionists wackos.  There have been some pretty good arguments made as to defense of oneself and country (see the post about the US defending itself post-9/11).  At least you acknowledge that wacko-ism crosses all lines and it's not limited to expansionists and Zionists.  The Temple has been rebuilt and destroyed once already.  Will it happen again in our lifetime?  I tend to doubt it, unless the wall in Gaza is the beginning...   Will we convert?  Not bloody likely.  They can dream on.


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