# Transmitting a lineage



## East Winds (Jul 11, 2003)

Would be interested in hearing opinions on transmitting a lineage. For instance can a non family member pass on a lineage to one of his students, and if so, what value would there be in that particular lineage?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2003)

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject. 
How far do family lines run. 2nd cousin, broher-in -law, etc.


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## Taiji fan (Jul 13, 2003)

I actually had this discussion not long ago with a taiji teacher.  As she had studied under 2 of the Yang family successors, I asked her why she did not advertise herself as 5th generation as I had seen a  couple of other teachers in the UK do.  She said that these people had given themselves the 'title' and the Yang family themselves had never even heard of them.  They are not family members so they are fraudulently calling themselves 5th /6th generation etc.  She also said that the family would at times bestow the honour of inside student to non direct family members but anything else was just a bit of cheeky advertising by people.  But thats about as much light as I can shed on the subject.  It's an interesting one, I will be looking forward to hearing what people have to say on the subject.


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## East Winds (Jul 15, 2003)

Yes, Taijifan, that is my feeling. I too have seen teachers advertising as a lineage holder, but the lineage had been conferred by a non family member. 

tshadowchaser raises the next problem. What constitutes a family member?

And does it really matter?

Best wishes


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 15, 2003)

Taiji is not genetic.  Period.

You are Xth generation because your master learned from his master, etc.. 

Then there's "adopted" sons in a lineage ... whatever.

If someone wants to go by bloodline that's their business, but some things are thicker than blood for the rest of us.


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## East Winds (Jul 17, 2003)

Ken JP Stuczynski,

Interesting take on the subject. I do however agree that Taijiquan is not genetic, but it is certainly generic!!!!!!!! From your post I take it you have no interest in the purity of the form you teach. Only "I will teach what I was taught". No wonder we have so many crap videos available> No wonder people think that Chen Man-ching form is Yang style!!!!! If you cannot show where your form is coming from, then it probably isn't Taijiquan. It might look like Taijiquan (as is the case with the Taoist Tai Chi Society), but it most certainly isn't. That is why I think the art has become eroded. 

Incidentaly what form do you teach?

With very best wishes


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by East Winds _
> *... From your post I take it you have no interest in the purity of the form you teach. Only "I will teach what I was taught". *



No interest?  

I'm the oddball in my system because inbstead of combining my Tai Chi with other disciplines (martial arts and healing arts, philosopy, etc..), I always try to go back to the source.  In fact, I'm affiliated with a non-lineaged system (as most are) and WISH we had some "purity".

I teach things as they are in their cultural context first, then as a whole with other things for modern life.  And out of respect, I try to keep it otherwise consistent with the from and methods of the school I currently affiliate with (http://buffalotaichi.com/8tigers).

Not that there really is one source, but I'm talking about researching ancient texts, comparing styles and their histories, and then practice shows what works and what doesn't (rarely in contradiction to the early teachings).

Besides, careful what you say about purity.  No two people will do Tai Chi the same -- and THEY SHOULDN'T.  If you saw the three most recent generations of the Wu family "grandmaster", they would look nothing alike.  Nothing was lost in the transmission -- they were different body types -- different people, even if related by blood.

None of this is the point I made.  My point was that if teaching is handed down, it would be silly to assume that someone's blood son would be the best choice every generation.


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## East Winds (Jul 18, 2003)

Ken,

Thanks for the reply. Those of us who study Taijiquan from a family lineaged source, guard our teaching jealously. I suppose it is a bit like buying a CD or computer software. You can buy the real thing or you can buy a pirated version.  If you are happy with the pirated version, then that is OK. Buying the real thing in terms of Taijiquan costs much more in time and dedication. The quick fix is OK but eventually you come to realise the inadequacies of the system.

I also agree that a family member might not necessarily be the best  transmitter of the form. However you must agree that he will probably have more chance of transmitting an unaltered version.

Also the point about no two people doing Taijiquan the same way is correct. However they should certainly all be taking regard of the essences of the form they are performing. As for instance in Traditional Yang. If you are not taking regard of Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences, then you are not doing Traditonal Yang Tajiquan.

Thanks for your input and very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland.

P.S. Incidentally what made you depart from the Taoist Tai Chi Society route?


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _P.S. Incidentally what made you depart from the Taoist Tai Chi Society route? [/B]_


_ 


I recommend people to them all the time for further study once they get a "crash course" from me.  There are lots of non-martial reasons I did not continue study, but also they are not a traditional (lineaged) school, instead of "traditional-style" like mine, and if I spent the money, I would prefer one (ironically).

They don't teach breathing at all for the first two years, the focus always seemed to be on Western physical therapy, and watching their teachers (who are very good in general) made me cringe a few times -- one of them does a sword form with their eyes bugged out, which strains the CNS during the form.

And you are wholly correct about the 10 essences thing -- that's exactly waht I'm talking about.  But the fact that TCMA were historically "secretive" (i.e. kept in the family for the most part) is a mixed blessing at best.  Not speaking of anyone in particular, but generations of poorly chosen successors and the blind-sightedness of nepotism have reduced many once-impressive systems to being little better than Americanized kick-foo.

These may seem like fighting words, but it's a valid observation.  If it weren't, there would be no place for all the anti-traditional Gracie-Bullsh*tsu-type stuff out there.

I still assert that a family memeber has no better a chance (in today's world) of keeping a form "true" than an outsider.  Remember, most styles of Tai Chi originated and were passed down through people who studied WITH and not IN the families they are named for.  If it wasn't for these people, most of us would never have heard of Tai Chi -- it would be the lore of National Geographic in backwoods China._


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## Taiji fan (Jul 18, 2003)

I am sorry but I had to jump in on this one....





> I recommend people to them all the time for further study once they get a "crash course" from me.


 you recommend people to the taoist tai chi society? What on earth for?  They appear to not have the slightest clue what tai chi actually is, they have no concept of correct footwork or the body structure.



> They don't teach breathing at all for the first two years,


  so their students all trun blue and keel over then...ha ha sorry just having a laugh!



> and watching their teachers (who are very good in general) made me cringe a few times


 They make me cringe too...but it is the good in general part that got me...I am sure we had a thread on taoist tai chi society somewhere.....:soapbox:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _
> *I am sorry but I had to jump in on this one.... you recommend people to the taoist tai chi society? What on earth for?  They appear to not have the slightest clue what tai chi actually is, they have no concept of correct footwork or the body structure.
> ...
> 
> They make me cringe too...but it is the good in general part that got me...I am sure we had a thread on taoist tai chi society somewhere.....:soapbox: *



IMO, they are good in general ... and their body postures, though I don't agree with the perspectives throughout, is on the right track IMO.  I even use a few of their stretches (modified into more traditional-style ones).

But whoever is not against us is for us, and they are the next best thing to having the Wu family less than a half-day's drive away.  They do a lot of "improving quality of life stuff", and their students look good on the floor, including heavier people being unbelievably graceful.


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## Taiji fan (Jul 18, 2003)

> IMO, they are good in general ... and their body postures, though I don't agree with the perspectives throughout, is on the right track IMO.


 we have obviously seen different taoist tai chi society stuff.  They appear to be using a bastardised form of Yang style.  Their posture is totally incorrect, their method of practice is totally incorrect and from speaking to people who are involved in the organisation it is run more like  a cult.

Have you ever seen the David Carradine tai chi workout video?  Well that reminds me of the taoist tai chi society's understanding of taiji is.   Stick with your Wu style.

I have no problem with improving the qulity of life stuff....that is a by product of good taiji practise anyway.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _
> *we have obviously seen different taoist tai chi society stuff.  They appear to be using a bastardised form of Yang style.  Their posture is totally incorrect, their method of practice is totally incorrect and from speaking to people who are involved in the organisation it is run more like  a cult.
> 
> Have you ever seen the David Carradine tai chi workout video?  Well that reminds me of the taoist tai chi society's understanding of taiji is.   Stick with your Wu style.
> ...



Well ... that's all we got around here for the most part.  Heck, if there were enough classes taught by real masters around here, I'd step down from my post in a heartbeat.


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## Taiji fan (Jul 18, 2003)

> Well ... that's all we got around here for the most part. Heck, if there were enough classes taught by real masters around here, I'd step down from my post in a heartbeat.


  :boing2:  you and me both.  Good taiji is so hard to find.  Getting to the really good stuff can be so hit or miss.  My first school was the only school there was so as my first exposure to taiji they seemed great. Looking back now I can see that their actual knowledge of taiji is minimal, but hey they still have students and classes still running, no doubt with countless people who like me thought they were being taught taiji.  In fact I found out at a later date that my first instructor had essentially learned his form from a book and video.  And this is a guy with a big reputation in the UK..... :erg:


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## liangzhicheng (Aug 20, 2003)

I agree...finding a good teacher is hard to do.  This is how I understand passing a lineage down (in a traditional school): After learning for several years, you are asked to become a disciple, which means you are committing to that one style.  You begin assistant teaching in order to gain teaching experience, while still training and learning with your Sifu.  After a while, if the family decides that you truly understand and can faithfully transmit their style, then you are allowed to accept disciples yourself, which makes you part of the family.  (Technically, becoming a disciple makes you a part of the family).  This is not for everyone, nor does it mean that the teacher who can't trace a lineage lacks skill.


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