# Korean Karate?



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 12, 2011)

Manny has a thread going right now which started to drift over to the use of '*Karate*' for Korean arts, specifically TKD.  I wanted to touch on this further without derailing his thread.  What's your view on the use of the word 'Karate' to describe a Korean art.  I've seen _Taekwondo Karate, Tang Soo Do Karate _and even _Hapkido Karate _before.  And many of the TKD & TSD schools in our area have a big light up '*Karate*' sign over the school.  

Now originally I understand that this was a commercial decision since 'Karate' was much better known as opposed to TKD, TSD & HKD.  But nowadays, that really doesn't or shouldn't apply should it?  This isn't the early 60's where no one has heard of TKD, TSD & HKD.  Should it still be used?

I recently was doing a search on something or other and came across _Kim Soo Karate_.  Thought it was interesting and I don't particularly have a problem with it.  The term 'Soo' is some ways replaces the term 'Ryu', at least as an identification of the type of Karate...or Korean Karate that is being advertised.  Is that acceptable?  How about Tae Soo Karate or any other variation of a Korean identifier with the JMA/OMA term of Karate?

Your thoughts and views...


----------



## Manny (Aug 12, 2011)

When I got inside TKD I did not know what was that, the fellow student (a girl) who took me to the dojang tell me it was korean karate (Jido Kwan TaeKwodo). Even these days my former dojang has the same sing that used back in the 80's it says Tae Kwon Do JiDo Kwan- Korean Karate.

My former master was a karateka that in the early 70's turned to TKD, Sambonim Ramon Alvite came to my city from Mexico City in 1978-79 and he is considered the introductor of Taekwondo in my state.

Another funny thing what about Kenpo Karate or American Kenpo Karate (Ed Parker) they adverised that way and it's not japanese karate per se too.

Manny


----------



## Manny (Aug 12, 2011)

BTW my actual sambonim does not adverise his dojang as Karate Koreano (Korean Karate) his sing says: Hwarang Taekwondo Arte Marcial Coreano ( Hwarang Taekwondo Korean Martial Art).

Maybe I am fooling myself, but I am square and like to train and use the Old Way, the New TKD era does not atract me so much, you know all the new gadgets, new uniforms, new WTF competition rules, new way to do sparring, etc,etc.

Manny


----------



## elder999 (Aug 12, 2011)

When I started out in karate, it was Duk Sung Son's version of CHung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. If you look at the history, and examine the fomrs used, it was basically a Korean version of Shotokan:_Korean_ karate.


----------



## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Ma
> I recently was doing a search on something or other and came across _Kim Soo Karate_.  Thought it was interesting and I don't particularly have a problem with it.  The term 'Soo' is some ways replaces the term 'Ryu', at least as an identification of the type of Karate...or Korean Karate that is being advertised.  Is that acceptable?  How about Tae Soo Karate or any other variation of a Korean identifier with the JMA/OMA term of Karate?



Kim Soo karate actually refers to the head of the organization.  The gentleman's name is Kim Pyung Soo - he developed a teaching methodology combining elements of karate, taekwondo, kwon bup, and hapkido called "Chayon-ryu".  You can search on Chayon-ryu here and on the net.  It's been discussed a few times below and one of GM Kim's direct students posts here from time to time.  The Chayon-ryu system has ties to Shudokan karate and kwon bup through GM Yoon Byung In and GM Kim also had high rank with the KKW.


----------



## dortiz (Aug 12, 2011)

I just had a Coke with lunch...er wait it was an RC Cola.


p.s. I have that book too.


----------



## hungryninja (Aug 12, 2011)

I think in modern times, "Karate" should not be used to describe a Korean art (unless those schools are specifically teaching karate).  People still use it as a marketing term, but I think most people know what taekwondo is now.  (e.g. ATA uses the term "Karate for Kids" to describe their junior program...probably because it's a "catchy" name).



Kong Soo Do said:


> Manny has a thread going right now which started to drift over to the use of '*Karate*' for Korean arts, specifically TKD.  I wanted to touch on this further without derailing his thread.  What's your view on the use of the word 'Karate' to describe a Korean art.  I've seen _Taekwondo Karate, Tang Soo Do Karate _and even _Hapkido Karate _before.  And many of the TKD & TSD schools in our area have a big light up '*Karate*' sign over the school.
> 
> Now originally I understand that this was a commercial decision since 'Karate' was much better known as opposed to TKD, TSD & HKD.  But nowadays, that really doesn't or shouldn't apply should it?  This isn't the early 60's where no one has heard of TKD, TSD & HKD.  Should it still be used?
> 
> ...


----------



## rlobrecht (Aug 12, 2011)

I attended Kim Soo Karate as a kid (80's) and our instructor described it as a mix of taekwondo, karate, and some other stuff.

The dojang I train at now has a big lighted sign that says KARATE.  I think my sabumnim said the sign was already there when he moved into the space, but he left it because he felt more people would recognize the term. I've only seen two people actually turn around when we say we teach taekwondo.  Most people are bringing their kids, and they don't know what they want to learn, so the difference between karate and taekwondo is irrelevant to them.

I'd have to say our sparring is more like the karate sparring that I've seen, as compared to WTF style olympic sparring.

Rick


----------



## Cyriacus (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, its similar in most peoples eyes to Karate - And its from Korea


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, its similar in most peoples eyes to Karate - And its from Korea


I agree, particularly in its original form. I did shotokan when I was younger and found the transition to a 'traditional' form of tkd to be a very easy one. I really dont see a lot of difference at all, some would say tkd has a lot more kicking but I dont know if there is any hard and fast rule that says tkd should be 80% kicks. Where I train we do at least 50% hand strikes. Kicks are great but if you cant use your hands then you are going to get in trouble if push ever comes to shove.


----------



## Cyriacus (Aug 12, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree, particularly in its original form. I did shotokan when I was younger and found the transition to a 'traditional' form of tkd to be a very easy one. I really dont see a lot of difference at all, some would say tkd has a lot more kicking but I dont know if there is any hard and fast rule that says tkd should be 80% kicks. Where I train we do at least 50% hand strikes. Kicks are great but if you cant use your hands then you are going to get in trouble if push ever comes to shove.


Since ive mentioned this in the thread very similar to this one;
Where i train, we Practice Kicking more than Punching since Kicking requires more skill (This is only Punching and Kicking - Everything else is practiced as well); But spar with ALOT more Punching than Kicking.

Shotokan is very similar, except for its Stances, i find.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Since ive mentioned this in the thread very similar to this one;
> Where i train, we Practice Kicking more than Punching since Kicking requires more skill (This is only Punching and Kicking - Everything else is practiced as well); But spar with ALOT more Punching than Kicking.
> 
> Shotokan is very similar, except for its Stances, i find.


I agree. It takes a lot longer to learn kicks than punches and there are just so many kicks to learn, so therefore more time is spent learning kicking. In practice though, we are similar in that we incorporate a lot more punching into our sparring. When we get 'kickers' come and train at our club they have absolutely no idea what to do when an opponent comes in with a flurry of good punches, we've even had a few say "hey, hey, a little less punching mate, we should be kicking more". Im pretty sure you cant make that request when you're being attacked on the street


----------



## Cyriacus (Aug 12, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree. It takes a lot longer to learn kicks than punches and there are just so many kicks to learn, so therefore more time is spent learning kicking. In practice though, we are similar in that we incorporate a lot more punching into our sparring. When we get 'kickers' come and train at our club they have absolutely no idea what to do when an opponent comes in with a flurry of good punches, we've even had a few say "hey, hey, a little less punching mate, we should be kicking more". Im pretty sure you cant make that request when you're being attacked on the street


"HEY! Stop tr..." *Crack*


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 13, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree, particularly in its original form. I did shotokan when I was younger and found the transition to a 'traditional' form of tkd to be a very easy one. I really dont see a lot of difference at all, some would say tkd has a lot more kicking but I dont know if there is any hard and fast rule that says tkd should be 80% kicks. Where I train we do at least 50% hand strikes. Kicks are great but if you cant use your hands then you are going to get in trouble if push ever comes to shove.



I trained Wado Ryu to 1st Kyu and moved to Tang Soo Do where I found bar a couple of extra kicks and little bits left out the TSD patterns are the same as the Wado ones and I believe the Shotokan ones too. TSD is much easier than Wado, with far less stances and strikes but those they do have are indentical.


----------



## ATACX GYM (Aug 13, 2011)

My Hapkido and Hwarangdo GMs used the terms karate and kungfu to draw people into their schools for a time wherein they were rigorously taught the difference between karate,kungfu and Hapkido (although my Hapkido GM is also an old skool Hung Gar sifu and a Hwarangdo master) or Hwarangdo. Once the profile of their art was raised enough that it was recognizable by the American public in general,they eschewed the use of karate or kungfu and discouraged the terms in the dojangs.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 13, 2011)

I joke to my Master that my black belt essay will start with, "Taekwondo is a Korean word which means "karate" "


----------



## Cyriacus (Aug 13, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I joke to my Master that my black belt essay will start with, "Taekwondo is a Korean word which means "karate" "


Wait, where's the Joke?
Am I missing something here?


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2011)

TKD is different to karate no doubts but it's hard to argue that TSD isn't karate when it karate with some of the difficult bits taken out!


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Wait, where's the Joke?
> Am I missing something here?


The joke is that everyone writes in their BB essay something like "taekwondo is a korean word which means "the art of the foot and fist" ".  We generally stress that TKD is Korean, whilst karate is Japanese.  In reality though, how different are they? I read a Jackie Chan book and he wrote that all the martial arts are the same in the end, other than boxing. I do see differences in techniques of course, but the kicks and punches are much more similar than different (in my somewhat uneducated opinion!).


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 14, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The joke is that everyone writes in their BB essay something like "taekwondo is a korean word which means "the art of the foot and fist" ". We generally stress that TKD is Korean, whilst karate is Japanese. In reality though, how different are they? I read a Jackie Chan book and he wrote that all the martial arts are the same in the end, other than boxing. I do see differences in techniques of course, but the kicks and punches are much more similar than different (in my somewhat uneducated opinion!).



In some regards that is fairly accurate.  If you put practitioners in a T-shirt and sweat pants and had someone walk into the room they were training it, would they know whether it was a Hapkido or Aikido or Aikijujutsu or Chin Na class going on?  Would they know whether it was 'old school' TKD, or TSD or Shotokan or Shudokan?  There may be the occassional 'tell-tale' that gives it away to one really deep into a particular art, but generally speaking it is all very similar.  At least in practice if not focus.  

I suppose a 'rose by any other name is still a rose'.


----------



## TwentyThree (Aug 14, 2011)

I started martial arts at a school in Mississippi, learning PaSaRyu TKD.  The building had (and still has in a new building) a big, lighted sign saying "Karate".  When I asked the master why this was, he replied "It was a cheaper sign than Tae Kwon Do".


----------



## Spookey (Aug 14, 2011)

Here are a few good reasons for the continued use of the term...

1. The word "Karate" is a universally recognized martial arts terms among both martial artists and non martial artists so it get's the point across quickly'
2. Most dojangs will have a sign out side, most sign companies charge either per letter or sign dimensions, either way Karate is more cost efficient.
3. New students are born everyday, and few care what style they study...the just "wanna learn karate"
4. The instructor can use the sign both to draw attention, then to spread knowledge of the difference...

Unfortunately, in the United States there are still an extreme number of people who think all Asians are Chinese and all Hispanics are Mexican...that is the world of laziness we live in. People refuse to educate themselves, that is why they depend on us...the TEACHERS!


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 14, 2011)

Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do belong in the Karate family IMO.  They share the Basics-Forms-Sparring training methodology and, even though these elements have no pedagogical link, this is something distinct to arts in the karate family.  


Branches on a tree...


----------



## rlobrecht (Aug 14, 2011)

Ignoring the cost per letter aspect, I wonder if Martial Arts would be as effective to the average prospective customer as Karate?


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 14, 2011)

rlobrecht said:


> Ignoring the cost per letter aspect, I wonder if Martial Arts would be as effective to the average prospective customer as Karate?



I is an all encompasing term.  It should do nicely.

How about Korean Karate (TKD, TSD etc) that use Japanese and/or Okinwan kata rather that Korean forms?  Or, how about Korean Karate using Japanese and/or Okinawan terminolgy?


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 14, 2011)

How about just karate?  Why do we need to nod toward nationality at all?


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 14, 2011)

Makalakumu said:


> How about just karate?  Why do we need to nod toward nationality at all?


"Karate" itself is Japanese.  I think the term without nationality would be "martial arts".


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 14, 2011)

Whilst I agree that "martial arts" would be the most generic term, I think "karate" nods toward a particular lineage that really does fit the bill.  Karate pedagogy has a particular structure that is repeated throughout it's Korean antecedents.  As far as non-nationality based families of martial arts are concerned, karate fits.

BTW - karate isn't Korean, or Japanese or even Okinawan...it means China Hand.  Who can argue that these martial arts do not ultimately relate back to China?


----------



## Cyriacus (Aug 14, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The joke is that everyone writes in their BB essay something like "taekwondo is a korean word which means "the art of the foot and fist" ".  We generally stress that TKD is Korean, whilst karate is Japanese.  In reality though, how different are they? I read a Jackie Chan book and he wrote that all the martial arts are the same in the end, other than boxing. I do see differences in techniques of course, but the kicks and punches are much more similar than different (in my somewhat uneducated opinion!).


 What i love here, is that i was referring to the whole statement. Not the context  I was saying, "Doesnt Taekwondo Translate To Karate?" - But since we now have a whole other topic...  Taekwon-Do, at least how ive learnt it, is about being Effective. It was developed for the Korean Military. Karate, in many of its forms, was designed to be Effective. It was developed for the Japanese Military (Not originally, i know. It dates RIGHT back. I mean more Recent Karate). Pugilism, in its early forms, was a Combat Art even used by the US Marines in WW1, and as such, was adapted BY the Military.  My conclusion is, that they were all designed to be Practical and Effective. And came to many of the same Conclusions on how exactly to attain that.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Aug 15, 2011)

I was talking to someone once who was of high rank in 3 different martial arts and had done martial arts full time his whole life. He said to me that the longer he studied the 3 arts the more he realised how similar all martial arts are. He said we only have 2 arms and 2 legs, there are only so many ways you can use them and by the time you have studied several arts for 30 years or more and get into the really advanced stuff he said they all really just become the same thing.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Aug 15, 2011)

Arriving a little late to this party, but for more than 30 years our Kwan Jang Nim had "Korean Karate" hanging outside his doors.  Only recently did he change it to S.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do.  In my particular case, it fits, since we practice adaptations of Karate Kata (Kicho Hyungs, Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi, Jin Do, Kang Son Kun, etc.)  I personally don't see a problem with the nomenclature.  

   The modern TKD curriculum has little resemblance to classical Karate Do, so I can see how it _could _be misleading in that sense.  However, there could be an argument that modern Karate has little resemblance to classical Karate Do.. .  


As ol' Billy Shakespeare said:  ".. .a rose by any other name, would still smell as sweet.. ."


----------



## TimoS (Aug 15, 2011)

Makalakumu said:


> .
> BTW - karate isn't Korean, or Japanese or even Okinawan...it means China Hand.  Who can argue that these martial arts do not ultimately relate back to China?


Well yes and no, IMO. Although the roots of karate are in Chinese arts, karate has evolved to it's own specific, originally Okinawan art. We have some knowledge about what e.g. Higaonna and Uechi studied, but nobody really knows the roots of Shorin schools. Furthest we can reliably trace those roots back to is Sakugawa (or Matsumura, depending on if the stories of who Matsumura learned from are true).


----------



## miguksaram (Aug 15, 2011)

Makalakumu said:


> BTW - karate isn't Korean, or Japanese or even Okinawan...it means China Hand.  Who can argue that these martial arts do not ultimately relate back to China?


Actually that is not entirely true.  While in the beginning it was written as China Hand, Gichin Funakoshi changed the kanji that represented China to say Empty.  The purpose being to separate its roots and make it something that was distinguishably Japanese/Okiawan.    It has since evolved into just that.  This is no different that what Taekwondo did from its Karate roots.  They separated for the most part and evolved into something that was distinguishably Korean. 

Terms are terms...Korean Karate....Japanese Kung Fu.  It all serves the same purpose.


----------



## TimoS (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Gichin Funakoshi changed the kanji that represented China to say Empty.


This is a popular misconception. While Funakoshi helped popularize the new name, he most certainly did not originate it. First of all, the "empty hand" characters were used in written form already in 1905 (or somewhere around that year, I'm writing on my mobile and can't check, so I'm relying on memory) in a book by Hanashiro Chomo. Then the name change was done "officially" in 1935 meeting of masters, and Funakoshi wasn't among those invited.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Aug 15, 2011)

Karate was changed from 'China hand' to 'empty hand' as a result of Japanese Imperialism and their desire to weed out any connection to Chinese influences.  Basically, their attempt at a history rewrite if we wish to get down to brass tacks.  Many of the Okinawan masters resisted this move.  Funakoshi was a force in the movement for it however as is evident from changing Pinan to Heian.  It was a case of 'to get along you have to go along'.  This is why we have the Dan/Kyu system, Gi's etc as well.  He wasn't at the 'meeting of the masters' (which I'm thinking was 1924 but could be mistaken and thinking of something else), but he did have a direct connection with the Japanese Ministry as well as getting it into the Japanese school system (as his Master Itosu had done in Okinawa previously).


----------



## TimoS (Aug 15, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> He wasn't at the 'meeting of the masters' (which I'm thinking was 1924 but could be mistaken and thinking of something else)


1936


----------



## miguksaram (Aug 15, 2011)

TimoS said:


> This is a popular misconception. While Funakoshi helped popularize the new name, he most certainly did not originate it. First of all, the "empty hand" characters were used in written form already in 1905 (or somewhere around that year, I'm writing on my mobile and can't check, so I'm relying on memory) in a book by Hanashiro Chomo. Then the name change was done "officially" in 1935 meeting of masters, and Funakoshi wasn't among those invited.



Thank you.  I was going off of his book "My Way" which he mentioned that he changed the kanji.  However, it still goes to the point that Karate no longer meant "China Hand".


----------



## TimoS (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> However, it still goes to the point that Karate no longer meant "China Hand".


True. I don't think anyone in Japan or Okinawa currently uses the kanji for China. I think Tang Soo Do is just about the only one to use those kanji


----------



## andyjeffries (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> While in the beginning it was written as China Hand, Gichin Funakoshi changed the kanji that represented China to say Empty.



I'm not arguing for who changed it, but Funakoshi doesn't seem to take credit for changing it in his book Karate-do - My Way of Life:

_"So should our martial art be written with the characters that mean, &#8220;Empty hand(s)&#8221; or with those that mean &#8220;Chinese hand(s)&#8221;? Here again we are in the shadowy realm of conjecture, but I believed I am safe in saying that before I came to Tokyo from Okinawa in the early 1920s, it was customary to use the character for &#8220;Chinese&#8221; rather than that for &#8220;empty&#8221; to write karate, but this certainly does not mean that the use of the &#8220;Chinese&#8221; kara was necessarily correct._

_True, in Okinawa we used the word karate, but more often we call the art merely Te or bushi no te, &#8220;warrior&#8217;s hand(s).&#8221; Thus, we might speak of a man as having studied Te or as having had experience in bushi no te. As to when te first became karate I Okinawa usage, I must refrain from offering even a conjecture, since there is no written material in existence that would provide us with the vaguest hint, much less tell us whether the character used was that for &#8220;Chinese&#8221; or that for &#8220;empty.&#8221; Most probably, because Okinawa had long been under Chinese influence and because whatever was imported from China was considered to be both excellent and fashionable, it was the &#8220;Chinese&#8221; kara rather then the &#8220;empty&#8221; kara, but this, as I say, can only be the merest guesswork. "_


----------



## andyjeffries (Aug 15, 2011)

Funakoshi then goes on to say (should have posted this all in one):

_Actually, the two kinds of Te taught and practice in Okinawa might more correctly have been called Shurite and Nawate, after the two different schools of karate on the island. But the character for &#8220;Chinese hand(s)&#8221; seems to have become the most popular, and, perhaps as a result, people came to believe that karate was actually a form of Chinese boxing art. Even today there are those who hold that opinion, but in fact karate as practiced today is very different indeed from the ancient Chinese art of boxing.

_
_Largely for that reason, I found it difficult to believe that &#8220;Chinese hand(s)&#8221; was the correct term to describe Okinawan karate as it has evolved over the centuries. Then, a few year after I came to Tokyo, I had an opportunity to express my disagreement with this traditional way of writing. It came about when Keio University formed a karate research group, and I was able then to suggest that the art be renamed Dai Nippon Kempo Karate-dõ (&#8220;Great Japan Fist-Method Empty-Hands Way&#8221, making use of the character for &#8220;empty&#8221; rather than that fro &#8220;Chinese.&#8221;_

_My suggestion initially elicited violent outbursts of criticism in both Tokyo and Okinawa, but I had confidence in the change and have adhered to it over the years. Since then, it has in fact gained such wide acceptance that the world karate would look strange to all of us now if it were written with the &#8220;Chinese&#8221; kara character._
_The kara that means &#8220;empty&#8221; is definitely the more appropriate. For one thing, it symbolizes the obvious fact that this art of self-defense make use of no weapon, only bare feet and empty hands. Further, students of Karate-dõ aim not only toward perfecting their chosen art but also toward emptying heart and mind of all earthly desire and vanity. Reading Buddhist scriptures, we come across such statements as &#8220;Shiki- soku-ze-ku&#8221; and &#8220;Ku-soku-zeshiki,&#8221; which literally means, &#8220;matter is void&#8221; and &#8220;all is vanity.&#8221; The character ku, which appears in both admonitions and may also be pronounced kara, is in itself truth._

_Thus, although the martial arts are many and include such diverse forms as judo, fencing, archery, spear fighting and stick fighting, the ultimate objective of all of them is the same as that of karate. Believing with the Buddhists that it is emptiness, the void, that lies at the heart of all matter and indeed of all creation, I have steadfastly persisted in the use of that particular character in my naming of the material art to which I have given my life. Indeed, I have much more to say on the use of kara meaning &#8220;empty,&#8221; but as space is limited and this philosophical problems have little place here, I shall refrain from going in to the problem any more deeply. And the subject is dealt with in greater detail in another of my books, Karate-dõ Kyõhan: The Master Text._

_Once I realized that I was destined to succeed in popularizing the change from &#8220;Chinese&#8221; hands to &#8220;empty&#8221; hands, I embarked upon others tasks of revision and simplification. Hoping to see karate included in the universal physical education taught in our public schools. I set about revising the kata so as to make them as simple as possible. Times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The karate that high school students practice today is not the same karate that was practiced even as recently as ten year ago, and it is a long way indeed from the karate that I learned when I was a child in Okinawa.

_Just thought this might be of interest to someone/those following the conversation.


----------



## Balrog (Aug 15, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Now originally I understand that this was a commercial decision since 'Karate' was much better known as opposed to TKD, TSD & HKD. But nowadays, that really doesn't or shouldn't apply should it? This isn't the early 60's where no one has heard of TKD, TSD & HKD. Should it still be used?



Yes.  "Karate" has become much like "Band-Aide" or "Coke".  People do not know the difference; if you're in your PJs and yelling hi-yah, you're doing karate.


----------

