# Bowing to the flag.



## Carol

When I was looking for a dojo to join,  I found one that had a rule that concerned me.  The dojo required students to bow to the flag upon entering and leaving the school.  

This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her. 

How common is a rule like this?  Is it found in other dojos?


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## rutherford

You ever put your hand over your heart?

What do you feel is the difference?


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## Marginal

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her.


 
I've never been asked to bow to a Jesus statue. Why equate bowing with worship? It's just a gesture of respect.


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## Jonathan Randall

It is the old style _salute_, not to be confused with _bowing down before an image or idol._


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## Carol

I apologize, I should clarify.  I'm very new to martial arts and have very little understanding of how different schools are run.  I apologize for bringing my personal stance in the situaion, I'm afraid that it may have given the impression that I have some sort of agenda or reason to inflict my beliefs on others...where I absolutely do not.

I was just curious as to whether bowing to the flag was a commonplace.  So far, I have seen one school that has such a practice and another school that doesn't.  I was hoping for a perspective that included........more than two schools 

I'm also new to this board, if this was an inappropriate or disrespectful thing to ask, please forgive me.


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## Jonathan Randall

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> I apologize, I should clarify. I'm very new to martial arts and have very little understanding of how different schools are run. I apologize for bringing my personal stance in the situaion, I'm afraid that it may have given the impression that I have some sort of agenda or reason to inflict my beliefs on others...where I absolutely do not.
> 
> I was just curious as to whether bowing to the flag was a commonplace. So far, I have seen one school that has such a practice and another school that doesn't. I was hoping for a perspective that included........more than two schools
> 
> I'm also new to this board, if this was an inappropriate or disrespectful thing to ask, please forgive me.


 
Not at all. I would encourage all prospective students who are concerned that martial art's practice would conflict with their faith to speak to the instructor beforehand to ask questions and clarify. In some few cases, school practices DO conflict with some religious beliefs. Under those circumstances, it is best to find a different school for yourself. I think of the standard enter/exit on the mat bow as similiar to the military salute and complety different than the bowing down done before idols. Some schools even call it the "salute".


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## Carol

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Find a different school for yourself.


 
Naturally, I did, and the school that I decided to join is amazing.  I thought I'd enjoy my study (through the pain) but I never expected that I would love MA as much as I have.  I would not trade the last 6 months for the world.  

Now that I've earned my yellow belt and I'm somewhat over my oh-my-God-I'm-so-lost stage, I'm curious as to what other schools do...how they are similar to mine, how they are different.  I like learning about other religions for the same reason.   It's a fascinating world out there.





			
				Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I think of the standard enter/exit on the mat bow as similiar to the military salute and complety different than the bowing down done before idols. Some schools even call it the "salute"


 
I don't have an issue with the entry/exit bow either...at least, not the way it is done at my school.  I can't remember seeing a flag on display at my school...so bowing to it a flag was never an issue.

How are students asked to bow before a flag?   Are students asked to stand before a flag and bow?  Or is a flag positioned in such a way (example:  over the mat entryway) that students must bow under it?

I have never seen this actually done, I've just seen it mentioned on the rules page of a dojo's website.  I'm still curious as to whether this is a common practice or not...which was the purpose of my original post.


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## Jonathan Randall

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> How are students asked to bow before a flag? Are students asked to stand before a flag and bow? Or is a flag positioned in such a way (example: over the mat entryway) that students must bow under it?
> 
> I have never seen this actually done, I've just seen it mentioned on the rules page of a dojo's website. I'm still curious as to whether this is a common practice or not...which was the purpose of my original post.


 
Many Korean Dojangs, in my experience, have students bow to the Korean flag - and often the American as well. Many non-Korean schools bow to the American flag. Bowing to the founder of the art (as some schools do) is more problematic for some faiths, though, IMO. 

I'm glad that you are enjoying your training and welcome again to Martial Talk!


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## Marginal

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> I apologize, I should clarify. I'm very new to martial arts and have very little understanding of how different schools are run. I apologize for bringing my personal stance in the situaion, I'm afraid that it may have given the impression that I have some sort of agenda or reason to inflict my beliefs on others...where I absolutely do not.


 
The conclusion still strikes me as odd (I spent a considerable amount of time growing up hearing about the 10 commandments, the golden calf etc but I never thought saluting the flag was idol worship.) but I wasn't offended. It's a common perception. (Like that dad and daughter team that sued some MA org because they were required to bow to the mat.) Which I honestly do not understand.

There are also incarnations of fundie Christianity that claim that doing any form of MA at all is a terrible sin as it takes one's attention away from God, and anything less than total devotion allows Satan to mislead them. I don't understand that interpretation of the Bible any better. (Shrug) 



> I was just curious as to whether bowing to the flag was a commonplace. So far, I have seen one school that has such a practice and another school that doesn't. I was hoping for a perspective that included........more than two schools


 
We salute the flag before we start class. We also salute the instructor. We end in similar fashion. There's respect there, but it's not intended as worship.


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## celtic_crippler

We do not bow to the flag in our school. However, I would not have a problem with it as it does not represent any diety. I would consider it a sign of respect rather than submission. 

I wouldn't read too much into it. Unless you are directly instructed to give up your religion, abandon your God, or otherwise compromise your beliefs... I wouldn't worry about it. =)


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## Shaolinwind

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her.


 
You know, your opinion is not so uncommon.  I attended a grade school in Scranton PA that strictly forbid the pledge of alliegance for the very same reason.  

I know that many arts have a military heritage.. Military is based on structure and loyalty to the country one serves.  It makes perfect sense to me that many schools have you bow in a direction of the flag.  The flag represents structure. Structure demands discipline.  And discipline is how you thrive as a martial artist.


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## Kacey

You are not the only person to have this problem - although Judaism also forbids idol worship, although neither I (as a Reform Jew) nor some of my former students who are Orthodox Jewish (very observant) ever interpreted it that way.  As an instructor, I've had more problems with people being uncertain about meditation than with bowing - although, except at a very few schools, meditation is no more religious than saluting a flag; it is intended to clear your mind of the day's events at the beginning, and allow you to set new information from class in your mind at the end.  To go back to the flag, however, I agree with those posters who said that saluting the flag (whether with a bow, or with a salute such as placing one's hand on one's heart) is a demonstration of respect, and has nothing to do with worship.

Congratulations on finding a school that fits your needs and beliefs, and please, keep asking such questions.  For every person who does ask, there are many others who have the same question and don't ask, and are now grateful to you for asking their question for them.


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## Carol

Marginal said:
			
		

> The conclusion still strikes me as odd (I spent a considerable amount of time growing up hearing about the 10 commandments, the golden calf etc but I never thought saluting the flag was idol worship.) but I wasn't offended. It's a common perception. (Like that dad and daughter team that sued some MA org because they were required to bow to the mat.) Which I honestly do not understand.
> 
> There are also incarnations of fundie Christianity that claim that doing any form of MA at all is a terrible sin as it takes one's attention away from God, and anything less than total devotion allows Satan to mislead them. I don't understand that interpretation of the Bible any better. (Shrug)


 
I respect Christianity, much like I respect other religions and spiritual journeys.  I think Christianity is a beautiful faith. 

I do not feel that it is my place to interfere with your study or any other Christian study.  I don't mind that you feel that my beliefs are odd, you are certainly not the first Christian that I have met to express such an opinion.

I'm not sure what your experience with other non-Christians is, but just because I do not follow your faith or believe with the same mechanics that you do does not mean I am evil or disrespectful of what you do or what you believe.  In fact, it is just the opposite.  I am very supportive of your path. 

There have been several instances where enforced bowing before an object has been used by Mughals as a form of belittlement and ridicule, and a way to begin a forced conversion to Islam.  This may be inconsequential to you, or even  silly.  You may think I'm a fool for paying attention to my history.  But, it is my path, and that is fine.  

However, if you are targeting me as a person that must follow your Christian ways and idea structures, I would like to kindly and respectfully ask you to direct your energy to a person other than me.

I don't believe that anyone should have their path denigrated, belittled, or disrepspected, even if I don't believe in it. 

If you or anyone else does not believe that I cannot stop you.  

But I do not think that showing such direspect and intolerance is the right thing to do.  However, that's just my values.  You have the right to believe whatever you like.


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## Carol

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> You know, your opinion is not so uncommon. I attended a grade school in Scranton PA that strictly forbid the pledge of alliegance for the very same reason.
> 
> I know that many arts have a military heritage.. Military is based on structure and loyalty to the country one serves. It makes perfect sense to me that many schools have you bow in a direction of the flag. The flag represents structure. Structure demands discipline. And discipline is how you thrive as a martial artist.


 
My faith also commands such structure and loyalty.  No other world religion has a faith whose martial heritage is as visible than that of Sikhism.  It is present in our 5 gifts of faith, that give us the appearance of a warrior ready for battle.  It is present in the symbol of our faith, the Khanda, that is made from _shastras _(swords) stacked on top of one another.

Shaolin, please forgive me, but there is one crucial element to military structure that has been omitted form your description...and that is a universal commitment to doing what is right.  The Sikhs that helped drive the Mughals and their tyranny out of Panjab, they were not loyal to enforced Islam an the torture/murder of those that did not believe.  The brave souls that started this country were not loyal to the Union Jack or to the King of England.  

Structure demands discipline.  Structure can also be used for good, but it can also be used for evil.

It was a unified sense of rightiousness, freedom, and *RESPECT FOR OTHERS THAT MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN ONESELF* that is the difference between a military that is worthy of respect, and a military that is used to tyrranize.

There are many military aspects that martial artists DO NOT follow.  We do not wear our uniform while in public.  We do not show our rank.  We are not easily identifyable.   We keep our skills clandestine.   When we are in public, our appearance is closer to that of a freedom-fighting insurgent than a highly organized legion of our country's defenders.

What seperates us from criminals, us from street fighters, us from terrorists is the tradition of responsibility that we choose to bear when learning our art.  And to know that responsibility requires knowing our history.  

I choose to know my history, and to respect it...whether that history is that of my country, my faith, or my art.  Please forgive me if I have said anything wrong or insulting.

Bowing in respect and humility,

Carol Kaur


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## Marginal

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> I respect Christianity, much like I respect other religions and spiritual journeys. I think Christianity is a beautiful faith.
> 
> I do not feel that it is my place to interfere with your study or any other Christian study. I don't mind that you feel that my beliefs are odd, you are certainly not the first Christian that I have met to express such an opinion.


 
It was just a few examples of conflict with MA with a religion that I'm familiar with. Not all ideas deserve equal consideration, nor do all ideas and paths bear equal merit or time. The last example I gave (the one about practicing any MA being evil) is the domain of the nutball regardless of faith.


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## evenflow1121

I ve seen it quite common, but not all hope is lost for you, there are schools out there that dont require bowing to flags.  However, bare in mind that you can not escape the cultural experience that comes with martial arts, that said, you may have to bow or show allegiance to something or other even if not a flag.  Something you may want to discuss with the school's instructor perhaps she or he can exempt you from that based on your beliefs.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> When I was looking for a dojo to join, I found one that had a rule that concerned me. The dojo required students to bow to the flag upon entering and leaving the school.
> 
> This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her.
> 
> How common is a rule like this? Is it found in other dojos?


 
Ah yes, conflict between traditions. I have some Muslim friends who quits our Dojo because they don't want to bow to the sensei or to each other. But we remain friends and they still respect the sensei. Sensei respect their decisions too btw.

Speaking of flags. In sensei's home dojo, he has this large flag with his Jujutsu ryu's emblem on it. We bow to the flag upon the Shomen ni Rei command before and after practice. Being a Muslim myself, I am very strictly monotheist and hates idolatry. So I ask sensei, "is this some kind of worship?". sensei said "no, by bowing to the flag, you show respect to the ryuha/school and all its members. Just think as if you are saying hello and wishing well to all members of the ryuha. Because the flag is the symbol of the school, its ideals, and all of its members".

I think his explanations makes sense


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## arnisador

Many schools do this with the US flag and the flag of t he art's country of origin given equal respect. I find it pretty common. 

Indeed, as mentioned, to compare a Japanese-style salutation to bowing in religion reverence is a misunderstanding. See also this thread.


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## celtic_crippler

Old Glory is the physical representation of the freedom afforded to all, including the freedom to choose their own religion and practice it freely. No other country allows for such vast freedoms, especially where religion is concerned. I don't see why anyone would have a problem showing respect for that. IMHO


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## Rich Parsons

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> When I was looking for a dojo to join, I found one that had a rule that concerned me. The dojo required students to bow to the flag upon entering and leaving the school.
> 
> This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her.
> 
> How common is a rule like this?  Is it found in other dojos?



In the Co-op style dojo we train out of, there is this same issue of bowing before and leaving the training area. So our class does it also. We have a salute to the Flag(s) and a mutual bow between the students and instructors. This is how we run our school. Not right not wrong. When some have looked at me, I say, think about the bow, and the salute  as simple respect to the US Flag.

No I have some questions for you. 

Have you ever attended a sporting event in the US? Ever put your hand over your heart while the National Anthem is played? Ever say the pledge of alliagence? 

Would you rise for the President of the United States Entering a room?

Like you mentioned and some others in this thread, there is respect, and then there is religion or philosphy. 

In believe in Kenpo, you place one hand over the other. Is this not a saulte and a sign or respect? Does this not also conflict with your faith as a bow would? Or was it explained to you in a manner where it did not conflict? Would this not mean that the next time you run into this situation, that if you ask questions, you can get more information, to base you decision on? If they ask you to bow to Buddha, then you can decide not too. If you are bowing to the sweat and determination of those on the matts, and your own training coming up or just over, then it might be ok. Eventually only the individual can decide. 

Peace


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## Danny T

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> When I was looking for a dojo to join, I found one that had a rule that concerned me. The dojo required students to bow to the flag upon entering and leaving the school.
> 
> This was one of the reasons why I did not join...my faith speaks strongly against the worship of idols, and as much as I deeply respect Old Glory, I can't bow to her.
> 
> How common is a rule like this? Is it found in other dojos?


 
lady_kaur,
I for one understand your concern. At our training center we ask all to show respect for the training area and members as well as our National Flag. We do not ask anyone to bow to any flag or person but we do require Respect for each other, the training area, and the flag of the USA. We do ask all citizens of the USA to stand and pledge alligence to the Flag of the USA and what it stands for but of no other flag. The only persons we do not require this of are persons not citizens of the USA. However we ask them to stand in respect of all the others.The arts we train in come from the experiences of other people and we give respect to them not their countries nor their flags. We ask all to show Respect to and for each other. This creates an environment of mutual concern for each individual and each others growth and not superiority of rank or person. We do not regard one's rank as being superior only of having been in the system longer and therefore has greater knowledge and skill. Not a better person or of higher status. I do not, have not, nor will ever require members to bow to a flag, or to any other person but some sign of respect simply because we are equal in being human and willing to work to be a martial artist will always be required. I salute and encourage all who have come before me and those who are now training and working to become better persons as well as martial artists.

Danny Terrell
Progressive Martial Arts Training Center
New Iberia, La.  USA


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## DavidCC

The Japanese use bowing as a greeting.

The British bow and curtsy as a show of respect.

Muslims bow as part of their prayers.

bending your body slightly at the waist has no innate meaning other than "the angel between my upper and lowr body has changed".  Any other meaning it might have is added to it in your own mind. So for those of us who do not have bowing as part of their religous tradition, these kind of issues seem odd.  Maybe we oculd get a sense of hwo you fel iof we thought about what it would be like if we were told to "kneel before the flag.  Kneel before your instructor"  Kneeling has more religous connotations to Christians than bowing does.

Maybe if the exact same gesture was called "salute" would it be a problem?

I believe that God is more "concerned" with the intent of my heart and mind rather than the particular arrangement of my body parts at any given time.


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## kenpojujitsu

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> I apologize, I should clarify. I'm very new to martial arts and have very little understanding of how different schools are run. I apologize for bringing my personal stance in the situaion, I'm afraid that it may have given the impression that I have some sort of agenda or reason to inflict my beliefs on others...where I absolutely do not.
> 
> I was just curious as to whether bowing to the flag was a commonplace. So far, I have seen one school that has such a practice and another school that doesn't. I was hoping for a perspective that included........more than two schools
> 
> I'm also new to this board, if this was an inappropriate or disrespectful thing to ask, please forgive me.


 
It was not wrong in any way for you to ask.
This question comes up often and is mainly due to a misunderstanding.
The tradition of bowing in the Asian martial arts is a customary way of showing respect and has nothing to do with worship. 
It is mainly a Korean custom to bow to the flag.  There may be some other schools that do this.

Tae Kwon Do and other Korean arts are highly nationalistic.  In Korea they bow to the flag to show thier patriotism.  Not because they look to the flag as some sort of religious idol.  American instructors do it just out of tradition and habit.

In Japanse Martial Arts it is common to open class with "bowing ceremonies".  Often the command "Shinzen ni rei" is first - this can be a problem for some because it is a bow to the gods, usually directed towards a shrine at the front of the dojo.  In a lot of classes there is no shrine and the command "shomen ni rei" (bow to the front) is used.  This is just a way of showing respect for the school in general.
Bowing to other people is nothing more than a show of respect, or as a sustitute for shaking hands upon greeting or leaving or just to be polite.


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## kenpojujitsu

DavidCC said:
			
		

> "the angel between my upper and lowr body has changed".


 
I think ANGLE was meant here.  
Having angels in the middle of your body would pretty much rule out an absence of religious symbolism in the class.

Sorry.  I just couldn't resist. 
We all make typos.


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## aplonis

I won't recite the Pledge of Allegience because it seems like promising in advance to do things not yet defined such as go off and kill total strangers just to secure the ongoing profits of yet another group of equally total strangers. 

But I don't have any problem at all with showing respect in a general way by inclining myself in its direction.


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## Carol

I need to first apologize for the tone that I used in some of my earlier posts, and I hope that I did not offend anyone with some of my responses.

This took a lot of introspection and meditation.  What I face is perhaps a little different because bowing is very much a part of my faith and to an extent, part of my culture...much like Martial Arts (the Sikhs have very proud martial traditions.)  It is, like Jujistsu_Indonesia (Assalam Alaikam!) said, a clash of not cultures, but traditions.

It is this intertwining that causes the conflict in my mind.  There are so many connections.  Bowing to a partner never bothered me, likely because this is an exchage, an interaction.  But when I bow in to my school, I feel something change within me.  It is a very powerful movement for me to make.  I can't help but remember the Almighty, because that is what I do when I bow during my worship.

To salute Old Glory with feels misplaced...much like saluting a partner with my hand over my heart instead of a bow would also feel misplaced.

I spent a lot of time meditating on this, trying to work out something that felt more in sync with my beliefs.

What made the difference was trying to work out a trip to a dojo in another country.  What would I do if the dojo displayed the flag of their country?  The country, and the dojo, are kind enough to host me.  Naturally, I would want to show some kind of respect in return.

But what do I do?  I can't say the pledge, that is for my own beloved flag.  Do I put my hand on my heart?   How do I know if that is an appropriate gesture?  

And that made all the difference, because it lead me to understand how a bow is a powerfully *neutral* gesture.  I may not know a country's traditions, it's ways, or even it's language.   By saluting their flag with a bow, I can communicate my respect and my gratitude to my host country, my host school, its instructors and students.  

If I can salute another country's flag with a bow, I can certainly salute Old Glory with a bow.  

It will undoubtedly take me some time until I can work all of the nagging doubts out of my brain....especially where my own school doesn't practice this gesture...but I am certainly at the point where if I do salute a flag with a bow, it will be not out of obligation, but with full love and respect.  

I really appreciate the input from all of you....without you, I would have had a much more difficult time trying to make sense of it all.  

Thank you all so very much!


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## jujutsu_indonesia

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> Jujistsu_Indonesia (Assalam Alaikam!) I really appreciate the input from all of you....without you, I would have had a much more difficult time trying to make sense of it all.
> 
> Thank you all so very much!


 
Assalam Alaikam wa Rahmat Allahi wa Barakatuh! Thank  you for the blessings 
:asian:


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## TigerWoman

I used to have a problem with bowing to the Korean flag as my allegiance is to the US.  I don't equate the flag of our nation- a symbol as a idol which connotates worship.  I don't worship the nation but I will fight for our nation and respect it's flag.  But the Korean flag was taken down in our dojang soon after I joined because the Christian master didn't like the yin/yang symbol.  Not to get into that again. 

We bow in when we enter the exercise area and when we leave. We also bow to the flag at the beginning of class and at the end. We also are "supposed to" bow as a colored belt to black belts.  We bow to the master when he enters the room. Bowing is supposed to show respect not worship. But it still is alot of bowing. TW


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