# FDNY Hiring In Limbo



## MJS (Jan 13, 2011)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41023936/ns/us_news-life/



> NEW YORK  Paul Washington is a New York City firefighter, like his dad and his uncle before him. His brother is also on the job. Some of his cousins are firefighters, too.
> Family legacies aren't unusual in the Fire Department of New York, but the Washingtons are  because they are black. And the nation's largest fire department remains an overwhelmingly white force.
> But a federal lawsuit, a court order and a revamped application system are offering a glimmer of a future in which the FDNY could become as diverse as the population it serves  a goal other big-city departments have already achieved.
> In a city of 8 million where more than half the population belongs to a racial or ethnic minority, only 9 percent of the 11,200 uniformed firefighters are black or Hispanic.
> "This is New York City," said Washington, the catalyst for a federal hiring-discrimination lawsuit against the city. "We're the most diverse, interesting place in the world, and our other city agencies reflect that, so why shouldn't the Fire Department?"


 
I also found this interesting:



> Jamel Nicholson, 35, who is black, took the exam in 2002, scoring nearly perfect on the physical exam and getting a 74 percent on the written exam. He waited in vain, though, and instead ended up a subway conductor.


 


> "This test isn't proving who's the best for the job  this test is proving who got a good education," Washington said. "There's an education gap in this country, and everybody knows it. So to pretend, after 12 years of bad schooling, there's a level playing field and telling them to sit down and compete  it's disingenuous."


 
While I understand that the FDNY should be a EOE, I do think that having an education and being capable of answering test questions, isn't much to ask.  Now, I dont know what the FDNY test looks like, but I have seen numerous PD tests.  Basic problem solving questions, common sense questions, basic math, and grammer/spelling, have all been part of the test.  Now, unless things greatly differ, I certainly dont consider those things SAT material. 

So, going on just the article, I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others.  Do you think this hiring process is fair?


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## CanuckMA (Jan 13, 2011)

We can't form a true opinion unless we know what percentage of *applicants* are Hispanic or black. And then see if the acceptance rate is in line with other groups. 9% of the force is a small number, but if that group also comprises 9% of applicants, then it's in line.


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## Carol (Jan 13, 2011)

I have my doubts about whether it is fair.  The story contrasts a fellow with a near-perfect physical test but a 74 on the written exam where I assume 80 is passing.

By contrast, some time ago I went looking for kettlebell routines online and found a blog of a very literate person who was working with kettlebells (among other things) with a goal of getting on with the local FD.  The blogger failed the physical part of the exam.  It sounded like he didn't fail by much, but he still failed.

If I need someone to cut me out of a wrecked car before some oncoming traffic crushes me in to oblivion, or if I need someone that can heft me out of a burning structure....then I'll take the more physical person over the more intellectual person any day of the week.  

Perhaps it is time to consider a different paradigm?


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## MJS (Jan 13, 2011)

Carol said:


> I have my doubts about whether it is fair. The story contrasts a fellow with a near-perfect physical test but a 74 on the written exam where I assume 80 is passing.
> 
> By contrast, some time ago I went looking for kettlebell routines online and found a blog of a very literate person who was working with kettlebells (among other things) with a goal of getting on with the local FD. The blogger failed the physical part of the exam. It sounded like he didn't fail by much, but he still failed.
> 
> ...


 
While I do see your point, if I were to play Devils advocate for a moment, if I were in a car accident, in serious condition, I'd want a doctor treating me, who had more intellect than physical strength.  

To continue...lets say that the FD relaxes their standards a bit.  Now, that same FF that wasn't as book smart as he is strong, now wants to take a promotional exam for LT.  This is a man that will now be making more decisions and have more responsibilities than the regular FF.  He'll have to know more about firefighting.  In this case, I'd want the one who is more booksmart than strong.


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## seasoned (Jan 13, 2011)

I feel that based on the occupations mentioned, if there are certain standards that are required, then those standards should be adhered to. Leveling the playing field IMO, does not equate to the specific abilities required to fulfill the above jobs. Sophisticated, and very specific equipment used to save lives, and the ability to make split second decisions, would take a certain individual, capable of functioning at a very high level of proficiency. By lowering the standards set in place, IMO, hinders the ability to place individuals within occupations that work at a very high level of aptitude. I say bring people up to a certain level, not lower expectation, so as to breed lethargy.


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## Carol (Jan 13, 2011)

MJS said:


> While I do see your point, if I were to play Devils advocate for a moment, if I were in a car accident, in serious condition, I'd want a doctor treating me, who had more intellect than physical strength.



Me too!   But doctors are also graded rigorously on their intellect and less on their physical ability.   A great doctor can practice medicine from a wheelchair....



> To continue...lets say that the FD relaxes their standards a bit.  Now, that same FF that wasn't as book smart as he is strong, now wants to take a promotional exam for LT.  This is a man that will now be making more decisions and have more responsibilities than the regular FF.  He'll have to know more about firefighting.  In this case, I'd want the one who is more booksmart than strong.


And the FF who has to stand up to city hall to negotiate with the mayor is someone that should also be booksmart, as does the arson investigator.  There is room for both types, is there not?   

My niece is an example of a person who is not very book smart.  However, she is a fine MP in the U.S. Army.  She has set a goal of being a Warrant Officer someday, I suspect she will need to hone up her academic side more if she wants to achieve that goal.

Isn't there also room for improvement, for the FFs that are not as strong academically?  I know I could train and train and train and never be strong enough to be a firefighter.  But I can study and learn a lot of new things.  

Firefighters can have downtime at the station.  To me that sounds prime for opportunities for the not-so-booksmart folks to improve their academics.  And if they cannot improve their academics, then they cannot be promoted.

I'm not suggesting that we hire firefighters that are bloody idiots.  There needs to be a brain in there that functions a bit better than the guy in the Planet Fitness commercial that lifts things up and puts them down :lol:


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Jan 14, 2011)

Working in law enforcement as a supervisor I have some insight into this issue from that end and from speaking and dealing with firefighters.

First, from a law enforcement perspective I can tell you that I would rather have, to reverse what one sergeant was complaing about, a smart guy rather then one who could take a punch.  The reason being that you can't fix stupid.  I can't make a guy read a book, but if I punch him enough times, he will likely learn to defend himself, or if I run him ragged, he will get in shape.  Or he'll quit.  

More officers get into trouble due to dumb decision rather than a lack of physical ability.  And one I can actually have a decent chance of improving versus another.

In regards to firefighting, it is not merely a physical endeavor.  You may want a big, strapping lad to take you out of your car, but chances are he's gonna have to use some tools and a bit of strategy to get you out.  If he can lift the jaws of life, but doesn't know where to put it, it's kinda useless.  

I also want to mention the fact that firefighters are complaining nowadays that most of the calls for service that they receive are for medical situation, not for fires.  In this country, except for forest fire, safety standards for buildings are such that it is very hard to actually get killed in one, unless they are not up to modern code requirements.  

Also, as I have run into burning buildings to save people before, where me and my team were responsible for saving over a dozen lives before the fire department showed up, it's a thinking man's game.  You don't just rush into a burning building saying, "Is anybody there?"

So I don't think that the paradigm should shift.  The testing for the job should be such that it considers both the cognitive and physical aspects which will a firefighter will have to confront.


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## Carol (Jan 14, 2011)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Also, as I have run into burning buildings to save people before, where me and my team were responsible for saving over a dozen lives before the fire department showed up, it's a thinking man's game.  You don't just rush into a burning building saying, "Is anybody there?"



If you don't mind a slight thread derailment sir -- I understand you are saying this as experiential, and not to toot your own horn.  

However -- a Kenpo instructor that I admire in the Torrance area told me you have earned a medal of bravery for your rescue of those people from the burning building.    Its been some months but I hope if you don't mind me extending a heartfelt congratulations and thanks to you and your team for your service.  :asian:


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## elder999 (Jan 14, 2011)

When they started hiring women, they had to change the physical standards-the test they were doing at the time was determined to not actually test actual ability to be _trained_ to physically do the job as such, and was also determined to be prejudicial towards women

Of course, that was 30 odd years ago, and no one is surprised by woman firefighters anymore-or has any doubts about their ability to do the job.

Likewise, it's entirely possible that the academic testing isn't testing so much for ability to be _trained_ to mentally do the job  as such.

Don't want any dummy firefighters-firefighting is a _science_, but they don't have to be the smartest guys in the world, or even the building. Likewise, they don't all have to be EMTs..


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is a link for a sample for FDNY's written test:

http://firelink.monster.com/videos/quizzes/9-train-like-the-fdny-practice-written-exam

It seems pretty straighforward to me, and all job related.


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## jks9199 (Jan 14, 2011)

Carol said:


> I have my doubts about whether it is fair.  The story contrasts a fellow with a near-perfect physical test but a 74 on the written exam where I assume 80 is passing.
> 
> By contrast, some time ago I went looking for kettlebell routines online and found a blog of a very literate person who was working with kettlebells (among other things) with a goal of getting on with the local FD.  The blogger failed the physical part of the exam.  It sounded like he didn't fail by much, but he still failed.
> 
> ...


Modern firefighting is much more than a physical job; there's lots more than just spraying water onto the fire.  It's highly technical, and constantly changing.

I don't know if the FDNY process was fair or not.  There's too much missing in the reporting, as others have been pointing out.  And it's not mentioning things like the effects of veteran's preferences...  I know in some places, a non-veteran civil service applicant NEEDS perfect scores to compete once they factor all the veteran's preferences in.  (I'm not saying veteran's preferences are wrong, just pointing out that they can really skew the lists.)


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2011)

Carol said:


> Me too!  But doctors are also graded rigorously on their intellect and less on their physical ability. A great doctor can practice medicine from a wheelchair....
> 
> And the FF who has to stand up to city hall to negotiate with the mayor is someone that should also be booksmart, as does the arson investigator. There is room for both types, is there not?
> 
> ...


 
I think its crazy alot of the time, when people require a college degree for a job.  There are PDs here in CT that require a degree.  My question is why?  That paper isn't going to do jack for them, at 2am, when they're on a mv stop, and the driver gets out of the car and starts fighting.  

I'm not saying that every LEO or FF needs to have a masters degree, but simply a HS diploma and be capable of reading, writing, spelling, understanding the English language and speaking it properly.  Obviously those spelling questions are there for a reason on those tests. LOL.  

If people are complaining that the entry test is too hard, will those same people complain if they want to move up the ladder, no pun intended, and take the LT exam?  Will they ***** because thats too hard?  Seems to me, that many who want to take these tests are taking them because they're good paying jobs yet their education level sucks.  

Yes, FFs have alot of downtime at the station.  So, if they can study up for a promotional exam, why can't the average joe put forth the effort?  Why make it easy for them to get in, and then make them have to bust their *** for a promo?  They should be busting their *** from day 1.  As an example, I'll use that cop here in CT that was drunk, off duty, and hit and killed a kid on a bike.  I posted the thread here.  He was dropped from a number of PDs before he got hired...where daddy worked.  Hmm...go figure.  Kid was too stupid to make it everywhere else, but daddy pulled some strings.  Same thing here.  No free passes.

If they can't pass a simple entry level test, are they going to be capable of comprehending the fire academy?  If they can, then IMO, theres no reason not to be able to pass the test, without crying its too hard.


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2011)

elder999 said:


> When they started hiring women, they had to change the physical standards-the test they were doing at the time was determined to not actually test actual ability to be _trained_ to physically do the job as such, and was also determined to be prejudicial towards women
> 
> Of course, that was 30 odd years ago, and no one is surprised by woman firefighters anymore-or has any doubts about their ability to do the job.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, thats correct..the standards are different, depending on sex, and age.  At 37, I'll have more time for my run, than a 21yo, yet a 37yo female will have more time than I.  OTOH, I'm still going to have to fight the same 280lb, 6'3 drunk that the female will.  So, I suppose it begs the question....if we'll both have to deal with the same suspect on the street, why make the test standards different?  Yet the handful of female FFs in the city in which I work, dont seem to have any issues.


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2011)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Here is a link for a sample for FDNY's written test:
> 
> http://firelink.monster.com/videos/quizzes/9-train-like-the-fdny-practice-written-exam
> 
> It seems pretty straighforward to me, and all job related.


 
Yup, those are the same basic questions that I've seen on LE exams.  Obviously the questions are LE related, but the same general idea.  IMHO, those are not difficult questions.  They're common sense questions.


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## billc (Jan 14, 2011)

In the towns surrounding cities, Like the one I am in, All firefighters must be paramedics as well as firefighters.  There are more calls for chest pains then for actual fires in these localities.


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## jks9199 (Jan 14, 2011)

MJS said:


> Yes, thats correct..the standards are different, depending on sex, and age.  At 37, I'll have more time for my run, than a 21yo, yet a 37yo female will have more time than I.  OTOH, I'm still going to have to fight the same 280lb, 6'3 drunk that the female will.  So, I suppose it begs the question....if we'll both have to deal with the same suspect on the street, why make the test standards different?  Yet the handful of female FFs in the city in which I work, dont seem to have any issues.


I don't agree with different physical ability or agility standards, unless they are also linked to job tasks.  A detective does not necessarily need the same level of fitness as a patrol officer and a fire department administrator does not need the same fitness level as the guy or gal on the end of the hose.  But, for the same job, the same standards should apply.  I've never seen a bad guy look at the cop that's chasing him, do the calculus to say "that's a female, in her 30s... I need to run slower."

If it's a job related test or standard, whether physical or mental -- it should be the same for everyone in the job.


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## Carol (Jan 14, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Modern firefighting is much more than a physical job; there's lots more than just spraying water onto the fire.  It's highly technical, and constantly changing.



Apparantly more than I realized!  After reviewing the practice test that 5-0 posted, there is a lot more to the analytics that I realized.  Analytics are not an education. They are the result of an application of an education -- some kind of education has to be there at some level to begin with.  

I learn so much by discussing and wondering


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Jan 15, 2011)

MJS said:


> Yes, thats correct..the standards are different, depending on sex, and age. At 37, I'll have more time for my run, than a 21yo, yet a 37yo female will have more time than I. OTOH, I'm still going to have to fight the same 280lb, 6'3 drunk that the female will. So, I suppose it begs the question....if we'll both have to deal with the same suspect on the street, why make the test standards different? Yet the handful of female FFs in the city in which I work, dont seem to have any issues.


 
I've actually thought about this question.  I wonder if it may have something to do with the idea that it is understood that you fitness will decrease as you get older, so the standards are higher then they actually need to be for entrance so that as you get older you will then still be capable to perform.


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## billc (Jan 15, 2011)

Having someone in the fire department or police department is really a need for someone, with all the other qualities, with good judgement and a calm bearing under intense stress.  On the job, working with people day in and day out, you learn who has these qualities first hand.  Knowing the people with these qualities would make it easier to know who to hire and who to promote to positions of higher responsibiltiy.  
The problem is that the twenty something applicant is at the initial hire point is a complete unknown.  Wisdom and judgement cannot be garnered through most tests, and then you throw in the gender and race politics that go into big and little city hiring processes and it becomes even murkier.  They have to take the tops in both the physical and the standard written test, just in the hope that they can get the people with wisdom and judgement on top of the raw physical and mental abiltiy to do the job.  Wisdom and judgement do not always reveal themselves in a written test,  but incompetence and immaturity don't reveal themselves with a really good test either.  
I guess in this imperfect system you have to take the best scores on both aspects of the test and hope for the best.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Jan 15, 2011)

The best indicator of future performance is past performance.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2011)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Here is a link for a sample for FDNY's written test:
> 
> http://firelink.monster.com/videos/quizzes/9-train-like-the-fdny-practice-written-exam
> 
> It seems pretty straighforward to me, and all job related.


 
So, going on the sample test, does anyone feel that the FDNY is being unfair in its selection process?  If a lawsuit were to happen, and no doubt it will, does anyone thing it'll hold in court?


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## Carol (Jan 17, 2011)

MJS said:


> So, going on the sample test, does anyone feel that the FDNY is being unfair in its selection process?  If a lawsuit were to happen, and no doubt it will, does anyone thing it'll hold in court?



I think a court case is likely and will be bloody as hell and will likely look at the entire paradigm.  

The uncomfortable question is...what role the entrance requirements are serving?  Do they accurately cover the absolute minimum requirements that an entrant must have to be a successful firefighter today and in the coming years?  Or, are they more of a tool used to justify the salary of a firefighter?  

The first responders here are saying the former is accurate.  But will a judge see the same?


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2011)

Carol said:


> 1) I think a court case is likely and will be bloody as hell and will likely look at the entire paradigm.
> 
> 2) The uncomfortable question is...what role the entrance requirements are serving? Do they accurately cover the absolute minimum requirements that an entrant must have to be a successful firefighter today and in the coming years? Or, are they more of a tool used to justify the salary of a firefighter?
> 
> 3) The first responders here are saying the former is accurate. But will a judge see the same?


 
1) Sad but true.

2) IMHO, the tests are testing (no pun intended ) the basic common sense of the testee.  I've taken a number of LE tests, and the questions are the same as we saw here, obviously geared to LE work.  I'd imagine, much like a LE test, there will be a physical agility test, background, polygraph, etc.  If those are passed, then the 'real' training begins in the academy.  Of course, the common sense aspect carries over there as well.  One would assume that if you make it that far, you're on the road to a start of a new career, although it may never happen.  IMO, I really dont think that the testis being used to determine the pay scale.  

3) We could only hope.  I'm looking forward to the outcome of this, should it go to court.  What this sounds to me, is that you have people who see jobs like a firefighter, leo, etc, as high paying, stable jobs.  However, there are some people that probably just aren't cut out for the job.  I mean, if you cant solve simple word problems, spell correctly, etc., are these the people that you want to respond and attempt to save your life, put out a fire, etc?  If they can't handle the test, I question whether they can handle the stress of the real deal.


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## billc (Jan 17, 2011)

On a funny side note, the comedian and talk show host Adam Corolla, author of the book, "In fify years we'll all be chicks,"  talked about the fire department exam he wanted to take when he was 19.  He walked in and was told they weren't taking applications but they would put his name on a waiting list.  Nine years later he was informed of his test date.


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