# Zu help oR not zu help - zat is ze qwestjon...



## MaartenSFS (Jun 24, 2007)

If you saw someone in a dangerous situation, and it looked genuine, would you unconditionaly take it upon yourself to resolve the matter if they were a...

1) man

2) olde man/woman

3) child

4) handicapped individual

5) and/or young woman?


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 24, 2007)

To answer my own question:

1) Man - **** no. I believe that it every mans' function to know some form of MA to protect the weak. 

2) Olde man/woman - If it looks genuine, absolutely. That is just so wrong. Some people have no honour.

3) Child - This one is tricky. Some children have been corrupted to the point where they are far worse (and deceitful) than adults. If the child is really in danger, though, there could be nothing more awful than knowing that the innocent lifeless cadaver lying before me on the ground could have been spared from an untimely demise.

4) Handicapped individual - In many countries the handicapped people you see dragging themselves along the ground on little carts did something to deserve what they got. I feel no pity for them whatsoever, though again, if someone pushes a man in a wheelchair down a flight of stairs for giggles and  ***** I can't stand by idly.

5) Young woman? These can be deceptive as well. If I was single: Absobloodylutely - every time.  Wouldn't you? But, as I am not, I would be cautious about this one.


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## Tez3 (Jun 24, 2007)

If it looked genuine yes in every case. I would rather help and be wrong than not help. The quality of mercy is not strained.......


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## jks9199 (Jun 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> To answer my own question:
> 
> 1) Man - **** no. I believe that it every mans' function to know some form of MA to protect the weak.
> 
> ...


 
Why should any of that matter if anyone was truly in danger?
You don't describe the situation -- but your explanation of your reasoning suggests that they're being attacked; would your answers change if they were walking underneath a piano that's about to fall?  Stepping off the curb in front an on-coming car?

You explanations are self-serving, at best.  They seem to be simply there to explain why you don't help anyone (except maybe cute young ladies...).  To me -- the simple question is "Is this person in danger?  Can I help them with reasonable safety to myself and those entrusted to my care?  And without creating a bigger, more dangerous situation?"  If so -- then my personal moral and professional duty is to help, not stand idly by.  Even if I can't intervene directly, I can still get help started by calling 911 (or the equivalent number).


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## Kacey (Jun 24, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> If it looked genuine yes in every case. I would rather help and be wrong than not help. The quality of mercy is not strained.......





jks9199 said:


> Why should any of that matter if anyone was truly in danger?
> You don't describe the situation -- but your explanation of your reasoning suggests that they're being attacked; would your answers change if they were walking underneath a piano that's about to fall?  Stepping off the curb in front an on-coming car?
> 
> You explanations are self-serving, at best.  They seem to be simply there to explain why you don't help anyone (except maybe cute young ladies...).  To me -- the simple question is "Is this person in danger?  Can I help them with reasonable safety to myself and those entrusted to my care?  And without creating a bigger, more dangerous situation?"  If so -- then my personal moral and professional duty is to help, not stand idly by.  Even if I can't intervene directly, I can still get help started by calling 911 (or the equivalent number).



I agree with what they said - the _situation_ is what is important; if I can help in some fashion I will, based on the situation and my ability to help - not based on whether or not I think the person should be able to help him/herself based on some standard of my own.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 24, 2007)

Try this... take whatever it is that YOU are most afraid of... I mean really scared of (you don't have to say what it is) and put another person/child in that situation where you'd have to go in and "save them" from it and see what your answer is. 

Are you trying to find out how brave we'll be. How courageous we are? How do we know? IMO we don't. We won't know until we are actually in that situation. We may watch someone in danger and be shocked into stillness or spurred into action... and it may not always be the right course of action either. 

You're driving down the free way and come upon an accident and just as you're slowing down to pull-over or whatever the car starts to smoke under the hood. Just as you're getting out of the car the smoke turns to flames and it quickly ignites the gas that has spilled out and within moments the entire outside of the car is engulfed... the people inside are trapped (and possibly unconscious from the wreck), the heat is intense, traffic is building up behind you which will most likely impede the rescue units that have already been called out to the scene (with hundreds of cell phones out there, 911 probably got tied up with calls) ... 
You gonna run up to the car to pull those people out? Think about it, that little fire-extinguisher you (might have) got in the trunk/cab of your car/truck isn't going to put that raging inferno out... plus you gotta get real close to make it even marginally effective, not to mention it simply isn't big enough to do the job at hand. It's for small confined fires. 
So you gonna go ahead and risk getting burned severely to open the car doors to get those poor people out? 
Don't try to answer (this) hypothetical it's something to think about... The type of question you're asking. 

Stuff like that... Nobody knows what they'll do at any given moment until they actually do it. Not even EMS or cops or firefighters. They'll have the highest probability of doing what they're _trained_ to do but even the best can freeze up. 
I remember a quote somewhere ... forgot who... "...heroes are cowards who forgot how scared they were..."


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Why should any of that matter if anyone was truly in danger?
> You don't describe the situation -- but your explanation of your reasoning suggests that they're being attacked; would your answers change if they were walking underneath a piano that's about to fall? Stepping off the curb in front an on-coming car?
> 
> You explanations are self-serving, at best. They seem to be simply there to explain why you don't help anyone (except maybe cute young ladies...). To me -- the simple question is "Is this person in danger? Can I help them with reasonable safety to myself and those entrusted to my care? And without creating a bigger, more dangerous situation?" If so -- then my personal moral and professional duty is to help, not stand idly by. Even if I can't intervene directly, I can still get help started by calling 911 (or the equivalent number).


 
I'm glad that you think so highly of me..

The reason that I specified these hypothetical situations is because there are all sorts of tricks thieves/murderers use to deceive decent people.

One good example is when a student of mine almost got killed. He beat down a thief that was stealing someone's wallet a city bus. When he got out of the bus at least four thieves followed him and seriously injured him. Then man whose wallet he got back didn't even say thank you.

Another example is that a friend of mine ran after a thief that mugged someone and got the bag/purse back only to be pointed to as the thief by the very person that he helped. It was obvious that he wasn't the thief - he looked nothing like him. It defies all logic why some people are so black-hearted.

There is an ongoing trick in the South of China where a little boy pretends to be running from a man that is trying to beat him with a cane. Finally, the boy sucumbs to fear and rolls into a fetal position, crying and shaking. When the person that tries to save him stands between the boy and the attacker and tries to talk him down the boy stabs him in the kidneys.

This post was more geared towards being cautious. It isn't always obvious what is going on in our world. 

O, and I wasn't talking about normal accidents. I'm talking about those times when one's maratial prowess would come into play.


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## Kacey (Jun 24, 2007)

So.... we should avoid helping people because they _might_, just possibly, be involved in a scam with the person who is visibly attacking?  I just can't agree with that.  Certainly, I've heard of other situations of the type you describe, and they do inspire caution - but that doesn't mean I am automatically going to avoid assisting someone who _might_ be part of a scam, just _in case_ there might be something going on besides the visible danger.

The situations you describe are real - I'm not disputing that - but the type of avoidance you are advocating because of what _might _happen is part and parcel of a larger issue, the rationale used by every person who chooses to _not_ help those in need because it _might_ backfire.  Every situation is different, and needs to be assessed independently, with the experience gained from previous encounters, and mistakes will happen - but I would rather err on the side of helping the wrong person, than not help someone when I can.  Does that mean I will rush blindly - or even with forethought - into a situation that I am unsure of?  Not at all - but I will gather those around me to help, call the police, or do anything else that will reduce the danger to the victim(s) while attempting to not increase the danger for anyone else in the vicinity, myself included.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 24, 2007)

Kacey said:


> So.... we should avoid helping people because they _might_, just possibly, be involved in a scam with the person who is visibly attacking? I just can't agree with that. Certainly, I've heard of other situations of the type you describe, and they do inspire caution - but that doesn't mean I am automatically going to avoid assisting someone who _might_ be part of a scam, just _in case_ there might be something going on besides the visible danger.
> 
> The situations you describe are real - I'm not disputing that - but the type of avoidance you are advocating because of what _might _happen is part and parcel of a larger issue, the rationale used by every person who chooses to _not_ help those in need because it _might_ backfire. Every situation is different, and needs to be assessed independently, with the experience gained from previous encounters, and mistakes will happen - but I would rather err on the side of helping the wrong person, than not help someone when I can. Does that mean I will rush blindly - or even with forethought - into a situation that I am unsure of? Not at all - but I will gather those around me to help, call the police, or do anything else that will reduce the danger to the victim(s) while attempting to not increase the danger for anyone else in the vicinity, myself included.


 
I'm sorry, but I think that you're confusing me with someone else. I never said anything about advocating avoidance of any kind. I merely stated that one should be cautious. There are no spaces between my lines - stop trying to read between them.


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## Kacey (Jun 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I'm sorry, but I think that you're confusing me with someone else. I never said anything about advocating avoidance of any kind. I merely stated that one should be cautious. There are no spaces between my lines - stop trying to read between them.





MaartenSFS said:


> I'm glad that you think so highly of me..
> 
> The reason that I specified these hypothetical situations is because there are all sorts of tricks thieves/murderers use to deceive decent people.
> 
> ...





MaartenSFS said:


> To answer my own question:
> 
> 1) Man - **** no. I believe that it every mans' function to know some form of MA to protect the weak.
> 
> ...



I find these posts to be mutually exclusive; that, or you're assuming that we know what you mean when you are not stating it explicitly.  In post #2, you list who you would not help, and why; in post #7, you give examples of assistance backfiring; and yet, you claim that you are not advocating that people avoid helping others - not until your most recent posts have you said anything about caution.  

Please remember that - even more than in conversation, where non-verbal cues are available - we know only what you choose to type, and if you do not state what you mean explicitly, chances are people will not understand what you mean.


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## Tames D (Jun 24, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> To answer my own question:
> 
> 1) Man - **** no. I believe that it every mans' function to know some form of MA to protect the weak.
> 
> ...


My answer to # 1-5 is Yes. 
I'm confused about your answer to #1. You say it's every mans function to help the weak. But you won't help a weak man?


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## jdinca (Jun 24, 2007)

Yes. The only caveat if it's a situation where getting involved would have both of them turn on me. Ask any LEO's here about that one.


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## tellner (Jun 25, 2007)

Unconditionally? My wife. Any kids we have. A few close friends and relatives. 

Other than that? Nobody. I'm not risking my life unless there's a good reason. There are enough people who have a lien on it that it's not entirely mine to throw away. The fact that someone is breathing is not in and of itself a good enough reason. It's a choice, not something automatic except in the few cases mentioned above.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

tellner said:


> Unconditionally? My wife. Any kids we have. A few close friends and relatives.
> 
> Other than that? Nobody. I'm not risking my life unless there's a good reason. There are enough people who have a lien on it that it's not entirely mine to throw away. The fact that someone is breathing is not in and of itself a good enough reason. It's a choice, not something automatic except in the few cases mentioned above.


 
Thank you. That's what I was looking for.


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## MJS (Jun 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> If you saw someone in a dangerous situation, and it looked genuine, would you unconditionaly take it upon yourself to resolve the matter if they were a...
> 
> 1) man
> 
> ...


 
There is always a risk of having the person you are attempting to help, turn on you.  If a LEO is responding to a domestic and moves in to make an arrest on the male half, whats to say that the female isn't suddenly going to have a change of heart and start assaulting the officer?  Same thing applies to the general public.  

So, to answer your question:  If I chose to get involved, first and foremost, I'd call the police.  It is their job to respond to situations like that, so I'm doing my part by providing them with a) a detailed description of what is taking place, b) the number of people involved, c) if there are any weapons, d) description of the attackers such as race, sex, clothing, e) any vehicles involved, and if so, make/model/color of the car, f) direction of travel of the vehicle or the attackers, if they leave on foot.

We dont know what we could be walking into, so for myself, I'd rather be a bit more cautious and call the police.  

Family members, wife, etc. of course, without hesitation.  I don't think I have to worry about my wife hitting me, if someone was trying to steal her purse. 

Mike


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## bushidomartialarts (Jun 25, 2007)

There are a lot of reasons to stay out of such a situation:  risk of death or harm to you, incomplete understanding of the situation, potential for legal trouble.  Tellner put it eloquently about having responsibilities that forbid us from risking death just for our own principals.

On the other hand, I don't think I'm constitutionally capable of walking away from or just watching a woman, child, senior or helpless man getting beaten.  

It's the smart move to call 911 and stay out of it, maybe be available to offer medical attention afterwards.  I'm not convinced it's the wise move, if you define wisdom as 'the right thing to do'.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2007)

OK what if you were in the middle of a foreign country (say Thailand) where you didn&#8217;t speak the language and you were the only Westerner in sight? 

What if the attacker is wearing a clown outfit and has balloon animals?

This is all hypothetical by the way, there may be a world of difference between what you think you would do and what you will do when faced with any of the listed situation. And there are multiple variables that you may have to consider. What if you are with your significant other or a child, do you expose them to the possibility of escalated violence or do you get them out of there to protect them? What if you are just not feeling well? What if others are jumping in? What if....etc?

EDIT:

I wanted to add this

A friend of mine was an LEO and HAD to respond to a domestic. When he got there he and his partner saw a rather large man holding a woman off the ground, against the wall, by the throat. 

The friend of mine dove in and took the guy down and his partner followed. Shortly thereafter my friend got a WHACK in the back of the head with a cast iron frying pan from the woman that was recently suspended by her neck by the guy he was fighting with. She was screaming leave my husband alone. Luckily the guy was cuffed by then and his partner had time to turn and stop her form hitting him again. The guy I know got a concussion. I do not know what happened to the husband and wife tag team frying pan wrestlers. 

Thing do not always work out like we believe they will. And then there is the good guy syndrom (for lack of a better name) that gets people hurt and killed too.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I never said anything about advocating avoidance of any kind. I merely stated that one should be cautious.


Out on the streets one can be as cautious as humanly possible... key points is to avoid going into areas/neighborhoods where these type of crimes typically happen. Can't help that? Then be wise and be totally observant and aware of everything that's going on. 
Hearing a woman or child screaming help? Sure go find out what's wrong but wait! Wait to see what is happening before getting into the thick of it. Even if it's a small helpless child. Things are always NEVER what they seem to be. Make the call, give exact locations (if possible) and again wait. If you can see the child/elderly person's assailant take notes as to what they look like or use your camera phone if you got one. Then get into it. 
Playing hero seems very noble. Playing hero are for those who are guaranteed to win everytime (i.e. guys wearing capes and masks). 
Seems to me you're looking for ways to do this. Looking for opportunities to play the hero. You talk about the great "what-if's" and honestly from my experience... there are none. 99% of the time they NEVER happen. ... and the other 1 % sure as hell isn't going to happen the way _you_ envisioned it. 
Choose your battles but choose them wisely. The streets are no place to try out this great idea/battle plan. The other guy didn't "read your notes" and isn't going to play by your scenario, mainly because they don't even know it's a scenario and don't even care. You're meddling into THEIR business and by god you'd better do something quick because they're gonna make sure you stay out of it. (that's their thinking... I know... I used to be one!)... 

Brain-training is one thing. Brain train however for the realistic as possible and with the mind set of "expecting the unexpected". If you've never lived out there where these type of scenarios can happen, you're putting yourself in danger when that cape comes out and the theme music cues up. 

Any veteran street cop can tell you this.

Also, more importantly... if you see a situation like the ones you've been describing... ask yourself... do you have the right?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 25, 2007)

On top of mentally protecting yourself from a set up one should be able to *feel* that the situation is not right.  This type of skill is something that is even more important than the physical skills that we employ.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 25, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> On top of mentally protecting yourself from a set up one should be able to *feel* that the situation is not right.  This type of skill is something that is even more important than the physical skills that we employ.


Agreed, thanks Brian.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> OK what if you were in the middle of a foreign country (say Thailand) where you didnt speak the language and you were the only Westerner in sight?
> 
> What if the attacker is wearing a clown outfit and has balloon animals?
> 
> ...


 
The first one happened to me - except without the clown and in South Eastern China in the Middle-of-Nowhere^3. That could have gone really wrong, but the situation de-escalated almost immediately. *WHEW*

The second is a classic example of a good deed backfiring. There are a lot of lunatics in the world...


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Out on the streets one can be as cautious as humanly possible... key points is to avoid going into areas/neighborhoods where these type of crimes typically happen. Can't help that? Then be wise and be totally observant and aware of everything that's going on.
> Hearing a woman or child screaming help? Sure go find out what's wrong but wait! Wait to see what is happening before getting into the thick of it. Even if it's a small helpless child. Things are always NEVER what they seem to be. Make the call, give exact locations (if possible) and again wait. If you can see the child/elderly person's assailant take notes as to what they look like or use your camera phone if you got one. Then get into it.
> Playing hero seems very noble. Playing hero are for those who are guaranteed to win everytime (i.e. guys wearing capes and masks).
> Seems to me you're looking for ways to do this. Looking for opportunities to play the hero. You talk about the great "what-if's" and honestly from my experience... there are none. 99% of the time they NEVER happen. ... and the other 1 % sure as hell isn't going to happen the way _you_ envisioned it.
> ...


 
That's all fine and dandy, but if it is a situation where if you don't act NOW or someone, possibly innocent, will die it changes the "game". These things often happen so fast that by the time the police arrive they will just find the empty crime scene.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If I am with loved ones I definitely wouldn't act the same as if I was alone. I am responsible for their lives as well. I can take care of myself, but extra baggage makes everything a lot more complicated.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> The first one happened to me - except without the clown and in South Eastern China in the Middle-of-Nowhere^3. That could have gone really wrong, but the situation de-escalated almost immediately. *WHEW*
> 
> The second is a classic example of a good deed backfiring. There are a lot of lunatics in the world...


 
You really have to be careful when a guy is packing balloon animals :uhyeah:

Glad to here it turned out ok


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## Tames D (Jun 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> That's all fine and dandy, *but if it is a situation where if you don't act NOW or someone, possibly innocent, will die it changes the "game". These things often happen so fast that by the time the police arrive they will just find the empty crime scene.*
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> If I am with loved ones I definitely wouldn't act the same as if I was alone. I am responsible for their lives as well. I can take care of myself, but extra baggage makes everything a lot more complicated.


This is why I would help. It may backfire on me but what are you gonna do, "interview" them first to make sure they won't turn on you? Or let them die?


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## Tames D (Jun 25, 2007)

Was it Mother Theresa who said: Some people are going to treat you like **** and act like a ****ing *******, but help them anyways. Maybe it wasn't her 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Was it Mother Theresa who said: Some people are going to treat you like **** and act like a ****ing *******, but help them anyways. Maybe it wasn't her
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
For some reason I don't feel that that's an exact quote...


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> You really have to be careful when a guy is packing balloon animals :uhyeah:
> 
> Glad to here it turned out ok


 
Because he could manifest anything with them. He could whip out a balloon that would become a sword and then change it to a gun. Scary ****..


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 25, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> This is why I would help. It may backfire on me but what are you gonna do, "interview" them first to make sure they won't turn on you? Or let them die?


 
I would probably charge in and get myself killed in one way or another, but I prefer to die like that than of low air quality, olde age, or a traffick accident. .5J/K


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> If you saw someone in a dangerous situation, and it looked genuine, would you unconditionaly take it upon yourself to resolve the matter if they were a...
> 
> 1) man
> 
> ...




I have helped everyone in all of this groups.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 26, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have helped everyone in all of this groups.


 
Then you are a good sumeritan(?) indeed.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Because he could manifest anything with them. He could whip out a balloon that would become a sword and then change it to a gun. Scary ****..


 
EXACTLY!!!


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 26, 2007)

It's sickening but understandable.  I would sure hope someone would give me a hand but would never expect it.  I've been helped out once by a shop keeper with a cudjel who ran out and chased a couple guys off me.  Other than that, no one's ever helped me even the odds.  I know I don't want to see anything because I'll feel obligated, have to overcome my fear of a painful death, or be stuck with a feeling of guilt.  I feel safer dealing with a car that might explode, than a guy stabbing me up for trying to help his victim.  I hate the sound of someone screaming though...  Tough call for me.  Maybe when I'm ten feet tall and bulletproof.  I like breathing.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 26, 2007)

MOD WARNING 
KEEP TO THE SUBJECT MATTER
Sheldon Bedell
mt mod


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 26, 2007)

I also have steped in to help those in need befor 
sometimes you just do not have to think about it depending on the situation at other times it is wise to make sure you know exactly what is going on befor steping in


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## donna (Jun 26, 2007)

We had a case here ,only a week or so ago, where two good samaritans went to the aid of a woman being beaten up and dragged from a taxi during the morning rush hour in the middle of Melbourne. The solicitor and Dutch backpacker who went to help were shot as was the woman. The Solictor died at the scene and the woman and backpacker are still fighting for their lives as we speak. The attacker was a member of a biker gang who had an illegal handgun hidden on his person. He has since surrendered to police. 
 When you go to help someone like that, generally you dont stop to think that you might be killed yourself. Why is it that some people will step in without hesitation, while others stand back and analyse things first, and others turn their backs and try to ignore the situation( hoping someone else will do something). 
Personally, I have stepped in a few times to help in different situations, and I must admit I have felt scared and wondered if I am doing the right thing at the time, but in most cases it has been the right thing. Especially in the case where very young children are involved, like grabbing a toddler that had run away from his mother and was about to get hit by a car in a car park.
 I think every situation is different, and hopefully our Martial arts training might help us to asses a situation a bit more quickly or accurately ,( maybe listening to that small voice inside)


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 26, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> If it looked genuine yes in every case. I would rather help and be wrong than not help. The quality of mercy is not strained.......


Ok, you are carrying your baby in your arms. Do you still help? hand your child to a stanger? lay it in the bushes?
Sean


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 26, 2007)

All very good points. Hence, why I started this thread.  Anyways, I am moving to another city and won't have internet for... a while (It IS China). Thanks to everyone for contributing. Carry on! Cheers.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 26, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok, you are carrying your baby in your arms. Do you still help? hand your child to a stanger? lay it in the bushes?
> Sean


 
Absolutely correct. There's no ****ing way that I'd do that.


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