# How to recover from this position



## Argus (Dec 21, 2020)

Greetings all!

After a long hiatus from training, I finally found a Wing Chun school to attend here in Japan. I made it out to a class and, while quite rusty, still have the fundamentals down. However, I immediately noticed a number of my bad habits that I had previously come out while rolling, and there is one particular position that some how I always wind up in and don't know how to avoid.

Let's say you're rolling. Your left hand is inside (bong/tan) and your right hand is outside (fok sao).
I notice that, often times, my opponent will put pressure on my bong sao such that my position weakens, either due to my bong becoming tired, or just because he intentionally brought it down to create an opening. When this happens, generally I find myself in a low bong (dai bong) with my left hand, and perhaps shifting slightly to the right. Mean while, my opponent opens my fok sao up with a tan-sao, especially if I was forced to shift right to maintain what little is left of my bong sao. In this position, he can essentially either come in with a low punch, collapsing my weak bong sao, or a high palm, as my fok sao has also been compromised. This is a lose-lose situation that I can't seem to prevent, recover from, or counter.

Some counters that I have tried are to hyun and go around, changing to the outside on my bong, or the inside on my fok sao, or trying to change my bong into a fak sao and slip onto the top while maintaining contact. But, most of the time this is all impossible if the opponent is sticking with good forward intent, making it impossible to disengage without getting hit.

When your bong is collapsing, and the force is too much, but you can't disengage/hyun to the outside, and you also aren't in the position to disengage your other hand for a technique like lop sao, what can you do?

Of course, I guess if I had a better bong sao, perhaps I could somehow prevent this, but I have a suspicion that if someone really wants to, they can take your bong-sao down and create an opening, and you just need to know how to respond effectively in some manner which I haven't yet figured out.


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## Jens (Dec 21, 2020)

Sounds like you’re relying on techniques to handle your partner’s pressure instead of relying on your wck structure. Work on improving your overall core wing chun structure, and this problem will be resolved once your structure improves. Think of it like updating the operating system in your cell phone to fix all the the issues, instead of focusing on fixing each individual issue.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 21, 2020)

I'm having a hard time visualizing this so I can't really provide specific input, but I would investigate why you're trying so hard to hold your bong sau position against that much pressure - bong is somewhat of a transitional technique and isn't really designed to be able to absorb direct pressure for sustained periods of time. Unless you're talking about someone who just has heavy hands which is a different matter.

If you can take some pictures or draw a diagram that'd help a lot.


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## wckf92 (Dec 21, 2020)

This may sound over simplistic but...move your feet! 
Relieve the pressure through footwork, while simultaneously placing yourself in a better position.


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## Argus (Dec 21, 2020)

Marnetmar said:


> I'm having a hard time visualizing this so I can't really provide specific input, but I would investigate why you're trying so hard to hold your bong sau position against that much pressure - bong is somewhat of a transitional technique and isn't really designed to be able to absorb direct pressure for sustained periods of time. Unless you're talking about someone who just has heavy hands which is a different matter.
> 
> If you can take some pictures or draw a diagram that'd help a lot.



Well, exactly! Bong sao is a transitional technique and cannot absorb direct pressure.

You have to transition to something. Basically, I don't know what to transition to during this situation, when my bong sao :

1) My bong sao is just unable to hold up against someone heavy handed
or...
2) Someone just has a better position than me, and my roll up into bong-sao (during chisao, the standard tan -> bong roll) can't go high enough to create good structure.
In either case, there are times when bong can weaken or collapse, and you need to change.

Lop sao is one option, but that's not always possible when rolling if the other hand can't disengage, or if you're just doing pwoon sao with straight attacks.

Changing to the outside is also one option, but it's often not possible if your partner has good forward intent. If you're fast and have good sensitivity you can pull it off some of the time.

If the person is heavy and pressing down on the bong-sao, you can safely disengage. But if they are applying proper forward pressure, that's not an option.

Other than that, I don't know. My natural instict has been to shift my stance with my bong sao when this happens, but that merely opens me up more by compromising my fok sao position.

Maybe I should just try this on the teacher or other students and see their res


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## Jens (Dec 21, 2020)

Marnetmar said:


> bong is somewhat of a transitional technique and isn't really designed to be able to absorb direct pressure for sustained periods of time.



Says who?

“Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power. Indeed, it is a very aggressive and penetrating technique due to its circular nature."

When one transitions from bong to tan during luk sao, it isn't to yield to nor run away from your partner's pressure, it's to change your vector of force so that you can continue attacking your partner's structure. The nature of wck is to attack and counter attack continuously until the opponent is down. If you switch to defense even for a split second, it puts you one step behind in regards to timing, giving the opponent an opportunity to turn the tides on you, which you may never recover from to get back on the offensive.

@ Argus - Sounds to me like you have a deficiency in your fundamental structure, which does not allow you to generate proper forward intent to equalize your partner's forward intent and pressure. This would explain why your bong sau and fuk sau breaks down when under pressure.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 21, 2020)

Argus said:


> my opponent will put pressure on my bong sao ...


In principle, if your opponent puts too much force on your arm, you should borrow his force, spin your arm, and change your Bong Shou into a hook punch to the side of his head.

Your opponent tries to press your arm, you won't let his arm to touch your arm, you let his arm to touch the thin air.

In one second, your arm is there. One second later, your arm is not there. It's the opposite of the sticky hand principle.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 21, 2020)

Jens said:


> Says who?
> 
> “Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power. Indeed, it is a very aggressive and penetrating technique due to its circular nature."
> 
> ...



I'm not properly caffeinated yet so my analysis of this post is probably lacking, but this perspective has always baffled me.

Yes, there are a million and one things that you technically *can* do with all of WC's tools. Yes, you can, technically, if you go about it a certain way, use your bong sau to force your opponent backwards or use your tan sau for a similar purpose. If you're Chu Shong Tin you can do some seriously weird stuff provided you've created arbitrary conditions in which it can work.

But just because you *can* do that...why would you? Why not just change positions based on what you're being given and hit the guy?


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## APL76 (Dec 22, 2020)

Who are you training with in Japan? Danial?


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## drop bear (Dec 22, 2020)

Could you fake right and go left? Because I assume he will chase. In which case he might wind going past you. 

Because if I take a step he basically has to turn and face. Doesn't matter what style. So I can step and then step again while he is turning giving myself a cool little angle.


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## Argus (Dec 23, 2020)

APL76 said:


> Who are you training with in Japan? Danial?



Well, technically I am still "shopping around" for a good teacher, but I'm thinking I will start taking classes at J's Gym in Shinmaruko / Tokyo.

I'm curious, who is Danial / where is his school? The only things that came up in my google searches are a Yuen Kay San school, an EBMAS school, and J's Gym.


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## Argus (Dec 23, 2020)

After giving it some more thought, and reading some responses here, I think I should consider the following:

1. I am extremely rusty, and bong sao has always been the technique that has given me the most trouble, so it is probably the case that my structure is largely to blame.

2. My positioning may have been bad too. It could be that I was transitioning to bong sao too low, and should have "won" a higher position with my tan-sao first when rolling, rather than yielding into bong prematurely.

3. Perhaps I did need to just take a step back to create some space, and bring my bong up into something else.

4. Perhaps there's also something that I could do by shifting not to the right (assuming I bong with my left), but to the left, and change my bong into something else (lan-sao ala chum kiu, maybe?) to take the pressure a different way and also establish a strong position with my fook-sao.




drop bear said:


> Could you fake right and go left? Because I assume he will chase. In which case he might wind going past you.
> 
> Because if I take a step he basically has to turn and face. Doesn't matter what style. So I can step and then step again while he is turning giving myself a cool little angle.



I like to do that too when there's sufficient distance. I find it's a lot harder to do with Wing Chun guys up close though, especially if you're in contact. They can instantly feel where you are, and where you move to, so their reaction time is much quicker in this case.


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## APL76 (Dec 23, 2020)

Argus said:


> Well, technically I am still "shopping around" for a good teacher, but I'm thinking I will start taking classes at J's Gym in Shinmaruko / Tokyo.
> 
> I'm curious, who is Danial / where is his school? The only things that came up in my google searches are a Yuen Kay San school, an EBMAS school, and J's Gym.



Danial is a friend of mine who lives in Tokyo. He has trained in tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu for a very long time and has, in the last maybe 10 years or so been training in wing chun. He not long ago became a disciple of Sum Siu Wai (Sum Nung's elder son), so I suspect the Yuen Kay San school you saw may well be his, I can't imagine that there too many people doing YKS wing chun in Tokyo. Not only is he an extraordinarily experienced martial artist in general, he is also about as lovely a guy as you are likely to meet. I'd highly recommend checking out what he has to offer if you are interested.


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## Argus (Dec 23, 2020)

APL76 said:


> Danial is a friend of mine who lives in Tokyo. He has trained in tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu for a very long time and has, in the last maybe 10 years or so been training in wing chun. He not long ago became a disciple of Sum Siu Wai (Sum Nung's elder son), so I suspect the Yuen Kay San school you saw may well be his, I can't imagine that there too many people doing YKS wing chun in Tokyo. Not only is he an extraordinarily experienced martial artist in general, he is also about as lovely a guy as you are likely to meet. I'd highly recommend checking out what he has to offer if you are interested.



Hmm, I can't seem to figure out how to send you a private message.

I'd love to at least meet him and see what he has to offer! Unfortunately, my google-fu is failing to help me locate him.

Would you happen to know how I can find or get in touch with him?


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## APL76 (Dec 23, 2020)

Argus said:


> Hmm, I can't seem to figure out how to send you a private message.
> 
> I'd love to at least meet him and see what he has to offer! Unfortunately, my google-fu is failing to help me locate him.
> 
> Would you happen to know how I can find or get in touch with him?


I'll send him an email and see what his situation is regarding teaching. As far as I can tell he is teaching or at least has some sort of training group. If he's cool with it I'll see if I can hook you guys up.


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## Argus (Dec 23, 2020)

APL76 said:


> I'll send him an email and see what his situation is regarding teaching. As far as I can tell he is teaching or at least has some sort of training group. If he's cool with it I'll see if I can hook you guys up.



That would be great!

Even if he's not teaching anymore, I'd still love to meet up and see his Wing Chun and hear about Shinden Katori Shinto Ryuu. I'm also very interested in Japanese Koryuu arts.


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## Svarog (Dec 31, 2020)

There is very simple solution to this. First , stop thinking how to stop or control but think how to turn bad situation into a good one, which means you have to attack. So, when the pressure is applied to your bong, do not try to fight force whith a force, let your forearm collapse and let the force go down but keep your upper arm at same position. pointing your elbow to the enter of the opponent. At the this moment you will either have covered the opponent's arm or will loose the contact, due to inertia from the pressure applied to your bong. Either way you will have an open way of attack for a  split of the second. It is also important to change your body position either by shifting or stepping. While changing position of the body change your fook into kao sao, that way you can "open" your training partner in two places. This is one simple solution that comes to mind based on what you said, there other solutions that will depend of the angle of the force, heights of the practitioners , amount of the force etc.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2020)

Svarog said:


> let your forearm collapse and let the force go down ...


That's my suggestion too. Not only you let your opponent's arm to go down, by pressing your other hand on top of his arm, you may also help his arm to go down more than he wants to.


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## Eric_H (Jan 1, 2021)

Jens said:


> Says who?



I'll say it, the way Bong Sao is done in what I've seen in the Yip Man line isn't very good. It can't absorb pressure well and isn't that great as a tool in general. I know quite a few people that ended up with shoulder problems due to it. The only people in that line I've found who have made it work tend to shorten the tool to more of a Laan and use it as a bit of a battering ram. 



Argus said:


> Let's say you're rolling. Your left hand is inside (bong/tan) and your right hand is outside (fok sao).
> I notice that, often times, my opponent will put pressure on my bong sao such that my position weakens, either due to my bong becoming tired, or just because he intentionally brought it down to create an opening. When this happens, generally I find myself in a low bong (dai bong) with my left hand, and perhaps shifting slightly to the right. Mean while, my opponent opens my fok sao up with a tan-sao, especially if I was forced to shift right to maintain what little is left of my bong sao. In this position, he can essentially either come in with a low punch, collapsing my weak bong sao, or a high palm, as my fok sao has also been compromised. This is a lose-lose situation that I can't seem to prevent, recover from, or counter.



Sounds like you're missing the cue to flip to a Tahn Sao. In YM's version of WC, Bong Sao should only exist for a pulse before flipping back to Tahn or opening to Biu. If you keep the shape after the pulse, you're going to allow the opponent to cling to you. This is a bad habit that opens you for wrestling. Alternatively if you're from one of the more body turning types of YM's WC you can try to absorb by turning into the tahn, this usually means you have to cover with the center with a chop. This is one way of using the pressing energy against him.

HFY uses the eagle Bong Sao in 2-handed chi sao, so I can't really comment from that perspective since we're playing a different game.


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## MFC__2020 (Jan 1, 2021)

Its because Bong Sau is an action.  Dont hang out there.


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## Jens (Jan 3, 2021)

Eric_H said:


> I'll say it, the way Bong Sao is done in what I've seen in the Yip Man line isn't very good. It can't absorb pressure well and isn't that great as a tool in general. I know quite a few people that ended up with shoulder problems due to it.



The people you know that ended up with shoulder problems obviously are not performing the technique correctly. If they did it correctly, there would be zero undue stress of the shoulder joints or rotator cuff tendons.



Eric_H said:


> The only people in that line I've found who have made it work tend to shorten the tool to more of a Laan and use it as a bit of a battering ram.



I wouldn't say bong sau has to shorten to more of a Laan, nor used as a bit of a battering ram to make it work. However it should be performed with more of a compact structure, in what I would describe as a spiraling motion rather than a "a battering ram". The late grandmaster Wong Sheung Leung does a fantastic job demoing exactly how I believe it should be done in this clip. Most Wing chunners I've seen perform their bong sau way too extended lacking structure which places alot of undue stress on the supraspinatus tendon of their shoulder joint causing wear and tear and eventually leading to injury to that tendon.


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## Argus (Jan 3, 2021)

Eric_H said:


> I'll say it, the way Bong Sao is done in what I've seen in the Yip Man line isn't very good. It can't absorb pressure well and isn't that great as a tool in general. I know quite a few people that ended up with shoulder problems due to it. The only people in that line I've found who have made it work tend to shorten the tool to more of a Laan and use it as a bit of a battering ram.



I'm curious, how do you do bong sao?



Eric_H said:


> Sounds like you're missing the cue to flip to a Tahn Sao. In YM's version of WC, Bong Sao should only exist for a pulse before flipping back to Tahn or opening to Biu. If you keep the shape after the pulse, you're going to allow the opponent to cling to you. This is a bad habit that opens you for wrestling. Alternatively if you're from one of the more body turning types of YM's WC you can try to absorb by turning into the tahn, this usually means you have to cover with the center with a chop. This is one way of using the pressing energy against him.
> 
> HFY uses the eagle Bong Sao in 2-handed chi sao, so I can't really comment from that perspective since we're playing a different game.



I think that you hit the nail on the head, and this is what I was starting to think about as well. 
If I had noticed earlier that my bong was not in a good position and went to tan, I could actually shift left (not right) into tan-da and use the opponent's pressure to my advantage. And if I am late and do turn, I needed to do something about my fuk sao position, either disengaging entirely, or switching to the inside some how.


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## Eric_H (Jan 3, 2021)

Jens said:


> The people you know that ended up with shoulder problems obviously are not performing the technique correctly. If they did it correctly, there would be zero undue stress of the shoulder joints or rotator cuff tendons.



Or it just doesn't work very well. I've got enough of a sample size to make the conclusion across several YM branches. YMMV. I'm just glad I'm not doing it anymore.


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## geezer (Jan 4, 2021)

Eric_H said:


> Or it just doesn't work very well. I've got enough of a sample size to make the conclusion across several YM branches. YMMV. I'm just glad I'm not doing it anymore.



Well, I found the once you develop rotator cuff problems you won't do any style of bong anymore. Ironically, my rotator cuff issues stemmed from an unrelated injury during a period when I wasn't doing Wing Chun, and then years later I re-injured it doing some ill-considered conditioning movements with a staff, again not related to WC. The end result is limited range of movement and shoulder pain that makes my left bong pretty useless. I may end up getting surgery.

Meanwhile, I'm using bong a lot less overall and using it in a very soft, yielding way when I do. It's actually a better approach IMO - with or without the injury.


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## Callen (Jan 4, 2021)

Eric_H said:


> Or it just doesn't work very well. I've got enough of a sample size to make the conclusion across several YM branches.


That's a pretty broad opinion. Can you elaborate?


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