# Touched by an Angel?



## grumpywolfman (Aug 10, 2013)

Witnesses say he appeared at the scene of a Missouri car accident Sunday, anointed and prayed with the teenage victim and then vanished without a trace.

"Officials are still scratching their heads over the priest, who they say appeared out of nowhere. Perhaps more mysteriously, the local fire chief said he does not appear in any of 80 photos from the accident scene...We're looking for the priest and so far, no one has seen him. Whether it was a priest as an angel or an actual angel, he was an angel to all..."

Read the article at: *foxnews*


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## Sukerkin (Aug 10, 2013)

:checks to see that it is indeed the 21st Century:

I am sorry, *Grumpy*, I know your belief is sincere but my disbelief is equally strong; stronger still is my sorrow that we as a species are still cleaving to this dangerous mythos of a Creator Deity. 

If this is intended to spark a serious theological discussion, then all well and good, otherwise I don't feel that it is appropriate material to be presenting as 'fact' what is tantamount to the same thing as a UFO/alien/crop-circle sighting.


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## billc (Aug 10, 2013)

Except for all the emergency personnel who actually interacted with the priest, who they all noted and said the prayer with...

I heard the account on a radio show...they couldn't get the metal of the car apart to free  the woman.  None of their tools were up to the job.  She started praying out loud and some of the workers joined her...and the Priest appeared, he said a short prayer in front of all of these people, and told them that their tools would now work to free her...and another department...with better tools arrived on the scene...and he was gone...

One wonders how these things work...who was actually supposed to be impacted by the event...and how it will affect the wider world...

One of the news reporters on the radio station chastised the skeptical Richard Roeper by relaying that at the scene of the Twin Towers on 9/11 there were reports of mystery rescuers who appeared in places they shouldn't have been able to get to...helped the victims trapped...and then disappeared...

The event with the mysterious Priest...

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/08/the-freaky-triple-deaky-mystery-priest-miracle-post/



> Reed&#8217;s team and emergency workers from several other jurisdictions tried for at least 45 minutes to remove the twisted metal from around Lentz. Various pieces of equipment broke and the team was running out of choices. A helicopter waited to carry Lentz to the nearest trauma center. Though Lentz appeared calm, talking about her church and her studies toward a dentistry degree, her vital signs were beginning to fail, Reed said&#8230;
> That&#8217;s when Lentz asked if someone would pray with her and a voice said, &#8220;I will.&#8221;
> The silver-haired priest in his 50s or 60s in black pants, black shirt and black collar with visible white insert stepped forward from nowhere. It struck Reed as odd because *the street was blocked off 2 miles from the scene* and no one from the nearby communities recognized him&#8230;
> Everything happened quickly after that. Twenty emergency workers pulled together and sat the car upright, Churchill Lentz said. Katie Lentz&#8217;s vital signs improved and a rescue team from a neighboring community suddenly appeared with fresh equipment and tools. Lentz was removed and rushed to the hospital.​When they went to thank the priest, he was gone as mysteriously as he&#8217;d arrived &#8212; and according to Reed, among 69 photographs taken at the scene during the rescue, the priest doesn&#8217;t appear in a single one. _Dude?_
> ...



And the big question for the Priest...



> Imagine if you&#8217;re the mystery priest watching the buzz of excitement and wonderment from people who want to believe an angel was responsible. Do you come forward, or do you lie low to encourage it?


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 10, 2013)

So much I really want to say.....
I guess it's a good thing the accident victim wasn't a choir boy....
So God does something about this, but lets that little two year old boy die of cancer?


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## billc (Aug 10, 2013)

He does what he does...he tends to have a much larger view of the entire world than we do...we won't know why he does what he does until we die and can possibly ask him...if one believes in an after life, where there is no pain, or suffering for the innocent, for what we think may be eternity...hmmmm...

Here is a question which has probably been debated before...but what if our current existence on Earth is actually what we would call Hell...I mean...could a better place for punishment have been created by anyone?

Where the evil seem to succeed and the innocent have to struggle, often with great suffering and pain to defeat it...where that which is good for you is hard...and that which is bad for you is easy...



> So God does something about this, but lets that little two year old boy die of cancer?



And other two year old boys are saved from cancer as well...everyday...and others are saved as well...and lost as well...


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## billc (Aug 10, 2013)

Here is another thing,  It is sometimes said we are created in God's image...so I find this saying somewhat odd...the one that goes "While Man makes plans, God laughs," or something to that effect.  Now think of this saying as a parent of a child.  Let's say you have a son or daughter and they have big dreams of doing something in their life.  Let's say your son has the dream of playing in the NBA, loves Michael Jordan and practices at his little playschool basketball net all day long...and you as his parent realize, that because of his size, and you can tell he will never grow much past a certain height...that he will never play in the NBA and maybe not even in High School...as a parent...do you laugh as your child makes his plans...?  

And this...as a believer in God...I don't have all if any of the answers to why things are the way they are...the same as everyone else, even atheists.  All I know is that because I believe I am a little, I repeat, a little, happier about life.  There is possibly something at the other end that may be promised if I am a good person and treat others as well as I can as a flawed human.  Now an atheist...there is nothing at the end of this long suffering life...that is probably why they tend to be crabby a lot of the time...and why certain ones do some really unpleasant things...

Now...if I am wrong...I have spent life a little happier, and been nice to people I probably wouldn't have been nice to...if not done worse to, and I may do more things that are good than bad...or not.  If I am wrong, when I die there will simply be nothing...I will cease to exist...so really, no net loss.  In a way that might just be peaceful...  I won't realize I was wrong and it won't matter.  For an atheist...they will endure this world and suffer the whole time knowing that when their suffering is done...they also won't exist...they will have just been a little less happy the whole time they were alive?  

Comments please...


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## arnisador (Aug 10, 2013)




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## Tgace (Aug 10, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> :checks to see that it is indeed the 21st Century:
> 
> I am sorry, *Grumpy*, I know your belief is sincere but my disbelief is equally strong; stronger still is my sorrow that we as a species are still cleaving to this dangerous mythos of a Creator Deity.
> 
> If this is intended to spark a serious theological discussion, then all well and good, otherwise I don't feel that it is appropriate material to be presenting as 'fact' what is tantamount to the same thing as a UFO/alien/crop-circle sighting.



For all the "you are welcome to your beliefs" platitudes people like to spout they cant seem to resist their little roll eyes or their comments about how my beliefs are dangerous.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." -Matthew 5:11

Of course the threat for modern Christians is no longer being fed to lions...but the embarrassment of belittling by our fellows.

I don't know what happened here...most likely a passing clergyman stopped to give aid. Photos don't catch everything at a scene and in the chaos of an accident people can come and go unnoticed quite easily. 

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2013)

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3725992



> Father JamesMartin, a Jesuit priest and author ofMy Life withthe Saints, has a different theory.
> 
> "Most likely the priest will be identified, and people will be able to thank him," he told TheHuffington Post in an emailed message Thursday. "If he's not found, that may mean he wants to remain anonymous. Could it have been an angel? There are similar 'angelic' stories in the livesof the saints, when a figure inexplicably appears and cannot be located afterwards. There are angels, of course, but we tend to ascribe to angels anonymous acts that we find incredibly loving -- when in fact human beings do incredibly loving things in hidden ways every day."



People need to realize that many "believers" simply differentiate the "facts" of existence from the meaning of existence. 


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Sukerkin (Aug 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> For all the "you are welcome to your beliefs" platitudes people like to spout they cant seem to resist their little roll eyes or their comments about how my beliefs are dangerous.



I'm fine as long as those with religious inclinations keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves.  Leave me unmolested by them and I'll say *nothing* about your notions of creation. 

Even here in the limited scope of these fora, you must see that?  When do I comment on the (what is to me) insanity that is religion unless someone brings it up first?  To be clear, sensitive as some of you may be about the subject, I find the whole concept an insult to our species and offensive in the extreme (and I don't care what religious flavour you are, I hold you all in the same light (tho' some faiths tend more to the Nutty end of the spectrum)).  

Be satisfied that I am happy to leave you be on the subject, comfortable in your feelings on the matter - especially now, for as you can imagine *my* feelings about 'the religious' and their 'loving' god run very hot.

None of this means I think any the less of you (those that I speak with here) as people; indeed I hold some of you in high esteem.  In just the same way as I am quite at peace with talking to those here of any political stripe (unless politics is the sole core of their being, for zealotry of any kind brings out my anti-bully intolerance) so it is with the religiously committed.   At a personal level, I was touched and thankful for the good wishes and kind words that I received here from those of you of faith when my wife was ill and then passed away (I'm not one of those who will get all huffy if someone religious says they will pray for me, for you are showing your human concern in the way best known to you).  I also got the same from the non-religious and the strongly anti-religious ... because good people are still good in their hearts even if I disagree with some of what they hold to be true.

So, back to my initial position.  As with double-glazing salesman, who I am fine with as long as they don't knock on my door, just don't intrude proselytising (veiled or otherwise) into my life and I'll be quiet as a mouse on the matter of the non-existence of gods.

EDIT:  Re-reading this, it sounds rather more confrontational than I wish it to.  The feelings that I express are genuine and I don't want to just delete them, so please read them with a gentler tone than the words might 'sound' like on the surface.


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## arnisador (Aug 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> For all the "you are welcome to your beliefs" platitudes people like to spout they cant seem to resist their little roll eyes or their comments about how my beliefs are dangerous.



Well, religion has certainly caused a lot of problems. Witches are still being burnt by Christians in Africa to take just one example (and one religion). Yes, religious beliefs can be and have been very dangerous. Your people persecuted my people (scientists) quite heavily over the centuries--torture, death, shunning. You can ignore the parts of the Bible about owning slaves, killing your enemies except for the young girls, and so on and get a great philosophy out of the Golden Rule, turn the other cheek, etc. That's great--I'm all for that. But even if that's what you've excerpted from the larger religion of Christianity it does change the fundamentally hate-filled message of You will burn in _*Hell *_if you don't obey me. 



> "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." -Matthew 5:11



Great idea for inculcating a cult-like mentality--claim that even when people say you're wrong it actually means you're right. When you're right you're right and when you're wrong you're right. Winning!

People can believe what they like. But religion is trying to force itself into laws and policy--on abortion, stem cell research, marriage equality, creationism, etc.--in too many places to ignore.


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## billc (Aug 11, 2013)

> You will burn in _*Hell *_if you don't obey me.



Yes, not killing your neighbor, not stealing, not taking your neighbors wife, not worshiping false gods who call for human sacrifice, not lying about your neighbor...yeah...those are real burdens for us to follow...



> But religion is trying to force itself into laws and policy--on abortion, stem cell research, marriage equality, creationism, etc.--in too many places to ignore.



global warming and environmentalism as religion infiltrating public policy,  killing unborn children because they are inconvenient, wanting to uphold traditional marriage as a valuable asset to society,  using federal dollars for  medical research for  stem cell practices that don't work and get in the way of stem cell research that actually works all for the purpose of keeping killing inconvenient babies legal, as for creationism...as one theory...as good as the others...

Yeah, the non-religious have their problems as well...ask the 100 million victims of the atheists in the 20 century...after all, they were following science as well...



> Great idea for inculcating a cult-like mentality



Have you looked at the public education system lately...talk about inculcating a cult like mentality...or a college campus in the liberal arts college...you won't find religion there but some of the craziness is...well...crazy...



> Witches are still being burnt by Christians in Africa



Witches would be burning in Africa regardless of the religion...once they enter the modern era I have a feeling the witch burning will decrease...nothing like the mass murder of 100 million by those who believed in socialism...is it?  And people actually still defend the ones who did that in Russia and China...and march in parades under the communist title...all without shame...or embarrassment...


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## Sukerkin (Aug 11, 2013)

Is that the awesome sound of cherry picking and re-interpretation of events to fit a fixed world view I can hear :chuckles:?

Until such things can be properly debated rationally then I fear we are stuck with the status quo for a while yet - given the central plank of religious doctrine is to believe without proof then the whole thing is on a losing wicket as far as I am concerned.  Far to much emotional rhetoric and charismatic-cultism for my ever to be comfortable with organisations having such doctrines getting their hands near the reins of power ever again.

Now I have said my piece, followed my conscience in not allowing such 'secret preaching of unfalsifiable ideas' to go unchallenged and shall go and watch We Were Soldiers ... a fabulous war movie about an inspiring leader who, ironically enough, happened to be a very religious man :lol:.


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## aedrasteia (Aug 11, 2013)

billc said:


> And this...as a believer in God...I don't have all if any of the answers to why things are the way they are...the same as everyone else, even atheists.  All I know is that because I believe I am a little, I repeat, a little, happier about life.  There is possibly something at the other end that may be promised if I am a good person and treat others as well as I can as a flawed human.  Now an atheist...there is nothing at the end of this long suffering life...that is probably why they tend to be crabby a lot of the time...and why certain ones do some really unpleasant things...
> 
> Now...if I am wrong...I have spent life a little happier, and been nice to people I probably wouldn't have been nice to...if not done worse to, and I may do more things that are good than bad...or not.  If I am wrong, when I die there will simply be nothing...I will cease to exist...so really, no net loss.  In a way that might just be peaceful...  I won't realize I was wrong and it won't matter.  For an atheist...they will endure this world and suffer the whole time knowing that when their suffering is done...they also won't exist...they will have just been a little less happy the whole time they were alive?
> 
> Comments please...



Interesting.

Billc offers A recapitulation/variation on 'Pascal's Wager'  
(Blaise Pascal   1623 - 1662)
Wikipedia on Pascal and Jansenism (Christian theology) are not too bad.

Someone/something offered direct comfort and care for a threatened and frightened human
person.  

_That_ response, whatever its source, is what holds my attention.


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## billc (Aug 11, 2013)

At least with the witch burners in Africa...you can blame that on a primitive culture and a primitive understanding of religion...how do you explain the socialists, who didn't believe in God and were hostile to religion, but were modern men and women, educated in the most advanced Countries in the world...who killed millions, in modern nation states of the time...?  So yes, religion has a history...long ago, of bad acts...they were done by humans after all, but socialism...which is supposed to be more sophisticated than the "superstition," of religion, and based in science...killed millions not more than 70 years ago...which is more problematic?   Considering there are those who still want a big powerful government...kind of like the ones that went bad in the 1930's, 40's, 50' and 60's...

The secularists have a bit more explaining to do before they can cast their blame on religion for modern atrocities...


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## elder999 (Aug 11, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> Witnesses say he appeared at the scene of a Missouri car accident Sunday, anointed and prayed with the teenage victim and then vanished without a trace.
> 
> "Officials are still scratching their heads over the priest, who they say appeared out of nowhere. Perhaps more mysteriously, the local fire chief said he does not appear in any of 80 photos from the accident scene...We're looking for the priest and so far, no one has seen him. Whether it was a priest as an angel or an actual angel, he was an angel to all..."
> 
> Read the article at: *foxnews*



"Whether he was a priest or an _*actual angel*_, he was an angel to all."

 What remarkable treacle.

Seriously, an angel? The ones that God sends to destroy entire cities, that fight demons? The ones that-even when sent with "good tidings"-have to tell those they don't intend to destroy, "Be not afraid?" because they are so terrible and awesome to behold?

Or just a priest or minister-doing what, well, *priests do?*, and it being followed with a positive outcome that might have occurred without the priest?

Or, yeah, sure, "an angel."

The inexplicable-or apparently inexplicable-has always occurred, from time to time, throughout history.

What you believe in each instance, is really up to you.

Looking at it scientifically (*facts*, Sukerkin) what do we know? 

There was an accident.

The emergency responders were unsuccessful in rescuing the victim, whose condition was worsening

She prayed, and asked them to pray with her.

Some of them did.

Someone showed up dressed as a priest, and prayed as well.

The rescuers say that the someone dressed as a priest said that their equipment would work.

Another company showed up with equipment that did work, and the accident victim was saved.

The someone dressed as a priest could not be found.

Those are the facts as presented-we can come up with all sorts of conjecture about what they mean-or derive meaning, or belief from them-but, as is the nature of faith or belief, we _cannot_ *know*-indeed, some believers would say that we aren't meant to-that, to answer Bill's questions about "who was actually impacted by the event," and its implications (good questions, btw, Bill) we'll likely never know. 

As for the priest, probably just a simple priest or minister-doing, as I said, *what they do*-and maybe he'll come forward, and maybe he won't. Maybe he'll be found-it's hard to believe that in this Internet age, someone under such circumstances could remain hidden for long: if he's actually a local minister or priest, the press will track him down by going from one church to the next, until they're out of state if they have to, just to prove that he *wasn't* an angel.

And if he was, well, what of it? If it didn't happen to you, it really shouldn't matter much to you, before this descends into an "evils of atheism/religion" discussion.

You can not disprove the existence of Sasquatch. If a person has seen-as thousands have- what they think to have been a Bigfoot (even if it was just a big smelly bear) you're not going to convince that person that they didn't.

You cannot disprove the existence of UFOs. If a person has seen-as thousands have-what they think to have been an "alien spacecraft" (even if it was just a bolide, or swamp gas, or a weather balloon) you're not going to convince that person that they didn't.

Likewise in this incident-for those who were there, anyway-and, just as an the case of UFOs and Sasquatch, thousands will believe whatever they chose to.  

In the end, as the priest proves to be more and more elusive, and the facts around the case become more clear (the road was blocked 1/4 mile away, and it's a part of Missouri that's relatively flat and open-it sounds like the "priest" just "disappeared.) it's worth discussing possible explanations, and not at all worth discussing how positively awful those who believe another explanation are, simply because it doesn't agree with what you choose to believe-that is, after all, the path that leads to war and genocide, whichever side of the equation you're on.....


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2013)

And exactly how was subject of the original post "molesting" anyone? People at an accident scene report an unknown clergyman assisted at the scene. Whats the big religious harm in this particular instance??

Plus I find the whole idea of forum threads "molesting" someone with religious beliefs (bluntly) foolish. Here's a hint DON'T READ THEM. Commenting on them is more about the posters need to complain or comment on other peoples beliefs. Threads are NOT like someone proselytizing at your door. Threads are like YOU walking up to a conversation and inserting YOUR opinion. Which is fine and dandy but at least have some consistency between your words (Im fine with believers) and your deeds (having a need to comment negatively on any religious topic you can find).

The whole "you are welcome to your beliefs just don't express them" thing is kind of disturbing as well.

...that's my opinion on the subject.


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## arnisador (Aug 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> People at an accident scene report an unknown clergyman assisted at the scene. Whats the big religious harm in this particular instance??



The (small) harm is encouraging people to believe that they will be saved by prayer and angels rather than technology and emergency personnel in a car accident.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 11, 2013)

*TG*, I like the analogy with which you state your position on my responses to religious threads (assuming you were directly addressing just me and not a wider audience?).  To me, you see, whenever I read this screen, I am conversing with guests in *my* house and that means that I don't have to put up with things that I find offensive, even from people that I otherwise like and respect.  Not reading the threads is not an acceptable answer any more than I can ignore someone talking in my earshot about something I find distasteful at a fundamental level.  

You will likely think I don't have the right not to be offended - I disagree with you; not having to supinely submit to being offended is a basic human right in my book (it may be a cultural difference between us?).  I know that cuts both ways, which is why I say that I am perfectly happy for you to believe what you want, just don't air views you know I find deeply offensive in my presence.  If you do, unless it is an academic exploration of themes and concepts, then I will react.  I don't see how that isn't coming across as consistent to you and I can't think of a simpler way to put across what I mean.

On matters of politics, I have over the years gotten to a point where I accede that I can do nothing to change peoples minds when those minds are made up.  On matters of religion, however, I find the subject *so* repugnant that I have not yet reached a level of ennui where I can stay silent when it is raised.  Maybe one year I can, when my conscience has withered through exposure to the evil of man to the point that I no longer care what has been done in the name of gods and I will stay quiet. 

I don't think you understand just how deep my stance is on this - I don't just argue or point the wiggly-finger-of-lie-popping at religious threads because I want to have an argument or I take pleasure in upsetting people.  I genuinely hold organised religion (and that is a distinction I am tired of having to make to those here who are otherwise my friends) to be the greatest evil humanity has spawned.  It has caused more death, torture, hate and degradation than anything else and has held us back as a species for about two thousand years now.  If you were to ask me what is the one thing that I hold the most strong negative opinion of, it would be religion by a huge margin. 

On a personal level, by the lights and tenets that most of the Christian religious organisations follow and hold to be true, your loving god killed my wife; you can imagine how angry I would be and what I'd have to say to the fellow if he really existed and how little truck I would have with your defending him.

So the fact that I usually say nothing and am actually bothering to try and explain my position to you is something I'd like a little credit for .

As noted I have said my piece and have only responded again because I was directly addressed, so, for the sake of everyone's peace, I shall leave this thread alone now.


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2013)

arnisador said:


> The (small) harm is encouraging people to believe that they will be saved by prayer and angels rather than technology and emergency personnel in a car accident.



Ridiculous assertion. Did the EMS personnel at any time lay down their tools and let "god" get her out? Did the victim tell the EMS personnel to stop?

So if I get shot tomorrow and I pray does that mean I don't think the doctors will need to work on me?


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> *TG*, I like the analogy with which you state your position on my responses to religious threads (assuming you were directly addressing just me and not a wider audience?).  To me, you see, whenever I read this screen, I am conversing with guests in *my* house and that means that I don't have to put up with things that I find offensive, even from people that I otherwise like and respect.  Not reading the threads is not an acceptable answer any more than I can ignore someone talking in my earshot about something I find distasteful at a fundamental level.



So this thread just pops up on it's own in your house and demands you read it? You didn't have to click on the thread to "let yourself in" on the conversation??

Please Suk....


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## Sukerkin (Aug 11, 2013)

:lol: I give up - fear not I shall take my ridiculous attitudes elsewhere .


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## granfire (Aug 11, 2013)

can we please get back to the original news?

Like...there was a bad accident and somebody did not die...GOOD NEWS...

who the he** cares how or why. Something nice for a change.



ok, I am not helping, am I....

:angel:
(can I use this in this context?)


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2013)

Actually Gran..if you read the OP, other than the use of the word "Angel" there really wasn't any explicit religious statement. Of course that never stops people from commenting/belittling as long as an inference can be drawn. If this was a thread about an "anti abortionist" killing a doctor I could see the connection. But that's not the case here....


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## arnisador (Aug 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Actually Gran..if you read the OP, other than the use of the word "Angel" there really wasn't any explicit religious statement.





grumpywolfman said:


> Witnesses say he appeared at the scene of a  Missouri car accident Sunday, anointed and prayed with the teenage  victim and then vanished without a trace.
> 
> "Officials are still scratching their heads over the priest, who they  say appeared out of nowhere. Perhaps more mysteriously, the local fire  chief said he does not appear in any of 80 photos from the accident  scene...We're looking for the priest and so far, no one has seen him.  Whether it was a priest as an angel or an actual angel, he was an angel  to all..."
> 
> Read the article at: *foxnews*



Yup...completely devoid of any religious aspect at all.


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## granfire (Aug 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Actually Gran..if you read the OP, other than the use of the word "Angel" there really wasn't any explicit religious statement. Of course that never stops people from commenting/belittling as long as an inference can be drawn. If this was a thread about an "anti abortionist" killing a doctor I could see the connection. But that's not the case here....



A friend called me angel once, because I shelved my mundane plans to take her to the doctor's office one time. 

Does that mean I am sporting wings? Or a halo?
Nope, I am still the same ole devil I was all along.

Yep the religious tone was a little over the top, but if you live where I am, you get used to it. Does not even register anymore.
I am just seeing a need for something good in the majority of people, being bombarded left and right with bad news all the time.
No jobs, no money, war, drought, floods, kidnappings, murders....

So we finally hear something nice.
I, for one, am not going to question on whether it was an angel or just a flasher in the wrong place. 
We all can be somebody's angel. And it does not matter what we believe. 
Sometimes we just need a little glimps of light. Just a tiny bit. 

It's all good.

It was not needed to go all 'OMG ANGEL'
nor react to it. 

Kind of like the movie 'Hero' with Dustin Hoffman....we need that little miracle once in a while.

So there: yeah praying guy. you made the day for some people. Good for him!


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## Balrog (Aug 12, 2013)

billc said:


> He does what he does...he tends to have a much larger view of the entire world than we do...we won't know why he does what he does until we die and can possibly ask him...if one believes in an after life, where there is no pain, or suffering for the innocent, for what we think may be eternity...hmmmm...
> 
> Here is a question which has probably been debated before...but what if our current existence on Earth is actually what we would call Hell...I mean...could a better place for punishment have been created by anyone?



_Faust._  And what are you that you live with Lucifer?_Mephistophilis__._  Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer,Conspird against our God with Lucifer,And are for ever damnd with Lucifer.[SIZE=-2]_        70_[/SIZE] _Faust._  Where are you damnd? _Meph._  In hell. _Faust._  How comes it then that thou art out of hell? _Meph._  Why this is hell, nor am I out of it.

Sorry, had to quote Faust in response to that.

You said "He does what He does", referring to God.  You've make a definitive statement about the actions of a god, so before any further discussion can continue, there has to be proof of the existence of that god or of a god of any kind.  Please provide that proof.


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## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2013)

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/08/1...h-scene-pray-victim-mysteriously-disappearing

He was found


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## Carol (Aug 13, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/08/1...h-scene-pray-victim-mysteriously-disappearing
> 
> He was found



Well, that's enough to make me want to pull out my Father Dowling mysteries books 

I'm glad he could offer some comfort the folks in a very desperate situation.  I can't say I would have blamed him had he chosen to remain anonymous.  I'd be horrified if I saw my name in print for any rescues I helped with on the mountain.


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## harlan (Aug 13, 2013)

With respect, I bow and honor the Christ, the angel, the bodhisattva in each person.

Even when my own eyes can't see it.


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## arnisador (Aug 13, 2013)

Good for him!


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## grumpywolfman (Aug 13, 2013)

*There is nothing wrong in my opinion of being in the right place, at the right time, for the right reasons.*

_Once upon a time_, I wanted to get into a high paying union job as a lineman. In my neck of the woods, the lines for the application process for union jobs goes around the block with little chance for the average Joe of landing it ... unless of course you have a name to drop. That's how a buddy of mine from high school got in (his dad is a big wig at Edison), and he offered me that same 'opportunity.' I got up that morning and figured it was going to be a long drive, and a long wait; so, I grabbed something to read (a copy of the New Testament). After I got down there and seen the long line going out the door, I stayed in my car and stared at the line for a while. I remembered back to the many times I applied for union jobs in the past, and thought about how it wouldn't be fair to the other guys like me to get that job only because I knew somebody. I asked myself by who's name do I want to prosper in life by? I chose a different name, and decided to pull out of the parking lot and see what might happen based on that decision. My mind wondered a little bit, and I ended up taking a different route home. I seen a man laying on the ground near a bus stop, so I decided to 'apply for the job.' He was drunk, and without his driver's license - a priest had taken it away from him (for his own protection), and asked him to leave their rehab program. I found out when the priest would return that day so that I could speak with him. While we waited, I bought him lunch, been a listening ear and we prayed. When we got to the rehab center there was still a little bit of a wait, and my new friend was feeling very dry for his next drink. I grabbed that book I brought with me, and I read it to him at a picnic table until he felt at peace. Then we prayed again and he fell asleep. I went inside and convinced the priest to give him one more try, I asked him to pray with him when he woke, and to let me leave before he woke him. The priest asked me, "I see you're going to be his 'angel'?" I laughed, "noo not me, its because he didn't want me to leave him."

I never claimed I believed it was an angel in the news story; but I also _didn't_ say that I didn't believe that it could be possible. My hope is that some day, that the person who's name I decided to place my trust in will speak on my behalf to his "Father."


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## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2013)

Just because the "angel" was flesh and blood doesn't mean there wasn't divine intervention at play.  I've had many unexplained or strange "coincidences"  to happen for it all to be chance.


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## arnisador (Aug 13, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Just because the "angel" was flesh and blood doesn't mean there wasn't divine intervention at play.  I've had many unexplained or strange "coincidences"  to happen for it all to be chance.



It was chance. Those are aspects of the human experience shared with those of other religions (or none at all). What convinces you to be Christian convinces someone else to be Muslim or Buddhist or what have you.


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## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2013)

arnisador said:


> It was chance. Those are aspects of the human experience shared with those of other religions (or none at all). What convinces you to be Christian convinces someone else to be Muslim or Buddhist or what have you.



Once or twice yes chance but as many times as I've seen not so much.  I was once an anti Christian Atheists went out of my way to put down make fun of and "prove" Christians wrong.  

You can only get helped out or in the right place at right time so many times at some point its beyond luck or chance and its the Lord saying pay attention boy I'm here.
I'm not trying to convince you or convert you or anyone else.  Just my experiences have led me to my beliefs.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 13, 2013)

Much like my father there, *Ballen*.  

For me it has been the reverse journey.  I went from being devout to being, as noted earlier, so disgusted by the edifice of organised religion that it is *the* thing I hold in the worst regard.  Leaving aside the faiths as a separate bone of contention, bar two people (outside my immediate family), everyone I have ever been close to or cared for has been killed young by disease or accident.  The latest loss being the worst, exceeding the pain of the sum of all my losses by an unimaginable amount.  So if there is a divinity ... well, as I said to *TG*, you can guess I'll be wanting some words when the time comes (and it is only the promise I gave my wife stopping that time being now (well that and the distress I would cause my parents)).

I don't want to derail this thread any more than we have tho - and I apologise to *Grumpy* for that and to all who hold sincere beliefs for whom my lack of tact may have been hard to swallow :bows head in shame:.


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## Tgace (Aug 13, 2013)

Ever read Job...?

Think Christ had an easy time of it?

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Sukerkin (Aug 13, 2013)

Aye, tho not for thirty odd years I do confess.


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## ballen0351 (Aug 13, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Much like my father there, *Ballen*.
> 
> For me it has been the reverse journey.  I went from being devout to being, as noted earlier, so disgusted by the edifice of organised religion that it is *the* thing I hold in the worst regard.  Leaving aside the faiths as a separate bone of contention, bar two people, everyone I have ever been close to or cared for has been killed young by disease or accident.  The latest loss being the worst, exceeding the pain of the sum of all my losses by an unimaginable amount.  So if there is a divinity ... well, as I said to *TG*, you can guess I'll be wanting some words when the time comes.
> 
> I don't want to derail this thread any more than we have tho - and I apologise to *Grumpy* for that and to all who hold sincere beliefs for whom my lack of tact may have been hard to swallow :bows head in shame:.



I think there is a huge difference between organized religion and belief in God.  Religions are run by people and can be twisted and corrupted.  
I understand your views on a God.  I too am currently in a struggle with understanding my 7 year old son is having some medical issues and we got some possible devastating news.  My only comfort is that Gods plan is beyond my understanding.  I have no right to try to convert or convince anyone as my own path has been FAR from the path that God would expect.  I have no idea why he has saved me so many times other then he doesn't want me up there yet I have not earned my place.  
I wouldn't expect you or Arni or anyone to change your views on a post on a forum.  To took repeated beatings to the head by God saying open your eyes I'm right here for me to figure it out for myself.  
I've seen too much evil for there not to be Good out there.
Its hard to explain as I'm not educated in things like the Bible or Church but I know what I know You know?


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## Tgace (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO...from the perspective of God...I would think that our suffering in this life is analgous to my teen age daughters thinking that "life is over" when a boy won't notice them...or when some band breaks up. If our perspective on life broadens so much over a space of a couple decades....how much more so between our experience and Gods?

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Sukerkin (Aug 13, 2013)

Ack, system says I can't Rep you mate .  But this:

*I think there is a huge difference between organized religion and belief in God. Religions are run by people and can be twisted and corrupted.*

Is something I whole-heartedly agree on.  It's why I try to make clear that it is religion rather than a given persons personal faith that I have such deep antipathy for.  As Elder and BillM know well, I disagree in my bones with their spiritual beliefs but I would stand at their shoulder if anyone tried to persecute them for holding those beliefs.


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## elder999 (Aug 13, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Just because the "angel" was flesh and blood doesn't mean there wasn't divine intervention at play.  I've had many unexplained or strange "coincidences"  to happen for it all to be chance.



Just because there was "divine intervention at play," doesn't mean that it was "God," or one of His dogs-of-war, otherwise known as "angels."






(Should you get the chance, you should see Chuck Brodsky-a marvelous songwriter, picker, and human being.)


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## arnisador (Aug 13, 2013)

The Archangel Gabriel (Christopher Walken)  speaks in the movie The Prophecy:



> Gabriel: I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities  into salt[...]and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your  existence is never understanding why.


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## grumpywolfman (Aug 14, 2013)

"Miracle Priest revealed": Rev. Patrick Dowling

Flesh and blood after all, but I'm not at all disappointed in what he had to say in the interview 

[video]http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/guardian-angel-revealed-crash-survivor-meets-mystery-priest-19944826[/video]


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## grumpywolfman (Aug 14, 2013)

arnisador said:


> The Archangel Gabriel (Christopher Walken)  speaks in the movie The Prophecy:



I can always count on your posts to have more cowbell Arni.


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