# Are belts the way to go (from a brown belt)?



## Charlie B (Jul 20, 2021)

I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.

I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.

First up, I'm not bitter, I wasn't good. I got very flustered on the forms we were tested on and in particular the dummy. I admire our Sifu and he really knows his stuff so this is in no way a criticism of him.

My biggest concern is that I'm not sure I'm progressing. I started wing chun for the self defence benefits and I said I wasn't going to take any belts, but then I've but carried along with the process a bit and now I feel like they're being used as a measure of progress, when I'm not sure they always are. In some ways I'm glad I failed as it's making me reflect; in some ways I've been training very specifically for the grading in terms of the combinations we're asked to demonstrate, but I don't think I necessarily understand what I'm doing and doubt I could use it in a real confrontation. Rather I've learned to recite a series of mechanical movements in order to gain a belt. We do very little contact training, given this has been impacted negatively by covid but I'm wondering if I need to change clubs to somewhere less 'belt focused'?


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## Callen (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


Welcome to MartialTalk, Charlie B!

After 5 years of Wing Chun, you should definitely feel like you're progressing in the system. The fact that you may not understand what you're doing, given the amount of time you have invested, is also an indicator that you are not training properly.

I would suggest making a serious assessment. You have to dig deep and determine the quality of your training effort vs. what you are being taught. That’s what matters most, not the color of a belt. Wing Chun is concept based, and as you're now realizing, it's impossible to just memorize movements and combinations and fully develop the concepts and principles of the system. The way you train has a direct result on your understanding of the system and the ability to use it effectively.

Have you spoken to your Sifu about this? In my opinion, that should be the first thing you do.


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## MadMartigan (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I'm wondering if I need to change clubs to somewhere less 'belt focused'?


To put it simply... no ... unless you want to of course. 
The 'belt focus' you speak of (while it may form part of of the general culture in a club) does not have to be *your* focus.

Unless these gradings are mandatory twice per year; you don't have to take every one. If you're not ready... don't test. Let your Sifu come to you and ask why you're not signed up for 'x' test date (often a pretty good indicator that you're getting close to ready).


Charlie B said:


> I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.


This is one of the primary benefits of the belt system. We all respond to different motivations: and breaking things down into bite sized portions is helpful for many. 
My Wing Chun experience is minimal; and they didn't use belts at all where I trained vs my TKD and BJJ experience where belts are a common aspect of training. 
I see no problem with either method.


Charlie B said:


> Rather I've learned to recite a series of mechanical movements in order to gain a belt.


Sounds like you've already identified what you need to change. It can be easy to get caught up in rushing towards that next outwardly visible achievement. 
Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that the belt is only a symbol. 
If you don't feel that your skill/understanding matches the color around your waist... slow down. Wearing a certain color belt doesn't mean anything unless I actually can represent what that belt is supposed to mean.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I recently failed my second brown.


This is good.  Shows that the instructor has standards and is not simply handing belts out.  Do you know what you need to improve on?  Work on it.  Next time, you know when you get a belt, you've really earned it.  Progress is not always a straight line forward.


Charlie B said:


> I don't think I necessarily understand what I'm doing and doubt I could use it in a real confrontation. Rather I've learned to recite a series of mechanical


This is bad.  If the instructor has not taught you the applications for your techniques he is not doing his job.  Maybe he doesn't even know?  It happens.  As already mentioned, talk to your instructor. Just admit exactly what you posted here.

ID the problem, find a fix, implement fix and you're on your way.


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## Poppity (Jul 21, 2021)

I'd not worry about the belt side of it but instead have a really good think about your other point...

"I don't think I necessarily understand what I'm doing and doubt I could use it in a real confrontation. Rather I've learned to recite a series of mechanical movements in order to gain a belt. We do very little contact training"

...and think about what you want from the martial art your training.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with belt systems. They can be used to carve up an extensive curriculum so at a glance an instructor knows who has covered what.

Absolutely there are schools which hand out belts all over the place as a money making scheme... But equally back when I did competition taekwondo people weren't graded for a long time purposefully so they would compete better in their belt class. Each school with belts uses them in different ways.

It sounds from what you've said that your school might have ended up using the belt system to help the instructor remember what areas he has covered rather than ensuring the level of understanding a student has.

If you are unsure of your own ability to apply maybe see if some of the other students are happy to meet down the park and try out their skills in a light sparring setting.  I'd recommend videoing it and then analysing whether you are over-reaching, over stepping, in range, compromising your structure etc. Etc.


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## drop bear (Jul 21, 2021)

Go do a boxing match. Then you will see where you sit in the scale of a real confrontation. And what you need to work on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


How belts/ranks are used - by the school and by the student - determines whether they are a good fit for any given individual (and group). There are benefits, including the things you pointed out. There are also drawbacks if you end up focusing too much on the rank, itself, rather than the work that gets you there. And that's not a poke at you - I think many of us have done that at times. I will say that sometimes being close to a rank for too long led me to do some work to finally get to testing (some of our tests included baseline material not really covered much up to that point, so left up to the student), and that extra work was beneficial.

But, as you've noticed, belts and ranking can't really accurately measure overall capability evenly, unless they are entirely based on who can beat whom (without regard to whether they are using the style the rank represents). Some styles (I'm looking at you, BJJ) manage pretty well, since they don't hold too much to "style". But if someone came in and was able to make their way thorugh the ranks without using anything learned in the school, that rank isn't really a BJJ rank, IMO.

And then you have the question of how to recognize technical ability, as opposed to "fighting skill". How do you recognize those who really "get" the art, but maybe are older or have some other limitation that makes them less able at the fighting/sparring/rolling/randori part?

So belts/ranks have issues. I'm not sure just not having them doesn't present its own set. Since some folks are well-motivated by rank, removing that rank means they no longer have that extra motivation to keep them moving (and most of us know that problem happens in many styles at BB, as well). And where the rank does give some quick info on where someone is in the style (in my primary art, it tells you which techniques they've been trained in, so which falls they are ready for, and a few other bits of information), then not having those ranks means having less information when working with someone new (or someone you simply haven't had a chance to work with in a while).

There are plenty of places - in many styles - that do quite fine without belts. There are plenty of places - in many styles - that do quite well with belts. I've trained both ways, and have a _slight _preference for ranks. I'm convinced at this point it's mostly irrelevant whether they exist or not in a given school. If you enjoy the training and it focuses on what you like to focus on, then it's all good.


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## Yokozuna514 (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


You've been given a lot of feedback to reflect on and the only thing I have to add is, what do you feel YOU need to do to get back to the state your were in before your failed.  

You failed a belt test and this has caused you to reflect on the reasons why you failed.   This is a good process to use as it allows us to understand and deal with feelings and emotions when we are 'unsuccessful'.   It teaches us about ourselves and how we deal with adversity.   Regardless of the reason you failed (eg:  unpreparedness, nerves, just a bad day......etc) has made you question your focus for the past 5  years.   Is the reason you failed internal or external ?  The more you look, the more you will learn about how YOU deal with things that do not go your way.   Remember, this is a 'belt level' so what does that really mean ?   Can you take the corrections given and improve to succeed the next time ?  Would you want to ?   Would it be better to switch clubs ?   What will you do when you things do not go your way there ?  

Forgive me if the questions seem rude but as part of your reflection, remember that the club was 'fine' before you 'failed' the test.  Not to say that the club is 'fine' because now you see that there is very little contact and perhaps is a little too focused on 'belt promotions' compared to other clubs but this did not seem to bother you before the test.  Personally I prefer my MA with 'full contact' but not everyone likes spicy food and that is fine with me.    Food for thought and good luck with your journey.


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## Charlie B (Jul 21, 2021)

Thanks all for that overwhelmingly thoughtful and supportive advice.

ALL of the above comments are food for thought:

On reflection perhaps I am a little bitter - I told my sifu that I didn't want to take the grade as I wasn't ready and I was encouraged not to worry and that it would be fine - I should have trusted my own judgement in this case. And I felt that going to the grading was a show of solidarity with the Sifu whose livelihood has been all but destroyed by Covid lockdowns and restrictions in our region. So I didn't expect a free ride - but maybe the Sifu wasn't aware that I was really struggling with some parts ahead of the day. Background to this is that it's virtually unheard of for someone to fail a belt - I've only heard anecdotally - so I do feel I've been shot down to some extent and I know that I will be subject of conversation in the club so will find it difficult to walk in with my head held high.

Some of the things I like about the class are the generally laid back approach - I've previously trained in Jiu Jitsu and it was so aggressive I was literally scared of making mistakes. This definitely suited some people but not myself.

And now I'm seeing that what failure has made me see that, although I probably knew I wasn't progressing well, the twice-yearly belts acted as an ego boost which pushed this concern to the back of my mind for a while. 

I suppose my aim now is to work out whether I can engage with the class, and with my training/study outside the class in a way that I can achieve what I want to, or whether I need to rethink. For example I I find classes a difficult environment to get a really comprehensive understanding of detailed processes such as wooden dummy form, and then it's difficult to study this outside as each Sifu has a slightly different way of doing it. 

Anyway - this forum seems like a really supportive place so thanks again for all of your time.

CB


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> We do very little contact training, given this has been impacted negatively by covid but I'm wondering if I need to change clubs to somewhere less 'belt focused'?


If there's a woman I like, and I don't ask her out on a date, she can't say no.  But even if I take that mindset on, one thing remains true: I'm still attracted to her, and I'm choosing not to do anything about it.

I think that if you choose a martial art without a belt-rank system _because_ it lacks a belt-rank system, it's a similar mindset. You're consciously choosing a martial art where a particular thing doesn't exist so that you won't feel bad for not achieving it.  But deep down, you know you still want it.

I say stay the course.  You'll be glad that you did.


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## Yokozuna514 (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> Thanks all for that overwhelmingly thoughtful and supportive advice.
> 
> ALL of the above comments are food for thought:
> 
> ...


It takes courage to pick yourself up and go back.   No one will dispute your tenacity for overcoming adversity and so what if people give you jibes.   That says more about them than it does about you.   

Whatever you decide to do make sure it is the best decision for YOU and not because of anything that was said to you or because you are the centre of chatter for the moment.   Water coolers have a short memory and often tend to go to the next piece of interesting gossip.   If you want to be part of place that has this type of environment is a legitimate question.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 21, 2021)

Just as a note, There are no belt/sash ranks in Traditionally Chinese martial arts, and Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinee Martial Art. This would have been added after it left China and got to wherever you are.

If you like the testing go for it. But I've been in TCMA for awfully darn close to 30 years in multiple TCMA styles, and only ran across a colored sash system in one , which was a Wing Chun school run by a person I know, who trained in a system that had no colored belts. He added them because his students seemed to be better motivated when they had goals to aim for.


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## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

sounds like you've be very introspective and thoughtful.  Lots of great suggestions.  Only thing I'd add is that you mention lack of contact.  If you can't get that from your school, may not mean you have to leave the school.  If you like what you're learning, you can always try to find ways to add more contact on your own. This might be finding some like-minded students in your school, or perhaps meeting up with folks from other MA styles to do some cross training.  If you haven't used the skills in any kind of contact, you will probably be pretty bad at it, at least at first.  One of the first things folks learn in any kind of competitive art is that everyone sucks at first, and it's nothing to be ashamed of.  Learning is a process.

Only other thing to say is, I recommend being open and transparent with your sifu.  If he's got a problem with you working out with other martial artists outside of class to develop your WC skills... that might be a red flag.  I mean, if you aren't getting what you believe is sufficient contact within the school, and are discouraged from seeking it outside of the school...  that's a problem.  That's where you get into the self defense snake oil arena.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> My biggest concern is that I'm not sure I'm progressing.


Ask yourself the following questions:

- Am I grow tall, or am I grow fat?
- What principles that I have learned? What principles that I will learn?


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## Martial D (Jul 21, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


Belts? In wing chun?

Lol ok then.


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## Charlie B (Jul 21, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Belts? In wing chun?
> 
> Lol ok then.


Don't know what that means. Just that most clubs don't use them?


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## APL76 (Jul 21, 2021)

As a person who runs a wing chun school I can tell you (as someone above has already) that a belt makes it really easy for me to look at what's hanging around someone's waist and it immediately remind me where a person is, roughly, in terms of learning the system. So they are great when you have a room full of people and a fairly regulated curriculum. They can also have the affect of inspiring students to achieve the next one though that's not really a consideration for me personally. 

The more important issue from what you have written concerns you feeling as though you are not progressing.

I can think of a number of possible reasons for this, and there might be a mixture of them to of course.

Firstly, learning goes through stages of uptake that happens reasonably quickly, then consolidation of what you have learned in which you refine what you are doing. Then, usually you begin to understand on a mental level what you are doing more deeply, and how it fits into a bigger picture. Its at this understanding stage that we often plateau off in physical ability vis a vis our understanding of what we are doing. Indeed, you may actually feel as though you are getting worse because your understanding and expectations overtake what you can physically deliver. You could be at this stage of learning. It does tend to happen periodically throughout the months and years, but it can also happen on a much bigger scale in terms of learning the overall art rather than just techniques and so on. From my observations of years at my Sifu's school, as well as my own, not to mention having gone through it myself, 3 to 5 years seems to be about one of the points at which it happens on a bigger scale. The good thing is that the plateau is usually followed, eventually, by a new phase of uptake and also eventually, the whole cycle sort of fades away. It did for me at least.

Secondly, foundations will set a limit on what you will be able to achieve. That is to say, if you have fairly shallow foundations, or none at all, then you will plateau off and not really progress much past that unless you go back and do the foundation training. From observations I have made, that is usually at about the 5 year mark of training. For an illustration of what I mean you could go to a few wing chun schools and see how different the people there are between one who has trained for 5 years and one who has been at it for 10 or more. If there is a marked difference, I'd be willing to bet that the school puts more emphasis on foundation training. If you can't tell the difference I'd be guessing that they don't much emphasise foundations. 

Thirdly, the overall nature of training changes the more you have learned. When you are making your way through learning the forms, chi sao, and whatever techniques you have to go along with all that, its a much more 1 to 1 focus in learning and progress. That is to say you learn x you practice x and gradually get better at x; then you lean y, and so on. You learn x, Y and Z, it becomes more about coordinating them and perhaps a bit if refining them. When you have the whole alphabet its much more about making it your own. And also once you have it all its not so much about learning new things, and 'progressing' as you had to that point, but more about a constant and generally fairly slow "polishing" of what you already have. 


There's some thoughts about what you might be dealing with anyway. I'd recommend having a chat with your Sifu about it.


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## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Belts? In wing chun?
> 
> Lol ok then.


When I did WC in the 80s, the school I trained in had belts.  They sparred too.  I only trained for a little over a year, and then got into wrestling at school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If there's a woman I like, and I don't ask her out on a date, she can't say no.  But even if I take that mindset on, one thing remains true: I'm still attracted to her, and I'm choosing not to do anything about it.
> 
> I think that if you choose a martial art without a belt-rank system _because_ it lacks a belt-rank system, it's a similar mindset. You're consciously choosing a martial art where a particular thing doesn't exist so that you won't feel bad for not achieving it.  But deep down, you know you still want it.
> 
> I say stay the course.  You'll be glad that you did.


That's a lot of assumption about why some folks don't prefer belt systems. It comes off as condescending.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> Don't know what that means. Just that most clubs don't use them?


For some reason, some folks find it necessary to mock when belts are added to systems that traditionally didn't have them.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That's a lot of assumption about why some folks don't prefer belt systems. It comes off as condescending.


I'm going off of what he said.  Unlike some people here, I can read.  In case you missed them, here are the facts:

1.  This thread exists in the first place because the OP didn't make brown belt, and he's feeling down about it.  We wouldn't be talking right now if this wasn't the case.

2.  A result of this, the OP is considering choosing another place to go that does not have a belt ranking system.  He mentioned no other criteria, other than the lack of a belt ranking system.

Funny how there's nothing but positivity in this thread, until you come along and screw it up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm going off of what he said.  Unlike some people here, I can read.  In case you missed them, here are the facts:
> 
> 1.  This thread exists in the first place because the OP didn't make brown belt, and he's feeling down about it.  We wouldn't be talking right now if this wasn't the case.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you didn't read his comments fully. He's wondering if the belt ranking distracted him from his goal. Which would mean that looking for something without ranking would be for a purpose other than avoiding ranks he can't reach.

I didn't read your post as positive, at all.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps you didn't read his comments fully. He's wondering if the belt ranking distracted him from his goal. Which would mean that looking for something without ranking would be for a purpose other than avoiding ranks he can't reach.


No, you didn't.  Re-read number 1.  That's why we're here in the first place.


gpseymour said:


> I didn't read your post as positive, at all.


Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me.  Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something.  Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

APL76 said:


> As a person who runs a wing chun school I can tell you (as someone above has already) that a belt makes it really easy for me to look at what's hanging around someone's waist and it immediately remind me where a person is, roughly, in terms of learning the system. So they are great when you have a room full of people and a fairly regulated curriculum. They can also have the affect of inspiring students to achieve the next one though that's not really a consideration for me personally.


I always thought that Chinese martial arts with a ranking system used sashes.

Though I've seen various Chinese martial artists on YouTube that wear karate dogis, and one even explained why (I can't remember what that reason was).

It appears that, much like the modern men's suit - which originated in the UK in the late 19th century - has become the worldwide standard in men's formalwear; the Japanese dogi seems to be taking on that role for martial arts with long curriculums.


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## APL76 (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I always thought that Chinese martial arts with a ranking system used sashes.
> 
> Though I've seen various Chinese martial artists on YouTube that wear karate dogis, and one even explained why (I can't remember what that reason was).
> 
> It appears that, much like the modern men's suit - which originated in the UK in the late 19th century - has become the worldwide standard in men's formalwear; the Japanese dogi seems to be taking on that role for martial arts with long curriculums.


Well true, we do use coloured sashes rather than a belt like karate, but calling it a belt or sash, same same as far as purpose for this discussion.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm going off of what he said.  Unlike some people here, I can read.  In case you missed them, here are the facts:
> 
> 1.  This thread exists in the first place because the OP didn't make brown belt, and he's feeling down about it.  We wouldn't be talking right now if this wasn't the case.
> 
> ...


You're right that the OP mentioned belts, and that the failure to be promoted to brown belt was the catalyst for his post.  However, in addition to belts, he mentions lack of contact and concern that he is not progressing.  In fact, he says that feeling like he's not progressing is his primary concern.  Just going off what he wrote.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me.  Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something.  Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."


I think you're on to something there.  The establishment does have a bad habit of pigeon holing folks.  Like Gandalf, you have been officially labeled a disturber of the peace.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> You're right that the OP mentioned belts, and that the failure to be promoted to brown belt was the catalyst for his post.  *However, in addition to belts, he mentions lack of contact and concern that he is not progressing.  In fact, he says that feeling like he's not progressing is his primary concern.*  Just going off what he wrote.



We have to read between the lines, though.  Look at when he posted this thread - after failing the test.  He wasn't questioning his progress beforehand.

I say this with respect to the OP, but what if there was no belt ranking system at his club?  His progression would have been exactly the same, the only difference is that wherever he thought his progression was before the test, he'd still be able to continue thinking that without anyone bursting his bubble.

I'm not saying that the OP should want a belt-ranking system; I'm saying that there are likely other things at play here that need to be resolved.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> We have to read between the lines, though.  Look at when he posted this thread - after failing the test.  He wasn't questioning his progress beforehand.
> 
> I say this with respect to the OP, but what if there was no belt ranking system at his club?  His progression would have been exactly the same, the only difference is that wherever he thought his progression was before the test, he'd still be able to continue thinking that without anyone bursting his bubble.
> 
> I'm not saying that the OP should want a belt-ranking system; I'm saying that there are likely other things at play here that need to be resolved.


Hold on.  I get what you're saying and to be clear, I agree with most of it.  But you can't admonish @gseymour for not reading the posts, say you actually do read the post, and then dismiss some very clear and direct statements.  

If we disagree on anything, it's what is between the lines.  When I read it, and the OP's subsequent responses, I get the impression that lack of progress and feeling like he's not actually able to do the things he's learning are his primary concerns.  He admits getting caught up with chasing belts, but imposter syndrome is pretty common in traditional martial arts, and there are very easy and practical ways to address it.

But all that is academic, because (unless we've discouraged him from posting any more), we can just ask him.


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## Martial D (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> For some reason, some folks find it necessary to mock when belts are added to systems that traditionally didn't have them.


Because it's a cash grab. CMA that sell belts are mcdojos


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Because it's a cash grab. CMA that sell belts are mcdojos


Some for sure.  But that school I trained at in high school had some pretty tough dudes in it.  Looks like it's still around:  Greenlake Martial Arts |Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu |Self-Defense| Seattle, WA | U. District | Ballard

Called Tsun Jo now, but in the mid-80s, it was a Wing Chun school.  I don't know how good it is for self defense, but they could fight.


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## MadMartigan (Jul 22, 2021)




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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> No, you didn't.  Re-read number 1.  That's why we're here in the first place.
> 
> Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me.  Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something.  Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."



'Infamy, infamy...... they've all got it in for me'

Lovers of Carry on films (a select band) will know who said that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

So i just skimmed the thread, but it seems to have devolved into the whole "belts are ego/insecurity/money-making schemes". I get that viewpoint, but don't agree. I've trained in systems/schools both with belts and without. It's very low on my list of priorities when visiting a school, but I do like belts, for a couple reasons.

1. I'm a very organized individual. And can get information overload fairly easily. If I know that, learning something new, at X belt I should be learning Y, that's what I'll do. And then keep learning Y when I move onto Z, but it sets up a progression for me that I'm not having to figure out by myself.

2. I'm human. It is motivating to have something to strive for. I feel a sense of accomplishment when I achieve it, and I know that I have to work harder if either I a: am not offered a promotion/test when I thought I was ready (has happened), or b: failed a test (has also happened). Like I said, I'll still train systems without it, so I don't need that motivation, but having an extra goal is certainly not a bad thing. 

3. In line with two-it provides feedback. I've got no issue directly asking an instructor/coach/partner what I'm doing wrong, but I've seen both new and old students that do. Failing/passing/not being tested provides feedback that you're on the right track, or something's amiss, and can encourage people to ask their instructor what their lacking. 

4. As an experienced martial artist, it helps when I try out a new school. I immediately know who's experienced _relative to the school/class in session. _That means that once I work with one or two people, I can estimate the general level of the belts at the school, and have an idea of where someone will be at when I work with them. So if I spar with a few black belts, and they're not all that accomplished, then I spar with an orange belt, I know from the getgo to take it easy. Vs. If I sparred with the same people, I might think that the "black belts" are newer students, and it would take me longer to feel out the school itself. 

5. It gives new students clear instructions on who to emulate/listen to. I'm sure we've all seen those people with 3 months under their belt (heh), trying to teach everyone else exactly how to do things. If a new student just came in, they might listen to them over someone with more experience, simply because that other student sounds more confident. If they can see a difference in rank, it makes it easier for them to know who to listen to. 

Obviously all of the above have some caveats, it's not perfect and there are negatives of belts. Just thought I'd put in a few reasons why their useful, since I feel like I much more often read all the negatives and not as much of the positives.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Not a shocker at all, because I know you have it out for me. Every time you see me here, it's "Uh oh, Urban Trekker just said something. Lemme stop what I'm doing, and detract from it."


You overestimate your importance to me.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You overestimate your importance to me.


You're demonstrating my importance to you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I always thought that Chinese martial arts with a ranking system used sashes.
> 
> Though I've seen various Chinese martial artists on YouTube that wear karate dogis, and one even explained why (I can't remember what that reason was).
> 
> It appears that, much like the modern men's suit - which originated in the UK in the late 19th century - has become the worldwide standard in men's formalwear; the Japanese dogi seems to be taking on that role for martial arts with long curriculums.


The most common reason I've heard for CMA using a dogi is simply availability - they're usually easier to get than anything Chinese in origin. A couple of places also said that they'd adopted it because the look was popular at the time (during the heyday of MA movies).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Hold on.  I get what you're saying and to be clear, I agree with most of it.  But you can't admonish @gseymour for not reading the posts, say you actually do read the post, and then dismiss some very clear and direct statements.
> 
> If we disagree on anything, it's what is between the lines.  When I read it, and the OP's subsequent responses, I get the impression that lack of progress and feeling like he's not actually able to do the things he's learning are his primary concerns.  He admits getting caught up with chasing belts, but imposter syndrome is pretty common in traditional martial arts, and there are very easy and practical ways to address it.
> 
> But all that is academic, because (unless we've discouraged him from posting any more), we can just ask him.


I read it as the belt progression masking his (now perceived) lack of progress in skill.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Because it's a cash grab. CMA that sell belts are mcdojos


If they sell the actual belts, they usually make a couple of bucks on the belt (literally). If they charge for testing, it depends how that's handled (a $20 testing fee isn't much of a cash grab, and a larger testing fee is a cash grab if it isn't offset by monthly fees being lower).

There's this perception among some that belts = more money. No place I've ever trained (and most had belts at all levels) had enough of a testing fee or promotion fee for it to be worth the trouble. The ranks were there either because they thought them useful, they thought they'd market better, or (most often) simply because that's what they were used to from where they trained.

Perhaps there's more of a correlation among CMA, but just the fact that they have a belt system doesn't really tell us that.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> _reference to deleted post removed - jks9199_


Hold on.  Any self respecting cowboy plays the guitar.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So i just skimmed the thread, but it seems to have devolved into the whole "belts are ego/insecurity/money-making schemes". I get that viewpoint, but don't agree. I've trained in systems/schools both with belts and without. It's very low on my list of priorities when visiting a school, but I do like belts, for a couple reasons.
> 
> 1. I'm a very organized individual. And can get information overload fairly easily. If I know that, learning something new, at X belt I should be learning Y, that's what I'll do. And then keep learning Y when I move onto Z, but it sets up a progression for me that I'm not having to figure out by myself.
> 
> ...


All good points, and I agree 100%.

However, in the martial arts community, people who "chase belts" are often shamed for it (which I don't agree with), presumably because those belts end up becoming a source of validation, or ego, or whatever.

Okay, great.

But can the shoe be put on the other foot to say that consciously choosing a particular art _because_ it lacks a belt ranking system is merely the opposite side of that same coin?

Note that the OP only took issue with the belt ranking system _after_ failing a test. He wasn't trying to seek out a belt-less art before that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> All good points, and I agree 100%.
> 
> However, in the martial arts community, people who "chase belts" are often shamed for it (which I don't agree with), presumably because those belts end up becoming a source of validation, or ego, or whatever.


[/QUOTE]
Agreed. If someone wants to collect belts for the sake of having ranks, I don't really see a problem. I could see it being an issue if someone purposely chooses places where rank is easy to get, then acts as if their ranks make them better than someone training where rank is harder to get.


Urban Trekker said:


> Okay, great.
> 
> But can the shoe be put on the other foot to say that consciously choosing a particular art _because_ it lacks a belt ranking system is merely the opposite side of that same coin?
> 
> Note that the OP only took issue with the belt ranking system _after_ failing a test. He wasn't trying to seek out a belt-less art before that.


The way I look at it, if it's okay to pursue rank rather than focusing directly on the skill progression, it's also okay to want no rank to pursue and just focus directly on skill progression. Just opposite sides of the same coin.


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Hold on.  Any self respecting cowboy plays the guitar.


What do the ones with low self esteem play? 😂
Agreed. If someone wants to collect belts for the sake of having ranks, I don't really see a problem. I could see it being an issue if someone purposely chooses places where rank is easy to get, then acts as if their ranks make them better than someone training where rank is harder to get.

The way I look at it, if it's okay to pursue rank rather than focusing directly on the skill progression, it's also okay to want no rank to pursue and just focus directly on skill progression. Just opposite sides of the same coin.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed, it's really what suits or is best for the student. Accepting someone's path even though it's different from yours is really the only way to be.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> What do the ones with low self esteem play? 😂


They play a really big guitar.


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## Martial D (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Some for sure.  But that school I trained at in high school had some pretty tough dudes in it.  Looks like it's still around:  Greenlake Martial Arts |Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu |Self-Defense| Seattle, WA | U. District | Ballard
> 
> Called Tsun Jo now, but in the mid-80s, it was a Wing Chun school.  I don't know how good it is for self defense, but they could fight.


Sure. But anyone that says..hey I'm a black belt in wing chun..eyes will roll lol. Because there are no belts in CMA..


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## Charlie B (Jul 22, 2021)

Hey (been travelling today and couldn't respond but this became a very long thread).



gpseymour said:


> I read it as the belt progression masking his (now perceived) lack of progress in skill.



That's exactly it - would have I posted this if I'd sailed through - probably not, but I'm reflecting on the process. 

Am I just bitter and disgruntled - no, I'm big enough to know and say if that was the case and other than a little disappointed and embarrassed I am not 'storming off' to another class because I wasn't given a belt/sash (I'm probably using them interchangeably). 

I think I am probably also, to some extent, chasing belts, and like others have said, this can be a positive if, in parallel, you are getting better, but it can be negative if you're treating it like a tick box exercise.

An analogy (which works for me). When I was little my mum made me play the piano for a few years, and the teacher made me take exams. I had to learn 3 pieces of music for each exam. Could I play those pieces well? Yes! But do I consider myself able to play the piano - not at all - I had no understanding of music theory, I just learned the pieces robotically until I was good enough to take the exam.

I know there is some amount of repetition e.g. the forms and I know the classes work for some people. So maybe it's MY attitude that needs to change, I focus on going to classes for a while and learning understanding applications and treat the grading as an 'extra' rather than the sole purpose of training. i.e. decide what my criteria for success is and change my focus.

Hope that makes sense. Thanks again for all your comments.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 22, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> Hey (been travelling today and couldn't respond but this became a very long thread).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most people start out chasing belts, because that's sort of how western culture programs them. Over time, one of three things usually happens:
1 - they quit training
2 - they get their merit badge and quit
3 - they figure out that the belt isn't that important and keep training.
The number of people who continue chasing belts for belts sake is, in my experience, fairly small.


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## Callen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If they sell the actual belts, they usually make a couple of bucks on the belt (literally). If they charge for testing, it depends how that's handled (a $20 testing fee isn't much of a cash grab, and a larger testing fee is a cash grab if it isn't offset by monthly fees being lower).
> 
> There's this perception among some that belts = more money. No place I've ever trained (and most had belts at all levels) had enough of a testing fee or promotion fee for it to be worth the trouble. The ranks were there either because they thought them useful, they thought they'd market better, or (most often) simply because that's what they were used to from where they trained.
> 
> Perhaps there's more of a correlation among CMA, but just the fact that they have a belt system doesn't really tell us that.



I agree with you, it’s not just about money. There are many useful benefits to using the belt system.

The folks that have commented in this post who are from non-Chinese Martial Arts backgrounds are most likely going to justify the belt system… and that’s understandable, because it works for them. Belts are part of their history and training. They represent a proud identity and are the result of a lot of hard work and achievement.

The belt system has also been part of Japanese Martial Arts culture since Jigoro Kano invited it back in the late 1800’s. Others have adopted it seamlessly over the years. Kung Fu styles however, are a bit different when it comes to adopting the belt system. It never gained acceptance in China, so the belt system didn’t make its way into Chinese Martial Arts. That type of reward system does not typically fit Kung Fu curriculum.

Belt systems and ranking are only successful when the curriculum is built to support it. A belt system in Wing Chun (or any Kung Fu style) can be very difficult to maintain correctly, mostly due to the fact that the Wing Chun curriculum is not well suited for that type of progress measurement. That’s typically why most Wing Chun lineages do not use it. Globally speaking, very few do and most do not. 

Since Wing Chun is a concept based system, creating a belt rank for arbitrary intervals of the Wing Chun system can make it tricky for practitioners to continually see the whole picture, but not impossible. There are a few Wing Chun schools that make belts work; but unfortunately in terms of conveying the big picture of the system successfully, there are many Wing Chun schools that have also failed when using the belt system.

I’m not arguing for or against belts. I just wanted to throw out why the majority of Wing Chun practitioners do not feel the need to adopt it into our Chinese Martial Art curriculum.


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## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2021)

Thread locked pending review.

jks9199
Administrator


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## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2021)

You may notice that some posts have been deleted, as they were off topic and disruptive.  Everyone is reminded to avoid personal attacks.  Limited thread drift is natural and accepted.  

jks9199
MT Admin


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## Nuuli (Jul 22, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


Hi Charlie, from what I understand, you've been training in Wing Chun for 5 year but was flustered on the forms and the dummy. Okay, besides class time, how much time are you practicing on the forms. How much time are you devoting to "homework"? Practicing on your own or even hooking up with a classmate to go over what you've learned? And do you have access to a dummy to practice with. Honestly, you'd probably be better off as another said and take up some "boxing", you'll get more quicker with that and more realistic scenarios. You'll get immediate feedback as to how you perform in a high stress situation. There is really no passive way to deal with a violent situation except learning to potential situations. There's more to self defense than physical contact. Right now having good hand skills with grappling is the way to go imho.


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## Charlie B (Jul 23, 2021)

Nuuli said:


> Hi Charlie, from what I understand, you've been training in Wing Chun for 5 year but was flustered on the forms and the dummy. Okay, besides class time, how much time are you practicing on the forms. How much time are you devoting to "homework"? Practicing on your own or even hooking up with a classmate to go over what you've learned? And do you have access to a dummy to practice with. Honestly, you'd probably be better off as another said and take up some "boxing", you'll get more quicker with that and more realistic scenarios. You'll get immediate feedback as to how you perform in a high stress situation. There is really no passive way to deal with a violent situation except learning to potential situations. There's more to self defense than physical contact. Right now having good hand skills with grappling is the way to go imho.


Thanks for this Nuuli, completely agree with all of that and I could do a lot more practicing at home and trying to access a dummy. Learning the forms is so fundamental I should be working on them a lot more consistently. That's something I've struggled with a lot i.e. how to do practice at home.

That's something I think belts are a very good motivation for - they make sure you practice.

Like I say I'm absolutely not blaming anyone but myself for my failure, but was reflecting on whether I was getting better - maybe this was just the kick up the a__ I needed to make me train more wisely. There are a lot of things I love about wing chun and the classes. My post should probably have been called 'how can I get better at WC'.

One question - When you say grappling do you mean wing chun grappling or another martial art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> Hey (been travelling today and couldn't respond but this became a very long thread).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think most of us get into pursuing the rank for its own sake at some point. Mine was sporadic. I'd sit at a rank for much longer than those around me, then suddenly want to be that next rank and train with the test in mind for a month or so. But many of my training partners weren't that sporadic. Some pushed to get to the next rank as fast as they could, because that motivated them. Others wanted to be the best ____ belt (whatever their current rank was) and wouldn't want to promote until they felt like they'd won that "compeition", because that motivated them. Others just drifted along and did what they were told, because the challenge of the class and the sense of community were what motivated them.

Folks who didn't find something to motivate them enough left.

I can't say any of those (including the last group) got it wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Callen said:


> I agree with you, it’s not just about money. There are many useful benefits to using the belt system.
> 
> The folks that have commented in this post who are from non-Chinese Martial Arts backgrounds are most likely going to justify the belt system… and that’s understandable, because it works for them. Belts are part of their history and training. They represent a proud identity and are the result of a lot of hard work and achievement.
> 
> ...


I'm not knowledgeable on WC, so I may be entirely off base here, but I'm not sure ranks are as incompatible with WC as all that. My primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) is - by my understanding - concept-based. The techniques taught are all about developing specific priniciples and mechanics, to the extent that some of the techniques seem quite silly if you try to make them usable in direct application. But those techniques have been divided into groups for belts. The progression was already there, but the belts weren't (no evidence the student ranks existed before it came to the US). The system could be taught without the belts, or even with a different ranking system (I originally reduced it from 5 to 3 colored belts when I changed my curriculum).

I don't think ranks have to be baked into the culture of a system to be usable. Of course, I also don't know it's worth the trouble to add them to a system - you'd have to figure out what the breakpoints are that make sense, and that takes more work than it's likely worth in most cases.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 23, 2021)

I've never set foot into a wing chun kwoon, but when a WC guy says that belts are not incompatible with wing chun, I'll take his word for it.  Mostly because I can imagine the kind of failure it would be to bring belts into boxing or wrestling, so they won't work for every art.


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## Steve (Jul 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I've never set foot into a wing chun kwoon, but when a WC guy says that belts are not incompatible with wing chun, I'll take his word for it.  Mostly because I can imagine the kind of failure it would be to bring belts into boxing or wrestling, so they won't work for every art.


Belts could work very easily in wrestling or boxing.  The reason they aren't there is more to do with culture than function.  BJJ and submission wrestling both use belt systems very effectively in a very similar competitive structure as wrestling.  Only difference is in wrestling, you have intramural, JV, Varsity, various levels of collegiate wrestling.  They're naturally broken out by age and within each broad age category, by skill level, but do the same thing as a belt system: broadly separate people by skill level and age to make competition relatively fair.  

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not suggesting that it's a good idea to introduce belts into freestyle or other styles of wrestling.  Only pointing out that belts are already used successfully in some styles of wrestling (submission/no-gi wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.) and _could_ work just the same in freestyle wrestling, if desired.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 23, 2021)

Steve said:


> Belts could work very easily in wrestling or boxing.  The reason they aren't there is more to do with culture than function.  BJJ and submission wrestling both use belt systems very effectively in a very similar competitive structure as wrestling.  Only difference is in wrestling, you have intramural, JV, Varsity, various levels of collegiate wrestling.  They're naturally broken out by age and within each broad age category, by skill level, but do the same thing as a belt system: broadly separate people by skill level and age to make competition relatively fair.
> 
> Don't get me wrong.  I'm not suggesting that it's a good idea to introduce belts into freestyle or other styles of wrestling.  Only pointing out that belts are already used successfully in some styles of wrestling (submission/no-gi wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.) and _could_ work just the same in freestyle wrestling, if desired.



Here's why I'm saying it wouldn't work in boxing or wrestling: I'm not sure exactly what Callen means when he says that wing chun is "concept-based," but maybe it's similar to this:

- In JMA with belt-rank systems, the focus is initially on individual techniques at the lower ranks.  In the case of karate, for example; every punch, every kick, every block, etc.  In the case of Judo, every throw, every take down, etc.  You continuously do repetition on each, and you learn new ones as you move up.  Again, the focus is on each and every individual technique in the beginning.  And then as you move up, you later begin to look at the big picture.
- In boxing and (western) wrestling, the focus on the big picture is almost immediate.  They'll give you the techniques up front, and then you hone them and become better at executing them from there.

If you introduced belts into boxing or wrestling, the basis of those belts would have to be "how good you are," not what techniques you've demonstrated knowledge of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Here's why I'm saying it wouldn't work in boxing or wrestling: I'm not sure exactly what Callen means when he says that wing chun is "concept-based," but maybe it's similar to this:
> 
> - In JMA with belt-rank systems, the focus is initially on individual techniques at the lower ranks.  In the case of karate, for example; every punch, every kick, every block, etc.  In the case of Judo, every throw, every take down, etc.  You continuously do repetition on each, and you learn new ones as you move up.  Again, the focus is on each and every individual technique in the beginning.  And then as you move up, you later begin to look at the big picture.
> - In boxing and (western) wrestling, the focus on the big picture is almost immediate.  They'll give you the techniques up front, and then you hone them and become better at executing them from there.
> ...


I think BJJ has a similar structure. Their catalog of techniques is pretty flexible. Their ranking is (at least in places I've been to) sometimes based on a foundation set for the first stripes, but mostly based on who you can roll with after that. While I don't see any reason a boxing gym should use ranks, I think they could easily adopt the common BJJ model for ranking.

You're right that the common JMA approach of ranking based on how far you've gotten into the catalog of techniques wouldn't work.


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## MadMartigan (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're right that the common JMA approach of ranking based on how far you've gotten into the catalog of techniques wouldn't work.


I think your guys are right about wrestling and boxing being problematic to add a belt system to... and that there really would appear to be no benefit. 

From my (admittedly limited) Wing Chun experience, it doesn't need belts... but they in no way seem incompatible. 

The WT school I went to had no ranks... but students were divided along which form they were learning.

- Twice a year, they would accept a new group to begin learning 1st form (Siu Lim Tao). This seems like an obvious 'White Belt'.

- Should you stick it out for a year or so (I moved away and couldn't keep going) they'd start teaching 2nd Form (call that Blue belt).

Then there was 3rd Form and the dummy form. (Purple and Brown belts?)

After learning them all and being judged proficient, that's an easy parallel to black belt... and like BJJ, there (to my knowledge) isn't any formalized curriculum after that. Lineage and time in rank form the basis of higher Dan ranks.

Again. No arts really *Need* belts; but all in all, the WT curriculum doesn't seem so incompatible to me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> I think your guys are right about wrestling and boxing being problematic to add a belt system to... and that there really would appear to be no benefit.
> 
> From my (admittedly limited) Wing Chun experience, it doesn't need belts... but they in no way seem incompatible.
> 
> ...


This is kind of what I was thinking. The very little I know of WC is that there are multiple forms. Ranks could simply align with those - every new form = new rank. I don't know that it'd add anything useful, nor that it'd detract in any meaningful way.


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## APL76 (Jul 23, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> I think your guys are right about wrestling and boxing being problematic to add a belt system to... and that there really would appear to be no benefit.
> 
> From my (admittedly limited) Wing Chun experience, it doesn't need belts... but they in no way seem incompatible.
> 
> ...


That actually seems similar to how we do it. 4 levels represented by a coloured sash, 3 of those 4 levels divided into 4 sub levels. Each of the 3 levels corresponds roughly to 2 of the 6 forms. 1= Sui Lum Tao and Chum Kue, 2= Bui Ji and Wooden Dummy, 3= Pole and Knives 4= You have learned the forms and are now making the system your own. 

When I teach people the material only conforms loosely to that though and follows more when I figure when they are ready for new stuff. The grading system is really just for everyone to keep general track of what we are doing. 

Laughing at wing chun done with a grading system and sashes/belts I think is just a bit of martial arts hipsterism. After all, go back before the 50s/60s and wing chun was never taught in schools open to the public,  then Yip Man started teaching it like that. But the idea of a wing chun school never seems to bother these people, just a piece of cloth hanging around someone's waist. If people are too "real" for that, so be it.


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## Callen (Jul 24, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This is kind of what I was thinking. The very little I know of WC is that there are multiple forms. Ranks could simply align with those - every new form = new rank. I don't know that it'd add anything useful, nor that it'd detract in any meaningful way.





APL76 said:


> Laughing at wing chun done with a grading system and sashes/belts I think is just a bit of martial arts hipsterism. After all, go back before the 50s/60s and wing chun was never taught in schools open to the public, then Yip Man started teaching it like that. But the idea of a wing chun school never seems to bother these people, just a piece of cloth hanging around someone's waist. If people are too "real" for that, so be it.



Good points all around. 

In my opinion, this is much more than a flippant political or social debate. There are a lot of factors that can help shape the direction of how we understand why some peeps don’t include the belt system in Wing Chun. 

Thinking that refusing the belt system in Wing Chun is a “hipsterism” way of passing judgment, is a very limited way of looking at the issue. There are much larger aspects to take into consideration, such as the more practical and obvious reasons why certain lineages do not use the belt system.

Wing Chun is one of the most popular Chinese Martial Arts in the world, and contrary to how it feels to us individually, the USA is not the epicenter of Wing Chun. Given that, we must accept the simple fact that there are a lot of lineages that teach differently, using very different curricula (curriculums). 

Applying a belt rank to align with the forms is a good solution for some, but not all lineages teach that way. Hong Kong and mainland China have a TON of variations in curriculum (Yip Man lineage included), many of which are taught in the USA and other countries. Wing Chun practitioners and Martial Artists that are unassociated with those lineages may not even be aware of how those particular curriculum(s) function, and that can change the narrative.

Some lineages teach all of the forms first, before any drills. Using this method, a practitioner must first understand the overall goals of the system, the purpose of each of the shapes, and how they translate back to the concepts and principles of the system as a constant whole. They then move forward onto developing those concepts and revolving attributes into skills with training partners. In this curriculum, forms are not the focus of progression and belt ranking in accordance to the forms would be counterproductive. This is just one example of a curriculum variation, there are many more... Simply put, the Wing Chun curriculum is not standardized.

Typically, a Wing Chun curriculum that supports the belt/ranking system will be different than the curriculum used by lineages with no belt system. Whether the belt system is good or bad in Wing Chun, depends on the overall experience, and the practitioners’ ability to implement the concepts and principles of the system effectively.

The belt system might work for some Wing Chun lineages… but not all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2021)

I think the problem is where did the WC ranking system come from.

I can give my students a black belt in Chinese wrestling because it has ranking system and I had earned my black belt step by step. I can't give my long fist students a black belt because I don't even have black belt in long fist system myself.

If you are a WC teacher, you tell your students that you gave yourself a black belt, how much value does your black belt have?

If your WC teacher doesn't have black belt, how can he give you a black belt?


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## MadMartigan (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your WC teacher doesn't have black belt, how can he give you a black belt?


A bit of a side topic, but still related I think. 

By that logic, how did Kano, Jigoro get a belt... or have authority to assign belts to others? Or Funakoshi after him when introducing them to Shotokan?

It's a chicken/egg problem. At some point, it was not... until it was. We accept those versions without thought because we tend to venerate the old masters... but god forbid someone try to do what they did today.

Please remember. I actually liked that my WC school didn't use belts. As said, there are tones of reasons not to use them. I just don't like it when those who do choose to use them because it has utility for them are spoken of a second class martial arts practitioners.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> It's a chicken/egg problem.


I think if there is a WC Association, the WC Association gives black belt to an WC instructor, everything will be easier after that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think the problem is where did the WC ranking system come from.
> 
> I can give my students a black belt in Chinese wrestling because it has ranking system and I had earned my black belt step by step. I can't give my long fist students a black belt because I don't even have black belt in long fist system myself.
> 
> ...


You're not "giving" yourself anything. You are adopting a ranking system to be used within your school. A ranking system that reflects (presumably) the level of knowledge a given student has reached. 
After all, the belt ranking system wasn't used at all, until Kano implemented it for his Judo students. And I really don't think you mean to say that Kanos black belt, and that of every belt holder in every system that adopted belt ranks are without value, simply because the belt system wasn't in place the very day the system was organized.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 24, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> By that logic, how did Kano, Jigoro get a belt... or have authority to assign belts to others? Or Funakoshi after him when introducing them to Shotokan?


Funakoshi gave out the first black belts in 1924, but I doubt very much it was a unilateral act on his part.  Japanese custom is to do things by mutual agreement, so I suspect there was some sort of "governing" board of TMA masters (and/or the Dept. of Physical Education of the public school system) that OK'd the adoption of black belts in karate, and gave him the authority to grant them.

(There was an Okinawan MA governing organization called the _Butoku Kai _prior to WWII, and afterwards other organizations were formed. This was a very fluid and dynamic time in karate history and, while I have some knowledge, I am not an "expert" authority on this subject, so am open to corrections or further details.)

This is my understanding of how the various _dans_ and teaching titles in karate were awarded for the next couple of decades, until each of the newly evolved styles took this function over.  I don't know the earlier history of Judo's Kano Sensei, who devised the belt system - the process may have been similar, or not.


----------



## Callen (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think if there is a WC Association, the WC Association gives black belt to an WC instructor, everything will be easier after that.



Do you mean for each lineage?

There’s no real way to create a single “Wing Chun Association” or one unified curriculum. There are simply too many lineages and different training methods to do that, not to mention no real way to name a single successor to the entire Wing Chun system. I can think of at least 25 different lineages. Some of the Tang lineage and Gulao Wing Chun curriculum for example, use a completely different set of forms than Yip Man lineages.

Now if you're talking an association for each lineage, that is possible. Each lineage has the ability to organize their own hierarchy, ranking, and methods of completing the system. That's currently how it is being done.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2021)

Callen said:


> Thinking that refusing the belt system in Wing Chun is a “hipsterism” way of passing judgment, is a very limited way of looking at the issue. There are much larger aspects to take into consideration, such as the more practical and obvious reasons why certain lineages do not use the belt system.


Just clarifying, I don't think he was saying it was hipsterism to refuse a belt system, but to mock it. I think using or not using a rank system is mostly just a matter of preference.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think the problem is where did the WC ranking system come from.
> 
> I can give my students a black belt in Chinese wrestling because it has ranking system and I had earned my black belt step by step. I can't give my long fist students a black belt because I don't even have black belt in long fist system myself.
> 
> ...


Where is it written that only someone who received a BB can give one? If that were the case, there could never be any in any art, because it has to start somewhere. It's just a rank. At any point, someone can decide they find those useful and can create a ranking system. They can either place themselves at the top rank (since they are the head of that system, and they determine that is what that rank signifies), or use no rank, at all. Or whatever else they designate as appropriate within the ranking system they develop.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 26, 2021)

Im iffy on having overt or proper rankings sort of neutral.  

But if i ever ran anywhere i would probbly use patches (if anything), and the belt colour be free barring staff colours.    Or maybe something, if you get all the patches you get this belt colour.    Kind of like the license system just expressed with soemthing, say i teach you all the punching in the system, you get a patch to say you know it etc etc etc.  when you get all you get a combi patch/belt colour.

If any of you mentiosn boy scouts, the army did it first.    Your awards would be given to you and worn on your uniorm, i dont know that system jsut sounds better to me, and gives incentive to keep GI's more.  (which i would keep as default training wear)    It also has the ebenfit of, i know exactly what you are compotent in, and could sub divided it into teaching ranks for each as well.

No1 dress Gi when? 

Edit: I dont know why i defualted to calling it "the [koryu] license system", its not strange or foreign, concept to westerners.    I dont think there is a word word explination for it in english though, thats odd.    Just think you do a test, if you pass you get a patch to shove on your uniform with or without grades.


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 26, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> My biggest concern is that I'm not sure I'm progressing.


If your ability to hit while not being hit is increasing...then I'd say you are progressing. 


Charlie B said:


> but I don't think I necessarily understand what I'm doing


This is concerning. After all your years of training...you should AT LEAST be able to deconstruct what you are doing, explain it logically, be able to trace things back to principles, combat theories, forms, kuen kuit, etc etc. 


Charlie B said:


> and doubt I could use it in a real confrontation.


Ouch. Not good. Sounds like you need some serious high pressure testing to gain some confidence (or lose it) in the things your Sifu has you doing...


Charlie B said:


> We do very little contact training


Again, this is NOT normal. I'd say look for a new school...or at least find some training partners who want to bang out some tough training sessions. 


My comments above are based on my upbringing in WC. There were no belts. IME, some of the best, most hardcore and applicable wing chun is passed down in backyards, basements, garages. 

Good luck on your journey! Keep us posted on what you decide!


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## APL76 (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Just clarifying, I don't think he was saying it was hipsterism to refuse a belt system, but to mock it. I think using or not using a rank system is mostly just a matter of preference.


Yeah exactly. I wasn't saying its hipserism to not want to use a belt system. After all, when I learn Yuen Kay San wing chun privately from my Sifu we don't have a belt system, or grading system for that matter, we just learn it as he teaches it. But in his class when he had it, and in mine, we use sashes and grades.

What I was getting at is this attitude that some people have when they see a system that uses belts they feel the need to act condescendingly and insinuate that somehow the school must be a mcdojo teaching some fake or half baked wing chun, while then noting that they don't use belts and that they are somehow more authentic for that. 

Its funny but belts seem to mean the most to the people who insist that they don't use them.


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## Callen (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Just clarifying, I don't think he was saying it was hipsterism to refuse a belt system, but to mock it. I think using or not using a rank system is mostly just a matter of preference.


Thank you, @gpseymour! I read that completely wrong. Forgive my unnecessarily long-winded dissertation/rant on the belt system and the various curricula in Wing Chun


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> They can either place themselves at the top rank (since they are the head of that system, and they determine that is what that rank signifies),


Many years ago I sparred with a guy who said that he had 9th degree golden belt. That guy was 26 years old. One day someone called me on the phone and told me that he has 4 different black belt from 4 different systems. Next day I met him. He was only 16 years old.

IMO, the term "personal freedom" can be over used sometime.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago I sparred with a guy who said that he had 9th degree golden belt. That guy was 26 years old. One day someone called me on the phone and told me that he has 4 different black belt from 4 different systems. Next day I met him. He was only 16 years old.
> 
> IMO, the term "personal freedom" can be over used sometime.


Neither of those ranks means anything to me until I know what they mean. What I take from that pair is that one guy has a rank I've never heard of, and which seems to be late in a system that gives ranks very quickly. And the other probably trained as a child, in groups that give kids' BB.

If you changed the ages by a couple of decades, I still wouldn't know much about them. Rank really doesn't tell much unless you have the context.

So, if the first guy had a 1st degree BB, what would change?

And I still don't know if either of those were self-assigned ranks. If not, I'm not sure how they pertain to this part of the thread.


----------



## MadMartigan (Jul 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago I sparred with a guy who said that he had 9th degree golden belt. That guy was 26 years old.



Did he look like a younger version of  this guy? 😆


----------



## Steve (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Neither of those ranks means anything to me until I know what they mean. What I take from that pair is that one guy has a rank I've never heard of, and which seems to be late in a system that gives ranks very quickly. And the other probably trained as a child, in groups that give kids' BB.
> 
> If you changed the ages by a couple of decades, I still wouldn't know much about them. Rank really doesn't tell much unless you have the context.
> 
> ...


I have a 2nd degree black belt in bavarian jiu jitsu.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And I still don't know if either of those were self-assigned ranks. If not, I'm not sure how they pertain to this part of the thread.


If I tell you that I have black belt in 10 different CMA systems, but none of those CMA systems use ranking system. What kind of confidence will you have on me?

One of my students wanted me to give him a black belt in my long fist system. I told him that I can only give him a "long fist teacher certification".


----------



## Buka (Jul 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> I have a 2nd degree black belt in bavarian jiu jitsu.


I have a fan belt in Honda Gar Gung Ho.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Neither of those ranks means anything to me until I know what they mean.


If I tell you that my long fist system black belt requirement are:

1st degree BB - you have to finish the long fist *physical training*.
2nd degree BB - you have to finish the long fist *mental training*.
3rd degree BB - you have to finish the long fist *spiritual training*.

Do you understand what the long fist BB requirement is?

The issue about the ranking system is, people will ask you

- Who is your teacher?
- Who is your teacher's teacher?
- ...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I tell you that I have black belt in 10 different CMA systems, but none of those CMA systems use ranking system. What kind of confidence will you have on me?
> 
> One of my students wanted me to give him a black belt in my long fist system. I told him that I can only give him a "long fist teacher certification".


If someone tells me they have a belt in a system that doesn't typically use belts, it tells me really nothing about them or their training. If anyone tells me they have 10 BB, it doesn't matter whether those systems typically use belts or not, I'm immediately suspicious.

Look at the reverse - does someone suddenly gain credibility if I _stop_ using belt ranks (something I considered when putting together my curriculum)? If not, why should they suddenly lose crediblity if someone _starts_ using them?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I tell you that my long fist system black belt requirement are:
> 
> 1st degree BB - you have to finish the long fist *physical training*.
> 2nd degree BB - you have to finish the long fist *mental training*.
> ...


No. And in most cases, knowing the teachers' names doesn't tell me anything more.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Look at the reverse - does someone suddenly gain credibility if I _stop_ using belt ranks (something I considered when putting together my curriculum)? If not, why should they suddenly lose crediblity if someone _starts_ using them?


You have logic issue here.

If you 

- have, you can say you don't have. 
- don't have, you can't say you have.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> No. And in most cases, knowing the teachers' names doesn't tell me anything more.


There is different between someone who graduated from MIT than someone who graduated from Liberty Hill Community College.


----------



## APL76 (Jul 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> I have a 2nd degree black belt in bavarian jiu jitsu.


Pfffftttt. you can keep your Bavarian Jiu Jitsu; I got a 10 degree blackbelt in Bavarian Cheesecake (the more cheesecake I eat the more degrees I need to ad to my belt).


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## Poppity (Jul 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is different between someone who graduated from MIT than someone who graduated from Liberty Hill Community College.


Errr..... Isn't this counter to your argument. Both of these institutions have a certification process to ensure quality of teaching and understanding of students.

Surely this shows the benefit of a widely utilised certification system (like belts) for assesment of teaching otherwise they couldn't compare.

Isn't just naming a teacher more like going for an engineering job and saying "I have no qualifications but old man Jenkins taught me geometry, and only he knows the true secret of maths, I know this because he told me... Also I can't show you my working out notes cause it's a secret."


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

I knew this would happen, i mis took the post. 

As far as i can tell, many orginisations belt lock content.  that meanig you need to be of X belt to do this course.      There is then going to be a belt where you get the most access other than say black belt.   So if your current belt gives you all the access to all the courses etc you are intrested in and want, and you dont want to persue it further, i cant see any reason to persue it further unless they are going to limit your education.   (which is a scummy thing to do in my eyes, and theyd be coercing you into grading at that point)

So fundmenetally, if you have all the access you could want, and no longer care to persue grades, dont worry about it.   If belts are meaningless, then it should be no issue.  Dont be coerced into doing something you dont really want to and dont be peer pressured into it, if they start to do that, try and persue a diffrent school in the same style.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have logic issue here.
> 
> If you
> 
> ...


If I start a new art and decide the highest rank is a chartreuse belt, and that belt designates the current head of the system, then by definition that's my rank. What does it matter? Who would be qualified to hand out that rank?

And once I create that rank, I do, actually, have it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is different between someone who graduated from MIT than someone who graduated from Liberty Hill Community College.


Somewhat. But not entirely. And knowing an instructor's name - unless I'm quite familiar with the instructor and the quality of their students - doesn't tell me whether they are MIT or Liberty Hill.

I've met some folks who are bad at what they do with very good degrees. And I've met some who are very good at what they do with no degree or a degree from a relatively unknown school. The degree gives me a hint, but only that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

APL76 said:


> Pfffftttt. you can keep your Bavarian Jiu Jitsu; I got a 10 degree blackbelt in Bavarian Cheesecake (the more cheesecake I eat the more degrees I need to ad to my belt).


So, adding a stripe is just adding an extension?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> I knew this would happen, i mis took the post.
> 
> As far as i can tell, many orginisations belt lock content.  that meanig you need to be of X belt to do this course.      There is then going to be a belt where you get the most access other than say black belt.   So if your current belt gives you all the access to all the courses etc you are intrested in and want, and you dont want to persue it further, i cant see any reason to persue it further unless they are going to limit your education.   (which is a scummy thing to do in my eyes, and theyd be coercing you into grading at that point)
> 
> So fundmenetally, if you have all the access you could want, and no longer care to persue grades, dont worry about it.   If belts are meaningless, then it should be no issue.  Dont be coerced into doing something you dont really want to and dont be peer pressured into it, if they start to do that, try and persue a diffrent school in the same style.


My experience has been that it's not the way you represent it here. Seminars and classes are rank-limited so that those who are ready for that content (likely to be able to keep up, have established the proper fundamentals, and can safely participate) can attend. Your post seems to suggest that it's like game content that is unlocked by the rank, when it's the ability that should be unlocking the rank, and that same ability is required for that additional content. 

So when belts are simply a measure of progress, they also become a convenient way to determine who is "ready" for some content. And in that same usage, they're a simple progression - as you get better, the rank goes up (usually with some testing).


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My experience has been that it's not the way you represent it here. Seminars and classes are rank-limited so that those who are ready for that content (likely to be able to keep up, have established the proper fundamentals, and can safely participate) can attend. Your post seems to suggest that it's like game content that is unlocked by the rank, when it's the ability that should be unlocking the rank, and that same ability is required for that additional content.
> 
> So when belts are simply a measure of progress, they also become a convenient way to determine who is "ready" for some content. And in that same usage, they're a simple progression - as you get better, the rank goes up (usually with some testing).




Interpritational diffrence.    they say "you do not have to grade" but thats just false if you want the full expereince, i dont know how many would hand out honary passes to no belts or permmenet white belts, but that seems to be the exeption not rule. 

(the rule is most list grading as optional)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> Interpritational diffrence.    they say "you do not have to grade" but thats just false if you want the full expereince, i dont know how many would hand out honary passes to no belts or permmenet white belts, but that seems to be the exeption not rule.
> 
> (the rule is most list grading as optional)


Again, you're looking at it as if the belt was something you had to specifically do. It's part of the curriculum. If you're doing the whole curriculum, then the belts should mostly be a result of that study. It's like going to school and going through the different grade levels - if you do the work and meet a minimum standard, you move to the next grade, and much of the content is grouped by grade.


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## crshieh (Jul 27, 2021)

As an instructor, I hate belts.  But belts help motivate some, and help track progress for some.  But for me, the belt requirements are really the absolute minimum I expect from my students.  And some students are okay with the minimum.  But if you really really really want it, you should probably disregard the belt and focus on what YOU want to progress in, and work with your instructor to get there.  What do YOU want out of your training.  How can you get there.  Can your instructor/school help you get there.


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## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

One thing that we've sort of skirted around are clear, objective standards.  Belts are a reflection of that, but there are others.  A belt ranking system isn't the only way to do this, but it's a pretty good one, whether to organize students by skill level for competition or not.

Where places have a belt system, but students are unclear about what they're able to do at each level... that's a concern.  And the belts aren't the problem.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, adding a stripe is just adding an extension?


It involves taking your trousers to the tailor and having them let out.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Again, you're looking at it as if the belt was something you had to specifically do. It's part of the curriculum. If you're doing the whole curriculum, then the belts should mostly be a result of that study. It's like going to school and going through the different grade levels - if you do the work and meet a minimum standard, you move to the next grade, and much of the content is grouped by grade.



Schools are a bad example, its not a opt in system, and you pass by default.   You dont pay per grade in school. 

Belt how ever are said are a opt in system, but they deny your access to the orginisation unless you opt in.    If you want full access to a org, you need to do what is held as a opt in or said to be one, unless the exeption si made where they give permenet white belts exemptions or honoary belts.  (which is again, the exeption as far as i can see)


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## wolfeyes2323 (Jul 27, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


No do not leave, stay, PASS THE TEST,
then consider leaving.
Do not teach your self its ok to 
quit, all the confusion that happened 
to you at the test could happen in 
a real confrontation,  face it, overcome it,
evaluate, move forward.
I am 65+ , learning to ride horses,
I've been thrown,  hit the ground hard,
My riding instructor a young skinny women,
came over , asked "are you OK ?  What happened ?"
by the time I answered she was holding the 
reins of the horse, she said "ok, mount, back to it".
The other riders I see at the barn, (mostly young 
women and girls) said "oh yeah, after about ten 
times you'll be a decent rider".


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> Schools are a bad example, its not a opt in system, and you pass by default.   You dont pay per grade in school.


Schools are an opt-in system once you reach a certain grade. You also don't pass by default (at least in the states, I'd be alarmed if anywhere you just auto-passed all your classes). And depending on the situation you may have to pay per grade.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> to organize students by skill level for competition or not.


To me the belt system can force students to compete in tournament. In ACSCA if one doesn't compete, the 1st degree BB is the best that he can get. He can't pass the 2nd degree BB without tournament record.

In ACSCA, a student has to meet 2 requirements:

- He will compete in tournament.
- He will teach his MA skill to others in the future.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Schools are an opt-in system once you reach a certain grade. You also don't pass by default (at least in the states, I'd be alarmed if anywhere you just auto-passed all your classes). And depending on the situation you may have to pay per grade.


This is still a poor example, not much can be compared and the dynamic is diffrent. 

You dont get grades beyond free education which is normally compulsary and not beyond secondary school/college (my dialect), you have to be underperfoming by a LARGE margin to be held back, and i think a list of criteria and partial parent consent needs to be had to do it, i have only seen it once. 

You dont get a qulification after each grade, you get one after the secondary school block, when you leave that you sit for actual qulifications, so if you dont pass them you dont get a qulification.    the grade markers up until that point and assesment is internal assesment to watch for progress and screen for disabilities etc.

The better example would be if they forced you to go, made you pay for it, and kept failing you to keep you at L1, and you needed to get to L5 to be allowed to leave.        Its just not optional, and they lie if they say it is, unless they will recognise a long standing white belt and give them a pass, which is a exeption not rule as far as i can tell. 

Only othet thing that comes to mind that might be better is cadets, they dont tell you its optional to persue patches etc, its only optional in the sense of, you choose the ones you want to persue based on intrests.   If you want to do shooting, you NEED to go the premilary shooting education and thus earn the relivent patches.    There is also some degree of getting a legit qulification through it as well.  (you can get a actual first aid qual through it, so the patch is the cadet marker for you have done it to this level, you get a cert to say you have done it)   but then its ran as a charity so pretty discounted rates.

The dynamic is diffrent in school to a private  hobby like martial arts, you are made to go, hell the dyanmics diffrent for cadets as well.   I cant think of anything that can be 1:1.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> This is still a poor example, not much can be compared and the dynamic is diffrent.


I agree it's a poor example, but that's mostly because school systems are so different cross-state and cross-countries. 


Rat said:


> You dont get grades beyond free education which is normally compulsary and not beyond secondary school/college (my dialect), you have to be underperfoming by a LARGE margin to be held back, and i think a list of criteria and partial parent consent needs to be had to do it, i have only seen it once.


Not true in the area that gpseymour lives (I believe he's the one who made the comparison, so going by his location). Education is not mandated after 16 years old where he lives. You also only have to fail to be held back-some schools will try to force you to pass to help their statistics, but IME that's only true in middle class and up schools in the US at least. 


Rat said:


> You dont get a qulification after each grade, you get one after the secondary school block, when you leave that you sit for actual qulifications, so if you dont pass them you dont get a qulification.    the grade markers up until that point and assesment is internal assesment to watch for progress and screen for disabilities etc.


Not sure what you're referring to as a qualification, block or assessment. But where I live, we had external tests determined by a large standardized body that was the same across the state, in December and then again in June. If you fail the first one, that's a sign that you may not graduate and need to start putting in extra work, and then if you fail the June one, that was very likely to result in you not passing and needing to redo the class. Pretty similar to having a large outside body determining testing material, and failing/passing it playing a large part in determining if you go to the next belt. 


Rat said:


> The better example would be if they forced you to go, made you pay for it, and kept failing you to keep you at L1, and you needed to get to L5 to be allowed to leave.        Its just not optional, and they lie if they say it is, unless they will recognise a long standing white belt and give them a pass, which is a exeption not rule as far as i can tell.


I've been to a (MA) school that had belts but did not force me to rank/test. Eventually, they just gave me higher belts when they realized I really wasn't going to pay for the test because I didn't care, since it was misleading to the other students. Also, what (MA) school is not letting you leave??


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> Schools are a bad example, its not a opt in system, and you pass by default.   You dont pay per grade in school.
> 
> Belt how ever are said are a opt in system, but they deny your access to the orginisation unless you opt in.    If you want full access to a org, you need to do what is held as a opt in or said to be one, unless the exeption si made where they give permenet white belts exemptions or honoary belts.  (which is again, the exeption as far as i can see)


I've never paid per grade in MA, either. As for opt-in, if that's going to make this impossible for you to use as an analogy, let's use course levels in college/university. That's all opt-in, and content is locked behind level progression.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

wolfeyes2323 said:


> No do not leave, stay, PASS THE TEST,
> then consider leaving.
> Do not teach your self its ok to
> quit, all the confusion that happened
> ...


If leaving is the right decision, it's the right decision with or without going for that test.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Rat said:


> This is still a poor example, not much can be compared and the dynamic is diffrent.
> 
> You dont get grades beyond free education which is normally compulsary and not beyond secondary school/college (my dialect), you have to be underperfoming by a LARGE margin to be held back, and i think a list of criteria and partial parent consent needs to be had to do it, i have only seen it once.
> 
> ...


You're actually making my point for me in part of this. If belt tests are a minimum standard, then they are equivalent to what it takes to pass a grade in school.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're actually making my point for me in part of this. If belt tests are a minimum standard, then they are equivalent to what it takes to pass a grade in school.


I dont cosnider them comprable.      Belts, the rule is fundementally  "optional", you are semi strong armed into doing them if you want to experience the thing proper.     and the rule seems to be you pay for gradings as well.




Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've been to a (MA) school that had belts but did not force me to rank/test. Eventually, they just gave me higher belts when they realized I really wasn't going to pay for the test because I didn't care, since it was misleading to the other students. Also, what (MA) school is not letting you leave??


How long was edvetnually?   Plus id consider that a exeption.





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not sure what you're referring to as a qualification, block or assessment. But where I live, we had external tests determined by a large standardized body that was the same across the state, in December and then again in June. If you fail the first one, that's a sign that you may not graduate and need to start putting in extra work, and then if you fail the June one, that was very likely to result in you not passing and needing to redo the class. Pretty similar to having a large outside body determining testing material, and failing/passing it playing a large part in determining if you go to the next belt.


In short, Schooling up until GCSE is not for a actual qulifiction, the last 2 years of secondary school are for a actual qulification.   All assesments etc up until that point (unless other wise specified) are general education and for internal assesmsent and review.   you dont "fail" a year.    Your average is sub par enough that the adminstration decides you might be better suited repeating to catch up.

the only external tests done would be for a actual qulification. not as previously stated internal review.




Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I agree it's a poor example, but that's mostly because school systems are so different cross-state and cross-countries.


Just doesnt seem comprable.


My point is still, you show up to say TKD, you do your trial lesson, you think its good. they say "belts are optional", you dont care to grade.   You then turn up get into it, and realise that a no belt cant do anything, and you have to hope that they give you a honary belt.   in a similar vein to "patterns are optional", well you need to do patterns to get a belt, you need to get a belt to get full access to the martial art.     These arent qulification barriers these are, they lied to you, and are semi coering you into persuing something you dont want to do by locking you out. 

Now you dont have to go there, true, but thats besides the point, the norm is to state those two things, yet they in reality arent true.  It is also the norm to default shove "self defence" on every martial art/combat sport, when that just isnt true.  (been well established by now)
You sort of have to go there, if A its the only place you can get to and B you feel the need to learn a martial art. 

I am excluding all criminality here, like actually forcing you, being fully fradulent etc etc etc.

The exeptions to the rule are probbly one school orginisations, where the school runs the courses, but then to access say a ITF course, you will need a black belt or something they recognise.              Like i would 100% not be able to fully access TKD unless i did patterns, despite what they say, or claim on entry in marketing.    

On another note i think i have ranted about this before and i got told "i dont know TKD", while also getting told "i dont have to grade" and "i need to grade to access it all (thus to "know" it").   Or something to that effect, very clearly, many completely contradictory statements and messages.   Correction, i have ranted about this before, or poiinted it out because of those statements.    Then it just devolves into "its not "proper" Karate unless you do a 1,800 degreee kick, off of Mount Fuji in the middle of winter through a burning hoop on a wenday at 2AM"

Probbly a communication issue for what we mean here, im not seeing the comparision. 

Addednum: For full disclosure i have witnessed an exeption, in that somone picked up i could do the 4D's so instead of wasting time on that they did the next pattern with me for the rest of the lesson, but thats one instance, does seem to be the exeption and they forgot about it next time.     Hell you dont technically have to wear a dobok until yellow belt/tag anyway.  Slightly amusing you could not be recognised for knowing XYZ pattern despite being able to do the just because you didnt grade somewhere.


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## MadMartigan (Jul 28, 2021)

Wow. Now I feel that my experiences are way outside the norm. 


Rat said:


> All assesments etc up until that point (unless other wise specified) are general education and for internal assesmsent and review. you dont "fail" a year.


As a glorified homeschool kid, our distance education material was broken up into 12 modules in each subject for each grade. At the end of every module in every subject I had to write a closed book test on that module. A minimum pass was 80% and you didn't move on until you passed (no matter how long it took). We didn't repeat grades... they just sometimes took more than a year to finish (grade 9 algebra took me 2 years... but I eventually got it).

Maybe because of this, the whole testing thing just doesn't seem like such a problem. 


Rat said:


> you show up to say TKD, you do your trial lesson, you think its good. they say "belts are optional", you dont care to grade.


Again, where are these schools? 

At my TKD school we offer a product. A structured curriculum that goes step by step from white through black belt. We're upfront from the beginning that testing between belt levels is part of what we do.

The yellow belts works drills for basic sparring combinations while the blue or red belts do more advanced kicking drills etc. Higher belt curriculum is designed to build on the lessons from previous levels. There are legitimate reasons for this, (safety being primary). 

Just like it's probably a bad idea to teach rubber guard and the twister to a brand new BJJ student... a jumping spinning kick is just going to injure an inexperienced kicker if they haven't learned correct body alignment and trained their muscles for balistic movements. 

I have no doubt they exist as you say... but I've never seen a school (that uses a belt system) where they say that following the curriculum as layed out is optional. Testing to achieve the next level is part of the experience we provide. No one takes every test... only the ones they are ready and sign up for. If that takes 2 months or 2 years to go between belts it doesn't matter. Everyone's pace is their own.

A visitor is a separate issue; but if someone is joining to be a student... then they're joining to learn things the way we teach them. Someone who refused to test, but kept showing up for class (of course I've never seen it happen) would likely get bored of the same kata, basic drills, and line work eventually. 

If people come wanting to dictate how they will be taught... well 'don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya'.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 28, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> Again, where are these schools?
> 
> At my TKD school we offer a product. A structured curriculum that goes step by step from white through black belt. We're upfront from the beginning that testing between belt levels is part of what we do.
> 
> ...


I feel its heavily implied for the ones i have experienced.  Granted i have congeled some other things in there, Lau Gar for example has belt locks for courses, but i dont know how they word it personally. (and the mc dojo probbly does this by default anyway, as its to milk money out of you, well so are other martial arts orgs but another day)

the point is not "what belts exist for" its, you need X belt to do X course, they have otherwise made it sound like you can get fully access without grading.

I feel that they do/the blur the line and heavily imply it if not say that its optional a bit too much.  this is also congealed with what i wrote above about the contradictory statement rant.

"A visitor is a separate issue; but if someone is joining to be a student... then they're joining to learn things the way we teach them. Someone who refused to test, but kept showing up for class (of course I've never seen it happen) would likely get bored of the same kata, basic drills, and line work eventually."

This is my point, they are strong armed INTO doing it.  Unless you award them a honary belt their belt rank says "they can only do these forms"   That would be strong arming to me, you join dont care much for belts, and then you get locked because of it. (then somone moans at you because you disliek TKD because of this, because apparntly its not a apt reason to dislike it)

My example would be one, i can do the 4d's good enough, so its a bland pointless pattern, i belive the only reason i got flagged that one time was because only 3 people turned up. (very much an exeption)   i have also messaged some other people and they say they would or consider going as far to teach the next belt on request outside of a actual grading.   ie if i wanted to learn something in yellow tag/belt, they would consider it if i was a white belt, and before i graded for the tag.  Obviously more exeptions.

but i doubt they would without giving a honary belt to the person, teach them more than 1-2 ranks above themselves,and then its meaningless as they wont be able to access the orginisations courses etc if the school is part of a greater network, and if only one teacher has that agreement with you, the others may default you back.     Pending on org as well, grading works diffrent, i know a krav maga orginisation lets the individual school grade some ranks, then the organisation itself has to grade the others. 

an honary rank would be, you only offically have a yellow belt, but work and are treated as a red belt in your orginisation.  a large part of my issue is the fact some make it out as "optional" or imply it honestly.

Addendum:  If i join a sports TKD school to do the sport of it or to spar and patterns arent important[to me], patterns tend to be a large part of all TKD schools, sparring tends to take a lesser part, so if i dont want to grade, im going to get bored paying the person to do the same 4 things every day for questionable reasons.  Where as in places no belts exist or no clear markers its more fluid.  If you compare the two, the unranked one is a better fit for the state school comparision and anaology, the ranked one is not as it doesnt act the same.

there is a very distinct diffrence, you sadly cant have the pros of belts without cons and vice versa.

Last point:  you provide the service of providing what ever martial art, combat sport etc you claim to do.     that also requires honesty about what it is, what its scope and purpose is and how your orginsiation operates.  the person also pays you to learn in part what they want/can do/are looking for, if they cant kick its pointless to teach them kicking for example.         Its like if you paid a personal trainer, and they knew you couldnt do pushups, so decided to have you only do them for the full session isntead of building up your ability with easier exercises to a pushup.  (pet peeve) your going to stop paying them by the way.

Hell, i have heard of some japanese schools having some westerners sit aside to "test their patience" god i hope they didnt pay for that, i wouldnt pay for that. and its fully understandable not to or to remain there from that.   Tangents aside, hopefully that actually replied to something.

Addendum: I am pretty biased against TKD honestly and thats the only one i have experinced so keep that in note.   But i can articulate all of my exomplaints about it and they seem to hold water. (at least some in part)

Addendum 2:   This subject still continues to confuse and annoy me with the amount of contradictory statements in the overall community, i cant think of something as fractured as martial arts honestly.

Addendum 3: I wrote the orginal reply probbly without sufficent sleep to write it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 28, 2021)

Rat said:


> How long was edvetnually?   Plus id consider that a exeption.


About 6 months. Basically when they realized I really wasn't interested in the belts and wouldn't pay for the tests. They might be an exception, but it's the only school that I've tried that with and they didn't have any issues. How many schools have you actually tried that with, so we can compare?

One thing I will say is that this school was structured differently than, say, TKD. You can belt up, but the belt wasn't a prerequisite to any of the material. In a school like that, where you don't learn techniques until a set rank, I can't imagine them saying that belts are optional since they clearly are not from the getgo. 


Rat said:


> In short, Schooling up until GCSE is not for a actual qulifiction, the last 2 years of secondary school are for a actual qulification.   All assesments etc up until that point (unless other wise specified) are general education and for internal assesmsent and review.   you dont "fail" a year.    Your average is sub par enough that the adminstration decides you might be better suited repeating to catch up.
> 
> the only external tests done would be for a actual qulification. not as previously stated internal review.
> 
> ...


Again, not comparable with _your school system_. With other school systems, what you stated is not the case. There are external assessments, and if you fail those you can be left back. I went to school with quite a few people who were a year or two older than me because they got left back in like 3rd grade or something. They won't use the word fail, but that's essentially what's happening-you failed the tests and have to try again either over the summer or next year.


Rat said:


> My point is still, you show up to say TKD, you do your trial lesson, you think its good. they say "belts are optional", you dont care to grade.   You then turn up get into it, and realise that a no belt cant do anything, and you have to hope that they give you a honary belt.   in a similar vein to "patterns are optional", well you need to do patterns to get a belt, you need to get a belt to get full access to the martial art.     These arent qulification barriers these are, they lied to you, and are semi coering you into persuing something you dont want to do by locking you out.
> 
> Now you dont have to go there, true, but thats besides the point, the norm is to state those two things, yet they in reality arent true.  It is also the norm to default shove "self defence" on every martial art/combat sport, when that just isnt true.  (been well established by now)
> You sort of have to go there, if A its the only place you can get to and B you feel the need to learn a martial art.


I've yet to see a school that has said belts are optional when they are a necessary part of the curriculum. How many schools have you been to that have done both things? 


Rat said:


> I am excluding all criminality here, like actually forcing you, being fully fradulent etc etc etc.
> 
> The exeptions to the rule are probbly one school orginisations, where the school runs the courses, but then to access say a ITF course, you will need a black belt or something they recognise.              Like i would 100% not be able to fully access TKD unless i did patterns, despite what they say, or claim on entry in marketing.


Again, have you gone to a ITF school, told them you do not want to belt test, had them say something like "That's fine you can stay a white belt forever", when they knew that wasn't the case?  I have my doubts that that is how that conversation would normally go, especially since my experience differs from this on both ends.  I can believe that they neglected to mention it, but can't see most schools actively saying that you don't have to test at all, knowing that's not the case. But that's not a slight on belt systems, that's a slight on those schools falsely marketing their style.


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## Nobodaddy (Jul 28, 2021)

Charlie B said:


> I've been training with a Wing Chun group for the last 5 years. Once or twice per week. I've taken two gradings per year and I've always felt like the gradings were good motivation for learning i.e. when I knew there was a grading coming up I would practice.
> 
> I recently failed my second brown. Feeling pretty gutted however it's making me reflect on my progress over the last few years which I think is helpful.
> 
> ...


Tests or gradings that cannot be failed, or which resulted in no feedback, would be meaningless to me. No one in my Sifu's lineage used belts/sashes. A belt can be meaningless if there is no skill and understanding to back it up.

There are many ways to test you skills. My Sifu made Sanda (Chinese (kick)boxing/sparring) an optional part of the curriculum, for those who were serious about the art.

Basics, techniques and forms were always explained to us in class. We were encouraged to ask questions. We dissected things down to the minutest detail. My Sifu loved the expression of the art, and wanted to see it done properly. We drilled constantly, with multiple partners. We learned variations because no technique works in 100% of the time.

Wing Chun (and any art) is built from the basics/foundation up. Continual refinement of the basics is essential. Until I'd shown adequate understanding of Siu Lum Tao, I wasn't invited to move on to Chum Kiu. I also took what I learn from CK and applied it backwards to SLT. Same thing when learning Biu Jee, etc.

I hope this helps. My advice is that you move on and find another school.


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## Buka (Jul 28, 2021)

I held tests when people were ready to get promoted. But everybody was invited to the test even if they weren't up for testing. Because it was always one of the hardest workouts of the year. Hence, test nights were packed, high energy workouts. So much fun.

There was never a case where everyone passed. That's why they call it a test.

If you were testing and passed, you paid for your belt. Four bucks. Then more as the price of belts went up. I think the last I remember it was eight dollars and fifty cents.

If you made black belt your belt was free. Embroided with your name. They earned it, it was the least I could do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont cosnider them comprable. Belts, the rule is fundementally "optional", you are semi strong armed into doing them if you want to experience the thing proper. and the rule seems to be you pay for gradings as well.


How much have you trained in places where belts were used, that you're so convinced about how they work and how they feel to the students?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> How much have you trained in places where belts were used, that you're so convinced about how they work and how they feel to the students?


How they feel is subjective, you can be "convinced" to feel anything about anything.    the belts existance themselves arent in dispute the overlaying infrastructure and logic around them is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 28, 2021)

Rat said:


> How they feel is subjective, you can be "convinced" to feel anything about anything.    the belts existance themselves arent in dispute the overlaying infrastructure and logic around them is.


The assertions you're making like about being "strongarmed" are pretty much based on an emotional reaction to the belt system. You assert that the rank system puts barriers to training, but I've never seen that. Folks train until they're ready for the next rank, test, and move into that material. They'll already have picked up some of that material along the way, because they were there when someone else was working on it. The stark barriers you claim exist have never been part of my experience. What held people back from material was their ability.......which happened to be the same thing that held them back from the next rank at that time.

I've trained both with and without them, and find they have little impact on training for most folks. They're just there, part of the system.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 28, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The assertions you're making like about being "strongarmed" are pretty much based on an emotional reaction to the belt system. You assert that the rank system puts barriers to training, but I've never seen that. Folks train until they're ready for the next rank, test, and move into that material. They'll already have picked up some of that material along the way, because they were there when someone else was working on it. The stark barriers you claim exist have never been part of my experience. What held people back from material was their ability.......which happened to be the same thing that held them back from the next rank at that time.
> 
> I've trained both with and without them, and find they have little impact on training for most folks. They're just there, part of the system.


I dont recall making those statements, my fundemental pont is its stated as optional when it isnt.    As eleborated with my reply to mad, you wont get taught the next belts ranks until you grade as the rule, ergo strongarming due to boredom, you either grade or stop due to not learning anything else new.  (his point was (paraphrase), that you could become rank locked because of that thus get bored and leave or grade, i agreed and stated that was the closest example of what i was trying to relay)

Your statment on the rule being you "train until ready, test, then do it again" means the rule is that, any statement its "optional" is false and you wont get taught the next material until you grade as the rule. 

Any statment on belt compared to no belt was used to illistrate how no belt is a better example of compuslary education you get.    It has no real bearing on the actual argument, only disputational on a example/anaology used.    Or i should say hopes to flesh out said example to make more sense.     

I dont feel that there is as natural of a progress in a opt in belt system with formal gradings etc as compared to a no belt and non opt in system where you just show up, and nothing changes and they just slowly add things to what they teach you as they see you improve.       Example, you go to a boxing 1:1, the first lesson they teach you foot work, basic guards and strikes,  second they teach you basic defences, third they combine the two into combos etc.           As opposed to a belts say, you do 1, sit a test, do 2, sit a test etc.    (now i am aware of the realites and that mass produced training has altered how they do it, but thats not really for dispute)

As an expansion to the analogy point.   No idea how we got here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2021)

Rat said:


> I dont recall making those statements, my fundemental pont is its stated as optional when it isnt.    As eleborated with my reply to mad, you wont get taught the next belts ranks until you grade as the rule, ergo strongarming due to boredom, you either grade or stop due to not learning anything else new.  (his point was (paraphrase), that you could become rank locked because of that thus get bored and leave or grade, i agreed and stated that was the closest example of what i was trying to relay)
> 
> Your statment on the rule being you "train until ready, test, then do it again" means the rule is that, any statement its "optional" is false and you wont get taught the next material until you grade as the rule.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why you're focusing on whether it's optional. It absolutely is, as there are many schools that don't use it - a student can choose one of those. Within a school that uses rank, it's simply part of the system. If the rank/tests are used well, they are no barrier to content, as the evaluation is whether the student is ready for that content. There is a progression in learning, and some things need a foundation of other things.

I don't think the boxing comparison you're trying to make works. I'd look at BJJ belt ranking for a system like boxing. The rank would indicate comparative ability, and wouldn't necessarily be tied to any specific content (though some content might not fit rank beginners, so would likely show up for most students somewhere into the ranks).


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I agree it's a poor example, but that's mostly because school systems are so different cross-state and cross-countries.
> 
> Not true in the area that gpseymour lives (I believe he's the one who made the comparison, so going by his location). Education is not mandated after 16 years old where he lives. You also only have to fail to be held back-some schools will try to force you to pass to help their statistics, but IME that's only true in middle class and up schools in the US at least.
> 
> ...




In the UK school system you don't graduate, it's perfectly possible and many do leave school without any qualifications. You aren't stopped from leaving school if you fail your exams, not are you held back at any point, there's no repeating years. Once you reach official  school leaving age you can leave. 
College and university are two separate things here, you go to the latter for specific degree courses. Colleges usually offer different qualifications,  it's quite common to go from college to university. You can go to college with no qualifications but not university. Colleges offer the qualifications needed to go to uni as well as the practical   courses such as hairdressing, car mechanics etc.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 29, 2021)

Buka said:


> There was never a case where everyone passed. That's why they call it a test.


Did they at least get a "participation" belt?

My students' failure rate was about 1 out of 6 or 7, mostly for the lower belts (strong basics required right from the get-go to set expectations.)  Failure has its benefits - it prepares you for real life. It's a great education in and of itself.  Or, it could be. The instructor might have to help the student handle it as overcoming failure is a skill not all have.  (note - we did not have young kids in those days.)

Actually, I toyed with the idea of failing EVERY student for the brown belt test.....making it part of the test!  Brown belt was the "cocky" stage when they tended to strut around (males 16-25, which was the main age group back then) and a "fail" would be just the thing to bring them back to earth.  Just an idea, though.


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## Buka (Jul 29, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Did they at least get a "participation" belt?
> 
> My students' failure rate was about 1 out of 6 or 7, mostly for the lower belts (strong basics required right from the get-go to set expectations.)  Failure has its benefits - it prepares you for real life. It's a great education in and of itself.  Or, it could be. The instructor might have to help the student handle it as overcoming failure is a skill not all have.  (note - we did not have young kids in those days.)
> 
> Actually, I toyed with the idea of failing EVERY student for the brown belt test.....making it part of the test!  Brown belt was the "cocky" stage when they tended to strut around (males 16-25, which was the main age group back then) and a "fail" would be just the thing to bring them back to earth.  Just an idea, though.


Geez, I liked this.

Our belts were white, yellow, orange, blue, purple, green, brown and black. But green belt was what we made the first "real" belt. I used to joke that if I ran into you thirty years from now -"if you made green belt, I might remember your name."

Green belt was when you started to mentor lower belts, and you did so with only positive influence. And you helped them with sparring, gently. It was also the belt where you, yourself, were mentored by the brown belts. And kept in check. Because green belts were nuts. 

If you were a green belt in our school, you treated all visiting black belts with the utmost respect, and if you sparred with them, you let them dictate the pace. I imagine that's done everywhere.

But with our own black belts, green belts had to go at them. Really go at them.

We had a TV and VCR at the front of the dojo. Used to watching training films or films of yourself training and fighting.

But everyone was shown this clip from the old film, The Yearling. They were told "The dog, Rip, is a green belt. The bear is a black belt."

Besides the entertainment value, it kept the black belts honest and sharp. Everyone seemed to enjoy it. The brown belts were the most entertained.


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## Yokozuna514 (Jul 29, 2021)

Buka said:


> Geez, I liked this.
> 
> Our belts were white, yellow, orange, blue, purple, green, brown and black. But green belt was what we made the first "real" belt. I used to joke that if I ran into you thirty years from now -"if you made green belt, I might remember your name."
> 
> ...


Osu, well said Buka.

In Kyokushin, green belt is typically the first 'advanced' belt.   It's the 'decision' maker belt.   It is the first belt where you are beginning to be recognized and pushed by the higher belts.   The training is harder and the expectations are higher.    Advanced belts are no longer going to go easy when it comes to sparring with you.  Although lower belts typically set the pace for sparring, green is where advance belts are more prone to test your skills in combat.   Strikes will come in harder and faster.   Care is given to not demoralize a green belt but you will be pushed to make a decision.  Is Kyokushin for you ?   It will not get any easier from this point on so either you are in or you are out.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 29, 2021)

Buka said:


> Geez, I liked this.
> 
> Our belts were white, yellow, orange, blue, purple, green, brown and black. But green belt was what we made the first "real" belt. I used to joke that if I ran into you thirty years from now -"if you made green belt, I might remember your name."
> 
> ...


I'd promote those dogs to brown belt on the spot!  That's spirit!


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