# Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?



## Chrisinmd (Apr 12, 2019)

Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.

Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.

So the advice that you simply have to fight back to end bullying seems not to be the case to me.  Seems like you have to win.  Thoughts?

In my opinion if someone wants to kick your ****, they're not going to be nice about it. The idea that fights are some sort of gentleman's game, where two people face off and fight fair and square, seems like a bit of Hollywood mythology to me. None of my fights I have seen were like that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 12, 2019)

It seems like you've already got your answer, so why ask the question?


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## CB Jones (Apr 12, 2019)

I dont know about punching in the face but I do believe kids need to learn to be self confident, stand up for themselves, and learn conflict resolution.

You dont learn that in your youth and you are in for some hard times as an adult in the real world.


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## ShortBridge (Apr 12, 2019)

Works great, here's a clip.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> It seems like you've already got your answer, so why ask the question?



I don't know the answer that why I asked the question.  I know what I have observed in the past but that may not be indicative of reality or what others have experienced


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 12, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> Works great, here's a clip.



Great clip!  Wish I would have thought of doing that when I was getting fired from my first job! lol


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## CB Jones (Apr 12, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I don't know the answer that why I asked the question.  I know what I have observed in the past but that may not be indicative of reality or what others have experienced



Every situation is different.  There is no standard answer that will cover everything.  That's why it is important to learn conflict resolution as a youth.


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## Danny T (Apr 12, 2019)

The reality is every situation is different.
Most, not all, bullies have a confidence issue it that they are constantly having to prove themselves.
Having the confidence to not let a bully get to you mentally is important. Deflect and redirect their conversation but be prepared for the verbal vitriol they will throw back. Just keep redirecting it but allowing an out that they save face. Otherwise it will most likely become physical. Read the body language. 
Those who don't learn conflict resolution as youngsters will have problems in arguments and as well as feel bullied even non bullying incidents as adults.


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## jobo (Apr 12, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.
> 
> Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.
> 
> ...


well sort of, you may need to actually beat them to a pulp, or at least punch them every time till it sinks in, that they are going to get punched, then they may come back with their mates or their big brother, so then you need to wait till you see them on their own and beat them up again.

generally speaking having a rep as a complete psycho that's going to sneak up behind you with a big stick, means people leave you alone


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## Buka (Apr 12, 2019)

Complicated question, too many variables to have a one size fits all resolution. 

Sometimes....fighting back changes how you are perceived by others in a peer group. The victim of bullying, once fighting back, might no longer be perceived as a victim at all. 

That can also carry out to other walks of life.  Skip to a minute ten if you don't want to wait.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 12, 2019)

The psychology of ending the cycle of being bullied goes deeper then "just a punch".  If that is your impression of the advise then either you or your source missed the point. It's not about a punch or fighting back. It's about not being a victim. There are behavioral patterns of being a victim and not being a victim.  Bullies tend to gravitate to those people who exhibit victim behaviors.  It's kind of a taboo view point but the victim often behaves in such a way that brings about their own victim hood.  I'm not blaming the victim, as much as it might sound like that and it's not always the case. However the advise is about changing behaviors so that the bully is not having his needs met buy bullying you...he will probably find another victim but it won't be you.


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Every situation is different.  There is no standard answer that will cover everything.  That's why it is important to learn conflict resolution as a youth.


Cam you decribe what you mean?  I agree in spirit but I see conflict management as being part of a larger skill set.


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> The psychology of ending the cycle of being bullied goes deeper then "just a punch".  If that is your impression of the advise then either you or your source missed the point. It's not about a punch or fighting back. It's about not being a victim. There are behavioral patterns of being a victim and not being a victim.  Bullies tend to gravitate to those people who exhibit victim behaviors.  It's kind of a taboo view point but the victim often behaves in such a way that brings about their own victim hood.  I'm not blaming the victim, as much as it might sound like that and it's not always the case. However the advise is about changing behaviors so that the bully is not having his needs met buy bullying you...he will probably find another victim but it won't be you.


How do bully victims (I.e., bullies who are also victims of bullies) fit into this?   This is very common.


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## mrt2 (Apr 12, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  *I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.*
> 
> Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.
> 
> ...


It is a tough question and I suspect, nobody really knows.  It rarely happens the way they show on TV and the movies where you stand up for yourself and earn the bully's respect,  (like the end of the original Karate Kid, for example)  

First of all, if you fight a bully, you are playing his game, because bullies generally size up their victims pretty accurately.  That said, sometimes you have to fight a bully, if only to deter others, and maybe the bully will lose interest on focus his attention on someone else.

I dealt with bullies a bit in grade school and middle school, then we moved and I was in a different school district for high school.   I had hoped maybe I could get off to a fresh start in high school, but it was starting to happen again, just not as bad as in middle school.  So I signed up for Tang Soo Do, imagining myself going all Chuck Norris on the first guy to try to f-ck with me.  Well, after about 4 or 5 months of training, I got my chance, and I got a bloody nose, and most of the fight was me wrestling around on the ground with this kid.  Not the spinning back fists, and jump roundhouse kicks of my Chuck Norris *** kicking fantasy.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 12, 2019)

I have read a lot of good suggestions and information in this thread, very impressive.  I have to agree with those who say 'it depends' and 'there is no one-size-fits-all' response.

A lot depends on the dynamics of the situation and both the bully and the victim, not to mention the circumstances.

Here are a couple examples I can relate to.  In a new social setting, like a kid moving to a new town and school, you will be bullied until you fight.  It's as simple as that.  You're going to be attacked.  You will fight back - at some point.  And then the pecking order is established.  The others know where you fit into that.  You can be anywhere in it, from the top to the bottom, and it doesn't matter at all; once you are a known quantity.  

You can get bullied, fight back, and get the stuffing beat out of you.  But typically the bullying stops when you have demonstrated at what point you will fight back, and where you fit into the pecking order.

I was attacked for no apparent reason by a high school kid when I was still in junior high, much younger and smaller.  I had to jump in the air to punch him in the face, and yeah, he beat me black and blue for it.  He also didn't bully me again.  I guess being willing to fight back was all he needed to decide to move on to other victims.  I took the one 'saving face in front of his friends' beating and that was it.

But there are also examples of bullies who have a particular problem with someone, and fighting back won't fix it.  The bully may have mental issues that just can't be resolved by fighting back.  I've certainly seen it.  Dealing with such issues can be very difficult, and solutions may work for one person and not another.  

I think learning de-escalation techniques and passive resistance and all that stuff is also good.  As is learning martial arts at an early age.  One does what one can.

I was raised in an earlier age, and things were less well understood I think.  My solution with a persistent bully was to pick up a brick and beat him in the head until I was pulled off of him.  I had to do it twice.  The third time he bullied me, I told him that even though he could beat me up, I would never stop beating his head in with a brick or a stick or a rock, I'd do it every time I saw his back to me for the rest of his life.  He decided I was too crazy to deal with.  Not saying that was the best possible solution, but I was tired of taking beatings.


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## Orion Nebula (Apr 12, 2019)

I don't know the answer to this, but I think it depends on the situation, and that's what I observed from my own personal experiences. I was frequently bullied as tween, although most of it was verbal or stupid stuff like trying to stick "kick me" signs on my back. However, there were a few instances of more serious bullying.

One set of guys a few years older than me used to walk the same route home as I did from the bus stop and the stuff they would say to me is not appropriate for a public forum. It involved threats of sexual assault among other things. One time one of them got up in my face and I shoved him over. It wasn't even that hard of a push, I just caught him off balance, but that one act of resistance stopped them from ever bothering me again.

In contrast, a year or two later, a few kids would try taking my flute off me when I was waiting for the bus or while I was walking home. Eventually I got tired of it, and one afternoon I just started beating them with the case. They never came near me again. Instead they threw rocks from a distance, which honestly was worse. Although eventually they got tired of it and left me alone, which they likely would have done anyway.


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## CB Jones (Apr 12, 2019)

Steve said:


> Cam you decribe what you mean?  I agree in spirit but I see conflict management as being part of a larger skill set.



I mean that its important to let kids figure it out for themselves most time instead of adults being quick to jump in and resolve it.

Kids should be learning conflict resolution by trial and error.


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I mean that its important to let kids figure it out for themselves most time instead of adults being quick to jump in and resolve it.
> 
> Kids should be learning conflict resolution by trial and error.


Okay.  Yes.   I agree mostly.   Bullying is a by product of kids who lack the skills to learn only by trial and error.


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## mrt2 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have read a lot of good suggestions and information in this thread, very impressive.  I have to agree with those who say 'it depends' and 'there is no one-size-fits-all' response.
> 
> A lot depends on the dynamics of the situation and both the bully and the victim, not to mention the circumstances.
> 
> ...


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## mrt2 (Apr 13, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have read a lot of good suggestions and information in this thread, very impressive.  I have to agree with those who say 'it depends' and 'there is no one-size-fits-all' response.
> 
> A lot depends on the dynamics of the situation and both the bully and the victim, not to mention the circumstances.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting point.  Come to think of it, after that one fight, which wasn't the *** kicking I thought it would be, I took a little bit of crap for getting my nose bloodied but never got challenged to a fight again.

I did also work to transform my body over the summer after that fight and came back to school 35 lbs lighter and hence, maybe less of a target, since I wasn't the fat kid any more.  I also changed my attitude a bit.  Instead of trying to fit in, I hung out with my friends, and when I wasn't among friends, I kept to myself.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> That is an interesting point.  Come to think of it, after that one fight, which wasn't the *** kicking I thought it would be, I took a little bit of crap for getting my nose bloodied but never got challenged to a fight again.
> 
> I did also work to transform my body over the summer after that fight and came back to school 35 lbs lighter and hence, maybe less of a target, since I wasn't the fat kid any more.  I also changed my attitude a bit.  Instead of trying to fit in, I hung out with my friends, and when I wasn't among friends, I kept to myself.



I have no experience with this, but I am told that when men go to prison, they have to fight, or become some other man's girlfriend.  They don't have to win, they have to show they have heart.  This hyper-machismo environment is an exaggerated version of our society in other ways, particularly young men trying to figure out their place in the world.

In the military, I had to fight to find my place in my unit.  After that I did not have to fight my barracks-mates again; nor when I moved from base to base thereafter.  Once a reputation is made, it's made, for good or ill.  In the Marines, my friends called me 'maddog'.  I guess there's a reason for that.  It wasn't because I was a great fighter, but it might have been because if I had to fight, I was f'ing nuts.


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## Buka (Apr 13, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I mean that its important to let kids figure it out for themselves most time instead of adults being quick to jump in and resolve it.
> 
> Kids should be learning conflict resolution by trial and error.



You're spot on there, CB, kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids. It's one of the great advantages of going to school as opposed to being home schooled.

There  are actually some long term advantages to having been bullied when you were young. When you are the subject of bullying you pick up cues more than someone who has never been bullied. When you see the sideways glance out of the corner of your eye, "the face", the positioning, hear the whispers, you know full well what's about to go down.

If you're the jock, or the popular kid, or tough, or whatever, you don't always recognize all the cues because your butt doesn't depend on recognizing them. Especially if the clues are subtle.

And not to go off on a side rant too much here - but I believe one of our responsibilities as Martial Arts Instructors, besides the development of character and fitness and art etc, is teaching kids (and adults) how to defend themselves if need be. How to flat out f'n fight.

I do not believe it should be a by product. I believe it a responsibility.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 13, 2019)

Social violence does have SOME rules to it.   They are unwritten, but unless you want to be swarmed by people thats a consideration.    (like when you see people break it up when people go to the ground)

But that obviously depends on the culture where you live at, kind of like how England was with boxing, viewing kicks as basically detestable to fight someone with.     It still passes over slightly but not as extreme.


As for the question, it really depends what type of bully, i dont really know them.     I dont know many people who would nearly get killed then start a physical confrontation again (without a weapon anyway).     Its either ignore and then retaliate when they actually start something or go all in.        I wouldn't really endorse anyone to not defend their property and person unless they are outnumbered or something.  


(much to contrary belief telling doesn't work as well as some people make it out to, but that depends on school etc)


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 13, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> The psychology of ending the cycle of being bullied goes deeper then "just a punch".  If that is your impression of the advise then either you or your source missed the point. It's not about a punch or fighting back. It's about not being a victim. There are behavioral patterns of being a victim and not being a victim.  Bullies tend to gravitate to those people who exhibit victim behaviors.  It's kind of a taboo view point but the victim often behaves in such a way that brings about their own victim hood.  I'm not blaming the victim, as much as it might sound like that and it's not always the case. However the advise is about changing behaviors so that the bully is not having his needs met buy bullying you...he will probably find another victim but it won't be you.



Good post.  Whatt are the behavioral patterns of being a victim that you are referring to?  Im wondering if these behavioral patterns are really something a young person has much control over themselves.  For example if they are just a very shy person or possibly suffering from a mental disorder such as depression or an anxiety disorder.  Guess the type of parenting you have as well is a factor.  If your a naturally very shy person from an abusive household and that probably led to some mental health issue for the child.  Tough for a kid to pull themselves out of that on their own.  I think a lot of kids who don't fight back and stand up for themselves have these underlying issues as to why they don't fight back.  A emotionally healthy person doesn't just let someone use themselves as a punching bag in my opinion.


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## Gweilo (Apr 13, 2019)

Some times the advice given to the bullied, can be detrimental, in my case I was bullied by a local lad, I would go home crying about how this local lad had made my day crap by bulling, I was about 7 years old, and it was the start of the school summer holidays I was playing Football (soccer to our American friends), this lad came over and bullied me, I went home crying, my father was home (quite rare as he was usally working or in the pub), he came from a family that travelled the uk as fare grounds people, my grandad was a boxer, that would charge a shilling, and if you beat him in a boxing match you would win a £5 note, which was more than a weeks wages back then, anyhow, as I went home crying, my dad took me into the garden, and taught me how to jab, hook cross, uppercut, slip etc, if I got it wrong I was met with a jab in the face or ribs, not really hard, but enough to hurt. I was then instructed to go outside and fight the bully,  and if I failed, my dad would make the rest of my holiday hell, I went out and floored the bully, from there on there was no end of people who wanted to fight, the jab, cross hook thing worked for a while, until I met a lad who was 16, and I was 11, he put me on my **** real quick, no matter what I tried,  he had my number, so I joined a local MA school, Bujinkan, I would go 3 times a week, because I had to be better, over time I got better,  but I had become the bully, in 1988, myself and other lads went on our 1st foreign holiday to Spain, beers, bravado etc, lead me to punching a Spanish police officer, and let me tell you, the Spanish police don't muck around with them batons, I was bruised from the neck down to the the achilles.
We ended up in the tabloid newspapers and calped larger louts, and even though the whole truth of the events in Spain was not reported, mud sticks, I was barred from pubs I had never been to, I could not get a job locally if I had worked for free. The result was I had to move to another part of the country, and start again, even start a new MA for the right reasons, but the bulling thing is subject to every individual,  yes there is a pecking order, yes there are people who prey on perceived weaker people, sometimes fighting will stop bulling, but the overall principle is control, control the situation through your own awareness, and your own actions, it's sometimes easy to get carried away, giving advice on bulling is easy, giving advice on self control but in practise it is not, that is why I continue to train in Martial arts.


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## Steve (Apr 13, 2019)

Buka said:


> You're spot on there, CB, kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids. It's one of the great advantages of going to school as opposed to being home schooled.
> 
> There  are actually some long term advantages to having been bullied when you were young. When you are the subject of bullying you pick up cues more than someone who has never been bullied. When you see the sideways glance out of the corner of your eye, "the face", the positioning, hear the whispers, you know full well what's about to go down.
> 
> ...


 As with cb Jones, you guys are talking about two completely different groups of kids.   Most kids do learn these things as you say.  But the kids who bully and who are bullied are literally the kids who need some kind of assistance in the area.  If it were as easy as you guys suggest, we would not have bullies or victims of bullies at all.   

Ultimately, I agree that kids, in general, should be trusted to figure stuff out on their own.  AND, that’s kind of irrelevant to this discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.
> 
> Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.
> 
> ...


Punching them in the face will probably end the bullying...if the punch makes them sit down hard, and convinces them that's the best they can do. If you miss either half of that, it can have a pretty random effect. Standing up to a bully has a predictably (but not guaranteed) positive effect, but escalating to violence has a less predictable effect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2019)

Steve said:


> How do bully victims (I.e., bullies who are also victims of bullies) fit into this?   This is very common.


I think in a lot of cases, they are trying to fit into the social order they've been taught. They've learned there are bullies and victims, and they know being a victim sucks, so they're trying to choose to be the other.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have read a lot of good suggestions and information in this thread, very impressive.  I have to agree with those who say 'it depends' and 'there is no one-size-fits-all' response.
> 
> A lot depends on the dynamics of the situation and both the bully and the victim, not to mention the circumstances.
> 
> ...


I fairly agree with everything except the inevitability of bullying/fighting back. It's common, but not an absolute. Some folks go to a new school, and just fit into a group right away.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 13, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Good post.  Whatt are the behavioral patterns of being a victim that you are referring to?  Im wondering if these behavioral patterns are really something a young person has much control over themselves.  For example if they are just a very shy person or possibly suffering from a mental disorder such as depression or an anxiety disorder.  Guess the type of parenting you have as well is a factor.  If your a naturally very shy person from an abusive household and that probably led to some mental health issue for the child.  Tough for a kid to pull themselves out of that on their own.  I think a lot of kids who don't fight back and stand up for themselves have these underlying issues as to why they don't fight back.  A emotionally healthy person doesn't just let someone use themselves as a punching bag in my opinion.


My experience is that the patterns can be changed, even if only in relation to bullies. I was bullied a LOT as a kid. I was small and shy, and just took it. Somewhere along the line, I stopped taking it. First it was just flailing out. After Judo, it started to include putting people on the ground, hard. Then I started being the guy who waded in to stop bullies who tag-teamed someone. By that time, I'd learned to "give off a vibe" when I found someone who seemed to want to start trouble. My best friend actually had questions about it once, after he saw me stare down an older kid at the bowling alley (he'd known me back back when I took it). The fighting back isn't the important part, though I think I had to do that to get the confidence to do what really mattered: look back at them with confidence.


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## dvcochran (Apr 13, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.
> 
> Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.
> 
> ...



It is a big question that is usually and best answered with time. I have read through the post and you have gotten many good answers, many with common theme.
One is to learn how to resolve conflict. It is easy to say that but I imagine it is hard to really noodle out what it means at a younger age. I would tell you to think about it from within. Find a firm and realistic image of how you see others who do not get bullied. If you think you want to be the guy who beats everyone up that is not realistic. If you want to be someone who never has conflict that is not realistic either. The people who have less conflict and are not bullied as often are many things (shy, arrogant, big, small, black, white, etc...). What they have in common is a they like themselves for the most part and do not overtly shed their label (shy, etc...)onto others to be used against them. This lessen the odds of being chosen out of the list to be picked on. Learning to be comfortable with yourself and around other people is a huge step.
The second is knowing when and most importantly how to hit if learning the non-physical skills are not enough. Day to day life for most young people is more complicated today so it is a taller order to navigate our own emotions and character, let alone someone else's. There is no video or conversation you can have with anyone who will prepare for conflict. It can come from many things; a conflict filled lifestyle or family, society or region, or learning from a quality MA or fighting system/style. Even with one or all of these there are mental and psychological factors that are impossible for anyone to predict. Some people can just really get into a persons head and play games.
So, no I do not think the odds of a one punch scenario gaining respect is very realistic. It has much to do with how you carry yourself before and after the punch. Something I always stress to students is when you absolutely know you have no other choice except to hit, you hit hard and you hit over, and over, and over until you know you either have the other person under control or you can as safely as possible run away. 
It is easy to set on the sideline and say it is really not all that complicated a thing. I am old enough that I don't really remember my first fight. I am certain that things have seemed like a mountain I would never get over at times but somehow you look up and the mountain is just a hill in hindsight.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 13, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I was about 7 years old, and it was the start of the school summer holidays I was playing Football (soccer to our American friends), this lad came over and bullied me, I went home crying, my father was home (quite rare as he was usally working or in the pub), he came from a family that travelled the uk as fare grounds people, my grandad was a boxer, that would charge a shilling, and if you beat him in a boxing match you would win a £5 note, which was more than a weeks wages back then, anyhow, as I went home crying, my dad took me into the garden, and taught me how to jab, hook cross, uppercut, slip etc, if I got it wrong I was met with a jab in the face or ribs, not really hard, but enough to hurt. I was then instructed to go outside and fight the bully,  and if I failed, my dad would make the rest of my holiday hell



Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:

Hindley's father had served with the Parachute Regiment and had been stationed in North Africa, Cyprus and Italy during the Second World War.[115] He had been known in the army as a "hard man" and he expected his daughter to be equally tough; he taught her how to fight, and insisted that she "stick up for herself". When Hindley was 8, a local boy approached her in the street and scratched both of her cheeks with his fingernails, drawing blood. She burst into tears and ran into her parents' house, to be met by her father, who demanded that she "Go and punch him [the boy], because if you don't I'll leather you!" Hindley found the boy and succeeded in knocking him down with a sequence of punches, as her father had taught her. As she wrote later, "at eight years old I'd scored my first victory".[116]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.[117]


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 13, 2019)

Buka said:


> There  are actually some long term advantages to having been bullied when you were young. When you are the subject of bullying you pick up cues more than someone who has never been bullied. When you see the sideways glance out of the corner of your eye, "the face", the positioning, hear the whispers, you know full well what's about to go down.
> I



Advantages to being bullied?  Sure I guess there are but I think they are far outweighted by the negatives.

Teenage Bullying and Suicide: According to the World Health Organization (WHO) nearly a million people worldwide commit suicide each year. Out of that number, about *30,000* people reportedly kill themselves each year in the United States.

Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
2 Landmark studies in Britain and the United States found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying


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## dvcochran (Apr 13, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Advantages to being bullied?  Sure I guess there are but I think they are far outweighted by the negatives.
> 
> Teenage Bullying and Suicide: According to the World Health Organization (WHO) nearly a million people worldwide commit suicide each year. Out of that number, about *30,000* people reportedly kill themselves each year in the United States.
> 
> ...


It is very important that the definition used to back theses numbers is understood. I do not disagree at all but I do subscribe to the old saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I would rather be a victim of true bullying than I had the label of being a statistic.


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## drop bear (Apr 14, 2019)

I don't know if it helps. But I found this kind of cool.


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## Gweilo (Apr 14, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:
> 
> The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.[117]



I think the professor is correct, it's been over 40 years since that incident, and it is the one point that I regress to as the starting point of the issues I faced an still deal with today, I don't think violence always breeds violence,  but when violence is used as a coping strategy,  or as a way of dealing with issues, rather than conventional problem solving skills, it becomes a way of normality. In my other post I mentioned I became the bully, not the type that singled out those who appeared weak, but used violence or the threat of, to resolve situations, I was not the person who went to the pub had one too many and started trouble, no too many beers inhibits performance, what I suppose I am trying to say is it was calculated violence strategy, but relished the fighting. On reflection I see it as a mental illness, and luckily never killed anyone.


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## Steve (Apr 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think in a lot of cases, they are trying to fit into the social order they've been taught. They've learned there are bullies and victims, and they know being a victim sucks, so they're trying to choose to be the other.


Right.  You get it.  So, how does that fit into the other blanket theory?  In other words, you explained my question, but you didn’t answer it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 14, 2019)

Steve said:


> Right.  You get it.  So, how does that fit into the other blanket theory?  In other words, you explained my question, but you didn’t answer it.


This isn't an area I've looked at much (not since my teen years, anyway), so I'm going off the cuff here. My best understanding suggests bully-victims (the group you're talking about) need to be taught social skills, how to handle conflict without seeing it as binary like this. They probably need to learn to avoid being a victim in ways other than being the aggressor, and how to be (and, more importantly, feel) strong without having to be cruel.

I think the dynamic is probably pretty close to what we see with abusers who become abusers.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I fairly agree with everything except the inevitability of bullying/fighting back. It's common, but not an absolute. Some folks go to a new school, and just fit into a group right away.



Might have just been me, but my parents moved around a lot when I was growing up.  New school, new fight.  Right up to high school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 14, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Might have just been me, but my parents moved around a lot when I was growing up.  New school, new fight.  Right up to high school.


I think you're just trouble, Bill.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think you're just trouble, Bill.



There is very little doubt of that, my friend.


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## Buka (Apr 14, 2019)

Steve said:


> As with cb Jones, you guys are talking about two completely different groups of kids.   Most kids do learn these things as you say.  But the kids who bully and who are bullied are literally the kids who need some kind of assistance in the area.  If it were as easy as you guys suggest, we would not have bullies or victims of bullies at all.
> 
> Ultimately, I agree that kids, in general, should be trusted to figure stuff out on their own.  AND, that’s kind of irrelevant to this discussion.



I never said it was easy, Steve. Clear, but not easy.


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## Buka (Apr 14, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Advantages to being bullied?  Sure I guess there are but I think they are far outweighted by the negatives.



I agree with that statement one hundred percent. But I stand by what I said.


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## Steve (Apr 14, 2019)

Buka said:


> I never said it was easy, Steve. Clear, but not easy.


Okay.  I'm not being direcr enough, I guess.  I think you're wrong.  Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous.  

Where bullying isn't an issue, sure, I agree with you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 14, 2019)

Steve said:


> Okay.  I'm not being direcr enough, I guess.  I think you're wrong.  Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous.
> 
> Where bullying isn't an issue, sure, I agree with you.


While I tend to agree with the sentiment, I don't think it's a universal truth, Steve. I can't think of any way for an adult to have intervened in most of the bullying I experience, in a way that wouldn't have made it worse for me in the long run. By that, I'm not talking about the bullying getting worse, but that someone else solving it would have left me without the learning and confidence that came from having to deal with it...leaving me still in the same state (or worse?) and subject to continued bullying. Now, it's possible there was a way, but I don't see it.


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## dvcochran (Apr 14, 2019)

I was never a badass fighter but did enjoy the fray in my youth. We grew up in a country setting where fighting was not a means to condemn or identify someone except in extreme instances. We fought for fun most the time; even most of our bar room fights had no malice in them and the fighters usually ended up having a drink with each other before the sun came up. I guess this is a big part of why I have a hard time identifying with most definitions of bullying. Abuse, absolutely. Physical and mental abuse are unquestionably real. It is hard to understand how in a modern society with so much to do and learn how people can get so narrowly focused on certain negatives. In every situation a person can choose to change their environment to disclude or at the least ignore someone. It is a choice, like most things in life.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I was never a badass fighter but did enjoy the fray in my youth. We grew up in a country setting where fighting was not a means to condemn or identify someone except in extreme instances. We fought for fun most the time; even most of our bar room fights had no malice in them and the fighters usually ended up having a drink with each other before the sun came up. I guess this is a big part of why I have a hard time identifying with most definitions of bullying. Abuse, absolutely. Physical and mental abuse are unquestionably real. It is hard to understand how in a modern society with so much to do and learn how people can get so narrowly focused on certain negatives. In every situation a person can choose to change their environment to disclude or at the least ignore someone. It is a choice, like most things in life.



What country did you grow up in?  When you say you fought for fun was that true for the other person?  You may have found it "fun"  that dosent mean the other person seen it that way.  What type of long term effects did it have on them?  We will never know


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## dvcochran (Apr 14, 2019)

Steve said:


> As with cb Jones, you guys are talking about two completely different groups of kids.   Most kids do learn these things as you say.  But the kids who bully and who are bullied are literally the kids who need some kind of assistance in the area.  If it were as easy as you guys suggest, we would not have bullies or victims of bullies at all.
> 
> Ultimately, I agree that kids, in general, should be trusted to figure stuff out on their own.  AND, that’s kind of irrelevant to this discussion.


Repercussions for improper acts and punishment that fits the crime. I'll leave it there.


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## dvcochran (Apr 14, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> What country did you grow up in?  When you say you fought for fun was that true for the other person?  You may have found it "fun"  that dosent mean the other person seen it that way.  What type of long term effects did it have on them?  We will never know


Middle TN. Like I said, most often those in the fight usually ended up having a drink by sun up. Sure there were times when two people just could not get along so they usually drifted into different circles and moved on with their life. That is my point; move on and find more. Choose to discover there is much more going on around you. 
What part of the world are you in that makes this so impossible?


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Middle TN. Like I said, most often those in the fight usually ended up having a drink by sun up. Sure there were times when two people just could not get along so they usually drifted into different circles and moved on with their life. That is my point; move on and find more. Choose to discover there is much more going on around you.
> What part of the world are you in that makes this so impossible?



I grew up in Kansas so a pretty similar situation as you I would imagine. I don't think its impossible at all to have a drink after a fight and be civil to each other.  I guess the difference im thinking of is between a one time fight and a longtime bullying situation.  Sure you get in a one time fight over a woman or some bar fight over some random issue you can get beyond it and be best buddies I guess.  But when someone is being abused so to speak not the case.  Kind of like saying a woman who is get beaten buy her husband or child be abused should make amends with their abuser and just act like its all water under the bridge


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## dvcochran (Apr 14, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I grew up in Kansas so a pretty similar situation as you I would imagine. I don't think its impossible at all to have a drink after a fight and be civil to each other.  I guess the difference im thinking of is between a one time fight and a longtime bullying situation.  Sure you get in a one time fight over a woman or some bar fight over some random issue you can get beyond it and be best buddies I guess.  But when someone is being abused so to speak not the case.  Kind of like saying a woman who is get beaten buy her husband or child be abused should make amends with their abuser and just act like its all water under the bridge


Agree, but you are making my point. Are we talking about abuse or bullying? If the latter I get that it is harder for certain personalities to get along. From my experience exposure is one of the best ways to learn how to resolve or at least handle (co-exist?) conflict, or anything for that matter. If you are including abuse into the conversation, the discussion has to go a very different direction. Like I said earlier, let the punishment fit the crime. I do not what I consider bullying a crime.


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## Steve (Apr 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> While I tend to agree with the sentiment, I don't think it's a universal truth, Steve. I can't think of any way for an adult to have intervened in most of the bullying I experience, in a way that wouldn't have made it worse for me in the long run. By that, I'm not talking about the bullying getting worse, but that someone else solving it would have left me without the learning and confidence that came from having to deal with it...leaving me still in the same state (or worse?) and subject to continued bullying. Now, it's possible there was a way, but I don't see it.


I agree that it is possible.   I think you're projecting a lot onto my post that isbt there.   But yeah, in simple term, where kids dont have the natural aptitude to avoid being a victim or victimizing others, leaving them to just figure it out is pretty irresponsible.   

Now, to be clear, there are things adults do that help and things that don't help.  Suggesting that adults can't help is ignorant.


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## Steve (Apr 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Repercussions for improper acts and punishment that fits the crime. I'll leave it there.


totally fine if you want to leave it there, but I really don't know what you mean.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Agree, but you are making my point. Are we talking about abuse or bullying? If the latter I get that it is harder for certain personalities to get along. From my experience exposure is one of the best ways to learn how to resolve or at least handle (co-exist?) conflict, or anything for that matter. If you are including abuse into the conversation, the discussion has to go a very different direction. Like I said earlier, let the punishment fit the crime. I do not what I consider bullying a crime.



Where does bullying turn into abuse?  I think that is a very fine line to walk.   If a 250 ibs husband beats the **** out of his 120 ibs wife everyday its abuse.  If a 250 ibs who plays O line on the football team beats the **** out of the 120 science nerd or band geek so to speak its just bullying?  I guess I consider bullying to be verbal such as calling names which I would agree is not a crime.  When it gets physical that's abuse and that is a crime. 

Agree with you completely that exposure therapy is one of the best ways to learn how to resolve issues or deal with your fears.


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## dvcochran (Apr 15, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Where does bullying turn into abuse?  I think that is a very fine line to walk.   If a 250 ibs husband beats the **** out of his 120 ibs wife everyday its abuse.  If a 250 ibs who plays O line on the football team beats the **** out of the 120 science nerd or band geek so to speak its just bullying?  I guess I consider bullying to be verbal such as calling names which I would agree is not a crime.  When it gets physical that's abuse and that is a crime.
> 
> Agree with you completely that exposure therapy is one of the best ways to learn how to resolve issues or deal with your fears.


Some laws are written with so much built in subjectivity it is easy to understand why we see differences in judges decisions. Your first example implies a felony case but again we are back to at the very least semantics. What constitutes beating the *** out of someone? It that a black eye? Or is that putting someone on the ground and pummeling them? I agree verbal abuse can get in some peoples head and be a problem. I don't know how you quantify it though since our country has such broad range of vernacular. For example saying dumb*** is a common address to some and offensive to others. I am offended by how "loose" some slang language in our country has gotten. Do I consider it verbal abuse when I hear it, or even when it is addressed at me? No, but I may have a rebuttal. There is so much unfiltered, or more correctly expressed writing without a physical attachment, on social media I have to remind myself of this fact when reading some peoples knee-jerk comments. I believe social interaction was much more taught or learned through everyday life a generation or two prior. Social skills are not being taught or sadly sometimes never learned. The awkward years of a tweener or teenager should have great value in learning these skills provided a person gets out and expands their surroundings and exposure to people of different circles.


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## Danny T (Apr 15, 2019)

Part of the problem with what is perceived as bullying today can simply be school yard teasing.
I've got kids and parents who come in telling me the child is being bullied and after a conversation with the child it is often just some teasing. Can that if continued as taunting become bullying, yes. However, kids need to learn how to deal with such.


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## Steve (Apr 15, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Part of the problem with what is perceived as bullying today can simply be school yard teasing.
> I've got kids and parents who come in telling me the child is being bullied and after a conversation with the child it is often just some teasing. Can that if continued as taunting become bullying, yes. However, kids need to learn how to deal with such.


Does anyone here think that a kid could learn tkd or BJJ by themselves?  What about math or history?  Or baseball or to play the violin?  I don't think so.  Why, then, do we think kids can just figure this out?   Adults have a role to play, whether that is modelling behaviors, being a good coach, or something else.   Sometimes, adults need to be more directly involved.  

And like everything else, kids need to do it themselves to build skills.  But this lord of the flies mentality is downright medieval .


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## Martial D (Apr 15, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.
> 
> Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.
> 
> ...


In my experience most of the fights that happened due to me feeling I needed to stand up for myself(mostly in my youth) ended with new, years long close friends or at least a mutual sense of respect.


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## mrt2 (Apr 15, 2019)

Martial D said:


> In my experience most of the fights that happened due to me feeling I needed to stand up for myself(mostly in my youth) ended with new, years long close friends or at least a mutual sense of respect.


That was not my experience at all.  The best I can say about fighting was, it was sometimes necessary.  But anyone I had to fight with was not someone I ever wanted to be friends with.

 The closest I ever had to fighting with one of my friends was, a friend of mine threw something at me once during an argument, and once when one of my friends was goofing around making fun of my martial arts skills, and walked right into my front kick.  I was going to pull the kick back but because he walked right into the kick, I dropped him.  He never made fun of my martial arts skills after that.  But those weren't really fights.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 15, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Your first example implies a felony case but again we are back to at the very least semantics. What constitutes beating the *** out of someone? It that a black eye? Or is that putting someone on the ground and pummeling them? I agree verbal abuse can get in some peoples head and be a problem.



Sure I guess in my example the husband beating the crap out of woman and putting her would be the felony situation your talking about.  Probaly giving her a black eye would be more of a misdeamnor domestic violence situation.  Verbal abuse I think depends a lot on the situation as well.  A classmate calling you fat or gay something like that I would not consider really bullying.  But your parents verbally abusing you and calling you worthless and you should just kill yourself would be abuse.  Verbal abuse can be very damaging to a person even if nothing physical


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## Buka (Apr 15, 2019)

Steve said:


> Okay.  I'm not being direcr enough, I guess.  I think you're wrong.  Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous.
> 
> Where bullying isn't an issue, sure, I agree with you.



_Okay. I'm not being direct enough, I guess._

Being direct is good sometimes.

_I think you're wrong._

Sure wouldn't be the first time.

_ 
Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous_.

I agree. I have never left anybody, child or adult, to fend for themselves against a bully. Not ever. I've been dealing with and teaching people to deal with bullies all my life, even as a kid getting bullied. I've dealt with this subject, taught and counselled kids in high school (under extremely harsh circumstances for several years) some in college, in juvenile detention, in law enforcement and for many ears in dojos. Both my own dojos and other peoples.

I believe the confusion about what I said is twofold, first by my inadequacies in the written word in an online format, but specifically (probably) about this statement I made _"kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids."_
And they do learn about conflict resolution, unfortunately the kids being bullied don't usually get the benefits of any conflict resolution if nobody steps in. I always step in. Always have, always will.

I'm still doing it today as an old man. Quite well, actually, but it is more difficult. Had one Saturday that was a corker. And a royal pain in the -.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 15, 2019)

thought i would share a couple definitions of bullying.

What Is Bullying
_Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Both kids who are bullied and who bully others may have serious, lasting problems. 

In order to be considered bullying, the behavior must be aggressive and include:
_

_*An Imbalance of Power: *Kids who bully use their power—such as physical strength, access to embarrassing information, or popularity—to control or harm others. Power imbalances can change over time and in different situations, even if they involve the same people._
_*Repetition: *Bullying behaviors happen more than once or have the potential to happen more than once_
Definition Of Bullying | National Centre Against Bullying
_The definition of bullying is when an individual or a group of people with more power, repeatedly and intentionally cause hurt or harm to another person or group of people who feel helpless to respond. Bullying can continue over time, is often hidden from adults, and will probably continue if no action is taken._
_
_
so as some of you talk about having a beer after a scuffle with the bully, i dont really see the correlation.
i think the key factors are they involve school age children not adults. and that it is a repeated behavior, not a one time thing.  avoiding a bully is not really an option, most  of the time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Middle TN. Like I said, most often those in the fight usually ended up having a drink by sun up. Sure there were times when two people just could not get along so they usually drifted into different circles and moved on with their life. That is my point; move on and find more. Choose to discover there is much more going on around you.
> What part of the world are you in that makes this so impossible?


Bullies usually pursue. I can remember kids (and this extends into high school), following their target to other areas of the school, seeking them out to pick on them. I don't know what choices the victim has in association in that situation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2019)

Steve said:


> I agree that it is possible.   I think you're projecting a lot onto my post that isbt there.   But yeah, in simple term, where kids dont have the natural aptitude to avoid being a victim or victimizing others, leaving them to just figure it out is pretty irresponsible.
> 
> Now, to be clear, there are things adults do that help and things that don't help.  Suggesting that adults can't help is ignorant.


Sorry if I read more into than was there. I was trying to find the intent in the post.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Where does bullying turn into abuse?  I think that is a very fine line to walk.   If a 250 ibs husband beats the **** out of his 120 ibs wife everyday its abuse.  If a 250 ibs who plays O line on the football team beats the **** out of the 120 science nerd or band geek so to speak its just bullying?  I guess I consider bullying to be verbal such as calling names which I would agree is not a crime.  When it gets physical that's abuse and that is a crime.
> 
> Agree with you completely that exposure therapy is one of the best ways to learn how to resolve issues or deal with your fears.


Bullying and abuse are on a continuum, and not distinct classifications, in my opinion. And there's overlap. In large part, I think the distinction we tend to draw is domestic. When two kids are involved at school, we tend to consider it bullying. If two adults are involved at work, we tend to consider it bullying. Make that spouses or a parent and child, and we call it abuse - whether physical or emotional.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If two adults are involved at work, we tend to consider it bullying.


i dont think work relations would be defined as bullying. i would call it harassment/ assault but i can see how the word fits the circumstance behavior and the fact that bullying is a hot topic over the last decade, it makes sense that the use of the word would have carried over to other venues and age groups.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 15, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont think work relations would be defined as bullying. i would call it harassment/ assault but i can see how the word fits the circumstance behavior and the fact that bullying is a hot topic over the last decade, it makes sense that the use of the word would have carried over to other venues and age groups.


Legally, it's likely to end up (but not start) as harassment. I don't think what we'd call "bullying" at work would ever rise to assault. But I do hear people talk about how a given manager bullies other people, far more often than I hear them calling it harassment or abuse.


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## dvcochran (Apr 15, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Good post.  Whatt are the behavioral patterns of being a victim that you are referring to?  Im wondering if these behavioral patterns are really something a young person has much control over themselves.  For example if they are just a very shy person or possibly suffering from a mental disorder such as depression or an anxiety disorder.  Guess the type of parenting you have as well is a factor.  If your a naturally very shy person from an abusive household and that probably led to some mental health issue for the child.  Tough for a kid to pull themselves out of that on their own.  I think a lot of kids who don't fight back and stand up for themselves have these underlying issues as to why they don't fight back.  A emotionally healthy person doesn't just let someone use themselves as a punching bag in my opinion.


Good post. I very much subscribe to idea of working on oneself instead of trying to fix everyone around you.


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## dvcochran (Apr 15, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Sure I guess in my example the husband beating the crap out of woman and putting her would be the felony situation your talking about.  Probaly giving her a black eye would be more of a misdeamnor domestic violence situation.  Verbal abuse I think depends a lot on the situation as well.  A classmate calling you fat or gay something like that I would not consider really bullying.  But your parents verbally abusing you and calling you worthless and you should just kill yourself would be abuse.  Verbal abuse can be very damaging to a person even if nothing physical


To be very clear, I do think a husband giving his wife a black eye is abuse. Two guys who get in a fight with one or both ending up with a shiner is really not anything. One guy overpowering the other when totally unsolicited I would call bullying.


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## JR 137 (Apr 15, 2019)

We lived in the projects when I was 4-7 years old. We were the only non-black kids. My stepbrothers are Hispanic twins a year older than me. I’m white. We’d be walking to or from school, literally down the hill across the street, and hear “there go the white boys.” It was always more kids than the 3 of us, and they were always older. Not the same exact group of kids every time, but always a few of the core group.

One day we ran home being chased by a group of probably about 5 of them. My stepfather who worked nights at the time sees us run in the house and asks us what’s going on. We tried to play cool saying we were playing chase as he’s looking out the window at the kids. He gave us that look so we told him what was going on. He says “you guys either get out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me.” Of course no one’s as big and strong and tough as your father when you’re that age, so went went outside. We held our own for a few minutes, and he came out once things got out of hand.

That group never bothered us again. We weren’t worth their effort, so they moved on to the next group.

After that, we barely backed down individually or as a group. Sure there were people over the years who gave each of us problems, but we fought. Win or lose, the problems didn’t last long. It’s easier to pick on someone who’s not going to fight back, even if they can beat you up.

We were lucky we had each other too though. We fought each other quite a bit. And our father bought us boxing gloves. And he put them on sometimes too.

Some kids don’t have siblings, cousins or even friends to help them out. They’re at a disadvantage here. But regardless of that, if people know you’re willing to fight when push comes to shove (figuratively and literally), they’re typically going to move on to the next target. Most bullies will move on, but some won’t. Those are the hardest ones to deal with.

Bullying is definitely different nowadays than it was when I was in school 80s-1994. When you got home back then, you were fine. The internet didn’t follow you. People weren’t getting ideas and upping their game from YouTube and the like. We weren’t recording things.

On the flip side, bullying is less often nowadays. The kids are more likely to step in and stop it. Kids speak up. Teachers look for it and don’t brush it off like they used to. But it’s definitely hard for teachers and administrators to stop it. Once we know about it, it’s been going on for a while. It’s far less often and out in the open, but it’s far more intense when it happens. Actually, it’s far more emotional/psychological than it is physical.

I’m a school teacher. I’ve seen how it’s different nowadays. I’m not saying it’s the same everywhere, but that’s how it is where I’ve been. And my first teaching job and my wife’s current teaching job are at the same school we went to and graduated from. We’ve seen where it was a generation ago and where it is now. 

Edit: No, we’re not high school sweethearts. We knew who each other was, but never hung out or dated. We were out of school a good 10 years before we started dating.


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## dvcochran (Apr 15, 2019)

Steve said:


> Does anyone here think that a kid could learn tkd or BJJ by themselves?  What about math or history?  Or baseball or to play the violin?  I don't think so.  Why, then, do we think kids can just figure this out?   Adults have a role to play, whether that is modelling behaviors, being a good coach, or something else.   Sometimes, adults need to be more directly involved.
> 
> And like everything else, kids need to do it themselves to build skills.  But this lord of the flies mentality is downright medieval .


Agree regarding parents, but I know of no kid that is alone on an island in the U.S. There are a multitude of resources.


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## dvcochran (Apr 15, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> We lived in the projects when I was 4-7 years old. We were the only non-black kids. My stepbrothers are Hispanic twins a year older than me. I’m white. We’d be walking to or from school, literally down the hill across the street, and hear “there go the white boys.” It was always more kids than the 3 of us, and they were always older. Not the same exact group of kids every time, but always a few of the core group.
> 
> One day we ran home being chased by a group of probably about 5 of them. My stepfather who worked nights at the time sees us run in the house and asks us what’s going on. We tried to play cool saying we were playing chase as he’s looking out the window at the kids. He gave us that look so we told him what was going on. He says “you guys either get out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me.” Of course no one’s as big and strong and tough as your father when you’re that age, so went went outside. We held our own for a few minutes, and he came out once things got out of hand.
> 
> ...



Great post. Makes the point very well.


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## JR 137 (Apr 15, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I was never a badass fighter but did enjoy the fray in my youth. We grew up in a country setting where fighting was not a means to condemn or identify someone except in extreme instances. We fought for fun most the time; even most of our bar room fights had no malice in them and the fighters usually ended up having a drink with each other before the sun came up. I guess this is a big part of why I have a hard time identifying with most definitions of bullying. Abuse, absolutely. Physical and mental abuse are unquestionably real. It is hard to understand how in a modern society with so much to do and learn how people can get so narrowly focused on certain negatives. In every situation a person can choose to change their environment to disclude or at the least ignore someone. It is a choice, like most things in life.


Some people, all they have is earning and maintaining a reputation as a tough guy. In their mind they’re not smart, they’re not good looking or good with the ladies, they’re not athletes, they’re not popular, they don’t have any really good friends. Their parents ignore and/or abuse them.

In their mind, the only thing that defines them is being able to beat people up. And truth be told, they’re not that good at that either. They’re good at beating up the weak ones, but they won’t pull that stuff with someone who’s at least an equal match. That’s boys.

Girls are a bit different. Same identity crisis and no other way to define themselves, but they’re far more manipulative and conniving. Less physical, although they’ll do that too. And if there’s a guy they’re after, want to get in a circle and/or maintain that, watch out. Guys will give each other bruises; girls will give each other eating disorders. Guys typically won’t go after someone bigger and stronger; girls will attack the alpha females with psychological warfare.

Both are all about control. They’ve got no control elsewhere in their lives, so they’ll fight for it any way they can, figuratively and literally. Everyone needs to feel in control of something and most people have a good sense of control of the basic necessities. The bullies you really need to look out for don’t have that control, so they look elsewhere.

All IMO.

Edit: If you really think about it, it’s not that much different than the abusive husband and father. Everything’s pretty sh!tty in his life. The only thing he’s got is physically and mentally beating others down. Deep down he doesn’t like it, but in his mind he’s got no other way. He’ll take it out on those weaker than him, especially those that feel trapped, but he won’t pull that bullish!t on someone who’s close to an even match. He’ll act tough to save face, but he’ll back down without looking like he backed down. Genuine scum. And coward.


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## Danny T (Apr 15, 2019)

Steve said:


> Does anyone here think that a kid could learn tkd or BJJ by themselves?  What about math or history?  Or baseball or to play the violin?  I don't think so.  Why, then, do we think kids can just figure this out?   Adults have a role to play, whether that is modelling behaviors, being a good coach, or something else.   Sometimes, adults need to be more directly involved.
> 
> And like everything else, kids need to do it themselves to build skills.  But this lord of the flies mentality is downright medieval .


Wow...Steve. Where did I say such? I said kids need to learn. I never said kids are to be left alone to their own resources.


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## Buka (Apr 15, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> thought i would share a couple definitions of bullying.
> 
> What Is Bullying
> _Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Both kids who are bullied and who bully others may have serious, lasting problems.
> ...



Sounds like a good definition. But what about with adults and young adults? Would that be classified differently? Intimidation maybe? It’s still bullying to me.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 15, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It is very important that the definition used to back theses numbers is understood. I do not disagree at all but I do subscribe to the old saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I would rather be a victim of true bullying than I had the label of being a statistic.



So do you think the numbers are not correct?  What definition are u not agreeing with?


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 15, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> One day we ran home being chased by a group of probably about 5 of them. My stepfather who worked nights at the time sees us run in the house and asks us what’s going on. We tried to play cool saying we were playing chase as he’s looking out the window at the kids. He gave us that look so we told him what was going on. He says “you guys either get out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me.” Of course no one’s as big and strong and tough as your father when you’re that age, so went went outside. We held our own for a few minutes, and he came out once things got out of hand.
> 
> That group never bothered us again. We weren’t worth their effort, so they moved on to the next group.



So do you think this was the best way your stepdad could have handled the situation?  Did you think it caused you any negative effects later in life.

Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:

Hindley's father had served with the Parachute Regiment and had been stationed in North Africa, Cyprus and Italy during the Second World War.[115] He had been known in the army as a "hard man" and he expected his daughter to be equally tough; he taught her how to fight, and insisted that she "stick up for herself". When Hindley was 8, a local boy approached her in the street and scratched both of her cheeks with his fingernails, drawing blood. She burst into tears and ran into her parents' house, to be met by her father, who demanded that she "Go and punch him [the boy], because if you don't I'll leather you!" Hindley found the boy and succeeded in knocking him down with a sequence of punches, as her father had taught her. As she wrote later, "at eight years old I'd scored my first victory".[116]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.


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## JR 137 (Apr 16, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> So do you think this was the best way your stepdad could have handled the situation?  Did you think it caused you any negative effects later in life.
> 
> Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:
> 
> ...


I’m quite sure there’s far more to her story than that.

The follow up to our fight was simple; when we came back in, he told us “if you run away from them today, you’ll run away from them every day. If you stand up to them, they’ll stop chasing you.” He was right. 

We were taught to stand up for ourselves. Violence certainly wasn’t rewarded in our house. We were taught to defend ourselves. The rare times that we started a fight, we had consequences. 

None of us grew up to be bullies, abusers, killers, nor anything else like that. We did however learn to stand up for ourselves and not be targeted by anyone who felt like having fun at our expense.

Reading how one situation in someone’s life doesn’t tell you anything close to the whole story. Teaching kids to stand up to an obvious physical threat doesn’t turn them into psychopaths or sociopaths. If it does, how come every MA student who’s taught how to defend themselves doesn’t turn into one? We didn’t take MA classes, but we were taught the same things - defend yourself when you have to, don’t start fights, don’t let people push you around, and have respect for yourself and others who deserve it. We certainly weren’t rewarded for fighting, regardless of if we were defending ourselves or not. And it all started in the home - were were punished every time we fought each other, regardless of the situation.

Being a parent is a balancing act. Teaching my daughters when they should fight back and when they shouldn’t is very difficult. Fortunately they haven’t had to fight, but they’ve seen a few fights at school. Nothing close to a major fight, but it’s hard telling them what they should do when they ask what to do if it happened to them. Unfortunately, they’re truly not going to learn the balance of when to fight back and when to walk away and/or tell someone else until they’re in that situation once or twice. 

Myra Hindley had far more than “if someone hits you, you hit them back” parenting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> So do you think this was the best way your stepdad could have handled the situation?  Did you think it caused you any negative effects later in life.
> 
> *Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:*
> 
> ...


Psychology is not so definite as the bolded statement implies. Likely that parenting style contributed, but it takes more than that to "produce" a serial killer. Was she psychopathic (that's apparently not learned)? Did she lack support elsewhere? There are other factors that go into that assessment. The same treatment that one person thrives under will crush another person, and we're not yet clear why that is.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont think work relations would be defined as bullying. i would call it harassment/ assault but i can see how the word fits the circumstance behavior and the fact that bullying is a hot topic over the last decade, it makes sense that the use of the word would have carried over to other venues and age groups.


There are a lot of things that occur in the workplace that are not harrassment or assault.   Simply put, those are both legal terms.   There are a lot of destructive behaviors that do not meet the legal definition of assault or harassment that are generally considered workplace bullying.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Agree regarding parents, but I know of no kid that is alone on an island in the U.S. There are a multitude of resources.


Sure.  I agree.  Some better than others . though i will also say that when a kid commits suicide following bukkyjng, they probably don't feel well supported by the adults in their lives.

Some were suggesting kids should learn to deal with bullying on their own.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Legally, it's likely to end up (but not start) as harassment. I don't think what we'd call "bullying" at work would ever rise to assault. But I do hear people talk about how a given manager bullies other people, far more often than I hear them calling it harassment or abuse.


This isnt true.  Workplace bullying rarely approaches or progesses to harassment because it is rarely being done based on a protected base.  I can be the biggest jerk to you, play favorites, embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable.   While that might make me a despicable human, and a terrible co-worker, it isn't harassment.   I can do all of those things without even being your boss.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Wow...Steve. Where did I say such? I said kids need to learn. I never said kids are to be left alone to their own resources.


Sorry man.  Early on, CB Jones said something about kids just need to learn it on the playground, and I was trying to clarify my point.  Sorry for confusion.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

Buka said:


> _Okay. I'm not being direct enough, I guess._
> 
> Being direct is good sometimes.
> 
> ...


First.  Thanks for the clarification.  I think I better understand your point now.

Couple of quick reactions.   One, I'm not as confident as you that kids are learning conflict resolution.   I have worked with tens of thousands of managers and front line employees.  My experience is that most are either conflict avoidant or hyper competitive and directive.  This creates a yoyo affect.  People who are super directive out of the gate tend to get burned pretty quickly.  They overstep and are, often for the first time, told that being the boss isn't just about bossing people around and telling employees everything they're doing wrong.  So the typical reaction is to retreat to avoidance, where they don't trust their own instincts and become paralyzed by indecision.  That is, until something occurs that they just can't take and they fall back to their default.

The other side of this are people who are inclined to be conflict avoidant.  They tend to avoid conflict until it becomes unmanageable and they are forced to take action.  They generally steel themselves for conflict and then let the other person have it, dropping the proverbial hammer, often making things worse.

Think about this in terms of bullying.  What are kids learning?  I think they learn about assertiveness, which is the spectrum I'm describing above.  They learn about when to be assertive, and find that some variation of assertiveness works well for them.  What kids should also be learning is to cooperate, which is the other axis on the conflict resolution.  And this is the biggest difference between when I was a kid and now.  I don't know about everywhere, but where my kids went to school, they are actually taught conflict resolution skills, including not just how to temper assertiveness, but also how to be cooperative.  They are also being taught related skills, such as how to demonstrate empathy, which aren't strictly speaking, conflict resolution but definitely help.

Edit:  Just want to add to the point above regarding cooperativeness, that this is why sports and such are so good for a child's development.  While some never move beyond the competitiveness of the activity, most develop some really important life skills.  Sportsmanship has a direct correlation to conflict management, for example. 

And the final reaction is to just distinguish between learning and practicing.  I would say that some learning occurs on the playground, but it's much more a laboratory for practicing.  In the martial arts analogy, kids learn technique and then they spar.  The playground is analogous to sparring, but they're practicing what they learn.  And if they don't learn it from good role models, including adults, they will practice what they see from poor role models, often including bullies.


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## JR 137 (Apr 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Agree regarding parents, but I know of no kid that is alone on an island in the U.S. There are a multitude of resources.


They’re genuinely not alone. But they certainty feel alone. In their mind, no one gets it, no one’s been through it, no one understands. For a certain period of time, kids don’t understand their parents and other adults have gone through what they’re going through or have seen what they’re seeing. That comes with maturity. How many times do kids say “you don’t know what it’s like!” to their parents and adults?


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’m quite sure there’s far more to her story than that.
> 
> The follow up to our fight was simple; when we came back in, he told us “if you run away from them today, you’ll run away from them every day. If you stand up to them, they’ll stop chasing you.” He was right.
> 
> ...



Sounds like your dad handled the situation as a teaching experience for you and not to simply abuse you.  I agree the Myra Hindley case is far more complex then this one incident causing her to become who she was.  It was one factor and we are all a product of many factors.  Genetics, parenting style, environment, etc.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Psychology is not so definite as the bolded statement implies. Likely that parenting style contributed, but it takes more than that to "produce" a serial killer. Was she psychopathic (that's apparently not learned)? Did she lack support elsewhere? There are other factors that go into that assessment. The same treatment that one person thrives under will crush another person, and we're not yet clear why that is.



I agree its not as definite as the bolded statement implies.  Sure not everyone or even a small percentage in this situation grow up to be serial killers.  This is a very extreme case.   But will this parenting style cause other lessor problems down the road for a child?

I remember talking about this case about 10 years ago with a uncle who happens to be an addition counselor.    He said no this probaly wont turn you into a serial killer but it going to cause you problems later on. He was telling me that bullying is the root cause of why a lot of people become drug addicts or alcoholics.


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## jobo (Apr 16, 2019)

my experience, when I was about 7, I told my dad that some boys and one in particular in my class was hitting me, my dad being a supportive  parent, hit me a lot harder than the boy and told me to sort him out, so next day when he came over and punched me, I jumped on him and splattered his face.  my dad gave me a six pence for that

that did stop him bulking me, however a number of other boys then wanted to fight me. so I had lots of fights and when those were won , the boys in the older class wanted to fight me, so lots more fights, then the boys from the school down the road wanted fights so more and more fights.

I one stage I was having to walk other kids home to stop them being bullied.

then again when I was about 14,15  I was very small and weak for my age, so I was on the wrong end of being bullied again, then suddenly I was big and very strong, my main tormentor punched me, so I spattered him, then the other hard boys wanted to fight me so lots more fights. one came up behind me, tapped me on the shoulder and as turned head butted me, I lost that fight

I got him when I was 21, and met him at a party and followed him outside,  I was even bigger by then  I didn't beat him just made him beg.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I agree its not as definite as the bolded statement implies.  Sure not everyone or even a small percentage in this situation grow up to be serial killers.  This is a very extreme case.   But will this parenting style cause other lessor problems down the road for a child?
> 
> I remember talking about this case about 10 years ago with a uncle who happens to be an addition counselor.    He said no this probaly wont turn you into a serial killer but it going to cause you problems later on. He was telling me that bullying is the root cause of why a lot of people become drug addicts or alcoholics.


THE root cause?  I may be going on a limb here, but I’d say opioid addiction, self medication for mental illness, or a host of other things are more likely root causes for addiction than bullying.   I’d also guess that bullying is less a root cause and more likely a symptom, similar to drug addiction or alcoholism.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> THE root cause?  I may be going on a limb here, but I’d say opioid addiction, self medication for mental illness, or a host of other things are more likely root causes for addiction than bullying.   I’d also guess that bullying is less a root cause and more likely a symptom, similar to drug addiction or alcoholism.


I meant it is one of the possible root causes.  Not the only one.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

jobo said:


> my experience, when I was about 7, I told my dad that some boys and one in particular in my class was hitting me, my dad being a supportive  parent, hit me a lot harder than the boy and told me to sort him out, so next day when he came over and punched me, I jumped on him and splattered his face.  my dad gave me a six pence for that
> 
> that did stop him bulking me, however a number of other boys then wanted to fight me. so I had lots of fights and when those were won , the boys in the older class wanted to fight me, so lots more fights, then the boys from the school down the road wanted fights so more and more fights.
> 
> ...


Some top notch life skills demonstrated here... if you live in a post apocalyptic badlands and your daddy’s name is Mad Max.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I meant it is one of the possible root causes.  Not the only one.


Maybe, though I think it’s way down the list, and probably more a symptom than a contributing factor.


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Psychology is not so definite as the bolded statement implies. Likely that parenting style contributed, but it takes more than that to "produce" a serial killer. Was she psychopathic (that's apparently not learned)? Did she lack support elsewhere? There are other factors that go into that assessment. The same treatment that one person thrives under will crush another person, and we're not yet clear why that is.



Why Myra Hindley was easy pickings for a psychopath who needed a female accomplice | political blonde


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Maybe, though I think it’s way down the list, and probably more a symptom than a contributing factor.


You may be correct.  I just remember my addiction counselor uncle telling me that in counseling when they got down to figuring out the root cause of the addiction it sometimes was that they felt worthless as the result of being bullied or abused as a child. So people turn to substance abuse to self medicate and numb the pain.


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## jobo (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Some top notch life skills demonstrated here... if you live in a post apocalyptic badlands and your daddy’s name is Mad Max.


it was like that  round here, causal violence  was just the way it was, 60s salford was one of the toughest cities in the country  and we lived in the posh bit , we had a garden and an in door toilet and no cockroaches.if you went down in to the slums it was way worse,  there were bomb sites every where and poverty and delapadated two up to down houses, with 7,8,9 people living in them, living a of diet of jam ( jelly) sandwiches, when I was ten and started to roam a bit, it was a real eye opener. 

. I was a happy little boy with no interesting in hurting anyone, but was surrounded by people who wanted to hurt me, I had my first fight when I was 4, I was carrying a big stick when I went out to plat by 5. and then I had a little sister to look after. saying that, when I was 9, some kid had me pinned down and was punching my lights out and my 5 yo sister smashed him over the head with a big piece of wood, so it worked both ways.

on the bright side I used to get double pay for my paper round as I was the only one who could walk round the rough estate with out being robbed


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> This isnt true.  Workplace bullying rarely approaches or progesses to harassment because it is rarely being done based on a protected base.  I can be the biggest jerk to you, play favorites, embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable.   While that might make me a despicable human, and a terrible co-worker, it isn't harassment.   I can do all of those things without even being your boss.


Yeah, I wasn't clear in that first sentence. I meant it's more likely to rise to harassment than assault. I'm not sure where the line is on the legal definition of harassment in the workplace, so I'm not sure how often it actually rises to that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I agree its not as definite as the bolded statement implies.  Sure not everyone or even a small percentage in this situation grow up to be serial killers.  This is a very extreme case.   But will this parenting style cause other lessor problems down the road for a child?
> 
> I remember talking about this case about 10 years ago with a uncle who happens to be an addition counselor.    He said no this probaly wont turn you into a serial killer but it going to cause you problems later on. He was telling me that bullying is the root cause of why a lot of people become drug addicts or alcoholics.


Even that causal statement is questionable (but appears likely, based on available evidence). That's the problem we face in psychology - there are so many variables at play, it's nearly impossible to get to a solid causal relationship. We can find two kids who seem to have had very similar backgrounds - socio-economics, parenting, schooling, etc. - and they react very differently to that same parenting. Sometimes, I think good parenting is largely figuring out which things don't affect your child badly, even though they often do others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Maybe, though I think it’s way down the list, and probably more a symptom than a contributing factor.


I don't understand that statement, Steve. If someone is bullied, and later develops an addiction, how is the bullying a symptom of their addiction?


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't understand that statement, Steve. If someone is bullied, and later develops an addiction, how is the bullying a symptom of their addiction?


Sorry . I meant bullying and addiction are both likely symptoms of somethjng else.


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## Buka (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> This isnt true.  Workplace bullying rarely approaches or progesses to harassment because it is rarely being done based on a protected base.  I can be the biggest jerk to you, play favorites, embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable.   While that might make me a despicable human, and a terrible co-worker, it isn't harassment.   I can do all of those things without even being your boss.



There must be a regional difference between where you are and where I grew up (Boston) or maybe you're talking about jobs that have very few employees - but if a worker "_embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable" _they might get away with it once....maybe, but if repeated they would collecting unemployment so fast their heads would spin. 

Tell you what though. Any place I've ever worked if we saw that behavior - someone embarrassing someone and making their life miserable - oh, man, we'd eat them alive. I'm not referring to good natured teasing, either. And to me, what you just described is serious bullying. Can't think of any place I've ever worked where that would be tolerated either by the administration, but especially by the workers.


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

Here Is Why We Need To Talk About Bullying In The Work Place


Buka said:


> There must be a regional difference between where you are and where I grew up (Boston) or maybe you're talking about jobs that have very few employees - but if a worker "_embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable" _they might get away with it once....maybe, but if repeated they would collecting unemployment so fast their heads would spin.
> 
> Tell you what though. Any place I've ever worked if we saw that behavior - someone embarrassing someone and making their life miserable - oh, man, we'd eat them alive. I'm not referring to good natured teasing, either. And to me, what you just described is serious bullying. Can't think of any place I've ever worked where that would be tolerated either by the administration, but especially by the workers.


Totally agree that it’s workplace bullying.  I’m not nearly as confident as you that it leads so directly to termination of employment.  In fact, I’m pretty confident it is pervasive and often without any significant consequence.  

I would also guess, though this is just speculation, that bullying is less likely to occur in a place with just a few employees.  I would think it’s far more common in a large organization.


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## dvcochran (Apr 16, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> They’re genuinely not alone. But they certainty feel alone. In their mind, no one gets it, no one’s been through it, no one understands. For a certain period of time, kids don’t understand their parents and other adults have gone through what they’re going through or have seen what they’re seeing. That comes with maturity. How many times do kids say “you don’t know what it’s like!” to their parents and adults?


I am a youth mentor at our church. I have counselled some girls but mostly young men. I will meet with kids at the parents request but my gig is to be a person that kids will come to on their own. I hear the "you don't understand" line quite often so I try to get them to explain what I don't understand. Say it out loud. This is usually a good medium to help them understand the mountain they think is in front of them is more of a hill, or at least has multiple paths to get over. People for the most part are much more resilient than they think and need some direction or motivation. Helping people understand that the easy path is usually not very rewarding is huge.


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## dvcochran (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Sure.  I agree.  Some better than others . though i will also say that when a kid commits suicide following bukkyjng, they probably don't feel well supported by the adults in their lives.
> 
> Some were suggesting kids should learn to deal with bullying on their own.


I disagree. What I heard is encouraging kids interact with others. Even the youthful fights several talked about forced them to interact. It doesn't have to be physical at all and I get that is hard for some. Just talking to someone new can be enlightening and open up new avenues, making the whole process easier.


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## dvcochran (Apr 16, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> So do you think the numbers are not correct?  What definition are u not agreeing with?


Having not seen the numbers or where they were collated from I have no idea. That is my point. Do you automatically believe every political ad you see? I hope not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Sorry . I meant bullying and addiction are both likely symptoms of somethjng else.


I'd agree with that. With the tangled skein that is causality in psychological areas, they're probably also partly causal to each other in a significant number of cases (though obviously not at the same time).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Buka said:


> There must be a regional difference between where you are and where I grew up (Boston) or maybe you're talking about jobs that have very few employees - but if a worker "_embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable" _they might get away with it once....maybe, but if repeated they would collecting unemployment so fast their heads would spin.
> 
> Tell you what though. Any place I've ever worked if we saw that behavior - someone embarrassing someone and making their life miserable - oh, man, we'd eat them alive. I'm not referring to good natured teasing, either. And to me, what you just described is serious bullying. Can't think of any place I've ever worked where that would be tolerated either by the administration, but especially by the workers.


That does happen. I've even (while training managers) had to talk to managers who seemed to think it was appropriate. Baffles the hell outta me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Having not seen the numbers or where they were collated from I have no idea. That is my point. Do you automatically believe every political ad you see? I hope not.


And when we get closer to psychology, numbers are as easily manipulated as with politics.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Here Is Why We Need To Talk About Bullying In The Work Place
> 
> Totally agree that it’s workplace bullying.  I’m not nearly as confident as you that it leads so directly to termination of employment.  In fact, I’m pretty confident it is pervasive and often without any significant consequence.
> 
> I would also guess, though this is just speculation, that bullying is less likely to occur in a place with just a few employees.  I would think it’s far more common in a large organization.


I don't see it as pervasive, but I do think it's common enough. I've seen it more often in large organizations, though it's more without repercussions in a small organization (when the offender is top of the totem).


----------



## Steve (Apr 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't see it as pervasive, but I do think it's common enough. I've seen it more often in large organizations, though it's more without repercussions in a small organization (when the offender is top of the totem).


Look at the stats.  Common or pervasive.  Call it what you will.  It happens a lot.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> And when we get closer to psychology, numbers are as easily manipulated as with politics.



Yes these stats can be easily manipulated as with all stats.  But even if it is off by 50% its still pretty troubling.  If the study is to be believed approx 30,000 people commit suicide in the USA each year. And if half are related to bullying that is 15,000 suicides a year.  Ok say the study is off by 50% that is still 7500 body bags a year

Teenage Bullying and Suicide: According to the World Health Organization (WHO) nearly a million people worldwide commit suicide each year. Out of that number, about *30,000* people reportedly kill themselves each year in the United States.

Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
2 Landmark studies in Britain and the United States found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 17, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Yes these stats can be easily manipulated as with all stats.  But even if it is off by 50% its still pretty troubling.  If the study is to be believed approx 30,000 people commit suicide in the USA each year. And if half are related to bullying that is 15,000 suicides a year.  Ok say the study is off by 50% that is still 7500 body bags a year
> 
> Teenage Bullying and Suicide: According to the World Health Organization (WHO) nearly a million people worldwide commit suicide each year. Out of that number, about *30,000* people reportedly kill themselves each year in the United States.
> 
> ...


I agree it's troubling (it's troubling without suicide involvement). Just for intellectual purposes, here's the problem with numbers like these: what qualifies as "related"? If someone is bullied at some point (I'd assume proximate to death) and commits suicide, are the two related? There's definitely a correlation, but is the suicide really related to the bullying? We can't know. Logically (especially for those of us who endured significant bullying), many of them are but we really can't know. And among folks who want to help, there's a tendency (extension of confirmation bias) to find a stronger relationship than exists.

In case my opening comments in this post aren't clear, I think there's probably a strong and relationship between persistent bullying and suicidal tendencies and attempts (different things, the latter far more likely to result in death). I just don't trust numbers like this.


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## Steve (Apr 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't see it as pervasive, but I do think it's common enough. I've seen it more often in large organizations, though it's more without repercussions in a small organization (when the offender is top of the totem).


The more I think about this, I have to ask what you would consider to be pervasive?   I mean, what is your threshold?   According to a study done in 2008, 3 out of 4 employees have been affected by worjplace bullying, 47% have been bullied directly, and 27% of them working the previous 12 months.  That seems to me to be pervasive.   It also doesn't suggest that everyone learns conflict resolution on the playground, and perhaps a more intentional approach should be encouraged.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I agree it's troubling (it's troubling without suicide involvement). Just for intellectual purposes, here's the problem with numbers like these: what qualifies as "related"? If someone is bullied at some point (I'd assume proximate to death) and commits suicide, are the two related? There's definitely a correlation, but is the suicide really related to the bullying? We can't know. Logically (especially for those of us who endured significant bullying), many of them are but we really can't know. And among folks who want to help, there's a tendency (extension of confirmation bias) to find a stronger relationship than exists.
> 
> In case my opening comments in this post aren't clear, I think there's probably a strong and relationship between persistent bullying and suicidal tendencies and attempts (different things, the latter far more likely to result in death). I just don't trust numbers like this.



Agree there is a relationship between persistent bullying and suicidal tendencies and attempts.  We just don't know how accurate the stats mentioned above are at this time.  Also I imagine their can be more than on factor that contributes to a persons suicide. I just googled the top reasons for suicide.  Mental illness, addition, Social Isolation / Loneliness, Traumatic Experience, Unemployment, Bullying, Relationship problems.

If your being bullied im sure a lot of these other factors come into play as well.  Victims of bullying sometimes are also suffering from mental illnesses that make it more difficult for them to stand up for themselves.  If your being bullied your most likely also have Social Isolation / Loneliness as well.  Its a complicated issue.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 17, 2019)

Steve said:


> The more I think about this, I have to ask what you would consider to be pervasive?   I mean, what is your threshold?   According to a study done in 2008, 3 out of 4 employees have been affected by worjplace bullying, 47% have been bullied directly, and 27% of them working the previous 12 months.  That seems to me to be pervasive.   It also doesn't suggest that everyone learns conflict resolution on the playground, and perhaps a more intentional approach should be encouraged.


I think those numbers are as questionable as any others discussed in this thread. How is "workplace bullying" defined? And what is "affected"? And what's the population? In the average white-collar organization, I'd consider those numbers outliers...if we were using any definition of "bullying" and "affected" I'd consider appropriate.

So, if half of all workers really were affected by bullying, I'd say that would definitely be pervasive. But I've seen so little of it "in the wild" - in all my visits to literally hundreds of companies - that I find those numbers highly doubtful.


----------



## Steve (Apr 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think those numbers are as questionable as any others discussed in this thread. How is "workplace bullying" defined? And what is "affected"? And what's the population? In the average white-collar organization, I'd consider those numbers outliers...if we were using any definition of "bullying" and "affected" I'd consider appropriate.
> 
> So, if half of all workers really were affected by bullying, I'd say that would definitely be pervasive. But I've seen so little of it "in the wild" - in all my visits to literally hundreds of companies - that I find those numbers highly doubtful.


If you read the study mentioned in the article in the link I posted, the answers to your questions are right there.  Regarding seeing it in the wild, I truly don't see how that's possible.  Is it possible that you dobt see it because you aren't looking?  What I mean is, I don't know what you do when you are training.   Do you interview employees?  Do you talk to the hr folks about complaints?  I'm just suggesting it's possible that if you are in and out of a business in a week or two, you are not really seeing everything that's going on.   

This is also a topic that is frequently discussed in thr greater training and leadership development community, both private sector and public.  Not to mention in EEOC and LR/ER.  At the risk of overstating this, questioning the pervasiveness of workplace bullying is like being a climate change denier.   What I mean by this is, while i think there is a lot of room for discussion , we should be past the point of agreeing it's a serious issue.


----------



## Buka (Apr 17, 2019)

Steve said:


> Here Is Why We Need To Talk About Bullying In The Work Place
> 
> Totally agree that it’s workplace bullying.  I’m not nearly as confident as you that it leads so directly to termination of employment.  In fact, I’m pretty confident it is pervasive and often without any significant consequence.
> 
> I would also guess, though this is just speculation, that bullying is less likely to occur in a place with just a few employees.  I would think it’s far more common in a large organization.



You know what's weird to me, Steve?  I come from Massachusetts, which is a very liberal state. But I'm now in Hawaii, which is SO liberal it makes Massachusetts look like 1950's Texas.

But, and this is a huge, and intriguingly odd but to me - political correctness does not really exist here. People, in the workplace, in public, anywhere over here, say things that would get your butt fired in Boston lickety split. Nobody really cares. I always have to keep an eye on myself because I have a big mouth. But here, oh man, people say just about anything. People in authority, too. And in mixed company. I find it refreshing and amusing, but it sure is odd compared to what I'm used to.


----------



## Steve (Apr 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> You know what's weird to me, Steve?  I come from Massachusetts, which is a very liberal state. But I'm now in Hawaii, which is SO liberal it makes Massachusetts look like 1950's Texas.
> 
> But, and this is a huge, and intriguingly odd but to me - political correctness does not really exist here. People, in the workplace, in public, anywhere over here, say things that would get your butt fired in Boston lickety split. Nobody really cares. I always have to keep an eye on myself because I have a big mouth. But here, oh man, people say just about anything. People in authority, too. And in mixed company. I find it refreshing and amusing, but it sure is odd compared to what I'm used to.


I think that's cool.  But I don't get where you're headed.  Are you suggesting workplace bullying is just people being too PC?


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## Gweilo (Apr 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> You know what's weird to me, Steve?  I come from Massachusetts, which is a very liberal state. But I'm now in Hawaii, which is SO liberal it makes Massachusetts look like 1950's Texas.
> 
> But, and this is a huge, and intriguingly odd but to me - political correctness does not really exist here. People, in the workplace, in public, anywhere over here, say things that would get your butt fired in Boston lickety split. Nobody really cares. I always have to keep an eye on myself because I have a big mouth. But here, oh man, people say just about anything. People in authority, too. And in mixed company. I find it refreshing and amusing, but it sure is odd compared to what I'm used to.


I must agree, although I am not a role model of any sorts, to me the political correctness has gone a bit too far, I am not talking about making someone else's life a misery, or constant abuse, but we used to have a saying in the uk, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me, if we go down the wrap them in cotton wool route, are we not in the same boat as over use of anti biotic or anti bacterial wipes for everything,  are we creating more diverse problems later down the road.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 17, 2019)

Steve said:


> If you read the study mentioned in the article in the link I posted, the answers to your questions are right there.  Regarding seeing it in the wild, I truly don't see how that's possible.  Is it possible that you dobt see it because you aren't looking?  What I mean is, I don't know what you do when you are training.   Do you interview employees?  Do you talk to the hr folks about complaints?  I'm just suggesting it's possible that if you are in and out of a business in a week or two, you are not really seeing everything that's going on.
> 
> This is also a topic that is frequently discussed in thr greater training and leadership development community, both private sector and public.  Not to mention in EEOC and LR/ER.  At the risk of overstating this, questioning the pervasiveness of workplace bullying is like being a climate change denier.   What I mean by this is, while i think there is a lot of room for discussion , we should be past the point of agreeing it's a serious issue.


I never said it wasn't a serious issue. What I was trying to say is what I'd define as bullying is probably not affecting (as I'd define that term) nearly 50% of workers across the board. The difference might be entirely in those definitions.

I'll go back and look at the article later, to see how it addresses those questions I mentioned.

EDIT: And to clarify, when I'm consulting, I'm usually working at a company off and on (sometimes more on than off) for anywhere from 12 weeks to 2 years.


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## Buka (Apr 17, 2019)

Steve said:


> I think that's cool.  But I don't get where you're headed.  Are you suggesting workplace bullying is just people being too PC?



Oh no, not at all. I wasn't really headed anywhere, just yapping. I don't really have any first hand experience with "workplace" bullying. Never really saw it in Boston, the PC police were always on guard. And had I seen any, I would have played the anti bullying card anyway.

And out here, people are chill. Although a few days ago got a call for an "irate passenger" which is radio code for A-hole. It was a fat, ugly lawyer from San Fran, who you could just tell was bullied growing up, and now did the same to everyone he met only in a legal sense. He was bullying everyone he dealt with, using loud, foul language and dismissive gestures, and his wife was informing a gate attendant that they had five current lawsuits going and one more wasn't a problem. 

If there ever was a couple who should be parachuting out of a plane, they were it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 17, 2019)

Steve said:


> If you read the study mentioned in the article in the link I posted, the answers to your questions are right there.  Regarding seeing it in the wild, I truly don't see how that's possible.  Is it possible that you dobt see it because you aren't looking?  What I mean is, I don't know what you do when you are training.   Do you interview employees?  Do you talk to the hr folks about complaints?  I'm just suggesting it's possible that if you are in and out of a business in a week or two, you are not really seeing everything that's going on.
> 
> This is also a topic that is frequently discussed in thr greater training and leadership development community, both private sector and public.  Not to mention in EEOC and LR/ER.  At the risk of overstating this, questioning the pervasiveness of workplace bullying is like being a climate change denier.   What I mean by this is, while i think there is a lot of room for discussion , we should be past the point of agreeing it's a serious issue.


Okay, I read through the article. I saw a number of definitions of bullying, but I'm unclear which - if any - were provided to the participants in the survey. One of the definitions used ('The Trade Union Congress (TUC) states that "usually if a person genuinely feels they are being singled out for unfair treatment by a boss or colleague they are _probably_ being bullied".') creates a pretty subjective measure, because of the use of "unfair". This is where surveys of bullying (and bad bosses, and other workplace issues with negative connotations) have a weakness.

I'm also unclear on the numbers around impact on job/health. I can't tell (I didn't see the questions provided) whether that was a response about what impact bullying _could _have, or about the impact it _has had_ for that person. And even if we knew the questions, we're still asking someone to guess (can't really measure it, so it's all impressions) whether the bullying had an adverse effect on their work. If bullying (as I'd define it) happened around me, it'd probably have an adverse effect on my work (though I don't know how I could establish that as fact), so if half are experiencing bullying, it seems likely that same half is suffering some work (and health) degradation.

Later numbers say that 36% of people surveyed have left their jobs over bullying. That has to be a lifetime question, and leads right back to the question of definition. And there's likely some skewing by outliers - bad companies where lots of bullying happens, and everyone below a certain level experiences it nearly daily.

To be clear, I know folks who were bullied at work. Some close to me, some clients, and some I've learned of in training sessions. But these numbers, if accurate (for the definition I'd use) would imply that it's in nearly every office, nearly every day, on average. I see nothing in my work, nor in discussions with others, that supports that. That leads me to believe I'm either misreading the numbers, or the way they've been used in the article is a misread of them.

Still, it's a real problem, and needs to be addressed. I just don't think over-stating the problem helps us get there. It causes some loss of credibility when trying to convince people action is needed.


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## Steve (Apr 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I read through the article. I saw a number of definitions of bullying, but I'm unclear which - if any - were provided to the participants in the survey. One of the definitions used ('The Trade Union Congress (TUC) states that "usually if a person genuinely feels they are being singled out for unfair treatment by a boss or colleague they are _probably_ being bullied".') creates a pretty subjective measure, because of the use of "unfair". This is where surveys of bullying (and bad bosses, and other workplace issues with negative connotations) have a weakness.
> 
> I'm also unclear on the numbers around impact on job/health. I can't tell (I didn't see the questions provided) whether that was a response about what impact bullying _could _have, or about the impact it _has had_ for that person. And even if we knew the questions, we're still asking someone to guess (can't really measure it, so it's all impressions) whether the bullying had an adverse effect on their work. If bullying (as I'd define it) happened around me, it'd probably have an adverse effect on my work (though I don't know how I could establish that as fact), so if half are experiencing bullying, it seems likely that same half is suffering some work (and health) degradation.
> 
> ...


There are several studies linked to in the article.   Each defines the terms.  

You're suggesting the issue is being overstated, but it really seems like you've pre-decided that and are not being objective.


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## dvcochran (Apr 17, 2019)

@Chrisinmd , I have went back and read many of the post on this thread. I'm wondering if you found what you were looking for in your original post?


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 17, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I was raised in an earlier age, and things were less well understood I think.  My solution with a persistent bully was to pick up a brick and beat him in the head until I was pulled off of him.  I had to do it twice.  The third time he bullied me, I told him that even though he could beat me up, I would never stop beating his head in with a brick or a stick or a rock, I'd do it every time I saw his back to me for the rest of his life.  He decided I was too crazy to deal with.  Not saying that was the best possible solution, but I was tired of taking beatings.



The brick method seems like a good way to get charged with Aggravated Assault.  Plus don't you have to have a brick available at all times you may run into him?  Not sure I would want to be carrying a brick around for 4 year of high school.

Good idea though


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 17, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> @Chrisinmd , I have went back and read many of the post on this thread. I'm wondering if you found what you were looking for in your original post?



Seems to be most peoples answer is it just depends on the situation.  Its hard to know for sure. Good responses.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 18, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> The brick method seems like a good way to get charged with Aggravated Assault.  Plus don't you have to have a brick available at all times you may run into him?  Not sure I would want to be carrying a brick around for 4 year of high school.
> 
> Good idea though


 
Earlier times, earlier methods. There were no police in my town of 400. We would not have called them if there was. Bricks and all manner of blunt objects littered the alleys and vacant lots of my childhood homes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2019)

Steve said:


> There are several studies linked to in the article.   Each defines the terms.
> 
> You're suggesting the issue is being overstated, but it really seems like you've pre-decided that and are not being objective.


I'll need to go back and look at the links.

I think the numbers are overstated (again, going by how I'd define the term - if they're using a different definition, the numbers could be reasonable). But overstating numbers happens, even with an honest attempt to avoid it. Sometimes it's just a statistical problem, sometimes it's a reporting issue, etc.

I don't think anyone can help but bring their own experience into something like this. If the numbers for any study seem very off from related experience, it brings up reasonable questions about why. Among the possibilities are some I've mentioned (related to how the numbers are gathered) and some you've mentioned (my experience not matching others'). I think I mentioned this in a prior post (but maybe not), but one possible inflator (that doesn't really make the numbers overstated, but makes them misleading, IMO) would be if the questions are lifetime questions. I'd agree a large number of people experience bullying _at some point_ in their work career. But if I experience it a few times many years ago, then that's a very different situation from you experiencing it daily for months or years (as some do).


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## Bruce7 (Apr 18, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?  I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at.  I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good.  I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch.  I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.
> 
> Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with.  He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them.  So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical.  But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.
> 
> ...



There is a lot of truth to what you are saying, but I don't total agree.
Age and your ability to fight are important factors.
If you are a grown up , your boss or the law should fix the bulling problem.

As a child I was small and moved around alot so I got bullied a lot.
For me I decided in first grade, I would not be bullied, I did not care how bad I got hurt.
For me  punching the bully in the face and keep hitting until teacher pulls you apart worked for me
because you at least hurt them.
*Most* bullies don't like getting hurt, so if you can hurt them, it is not worth it to keep bullying you.
One drawback to my plan, my parents sent me to military school when I became a teenager.
Oddly enough we soldem  got into fights. They keep us so busy, who had the time or energy to fight.


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## dvcochran (Apr 18, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'll need to go back and look at the links.
> 
> I think the numbers are overstated (again, going by how I'd define the term - if they're using a different definition, the numbers could be reasonable). But overstating numbers happens, even with an honest attempt to avoid it. Sometimes it's just a statistical problem, sometimes it's a reporting issue, etc.
> 
> I don't think anyone can help but bring their own experience into something like this. If the numbers for any study seem very off from related experience, it brings up reasonable questions about why. Among the possibilities are some I've mentioned (related to how the numbers are gathered) and some you've mentioned (my experience not matching others'). I think I mentioned this in a prior post (but maybe not), but one possible inflator (that doesn't really make the numbers overstated, but makes them misleading, IMO) would be if the questions are lifetime questions. I'd agree a large number of people experience bullying _at some point_ in their work career. But if I experience it a few times many years ago, then that's a very different situation from you experiencing it daily for months or years (as some do).


I guess it is unavoidable and can be gleaned from most anything we do in life but damn I have being a statistic.


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## Steve (Apr 18, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'll need to go back and look at the links.
> 
> I think the numbers are overstated (again, going by how I'd define the term - if they're using a different definition, the numbers could be reasonable). But overstating numbers happens, even with an honest attempt to avoid it. Sometimes it's just a statistical problem, sometimes it's a reporting issue, etc.
> 
> I don't think anyone can help but bring their own experience into something like this. If the numbers for any study seem very off from related experience, it brings up reasonable questions about why. Among the possibilities are some I've mentioned (related to how the numbers are gathered) and some you've mentioned (my experience not matching others'). I think I mentioned this in a prior post (but maybe not), but one possible inflator (that doesn't really make the numbers overstated, but makes them misleading, IMO) would be if the questions are lifetime questions. I'd agree a large number of people experience bullying _at some point_ in their work career. But if I experience it a few times many years ago, then that's a very different situation from you experiencing it daily for months or years (as some do).


I really think you're overestimating yiur ubdersrandknh of an organizations culture based on your brief interactions with some cross section of the employees.   The stats are quite consistent from study to study, in the USA, the UK, and Australia.   As with self defense and other areas, you're making confident declarations that are unsupported by evidence.  It's a concerning pattern .  

To he clear, where your experience and evidence is consistent, great.  Where they are inconsistent, you have to consider which is more reliable .  You often default to your experience and dismiss evidence both before considering or even reading the evidence.

For what its worth, my experience is consistent with the evidence in this case.  I'm happy to consider alternative evidence, if you care to share it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2019)

Steve said:


> I really think you're overestimating yiur ubdersrandknh of an organizations culture based on your brief interactions with some cross section of the employees.   The stats are quite consistent from study to study, in the USA, the UK, and Australia.   As with self defense and other areas, you're making confident declarations that are unsupported by evidence.  It's a concerning pattern .
> 
> To he clear, where your experience and evidence is consistent, great.  Where they are inconsistent, you have to consider which is more reliable .  You often default to your experience and dismiss evidence both before considering or even reading the evidence.
> 
> For what its worth, my experience is consistent with the evidence in this case.  I'm happy to consider alternative evidence, if you care to share it.


I thought I'd made it clear that I consider it likely the difference is in the definition and/or timeline. The stats make sense if I assume the question asked was "have you ever experienced workplace bullying" - in fact, I'd consider those numbers low on that timeline. I could also see those numbers making sense with a less restrictive definition than the one in my mind.


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## Chrisinmd (Apr 18, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Earlier times, earlier methods. There were no police in my town of 400. We would not have called them if there was. Bricks and all manner of blunt objects littered the alleys and vacant lots of my childhood homes.



I grew up in a small town of 20,000 in the Midwest.  Kind of the same situation just to a lessor extent.  Could have called the police but then you get labeled a snitch and may have made matters worse.


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## Steve (Apr 18, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I thought I'd made it clear that I consider it likely the difference is in the definition and/or timeline. The stats make sense if I assume the question asked was "have you ever experienced workplace bullying" - in fact, I'd consider those numbers low on that timeline. I could also see those numbers making sense with a less restrictive definition than the one in my mind.


Okay, sooooo... Then if you think those numbers might be low, we can agree that it is.... What's the word???   Pervasive maybe?  

Can you see how I might grow frustrated at your habit of taking internally inconsistent positions and arguing both sides of an issue simultaneously?


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2019)

@Steve, is there workplace bullying at your workplace?


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## Steve (Apr 18, 2019)

Buka said:


> @Steve, is there workplace bullying at your workplace?


Sure.  Of course.  Though I think it happens in pockets.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2019)

Steve said:


> Sure.  Of course.  Though I think it happens in pockets.



By "happens in pockets" you mean hidden? And what kind of bullying?

I'm not looking to argue or nitpick, I'm truly curious about this. Does it happen in your presence, or do you hear about it or somthing?


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## Steve (Apr 18, 2019)

Buka said:


> By "happens in pockets" you mean hidden? And what kind of bullying?
> 
> I'm not looking to argue or nitpick, I'm truly curious about this. Does it happen in your presence, or do you hear about it or somthing?


I can talk to you offline, if you're looking for specifics.   I don't get the impression youre arguing, but I'm also not going to sling mud.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2019)

Steve said:


> Okay, sooooo... Then if you think those numbers might be low, we can agree that it is.... What's the word???   Pervasive maybe?
> 
> Can you see how I might grow frustrated at your habit of taking internally inconsistent positions and arguing both sides of an issue simultaneously?


You're frustrated because you're reacting to part of each post, Steve. My posts have been consistent about the fact that the numbers seem high...if they're using the same definitions I'd use.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2019)

Offline would be fine.


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## Steve (Apr 18, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You're frustrated because you're reacting to part of each post, Steve. My posts have been consistent about the fact that the numbers seem high...if they're using the same definitions I'd use.


I'm actually frustrated precisely because I'm considering the totality of your posts amd not parsing them out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2019)

Steve said:


> I'm actually frustrated precisely because I'm considering the totality of your posts amd not parsing them out.


Then I'm not sure why you don't see them as consistent, Steve. I started out saying that the numbers seemed high, and said that might be due to a difference in definition. Then, when I repeated that (in different wording) later, you referred to it as internal inconsistency. I'm being consistent, just allowing that my definition might not be consistent with what was used by the studies and/or participants. Heck, it's possible most people have a different definition than I do - I don't recall having many discussions at a depth that would have brought up the definition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2019)

Steve said:


> I'm actually frustrated precisely because I'm considering the totality of your posts amd not parsing them out.


Another thought, and something I'd think you'd have picked up by now, but perhaps you haven't. In discussions, I'm perfectly okay with turning out to be wrong, so I often share my thoughts more or less as they occur. If my opinion evolves in the discussion, so do my comments. (At this point, I've not yet seen anything to change my opinion here, but I haven't yet gone back to look at the individual studies, so that could occur.) In this case, there's something else at play - I tend to include where I already see my position could change, and allow for that. I think it's an unconscious attempt to reduce conflict to keep discussions meaningful. In any case, it's one of the ways I acknowledge early in discussion when I see room for disagreement with my own position.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2019)

Okay, I dug through the links in the article. I didn't immediately see links to any of the studies (one link to a union site's page about bullying, one HR-oriented guide to developing related policies, a link to what appears to be a formal book review, one link that seemed to be an actual study I can't find in a library, and other articles that discuss the issue).

One of the linked articles actually comments on my primary point, though with a different purpose:


> Estimates of the actual prevalence of workplace bullying in Britain vary due to the difficulties in clearly defining an experience that is shaped by individual perceptions, and the challenges of measuring it. As Dix et al (2012) observe, bullying and harassment “represent aspects of negative behaviours that may not be easily labelled and thus may not be transparently reported”. There is therefore no single benchmark for assessing the incidence of workplace bullying. Instead, the literature provides a wide range of measures and accounts of how much bullying is taking place, over a range of time periods. However, representative time series surveys of workplaces, employees and health and safety representatives all indicate that the problem has been growing.
> 
> Source: http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/e/...-and-ill-treatment-in-Britains-workplaces.pdf



If I missed a link to an actual study, help me out. I thought I clicked on every link in the article, but maybe I missed some. I checked some of the other sources I came across when searching for the linked study article - all with the same first author - but none provided an obvious reference to prevalence


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## Steve (Apr 19, 2019)

Doublepost


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## Steve (Apr 19, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I dug through the links in the article. I didn't immediately see links to any of the studies (one link to a union site's page about bullying, one HR-oriented guide to developing related policies, a link to what appears to be a formal book review, one link that seemed to be an actual study I can't find in a library, and other articles that discuss the issue).
> 
> One of the linked articles actually comments on my primary point, though with a different purpose:
> 
> ...


How about sharing what you think about what you've read.  I mean, did you just single-mindedly look for something labeled "study" or did you read any of the source material? 

Or shoot.  Just google workplace bullying and do some research of your own.  There is a body of research going back on this since at least the late 90's.   You post something, I promise to read it and will gladly discuss it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2019)

Steve said:


> How about sharing what you think about what you've read.  I mean, did you just single-mindedly look for something labeled "study" or did you read any of the source material?
> 
> Or shoot.  Just google workplace bullying and do some research of your own.  There is a body of research going back on this since at least the late 90's.   You post something, I promise to read it and will gladly discuss it.


As I said, I clicked on each link and looked to see what it was. I listed what most were in the first paragraph. One appeared to be a study, but I couldn't find it in the online library I have access to (though I did find several others by the same lead/author). If there was another link in there to an actual study published in a journal, I entirely missed it.

Remember that the reason you suggested I click on the links was I was questioning what definition was used in the study that led to the % numbers listed in the article. I wasn't able to find any link that led to that information.

There was a good deal of interesting information in the links, though.

A google search of other information would probably get me to some useful numbers, but probably wouldn't get me to the source of the numbers we've been discussing, since I don't know where they came from. If I come across something salient, with some numbers (good or bad), I'll post it up for discussion.

One thing I did come across in one of the studies I looked at provided a similar number, but with some clarity. It said about half of all workers had received or witnessed bullying in the workplace. That seems perhaps reasonable (though a bit low, perhaps) when including the incidence of witnessing. I'd have thought that total would be higher (multiple witnesses to one instance of bullying), but perhaps there's enough overlap (people who both received and witnessed) in that situation, that the about half is about right.


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2019)

Let me ask you guys/gals something. For those of you with the experience and skills necessary - if you happen upon bullying.....do you intervene? 

Not judging, just curious.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2019)

Buka said:


> Let me ask you guys/gals something. For those of you with the experience and skills necessary - if you happen upon bullying.....do you intervene?
> 
> Not judging, just curious.


As with most things, it somewhat depends. But normally, yes. If a customer is bullying a worker, I'll normally speak up, unless the worker seems to have things well in hand. On the few occasions I've seen a manager bully a worker in front of me (all were as a customer), I've always spoken up - both against the bullying and against the unprofessionalism in front of a customer. When I was young, I always stepped in when other kids were bullied. I'm not around kids much now to have a chance to see that bullying. I can think of some situations where I saw minor bullying in the workplace where I was working, and I think I addressed most of those by notifying managers who I trusted. I can't think of any of those where I intervened in the moment, but I also can't think of any of those where the bullying was obvious and clear enough to do so.

EDIT: I should add that I'm a slow fuse on this in most cases. Often, in retrospect, I feel like I ought to have stepped in earlier.


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