# How do you Handle the New "Tough" Guys or Crazies?



## Danjo (Jan 3, 2009)

Every so often we get someone coming in that wants to punch the crap out of people without any restraint. They love to go against the lower belts and wail away. Now I'm not talking about "challenge matches" etc., but guys who sign up for class and just like to hurt people.

We've had two in recent memory at our school. One is an older guy that never seemed to get the idea that we were there to train and that there wasn't anything riding on the outcome of a regular sparring session. He loved to throw hard punches and kicks and tackle people into the metal chairs. Then when one of us black belts would spar with him and give him what he gave us, he'd claim that he'd run out of gas after about 30 seconds of being on the receiving end. I always tell the new guys or lower belts that they can set the pace and amount of force and I'll match myself to them. I'm always amused at the guys who want to come in and throw hard and fast punches and kicks after we've gone back and forth and they get it in their heads that I'm not much of a threat. That's when I say, "Oh you want to crank up the pace?" Then I go moderately hard for about five to ten seconds. That tends to take the starch out of them.

The other one really took the cake. Let's call him "Nutbag" because he claimed that he was a black belt in TKD among other things, and he didn't seem to know _anything_. He didn't know what a forward stance was, and he seemed to only have one type of kick that he threw poorly. (When I showed him a forward stance, he said that they used to call them "Jungle Stances"). He had no typical black belt etiquette, etc. Anyways, this guy really liked to go after people sparring. Never stopped when "break" was called. Tackled people after the round was over (and broke a door doing this one night) and when he would go against anyone a lot better than him, would "get winded" after 30 seconds and have to sit down. This guy finally left when John Bishop told him to go home if he was too tired to continue and to make sure to bring his black belt certificate next time. He left in a huff saying that he'd been "disrespected." ---Yawn---

So what stories do you guys have? How do/did you handle it?


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## jarrod (Jan 3, 2009)

usually we just tell people they don't have enough control to work with the lower ranks, so they have to spar the advanced guys until they learn it.  so far that has weeded all of them out.  i've had a couple weirdos here & there, but it sounds like you had a couple cartoon characters!  i've also got no problem telling someone to leave the gym, either.  i think i probably would if somebody tackles someone into metal chairs after break was called.  

jf


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## Danjo (Jan 3, 2009)

jarrod said:


> usually we just tell people they don't have enough control to work with the lower ranks, so they have to spar the advanced guys until they learn it. so far that has weeded all of them out. i've had a couple weirdos here & there, but it sounds like you had a couple cartoon characters! i've also got no problem telling someone to leave the gym, either. i think i probably would if somebody tackles someone into metal chairs after break was called.
> 
> jf


 
Yeah, that guy said it was an accident and hasn't done it since, but you have to wonder.


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## mook jong man (Jan 3, 2009)

If you will excuse me joining in I'm not a Kempo man , but a Wing Chun man. I know exactly the type of people you are talking about and they don't tend to last very long .

 I remember once I was teaching and there was a guy who had recently joined up I hadn't taught him before but apparently he claimed he was a Ju Jitsu blackbelt . He was in grade 1 , so I got him and the rest of the grade ones to do some light hand sparring just using a few specific techniques . 

After awhile I look over and he's trying to bend somebodies fingers back , I said what are you doing mate did you come here to learn Wing Chun or do Ju Jitsu  ,your only supposed to be doing pak sau or tan sau and have some control .

 He tried to do it a couple more times to other people all of whom were beginners. So I thought I will join in the sparring as I often did , we rotated partners and it was his turn to come to me . 

He started getting frustrated that he couldn't get through my defences so he grabbed two of my fingers and tried to break them  , so I immediately punched him straight in the mouth .

He looked stunned and started bleeding from the mouth I didn't give him full power just enough to make him let go . It was totally by reflex , he wasn't trying to do a submission , he was trying to break my fingers . Anyway he went over to his girlfriend got his bag and left and never came back .
 People like that are bullys and get their kicks from trying out their stuff on people they are pretty sure they can beat , and don't like to mix it up with people they think might kick their **** .

 I think the best way to handle them is the way you are doing it , or maybe put them with some of your more senior people so they can see what ever they dish out they are going to get back with interest .


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## jarrod (Jan 3, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Yeah, that guy said it was an accident and hasn't done it since, but you have to wonder.


 

"yeah i'm just such a wild crazy street fighter, i'm not used to your kung fu rules!"  lol

jf


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## Danjo (Jan 3, 2009)

jarrod said:


> "yeah i'm just such a wild crazy street fighter, i'm not used to your kung fu rules!" lol
> 
> jf


 
LOL. "_Jungle_ Fighter", not Street fighter.


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## jarrod (Jan 3, 2009)

my mistake!

jungle style could have all kinds of awesome sounding technique names like "python fist" or "fish that swims up your peehole kick"!

jf


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## hkfuie (Jan 3, 2009)

LOL!  Jungle fighter.  Off topic, but anyone seen "Tropic Thunder?"  

Back on topic...in TKD some people call walking stance "chungle sogi"  I can see where he might get "jungle stance" outta that.

Mostly I have only had big talkers, not big fighters. 

One time I had a guy tell me he  had BB's in 20 styles.  So I started asking him about the styles.  He mentioned Tai Chi, so I asked, what style of Tai Chi?  He said "empty hand."


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## jarrod (Jan 3, 2009)

tropic thunder wasn't as good as i expected.

you're lucky you didn't call out the empty hand tai chi guy. their kung foo is strong.  for their black belt test they have to present the heads of 19 black belts from other styles.  that's where his 20 black belts came from.

jf


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## Hand Sword (Jan 3, 2009)

He He...... I remember at one time (back in the day) when the dojo consisted almost only of tough guys and crazies! 



From what I remember, A match with some of the seasoned BB's "in the spirit of a good work out" usually did the trick.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 3, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Every so often we get someone coming in that wants to punch the crap out of people without any restraint. They love to go against the lower belts and wail away. Now I'm not talking about "challenge matches" etc., but guys who sign up for class and just like to hurt people.
> 
> We've had two in recent memory at our school. One is an older guy that never seemed to get the idea that we were there to train and that there wasn't anything riding on the outcome of a regular sparring session. He loved to throw hard punches and kicks and tackle people into the metal chairs. Then when one of us black belts would spar with him and give him what he gave us, he'd claim that he'd run out of gas after about 30 seconds of being on the receiving end. I always tell the new guys or lower belts that they can set the pace and amount of force and I'll match myself to them. I'm always amused at the guys who want to come in and throw hard and fast punches and kicks after we've gone back and forth and they get it in their heads that I'm not much of a threat. That's when I say, "Oh you want to crank up the pace?" Then I go moderately hard for about five to ten seconds. That tends to take the starch out of them.
> 
> ...



I had a couple of guys like that. One guy didn't get it until I went against him myself. The guy was all aggression and no real skill. After about a minute of not being able to hit me, he started to get it. I didn't throw a punch or kick. I just worked my footwork and checks until he winded himself.

Any time I have two of that type of the guy in the same class I pit them together and let them beat the bejeezus out of each other, then I have the class analyze the fight. The class then invariably brings up all the times the guys would have knocked eachother out. Then we talk about things they could have done differently. The meatheads get it or they don't; you can't convince a guy to something he doesn't want to do. But the class learns a lot regardless.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 3, 2009)

jarrod said:


> tropic thunder wasn't as good as i expected.
> 
> jf



This is heresy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Tropic Thunder was hilarious and especially when Tom Cruse was dancing. :rofl:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 3, 2009)

I weed out people via hard work.  Those that stick with it get to stay.  Those that do not leave.  Also everyone is a guest and if they attempt some thing that could damage some one else and cannot listen to instructions then they are out.  Typically I do not let someone spar right off the bat because I want them to have skills to defend themselves.  If we work any contact with new people it is of the padded stick variety.  Once they have skill sets developed over time then the ante is upped and everything is full contact. (empty hand, rattan stick, etc.)  Most overtly aggressive people do not make it to that point.


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## Tez3 (Jan 3, 2009)

We tend not to get that sort of person in the club.....sadly lol! We've had one or two who've said they were used to full contact sparring ( we actually only go about 70% in training) and they realise they're not. We do get a lot of people telling us they'll come training soon though!
I've had to choke a guy out and give a couple of others a dig when grappling to make them realise tapping isn't for wimps but this was more to do with my being female rather than anything else.


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## Nomad (Jan 5, 2009)

Hmmm... we don't let them spar for the first couple of months of training, then go into it slowly, usually with an offense/defense (one person only attacking, one person only defending) type thing with a much higher belt until they get the idea that we're not really there to prove anything or hurt each other.

Anyone continuing to fight after a stop was called would be severely warned and likely banned for a couple more months from the activity until they were able to hear more clearly.  This is the type of behaviour that can readily lead to lawsuits, and is completely not tolerated.  If the behaviour continued, they'd be politely invited to find somewhere else to train.

Someone going a little too hard or aggressive, on the other hand, is usually matched up with someone at least their own size and with a considerably higher level of skill to curb this tendency.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 5, 2009)

On a guy like that (equivalent to a school yard bully) you need to get a Lead Slap and go up behind him and wonk him on the back of the head and knock him out... then continue with the class... afterwards... when he wakes up... refund his money and kick him out. 

*OR* :uhyeah: 

Get a BB or whatever high ranking belt from another school to "join" your class wearing a white belt and casually pair them up together... let the "white-belt" do his thing... might put him in his place...

But I'd get rid of them... that to me is just pushing their weight around because they think they're bad-asses for taking the class and (maybe) being of higher rank or just plain stronger.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 5, 2009)

I have seen the put the two guys together and let them hurt each other, and see if they learn anything. 

I have also seen that they only work with a senior person who can control the situation. 

I have also seen people just block hard enough that everytime the reach out strong they get hurt or they end up on the floor as their energy is used against them. But this usually takes someone with more skill set as above. 


I even talk to them and ask them to play nice and work with others.

When it does not work we ask them to leave. 


*****


I do have a story where everyone thought I was that bruiser. I was at a TKD open training on a Saturday. My friend had stopped training in TKD at Red Belt Black Stripe but had continued in other arts. The Senior Master ahd asked him to at least get his Black Belt and then he could "retire" as he called it. So, I went along as a lo color belt in Modern Arnis and was concerned about the differences. I was introduced the most of the seniors, but one came in from warming up elsewhere and took over to start the training. 

As I was wearing my Rank from Modern Arnis, I knew how many belts up it was, so I lined up with the same number of ranks in the TKD system. I also lined up junior to all those in that rank. The 4th leading and starting the class was upset I was not properly lined up. (* Note: Everyone was wearing traditional White top and bottom, I was wearing Red Bottom and White Top. *) So, as not to cause a scene I lined up Junior with my "Color" on my hip. I looked at it like a good thing, hoping I could work with seniors and learn more. 

They started with Forms. Opps. I knew nothing about that systems forms. I was soon relagated back to the White Belts to learn the first form. (* Note: Each time I tried to explain that I was from a different system and as a friend of a guest invited by the Senior that I did not know. Most ignored me and just gave instructions. So I listend and tried my Best. Sometimes doing OK, others times I coudl hear the laughter from those who were wondering about the "Color" on my hip. 

After this we went to one and three steps. (* This was back in the mid-80's *) At first it was prescribed what we were to do, strike this way and then counter that way. So, I did it as told. Later, we were told to do what we knew to allow us to practice what we wanted. So, I started steping 45 degrees, and trapping and parrying versus blocks. One of the Black Belts saw this and moved me up to be with those that had the same color as me. (* I think the BB had been out of the room earlier and missed all the above as he was training in a separate room *). 

The guy I was put with, was not going to have this "person" who could not do simple forms show up now and show him up. So, he started hitting real hard. I asked him if I could block his counters? He said no. So, when it was my turn I hit him back. This caused him to take it up a level. Soon it was just close to a fight. It might have been on his side, but I was still using control and not looking to permanent damage just looking to make sure it was felt. 

We rotated people to work with. The new guy was not going to be shown up either and when he added in a sweep on the GYM floor and took me to the ground, I asked if throws were allowed. He said anything we knew was allowed. So, I did a throw back to him. A nice arm bar take down no real force to hurt him. He came back with a harder sweep. I then worked on an elbow strike to the head. I did not make contact. He came back even harder. I then threw him to the floor. He did not know how to fall. I reached down apologized and told him I was sorry and asked if he needed help. Boy was that the wrong thing to do. 

So, one of the Black Belts moved me up a color range. So I was now sparring with people of a much higher color. These guys did not want anything to do with me. As always I was a guest and let them go first. I wanted to see what was expected. The first guy hit me so hard in the head, it hurt. I just smiled. I dropped him with a arm/leg throw/sweep. The same Black Belt then moved me to a different person. This guy came at me hard. I put up my hands to block and defend myself. He walked into my elbow. I was moved again. This guy and I exchanged punches and kicks. He said no throws. 

At this time I was moved again to the rank just under Black. The Red Belt - Black Stripe. These guys had more control, but were looking to make sure I knew they were ready for BB and knew more than I. It was a little blurry here it started to repeat much of what happend before. We started Continuous sparring at this point. Whole class, not rank associated. 

The Black Belt moved me up with him. I was then to do continuous sparring with them. The younger guy that kept moving me up started out and he was good, and it was fun to spar him but we were exchanging and the tempo was getting faster and harder. A Thrid Degree came over and moved me up to the second degrees. The first guy started hard and it was lots of more fun of hitting each other. In there similar story happened and we got separated. I was then to spar with a older 2nd degree. The man asked me to not hit him in the head. He also said he did not want to be hit hard. That we would work on our timing and control. I siad yes Sir. I did not hit him in the head. I made sure if contact was made it was very light. He enjoyed the sparring as did I. 

I then was able to spar with the Third Degree, but he just played with me. He was able to pick his spots and hit on his desire. He said I would control the timing and the level of contact. If I did get to hard, I would apologize, and here the too hard was not 50% of earlier. It was just not what I had wanted. He would smile and acknowledge that I was recognizing my mistake. When we were done, he smiled and put his hand around me and said he did not expect to like me or enjoy working with me and watching me learn. He had seen me "work my way" through the students there, and he thought I was a bully there to hurt others. But when he saw me not hit the 2nd degree when he asked me he was going to give me a chance without "teaching me a lesson." 

He did teach me and help that day. But it was not my intent to have ended up where I did when I started that day. 



Thanks


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## elder999 (Jan 5, 2009)

Good story, Rich-of course, you're big, and between that and one other statement you made, I can relate. In fact, the whole thing can be explained by it:



Rich Parsons said:


> . (* This was back in the mid-80's *)


 
:lol:

I usually take care of "tough guys" personally, though I don't have much trouble with this, since my dojo is in my barn.  Sometimes an explanation suffices, sometimes a senior student, and sometimes I have to face plant them in that pile of horse manure. That usually works wonders. :lfao:

Just kidding-we've had a wall up between us and the horses for years now. Usually, just a talk will do, or I'll ask them to leave-it is my house, after all.When I taught publicly, or when I'm at my son's or my other student's class, I've found the best way is to use them as the uke for demonstration for  a class. Calms them right down......

(There was that one guy who wound up neck deep in horse ****, though-good times!)


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## Shotochem (Jan 6, 2009)

. 

*OR* :uhyeah: 

Get a BB or whatever high ranking belt from another school to "join" your class wearing a white belt and casually pair them up together... let the "white-belt" do his thing... might put him in his place...


LOL!!!  I provided that service myself when I joined my dojo and started over as a whitebelt.  The wackjob who was a few belts higher than me at the time came at me fast and furious. 

A little sidestep and sweep sent him flying across the room feeling quite humble.


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## Rabu (Jan 6, 2009)

Since I now resemble the pilsbury dough boy more than I ever have in my youth, I love to work with the 'tough guy' when they come in, should I be lucky enough to be in class when they do.

There is something for the ego of a bully in pounding on the fat guy, but theres some humility to be learned when the fat guy pounds them back at least as good as he gets.

I try to be happy, friendly and responsive to what the person is looking for.  Most often people are nervous, dont know what to expect, or have come in looking to prove to themselves that they are better or more capable than they might really be.  And...They _might _be, in which case, why not appreciate what they have to offer and try to make a friend?  Maybe you can bring a good student into the school if you make your learning environment attactive.

Either way, hold that handshake a bit longer than is manfully comfortable and tell them you look forward to grappling with them again in the future.

Remember your humility and kindness, but remind them that you arent a doormat.

Hope you get a smile out of the post, 

Rob


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## jarrod (Jan 6, 2009)

you're not one of those really fast fat guys, are you?  i hate sparring them.  my internal monologue is always like: "crap, he's pretty big, maybe i can out quick him.  *BAM*  nope, i guess not."

the irony is that i'm slowly turning into a fast fat guy myself.  my hope is to put it off 20-30 years, then i can be a fast fat old guy.

jf


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 6, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have seen the put the two guys together and let them hurt each other, and see if they learn anything.
> 
> I have also seen that they only work with a senior person who can control the situation.
> 
> ...



Hey Rich I am pretty sure I know where this happened.


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## KenpoDave (Jan 6, 2009)

jarrod said:


> my mistake!
> 
> jungle style could have all kinds of awesome sounding technique names like "python fist" or "fish that swims up your peehole kick"!
> 
> jf


 
That's my favorite kick!


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 6, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Rich I am pretty sure I know where this happened.


 

True, you do. But, the names of those involved were not removed to protect any innocence or guilt, but that they did not matter to the subject at hand. So I choose not to bring anyone into the discussion, for something that happened 20+ years ago.    You know me, admit my own guilt to show a point, but save others any issues. :asian:


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## tellner (Jan 7, 2009)

Jungle style?

Alright! I wanna do the Six Animal version:

*Elephant:* Be big enough that nobody messes with you. In case of trouble call in a dozen even bigger friends

*Lion:* OK, that's savanna, but close enough. Go for the young, the old and the sick. Attack from ambush. Break off if it starts taking too much energy. Let the girls do most of the work. 

*Jackson's Chameleon:* Blend in and hope nobody notices you. Practice moving your eyes in different directions.

*Monkey:* Hide up in the trees. Fling dung and rotten fruit at pursuers. Mob anyone who gets too close.

*Poison Arrow Frog:* Be so damned poisonous that nobody will even think of hurting you. Wear a flashy suit everyone knows it's you.

*Wildebeest:* With a couple hundred thousand close friends nearby there's a good chance the lion will eat someone else.


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## DavidCC (Jan 7, 2009)

tellner said:


> Jungle style?
> 
> Alright! I wanna do the Six Animal version:
> 
> ...


 
I think you underestimate monkeys.  I saw a documentary the other day about monkey wars - between groups of monkeys - they will kill other monkeys with their bare hands and eat their enemies.  I was surprised at the ferocity, it was almost beyond animal, nearly human-level aggression.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 7, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Every so often we get someone coming in that wants to punch the crap out of people without any restraint. They love to go against the lower belts and wail away. Now I'm not talking about "challenge matches" etc., but guys who sign up for class and just like to hurt people.
> 
> We've had two in recent memory at our school. One is an older guy that never seemed to get the idea that we were there to train and that there wasn't anything riding on the outcome of a regular sparring session. He loved to throw hard punches and kicks and tackle people into the metal chairs. Then when one of us black belts would spar with him and give him what he gave us, he'd claim that he'd run out of gas after about 30 seconds of being on the receiving end. I always tell the new guys or lower belts that they can set the pace and amount of force and I'll match myself to them. I'm always amused at the guys who want to come in and throw hard and fast punches and kicks after we've gone back and forth and they get it in their heads that I'm not much of a threat. That's when I say, "Oh you want to crank up the pace?" Then I go moderately hard for about five to ten seconds. That tends to take the starch out of them.
> 
> ...


 
Damn, Dan. I'm wondering if we might not have had the same "TKD" guy visit. Big ole butter ball who could only get his side kick up to knee height, so he kept taking it as his only shot, going harder at the knee than he ought to have. I just kept moving my leg and countering to the open groin (fade to the inside, lifting heel scoop with simultaneous backfist to head...more to obscure his view of the heel than to actually hit), and inviting him to explore his other tools or options. My AI, on the other hand, decided the tub-o-goo needed to be educated on what happens to annoying self-aggrandizers, so he threw him (the guy also supposedly had a judo background, which would mean he could breakfall appropriately)...he broke his fall by driving his elbow into the ground, popping the bursa so that the thing filled up like a water balloon. Of course, we apologized profusely.

In a BJJ club I was in (HB), we had a big old construction working wrassler come in. Big guy, lots of aggression, lots of physical strength. Tried to squeeze and crush everything. Instructor put me with him, saying I needed the workout, and NOT to submit him...just also don't get submitted myself. So he and I rolled for about 45 minutes of freeplay, him trying to crush me with brute strength, me waiting for him to tire from over-exertion, and using lots of dirty play tricks to grind on tender spots, etc., while he was crushing. From a strictly ego-driven place, the night ended with him bragging that...at least I didn't get him in anything; he's sure his strength was what helped him dominate me. So, we had a match...about a minute till he yelped submission (apparently, no one told him how to tap, so he did the "OK!OK!OK!OK!" thing instead...of course, me kneeling on the hand of the arm I wasn't barring may have had something to do with it  ).

Another fun one was in a sticks session with Master Sam (Mr. Bishop will remember him). We had a guy come in who liked to play rough, so Sam went with him a bit...very few guys as unkind to their partners as Sam. Always had a rep with the FMA crew for being a little too exuberant in his drills. That ended fast.

D.


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