# Native North American Fighting arts?



## Wertle (Aug 20, 2002)

After having a discussion about Brotherhood of the Wolf (a movie which could appear in just about *any* section of the video store and still be logical), we started wondering about indigenous fighting arts of the Native Americans, including their link across the Bering Strait to Asia.

I'm sure they had fighting arts, but apparently not well-documented ones.  Does anyone have any ideas or information?


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## tmanifold (Aug 20, 2002)

There is a guy who advertises in BLack belt every once in a while saying he teaches Native fighting and that he a a tradtional Native warrior but his martial background is kenpo so I have a feeling this native style of fighting will look suprisingly similar to kenpo.


Tony


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## GouRonin (Aug 21, 2002)

His name is Chief Roman and while he is an 8th in American Kenpo he has his own knife and empty hand arts which I believe he is a 10th in last I heard.

His website is around here somewhere but I can't find it offhand and I'm not too inclined to look.


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## Wertle (Aug 21, 2002)

yeah, it seems like it'd be pretty hard to find a current practitioner, but surely there's some history about indigenous fighting arts of native americans *somewhere*.  I suppose I could always raid the anthropology department.  It's just not something you really hear about, or even hear interest in, I guess.


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## Rich_ (Aug 22, 2002)

If they didn't have a written language to record it, there's no way of knowing. Brings to mind certain European arts that claim they've been practiced in secret for centuries, handed down by word of mouth. And, oddly, most of the grandmasters started their training in karate... 

I don't doubt that there were people out there that were handy with a tomahawk or bow and that the average standard of skills in them would have been high; however, nomadic tribes would have had trouble developing *advanced* martial arts, in my opinion. All the arts I can think of were developed by people training in academies, temples, schools, or in armies. All of which require agrarian 'civilisation' - cities, stable food production and so on. Even the 'settled' American tribes only had a village-based structure, as far as I'm aware.

I'm sure there was some form of wrestling in most of the Native American cultures - show me a culture without one! In fact, the only nomadic-based arts I'm aware of are wrestling arts - Mongolian wrestling, say, or the central-Asian arts that got subsumed into Sambo.


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## GouRonin (Aug 22, 2002)

http://www.adrianroman.com/index2.htm
http://www.metroart.com/kenpo.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/bioadrianRoman.html

Here are a few links for Chief Roman.


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## Rich_ (Aug 23, 2002)

Cheers Gou. They're an, ummm... interesting insight into native american fighting styles...


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## GouRonin (Aug 23, 2002)

Don't look at me. I just find the websites...


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

Yeah, since "chief" Roman, was born in 1942, and soon moved to Dallas, TX, where he was the only NA family in town, I don't believe he can give insight into NA martial arts. He basically developed his own style. Being Native American, I have researched this alot. What you have to understand is that the NA people were not united. They fought each other as much as fighting "white men". They have no style handed down from generation, they were survivors. They used nature as their weapons, and didn't really need a regimented art. I have yet to hear of a NA art form. Since NA can mean so many different tribes of peoples.


7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 25, 2002)

They must have handed down weapons techniques from generation to generation at the very least; and almost every group of people has a form of wrestling. I can easily believe that they're lost though.


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## Samurai (Aug 30, 2002)

Honestly...I have been doing *A LOT* of research on the techniques of Native American tomahawk techniques.  My family background is Shawnee and I have spoken to several of the "old ones" on the reservation in Oklahoma.

The easiest way to describe the techniques is to look at the Filipino Martial Arts.  Most of the techiques that the elders showed me can be found in the Filipino Martial Arts.

The 12 Angles from Serrada, or Inosanto Kali are like the tomahawk techniques I saw.


John Perkins is the author of a book called ATTACK PROOF.  He talks about NAtive American groundfighting.


Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## redfive (Aug 30, 2002)

I would give Adrian Roman an email and ask him. I have trained with him and his daughter on several occations and he is a realy nice guy. I never did anything in the N.A. arts but his kempo is realy good. He has a lot of good stories about Mr. Parker. He is 100% indian and has done a lot of research in the N.A. I think he still teaches out of his house. He has never had a formal school, or one that lasted long. But he is a good instructor

                        Redfive


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## 7starmantis (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by redfive _
> 
> *I would give Adrian Roman an email and ask him. I have trained with him and his daughter on several occations and he is a realy nice guy. I never did anything in the N.A. arts but his kempo is realy good. He has a lot of good stories about Mr. Parker. He is 100% indian and has done a lot of research in the N.A. I think he still teaches out of his house. He has never had a formal school, or one that lasted long. But he is a good instructor
> 
> Redfive *




When you say Mr. Parker are you talking about Quanah Parker ?


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## GouRonin (Aug 31, 2002)

Chief Roman studied with Ed Parker of American Kenpo fame.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Chief Roman studied with Ed Parker of American Kenpo fame. *



Oh, gotcha, sorry. I was thinking of na chief fame. 

I would be interested in seeing some techniques mentioned about tamahawks. I have visited most Reservations in america with my uncle who was head of indian affairs for many years. I used to go with him on trips to the reservations when I was a kid. I loved it. My tribal affiliation is most likely nothing now, since its been years for me, but I'm allways facinated by NA arts.


7sm


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## GouRonin (Sep 15, 2002)

I just saw an ad for Adrian Roman claiming he can certify you for black belt in 365 days or less all for the low low price of $995.00.

The webpage is www.blackbelt4you.com

Why is it on the page where they deal with dertification they say, 

_"REMEMBER, EVEN IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THE COLORED BELT RANKS, YOU STILL HAVE AN AUTHENTIC AND ACCEPTED BLACK BELT CERTIFICATE FOR WHAT WORK YOU HAVE DONE, OR WILL DO, THROUGH GRANDMASTER ROMANS AMERICAN KENPO SYSTEM.
DISCLAIMER: Receipt of the American Kenpo Black Belt Certificate from GrandMaster Adrian Roman does not endorse or certify the recipient in any form or manner."_

This confirms my worst fears that American Kenpo is quickly becoming the American version of TKD.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 29, 2002)

Not only that but you are "entrusted the noble title of warrior" as well. Man thats priceless, you can't put a price tag on that! Are you crazy! !st Degree Black AND noble Warrior title, all for only $995, thats a deal man, you should take it up and quick!!


 

7sm


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## GouRonin (Sep 30, 2002)

I wonder if he'll take an IOU?

Heck, I betcha he has an _"easy payment plan."_
:shrug:


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## 7starmantis (Sep 30, 2002)

Probably he does!! But you better poy up, you don't want his army of noble warriors to come looking for you!!


7sm


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## cdhall (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I wonder if he'll take an IOU?
> 
> ...



Maybe we can trade him Manhattan Island for his video system and certificate.


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## M F (Oct 28, 2002)

If anyone is still interested, there is a guy named Blaise Loong.  I believe he is in Southern California.  He teaches Native American fighting arts(I believe he says Apache), as well as other arts.  Filipino, JKD, and others.  He was featured in a magazine called Full Contact several years ago.  Many high ranking instructors had good things to say about him.  http://www.blayshalla.com


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## M F (Oct 28, 2002)

I looked at the website closer.  Go to the Yashai Warcraft link.  Then #3, Nagondzog.  It has a little article on aspects of the Apache arts.  
This doesn't have anything to do with this topic, but Loong is an instructor of JKD and Jun Fan arts under Dan Inosanto.  Mr. Inosanto is quoted as saying, "if you want to see how Bruce(Lee) did it, watch Blaise."  Look at the pictures that go along with his articles(in the Archive section).  He bears a striking resemblance to Bruce Lee, mostly in his build and form.


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## Rommel (Mar 26, 2003)

I just posted this in the other thread, but for those interested here it is.

TRS, the same guys who brought us Vlad, has just come out with a tape of someone who they claim is teaching the Native American Indian Fighting Arts. I just love how TRS promotes these guys. That company is one of the most persuasive. I'm just glad when I trusted them regarding Vladimir. Here's the link:

http://www.trsdirect.com/instructor.php?id=Brown


If anyone decides to take the risk, please post a review


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## Blindside (Mar 27, 2003)

Thanks but I think I'll save my my money....



> The most feared... most respected... and most hyper-skilled fighter who ever walked this earth... was the American Indian. In fact, the lowliest Comanche warrior could wipe out an entire troop of "civilized" soldiers all on his lonesome.



Uh huh.... someone didn't tell that to the US cavalry.

Personally, I think TRS adds would be helped by the overall banning of words: savage, brutal, hyper, lethal, and vicious.  :shrug: 

Lamont


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## Samurai (Mar 27, 2003)

I found Randall Brown's website http://www.akumu.com/inaboutus.html

Randall is the guy in the TRS video.  It sounds like he is not 100% happy about the ad tatics that TRS uses.



> The advertisements concerning the video may or may not accurately depict its message and or contents, as I have very little control over that. But I believe that the video when viewed stands on its own merit as a valid representation of historical Native fighting skills. These methods are quite unique and to my knowledge are being viewed by the public for the first time in hundreds of years. Judging by the emails that I have received from viewers, the video is being well received.


This was from his website.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## Samurai (Apr 3, 2003)

I bit the bullet and ordered the Plains Indian Fighting Methods tapes today.  I will be happy to post  a review soon.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## Bujingodai (Apr 20, 2003)

I was reading this ad today. Well he's a 12th dan grandmaster, certified to teach in 6 other arts as well as being a

4th Degree in Yondan :rofl: :shrug: 

Yeah. I'd almost pay the 75 bucks to see it.


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## lost_tortoise (Apr 21, 2003)

I grew up in Rochester, New York and spent a great deal of time on the Cattaraugus Indian Reservation (being part Seneca myself and my grandfather having many friends there.)  The Iriquois were not as prone to wandering as the plains indians and therefore had more systemized ways of living.  I learned to wrestle there and even the youngest were fairly brutal fighters.  Also, LaCrosse was something of a fighting art as much as it was a sport (this was back in the seventies, I cannot speak to how it is now.)  I don't think the combat techniques had a name, but they definitely existed...after all, learning them as a youngster was what planted the seed for my lifelong interest in the martial arts!  I remember those times fondly and if this post should find anyone who was there back then, I thank you and wish you all the best on your journey.

lost (little) tortoise


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## zen_hydra (May 6, 2003)

My family is descended from the Powhatan people.  One of my brothers big martial arts goals is to one day create a series of kung fu forms based around North American animals with influence from native myths.  So, for example, a coyote form might imitate the quickness, and playfulness of a coyote, but also the deceitfulness, and trickery of Grandfather Coyote.


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 14, 2003)

does any one have any information on the central american(ie maya, huaztecas, and olmecas), or seminole systems.  Ive only seen the central american stuff once when I was in mexico visiting family.  And I have only read of the seminole ways as a foot note from one of my antropology books.

Any Info you guys might have would be appreciated.


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## manofleisure (Jan 1, 2005)

I think this would also be a good thread to discuss central/south american indian martial arts.The MA of the Iynca,Aztec,Mayan et cetra.

I doubt we will find anyone with any real info on this subject,but I would think that warrior peoples like the Aztecs would have some type of fighting techniques of  their own.

If anything I wouldlike to see how a mayan war sword was fought with.Did they just flail the dam thing around?


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