# Your honest opinion on William Cheung's Wing Chun system!



## Svemocn1vidar

I won't even go into that regular discussion when William Cheung is concerned,"My Wing Chun is special,i was taught the real-deal,everyone else was fooled". I really don't care about that. It does not concern me. I never even belived that.
But what i want to know is your opinion on some stuff concerning his system. For example:
- Chi Sao (Which is not impressive at all,i've never seen William Cheung or any of his students do it in a masterfull manner,so to speak. No impressive speed,counter attacks or any feat that represents Wing Chun as it should. If you guys have seen any footage to disprove me,please,feel free to share)
- No relaxation? Hard style of Wing Chun? (I've starting my Wing Chun in Cheung's system and have soon realised it is far different from anything i've had access to. Most of the guys i worked with were very well trained,but they used Wing Chun techniques in a "Karate" manner,completly hard,with no or little relaxation or softness to it. Don't get me wrong,they were trained well,fast and strong,but they did not have one of the major parts of Wing Chun phylosophy,soft side...)
- First block then attack phylosophy? This is not a rule. But William Cheung at times insisted on this fighting phylosophy. As if this was integrated within my previous master,he would always block first,then attack,using the blind side (also the major focus of Cheung's system),even when there was no need for such actions. For example,against a experienced fighter,some of the stuff wouldnt work at all.
- Superiour footwork and rushing to the blindside? I think not. Their footwork is somewhat wider then other system,i would agree on that part,however,i disagree on the "superiour" part. There is nothing superiour about it,one just needs to train it out to understand. Also,it's good to be on another's blind side while fighting,i can understand that. However,it doesn't mean this strategy will work against experienced fighters who've done their homework while sparring and practicing footwork.
So,all in all,could you please give me your opinion on William Cheung's fighting system. I didnt mean to disrespect it,or Grandmaster William Cheung in any manner,but i left that kind of Wing Chun after a year or so and decided to practice something much closer to Yip Man's Hong Kong period of teaching.

Cheerz and respect to all Wing Chun schools.


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## Svemocn1vidar

Due to some sort of lag issue i had, i didnt realise i've created two same threads. I ask moderators to delete one of the two whenever they get the chance to do it. 
Regards and thank you,
Vidar


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## Eric_H

What a lame attempt at trolling.

TWC's got vid clips of Sanda fighters, chi sao comp and whatever else you're looking for. Just type it in google and I'm sure you'll find something.

If you're pissed he said he got something better than the other guys - go prove him wrong.


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## profesormental

Greetings.

I suggest you go to the archives and search for this same discussion that has come up several times. From there, if you wish, bring up the points you want to discuss.

For example, why would X tactic be better than Y tactic? What tactic would be better and why?

Is A stance better than B Stance for C situation? Why?

This would lead to fruitful discussion in the long run instead of a bashing of whatever.

Hope that helps.


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## Xue Sheng

:trollsign


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## hunt1

Your comments about TWC are based n a conceit. That you know or have learned the correct wing chun.

 Some one from TWC could look at what you do and also have a list of complaints.

 TWC has good points and bad points like everything else. 

 It's a bit funny that you started this thread. I went to your you tube page and in many of the favorites vid's you can plainly see basic wing chun principals being violated yet no comments about them.


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## Svemocn1vidar

hunt1 said:


> Your comments about TWC are based n a conceit. That you know or have learned the correct wing chun.
> 
> Some one from TWC could look at what you do and also have a list of complaints.
> 
> TWC has good points and bad points like everything else.
> 
> It's a bit funny that you started this thread. I went to your you tube page and in many of the favorites vid's you can plainly see basic wing chun principals being violated yet no comments about them.



If you have seen my channel,then you must have also seen that i appreciate many TWC masters. There's nothing funny about me starting this thread. If i misunderstood the concepts of TWC,then please,explain them to me. I never said i know something for certain nor did i say my previous statements are facts.

- Concerning those that called me a "troll". I thank you for your insults. They show much of your character. I respect TWC and Grandmaster William Cheung,if  you failed to see this,it's your own inability to comprehend things. Since i am not experienced in TWC,i just tried it,please be so kind to answer my above points. 
If you see my channel you will notice that i respect and cherish ALL wing chun schools,no matter the lineage. Thus,i havent in any way insult the way of Cheung's TWC.


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## Svemocn1vidar

Eric_H said:


> What a lame attempt at trolling.
> 
> TWC's got vid clips of Sanda fighters, chi sao comp and whatever else you're looking for. Just type it in google and I'm sure you'll find something.
> 
> If you're pissed he said he got something better than the other guys - go prove him wrong.


Another member that missunderstood the point of my thread. I wanted to know why some of the issues mentioned above do or do not work. Esspecially the Chi Sao part. I am not pissed at all if Grandmaster Cheung's system has some superiour parts then other systems. I just dont see TWC concepts as superiour. As for "Sanda" fighters,i probably know more Gold medalists in person then yourself. I've trained with them. TWC guys from Serbia won gold medals in Sanda competitions in the past,i respect them. But still,true Wing Chun principals mean little or nothing at all in sport competitions.


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## wtxs

Svemocn1vidar said:


> If you have seen my channel,then you must have also seen that i appreciate many TWC masters. There's nothing funny about me starting this thread. If i misunderstood the concepts of TWC,then please,explain them to me. I never said i know something for certain nor did i say my previous statements are facts.
> 
> - Concerning those that called me a "troll". I thank you for your insults. They show much of your character. I respect TWC and Grandmaster William Cheung,if  you failed to see this,it's your own inability to comprehend things. Since i am not experienced in TWC,i just tried it,please be so kind to answer my above points.
> If you see my channel you will notice that i respect and cherish ALL wing chun schools,no matter the lineage. Thus,i havent in any way insult the way of Cheung's TWC.



First, we must appreciate that WC is an adaptive art form ... which we make it work according to our physical structure, to that end, what we see of others are doing as ineffective/inefficient in our eyes does not meant squat.  What WC you are doing could be viewed in the same context.

As the direct result of said adaptation, we make WC work to suit our own INDIVIDUAL needs, and it WILL NOT look like the ways of you or I would, long as we can get the desired end result.

I have posted before ... DON'T judge the book by its cover, in this case, by some demo video clips, or biased by the linage of WC you're currently learning.


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## Xue Sheng

Next time you give someone a bad rep at least have the guts to sign it and make sure your comments are applicable to the person you&#8217;re giving said bad rep too and don't accuse the person of saying things they NEVER SAID...


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## Svemocn1vidar

Xue Sheng said:


> Next time you give someone a bad rep at least have the guts to sign it and make sure your comments are applicable to the person you&#8217;re giving said bad rep too and don't accuse the person of saying things they NEVER SAID...



Dear sir,"don't feed the troll" is an insult to me. I neg'ed you and explained why. You were dissrespectful. Was i the same to you? If so,i am deeply sorry. Have the guts to sign what? You have all avaliable information you need in explanation and my profil page,feel free to check,fellow practicioner.
You could have done much better by helping my undestand the principles behind things i mentioned above,which in my mind are minor flaws of TWC. Instead,you decided act as a spoiled child by calling someone a troll,something i would have never done.
Once again,if anything is missunderstood,i am sorry.


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## Flying Crane

Svemocn1vidar said:


> I won't even go into that regular discussion when William Cheung is concerned,"My Wing Chun is special,i was taught the real-deal,everyone else was fooled". I really don't care about that. It does not concern me. I never even belived that.
> But what i want to know is your opinion on some stuff concerning his system. For example:
> - Chi Sao (Which is not impressive at all,i've never seen William Cheung or any of his students do it in a masterfull manner,so to speak. No impressive speed,counter attacks or any feat that represents Wing Chun as it should. If you guys have seen any footage to disprove me,please,feel free to share)
> - No relaxation? Hard style of Wing Chun? (I've starting my Wing Chun in Cheung's system and have soon realised it is far different from anything i've had access to. Most of the guys i worked with were very well trained,but they used Wing Chun techniques in a "Karate" manner,completly hard,with no or little relaxation or softness to it. Don't get me wrong,they were trained well,fast and strong,but they did not have one of the major parts of Wing Chun phylosophy,soft side...)
> - First block then attack phylosophy? This is not a rule. But William Cheung at times insisted on this fighting phylosophy. As if this was integrated within my previous master,he would always block first,then attack,using the blind side (also the major focus of Cheung's system),even when there was no need for such actions. For example,against a experienced fighter,some of the stuff wouldnt work at all.
> - Superiour footwork and rushing to the blindside? I think not. Their footwork is somewhat wider then other system,i would agree on that part,however,i disagree on the "superiour" part. There is nothing superiour about it,one just needs to train it out to understand. Also,it's good to be on another's blind side while fighting,i can understand that. However,it doesn't mean this strategy will work against experienced fighters who've done their homework while sparring and practicing footwork.
> So,all in all,could you please give me your opinion on William Cheung's fighting system. I didnt mean to disrespect it,or Grandmaster William Cheung in any manner,but i left that kind of Wing Chun after a year or so and decided to practice something much closer to Yip Man's Hong Kong period of teaching.
> 
> Cheerz and respect to all Wing Chun schools.


 

It looks to me like your own opinion is pretty well made up.  Does it matter what others may think?


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## Svemocn1vidar

Flying Crane said:


> It looks to me like your own opinion is pretty well made up.  Does it matter what others may think?


It does to me? Why would i ask something or start a thread for that matter if other people opinion matters not?
I merely wished to see some opinions on things i mentioned were minor flaws of the system. It's speed and power are obvious. I've trained with,am friends with,and have been to seminars with TWC people.
Some of them even agreed on my argument that they lack chi sao relaxation and visible feats. My opinion is made up,say you? Ok then,perhaps i made all this up. I've stated only the things i've seen with my own eyes.


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## Flying Crane

Svemocn1vidar said:


> It does to me? Why would i ask something or start a thread for that matter if other people opinion matters not?
> I merely wished to see some opinions on things i mentioned were minor flaws of the system. It's speed and power are obvious. I've trained with,am friends with,and have been to seminars with TWC people.
> Some of them even agreed on my argument that they lack chi sao relaxation and visible feats. My opinion is made up,say you? Ok then,perhaps i made all this up. I've stated only the things i've seen with my own eyes.


 
Then perhaps you should take a look at how you have presented yourself in this thread and consider whether that may have prompted the kind of replies you've received.

You entitle the thread "Your Honest Opinion on William Cheung's Wing Chun", and then you proceed to state that essentially everything about it is wrong.  OK, you don't like it, that's your choice, you can feel however you want about it.  But in this context it really looks like you are just bitching about him and you want to gripe to the world about it.  Do you not see the relationship here?

You really have not opened the door to honest discussion about the topic, and you are the guy who started the thread.


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## Svemocn1vidar

Flying Crane said:


> Then perhaps you should take a look at how you have presented yourself in this thread and consider whether that may have prompted the kind of replies you've received.
> 
> You entitle the thread "Your Honest Opinion on William Cheung's Wing Chun", and then you proceed to state that essentially everything about it is wrong.  OK, you don't like it, that's your choice, you can feel however you want about it.  But in this context it really looks like you are just bitching about him and you want to gripe to the world about it.  Do you not see the relationship here?
> 
> You really have not opened the door to honest discussion about the topic, and you are the guy who started the thread.



Ahh,the title,Christ,you're right!
I see the point. If possible at all,i will change the title. It is a little bit confusing indeed! I meant to indicate the flaws of the things i've seen in the system and then debate about them.


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## jks9199

Folks, 
Let me remind everyone of a few rules hereabouts.

Fraudbusting is discouraged here.  Strongly.  Stick to the issues about the style, and avoid trying to get into who's Wing Chun is "real".

If you've got a problem with a post or with reputation points -- bring it to the staff.  Don't carp in a thread.  Any post can be reported by clicking on the RTM button; it's the red & white triangle thingy up there in the corner.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Rep can be reported by sending a PM to any staff member, especially senior staff,or to the _*MT Admin Team*_ account.

So -- everybody play nice, and let's avoid having the staff take a more official role in this thread.


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## geezer

Svemocn1vidar said:


> Dear sir,"don't feed the troll" is an insult to me. I neg'ed you and explained why. You were dissrespectful....Once again,if anything is missunderstood,i am sorry.


 
Let's stop right now guys! 

_Svemocn1vidar, _I understand that you weren't intending to stir things up, but there's no need to go around dinging people's rep. _Xue_ is quite well liked around here. It would be better to step back, cool off and just clarify things. For what it's worth, my take on TWC is pretty close to yours, but I've also met some pretty decent folks that practice it. We all have our preferences. Maybe it would be better to talk about the techniques of TWC, but _leave William Cheung's name out of it._ Especially since you are a student of _Emin's!_ I mean that's bound to stir things up! As you know, a lot of us respect Emin's skills, but when a WT student, any branch, starts a critique of TWC, tempers are bound to flare. So I just keep my opinions to myself. Mostly, anyway.


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## Flying Crane

Svemocn1vidar said:


> Ahh,the title,Christ,you're right!
> I see the point. If possible at all,i will change the title. It is a little bit confusing indeed! I meant to indicate the flaws of the things i've seen in the system and then debate about them.


 
I also noticed that you are from Beograd, so perhaps there is a language barrier that is making it difficult to express yourself the way you intend.  If so, that is perfectly understandable and maybe knowing that, the rest of us can go a bit easy on you too.


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## Xue Sheng

Edit

Out of respect for the moderators I have deleted what I posted in order to not make thier job any more difficult

I am done with this thread


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## Svemocn1vidar

geezer said:


> Let's stop right now guys!
> 
> _Svemocn1vidar, _I understand that you weren't intending to stir things up, but there's no need to go around dinging people's rep. _Xue_ is quite well liked around here. It would be better to step back, cool off and just clarify things. For what it's worth, my take on TWC is pretty close to yours, but I've also met some pretty decent folks that practice it. We all have our preferences. Maybe it would be better to talk about the techniques of TWC, but _leave William Cheung's name out of it._ Especially since you are a student of _Emin's!_ I mean that's bound to stir things up! As you know, a lot of us respect Emin's skills, but when a WT student, any branch, starts a critique of TWC, tempers are bound to flare. So I just keep my opinions to myself. Mostly, anyway.



I agree completly but please allow me to repeat :
I've nothing but respect for Grandmaster William Cheung as a martial-artist,i wouldnt call him Grandmaster otherwise. Esspecially since i trained in the system at start. Nothing here is about "the real deal" or whatnot,only about techniques,feats of the system. 
Considering Master Emin,i've never heard him say anything bad about TWC,this is not him or my Sifu speaking through me. Only my view on some stuff.
We in Serbia are really close to TWC people,we have nothing but respect for each-other and we know each other in person.
Cheerz and respect and thank you Geezer for inteligent response. Meant no disrespect to mister Xue,i merely responded accordingly.


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## Eric_H

Svemocn1vidar said:


> Another member that missunderstood the point of my thread. I wanted to know why some of the issues mentioned above do or do not work. Esspecially the Chi Sao part. I am not pissed at all if Grandmaster Cheung's system has some superiour parts then other systems. I just dont see TWC concepts as superiour. As for "Sanda" fighters,i probably know more Gold medalists in person then yourself. I've trained with them. TWC guys from Serbia won gold medals in Sanda competitions in the past,i respect them. But still,true Wing Chun principals mean little or nothing at all in sport competitions.



Oh I understood it all right, you're attempting to drag GM Cheung's name in the mud and then hope by adding "with all respect" and other blanket nonsense statements that you can get away with it.

You do not know me and have no idea who i know. Knowing supposed "gold medalists" doesn't give you any credibility either. As long as there is no proof needed - I'm also best friends with Batman and Superman - they rank WAYYY above any gold medalists. 

Who the heck are you to even begin talking about "true Wing Chun principals"? Have you even attempted to compete with WC?


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## Flying Crane

c'mon, please, let's not go down this road.  

I think the OP didn't express himself the way he intended and there may be some misunderstandings with regard to his intentions.  Let's all back off for a bit and give him a chance to straighten things out.


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## Svemocn1vidar

Eric_H said:


> Oh I understood it all right, you're attempting to drag GM Cheung's name in the mud and then hope by adding "with all respect" and other blanket nonsense statements that you can get away with it.
> 
> You do not know me and have no idea who i know. Knowing supposed "gold medalists" doesn't give you any credibility either. As long as there is no proof needed - I'm also best friends with Batman and Superman - they rank WAYYY above any gold medalists.
> 
> Who the heck are you to even begin talking about "true Wing Chun principals"? Have you even attempted to compete with WC?


I fought only to protect myself in the street. That's how i base my WC. As a real fighting system,one not based on rules in the competitions. Maybe you know Batman and Supermen,i don't really care. The best of Serbia's TWC people are my friends,that's what matters to me. 
I am sorry if i offended you in any way. Since obviously i was missunderstood more then once,i ask moderators kindly to delete this thread. I will no longer discuss anything in these forums. I admit my mistake,the fault is mine and noone elses. Goodbye.


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## Xue Sheng

Don&#8217;t leave take the hit and move on, start another post but keep the questions simple to start

English not being your main language can make it rough sometimes on a mostly English forum especially the little nuances like tone. That one is hard to get in speaking and in writing harder. I cannot tell you how many arguments I have learned to avoid with my wife once I figured that little tone issue out. She is not a native English speaker either and does not always get tone of English right.

You want to discuss William Cheung then discuss William Cheung but I got to tell you it is REAL easy in the CMA section to get into a lineage fight and in Wing Chun sometimes doubly so. But then Wing Chun guys tend to be tough enough to take it&#8230;not as tough as us Taiji guys but they do ok :uhyeah:

Xue ducks covers and runs out of the Wing Chun room for fear of pummeling (exit stage left)


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## Svemocn1vidar

Anyhow,
i really meant what i said about deleting this thread. I see i brought up some ill feelings by merely trying to discuss some things in the TWC system. As for Grandmaster William Cheung or any Grandmaster for that matter,i have nothing but respect. If life smiles upon me,i will try many Wing Chun systems in my lifetime,that's how much i love Wing Chun. But for now,please delete this,i already have a BIG headache after a hard working day.
For the last time,
i am sorry if i offended anyone.
Regards,
Matija


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## Flying Crane

nah, they usually do not delete a thread.  If a thread gets really offensive they may lock it down and not allow it to continue, but even then they will not usually delete it.

This thread isn't really bad at all.  There were just some misunderstandings, that's all.  A few ruffled feathers, not a big deal.   No need to close it in my opinion.  It could still work out into a good discussion, so go ahead and keep it going.


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## Xue Sheng

Let&#8217;s back up and go from here shall we, I mean if it is ok with you



Svemocn1vidar said:


> could you please give me your opinion on William Cheung's fighting system.


 
I really can&#8217;t say much about William Cheung I never trained in his lineage. And to be honest I am much more a Taijiquan guy than a Wing Chun guy, all I know is Siu Nim Tao.



Svemocn1vidar said:


> I didnt mean to disrespect it,or Grandmaster William Cheung in any manner,but i left that kind of Wing Chun after a year or so and decided to practice something much closer to Yip Man's Hong Kong period of teaching.
> 
> Cheerz and respect to all Wing Chun schools.


 
The lineage I trained in was from Ip Man via Ip Chung so I am guessing it is similar to what you train. But that is as far as I can go with this. 

Hopefully someone with much more experience will be along that can give you a better comparison between Ip Man and William Cheung than I&#8230;which is to say maybe someone with a little knowledge on the subject responds because I have none


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## Eric_H

Svemocn1vidar said:


> Anyhow,
> i really meant what i said about deleting this thread. I see i brought up some ill feelings by merely trying to discuss some things in the TWC system. As for Grandmaster William Cheung or any Grandmaster for that matter,i have nothing but respect. If life smiles upon me,i will try many Wing Chun systems in my lifetime,that's how much i love Wing Chun. But for now,please delete this,i already have a BIG headache after a hard working day.
> For the last time,
> i am sorry if i offended anyone.
> Regards,
> Matija



All right, I'll give - everyone deserves at least 1 mulligan.

If you really want to discuss TWC, lets start a new thread about it.


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## MJS

Just to expand a bit on what JKS said.  

1) We dont remove threads on request unless there are valid reasons.  Not thinking before posting, is not one of those categories.  That being said, think before you type.  This thread will be staying.

2) Rep abuse is also against the forum rules.  If someone is having issues with a member, post, etc., report it.

3) As its been noted, theres obviously been some misunderstanding.  Thats what happens at times, when we're reading what people are trying to say, vs actually hearing it.  This thread still has some potential, so perhaps the misunderstandings can be cleared up and the thread can be brought back to the right track.


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## Svemocn1vidar

The problem lies in me not naming the thread in a proper way. Perhaps "My issues with some parts of TWC and your honest opinions?"
I received so much flame today,i can't think straight anymore. And i actually like TWC in a strange way.. meh..


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## Eric_H

My honest opinion on TWC - I'll bet it did come from Yip Man.

Their clan seems more willing than most to put themselves out there on video and in competition - I respect that. You get a lot of grief the minute you put anything out on the net.

Some people tried to put out there that TWC was watered down HFY a few years back - which is utter rubbish. The two systems don't work the same, but share some similarities, same as the Chun Wa Shun style also coming from Yip Man. Its all WC in the end.

Sadly, I have never had the chance to go hands on with anyone from TWC but would like to given the chance.


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## Svemocn1vidar

Sifu from Serbia,good man,hard worker!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQNSjqEYR8&feature=channel_video_title


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## geezer

Eric_H said:


> You do not know me and have no idea who i know. Knowing supposed "gold medalists" doesn't give you any credibility either. As long as there is no proof needed -* I'm also best friends with Batman and Superman* - they rank WAYYY above any gold medalists.



Well, your even superhero buddies are no match for this man's WC! 




BTW, now back to the subject at hand: What bothers me about TWC is _not_ that it takes a different approach. I enjoy seeing diversity in WC... even among Yip Man's successors. Each variation represents a trade-off. For each change, certain advantages may be lost while others may be gained. If the system is sufficiently _tested_, hopefully,  the more effective techniques will eventually become the dominant forms. Or perhaps eventually,  the different branches will continue to diverge and split into completely different systems. Either way, it's called evolution and is a fact of life. 

No, what bothers me are TWC's overblown claims of being the "true, secret art" of GM Yip Man. But, a lot of people make extravagant claims. That's called making a buck, and it's another fact of life! LOL.


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## Jake104

From what I have seen on YouTube it's certainly different from what I Was taught. But so is most of what I see(Since my WC did not come from a Yip Man lineage). My attitude is why not appreciate the differences rather than criticize them. For me if i can use it it's just another tool in my bag . So what if it was from TWC WSL WT this that or the other. And if it's bs it's bs.

OP, I have alot of respect for people like Sifu Phil Redmond. Hes out there testing his skills. I would sure like to see more of that and less debating . Seems like this has been lost over the last 40 50 years. From what I understand WSl was undefeated. Was that Internet debating or actual fighting. Pretty sure it was the latter. So if he could do it why can't we? Rules? 

Jake


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## Grenadier

Different people will infuse different things into a "classical" system.  This has been going on for many years, in many systems, and it's really nothing unusual.  

For example, the founder of a system that I trained in, was under Ohtsuka Shihan, in the "classical" Wado Ryu style.  When he broke away, and went on his own, he infused (or re-infused?) much of the Shotokan Karate system into the Wado Ryu Karate system that he learned, and called it something else.  

Some people from the classical Wado system criticized him for breaking away, claiming that he was not in accordance with what Ohtsuka Shihan taught.  Some critcized him for doing away with much of the "softer" side of Wado Ryu, claiming that he was watering down the system.  

His response was simply this, that Ohtsuka Shihan stated that the Wado Ryu system was not complete, and that he encouraged his students to "complete the system."  

I can't argue with the results, since his legacy still lives on, and the senior instructors that remained have produced on of the largest organizations in Hawaii.  They produce many excellent students, including several who are on the US National team.  


Bottom line: If you don't like the hybridization that goes on in a particular school, then that's fine.  You're always free to seek out a non-hybridized school, if that what makes you feel complete.  You are not wrong for wanting to seek a school closer to the original, and I am not wrong for finding a hybridized school to be a good one, if they teach good martial arts.


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## wtxs

Svemocn1vidar said:


> The problem lies in me not naming the thread in a proper way. Perhaps "My issues with some parts of TWC and your honest opinions?"
> I received so much flame today,i can't think straight anymore. And i actually like TWC in a strange way.. meh..



Think of your time on this forum as earning your rite of passage ... trail by fire if you will, we all had emerged for the better and learned how to share our knowledge.

So please stick around, you'll be surprise what can be learned from us old farts, and we are not so set in our ways not to at least open up to new ideas.

For what is worth, IMHO WC is WC no matter what lineage,where and when they come from, they all follow the same core concept.


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## Eric_H

Jake104 said:


> From what I have seen on YouTube it's certainly different from what I Was taught. But so is most of what I see(Since my WC did not come from a Yip Man lineage).



Hey Jake, were you a HFY guy? As far as I know we're the only non-yip folks in AZ.


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## Jake104

Eric_H said:


> Hey Jake, were you a HFY guy? As far as I know we're the only non-yip folks in AZ.



No, Im originally from Ca . Where I studied WC during the 90's. The lineage was Chan Yui Man. Nothing fancy, small school, pay as go garage WC. I was young and lineage didn't really mean much to me back then, or now for that matter. I enjoy them all. 

Jake


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## wtxs

Jake104 said:


> No, Im originally from Ca . Where I studied WC during the 90's. The lineage was Chan Yui Man. Nothing fancy, small school, pay as go garage WC. I was young and lineage didn't really mean much to me back then, or now for that matter. I enjoy them all.
> 
> Jake



Welcome Jake. We should all have your kind of attitude.


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## Jake104

Thanks. Gad to be here .


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## Jake104

Thanks. Glad to be here .


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## zepedawingchun

Jake104 said:


> No, Im originally from Ca . Where I studied WC during the 90's. The lineage was Chan Yui Man. Nothing fancy, small school, pay as go garage WC. I was young and lineage didn't really mean much to me back then, or now for that matter. I enjoy them all.
> 
> Jake


 
Chan Yiu Man (Chan Yiu Min son of Chan Wah Shun?).  Could you give a bit more of your lineage up and down?  Really interested since my lineage isn't Yip Man as a majority of Wing Chun pratitioners are.


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## wtxs

zepedawingchun said:


> Chan Yiu Man (Chan Yiu Min son of Chan Wah Shun?).  Could you give a bit more of your lineage up and down?  Really interested since my lineage isn't Yip Man as a majority of Wing Chun pratitioners are.



Same here Zapeda, I haven't the foggiest idea what my lineage is, guess we could call ourselves there bast@&d sons of WC ... if someone haven't already claimed that title.


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## Xue Sheng

WELL!!!

I know MY lineage&#8230;but&#8230;umm&#8230;I&#8230; aaa..but....you see...I...ummm... don&#8217;t train it as much as aaaaa&#8230;..well&#8230; you do&#8230; OH is that the time&#8230;gotta go


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## wtxs

Xue Sheng said:


> WELL!!!
> 
> I know MY lineagebutummI aaa..but....you see...I...ummm... dont train it as much as aaaaa..well you do OH is that the timegotta go



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Jake104

zepedawingchun said:


> Chan Yiu Man (Chan Yiu Min son of Chan Wah Shun?).  Could you give a bit more of your lineage up and down?  Really interested since my lineage isn't Yip Man as a majority of Wing Chun pratitioners are.



Yes , that would be him. I trained in his garage.:BSmeter: all I'm gonna say about my lineage Is I trained this pacticular lineage during the 90's . Our Sigung was involved in a violent crime and is deceased . So out of respect to all of the families involved. I will not say anymore or will i drag his name or anyone else through the mud. If this makes me any less creditable then so be it. I train 7 days a week with my son. I live in Gilbert az  of Val vista and the 60 . I would love to train with others in the area . If I'm coming off defensive i apologize I forgot to take my meds this morning.

Jake


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## Domino

Svemocn1vidar said:


> It does to me? Why would i ask something or start a thread for that matter if other people opinion matters not?
> I merely wished to see some opinions on things i mentioned were minor flaws of the system. It's speed and power are obvious. I've trained with,am friends with,and have been to seminars with TWC people.
> Some of them even agreed on my argument that they lack chi sao relaxation and visible feats. My opinion is made up,say you? Ok then,perhaps i made all this up. I've stated only the things i've seen with my own eyes.


 
Everyone has opinions but i think the concensus is that you could've searched for the million other threads that were started a while ago, rather than starting another one.


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## zepedawingchun

wtxs said:


> Same here Zapeda, I haven't the foggiest idea what my lineage is, guess we could call ourselves there bast@&d sons of WC ... if someone haven't already claimed that title.


 
Someone has already claimed that title.  And refuses to name his lineage even though they know their elders.  I guess he's ashamed of his lineage.

As for me, I know my lineage and proud to list is:

Zepeda - Sifu Francis Fong - Sigung Jiu Wan - Sigung Jiu Chow - Sigung Chan Yiu Min - Sigung Chan Wah Shun - Sigung Leung Jan

Jake104, since you mentioned Chan Yiu Min, there's a bit of my lineage for you.  We are related is some way, if you are truely from someone in the Chan Yiu Min lineage.  Jiu Chow was Jiu Wan's uncle.  But it is stated Jiu Wan also studied under his uncle's sifu, Chan Yiu Min.

Some of Yip Man's students say Jiu Wan was also a student of Yip Man.  But that is incorrect.  Jiu Wan was a gung fu nephew to Yip Man.  When Jiu Wan moved to Hong Kong, Yip Man was already established.  And also being the Grandmaster of Wing Chun, Jiu Wan respected him as head of the Wing Chun clans and followed.  Yip Man and Jiu Wan were very close during the HK years.  It has been written that they dined together often and spent many hours daily talking and such.  When Jiu Wan opened a school, with Yip Man's blessing, the Grandmaster even posted a sign outside the door stating 'Wing Chun the pure tradition'.  The only school ever thus honored by the late Grandmaster.  Jiu Wan died a year after Yip Man.

Jiu Wan has a few students still alive and teaching.  Of course, my Sifu, Francis Fong and Jason Lau (Atlanta, GA), Richard Chen (last I heard under Moy Yat in Atlanta), Hung Yuen Chow (Oregon), Fred Kwok (Vancouver, BC) and Roland Wong (Canada).  There is also his son, Jiu Wong (Jiu Hung Quin in HK) and his second disciple Guy Lai (not sure if he's alive or dead).  And there are others, but those are the most notable ones.


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## Eric_H

Jake104 said:


> Yes , that would be him. I trained in his garage.:BSmeter: all I'm gonna say about my lineage Is I trained this pacticular lineage during the 90's . Our Sigung was involved in a violent crime and is deceased . So out of respect to all of the families involved. I will not say anymore or will i drag his name or anyone else through the mud. If this makes me any less creditable then so be it. I train 7 days a week with my son. I live in Gilbert az  of Val vista and the 60 . I would love to train with others in the area . If I'm coming off defensive i apologize I forgot to take my meds this morning.
> 
> Jake



Jake,

I'm not too far from you, I live by "the islands" neighborhood around warner and cooper. Maybe we could meet up at freestone park and train a bit, send me a PM if you're interested.


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## Jake104

The system I learned has alot of similarities to YM lineages. Some slight differences in the forms some extra forms. Like in the SLT 4th 5th 6th, 7th sections have slight variations. For example, 4th section at beginning we heung before the gum Saos. In the 5th section we don't pak to the side. We go up and slightly above the head, then to opposite side, then  back to center, then high side palm. In the 6th section we do not tan gan. We do high gan and then low gan to center not the side. Then the bong section. We bong then roll elbow, and palm low, groin . We have the Sap Lok Gerk Fat form very similar to Lee Shing lineage. Another form I havent seen anywhere else is a 8 directional footwork form. I don't remember what that's called. Our Luk Dim Boon Kwun was pretty extensive. Not so much the form but we spent alot of time learning and practicing the pole. Alot of techniques. A whole level just for the pole. Like I already told Zepada . We focused alot on ranges . All ranges . I feel just as comfortable outside as i do on the inside . We have alot of footwork. If I were to fight a WC guy. I would keep him on the outside and frustrate the he'll out of him until I earn the right to come in or I feel like coming in. Please spare me the comment like" thats not wing chun" wing chun is close combat" you suck". I'd rather be a shown . Lol. Maybe I spend to much time on that other forum. People here are much nicer right? Lol 

Eric sounds good I'm on Val vista and Warner I'll pm you

Jake


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## Nabakatsu

Too bad I wasn't out there, I'd be curious to see some of your outside ranged footwork and concepts come into play, let alone the art applied from a non Yip Man source, at/on me.
I may be coming out to AZ with my gf for her brothers higherschool graduation, and to bring her back home in general.. was hoping to meet a few people from the forums here.
Thanks for sharing in any event!


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## Jake104

Nabakatsu said:


> Too bad I wasn't out there, I'd be curious to see some of your outside ranged footwork and concepts come into play, let alone the art applied from a non Yip Man source, at/on me.
> I may be coming out to AZ with my gf for her brothers higherschool graduation, and to bring her back home in general.. was hoping to meet a few people from the forums here.
> Thanks for sharing in any event!



Same goes for me . I'd like to see how the YM  concepts come into play against mine. I'd love to learn and test my WC . Can I ask what YM lineage you come from. Or since I wont tell mine you won't tell me yours  Anyway PM me and I will give you my number.
Ps bring your pads

Jake


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## Nabakatsu

I only have some small gloves atm, a mouth guard.. soon adding a cup/shinpads to my gear..
I'm in EBMAS, so, I'm lineage would go:
Yip Man > Leung Ting > Keith Kernschpect > Emin Boztepe 
I have a hard time imaging a intermediate level student being unable to close the distance, if he waits for you to commit, that should be his window to get close to ya, and stay close.
In any event, I'm not quite at that level myself, though my experiences sparring are getting me closer. I'll letcha know when I'm in AZ, if that indeed ends up happening. Cheers!


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## Jake104

I got the same plus head gear no shin pads. I think it will be fun. Not sure when you are coming out this way, but it will be getting warm here in  May  and hot the more we go into summer. Let me know.

Jake


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## geezer

Eric_H said:


> Jake,
> 
> I'm not too far from you, I live by "the islands" neighborhood around warner and cooper. Maybe we could meet up at freestone park and train a bit, send me a PM if you're interested.


 
Eric, most Saturdays I head out to the E. Valley from Central Phoenix to train Eskrima. Afterwards, I'd be up for joining in to do some WC too. Jake and I played a bit last Sat. and had a great time, so if you guys want to share, count me in. I'll PM you so we can keep in touch. --Steve


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## Eric_H

Steve,

Sounds good to me!


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## Asmo

zepedawingchun said:


> Someone has already claimed that title.  And refuses to name his lineage even though they know their elders.  I guess he's ashamed of his lineage.
> 
> As for me, I know my lineage and proud to list is:
> 
> Zepeda - Sifu Francis Fong - Sigung Jiu Wan - Sigung Jiu Chow - Sigung Chan Yiu Min - Sigung Chan Wah Shun - Sigung Leung Jan
> 
> Jake104, since you mentioned Chan Yiu Min, there's a bit of my lineage for you.  We are related is some way, if you are truely from someone in the Chan Yiu Min lineage.  Jiu Chow was Jiu Wan's uncle.  But it is stated Jiu Wan also studied under his uncle's sifu, Chan Yiu Min.
> 
> Some of Yip Man's students say Jiu Wan was also a student of Yip Man.  But that is incorrect.  Jiu Wan was a gung fu nephew to Yip Man.  When Jiu Wan moved to Hong Kong, Yip Man was already established.  And also being the Grandmaster of Wing Chun, Jiu Wan respected him as head of the Wing Chun clans and followed.  Yip Man and Jiu Wan were very close during the HK years.  It has been written that they dined together often and spent many hours daily talking and such.  When Jiu Wan opened a school, with Yip Man's blessing, the Grandmaster even posted a sign outside the door stating 'Wing Chun the pure tradition'.  The only school ever thus honored by the late Grandmaster.  Jiu Wan died a year after Yip Man.
> 
> Jiu Wan has a few students still alive and teaching.  Of course, my Sifu, Francis Fong and Jason Lau (Atlanta, GA), Richard Chen (last I heard under Moy Yat in Atlanta), Hung Yuen Chow (Oregon), Fred Kwok (Vancouver, BC) and Roland Wong (Canada).  There is also his son, Jiu Wong (Jiu Hung Quin in HK) and his second disciple Guy Lai (not sure if he's alive or dead).  And there are others, but those are the most notable ones.



Guy Lai Ying Chau (I'm unsure if that's the correct romanisation) is still alive, I think he most recently instructed some actors for another Wing Chun film. 

BTW - if it's of any interest, Jiu Wan also taught a few more movie actors, Tommy Tam Fuk Wing (Ti Lung/Dik Lung) and Lee Hoi Sang.


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## zepedawingchun

Asmo said:


> Guy Lai Ying Chau (I'm unsure if that's the correct romanisation) is still alive, I think he most recently instructed some actors for another Wing Chun film.
> 
> BTW - if it's of any interest, Jiu Wan also taught a few more movie actors, Tommy Tam Fuk Wing (Ti Lung/Dik Lung) and Lee Hoi Sang.


 
I knew he taught a couple of actors, but didn't have access to their names.  Thanks.  You seem to know a bit about SiGung Jiu Wan, may I ask how?  Trained with one of his students possibly?  If you don't want to say publicly I understand.  You can PM me if you like.


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## Asmo

zepedawingchun said:


> I knew he taught a couple of actors, but didn't have access to their names.  Thanks.  You seem to know a bit about SiGung Jiu Wan, may I ask how?  Trained with one of his students possibly?  If you don't want to say publicly I understand.  You can PM me if you like.



I don't mind saying publicly but I'll pm you as it may lead the post off track.


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## Deanoe41441

While I acknowledge your honest opinion I would ask you do further research before making claims. Before I chose Traditional Wing Chun I did weeks of Reseach hunting to find the truth. I concluded with the story the Grandmaster Cheung has told. There are too many letters and supporting evidence to deny William Cheung as a closed door student of Ip Man. I do not recognize Ip Chun because he has been caught in too many lies. He was never taught Wing Chun by Ip Man his mother took him away because she hated that Ip Man was consumed with Martial Arts and he was consorting with a prostitute whom got him addicted to Opium.


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## paitingman

geezer said:


> Well, your even superhero buddies are no match for this man's WC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, now back to the subject at hand: What bothers me about TWC is _not_ that it takes a different approach. I enjoy seeing diversity in WC... even among Yip Man's successors. Each variation represents a trade-off. For each change, certain advantages may be lost while others may be gained. If the system is sufficiently _tested_, hopefully,  the more effective techniques will eventually become the dominant forms. Or perhaps eventually,  the different branches will continue to diverge and split into completely different systems. Either way, it's called evolution and is a fact of life.
> 
> No, what bothers me are TWC's overblown claims of being the "true, secret art" of GM Yip Man. But, a lot of people make extravagant claims. That's called making a buck, and it's another fact of life! LOL.


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not lol.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Deanoe41441 said:


> While I acknowledge your honest opinion I would ask you do further research before making claims. Before I chose Traditional Wing Chun I did weeks of Reseach hunting to find the truth. I concluded with the story the Grandmaster Cheung has told. There are too many letters and supporting evidence to deny William Cheung as a closed door student of Ip Man. I do not recognize Ip Chun because he has been caught in too many lies. He was never taught Wing Chun by Ip Man his mother took him away because she hated that Ip Man was consumed with Martial Arts and he was consorting with a prostitute whom got him addicted to Opium.


Who are you replying to? This is a 7 year old thread...most of the posters are no longer on this site.


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## geezer

paitingman said:


> I can't tell if you're being *sarcastic* or not lol.



_Neither can I!  _You expect an old man like me to remember that far back?!?  ...Actually, I'm pretty sure I was just being silly, posting that old video by the Windy City WC guys with the dude in the superhero outfit. They seem to appreciate silliness too.


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## geezer

kempodisciple said:


> Who are you replying to? This is a 7 year old thread...most of the posters are no longer on this site.


 
I'm still here! ...mostly.


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