# ninja or sulsa



## hwarang_do_adam

which one is more deadly?


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## Kacey

That's like asking which MA is best.  Too much depends on the instructor, the student, the situation, and a wide list of other variables.


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## hwarang_do_adam

which style is more comprehensive. i don't know very much about sulsa history


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## Doc_Jude

Ninjutsu, of course.


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## tellner

It's more like Spiderman vs. Green Lantern. We're essentially talking about works of fiction here.


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## Xue Sheng

Sulsa!?!?!?

Sorry I read this wrong, I thought it was which was more deadly

ninja or shesulsa and I was voting beyond any shadow of doubt shesulsa


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## shesulsa

Xue Sheng said:


> Sulsa!?!?!?
> 
> Sorry I read this wrong, I thought it was which was more deadly
> 
> ninja or shesulsa and I was voting beyond any shadow of doubt shesulsa


Right on, Xue! :asian:


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## tellner

But of course Pirates are way cooler and way tougher than either of them


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## SageGhost83

Alrighty then...I was under the impression that the Sulsa didn't really exist and that they were another attempt for koreans at revisionist history. You know, like the Samurong? I am pretty sure that they did have their own shadow warriors because every nation and culture had their own groups of spies and the like, however, they probably weren't the Sulsa. Who knows, the koreans pretty much abandoned their martial arts after the peninsula was unified and they didn't care too much about preserving the history of their arts. Ninja or Sulsa? Neither one - they have both been romanticised into something that has little to do with their actual history. Any Sulsa out in here? Educate me if I am wrong or if I have offended. Happy New Years, all!


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## IcemanSK

Those of you who know Korean better than I correct me if I'm wrong, but I rember someone with a good knowledge of the language on this board saying that the word "sulsa" was Korean for diarhea.


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## MBuzzy

Incidentally....the Korea word for Diarrhea is &#49444;&#49324; which is pronounced basically like we say sulsa.  The "u" is pronounced more like an "aww" sound though.  Now I have no idea how the Korean word for Sulsa (martial art) is prounounced or spelled, so I can't compore.  If someone can give me the hangul for that or tell me vaguely how it is pronounced (by a korean) I can tell you if they match.


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## shesulsa

I was taught that if you pronounce the "sul" as you would in the english word "sully," i.e. suhl, you would be saying 'diarrhea.' 

The pronunciation we use is 'sool-sah' - sorry, I cannot provide the hangul.

Intention of transition is ... "Sul" translated to 'technique', "sa" translated to 'person' hence "sulsa" translated to "technician."


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## MBuzzy

Which therefore makes the Martial Art Sulsa into &#49836;&#49324; or &#49696;&#49324; rather than &#49444;&#49324;.....completely changing the meaning.  Sorry, not a form of excrement.....

I honestly know or have heard very little about Sulsa, so if anyone has any more info, that would be appreciated.


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## shesulsa

The verbal history I have received is that the sulsa were quite like the ninja but worked for their king for free rather than as hired assassins. They were the "special forces" of the Silla Army and Hwarang warriors.  And supposedly there were members of the Hwarang order who did not fight, others who did.


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## Omar B

This s the first time I've ever heard of Sulsa but it seems interesting to me.  I would love to find some in depth information about it.  Martial arts nerd I am my interest is piqued anytime I ear about an art that's new to me.


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## SageGhost83

shesulsa said:


> The verbal history I have received is that the sulsa were quite like the ninja but worked for their king for free rather than as hired assassins. They were the "special forces" of the Silla Army and Hwarang warriors. And supposedly there were members of the Hwarang order who did not fight, others who did.


 
I have read a similar history concerning the Sulsa on the internet, too. I just didn't know how much stock to put into it given the historical revisionist problem that we must deal with concerning the KMA. I mean, I would like to believe that it was true because I find the whole stealth/shadow warrior subject to be very interesting, and it would be awesome if it were true. However, I am skeptical concerning any 'official' story concerning KMA (hey, I fell for the whole Taekwondo being 2000 years old thing, I am not about to look stupid again :duh. At the same time, I am quite certain that they did have their own shadow warriors in Korea. Every culture did, even in the west (Shirkers, Knights Templars, Wolfshirts, etc.), and the Japanese do not have a monopoly on the whole stealth/shadow warrior thing. What all of this babbling amounts to is - I think that they did have their own shadow warriors, but I think that the Sulsa may be a nationalist creation to counter the Japanese ninja craze. It still warrants a lot of research, though. Korean shadow warriors? Sounds awesome!


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## kaizasosei

i think that the different forms of martial arts as shadow arts or usual warrior arts is in itself a kind of illusion.  at the end of the day, all that matters is skill and technique.  even in the case of ninjutsu, it may take some uncovering before one penetrates to realize the skill of the ninja.  some skills are so secret hardly  any will even be able to realize. but dealing with the typical arts of the ninja, various skills were honed.  
  in the case of korea, it is my experience that the nation has many people who are highly skilled as well as artistic.  as far as fighting ability and warrior legends go, i always found it interesting to hear of styles where the fighters did not use hands at all. taekwondo is a result of such skills. also, i have heard of warriors in korea that mastered the various sword arts such as twosworded style. to this day, korean bows are one of the best bows around.

j


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## tellner

The pointy end of the secret police worked for the king for free? :BSmeter:

These kind of things take money. Lots of money. People need to be trained. They need equipment. They need supplies. They need clothes for their children, food, land, houses, livestock, and so on. By way of comparison single mounted warrior and his retinue took the entire agricultural surplus of a European village. And these guys did all that and more and in secret for nothing? That's worse than unbelievable. It's an insult to the reader's intelligence. Besides, no king would trust people like that. He'd want them on the payroll, depending on his money. Loyalty is nice, but gold pays the bills, and free labor goes away when money is tight.

I'll bet plenty of six to five or even seven to ten that these fairy tales started getting traction after the ninja craze started. "They have ninja? We have  Super Good Guy Ninja!"


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## arnisador

tellner said:


> I'll bet plenty of six to five or even seven to ten that these fairy tales started getting traction after the ninja craze started. "They have ninja? We have  Super Good Guy Ninja!"



I've heard it suggested that the modern attribution of ninja-like skills to the Sulsa began with the promotion of Michael Echanis as a Hwa Rang Do super-soldier (indeed, much as the Hwa Rang themselves were recast by the Lee brothers). Indeed, a quick check of the web shows a dearth of (relevant) links to Sulsa that aren't HRD-related.


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## shesulsa

arnisador said:


> I've heard it suggested that the modern attribution of ninja-like skills to the Sulsa began with the promotion of Michael Echanis as a Hwa Rang Do super-soldier (indeed, much as the Hwa Rang themselves were recast by the Lee brothers). Indeed, a quick check of the web shows a dearth of (relevant) links to Sulsa that aren't HRD-related.


Indeed - I've been hard-pressed to find anything more also.  Though I must state that my Korean is virtually non-existent I have not done the faithful research others here have. I have never viewed the Hwarang Segi nor the Samguk Segi nor their partial translations (I think only one English copy exists of both - verification from others, please?)

*edited to add*

In fact - it was a google on "sulsa" that led me to this site on that fateful May day in 2004.


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## tellner

No. That's not "vehemently attacking". That's just exposing a pretty obvious piece of BS. Elite specialized troops who work for free? No. Not happening. People need to eat. Their families need to eat. The organizations simply could not survive for any length of time otherwise. And make no mistake, it would be a full time job for those actively involved plus the people doing the training, keeping supplies maintained and so on.

I have no doubt that people variously known as sulsa existed. But that particular story is bogus. 

And I'm very suspicious when anyone says "Our guys were just like theirs but even better and patriotic to boot." That goes double when "theirs" are already romanticized and fictionalized out of all recognition.

It has to be treated as myth not history.


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## shesulsa

tellner said:


> Elite specialized troops who work for free? No. Not happening. People need to eat. Their families need to eat.





			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> The non-military and some military hwarang were nobility and most were of higher society, hence they didn't really need a lot of money - though one can reasonably conclude certainly they enjoyed *some* recognition or appreciative pittance in one form or another.


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## SageGhost83

...Wow, ninja versus sulsa. Well, we now know that they both have one thing in common other than being shadow warriors - they are equally controversial and lend themselves to some pretty heated disagreements in internet forums :jediduel:. It is starting to turn into the ninjutsu area in here. Shesulsa, you gave the history that you were taught, and that is all that you can really do, unless you actually lived back then and can verify everything they did beyond the shadow of a doubt. Who knows if any of these *histories* are accurate - there is a lot nationalism and revisionism in the far east. Take a look at Japanese history books concerning WW2 to see what I mean, and that is one of the more obvious examples...Tellner, I agree - It is a little suspicious that the sulsa popped up out of nowhere after the japanese ninja craze, practice hwarangdo, and look just like japanese ninjas...I'm just saying, given the trend within KMA, it seems really suspicious. The truth behind the actual shadow warriors of korea is mostly lost in the sands of time by now. Research will probably reveal some things, but they would probably only give us a small part of the picture. It would still be fun, though (says the nerd in me ).


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## zDom

Hmm so if the BS is roughly equal on either side, then it becomes simple to answer: Sulsa!

because 

Korean > Japanese


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## SageGhost83

zDom said:


> Hmm so if the BS is roughly equal on either side, then it becomes simple to answer: Sulsa!
> 
> because
> 
> Korean > Japanese


 
:lfao:


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## Doc_Jude

> Korean > Japanese



Well, they do have Sinanju...


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## shesulsa

zDom said:


> Hmm so if the BS is roughly equal on either side, then it becomes simple to answer: Sulsa!
> 
> because
> 
> Korean > Japanese


:lol2:


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## SageGhost83

Well, some old dude is going to suddenly emerge from the Korean countryside and make claims that he is the last living descendant of and the foremost authority on the Sulsa (with no paperwork to back it up). Then he will randomly take in an American student and teach him the ways of Sulsa, and that American student will earn his black belt(s) and write many books that eager americans will gladly pick up to satiate their thirst for cool Sulsa stuff. Eventually the American will go his own way and teach his own brand of Modern Sulsado or whatever, and major home study courses will pop up all over the internet for people who want to become Sulsa in the comfort of their own homes. It will be called BUJINKWAN, and it will be the 90,000 year old art that captures the spirit of modern day Korea. Next, Bob Hubbard is going to create a new Sulsa room on the forums so that people can join MT just to get into nasty arguments with each other and get banned. The best part of all? After the BUJINKWAN is well established, it will turn around and claim that Hatsumi and the BUJINKAN copied them and are jealous of the Korean Martial Art. No wait, the Korean "Stealth" Martial Art, :lol:. They will even have their own Ashida Kim and claim that the original Ashida Kim copied the Korean version!!! There will be a Korean Rick Tew who creates his own overhyped version of American Sulsado, and there will be a Korean Frank Dux who will make millions of unverifiable claims. Good times, good times! (Btw, this was a joke, people! Don't go getting all offended by what was written here. It is called tongue-in-cheek).


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## shesulsa

Weirder things have happened.  Oh ... wait ...


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## Carol

SageGhost83 said:


> Well, some old dude is going to suddenly emerge from the Korean countryside and make claims that he is the last living descendant of and the foremost authority on the Sulsa (with no paperwork to back it up). Then he will randomly take in an American student and teach him the ways of Sulsa, and that American student will earn his black belt(s) and write many books that eager americans will gladly pick up to satiate their thirst for cool Sulsa stuff. Eventually the American will go his own way and teach his own brand of Modern Sulsado or whatever, and major home study courses will pop up all over the internet for people who want to become Sulsa in the comfort of their own homes. It will be called BUJINKWAN, and it will be the 90,000 year old art that captures the spirit of modern day Korea. Next, Bob Hubbard is going to create a new Sulsa room on the forums so that people can join MT just to get into nasty arguments with each other and get banned. The best part of all? After the BUJINKWAN is well established, it will turn around and claim that Hatsumi and the BUJINKAN copied them and are jealous of the Korean Martial Art. No wait, the Korean "Stealth" Martial Art, :lol:. They will even have their own Ashida Kim and claim that the original Ashida Kim copied the Korean version!!! There will be a Korean Rick Tew who creates his own overhyped version of American Sulsado, and there will be a Korean Frank Dux who will make millions of unverifiable claims. Good times, good times! (Btw, this was a joke, people! Don't go getting all offended by what was written here. It is called tongue-in-cheek).



Don't forget the movies and the Second Coming of Real Ultimate Power... :lfao:


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## Omar B

Yeah, lets start a new movie series, as opposed to American Ninja we can do american Sulsa!


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## tellner

All the laughter and "I'm being tongue in cheek" aside there is a bit of truth. Japan and China have long continuous martial traditions that allow modern styles to assert a connection to the past or the best of the past or the modern evolution of the Great Men of Old. There are a lot or ridiculous stories that often end up "...and that's why _*we*_ are the true heirs of Shaolin". There's still been an unbroken process of evolution. Modern practitioners can claim a connection to older and presumably better days even if they have to do some vigorous hand waving.

Korea's was wiped out and had to be rebuilt from almost from scratch. That's why there's been such a huge lot of revisionist history and even more tenuous appeals to the glorious past. It doesn't mean that today's product is any better or worse than anyone else's. It does mean that the "traditional" styles' connections are tenuous at best and have to be viewed with extreme skepticism, especially given the Korean government's propensity to fabricate for purposes of nationalism. So a few ambiguous by the way references to a group a thousand years ago and a couple statues become a full blown unbroken Hwarang martial tradition that is bigger and better than anyone else's. Cave paintings "prove" that the government's martial art is 2000 years old. And so on.

Everyone does this kind of thing. Like I said, scratch official histories of a lot of Chinese martial arts and the shiny paint comes off. And don't get me started on the mythology of Southeast Asian martial arts. They all have to be looked at as creation myths, not factual accounts.


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## Xue Sheng

tellner said:


> All the laughter and "I'm being tongue in cheek" aside there is a bit of truth. Japan and China have long continuous martial traditions that allow modern styles to assert a connection to the past or the best of the past or the modern evolution of the Great Men of Old. There are a lot or ridiculous stories that often end up "...and that's why _*we*_ are the true heirs of Shaolin". There's still been an unbroken process of evolution. Modern practitioners can claim a connection to older and presumably better days even if they have to do some vigorous hand waving.
> 
> Korea's was wiped out and had to be rebuilt from almost from scratch. That's why there's been such a huge lot of revisionist history and even more tenuous appeals to the glorious past. It doesn't mean that today's product is any better or worse than anyone else's. It does mean that the "traditional" styles' connections are tenuous at best and have to be viewed with extreme skepticism, especially given the Korean government's propensity to fabricate for purposes of nationalism. So a few ambiguous by the way references to a group a thousand years ago and a couple statues become a full blown unbroken Hwarang martial tradition that is bigger and better than anyone else's. Cave paintings "prove" that the government's martial art is 2000 years old. And so on.
> 
> Everyone does this kind of thing. Like I said, scratch official histories of a lot of Chinese martial arts and the shiny paint comes off. And don't get me started on the mythology of Southeast Asian martial arts. They all have to be looked at as creation myths, not factual accounts.


 
tellner

I am sensing some hostility here toward Chinese martial arts, and this is not the first of your posts I have felt this.

I can claim lineage all the way back to Chen Wangting, but it does not mean a thing if I don't train. 

I may even be able to claim lineage to Li Cunyi but that is absolutely silly because I do not train Xingyiquan any longer.

I can also claim lineage to whoever the big founder of TKD was too but it is equally as meaningless since I have not done TKD in years.

There are good and bad lineage claims and there are good and bad CMA practitioners and not all actually very few that truely train CMA claim lineage to Shaolin.

Hmmm maybe I could though I did do Long fist a few years ago.... but then that too would be extremely silly

Oh but wait... I can claim lineage to EVERYBODY in the CMA past... I train SANDA and it is kinda sorta an amalgam of them all (insert diabolical laughter here)

Point, lineage is nice to know in CMA and at times it is very good a showing up frauds (like the guy in England that claimed inside student status to a Chen family member for marketing purposes when in reality that Chen family member ONLY taught other Chen family members). Other than that it does not equate to skill nor is it really all that important.


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## tellner

Hostility towards Chinese martial arts? No, not at all. Hostility towards the human tendency to make up self-serving nonsense and pass it off as truth? Certainly. The Chinese are no more or less prone to it than anyone. And martial arts are more prone to it than many fields.

In this case I'm saying that the while the Chinese, Japanese and so on have that trait there is a clearer connection in those countries between the past and the present. One can make a case that many or most of the Chinese martial arts are descended from older styles in a more or less unbroken chain of evolution, transmission and recombination. People will make up stories that make their own personal stuff seem more important or more closely tied to a mythical Golden Age.

The thrust here is that it is easier for countries which have an uninterrupted chain of transmission. China is one of couple oldest, so it was mentioned as an example. Korea got vivisected, so its connections are more mythical and less concrete. I mentioned China, Japan and Southeast Asia and their martial arts' creation myths because it would be wrong to single out one country for something that's depressingly common everywhere.


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## Xue Sheng

tellner said:


> Hostility towards Chinese martial arts? No, not at all. Hostility towards the human tendency to make up self-serving nonsense and pass it off as truth? Certainly. The Chinese are no more or less prone to it than anyone. And martial arts are more prone to it than many fields.
> 
> In this case I'm saying that the while the Chinese, Japanese and so on have that trait there is a clearer connection in those countries between the past and the present. One can make a case that many or most of the Chinese martial arts are descended from older styles in a more or less unbroken chain of evolution, transmission and recombination. People will make up stories that make their own personal stuff seem more important or more closely tied to a mythical Golden Age.
> 
> The thrust here is that it is easier for countries which have an uninterrupted chain of transmission. China is one of couple oldest, so it was mentioned as an example. Korea got vivisected, so its connections are more mythical and less concrete. I mentioned China, Japan and Southeast Asia and their martial arts' creation myths because it would be wrong to single out one country for something that's depressingly common everywhere.


 
Well I&#8217;m still claiming lineage to Shaolin because the guy that taught it to me called it Shaolin Long Fist and was from China and grew up in Shandong Province and was born in Qufu where Confucius was born and Confucius was born in 551 BC. And Shaolin, according to the biographies of Eminent Monks (AD 645) by Dàoxu&#257;n, the Shaolin Monastery was built on the north side of Shaoshi, the western peak of Mount Song, one of the Sacred Mountains of China, by Emperor Xiaowen of the Northern Wei Dynasty sometime during the Tang Dynasty (618AD - 907AD). Mount Song (aka Song Shan) and is located in Henan province. 

Now you see Henan and Shandong are right next to each other and since Shaolin comes after Confucius and it is likely, seeing as it is in China, that Confucius had some influence on Shaolin and since the sifu who taught this from me was actually born in Qufu as well I think he is likely the true lineage holder of Shaolin (even though he learned Shaolin Long Fist in a Physical Education University) since he was born in the same town as Confucius who predates Shaolin and it is just a hop, skip and a jump with a bit of a train ride and then another hop, skip, jog and a jump from Qufu to Shaolin...so I imagine now it is all clear to you. 

I now understand what you were saying and agree.


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## arnisador

My mathematical lineage goes back through L. Euler to G. Leibniz.

The lineage game is fun, but pointless. It's like claiming that those from Japan are necessarily better at JMAs, etc. While knowing the culture and history can be helpful, it's no guarantee either way.

Anyway, I agree with the skepticism over the Sulsa, esp. with their appearance on the Western scene after the ninja craze started. But surely some objective historian in (or over) Korea knows the truth?


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## SageGhost83

arnisador said:


> My mathematical lineage goes back through L. Euler to G. Leibniz.
> 
> The lineage game is fun, but pointless. It's like claiming that those from Japan are necessarily better at JMAs, etc. While knowing the culture and history can be helpful, it's no guarantee either way.
> 
> Anyway, I agree with the skepticism over the Sulsa, esp. with their appearance on the Western scene after the ninja craze started. But surely some objective historian in (or over) Korea knows the truth?


 
Funny you say that. I always regarded lineage as more of a political phenomenon than an actual barometer of skill. It is not like you are actually going to be better or more skilled than someone else just because you belong to a certain lineage. Heck, I trained Wing Chun under Sifu Rod Hillegrass who was a student of Sifu Randy Williams who was a student of Bruce Lee, but that doesn't make me better than anyone in the MT community. Nothing wrong with knowing one's lineage. It's just that some people take it too far and turn it into a form of ego-masturbation.


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## SageGhost83

And don't forget about the Teenage Mutant Sulsa Tortoises, who were trained by a mouse named master blister. They must defeat the evil toe clan that is led by the Slicer and his ally from Dimension Y, Koring. They also have two animal henchmen - Lean wit it and Rock wit it. It is an original Korean cartoon that will appeal the hip youth and get people interested in Sulsado :lol2:.


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## zDom

It is equally absurd, however, to believe that just because the Japanese outlawed martial arts in Korea during their occupation that all martial art knowledge was lost.

"No, son, I will NOT teach you how to punch! It is against the law!" 

No, there isn't any documentation, and some of the stories of "secret training" are downright silly ...

but do you REALLY believe that ALL indigeneous martial art knowledge vanished from the peninsula during the occupation?


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## Omar B

They didnt stop anything, they just trained in my backyard for a few years.


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## SageGhost83

zDom said:


> but do you REALLY believe that ALL indigeneous martial art knowledge vanished from the peninsula during the occupation?


 
Yes, because we are the west and if we don't know about them then they are either fake or they don't exist anymore . Okay, let me stop goofing off - it is kind of hard given the topic of the thread. I think that *something* survived the occupation and I agree with you that it would be absurd to think that *everything* was wiped out. Also remember that we only have access to roughly half of the country. I am pretty sure that the North Koreans wouldn't like us searching around their neck of the woods for clues concerning the indigenous arts. Who knows what we'd find up there concerning KMA, maybe some lost manuals or artifacts or something. Perhaps practictioners of whatever survived chose to keep their knowledge to themselves? Or maybe they didn't survive the Korean war and their knowledge died with them? Until they reunify, we are only left with half of the equation, at best. I seriously doubt, however, that what we practice today is connected with the indigenous arts. I doubt it, but that is only coming from my own limited knowledge of Korea. As always, I could be wrong...


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## SageGhost83

Of course, you could always ask the Korean version of Ashida Kim :lol:.


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## Omar B

SageGhost83 said:


> Of course, you could always ask the Korean version of Ashida Kim :lol:.



He's the Sulsiest.


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## arnisador

zDom said:


> but do you REALLY believe that ALL indigeneous martial art knowledge vanished from the peninsula during the occupation?



On the one hand, I grant that that doesn't seem plausible, and in my gut I've never truly believed it...on the other hand, where are the authentic Native American arts? Look at how few African arts survive. Arts die out--it happens.

There's just not much evidence of Korean arts surviving in other than document form--pictures passed down from earlier times, recreated in the way Pankration has been.


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## Xue Sheng

shesulsa said:


> You know, folks, even Joo Bang Lee has stated that many of the monestaries in China were attended by Korean monks.
> 
> Arts have been shared across borders, folks. Come on. You say Potayto and I say Potahto.
> 
> Do you *think* it might be *plausible* that there have been spies who brought training secrets back to their own militaries? Perhaps hundreds or thousands of years ago? And as arts were cultivated on the peninsula and in the north these arts grew? and perhaps were augmented by further recon? I'm sorry, the whole lineage thing just leaves me dry (with all due respect to Xue and others like him).
> 
> When you fight or spar someone, do you take notice of their strengths and weaknesses? their approach to offense and defense? their strategy? Has this ever changed your approach to either the same individual or others? Don't you think you might not be the first person to do so?
> 
> I don't see the necessity of bashing arts, beliefs, oral history, persons sharing these things herein, if we can all just accept that the most likely result is almost definitely what did happen.
> 
> *Dons Forest Gump voice* ... 'And that's all I have to say about thayat."
> 
> *shesulsa voice* ... maybe ...


 
First both Korean and Chinese Monks trained in China that is part of how Buddhism spread.

Second this



shesulsa said:


> I'm sorry, the whole lineage thing just leaves me dry (with all due respect to Xue and others like him



I think you may have the wrong impression of the importance I place on lineage. I like history, particularly Chinese history and a lineage is history. They are also good, as far as CMA is concerned, for exposing frauds on occasion. Other than that they mean little. The fact I may or may not have a good lineage in CMA does not equate to a good or bad fighter. 

I know my Taiji lineage because I found out by accident who my sifu's sifu was and then I started asking a whole lot of questions and doing a whole lot of research in that lineage which lead me to researching a lot of other Taiji families because I like that sort of thing but it means little as to martial arts skill.

On the other hand I am absolutely clueless as to who my Sanda sifu is and it does not matter to me that much and that guy is just plain tough, even without Sanda, with Sanda he is highly skilled and tough as well as a very good fighter and he never talks about his lineage. The the most he has ever said is he will have to ask his sifu the next time he sees him.

Additionally my Taiji sifu never talks about his lineage either he only told me because I was annoying and asked a lot of questions


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## Xue Sheng

shesulsa said:


> I hesitate greatly to so freely criticize its founder


 
:asian:


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## tellner

Oh, yes, Doc Judt, I've told you before. You're not going to drag me into the Ter Linden versus de Thouars unpleasantness. You've tried a couple times. It's the wrong button to try and push. Much as I respect my teacher's teacher I have no interest in continuing the falling out he had with his former friend. If you want to get continue someone else's feud, feel free. Knock yourself out. Do it alone, please.


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## Doc_Jude

tellner said:


> I have no idea if someone named Sera or Serak ever lived. I'm pretty sure about Djut because independent witnesses in Indonesia and the States confirm it. The stories tend to match.
> 
> I know that Sera in various forms is a West Javanese martial art. Other Silat players from other backgrounds say it looks like it has Cimande, Pamacan, maybe some Ciular, and some Chinese influence. They've got the expertise and don't have a horse in the Dutch Indo Horse Race. All of that would make sense. As it's practiced in Bandung - according to more than one person with good connections and experience - it's generally regarded as a Silat system with a healthy amount of Chinese influence, but not so much that it's classed as Kun Tao. That fits with the system as I've learned it.



I assume that you're talking about the six original Serah Juru & not the 12+ that were added via the deThouars?


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## kaizasosei

tellner, you sure are a hard marker. 
i would love to be able to shed some light on the situation, but unfortunately, i don't really know how.

i do admit that i treat all modern ninja spiels as suspect and have little need for any fantasy nor newly thoughtup training.  however, i bet there is some truth to the sulsa story.  dunno about the name even but i believe that cultures have equivalents(give or take) of ninjas all over the world.  
  also, i think it wouldn't be farfetched to think that in the 500 year history of the last ninjaboom, bits and pieces of the socalled ninjaculture of japan at that time were spread to neighboring countries like korea.  

what if an actual historical ninja himself or herself really did move house to korea.??  ---the possibilities are endless...wouldn't want to be making up any stories, but reality is probably more crazy than most stories that could be made up.

still, this has little to do with the issue you all are discussing.  


peace


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## kaizasosei

sorry 2

is it worth it? can it be positive?
 at what expense should one attempt to dethrone certain arts or their proponents?


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## shesulsa

tellner said:


> I don't drink the Pandan-flavored Kool Aid and wouldn't expect you to without some sort of evidence. *You demand that I do and consider anything left in the glass to be an attack on you, your teachers, your martial arts and probably the entire Korean peninsula.*



It seems you have a bad habit of misquoting me. Show me where I said this or stop misquoting me period - it's rude. Show me. Link me.


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## shesulsa

tellner said:


> Oh, yes, Doc Judt, I've told you before. You're not going to drag me into the Ter Linden versus de Thouars unpleasantness. You've tried a couple times. It's the wrong button to try and push. Much as I respect my teacher's teacher I have no interest in continuing the falling out he had with his former friend. If you want to get continue someone else's feud, feel free. Knock yourself out. Do it alone, please.


What was that about sauces for geese and ganders?


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## shesulsa

So perhaps we can bring this back around full circle to the question by the original poster:  "which is more deadly?"

I honestly don't like to think of arts in this manner. The variables involved in making such a judgment are wide - the instructor, that instructor's training/experience combination, how the style is taught, how the teacher teaches, class structure, syllabic content and focus, individual talent and fervor ....

The real depths of fighting arts, killing arts, stealth and combat are delved into by few.

That said ... Kreth's and Cryozombie's demo and instruction were titillating - I enjoyed it very much.  Hwarang_do_adam, if you have the opportunity to witness or trade moves with some bujinkan ninja for fun or on the side, take it.  I think it's fascinating. :asian:


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## Cryozombie

shesulsa said:


> That said ... Kreth's and Cryozombie's demo and instruction were titillating - I enjoyed it very much.  Hwarang_do_adam, if you have the opportunity to witness or trade moves with some bujinkan ninja for fun or on the side, take it.  I think it's fascinating. :asian:



hey I didn't demo anything... I just got thrown around.


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## Kreth

shesulsa said:


> Kreth's and Cryozombie's demo and instruction were titillating


Uh... what happens in Buffalo stays in Buffalo... :uhyeah:



Cryozombie said:


> hey I didn't demo anything... I just got thrown around.


Yeah, but you have such a good pain face... :lol:


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## hwarang_do_adam

hahaha look what i have started. I've created a monster.


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## Grenadier

*Moderator's note:*

Posts dealing with the origins and background of Hwarang Do have been moved to this thread. 

Posts dealing with the loyalty issues of Hwarang Do have been moved to this thread.

Please continue such discussions in their respective threads.  

Thank you!

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## jim777

shesulsa said:


> So perhaps we can bring this back around full circle to the question by the original poster: "which is more deadly?"


 
If it's got habaneros in it, then definitely the salsa. 

(come on, lots of people were thinking it!  )

jim


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## hwarang_do_adam

so i just want to know who took my rep points and why. i liked playing the arcade games


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## SageGhost83

hwarang_do_adam said:


> so i just want to know who took my rep points and why. i liked playing the arcade games


 
Perhaps it was the ninja. Or maybe the Sulsa took them, and now they are "the Korean rep points" :rofl:.


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## Bob Hubbard

hwarang_do_adam said:


> so i just want to know who took my rep points and why. i liked playing the arcade games


Rep points don't effect Arcade access, that's a Supporting member feature. If you're still having problems, please post the specifics in the Support forum.
Thanks!


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## SageGhost83

http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/sulsa.htm


Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Since it is from the ultra-politically-correct Black Belt Magazine you would be wise to take it with a grain of salt. I guess that it is *something* pertaining to the Sulsa. According to the article, you would have to say that ninja were deadlier than sulsa because sulsa wanted to save lives - not take them.


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## SageGhost83

And then there is this: http://www.sul-sa-do.com/

It pretty much speaks for itself...


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## SageGhost83

Does anybody have any other material on the Sulsa to add? Silly threads like this usually are very good for unearthing some hidden treasures.


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