# Pressure point compliance tools for law enforcement.



## Geeba12 (Sep 15, 2008)

Have the Taser and OC sprays eliminated the need for hand held, pressure point compliance tools?


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## jks9199 (Sep 15, 2008)

No.  

It's very simple.  Unless we get some sort of web-shooter gizmo that never fails, we still have to move in and lay hands on a person to arrest them.  Pain compliance is one tool at that point.

But you mention tools...  Which tools are you thinking of?  There's some use in the Kubotan or similar short sticks used to apply pressure more directly than bare hands can do, but the truth is that most of the gadgets I've seen fail on a simple point:  They require extra training, and don't do anything to really improve officer safety or holds, or reduce liability.  The Kubotan, in the right hands, is one of the few exceptions.  It doesn't take up much space, and serves as a good keychain if nothing else.  Training with the Kubotan isn't extensive and complicated, and can be applied to other tools, like a closed expandable baton.

If you're thinking about marketing your newest idea, let me offer my opinion.  If you're not a working cop, and also haven't given it to a bunch of working cops to experiment with and try out... It's probably not all that great an idea.  We're stuck with too much crap designed by well meaning folks who don't know what they're doing; don't waste your time and effort adding another one to the pile.


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## Drac (Sep 15, 2008)

I still carry my Kubotan and I use it frequently..


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## Geeba12 (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks for your input JKS. I'm actually retired from the job, came on in 1985.
I actually do have a new kubotan variation on the market. It is carried by officers in three PD's, a security firm and a large hospital are looking at it also. Agreed with too much garbage on the market. As an academy instructor, I would often see new officers with so much junk on their duty belts that if they fell into a puddle, they would drown. What I came up has more to do with ease of causing a pain response while reducing exact nerve bundle location. In the real world, when people are fighting for their freedom (more often than fighting the police), many factors increase tolerance to pain. Also forget finding that "magic" spot to control them. Input such as yours is part of my research, I value the opinions of those who get their hands dirty.
Be Safe.
SJG


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## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

Geeba12 said:


> I actually do have a new kubotan variation on the market.



Hey, post a pic!


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## Geeba12 (Sep 16, 2008)

arnisador, I'm not sure how to post a picture to be honest. I can offer a website link, but that may violate the rules of the forum. I will have my web designer post a photo soon.
SJG


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## theletch1 (Sep 16, 2008)

Geeba12 said:


> arnisador, I'm not sure how to post a picture to be honest. I can offer a website link, but that may violate the rules of the forum. I will have my web designer post a photo soon.
> SJG


Here's the rules on posting pics and advertising on this site. Hope this helps.


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## jks9199 (Sep 17, 2008)

Geeba12 said:


> Thanks for your input JKS. I'm actually retired from the job, came on in 1985.
> I actually do have a new kubotan variation on the market. It is carried by officers in three PD's, a security firm and a large hospital are looking at it also. Agreed with too much garbage on the market. As an academy instructor, I would often see new officers with so much junk on their duty belts that if they fell into a puddle, they would drown. What I came up has more to do with ease of causing a pain response while reducing exact nerve bundle location. In the real world, when people are fighting for their freedom (more often than fighting the police), many factors increase tolerance to pain. Also forget finding that "magic" spot to control them. Input such as yours is part of my research, I value the opinions of those who get their hands dirty.
> Be Safe.
> SJG


Interesting idea.  Personally... I've just used the unopened ASP in much the same way, so my devil's advocate question becomes why do I need to add your gadget in place of it?  I can always expand the ASP if the pressure point isn't working...  

But it sounds like it's working for some folks, and you're coming from the right background with the right approach.  Keep at it!

Review the ad rules (I'm not linking them again); it may be worth your while to do the few steps needed to meet the advertising requirements here.


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## Geeba12 (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks to all who have given me your opinions and guidance here. I have made the contacts required.
I hope to have information up soon in the appropriate areas so you have a chance to voice your opinions for what I hope will become an integral addition to officers gear.
Be safe all, thanks again.

SJG


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## Geeba12 (Sep 17, 2008)

JKS, the edge focuses minimal user energy via their grip which causes immediate pain to the dermal receptors as well as nerves/nerve bundles. Since the edge is only on one side, moderate pain is just a matter of using the rounded area (as with the kubotan), if aggression escalates, the edge can be rotated very quickly to the target without losing control of the suspect. So in essence it has the same benefits of the kubotan (key's etc), but is longer (allows for two handed reinforcement), a bit "beefier", but still convenient to carry. 
SJG


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 18, 2008)

Geeba12 said:


> Have the Taser and OC sprays eliminated the need for hand held, pressure point compliance tools?


 Need for Hands on control eliminated?  NO!  

Pressure Points are vastly overrated imho, however.

If I want to piss off a drunk enough to make him really want to fight i'll use pressure points.


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## Geeba12 (Sep 18, 2008)

Stimulating nerves often times, not always, cause mental distraction allowing officers to apply control techniques (joint locks, hold downs etc). Like every other option officers have, nerve manipulation has it's place in the use of force. Most of the time officers are attempting control and often fighting against how other officers are moving (trying to control) a suspect. Nerve work has no place against a highly motivated, aggressive suspect. Officer "tools" will never replace the need for hands on, they only supplement. The scary thing in many academies, are less than knowledgeable instructors who don't have the experience of using nerve manipulation. Recruits are falsely led to believe all is needed is to push a nerve and like spock, the suspect complies. Perhaps these instructors are more dangerous than the criminals.
SJG


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 19, 2008)

Geeba12 said:


> Stimulating nerves often times, not always, cause mental distraction allowing officers to apply control techniques (joint locks, hold downs etc). Like every other option officers have, nerve manipulation has it's place in the use of force. Most of the time officers are attempting control and often fighting against how other officers are moving (trying to control) a suspect. Nerve work has no place against a highly motivated, aggressive suspect. Officer "tools" will never replace the need for hands on, they only supplement. The scary thing in many academies, are less than knowledgeable instructors who don't have the experience of using nerve manipulation. Recruits are falsely led to believe all is needed is to push a nerve and like spock, the suspect complies. Perhaps these instructors are more dangerous than the criminals.
> SJG


 You're right, when properly understood and taught PP's can be effective.....but the lack of understanding about how to properly apply them is dangerous.  More to the point I think some of that poor instruction is INTENTIONAL.....as systems are sold to administrators based on the fact they appear very inoccuous while promising 'humane restraint'.  Administrations buy in to systems that are sold as 'liability friendly'.....when what they really are is a recipe for injured officers and WORSE liability when the officer has to use a much higher level of force to control a suspect.

So they get a bunch of officers in a training session, cause them pain by pushing on their pressure points, thereby convincing them that it does hurt, and selling the notion that it will work the same way against some drunk or drugged psychotic in an alleyway......the officer only finds out at the moment of truth that he's been sold a bill of goods that is flawed and faulty.

But the sellers of these systems defend themselves by the promise that 'if done correctly' the system works......and if an officer has a failure it's the officer that failed not the system......and if he used another level of force other than taught to control a suspect, he's now outside his training and further liable.


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## Drac (Sep 19, 2008)

My new favorite is the ProTek Key..Check it out..www.pps-selfdefense.com


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## jks9199 (Sep 19, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> So they get a bunch of officers in a training session, cause them pain by pushing on their pressure points, thereby convincing them that it does hurt, and selling the notion that it will work the same way against some drunk or drugged psychotic in an alleyway......the officer only finds out at the moment of truth that he's been sold a bill of goods that is flawed and faulty.
> 
> But the sellers of these systems defend themselves by the promise that 'if done correctly' the system works......and if an officer has a failure it's the officer that failed not the system......and if he used another level of force other than taught to control a suspect, he's now outside his training and further liable.



They give 'em one training session, while everyone "tries" it on each other (and nobody really wants to resist!).  They don't give any refreshers, and damn little real application related training in the session, either.  Everyone stands around, sees it demonstrated a couple times, then pairs up and "gives it a shot", and then move onto the next one.  And, unless it's a rookie class, don't forget the cutting up and ******** going on throughout, from that salty road dog who's only there 'cause he got the memo saying "BE THERE OR ELSE" to the guy who's just off FTO taking his first in-service, and who's going to buy into just 'cause it's new.  And, of course, the handful of martial artists/DT instructors and the like...

Pressure points have a great place, and we all use some.  But lots of cops only use one or two that they actually learned best, and have actually used once or twice.


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## Geeba12 (Sep 19, 2008)

If interested, the press release for the tool I have been referring to has been posted in the newsroom as a press release.
Thanks to Bob for his webmaster help.
SJG


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## Geeba12 (Sep 25, 2008)

Thank you to those who have sent me an e mail. I appreciate all input as well as comments of the you tube videos.
SJG


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## Drac (Sep 25, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> They give 'em one training session, while everyone "tries" it on each other (and nobody really wants to resist!). They don't give any refreshers, and damn little real application related training in the session, either. Everyone stands around, sees it demonstrated a couple times, then pairs up and "gives it a shot", and then move onto the next one. And, unless it's a rookie class, don't forget the cutting up and ******** going on throughout, from that salty road dog who's only there 'cause he got the memo saying "BE THERE OR ELSE" to the guy who's just off FTO taking his first in-service, and who's going to buy into just 'cause it's new. And, of course, the handful of martial artists/DT instructors and the like...


 
Have we been in some classes together??? Cause it sounds like some of the ones I've been to..There is a top notch instructor up here who says that officers that show up to training classes fall into 3 catagories..

1. Prisoners: I got a memo that says I gotta show..
2. Vacationers: Hey it beats going on patrol
3.Volunteers: I want to be here, I want to learn..



jks9199 said:


> Pressure points have a great place, and we all use some. But lots of cops only use one or two that they actually learned best, and have actually used once or twice.


 
Amen Bro...


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## Geeba12 (Sep 28, 2008)

It's sad to say that the lack of interest on IST is a common theme in all departments, everywhere.
The motivating force for those skilled and dedicated instructors (as in the Martial Arts) will always be, if one out of group benefits and appreciates the efforts and knowledge being freely given away (even though they are compensated for teaching, in most cases the instructors dedicated years of study, sacrificed and paid a respectable amount of money to learn in the first place), it is worth it.
After completion of the FBI DT course at Camp Smith in 1986, I recall the director of training in my department warning me of the majority of officers lack of interest (I was still a rookie with about a year OTJ).
Boy was he right!
The old timers gave the typical: "I'm only here because I have to be", "I'm here for the OT" or the classic, "I'll just shoot them", attitude to DT training.
I knew to teach the topic, stay away from "war stories" (I only had 5 homicide calls under my belt at that point but dozens of felony assualt calls), but I still had to prove myself by being there when the S_ _ T hit the fan.
I was told early on, nobody cares about my opinion, proving myself on calls was the only way to earn respect.
I think if more instructors adopted this methodology, they would be less likely to teach garbage that those with time on the job know, won't work.
SJG


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