# Loose hand technique approaches in Wing Chun



## Yeung (Aug 4, 2017)

Loose hand or“san shou散手” is generally refers to the application of short individual applications or encounters or variations. 

Gulo Wing Chun is mainly based on loose hand techniques. In my encounter with this system in the 70s in Hong Kong, it has 18 loose hand techniques applicable to training, two person practice, wooden dummy, and separate sets of double knives and three and half point pole. It was developed by  Leung Jan (Liang Zan 1826-1901) when he returned to his ancestral home in Gulo when he retired and taught his relatives who were well versed in southern martial arts for a few years before his death. It seems to me that there are also development of routines in recent years.

Guangzhou Wing Chun or Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun or Sum Nung Wing Chun has 12 loose hand techniques for beginner was developed by Sum Nung (Cen Neng 1926-2002) in the 50s to train union workers to fight. His reason for such development was to train strong manual workers to fight in a short time and was proven to be workable.

The Yip Man system seems to be focus on teaching the sticking hand applications and variations with proficient students on a one to one basis. However, the later development seems to be following the other systems’ loose hand techniques approaches for beginners and people with an external background.


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## wckf92 (Aug 4, 2017)

Were you trained in the loose hand method?


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2017)

This concept of short paired-drill sequences to teach and reinforce proper reactions and technique application is a widespread practice, and not just in Wing Chun.

In the branch of Yip Man VT I train, a series of such drills was developed more recently (starting in the 1970s and '80s) using the term "lat sau"  (also implying a "free hand" practice). At the beginning and intermediate level there are some 6 or more of these lat-sau cycles (depending on the sub-branch of the lineage) which are then gradually merged with more advanced chi-sau drills.

At the final stage, lat-sau opened up  and flow very fast and freely almost like light sparring (guo-sau), --or perhaps more like pad-work in boxing since typically one person will lead (like a coach) and the other will respond. 

The main difference between the lat-sau and chi sau is that in lat sau you are not  fully connected to your training partner as you are in chi-sau, so it adds that  important element to the training. Also I believe it significantly speeds up practical skill acquisition.  According to the _Gu-lo_ folks I've met here on MT, _Leung Jan_ must have felt the same way.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 4, 2017)

We also utilize the Lat Sao training platform, which was filtered down from Leung Ting to Kieth Kernspecht, and KK made an entire curriculum based around it.


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## geezer (Aug 4, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> We also utilize the Lat Sao training platform, which was filtered down from Leung Ting to Kieth Kernspecht, and KK made an entire curriculum based around it.



Bino, Welcome to the forum. Yeah, the lat sau I got from Leung Ting was much less involved and organized than the extensive curriculum developed by Keith Kernscpecht. We were first exposed to that when some of the German EWTO guys came to America in the mid to late '80s. 

BTW who do you train with in Houston?


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## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

I began my training WT training under Si-Fu Alex Wallenwein, who was a student of Kernspecht (and also traveled with LT during his American tours). After a nasty political fallout, I left that organization and am now under Si-Fu Bradford Wholner, who is currently in Mexico, under Sifu Tam Yiu Ming. So I am well versed in both the EWTO and the Hong Kong IWTA side of WT. There's a very intricate breakdown of all of this on my website.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

Glad to be here, geezer. I figured I should branch out from all of the FB forums I frequent and see what else is out there...


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## KPM (Aug 5, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> I began my training WT training under Si-Fu Alex Wallenwein, who was a student of Kernspecht (and also traveled with LT during his American tours). After a nasty political fallout, I left that organization and am now under Si-Fu Bradford Wholner, who is currently in Mexico, under Sifu Tam Yiu Ming. So I am well versed in both the EWTO and the Hong Kong IWTA side of WT. There's a very intricate breakdown of all of this on my website.



Hey Jason!  Welcome to the forum!


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## Danny T (Aug 5, 2017)

Welcome Jason. In New Iberia, La. Would love to hook up sometime and share a bit.


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## wckf92 (Aug 5, 2017)

Welcome to MT


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## geezer (Aug 5, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Welcome to MT





Bino TWT said:


> I began my training WT training under Si-Fu Alex Wallenwein, who was a student of Kernspecht (and also traveled with LT during his American tours). After a nasty political fallout, I left that organization and am now under Si-Fu Bradford Wholner, who is currently in Mexico, under Sifu Tam Yiu Ming. So I am well versed in both the EWTO and the Hong Kong IWTA side of WT. There's a very intricate* breakdown of all of this on my website*.



Jason, I found you on facebook -- the guy with the _awesome_ beard, right? But I didn't find your webpage with the breakdown you mentioned above. Maybe you could post a link? 

Anyway, Wing Chun politics really sucks. Especially in WT. And it's a shame since it drives people apart when they should be sharing. So that's why this is such a good place. I hope you continue to post.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 5, 2017)

Yeung said:


> Loose hand or“san shou散手” is generally refers to the application of short individual applications or encounters or variations.


It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose. This way our next generate can understand it's possible that "training can be the same as fighting".


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## geezer (Aug 5, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose. This way our next generate can understand it's possible that "training can be the same as fighting".



Nah, we've got _enough forms_. The "Lat-Sau" we do in WT/VT all comes from the forms anyway. It's the fact that you can practice it in two man drills, and then mix it up that makes it come alive as a training method.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 5, 2017)

geezer said:


> Nah, we've got _enough forms_. The "Lat-Sau" we do in WT/VT all comes from the forms anyway. It's the fact that you can practice it in two man drills, and then mix it up that makes it come alive as a training method.


It depends how many "san shou 散手" techniques that you can collect. It will be hard to remember when that number can reach to 60, or even 80.

One Karate school when they test their black belt, they require their black belt students to perform 50 different self-defense techniques. They have to physical remember number 1, 2, ..., 49, 50. I suggested the instructor to make a 50 moves solo form, or even 2 men form. After that their students had easier time to take their test.

I have created a 84 moves long fist  "san shou 散手" form. It's a quite challenge task.


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## wckf92 (Aug 5, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One Karate school when they test their black belt, they require their black belt students to perform 50 different self-defense techniques. They have to physical remember number 1, 2, ..., 49, 50. I suggested the instructor to make a 50 moves solo form, or even 2 men form.



Kind of reminds me of Kenpo/Kempo...lots and lots of memorized one-step's and etc...


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## wckf92 (Aug 5, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose..



But then, everyone's "4th form" would be different! 
hahahahaha


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## Danny T (Aug 5, 2017)

geezer said:


> Jason, I found you on facebook -- the guy with the _awesome_ beard, right? But I didn't find your webpage with the breakdown you mentioned above. Maybe you could post a link?
> 
> Anyway, Wing Chun politics really sucks. Especially in WT. And it's a shame since it drives people apart when they should be sharing. So that's why this is such a good place. I hope you continue to post.


geezer I believe this is the page with the lineage breakdown Jason is talking about.
Lineage


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## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

Yes, thanks Danny, that is correct. And yes Geezer, the beard is pretty awesome lol.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

Lat Sao isn't a form, but a training platform. When we train new techniques (or for you WT guys, when we learn a new technique in a Chi Sao section, for instance), we have to make the technique work from all platforms. So if we learn a new Chi Sao technique, we must also train it in Jut Chuen, and also Lat Sao. "Lat Sao" holds multiple meanings for us, but the technique must still be applied to all of these meanings.
1. Free Hand sparring under pressure (sometimes refered to Gor Sao , San da, or San Shou in other lineages)
2. zero contact range, meaning the technique must be applied against an attack from Bai Jong/guard position
3. Lat Sao program training platform (drill)

Here's some more from my site regarding the different training methods of the WT lineage:

*Lat Sao* - "_Free Hand_": Lat Sao is often used to refer to sparring (along with San Da and Gor Sao). In our lineage, the EWTO Lat Sao program is a proprietary training platform created by GM Kernspecht to train techniques and build one level to the next throughout the student grades. This platform interchanges with other levels throughout the curriculum, and you can flow in and out of the programs, allowing high and low level students to train together effectively. Lat Sao is a safe way to drill techniques and responses, and timing and distance. One bonus of this platform is that it is generally initiated from no contact, so the practitioner can learn to bridge the gap and intercept and counter incoming attacks.

*Jut Chuen* - "_Sinking/Shocking & Threading_": Sometimes called Laap Kuen or Laap Da (pull/fist or pull/strike), this is similar to the Laap Sao/Laap Da drill done by other Wing Chun lineages, but mechanically different in function. This is a training platform used to practice free flow of techniques and counters, to learn to control the range and apply forward intent to your movements, bridging the gap between Lat Sao and Chi Sao. Jut Chuen is the primary training platform used by the Hong Kong/IWTA side of the WT lineage, as opposed to the Lat Sao program used by the EWTO.


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## geezer (Aug 5, 2017)

Great explanation, Jason. I remember when the first EWTO guys brought the lat-sau curriculum over to the States --Thomas Dolniski, Emin, and my si-dai Alex, who (although less experienced than some of the others like Emin), did_ bai-si _and was taken on as _todai_ by my Sifu, Leung Ting.

The EWTO training curriculum added a lot. In fact I currently study with my former si-dai in the WT system who reaped the benefit of having both LT's instruction and EWTO training. He's my "junior" in seniority, but having studied extensively with both LT and the EWTO, achieved a higher level of skill than I. When he left the WT organization, I chose to continue training with him  ...which got me "excommunicated" as well.

Unfortunately, the same politics and business model that drove me from WT keeps reasserting itself, even in the "rebel" organizations as you found out. And, that may be a problem I face again. Especially since I'm a really curious guy and like to learn from different people. That doesn't sit well with the old-school WT mindset.

Now getting back on topic, I note that what Sifu LT himself always referred to lap-sau cycle, was re-named jut-chuen-da cycle by the EWTO. This seems to be a more accurate description of the movement sequence and effectively distinguishes it from the differently executed versions of lap-sau used in other Yip Man branches. Regardless, I tend to use the old terms as I was taught them. YGKYM instead of "IRAS", etc. I still jumble up the chi-sau sections too, as I learn, or try to learn, different versions. Confusing. ...Oh well, in the end it's not the drills that matter, but how you move ...or what you can do.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 5, 2017)

Geezer, I'd love to sit around and drink beer and listen to all of your stories one of these days...


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## Yeung (Aug 6, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Were you trained in the loose hand method?


Yes


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## Yeung (Aug 6, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose. This way our next generate can understand it's possible that "training can be the same as fighting".



I think you will be in a position to evaluate various Wing Chun loose hand techniques in this thread. For your information:

Lat-sau (Li shou離手 or 离手): hands are separated.

Loose hand techniques for beginners and non Wing Chun practitioners should be techniques without Lap-sau (lie shou*擸*手): to hold, to grasp; to pull at; to glance.

You have mentioned quite a lot of techniques in this forum which can be use to test the effectiveness of Wing Chun San Shou. Sum Nung Wing Chun has 12 standard techniques but it is mainly encounters for hand techniques. I am not sure about the recent San Shou developments of Gulo Wing Chun and Yip Man Wing Chun. Maybe members of this forum can come up with some agreed techniques for evaluation.


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

I think better term than "loose hand" would be "dispersing hands" or "scattering hands" since 散 is more often a verb than an adjective (and even then, my dictionary mentions it as "scattered"). 

There exists a training method in Hung Kyun with the same name; however, their San sau is more akin to not-quite-clinch arm-grappling/trapping:


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## KPM (Aug 7, 2017)

Is "San" not the same character used for the "San" in Sanda competitions?  In that context it means something more akin to "separated" hands....as in you are drilling or fighting from a separation from each other rather than in contact with each other as in Chi Sau.   In Pin Sun Wing Chun when we talked about the "San Sau" stage of training the sets, it meant applying them "on the fly" or in sparring as opposed to applying them in Chi Sau.

The sets themselves were not referred to as "San Sau".  They were called "San Sik" .....which I was told translated best in this context as "separate parts", as in separated out from the larger forms that others use.  But this seemed to be a more modern label.  I was told the older generations didn't give them a label like this. 

The training consisted of learning the short sets....then learning a two-man drill for each that taught their meaning or application (Chok Sau)...then learning to perform them on the dummy (Jong Sau)...then learning to apply them in Chi Sau....and finally learning to apply them in sparring or "free application" (San Sau).


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

KPM said:


> Is it not the same character used for the "San" in Sanda competitions?  In that context it means something more akin to "separated" hands....as in you are fighting from a separation from each other rather than in contact with each other as in Chi Sau.   In Pin Sun Wing Chun when we talked about the "San Sau" stage of training the sets, it meant applying them "on the fly" or in sparring as opposed to applying them in Chi Sau.



It is the same character: 散手 and 散打. It has the meaning of something coming apart (or getting loose from its attached/tightened/firm state), instead of staying apart and not coming together. Example from my dictionary: 木箱散了。 = "The wooden box came apart." Thus the implied idea is to disperse the incoming attack coming from the opponent.

Here from 0:50 onwards there is an explanation of San sau in Wan Kam Leung's Practical Wing Chun:


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It depends how many "san shou 散手" techniques that you can collect. It will be hard to remember when that number can reach to 60, or even 80.
> 
> One Karate school when they test their black belt, they require their black belt students to perform 50 different self-defense techniques. They have to physical remember number 1, 2, ..., 49, 50. I suggested the instructor to make a 50 moves solo form, or even 2 men form. After that their students had easier time to take their test.
> 
> I have created a 84 moves long fist  "san shou 散手" form. It's a quite challenge task.


In NGA, the core curriculum is 50 individual techniques. I've never known anyone to really struggle remembering all of them if they had any sort of mnemonic device. Those devices require a lot less time and effort than learning a form (I know, becasuse I created forms for the first two sets, and see how much it takes for my students to learn those, even when they already know the techniques).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

VPT said:


> It is the same character: 散手 and 散打. It has the meaning of something coming apart (or getting loose from its attached/tightened/firm state), instead of staying apart and not coming together. Example from my dictionary: 木箱散了。 = "The wooden box came apart." Thus the implied idea is to disperse the incoming attack coming from the opponent.
> 
> Here from 0:50 onwards there is an explanation of San sau in Wan Kam Leung's Practical Wing Chun:


VPT, a point of purely intellectual curiosity here. Is your dictionary electronic? I've long wondered how one would look up a word/ideogram in a paper dictionary when an alphabet isn't involved. My entire paradigm for "looking up" involves languages with alphabets (English, Romance languages, Russian, German), and just doesn't seem to apply to traditional Asian writing.


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> VPT, a point of purely intellectual curiosity here. Is your dictionary electronic? I've long wondered how one would look up a word/ideogram in a paper dictionary when an alphabet isn't involved. My entire paradigm for "looking up" involves languages with alphabets (English, Romance languages, Russian, German), and just doesn't seem to apply to traditional Asian writing.



I use an app called Pleco on my smartphone. Handwriting input makes looking up words gloriously convenient. Best of all, it is free and it does not have ads and it does not force you into buying their plug-ins. (Which I believe would be very good.)

Not going into details here how it works, but it suffices to say that using Chinese dictionaries in book format is a real pain in your general posterior and requires already a fair share of knowledge how Chinese characters are constructed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

VPT said:


> I use an app called Pleco on my smartphone. Handwriting input makes looking up words gloriously convenient. Best of all, it is free and it does not have ads and it does not force you into buying their plug-ins. (Which I believe would be very good.)
> 
> Not going into details here how it works, but it suffices to say that using Chinese dictionaries in book format is a real pain in your general posterior and requires already a fair share of knowledge how Chinese characters are constructed.


So, in vague terms (the only terms I'm likely to understand, frankly), does looking them up in book format flow from the compositional parts? I seem to recall the kanji for "life" was composed of two other words' characters (rice/fire, maybe?), so you'd look by those parts? Or is it based upon the stroke order (so, knowing the character you're looking for has a first stroke that is vertical and curved)? If it's too complex for a vague answer, let me know; I'm definitely proceeding from ignorance here.


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, in vague terms (the only terms I'm likely to understand, frankly), does looking them up in book format flow from the compositional parts? I seem to recall the kanji for "life" was composed of two other words' characters (rice/fire, maybe?), so you'd look by those parts? Or is it based upon the stroke order (so, knowing the character you're looking for has a first stroke that is vertical and curved)? If it's too complex for a vague answer, let me know; I'm definitely proceeding from ignorance here.



I was afraid of going too OT with this explanation, but it might be beneficial and informative to people in general, so here goes. I believe there are plenty different ways to organise Chinese (book) dictionaries, some more sensical than others, but the one I'm describing here is one of the more structured ones and what Pleco uses as well (if you are not searching for words in English or in pinyin, the romanisation for Mandarin Chinese).

Now, from a dictionary perspective the most important thing for a character is its radical. Radical can actually refer to any part of the character, but in common Chinese student's parlance it refers to the _semantic component_ of a character, i.e. what kind of "set" does the word belong to. More of this below. In a Chinese dictionary, all the words are arranged by the radical in the order of the number of strokes in them. Single-stroke radicals come first, then two-stroke, three-stroke and so on. There are apparently different ways to arrange them (I had to check this), Pleco and one website I use apparently arrange them by their "Cangjie encoding" input. It's best not to explain that here but yes, there's a sense to that too. One possible other way would be alphabetical order by pinyin and tone number (1 to 4).

(There are a number of different structures for the characters where the radical can take place, to know which one it is takes time in studying Chinese. So it's somewhat impossible to use the dictionary without knowing any Chinese!)

The second step is to count the number of strokes in the other part, because the characters with the same radical are then ordered after the count of their strokes. Example: Our radical is 人/亻(they are the same and mean "human/person"), the character  仙 is listed way before 做, because the former has only three strokes, latter has nine. Then again all the characters with the radical 亻and the same number of strokes could be arranged into order by their Cangjie encoding order.

Let's take an example character of "box" from one of my previous messages: 箱, pronounced "xiang". I can tell by looking at it that the semantic radical of the character is "bamboo", written 竹. Apparently the Chinese used to make boxes out of bamboo. 竹 has six strokes so I'd first find from the dictionary index where the characters with this radical are. Then I count the strokes of the bottom, which is the part that is actually pronounced "xiang". This, for example is also pronounced "xiang", but with different tone: 想. So the number of strokes in 相 is nine, therefore I would search under section "竹" among the characters with nine strokes this exact character. Here they are ordered to the same logic they were ordered in the radicals index.

This type of way of finding words is horrid. The coming of electrical dictionaries greatly helped this cesspit of looking for the right word you were after. I've personally never used a Chinese dictionary that would've been printed and bound.

Edit: EXTRA! Chinese characters are written in following order: up to down, left to right, horizontal lines before vertical lines.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

VPT said:


> I was afraid of going too OT with this explanation, but it might be beneficial and informative to people in general, so here goes. I believe there are plenty different ways to organise Chinese (book) dictionaries, some more sensical than others, but the one I'm describing here is one of the more structured ones and what Pleco uses as well (if you are not searching for words in English or in pinyin, the romanisation for Mandarin Chinese).
> 
> Now, from a dictionary perspective the most important thing for a character is its radical. Radical can actually refer to any part of the character, but in common Chinese student's parlance it refers to the _semantic component_ of a character, i.e. what kind of "set" does the word belong to. More of this below. In a Chinese dictionary, all the words are arranged by the radical in the order of the number of strokes in them. Single-stroke radicals come first, then two-stroke, three-stroke and so on. There are apparently different ways to arrange them (I had to check this), Pleco and one website I use apparently arrange them by their "Cangjie encoding" input. It's best not to explain that here but yes, there's a sense to that too. One possible other way would be alphabetical order by pinyin and tone number (1 to 4).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the excellent explanation, VPT!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In NGA, the core curriculum is 50 individual techniques. I've never known anyone to really struggle remembering all of them if they had any sort of mnemonic device. Those devices require a lot less time and effort than learning a form (I know, becasuse I created forms for the first two sets, and see how much it takes for my students to learn those, even when they already know the techniques).


When students learn a form, they are not learning individual techniques. They are learning:

- different ways to apply the same technique.
- the flow from technique to technique (combo).

Of course it will take more effort to do so.

Even just the straight punch, you can have:

- downward block and punch.
- upward block and punch.
- left to right block and punch.
- right to left block and punch.
- ...


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When students learn a form, they are not learning individual techniques. They are learning:
> 
> - different ways to apply the same technique.
> - the flow from technique to technique (combo).
> ...


I was replying to your comment that a form can be a way to remember the techniques more easily. I thought that would be the case, but it turned out they work just as hard to learn the order of the techniques in the form as others did to learn the list of techniques.

All the other things you mention in this post are the reasons I added the forms, in the first place. The hoped-for (but not received) easier memorization was just a bonus.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> easier memorization was just a bonus.


When I prepared my TOEFL (Test Of English as Foreign Language), I had a small dictionary in my pocket all the time. I started to learn English words from A to Z.

One of my friend used a different approach. He got himself a book (such as "Pride and Prejudice") and learned English words along with the story.

If I can relive my life again, I think I will take his approach instead.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I prepared my TOEFL (Test Of English as Foreign Language), I had a small dictionary in my pocket all the time. I started to learn English words from A to Z.
> 
> One of my friend used a different approach. He got himself a book (such as "Pride and Prejudice") and learned English words along with the story.
> 
> If I can relive my life again, I think I will take his approach instead.


Context is a better way to learn. But a form with multiple techniques in it is not more context than those techniques practiced in application. If they are actually practicing the techniques (rather than just memorizing them), it shouldn't be difficult to remember them, with some mnemonic device used. I created sentences ("Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage." = first 10 techniques). My wife remembered them by primary body part (how many of the first 10 were: head = 0, hand = 4, elbow = 2, shoulder = 1, body = 2, or leg = 1).


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## Yeung (Aug 9, 2017)

KPM said:


> Is "San" not the same character used for the "San" in Sanda competitions?  In that context it means something more akin to "separated" hands....as in you are drilling or fighting from a separation from each other rather than in contact with each other as in Chi Sau.   In Pin Sun Wing Chun when we talked about the "San Sau" stage of training the sets, it meant applying them "on the fly" or in sparring as opposed to applying them in Chi Sau.
> 
> The sets themselves were not referred to as "San Sau".  They were called "San Sik" .....which I was told translated best in this context as "separate parts", as in separated out from the larger forms that others use.  But this seemed to be a more modern label.  I was told the older generations didn't give them a label like this.
> 
> The training consisted of learning the short sets....then learning a two-man drill for each that taught their meaning or application (Chok Sau)...then learning to perform them on the dummy (Jong Sau)...then learning to apply them in Chi Sau....and finally learning to apply them in sparring or "free application" (San Sau).


Thank you for confirming my observation, san shi for beginners and san sau or free techniques for proficient practitioners.


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