# Innovative Wing Chun? A revolutionary new style...?



## fenglong (Feb 2, 2012)

Stumbled across this and it seems really fake, but maybe someone got personal insight into it?

http://www.usadojo.com/kata/viewfull.asp?bioid=6

http://www.innovativewingchun.com/


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## fenglong (Feb 2, 2012)

Well I guess they just don't reveal enough to discuss and unfortunately that's what they seem to want.


[h=6]&#40845;&#39080;
[/h][h=6]Hi,  I got a question. I was wondering why there are no application videos  or other kinds of videos providing at least a little bit of insight into  IWC?
 I am working on my own "innovative" martial arts and after all  the researching and exchanging I have done, in my opinion it is rather  disappointing and suspicious claiming a martial arts to be really  effective yet not providing some videos with "obvious" info.[/h]Like ·  · January 28 at 7:55am · 





Innovative Wing Chun and Bare-Knuckle Boxing So  you want me to provide you with videos. Would you like free lessons as  well? How about I go to work and do your job? How pathetic it is when  someone wont do the hard work and wants videos and online information,  rather than just getting your *** over here and training hard! I am very  suspicious of you sir!5 hours ago · Like


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## mook jong man (Feb 2, 2012)

Just looking at the video of the dummy  work there are a couple of things that bother me .

It suffers from this thing you always see on the internet of people thinking they have to go a million miles per hour  and smash the crap out of the dummy arms.
Speed can be used to cover a multitude of sins.

Also his body is not unified at the waist as he moves , there is a lot of rapid arm movement but not much of his body weight is being projected into the dummy itself as is evidenced by how little the dummy is being moved.

Thirdly he is not sticking and flowing around the arms with much economy of movement , but seems to disengage from the arms of the dummy a lot , in sticking hands this is a habit that will quickly see you getting hammered by your opponent.

Contrast that video with this video of one of my Si-Hing's notice the pivoting of his body and how his bodyweight is transferred into the wooden dummy and how relaxed he is.


[video=youtube_share;aSqeqNOlxOQ]http://youtu.be/aSqeqNOlxOQ[/video]


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2012)

Curious. He posted videos of people he had no direct connection with, without stating that. For example the clip of Victor Gutierrez back in his EWTO days. There was nothing in the instructor's bio to back up any connection with Victor now or then, the EWTO, or any of the American WT groups. I don't know of any of the "masters" he sys he trained under. But that's OK. I don't know very many people outside my own lineage  ... and MartialTalk, of course!


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## WCman1976 (Feb 17, 2012)

Wow, where to begin? First of all, the dummy form isn't where you should really show the style's speed. If I wanted to make a video demonstrating speed, then I show someone attacking me the way your average street brawler would. Second...okay, you can move fast on the dummy, but your techniques are sloppy. Check out the tan saos and bong saos. The tan sao is supposed to penetrate with forward energy (at least, it is supposed to do that in the dummy form), but with him...it's like he just places his hand against the dummy in way that KIND of looks like a tan sao. Same goes for bong sao. Then all the other videos are of other people, or from movies! Granted, YIP MAN is the closest display of real wing chun I have seen on film, but it still isn't 100% the way it'd be used in the street.

Now on to this lineage thing. He goes absolutely bonkers listing everyone he can think of when he trained in Tang Soo Doo and all the other styles he has dabbled in over the years, even going so far as to brag about training with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. (What...did he attend a three-day seminar Bill held?) But then you notice when it comes time to talk about his wing chun training, he goes ABSOLUTELY SILENT. Plus his timeline is all confused: started in 1995, was a private student for 12 years...certified Sifu in 1999? Isn't that FOUR years? Am I just not grasping what he means there? Also, if he was primarily a private student, then his chi sao can't be all that good. If you practice chi sao with only one person (in this case, his Sifu), then you haven't really learned how to do it right because everyone has their own little nuances that they bring to the exercise. In other words, he can probably chi sao well...if his partner is his Sifu, or someone who does it LIKE his Sifu. 

Last but not least, there is the reply to the email that is copied and pasted in a previous post on this thread. Is that actually REAL??? If the guy has an attitude like that, then I definitely wouldn't go for two reasons: (1) he sounds like a dick, and (2) he sounds like he is going for the hard sell. He wants you to come to the school to check it out instead of posting videos showing what he does because he knows that, once you have someone in front of you, it's harder for them to say "no" than it is to watch a video on Youtube and decide, "Meh, I'm not going there."


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## onthechin (Feb 18, 2012)

No he's right. He's the only one trying to be innovative. The rest of us are making a real effort not to be. We think the only way to train WC is to close our minds to any new ideas and rigidly pursue what has been passed down.
 Anytime you see the words 'innovative, freestyle or combat' to name a few, it should start alarm bells ringing. No to mention mixed martial arts..but that's another can of worms...


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

onthechin said:


> No he's right. He's the only one trying to be innovative. The rest of us are making a real effort not to be. We think the only way to train WC is to close our minds to any new ideas and rigidly pursue what has been passed down.
> Anytime you see the words 'innovative, freestyle or combat' to name a few, it should start alarm bells ringing. *No to mention mixed martial arts..but that's another can of worms...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Oh really? Someone in one 'style' is dubious so MMA is also?


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## onthechin (Feb 18, 2012)

Yes. How many people can say they know how to fight by doing 20% of multiple styles. If someone knows a style they generally make it their base and work from there. If someone doesnt even know a base style I wouldnt advise anyone to train with them. What I'm saying is the term MMA is dubious because it should be X style mixed with y and z


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## onthechin (Feb 18, 2012)

The whole thing about MMA and UFC these days is rubbish. For one people have been mixing MA since time immorial and secondly people have been fighting with fewer rules than we have today. So tell me, what is so special about todays MMA or UFC except that we now have magazines from the massive publicity machines that run it?


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

onthechin said:


> The whole thing about MMA and UFC these days is rubbish. For one people have been mixing MA since time immorial and secondly people have been fighting with fewer rules than we have today. So tell me, what is so special about todays MMA or UFC except that we now have magazines from the massive publicity machines that run it?



Oh dear oh dear, another hater. firstly MMA is the style/sport and UFC is a company, a business. Secondly you are arguing from a position of ignorance about the sport. Perhaps you'll like to contact this chap who will explain more because I really can't be bothered to. Rubbishing other styles is neither polite nor allowed on MT. You don't like it fine but don't put it down because it's not your thing.
http://www.samiberik.com/


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## onthechin (Feb 18, 2012)

Tell me, what 'style' am I rubbishing?


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## onthechin (Feb 18, 2012)

It's nice and easy for you isnt it? You have no style nor allegiance...you can flit from one to another, always in the knowledge that you know best. You can have an argument with anyone from any style but always say you know better because you study multiple styles and get the best of all worlds...what I'm saying is that you need a base art...you need to be able to say something like "I grew up with xxx" or "I've spent most time studying yyy"...


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

onthechin said:


> It's nice and easy for you isnt it? You have no style nor allegiance...you can flit from one to another, always in the knowledge that you know best. You can have an argument with anyone from any style but always say you know better because you study multiple styles and get the best of all worlds...what I'm saying is that you need a base art...you need to be able to say something like "I grew up with xxx" or "I've spent most time studying yyy"...




What are you talking about? I have been training karate for over 20 years. Personal attacks aren't allowed here btw. 

If you want to rubbish MMA and it's practicioners go across to the appropriate section.


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## onthechin (Feb 21, 2012)

Sorry, wasn't meant to be a personal attack. I just get tired of many people jumping on the MMA bandwagon these days, who have no grounding in any MA but think they are superior because they supposedly take the best parts of multiple styles (without ever needing to learn the other 95% of any 1 style). I agree that MMA is a sport but a style? I'm not really convinced that's the case. A quick google sees it defined as a sport, not a style. I have nothing against people who genuinely devote a huge portion of their lives to training in multiple styles but there is without a doubt, a significant number of people out there who've never bothered to committ to any particular style and claim MMA as their style..once again, it's not a style. You are a karate guy, thats your style, my issue is with people who have 'no style' just MMA.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2012)

onthechin said:


> Sorry, wasn't meant to be a personal attack. I just get tired of many people jumping on the MMA bandwagon these days, who have no grounding in any MA but think they are superior because they supposedly take the best parts of multiple styles (without ever needing to learn the other 95% of any 1 style). I agree that MMA is a sport but a style? I'm not really convinced that's the case. A quick google sees it defined as a sport, not a style. I have nothing against people who genuinely devote a huge portion of their lives to training in multiple styles but there is without a doubt, a significant number of people out there who've never bothered to committ to any particular style and claim MMA as their style..once again, it's not a style. You are a karate guy, thats your style, my issue is with people who have 'no style' just MMA.



Ok, I have been doing karate for over 20 years as I said, MMA for 11 years, we train fighters as well as run fight nights, Micheal Bisping had his pro debut on one of ours, ( I shall make no comment about that lol) we've run over 30 shows. We train am, semi and pro fighters, we've travelled around Europe as well as the UK. Most UK fighters have come from a basic TMA, we tend to differ from the Americans as we don't have the wrestling tradition they have. Some of our MMA fighters while in Afghan though had a good time training with American and Canadian MMA people. They came back with more wrestling moves and they passed on what we do, a very good mutual exchange by all accounts. We do train people in MMA from scratch but they have a good grounding in it rather than just learning a mish mash of styles. They do MT, we are sponsored by Fairtex to whom we send our fighters to train with in Thailand, our instrcutor, a long term karate and Judo guy, goes out there regularly. BJJ and Judo are our grappling styles. Our students are mostly servicemen so when they move they may not have a choice of what style they can do if they want to carry on in martial arts. My instructor is a black belt in several styles simply because he's had to do what ever was on offer whereever he was stationed. Karate and TKD are all similiar enough to be easy to pick up, his first style as a child to adult was Judo. A lot of fighters can be very good with 'just' MMA though, they train hard, put a lot into it and are willing to learn so I wouldn't knock people if they are 'just' MMA.

Btw I'm not a guy lol.


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## WTchap (Feb 21, 2012)

I too haven't heard of this teacher and his "innovative" Wing Chun  :wink2:

So I wouldn't want to defend him in a total sense... however, his Wooden Dummy form video does state that he is demo'ing a _fast version_ and that this is not the only way he trains the form.

In WT we also sometimes practice the dummy form quickly - it is not how we learn the form or even how we play it regularly, but doing it quickly does have a purpose (provided you can implement speed without losing the other things you should train/focus on during the form).

Here's a clip I like very much (from Sifu Chris Collins, who learned his Wing Tsun in Hong Kong). 






This isn't the dummy form, just some random play/freestyle work. But nonetheless, he works with speed while at the same time keeping stick when needed, using push-and-pull force, transferring power into the dummy, working some great angles and, my favorite thing about the clip, he demos really good use of weight shifting, turning and stepping. Lots to WT concepts/ideas can be found in this video.

Also, this freestyle dummy clip has something that is quite often missing - strong _intent_!

So basically, _fast_ is not always bad or always wrong (IMHO).


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## onthechin (Feb 21, 2012)

Well ok sorry...babe? Your organisation travels....while in afghan? Though a good time? So you learnt some (probably) wrestling moves from the afghanis..We do train people in MMA from scratch but they do have good grounding in it...Im not gonna go any further.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2012)

onthechin said:


> Well ok sorry...babe? Your organisation travels....while in afghan? Though a good time? So you learnt some (probably) wrestling moves from the afghanis..We do train people in MMA from scratch but they do have good grounding in it...Im not gonna go any further.



Er did you read my post? My students are servicemen, they don't wrestle with Afghans they fight them. They were training MMA with American Marines and Canadian soldiers, I don't actually think you read anything I wrote did you. I take it you prefer to make personal attacks and disparaging comments.


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## onthechin (Feb 25, 2012)

I just watched District 9...what a great movie! Ive been doing wing chun for over 20 years...why are you posting on this forum if you have nothing to do with WC?? So you manage a few guys? Who? When you say your instructor is a black belt in TKD and Karate it makes me wonder once again...why are you posting on this forum? You're not a guy? Never said you were and couldnt care less.


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## MaikuB (Feb 25, 2012)

I think that was referring to you saying "You are a karate guy..."


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## Tez3 (Feb 25, 2012)

MaikuB said:


> I think that was referring to you saying "You are a karate guy..."



Indeed it was, he quite definitely called me a guy.

onthechin, I can and will post anywhere there's interesting posts and there's a chance one can learn soemthing, MMA was commented (not in a good way either) on so I commented back. I didn't mention MMA first, I just replied. I don't 'manage' a few guys, we don't manage them, we, and I mean me too, train them. I didn't say my instructor has a BB in TKD btw. You assumed I was an MMA dilettante, I only posted up what we do to show I'm not which you seemed to accept in one post then got snotty in another, it seemed as if two different people were posting under one username so different were the posts.   
Anyone is free to post anywhere here, I have a interest in all styles, I love martial arts...*all* martial arts even the ones I can't or don't do, it's all interesting.


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## geezer (Feb 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Indeed it was, he quite definitely called me a guy.



Yes he did. Interestingly, here in the States, most strong accents or regional dialects are fading, and two main accents are emerging: Standard American English and Southern American English. Living in Arizona I speak with the "standard" accent, but we have a lot of people here who speak the generic Southern strain (think of country music, or worse, George Bush). We "standard" speakers use the term "guys" with groups of both sexes as an informal plural of the second person "you". Southern speakers say "y'all", and southern women tend to get really annoyed when they are referred to as "guys"...even in a group. Unfortunately, _Onthechin _was using the second person singular, so he was just _wrong!_



Tez3 said:


> *Anyone* is free to post anywhere here, I have a interest in all styles, I love martial arts...*all* martial arts even the ones I can't or don't do, it's all interesting.



Just thought this was worth repeating.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 26, 2012)

Hi Guys, gals, folks and y'all and all the rest----" innovative" wing chun in the video? It ain;t.

joy chaudhuri


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## simplewc101 (Mar 3, 2012)

I haven't trained with this guy, so I don't know how far off his "innovative" wc is from the real thing, but I think I know where his interesting take on wing chun comes from...
                 Yip Man -> 
        Leung Sheung -> 
        Kenneth Chung -> 
        Ben Der -> 
        Ken Werner -> 
        Karl Godwin -> 
                Bill Graves ->     
                Armando Sainz


I don't want to cause trouble about people's lineages so I won't say  more than that.
I guess if he's near by you can try a class or two and see what you think


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## simplewc101 (Mar 3, 2012)

okay, so I did a little more digging and I found this, written by his sifu Bill Graves:
taken from http://www.jacksonvillemartialarts.blogspot.com/

[h=3]Armando Sainz[/h]   
  I would like to start out by letting everyone know the "TRUE" facts  about Sifu Armando Sainz. He was a student of mine, Sifu Bill Graves,  and mine ALONE. He trained with my Sifu Karl Godwin less than 24 hours  in 12 years, this doesn't entitle him to refer to Sifu Godwin in any  other manner than Sigung. Armando had Sifu Godwin give 2 seminars at the  Centerline Academy over the 8 year period in which this facility was  open. These 4 interactions with my Sifu Karl Godwin doesn't entitle  Sainz to refer to Karl as "his instructor", as it is written in the  Macon County News Paper.To verify this, all you have to do is look at  the Seminole Wing Chun website, and see that Sainz is "NOT" listed  anywhere. Sainz has a propensity to "EMBELLISH" his martial arts history  as he sees fit. Sifu Karl Godwin never certified Sainz on his wooden  dummy form, as he writes on his web site, Innovative wing chun. I  certified Sainz in the wooden dummy form, and he never truly finished  all of the training that I offer with this form. Sainz was "Never" the  "Sihing" of any of my public classes, Sifu Jonathan Petree was the  acting Sihing of my public group when Sainz joined. As a matter of fact,  in chronological order, Sainz was the "LAST" senior student in the  senior group of 8 seniors that I had certified. He did learn the  curriculum that I had offered at that time which he trained. Sainz did  train with me for a period of 12 years, although the last 3 years  consisted of very sparse training, here and there, nothing consistent.  Sainz developed some very good fighting skills, yet he isn't the teacher  that he claims to be. Sainz learned some very basic Ju-Jitsu skills  from me and proceeded to develop a natural wing chun defense which he  refers to as "anti-grappling". Upon the dismantling of Centerline  Academy, he left a wake of very confused and misinformed as well as  improperly trained students in the Neptune beach area where his school  did exist for 8 years.There were only 4 students that Sainz trained that  advanced to any recognizable maturity Roger Simmons, Robert Nunes,  Timothy Faughn and Casey Curley. Only Nunes continues to train with  Sainz. Casey had come to me to seek better training about 1 1/2 years  before the Centerline facility closed, Roger Simmons and Casey Curley  are Sihing of my school at this time, and Tim Faughn trains there  presently as well. The last 2 years of the existence of the Centerline  Academy Sainz was rarely in attendance of his own classes and left them  to be run by his Sihing Tim Faughn. As a matter of fact , quoted by one  of his former students," I never saw Armando unless he was trying to  drum up new students or giving interviews to new prospective students".  The energy within the school of which he praises, Centerline Academy,  was in decline and failed badly.
After a " falling out" and mutual  disrespect for one another, I can no longer endorse or support this  Sainz in any of his endeavours. Sainz is not recognized under my lineage  any more. In the words of Sainz," who needs that lineage crap, it  doesn't matter to me and I have no respect for it!". Sainz always had a  desire to do things on his own, and now he will have too. Sainz has  burnt most of the bridges he had in the Jacksonville area between the  people he was involved with in the martial arts and friends of his as  well. The only relationships he has in Jacksonville are the one's with  his PAYING STUDENTS. And of course, they will say good things about him  and he will do good by them, as long as they are PAYING. And though  Sainz will dispute these statements, everyone that knows Sainz in the  Jacksonville area, knows that this is true.
This article isn't about  hurting the reputation of Armando Sainz, yet to properly inform people  of his "TRUE" wing chun history and the facts of his real legacy. I  can't attest to any other of his claims or deny them, but I've known  Sainz since the late Ninties, and I can refute his wing chun history.  Greed, Fame and Power are things that can truly corrupt an individual,  and when a person alters the truth enough, they begin to believe those  alterations. At that point the individual is truly lost.
Since this  article was written, Sainz has responded to me. I have several emails  which show the "True" nature of the supposedly "Religious" Sainz. He has  threatened to slander me or as he put it, "Make it his Life's work to  drag your name through the mud". It really puts a "Bad Taste" in my  mouth, when people hide behind religion to manipulate things as they see  fit. Obviously this is the Sainz character in every aspect. As I stated  earlier in this blog, ANYONE THAT KNOWS SAINZ, KNOWS THIS TO BE TRUE. I  hope I will not have to post the last series of emails that he wrote  me.


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## onthechin (Mar 10, 2012)

ok we are all free to post anything we want...fair enough, but this website is set up so people can talk to others who are likeminded...if you have something to say about a style then theres a forum for you...I still feel perfectlty justified in having a go at someone who posts here but has absolutely nothing to say about wing chun...it beggars the question..."Why are you posting here?"...I doubt Im gonna get an answer at least not a coherent one...


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2012)

onthechin said:


> ok we are all free to post anything we want...fair enough, but this website is set up so people can talk to others who are likeminded...if you have something to say about a style then theres a forum for you...I still feel perfectlty justified in having a go at someone who posts here but has absolutely nothing to say about wing chun...it beggars the question..."Why are you posting here?"...I doubt Im gonna get an answer at least not a coherent one...



I imagine with only 32 posts and a membership of a couple of months you don't feel you know your way around here yet but to take such an elitest attitude that only those who do a particular style can post on a particular section is not in the spirit of MT. You don't actually know what styles people are interested in, you don't know what they may have done in the past, in fact you know nothing about people who post at all. The rules state no personal attacks and no fraud busting. People are encouraged to post, they can post anywhere they like on any subject they like. It's a friendly discussion site not just for people to post on just one subject. It makes for interesting discussions which is what it's known for here. Friendly interesting discussions that is. 

If you feel posts are inappropriate you are required to report them to the Mods, not 'have a go' at the posters, you can also put posters on 'ignore' so you don't have to read what they say. 'Having a go' at posters is deemed a personal attack something not allowed here. Just because in your opinion you don't like a post doesn't mean others don't like that post, everyone has an opinion, having yours doesn't make it the 'correct' opinion and the only one allowed on here. Anyway re read the rules, put people on ignore or report them, you know what to do now.


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## seasoned (Mar 11, 2012)

I think she has a valid point here.


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I think she has a valid point here.




Ta muchly.


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## onthechin (Mar 22, 2012)

Only 32 comments..do you judge people by how many posts theyve made? How sad..
He who angers you conquers you...? I think if that little saying was true then we all would have died a thousand deaths.


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## seasoned (Mar 22, 2012)

onthechin said:


> Only 32 comments..do you judge people by how many posts theyve made? How sad..
> *He who angers you conquers you*...? I think if that little saying was true then we all would have died a thousand deaths.


The great thing about this site is, everyone has an opinion. Some open minded, some narrow minded, but all done with respect.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2012)

I think the smiley thing showed there was no anger, just a bit of friendly advice to someone who's new. Of course it could be the smile on the face of the tiger roflmao.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 22, 2012)

onthechin said:


> Only 32 comments..do you judge people by how many posts theyve made? How sad..
> He who angers you conquers you...? I think if that little saying was true then we all would have died a thousand deaths.



Actually they judge by the content of your posts....numbers don't matter

and if you want to throw out quotes

"Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth."

And I like Tez and find her post interesting, we don't always agree, but that is ok too. And if someone posts something about MMA in the Wing Chun section and it is relevant to the discussion, and it was, so be it.


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## armandosainz (Jan 24, 2014)




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## armandosainz (Jan 24, 2014)

It is just as cowardly to judge an absent person as it is wicked to strike a defenseless one. Only the ignorant and narrow-minded gossip, for they speak of persons instead of things.
*Lawrence G. Lovasik*


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## Marnetmar (Jan 24, 2014)

Obviously the techniques are far too dangerous to show to the general public and must be kept secret! Duh!


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## geezer (Jan 25, 2014)

armandosainz said:


> It is just as cowardly to judge an absent person as it is wicked to strike a defenseless one. Only the ignorant and narrow-minded gossip, for they speak of persons instead of things.
> *Lawrence G. Lovasik*



Armando -- Interesting quote. I guess that means you all shouldn't _judge_ the quality of my thinking since I'm well known to be _absent_ minded!

At any rate, I enjoyed your clip, although I must say I didn't see much that was especially "innovative" at least in the sense of being controversial. Except maybe incorporating hand-gun defenses as part of WC. But I do know a number of other WC instructors who do teach handgun defense in self defense programs on the side, so I personally don't see any problem there. And the rest of the stuff seems pretty mainstream, especially for those WC groups who teach aggressive self defense applications. I'm thinking guys like Chris Collins (theres a clip posted earlier on this old thread), Emin Boztepe, Victor Gutierrez, Sifu Fernandez (AKA "Fighterman") and others. 

So I guess my only question is, why did you post on this old thread from 2012 instead of jumping right in with a fresh new thread and introducing yourself so we could all welcome you to the forum. 


Hey, I'm back to add a brief note: Armando, I checked your profile and see that you posted here once before way back in 2007, about the time I first came across this forum. Three posts in seven years? C'mon dude! you can share more than that!


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## StormShadow (Feb 20, 2014)

Man... I'm away from the forum a few months and all hell breaks loose.... lol j/k 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## donald1 (Feb 20, 2014)

armandosainz said:


>



that's a interesting video


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