# Woah! Worst fake certificate I've ever seen!



## andyjeffries (Jul 5, 2011)

I just posted this comment on a Flickr picture:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/goose3five/4329767450/



> Err, a bit concerned about this certificate.  There are a couple of problems with it:
> 
> 
> 1) The WTF doesn't issue black belt certificates - that responsibility falls to the Kukkiwon or World Taekwondo Headquarters.
> ...



Have you guys seen worse?  Does anyone know who Master Kee Sung Jun is?


----------



## d1jinx (Jul 5, 2011)

looks like a school/in house certificate.  nothing wrong with that, unless he is telling them it is a KKW.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 5, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> looks like a school/in house certificate.  nothing wrong with that, unless he is telling them it is a KKW.


Yeah - It seems to me that its a TKD School in Canada, teaching under the WTF Methodologies, but not under the KKW or WTF. Its like how in a town near where i live, theres the TSDTA (T*Ommitted Name Here* Self Defence and TaeKwonDo Academy). It teaches WTF TKD, and uses their Logo, but isnt a part of either the WTF, or KKW.

Now, i may be mistaken. This may actually be a forgery. But im inclined to believe this could just be a School making its own Certificates for its own Students. 
Therefore, Kee Sung Jun may just be their Instructer/Head of that particular Group.

Anyway, not enough information to say for sure.
But there are errors on it, and it does sport the old WTF Logo.
On the other hand, besides the Logo, it explicitely identifies the Phoenix TKD School part. Hm.


----------



## andyjeffries (Jul 5, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> looks like a school/in house certificate.  nothing wrong with that, unless he is telling them it is a KKW.



Except for the fact that a)it's copyright infringement using the WTF's logo (even their old one) without permission which I doubt they have, and 2) potentially fraud as he's saying/implying that it's a WTF certificate when it's not.


----------



## ATC (Jul 5, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Yeah - It seems to me that its a TKD School in Canada, teaching under the WTF Methodologies,...


What are WTF Methodologies? The WTF only governs the rules of competition as it pertains to the sport and the Olympics, that is it. So unless this cert is for becoming a referee of the sport I don&#8217;t get it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 5, 2011)

From a purely grammarian standpoint, it should be "Tedesco, Gabrielle"; the comma matters. It should also say Poom, not Dan, and it would be nice if they would decide if their school is phoenix or pheonix. 

I'm assuming this is an in house cert, since the WTF does not issue rank. There's certainly nothing inherently wrong with in house certs (although the WTF might object to using their logo). But given how much time, effort and money are invested in training (and ignoring the silliness of an 8 year old "black belt"), there is no excuse for such a sloppy certificate.


----------



## mango.man (Jul 5, 2011)

Agreed that is a pretty bad cert, even for an in-house job, but dad has now posted her official KKW cert.  Just for fun I punched the info into the KKW POOM/DAN search and it is legit.


----------



## troubleenuf (Jul 5, 2011)

Its been about 10 years but the last time I was at the Kukkiwon they have a little shop next door and they sell certificates there that have the stamps and logos on them.  Seemed pretty strange to me but since they were right there I assume the Kukkiwon knew they were doing it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 5, 2011)

Our school is affiliated with both the Pan American Moo Duk Kwan and the Kukkiwon/WTF. Our in house certs for geup grades have the (old, round) WTF logo on them. I guess I've always assumed that being affiliated with them meant you could use their logo on in this manner.

I can see the problem with using it on a Dan ranking certificate (our black belts have the choice of being certified by the Kukkiwon or the Moo Duk Kwan), but in this case it seems to be used only to show an affiliation, not an endorsement.


----------



## andyjeffries (Jul 5, 2011)

mango.man said:


> Agreed that is a pretty bad cert, even for an in-house job, but dad has now posted her official KKW cert.  Just for fun I punched the info into the KKW POOM/DAN search and it is legit.



Yeah, I just saw that too.  That's great.  You hear so many horror stories of fake rank...


----------



## andyjeffries (Jul 5, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Our school is affiliated with both the Pan American Moo Duk Kwan and the Kukkiwon/WTF. Our in house certs for geup grades have the (old, round) WTF logo on them. I guess I've always assumed that being affiliated with them meant you could use their logo on in this manner.



I doubt it.  The Kukkiwon would I'm sure go made if you used their logo on a Dan certificate and I'd imagine that the WTF would be the same.  It's not to say that you aren't allowed to use their logos, but like any copyright issue you'd have to ask for permission (I have done this with the Kukkiwon and provided it's reasonable they are great about it).

Also, remember schools and general organisations aren't affiliated with the WTF, only their official Member National Associations.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 5, 2011)

The interesting thing to me was the school name is mispelt on the certificate.  It is "Phoenix" the first time, and "Pheonix" the second.  I hope someone points that out to them!


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jul 6, 2011)

Back in 1987 met a guy who supposedly was giving ITF Dan certs.  He was not far from me and I was surprised I had never heard of him.  I was a third dan at the time and never pushed the issue.  Did noit see the  certs at that time. (I think Iceman trained with this guy.) Figured that even if I was right and the guy was full of bull his students' reaction would simply be that I was a Dick. Who the heck was I to question there instructor.  (Someone here made a similar comment when I suggested they ask their instructor about the way a pattern was being performed.)Anyway, a couple of years go buy and the school has a meltdown due to a messy divorce. Students begin investigating avenues for continuing with ITF certification and get referred to me.  I play dumb and just tell them to send me a copy of their certs and we can go from there as far as progressing from that cert. date etc. Get the certs and they look nothing like the ITF cert. They do have the ITF logo, but Gneral Choi's name is no listed. Instead there are three Korean names only one of which I recognize and he's not an ITF guy. Who knows if his guy was even aware the instructor had certs with that name on it. Anyway, still play dumb and figure I woould let the org. be the bad guy and send the copies to ITF asking for verification of names, dates and numbers.  Letter comes back from the ITF smoking as to how much they want to pursue the fraud.  I send it to the guy who took over the school without comment.   Needless to say they were quite unhappy that thier instructor had been ripping them off. So, now, when I see similar stuff, I check it out. and still try to get people to ask questions.  In some cases I reccomend they notify the authorities.


----------



## IcemanSK (Jul 6, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Back in 1987 met a guy who supposedly was giving ITF Dan certs.  He was not far from me and I was surprised I had never heard of him.  I was a third dan at the time and never pushed the issue.  Did noit see the  certs at that time. (I think Iceman trained with this guy.) Figured that even if I was right and the guy was full of bull his students' reaction would simply be that I was a Dick. Who the heck was I to question there instructor.  (Someone here made a similar comment when I suggested they ask their instructor about the way a pattern was being performed.)Anyway, a couple of years go buy and the school has a meltdown due to a messy divorce. Students begin investigating avenues for continuing with ITF certification and get referred to me.  I play dumb and just tell them to send me a copy of their certs and we can go from there as far as progressing from that cert. date etc. Get the certs and they look nothing like the ITF cert. They do have the ITF logo, but Gneral Choi's name is no listed. Instead there are three Korean names only one of which I recognize and he's not an ITF guy. Who knows if his guy was even aware the instructor had certs with that name on it. Anyway, still play dumb and figure I woould let the org. be the bad guy and send the copies to ITF asking for verification of names, dates and numbers.  Letter comes back from the ITF smoking as to how much they want to pursue the fraud.  I send it to the guy who took over the school without comment.   Needless to say they were quite unhappy that thier instructor had been ripping them off. So, now, when I see similar stuff, I check it out. and still try to get people to ask questions.  In some cases I reccomend they notify the authorities.


I'm glad you told the story from your perspective, Master Weiss. I've been curious as to what you thought back then for a long time. One of the funny parts to me was he used to bring YOU in to give seminars for us. You were what he said HE was! Many who remembered those times were the folks who went to see you in the aftermath.I discovered my 2nd Dan "ITF" from him was bogus when I walked into GM Duk Gun Kwon's office & wanted to train there. He laughed me out of his office when he saw that bogus cert. He even opened his desk drawer & showed me a legit ITF cert.Sad thing is, most folks have no clue what a legit cert. from org. "X" or "Y" should look like.


----------



## thelegendxp (Jul 27, 2011)

FYI in case it may help:

If you personally know the person who received certificate, you should let the person know: the Kukkiwon website lets you check if you formally have a degree with them or not!


----------



## andyjeffries (Jul 28, 2011)

thelegendxp said:


> FYI in case it may help: If you personally know the person who received certificate, you should let the person know: the Kukkiwon website lets you check if you formally have a degree with them or not!



I didn't personally know that person but still told them ;-)

I believe in helping everyone to determine if their rank is valid or not.


----------



## thelegendxp (Jul 28, 2011)

Good for you!


----------

