# Posture & Power



## KPM (May 29, 2015)

I posted this video on another thread, but the thread was dying and it didn't get much response.  But since it speaks to several things that have been talked about here recently I decided to put it up on its own.  I made this last year.  My thinking has changed a little bit since then and I do some things a bit differently after starting my study of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.  But for the most part I think what I say and show here is not far off.  If you take the time to watch the whole thing you will see:

1.  The dreaded "Wing Chun slouch" and what to do about it.
2.   What I consider "optimal" biomechanics, which includes using the hips.
3.  The difference between a Wing Chun punch and a western boxer's rear cross.
4.  Hendrik's "hydraulic" model demo'd before I even knew that's what you would call it!  
5.  Keeping the elbow coupled to the hip.
6.  My definition of "short power."


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2015)

I like your clip. I can clear see the power generation come from your "body unification" and not just come from "moving your arm without moving your body". I also respect you to put up your personal clip. This way we can match face with post and get to know each other better. Thanks for putting up this clip.


----------



## geezer (May 29, 2015)

KPM said:


> I posted this video on another thread, but the thread was dying and it didn't get much response.  But since it speaks to several things that have been talked about here recently I decided to put it up on its own.  I made this last year.  My thinking has changed a little bit since then and I do some things a bit differently after starting my study of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.  But for the most part I think what I say and show here is not far off.  If you take the time to watch the whole thing you will see:



Frankly Keith, I had no intention of watching the whole 20 minute clip.

But _I did_. And it was really worth it. Most of what you've come up with is amazingly close to where my own thinking has been heading. There are a few differences. For example, true to my lineage, I still favor a more back weighted stance, and shifting my weight and centerline when I turn ...but only in response to overbearing pressure -- like a shock absorber. And overall, most everything you cover does seem like _common sense_ to me, and more importantly, it _works_ for me too.

Oh well, it just goes to show that _great minds think alike_.  

BTW after having some shoulder problems some years back, I routinely do that same backwards arm stretch in a doorway, exactly as you demonstrated. It has really helped. And the dreaded WC slouch has to be avoided at all costs!


----------



## K-man (May 29, 2015)

And from a point of view different to WC, FWIW, it is exactly what I teach also.


----------



## EddieCyrax (May 29, 2015)

Thanks for sharing.  Application beyond WC here.


----------



## KPM (May 30, 2015)

Thanks guys!


----------



## wtxs (May 30, 2015)

KPM said:


> I posted this video on another thread, but the thread was dying and it didn't get much response.  But since it speaks to several things that have been talked about here recently I decided to put it up on its own.  I made this last year.  My thinking has changed a little bit since then and I do some things a bit differently after starting my study of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.  But for the most part I think what I say and show here is not far off.  If you take the time to watch the whole thing you will see:
> 
> 1.  The dreaded "Wing Chun slouch" and what to do about it.
> 2.   What I consider "optimal" biomechanics, which includes using the hips.
> ...



As you and others had pointed out in reference to item #4, the so called newly minted/discovered WC lost secret is nothing more but self promotion.  Snake engine, snake body, snake slide ... I say SNAKE OIL ... step right up and get your very own bottle, if you believe it cures what ails you, more power to you.


----------



## Hendrik (May 30, 2015)

K,

Seriously, what you post is not what I shared .

Yes, there is force flow , sake engine,.... Etc. you can't grasp it because your body is not develop for it. It is like a worm cannot think what a butterfly does.

Robert Chu knows it, Phil Romero knows it, Navin knows it. Sergio knows it , Jim knows it.........ect knows it. Their body is developed for it. It is not what you think. That is forsure.


Is it a marketing ? Snake oil? .....etc. 
nope
it is as real as gold


----------



## Hendrik (May 30, 2015)

wtxs said:


> As you and others had pointed out in reference to item #4, the so called newly minted/discovered WC lost secret is nothing more but self promotion.  Snake engine, snake body, snake slide ... I say SNAKE OIL ... step right up and get your very own bottle, if you believe it cures what ails you, more power to you.




You are free to have your opinion. But you certainly don't know what it is when you made your comment


----------



## wtxs (May 30, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> You are free to have your opinion. But you certainly don't know what it is when you made your comment



You really needed to stop drinking all that Coolaide.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> you certainly don't know ...





Hendrik said:


> you can't grasp it ...


It's not my business. But this kind of attitude (you don't, you can't, ...) won't help you in any online discussion.


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not my business. But this kind of attitude (you don't, you can't, ...) won't help you in any online discussion.



good post!!!


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> K,
> 
> Seriously, what you post is not what I shared .
> 
> ...



Hendrik,  what I showed is  EXACTLY what you described on more than one video as the difference between the "mechanical" and the "hydraulic" models.  You clearly indicated in your videos that the difference was up close and short range with short power compared to further out with more extended punches and "long arm" power.  You've said that more than once.  That is what I showed in my video.  Is that "snake engine"?  I don't know.  I said only that it is what YOU described as the "hydraulic" model.  Look, I've been trying to help you out and support you, but you seem to be your own worse enemy when it comes to these things.  You could have easily said..."yes!  Keith has a good grasp of the hydraulic model!  But this is only the surface level.  There is more to it than can be easily seen in a video."  But you didn't.  Instead you say "what you post is not what I shared"......"you can't grasp it because your body is not develop for it."  At every turn you seem to work against yourself, and I don't think you can even see that.  It's a shame, because I truly believe there is something in what you are saying.  But it suffers from your presentation.


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> ...you can't grasp it





yep, hard to grasp hydraulic fluid...


----------



## zuti car (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> K,
> 
> Seriously, what you post is not what I shared .
> 
> ...


Is it possible to meet you or sergio or robert  ...and touch hands ?


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Is it possible to meet you or sergio or robert  ...and touch hands ?



Doubtful...but perhaps you could meet them in a special biofeedback lab where you can view all the data you want!  
(but not touch hands...), besides, why would you want to get all that hydraulic fluid on you!?!?!?!?!?


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

In the other thread Hendrik wrote:

"The reason one would not be able to grasp it because one has not yet develop the body to do what I do in the video"

First we have this clip, starting at the 30 second mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMoGslryWzc

And this clip starting at the 1:30 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcT4wqkLRxA

Hendrik comments that there is nothing secret, there is no mystical “woo woo” about this.  It is simply two different power generation methods.  As I noted above, one of the primary differences between these two methods is that one is “up close” and short range with short power compared to the other which is further out with more extended punches and "long arm" power.  Hendrik states this explicitly in the first clip.

So again, I invite anyone to please go back to my video in the OP at the 12:30 mark and tell me if I am not showing the “up close” and short range version of these two models?  Am I not showing the EXACT same thing that Hendrik is showing in the videos above? 

Now, I will say this.  After starting my study of Chu Sau Lei WCK and learning more about the “Force Flow” methods from that, I am missing something in what I am showing in my video.  But this something is not seen or explained in Hendriks videos either.  So again, to the observer that knows no difference, what I am showing and what Hendrik is showing on video is the same thing.

So what am I missing? I don't think I am totally off, as Hendrik wants to suggest.  I show using the Kua to generate power up through the spine and out through an elbow structure coupled to the hip.  I am connecting to the ground and punching from the ground up.  But I am missing a few elements and it can be done better.  Now I realize that I can sink and load more into my lower body, like compressing a spring.  This engages the “bows” of the lower body better.  Then I can rise a bit as the “spring” releases and get even better power.  I know now that in my video I was putting a little too much emphasis on the hip.  A smaller motion is better because it couples better with the lower “bows.”  If you watch Hendrik in his clips he is sinking a bit into his stance as well before releasing the force into the dummy.

But rather than acknowledge that  anyone else may be on the right track, I’m sure Hendrik will continue to deny that anyone other than someone that has experienced this directly from him could have any inkling of what he is doing!

I get very frustrated because I know there is value in what Hendrik is saying.  But the way he presents it just turns too many people off.  I try to help him out, and since I haven't visited him directly he denies anything I would say in support.

Is Hendrik a "snake oil" salesman?  Absolutely not!  Just go through his posts!  He is NO kind of salesman!  ;-)   Is this a "marketing" thing?  If it is, it isn't a very successful one!  No, I think Hendrik is more like the physics professor who thinks he has discovered something new.  He tells all his colleagues that he has found something very important but they just can't understand it because they don't know his math.  He hasn't published yet, so no one really knows what he is talking about.  They tell him "but it sounds like your new physics theory is just a variation on "X"!  He tells them "no, it uses a different formula."  He shows some results of his theory, and other physicists say "but that looks like the same result when I use "X" application!  He tells them "no, your math is different."  They say "I think I know where you are coming from because I also use "X" formula."  He tells them "no, you couldn't possibly know what I am talking about." But until the professor puts his full theory with all the math, explanations, and applications out there in publication for all to see, no one is going to just accept it at his word.  I think that's where Hendrik is at.


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> I’m sure Hendrik will continue to deny that anyone other than someone that has experienced this directly from him could have any inkling of what he is doing!



I think you are correct. He hurts himself more than he helps himself with his 'holier-than-thou' attitude. It's sad really. What a miserable way to go through life. 
Good for him (and his constituents) if they have found a missing link in their WC journey...that is a good thing I guess. But, the consistent "you guys can't possibly have what I have" mantra is quite pathetic. I think the only way he'll listen or acknowledge anyone on this is if they happen to come across an even more "ancient" version of WC.


----------



## geezer (May 31, 2015)

WC isn't about what is more ancient, original, or secret. It is about efficiency and practicality. Hendrick seems to be looking strictly to the past to find keys to unlock WC's secrets. Sometimes he may find interesting and useful stuff. But more often it comes across as so much malarky to me.

Keith, on the other hand, strikes me forward-looking, trying to develop and evolve his WC, testing ideas with an open mind and common sense reasoning. 

In the end, I don't see how you can reconcile these two perspectives.


----------



## Danny T (May 31, 2015)

KPM he can't allow that anyone else understands or has the skill and attribute. That would not allow him to promote him having something no one has or understands.


----------



## Wing Chun Auckland (May 31, 2015)

The "not locking the hips" idea mentioned in the earlier part of the video is a very good point. This part alone made a very tangible improvement to my wing chun once I discovered it for myself. I was able to do all the downward movements of SNT against muscular resistance and chi sao I was able to absorb pressure way better. 

The leaning back stance is something that is quite common here in Auckland with the major schools teaching this way. I have a student who comes from one of these schools and I can literally just push his chest lightly with my finger and he will have to step back. 

There is an excellent interview with Robert Chu on wingchungeeks that talks about this. If you haven't heard or read it, it's well worth the read.Proper Wing Chun Structure with Sifu Robert Chu Obsessed With Wing Chun Kung Fu


----------



## kung fu fighter (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> As I noted above, one of the primary differences between these two methods is that one is “up close” and short range with short power compared to the other which is further out with more extended punches and "long arm" power.  Hendrik states this explicitly in the first clip.
> So again, I invite anyone to please go back to my video in the OP at the 12:30 mark and tell me if I am not showing the “up close” and short range version of these two models?  Am I not showing the EXACT same thing that Hendrik is showing in the videos above?



Keith, I know the difference between using the Kua to generate power up through the spine and out through an elbow structure coupled to the hip while being connected to the ground and force flow power generation. They are completely two different things! One can certainly use "long fist" power generation using the hip/kua at short range such as in jook Lum SPM, PSWCK, YKSWCK, Yip Man WCK or other hakka arts, but to get maximum power and efficiency as well as freedom of movement at short range one needs force flow power generation. There is no way around it, Force flow is a completely different technology!



zuti car said:


> Is it possible to meet you or sergio or robert  ...and touch hands ?


Zuti, if you are ever in the Toronto area, feel free to contact me, I would be happy to touch hands


----------



## Hendrik (May 31, 2015)

Zuti,

Navin, Robert, or Sergio all have developed the force flow with me. Navin can represent me on this subject


Keith,

I am not trying to put anyone down. It is a different technology,
Navin has gone through the training and develpment thus he is speaking with his experience.
Basically, if the body does not develop into the "snake engine " ordinary body can't do it and the mind doesn't know what it is. And it is very simple for those who has develop the engine to scan the others to see if they have the same elements. All of these are real and not woo woo.

Robert and me keep discussing how to present it so that others can understood. Up to now, no one in this forum comprehend what I am presenting yet. So I keep try...

Recently, Robert and me just meet on Friday night to discuss these things.... ...

It is all about education


Perhaps someways you will develop with this technology , that way you can present to the community with your expertise training in your field. To see develop it first hand


----------



## Hendrik (May 31, 2015)

The contrast on loading system and force flow system,


Loading means hold, that is the seed of the system. Holding and upholding. Meaning one needs to tense up and Un tense.

Force flow system deal with force flow path, it is managing the flow.


So the above two systems are different .

The body development are different. What happen is when one use to a holding and upholding system, one will not aware of the existence of the managing the flow system. Because one think in order to handling something it needs to hold .

Like holding a hammer to hit something....etc

Or a spring to store the pressure....etc. as in spring, it is physics that small spring can store only smaller energy compare with big spring. So if smaller spring is push to the point of exceed its limit it will break.

As for flow, it is similar to a high way, things can get congested but it is not the type of breakdown of a spring.

So timing of managing force flow and timing to load and unload are different. Load and unload use more local tension while force flow don't tense that much because it doesn't hold thus it feel light weight


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> I am not trying to put anyone down.



Well then, go back and read your posts and reflect... because that's exactly how you come across. I'm not sure if you're dealing with a language barrier or a cultural barrier but you are smug and your posts stink of elitism.



Hendrik said:


> Up to now, no one in this forum comprehend what I am presenting yet.



See what I mean.


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

The body development are different. What happen is when one use to a holding and upholding system, one will not aware of the existence of the managing the flow system. Because one think in order to handling something it needs to hold .

Like holding a hammer to hit something....etc

Or a spring to store the pressure....etc. as in spring, it is physics that small spring can store only smaller energy compare with big spring. So if smaller spring is push to the point of exceed its limit it will break.



------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense .Straw man arguments. I don't tense up neither do my brothers.

As for flow, it is similar to a high way, things can get congested but it is not the type of breakdown of a spring.

So timing of managing force flow and timing to load and unload are different. Load and unload use more local tension while force flow don't tense that much because it doesn't hold thus it feel light weight[/QUOTE]


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

Nonsense- straw man arguments. I don't tense up and neither do my kung fu brothers.


----------



## mograph (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> Up to now, no one in this forum comprehend what I am presenting yet.


I don't see this as offensive, but I might phrase it as "Up to now, no one in this forum has _indicated_ that they comprehend what I am presenting yet."

... which is true, isn't it? Nobody has said, "I get it. It's like this ..."

Now, the problem could lie in the transmitter, the message, and/or the receiver. Or, most likely, the medium.


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> The body development are different. What happen is when one use to a holding and upholding system, one will not aware of the existence of the managing the flow system. Because one think in order to handling something it needs to hold .
> 
> Like holding a hammer to hit something....etc
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------------------
The last two sentences are not mine.


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> Nonsense- straw man arguments.



I agree!


Hendrik thinks he knows something special. That's awesome. I'm happy for him. But I know stuff about WC that I KNOW FOR SURE Hendrik does NOT know.


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

Keith,

I am not trying to put anyone down. It is a different technology,
Navin has gone through the training and develpment thus he is speaking with his experience.
Basically, if the body does not develop into the "snake engine " ordinary body can't do it and the mind doesn't know what it is. And it is very simple for those who has develop the engine to scan the others to see if they have the same elements. All of these are real and not woo woo.

----Hendrik, the bottom line here is that no one here but you (and maybe Navin?) has the ability to "scan the others to see if they have the same elements."  So my assertion that I am SHOWING in my video the EXACT same thing you are showing in yours is true, because to anyone else watching them there isn't much difference.  You equated the "hydraulic model" to short power in close and the "mechanical model" to long power further out.  You didn't elaborate any more than that and even said there was nothing "mysterious" or "woo woo" about it.  I show short power in close and you say I don't "get it " and its completely different.  This and the assertion that the "ordinary body can't do it" certainly sounds "mysterious" and "woo woo"!!!  Your repeated efforts to deny any kind of biomechanical explanation certainly sounds "mysterious" and "woo woo"!!!   You can't even give anyone a bit of credit or acknowledge that they have some elements of what you are talking about.  That is a problem.  Don't you see that?  How can you help anyone comprehend what you are saying if you won't work with where they are at, or meet their view half-way?


Robert and me keep discussing how to present it so that others can understood. Up to now, no one in this forum comprehend what I am presenting yet. So I keep try...

---No one comprehends because you can't meet anyone half way to help them understand.  Its all or nothing for you.  No matter what I say, you will deny it.  I have been learning something about force flow.  I mentioned some of it in my post.  But you won't even acknowledge that part of it.  You used to talk all the time about the "7 bows" and their "spring-like" qualities, now you don't even acknowledge when someone is using that view of things.   So I do hope that Robert can give you some good advice, because what Alan is teaching in his on-line mentorship program doesn't contradict anything I've written.


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Keith, I know the difference between using the Kua to generate power up through the spine and out through an elbow structure coupled to the hip while being connected to the ground and force flow power generation. They are completely two different things!



Navin, can you honestly say that there is a difference between what Hendrik and I are showing in our videos that someone other than a "Force Flow" expert would see?


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> Navin, can you honestly say that there is a difference between what Hendrik and I are showing in our videos that someone other than a "Force Flow" expert would see?




Ooh....can't wait to read this response!


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

The contrast on loading system and force flow system,
Loading means hold, that is the seed of the system. Holding and upholding. Meaning one needs to tense up and Un tense.
Force flow system deal with force flow path, it is managing the flow.

---To me, I don't see loading as meaning to hold or to tense up.  That would be "bracing."  You can load into your structure without bracing.  Where does the flow of the force go when you receive pressure from someone?  Does it not go through your body and into the ground?  Will there not be some element of compression of the skeleton and soft tissues as it goes through your structure?  Then when you "refect" or "bounce" that force back into them, will there not be some element of your structure expanding?  I don't think they are that different.  It seems more like a matter of degrees of the "spring" effect.  One may be more subtle and refined than the other.  


Or a spring to store the pressure....etc. as in spring, it is physics that small spring can store only smaller energy compare with big spring. So if smaller spring is push to the point of exceed its limit it will break.

----You used to write all the time about the "7 bows" and how they acted as springs in the body.  What happened to that?


----------



## kung fu fighter (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> ----Hendrik, the bottom line here is that no one here but you (and maybe Navin?) has the ability to "scan the others to see if they have the same elements."  So my assertion that I am SHOWING in my video the EXACT same thing you are showing in yours is true, because to anyone else watching them there isn't much difference.


Keith, It's about what's going on internally, not about what the body looks like on the outside. There is a subtle difference to what Hendrik is doing that's missing in what you are doing, you know the old saying "off by an inch, miss by a mile" Hendrik is not hiding anything, it's right there in front of your eyes if you know what to look for.


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Keith, It's about what's going on internally, not about what the body looks like on the outside. There is a subtle difference to what Hendrik is doing that's missing in what you are doing, you know the old saying "off by an inch, miss by a mile" Hendrik is not hiding anything, it's right there in front of your eyes if you know what to look for.



Which proves my point about how anyone other than a "force flow" expert watching those videos is going to see them as pretty much the same thing.  The fact that Hendrik cannot acknowledge that and then use it to try to explain what is missing and "fill in the gaps" is one of the main reasons he has such a hard time getting people to understand what he is trying to explain. 

He could have said...."look at what Keith is doing here.  This is very good basic short power and is the beginning of the hydraulic model.  But now he needs to do........"  But he can't meet anyone half way.  Its all or nothing. So he wonders why no one gets what he is saying when he posts in the forums!


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> It is all about education



Indeed. So, Maestro Santo, is this why you denigrate and belittle the masses and withhold your sermons...because "it is all about education"???


----------



## kung fu fighter (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> The fact that Hendrik cannot acknowledge that and then use it to try to explain what is missing and "fill in the gaps" is one of the main reasons he has such a hard time getting people to understand what he is trying to explain.He could have said...."look at what Keith is doing here.  This is very good basic short power and is the beginning of the hydraulic model.  But now he needs to do........"  But he can't meet anyone half way.  Its all or nothing. So he wonders why no one gets what he is saying when he posts in the forums!


What you are doing is not the beginning of the hydraulic mode, why should he mislead you or others in order to apease you. You think he can just "filling in the gaps" of what took him over 40 years of daily training to get to, it's not that simple, one have to go through his 6 core elements training process in order to fully grasp and understand it.


Hendrik is the Grandmaster/gatekeeper of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam wing chun Branch, which is the oldest surviving linage of wing chun.  you guys have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that he has, He should be respected and appreciated for what he shares on here instead of you bickering with him all the time.


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> Keith,
> 
> I am not trying to put anyone down. It is a different technology,
> Navin has gone through the training and develpment thus he is speaking with his experience.
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again- 1. I have chi saoed with Hendrik in his home. Was not impressed

2. I have seen Navin's video of his snake body. Was not impressed.

3.Have seen many of Sergio's videos- lots of marketing there

4. Met Phil briefly in early May- good guy; he went with a kung fu brother of mine to
Germany for a seminar. He has met hendrik but I see no new parting of the waves in what he does.

5. Hendrik's posts are a creeping sludge on discussions.


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> What you are doing is not the beginning of the hydraulic mode, why should he mislead you or others in order to apease you. You think he can just "filling in the gaps" of what took him over 40 years of daily training to get to, it's not that simple, one have to go through the training process in order to fully understand it.
> 
> 
> Hendrik is the Grandmaster/gatekeeper of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam wing chun Branch, which is the oldest surviving linage of wing chun.  you guys have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that he has, He should be respected and appreciated for what he shares on here instead of you bickering with him all the time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bickering with him is not my intention anyway. But commenting when he makes straw men of other wing chun- tiresome-
but warranted.


----------



## kung fu fighter (May 31, 2015)

KPM said:


> I don't see loading as meaning to hold or to tense up.  That would be "bracing."  You can load into your structure without bracing.


The biomechanics that you are using in your video is certainly better than bracing and is superior to 99% of the wing chun out there, trust me I've done my research! however force flow is that elite 1% which it does not work on lol


----------



## KPM (May 31, 2015)

What you are doing is not the beginning of the hydraulic mode, why should he mislead you or others in order to apease you.

---Navin.  I have pointed out multiple times now that Hendrik put up videos about the "hydraulic model vs. mechanical model."  He gave a simple demo and explanation and said that there was nothing mysterious about it and it isn't "woo woo."  I show a video that demos exactly the same action he is showing on his videos (at least to the non-expert observer) and rather than say WHY this is not the same as his "hydraulic model" (when to the casual observer it looks like the EXACT same thing)...instead he dismisses the whole thing and says that none of us get it.  How is that NOT misleading?  How is it asking him to "appease" anyone by simply expecting him to explain what he is talking about and how it is different?


 You think he can just "filling in the gaps" of what took him over 40 years of daily training to get to, it's not that simple, one have to go through the training process in order to fully understand it.

---But wait.  Hendrik said it wasn't mysterious or "woo woo" and really implied it was quite simple.  He doesn't understand why no one on the forums "gets it" from his posts and his video clips.  Now you are saying that its not simple and one has to "go through the training process in order to understand it."  Then why is Hendrik posting?  Why is he purporting to be so interested in "education" on the forums?  If this is not something that can be grasped or explained from a biomechanical standpoint, then how is it relatively simple and not "mysterious"?  I'm afraid I'm a bit confused and more than a little frustrated with Hendrik.  And remember, I've tried to be on "his side" throughout all this.



Hendrik is the Grandmaster/gatekeeper of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam wing chun Branch, which is the oldest surviving linage of wing chun.  you guys have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that he has, He should be respected and appreciated for what he shares on here instead of you bickering with him all the time.

---Navin, do you not see that he brings all this upon himself in the way he presents his material? I have no doubt that Hendrik has a wealth of information to share.  What Hendrik needs is to train someone that understands well what he is about, and then have that someone be his spokesman on the forums.  He needs someone with English as a primary language, someone that understands biomechanics well, and someone that has lots of experience in Wing Chun.


----------



## Kwan Sau (May 31, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Hendrik is the Grandmaster/gatekeeper of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam wing chun Branch, which is the oldest surviving linage of wing chun.  you guys have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that he has, He should be respected and appreciated for what he shares on here instead of you bickering with him all the time.



Kung Fu Fighter, 
I hear what you're saying...BUT, Hendrik is not going to get any respect or appreciation while he treats the rest of us like some half-witted morons. He also is not going to get anywhere in his so-called 'grandmastership' while he continually and consistently redirects any feedback, questions, etc directed at him. 
Look dude, it comes down to this: Hendrik, his ancient wing chun, and his gang, may be the baddest wing chun mo-fo's on this planet...but look at it from our perspective! He has been asked repeatedly to show his superior method in a more combative/dynamic setting...yet all us "common folk" get is more of the "go to biofeedback lab" or 15 minute videos of Hendrik in mortal combat with his wooden dummy trunk in his backyard. 
Iphone or not, hydraulic or not, 7 bows or not, worms crawling/snakes sliding or not...I'm happy that you, Robert, Sergio, Hendrik, etc have found true enlightenment...but enough is enough man! I could just as easily say: "hey, everyone, look over here! I've discovered / created a missing link about long lost wing chun! Oh, and Hendrik doesn't know what I know because his body / awareness just isn't conditioned for it and therefore could never understand what I know. " 
I could create an "8 bows" and "warp drive" engine for my new creation...
He (Grandmaster Hendrik) would be incensed if I always redirected / ignored any of his questions (from multiple forums over years). 
Anyway, sorry for the long post...


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Kung Fu Fighter,
> I hear what you're saying...BUT, Hendrik is not going to get any respect or appreciation while he treats the rest of us like some half-witted morons. He also is not going to get anywhere in his so-called 'grandmastership' while he continually and consistently redirects any feedback, questions, etc directed at him.
> Look dude, it comes down to this: Hendrik, his ancient wing chun, and his gang, may be the baddest wing chun mo-fo's on this planet...but look at it from our perspective! He has been asked repeatedly to show his superior method in a more combative/dynamic setting...yet all us "common folk" get is more of the "go to biofeedback lab" or 15 minute videos of Hendrik in mortal combat with his wooden dummy trunk in his backyard.
> Iphone or not, hydraulic or not, 7 bows or not, worms crawling/snakes sliding or not...I'm happy that you, Robert, Sergio, Hendrik, etc have found true enlightenment...but enough is enough man! I could just as easily say: "hey, everyone, look over here! I've discovered / created a missing link about long lost wing chun! Oh, and Hendrik doesn't know what I know because his body / awareness just isn't conditioned for it and therefore could never understand what I know. "
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re "grandmaster". Wong Kew Kit(sp?) is Hendrik's senior in his art- you might google him.You might also google cho family arts in SE asia.
It's quite jumbled- much of it often mixed with hung ga and choi li fut- though Hendrik siphons all that stuff out to "keep" old" pure" which happened to be validated.Lots of folks these days watch huge amount of videos including the grandmaster and create their stories.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
nap time


----------



## kung fu fighter (May 31, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Re "grandmaster". Wong Kew Kit(sp?) is Hendrik's senior in his art- you might google him.You might also google cho family arts in SE asia.
> It's quite jumbled- much of it often mixed with hung ga and choi li fut- though Hendrik siphons all that stuff out to "keep" old" pure" which happened to be validated.Lots of folks these days watch huge amount of videos including the grandmaster and create their stories.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
> nap time


There was two martial arts taught by the Cho family, one for the public which was a mixture of wing chun, choy lay fut, and hung ga, and pure wing chun transmitted by Yik Kam that was reserved only for the Cho family bloodline. Wong Kew Kit(sp?) may have very well started his training before Hendrik, however he learnt the public version mixture. Hendrik was the adopted godson of GM Cho hung Choi so he had the privilege to learn the pure Yik Kam wing chun that was reserved only for the Cho family bloodline.


----------



## Hendrik (May 31, 2015)

mograph said:


> I don't see this as offensive, but I might phrase it as "Up to now, no one in this forum has _indicated_ that they comprehend what I am presenting yet."
> 
> ... which is true, isn't it? Nobody has said, "I get it. It's like this ..."
> 
> Now, the problem could lie in the transmitter, the message, and/or the receiver. Or, most likely, the medium.




Thanks and appreciate!


----------



## Hendrik (May 31, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> There was two martial arts taught by the Cho family, one for the public which was a mixture of wing chun, choy lay fut, and hung ga, and pure wing chun transmitted by Yik Kam that was reserved only for the Cho family bloodline. Wong Kew Kit(sp?) may have very well started his training before Hendrik, however he learnt the public version mixture. Hendrik was the adopted godson of GM Cho hung Choi so he had the privilege to learn the pure Yik Kam wing chun that was reserved only for the Cho family bloodline.




It is not a secret that my late sifu express to my siheng dai he don't like the way Wong knew kit change the set he taught Wong.

Wong is not an indoor student like my other siheng dai and myself. This can be a public record.

I am not the god son, but my sifu tread me like a son , I have letters from my sifu to proof this. As for how much Infomation I inherit from him, there also written record. but that is not the point.

The point is the power generation mechanics . Get Navin into a physic lab, and let the scientist rate his 
Force flow generation


----------



## Hendrik (May 31, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Re "grandmaster". Wong Kew Kit(sp?) is Hendrik's senior in his art- you might google him.You might also google cho family arts in SE asia.
> It's quite jumbled- much of it often mixed with hung ga and choi li fut- though Hendrik siphons all that stuff out to "keep" old" pure" which happened to be validated.Lots of folks these days watch huge amount of videos including the grandmaster and create their stories.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
> nap time




You don't even know what I am talking about. Why jump gun ?
Since Phil Romero is close to you. Ask him on my art before you jump gun


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> You don't even know what I am talking about. Why jump gun ?
> Since Phil Romero is close to you. Ask him on my art before you jump gun


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course I don't know what you are talking about much of the time.
You do need help.


----------



## Vajramusti (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> It is not a secret that my late sifu express to my siheng dai he don't like the way Wong knew kit change the set he taught Wong.
> 
> Wong is not an indoor student like my other siheng dai and myself. This can be a public record.
> 
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For it to be interesting there has to be testing before and after he has been exposed to your snake-
wouldn't you say? Or is that distinction not important.?


----------



## zuti car (May 31, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Doubtful...but perhaps you could meet them in a special biofeedback lab where you can view all the data you want!
> (but not touch hands...), besides, why would you want to get all that hydraulic fluid on you!?!?!?!?!?


Well I am planning to go to HK soon to visit some friend friends, I will try to find Sergio .... It would be interesting to see how their stuff works against non complying opponent


----------



## zuti car (May 31, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> Zuti,
> 
> Navin, Robert, or Sergio all have developed the force flow with me. Navin can represent me on this subject


That is why I want to meet you , you should be the best because you are the source of these stuff ,. Why putting a "representative" between us , I want simple chi sao section , it doesn't have to be long , a minute or two that is all I need.


----------



## zuti car (May 31, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Zuti, if you are ever in the Toronto area, feel free to contact me, I would be happy to touch hands


I seriously doubt I will ever go Canada , but if , by some miracle , I come , I will contact you


----------



## VT_Vectis (Jun 1, 2015)

This right here has made reading this thread worthwhile, for me, at least. "Before and after he's been exposed to your snake..." Ha! Genius. 

Anyway, I have to say that although I bow to you all in being my seniors and knowing far more than i do about Ving Tsun, this thread is a fine example of what is wrong with WC, CMA and TMA in general.

Just get in the ring and stop belly aching on line. Who cares who has "the oldest", "the most snake like", the Force (flow). As long as you can use VT to do what it's there for ie. twat someone in the face and do it well, then you could be using the badger force engine for all I care. 

You want the oldest? Go take up English Classical Pugilism, it's got a documented, provable history longer than any CMA, and there's no confusion about the generation of punching power. Failing that just do VT for functionality, for gods sake if you can use it, you've got the real deal, the secret sauce, the snake/crane engine. 

Remember it's meant to be Simple. Direct. Effective.

With respect, and tongue firmly in cheek,your brother in VT.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Hendrik is the Grandmaster/gatekeeper of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam wing chun Branch, which is the oldest surviving linage of wing chun.  you guys have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that he has, He should be respected and appreciated for what he shares on here instead of you bickering with him all the time.


Why don't you ask Cho gar people what they have to say about Hendrink being grandmaster \gatekeeper of anything.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 1, 2015)

I care less to be agr


zuti car said:


> I seriously doubt I will ever go Canada , but if , by some miracle , I come , I will contact you



instead of keeping posting on Looking for Sergio in this forum.

It is well known that
Sergio is in Taiwan now meeting wcners and other style martial artists, check out his Facebook and contact him . 


No point to keep posting here , we are not Sergio.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 1, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Why don't you ask Cho gar people what they have to say about Hendrink being grandmaster \gatekeeper of anything.




Can you focus on the topic?

It doesn't matter what others option on me.  And I care less.

You want yo know the facts.



Navin have gone through the sixteen hours of six core elements training, ask him how his skill compare  With before the training.

Or even better, since you have claim to have lots of contact, fix Navin up with physics lab, pay for the expense for the force flow objective monitoring , and post the result.

It is even better if you can go to Taiwan university for the same experiment or post a video on how yourself perform.  Keep talking on good opinion doesn't get to these solid facts.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 1, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> Navin gone through the sixteen hours of six core elements, ask him how his skill different.



Good idea! 

Navin,
Can you describe to us what the sixteen hours of six core elements consisted of and how it impacted your skill? 
*in order for your response to have weight, could you also tell us what your skills, training, etc was like before you received the 16 hours, etc? 
Thank you.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 1, 2015)

You care for the oldest, most authentic.....gate keeper....etc?

I care less....


My bottom line is here. Let the facts speak for itself










VT_Vectis said:


> This right here has made reading this thread worthwhile, for me, at least. "Before and after he's been exposed to your snake..." Ha! Genius.
> 
> Anyway, I have to say that although I bow to you all in being my seniors and knowing far more than i do about Ving Tsun, this thread is a fine example of what is wrong with WC, CMA and TMA in general.
> 
> ...





VT_Vectis said:


> This right here has made reading this thread worthwhile, for me, at least. "Before and after he's been exposed to your snake..." Ha! Genius.
> 
> Anyway, I have to say that although I bow to you all in being my seniors and knowing far more than i do about Ving Tsun, this thread is a fine example of what is wrong with WC, CMA and TMA in general.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 1, 2015)

Folks, things are getting a little heated, again. It's clear that some of you will just never see eye to eye.
If this is the case, I strongly encourage you to use the sites IGNORE feature.
Continuing the current exchange of insults and sniping will only result in thread being locked and points being issued.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> I care less to be agr
> 
> 
> instead of keeping posting on Looking for Sergio in this forum.
> ...


He is on Taiwan? Where ?


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 1, 2015)

Kudos to Zuti for making the attempt to meet up with these guys. I hope it works out. Would be interested in hearing the feedback after the meet up. I'd also like to meet up because a forum description of what HS does just isnt cutting it. Too much is lost in language and keyboard barriers. However, based on the names HS has mentioned, there is nobody near me. So, will be interested to hear what Zuti says.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> Can you focus on the topic?
> 
> It doesn't matter what others option on me.  And I care less.
> 
> ...


My shirt still has buttons at front, not at back. Why would I do any of these things ? Simplest thing is to meet and compare skills, either you are better than me or not . I don't have a problem to admit if someone is better than me, there are people who practice much more than I do, have more knowledge and more experience  and it is natural they are better. Now, you are saying you have some superior skill but you are not willing to test it against real opponent . I wonder why ? And opinion of Cho gar people matters , actually matters a lot , it is their art ,they know it the best and they know how much of their art other people learned .


----------



## JPinAZ (Jun 1, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> What you are doing is not the beginning of the hydraulic mode, why should he mislead you or others in order to apease you. You think he can just "filling in the gaps" of what took him over 40 years of daily training to get to, it's not that simple, one have to go through his 6 core elements training process in order to fully grasp and understand it.



Huh, I'm confused.. 
Something that took Hendrik 40 years of daily training, but he also claims is something that can be taught/learned in only 16 hours?? LOL, either he's the worst WC student on the planet, or this '40 years' is exactly what it is: him piecing together what he openly admitted many times is as he views it, incomplete WC - using other kung fu styles to gather these 'lost bits' of information (ie - filling in the gaps). 
How can he be training something for 40 years, where a lot of this information was only recently 'discovered' by him in the past 10-15? 



kung fu fighter said:


> Hendrik is the Grandmaster/gatekeeper of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam wing chun Branch, which is the oldest surviving linage of wing chun.  you guys have no idea of the vast wealth of knowledge that he has, He should be respected and appreciated for what he shares on here instead of you bickering with him all the time.



First, is he the gate keeper of Cho Family? I remember several instances in the past where Cho family members did not endorse this claim, nor fully approve of his research 'findings'.

Also, why should he be so respected? If he is truly the lineage holder, why did he not get the full transmission of the system from his teacher and why did he have to research for so many years to fill in all of the missing gaps? (his claim)
You realize, this is saying Hendrik's seniors did not even know their whole system, yet somehow Hendrik, their junior, does? What is he the gatekeeper of if it's pretty obvious he didn't feel Cho family even had everything for their own lineage!!


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 1, 2015)

zuti car said:


> He is on Taiwan? Where ?



It is a public Infomation , 
Go check his Facebook, it has been week since Sergio post his photo in Taiwan almost everyday .


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 1, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Good idea!
> 
> Navin,
> Can you describe to us what the sixteen hours of six core elements consisted of and how it impacted your skill?
> ...



Sure! the sixteen hours of 6 Core Elements consists of:

1. Physical Body (Joints, Muscle) Biomechanics

2. Mind (Thinking, Intention, Visualizations, Awareness)

3. Breathing (Lower Abdominal Breathing)

4. Qi (Grow, Flow, Bio-Mechanical Bio-Electrical)

5. Jin (Force Flow, Force Path, Action-Reaction Force)

6. Momentum (Movement Handling, Tendency of Movement)



Kwan Sau said:


> *in order for your response to have weight, could you also tell us what your skills, training, etc was like before you received the 16 hours, etc?
> Thank you.



After about 8 years into my Yip Man wing chun training, doing chi sao every day for hours with different training partners and experimenting with different energies. I started to experience a mental state every few months or so where every thing I did felt effortless and fluid to the point where I had complete control of my training partner's balance and could do anything I wanted to them at willI, I am in complete control of his balance/center of gravity and I am stuck to him like glue, I could read their minds before they physically moved.  My training partner's whom had years of experience on me said they felt my center line was wide open, but when they attacked, they were sucked into something like a tornado and couldn't get out. On the days I was in this state everything felt effortless and fluid, then sometimes a few months might go by before I was able to experience it again. Basicly my ability was not stable to the point where I could not duplicate this ability at will. Intuitively I knew that there had to be more to wing chun than what was passed on by Yip Man because of this experience.This was the main driving force or desire which ignited my interest into researching the mainland wing chun linages to see what was already there instead of reinventing the wheel so to speak. After exploring several mainland branches of wing chun, I decided to delve deeper into kulo Pin Sun wing chun exclusively. I really liked the efficiency of how this system is taught as well as how they interpret and apply their concepts and principles. I also liked the coiling circular nature of their chi sao platforms done at different ranges since it complemented what I was already doing. during this time period of my training, my power generation bio-mechanics was very similar to what Keith demoed on his video with an emphasis on waist/kua power. at the time I was quite satisfied with this especially due to the fact I sparred with a few Pro MMA fighters at Randy couture' gym and none of them was able to take me down, they all said I had a really good base from a wrestling perspective but I was using my wck bio-mechanics not wrestling. When I met Hendrik, he explained alot of the key details that opened up a whole new world for me. Although the KLPSWC bio-mechanics I was previously using was powerful, it did not have the same effect on the opponent's center axis and balance as the force flow method. The best way to discribe it is that the KLPSWC bio-mechanics has a very powerful explosive effect, while the Force flow method has a very powerful implode effect.


----------



## mograph (Jun 1, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Intuitively I knew that there had to be more to wing chun than what was passed on by Yip Man because of this experience.


To me, this is key:  "... what was _passed on_ by Yip Man ..." ... I've highlighted it in case anyone interprets Navin as saying that there was more to WC than what Yip Man _knew_.

Navin, would it be strictly accurate to say that you found that this experience led you to believe that there was more to WC than you had _learned_ from Yip Man?

(Just treading carefully ...)


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 1, 2015)

Thanks for the response KFF.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 1, 2015)

mograph said:


> To me, this is key:  "... what was _passed on_ by Yip Man ..." ... I've highlighted it in case anyone interprets Navin as saying that there was more to WC than what Yip Man _knew_.
> 
> Navin, would it be strictly accurate to say that you found that this experience led you to believe that there was more to WC than you had _learned_ from Yip Man?
> 
> (Just treading carefully ...)



Is he saying he learned from yip man (?) or from one of his 1st or 2nd generation students (?)


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 1, 2015)

mograph said:


> To me, this is key:  "... what was _passed on_ by Yip Man ..." ... I've highlighted it in case anyone interprets Navin as saying that there was more to WC than what Yip Man _knew_.
> 
> Navin, would it be strictly accurate to say that you found that this experience led you to believe that there was more to WC than you had _learned_ from Yip Man?
> 
> (Just treading carefully ...)





Kwan Sau said:


> Is he saying he learned from yip man (?) or from one of his 1st or 2nd generation students (?)



No, I did not learn directly from Yip Man, my sifus in the Yip Man Branch were Yip Man's 1st and 2nd generation students.


----------



## mograph (Jun 1, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> No, I did not learn directly from Yip Man, my sifus in the Yip Man Branch were Yip Man's 1st and 2nd generation students.


Ah, of course. So you were referring to the teachings that Yip Man passed on to his students, your sifus. Got it!


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> It is a public Infomation ,
> Go check his Facebook, it has been week since Sergio post his photo in Taiwan almost everyday .


I don't follow Sergio on FB


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

I want to apologize to anyone who felt threatened by my invitation to chi sao practice. It is definitely not a challenge , just a friendly invitation for some practice and skill comparison . If i really wanted to challenge someone i certainly wouldn't post that on public forum .


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2015)

zuti car said:


> I want to apologize to anyone who felt threatened by my invitation to chi sao practice. It is definitely not a challenge , just a friendly invitation for some practice and skill comparison . If i really wanted to challenge someone i certainly wouldn't post that on public forum .


That's a good attitude to have. If you think that you are good, let's spar/wrestle for 15 rounds and see what the outcome may be (the luck may work in 3 rounds testing but won't work in 15 rounds testing). I still remember my teacher used to say, "If you think you are good, come and show me." It just seems to me that this kind of attitude is getting less and less popular in the 21rth century for no good reason.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 1, 2015)

zuti car said:


> I don't follow Sergio on FB




You ask for it, now you know where to contact him. He is in Taiwan.

For me, you seem always like to challenge but then back off when others get serious.

Navin offer you to Canada, and Sergio is in Taiwan or your backyard ,  Robert is in LA. .. So, feel free to visit them


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 1, 2015)

zuti car said:


> I want to apologize to anyone who felt threatened by my invitation to chi sao practice. It is definitely not a challenge , just a friendly invitation for some practice and skill comparison . If i really wanted to challenge someone i certainly wouldn't post that on public forum .



You did posting challenge me in this forum didn't you? Lol


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's a good attitude to have. If you think that you are good, let's spar/wrestle for 15 rounds and see what the outcome may be (the luck may work in 3 rounds testing but won't work in 15 rounds testing). I still remember my teacher always said, "If you think you are good, come and show me." It just seems to me that this kind of attitude is getting less and less popular in the 21rth century.


That's the thing, people want to be recognized as masters , grandmasters , or whatever but they refuse to do even a friendly sparring where nothing besides ego can be hurt . Now , we have strange situation , some people say they have superior skill and knowledge, but when asked to demonstrate that prove their claims true ( in a safest possible way) they got scared and refuse to do it. Hendrik here is ready to do everything to avoid meeting people , even to put his followers between him and others. Now , that says a lot about him and his skill.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> You did posting challenge me in this forum didn't you? Lol


No , if i wanted to challenge you i would just appear in front of your house , but i don't do such things, especially not to people incapable to defend themselves


----------



## zuti car (Jun 1, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> You ask for it, now you know where to contact him. He is in Taiwan.
> 
> For me, you seem always like to challenge but then back off when others get serious.
> 
> Navin offer you to Canada, and Sergio is in Taiwan or your backyard ,  Robert is in LA. .. So, feel free to visit them


Now , i have to go Canada for couple of minutes chi sao? Really? You are putting others in front of you , why? Are you afraid ? you aren't afraid for them? Aren't they your students or friends?  How come, if you consider me as threat , do not care about the safety of your students but deliberately directing me to them? This clearly shows what kind of person you are .Like i said , i don't follow sergio , nor other people on FB , just my friends and family , but i will check


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 2, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Sure! the sixteen hours of 6 Core Elements consists of:
> 
> 1. Physical Body (Joints, Muscle) Biomechanics
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My gosh. Where do I begin My comments are not directed at Navin as a person who I met once in Toronto( we did not chi sao). I did share briefly with him a wing chun defense against some one coming in low.. First I am glad that Navin thinks that his wing chun has improved and that he  has learned something from Hendrik.

 Of course Navin did not train with Ip Man.Navin's first teacher learned from a Moy Yat student who built a chain of schools in Canada. Further to the best of my knowledge Moy Yat did not do regular chi sao with Ip Man. Even his knowledge of the kwan it seems was based on Ip Man using chop sticks at a dim sum joint.I think that Navin's comment on Ip Man and his wing chun is based on very incomplete information.

Six core elements? They are variously stated and restated under different labels a s harmonies or equivalents in neijia arts. Videos list them often.
Again- ok to learn whatever from whoever-but it is silly to hold Ip Man responsible for ones own shortcomings.Good night folks

One of the problems is that since Ip Man died all kinds of claims to authority has grown like mushrooms specially via Youtube. Success has thousand fathers.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 2, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Now , i have to go Canada for couple of minutes chi sao? Really? You are putting others in front of you , why? Are you afraid ? you aren't afraid for them? Aren't they your students or friends?  How come, if you consider me as threat , do not care about the safety of your students but deliberately directing me to them? This clearly shows what kind of person you are .Like i said , i don't follow sergio , nor other people on FB , just my friends and family , but i will check




Seriously,

Read your post number 15 in this thread. You ask for Sergio.
Stop playing with words, Sergio is in Taiwan and i have tell you for days.

Any of my student can handle you with ease. That is the bottom line
Navin even volumtee for it.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 2, 2015)

Admin,

Since post 15 this person is direct and indirectly challenge me, even though I try my best to avoid confrontation with him so  you guys don't accuse of me or give me warning when I response to challenge. But you guys never step in when others challenge me.






zuti car said:


> Now , i have to go Canada for couple of minutes chi sao? Really? You are putting others in front of you , why? Are you afraid ?
> 
> 
> you aren't afraid for them? Aren't they your students or friends?  How come, if you consider me as threat , do not care about the safety of your students but deliberately directing me to them?
> ...


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 2, 2015)

copied from Zuti's post #15:  "_ Is it possible to meet you or sergio or robert ...and touch hands ?_ "

Hendrik, how else is he supposed to phrase it so you are not feeling threatened?????????  His post #15 seems pretty calm and nonthreatening if you ask me. 
Was he supposed to use words like "pretty please", "may I", or "I'd be honored to meet/touch hands with..." ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Oh, and "touch hands" is pretty standard terminology in the wide wing chun community.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 2, 2015)

Joy,

My advise for you is to not comment before you know what is what




Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My gosh. Where do I begin My comments are not directed at Navin as a person who I met once in Toronto( we did not chi sao). I did share briefly with him a wing chun defense against some one coming in low.. First I am glad that Navin thinks that his wing chun has improved and that he  has learned something from Hendrik.
> 
> Of course Navin did not train with Ip Man.Navin's first teacher learned from a Moy Yat student who built a chain of schools in Canada. Further to the best of my knowledge Moy Yat did not do regular chi sao with Ip Man. Even his knowledge of the kwan it seems was based on Ip Man using chop sticks at a dim sum joint.I think that Navin's comment on Ip Man and his wing chun is based on very incomplete information.
> ...


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 2, 2015)

Kwan sau,

Read all his posts.

And I would appreciate if you stay out of this.






Kwan Sau said:


> copied from Zuti's post #15:  "_ Is it possible to meet you or sergio or robert ...and touch hands ?_ "
> 
> Hendrik, how else is he supposed to phrase it so you are not feeling threatened?????????  His post #15 seems pretty calm and nonthreatening if you ask me.
> Was he supposed to use words like "pretty please", "may I", or "I'd be honored to meet/touch hands with..." ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
> Oh, and "touch hands" is pretty standard terminology in the wide wing chun community.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 2, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> Kwan sau, And I would appreciate if you stay out of this.



Careful with that tone...I might feel threatened and send posts to an Admin. 
Hendrik, this is AMERICA, and this is a public forum...I wasn't being rude...just stating some obvious observations.   nuff said dude.


----------



## Grenadier (Jun 2, 2015)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this thread civil. 

Further uncivil behavior will result in the issuance of penalty points that can lead to the suspension, or banning, of your account.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Administrator


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 2, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> My comments are not directed at Navin as a person who I met once in Toronto( we did not chi sao). I did share briefly with him a wing chun defense against some one coming in low..


I appreciate that Joy, and I do remember you sharing a wing chun defense against some one coming in low. I can honestly say I enjoyed the conversations we had over coffee with my sihing Roy, however you are inaccurate about a few things in your post.




Vajramusti said:


> Navin's first teacher learned from a Moy Yat student who built a chain of schools in Canada.


My first wing chun teacher was a senior student of Moy Yat's from Hong Kong, his name is Sunny Tang (Dunn wah), he did not learned from a Moy Yat student. In fact He was Yip Man's Nabour. He drove Yip Man to the Teahouse on a nightly basis where various members of the wing chun clan gathered and hang out including Moy Yat, WSL, TST, Tang Sang and others. Sifu had a good relationship with Yip Man, but due to tradition he could only call one person in the same wing chun linage sifu, that person was Moy Yat. although he had many opportunies to interact with Yip Man directly, Yip Man gave my sifu the nick name "The Rock" due to his reputation as a fighter. In fact other senior students of Moy Yat's switched over to learn directly from Yip Man such as Sam Lau, but sifu remained loyal to Moy Yat due to his respect for him as a great teacher whom had profound understanding of Yip Man's art. If you ask  any of Yip Man's senior students, they would tell you Yip did not like to repeat things, if you got great, if you didn't he would move on. Yip Man liked Moy Yat due to the fact that Moy Yat was a very intelligent guy who could pick up right away what Yip Man was trying to impart to him right. Moy Yat would often say " wing chun is not for stupid people", he was not trying to insult anyone, but was trying to point out how simple the system is, which is very profound.



Vajramusti said:


> Further to the best of my knowledge Moy Yat did not do regular chi sao with Ip Man. Even his knowledge of the kwan it seems was based on Ip Man using chop sticks at a dim sum joint.I think that Navin's comment on Ip Man and his wing chun is based on very incomplete information.


Perhaps Moy Yat didn't do chi sao in public with Yip Man, but he had plenty of opportunities behind closed doors as a deciple of Yip Man's. Moy Yat was Yip Ching's direct training partner so I am sure he would have have plenty of opportunities when Yip Man was correcting his son. Moy Yat's Kwan is the exact same sequence as Yip Ching's, he must have been a genius to pick that up using chop sticks at a dim sum. lol



Vajramusti said:


> Six core elements? They are variously stated and restated under different labels a s harmonies or equivalents in neijia arts. Videos list them often.


6 harmonies and 6 core elements are different things:

Six harmonies

Deals with the 3 pairings of joints:
1) The hands harmonize with the feet.
2) The hips harmonize with the shoulders.
3) The elbows harmonize with the knees.

6 Core Elements

1. Physical Body (Joints, Muscle) Biomechanics
2. Mind (Thinking, Intention, Visualizations, Awareness)
3. Breathing (Lower Abdominal Breathing)
4. Qi (Grow, Flow, Bio-Mechanical Bio-Electrical)
5. Jin (Force Flow, Force Path, Action-Reaction Force)
6. Momentum (Movement Handling, Tendency of Movement)




Vajramusti said:


> it is silly to hold Ip Man responsible for ones own shortcomings.



Joy, My comment about what Yip Man passed on is not solely based upon Moy Yat's linage, I spent 10 years exploring what Yip Man taught to his various senior students including WSL, TST, Duncan Leung, Allan Lee, William cheung, as well as your wck God Ho Kam Ming and some of his last match of deciples in Toronto etc., *None of them have force flow or the wealth of knowledge that Hendrik has. Why do you think even Robert Chu and others are now learning from him after their spending decades investment into Yip Man wck. Robert has met and trained with the who's who in yip man wing chun including those i mentioned above.*


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 2, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My gosh. Where do I begin My comments are not directed at Navin as a person who I met once in Toronto( we did not chi sao). I did share briefly with him a wing chun defense against some one coming in low.. First I am glad that Navin thinks that his wing chun has improved and that he  has learned something from Hendrik.
> 
> Of course Navin did not train with Ip Man.Navin's first teacher learned from a Moy Yat student who built a chain of schools in Canada. Further to the best of my knowledge Moy Yat did not do regular chi sao with Ip Man. Even his knowledge of the kwan it seems was based on Ip Man using chop sticks at a dim sum joint.I think that Navin's comment on Ip Man and his wing chun is based on very incomplete information.
> ...





kung fu fighter said:


> I appreciate that Joy, and I do remember you sharing a wing chun defense against some one coming in low. I can honestly say I enjoyed the conversations we had over coffee with my sihing Roy, however you are inaccurate about a few things in your post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW- see Mike Sigman's essay on "internal strength" where he talks among other things of 3 internal harmonies as part of 6 in internal work.
Lotsof lifting without crediting is unfortunately part of the media driven world.Seriously, Robert and I used to argue years ago but we gave that up-a good idea. You can believe what you want to and name drop all you want to..


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 2, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FWIW- see Mike Sigman's essay on "internal strength" where he talks among other things of 3 internal harmonies as part of 6 in internal work.
> Lotsof lifting without crediting is unfortunately part of the media driven world.Seriously, Robert and I used to argue years ago but we gave that up-a good idea. You can believe what you want to and name drop all you want to..



Many years ago, I bought Mike Sigman's How to do internal strength DVD's, What he discusses on the DVD's is Tai chi's Peng jing which he refers to as ground reaction force, So I am very familar with his work, this is very different to wck snake engine force flow.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Many years ago, I bought Mike Sigman's How to do internal strength DVD's, What he discusses on the DVD's is Tai chi's *Peng jing which he refers to as ground reaction force*, So I am very familar with his work, this is very different to wck snake engine force flow.



ah no, peng jing is not ground reaction force. I have never read anything from Mike Sigman but if that is what he said he is incorrect. However Chen Xiaowang is not incorrect



> The best peng jin is the energy which circulates to every portion of the body. It is not too much and not too little. It is just the right amount. Then that person has very good peng jin. - Chen Xiaowang



It can also be referred to as expanding energy or inflatable energy but it is not ground reaction force.


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 2, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> FWIW- see Mike Sigman's essay on "internal strength" where he talks among other things of 3 internal harmonies as part of 6 in internal work.


Please provide the link!



Xue Sheng said:


> ah no, peng jing is not ground reaction force. I have never read anything from Mike Sigman but if that is what he said he is incorrect. However Chen Xiaowang is not incorrect
> It can also be referred to as expanding energy or inflatable energy but it is not ground reaction force.


Here are the two complete Mike Sigman DVD's that i have:
*[EDIT: Links removed due to copyright violation - Dirty Dog]*


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> ah no, peng jing is not ground reaction force. I have never read anything from Mike Sigman but if that is what he said he is incorrect. However Chen Xiaowang is not incorrect
> 
> It can also be referred to as expanding energy or inflatable energy but it is not ground reaction force.


Agree! You can have Peng Jing while you are sitting on a chair without feet touching the ground.


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 2, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FWIW- see Mike Sigman's essay on "internal strength" where he talks among other things of 3 internal harmonies as part of 6 in internal work.
> Lotsof lifting without crediting is unfortunately part of the media driven world.Seriously, Robert and I used to argue years ago but we gave that up-a good idea. You can believe what you want to and name drop all you want to..





Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! You can have Peng Jing while you are sitting on a chair without feet touching the ground.


True! but that's because the legs of the chair is still connected to the ground and transmitting GRF to and from the ground lol


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2015)

zuti car said:


> if i wanted to challenge you i would ...


IMO, a challenge can be in many different format. For example, if you can hit me in the 1st 20 punches, you win that round, otherwise, you lose that round. test this for 15 rounds and whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner. Since you are testing your offense skill and I'm testing my defense skill, the challenge can be friendly and will never be out of control. If you know that I'm not going to hit you back, you are not trying to kill me with your punches.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> True! but that's because the legs of the chair is still connected to the ground and transmitting GRF to and from the ground lol


By applying your definition, any body movement can be called as Peng Jing since we all have our body connected to the ground either directly or indirectly. The Lu, Ji, and An all have feet on the ground too.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 2, 2015)

Hendrik said:


> Seriously,
> 
> Read your post number 15 in this thread. You ask for Sergio.
> Stop playing with words, Sergio is in Taiwan and i have tell you for days.
> ...


Now this is threat , will moderation do something about this ?. It is interesting , you personally are afraid to even meet people for a friendly practice but you have no problem to create confrontation between me and him put your student in a situation which can be very uncomfortable situation .You behavior is very interesting and I am surprised that people who follow you fail to see that .You  can send your student here to handle me with ease , because I really can't come easy to Canada or USA .


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 2, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> ah no, peng jing is not ground reaction force. I have never read anything from Mike Sigman but if that is what he said he is incorrect. However Chen Xiaowang is not incorrect
> 
> 
> 
> It can also be referred to as expanding energy or inflatable energy but it is not ground reaction force.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

correct


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 2, 2015)

I am having trouble accessing this site with my old computer. Don't know how to use the new one yet.
But enough of this thread for me.


----------



## Jake104 (Jun 3, 2015)

KPM said:


> Hendrik,  what I showed is  EXACTLY what you described on more than one video as the difference between the "mechanical" and the "hydraulic" models.  You clearly indicated in your videos that the difference was up close and short range with short power compared to further out with more extended punches and "long arm" power.  You've said that more than once.  That is what I showed in my video.  Is that "snake engine"?  I don't know.  I said only that it is what YOU described as the "hydraulic" model.  Look, I've been trying to help you out and support you, but you seem to be your own worse enemy when it comes to these things.  You could have easily said..."yes!  Keith has a good grasp of the hydraulic model!  But this is only the surface level.  There is more to it than can be easily seen in a video."  But you didn't.  Instead you say "what you post is not what I shared"......"you can't grasp it because your body is not develop for it."  At every turn you seem to work against yourself, and I don't think you can even see that.  It's a shame, because I truly believe there is something in what you are saying.  But it suffers from your presentation.


It's different because you are not on his level and never will be. So just give up. Jk!

Your video I found way more interesting than any video I've ever seen him post. I'm a subscriber and his videos are usually long over drawn out lectures about the same thing just packaged slightly different each time. At least you are actually doing something in your video and demonstrating some sort of applicable use to this snake head engine.

My only criticism is your boxing sucks. No offense... But I train with good boxers that don't over commit and use boxing in a tight packaged forward intent, centerline kinda way. Sort of like Wing Chun. I wish one day people will realize good fighting is good fighting regardless of style. Oh yeah and I wish for world piece too!


----------



## dlcox (Jun 3, 2015)

This thread is the epitome of the state of Yong Chun. Perhaps its time to put the discussion to bed once & for all. I propose that this whole sordid business be taken out of the realm of the theoretical and tested in the practical. Time to put up or shut up in the same manner as the Gracie's, show up and prove it under non-compliant pressure. I'm not a fan of BJJ or MMA, but they have my respect for backing up their claims with action. If you want to be taken seriously, put your 16 hour training course to the ultimate test. Otherwise its nothing more than unfounded claims and supposition. If none of you are willing to do so then shut the hell up about your claims of superiority. Feel free to send a PM, my door is always open. I have nothing to prove but am always willing to learn something new & useful. Enter with civility and it will be returned in kind, enter with hubris & malice be prepared to deal with the consequences.


----------



## Jake104 (Jun 3, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Now this is threat , will moderation do something about this ?. It is interesting , you personally are afraid to even meet people for a friendly practice but you have no problem to create confrontation between me and him put your student in a situation which can be very uncomfortable situation .You behavior is very interesting and I am surprised that people who follow you fail to see that .You  can send your student here to handle me with ease , because I really can't come easy to Canada or USA .


I'm in the US! I'd like to be "handled with ease" by ANY student of Hendricks Snake engine. I'm a really nice guy in person. I'm not a psycho. I've met people on here and they're all still alive and not in my freezer. I'm in Arizona . I travel to CA sometimes. I enjoy interaction with others. I have actually made friends with people I meet on here. For me talk is cheap. The proof is always in the puddin. So if any student of the Snake engine would like to meet up with me. I'd love too!


----------



## Jake104 (Jun 3, 2015)

dlcox said:


> This thread is the epitome of the state of Yong Chun. Perhaps its time to put the discussion to bed once & for all. I propose that this whole sordid business be taken out of the realm of the theoretical and tested in the practical. Time to put up or shut up in the same manner as the Gracie's, show up and prove it under non-compliant pressure. I'm not a fan of BJJ or MMA, but they have my respect for backing up their claims with action. If you want to be taken seriously, put your 16 hour training course to the ultimate test. Otherwise its nothing more than unfounded claims and supposition. If none of you are willing to do so then shut the hell up about your claims of superiority. Feel free to send a PM, my door is always open. I have nothing to prove but am always willing to learn something new & useful. Enter with civility and it will be returned in kind, enter with hubris & malice be prepared to deal with the consequences.


+1.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

Well I asked Sergio and he refused . I was polite as much I could , but I haven't hid my intention . He tried to sell me is book and convince in his version of history . Along the way he said bad things about my friend from HK . The conversation went well until he realized I am not buying his story , when he lost his temper and tried to insult me.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

dlcox said:


> This thread is the epitome of the state of Yong Chun. Perhaps its time to put the discussion to bed once & for all. I propose that this whole sordid business be taken out of the realm of the theoretical and tested in the practical. Time to put up or shut up in the same manner as the Gracie's, show up and prove it under non-compliant pressure. I'm not a fan of BJJ or MMA, but they have my respect for backing up their claims with action. If you want to be taken seriously, put your 16 hour training course to the ultimate test. Otherwise its nothing more than unfounded claims and supposition. If none of you are willing to do so then shut the hell up about your claims of superiority. Feel free to send a PM, my door is always open. I have nothing to prove but am always willing to learn something new & useful. Enter with civility and it will be returned in kind, enter with hubris & malice be prepared to deal with the consequences.


Be aware , some people may find this threatening and report you to the forum's moderation .


----------



## KPM (Jun 3, 2015)

Your video I found way more interesting than any video I've ever seen him post.

---Thanks Jake!

My only criticism is your boxing sucks.

---No argument there!  I never claimed to be a good boxer.  And I realize I am exaggerating the mechanics a bit to make my point.  But sometimes people just can't see the differences unless you make them as easy to see as possible!  ;-)


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 3, 2015)

dlcox said:


> If you want to be taken seriously, put your 16 hour training course to the ultimate test. Otherwise its nothing more than unfounded claims and supposition. If none of you are willing to do so then shut the hell up about your claims of superiority.



A good dose of common sense! Well said dlcox!


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 3, 2015)

zuti car said:


> Well I asked Sergio and he refused . I was polite as much I could , but I haven't hid my intention . He tried to sell me is book and convince in his version of history . Along the way he said bad things about my friend from HK . The conversation went until he realized I am not buying his story , when he lost his temper and tried to insult me. So ,that is that ,just a lot of empty talk . I am still ready to meet with him, even for a talk if not for skill comparsion, but somehow I think that will not happened .



Soooooooo......the grandmaster gatekeeper won't meet with you and feels threatened; and the guy he diverted you to won't meet either. Hmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> Please provide the link!
> 
> 
> Here are the two complete Mike Sigman DVD's that i have:
> *[EDIT: Links removed due to copyright violation - Dirty Dog]*



Thank You, but I am not going to spend 2 hours watching his videos at this point, I simply do not have the time.

Is he calling Peng Jing "*ground reaction force" *and is he impling that it is somehow using the ground? If so two hours of a video will not change my previous post


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 3, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Soooooooo......the grandmaster gatekeeper won't meet with you and feels threatened; and the guy he diverted you to won't meet either. Hmmmmmmmmm


-------------------------------------------------------------
And the youtube cash register rings


----------



## JPinAZ (Jun 3, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> I'm in the US! I'd like to be "handled with ease" by ANY student of Hendricks Snake engine. I'm a really nice guy in person. I'm not a psycho. I've met people on here and they're all still alive and not in my freezer. I'm in Arizona . I travel to CA sometimes. I enjoy interaction with others. I have actually made friends with people I meet on here. For me talk is cheap. The proof is always in the puddin. So if any student of the Snake engine would like to meet up with me. I'd love too!



Haha, yeah, that's not going to happen. I offered to meet Hendrik several times in past years - even after he said he welcomed anyone to come see for themselves. So when I took him up on the offer to see in a friendly exchange and/or demonstration, he refused flat out and even threatened to call police and then said he reported me to FBI lol (no joke!)
Probably best to just leave this poor guy alone - I don't think he's very mentally or emotionally stable TBH.


----------



## Hendrik (Jun 3, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> True! but that's because the legs of the chair is still connected to the ground and transmitting GRF to and from the ground lol



Mike is Doing a different thing compare with the force flow handling I mention.

He is using posture as main instead of direct  use of force flow path. No action reaction force is mention . No details handling in the lower four bow, no the seven bow development.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Haha, yeah, that's not going to happen. I offered to meet Hendrik several times in past years - even after he said he welcomed anyone to come see for themselves. So when I took him up on the offer to see in a friendly exchange and/or demonstration, he refused flat out and even threatened to call police and then said he reported me to FBI lol (no joke!)
> Probably best to just leave this poor guy alone - I don't think he's very mentally or emotionally stable TBH.


I was just talking to Wayne Yung and he mentioned that FBI story . I'm not that lucky to be reported to FBI by him, on the other hand , being Serbian I am probably on some kind black list in that organization so maybe there is no need for personal report so his problem is resolved


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 3, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Feel free to send a PM, my door is always open. I have nothing to prove but am always willing to learn something new & useful. Enter with civility and it will be returned in kind, enter with hubris & malice be prepared to deal with the consequences.


First off, what do any of us have to gain by coming to your door, except loosing money for travel expenses. There is a chance I might go out to new Mexico to visit Phil Romero, If I do and you are close in proximity I will make to sure knock on your door. But too Be honest I have absolutely nothing to gain by meeting you. So i might just wait until Phil visits Hendrik and coordinate  my trip at the same time as his in California, that way I can kill two birds with one stone and gain more from my trip. dlcox I extend the same offer as I did for Zuti, If you are so eager to find out what snake engine force flow is all about directly in person then spend the money for a plane ticket to visit me in Toronto, my door is open. I can do one better, How about we can film the whole thing and post it for everyone to see on this forum to judge for themselves. I await your response



dlcox said:


> Time to put up or shut up in the same manner as the Gracie's, show up and prove it under non-compliant pressure. I'm not a fan of BJJ or MMA, but they have my respect for backing up their claims with action.



The Gracies didn't go to anyone of their challengers door to challenge them, the challengers came to the door of the Gracie Academy to prove them wrong if you remember correctly. I extend the same courtesy.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> First off, what do any of us have to gain by coming to your door, except loosing money for travel expenses. There is a chance I might go out to new Mexico to visit Phil Romero, If I do and you are close in proximity I will make to sure knock on your door. But too Be honest I have absolutely nothing to gain by meeting you. So i might just wait until Phil visits Hendrik and coordinate  my trip at the same time as his in California, that way I can kill two birds with one stone and gain more from my trip. dlcox I extend the same offer as I did for Zuti, If you are so eager to find out what snake engine force flow is all about directly in person then spend the money for a plane ticket to visit me in Toronto, my door is open. I can do one better, How about we can film the whole thing and post it for everyone to see on this forum to judge for themselves. I await your response


How about you come to Tainan and film it ? Or even better , how aboout you come to Serbia when I go there next time , no need for filming nor return ticket


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 3, 2015)

zuti car said:


> How about you come to Tainan and film it ? Or even better , how aboout you come to Serbia when I go there next time , no need for filming nor return ticket


-----------------------------------------------

I think that I will have some iced tea with cold milk and let the wisdom of kung fu hunting on the net go by.


----------



## kung fu fighter (Jun 3, 2015)

zuti car said:


> How about you come to Serbia when I go there next time , no need for filming nor return ticket


No thanks! I don't feel like getting shot nor the idea of not being able to return home from a third world communist country


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> I think that I will have some iced tea with cold milk and let the wisdom of kung fu hunting on the net go by.


It is easy for you, you have the only and original, the most complete Yip Man;s wing chun . You have to understand , it is not easy for the rest of us who have inferior, incomplete arts , we often get frustrated when people who do have something we don't point that out. But you are right about one thing, non of them will ever come to meet me


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> No thanks! I don't feel like getting shot nor the idea of not being able to return home from a third world communist country


Ok , that is it than, you are afraid , but you should visit my country , it is very old and beautiful country, have something you can't find in North America , like history , culture , art , best food on the world , the most beautiful woman and the most intelligent people , unimaginable night life , the best of all , despite of all the things your country did to my people , you would still be welcomed there with open arms . You can't find such a goodhearted people anywhere else. Now , your comment saying a lot about who and what you are , and thank you for that . Looks like that snake emei whatever engine attract certain kind if personalty .


----------



## Vajramusti (Jun 3, 2015)

zuti car said:


> It is easy for you, you have the only and original, the most complete Yip Man;s wing chun . You have to understand , it is not easy for the rest of us who have inferior, incomplete arts , we often get frustrated when people who do have something we don't point that out. But you are right about one thing, non of them will ever come to meet me , they inviting me there knowing I can't go there with my passport , Really brave


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Haha- I have not offered to meet you.After all you have had some lessons from Cheung's brother in Serbia.


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Haha- I have not offered to meet you.After all you have had some lessons from Cheung's brother in Serbia.


I said them , not you , why would I want to meet you ? Yes , David is a true fighter and incredible teacher , most of all he is a good person . Actually I haven't met anyone who is capable to transmit knowledge so well as he can. Although I don't practice his style anymore , some things he taught me are still there , the way of thinking , what is important ,what to search , what to look. Really , he is a rare gem among wing chun people.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 3, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> No thanks! I don't feel like getting shot nor the idea of not being able to return home from a third world communist country



Yeah, but Serbia is a beautiful country! And their "backyard whiskey" is AWESOME!


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Yeah, but Serbia is a beautiful country! And their "backyard whiskey" is AWESOME!


It is brandy ,not whiskey and it is awesome . Now days , quince brandy and peach brandy are very popular , not so strong , but rich in taste and the most important thing, no hangover the "morning after "


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jun 3, 2015)

zuti car said:


> It is brandy ,not whiskey and it is awesome . Now days , quince brandy and peach brandy are very popular , not so strong , but rich in taste and the most important thing, no hangover the "morning after "



Actually I was thinking of the slivovitz! Yummy!


----------



## zuti car (Jun 3, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Actually I was thinking of the slivovitz! Yummy!


Still brandy , plum brandy and if it is older than a year and it was in an oak barrel you hit the jack pot (that is an expression I think).I know some things about it , my father is Enologist and my brother is , well I don;t know English term , an engineer whose specialty is brandy production


----------



## mograph (Jun 3, 2015)

KPM said:


> I posted this video on another thread, but the thread was dying and it didn't get much response.


Well, it looks as if you got a response this time!


----------



## dlcox (Jun 3, 2015)

kung fu fighter said:


> First off, what do any of us have to gain by coming to your door, except loosing money for travel expenses. There is a chance I might go out to new Mexico to visit Phil Romero, If I do and you are close in proximity I will make to sure knock on your door. But too Be honest I have absolutely nothing to gain by meeting you. So i might just wait until Phil visits Hendrik and coordinate  my trip at the same time as his in California, that way I can kill two birds with one stone and gain more from my trip. dlcox I extend the same offer as I did for Zuti, If you are so eager to find out what snake engine force flow is all about directly in person then spend the money for a plane ticket to visit me in Toronto, my door is open. I can do one better, How about we can film the whole thing and post it for everyone to see on this forum to judge for themselves. I await your response
> 
> 
> 
> The Gracies didn't go to anyone of their challengers door to challenge them, the challengers came to the door of the Gracie Academy to prove them wrong if you remember correctly. I extend the same courtesy.


Nice way to turn it around. I'm not the one plastering the internet with grandiose claims of superiority and putting everyone else down as incompetent, you people are. I'm not trying to prove or convince anyone that what I have is better, you are. Yet none of you has proved anything, just lots of talk. Talk of obscure theory, made up history, name dropping, putting people down when asked to explain or prove your method of superiority. Why should I waste my time coming to you when you cannot even present your method in a manner that shows or explains it clearly. You're the ones with something to prove, prove it or shut up. I don't care about your method I have my own so if you want me to fall in line and follow your way, come prove it to me like a real missionary. Invade my doorstep and force me to follow your ways. I'm guessing tough guy that this will never happen, because you lack the conviction. Until you Snake Charmers prove it in the same manner as BJJ, its just a lot of meaningless talk. So once again I say put up or shut up. Until then all you'll continue to convince are those that lack a real education in the art.


----------



## Jake104 (Jun 3, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Haha, yeah, that's not going to happen. I offered to meet Hendrik several times in past years - even after he said he welcomed anyone to come see for themselves. So when I took him up on the offer to see in a friendly exchange and/or demonstration, he refused flat out and even threatened to call police and then said he reported me to FBI lol (no joke!)
> Probably best to just leave this poor guy alone - I don't think he's very mentally or emotionally stable TBH.


FBI? Lol! I don't want to end up on the MA internet challenge terror list! I better back off!

I think my training INVITE was presented in a very nice, kind, warm and fuzzy way. I made sure. Haha!


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 3, 2015)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

I strongly encourage everybody involved in this thread to review the TOS which all members are required to agree to when they create an account.
Challenges are absolutely unacceptable, under any circumstances. 
More than one ban has been issued as a result of posts in this thread, and others are under discussion by the Moderation Team.

Thread locked pending staff review.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator


----------

