# Applied Wing Chun is almost karate



## TSDTexan

I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.


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## PiedmontChun

It does not look very relaxed, and while much of what was shown look like pattern type drills, they seemed to lack forward intent I'm used to seeing in WC/WT/VT. There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.

After 1:00 it didn't even look like WC anymore - guys throwing Muay Thai type kicks on heavy bags, checking kicks with the leg versus trying to move in and crash the opponent, and some serious chasing arms at 1:25.

It looks like the school teaches kickboxing and MMA as well, so maybe they are after a hybrid or eclectic approach. I wouldn't criticize anyone's training methods if that is what they want to train. Not my cup of tea though.


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## TSDTexan

PiedmontChun said:


> There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.



From an outsiders view... WC is both a concept driven art
and technique driven art. But my question is this:
*How many principles can you "lose" before its not wing chun?
Which leads to asking, "What is "the" orthodox wing chun?"
*
Because the argument over who has the "real" wing chun has never been settled. And until a baseline is codified or a universal standard that enumerates absolute minimum core tenants...is achived by some consensus...then we are shooting blind folded at a moving target.


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## KPM

It does not look very relaxed, and while much of what was shown look like pattern type drills, they seemed to lack forward intent I'm used to seeing in WC/WT/VT. There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.

---This is Duncan Leung lineage.  He was a student of Ip Man.   And you are right, most of this is pattern type drills...reaction/response drills.  So why would you expect them to have forward intent and not to disengage?  These are "back and forth" drills, that's usually how "back and forth" drills work.


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## PiedmontChun

KPM said:


> ---This is Duncan Leung lineage.  He was a student of Ip Man.   And you are right, most of this is pattern type drills...reaction/response drills.  So why would you expect them to have forward intent and not to disengage?  These are "back and forth" drills, that's usually how "back and forth" drills work.



I said _while_ _much_ of it was drills, I didn't see discernible forward pressure or intent. Obviously pattern drills you would expect it to be 1-2, reset, repeat. But then as it progressed and showed other students and more dynamic drills.....I didn't see it there either. I don't expect to see blind-folded chi-sau on display  but there was nothing there showing what I see as a hallmark of good Wing Chun. And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.


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## PiedmontChun

TSDTexan said:


> From an outsiders view... WC is both a concept driven art
> and technique driven art. But my question is this:
> *How many principles can you "lose" before its not wing chun?
> Which leads to asking, "What is "the" orthodox wing chun?"
> *
> Because the argument over who has the "real" wing chun has never been settled. And until a baseline is codified or a universal standard that enumerates absolute minimum core tenants...is achived by some consensus...then we are shooting blind folded at a moving target.



That question is above my pay grade. However, I will say that many (not even referring to the school or lineage in this video) people who cross train different arts use visibly recognizable movements from WC and say they are "doing wing chun". It just doesn't work that way.


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## Xue Sheng

Well a little Webfu got this, but as to what it really means, I can't tell you apparently this is the guy who is the "Applied Wing Chun Sifu"

Henry Araneda trained with SiFu Duncan Leung

•SiFu Henry is a founding member of the International Applied Wing Chun Federation.
•Certified Instructor under The China Foshan Martial Arts Association.
•Certified Instructor under The International Martial Arts Alliance.
•Graduated In Sports Methodology and Planning for Martial Arts Competitions, course provided by Shorin Ryu Karate Do Chilean Association.
•Qualified Martial Arts Instructor certificate issued by Colonel A. Benavente.

I leave the rest to the Wing Chun folks of MT


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## wckf92

PiedmontChun said:


> And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.
> 
> After 1:00 it didn't even look like WC anymore - guys throwing Muay Thai type kicks on heavy bags, checking kicks with the leg versus trying to move in and crash the opponent



???
To assume otherwise is to assume you are always at red alert and psychic and live in a perfect world where you (the WC guy) never train for the unexpected.


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## TSDTexan

PiedmontChun said:


> I said _while_ _much_ of it was drills, I didn't see discernible forward pressure or intent. Obviously pattern drills you would expect it to be 1-2, reset, repeat. But then as it progressed and showed other students and more dynamic drills.....I didn't see it there either. I don't expect to see blind-folded chi-sau on display  but there was nothing there showing what I see as a hallmark of good Wing Chun. And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.



I have a number of WC books that show pictures leg checking in response to kicks.


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## TSDTexan

PiedmontChun said:


> And leg-checking a kick like a kickboxer? That seems more fitting for a competition and trading strikes with an opponent.



As for legchecking like a kickboxer.... I don't have the pictures hand yet but...


CLOSE RANGE COMBAT Wing Chun
Explosive Self-Defense Techniques
Volume 2
Randy Williams
UNIQUE PUBLICATIONS Burbank, California

I would refer you to pages 100 & 101...


_Fook Family (Wing Chun) Leg Defense
Photo #63—Fook Sau/Fook Sut.



 


Based on the Fook Sau principle, Fook family leg defenses use a downward motion of the leg to block, press or trap the opponent’s leg or, under unusual circumstances, the arm.

Fook Gyeuk—The Fook Gyeuk motion uses the inner shin to stop an oncoming Round Kick or other upward/inward-angled kick with its own downward/inward action. It is normally used at mid-range and is therefore considered a Chum Kiu-level technique.

At times, the knee itself may be used in place of the inner shin as in figure. 180C. When this occurs, the resulting motion is known as Fook Sut, which means “Bridging Knee.”
Page 100

Wing Chun Leg Defense

Fig. 180—Application of Fook Gyeuk and Fook Sut. In photos A and B, Fighter #2’s attempted Round Kick and Reverse Round Kick are stopped by #1’s downward/ forward shin deflection (Fook Gyeuk). When the knee is used rather than the shin as in photo C, the resulting motion is known as Fook Sut.
(Pictures of leg checking a kick here)
180A B C


Both Fook Gyeuk and Fook Sut are extremely quick, economical defenses against angular leg attack. They are most commonly used to block any Roundhouse or Crescent Kick aimed below chest level.

After blocking, both Fook family leg defenses leave the blocker in excellent position for counterattack, which is usually accomplished by smoothly continuing the motion of the leg by kicking out the attacker’s base leg using the foot of the blocking leg without putting the foot down between motions.

Kicking in this manner is known as Moh Ying Gyeuk (“Shadowless” or “Invisible” Kicking _{in white crane it is called a ghost kick}_) because it is so fast and efficient it seems to be invisible to the opponent until he has been hit. The Moh Ying Gyeuk principle was examined more closely in Volume I of this series.

When executing Fook Gyeuk or Fook Sut, sharply bend the blocking leg with its knee higher than the foot. The shin and calf muscles are readied for contact by bending the instep fully downward until the toes point in the opposite direction from the knee.

The base foot, body structure and Angle of Facing should be exactly the same as that of the Side Kick and the body should be upright to enable the hands to be used simulta- neously and/or immediately after the block in a follow-up motion.

Fook Sut can at times be laid on top of an arm trapped on the low- line in an action that frees the formerly trapping hand to strike or block.

On occasion, it can even be used to block a low punch, as might occur if the opponent attempted a wide “bolo”-type uppercut punch with the rear left hand when the Wing Chun man is in a right leading Forward Stance.

Seeing the punch originating from the extreme low-line, the Wing Chun fighter might opt to use his right Fook Sut to stop it while he simultaneously prepares the return-fire.
Page 101_


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## Jake104

PiedmontChun said:


> It does not look very relaxed, and while much of what was shown look like pattern type drills, they seemed to lack forward intent I'm used to seeing in WC/WT/VT. There was some disengaging after intercepting an attack rather than pursuing. That tells me that there might be WC techniques present, but potentially not the under lying principles.
> 
> After 1:00 it didn't even look like WC anymore - guys throwing Muay Thai type kicks on heavy bags, checking kicks with the leg versus trying to move in and crash the opponent, and some serious chasing arms at 1:25.
> 
> It looks like the school teaches kickboxing and MMA as well, so maybe they are after a hybrid or eclectic approach. I wouldn't criticize anyone's training methods if that is what they want to train. Not my cup of tea though.


I think I saw forward intent whenever they moved forward.


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## Jake104

TSDTexan said:


> From an outsiders view... WC is both a concept driven art
> and technique driven art. But my question is this:
> *How many principles can you "lose" before its not wing chun?
> Which leads to asking, "What is "the" orthodox wing chun?"
> *
> Because the argument over who has the "real" wing chun has never been settled. And until a baseline is codified or a universal standard that enumerates absolute minimum core tenants...is achived by some consensus...then we are shooting blind folded at a moving target.


I say none. You must maintain all WC core principles for it to remain WC. It's tricky though, because we can't even agree on what those principles are, or more specifically what forward intent is ? I know what they are and I'm only a student. Problem is, there are Sifu's who don't, and who are teaching and posting videos. So that's where part of the problem lies.

In terms of what WC should look like. It depends on who I'm fighting and what I get. Hopefully, I train realistically and when I fight my WC principles stay in tack. Hopefully, in my journey, I have transitioned from technique and drills into the more useful underlying concepts and ideas of what WC really  is? Hopefully!


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## TSDTexan

Jake104 said:


> I say none. You must maintain all WC core principles for it to remain WC. It's tricky though, because we can't even agree on what those principles are, or more specifically what forward intent is ? I know what they are and I'm only a student. Problem is, there are Sifu's who don't, and who are teaching and posting videos. So that's where part of the problem lies.
> 
> In terms of what WC should look like. It depends on who I'm fighting and what I get. Hopefully, I train realistically and when I fight my WC principles stay in tack. Hopefully, in my journey, I have transitioned from technique and drills into the more useful underlying concepts and ideas of what WC really  is? Hopefully!



Could it be there is a spectrum?

And what do you call something that is 90% wing chun and 10% the opposite principles, or ignores 10%?

How about 70/30%?

What do you call something that is 50% in keeping with the tenants & principles?

This is a tricky place... GM John Pelegrini was at when he overhauled Hopkido to make "Combat Hopkido". If he called it something else... his critics would say "he stole it from Hopkido without crediting the source." But if he called it Hopkido,  critics from within the existing Hopkido groups would say "oh thats not real Hopkido... its missing this, and this and it is missing that other thing too... and what? He put in JKD trapping into his art? That is definitely not Hopkido.


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## Jake104

TSDTexan said:


> Could it be there is a spectrum?
> 
> And what do you call something that is 90% wing chun and 10% the opposite principles, or ignores 10%?
> 
> How about 70/30%?
> 
> What do you call something 50% in keeping with the tenents principles


Are we talking techniques? If we are talking principles? Then let's use forward intent as an example. I just can't let this one go.

So if ones understanding of forward intent is only going forward. There easily could be a misconception of breaking a rule or concept by retreating. So the lack of truly understanding what a concept or principe is could lead to a 'spectrum'? So if forward intent has multiple layers and is always there. It could be perceived that the said principle is not there to some who can't see past the first layer?

Same goes with centerline or any of the other core WC principles. If center line is only the quickest distance between a and b or is never to be crossed. Then going around center may not be perceived as WC? Since WC uses the most direct route in order to achieve it's goal of hitting? What if hitting isn't available? What if centerline is occupied? Should we force our way into that space? Wouldn't that be breaking WC's rule of not meeting force with force?

You see where I'm going?  If you can only take things at face value then you get an art that lacks this or that. If you can see beyond the techniques, then the art becomes complete. Simple? He'll no! It's taken me over 20 years and the possibilities still trip me out.


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## TSDTexan

Jake104 said:


> Are we talking techniques? If we are talking principles? Then let's use forward intent as an example. I just can't let this one go.
> 
> So if ones understanding of forward intent is only going forward. There easily could be a misconception of breaking a rule or concept by retreating. So the lack of truly understanding what a concept or principe is could lead to a 'spectrum'? So if forward intent has multiple layers and is always there. It could be perceived that the said principle is not there to some who can't see past the first layer?
> 
> Same goes with centerline or any of the other core WC principles. If center line is only the quickest distance between a and b or is never to be crossed. Then going around center may not be perceived as WC? Since WC uses the most direct route in order to achieve it's goal of hitting? What if hitting isn't available? What if centerline is occupied? Should we force our way into that space? Wouldn't that be breaking WC's rule of not meeting force with force?
> 
> You see where I'm going?  If you can only take things at face value then you get an art that lacks this or that. If you can see beyond the techniques, then the art becomes complete. Simple? He'll no! It's taken me over 20 years and the possibilities still trip me out.



Ya. So without a framework of wc tenants it cannot be WC.
But certain rules are made to be bent In a case by case situational basis. The expert practioner can on the fly make a decision to employ techniques that appear not to be WC but operate in harmony with the core tenants. While not cannonical techs... they are ad hoc WC.



If it makes you sacrifice speed and complicates the KISS rule for a chance to hit harder its not WC. Ie  Foreman's Roundhouse Haymaker..

But an agressor who just got peppersprayed and is fighting blind... is asking for a kick to the head, right after a solid solar plexus strike.
(He is going to be vision impaired guarding low, and unable to breath well.)

If it require sequence of block and then strike...
And so on.

So what about an art consisting only of known cannon techniques drawn only from WC but with different power generation isnt WC is it?

Or Hard Blocks (force with force)... or even better "no blocks, no deflections".... simply eating some punches to trade the better blows, but attacking in the undefended gate openned by the oppenents attack?


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## Jake104

TSDTexan said:


> This is a tricky place... GM John Pelegrini was at when he overhauled Hopkido to make "Combat Hopkido". If he called it something else... his critics would say "he stole it from Hopkido without crediting the source." But if he called it Hopkido, critics from within the existing Hopkido groups would say "oh thats not real Hopkido... its missing this, and this and it is missing that other thing too... and what?


It is tricky. My current teacher tells me he's teaching me combat WC. We still do what everybody else does. We just make it combative. What might that mean you ask? We make it work lol! No, really it's just stripping it down. He describes it like sharpening a blade. You take material off to sharpen and to get the tip smaller. Something like that. I probably butchered that one sorry lol.

What it means is more important. It's about making our movements smaller and smaller and more direct.


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## Jake104

So in order to sharpen a blade you need bare stock. Eventually that stock becomes smaller as it get sharpened over and over again. The metal stock will not get bigger as it is sharpened


So you could say the first layer of WC (techniques and drills) are like a forged dull knife stock or blank. We all get handed that dull stock as we go through the system. As we start to pull back layers that dull stock starts to hold and edge and becomes smaller as it sharpens.

So by getting stuck in technique and drills your knife will always be dull. Even if you master the techniques the result will stay the same.

I think most have it backwards and try and ad material as they progress.


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## Transk53

TSDTexan said:


> I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.



Interesting. Thanks for posting.


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## yak sao

Jake104 said:


> So in order to sharpen a blade you need bare stock. Eventually that stock becomes smaller as it get sharpened over and over again. The metal stock will not get bigger as it is sharpened
> 
> 
> So you could say the first layer of WC (techniques and drills) are like a forged dull knife stock or blank. We all get handed that dull stock as we go through the system. As we start to pull back layers that dull stock starts to hold and edge and becomes smaller as it sharpens.
> 
> So by getting stuck in technique and drills your knife will always be dull. Even if you master the techniques the result will stay the same.
> 
> I think most have it backwards and try and ad material as they progress.



Yes! Yes! A hundred times Yes!
The goal of the WC man should be to simplify not tack on a bunch of crap.
My si-fu said to "_strive to get better and better at less and less"_


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## Danny T

Looks like wing chun people working on using their skills with some pressure. Needs refining but they are working on it which is what we should be doing rather than criticizing. 
We do intercept kicks with legs same a same as arms. Forward intent doesn't mean the body is always going forward.

"...combat wc." ???
What is that vs wing chun? I say if you aren't doing some training as shown in the video you aren't seriously training your wing chun and your skills will always be lacking.


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## PiedmontChun

I realize, and will admit, that I might have been hasty in my criticism (see above). It is a short clip, and its not fair to make such generalized opinions on such a snippet, for sure.
As far as my take on leg checking a round kick, I would say that the execution of it as briefly shown in the video, with a visible outward turning of the stance to throw the leg out and intercept the kick, simply makes it appear to my eyes like it was extracted from Muay Thai rather than an application of the WC front kick or Chum Kiu knee. Some other kickboxing elements in that video seemed to imply maybe there was some WC / kickboxing hybrid going on so maybe I can be forgiven if I am way off base.
When dealing with a round kick, I was taught to close the distance when possible and take away the range where the opponents has power, bridging the kick with Gan or Gwat. I was also taught to use what is essentially a front kick technique by raising the knee to deflect an incoming kick and then propel forward into an opponent's stance, but as more of a last resort if it is too late to step in.


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## Danny T

Well I learned both to intercept the roundhouse kick with the lower leg but not in the same manner as a thai leg check (shin to shin) that would be meeting force against force. But the reality of fighting is that it happens. As for kicking we do have roundhouse type kicking. Closing the distance is what we want to do but again in reality it simply doesn't happen like we want so that has to be dealt with as well. We train and practice for what we want to do but we also have to deal with what actually happens vs what should happen.


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## TSDTexan

Danny T said:


> Well I learned both to intercept the roundhouse kick with the lower leg but not in the same manner as a thai leg check (shin to shin) that would be meeting force against force. But the reality of fighting is that it happens. As for kicking we do have roundhouse type kicking. Closing the distance is what we want to do but again in reality it simply doesn't happen like we want so that has to be dealt with as well. We train and practice for what we want to do but we also have to deal with what actually happens vs what should happen.



Practice for the ideal and the worse case scenario.
Plan B is a settlement of an imperfect plan A.
I would venture to say letting a shin (baseball bat) strike the sciatic nerve is an excercise in losing mobility at best, or an opportunity to find yourself puking on the ground or with a broken femor at worst.
The Okinawan Cut kick, or Muay Thai cut kick is an excellent offensive weapon.

It should be in every martial art. Or in everymartial artist's tool set if one has flanked the opponent. It should also be trained by all artists to have a reliable counter against it.

If this Applied WC uses the Thai counter.. shin on shin...
I am proud of them for evolving WC to accept a valid exception to the "dont counter force with force" tenant.
The best defense is evading the shot, but it should be acknowledged for the serious threat that it is.
Soft deflection is more keeping with WC.

But in a real scenario this is a perfect opportunity to kick the supporting leg, and compromise the root structure of the kicker. A fast push kick could easily stop it.

Followed with swarming chain fists if the guy falls back into a wall, fence... etc

It's low enough that catching it isn't a threat.
And most artists and fighters are oblivious to it.
Kimbo Slice lost a ufc bout because of it.

Of course even if the femor does not break... the shin will hammer the nerve against the bone as if were on a blacksmith's anvil.


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## Danny T

TSDTexan said:


> Practice for the ideal and the worse case scenario.
> Plan B is a settlement of an imperfect plan A.
> I would venture to say letting a shin (baseball bat) strike the sciatic nerve is an excercise in losing mobility at best, or an opportunity to find yourself puking on the ground or with a broken femor at worst.
> The Okinawan Cut kick, or Muay Thai cut kick is an excellent offensive weapon.
> 
> It should be in every martial art. Or in everymartial artist's tool set if one has flanked the opponent. It should also be trained by all artists to have a reliable counter against it.
> 
> If this Applied WC uses the Thai counter.. shin on shin...
> I am proud of them for evolving WC to accept a valid exception to the "dont counter force with force" tenant.
> The best defense is evading the shot, but it should be acknowledged for the serious threat that it is.
> Soft deflection is more keeping with WC.
> 
> But in a real scenario this is a perfect opportunity to kick the supporting leg, and compromise the root structure of the kicker. A fast push kick could easily stop it.
> 
> Followed with swarming chain fists if the guy falls back into a wall, fence... etc
> 
> It's low enough that catching it isn't a threat.
> And most artists and fighters are oblivious to it.
> Kimbo Slice lost a ufc bout because of it.
> 
> Of course even if the femor does not break... the shin will hammer the nerve against the bone as if were on a blacksmith's anvil.
> View attachment 19571


...and why proper tempering is also a very important aspect of training.
As a Muay Thai practitioner I am well aware of the using the shin for leg checks and the tempering it takes for leg and body kicks.


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## Jake104

Danny T said:


> "...combat wc." ???
> What is that vs wing chun? I say if you aren't doing some training as shown in the video you aren't seriously training your wing chun and your skills will always be lacking.


We wear commando outfits with combat boots and berets. Jk. I wish!


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## Danny T

Jake104 said:


> We wear commando outfits with combat boots and berets. Jk. I wish!


We wear Black pants and carry knives. Can we do combat wc?


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## TSDTexan

Danny T said:


> We wear Black pants and carry knives. Can we do combat wc?


....waaaaaaaiiiiiiiitttttt!!!!!!!
We have black pants in our "b. uniform" which are worn out of doors with footgear....
So can we do combat karate?


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## Jake104

Danny T said:


> We wear Black pants and carry knives. Can we do combat wc?


Yes, since you asked nicely.


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## Jake104

TSDTexan said:


> ....waaaaaaaiiiiiiiitttttt!!!!!!!
> We have black pants in our "b. uniform" which are worn out of doors with footgear....
> So can we do combat karate?


Yes you can too. Everybody is welcome. All traditional Martial arts can be combative (I think?). Just train realistically. Clothing, knives and face painting is all optional.


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## Danny T

Jake104 said:


> Yes, since you asked nicely.





Jake104 said:


> Yes you can too. Everybody is welcome. All traditional Martial arts can be combative (I think?). Just train realistically. Clothing, knives and face painting is all optional.


Wow..., Thank You So Much..., Am So Excited...I'm not going to be able to contain myself!!!


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## TSDTexan

Danny T said:


> Wow..., Thank You So Much..., Am So Excited...I'm not going to be able to contain myself!!!


I think I peed my shorts with excitement.
Wer'e gonna be ninja rocks stars!!!!

Going to shoot an email to Master Ken, and tell him his Ameridote is old news. He needs black pants and an ugprade in the name.

"Combat Ameri-do-te"


Note to self.. need to make a list of adjectived to slap on a name.

First we start with the translation of Taichi
supreme ultimate fist..
Already has black pants... check.

Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist
Realistic training consists of dringing tea. And pushing hands. And Fast forms... not the slow rendition commonly seen.

Needs monkey. . . No.. Combat Monkey kung fu.


*Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing. 

Includes special patch: "The Master Boss, Sho Nuff"
Free with order. Please select VHS, or DVD when placing your order. First 10 orders recieve limited edition "I'm Stronger than over 9000 Sayains in God Mode" TShirt. Have your credit card ready when placing your order for Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing. *


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## Jake104

Danny T said:


> Wow..., Thank You So Much..., Am So Excited...I'm not going to be able to contain myself!!!


Get a hold of yourself man! Just Breathe! In through your nose out through mouth. Better now?


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## Jake104

TSDTexan said:


> I think I peed my shorts with excitement.
> Wer'e gonna be ninja rocks stars!!!!
> 
> Going to shoot an email to Master Ken, and tell him his Ameridote is old news. He needs black pants and an ugprade in the name.
> 
> "Combat Ameri-do-te"
> 
> 
> Note to self.. need to make a list of adjectived to slap on a name.
> 
> First we start with the translation of Taichi
> supreme ultimate fist..
> Already has black pants... check.
> 
> Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist
> Realistic training consists of dringing tea. And pushing hands. And Fast forms... not the slow rendition commonly seen.
> 
> Needs monkey. . . No.. Combat Monkey kung fu.
> 
> 
> *Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing.
> 
> Includes special patch: "The Master Boss, Sho Nuff"
> Free with order. Please select VHS, or DVD when placing your order. First 10 orders recieve limited edition "I'm Stronger than over 9000 Sayains in God Mode" TShirt. Have your credit card ready when placing your order for Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing. *


So am I being clowned by you two? Kind of seems like it now? Oh well, I'm a good sport. Not a bi. Tch, but I'am a good sport. Laughs on me this time fellas.


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## TSDTexan

Jake104 said:


> So am I being clowned by you two? Kind of seems like it now? Oh well, I'm a good sport. Not a bi. Tch, but I'am a good sport. Laughs on me this time fellas.


It is good to not take ourselves too seriously.


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## Jake104

Don't worry I took my meds. I'm the first one to clown around on here or use self deprecating humor.

I do take what I train seriously though. If the original question by Danny was serious of what combat WC is, or why my teacher calls it that? It's in my original post. It's the opposite of what fantasy fu is. I think he might of been asking what makes what we do so combative? Nothing.... It's what we don't do that makes it combative. All WC should be combative ( since WC isn't a sport based art) but most fail miserably.  Most training methods are comical at best in terms of reality.  One thing I don't do on here is bash other lineages. Specifically that is. Since my last sentence is kinda bashing WC in general.


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## TSDTexan

Jake104 said:


> Don't worry I took my meds. I'm the first one to clown around on here or use self deprecating humor.
> 
> I do take what I train seriously though. If the original question by Danny was serious of what combat WC is, or why my teacher calls it that? It's in my original post. It's the opposite of what fantasy fu is. I think he might of been asking what makes what we do so combative? Nothing.... It's what we don't do that makes it combative. All WC should be combative ( since WC isn't a sport based art) but most fail miserably.  Most training methods are comical at best in terms of reality.  One thing I don't do on here is bash other lineages. Specifically that is. Since my last sentence is kinda bashing WC in general.



One thing that had made WC weak... at least American WC... is a lack of challenge matches. These were very common in Hong Kong and Taiwan. Real fights validated trainging methods. One of Ip Mans better students was critiqued harshly by Ip Man. So the guy threw down a challenge,  Ip Man beat him fiercely.  The guy humbly begged to be accepted as Ip Mans student. This guy is fairly important in VT lineage.

We dont see actual fighting as quality control. But it is and historically always was in WC. The fact that wing chun kicked so much Azss, was that it was a pretty young CMA and had to work. 

Pressure testing wasn't done on mats.
It was done on the streets and alleys.

Losing a challenge meant losing your students. Winning,  well that leads to more challenges, and  potentially more students.

Most teachers taught to family, coworkers and close friends if they wanted to avoid Challenge fights.

Bad methods creep in, and then get transferred to the next generation.


"Oh...I heard you won that fight against so and so.... in fact your kung fu is quite good... I am here to try it"
It wasnt just in the movies... but an honored tradition in the CMAs


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

TSDTexan said:


> a lack of challenge matches.


You should not wait for others to challenge you, if you truly want to test your skill against other styles, you should test your skill in tournaments.


----------



## TSDTexan

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You should not wait for others to challenge you, if you truly want to test your skill against other styles, you should test your skill in tournaments.



Mortal Combat!
*Gonnnggggg*
Test your might, fight!
*Gonnnngggg*

Finish Him!.....
Oh... there was nothing original about the movie Mortal Combat.





Yeah... my point still remains tho, brother Wong.
Americans have weaker WC due to a lack of challenge matches... aka real fighting.

I would love to see a K1 type fighting franchise for WC peope to mix it with Kyokushin-kai guys.
I wonder how true to traditional WC they would remain in thw ring.


----------



## Danny T

Jake104 said:


> Don't worry I took my meds. I'm the first one to clown around on here or use self deprecating humor.
> 
> I do take what I train seriously though. If the original question by Danny was serious of what combat WC is, or why my teacher calls it that? It's in my original post. It's the opposite of what fantasy fu is. I think he might of been asking what makes what we do so combative? Nothing.... It's what we don't do that makes it combative. All WC should be combative ( since WC isn't a sport based art) but most fail miserably.  Most training methods are comical at best in terms of reality.  One thing I don't do on here is bash other lineages. Specifically that is. Since my last sentence is kinda bashing WC in general.


I like to have fun. Sometimes at my expense and other times at someone else's.

As to: "...what makes what we do so combative?"
To me wing chun is a combative system. It is about using one's body in a fight situation and if your training and practice doesn't have a combative feel then you aren't training wing chun. You may be training some wing chun movements and actions but it isn't wing chun the martial training system. Just as some train aerobic/fitness kickboxing but that doesn't mean one is training in a kickboxing martial art. 
Hence my question 
_"...combat wc." ??? What is that vs wing chun?"
_and remark:
_"I say if you aren't doing some training as shown in the video you aren't seriously training your wing chun and your skills will always be lacking."_
To call your wing chun 'combat wc' is a redundant statement.


----------



## Phobius

Danny T said:


> To call your wing chun 'combat wc' is a redundant statement.



I think the point was that his Wing Chun is named 'Combat WC' and is done so simply to show respect to its root while still focusing more on sharpening a few of the techniques rather than being a jack-of-all-techniques. It could just as simply be named 'ABC guide to a good combat experience' but such a name would just get someone to complain that it is too similar to WC.

It is WC, just a bit of different focus from what I hear. Problem is that if techniques are removed in order to sharpen others, the next generation might not know the techniques exist and are unable to sharpen what would work best for them but rather enforce usage of other techniques. How is this mitigated in 'Combat WC', a question of pure curiousity.

See nothing wrong in sharpening, it is one of those words my sifu mentions all the time. It is the way we study as well but perhaps slightly less sharpening as we dont leave techniques out but rather validate their use to ourself before moving on.


----------



## wckf92

yak sao said:


> to "_strive to get better and better at less and less"_



Nice! Love it.


----------



## Argus

TSDTexan said:


> I think I peed my shorts with excitement.
> Wer'e gonna be ninja rocks stars!!!!
> 
> Going to shoot an email to Master Ken, and tell him his Ameridote is old news. He needs black pants and an ugprade in the name.
> 
> "Combat Ameri-do-te"
> 
> 
> Note to self.. need to make a list of adjectived to slap on a name.
> 
> First we start with the translation of Taichi
> supreme ultimate fist..
> Already has black pants... check.
> 
> Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist
> Realistic training consists of dringing tea. And pushing hands. And Fast forms... not the slow rendition commonly seen.
> 
> Needs monkey. . . No.. Combat Monkey kung fu.
> 
> 
> *Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing.
> 
> Includes special patch: "The Master Boss, Sho Nuff"
> Free with order. Please select VHS, or DVD when placing your order. First 10 orders recieve limited edition "I'm Stronger than over 9000 Sayains in God Mode" TShirt. Have your credit card ready when placing your order for Tactical Combatives Supreme Ultimate Fist, Now, with Combat Monkey Boxing. *



Will Tactical Combative Supreme Ultimate Fist seminars include bullet-proof chi-gong practice?
Plate carriers are cool and all, but I'd like a light-weight option for summer-month operations!


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.


\
This isn't wing chun at all.  This is boxing / kickboxing training in the guise of wing chun....
\
It's no wonder the debate about the efficacy of TMA, and especially the Roe Rogan whipping boy of kung fu goes on.
\
Again, selling a commercial product to student's who have no idea was TMA principles are.
\
EDIT: ditto to PiedmontChun....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Jake: I took out most of your post, which dealt with tactical principles.  That's legit but on a layer on the overall principles of WC.





Jake104 said:


> Are we talking techniques? If we are talking principles? Then let's use forward intent as an example. I just can't let this one go.


\
Posters can put up all the physical demo's of WC they want.   WC transcends the physical way more than does the traditional karates... So far not a one has come close to defining the TMA of WC.
\
Wing Chun wannabees, good luck with that....


----------



## TSDTexan

Argus said:


> Will Tactical Combative Supreme Ultimate Fist seminars include bullet-proof chi-gong practice?
> Plate carriers are cool and all, but I'd like a light-weight option for summer-month operations!


Covered under iron shirt training.


----------



## wckf92

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> This isn't wing chun at all.  This is boxing / kickboxing training in the guise of wing chun....



Noted. But I disagree.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Danny T said:


> Looks like wing chun people working on using their skills with some pressure. Needs refining but they are working on it which is what we should be doing rather than criticizing.


\
Yeah, well once one learns & trains real TMA, then one can criticize, competently.
\
_*Pressure testing emphasis does not produce good TMA of any ilk.*_  Pressure testing is more in line with sport training theory.  _What produces good TMA is practice to the standards of TMA principles.  This is even more imperative with a highly sophisticated martial art like WC._


Danny T said:


> We do intercept kicks with legs same a same as arms. Forward intent doesn't mean the body is always going forward.


\
I would agree with the second sentence.  Still, the demo vid begs the question.

"...combat wc." ???


Danny T said:


> What is that vs wing chun? I say if you aren't doing some training as shown in the video you aren't seriously training your wing chun and your skills will always be lacking.


\
This statement about WC is horse crap.  This is a big selling, commercial marketing point to guys (& gals) who want to learn they can handle pressure.  It doesn't speak to the vast majority of the TMA curriculum and what it does or how it does what it does.
\
We added 'pressure' to the equation in my Back fist board break fail video.  Fail, fail, fail, fail. Shake it out Danny T.  Shake it out.  Moreover, we don't see Laszlo fail in his board break video.  He's hardly Mr. rough, tough pressure fighter.... Ha Ha. Ha.


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> Jake: I took out most of your post, which dealt with tactical principles.  That's legit but on a layer on the overall principles of WC.
> \
> Posters can put up all the physical demo's of WC they want.   WC transcends the physical way more than does the traditional karates... So far not a one has come close to defining the TMA of WC.
> \
> Wing Chun wannabees, good luck with that....



9 or so main branches.
All but 1 have a minimum of 6 common forms in their syllabus. It is conceptual, and phisical. Its more sophisticated then the type of karate as personified the export to Japan (what I call Class B), but the older root okinaiwan Te(s) could easily be just as sophisticated.

As they are rooted in the same roots the WC arose from.
The Chunfa/Kenpo arts that birthed WC are in pangainoon, and in the Chinese root of Gojo, and Uechi-ryu.

The sophistication is lost in translation.
The Why of the techniques was not as forthcoming by the Okinaiwan Masters in Japan as was the How.
OMAs still very much concern their students with the Why and the meaning of anything being taught.

It is not acceptable just to mimic perfectly the technique being shown in the OMA dojos.

And I am not alone in that assessment. JESSE rants about in in his Jma/Oma karate article.

Hench the proliferation of techniques, and changing of stances and technical applications.

The principles were absent in Japanese karate.
The main reason Funkoshi didnt want sparing is he would have to explain how it came out of the Katas... that he was re engineering.

The reason freesparing looks different from kata is the karateka has no understanding of how to employ the movement of the kata in a fight.
He must freestyle from techniques selection.

Choki hate the reforms... and taught one kata. And how to actually use it in a street fight or a freekumite.


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> Noted. But I disagree.


\
Well, there's a TKD whole class Including black-belts & 2 Black-uniformed "TKD Master's' who disagree with me too.  YOu know, in myBback fist board break fail YT video.
\
Shake it out wckf92, shake it out....
\
EDIT: Replace "pressure test" with "shake it out," & vice versa....


----------



## ShotoNoob

This is some interesting perspective.


TSDTexan said:


> 9 or so main branches.
> All but 1 have a minimum of 6 common forms in their syllabus. It is conceptual, and phisical. Its more sophisticated then karate as the export to Japan (what I call Class B), but the older root okinaiwan Te(s) could easily be just as sophisticated.


\
Okinawan karate can be very sophisticated.... Approach bona fide wing chun;? IMO, never come close.



TSDTexan said:


> The Why of the techniques was not as forthcoming by the Okinaiwan Masters in Japan as was the How.


\
Agreed.  Lead to the 'watering down' of Japanese karateka training & capability.  Still, many Japanese karateka have still trained true to TMA principles...



TSDTexan said:


> Hench the proliferation of techniques, and changing of stances and technical applications.


\
Agreed.  Yet the underlying principles are what counts....  No better lesson on this than Five-animal kung fu.



TSDTexan said:


> The principles were absent in Japanese karate.


\
False.  Gichin Funakoshi knows more than you do...


TSDTexan said:


> The main reason Funkoshi didnt want sparing is he would have to explain how it came out of the Katas... that he was re engineering.


\
No, this training method advocated by Funakoshi reaches back through Okinawan karate history and even much further back to China.  Funakoshi did engage in some re-engineering, as did other 20th Century Okinawan karate masters.  This purpose has been posted here @ MT and a zillion other places, in books, etc.



TSDTexan said:


> The reason freesparing looks different from kata is the karateka has no understanding of how to employ the movement of the kata in a fight.
> He must freestyle from techniques selection


\
Horse crap by TMA standards.  But true of Monkey see, monkey-do pseudo karateka...



TSDTexan said:


> Choki hate the reforms... and taught one kata. And how to actually use it in a street fight or a freekumite.


\
Not really up on the guy... a legend according to history I've read.
\
EDIT: I just visited a TSD dojang {sp?} in my area.  The instructor demonstrated to intermediate class, applications of "bunkai" in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan {sp?}.  Same idea, they have 10 kata {hyung?} in the black-belt curriculum (I think), versus one.


----------



## wckf92

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Well, there's a TKD whole class Including black-belts & 2 Black-uniformed "TKD Master's' who disagree with me too.  YOu know, in myBback fist board break fail YT video.
> \
> Shake it out wckf92, shake it out....
> \
> EDIT: Replace "pressure test" with "shake it out," & vice versa....



I've no idea what you are trying to say shotonoob.(?). I think you obviously have issues with that applied wing chun video. Are you trying to say that Duncan Leung doesn't know or practice wing chun?


----------



## ShotoNoob

Here's YOur Typical WC Instructor Rogan would love to spar with...  Another American Wing Chun Expert on YT who has figured out how all the Chinese Master's screwed up.... AGAIN!



\
FINALLY, THIS WC INSTRUCTOR, HAS COME UP WITH "REAL" WC TO BEAT BOXING....  WHAT A RELIEF.... GET THE GUY A PLANE TICKET TO CHINA SO HE CAN STRAIGHTEN THE WC FOREFATHERS OUT, AT LONG LAST...
\
1. For the record, there is, in of itself,  nothing wrong with sparring with some one from a different style, pressure testing, etc.  But it's just that a test.  It doesn't prove any thing about understanding WC.  The boxer opponent claims that WC sparring against WC using static technique isn't realistic.  In fact, that is how one precisely learns and hones the mental discipline to defeat the boxer with all that boxer "stuff" he can do....  The WC artist is learning principles, not parroting form like the boxer.... bob, stick, weave, jab... I take those guys apart.... with KIME (like Laszlo does the boards).

2. TIME. 2:07.  WC stylist claims that "90%" of WC (he sees) can't close on the boxer (or alternatively handle the boxer from boxing distance).  KEY WORDS: "he sees."  Yeah, the whole truth is there is a lot of martial art practitioners who train TMA (like Joe Rogan) yet can't do TMA.
\
3. TIME 2:28. To prove his point, WC stylist runs into the boxer with a "static" Wing Chun straight punch and gets clocked by a right cross counter by Mr. Boxer.  Earlier, the boxer guy faults WC for being static.  Funny how that worked out so well.... EDIT: Actually Shotokan kumite , which so many pan as "watered down," emphasizes just how to put off such a gambit.  IN JKA kumite we see it successfully done all the time...  it's principles, not mimicking a physical form...
\
Since I just visited a TSD school, I'll post a TSD vid showing how this WC stylist approach is all TMA wet.  For starters, stop "learning some techniques, some stuff;" then "playing" around with your "Great" knowledge...


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> I've no idea what you are trying to say shotonoob.(?). I think you obviously have issues with that applied wing chun video. Are you trying to say that Duncan Leung doesn't know or practice wing chun?


\
aH, AH, putting words in my mouth....  As to issues, I've stated the issues as some others have...  You'll have to use those as a jumping off point....


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> _*I've no idea what you are trying to say shotonoob.*(?)._ I think you obviously have issues with that applied wing chun video. Are you trying to say that Duncan Leung doesn't know or practice wing chun?


\
Here's TSD principles on how to handle the boxer, explained bya Female TSD instructor.  One not standing around, lollygagging like in my TKD fail backfist break vid... ha ha...




\
It's not that you have no idea of what I'm saying, it's that you don't have any idea of what this TSD Master instructor is saying....  Therein lies the total issue.  IN the form of the "static" exercise the WC instructor & Danny T are complaining about....
\
I don't see her demo as "static."  I don't see her running into her opponent with no defense.  I don't see her remaining stationary.  I see a (i) Start, (ii) Couple of complementary, synchronized moves CONTAINED in a specific body movement, & a Finnish.  Is that static?  I see some definite intent in her actions... who here talked about intent.?  I see definite KIME, & probably chi involvement (sorry guys, I don't think she's @ the chi-ball level.)....  I don;t see her trading punches (like Mr. Boxer who's got "Ring Experience") which we see in the poor quality striking so prevalent in MMA or typical sport karate.
\
Overall, most important, I see mental discipline.  She knows what she wants to do and does precisely that in the face of an attack...  World's apart from the behavior of so-called TMA striking experts in the Gracie demo vids...   WC is leaps & bounds above the straightforward dynamics demo'd here... REAL WC, that is...  
\
Mr. WC Instructor in my YT vid above... good luck with that... IMHO you'll need it/


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> This is some interesting perspective.
> 
> \
> Okinawan karate can be very sophisticated.... Approach bona fide wing chun;? IMO, never come close.
> 
> 
> \
> Agreed.  Lead to the 'watering down' of Japanese karateka training & capability.  Still, many Japanese karateka have still trained true to TMA principles...
> 
> 
> \
> Agreed.  Yet the underlying principles are what counts....  No better lesson on this than Five-animal kung fu.
> 
> 
> \
> False.  Gichin Funakoshi knows more than you do...
> 
> \
> No, this training method advocated by Funakoshi reaches back through Okinawan karate history and even much further back to China.  Funakoshi did engage in some re-engineering, as did other 20th Century Okinawan karate masters.  This purpose has been posted here @ MT and a zillion other places, in books, etc.
> 
> 
> \
> Horse crap by TMA standards.  But true of Monkey see, monkey-do pseudo karateka...
> 
> 
> \
> Not really up on the guy... a legend according to history I've read.
> \
> EDIT: I just visited a TSD dojang {sp?} in my area.  The instructor demonstrated to intermediate class, applications of "bunkai" in Pyung Ahn Cho Dan {sp?}.  Same idea, they have 10 kata {hyung?} in the black-belt curriculum (I think), versus one.



Hyeung = Kata = Form or Model.
The idea went from old masters who knew less then 3to5 kata  in their whole life, at an astonishing level of detail and depth, to arts of karate that have 2 or 3 kata *per* belt.

It would very much surpise you to know just how sophisticated the old ways were.


I dont even like to call the old stuff karate.. because it is nothing like what people think when they see a JKA sanctioned tournament. 

When the why is not taught, one has to show (rank) by how much one knows (by) volume instead of quality.

Should read the old masters criticism of the reforms... with the "plowing the field remarks about kata"


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's YOur Typical WC Instructor Rogan would love to spar with...  Another American Wing Chun Expert on YT who has figured out how all the Chinese Master's screwed up.... AGAIN!
> 
> 
> 
> \
> FINALLY, THIS WC INSTRUCTOR, HAS COME UP WITH "REAL" WC TO BEAT BOXING....  WHAT A RELIEF.... GET THE GUY A PLANE TICKET TO CHINA SO HE CAN STRAIGHTEN THE WC FOREFATHERS OUT, AT LONG LAST...
> \
> 1. For the record, there is, in of itself,  nothing wrong with sparring with some one from a different style, pressure testing, etc.  But it's just that a test.  It doesn't prove any thing about understanding WC.  The boxer opponent claims that WC sparring against WC using static technique isn't realistic.  In fact, that is how one precisely learns and hones the mental discipline to defeat the boxer with all that boxer "stuff" he can do....  The WC artist is learning principles, not parroting form like the boxer.... bob, stick, weave, jab... I take those guys apart.... with KIME (like Laszlo does the boards).
> 
> 2. TIME. 2:07.  WC stylist claims that "90%" of WC (he sees) can't close on the boxer (or alternatively handle the boxer from boxing distance).  KEY WORDS: "he sees."  Yeah, the whole truth is there is a lot of martial art practitioners who train TMA (like Joe Rogan) yet can't do TMA.
> \
> 3. TIME 2:28. To prove his point, WC stylist runs into the boxer with a "static" Wing Chun straight punch and gets clocked by a right cross counter by Mr. Boxer.  Earlier, the boxer guy faults WC for being static.  Funny how that worked out so well.... EDIT: Actually Shotokan kumite , which so many pan as "watered down," emphasizes just how to put off such a gambit.  IN JKA kumite we see it successfully done all the time...  it's principles, not mimicking a physical form...
> \
> Since I just visited a TSD school, I'll post a TSD vid showing how this WC stylist approach is all TMA wet.  For starters, stop "learning some techniques, some stuff;" then "playing" around with your "Great" knowledge...



Izzo is a dousche-canoe. All talk, in hong kong he wouldn't have any students,  due to the loss of face from master refusing all challenge matches.

"What, master won't fight again? I have to find a better teacher"
Of course Americans are pretty tame...


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Hyeung = Kata = Form or Model.


\
Tnx.


TSDTexan said:


> The idea went from old masters who knew less then 3to5 jata at an astonishing level of detail and depth, to arts of karate that have 2 or 3 kata per belt.


\
Yeah, I have read same about old Okinawan masters.  However, there's differing view on this.  I think the quantity of Modern kata is counter productive beyond say,1st degree black-belt, as a generalization....  so we share common ground there....



TSDTexan said:


> When the why is not taught, one has to show (rank) by how much one knows (by) volume instead of quality.


\
I'm a big "WHY" guy myself.



TSDTexan said:


> Should read the old masters criticism of the reforms... with the "plowing the field remarks about kata"


\
Well, the late Okinawan Masters' & Funakoshi had legitimate goals in mind.  The underlying principles of Okinawan karate are still in the Japanese versions.  Form & tactic was 'simplified,' technical details expanded as you say in many regards...  Funakoshi was sort of a bookworm....TMU.  But addresses the issue of over-use of  "reverse punch kumite...." which none other than  Machida is very guilty of....
'----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
\
In any event, the WC instructor in my YT vid above doesn't even know the principles, let alone tactics behind the TMA guard, in his case the WC extended arm guard.  IMHO, guy is clueless on the WHY FOR the traditional guard.... likens it to function of a boxer's static hands up guard....
\
Do you see the Female TSD instructors hands "stationary" during the 3 STAGES  of her 1-step demo?  And WOW, TSD is patterned off of that "watered down" Japanese karate, Shotokan.////  IN THE WC v. Boxer YT vid........Another case of, "I'll be cool and take up nifty, cool'o WC instead of that 'watered down,' Japanese karate -- with my BRAIN TURNED OFF."  Then I'll bring in "Boxer Bro" to show how smart I am... really showing the original Chinese masters who how to do it (WC) ....I'd be


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> It is not acceptable just to mimic perfectly the technique being shown in the OMA dojos.


\
Not be a purist, I agree with OP that Okinawan karate styles as a group  can take on the base & tactical skills akin to WC; but if you pressed me, I'd take out "WC" and substitute "Kempo."


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Tnx.
> 
> \
> Yeah, I have read same about old Okinawan masters.  However, there's differing view on this.  I think the quantity of Modern kata is counter productive beyond say,1st degree black-belt, as a generalization....  so we share common ground there....
> 
> 
> \
> I'm a big "WHY" guy myself.
> 
> 
> \
> Well, the late Okinawan Masters' & Funakoshi had legitimate goals in mind.  The underlying principles of Okinawan karate are still in the Japanese versions.  Form & tactic was 'simplified,' technical details expanded as you say in many regards...  Funakoshi was sort of a bookworm....TMU.  But addresses the issue of over-use of  "reverse punch kumite...." which none other than  Machida is very guilty of....
> '----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> \
> In any event, the WC instructor in my YT vid above doesn't even know the principles, let alone tactics behind the TMA guard, in his case the WC extended arm guard.  IMHO, guy is clueless on the WHY FOR the traditional guard.... likens it to function of a boxer's static hands up guard....
> \
> Do you see the Female TSD instructors hands "stationary" during the 3 STAGES  of her 1-step demo?  And WOW, TSD is patterned off of that "watered down" Japanese karate, Shotokan.////  IN THE WC v. Boxer YT vid........Another case of, "I'll be cool and take up nifty, cool'o WC instead of that 'watered down,' Japanese karate -- with my BRAIN TURNED OFF."  Then I'll bring in "Boxer Bro" to show how smart I am... really showing the original Chinese masters who how to do it (WC) ....I'd be




There is a great deal of debate where Hwang Kee actually got his Karate from. He claims from books. But he also trained and learned "chinese forms" from a Korean who trained under Toyama Sensei (and this Korean was trading CMA art for OMA with Toyama, and both were under the Imperial boot-heel)

But I have my reasons to think G. Yamaguichi taught Hwang Kee a bit in Manchuria while they were there at the same time.

Hwang Kee says Yamaguichi is a close personal friend of his. Then the whole Hard/Soft aspects pushed in early TSD are very gojo flavored. This gets spun with the Korean Karate book... that was actually written by a Chinese General in Korea... and TSD becomes Soobahk(do).

I see very little combat oriented TSD these days, but lots of soccer mom taking timmy to stripmall TSD mcDojang stuff these days.


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Izzo is a dousche-canoe. All talk, in hong kong he wouldn't have any students,  due to the loss of face from master refusing all challenge matches.
> 
> "What, master won't fight again? I have to find a better teacher"
> Of course Americans are pretty tame...


\
\
The sound lesson in his Video is that TMA is a mental discipline, and NOT the way he proposes  - a physical do this, don't do that in some TMA stylistic form.  I see the same problem with advocating physical pressure-testing versus the legitimate TMA mental training proposed by the TSD 1-step approach by the Female TSD Master instructor.
\
Wing chun really comes into its own as an internal powered style... so chi proponents & critics have a much larger hurdle to leap over to get to REAL WC... compared to karate.  That's my understanding....
\
Good luck all with that....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> There is a great deal of debate where Hwang Kee actually got his Karate from. He claims from books. But he also trained and learned "chinese forms" from a Korean who trained under Toyama Sensei (and this Korean was trading CMA art for OMA with Toyama, and both were under the Imperial bootheel)
> 
> But I have my reasons to think G. Yamaguichi taught Hwang Kee a bit in Manchuria while they were there at the same time.
> 
> Hwang Kee says Yamaguichi is a close personal friend of his.


\
Well having witnessed some Tang Soo Do first person... I would say the blending of TMA other than Shotokan was a certain plus.  TKD too, can be more fluid and not so physical & overly-aggressive as some of the Japanese karates.  We saw so in that excellent TKD-kickboxer YT vid someone here posted....a while ago.
\
EDIT: The TSD School {dojang} I recently visited claims northern Shaolin kung fu in it's style as a secondary influence...


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Here's TSD principles on how to handle the boxer, explained bya Female TSD instructor.  One not standing around, lollygagging like in my TKD fail backfist break vid... ha ha...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> It's not that you have no idea of what I'm saying, it's that you don't have any idea of what this TSD Master instructor is saying....  Therein lies the total issue.  IN the form of the "static" exercise the WC instructor & Danny T are complaining about....
> \
> I don't see her demo as "static."  I don't see her running into her opponent with no defense.  I don't see her remaining stationary.  I see a (i) Start, (ii) Couple of complementary, synchronized moves CONTAINED in a specific body movement, & a Finnish.  Is that static?  I see some definite intent in her actions... who here talked about intent.?  I see definite KIME, & probably chi involvement (sorry guys, I don't think she's @ the chi-ball level.)....  I don;t see her trading punches (like Mr. Boxer who's got "Ring Experience") which we see in the poor quality striking so prevalent in MMA or typical sport karate.
> \
> Overall, most important, I see mental discipline.  She knows what she wants to do and does precisely that in the face of an attack...  World's apart from the behavior of so-called TMA striking experts in the Gracie demo vids...   WC is leaps & bounds above the straightforward dynamics demo'd here... REAL WC, that is...
> \
> Mr. WC Instructor in my YT vid above... good luck with that... IMHO you'll need it/




And yet... it is still so far from its tsd roots as shown in some old 8mm films.


----------



## ShotoNoob

RUMBLE IN THE BRONX... THE WING CHUN CONEPT DONE CORRECT....




|
Here's Jackie Chan vs. "Tony."  Yeah great applied wing chun[?].  Yeah, superb karate can aspire to this level...    the mental discipline it takes is so much greater too....
\
Favorite demo @ 1:24.  This is why - IMO - virtually no non-kung fu stylist can stand up to bona fide kung fu stylist.
\
Sport karate competitors like Machida, best of luck with this......
\
Caveat: Jackie Chan a natural acrobat.


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Well having witnessed some Tang Soo Do first person... I would say the blending of TMA other than Shotokan was a certain plus.  TKD too, can be more fluid and not so physical & overly-aggressive as some of the Japanese karates.  We saw so in that excellent TKD-kickboxer YT vid someone here posted....a while ago.
> \
> EDIT: The TSD School {dojang} I recently visited claims northern Shaolin kung fu in it's style as a secondary influence...



Well the unproven claim of Hwang Kee was traing in Yang style Taichi. He only taught this 88 movement and a longer 150 movement yang family Taichi form. The problem is we cant find his teach or school in manchuria.


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> And yet... it is still so far from its tsd roots as shown in some old 8mm films.


\
Funakoshi made this clear when he developed the Shotokan curriculum.  The 1-steps are the same training that you show.... the exact same principles are developed & employed.  The 1-step isolates out the more involved complete training to foster focus on *applied kumite dynamics*.... the mental ones.... the mental ones, the mental ones... the mental ones.... especially KIME development & application in a simulated confrontational setting....  KIME, kime, kime, kime.... as apposed to our WC expert in my YT vid aimlessly running into MR. Experienced Boxer's right counter cross.  As opposed to those Gracie karate / KUNG FU foils aimlessly facing off against Gracie clan members....
\
First & hugely big lesson in Ms. TSD 1-steP I YT vid just posted.  THERE IS NOTHING AIMLESS ABOUT ANYTHING SHE DOES MENTALLY OR PHYSICALLY, DOWN TO THE EYELASH.  Her 3-stage demo has zero aimlessness. ZERO.  Now ramp up the 'aimlessness' in TSD by a factor of 50 to 100 & you have Wing Chun.
\
TMA critics, good luck with that....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Well the unproven claim of Hwang Kee was traing in Yang style Taichi. He only taught this 88 movement and a longer 150 movement yang family Taichi form. The problem is we cant find his teach or school in manchuria.


\
That's ok.  I'm a karate fighter.  I studied Shotokan &  related traditional kararte's to get the universal principles.  I think TSD has some improvements or better qualities over the JKA Shotokan karate.  _Based on examination of universal TMA principles.
\
here's laszlo again.  he's like me (i'm not that bookish.).




\
Ok, laszlo is not a self-defense expert here @ martial talk... In terms of the TMA base, however, there is nothing aimless about laszlo.  NOthing. In terms of building the real TMA base... be it Shotokan or WC, Laszlo is on his way... is showing the way.... precise use of whole body strength + KIME.
\
Laugh @ laszlo... at your own peril.....
\
EDIT: Laszlo relies a lot on body mechanics to break the board.  that's  often true of most karate styles....  WC relies more on internal energy to break the board....  Hence what seems to be more "static" in WC actually is propelled by internal power, not larger physical movement....  WC wannabees. good luck with that....
\
EDIT: lot's to mull over..... signing off._


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Funakoshi made this clear when he developed the Shotokan curriculum.  The 1-steps are the same training that you show.... the exact same principles are developed & employed.  The 1-step isolates out the more involved complete training to foster focus on *applied kumite dynamics*.... the mental ones.... the mental ones, the mental ones... the mental ones.... especially KIME development & application in a simulated confrontational setting....  KIME, kime, kime, kime.... as apposed to our WC expert in my YT vid aimlessly running into MR. Experienced Boxer's right counter cross.  As opposed to those Gracie karate / KUNG FU foils aimlessly facing off against Gracie clan members....
> \
> First & hugely big lesson in Ms. TSD 1-steP I YT vid just posted.  THERE IS NOTHING AIMLESS ABOUT ANYTHING SHE DOES MENTALLY OR PHYSICALLY, DOWN TO THE EYELASH.  Her 3-stage demo has zero aimlessness. ZERO.  Now ramp up the 'aimlessness' in TSD by a factor of 50 to 100 & you have Wing Chun.
> \
> TMA critics, good luck with that....



1steps predate G.F.'s curriculum.
Wing Chun has 1 step drills.

In fact Ip Man was known for pausing midform/midkata to spend a whole hour repeating a single or 1 step over and over.
Then factor in TSDs use of 3steps..... and we move even closer to WC.

Then Te using Pushing Hand just like some branches of WC....

Hmmm look long enough and hard enough you will find correspondance.
Of course Korea loves the Northern Leg along with the southern fist.

Northern and Southern Styles of Kung-Fu...

Hwang Kee says that Tang Soo Do is sixty percent Soo Bahk Do, thirty percent Northern Kung Fu and ten percent Southern Kung Fu.

The style gets its arts of self-defense from Soo Bahk Do and Tae Kyun, its fighting principles from Northern and Southern Chinese Kung-Fu, and its "moral guidelines" such as philosophy from the Tao, Lao Tzu, and Confucious.

I dont quite know why Kime is forbidden in WC.
Mindless Mind is also part of karate.

Mushin. Look it up.
Mushin (mental state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But yeah, shotonoob I didn't specify what kind of karate this A.W.C. looks like.
As for power generation internal vs external.
.... not all karate is pegged on the hard external end.

This kata by Gogen Yamaguichi is far softer than the Applied Karate... ahem.. cough I mean applied wing chun.






WRT powerg generation... he is doing kung fu.

Pay attention to the following link






And also the WC guy could use some KIME in his chain punches. Like the Kyukushin guy has.


----------



## wckf92

Wow...no idea what this thread is about at this point. Sorry I got involved. Best of luck lads...to each his own...


----------



## TSDTexan

wckf92 said:


> Wow...no idea what this thread is about at this point. Sorry I got involved. Best of luck lads...to each his own...
> View attachment 19578



Well it was started as an observation on how hard wing chun can get while training... that it looks like karate.

Shotonoob is saying that WC and Karate are totally different animals. I kinda agree... but dont take it to absolutes like he does.


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Well it was started as an observation on how hard wing chun can get while training... that it looks like karate.


\
Interesting thread discussion point.  But wing chun is markedly less physical than karate...  And that just the disassociation that supposed WC practitioners have here, not unlike other TMA misunderstandings.   They want to use the 'clever,' more complicated WC techniques as 'better' physical type fighting...  That's incompetent WC.



TSDTexan said:


> Shotonoob is saying that WC and Karate are totally different animals. I kinda agree... but dont take it to absolutes like he does.


\
Again, "totally" is putting words in my mouth.  And a a strong opinion based on serious study of TMA principles is only taking it to the absolute truths of TMA principles.  Not a rhetorical absolute like I get on some replies on here....
\
The correct way to look @ WC versus traditional karate is that WC is on a much higher incline of TMA sophistication.  A much higher plane.  Higher than Okinawan karate.
\
Feel free to disagree....  And good luck with that....


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> Wow...no idea what this thread is about at this point. Sorry I got involved. Best of luck lads...to each his own...
> View attachment 19578


\
Well, that's superb marketing to the big group that can't embrace TMA beyond a bunch of physical drills & exercises.  Cartoon responses.....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> And yet... it is still so far from its tsd roots as shown in some old 8mm films.


\
I'll look this over... you're the Master up in Michigan....
\
The training in the film seems very close to the class regimen @ the TSD dojang I have been visiting....  My TSD 1=-step YT vid is a certain & specific part of their class curriculum... So off the bat... I don't see what is so different???


----------



## TSDTexan

> ... less physical than karate...  And that just the disassociation that supposed WC practitioners have here, not unlike other TMA misunderstandings.   They want to use the 'clever,' more complicated WC techniques as 'better' physical type fighting...  That's incompetent WC.
> 
> The correct way to look @ WC versus traditional karate is that WC is on a much higher incline of TMA sophistication.  A much higher plane.  Higher than Okinawan karate.



Yes. I put paraphrasing in your mouth. O.0

Until you actually dig deep into "Te" like Sensei Patrick Mcarthy... you essentially speak from ignorance when you declare what degree of sophistication Oki "Te" is when compared to something else.
B)
How many first hand really old school style OMA have you talked with first hand???? 1? 7? 15?

How much higher?  There is no way for you to even quantify that specific number. In percentage of sophistication.
Which only gives us < or > or = .

But I will leave that rabbittrail be.


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I'll look this over... you're the Master up in Michigan....
> \
> The training in the film seems very close to the class regimen @ the TSD dojang I have been visiting....  My TSD 1=-step YT vid is a certain & specific part of their class curriculum... So off the bat... I don't see what is so different???


Umm no. I am out in Oregon.
\
Whats taught in the TSD mcDojangs looks only superficially the same. On the whole, in my limited 1st hand sampling, they crumple like tinfoil under sparing. Too much distance fighting tag tournements etc.

It has deviated from the Korean War tested hardbitten serious art it used to be.

Thats not to say it cannot be found anymore.  Just that it is rather rare.


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Pay attention to the following link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also the WC guy could use some KIME in his chain punches. Like the Kyukushin guy has.


\
Wow, that's a huge post.  I'll take a longer look later... have to go.  BRIEFLY....
\
On the WC vs Kyo vid, we have to account for the skill level of the practitioners...
\
Kyo practitioners, wrongly & typically use poor to little KIME.  What they do have is physical like strength & AGGRESSION like the boxer, MT, etc..., etc.
\
It's not the fault of Kyo as a style, it's the fault of expediency into full contact without the proper, prepared traditional karate base.
\
A solid WC guy will on balance, dismantle & destroy the Kyo guy.   My judgement is based on the capabilities I have mentioned about WC.
\
Solid WC guys are relatively rare, especially compared to the rock-em, sock-em KYO "self-proclaimed" tough guys....
\
My Rumble in the Bronx, JC demo,  no KYO can stand up to that....  speed, power & tactics (including technical defense).  And you don't get that by doing a bunch of Physical WC pressure drills....  never....
\
THOUGHT POINT: AGGRESSION IS OK IN KARATE.... NEVER IN KUNG FU.  Good luck with that....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Umm no. I am out in Oregon.


\
oops....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Yes. I put paraphrasing in your mouth. O.0
> 
> Until you actually dig deep into "Te" like Sensei Patrick Mcarthy... you essentially speak from ignorance when you declare what degree of sophistication Oki "Te" is when compared to something else.
> B)
> How many first hand really old school style OMA have you talked with first hand???? 1? 7? 15?
> 
> How much higher?  There is no way for you to even quantify that specific number. In percentage of sophistication.
> Which only gives us < or > or = .
> 
> But I will leave that rabbittrail be.


\
NOw, now... that's a bit high handed...  I have based my opinion on my personal study...  I don't need Patrick McCarthy's approval.  There's other sources out there...
\
I have spoken highly of Okinawan karate here  MT.... Your comment comes across as defensive of yourstyle...  I'm on record here defending all TMA styles.  And my practicing TMA opinion is kung fu > Okinawan karate.  Period...  that's the fact in my mind.  Is Okinawan karate as a group very strong TMA.... sure.


----------



## TSDTexan

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> NOw, now... that's a bit high handed...  I have based my opinion on my personal study...  I don't need Patrick McCarthy's approval.  There's other sources out there...
> \
> I have spoken highly of Okinawan karate here  MT.... Your comment comes across as defensive of yourstyle...  I'm on record here defending all TMA styles.  And my practicing TMA opinion is kung fu > Okinawan karate.  Period...  that's the fact in my mind.  Is Okinawan karate as a group very strong TMA.... sure.


Nah bro. All tma is as good as the teacher who can teach it, the student can apply himself to it, and the unbrokenness of its ma.
Its a spectrum.

What you call Oki Karate is Chuan fa or Kung fu.
You are saying one is a weaker cousin.
I say both are spectrums and its hard to compare two such vast array of systems.

Cma > oma > jma =/- kma

Vs
Cma +/=/-  all.


----------



## JPinAZ

While I also have no idea what this thread is really going on about, there are a few thing I will comment on.



ShotoNoob said:


> _*Pressure testing emphasis does not produce good TMA of any ilk.*_  Pressure testing is more in line with sport training theory.  _What produces good TMA is practice to the standards of TMA principles.  This is even more imperative with a highly sophisticated martial art like WC._




The first sentence is really clueless IMO, regardless how much bolding one does  
The second is even more clueless. (more in a second on that)
The last 2 are only theoretical - _unless_ you are pressure testing what you are learning. In order to build and qualify actual skill in ANY art, you need pressure testing - has nothing to do with 'traditional', 'sport', WC, karate or anything else.. Without pressure testing you have NO WAY of even _knowing _what produces what.

Should be applied to the above quote haha (edited for correctness) 


ShotoNoob said:


> This statement [edit] is horse crap/QUOTE]


----------



## JPinAZ

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Here's TSD principles on how to handle the boxer, explained bya Female TSD instructor.  One not standing around, lollygagging like in my TKD fail backfist break vid... ha ha...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> \
> It's not that you have no idea of what I'm saying, it's that you don't have any idea of what this TSD Master instructor is saying....  Therein lies the total issue.  IN the form of the "static" exercise the WC instructor & Danny T are complaining about....
> \
> I don't see her demo as "static."  I don't see her running into her opponent with no defense.  I don't see her remaining stationary.  I see a (i) Start, (ii) Couple of complementary, synchronized moves CONTAINED in a specific body movement, & a Finnish.  Is that static?  I see some definite intent in her actions... who here talked about intent.?  I see definite KIME, & probably chi involvement (sorry guys, I don't think she's @ the chi-ball level.)....  I don;t see her trading punches (like Mr. Boxer who's got "Ring Experience") which we see in the poor quality striking so prevalent in MMA or typical sport karate.
> \
> Overall, most important, I see mental discipline.  She knows what she wants to do and does precisely that in the face of an attack...  World's apart from the behavior of so-called TMA striking experts in the Gracie demo vids...   WC is leaps & bounds above the straightforward dynamics demo'd here... REAL WC, that is...
> \
> Mr. WC Instructor in my YT vid above... good luck with that... IMHO you'll need it/



Did I miss something? I didn't see anything in the clip except a woman stepping back and doing a few patterned moves in the air without a partner. How is this a demo of defense or how to handle anything? Maybe if she showed it against a real live boxer that isn't trying to go along with a demo, then you might have something. But you can't really be serious that you feel the clip is representative of 'how to handle a boxer'?!?


----------



## JPinAZ

ShotoNoob said:


> Here's Jackie Chan vs. "Tony."  Yeah great applied wing chun[?].  Yeah, superb karate can aspire to this level...    the mental discipline it takes is so much greater too....
> \
> Favorite demo @ 1:24.  This is why - IMO - virtually no non-kung fu stylist can stand up to bona fide kung fu stylist.



Did I miss something again or maybe you are implying sarcasm here? If not, you realize this is a choreographed movie fight scene right? 
But if you really believe the last statement above, do you base this on anything more than movie clips?


----------



## wckf92

JPinAZ said:


> Did I miss something again or maybe you are implying sarcasm here? If not, you realize this is a choreographed movie fight scene right?
> But if you really believe the last statement above, do you base this on anything more than movie clips?



Hence why I abandoned this very weird conversation JP! I can't make heads or tails of this shotonoobs writing...


----------



## Jake104

Phobius said:


> I think the point was that his Wing Chun is named 'Combat WC' and is done so simply to show respect to its root while still focusing more on sharpening a few of the techniques rather than being a jack-of-all-techniques. It could just as simply be named 'ABC guide to a good combat experience' but such a name would just get someone to complain that it is too similar to WC.
> 
> It is WC, just a bit of different focus from what I hear. Problem is that if techniques are removed in order to sharpen others, the next generation might not know the techniques exist and are unable to sharpen what would work best for them but rather enforce usage of other techniques. How is this mitigated in 'Combat WC', a question of pure curiousity.
> 
> See nothing wrong in sharpening, it is one of those words my sifu mentions all the time. It is the way we study as well but perhaps slightly less sharpening as we dont leave techniques out but rather validate their use to ourself before moving on.


Thanks for pretty much summing up my part of this thread. Been busy, now I check back and this thread has wondered off into the abyss.

I have learned "traditional" from two different sources. First one I was with for a substantial amount of time. Second I was only with for 6 months and even that teaching wasn't technically "traditional". Basically it was 6 months of making my WC better. Per the deal we had, and it did.

Now I'm learning WC in a bit of a different way. I already have the traditional method for the most part. So I'm learning what 'I' like to call the 4th demension of the art. Here's what I mean by that.

So in the forms you learn 3 applications for every technique? Well, now I'am being taught the 4th 5th-100th. Now I'am learning methods or ideas not techniques. We still go through the traditional 3 and the rest of the traditional stuff ( maybe even stuff I haven't traditionally learned yet?) because if I didn't have that, I'd have no foundation and all the 4th demension crap wouldn't matter. In essence it would be like building a structure on sand. It would be "reduntant" or useless, cause i wouldn't have a solid foundation to build upon. So in other words, I really wouldn't get the advanced stuff. Which is really just basic stuff looked at from a different perspective. Oooh look at that " the secret sauce" is revealed.

This is why I think there are some people on here that get what I say, and I get what they say. They too are in the "4th demension" (again this is MY buzz word, so it means nothing. Kind of like Snake engine lol). Then, there are others that just don't get it. They are stuck in techniques and there abc's.

Oh well, good luck to all! Different strokes for different folks. I will say, the proof is always in the pudding though. And the early bird gets the worm.

I'm guessing, I like to use proverbial phrases?


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> Nah bro. All tma is as good as the teacher who can teach it, the student can apply himself to it, and the unbrokenness of its ma.
> Its a spectrum.
> 
> What you call Oki Karate is Chuan fa or Kung fu.
> You are saying one is a weaker cousin.
> I say both are spectrums and its hard to compare two such vast array of systems.
> 
> Cma > oma > jma =/- kma
> 
> Vs
> Cma +/=/-  all.


\
I get it.  But I still maintain my position.  opinions vary.
\
Tnx for the neat sum up in your reply....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JPinAZ said:


> While I also have no idea what this thread is really going on about, there are a few thing I will comment on.


\
Well, neither does that Izzo? WC master instructor...  some agreement on that...  but he thinks he's got it all figured out.  His PRESSURE TESTING AGAINST MR. EXPERIENCE BOXER & MR. HUGE GUY 'proves' he's right.   Geese.


JPinAZ said:


> The first sentence is really clueless IMO, regardless how much bolding one does


\
Opinions vary....
\
Yeah and you're using smiley's  too!


JPinAZ said:


> The second is even more clueless. (more in a second on that)


\
Well then the TMA I just mentioned I've been visiting is clueless to.  Not to mention all of the JKA, etc., etc.  And don't forget that S. African Shotokan Master I posted who many here all lauded.
\
Pressure testing is for people who want to prove they are better.  Building the base is what gets you better....  If you need pressure testing to train TMA, then your TMA training base is deficient....  we've seen many a vid confirming so posted here.


JPinAZ said:


> The last 2 are only theoretical - _unless_ you are pressure testing what you are learning. In order to build and qualify actual skill in ANY art, you need pressure testing - has nothing to do with 'traditional', 'sport', WC, karate or anything else..


\
Again, your position is in direct contradiction with most of the historical Okinawan karate training.  And with CMA as well.  Pressure testing the emphasis is largely a western concept.


JPinAZ said:


> Without pressure testing you have NO WAY of even _knowing _what produces what.


Sure you do.  Pressure testing gives validation and points out where some corrections & modifications might need to be made.  That's correct.
\
BIGGER TRUTH: Proven & accepted theory works.  I can engineer & build a bridge using engineering & construction practices.  How often do newly constructed bridges collapse once use begins?  That's called science.  Of course martial practitioners who don't really understand what they are doing or supposed to be doing then use pressure testing as a BIG crutch, constantly trying to plug the holes in their swiss-cheese dyke of knowledge....
\
Try that on for size.  CLUELESS.


JPinAZ said:


> Should be applied to the above quote haha (edited for correctness)


\
Yeah, ha.  If you want to pressure test, train under regular pressure... . by all means go ahead.  But don't call that the TMA model 'cause  it ain't.  The TMA model centers on the individual and the internal development of same..... so EXPLICITLY presented in this club's (I'm visiting) TSD manual, as well as the section on TSD here at martial talk.


----------



## ShotoNoob

JPinAZ said:


> Did I miss something? I didn't see anything in the clip except a woman stepping back and doing a few patterned moves in the air without a partner. How is this a demo of defense or how to handle anything? Maybe if she showed it against a real live boxer that isn't trying to go along with a demo, then you might have something. But you can't really be serious that you feel the clip is representative of 'how to handle a boxer'?!?


\
Like the smiley... it's a demo... didn't some other posters run this argument into the ground @ other threads....
\
Your statement is again, what the adolescent students criticize to the Master I am working, this mindset is what he is encountering....
\
Sounds like noise coming from the 'pressure tester' versions of McDojo's.
\
As I've stated, I never encountered a boxer I couldn't defeat. And I train just like in the woman 1-step vid.  And the TSD school I've visiting uses these.  If you think 'pressure testing' is the magic elixir, if may well be for how you train.  But's that's not TMA theory.  Does make for great marketing to prospective students who lack intellectual capacity of a college student....
\
EDIT: So yeah, you missed what TMA theory is all about....  Bestof luck with that/....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Jake104 said:


> Thanks for pretty much summing up my part of this thread. Been busy, now I check back and this thread has wondered off into the abyss.


\
abyss?  You mean you can't address my points....
[edit]


Jake104 said:


> Oh well, good luck to all! Different strokes for different folks. I will say, the proof is always in the pudding though. And the early bird gets the worm.
> 
> I'm guessing, I like to use proverbial phrases?


\
I have no idea what substance is in "phobias" post.  "True to roots yet sharpening techniques for combat?"  Again, thinking one is better because you've learned how to 'improve' WC?  So over-generalized.  Again, sounds like a marketing program,Like that YT WC vs. Boxer vid.  Phobius statement is so over-generalized that's adding what value?
\
Every TMA artist is trying to improve.  Every TMA artist is seeking to be effective in application.  There's this big myth that somehow American's in the 21st Century have devised something better than, some improvement to TMA.... as opposed to really understanding the historical Master's teachings....  Again, an effective marketing program, I'm sure.
\
Good luck with that....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> I dont quite know why Kime is forbidden in WC.
> Mindless Mind is also part of karate.
> 
> Mushin. Look it up.
> Mushin (mental state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. ,


\
The mental discipline developed & employed in kung fu is critical & even more important and stronger compared to karate.  This includes the concept & dynamics of KIME, not exclude it.  Same for "mushin."
\
A huge value of Ginchin Funakoshi's karate is that he explicitly brought the concept of KIME to our attention and emphasized it's critical importance.




TSDTexan said:


> Pay attention to the following link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also the WC guy could use some KIME in his chain punches. Like the Kyukushin guy has.


\
Yeah, the WC guy is horrible.  So he got clobbered.  That's what your vid shows me.  What's it show to you.... that you like Kyo > WC?
\
On the vid I edited out, the traditional Okinawan karates pay more attention to ki development, internal energy strength than do the traditional Japanese {modern} karates.  i stipulate to that....


----------



## Phobius

Jake104 said:


> Thanks for pretty much summing up my part of this thread. Been busy, now I check back and this thread has wondered off into the abyss.
> 
> I have learned "traditional" from two different sources. First one I was with for a substantial amount of time. Second I was only with for 6 months and even that teaching wasn't technically "traditional". Basically it was 6 months of making my WC better. Per the deal we had, and it did.
> 
> Now I'm learning WC in a bit of a different way. I already have the traditional method for the most part. So I'm learning what 'I' like to call the 4th demension of the art. Here's what I mean by that.
> 
> So in the forms you learn 3 applications for every technique? Well, now I'am being taught the 4th 5th-100th. Now I'am learning methods or ideas not techniques. We still go through the traditional 3 and the rest of the traditional stuff ( maybe even stuff I haven't traditionally learned yet?) because if I didn't have that, I'd have no foundation and all the 4th demension crap wouldn't matter. In essence it would be like building a structure on sand. It would be "reduntant" or useless, cause i wouldn't have a solid foundation to build upon. So in other words, I really wouldn't get the advanced stuff. Which is really just basic stuff looked at from a different perspective. Oooh look at that " the secret sauce" is revealed.



I will ignore the other discussion, too crazy for me. Just replying to you.

So being curious about your style. What you are saying is that the whole dictionary of words (techniques) are still present. It is just that you focus mostly on a few words of those when building sentences in order to learn to phrase yourself better and explain complicated matters while others might still use the words in sentences that does not always make sense? (Meaning the dictionaries are unaltered? SLT, CK and so on...) I hope then that it does not differ much from most WC out there, as I wish for people to study in ways similar to myself because I like it this way. Others may of course not agree and are free to do so, it is just harder for them to prove me wrong in my own mind. 

On personal note my level is only now on learning easier phrases, the more complicated sentences are not yet there for me.


----------



## ShotoNoob

JPinAZ said:


> Did I miss something again or maybe you are implying sarcasm here? If not, you realize this is a choreographed movie fight scene right?
> But if you really believe the last statement above, do you base this on anything more than movie clips?


\
shallow response... just negative criticism....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Phobius said:


> I will ignore the other discussion, too crazy for me. Just replying to you.
> 
> So being curious about your style. What you are saying is that the whole dictionary of words (techniques) are still present. It is just that you focus mostly on a few words of those when building sentences in order to learn to phrase yourself better and explain complicated matters while others might still use the words in sentences that does not always make sense?
> 
> On personal note my level is only now on learning easier phrases, the more complicated sentences are not yet there for me.


\
Again, a generalized analogy great for infomercials.... Doesn't speak to any specifics of the TMA curriculum.
\
Yet my "illustrations" are criticized.  Be honest.  If you want to promote a school, say so.  There's marketing & promotions going on at the TSD dojang I'm visiting right now.  I don't agree or buy all they say -- they're trying to entice the public to join....that's a whole 'nother art itself.
\
Good luck with that...


----------



## VT_Vectis

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Well, neither does that Izzo? WC master instructor...  some agreement on that...  but he thinks he's got it all figured out.  His PRESSURE TESTING AGAINST MR. EXPERIENCE BOXER & MR. HUGE GUY 'proves' he's right.   Geese.
> 
> \
> Opinions vary....
> \
> Yeah and you're using smiley's  too!
> 
> \
> Well then the TMA I just mentioned I've been visiting is clueless to.  Not to mention all of the JKA, etc., etc.  And don't forget that S. African Shotokan Master I posted who many here all lauded.
> \
> Pressure testing is for people who want to prove they are better.  Building the base is what gets you better....  If you need pressure testing to train TMA, then your TMA training base is deficient....  we've seen many a vid confirming so posted here.
> 
> \
> Again, your position is in direct contradiction with most of the historical Okinawan karate training.  And with CMA as well.  Pressure testing the emphasis is largely a western concept.
> 
> Sure you do.  Pressure testing gives validation and points out where some corrections & modifications might need to be made.  That's correct.
> \
> BIGGER TRUTH: Proven & accepted theory works.  I can engineer & build a bridge using engineering & construction practices.  How often do newly constructed bridges collapse once use begins?  That's called science.  Of course martial practitioners who don't really understand what they are doing or supposed to be doing then use pressure testing as a BIG crutch, constantly trying to plug the holes in their swiss-cheese dyke of knowledge....
> \
> Try that on for size.  CLUELESS.
> 
> \
> Yeah, ha.  If you want to pressure test, train under regular pressure... . by all means go ahead.  But don't call that the TMA model 'cause  it ain't.  The TMA model centers on the individual and the internal development of same..... so EXPLICITLY presented in this club's (I'm visiting) TSD manual, as well as the section on TSD here at martial talk.




I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes






That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.

Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.


----------



## ShotoNoob

VT_Vectis said:


> I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes


\
You mean that since you don't have an answer.... you won't accept my illustrations.... I get it.
\


VT_Vectis said:


> That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.


\
Again, see my position statement:
QUALIFIER: IF ONE DOESN'T TRAIN TMA WITH MENTAL DISCIPLINE....  WHICH IS WHAT DEFINES TMA VS. NON-TMA MARTIAL ARTS...
\
That said, you will have very large following believing in your PRESSURE TESTING approach.  You will get results with PRESSURE TESTING.  But it is not TMA.


VT_Vectis said:


> Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.


\
There is a large community in martial that supports and adheres to your position.  Go with it....


----------



## ShotoNoob

VT_Vectis said:


> I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes
> [edit out vid, see VT's original post above]
> That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.
> 
> Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.


\
Instead of the rhetoric replies I've been getting [swimming on dry land,etc.], I'll set forth by TMA principles, here traditional karate,
what's wrong with your YT vid 'evidence.'  Not all the reasons, but highlight key ones...
\
Incidentally, I luv the vid... proves my point(s)
\
1. The 'karate' guys are scoring points with light contact akin to sport karate rules.
2. The boxer's are hitting with hard contact according to boxing rules.
3. The 'karate' guys are moving & bouncing all over the place, in contraction to the 1-Step vid  / Vintage TSD / TMA YT Vid posted by none other than TSDTEXAN.  In your YT Vid, the 'karate' guys defense is built around running away.  Their defense is as close to 100% incompetent by the traditional karate curriculum as one can get...  The famous Monty Python Defense: RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY.
4. The 'karate' guys are closing the distance without a plan, hoping to land a haphazard, single technique.
\
So VT, you've taken the traditional karate model along with Gichin Funakoshi's curriculum & thrown it out the window, then claim the traditional karate doesn't hold up against pressure testing....
\  
I do luv that vid... tnx for posting.  And VT, when doing your swimming don't forget to "shake it out, shake it out."


----------



## ShotoNoob

HERE'S THE TKD BACKFIST BREAK FAIL YT VID.




A few salient points (TMA Points):
1. We have 'karate guys' in VT-Vectis's YT vid fighting with so-called karate on par with the members in this TKD class.
\
2. IOW, Recreationally-oriented karateka or at the best, Beginner-level sport karateka going up against decent hard contact boxers....
\
I have no doubt from VT's YT vid, that the boxer's would wipe out every single student in the TKD class above... as if we wonder why!!!
\
3. The only interesting moral I see here... is how in this Backfist Miss YT vid I have here, the question whether the two Black-Gi'd TKD Instructors could stand up to some _pressure testing_, say like in the VT_Vectis Karate vs. Boxing vid.  Would be humorous & highly entertaining however it turned out, I'm  sure....
\
Their knowledge of traditional TKD as imparted by their students, including the black-belts is (I have no words).


----------



## TSDTexan

VT_Vectis said:


> I don't agree with relying on Sifu YouTube to make a point, yet you seem to rely on it as evidence so here it goes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what happens without learning how to get hit , pressure testing, and just "swimming on dry land". He wasn't even trying that hard.
> 
> Now I've dipped my toes in , I'll leave it alone.



I will also leave it alone after the following. 
We have no visable sign of ranking/training advancement for the boxer... so a skill level mismatch is likekly present. 
Secondly, this is distance jka type karate post shotokan era,
This is very much not the infighting that wins against boxing like motobu choki used. No backpedals, solid defense plus advances.


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> I will also leave it alone after the following.
> 1. We have no visable sign of ranking/training advancement for the boxer... so a skill level mismatch is likekly present.
> 2. Secondly, this is distance jka type karate post shotokan era,
> 3. This is very much not the infighting that wins against boxing like motobu choki used. No backpedals, solid defense plus advances.


\
Hey tnx for the follow up.
\
1. Agreed.
2. In form, I agree.  But that is all it is. Empty form.  And this kumite convention evolved later than Funakoshi's official curriculum.  The 'distance fighting' is a partial subset of Shotokan kumite & kumite training proper.  Only a portion, only a conventional sport strategy...
3. Exactly.  Or as presented in my and your 1-step YT vids where the karateka moves in & engages --- not simply springs all around & trades a punch or kick here or there.... again GESSE....


----------



## ShotoNoob

AS I'VE SAID, I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF SHOTOKAN, BUT:
\
HERE'S HOW COMPETENT SHOTOKAN karateka WOULD HANDLE MR. EXPERIENCE BOXER (Ha!)\
\




\
I can criticize this high-ranking JKA Shotokan Master.  I can find aspects I don't like about Shotokan and point them out.  I can agree that Okinawan karate is more sophisticated.
\
The bottom line is that The Shotokan Master here actively engages the opponent and ends the fight quickly & efficiently.  It's a demo of how good, TRADITIONAL  Shotokan does so.
\
Tying back to WC, ramp up the TMA principles displayed here by about 50x, and you have bona-fide WC.

After you shake it out, good luck with that....
\
EDIT" Basically what i have posted in action....


----------



## wckf92

this would / might be so fascinating...if it were taking place over on the shotokan forum...or the boxing forum...or the karate forum...or the...


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> this would / might be so fascinating...if it were taking place over on the shotokan forum...or the boxing forum...or the karate forum...or the...


\
As opposed to the YT Vid VT-Vecits put up?  Ha, yeah.
\
Great diverting answer.... the issues I raised?  WC vs. karate (part of the thread contains karate).  TMA principles are universal...
\
Pressure test away, then "shake it out....(see Backfist fail YT vid for both pressure testing & shaking it out)"


----------



## wckf92




----------



## Xue Sheng

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> WC vs. karate



Thread title "*Applied Wing Chun is almost karate*"

There is nothing in the statement that says *versus *(vs)

meaning
1) against (especially in sports and legal use).

2) as opposed to; in contrast to.

And now back to Wing Chun


----------



## Danny T

Would be far more interesting if the video were not of choreographed fighting for a movie. 
Making opinions of a systems ability to develop anything based upon a choreographed action is weak. Demos are simply that. Learn movements, understand what creates the movement, and what the movement can be utilized for. Practice it, ingrain it, do it slowly and smoothly, build up to doing it with speed, and do it vs someone not being compliant. You don't want to train that way or to practice that way... That is Okay! Doesn't mean the one who does is training incorrectly. 

Oh and pressure testing doesn't mean 'sport' practice, ego driven, win or lose attitude. It can simply be I want to be able to perform at speed and against someone actually attacking and re-countering my counters. There are many pieces to the learning and skill development process. Practice under pressure is but one piece.


----------



## geezer

ShotoNoob said:


> That said, you will have very large following believing in your PRESSURE TESTING approach.  You will get results with PRESSURE TESTING.  But it is not TMA.



I guess I was of the mistaken impression that the TMA evolved during periods where they were tested hard and often. The "pressure-testing" advocates simply want to see that practice continued (in a safe and responsible way) in modern times. It seems worthwhile to me ...at least as _part_ of the training process.


----------



## yak sao

You are saying that TMA does not pressure test. WC is classified as a traditional martial art, and it has pressure testing built right into its curriculum... A little thing we call chi sau.


----------



## JPinAZ

Shotonoob = clueless troll = Ignore list. 
Problem solved! lol


----------



## geezer

JPinAZ said:


> Shotonoob = clueless troll = Ignore list.
> Problem solved! lol



I don't know. I might be interested in some of his points ...if only I could understand him. Guess that makes _me_ clueless. For starters, I don't know why he goes by the name _Shotonoob_ if he's not a_ noob_ and doesn't even like _Shotokan_ all that much.

Oh, and if he doesn't do WC, why does he get so heatedly involved in debates on this sub-forum? Of course, _everybody's_ opinion is welcome. But if it's not your system, it's not worth getting worked up over...

And finally, all this talk about _kime. _That's not a term used in WC. _Fa-jin_ maybe. But from what I gather, kime is about tensing up at impact. Something I try to _avoid_. Maybe style neutral terms like _focus _and _power generation, short-power, _etc. would be helpful here?

Oh yeah... one other thing. Why do you put a back-slash between lines when you skip down to make another comment?
\
Yeah like that. Is it a personal typing style, a convention I'm not familiar with, or something special about your keyboard?

So, _Shoto, _how about a little clarification? _I'd_ sure appreciate it.


----------



## TSDTexan

geezer said:


> I don't know. I might be interested in some of his points ...if only I could understand him. Guess that makes _me_ clueless. For starters, I don't know why he goes by the name _Shotonoob_ if he's not a_ noob_ and doesn't even like _Shotokan_ all that much.
> 
> Oh, and if he doesn't do WC, why does he get so heatedly involved in debates on this sub-forum? Of course, _everybody's_ opinion is welcome. But if it's not your system, it's not worth getting worked up over...
> 
> And finally, all this talk about _kime. _That's not a term used in WC. _Fa-jin_ maybe. But from what I gather, kime is about tensing up at impact. Something I try to _avoid_. Maybe style neutral terms like _focus _and _power generation, short-power, _etc. would be helpful here?
> 
> Oh yeah... one other thing. Why do you put a back-slash between lines when you skip down to make another comment?
> \
> Yeah like that. Is it a personal typing style, a convention I'm not familiar with, or something special about your keyboard?
> 
> So, _Shoto, _how about a little clarification? _I'd_ sure appreciate it.


This is kime defined. Worth a moment of your time.

What is Kime in Karate? | KARATE by Jesse

It is not tensing. Not at all. It is relaxing one set of muscles and / or tendons at a very precise and specific distance while fully relaxing said muscles before instantly engaging different muscle to move in a different direction.

Usually in the opposite direction.


To correctly chain punch requires kime.


----------



## TSDTexan

TSDTexan said:


> This is kime defined. Worth a moment of your time.
> 
> What is Kime in Karate? | KARATE by Jesse
> 
> It is not tensing. Not at all. It is relaxing one set of muscles and / or tendons at a very precise and specific distance while fully relaxing said muscles before instantly engaging different muscle to move in a different direction.
> 
> Usually in the opposite direction.
> 
> 
> To correctly chain punch requires kime.




This performer uses kime... to an extreme degree.





This plays a hugh part in punching technique and wrist rotation. While WC prefers the vertical fist almost to all other, because it uses a relaxed arm and wrist... many WC teachers say karate has tensed arms and wrists.

Thus is less then accurate.
1. Not all karate punch in such a manner as this link will show.
Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Blog : Why Does The Punching Fist Rotate 180 Degrees?

Also these are kime for drillbits.


----------



## wckf92

geezer said:


> I don't know. I might be interested in some of his points ...if only I could understand him. Guess that makes _me_ clueless. For starters, I don't know why he goes by the name _Shotonoob_ if he's not a_ noob_ and doesn't even like _Shotokan_ all that much.
> 
> Oh, and if he doesn't do WC, why does he get so heatedly involved in debates on this sub-forum? Of course, _everybody's_ opinion is welcome. But if it's not your system, it's not worth getting worked up over...
> 
> And finally, all this talk about _kime. _That's not a term used in WC. _Fa-jin_ maybe. But from what I gather, kime is about tensing up at impact. Something I try to _avoid_. Maybe style neutral terms like _focus _and _power generation, short-power, _etc. would be helpful here?
> 
> Oh yeah... one other thing. Why do you put a back-slash between lines when you skip down to make another comment?
> \
> Yeah like that. Is it a personal typing style, a convention I'm not familiar with, or something special about your keyboard?
> 
> So, _Shoto, _how about a little clarification? _I'd_ sure appreciate it.



\
I'm sure shoto will just say either:
1) shake it off
or
2) good luck with that


----------



## Danny T

wckf92 said:


> \
> I'm sure shoto will just say either:
> 1) shake it off
> or
> 2) good luck with that


Every time I am in a 'whaattt' thought. Just what does that mean.
"Shake it out, Shake it out" ???

His "/ Good luck with that" is a simple insult to whomever it is directed. He is saying you don't the intelligence or knowledge to understand or be on his level of thought.


----------



## wckf92

Danny T said:


> His "/ Good luck with that" is a simple insult to whomever it is directed. He is saying you don't the intelligence or knowledge to understand or be on his level of thought.



Yep, pretty much what I was thinking too...


----------



## JPinAZ

yes, this type of behavior doesn't even deserve the wasted energy of a reply. Hence, Ignore


----------



## Marnetmar

yak sao said:


> You are saying that TMA does not pressure test. WC is classified as a traditional martial art, and it has pressure testing built right into its curriculum... A little thing we call chi sau.


----------



## ShotoNoob

geezer said:


> I guess I was of the mistaken impression that the TMA evolved during periods where they were tested hard and often.


That's not what the TMA model says.  So I don't know how you have come to this idea.
\
No doubt TMA practitioners have ALWAYS pressure tested themselves throughout history.... if because of nothing else but human nature.


geezer said:


> The "pressure-testing" advocates simply want to see that practice continued (in a safe and responsible way) in modern times. It seems worthwhile to me ...at least as _part_ of the training process.


\
I've always agreed in principle with your / this position.  Have said so many-a-time, in numerous threads here @ MT.
\
Obviously, pressure testing would be highly valuable as a huge wake-up call to those training incompetently or shallowly.  RE the BAck Fist MISS YT Vid.  Furthermore, what I like about the full contact environment in MMA, where a host of rules are in place to ensure some measure of safety for TMA practitioners who wish to test their skills in a full contact venue.
\
Of course as you advocate, this can be experienced in the TMA school, dojo, etc.
\
EDIT: Pressure testing is not a replacement nor an absolute measure of one training the whole TMA model.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Xue Sheng said:


> Thread title "*Applied Wing Chun is almost karate*"
> 
> There is nothing in the statement that says *versus *(vs)
> 
> meaning
> 1) against (especially in sports and legal use).
> 
> 2) as opposed to; in contrast to.
> 
> And now back to Wing Chun
> 
> [edit]


\
Huh? Sound like an attorney who needs more clients....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Danny T said:


> Would be far more interesting if the video were not of choreographed fighting for a movie


\
This argument have been hashed and rehashed by other posters separate from me on other threads.\
|
Guess we need to sign up @ your school to get the real dope...


Danny T said:


> Oh and pressure testing doesn't mean 'sport' practice, ego driven, win or lose attitude. It can simply be I want to be able to perform at speed and against someone actually attacking and re-countering my counters. There are many pieces to the learning and skill development process. Practice under pressure is but one piece.


\
I've always been in general agreement with same.  Never been acknowledged here @ MT though.....


----------



## ShotoNoob

JPinAZ said:


> Shotonoob = clueless troll = Ignore list.
> Problem solved! lol


\
Non-response....  somewhere else you'll likely / probably post that you recommend to your students to keep an open mind....


----------



## ShotoNoob

geezer said:


> I don't know. I might be interested in some of his points ...if only I could understand him. Guess that makes _me_ clueless. For starters, I don't know why he goes by the name _Shotonoob_ if he's not a_ noob_ and doesn't even like _Shotokan_ all that much.
> 
> Oh, and if he doesn't do WC, why does he get so heatedly involved in debates on this sub-forum? Of course, _everybody's_ opinion is welcome. But if it's not your system, it's not worth getting worked up over...
> 
> And finally, all this talk about _kime. _That's not a term used in WC. _Fa-jin_ maybe. But from what I gather, kime is about tensing up at impact. Something I try to _avoid_. Maybe style neutral terms like _focus _and _power generation, short-power, _etc. would be helpful here?
> 
> Oh yeah... one other thing. Why do you put a back-slash between lines when you skip down to make another comment?
> \
> Yeah like that. Is it a personal typing style, a convention I'm not familiar with, or something special about your keyboard?
> 
> So, _Shoto, _how about a little clarification? _I'd_ sure appreciate it.


\
You've got defensive written all over you post....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> This is kime defined. Worth a moment of your time.
> 
> What is Kime in Karate? | KARATE by Jesse
> 
> It is not tensing. Not at all. It is relaxing one set of muscles and / or tendons at a very precise and specific distance while fully relaxing said muscles before instantly engaging different muscle to move in a different direction.
> 
> Usually in the opposite direction.
> To correctly chain punch requires kime.
> [edit]


\
Well tnx for acknowledging my '2-cents' worth of posts spurred "one" substantive reply on the subject.


----------



## JowGaWolf

TSDTexan said:


> I like what I see at this school... even if it is not orthodox wc.


They should spend some time conditioning their forearms and shins instead of using the protection on the forearms.  All of that training is going to go to waste if they ever had to use it in real life or even in a sporting event.  Conditioning is vital to any martial arts if anyone is planning on actually using it.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Danny T said:


> Every time I am in a 'whaattt' thought. Just what does that mean.
> "Shake it out, Shake it out" ???


\
"WE BUILD WARRIORS"



Danny T said:


> His "/ Good luck with that" is a simple insult to whomever it is directed. He is saying you don't the intelligence or knowledge to understand or be on his level of thought.


\
"LEADERSHIP / "DISCIPLINE" / "RESPECT"...


----------



## Danny T

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Pressure testing is more in line with sport training theory.
> \
> This statement about WC is horse crap.  This is a big selling, commercial marketing point to guys (& gals) who want to learn they can handle pressure.





ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I've always been in general agreement with same.  Never been acknowledged here @ MT though.....



You did write these did you not?




ShotoNoob said:


> \This argument have been hashed and rehashed by other posters separate from me on other threads.
> |
> Guess we need to sign up @ your school to get the real dope...



You don't want to discuss it why present it?
As to training at my school the door is open.  The training is good but we don't use dope. Or, there are several other very good schools in the area as well to choose from. We get along well and even recommend each other depending on what the person is wanting.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Danny T said:


> You did write these did you not?


\
Yes Danny, but you took my statements out of context of the full position statement I have written.
\
Pressure testing is valuable and is incorporated within the traditional karate curriculum component of kumite (largely).
\
To me, the position you took was in contradicion to the McDojo (er Dojang) Backfiss Miss YT vid where the TKD participants were basically practicing recreational karate.  A start would have been to acknowledge my support of your position from that post.  Instead, I got a bunch of wisecracks from an attempt to insert a little humor, not to mention stick to my guns.
\
The position I see you taking is that the training must be in this pressure testing environment.  Like Matt Thornton, somehow rehearsing techniques under pressure is superior to the TMA of 'air punching,' individual kata, isolated 1-steps, etc.  I can agree with you for practical purposes (for most who don't really want to commit to serious  MA training) and for the fact that a large or majority of the dues-paying public will agree & adopt the concept of pressure testing as a central theme.
\
By TMA theory, however, it still remains that other central principles are employed in building a successful traditional martial arts skill base, and pressure testing is only a minor part of that process...  So it one develops a pressure-testing training curriculum and calls it TMA 'cause  you include the physical techniques of Muay Thai, Wing Chun, etc.; what you are teachning is not TMA.  The TMA method, the curriculum does not revolve around 'pressure testing.'



Danny T said:


> You don't want to discuss it why present it?


I have been discussing the issues @ length.... serious answers have been sparse...


Danny T said:


> As to training at my school the door is open.  The training is good but we don't use dope. Or, there are several other very good schools in the area as well to choose from. We get along well and even recommend each other depending on what the person is wanting.


\
Well now you're talking like an instructor.  I caught a couple of your schools YT vids, and my YT impression is that your instructor group is very skilled.  Especially at adding the situational self defense training beyond the dojo walls.  So I think you are going to help a lot of people in that regard.
\
I'll post a Shotokan master YT vid supporting my position below....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TATSUYA NAKA from Movie High Kick Girl
\
I know this is a WC thread.  My point is WC is way more sophisticated than Shotokan karate.  Notwithstanding, the essential human TMA building blocks of both are the same.  My further point is that if you misconstrue the principles in a relatively simple TMA like Shotokan, how are you ever going to get WC which is karate x 50 in sophistication & difficulty?
\
T. Naka throws around a number of cryptic instructions and metaphors.  They are all relevant.  But what are the central principles of TMA... looking @ TSD maybe is clearer and more succinct.   So it's easy to get confused as to what is really going on.
\
The usual staged (choreographed) attack in the demo doing a lunge punch with opposing hand chambered at waist... then freeze.  The purpose of the uke is not to simulate a real time live attack.  The purpose of the uke is to simulate an attack in principle which then you respond in a precise & disciplined way also in principle, to defeat the attack.  The exercise is staged this way to isolate out the dynamic of an attack in principle and foster the development of your mentally disciplined response using / with principles....
\
The WC TMA base training is employing the same principles, yet on a much more advanced level mentally.  This is why huge reason you don't see WC in MMA, 'cause really good WC is way harder than karate to become accomplished at.  To get WC to real effectiveness by TMA standards is a very. very arduous and challenging task.... hence the probably of failure is much higher than training karate for MMA.
\
I'll follow up with a funny anectode about my very limited experience with Wing Chun.


----------



## ShotoNoob

FOLLOW UP RE WING CHUN EXPERIENCE.
\
I had visited a local CMA school many years ago.  The curriculum was very Mcdojo'y.  Yet the Head instructor at this local was a solid kung fu stylist.  This instructor was very well trained and his physique & body movement spoke volumes...  A couple other instructor level practitioners  there weren't bad.  At the time, I was mainly focused on traditional karate.  The Head instructor was highly critical of the Japanese style karate's and strongly discouraged me from joining up.  Any way I was able to join up.
\
One particular student there took an interest in me personally.  Turns out he had a black-belt in WC which he had attained from a school on the east coast, I think Boston.  He also felt the curriculum was very McDojo'y.  However, there wasn't much choice close to him and he was interested in a special Kung fu style that the school advertised for advanced students.  The WC Black-belt also had trained under another kung fu sifu in my area, but  that school had closed.  That school taught a more generic Shaolin style, which was what I was interested in.
\
The WC Black-Belt was also interested in full contact.... pressure testing.  So he invited me to his house to practice.  He agreed to train me what he knew about Northern Shaolin; why I was there...  Any way, I agreed to go a round of full contact with him to see the impact.  He was also into boxing,,, which he explained had advantages over kung fu.. in his mind (which I strongly disagreed).  Anyway, he put some protective equipment on me and then he started full contact.  Well at one point he punched me in the chest real (real) hard and the pain felt as if there wasn't any chest protector on me.  He had demonstrated a sneaky boxing type gambit.
\
I stopped him at that point.  You may say I was sissy for not going on.  Frankly, my safety and health were the reasons I was studying TMA... which was not what I had just experienced.  But let me tell you the bigger point, which my WC friend entirely missed in that attack.
\
In throwing that really debilitating punch by the sneaky boxing routine-- he left his head exposed a mile-wide open.  The real success from TMA comes from mental discipline... which I had developed to a high pretty level at that time.  Had I not been in exploration mode, but combat mode, he may have caused me some pain & physical shock from his boxing gambit.... he would also have been rendered unconscious from my power blow to his exposed head.  TMA is not some joke.  At that point, I saw no reason to continue full contact with him.  The WC Black-belt had enormous respect for my thought process.
\
To continue, the Mcdojo kung fu instructor kinda picked on my like here at MT 'cause of my karate style dedication, and because well, you know, I'm kinda a Laszlo kinda guy.  Privately, the WC Black-belt stuck up for me in class and usually requested to be my training partner.  Anyhow, the Head Instructor challenged me to spar one day, and i declined.  I told I don't like sparring... which prompted a few wisecracks (MT poster-like) from the instructor's buddies.  The Head Instructor let me off the hook, for now he said.  I told the WC-Black-belt I've never fight the instructor.
\
Well one of the classes, when I was absent, the Head Instructor challenged the WC-Black Belt to a spirited sparring match.  Well, the WC-Black Belt, who embraced full contact, eagerly took the challenge.  For one, he felt the Head Instructor was trying to prove himself to us 'dummy' new students.  Furthermore, the WC-Black-Belt respected my intelligence and felt the Head Instructor has insulted me on a number of occasions and even roughed me up a bit too much in one class (I still refused to spar.).
\
Well both the Head Instructor and the WC black-belt were eager to demonstrate to the class what they could do.  Problem for the Head Instructor, he didn't bother to ask about the background of the WC-Black-Belt who had attended a pretty good school, including pressure testing I'm sure....  The upshot is that the WC-Black-Belt unloaded some on the Head Instructor and sent the Instructor scrambling all over the floor trying to regain his composure.  Once the Head Instructor did that... he was able to take my WC-Black Belt co-student head on (with some struggle).  The WC Black-Belt recounted the surprised look on the Head Instructor's face @ the sparring match start... was beyond words....  After, the Head Instructor began to stop selling himself to us so hard following that WC Black-Belt match.
\
The moral with Laszlo-like me, is that I train to the kata standard in the Tatsuya Naka YT demo vid.  I don't require pressure testing the way others do because I will simply unload full body power driven through mental disciple that will end the fight very quickly... no matter how sneaky, clever your boxing... whatever gambit is.  The WC Black-Belt got this about me and we remained friends while he was stationed in my local.
\
I always wondered why he felt WC wasn't enough in it's own.
\
Now, someone here else can make fun of "shotonoob," it's really quite revealing... like my real life anecdote.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Huh? Sound like an attorney who needs more clients....



Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...



ShotoNoob said:


> I always wondered why he felt WC wasn't enough in it's own.



Find a "real" Wing Chun school and you will see that it is... you have 1 experience and you now feel you know all there is to know about Wing Chun.... alrighty then

And for the record...Traditional Chinese Martial arts, including Wing Chun....there are no belt ranks...have a nice day


----------



## TSDTexan

Xue Sheng said:


> Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...
> 
> 
> 
> Find a "real" Wing Chun school and you will see that it is... you have 1 experience and you now feel you know all there is to know about Wing Chun.... alrighty then
> 
> And for the record...Traditional Chinese Martial arts, including Wing Chun....there are no belt ranks...have a nice day



And traditional Old School Okinawan Martial Arts knew nothing of belt ranks until 1957 when Okinawan Karate Associations were formed by Okinawan Masters who had accepted "new" Japanese reforms. Belt rankings were and always have been a Japanese invention.

And Even CMA Wing Chun has been affected.:

International Wing Chun Organization Grading System -         					    International Wing Chun Organization

*The uniform and gradation system International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO
*
*International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO gradation system*


7 "basic" levels: 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ): 1 - 7 Cup ( Ji )
6 Master levels: 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ): 1 - 6 Duan
3 "advanced" Master levels: 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ): 7 - 9 Duan




*"Basic" levels - 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ): *

1 Cup - 學員一級 ( Hok Yuen Yat Kup ) — one green strip at the ends of the black belt — *|*
2 Cup - 學員二級 ( Hok Yuen Yee Kup ) — two green strips at the ends of the black belt — *| |*
3 Cup - 學員三級 ( Hok Yuen Sam Kup ) — one blue strip at the ends of the black belt — *|*
4 Cup - 學員四級 ( Hok Yuen Sae Kup ) — two blue strips at the ends of the black belt — *| |*
5 Cup - 學員五級 ( Hok Yuen Ng Kup ) — three blue strips at the ends of the black belt — *| | |*
6 Cup - 學員六級 ( Hok Yuen Luk Kup ) — one red strip at the ends of the black belt — *|*
7 Cup - 學員七級 ( Hok Yuen Tsat Kup ) — two red strips at the ends of the black belt — *| |*


*Master levels - 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ): *

1 Duan - 師範一段 ( Si Fan Yat Duan ) — red belt
2 Duan - 師範二段 ( Si Fan Yee Duan) — one yellow strip at the ends of the red belt — *|*
3 Duan - 師範三段 ( Si Fan Sam Duan ) — two yellow strips at the ends of the red belt — *| |*
4 Duan - 師範四段 ( Si Fan Sae Duan ) — three yellow strips at the ends of thered belt — *| | |*
5 Duan - 師範五段 ( Si Fan Ng Duan ) — a yellow stripe along thered belt — *—*
6 Duan - 師範六段 ( Si Fan Luk Duan ) — two yellow strips along thered belt — *=*


*"Advanced" Master levels- 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ): *

7 Duan - 師傅七段 ( Si fu Tsat Duan ) — Sifu - *Yellow belt*
8 Duan - 師傅八段 ( Si fu Bart Duan ) — Sifu - *Yellow belt *with black characters *Wing Chun* at the ends of the belt
9 Duan - 師傅九段 ( Si fu Kau Duan ) — Sifu - "Head of Organization" - *Yellow belt* with red characters *Wing Chun* at the ends of the belt


----------



## TSDTexan




----------



## wckf92

Xue Sheng said:


> ....there are no belt ranks...



This is my experience as well...no belt ranks...just get better or get hit a lot!


----------



## Xue Sheng

TSDTexan said:


> And traditional Old School Okinawan Martial Arts knew nothing of belt ranks until 1957 when Okinawan Karate Associations were formed by Okinawan Masters who had accepted "new" Japanese reforms. Belt rankings were and always have been a Japanese invention.
> 
> And Even CMA Wing Chun has been affected.:
> 
> International Wing Chun Organization Grading System -                                 International Wing Chun Organization
> 
> *The uniform and gradation system International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO*
> 
> *International Wing Chun Organization - IWCO gradation system*
> 
> 
> 7 "basic" levels: 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ): 1 - 7 Cup ( Ji )
> 6 Master levels: 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ): 1 - 6 Duan
> 3 "advanced" Master levels: 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ): 7 - 9 Duan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Basic" levels - 學員級 ( Hok Yuen Kup ): *
> 
> 1 Cup - 學員一級 ( Hok Yuen Yat Kup ) — one green strip at the ends of the black belt — *|*
> 2 Cup - 學員二級 ( Hok Yuen Yee Kup ) — two green strips at the ends of the black belt — *| |*
> 3 Cup - 學員三級 ( Hok Yuen Sam Kup ) — one blue strip at the ends of the black belt — *|*
> 4 Cup - 學員四級 ( Hok Yuen Sae Kup ) — two blue strips at the ends of the black belt — *| |*
> 5 Cup - 學員五級 ( Hok Yuen Ng Kup ) — three blue strips at the ends of the black belt — *| | |*
> 6 Cup - 學員六級 ( Hok Yuen Luk Kup ) — one red strip at the ends of the black belt — *|*
> 7 Cup - 學員七級 ( Hok Yuen Tsat Kup ) — two red strips at the ends of the black belt — *| |*
> 
> 
> *Master levels - 師範段 ( Si Fan Duan ): *
> 
> 1 Duan - 師範一段 ( Si Fan Yat Duan ) — red belt
> 2 Duan - 師範二段 ( Si Fan Yee Duan) — one yellow strip at the ends of the red belt — *|*
> 3 Duan - 師範三段 ( Si Fan Sam Duan ) — two yellow strips at the ends of the red belt — *| |*
> 4 Duan - 師範四段 ( Si Fan Sae Duan ) — three yellow strips at the ends of thered belt — *| | |*
> 5 Duan - 師範五段 ( Si Fan Ng Duan ) — a yellow stripe along thered belt — *—*
> 6 Duan - 師範六段 ( Si Fan Luk Duan ) — two yellow strips along thered belt — *=*
> 
> 
> *"Advanced" Master levels- 師傅段 ( Si Fu Duan ): *
> 
> 7 Duan - 師傅七段 ( Si fu Tsat Duan ) — Sifu - *Yellow belt*
> 8 Duan - 師傅八段 ( Si fu Bart Duan ) — Sifu - *Yellow belt *with black characters *Wing Chun* at the ends of the belt
> 9 Duan - 師傅九段 ( Si fu Kau Duan ) — Sifu - "Head of Organization" - *Yellow belt* with red characters *Wing Chun* at the ends of the belt



That's nice...and they are who exactly.

There is no one authority over Wing Chun that has set a belt ranking system. Belt ranks in CMA are purely a western influenced thing. There is no belt ranking system, as far as I know, out of any of Ip Man's students and I do not believe Ip Chun or Ip Chung do belt ranking. There are no blet raniing systems in Wing Chun in foshan either as far as I know and the one Wing Chun School I know about in Beijing does not have one either. My first sifu (student of Ip Ching) had no belt ranking system and my second set up one for his students but none of his teachers, as far as I know had one.

So the International Wing Chun Organization Grading System I simply am not taking seriously as a standard, sorry.

I hold with there are no belt ranking systems in traditional Wing Chun...


----------



## geezer

ShotoNoob said:


> You've got defensive written all over you post....



Odd. Most people find me mildly _offensive_. Of course in Wing Chun we prefer _simultaneous offense and defense!_


----------



## JowGaWolf

Xue Sheng said:


> That's nice...and they are who exactly.
> 
> There is no one authority over Wing Chun that has set a belt ranking system. Belt ranks in CMA are purely a western influenced thing. There is no belt ranking system, as far as I know, out of any of Ip Man's students and I do not believe Ip Chun or Ip Chung do belt ranking. There are no blet raniing systems in Wing Chun in foshan either as far as I know and the one Wing Chun School I know about in Beijing does not have one either. My first sifu (student of Ip Ching) had no belt ranking system and my second set up one for his students but none of his teachers, as far as I know had one.
> 
> So the International Wing Chun Organization Grading System I simply am not taking seriously as a standard, sorry.
> 
> I hold with there are no belt ranking systems in traditional Wing Chun...


In traditional hinese martial arts there is no "natural belt ranking system" however some traditional Chinese martial arts schools do play into the "belt ranking" system by using colored sash ranking for business purposes.  Westerners for some reason feel that they need a belt to represent their accomplishments or that a belt is the only way to tell who has the most experience.  In the U.S. a belted system brings in more customers than the average Traditional Chinese martial arts school. Unfortunately for many westerners they are too concerned with a belt color and that often is part of the reason why students get caught up in the McDojos and fake BJJ schools.  I understand that the owners have to pay the bills and a color sash brings in the customers and money so I don't hate on them as much as I would like to. lol.  I've seen CMA schools go out of business because they weren't going to buy into the color sash thing.


----------



## geezer

BTW all you WC guys... after watching that video by _TSDTexan_, what is your take on the Japanese concept _kime _as relating to the way you express your power when striking. Do you find that it relates directly to anything we do in WC ...or not?

I believe the description of _kime_ In "Western terms" used in that video was "a short isometric neuromuscular contraction". In our branch we generally _avoid_ any muscular contraction or "braking action" on the end of our punches Accordingly when "air-punching" we punch to full extension allowing the elbow to straighten. When bag hitting, we allow the bag to stop the punch, there is no instant of isometric contraction. So this seems different to me.

On the other hand, we do add upward wrist flexion as the punch reaches maximum penetration and release energy into the target. But this is essentially a forward jolt, not a tensing or momentary pulling back. Is it analogous to _kime_? It seems different to me ...but then I'm not a _karateka_. So what do I know. Any thoughts?


----------



## Xue Sheng

JowGaWolf said:


> In traditional hinese martial arts there is no "natural belt ranking system" however some traditional Chinese martial arts schools do play into the "belt ranking" system by using colored sash ranking for business purposes.  Westerners for some reason feel that they need a belt to represent their accomplishments or that a belt is the only way to tell who has the most experience.  In the U.S. a belted system brings in more customers than the average Traditional Chinese martial arts school. Unfortunately for many westerners they are too concerned with a belt color and that often is part of the reason why students get caught up in the McDojos and fake BJJ schools.  I understand that the owners have to pay the bills and a color sash brings in the customers and money so I don't hate on them as much as I would like to. lol.  I've seen CMA schools go out of business because they weren't going to buy into the color sash thing.



That is why I said it was a purely a western influenced thing


----------



## JowGaWolf

Xue Sheng said:


> That is why I said it was a purely a western influenced thing


 yep. exactly and westerners will be the ones who will cheapen the value of the colored belts because some schools give them out like candy.


----------



## TSDTexan

geezer said:


> BTW all you WC guys... after watching that video by _TSDTexan_, what is your take on the Japanese concept _kime _as relating to the way you express your power when striking. Do you find that it relates directly to anything we do in WC ...or not?
> 
> I believe the description of _kime_ In "Western terms" used in that video was "a short isometric neuromuscular contraction". In our branch we generally _avoid_ any muscular contraction or "braking action" on the end of our punches Accordingly when "air-punching" we punch to full extension allowing the elbow to straighten. When bag hitting, we allow the bag to stop the punch, there is no instant of isometric contraction. So this seems different to me.
> 
> On the other hand, we do add upward wrist flexion as the punch reaches maximum penetration and release energy into the target. But this is essentially a forward jolt, not a tensing or momentary pulling back. Is it analogous to _kime_? It seems different to me ...but then I'm not a _karateka_. So what do I know. Any thoughts?



"There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.


----------



## wckf92

WC's hands (and feet!  ) as I was taught are different from a Karateka's in that once launched away from our body/core...they are prepared for striking/impact anywhere along its trajectory. In other words, the structure behind the weapon is by design intended to be a threat while in motion, vice say the last few inches or so. Fighting is way too dynamic to always think your target will be in the desired impact area / range of your weapons...
But, may I suggest, that this "kime as it relates to WC" might make for a good separate thread????


----------



## geezer

TSDTexan said:


> "There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
> This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.



That rings true.

So then I take it _kime _doesn't necessarily involve that instant of tension at the end of each strike?


----------



## geezer

wckf92 said:


> But, may I suggest, that this "kime as it relates to WC" might make for a good separate thread????



Sounds good, but as I don't use the term, I couldn't really contribute much.


----------



## geezer

ShotoNoob said:


> Now, someone here else can make fun of "shotonoob,"....



Now that actually _does_ sound defensive.


...reminds me of these famous words, c.1962 ....


----------



## TSDTexan

geezer said:


> That rings true.
> 
> So then I take it _kime _doesn't necessarily involve that instant of tension at the end of each strike?


No. It simply means to fix a distance.

There shouldn't be any tension because there is no opposed muscles working against each other. "Braking, while under power".

With regard to striking, tension can only happen when you have opposing muscle or tendon groups both contracting at the same time. Tension = Tug of war.

Kime is to mentally decide or establish a set distance where your fist will stop.

You have to learn through striking how to actually hit that specific spot.

Done correctly group a muscles/tendons explosively cause the fist to travel to that target. But precisely an instant before arriving at the point past the set distance all Group A drivers disengage and cease power.

A fraction of that instant is total relaxation of group A. While at the same time a different group engages. Group B does not fight group A.
That would be tension.

When firing a strike into empty air.... group B is responsible for counteracting Inertial Forces caused by the punch.
Primarily to maintain balance, poise and structure.

When striking a solid target, power group B is for sinking the energy into the target without letting the strike become a push.

Punch retraction serves a number of functions.
I wont dive into punch retraction here...

But whether you want to send the energy the distance from the target's cheekbone to the back of his skull... or if you only want to send the energy only a few inches deep you will have to set a distance.  (Kime) either way.

Elbows are moved one direction by the biceps and the opposite by the triceps. Now kime shouldn't be about using one set in opposition to the other. Ever.





Every type muscle provides power by means of contraction.
But not all contractions are tension.

There are two methods of muscle contraction or said another way... muscle contractions can be described based on two variables: length and tension.

Doing bicep curls is using elongation/delongation. Or muscle length.


----------



## TSDTexan

geezer said:


> BTW all you WC guys... after watching that video by _TSDTexan_, what is your take on the Japanese concept _kime _as relating to the way you express your power when striking. Do you find that it relates directly to anything we do in WC ...or not?
> 
> I believe the description of _kime_ In "Western terms" used in that video was "a short isometric neuromuscular contraction". In our branch we generally _avoid_ any muscular contraction or "braking action" on the end of our punches Accordingly when "air-punching" we punch to full extension allowing the elbow to straighten. When bag hitting, we allow the bag to stop the punch, there is no instant of isometric contraction. So this seems different to me.
> 
> On the other hand, we do add upward wrist flexion as the punch reaches maximum penetration and release energy into the target. But this is essentially a forward jolt, not a tensing or momentary pulling back. Is it analogous to _kime_? It seems different to me ...but then I'm not a _karateka_. So what do I know. Any thoughts?



Re watch the video on the dancer. His kime was never about reversing a movement to go backward. Often his sudden stops instantly changed direction.


----------



## Jake104

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> abyss?  You mean you can't address my points....
> [edit]
> 
> \
> I have no idea what substance is in "phobias" post.  "True to roots yet sharpening techniques for combat?"  Again, thinking one is better because you've learned how to 'improve' WC?  So over-generalized.  Again, sounds like a marketing program,Like that YT WC vs. Boxer vid.  Phobius statement is so over-generalized that's adding what value?
> \
> Every TMA artist is trying to improve.  Every TMA artist is seeking to be effective in application.  There's this big myth that somehow American's in the 21st Century have devised something better than, some improvement to TMA.... as opposed to really understanding the historical Master's teachings....  Again, an effective marketing program, I'm sure.
> \
> Good luck with that....


????huh??? Yes I have no idea of what you speak??? You confuse me? Sometimes i think I agree or understand you, then you loose me? Sorry, but hopefully the feeling is mutual??


----------



## geezer

@*Jake104 *--I said pretty much the same thing a couple of pages back:




geezer said:


> I don't know. I might be interested in some of his points ...if only I could understand him. Guess that makes _me_ clueless...
> 
> ...So, _Shoto, _how about a little clarification? _I'd_ sure appreciate it.



All I got in return was this:



ShotoNoob said:


> \
> You've got defensive written all over you post....



I hope you get a more satisfying answer.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Then the ONLY appropriate response would be


----------



## ShotoNoob

Xue Sheng said:


> Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...


\
If you say so....


Xue Sheng said:


> Find a "real" Wing Chun school and you will see that it is... you have 1 experience and you now feel you know all there is to know about Wing Chun.... alrighty then


\
Putting words in my mouth.... never said that.



Xue Sheng said:


> And for the record...Traditional Chinese Martial arts, including Wing Chun....there are no belt ranks...have a nice day


\
Oh, and your experience speaks for all CMA schools....  Your first response fits yourself.





Xue Sheng said:


> Sounds like someone I should not take seriously...


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> This is my experience as well...no belt ranks...just get better or get hit a lot!


\
Yeah, who needs a manual or curriculum....


----------



## ShotoNoob

geezer said:


> Odd. Most people find me mildly _offensive_. Of course in Wing Chun we prefer _simultaneous offense and defense!_


\
Right, WC is much more economical in motion that my traditional karate style...  so I guess I should say defensively - offensive..?  Nah I'll stick with my original post....


----------



## ShotoNoob

TSDTexan said:


> "There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
> This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.


\
That would be my impression also....


----------



## ShotoNoob

Xue Sheng said:


> Then the ONLY appropriate response would be


\
Cartoons.  The mentality of your student population?  Right on....
\
Of course cartoons is better than using colored belts... an improvement your improvement over those other western schools....


----------



## ShotoNoob

geezer said:


> Now that actually _does_ sound defensive.
> 
> 
> ...reminds me of these famous words, c.1962 ....


\
Or it could mean "take the bag off your head..." let's see which one???
\
EDIT: ROFL
\
EDIT2: Tnx for hosting (acknowledging) my commentary....


----------



## wckf92

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Yeah, who needs a manual or curriculum....




Manuals or curriculums have nothing to do with "ranks"...


----------



## ShotoNoob

wckf92 said:


> Manuals or curriculums have nothing to do with "ranks"...


\
Brilliant. Do you do any thing other than find fault?
\
EDIT: What, no cartoon?
EDIT2: ...or read half the sentence...?


----------



## ShotoNoob

_I'm having so much fun, here's a super suggestion....  let's have that WC doesn't work against the boxer WC instructor I posted earlier; pair up with this karate-like WC stylist.... perhaps along the lines of the OP.  Whaty'd say?




\
Beats a cartoon, Danny T, wherever you went....
\
EDIT: 1st plus, no belt rank..._


----------



## geezer

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Cartoons...
> Of course cartoons is better than using colored belts... an improvement your improvement over those other western schools....



Cartoons are great, but I prefer _pancakes_ over colored belts. Have you ever trained under a 9th or 10th Pancake Master? They don't have to wear their pancakes. They show their pancakes in the way they move!


----------



## geezer

ShotoNoob said:


> _I'm having so much fun, here's a super suggestion....  let's have that WC doesn't work against the boxer WC instructor I posted earlier; pair up with this karate-like WC stylist.... perhaps along the lines of the OP.  Whaty'd say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



Normally I'm not a fan of "Master Wong" but something like this approach could work, especially if you are also good in the clinch and at grappling. It kind of reminds me of John (_Kung fu Wang_) Wang's "Rhino" or "Big Fist" entry. I'd like to get his opinion on this.


----------



## ShotoNoob

geezer said:


> Cartoons are great, but I prefer _pancakes_ over colored belts. Have you ever trained under a 9th or 10th Pancake Master? They don't have to wear their pancakes. They show their pancakes in the way they move!


\
Flattened me like a pancake...


----------



## ShotoNoob

geezer said:


> Normally I'm not a fan of "Master Wong" but something like this approach could work, especially if you are also good in the clinch and at grappling. It kind of reminds me of John Wang's "Rhino" or "Big Fist" entry. I'd like to get his opinion on this.


\
Well what I like about Master Wong is he harkens to a street fighting mentality.  He's also very candid about what can go wrong.  A reality tester of sorts....
\
I think also he gives a good recount of WC tactical principles, which again are more complex compared to traditional karate's as a whole.  For instance, he talks about WC @ distance as well as infighting.   That other instructor I posted vs. Mr. Experienced Boxer somehow had the notion that WC stand in a sort of limited space with a static guard.... hence essentially couldn't  close the distance on a boxer....  Master Wong dispels all than kind of rigid thinking nonsense.  Master Wong leverages off of tactical mobility, the way all TMA should.
\
Being a Laszlo kinda of fellow, Master Wong is a bit rough in his art for me.  Having said that, I think he provides a good preview window into the art, particularly given most aren't going to attain the Crane kung fu base style & strength which is very analogous to Bona-fide WC.
\
The OP talked about applied WC is almost karate.... Hey, MASTER WONG makes a great jumping off point for that theory or supposition, IMHO.
\
Master Wong has really grown on me over time.... I kinda like the guy....


----------



## ShotoNoob

I'm thinking of posting another vid, but let me say this for now.
\
Traditional karate is generally more physical & aggressive, direct in it's tactics like Tiger style kung fu.
\
Wing chun is more tactically diverse and angular, expressing a strong defense blended into offense.  Truly powerful WC is an internal energy powered style, analogous to Crane Kung Fu.
\
Of course these are broad, descriptive generalizations....  This is what my study of TMA has brought me to conclude....


----------



## geezer

ShotoNoob said:


> Master Wong has really grown on me over time.... I kinda like the guy....



Yeah, Wong is really entertaining, and he has some good ideas. And what you've been saying about karate and WC is worth considering. My WC is very different than the Shotokan taught down the street. But IMO there is absolutely a bridge between WC and old Okinawan Karate going all the way back to Yong Chun Bai He. And when taken to a very high level there are similarities. But don't tell anybody I said this. It's not a popular idea in many circles.

....Oh wait. This is a _public_ forum. Well, now I've stepped in it.


----------



## TSDTexan

geezer said:


> Normally I'm not a fan of "Master Wong" but something like this approach could work, especially if you are also good in the clinch and at grappling. It kind of reminds me of John (_Kung fu Wang_) Wang's "Rhino" or "Big Fist" entry. I'd like to get his opinion on this.



Sifu Wong is a little bit much on the dramatic.
I have some of his training video material.

I think there is better material out there.

There is jma karate which is nothing like solid WC.
This is the type of Karate that about everbody thinks of.

Then you got the old oki stuff that is cma based... and the further you go back the more cma it gets.
Uechi-Ryu was brought back and was 3 pangainoon kata/forms.
Goju_ryu totally is internal like WC. But I am seeing many WC heading to the hardside... wing chun is a hard soft.


----------



## TSDTexan

TSDTexan said:


> Sifu Wong is a little bit much on the dramatic.
> I have some of his training video material.
> 
> I think there is better material out there.
> 
> There is jma karate which is nothing like solid WC.
> This is the type of Karate that about everbody thinks of.
> 
> Then you got the old oki stuff that is cma based... and the further you go back the more cma it gets.
> Uechi-Ryu was brought back and was 3 pangainoon kata/forms.
> Goju_ryu totally is internal like WC. But I am seeing many WC heading to the hardside... wing chun is a hard soft.



I find my comment insufficient.
The primarty or the fundamental difference boils down to the method of generating power. And  what is done to deal with incoming energy / strike from an attacker.

The externalists see the body as the sum of its parts, cultivating the individual components into weapons through training such as iron palm/fist, strength and stamina training for muscles. And seemingly prefer to use force against force.

The soft style internalists generate power from the center of balance (dan tien), making use of the rotation and explosive energy of the body as a whole. And they direct large amounts of time and energy into body awareness, breathing, neigung and chi gung. They prefer to channel and redirect the attacker's energy aganist himself.


Seemingly or on a surface level, any martial art is on a continuum, and can be as hard or soft as the practioner does it.

But Qi/Ki/Chi is often used as an explanation in external as well as internal arts.
So to help be more specific about internalist/softies

The Neijia mailing list, which was the vehicle created by Mike Sigman in the late 1990s to promote serious development of the internal martial arts, defined the internal martial arts to be those that respected the six harmonies (Sigman 2012a, 2012b).

The list followed the classical definition of the six harmonies due to (Dai Longbang1750), a master of Xingyi:

_*External Harmonies*_


The hands harmonize with the feets.
The hips harmonize with the shoulders.
The elbows harmonize with the knees.
_*Internal Harmonies*_


The heart harmonizes with the intention.
The intention harmonizes with the Chi.
The Chi harmonizes with the movement.
For a good introduction into 6harmonies read
Internal Strength: Silk Reeling, aka Six Harmonies Movement

There are wing chun systems that ignore these things and some that dont ignore it.
But too many WC exponents don't have a handle on what makes them hard or soft. As a result, more are heading to what JMA Tag Karate is like as WC gains momentum and popularity.


Also... I have been following up on a translational miscommunication by us westerners of the terms "internal and external".

There is some evidence to indicate these terms were used to indicate foreign or domestic martial arts in China.
Home grown Taoist vs Import Shaolin  etc.

Wing Chun was started as and external,  but the Red Boat Era saw a lot of MMA like mixing in and stealing of technical and strategic stuff from other CMA arts moving it to the middle between Internal and external or Foreign Domestic art..


----------



## Xue Sheng

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> If you say so....



Yes, yes I do, because on the topic of Wing Chun, you are clueless, therefore not to be taken seriously



ShotoNoob said:


> Putting words in my mouth.... never said that.



How on earth is that putting words in your mouth. You apparently have a comprehension issue going on...or you are intentionally doing this and therefore fit the definition of a troll....just another reason to not take you seriously



ShotoNoob said:


> Oh, and your experience speaks for all CMA schools....  Your first response fits yourself.



Well if you are talking "Traditional" Chinese martial arts...then yes I am speaking for all CMA schools

I know more about "Traditional" Chinese martial arts school and have trained at more "traditional" schools and have been training in martial arts probably longer than you have been alive...or darn close to it..... more reasons to not take you seriously junior
So you are clueless....and not to be taken seriously......deal with it


----------



## Xue Sheng

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Cartoons.  The mentality of your student population?  Right on....
> \
> Of course cartoons is better than using colored belts... an improvement your improvement over those other western schools....



You got that wrong too, it's not a cartoon... and where did I ever say that you should not you colored belts, what I said was that there are no colored belts in traditional marital arts, thereby showing all who read this thread how wrong you are and how little you know about the topic

You're just another of the "know nothing troll infestation" that is infecting MT these days who liked to act like an expert on things they know nothing about and when your called on it you either deny or get insulting or try and redirect....again proving you are not to be taken seriously


----------



## yak sao

I think I prefer the tortilla cat in case you're keeping score.


----------



## wckf92

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Brilliant. Do you do any thing other than find fault?
> \
> EDIT: What, no cartoon?
> EDIT2: ...or read half the sentence...?



Oh FFS...WTF are you even talking about??? Do you have comprehension issues or are you just on here to show your high level of skill with the " \ " key?


----------



## geezer

yak sao said:


> I think I prefer the tortilla cat in case you're keeping score.



Traditional Chinese Martial Arts don't use pancakes or tortillas. They use those mushu crepes like you get at the Chinese carry-out. I couldn't find a picture of a Panda with a crepe on its head.


So, here's the best I could come up with. The seal of a Chinese McDojo ...er make that a _McKwoon:_





Does that say _gourmet?_ Really? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Or maybe go out for lunch.... Just tell 'em I'm out to lunch. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ !


----------



## Xue Sheng

geezer said:


> Traditional Chinese Martial Arts don't use pancakes or tortillas. They use those mushu crepes like you get at the Chinese carry-out. I couldn't find a picture of a Panda with a crepe on its head.
> 
> 
> So, here's the best I could come up with. The seal of a Chinese McDojo ...er make that a _McKwoon:_
> 
> View attachment 19596
> 
> Does that say _gourmet?_ Really? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Or maybe go out for lunch.... Just tell 'em I'm out to lunch. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ !



oh man...thanks.....now you got me thinking about scallion pancakes.... now I'm hungry.... and I don't have any in the house......DARN IT!!!


----------



## ShortBridge

Most of what is in the shared Applied Wing Chun video represents an aspect of fairly typical/traditional Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun training. It is not the entirety of how the lineage is taught. It appears that this particular school also teaches some kickboxing, MMA and kids classes and there is some evidence of that in the video, but most of the the drills are consistent with Duncan Leung Wing Chun. There is not legitimate question as to the providence of Sifu Leung's Wing Chun, that I've ever heard from within the broader Wing Chun community and I assure you that the principles are in tact, though they may not be visibly evident in these clips.

Duncan does prefer some harder training with pads and repeating patterns than some other families and that may not be right for everyone. The authenticity of it doesn't often come into question among the centrist Wing Chun branches. I realize that everyone is reacting to a YouTube clip and this is a good reason for traditional schools not to put their stuff on YouTube, but I wanted to share my familiarity with this type of training for anyone still interested in the original post. 

I would also disagree that "Applied Wing Chun is almost Karate". I occasionally train with some Gojo Ryu players and while I respect what they do and can see some similarities (between any two things, really), I find them quite different.

I have no personal familiarity with this particular school.


----------



## wckf92

ShortBridge said:


> Most of what is in the shared Applied Wing Chun video represents an aspect of fairly typical/traditional Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun training. It is not the entirety of how the lineage is taught. It appears that this particular school also teaches some kickboxing, MMA and kids classes and there is some evidence of that in the video, but most of the the drills are consistent with Duncan Leung Wing Chun. There is not legitimate question as to the providence of Sifu Leung's Wing Chun, that I've ever heard from within the broader Wing Chun community and I assure you that the principles are in tact, though they may not be visibly evident in these clips.
> 
> Duncan does prefer some harder training with pads and repeating patterns than some other families and that may not be right for everyone. The authenticity of it doesn't often come into question among the centrist Wing Chun branches. I realize that everyone is reacting to a YouTube clip and this is a good reason for traditional schools not to put their stuff on YouTube, but I wanted to share my familiarity with this type of training for anyone still interested in the original post.
> 
> I would also disagree that "Applied Wing Chun is almost Karate". I occasionally train with some Gojo Ryu players and while I respect what they do and can see some similarities (between any two things, really), I find them quite different.
> 
> I have no personal familiarity with this particular school.



Awesome post Shortbridge!


----------



## ShotoNoob

Xue Sheng said:


> You got that wrong too, it's not a cartoon... and where did I ever say that you should not you colored belts, what I said was that there are no colored belts in traditional marital arts, thereby showing all who read this thread how wrong you are and how little you know about the topic
> 
> You're just another of the "know nothing troll infestation" that is infecting MT these days who liked to act like an expert on things they know nothing about and when your called on it you either deny or get insulting or try and redirect....again proving you are not to be taken seriously


\
Look @ your post... the shoe fits....


----------



## Xue Sheng

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Look @ your post... the shoe fits....



Yup, you're a troll.....maybe you will understand better if I add
\
And you are not worth wasting my time on any longer junior
\


----------



## Chris Parker

TSDTexan said:


> No. It simply means to fix a distance.



Hmm, I've never come across anything like that as a definition of kime before… 

"Kime" (決め) comes from "kimeru", and basically means "to decide" (Judo's Kime no Kata are the "forms of decision/decisive action")… I suppose it could be applied to deciding upon/fixing a distance… but again, not something I've ever come across before.



TSDTexan said:


> There shouldn't be any tension because there is no opposed muscles working against each other. "Braking, while under power".



Kime is often used to refer to "focus, precision (of action), a decisive movement", and the "snapping" of the gi is often seen as an indication of proper kime… as in many (most) arts, this is achieved by a sudden application of tension throughout the striking limb at the moment of impact… so there should absolutely be tension at that point (just not in the surrounding moments). In sword arts, we refer to this as te no uchi (pretty literally: inside the hands), and it's essential if you want to be able to transfer power without losing your weapon. In unarmed striking arts, it's a similar idea… the tension is to transfer power while not damaging yourself at the same time.



TSDTexan said:


> With regard to striking, tension can only happen when you have opposing muscle or tendon groups both contracting at the same time. Tension = Tug of war.



Well, yeah, that's how tension is achieved in the body… that doesn't mean that it isn't applied… 



TSDTexan said:


> Kime is to mentally decide or establish a set distance where your fist will stop.



Er… huh? No, that's not the way that the term is applied at all… the closest is that some systems use the term "kime" to refer to specific targeting (kyusho)….



TSDTexan said:


> You have to learn through striking how to actually hit that specific spot.



Which is about targeting, not distance… of course, if your distance is off, your targeting will be as well, but they're still two separate concepts.



TSDTexan said:


> Done correctly group a muscles/tendons explosively cause the fist to travel to that target. But precisely an instant before arriving at the point past the set distance all Group A drivers disengage and cease power.
> 
> A fraction of that instant is total relaxation of group A. While at the same time a different group engages. Group B does not fight group A.
> That would be tension.



Honestly, I think you have that backwards… during the execution of the strike, you have one group of muscles driving the strike forward, without opposition from the opposing group (otherwise you're too tense during the strike, which will rob it of power, speed, and more), with tension being applied on impact to avoid your striking hand crumpling and injuring yourself. Being tense during, and relaxed on impact would result in kinda the opposite of an ideal strike… 



TSDTexan said:


> When firing a strike into empty air.... group B is responsible for counteracting Inertial Forces caused by the punch.
> Primarily to maintain balance, poise and structure.
> 
> When striking a solid target, power group B is for sinking the energy into the target without letting the strike become a push.



I don't quite follow what you're meaning by "Group A" and "Group B" here… can you give anatomically accurate examples? Cause this doesn't seem to quite make sense to me… 



TSDTexan said:


> Punch retraction serves a number of functions.
> I wont dive into punch retraction here…



Okay.



TSDTexan said:


> But whether you want to send the energy the distance from the target's cheekbone to the back of his skull... or if you only want to send the energy only a few inches deep you will have to set a distance.  (Kime) either way.



Er… okay… kime as in focus, sure… 



TSDTexan said:


> Elbows are moved one direction by the biceps and the opposite by the triceps. Now kime shouldn't be about using one set in opposition to the other. Ever.
> View attachment 19592



Again, I'm going to say that this is not the common application of the term "Kime"… yes, tension is commonly a part of kime… which can (and often does) involve muscle groups working against each other… so… gonna disagree again.



TSDTexan said:


> Every type muscle provides power by means of contraction.
> But not all contractions are tension.



Getting a bit into semantics, but okay… 



TSDTexan said:


> There are two methods of muscle contraction or said another way... muscle contractions can be described based on two variables: length and tension.
> 
> Doing bicep curls is using elongation/delongation. Or muscle length.



Not really sure what this has to do with much, honestly… I mean, you start off by saying that kime refers to "setting distance" (again, I've never come across that as a definition or application of the term at all), then talk about muscle groups and tension (which is closer to the actual application of the term)… taking it to how muscles work in bicep curls. For the record, there can be plenty of kime in things like bicep curls, though… 

But the thing that really got me reading (and answering) this thread is the following (and all other related posts):



ShotoNoob said:


> Yeah, well once one learns & trains real TMA, then one can criticize, competently.



ShotoNoob. 

I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.

You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.

Good luck with that.


----------



## TSDTexan

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I've never come across anything like that as a definition of kime before…
> 
> "Kime" (決め) comes from "kimeru", and basically means "to decide" (Judo's Kime no Kata are the "forms of decision/decisive action")… I suppose it could be applied to deciding upon/fixing a distance… but again, not something I've ever come across before.
> 
> 
> 
> Kime is often used to refer to "focus, precision (of action), a decisive movement", and the "snapping" of the gi is often seen as an indication of proper kime… as in many (most) arts, this is achieved by a sudden application of tension throughout the striking limb at the moment of impact… so there should absolutely be tension at that point (just not in the surrounding moments). In sword arts, we refer to this as te no uchi (pretty literally: inside the hands), and it's essential if you want to be able to transfer power without losing your weapon. In unarmed striking arts, it's a similar idea… the tension is to transfer power while not damaging yourself at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yeah, that's how tension is achieved in the body… that doesn't mean that it isn't applied…
> 
> 
> 
> Er… huh? No, that's not the way that the term is applied at all… the closest is that some systems use the term "kime" to refer to specific targeting (kyusho)….
> 
> 
> 
> Which is about targeting, not distance… of course, if your distance is off, your targeting will be as well, but they're still two separate concepts.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I think you have that backwards… during the execution of the strike, you have one group of muscles driving the strike forward, without opposition from the opposing group (otherwise you're too tense during the strike, which will rob it of power, speed, and more), with tension being applied on impact to avoid your striking hand crumpling and injuring yourself. Being tense during, and relaxed on impact would result in kinda the opposite of an ideal strike…
> 
> 
> 
> I don't quite follow what you're meaning by "Group A" and "Group B" here… can you give anatomically accurate examples? Cause this doesn't seem to quite make sense to me…
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> Er… okay… kime as in focus, sure…
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm going to say that this is not the common application of the term "Kime"… yes, tension is commonly a part of kime… which can (and often does) involve muscle groups working against each other… so… gonna disagree again.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a bit into semantics, but okay…
> 
> 
> 
> Not really sure what this has to do with much, honestly… I mean, you start off by saying that kime refers to "setting distance" (again, I've never come across that as a definition or application of the term at all), then talk about muscle groups and tension (which is closer to the actual application of the term)… taking it to how muscles work in bicep curls. For the record, there can be plenty of kime in things like bicep curls, though…
> 
> But the thing that really got me reading (and answering) this thread is the following (and all other related posts):
> 
> 
> 
> ShotoNoob.
> 
> I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.
> 
> You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.
> 
> Good luck with that.



Yes Shihan Chris-sama....
It means to decide. In fact I pointed that out.... when I used that word "decide".

Gi snapping has nothing to do with Kime. Jesse Enkamp... dealt with that... I linked that blog article already. 

But of course you don't accept the authority of Jesse as an expert on the subject matter of Karate.  Because you seemingly overruled a determination made by him, in a previous conversation between us, on a different thread.
I think him far more authoritative on the subject of Karate then you.  And also on this issue as well.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Jake104 said:


> Yes you can too. Everybody is welcome. All traditional Martial arts can be combative (I think?). Just train realistically. *Clothing*, knives and face painting is all optional.



I think I'm going to have to open my own clothing-optional school of Combat BJJ. I'm sure it will be a big hit.



Xue Sheng said:


> Then the ONLY appropriate response would be





Chris Parker said:


> ShotoNoob.
> 
> I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.
> 
> You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.
> 
> Good luck with that.



ShotoNoob does have his own highly idiosyncratic definitions of terms like TMA, discipline, kime, and so on. (Not to mention his own unique approach to punctuation and capitalization.) I've tried in the past to ask questions to determine exactly what he means when he uses these terms so we can at least discuss his underlying concepts without getting too hung up on the terminology. Unfortunately he seems to be unable to explain his ideas coherently enough for me to really engage with them. Based on that experience I would have to say that he's not even wrong.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I've never come across anything like that as a definition of kime before…
> 
> "Kime" (決め) comes from "kimeru", and basically means "to decide" (Judo's Kime no Kata are the "forms of decision/decisive action")… I suppose it could be applied to deciding upon/fixing a distance… but again, not something I've ever come across before.
> 
> 
> 
> Kime is often used to refer to "focus, precision (of action), a decisive movement", and the "snapping" of the gi is often seen as an indication of proper kime… as in many (most) arts, this is achieved by a sudden application of tension throughout the striking limb at the moment of impact… so there should absolutely be tension at that point (just not in the surrounding moments). In sword arts, we refer to this as te no uchi (pretty literally: inside the hands), and it's essential if you want to be able to transfer power without losing your weapon. In unarmed striking arts, it's a similar idea… the tension is to transfer power while not damaging yourself at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yeah, that's how tension is achieved in the body… that doesn't mean that it isn't applied…
> 
> 
> 
> Er… huh? No, that's not the way that the term is applied at all… the closest is that some systems use the term "kime" to refer to specific targeting (kyusho)….
> 
> 
> 
> Which is about targeting, not distance… of course, if your distance is off, your targeting will be as well, but they're still two separate concepts.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I think you have that backwards… during the execution of the strike, you have one group of muscles driving the strike forward, without opposition from the opposing group (otherwise you're too tense during the strike, which will rob it of power, speed, and more), with tension being applied on impact to avoid your striking hand crumpling and injuring yourself. Being tense during, and relaxed on impact would result in kinda the opposite of an ideal strike…
> 
> 
> 
> I don't quite follow what you're meaning by "Group A" and "Group B" here… can you give anatomically accurate examples? Cause this doesn't seem to quite make sense to me…
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> Er… okay… kime as in focus, sure…
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm going to say that this is not the common application of the term "Kime"… yes, tension is commonly a part of kime… which can (and often does) involve muscle groups working against each other… so… gonna disagree again.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a bit into semantics, but okay…
> 
> 
> 
> Not really sure what this has to do with much, honestly… I mean, you start off by saying that kime refers to "setting distance" (again, I've never come across that as a definition or application of the term at all), then talk about muscle groups and tension (which is closer to the actual application of the term)… taking it to how muscles work in bicep curls. For the record, there can be plenty of kime in things like bicep curls, though…
> 
> But the thing that really got me reading (and answering) this thread is the following (and all other related posts):
> 
> 
> 
> ShotoNoob.
> 
> I've watched your posts since you came along here… and I'm going to say this bluntly.
> 
> You have no idea of what traditional martial arts are. You have your own perspective, which is skewed and highly inaccurate. Your idea of "real TMA" is highly suspect… and this is coming from someone who trains (and teaches) arts far more "traditional" than anything you've ever dealt with. Trust me on that. Your posts are so littered with false beliefs and dramatic condescension towards everyone else's training that it borders on trolling… or pure delusion.
> 
> Good luck with that.


\
Your posts (on the TMA principles)  generally make a lot sense to me.... 
\
Good luck with that....


----------



## geezer

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think I'm going to have to open my own clothing-optional school of Combat BJJ. I'm sure it will be a big hit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ShotoNoob does have his own highly idiosyncratic definitions of terms like TMA, discipline, kime, and so on. (Not to mention his own unique approach to punctuation and capitalization.) I've tried in the past to ask questions to determine exactly what he means when he uses these terms so we can at least discuss his underlying concepts without getting too hung up on the terminology. Unfortunately he seems to be unable to explain his ideas coherently enough for me to really engage with them. Based on that experience I would have to say that he's not even wrong.



Sorry to continue this tangent Tony, but I want to thank you for that link to "not even wrong". What a great expression! Following up I came across another similar expression that often seems applicable:

http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/b/b6/Fractal-wrongness.jpg

And not to be arrogant, I've often gone there myself. Like trying to discuss pro-hockey with my friends back at at college ...when I didn't even know the rules. (I just watched for the fights).

Oh... and @ _Shotonoob, _thanks for wishing us all luck. Now I'm sorry if we've been harsh or critical. Honestly, no hard feelings. Just shake it off! 
\
And...Good luck with that!


----------



## Danny T

Tony Dismukes said:


> not even wrong.


Tony, this is excellent.
Have crossed this threshold a time or two... and have run across the same in many 'discussions'. Now have a great way to express such to someone who does the same.


----------



## JowGaWolf

TSDTexan said:


> "There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."


There are always over committed strikes from practitioners. Most if not all fighting systems will tell you not to over commit but the fighter will still do so from time to time.  Wing Chun students often over commit in taking the center-line. They also over commit with trying to land the "40 hit punch flood combo" which takes away their root.  Students of every fighting system are at risk for over committing in some shape or form.  WC students are also over commits with the punches which gets them into trouble when it comes to defending against take downs.


----------



## Chris Parker

TSDTexan said:


> Yes Shihan Chris-sama....
> It means to decide. In fact I pointed that out.... when I used that word "decide".



Firstly, you can leave off the passive-aggressive attitude.

Secondly, no, you didn't. The only mention of the term "decide" in any of your posts is this:


TSDTexan said:


> Kime is to mentally decide or establish a set distance where your fist will stop.



You don't state that it means "to decide", you say that it refers to "mentally decid(ing)… a set distance". And there is absolutely nothing in the concept of kime, the application of the term, or any of the sources and links you provided that even hints at such a thing.

You know… maybe I was a bit too subtle earlier when I said that I hadn't come across that usage of the term kime in relation to distance… I was trying to be less overt considering your recent rant against me. I'll stop that now.

You are, without doubt or second consideration, completely wrong in your definition of kime. The fact that members who have no major exposure to Japanese systems are thinking that you are correct is enough for me to come along and point out that, frankly, you are, once again, wrong. I heartily recommend that Geezer and others who think you were accurate look further int o the topic.



TSDTexan said:


> Gi snapping has nothing to do with Kime. Jesse Enkamp... dealt with that... I linked that blog article already.



I'd already read Jesse's blog post, but let's look at it again, shall we? Here it is again: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/kime-putting-the-nail-in-the-coffin/

So, what's said there? Well… it's pointed out that the term is a derivative of the jisho form "kimeru" (決める), which refers commonly to deciding, fixing, or setting (in place). However, it's also pointed out that the term "(probably breaks) 10 or 12 different world records in terms of ambiguity"… highlighting that, as with much of the Japanese language, the meaning changes (in cases, quite dramatically) based on the context.

Next, Jesse goes through a range of comments he's come across that he says aren't representative of kime… all of which actually focus on a very similar interpretation of the concept; namely that the concept of kime is related to the execution of a powerful strike. Jesse disagrees… interestingly without disagreeing with any of it… by saying that kime is something that can be seen in any technique at all (well, yeah)… and that it is found specifically when you tense certain muscles. Which is the opposite of your claim that tensing is never kime… and has absolutely nothing to do with distance. 

But here's the thing… Jesse is still off. Kime is not a single action, or event. It's a concentration of your entire effort… the focus put into the strike… how you co-ordinate your body… how you breath… what all of your muscles are doing, not just the antagonists… and is often checked/represented by exactly what Jesse is saying kime isn't. In a way, he's right… such external observations aren't kime itself, per se… you can only know yourself if you have kime or not… but they are an indication.



TSDTexan said:


> But of course you don't accept the authority of Jesse as an expert on the subject matter of Karate.


 
I'd consider him a flawed source, honestly. He tends to rely on his own ideas over learning the actual history and definitions in places… which can be very interesting, but can also be rather misplaced.



TSDTexan said:


> Because you seemingly overruled a determination made by him, in a previous conversation between us, on a different thread.



On his ideas of what made a system, yeah.



TSDTexan said:


> I think him far more authoritative on the subject of Karate then you.  And also on this issue as well.



You're free to think that. Simply going through his "about" page raises a couple of red flags, inaccurate terminology and grasp on Japanese martial concepts and history, and a few other things… of course, the major point here is that nothing Jesse says, nor in the linked video you posted, actually supports anything you've said.

As said, I was being kind earlier. I'm a bit past that now. So… 



TSDTexan said:


> "There are no (over) commited strikes in wing chun."
> This principle means a distance has been set for the maximum for a given strike. This is the essence of kime.



That is absolutely not the "essence of kime", as distance has absolutely nothing to do with it.



geezer said:


> That rings true.
> 
> So then I take it _kime _doesn't necessarily involve that instant of tension at the end of each strike?



Yes, an instant of tension at the completion of the strike (the decisive moment that the strike is focused on, on impact) is a fundamental external indication of good kime.

Right, that's done, I hope.



ShotoNoob said:


> Your posts (on the TMA principles)  generally make a lot sense to me....
> \
> Good luck with that....



Er… okay. You make no sense to me, or, it seems, anyone else here. And you really do show no clue about anything to do with actual traditional martial arts… at all.


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## TSDTexan

“_What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."_
—James Downey, _Billy Madison_


Ummm.... whatever Professor. You telling me I am wrong means squat really. You are just a voice on the Internet. And are as accurate as a Wikipedia page as far as I am concerned.

Simply because of the way you treat people here, I dislike, discount and disbelieve anything you say.
T.O.S. prevents me from telling you how I really feel about you, and where you should go.
And because I don't want to get this tread locked, I am going to behave.

So I will leave it at this...
No. You are wrong.

And between me and you... its the end of the discussion.
And I am now putting you on my ignore list, as the attitude in your words are an offense to my eyes.


Good day Sir.

You are a martial talk mentor?......
それはすごいですね

Instead of just linking Jesse as I have done previously, or attempting to paraphrase him as you have (poorly I might add) I will let him speak for himself.

Dispite your ridiculous ad hominem attacks on him... he is a far greater authority on karate than you are.

And the Gi snapping reference to Kime you made proves it.

Jesse actually says that is unintelligent... a polite way of saying stupid.

In context, he is saying the Kime is Gi Snap position is stupid. I say people who say stupid things, look like they got mustard and ketsup on thier white shirt.

Here is Jesse, all the remaining words in this post are his.

_Probably breaking at least ten or twelve different kinds of world records in terms of ambiguity, kime is a word that, in the Western world of Karate, is as popular as it is misunderstood. But that’s not the case in Japan. On that sunny day in Okinawa, when my friend asked me “what date I had set for my departure”, he used the word kime like it was nothing. Just a word among words.

To him it simply meant “fix“, or “set”.

As in fixing, or setting, a date.

And that’s exactly what my dictionary tells me:

Kime(ru) – ichidan verb; transitive verb – to decide, fix or set.

Yet, when I look around the web, I find the word kime being repeatedly misused. And frankly speaking, I don’t know why.

Maybe we are a bit afraid that some of the exoticism of Karate will be lost if we fully understand the terms we use? The definitions of kime vary, and it surprises me that even some of the most famous Western historians (no names mentioned) doesn’t seem to understand the word they are trying to explain.

Look:

“It is the ability to rapidly dump power into the target which is ‘kime’.”

Or how about:

“The point is you accelerate into the target and you kime focuses the energy inside [the target] rather than through. Very difficult to explain in words […]”

Or:

“I tend to think that ” kime ” is just the best someone could come up with describe what the rest of us would call a serious whack with intent.”

Here’s another:

“To me it [kime] is about “shocking” the opponent. Applying your maximum force so quickly that the opponent cannot adjust to the impact either consciously or unconsciously.”

Other legendary explanations involve *“that snap of the gi at the end of a punch”* or “destructive force/power”. Some people even claim:

*“Use the snap [of the gi] as a barometer of kime, or martial arts focus”*

How about that?

Even the almighty Wikipedia says kime means “power, and/or focus” and even “attacking a pressure point” (!)

And the incredibly fun, yet sad, thing is… that it’s all wrong.

These above quotes are for the most very intelligent and good *(except that snap barometer thing maybe!)*, and they all apply to Karate in one way or another, but it’s not kime.

Sorry.

Somebody pulled a fast one on you.

You are better off using other terms, like “chinkuchi” or “kimochi” for even more mysterious Okinawan Karate words, or why not simply the Japanese “zentai ryoku” – full body power?

The coach of the Japanese national team uses it frequently.

But then again, it’s not quite as catchy…

So, to sum it up, kime is not any of the following:


Impressive, yes? Kime, no.

*snap of the gi*
serious intent to whack somebody
full commitment to a strike
shocking the opponent
dumping power into a target
destructive force/power
a magical ingredient that makes you a master_


----------



## TSDTexan

TSDTexan said:


> “_What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."_
> —James Downey, _Billy Madison_
> 
> 
> Ummm.... whatever Professor. You telling me I am wrong means squat really. You are just a voice on the Internet. And are as accurate as a Wikipedia page as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Simply because of the way you treat people here, I dislike, discount and disbelieve anything you say.
> T.O.S. prevents me from telling you how I really feel about you, and where you should go.
> And because I don't want to get this tread locked, I am going to behave.
> 
> So I will leave it at this...
> No. You are wrong.
> 
> And between me and you... its the end of the discussion.
> And I am now putting you on my ignore list, as the attitude in your words are an offense to my eyes.
> 
> 
> Good day Sir.
> 
> You are a martial talk mentor?......
> それはすごいですね
> 
> Instead of just linking Jesse as I have done previously, or attempting to paraphrase him as you have (poorly I might add) I will let him speak for himself.
> 
> Dispite your ridiculous ad hominem attacks on him... he is a far greater authority on karate than you are.
> 
> And the Gi snapping reference to Kime you made proves it.
> 
> Jesse actually says that is unintelligent... a polite way of saying stupid.
> 
> In context, he is saying the Kime is Gi Snap position is stupid. I say people who say stupid things, look like they got mustard and ketsup on thier white shirt.
> 
> Here is Jesse, all the remaining words in this post are his.
> 
> _Probably breaking at least ten or twelve different kinds of world records in terms of ambiguity, kime is a word that, in the Western world of Karate, is as popular as it is misunderstood. But that’s not the case in Japan. On that sunny day in Okinawa, when my friend asked me “what date I had set for my departure”, he used the word kime like it was nothing. Just a word among words.
> 
> To him it simply meant “fix“, or “set”.
> 
> As in fixing, or setting, a date.
> 
> And that’s exactly what my dictionary tells me:
> 
> Kime(ru) – ichidan verb; transitive verb – to decide, fix or set.
> 
> Yet, when I look around the web, I find the word kime being repeatedly misused. And frankly speaking, I don’t know why.
> 
> Maybe we are a bit afraid that some of the exoticism of Karate will be lost if we fully understand the terms we use? The definitions of kime vary, and it surprises me that even some of the most famous Western historians (no names mentioned) doesn’t seem to understand the word they are trying to explain.
> 
> Look:
> 
> “It is the ability to rapidly dump power into the target which is ‘kime’.”
> 
> Or how about:
> 
> “The point is you accelerate into the target and you kime focuses the energy inside [the target] rather than through. Very difficult to explain in words […]”
> 
> Or:
> 
> “I tend to think that ” kime ” is just the best someone could come up with describe what the rest of us would call a serious whack with intent.”
> 
> Here’s another:
> 
> “To me it [kime] is about “shocking” the opponent. Applying your maximum force so quickly that the opponent cannot adjust to the impact either consciously or unconsciously.”
> 
> Other legendary explanations involve *“that snap of the gi at the end of a punch”* or “destructive force/power”. Some people even claim:
> 
> *“Use the snap [of the gi] as a barometer of kime, or martial arts focus”*
> 
> How about that?
> 
> Even the almighty Wikipedia says kime means “power, and/or focus” and even “attacking a pressure point” (!)
> 
> And the incredibly fun, yet sad, thing is… that it’s all wrong.
> 
> These above quotes are for the most very intelligent and good *(except that snap barometer thing maybe!)*, and they all apply to Karate in one way or another, but it’s not kime.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Somebody pulled a fast one on you.
> 
> You are better off using other terms, like “chinkuchi” or “kimochi” for even more mysterious Okinawan Karate words, or why not simply the Japanese “zentai ryoku” – full body power?
> 
> The coach of the Japanese national team uses it frequently.
> 
> But then again, it’s not quite as catchy…
> 
> So, to sum it up, kime is not any of the following:
> 
> 
> Impressive, yes? Kime, no.
> 
> *snap of the gi*
> serious intent to whack somebody
> full commitment to a strike
> shocking the opponent
> dumping power into a target
> destructive force/power
> a magical ingredient that makes you a master_




Nice to see you TEZ3. I see your name in the popup on the list button next to your disagree mark.
Since I have no interest in anything you say or might say, I wont be taking you off of my ignore list. I am sure you are here to support your bosom buddy. 
But ya... I am over all that.

I am glad to see you are still haunting the premises. I will take no further thought of you, other than to to say "peace, wellness be upon you and yours".

G'DAY TO YA.


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## Grenadier

*Admin's note: 
*

Thread locked, pending staff review.


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