# I Guess TSD is Okinawan-based After All



## dancingalone (Sep 14, 2011)

In the past I have mentioned that IMO Tang Soo Do's heritage seems closer to Japanese karate than Okinawan karate to me in terms of actual concept and execution, aside from the less important lineage link.  After last night, my opinion is evolving.

Had a new student start last night at my Goju-ryu karate dojang.  He holds a lower dan in Tang Soo Do.  As I was explaining and demonstrating certain basics to him, it became apparent that he was already very familiar with the ideas of rooting and swallowing and redirecting energy, even though his physical expression of them were different from mine.  I commend his past sa bom.  He had very good instruction from him and I look forward to teaching him what I know to complement what he has received already.


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## clfsean (Sep 14, 2011)

Hmmm... you ought to check out the principles practiced in some CMAs of sink/spit/float/swallow...


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## DSMartialArts (Sep 14, 2011)

I took Tang Soo Do Muk Do Kwan for about 2 years and attended a level of Green Belt. I found it closer to chinese arts with a lot of circular motions. I am sure it has infulence from Japan, China and okinawa like most Korean arts. Korea was occupied by both the China and Japan at some point in the country's history. There is different styles of Tang Soo Do so it is possible the style your student studied was Okinawan influenced.


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## dancingalone (Sep 14, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Hmmm... you ought to check out the principles practiced in some CMAs of sink/spit/float/swallow...



It's definitely on my radar.  I've spent some time within Yang tai chi chuan and some cha and baji as well, so I have ample respect for the CMAs.


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## dancingalone (Sep 14, 2011)

DSMartialArts said:


> I took Tang Soo Do Muk Do Kwan for about 2 years and attended a level of Green Belt. I found it closer to chinese arts with a lot of circular motions. I am sure it has infulence from Japan, China and okinawa like most Korean arts. Korea was occupied by both the China and Japan at some point in the country's history. There is different styles of Tang Soo Do so it is possible the style your student studied was Okinawan influenced.



It all depends on the teacher I suppose like any other art.  I've seen plenty of TSD that is run-of-the-mill hard style stuff, unfortunately.


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## clfsean (Sep 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It's definitely on my radar.  I've spent some time within Yang tai chi chuan and some cha and baji as well, so I have ample respect for the CMAs.



Ah... if you've done cha & baji, you've definitely come across them. Probably not in the same name, but definitely in function.


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## Omar B (Sep 14, 2011)

I would love to find one of these hard style TSD schools.  I admire their form, but from a Kyokushin and Seido background I wish they had more contact.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 14, 2011)

Omar B said:


> I would love to find one of these hard style TSD schools.  I admire their form, but from a Kyokushin and Seido background I wish they had more contact.


Contact isnt Necessary, so long as some Serious Time is spent Teaching Ranging.
Bare in Mind, im not Criticising your Viewpoint - Just offering some Retrospect.


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## Omar B (Sep 15, 2011)

Proper form and all that is all well and good.  But in martial training one should hit and be hit.  Can't tell you how many karateka and other thoretical fighters I've seen break fingers, knuckles, toes and more striking.  Or those who lose their crap when actually struck for real.I love a lot about TSD, I would love to see it trained in a more engaged manner closer to knockdown karate or boxing.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 15, 2011)

Omar B said:


> Proper form and all that is all well and good.  But in martial training one should hit and be hit.  Can't tell you how many karateka and other thoretical fighters I've seen break fingers, knuckles, toes and more striking.  Or those who lose their crap when actually struck for real.I love a lot about TSD, I would love to see it trained in a more engaged manner closer to knockdown karate or boxing.


In your Opinion, Yes. But there are many things you cannot Practise against another Persons Body.
TSD is neither Boxing, nor Knockdown Karate.
In the same way that Kyokushin isnt Shotokan.

Contact only really teaches you how to Make Contact, due to Range.
Form is not even a Factor - Im not sure where you got that from.
Granted, it teaches you to be Struck. But that can be done seperately. 

And im sure it greatly benefited these Karatekas training to Maim themselves, likely due to a lack of Conditioning, or a Mis-Executed Strike.


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## cdunn (Sep 15, 2011)

I don't think anyone is advocating us going out on the floor and beating each other to a pulp, however, the ideal of Tang Soo Do has always been declared to be effective defense. Learning to make contact, to have contact made, and to deal with the presense of the other combatant's complete package of combat is a portion of that. 

And, make no mistake, at some point, the full package must be assembled. Your distance, balance, technique, timing, endurance must be calibrated to respond to another's. You must learn how to control yourself and the opponent - and how to nullify and 'swallow' your opponent's attempts to control you. There is nothing faster than crossing fists with meaning to demonstrate what you need to learn. The issue is making it a productive learning session, rather than just an exchange of blows.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2011)

Great thread of discussion here!  While I still take the stance that TSD probably holds closer ties to Shotokan and Shudokan (due to the pioneers' training background) than that of Goju or other Okinawan arts, at my dojang we do teach principles such as rooting.  Principles such as redirecting energy are trained as well, although not typically to beginners, it is something that we focus more on after about a year of training.

Although my KJN's association is MDK TKD, I think we are closely related enough to TSD for the topic of this thread.  We use contact in sparring.  We do not wear gear (other than head gear for insurance liability reasons, and groin protectors for males).  Contact with feet are allowed from the waist up (as long as not to the back for safety reasons).  Contact with the closed hands are allowed to the torso (facial contact and open hand techniques are permitted in bb sparring).  Take downs, sweeps and throws are permitted in bb sparring.  

I think aspects such as these are more school to school dependent than style dependent.  For instance the ITF (International Tang Soo Do Federation) use extremely light contact (if contact at all), but when you look back to the "dream team" that the movie "Best of the Best" was written about, two of them were tang soo do guys (Mike Warren and Albert Cheeks; both GM Ki Whang KIM's students).  And believe me these were full contact guys.


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## Omar B (Sep 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> *In your Opinion, Yes. *But there are many things you cannot Practise against another Persons Body.
> TSD is neither Boxing, nor Knockdown Karate.
> In the same way that Kyokushin isnt Shotokan.
> 
> ...



Yes, in my opinion.  Can't speak for myself with someone elses now can I?

And yes I know the differences between styles, they don't have to be pointed out to me.

What I am saying about contact, real sparring, is that you have to learn how to dish out and take it.  It's not the same thing to throw a kick at nothing or pull back, it's a whole other thing to make contact.  It changes a lot of things including arc and recovery, things you cannot teach without making contact.  There's also shifting balance and absorbing blows more effectively, properly moving with contact when it does happen can be taught sure, but to truly understand how to roll with a punch is by just doing that.

And what do you mean form is not a factor?  Proper mechanics and execution is even more important when you are actually making contact.  Because through proper form comes proper speed and full power.


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## cdunn (Sep 15, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Great thread of discussion here!  While I still take the stance that TSD probably holds closer ties to Shotokan and Shudokan (due to the pioneers' training background) than that of Goju or other Okinawan arts, at my dojang we do teach principles such as rooting.  Principles such as redirecting energy are trained as well, although not typically to beginners, it is something that we focus more on after about a year of training.



This is probably true. However, we must also remember that the early Kwan founders trained in the '40s, a time period when Shotokan and Shudokan were in transition from their roots in Shorin-ryu / Shuri-te towards the more modern systems. So, that early influence may have once been strongly reflected in the older Korean arts, until the push to scrub taekwondo of its Japanese roots took place. As well, there have been a significant number of generations of teachers in the US now, and any given teacher may have also studied other arts.


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## Manny (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry to get inside here,but I think if someone is studying martial arts he/she must tolearn how to hit and how get hit. Light contact is not bad but in the streets the blows can be very nasty so we need to learn how to absorbe blows and we need to know how to deliver good blows too, however fo safety sake we need to use safety gearwe just can't break noses or break theet every sparring night.

I have developed somekind of technike that allow me to absorve some punishment so as boxers do I try to rollthe head when a blow is coming and I can't parry it or desviate it,also I have trained my gut to absorve some blows so I am used tobeen hit or kick,this kind of things I want toteach to my students because the hogu is to unconfortable to wear on the streets below the shirt.

Manny


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## dancingalone (Oct 5, 2011)

Manny said:


> Sorry to get inside here,but I think if someone is studying martial arts he/she must tolearn how to hit and how get hit.



Good thoughts and I generally agree, however I wanted to clarify that swallowing energy as referenced in the OP doesn't mean absorbing a hit...


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## OldKarateGuy (Oct 7, 2011)

I think there is a very fine line between being stupid and learning about real contact. Standing toe to toe and dishing it out is maybe more like boxing, not karate. In addition, I think most experienced karateka can do some serious damage, and full power sparring represents a serious risk. It is true that too many air kicks and not enough contact will not prepare students for what happens in a fight. But fighting without absolute control is just nuts. 

I do think that almost every form of sport sparring, maybe even most school sparring, has artificial rules which hinder learning about real fighting. Limiting contact (nothing below the waist, no headstrikes, etc) is counter-productive to real self-defense. But as every studio owner knows, liability limitation is what it's often about. 

If you want to keep doing martial arts into middle age and beyond, use some judgement about how much contact you tolerate in your training. You can learn the feel of full contact using pads and the like. Plus I don't think getting punched in the head with some power prepares me for anything, but maybe health issues and a headache. 

But then, when I was young, i was crazy about fighting and did lots that I now realize were foolish.


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## ATACX GYM (Oct 7, 2011)

Omar B said:


> I would love to find one of these hard style TSD schools.  I admire their form, but from a Kyokushin and Seido background I wish they had more contact.



I trained both hard style and softer style from my TSD instructor,and we definitely made contact.After that? I learned to reduce the need for constant hard contact,but learned how to do lots looots more damage. I recommend the balance of consistent contact in the lower belts and less frequent but still consistent contact in the higher belts but with waaayyyy more tech and damage.


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## Montecarlodrag (Oct 15, 2011)

Omar B said:


> I would love to find one of these hard style TSD schools. I admire their form, but from a Kyokushin and Seido background I wish they had more contact.


I agree.
But not all schools are equal. Even within the same Federation there are differences. 2 instructors teach different even when they have the same teacher.
I am a 3rd DAN in TSD. I have been beaten, kicked, punched, thrown, etc. My Sa Bum Nim once kicked me so hard I landed outside the training area.
I have ended with stitches, scratches, broken fingers, bleeding knuckles etc. I am able to recover from a punch or kick to the face in a split second because I'm used to. If you never learn to withstand being beaten in a controlled situation (dojang), you won't have a chance when it happens in real-life.
You can't be a black belt nor a complete martial artist without hitting wood a million times and your knuckles and feet are harder than steel.
As much as I love this kind of training, I know it is not suitable for everybody. Most people don't like it, most parents won't allow it.
Contact sparring IS NOT for children or girls. Contact sparring is only for the students who want it (and are able to withstand it). Can't be enforced to everybody.

A good instructor knows when contact is needed, and when it isn't.


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## Master Dan (Oct 15, 2011)

Omar B said:


> Proper form and all that is all well and good.  But in martial training one should hit and be hit.  Can't tell you how many karateka and other thoretical fighters I've seen break fingers, knuckles, toes and more striking.  Or those who lose their crap when actually struck for real.I love a lot about TSD, I would love to see it trained in a more engaged manner closer to knockdown karate or boxing.


  Yes people of all ages need to do age apropriate penetrating controled contact and just as important they need to conditon for taking contact so not only they can escape or reduce injury but it will demoralize the atacker or oponent hitting with everything they have and you are able to seem unafected. To many people tense up raise up and inhale at point of contact.


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## kbarrett (Nov 25, 2011)

I basiclly depends on what style of Tang Soo Do that is being taught, the old Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, was a blend of Korean, Okinawan, & Chinese martial arts.  The Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do that GM Won Kuk Lee taught was more Okinawan than the one the Moo Duk Kwan taught By GM Hwang Kee, we know GM Hwang Kee trained in China,and we also know he train for a short time with GM Won Kuk Lee, so he blended what he learn in China with what he learned from GM Won Kuk Lee together to form the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do after his Hwa Soo do Moo Duk Kwan failed.

Actually Tang Soo Do is a contact style, once again it really depend on the instructor about how much contact they will allow, as I said in another post Tang Soo Do doesn't allow punching to the face, only body contact.  Even Shotokan and Kyoushin have contact but not to the face, as with any sparring getting hit happens you simply bow show respect and continue sparring (if face contact is made) something else to think about most people training have jobs, the last thing they want to do is go to work the next day with a black eye, fat lips, or a marked up face, that why most don't allow face contact.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett


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