# Is the EWTO finally getting a legit grappling game?



## geezer (Nov 24, 2016)

Just saw this on Youtube. Just a flashy promotional video, but what surprised me is that the EWTO, an organization that for years kept preaching that all the ground game you'd ever need was already in their system, now seems to be openly importing some legit grapplers to train their ground game. I see this as potentially a big move forward. 

Are there any EWTO guys out there  who know anything about this? Any other opinions?


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## KPM (Nov 25, 2016)

Looks like good stuff!  And I'll bet no one teases that guy about his name being "Karen"!


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## geezer (Nov 25, 2016)

KPM said:


> Looks like good stuff!  And I'll bet no one teases that guy about his name being "Karen"!



...Yeah, probably just makes him tougher. Like in the Johhny Cash song, _A Boy named Sue_.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 25, 2016)

Always good to get quality instruction!


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## anerlich (Nov 26, 2016)

My instructor has been bringing in John Will, now a fifth degree BJJ black belt, for seminars several times a year since 1998. He has  also had a Persian wrestling coach who'd been wrestling since he was 4 teaching regular classes for several years. Our kwoon is a Machado Jiu Jitsu affiliate school. My instructor is a BJJ brown belt, I am a black belt.

Like most guys who have trained grappling for a while, I've been to over 60 seminars with high ranking BJJ black and coral belts and American wrestlers.

My opinion? They should have swallowed their pride and started doing this seriously twenty years ago instead of getting into the stupid mudslinging matches involving Kernspecht, Emin, and the Gracies. Interesting that they chose A Gene LeBell / Gokor student rather than a BJJ instructor, perhaps because of that history. Nothing wrong with that choice, though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 27, 2016)

Good to see. A friend lent me Boztepe's "anti-grappling" DVD a while ago and it was ... highly questionable (to be polite about it). Looks like they're now getting exposed to some real grappling.


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## PiedmontChun (Nov 28, 2016)

Looks awesome. I've never done BJJ but have a few friends around the blue belt level in it, and I've always thought it could complement WC/WC/VT quite well. As in, you could study both arts even simultaneously, and this would be far more preferable than trying to just add on some grappling in bits and pieces to your WT (though its still better than nothing). Sifu Chris Collins is someone who I think would be awesome to train under: he teaches both WT and BJJ as distinct arts and does not just "add on" grappling components to his WT.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2016)

Collins seems like a really accomplished martial artist who brings it all together... WT, Grappling, FMA and firearms training. That pretty much covers it.

One thing about an instructor who has broad experience is that he can really address transitioning from one area to another... like transitioning from weapons empty hand work, or from striking to grappling, stand-up to ground, etc. That's something that isn't covered when you learn the arts totally separately.


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## PiedmontChun (Nov 28, 2016)

Yes, that's an excellent point I missed articulating above! Learning how two (or more) arts can flow from one to the other is something a teacher experienced in both could teach, rather than having to connect all those dots yourself.
If I was independently wealthy and could hypothetically train at length everyday, I would split my time between WT, Judo, and BJJ, but even then I would have to learn them separately unless I relocated. I suppose that's one thing I am envious of MMA guys for; there are tons of gyms out there combining Muay Thai or Boxing with BJJ in one place and often by the same teacher.


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## wtxs (Nov 28, 2016)

geezer said:


> ...Yeah, probably just makes him tougher. Like in the Johhny Cash song, _A Boy named Sue_.



You are older than dirt (as I), never mind the song, likely more than half of the people here don't even know the name _*Johhny*_ Cash.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 28, 2016)

wtxs said:


> You are older than dirt (as I), never mind the song, likely more than half of the people here don't even know the name _*Johhny*_ Cash.


Even many of us who are not nearly as moldy as Geezer are likely to know that reference.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 28, 2016)

In a scuba circle I used to run around with, I knew a man named Tiffany.  He carried the biggest dive knife he could find and always dressed in combat boots.  it was just part of his costume. True story.


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## anerlich (Nov 28, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> As in, you could study both arts even simultaneously, and this would be far more preferable than trying to just add on some grappling in bits and pieces to your WT (though its still better than nothing). Sifu Chris Collins is someone who I think would be awesome to train under: he teaches both WT and BJJ as distinct arts and does not just "add on" grappling components to his WT.



Having taught both WC and BJJ for a fair while, I agree wholeheartedly that they should be taught as distinct arts. No one should even think about mixing them up until they have a high level in both.

My biggest mistake in learning BJJ in the early days was trying to look at it through the lens of Wing Chun. It worked OK for the first year or so but it definitely got in the way after that. You have to empty your cup. There are (a few) useful analogies I can use to teach Jiu Jitsu to Wing Chun people, but not many.



geezer said:


> One thing about an instructor who has broad experience is that he can really address transitioning from one area to another... like transitioning from weapons empty hand work, or from striking to grappling, stand-up to ground, etc. That's something that isn't covered when you learn the arts totally separately.



Really, integrating striking and grappling, and the other things, is so different from the individual disciplines that it really needs to be considered as a separate art of its own. All the best MMA schools I've been to teach kickboxing, Jiu Jitsu, and MMA (and boxing and wrestling if they have them) as separate disciplines in separate classes.

In general, the few people who do MMA exclusively tend to get schooled in a pure grappling encounter by those who train BJJ. And by specialist kickboxers in a kickboxing match. But under MMA rules the MMA guys almost always win.

I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.


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## Steve (Nov 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Even many of us who are not nearly as moldy as Geezer are likely to know that reference.


I think you guys are underestimating the average age of people around here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2016)

Steve said:


> I think you guys are underestimating the average age of people around here.


Are you saying there aren't many of us who aren't as moldy as Geezer?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Having taught both WC and BJJ for a fair while, I agree wholeheartedly that they should be taught as distinct arts. No one should even think about mixing them up until they have a high level in both.
> 
> My biggest mistake in learning BJJ in the early days was trying to look at it through the lens of Wing Chun. It worked OK for the first year or so but it definitely got in the way after that. You have to empty your cup. There are (a few) useful analogies I can use to teach Jiu Jitsu to Wing Chun people, but not many.
> 
> ...


That's a good point. They are, in fact, distinct skill sets even within an art that integrates them (like NGA). I tend to focus on one or the other during a given class, and then occasionally have a class that integrates them. I would suppose someone teaching BJJ and WC to the same group could do the same. Have BJJ classes and WC classes, and occasionally have a class to work on transitions. Otherwise, you just teach the two, and good students will work out the integration themselves, when they are advanced enough. 


> In general, the few people who do MMA exclusively tend to get schooled in a pure grappling encounter by those who train BJJ. And by specialist kickboxers in a kickboxing match. But under MMA rules the MMA guys almost always win.
> 
> I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 29, 2016)

anerlich said:


> I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.


I forgot to reply to this part...

This is a great topic for a guest instructor or seminar. I imagine someone like you going to a WC-only school to teach a class once a quarter to introduce counters. The difficulty, of course, is that they'd be practicing those counters against people who aren't adept at the takedowns being countered. That approach might require that there be at least a couple of competent grapplers (at least at a few basic takedowns) at the school for them to practice against.


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## geezer (Nov 29, 2016)

anerlich said:


> ....I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.



^^^ I really agree with this. And that's what WC/VT/WT anti-grappling_ should be_. A sort of self-defense course against common, low-level grappling attacks so you can avoid obvious errors and have _a chance_ to escape and recover. Beyond that, to deal with real  grappling, you have to train real grappling.

BTW my comment above about transitions was basically in agreement with what you said above and not to suggest blending separate arts. The "DTE" MMA guys I know also train their different arts separately with different coaches, but each knows enough about the other stuff to help with transitions and spot errors. Stuff like working with WC people and showing them where and how they are vulnerable and how to correct it. Or how you can transition from close range striking (like WC) to set up a throw, etc. Cross-training and having multiple coaches under one roof tends to encourage that kind of thing.


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## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

Does this mean that unless they also teach some grappling techniques at your school you should just go and take jiu jitsu lessons
additionally somewhere else?

I also feel uncomfortable with the thought that basically you must not go to the ground or you're meat. 
Simply saying you simply must not go down and turn out your attacker before this can happen isn't very comforting.
What if for whatever reason it does happen?!

A system should strive the be complete and offer solutions for every thinkable scenario. Why does wing chun not automatically do this?
Did none of the old wing chun gurus every feel like ground defense might be important?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Does this mean that unless they also teach some grappling techniques at your school you should just go and take jiu jitsu lessons
> additionally somewhere else?
> 
> I also feel uncomfortable with the thought that basically you must not go to the ground or you're meat.
> ...


No system is complete. There's not enough time to teach everything through a single art, as most students won't commit the extreme amount of time that would take. Some (like my primary art) cover more ground at the cost of going less in-depth in some areas. Some (like BJJ) go into great depth in an area, at the cost of not doing much in other areas.


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## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

Does BJJ not include striking?

I'd assume that learning to strike is easier than learning how to roll around on the ground.

Why don't they simply complete their system with a few basic strikes and kicks?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Does BJJ not include striking?
> 
> I'd assume that learning to strike is easier than learning how to roll around on the ground.
> 
> Why don't they simply complete their system with a few basic strikes and kicks?


Because every system must focus somewhere.


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> ...A system should strive the be complete and offer solutions for every thinkable scenario. Why does wing chun not automatically do this? Did none of the old wing chun gurus every feel like ground defense might be important?



Sure, old school WC, like most TCMA (Traditional Chinese Martial Arts) included_ ti-da-shuai-na _or kicking, punching, locking, and throwing, adequate for it's time and context. But it is also a specialized martial art that is highly developed for stand-up (striking) infighting. No art excels equally in all ranges and types of fighting. My belief is let WC focus on what it does best. If you want in depth training in grappling, study a grappling art. For sticks, knives and improvised weapons, try FMA. For firearms.... well you get the idea.

As far as one art teaching everything? Well you will get about the same quality in each specialty area as you do at the food court at the outlet mall!


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## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

Ok but you also won't find a basketball player who only trains throwing the ball.

Why not simply practice some punches/kicks before you take somebody to the ground?


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Does BJJ not include striking?
> 
> I'd assume that learning to strike is easier than learning how to roll around on the ground.
> 
> Why don't they simply complete their system with a few basic strikes and kicks?


Classic BJJ does include some basic strikes and kicks. With the current focus on sport competition, not all schools teach them, but they are part of the art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Ok but you also won't find a basketball player who only trains throwing the ball.
> 
> Why not simply practice some punches/kicks before you take somebody to the ground?


You also won't find a basketball player who practices soccer-style dribbling as part of his basketball. It's a different thing.


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## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> But it is also a specialized martial art that is highly developed for stand-up (striking) infighting. No art excels equally in all ranges and types of fighting.



But being too specialized can also be negative.

Do you do grappling stuff on your own? Or do you not worry about this?


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## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Classic BJJ does include some basic strikes and kicks. With the current focus on sport competition, not all schools teach them, but they are part of the art.



To me it doesn't really make sense to learn BJJ for self-defense when you know exactly that in order to "win" you need to drag the attacker to the
ground. This won't even work against multiple attackers.

If I only knew BJJ then I'd also worry and think what if ground fighting isn't an option?


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> To me it doesn't really make sense to learn BJJ for self-defense when you know exactly that in order to "win" you need to drag the attacker to the
> ground. This won't even work against multiple attackers.
> 
> If I only knew BJJ then I'd also worry and think what if ground fighting isn't an option?



Are you sure you aren't _Kehcorpz?_ Anyway each art has its place. I love WC and Escrima. I'd be studying BJJ too except _I'd get killed_.  ...By my Wife  

She's a patient woman, but adding one more martial art would be a bridge too far...


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> Are you sure you aren't _Kehcorpz?_ Anyway each art has its place. I love WC and Escrima. I'd be studying BJJ too except _I'd get killed_.  ...By my Wife
> 
> She's a patient woman, but adding one more martial art would be a bridge too far...


Yours, too?


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## bezzerk (Dec 1, 2016)

I don't think I have the stability for BJJ. My joints already hurt on their own.


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> But being too specialized can also be negative.
> 
> Do you do grappling stuff on your own? Or do you not worry about this?



I grew up wrestling. But that's strictly a sport. Still, it taught me how to move on the ground ...and to like being down there.  I'd love to take up BJJ, but I'm old now (in my 60s) , and my time is limited too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> I don't think I have the stability for BJJ. My joints already hurt on their own.


I can relate to that. I couldn't go roll weekly - knees and toe won't take that. Doesn't stop me from working to learn some basics and going out and doing what I can in other areas.


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## drop bear (Dec 1, 2016)

geezer said:


> I grew up wrestling. But that's strictly a sport. Still, it taught me how to move on the ground ...and to like being down there.  I'd love to take up BJJ, but I'm old now (in my 60s) , and my time is limited too.



Wrestling has been used to train warriors for longer than pretty much any other martial art.


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## anerlich (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Does this mean that unless they also teach some grappling techniques at your school you should just go and take jiu jitsu lessons additionally somewhere else?



A number of people on this forum have taken that approach. As did I, and my Wing Chun instructor.

No one HAS to do anything. What you practise depends on your goals for studying martial arts.



bezzerk said:


> A system should strive the be complete and offer solutions for every thinkable scenario. Why does wing chun not automatically do this? Did none of the old wing chun gurus every feel like ground defense might be important?



The style of Wing Chun I practise does in fact have techniques for use if you are knocked over and put on the ground. However, the emphasis is on either incapacitating the opponent with kicks, pushing/keeping them away long enough to regain your feet, or finding a way to knock them down so you can regain your feet. Wing Chun strategy is to get up as quickly as possible if you are knocked down.

A more ground-fighting oriented style like Jiu Jitsu has a far wider arsenal of techniques for use if you, the opponent, or both of you have hit the floor. If there is little chance of intervention by outsiders the Jiu Jitsu fighter may elect to wrap the guy up tight with arms and legs, both of them on the floor, and immobilize him, before strangling or choking him unconscious, threatening him with joint damage, etc.

People decry Jiu Jitsu because of "MULTIPLE OPPONENTS" but they have not understood that while Jiu Jitsu strategy often times will have you put the opponent on the ground, where most people have fewer options, it does not obligate you to go down there with them. You can keep them pinned with knee on stomach while working a verbal fence with other attackers, for example ... but in reality, you have to be ridiculously good and extremely lucky to prevail unarmed against multiple attackers, whatever style you employ, including Wing Chun. You can try, and practice for such scenarios, and many of us do that, but I'm still putting my money on the other guys no matter who you are.

Realistically, no style has all the answers to every scenario. It's called Mixed Martial Arts for a reason.

In any case, outside of war zones and professional warriors, training all out with the only goal being to prepare yourself for a violent assault which will probably never come, seems like a pretty sad and desperate way to live your life. If you are reasonably alert, stay away from drunk people and drugs and places where they congregate, and don't do stupid sh*t to antagonise other people, your chances of assault are pretty damn low.

According to the CDC you are several thousand times more likely to die of lifestyle-related heart disease than from a violent assault ... and your training priorities should reflect that IMO. You will never train, so this advice is strictly academic.


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## anerlich (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm 62 and doing BJJ around 4 times a week. I've met guys in their seventies who are quite good. It may not be as bad as you think. You spend a lot of time lying down


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## anerlich (Dec 1, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> oes BJJ not include striking?
> 
> I'd assume that learning to strike is easier than learning how to roll around on the ground.
> 
> Why don't they simply complete their system with a few basic strikes and kicks?



The older Gracies and their contemporaries did. It's called Vale Tudo. Watch a movie called "Choke" about Rickson Gracie winning a world championship.



bezzerk said:


> Ok but you also won't find a basketball player who only trains throwing the ball.



But you WILL find martial arts forum members who ask incessant questions that could all be answered in half an hour in an actual class, but never train.


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## Kickboxer101 (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> Does BJJ not include striking?
> 
> I'd assume that learning to strike is easier than learning how to roll around on the ground.
> 
> Why don't they simply complete their system with a few basic strikes and kicks?


Yeah learning to strike is easier how about you try it


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## Flying Crane (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> But being too specialized can also be negative.
> 
> Do you do grappling stuff on your own? Or do you not worry about this?


I know you didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyways:  no, I do not worry about it.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 2, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah learning to strike is easier how about you try it


Well, that would mean that he actually, ya know, do something.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 2, 2016)

bezzerk said:


> If I only knew BJJ then I'd also worry and think what if ground fighting isn't an option?



If you only knew BJJ, then you would actually know something.

As it is you know nothing, and never will.


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