# New Aikido invented for self-defence by Ljubomir Vračarević



## moonhill99

There is new Aikido style invented mainly for self-defence. Bit more aggressive and more striking than mainstream Aikido or most Aikido out there these days.

It was developed by Ljubomir Vračarević, a self-defence instructor from Serbia. It is a mixture of aikido, judo and Japanese jujutsu but a much more simplified version of all three and bit more aggressive and more striking.

They have schools all over Europe and have spread to Canada and Australia. Also it is starting to spread to the US and two states in US where they have schools one of them in Florida.

I really interested in aikido, judo and Japanese jujutsu.Very much so into harder and rougher fighting styles.

I would like to know how how effective this new aikido style?


_*Internet source and information about it.*_

Sanja Vra arevi On Serbia s Martial Real Aikido Her Admiration For BJJ Bjj Eastern Europe

Home

New Aikido in action  























It looks very good.

This is kinda of thing I'm after.




How good is this new Aikido? It looks very good and bit flashy.

.....


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## drop bear

Ok i just watched the first video because I am running out of internet. But a demo done hard with flash is not an indication that a technique will work any better than any other technique.

so i would ask what makes them more street than any other akido?


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## Xue Sheng

ummm then he is saying traditional Aikido is NOT for self-defense then.....


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## Jenna

moonhill99 said:


> I would like to know how how effective this new aikido style?


 What can I ask would be the measure its effectiveness for you?

I would suggest you go try it out for your self.. if you like it then you will practice and train the specific things you are looking for from it and so you will make it effective for your purposes.  If you try it and do not like it then what does it matter who says it is "effective" or not.. And if you never try it you will only have hearsay of others to to on.. Just go try it.. you are the best judge for you.  

I can only say generally that Aikido like most arts can be tailored tuned and adapted in such a way that it can become almost what ever you need it to be.. Jx


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## moonhill99

drop bear said:


> Ok i just watched the first video because I am running out of internet. But a demo done hard with flash is not an indication that a technique will work any better than any other technique.
> 
> so i would ask what makes them more street than any other akido?



You have to understand Aikido is soft art, the point of Aikido is to get guy on ground with little force than needed. It is for self-defence not combat or a fight. You do not strike,put in lock or submission on ground. You back away when person is on the ground.

Hapkido and some Japanese Ju Jitsu was design to kill the person and was design for war.

Where Aikido was for self-defence. Now there some forms of Aikido that put in bit more striking and rougher fighting like Aiki-jūjutsu.

Aikido was design for love and peace using the person energy and movement against them. It was not design for striking or getting the person on ground and put person in choke hold,lock,submission or striking.

I think what Ljubomir Vračarević thinks is Aikido should be bit more aggressive.


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## moonhill99

Jenna said:


> What can I ask would be the measure its effectiveness for you?
> 
> I would suggest you go try it out for your self.. if you like it then you will practice and train the specific things you are looking for from it and so you will make it effective for your purposes.  If you try it and do not like it then what does it matter who says it is "effective" or not.. And if you never try it you will only have hearsay of others to to on.. Just go try it.. you are the best judge for you.
> 
> I can only say generally that Aikido like most arts can be tailored tuned and adapted in such a way that it can become almost what ever you need it to be.. Jx



I don't know of any Aiki-jūjutsu or this new Aikido schools in Florida.

I think I will like Aiki-jūjutsu, Japanese Ju Jitsu or other forms of Aikido than the mainstream Aikido that is less aggressive.

Read my other thread in the Beginners Corner section of this forum.I'm having hard time finding schools in Florida.


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## Tez3

moonhill99 said:


> Aikido was design for love and peace using the person energy and movement against them.



To be honest I've never heard that, I've been to several seminars where Aikido was one of the martial arts there and there was absolutely no 'love and peace' going on rather very efficient techniques which hurt like anything.



moonhill99 said:


> You back away when person is on the ground.



Again I've not seen that, they seem to back away when they've dropped the person on the floor unconscious lol otherwise they seem to have interesting ways to hold people on the ground...that hurt too. Perhaps I've just come across more active Aikidoka but I don't think they need to be more aggressive, from what I've seen over the years they do the job very nicely thank you and 'ouch'!


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## tshadowchaser

Interesting demos but I did notice a few where the person doing the technique was moving into position for the throw even before the attacker had started his movement. ( 8 sec in vid 1 for example)
Am I wrong in assuming that this combination of Judo, Aikido, and Japanese jujutsu is what he is calling pure Aikido?  Why not call not what it is a combination art?  
Out of Curiosity what ranks did he have in these arts and from what organizations before he made up his own art?


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## Mephisto

moonhill99 said:


> Where Aikido was for self-defence. Now there some forms of Aikido that put in bit more striking and rougher fighting like Aiki-jūjutsu.


Not sure if this is a typo, but you've got it backwards Aiki jujutsu precedes aikido. The demo is cool but as has been mentioned you can't really assess effectiveness of a style based on a compliant demo. There's nothing to suggest this is any better than any other form of aikido. It does look a little less stylized like we commonly see with aikido. The problem I see with this style or any combative style is the training method prevents you from training techniques at full speed against a resisting opponent. This is due to the aggressive nature of the joint locks. These systems are a good way to top off a martial artists skillset but a solid foundation based on resistance training makes for a good base.


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## Xue Sheng

moonhill99 said:


> I don't know of any Aiki-jūjutsu or this new Aikido schools in Florida.
> 
> I think I will like Aiki-jūjutsu, Japanese Ju Jitsu or other forms of Aikido than the mainstream Aikido that is less aggressive.
> 
> Read my other thread in the Beginners Corner section of this forum.I'm having hard time finding schools in Florida.



*Googlefu*

*Aikido in Florida*

Fort Lauderdale
Hollywood
Tampa
Orlando
Tallahassee
Cape Coral

*Aikijutsu in Florida*

Sunrise

*Jujutsu Florida*

Boca Raton
Pinellas Park
Largo
Sarasota
Haileah
Orlando
Brandon


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## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> You have to understand Aikido is soft art, the point of Aikido is to get guy on ground with little force than needed. It is for self-defence not combat or a fight. You do not strike,put in lock or submission on ground. You back away when person is on the ground.
> 
> Hapkido and some Japanese Ju Jitsu was design to kill the person and was design for war.
> 
> Where Aikido was for self-defence. Now there some forms of Aikido that put in bit more striking and rougher fighting like Aiki-jūjutsu.
> 
> Aikido was design for love and peace using the person energy and movement against them. It was not design for striking or getting the person on ground and put person in choke hold,lock,submission or striking.
> 
> I think what Ljubomir Vračarević thinks is Aikido should be bit more aggressive.




This shows that you don't know much about Aikido. Aikido is derived directly from Daito Ryu. There are a lot of strikes, or atemi in Aikido. Ueshiba Morihei once stated that 70% of his Aikido was Atemi. We use them more to unbalance someone, or keep them off balance than as a primary technique, but many techniques have some more of Atemi. All jujutsu techniques were designed for battle...hence the "jutsu" designation.

We also have pins, or submissions that we routinely practice once the person is on the ground, etc.

Also, Daito Ryu jujutsu, or later aiki jujutsu, forms the foundation of Aikido. The reason that you use their energy against them is that you always assume multiple attackers. Wasting energy when you may be involved in a long encounter is dangerous.

Lastly, every form of japanese jujutsu I've seen, and perhaps others can correct me, but they were all designed primarily as defensive arts. The thought being that in feudal Japan, to attack someone without a weapon was considered to be an absolutely crazy, lunatic idea. Chances are, they had a weapon. Open hand combat was only reserved for defensive situations when you lost your weapon.

I wouldn't put much stock in their demo videos.

Respectfully,

Mike


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## Jenna

moonhill99 said:


> I think I will like Aiki-jūjutsu, Japanese Ju Jitsu or other forms of Aikido than the mainstream Aikido that is less aggressive.
> 
> Read my other thread in the Beginners Corner section of this forum.I'm having hard time finding schools in Florida.


Read your other post.. some good information for you I think.. what art or arts are you currently practicing can I ask? Jx


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## drop bear

Mephisto said:


> Not sure if this is a typo, but you've got it backwards Aiki jujutsu precedes aikido. The demo is cool but as has been mentioned you can't really assess effectiveness of a style based on a compliant demo. There's nothing to suggest this is any better than any other form of aikido. It does look a little less stylized like we commonly see with aikido. The problem I see with this style or any combative style is the training method prevents you from training techniques at full speed against a resisting opponent. This is due to the aggressive nature of the joint locks. These systems are a good way to top off a martial artists skillset but a solid foundation based on resistance training makes for a good base.



There is some aki jitsu trained what looks like legitimately live. Which i cant find because I am still low on internet.


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## hussaf

There is nothing new or inventive about that.  It's a demo of compliant partners.  Aikido has always incorporated concepts from judo and jujitsu.

The technique is a little sloppy and rushed at times, sh'te is loosing his center of gravity by rushing and getting in too much of a rhythm.

Ueshiba said aikido is mostly striking.

Ueshiba said he couldn't demonstrate pure aikido to the emperor because someone would be killed.  

There is aiki judo in Lehigh and West Palm Springs FL.


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## slink

tshadowchaser said:


> Interesting demos but I did notice a few where the person doing the technique was moving into position for the throw even before the attacker had started his movement. ( 8 sec in vid 1 for example)
> Am I wrong in assuming that this combination of Judo, Aikido, and Japanese jujutsu is what he is calling pure Aikido?  Why not call not what it is a combination art?
> Out of Curiosity what ranks did he have in these arts and from what organizations before he made up his own art?


If you can tell that someone is about to attack there's nothing inherently wrong with moving into position early.  It isn't hard to find examples of Saito Sensei and other big names in Aikido advocating that kind of thing.


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## Instructor

Actually I just want to say that Hapkido was developed in peace time after WWII though the Korean war was an event that happened during Hapkido's history I haven't really read any mention of that war having an impact on the system.  To my mind it is solidly in the civil defense arts category.


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## Hanzou

Aikido always looks great in demos. I wish someone would take Aikido and use it in a MMA/NHB format. That would be a joy to see.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> Aikido always looks great in demos. I wish someone would take Aikido and use it in a MMA/NHB format. That would be a joy to see.



Well odds are folks would just call it something else...like the fans who can't tell the difference between karate and MT kicks


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Well odds are folks would just call it something else...like the fans who can't tell the difference between karate and MT kicks



I disagree. No one has a problem giving credit to Ronda Rousey's Judo.

Besides, Aikido is pretty distinct from other grappling styles.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. No one has a problem giving credit to Ronda Rousey's Judo.
> 
> Besides, Aikido is pretty distinct from other grappling styles.



Because Judo is considered a "hard and practical" art in MMA. In the "Karate vs Muay Thai kicks, fan confusion" example, Judo is the Muay thai. People are going to attribute aikido in the cage as Judo simply because it's what they know and think highly of.

Fans already do it with striking, they'd do the same thing with grappling


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Because Judo is considered a "hard and practical" art in MMA. In the "Karate vs Muay Thai kicks, fan confusion" example, Judo is the Muay thai. People are going to attribute aikido in the cage as Judo simply because it's what they know and think highly of.



So is Bjj. People can still tell the difference between Bjj and Judo, despite them being related styles.



> Fans already do it with striking, they'd do the same thing with grappling



Again, if someone popped up on the MMA scene tossing people around with Aikido, no one would be confused about what they do. Aikido throws look quite a bit different than Judo or wrestling throws.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> So is Bjj. People can still tell the difference between Bjj and Judo, despite them being related styles.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if someone popped up on the MMA scene tossing people around with Aikido, no one would be confused about what they do. Aikido throws look quite a bit different than Judo or wrestling throws.



Yes BJJ is....you missed the point of the example there....

And Aikido randori  at competitions tends ooks a bit like "jittery" Judo. Not to mention both styles use similar takedown and throws.

How much exposure to Aikido have you had? It isn't all just redirections and Steven Seagal movie throws


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## Hanzou

Drose427 said:


> Yes BJJ is....you missed the point of the example there....
> 
> And Aikido randori  at competitions tends ooks a bit like "jittery" Judo. Not to mention both styles use similar takedown and throws.



So why does competition Aikido look so much different than standard Aikido? That should say something shouldn't it?

Additionally;





We don't do takedowns like that.



> How much exposure to Aikido have you had? It isn't all just redirections and Steven Seagal movie throws



I took a class in college. Wasn't very impressed, because at the time I was taking Judo.


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## Drose427

Hanzou said:


> So why does competition Aikido look so much different than standard Aikido? That should say something shouldn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> I took a class in college. Wasn't very impressed, because at the time I was taking Judo.



It isn't overly different, they just focus less on the flipping and tossing..they still use a lot of the same trips, throws, and locks they teach in a normal class.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Aikido always looks great in demos. I wish someone would take Aikido and use it in a MMA/NHB format. That would be a joy to see.


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Aikido always looks great in demos. I wish someone would take Aikido and use it in a MMA/NHB format. That would be a joy to see.


You would recognise it if you saw it. As usual you are looking at the kihon style training. 



Hanzou said:


> Besides, Aikido is pretty distinct from other grappling styles.


Really? In what way? It is incorporated our karate grappling and it is in my Krav. I started training aikido to improve my understanding of karate.



Hanzou said:


> Again, if someone popped up on the MMA scene tossing people around with Aikido, no one would be confused about what they do. Aikido throws look quite a bit different than Judo or wrestling throws.


Interesting. For me Aikido only has one throw and I would probably never use it. It is identical to the comparable throw in judo. The rest are take downs and again similar to many other styles.



Hanzou said:


> So why does competition Aikido look so much different than standard Aikido? That should say something shouldn't it?


Competition Aikido is just that .. competition Aikido. It was never sanctioned by Ueshiba and to me it has no place.



Hanzou said:


> We don't do takedowns like that.


Quite understandable. It took me over seven years to be able to do it against a non compliant person.



Hanzou said:


> I took a class in college. Wasn't very impressed, because at the time I was taking Judo.


Perhaps if you had attended more you may have learned something. Then again, probably not.


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## moonhill99

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I've never heard that, I've been to several seminars where Aikido was one of the martial arts there and there was absolutely no 'love and peace' going on rather very efficient techniques which hurt like anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I've not seen that, they seem to back away when they've dropped the person on the floor unconscious lol otherwise they seem to have interesting ways to hold people on the ground...that hurt too. Perhaps I've just come across more active Aikidoka but I don't think they need to be more aggressive, from what I've seen over the years they do the job very nicely thank you and 'ouch'!



Aikido does have holds,pins,strikes and submission but it seems to be more in way in self-defence than attack.

Some of the Aiki-jūjutsu or jūjutsu schools have more holds, pins, strikes and submission.And used more.

The point of Aikido is it is for self-defence so I think this is where the 'love and peace come from. And Aikido is really big on Buddhism.


Many people criticize Steven Seagal for teaching people and promoting the violent aggressive Aikido.


Also Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido later on became a softer and more circular.And Striking techniques became less important and the formal curriculum.


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## Spinedoc

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I've never heard that, I've been to several seminars where Aikido was one of the martial arts there and there was absolutely no 'love and peace' going on rather very efficient techniques which hurt like anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I've not seen that, they seem to back away when they've dropped the person on the floor unconscious lol otherwise they seem to have interesting ways to hold people on the ground...that hurt too. Perhaps I've just come across more active Aikidoka but I don't think they need to be more aggressive, from what I've seen over the years they do the job very nicely thank you and 'ouch'!




Yeah, it's not soft and nice. There's some variance by dojo of course, but ours is not. I still have bruises on my chest wall from Monday night's practice of ryokatedori nikyo. 

We also don't "back away" but rather submit the person and pin them. The pins look gentle if you watch them…..have someone do one on you. They are anything but gentle. The sankyo pin leaves my hand tingling sometimes for hours. LOL.


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


>



Yeah, even that looks iffy to me. I would need to see Aikido out of its element, going up against a completely different style.

Like this;






Of course Aikido didn't fair well in that exchange.


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## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> Aikido does have holds,pins,strikes and submission but it seems to be more in way in self-defence than attack.
> 
> Some of the Aiki-jūjutsu or jūjutsu schools have more holds, pins, strikes and submission.And used more.
> 
> The point of Aikido is it is for self-defence so I think this is where the 'love and peace come from. And Aikido is really big on Buddhism.
> 
> 
> Many people criticize Steven Seagal for teaching people and promoting the violent aggressive Aikido.
> 
> 
> Also Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido later on became a softer and more circular.And Striking techniques became less important and the formal curriculum.



All of the jujutsu curriculums, at least the original koryu curriculums were designed for defensive uses only. What did you need to do when you either lost your weapon, or were attacked when you did not have it with you? That was the purpose of jujutsu. Also, Aiki-jujutsu is a relatively recent term, coined by Takeda Sokaku in the early 20th century, there are no records of jujutsu being called "Aiki" before then. 

The difference between Aikido and koryu jujutsu was not the defensive intent, but rather how you finished. Both were for defensive purposes, but Aikido has a philosophy of not trying to harm your attacker, while jujutsu was a little more brutal. 

Also, both jujutsu and Aikido are both circular. That does not equate to "soft". Some styles have bigger circles, some have smaller circles, some are more linear, some are more circular, but both are circular. 

Lastly, the Samurai were all VERY big on Zen Buddhism. Started under the Ashikaga shogunate in the 12th century IIRC, and Zen Buddhism helped the samurai develop bushido and to lose the fear of dying. 

Just to clarify here.

Mike


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, even that looks iffy to me. I would need to see Aikido out of its element, going up against a completely different style.
> 
> Like this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Aikido didn't fair well in that exchange.


Not surprising it looks iffy. Did you look at the competition rules? No punching, no clinching etc etc. 

Why do you keep bagging different styles when they are competing to their rules. Get over it.

And of course another video you have selected to bag a style and make your point. Had you considered that the wrestler was a visitor, pitted against a relatively low skilled grappler. One minute you are suggesting that we should bring in specialist grapplers to help us improve our skills then you bag a school that does it. Unbelievable!


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## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> Yeah, it's not soft and nice. There's some variance by dojo of course, but ours is not. I still have bruises on my chest wall from Monday night's practice of ryokatedori nikyo.
> 
> We also don't "back away" but rather submit the person and pin them. The pins look gentle if you watch them…..have someone do one on you. They are anything but gentle. The sankyo pin leaves my hand tingling sometimes for hours. LOL.



Your school does sound different and I have seen clips on youtube getting them on the ground and doing pins, strikes and submission!! But so many of them just put them on the ground and step back when they are on the ground.

This is what I mean by more striking and aggressive fighting.

The jujitsu guy is more aggressive and more striking.


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## Tez3

I think the Turkish wrestler had a bit of an advantage in that his opponent unlike his usual ones wasn't covered in oil. I imagine he doesn't often find an opponent he can grip easily.





Seriously though, he was *instructing *so I don't see how the Aikidoka came off worse, he was being the uke so that the Turkish wrestler could demo his techniques. Wow, did I really actually need to explain that!


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> Not surprising it looks iffy. Did you look at the competition rules? No punching, no clinching etc etc.
> 
> Why do you keep bagging different styles when they are competing to their rules. Get over it.



Who's bagging it? I'm simply saying that it would be more interesting to see Aikido being utilized against an opponent that isn't doing Aikido. Preferably in a NHB competition.



> And of course another video you have selected to bag a style and make your point. Had you considered that the wrestler was a visitor, pitted against a relatively low skilled grappler. One minute you are suggesting that we should bring in specialist grapplers to help us improve our skills then you bag a school that does it. Unbelievable!



I was under the impression that only black belts were permitted to wear Hakamas in Aikido. That would make that Aikidoka a fairly advanced student, would it not?


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## Xue Sheng

Year ago I was part of a multi-style sparing group and I was coming from Pre-Olympic TKD and Japanese Jujutsu, but I was learning Chinese martial arts at the time. I had little respect for aikido at that time until I spared a woman aikidoka who came form a local Aikido school..... she slammed me into the floor..it was very cool and I gained a respect for aikido... I guarantee you I was not giving her anything... but I will also admit I spared a couple Aikido people prior to that and they had nothing...but then I do not think the came from the same sensei either... I have sense come across many that were very good


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## Spinedoc

Hanzou said:


> I was under the impression that only black belts were permitted to wear Hakamas in Aikido. That would make that Aikidoka a fairly advanced student, would it not?



Depends greatly on the Aikido association. There are no hard and fast rules. ASU (Aikido Schools of Ueshiba) has students wearing Hakama after 6th kyu. USAF (United States Aikido Federation) does not allow it until shodan. I've heard of shihan who want students wearing them quickly to immerse themselves in the tradition of Aikido, and others who are more strict about the Hakama. 

I wear one for Iaido, but not for Aikido, as I train in USAF. 

Point is, we don't know. The hakama is not necessarily an indicator of rank.


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## K-man

Tez3 said:


> . Wow, did I really actually need to explain that!


Yep!


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## K-man

Hanzou said:


> Who's bagging it? I'm simply saying that it would be more interesting to see Aikido being utilized against an opponent that isn't doing Aikido. Preferably in a NHB competition.


You bag every other style. Aikido is not a style suited for sport and Tomiki aikido is not typical of Aikido. When you look at the rules of competition you would see why I think it's not particularly useful unless you want to compete with other like minded people. You won't see Aikido in a NHB competition. We don't train for that.



Hanzou said:


> I was under the impression that only black belts were permitted to wear Hakamas in Aikido. That would make that Aikidoka a fairly advanced student, would it not?


Mate, you claim to be a Shodan in your karate. Does that make you an advanced student? Not from your understanding of karate that you have demonstrated here. I have trained with a lot of high ranked Aikidoka and very few of them are at a level where their techniques are effective. Sure they will probably work against untrained people and that is all most people want. That means nothing if that is the training that keeps them fit and makes them happy. For me, I don't train that way and my students keep me honest.  If I can't make my techniques work I'm out of business. My Krav guys come from all areas of the MAs. At present they represent karate, Muay Thai, MMA, BJJ and boxing as well as those just off the street. Then, if you came to my aikido class you wouldn't see me in a hakama either. It takes too long to pack away after training. Then again, I make no claims about being an advanced student.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, even that looks iffy to me. I would need to see Aikido out of its element, going up against a completely different style.
> 
> Like this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Aikido didn't fair well in that exchange.



I am happy with it being trained in a manner where they pull it off when someone is trying to stop them.


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## drop bear

drop bear said:


> I am happy with it being trained in a manner where they pull it off when someone is trying to stop them.



As far as the Turkish wrestler goes. He could have been just better. My coach does that to the majority  bjj black belts he encounters his coach demolishes every open grappling tournament he enters.  They are sneakily phenomenal grapplers. But both present as these goobers Who look like they have walked off the street.


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## Drose427

drop bear said:


> As far as the Turkish wrestler goes. He could have been just better. My coach does that to the majority  bjj black belts he encounters his coach demolishes every open grappling tournament he enters.  They are sneakily phenomenal grapplers. But both present as these goobers Who look like they have walked off the street.



Well, in the video its fairly obvious _that _was an instructional demo, not a realistic match.


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## K-man

Drose427 said:


> Well, in the video its fairly obvious _that _was an instructional demo, not a realistic match.


How do you figure that? Surely not because the students were wildly applauding their fellow student being rolled. He might have been a bully.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> As far as the Turkish wrestler goes. He could have been just better. My coach does that to the majority  bjj black belts he encounters his coach demolishes every open grappling tournament he enters.  They are sneakily phenomenal grapplers. But both present as these goobers Who look like they have walked off the street.




You do know what was going on in that video right?


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You do know what was going on in that video right?


 
Looked like a bit of ad hoc sparring during a demo.


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## Tez3

Ad hoc? 'for one purpose only'
I don't think you _do_ understand what the video was about.


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## Hanzou

K-man said:


> You bag every other style. Aikido is not a style suited for sport and Tomiki aikido is not typical of Aikido. When you look at the rules of competition you would see why I think it's not particularly useful unless you want to compete with other like minded people. You won't see Aikido in a NHB competition. We don't train for that.



Isn't that a cop out though? What makes Aikido unsuitable for fighting against an aggressive opponent? If you're fighting someone on the street, they're going to be swinging on you similar to how a boxer or MMA fighter would.



> Mate, you claim to be a Shodan in your karate. Does that make you an advanced student? Not from your understanding of karate that you have demonstrated here.



Considering that mat the time of my departure I was a step away from instructor rank, yes I would consider myself advanced.



> I have trained with a lot of high ranked Aikidoka and very few of them are at a level where their techniques are effective. Sure they will probably work against untrained people and that is all most people want. That means nothing if that is the training that keeps them fit and makes them happy. For me, I don't train that way and my students keep me honest.  If I can't make my techniques work I'm out of business. My Krav guys come from all areas of the MAs. At present they represent karate, Muay Thai, MMA, BJJ and boxing as well as those just off the street. Then, if you came to my aikido class you wouldn't see me in a hakama either. It takes too long to pack away after training. Then again, I make no claims about being an advanced student.



That's great. I don't really see what any of that has to do with the lack of Aikidoka fighting against non-compliant opponents from other styles. This situation tends to facilitate schools such as the one in the OP.

Maybe Bas Rutten can shine some light on this phenomenon;


----------



## Spinedoc

Hanzou said:


> Isn't that a cop out though? What makes Aikido unsuitable for fighting against an aggressive opponent? If you're fighting someone on the street, they're going to be swinging on you similar to how a boxer or MMA fighter would.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering that mat the time of my departure I was a step away from instructor rank, yes I would consider myself advanced.
> 
> 
> 
> That's great. I don't really see what any of that has to do with the lack of Aikidoka fighting against non-compliant opponents from other styles. This situation tends to facilitate schools such as the one in the OP.
> 
> Maybe Bas Rutten can shine some light on this phenomenon;




Well, for starters, one mistake would be to assume that anyone in Aikido cares anything about what Bas Rutten says. To be honest, I didn't even know who he was and had to google him. Seems like a blowhard to me, but eh? Who knows....

Aikido is non competitive and takes years, IMO 7 or more, until you get really adept enough to use it in violent encounters. By that time, how many aikidoka who have been training in a non competitive format are going to be willing to then engage in competition?

Also, have you been in any street fights? I only ask, because I was in multiple fights back in my late teens and early 20's. I never saw anyone swing at me like an MMA fighter or boxer would. Most were undisciplined and swung wildly hoping to god that they hit something. I never saw anyone guard with their hands up...if they did, they dropped them the second they went in for a swing! I was also in the military and was in more than a few altercations in the military (drunken sailor things on the weekends), I never saw anyone fight like they did in a boxing match with the exception of one person......and he was the base boxing champ, he also just about knocked my *** out and I ended up with 3 stitches above my right eye because of him.

Here's the thing with Aikido. IMO, Aikido only works with a committed attack, if someone is just jabbing at you, and not committing to an attack, well....personally I would just step back and let them either commit or not, but you're not going to be able to use Aikido until they commit.

Personally, I hope I never fight again, and would never go looking for fights to "prove" that my Aikido works, and I would also argue that any ridiculous match in a ring is hardly proof of ANY martial arts effectiveness for fighting.

I'm a healthcare practitioner and researcher. There is a significant danger in extrapolating results from one setting to another. IE; Hyaluronic acid injections work great in the treatment of mild to moderate knee OA, ergo, hyaluronic acid injections work great in the treatment of mild to moderate OA everywhere in the body.....(they don't)....Or, X medication works great for the treatment of hypertension in patients with renal artery stenosis, ergo X medication works great in the treatment of all types of hypertension.....

Anytime a researcher or physician tries to make these claims, they are decidedly derided in the academic community for making errors in assumption and faulty conclusions.

It's the same with this.  Making those sorts of extrapolations is akin the "No True Scotsman" type of logical fallacy. You can't make the conclusions that I keep seeing on this board with regard to MMA and MA effectiveness.

All you can conclude is that Martial Arts that are represented well and work well within the MMA context are well suited to MMA. THAT'S IT.....You can't take it any further without committing a whole bunch of errors of assumption.


----------



## Tez3

Spinedoc said:


> Seems like a blowhard to me, but eh?



To be honest he's not but what happens is that certain people take what he says out of context to mean what they want it to mean. They ignore anything he says about traditional styles that they don't agree with, his name gets bandied around a lot and it does damage his reputation. Makes people think he's just a muscle bound MMA fighter when he actually does have a lot of experience in out of MMA fights and self defence.


----------



## Hanzou

Spinedoc said:


> All you can conclude is that Martial Arts that are represented well and work well within the MMA context are well suited to MMA. THAT'S IT.....You can't take it any further without committing a whole bunch of errors of assumption.



Well that's the question; What makes Aikido unsuited for MMA outside of the personal desires of its exponents? Lack of aggressiveness? Steven Segal's style of Akido is quite aggressive, but you don't see any of his students in MMA either.


----------



## Tez3

I do MMA, we train fighters and do all the usual things one associates with MMA. Our fighters don't worry about what styles are considered 'suitable' for MMA and what aren't. They are competitive people ( several of them are quite non aggressive btw) who enjoy what they do, they don't criticise others who do others styles, they'll have a look to see if there's anything they can use but it doesn't bother them that others train stuff they don't This constant badgering on here about MMA is just going to make people think that all MMAers are mongs who only care about bad mouthing other styles. I resent that. So far we've had interruptions on various style's threads telling us that WC, Aikido, Aikido and TKD are all useless because it's not used in MMA. Apart from the fact that's not true why does it matter when people obviously enjoy their training, they don't want to compete and are happy with their style. As our MMA guys say 'STFU and train', leave people to do what they do. Crack on Aikido people, not all MMAers criticise everything others do, in fact a lot of  us appreciate different styles even if we don't do them.


----------



## Drose427

Tez3 said:


> I do MMA, we train fighters and do all the usual things one associates with MMA. Our fighters don't worry about what styles are considered 'suitable' for MMA and what aren't. They are competitive people ( several of them are quite non aggressive btw) who enjoy what they do, they don't criticise others who do others styles, they'll have a look to see if there's anything they can use but it doesn't bother them that others train stuff they don't This constant badgering on here about MMA is just going to make people think that all MMAers are mongs who only care about bad mouthing other styles. I resent that. So far we've had interruptions on various style's threads telling us that WC, Aikido, Aikido and TKD are all useless because it's not used in MMA. Apart from the fact that's not true why does it matter when people obviously enjoy their training, they don't want to compete and are happy with their style. As our MMA guys say 'STFU and train', leave people to do what they do. Crack on Aikido people, not all MMAers criticise everything others do, in fact a lot of  us appreciate different styles even if we don't do them.



This is my experience as well. I've never met someone who trains and competes in MMA or Kickboxing bash TMAS like some folks here. 

They don't really care what the popular opinion of it is, they just wanna train it and find something that they feel they can use personally.

A lot of my MMA buddies have asked me to teach them our roundhouse and front kick because of our high knee raise. The chambers the same in all our kicks. But, the chamber comes up in the opponents blindspot if they arent too far away.

They get tired of their Muay Thai roundhouses being read and bocked so easily, or the rigidity of the kick, and wanna mix in other ways of kicking.


There's a reason some of the best MMA guys tend to have several Black Belts.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> I do MMA, we train fighters and do all the usual things one associates with MMA. Our fighters don't worry about what styles are considered 'suitable' for MMA and what aren't. They are competitive people ( several of them are quite non aggressive btw) who enjoy what they do, they don't criticise others who do others styles, they'll have a look to see if there's anything they can use but it doesn't bother them that others train stuff they don't This constant badgering on here about MMA is just going to make people think that all MMAers are mongs who only care about bad mouthing other styles. I resent that. So far we've had interruptions on various style's threads telling us that WC, Aikido, Aikido and TKD are all useless because it's not used in MMA. Apart from the fact that's not true why does it matter when people obviously enjoy their training, they don't want to compete and are happy with their style. As our MMA guys say 'STFU and train', leave people to do what they do. Crack on Aikido people, not all MMAers criticise everything others do, in fact a lot of  us appreciate different styles even if we don't do them.





Drose427 said:


> This is my experience as well. I've never met someone who trains and competes in MMA or Kickboxing bash TMAS like some folks here.
> 
> They don't really care what the popular opinion of it is, they just wanna train it and find something that they feel they can use personally.
> 
> A lot of my MMA buddies have asked me to teach them our roundhouse and front kick because of our high knee raise. The chambers the same in all our kicks. But, the chamber comes up in the opponents blindspot if they arent too far away.
> 
> They get tired of their Muay Thai roundhouses being read and bocked so easily, or the rigidity of the kick, and wanna mix in other ways of kicking.
> 
> 
> There's a reason some of the best MMA guys tend to have several Black Belts.



I am a TCMA guy and I agree, I have had long conversation with MMA guys about taijiquan and qigong because ultimately what they are looking for is a way to help them win their next match. Even talked with an MMA guy who was big on training qigong because he felt it help him relax before, during and after a match. Not once has any *"real"* MMA person I talked with ever bad mouthed or criticized TMA.


----------



## K-man

I think this thread has gone the way of the rest. Will the last person please flush. Thanks guys you've done it again.


----------



## Tez3

We've taken some of the MMA fighters along with us on seminars where there's been different styles of martial arts, one seminar had instructors teaching Bo, the fighters enjoyed that as much as the rest of us even though you can't use weapons in the cage lol. Those who do MMA are perfectly capable of defending themselves outside the cage, they can 'switch off' the rules and can forget about having a ref but the fighters I know (and I know many,) enjoy learning any techniques that is viable either for just SD or that can also be used in competition so while they do concentrate on their own thing they are appreciative of techniques from Aikido and other styles. One of the things about being a good MMA fighter is having an inquisitive mind.


----------



## Xue Sheng

K-man said:


> I think this thread has gone the way of the rest. Will the last person please flush. Thanks guys you've done it again.



What did I do?


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> What did I do?




Not you, the usual suspects.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> I do MMA, we train fighters and do all the usual things one associates with MMA. Our fighters don't worry about what styles are considered 'suitable' for MMA and what aren't. They are competitive people ( several of them are quite non aggressive btw) who enjoy what they do, they don't criticise others who do others styles, they'll have a look to see if there's anything they can use but it doesn't bother them that others train stuff they don't This constant badgering on here about MMA is just going to make people think that all MMAers are mongs who only care about bad mouthing other styles. I resent that. So far we've had interruptions on various style's threads telling us that WC, Aikido, Aikido and TKD are all useless because it's not used in MMA. Apart from the fact that's not true why does it matter when people obviously enjoy their training, they don't want to compete and are happy with their style. As our MMA guys say 'STFU and train', leave people to do what they do. Crack on Aikido people, not all MMAers criticise everything others do, in fact a lot of  us appreciate different styles even if we don't do them.



Again, where's the bad mouthing? I'm simply asking a question because I've noticed a distinct lack of Aikido presence in MMA. If Aikido can stop a guy from caving your face in, why can't it do the same thing in a cage or ring?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Again, where's the bad mouthing? I'm simply asking a question because I've noticed a distinct lack of Aikido presence in MMA. If Aikido can stop a guy from caving your face in, why can't it do the same thing in a cage or ring?




Disingenuous reply. If this were a football game (soccer) you'd be there shrugging telling the ref you didn't do anything as the player you brought down was writhing on the floor in pain.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


>


Thanks for that! A couple of years ago I was searching for good clips of Toshu Randori but not having much luck. I guess some have been added in this last year or so. Cool match!



Hanzou said:


> Yeah, even that looks iffy to me. I would need to see Aikido out of its element, going up against a completely different style.





Hanzou said:


> I'm simply saying that it would be more interesting to see Aikido being utilized against an opponent that isn't doing Aikido. Preferably in a NHB competition.


I wonder if the extreme sweatiness of the fighters in MMA competition might make it harder to apply some of these techniques.

It would be interesting to see a BJJ competitor who was also proficient in Tomiki Aikido slip in some of these techniques in a grappling match. Unfortunately, it's not one of the more widely practiced forms of Aikido so there probably aren't that many people out there with the right skill set.



K-man said:


> Competition Aikido is just that .. competition Aikido. It was never sanctioned by Ueshiba and to me it has no place.



To each their own. If I had good Tomiki Aikido instruction available to me, I would definitely check it out.



K-man said:


> Quite understandable. It took me over seven years to be able to do it against a non compliant person.



Based on my own experience reaching proficiency (or not) in various skills, I bet I would reach the point fo being able to apply that against a non-compliant person much quicker if I trained like the Tomiki guys than if I trained like most of the other Aikido practitioners I've watched training.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wonder if the extreme sweatiness of the fighters in MMA competition might make it harder to apply some of these techniques.



It could be but also MMA fighters are encouraged to do 'entertaining' techniques, ones that get the crowd going. Spectators don't pay a lot of money to watch extremely short fights, they want to be entertained with lots of punching and kicking, give and take. Many MMA fans still don't get the ground work and don't like too much of it, they shout to have the fighters stood up if they thinking it's boring which is when the fighters are working for position etc but it doesn't look like they are doing much. Fights that take place mainly on the ground, good BJJ or wrestling, aren't appreciated much either, sad to say many 'fans' want to see fighters going toe to toe, Aikido doesn't deliver that.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wonder if the extreme sweatiness of the fighters in MMA competition might make it harder to apply some of these techniques.



If we are talking about why standing arm locks don't work it is defended with tyrannosaurus arms.


----------



## Tez3

When people talk about MMA and what works I think they often forget how much input the promoters have in what you see. Promoters when matching fights have a list of fighters weights and experience of course but they also have a list of crowd pleasing fighters, those that will put bums on seats. fighters know this and tailor their fighting styles towards pleasing promoters as much as winning fights after all if you can't sell seats you aren't going to get fights. They want 'show business' not necessarily a fighter who is extremely talented but very boring. The cry goes up that you don't see X or Y styles working in the cage, the truth is they are very likely to but are also likely to be fast and efficient not something a promoter wants. he wants three/four rounds of entertainment not one minute of round one then endex. It's a nightmare when you have finishes in the first round, your show which you thought would last all evening lasts a third of the time and you end up with long intervals between each fight plus unhappy bored customers.
There is far more than 'pure' fighting going on in MMA comps, it's unfair to start saying that styles don't work because you don't see them as they are usually in the cage, the chances are though that you may well see some part of any style in there...as long as it's entertaining as well as useful. people forget that as much as anything MMA is a business not just a competitive martial arts style.


----------



## K-man

Xue Sheng said:


> What did I do?


Mate, you produced nothing but your best effort, but the forum is like a farmer planting a crop. He plants the seeds, rains come and the crop grows. All looks great. Then along comes someone with no knowledge of cropping and sprays it with weed killer.

The ground here is now contaminated, I'll plant some more seeds elsewhere.


----------



## K-man

Tony Dismukes said:


> It would be interesting to see a BJJ competitor who was also proficient in Tomiki Aikido slip in some of these techniques in a grappling match. Unfortunately, it's not one of the more widely practiced forms of Aikido so there probably aren't that many people out there with the right skill set.
> 
> To each their own. If I had good Tomiki Aikido instruction available to me, I would definitely check it out.


I doubt it. Compared to BJJ for competition this sort of competition just doesn't stack up. The rules basically preclude grappling so you have to catch and throw.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Based on my own experience reaching proficiency (or not) in various skills, I bet I would reach the point fo being able to apply that against a non-compliant person much quicker if I trained like the Tomiki guys than if I trained like most of the other Aikido practitioners I've watched training.


I doubt it. I have a friend, highly ranked, over 20 years of practice, competes in Japan in the world titles and still can't perform ikkyo on a resisting opponent. Good luck though.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

While not Aikido here is a pretty long video of a BJJ practitioner who utilizes wrist locks in his training, competing, etc.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Standing arm locks work just fine but my personal opinion is that they work best when you have already lit the other guy up.  If he is fuzzy on his feet then they work just fine.


----------



## K-man

Brian R. VanCise said:


> While not Aikido here is a pretty long video of a BJJ practitioner who utilizes wrist locks in his training, competing, etc.


You would be surprised at how much overlap there is and if you look at the videos that Xue posted on Chin Na you will see the same lock time after time.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Standing arm locks work just fine but my personal opinion is that they work best when you have already lit the other guy up.  If he is fuzzy on his feet then they work just fine.


That is true for all Aikido techniques. Throw an atemi and you get a response that allows you to perform the technique. My measure as to whether you can do it properly or not is to be able to perform the technique softly and slowly without the atemi and against an experienced resisting partner. The actual physical movement of ikkyo you can learn in 15 minutes. Making it work on a non compliant partner takes years. Even the first technique I got took me fourteen months judging by the above criteria. I remember it like yesterday. Aikido doesn't give up its secrets readily.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> When people talk about MMA and what works I think they often forget how much input the promoters have in what you see. Promoters when matching fights have a list of fighters weights and experience of course but they also have a list of crowd pleasing fighters, those that will put bums on seats. fighters know this and tailor their fighting styles towards pleasing promoters as much as winning fights after all if you can't sell seats you aren't going to get fights. They want 'show business' not necessarily a fighter who is extremely talented but very boring. The cry goes up that you don't see X or Y styles working in the cage, the truth is they are very likely to but are also likely to be fast and efficient not something a promoter wants. he wants three/four rounds of entertainment not one minute of round one then endex. It's a nightmare when you have finishes in the first round, your show which you thought would last all evening lasts a third of the time and you end up with long intervals between each fight plus unhappy bored customers.
> There is far more than 'pure' fighting going on in MMA comps, it's unfair to start saying that styles don't work because you don't see them as they are usually in the cage, the chances are though that you may well see some part of any style in there...as long as it's entertaining as well as useful. people forget that as much as anything MMA is a business not just a competitive martial arts style.



If you were talking about the ufc then there is an element. But even then I am sure ronda rousey will get another fight even when she finished the last one in 14 seconds.

But you don't see certain things at any level of mma competition. C class beginner fights where everybody is a bit crap would be the perfect vehicle for aikido to do a come try. And they don't.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Standing arm locks work just fine but my personal opinion is that they work best when you have already lit the other guy up.  If he is fuzzy on his feet then they work just fine.



Then you would still see them in mma because of the hitting.


----------



## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> Based on my own experience reaching proficiency (or not) in various skills, I bet I would reach the point fo being able to apply that against a non-compliant person much quicker if I trained like the Tomiki guys than if I trained like most of the other Aikido practitioners I've watched training.




Aikido was more striking when it started than later on Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.

So a lot of Aikido you have today is less on striking. The striking it does have is more for blocking than doing harm.

Some of these combative schools not only are using striking to injured or killed the person but also set up person for wrist grab.

Ljubomir Vračarević, a self-defence instructor from Serbia uses lot of dancing around the person and seem to make a grab from sides than the front.

That may be why the fast pace moves around the person. May be Ljubomir Vračarević thinks it is easier to grab from side than the front.

I think the problem with Aikido that some people say is it takes 10 to 15 years for it to work. Even so many people may not get it, because nobody that is skilled is going to pull out their hand in fight for you to grab.

Boxers or wing chun hardly bring their arm out and strike too fast.

May be that is why Ljubomir Vračarević t is trying  do these fast dancing around moves to confuse them and try to gram from side when he pulls back his fist than other way around. Standing in front and trying to grab and douching hits at the same time.


----------



## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> Aikido was more striking when it started than later on Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.
> 
> So a lot of Aikido you have today is less on striking. The striking it does have is more for blocking than doing harm.
> 
> Some of these combative schools not only are using striking to injured or killed the person but also set up person for wrist grab.
> 
> Ljubomir Vračarević, a self-defence instructor from Serbia uses lot of dancing around the person and seem to make a grab from sides than the front.
> 
> That may be why the fast pace moves around the person. May be Ljubomir Vračarević thinks it is easier to grab from side than the front.
> 
> I think the problem with Aikido that some people say is it takes 10 to 15 years for it to work. Even so many people may not get it, because nobody that is skilled is going to pull out their hand in fight for you to grab.
> 
> Boxers or wing chun hardly bring their arm out and strike too fast.
> 
> May be that is why Ljubomir Vračarević t is trying  do these fast dancing around moves to confuse them and try to gram from side when he pulls back his fist than other way around. Standing in front and trying to grab and douching hits at the same time.



Umm, well, let's address a few things here.

1. The striking in Aikido is the same as it was pre WWII. O'Sensei did not soften techniques very much, see my other thread where we can find 82% of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques in modern day Aikikai Aikido. I think people are misinterpreting the "softening" of Aikido. The techniques were not substantially altered, especially if you look at Saito Sensei's records and replication of O'Sensei's aikido. What was softened was the intent. This is the main difference between Daito Ryu and Aikido, intent. Not technique, not ability, but intent.

2. Aikido uses atemi (strikes) to set up techniques....ALL....THE....TIME. In fact, I would argue that many techniques in Aikido will not work without the atemi. Katatedori Shihonage for example...if you don't hit me in the face, there's no way you're getting me into shihonage.

3. Aikido grabs from the sides, front, back, etc. Aikido techniques are sword based, which means many of the techniques proceed with motions in how you would move with a sword, it also means, for uke, that front on attacks and grabs are not always a great idea except in the lower kyu ranks when you are learning. One exercise that we do and preach this on is morotedori kokyunage. Nage has a sword, Uke is trying to grab nage's arm to keep him from using the sword.....we always teach to approach from the side...may only be slightly to the side, but definitely from the side.

4. Agreed on the time to become really good at Aikido. Maybe a little less, but still takes a long time...To me, that is the single best thing about it. It's a lifetime of study.

5. Aikido involves only a few grabs, not as many as most people think. For example, kosedori ikkyo, while uke will grab my hand, I don't grab back, in fact, I take him to the ground hard and don't grab his arm at all, his contact does the work for me. Until you experience it, you won't know what I mean by that.

6. All Aikido is constantly in motion. Tenkan, Tenkan, Tenkan,

Just some thoughts.

Mike


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Then you would still see them in mma because of the hitting.



These locks have been used in Law Enforcement for years.   I personally have used them myself during work.  As a doorman I would assume you have as well because most bouncers I know have used them when escorting people out?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

K-man said:


> You would be surprised at how much overlap there is and if you look at the videos that Xue posted on Chin Na you will see the same lock time after time.
> 
> That is true for all Aikido techniques. Throw an atemi and you get a response that allows you to perform the technique. My measure as to whether you can do it properly or not is to be able to perform the technique softly and slowly without the atemi and against an experienced resisting partner. The actual physical movement of ikkyo you can learn in 15 minutes. Making it work on a non compliant partner takes years. Even the first technique I got took me fourteen months judging by the above criteria. I remember it like yesterday. Aikido doesn't give up its secrets readily.



I would absolutely agree K-man!


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> If you were talking about the ufc then there is an element. But even then I am sure ronda rousey will get another fight even when she finished the last one in 14 seconds.
> 
> But you don't see certain things at any level of mma competition. C class beginner fights where everybody is a bit crap would be the perfect vehicle for aikido to do a come try. And they don't.




Have you promoted any fights shows? I have, a good many from amateur fights to pro fights, I think you have perceptions that aren't backed by facts. I'm also beginning to doubt that you actually know what MMA is.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> These locks have been used in Law Enforcement for years.   I personally have used them myself during work.  As a doorman I would assume you have as well because most bouncers I know have used them when escorting people out?



correct but the defining factor of a lock working cant be hitting. If competitions with hitting and locks. You don't see the locks.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Have you promoted any fights shows? I have, a good many from amateur fights to pro fights, I think you have perceptions that aren't backed by facts. I'm also beginning to doubt that you actually know what MMA is.



Ronda rousey finished her last fight in 14 seconds is a fact. You doubting I do mma is perception not backed by facts.

So your doubts are unfounded.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> correct but the defining factor of a lock working cant be hitting. If competitions with hitting and locks. You don't see the locks.




Why are you fixated on competitions, if you look at the title of the OP it's 'Self Defence' not competitions. Your first sentence doesn't make any sense language wise.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Ronda rousey finished her last fight in 14 seconds is a fact. You doubting I do mma is perception not backed by facts.



What has Rousey got to do with Aikido?

"Do" is not the same as "understand". I didn't say you don't 'do' MMA, I said I doubt you *understand* what it actually is.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> What has Rousey got to do with Aikido?
> 
> "Do" is not the same as "understand". I didn't say you don't 'do' MMA, I said I doubt you *understand* what it actually is.



you raised the subject.

"necessarily a fighter who is extremely talented but very boring. The cry goes up that you don't see X or Y styles working in the cage, the truth is they are very likely to but are also likely to be fast and efficient not something a promoter wants. he wants three/four rounds of entertainment not one minute of round one then endex. It's a nightmare when you have finishes in the first round, your show which you thought would last all evening lasts a third of the time and you end up with long intervals between each fight plus unhappy bored customers."

Ronda rousey finished her fight in the first round. At top level competition.

So I seriously doubt that you don't see akido guys in mma because they finish fights too fast.



And you doubt about whether i understand mma is still based on your perception and still wrong.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Why are you fixated on competitions, if you look at the title of the OP it's 'Self Defence' not competitions. Your first sentence doesn't make any sense language wise.



It doesn't matter if it is a competition or not. It is an example of an environment that allowed hitting and arm locks. And does not have many arm locks.

So hitting cannot be the main factor regarding arm lock success.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> So hitting cannot be the main factor regarding arm lock success.



That sentence still doesn't make any sense. who's supposed to be hitting who? Is anyone hitting anyone? What do you mean?




drop bear said:


> Ronda rousey finished her fight in the first round. At top level competition.



You've missed my point...again. I said a promoter doesn't *want* all the fights finishing in the first round, that one fight on the card finished in the first round is neither here nor there. It also doesn't mean that the promoter was pleased it finished in the first round, I doubt they were. It changes all the timing right though the card, either you bring the next fight forward risking the fighters saying they aren't ready yet or you have an interval where you didn't plan one and risk a crowd becoming restless. The fans of a particular fighter ie Rousey might be pleased she finished it in the first round but promoters find it annoying.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> That sentence still doesn't make any sense. who's supposed to be hitting who? Is anyone hitting anyone? What do you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've missed my point...again. I said a promoter doesn't *want* all the fights finishing in the first round, that one fight on the card finished in the first round is neither here nor there. It also doesn't mean that the promoter was pleased it finished in the first round, I doubt they were. It changes all the timing right though the card, either you bring the next fight forward risking the fighters saying they aren't ready yet or you have an interval where you didn't plan one and risk a crowd becoming restless. The fans of a particular fighter ie Rousey might be pleased she finished it in the first round but promoters find it annoying.



And so you think fighters are not employing every method at their disposal to finish that fight if they can because they are concerned about the feelings of the promoter.

And then we are linking this to the idea that akido is so effective that it would finish fights just too early for mma to continue to be a spectator sport.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> And so you think fighters are not employing every method at their disposal to finish that fight if they can because they are concerned about the feelings of the promoter.
> 
> And then we are linking this to the idea that akido is so effective that it would finish fights just too early for mma to continue to be a spectator sport.



Well fighters are paid to entertain, i mean they get a bonus for being more entertaining in the cage. 

Why do you think some fighters act the way they do? Like macgregor?

Rouseys last fight isnt a great example of your point. She wasn't going for a specific tech, they were just scrambling and they rolled and fell into that position...

Fighters make less in bonuses if they end it in the first minute than they would ending it in the last minute.

While they may not care about the promoters feelings, (although they should since UFC is laying their checks) they have the same goal of giving a show.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> And so you think fighters are not employing every method at their disposal to finish that fight if they can because they are concerned about the feelings of the promoter.
> 
> And then we are linking this to the idea that akido is so effective that it would finish fights just too early for mma to continue to be a spectator sport.




Fighters often have priorities that are at variance with those of the promoters. I can't see what 'feelings' have to do with anything, fight promotions are business, we are talking about money and fighters, if they want fights will listen to what the promoters want. Feelings don't come into it, what a bizarre idea!

I don't know what 'you' are linking to what, but I don't use the royal 'we' when discussing anything.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Fighters often have priorities that are at variance with those of the promoters. I can't see what 'feelings' have to do with anything, fight promotions are business, we are talking about money and fighters, if they want fights will listen to what the promoters want. Feelings don't come into it, what a bizarre idea!
> 
> I don't know what 'you' are linking to what, but I don't use the royal 'we' when discussing anything.



You are talking about fixing fights. If a promoter is forcing a fighter to extend the fight intentionally that is immoral and illegal.

I know our local promoter does nothing to influence the length of a fight.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> You are talking about fixing fights. If a promoter is forcing a fighter to extend the fight intentionally that is immoral and illegal.
> 
> I know our local promoter does nothing to influence the length of a fight.



No, fighters aren't being told to dive. They're not forced either. They can end the fight in .5. They just forfeit entertainment and technique bonuses.


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> No, fighters aren't being told to dive. They're not forced either. They can end the fight in .5. They just forfeit entertainment and technique bonuses.



Ok. The way to professionally make sure that a fight goes the distance is to make sure that the fighters are evenly matched.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> You are talking about fixing fights. If a promoter is forcing a fighter to extend the fight intentionally that is immoral and illegal.
> 
> I know our local promoter does nothing to influence the length of a fight.




For crying out loud, do you understand nothing of what is written? NO I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT FIXING FIGHTS.
I said nothing about a promoter forcing any fighter to extend a fight, I'm saying that promoters aren't too happy when a fight finishes early. Think about it because I have already explained but will do so again. When fights finish early it changes the running order of the card, when a fight finishes early we are faced with bringing the next on the card in early or having an unscheduled interval. There are problems in either but it's all in the game. A fight could last longer than we'd like because of injury that doesn't meant we fix anything. Not being too happy about something is not the same as trying to fix fights besides we use reputable and honest refs who would most certainly not be amenable to fight fixing. You have some very odd ideas about what is meant when someone writes something. I really do think you must misunderstand just so you can make outrageous statements... which is trolling.


----------



## Drose427

drop bear said:


> Ok. The way to professionally make sure that a fight goes the distance is to make sure that the fighters are evenly matched.



You'd think, but the card doesn't always end up that way does it?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> For crying out loud, do you understand nothing of what is written? NO I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT FIXING FIGHTS.
> I said nothing about a promoter forcing any fighter to extend a fight, I'm saying that promoters aren't too happy when a fight finishes early. Think about it because I have already explained but will do so again. When fights finish early it changes the running order of the card, when a fight finishes early we are faced with bringing the next on the card in early or having an unscheduled interval. There are problems in either but it's all in the game. A fight could last longer than we'd like because of injury that doesn't meant we fix anything. Not being too happy about something is not the same as trying to fix fights besides we use reputable and honest refs who would most certainly not be amenable to fight fixing. You have some very odd ideas about what is meant when someone writes something. I really do think you must misunderstand just so you can make outrageous statements... which is trolling.



look seriously tez. You are making no sense.
UFC 178 Post-Fight Bonus Report - Ultimate Fighting Championship-Mobile
just randomly pulled up. Here are fight bonuses paid to fighters who had first round wins.

so the ufc isn't upset that fights are finishing early.


----------



## drop bear

Drose427 said:


> You'd think, but the card doesn't always end up that way does it?



That is on the poor performance of the promoter.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Ok. The way to professionally make sure that a fight goes the distance is to make sure that the fighters are evenly matched.




Well DUR. That's my original point, that promoters will match for the optimum fight, one that is entertaining, lasts the distance and gives an unambiguous result. That's Plan A, *it won't always work that way* of course but that's promoting.  And that's why a pure Aikidoka won't be invited to fight anytime soon, nor any purists to be honest. People want to see certain things when they go to an MMA fight show. It's no disrespect to Aikido when I say that in it's pure form it's not 'entertaining'.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> look seriously tez. You are making no sense.
> UFC 178 Post-Fight Bonus Report - Ultimate Fighting Championship-Mobile
> just randomly pulled up. Here are fight bonuses paid to fighters who had first round wins.
> 
> so the ufc isn't upset that fights are finishing early.




Well of course the UFC is the be all and end all of MMA isn't it? What happens there is what happens everywhere...well no actually it's not. You can be sure that whoever is directing the fight night at the UFC, on the night is rushing around to re arrange things when a fight finishes early, it's nothing to do with whether the UFC is 'happy' or not. A couple of early fight finishes if they are entertaining enough is fine, but even the UFC wouldn't be happy if everyone of the fights on a card finished early nor would the fans. If you've paid over £75 for a tickets and every fight finished in the first minute of the first round I can tell you... you would be unhappy.

You also have to understand there is the fighters and coaches point of view where the ideal is to finish the fight early and there's the promoters point of view where they want fights to go the distance or very nearly. The UFC's ideal is to sell a lot of tickets and merchandise, that's what it is about.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> That is on the poor performance of the promoter.




No, it isn't. Again you are showing that you don't know what you are talking about.

We had a young fighter, he was matched again Phil 'Billy' Harris, on paper Phil was the favourite, experienced, good Judo and striking, older more experience ( he went on to go into the UFC) our lad KO'd him with a flying knee in the first couple of minutes of the first round. We couldn't have guessed that would happen, it shouldn't have really but it did. As coaches it was brilliant, as promoters we had to fill some twenty  minutes of 'spare' time.

Look down to where he fought David Smyth Phil Billy Harris MMA Stats Pictures News Videos Biography - Sherdog.com

*Now perhaps we could get back to the OP?*


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Well of course the UFC is the be all and end all of MMA isn't it? What happens there is what happens everywhere...well no actually it's not. You can be sure that whoever is directing the fight night at the UFC, on the night is rushing around to re arrange things when a fight finishes early, it's nothing to do with whether the UFC is 'happy' or not. A couple of early fight finishes if they are entertaining enough is fine, but even the UFC wouldn't be happy if everyone of the fights on a card finished early nor would the fans. If you've paid over £75 for a tickets and every fight finished in the first minute of the first round I can tell you... you would be unhappy.
> 
> You also have to understand there is the fighters and coaches point of view where the ideal is to finish the fight early and there's the promoters point of view where they want fights to go the distance or very nearly. The UFC's ideal is to sell a lot of tickets and merchandise, that's what it is about.



The ufc is a pretty good example of what you are suggesting is not normal.

My counter theory will be at this stage is that if akido could finish fights early we would see more of it. Either by fighters who want to guarantee a win rather than look for a bonus or by fighters in the last round looking to end the fight. And yet you still don't see aikido.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> No, it isn't. Again you are showing that you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> We had a young fighter, he was matched again Phil 'Billy' Harris, on paper Phil was the favourite, experienced, good Judo and striking, older more experience ( he went on to go into the UFC) our lad KO'd him with a flying knee in the first couple of minutes of the first round. We couldn't have guessed that would happen, it shouldn't have really but it did. As coaches it was brilliant, as promoters we had to fill some twenty  minutes of 'spare' time.
> 
> Look down to where he fought David Smyth Phil Billy Harris MMA Stats Pictures News Videos Biography - Sherdog.com
> 
> *Now perhaps we could get back to the OP?*



No fair enough that is s a legitimate factor.


----------



## jks9199

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I'm puzzled about what MMA card design and show running has to do with a new version of aikido.

Perhaps we can return to discussing the version of aikido demonstrated in the original post?  Or would you rather collect penalty points?  That option can certainly be arranged.  I trust I'm not being too obscure?  I can count on at least one RTM a day about MMA topics taking over threads, and I'm done with it.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
Administrator


----------



## Tez3

My fault it went to MMA card, I was trying to point out that Aikido in it's pure form wouldn't be suitable for MMA as it wasn't entertaining enough for promoters and it was not as some said because Aikido didn't work. Mea culpa. However I didn't bring up MMA in the first place.


----------



## drop bear

Some alive trained akido.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Drop Bear,

Regardless of your opinion they work very well when the opponent is struck.  Though that is just one factor in any application. (other factors like timing, distancing, angles, etc. all play a part as well)  Just because a competition allows hitting has no bearing on them working outside of competition in a real world application.  They work and I personally do not know a person working in corrections, law enforcement, as a doorman, etc. that has not utilized a come a long technique, standing armbar, wrist control, etc.   However, they are a harder skill to apply based on positional leverage with people standing up rather than braced on the ground or against a wall etc.  That is why they work better when people are fuzzy from being struck. 

Rory Miller had a DVD out on Joint Locks that he utilized during his extensive career in corrections:





Since you work as a doorman maybe you need some extra work in this area.

Here is a very basic joint manipulation turned into a standing armbar and used brutally in a mma competition:





Listen, we both watch mma, spar, and I have produced fighters that have been very successful in the ring. (one even holds two amature title belts at the moment)  You work on a door and I have past experience in a law enforcement position. (plus I grew up south of Flint and lived in Detroit two very dangerous places you may have heard of)  I have seen real world violence and yes some times it does look exactly like it does in the cage but other times it is drastically and dramatically different.  One of the worst things anyone can do as a martial practitioner is to be short sighted and try and fit everything into one little box.  MMA is in general an awesome form of training but certainly not the end all be all in the martial world.  If I had to have someone at my back in a life or death situation I would want their training to be predominantly Weapons first and empty hands secondary.  When I speak of weapons I mean firearms, edge and blunt tools specifically.  *Plus I would like them to have experience*!

*Saying all of the above good Aikido when performed correctly is devastating!*  You just have to look at what it was designed for to see how the principles and applications work.  Primarily it is a receiving and countering system that lends itself to being *very effective* when someone tries to grab you, etc.  While I do not train in Aikido I actually know several practitioner's who have used their skill sets during work.  They are very, very happy with their Aikido training and the results accomplished and they train to this day.  Try and broaden your perspective and look at systems other than mma with an open mind.


----------



## tshadowchaser

on the OP I feel that if the techniques in this new system work and can be instructed in a manner that students can understand and immolate then good for the instructor.  Why the system is being called Aikido instead of some other title for marketing I still do not understand but that is a different issue.  Improvement in Aikido was constantly being observed in the early days of the system as it went from a hard system of compliance to the peaceful gentle system we see today, so I see no reason someone well versed with years of experience trying to add to it


----------



## moonhill99

tshadowchaser said:


> on the OP I feel that if the techniques in this new system work and can be instructed in a manner that students can understand and immolate then good for the instructor.  Why the system is being called Aikido instead of some other title for marketing I still do not understand but that is a different issue.  Improvement in Aikido was constantly being observed in the early days of the system as it went from a hard system of compliance to the peaceful gentle system we see today, so I see no reason someone well versed with years of experience trying to add to it




I'm interested in Aikido and japanese jujutsu and into the more aggressive combat styles. Striking,take downs and more striking,holds,locks and submissions on the ground.

Good striking and blocking.

What would go well with  Aikido and japanese jujutsu is karate I say ‪Okinawan Karate‬.






Now this  is the level of striking and aggressive fighting I'm talking about!!!

Or Kenpo Karate






If I had to pick Karate I would go with the ‪Okinawan Karate‬.

If a person took Aikido or japanese jujutsu and any of these ‪Karate‬ and put two together, I think they would be more aggressive. And person will be taken down to ground faster.

Than the so many of the Aikido and japanese jujutsu schools that give you a water down version of striking and blocking these days.

Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The ‪Okinawan Karate‬ video above does look awesome.

And no I'm not into ultra aggressive fighting like sports ,tournaments,MMA, WWF,boxing,bare knuckle fighting and street fighting. That too much aggressive in my book.


----------



## moonhill99

tshadowchaser said:


> on the OP I feel that if the techniques in this new system work and can be instructed in a manner that students can understand and immolate then good for the instructor.  Why the system is being called Aikido instead of some other title for marketing I still do not understand but that is a different issue.  Improvement in Aikido was constantly being observed in the early days of the system as it went from a hard system of compliance to the peaceful gentle system we see today, so I see no reason someone well versed with years of experience trying to add to it



oh I will also add this new Aikido is bit more aggressive and faster speed but sill has peaceful gentle feel to it.

It not aggressive combat types.

They say they got school in Flordia? May be check it out.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Drop Bear,
> 
> Regardless of your opinion they work very well when the opponent is struck. Though that is just one factor in any application. (other factors like timing, distancing, angles, etc. all play a part as well) Just because a competition allows hitting has no bearing on them working outside of competition in a real world application. They work and I personally do not know a person working in corrections, law enforcement, as a doorman, etc. that has not utilized a come a long technique, standing armbar, wrist control, etc. However, they are a harder skill to apply based on positional leverage with people standing up rather than braced on the ground or against a wall etc. That is why they work better when people are fuzzy from being struck.



sorry. Yes the work better if i am also beating on a guy. But the reason you may see arm locks being more prevalent is not necessarily because you can hit raising the chance of a successful arm lock.

So for me the reason I successfully apply arm locks on people on the street is because i am forced to. Plain and simple.

It is a case where the rules dictate the technique.

Situational defence.

Now the highest success rate for arm locks in my experience is when you have another guy cranking his other arm.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> . Try and broaden your perspective and look at systems other than mma with an open mind.



Demonstrable under resistance is not mma.  

Testing a technique with resistance to see if it works is looking at other systems with an open mind.


----------



## K-man

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is a very basic joint manipulation turned into a standing armbar and used brutally in a mma competition:


This exact technique is used in Krav's 360 defence. In Aikido we don't normally do over hooks but the arm bar are still performed with the same rotation of the body.


----------



## drop bear

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Rory Miller had a DVD out on Joint Locks



I am moving away from this as a concept at Tha moment and instead adopting an almost bjj/wrestling approach where I am gaining a positional advantage and then applying the lock.

So I am trying with my whole body to isolate that arm and position him before i try to get that lock on.

So i can apply restraints because he is already trapped and not so much trying to trap him with the restraint. As such.

And he turned his back big time on that choke escape.


----------



## drop bear

Jugokan. They seem to go all right.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

drop bear said:


> Now the highest success rate for arm locks in my experience is when you have another guy cranking his other arm.



Yes, it is always good to have more than one person on your side applying a lock.  I have always had good success this way as well!


----------



## Jenna

moonhill99 said:


> If a person took Aikido or japanese jujutsu and any of these ‪Karate‬ and put two together, I think they would be more aggressive. And person will be taken down to ground faster.


yes, though this would not be Aikido.. it would entirely miss the ethos and core of Aikido completely.. it would be some thing completely other than Aikido.  Does this then belong in a discussion about Aikido at all I wonder? 

I fear it is either: 1. conceit / ignorance -or- 2. a genuine mastery / martial talent that causes a person to believe they can combine existing arts or otherwise drastically transform an existing art into a new AND BETTER art.. I do not claim to know which is the OP about..
Jx


----------



## drop bear

Jenna said:


> yes, though this would not be Aikido.. it would entirely miss the ethos and core of Aikido completely.. it would be some thing completely other than Aikido.  Does this then belong in a discussion about Aikido at all I wonder?
> 
> I fear it is either: 1. conceit / ignorance -or- 2. a genuine mastery / martial talent that causes a person to believe they can combine existing arts or otherwise drastically transform an existing art into a new AND BETTER art.. I do not claim to know which is the OP about..
> Jx



Yeah.....? He says tentatively.

If i cross trained i would generally be doing that with the intent of combining or drastically altering arts.

But i would be ego stroking if i then created drop bear fu.

there is probably a middle ground there somewhere.


----------



## moonhill99

Jenna said:


> yes, though this would not be Aikido.. it would entirely miss the ethos and core of Aikido completely.. it would be some thing completely other than Aikido.  Does this then belong in a discussion about Aikido at all I wonder?
> 
> I fear it is either: 1. conceit / ignorance -or- 2. a genuine mastery / martial talent that causes a person to believe they can combine existing arts or otherwise drastically transform an existing art into a new AND BETTER art.. I do not claim to know which is the OP about..
> Jx



Any mix art or mix system would not be real pure system. even this new Aikido or any Aikido school that use more hand striking than most school would not be a pure system.

It not really bad. But if person does not like change I can see he or she would not like that.


----------



## moonhill99

drop bear said:


> Yeah.....? He says tentatively.
> 
> If i cross trained i would generally be doing that with the intent of combining or drastically altering arts.
> 
> But i would be ego stroking if i then created drop bear fu.
> 
> there is probably a middle ground there somewhere.



If you are talking about kicking or using hand striking so the person puts up his hands to block so you can do a wrist grab than yes. Or a boxer striking like a wild man making a wrist grab harder.

If the kicking or using hand striking is way more to set up for grab than yes but not the core of the fighting.

On the ground they could use striking to hurt to injure the person.

Any other system would be mix system and not a pure system.


----------



## Jenna

drop bear said:


> Yeah.....? He says tentatively.
> 
> If i cross trained i would generally be doing that with the intent of combining or drastically altering arts.
> 
> But i would be ego stroking if i then created drop bear fu.
> 
> there is probably a middle ground there somewhere.


yes if you cross train then you are doing neither Art X nor Art Y and but instead your own new combination Art XY or YX depending on which constitutes the greater proportion.. and so if this new combination is NOT drop bear fu then what is it you are practicing? Jx


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> Any mix art or mix system would not be real pure system. even this new Aikido or any Aikido school that use more hand striking than most school would not be a pure system.
> 
> It not really bad. But if person does not like change I can see he or she would not like that.


I study aikido and the aikido I train is pure aikido. I started aikido to better understand the grappling techniques inherent in karate but not well understood. The karate I train is pure karate, enhanced by the knowledge I acquired from Aikido. When I put the two together and add a bit of Muay Thai, BJJ and combatives, I have Krav Maga.


----------



## drop bear

Jenna said:


> yes if you cross train then you are doing neither Art X nor Art Y and but instead your own new combination Art XY or YX depending on which constitutes the greater proportion.. and so if this new combination is NOT drop bear fu then what is it you are practicing? Jx



So where does that fall under the concept of conceit/mastery?


----------



## Jenna

drop bear said:


> So where does that fall under the concept of conceit/mastery?


you tell me


----------



## Jenna

K-man said:


> I study aikido and the aikido I train is pure aikido. I started aikido to better understand the grappling techniques inherent in karate but not well understood. The karate I train is pure karate, enhanced by the knowledge I acquired from Aikido. When I put the two together and add a bit of Muay Thai, BJJ and combatives, I have Krav Maga.


having practiced all of those different arts which techniques instinctively (hardcoded muscle memory type instincts etc) come out in a situation where you were forced to defend your self or some one in your care? Jx


----------



## K-man

Jenna said:


> having practiced all of those different arts which techniques instinctively (hardcoded muscle memory type instincts etc) come out in a situation where you were forced to defend your self or some one in your care? Jx


In honesty it is the combination of your training, not something that you could identify as coming from one particular source.

I teach a truism that you learn a technique, you train the technique, then you forget the technique. When you need it. It is just there. In reality those techniques are probably within all the traditional martial arts (with the exception of some of Chris Parker's more esoteric arts  ). Using punches, kicks, knees, elbows, locks, holds, throws, takedowns, etc are in Aikido, karate and Krav. They are just trained in different ways with a different emphasis.


----------



## Jenna

K-man said:


> In honesty it is the combination of your training, not something that you could identify as coming from one particular source.
> 
> I teach a truism that you learn a technique, you train the technique, then you forget the technique. When you need it. It is just there. In reality those techniques are probably within all the traditional martial arts (with the exception of some of Chris Parker's more esoteric arts  ). Using punches, kicks, knees, elbows, locks, holds, throws, takedowns, etc are in Aikido, karate and Krav. They are just trained in different ways with a different emphasis.


and you find there is never any confusion of technique in what comes instinctively to you in a situation having such a mixture of differing technical responses? Jx


----------



## K-man

Jenna said:


> and you find there is never any confusion of technique in what comes instinctively to you in a situation having such a mixture of differing technical responses? Jx


Not at all. In any situation you might be grappling or you might be protecting against an attack and you automatically register that you can do 'XYZ'. It doesn't matter where it came from but the context of your situation might see you perform more like a practitioner of one or other of the styles. For example if I was totally relaxed and in control of the situation I might be more like an Aikidoka. A bit more stress or physical duress may see the emergence of the Karateka and display a few more powerful strikes. In a totally stressed out multiple attack situation and I think you would see more evidence of the Krav training kick in.

Within the training environment I have no problem differentiating.


----------



## Jenna

K-man said:


> Not at all. In any situation you might be grappling or you might be protecting against an attack and you automatically register that you can do 'XYZ'. It doesn't matter where it came from but the context of your situation might see you perform more like a practitioner of one or other of the styles. For example if I was totally relaxed and in control of the situation I might be more like an Aikidoka. A bit more stress or physical duress may see the emergence of the Karateka and display a few more powerful strikes. In a totally stressed out multiple attack situation and I think you would see more evidence of the Krav training kick in.
> 
> Within the training environment I have no problem differentiating.


Thank you for your reply.. and within all of this there is no thought process to differentiate AikidoXYZ from KarateXYZ??  you are saying it is not weighing up most efficient technique and but rather it is instinct in the midst of all your various repertoire? Jx


----------



## K-man

Jenna said:


> Thank you for your reply.. and within all of this there is no thought process to differentiate AikidoXYZ from KarateXYZ??  you are saying it is not weighing up most efficient technique and but rather it is instinct in the midst of all your various repertoire? Jx


Exactly. I think that when you first start training you try to rationalise far more than is possible. Well before I had come across Brian and his IRT, I was teaching that your response to any attack must be instinctive. It has been shown, at least anecdotally, that the more choices you have, the slower your response as your brain has to decide what is the best course of action. Much better is the reflex action that kicks in to protect you immediately.

In Krav, if I am teaching a particular technique for a specific situation and I find someone who can't seem to make it work because his reflex action is to move the opposite way to the way I am teaching, then I abandon my technique and give him an alternate technique that fits in with his instinctive  response to the attack. I know there is no point continuing with the original technique because under pressure it isn't going to happen. If what I was teaching was important, he can always learn that technique later. Training based on instinctive response is something I picked up from Systema years ago.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hi Jenna,

If you have good training in systems where the delivery methods are not counter productive to each other then people will have very good success in their training.  They will also have instinctive movement with their response in a violent encounter.  Take for instance your movement in Aikido which would allow you to flow smoothly in Dekiti Tirsia Siradas because of the footwork involved.  When we last had Nene Tortal in Michigan several Aikido instructors came and participated and had a great time as the footwork worked well with their current ingrained movement.  In IRT I start people from day one with weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping and joint manipulation and grappling.  The framework is set up so that everything works together.  So if they train for awhile it will become instinctive and they will not have to think in a moment of violence but just react.


----------



## Jenna

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hi Jenna,
> 
> If you have good training in systems where the delivery methods are not counter productive to each other then people will have very good success in their training.  They will also have instinctive movement with their response in a violent encounter.  Take for instance your movement in Aikido which would allow you to flow smoothly in Dekiti Tirsia Siradas because of the footwork involved.  When we last had Nene Tortal in Michigan several Aikido instructors came and participated and had a great time as the footwork worked well with their current ingrained movement.  In IRT I start people from day one with weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping and joint manipulation and grappling.  The framework is set up so that everything works together.  So if they train for awhile it will become instinctive and they will not have to think in a moment of violence but just react.


my worry Brian is that too much choice would hamper that instinct? A threat.. an aggressive shove.. a grab for my shoulder.. these are typical for here.. I will have one specific lead-in technique and one specific way to deploy that technique that is ingrained from training it over and over as many different ways.. so it is zero thought it just pop out before I mentally catch up with what I have done.. there is no confusion because I do not have choices to worry over.. 

You are saying IRT is INTEGRATED yes!! this is how I mean it.. INTEGRATED.. in a threat situation you have much to evaluate.. he has a blade? he have his hand in his pocket? he has pals to stick their boot in also? he is built? he look like he can fight? This is lot to worry over.. It is TOO much beyond this to sift through a loooong lists of techniques (enough within one art - or SYSYEM how much harder being jack-of-all-trades five, six, seven arts or system?)

INTEGRATION equates to not only assimilation and but also discarding, no?? You would agree with this?? on that basis yes.. a system is integrative then I have no question.. A CUMULATIVE approach (more = better) I worry is a confusion of choices at the one time that choice is potentially catastrophic.. whereas ONE art / system then someone has already take time to do sifting assimilating and discarding even if many arts were originally involved - all arts are composite of some thing Aikido no exception.. I hope this makes sense  Jxx


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## Xue Sheng

Based on one situation in a Wing Chun class

I discovered that virtually all of my defense was taijiquan based and all of my attacks were Xingyiquan based. I had not thought about it before that class (which ironically was not Taiji or Xingyi) but that is what came natural and without thought. So, it could also be that your body and mind will adapt to what it finds easy and or comfortable for the situation at hand with no actual conscious thought necessary.

This also means that I am pretty much a failure at Wing Chun, although I think it is really cool and I train with some really good Wing Chun guys when I have the chance...but I am still doing taijiquan and Xingyiquan and not doing Wing Chun


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Jenna,

*Absolutely too much with no framework and you may have a major mess*.  Of course the flip side is too little and you may have a system that does not meet your needs in the real world.  You need *fundamentals* and skill sets that work off *elements and principles* and correlate whether you are dealing with a weapon or using one yourself or if you are flat on your back on the ground.  When it comes to dealing with violence in the real world it is best to learn a system that teaches you how to deal with weapons/tools, kicking, hand strikes, trapping and joint manipulation and grappling.  You also need of course a mental approach that coordinates with this and understands personal protection and what you can and cannot do based upon your local laws.

To train and get your skill set to work for you without thought you need:

1.  To *train*, correctly and regularly (very, very important)
2.  *Understand* and know what and why you are doing it
3.  You need to *have* *faith* in your skill set
4.  You need to *let go* and just do what needs to be done

*Where most people fail is in numbers 3 and 4*.  Way to many people do not have faith in their skill sets.  Also some people
just do not easily let go and do what they need to do.  I have met many good martial practitioner's that do not have faith in their training and or the ability to let go and do what needs to be done without thought. (quite often they do not even understand this flaw) I have also met many exceptional martial practitioner's either with one core system or several that had no problems applying their skill set in motion. They do not even have to understand 1 through 4 because they already have it ingrained.


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## drop bear

Jenna said:


> my worry Brian is that too much choice would hamper that instinct? A threat.. an aggressive shove.. a grab for my shoulder.. these are typical for here.. I will have one specific lead-in technique and one specific way to deploy that technique that is ingrained from training it over and over as many different ways.. so it is zero thought it just pop out before I mentally catch up with what I have done.. there is no confusion because I do not have choices to worry over..
> 
> You are saying IRT is INTEGRATED yes!! this is how I mean it.. INTEGRATED.. in a threat situation you have much to evaluate.. he has a blade? he have his hand in his pocket? he has pals to stick their boot in also? he is built? he look like he can fight? This is lot to worry over.. It is TOO much beyond this to sift through a loooong lists of techniques (enough within one art - or SYSYEM how much harder being jack-of-all-trades five, six, seven arts or system?)
> 
> INTEGRATION equates to not only assimilation and but also discarding, no?? You would agree with this?? on that basis yes.. a system is integrative then I have no question.. A CUMULATIVE approach (more = better) I worry is a confusion of choices at the one time that choice is potentially catastrophic.. whereas ONE art / system then someone has already take time to do sifting assimilating and discarding even if many arts were originally involved - all arts are composite of some thing Aikido no exception.. I hope this makes sense  Jxx



They are moving around and doing stuff. You are moving around and doing stuff. That changes the technical nature of your technique anyway.

Say for example You punch me in the face. And I punch you back.
 I may not be in a position to throw a technically correct punch at you. So I throw a different punch.

Otherwise you actually do both at once. There is a basic system of automatic attack and defence with a conscious system layered over the top.


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## Jenna

Brian this is a very interesting answer.. I appreciate what you say because you know what is what and talk from experience.. I only want to ask why is it you say this.. 





Brian R. VanCise said:


> Way to many people do not have faith in their skill sets.


 how do you mean this? it has caught my attention.. thank you, Jx


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Jenna,

*The reality is* that many people that train in the martial sciences and understand what they are doing *do not have faith* in their skill sets.  Which is no different than athletes who also have to perform under pressure.  What differentiates any athletic superstar from say an equally talented athlete in the NBA, NFL, Soccer, etc.  Quite often it will go past their work ethic ie. training and knowledge and into the faith the person has in themselves and also their *ability to let go* and just be in the moment.  One only needs to look at any group of martial practitioners talking or yes even on a message board and you will see that some people do not have faith in what they are doing and their own unique skill sets.  Faith is essential in any life endeavor once skills, knowledge have been developed.

*Misplaced faith is also even probably worse than lacking in faith*.  Unfortunately there are also many people who have misplaced faith in their abilities and skill sets.  Or they are just to ignorant to understand that what they think is real is illusionary at best.  It is a hard reality to face upon realizing you either do not have faith in your skill set or have misplaced faith.  *Not some thing you wish to experience for the first time in a moment of violence!*


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## Jenna

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Jenna,
> 
> *The reality is* that many people that train in the martial sciences and understand what they are doing *do not have faith* in their skill sets.  Which is no different than athletes who also have to perform under pressure.  What differentiates any athletic superstar from say an equally talented athlete in the NBA, NFL, Soccer, etc.  Quite often it will go past their work ethic ie. training and knowledge and into the faith the person has in themselves and also their *ability to let go* and just be in the moment.  One only needs to look at any group of martial practitioners talking or yes even on a message board and you will see that some people do not have faith in what they are doing and their own unique skill sets.  Faith is essential in any life endeavor once skills, knowledge have been developed.
> 
> *Misplaced faith is also even probably worse than lacking in faith*.  Unfortunately there are also many people who have misplaced faith in their abilities and skill sets.  Or they are just to ignorant to understand that what they think is real is illusionary at best.  It is a hard reality to face upon realizing you either do not have faith in your skill set or have misplaced faith.  *Not some thing you wish to experience for the first time in a moment of violence!*


Faith is not a word I had heard used in this context previously Brian though it is clear you have experience of this as a reality and not just a hypothesis.. thank you for your courtesy and patience Brian in answering.. it makes a great deal of sense Jxx


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## Brian R. VanCise

Glad I could help in any way Jenna.  Always enjoy any conversations you are a part of!


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## moonhill99

K-man said:


> I study aikido and the aikido I train is pure aikido. I started aikido to better understand the grappling techniques inherent in karate but not well understood. The karate I train is pure karate, enhanced by the knowledge I acquired from Aikido. When I put the two together and add a bit of Muay Thai, BJJ and combatives, I have Krav Maga.



I don't see any thing wrong taking Japanese jiu jitsu or Aikido being your main art of choice and supplementing it with wing chun or karate as long it does not take away the extra element.

It is like doing wood work in your house using a power saw and nothing wrong using a hand saw too!!! But if you put in hammer where you really want a saw it would not be really want you want.


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## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> I don't see any thing wrong taking Japanese jiu jitsu or Aikido being your main art of choice and supplementing it with wing chun or karate as long it does not take away the extra element.
> 
> It is like doing wood work in your house using a power saw and nothing wrong using a hand saw too!!! But if you put in hammer where you really want a saw it would not be really want you want.


 
Nothing at all. I cross train my Aikido with Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido. I would echo others however here, and state that you should really have at least 1-2 years with a strong foundation in your "base" art before you cross-train. Trying to learn the absolute basics of separate arts has to much potential to just confuse you.

Mike


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