# An "extreme" newbie.



## Dellian (Dec 14, 2006)

Hello one and all, I found this site and have to say I am impressed.
I have some questions regarding Ninjutsu.
This art has been a dream of mine for so long and I have just realised that the average person can begin to learn it.

I am quite naturally thin, skinny and light how will this affect me? (very little muscles)  :uhyeah: 

Do the average dojo's (is it called a dojo for ninjutsu?) help train your mind as well as your body?

This may sound ignorant but how long until one will be able to train under weapons? Bokkens...

Any advice for the _newbie_ before beginning with this art?

How much has learning Ninjutsu changed you?

Also does it matter how it is written? Ninjutsu, Ninjitsu?   

Ok this is all I have. 
Thank you all so much in advance.


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2006)

Well I really cannot help with your question but thought I would say hello and welcome to MT


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## mrhnau (Dec 14, 2006)

Dellian said:


> Do the average dojo's (is it called a dojo for ninjutsu?) help train your mind as well as your body?


Depends on the group. Mine did not, and I was glad for that personally.



> This may sound ignorant but how long until one will be able to train under weapons? Bokkens...


Again, depends on the group. I was working with weapons after about a month.


> Also does it matter how it is written? Ninjutsu, Ninjitsu?


Ninjitsu tends to be the americanized version, kind of a free adaptation. Ninjutsu tends to be have its origins in X-kans.
[/quote]

Nice having you on board


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## exile (Dec 14, 2006)

Hi Dellian, welcome to MT! There are a _lot_ of people on this board who do ninjutsu---you should have no trouble at all getting a ton of information on the art. I can't tell you anything about it, but if you're going to do MAs, it's never harmful to do some strength training along with it. You might think about setting up a program for yourself... 

Anyway, it's good to have you with us.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2006)

Well the best bet is to find an authentic Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Dojo in your area and try a class to see if it is for you.  After that your instructor (if you decide to train) will be able to answer most of your questions.

I will take a shot at a few of your questions before then.

Training with tools generally begins right from the get go. (in my experience)

Your bodyweight and frame as you become accustomed to using it will not hinder your training.  You may be surprised on how you develop your physique after you begin training. (especially your leg muscles from all of the rolling and standing up)

Your mind will be trained right along with your body.  This is something you find in almost all *quality* martial arts schools. (once again this is based on my experience)

*Ninjutsu* is written without the i towards the end. This means that Ninjitsu is incorrect and actually is used by many people who do not have legitimate training.  You would be advised to choose one of the X-Kan's (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan) as they all train under the lineage of Takamatsu.  I personally train in Budo Taijutsu of the Bujinkan (and could not be happier) which is under the direct lineage holder of the Takamatsu traditions Soke Masaaki Hatsumi.  The Genbukan and the Jinekan have branched off from the Bujinkan and each have their own respective leaders. (Soke Tanemura and Soke Manaka both of whom are accomplished martial artists)

I hope that I have been some help and that you can find some authentic training in your area.


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## Dellian (Dec 14, 2006)

Wow, thanks for the already answered questions!

I have one more... Just the one.

When looking for some Dojo's what are some questions I should inquire upon about Ninjutsu to find out which has the most (in search for a better word) _potential?_

Once again thank you.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2006)

Dellian said:


> Wow, thanks for the already answered questions!
> 
> I have one more... Just the one.
> 
> ...


 
Well with Budo Taijutsu Dojo's I would ask if their Instructor makes regular trips to Japan and that his/her Shidoshikai card is current.

If those are good and the Dojo atmosphere is right for you then it will probably be a great place to train.


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## Dellian (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm sorry but I do not understand the whole "Budo Taijutsu" nor "Shidoshikai card"
My apologies.


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 14, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> Well I really cannot help with your question but thought I would say hello and welcome to MT



What he said. 

I don't know anything about ninjutsu training but fortunately we have some members here who know much about it. Just wanted to say welcome.


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## Drac (Dec 14, 2006)

Alas I am unable to offer anything but Greetings and Welcome...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2006)

Dellian said:


> I'm sorry but I do not understand the whole "Budo Taijutsu" nor "Shidoshikai card"
> My apologies.


 
The Shidoshikai card proves that a teacher is current or has paid their yearly dues within the Bujinkan.  

Bujinkan is the organization that Soke Hatsumi developed to spread Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu and samurai based arts)

There are nine ryu-ha (schools) within Budo Taijutsu.  They are the following: 

*Togakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken *was founded in the late 1100's by Daisuke Nishina. The second oldest Ryu in Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu system. This school is most famous in Bujinkan for the different Ninjutsu weapons as the Shuko, Shinodake, Shuriken, etc. 

*Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu Happo Biken *was founded in the mid 1100's by Tozawa Hakuunsai. The oldest Ryu in Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu system. Most famous for the Kihon Happo, Sanshin no kata, and Muto Taihenjutsu which are considered as the basics in the Bujinkan system. 

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Kukishin-ryu Taijutsu Happo Biken* was founded in the mid 1300's by Izumo Kanja Yoshitero. Most famous in Bujinkan for the many different weapon techniques. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Shindenfudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu Happo Biken *was founded in the beginning of 1100 by Izumo Kaja Yoshitero. Most famous in Bujinkan for the rough Dakentaijutsu techniques. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Gyokushin-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken* was founded in the mid 1500's by Sasaki Goemon Teruyoshi. Very little of this school have been taught to the western world. It is believed that this school was more into information gathering and planning than actual combat. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Koto-ryu Koppojutsu Happo Biken* was founded in the mid 1500's by Sakagami Taro Kunishige. Most famous in Bujinkan for the Koppojutsu (bone breaking techniques), and unusual Biken (sword) style of fighting. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Gikan-ryu Koppo Taijutsu Happo Biken* was founded in the mid 1500's by Uryu Hangan Gikanbo.  This school is also specialized in Koppojutsu. [/FONT]

*Kumogakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken* was founded in the mid 1500's by Iga Heinaizaemon No Jo Ienaga. Most famous in Bujinkan for the Kamayari, and jumping techniques.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Takagiyoshin-ryu Jutaijutsu Happo Biken* was founded in the beginning of 1600 by Takagi Oriuemon Shigenobu. Most famous in Bujinkan as a "Bodyguard School/Samurai"  with fast and effective Jujitsu techniques, and Daishosabaki (Jujitsu while wearing both swords in the belt).[/FONT]

I hope that helps and gives you an overview of Budo Taijutsu!  Good luck.


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## Dellian (Dec 14, 2006)

Ah! Thank you!

And thank you all for the very, _very_ warm welcome!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2006)

Your welcome and we are glad to have you aboard on MartialTalk!


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## Don Roley (Dec 14, 2006)

Dellian said:


> When looking for some Dojo's what are some questions I should inquire upon about Ninjutsu to find out which has the most (in search for a better word) _potential?_



Ask the teacher about his training. Does he go to it now, or has he largely stopped going to train because he feels he does not have to.

I have to disagree with Brian about going to Japan. As long as the guy goes to a teacher, and that teacher goes to someone to train all the way back to the top of the art (living in Japan) then I think it is a good sign. Someone who does not think they need any more instruction from someone more experienced in the art just is not training with IMO.

You can find out easily from most people just how often they go to train with someone. If they start being cagey and vauge, that is a warning sign. Try to find out if they actually train with someone in good faith, or if they merely show up to the bare minimum to be able to use the name.

Always look for honesty in the teacher and a willingness to learn more. Those are the most important things to have IMO.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Ask the teacher about his training. Does he go to it now, or has he largely stopped going to train because he feels he does not have to.
> 
> I have to disagree with Brian about going to Japan. As long as the guy goes to a teacher, and that teacher goes to someone to train all the way back to the top of the art (living in Japan) then I think it is a good sign. Someone who does not think they need any more instruction from someone more experienced in the art just is not training with IMO.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Don *no question* that is a better way to word it.  Training in Japan regularly or training with a senior instructor who goes to Japan regularly to train with Hatsumi Sensei.  Every instructor should be trying to stay current with what is taught in Japan as best they can.  I do know how it feels to miss a trip and rely on training with other people who have just been to Japan.  That can be absolutely *fantastic* training and can stimulate your learning experience.:asian:


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## Cryozombie (Dec 14, 2006)

Dellian said:


> This art has been a dream of mine for so long and I have just realised that the average person can begin to learn it.



Can I play devils advocate for a moment?  I don't mean to come across as a Nixon, most of the guys here will tell you I try and be helpful, but somthing comes to mind...

If you know NOTHING about the art... why did you choose it?  Was it at random?  or because of the "made up" ninja image?  Why was this your choice?


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 14, 2006)

**** Off Topic - My Apologies ****


Brian R. VanCise said:


> The Shidoshikai card proves that a teacher is current or has paid their yearly dues within the Bujinkan.
> 
> Bujinkan is the organization that Soke Hatsumi developed to spread Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu and samurai based arts)
> 
> ...



**** My post is Off Topic - My Apologies ****

Brian thanks for this information. 

I do have a question on what you posted, because I am confused. 

*Togakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken *was founded in the late 1100's by Daisuke Nishina. The second oldest Ryu  . . . 

*Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu Happo Biken *was founded in the mid 1100's by Tozawa Hakuunsai. The oldest Ryu in . . .

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Shindenfudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu Happo Biken *was founded in the beginning of 1100 by Izumo Kaja Yoshitero. Most famous in Bujinkan for the rough Dakentaijutsu techniques. 

The first is listed as being late 1100's and the second oldest Ryu.
The second is listed as being mid 1100's and the oldest ryu. 
The third in my list, as you wrote is meginning 1100's. It has Ryu in the name. 

So my confusion is the above? Is it because of a typo? Or is it becuase the third one listed did not become a ryu until after the others, but did start before the others?

Thanks
[/FONT]


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## Dellian (Dec 15, 2006)

Cyrozimbie said:
			
		

> Can I play devils advocate for a moment? I don't mean to come across as a Nixon, most of the guys here will tell you I try and be helpful, but somthing comes to mind...
> 
> If you know NOTHING about the art... why did you choose it? Was it at random? or because of the "made up" ninja image? Why was this your choice?


 
You may certaintly play this _devils advocate_ of yours.
But I will merely reply and say under no part of my first post I said I knew _NOTHING_ about Ninjutsu...
I have read about it for _so_ long and what I meant about "the average person can begin to learn it" is that I can simply go out and join a dojo, I never thought it was that simple.

Now about this...


> Or because of the "made up" ninja image?


I have to admit I'm a little annoyed at that comment, I just wanted to post some questions and yet you are drawing me out?
I am quite aware of the difference between myth and reality. So please do not treat me like a child.

And it was a choice made on many reasons and over a very lengthy time. Of which there are too many to list.


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## mrhnau (Dec 15, 2006)

Cryozombie said:


> Can I play devils advocate for a moment?  I don't mean to come across as a Nixon, most of the guys here will tell you I try and be helpful, but somthing comes to mind...
> 
> If you know NOTHING about the art... why did you choose it?  Was it at random?  or because of the "made up" ninja image?  Why was this your choice?



Just relax man  I think most people can seperate fantasy and reality. Regardless, getting into a good dojo/shibu is going to be a great introduction, and that is what it looks like his looking into  So just take it easy...

Alot of kids have odd perceptions of MA. We grow up watching those cool kung-fu movies, but somehow, amazingly, 99% of us grew out of it and can seperate fact from fiction


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 15, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> **** Off Topic - My Apologies ****
> 
> 
> **** My post is Off Topic - My Apologies ****
> ...


 
Hey Rich,

Take the above as an overview that is close.  The best work I have found on the subject is the book written by Paul Richardson, titled : An Introductory History to the Schools of the Bujinkan.  This book can be found here : http://www.ninjutsu.com/store/search.php?mode=search 
I would recommend anyone who is interested in the history of the Bujinkan to buy it.

Even though I know a little of the history of the Bujinkan it is hard to pin everything down.  Don Roley and many other's can give better answers regarding the history of the schools of the Bujinkan than I could.  In this case I just tried to post an overview that I had sitting on my computer.

According to Paul Richardson's work above the dates are something like this with the understanding that their were teachers in each of these ryu-ha before these dates.

Togakure Ryu  1110
Shindenfudo Ryu 1113
Gyokko Ryu 1156 - 1159 

As to being confused, join the crowd. :erg:  I get confused quite often myself..

Here is another short listing of the history of the Bujinkan :
http://www.ninjutsu.at/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=14&Itemid=15

And yet another
http://www.bujinkanlillisdojo.com/

Gyokko ryu is considered to be the oldest of the ryu-ha within the Bujinkan.

Once again the history of the Bujinkan is not my forte so to speak. (though I try a little)


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## exile (Dec 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In this case I just tried to post an overview that I had sitting on my computer...
> 
> Here is another short listing of the history of the Bujinkan :
> http://www.ninjutsu.at/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=14&Itemid=15
> ...



Hi Brian---it occurred to me that all of the material you posted in that `overview' note, plus these references, would make a _great_ sticky in the Ninjutsu forum. A lot of times, I've noticed, people have to reinvent one or another wheel on various fora because the same (often very good) questions keep popping up, and it would be nice to have some fixed, permanent, compact reference material that inquiring minds could consult _before_ asking those questions yet again... it just would save wear and tear on people's keyboard (as well as their patience and their sanity) to have that stuff `out there' at the start. I think this material of yours definitely merits that treatment...


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## J-Cop (Dec 15, 2006)

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and to Ninpo and would like to extend warm regards. I am a Bujinkan student and had some questions about Genbukan. The biggest question is what are the differences? I've done a little research and from what I've found, it seems that the Bujinkan under Hatsumi Sensei could be compared to Harvard, and the Genbukan under Tanemura Sensei could be compared to Yale. Or, as we would say here in Texas, Hatsumi sensei is a Longhorn, and Tanemura sensei is an Aggie! 
It seems that both are excellent schools with excellent teachers that simply have a different approach to Ninpo. There seems to be a little anymosity between the students of the two schools, just like Longhorns and Aggies (LOL). But it seems that the only real difference between the two schools is that the Genbukan is more traditional where Bujinkan is more "Liberal" when teaching Ninpo. So, my next question is, am I wrong or are there aspects to Ninpo learned through the Bujinkan that, for what ever reason, cannot be learned by going to Genbukan and vice versa?:asian:


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2006)

Dellian said:


> But I will merely reply and say under no part of my first post I said I knew _NOTHING_ about Ninjutsu...



I apologise, I made the assumptions in my post based on the type of questions you asked, the fact that you knew the term "NinjUtsu" and "NinjItsu" but not Bujinkan, or Budo Taijutsu, etc...  I'm sure you can understand that certain things, such as your own admission that you believed until recently this art was somthing that you couldnt just join a dojo and learn, does tend to make something of an argument for the romanticized notions of the Hollywood ninja myth...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 15, 2006)

J-Cop said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm new to the forum and to Ninpo and would like to extend warm regards. I am a Bujinkan student and had some questions about Genbukan. The biggest question is what are the differences? I've done a little research and from what I've found, it seems that the Bujinkan under Hatsumi Sensei could be compared to Harvard, and the Genbukan under Tanemura Sensei could be compared to Yale. Or, as we would say here in Texas, Hatsumi sensei is a Longhorn, and Tanemura sensei is an Aggie!
> It seems that both are excellent schools with excellent teachers that simply have a different approach to Ninpo. There seems to be a little anymosity between the students of the two schools, just like Longhorns and Aggies (LOL). But it seems that the only real difference between the two schools is that the Genbukan is more traditional where Bujinkan is more "Liberal" when teaching Ninpo. So, my next question is, am I wrong or are there aspects to Ninpo learned through the Bujinkan that, for what ever reason, cannot be learned by going to Genbukan and vice versa?:asian:


 

Well the feeling of Hatsumi Sensei's budo can only be learned while training with him or with Bujinkan Shihan or Shidoshi that train with him or with instructors that regularly train with people trained by him.  Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is traditional and yet there is lots of exploring and learning of various henka within the ryu-ha all while training to achieve nagare. (flow)   This is an incredibly broad and beautiful combative martial art.  
(I am blessed to be studying it)

Since Hatsumi Sensei taught Tanemura Sensei there is bound to be many similarities and yet I imagine that Tanemura Sensei has put his own mark on what he teaches. (he has also learned from some other teachers)  

I truthfully hope that both of them have success, prosperity and health.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Rich,
> 
> Take the above as an overview that is close. The best work I have found on the subject is the book written by Paul Richardson, titled : An Introductory History to the Schools of the Bujinkan. This book can be found here : http://www.ninjutsu.com/store/search.php?mode=search
> I would recommend anyone who is interested in the history of the Bujinkan to buy it.
> ...




Thanks Brian


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 16, 2006)

Glad to have helped a little Rich.


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## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Don *no question* that is a better way to word it.  Training in Japan regularly or training with a senior instructor who goes to Japan regularly to train with Hatsumi Sensei.  Every instructor should be trying to stay current with what is taught in Japan as best they can.  I do know how it feels to miss a trip and rely on training with other people who have just been to Japan.  That can be absolutely *fantastic* training and can stimulate your learning experience.:asian:


I just want to throw an aside in here...

I don't care what system you're talking about -- if the instructor isn't continueing to train and improve his/her knowledge, I consider that a red flag.  I'm priviliged to train under one of the earliest students of the man who introduced my system to the US; he still goes to his teacher.  I still go to mine.  And the chief instructor still researches material he received from his teachers...  then presents that material to us.  I gather that Hatsume does this as well.  Everyone's training and learning is on-going.  That's the sign, in my opinion, of a vibrant and living art.


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