# Lengths for Tests and how long between ranks...



## Gufbal1982 (Feb 20, 2007)

Now, I have never administerred a bb test, but have done brown belt and lower tests (both with USSD and FVSSD). How long of a test do you think is appropriate and how long do you think that person should hold the rank for before testing again?  I'll put my feedback in after I get some responses.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2007)

Gufbal1982 said:


> Now, I have never administerred a bb test, but have done brown belt and lower tests. How long of a test do you think is appropriate


 
From what I've seen, the 1st Degree test is usually the most physically demanding one.  I'd say 4 hrs is resonable, although I have heard of them lasting longer.  Then again, if we figure in all of the warmups, situps, pushups, basics in the air as well as bag work, SD in the air and with a partner, kata, sparring and a few other things, 4 hrs isn't unrealistic.




> and how long do you think that person should hold the rank for before testing again? I'll put my feedback in after I get some responses.


 
2-3yrs.  

Mike


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## Bode (Feb 20, 2007)

Black belt tests... 
I think it really depends on the curriculum and the type of school. I've seen three types of tests. 
1) Make em sweat test. This is the test where the student goes through physical hell. Kicks, punches, techniques, along with the requisite forms, over and over. Just when you think your done they announce another round of kicks and punches. Maybe some sparring to top it off. 

2) Mental Challenge. This test is more laid back. Can you articulate what you know? Describe a technique and the principles it uses. Demonstrate that same technique. During this test they really clamp down on the mental pressure. You have to speak in front of a panel, alone, without the support of a crowd around you. It feels like all of the beatings you took mean nothing. 

3) Stress Test - This test is all about testing how much physical and mental stress the student can take. You might even think your in the Marines with phrases like, "My grandma is faster than that." If you lower your hands for a second you'll get popped. And when you do they'll yell at you for not doing something. At some point during this test someone will pass out or nearly fall over from the mental and physical exhaustion. Differs from test #1 because the stress testing adds a whole new dimension. 

I think most of the tests I've participated in have been of type 2 and 3. Doc isn't a big fan of repetition. However he is a fan of stress testing. He wants to see how you perform under extreme stress. One of our black belts is a Sheriff. Not just any Sheriff either. I think he taught defensive tactics. Having him yell at you is quite intimidating (along with Doc). 

The tests usually last about 2.5 hours. At this point someone has feinted from all of the nerve activations, stress, and physical exhaustion. No one, and I mean no one, is exempt from the possibility of passing out. It happened to me once and my V02 max is on par with near professional athletes. 
In conclusion, it just depends on what happens during the tests that sets the limit on time. 4 hours is reasonable if your not doing a stress test. Factor that it and the time drops. 

Oh, and time to the next belt? Well, in our school we count the number of hours of class time, not the years. I could be on the mat twice as much in one year as someone who can't make it as often. Does that mean they move up at the same pace?


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## dragonswordkata (Feb 20, 2007)

Bode said:


> Black belt tests...
> 
> 2) Mental Challenge. This test is more laid back. Can you articulate what you know? Describe a technique and the principles it uses. Demonstrate that same technique. During this test they really clamp down on the mental pressure. You have to speak in front of a panel, alone, without the support of a crowd around you. It feels like all of the beatings you took mean nothing.
> 
> ...


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## dragonswordkata (Feb 20, 2007)

oops, sorry for that last booboo posting.

I wanted to agree with the stress and physical testing rolled into one. My first dan was 6 hrs long, I don't remember much, maybe I just repressed the pain lol. I do remember that the spirit of the test was well rounded in the mental and physical and I felt I had EARNED that belt. It was a milestone to me and I was glad it wasn't handed to me. 

One of my instructors was going for her 2nd dan and she had a 2 day semi private test. It was about 6-8 hrs long.


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## Mark L (Feb 21, 2007)

Shodan test is around 9 hrs, give or take.  The first 2 hours are the requisite "sweat 'em" portion, designed to see if you really want to be there.  Beyond shodan is exempt from this.  The remainder of the test "stress 'em" is a fairly grueling review of the curriculum, we usually only get through ~90-95% of the material  before  breakdown occurs.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 28, 2007)

MJS said:


> From what I've seen, the 1st Degree test is usually the most physically demanding one. I'd say 4 hrs is resonable, although I have heard of them lasting longer. Then again, if we figure in all of the warmups, situps, pushups, basics in the air as well as bag work, SD in the air and with a partner, kata, sparring and a few other things, 4 hrs isn't unrealistic.
> 
> Mike


 
I would agree with Mike on this. My 1st was the most grueling--6 hours (actually stress fractured one foot). Personally, I've always felt it was excessive; 2.5-3.5 is plenty. :wink2: 

Time between ranks and criteria for 2nd and after seems to vary widely with systems/schools.


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## loyalonehk (Feb 28, 2007)

I preach to all my students that *every class is a test*...  I'm not much for holding a set test day, etc.  *Every 6 months or so*, I will show up to class and actually put on my "*Tuxedo"* or Gi as most call it _(We train in camies or street clothes and dont wear belts, unless attending an event that would render it appropriate to do so)_.  That usualy raises a few eyebrows among those that have been with me long enough to know what that means.  If I have my tuxedo on, *they know* its going to be one of those days that *they need to be locked on*.  Also, when I am "dressed to impress" they find out that I mean business.  You can either go UP, DOWN or Stay the same rank by the end of the session.  Just because you have a Brown belt at the begining of class, does not mean that you will leave with one...  *It goes both ways:uhyeah: *.  Its up to the individual to be ready at any given time.


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## Tames D (Feb 28, 2007)

Bode said:


> Black belt tests...
> I think it really depends on the curriculum and the type of school. I've seen three types of tests.
> *1) Make em sweat test. This is the test where the student goes through physical hell. Kicks, punches, techniques, along with the requisite forms, over and over. Just when you think your done they announce another round of kicks and punches. Maybe some sparring to top it off.*
> 
> ...


I often wonder if anyone has actually died during a test like this. I've never seen or heard of it happening but I'm sure it has. It happens in football and basketball every so often. And if it did happen during a Martial Arts promotion test I wonder what the liablity would be for the instructor administering the test?


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## Carol (Feb 28, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> I often wonder if anyone has actually died during a test like this. I've never seen or heard of it happening but I'm sure it has. It happens in football and basketball every so often. And if it did happen during a Martial Arts promotion test I wonder what the liablity would be for the instructor administering the test?



I used to have an issue with passing out or falling over from dizziness in class from time to time (once during a test) and my instructors at the time were always sternly impressing upon me to not push myself that hard and to sit down or slow down when I'm getting dizzy or feeling very weak.   I actually still have that problem but I've gotten a bit better at taking myself out of the game when I can't keep up.

Granted my then-instructors were decent human beings, but I also know the attorney that represented the school was also a student and trained side by side with the rest of us a few times per week.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 1, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> And if it did happen during a Martial Arts promotion test I wonder what the liablity would be for the instructor administering the test?



That's why most schools make you sign a giant waiver of liability for injury up to and including death when you join.  Unless there was some sort of demonstrated malfeasance or negligence which cancels the waiver, the instructor and the school should be in the clear.


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## jdinca (Mar 1, 2007)

Our bb test involves a 1-2 hour test with each of at least 15 bb's. The tests incorporate *everything* you've learned since you started and you have no idea what you're going to be doing until the lesson starts. Usually takes several weeks to complete.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 2, 2007)

jdinca said:


> Our bb test involves a 1-2 hour test with each of at least 15 bb's. The tests incorporate *everything* you've learned since you started and you have no idea what you're going to be doing until the lesson starts. Usually takes several weeks to complete.


 
This intrigues me. As a public school teacher who usually, by the way, gets the washouts, or outcasts, or highly at-risk, or whatever label one wants to use for the class of kids that mostly aren't going to see a HS diploma (if they even live that long), I have an intense interest in testing. 

I hate the high-intensity, one-sitting, pass/fail test concept, otherwise known as High Stakes Testing, mostly because my kids haven't done well with them. What really gets tested is ones ability to do well at testing-on-demand; or perhaps, how priveleged was ones childhood--or not; or, whether the teacher taught to the test instead of really educating kids, or one of many, many things, few of which are what the test purports to test for. Now please stay with me: I don't want to take us off topic. Am only using public school testing as a parallel for MA testing.

I have taken many of the one-day, high-stakes, throw-up before the test, give it your all and still not know if you'll be deemed worthy, one-shot tests, and so probably have you. Passed most, but they did not make me a better person, nor really mean much about my ability as a martial artist (or student, or educator).

The point: jdinca's school's system is more like a portfolio assessment, in which a student is able to show _over time_ their abilities, knowledge, and grit, instead of being failed because they had an off day, or are poor test takers. I have long hoped for this kind of long-term assessment for schools, at least for the kids on the very fringe. Nice to see it used in the MA.


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## Danjo (Mar 2, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> This intrigues me. As a public school teacher who usually, by the way, gets the washouts, or outcasts, or highly at-risk, or whatever label one wants to use for the class of kids that mostly aren't going to see a HS diploma (if they even live that long), I have an intense interest in testing.
> 
> I hate the high-intensity, one-sitting, pass/fail test concept, otherwise known as High Stakes Testing, mostly because my kids haven't done well with them. What really gets tested is ones ability to do well at testing-on-demand; or perhaps, how priveleged was ones childhood--or not; or, whether the teacher taught to the test instead of really educating kids, or one of many, many things, few of which are what the test purports to test for. Now please stay with me: I don't want to take us off topic. Am only using public school testing as a parallel for MA testing.
> 
> ...


 
While I concur with your feeling about High Stakes Testing (HST) for high school students (I'm a teacher myself), I think it's a bit different in the martial arts. The martial arts instructors are usually not going to put you up for a test unles they've already done the equivalant of a "portfolio assessment" on the student in question. However, one cannot do without the "HST" aspect also. The reason is that when a real fight goes off, it's an HST situation. Period. You'd better be able to perform under pressure and "on demand". So I think that both are truly needed for proper assessment of a student in the martial arts.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 2, 2007)

Danjo said:


> While I concur with your feeling about High Stakes Testing (HST) for high school students (I'm a teacher myself), I think it's a bit different in the martial arts. The martial arts instructors are usually not going to put you up for a test unles they've already done the equivalant of a "portfolio assessment" on the student in question.


 
Good point.



> _However, one cannot do without the "HST" aspect also. The reason is that when a real fight goes off, it's an HST situation. Period. You'd better be able to perform under pressure and "on demand_".


 
The 'real fight as HST' point is absolutely valid. And now that I carefully read and reread your post, see that I wasn't totally clear. I really have two different types of examinees in mind.

For a MA who doesn't have a lot of street experience, you're right that it's the examiners' responsibility to be sure they test for stress reaction. _Not_ doing this I believe is a disservice to the aspiring BB, and could set them up for a huge fall on the street. We all know there are black belts, and then there are black belts. The less-than-street-ready ones I believe did/do need a simulated street experience to ensure they can really handle an emergency/violent situation. (Sounds a lot like boot camp )

But some of us were old hands on the street or in true crisis situations before ever beginning MA, and others spend every day under the threat of violent encounters. For this type of MA, more stress may actually be counterproductive.



> _So I think that both are truly needed for proper assessment of a student in the martial arts_.


 
Now, after rethinking my post through the grid of your response, I would say I agree that both types of assessment are necessary as _possibilities _in order to ensure proper assessment. But maybe the individual's life experience should weigh heavily in determining the type of test. MHO.


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## thetruth (Mar 5, 2007)

I stopped training at my last school for a number of reasons one being the watering down of everything.   When I tested for first dan there we started at 7pm on a friday night till about 230 am.  This involved a 5km run and just hard work.  We were back at 7am on the Saturday at the local atletics track for a few more hours of torture and testing with the last 2 or 3 hours being techniques and kata etc in a hall which people could come and see finishing at about 2pm.  I could hardly move with out pain due to the massive lactic acid build up but was back at the school monday for class and tae bo ready to go.  My 2nd dan grading was 3 hours and was basically a joke in comparison.  Itested for that a year  later and that is what difference a year made 

Anyways thats my piece
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## kosho (Mar 5, 2007)

Hi,
    yellow belt about 1 hr.
    orange belt about 1 hr 20 min.
    purple belt  about 1 hr 45 min
    blue belt about 3 hrs  and 25 written test
    green belt about 5 hrs and 50 written test and 2 page essay
    brown belt 6 - 8 hrs.
    Black belt. 16 hrs 2 days 100 ? test  and a 5 page essay.

All students are taken under age and phyisical state for the test.
so a 12 year old  and a 22 year old go threw the same test just at different levels. also all stripe test  are about 45 min with zero mistakes to pass. until black belt. each stripe after that is a 6 - 8 hr test. 
Kosho


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 5, 2007)

I've heard Lee Wedlake say something along the lines that anyone who can't tell if you deserve a Blackbelt in two hours doesn't know Kenpo.

Anything longer is just testing endurance and isn't that what regular classes are for?

Jeff


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## LawDog (Mar 5, 2007)

I stopped our two day black belt testing back in the 80's. Our B.B. testing is now a one day event. I do not set a time limit on the testing for the following reasons,
1) the number of applicants,
2) rank and teaching certificates are tested for seperatly. Testing for a teaching certificate is done after the B.B. ranking is completed.
3) age, if you have a larger number of older applicants the testing will take longer. I do not require senior citizens to floor test with younger students, 65 and above. I have a few of seniors that insisted on taking the same test as their younger counterparts. One was age 68 the other age 81.
4) a test is not complete untill you have finished all of your testing outline.

Extra off of the main topic,
I agree with Danjo,(post #14), placing students under stress is important. This stress level has to be done in a controlled & uniform manner by the all of the rank examiners. The stress levels must be uniform from test to test. The colored belts should be introduced to test stress in a progressive manner.

Our testing is has many areas, Kenpo presets, a few forms, free fighting, unannounced attacks,( 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2), Judo,(used in our system), Jujitsu,(used in our system), floor suppressions.  Instructer certifications cover, basic theory, tactical theory, recognition of the various theories within the material, how to instruct, demonstartions of proper instruction, how to properly evaluate a student in a test, how to run a test.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 5, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I stopped our two day black belt testing back in the 80's. Our B.B. testing is now a one day event. I do not set a time limit on the testing for the following reasons...


 
Sounds like you have refined your system so that it really works for you.



> _I do not require senior citizens to floor test with younger students, 65 and above. I have a few of seniors that insisted on taking the same test as their younger counterparts. One was age 68 the other age 81._
> 
> _Extra off of the main topic,_
> _I agree with Danjo,(post #14), placing students under stress is important. This stress level has to be done in a controlled & uniform manner by the all of the rank examiners. The stress levels must be uniform from test to test. The colored belts should be introduced to test stress in a progressive manner_.


 
I like the fact you make allowances for age. If I were to play devil's advocate, however, I might say that _what people have done_ in those 50, 60, or 70 years of life varies widely. And I go back to my post (#15); some have proven ability to handle martial stress (wartime vets, LE, dangerous careers, street fighting). For them, the manufactured stress of a 'test' may be redundant or even counter productive and seen as less than realistic compared to their experiences. JMHO.


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## LawDog (Mar 5, 2007)

Off topic I know, just a quick response.
Kidswarrior,
You are correct in your "devels advocate"area. Prior to the test the school owners are required to give background information on all B.B. applicants. We understand that some have been in/are in situations that go way beyond anything that is done during our test. Because of this we know that their response to the test stress will be rather low. We will not increase the stress on them.
I know, I get a time out for being off topic, corner here I come again.


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## Blindside (Mar 5, 2007)

Kenpodoc said:


> I've heard Lee Wedlake say something along the lines that anyone who can't tell if you deserve a Blackbelt in two hours doesn't know Kenpo.
> 
> Anything longer is just testing endurance and isn't that what regular classes are for?
> 
> Jeff


 
You are correct, heck, most judges should be able to tell in the first half hour.  I'd argue that much of the testing isn't for the instructors, it is for the student.  They are demonstrating to themselves, just as much as they are to us (as the graders) what they can accomplish when they are tired, or their knowledge of the systems history, or how they deal with problems in the studio, or how they fight full contact when they are exhausted.  I want it to be a challenge, I want bruises and exhaustion and frustration.  It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, it was a true stress test, and that goes beyond just knowledge of the system.  I've seen technically proficient black belts that have never bit *hit* and when you see the wind go out of their sails, and you can see in their eyes that they are just looking for an excuse to back off the sparring floor, I won't have that happen to one of my students.  I don't think you can show all that it just two hours.

Lamont


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