# Biceps or triceps use more for punching?



## still learning (Feb 28, 2005)

Hello, Just got thru reading one of Marc "the animal" books . He mention that we use our biceps for lifting food to our mouths but use the triceps for punching. That means we need to work on making our triceps stronger.
   Whats are your thoughts?    .....Aloha


----------



## dubljay (Feb 28, 2005)

Well if you look at how the muscles work you will see he is right (in basic idea).  

 When you bring your arm close to your body what muscle contracts?  Your bicep.  When you extend your arm to punch what muscle contracts? Your triceps.  So in basic theory he is right, your triceps has more relevant on a punch (going out that is) than the bicep.  

 All martial artists know that there is more to a punch than the arm muscles; it takes the entire body to throw a powerful punch.  

 Now if you want to look at the mechanics of the arm the muscles used dont stop at the triceps and biceps.  You must also include the muscles in your forearm; it is these muscles that give torque to your punch, which adds to the power.  The role of the bicep should not be over looked either.  As I have stated in many threads the often over looked aspect of speed is the speed at which your strikes return from the target.  So the ability to throw fast strikes in combination will require an equally developed bicep muscle.

 That is my long and complex answer, but as I am not an expert on human anatomy, and everything else is my opinion, I could be wrong.

 -Josh-


----------



## Crom (Feb 28, 2005)

That would make sense i guess, when punching your generally extending/straightening the arm.  Seems that triceps would do most of that work as it contracts pulling the arm straight, the bicep would actually relax as the punch is thrown.


I have no background in this kinda thing, just sitting here lookin at my arm so i might be way out.


----------



## Tgace (Feb 28, 2005)

The core muscles are far more important than the limbs.....


----------



## dubljay (Feb 28, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The core muscles are far more important than the limbs.....


   Thats a given, but I think Still Learning was speaking in terms of the arm mechanics in isolation.


----------



## Tgace (Feb 28, 2005)

True... I just get the impression that the question involves which muscles to strengthen/work out to improve punching.


----------



## DuneViking (Feb 28, 2005)

Anatomically, the triceps extend the forearm and the biceps flex the forearm. In punching, the triceps role is the same but the biceps role, along with the pectoralis group, is to adduct the upper arm towards the target. As to which is more important, without a detailed and measured knesiology study, I would propose they are each more important at varying times, the biceps and pecs in the begining and the triceps near the end, of course if you count the energy transfering snap near the end, the biceps are again involved, as well as a new group, the deltoids. There may also be other more minor groups involved, but I'll leave that to a physical therapist.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Feb 28, 2005)

when a muscle crosses a joint it acts on that joint. during the basic karate punch when the fist is chambered either on the hip or in the upper position just below the pectoral group, the prime movers of that arm would be pectoralis major (flexion of the humerus),  the anterior musculature of deltoid (flexion and medial rotation of humerus), coracobrachialis (flexion of humerus), biceps brachii (flexion of humerus[minor]),pronater teres and quadratus for the corkscrew motion at the end of the punch. the triceps would be a minor player in stabilization and extension of the forearm along with anconeus which assists in extension and pronation.
on the other hand.....a classic backfist strike where the hands are held up, and the lead hand is used for the hit.....the tricep muscle would create the speed and snap for the power.


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Feb 28, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Just got thru reading one of Marc "the animal" books . He mention that we use our biceps for lifting food to our mouths but use the triceps for punching. That means we need to work on making our triceps stronger.
> Whats are your thoughts?    .....Aloha




For straight punches biceps don't come into play at all, except to retract the punch.

Major movers are the triceps, pectorals and anterior deltoids.  Other muscles act as stabilizers.  The trunk and legs also add power, of course.


You need the biceps for other actions, so I wouldn't ignore them.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## OC Kid (Mar 1, 2005)

Actually its the legs and hip that increase your punching power. But as far as arms go.....tri's for punching, bi's for retracting


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 1, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The core muscles are far more important than the limbs.....


Amen to that.  For punching, both bi's and tri's are actually used because muscles only work one way - they contract.  It is like a light switch, on or off. So, when you are extending the strike, tri's are doing the contracting and when you are retracting the punch, bi's are doing the contracting and the tricep is not.  Now one of the factors of 'speed' is how well you can keep the 'non contracting muscles' from creating drag or friction because they are relaxed and don't interfer with the main effort.


----------



## DuneViking (Mar 1, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> when a muscle crosses a joint it acts on that joint. during the basic karate punch when the fist is chambered either on the hip or in the upper position just below the pectoral group, the prime movers of that arm would be pectoralis major (flexion of the humerus), the anterior musculature of deltoid (flexion and medial rotation of humerus), coracobrachialis (flexion of humerus), biceps brachii (flexion of humerus[minor]),pronater teres and quadratus for the corkscrew motion at the end of the punch. the triceps would be a minor player in stabilization and extension of the forearm along with anconeus which assists in extension and pronation.
> on the other hand.....a classic backfist strike where the hands are held up, and the lead hand is used for the hit.....the tricep muscle would create the speed and snap for the power.


 
Nice Job!!!!! :asian:


----------



## pesilat (Mar 2, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Just got thru reading one of Marc "the animal" books . He mention that we use our biceps for lifting food to our mouths but use the triceps for punching. That means we need to work on making our triceps stronger.
> Whats are your thoughts?    .....Aloha



I don't know specifically which book of Marc's you're talking about and I've only read one of his, I think. However, when I've heard him discuss this either in person or in online discussions, he's usually talking about relaxing, not about strength and building muscles. As you fire the punch, your bicep should be relaxed so that it's not fighting your tricep. As you retract, your bicep should tense while your tricep relaxes.

If both are tensed then you're slowing down your punch or your retraction by causing your muscles to fight each other instead of working in unison to achieve the goal.

I'm far from an expert on muscular training but I'd recommend you not focus on developing any single muscle group any more than others. It may help you in one area but will almost certainly be a detriment in another area.

But I'll tell you, developing muscle isn't the key to developing power. Proper body mechanics and relaxation is the key to power.

That's not to say that strength and mass don't play a role. They do. If two opponents are equally matched in skill and ability then strength and mass can make a difference - physics is physics. But a fighter who doesn't have good skill and ability can be bested by someone much smaller and weaker if the smaller/weaker opponent has good skill and ability.

You can only increase your strength and mass to a certain degree (which varies from person to person). But your skill and ability can continue to increase for the rest of your life. I'd recommend putting the development of skill and ability at the forefront of your priorities and put development of muscles in the background - continue to work out and get stronger but never rely on it to make your martial arts training functional.

Mike


----------



## FearlessFreep (Mar 2, 2005)

_But I'll tell you, developing muscle isn't the key to developing power. Proper body mechanics and relaxation is the key to power._

Amen.  I was reminded of that last night when practicing roudnhouse kicks for power.  The more I tried to muscle it, I slowed down.  I had a lot more speed and power when I remembered to maintain good technique ('muscling' screwed up my hip twist timing) I had a lot more powerful


----------



## still learning (Mar 2, 2005)

Hello, Thank-you for the input guys!  I enjoy reading your thoughts on this....Aloha


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 2, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> when a muscle crosses a joint it acts on that joint. during the basic karate punch when the fist is chambered either on the hip or in the upper position just below the pectoral group, the prime movers of that arm would be pectoralis major (flexion of the humerus), the anterior musculature of deltoid (flexion and medial rotation of humerus), coracobrachialis (flexion of humerus), biceps brachii (flexion of humerus[minor]),pronater teres and quadratus for the corkscrew motion at the end of the punch. the triceps would be a minor player in stabilization and extension of the forearm along with anconeus which assists in extension and pronation.
> on the other hand.....a classic backfist strike where the hands are held up, and the lead hand is used for the hit.....the tricep muscle would create the speed and snap for the power.


I love it when someone has done their homework. From a strictly kinematic standpoint, well done.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 2, 2005)

"The body seeks symmetry". (Thanks, Doc).

The biceps contraction *permits* triceps acceleration. Without appropriate antagonist activation, you'd blow the elbow out. The body, sensing this, will not allow you to exceed a particular pace without checks and balances. Train tri's, but train bi's, too.  Big mechanical mistake = trying to punch with the biceps turned off. A quick blow, leading to a short career in the arts.

D.


----------



## RRouuselot (Mar 2, 2005)

When executing a punch you dont use one single muscle but rather several groups of muscles.

   Triceps, Delts, traps, lats, forearm, abs, back muscles and to some extent the biceps


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Mar 2, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I love it when someone has done their homework. From a strictly kinematic standpoint, well done.


thanks dr dave.........i knew all those anatomy and physiology classes would pay off some day.
i was going to tell people to ask you.


----------



## DarrenJew (Mar 2, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> When executing a punch you dont use one single muscle but rather several groups of muscles.
> 
> Triceps, Delts, traps, lats, forearm, abs, back muscles and to some extent the biceps


Yes, but
Dont forget about the floor. What! yeah the floor. 

Say your in a stationary wheel chair or on a skate board. How much power can you deliver in your punch if your not grounded to the floor. Your force in your punch would send you rolling backwards. Even jumping strikes build up the kinetic energy from the leap before leaving the ground. I would say one of the few strikes that do not require the ground are jabs... but with a jab I recommend quickly following it up with something more substantial, it may be difficult to win a contest with only jabs in your arsenal. 

(if the wheel chair or skate board where moving forwards with some velocity... that's a different story.)


----------



## RRouuselot (Mar 3, 2005)

DarrenJew said:
			
		

> Yes, but
> Dont forget about the floor. What! yeah the floor.


 I wasn't aware the floor was a muscle


----------



## DarrenJew (Mar 3, 2005)

true... not a muscle but without it you will have very little power in your blows.


----------



## RRouuselot (Mar 3, 2005)

DarrenJew said:
			
		

> true... not a muscle but without it you will have very little power in your blows.


 
 Ya well thanks for stating the painfully obvious  since most people don't deliver techniques while hanging from a trapeze or while rolling down the street on a skateboard.


----------



## DarrenJew (Mar 3, 2005)

But your foundation and balance is off... it will effect the effectiveness of your strike. Try hitting someone when your off balanced. Wing Chun has a "one inch punch", almost none of the power generated with the arms, many of the muscle groups you've mention come into play... but most of the power comes from the ground most of the torque is generated from muscle groups in the back and wrist and legs.


----------



## Brother John (Mar 3, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> For straight punches biceps don't come into play at all, except to retract the punch.
> 
> Major movers are the triceps, pectorals and anterior deltoids.  Other muscles act as stabilizers.  The trunk and legs also add power, of course.
> You need the biceps for other actions, so I wouldn't ignore them.
> ...


That's exactly right Steve.
Something else to consider is that one of the things that inhibits the rate at which a muscle can contract or elongate is the strength or condition of the opposing muscle. If the tricep has been made strong and powerful but the bicep has not, then the Golgi-tendon at the neural receptor site of the bicep will not allow the arm to extend as powerfully/quickly in order to protect the weaker muscle. 
Also: For joint stability, it's crucial that our strength development be as symetrical as we can make it. Imagine a vertical support on a suspension bridge: if the cables to the East are stronger than the cables to the West... it won't be a good support. Likewise, if the muscles/tendons on one side of a joint are stronger than on another... Not good!

So really, the whole body should be developed with balance and proportion. An over-all strength training routine is best for this.

Something to think about.
Your Brother
John


----------



## clapping_tiger (Mar 3, 2005)

It is good to know basically which muscles contribute to a punch, but I find the best way to *work* those muscles is to beat the crap out of a heavy bag. Because each different punch uses slightly different muscle groups.


----------



## Brother John (Mar 3, 2005)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> It is good to know basically which muscles contribute to a punch, but I find the best way to *work* those muscles is to beat the crap out of a heavy bag. Because each different punch uses slightly different muscle groups.



Good call. It's one of the best reasons to do bag-work!


Your Brother
John


----------



## DuneViking (Mar 4, 2005)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> It is good to know basically which muscles contribute to a punch, but I find the best way to *work* those muscles is to beat the crap out of a heavy bag. Because each different punch uses slightly different muscle groups.


Agreed, the best way to develop and enhance any particular movement is to do that movement itself. Such simplicity that encompases detailed depth and complexity of all the parts involved is eloquent. Variable resistance training can also be accomplished by simple push-ups, modified in various ways such as inclination or elevation of your feet, width of the hands or knuckles on the floor, depth of each repetition etc. I also think this works synergistically with bag work. The basic concept remains constant, to improve the punch-do the punch-whether its on a bag or pushing on the floor, doing them slow under tension, or fast as you can do develop speed. Explore Simplicity.


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 5, 2005)

So is resistence the only way to develop?


----------



## Brother John (Mar 6, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So is resistence the only way to develop?


Develop what? Physical/Muscular strength?
Yes

Your Brother 
John


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 25, 2005)

yeah...just sticking that question out there....

when i had worked out at a gym,,,,people were working real hard on bicep and bench presses...forgettting tricep


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 26, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> yeah...just sticking that question out there....
> 
> when i had worked out at a gym,,,,people were working real hard on bicep and bench presses...forgettting tricep


"Mirror muscles". The guys who hit bi's & chest, leavnig out things like legs, back & shoulders, really look silly to anyone who has trained dilligently in a well-rounded program. More interested in achieving X-frame ni training, than 0-frame, with no neck, legs, whatever, but the pecs are massive and the bi's are proud.


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 26, 2005)

so its the "paper tiger" syndrone?


----------



## Simon Curran (Mar 26, 2005)

I was going to say that the biceps protect the elbow from over extension, but the real experts beat me to it...


----------

