# Are the Best 'Chunners Chinese?



## geezer (Aug 11, 2010)

I was in a conversation a while back during which a very skilled and widely traveled non-Chinese 'Chunner declared that he didn't believe that the most efficient and combat effective WC/WT/VT in the world today was practiced by the Chinese. He felt that the current generation of Chinese "masters" have not advanced the art to the degree that certain non-Chinese masters have. He even stated that members of a certain European group openly claim to hold the highest standard in the world... _and he feels they may be right!_ Needless to say this generated a lot of debate between us. Of course, _there can be no right answer._ Nevertheless it was an interesting discussion, and one that I cannot even imagine taking place 20 years ago. 

So, my question is, based on _your_ experiences, do you feel that the Chinese standard is still the highest, or is the most advanced WC/WT/VT now being trained elsewhere and by non-Chinese individuals? In short, _"Where is the best Wing Chun being taught today?"_


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## WanderRA (Aug 11, 2010)

Shaun Rawcliffe has written the best books about the subject.. he teaches in Birmingham UK, his sifu is Ip Chun so Id say he knows his stuff.

Also, even the best classes will have a poor student, you know..the fat one at the end of the line. The best teacher's teach motivation. They teach the student to think/question/explore himself.


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## Rain (Aug 11, 2010)

Well I would like to point out that the chinese government is communist and because of this would not want an effective martial art being taught to the populace that may give them the skills to resist police action. Because of this and the persecution that the old masters (monks of the order of shaolin chan.) fled china. they are now located in the United states. I would say especially due to the awareness of MMA that the best Wing chun would be found anywhere but china. Rather it would be here and in Europe that Wing chun would be allowed to prosper. Seeing has how some prospective chunners myself included are aiming at competeing using wing chun I would conclude that yes the best practicioners of WC are now non-chinese.


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## mook jong man (Aug 11, 2010)

Most of the Wing Chun is in Hong Kong and the chinese government doesn't really give a rats posterior what they do , the practitioners just carry on doing what they have always done.

As for are the best Wing Chun people chinese , well that depends on the type of Wing Chun you are after.

I am from a lineage that tries to cultivate " Nim Lik " or what Sigung Tsui calls Wing Chun Thought Force.
So in my case his is the method I follow and he is Chinese and as far as I'm concerned he is very good at what he does.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 11, 2010)

I think anyone from the era of Jiu Wan and Yip Man, students of theirs who are still alive and teaching, still have the best in skills and knowledge when it comes to Wing Chun.  So yes, those chinese are still the standard.  However, the standard may not be in Hong Kong anymore.  Most of them are scattered all over the world.  Once they die off (in another 20 or 30 years), then I'm not sure where it will be.


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## coffeerox (Aug 11, 2010)

There are people from mainland China that are very impressive and we don't know about them so I would not jump to conclusions as that guy have.  Also students from Yip Man era are still alive such as William Cheung, Chu Shong Tin, Ip Chun, Ip Ching, Hawkins Cheung, Duncan Leung, Allan CK Lee, Leung Ting and others I may have missed.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 11, 2010)

geezer said:


> I was in a conversation a while back during which a very skilled and widely traveled non-Chinese 'Chunner declared that he didn't believe that the most efficient and combat effective WC/WT/VT in the world today was practiced by the Chinese. He felt that the current generation of Chinese "masters" have not advanced the art to the degree that certain non-Chinese masters have. He even stated that members of a certain European group openly claim to hold the highest standard in the world... _and he feels they may be right!_ Needless to say this generated a lot of debate between us. Of course, _there can be no right answer._ Nevertheless it was an interesting discussion, and one that I cannot even imagine taking place 20 years ago.
> 
> So, my question is, based on _your_ experiences, do you feel that the Chinese standard is still the highest, or is the most advanced WC/WT/VT now being trained elsewhere and by non-Chinese individuals? In short, _"Where is the best Wing Chun being taught today?"_


________________________________________________________________
Well Steve-I disagree with your friend.In my judgment there are some very good non Chinese wing chun folks- but there are still lots and lots of very good Chinese wing chun folks-NOT because of their ethnicity but because of their proximity to the source i.e. learning from some key students of Ip Man.What I have seen of mainland wing chun is much less impressive.Wong Sheun Lung ex- brother in law-a non Chinese- is very good and WSL's ex assistant Gary Lam is quite good also and teaches in LA.Ho Kam Ming has produced top flight wing chun people in Macao, Arizona and he has planted good seeds in Toronto.Augustine Fong has continued to develop wing chun very well in Tucson.Fong's best student is an American Chinese- Danny Chan.Fong's best female student was non Chinese but is more into Buddhism for several years.
A Chinese television broadcasting company has been filming different Chinese martial arts.For wing chun they showcased Ho Kam Ming;s school in Macao.
Wing chun continues to spread unevenly and often when folks generalize- they haven't seen it all and are advertising and media driven in forming their opinions.

joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com


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## WC_lun (Aug 11, 2010)

I've no idea if the best are Chinese or not.  I haven't traded hands with every single person that does Wing Chun, so I've no way of knowing.  The best I've ever come across on a personel level is Dale Vits and he is half Chinese.  Maybe you half right


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## coffeerox (Aug 11, 2010)

> What I have seen of mainland wing chun is much less impressive



how is it less impressive, in your expert opinion?


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## Vajramusti (Aug 11, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> how is it less impressive, in your expert opinion?


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Opinion only-Three points among others:

1. With the exception of Sum Nun's better students- bad structure among other things.

2. Historically Mao's regime sytematically attempted to cut off fighting aspects of wu shu. Transmission of wing chun was broken...with wing chun masters exiting the PRC.After Mao they have been trying to reintroduce fighting aspects in PRC.

3. The remainder non Ip man or Sum nun folks have elements of wing chun but their versions are incomplete.Gu Lo got some of Leung Jan but not complete. Pan Nam has a wing chun- hung gar mix.

joy chaudhuri


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## cwk (Aug 12, 2010)

Joy.
I study a mainland version of wing chun, via malaysia- cho family wing chun under Sifu Ku Choi Wah. I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in seeing a wing chun master in the truest sense, to pay him a visit in Singpore where he now resides. 
I guarantee that after a meeting with him you would not think that all mainland versions are unimpressive. He has been practicing wing chun for longer than 99% of people on this forum have been alive and is a living legend here in south east asia.


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## coffeerox (Aug 12, 2010)

Chi Sao in Mainland China


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## cwk (Aug 12, 2010)

Cool clip, thanks.
The thing  with rolling this way ( circular ) is that it's very difficult to apply the usual pak da, tan da, under lap,etc that are commonly practiced by Hong Kong lineages when they do chi sao. This makes it look less refined to the onlooker but anyone who tries it this way will agree that it's much more difficult and IMHO lends itself to more realistic exchanges.
But that's only my opinion so don't get upset people if you don't agree.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




give it a try.Just remember to keep your elbows tucked in, one hand on the inside of your opponents and one on the outside and just start rolling. try it rolling outside to in and also inside to outside.


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## matsu (Aug 12, 2010)

wow....talk about opening a can of worms lol.
its very difficult to say who is the best as our individual opinion will vary as to own experience and unless we can get them all in a room for a fight .....some risen from the grave we will never know.
what i do think is that ,in the same way that ip man took it and evolved it and as several people have done since, wing chun will evolve as the world around it evolves.
certainly my sifu has taken it forward in his way.

nice clip from coffeerrox,
we use that type of chi sau as well as the typically seen version.when i see our advanced guys it looks incredibly untidy but it is as close to a controlled fight as they can get.
matsu


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## Vajramusti (Aug 12, 2010)

cwk said:


> Joy.
> I study a mainland version of wing chun, via malaysia- cho family wing chun under Sifu Ku Choi Wah. I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in seeing a wing chun master in the truest sense, to pay him a visit in Singpore where he now resides.
> I guarantee that after a meeting with him you would not think that all mainland versions are unimpressive. He has been practicing wing chun for longer than 99% of people on this forum have been alive and is a living legend here in south east asia.


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I have not met him. When i went to Singapore several years ago- I tried to meet other martial artists and I met with a  WC friend who I have lost touch with. A funny thing- I did chi sao with my friend at one corner of the Singapore airport while waiting for a plane.Probably Sifu Ku had not arrived there yet. I saw the "rolling" in the link posted by Coffeerox. I understand that rolling but much prefer the Ip Man way-which when done right has unerring sense of the center line at all times. But I understand different folks have different options and choices.Do you know Hendrik Santos? he knows much about Cho Family wc. I respect what others do.Good wishes
joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Aug 12, 2010)

cwk said:


> Cool clip, thanks.
> The thing with rolling this way ( circular ) is that it's very difficult to apply the usual pak da, tan da, under lap,etc that are commonly practiced by Hong Kong lineages when they do chi sao. This makes it look less refined to the onlooker but anyone who tries it this way will agree that it's much more difficult and IMHO lends itself to more realistic exchanges.
> But that's only my opinion so don't get upset people if you don't agree.
> 
> ...


 
It looked to me as though there were giant gaping holes down the centre line in which someone with a decent Tan Sau could have pierced through.
Probably also would have been possible to run palms on them and hit into the centre as they keep trying to force your hands out into that big circle

But I will reserve proper judgement until after I give it a go with one of my students tomorrow , but I imagine he will just think why is this guys hands so far off the centre line as he palm strikes me repeatedly in the chest.


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## cwk (Aug 12, 2010)

Mook,
It does seem like it leaves a big hole in the centre to start, at least that's what I feel when i do it anyway lol, that's why I said it's more difficult. after some practice though it gets tighter down the middle. 
I personally like to train 4 different types of rolling, including the tan,bong roll most commonly seen. I feel they all develop needed attributes. The bong, tan roll is very good for constantly pressuring the centre line and develops this skill well. for me the circular rolling is good training for when your initial strike is blocked or parried and you use circular movement to regain the line and either trap and strike or just finish your strike.
if your going to try rolling this way, remember to keep your elbows into your sides and keep the circles small, not big like some on the clip.Also try it inside and out.

joy,
I don't know Hendrik but I know of him from stuff on the internet. His sifu Cho hoong Choi and Ku sifu both learned from Cho On.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 12, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Chi Sao in Mainland China


 
I think this clip just proves Vajramusti's point of mainland Wing Chun being a little less impressive. That's what my chi sao looked like when I first started training and my sifu and senior brother's just hit me at will.

One other thing, I think the chinese tend to be the standard when it comes to Wing Chun is because the concepts of yin and yang are so intertwined in Wing Chun, the chinese culture, and everyday life. It's natural for them (chinese) to understand its use (concepts) in the arts because it's so much a part of them and living.


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## matsu (Aug 12, 2010)

i had to go back and re look at the clip.... and agai....and again lol.
still interesting clip but........
we def do not windmill like they did, my chest would be black and blue if we did lol.
matsu


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## hunt1 (Aug 12, 2010)

The real question is what is your basis for determining "best".

 Skill at chi sau? Real fighting ability? etc. If the standard is real usage against other skilled  opponents in a sparring ,ring, starting apart and waiting till both are ready type of setting then I would tilt to those in the west but nothing is exclusive. However many of the old chinese masters really don't have and never had real fighting skills.

 For example some one mentions Yip Chun and Shawn R. . Yip Chun has said he never had a fight in his life. He never used wing chun for its intended purpose. So how can he possible teach what he doesn't know. If you have never been in real fights against other skilled people you can not possibly know how to apply wing chun in those situations.

My last Ip Man sifu was TST. His is my favorite Ip Man wing chun version but I don't think he nor most of his students could stop a take down from a skilled high school wrestler. Not because he doesn't have the skill but because until you train against a good shoot you do not have the context to put your knowledge into practical application.

 I think those in the west have over the last 15 years or so have put more time into training against MMA type of skills  and therefore have made more progress in making their wing chun more effective in real fighting situations.


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## matsu (Aug 12, 2010)

/\
that was a very good post 
nicely put
matsu


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## geezer (Aug 12, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> The real question is what is your basis for determining "best".
> 
> Skill at chi sau? Real fighting ability? etc. If the standard is real usage against other skilled opponents in a sparring ,ring, starting apart and waiting till both are ready type of setting then I would tilt to those in the west but nothing is exclusive...
> 
> I think those in the west have over the last 15 years or so have put more time into training against MMA type of skills and therefore have made more progress in making their wing chun more effective in real fighting situations.


 
I think my friend was thinking along the same lines. And I believe he was referring to the younger generation of "masters"... those in their forties or early fifties. We all share great respect for the older generation including Great Grandmaster Ip Man and his prominent disciples. But what about the younger generation who are confronting more diverse approaches to unarmed combat? As the art adapts and evolves, where are the most effective fighters emerging? I believe my friend would concurr with _Hunt. _If you sift the wheat from the chaff, there are some very effective fighters emerging in the US and Europe.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 12, 2010)

Hi Hunt1 and Stephen--I respect your opinions but I happen to have a different perspective. There are lots of "fighters" with different backgrounds. 
One does not have to learn wing chun to fight. But wing chun is a very effective fighting system. I may not have met who you have met and you may not have met who I have met.Our data bases for judgment calls  are likely to be different.
With the right wing chun  training, a person Chinese or non Chinese can deal with a grapplers take down attempt... and a "sprawl" is not really wing chun and there are counters to sprawls.Cheers.

joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Aug 12, 2010)

While TST's Hong Kong students do probably not deal with take downs as it is not really in their culture to do so.

I can assure you that his Australian disciples do , we don't have a culture of high school wrestling in this country , but what we do have is a sport called Rugby League , a very brutal game in which no padding is worn.

Most boys in Australia will grow up playing this game and are taught to tackle from a very young age , so consequently in a lot of street fights a hard and fast spear tackle to the ground will usuually be on the cards.

So in our training we will work on defences against tackles from all angles , my favourite counter is to shift one foot back in a full body pivot , slap my Fook Sau down hard on the back of their neck/skull as I control one of the grabbing arms , if the Fook Sau hasn't knocked them out then you can ram them head first into a wall or direct their face down into the concrete.

But stopping them from completing the grip in the first instance is crucial , so that they're forward drive can be absorbed with your arms and pivot.
If they can get a direct connection with your body ie their shoulder to  your waist or leg , then the situation becomes a lot more dire .


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## coffeerox (Aug 12, 2010)

My interpetation of the video is that they were really throwing attacks out there and what I saw was actual redirects which means the technique was successful.  Especially the guy in black.  Read the comments on the video as well, the guy who posted the video was the one who recorded it and have some interesting things to say.

Here's one with Ip Ching and Samuel Kwok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA&NR=1&feature=fvwp


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 12, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> My interpetation of the video is that they were really throwing attacks out there and what I saw was actual redirects which means the technique was successful. Especially the guy in black. Read the comments on the video as well, the guy who posted the video was the one who recorded it and have some interesting things to say.
> 
> Here's one with Ip Ching and Samuel Kwok
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA&NR=1&feature=fvwp


 
The mainland Wing Chun guy's chi sao looks nothing like Yip Ching and Sam Kwok's chi sao.  The mainland guys are doing a lot of chasing the hands, swinging wildly because they are trying to stick and/or unstick to get something on each other, which makes it look like redirecting.  Their arms are swing way too much out of the centerline, they are all over the place.  Plus, they are jumping around, have no stance or horse to speak of.  Still pretty sloppy, very bad examples of what chi sao is supposd to be or how most Wing Chun people do it.  But if that's what they call chi sao, so be it.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 12, 2010)

Read the comments to the clip of the mainland WC guys . . . 

quote 
'sjander29 says,
craft....As far as Aggressive goes , ...I think it`s exactly what ph8tel said,..." on camera ,...the Face is involved so everyone tries to Win. As soon as you try to win at Chi Sao ,we stiffen up ,and ...quality takes a nose dive. Also ,what are you comparing this to for Aggression? Check out other Wing Chun videos -would an elbow to the head , a chop to the throat , or a stomp to the knee be less aggressive?...Actually&#65279; , the 3rd pair of players were Excellent ! Pure " Yiu Choi" by the way.

sjander29 11 months ago' unquote.

He says when a camera gets pulled out, it's all about saving face and their chi sao gets sloppy.


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## BlueVino (Aug 12, 2010)

geezer said:


> So, my question is, based on _your_ experiences, do you feel that the Chinese standard is still the highest, or is the most advanced WC/WT/VT now being trained elsewhere and by non-Chinese individuals? In short, _"Where is the best Wing Chun being taught today?"_



Not WC specific, I haven't touched hands much outside of my lineage.
I've heard from a couple of knowledgeable people that the Cultural Revolution drove a lot of the kung fu masters away from mainland China. Many of the old Chinese masters are living out their days in Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, etc. It's far less clear to me if they're passing their kung fu on to anyone outside of their families.

From my overall martial arts exposure, I've attended seminars and such with the highest hands from all over the world.  I haven't seen a significant variation in skill that could be attributed to nationality.


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## Danny T (Aug 12, 2010)

Hmm! That was somewhat entertaining. I would advise small movements small mistakes, large movements large mistakes. A lot of motion out of and away from the center.
Don't know how I would fare with them but I know this much. If I gave zepedawingchun (as well as most of my wing chun brothers) that much of an opening he would own my center instantly.


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## mook jong man (Aug 12, 2010)

I tried that big circle type of rolling today with one of my private students , and there is absolutely no way on this earth you can protect your centreline.

We were smashing each other in the chest left right and centre , the only value I can see in it is maybe using it as a warm up .

Probably start off rolling that way to mobilise and relax the joints , then once your suitably relaxed start closing the circle and bringing it all to the centre.


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## cwk (Aug 12, 2010)

it's difficult, but with practice, it can be done. You've got to keep the circular movements as small as possible.
I wouldn't recommend only rolling this way though, you need to practice the other types as well.


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## coffeerox (Aug 12, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I tried that big circle type of rolling today with one of my private students , and there is absolutely no way on this earth you can protect your centreline.
> 
> We were smashing each other in the chest left right and centre , the only value I can see in it is maybe using it as a warm up .
> 
> Probably start off rolling that way to mobilise and relax the joints , then once your suitably relaxed start closing the circle and bringing it all to the centre.



Master Wong does something like mainland China Chi Sao, what do you think of the rolling shown here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dloKi9VNwHM&feature=channel


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## mook jong man (Aug 13, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Master Wong does something like mainland China Chi Sao, what do you think of the rolling shown here?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dloKi9VNwHM&feature=channel


 
God where do I start.
I suppose I'll start from the ground up.
He suffers from the same thing the others did in the other clips.

No stance , he is standing up too high and leaning in.
Upper and lower body unlocking at the hips no body unity.
Relaxation doesn't appear to be a priority in his Chi sau and he is using too much brute strength which might explain why his shoulders and upper body are all over the place.
Hands crossing over the centreline which leads to being easily trapped by somebody dropping their Fook Sau on your crossed Bong and Fook and then punching over the top.
He is going  fast , but this is probably an effort to cover up a multitude of sins.
But the most important thing of all is he has to keep his mouth shut and lose the dumb **** sound effects , he sounds like he's auditioning for a chop socky film.


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## cwk (Aug 13, 2010)

This is the type of rolling I'm talking about. from about 1.52 min in.


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## mook jong man (Aug 13, 2010)

cwk said:


> This is the type of rolling I'm talking about. from about 1.52 min in.


 

Very interesting the form he was doing looks like a conglomeration of all the forms rolled into one along with some movements that I have never seen before and couldn't even guess what the application would be.

With the Chi sau it looks like it is totally driven by the forearms , without any involvement from the elbows.

The angles are not maintained in the arms at all , and it looks to me like the whole thing is derived from the Huen sau movement but without keeping the angles of the arms .

Without using the elbows to drive forward I don't think there is anyway of attacking the opponents stance or structure , you are just sticking and following the opponents wrists.

 Any redirection would be done with just the forearm requiring more muscular effort instead of using  the weight and angle of the whole arm

I won't be trying this one mate , I have enough trouble trying to keep my angles now .


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## profesormental (Aug 13, 2010)

Greetings!


Interesting stuff. Even some Neutral Bow stances.

Master Wong is a colorful character and quite funny at times. His Chi Sao and techniques are strong, yet somewhat muscled.

Chi Sao at one level is very much like "pummeling" in wrestling, except that the forearms are the contact points. It is used to create certain points of reference to train certain techniques safely.

The reason it is done in a certain "relaxed" manner is that the point is not to overpower or overspeed your training partner with strikes...

it is to position yourself in a posture of advantage and your training partner in a negative martial posture.

If you develop these positioning sequences, when you train against attacks that have significant intent, you can then train them and turn them from soft synaptic paths to "hardened" synaptic paths that are inoculated against the adrenal stress syndrome.

Only then will your skills be there in the event of a self defense type situation, where the adrenal stress syndrome takes place. Another fact is that adrenal stress training is stimulus specific, so the stimulus (punch, or strike, or grab, or whatever) must be practiced and applied in a realistic manner (with reasonable safety parameters) as to create the necessary effects.

Too much speed and power will cause your attacker to cover up and/or disengage, making most of your attacks that work in Chi Sao practice, impractical. The purpose is control of positioning so that you can strike from a position of advantage.

Control is done via strikes, manipulations, etc. Timing and sensitivity are important, as are the sequences and objectives. To reach higher levels of practicality, the adrenal stress training should be against real attacks as encountered in real situations.

Thus Chi Sao is a step, towards self defense drills.

There are many unknown practitioners of Wing Chun that I'm sure have great skills, here in the Americas, as well as in China and Europe and everywhere in the planet.

The essence of Wing Chun is in the name... Eternal Springtime... Eternal Growth.

My experience is that Wing Chun will change to get even better, as it must. Many paths will converge and look similar, others won't.

My training has made the Wing Chun I train and teach change, measurably for the better. It is still in a process of refinement and change as I keep discovering and improving upon what I have. Interestingly enough, my Wing Chun doesn't look that dissimilar from others... yet it FEELS different, as I have to make less effort to obtain even greater effects.

Those that do this in their daily practice can be considered among the best. Those that don't run the risk of stagnating.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

P.S. Try that Chi Sao against someone trying to crack your head open at full speed with straight and/or elliptical punches... the angles of contact are different and I'm sure the arms will collapse against the pressure of the strikes. To e more specific I would have to go on a case by case basis, so ask if you're interested.


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## matsu (Aug 13, 2010)

we do that sort of rolling too but as mook has said we are told to control with our elbow control and "intention"
not that im any good at it lol

oh and MISTER wongs chi sau,he might be able to kick my *** everyday of the week ,...... but not with that chisau! 

matsu


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 13, 2010)

Danny T said:


> Hmm! That was somewhat entertaining. I would advise small movements small mistakes, large movements large mistakes. A lot of motion out of and away from the center.
> Don't know how I would fare with them but I know this much. If I gave zepedawingchun (as well as most of my wing chun brothers) that much of an opening he would own my center instantly.


 
Hi SiDai Danny, thanks for the complement.  And I know you would do the same to me if I gave you half as much of an opening as they did.  Of course, I'd have to help pick you up off the floor afterwards because you would laugh so hard after hitting me a dozen times or so and laughed yourself to falling down.

You going to be in Atlanta this weekend for the Chi Sao Workshop?  Unfortunately, I can't make it.  One of my students is having a Grand Opening for his Thai Boxing class and I promised him I'd be there.  But I have a couple of others who will be going.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 13, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> God where do I start.
> I suppose I'll start from the ground up.
> 
> He suffers from the same thing the others did in the other clips.
> ...


 
I agree with everything mook jong man says, but you can see Wong Master has some skills.  He still doesn't look anything like the guys from the mainland in the previous clip.  

What I have noticed from time to time, when you have someone with a good amount of skill working with someone who is not their equal in skill and ability, a lot of times the greatly skilled person just does everything a bit lazy.  Like they don't focus on their stance, or proper elbow position, closing off their center, feet pointed outward instead of pidgeon-toed, things like that.  They do it lazily because they don't feel the person they are working with is any kind of a threat to their over all structure, center, etc.  I'll bet if Wong Master was working with someone closer to his skill level, everything would change, he'd close up his center, lower his stance, relax and focus on doing everything correct.  Just my 2 cents.


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## mook jong man (Aug 13, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> I agree with everything mook jong man says, but you can see Wong Master has some skills. He still doesn't look anything like the guys from the mainland in the previous clip.
> 
> What I have noticed from time to time, when you have someone with a good amount of skill working with someone who is not their equal in skill and ability, a lot of times the greatly skilled person just does everything a bit lazy. Like they don't focus on their stance, or proper elbow position, closing off their center, feet pointed outward instead of pidgeon-toed, things like that. They do it lazily because they don't feel the person they are working with is any kind of a threat to their over all structure, center, etc. I'll bet if Wong Master was working with someone closer to his skill level, everything would change, he'd close up his center, lower his stance, relax and focus on doing everything correct. Just my 2 cents.


 
Thats true he has got some skill , but how much better could he be if he did everything properly.

Also its fair to point out that working with a less skilled overly compliant student that just lets you trap them and use them like a human wooden dummy will make anyone look like they are the next Yip Man.

I just think the guy is dodgy , I remember a while ago now we had a discussion on here about him and apparently someone said that he won't reveal his lineage or who he was taught by , which seems very suspect to me .


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## coffeerox (Aug 13, 2010)

My theory about the mainland and Michael Wong's version of WC is that, while it lacks the fine body structure training of modern Ip Man versions, it possibly makes up for in physical fitness.  

I've seen in MW's videos that his training program is very difficult and it's designed to train balance, strengthening the legs, cardio work, etc.  There's one where his student stands on top of a ball and does Siu Nim Tao on that.  Michael Wong himself uses it to train with the Luk Dim Boon Kwan.  I heard him explain to a student what it was for, just for simplicity sake, it trains the adduction which is found in all WC stances.


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