# Black Belt When???????



## AvPKenpo (Feb 21, 2002)

I am not posting this as a bash but as a sincere inquiry of knowledge.

My sister-in-law much to her on demise is taking TKD.  Because, that is what she can afford, and I don't have time to instruct her beyond my work and class schedule.  She has been taking classes at a local Community Center, since the beginning of January.  Last night her instructor let her know that if she works really hard that within a year she could test for Black Belt.  I understand that what she is taking is a Sport Art, but do you think that it is fair for an individual to be handed a Black Belt within that short amount of time?  Do you think that it could cause any trouble for them down the road(such as thinking that they may be able to defend themselves)?  And is there really that little of material in TKD?  That seems like a very short amount of time for such an honor.

I know that all schools are different, and I understand that there are TKD practitioners that do teach some self-defense.  And again I am not trying to step on any toes.

Michael


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## arnisador (Feb 21, 2002)

This might have been a good post for the Tae Kwon Do forum! In TKD it isn't uncommon to get a black belt in two to two and a half years. About a year, which is what I understand that you are suggesting, seems a bit short. Some arts may be like that--it was not uncommon in Modern Arnis at first, I believe--but it's very rare for a year to be reasonable and especially not if the eprson has no other martial arts training.

I personally find the idea a bit off-putting but I can't control what other martial artists do and wouldn't try. As for trouble down the road, there could conceiveably be some credability problems if she instructs but frankly I wouldn't expect so within the TKD community where this is not outlandishly fast.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 21, 2002)

Well, each to his own.  This is a free country and as such anyone can do anything they want to.  If you and I wanted to open a hamburger hut we could no matter what the quality or price.  If someone buys the product and we can pay the rent and make money it will stay there.  If people get sick or folks find a better product down the street ~ well so be it as well.

Personal opinions are extreemely wide spread on this topic.   Most professional and any of the top credible studios have curriculums that will benefit the students WITH the ability to keep the doors open.

Giving a good to excellent product at a reasonable investment is the key. 
:asian:


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## Cthulhu (Feb 22, 2002)

It varies from system to system, and ultimately, from instructor to instructor.  In Okinawa-te, a five-year blackbelt is considered pretty fast, the usualy time being from about 7 to 10 years.  On the other end of the spectrum, Joe Lewis supposedly got his black belt in six months.

Cthulhu


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## Kirk (Feb 22, 2002)

SHOCKING to say the least.   I wasn't in TKD for too long, but
a friend of mine stayed and is testing for red belt this weekend.
He says he learned all his kicks by orange belt, but you have to
perform them all at a certain level of ability depending on the 
rank you're testing for.  In addition, there's a new form to learn
per belt, and breaking at different levels of difficulty for each belt.
In his school  you have to break a cynder block for black.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2002)

Joe Lewis was awarded his black in such a short time for several reasons.  

# 1  YOu must look at the time in history - mid 60's
# 2  He was in fantastic shape and a body builder

# 3  He had a marines attitude and could back it up

# 4  The Koreans had no choice when he started beating up all thier students as a white belt.

He was a unique individual at a unique time in history!


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## Chiduce (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
> *I am not posting this as a bash but as a sincere inquiry of knowledge.
> 
> My sister-in-law much to her on demise is taking TKD.  Because, that is what she can afford, and I don't have time to instruct her beyond my work and class schedule.  She has been taking classes at a local Community Center, since the beginning of January.  Last night her instructor let her know that if she works really hard that within a year she could test for Black Belt.  I understand that what she is taking is a Sport Art, but do you think that it is fair for an individual to be handed a Black Belt within that short amount of time?  Do you think that it could cause any trouble for them down the road(such as thinking that they may be able to defend themselves)?  And is there really that little of material in TKD?  That seems like a very short amount of time for such an honor.
> ...


 There is usually a specified amount of training hours of instruction that a particular system requires for shodan testing! If you trained 1 hour per day 2 days per week this would log you in at 8 hours per month. Times 12 would be 96 training hours per year. At this rate the student woud test for shodan in about 3 to 4 yrs. depending on the sytyle. Now if this dojo trained was supplemented with at least 10 hrs. of training per week. Times 4, this would log you in at 40 + 8 = 48 hrs. per month. Times 12 would log you in at 576 hrs. of combined training within twelve months! It would be safe to say the one could test for shodan with this type of training within 13 to 16 months; if the instructor see's the proper improvements within the student! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2002)

The hours involved is insignificant compared to the content and quality of the lesson plan and training within any given time frame.   As an example....... in many studios that I have observed, a good portion of class time is spent in stretching (a real time eater) and not a lot of time given to basics skill development ..... (stance, blocks, strikes, kicks, foot maneuvers etc.) another class exercise....  (Heavy bag work) was a huge time waster the mannor that  I  observed (one student would punch or kick the bag a few times while the rest of the class watched....).    In an hours class....... there  was only about 15 minutes of curriculum teaching and the rest was conditioning.  Now don't get me wrong all these drills are well and good ........ my point being is how the time is spent during each lesson.

:asian:


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## Cthulhu (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *The hours involved is insignificant compared to the content and quality of the lesson plan and training within any given time frame.   As an example....... in many studios that I have observed, a good portion of class time is spent in stretching (a real time eater) and not a lot of time given to basics skill development ..... (stance, blocks, strikes, kicks, foot maneuvers etc.) another class exercise....  (Heavy bag work) was a huge time waster the mannor that  I  observed (one student would punch or kick the bag a few times while the rest of the class watched....).    In an hours class....... there  was only about 15 minutes of curriculum teaching and the rest was conditioning.  Now don't get me wrong all these drills are well and good ........ my point being is how the time is spent during each lesson.
> 
> :asian: *



For the first year or so of my Okinawa-te training, my instructor would have me in a horse stance the majority of the time, working on basic blocks and punches.  We only did warm-up stretching for 5 to 10 minutes.  At the time, I didn't particularly enjoy staying in a wide horse stance for long periods of time doing nothing but basic blocks and strikes, but looking back now, I greatly appreciate that method of instruction.  It really got me to nail my basics.

Later on, when he started to get more students, my instructor altered the training, and not so much time was spent on basics.  I think the rapid advance through the basics for the newer students left them at a significant disadvantage.  Sure, they could do some of the more advanced waza and forms, but their punches, kicks, and stances all lacked one thing or another.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *The hours involved is insignificant compared to the content and quality of the lesson plan and training within any given time frame.   As an example....... in many studios that I have observed, a good portion of class time is spent in stretching (a real time eater)*



This is a good point, as is Chiduce's point that hours training matter. I still believe that one needs a certain amount of time to absorb what one is learning, to reflect on it, so I cannot say that I believe that it's _only_ hours spent training that count, but I do agree that if, like in the old days, one spent many hours per day training, every day, under a good instructor then one would advance much more rapidly. As someone else mentioned w.r.t. Joe Lewis, in the 50s and 60s I believe a year to black belt for servicemen was much more common.

But as to having much of the class time spent on stretching or other exercises--sometimes this reflects a philosophy of training for combat in a certain way or a concern for training safely or what have you, but all too often I think it represents an instrcutor who is too lazy to teach the full hour and as such it cheats the student.


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## arnisador (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Later on, when he started to get more students, my instructor altered the training, and not so much time was spent on basics.*



There are so many examples of systems being watered down to fit the fact that in modern life one cannot spend three hours a day, seven days a week training. I know that Uechi-ryu's head(s) grappled with this problem in just those terms and adjusted the training because of it. It's partly a jutsu/do thing and partly a recognition of the fact that things aren't quite as dangerous for many of us as they were a few hundred years ago.


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## GouRonin (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *In an hours class....... there  was only about 15 minutes of curriculum teaching and the rest was conditioning.  Now don't get me wrong all these drills are well and good ........ my point being is how the time is spent during each lesson.*



I like classes where there is an abundance of material and minimal conditioning as I go elsewhere for that on my own. My preference. I understand many people go to a martial arts school for the work out too and they pay for that specifically. To each their own I suppose.


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## donald (Feb 22, 2002)

Well as I see it(BIG Barney Fife sniff), a class needs to be divided as equally as possible. 15-20 min. warm ups/conditioning, 15-20 on basics, i.e. falls,rolls,basic kicks, and so on, and so forth... Class structure can always be set up around the people in attendance. If you have alot of ze beginners. Then class should should probably centered on za basics. I believe if you will follow this sage advice. You will see a dramtic leap in enrollment, and you'll smell better too!
Salute in Christ,
Just Tryin ta hep  :shrug:


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## GouRonin (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Well as I see it(BIG Barney Fife sniff)*



Ah ha ha ha ha! Oh man...that made me laugh...thanx!


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## Kirk (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Arnisador_
> in modern life one cannot spend three hours a day, seven days a week training



Wouldn't that be cool to be able to do?


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## AvPKenpo (Feb 22, 2002)

Yeah, sometimes I am evious of my instructors who are at my dojo for 10 hours a day 5 days a week, and more.  I only get about 9 hours a week at the dojo with an additional 3-4 hours at home. Which for Chiduce,  that would mean I get about 624 hours a year and for 5 years a whopping 3120 hours.

Michael


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## arnisador (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *
> Wouldn't that be cool to be able to do? *



Train all day long? I fantasized about teaching for a living for a while but preferred not to have to cross money with martial arts for philosophical reasons. But yes, I'd love to be able to spend hours a day doing it, as Mr. Hartman and I did one summer when I was still in school.


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## shine (Feb 22, 2002)

My comments inserted...

Originally posted by Goldendragon7 
*Joe Lewis was awarded his black in such a short time for several reasons.  

># 1  YOu must look at the time in history - mid 60's

My sense of the history tells me that dan ratings in Okinawa probably came into common usage sometime during the 50's and 60's.  Some Okinawan instructors were faster at incorporating the Japanese ranking structure than others.  These instructors probably were just figuring out how they wanted to use the rank system.

Did you mean something else?

># 2  He was in fantastic shape and a body builder

By all accounts.

># 3  He had a marines attitude and could back it up

Sure.

># 4  The Koreans had no choice when he started beating up all thier students as a white belt.

Um... I think you mean Okinawans.  And my understanding is that sparring was de-emphasized in his Okinawan training.  His instructors focussed more on basics and kata.  

My knowledge of Joe Lewis lore comes from the material on his web page, and not from the man himself.  There is an amusing quote on one of the posted articles where Joe says he didn't get to spar with too many native Okinawan's, but they (the Okinawans) enjoyed watching the big Americans hit each other.

Let me add one other explanation for Joe Lewis's seemingly rapid advancement: Americans have re-interpretted the black belt/shodan rating to be more than it is to the Japanese who invented it.  A shodan means you are ready to begin training.   To many that would mean you have solid basics.  Nothing more.  

Furthermore, to an Okinawan instructor during the 60's sparring might not be a method for determining advancement.  In case you are curious, my conclusions about Okinawan mentality towards sparring are drawn from my earnest reading of two sources:

1. Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters by Shoshin Nagamine
2. The Heart of Karate-Do by Shigeru Egami

I am sure y'all will correct me if you have heard different.

>He was a unique individual at a unique time in history! 

I agree.*


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 23, 2002)

I must say that when I was much younger and didn't have a family.... "living" at the studio for 10 hours a day 6 days a week and attending tournaments most every weekend for 20 years was a dream come true, especially when the enrollment was at or about 200 and I was actually making money (average 10K a month +), then in 1988 that all changed.  ** sigh **

It is a great business but business it is.  It is hard to make a hobby and a passion your livelihood!  

There hasn't been a day go by in the last 31 years that I didn't have thoughts on Kenpo...... (sick huh) LOL....... I guess I'm what you call a fanatic.

Still, I enjoy teaching and sharing the Art of Kenpo more than ever....
:asian:


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## Dave Simmons (Feb 28, 2002)

Well I have read the threads about Joe Lewis and his first ranking. Let me clear up this area a little!

Joe Lewis trained at a higher level than most in the 60's or the 70's, 80's etc. He trained night and day with fellow Americans or Okinawan stylists. He was in the Marine's RECON when he wasn't on duty in Okinawa he lifted weights and trained...

He has told me and others when it came to promotion it was posted at the dojo. To receive a shodan rating he had to beat or best those senior to his rank. The Americans took it seriously obviously. Otherwise Joe would not have an impact in the US when he competed. I had the opportunity to watch him perform Okinawan Kata. He was tremedous and this was in the 60's.

Peace,

Dave Simmons


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 1, 2002)

I agree with you Dave........ he was a madman! lol  he was a fanatic and realized that many of those guys over there were no match for him.  (Tiger coming out in his youth)  just so happens that he could back it up!!!   very very well..... for a long time. 

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *in 1988 that all changed.*



I hear a lot of people dived in 1988 and that time frame. What is up with that?


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2002)

Major economic downturn and tax laws changed.
plus I got divorced!


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## Ronin (Mar 21, 2002)

The way I see it Mr. C is that the real winner students stuck with you during the tough times and didnt fade away with the times.


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## clapping_tiger (Mar 22, 2002)

I am not a black belt yet, but I have been studying in my current school for a little more than 2 years.  If I had already received my black belt I think I would feel cheated.  You didnt really work for anything.  Receiving your black belt should mean something and be a turning point in your life. I go to tournaments and seminars and see black belts that dont have the skills that I have.  I am not bragging but I am stating a fact that to many people get their black belts too soon.  They get cocky and think thats it I have this down.  Your black belt should be the beginning of your journey not the end of it.  I feel that once you have your black belt it states that I have all the basics down.  My stances are perfect, my technique is almost flawless, and I know what I am talking about and so on.  You cant accomplish this in a year or two, unless you are that person who can spend 8-10 hours a day in the dojo.  I have been told and I agree with the statement, that to earn your black belt it should take as long as someone earning a college degree.  It worries me that we have people walking around with black belts that they bought, and have not earned.  If these people run into truouble on the street, they might not have the experience to really defend themselves.
:soapbox:


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## Battousai (Mar 22, 2002)

Thats a good point clapping_tiger, but then having gone to college and graduating with a computer science degree, I would have to say that getting a black belt should be harder then college. I think I probabily put more time into martial arts back when I was in high school then I ever put into college. Of course I've put more time into playing video games then college as well.


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## Rainman (Mar 22, 2002)

That does not sound unreasonable being that the average time for a ba/bs is now five years.   I think more than anything it depends on the individual and how good their respective guides may be.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

usually take 4 1/2  to 6 years of at least 2 to  3 times a week (always depending upon the individual of course and I should add the instructor) that is pretty average.
:asian:


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## tunetigress (Mar 23, 2002)

Funny how many people seem to see the achievement of a Black Belt as the end of the journey and the granting of some kind of god-like power.  You can wrap a Black Belt around just about any size of bag of crap folks!  What is actually living inside that belt  is what is truly of value, and sometimes it is really hard for the uninitiated to see past that darn belt and listen beyond the boasting and bravado.  I don't care how long it took MY insructor to get his Black Belt, nor do I care how long it's gonna take me to get mine.  Different paths to walk down for us all, I guess.     :asian:


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## KenpoGirl (Mar 23, 2002)

I was working on a time line of about the 4 to 4 1/2 years for my BB.  That's with going to class 5 days a week and of course before I blew out my knee.  

I didn't want it for the "god-like power" as far as I know that wasn't a Standard option, you'd have to pay way more for that belt.  

I wanted it for the sence of accomplishment it would give me.  Still do.  But I know that it's going to take another 4 plus years to get my BB, as I'll be starting over again.  I'm fine with that, all the more challenge, when the time comes.

dot


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

Time is a lose, .... I said lose goal......  it really is not something you focus on.  Focus on the current material and doing it as good as possible and listen to your instructor.  Spend more time on getting familiar and good with your basic skills and less about how much time its gonna take you.

:asian:


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## tunetigress (Mar 23, 2002)

Lucky for me, I got all the time in the world.  Nuthin but time on my hands.  Sounds like a Jazz song.  Hmmmm.....  Maybe I should write one.....


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

With all there is to Kenpo, you're still in a time crunch!  LOL 
So get started and do what you can with what time there is.

:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 23, 2002)

Great Attitute,
It is the hard work and the spirt that one puts into learninthat makes any accomplishment worth while. I have the idea from reading your posts that neither of you would want a blaclk belt if it where eazy.
Shadow


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

The weight comes form the struggle!

Good Timber.....

The Tree that never had to fight,
For sun and sky and air and light,
That stood out in the open plain
And always got its share of rain
Never became a forest king,
but lived and died a scrubby thing.
The man who never had to toil,
Who never had to win his share,
Of sun and sky an light and air,
Never became a manly man
But lived and died as he began
Good Timber does not grow in ease
The stronger wind the tougher trees.
The farther sky the greater length
The more the storm the more the strength
By sun and cold. by rain and snows.
In tree or man good timer grows
Where thickest stands the forest growth
We find the patriarchs of both
and they hold converse with the stars
whose broken branches show the scars
Of many winds and much of strife
This is the common law of life.

:asian:


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## KenpoGirl (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *I have the idea from reading your posts that neither of you would want a blaclk belt if it where eazy.
> Shadow *



LOL  you could be right, shadow.  It was always a pet peeve with me, that someone (usually female) could advance in the ranks, (my previous school) without hardly breaking a sweat or denting a punching bag.

I think I would be a drill sargents dream, the more someone pushes me on, the harder I'll work.  The old "I'll show you" attitude, of course that only if the "pushing" is done with respect.  I tend to fold like a wet newspaper the moment someone is rude or insulting for no reason, take all the air outta me.  

_"Ooops, I guess I just let my secret weakness outta the bag.  Just call me Samson"_ 

These days my attitude is a lot different.  I need a reason to train and that's not like me, just something I have to get past.  Soon I hope.  I look forward to the day I start training full time again. Coming home exhausted but feeling great because I worked hard and did the best I could.   Those were good days.   

dot

BTW Dennis, that's a great Poem, very thoughtful.
I think I'll print that out an put it on my wall.  
Maybe it will give me some inspiration.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

Infinite Insights ....
Book 3
Page198

You should be studying your books more!

I think you have them all!

:asian:


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## KenpoGirl (Mar 23, 2002)

Caught with my hand in the cookie jar, as it were.

You are right of course.  Though I doubt I'll ever be able to quote it page and chapter as you do.

 

dot


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

No negative thoughts!
:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 24, 2002)

You have to remeber that GD has been training longer than some of the members here have been alive.  hey wait a minute, i think I am starting to get into that category myself these days.

No my hair isn't going gray it is camoflage to help me blend in with the old guys.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Like Mr. Parker said....... "My hair is turning grey too........ Well, it can turn anything it wants....... as long as it doesn't turn loose!"

:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Like Mr. Parker said....... "My hair is turning grey too........ Well, it can turn anything it wants....... as long as it doesn't turn loose!"
> 
> :asian: *



"it needs washing too, but I figure if it's gonna fall out, it can just
take the dirt with it!"   - Gallagher


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Parallel Hair........... who needs it!!

:rofl:


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## tunetigress (Mar 24, 2002)

Oh c'mon you guys, don't go getting me started on HAIR now, yet another of my pet peeves!!!!    :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

You are close to big foot up there and he is very hairy!


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## tunetigress (Mar 24, 2002)

GD, I don't recall describing my hubby to you......  hmmmm...


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 25, 2002)

Gawd!


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## Kroy (Apr 7, 2003)

It really doesnt matter the time it takes to get your Black Belt, what matters is that you believe in your accomplishments and are confident in your skills.


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