# Chin Na



## 7starmantis (Feb 4, 2004)

Who regularly practices Chin Na in their training?
 If you do, do you have a favorite China Na technique or move?
I really like wrist locks, especially those that lead to strikes. 

Peeling the Orange is one of my favorites.

7sm


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## pete (Feb 5, 2004)

I practice chin na as part of tai chi training, mostly as manuevers relate to the form.  when we do stray from what is in the form, the techniques don't really have names... so..

what is peeling the orange?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 5, 2004)

It is hard I think to find common names for Chin Na techniques. Peeling the oragne is on ethat works from a grab to the wrist. (It can be used in many different scenarios, but this is the easiest to learn it from) The opponant grabs your wrist, you rotate at the elbow basically bringing the palm of your hand up and facing you. You then use your other hand to reach around in front of your raise arm adn grab their hand. Your fingers should really be placed at their knuckles. Basically then you "Peel the Orange" peeling their fingers off your wrist and continuing the circle to effectivly perform a wrist lock.

It can be used off of a punch as well.

7sm


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## wingchunner (Feb 5, 2004)

On a regular basis...
I think one of my favorites is one that we call: "skin-na".  Basically, grabbing skin expeciallly on the neck, and either pulling and/or twisting.

Our chinna comes directly from our push hands and chi sao training.

Marty


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## CloudChaser (Feb 5, 2004)

i learned a few chin nas from a previous school as well as pressure point techniques... unfortunately, i can't remember much...  is breaking a hold part of chin na too?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 5, 2004)

yes, hold breaks are a part of chin na, especially turning that hold into one of your own.

7sm


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## Tony (Feb 6, 2004)

We have done some Chin na and we are told that its all in our forms! One technique we have done is where you block a punch and push the opponents elbow upward or inward and thus knocking them off balance! I also have books on Chin na By Yang jwing ming, very interesting but theres only so much you can learn from a book! But Chin na is fascinating and I would love to learn more about it!


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## KyleShort (Feb 16, 2004)

My favorite technique is probably the "heaven looking"...similar to a standing guillotine applied from a side position.  It can be applied in a very gross motor kind of a way.  My personal touch is to throw a sweeping elbow after parrying and side stepping an attack.  You can then use the elbow to pry up the oponents chin and pull their head back into a guillotine like position while controlling their body with an arm bar on the attacking arm.

I used it once when a guy tackled me in a friendly soccer game...I guess he wasn't too friendly =)  I didn't really modify anything even though I was on the ground at the time.  The conflict was over fast.  With the chin na applied he said, "What the hell are you doing to me." I squeezed a bit, he struggled for breath and I let him go.  Next thing I know, he said "Jeezus that was crazy." and we were all playing soccer again!


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## RHD (Feb 17, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Who regularly practices Chin Na in their training?
> If you do, do you have a favorite China Na technique or move?
> I really like wrist locks, especially those that lead to strikes.
> 
> ...



Chin Na is integral to my training.  Every move has Chin Na applications or involves Chin Na in some form as a part of the technique.  I like a tehcnique we call "Roll and Press".  It works well both on arms and legs.
Mike


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## Bod (May 11, 2004)

My favourite is a fan change (pass from front hand and catch with my rear hand) on the lead arm of an opponent's open stance opening out into an elbow strike to the head with the lead arm while the body does a straight arm bar with the rear hand, all while doing a crossover step to the outside. Turn the body and a forward trip completes. If the opponent resists by bending the arm you follow with a T-shaped lock (figure 4 chicken wing) to the same arm, moving in the other direction while sweeping in an O-soto gari like fashion (sorry for the JMA expression in a CMA forum).

I figured this out all by myself from the components, but I then saw an almost identical flow in a Bagua video I bought last week.

The beauty of the move is that you cannot reliably catch a hand, but brushing and catching is quite possible. Ask any catch wrestler. If you miss the elbow strike still lands and your hands are high.

When an opponent is extending a lead arm you must be wary of the rear arm which can wallop you pretty hard. Moving to the outside takes you away from the rear hand's power.

The trip falls into place, your feet are just there.

I managed to teach the follow on to a chap with only weeks of locking experience. It is a very simple technique to flow into, with an elbow to the face to keep it moving.

It actually looks vaguelly chinese.


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## tumpaiguy (May 11, 2004)

Those are very common moves in Kajukenbo Tum Pai.  It is very hard to catch a punch in mid air.  It is much simpler to brush block then grab.  Brush blocks allow you to feel the attack without triggering a response from the attacker.


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## DavidCC (May 11, 2004)

We use lots of joint lock techniques in our style.  I have 2 books on Chin Na and I look for similarities in the techniques documented in those books to the techniques we practice in class, then try to graft them.  I can't always make it work, but when it does it is sweeeeeet.  It's what we call "putting a little extra love into it" LOL.


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## WLMantisKid (May 11, 2004)

My favorite is one where the opponent punches, we slap it with the opposite hand (if they punch with left we block with right) bring the other hand under and around and grab the wrist and elbow, pull their arm in and push our elbow over theres, essentially pushing all of our weight onto their locked out elbow and pulling them down. When done fast enough - can snap their elbow.


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## tumpaiguy (May 11, 2004)

Tai Chi is a big part of our art.  All of the moves I see described here are moves we use quite often in training.  Chin Na is all about being sensitive to your opponents every move and always keeping in contact with him.  I love the "rolling elbows."  If you really want to make it fun throw in the groin as target and kicks also.


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 11, 2004)

It is integrated into techniques and what I do love about it is the simplicity of it!!!! One technique is called breaking twigs, and its used when a person either throws a straight or wide punch and you sort of pop the arm with both hands creating a sandwhich effect which breaks there arm before they finish their stride. Very neat!!


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 11, 2004)

One of my favorite chin-na applications from Taijiquan is "small bind" (shao tran), an application of Needle at Sea Bottom.


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## SPQR (Sep 12, 2004)

I never practised any of CMAs.  However, I've looked at a couple of Chin Na books and loved it.  I plan on trying it to supplement my hapkido practice.  Do you think it's a good idea?

Any suggestions are welcome.  Thank you.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 12, 2004)

Hapkido would fit very well with chin na in fact many believe that hapkido came from a system of chin na. The principles will work very well together.

7sm


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## SPQR (Sep 13, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Hapkido would fit very well with chin na in fact many believe that hapkido came from a system of chin na. The principles will work very well together.
> 
> 7sm


Really?  I thought it came from the Japanese Daito-Ryu.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 14, 2004)

Yeah, like I said....many believe. There is a difference of opinion there I believe. We are also talking further back than that though. I'm not really that knowledgable about it, I spoke with a Hapkido instructor for quite a while about it, but I'm not versed in it.

7sm


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## nlmantis (Sep 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> ...The opponant grabs your wrist, you rotate at the elbow basically bringing the palm of your hand up and facing you. You then use your other hand to reach around in front of your raise arm adn grab their hand. Your fingers should really be placed at their knuckles. Basically then you "Peel the Orange" peeling their fingers off your wrist and continuing the circle to effectivly perform a wrist lock.
> 
> It can be used off of a punch as well.
> 
> 7sm


I don't quite follow this one and couldn't find a reference to "peeling the orange" in Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Shaolin Chin-Na so a couple of questions on this one:

- Is this off a same-side wrist grab, or cross-hand?
- How do you secure the opponent's grab before rotating your hand, since why would opponent keep grab in place if his attack is being parried.
- With a punch, since the fingers are closed, are you still peeling fingers somehow? Or is it the wrist lock that you can apply to the punch?


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## 7starmantis (Sep 26, 2004)

nlmantis said:
			
		

> I don't quite follow this one and couldn't find a reference to "peeling the orange" in Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Shaolin Chin-Na so a couple of questions on this one:


Sorry, I must have missed this post somehow. Yeah, I didn't do a very good job of explaning myself. Lets see...



			
				nlmantis said:
			
		

> - Is this off a same-side wrist grab, or cross-hand?


It actually can work from either side. Which side its from determines whether your on the inside or outside gate when apllying the technique.



			
				nlmantis said:
			
		

> - How do you secure the opponent's grab before rotating your hand, since why would opponent keep grab in place if his attack is being parried.


Well, you can secure the opponents hand, but it should be done with such timing that you really dont have to secure the hand. If they release the grab then you move on to something else. The only problem I have with securing the opponents hand with your other hand is that you got two hands tied up with their one hand, that _could_ be a bad situation. If someone grabs your wrist, they are going to be grasping pretty tight, and more than likely going to be putting some force behind the grab. You have to have enough feel to move with thier force and make the circle smaller to perform the technique without securing their hand. Of course the defense is a very simple, let go.



			
				nlmantis said:
			
		

> - With a punch, since the fingers are closed, are you still peeling fingers somehow? Or is it the wrist lock that you can apply to the punch?


Your correct, with a punch it is a little different, your more or less using the thumb of thier punch as your lever and applying the wrist lock from there, but you have to yield and follow their energy into a circle if you want to be successful against a punch. It takes perfect timing.

Does that help at all? The "Peel the Orange" may be a KFE thing, but your basically using your wrist movement after an underhand grab on thier fingers to apply the chin na. Its very much about your wrists in this technique.

7sm


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## nlmantis (Sep 27, 2004)

Thanks for the clarifications, 7star.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 30, 2004)

What do you guys think of applying chin na during a real "combat" situation? Do you think its possible, probable, or even effective? Is chin na more useful from a grabbing-controll type situation; or can it be used in pure "street self defense" just as effectively?

7sm


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## clfsean (Oct 1, 2004)

Yeah it can be applied in real combat no doubt, but the trick is you gotta make the opponent not worry about the lock you're trying to put on him. Soften them up, change the focus of the attention in a myriad of ways... like a knee kick, a right cross, a open handed slap to the face is my personal favorite from my days in the Bujinkan... then you should be able to apply the lock with some success. 

To think we can do a "Segal" & just grab somebody & make it go isn't a reality grounded mindset. IMHO...


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## pete (Oct 1, 2004)

my understanding is that chin na is not a street self defense on its own, but very effective as an addition to your primary style.  dr yang, jwing-ming teaches that chin na alone is very difficult to use against striking arts, and that its better to use it after the strike has been blocked, parried, and intercepted.  then chin na can be used to control and set up the attack.

sean is correct about getting soft...it gives them less to hold on to.  

master ting teaches that you must also use your whole body to control the attackers whole body. 

using your arms is not enough, you must use your whole body... that allows you to move with softness and gives that element of surprise sean is talking about.  

also, controling their joint is not enough, even controling several joints (wrist, elbow, shoulder) is not enough... you must control their whole body down through the spine and control their center... then you can move him.

i'll get there someday!

pete


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## Brother John (Oct 1, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> using your arms is not enough, you must use your whole body... pete



Sounds logical...because it's just like it is with a striking art. We fight with our whole body, not just the limbs.
 :asian: 
Your Brother
John


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## pete (Oct 1, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> ...because it's just like it is with a striking art


 similar, yet different... in striking art we do use our whole body to generate power, however that power is then laser focused onto (or maybe through) the point of contact.  

with chin na, you do not want to focus your efforts on, say, the wrist thats  being locked... rather you want to control the elbow through the wrist, then up through the shoulder, down the spine, through each vertebrae, and ultimately controling his center.

pete


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## Brother John (Oct 1, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> similar, yet different... in striking art we do use our whole body to generate power, however that power is then laser focused onto (or maybe through) the point of contact.
> 
> with chin na, you do not want to focus your efforts on, say, the wrist thats  being locked... rather you want to control the elbow through the wrist, then up through the shoulder, down the spine, through each vertebrae, and ultimately controling his center.
> 
> pete



Very true Pete, and I like how you put things.

But I think that if you look at it even further, the similarities may strike you. (PUN intended)
For instance, in striking I may focus my energy through a target....but often it is in order to set up the body for further strikes, by doing this I manage their dimensions (Height-Width-Depth). SO I may strike their limb a certain way (as in "Alternating Maces' " first block...block/strike same diff right?...this motion "Hits" his arms but controls his body to open him up for the striking.).
To me the control that is saught in Chin-Na and related techniques is MOST similar to the Kenpo Principle of "Contact Manipulation". Like with the block I mentioned... it's contact alters the formation of the rest of his body in order to open further doors of opportunity. Also: I often tell my students that when we strike the torso... strike toward the spine, as it is the A#1 vertical support of the upperbody. Force projection and contact manipulation require that you use your whole body to manage/control/manipulate their whole body.

That's kinda what I meant by their similarities.

Your Brother
John


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## pete (Oct 1, 2004)

good point bro! so maybe the difference is in the time element associated with the control from a strike vs from a lock?

how's this for deja vu all over again...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218917&postcount=9

pete


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## Brother John (Oct 1, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> good point bro! so maybe the difference is in the time element associated with the control from a strike vs from a lock?
> 
> how's this for deja vu all over again...
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218917&postcount=9
> ...



Great minds think alike my Brother!
 :asian: 

agreed, the time element is the difference, generally speaking.

Your Brother
John


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## 7starmantis (Oct 1, 2004)

Very good points, however not all chin na is used to control the opponent, there are chin na techniques for control, just like there are chin na techniques to attack.

7sm


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## Brother John (Oct 1, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Very good points, however not all chin na is used to control the opponent, there are chin na techniques for control, just like there are chin na techniques to attack.
> 
> 7sm


I see.
But in this 'attack' isn't the desired end result to 'control' the adversary? Doesn't the name "Chin-Na" basically translate to "seize and control"? At least, that's what I thought it meant.

Your Brother
John


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## 7starmantis (Oct 1, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I see.
> But in this 'attack' isn't the desired end result to 'control' the adversary? Doesn't the name "Chin-Na" basically translate to "seize and control"? At least, that's what I thought it meant.
> 
> Your Brother
> John



Thats true, it does basically translate to "sieze" and "control". That is probably the main focus at least of the less advanced techniques. Most true practitioners of chin na will agree with Yang Jwing-Ming that there are four basic categories. While most rely on grabbing, locking, or twisting, there are strikes involved in chin na which are usually aimed to cause paralysis or death. In the highly advanced techniques there are those techniques who purpose is to maim or kill. 
I guess there is a seperation, there are those techniques whose end result is control, while there are those techniques whose end result is death, or serious injury. The chin na that focus on "sealing" the breath or blood flow are not seeking control unless you define control as control of the attacker which would include death.

That make any sense? Upon re-reading it, I believe I sounded a little like Yogi Berra.

7sm


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## Brother John (Oct 1, 2004)

perfect sense, Yogi.

Thank you

Your Brother
John


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 7, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> My favorite is one where the opponent punches, we slap it with the opposite hand (if they punch with left we block with right) bring the other hand under and around and grab the wrist and elbow, pull their arm in and push our elbow over theres, essentially pushing all of our weight onto their locked out elbow and pulling them down. When done fast enough - can snap their elbow.


Love that ! There's a similar tech I learnt from a southern shoalin shifu in China recently that begins the same, but instead of grabbing the wrist with the other, you brush block with your opposite forearm first about midforearm of opponent grab a little higher on same arm, use their inertia to turn the strike and their body toward them and to your outside and follow through with your rear fist to open up a solid and clear strike to pratically anywhere you want to land it from their head to torso etc .......  and some standing leg holds/ takedowns give it another new dimension to play with again!  ( btw, the officially plant site was a half fist rap to temple, but do not try this at home with fullcontact!! For a variation, step into it and go for an outer or rear shoulder strike)

While we're here and on chin na, did a little training in sthn china with chin na cop-babes a couple of  weeks back  and was really surprised that for all my lack of training at the time, their speed was fairly unimpressive. Do you guys do speed training???....and what do you do???

BL


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## pete (Nov 17, 2004)

Has anybody gone through the 6 levels of Chin Na training with Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming?  

I've taken Level-1 in May '04, a mini workshop on Taiji Chin Na over the summer, and just completed Level-2 last weekend.  Looking forward to Level-3 next April.  I'm also lucky enough to train with a study group in NYC between the weekend seminars.

I've done some chin na as tai chi applications with Master William Ting, and explored joint locks as its found in Kenpo techniques, but Dr Yang's stuff really CRANKS!  Much different level of PAIN involved with the CONTROL... Pass the Dit Dat Jow!!!

pete.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 17, 2004)

My school incorporates alot of chin na in our normal curriculm so I've never really actively looked for other chin na training, but I do have his book. Its really well written and very good.

7sm


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## pete (Nov 17, 2004)

his books and videos are excellent, but you do have to feel it to believe.  it such a subtle skill, and real hard to get good at...


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 17, 2004)

No.  And I've only ever heard his name mentioned in regard to qigong, but the guy definately has an extremely solid reputation in both the martial and medical communities.

Here's a link to a google on his name as above but in chinese jwing is written in pinyin as jun , and G's in the ing aren't always pronounced, so you might want to try varying your spelling and see what different links  you pull up.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=r.Yang+Jwing-+Ming&btnG=Search&meta=


So back to speed...... do you train for that and how ??


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## pete (Nov 17, 2004)

here is dr yang's website:  http://www.ymaa.com  he has a schedule of classes offered worldwide through 2007, including chin na.

speed is not a consideration in my training, yet... first coupla of levels you practice setting the locks with a cooperative partner, learning how the locks work, and how to apply them defensively from various grabs, pushes, and punches... and offensive applications too.  the main principle is to use your whole body to lock your opponents body down through the spine. 

we just started grafting one lock into the next, where the first lock must be maintained until the second lock is set...  and doing takedowns, where a lock will disipate when the opponent loses contact with the ground, and either a new lock must be set or striking for the kill. 

future levels go further into the applications and grafting, but also involve more ground work and leg chin na (level-5) and anti-chin na at level-6.  

speed develops as you become more proficient with the locks and develop sensitivity to feel the lock you are applying on your opponent, but it does not seem to be a skill where you would train specifically for speed.  Ability to control seems to be of a higher priority, and once in control speed becomes less important.

i'd be interested in hearing from someone who has completed all 6 levels.

pete


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## Operator06 (Nov 17, 2004)

Anyone heard of this guy?



> SIJO BOB SMITH​
> ​
> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Kung Fu
> 10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chuan Fa "Chinese Kenpo"
> ...


IF so can anyone give any insight to his validity? It says in his bio he is a 10th in Chin Na as well.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 18, 2004)

Since you created a thread specifically for this guy, lets leave discussion of him to that thread. 

7sm


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 19, 2004)

just had a review of secuirty / law enforcement use of pressure points ( particulary in locks and submission alah chin na stylings), and do ppl realise that our points are usually over clusters of effector motor nerves????  The answer will likely be yes for the most part, but kind of de-esoterises it no??


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## pete (Nov 19, 2004)

no


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 19, 2004)

lol............



you mean "no" it doesn't de-eosetorise it or "no" you hadn't heard that ?????????


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