# Why don't women compete with men?



## Carbon (May 2, 2002)

I am wondering what everyone's views is on why women don't compete with men?

Is it because at a higher level the skill of a man and the strength required to compete at that level is to much for a women to obtain?

Or, is it because they want to try and keep things fair for a women since it would be overwhelming mentally and physically to fight a man.

I am not sure why they don't make sports coed, even though women I have seen, not everyone woman in the wordly just acouple I've talked to would compare themselves to that of a man.


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## karatekid1975 (May 2, 2002)

In class, everyone spars everyone, no matter the size or gender. But, yes, I see that in tournies. The women are seperated from the men. I don't know why, though. Some of my school's best fighters are women. I know they can whoop on any guy, but they are not allowed


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## tshadowchaser (May 2, 2002)

I've known a few women who not only competed against men but did verry well.   WHY NOT  They have the skills and if they spar in class against men why not in competition if the weights are simular.
Sheldon


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## shihantae (May 2, 2002)

Higher level of skill has nothing to do with it.   what it has to do with especially in forms, is that the judges will not fairly judge the women.

There are women out there who has just a high of a skill leve, and some whose skills are better.    

It is just the way the tournaments are set up, and if you go to enough you will notice that after a certian age, in weapons and forms, men and women compete against each other.   As far as the fighting goes...there are quite a few women in full contact you have trained with, and have beaten the men.  Maria Dacascos is one.

I think it has to do with that fact they are afraid if the women compete against the men(like they would do in some tournaments years ago), that the women will quite coiming.   


Peace,
Tae


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## Bob Hubbard (May 2, 2002)

Carbon,  Get ahold of a copy of "The Journey".  Theres a story in there about a lady who competed quite well.  I don't recall her name off hand, but it was very interesting read.

I don't think I know too many folks who would have stuck it out like she did, especially when she described her early pre-Parker training.   The stick to the gut bit woulda put me right off, ya know?


1 of our local Kenpo-nauts should be able to ID this person.

On MvF, I think the avg female is no match for the avg male.  However, when you add in the martial training + conditioning + experience, then it changes thing.  Everything equal, no contest, but when are things equal?  I spared a gal once who ran me all over the place.  Couldn't touch her.  She on the other hand, had no trouble taking me apart.  So, it depends.

:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 3, 2002)

I would love to meet and train with these women that are as tough as you describe....I don't know any personally.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

I find it a little akward fighting women.  The problem is if I kick them in the chest, I'm afraid of causing some hidden damage to the breasts.  It's also a little funny to accidently "groin" one of them too, Oopps  

I've had my clock cleaned by a few that I didn't fight hard enough so I think you have to give them respect and fight them like you would a guy.  It just feels wierd sometimes.  

:asian:


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## Seig (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *I would love to meet and train with these women that are as tough as you describe....I don't know any personally.
> 
> ...


I'm married to one


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## Carbon (May 3, 2002)

LOL!

I haven't sparred (at all  ) but I agree that sparring a girl can make you feel ackward since guys have been raised to see that.

A girls chest, butt, and special place are an extreme no no to touch unless the girl wants you to lol.

So in sparring when you punch at a girl and hit her in the tit it makes you be like OOO sorry I didn't mean to, and at this point she might not think twice about it and hit you in the face, side or anywhere else she pleases.


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## girlychuks (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *LOL!
> 
> ...



No, the BREASTS (cows have tits) and GROIN (my "special place" is my hayloft where I read) are fair game in all sparring. if I get hit, I learn to block.  The guys I spar don;t think twice about either.  Nor should they. A rapist sure as hell ain;t gonna care.
If a lady can;t handle it, she should get one of those hideous Madonna cone-bood chest protectors.  

Now on to the subject of male vs female in competition- women are more likely to get hurt. Period. I weight train , I spar men as well as women, and I have to say that yes, on the whole, men are stronger thean women. 
I know I have posted before on my frustration that I can get taken down by a guy twenty pounds lighter. It is something I wish some of the other women here would comment on-  


Plus it is the pure logistics of it. Women do not spar in weight classes like men- most men run from 145 to 230 pounds. They tend to have a greater range of size. Women on the other hand, run from 95-150. You are unlikely to find heavier women in MA, because they tend to be in shape.  And the simple  fact that we just don't grow as big.  It;s the same reason we have age divisions.

Personally, I like sparring both sexes. THe most variety the better. But tournaments are chock full of politics already- I can;t imagine some of the criseses that wpuld arise in male vs. female competition.

ll the best always, Cathy:asian:


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## girlychuks (May 3, 2002)

Sparring is nothing- it's randori that gets interesting. I have had my sensei come up when me and my buddy are going at it and ask if we are grappling, or practicing the Kama Sutra.


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## fist of fury (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by girlychuks _
> 
> *Sparring is nothing- it's randori that gets interesting. I have had my sensei come up when me and my buddy are going at it and ask if we are grappling, or practicing the Kama Sutra. *



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Cthulhu (May 3, 2002)

Everytime I've sparred a woman, I adjusted my intensity level to her rank, not her gender.  If she was my equivalent rank or higher, then it's war   However, when sparring lower-ranked women (and men), I tend to tone it down a bit so as not to completely overwhelm them.

To me, to do otherwise would be unfair to both the students and myself.

Cthulhu


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by girlychuks _
> 
> *Sparring is nothing- it's randori that gets interesting. I have had my sensei come up when me and my buddy are going at it and ask if we are grappling, or practicing the Kama Sutra. *



Been there once or twice too, good thing my wife isn't around when I'm working out or teaching  


:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Carbon,  Get ahold of a copy of "The Journey".  Theres a story in there about a lady who competed quite well.  I don't recall her name off hand, but it was very interesting read.*



It was probably Doreen Cogliandro, who is a great Martial Artist or Diane Tanaka, also good in her own right.


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## tonbo (May 3, 2002)

Okay, my unsolicited 2 cents' worth:

I *used* to have a problem with "hitting girls", way back when I started in the MA.  I had always been raised by my parents that a gentleman doesn't do that.....if I was gonna spar 'em, I would hold back and do the "tap, tap" routine.

Then, I started sparring.  When that began, one of the first "girls" I sparred was a cute blonde (who was also the daughter of one of the 3rd Dans) who was a rank or two above me.  She smiled at me with the cutest smile you ever saw, and when the hand fell to start us going at it, she snap kicked me right to the groin.  From there, she didn't let up, and I got my a$$ handed to me quickly.  I got the message:  I was expected to hold back nothing more from her than I would any guy.

Our school has always acknowledged a difference between men and women.  NO problem there.  However, when it comes to sparring, I haven't held back in years.  If I do, I get creamed, cuz the ladies aren't holding back, either.  They get ticked off and spar you *harder* if you hold back.

Sure, there are physical limitations.  That's physiology.  However, the differences turn into interesting advantages on both sides. That's *psychology*.

Let's be honest: if you are training (or claiming to train) for the "real world", then you need to step out of the middle ages.  In this world, women are just as openly deadly, aggressive, and capable as men, and they should be treated with the same amount of respect--and that means, let 'em spar at the same level, in my book.

As far as I am concerned, it's "no quarter, asked or given"; I will hold back for *either* sex, regardless of race, age, height, etc. if asked--if someone is working on a particular combo or technique, for example.  Otherwise, I expect to give and get from an equal, whether they are male or female.

Rant mode off, rant mode way off.  

Peace--


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## Despairbear (May 4, 2002)

I was not even aware that males and females where seperated and I am some what appaled that any one would draw that line. I have always trained with and aginst females in all aspects of my life matrial, sport, or professional. I would just assume seperate people based on race or income as sex. It is all just as ignorant.




Despair Bear


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## Damian Mavis (May 4, 2002)

No not seperating....but haven't you noticed how most males instinctively go easy on women in the martial arts?  Take a good look next time a man in your class trains with a female and see if he isn't falling into this routine.  I hate it...... I tell the women I teach that if they think the man is going easy on them that he is insulting them and disrespecting them and to go all out on him.  Don't let the men coddle you...it's an insult.  

Or how about the martial art schools that let women do push ups on thier knees!  Talk about disrespecting a womans capabilities!  Today my girlfriend went for her black belt test, and when it came time for the pushups (she was the only woman) the old fashioned head tester said she could do them on her knees... I was on the testing board too and I shouted "not this woman!"  Then he joked that it must suck to be my girlfriend.  Women shouldn't be treated any different than men...it's disrespectful to the women.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## karatekid1975 (May 4, 2002)

I'm a woman in full contact TKD. I'm not affraid of the "bully men". And I don't expect them to go easy on me, and they don't. I couldn't think of it in another way. I rather have it like this. As far as push-ups go, we are not allowed to do "girly" push-ups. Even someone like me with carpel tunnel. If I can do it, anyone can.


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## Damian Mavis (May 4, 2002)

Thats great.  Unfortunately it's not always the case but I'm really glad your in a school with that attitude.  All my instructors have always been sexist and basically acted like women couldn't do anything even close to a man and the women accepted it!!  I will never be like that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## kenpokid (May 5, 2002)

I think it is fair for the ladies to be seprate from the men but i think that there should be an aopportunity to compete against them. I think that maybe say the ladies that come first second and third should spar against the mens that come first second and third. that would be could to see.


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## KenpoTess (May 5, 2002)

In our Kenpo Dojo, men spar with women without any reserve.  We wear the same as the guys, head, hand & foot gear.  The rules are no face contact, no contact below the belt, back and fight according to belt level. Let me tell you ..size doesn't matter, it's personality and skill.  We have a 5', 90 pound 2nd grade school teacher (green belt) who'll come after any of the upper belts, towering over her by a foot or more and outweighing her by close to 200 #'s! She will go after them without fear. Clock her on the headgear and 'it's on'~!! *G* 
I, myself have no issues with fighting most  men.  I'm married to our Sensei so get good hands on experience.. hahaa.. 

When we have visitors that want to participate in sparring I like to watch their technique before jumping in.  We had a Shorin-Ryu BB visit and he was absolutely a delight. He sparred everyone,male and female from white belt up, on their belt level   Last week we had a Tang Soo Do who's now taking Kenpo downstate, visit.. he lacked control and I didn't feel comfortable fighting him after watching him rock a couple of the mens' heads. Once he got to Sensei,  he was taught a lesson.  (I believe it's a trust issue when fighting in a controlled setting- we know each other at our school, and trust them. Any new person is the 'fear of the unknown factor') though I wouldn't hesitate if in reality attacked by a man. 

  In our school, you don your gi and genders cease to exist    
We also teach Samurai Jiu-jitsu and we all grapple each other.  Females tend to get more aggressive when sparring or grappling males from what I have seen. 
Of course the lower belts always get fiestier when up against the upper belts no matter what gender ~!


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## karatekid1975 (May 5, 2002)

Hey Tess. Long time no chat   I can just see you and hubby dukin it out (playfully that is) hehehehe.

Anyway, I do get a little aggressive when it comes to fighting men. But I do that because some are "chicken" (the ones that are affraid to hit me). If I get fired up, they might start fighting me like a man lol. Some are good fighters no matter who they fight. But sometimes they get suprised when me and a few other females in my class actually fight back (not back up away from them hehehehe).


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## KenpoTess (May 5, 2002)

Hi Laurie~!! *G* How's the hammy?  Better I hope~!  Oh yeah Hubby and I have a good time.. course I'm usually the instigator. while in the kitchen I always find it a good time to practice my round kicks on him as he walks by.. ~!  Always in Fun though  Kinda like the grappling with him too~ *smirks.. of course he always gets me in some kinda lock that is beyond me to get out of~! 

There's a few guys and girls  in each of our College classes every semester that are kinda over powering no matter how many times we have discussed control with.. they either don't listen or have not a clue how to stop themselves.  They always get to spar Sensei and that usually drops them down a few pegs.  I tend to match whomever I'm fighting with their own power ( this is always later in the term after they have sparred a few times and know better)  If they come at me full power, I give it right back.. and they never like the effect~!! I'm 5'6" and 160 pounds of muscle.. and fast hands.. if they don't block.. oh well~!!!  male or female.. 
You go girlfriend~!! Aggression is good~!! 
 We went to a students TKD BB test yesterday (he's also taking Kenpo at our school)  I was disappointed to see what I did as far as the testing.. (He got his BB (.. but that's another topic for another thread ~! I'm sure Seig will be starting that thread 

Wouldn't it be fun for all of us to meet somewhere someday )

Have a great Sunday!
Tess


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## shihantae (May 5, 2002)

Hi Damian,
LOL, I don't know where you have taken classes, but the first ten years I was in the arts, I trained with nothing but men.  They sure didn't take it easy on me(thank god).  :rofl: 

The men in my classes do not take it easy on the women wither.  They know better.  They are all trained the same way and just as hard.   

Peace,
Tae


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## Damian Mavis (May 5, 2002)

Sounds great!  Especially since that was at a time when sexism was more rampant too!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Bob Hubbard (May 5, 2002)

I'll add this tidbit:  Got to watch a gal go 1-on-1 with our NA champ (Primo L) at the WMAA camp this weekend.  She gave as good as she got.  

I didn't catch her name, but she handled herself quite well.  (Did better than I did against him, by a long shot)

So, in the question can they compete, I say yes.  As long as they don't get offended when certain parts get abused.  The only 'softening' he did was when they hooked up, it seemed he took her down a bit softer than he does with the guys, but once on the ground, they both went all out.

All I can say is, ladies, if ya grapple, understand, things get grabbed, abused, and sometimes exposed.  T-backs are not a good idea, and I'd recomend a sports bra.  (keep in mind, theres grappling grabs, and theres copping a feel...if its the later, you don't want to train there.)

and Guys, please pause every so often to pull up your shorts...theres too much 'crack' in the workd as it is.  

(Nap time...camp was too much fun.)


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## Seig (May 6, 2002)

I completely agree, Crack Kills.


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## kenpokid (May 6, 2002)

Women can give just as much as men when sparring in some cases they can whip the mens and vice versa but aint that the same whether you fight men or women.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 6, 2002)

right.  Difference noted.  

In a fight, things are different.  But in a controled situation, they can come out on top.

:asian:


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## shihantae (May 6, 2002)

Kaith,
Don't count women out in the street either.   

The only time I have ever had to really use my skills to defend my life(although it wasn't the first time in the street), I was the one who walked away.  And since I am talking to you, I am the one still breathing.

It is not how big you are...it is what you know, and the will to survie, can turn anyone into a killing machine.  

Anyway, have a good day.

Peace.  

:asian: 

Tae


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## karatekid1975 (May 6, 2002)

Tess,

LOL. You two sound like me and my honey hehehehe. Most of are practice happens in the kitchen when I get an "itch" to kick. And he is usually the one to get "in the way" hehehehe. And the kick is usually a roundhouse to the butt hehehehe

As far as what Kaith said (things getting grapped, kicked, poked), well that's what the gear is for. Most of the time I get kicked in the chest, but I know it's not intentional (I mean as a rude gesture). That's one of our "scoring" areas, so I don't mind it. Now if a guy IS being rude, I go after him. I won't kick him in the nuts, but he'll feel it when I do kick (my way of saying "back-off buddy) *evil grin* But that hasn't happened.


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## karatekid1975 (May 6, 2002)

I agree with Shihan. I also had to use what I know in the street. Like she said, I'm talking to you now


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## Shotochem (May 6, 2002)

Hi all, I am starting to get over having to spar with women.  I used to take it easy until I was taught a lesson from one of our female BB.  She was all over me, it seemed like she had more than 2 arms and legs.  I have changed my ways since then, I will spar to the ability of my opponent male or female.

On another note... Ive discovered the most dangerous of all to spar is a WHITE BELT!!!  They have NO control


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## Bob Hubbard (May 6, 2002)

shihan tae , I'm not discounting them, just noting the situations are different.  Very rarely do you see a 120lb guy bullying a 300lb gal.   (Now, Danny Divito [actor], he's different) 

I think that with proper training, and conditioning, a gal could not only hold her own, but even dominate.  When they run into problems is in size/weight differences.

MY GF went toe to to with a 6+ foot, 275+ guy this weekend.  (she's 5', 120lb).  She held her own until they went to the ground.  Then, it was all weight working against her.  (He's heavy, I know, he sat on me a bit too. )

I think properly prepared, things are a lot more even then most folks think.  The average neanderthol though will destroy the avg female.  Guy has mass/height on his side.

I'll be honest, I would hope that anyone who reaches blackbelt in an art could defend themself.  Truth is, too many belt-factories and watered down arts give a false sence of security.  I know 1 kenpo BB (2nd) who hasn't spared in 2 yrs, and who is walked through each test.  But, she thinks she knows how to defend herself.  Knowledge without experience = pain later in life.  IMHO.

Gals, Train hard, and seriously, and you should do fine. (and I'm not just saying that cuz I wanna sell ya all MT tee shirts.) 

Peace.
:asian:


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## Blindside (May 6, 2002)

Don't forget that the white belt doesn't know that something is supposed to be impossible, and manages to do it anyway.

Also, their rhythm is naturally broken, because they haven't been trained long enough to establish a rhythm.

Sometimes I wish I would fight like a white belt again. 

Lamont


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## Andi (May 22, 2002)

So I understand that it's patronising for guys to go easier on the gals. 

I'm a yellow belt so not been training too long and I'm still finding it a bit weird to punch the lasses. And when I'm sparring them and catch myself going easy on em, I feel a bit guilty about it.  Now this isn't always the case. 

Whenever the girl comes at me and is aggresive, it's not really a problem for me. I'm too busy sparring to think "Oh hold on thar, this is a girl".

So. Any ideas on how to make them a bit more agressive?

Cheers
Andi


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## Seig (May 22, 2002)

Pop them in the head gear a few times or hit their hand gear hard enough to make them hit themselves.  But, a warning, this will really fire them up.  Be prepared to defend yourself.


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## karatekid1975 (May 22, 2002)

LOL Seig. You're right. I hate being kicked in the head. That's one way to get me fired up. Punching don't bother me. I can take body shots all day, but don't you kick me in da head dammit LOL


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## Klondike93 (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Pop them in the head gear a few times or hit their hand gear hard enough to make them hit themselves.  But, a warning, this will really fire them up.  Be prepared to defend yourself. *



That's one of my favorite things to do. Kick 'em in the head gear is about the last thing I do, don't want to hurt 'em.
So I just kick the hands and sometimes they do hit themselves  


:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *
> . . .
> ...



To all,

Hi, I am 6'3" and I am 275 lbs. And Yes the little pitbull I call Bunny, AKA Kaith's girlfriend,
came at me with everything she had. 

Did I take it easy, Yes I did. Why?????
I did not know here training level or background.
Once she started swinging with both hands (They
both had canes) and she was swinging with intent
and good control, I stepped it up.

Now comes to the next issue, I gave her some shots
that would slow down many a person, but she 
ignored them. Maybe I remind her of her last
boyfriend and she wanted a piece of me. :rofl: 

Yet, once again, the level of contact went up
and when she closed, I showed her the error
of physics. Not that I am a better ground fighter
by no means am I stating that. Did I hurt her on
purpose, NO!. Did I take her to the ground with
intent as I would anyone else at her level yes.

I do owe her a backrub the next time we meet.


Now, to other women I have sparred or fought.
Well, I always start out 'soft'. It does not
matter if they be male or female. All my life
I have heard 'ouch that hurts!, you do not know
your own strength you, (Fill in the blank)'

So, I have learned to control the level of 
contact.

Now, can women fight, HELL YES!. I had to
take a knife away from a young lady one evening
she had her sights set on me since I had stopped
her from beating up someone else earlier in the
evening. Does this mean, I am good, by no means.
It means with some training and luck, I did not
get cut that time.

I do have certain predetermined approach to
females that is different then males. 
Males: Boys / Young Men - Men

If attacked by a boy or a man I have no problems
defending myself. But I have had problems against 
women before in my life.

Females: Ladies, Women, Young Women, Girls, and
'its'.

Ladies, are those Grandmothers everyone loves and
has the class the just comes out no matter what 
they do.

Women, are most of the women I met today. They
can be a lady and they can be self assured person.

Young Women, I separate these young women out
since, when I bounced I saw how they would use
their bodies / sexuality to get either attention
or as defense. These young ladies need extra
care, and education.

Girls - the real young females and those that do
not fit in the above young women.

'Its' - Yes I needed this class to be able to hit
a female. After I got my clocked cleaned more than
once by a women / Young Women, I needed some way
to defend myself, but I could not come to terms
with hitting a woman. It is just not right. But,
once she has crossed that line then she losses
those rights and privileges offered to her, and
she becomes an it. Sorry my terms to address
the issue.

My apologies for being so long winded.

Also, I hope too many of the women do not come 
for me.  

Have a nice day

Rich


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## islandtime (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> [BOr how about the martial art schools that let women do push ups on thier knees!  Talk about disrespecting a womans capabilities!    Women shouldn't be treated any different than men...it's disrespectful to the women.
> 
> ...



.........................................................................................
When I started my daughter in MA I told her she was to do pushups like the guys not the girls. She agreed and now has killer triceps . When I see higher belt ladies doing the knee thing I just think they are shorting themselves on training.

As far as competing men/women... in Kendo and Chanbara there is competition between the sexes and the ladies seem to have some real speed that is a real plus in sword type arts


GEne Gabel:asian:


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## Yari (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *I am wondering what everyone's views is on why women don't compete with men?
> 
> *



Weight classes is a major reason, when we are talking competition. 

For "real life" I think there are reasons, like it's easier to learn the fundamentals when praticeing with someone your own size, and them moving over to diffrent sizes.


/Yari


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## Deaf (May 23, 2002)

Well drawing from my experience when I was in ShotoKan and Tang Soo Do.  We used to go to competitions on a weekly basis.  So for training, everyone sparred everyone regardless of sex.

Did I have a problem with competiting against a woman?  No, but the reality of the situation is that men and women are different "animals".  I see nothing wrong with keeping them seperate for competition reasons since really all competition is a game of tag and lacks any real skill except for "scoring a point".  Now this is not saying that men and women should be seperated because a woman is weaker, I am just stating that women are a different category than men.  It is just like the weight divisions!

Now regarding martial art skills, I have now been training for over 7 years in a pure self protection system and women train with the men on techniques that hurt even when practice using only 10% strength or speed.  Do I go easy on women?  HELL NO!  If they beat on me, I am going to return the favor.  It does not matter whether man or woman, they can both hurt you, maim you or kill you without a hestitation.  So you better be prepared to use your skill against any attacker whether male or female.

L8r

Deaf


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## theneuhauser (May 23, 2002)

hopefully i am not alone here

it is my belief that a man should never lay an aggressive hand towards a woman. if a lady wants to spar with me i will always decline. 

in addition, if a woman attempts to fight me in "real life", i will defend my self without counterattack. let me remind everyone that this is why you spar- for "real life" or sport. neither scenario includes hurting ladies. 

so its a little old fashioned-i can live with that- 
on the other hand i could not live with causing permanent injury to god's only blessing to man.

much love for the ladies:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 23, 2002)

In my opinion thenuhauser, your a freak!  But I mean that jokingly.... I totally disagree with you though and it's becuase the world we live in does not allow for your type of attitude.  We are not doing women a favor by not pushing them when it comes to martial training.  If you do what you say then when they are actually attacked and or raped/murdered they are completely unprepared for it and become vicitims or dead.  I personally know many many rape victims and know it happens way morew than people think.  Your goodwill is only going to get people hurt that would otherwise be able to handle themselves (since they are taking responsibility for thier own safety by joining martial arts only to be fed false confidence by all the men coddling them for 6 years!)  I certainly hope you are alone in your opinion but I admire your chivalry.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## karatekid1975 (May 23, 2002)

I agree with Damian. If I didn't get "pushed" to the edge with my training, I think I would have been hurt bad when I was attacted. Instead the guy had a broken nose and ribs, and I walked away without a scratch. I know, where thenuhauser is coming from, though. Some guys were raised to respect women (the old fashion type). But this day and age doesn't allow that. My guy is old fashioned, but when we are training, we train hard. He treats me like one of the "guys" and "fights" me. He will "resist" me when I do a technique, and I do the same. We take training seriously. But when we are home, he goes back to his old fashioned self


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## Yari (May 24, 2002)

Watch out, women don't need to be taken care of, in both scenes.
Given the chance the'll take care of themselves.


/Yari


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## sweeper (May 24, 2002)

I don't think chivalry realy can apply to life anymore. Not simply for the reason that in the class room women need a challenge comparable to the thret they train for, but also because times have changed. If a woman is comming at me (with a weapon) trying to kill me, I'm not gona stick around..  If they are going after one of my freinds, than I'm gona try to take them out. I wouldn't want someone to get hurt just because I wouldn't hit a woman (who was in the wrong). As far as fighting women goes though, courts genneraly give harsher penalties to men attacking women than women attacking men. So yeah I would be extra carefull to avoid causeing dammage, but if I have no other choice but let someone get seriously hurt or hurt someone (less seriously) and end it, I'll chose the latter option.


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## girlychuks (May 24, 2002)

I just had sparring practice with one of my instructors last night. He whaled on me monkey style and got me down at one point. IHe was clearly trying to take me down a notch and make me learn something (which I did!) I  think a lot of people would have been unhappy, but I enjoyed the whole frolic. 

Thenuhauser, while your chivalry and consideration for the weaker sex is charming, it does us women no favors. Rapists and attackers have no consideration for us, and as such, we need to know the feeling of what taking on a male is like.

It is the objectification of women that leads to rape and sexual assault to begin with. That's why I get upset when I see "Babe of the month" or those slutty female wrestling tapes in "martial arts" magazines.  It sends a mixed message- Here, learn to defend yourself- but make sure that you have big ti**tys. a thong,  and long blonde hair while doing it.  That sends a message to the other 95% of wmoen that they are not "good enough" - and if someone thinks their inperfect bodies are not worth defending, they  will take whatever creep has to dish out. 


Enough of the societal crap- let's get down to the nitty-gritty. Sparring is a way to improve yourself in the martial arts.  The more people you spar, the more you will (hopefully)  learn. Therefore, men and women should spar together, if not for anything else, than to just increase your experience and number of sparring partners.


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## GouRonin (May 24, 2002)

You know, if more people believed like you and actually stood strong in their beliefs like you then maybe we wouldn't have the problems we have today.

Whether or not I agree with you doesn't matter. Congrats to you for standing up for your beliefs. Some will say that the world doesn't allow for your attitude but the fact that you do it despite what others say tells me it does.

If the guy doesn't want to spar women or hit them then the rIst of you should back off and let him alone to his opinion. If women choose to go out and do this then let them I say, but back off this guy for taking a stand on his opinion.

People will jump his case because he won't spar or hit women because they think that they are doing them no favours but they were all for women's only classes because they had issues that men couldn't grasp?

...and they say _I'm_ crazy...


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## Damian Mavis (May 24, 2002)

Well....

Gou, I'm an advocate for women's only classes for women that have been tramautized by men in their past and are completely incapable of training with men.  That is the only time I think womens only classes should apply.  The rest of the female population should be in there with the men kicking the crap outta them and learning how to escape an enraged 250 pound rapist.  But thats just my opinion.

As for the world not allowing his attitude but he seems to be able to do it anyway.... well ya he (like the rest of us) can do whatever he wants in life but he's not helping women with his attitude.  When we state that society doesn't allow for his kind of attitured we mean that that rapist who just brutalised your girlfriend wasn't stopped by someones chivalrous attitude towards women.  That is how society does not allow it.  Society is vicious and brutal and could care less.  So yes he can have his attitude in this society but society would be better off without it since its not paying attention to anyones attitude but its own.

It's easy for us to sit back and  say... if society all had your attitude then we wouldn't need self defence at all!  Ya that would be sweet.  But that has never ever ever been the case in human history.  We have been murdering, raping, torturing and demeaning eachother since the beginning of our bipedal evolution and it seems to be getting worse due to an increase in the worlds population.  More people equals more chances for man to demonstrate its propensity for evil.

I know some people might think I have a jaded view on the world but I guess I'm the only one reading the news and watching it all on TV?  It's all right there!  Just gotta pay attention and not close your eyes everytime you see something unpleasant.

And I live in Canada!  Not exaclty the worst nation in the world for murder and rape.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## sweeper (May 24, 2002)

Well I don't agree on that..  I think in genneral the world is getting better..  I can think of alot less pleasant times to live in than now.

But Gou, thenuhauser put forth his idea/perspective of the issue and people just responded to it..  I don't think anyone's saying he's a bad person for not hitting a woman..  just giveing a responce. I mean if he didn't want a responce he shouldn't have posted his view on a discusion board (I assume he did want a responce). I happen to disagree with his position, I'm not saying he should change his I'm just disagreing.


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## GouRonin (May 25, 2002)

So...we're not doing any ladies any favours by excluding them from classes and sparring, yet we're doing them favours by putting them with other women in a self defence class, teaching them stuff that they won't practice on the type of assailant they will have to face, then sending them out to telling them it's realistic.


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## Damian Mavis (May 25, 2002)

Sheesh Gou you act like there is a choice in the matter.  Its not that I think women that have been brutalised in their past SHOULD only take self defence classes that are women only.  It's that their is no other option....there is no convincing a tramautized woman to take self defence from a man and have him psuedo attack her, there is no convincing her to get over her fear and terror...

Don't know how else to splain it to ya Gou, you keep responding like its our opinion that is keeping these women from training realistically.  I really wish there was a way to change their minds but I'm not a psychologist and lack the skills to help them in any way.                                                                         

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## GouRonin (May 25, 2002)

There *is* choice in everything we do every day. There *are* options. If you don't like it, you live in a society that allows you to go try and create new options and choices. (Thank you free market society!) Yes there are consequences for all of this, and you have to be prepared to accept them. But the moment you say, _"can't"_ you are really choosing not to.

I was once told, _"Nothing is impossible, it just takes a little longer."_

I can't count the number of times I have been told I won't be able to do something because blah blah blah. I can't do that because blah blah bah. I have given up trying to keep track.

What a day on this website. I feel very alone. Very alone. Yeesh...


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## sweeper (May 25, 2002)

I disagree..  there isn't anything you can do to make someone to deside to pursue realistic self deffence when they have basicly been programmed/brainwashed to fear/avoid the situation you want them to go into. now yeah you do have options to get em into the class room, you could do something like put a gun to their head and they probably would go in..  but convincing them to go in on their own is not posibal. that is what Mavis is reffering to a situation where someone absolutly refuses to enter a class room with a man.

I think what he is saying is it's better to take a half-assed aproach to self deffence than no aproach because the half-assed one can lead to real self deffence. he isn't saying both "you should have classes for women with no men present" and "it doesn't help women to not spar with them" he is saying "when a women is so down troden that she won't fight a man even in sparring than she should at least spar a woman" and "if a woman wants to train to deffend herself against a man then she needs to spar men". Those last two statements aren't realy contradictory...

Well I guess that's what I saw in what he wrote..  But than again answering for someone else is always kinda dangerous. and I proly just stuck my foot in my mouth


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## Rich Parsons (May 25, 2002)

There, There Gou, it is ok.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *There is choice in everything we do every day. There are options. If you don't like it, you live in a society that allows you to go try and create new options and choices. (Thank you free market society!) Yes there are consequences for all of this, and you have to be prepared to accept them. But the moment you say, "can't" you are really choosing not to.
> 
> ...



First Do not feel alone.  

Next, you must have worked for the Government
or the military to have the impossible be 'just
a bit longer'  

Personally I agree, if you say you cannot then
that is your choice and then you will not.

Yet, if you say I will keep trying, you might
get there with enough work.  

I once worked with a women who was so afraid of
men that if they talked to her she would file
a compliant with Human Resources. Yes, this
really did occur. Management asked me why she
had not filed against me. When I had to speak
to her, I would approach so she could see me 
coming. If I had to hand her something I would
put it down and then step back so she could 
pick it up herself. Then I would explain anything
else required but I would not look at her.

The Company sent her for counseling, the 
Psychologist was Male, she could not go into his
office. It took a female manager to talk to
her and then to recommend a female counselor.
After some time, she was able to 'function' at
work with others.

So, the female only classes give women a place
to start with out feeling threatened or 
intimidated. Now, for true defense they need
to work against a male. But, for some of those
that need it the most you have to help them
open there eyes, even before you can teach them
to walk.

Enough on this for now.

Gou - Have a beautiful day and do not be alone.

Rich
:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 25, 2002)

I agree with you Gou that nothing is impossible, I'm just stating that I lack the training and tools to make tramautized women see that they can do things they think is impossible when I can't even get a chance to talk to them.  Pretty hard to make a difference in someones life when they won't even show up to listen to me.

Sweeper, men sparring with women is seperate from women taking realistic self defence with male "dummies/attackers".  The problem with men sparring women is that men have a tendancy to coddle women when they spar.  Meaning they aren't even really paying attention cause they couldn't be bothered... I think thats very insulting to women and not helping them get better in martial arts at all.  The womens self defence I was discussing is when a male "dummmie" gears up in full body armor and lets a woman use techniques full contact on him.  This is usually in a setup like... man grabs woman from behind, man tries to choke woman from the front, man pins woman on the ground.  And the woman is encouraged to defend herself as savagely and fiercely as possible.  This kind of training is exactly what abused women need but unfortunately the severely tramautized ones will simply not show up for this kind of training.  Sometimes they won't even show up if its a woman "dummie".  The violence is far to real to them and takes serious counselling to overcome, if ever.

Just wanted to clear up what I was talking about.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## vincefuess (May 26, 2002)

I know several women who can mop the floor with me in point sparring!  They would be no match for me if it was full contact- but I guarantee ya I would get hurt before knocking them out.  I encourage women to wail on me when we spar, it helps them to realise just HOW HARD they are gonna have to hit an assailant to do any damage at all.  I have women who have given me all they have got only to be disappointed that I never even flinched- it's a good reality check for them.

In forms competition I have been beaten by many women (the kenpo forms divisions at most tourneys do not seperate sexes), and deservedly so.

Speaking of being married to it, my wife is a cop who got shot four times in the chest (without a vest) in a convenience store robbery, and her backup had to pull her off the girl who shot her because she was kicking her *** all over the parking lot.  You don't mess with my wife!  I am pretty good at dishes and laundry...


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## Rich Parsons (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *. . .
> 
> Speaking of being married to it, my wife is a cop who got shot four times in the chest (without a vest) in a convenience store robbery, and her backup had to pull her off the girl who shot her because she was kicking her *** all over the parking lot.  You don't mess with my wife!  I am pretty good at dishes and laundry... *



Dear vincefuess,

Does you wife have any single friends like her?
I got one thing to say
You Go Girl.  I assumed she is well now, by the
use of present tense.

Have a nice day.
Rich
:asian:


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## vincefuess (May 26, 2002)

She just whupped my butt this morning!!  (and I liked it  )

I'll ask her about her friends, she knows a few that have trouble getting dates because they are strong and independent and expect to be treated as such.   Apparantly these qualities are drawbacks for gals trying to meet guys, though I have always been attracted to women who were strong and independent, especially when the issue is establishing a partner for life.  There's no room in my life for little bo peep.  :rofl:


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## Rich Parsons (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *She just whupped my butt this morning!!  (and I liked it  )
> 
> I'll ask her about her friends, she knows a few that have trouble getting dates because they are strong and independent and expect to be treated as such.   Apparently these qualities are drawbacks for gals trying to meet guys, though I have always been attracted to women who were strong and independent, especially when the issue is establishing a partner for life.  There's no room in my life for little bo peep.  :rofl: *



  I am glad she is well and kicking your Butt
as you put it.

As for strong women, I like a woman who is fit and
can handle her own. I have a very nice friend,
she is a Minister, in the Navy Reserve as a 
Chaplain and she works out regularly, etc., ... .
One might ask why I am not with her. We both
are good friend and realize not right for the
other one for long term.  

Have fun in life and thanks

Rich


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## theneuhauser (May 26, 2002)

well, it looks like i got back to this a little bit later than i should have but.....

my problems with male/female sparring were not intended to insult any of you. it seems that it may have struck a chord in for those of you that believe that it is a necessary element considering today's violent crimes against women. 
i did not state my position on that in my previous post, so i think i should clarify that...
rape and assault are some of the most heinous human crimes anyone can think of, they leave physical and mental scars and even kill. from first person accounts, i know that victims may have altered their own destiny if better facilitated to protect themselves, women, and men alike.
on that note, those of you that say that women should spar with men for the exposure to physical combat are somewhat correct.

however, this post began with the question "why dont women compete with men?" not, should women know how to defend themselves? of course they should. and when i say that i personally would not spar or compete against a female opponent i offered one example of why people dont. call it unrealistic, or "chivalrous" or whatever you want.

back to assault against women. i am not an authority by any means, however, i do know that boxing is a very small part of what someone has to know in order to minimize the chances of being assaulted, raped, mugged, molested, etc. visit a publicly certified womens self defense class and you probably wont see boxing. you will probably see discussion-about self confidence, environment, safe practices, etc. 
there are also postures one would want to take against assailants with guns and knives of which some self defense can be aqcuired. most of us know that. even in a wrestling situation there are techniques that work well in assisting a victim to escape harm.
that said, i reiterate that boxing is a small part of the equation, and if we apply that question to the current topic of sports and practice sparring, than one should see where the great difference exists.

last, i would like to say again that there are some of us that do not SPAR or COMPETE with women in aggressive training and never will. why not? no reason, just because.
:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (May 26, 2002)

I wouldn't spar against a woman in competition either.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## karatekid1975 (May 26, 2002)

Why not? Spar Vinces wife!


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## Carbon (Jun 3, 2002)

I disagree when you say full contact, because we all know that its not truely "FULL" contact.

I know your thinking, well we can't have "FULL" contact or people would get hurt. Yes this is true, but in a real fight I would question a women's ability to take a hit. 

I mean you've seen women boxers, and it just seems that their skills are lacking when you compare them to men's.

I don't know what it is, its just men are built to be physical, and a women in a real "FULL" contact match would probably go out hurting.

I'm not saying that the women can't do damage, thats not the point but if a guy walked up behind her, and punched her in the side of the face, well... is she going to beable to take the hit and properly defend herself?

This goes for everyone, I know if a 250 lb. grown man walked up behind me and hit me in the face I would be hurting pretty bad and be so disoriented that it would be hard for me to react.

Now you take this and put it with a fragile women, yes not all women are fragile, but the ones rapist target are, so do you think all the training in the world could protect her?


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## girlychuks (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *
> 
> Now you take this and put it with a fragile women, yes not all women are fragile, but the ones rapist target are, so do you think all the training in the world could protect her? *




No. That's where my full support for Paxton Quigley comes in. And my activism for truth in sentencing, as well as public access to sexual offender registries. 



And let's not forget a very important aspect of rape/ molestation- the vast majority of these crimes are committed by someone the victim KNOWS.  In a lot of cases, the simple act of a scream, a slap,  is enough to let the attacker know she means business.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *I disagree when you say full contact, because we all know that its not truely "FULL" contact.
> 
> ...



Carbon,

You have the full right to disagree and state so
here. This is an open forum. Now I would like
to disagree with you a little also.  

Yes, "FULL" contact can be misleading and yes
women in general have a smaller frame then men.
So, I am putting words in your mouth, and feel
free to disagree. Are you saying that women
should just stay out of martial arts and not
train at all since they have no hope of ever 
winning or beating a bigger opponent? Should
they just lock themselves at home and only
come out in the company of some male family
member that can defend them?

I would have to say no to these questions.
Women can train for self-defense at what level
they feel comfortable. Yes the real bad guys
are mean and big. Yet, women who can put up
a 7 second fight stand a much larger chance of
survival. People might notice what is going on
and react to help.

Once again Carbon nothing personal, I just do
not want someone to take your comment, and then
feel like there is nothing they can do and then
feel intimidated and actual make themselves a
more likely target. The animal / attacker will
sense the fear in their body language of the 
victim /prey.

Just my thoughts

Rich


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## sweeper (Jun 3, 2002)

Don't have any stats to back it up but it's my undrstanding that not all, but alot of attacks (in genneral, but deppending on intent...   rape and muggings included) can be prevented/deffended against by basicly scaring the person off. You don't have to train like it's an all out fight to the death and the only way you are gona get out is over that big 250 pound guys un-concious body..  that's worse case senario, like 1 in 50 or 1 in 100. What you have to do is make your attacker think it's not worth it, just not giving in, making alot of noise, and hurting them could be enough, you don't have to go 15 rounds in the ring with mike tyson to deffend against your average attack. Add in ellements of prevention (like situational awareness) and you can reduce the amount of potential attacks and realy get your chances of having to fight to the bitter end down.

that being said if a woman realy wants to deffend her self..  use a weapon. I don't care what the laws are where you live there is always something that can be used as a weapon. a pen or pencil, a knife, a gun..  a hand full of change to huck in the person's face..  whatever, train to take maximum advantage of environment and to use some kind of wepon (what ever is the most leathal available than work down).

Wow...  looks like I managed to make yet another rambaling rant that now looks like gibberish..  oh well


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## Carbon (Jun 4, 2002)

Ok it just deleted my post for a second time. It says I didn't login i'm mad I might repost again tomorrow ;P


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## tunetigress (Jun 4, 2002)

Awwww Carbon, what a bummer!   That happens to me a lot too.  It seems like the longer and more brilliant my posts get, the more likely I am to lose the silly things before I get them posted.  Sometimes I can't remember what my point was in the first place I get so mad at the silly puter.  That's  about when I go downstairs and kick the living crappe out of my bag until I realise that either what I was saying will come back to me if it was worth saying, or if it was a particularly brilliant idea, someone else will come up with it too and post a long reply saving me the trouble.  Then all I gotta say is "like HE said"!!!


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## girlychuks (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *I disagree when you say full contact, because we all know that its not truely "FULL" contact.
> 
> ...



:rofl:  AHEM* Fragile??? You say women that rapists target are *fragile* and say training won;t protect them? What kind of women train and remain *fragile*?  Ever hear  the story of the twelve year old girl judoka who socked it to a child molestor with *one* hand. He whipped it out, she zipped him back up.  He left peices of his member as he ran.

That is training, Carbon. Martial arts involve learning your opponent's vulnerabilities, and capitalizing on them. Rapists are generally cowards, and are surmountable. 


I sit here with a split eyebrow and black eye due to a hell of a ridge hand. I notice you use the term *real fight* in your post- well, the black eye given to me by blue belt and thr black eye given by a jerk, or a bit*h, are one and the same....


We can take a hit Carbon, believe me. 

All the best, Cathy


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 4, 2002)

Although I don't agree with Carbons point of view about this I do think he meant something else when he said "rapists target fragile women".

Rapists often choose thier victims based on the body language and signals they get from the prospective victim.  (notice I said often!  I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule -- this goes the same for muggings and other related assaults)  The signals they are looking for can be summed up in one word FRAGILE.  A rapist is often looking for a target that will be easily cowered into doing exactly what they want.  Why pick a strong looking target that will fight or even yell and scream?  Too much trouble.  By strong I mean strong willed, a woman with her shoulders back and head up and confidence in her eye.  A woman that makes eye contact with a man she finds threatening even if hes on the other side of the street.  The rapist has just gotten the message that the woman knows hes there and isnt afraid to let him know she knows.  In society we often keep our eyes lowered and hope that something scary just goes away.  Worst thing you can do.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this but I'll just call it quits here.  There have been countless studies and interviews based on this subject and that is were I got my information.  (Interviews with rapists in prison who almost all agree that they look for an easy "mark" as an example )

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Although I don't agree with Carbons point of view about this I do think he meant something else when he said "rapists target fragile women".
> 
> ...



Damian,

For the sake of Argument let us assume you are correct in interpreting Carbons' post. It is
no more valid or invalid them mine.  

Your quote of the 'Fragile' Women being targets,
can be used for my argument of the fact that 
everyone women should have some training. This
allows them to gain some confidence and self
worth and build a stronger ego.
NOTE: Many women have all these attributes, this
discussion is about Fragile Women in theory.

If a women can gain some training even in a class
full of women who do not go 'FULL' contact,
does this not allow this 'Fragile' student to
gain confidence and at least keep their eyes
open? Does it not offer them a better chance to
survive by knowing they should run and yell
things like 'Stranger' - to get the attention of
every other parent in the area?

What I got from Carbon, was that even if the women
are Fragile or not they could not survive a full
assault from an 'Ape' like me and therefore should
not even try. Once again Carbon I am sorry if that
is not what you meant.

Just my thoughts and replies. Everyone is entitled
to their own. 
 

Best Regards
Rich
:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 4, 2002)

Uh yeah.  Like I originally posted I don't agree with Carbon on this but girlychucks seemed very insulted thinking that Carbon was saying rapists target women because they are fragile.  I thought he meant rapists target a certain type of woman...ie.  a fragile one.  Nowere in my post did I state anything about women wasting their time with self defence because they are too fragile anyway.  I get mad everytime I meet a woman that doesn't take some sort of self defence training, to me they are walking vicitms just waiting their turn.  (when I say I get mad I mean in my heart, not to the persons face... not my place to lecture strange women on safety).

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Carbon (Jun 6, 2002)

Ok i had an excellent post and it deleted it again. I think its because I was logged in through hotmail.

Well I will sum up the post, i didn't mean women shoudln't take martial arts only that some things are hard to train for, aka a hormone raged rapists who just got out of prison and all he did in there was get in fights and workout.

I am also saying that you only fight people in your dojo, and the average person can take MA thats why its so great, but people you can really knock you out are thugs who wonder the streets.

I know people who can take hits in their eye, nose, jaw and be fine and with no MA training.

MA training isn't suppost to train you to beable to withstand hits to the face in my mind, its suppost to beable to teach you to prevent from being hit in the face.

And the reason you can take a hit in the eye alot easier then say in the temple or jaw is because there aren't that many nerve endings surrouding the bone around your eye.

This is all.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Uh yeah.  Like I originally posted I don't agree with Carbon on this but girlychucks seemed very insulted thinking that Carbon was saying rapists target women because they are fragile.  I thought he meant rapists target a certain type of woman...ie.  a fragile one.  Nowere in my post did I state anything about women wasting their time with self defence because they are too fragile anyway.  I get mad everytime I meet a woman that doesn't take some sort of self defence training, to me they are walking vicitms just waiting their turn.  (when I say I get mad I mean in my heart, not to the persons face... not my place to lecture strange women on safety).
> 
> ...



Damian,

I apologize if I have offended you.
I did not mean to do so, if I had.

I understand your post much better now, and that
is why I posted back my comments and questions
to get clarifications.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Rich

Carbon,

I am glad you are back on to reply and clarify.

Thank you

Rich


----------



## Damian Mavis (Jun 7, 2002)

No no I wasn't insulted, I was just confused a little.  I was thinking you were misinterpreting my post.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Nightingale (Jun 11, 2002)

I have no problem competing against men in weapons/forms/showmanship divisions.  In these divisions, the competitor is judged on what they do as an individual, and weight and strength don't matter.  However, men and women shouldn't compete in sparring matches.  

in the dojo, it doesn't matter, you're practicing.

In a competition, it is simply too hard to insure a fair fight.  Men have usually between 9 and 14 percent body fat.  A healthy woman typically is 18-24 percent.  That means that a 150 pound woman will have around 30 pounds of fat to carry around (this is mostly baby insulation, folks), and a 150 pound man will only have around 15 pounds of fat to carry around.  Bones will weigh about the same, and the rest of the weight is mostly muscle...therefore a man and woman of the same weight are NOT equally matched.  Were a woman to train to get her body fat percentage down to what a man has to ensure an equal match, her body fat would be at a level so low for women it would interfere with her reproductive system.

Its too hard to ensure a fair fight, even if you go by weight, because women carry around more fat weight than men, and we're supposed to.  Heavier women beating up on lighter men wouldn't look fair either.  I think that kata/weapons/showmanship/self defense divisions should be co-ed.  Sparring is separate for a reason and ought to stay that way.

I have no problem sparring men in my studio, but its practice, and we're all there to help each other learn.  A tournament isn't about learning. Its about fair competition, and you can't have a truly fair competition for sparring that is co-ed without taking in way more factors than practical.


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## tunetigress (Jun 11, 2002)

Yeah!  What SHE said!  Nightingale I hadn't thought of the issue quite that way before, but I agree completely.  I've never enjoyed sparring much, but then I've never tried sparring with women, none being available but my 10 year old daughter.  Maybe I'd be more into it if I'd had the chance to train with someone with whom I was more evenly matched.  When you're my age, when it hurts too much, you stop! LOL!   :shrug:


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## sweeper (Jun 11, 2002)

as far as the bodyfat precentage thing, if you have an wqual amount of muscle to your opponant but a little more body fat, you actualy might have an advantage as you can hit harder.


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## Nightingale (Jun 11, 2002)

how can more FAT make you hit harder? more muscle, yes, but fat just slows you down, because its more weight that your muscle has to move.


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## sweeper (Jun 12, 2002)

because in a full strength punch your muscles will be able to move the extra mass and your total force gennerated will be greater.

there of course is a cut off point. if you are realy over weight it will hinder you more. But First of all most people when punching won't gennerate more force by additional speed than by additional mass because they can't recruit their muscle fibers fast enough, second you don't keep much body fat on your arms and legs, most of it is close to your torso, so it shouldn't inhibit your hand/foot speed, third when motovating the weight is nessisary like in a power punch where you get your body weight behind a blow you are using your legs to shift your weight, your legs are much stronger so a small weight diffrence in total body weight affects your legs relativly less than your arms, also you will be able to gennerate more power (relative to a lighter person) due to the fact that your antgonist muscle tension would be less because your muscles contraction speed would be slower (so the total force your leg gennerates is actualy greater).

Bottom line is in a high speed low commitment punch like a jab extra weight won't slow you down because you don't care that weight on your arm and that kind of punch is mostly tricept. In a powerfull punch like a cross or hook the weight will slow you down but since the technique is already a much slower technique you are only going to land it with timming and you will have extra power in it.


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## Kiwi (Jun 12, 2002)

So far this discussion seems to be based on the assumption that the competition will involve empty hand striking. Pick up some rubber knives and do some knife sparring. Even the smallest woman can be a scary opponent with the right tools and a good head on her shoulders.

Kiwi


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## Nightingale (Jun 12, 2002)

I think the discussion started out as a question specific to competition sparring divisions, no weapons allowed...

you are very right though... give someone the right tools and they can do anything...


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kiwi _
> 
> *Pick up some rubber knives and do some knife sparring. Even the smallest woman can be a scary opponent with the right tools and a good head on her shoulders.*



Before I studied the FMA, when I was a karateka, I thought I could defend myself against the knife. Now that I know a bit about using the knife I don't have confidence that I could take out a novice without getting cut too.

Much more discussion of this in the Knife Arts forum.


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## GouRonin (Jun 12, 2002)

There is an old saying, _"God created all men but Samual Colt made them all equals."_
:zap: :shock: :shotgun: :rockets: :ripper: :lasma: :machgunr: :goop::ak47: :shooter:


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## Nightingale (Jun 12, 2002)

hehe... 

My answering machine message is Clint Eastwood saying "There ain't nobody here but me, and Smith, and Wesson."  my brother decided that since I live alone, I needed an intimidating answering machine message.


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## Monkey King (Jun 12, 2002)

The percentage of women that have excellent skill is fairly high. The percentage of women that have excellent skill and *strength*  is quite low.

This has nothing to do with body fat. Men are naturally stronger in their upper body than women. 

Same reason why women don't fight in military combat.

The percentage of women that can actually endure a full contact match with a man would also have to be very low.

Now point competition is a different story. There, the playing field would be even. But full contact...I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure we all know some woman who can hold her own, but that's one in how many?


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *Same reason why women don't fight in military combat. *



This varies by country and possibly by armed service within the country.

My recollection is that one argument against having women in combat is that it's bloodier: There were fewer surrednders to mixed-gender forces, attributed to men being unwilling to surrender to women.

In hand-to-hand combat the strength issue obviously matters. However, it matters more in a boxing-type scenario than a self-defense scenario where the defender may be able to surprise her opponent who thinks her unable to defend herself.


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## sweeper (Jun 12, 2002)

I would agree monkey king, I'm not saying there should be no female division I'm just saying if a woman wants to fight in the mens division she should be alowed to do it. in an all out fight, armed or unarmed if a woman is the same weight as a man I think she has a good chance of winning.

but I disagree with the combat thing. I think if a woman passes all the same tests/training a man does than she should see combat like a man would.


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## Nightingale (Jun 12, 2002)

what I was saying about muscle mass is that it makes weight classifications unfair, because if you look at a man and woman that weigh the same, the man will have about 10-15% more muscle than the woman.  That is why men are usually stronger than women. They have more muscle and less fat.  That's why the men were the hunters and the women were the gatherers. LOL.


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## sweeper (Jun 12, 2002)

yeah but it's not that hard to throw in a body fat test with the physical. (ok so it would be inda hard but not anywhere near imposable)

but also just cause women have less muscle doesn't mean they can't compete, I have seen plenty of over weight male boxers that still win.. I guess it would depend on the sport also. but if weight classes took into account body fat than I think a co-ed league would be ok.


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## Monkey King (Jun 12, 2002)

Hunters and Gatherers:

There have been a lot of women through history that have singlehandedly changed the way of the world. But again, they have been the exception and a small minority. 

If a woman thinks she can handle a K-1, UFC, Vale Tudo, or Sobake challenge, by all means, more power to her. I'll even be in her corner. 

In street self defense, the element of surprise and skill are always a factor, for whomever is trying to defend themselves. In order for self defence to effective, a practitioner needs to practice actually hitting something or someone. I feel this is important. This goes for males as well as females.

Women in Combat:

This issue only partially involves a woman's physical ability. Again, a woman that can equally, (very important word) measure up to the rigorous physical and mental taxation is an exception, but not common among the general populace of females.

BUT, the Israelis tried it, and acknowledge now that it was a mistake. Not because women couldn't handle it, but  MOSTLY because people couldn't stand to see their daughters come home in a box.

In most cultures, including ours, women are not expendable. 

I am 45 years old. Out of all the physically fit women I've known, only one could have done what I did in the Marine Corps. 

Again, the exception. 

Sorry, I don't mean to change the topic of this thread.


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## Nightingale (Jun 13, 2002)

disclaimer: I'm not a guy, so I can't say how the male mind works.  If I knew how the male mind works, I'd write a book, make millions, and retire at age 24.   The below scenario is probably not always the case, but it is an argument the government has put forth regarding women in combat:

another reason women aren't in combat is because of the way the men react to having them around.  Its distracting.  Instead of thinking of fighting a war, the men tend to think about keeping the women out of the line of fire.  This situation doesn't occur in non-life threatening situations, such as control operations or whatever, or even when it comes to planes dropping bombs, but for some reason when the women are in immediate danger and in the line of sight of the men, the men think about protecting them instead of covering their own asses.


dunno, guys, what do you think?


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## Monkey King (Jun 13, 2002)

I would agree. At least from my perspective. It's the way we were raised, I guess.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *disclaimer: I'm not a guy, so I can't say how the male mind works.  If I knew how the male mind works, I'd write a book, make millions, and retire at age 24.   The below scenario is probably not always the case, but it is an argument the government has put forth regarding women in combat:
> 
> ...




Hi nightingale8472,

On TLC I saw a show that discussed the difference
between Men and Women. One of the things that
was discussed was the instinct in men to protect
children and women. The conjecture was that 
women's voices stay in the higher octaves, in the
range of that of children's voices, to help men
treat women instinctively as something that needs
assistance immediately.

Now, never being in life or death combat with
women present, I cannot testify to this myself.

Best Regards

Rich


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## sweeper (Jun 13, 2002)

interesting.. however throughout history there have been cultures in wich women would fight along side men...


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *interesting.. however throughout history there have been cultures in wich women would fight along side men... *




Hi Sweeper,

I did say I say it on TLC, which is TV.
This does nto mean it is the correct answer
nor the only answer, only as you put it,
an interesting piece of information.

I agree the some cultures have men and women
fighting along each other. In some, the men
woudl fight, but the women owned everything.
An unmarried man had his mother hold items for
him until her was married.

Many different cultures many different answers.

Thanks

Rich


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## sweeper (Jun 14, 2002)

unfortunatly those cultures aren't predominant enough to do any sociological research on how men react to women in danger


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## Seig (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *the men think about protecting them instead of covering their own asses.
> 
> ...


Yes, someone else's *** is what they tend to think about


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## Nightingale (Jun 14, 2002)

Is it true that men think about sex every seven seconds?  From the guys I know, I'd think it was more often than that...


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## tunetigress (Jun 14, 2002)

Well my hubby never stops thinking about it.  The concept of every 7 seconds seems to imply some sort of break, or occasional change of thought to some other topic.  IS there any other focus in the life of the average man???  LOL!   :rofl:


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tunetigress _
> 
> *Well my hubby never stops thinking about it.  The concept of every 7 seconds seems to imply some sort of break, or occasional change of thought to some other topic.  IS there any other focus in the life of the average man???  LOL!   :rofl: *



I think the answer to your question in NO!.
I say think, for I never truely thought of another focus  
and do not have any other frame of reference.  

Oh well, back to work  

Rich
:rofl:


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 14, 2002)

What the hell?!  Notice how easily women change the subject to sex!?  I think they got their "thinking about sex every 7 seconds" thing pegged on the wrong gender!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Nightingale (Jun 14, 2002)

I never claimed that women didn't.  I just said that men did.  



and it was Seig that said that men are usually thinking about someone else's *** rather than covering their own.


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## KenpoTess (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *I never claimed that women didn't.  I just said that men did.
> 
> ...



ahhh guess I'll stick my nose into this.. as Seig's my husband ..*g*..  somehow these threads degenerate into either Food or food. sex is now a new issue.. but I don't feel it is the reason why the thread was created .. so how about we just leave it and keep the smiles on our faces..

Tess


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## Nightingale (Jun 15, 2002)

hehe...ok.


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## Seig (Jun 15, 2002)

why i made the comment I did.  I am a military vet.  When I was young and dumb, versus old and stupid, we asked the same question of our trainers. "Why don't women fight in combat?"  The answer we got was that it caused sexual tension and that the men were too worried about the women then they were about fighting.  They went onto to state that the women risked rape or worse from the enemy and their own men. Whether this is true or not, I dunno, I have never been in that situation.  I was not implying that that is all we think about.  I thought that wityh the normally intelligent people that inhabit this board my statement would be understood as I meant it.  It was not, I apologize. :asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Jun 15, 2002)

Rape is definately a problem if captured by enemy soldiers.  I'd rather be tortured in other ways than that way if I was a woman and captured.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Nightingale (Jun 16, 2002)

I was just teasing you, sieg.


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## sweeper (Jun 16, 2002)

if anyone is captured they risk torture and death..  I personaly don't think rape is the worst punishment.


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## arnisador (Jun 17, 2002)

Everyone:
Please direct this thread back on topic:
*Why don't women compete with men?*

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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