# What do you get out of boxing that you don't out of kickboxing or muay thai?



## skribs

Taekwondoist here.  I'm letting my mind wander over to arts that focus more on the fists than on the feet.  From the outside looking in, it looks like boxing is the most restrictive and Muay Thai is the least restrictive, with kickboxing in the middle.  (This is because Boxing is restricted to hands, kickboxing to hands and feet, and muay thai lets you clinch, use knees and elbows).

From the perspective of someone building up their martial arts skills, what does someone get out of choosing to go with boxing over the more open sports of kickboxing or muay thai?  Or is it simply that you get to focus more on punching?


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## Tez3

You get more concussions.


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## Buka

Boxing is a very specialized, limited art. Consider - yeah, sure, we all train either hand/foot forward or back. Boxers don't. And forget the exceptions, although we would never discount them, we are not addressing them right now. Boxers do not train with either hand/foot forward. They are one sided, and, yes, we all know the the guy who likes to switch......but he's a Martial Artist who also happens to box, he's not a boxer.

Boxing has *the jab*, *the cross*, *the hook* and *the uppercut*. That's it, that's the list. Everything else is just semantics. Shovel hooks, bolos and various tweaks of the Holy Four are just that, tweaks. Thinking about a fighter with only four techniques, and those techniques are techniques that YOU KNOW.....blows my mind.

But, oh man, has boxing got the application down to a science. If you're young and plan on spending your whole life in Martial Arts, please spend a couple years in a boxing gym. It will help you in ways you can't even understand yet.


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## jobo

skribs said:


> Taekwondoist here.  I'm letting my mind wander over to arts that focus more on the fists than on the feet.  From the outside looking in, it looks like boxing is the most restrictive and Muay Thai is the least restrictive, with kickboxing in the middle.  (This is because Boxing is restricted to hands, kickboxing to hands and feet, and muay thai lets you clinch, use knees and elbows).
> 
> From the perspective of someone building up their martial arts skills, what does someone get out of choosing to go with boxing over the more open sports of kickboxing or muay thai?  Or is it simply that you get to focus more on punching?


What do you get ?

A sport that's honed for"combat"  no flim flam, no " what's this technique for ? "  half a dozen attacking options that you do over again through you career till you perfact them, being advanced means using basics at high speed in combination  not learning another 200 obscure variation but what a boxer develops is movement and that's what's make a then really hard to hit/ defend against.

Kick boxing should be better all the above plus kicking and knees, but it seems to lack the fluency of boxing, it's as if the present e if kicking has remove some of the effectiveness of punching and chance the movement patterns for the worse!


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## Danny T

Buka said:


> If you're young and plan on spending your whole life in Martial Arts, please spend a couple years in a boxing gym. It will help you in ways you can't even understand yet.


If you are serious about being proficient with empty hand striking. Spend some serious training time in a boxing gym. Today most all real muay thai training facilities have boxing as a part of their programs.


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## Tony Dismukes

As a general rule, boxers understand footwork and head movement at a higher level than kickboxers. As others have said, they also tend to have mastered the application of their punches more than fighters who have more weapons to train.


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## skribs

Buka said:


> Boxing has *the jab*, *the cross*, *the hook* and *the uppercut*. That's it, that's the list. Everything else is just semantics. Shovel hooks, bolos and various tweaks of the Holy Four are just that, tweaks. Thinking about a fighter with only four techniques, and those techniques are techniques that YOU KNOW.....blows my mind.



I'd argue that those are the only punching techniques boxing has.  They also have a lot of footwork and head movement, which is I guess what I would want.

And I would be the stubborn guy that goes to a boxing gym and asks to train both sides (because that's how it lines up with my other martial arts training). 

What is a shovel hook or a bolo?

And is 30 "young"?  How about 37 (the age I will probably be when I do pick up another martial art)?


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## marques

Better punching, ‘better’ footwork and ‘better’ head movement. It is not unusual having kickboxers and Thai boxers training and competing in boxing. There is something in there.


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## DaveB

The infinite complexity of the simple.

I think boxing teaches us how to train for fighting. 

I think the simplicity of the limited move set. Let's you focus on the the intricacies of the game almost from day one.

I started understanding how to fight when after 3ish years of karate I stopped and asked, "how do I land a simple straight punch". Boxing is essentially that question given form.


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## skribs

DaveB said:


> The infinite complexity of the simple.
> 
> I think boxing teaches us how to train for fighting.
> 
> I think the simplicity of the limited move set. Let's you focus on the the intricacies of the game almost from day one.
> 
> I started understanding how to fight when after 3ish years of karate I stopped and asked, "how do I land a simple straight punch". Boxing is essentially that question given form.



So, I was pretty much rejecting kickboxing as an option.  I was thinking I'd either go the route of Muay Thai because it has more techniques available and most we don't drill much in Taekwondo (knees, elbows, and hands) as well as the clinch, or I'd go boxing to focus specifically on my hands.  Kickboxing seemed to be in the middle in a bad way.

I guess the question, then, is what do I want to do?  Do I want to focus on all the strikes we don't get to spar with in TKD?  Or do I want to focus on the punch itself.

I'll probably be asking myself this question until I eventually DO pick it up.

Maybe I'll sign up for a few boxing classes during our breaks from Taekwondo to give myself a little bit of a change in rhythm.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

skribs said:


> I'd argue that those are the only punching techniques boxing has.  They also have a lot of footwork and head movement, which is I guess what I would want.
> 
> And I would be the stubborn guy that goes to a boxing gym and asks to train both sides (because that's how it lines up with my other martial arts training).
> 
> What is a shovel hook or a bolo?
> 
> And is 30 "young"?  How about 37 (the age I will probably be when I do pick up another martial art)?


Out of curiosity, why wait another 7 years?


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## pdg

skribs said:


> So, I was pretty much rejecting kickboxing as an option.  I was thinking I'd either go the route of Muay Thai because it has more techniques available and most we don't drill much in Taekwondo (knees, elbows, and hands) as well as the clinch, or I'd go boxing to focus specifically on my hands.  Kickboxing seemed to be in the middle in a bad way.



Depends on the teacher.

While we don't use elbows or knees in sparring, we do train and drill them.

Clinch not so much, but a little.

I can definitely see how some (a lot?) places don't though.


That said, all that is in tkd class as well...


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## skribs

kempodisciple said:


> Out of curiosity, why wait another 7 years?



Want to get my 5th degree in TKD before I branch out and pursue other striking training.  I simply don't have time in my schedule for another art and that's my priority at the moment.  I just got my 3rd degree, and the minimum time is 3 years from 3rd to 4th, and 4 years from 4th to 5th.  At that point it's simple math 



pdg said:


> Depends on the teacher.
> 
> While we don't use elbows or knees in sparring, we do train and drill them.
> 
> Clinch not so much, but a little.
> 
> I can definitely see how some (a lot?) places don't though.
> 
> 
> That said, all that is in tkd class as well...



It might exist in some form in TKD, but not in my curriculum, and not to the degree it is in Muay Thai.

Let me rephrase - the clinch is not taught at all at my school.  The TKD clinch is vastly different from the MT clinch.  Elbows and knees are taught, but not drilled, and definitely not sparred.


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## Buka

skribs said:


> I'd argue that those are the only punching techniques boxing has.  They also have a lot of footwork and head movement, which is I guess what I would want.
> 
> And I would be the stubborn guy that goes to a boxing gym and asks to train both sides (because that's how it lines up with my other martial arts training).
> 
> What is a shovel hook or a bolo?
> 
> And is 30 "young"?  How about 37 (the age I will probably be when I do pick up another martial art)?



A shovel hook is the illegitimate child of a hook and an uppercut. They are wonderful for going to the body. You would love them. 

A bolo is sort of a wind up uppercut.

Thirty seven is too old to do anything. People should be put out to pasture at that age. They are ancient, like the mountains.


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## skribs

Buka said:


> A shovel hook is the illegitimate child of a hook and an uppercut. They are wonderful for going to the body. You would love them.
> 
> A bolo is sort of a wind up uppercut.
> 
> Thirty seven is too old to do anything. People should be put out to pasture at that age. They are ancient, like the mountains.



Good to know.  When I turn 36 I will start to get my affairs in order.


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## pdg

skribs said:


> It might exist in some form in TKD, but not in my curriculum, and not to the degree it is in Muay Thai.
> 
> Let me rephrase - the clinch is not taught at all at my school. The TKD clinch is vastly different from the MT clinch. Elbows and knees are taught, but not drilled, and definitely not sparred.



Again, it depends on the tkd - then the school - then the teacher.

Do you not have elbow and knee strikes (combined with grabs/clinches) in your patterns?

Do you not do patterns against pad holders?

Do you not have elbows and knees (and grabs) in your set step sparring?


Oh, and I googled "muay thai clinch" - video results previews all showed wrap the neck, optionally trap one arm, go in with knee, optionally turn for sweep/takedown. Almost exactly like a move sequence in the Toi Gye pattern...

The bit I will freely agree with is it's certainly not taken to the same level as in MT.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

@skribs this is mainly for you, but other kukkiwon tkdists are free to answer me.

Reading your posts recently, I can't tell if this is your school or kukkiwon TKD in general...but the style doesn't seem to mesh with itself. You have kata and one-steps and techniques that focus on handwork, which is actively under-rewarded in the official style, so the style, and particularly the sparring format, doesn't seem to allow for the transition from form and drill to application. Instead, you are learning application for things (various kicks) that are not officially part of the forms/curriculum. To me that form-drill-application part is the most important, so it's an issue if the style has a disconnect between what it chooses to apply and what it chooses to teach...

Or am I just totally off base and getting implications from your posts that are not there?


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## skribs

pdg said:


> Again, it depends on the tkd - then the school - then the teacher.
> 
> Do you not have elbow and knee strikes (combined with grabs/clinches) in your patterns?
> 
> Do you not do patterns against pad holders?
> 
> Do you not have elbows and knees (and grabs) in your set step sparring?
> 
> 
> Oh, and I googled "muay thai clinch" - video results previews all showed wrap the neck, optionally trap one arm, go in with knee, optionally turn for sweep/takedown. Almost exactly like a move sequence in the Toi Gye pattern...
> 
> The bit I will freely agree with is it's certainly not taken to the same level as in MT.



WT TKD sparring rules are very similar to NFL holding rules.  You can't grab, you can't wrap your arms around the person.  Think of anything you can do in Judo or Wrestling - can't do in TKD.  The "clinch" is more like an NFL block, with your hands square to the opponent on their chest to block their movement.

So there IS a clinch...but it's not the clinch, if that makes sense.

We use knees and elbows in our step sparring.  We don't practice defense against them and we don't generally drill them on a moving target.



kempodisciple said:


> @skribs this is mainly for you, but other kukkiwon tkdists are free to answer me.
> 
> Reading your posts recently, I can't tell if this is your school or kukkiwon TKD in general...but the style doesn't seem to mesh with itself. You have kata and one-steps and techniques that focus on handwork, which is actively under-rewarded in the official style, so the style, and particularly the sparring format, doesn't seem to allow for the transition from form and drill to application. Instead, you are learning application for things (various kicks) that are not officially part of the forms/curriculum. To me that form-drill-application part is the most important, so it's an issue if the style has a disconnect between what it chooses to apply and what it chooses to teach...
> 
> Or am I just totally off base and getting implications from your posts that are not there?



I think it's accurate, to some degree at least.  The way I see it, there's the art and demonstration (forms and tricking kicks), the self defense (which comes from forms, but also one-step drills), and sparring (sparring drills and tournaments).

Each of these are almost their own style.  The combat style is very similar to Shotokan Karate, with some of our stuff reminding me of Krav Maga, and some of our more advanced drills a little bit of Wing Chun.  The sparring style is unique to TKD as it is almost entirely kicks and focused on points, but any art that has a lot of kicks (kickboxing comes to mind) might be similar.  Then there's the trick kicks which are more like Capoiera or Wushu.

So if you were to take away "Taekwondo", then we would do Karate forms and defense drills, kickboxing sparring, and Wushu demonstration kicks.  There is definitely some incongruence there.  Most TKD schools, to my knowledge, focus primarily on forms and sparring.  (Most TKD people on this site probably go to a school which teaches more, so this site might not give a good demographic representation of TKD schools).  While they are more focused than my school, they are still incongruent with each other.

You can probably see evidence of this in a post I recently made in the TKD forum about how the forms don't teach sparring tactics, and what would a form look like if it taught the techniques and tactics used in TKD sparring?  I also have expressed similar thoughts about the new competition forms, which include sparring moves, more traditional punching techniques, and some trick kicks.  It's like the form can't decide what it is.

If you look at the history of Taekwondo (you can get a summary of these from the stickies in the TKD forum) you'll see why this all has happened.  Taekwondo's roots in Tang Soo Do and Karate are where the base combat system comes from.  TKD's decision to focus on kicks in sparring (since anyone can throw a punch to the head) and the R&D that's gone into that game is why the sparring is the way it is.  And the trick kicks are an extension of that focus on kicks, with a different idea in mind - to look cool.

So I understand why it's branched out the way it has.  But you're right, it's gotten to a point where you're learning different things, and for the most part can feel like 2 different arts that you fit into one class, and it can be hard for the students to figure out what type of technique they need for what application.


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## pdg

A couple of things:

Thing 1 - My previous posts read like "oh wow, tkd can cover everything" - I do believe it can, but not for everyone.

If muay thai, boxing (or anything else) looks appealing or otherwise floats your boat, go do it 


Thing 2 - I would really like there to be some distinction made when referring to taekwondo and taekwon-do.

There appear to be many big differences between them, yet they get lumped together because of the name. The art @skribs describes seems fundamentally different to the one I practice.


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## skribs

pdg said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> Thing 1 - My previous posts read like "oh wow, tkd can cover everything" - I do believe it can, but not for everyone.
> 
> If muay thai, boxing (or anything else) looks appealing or otherwise floats your boat, go do it
> 
> 
> Thing 2 - I would really like there to be some distinction made when referring to taekwondo and taekwon-do.
> 
> There appear to be many big differences between them, yet they get lumped together because of the name. The art @skribs describes seems fundamentally different to the one I practice.



What is the difference between Taekwondo and Taekwon-do?  Or Tae Kwon Do?  Which one do YOU do and which one do I do?

Or is it simply a different organization (i.e. WTF, ITF, ATA, or another off shoot)?


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## pdg

skribs said:


> What is the difference between Taekwondo and Taekwon-do?  Or Tae Kwon Do?  Which one do YOU do and which one do I do?
> 
> Or is it simply a different organization (i.e. WTF, ITF, ATA, or another off shoot)?



I do taekwon-do (ITF).

I understand you do taekwondo (KKW).

I don't know what tae kwon do consists of...

Essentially, the organisation is what defines it.

The organisation is what steers development, defines the focus, sets the sparring rules and format and provides the core curriculum.

That is what shapes the art.

A little example - if you were to come sparring with us, you would probably get punched in the face a fair few times (in a nice way ).

The look of the art is very different too - compare stances and movement in some pattern videos on YouTube (if you don't know what to look for with ITF, I can link you if you pm me).


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## skribs

pdg said:


> I do taekwon-do (ITF).
> 
> I understand you do taekwondo (KKW).
> 
> I don't know what tae kwon do consists of...
> 
> Essentially, the organisation is what defines it.
> 
> The organisation is what steers development, defines the focus, sets the sparring rules and format and provides the core curriculum.
> 
> That is what shapes the art.
> 
> A little example - if you were to come sparring with us, you would probably get punched in the face a fair few times (in a nice way ).
> 
> The look of the art is very different too - compare stances and movement in some pattern videos on YouTube (if you don't know what to look for with ITF, I can link you if you pm me).



If you call it "Taekwondo" and "Taekwond-Do" you're probably going to be the only person who knows what you're talking about.  It's a lot simpler to say you take "ITF TKD".  Because that immediately establishes the difference.

Plus, in most of my posts, I do mention either KKW or WTF, so it's pretty obvious what organization I'm talking about.


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## pdg

skribs said:


> If you call it "Taekwondo" and "Taekwond-Do" you're probably going to be the only person who knows what you're talking about.  It's a lot simpler to say you take "ITF TKD".  Because that immediately establishes the difference.
> 
> Plus, in most of my posts, I do mention either KKW or WTF, so it's pretty obvious what organization I'm talking about.



In most of your posts (that I've read) you tend to refer to tkd or taekwondo, with kkw/wtf as a little side note here or there, very very rarely as part of the name.

Inserting the hyphen would be a very silly way to rely on identification...


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## skribs

pdg said:


> In most of your posts (that I've read) you tend to refer to tkd or taekwondo, with kkw/wtf as a little side note here or there, very very rarely as part of the name.
> 
> Inserting the hyphen would be a very silly way to rely on identification...



I agree, but that seems to be what you're doing.  Because you keep asking for us to differentiate "Taekwondo" from "Taekwon-do" to distance yourself from me.  What you really want is to differentiate from "KKW Taekwondo" and "ITF Taekwon-do", which is going to be a lot easier.


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## pdg

skribs said:


> I agree, but that seems to be what you're doing.  Because you keep asking for us to differentiate "Taekwondo" from "Taekwon-do" to distance yourself from me.  What you really want is to differentiate from "KKW Taekwondo" and "ITF Taekwon-do", which is going to be a lot easier.



That's fine, I can support that 

It's not to distance myself from you btw, that would imply disrespect and I really don't know you enough to disrespect you.


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## drop bear

skribs said:


> I'd argue that those are the only punching techniques boxing has.  They also have a lot of footwork and head movement, which is I guess what I would want.
> 
> And I would be the stubborn guy that goes to a boxing gym and asks to train both sides (because that's how it lines up with my other martial arts training).
> 
> What is a shovel hook or a bolo?
> 
> And is 30 "young"?  How about 37 (the age I will probably be when I do pick up another martial art)?



Look up pensioner martial artist who wreck criminals and you will almost always find a boxer.

Apart from the head trauma it is probably the easiest on the body. 

You can box out of a wheelchair if you want.


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## pdg

skribs said:


> Because you keep asking for us to differentiate "Taekwondo" from "Taekwon-do"



To expand on this a little...

Once people have got used to the company kept on this site (some do this quicker than others) the instances of "I do karate" for example drastically reduce.

The differences between the sub styles of "karate" are recognised (whether or not fully understood). It doesn't make one better than another, just helps in discussion.

I'd like the same for what comes under the TKD name umbrella...

I'm probably asking too much, but one day it'd be hugely entertaining for me to not get the "oh but you guys don't use punches in sparring" response


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## skribs

pdg said:


> To expand on this a little...
> 
> Once people have got used to the company kept on this site (some do this quicker than others) the instances of "I do karate" for example drastically reduce.
> 
> The differences between the sub styles of "karate" are recognised (whether or not fully understood). It doesn't make one better than another, just helps in discussion.
> 
> I'd like the same for what comes under the TKD name umbrella...
> 
> I'm probably asking too much, but one day it'd be hugely entertaining for me to not get the "oh but you guys don't use punches in sparring" response



"We do punch in ITF sparring" is the response you can use.  And technically we punch in WT sparring.  Just not to the head, and it usually doesn't score points.  But it's a good counter to a kick in close.


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## MetalBoar

skribs said:


> "We do punch in ITF sparring" is the response you can use.  And technically we punch in WT sparring.  Just not to the head, and *it usually doesn't score points*.  But it's a good counter to a kick in close.


I've heard this before and I could probably find an answer very quickly with Google, but if you don't mind, could you explain how the "usually doesn't" part works?


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## skribs

MetalBoar said:


> I've heard this before and I could probably find an answer very quickly with Google, but if you don't mind, could you explain how the "usually doesn't" part works?



It depends partly on what scoring system you're using.  

*Legacy System*
If you're using a legacy system where the judges have to notice the hits, then any time they see the foot contact the pad they're supposed to score it.  A basic roundhouse or snap side kick (not a pushing side kick) is 1 or 2 points, a back kick or tornado kick is 2 or 3 points, a headshot is 3 points, and a turning headshot is 4 points.  (Sometime's it's 1 and 2 for roundhouse kick and back kick, sometimes 1 and 3, sometimes 2 and 3, depending on the rules at the time).

So any kick that will hit the target is scored.  But a punch has to have an actual effect.  The punch has to knock the person back, knock them down, or visibly disrupt them enough to warrant a point.  So while, in general, I can play tag with my feet and score tons of points, if I want to use a punch, I have to make it count, or it doesn't count.

*Daedo System*
Using the electronic scoring system, there are sensors in the chestguard and headguard that record hits from more sensors on your instep and heel.  (This is why ball-of-the-foot kicks aren't trained in KKW TKD).  There are no sensors in your hands.  I'm not sure if you can even score on a punch with Daedo, but if you do it is a judge's call, and not a sensor hit.  So if you're making contact with your feet, it's up to the impartial sensor.  If you make contact with your hands, it can be up to the judge, and again - it has to be a staggering blow.

---

Now, this isn't to say that punches aren't useful.  A good punch to the solar plexus can knock the wind out of a fighter.  Punches are good distancing techniques to knock them out of ax kick range or to set up your own kicks.  Punches are really useful against smaller fighters up close when you can't use your feet.

But when you can score 2-3 points per kick and kicks score more often than punches, they don't really get used.  There's also that a staggering blow takes the opponent out of range of a follow-up punch, so you can't really combo points into punches.  You can do roundhouse kick- double punch - roundhouse kick and get a few points from the kicks, but you can't string several punches together and get points on all of them.


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## MetalBoar

skribs said:


> It depends partly on what scoring system you're using.
> 
> *Legacy System*
> If you're using a legacy system where the judges have to notice the hits, then any time they see the foot contact the pad they're supposed to score it.  A basic roundhouse or snap side kick (not a pushing side kick) is 1 or 2 points, a back kick or tornado kick is 2 or 3 points, a headshot is 3 points, and a turning headshot is 4 points.  (Sometime's it's 1 and 2 for roundhouse kick and back kick, sometimes 1 and 3, sometimes 2 and 3, depending on the rules at the time).
> 
> So any kick that will hit the target is scored.  But a punch has to have an actual effect.  The punch has to knock the person back, knock them down, or visibly disrupt them enough to warrant a point.  So while, in general, I can play tag with my feet and score tons of points, if I want to use a punch, I have to make it count, or it doesn't count.
> 
> *Daedo System*
> Using the electronic scoring system, there are sensors in the chestguard and headguard that record hits from more sensors on your instep and heel.  (This is why ball-of-the-foot kicks aren't trained in KKW TKD).  There are no sensors in your hands.  I'm not sure if you can even score on a punch with Daedo, but if you do it is a judge's call, and not a sensor hit.  So if you're making contact with your feet, it's up to the impartial sensor.  If you make contact with your hands, it can be up to the judge, and again - it has to be a staggering blow.
> 
> ---
> 
> Now, this isn't to say that punches aren't useful.  A good punch to the solar plexus can knock the wind out of a fighter.  Punches are good distancing techniques to knock them out of ax kick range or to set up your own kicks.  Punches are really useful against smaller fighters up close when you can't use your feet.
> 
> But when you can score 2-3 points per kick and kicks score more often than punches, they don't really get used.  There's also that a staggering blow takes the opponent out of range of a follow-up punch, so you can't really combo points into punches.  You can do roundhouse kick- double punch - roundhouse kick and get a few points from the kicks, but you can't string several punches together and get points on all of them.


Cool, thanks! I wasn't aware that TKD was doing electronic scoring, interesting stuff. I know from fencing that there can be pros and cons to that, but I'm guessing it allows for some really fast action.


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## skribs

MetalBoar said:


> Cool, thanks! I wasn't aware that TKD was doing electronic scoring, interesting stuff. I know from fencing that there can be pros and cons to that, but I'm guessing it allows for some really fast action.



Technically the legacy system is electronic.  You would have 3 judges, with a gameboy-looking thing that has buttons for 1, 2, and 3 points for Red and 1, 2, and 3 points for blue.  You need 2 judges to hit the point simultaneously in order for a point to be scored.

That has its own problems, because what a "hit" is is subjective (some judges it's any contact at all, some judges it's a hit that rocks the other person), and because if the judges are off-time from each other or overcompensate they can skew scores wildly.  First tournament I did at the school I'm at had 9 rings going at once.  Ring 1 usually had a score of like 0-2 or 1-3 or 3-4.  Ring 3 usually had a score of 34-27, 25-21, or 38-33.  The matches were similar, but that's how the scores went.

Of course then you have the full electronic scoring where they put the head gear sensor into the chestguard and so the chest gets tapped and you get 3 points.


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## pdg

skribs said:


> Of course then you have the full electronic scoring where they put the head gear sensor into the chestguard and so the chest gets tapped and you get 3 points.



You'd think something like a pen could sort that out proper quick - like scrawl "head" and "chest" on the sensors 

Or maybe hit them to see what they register just before fitting them.


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## skribs

pdg said:


> You'd think something like a pen could sort that out proper quick - like scrawl "head" and "chest" on the sensors
> 
> Or maybe hit them to see what they register just before fitting them.



Both of those were being done.  Actually they were labeled head and chest.

And somehow it still got screwed up.

I think once they put the blue sensors in the red chest and so when blue kicked they scored against themselves.

Some of these we could get corrected, but some of them (like a sensor not being properly calibrated and not accepting any hits) you just didn't get the points for.


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## FriedRice

skribs said:


> Taekwondoist here.



Boxing + TKD is a very effective combo.  Pressure fighting in Boxing range and spamming low leg kicks, works very well vs. styles that like to setup kicks with proper range, like TKD and Muay Thai too.


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## Buka

I never understood the electronic scoring system. But, then, not understanding something seems to be one of my fortes.

To me...


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## Gerry Seymour

skribs said:


> So, I was pretty much rejecting kickboxing as an option.  I was thinking I'd either go the route of Muay Thai because it has more techniques available and most we don't drill much in Taekwondo (knees, elbows, and hands) as well as the clinch, or I'd go boxing to focus specifically on my hands.  Kickboxing seemed to be in the middle in a bad way.
> 
> I guess the question, then, is what do I want to do?  Do I want to focus on all the strikes we don't get to spar with in TKD?  Or do I want to focus on the punch itself.
> 
> I'll probably be asking myself this question until I eventually DO pick it up.
> 
> Maybe I'll sign up for a few boxing classes during our breaks from Taekwondo to give myself a little bit of a change in rhythm.


My thought on this, for what it's worth, is that I'll be able to punch much longer than I'll be able to kick. That's probably more of a concern for me - given my leg/foot issues - than most folks. With that in mind, I've focused much more on punching than kicking the last couple of years, so if I was making that choice, I'd probably opt for boxing.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I never understood the electronic scoring system. But, then, not understanding something seems to be one of my fortes.
> 
> To me...
> 
> View attachment 21843


I think it was more for the referee than for the competitors.


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## skribs

skribs said:


> It depends partly on what scoring system you're using.
> 
> *Legacy System*
> If you're using a legacy system where the judges have to notice the hits, then any time they see the foot contact the pad they're supposed to score it.  A basic roundhouse or snap side kick (not a pushing side kick) is 1 or 2 points, a back kick or tornado kick is 2 or 3 points, a headshot is 3 points, and a turning headshot is 4 points.  (Sometime's it's 1 and 2 for roundhouse kick and back kick, sometimes 1 and 3, sometimes 2 and 3, depending on the rules at the time).
> 
> So any kick that will hit the target is scored.  But a punch has to have an actual effect.  The punch has to knock the person back, knock them down, or visibly disrupt them enough to warrant a point.  So while, in general, I can play tag with my feet and score tons of points, if I want to use a punch, I have to make it count, or it doesn't count.
> 
> *Daedo System*
> Using the electronic scoring system, there are sensors in the chestguard and headguard that record hits from more sensors on your instep and heel.  (This is why ball-of-the-foot kicks aren't trained in KKW TKD).  There are no sensors in your hands.  I'm not sure if you can even score on a punch with Daedo, but if you do it is a judge's call, and not a sensor hit.  So if you're making contact with your feet, it's up to the impartial sensor.  If you make contact with your hands, it can be up to the judge, and again - it has to be a staggering blow.
> 
> ---
> 
> Now, this isn't to say that punches aren't useful.  A good punch to the solar plexus can knock the wind out of a fighter.  Punches are good distancing techniques to knock them out of ax kick range or to set up your own kicks.  Punches are really useful against smaller fighters up close when you can't use your feet.
> 
> But when you can score 2-3 points per kick and kicks score more often than punches, they don't really get used.  There's also that a staggering blow takes the opponent out of range of a follow-up punch, so you can't really combo points into punches.  You can do roundhouse kick- double punch - roundhouse kick and get a few points from the kicks, but you can't string several punches together and get points on all of them.



After all the "informative" responses I got on this post I may want to re-write it in the TKD forums!


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## dvcochran

skribs said:


> Taekwondoist here.  I'm letting my mind wander over to arts that focus more on the fists than on the feet.  From the outside looking in, it looks like boxing is the most restrictive and Muay Thai is the least restrictive, with kickboxing in the middle.  (This is because Boxing is restricted to hands, kickboxing to hands and feet, and muay thai lets you clinch, use knees and elbows).
> 
> From the perspective of someone building up their martial arts skills, what does someone get out of choosing to go with boxing over the more open sports of kickboxing or muay thai?  Or is it simply that you get to focus more on punching?


I think it would be a hard marriage for the reasons others have listed about being a small, specific set of techniques but if you could really make it work with your TKD, that would be tough to handle.


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## Kababayan

DaveB said:


> after 3ish years of karate I stopped and asked, "how do I land a simple straight punch". Boxing is essentially that question given form.



This is such a great line.  I am a big proponent for consistently hitting a heavy bag so that a martial artist doesn't pull a punch too early.  There can be a disconnect between air punching and powerful punching.  There is the term _Jiu Jitsu Strong _to describe the strength that jiu jitsu builds after the first year_..._I think hitting the heavy bag makes a person _Punching Strong. _


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## dvcochran

Kababayan said:


> This is such a great line.  I am a big proponent for consistently hitting a heavy bag so that a martial artist doesn't pull a punch too early.  There can be a disconnect between air punching and powerful punching.  There is the term _Jiu Jitsu Strong _to describe the strength that jiu jitsu builds after the first year_..._I think hitting the heavy bag makes a person _Punching Strong. _


I agree. How do you get a class of size that is larger than the number of bags you have? I am seriously asking for ideas.


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## DaveB

dvcochran said:


> I agree. How do you get a class of size that is larger than the number of bags you have? I am seriously asking for ideas.


Bag work needs minimal instructions to be beneficial, so rotate students using timed rounds.


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## MetalBoar

dvcochran said:


> I agree. How do you get a class of size that is larger than the number of bags you have? I am seriously asking for ideas.


Well, if I understand your question clearly; at one of the old schools I used to train at we had room for 1 heavy bag in the gym. We'd line up and each student would do a series of combos or whatever we were working on on the bag and then move to another drill and be replaced by the next student in line. The next drill might be working focus mitts or some sort of kicking pad work and then when that was done back to the end of the line for the heavy bag drill. If we had a large class there might be 2 or three different drills before you got back to the heavy bag so that no one ever got much of a break. We'd rotate students in and out of holding the pads so everyone got in plenty of time on everything.

Usually we'd spend about a minute at each "station"  and then the instructor would tell everyone to rotate. Most of the time we'd be expected to go 100% for each drill. If it was a smaller class we might focus more on form and receive more instruction and correction from the instructor.


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## Buka

DaveB said:


> Bag work needs minimal instructions to be beneficial, so rotate students using timed rounds.



I’ll add the obvious caveat. It needs minimal instruction once they know how to hit a bag. But, man, I’ve seen some poor bag work over the years.


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## Denoaikido

ive done kick boxing and studied a lot of arts ill just say one thing very superior about boxing in my opinion is there footwork if your taught the right foot work its can be the major difference just my two cents


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## dvcochran

Denoaikido said:


> ive done kick boxing and studied a lot of arts ill just say one thing very superior about boxing in my opinion is there footwork if your taught the right foot work its can be the major difference just my two cents


Welcome to the forum. Look forward to your input.


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## Denoaikido

thank you great forum here very fun to see so many interested ppl in all kinds of martial arts


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## dvcochran

Denoaikido said:


> thank you great forum here very fun to see so many interested ppl in all kinds of martial arts


Welcome to the forum. Look forward to hearing from you.


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## Denoaikido

I humbly thank every one


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## Hanshi

Boxing teaches you what it feels like to get hit with less chance of general injury.  I like kickboxing but I love boxing.  I've never participated in any muay thai although a couple of my students did; one even went to Thailand but the other called it quits after a few fights - he said his legs just got too banged up.


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## skribs

Hanshi said:


> Boxing teaches you what it feels like to get hit with less chance of general injury.  I like kickboxing but I love boxing.  I've never participated in any muay thai although a couple of my students did; one even went to Thailand but the other called it quits after a few fights - he said his legs just got too banged up.



I think you misunderstood.  I wanted to take boxing because they know how to NOT get hit with punches.


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## Denoaikido

They do teach the sweet science some way better then others finding a good boxing coach is key In my opinion  seriously I do  think it can make all the difference just look at some famous fighters and there coaching history.


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