# Historical question - open



## IWishToLearn (May 22, 2006)

Dr. Chapel mentioned last time I got to go visit him that Tom Kelly was responsible for the original idea of the 5" bar for 5th Dan. My curiosity was the why & how it was decided on red for the stripe colors?


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## Doc (May 23, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Dr. Chapel mentioned last time I got to go visit him that Tom Kelly was responsible for the original idea of the 5" bar for 5th Dan. My curiosity was the why & how it was decided on red for the stripe colors?



Once students began to 'attain' significant rank, all the stripes looked 'tacky.' At one point Parker himself was wearing 7 than 8 stripes. He never wore stripes before 7th. The 5 inch 'bar' looked better and made it distinctive to Ed Parker Kenpo-Karate. Traditional Chinese colors are red & black. The belt was black so ...

Actually the 5 inch bar was arbitrary to coincide with the 5th rank. The stripes were only a half inch wide so consolidating the stripes should have been 2 1/2 inches instead of 5. Even if you add the spaces in between back in, its still only comes to 4 1/2 inches. But everyone thought it looked cool, and everyone wanted to wear that 'bar.' Wait, everyone did sooner or later.


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## Michael Billings (May 23, 2006)

He got his "brick" was what I heard.

-Michael


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## Carol (May 25, 2006)

Interesting!

Has it remained exclusive to EPAK or has it migrated to other arts?


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## green meanie (May 25, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Interesting!
> 
> Has it remained exclusive to EPAK or has it migrated to other arts?


 
I think it's still just an EPAK thing. I could be wrong but I haven't seen anyone else adopt this idea yet.


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## Michael Billings (May 25, 2006)

I have seen belts that are made with a different colors at the end, for the soke or higher Professor belts.  But nothing like the Kenpo Brick or double brick yet.

-Michael


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## Carol (May 29, 2006)

Thanks so much Denny, Mr. Billings.   :asian:


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## IWishToLearn (Jun 1, 2006)

Good information here.


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## RichK (Jun 8, 2006)

Mr. Billings, I have seen that Eric Lamkin sells them.


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## Sigung86 (Jun 8, 2006)

Interestingly, coming from the Tracy side of the thang... We, too, wore the belt of many stripes.  Then Tracy went to a policy of belt with no rank on it, only kanji for spirit of the tiger and dragon on one side, and kanji for kenpo karate on the other.  

I, personally, now having gone independent, like the brick.


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## Carol (Jun 8, 2006)

Mr. Farmer, 

Before I decided to stat Kenpo I had the good fortune of meeting a couple of Tracy bb's that were more than happy to let me pick their brains for a bit. 

If you don't mind me asking out of sheer curiosity...why was the "no rank" policy established in Tracy schools and...if you don't mind sharing...why do you personally like the brick?  

Thanks very much,
Carol


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## Sigung86 (Jun 8, 2006)

Hello Ms. Kaur,

I am sure that my reply is going to be somewhat stilted/slanted and may incurr postings of wrath and anger from other Tracy folks... Or perhaps, they will set the record straight.  However ...

It appeared, at the time, to be a problem with Master Tracy not wanting to be in competition, as it were, with the EPAK folks.  It was kind of a "Let 'em guess what rank you are" kind of thing.  And so he came out with that.  On the other hand, as I no longer am afiliated with Tracy's and do not go to many of their schools, I am really not sure what the majority of folks did.  I did order one of the belts and it is really kind of cool, but ...

I like the bar for the following reason.  A number of years ago, after we had a parting of the ways, Master Tracy, some of his folks, and myself), and I was told to go do my own thing,  my students all got together and created a very nice certificate for 9th degree Black.  They realized that I would never go to the extent of proclaiming myself a great grand 10th degree whozeewhazit, and so they went for the 9th.  After 40 some years in Kenpo, TKD, and numerous systems of Chinese Martial Arts, I took the certificate... Thanked them, and went on with what I am doing.  It is called *Dynamic Kenpo Concepts* and is an admixture of much of what I have learned over the years from the Tracy School, mixed with a number of Chinese technical and philosophical implications, up to and including a number of "scientific" concepts that I have gleaned from the brain of the Mad Kenpo Scientist (no names mentioned, but his initials are Doc)  :supcool:.

The main reason I like the brick is that prior to the parting of the ways, I wore a belt with a large number of the little quarter inch stripes on it... Or I wore simply a Black Belt... It's all the same to me, and often I train the students with no belt on, and have been known, when a student shows a particular bit of enlightenment, to put my Black belt around his or her waist for the duration of the class ... But I digress... At the time that my students gave me the very nice certificiate, they also gave me a Black Belt that had  one five inch brick, 3 red quarter inch stripes, and one white quarter inch stripe, that indicated that, in the end,  it all goes back to the basics.

I wear the belt proudly, and over the years, have, simply, become enamored of the red brick.  

Sorry... But when I write I tend to prattle on and hope that I have answered your question.

Thanks for asking, and by the way... Please feel free to address me as Dan.

Dan. :ultracool


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## Carol (Jun 8, 2006)

Thank you very much Dan, and I must request the same...for you to address me as Carol.

:asian: :asian: :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 9, 2006)

Doc said:


> Once students began to 'attain' significant rank, all the stripes looked 'tacky.' At one point Parker himself was wearing 7 than 8 stripes. He never wore stripes before 7th. The 5 inch 'bar' looked better and made it distinctive to Ed Parker Kenpo-Karate.  The 5 inch bar was arbitrary to coincide with the 5th rank.




The history of our "American Kenpo Belt stripe designations" is an  interesting one for sure.  'Early on'... the *Black* Belt was so rare that  designations were unnecessary.   In addition, at that time visible degree  designation was considered arrogant, your skill is what set you apart in  the class.... (my how times have changed LOL). 

During the early 60's,  our infant art was now mingling with the dominant Japanese disciplines  (fortified with strong traditions) in open events such as  tournaments and  demonstrations.  Ed Parker realized and wanted to develop a different  distinctive perspective on _*HIS*_ Art and create an obvious variance  from the Japanese systems.  

The growing development of the commercial  studio also forged a need to be able to further designate the infra structure.   The question would come up....... "what level of black are you" which then  spawned the visible designations.  Also, as our Art progressed Mr. Parker wanted  the world to realize that we (His American Kenpo System) had advanced rankings  so the visible "stripes" showed senior advancement of American Kenpo Instructors  to the public and competitors.

The Advanced Belt (Black) has several  different designations.... Black, Black with stripes (various colors ... white,  yellow, red, blue, etc.) Half White Belt Half Red, Red Belt, Alternating White  and Red Sections and many many other variations designation different levels of  rank.

Stripes were the first and natural evolution of rank from a  straight black Belt and the 1/2 inch stripe was used as the appropriate size of  stripe.  Red was the traditional color representing professorship or senior  teacher status.   The row of 7 or 8 stripes was very accepted for a few years  and served its purpose very well, but as usual, Kenpo Ingenuity kicks in and Tom  Kelly came up with the thought of a real distinctive difference in rank the 5  inch (for 5 degrees) solid Bar followed by the traditional stripes then  eventually a 2nd Bar if anyone would attain that (which at the time no one did  except that Ed Parker would eventually wear them) boy were they wrong!!   

Mr. Parker liked the idea and tried it, ......well we  know the outcome.  It has been our original distinctive idea ever since and so  far, not copied (and I hope it stays exclusive to us).  

​ 
So there is a  slight expanded perspective of history for ya's. 
 :asian:


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## Doc (Sep 9, 2006)

Goldendragon7 said:


> The history of our "American Kenpo Belt stripe designations" is an  interesting one for sure.  'Early on'... the *Black* Belt was so rare that  designations were unnecessary.   In addition, at that time visible degree  designation was considered arrogant, your skill is what set you apart in  the class.... (my how times have changed LOL).
> 
> During the early 60's,  our infant art was now mingling with the dominant Japanese disciplines  (fortified with strong traditions) in open events such as  tournaments and  demonstrations.  Ed Parker realized and wanted to develop a different  distinctive perspective on _*HIS*_ Art and create an obvious variance  from the Japanese systems.
> 
> ...



That's what I said.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 10, 2006)

Just for reference, I found a couple different suppliers of said style belts.

The IKCA
http://karateconnection.com/blackbelts.html

Kenpobelts.com
http://www.kenpobelts.com/catalog/

Couldn't find the reference to where Eric Lamkin sells them tho.


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Dec 13, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> Just for reference, I found a couple different suppliers of said style belts.


 
This is an old thread but...

...at the GOE's (2007) Al was wearing a black belt with 10 gold stripes on it....

...and many years ago he was using the "no-stripe", "no-brick" ranking system that others talked about here.

So things do change with time.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 25, 2007)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> So things do change with time.



Yes....... My Belt with 3 bricks will, I'm sure turn a few heads....


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## Doc (Dec 25, 2007)

Goldendragon7 said:


> Yes....... My Belt with 3 bricks will, I'm sure turn a few heads....


4 bricks if you count the one I'm gonna hit you in your head with.


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## IWishToLearn (Dec 26, 2007)

Doc said:


> 4 bricks if you count the one I'm gonna hit you in your head with.




ROFL

Merry XMas Dragon & Doc


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 26, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> ROFL
> 
> Merry XMas Dragon & Doc



Thanks,,,,, same to you!

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Doc said:


> 4 bricks if you count the one I'm gonna hit you in your head with.



LOL....... so do I detect a tint of jealousy here....  hee hee


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