# Perseverance and Indomitable Spirit



## Laurentkd (Oct 16, 2007)

I assume many users here use the "5 tenants of Taekwondo" (courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, indomitable spirit).  I always have a hard time finding a way to define indomitable spirit in a way that is different than perseverance.  I end up discussing and giving examples for about 5 minutes, which is good but I would love to have a simple quick definition of them that makes them easy to understand and to differentiate.
What do you tell your students? 
Basically I tell them that perseverance is continuing when something is hard and you want to quit, (sort of a one time thing, like doing 500 kicks). Indomitable spirit is a winning spirit. Positive thinking about how you CAN succeed, and even when you have failed at something you continue to try and try again until you get it (more of a long term mind set, like studying in school every day all year).
But even I don't really like this definition; I don't feel it REALLY makes them two separate entities.
Thoughts?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 16, 2007)

I think you've actually gotten pretty close there, *Lauren*.  

Perseverence is just that; sticking at something and not quiting.  The application of will to reach a goal.

Indomitable Spirit is not giving in when things go against you.  The application of will to overcome failure.

In essence, one is determination and the other is resilience.


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## matt.m (Oct 16, 2007)

Not bad, here is the way I tell the kids......perserverence is like patience in the aspect that if you train hard a wait then you will accomplish the goal.  

Indomitable spirit.....well I tell them a story of being overwhelmed in combat while in the Marines.  I was the sergeant and my troops needed leadership, so with selfless determination I accomplished my goal.

If I knew that I gave up then people would have been hurt, I didn't want that too happen.


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2007)

I think too that indomitable spirit is probably too having a sense of humour and cheerfulness (though not to the point of people wanting to throttle you for it lol) under extreme conditions when everyone is down and can't face trying one more time. It is the will to persevere.

Indomitable spirit is a bunch of Royal Marines under heavy Taliban fire in the badlands of Afghanistan arguing among themselves about what video to watch when they got back to base!

Star Wars won and they all got back safely.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 16, 2007)

Right.  The way I see it is the same.  Perseverence means that you persist, you continue, no matter how you "feel" about keeping on with the task.

Now, INDOMITABLE SPIRIT, this means that you will not give up.  My Teacher once told us that a righteous man gets knocked down 7 times but rises back up.

You see, INDOMITABLE SPIRIT means that if you somehow fail, that you will get back into the fight and resume.  You do not just throw in the towel if you experience a setback, you see.


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## jim777 (Oct 16, 2007)

Perseverence is fighting to get something you might actually attain through hard work, like a college degree. If you persevere there can be a payoff and completion of your goal.

Indomitable spirit is fighting for something you might NEVER achieve, like fighting to feed the  world's poor and fighting injustice. It's something you do because it is right to do it; you don't do it for a pay off as the fight IS the payoff.

(or something....)

jim


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## newGuy12 (Oct 16, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> *and even when you have failed at something you continue to try and try again until you get it* .



Yes, this is *precisely* what the INDOMITABLE SPIRIT means, to my understanding of it!


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## Nomad (Oct 16, 2007)

Perseverance is to keep training.  Through good and bad times, when you're bored or wondering why you're doing it, or when you're just not getting a technique or kata.... patiently continuing, knowing you are making progress, even if it's not visible from the inside.

Indomitable Spirit is getting knocked down 7 times and getting back up to fight 8.  It is trying to kick, punch, bite, scratch, or eye gouge an attacker _while_ you're being thrown around.  You can be beaten, but never defeated.


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## Kacey (Oct 16, 2007)

I agree with the above.  The definitions I use (after a significant discussion about both concepts) are that perseverance is giving up when you want to quit (e.g. going on when tired), while indomitable spirit is going on when you think it won't do any good, because it is the right thing to do (e.g. the Battle of Little Big Horn, Custer's Last Stand, and similar stories of desperate last stands).


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 16, 2007)

Perseverance and Indomitable Spirit.  Very important concepts in the martial arts.

It is only through perseverance that we acquire our skills and then hone them.  As they say, "If at first you don't suceed, try, try, try again."

Indomitable Spirit is something less easy to understand but easy to see.  It is the Spartans at Thermopylae, it is Horatio on the bridge, it is the 20th Maine's defence of Little Round Top at Gettysburg.  It is knowing that the task must be done regardless of the personal risk.  It is truly something to aspire to.

Perseverance and Indomitable Spirit are warrior virtues that we all seek.


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## Just4Kicks (Oct 18, 2007)

Indominable spirit to represents not only the physical battles, but the mental, emotional and spiritual. An indominable spirit will not break, it will not conform, no matter what happens. The vissitudes of life are not obstacles, they are chances for you to test your spirit and prevail.

Perserverence is endurance, but it doesn't necessarily define it as indominable spirit can. Perserverence is merely endurence; there is nothing on your essence.


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## TKDmel (Oct 19, 2007)

My master told me once after my first "Nationals" that I showed indominable spirit by my attitude after losing very badly in the second round of sparring. I told him I loved the experience and learned much to take with me from the experience. I guess its like that. Seeing the good or positive and not the negative. Taking adversity and turning it into an advantage, and the glass is half full always.


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## lady fighter (Oct 23, 2007)

*To my students, I've always tried to explain Perseverance = To Never Give Up!! Always do your best to overcome obstacles!  Indomitable Spirit = To have Unbreakable Spirit!!  Never allow anyone or anything to Break your Spirit!*


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## stone_dragone (Oct 23, 2007)

To me, Indomitable Spirit is a requirement of Perseverance. 

Perseverance is to continue when things get tough and knock you down.

Indomitable Spirit is getting knocked down 10 times and getting up eleven.

Perseverance is training for that ultimate goal.

Indomitable Spirit is the willingness to die in the achieving of that goal.

My .02


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## Bret Hinds (Oct 24, 2007)

When I explain this I  first look to the age of my student, I talk to my students by asking them a question. What do you do when you first come home from school? Chores, home work ,etc. do you jump on them and get them done or do you wait? then  I ask them why? You get them done not because you want to but because it is the right thing to do. like the comidian said getter done! that is a one from of perseverance. The road runner cartoons are a different example of Indomitable spirit, the coyote could have bought his dinner instead of spending time and effort trying to get the road runner,ACME must have a great credit line! Ha Ha. But instead the coyote is going after his dream of getting the road runner, by keep trying and not giving up. When talking to adults I explain about the ideas of planning battles and how they apply to your fighting styles by pushing your oppent when they are weak and putting a pushing attack on a weaker defense.Dave Lowry in his writings talk a great deal about the mind set of the martial artist. But hey what do I know . All the best in the arts


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