# Ki/Chi/Qi VS "Magic"



## GeorgeWOE (Aug 29, 2012)

How about making two lists which will have things that you are able to do with Ki and things 
that you aren't?

Let me start the list and you can add yours:

*
With Ki/Chi/Qi

*_You can:

_1)use it for healing and medicine._You can't:

_1)fly...


Add yours for both lists:lurk:

By George


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## GeorgeWOE (Aug 29, 2012)

*With Ki/Chi/Qi

*_You can:

_1)use it for healing and medicine._

You can't:

_1)fly...
2)do anything that is relted to the stuff in the anime called Dragonball

Add yours for both lists:lurk:

By George


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## Gnarlie (Aug 29, 2012)

You can:

1)use it for healing and medicine.
2) describe the co-ordination of physical force vectors in the human body, and their combination with emotional attitute
3) describe focus
4) help describe meridians and the relationship between nerve centres and pressure points on the human body.  Although this is possible without chi. 
5) create misleading mystique surrounding very ordinary occurrences governed by normal physical principles

You can't:

1)fly...
2)do anything that is relted to the stuff in the anime called Dragonball
3) transmit power through the air except by creating wind or sound
4) influence the balance / wellness of another person without physical contact
5) make someone's head explode a la 'Scanners'
6) create external manifestations of your own chi without physical contact
7) defy the laws of physics

Gnarlie


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## oaktree (Aug 29, 2012)

Here is _just about_ every word that uses the hanzi with Qi &#27668;
http://www.cojak.org/index.php?term=%E6%B0%94&function=character_lookup
 So you can see that the term Qi is very vague and when combined with other words can mean alot of different things depending on combined words and context.
  Which iswhy *IF *there had to be one English word to describe the hundreds of meanings Qi could then energy would be the best fit in my opinion.

The term &#39533;&#27668; means to fly magically in the air. It uses the same hanzi  Qi&#27668;&#12290; It is used to talk about folklore involving Daoism.
  So yes Qi does have to do with magically flying however, *it is in the realm of folklore*. 
In order to talk about zhongwen &#20013;&#25991; you need to understand zhongwen &#20013;&#25991;&#12290;

Alot of the magic,astral projection, Dragon ball Z, is religious, superstition, folklore and movie entertainment in China.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 29, 2012)

Strong Qi you can be healthy
Weak Qi you can be sick
No Qi you can be dead

Qi can't knock someone down without touching them


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## GeorgeWOE (Aug 29, 2012)

Here are some videos that Qi Gong "masters" claim that )they can do.What do you think?

1) 




2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOSkqGUK-M&feature=my_favorites&list=FLOOkIFBNumzP_wtucxAvqDA

3)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teNzosjeKZ0&feature=my_favorites&list=FLOOkIFBNumzP_wtucxAvqDA

By George


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## Gnarlie (Aug 29, 2012)

1)  An example of what can happen when you combine genuine physical skills, stooges, highly suggestible marks, the right kind of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo and cheap technology to give the illusion of one thing happening when actually it's something else entirely.  Try watching some Derren Brown. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WnZkzjweCE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

2) Again a combination of mumbo jumbo and physical principles.  The dummy test is irrelevant as the actual subject was not hit as hard, and the amount of force transferred depends on how far along the bat the contact is made.  In the actual hit it's so close to the handle that anyone with decent conditioning and footwork could take that hit.  In fact I'd say most full contact kickers take worse at most training sessions.  The dummy and the 'scientists' in this show are just there as convincers.  The short bat principle also applies to the wood across the back.  The wood breaks only due to the momentum of the free end.  The spear to the throat can be achieved through solely physical training too, nothing to do with chi - the thin layer covering the oesophagus area can be stretched to incredible tension when properly trained, making it strong versus a pushing force.  Versus a stab, the story would be very different.   These are all parlour tricks. 

3) Utter nonsense.  How exactly does electromagnetism affect a plastic straw, again?  Bad science followed by a cheap illusion I can replicate using invisible thread for 50 cents.   Wonder why it's so dark in the room when he's filming a video.  You'd think he would want us to see what he can do.  Come to think of it, it's pretty dark in a lot of these chi videos on Youtube.  And there are a lot of tablecloths, unproven random assistants, and testimonies from 'friends' or 'students'.  There are even a few vids of chi 'masters' entering full contact and getting their clocks cleaned.  What does that tell you?

Apologies for living so relentlessly in the real world George, but I'm not seeing anything here that doesn't scream fake jake.  I'd like to believe that this is some kind of supernatural power, but it's just so clearly not that any sane and rational person has to reject that idea. 

*Addition: Derren Brown recreates a no contact chi punch scenario.   He does not profess to have any supernatural powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmVfHZgHMUk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Gnarlie


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2012)

I watched a 'no touch' KO at a seminar I was at, I have to admit it nearly did me a mischief... I had to hold in my laughter until I could get to the ladies loo where I just cracked up laughing almost hysterically. It wasn't even the 'KO' so much as the guy's helpers rushing to aid the uke and restore him to 'conciousness'. Of course the guy doing it didn't ask for volunteers because in his words 'it would have been too dangerous' to use anyone other than his students. I did wonder whether they really believed in it or saw what I saw.


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## WC_lun (Aug 30, 2012)

I've studied CMA for well over two decades.  After a while I came to accept that chi exsist and in times of stress it can help augment a person's own defences, to a degree, usually by being able to clearly see intent.  In my opinion it can bolster an immune system as well. However, it is a two sided sword.  Those that train exclusively focused on "chi" and "magic powers" it will give you are deluded and ultimately disapointed.  Much better to focus on the physical skills where you can see a measureable improvement and a heavy reliance on physics and human anatomy.  Those base skills you learn and improve will unlock chi as it is neccesary for use.  Without those base physical skills, you wouldn't be able to use chi even if you'd meditated for two weeks prior.  Chi is a physical thing and as such if you do not deligently train in the physical realm, you will be playing a fantasy and one that will get you hurt if it comes to a confrontation.

Chi isn't going to give you super powers.  If you are really stabbed in the throat with a spear, you are screwed.  Cut by a knife, you will bleed.  Try to fly and you will fall down.  Try to shoot lightening out of your fingertips and laughter will ring in your ears.

There are also much better places to feel and gain chi that martial arts practice.  Places such as church, synagague, out in nature, with family, etc.  If you are focusing on the chi as a martial superpower, stop.  It is training you will never complete to your satisfaction. Real life is rarely as vibrant as the desires in fantasy life.


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## GeorgeWOE (Aug 30, 2012)

Just out of curiosity.How much have you spent on this subject?
Because you like a person that knows what happens there and when...


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I watched a 'no touch' KO at a seminar I was at, I have to admit it nearly did me a mischief... I had to hold in my laughter until I could get to the ladies loo where I just cracked up laughing almost hysterically. It wasn't even the 'KO' so much as the guy's helpers rushing to aid the uke and restore him to 'conciousness'. Of course the guy doing it didn't ask for volunteers because in his words 'it would have been too dangerous' to use anyone other than his students. I did wonder whether they really believed in it or saw what I saw.




the person doing the 'no touch' KO has done one thing quite well..... taught his students to fall well... on que.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 30, 2012)

GeorgeWOE said:


> Here are some videos that Qi Gong "masters" claim that )they can do.What do you think?
> 
> 1)
> 
> ...



Last I knew, and we are going back about 5 years, the BeijingUniversity of Traditional Chinese Medicine was working on a way to measure Qiinternally but had not yet developed a device to do it. They said external qiis easy to prove (see your posted video of guys having thing broken on them)however they said that at that point anyone telling you they had great powersof internal qi they could project were....well....fake.

The did not say qi was fake, just the guys out there showing you their incredible powers of qi by burning paper and knocking other people down without touching them.

However my Taiji sifu has seen the paper burning thing first hand back in Hong Kong and he cannot explain how it was done. He is not saying it is real&#8230; but he is not saying it is fake either


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## Gnarlie (Aug 30, 2012)

I won't deny that there are people in the world who believe they have seen these things.  But what one believes one has seen and what one has actually seen are often two very different things.  This is especially true when that thing is presented to us by another human being(s). Regarding the fire thing, there are certainly a couple of alternatives:

1) The chi practitioner is able to generate a force as yet unmeasureable using modern scientific technology and methods.  He is then able to transmit this undetectable force through the air in such quantity and intensity that it will heat paper to beyond it's combustion point.  No mean feat. 

Or

2) The 'chi practitioner' has access to chemicals which slowly combust on contact with specific other substances.  As the 'chi practitioner' crumples the paper, he slips in the chemical using purely physical sleight of hand skills he's learned during the time he told everyone he was meditating.  Easy, and convinces people that he might be able to kill them with a thought. 

Looking at this from the point of view of one of my hobbies, sleight of hand and (conjuring)  magic, I know which one my money is on. 

How are we still falling for these tricks?  There's nothing in these clips that can't be replicated by other means.  Including bribery. 

Gnarlie


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## WC_lun (Aug 30, 2012)

The energy requird to light a piece of paper without direct contact would be pretty darn high.  As Gnarlie says, my money would be on the slight of hand.


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## dcsma (Aug 31, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> You can:
> 
> 2) describe the co-ordination of physical force vectors in the human body, and their combination with emotional attitute
> 
> ...



Come again ???? You lost me after describe


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## Gnarlie (Aug 31, 2012)

Co-ordination of the timing and direction of forces in your body e.g. Hip, shoulder, arm, fist twist. 

Vector mechanics describes the mathematics behind the motion. 

Gnarlie


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## colemcm (Nov 11, 2012)

I once had a guy demonstrate chi powers on me.  He took my right arm in his left hand, then struck me on the inner arm with his index and middle finger.  Nothing happened, so he told me to wait for it. . . Still nothing happened. . . So he told me my chi was too strong.  

As far as the OPs purpose for this thread, I think it's been covered.


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## cloud dancing (Dec 29, 2014)

DID he say all internal arts are total bs?? so any art that uses CHI IS FAKE??? TAI-CHI/PA QUA/HSING I CHUAN/ AIKIDO/HAPKIDO/ etc are all FAKE AND WE SHOULD INSTEAD "GO TO CHURCH" wowee
good golly Miss Molly you sure do like to -No boy wonder!! Batman will fix, that not you!!!!
enter laughter> exit arrogance.>stage left_____ --. Light shines and darkness leaves.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 15, 2015)

GeorgeWOE said:


> How about making two lists which will have things that you are able to do with Ki and things
> that you aren't?
> 
> Let me start the list and you can add yours:
> ...



Some of the martial arts schools that advertise that they teach ancient techniques of harnessing Ki, considering the prices they charge, I had better be able to fly after taking the lessons.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some of the martial arts schools that advertise that they teach ancient techniques of harnessing Ki, considering the prices they charge, I had better be able to fly after taking the lessons.



You'll need a magic sword before you can do that...

But you should probably be able to stop an armed robber with just a glare. We actually had a poster who claimed to have done so...


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You'll need a magic sword before you can do that...
> 
> But you should probably be able to stop an armed robber with just a glare. We actually had a poster who claimed to have done so...



Yeah well tell me he wouldn't stop you too


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm so much better with physics than .... well than this.


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