# Bowing: eyes up or down?



## Rough Rider (Nov 6, 2015)

I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.

I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing.  One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful.  The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow.  Thoughts?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

Rough Rider said:


> I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.
> 
> I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing.  One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful.  The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow.  Thoughts?


When I took karate more than 30 years ago. I was taught to bow with eyes up, always looking at the opponent just in case the opponent is not as "honorable as me."


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 6, 2015)

Rough Rider said:


> I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.
> 
> I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing.  One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful.  The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow.  Thoughts?



From what I have been told by my instructor (who is himself  of Japanese and American origin and was born in Japan), bowing in martial arts is no different from bowing to in general.  Nothing to do with fighting or karate in general terms, it just happens that many karate students not in cultures that bow come in contact with the concept through martial arts study.

The eyes are down.  Typically one looks at the floor about 3/4 of the way to the person to whom they are bowing.

When the bow is between a student and teacher, the student bows more deeply and holds the bow until the teacher lifts up from the bowing position.

The Japanese word used in our dojo is 'rei', which indicates one should bow; I am told it means 'respect'.  Karate, I have been taught, begins and ends with respect.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> From what I have been told by my instructor (who is himself  of Japanese and American origin and was born in Japan), bowing in martial arts is no different from bowing to in general.  Nothing to do with fighting or karate in general terms, it just happens that many karate students not in cultures that bow come in contact with the concept through martial arts study.
> 
> The eyes are down.  Typically one looks at the floor about 3/4 of the way to the person to whom they are bowing.
> 
> ...


I heard of this for bowing outside of martial arts but it's the first time I've heard it applying to martial arts.  I guess I learned something new.


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## kuniggety (Nov 6, 2015)

To note: the Japanese do not typically look each other in the eyes as we do in our Western culture. It is seen to be direct and can be rude or confrontational. This is not just in Japan though. As a Westen man, I've made many Asian women blush by my looking at them directly in the eyes when talking to them. It's just a cultural difference. If you're looking at a person while bowing, it's not the Japanese way and simply is not the respectful way to bow.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

I went back and took a look at some sparring competitions from inside of Japan.  Some bowed as your described, some bowed as I described, and some didn't bow at all. It will be interesting to see what other say.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2015)

Eyes up cos James bond.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Eyes up cos James bond.


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## Human Makiwara (Nov 6, 2015)

Sensei tells us it's tradition for you to bow to teachers with eyes to the floor. Bow to partners or opponents with eyes up. During bunkai drills we must bow both ways. Kumite also requires both bows as well. 

In reality everyone does it different. Whatever your school prefers is what should be done. 

It seems to show the most respect you keep eyes down.


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## Balrog (Nov 6, 2015)

Rough Rider said:


> I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.
> 
> I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing.  One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful.  The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow.  Thoughts?


Eyes down, look at your toes.

That is the bow used in the family.  And your school is your family.  Looking at someone while bowing is disrespectful, a "You are my honored enemy and I don't trust you enough to take my eyes off you" sort of thing.


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## seasoned (Nov 6, 2015)

Eyes down = respect.
Eyes up = cautious respect


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## geezer (Nov 6, 2015)

If you are really ambivalent you can always bow with one eye up and the other down. 

In the arts I practice (not Japanese), we bow with our eyes on our opponent. Eyes down would indeed be more deferential.


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## Drose427 (Nov 6, 2015)

Our general rule:

General Bowing: Eyes Down

Bowing before any kind of sparring: Eyes Up


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## Danny T (Nov 7, 2015)

Different cultures, different bows. In the Chinese arts I practice when bowing we bow eyes up. In the FMA I practice we kneel on the right knee with eyes up. In the Thai art we 'wai' eyes up unless the person to whom the wai is for is of high importance to you or is of the Royal family then the wai is performed eyes averted downward.


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## Koshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

Wow. I was actually thinking about this today, and was considering posting a thread on here out of curiosity. In New England at least, there seems to be no consensus even among karate schools, let alone Japanese versus Korean versus Filipino versus Chinese. Many schools do the eyes up thing, some even speculating that eye contact demonstrates respect. And it does, in a more general context. In the USA.

My personal take, as a sweeping generalization of the interpretation of area schools, is that bowing is a symbol of respect, which you should strive to hold for everyone and treat everyone with, including your opponents and enemies, but that looking down is a symbol of trust, which can be separate from respect, and should be reserved for those that you are relatively sure are not about to wing you one. Personally, I figure anyone I'm bowing to is someone I've already decided is not imminently about to try to injure me.

Also, from what I recall of Elementary School mandatory Japanese class (aside from Kobayashi Sensei being an excellent teacher) was that the eyes should always look at your toes when bowing.

In many ways I think that, again in New England, many people seem to feel and convey more respect with a handshake or glove tap before sparring, than with a bow. It's just not part of our culture outside of our martial arts schools, and I think in many cases is more something associated specifically with whatever martial art, rather than with mutual respect, whereas the handshake is something which everyone grows up utilizing as a symbol of good will, good faith, respect, and a demonstration of character.

Bowing, in western culture, generally has fewer connotations related to mutual respect and humility, and more which are tied to power disparities, however historically or culturally inaccurate that may be. I know newer students and outside viewers often seem to assume the bowing is intended to demonstrate subordinance to and reverence for the instructor. Regardless of how incorrect this view may be, it's a hard lump to jam down many a Mainer's throat...

For my own part, I find more mutual respect from a grin and a fist bump. Again, none of this has any significance outside of the culture it's being practiced in. The martial art and accompanying social formalities may stem from Japan/Korea/China/Wherever else, but if it's being practiced in a school in Toronto, the culture of that school is probably the most relevant. That said, I remember a Japanese Karate team from Amori coming to visit years ago, and very politely correcting many of the local schools on various matters of butchered culture and pronunciation....

This may be somewhat the viewpoint of someone shaped by practicing a US take on a poorly understood Korean derivative of a somewhat better understood Japanese derivative of an Okinawan art with roots in China. Everything has been so twisted, mixed, bungled and bastardized at this point, that I suppose I lack a certain reverence for tradition. I'm not complaining about the warts, mind you. I just try to remain aware of them.

Point being, there's certainly a great deal to be said for studying the root culture of an art, learning the meanings and significance of traditions, etc, but when, say, I visit a Shaolin Kempo Karate school and they start telling me about the long history of their Pinan Forms, and discuss the long standing pre-class belt tying rules of who kneels and stands and when, I just go with it. When I go to a TKD school and they tell me how and when to bow and to who and why, and the pre-class formalities are in a bizarre mixture of Japanese and Korean, again, I just go with it. the words and formalities and mythologies may be inaccurate and with significance far from the original, but they have a meaning and significance in the culture of _that specific school_.

Just like I wouldn't bow to someone knocking on my door, just like I wouldn't shake the hand of a young Orthodox Jewish woman on meeting her, just like I wouldn't walk into someone's school, walk to the front of the class and shake hands with the instructor in the middle of class. When you're with a group of people, it's polite to do whatever it is that group of people think is polite, even if it seems silly. Even if that's bowing with eye contact and grunting "Osu" in affirmation every few sentences.


Pointless 3AM ramble concluded.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

I would just point out that my previous post is the "Japanese" point of view of bowing. I was in Thailand and, while watching a Muay Thai fight, watched a Japanese fighter win a fight. Instead of hugging his defeated opponent and offering a wai, he paraded around the arena. I thought it was flat out rude. Everyone has their own interpretations of what's acceptable. I find it funny though when you have Westerners adopting an Easten custom and then making excuses why they don't do it the same. Why bow in the first place then? It's not a Westen custom. In BJJ we tend to fist bump which is a Western thing even though it has Japaness origins. It makes sense... It's a Brazilian art now. I've rolled with Japanese BJJ dudes who will bow to me and I respectfully bow back because that's their cultural custom but it's not part of the art. Maybe it's because I've spent half my adult life living in far Eastern Asia but sometimes Westeners make no damn sense to me in their assimilation of Asian culture.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

Saying bowing is not a Western custom is inaccurate, until relatively recently it *was* the custom for men to bow and women curtsy on meeting each other. Think of the Prussians etc with the heel clicking and the stiff bow of the head. Bowing is still used in country dancing, the stage, orchestras etc. It's used in countries with royalty. It's also used in Judaism.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

But we don't anymore. It is quite gentlemanly to give a head nod but that is not the same as a bow. Bowing and curtsying are only used in the most formal of situations... Not daily life. Growing up in the US, there was never a single time that I bowed.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> But we don't anymore. It is quite gentlemanly to give a head nod but that is not the same as a bow. Bowing and curtsying are only used in the most formal of situations... Not daily life. Growing up in the US, there was never a single time that I bowed.




I just pointed out how many times a bow is used in modern life, actors, musicians, dancers etc even in school and amateur productions bow. I also said in countries with royalty as well as in Judaism. You can't say 'we don't bow anymore' when you mean you don't bow can you? Just because you don't think you do doesn't mean it's an obsolete custom. You also can't say you have never bowed and then that you bow in martial arts lol.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 7, 2015)

I was always taught to not take your eyes off your opponent even when bowing. Although you will not be doing any bowing in a self defense situation it is still a good habit to get into (keeping eyes on opponent that is).


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## Gnarlie (Nov 7, 2015)

I recently returned from Korea, having spent a lot of time in the company of Koreans. I specifically discussed this point with a number of the Koreans I met. In South Korea, when you bow, you bend the upper body forward, and the head forward. You do not maintain eye contact because it will be taken as a challenge / invitation to fight. If the intended target of the bow does not see the top of your head, you're not playing it safe. 

The depth of the bow depends on  the relationship between the people. I would have to bow deeply to prospective parents-in-law, for example, but a cursory head-bob may be enough for long- term peers. A respected elder may be bowed to deeply, and merely return an almost imperceptible nod without breaking eye contact. It is context dependent, but there is never eye contact during the bow when the relationship is equal or when respectful deference is required.

These general rules also apply to the Taekwondo structure. Age and experience are to be respected, and students should never maintain eye contact when bowing, even to their peers, as respect for all is paramount. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I would have to bow deeply to prospective parents-in-law



Mmm, how many prospective parents-in-law have you had?


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## Gnarlie (Nov 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Mmm, how many prospective parents-in-law have you had?



Just an example, I don't believe in marriage.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I just pointed out how many times a bow is used in modern life, actors, musicians, dancers etc even in school and amateur productions bow. I also said in countries with royalty as well as in Judaism. You can't say 'we don't bow anymore' when you mean you don't bow can you? Just because you don't think you do doesn't mean it's an obsolete custom. You also can't say you have never bowed and then that you bow in martial arts lol.



I think we're just talking apples and oranges. It's a custom reserved for special reasons not daily use. It's not a Western cultural custom to bow to a stranger. And that's what I meant when I said I never bowed. I never bowed in a Western cultural situation. In a martial arts setting it was in reverence to Eastern culture.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> I think we're just talking apples and oranges. It's a custom reserved for special reasons not daily use. It's not a Western cultural custom to bow to a stranger. And that's what I meant when I said I never bowed. I never bowed in a Western cultural situation. In a martial arts setting it was in reverence to Eastern culture.



Everyday bowing as a greeting has fallen out of use due to better hygiene and disease prevention ( that's why bowing and curtsying was the norm in the West btw), it's safe to shake hands and kiss cheeks. The custom of bowing though is common in the theatre, dance ( I curtsy and bow a lot in Scottish country dancing and yes quite often to strangers), barristers in court here don't shake hands they bow. It's also common in countries as I said that have a monarchy. Just because you haven't bowed it doesn't mean they rest of the world hasn't or doesn't.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2015)

To look someone directly in their eye is the same as challenging a person, but it only applies to those of the same sex, or a younger person looking at an older person.  The closest I get to a bow in my daily life is a head nod either up or down depending on where I am.  I don't mind doing gestures of respect because I don't want to offend people.  My culture is more flexible in terms of showing respect.  Don't stare me directly in the eye and don't try to give me an alpha male handshake and everything else is fine.  I'm not a fan of the cheek kisses.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> barristers in court here don't shake hands they bow. It's also common in countries as I said that have a monarchy. Just because you haven't bowed it doesn't mean they rest of the world hasn't or doesn't.



Maybe I'm just uncouth  I had to look up what a barrister was by the way... It's those wig wearing guys.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not a fan of the cheek kisses.



As a fellow Murikan, I think it's because we just didn't grow up with it.


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## geezer (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> As a fellow Murikan, I think it's because we just didn't grow up with it.



Wail, Ahmuh 'Mairkin too, and Ah see it kinda differnt.

I still nod my head in a nonverbal greeting to acquaintances when I pass them on the street or in a corridor. And what is a nod of recognition if not an attenuated bow?


BTW I work at a high school with a Latino (mainly Mexican American) population. I've noticed that older Anglos usually nod in acknowledgement or greeting by lowering the head while the Latinos give a short, crisp upward nod. Both maintain eye contact as is expected in our culture. I can nod bi-lingually!!


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> Wail, Ahmuh 'Mairkin too, and Ah see it kinda differnt.
> 
> I still nod my head in a nonverbal greeting to acquaintances when I pass them on the street or in a corridor. And what is a nod of recognition if not an attenuated bow?



That was in reference to the cheek kissing. I nod quite often too... Probably to the extreme because of me living in Asia for so long. It's just quite less formal than a full bow.


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## geezer (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> That was in reference to the cheek kissing. I nod quite often too... Probably to the extreme because of me living in Asia for so long. It's just quite less formal than a full bow.



Hey_ Kuniggety_, if people think bowing "correctly" is tough to do according to the varying cultural norms of countries where it is widely practiced, what about _handshakes?
_
I mean, have you ever noticed how oddly many people from bowing cultures shake hands? I learned a good American handshake from my Dad whenI was a little kid. Basically he taught me a man's handshake is direct and firm, without being overbearingly strong, typically one vertical shake,  at the most two, lasting about a second or so and accompanied by a direct look in the other person's eyes, etc. etc. There's really a lot of subtlety there, depending on your age, status, the social context and so forth. In fact a plain, old-school handshake can be just as complex as other cultures bowing customs.

That's why so many immigrants don't get it right. Here are a few examples. My auto mechanic is Vietnamese but has lived here with an Anglo-American stepfather since the 70s. He has very strong hands, yet still shakes hands with a limp wrist and lowered eyes. The stocky Mayan immigrant from Central America  who trimmed my trees last month had a very similar "soft" handshake. As did my old sifu who hated hand shaking, and felt it impolite when a seminar student introduced his young son who shook the master's hand like a perfect little gentleman. Sifu reprimanded the father and son saying, "That's just what the rude little street urchins do in Hong Kong. They come up to strangers, stick out their hand and say, _Ow ya doin mate?_ ...before trying to sell you something".

Now if doing a standard handshake isn't confusing enough, try keeping up with all the evolving _new_ ways of shaking hands, from high fives, "giving some skin", to fist bumps. I honestly suck at hipster handshaking. I tell my young students that I only do the "old white-guy handshake" and that's hard enough to get right. Or fist bumps. They're good. But then which is better? Horizontal fist or vertical? Wait, I believe we've already done a thread or two on that subject alone!


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

In West Africa where the Ebola epidemic has been raging people have stopped shaking hands completely, as I said before shaking hands is a relatively new thing which came as hygiene and health improved. It is though an old custom dating back to ancient Grecian times but when Europe began having great plagues bowing became the polite thing to do. However in polite society one wore gloves at all times which meant not shaking hands with a bare hand something the Queen doesn't do, you will nearly always see her in gloves. 
Around Europe you will still see people bowing, waiters at some establishments, men when kissing a lady's hand ( correctly -not actually touching the hand with the lips, it's symbolic) in official circles often a bow before presenting something, very like the bowing of the East.
In the UK barristers aren't the only ones who bow in court they, the solicitors and clerks also bow to the judge. In the House of Commons the Speaker bows when entering or leaving.


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## Buka (Nov 7, 2015)

When in someone elses dojo we do what their dojo protocol calls for. Always and without exception.

In our dojo - I catch you bow with your eyes down you'll be doing pushups until you puke.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

Tomorrow is Remembrance Sunday here in the UK, when we use a neck bow ( the military bow then salute) after laying our poppy wreaths even the Queen and Royal Family do. I will be tomorrow. It's customary as well to bow one's head for any silence for the dead. On Wednesday the 11th the country will halt at 1100hr for 2 mins when we bow our heads. Please don't say it's not a bow I will be offended I promise you.


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## Koshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

I think the take away is, _it depends completely on where and with whom you are.
_
A note on head nods. At least in New England, I think there's a definite split between the down nod and the up nod. The down nod is more like a bow, in that it's a relatively polite acknowledgement of another person, and if relatively cursory, still one hundred percent friendly and passive. I might down-nod to strangers, to elderly people, to just a cop that glanced over at me. 

The up nod is very much different. It has the same basic function of acknowledgment, but it's _far_ more aggressive. Instead of assuring the other person of your passivity and polite respect for one another, it has a variety of flavors depending on the situation, the jerkiness of the movement, your facial expression, your overall body language; ranging from a slightly cocky and overly assertive down-nod equivalent; all the way to an outright water-hole challenge of the other guy's machismo. I would never up nod when passing an elderly lady at the grocery store, in other words.

Even small regional changes can entail slight differences. About two years ago I moved to my current place in a pretty nice, solidly middle class area. In my previous area, young people pretty much always shook hands with the thumb webbing locked, and the fingers wrapped around the back of the other person hand, usually accompanied by a solid pat on the shoulder, a one armed hug, and sometimes followed with a peel-apart and fist bump. 

After moving here, all the young people naturally go for the formal business style handshake, even in low key social environments, resulting in a lot of awkward finger grappling when I was first meeting people. I assumed one handshake was the norm, they assumed a different one. And we're talking to cities 30 miles apart in the same state.

Once we get talking about the insulated little sub-communities that martial arts schools are, customs are just far too varied to make any sweeping decisions about how something should be done. Sure, one school bows out of deference to say, Japanese culture. Another bows to signify the supreme awesomeness of the instructor. Another bows to demonstrate mutual respect. Another doesn't bow. Another bows just 'cause, well, I dunno, it's just a thing we do.


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## donald1 (Nov 7, 2015)

Im sure every school has some opinion on this; if you are at their school and the instructor tells you which way to do it do it their way at their school. Yes you should trust your opponent but I still think you should look at your opponent. But I wont argue if the instructor says otherwise


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Another bows to signify the supreme awesomeness of the instructor



I wonder how I can persuade my student to do that bow? 

I must say though and I was thinking this before when reading your posts on other threads, I do enjoy what you write and how you write it.
Where I live there's no nods up or down, you are greeted universally with 'nar then'.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Tomorrow is Remembrance Sunday here in the UK, when we use a neck bow ( the military bow then salute) after laying our poppy wreaths even the Queen and Royal Family do. I will be tomorrow. It's customary as well to bow one's head for any silence for the dead. On Wednesday the 11th the country will halt at 1100hr for 2 mins when we bow our heads. Please don't say it's not a bow I will be offended I promise you.
> View attachment 19629



As you said, that's a bowing of the head... Not really a nod.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

geezer said:


> Hey_ Kuniggety_, if people think bowing "correctly" is tough to do according to the varying cultural norms of countries where it is widely practiced, what about _handshakes?_



On the subject of handshakes, I recall an incident from almost 2 years ago. I was in Washington, DC for some work with USSOCOM. I met a particular desk officer from the Dept of State. It was clammy and one of the most limp wristed hand shake I've ever had. A handshake tells volumes about a person. I was always raised for a handshake to be firm but not crushing as that's confrontational. I've hand shook with some Easterners and their handshakes tend to be soft but I just take that as part of their non-confrontational cultures.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> The up nod is very much different. It has the same basic function of acknowledgment, but it's _far_ more aggressive. Instead of assuring the other person of your passivity and polite respect for one another, it has a variety of flavors depending on the situation, the jerkiness of the movement, your facial expression, your overall body language; ranging from a slightly cocky and overly assertive down-nod equivalent; all the way to an outright water-hole challenge of the other guy's machismo. I would never up nod when passing an elderly lady at the grocery store, in other words.
> .



Even the head nod up is very regional and has to be read with the rest of the body language. It's very common among Pacific Islanders - Chamorro, Hawaiian, Filipino, etc. it's done with a smile and a "hey brah". Some gang banger in the US with a straight face does it and it's meant for intimidation. I've always been around Pacific Islanders (my wife is a Filipina and half of my old BJJ school was Chamorro) so I use the head nod a lot like them. That's more of a "what's up" while a nod down is "respect".


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> On the subject of handshakes, I recall an incident from almost 2 years ago. I was in Washington, DC for some work with USSOCOM. I met a particular desk officer from the Dept of State. It was clammy and one of the most limp wristed hand shake I've ever had. A handshake tells volumes about a person. I was always raised for a handshake to be firm but not crushing as that's confrontational. I've hand shook with some Easterners and their handshakes tend to be soft but I just take that as part of their non-confrontational cultures.




I think we tend to think a handshake _should_ say something about a person. That limp wristed clammy handshake may be merely because that person had RSI of the wrist or elbow besides that desk officer could be shaking hands with a hundred people a day, not a pleasant thought if they are all 'firm'. Politicians have been schooled on how to make their handshakes look right because of this very thing of handshakes supposingly meaning something and look at them!


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## Koshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Even the head nod up is very regional and has to be read with the rest of the body language...That's more of a "what's up" while a nod down is "respect".



It's actually not that different here, I don't think. A nod down is very definitely respectful, while the nod up _can_ be in an informal, "what's up" sort of way, but as you say, it's body language and facial expression dependent, and can be much more of a social challenge as well.

Carl Sagan wrote a book of his speculations on human psychology, entitled _The Serpents of Eden_. As a cosmologist, I think his knowledge of the subject is probably that of an interested layman, but his therefore largely unconventional ideas were pretty entertaining and thought provoking. I don't think he talked about the head-up nod, but I do remember a longish ramble about social groups in pack animals, lowering the head in submission and defense (as in dogs, wolves, primates, etc), to avoid a dominance battle, to maintain social peace, and the relationship with the variety of independently developed bows across the world, all of which seem to center around lowering the height of the head, generally the lower the higher the rank differential.

As I said, I don't _think_ he talked about head up nods, but from that view it's interesting to think of them as a bit of a reverse bow. If a bow is more or less related to demonstrating your respect for and in some respects submission to another individual, a head-up nod is somewhat of a denial that they are in any way above you. Which, I think, would explain its place as an extremely informal greeting among friends and equals, nearly a quiet, inoffensive assertion of dominance. In some ways making it more like a hand shake, which can certainly be an assertion of dominance for many, and a defense of position for many more. Which I personally like.

Not to say I don't bow in any situation where it is expected, and how is expected. Whatever a bow may signify in terms of respect, not to bow as called for when it's the norm is just plain disrespectful.


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## Koshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

On a side note, the only time I really believe I can truly tell anything meaningful about someone from a hand shake is when they clearly view it as an opportunity to demonstrate their impressive grip strength, and thus their absolute silverback status.


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I think we tend to think a handshake _should_ say something about a person. That limp wristed clammy handshake may be merely because that person had RSI of the wrist or elbow besides that desk officer could be shaking hands with a hundred people a day, not a pleasant thought if they are all 'firm'. Politicians have been schooled on how to make their handshakes look right because of this very thing of handshakes supposingly meaning something and look at them!



Trust me, it takes more than a handshake for me to build an impression of someone. There were other contributing factors.


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## Koshiki (Nov 7, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Trust me, it takes more than a handshake for me to build an impression of someone. There were other contributing factors.



Although I have this completely irrational loathing of the handshake wherein the other person cuts the grip short by pinch gripping gently on to your fingers, sort of in a kiss-the-ring kind of position, and then tugs up and down a few times.

I know some people do it to avoid jerks who want to play finger crushy-crunchy, but on the whole, it's just so unsatisfying!


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## Gnarlie (Nov 8, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Although I have this completely irrational loathing of the handshake wherein the other person cuts the grip short by pinch gripping gently on to your fingers, sort of in a kiss-the-ring kind of position, and then tugs up and down a few times.
> 
> I know some people do it to avoid jerks who want to play finger crushy-crunchy, but on the whole, it's just so unsatisfying!


I demand a do-over. It's the only way these wet-fishers will learn. [emoji14]

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Trust me, it takes more than a handshake for me to build an impression of someone. There were other contributing factors.




Thing is you are talking men to men handshakes, men shake hands with women completely differently! I've had the bone crushers too, the easiest thing is to move your first two fingers to go up  his wrist and that stops the 'crush. My instructor taught me that and it works too.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Thing is you are talking men to men handshakes, men shake hands with women completely differently! I've had the bone crushers too, the easiest thing is to move your first two fingers to go up  his wrist and that stops the 'crush. My instructor taught me that and it works too.



That or carry around a fake mannequin hand and slap that in there at the last second.

I actually threw a job interview once because of the way the interviewer wet fished me on arrival. I am against hand crushing, but the other extreme is nauseating. A totally dead, cold set of fingers, no life or warmth at all, accompanied by an insipid thin lipped fake smile using only the mouth and not the eyes. A handshake says a lot about how someone values the interaction. Couldn't face working for someone like that, she would have been my new boss. First impressions count both ways.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 8, 2015)

I don't get this "don't trust your opponent so don't lower your eyes stuff."

If you are competing in an environment where bows are employed, there are also rules. Your opponent is not going to attack while you are bowing. 

And frankly, if you do not respect your opponent and trust him or her to follow the rules of the match, bow out and go home.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 8, 2015)

I agree Bill Mattocks, the 'never take you eyes off your opponent' meme has been around as long as I can remember. I think it might have started with Kung Fu movies, possibly a Bruce Lee line, and so many people still believe it.

If you are involved in a pre-agreed sport fight with rules, there is no reason not to think that your opponent will attack you during your bow. If you are in an actual fight where you cannot trust your opponent, then you won't be bowing anyway. The whole keeping eye contact idea is hogwash to me if it is based on mistrust rather than cultural convention.


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't get this "don't trust your opponent so don't lower your eyes stuff."
> 
> If you are competing in an environment where bows are employed, there are also rules. Your opponent is not going to attack while you are bowing.
> 
> And frankly, if you do not respect your opponent and trust him or her to follow the rules of the match, bow out and go home.



It's a cultural practice particular to our style, all part of the "defend yourself at all times" mentality.
It really doesn't have anything to do with trust, just tactics.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 8, 2015)

Buka said:


> It's a cultural practice particular to our style, all part of the "defend yourself at all times" mentality.
> It really doesn't have anything to do with trust, just tactics.


 I would not question the cultere of the system you practice, but it seems to me that in such situations, bowing should then be completely dispensed with.

I suppose something may have been lost or conflated as tournament point sparring has intermingled with traditional dojo kumite as training.

From my point of view, sparring in the dojo is a teaching-learning give and take that has nothing to do with winning or losing. We hone each other by honestly applying techniques on each other to both test our grasp of the technique as well as to give our partner the opportunity to apply their defense of it, and so on. Why would we not bow with our eyes down, it is an opportunity to show our respect for our partner's willingness to assist us in our improvement?

The thought of not trusting a fellow karateka not to attack us seems alien to me.


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I would not question the cultere of the system you practice, but it seems to me that in such situations, bowing should then be completely dispensed with.
> 
> I suppose something may have been lost or conflated as tournament point sparring has intermingled with traditional dojo kumite as training.
> 
> ...



Again, it has nothing to do with trust, just a tactical awareness practiced from day one.

The bow itself, is a sign of respect, but the smallest sign of respect. Respect comes from actions, from everything one does in and out of the dojo. In a dojo that uses a bow, everyone bows, they do not have the choice not to.

You say -
_"I would not question the cultere of the system you practice, but it seems to me that in such situations, bowing should then be completely dispensed with._"

Ah, but you did just question it, sir. 

And "_I suppose something may have been lost or conflated as tournament point sparring has intermingled with traditional dojo kumite as training."
_
You suppose wrong_. _And frankly, I find you a little too green to be supposing anything about we do, rookie.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 8, 2015)

Thank you for the reminder. You are quite right. Adios.


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2015)

Bill's posts always make me think. Deeply, more often than not.

You know what the most difficult part of being an instructor is? It's when a student dies. Yes, I know we are all heading there at the same rate, a day at a time, but if you teach long enough, sooner or later you'll lose a student. I've lost dozens over the decades, and it's always tough. Some from old age, some from disease, some by car or motorcycle accident, one was murdered in cold blood. (I was asked by his dad to give the eulogy, one of several eulogies over the years.)

The majority of my students have been of the Christian faith. Because the region we live has historically been Christian over the years. So there's usually a wake and a funeral. Back in the early seventies we lost a student to complications from pneumonia. At his wake, one of the students approached the casket and bowed. (before he kneeled at the altar and blessed himself.) The Aunt of the deceased later asked him why he bowed to her nephew. He said, "Because I love him very much, we've been bowing to each other for years and this is the last opportunity I have to honor him in that way." She cried and hugged him for a couple minutes.

We've been doing that for over forty years now. Same thing at the gravesight at the funeral. We don't do it as a group, we just do it. And when we do - our eyes are always front, never lowered. Because it is not a matter of trust, it's just the way we bow. It is our etiquette and protocol. _Ours_, nobody elses.


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## Paul_D (Nov 9, 2015)

If we bow eyes down we get told off.  We are told "eyes up", just in case ;-)


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 9, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> On a side note, the only time I really believe I can truly tell anything meaningful about someone from a hand shake is when they clearly view it as an opportunity to demonstrate their impressive grip strength, and thus their absolute silverback status.


Yeah, those type of handshakes are full of energy that screams, "I dominate you. Know your place."


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## Gnarlie (Nov 9, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah, those type of handshakes are full of energy that screams, "I dominate you. Know your place."


I strongly dislike it when people offer their hand palm down, forcing me to go palm up. A handshake should be vertical, and the palm down thing is just a power thing. Eugh. I have asked directly before 'are you wanting to shake my hand or are you offering your manicure for inspection?'

I don't like shoulder or forearm grabbers either, it always feels forced.

Oh and people who don't know when to stop.


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## Koshiki (Nov 9, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't like shoulder or forearm grabbers either, it always feels forced.



...Ulp. I _maaaay_ be somewhat of a shoulder grabber. Alternately a shake and hug combo, if i really like you...

Hand shake only is for when I'm uncomfortable, and therefore on my best behaviour.


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## Steve (Nov 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I strongly dislike it when people offer their hand palm down, forcing me to go palm up. A handshake should be vertical, and the palm down thing is just a power thing. Eugh. I have asked directly before 'are you wanting to shake my hand or are you offering your manicure for inspection?'
> 
> I don't like shoulder or forearm grabbers either, it always feels forced.
> 
> Oh and people who don't know when to stop.


Th shoulder grab is how I ensure you don't try to move in for an unwelcome hug.


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## Danny T (Nov 10, 2015)

For those firm hand shakers and haters of the soft hand. Most of my life I was one of you. With arthritis in my hands I am quickly becoming a two hand shaker. With two hands I can control the amount of pressure being applied by the other person. It is not just uncomfortable to shake hands it is down right painful. Take a hammer and smash your knuckles like you are driving a nail a couple of times and then shake hands. That is the closest I can come to explaining the feeling. Painful. Wedging your hand completely into the others and with your index and middle finger extended to the others wrist as Tez describes does help but is still quite painful for me so I have gone to using both hands to control the grip pressure.


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## Rough Rider (Nov 13, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I strongly dislike it when people offer their hand palm down, forcing me to go palm up.



I didn't even know that was something people did.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 13, 2015)

Rough Rider said:


> I didn't even know that was something people did.


I get it quite often. Depending on the offerer, I've even taken to just looking at their hand for an extended period and then just walking off without a word. I find that to be no less respectful than the palm down thing.


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2015)

Steve said:


> Th shoulder grab is how I ensure you don't try to move in for an unwelcome hug.



Ah, the wisdom of a BJJ practitioner. I like it. Now I'm going to steal the idea and use it as WC _anti-grappling!_


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I get it quite often. Depending on the offerer, I've even taken to just looking at their hand for an extended period and then just walking off without a word. I find that to be no less respectful than the palm down thing.



How rude. When they do that, you are supposed to kiss their ring!

http://www.timeslive.co.za/Feeds/Re..._630x400/MDF58513-05-03-2013-02-03-07-935.jpg


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## Kenpoguy123 (Nov 15, 2015)

Always look in the eyes. In any style they always say never take your eyes off your opponent so why would they contradict that rule. Screw trust you always need to know what the other person is doing. 

Also Bruce lee even said always look when you bow


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## Gnarlie (Nov 15, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> Always look in the eyes. In any style they always say never take your eyes off your opponent so why would they contradict that rule. Screw trust you always need to know what the other person is doing.
> 
> Also Bruce lee even said always look when you bow


Not true, at least for Taekwondo, the Korean norm is used, and that is eyes down. In fact, I am not aware of any East - Asian country that doesn't bow eyes down. China is different in that the bow is more from the shoulders than the waist, but the eyes are still down. 

Just because Bruce said it in Enter The Dragon, doesn't make it true. Kicks and punches make lovely melon-slap noises in that movie, but that doesn't happen  in real life.

People do things differently, and that's OK. But why adopt cultural aspects like bowing along with a traditional art, if you are not going to perform them in the way they are performed in the native country?

Some people here have given specific reasons in answer to this, and that's fine too. But why bother with a bow at all if you are not using an authentic one? Why not throw it out and use a high five or a fist bump instead?


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Just because Bruce said it in Enter The Dragon, doesn't make it true.



But but but he's *the* man 

I may stop shaking hands altogether after a meme turned up on my FB timeline the other day about handshakes. It basically said to remember every hand you've ever shaken has held a certain part of men's anatomy........... I'd post it here but of course it didn't phrase it that way roflmao.


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## Buka (Nov 15, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> People do things differently, and that's OK. But why adopt cultural aspects like bowing along with a traditional art, if you are not going to perform them in the way they are performed in the native country?
> 
> Some people here have given specific reasons in answer to this, and that's fine too. But why bother with a bow at all if you are not using an authentic one? Why not throw it out and use a high five or a fist bump instead?



The "native country" my style comes from is the USA. Our "authentic" bow is one with eyes up at all times.
Actually, as I just wrote this - I completely agree with you!


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## Gnarlie (Nov 15, 2015)

Buka said:


> The "native country" my style comes from is the USA. Our "authentic" bow is one with eyes up at all times.
> Actually, as I just wrote this - I completely agree with you!



Do you consider the bowing that your group does to be part of US culture? That's an interesting point.


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## Buka (Nov 15, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Do you consider the bowing that your group does to be part of US culture? That's an interesting point.



I don't know. Never actually thought about that before. (There you go again, Gnarlie, making me think. Basta!) 

We've been doing it that way for 45 years now. Just the way our Art has done it. I could no more bow with my eyes down than I could shut my eyes while driving a car down the freeway in traffic. Just could not.


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