# Shoulder injury



## Ceicei (Feb 17, 2012)

Just wondering how common is it for martial artists with shoulder injuries that end up requiring some form of surgical repair?

Ceicei


----------



## seasoned (Feb 18, 2012)

Shoulder injuries are very common, surgical repair is a personal choice. I tore my rotor cuff many years ago very badly, but decided against surgery. It did heal in time, and after 25 years I still need to watch how I use the shoulder at certain times, but all in all it is fine. I have talked to people that elected to have the repair done, and some are no better off. After seeing my doctor those many years ago, he gave me three choices, (1) surgery, (2) do nothing, (3) go home and rehab it myself. I did number (3), that was *my* personal choice............


----------



## Ceicei (Feb 19, 2012)

Well, my right shoulder now has been in fairly constant pain the past couple of months and gets dislocated fairly often, sometimes at inopportune moments.

I did go see a chiropractor, initially thinking at first (because of the pain) that it might be a pinched nerve.

He did fix my left shoulder that had a burning pain which differs from the sharp pain felt by my right.  Apparently my left was compensating for my right.  

It didn't take the chiropractor long to declare that my right shoulder most likely has a rotator cuff injury and there wasn't anything more he could do to help that shoulder--he cannot fix what is torn.  At the very least, he did succeed in reducing pain.

I have an appointment with a surgeon on March 7th and see what he says.

Ceicei


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (Feb 21, 2012)

Seeing a good surgeon is the right way to go. Back in 1996, while driving to work I was sideswiped by an 18-wheeler. Screwed up my shoulder something fierce. I tried to get it back in condition on my own, but no luck. The surgeon said that my shoulder wasn't broken the way a pencil would snap, rather it had compressed and splintered slightly. Every time I tried to use my arm, I was making it worse (he said). Surgery and rehab were a long, slow process, but better than losing the use of my arm altogether.
Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 21, 2012)

Ceicei said:


> Well, my right shoulder now has been in fairly constant pain the past couple of months and gets dislocated fairly often, sometimes at inopportune moments.
> 
> I did go see a chiropractor, initially thinking at first (because of the pain) that it might be a pinched nerve.
> 
> ...



It sounds like your chiropractor is smarter than some. I know of some who claim they can fix your gallstones with a spinal manipulation. Makes as much sense as me offering to fix your backpain by putting in a chest tube.

Shoulder injuries are really very common. If your shoulder has dislocated more than 3-4 times, you really do need to see a surgeon. Every time it dislocates, the joint will get looser. While this means it'll be easier for us to put it back, it also means it'll be easier for it to dislocate again. Which is lots of fun...
The first couple of times, rehab is an option. But from the sounds of what you've written, surgery to tighten the ligaments is really the only option you have.


----------



## decepticon (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm sure you've heard the old saying, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In my experience, the only answer you are likely to get from a surgeon is that you need surgery. And certainly in some cases, that is absolutely true and the very best treatment for the problem.

However, I tend to work from least invasive treatments up to the more invasive ones, to see if some lower level "cure" can fix the problem. By all means, talk with your surgeon. But you might also want to consider consulting with an experienced physical therapist who is familiar with sports injuries. Depending on exactly what is wrong in your particular case, it might be something that you could substantially improve by strengthening various muscles to help hold your shoulder in place better, which would allow it to heal more thoroughly.

In my experience, I have seen both outcomes; those where the damage could be healed through massage or physical therapy, and those where surgical removal of damaged tissue and perhaps reattachment of certain tendons or ligaments was warranted. The shoulder is such a complex structure that every case is unique. Factors that vary include how strong and healthy your muscle tissue was prior to injury, the type of injury, the tissues that were injured, whether you have reinjured that area repeatedly, the skill of the surgeon and procedure done, how well you follow rehab rules, how well your current metabolism supports healing, and how you plan to use the shoulder once healed. So while it can be helpful to hear others' stories about their shoulder injuries, keep in mind that yours will probably be somewhat different.


----------



## Ceicei (Mar 8, 2012)

I saw the surgeon yesterday; he had x-rays taken with three views.  They didn't show anything, so tomorrow I'm having an MRI.  Hopefully, the MRI will show what exactly the problem is with my shoulder.  

I'm hoping for a positive resolution...

Ceicei


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (Mar 12, 2012)

Good luck!  Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Ceicei (Mar 13, 2012)

Got the results back yesterday of my MRI from Friday.

Found I have three tears...glenoid labrum, glenohumeral ligament, and supraspinatus tendon. Also found tendinosis of the infraspinatus tendon.

Depressing.  Surgery will happen in April.

Ceicei


----------



## Ceicei (Mar 13, 2012)

The good thing is that once I've recovered fully after four months,  I should be able to return to doing the activities I love:   Kenpo, Jujitsu, and underground caving.

Ceicei


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 13, 2012)

Ceicei said:


> ... underground caving.
> 
> Ceicei



Can't resist...  Is there *above*ground caving?


----------



## Ceicei (Mar 14, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Can't resist...  Is there *above*ground caving?



I laughed.  It does sound like an oxymoron.

I suppose many probably don't realize there is underwater caving, and I was making that distinction.

Ceicei


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 14, 2012)

Ceicei said:


> I laughed.  It does sound like an oxymoron.
> 
> I suppose many probably don't realize there is underwater caving, and I was making that distinction.
> 
> Ceicei



Cave diving is *awesome*. But certainly not for everyone. One of the maxims of cave diving is "there are no accidents in cave diving. Only fatalities".

Hope you have a speedy and complete recovery.


----------



## Ceicei (Mar 14, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Cave diving is *awesome*. But certainly not for everyone. One of the maxims of cave diving is "there are no accidents in cave diving. Only fatalities".
> 
> Hope you have a speedy and complete recovery.


  Thank you!

Ceicei


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 14, 2012)

Ceicei said:


> I laughed.  It does sound like an oxymoron.
> 
> I suppose many probably don't realize there is underwater caving, and I was making that distinction.
> 
> Ceicei



I actually do know someone who does underwater caving, as well as hole-in-the-dirt caving.  In fact, she was somehow involved with the true story behind that movie about underwater caving a couple of years ago...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 14, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> I actually do know someone who does underwater caving, as well as hole-in-the-dirt caving.  In fact, she was somehow involved with the true story behind that movie about underwater caving a couple of years ago...



Sanctum was not even based on a true story. It was a Hollywood story inspired by the story of a group of people who were trapped for a couple of days in a cave in Australia. They were filming a cave diving documentary when a storm caused a rockslide which blocked the entrance. They waited. They were dug out. As I recall, nobody died, and I do not think anybody was badly injured. Scared half to death, I bet, but not badly injured.

About the only real connection between the real story and the movie is a cave, a storm and divers. The actual events were completely made up. "Journey to the Center of the Earth" had about as much basis in reality.

Agnes Milwoka, who was the stunt diver for the women in that movie, and one of the most respected women in cave diving, died diving in a cave shortly after the movie came out. Details of these things are rarely known, but from what IS known, it's clear that she violated a number of the most basic safety standards of cave diving. Including leaving her buddy, not running a line, and leaving half her air behind at a restriction. It was a sobering reminder that even the best get complacent and make rookie mistakes.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't pretend to know the whole story or accuracy of the movie.  I posted all I knew. My friend was more involved than simply knowing the real people but I couldn't say what. 

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceicei (May 2, 2012)

I had shoulder surgery on April 19th.  Surgery went well in repairing the three tears.  However, a bone spur next to a tear also was discovered that previously wasn't recognized with the MRI, so that had to be removed as well.  Surgery anticipated to take 1-1/2 to 2 hours ended up taking 3 hours instead.

Took percocet for pain, cephalexin as an antibiotic, promethazine for nausea (didn't really need this, only took once), and aspirin (I think this was to prevent clotting or something like that).

The ability of moving around with my shoulder was difficult and I felt zoned out.  I had to take maximum percocet as minimum wasn't working.

This week, I'm finally  off all medication. My shoulder still hurts, but pain is now bearable.  

A friend from my jujitsu dojo persuaded me to try some Nikken Kenko Power Patches on my shoulder (patches that contain a small magnetic disc applied directly to skin).  They are supposed to help reduce pain.  All I feel are these magnetic discs generating a heat/fire sensation, but not much else.  Pain didn't seem to be less, but I don't mind the heat sensation.

I'm scheduled to start physical therapy next week.  

My range of motion is improving each day.  I find, as of today, I'm finally able to slowly do a lower part of the star block (blocking set).  It'll be a great day when I can slowly complete (the upper part of) the star block set with my right side--that day will come soon, maybe within a few days. I'm not yet able to do the striking set.  Soon....

Maybe when I start physical therapy, it'll be better or easier.

I'm impatient to get back to martial arts, but my surgeon doesn't want me to return actively training with either Kenpo or Jujitsu for six months.  He says if I want to get my shoulder back to being better than it was (prior to my injury), I need to make sure it is fully healed by at least six months.  He says I'm very rough with my shoulder and the extensive damage shows this.  Faithful and consistent therapy while healing is what he wants.


Anyway, that's my progress sooooo far.

Ceicei


----------



## K-man (May 2, 2012)

Ceicei said:


> A friend from my jujitsu dojo persuaded me to try some Nikken Kenko Power Patches on my shoulder (patches that contain a small magnetic disc applied directly to skin).  They are supposed to help reduce pain.  All I feel are these magnetic discs generating a heat/fire sensation, but not much else.  Pain didn't seem to be less, but I don't mind the heat sensation.
> 
> I'm impatient to get back to martial arts, but my surgeon doesn't want me to return actively training with either Kenpo or Jujitsu for six months.  He says if I want to get my shoulder back to being better than it was (prior to my injury), I need to make sure it is fully healed by at least six months.  He says I'm very rough with my shoulder and the extensive damage shows this.  Faithful and consistent therapy while healing is what he wants.


Good to hear it all went well.  

Don't hang on magnets working.  They're a bit like 'Power Bands', mainly in the mind.

As for the healing time. This is one time I would be giving it time. Keep working on aerobic fitness and core strength but be really careful with the upper body work.  A good physiotherapist should be included in your close circle of friends for the next six months.  Backs and shoulders have my full respect.

Cheers.         :asian:


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 2, 2012)

It's always been interesting (to me) to see how evenly people seem to be divided between those who think magnetic fields will cure all ills, and those who think magnetic fields cause their ills. 

There's no solid science to support either theory. 


Sent from my iPhone using TapaTalk.


----------



## K-man (May 2, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's always been interesting (to me) to see how evenly people seem to be divided between those who think magnetic fields will cure all ills, and those who think magnetic fields cause their ills.
> 
> There's no solid science to support either theory.


This is why I wrote "mainly in the mind".    :asian:

Years ago we used to supply some magnetic products if requested but I never recommended them or endorsed them. There was a Japanese trial about 20 years ago that demonstrated a change in blood flow under the influence of magnets but I never saw any study that conclusively showed benefit in relieving pain. 



> There is almost no scientific evidence supporting magnet therapy, though the occasional positive study does exist, e.g., "Randomised controlled trial of magnetic bracelets for relieving pain in osteoarthritis of the hip and knee_"__("British Medical Journal, Dec. 2004). This was a small study (194 subjects over 12 weeks) that found a slightly higher decrease in pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee in the group wearing magnetic bracelets as opposed to a "dummy group". The authors noted: "It is uncertain whether this response is due to specific or non-specific (placebo) effects." The reason they could not be certain that the magnets were responsible for anything is that it is very difficult "to blind subjects to the presence of a magnet" (Finegold and Flamm 2006).
> _http://www.skepdic.com/magnetic.html


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 2, 2012)

I don't disagree at all, K-Man. Nor am I downplaying the role of the placebo effect. As far as I am concerned, if it makes you (generic you...) feel better to walk around with a magnet superglued to your forehead, then go for it.


----------



## Ceicei (May 8, 2012)

My first session of physical therapy started yesterday.   It was brutal..... but in a good way.  I'm already seeing some improvement by today.  Going back tomorrow for more intentionally inflected pain.

Ceicei


----------



## K-man (May 8, 2012)

That's good news. As that certain footwear company says ... "just do it".

Cheers.    :asian:


----------



## Buka (May 8, 2012)

I'm glad you started P.T.   All the best to you in healing and strengthening. 
I work in a P.T unit. If you need anything, P.M me.


----------



## Ceicei (May 17, 2012)

Week two of physical therapy.  Still very brutal with "mean" therapists.  I can see the progress.  Mobility gets better each time.  Pain becomes less with more mobility, but still hurts when moving on to a new physical range.  One of these days, pain will eventually be a distant memory.  it is a matter of patience....

Ceicei


----------



## Deshawn (May 24, 2012)

It didn't take the chiropractic specialist lengthy to announce that my right neck most likely has a spinning cuff damage and there wasn't anything more he could do to help that neck and he cannot fix what is split. At the very least, he did be successful in decreasing pain


----------



## Ceicei (May 24, 2012)

Deshawn said:


> It didn't take the chiropractic specialist lengthy to announce that my right neck most likely has a spinning cuff damage and there wasn't anything more he could do to help that neck and he cannot fix what is split. At the very least, he did be successful in decreasing pain



That is good your chiropractor found the problem and let you know. So he's saying the nerve pain you have in your neck is related to a shoulder injury?

 What will happen next for you?

Ceicei


----------



## guynes33 (Jul 29, 2012)

This is very common surgery, personally, I did it when I was 25 years old and nothing changed since that... things get better after the surgery...


----------



## MikeBielat (Dec 8, 2012)

I should get my right shoulder looked at. I have been getting thrown and teaching people to throw me for 4 years and something is ripped or torn. Same with my wrists from all the joint locks and tweaks throughout the years. 

I can imagine its pretty common for us MA people.


----------



## Buka (Dec 9, 2012)

You should get it looked at, Mike. You're too young to let it get any worse and you seem like there's a long, wonderful road of Martial Arts in front of you. You should get an MRI and maybe some physical therapy to strengthen it. Best of luck moving forward, sir.


----------



## MikeBielat (Dec 9, 2012)

Buka said:


> You should get it looked at, Mike. You're too young to let it get any worse and you seem like there's a long, wonderful road of Martial Arts in front of you. You should get an MRI and maybe some physical therapy to strengthen it. Best of luck moving forward, sir.



Thanks Buka. I had a good 8 year hiatus so it's not a fresh problem. Id imagine its scar tissue at this point. I notice it if I try to sleep with my right arm higher and tucked under my pillow or stuff like that. Probably a rotator cuff issue. We'll see what reinsures it so I can get it looked at lol.


----------

