# Chen and Yang styles are different?



## charyuop

Yes we all know that, but I found this video. It is nothing special, but I thought that for once seeing both style together would be interesting...


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## East Winds

Charyuop,

Interesting, but the girl is not doing Yang style. She is performing 48 step combined. A competition form that contains elements from Chen. Yang, Wu and Sun styles. They finish by performing the two man fighting set.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

Yup, that's 48 form, but it is a nice clip

Yang Shou Zong (Yang Sau Chung) Taiji. 





Tung Yingchieh





Chen Style Chen Style 18 basic form - Chen Zhenglei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTKyG...related&search

Chen Taiji Master Ren Guang-Yi's Compact Cannon Fist




 
I once had the chance to see an old film my first CMA sifu had of 2 old Chinese guys doing push hands. One was 85 and was doing Chen style one was 90 and doing Wu style. It was incredibly fast, flowing, both high and low, powerful yet soft and absolutely amazing to see.

As one Chen Sifu told me &#8220;Yang is to high&#8221;
As one Yang Sifu told me &#8220;Chen is to low&#8221;


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## charyuop

oh  sorry I am still an ignorant on the subject hee hee.


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## Xue Sheng

charyuop said:


> oh  sorry I am still an ignorant on the subject hee hee.


 
No big deal, I can't... actually I won't... tell you how many years I called it Yang Style 48 form. 

I still slip and call it that from time to time.


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## charyuop

Oh, so there isn't a 48 Yang? Meaning the one I will learn it is not Yang style?
So let's see....the 8 form is not Yang and not even the 48. Plus the 24 was created by a group of Masters and there was no member of the Yang family in it.
Does that mean that the only Yang style is the long form???


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## Xue Sheng

24 form is based on Yang style, 48 also has Yang style in it. 

Traditional Yang style consists of; 
This is a partial list  and it may not entirely be correct since my Sifu learned from Tung. East Winds could give you a more correct/complete list of what is Traditional Yang Style. 

Long Form
Fast Form
Short straight Sword form
Long straight sword form
Short Broadsword form
Long broadsword form
Staff form
Spear form
Stationary push hands
 Single hand
 2 hands
Moving push hands
 3 Steps
 4 corners
Freestyle Push hands
Qi training.

There is also the Yang style curriculum of Gin Soon Chu. He was a student of Yang Chengfu's oldest son
http://www.gstaichi.org/english/curriculum.php

I started with 24 form and I know a traditional Yang teacher that is a student of Yang Chengfu that teaches it to his beginner students, but it looks traditional as does mine now. I also liked 48 very much and I regret that I stopped training it because to me it had a lot of obvious applications. 

I owe a lot to my first CMA Sifu even though he was a graduate of a Wushu University in China and not a Traditional Yang stylist.


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## East Winds

As far as I know, the Yang family only recognise the bare hand form (103, 105, 108 depending on how you count), a 39 form founded by Yang Zhen Duo, 68 form sword, 13 form sabre and push hands. As far as I know they do not teach a spear form. 

Incidentally, the first 17 moves of the Traditional Yang Long form are the same as the first 17 moves of the Chen (laojia) form. Performed in a different way of course!!!!

Very best wishes


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## Taijiman

> Oh, so there isn't a 48 Yang? Meaning the one I will learn it is not Yang style?
> So let's see....the 8 form is not Yang and not even the 48. Plus the 24 was created by a group of Masters and there was no member of the Yang family in it.
> Does that mean that the only Yang style is the long form???


Sounds like your learning the standardized system:
24 (mostly Yang with some alterations and Sun influence in the stepping... rocking step)
42 combined... new competition form
48 combined... old competition form
66 combined... long combined form, not taught much
88 Yang... I think it's officially called Yang style, though it's a slight alteration (some say plagurism) of Yang Cheng Fu's long form (usually counted 85 in mainland China).

Of course there's a lot of traditional masters, especially those with mainland roots, that like to teach some of these modern forms to beginers before getting into the traditional style.

The 40 move Yang form is another form "officialy" called Yang, and is basically all Yang movements, but not really recognized as such by a lot of traditionalists.  I think it might still have a few non-Yang movements in it.  I don't know traditional Yang style, so I couldn't say.  It's the official competition form in mainland China for Yang style though.


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## East Winds

Tajiman,

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Yang Zhen Duo (3rd son of Yang Cheng-fu) created a 49 posture form which he hoped would become the recognised competition Yang form. Like Cheng Manching he removed the repitions, but unlike CMC he maintained the Traditonal Yang way of performing the form. He was at pains to explain that it was not a "Simplified" form, but maintained all the aspects of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. It could be performed in about 11 minutes and was therefore suitable for competiton. I don't know how well this has been adopted in actual competition though.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> Tajiman,
> 
> Yes, you are absolutely correct. Yang Zhen Duo (3rd son of Yang Cheng-fu) created a 49 posture form which he hoped would become the recognised competition Yang form. Like Cheng Manching he removed the repitions, but unlike CMC he maintained the Traditonal Yang way of performing the form. He was at pains to explain that it was not a "Simplified" form, but maintained all the aspects of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. It could be performed in about 11 minutes and was therefore suitable for competiton. I don't know how well this has been adopted in actual competition though.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
You learn something new everyday, I did not know that, thanks.


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## Laoshi77

Yes they are slightly different, however, my Taiqiquan teacher recently told me something that entertains the idea of the post. It is quite simple, yet profound: "forget the form and focus on the function", whether it is Yang (my style) or Chen, the applications are much the same. 

There are indeed different means towards the same end!


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## marlon

East Winds said:


> As far as I know, the Yang family only recognise the bare hand form (103, 105, 108 depending on how you count), a 39 form founded by Yang Zhen Duo, 68 form sword, 13 form sabre and push hands. As far as I know they do not teach a spear form.
> 
> Incidentally, the first 17 moves of the Traditional Yang Long form are the same as the first 17 moves of the Chen (laojia) form. Performed in a different way of course!!!!
> 
> Very best wishes


 

HJow does the 103 form become a 108 or 105 form?

Marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> HJow does the 103 form become a 108 or 105 form?
> 
> Marlon


 
It depends on how the person teaching it counts. Some count the repeat forms some do not and then others omit some of the repeats.

My sifu and his sifu both just call it the long form.


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## marlon

Thank you.  I had asked someone about the 108 form and they had not heard of it.  I think the Yang family now count it as 103.

Respectfully,
Marlon
btw thanks for all the info.  it is good to learn


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> Thank you. I had asked someone about the 108 form and they had not heard of it. I think the Yang family now count it as 103.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon
> btw thanks for all the info. it is good to learn


 
I believe you are right. 

My teacher calls it the long form as did his teacher. But once when someone asked him for the exact number he counted 108. As he says the number is really not important, practicing the form is. He also says he never heard any form he learned described by number until after coming to the USA.


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## grappling_mandala

108 has very distinct qualities geometrically.


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## themadbuddha

It's always interesting to hear how many different types of Yang Taichi there is. I remember trying something I read about with my old Sifu and he laughed and told me that it was a "Western" thing, not done in China or in competitions. Once, my sister announced to everyone that she was going to learn Taichi at her gym so I went along and found that her teacher had around 2 years of learning and her focus was purely meditational with absolutely no martial function and strange footwork.

Different ways of making the same dish I guess.


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## East Winds

themadbuddha,

Sounds like your sister found the Taoist Tai Chi Society!!!! Your description fits them perfectly!!! :erg:

Avoid at all costs.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

Hey I once had a guy say to me (in an incredibly argumentative tone) that he just could not understand why I wanted to do any Tai Chi but Yang style because all others do not move their arms. (He had just started training with the Yang Family.) 

What provoked this was my statement that I was considering returning to Chen style

After some discussion I found that he had only studied one other place and it was likely the Taoist Tai Chi society and he calmed down.


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## Lambert

Greetings Sifu,
I studied under Sifu Andrew Lum in Hawaii over 20 years ago. I believe he taught us a variant of the Chen Man Ching Yang style ( I recall a lot of moves "down low.") I only got half way through before moving. Now that I am retired I would like to restart my study of Tai Chi but had some questions I would like to ask here.
There is no local sifu in my area ( western NY) Would you comment on instructional DVDs as an option to learning Tai Chi? While I have read your posts on the differences between Chen and Yang styles, which would you recommend for me? My other martial arts background is a year and a half in Kenpo under master Godin in Hawaii. To quote from an earlier post; I have no interest in standing around in a circle in tie dyed garb moving to a candle and soft music of a vaguely eastern origin. I am looking for a sound style with good movement with a strong background in the martial arts. Would you also give your recommendations on a source to purchase those instructional DVDs?
thank you in advance for your help.


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## Xue Sheng

Lambert said:


> Greetings Sifu,
> I studied under Sifu Andrew Lum in Hawaii over 20 years ago. I believe he taught us a variant of the Chen Man Ching Yang style ( I recall a lot of moves "down low.") I only got half way through before moving. Now that I am retired I would like to restart my study of Tai Chi but had some questions I would like to ask here.
> There is no local sifu in my area ( western NY) Would you comment on instructional DVDs as an option to learning Tai Chi? While I have read your posts on the differences between Chen and Yang styles, which would you recommend for me? My other martial arts background is a year and a half in Kenpo under master Godin in Hawaii. To quote from an earlier post; I have no interest in standing around in a circle in tie dyed garb moving to a candle and soft music of a vaguely eastern origin. I am looking for a sound style with good movement with a strong background in the martial arts. Would you also give your recommendations on a source to purchase those instructional DVDs?
> thank you in advance for your help.


 
If youre talking to me I am not a Sifu, Xue will do. If youre talking to someone else please forgive my intrusion.

Western NY covers a lot of ground, near any particular city? If you do not want to post it PM me if you like.

Either style has martial arts in it, Chen tends to be lower stances more Qinna and more obvious fajiing. But don't let Yang fool you a good Yang teacher is very effective as well.

I will have to check but I think there may be a Chen guy around Rochester, but I am not 100% sure. And there use to be and may still be a Traditional Yang School in Buffalo but I have no idea what it is like.

Also depending on how close you are to the Canadian border the Wu family is in Ontario I believe. 

Maybe this will help a little towards you're decision

Yang Style
http://www.answers.com/topic/yang-style-tai-chi-chuan

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/splash

Chen Style

http://www.answers.com/topic/chen-style-tai-chi-chuan

http://www.chenxiaowang.com/

Chen Zhenglei also has a website but I cannot currently locate it

Also look for Chen Xiaowang or Chen Zhenglei seminars that might be close to your area.

Tai Chi
http://www.answers.com/topic/tai-chi-chuan-2

Tai Chi Network
http://www.taichinetwork.org/list_search.cfm


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## marlon

i read recently that Yang lu Chang changed his tài c`hi that he taught at court so the Manchu`s would not have it and that now there is only exercise tài c`hi left from the Yangs and the original form has been lost.  This seems very wrong and perhaps i misunderstood the wording (from the preface of the book Tài C`hi Classics by  someone with the initials W.L.  Even if the court story is true the original form should be a Chen form, no?  I am knew to Tai Chi so forgive my ignorance

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> i read recently that Yang lu Chang changed his tài c`hi that he taught at court so the Manchu`s would not have it and that now there is only exercise tài c`hi left from the Yangs and the original form has been lost. This seems very wrong and perhaps i misunderstood the wording (from the preface of the book Tài C`hi Classics by someone with the initials W.L. Even if the court story is true the original form should be a Chen form, no? I am knew to Tai Chi so forgive my ignorance
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


If the martial art of Yang is lost then why can my Sifu through me around like a rag doll when he is half my size? :uhyeah:

Yes Chen is the original Tai Chi as we know Tai Chi today, but some Zhaobao people dispute this.

Yang Luchan's son Yang Banhou was an accomplished Yang style fighter as were Banhou's Nephews Shouhao and Chengfu. Chengfu changed the family style to what we see as Yang style today. Chengfu taught Tung Ying Chieh who taught my Sifu who taught me and I have been taught the martial arts of it. 

But I must apologize, to answer your question completely would take a very long post and I do not have time for it right now. If Eastwinds see this he can respond further. 


Also if the martial arts of it were lost after Luchan then Wu style, Hao style, Tung/Dong style and Cheng Manching style would also be sans MA and that is not true.

But Luchan's form was first changed by his 3rd son Yang Jian Hou and later changed further by his son Chengfu

Yang Shao Hou (Chengfu's older brother) learned from Yang Banhou (Chengfu's Uncle) so it is much closer to the original Yang family style of Luchan (Banhou and Jain Hou's father), but this version of the Yang family style is incredibly rare today.

What has happened is that Chengfu had a WHOLE lot of students and it is practically impossible to confirm all that claim a connection to the Yang family. And then there was developed the Beijing (Yang) 24 form that really had nothing to do with the family. This leave you with a whole lot of alleged yang style schools that really are not. 

The Chen family has maintained a MUCH tighter grip on who is and who is not teaching real Chen style. But then there are fewer people that have learned Chen. 

But sadly there is some truth to what you say, but it is happening now. Many tai chi schools are not teaching the martial arts side much if at all and martial tai chi is dying. 

And this was the short answer. 

Yang Family Information
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/history/


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## Lambert

First, thank you Xue Sheng for your help. I did spend some time looking around at the links you sent me. The Rochester Tai Chi Chuan Center runs classes in BOTH William C.C. Cheng Yang style and what they call Chen Pang-Lin style. I do not pretend to understand the differences between them but will attend an open house this weekend and see what I can learn. From their own descriptions, they are heavily focused on Tai Chi' martial arts applications. Any light you may be able to shed here on their differences would be appreciated as well.  I have read many of this forum's  discussions about stylistic differences. I can only conclude so far that I have way too much information. WIll let you know how it goes, many thanks again!


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## Xue Sheng

If the teacher is a student of William C.C. Chen check his sight to see if he is an approved teacher. If so I have great faith that they will teach the martial arts side well. 

William CC Chen was a student of Cheng Manching who was a student of Yang Chengfu. However Cheng Manching changed the form considerably, to a point where I would not call it Yang style nor does the Yang family. I call it Cheng Manching style, but I like it and as taught by William CC Chen I like it a whole lot. 

http://www.williamccchen.com/

Chen Pan Ling trained Shaolin styles from his father and also studied Yang style with Yang Shaohao as well as training Wu and Chen styles. He was also trained in Xingyi and Bagua. If you want more I may have it at home in an old book somewhere, but I will need to look for it. 

http://rtccc.hypermart.net/cplstory.shtml

Chen Pan Ling, what little I know of it, is a conglomerate of at least Yang, Wu and Chen. But I know little else about it.


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## East Winds

Marlon,

Xue Sheng has pretty much summed it up very well. There is a huge disparity in Yang style teaching and I agree with Xue's take on how that came about. However the current Yang family do teach the martial side and they tend to call their system Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan to distinguish from much of the rubbish masquerading as Yang style. The current form (taught by Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun) is exactly what Yang Cheng-fu left us as his final form. This can be proved by looking at films of Yang Shaou Hou, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen and Tung Ying Chieh. Cheng fu said of this final form "That is it. It cannot be improved upon.  To change one thing would be to lose the essence of the form" .  Cheng Manching  of course did just that!!!!

Very best wishes


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## grydth

What specific misdeed(s) are you accusing "Cheng Manching" of?


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## East Winds

grydth,

I'm not accusing Cheng Manching of anything. When Cheng-fu said "....to change one thing would be to lose the essence of the form" he was stating just that. Change one thing and it would no longer be Yang style. I place Cheng Manching in the same league as Wu Chan Yu or Sun Lu Tang. They created a new system that had its roots in Yang. Cheng Manching style is just that - Cheng Manching style - it is not Yang. I have a great deal of respect for Cheng Manching style, there are many practitioners here in Scotland, but Manching changed so many principles from Cheng-fu's form that it is now a different system. I also hear now that someone wants to change the Manching form to add other parts to it? Will it still be Cheng Manching form?

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> grydth,
> 
> I'm not accusing Cheng Manching of anything. When Cheng-fu said "....to change one thing would be to lose the essence of the form" he was stating just that. Change one thing and it would no longer be Yang style. I place Cheng Manching in the same league as Wu Chan Yu or Sun Lu Tang. They created a new system that had its roots in Yang. Cheng Manching style is just that - Cheng Manching style - it is not Yang. I have a great deal of respect for Cheng Manching style, there are many practitioners here in Scotland, but Manching changed so many principles from Cheng-fu's form that it is now a different system. I also hear now that someone wants to change the Manching form to add other parts to it? Will it still be Cheng Manching form?
> 
> Very best wishes


 
I agree with this.

I am a big fan of Cheng Manching style but I would not call it Yang style anymore than I would call Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao or Sun style Chen. They all come from Chen they are all good styles but they are not Chen. Same with Cheng Manching and Yang. 

MY Sifu learned from Tung and he teaches Yang style but some of what he teaches is not Yang style it is Tung style. The Tung/Dong family does the same thing these days. They teach Yang style but they also have thier own family style that they label as such.


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## marlon

East Winds said:


> Marlon,
> 
> Xue Sheng has pretty much summed it up very well. There is a huge disparity in Yang style teaching and I agree with Xue's take on how that came about. However the current Yang family do teach the martial side and they tend to call their system Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan to distinguish from much of the rubbish masquerading as Yang style. The current form (taught by Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun) is exactly what Yang Cheng-fu left us as his final form. This can be proved by looking at films of Yang Shaou Hou, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen and Tung Ying Chieh. Cheng fu said of this final form "That is it. It cannot be improved upon. To change one thing would be to lose the essence of the form" . Cheng Manching of course did just that!!!!
> 
> Very best wishes


 

Interesting.  i have seen Yang Jun do the form on You Tube and apparently it is different from what is now being taught.  i know a student of a certified teacher (Serggio) in Montreal.  The student corrected my movements considerably stating that that is the old way.  I can understand returning to the original form but not saying that this is what the familty has always taught because...
sorry i began poloiticing forget it
marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> Interesting. i have seen Yang Jun do the form on You Tube and apparently it is different from what is now being taught. i know a student of a certified teacher (Serggio) in Montreal. The student corrected my movements considerably stating that that is the old way. I can understand returning to the original form but not saying that this is what the familty has always taught because...
> sorry i began poloiticing forget it
> marlon


 
What Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou and any of the Yang family that came before Shaohou taught and practiced was different than what Yang Jian Hou ended up training and teaching and all were different than what Chengfu ended up teaching and training. 

What Chengfu taught is what the Yang family teaches today.

Originally it was higher and more compact then it got a bit lower and wider and then lower yet again and wider still. 

The only person I know of that currently claims lineage to Banhou, that I believe, is Yang Jwing Ming. That does not mean that there are not others.

If I may ask who certified (Serggio) in Montreal


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## Xue Sheng

And I do not know why I did no tpost this much sooner

Chen and Yang styles are different? You be the judge

I beleive both of the Chen forms are Chen Xiaowang 

Cxw laojia Yilu (old form 1)





Cxw laojia erlu (old form 2)





Yang Jun

Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 1 part, 103 form





Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 2 part, 103 form


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## grydth

Xue Sheng said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I am a big fan of Cheng Manching style but I would not call it Yang style anymore than I would call Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao or Sun style Chen. They all come from Chen they are all good styles but they are not Chen. Same with Cheng Manching and Yang.
> 
> MY Sifu learned from Tung and he teaches Yang style but some of what he teaches is not Yang style it is Tung style. The Tung/Dong family does the same thing these days. They teach Yang style but they also have thier own family style that they label as such.



Well, I cannot take offense with, or disagree with, the sentiments either of you personally express...... but are neither of you troubled by the quote of Yang Cheng Fu? To me it illustrates that even great individuals can have questionable ideas and sayings. Perhaps I am interpreting it incorrectly?


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## Xue Sheng

grydth said:


> ... but are neither of you troubled by the quote of Yang Cheng Fu? To me it illustrates that even great individuals can have questionable ideas and sayings. Perhaps I am interpreting it incorrectly?


 
Not bothered by it nor do I agree with it, nor have I heard that he said that before. He also died saying that there should be a fast form in Yang style and was working on it, but died before it was much more then in the early stages of development. So how complete did he really feel the system was?


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## grydth

East Winds said:


> themadbuddha,
> 
> Sounds like your sister found the Taoist Tai Chi Society!!!! Your description fits them perfectly!!! :erg:
> 
> Avoid at all costs.
> 
> Very best wishes



Does anyone know the full story on this so called Taoist Tai Chi Society? I note you are writing from Scotland, but I'm in upstate New York and they are here, too! 

A friend visited the local society office once, and was told all they had was a 108 posture form and he was handed some type of contract. This document included a no competition clause. Other than small ads on the back page of our weekly paper one does not hear too much of them....the library system here purports to offer opportunities to learn Tai Chi - but it is on closer inspection, "Tai Chi Chih"...... talk about things to avoid!


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## grydth

Xue Sheng said:


> Not bothered by it nor do I agree with it, nor have I heard that he said that before. He also died saying that there should be a fast form in Yang style and was working on it, but died before it was much more then in the early stages of development. So how complete did he really feel the system was?



But I would ask both you and East Winds this: 

It is a given that humility and a continuing willingness to learn and improve are vital for all martial artists, from beginner to very learned..... 

Are not these traits also vital, perhaps even more so, for system founders? Does the Yang Cheng Fu quote - and for discussion purposes I accept its accuracy - demonstrate these?


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## Xue Sheng

grydth said:


> But I would ask both you and East Winds this:
> 
> It is a given that humility and a continuing willingness to learn and improve are vital for all martial artists, from beginner to very learned.....
> 
> Are not these traits also vital, perhaps even more so, for system founders? Does the Yang Cheng Fu quote - and for discussion purposes I accept its accuracy - demonstrate these?


 
I cannot accept the Yang Chengfu quote as accurate because I have no confirmation that it is. To discuss something that I do not know is valid or not is to me pointless. We could just as easily have a discussion about what would the world be like if the Yeti was proven to exist. So therefore I will not discuss a quote as accurate when I am not sure that it is.

As I have already said, I have not heard that he said this before and I also have said that he was working on a Yang Style fast form, (which was finished by his student Tung Ying Chieh) therefore I do not think that he believed that was it for Yang style. If he did then, at least to me, he would have seen no need for the development of a fast form. 

If this is a quote from the Yang Family I do not agree with it and in an attempt to be diplomatic I will not comment further on this in an open post. I would be happy to PM you my thoughts on this if you so desire. (And no I am not angry or upset in anyway just attempting to be diplomatic for a change, something new for me)

And all martial arts evolve, some for the better, some for the worse.


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## grydth

I would enjoy discussing this, I consider it a worthy topic on what we expect of our Founders and system heads...... perhaps if East Winds will cite the source we can proceed.....


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## East Winds

grydth,

The Taoist Tai Chi Society are  a registered charity. Their Instructors teach for no fee. You can become an "Instructor" in as little as 18 months of starting to learn and be let loose on an unsupecting public. Instructors are expressly forbidden to take part in any other form of Tai Chi or to discuss or participate in any form of martial expression. Having said that, they purport to teach Sword, Sabre, Xing-Yi and Liu Ho Pa Fa. (Without any martial intention??????) :erg: Although these are usually taught under the auspices of sister organisations Fung Loy Kock and Gei Pang. The founder the late Moy Lin Shin claimed to be a Taoist monk from mainland China but spoke Cantonese. It was originally claimed that the form they taught was developed by Moy from ancient teachings he received in his monastery. However they now concede that it is the Yang family long form modified slightly by Moy. You are required to join the Society and pay a monthly fee whether you attend classses or not. 

I could write more, but I think the above says enough to give you a flavour of what they are doing.

Very best wishes


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## marlon

Xue Sheng said:


> And I do not know why I did no tpost this much sooner
> 
> Chen and Yang styles are different? You be the judge
> 
> I beleive both of the Chen forms are Chen Xiaowang
> 
> Cxw laojia Yilu (old form 1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cxw laojia erlu (old form 2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yang Jun
> 
> Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 1 part, 103 form
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yang Taiji, Master Yang Jun, 2 part, 103 form


 
i love the chen forms!!! they remind me of the sword form in the movie crouching tiger hidden dragon.

i was told by a Yang student who has been studying for 3 yearts that Yang Jun does not do the form this way any more.  there are many ' corrections'
Seggio learns in China well now Wisconson or Washington...i do not remember where he moved to...Yang Jun i mean.  Seggio learns directly fron the Yang family

marlon


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## marlon

Xue Sheng said:


> I cannot accept the Yang Chengfu quote as accurate because I have no confirmation that it is. To discuss something that I do not know is valid or not is to me pointless. We could just as easily have a discussion about what would the world be like if the Yeti was proven to exist. So therefore I will not discuss a quote as accurate when I am not sure that it is.
> 
> As I have already said, I have not heard that he said this before and I also have said that he was working on a Yang Style fast form, (which was finished by his student Tung Ying Chieh) therefore I do not think that he believed that was it for Yang style. If he did then, at least to me, he would have seen no need for the development of a fast form.
> 
> If this is a quote from the Yang Family I do not agree with it and in an attempt to be diplomatic I will not comment further on this in an open post. I would be happy to PM you my thoughts on this if you so desire. (And no I am not angry or upset in anyway just attempting to be diplomatic for a change, something new for me)
> 
> And all martial arts evolve, some for the better, some for the worse.


 
any idea why a fast form has not been created by the Yang family?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> any idea why a fast form has not been created by the Yang family?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Nope, I have my suspicions but that is all.

All I know is what my Sifu told me about his Sifu Tung.

Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Chengfu were discussing a fast form and Chengfu believed one was needed. They discussed it in great detail and started work on it when Chengfu died so Tung completed it. That is all I know. 

For the most part it is very similar to the postures in the long form but there are some differences in the postures and there are a couple of postures that are not in the long form that are in the short form. And it is shorter.


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> i love the chen forms!!! they remind me of the sword form in the movie crouching tiger hidden dragon.
> 
> i was told by a Yang student who has been studying for 3 yearts that Yang Jun does not do the form this way any more. there are many ' corrections'
> Seggio learns in China well now Wisconson or Washington...i do not remember where he moved to...Yang Jun i mean. Seggio learns directly fron the Yang family
> 
> marlon


 
Chen forms are so cool 

And I think Yang Jun is in Washington


And thanks for answering my question.


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## grydth

East Winds said:


> grydth,
> 
> The Taoist Tai Chi Society are a registered charity. Their Instructors teach for no fee. You can become an "Instructor" in as little as 18 months of starting to learn and be let loose on an unsupecting public. Instructors are expressly forbidden to take part in any other form of Tai Chi or to discuss or participate in any form of martial expression. Having said that, they purport to teach Sword, Sabre, Xing-Yi and Liu Ho Pa Fa. (Without any martial intention??????) :erg: Although these are usually taught under the auspices of sister organisations Fung Loy Kock and Gei Pang. The founder the late Moy Lin Shin claimed to be a Taoist monk from mainland China but spoke Cantonese. It was originally claimed that the form they taught was developed by Moy from ancient teachings he received in his monastery. However they now concede that it is the Yang family long form modified slightly by Moy. You are required to join the Society and pay a monthly fee whether you attend classses or not.
> 
> I could write more, but I think the above says enough to give you a flavour of what they are doing.
> 
> Very best wishes



I see there was discussion of this group here on a thread in 2003. The website is even more horrifying than you let on...

A question which arose then, and is still sound now: Why is it that fine and qualified teachers of traditional Tai Chi often have only 5 or 10 students, when this questionable society, and the even more odious Tai Chi Chih, are apparently packing them in by the thousands? What does this say about the state of the planet? (I wonder if this should be its own thread or if the old one should be revived)


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## Xue Sheng

grydth said:


> I see there was discussion of this group here on a thread in 2003. The website is even more horrifying than you let on...
> 
> A question which arose then, and is still sound now: Why is it that fine and qualified teachers of traditional Tai Chi often have only 5 or 10 students, when this questionable society, and the even more odious Tai Chi Chih, are apparently packing them in by the thousands? What does this say about the state of the planet? (I wonder if this should be its own thread or if the old one should be revived)


 
That topic has been a thread more than once on MT.

I have stated in past posts, in reference to this that 2 schools in my area both CMA one has a lot of students but the teacher although well trained in Wushu does not make his students do forms correctly and he lets them teach when they are not qualified while the Wing Chun school down the street has fewer students but teaches real martial arts CMA. 

Also this first school has a great number of Tai Chi students who collect forms and do them badly while my Sifu. Up until 3 years ago, never had more than 20 students at a time between 2 classes. He has changed his class a bit (which I am not happy about, but that was another post) and he has gained more students, but he still ahs nowhere near the number of Tai Chi students the teacher at the first school has. 

It is, most unfortunately, a fact of training in America. Many do not want to get hurt and training a real CMA could get you hurt therefore they go the easy route, particularly in Tai Chi. My most recent CMC instructor teaches martial applications and push hands and he also has fewer students that the first school. A sad but true fact, at least in my neck of the woods.

But this is going WAY off post here and it would be best done in a revival of an older post or stating a new one.


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## marlon

does anyone know the reason for the change from the alternating fast slow of the chen forms and the early yang forms to the all slow of today's yang forms as taught by Yang chengfu? 

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

why choose yang over a chen style?  Other than availablity, the chen style looks more like a martial art although both are excellent martial art systems.  I hope to avoid any bashing and just have people share thier thoughts and opinions, keeping in mind that a bad experience does not make a style bad.

Respectfully,
marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> why choose yang over a chen style? Other than availablity, the chen style looks more like a martial art although both are excellent martial art systems. I hope to avoid any bashing and just have people share thier thoughts and opinions, keeping in mind that a bad experience does not make a style bad.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
If I had good Sifu&#8217;s of both styles available to me I would choose Chen Style, no big reason I just like it better for me, it just fits me better that is all. I tend to like the explosiveness of Chen but I also rather enjoy the Yang Style fast form too. 

I trained Chen for a bit several years ago but due to the lack of a Sifu I had to stop. I then found my Yang style Sifu and that is what I have trained for many years now. I did return to Chen briefly rather recently with a group that is starting up that is associated with Chen Zhenglei but I stopped. Nothing against them they are working hard to get a school going but it was just too basic and to slow for what I was looking for. 

And you are right both are rather good martial arts you are likely to find more Yang schools that don't teach martial arts than Chen schools but then you are likely to find more Yang schools than Chen schools so that is not surprising. 

I also like Wu style and Zhaobao style better than Yang to, they also just fit me better but there are no Sifu&#8217;s for either close enough for me to train. 

I am not saying anything against Yang style I have great respect for true Yang Stylist and my Sifu it is just a matter of what feels better to me.


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## marlon

thanks.  I did not know there was a yang fast form.  Is there any footage of it?  Also, the foot stomping in the chen forms, i have see it upright and in low stances other than the obvious, what is the reason - application for this?  Thank you

marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> thanks. I did not know there was a yang fast form. Is there any footage of it? Also, the foot stomping in the chen forms, i have see it upright and in low stances other than the obvious, what is the reason - application for this? Thank you
> 
> marlon


 
The fast form that I do comes from discussion between Yang Changfu and Tung Ying Chieh. Chengfu died before it was completed and Tung finished the form so it is likely rare and only in the Chengfu -> Tung Lineage. And I have not seen a video of it. There is a video on YouTube of Vincent Chu doing a Yang Fast form but it is very different that what I do. Tung Ying Chieh also made up his own fast form after that but it too looks very different. So technically from Tung come a Yang fast form and a Tung fast form. 

The Chen foot stomp applications. Well I imagine there are many, some for fajing and qi, but Chen Zhenglei can crush stones with it and I would sure hate for my foot to be under that.


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## marlon

HOLY CRAP!! crush stones!!!

do you have any footage of the fast form?

marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> HOLY CRAP!! crush stones!!!
> 
> do you have any footage of the fast form?
> 
> marlon


 
Vincent Chu's fast form




 
But this is not the fast form from Yang Chengfu and Tung Ying Chieh that I do sorry I can find no video of it.


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## marlon

is this a yang based form?

marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> is this a yang based form?
> 
> marlon


 
Vincent was trained by his father Gin Soon Chu who was trained by Yang Zhenming who was Yang Chengfu's oldest son. But to be honest I do not know the origin of his fast form. BUt he teaches it a Yang 42 form. 

Per my sifu the Yang style fast form that I do had its origins with Yang Chengfu snd he discussed this a great length with TUng Ying Chieh and they did begin working on it just before Chengfu died. Also per my sifu he did not think that Yang Zhenming ever learned this form. Although his school and Tung's school were very close.


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## marlon

Xue Sheng said:


> Vincent Chu's fast form
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But this is not the fast form from Yang Chengfu and Tung Ying Chieh that I do sorry I can find no video of it.


 
i finally had the time to see it.  Thank you.  Is this similar to the Tung fast form.  I note although it is sped up there are not any great displays of obvious favjing.  Also, he seems bent at the waist a little and looks down at times, do you know the reasoning behind this?
thank you for taking the time to discuss these things with me and increase my knowledge

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> i finally had the time to see it. Thank you. Is this similar to the Tung fast form. I note although it is sped up there are not any great displays of obvious favjing. Also, he seems bent at the waist a little and looks down at times, do you know the reasoning behind this?
> thank you for taking the time to discuss these things with me and increase my knowledge
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
The Yang fast form that I do does not look like Vincent Chu's.

My fast form has some similarity to the Long Yang form but there are some forms in it that I have not come across in any other yang form and it is shorter than the Yang Long form.

I once saw a video of it on some website out of Beijing but I cannot find it now. If I do I will post it for you.

Much of my problem I had originally with the Yang style I do is separating what is Tung from what is Yang. However per my Sifu this is a Yang fast form as thought up in the mind if Chengfu and developed mostly by Tung after much discussion between Chengfu and Tung. As I said Chengfu died before it was finished.

There is also a Tung fast form and Tung Jain form but my sifu has made it clear to me that those do not come from Chengfu or the Yang family. 

I did post some pistures once on MT of Tung and a couple of the stills are of Tung in teh fast form. If I find them again I will post them and let you know which stills they are.


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## marlon

thank you XS

marlon


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## Xue Sheng

Tung Ying Chieh
http://www.ttopa.com/tyc.htm

Of the top 6 photos could be either the Yang slow or fast form. However I am not sure what the photo in the bottom row in the middle is from, that could be Tung's fast form 

The bottom 7 photos

Looking at it like this

*1 2 3
4
5 6 7*​ 
1 could be Yang slow or fast
2 is Yang slow
3 is Yang slow
4 is Yang fast
5 is Yang fast
6 is YAng fast but could also be slow
7 could be Tung's fast form


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## East Winds

Xue Xheng,

I agree about the top six photographs coming from the Yang Long form. They are 1. Turn and Kick : 2. Step Up to raise hands : 3. Chop with Fist : 4. Press from Grasp Birds tail : 5. Don't know??????? : 6. Fan through Back.

Very best wishes


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## grydth

East Winds said:


> Marlon,
> 
> Xue Sheng has pretty much summed it up very well. There is a huge disparity in Yang style teaching and I agree with Xue's take on how that came about. However the current Yang family do teach the martial side and they tend to call their system Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan to distinguish from much of the rubbish masquerading as Yang style. The current form (taught by Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun) is exactly what Yang Cheng-fu left us as his final form. This can be proved by looking at films of Yang Shaou Hou, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen and Tung Ying Chieh. Cheng fu said of this final form "That is it. It cannot be improved upon. To change one thing would be to lose the essence of the form" . Cheng Manching of course did just that!!!!
> 
> Very best wishes



This quote deserves it's own thread to discuss. I will start one.


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## marlon

does Yang family style teach silk reeling?  What exactly is silk reeling? Does CMC style teach silk reeling.
btw i have recently seen some Chen taiji vids from the web..it was like returning home...such bbeauty and power grace...truth...i love it

marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> does Yang family style teach silk reeling? What exactly is silk reeling? Does CMC style teach silk reeling.
> btw i have recently seen some Chen taiji vids from the web..it was like returning home...such bbeauty and power grace...truth...i love it
> 
> marlon


 
The Chen family is big on Silk reeling and if you train with Kwan Sai Hung (in his late 80s and a real live Taoist) who is one of the last living students of Yang Chengfu you will also learn silk reeling but I have not heard that the Yang family is teaching it. 

However East Winds could better answer that question than I.

I do know a CMC style teacher and I will see him this week, I can ask him if CMC trains silk reeling.

Tai Chi Silk Reeling





Silk Reeling
http://www.answers.com/silk reeling

*EDIT:*
sorry, I forgot to add this before

Double Hand Reeling Silk Excercise by Chen Xiaowang
http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/reeling.htm


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## marlon

so silk reeling is a nei qong exercise and used in expressing power?
marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> so silk reeling is a nei qong exercise and used in expressing power?
> marlon


 
It is also, from a Chen stand point, teaching you how to use your intention to move qi to move your body instead of muscular movement as well. 

If you can get a hold of a video of any of the Chen family doing silk reeling and then watch one of them do the form you will see it is very much a part of Chen Taiji. 

If you do a silk reeling exercise and say just swing your arm in a circle it is not silk reeling. It is relaxed movement but not soft it is flowing and not choppy and it teaches some Taiji basics as far as the Chen family is concerned and it helps link the legs the waist and the arms as well as other things

If you can do silk reeling you will find it easier to understand jing and fajing as well. This doesn't mean that you will be a master of it just you will have a better idea of what it is and how it works. It can also help with sandao as well. Or at least that was my experience with it. 

Also somewhere I have a book form the Chen family, I believe in it they discuss silk reeling, if you like I will look to see what they say about it and PM you the pertinent bits, as well as the title of the book. 

It has been a while since I trained silk reeling but you are currently contributing to me seriously considering starting it again, Thanks :asian:


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## marlon

thank you XS. i have seen the silk reeling on a chen site...taijichen.com i think.  I hope you do find the book.  I notice the Chen's seem to emphasize more that the forms and the postures help one to react / respond as needed i.e. according to the prinicples of taiji rather than saying that the form is taiji as it is implied elsewhere and they seem less concerned by variant forms.  Even to the point of saying make sure it stands the test of time more than anything else.  Also, they tend to refer to the 13 postures and the taiji classics as standards of taiji rather than even thier own family forms.  Interesting difference.  But the forms are beautiful.  The site i saw was from a teacher in NZ.
respectfully,
Marlon


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## East Winds

marlon,

"does Yang family style teach silk reeling?  "

Such a simple question. Such a complicated answer :erg:

Chansijin (Silk Reeling) is an integral part of Chen style training.  The Yang Family do not train this. They do however train Chousi  (Drawing Silk). However you will note that Chousi lacks the jin element, which is why what the Yangs do is different from what the Chens do. Yang Zhen Duo has said that the main energy in Yang style is Pung and there is no comaprison with Chansijin. He says if all the emphasis was on Chansijin, then Chen and Yang would be the same. 
However (isn't there always a "however"!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





), there is a school of thought which says that Chansi and Chousi are merely different expressions of the same thing. And yet others say the Chansi is used in the issuing of energy whilst Chousi is used in the gathering of energy. All true systems of Taijiquan will, or should, express at least Chousi. Chansi being seen as belonging exclusively to the Chens.

Hope this helps a bit

Very best wishes


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## marlon

Thanks east winds...where does yang taiji mostly practice fajing?  i see it clearly i the chen forms and know that the yang style has but where do they train it?  thanks again
Respectfully,
marlon


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## East Winds

marlon,

The Yang form (as of course should every other form of taijiquan) expresses fajin at the ending point of each posture, i.e. the extreme Yang aspect of the posture. It is just less overt than that expressed by the Chens. And of course we develop it by the use of chousi.

Very best wishes


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## marlon

thanks again east winds

marlon


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## marlon

has anyone heard what chen style thinks of yang and vice verca?

respectfully,
marlon


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## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> has anyone heard what chen style thinks of yang and vice verca?
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
I can only tell you what my Yang sifu says about Chen style, He likes CHen style but he says "it is to low"

And what a Chen family member once told me about yang style, "It's to high"


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## Nobody

My teacher said that as well Xue Sheng, but adds this that it is easier to see the application with Chen than with Yang.  He is suggesting the idea of when one looks at or does a form in largest circle the body can travel is often the easiest to understand for most people.  My instructor does prefer the Yang himself.


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## Xue Sheng

Nobody said:


> My teacher said that as well Xue Sheng, but adds this that it is easier to see the application with Chen than with Yang. He is suggesting the idea of when one looks at or does a form in largest circle the body can travel is often the easiest to understand for most people. My instructor does prefer the Yang himself.


 
My Sifus full statement about Yang vs. Chen is similar and he adds that where Chen is likely to hit you with fajing Yang is likely to circle and redirect. Both are good and both are very capable of putting their opponent on the ground, they just approach it slightly differently.
My Sifu only does Yang and that is all he has done for many many years but he does like what he sees the Chen family doing. 

He has said that there is more fajing in Chen that Yang and Yang tends to be softer than Chen but he likes the way Yang handles things better.


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## Nobody

The instructor i am talking about only does Yang as well he would say the same about Yang that your instructor is saying an believe that it is do to silk reeling that fajing is more use in Chen plus the lack of mobility of the stance for Chen.  

The height of the stance has a different effect to me on the way to affect incoming strike. This is my opinion.  For me Chen is more toward throwing than Yang,  Chen do to the height of the stance the use of your own body weight with that of your opponent is what often gets them thrown.  I do Chen an can say that it is easier for me to throw someone with Chen than Yang, but yang is easier to control the opponent who is usually unaware of where the reading force is actually going that seems to be what yang trains the most is reading.  Yang seems to use traps an take downs more when fighting someone that is using more strikes.


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