# form



## firerex (Feb 19, 2009)

are there forms in karate and if there are can anyone tell me where i can get info on them, or can anyone give me info on them


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## jks9199 (Feb 19, 2009)

In Japanese and Okinawan karate, forms are called kata.  There are lots of threads and discussions here and elsewhere about them.  It's a huge topic...


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## astrobiologist (Feb 19, 2009)

Ya, most karate styles have a number of kata (forms).  You will really have to just do an internet search to find out info about them, as there's too much to really reveal here.

When you search try:

Isshin ryu kata

Goju ryu kata

Shotokan Kata

and so on...


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## Grenadier (Feb 19, 2009)

Poomse and Kata can be classified as essentially the same thing, although as you already know, there are dozens of poomse / kata out there, and that each system could very well have their own version of a particular form.  

Shito Ryu Karate has the most kata out of Karate systems out there, with Shotokan Karate, Shorin Ryu Karate, etc., having a good number as well (but not nearly as many).  Systems like Wado Ryu don't have quite as many.  

Here's a wiki page on the listings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate_kata


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 19, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> Here's a wiki page on the listings:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate_kata



Thanks, I had never seen that page.  I think it is incorrect with respect to the Isshinryu empty-hand kata.  There are only 8:

Seisan
Wansu
Seiuchin
Sunsu
Sanchin
Chinto
Naihanchi
Kusanku

I've never heard of some of the others listed for Isshinryu:

Niseishi/Nijushiho
Pinan/Heian
Seipai

I'm just a beginner, so perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think the three above are part of Isshinryu.


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## dancingalone (Feb 19, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks, I had never seen that page.  I think it is incorrect with respect to the Isshinryu empty-hand kata.  There are only 8:
> 
> Seisan
> Wansu
> ...




And those eight are ample for a lifetime of study.  I sometimes wonder what masters like Mabuni were thinking when they incorporated so many kata into their systems.  Perhaps he thought you were supposed to specialize into a few at some point?  I know it's all I can do to just keep up with the ones I know.  I can't imagine trying to practice all 50+(?) shito-ryu kata.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 19, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> And those eight are ample for a lifetime of study.  I sometimes wonder what masters like Mabuni were thinking when they incorporated so many kata into their systems.  Perhaps he thought you were supposed to specialize into a few at some point?  I know it's all I can do to just keep up with the ones I know.  I can't imagine trying to practice all 50+(?) shito-ryu kata.



I'm just starting out, but I can see it's going to be a long, long, time for me.  My sensei started me on Sanchin, which he says I may never master, given that I'm already 48, but to keep trying.  I'm halfway through Seisan, it's a crime the way I am butchering it, but I'm working on it.


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## dancingalone (Feb 19, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm just starting out, but I can see it's going to be a long, long, time for me.  My sensei started me on Sanchin, which he says I may never master, given that I'm already 48, but to keep trying.  I'm halfway through Seisan, it's a crime the way I am butchering it, but I'm working on it.




I've been doing Sanchin for nearly twenty years and I still think I've done it well perhaps once or twice.  It's not called Three Battles for no reason - I find it difficult to 'escape' sufficiently for all three components to work in harmony. 

Isshinryu karate-ka do have it a bit tough to have Seisan as their first 'fighting' kata.  Most styles give beginners a simple h-pattern to start with.   Good luck with your training.


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## Grenadier (Feb 19, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Niseishi/Nijushiho
> Pinan/Heian
> Seipai
> 
> I'm just a beginner, so perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think the three above are part of Isshinryu.


 
Nijushiho / Niseishi is common amongst several styles.  I wouldn't doubt it if some Isshinryu schools added it to their cirriculum, since it's a really good kata for teaching acceleration of advanced techniques.  I do know that the Shuri Ryu Karate system even has its own version called Nandansho.  

Pinan or Heian are several easier kata that were taken from Kusanku, since Kusanku is a very long kata (64 moves).  Trying to get a beginner or intermediate student, especially a child, to perform Kata Kusanku would be rather difficult.  There are many debates over this, but the most common belief is that Itosu Ankoh took elements of Kusanku and created several kata, each of which focussed on a particular aspect, and came out with the Pinan kata series (Heian in Shotokan).  

Looking back at this, it was a pretty clever move, since it was easier to focus on a smaller range of techniques at a particular time, and develop the quality of those said techniques, and then move on once someone has demonstrated the appropriate proficiency.  Once they have all 5 Pinan / Heian to the required skill level, then they learn Kusanku (Kanku Dai in Shotokan).  

If a particular school teaches Kusanku / Kanku Dai, then I wouldn't find it unusual if they chose to break it down by teaching the Pinan Kata, even if it's not normally part of the style's cirriculum.  

Still, though, you're right, that it's a list that constantly needs refinement, and if you can find some good references on the system, then I'd strongly recommend editing the Wiki page to include the correct information.  After all, anyone can edit it, and the more informed minds contribute, the better the page gets.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 19, 2009)

I appreciate the information, thanks!  I personally don't feel qualified to modify the Wiki on the Isshinryu kata, but I'll mention it to others.

As to the possible 'modifications' to the kata in some Isshinryu schools, I understand.  My dojo is very traditional.  My sensei's masters were/are Masters Long and Mitchum, and if Master Shimabuku didn't do it, we don't do it.  Not saying that's right or wrong, just noting we do it as we believe Tatsuo Shimabuku did it.


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## twendkata71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I am not aware of any Isshin ryu schools teaching the Pinan series of kata. Shimabuku O sensei, did not include them. 
Not that it would hurt to learn them.


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## RoninSoul (Feb 19, 2009)

Ya, when i was training in Shorin Ji Ryu the first Katas were Pinans. In Shotokan they are Heians. 5 of them, my fav has always been Hiean Yondon. I also am rather fond of Basai Dai and Ninjushiho katas. Look up Frank Brennan or Lucca Valdesi on YouTube, they are very very good.


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## searcher (Feb 19, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks, I had never seen that page. I think it is incorrect with respect to the Isshinryu empty-hand kata. There are only 8:
> 
> Seisan
> Wansu
> ...


 

Bill, you are right on the money.   The other kata listed are not in the I-ryu system.   But do not forget that Shimabuku, studied the kata and chose to not add them in.


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