# 1st World Teakwondo Poomsae Championships



## TKDDAD (Jan 19, 2007)

Hi, Incase anyone is interested the World Taekwondo Federation has some video footage posted on their web site from the 1st World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships - 04-06 September 2006. I don't know how long the video will remain available, so I provide link to each video with a little detail.

1.) What I am interested in is a critique of what were some obvious flaws in some of the performances. 

2.) Who demostrated the best example of a perticular stance, kick, or block. (I know there are many names for each stance, kick, or block.

3.) Do you agree or disagree who won what medal based on the performace given. For example I feel that GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark should have won Gold. Just don't understand what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performance better.

I hope this is of interest to some of you.

P.S. I mis-spelled Taekwondo in the title, can a mod fix that. Thanks.

Best Regards
TKDDAD.


1st World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships - 04-06 September 2006 - WTF Videos.

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0001.wmv - 16,906 KB Size 6:46 Min
Individual Junior Female (14-18)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Vanesa Leon                Spain            Koryo        00:00-01:06    0:45
2.    Bronze    Vanesa Leon                Spain            Taebaek    01:07-01:50    0:35    
3.    Silver    Ozlem Kansik            Turkey        Taebaek    01:51-02:51    0:38
4.    Silver    Ozlem Kansik            Turkey        Koryo        02:52-03:56 0:53
5.    Gold      Lee Na-Yeon                Korea            Koryo        03:57-05:09    0:54
6.    Gold      Lee Na-Yeon                Korea            Taebaek    05:10-06:03 0:40

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0002.wmv - 18,118 KB Size 7:11 Min
Individual Junior Male (14-18)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Lu Chu-Sheng            Chinses Taipei    Taegeuk 8    00:00-01:02    0:45
2.     Bronze    Lu Chu-Sheng            Chinses Taipei    Keumgang    01:03-02:26    1:02
3.     Silver    Nadali Najafabadi            Iran            Taegeuk 8    02:27-03:24    0:47
4.     Silver    Nadali Najafabadi            Iran            Koryo        03:25-04:27    0:53
5.    Gold        Jang Jae-Uk                Korea            Taegeuk 8    04:28-05:32    0:46
6.    Gold        Jang Jae-Uk                Korea            Koryo        05:33-06:43    0:53

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0003.wmv - 13,977 Size 5:36 Min
Individual Senior 1st Division Female (19-30)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Beaujean Claudia            Germany        Koryo        00:00-01:17    0:52
2.    Silver    Laura Kim Kim            Spain            Koryo        01:18-02:32    0:51
3.    Gold        Hong Hee-Jeong            Korea            Sipjin    02:33-04:03    1:09
4.    Gold        Hong Hee-Jeong            Korea            Taebaek    04:04-04:47    0:37

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0004.wmv - 18,327 Size 7:20 Min
Individual Senior 1st Division Male (19-30)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Ali Salmani Azarkhavarani    Iran            Taebaek    00:00-00:51    0:37
2.     Bronze    Ali Salmani Azarkhavarani    Iran            Sipjin    00:52-02:10    1:14
3.     Silver    Nguyen Dinh Toan            Vietnam        Taebaek    02:11-03:04    0:39
4.     Silver    Nguyen Dinh Toan            Vietnam        Sipjin    03:05-04:23 1:08
5.    Gold        Kim Bo-Hyeon            Korea            Taebaek    04:24-05:14    0:36
6.    Gold        Kim Bo-Hyeon            Korea            Taebaek    05:15-06:40    1:16

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0005.wmv - 16,289 size 6:31 min
Individual Senior 1st Division Female (31-40)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Josefina Lopez            Spain            Sipjin    00:00-01:28    1:06
2.     Silver    Nesibe Altun            Turkey        Keumgang    01:29-03:01    1:12
3.     Silver    Nesibe Altun            Turkey        Taebaek    03:02-03:57    0:42
4.    Gold        Song Nam-Jeong            Korea            Pyongwon    03:58-04:56    0:36
5.    Gold        Song Nam-Jeong            Korea            Taebaek    04:57-05:44    0:38


http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0006.wmv - 22,730 Size 9:07 Min
Individual Master 1st Division Female (41-50)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Carmela Hartnett            Australia        Sipjin    00:00-01:41    1:19
2.    Bronze    Carmela Hartnett            Australia        Jitae        01:42-03:02    1:01    
3.     Silver    Forca Le Bas Sybille        France        Jitae        03:03-04:13    0:51
4.     Silver    Forca Le Bas Sybille        France        Chonkwon    04:14-05:31    1:10
5.    Gold        Lee Mi-Ok                Korea            Jitae        05:32-06:50    0:59
6.    Gold        Lee Mi-Ok                Korea            Chonkwon    06:51-08:20    1:13


http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0007.wmv - 20,513 Size 9:57 min
Individual Master 1st Division Male (41-50)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Seyed Hassan Zehedi        Iran            Keumgang    00:00-01:34    1:15
2.    Bronze    Seyed Hassan Zehedi        Iran            Chonkwon    01:35-03:04    1:15
3.     Silver    Ky Tu Dang                Denmark        Keumgang    03:05-04:35    1:10
3.     Silver    Ky Tu Dang                Denmark        Chonkwon    04:36-06:10    1:17
4.    Gold        Lee Seong-Woo            Korea            Keumgang    06:11-07:34    1:04
6.    Gold        Lee Seong-Woo            Korea            Chonkwon    07:35-09:10    1:19

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0008.wmv - 18,659 Size 9:03 min
Individual Master 2nd Division Female (51+)

Vid    Medal        Name                    Country        Poomsae    Vid-Pos    Time
1.    Bronze    Rosa Ruiz Perez            Spain            Sipjin    00:00-01:34    1:06
2.    Bronze    Rosa Ruiz Perez            Spain            Jitae        01:35-02:48    0:58
3.     Silver    Bronwyn Butterworth        Australia        Sipjin    02:49-04:12 0:57
3.     Silver    Bronwyn Butterworth        Australia        Hansu        04:13-05:12 0:40
4.    Gold        Jang Chung-Hee            Korea            Sipjin    05:13-06:50    1:09
6.    Gold        Jang Chung-Hee            Korea            Jitae        06:51-08:17    0:59


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## Miles (Jan 19, 2007)

There is a 2 dvd set on the Championships which came out in October.  I bought it at the USAT Sr. Nationals.  It is available from Vision whose website is www.mykick.com.  

Miles


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## wade (Jan 19, 2007)

Thanks to both of you. 3 of my friends competed here in the states and made the US team, as you can see none of them medaled in Korea but it was a real learning experience in forms and politics. :uhyeah:


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## TKDDAD (Jan 20, 2007)

*Miles* - I have already ordered the DVD back in Dec 2006, but it is on back order until the first week of March 2006. Beings you have the DVD can you tell if it shows how the judges scored each of the performances. Does it show when a deduction was given. I would like to find out what your  opions and observations you noted when you veiwed the performances.

Also, Can you give me some insight to what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performances better than GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark performances.

*wade* - I would be interested in learning and hearing about those experiences.

I am also, interested in finding some videos from the 2006-0714 NASTO 1st Poomse Natl Team Trials held in California. I have yet to be able to find any so far. One of the competitors Monica Marshall was from my son's old dojang and she placed 4th in the Female 31-40 Division.

I am also interested in finding out when and where the next US Poomsae Natl Team Trials will be held. So far there hasn't been any information that I can find.

*Perfection in the martial arts is like a jewel. It is merely a rough stone until polished. If it is not polished, no one will know its inner beauty. Training is the same.*​


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## mango.man (Jan 20, 2007)

TKDDAD,

Nothing has been announced about the next team trials yet.

As for videos from the first team trials, if you like I can give you access to the video I have of my daughter at the team trials.  I guess you can use it as a guide of what not to do, since she ended up 16th out of 19 in her division and did not make it out of the first round.   Good for her for trying it though.


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## TKDDAD (Jan 20, 2007)

*mango.man* - That would be nice, an 8.20 isn't a bad score. Plus, I already ready have some of her's other competitions even the one where she was robbed of several points while her opponent got a ghost point for no contact at the 2006 Jimmy Kim Invitational.​


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## mango.man (Jan 20, 2007)

I have sent you a private message with instructions on how to get the video.

That whole Jimmy Kim thing still has everyone who has seen the video scratching their heads.  There was an IR scoring the match (Dr Thackrey) and the other 2 corners were typically good judges as well as we have seen them several times.

On the brightside, that match made my daughter realize that when she goes in the ring she needs to really try to dominate so that the judges have no doubt who the winner should be.  

If you watch the 06 Beach Cities video, her first fight is against the same girl she "lost" to at Jimmy Kim's.  My daughter beat her 9-2 to avenge her "loss" at Jimmy Kim's.


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## TKDDAD (Jan 20, 2007)

*mango.man* - Just finished watching the video. She looked like she was very nervous and was rushing a bit. But a good effort none the less and a great experience for her. My son wasn't old enough last year to go. This year he will be old enough to enter and if he does well in the US Open, I hope to be able to enter him.

Thanks for sharing your video.

Best Regards,
TKDDAD​


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## Laurentkd (Jan 21, 2007)

This should maybe be a new thread but...

After watching these videos I am curious how many of you do stances as they are done in these examples.  My hay-day of competing ended about 8 years ago, but at that time everybody's stances were much deeper than they seem to be now at most tournaments (especially back and horse).  I know that shallower stances is also the example Kukkiwon is giving us as well, but I just can't give up the deeper stances.  I think they show so much more than shallow stances and  I think forms look much more impressive with low stances.  Of course they aren't as practical as far as self defense goes, but they sure make the legs stronger.  And while I know that poomse can and does help our self-defense I do not feel that is the true purpose of poomse (definitely another topic for another time).  I don't know, I know if I say I am a Kukkiwon Black Belt I should do things the way they say to do them (if I could possibly keep up with the changes!), but I just can't seem to give up my deep stances.  
What do you think?


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## zDom (Jan 22, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> This should maybe be a new thread but...
> 
> After watching these videos I am curious how many of you do stances as they are done in these examples.  My hay-day of competing ended about 8 years ago, but at that time everybody's stances were much deeper than they seem to be now at most tournaments (especially back and horse).  I know that shallower stances is also the example Kukkiwon is giving us as well, but I just can't give up the deeper stances.  I think they show so much more than shallow stances and  I think forms look much more impressive with low stances.  Of course they aren't as practical as far as self defense goes, but they sure make the legs stronger.  And while I know that poomse can and does help our self-defense I do not feel that is the true purpose of poomse (definitely another topic for another time).  I don't know, I know if I say I am a Kukkiwon Black Belt I should do things the way they say to do them (if I could possibly keep up with the changes!), but I just can't seem to give up my deep stances.
> What do you think?



I am "retired" from TKD, so to speak, but for the record: I will NEVER give up my low stances.

"High stances for mobility and low stances for stability."

Deep stances, as you pointed out, are also better training. Someone with deep stances can always go shallower, but someone who trains shallow stances won't be able to go deeper if they need to.

In sparring/fighting, most of the time it is a high stance. But if you want to really hit someone hard with a reverse punch, front stance adds body weight to the technique &#8212; and a deep stance is more powerful.

As far as aesthetics: deep stances (deep, CORRECT stances &#8212; not exaggerated to the point where they look silly) will always get better scores from me when I'm on a panel. High stances (for things like back, front, horse stance) look lazy and weak.

This movement toward high (front, back, horse) stances is bad for taekwondo, IMO.


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## mango.man (Jan 22, 2007)

zDom said:


> As far as aesthetics: deep stances (deep, CORRECT stances  not exaggerated to the point where they look silly) will always get better scores from me when I'm on a panel. High stances (for things like back, front, horse stance) look lazy and weak.


 
And that is where the problem lies with forms competition.  People want to judge based on their personal standards and preferences as opposed to simply whether or not the competitor did it right according to the governance of the sanctioning body of the event.


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## Gizmo (Jan 23, 2007)

First of all, thanks for posting the links.



TKDDAD said:


> For example I feel that GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark should have won Gold. Just don't understand what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performance better.



You are not alone here. I also think that Master Kytu's performance was way better...

Gizmo


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## terryl965 (Jan 23, 2007)

mango.man said:


> And that is where the problem lies with forms competition. People want to judge based on their personal standards and preferences as opposed to simply whether or not the competitor did it right according to the governance of the sanctioning body of the event.


 

I do not believe it is personal standerds that is the problem I believe it is lack of really understanding the concept of each and every poomsae. In TKD even OLympic style to many people teach the way they was tought and not really by the Kukkiwon Textt Book and most are not up to date on changes that are made until years later. If as an ARt or sport to be taken seriously we have to unite as one and come together on the way it is to be done.


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## zDom (Jan 23, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> I do not believe it is personal standerds that is the problem I believe it is lack of really understanding the concept of each and every poomsae. In TKD even OLympic style to many people teach the way they was tought and not really by the Kukkiwon Textt Book and most are not up to date on changes that are made until years later. If as an ARt or sport to be taken seriously we have to unite as one and come together on the way it is to be done.



I agree.

And changes in _base concepts_ every couple of years simply to change  or worse, to make it "less Japanese"  is corrupting the art, IMO.

Furthermore  who is making these changes? If *KKW President Uhm* is not making them and/or approving of them (and remember: he had a hand in coming up with the forms in the first place!) and letting GM ED Sell know about the changes (who would then let my buddy Tim Wall know, who would then let ME know), then why should I bother to change?

So who IS making these changes? WTF "officials"?

WTF specialists aren't exactly known for their form ability.

It seems to me (and someone set me straight if I'm wrong here) that we have WTF hacks changing the forms so everybody does them like THEY do them: weak.

Sorry if that's harsh, but this is the impression I'm getting, and I'll say it again: it is BAD for taekwondo.

I'm not saying that people should drop into deep stances during an Olympic sparring match, btw. But changing taekwondo so people who have never given a damn about forms in the first place are the ones winning forms championships so they can have TWO trophies instead of one is, well: its just wrong.


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## Miles (Jan 23, 2007)

TKDDAD said:


> *Miles* - I have already ordered the DVD back in Dec 2006, but it is on back order until the first week of March 2006. Beings you have the DVD can you tell if it shows how the judges scored each of the performances. Does it show when a deduction was given. I would like to find out what your  opions and observations you noted when you veiwed the performances.
> 
> Also, Can you give me some insight to what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performances better than GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark performances.​



I think the posted link is exactly what is on the DVD.  The latter is just a little clearer (though it may be my computer is not as good with the downloaded video compared to the DVD). 

I personally prefer Ky Tu Dang's performance but his punches are a shade high and his cadence is a little unorthodox (which is probably why he is so successful on the open tournament circuit).  I thought his balance in Keumgang was better though his suspended knee was a bit low.  I thought he had better power than GM Lee.

BTW, MSUTKD-isn't the IR behind Ky Tu Dang one of the referees from Cleveland?

Miles


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## Laurentkd (Jan 23, 2007)

zDom said:


> I agree.
> 
> And changes in _base concepts_ every couple of years simply to change  or worse, to make it "less Japanese"  is corrupting the art, IMO.
> 
> ...


 
I am with you again here.  I have not been to the Kukkiwon Instructor seminar and so I am sure there are others here more knowledgeable then I, but there are SO many "WTF approved" books and videos out there (new ones all the time) that are drastically different, how can we attempt to decide what is really  "correct."  My (and my sahbomnim's) take on it is until we hear different from my Grandmaster we don't change anything.


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## TKDDAD (Jan 24, 2007)

Miles said:


> I think the posted link is exactly what is on the DVD.  The latter is just a little clearer (though it may be my computer is not as good with the downloaded video compared to the DVD).
> 
> I personally prefer Ky Tu Dang's performance but his punches are a shade high and his cadence is a little unorthodox (which is probably why he is so successful on the open tournament circuit).  I thought his balance in Keumgang was better though his suspended knee was a bit low.  I thought he had better power than GM Lee.
> 
> ...



*Miles* - Thanks for your comments about Ky Tu Dang's performance. How is Lu Chu-Sheng            Chinses Taipei    Keumgang balance. Is it a good example of how it should be executed? If not, what do you think needs to be changed to make it more correct?


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## wade (Jan 24, 2007)

To TKDDAD. I asked them if they would like to give their opinions in open forum for those that were interested and all of them said...........no. If you watch the Video's of the various medal winners and their forms and all the variations they use, well, uh, I wasn't there so I really can't say anything about it either. Sorry. I can say they were not happy, but that is just my opinion.


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## terryl965 (Jan 25, 2007)

wade said:


> To TKDDAD. I asked them if they would like to give their opinions in open forum for those that were interested and all of them said...........no. If you watch the Video's of the various medal winners and their forms and all the variations they use, well, uh, I wasn't there so I really can't say anything about it either. Sorry. I can say they were not happy, but that is just my opinion.


 

Wade alot of people was not happy with the outcome but that is what is expected at these types of events. Sometime the best win, but mostly it is not and that is my opinion


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## TKDDAD (Jan 25, 2007)

wade said:


> To TKDDAD. I asked them if they would like to give their opinions in open forum for those that were interested and all of them said...........no. If you watch the Video's of the various medal winners and their forms and all the variations they use, well, uh, I wasn't there so I really can't say anything about it either. Sorry. I can say they were not happy, but that is just my opinion.



I was hoping to get more feedback on who demostrated the best example of a certain type of seogi (stance), makki (defense or blocking) techniques, jireugi (punching), or chagi (kicking). For example the *Tongmilgi junbi seogi (pushing-hands                                              ready stance) *for Koryo form. I have seen the finger tips push out at eye level and philtrum (the indentation just under the nose) level. Which is technically the correct way of doing it. Do the judges deduct a 0.10 point if it done at eye level or philtrum level?

I wasn't looking for opinion of how the judging was done, but rather what are the judges looking for and what was the best example of it.

Best Regards,
TKDDAD


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## wade (Jan 26, 2007)

Well, after watching the videos and seeing so many variations, my opinion, I think it more depended on what judges you had than what was right or wrong. The ones I talked to didn't really go into the technical detail too much with me cause I must admit I tend to fall asleep on them when they do, sorry............................................


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## IcemanSK (Feb 6, 2007)

Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but the 2006 World's are also on youtube.com




 
This is a sample. They're under "poomsae championship." It's interesting to watch.


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## trevorrice (Feb 13, 2007)

Master Dang, should have won his execution was perfect.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 13, 2007)

I only watched a small portion (the jr female) and the first senior male (41-50) and was perplexed. Watching Koryo, I noticed certain elements that have been changed(?) from what I was originally showed. A couple of movements I thought were actually wrong, unless they have been officially changed. Examples; opening double sidekicks were to be done at upper shin/knee area and lower chest/stomach area. They did ankle/lower shin and head. The first triple snap kicks were to be followed with a throat grab with the body arching downward, they maintained a ridged upright stance. The arching of the arms coming together in the movement before turning into the final triple movement was always done one one leg and the arms and leg(s) came together at the same time (showed balance and strength). They had both legs together and just brought the arms together. I saw some other minor variations, but these really stuck out to me.

Just reviewing these, showed me the best IMO did not win. but it looks like politics is an ever present constant.


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## zDom (Feb 13, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> The first triple snap kicks were to be followed with a throat grab with the body arching downward, they maintained a ridged upright stance.



Hmm. I was taught that sequence as tiger-mouth strikes to the throat, not grabs.

And you were taught body arching downward? Really? 

Anybody else out there learn it that way?


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 13, 2007)

Scott, this is from the kukkiwon web site. On frame 12-2 of Koryo, notice the downward position of the hand. He's not as bent over because he's posing for the camera, but the hand/arm position dictates the correct position. According to the text accompaning the picture, it's a grab, but not for the throat. Something I just learned myself, but I was at least half right.


http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03_9.jsp?div=04


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## zDom (Feb 13, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> Scott, this is from the kukkiwon web site. On frame 12-2 of Koryo, notice the downward position of the hand. He's not as bent over because he's posing for the camera, but the hand/arm position dictates the correct position. According to the text accompaning the picture, it's a grab, but not for the throat. Something I just learned myself, but I was at least half right.
> 
> 
> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03_9.jsp?div=04




Ahhh my bad: I know where you are talking about now.

THAT (as it was taught to me) is catching a kick (passing it by and holding it at the hip) and breaking the knee. I was taught as shown: standing upright (albeit with a deep front stance, not a walking front stance).

I was taught to break with a downward palm strike as opposed to what appears to be a tiger-mouth strike on that site.


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