# Stand-up Fighting



## hapki-bujutsu (Nov 4, 2003)

thoughts on this article?

STAND-UP FIGHTING 
- VS - 
GROUND FIGHTING 
To begin with, the use of the word versus (abbreviated to VS) is inappropriate, because the dictionary defines "Versus" as "Against". In order to participate in Stand-up fighting you must be standing and in order to do ground fighting you must be on the ground, so they can't be against each other. 

That may seem a little tongue in cheek but it was meant to be. The real point I'm trying to make is that they are two distinctly different kinds of fighting and should be thought of as such. 

Those who teach ground fighting love to quote the statistic, that 95% of all fights end up on the ground. I would agree if they said that 95% of all of their fights wind up on the ground but to say that 95% of all fights end up on the ground, I feel, is far too broad a statement. 

If you are talking about a trained boxer fighting a non trained person I doubt seriously the percentage would be, even remotely, near that figure. If you're talking about a trained kick-boxer fighting a trained boxer, again, I doubt the figure is anywhere near accurate. If you are talking about a Karateka against either of the two aforementioned fighters, again I doubt the fight would go to the ground and if it did you can be confident they'd both regain their feet as soon as possible, as would two Karateka fighting each other. Why? Because we are trained stand-up fighters. 

Now, what happens if the fight does go to the ground? Would it be advantageous to have ground fighting training? Of course it would! Why would anyone think otherwise. If a stand-up fighter finds himself on the ground against a trained ground fighter, is he at a disadvantage? Of course he is! If the UFC has taught us nothing else, it has certainly illustrated that point clearly enough. 

On the other hand, what if the ground fighter finds himself on the ground happily doing his thing when a second opponent comes up and kicks him in the head? Not a good place to be. Would he have been better off on his feet and more mobile? Definitely! Another question comes to mind. How many fights do you imagine have started on the ground? I have a feeling the answer is, very few. Ever see two guys crawl across a bar room floor and start fighting? (More tongue in cheek.) 

So, if in all probability, the fight is going to start standing up, that's where your first training should be! The fight should also end there..... for you.....not him.....he should end up on the ground.... alone.....you get to go home. 

Logically, ground fighting has it's place and now that it's becoming more popular and more people have been trained in it, there's an even greater necessity for a stand-up fighter to avail himself of supplemental ground training. It's also nice to know you can end the fight right then and there without having to get back up. 

Now comes the hard part. Where do you get this ground training? Unless you happen to live in a metropolitan area you're probably going to have to rely on video. Therein lies the problem. We've trained with the people who have trained with the people and we've investigated and analyzed the most popular videos. Unfortunately if these techniques aren't done properly your opponent could be lying there ordering lunch for all the discomfort you're causing him. This type of training verifiably requires a hands-on approach. Until you can be tutored during the actual application of a technique, with your partner acknowledging your effectiveness, you're chances of doing it correctly are less than fair. There's another very negative aspect to this kind of training. If you do it correctly in the first place and you have no experience or background it's all too easy to go just a little too far and crank your partners joint out of it's socket. He'll spend the next several months recovering at great expense both physically and financially and you loose a partner. The whole thing seems to be a catch 22 situation. 

The Karate Connection has researched this conundrum at length. In the final analysis we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be practical to do it on video the way we have done our system, because of the hands-on necessity. I guess Ed Parker put it best when he said, "To hear is to disbelieve, to see is to be deceived.....feeling is believing!" I wish I had a buck for every time I heard him say that. 

We considered the situation from every possible angle and couldn't see any way of truly teaching ground fighting, no matter who the Instructor was going to be and we had some great offers from some great people. It still came out, if he can't be there with you to physically move your bodies into the proper positions, all he'd be doing is demonstrating something and we would have no idea if you were really getting or not, so we decided to leave it alone. That way, at least we would never be responsible for people thinking they've learned something they really had not. The worse combination there is, is over confident and under trained. 

I have experimented in Kenpo by physically moving my students with hands-on prompting and found it was actually counterproductive. Our moves can be better learned without touching the student. We can visually observe when they have it and are doing it correctly. It's very evident to us, unlike the ground fighting training. So, as much as I wish I had better news for you, you're on your own out there, when it comes to that kind of education, at least for now. 

One final observation on this subject. You're going to get hurt, It will happen, count on it. Hopefully, it will only be a hurt as opposed to an injury. I know the dictionary gives each of those words as a synonym for the other but I have a slightly different feeling for them. A hurt goes away in a short time. You rub it or shake it off and it goes away, An injury requires stitches, x-rays, setting, surgery, crutches, doctors and or hospitals. I've been hurt lots of times but in all these years in Kenpo, injured only twice, (stitches and an x-ray) and then once within the few months I participated in ground fighting, (Orthopedic doctor, crutches and a knee brace) but I'm mostly healed now and I can't wait to get back to the ground. It's just something I enjoy. Go figure. However, this time I'll be more careful. That big black knee brace with the steel braces up the sides, I now have to wear whenever I workout, will act as a constant reminder.


----------



## Karazenpo (Nov 4, 2003)

Yeah, Hapki, pretty informative article. As I have posted before, I'm a firm believer in groundfighting as one of the four ways of fighting and like I said before the four ways of fighting were originally popularized by James M. Mitose, even though I have heard others take credit for it. What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jui Jitsu) by James Mitose. The book is broken down page by page on the Tracy website. It was written in 1947 but due to lack of funds, wasn't published until 1953. I'm not going to put a per cent on it but anyone can end up on the ground in a fight regardless of your abilities period and if someone doesn't prepare for it-well, shame on them. It's, as they say, 'Pay me now or pay me later'. Again, as I have stated, you, yourself may decide to go to the ground as an option (ex. single leg or double leg takedown into a choker/sleeper) against a worthy opponent who is equaling you or outclassing you upright. Take him out of his element and you have an alternative way of defeating him. It is all part of being a well rounded combatant. Respectfully submitted.


----------



## J-kid (Nov 5, 2003)

Well todays MMAist has a awsome stand up and ground game but when you talk about boxer vs boxer usally they would tie up and fall rolling around until someone ether gets up or finds them self on top of the other person (of course using the postion to drop hey makers on them from above) making it nearly impossible for the other boxer who was unlucky enough who ended up on bottem has no chance.

In boxing you end up tieing up all the time and have to break up when tied up.


----------



## ace (Nov 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> *thoughts on this article?
> 
> STAND-UP FIGHTING
> ...




Did U happen to see the first UFC or WCC
There were Many Striker Vs Striker Fights
all which Ended up on The Ground..

Ok Ok Flash faward KOTC
Duwayne Ludewig(Muy Thai) Vs  Shad Smith(3 time Golden Gloves Boxing Champ)

With in 30 seconds of The Fight Both Guy's Were 
on the Ground.
it did make it back to the feet & ended there but
it could have ended Quicker Had either had
the proper Ground Skills.

There Are Many Grerat Stand up Fighters
Who have Learned The Grouind Game inorder
to Make it in MMA Bas Rutten is a good Front Runner
He Realised after a few losses it was Time To learn the Ground 
game & became veery good at it

Another Would Be Marco Ruas

At The Same Time There are several Good Grapplers
Who Have Learn The Stand up Fighting Game
to complement There Ground Skills
Frank Shamrock & Vitor Belfort

At This Point in Reality Fighting
U have to have Both U have To beable to fight
on Your Feet & on The Ground.


----------



## jkn75 (Nov 11, 2003)

Not to be flippant, but this article already says what most of us already know: 1. to be a well rounded fighter you need both stand-up and ground fighting skill 2. To get this instruction, hands on is the best. 



> *One final observation on this subject. You're going to get hurt, It will happen, count on it. Hopefully, it will only be a hurt as opposed to an injury. I know the dictionary gives each of those words as a synonym for the other but I have a slightly different feeling for them. A hurt goes away in a short time. You rub it or shake it off and it goes away, An injury requires stitches, x-rays, setting, surgery, crutches, doctors and or hospitals. I've been hurt lots of times but in all these years in Kenpo, injured only twice, (stitches and an x-ray) and then once within the few months I participated in ground fighting, (Orthopedic doctor, crutches and a knee brace) but I'm mostly healed now and I can't wait to get back to the ground. It's just something I enjoy. Go figure. However, this time I'll be more careful. That big black knee brace with the steel braces up the sides, I now have to wear whenever I workout, will act as a constant reminder. *



The last paragraph is the most puzzling to me. Ground fighting is good because you are unable to train for a couple months and have a lifetime knee injury? How? Somehow we are supposed to see the effectiveness of ground fighting because within a few months, the person has a major injury but Kenpo isn't effective because he wasn't permanently injured.
Does anyone else think this is scary? He says he's responsible but I would be interested to know how.


----------



## MJS (Nov 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> *thoughts on this article?
> 
> STAND-UP FIGHTING
> ...


----------



## LegendaryWarrior (Nov 17, 2003)

Ok, ok Mr. hapki. I've only been on here for not even a week and already I've nearly laughed myself to death. I a real fight, no one care about percentages or statistics. I order to be an effective fighter, you must know a bit of everything. Doesn't matter whether you train in karate, kung-fu, jujitsu, or wind-run-fudokan (   ). Oh wells, can't please 'em all (ha, ha, ha).


----------

