# Stop the Madness



## Kroy (Apr 18, 2003)

It's driving me nuts:erg: everytime I search the net or pick up a martial art magazine I find a new system of MA. When will it stop?
At best the majority of these people are just piecing a little bit of this and a little of that from various systems together and calling it thier creation. Then all of the sudden they become Sokes, Hanshi's, Ultra Suede Turbo Masters (whatever). I got this guy in my city that created his own system and calls himself Great Grand Master (he's not even 30 years old yet) gave himself a 9th degree...aaahhhhhhh!. Sorry guys I'm just venting. What are your veiws?:soapbox:


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 18, 2003)

Those schools will come and go. Only the good instructors will stay around. After people realize the mcdojo thing they will leave one by one.


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## Jay Bell (Apr 18, 2003)

They are dumb.


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## Kroy (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Those schools will come and go. Only the good instructors will stay around. After people realize the mcdojo thing they will leave one by one. *



Yes, but unfortunately they are fooling people. The average guy/girl in the street doesnt know any better. All they see is 9th degree and thats good enough for them, meanwhile the 4th degree instructor who earned his rank is losing potential students.


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## Klondike93 (Apr 18, 2003)

There are some that even for someone with no experience will be able to tell the difference between crap (ie 30 year old GM) and quality instruction (at least I would hope so). I've seen a lot of good and bad in almost 30 years of MA and I still some of the good people around and almost none of the crap, which is a good thing I think.


:asian: 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _*
> All they see is 9th degree and thats good enough for them, meanwhile the 6th degree instructor who earned his rank is losing potential students. *



I can't compete..... that's why I'm calling it quits.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I can't compete..... that's why I'm calling it quits.
> 
> *



 Mr. C....you ARE kidding, right?


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 19, 2003)

I believe he is.i hope


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## jdmills (Apr 19, 2003)

I know of a guy outside Philly that studied TKD.  After studying for about 2 years he took his black belt test and failed since he could not do the required break.  He got mad and left the school.  Six months later he opened his own school about 5 miles away and was now a 7th degree black belt!  He actually was doing very well last I checked and had been in business for about 15 years.

I've sparred with one or two of his students.  It's sad what people can spend their money on.  It seems all about marketing and very little about martial arts which determines school success and unfortunately many people are taken in by claims of a high belt rank.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *Mr. C....you ARE kidding, right?
> *


Nope, I can't compete with those damn magazines that publish anything from anyone ............ I'm quitting!!!!!!!! (reading those publications) ...... they bug me too,  far too many people are naive about what they hear and read at times!

sigh........

Now we know another reason for the saying.........

"To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to believe".

:asian:


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## theletch1 (Apr 19, 2003)

I don't have a big problem with the guy who takes a little here and a little there and and blends it together but for Gods' sake don't call it a "new" system or give yourself some outrageous title like Super Grand Poobah and Keeper of the Eternal Something or other.  If you have the background to be able to blend different aspects from different styles then one should have learned enough discipline not to need the extravagant titles.  I've read on here on many occasions that there is a finite number of ways to manipulate the human body and (essentially) a fininte number of ways to contort your own body when manipulating someone elses body.  Having said that, is there really any such thing as a NEW system?  Should anyone have the right to call themselves the CREATOR of a new system?  We have incorporated ideas and techniques from other styles that augment our kenpo training but have never considered calling it a new system.  When we left our old kempo association and struck out on our own as a stand alone school our curriculum changed to my sifus' first style that he was certified to instruct,which was kenpo.  We took some of the kempo and added it to the kenpo.  We do not call it a new system and the instructor didn't take on a new title.


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## Kalicombat (Apr 19, 2003)

My take is that you cant control other people, unless you are committed to using force, and then you have to pay for it, one way or another, but thats a different story. People will always find a way to capitalize on whatever the-flavor-of -the-month happens to be in the martial arts at any given time. After Royce Gracie won a few UFC's, look at how many people started listing BJJ as one of their arts. Look at how many clubs opened up by people that had never heard of BJJ until Royce layed on his back for a few hours in the octagon. The same thing happened with the Israeli art after it made its way into the pages of all the MA rags. Jennifer Lopez struttin her fine-a$$ on the big screen didnt hurt either. Aikidos popularity picked up after Segal started making films, and how many of us have a dragon sword in our closet, just like the one Duncan McCLeod parlayed around on the Highlander. Capitalizm, mass marketing, looking for an easy BLING BLING. Its as much a part of the martial arts as it is every day life. 

The one remedy for this problem is education. Read, watch, study, train, learn, and recognize bunk when you see it. I came to kenpo as a Kenpo virgin, except for a little stint with the IKCA, and I was exposed to EPAK from the get go. When my instructor relocated, I became a kenpo ronin, no pun intended. I chanced upon an off-shoot system and it filled its place for me. In fact I am still current in that system. But, whenever I had the chance to retake EPAK, I jumped, no actually I chased it. My EPAK instructor happens to live 24 hours away, and my finances as of late has prevented any one-on-ones, but I continue to stay after my EPAK training. 

Kenpo is a state of mind, a life style, a passion. It is engrained in ones fabric. Distance cant stop it. Lack of money cant stop it, nothing can stop it. A person decides to participate, and they decide to stop. There is nothing more pure then one guy, in a garage, sweating his hind quarters off doing delayed sword over, and over, and over, and over. Banging away on a heavy bag, going through which ever form he knows until his kids come out and ask him for a ride to school. IF EPAK is what you are after, GET IT. Let the hodge podge systems of Chinese-Japanese- Brazilian-Knifefighting-Ukranian-Kitchen-Sink-Pepperspray- Clandestine-Killer-Ninja-SOG-Ryu to those misguided souls that have never experienced EPAK. Its been said that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but in kenpo I believe it is. IF a person has never seen a Dennis Conatser or any other quality EPAK instructor move, and see the flame burning in their eyes when they are teaching something, then how can they ever understand. They cant. There is room in the arts for everyone, but when the moment of truth occurs, some of us will go home, and others will go to the emergency room. I am partial to the furnishings at my house, my garage, and my passion.

Keep the flame alive,
Gary Catherman, Kenpoist


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 20, 2003)

You've hit right inthe middle of the nail.

Respects,
Lucía
:asian:


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## gravity (Apr 20, 2003)

In regards to the BJJ craze the same thing is happening to the FMA - Kali, Escrima & Arnis. Now everyone and their mama is teaching stick work (along with their primary art), suddenly everyone is an 'expert'. I can't help but wonder about the quality of these systems, taking abit here and a bit there is a great way to create a pile of miscellaneous mess (don't get me wrong Bruce Lee did it but the average sensei or sifu isn't a Bruce Lee).

-LATER-


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## roryneil (Apr 20, 2003)

I don't understand why people look at rank and think that means something. I mean, even when I wasn't in martial arts I knew that and x-degree black in this art and an x-degree black in another art can't even be compared.  A black in TKD is like and orange in Kenpo...
  Just a little dig at our fine brothers in TKD


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## jdmills (Apr 20, 2003)

You're right.  There is nothing to stop any of us from creating the "XYZPDQ" system and declaring ourselves any degree of black belt in that system.  Then opening a school and advertising how great we are.

It seems that some of the "blackbelts" and "grandmasters" (and please do not think that I am talking about kenpo here, I've NEVER seen a kenpo black belt that was not at least decent) are little more than self created legends in their own mind.


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## Kenpomachine (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jdmills _
> * I've NEVER seen a kenpo black belt that was not at least decent) *



You're lucky, I have seen some which weren't even decent. I have seen the standards lowered in the tests to be able to say they have X numbers of BB within their organization. 
It sells


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## Kroy (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *I don't have a big problem with the guy who takes a little here and a little there and and blends it together but for Gods' sake don't call it a "new" system or give yourself some outrageous title like Super Grand Poobah and Keeper of the Eternal Something or other.  If you have the background to be able to blend different aspects from different styles then one should have learned enough discipline not to need the extravagant titles.  I've read on here on many occasions that there is a finite number of ways to manipulate the human body and (essentially) a fininte number of ways to contort your own body when manipulating someone elses body.  Having said that, is there really any such thing as a NEW system?  Should anyone have the right to call themselves the CREATOR of a new system?  We have incorporated ideas and techniques from other styles that augment our kenpo training but have never considered calling it a new system.  When we left our old kempo association and struck out on our own as a stand alone school our curriculum changed to my sifus' first style that he was certified to instruct,which was kenpo.  We took some of the kempo and added it to the kenpo.  We do not call it a new system and the instructor didn't take on a new title. *





I dont have a problem with cross training and showing the students what you may have learned, it's when you slap a new name to it and call yourself the man....that irks me.


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## theletch1 (Apr 20, 2003)

> I dont have a problem with cross training and showing the students what you may have learned, it's when you slap a new name to it and call yourself the man....that irks me.



I concur whole heartedly.  That is one of the things that impressed me with my sifu.  When we struck out on our own he could have concocted most any story he wanted and fed it to those of us that stayed with him but he was very straight forward about all of it, explained where the new material came from and gave credit where credit was due, kept the highest rank he had been awarded by the old association instead of adding 4 or 5 levels to it and admitted to us all that this was to be a journey that we were all gonna be takin together.  

Show me a man who feels he has to be called Senior Grand Poobah of the Highest Order of Mystical Mumbo Jumbo and I'll show you a guy that REALLY needs some Viagra.


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## brianhunter (Apr 20, 2003)

Okay, how many years experience is acceptable for a grandmaster? How many years experience is acceptable before creating ones own style? "Not everyone is bruce lee" well bruce lee wasnt really the icon bruce lee people associate, there are guys today that if they came out of a system 4-6 years and bring up radical ideas are disreguarded as flakes or not enough experience, bruce lee did the same thing while "borrowing" from several different sources. How many "years" experience did bruce lee have to warrant idolization?


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## roryneil (Apr 20, 2003)

When I think "Grandmaster", I want to see Master Po and Master Kan, old and wrinkley and they stare right through to your soul!!


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## Kroy (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Okay, how many years experience is acceptable for a grandmaster? How many years experience is acceptable before creating ones own style? "Not everyone is bruce lee" well bruce lee wasnt really the icon bruce lee people associate, there are guys today that if they came out of a system 4-6 years and bring up radical ideas are disreguarded as flakes or not enough experience, bruce lee did the same thing while "borrowing" from several different sources. How many "years" experience did bruce lee have to warrant idolization? *



Bruce Lee was a pioneer, his idea was to use what you want and chuck the rest. He wasnt trying to create a new system, he just wanted to show people that they had the freedom to choose how they trained. I would not put him in the same category as these pretended masters.


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## angrywhitepajamas (Apr 20, 2003)

Aside from the associated definition of bad smells.  Our society looks at rank as a sign of competince.  Look at american college system to see what I mean.  If any one has a little peice of paper to coroborate their claim to a specific rank, there will be those who will follow that person.  Trust me on this, I know because I used to practice amway.


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## jeffkyle (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *Bruce Lee was a pioneer, his idea was to use what you want and chuck the rest. He wasnt trying to create a new system, he just wanted to show people that they had the freedom to choose how they trained. I would not put him in the same category as these pretended masters. *



And he worked with Ed Parker for a time there...who taught who that idea?  Bruce Lee was out in mainstream public (behind the cameras) way more than Parker, however.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _*
> And he worked with Ed Parker for a time there...who taught who that idea?  Bruce Lee was out in mainstream public (behind the cameras) way more than Parker, however.
> *



If you are saying who learned more from whom..... I would say.... Bruce Lee learned much more from Ed Parker than the reverse.   

Both were rebels but..........

One went on to Master Hollywood in a big way and taught his system to a few, the other went on to become a Master Teacher and Organizer in a big way, and only has been seen in Hollywood through a few minor movies.

:asian:


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## D.Cobb (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *My take is that you cant control other people, unless you are committed to using force, and then you have to pay for it, one way or another, but thats a different story. People will always find a way to capitalize on whatever the-flavor-of -the-month happens to be in the martial arts at any given time. After Royce Gracie won a few UFC's, look at how many people started listing BJJ as one of their arts. Look at how many clubs opened up by people that had never heard of BJJ until Royce layed on his back for a few hours in the octagon. The same thing happened with the Israeli art after it made its way into the pages of all the MA rags. Jennifer Lopez struttin her fine-a$$ on the big screen didnt hurt either. Aikidos popularity picked up after Segal started making films, and how many of us have a dragon sword in our closet, just like the one Duncan McCLeod parlayed around on the Highlander. Capitalizm, mass marketing, looking for an easy BLING BLING. Its as much a part of the martial arts as it is every day life.
> 
> The one remedy for this problem is education. Read, watch, study, train, learn, and recognize bunk when you see it. I came to kenpo as a Kenpo virgin, except for a little stint with the IKCA, and I was exposed to EPAK from the get go. When my instructor relocated, I became a kenpo ronin, no pun intended. I chanced upon an off-shoot system and it filled its place for me. In fact I am still current in that system. But, whenever I had the chance to retake EPAK, I jumped, no actually I chased it. My EPAK instructor happens to live 24 hours away, and my finances as of late has prevented any one-on-ones, but I continue to stay after my EPAK training.
> ...



Hey Gary, I would have to agree with you. I left American Kenpo, around 3 or 4 years ago. I didn't like the predominant attitude within the limited groups that were teaching it at that time.
I am now firmly ensconsed in Ryukyu Kempo, but everytime there is a seminar I am there. I still love the EPAK system, but have so much to learn where I am, I won't be back for a while.

Quite often, though, I will attempt to use some EPAK concepts or principles to make a technique work that much better, or to create a little more pain.

--Dave

:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *If you are saying who learned more from whom..... I would say.... Bruce Lee learned much more from Ed Parker than the reverse.
> 
> Both were rebels but..........
> ...



I would have to agree with you.  I believe it was the same way.  

:asian:


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## brianhunter (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I would have to agree with you.  I believe it was the same way.
> 
> :asian: *



What gets me is people underestimate the amount of help and ideas that Mr Parker gave to Bruce Lee, after all it was Mr Parkers internationals he got his "big start" at isnt it?


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## jeffkyle (Apr 21, 2003)

I believe he liked to be behind the scenes when it came to hollywood and major publicity from a camera.  He was into spreading his word through others and letting them be the ones to go have all of that hollywood stress.    The problem with that is, however, he didn't get the recognition he should have sometimes because he was behind the scenes.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I believe he liked to be behind the scenes when it came to hollywood and major publicity from a camera.  He was into spreading his word through others and letting them be the ones to go have all of that hollywood stress.    The problem with that is, however, he didn't get the recognition he should have sometimes because he was behind the scenes. *



Well, I see what you are saying now....... If you would have known him...... you would know that he "was" behind many of scenes..... but was not one to avoid the front lines.  He was there as often as he could be.  

:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Well, I see what you are saying now....... If you would have known him...... you would know that he "was" behind many of scenes..... but was not one to avoid the front lines.  He was there as often as he could be.
> 
> :asian: *



He was definitely on the front lines in many ways...and probably not scared of much!  It just seems he didn't like hollywood for himself...but would help others as need be!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _*
> He was definitely on the front lines in many ways...and probably not scared of much!  It just seems he didn't like hollywood for himself...but would help others as need be!
> *


Are you kidding......... LOL, he was there as much as possible....... However, becoming a full time actor was definitely NOT his chosen vocation (LOL), and part time acting didn't pay that much.  Besides he was soooooooo  busy with teaching American Kenpo and his always present, numerous projects.

He was in TV episodes of:
I Love Lucy
The Courtship of Eddies Father

He was in or advised in the movies:
7
To Kill the Golden Goose
Buckstone County Prison (sometimes known as Seabo)
The Perfect Weapon

And of course he taught many stars & personalities such as......
Elvis
Nick Adams (the Rebel)
Julie Andrews & Blake Edwards (her husband)
Joe Hymes & Elke Summer (his then wife)
Robert Culp (I Spy)
Robert Wagner ()
Robert Conrad (Wild wild west)
Rick Jason (Combat)
Audie Murphy
Frank Lovejoy
Joey Bishop (Comedian)
Darrin McGavin
McDonald Cary
Jose Ferrar
George Hamilton (Zorro)
Warren Beatty
Fabian
Dick Martin (Rowan & Martin's Laugh In)

These are only some............... When did he have time......LOL

:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Are you kidding......... LOL, he was there as much as possible....... However, becoming a full time actor was definitely NOT his chosen vocation (LOL), and part time acting didn't pay that much.  Besides he was soooooooo  busy with teaching American Kenpo and his always present, numerous projects.
> 
> He was in TV episodes of:
> ...



I never heard, or knew that he was in I love Lucy!  Very interesting.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I never heard, or knew that he was in I love Lucy!  Very interesting.
> *



All true, and I know I left some out........ Kenpo Joe could fill in the gaps I left with even more Kenpo Trivia.

:asian:


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## theletch1 (Apr 23, 2003)

.





> Kenpo Joe could fill in the gaps I left with even more Kenpo Trivia.



How 'bout it Joe?  I'd love to have a thread or at least a couple of posts for trivia (being a trivial kinda guy) regarding kenpo.  Being a trucker gives me way too many opportunities to converse with others and a decided shortage of new things to discuss.


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