# OK, so now I'm pissed...



## Makalakumu (Aug 1, 2007)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/



> MINNEAPOLIS - A busy highway bridge that spans the Mississippi River just northeast of Minneapolis collapsed during rush hour Wednesday, sending a school bus, other vehicles and tons of concrete crashing into the water.
> 
> The entire span of the Interstate 35W bridge collapsed about 6:05 p.m. A tractor-trailer caught fire, and flame and black smoke billowed into the sky.
> 
> Local media reported 20 to 30 injuries and one death. NBC News reported that every Minneapolis ambulance had been requested to the scene.


 
Alright everybody, the stuff that I predicted 10 years ago is starting to happen.  Our government has been spending money on bombs and useless wars for so long that all of the infrastructure that we built over 40 years ago is ready to collapse...and is collapsing!  How much longer are we as a people going to let this happen!  Seriously, are we so afraid of some gad damned unnamed enemy that we can't even fix our own roads any more!

I've driven across that bridge for years and years and years.  Maybe next time it will be you...and I bet you probably have a better chance that the ****ing bridge will collapse if compared to the odds of a terrorist attack.

Ok, seriously pissed.  This is my home.  Rant over.

upnorthkyosa


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## Sukerkin (Aug 1, 2007)

No need to be ashamed of that reaction, *Upnorth* - it's pretty much spot on that what with private sector funded wars and apocolyptic graft and pocket lining our infrastructure has been hung out to dry.

Some things are not profitable but *are* necessary and the sooner governments re-realise that and put them under the public umbrella the better.


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## Ella (Aug 1, 2007)

Quite a slippery slope there, don't you think?


Was it obvious that the bridge had problems? How long was the bridge supposed to last? I mean, if they thought it would last 100 years and something went wrong, the government can hardly be blamed. Accidents happen, whether the country is at war or not.

It certainly is unfortunate, but blaming it on the government because we're at war is simply ludicrous


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 1, 2007)

Damn!  This is something I have been expecting in the US for a few years now (read an engineering article about America's roads and bridges).  Mate, you have every right to be angry, decades of near neglect is going to come back to bite someone, and here it is.  America's infrastructure is simply decayed into a past century (and I don't mean the 20th).

Sukerkin is right.  The sooner governments everywhere re-learn that there are some things they just have to do regardless of the cost or the impression it gives to the voters the better.  It all sounds very socialist (Australia is a very socialist country afterall) but somethings just need a single oversight rather than 50.

Our government down here has recently made two sweeping decisions.  The first was to take control of Aboriginal regional communities and the second was to bring some hospitals under its sway.  Don't know about the first, might be a disaster.  The second is a good thing as hospital sare jointly funded by the Federal and State governments but wholy run by the states who just blame the Feds if something goes wrong.


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## Ella (Aug 1, 2007)

Maybe you're right... but I think we need more information before we begin jumping to conclusions. Was the bridge supposed to last a very long time and something went wrong? Was it supposed to be inspected and never was?

I'm not saying its NOT the government's fault, but I think you guys should find out more about it before jumping to conclusions. There are enough REAL reasons to dislike the american government without making up new ones which may or may not be based in fact.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 1, 2007)

You live in Wisoncsin, right? You're in good standing in the community, right? Well, here is what _I _would do if I had such fierce beliefs (which I do), and was in you're situation. Spend some time investing in research into various civil projects that need to be completed/fixed, and other social issues of the same nature, and run for Governor. Run on a platform of reform, and (novel idea) actually REFORM! 
Ella, I think what the other folks on the thread are talking about as far as "the government should have done somthing" is that, well they are the government. It is one of the responsiblities of the government to maintain such public works. They didn't do that, because they are focused on the War, and not there own citizens.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 1, 2007)

Ella said:


> Maybe you're right... but I think we need more information before we begin jumping to conclusions. Was the bridge supposed to last a very long time and something went wrong? Was it supposed to be inspected and never was?
> 
> I'm not saying its NOT the government's fault, but I think you guys should find out more about it before jumping to conclusions. There are enough REAL reasons to dislike the american government without making up new ones which may or may not be based in fact.


 
The problem of infrastructure, especially road infrastructure, in the US is an old one.  The engineering community has been warning of these problems for nearly 20 years now.  Its not that it is a new reason to dislike the government so much as it is a castigation for not doing what they should be.  Bridges, especially ones across major rivers, should be inspected annually as they are true weak points in the road system, but they are not being done well enough or frequently enough.  

As you say this may have been a catastrophic failure no one was prepared for, but I find it more likely that it was just not maintained because of budgetry constriction.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 1, 2007)

Obviously, this is a horrible tragedy, but so far all of the reports that I have seen have been about the accident itself and the reactions.  I am sure that more information will come out regarding the actual causes.  When something like this happens, they call in Civil Engineers from all over the country to come evaluate and determine the exact cause.

As a pavement engineer and civil engineer (not by any means a bridge specialist), I can make limited comments on this...

First off, structures of ANY KIND are not designed to "catastrophically fail" - in fact, we design them so that they first deform, THEN fail.  This is why bridges have required inspections at regular intervals, to try to catch things like this.  Obviously, that doesn't always work...due to inattentive inspectors, unnoticeable deformations, or even NO deformations...sometimes materials just fail for no reason.

With that said....The infrastructure of this country (roads wise) IS falling apart.  I cringe everyday as I see some new blunder being made in the name of saving money.  We tar and chip seal roads to "rehabilitate the pavement" because it is a cheap, quick, and easy band aid...but it only lasts a year or two.  In the mean times damaging cars, hurting the underlying pavement and closing roads more often than necessary.  We make patches to pot holes with cold patch to get on and off quickly and cheaply...but again, the pothole comes back so quick that it is barely worth it.  There are correct ways to do these things that WORK and LAST.....the local and federal governments are simply not willing to spend the money.  We evaluate these roads based on an economic curve...basically, we repair it until it is more cost effective to simply replace it...even if that means repairing the road every month.

Pavement and infrastructure is a touchy subject for me, because I KNOW that there are better ways to do things.  I have no idea what caused this tragedy, but I do know that there is a good chance that it could have been prevented with proper maintenance and inspections.  

One thing that I can say for sure...unless it is proved conclusively that this was a complete fluke, unpreventable, and there were no signs of distress or deformation, there are a lot of people who will be losing jobs and very possible a PE (Professional Engineer) who will go to jail.


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## Monadnock (Aug 1, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> As you say this may have been a catastrophic failure no one was prepared for, but I find it more likely that it was just not maintained because of budgetry constriction.


 
Good point. Many highways and roads have been paid for 10X by the tolls paid by travelers. If the money went to where it should have this might be less likely to happen.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 1, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> The problem of infrastructure, especially road infrastructure, in the US is an old one. The engineering community has been warning of these problems for nearly 20 years now. Its not that it is a new reason to dislike the government so much as it is a castigation for not doing what they should be. Bridges, especially ones across major rivers, should be inspected annually as they are true weak points in the road system, but they are not being done well enough or frequently enough.


 
Steel Tiger,

Great points....I have personally been in the situation where I have recommended the BEST course of action and was refused due to budget and forced to use a cheaper, less effective method.  That is actually a driving factor for MOST pavement and road failures.  Cut costs by using 1" less of base course, speed up the road closure by not getting full compaction, etc.....It is a shame that the people TRULY responsible (those holding the purse strings) will not be blamed, but the local engineers who more than likely KNEW the right way to do things but were not allowed.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 1, 2007)

There are several bridges near me that are known problems.  Little things like large chunks of cement falling from them....the county put up netting to catch the pieces....and the nets are straining under the weight of tha growing accumulation of debris.  People have been injured, cars damaged, yet the bridges continue to decay.  NY is famous for letting it's roads and bridges rot.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 1, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Great points....I have personally been in the situation where I have recommended the BEST course of action and was refused due to budget and forced to use a cheaper, less effective method. That is actually a driving factor for MOST pavement and road failures. Cut costs by using 1" less of base course, speed up the road closure by not getting full compaction, etc.....It is a shame that the people TRULY responsible (those holding the purse strings) will not be blamed, but the local engineers who more than likely KNEW the right way to do things but were not allowed.


 
Even though I currently live in WI, I grew up in MN all of my life and many people in my family have worked on crews or led the crews responsible for getting the work done that needs to be done.  Your story, MBuzzy is all too common.  Especially under the successive Republican administrations in  MN.  They would rather bond then spend when it comes to infrastructure, but this strategy just doesn't work because the bonding runs out and the bills are continuous.  

The botton line is that the government is, by and large, dropping the ball when it comes to infrastructure all across the US.  From the state to the federal level, politicians would rather spend our tax dollars on their favorite subsidized industries like military or petroleum or you name it.  This is the real price of that kind of graft.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 1, 2007)

Just something of an update.

The bridge was last inspected two years ago and was undergoing routine maintenance throughout the last tow years.

So it looks like *MBuzzy* is right someone is in it deep for this one.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 1, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Even though I currently live in WI, I grew up in MN all of my life and many people in my family have worked on crews or led the crews responsible for getting the work done that needs to be done. Your story, MBuzzy is all too common. Especially under the successive Republican administrations in MN. They would rather bond then spend when it comes to infrastructure, but this strategy just doesn't work because the bonding runs out and the bills are continuous.
> 
> The botton line is that the government is, by and large, dropping the ball when it comes to infrastructure all across the US. From the state to the federal level, politicians would rather spend our tax dollars on their favorite subsidized industries like military or petroleum or you name it. This is the real price of that kind of graft.


 
I go back to my "you're in good standing with the community, run for governor, run on a platform of reform, and actually REFORM!" statement.


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## jks9199 (Aug 1, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> The problem of infrastructure, especially road infrastructure, in the US is an old one.  The engineering community has been warning of these problems for nearly 20 years now.  Its not that it is a new reason to dislike the government so much as it is a castigation for not doing what they should be.  Bridges, especially ones across major rivers, should be inspected annually as they are true weak points in the road system, but they are not being done well enough or frequently enough.
> 
> As you say this may have been a catastrophic failure no one was prepared for, but I find it more likely that it was just not maintained because of budgetry constriction.


Yep... It's not the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, or even Vietnam.

It's a simple pattern of neglect going back probably to hours after the first road in the Interstate Highway System was paved.

Nobody wants to pay more taxes; nobody wants to hold builders accountable for the roads that whatever they build will require.  And then, they get so busy playing catch up on the new stuff that the old stuff falls apart.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge on the Capital Beltway is a fantastic example.  By the time it was completed, it was already at or over capacity.  In the 70s and 80s, it was in such a state of disrepair that you could see the Potomac River through the bridge as you drove over it -- and more than one car started to fall through!  It's now 2007; they've finally completed ONE span of a replacement that may actually be, when the second span is complete, sufficient for the number of travelers for a few years.  If we're lucky.  Now, I'll grant that there are some unique problems with that bridge (it's actually the ONLY federal drawbridge; it's technically neither in VA, DC, nor MD's road system... and it's a friggin' DRAWBRIDGE on a major road...) -- but it's a good example.

Trust me.  You don't even want to THINK about plumbing and electrical infrastructure, especially in lots of our cities.  You just don't even wanna go there.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 1, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The Woodrow Wilson Bridge on the Capital Beltway is a fantastic example. By the time it was completed, it was already at or over capacity. In the 70s and 80s, it was in such a state of disrepair that you could see the Potomac River through the bridge as you drove over it -- and more than one car started to fall through! It's now 2007; they've finally completed ONE span of a replacement that may actually be, when the second span is complete, sufficient for the number of travelers for a few years. If we're lucky. Now, I'll grant that there are some unique problems with that bridge (it's actually the ONLY federal drawbridge; it's technically neither in VA, DC, nor MD's road system... and it's a friggin' DRAWBRIDGE on a major road...) -- but it's a good example.
> 
> Trust me. You don't even want to THINK about plumbing and electrical infrastructure, especially in lots of our cities. You just don't even wanna go there.


 
Maybe he should run for President after a few years as Governor?


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## Makalakumu (Aug 2, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> I go back to my "you're in good standing with the community, run for governor, run on a platform of reform, and actually REFORM!" statement.


 
It's hard to run on a platform of "we need to raise taxes in order to pay for the things we have."  Trust me.  I've been involved in local politics since I was 14 and helping my Mom with various people's campaigns.  The will to do something just hasn't been there and now we are going to pay for it, big time.  I suspect that this won't be the first bridge to collapse in this country.  Sad.  Very sad.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 2, 2007)

Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?


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## Makalakumu (Aug 2, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?


 
It depends on the roadway.  If you take a look at a map, you'll see designations for particular roads...Interstate, US Highway, State Highway, County Road, etc.  These designations basically explain who is paying for them, who is responsible for them.  

For this particular bridge, the funding and impetus for maintanance comes from the federal level.  It's part of the interstate highway system.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 2, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> It's hard to run on a platform of "we need to raise taxes in order to pay for the things we have." Trust me. I've been involved in local politics since I was 14 and helping my Mom with various people's campaigns. The will to do something just hasn't been there and now we are going to pay for it, big time. I suspect that this won't be the first bridge to collapse in this country. Sad. Very sad.


 
You could easily run on a platform of "I will _barely_ raise taxes, find where money is mismanaged and FIX what needs fixing!" If you ran in Nebraska, I would get my freinds/family/Cuong Nhu family to vote for you. In of it self, that isn't too much, but it's something!


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 2, 2007)

Interstate Highway System at a Crossroads; A Crumbling Legacy

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/Story?id=2131042&page=2


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## Makalakumu (Aug 2, 2007)

Good article, BH.

This very spring, MN lawmakers voted to increase the gas tax in that state to try and deal with these very issues.  The MN governer vetoed it because he had signed this "no new taxes pledge" and he has his eyes on higher offices.  The MN legislature attempted to over ride the governors veto, but failed.  

My guess is that every single person who sided with the governor on this issue is going to be in hot water.  The people of MN now have a real life tangible example of why we need to spend this money.  

I wish it didn't have to happen this way.  I wish people would have just listened to reason before it came to this.  That is why this story is so infuriating to me.  We know the problem is there, but the politics came first.  

Ideology supplanted practicality.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 2, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Good article, BH.
> 
> This very spring, MN lawmakers voted to increase the gas tax in that state to try and deal with these very issues. The MN governer vetoed it because he had signed this "no new taxes pledge" and he has his eyes on higher offices. The MN legislature attempted to over ride the governors veto, but failed.
> 
> ...


 
Again, run for governor. This is the wake up call that "an increase in taxes to have money to fix things that need fixin' is a good thing". Run on a platform of reform and revitalization! With incindents like this in peoples mind, they will gladly open ther wallets and pocket books if it means they would be safer. How many people have died already? 4, and 20 missing. Sounds like someone who goes by UpnorthKyosa should run to try to fix crap like this.

For refernce, yes I am going to keep posting my suggestion that you run for governor until you either do, or stop posting on this thread. Just to warn you!


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## jks9199 (Aug 2, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Again, run for governor. This is the wake up call that "an increase in taxes to have money to fix things that need fixin' is a good thing". Run on a platform of reform and revitalization! With incindents like this in peoples mind, they will gladly open ther wallets and pocket books if it means they would be safer. How many people have died already? 4, and 20 missing. Sounds like someone who goes by UpnorthKyosa should run to try to fix crap like this.
> 
> For refernce, yes I am going to keep posting my suggestion that you run for governor until you either do, or stop posting on this thread. Just to warn you!


Just an observation...  As far as I know, each state mirrors (sometimes in a fun house mirror -- but still mirroring) the federal separation of powers.

The legislatures generally make the laws, and control the purse strings.

The executive generally proposes a budget, and enforces the laws.

The judicial has little to do with the budget or spending; I'll skip that one for now.

So.  most governors (and the President of the United States, as well), don't actually have a lot of control over economies or road repair, unless the legislature cooperates.  If the law makers won't approve a budget with the road repair money in it... there won't be money.  Doesn't matter how badly the executive wants to fix the roads; he ain't got the money.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 2, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?


 


upnorthkyosa said:


> It depends on the roadway. If you take a look at a map, you'll see designations for particular roads...Interstate, US Highway, State Highway, County Road, etc. These designations basically explain who is paying for them, who is responsible for them.
> 
> For this particular bridge, the funding and impetus for maintanance comes from the federal level. It's part of the interstate highway system.


 
The worst part about this is that every municipality and government system has their OWN Civil Engineer.  There are local, county, state, and federal civil engineers.  Unfortunately, there is never ONE right answer, there are many and in many cases, each of these CE's have a different opinion, some with different motivations.  Some of them are more political than others.  This leads to arguments and general distrust of the Engineering career field.  How many times have you heard about something badly designed "some dumb engineer behind a desk must have designed it."  What I have noticed is that this is leading to a lot of people with opinions and repair methods that have no basis.  I can't tell you how many Lowe's employees I have had conversations with about concrete and asphalt....self proclaimed experts that have no idea.  They are everywhere....even in the Government systems.  I have had MANY bosses who "knew" more than me about pavements...without a day of education or real experience about it.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 2, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Just an observation... As far as I know, each state mirrors (sometimes in a fun house mirror -- but still mirroring) the federal separation of powers.
> 
> The legislatures generally make the laws, and control the purse strings.
> 
> ...


 
Stae legislature then?


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## Empty Hands (Aug 2, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Run on a platform of reform and revitalization! With incindents like this in peoples mind, they will gladly open ther wallets and pocket books if it means they would be safer.



Bullcrap.  Everyone always claims they want reform and a reformer, just like they always want a plainspoken politician who will tell them the truth.  Invariably, every time the voters get their chance at either, the voters vote them down.  Jesse Ventura was elected in MN on a reform platform - the legislature blocked him at every turn and he ended his tenure extremely unpopular.  Schwarzenegger in CA was also elected on a reform platform, and the voters rejected each and every one of his reform-minded ballot measures.  Every time a "truth-teller" comes along - Perot, McCain (for a while), Paul, Gravel, Kucinich - they are never voted in, and are usually perceived as fringe nutballs.

I am forced to conclude that the voters want exactly what they have gotten - corrupt, double-faced and double-speaking politicians who will tell us what we want to hear and promise that sacrifices will never be necessary.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 2, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?


State.


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## grydth (Aug 2, 2007)

Ella said:


> Quite a slippery slope there, don't you think?
> 
> 
> Was it obvious that the bridge had problems? How long was the bridge supposed to last? I mean, if they thought it would last 100 years and something went wrong, the government can hardly be blamed. Accidents happen, whether the country is at war or not.
> ...



To the extent that this person is saying, " Let's get all the facts before we make any conclusion."..... I wholeheartedly agree. 

The thread initiator may be correct - or may not be. It is simply too early to tell. Let's allow the survivors to grieve and allow the investigators to do their work. Then, and only then, we can rationally debate this.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 2, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> Bullcrap. Everyone always claims they want reform and a reformer, just like they always want a plainspoken politician who will tell them the truth. Invariably, every time the voters get their chance at either, the voters vote them down. Jesse Ventura was elected in MN on a reform platform - the legislature blocked him at every turn and he ended his tenure extremely unpopular. Schwarzenegger in CA was also elected on a reform platform, and the voters rejected each and every one of his reform-minded ballot measures. Every time a "truth-teller" comes along - Perot, McCain (for a while), Paul, Gravel, Kucinich - they are never voted in, and are usually perceived as fringe nutballs.
> 
> I am forced to conclude that the voters want exactly what they have gotten - corrupt, double-faced and double-speaking politicians who will tell us what we want to hear and promise that sacrifices will never be necessary.


 
There is a differnce between what people want, and what they need. Small children refuse to eat sometimes, but are eventually made to eat. Many of the first leaders of this country were reformers in every sense of the word. The Roosevelts where major reformers. Or are you referring to people now adays?
Besides, if the people you mentioned are 'fringe nutballs', they should meet me. With how intellegent people make me out to be, with how curious and imagnitive I am, plus the fact that I'm more of a leftist then liberals, they should see what _I _would do! -laughs chaoticly-


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 2, 2007)

I have to agree with Empty Hands, people vote down more money for police forces, then gripe when there aren't enough officers to patrol (and the officers are looking anywhere they can for work). They gripe about crappy roads, then vote down a bill that would fun the work to fix the roads. 

I've seen in constantly and I think it comes down to people want to sling blame, but not take a stand and actually do what is right... until after some tragedy when they can stand and shout and yell about how messed up things are and how no one cares, the government is corrupt, our leaders messed up, it's someone elses fault.... not realizing they're yelling about themselves.

Rather than slinging blame on the bridges, yes I do agree if there was someone at fault then do the right thing.. but, how about rather than being a bunch of litigious bastards who try and point fingers... we stop and simply pray for those who lost loved ones, and make sure the next bill for safety measures... passes, even if it costs us a bit every few years.


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## Yeti (Aug 3, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> It is one of the responsiblities of the government to maintain such public works. They didn't do that, because they are focused on the War, and not there own citizens.


It is NOT the responsibility of the federal government to maintain a bridge on a state road!


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> I have to agree with Empty Hands, people vote down more money for police forces, then gripe when there aren't enough officers to patrol (and the officers are looking anywhere they can for work). They gripe about crappy roads, then vote down a bill that would fun the work to fix the roads.
> 
> I've seen in constantly and I think it comes down to people want to sling blame, but not take a stand and actually do what is right... until after some tragedy when they can stand and shout and yell about how messed up things are and how no one cares, the government is corrupt, our leaders messed up, it's someone elses fault.... not realizing they're yelling about themselves.
> 
> Rather than slinging blame on the bridges, yes I do agree if there was someone at fault then do the right thing.. but, how about rather than being a bunch of litigious bastards who try and point fingers... we stop and simply pray for those who lost loved ones, and make sure the next bill for safety measures... passes, even if it costs us a bit every few years.


 
Again, what they _want_ is to not pay more taxes, and sling blame. What they _need_ is someone to spend some time and money to repair infastructure.

Yeti, I never said it was the job of the fed.s. In Nebraksa people in government positions as low as MAYORS are spending alot time complianing about something to do with the war. If people would just do there job (and let other people do there job) we would be much better off.


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## qi-tah (Aug 3, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Our government down here has recently made two sweeping decisions. The first was to take control of Aboriginal regional communities and the second was to bring some hospitals under its sway. Don't know about the first, might be a disaster. The second is a good thing as hospital sare jointly funded by the Federal and State governments but wholy run by the states who just blame the Feds if something goes wrong.


 
*warning - off topic Australian politics rant (sorry)*

Ooh, don't go there! The Feds seem just as good at blaming the states when it suits them too! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I reckon you can bet yr bottom dollar that the hospitals John Howard is taking over are in marginal liberal seats... oh, and isn't this an election year? Pure policy on the fly, ripping up over 100 years of federation and state rights just to garner enough votes to keep him in office... this government gets more despotic by the day.

*now returning you to yr previous programming*


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## Empty Hands (Aug 3, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> There is a differnce between what people want, and what they need.



No doubt.  However, we do have a democratic system, so absent a benevolent dictator, we will continue to have the leaders people want.  Despite all the problems, I think this is still a good thing.



CuongNhuka said:


> Many of the first leaders of this country were reformers in every sense of the word. The Roosevelts where major reformers. Or are you referring to people now adays?



Yes, I am referring to the current system.  The modern expectation of the role of government and the people is quite different now than it was then.  Also, the most egregious abuses of the past are still mostly gone, which allows people to be complacent.  I am not saying that reform is impossible - just that the voters have demonstrated by their actions that they don't particularly want it.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes, this certainly was a tragedy and my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families.  While watching the news tonight, they were talking about the bridge, as well as other bridges thru-out the world and the various conditions that they're in.  What amazes me, is that everyone is *now* running around inspecting all these bridges.  Why weren't they doing it before??  Why does it take an event like this, to wake people up?  Same thing with 9/11.  It took something like that, to wake people up.  So, just like then, people run around, doing what they should've been doing all along (inspecting bridges).  Just like 9/11, things will start off full bore, but will gradually slow back to the pace that we were originally in.  Within a few months, the inspections will drop back, until the next tragic event happens.  Its really a shame.

Mike


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2007)

Empty Hands said:


> No doubt. However, we do have a democratic system, so absent a benevolent dictator, we will continue to have the leaders people want. Despite all the problems, I think this is still a good thing.
> 
> Yes, I am referring to the current system. The modern expectation of the role of government and the people is quite different now than it was then. Also, the most egregious abuses of the past are still mostly gone, which allows people to be complacent. I am not saying that reform is impossible - just that the voters have demonstrated by their actions that they don't particularly want it.


 
True. One of the Flaws of Democracy is that some times change is needed, but the people say 'no'. Incidents like this will (I believe) demonstrate that the U.S. has some serious problems, that need to be addressed.

All I'm going to say about the need for refrom (which are unanswered by citizens who refuse to accept change):
"Every three Generations, there should be a Revolution" - Thomas Jefferson.


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 6, 2007)

qi-tah said:


> *warning - off topic Australian politics rant (sorry)*
> 
> Ooh, don't go there! The Feds seem just as good at blaming the states when it suits them too!
> 
> ...


 
With this I can only agree.

The collapse of the bridge is almost constantly in the news down here.  I was shocked to hear that the investigation into why might take as long as three years and that the funds allocated to reconstruction might be quite a bit short of what is necessary.  Oh, wait, I'm not that shocked afterall.


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> With this I can only agree.
> 
> The collapse of the bridge is almost constantly in the news down here. I was shocked to hear that the investigation into why might take as long as three years and that the funds allocated to reconstruction might be quite a bit short of what is necessary. Oh, wait, I'm not that shocked afterall.


 
Its a big topic of discussion here in CT as well, as we seem to have quite a few bridges that are in poor shape.  Reading this I once again repeat my views from my other post....why does it take a tragedy like this to make people wake up and realize that inspection of major routes of transportation need to be kept up.

Mike


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