# In light of the Olympics: Kata hoarding and the negative effects.



## letsplaygames (Jun 12, 2021)

One can't hoard kata and have functional prowess in Karate .  I've never seen it done. IMO : It's pointless outside the realm of gymnastics and exercise. This has been said time and time again, Not by me but by others much more talented than I.  

Given the Olympics, given sport karate with it's focus on Kata competition, I'd thought I'd express this again.  What do you get when you hoard kata, when you spend more time acquiring kata than internalizing Karate?  A very low level surface understanding... which results in a negative.  One becomes a ballerina with a kegogi.  I have seen Ballerina Dan with decades under them who functionally can not apply a block in training when the condition mimic reality.  If you've studied Karate for a decade or two,  you have seen this time and time again.    Paper Tigers...    Don't be a Paper Tiger or a Ballerina Dan.  These practitioners ignore their low level of skill, turn from that huge deficiency, and chase Kata.  They are not Karate-ka.  To paraphrase Funakoshi O-Sensei  "These people run around the giant tree of Karate, clueless of the branches above.

35 yrs practicing I've come full circle.  IMHO: The truth about Kata... the real secret about Kata is.....   Drum roll.......     THER ARE NO ADVANCE KATA.    A kata (or several katas) are the life teaching's of one Karate master... every kata is ADVANCED.  You could spend a life time mastering Heian Shodan/Pinan Nidan....   the dearth of practical functional prowess to be mastered from that kata alone is overwhelming.  If... in conditions of reality.. one can do  the techniques taught in that Kata alone... That person has exceeded the skill level of 50% of the Dan I have trained with.  Someone thinking they have functional prowess  (regardless of Dan rank) who thinks because they have memorized the steps in all the kata in their particular style is a fool. 

_"figuratively......    those people  get's taught the error of their ways by Karate-ka who spends a life time mastering Heian Shodan_* 
*
_*You can't Internalize functionally...  that an Age uki isn't just a block, or that an Oi Zuki isn't just a forward stepping punch by hoarding kata.  *
_


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## Tez3 (Jun 12, 2021)

OK. 😒


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jun 24, 2021)

I have done a quick search on "kata hoarding" and cannot find anything. What does this term refer to?


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## dancingalone (Jun 25, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I have done a quick search on "kata hoarding" and cannot find anything. What does this term refer to?


Collecting kata.  Basically having more in your practice than you can develop meaningfully.  

Subjective though.  Not everyone practices for the same reason and if someone wants to learn 100 different kata, let them be happy in my opinion.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jun 25, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> Collecting kata.  Basically having more in your practice than you can develop meaningfully.
> 
> Subjective though.  Not everyone practices for the same reason and if someone wants to learn 100 different kata, let them be happy in my opinion.


Shotokan has about 26 kata and, to my knowledge, Shito-Ryu has somewhere around 50. In my experience though, we are generally taught to practice many kata on the surface level, eventually find a few kata that suit us (I personally have a strong liking for Enpi and Chinte), and then devote a greater amount of attention to those specific kata and their practical applications. However, despite focusing primarily on these two kata for the past year or so, I still know almost all the other kata by heart, even if on a superficial level. There is no harm in simply knowing a larger amount of kata, so long as you specialize in a select few that fit your style/physique,


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 25, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Shotokan has about 26 kata and, to my knowledge, Shito-Ryu has somewhere around 50


These numbers amazed me.  I searched and did indeed find these numbers for the two styles on Google and was rather shocked.  Funakoshi originally had just 15 kata in his original syllabus, but
mentioned many other kata found in Okinawa in his early books.  Over the years many of these seem to have found their way into the Shotokan system.  For what reason, I have no idea.  Perhaps others here, more informed on the style, can enlighten me.

Mabuni Kenwa, founder of Shitoryu, was maybe the first kata collector.  He studied with Itosu, Arigake and Higashionna, so was exposed to several branches of Okinawan karate.  Still, I doubt he learned, or practiced 50.  Again, I hope there is some kata historian out there that can shed light on this.

The masters of the 1800's, and even the early 1900's, may have been exposed to 20 kata, actually knew 10-12, but _commonly taught only a handful, maybe 3-6_.  These numbers are in line with everything I've read (from many reliable and varied sources) about karate history.

The idea that one should be exposed to so many kata, then choose the ones that suit their taste, like a buffet, seems like a math student telling a teacher, "I don't like quadratic equations or tangents so I'll just study non-linear geometry, that's more to my taste."

The purpose of kata was to catalog and pass on the core techniques the system was built around.  I don't think you need 26 or 50 kata to do that.  (Iaido styles often have numerous kata, but many of them are quite short - only 2-10 cuts.)

My style has 8 empty hand kata and 6 kobudo kata.  I also know the 5 Pinans (which I consider easier that my style's core kata and no longer practice them much.)  That's 19.  I would say that it took 16 years to be proficient in performing them, and another 4 to (almost) understand and execute the bunkai.  I would call myself an expert now, but I'm still working towards mastering them after about 30 yrs actively training in that one style.

The danger is spending too much time on kata at the expense of training with another body in front of you trying to land effective strikes upon your person.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> One can't hoard kata and have functional prowess in Karate .  I've never seen it done. IMO : It's pointless outside the realm of gymnastics and exercise. This has been said time and time again, Not by me but by others much more talented than I.


As others have, I presume by hoarding, you mean collecting.  I know of people who like to learn different katas from different styles of karate.  I've never been so inclined, but I have learned a couple along the way.

As to whether it is pointless or not, I think that depends on the reasons a person has for doing it.  If I learn a kata being taught by an instructor at a seminar, it's just something of interest to me.  I don't imagine it makes me a better martial artist or gives me any special abilities I didn't have before (although it might).  On the other hand, sometimes I might miss a finer point of a technique until I see it done in a kata I don't usually perform.  Fresh eyes and all that.

Who can say anything anyone else does is pointless? I happen to collect old film cameras.  They're not much use to me, I cannot go out and take photos with all of them.  They don't make me a better photographer.  They cost money (not much) and take up space.  One might say they are pointless.  However, they bring me enjoyment.  I like to see how they are made and think about the history behind them.  I find them endlessly fascinating.  This is probably pointless to 99 people out of 100.  But so what?  It's my life, and this is for my enjoyment, not theirs.



Paul Calugaru said:


> Given the Olympics, given sport karate with it's focus on Kata competition, I'd thought I'd express this again.  What do you get when you hoard kata, when you spend more time acquiring kata than internalizing Karate?  A very low level surface understanding... which results in a negative.  One becomes a ballerina with a kegogi.  I have seen Ballerina Dan with decades under them who functionally can not apply a block in training when the condition mimic reality.  If you've studied Karate for a decade or two,  you have seen this time and time again.    Paper Tigers...    Don't be a Paper Tiger or a Ballerina Dan.  These practitioners ignore their low level of skill, turn from that huge deficiency, and chase Kata.  They are not Karate-ka.  To paraphrase Funakoshi O-Sensei  "These people run around the giant tree of Karate, clueless of the branches above.


Again, it depends upon your focus and purpose in learning kata and karate.  I certainly agree that it is hard to do deep dives on a given kata when one is busy memorizing patterns for many katas.  I've always believed that I personally do not want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.  However, that's for me.  What works for me might not be what works for others.

I have probably gone what many consider too much the other way.  I study the kata of the system I train in, of course.  I practice performing them to increase my understanding and ability to grasp the underlying fundamentals of those kata, which are like peeling back the layers of an onion.  I'll never live long enough to get to the bottom, but that's OK.  However, I've taken my study of karate into what I consider to be deeper layers, some might call them mystical or philosophical, searching for a deeper understanding of myself and my relationship with the world.  A fool's errand, perhaps.  Bizarre and pointless, according to some.  Not karate, say many.  However...why would I care about that?  Moreover, how could I tell others that they are studying karate incorrectly, just because they do not see what I think I see?



Paul Calugaru said:


> 35 yrs practicing I've come full circle.  IMHO: The truth about Kata... the real secret about Kata is.....   Drum roll.......     THER ARE NO ADVANCE KATA.    A kata (or several katas) are the life teaching's of one Karate master... every kata is ADVANCED.  You could spend a life time mastering Heian Shodan/Pinan Nidan....   the dearth of practical functional prowess to be mastered from that kata alone is overwhelming.  If... in conditions of reality.. one can do  the techniques taught in that Kata alone... That person has exceeded the skill level of 50% of the Dan I have trained with.  Someone thinking they have functional prowess  (regardless of Dan rank) who thinks because they have memorized the steps in all the kata in their particular style is a fool.
> 
> _"figuratively......    those people  get's taught the error of their ways by Karate-ka who spends a life time mastering Heian Shodan_
> 
> _*You can't Internalize functionally...  that an Age uki isn't just a block, or that an Oi Zuki isn't just a forward stepping punch by hoarding kata.  *_


Yes, I agree with you.  I feel the same way.  However, I can't agree that it's necessarily wrong for others to see things differently.  Consider that karate is not one thing, which has to be grasped in a certain way to be useful.  Karate is many things, and many people see the utility of it in different ways.  We may not want what they want, or find enjoyment or fulfillment in what they do, but that's for them and our path is for us.  There are many paths.  Who is to say what path is wrong?


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 25, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> every kata is ADVANCED.


Sounds great.  One can say a reverse punch is an advanced move as well.  It is certainly rich with MA principles such as power generation (from multiple sources), importance of posture, proper coordination and form in technique execution, etc., and can take years to get it just right.  But can't you say that about almost any activity?  A little too much to declare every kata "advanced,"   a little too indulgent, IMO.

I truly understand where you're coming from and your appreciation of the depth in kata, so I'm not challenging your feeling on this, just your angle of perspective.  It partly comes down to one's definition of "advanced," and advanced compared to what?

An earthworm is advanced compared to  flat worm, but not compared to a human, or even a fish. If you take kata and just use the word "advanced" in relation to other kata in concrete terms, instead of referring to a more abstract concept, there are kata more advanced than others.

So, in this less philosophical view of advanced kata, what makes one more advanced than another?  Complexity is one.  The number and frequency of stance changes and pivots, the actual techniques themselves and the multiple directions they're aimed at.  Is the bunkai something you would teach to a new student, or reserve it for a more advanced one, already having learned additional skills and understanding the more suble concepts of its application and to be able to apply them effectively.

Then there is the physicality of performing the kata.  Length is a consideration.  I wouldn't start a white belt off with a 60 move kata.  Longer kata are generally (but not always) more challenging and the number of techniques in a given series which can affect breath control.  Are they done snappy or with dynamic tension?  Are there numerous jumping and kneeling moves?

Personally, I don't do a kata with the idea that it is advanced.  I try to view them all as simple, doing each one naturally.  Of course, it has taken many years to get to this point.  Taking the complex (advanced) and making it simple is to approach the concept of _mushin_.  In a way, at a certain stage, basic and advanced are the same thing, or at least two sides of the same coin. Sort of like quantum mechanics where two things /concepts can coexist.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject, maybe not that all important.  For, in the end, semantics in MA is not important.  Somethings start off seeming basic but end up seeming advanced indeed, or is it the other way around?  One can say all kata are advanced, and also, all kata are basic.  You can put them in some order of difficulty, or not.  Either way, you just do them.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 25, 2021)

I like to let the kata talk to me.  I question each move when I am thinking deeply about kata. For every move, I ask what is its purpose? How can it be used?  Where are the focal points, how does the timing work for each potential application?  What is its nature?  How is power applied, and is speed a key factor?  Things like that.  I seldom think of new applications that others have not thought of long before me, but I do find it satisfying to feel the applications encoded within a part of a kata and test them mentally as well as physically.  It's a good mental workout.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 25, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I like to let the kata talk to me.


So, kata is kind of like my wife.  I like her to talk to me, but sometimes I have no idea what she's saying.  Though her bunkai is inscrutable, I love her anyway.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 25, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> THER ARE NO ADVANCE KATA. ... every kata is ADVANCED.


If you learn the same level forms, you can only grow fat, you won't grow tall. Going through the elementary school 4 times won't be able to earn you a PhD degree.

To have the ability to distinguish the beginner, intermediate, advance level forms is important.

Some forms are designed for beginners. If you still train those forms when you are 70, you may just like to stay in elementary school and refuse to graduate.

A: Dear master, in the form that I have learned, why moves 1 - 4 only have the hand movement but without the leg movement. Also why moves 5 - 6 only have the leg movement but without hand movement?
B: The initial 6 moves were designed to train beginners.


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## Graywalker (Jun 26, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> One can't hoard kata and have functional prowess in Karate .  I've never seen it done. IMO : It's pointless outside the realm of gymnastics and exercise. This has been said time and time again, Not by me but by others much more talented than I.
> 
> Given the Olympics, given sport karate with it's focus on Kata competition, I'd thought I'd express this again.  What do you get when you hoard kata, when you spend more time acquiring kata than internalizing Karate?  A very low level surface understanding... which results in a negative.  One becomes a ballerina with a kegogi.  I have seen Ballerina Dan with decades under them who functionally can not apply a block in training when the condition mimic reality.  If you've studied Karate for a decade or two,  you have seen this time and time again.    Paper Tigers...    Don't be a Paper Tiger or a Ballerina Dan.  These practitioners ignore their low level of skill, turn from that huge deficiency, and chase Kata.  They are not Karate-ka.  To paraphrase Funakoshi O-Sensei  "These people run around the giant tree of Karate, clueless of the branches above.
> 
> ...


I would somewhat agree, it is obvious that some advanced Kata are simply movements from several Katas and done so and created for competition.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 26, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> I would somewhat agree, it is obvious that some advanced Kata are simply movements from several Katas and done so and created for competition.


I'm not as certain about that.


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## Graywalker (Jun 26, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not as certain about that.


Really, it is clear that Korean arts have done this in the early days of TKD...I figured it was common knowledge.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 26, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Really, it is clear that Korean arts have done this in the early days of TKD...I figured it was common knowledge.


Common does not make it accurate.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you learn the same level forms, you can only grow fat, you won't grow tall. Going through the elementary school 4 times won't be able to earn you a PhD degree.
> 
> To have the ability to distinguish the beginner, intermediate, advance level forms is important.
> 
> ...


Gonna disagree there.  What we think of as beginner forms often place heavy emphasis on building and strengthening the foundation.  This is always worth working on, one never outgrows this.  

Of course it should not be the only thing one works on.  But it should always be part of it.  This is an example of where I feel forms are good for training.  It gives you a tool to work with, over and over, to strengthen those skills.

The more I train, the more I appreciate what is in our foundation (beginner level) forms.  In a lot of ways I like them more than the more complex advanced forms.


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## Graywalker (Jun 26, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Common does not make it accurate.


It does in this case.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 27, 2021)

Stumbled upon a post someone made, thought it might be of interest to some, thought it was quite good (it's below).

I'm not against studying from many katas, but also feel there is so much depth in each one. I personally love learning new kata, not to "collect" them superficially, but I find each one helps integrate something within me, and I find links between them which reinforce certain principles. I love how meditative and insightful that can really be; not even on a bunkai or practical application level though, but in instilling a type of body intelligence, way of moving and connecting with the moment in a more integrated, unified way. If that makes sense!

-------

"I like to think of kata as like a children’s join the dot picture…. At first, the dots are important until the lines you draw between them come to reveal the image. Then, the dots become irrelevant.

Each kata may arrange their dots (techniques) to show a different image (application), but the method used to reveal those images (the core blueprint) is essentially the same. If you are unable to see past the staccato choreography of kata (the dots), then knowing/practicing even one hundred kata applications would be of little value. Conversely, pulling your attention away from those dots and focussing instead on the way you move between them would make a deep study of one or two kata more than sufficient."


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## Drobison491 (Jun 30, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Shotokan has about 26 kata and, to my knowledge, Shito-Ryu has somewhere around 50.



Those numbers blow my mind....

Keep in mind I've only been training for a year...Uechi-Ryu has 8 (originally 3) I know 4 (Meaning I can perform the techniques with some level of skill) but I wouldn't say I've internalized them yet.  Truly knowing 26 let alone 50 seems insane to me


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## MadMartigan (Jun 30, 2021)

Drobison491 said:


> Truly knowing 26 let alone 50 seems insane to me


Couldn't agree more. 
The Chang Hon (ITF) style of TKD has 24 (1 for each color belt rank, then 3 for each of the 1st few BB ranks finishing off with only 1 new form at 6th Dan.

That said, from what I've seen thats just the beginning in many orgs. Then you have some kind of 4 direction blocking pattern and another 'sparring' pattern at each level as well (not everywhere, but some places I've seen). 
The memorization gets a bit silly at a certain point.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2021)

Drobison491 said:


> Those numbers blow my mind....
> 
> Keep in mind I've only been training for a year...Uechi-Ryu has 8 (originally 3) I know 4 (Meaning I can perform the techniques with some level of skill) but I wouldn't say I've internalized them yet.  Truly knowing 26 let alone 50 seems insane to me


That's because you're still new. 24 Chang Hon forms, 6 Kicho forms, 8 Palgwae forms, 8 Taegeuk forms, 9 Yudanja forms. And I do think I truly know them; some of them I've practiced for 50 years.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jun 30, 2021)

Drobison491 said:


> Those numbers blow my mind....
> 
> Keep in mind I've only been training for a year...Uechi-Ryu has 8 (originally 3) I know 4 (Meaning I can perform the techniques with some level of skill) but I wouldn't say I've internalized them yet.  Truly knowing 26 let alone 50 seems insane to me


What do you consider "truly" knowing? In Shotokan, some of us would consider that being able to perform it at a competition with a decent level of ability.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> What i think of as beginner forms


There is a general misunderstanding prevalent in this thread.  I chose Flying Crane's post to quote to introduce mine as he used the revealing words, "What I _think_ of as beginner forms..."  While there are some kata more complex and longer than others, and with perhaps more subtle bunkai, it is a mistake to view the "easier" ones as basic and the "harder" ones as advanced.

We (including myself) usually think of the order of the katas we learn as progressing from beginner to advanced - this is, strictly speaking, not so (exceptions to be discussed further down.) To understand this, we must look back into karate history.

There can be said (at least by me) to be two types of kata:  Evolved and constructed.  Evolved kata are those that were formed by the Okinawan masters in the late 1700's thru the 1800's, based on the teachings of the Chinese masters.  The sole purpose of these kata were to provide a vehicle for practicing and remembering combat techniques.  It was not a method of _teaching _these moves in an orderly and progressive manner - that was done one-on-one from master to student.

It's important to note that many (Okinawan and Japanese) styles have similar katas in common. This is because the early masters learned from multiple sources and had teachers in common. Each kata represented that teacher's method of fighting.  (i.e. Chinto and Kusanku) So, in a sense, all these kata were advanced.  After all, one master's fighting style was not "basic" while the other master's style, "advanced."

As the number of kata grew, they had to be put in come kind of order - you can't teach 6 or 12 kata all at once.  Each individual master (style) decided the order.  As my style is largely based on Shorinryu, the order of the kata we have in common are taught in the same order.  But while we teach Seisan as a "beginner" form, Gojuryu teaches it later on as an "intermediate" form.  Chinto kata for us is a brown belt form, while in Shitoryu, it's a high dan form.

So, in light of this, how can a kata be called beginner, intermediate, or advanced.  These labels have no real meaning, other than referring to the order a particular style teaches them.

Now, for the exception to all this - the constructed kata.  These are the forms that _were _specifically devised and planned to be taught in a specific order and are a fairly recent invention.  Itosu's pinan (heian) kata 1-5 are a prime example.  Now in the public schools, lesson plans and manuals were required to teach large groups and keep everyone on the same page.  There had to be a standardized progression to take the students step-by-step thru the curriculum.   At this point we now have what can be called beginner/basic and advanced kata.

(There are also, in some styles, kihon kata, which are not really kata in the normally used sense, being just practicing the ABC's in a particular order to drill them.  And there are "dojo" kata where the instructor makes up a simple form to give the new students a "practice" kata to familiarize them with the basic steps.)

Note - To be honest, this post slightly conflicts to my initial one on this thread, in response to Paul Calugaru's.  It is true that some forms are easier or harder (depending on the person), longer or shorter, etc. but this should NOT be taken as meaning basic or advanced.  Those terms refer to the way they are taught by the instructor.  Any kata or form can be taught at basic or advanced levels depending on the student's readiness.

This is sort of a new slant based on my knowledge and understanding of kata, as I haven't really thought of kata as basic or advanced - I just do them.  But discussions such as this on this forum encourage one to examine concepts from different angles.  For me, this leads to even a deeper appreciation of the Art.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jul 1, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There is a general misunderstanding prevalent in this thread.  I chose Flying Crane's post to quote to introduce mine as he used the revealing words, "What I _think_ of as beginner forms..."  While there are some kata more complex and longer than others, and with perhaps more subtle bunkai, it is a mistake to view the "easier" ones as basic and the "harder" ones as advanced.
> 
> We (including myself) usually think of the order of the katas we learn as progressing from beginner to advanced - this is, strictly speaking, not so (exceptions to be discussed further down.) To understand this, we must look back into karate history.
> 
> ...


You seem like you know a lot about kata placement in the curriculum.
One question I've been burning to ask someone like you: how do you explain Wankan being placed higher in the Shotokan syllabus than Unsu?


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 1, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> You seem like you know a lot about kata placement in the curriculum.
> One question I've been burning to ask someone like you: how do you explain Wankan being placed higher in the Shotokan syllabus than Unsu?


They are both taught late in the curriculum, so in that sense both are advanced.  Some schools may teach one before the other, depending on what list they go by - no need to split hairs.  They are very different from each other, wankan being shorter and seemingly less complex. 

Why it is placed towards the end of the curriculum, I don't know.  Here are my two guesses:  1.  It may be simply that it was added more recently to Shotokan so was stuck in at the end of the list.  2.  Maybe _because_ it is "basic" it was purposely placed for advanced students as a reminder that basics are of utmost importance.  (sounds like something I'd do)  Could be both possibilities are completely wrong - I'm not versed in Shotokan details.

Since you are asking _me_ this question instead of a Shotokan sensei, I'm guessing you are not in a position to be worrying about such forms. Why is an explanation regarding this question even required?


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## Drobison491 (Jul 1, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's because you're still new. 24 Chang Hon forms, 6 Kicho forms, 8 Palgwae forms, 8 Taegeuk forms, 9 Yudanja forms. And I do think I truly know them; some of them I've practiced for 50 years.


point taken.  I'm sure I'll have a different view point in a couple years, but being a bigger its hard to fathom.

along the save line, I know everyone has a different opinion on kata, but what is the benefit of learning/knowing so many, I would think eventually the techniques become the same or blended so what benefit do you see in rearranging the order? Or is it just adding to your knowledge bank?


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## Drobison491 (Jul 1, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> What do you consider "truly" knowing? In Shotokan, some of us would consider that being able to perform it at a competition with a decent level of ability.


I'm still toying with what knowing a kata means to me.  Right now I guess I would say that its the difference between being able to memorize and perform the techniques vs understanding the application of the techniques or how to modify them as needed.  Ie. I just learned Seichin Kata (our 4th), I've memorized the order and have the ability to perform the techniques (some sloppier than others), but for a few of the movements I can't see all the applications.  

Not sure that makes any sense as I said I'm still working on my own thoughts.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2021)

Drobison491 said:


> point taken.  I'm sure I'll have a different view point in a couple years, but being a bigger its hard to fathom.
> 
> along the save line, I know everyone has a different opinion on kata, but what is the benefit of learning/knowing so many, I would think eventually the techniques become the same or blended so what benefit do you see in rearranging the order? Or is it just adding to your knowledge bank?


Benefit #1 - I have rank from all three agencies (though only offer promotions in KKW or MDK) so it's probably best if I know their curriculum.
Benefit #2 - There are subtle (and not so-) differences between the ways each style does things. Understanding those differences and why they exist makes me a better martial artist.
Benefit #3 - How boring would it get practicing the same old same old for 50 years?


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jul 1, 2021)

Drobison491 said:


> I'm still toying with what knowing a kata means to me.  Right now I guess I would say that its the difference between being able to memorize and perform the techniques vs understanding the application of the techniques or how to modify them as needed.  Ie. I just learned Seichin Kata (our 4th), I've memorized the order and have the ability to perform the techniques (some sloppier than others), but for a few of the movements I can't see all the applications.
> 
> Not sure that makes any sense as I said I'm still working on my own thoughts.


The way I see kata is the same way I see a song:

First, you memorize the lyrics. Those are the movements.
Secondly, you memorize the notes. Those are the movements performed with some spirit.
Thirdly, you dive into the meaning of the lyrics. Those are the bunkai of the movements.
Fourthly, you develop a personal connection to the lyrics, notes, and meaning of the song. This is where I would guess the kata traverses into "winning an official tournament" territory.
Lastly, you know the song so well that you are able to make a cover and get recognized for it. This is the place where - again, my inexperienced self can only assume - only a select few can be placed (people like Funakoshi, Oyama, Motubu, etc): this is the place where some people might develop their own version of the kata that, although unique, retains the original principles and brings something new to the table. If you think about how both song and kata have evolved over the years, and how they are carried from one generation to the next, they are perfect equals in this regard; person makes song/kata, other person learns it and studies it, said other person then makes their own version that the next generation will do the same with.

At least that's how I see it.  c:


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## Drobison491 (Jul 1, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> The way I see kata is the same way I see a song:
> 
> First, you memorize the lyrics. Those are the movements.
> Secondly, you memorize the notes. Those are the movements performed with some spirit.
> ...



I like that analogy.  That's where my thought process was going, I just ramble a bit more


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## Drobison491 (Jul 1, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Benefit #1 - I have rank from all three agencies (though only offer promotions in KKW or MDK) so it's probably best if I know their curriculum.
> Benefit #2 - There are subtle (and not so-) differences between the ways each style does things. Understanding those differences and why they exist makes me a better martial artist.
> Benefit #3 - How boring would it get practicing the same old same old for 50 years?


Makes a lot of sense, I guess in my limited experience I'm not looking forward 50 years lol.   I'm looking at the next several trying to learn and understand 8.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jul 2, 2021)

Drobison491 said:


> I like that analogy.  That's where my thought process was going, I just ramble a bit more


Man I thought I was the one rambling haha 
Nice outfit by the way. c:


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## twendkata71 (Apr 21, 2022)

In the karate organization i am associated with we are only required to learn about 15 kata for dan rank. I learned many more so that I could be a better kata judge at USAKF,AAU,USANKF events. I know I won't master all of the kata that I have learned over my 41 years in karate do. I focus on about 15 kata for my development and training.


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