# Knife Violence As With All Violence You Are Probably On Your Own!



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2014)

*Here is a blog post *with some video of a recent knife attack.  Pretty disturbing
so do not watch the video embedded into the blog if you are not inclined to see someone injured.

The Instinctive Edge

Nasty business, real world violence is!


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2014)

Knife on the ground--very tough situation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2014)

arnisador said:


> Knife on the ground--very tough situation.



Very, very tough situation as your mobility is restricted!


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## Badger1777 (Aug 22, 2014)

Forgive my ignorance, but what have we gained from this blog or the video in it?

It is just a video and write-up about someone getting attacked. It doesn't tell us why, how the man might have avoided it, what he could do about it or anything. The write up says its a pity the man doesn't know how to 'bump and roll', which is a worthless thing to say, because to many, 'bump and roll' means nothing. It's just gratituous violence for violence's sake. I see no lessons in any of that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2014)

*That blog post is meant* nothing more than to show "real knife violence" in an attack.  It is incredibly important for people to understand what real violence looks like.  It is not pretty, it is messy.  The blog post itself was not mean to show awarenss, avoidance, or action on to deal with it.  Other than yes people there is real violence out there!  It did point out one simple fact.  Your probably on your own in a violent encounter at least for awhile.  Hope that helps!


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## Badger1777 (Aug 22, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *That blog post is meant* nothing more than to show "real knife violence" in an attack.  It is incredibly important for people to understand what real violence looks like.  It is not pretty, it is messy.



Fair point. I guess I'd overlooked the fact that some people will be fortunate enough to have never yet seen such vile situations. It sort of shocked me because at 40 and (I think) streetwise, I've seen this sort of thing all too often, but you're right, even in my martial arts class, it kind of worries me when some of the students (particularly the younger ones) are so full of confidence that their moves will always work.

Its like the other week, I was training 1 on 1 with a lad who is much younger than me, but much higher grade. He took out a rubber dagger, and showed me how he wanted me to attack him with it. I said "everyone knows how to defend against that move". "Oh really?" he asked, with a big grin, so I told him to attack me that way, I am a white belt. As he held the knife up, I rushed him, grabbed both his wrists and stuck my right foot behind his legs and pushed, all in one swift and rapid movement. I held him to stop him actually falling back, and didn't bother to explain that had I followed through, I would have fallen with him, using his stomach as cushion my knee from the floor. It might not be a formal move, but I've actually had to improvise for real in the past, and I know that works.

A couple more times, when I was attacking him in the way he asked me to attack, I'd get the angle wrong or something, and consequently his defence would fail, and he would tell me I'd done the attack wrong.

I have no doubt whatsoever that martial arts training will help in a real situation, but you're right, people need to know that when its real, club rules mean nothing. Martial arts is useful as a means of improving reflexes, stamina and flexibility etc, and 'muscle memory' will mean that any blocks and strikes you do are more likely to be executed well, but improvisation is one of the keys to walking away (or running away - I've fought for my life long enough to find the opportunity to leg it more than once).


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2014)

I like to get every piece of actual data I can, because I get more theory on how knife attacks really happen from classes, seminars, and the web than I know what to do with.


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## K-man (Aug 22, 2014)

What I have found in all normal training against knife attacks is that the attack is always known and it is generally a big thrust or a big slash. That is understandable in the context of a three hour seminar. Reality is that a knife attack won't happen that way. It may be multiple thrusts or multiple short slashes but the chances of the arm being offered for you to grab it and perform a standard defence is as likely as winning a lottery. That is why, no matter how confident you are that you can disarm an attacker with a knife, the best course of action is Reebok Do.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2014)

Managed to hold him off for a bit though. One thing I would add when you are calling for help be specific. As soon as they have a knife let people know and Tell them what to do about it. That way you may get a better response from the crowd.


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## Buka (Aug 23, 2014)

Back in the 70's there was a training video (VHS) they showed cops in the academy that I believe was called "Edged Weapons". It was mostly film footage of really nasty cuts and deaths. It had big shock value, especially to the younger cadets. I wish they still used it, because it stuck in the mind. (no pun intended) It was just plain nasty.

A friend of mine, Mark Human of South Africa, has developed a really nice course of "knife fighting while grappling". South Africa has become the murder by stabbing capital of the world. He works in the AMOK system and is a good grappler and damn good Martial Artist. The course covers how to access and draw your weapon from all places you might carry it, as well as the best way to defend on the ground. It covers positions from top, bottom and anywhere else that is common to scrambling and grappling. It also covers easiest and best targets of the body while in these positions. It's a tiring course, usually a day and a half. But it's a lot of fun and I found it to be very practical. He teaches a lot of military, cops and prison guards, but also does some dojo visits. If you ever see the course offered, I highly recommend it.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 23, 2014)

Badger1777 said:


> Fair point. I guess I'd overlooked the fact that some people will be fortunate enough to have never yet seen such vile situations. It sort of shocked me because at 40 and (I think) streetwise, I've seen this sort of thing all too often, but you're right, even in my martial arts class, it kind of worries me when some of the students (particularly the younger ones) are so full of confidence that their moves will always work.
> 
> Its like the other week, I was training 1 on 1 with a lad who is much younger than me, but much higher grade. He took out a rubber dagger, and showed me how he wanted me to attack him with it. I said "everyone knows how to defend against that move". "Oh really?" he asked, with a big grin, so I told him to attack me that way, I am a white belt. As he held the knife up, I rushed him, grabbed both his wrists and stuck my right foot behind his legs and pushed, all in one swift and rapid movement. I held him to stop him actually falling back, and didn't bother to explain that had I followed through, I would have fallen with him, using his stomach as cushion my knee from the floor. It might not be a formal move, but I've actually had to improvise for real in the past, and I know that works.
> 
> ...




Badger good points. 

A few years (decade?) ago I was in London Ontario on to teach a seminar on basic knife work. I was invited on the fly to stop by someone else's event at a different time as they were going to train there. The host a Vale Tudo instructor was gracious and let me a friend train together on his floor for the techniques he was teaching. During one such ground technique in guard, my friend asked if I still had my training knife in the front pocket of my jeans. I said yes, while trying to defend against his verbal distraction. He says, "See if you can pull and deploy it". I reply, "OK". As he knew where it was he worked hard to keep my right hand and arm busy. Eventually I was able to get my hands on the knife and pull. It is a Wave with a pocket catch so I was able to deploy on the pull even on the ground. The "SHINK" sound stopped everyone in the place and no one knew where it came from. It soon became obvious as my friend was doing everything in he could to stop me from stabbing him while I was on the bottom and at best in a half guard by know. 

With the exception of the instructor everyone was in awe and could not believe that we would practice such techniques. I apologized as did my friend, yet the instructor just laughed and said, I wish more people were willing to see and try different things in all the ranges including grappling standing up and on the ground. He just shook his head, and told the rest that we were FMA practitioners and were practicing our variation of the move. 

He did ask if anyone wanted to try it themselves. No one wanted too, even with a training blade in the folder. I will say the level of possible intended violence scared them and they ran away mentally. 

Having been in situations where I was minutes from backup from fellow employees and further minutes for people to call the police and then further minutes for them to respond. (* Instant teleportation based upon my mental call still has not been invented yet today. And in the day when a Cell phone / Car phone was the size of two or three bricks and only criminals, wanna be criminals / people trying to impress and the few business men who used them, they were not around either. 

The point I got from the video is that one needs to train that people will not help. One needs to think about what to do. The guy on the ground did not respond even when the other guy videoing was talking to him. The guys on the ground needed more verbal training. To call attention to situation. He needed to yell knife as well as dealing with it. My guess is that he tunnel visioned on the knife and while he was doing his best to survive there are things people can take away from this.


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## ZapEm (Aug 23, 2014)

This video shows a lot of things, especially the limits of what you can prepare for with training.

If you don't see the knife until it's too late, you're stuffed. 

Knives are extremely dangerous weapons even if you see them coming, because they give you lethal force. This is why radically different paradigms, from FMA to military knife fighting, will work. Knife fighting systems don't have to be good, for knives to work in fighting. Someone with no knife fighting system at all can be just as effective a knife fighter if they have lethal intent.

The nature of warfare is assymetrical, yet the paradigm you train for is probably a fair duel. For example, human beings have 2 arms and 2 legs and other similar physical features, so there must be a game theory "solution" to the problem of 2 human beings fighting that can determine who will win. That seems reasonable. However weapons belong to the theatre of warfare, not duels, because they introduce so many new considerations into the game that you can't even count them all let alone have a ready answer for them.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 23, 2014)

Buka said:


> Back in the 70's there was a training video (VHS) they showed cops in the academy that I believe was called "Edged Weapons". It was mostly film footage of really nasty cuts and deaths. It had big shock value, especially to the younger cadets. I wish they still used it, because it stuck in the mind. (no pun intended) It was just plain nasty.
> 
> A friend of mine, Mark Human of South Africa, has developed a really nice course of "knife fighting while grappling". South Africa has become the murder by stabbing capital of the world. He works in the AMOK system and is a good grappler and damn good Martial Artist. The course covers how to access and draw your weapon from all places you might carry it, as well as the best way to defend on the ground. It covers positions from top, bottom and anywhere else that is common to scrambling and grappling. It also covers easiest and best targets of the body while in these positions. It's a tiring course, usually a day and a half. But it's a lot of fun and I found it to be very practical. He teaches a lot of military, cops and prison guards, but also does some dojo visits. If you ever see the course offered, I highly recommend it.



Buka, sounds like your friends program is a good one.  In IRT I have a similar program with grappling on the ground dealing with a knife as well as accessing your knife.  I feel it is very, very important to train this way!


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## jezr74 (Aug 24, 2014)

In my time I've have been in two knife encounters and one firearm encounter. All three in my early twenties and teens.

My first knife encounter was on a train coming home from school I was in an altercation with a much older and bigger person (25ish) that resulted in being put in a head lock, I was around 14 at the time. It was not until after the incident was settled I was told by a friend that was there I had a large knife to my throat.

The second encounter some years later myself and 2 friends (early 20s) jumped a fence to a park\oval on the way to a pub and as we got to the middle of the field realized we had walked into the middle of a gang fight with two groups at each end of the park area and were moving in fast to scrap.  After we had put the fight behind us by fighting our way through the roughly 60 teens, in what we can only describe as surreal, we got around a corner and under a street lamp we discovered, I was slashed\knicked on the forehead and my friend was stabbed through the ribs.

Both times I never saw the knife, and was quick and over in a few minutes. This was over 20 years ago and I don't think I was mature enough to understand the gravity of what happened, being young and invincible I didn't even take the encounters seriously, almost not believing that it could have been a much worse situation.

These days I'd have a different reckoning with an encounter, and I also think the potential brutality of an encounter has increased in the last 20 years as well.


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## Buka (Aug 24, 2014)

Thank God you made it out okay. I hope your buddy recovered well.


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## Hanzou (Aug 24, 2014)

This video just reiterates how learning to fight from your back is of vital importance.


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## arnisador (Aug 24, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> This video just reiterates how learning to fight from your back is of vital importance.



...but when the guy on top has a knife, it's a waaaaay different game than usual.


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## Hanzou (Aug 24, 2014)

arnisador said:


> ...but when the guy on top has a knife, it's a waaaaay different game than usual.



Not really. In training you're taught to control your attacker's arms and hands while they're on top you in order to assist in your transition. Even the guy in the video gripped his assailant's wrist a couple of times, but couldn't capitalize on it because he wasn't trained.


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## arnisador (Aug 25, 2014)

Well, I don't agree with you on this one--I'll just say that.


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## drop bear (Aug 25, 2014)

You want some sort of plan if they are on top. Of course a plan that puts you on top would be better.

Of course well rounded grappling skills does solve both problems as well as they can be solved.


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## K-man (Aug 25, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You want some sort of plan if they are on top. Of course a plan that puts you on top would be better.
> 
> Of course well rounded grappling skills does solve both problems as well as they can be solved.


Sorry, plans don't work against knife attacks. With enough training you may develop an instinctive response whether you are on your feet or on the ground but trying to plan for a random attack won't work. The one thing in your favour will be that the attacker intuitively will try to retain the weapon. If you have control of the weapon or arm holding the weapon, that may give you the opportunity to take control of the total situation. But, you can't plan for that. As in all our training, you have to use what you are given.


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## drop bear (Aug 25, 2014)

K-man said:


> Sorry, plans don't work against knife attacks. With enough training you may develop an instinctive response whether you are on your feet or on the ground but trying to plan for a random attack won't work. The one thing in your favour will be that the attacker intuitively will try to retain the weapon. If you have control of the weapon or arm holding the weapon, that may give you the opportunity to take control of the total situation. But, you can't plan for that. As in all our training, you have to use what you are given.



How would you know plans don't work against knife attacks? 

I am not even sure why you would make that statement. And once you have made that. it hinges every other idea you have to it.

This random  statement based reasoning honestly just confuses me.


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## K-man (Aug 26, 2014)

drop bear said:


> How would you know plans don't work against knife attacks?
> 
> I am not even sure why you would make that statement. And once you have made that. it hinges every other idea you have to it.
> 
> This random  statement based reasoning honestly just confuses me.


So, someone is standing in front of you with a knife or worse still sitting on top of you in a mount. You have no idea what he will do. Will he stab or will he slash? Will he feint? You can't plan for that scenario. You can practise against those types of attacks but if the situation were to arise you would fall back on your training and hope that instinctively you make the right move.

A lot of instructors teach if he does A, we do B. If he does C, we do D and so on. There is an answer to every attack. Unfortunately knife attacks aren't choreographed. That type of training will give you false confidence. You can't wait for a particular attack then react. You have to be able to anticipate the attack and react accordingly.

But to throw it back to you, just how would you plan for a knife attack?


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

K-man said:


> So, someone is standing in front of you with a knife or worse still sitting on top of you in a mount. You have no idea what he will do. Will he stab or will he slash? Will he feint? You can't plan for that scenario. You can practise against those types of attacks but if the situation were to arise you would fall back on your training and hope that instinctively you make the right move.
> 
> A lot of instructors teach if he does A, we do B. If he does C, we do D and so on. There is an answer to every attack. Unfortunately knife attacks aren't choreographed. That type of training will give you false confidence. You can't wait for a particular attack then react. You have to be able to anticipate the attack and react accordingly.
> 
> But to throw it back to you, just how would you plan for a knife attack?



A plan would look more like a flow chart than a script. It gives you a general outline to make some of your decisions a bit quicker. And is internalised rather than written out. 

(Random funny one as an example)


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## K-man (Aug 26, 2014)

We reproduced the scenario tonight. Guy in the mount with the knife. Interesting session.


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2014)

K-man said:


> We reproduced the scenario tonight. Guy in the mount with the knife. Interesting session.




I can imagine. It sucks hard enough when they are just beating on you from there.


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## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Alternate view of stabbing;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IDnJozW1gqY


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## Blindside (Sep 14, 2014)

This is a quick compilation video of a bunch of our unarmed vs. knife freeplay sessions.  A number of the guys in my group are ex-judo players, which may account for the propensity for takedowns in freeplay, regardless, IMO is good to know all your ranges.  I am a novice in BJJ, but the knife changes many assumptions about the ground positions.  Let me know what you think.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 14, 2014)

Put chalk or ink on the blade next time so the person getting stabbed can see how many times he was struck after the fight.
 what..........did I miss anyone doing the BJJ one leg shoot take down??????

some of those fighters would have had some serious wounds before they  managed their take down. All would have been bleeding

looked like a fun training event


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## Blindside (Sep 14, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Put chalk or ink on the blade next time so the person getting stabbed can see how many times he was struck after the fight.
> what..........did I miss anyone doing the BJJ one leg shoot take down??????
> 
> some of those fighters would have had some serious wounds before they  managed their take down. All would have been bleeding
> ...



Nobody tried a shoot, it is a great way to get a knife in the back.  The takedowns are happening because people are getting into standing grappling positions trying to control the weapon arm, and someone winds up compromising their balance and it goes to the ground.  

We have chalked blades before but not really informative after several sessions when you are just a giant chalk mark.


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## mook jong man (Sep 14, 2014)

Blindside said:


> This is a quick compilation video of a bunch of our unarmed vs. knife freeplay sessions.  A number of the guys in my group are ex-judo players, which may account for the propensity for takedowns in freeplay, regardless, IMO is good to know all your ranges.  I am a novice in BJJ, but the knife changes many assumptions about the ground positions.  Let me know what you think.



Good to see that your group practice against the prison yard rush type of attack , with the knife in the rear hand and the front hand used to maintain distance.
Very very difficult to deal with , that one

Most martial arts tend to only want to practice against the scenario where the knife is in the front hand and the attackers other hand is doing nothing.
Good video.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 21, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> This video just reiterates how learning to fight from your back is of vital importance.



I'm sorry but if you purposely go down on your back against someone with a knife then you are going get killed.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I'm sorry but if you purposely go down on your back against someone with a knife then you are going get killed.



It wasn't purposeful, the guy ended up on his back because his assailant forced him there.

Once forced into that position, he had several opportunities to gain a superior position. Unfortunately since he wasn't trained, he wasn't able to capitalize on those openings, and he ended up in a nasty situation.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 21, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> It wasn't purposeful, the guy ended up on his back because his assailant forced him there.
> 
> Once forced into that position, he had several opportunities to gain a superior position. Unfortunately since he wasn't trained, he wasn't able to capitalize on those openings, and he ended up in a nasty situation.



I wasn't talking about the video but I agree that he wasn't well trained.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> I wasn't talking about the video but I agree that he wasn't well trained.



Well I was talking about the video. If you watch the video I posted from the alternative angle, you see that the victim was dragged into the ending position where he began to get stabbed. From the point of contact with the ground, to the end point where he begins to get stabbed, there's quite a few opportunities where knowing ground fighting would have gotten him out of that situation. The knife wielder would have never achieved the mount position if the victim knew how to fight from his back.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2014)

I see the link was taken down on YT. Here's another link;

LiveLeak.com - MARTA Stabbing -- Alternate View ** Volume Warning **

At the beginning of the vid, the assailant is actually in the victim's half guard. There's quite a few moves you can do from that position. Namely sweeps in order to achieve a positional advantage.

Look up "Half Guard sweeps" for more info.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 21, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Well I was talking about the video. If you watch the video I posted from the alternative angle, you see that the victim was dragged into the ending position where he began to get stabbed. From the point of contact with the ground, to the end point where he begins to get stabbed, there's quite a few opportunities where knowing ground fighting would have gotten him out of that situation. The knife wielder would have never achieved the mount position if the victim knew how to fight from his back.



There were quite a few opportunities to not let it get that far.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> There were quite a few opportunities to not let it get that far.



Of course, but what if it DOES get that far? As I often say, gravity is here to stay, and it really doesn't take much to knock or wrestle someone to the ground.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 22, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, but what if it DOES get that far? As I often say, gravity is here to stay, and it really doesn't take much to knock or wrestle someone to the ground.



Your previous post where you talk about improving your position implies that you want to stay on the ground. If someone gets on top of you with a knife you need to do four things, Control the knife, get him off you and incapacitate him and get up. You want to spend the least amount of time on the ground as possible because while you are there you can't get away.


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## Hanzou (Sep 22, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Your previous post where you talk about improving your position implies that you want to stay on the ground.



No, I want to improve my position so that I control the outcome of the altercation. You have little control from an inferior position. You seem to think that once I achieve positional dominance me and this guy are going roll around in the daisies or something. Nothing could be further from the truth. From a position of dominance I can end the altercation quickly and decisively, especially against someone who is untrained of equal size as shown in this video.



> If someone gets on top of you with a knife you need to do four things, Control the knife, get him off you and incapacitate him and get up. You want to spend the least amount of time on the ground as possible because while you are there you can't get away.



All of which is made easier with a superior position. The victim controlled the knife several times during the stabbing phase of the altercation. The problem is that he never had the superior position, so while he briefly controlled the knife at certain points, he couldn't maintain that control because of his opponent's positional dominance.

That of course completely misses the point that he could have achieved positional dominance before the knife even came out. Yet another example of how not knowing how to fight from your back or the ground can be costly.

You can say that your goal is to get up as quickly as possible. However, if you have no idea what you're doing, or if you drill your ground defenses once every blue moon (in between katas and spinning jump kicks) you're going to be on the ground a lot longer than *you* want to be. I'm sure that poor guy who was getting stabbed wanted to get off the ground as quickly as possible too. Unfortunately since his ability to fight from that position was lacking to nonexistent, he didn't have the luxury of being able to control the outcome.


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