# Is there any technique in TaeKwonDo you have a pet peeve with?



## Acronym (Jan 12, 2021)

Mine is ITFs reverse turning kick. Spinning the leg with no chamber is slower and with weaker momentum. It's like swinging a log stiffly rather than slingshoting it. There is no discernable benefit to it either. Slower and less powerful than a spinning hook kick...The leg is heavier to swing around If you don't tuck it in

Annoyingly enough it was a favorite of my club,  while the spinning hook kick was completely neglected.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 12, 2021)

All that jumping up and down while sparring. Looks like they are on a trampoline. Gives me motion sickness.


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## Acronym (Jan 12, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> All that jumping up and down while sparring. Looks like they are on a trampoline. Gives me motion sickness.



There has been a rules change in one of the ITFs  that gives minus point If you don't do at least one jumping back kick per minute. Something like that.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 12, 2021)

Twisting kick (bitureo chagi) - feels like there's not as much power in it as other available kicks and like a super unnatural position for the knee and hip (and as I've had surgery on both knees I'm really protective if I have to do unnatural positions). Fortunately it's not in Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae so I don't have to do it or demonstrate it often.


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## jobo (Jan 12, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Mine is ITFs reverse turning kick. Spinning the leg with no chamber is slower and with weaker momentum. It's like swinging a log stiffly rather than slingshoting it. There is no discernable benefit to it either. Slower and less powerful than a spinning hook kick...The leg is heavier to swing around If you don't tuck it in
> 
> Annoyingly enough it was a favorite of my club,  while the spinning hook kick was completely neglected.


its got significantly greater momentum, if you can actually accelerate in the first place,


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## Taipan (Jan 12, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Twisting kick (bitureo chagi) - feels like there's not as much power in it as other available kicks and like a super unnatural position for the knee and hip (and as I've had surgery on both knees I'm really protective if I have to do unnatural positions). Fortunately it's not in Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae so I don't have to do it or demonstrate it often.



I agree on the twist kick.

Also never was a fan of the spear hand techniques in the forms. 

I guess it depends on how the school treasts the techniques. If they teach them for tradition's sake and move on I understand, but it would be annoying to me if there was a huge focus on them.

I studied both ITF & WT. Both schools treated it a little differently.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 12, 2021)

Acronym said:


> There has been a rules change in one of the ITFs  that gives minus point If you don't do at least one jumping back kick per minute. Something like that.


Its not jumping kicks, those are ok. Its the bouncing up and down for no reason.


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## Buka (Jan 12, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> All that jumping up and down while sparring. Looks like they are on a trampoline. Gives me motion sickness.



Used to love teaching my students how to time/blitz that bouncey bouncey.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 12, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> Its not jumping kicks, those are ok. Its the bouncing up and down for no reason.


People do it in (epee) fencing too. There's an important part of doing footwork that's pretty random but constant when you're waiting 2 minutes before the first lunge. But people translate it into bouncing and it just gives up openings.


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## dvcochran (Jan 12, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Mine is ITFs reverse turning kick. Spinning the leg with no chamber is slower and with weaker momentum. It's like swinging a log stiffly rather than slingshoting it. There is no discernable benefit to it either. Slower and less powerful than a spinning hook kick...The leg is heavier to swing around If you don't tuck it in
> 
> Annoyingly enough it was a favorite of my club,  while the spinning hook kick was completely neglected.


Can you show a video of the kick you do not like?


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## dvcochran (Jan 12, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Twisting kick (bitureo chagi) - feels like there's not as much power in it as other available kicks and like a super unnatural position for the knee and hip (and as I've had surgery on both knees I'm really protective if I have to do unnatural positions). Fortunately it's not in Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae so I don't have to do it or demonstrate it often.


Agree. Pretty useless kick.


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## dvcochran (Jan 12, 2021)

Some of the one-step motions are rather silly.


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## Acronym (Jan 12, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Can you show a video of the kick you do not like?


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## Acronym (Jan 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Twisting kick (bitureo chagi) - feels like there's not as much power in it as other available kicks and like a super unnatural position for the knee and hip (and as I've had surgery on both knees I'm really protective if I have to do unnatural positions). Fortunately it's not in Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae so I don't have to do it or demonstrate it often.



Yeah that one seems designed to injure you. It does make sense to have it but your opponent rarely stands shoulder to shoulder with you unless there is an arrest.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 13, 2021)

My pet peeve is that some have you reset to your belt all the time in application as opposed to keeping a combat guard up.   Not really a technique but it relates to application and annoys me. 


Other than that, how they let you get away and consider kicks that you just get with say your big toe viable.  you basically dont connect with suffcient amount of your foot to do anything or its not enough to not run a varying risk of injuring yourself.    For example you hit somone with just your big toe.


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## jobo (Jan 13, 2021)

Rat said:


> My pet peeve is that some have you reset to your belt all the time in application as opposed to keeping a combat guard up.   Not really a technique but it relates to application and annoys me.
> 
> 
> Other than that, how they let you get away and consider kicks that you just get with say your big toe viable.  you basically dont connect with suffcient amount of your foot to do anything or its not enough to not run a varying risk of injuring yourself.    For example you hit somone with just your big toe.


the mechanics  of bare foot kicking, are complex and yes you need to hit with the correct bit of the foot or it hurts you at least as much as them, the mechanics of kicking in robust foot ware is less problematic


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 13, 2021)

Rat said:


> My pet peeve is that some have you reset to your belt all the time in application as opposed to keeping a combat guard up.   Not really a technique but it relates to application and annoys me.
> 
> 
> Other than that, how they let you get away and consider kicks that you just get with say your big toe viable.  you basically dont connect with suffcient amount of your foot to do anything or its not enough to not run a varying risk of injuring yourself.    For example you hit somone with just your big toe.


One of my old sensei's I swear had a metal toe. It was absolutely painful getting hit in the ribs with his toe, and when he aimed it right, it hurt more than his shin.


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## Taipan (Jan 13, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> One of my old sensei's I swear had a metal toe. It was absolutely painful getting hit in the ribs with his toe, and when he aimed it right, it hurt more than his shin.



Interesting!

My philosophy with round kicks is either hit with the shin or hit with a steel toe boot.

I can't imagine having to condition my toes to that extent!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> One of my old sensei's I swear had a metal toe. It was absolutely painful getting hit in the ribs with his toe, and when he aimed it right, it hurt more than his shin.


Since the day that we will use our MA skill to defend ourselves on the street, we will have shoes on. When we train kicking, should we train bare foot, or should we train with shoes on?

Some people may say that he just wants to train MA for sport (indoor environment). Should we set that unnecessary limitation to ourselves?


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## jobo (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since the day that we will use our MA skill to defend ourselves on the street, we will have shoes on. When we train kicking, should we train bare foot, or should we train with shoes on?
> 
> Some people may say that he just wants to train MA for sport (indoor environment). Should we set that unnecessarn limitation to ourselves?


i always train with shoes on, even a decent pair of training shoes make a real differeance


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since the day that we will use our MA skill to defend ourselves on the street, we will have shoes on. When we train kicking, should we train bare foot, or should we train with shoes on?
> 
> Some people may say that he just wants to train MA for sport (indoor environment). Should we set that unnecessary limitation to ourselves?


That really depends on where I'm at. If I'm at a beach or pool (or coming from them), I won't have shoes on. Same if I'm at someone's house/possibly a backyard. If your plain is to kick, and you plan to have your foot (versus just your shin) involved, you really should train both IMO. The same logic as why I encourage people to train in jeans sometimes, or with a hoodie on.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> you really should train both IMO.


Agree! I find the "roundhouse kick with toes" is very difficult to do with cowboy boots on.


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## jobo (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! I find the "roundhouse kick with toes" is very difficult to do with cowboy boots on.


cant you back kick them with your spurs


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## skribs (Jan 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Twisting kick (bitureo chagi) - feels like there's not as much power in it as other available kicks and like a super unnatural position for the knee and hip (and as I've had surgery on both knees I'm really protective if I have to do unnatural positions). Fortunately it's not in Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae so I don't have to do it or demonstrate it often.



I personally find the outward crescent kick worse.  At least with the twist kick, you're hitting in line with the knee.  The outward crescent kick is across the knee, which is more dangerous and less powerful.  I don't see much reason to use that over a hook kick.  I'd rather pivot my hips at the apex and turn it into a hook kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

skribs said:


> The outward crescent kick is across the knee, which is more dangerous and less powerful.


The outward crescent kick is a very important skill used in Chinese wrestling. You can use it to escape almost all low leg attack such as: foot sweep, shin bite, scoop, scoop kick, sticky kick, diagonal cut, outer hook, ...

You try to attack my leg. I move my leg out of your attacking path, and lead you into the emptiness. It has great value in defense.


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## Taipan (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The outward crescent kick is a very important skill used in Chinese wrestling. You can use it to escape almost all low leg attack such as: foot sweep, shin bite, scoop, scoop kick, sticky kick, diagonal cut, outer hook, ...
> 
> You try to attack my leg. I move my leg out of your attacking path, and lead you into the emptiness. It has great value in defense.



The problem though is the footwork that comes with it.

If I saw someone in that position the last thing I'd do is attack the leg. Their balance is so compromised I'd just lay into them.

And don't get me wrong, I've never practiced much wushu bit it looks like the faintest push would send them sprawling on their back.

Do you primarily use this a a balance recovery technique? Then I could see some use to it.


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## Buka (Jan 13, 2021)

I also don't have much use for that inverse round kick (sometimes called an inverted roundhouse) that I've seen a few clubs.


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## dvcochran (Jan 13, 2021)

skribs said:


> I personally find the outward crescent kick worse.  At least with the twist kick, you're hitting in line with the knee.  The outward crescent kick is across the knee, which is more dangerous and less powerful.  I don't see much reason to use that over a hook kick.  I'd rather pivot my hips at the apex and turn it into a hook kick.


If you are in an open stance and want to keep your stance open, outside crescent. A devastating counter to spins. If you are already closed stance and want to stay that way, hook kick. Often a skipping/sliding kick. Back leg works if you want to end up closed stance.
I think nearly everyone can make a higher kick with the crescent and it is easier. I agree it you are just swatting and not that worried about distance or penetration the hook kick is faster. But much harder to make good power without the spin. 
I have seen a lot of people throw a crescent kick in form but turn their foot like a hook kick. Good/bad? I cannot really say. It definitely changes the recovery and post kick dynamics.


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## dvcochran (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! I find the "roundhouse kick with toes" is very difficult to do with cowboy boots on.


I would hate to be kicked in the face with a pair of roach stompers. That pointed toe would be wicked.


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## skribs (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The outward crescent kick is a very important skill used in Chinese wrestling. You can use it to escape almost all low leg attack such as: foot sweep, shin bite, scoop, scoop kick, sticky kick, diagonal cut, outer hook, ...
> 
> You try to attack my leg. I move my leg out of your attacking path, and lead you into the emptiness. It has great value in defense.



The motion to avoid a sweep?  Good.  As a kick?  Not as happy with it.


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## dvcochran (Jan 13, 2021)

skribs said:


> The motion to avoid a sweep?  Good.  As a kick?  Not as happy with it.


Yea, I do not get that one at all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

Taipan said:


> If I saw someone in that position the last thing I'd do is attack the leg.


That's training. If you can do outward crescent kick from a low stance, you can do it from any higher stance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

skribs said:


> The motion to avoid a sweep?  Good.  As a kick?  Not as happy with it.


The defense value of the outward crescent kick is higher than the offense usage of it. For offense, the hook kick is better than the outward crescent kick.

IMO, the harder that you kick with your outward crescent kick, the more pressure that you will put on your knee joint "side way". The hook kick doesn't have the "side way" knee movement issue.

The knee is to be moved forward and backward. If you try to move it side way, you will break it.


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## paitingman (Jan 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. Pretty useless kick.


Dang really? This might be my favorite. 
Lol I know people don't like it, but I've got 2 KOs with this kick. 

When sparring Muay Thai I land this as a head kick all the time. 
From a fake teep kick, or from a fake switch-low rh I can really whip this one up there. 

I only started using it in Muay Thai though.
Against a side on stance I wouldn't even bother

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## dvcochran (Jan 13, 2021)

paitingman said:


> Dang really? This might be my favorite.
> Lol I know people don't like it, but I've got 2 KOs with this kick.
> 
> When sparring Muay Thai I land this as a head kick all the time.
> ...


Awesome! I will change my response to a useless kick for me. As others have said it is rough on the knees. I am not certain I ever have the mobility to do much with it.


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## dvcochran (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's training. If you can do outward crescent kick from a low stance, you can do it from any higher stance.


Sorry Sir, but I cannot at all agree with that idea.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jan 13, 2021)

Biggest pet peeve is teaching the 1 step sparring technique of defending a punch with a crescent kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Sorry Sir, but I cannot at all agree with that idea.


In training, you use low stance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Sorry Sir, but I cannot at all agree with that idea.


In training, you use low stance because you want to continue your body spinning.






In application, you don't need to drop that low. The outward crescent kick doesn't need to be high. As log as it's high enough to let your opponent's sweeping leg yo pass under it.

- Your opponent uses right leg to sweep your leading left leg.
- You use left outward crescent kick to escape that foot sweep.
- You land your left leg behind your right leg. By using the same body rotation, you pull your opponent's right arm, shift weight onto your left leg, use your right leg to horse back kick your opponent's leading leg, and throw him.


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## dvcochran (Jan 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In training, you use low stance.


Very style specific. Not sure how practical though.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 14, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> One of my old sensei's I swear had a metal toe. It was absolutely painful getting hit in the ribs with his toe, and when he aimed it right, it hurt more than his shin.



Thats not as bad as what i had in my mind, of doing a really high kick to the skull and the only thing makign contact being your toe, for that you might as well ahve just front kicked them in the knee or something. 

and this has just made me rememebr some people have you instep kick with your toes as opposed to shin or top of your foot.  barefootedat that. 


As for the footware comment @jobo   TKD is barefooted, thats pretty much the norm and rule, they make little consideration to the dynamics of kicking with shoes on and which types.    You cant pull off many of their fancy kicks in boots anyway.  My side kick is using the edge of my foot because i have done it in shoes more than i have barefooted and thats how my shoe sort of forced my foot to go. which on reflection just now may be one of the reasons some styles do it that way as norm.




Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since the day that we will use our MA skill to defend ourselves on the street, we will have shoes on. When we train kicking, should we train bare foot, or should we train with shoes on?
> 
> Some people may say that he just wants to train MA for sport (indoor environment). Should we set that unnecessary limitation to ourselves?



Not nessisarily, if somone breaks into your house you are probbly shoeless or maybe have slippers.  Its militantly cultrual that way in some places like japan.  But as for how most people live, shoes tend to come off when they get home unless they plan on going out again shortly.


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## jobo (Jan 14, 2021)

Rat said:


> Thats not as bad as what i had in my mind, of doing a really high kick to the skull and the only thing makign contact being your toe, for that you might as well ahve just front kicked them in the knee or something.
> 
> and this has just made me rememebr some people have you instep kick with your toes as opposed to shin or top of your foot.  barefootedat that.
> 
> ...


most of the complexites with kicking techniques are exactly trying to use you bare foot as a weapon, which needs exacxt techniques and targeting, or it doesnt hurt that much or hurts you more,

if that matters much to you depends on context,  belts it matters, competition it matters,  general self defence some what less, unless it happen at the beach etal.

i dont spend much time barefoot at the beach or unfortunately get invited to a lot of pool parties, at home a weapon is likely to come to hand, so who needs kicks if you have a rounders  bat.

its a value judgment if the practice  time, equals the benifit it gives, i think not, others clearly think differently


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## paitingman (Jan 14, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Awesome! I will change my response to a useless kick for me. As others have said it is rough on the knees. I am not certain I ever have the mobility to do much with it.


I agree that it requires a certain range of motion.
I can throw this comfortably at full force with my right leg. No strain or pain ever, but I developed that specifically over months and maintain it still.
Try as I might I can't execute the kick with my left. I decided it's not worth trying to develop both sides. 

I also land it a lot from a fake or failed Ashi Barai with my right arm and leg (if anyone knows a Korean term for this or learned this in TKD, pls let me know)

I do recognize the dangers of Bituro/NaeChagi though. I don't know if I'd ever teach this technique to anyone, but I took the journey for myself just out of pure interest and it's now a useful tool for me; however, I will say goodbye to it when my body says so. 

What I do have a problem with is pump kicks! 
They look nice for demos, and may score points, but the risk:reward is just not enough for me to justify being on one leg for very long. 


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## dvcochran (Jan 14, 2021)

paitingman said:


> I agree that it requires a certain range of motion.
> I can throw this comfortably at full force with my right leg. No strain or pain ever, but I developed that specifically over months and maintain it still.
> Try as I might I can't execute the kick with my left. I decided it's not worth trying to develop both sides.
> 
> ...


Not common in the TKD vernacular but I think it would be something like bahl (foot) sseulgi (sweep). That is the common noun for sweep the formal noun is 'seuwipeu'. The common verbs would be 'teolda' or 'keun nolo jeosda'. 
It is a very hard language for me to follow.


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## dvcochran (Jan 14, 2021)

skribs said:


> The motion to avoid a sweep?  Good.  As a kick?  Not as happy with it.


You are the second person who said they are not a fan of the outside crescent. What is your issue with it?


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## skribs (Jan 15, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> You are the second person who said they are not a fan of the outside crescent. What is your issue with it?





skribs said:


> I personally find the outward crescent kick worse. At least with the twist kick, you're hitting in line with the knee. The outward crescent kick is across the knee, which is more dangerous and less powerful. I don't see much reason to use that over a hook kick. I'd rather pivot my hips at the apex and turn it into a hook kick.


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## paitingman (Jan 15, 2021)

I don't feel there's significant force on the knee doing it but that's my knees. 
Do yours hurt or does it just sketch you out?

I find that hook kick requires more distance between me and the opponent. Really out of the range for me to try outside crescent kick.

I do tend to favor hook kick, but because I rarely put myself in position for outside crescent. I land inside crescent all the time, but yeah outside just doesn't come up for me.

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## dvcochran (Jan 15, 2021)

I do think it is a preference and flexibility thing. Back in the day I could put a front kick on the chin or an inside/outside crescent kick on the side of the head from inside clinch range. I could never do that from a hook/side kick position. 
A person has to be leaning Way back on a spinning kick to get out of the path of an outside crescent. A miss would still knock them down.


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## dvcochran (Jan 15, 2021)

paitingman said:


> I don't feel there's significant force on the knee doing it but that's my knees.
> Do yours hurt or does it just sketch you out?
> 
> I find that hook kick requires more distance between me and the opponent. Really out of the range for me to try outside crescent kick.
> ...


I can't say I have noticed a force issue on an outside kick but do feel it on inside kicks sometimes. 

Fully agree on the spacing for a hook kick. 

Are you saying you mostly fight from a closed stance? Is this why crescents are not of choice? 

If you are timing for inside crescents are you not in an open stance during the kick. I feel it is just as much about timing and more opponent position specific for outside kicks. Love to use them on spinners.


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## skribs (Jan 15, 2021)

paitingman said:


> I don't feel there's significant force on the knee doing it but that's my knees.
> Do yours hurt or does it just sketch you out?
> 
> I find that hook kick requires more distance between me and the opponent. Really out of the range for me to try outside crescent kick.
> ...



That's the direction of impact I see in NFL games when someone tears a ligament in their knee.


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## dvcochran (Jan 16, 2021)

skribs said:


> That's the direction of impact I see in NFL games when someone tears a ligament in their knee.


Most ACL injures are caused from landing or pivoting poorly. If a person has even average muscular fitness I do not see the crescent motion causing a problem. 
The exception would be if the leg was somehow trapped and the lower leg became a big moment load or a lever knee to foot. That could make for a bad day.


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## paitingman (Jan 16, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Most ACL injures are caused from landing or pivoting poorly. If a person has even average muscular fitness I do not see the crescent motion causing a problem.
> The exception would be if the leg was somehow trapped and the lower leg became a big moment load or a lever knee to foot. That could make for a bad day.


Fully agree. I've seen and played in football games where an ACL tear occurred. Hate to see it. 
The situation, forces, and impact are far from what you find when kicking someone in the head imo. 

1. I feel like the foot and ankle absorbs a lot of impact before significant force gets to the knee. 
2. I'm kicking someone in the head generally and not the trunk (or a tree trunk), so there's not much resistance
3. There is little to no truly horizontal force going across my knee when I do it. If my foot is going horizontally (parallel to the floor) upon impact, then I feel like I have made contact just after my whip has cracked if that makes sense. For my kick, the power zone is still on the rise, maybe just before the peak of the arch my foot travels in. 

Also anecdotally, I too have seen quite a few pro athletes tear an ACL midgame. But I've conservatively seen thousands of outside crescent kicks (hard ones) landed by average Joes and Janes and not seen someone hurt the ACL of their kicking leg.


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## paitingman (Jan 16, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I can't say I have noticed a force issue on an outside kick but do feel it on inside kicks sometimes.
> 
> Fully agree on the spacing for a hook kick.
> 
> ...


It may just be because I haven't done Olympic sparring in a few years. 
If I'm in open stance and close enough to land outside crescent, I'm usually preoccupied with not wanting to get punched in the face. I've naturally distanced myself before the option really presents itself. 
I don't even feel like I could land it unless my lead leg is in between their legs, and I just don't tend to put myself in that position especially at that range. 
It may be a good surprise option that I could use should I be put there though.


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## Ivan (Jan 19, 2021)

Not with specific techniques but lack of them. After I moved up from white to yellow belt in ITF, I wasn't even one hand technique since.


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Not with specific techniques but lack of them. After I moved up from white to yellow belt in ITF, I wasn't even one hand technique since.



I'd be shocked to find there's no new hand techniques in the forms.

Even out of the forms, this is going to depend on the individual school's curriculum more than anything else.  My school has new punches about half the time when you get a new belt.  White and yellow do the same, purple and orange do the same, and then everything from green through red is the same.  Black belts get a lot of new punches right away, and then a few new ones here and there starting at 3rd degree.  We have a *lot* of new rote punch combinations, but as far as individual techniques, a lot are repeats.

The curriculum I'm developing moves away from rote memorization.  It has new techniques (punches, kicks, blocks) and concepts for every belt group, and then new forms and self-defense concepts for each individual belt.  So in that system, you would have new hand techniques every 2-3 belts.

Even if your school doesn't do new punches every other belt or so, I imagine that you learn new hand techniques in the forms.  Unless ITF forms all use the same basic hand techniques.


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## Ivan (Jan 20, 2021)

skribs said:


> I'd be shocked to find there's no new hand techniques in the forms.
> 
> Even out of the forms, this is going to depend on the individual school's curriculum more than anything else.  My school has new punches about half the time when you get a new belt.  White and yellow do the same, purple and orange do the same, and then everything from green through red is the same.  Black belts get a lot of new punches right away, and then a few new ones here and there starting at 3rd degree.  We have a *lot* of new rote punch combinations, but as far as individual techniques, a lot are repeats.
> 
> ...


Honestly, after white/yellow belt, there is nothing that we can apply in our sparring. All we are tuaght is hooks and punches as well as knife-hands and ridge hands. Yes there are more hand techniques in forms such as spear hands, but we aren't taught how to properly apply them; in fact, we are discouraged to use some techniques such as twin punches in sparring.

I have always tried to apply all of them, I even managed to pull off a good, hard-hitting spear hand thanks to years of pushups on my fingers. Nevertheless, all our target practice, sparring, and other drills are solely focused on kicks. Hand techniques are only practiced in sparring and forms, as well as these exercises called "one steps". There should be much more emphasis on the hands in my opinion, especially since we aren't taught to block in sparring i.e. the blocks used in forms are the only ones we learn, and they aren't as practical in sparring, so everyone has their own manner of avoiding hits.


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## dvcochran (Jan 20, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Honestly, after white/yellow belt, there is nothing that we can apply in our sparring. All we are tuaght is hooks and punches as well as knife-hands and ridge hands. Yes there are more hand techniques in forms such as spear hands, but we aren't taught how to properly apply them; in fact, we are discouraged to use some techniques such as twin punches in sparring.
> 
> I have always tried to apply all of them, I even managed to pull off a good, hard-hitting spear hand thanks to years of pushups on my fingers. Nevertheless, all our target practice, sparring, and other drills are solely focused on kicks. Hand techniques are only practiced in sparring and forms, as well as these exercises called "one steps". There should be much more emphasis on the hands in my opinion, especially since we aren't taught to block in sparring i.e. the blocks used in forms are the only ones we learn, and they aren't as practical in sparring, so everyone has their own manner of avoiding hits.


What style school are you in?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 20, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Honestly, after white/yellow belt, there is nothing that we can apply in our sparring. All we are tuaght is hooks and punches as well as knife-hands and ridge hands. Yes there are more hand techniques in forms such as spear hands, but we aren't taught how to properly apply them; in fact, we are discouraged to use some techniques such as twin punches in sparring.
> 
> I have always tried to apply all of them, I even managed to pull off a good, hard-hitting spear hand thanks to years of pushups on my fingers. Nevertheless, all our target practice, sparring, and other drills are solely focused on kicks. Hand techniques are only practiced in sparring and forms, as well as these exercises called "one steps". There should be much more emphasis on the hands in my opinion, especially since we aren't taught to block in sparring i.e. the blocks used in forms are the only ones we learn, and they aren't as practical in sparring, so everyone has their own manner of avoiding hits.


This sounds a lot more like a school issue than a style issue. If you're learning something in forms, you should be learning application. Otherwise there's no point in learning/practicing the forms.


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## Ivan (Jan 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This sounds a lot more like a school issue than a style issue. If you're learning something in forms, you should be learning application. Otherwise there's no point in learning/practicing the forms.


I completely agree. Sadly, this was this only club I could attend, as I lived in a village with little martial arts opportunities. Nevertheless, the club was very good in terms of sparring and did a lot of things right.


dvcochran said:


> What style school are you in?


It was an ITF Taekwondo club, but with a custom curriculum with slightly altered variations of the original forms. Currently, since I moved to university, I joined the university's WTF Taekwondo club, and though we haven't gotten to do sparring, I am not feeling too good about it. I dislike WTF style in general; so much hopping about and too many monkey kicks.

For example, the axe kick in my ITF club was very powerful, where we would lieterally stamp on the opponent's head or shoulders if we used (though very rarely and never at full power). In contrast, the WTF club uses it only as a kick to score points and like a weird, top-down variation of a hook kick. They expect us to snap it backwards, which is weird and feels like a kick that is only used to score points, not do damage.


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## Ivan (Jan 20, 2021)

skribs said:


> I personally find the outward crescent kick worse.  At least with the twist kick, you're hitting in line with the knee.  The outward crescent kick is across the knee, which is more dangerous and less powerful.  I don't see much reason to use that over a hook kick.  I'd rather pivot my hips at the apex and turn it into a hook kick.


I always thought the outside crescent kick was dangerous; I am good at it, and I enjoy executing it. But every single time I throw it, I feel like if it's blocked well enough, it could dislocate my knee. I am honestly convinced the kick is supposed to block circular punches in a way that sets you up for a front kick with the other leg.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 20, 2021)

Ivan said:


> For example, the axe kick in my ITF club was very powerful, where we would lieterally stamp on the opponent's head or shoulders if we used (though very rarely and never at full power). In contrast, the WTF club uses it only as a kick to score points and like a weird, top-down variation of a hook kick. They expect us to snap it backwards, which is weird and feels like a kick that is only used to score points, not do damage.


That's exactly what it is. It's what happens when the purpose of training is primarily for a competition-you start learning what works in the competition, not in real life.

There's normally a lot of crossover there, but less so for point-sparring comps.


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## Buka (Jan 20, 2021)

On the outside crescent....

Once you develop advanced kicking skills, here’s something you guys might try. Throw that outside crescent with a hop, like a hoping side kick. Throw it with the front leg. From almost a side stance. It’s hard to see it coming at you, it’s difficult to avoid, it goes over the top of guard, you can angle it different ways from different angles.

The best way to defend against it is to charge in and jam.

Best way to counter that jam, even if they catch your thigh, is a scissor take down.


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## skribs (Jan 20, 2021)

Ivan said:


> Honestly, after white/yellow belt, there is nothing that we can apply in our sparring. All we are tuaght is hooks and punches as well as knife-hands and ridge hands. Yes there are more hand techniques in forms such as spear hands, but we aren't taught how to properly apply them; in fact, we are discouraged to use some techniques such as twin punches in sparring.
> 
> I have always tried to apply all of them, I even managed to pull off a good, hard-hitting spear hand thanks to years of pushups on my fingers. Nevertheless, all our target practice, sparring, and other drills are solely focused on kicks. Hand techniques are only practiced in sparring and forms, as well as these exercises called "one steps". There should be much more emphasis on the hands in my opinion, especially since we aren't taught to block in sparring i.e. the blocks used in forms are the only ones we learn, and they aren't as practical in sparring, so everyone has their own manner of avoiding hits.



I've always found there to be a disconnect in Taekwondo.  The forms, sparring, and self-defense are not connected well at all.  I agree 100% that many of the blocks in the forms don't have a direct application.  But there is more than just those in the forms.  There are some techniques that work well.

Similarly, the limited nature of sparring is a bit of a conundrum.  

Outside of forms (which I plan to teach for their other benefits), I mainly plan on only looking at hand techniques as they could be used.  That's how my curriculum is built.


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## Ivan (Jan 21, 2021)

skribs said:


> I've always found there to be a disconnect in Taekwondo.  The forms, sparring, and self-defense are not connected well at all.  I agree 100% that many of the blocks in the forms don't have a direct application.  But there is more than just those in the forms.  There are some techniques that work well.
> 
> Similarly, the limited nature of sparring is a bit of a conundrum.
> 
> Outside of forms (which I plan to teach for their other benefits), I mainly plan on only looking at hand techniques as they could be used.  That's how my curriculum is built.


That's a very good idea. I feel like in many clubs and different martial arts I have trained, you are expected to pick up the blocks just from forms. Only my boxing and capoeira classes specifically focused on training the application and movement of blocks.


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## paitingman (Jan 21, 2021)

skribs said:


> I've always found there to be a disconnect in Taekwondo.  The forms, sparring, and self-defense are not connected well at all.  I agree 100% that many of the blocks in the forms don't have a direct application.  But there is more than just those in the forms.  There are some techniques that work well.
> 
> Similarly, the limited nature of sparring is a bit of a conundrum.
> 
> Outside of forms (which I plan to teach for their other benefits), I mainly plan on only looking at hand techniques as they could be used.  That's how my curriculum is built.


Very cool. 
To fill in the spaces, are you doing more of a personal exploration or drawing from Hapkido and potentially other arts? Both?
What arts can you see yourself researching further on your journey?


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## dvcochran (Jan 21, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I completely agree. Sadly, this was this only club I could attend, as I lived in a village with little martial arts opportunities. Nevertheless, the club was very good in terms of sparring and did a lot of things right.
> 
> It was an ITF Taekwondo club, but with a custom curriculum with slightly altered variations of the original forms. Currently, since I moved to university, I joined the university's WTF Taekwondo club, and though we haven't gotten to do sparring, I am not feeling too good about it. I dislike WTF style in general; so much hopping about and too many monkey kicks.
> 
> For example, the axe kick in my ITF club was very powerful, where we would lieterally stamp on the opponent's head or shoulders if we used (though very rarely and never at full power). In contrast, the WTF club uses it only as a kick to score points and like a weird, top-down variation of a hook kick. They expect us to snap it backwards, which is weird and feels like a kick that is only used to score points, not do damage.



Ivan, we had discussion on this very topic last night. 
A young 1st Dan asked when he should use the crescent kick. As with most any kick, the answer has to be measured based on the person asking it and the rest of the audience. So I asked the young man to give some verbal descriptions of how to use the kick.(we were working on the outside crescent). He immediately went to the common disarming idea. Then I asked him to give us an example. I grabbed a kicking mitt and said it was my knife. He line up all formal and swung his leg totally missing the target. When I asked why, he did not have an answer. We proceeded to spend another 5-10 minutes talking about how repetition and 'muscle memory' can be good and bad. 
The young BB is a very diligent student and attends a lot of classes. Very much a thinker. He has easily done thousands of crescent kicks for warmups. I explained how the motion of the kick he tried to 'disarm' me with was nearly identical in motion to the warmup kick. You could see in his eyes he had one of those "aha" moments.

I say all this to say I feel you comments reflect the mindset of someone with limited practice/repetition under their belt. A person can be very good at performing/using a kick a certain way. Fleshing out that there are several variations of almost every kick AND being able to identify and adjust in real time is a good sing of seasoning in someone training. 

We spent the next 1-1/2 hours working only on the different kinds of outside crescents and when to apply them. Adults suited up and went full speed/power the last 1/2 hour. Targeted sparring. A great class.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 21, 2021)

skribs said:


> I'd be shocked to find there's no new hand techniques in the forms.
> 
> Even out of the forms, this is going to depend on the individual school's curriculum more than anything else.  My school has new punches about half the time when you get a new belt.  White and yellow do the same, purple and orange do the same, and then everything from green through red is the same.  Black belts get a lot of new punches right away, and then a few new ones here and there starting at 3rd degree.  We have a *lot* of new rote punch combinations, but as far as individual techniques, a lot are repeats.
> e
> ...



The longer I train, the less "blocking" I do and the fewer number of overall techniques I use.  But I'm able to do more with less.  A lot of it is application.  *So it's not about learning new moves, but learning new applications for the moves you know.*

As a rough example:  The word "bow" as in bending at the waist to show respect.  You might know and use this word for years.  But then you learn "bow" can be used to describe the knot when you tie your shoe or wrap a present.  Wow!  The same word with different inflection, and a whole new meaning and application.  Then you learn that "bow" can also be used to propel a sharp stick thru the air as a weapon, or even to make music with a cello or violin.  Another whole new word application for something you already know how to spell and pronounce.  So now one word has become three or four words!!!

In most styles, the forms hold the key to the various applications of a particular move.  You don't need three series of techniques to deal with three different attacks.  Just one series can be applied to deal with them, with little or no modification!  Advancing thru the higher belts is not so much a matter of learning new punches or kicks or blocks, but learning new ways to apply them.

So contrary to what has been said in other threads about higher degrees of black belt not learning anything new, there is much to explore and master, providing you have the initiative, full understanding of basics, and a good guide to help you along.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 21, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The longer I train, the less "blocking" I do and the fewer number of overall techniques I use.  But I'm able to do more with less.  A lot of it is application.  *So it's not about learning new moves, but learning new applications for the moves you know.*
> 
> ...
> 
> In most styles, the forms hold the key to the various applications of a particular move.  You don't need three series of techniques to deal with three different attacks.  Just one series can be applied to deal with them, with little or no modification!  Advancing thru the higher belts is not so much a matter of learning new punches or kicks or blocks, but learning new ways to apply them.



The trick with this though is that, if you and I were to go through the same program, learning the same 3 series of techniques, we might both expand on different techniques. So while I've learned 5 different ways to apply a half-moon, and have really got it down, while you may have brushed over that, but know all the ways to make the most out of a cat stance as a countering set-up, which I vaguely know about. 
And we pick our favorites to expand on largely based on our own personalities and fighting styles (assuming the basics were taught equally). So it's important at the beginning to have learned all the different techniques so that we each know what we want to focus on. The cool thing is that it means no matter how long you're training for, you're almost guaranteed to have another technique that you can delve into on learning new applications/against resistance.


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## skribs (Jan 21, 2021)

Ivan said:


> That's a very good idea. I feel like in many clubs and different martial arts I have trained, you are expected to pick up the blocks just from forms. Only my boxing and capoeira classes specifically focused on training the application and movement of blocks.



I do think some of that is on the individual school, and some of it is that the forms themselves are often not very practical.



paitingman said:


> Very cool.
> To fill in the spaces, are you doing more of a personal exploration or drawing from Hapkido and potentially other arts? Both?
> What arts can you see yourself researching further on your journey?



Personal exploration, Hapkido, and I'd like to pick up BJJ when I'm done training at my current school.  Plus I've gained a lot of information from videos for boxing and muay thai.  Most of the BJJ schools seem to also have a Muay Thai/Kickboxing/MMA Striking class available, so when I go to BJJ, I'll probably take that as well.  If I have time.



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The trick with this though is that, if you and I were to go through the same program, learning the same 3 series of techniques, we might both expand on different techniques. So while I've learned 5 different ways to apply a half-moon, and have really got it down, while you may have brushed over that, but know all the ways to make the most out of a cat stance as a countering set-up, which I vaguely know about.



This is why I'm trying to teach techniques and concepts instead of rote memorization.  The basic idea is that if I teach you 10 rote things, then you've learned 10 things.  Or I can teach 5 techniques and 5 concepts, and I've taught you 25 things.  I know it won't always work exactly like that, but that's the general idea.


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## dvcochran (Jan 22, 2021)

skribs said:


> This is why I'm trying to teach techniques and concepts instead of rote memorization. The basic idea is that if I teach you 10 rote things, then you've learned 10 things. Or I can teach 5 techniques and 5 concepts, and I've taught you 25 things. I know it won't always work exactly like that, but that's the general idea.



I think I fully get what your intention is. In the 5 and 5 idea, the 5 techniques would be somewhat concrete and easy to convey as the instructor and thus should be easier for the student to process and digest. Things like training time would be fairly predictable. Pretty much current standard platform training. 
It seems to me in the 5 concepts there will be a good amount of variability, in about every category I can think of. It just takes some people longer to 'get it' than it does others. A pretty cool thing to watch transpire from the instructors viewpoint.

I do not think the teaching model is broken so bad it needs to be blown up to fix it. Just like in every other teach/learn model some people (instructor) are better teachers than others.
I truly believe much of your searching and possible frustration stems from the realization that there is a lot more out there in the MA world than what you have experienced. A very good thing. And I commend your response to it. Searching, seeking, planning to do it a better way. Pretty darn cool.


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## skribs (Jan 22, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I do not think the teaching model is broken so bad it needs to be blown up to fix it. Just like in every other teach/learn model some people (instructor) are better teachers than others.



The problem I have with rote memorization is you either limit your scope or you cast too wide a net.  For my next test, I'm expected to know:

57x rote combinations
73x short forms (i.e. self-defense 1-steps or weapon drills)
26x long forms (Taegeuks, Yudanja, weapon forms, and local forms)
That's *not including* the following that I need to know as an instructor for the colored belt class:

11x rote combinations
96x short forms
12x long forms
For a grand total of 66 combos, 169 short forms, and 38 long forms.  You must even memorize which combo or form goes with which number.  For example, if on the test he says "Punching #17", I have to do the punching combo that he's numbered as #17.  This is just for my 3rd Dan, 4th Gup (essentially Black Belt 3.4) and to be an instructor.  I'll need more for 4th Dan.  My Master has even admitted to me that no other student can retain the entire curriculum like I can.  It was simultaneously flattering and depressing.  

Then there's the issue that because we have so much, you're allowed to brain dump half of it every couple of belts.  Students retain the ability, but they forget the numbers.  I see this when students help out with a lower level class, or when students come back after a hiatus.  But it's really hard to teach when you can't remember.  Also, students tend to practice the memorization more than the actual technique.  I've seen most students (including myself) do abbreviated versions of the techniques while we practice the memorization.  That's a habit I would rather students not be tempted to form.

This is why I wanted to go for vocabulary instead.  Punch combinations numbered 2, 4, 7, 9 and 11 all use the same concept, but with different punches.  Punch #15 is essentially #11 with three more punches added on.  Punch #13 is #4 and #6 combined together.  (I joke that our math is bad, because 4 + 6 = 13).  The same happens with kicks.  Kick #11 is Kick #6 re-arranged.  Kick #14 and Kick #17 are the same concept, but with a different kick.  Kick #22 is literally Kick #21 + Kick #19 (with one change at the end).  

Instead of that, I'd rather teach the concept of how you can use footwork or combine techniques together.  I can condense (as I said above), but I can also expand.  For example, one concept is spinning hand strikes.  I can focus on that concept and do spinning chop, spinning elbow, spinning hammerfist, and spinning backfist.  Another day I may focus on elbow strikes of all forms.  Another day I may focus on how to use each type of strike as a counter-attack (i.e. palm block and backfist, inside block and spinning strike, outside block and chop).  It's a lot harder to do that when everything is rote.

One thing that's interesting is that 95% of my Master's curriculum has found its way into mine.  The techniques and concepts I've picked up are all there.  But they are condensed into vocabulary, and given the additional benefit of not needing to memorize the number association.  And because it's mostly vocabulary instead of memorization, it should be easier for instructors to go back, or for returning students to pick up where they left off.

So, I did blow it up.  And I left it intact.  I think that was the best way to preserve what I've learned and pass it on.  Of course, it's still a work in progress.


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## dvcochran (Jan 22, 2021)

I agree and feel that is way too much to cover in one scenario. It leads to the college summer semester cram session; and the binge & purge of information. To me, it does not make a lot of sense to encourage that through any curriculum. No matter the rank, I would much rather see someone who is really strong in several specifics over someone who just knows a lot of stuff. I do not believe anyone recall is that solid for an extended period if they have any kind of life outside of their school/class. 
And I also agree that not using the actual names would be a hinderance. Possibly with kids early on but would have to dynamically change over. 
I am certain I cannot name all the derivatives of the base techniques/drills/forms/sparring techniques/SD I know immediately in a given moment. But I am confident I can recall them in a timely fashion and more importantly convey the material to someone else in a teaching environment.

So when your school/instructor covers all this material, is it always fragmented or individualized? Does he/she work on how/when/why to tie the material together?


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## skribs (Jan 22, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> So when your school/instructor covers all this material, is it always fragmented or individualized? Does he/she work on how/when/why to tie the material together?



We spend so much time going over the rote material, there often isn't time for much else.


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## dvcochran (Jan 23, 2021)

skribs said:


> We spend so much time going over the rote material, there often isn't time for much else.


I agree that is simply counter-productive. Makes me think of the old saying "paralysis by analysis".


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## skribs (Jan 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I agree that is simply counter-productive. Makes me think of the old saying "paralysis by analysis".



Well, I've definitely spent a lot of time on analysis.  I figured there are 5 aspects of TKD, at least as far as my Master's curriculum is concerned:

Techniques (punches, kicks, blocks)
Forms
Weapons
Self-Defense (short forms, grappling concepts, etc)
Sparring
His is 80% rote, 20% dynamic.  Sparring is dynamic, but everything else is rote.  I'm 80% dynamic, 20% rote.  Forms are still rote, but everything else dynamic.


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