# Christian Martial Arts Schools



## shesulsa

I'm not sure I understand the difference between a Christian Martial Arts school and any other except the use of the opportunity to spread the word of Christ.

Is there a difference in practices in these schools? Do we have any members here who are members of such a school?


----------



## Eternal Beginner

The two Christian MA clubs that I know members of do small subtle things differently.  They don't bow to a picture of a founder of their MA like many TMA's do, one has eliminated bowing to other members as well.

They don't meditate as some clubs do, but they do ask for everyone to take a minute to pray before class.

I have attended one and honestly, you couldn't see a huge difference between them and a regular dojo.  I'm sure some are more evangelical, but not the two that I know of.


----------



## splazzatch

I study at a Christian Martial Arts school...it is run by my pastor. We do not bow to founders but still bow to other members to show respect. We don't meditate but we pray and focus. We have an emphasis on showing respect to opponents and if we have to defend ourselves on the street our philosophy is that if we can stop them from hurting us without hurting them in the process we have succeeded in showing them the love of christ. We are a private school, with only 5 full time students and maybe 5 students who come when they can. My Sensei/Pastor trained before he became a Christian and felt that he should still teach and train now. He is a 6th Dan and his Son is a 5th Dan and they teach together. 

Our school is called the Lion of Judah Martial Arts Academy.

We also train for free at a local gym owned by a congregation member.


----------



## Touch Of Death

I could see the over use of Christs teachings as a substitute for attitude, logic, basics, and fitness, by poorly qualified instructors that happened to be pastors and whatnot. But I see no conflict otherwise. Its really about the instructor here.
Sean


----------



## Kacey

Many people who do not understand, or ascribe to, the moral side of martial arts see them as opposite to many religions.  Being Jewish, I would never join a martial arts class taught with a Christian theme such as the ones described, but I can certainly see how the moral aspects of martial arts could be incorporated into and taught in conjunction with a particular religion - and as long as all members are aware that that is the orientation of the class, and can choose to participate in the religious aspects or not, as their conscience dictates, I see no problem with it.

As far as the meditation goes - taking a moment to pray and focus IS meditation.  My instructions to my students for mediation are as follows - at the beginning of class, I say "take a moment to clear your mind so you are ready to learn"; at the end of class, I say "take a moment to think about something you learned so you remember it".  That is all meditation is for - although many people do not understand it, especially those watching from the sidelines.  There is no religious significance to it - it is a way to set the time of training apart from the rest of the day, and that is the purpose it serves in many martial arts class.  Certainly, there are other purposes for meditation, but I have never had a parent or student object to meditation the way I use it - and my students have been from every religion present in any number in the US.


----------



## Ping898

I am going slightly off topic - but I just remember when my Catecism (sp) teacher found out I took karate he was afraid they were going to lead me away from the fold......I just found that amusing

I've never been to a Martial Arts school associated with a religion, but personally I don't see a problem with it as long as people know when they are joining that the school has a dual purpose....which isn't what you asked, but is just my two cents on the whole subject...


----------



## Jade Tigress

I suppose it would depend on the school. I am a Christian, my instructor is a Christian, and so are many of the people at our school. However, it is not a "Christian" school. We do not pray in class, we salute the ancestors when we bow in and salute our instructor,  Some Christians view that as worshipping the ancestors or whatever, for us, it's a sign of respect. 

Ping, it doesn't surprise me that you got that reaction from the church. So many Christians/Churches have a problem with martial arts that I just don't understand. 

As with any sect you will have a range of extremes. I think that Christian martial arts schools have personal convictions with traditions in secular martial arts schools that they can't be comfortable abiding by, so they replace or eliminate the things they feel compromises their faith, and train the martial art. 

Also, some secular martial arts schools do teach alot of spirituality with martial arts training ie: Buddhism, Taoism, etc. that could go along the same lines as teaching Christianity with training. 

Personally, as a Christian I would not practice another religion, or worship Buddha, or anything like that. I wouldn't bow or pray to Buddha in a class, but I have no problem showing respect for the ancestors of our system. Likewise, someone who is not a Christian may not feel comfortable praying at a Christian martial arts school.

For me, training is training. I enjoy learning about the religion and culture behind martial arts systems but that doesn't mean I have to practice it. I guess Christians who cannot reconcile their training with their personal convictions would find a way to train without what they feel is compromise. 

I don't think many people who aren't Christians would join a Christian martial arts school. They would find a church if they had an interest in spirituality. I don't know that it's an effective way to "witness" and don't believe that is the core motive behind most Christian martial arts schools.


----------



## splazzatch

I am also not suprised by the reaction you got from your catechism teacher...For most people who don't know Martial Arts or who don't know about Christianity they could see how the two could be totally apart from each other.


----------



## Monadnock

If a school is advertising that they are a Christian MA school, it is most likely to draw in in other Christians. That's what advertising is for. Not that it wouldn't bring in non-Christians.

New students will have to go through the doors to find out just what it means though. Maybe there are references in class to Christianity combined with the school's training philosophy, maybe not. Perhaps the class just begins and ends with prayer.

All in all, nothing wrong with it to me, in fact I wish there were more. Training philosophy has to come from somewhere. I'll take that over the school that focuses on egotistical self-indulgence.


----------



## hong kong fooey

My school is held in a church and the instructer is the pastor of the church. and instead of medatiting we say the lords prayer.


----------



## FearlessFreep

My former teacher was a Christian as were about all of his students.  Part of our memorization for each belt test was a blble verse related to the name of the form in some way.  Our school patch had two words across that looked like a cross and included a 'school verse' that we had to memorize

My current teacher os also Christian but much more sublte about it as he lives in a more diverse neighborhood.  So it's there but not nearly as overt.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Ping, it doesn't surprise me that you got that reaction from the church. So many Christians/Churches have a problem with martial arts that I just don't understand.


 
I do understand. In my experience growing up Rabid Fundamentalist, there are several reasons for this:

1. Ignorance - stereotypes of MA as Eastern cults, false image of the MA practitioner as thug, false information on hand conditioning, etc.
2. Unfortunately, some Christian leaders take uninformed cheap shots at the Martial Arts in order to show how devout they are. These individuals aren't the type of people who would join MA schools anyway, so from their viewpoint,_ why not destroy it for everyone else. This kid really wants to take Karate but I can display my devoutness by strongly recommending that her parents not take this step_. Like most demagogues, they do not bother to take the time to research the subject and instead pull out extreme examples to make their uninformed case. This does not matter to them because their goal is self-aggrandizement and not truth.
3. Legitimate concerns that Eastern Philosophies and Traditions may conflict with their faith. Some, even many, MA studios DO have a few practices or beliefs that conflict with mainstream Christianity. My family has remained Fundamentalist, but I have not. However, I respect their viewpoint and wishes and now that my twelve year old niece wants to study Karate, I have given her grandparents a list of questions to ask at any Dojo in order to ascertain whether it would conflict with their beliefs or not.

In speaking of some demagogues, who happen also to be Christian, I do not MEAN to knock the vast majority of Christians who are NOT self-aggrandizing and wish only what is best for their children. Unfortunately, any large group will have its selfish sorts. Christianity is no exception.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand the difference between a Christian Martial Arts school and any other except the use of the opportunity to spread the word of Christ.
> 
> Is there a difference in practices in these schools? Do we have any members here who are members of such a school?


 
I was a member of such a school in the 1980's. My experience was very unfortunate and hopefully not the norm. The main people were shameless hypocrites who lied, cheated, did drugs and cheated on their significant others. I think it can go either way, a good school created by those who wish to share their faith as well as create a safe environment where fellow Christians can practice with absolutely no fear of conflict between their MA and faith and schools like the one I attended where Christian lingo, along with high MA ranks from unrecognized associations, was only one more tool of manipulation.


----------



## Makalakumu

I would never study at a christian martial arts school.  That is just my personal preference because I am not a christian.

Other then that, I really have no problem with it.  Sure, some dojos do the combination badly...but this should come as no surprise.  Many non-christian dojos do MA badly.  I have seen it done well before.  A good friend of mine runs a christian dojo in the basement of his church.  He is a fundamentalist and he deals with alot of the stereotypes listed above, yet the biggest positive about Tim's class is that he shows how MA transcends those stereotypes.  Alot of fundamentalist christians are learning that their beliefs and MA can coexist.

When I visited his dojang, I experienced the following.  We stretched at the beginning of class and I introduced myself as Tim's teacher's senior student.  My friend then lined everyone up.  We bowed to Jesus and said a prayer that he had written that asked for aid in concentration and performance.  Tim read a verse from the Bible that he wanted the kids to think about.  After that, we had a normal Tang Soo Do class.  I taught the kids some standing wristlocks and showed them how to take someone down with them and then I showed them how to finish off their opponents with kicks on the ground.  After the class was finished, we lined up and my friend took two minutes to relate the Bible verse to what we learned in class.  I don't remember the actual verse, but the moral of the story was about using power responsibly.  This was a powerful message considering the material that I taught.  We then bowed to Jesus and said a prayer asking for a peaceful life.

Even though I am not a christian, this experience was powerful for me.  I recognized the worth of the combination _to this group of people_ and I was reminded of Shaolin monks using MA to bolster their faith.  The bottom line is that I think the story above illustrates how the Martial Arts, Tang Soo Do in particular, can have a powerful impact on people.  The founder of our art, Hwang Kee, created Tang Soo Do in order to better ourselves...and that is exactly what the people in Tim's dojang were doing.  If he were still alive, I think he would nod his head in approval.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Xue Sheng

I would not define myself as a Christian, but I have no problem with a Christian martial arts school. I have seen a couple, most seemed fine, and one scares me. Most have been as the previous people in the post have described. However I do think you have to make sure they don't cross the line, but that is the same with any MA school.

The one that scares me, crossed the line, and is not far from my house, it started out as a Christian martial arts school a few years ago, and it looked as previously described in the post. But now it has become this religious/unofficial private police training/fighting for Jesus school.

There is a book you might want to check out "Living the Martial way" by Forrest E. Morgan. You would probably be particularly interested in Part 3, Chapter 10.


----------



## Makalakumu

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> But now it has become this religious/unofficial private police training/fighting for Jesus school.


 
I can see some of these schools taking on many cult-like behaviors, but I think that one could also see this in any secular school.  In fact, I know a few schools up in my area where "Devotion to the Master" is stressed a little too much.


----------



## bluemtn

As Hong Kong Fooey said, the 2 of us go to one at a Methodist church.  They give you the option of praying or meditating.  We bow to the class, and the 2 flags (we don't have pictures- never seen one in TKD).  I don't think meditating is bad.  It seems it's like a time to focus/ refocus.  I think for the most part (about it being against Christian beliefs), depends on how you meditate.  I haven't seen it stated that you have to meditate to any particular deity, so I don't fully understand the "it's anti- Christian" bit.  Same for "master".  I don't think it means (or at least now days) Lord of whatever over...  Those are just my thoughts.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I use to teach Tai Chi at a Presbyterian church. The pastor asked me if I would teach on 2 different occasions. The first time I declined because he wanted the class to be only for other ministers, pastors and priests and I could not discuss Qi Gong and he decided after I had already quoted a price that I should do this for free for the church.

The second time was two years later and I was not given any restrictions or rules to follow. The class went fine, I did not preach anything Christian or Taoist, I did discuss Qi Gong and Tai Chi. All went fine.


----------



## IcemanSK

I am a Christian & have been a practicing martial artist for more than 23 years. I'm a seminary graduate & have worked in many churches in various positions (including pastor). I am also in the process of starting my own TKD school. I have trained w/ a lot of martial artists who were Christians, but who weren't "Christian MA-ists".

Because I am a Christian, I use the ethics of my faith in Christ in my teaching. I encourage my students to live by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have them do to you) but I would share no overtly Christian message as part of class. I encorage students to be active in their churches (if that's a part of their lives). I tell them that "Being a good fighter is ONE thing, being a good person is everything." To me, this is as essential a part of the martial arts as a good side kick.

The reason I don't have an overtly Christian message in my class is that I don't think people hear the message strongly when its said so loudly. Christian is a great noun, but a poor adjective. When its used to to describe car repair, MA, music or my dog, it really fails in its intent. And sadly, a lot of folks have had really bad experiences with folks who have put the word Christian in front of their product or service. I'd rather have a parent of my students come to me & ask, "Why do you care so much about my kid?" Then I can share my faith as the reason I teach the way I do. Much like great coaches in other sports (basketball's John Wooden comes to mind) saw their faith as a way to develop character of their players. He was a great coach who was a Christian, not a "Christian basketball coach."


----------



## splazzatch

Iceman, I like what you said and it is very cool to see other Christians on here.


----------



## IcemanSK

splazzatch said:
			
		

> Iceman, I like what you said and it is very cool to see other Christians on here.


 
Thanks. When I was in college, I trained w/ a group of guys who were all Christians. We'd stretch & kick each other while talking about God & vice versa. It was a natural part of our friendship & training. But it wasn't a pre-requiste to train w/ us.

I'm by no means ripping on people who run Christian MA schools. I'm just sharing my point of view.


----------



## Jade Tigress

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> I am a Christian & have been a practicing martial artist for more than 23 years. I'm a seminary graduate & have worked in many churches in various positions (including pastor). I am also in the process of starting my own TKD school. I have trained w/ a lot of martial artists who were Christians, but who weren't "Christian MA-ists".
> 
> Because I am a Christian, I use the ethics of my faith in Christ in my teaching. I encourage my students to live by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have them do to you) but I would share no overtly Christian message as part of class. I encorage students to be active in their churches (if that's a part of their lives). I tell them that "Being a good fighter is ONE thing, being a good person is everything." To me, this is as essential a part of the martial arts as a good side kick.
> 
> The reason I don't have an overtly Christian message in my class is that I don't think people hear the message strongly when its said so loudly. Christian is a great noun, but a poor adjective. When its used to to describe car repair, MA, music or my dog, it really fails in its intent. And sadly, a lot of folks have had really bad experiences with folks who have put the word Christian in front of their product or service. I'd rather have a parent of my students come to me & ask, "Why do you care so much about my kid?" Then I can share my faith as the reason I teach the way I do. Much like great coaches in other sports (basketball's John Wooden comes to mind) saw their faith as a way to develop character of their players. He was a great coach who was a Christian, not a "Christian basketball coach."



Well said, and a much more effective way to share your faith than praying before or after class, or any of the other things discussed, I believe.


----------



## IcemanSK

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Well said, and a much more effective way to share your faith than praying before or after class, or any of the other things discussed, I believe.


 
I wonder if a Christian MA school would really draw non-Christians to them in the 1st place. If prayer is a part of the class, why would someone who doesn't by into it choose THAT school? The draw, I think, would be for believers, not unbelievers. 

Do others have a different experience? Perhaps you joined a Christian MA school because it was a Christian school...although you weren't a practicing believer.


----------



## Jade Tigress

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> I wonder if a Christian MA school would really draw non-Christians to them in the 1st place. If prayer is a part of the class, why would someone who doesn't by into it choose THAT school? The draw, I think, would be for believers, not unbelievers.



No, I don't believe so. I believe Christian MA schools attract Christians who feel certain traditions of non-Christian MA schools compromise their faith. Someone who is not interested in learning about Christianity will not choose a Christian MA school, someone who is interested in Christianity will choose a church. JMO.


----------



## IcemanSK

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> No, I don't believe so. I believe Christian MA schools attract Christians who feel certain traditions of non-Christian MA schools compromise their faith. Someone who is not interested in learning about Christianity will not choose a Christian MA school, someone who is interested in Christianity will choose a church. JMO.


 
That's what I've always wondered. Its for Christians, by Christians. It certainly isn't meant for outreach to non-believers. At least I've not seen it set up that way. I personally think what draws folks to Christ is Christians acting like Christians. If the intend for folks who runs Christian MA is to draw non-Christians, a big emphasis on prayer &/or bible study during class probably wouldn't be a big draw. IMO


----------



## Jade Tigress

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> I personally think what draws folks to Christ is Christians acting like Christians. If the intend for folks who runs Christian MA is to draw non-Christians, a big emphasis on prayer &/or bible study during class probably wouldn't be a big draw. IMO



EXACTLY.  :asian:


----------



## michaeledward

I would never attend your dojo. 

If I choose to exercise commerce with you based on martial arts, I do not want to be subjected to your belief structure. 

Similarly, I don't go to my preacher to learn self-defense.


----------



## monkey

Thogh i did not do or was forced to do Budah.The shaolin start as students-then monks-then abbots-then priest -eventualy master or equal to bishop or of that rank.Now this is the point & it was made clear by Jhoon Ree on A.& E. history (Martial arts can be good or bad-will out philosophy & just punch n kicking that can be very evil.So good for you on a calm path.Peace & happy kicking.


----------



## Kacey

monkey said:
			
		

> Now this is the point & it was made clear by Jhoon Ree on A.& E. history (Martial arts can be good or bad-will out philosophy & just punch n kicking that can be very evil.



This is true, and as an instructor, I consider it my duty to include a moral component - but I limit myself to the morality of using the skills I teach in class.  I do not include a belief system beyond that.  As MichaelEdward said 



> If I choose to exercise commerce with you based on martial arts, I do not want to be subjected to your belief structure.
> 
> Similarly, I don't go to my preacher to learn self-defense.



If religiously-oriented martial arts works for you - great!  However, I would not want to limit my student population to those who are, or are willing to be, members of my religious community.  Understanding comes from encompassing all beliefs, not from limiting oneself to a single set.  On the other hand, I do understand that there are people who would only participate in a martial art in a religious setting, so as to avoid any potential conflicts between the belief system of the art and the belief system of the religion - and for those people, a martial art taught in a religious setting is better than nothing... but it's not the choice for me.


----------



## Carol

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey SW
> Yes, I too wish you success with your dojo. And I wonder if you are still here, can I ask the obvious question of how you reconcile warriorship in the very real and immediate sense to the driving core of Christianity. Are the two not at odds? Thank you
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
I agree with Jenna.   The two do seem to be quite at odds.   

Jesus talked about turning the other cheek and once kicked the money changers out of a temple, if I understand correctly as I am not of the faith.  This flies against teaching someone self-defense and collecting money to do it all in the name of Jesus as the Lord God Almighty.

How does that all work?


----------



## Sacred Warrior

Warriorship has everything to do with Christianity. The two are not at odds. While I don't wish to get into a protracted debate on the issue I would encourage those who disagree (And those who took cheap shots about money...Just to settle that issue right now; we don't admit people based on the ability to pay dues, but on sincerity.If you really want to train and can't afford it, you're ALWAYS welcome.) to look up the many good Christian martial arts sites on the web and read the articles related to the topic.

Let me also point out:

1. We are not a commercial dojo, but a _private_ dojo. Thus we don't need to worry about dues like most schools.

2. We cater specifically to the Christian community or those interested in Biblical spirituality.

In this we are no different than schools that promote meditation, Zen, Mikkyo, Tendai, Taoism, etc. either in principle or in fact.

And if one is not inclined toward our spirituality there are many schools out there to choose from. Christians however don't have that same opportunity, unless of course they are content with martial sports. For those who want to synthesize their discipleship with their martial training we're the answer.

To those who were kind enough to offer your best wishes, *thank you very much*!

Living _with _Purpose, _on _Purpose,
Jake


----------



## michaeledward

Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> Warriorship has everything to do with Christianity. The two are not at odds. While I don't wish to get into a protracted debate on the issue I would encourage those who disagree (And those who took cheap shots about money...Just to settle that issue right now; we don't admit people based on the ability to pay dues, but on sincerity.If you really want to train and can't afford it, you're ALWAYS welcome.) to look up the many good Christian martial arts sites on the web and read the articles related to the topic.
> 
> Let me also point out:
> 
> 1. We are not a commercial dojo, but a _private_ dojo. Thus we don't need to worry about dues like most schools.
> 
> 2. We cater specifically to the Christian community or those interested in Biblical spirituality.
> 
> In this we are no different than schools that promote meditation, Zen, Mikkyo, Tendai, Taoism, etc. either in principle or in fact.
> 
> And if one is not inclined toward our spirituality there are many schools out there to choose from. Christians however don't have that same opportunity, unless of course they are content with martial sports. For those who want to synthesize their discipleship with their martial training we're the answer.
> 
> To those who were kind enough to offer your best wishes, *thank you very much*!
> 
> Living _with _Purpose, _on _Purpose,
> Jake


 
Oh, Please. The Besieged Christians. As if they are an oppressed minority in a country that is more than 85% Christian. Yet spoken with arrogance of only Christians can live on purpose, or with purpose. 

I value what I pay for. If you offer a service for which no recompense is required, I will value it as if no recompense is required. Regardless of whether you think it is a commercial transaction or not, you are offering a good or service. 

And, your slight does nothing to support your premise that Christianity has everything to do with warriorship.


----------



## Ceicei

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I agree with Jenna.   The two do seem to be quite at odds.
> 
> Jesus talked about turning the other cheek and once kicked the money changers out of a temple, if I understand correctly as I am not of the faith. This flies against teaching someone self-defense and collecting money to do it all in the name of Jesus as the Lord God Almighty.
> 
> How does that all work?



Well, I am reminded of some verses in the Bible where Jesus told his disciples to sell their clothing and purchase swords.  (Luke 22:36).  Why else would he advise that, if not for self defense?

Even He knew that there are people out there who have intent to harm.

There are several verses that advocate defense in the scriptures (both Old and New Testaments), so I *do not believe* that Jesus Christ would be a pacifist.  He understood human nature too well.  There is a time for things to happen, and this also includes defense.

- Ceicei


----------



## Sapper6

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Oh, Please. The Besieged Christians. As if they are an oppressed minority in a country that is more than 85% Christian. Yet spoken with arrogance of only Christians can live on purpose, or with purpose.
> 
> I value what I pay for. If you offer a service for which no recompense is required, I will value it as if no recompense is required. Regardless of whether you think it is a commercial transaction or not, you are offering a good or service.
> 
> And, your slight does nothing to support your premise that Christianity has everything to do with warriorship.


 
why don't you chill out michael?  why is it you feel the need to bash the christian belief?  it seems you often take every opportunity you have to badger the faith.  you might have had a bad experience with it once.  if so, i'm sorry to hear that.  the animosity you have of the christian belief is very clear.  it's also unnecessary.

this guy has explicitly stated what and who his school is for.  so it's not for you.  who cares.  there are many others out there that will grow just fine in that environment.  it doesn't make them any less of a martial artist for doing so; and it doesn't make sacred warrior any less of a human being or martial arts teacher for instucting in that particular environment.

i found your post very condescending, offensive, and counter-productive to martialtalk's mission of maintaining a friendly environment.  i ask that you keep your anti-christian rhetoric and rock throwing in the study where it belongs.  you are polluting the thread.  

:asian:


----------



## michaeledward

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i found your post very condescending, offensive, and counter-productive to martialtalk's mission of maintaining a friendly environment.


 
Strange, I found his statement similiarly condescending, offensive, and counter-productive to martialtalks mission.



			
				Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> And those who took cheap shots about money...Just to settle that issue right now; we don't admit people based on the ability to pay dues, but on sincerity.


 


			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i ask that you keep your anti-christian rhetoric and rock throwing in the study where it belongs. you are polluting the thread.


 
That you project onto me 'anti-christian rhetoric', I find similiarly offensive. I am not anti-Christian. I am not anti-any belief structure. I prefer clarity of thought and action. 

I go to the doctor for health. I go to the mechanic to get my car serviced. I go to the market to buy food.

That some would expect to go to the Karate Studio for religious belief and practice is contradictory to the purpose of a Karate Studio, in my opinion.


----------



## Carol

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Well, I am reminded of some verses in the Bible where Jesus told his disciples to sell their clothing and purchase swords. (Luke 22:36). Why else would he advise that, if not for self defense?
> 
> Even He knew that there are people out there who have intent to harm.
> 
> There are several verses that advocate defense in the scriptures (both Old and New Testaments), so I *do not believe* that Jesus Christ would be a pacifist. He understood human nature too well. There is a time for things to happen, and this also includes defense.
> 
> - Ceicei


 
OK, rhat makes sense.      I'm not a Christian myself so I tend to ask rather stupid questions.  I appreciate your input a lot! :asian:


----------



## bluemtn

I follow the rule of there is no stupid questions (well, there are exceptions, but you know what I mean...).  I think that we weren't made to be welcome mats for whomever comes along.  I think also there are quite a few martial arts tennets that coincide with religion (even Christianity) when you think about it.


----------



## Lisa

* Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Moderator
*


----------



## Kacey

Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> 1. We are not a commercial dojo, but a _private_ dojo. Thus we don't need to worry about dues like most schools.



Let me just clarify that when I said limiting your student base, I was referring to the diversity of the students - not the dues they generate.  Having taught at a YMCA for years at a loss, because I enjoy teaching, I'm happy any session I break even.  My comment was not directed at money-making.



			
				Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> 2. We cater specifically to the Christian community or those interested in Biblical spirituality.



As I said, if that's what works for you, great - but it is not my choice for myself or my students.  I enjoy working with people from a wide range of backgrounds, and could not do that in a setting limited to a particular religion or religious belief system.



			
				Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> In this we are no different than schools that promote meditation, Zen, Mikkyo, Tendai, Taoism, etc. either in principle or in fact.



Here, I beg to differ.  Meditation, while used by many religions, is not a religion in itself, nor is it specific to any religion, although certain meditation techniques are taught in religious institutions for religious purposes; that notwithstanding, meditation is a mental technique used by a variety of people for a variety of purposes.  Certainly, meditation is used by those religions as a central precept, and is taught - but the difference is, I think, that meditation in my school is non-religious, and, while the direction is to "close your eyes, clear you mind, and get ready to learn", if I had any students whose personal religious and/or moral beliefs had a problem with that, I would modify as necessary to accommodate them - not tell them to find another school.

As I said, this is your choice, and I wish you luck with it - but you will continue to find people who have different opinions, and they are as welcome to express their opinions as you are to express your own.  You will garner more support and acceptance if you accept that, than if you strike out at people whose opinions are different from your own.

Shalom.


----------



## Ceicei

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> OK, rhat makes sense.      I'm not a Christian myself so I tend to ask rather stupid questions.  I appreciate your input a lot! :asian:



For those who genuinely seek answers, there are no stupid questions, whatever the topic.  I appreciate you asking.

- Ceicei


----------



## Sapper6

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Strange, I found his statement similiarly condescending, offensive, and counter-productive to martialtalks mission.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That you project onto me 'anti-christian rhetoric', I find similiarly offensive. I am not anti-Christian. I am not anti-any belief structure. I prefer clarity of thought and action.
> 
> I go to the doctor for health. I go to the mechanic to get my car serviced. I go to the market to buy food.
> 
> That some would expect to go to the Karate Studio for religious belief and practice is contradictory to the purpose of a Karate Studio, in my opinion.


 
he clearly stated, "*we are a private, christian based dojo*."  i doubt there will be any unsuspecting students here.  there's a pretty big difference between this and say, you getting an oil change and while you wait, being taught the book Revelations.  you know what you are getting before you even start.  the mere fact that he states he's a *private* school proves your flawed assumption of his impact on the "unsuspecting student".  he's free to accept students however he desires.  his mission is not monetarily driven.  all he did was make that more clear to understand.  how could you find that offensive?  you brought up the money issue with you, "if i choose to exercise commerce with you".  he clarified his intent for you.

i believe that he possesses clarity of thought and action, i just don't think you understand it.  attacking people for their intent and motivation is cowardly.  i'm certainly not attacking your right to criticize this man.  i'm criticizing the manner in which you are doing, and the place in which you do it.  

it's good to know that you are not on the martialtalk welcoming committee.


----------



## Ceicei

Kacey said:
			
		

> As I said, this is your choice, and I wish you luck with it - but you will continue to find people who have different opinions, and they are as welcome to express their opinions as you are to express your own. You will garner more support and acceptance if you accept that, than if you strike out at people whose opinions are different from your own.
> 
> Shalom.



There are groups of people who prefer to seek out those of like-mind.  If that is the setting they want, then Sacred Warrior is serving that niche and giving them what they want.  They are happier there.

Personally, I think there are more benefits with being in a diverse group.  Diversity teaches me tolerance better and allows me to see different viewpoints that otherwise would not be present (usually) in a group with similar views.  Diversity in my school is what makes me happy.

I am glad, though, that there are many different ways of teaching martial arts in just as many different settings.  At least there are choices available for students.

- Ceicei


----------



## bluemtn

Same here-  I prefer a diverse atmosphere.  The dojang I go to is Christian based, but is open to everyone.


----------



## michaeledward

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> he clearly stated, "*we are a private, christian based dojo*." i doubt there will be any unsuspecting students here. there's a pretty big difference between this and say, you getting an oil change and while you wait, being taught the book Revelations. you know what you are getting before you even start. the mere fact that he states he's a *private* school proves your flawed assumption of his impact on the "unsuspecting student". he's free to accept students however he desires. his mission is not monetarily driven. all he did was make that more clear to understand. how could you find that offensive? you brought up the money issue with you, "if i choose to exercise commerce with you". he clarified his intent for you.
> 
> i believe that he possesses clarity of thought and action, i just don't think you understand it. attacking people for their intent and motivation is cowardly. i'm certainly not attacking your right to criticize this man. i'm criticizing the manner in which you are doing, and the place in which you do it.
> 
> it's good to know that you are not on the martialtalk welcoming committee.


 
I offered no attack to his intent or motivation, or even his belief structure. I offered an opinion that I would not participate in a Karate Studio that shared focus on religious beliefs.

Sacred Warrior then used the phrase 'cheap shots about money'. Isn't that strange that I viewed that as an attack?

I made no statements about money. I used the phrase 'commerce'. I recognize that one definition of 'commerce' means an exchange of money, there is another equally valid definition for the word, which is: "*1* *:* social intercourse *:* interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments" (www.m-w.com)

Some would say the function of any business is to 'make money, now, and in the future'. But, even if you are private charitible foundation, a primary function will be to continue in existance. Placing limitations on who can attend is contrary to those functions. Now, maybe in Kentucky, excluding those who don't believe as you do will not limit participation into non-existance. But, it would limit me from attending.


----------



## Sapper6

michaeledward said:
			
		

> *I offered no attack to his intent or motivation, or even his belief structure*. I offered an opinion that I would not participate in a Karate Studio that shared focus on religious beliefs.
> 
> Sacred Warrior then used the phrase 'cheap shots about money'. Isn't that strange that I viewed that as an attack?
> 
> I made no statements about money. I used the phrase 'commerce'. I recognize that one definition of 'commerce' means an exchange of money, there is another equally valid definition for the word, which is: "*1* *:* social intercourse *:* interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments" (www.m-w.com)
> 
> Some would say the function of any business is to 'make money, now, and in the future'. But, even if you are private charitible foundation, a primary function will be to continue in existance. Placing limitations on who can attend is contrary to those functions. Now, maybe in Kentucky, excluding those who don't believe as you do will not limit participation into non-existance. But, it would limit me from attending.


 
ok michael.  whatever you say.  actually you said, "_Oh, Please. The Besieged Christians. As if they are an oppressed minority in a country that is more than 85% Christian. Yet spoken with arrogance of only Christians can live on purpose, or with purpose. 
_
he never said anything about being oppressed or besieged.  what he did say is that his school provides a common link to those students of the christian faith that desire to study the arts, and in relation to the number martial arts schools in operation, there are not alot of schools out there that offer this service.  somehow, you took that as saying christians are oppressed because of the lack of christian martial arts programs?  that's funny.

you also stated, _"I value what I pay for. If you offer a service for which no recompense is required, I will value it as if no recompense is required. Regardless of whether you think it is a commercial transaction or not, you are offering a good or service." _

not real sure what you mean by that.  does that mean just because he's not charging for it, it has no worth?  surely not.  i could teach crappy martial arts with excessive fees, but that doesn't mean my teaching necessarily worth more.  value doesn't really apply here.  the guy is offering a "good or service" to those who desire that specific teaching.  perhaps it means nothing to you.  it would mean a ton more to those it actually applied.

you accused him of being arrogant with his "living with purpose, on purpose" signature.  where did he state that ONLY christians could do this?  you accused him of saying that.  you read an awful lot into what people type, to benefit your own side of the argument.  you put words in his mouth that he clearly did not say.  why?

_And, your slight does nothing to support your premise that Christianity has everything to do with warriorship._

where's the disrespect?  the guy was met with aggression and responded appropriately.  warriorship to him probably has a different meaning to you.  it doesn't make it wrong.

you seem to think you are a victim here.  you find his post offensive because he advocates something you don't believe in.  what a shame.


----------



## michaeledward

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> ok michael. whatever you say. actually you said, "_Oh, Please. The Besieged Christians. As if they are an oppressed minority in a country that is more than 85% Christian. Yet spoken with arrogance of only Christians can live on purpose, or with purpose. _
> 
> he never said anything about being oppressed or besieged. what he did say is that his school provides a common link to those students of the christian faith that desire to study the arts, and in relation to the number martial arts schools in operation, there are not alot of schools out there that offer this service. somehow, you took that as saying christians are oppressed because of the lack of christian martial arts programs? that's funny.
> 
> you also stated, _"I value what I pay for. If you offer a service for which no recompense is required, I will value it as if no recompense is required. Regardless of whether you think it is a commercial transaction or not, you are offering a good or service." _
> 
> not real sure what you mean by that. does that mean just because he's not charging for it, it has no worth? surely not. i could teach crappy martial arts with excessive fees, but that doesn't mean my teaching necessarily worth more. value doesn't really apply here. the guy is offering a "good or service" to those who desire that specific teaching. perhaps it means nothing to you. it would mean a ton more to those it actually applied.
> 
> you accused him of being arrogant with his "living with purpose, on purpose" signature. where did he state that ONLY christians could do this? you accused him of saying that. you read an awful lot into what people type, to benefit your own side of the argument. you put words in his mouth that he clearly did not say. why?
> 
> _And, your slight does nothing to support your premise that Christianity has everything to do with warriorship._
> 
> where's the disrespect? the guy was met with aggression and responded appropriately. warriorship to him probably has a different meaning to you. it doesn't make it wrong.
> 
> you seem to think you are a victim here. you find his post offensive because he advocates something you don't believe in. what a shame.


 
Sapper6 .... 

Please go back and read the initial posts. My first post was not disrespectful, nor was it an attack. By picking up the discussion in the middle, you can parse it however you wish. I believe Sacred Warrior drew first blood (and I've quoted the references in which he does so).

I notice you aren't parsing this comment (which incidentally, was made *prior* to the first quote of mine, you list)



			
				Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> Christians however don't have that same opportunity, unless of course they are content with martial sports. For those who want to synthesize their discipleship with their martial training we're the answer.


 
Why don't Christians have the same opportunity? Please explain to me the sentiment? What can't Christians do in Kentucky that non-Christians can?


----------



## mrhnau

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Well, I am reminded of some verses in the Bible where Jesus told his disciples to sell their clothing and purchase swords.  (Luke 22:36).  Why else would he advise that, if not for self defense?
> 
> Even He knew that there are people out there who have intent to harm.
> 
> There are several verses that advocate defense in the scriptures (both Old and New Testaments), so I *do not believe* that Jesus Christ would be a pacifist.  He understood human nature too well.  There is a time for things to happen, and this also includes defense.
> 
> - Ceicei


Indeed Ceicei, hope you don't mind if I quote it a little bit, since alot of people here are not familiar with it


			
				Luke 22:35-38 said:
			
		

> Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
> 
> "Nothing," they answered.
> 
> He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.
> 
> 
> The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
> 
> 
> "That is enough," he replied.



However:


			
				Luke 22:49-51 said:
			
		

> When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?"
> And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.



That being said, what verses advocate self defense? I'd be curious to find out... especially the new testament.


----------



## michaeledward

Thank you, mrhnau. 

I thought the same thing upon seeing the quote. 

But, as you can perhaps observe, were I to ask this question, it might be mis-interpreted as an 'anti-Christian attack'. Something about 'the devil being able to quote the bible for his purposes' or such.


----------



## Jenna

mrhnau said:
			
		

> That being said, what verses advocate self defense? I'd be curious to find out... especially the new testament.


Hey MrH, 

Yeah you quoted it above
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."  
--Luke 22:36​This is where Jesus reveals to the disciples tribulation they will certainly face (after he is gone) and so he implores them to sell their coats to purchase a sword. The typical "sword" was more akin to a dagger or the sort of short sword that was part of the standard travellers "knapsack" and used as protection from both scavenging animals and muggers. But even so, surely here is one indication maybe that Jesus sanctioned self defence??

Matthew 26:52-54 is used to reinforce the non-resistance or anti-SD concepts in the bible because of how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest.... "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?" 

But Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place in other words at his side. He didn't say toss it out altogether. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was't Peter, don't fight or defend yourself but rather, Peter, this ain't the RIGHT TIME for the fight. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## terryl965

Why don't Christians have the same opportunity? Please explain to me the sentiment? What can't Christians do in Kentucky that non-Christians can?

Michaeledward I believe all people have the same opportunity in life as well as in the Dojang. I also believe as a Martial Artist we should respect each others views 100%, now that does not mean we have to agree, just respect them. LIfe is so funny and here is a story about religion for all to ponder.

A Southern Baptist family living in Texas only child meets a service man on leave from the war, went out a few times while he was down there and had a great time, a year later they where married by the justice of the peace. Two weeks later she finds out him to be Jewish and not a Southern Baptist, her family and friend was in shock by this and the young lady mother told her as long as she was in love with him that was the most important aspect of there marriage, well to make a long story short they live together side by side for 56 years until the man died, the woman had five childern, out of the five 1 is Jewish, 2 are catholics and the others are chrstians. The kickers is they are one big happy family, they can see and understand each other views on religion and have respect for each other. Just so everybody understands here that family is my own, today I'm still Jewish, my wife is catholic and my three son's just got done with thier stuff to be accepted into the catholic church we all attend. My family is whole because we all can accept each others views about religion and the take on it as well. The church accept me for who I'm and they even made me an honory Knight for all my work inside the church.
If it was one thing my parents tought us it is not about the religion itself, it is about the spiritaul journey for all that has there beliefs and hold them close to there hearts.

My only guess here is weather each of you can respect each other takes on this manner of a christian base dojang and see the biggest picture out there, the ability for people to come together and train in the Martial Arts and also be train in the spiritual Art as well, of there choosen.

Terry Lee Stoker:asian:


----------



## bluemtn

Thanks for sharing that, Terry.  I'd rep you, but I did in another thread!


----------



## terryl965

tkdgirl said:
			
		

> Thanks for sharing that, Terry. I'd rep you, but I did in another thread!


 
Thank you tkdgirl I was not looking for reps. just trying to get people to see, we all are brother of faith in one way or another. The path we lead will bring as all to the Kingdom of God. To stand next to him in true enlightment well after the bone turn to ashes.
Terry


----------



## mrhnau

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey MrH,
> 
> Yeah you quoted it above"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
> --Luke 22:36​This is where Jesus reveals to the disciples tribulation they will certainly face (after he is gone) and so he implores them to sell their coats to purchase a sword. The typical "sword" was more akin to a dagger or the sort of short sword that was part of the standard travellers "knapsack" and used as protection from both scavenging animals and muggers. But even so, surely here is one indication maybe that Jesus sanctioned self defence??
> 
> Matthew 26:52-54 is used to reinforce the non-resistance or anti-SD concepts in the bible because of how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest.... "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"
> 
> But Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place in other words at his side. He didn't say toss it out altogether. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was't Peter, don't fight or defend yourself but rather, Peter, this ain't the RIGHT TIME for the fight.
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



thanks Jenna 

Is there a time for violence? I believe so... personally I can't see Jesus hitting anyone, or killing anyone. I look at the history of the church, the number of martyrs for the faith, how they died violent deaths for the sake of God and their faith. Jesus "did not say a word in his defense", almost all of the apostles died violent deaths. In the New Testament, I don't see alot of Christians defending themselves. Was it happening and just not written in the Bible? Perhaps...

One of the only violent episodes in the early Church I can recall is the death of Ananias and Saphira (sp), but Peter did not directly kill them himself, rather by God. My memory might be dull though 

At what point should a christian defend themselves?


----------



## michaeledward

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Why don't Christians have the same opportunity? Please explain to me the sentiment? What can't Christians do in Kentucky that non-Christians can?
> 
> Michaeledward I believe all people have the same opportunity in life as well as in the Dojang. I also believe as a Martial Artist we should respect each others views 100%, now that does not mean we have to agree, just respect them. LIfe is so funny and here is a story about religion for all to ponder.
> 
> A Southern Baptist family living in Texas only child meets a service man on leave from the war, went out a few times while he was down there and had a great time, a year later they where married by the justice of the peace. Two weeks later she finds out him to be Jewish and not a Southern Baptist, her family and friend was in shock by this and the young lady mother told her as long as she was in love with him that was the most important aspect of there marriage, well to make a long story short they live together side by side for 56 years until the man died, the woman had five childern, out of the five 1 is Jewish, 2 are catholics and the others are chrstians. The kickers is they are one big happy family, they can see and understand each other views on religion and have respect for each other. Just so everybody understands here that family is my own, today I'm still Jewish, my wife is catholic and my three son's just got done with thier stuff to be accepted into the catholic church we all attend. My family is whole because we all can accept each others views about religion and the take on it as well. The church accept me for who I'm and they even made me an honory Knight for all my work inside the church.
> If it was one thing my parents tought us it is not about the religion itself, it is about the spiritaul journey for all that has there beliefs and hold them close to there hearts.
> 
> My only guess here is weather each of you can respect each other takes on this manner of a christian base dojang and see the biggest picture out there, the ability for people to come together and train in the Martial Arts and also be train in the spiritual Art as well, of there choosen.
> 
> Terry Lee Stoker:asian:


 
Terry, Sacred Warrior said that Christians in Kentucky do not have the same opportunities in Kentucky as non-Christians. 



			
				Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> And if one is not inclined toward our spirituality there are many schools out there to choose from. Christians however don't have that same opportunity, unless of course they are content with martial sports. For those who want to synthesize their discipleship with their martial training we're the answer.


 
He implied my statements were 'cheap shots about money'. And Sapper6 piled on, accusing me of anti-Christian bias.

I wonder why my name is called out specifically in your call for mutual respect, and theirs are not?


----------



## Sapper6

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Terry, Sacred Warrior said that Christians in Kentucky do not have the same opportunities in Kentucky as non-Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> He implied my statements were 'cheap shots about money'. And Sapper6 piled on, accusing me of anti-Christian bias.
> 
> I wonder why my name is called out specifically in your call for mutual respect, and theirs are not?


 
the opportunities he is most likely referring to are a christian dojo atmosphere.  they are few and far between.  perhaps he can clarify that.

and you are correct.  you are guilty of anti-christian bias.


----------



## terryl965

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Terry, Sacred Warrior said that Christians in Kentucky do not have the same opportunities in Kentucky as non-Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> He implied my statements were 'cheap shots about money'. And Sapper6 piled on, accusing me of anti-Christian bias.
> 
> I wonder why my name is called out specifically in your call for mutual respect, and theirs are not?


 
Michaeledwald it was not pointed to you directly, it is to all about mutual respect if you feel that way sorry, I just took a piece from one post to tag off of. It was not suppose to offend anybody and I really do not understand how anybody could be offended from a story about my family, I guess I could be.
At any rate I can see this is a dead issue from alot of so called Martial Artist, I wish I had a magic wand and could make everybody see the light at the end of the tunnel.

My deepest regrets that you see this as a personal attack on you or anybody else on this board.

So here goes as all of our Marttial Artist(I mean all of us in this thread) can we have mutual respect for each other views while we may dis-agree with each one opinion.
Thanks and Sorry to those I offended.
Terry Lee Stoker


----------



## mrhnau

Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> We're a private Christian based dojo that goes beyond mere punch-kick drills. We are very seerious about exploring warriorship and its implications in todays society with an emphasis on Biblical morals and ethics. Our training requires not only physical study, but spiritual study and action to support that study.
> 
> If you're interested and in the Northern Kentucky area contact: bushokaninpo@yahoo.com
> 
> Living _with_ Purpose, _on _Purpose,
> Jake



Hi Jake... Bringing this back to topic a little bit... I think its a cool alternative. I tried looking up your web page. I found one, but the "enter here" is not working. What exactly do you teach? I noticed "ninpo" in your email address, so I was a bit curious...


----------



## terryl965

Ok, I'm at fault for mentioning certain people names on this thread so here goes I apologies if I offended anybody.

So here is my call out to everybody involved in this thread we need to respect each others views about this very touchy subject, as we all our Martial Artist we know the value of respect towards ech other, even when we do not agree with some one elses opinion.

The last thing is the origional topics is about one of our members opening a christian base dojo, I hope the individual has great success in the endevour they are about to take part in.

Thank you all for the wonderful time on this subject and I hope we can see this person views and wish them well?
Terry


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

Ladies, Gentlemen, and the odd non-evolved Simian that may be reading:

While I am not a member of the faith indicated here, I'll add my 2 cents. Some people like to be around like-minded individuals. There are numerous faith oriented martial arts groups around the world. The great majority of them are positive influences on their members and their local communities.

If you do not wish to join, then don't. There is really no need to negatively point out your problems with them. The OP (original poster) is offering a service to a group who may otherwise not train. He is attempting to combine 2 great loves of his life (his faith and his training) and share it.  More power to him for that.

There is no need, nor productive contribution to this site in anyone going on a tear about how they disagree with him. This is not the study. This is an area to advertise a service, which the OP has done.

I suggest taking the "right/wrong" stuff to the appropriate area. I can't see any rules broken, or even nudged by the original OP. The only thing this threads decent into disapproval can do, is drive off the OP, and any like minded. I may not follow his faith, but this board, and many others would be a lonelier place with out their input.


----------



## Kreth

Christian or not... looks like someone who didn't get promoted fast enough for his taste and founded his own style... 

Edit: I'll stand by that statement, having just read the OP's profile and noting his rank of "9th dan, Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu"

:bs:


----------



## Ceicei

Jenna said:
			
		

> But Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place in other words at his side. He didn't say toss it out altogether. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was't Peter, don't fight or defend yourself but rather, Peter, this ain't the RIGHT TIME for the fight.
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



Thank you, Jenna.  You beat me to it.

Mrhnau, my point I wanted to make was what Jenna suggested.  It wasn't the time.  The soldiers wanted to arrest Jesus, they weren't threatening to kill him on the spot, so there is no cause at the moment for a swordfight.



			
				mrhnau said:
			
		

> Is there a time for violence? I believe so... personally I can't see Jesus hitting anyone, or killing anyone. I look at the history of the church, the number of martyrs for the faith, how they died violent deaths for the sake of God and their faith. Jesus "did not say a word in his defense", almost all of the apostles died violent deaths. In the New Testament, I don't see alot of Christians defending themselves. Was it happening and just not written in the Bible? Perhaps...
> 
> One of the only violent episodes in the early Church I can recall is the death of Ananias and Saphira (sp), but Peter did not directly kill them himself, rather by God. My memory might be dull though
> 
> At what point should a christian defend themselves?



Jesus could very well do so.  Some pointed to Jesus with the moneychangers at the temple and routing them out as proof that he certainly is capable of doing so.  That is probably the closest act of violence visible in the Bible done by Jesus without hurting others.  

At what point indeed?  I think it's when in true self-defense (of family, friends, and self) against physical attack.  Defense is not for money, not for claim of land (for conquest purpose), not for "honor", and not just because of "what is believed to be right" (considering that "being right" is subjective anyway).  The last two, people may argue whether they are of value for injury or bloodshed.  I am of the opinion that these are not.  

Anyway, I need not to encourage leading this thread off topic.  Basically, Sacred Warrior is running a dojo that serves a need for groups of people who want this--to learn martial arts among people who share the same views.  He made no secret of what he is doing and why.  It is possible his dojo is probably open to others who aren't of the same faith, if they are willing to train in that kind of environment.

- Ceicei


----------



## Jenna

mrhnau said:
			
		

> thanks Jenna
> 
> Is there a time for violence? I believe so... personally I can't see Jesus hitting anyone, or killing anyone. I look at the history of the church, the number of martyrs for the faith, how they died violent deaths for the sake of God and their faith. Jesus "did not say a word in his defense", almost all of the apostles died violent deaths. In the New Testament, I don't see alot of Christians defending themselves. Was it happening and just not written in the Bible? Perhaps...
> 
> One of the only violent episodes in the early Church I can recall is the death of Ananias and Saphira (sp), but Peter did not directly kill them himself, rather by God. My memory might be dull though
> 
> At what point should a christian defend themselves?


Hey MrH 

Is there a time for violence? Interesting question  I would have to say no. But I will qualify that and say for me violence and self defence DO NOT equate. I do not want to go off on a crusade for my martial art but I am happy that I can defend myself without violent intention. I am happy that when someone has the intent of harming me I can resolve the conflict with physical intervention as necessary but in such a way that neither he nor I are seriously hurt. Some say this in itself is violence I would argue that is not so because my intention is not to hurt but simply to resolve. I believe it is my right and my DUTY to defend myself and others who I may be able to help because to do nothing especially when someone else is being attacked or abused is evil by omission. If God wishes me dead from an attack naturally then so be it but I am not willingly servile at the behest of an attacker or an abuser. 

But what about turn the other cheek - that being the old mantra of the sceptics.... well even Jesus did not literally turn the other cheek when struck by one of the sanhedrin -- John 18:22,23, and I think the whole t.t.o.c. notion is open to interpretation and also folk are inclined not to be aware of the meaning of the slap to the right cheek in particular as it was in biblical times where it was an insult rather than our modern-day metaphor for a fight - a bit more akin to those duelling gentlemen of olde medieval times.....

Anyway, personally I try to walk my own little crooked path of non-resistance. If I am insulted I do try to offer no retaliation and if someone wishes to strike me I will do my best to blend with them and put them down safely. This does not always happen. I have been hurt and I have hurt others and so what none of us are claiming perfection. But this is just how I try to work it  So is there a need for violence? No. Self-defence and defence of others? Absolutely.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Sacred Warrior

When I first came to this board I thought it a place for martial artists of any ilk to share and do so respectfully. I see that for the most part this is not the case. I have had my faith attacked, my character, my school, my rank and original martial art, and petty enough even my signature. There is an oft quoted scripture about "casting pearls". I think I'll heed that quote and take my leave of this forum. To those who were kind and polite, thank you and I hope to see you at another forum maybe.

Living _with_ Purpose, _on_ Purpose,
Jake


----------



## mantis

Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> When I first came to this board I thought it a place for martial artists of any ilk to share and do so respectfully. I see that for the most part this is not the case. I have had my faith attacked, my character, my school and even my rank.



Yeah, I do not understand what happened to your thread.  I expected people to be supporting the dojo part of it not attacking the 'religious' part.

religion is where MAist get to practice their fighting skills on MT, that's for sure.  

I feel sorry that happened to you.

But hey, good luck on your dojo.


----------



## terryl965

I too wish to say soory, this is one of the best forum anywhere.
Please reconsider.
Terry


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

Well, all I can say is, I hope those folks who confused this for the study are happy. Congratulations. You've run another person off the site.  Who's next?

Oh, neg rep me all you want. I have rep to spare. :rofl:


----------



## Sapper6

wow.

man we sure know how to make someone feel welcome now don't we?

i'd like to say thanks to those who made supporting comments to this guy.  you saw that this guy was a new member posting in a new member thread and took it for what was worth.  thanks a million!

to the couple others that did nothing but throw stones, questioning his belief, his purpose, his rank, etc....real classy.  way to represent the forum.  you brought shame upon it with your jumping to conclusions, flawed assumptions, and poor arguments in defense of your own activity.

i hate to see you go sacred warrior.  for the most part, this really is a nice place with a load of information and resources.  as long as you don't say too much, i guess.  it would be a shame if people find out stuff about you.  i ask that you reconsider your decision to go.  perhaps just take a step back, deep breath, and stop in a little later.

have a nice one people.


----------



## Kreth

I'll stand by what I said. Dan ranks in the Bujinkan are not issued for separate schools. Period.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

Questioning his qualifications, ok. It is the debate over religion that I find offensive, regardless of the lone anonymous coward that neg-reped me's opinion. It was a school ad folks, not like he was here trolling for children, pushing a cult, etc.


----------



## Henderson

Mental note to self:   Never mention religion on Martial Talk.  It always turns ugly.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

Also, politics is another good thing to avoid. Not just here, but anywhere.  Both can get you cruicified.


----------



## terryl965

Lets not forget if you are married the wife is always right, I mean almost or never which ever it is to keep her happy. You can never be right no matter how hard you try.
Terry


----------



## michaeledward

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Questioning his qualifications, ok. It is the debate over religion that I find offensive, regardless of the lone anonymous coward that neg-reped me's opinion. It was a school ad folks, not like he was here trolling for children, pushing a cult, etc.


 
Edmund BlackAdder ... and all others ... 

I negatively repped Mr. BlackAdder for this post:



			
				Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Ladies, Gentlemen, and the odd non-evolved Simian that may be reading:
> 
> While I am not a member of the faith indicated here, I'll add my 2 cents. Some people like to be around like-minded individuals. There are numerous faith oriented martial arts groups around the world. The great majority of them are positive influences on their members and their local communities.
> 
> If you do not wish to join, then don't. There is really no need to negatively point out your problems with them. The OP (original poster) is offering a service to a group who may otherwise not train. He is attempting to combine 2 great loves of his life (his faith and his training) and share it. More power to him for that.
> 
> There is no need, nor productive contribution to this site in anyone going on a tear about how they disagree with him. This is not the study. This is an area to advertise a service, which the OP has done.
> 
> I suggest taking the "right/wrong" stuff to the appropriate area. I can't see any rules broken, or even nudged by the original OP. The only thing this threads decent into disapproval can do, is drive off the OP, and any like minded. I may not follow his faith, but this board, and many others would be a lonelier place with out their input.


 
It seemed rather like a lecture to me.  I didn't bother to sign it because, it really didn't seem worthy of signing. Further, as my reputation is disabled, it is my understanding that my red dot/green dot selection does not affect his juice, anyhow. 

And, I wonder to whom he was referring when he addressed some as a 'non-evolved simian'? If that is not an ad hominem attack, I don't know what is.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

A jest Mr. Edward, one that you missed.


----------



## Sacred Warrior

_"I'll stand by what I said. Dan ranks in the Bujinkan are not issued for separate schools. Period."_

I feel compelled to answer this one before I take my final leave. I have been studying the Bujinkan arts for over 23 years. Back when I first started training we did indeed receive ranking in TOGAKURE RYU. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine received his 9th dan in Togakure ryu, as did Hayes, Navon and a host of others who trained back when the Bujinkan first started in the U.S.

It was in the mid 80's that Hatsumi sensei decided to change that. It then became Ninpo Taijutsu and finally Budo Taijutsu. I merely maintain the original usage that my original rank was given in, though some of my rank certification says "Budo Taijutsu".

Now, back to the petty bashing of my religion, signature, character, etc.

Goodbye.

Living _with _Purpose, _on _Purpose,
Jake


----------



## Jenna

Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> _"I'll stand by what I said. Dan ranks in the Bujinkan are not issued for separate schools. Period."_
> 
> I feel compelled to answer this one before I take my final leave. I have been studying the Bujinkan arts for over 23 years. Back when I first started training we did indeed receive ranking in TOGAKURE RYU. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine received his 9th dan in Togakure ryu, as did Hayes, Navon and a host of others who trained back when the Bujinkan first started in the U.S.
> 
> It was in the mid 80's that Hatsumi sensei decided to change that. It then became Ninpo Taijutsu and finally Budo Taijutsu. I merely maintain the original usage that my original rank was given in, though some of my rank certification says "Budo Taijutsu".
> 
> Now, back to the petty bashing of my religion, signature, character, etc.
> 
> Goodbye.
> 
> Living _with _Purpose, _on _Purpose,
> Jake


 
To Jake even though you are probably gone...  this is really sad. Sad for two reasons first because of the vehemence of folk who like schoolkids will use any platform to jump on the anti-christian bandwagon every time it comes down their street throwing promises of kudos and peer credibility and secondly Jake because you do not feel it is worth sticking around here to discuss and defend the validity of your school.

Nonresistance is one thing. Some confrontations however we should NOT walk away from

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Kreth

Sacred Warrior said:
			
		

> I feel compelled to answer this one before I take my final leave. I have been studying the Bujinkan arts for over 23 years. Back when I first started training we did indeed receive ranking in TOGAKURE RYU. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine received his 9th dan in Togakure ryu, as did Hayes, Navon and a host of others who trained back when the Bujinkan first started in the U.S.
> 
> It was in the mid 80's that Hatsumi sensei decided to change that. It then became Ninpo Taijutsu and finally Budo Taijutsu. I merely maintain the original usage that my original rank was given in, though some of my rank certification says "Budo Taijutsu".


If this is the case, then I will apologize. The lack of detail in your bio, plus the use of Togakure Ryu as opposed to Bujinkan Budo/Ninpo Taijutsu, made the claim look very suspicious.


----------



## Carol

Jake, I hope you didn't take my questions as an attack.  They weren't intended as such.  I'm not always super warm and fuzzy when I ask questions but I sure wasn't trying to pick a fight...just honestly curious to hear your views.

Hope you do come back.  This actauly is not the kind of board where posters get followed from forum to forum, dogged with criticisms from past threads.  Bob doesn't allow it, neither do the mods...and I think a lot of fulks like me pay for a membership here because the board is pretty clean.  That's not to say everyone agrees....but the discussion usually stays on point.

Ther are arguments and debates and a bit of good natured chiding.   I think Kreth called me a witch on my first day here when he saw I was from Salem, Mass.  I got over it.  So did he, after I turned him in to a newt.


----------



## Kreth

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I think Kreth called me a witch on my first day here when he saw I was from Salem, Mass. I got over it. So did he, after I turned him in to a newt.


I got better... :uhyeah:


----------



## shesulsa

_*Moderator Note:  *_

*The following posts have been split from another thread for a Christian based dojo which listed in the Schools and Instructor's forum.

Posts 27 through 79

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Sr. Moderator*


----------

