# Not trying to start something but I am really not sure what to make of this



## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2012)

I saw this on another site and I have way to little time in training Wing Chun to judge this properly. I am not trying to start something I am just wondering what those with more experience in Wing Chun than I think about it.


WingTsun in action: GM Kernspecht in Hockenheim 2010


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## Vajramusti (Apr 9, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I saw this on another site and I have way to little time in training Wing Chun to judge this properly. I am not trying to start something I am just wondering what those with more experience in Wing Chun than I think about it.
> 
> 
> WingTsun in action: GM Kernspecht in Hockenheim 2010



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I have no idea.


joy chaudhuri


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 9, 2012)

Huh.  I'm not a Wing Chunner, but he seems to be missing some of the structure I'm used to seeing in Wing Chun practitioners.  His flow is interesting - it almost looks more like what I've seen of Systema than Wing Chun.


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## Eric_H (Apr 9, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I saw this on another site and I have way to little time in training Wing Chun to judge this properly. I am not trying to start something I am just wondering what those with more experience in Wing Chun than I think about it.
> 
> 
> WingTsun in action: GM Kernspecht in Hockenheim 2010




That clip only proves he's good at giving extremely compliant partners more energy than they give him.

I don't think what this clip shows has much, if any, combat value.

Structurally it violates center line, therefore it falls away from what WC is about. No true WC man would voluntarily give that up w/o a fight.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 10, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Huh.  I'm not a Wing Chunner, but he seems to be missing some of the structure I'm used to seeing in Wing Chun practitioners.  His flow is interesting - it almost looks more like what I've seen of Systema than Wing Chun.



This.

The whole flow of it looked like Systema to Me, only with alot more Open Hand Work.


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## shesulsa (Apr 10, 2012)

Question here: Systema is known for its lack of telegraphing, however, it has always been my understanding that as one matures in their art, they learn to flow with the movements so they are seamless and part of natural movement, hence telegraphing is reduced anyway.

Does it have to telegraph to be Wing Tsun? Are most martial artists under the impression that only Systema is known for seamless, casual movement?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Question here: Systema is known for its lack of telegraphing, however, it has always been my understanding that as one matures in their art, they learn to flow with the movements so they are seamless and part of natural movement, hence telegraphing is reduced anyway.
> 
> Does it have to telegraph to be Wing Tsun? Are most martial artists under the impression that only Systema is known for seamless, casual movement?




Nope, as far as I know Wing Chun does not telegraph nor does Taijiquan nor does Xingyiquan and Sanda does not either. But being the continual Woing Chun noob what the heck do I know. All I know is what he is doing does not look like Wing Chun to me.


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## Brian King (Apr 10, 2012)

related thread FWIW including martial talk folks that know of these folks
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?83711-Students-of-GM-Kernspecht

Regards
Brian King


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## almost a ghost (Apr 10, 2012)

I didn't see anything that I would call a solid demonstration of Wing Chun. Like Eric_H pointed out, the partners are overly compliant and eager to get tossed and smacked around.

Somethings that really stood out to me:
At the :22 mark he's showing counters to elbows his partner shouldn't even be attempting. Then again, I find with a lot of WT clips from Europe they seem to be very elbow happy.

At the 1:28 mark he's chi-sao'ing with students. He keeps on encroaching in on their space and at no time do I see an attempt from them to reclaim that necessary space by using foot work and get caught up chasing his hands, but at the same time they are overly compliant and seem like that just want to get smacked around.


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## Steve (Apr 10, 2012)

All I know is that this is not a guy I'd want to get into a slap fight with!


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 10, 2012)

> Are most martial artists under the impression that only Systema is known for seamless, casual movement?



Nope.  It's just the particular flavor of movement and the body dynamics in this video that look like Systema rather than Wing Chun to me.


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## WC_lun (Apr 10, 2012)

The lack of structure and self breaking of the centerline concept scream it is not a traditional system of Wing Chun.  Wing Chun does have flow, but not at the expense of its' other concepts.


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## mook jong man (Apr 10, 2012)

I don't have the foggiest idea about Systema , but I do know Wing Chun.
The main thing that stands out to me is the lack of what we call "The Optimum Angle" or "Ultimate Angle"
The arms will roughly be in this angle all the time except when striking , the angle will contract slightly to yield under pressure when the arms are relaxed , but by and large they will generally be in this fixed angle.
It is thought to be the best angle for both attack and defence.

He seems to have dispensed with that concept along with the centerline and also opted for techniques with maybe a bit more flash but are indirect , instead of using more basic techniques that are simple and will get the job done a lot quicker with better economy.

In short he has thrown out the rules because he has been training a long time , and against low level students he can get away with it.

He would run into big problems and have to adjust his game if he were up against somebody with a decent stance , good "Forward Force", somebody who adheres to centerline theory.
They only need a slight gap to get through and then it's all over , and some of those techniques he was using allowed the centerline to be undefended.

Just to clarify , there are no "Pre - Movements in Wing Chun , nothing is telegraphed , that is a major no no.
There are no preparation movements before any attack is launched , it is just launched.

One of the purposes of Chi Sau practice is to eliminate telegraphing by only having "Forward Force.
Most Wing Chun people will work long and hard to get rid of even the slightest drawing back of the arm prior to striking .
Similarly with kicking , many hours of leg raising exercises have to practiced in order to be able to kick from the stance in a relaxed fashion without any telegraphic movement from the upper body , namely the shoulders.


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## thepieisready (Apr 10, 2012)

If he is attempting Wing Chun he is doing it very poorly.  I'm not trying to be mean or insulting to him, but that is horrible wing chun if it is wing chun at all.  He violates centerline, he lets his elbows fly out willie-nillie, and he allows his movements to be off; some by quite a bit and some by just a few millimeters.  In wing chun, a few millimeters can and do determine the complete success or failure of a move.


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## yak sao (Apr 11, 2012)

On the surface I think anyone who trains any form of WC would have to agree that this does not look like WC. But isn't the goal of every MA to transcend technique?.....is this what he is doing? Is he abusing principles, or is he fully embodying those principles, having mastered the system? 
 I have no idea, I'm merely speculating. Ask me again in 40 years and I may have a better answer.


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## yak sao (Apr 11, 2012)

One thing I will comment on though....there comes a time in every man's life when it's time to say no to skinny jeans


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## Eric_H (Apr 11, 2012)

yak sao said:


> On the surface I think anyone who trains any form of WC would have to agree that this does not look like WC. But isn't the goal of every MA to transcend technique?.....is this what he is doing? Is he abusing principles, or is he fully embodying those principles, having mastered the system?
> I have no idea, I'm merely speculating. Ask me again in 40 years and I may have a better answer.



Centerline maintenance is not a technique.


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## WC_lun (Apr 11, 2012)

It is one thing to break a priciple, knowing why you are doing so and the risk you take.  It is quite another to do so while training with a less experienced student and/or while being filmed.  This guy made a claim that he is doing Wing Chun.  His non-adherence to the principles of Wing Chun make it clear that he is not working within that system in this instance.  This creates a huge issue.  While he claims to represent the teachings of Wing Chun, he is doing something else entirely.  If he had said that he is trained in Wing Chun, but in this instance he will be following the precepts of Systema, that would be completley acceptable.  As he did it, he was very disrespectful to all those people that actually do respresent the various systems of Wing Chun.


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## yak sao (Apr 11, 2012)

I have never met Kernspecht, but I have met and had the privelage to learn from his teacher on numerous occassions. My old si-fu and many of my si-soks are products of Kernspecht's  teaching, so I know without a doubt the man knows his stuff. His understanding of WT(WC) is head and shoulders above mine, enough so, that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to this video.
Like I said, it doesn't look like WT to me either, but is it because there comes a point when a tan sau no longer necessarily looks like a tan sau, it simply disperses?


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## WTchap (Apr 12, 2012)

I've also not met Mr Kernspecht, but I have heard many good things about his WT from WT people who are far better than I am. Certainly, if he came on this forum wink2: ), I am sure he would be able to explain how what he is doing follows the WT energy and fighting principles.

But... for me, this clip is very much what others have noted - it is very Systema influenced (indeed, there are other Kernspecht clips online that are even more so) and that to me moves his art away from WT. While the principles are more important than a technique alone, I still think WT should actually look like WT. 

I would also agree that there might be a place for this if you are teaching very high-level WT exponents - people who already have the full system and are very expert in it, and you are looking at ways of using the WT principles in _different_ ways. But this seminar clip has a real mix of students/grades, and I just can't see how teaching such drills and work can help someone who is not very advanced in the system.


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## yak sao (Apr 12, 2012)

I agree that it's probably not in the best interest to muddy the waters where lower level students are concerned. I think that is one of the reasons that the biu tze form was practiced behind closed doors, as it seems to break many of the rules laid out in the earlier two forms, and they didn't want students messing up their WC that they were taught in an effort to mimic their si-hings/sifu etc.

But as we were not present at these sessions , we don't know what he was demo'ing here. Was he going to extremes, showing that ultimately, you should just be relaxed and flow? For all we know, this was followed by, or preceeded by, a very technical demo.


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## wingerjim (Apr 12, 2012)

Certainly not traditional Wing Chun. His form was not based on centerline, I did not see any punches with the fist. His stance was not traditional. He seemed to strike with his elbows almost exclusively, whihc is not the Wing Chun approch.


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2012)

I have never had the priviledge to meet Mr. Kernspectht either. However, my original Chinese sifu was also Keith Kernspect's sifu, and my current instructor trained closely under GM Kernspecht, so I have heard much about him over the years. The man has been in WT for a very long time and certainly knows his stuff very well. But at the same time it's quite clear that he has taken his art in a personal, and somewhat "experimental" direction. I find it interesting, and somewhat different from the "Chinese" WT I was trained in. I am not qualified to say much more. 

On the other and, Fighterman _has_ trained with Mr. Kernspecht personally, and his brother is a high ranking instructor in Mr. Kernspecht's EWTO. If you want an informed opinion, I'd ask him first.


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## WC_lun (Apr 12, 2012)

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between technique and principles or concepts.  Techniques can be shared from one system to another and look a myriad of different ways...even within the same system.  However, principle and concept is the base of a system.  If you are not adhering to those principles and concepts, then you are not practicing that system.  It is fine to say when teaching, "I am breaking this precept of Wing Chun when doing this technique, but here is why."  It is completley different to not perform Wing Chun, and if the principle and concepts are not folllowed it is not Wing Chun, and claim to be performing Wing Chun.  That is misleading.

So now in the future someone that has been to one of these seminars breaks his own centerline or loses his structure will be taken advantage of.  In his mind his Wing Chun was just proven inferior, but in reality it was not Wing Chun.  So now Wing Chun gets a bad rap because of people who do not know what Wing Chun really is.  This is why you must be really careful when teaching to do what you say you are doing, and make note of exceptions when they come up.


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## WCman1976 (May 16, 2012)

It has been a long time since I posted, but I had to for this one!

In one of the previous replies, someone said it doesn't look like wing chun because he violates the centerline. While you would never PURPOSELY violate the centerline, my Sifu said to me that the entire point of the Biu Jee form was what to do if you lost center...so while we don't ever want to willingly violate it, you could technically argue that he is demonstrating Biu Jee recovery techniques. However, there are certain points I call into question. The biggest example of this would be his personal space. EVen though wing chun is a close-range style, there are times when this guy gets TOO close and his arms get jammed up. Luckily, he has some willing participants. Another thing: wing chun believes in the shortest distance between two points being a straight line, but he does way too much "around the world" stuff, where his hand comes looping around an opponent's block (which of course leaves HIM wide open).

That is all I see for now. Good to be back!


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## chinaboxer (May 17, 2012)

this is what happens when someone puts all their eggs into the "biu jee" basket. i have no idea why people think that the third form is the most advanced form of the three. it's completely opposite of the first form. there's a reason why it's called the "desperation form" or "emergency form", because well...it's what you have to rely on when your siu nim tau form sucks and your opponent has compromised your "structure".

my answer? keep developing the first form so that you never ever have to rely on the third form.


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## mook jong man (May 17, 2012)

I think it's mainly the Wong Shun Leung lineage that believe it to be an emergency form or desperation form .

In ours according to TST , and this is from stuff that he has written so the translation is not the best.
I quote.
The main idea of Bil Gee is to transmit the power , which is generated from rotation , to the palms and fingers.
It is also intended to use the "attraction force", originating from the whirling during rotation , together with the appropriate movement of the arms and legs to achieve the state of " directing at will any external force to the centre of a vortex".


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## WTchap (May 17, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> I think it's mainly the Wong Shun Leung lineage that believe it to be an emergency form or desperation form .
> 
> In ours according to TST , and this is from stuff that he has written so the translation is not the best.
> I quote. The main idea of Bil Gee is to transmit the power , which is generated from rotation , to the palms and fingers.
> It is also intended to use the "attraction force", originating from the whirling during rotation , together with the appropriate movement of the arms and legs to achieve the state of " directing at will any external force to the centre of a vortex".



This sounds similar to the WT way of thinking. I haven't heard anyone from Leung Ting's line think of Biu Tse as an 'emergency' or 'desperation' form. But to be sure, the BT form does look to issue power in a different way (compared to SNT and CK). 

So there are also different concepts and principles that go with this form too. I was chatting recently with a WT guy abroad and he was talking too of how BT attacks targets in a different way. In WT there is more of a whip-like motion to many of the attacks in the BT form (so using the _elastic force_ that Leung Ting talks about), and this whip-like method often means that force is issued throughout the forearm, culminating with the wrist and fingertips. This allows some of the strikes to cut through the opponent's bridge arms while on the way to the main target.




			
				chinaboxer said:
			
		

> keep developing the first form so that you never ever have to rely on the third form.



I'd agree that it's good to always try and develop/improve SNT, but in WT I'd disagree that this could help you avoid needing to use BT. For us, BT is a natural progression from CK - something that gives you different tools and ideas that build on what SNT and CK gave you.


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## geezer (May 17, 2012)

WTchap is right on the money. And regarding the videoclip... I'd recommend reserving judgement since there is no accompanying explanation. As I said, I've trained with LT many years back, and also  more recently with people who are quite close to GM Kernspecht. Based on my experience with those guys, it would be a _serious mistake_ to write them off as somehow not understanding WC/WT/VT.


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## WTchap (May 17, 2012)

Here's a nice, and fairly short, intro article on the Wing Tsun Biu Tze form, from Alex Richter in New York. 

http://www.wingchunillustrated.com/2012/01/27/biu-tze-the-wing-tsun-perspective/


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## WingChunIan (May 17, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> I think it's mainly the Wong Shun Leung lineage that believe it to be an emergency form or desperation form .
> 
> In ours according to TST , and this is from stuff that he has written so the translation is not the best.
> I quote.
> ...


Not just WSL mate both of Ip Man's sons also teach the same, although at the same time it also extends the power generation theories and teaches how to generate power with a straight arm (which can then be added to the power gen methods of SNT and CK). I'd love to hear more about TST's thoughts on BJ ( and CK and SNT etc if they are different)


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## WingChunIan (May 17, 2012)

that said I'm not sure what BJ has to do with the clip. Sometimes I think folks like to use the BJ label to explain anything they don't understand.


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## mook jong man (May 17, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> Not just WSL mate both of Ip Man's sons also teach the same, although at the same time it also extends the power generation theories and teaches how to generate power with a straight arm (which can then be added to the power gen methods of SNT and CK). I'd love to hear more about TST's thoughts on BJ ( and CK and SNT etc if they are different)



I'll just summarise it and give you the main bits , it's from old photocopied notes that someone gave me years ago from a lecture that TST gave.
As I said , the translation leaves a lot to be desired.

Siu Nim Tau- The primary function of Siu Nim Tau is to use the mind to control the moves so that they can form the steady structure of an arch.
It is also with this control over the mind that straight attacks can be launched with the strength of the whole body centering at the point of attack.

Chum Kiu - The forwarding step and the turning stance of Chum Kiu together with the moves of Siu Nim Tau , if maneuvering at the same time can create driving forces of at least two different directions.
For this reason it is called the two-way force.
The main function of the two-way force is to off balance the opponent.
When the opponent is toppling over , he is unable to maintain the move or force in the way he intends to.
At this critical moment , the opponent can be defeated easily.

A bit more on Bil Jee - Of the three sets of Wing Chun forms , Bil Jee is indeed the most powerful one.
Every move of Bil Jee consists of the functions of both defence and attack with tremendous power of destruction.
Hence Bil Jee contains the highest level of skill in Wing Chun.

Here he talks about the elbow moves in Bil Jee - In Bil Jee the elbow moves are repeated many times because they are important in the sense that the practice of them may enable the person, who is familiar with Chum Kiu's rotation on the horizontal plane with an axle, to rotate three dimensionally like a sphere having the centre of rotation at the centre point of the body.
As both elbows are rotated on a slant, and once getting used to it , one can at discretion, rotate the elbows to any direction at any angle.

Thats the main bits , but I'm sure stuff has been lost in the translation.


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## Siunimtao (May 18, 2012)

Looks like hes using Taigong nicely, thats where his force is coming from,


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