# clinch in a streetfight



## cfr (Oct 29, 2003)

Sorry if this has already been covered. It seems like we often read about "would you go to the ground in a streetfight". Everone has their reasons for and against. But what about getting in the clinch in a streetfight? Would you do it purposely? Do you see a big value in clinch training for street defense?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2003)

It beats repeated blows to the face.


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## Cthulhu (Oct 30, 2003)

I would not seek a clinch, but I would like to be able to respond appropriately if a clinch happened in a fight.

Cthulhu


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## J-kid (Oct 30, 2003)

Depends what type of clinch and what ablities/skills you posses from the clinch.

For instince if i have the MT clinch i could drop knees to the face.
Or if i have a collar tie clinch(wrestling) i would look for a take down and control there arms.

There are a few diffrent clinchs that could happen and you should make sure you are ready for any.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2003)

Definately use it!  Its one of the ranges of combat and you can take advantage of your close in strikes....knees, elbows, gouges, etc.  Like Jkid also said, if you can get the MT clinch, pounding them with knees is very effective.  

Considering I'd rather not stand and box with someone, trying for the clinch is something that I'd try!

Mike


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## Zepp (Oct 30, 2003)

It would depend on the size of my opponent compared to myself.  If the other guy is larger than you, and has some clue what he's doing, you could just be setting yourself up to be taken down.


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## cfr (Oct 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *It would depend on the size of my opponent compared to myself.  If the other guy is larger than you, and has some clue what he's doing, you could just be setting yourself up to be taken down. *



Could you please elaborate on this? I dont have much clinch experience so Im interested in opinions from both schools of thought.


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## Zepp (Oct 31, 2003)

I don't have a tremendous amount of experience clinching either, but here's what I know from intuition and a little bit of experience:

If you're in a clinch, your options for striking are limited.  You're basically able to hit weakly with your elbows and feet, and more strongly with your knees.  It's basically a grappling fight, with neither person in an advantaged position.  In this case, the stronger opponent has an advantage in controlling the weaker one.  If he has any kind of grappling skills, it will be much easier for the stronger person to gain an advantaged position, probably by performing some kind of take down on the weaker, smaller opponent.

If you think I'm wrong, please let me know how.


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## MJS (Oct 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *I don't have a tremendous amount of experience clinching either, but here's what I know from intuition and a little bit of experience:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Zepp (Oct 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *IMO, it all comes down to tech.  Sure size and strength will play a part, but what really matters is the tech.  Look at Rickson Gracie.  He's one of the best fighters in the family.  I would say his tech. is right up there!
> *



Very true.  So I guess we can agree that the answer on whether or not to clinch really depends on what you know how to do, and how well you can do it.


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## chaosomega (Oct 31, 2003)

I've been taught that the preferable places to be are in (or just outside) kicking range or right up close, clinching with knees & elbows (not to mention hooks, uppercuts & a little dirty boxing). You don't want to stand and trade with someone, that is where mistakes are made. If you think you're good enough though... go ahead!


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## pknox (Oct 31, 2003)

As was pointed out before, clinching is the range where you have access to almost all of your weapons, so it's not a bad place to be, per se.  Unless you are one heck of a striker, you will probably have to go into this range to end the conflict anyway.  One qualifier though, and it's a big one - in a "streetfight", you must _always_ assume that the opponent is armed.  If the guy has a knife, I personally would rather be where I could see it.  If you are in the clinch, you don't always have the greatest visibility of where your opponent's hands are - it is quite possible for someone to draw a blade, and you'd never see it coming.  If you get stuck through the back or sides of the ribs, you are in a world of trouble.


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## ryanhall (Nov 1, 2003)

> Would you do it purposely? Do you see a big value in clinch training for street defense?


It depends.  Yes.  

Most real fights start at close quarters, so a knowledge of the clinch is imperative.  If you can control the clinch, you can control the fight.  As far as weapons go, they are always a danger (especially up close), and you have to have a good tactile sense in order to keep track of the movement of the other guy.  Ideally, you want to jam the weapon as the assailant is trying to draw it--obviously doesn't always work.

It's a range that you should be familiar with, because, as pknox stated, you will probably end up there.  People taking a beating don't hang out in punching range, they disengage or try to grab you.  Since you probably won't get a KO right off the bat unless you hit just right, the clinch is a very common place to find yourself in.  If you'll notice, most fights that aren't ended in the first few blows end up in a standup wrestling match that is sometimes followed by one or both of the participants going to the ground.  

One thing to remember is that most people are very ignorant of the clinch.  In terms of layman's combat, punching range is the most comfortable (almost everybody can hit with their fists to a certain degree, and even if they don't do it well, they are still most comfortable there).  Landing knees, elbows, and headbutts can end a fight in short order, as can shredding.  Your most useful weapons are in the close quarters area, so make use of them.  



> While you wont be able to get as much power in the elbow as say a punch


Not sure I agree here.  When you elbow, you can torque your whole body into the shot, you are hitting with a much harder surface than you would be when you punch, your target is much less important (you're not going to break your elbow on somebody's cheekbone), and you will probably get a cleaner shot in (if you're in range to elbow, it's hard to 'block' them.



> It's basically a grappling fight, with neither person in an advantaged position.


Definitely incorrect.  There are definitely advantageous positions in the clinch.  A Thai neck tie is one, double underhooks is another.  The former allows you to strike with a lot of control, but the latter can allow for a takedown if the situation does not permit you to knee the hell out of whomever you're fighting.  Grabbing clothing can make a difference, but if you train in a jacket and jeans, you should have an understanding of how the situations changes--doesn't change much, as the positions of advantage are still the same.


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## MJS (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chaosomega _
> *I've been taught that the preferable places to be are in (or just outside) kicking range or right up close, clinching with knees & elbows (not to mention hooks, uppercuts & a little dirty boxing). You don't want to stand and trade with someone, that is where mistakes are made. If you think you're good enough though... go ahead!  *



My thoughts exactly!  I'm not the worlds greatest puncher, so as for myself, I prefer to clinch.

Mike


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## MJS (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ryanhall _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ryanhall (Nov 1, 2003)

Mike,
I misunderstood what you were saying.  We're on the same page now.  Still, despite the fact that you can't get all of your body in to a conventional elbow strike in the clinch, you can still get enough in to cause a knockout or at the least, set up a good followup.


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## MJS (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ryanhall _
> *Mike,
> I misunderstood what you were saying.  We're on the same page now.  Still, despite the fact that you can't get all of your body in to a conventional elbow strike in the clinch, you can still get enough in to cause a knockout or at the least, set up a good followup. *



Agreed!:asian: 

Mike


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## nonono90 (Nov 1, 2003)

My ground skills suck. So in a self defense situation I doubt I would try to take the fight to the ground. Even if I had better skills I would still be hesitant to do so. Since the majority of self defense situations that occur on the street are in a social setting often times the fight is not 1 on 1. It may begin that way but when straddling your opponent, pummeling him with shots to the head, choking, or puting him in an arm bar, you are impairing you ability to respond to other attacks. Not only is your mobility diminished, but you vision is limited. If the guys friend decides to attack a real danger exists of being caught off guard. One good kick to the head can easily end a fight. In my opinion if going to the ground in a fight where other people are around, I would try and execute the intended move then return to my feet. This way if the oppenent trys to get up kicks can be placed to vital areas, and then the ability to respond to other possible threats, his friends is maintained. 

What do you think?


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## loki09789 (Nov 1, 2003)

I agree about the ground fighting thing.  My idea is to distinguish between the submission joint control training and the joint destruction training.  In reality, as a civilian, I would probably be looking for joint destruction during ground fighting/grappling instead of the classic pain inducing "lever" of UFC fighting fame.

Clinching may happen whether you want it to or not, response will depend on what you are trained to do in close.  Some will punch, some will tie up and knee, others will look for the entry to grapple.  I think limb/joint destruction is the best way for me because the Kenpo/FMA background primarily focuses on mechanical disfunction as a goal.  Pain is a residual product of taking an opponents ability to function away.

If you leave a finger out there by itself, I will try and break it.  If it is an elbow or knee, I will try and break it.  These things will make it very hard for the bad guy to keep fighting me effectively.
Paul Martin


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## lvwhitebir (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nonono90 _
> *Since the majority of self defense situations that occur on the street are in a social setting often times the fight is not 1 on 1. It may begin that way but when straddling your opponent, pummeling him with shots to the head, choking, or puting him in an arm bar, you are impairing you ability to respond to other attacks. *



In the national crime statistics, for assaults from strangers, 70% had a single attacker.  It went down drastically to 12% for 2 attackers and 5% for three.

For assaults from non-strangers, 91% were from a single attacker, 4% for 2 attackers.

So, while multiple attacker scenarios do exist, they are far from the norm.



> _Originally posted by nonono90 _
> *What do you think? *



The situation you described is a fight and not a self-defense scenario.  I would say that if I were attacked, I would try to get away as quickly as possible.  I train on the ground to get a dominant position where I can minimize him as a threat and allow me to get away, not to just get an arm-bar or a choke.  There are very few arm bars or chokes that I would attempt in a real self-defense scenario because I might lose the dominant position if something goes wrong.

If it were a friend and this were a true fight, I would probably go to the ground and try to immobolize him, rather than mount and beat him to a bloody pulp.

WhiteBirch


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## arnisador (Dec 20, 2003)

BJJ Techniques for LEOs (includes the clinch):
http://www.defendu.com/10_bjj.htm


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 20, 2003)

clinching. figernails to the face, knees to any where, elbows to ribs, chin and ear lobes, head butts. Yep I'd use them all in a street fight


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lvwhitebir _
> *In the national crime statistics, for assaults from strangers, 70% had a single attacker.  It went down drastically to 12% for 2 attackers and 5% for three.
> 
> For assaults from non-strangers, 91% were from a single attacker, 4% for 2 attackers.
> ...



No disrespect about the percentages supplied.

No disrespect to police officers.

In my experince, a one on one fight turns into multiple on one in seconds, and then they run away, or the police only take down those that can be identified into the report. Usually the person who was involved in the one on one.

I have had and seen people who were not involved nor cared, yet they just waded into the fight and started pucnhing and kicking. Then they left when things started to calm down or turn real dangerous.

Now this does not mean you should not train against the clinch or any other situation, since I believe all is possible and will happen sooner or later.

:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by cfr _
> *Sorry if this has already been covered. It seems like we often read about "would you go to the ground in a streetfight". Everone has their reasons for and against. But what about getting in the clinch in a streetfight? Would you do it purposely? Do you see a big value in clinch training for street defense? *



I train heavily for the clinch because thats where so many people lose their fight. Not only that, its good practice for anti-grappling(ground). Working from the clinch enables me to work technique from differant approaches such as off balance, differant foot placement.

Also, there is a need to be able to still fight while falling and such. The fight shouldn't be over just because its in another range.

:asian:


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## Cruentus (Jan 26, 2004)

I want to have a level of awareness of my environment in a self defense situation, and the clinch isolates to my opponent, negating what is around me. 

And as to multiple opponents, I don't care what the stats are. Every serious circumstance I have been involved in involved multiple attackers. Every time someone has wanted to attack me, they get friends; and I don't even think I am a scary guy. Given my experience, I want to know what's going on around me rather then being isolated to my opponent.

Having said that, the clinch could happend, and I am prepared for it. However, I don't seek it.


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## pinkexperience (Jan 21, 2007)

In a streetfight i would do it in any situation especially if you have experience with the clinch and grappling. If the guy is much bigger than you he is less likely to exert more energy on you with his leverage. With the clinch you can get him with the knees and elbows, get double underhooks, take him down and put him in a lock or a choke. Going into a clinch would be my automatic response. Right when he throws in a hook (which most people do without fighting knowledge or technique) i'd block clinch, do some knees elbows, takedown. Plus head butts = ). The bigger the guy the more advantage he has with distance. Longer and stronger punches and kicks.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 22, 2007)

I love the clinch and clinch-range strikes (knees, elbows, head-butts, etc.)

One thing I really like about clinching is the head control.  If you have a good clinch, you can swing someone around pretty easily.  Takedowns are also great from this position.  One of my favorites is a knee to the groin or thigh to get them bent forward, then simply step back and slam their face into the deck (this works from behind as well...EPAK people, think "Back-breaker")


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## chris_&#3617;&#3623;&#3618;&#3652;&#3607;&#3618; (Jan 22, 2007)

i would use the clinch in a 1 on 1 fight if the other person was about the same size or smaller than me. being a muay thai man i would just throw the knees/elbows/headbutts. i have been taught techniques from other arts that involve the clinch (takedowns , wrestling clinches) as this is where i feel comfortable (clinch-striking being my best strength). in a 2 (or more) on 1 fight i wouldnt clinch but i would throw a couple of knees and release if i was grabbed


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## Odin (Jan 22, 2007)

I think sometimes people try to relate what they see in Muay thai fights and in the octagon is what happens in a streetfight think about it, a thai fighter has trained in a clinch and know the escapes he can even predict what move your likely to do by your body movement hence why clinches last so long in competitionyour average 'bob' on the street usual has no idea what a thai clinch is so a successful combination of moves should be easy to land!...plus if the clinch is done correctly your also protecting  yourself quite well..and anyone will tell you it takes a split second to pull a mans head down towards your on coming knee and then lights out!!!!

I've personally used a clinch in a streetfight so I know it works and is a very good move to use, and hell there's no ref in the street so knees to the groin are welcome!!!


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## charyuop (Jan 23, 2007)

Look at the end of this fight to see possibilities of close range OUCH!
As I learnt in Aikido size is important, but if you use your center properly you can overcome the difference of size...


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## matt.m (Jan 23, 2007)

This might sound silly, but it is important to take a note.  The thing is: Clinch if you are good at it.  Don't try if you are not.  Look, you will fight how you train.  If you train a lot of kicking you will kick a lot in your fight, if you do a lot of takedowns then guess what?  Same story.


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## pstarr (Jan 24, 2007)

Clinching can eat up valuable time, which, in a street fight, you don't have much of.  The bad guy's buddies probably won't stand around admiring your tush while you try to grapple...


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## Odin (Jan 24, 2007)

charyuop said:


> Look at the end of this fight to see possibilities of close range OUCH!
> As I learnt in Aikido size is important, but if you use your center properly you can overcome the difference of size...


 
Ouch i heard that snap, im not sure that was what the other guy was going for though.

Watch the Bas rutten self defence videos, he mentions using the clinch...and i dont know about you but if anyone knows about fighting its old Bas!

check it out lol!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 24, 2007)

While I probably would not seek out to clinch I definately train in it and to counter the clinch when appropriately.  In a one on one encounter the clinch can be extremely useful provided both people are unarmed.  It fit's nicely into that intermediate trapping/standing grappling area of combat.  The down side with the clinch is that once you are locked up and there are potentially more attackers you are unable to monitor what everyone else is doing as easily.  So train for it and be prepared to be in it (and use it to your advantage) but do not seek it out in a self defense situation.  That is how I appraoch the clinch.


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## Trent (Jan 24, 2007)

Clinches often happen whether the you wish them to or not.  I've seen it happen most often between to unskilled opponents, or two very skilled opponents, and as was mentioned in this thread, usually it was due to the fact that they were attempting to avoid some heavy blows and were looking to gain advantage without exposing themselves.  The clinches also occured when the fighters believed they were the only ones who were going to be in the fight at the moment, usually.

That said, I like clinch range because most folks are not comfortable there and I practice there quite a bit.  Once I'm in that range the "fight" is typically over very quickly.  In mulitples scenarios I use the opponent as a temporary obstacle or shield, and if that range is practiced a great deal of power can be generated and much be seen, but like anything else practice is necessary and good instruction to determine really what options are there during a clinch.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jan 25, 2007)

It would seem to me that you want to force a clinch as a Judoka or Jujutsuka in a fight. We are  trained to fight up close. Id' rather get his flank or back, but the clinch is better than kicking and punching range, to put the issue to bed, so to speak.


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## wayofhandandfoot (Feb 11, 2007)

If i'm fighting on the street with more than one attacker i would definetly not want a clinch. I would move so that as few people could reach me as possible, by cutting angles and making it difficult for them all to reach me at the same time. But if i get in a clinch i got for vital points on the body so i can concentrate on the next person if i'm fortunate enough to hit the right spot with right amount of pressure.


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## Odin (Mar 12, 2007)

wayofhandandfoot said:


> If i'm fighting on the street with more than one attacker i would definetly not want a clinch. I would move so that as few people could reach me as possible, by cutting angles and making it difficult for them all to reach me at the same time. But if i get in a clinch i got for vital points on the body so i can concentrate on the next person if i'm fortunate enough to hit the right spot with right amount of pressure.


 

If you were to clinch some one, surly you would moved the clinched guy in front of anyone else that is coming your way.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 12, 2007)

ryanhall said:


> It depends. Yes.
> 
> Most real fights start at close quarters, so a knowledge of the clinch is imperative. If you can control the clinch, you can control the fight. As far as weapons go, they are always a danger (especially up close)


 
One good reason not to grapple around with him for a long time.



> It's a range that you should be familiar with, because, as pknox stated, you will probably end up there. People taking a beating don't hang out in punching range, they disengage or try to grab you. Since you probably won't get a KO right off the bat unless you hit just right, the clinch is a very common place to find yourself in. If you'll notice, most fights that aren't ended in the first few blows end up in a standup wrestling match that is sometimes followed by one or both of the participants going to the ground.


 
Yes, this is my goal--for _him_. And the longer I grapple with him, the more time I give him to think of all the ways he can hurt me, too--he's in the same range to me that I am to him.



> One thing to remember is that most people are very ignorant of the clinch. In terms of layman's combat, punching range is the most comfortable....Landing knees, elbows, and headbutts can end a fight in short order, as can shredding. Your most useful weapons are in the close quarters area, so make use of them.


 
Hard to land these when you're in a tug-of-war with a strong guy, who is trying to unbalance you, trip you, choke, whatever, and may some have street or MA experience/training as well. Conversely, whatever I can do to him, he can do to me. My sense is, it's up for grabs (in my case, anyway).

Personally--and this is a _big_ qualifier, I know--I want to get out of a standup clinch ASAP by taking his balance. Using two hands, one pushes while the other pulls around and downward, so I land him at my heel. Then, I feel much better. :ultracool A variation is the pushing arm goes under his armpit/upper arm, and pushes upward while the other hand pulls around and down. If it's life-threatening due to hi size/strength, his friends, whatever, I'm going to go for a soft tissue target (throat, eyes) and take my chances with LEO later. But the throw is my preference--he's on the gorund while I'm standing, and then all kinds of options open up.

It was either zDom or matt.m who shared a Judo move similar to this recently (japanese name, can't remember it). Also, Tim Cartmell has a new DVD on this very thing--very well done (Shen Wu Academy of Martial Arts). It was reviewed here also not long ago.


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## Flatlander (Mar 12, 2007)

Odin said:


> If you were to clinch some one, surly you would moved the clinched guy in front of anyone else that is coming your way.


Though this might be the ideal, the ability to do so will largely depend upon the relative size and strength of the people clinching.  I, for example, would not count on my ability to move people around while clinching.  At 155, I'm not very well anchored.  I'm the kind of guy that should nail my shoes down in a stiff breeze.  So, I've developed into a more versatile and agile person, training to be mobile enough to find the advantageous position, rather than get tossed around.  However, this predisposes me to going to where the motion leads me, rather than dicatating where we go.


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## Nemesis (Apr 25, 2007)

One question: How long can you maintain a clinch in a streetfight? Won't any of the fighters loose their balance and make them both fall down?
We are not talking about a stand up ring fight, we are talking about a mean and dirty streetfight.


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2007)

Nemesis said:


> One question: How long can you maintain a clinch in a streetfight? Won't any of the fighters loose their balance and make them both fall down?
> We are not talking about a stand up ring fight, we are talking about a mean and dirty streetfight.


 
IMO, from the clinch, you need to keep working.  Balance can be lost not being in the clinch.  Again, its a tool, just like everything else.  Nobody says that we have to maintain that position for an extended period of time.  Clinch, work your in-fighting and get back out, if need be.  

Mike


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