# Martial Arts for Law Enforcement...



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 27, 2020)

I would love to start a conversation about M.A. for LEO's.  I'm a martial artist and LEO.  I teach Control Tactics and feel more officers NEED to train!  This is a free resource for LEO's or anyone interested in Control Tactics / Combatives / martial arts for COPS. What style/ system do you train?

ACD-Combatives, Control Tactics, & Self Defense.

Thanks and stay safe...


----------



## Steve (Jun 27, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> I would love to start a conversation about M.A. for LEO's.  I'm a martial artist and LEO.  I teach Control Tactics and feel more officers NEED to train!  This is a free resource for LEO's or anyone interested in Control Tactics / Combatives / martial arts for COPS. What style/ system do you train?
> 
> ACD-Combatives, Control Tactics, & Self Defense.
> 
> Thanks and stay safe...


I think part of the problem is LEO are a little too good at killing people.  Maybe cops would benefit more from some soft skills training.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2020)

Steve said:


> I think part of the problem is LEO are a little too good at killing people.  Maybe cops would benefit more from some soft skills training.



It is hard to get the balance right between being able to clamp a guy with a degree of safety and not going overboard. 

And it is hard to get right. 

A lot of killings seem to be a lot of little errors that lead to big errors. 

So say you go to a job on your own. Because that is more cost efficient. That is a small error.

So you get out and you put yourself somewhere a bit unsafe. Small error.

You mess up your instructions, or don't communicate as well as you could. Small error.

Then you get in to a fight that you didn't think would happen. Small error. 

You then do something dumb in that fight. Small error.

Then you have to dig your way out in a blind panic. Person dies. 

Now If some of those errors get fixed the likelihood of a guy getting killed reduces. 

So there was this cop in Australia who got saved by some tradies. So he misjudged the guy but was dug out of his situation by a couple of other guys. 

Sorry I am trying to explain this in a way that is not so disjointed and kind of failing here.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2020)

So this intervention by a couple of civilians is what turned a possible shooting in to a very civil arrest.

Tradies come to rescue of officer after man begins choking him | Daily Mail Online

Now if the cop had a few extra guys from the start. Same results.

It is these minor adjustment that change the outcomes.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 28, 2020)

Steve said:


> I think part of the problem is LEO are a little too good at killing people.  Maybe cops would benefit more from some soft skills training.


That was a very, very terrible thing to say.


----------



## Steve (Jun 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That was a very, very terrible thing to say.


Tell me about it! Poor cops are just being horribly victimized.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 28, 2020)

Steve said:


> Tell me about it! Poor cops are just being horribly victimized.


Do you have experience in law enforcement?


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

Well.  Mission accomplished.  Here is how I feel.  And yes i'm a COP (23 years).  COPS do need more Control Tactics time.  Most COPS only get 4-8 hours a year.  This is why I started my channel.  to encourage training.  feel free to follow the link.


----------



## CB Jones (Jun 28, 2020)

.


----------



## Buka (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts, welcome to Martial Talk.

Comments in this thread sadden me.

But at least it's put me in the right mood for the scattering of ashes into the sea, where I'm heading right now.

I'll try not to shoot anybody on my way down.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2020)

By the way I had a look at your vids. And they are surprisingly not garbage.

I wouldn't lateral drop a guy.






Not after the last time I did it and thought I killed him at least.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

drop bear said:


> By the way I had a look at your vids. And they are surprisingly not garbage.
> 
> I wouldn't lateral drop a guy.
> 
> ...


 I think a lot of times we don't factor the surface into the equation.  The mats make us think we can get the same results when done off the mat.  In reality hard surfaces like packed ground, concrete, and floor surfaces are brutal. I'm not an officer, but if I had to do a take down, I would probably target the legs and do a take down that way.  There are just more options available, people in general don't have good balance for countering any of the leg trip techniques.  But none of this stuff will be useful unless the officer trains it at least 3 times a week every week for the time that an officer is an active officer.  It has to be on going training type thing.

For example, There are a variety of leg trips that could have been used on this guy.  Before considering the one he used.  If the goal is to take the guy to a ground, then there are other ways to quickly and effectively do that, provided that those techniques were trained weekly.  This is especially true in this case because there was no resistance.  Define the goal, are you trying to just take them down, or are you trying to inflict additional damage on with the takedown.  In short certain takedowns for certain scenarios. Personally I would have sued for more than 700K, but when you look at the cost.  700K would have been well spent on a weekly training program for the year,  Considering it's going to take more than 700K just go through the legal battle.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

thanks... 

If I was king for a day, every cop would train weekly. I always seem to just end-up / go to the regular rear hip-bump from arm-drag.  It's the basic take-down at the beginning of this video.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

Your video is a classic example of a "Terry stop" (Terry v. Ohio 1968).  That is and investigatory contact.  The LEO did seem to use more force than necessary.  The lateral drop would be something I would use/reserve if I was fighting with some attempting to disarm me.  In-fact that is when I have used it.  See Case law Graham V. Conner.  This is how we are judged. 

*Graham v. Connor (1989)* - Law enforcement officers have a Constitutional right to use force.  In the U.S. Supreme court decision Graham v. Connor (1989), the court stated “our Fourth Amendment jurisprudence has long recognized that the right to make an arrest or investigatory stop necessarily carries with it the right to use some degree of physical coercion or threat thereof to effect it”.

The Court also stated that the use of force by an officer upon a “seized, free citizen” will be based on the standards of “objectively reasonable” under the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

The court stated that “based on a totality of circumstances the reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of the reasonable officer on the scene, rather than the 20/20 vision of hindsight and the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowances for the facts that police officers are often forced to make split second decisions in circumstances which are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving.”

This is what I teach LEO's/ what I would use in that situation.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

Please let me add, I enjoy the conversation with other martial artist.  Most Cops don't train :-(


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> If I was king for a day, every cop would train weekly.


In reality this is what is needed.  It's something that law enforcement decision makers have to understand and accept as a reality and then structure the system so that the week training fits in there. Maybe today's environment is an opportunity to push a change like that.  I guarantee politicians aren't thinking about it.  Pass it along to them so they implement training requirements and system changes.

If we look at anything that anyone is good at, we will find that they train weekly.  People who are good at tennis train weekly, people who are good at playing music practice weekly and so on.  Pick any activity and we'll find that weekly practice is what makes people better at something.  Imagine if soldiers only trained 8 hours a year.  No martial artist practitioner would ever say that only 8 hours a year is enough to be good at something.  If I were you, I would definitely be hitting up some politicians so that they can understand the reality of what it takes to be good with techniques used in policing.  "Weekly Training" and "on going training."  Sell it to them as a mutli-beneficial change.  You get better trained officers for less money, because there will be fewer law suits in regards to officers using excessive for.  It proves multiple options for officers so that they don't just rely on the one "destroy all" move.  It promotes community support by providing better trained officers.  It promote officer safety because now officers will actually be good at the takedowns meaning they are more efficient and effective when trying to take people down.  No more 5 officer pile on just to restrain one person.  It promotes and improves government leadership, because decisions are made at the top and all politicians want a big win.  Then I would wrap it up with.  We are were we are today because of the lack of quality training in the right areas.  It makes no sense to continue to do the things that have brought us to this point.  It is too costly on multiple levels.  

Man I would sell that thing big time.  I would even offer a 6 month and a 1 year pilot for a limited number of officers.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

I forgot to mention to sell the stress release issue that training provides.  Training actually releases built up stress and makes a healthier police officer mentally, emotionally, and physically.  That way police officers have a way to not take so much work stress home.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

I don't disagree with anything you say.  The issue is budget & manning.  Most dept. don't have the budget & time.  You could break it into two groups.  A training group actively training when the other group is working.this is how the military trains.  The issue, not enough cops.  No-one wants to be a cop or no money in the budget to hire.  Training = money/budget.

If I stepped outside my chain of command and talked with politicians, my career would be over. I only have 4 years to go before retirement.  Anyway, most politicians don't care.  they are the ones that approve the budget and are always cutting it, never adding to it. This has been covered in studies and studies are great academically but never go anywhere.  It is the taxpayer that needs to push,  Taxpayers = votes...


----------



## Brian King (Jun 28, 2020)

Many politicians and citizens theorize that it cheaper to pay for the occasional law suit than to pay for additional training and the occasional law suit. People who actually value the lives of their law enforcement officers and the citizens they serve place a higher dollar value on lives, while politicians just look at numbers and sound bytes. 

Welcome to the forum Hapki-Concepts

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

thanks...
you are right.  it is often cheaper to pay out of court than fight the case in court.  Most agencies, counties, city's, etc. have a magic number that they are willing to pay to keep the case out of court.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 28, 2020)

So... why don't cops train?  What are the things preventing or interfering with individual training?  Do some agencies discourage outside training, and if so, why might they?  What keeps an agency from having regular, on-going practice and training?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> The issue is budget & manning. Most dept. don't have the budget & time.


I'll see what I can do to create a program if you are willing to share some of the challenges that police officers have.  Like things you hate to deal with or things you are uncomfortable dealing with.  For example, things that police officer may not be the best team to handle.  Or things where the police may better serve as backup support.

I originally responded with a book long post but deleted it all.  I can't make any promises because I'm already stretched really thin.  But I have a website where something like this will fit within my Community Support Program.   If I were to sell police training, that's how I would sell it as.  I would sell it as a community support program for law enforcement.  I wouldn't want to sell it training on how to arrest someone.  People talk about bridging the gap between police and the community which to me is crazy.  I think that's the wrong way to think.  Policing should be a part of the community and not something that is done to the community.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

Thanks for the question.  I would refer you to post #8 (the video) & #18.  in this thread.  Also time.  Most cops are drained mentally after work and work strange hours. It's like the military of fire/EMS, it should come from the dept.  LE is strange.  We ask the world but the training after the academy & FTEP is low.  

I train my agency bi-yearly and an outside agency.  My Capt. authorized it or they would not get training.  my Capt, is cool like that. Many small dept. not get anything.  No money. I also give private lessons for one or to local LEO's on my own time (free) or they would not get it.  I started my channel to help them as a basic reference. I train MMA & BJJ on my own time but that is on my dollar not my dept.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Brian King said:


> Many politicians and citizens theorize that it cheaper to pay for the occasional law suit than to pay for additional training and the occasional law suit. People who actually value the lives of their law enforcement officers and the citizens they serve place a higher dollar value on lives, while politicians just look at numbers and sound bytes.


 Which is why now is the best time.  Where politicians can clearly see the cost of going with the "cheaper" occasional law suit.  Nothing is more expensive than repairing one's image. That much they understand loud and clearly without having numbers.  I used have to deal with city council members from time to get budgets approved.  I never had a budget rejected even when my supervisor weren't excited about it.  I know what makes them tick.  Most politicians want to know 2 things.  Is it going to boost their image or is it going to backfire on them.  Cost isn't as much of an issue so long as program works and you can make some numbers and pretty charts to show that it works.  

They like the sound of "I did this"  or "During my time, I approved of community program A.. which resulted in"


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> thanks...
> you are right.  it is often cheaper to pay out of court than fight the case in court.  Most agencies, counties, city's, etc. have a magic number that they are willing to pay to keep the case out of court.


Those days are gone.  The majority of citizens no longer accept that.  Citizens are realizing their rights. Sites like  Facebook, youtube, and phone cameras have changed that forever.  
As more people have cameras there will be more video of police misconduct.  Police department are losing the ability to keep things on the low by keeping it out of courts.    If I'm abused by a police officer and someone captures it on video, then I already know that not only can I get more than that "magic number" you speak of, I also know I can push for criminal charges against the officer so long as I didn't commit a crime.  I also know I can push my experience to the public and I can affect how the local citizens feel about their police department. 

Today's environment is hot.  NASCAR BANS THE confederate flag,  Mississippi voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag,  statues are being torn down.  More people than ever are accepting that the current law enforcement is broken and that the training needs to be changed.  Even police are speak up and letting others know about the system and what they see as wrong.  What ever protection that police departments had in the past are about to change.  Even Qualified Immunity is on the chopping block.  More video cameras recording more police abuses = major operational changes.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

jks9199 said:


> So... why don't cops train?  What are the things preventing or interfering with individual training?  Do some agencies discourage outside training, and if so, why might they?  What keeps an agency from having regular, on-going practice and training?


All good questions.  How many police departments are there in the U.S?   Each doing their own thing?  controlled by people of different theories on how things should work.  All of those questions that you brought up would have to be factored in.  If the police department's "hands are tied" by number counters then that has to be brought to light as well.  Just from working with city officials, I know how some will champion programs that give officials the biggest chance for the spotlight while other's get chopped up.  That's city management issue and it may be an issue that needs to be addressed as a working component of policing.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

I think you took my statement out of context.  The "Magic number" statement was not meant to be derogatory.  Just based on what I've seen in my 23 years on the job.  As for cameras, I've had a body camera for years.  It as helped me on MANY occasions when accused of something I didn't due.  "Abused by cops"? Like any line of work you will get some bad apples but I think your safe.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> Most cops are drained mentally after work


This would be a functional issue.  If police are that drained after work, then that's an issue that should be addressed as well.  Will they be hard days, yes. Everyone has difficult and crappy days. But everyone needs to the opportunity "to empty the bucket"  if this doesn't happen then things build up and performance suffers.  This brings us to the concept that may police shouldn't be handling every disturbance.  Maybe create a separate department that helps lighten the load so that police officers can be used in more urgent matters.  What can be done to reduce the drain? Are there calls that police answer and when they get on the scene think "why am I called for this crap?"  Instead of having officers do everything.  Start determining what officers should actually be dealing with.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

Love  the idea and some dept. have "special units" that work with EMS/social workers and handle cases such as "metal issues" etc.  I was also an EMT certified/trained officer for about 8 years and have extra training in that subject.  I let my certification expire because I was paying for yearly C.E. out of my own pocket.  The Dept. Loved that I was an EMT but didn't have the money to pay for it. The issue is still money.  Many cities/jurisdictions, etc. can't find the money for everything else.  It always goes back to time training and time working.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> I think you took my statement out of context.  The "Magic number" statement was not meant to be derogatory.  Just based on what I've seen in my 23 years on the job.  As for cameras, I've had a body camera for years.  It as helped me on MANY occasions when accused of something I didn't due.  "Abused by cops"? Like any line of work you will get some bad apples but I think your safe.


I didn't take it out of context.  I just don't like the "magic number" because I know what you are talking about.  It's that number that departments and organizations are willing to pay instead of properly addressing the issue.  Is the same thing that private businesses have.  It's an accounting solution.   Accounting solution rarely address and actual problem or why it happens.  Accounting solutions address the financial cost and determines what's the lows dollar cost.  The problems with that is that there are more than just financial costs. But accounting doesn't see it that way. So it was nothing you stated.  It's just something I know all to well.  I guess that's what I get for majoring in business, economics, and having to see a friend go through that "magic number."   People don't realize that there's more to the "magic number" than just the financial part of it.  There are things that both people have to agree to that are non-monetary and in many cases are exploitative.  All of them are not bad, in some cases a person just wants a monetary remedy to pay for injuries.  If that's what the person wants then fine.  However, if the organization convinced the person that's what they wanted or scared the person into taking it, then that's I get a strong dislike for that "magic number"

I'm not going to say I won't ever be abused, that's just not very self-defense of me.  But I'm not worried that everyday I'm going to be a target of a bad Cop.  One officer is fine, I don't sweat that much, just hate going to court for speeding tickets and paying the fine.  But I accept it if I'm in the wrong.  My biggest fear is when multiple police arrive because at that point crazy stuff happens even if the person is innocent of whatever the police think the person has done.  Like when the police showed up at my house and tried to look in, stating that there was an adult male who ran into the house after peeing on the side of a building at 1am in the morning.  That was my WTF moment.  That turned out well for me, They arrested the woman who made the claim for filing a false police report.  I was just happy that the good cops should up and that I had a witness that could vouch that I was in the house for the entire day.  I'm not worried about the good cops.  I know many of them.  Just like I don't worry about good people.  It's the bad ones that make me uncomfortable, especially those with authority.  I can't just punch a cop to defend myself.  Like in the video of the guy getting slammed.  I can't just do my martial arts stuff to get out of the hold.  I can't defend myself the way that I would normally do so, and that's what makes it a scary situation for me.   

I normally don't rub cops the wrong way but normally don't rub people the wrong way either.  But I always keep it in the back of my mind.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jun 28, 2020)

Martial arts and LEO's actually have a long history together.  Many Japanese and Okinawan karate experts have been in law enforcement.  From Sokon Matsumura, being a security agent for the Okinawan King in the mid 1800's, to the late Nagamine Shoshin, a high ranking police official and Grand Master of Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu karate.  Tak Kubota (whom I think is still alive at around 90 yrs) pioneered the use of the tonfa based tactical baton with the LAPD in the  late 1960's.  Many of the come-a-long and control techniques he taught I believe have been forgotten or discarded for being "too effective."  I doubt many LEO's today realize the full potential of this weapon, even though they may carry it every day.

By being proficient in MA, a LEO has many tools to choose from that can subdue an individual, without having to resort to brute force.  Many Japanese police officers are trained in Jiu-Jutsu, an art which encourages compliance.  Also, by having the skills and confidence in unarmed combat, one is less likely to resort to projectile weapons, as well as having to depend on multiple officers to jump in and swarm the suspect (not that these are bad things if needed, but better if not needed as often.)  Then, there is the mental and spiritual aspects of MA study that enhance one's ability to remain calm in stress situations and choose the proper tactical response.

I think there should definitely be ongoing MA training, but, I guess with all the classes in family counseling, race relations, gender tolerance, etc., there is not enough time to teach LEO's how to protect themselves and the public they serve.  The optics of such training would no doubt bring accusations of "storm trooper" tactics.  Politically, I think such MA training will never come.  Sad.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

I think we are on the same page.  Bad cops should be fired and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  No room in my business for that.  People need to feel safe. I also agree about the "magic Number".  If it was wrong, the city SHOULD PAY IN FULL.  If it is right, fight, it in court.  Like you, I hate that math is more important.

My dept. paid out to a person once because of something I did to defend myself.  it made me feel like I did something wrong.  I was helping arrest a guy with multiple warrants, drug dealer ("real drugs" not marijuana) driving a stolen car and had beat the hell out of his girl-friend (if I recall) and was known for having a gun.  he was generally a bad dude. said he was going to kill cops...

He released three big pit-bulls on me and I was forced to shoot one. No time for pepper-spray, no time for taser, my gun was already out because the bad-guy was known to have a gun  so in a split-second, I chose to safe my butt.  My camera got the whole thing and I was later cleared.  Dude still got prosecuted for his crimes. You don't know me so You don't know how much I love animals.  It bothered me to shoot a dog who was only doing what he was doing because some jerk trained him that way. 

I feel the tax-payers should expect the best from cops and politicians. As for stress, I agree everyone in today's world has it.  Cops are not special.  As a Vet & cop, I can only tell you it is different.  I do feel cops should not need to pay for there own training on personal time.  I do because martial arts is special to me. I pay for my own training and teach on my own time.  I do feel cops should get the training they need to do the job the agency/tax-payer expects of all public servants.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 28, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> I let my certification expire because I was paying for yearly C.E. out of my own pocket. The Dept. Loved that I was an EMT but didn't have the money to pay for it.


 There's grant money out there that the department can win so that your certification is covered as a community benefit.  I wouldn't even have put that under police operational budgets or in government budgets at all.  I would want money that the government politicians can't count.  There are many private grants that could support such certifications, but this is something that the city, county, or state grant writing should be seeking.   It may be one those things where the police needs their own grant writers.  

There's more money out there than you realize.  But it's not your job to know this, as this would be more of an administrative function that would determine what would be funded through a federal operational budget, and what would need to be funded through a Private grant.  This is where a lot of my frustrations come in.  Why do I know this and people responsible for funding the department don't know or don't care.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

Hi *isshinryuronin,*
You are TOTALLY right.  I like tell my trainees in FTEP that is 23 years i'm never tasered anyone.  I know it is because my Hapkido, MMA, & BJJ training gives me confidence to use "verbal judo" most of the time.  M.A. also teaches respect, love and humility. Everything a cop needs to police.  I started a a teen and it showed me to treat everyone with respect regardless of station. I can't tell you how many times I've avoided needing to use force because the offender knew my reputation for being fare and respectful. This is why I feel every cops should train. 

I know that many Police units and military units in Korea us Hapkido as a base for training.  I am also a fan of Koga-Jitsu (LAPD Robert Koga-diseased :-( ) in law enforcement.  I carry a Yawara/Koga-stick and have used it from time to time.  I show-case it in one of my videos.  Thanks for the input,


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 28, 2020)

*JowGaWolf *you are right about non-gov money.  In fact the gov wold likely mess it up. I have a BIG homeless issue in my patrol area.  IT IS SOUL SUCKING.  I can't tell you how much dog food and people grocery's I paid for out of pocket before discovering some local non-profits that are helpful.  I have also gotten help from a local volunteer group based on facebook.  I work in a rural patrol area that is next to a city that pushes the homeless into my area


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2020)

jks9199 said:


> So... why don't cops train?  What are the things preventing or interfering with individual training?  Do some agencies discourage outside training, and if so, why might they?  What keeps an agency from having regular, on-going practice and training?




Let me guess. A company will do everything in its power to have a professional work force and safe work environment unless it costs money or requires effort.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Those days are gone.  The majority of citizens no longer accept that.  Citizens are realizing their rights. Sites like  Facebook, youtube, and phone cameras have changed that forever.
> As more people have cameras there will be more video of police misconduct.  Police department are losing the ability to keep things on the low by keeping it out of courts.    If I'm abused by a police officer and someone captures it on video, then I already know that not only can I get more than that "magic number" you speak of, I also know I can push for criminal charges against the officer so long as I didn't commit a crime.  I also know I can push my experience to the public and I can affect how the local citizens feel about their police department.
> 
> Today's environment is hot.  NASCAR BANS THE confederate flag,  Mississippi voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag,  statues are being torn down.  More people than ever are accepting that the current law enforcement is broken and that the training needs to be changed.  Even police are speak up and letting others know about the system and what they see as wrong.  What ever protection that police departments had in the past are about to change.  Even Qualified Immunity is on the chopping block.  More video cameras recording more police abuses = major operational changes.


Do you agree that 99.995% of all LEO are good, hard working people trying their best to do their job?


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 29, 2020)

I can tell you most cops are "sheepdogs" (not wolves) looking to protect the public and sometimes that requires uncomfortable contacts/investigations that involve taxpayers/regular non-criminal people.   It can be difficult getting to the bottom of a call ("terry stop") when emotions are high and everyone on scene  is like, "I didn't do anything"! why are to stopping me"!  

Sometimes things happen that shouldn't happen based on a split-second decision that the cops needs to make. A cop is only as good as his/her training, experience, and the situation often is moving fast.  I can tell you statistically speaking (no emotions or CNN one-sided video) most cops get it right and do the right thing or as close to that as it can get.  Please see the supreme court case law graham v connor (1889) on how cops are judged.

I was just looking to start a conversation about L.E. training and the martial arts.  That being said, I know the world is charges right now and reform in law enforcement in needed.  I'm a trainer and FTO so I see things maybe a little different then some cops.  I know nothing should be done during an emotional state and america is emotional right now.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 29, 2020)

oops 1989...


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Do you agree that 99.995% of all LEO are good, hard working people trying their best to do their job?


Do I agree that "most" LEO are good, hard working people doing their best?  Sure I do.  I've known many personally... but I think it's more like 90% than 99.995%.  So, to answer your question directly, do I think it's 1 bad apple in every 20,000 cops?  Errr... no. I don't believe that.  I think it's more like 1 bad apple in every 10.

And that depends entirely on how you define "good" and "hard working" and "trying their best."  Because I find it hard to believe that even most of those "good" cops who are doing their best... I think they know who the "bad apples' are and don't do anything about it out of some twisted adherence to a misguided social contract.  I'll also say that it depends on the city or county, because we've seen in some areas that there are systemic problems and the number of bad apples is probably more like 20% or more.


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> I can tell you most cops are "sheepdogs" (not wolves) looking to protect the public and sometimes that requires uncomfortable contacts/investigations that involve taxpayers/regular non-criminal people.   It can be difficult getting to the bottom of a call ("terry stop") when emotions are high and everyone on scene  is like, "I didn't do anything"! why are to stopping me"!
> 
> Sometimes things happen that shouldn't happen based on a split-second decision that the cops needs to make. A cop is only as good as his/her training, experience, and the situation often is moving fast.  I can tell you statistically speaking (no emotions or CNN one-sided video) most cops get it right and do the right thing or as close to that as it can get.  Please see the supreme court case law graham v connor (1889) on how cops are judged.
> 
> I was just looking to start a conversation about L.E. training and the martial arts.  That being said, I know the world is charges right now and reform in law enforcement in needed.  I'm a trainer and FTO so I see things maybe a little different then some cops.  I know nothing should be done during an emotional state and america is emotional right now.


I question the need for most cops to carry guns.  Firefighters don't pack heat, nor are the EMTs, but they report to the same accident scenes as cops.  Social workers are carrying sidearms, and they work with people who are homeless, often addicted to drugs and/or suffering from mental illness.  Most of what cops do is show up after a crime has occurred and take a report.  They don't need to be armed to do that, IMO. 

All that said, in your opinion, what do you think of the 8 can't wait campaign?  Do you think the policies and training suggested by those guys would help?  Seems reasonable to me as a starting point.  

8 Can't Wait


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Those days are gone.  The majority of citizens no longer accept that.  Citizens are realizing their rights. Sites like  Facebook, youtube, and phone cameras have changed that forever.
> As more people have cameras there will be more video of police misconduct.  Police department are losing the ability to keep things on the low by keeping it out of courts.    If I'm abused by a police officer and someone captures it on video, then I already know that not only can I get more than that "magic number" you speak of, I also know I can push for criminal charges against the officer so long as I didn't commit a crime.  I also know I can push my experience to the public and I can affect how the local citizens feel about their police department.
> 
> Today's environment is hot.  NASCAR BANS THE confederate flag,  Mississippi voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag,  statues are being torn down.  More people than ever are accepting that the current law enforcement is broken and that the training needs to be changed.  Even police are speak up and letting others know about the system and what they see as wrong.  What ever protection that police departments had in the past are about to change.  Even Qualified Immunity is on the chopping block.  More video cameras recording more police abuses = major operational changes.


The really sad thing is that there is a huge trust deficit between the police and significant portion of the public.  The difference recently is that this trust deficit is growing significantly, expanding into demographics where cops have historically enjoyed a lot of support.  The result is that we see that supporting police is becoming a political rally point no more or less significant than wearing a mask.  What I mean is, if you are in X demographic, you probably don't support wearing a mask, think kneeling at a football game is disrespectful to the troops, and support the cops while waving your confederate flag.  That's going to be a huge problem as that trend grows, because this demographic seems to be a solid 38% of the country, and if only 38% of the country trusts the police, we are in big trouble. 

If the politicization continues, it will end up leading to a pipeline of "bad apples" choosing to become cops.  Look at what happened in the border patrol as a forecast for what will happen with the police, unless some significant reform is put in place to restore the public trust.

To be clear, the politicization is not being done largely BY cops.  Like the military, they are being politicized by other people.  But it is within the power of the police organizations to embrace reform and work to restore the trust in the institution.  If that doesn't happen, it will become more and more political and that's just bad for everyone.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 29, 2020)

well the campaign is not realistic. More training not more rules to regulate is needed.  as for ems and guns, I can't tell you how many times ems would not come to the scene until it was secured by the police.  to ask cops to work without guns is unrealistic.   The fix is MORE training.  Required weekly training.  Any martial artist should know hat i'm saying. here is an sample of what i'm talking about...


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> well the campaign is not realistic. More training not more rules to regulate is needed.  as for ems and guns, I can't tell you how many times ems would not come to the scene until it was secured by the police.  to ask cops to work without guns is unrealistic.   The fix is MORE training.  Required weekly training.  Any martial artist should know hat i'm saying. here is an sample of what i'm talking about...


Training isn't going to fix anything until you address the culture.  Maybe we just disagree, but it's a bit of a chicken/egg thing.  You can't fix a culture with training.  You have to excise the "bad apples" and ensure everyone who remains is on board with the new direction.  Then you will have some fertile ground for training.  

Regarding guns, we might just disagree there, too.  Which is fine.  We hear often about people who allege that in their entire careers, they never had to draw their weapons. And then you look at the actual stats regarding weapons use in police forces, where cops literally hit what they're aiming at about 30% of the time, and more like 10% when they're being fired upon... and you read about people being shot in the back by police officers who are scared.  

I do agree that training is an important part of the equation, but first, we need to set the stage and ensure everyone is on board.  Training is the last step, not the first.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 29, 2020)

One more example of what i'm saying...


----------



## Buka (Jun 29, 2020)

Always vigilant, always masked. And, yes, the banana is loaded.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2020)

Steve said:


> I question the need for most cops to carry guns.  Firefighters don't pack heat, nor are the EMTs, but they report to the same accident scenes as cops.  Social workers are carrying sidearms, and they work with people who are homeless, often addicted to drugs and/or suffering from mental illness.  Most of what cops do is show up after a crime has occurred and take a report.  They don't need to be armed to do that, IMO.
> 
> All that said, in your opinion, what do you think of the 8 can't wait campaign?  Do you think the policies and training suggested by those guys would help?  Seems reasonable to me as a starting point.
> 
> 8 Can't Wait



We have just allowed police to shoot moving vehicles. After some guys decided to plow them in to crowds.

But our cops carry guns and our shootings in general is pretty low.


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> well the campaign is not realistic. More training not more rules to regulate is needed.  as for ems and guns, I can't tell you how many times ems would not come to the scene until it was secured by the police.  to ask cops to work without guns is unrealistic.   The fix is MORE training.  Required weekly training.  Any martial artist should know hat i'm saying. here is an sample of what i'm talking about...


Should clarify, I think the campaign is realistic, but only if cops get on board and internally commit to endorsing the reforms.  Otherwise, you're right.  It will go no where.   Said another way, statistically, each one of the 8 recommendation is demonstrated to be effective.  They are shown to be realistic.  But as I said before, not if cops don't get with the program.  

Overall, there's an issue with the balance of power here.  A manager cannot be sexually harassed by a subordinate because there is an inherent power dynamic.  The manager holds the cards, not the employee.  In the same way, cops hold all the cards. This power dynamic, as with sexual harassment cases, creates an environment in which cops who are inclined to misbehave can do so with relative impunity because they control the situation AND they control the narrative.  

I'll say again, I agree that cops by and large need training, just not MA training.  Sure, MA training would be helpful... it's just won't hit the critical training need.  Soft sills can only really be developed over time with consistent coaching by people who are themselves adept at the skills.  Simply put, they can be improved, but only if that person is willing to learn and is in a culture where the behavior is expected by peers as well as management.  So, step one is get rid of anyone not on board. Step two is train and coach the folks who are left.


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2020)

drop bear said:


> We have just allowed police to shoot moving vehicles. After some guys decided to plow them in to crowds.
> 
> But our cops carry guns and our shootings in general is pretty low.


Sure.  I'm not creating a causal relationship between the two (other than the obvious one, where you can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun).  Why do you think there are fewer shootings by cops in Australia?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2020)

Steve said:


> Should clarify, I think the campaign is realistic, but only if cops get on board and internally commit to endorsing the reforms.  Otherwise, you're right.  It will go no where.   Said another way, statistically, each one of the 8 recommendation is demonstrated to be effective.  They are shown to be realistic.  But as I said before, not if cops don't get with the program.
> 
> Overall, there's an issue with the balance of power here.  A manager cannot be sexually harassed by a subordinate because there is an inherent power dynamic.  The manager holds the cards, not the employee.  In the same way, cops hold all the cards. This power dynamic, as with sexual harassment cases, creates an environment in which cops who are inclined to misbehave can do so with relative impunity because they control the situation AND they control the narrative.
> 
> I'll say again, I agree that cops by and large need training, just not MA training.  Sure, MA training would be helpful... it's just won't hit the critical training need.  Soft sills can only really be developed over time with consistent coaching by people who are themselves adept at the skills.  Simply put, they can be improved, but only if that person is willing to learn and is in a culture where the behavior is expected by peers as well as management.  So, step one is get rid of anyone not on board. Step two is train and coach the folks who are left.



Bear in mind you are talking to a training guy. And that is going to be his jam. 

It is a case of people do the things they can do. I wouldn't expect him to start having to pick apart union contract or inventing the new Tazer. 

Otherwise here is the one I stumbled across. It is a little more two sided I think.
Campaign Zero


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sure.  I'm not creating a causal relationship between the two (other than the obvious one, where you can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun).  Why do you think there are fewer shootings by cops in Australia?



Different system.

We had this issue and we had a royal comission look in to it.

Royal Commission into the New South Wales Police Service - Wikipedia

They did a great little dramatic miniseries on it called blue murder.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jun 29, 2020)

Steve said:


> I question the need for most cops to carry guns


News flash this morning - Two police officers shot.  No details yet, but here in the USA, this is not that rare.  And this is against armed officers.   If the LEO's don't carry guns, but the bad guys do, it doesn't take a genius to predict the slaughter that would occur.  Don't know where you're from Steve, but it must be nice to walk the streets with no fear of violence.  Most of us here live in a different reality, especially our LEO's that risk their lives with every contact made on the street.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2020)

@Hapki-Concepts

Welcome to the group.


dvcochran said:


> Do you agree that 99.995% of all LEO are good, hard working people trying their best to do their job?


I couldn't give you a percentage of good vs bad LEO.  I'm just not in that environment enough to determine that.  I've always known people in law enforcement.  I"m friends with more than one.  Some I met before they got into law enforcement other's I met during and or after their time in law enforcement.  My thought's are that good people tend to have similar qualities and bad people tend to have similar qualities.

I talked to a retired officer who talk about what he experienced while he was on the force and he stated there were more than just a few bad apples in his organization. My thoughts is that authority and power have a great potential to corrupt and I believe there are more people who are easy to corrupt than not.  The only question left is what type of corruption are certain people most likely to bend towards and to what degree.

If I took a look at a religious place of worship, would I say that 99.995?  Probably not,  If I can't say that about a church or other place of worship then  it would only be natural that I couldn't say  the same about LEO.   The one thing that I can probably say is there are more good people than bad. That includes organizations designed to serve the community.  While some go into the field for power.  Other's go into the field wanting to be able to protect those who can't protect others.  Good officers will often have friends who speak of their protective characteristic as being something that was present in them from early youth.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> I know nothing should be done during an emotional state and america is emotional right now.


That's why it's always good to be able to listen and hear people out.  It helps to drain a lot of that emotion first reaction.



isshinryuronin said:


> Most of us here live in a different reality, especially our LEO's that risk their lives with every contact made on the street.


 The US is a different animal because of our gun culture.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2020)

Steve said:


> The really sad thing is that there is a huge trust deficit between the police and significant portion of the public.


The bad cops screwed things up because of the wrong they did.  The good cops screwed it up because they remain silent, and management screwed it of  More are speaking out now which is good.  The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing..  Trust is a difficult thing to build and even harder to maintain.   In business an image takes years to build trust with consumers.  But it only take 1 day or a couple of bad actions to destroy all off that.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The bad cops screwed things up because of the wrong they did.  The good cops screwed it up because they remain silent, and management screwed it of  More are speaking out now which is good.  The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing..  Trust is a difficult thing to build and even harder to maintain.   In business an image takes years to build trust with consumers.  But it only take 1 day or a couple of bad actions to destroy all off that.


In your eyes they were already wrong. It is evident in your words that you have been conditioned to believe this from birth. 
It is this kind thinking and people who are being racist. I am so very sick of the entitled mentality.
God help this country when we have to fight for our liberty's again with people like you. We have no chance against a substantial enemy. 
You sir offend and disgust me.


----------



## Hapki-Concepts (Jun 29, 2020)

You're right I'm wrong.  I just wanted to talk M.A. sorry for releasing the kraken.  To keep the peace, i'll back out/quit the forum.  Peace...


----------



## CB Jones (Jun 29, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> You're right I'm wrong.  I just wanted to talk M.A. sorry for releasing the kraken.  To keep the peace, i'll back out/quit the forum.  Peace...



No reason to leave.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 29, 2020)

Hapki-Concepts said:


> You're right I'm wrong.  I just wanted to talk M.A. sorry for releasing the kraken.  To keep the peace, i'll back out/quit the forum.  Peace...


Nothing was directed at you. I have no ill will.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> In your eyes they were already wrong. It is evident in your words that you have been conditioned to believe this from birth.
> It is this kind thinking and people who are being racist. I am so very sick of the entitled mentality.
> God help this country when we have to fight for our liberty's again with people like you. We have no chance against a substantial enemy.
> You sir offend and disgust me.


I think you may have responded to the wrong post here.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> In your eyes they were already wrong. It is evident in your words that you have been conditioned to believe this from birth.
> It is this kind thinking and people who are being racist. I am so very sick of the entitled mentality.
> God help this country when we have to fight for our liberty's again with people like you. We have no chance against a substantial enemy.
> You sir offend and disgust me.


If you do a crime then you are wrong.
If you see a crime and you don't report it then you are wrong
If your government allows this type of behavior to thrive then they have screwed you.

So this is what offends you?  This is why I disgust you?  Sounds like a personal problem.   As far as my entitlement mentality.  Why don't you tell me what I think I'm entitled to?


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you do a crime then you are wrong.
> If you see a crime and you don't report it then you are wrong
> If your government allows this type of behavior to thrive then they have screwed you.
> 
> So this is what offends you?  This is why I disgust you?  Sounds like a personal problem.   As far as my entitlement mentality.  Why don't you tell me what I think I'm entitled to?



Your writings are dripping with a socialist mentality that expects someone else, particularly government to do Everything for you. This disgust me. The freedoms we have fought for is so we can freely do for ourselves, with minimal government intervention. 
Your first three sentences are common knowledge for most thinking people. However, in minds like yours, once you apply the word 'police' all police are guilty of all three all the time. This disgust me. 
By your very words, you make it evident that you fully believe the things some 'protesters' are doing, which are clearly illegal, are warranted and justified. This disgust me. 

See, I do not know you at all. But you have already conditioned me to not like you. This is what the so called activitism is doing enmasse. You may be able to trace your ancestry back to someone being a slave. So what? The wrong was corrected a Long time ago. What does this have to do with your life today? Or anyone you know?   

I live in middle TN. Redneck USA. A Lot of Black and Hispanic people live here and we all interact everyday. We have to and I don't see anyone keeping score. You might surprised to know that white is also a COLOR. I do not know or even see anyone who give two shxt's what color a person is. Color has zero to do with it. Do your job and treat others as you wish to be treated. A BIG thing I see the protesters NOT doing. 
It is wrong to try to make people feel bad for you because you are 'colored'. This disgust me. This is a distinct form of racism that is living large. Any and every infraction is turned and twisted to fit the agenda. 
When will people figure out that this is the mentality that has to change? This mentality that has the social climate frozen in the past.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you may have responded to the wrong post here.


Nope.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

@Steve, what in the world do you think is funny about any of this?
Dxxk move.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This would be a functional issue.  If police are that drained after work, then that's an issue that should be addressed as well.  Will they be hard days, yes. Everyone has difficult and crappy days. But everyone needs to the opportunity "to empty the bucket"  if this doesn't happen then things build up and performance suffers.  This brings us to the concept that may police shouldn't be handling every disturbance.  Maybe create a separate department that helps lighten the load so that police officers can be used in more urgent matters.  What can be done to reduce the drain? Are there calls that police answer and when they get on the scene think "why am I called for this crap?"  Instead of having officers do everything.  Start determining what officers should actually be dealing with.



The is a VERY long topic question of "appropriate use of police".  I have also been in this field 23 years, one of the studies I remember seeing recently in a class on "emotional survival" was that it takes the average officer 2 weeks for his/her body to "reset" back to what it should be (fight/flight drains, hyper-vigilance drains etc.)  So, exhaustion is a very real thing and unlike the military you don't get a "tour of duty" and then rotate out to de-stress.

Police do get called for things that we didn't get called for when I started in this field.  For example, parents not being able to control their 7 year old child and make him go to school.  Not kidding, we get these types of calls all the time because Johnny doesn't want to go to school.  This is one area where I agree a better community resource should be contacted.

Police should only be used in a criminal matter or a public safety matter (accidents etc.)


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Your writings are dripping with a socialist mentality that expects someone else, particularly government to do Everything for you.


  Gettysburg address "_that government of the people, by the people, *for the people*, shall not perish from the earth"
_
If I'm a socialist then so is Abraham Lincoln.  Government provides services for the people.  That's why government exists.  When call for emergency services it's your government that provides it,  When you drive on roads and highways, it's your government that builds and maintains them.  When you enjoy a park, it's the government that has provided it. When you want to be safe from foreign invaders it's the government who answers that call.  When kids want to go to schools and colleges, it's the government that provides that funding.  When want clean water to come into your house. It's the Government that provides it.  

When big corporations need assistance for when the country goes through economic crisis then it's the government that provides.  When you want safe Air travel, it's the government that makes those regulations.  When you want safe food and drugs, it's the government that makes those regulations so business do not take advantage of the citizens.  When farmer need assistance then it's the government that provides it.  When you want clean air, fair judicial systems, and land management.  The government works at it. You don't even get a vaccine unless the government says so.  It's clear you don't know the function of the government.  



dvcochran said:


> You may be able to trace your ancestry back to someone being a slave. So what? The wrong was corrected a Long time ago.


 Totally clueless, that stuff hasn't been corrected.  If that was the case the Confederate flags and statues would have come down long ago.  If that was the case we wouldn't have white people still dressing in black face and pictures of President Obama hanging from a noose.  How do you even correct the enslavement of a people?  Have you even thought of that?



dvcochran said:


> I do not know or even see anyone who give two shxt's what color a person is. Color has zero to do with it. Do your job and treat others as you wish to be treated.


 Well obviously you do.  Here you are bringing up color.  For something you say that doesn't matter you sure get upset about it.  You even stated that White is a COLOR as if you were left out of game on the playground.



dvcochran said:


> It is wrong to try to make people feel bad for you because you are 'colored'


 Maybe people feel bad about some the things that black people go through because, they see that it bad and not just.    Maybe the people who feel bad are good at heart and want everyone to be treated equally under the law.  Just maybe. People who feel bad about the hardships of other people, feel bad because they care about others.



dvcochran said:


> When will people figure out that this is the mentality that has to change? This mentality that has the social climate frozen in the past.


I ask the same question when I hear "Go back from where you come from"  or when I see white highschool kids dress in black face for the purpose of insulting black people. 

You have a lot of soul searching to do.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> I question the need for most cops to carry guns.  Firefighters don't pack heat, nor are the EMTs, but they report to the same accident scenes as cops.  Social workers are carrying sidearms, and they work with people who are homeless, often addicted to drugs and/or suffering from mental illness.  Most of what cops do is show up after a crime has occurred and take a report.  They don't need to be armed to do that, IMO.
> 
> All that said, in your opinion, what do you think of the 8 can't wait campaign?  Do you think the policies and training suggested by those guys would help?  Seems reasonable to me as a starting point.
> 
> 8 Can't Wait



This is incorrect information.  Fightfighters and EMT's literally will not go into many scenes until it is cleared by LEO's, traffic accidents are the exception and not the rule for those responses.

It depends on your department and jurisdiction.  There are some agencies that you respond to take a complaint after it has happened.  But, there are many that you are responding to things in progress.  There are some agencies that use a "TRU" telephone response unit that can take a call over the phone, for example, a car/deer accident which is very common in Michigan.  Some agencies use their "cadets" to take certain property crimes or serve papers.


----------



## Steve (Jun 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> @Steve, what in the world do you think is funny about any of this?
> Dxxk move.


As an FYI, intentionally posting in such a way as to get around the site profanity filters is against the rules.


punisher73 said:


> This is incorrect information.  Fightfighters and EMT's literally will not go into many scenes until it is cleared by LEO's, traffic accidents are the exception and not the rule for those responses.
> 
> It depends on your department and jurisdiction.  There are some agencies that you respond to take a complaint after it has happened.  But, there are many that you are responding to things in progress.  There are some agencies that use a "TRU" telephone response unit that can take a call over the phone, for example, a car/deer accident which is very common in Michigan.  Some agencies use their "cadets" to take certain property crimes or serve papers.


a firefighter won’t fight a fire without being cleared by LEO?  That seems odd.  EMTs won’t leave their ambulance unless cops first clear the house?   So, if I have a heart attack and my wife calls 911, the EMT will wait outside until the police get there with their guns and clear the house?  If that’s true, it’s worse than I thought.


----------



## Steve (Jun 30, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Police should only be used in a criminal matter


Amen.  I think we can do better where public safety (accidents, gas leaks, etc) is involved.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> For example, parents not being able to control their 7 year old child and make him go to school. Not kidding, we get these types of calls all the time because Johnny doesn't want to go to school.


See that's crazy to me.  Someone else needs to handle that like a Parenting support coach.  I wouldn't want to deal with the stress of dealing with criminals and assisting people who are need and to have all of that stress built up and never released.  Only to have to deal with a screaming kid.  That's nuts to me.  Police shouldn't be asked to do things like that. Kids are there own special kinds of stress and if you have to deal with that on top of stress back up.   yeah.. not good at all  That's asking too much for a police officer.  Too many job roles.  It's stuff like this makes me say that Management is wrong.  

When police officers get sent to the academy, what are they trained on.   If child development isn't part of their training then they don't need to be out there dealing with wild kids and other stuff like that.  Even with domestic disputes.  There should be A relationship counselor or someone that deals with those conflicts.  As long as the situation is just screaming and yelling, then send that person in. The only thing the Police should be doing is sitting the background watching to make sure things don't get dangerous.



punisher73 said:


> Police should only be used in a criminal matter or a public safety matter (accidents etc.)


Completely agree.  I even think accidents should be limited to certain types of accidents.  If duties can be spread out to different departments, then the Police can start getting some of that time back for training and for taking care of that mental and emotional trauma they go through.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> As an FYI, intentionally posting in such a way as to get around the site profanity filters is against the rules.
> a firefighter won’t fight a fire without being cleared by LEO?  That seems odd.  EMTs won’t leave their ambulance unless cops first clear the house?   So, if I have a heart attack and my wife calls 911, the EMT will wait outside until the police get there with their guns and clear the house?  If that’s true, it’s worse than I thought.


With the way things are being pushed and the mentality of the mainstream I would not be surprised or blame them at all.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Gettysburg address "_that government of the people, by the people, *for the people*, shall not perish from the earth"
> _
> If I'm a socialist then so is Abraham Lincoln.  Government provides services for the people.  That's why government exists.  When call for emergency services it's your government that provides it,  When you drive on roads and highways, it's your government that builds and maintains them.  When you enjoy a park, it's the government that has provided it. When you want to be safe from foreign invaders it's the government who answers that call.  When kids want to go to schools and colleges, it's the government that provides that funding.  When want clean water to come into your house. It's the Government that provides it.
> 
> ...



Nope. My conscious is clear. How foolish for you to not understand that government only works because hard working men and women give in this country forfeit 36% to 52% of their earnings to fund government. You confirmed just how truly clueless you are and how strong your entitled mentality goes. The level of your ignorance about how things operate is astounding. 
I don't know what world you live in but no one is paying the way for the kids I know to go to school. Maybe that is one of the free rides your race is getting? 
I cannot think of a President who hasn't had their picture hanging from a noose at some point so singling out any one President is just lame. 
You obviously chose to ignore it but I mentioned white to make the point that color is meaningless unless you have an agenda, which clearly you do. Mine is simply to speak out in a similar manner to the protester; about a wrong that need to be righted. I cannot fix your problems and you cannot fix mine, nor should we expect it from each other. Clean up your own house; it is not the governments job.
It is pointless to go into my families joy in giving of our time and finances to people in need. Clearly you would just twist it into something it is not. 

Best thing for you do to is block me it you do not want my opinions. I could keep going if you wish.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> How foolish for you to not understand that government only works because hard working men and women give in this country forfeit 36% to 52% of their earnings to fund government.


  That's what this means  "Gettysburg address "_that government of the people, by the people, *for the people*, shall not perish from the earth" what I posted earlier. 
_


dvcochran said:


> I don't know what world you live in but no one is paying the way for the kids I know to go to school.


This is in the US.  So I guess you don't live in the US.

*How Are Public Funds Diverted to Private Schools?*
Public resources have historically been diverted to private schools in myriad ways. From tax exemptions to grants, legislators have found creative ways to funnel taxpayer dollars into private schools. Over the last few years, the nation has seen the rise of vouchers and tax credits, and most recently, education savings accounts. These policies have primarily afflicted the South, though that has slowly been changing. New York State in 2015, for example, was considering a proposal to enact tax credit scholarships.
How Are Public Funds Diverted to Private Schools? - Southern Education Foundation

The Georgia GOAL Scholarship Program provides tuition scholarships to children who desire to attend private K-12 schools. When making application to a participating school for receipt of a GOAL Scholarship, families must provide proof of eligibility.
Eligibility Requirements



dvcochran said:


> Maybe that is one of the free rides your race is getting?


Nothing free about the ride.  People pay taxes then that


dvcochran said:


> I cannot fix your problems and you cannot fix mine, nor should we expect it from each other. Clean up your own house; it is not the governments job.



money goes to public school and private schools which service more than just my race.  For college and higher education most Black Americans pay out of pocket or through school loans.

You don't rack up debt by getting free rides
*1. 86.6% of black students borrow federal loans to attend four-year colleges, compared to 59.9% of white students.*
source:
9 startling facts that show just how hard the student-debt crisis is hurting Black Americans



dvcochran said:


> I cannot fix your problems and you cannot fix mine, nor should we expect it from each other. Clean up your own house; it is not the governments job.


 Nobody ask you to fix anything.  Why would I ask you to fix something that involves me or anyone else that I care about?  Yep we clean up our own house.  USA. sweep sweep.



dvcochran said:


> It is pointless to go into my families joy in giving of our time and finances to people in need. Clearly you would just twist it into something it is not.


That's up to you.  If you want to talk about the good your family does then do it.  You don't need my permission.  You didn't need my permission to spew your nonsense.  Using me as an excuse as to why you don't speak good about your family is WEAK. 



dvcochran said:


> Best thing for you do to is block me it you do not want my opinions


I have no intention to block you.  When I see something wrong. I speak out. I don't remain silent.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's what this means  "Gettysburg address "_that government of the people, by the people, *for the people*, shall not perish from the earth" what I posted earlier.
> _
> 
> This is in the US.  So I guess you don't live in the US.
> ...



Yeah, the funding you are talking about is only at the state level. Federal funds cannot be used in that manner. On average families pay more than double in tuition and such And still pay the same taxes everyone else does. Vouchers, when available equate to 8% to18% of just tuition cost. Vouchers are maxed at 10% of the student population and not equitable among schools. Some years a school may not have any. 
You are trying to paint a false primrose path I guess to fit your agenda. It just doesn't exist. I started to list several sites that counter much of what your site says but what it the point. You would just consider it misinformation.


Having to borrow money is the individuals problem. Earning it before hand or paying as you go is much more logical and sound. If you know the debt is coming and you don't want it then figure out ways to avoid it, like getting a job at 14 like me and my son both did. Why it this so hard to figure out? Our son was on full scholarship for 3 years and it still cost Him a substantial amount which he paid in full before graduating. I assure you if he can then anyone else can if they have the desire.

Statistically those numbers may be true but they are misleading. If a kid has to do it on his own And finishes school And fully pays the debt I say good on them. But they did it the hard way. 

You are asking. You are asking for government to do everything for you. Those are my tax dollars as well. You are not an excuse but an example of the entitled problem.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2020)

Thread locked pending staff review.


----------

