# The To-Shin Do Experience



## Satt (Oct 31, 2004)

Hello everyone. I am just wanting to hear from fellow To-Shin Do practitioners to hear how your experience has been so far. I appreciate any serious comments from fellow To-Shin Do practitioners, but please don't use this as an opportunity to "bash" it. I have seen enough of that on this website. Thanks. I am currently working on the "Earth" element in the study at home courses and I am really loving it!!! I look forward to your positive comments.


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## gmunoz (Oct 31, 2004)

Satt,

Good to see you here.  Welcome to Martialtalk.  Where do you train?


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## Satt (Oct 31, 2004)

I train at home for now. I am gonna try to take trips every once in a while to Ohio at the Hombu dojo and get some one on one training, but there is no dojo close to where I live you know. I live in Honolulu right now, but I am moving to Tennessee in about 6 months so I will be closer to the Ohio and N.C. dojos. It is good to actually meet someone else into the same stuff for once. God bless.

Satt


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## Enson (Nov 1, 2004)

satt,

good to see you here. keep posting. i have seen the toshindo stuff and i think it is superior to a lot of other arts out there. congrats on your training and welcome to martial talk!

peace
-mt moderator-


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## Satt (Nov 1, 2004)

Thanks for the encouragement. It is nice to meet other good people into martial arts.

Be blessed,
Satt


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## Limeydog (Nov 8, 2004)

Hey Satt,

I have just purchased the 12 DVD home study programme. First DVD was Kihon basics. Loved it reminded me of my first Budo Taijutsu instructor. I am very impressed with An Shu Hayes and his wife, so much so I am interested in opening a Toshindo school. My previous experience is in Kenpo/Muay Thai/Japanese Karate but am heavily into TSD now.

Good to talk to everyone
REgards
Patrick


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## Satt (Nov 8, 2004)

Hey Limeydog!!! Nice to see you here!!! I am also thinking of opening up a dojo in my hometown in Tennessee one day when I am good enough. Steven K. Hayes has REALLY inspired me!!! I pray you are also blessed in your endevors. Where are you wanting to open up a dojo??? I used to take Al Tracy Kempo and some Shootfighting a few years ago, but To-Shin Do is just the right one for me you know. Anyway, I look forward to chatting with you.


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## Limeydog (Nov 8, 2004)

Hi Satt,

I am thinking of opening a Toshindo school (If all goes well, and can get permission from An Shu Hayes) in Los Angeles (Burbank) aswell as change the curricullum of the Kenpo Karate schools I have in England.

Regards
Patrick


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Hello everyone. I am just wanting to hear from fellow To-Shin Do practitioners to hear how your experience has been so far. I appreciate any serious comments from fellow To-Shin Do practitioners, but please don't use this as an opportunity to "bash" it. I have seen enough of that on this website. Thanks. *I am currently working on the "Earth" element in the study at home courses a*nd I am really loving it!!! I look forward to your positive comments.



How can you "study at home"? By video tape?


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## Satt (Nov 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> How can you "study at home"? By video tape?


Go to www.skhquest.com and read about it. It will tell you all about Steven K. Hayes and his programs. I am in a hurry right at this moment so I can't talk too much about it. If you were trying to argue about it for some reason though, I am the wrong guy. I don't argue here. If just curious though, feel free to check out the site. It explains it all better than I can. Have a great day!!!


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## Enson (Nov 9, 2004)

i enjoy watching the toshindo stuff. since i love martial arts its fun to sit down and watch it like a movie. i have a few of hayes' videos... kenjutsu... bojutsu and others. good stuff... never know i might just join one day.

peace


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Go to www.skhquest.com and read about it. It will tell you all about Steven K. Hayes and his programs. I am in a hurry right at this moment so I can't talk too much about it. If you were trying to argue about it for some reason though, I am the wrong guy. I don't argue here. If just curious though, feel free to check out the site. It explains it all better than I can. Have a great day!!!



You mean this one?

_*12-DVD Black Belt Home Study Course
Our Flagship Course! 15-hour DVD program leading to 1st Degree Black Belt in To-Shin Do 21st Century Ninja Self-Protection... (more details) 
*_

Nothing takes the place of a real teacher.........


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## Enson (Nov 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You mean this one?
> 
> _*12-DVD Black Belt Home Study Course*_
> _*Our Flagship Course! 15-hour DVD program leading to 1st Degree Black Belt in To-Shin Do 21st Century Ninja Self-Protection... (more details) *_
> ...


if you are trying to be offensive your attempts will not be tolerated here. if this is your sincere opinion please make that known... also maybe give a reason why. 
-mt moderator-


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> if you are trying to be offensive your attempts will not be tolerated here. if this is your sincere opinion please make that known... also maybe give a reason why.
> -mt moderator-




Kinda sensitive aren't ya.....

I ask for clarification.....he sends me to a link with several "courses" on it it and I ask if the one I posted is the right one and then give my opinion.

No need to get all knotted up about it.......try and relax....take a deep breath or  2 or 3..... 

BTW, I got this notice in my email but you post has suddenly become quite different........

Hello RRouuselot,

Enson has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - To-Shin Do - in the American Ninjutsu forum of MartialTalk.Com.

_This thread is located at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18659&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
your attempts to "fraud bust" have no place here, or in martial talk. please keep your "offensive opinion" to yourself.

-mt moderator-
***************
_


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## gmunoz (Nov 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Kinda sensitive aren't ya.....
> 
> I ask for clarification.....he sends me to a link with several "courses" on it it and I ask if the one I posted is the right one and then give my opinion.
> 
> No need to get all knotted up about it.......try and relax....take a deep breath or 2 or 3.....


The way you gave your opinion could've been taken as offensive. Perhaps you could more adequately state your opinions.

BTW, is this you Sojobow? I knew you couldn't stay away! Welcome back buddy!%-}


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## Enson (Nov 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Kinda sensitive aren't ya.....
> 
> I ask for clarification.....he sends me to a link with several "courses" on it it and I ask if the one I posted is the right one and then give my opinion.
> 
> ...


your question was vague at best so you got a vague answer. i don't see where you asked for clarification.
-mt moderator-


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> your question was vague at best so you got a vague answer. i don't see where you asked for clarification.
> -mt moderator-




Not really.

Here is what I asked:

How can you "study at home"? *By video tape? *(notice the question asking for clarification...)

He mentioned he studied at home.....so that leaves very few options.
1) His teacher makes house calls
2) He has trained long enough and trains by himself at home
3) By video or book


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## Enson (Nov 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Not really.
> 
> Here is what I asked:
> 
> ...


thanks for clarifying.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> The way you gave your opinion could've been taken as offensive. Perhaps you could more adequately state your opinions.
> 
> 1)BTW, is this you Sojobow? I knew you couldn't stay away! Welcome back buddy!%-}






1) Uh :idunno: 

Thanks for the negative "ding" by the way:

_You actually expect us to believe that? gmunoz_


At least you had the stones to sign it. I can respect that.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Go to www.skhquest.com and read about it. It will tell you all about Steven K. Hayes and his programs. I am in a hurry right at this moment so I can't talk too much about it. If you were trying to argue about it for some reason though, I am the wrong guy. I don't argue here. If just curious though, feel free to check out the site. It explains it all better than I can. Have a great day!!!




Just wondering since you train at home who do you train with there? I mean is there anybody that you work out with? If so, are they a beginner as well? 
It just seems a little hard to practice a combative art if there is nobody to "combat" against.......
Also, why don't you go to one of the ninja schools in your area, or aren't there any?


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## Satt (Nov 9, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You mean this one?
> 
> _*12-DVD Black Belt Home Study Course*_
> _*Our Flagship Course! 15-hour DVD program leading to 1st Degree Black Belt in To-Shin Do 21st Century Ninja Self-Protection... (more details) *_
> ...


Wow. A lot went down while I was at work. Anyway, yes friend, this is the course I am currently studying. I intend to study them all over time. I have a training partner who is also a beginner. I am going to start attending the Hombu Dojo in Dayton Ohio next year when I move back home. Currently I am stationed in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii and there are no To-Shin Do Dojos here. Actually, you can't get your black belt by video in To-Shin Do. You can practice what is taught in the videos and travel back and forth occationaly to the main dojo to test for it and get personal instuction. You can test for lower belts by video though. Whether or not I ever test for anything I really enjoy the videos. I have taken Al Tracy Kenpo, Shotokan, Shootfighting, and until I started these courses, I didn't feel as connected as I do now. It is good for me personally. I agree with you as far as saying it is good to have an instuctor. I look forward to having one next year, but for now I use my available resources. I hope this answered your questions about what I do. I will not argue with you about whether or not To-Shin Do is valid or not. I deeply repect An-Shu Hayes and I don't believe in arguing about his ways of teaching. May your paths be equally fullfilling.


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2004)

> why don't you go to one of the ninja schools


This gets to me. At least you didnt say "little" ninja schools.



> It just seems a little hard to practice a combative art if there is nobody to "combat" against.......


Toshindo, like many martial arts, is a way. Do (way) means that it wont necessarily make you a better fighter, teacher present or not.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 9, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> This gets to me. At least you didnt say "little" ninja schools.
> 
> Toshindo, like many martial arts, is a way. Do (way) means that it wont necessarily make you a better fighter, teacher present or not.




Really? Why? 
Sorry to say but with the exception of Don Roley (who is a personal friend of mine here in Tokyo) I find most of the people that do Ninjutsu to be overly sensitive when asked about their art or how they trained.

However, speaking of little ninja this site is pretty kool:

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/content/ninjai/


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## Limeydog (Nov 9, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

I have trained in the martial arts for over 25 years attaining multistyle black belts along the way, plus hold a European Kickboxing Title. I think home study courses are a means to an end. The begining of a journey so to speak not the destination. Sadly however there are several great teachers out there and several not so great. I bleieve An Shu Stephen Hayes is one of those greats. An Shu Hayes writes in response to this very question.

"Wouldn't it be better to study martial arts at a real school? 
Would it be better to study in person at a mediocre school, or long-distance  at an excellent school? Many students choose our Home Study programs because they are disappointed with local martial arts schools. Many found weak curriculums instead of inspiring courses, odd stylized moves instead of realistic combat, "home-made" patchworks instead of authentic historical traditions, and quirky or egotistical instructors instead of inspiring teachers of reassuring dignity and elevated character. What if you cannot find anything close to what we offer? SKH Quest Long Distance Learning programs are your best course of action." 

I have visited several "Ninja" schools in my area and was not overly impressed. I think as long as the person is honest from day one regarding their certification, the student can choose when or where they wish to train. (Please don't take this as a negative remark, it was not meant as one.)

I am sure that if any teacher including An Shu Hayes feels the student is not ready then they are not allowed to move onto the next belt. But then there is the age old question: "What is a black belt anyways?"

Regards to all
Patrick


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> The way you gave your opinion could've been taken as offensive. Perhaps you could more adequately state your opinions.
> 
> BTW, is this you Sojobow? I knew you couldn't stay away! Welcome back buddy!%-}


 You're new here aren't you kid?


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## Enson (Nov 12, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> You're new here aren't you kid?


i think gmunoz ment that with sarcasim.
:idunno: 

peace


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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i think gmunoz ment that with sarcasim.
> :idunno:
> 
> peace


 Hey, who's the Psi Cop here? Hmmm?


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## Limeydog (Nov 12, 2004)

Hi Bester,
Welcome to Martial talk. From your posts I take it you are interested in learning some form of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu? I can understand asking questions as you want to make sure you are training with someone of good standing, why waste years training to find that your teacher isn't all they say they are.LOL.

I think you'll find training with An Shu Stephen Hayes/Toshindo a safe bet. I have trained in the martial arts for a while and all the people I have spoken to regarding An Shu Hayes and Toshindo have given high praises. But at the end of the day it all boils down to how well does the teacher move and express their ideas...

Good luck on your search

Regards
Patrick

PS. Welcome once more to martial talk


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## RRouuselot (Nov 13, 2004)

Limeydog said:
			
		

> ....... But at the end of the day it all boils down to how well does the teacher move and express their ideas...




Just an addition to that..How well can you understand and then apply what is being taught? My late sword teacher Mr. Sugino was very skilled; I could see and understand his actions but could not reproduce them myself.


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## Limeydog (Nov 13, 2004)

I Believe and I think I may have mentioned this before that the HSC is the begining not the end of training. To some who have no school in their area HSC is the only way. However once one has attained rank they should find ways to actually train at the Hombu/Head Dojo either through private lessons or seminars/special events...

For example I have started the Toshindo home study programme, so have a few members on this forum, you will find us at the next Toshindo camp in Dayton Ohio, Sept 10-11 2005 (Jason, Gabriel and Myself). I am sure we will get extra feed back from our "Home" training there. Myself personally hope to open a Quest center in my home town in the near future. I also think that there is a set standard for rank on a HSC (of course this depends on the moral structure of the school and instructor). I am sure that there are people who will try to take advantage of "Quick Rank", however in the Toshindo HSC you can only grade every 6-9 months (Depending on experience of course) and then only upto Brown Belt. Your Black Belt MUST be in person.

I get nervous when I hear of people getting black belts in one year, rather than 4, 5 or 8 years. But then black belt is the start of training not the be all and end all. I believe that An Shu Stephen Hayes and his Toshindo school has high standard and any rank is not just "That easy to get".

Just my 10 cents worth

Patrick


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## Bester (Nov 13, 2004)

For those of us who are a little slow (or just too tired to read back through alot) would you clarify how this works?

You watch the videos, practice with a partner (who may or may not be experienced).
You videotape yourself doing a test and send it in for grading, however blackbelt testing must be done in person.

Am I understanding this right?


Obviously training in person is the best way, however I can see the validity of this method.  For example, Hatsumi is holder of ancient scrolls, documenting the techniques of the ancient families.  He can not possibly have learned everything.  So he is basically "learning by book reading" himself at times.  How is this any different than if someone with experience also reads a book, or watches a video? 

There is a key point here the experience to properly process what one is seeing.  Some people will do things right, others will need more hands-on correction.


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## Satt (Nov 13, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> For those of us who are a little slow (or just too tired to read back through alot) would you clarify how this works?
> 
> You watch the videos, practice with a partner (who may or may not be experienced).
> You videotape yourself doing a test and send it in for grading, however blackbelt testing must be done in person.
> ...


Yes. That is correct. I give you a gold star for retention. artyon:


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## Bester (Nov 13, 2004)

Satt said:
			
		

> Yes. That is correct. I give you a gold star for retention. artyon:


 :cheers:  
Wait.  It is not water I am retaining is it?

:wavey:


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## Satt (Nov 13, 2004)

You are a master memory retainer. Even when people hit you in the head like this...:whip:


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## gmunoz (Nov 14, 2004)

Okay fellow To-Shin Do brethren, 

Looks like there should be less arguing around here for awhile (thank God).  It gets pretty tiresome trying to defend oneself.  Anyhow, how many are going to Fall Festival in Dayton next Fall?  Have you registered already?  If you do so now, you can get it for a reduced rate.  How are you getting there?  Are you aware that any other style can attend?


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## Satt (Nov 14, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Okay fellow To-Shin Do brethren,
> 
> Looks like there should be less arguing around here for awhile (thank God). It gets pretty tiresome trying to defend oneself. Anyhow, how many are going to Fall Festival in Dayton next Fall? Have you registered already? If you do so now, you can get it for a reduced rate. How are you getting there? Are you aware that any other style can attend?


I am pretty sure anyone can go. I just have to save some money for a while. It is kindof expensive. I will drive there though and get a hotel. I think I am gonna go a couple days early and attend a couple classes before hand.


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## jibran (Nov 14, 2004)

I have found Independence Air to be reasonably priced to Dayton. If you book early, the cost is 30 dollars less. Also, if you go early, the one-day mat fee at Hombu is reduced.


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## Limeydog (Nov 14, 2004)

I shall definately be there in Sept. I will also probably go down a little earlier to get some serious training in, possibly get some private training/mat time.

Looking forward to meeting everyone, so I can put a face to a name. Hey Satt you look very much like Will Farrell. Uncanny LOL. Thanks for the new email address.

Bester, hope the information from the last few posts have helped somewhat. Yes you can test upto Brown belt by video but have to test in person before An Shu Hayes. I think it works. If you are not ready to test then youdon't test. The good news is you don't have to repay the test fee if you fail, they hold onto it for you...

All in all i think a lot of thought went into the Toshindo/Quest HSC. But the proof will be in how well everyone moves in Sept...


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## Satt (Dec 5, 2004)

Well, i've got some good news. My wife decided she wants to start working out again and I told her that I will take her to the gym with me if she will start helping me practice my HSC videos. Now I have a training partner!!! Kinda like Gabriel and his son. I am really excited. Hopefully she will stick with it though. I really want us both to be in good shape and I think it would be so awesome to study martial arts with my wife!!!


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## Deaf (Dec 5, 2004)

Well...I won't be attending the Festival since I will definitely not be welcome  

But since most of you attending the festival will be in my town, it would be a shame not to meet you if the opportunity presented itself and if you like, you can come to the dojo I train at for some training as well. 

Deaf


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## jibran (Dec 6, 2004)

Why would you not be welcome? On Quest-L, Bujinkan students have expressed that they've gone to the festival. It'd be cool if there was some sort of MT Ninpo forum meetup there .


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## Deaf (Dec 6, 2004)

Let's just say I have history and personally I do not have any desire to attend the festival.  

But yes it would be cool for people to get together etc.


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## Flatlander (Dec 7, 2004)

Hi guys, as my first official Mod activity in this forum, I'm re-naming this thread "The To-Shin Do Experience". I believe that was more along the lines of the original intent of the thread. Please feel free to discuss your experiences through home study, your difficulties, your challenges, and your revelations and significant study events.

Further disruption of this thread will not be tolerated.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-


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## Gary Arthur (Dec 8, 2004)

Just returned to the UK after spending four days training at the dayton Quest Centre. Please bear with me whilst i write this as I am still suffering from jet lag.  An Shu Hayes took a lot of time out his schedule to work with me on a personal level, and An Shu Rumiko Hayes, the staff and all of the students were both helpful, friendly and more than willing to teach various aspects of the art to me.
Whilst I was there, there were various students visiting from Colorado, New York and other areas who immediately introduced themselves to me.
During my four days I studied ground fighting, which has got to be experienced for its effectiveness, and striking drills from the TO-SHIN DO. I was also taught the Happo Biken and some of the philosophy behind these sword kata, as well as covering Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ran Sho, Koto Ryu Koyoku and An Shu Rumiko Hayes taught Kukishinden Ryu Bo. 
The trip was well worth all the effort and money to get me there. I found not a hint of back stabbing, snobbery and one up man ship but instead  martial artists working together in a spirit of martial friendship.


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 18, 2005)

I am a tai chi guy but i've been reading these posts and Hayes' site so I drove into east mesa last night and watched a class at the Phoenix Quest Center. The place was immaculate, very well laid out and I met the husand wife teaching team. Their 8-9 pm time slot was open to all belt levels and began with the a philosophical discussion. This was a bit of a surprise as I have never been in a martial arts class that made the time to formally talk over philosophy. It was well structured and was followed by warm-ups and then careful discussion of the body mechanics of a particular technique. I believe he said they were doing the "fire" group. Higher belt levels were given a more demanding version to do. Then there was an exercise called "Free Response" in which a person was surrounded by other students, who would attack at random. They said for a given month they learn new material the first two weeks and practice it in the third week. After awhile the higher level belts started to warm up and get into it a bit, trying all the different moves they knew. I had some interesting insights into yang tai chi's single whip posture from watching their explorations. 

My take on it is that what I saw was extremely simple and extremely practical, useful in real world self defense. But that is just me and another person could walk away with a different opinion. 

At any rate everything about the teaching and the teaching environment was was a class act.


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## MrFunnieman (Mar 21, 2005)

Tai Chi,

You had many kind words in your post.  I think you would have similar experiences at the other Quest Centers around the country.  The Stinsons are good folks.  I had the opportunity to work with them when I was in Dayton.


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