# Different WCK body power generation mechanics



## kung fu fighter (Nov 18, 2014)

There are many degrees or levels of WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power. In my opinion some WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power are more powerful and effective than others. For example, using one's core muscles to torque at their waist by pivoting on the K1 is much more powerful and efficient than using local muscles by pivoting on the heels. While internal snake body power generation is more advanced than the previous two methods.


*These can be categorized into 3 basic different types.
*
1. Rack type (structure, good Yip Man guys such as TST and WSL)
2. Body type (like swinging a baseball bat ie. Alan Orr)
3. Force flow line type (snake body coil spring ie. Hendrik Santo)


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 18, 2014)

Hi kff. 
This thread should prove to be quite interesting!

(Are you based in the USA? East coast? West coast?)


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 18, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Hi kff.
> This thread should prove to be quite interesting!
> 
> (Are you based in the USA? East coast? West coast?)



East coast, I am in Toronto, Canada. How about yourself?


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 18, 2014)

Ah, that sucks. Too far away. Im in TN. Was just curious how far away some of you guys are located. Would be easier to discuss some of these topics if we all could meet n greet.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> *These can be categorized into 3 basic different types.
> *
> 1. Rack type (structure, good Yip Man guys such as TST and WSL)
> 2. Body type (like swinging a baseball bat ie. Alan Orr)
> 3. Force flow line type (snake body coil spring ie. Hendrik Santo)



Can you provide an example of #3?

Thx kff


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## geezer (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> ...internal snake body power generation is more advanced than the previous two methods.



Yeah? That's what _she_ said!

OK, sorry about that bit of adolescent regression, but seriously, all I've ever seen from Hendrik on forums was windy lectures. Is there anyplace where I can see this "internal snake power" demonstrated? To be honest, I'm not getting a full picture from the written word alone.


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 18, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Can you provide an example of #3?
> 
> Thx kff





geezer said:


> all I've ever seen from Hendrik on forums was windy lectures. Is there anyplace where I can see this "internal snake power" demonstrated? To be honest, I'm not getting a full picture from the written word alone.



Sun punch with four types of power generation - YouTube


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Sun punch with four types of power generation - YouTube



Maybe its just me, but I don't see anything in that :29 second clip that is not already contained within the YM WC system. 
I"ll admit it is difficult to understand what he is saying through his thick accent, but by the way his body was moving and punching, didn't seem to be all that special. I could be wrong though... thx for posting it kff. 
So, is the last part of his clip what you meant above by "snake body method" etc?


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 18, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Maybe its just me, but I don't see anything in that :29 second clip that is not already contained within the YM WC system.
> I"ll admit it is difficult to understand what he is saying through his thick accent, but by the way his body was moving and punching, didn't seem to be all that special. I could be wrong though... thx for posting it kff.
> So, is the last part of his clip what you meant above by "snake body method" etc?



Pay attention to the effect that his punch had on his partner's body at 0:19 into the clip. that is the snake body in action also known as the force line type of power generation.

From my understanding here are couple of other videos that uses a similar concept to the force line type:

Any Point on the Body Becomes a Weapon - YouTube
Any Point on the Body Becomes a Weapon - How it Works - YouTube
Here is one from a high level bagua master


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Pay attention to the effect that his punch had on his partner's body at 0:19 into the clip. that is the snake body in action also know as the force line type of power generation.



Thx KFF.
I did pay attention. And thx for posting the vid. What he does is contained in the YM system. The method he uses at :19 affected his training partner because he closed the distance slightly by stepping and extending his shoulder joint...  Stepping and shoulder joint extension is contained within YMWC.


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 18, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Thx KFF.
> I did pay attention. And thx for posting the vid.



you're welcome! Which linage of YM wing chun do you practice?



Kwan Sau said:


> What he does is contained in the YM system. The method he uses at :19 affected his training partner because he closed the distance slightly by stepping and extending his shoulder joint...  Stepping and shoulder joint extension is contained within YMWC.



No it's not that simple, there is alot more to it than that ! in order to do what he is doing, one have to internally cultivate the body. Try stepping and extending your shoulder joint into your partner and see if it has the same type of jarring after effect on your partner as in the clip.

Take a look at the other clips I posted to get a better picture of what I am referring to, for example in the Any Point on the Body Becomes a Weapon - YouTube the opponent is pressing directly against the practioner's torso/body when he bounces him away. there is no stepping or shoulder joint extension involved.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> you're welcome! Which linage of YM wing chun do you practice?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I for one am not buying that. 

It's about as convincing to me as the Kiai master stuff.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> No it's not that simple, there is alot more to it than that!



I'm sure there is more to it...however, is the vid clip you posted a tai chi vid? Are you saying Hendrik does tai chi in the first clip you posted(?)

Also, something else to keep in mind... the guy he is punching. One can't discern from watching a video, however it's difficult to know from watching a video if his elbow structure was constant or varied as Hendrik was executing the various punching methods, etc.


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## geezer (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Take a look at the other clips I posted to get a better picture of what I am referring to, for example in the Any Point on the Body Becomes a Weapon - YouTube the opponent is pressing directly against the practioner's torso/body when he bounces him away. there is no stepping or shoulder joint extension involved.



I'm sorry, but _this_ is ridiculous. Are you messing with us?


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## zuti car (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Sun punch with four types of power generation - YouTube


Nothing new, all this can be found in Yip Man's WC .


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## zuti car (Nov 18, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Take a look at the other clips I posted to get a better picture of what I am referring to, for example in the Any Point on the Body Becomes a Weapon - YouTube the opponent is pressing directly against the practioner's torso/body when he bounces him away. there is no stepping or shoulder joint extension involved.



I would like to have a chance to push these people for real , just once


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 18, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> I'm sure there is more to it...however, is the vid clip you posted a tai chi vid? Are you saying Hendrik does tai chi in the first clip you posted(?)



No, Hendrik doesn't do tai chi, he does wing chun, I posted the tai chi vid because it was the closest I could find on youtube to what the force flow of snake engine looks like, since you said the clip of Hendrik was too short. 



Kwan Sau said:


> Also, something else to keep in mind... the guy he is punching. One can't discern from watching a video, however it's difficult to know from watching a video if his elbow structure was constant or varied as Hendrik was executing the various punching methods, etc.



I assure you my elbow structure is pretty decent, but it didn't work against Hendrik's snake engine force line type force generation. That's why I now practice force line snake engine type power generation. lol

Here is a video of Sergio doing his version of the snake engine


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## LFJ (Nov 19, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> In my opinion some WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power are more powerful and effective than others. For example, using one's core muscles to torque at their waist by pivoting on the K1 is much more powerful and efficient than using local muscles by pivoting on the heels. While internal snake body power generation is more advanced than the previous two methods.



Because it doesn't pivot, but slithers? You think core muscles to torque at the waist are not used when pivoting on the heels? What local muscles do you think are used by pivoting on the heels?



> 1. Rack type (structure, good Yip Man guys such as TST and WSL)
> 2. Body type (like swinging a baseball bat ie. Alan Orr)
> 3. Force flow line type (snake body coil spring ie. Hendrik Santo)



What does "rack type" mean? TST and WSL are not the same. 

Honestly, CSL Wing Chun is the only other lineage I see many close similarities to, from WSLVT, although we are still different.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 19, 2014)

Power generation, IMHO, is not a matter of which method is 'more advanced' or which method uses whatever type of body mechanic. 
Generating and using "power" has a lot to do with having a good grasp of the qualities of yin and yang in each moment of an encounter...both between you and your opponent, your own four limbs, each side of your body, each elbow (most important)...and of course: all being backed up / supported by structurally sound and fast footwork! 
Additionally, timing is also a major factor. Nothing works without it. Or, should I say, some things work better with proper timing. 
Finally, power generation is enhanced by certain power-training exercises unique to WC/WT/VT practitioners. If your instructor teaches this aspect of the art, but the student ignores it because the exercise/drill/routine is "too hard or difficult"...then they will won't have that attribute in their tactical toobox when the **** hits the fan.


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## wtxs (Nov 19, 2014)

geezer said:


> Yeah? That's what _she_ said!
> 
> OK, sorry about that bit of adolescent regression, but seriously, all I've ever seen from Hendrik on forums was windy lectures. Is there anyplace where I can see this "internal snake power" demonstrated? To be honest, I'm not getting a full picture from the written word alone.



Aaaah ... the infamous who discovered the "snake engine".   Careful not to mention his name too many times, like what can happen if you say "Beetle Juice' three times.  I would hate to have him pollute this forum. :waah:


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## Vajramusti (Nov 19, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> There are many degrees or levels of WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power. In my opinion some WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power are more powerful and effective than others. For example, using one's core muscles to torque at their waist by pivoting on the K1 is much more powerful and efficient than using local muscles by pivoting on the heels. While internal snake body power generation is more advanced than the previous two methods.
> 
> 
> *These can be categorized into 3 basic different types.
> ...


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Gross over simplifications of options IMO.


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 21, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Gross over simplifications of options IMO.



Joy, you've met and touched hands with Hendrik, how would you discribe what his hands felt like?

Also from your perception, how would you discribe the mechanics which Hendrik uses compare to what you were shown in Master Ho's linage?


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## Vajramusti (Nov 21, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Joy, you've met and touched hands with Hendrik, how would you discribe what his hands felt like?
> 
> Also from your perception, how would you discribe the mechanics which Hendrik uses compare to what you were shown in Master Ho's linage?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Navin, my intention is not to put down Hendrik. I visited with him years ago at his house when I had gone to San Jose for a friendship get together.
He was a gracious and kind host and he may have picked up more skils since then.I was not impressed with his defense s.

What I was shown in Master Ho's lineage?? I am in the Ho/Fong lineage and sifu Fong has progressed himself over time. There is no comparison between 
what I do and what Hendrik does.


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 21, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Navin, my intention is not to put down Hendrik. I visited with him years ago at his house when I had gone to San Jose for a friendship get together.
> He was a gracious and kind host and he may have picked up more skils since then.I was not impressed with his defense s.
> 
> ...



Joy, from what I understand you don't know the snake engine because Hendrik never showed it to you when you visited him. Which would make sense because when I touched hands with Master Ho's last batch of deciples here in Canada whom got his most refined version of his teachings. I was not overly impressed either, the most senior one I could control and hit at will in chi sao, The second one trained with master Ho privately for many years had good elbow force. But over all none of them were any comparrison to Hendrik's skill level. So I understand your perspective.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 21, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Joy, from what I understand you don't know the snake engine because Hendrik never showed it to you when you visited him.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ...


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## wtxs (Nov 22, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> kung fu fighter said:
> 
> 
> > Joy, from what I understand you don't know the snake engine because Hendrik never showed it to you when you visited him.
> ...


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 28, 2014)

For those of you interested here is Hendrik's new video clips on Force flow of the snake engine


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## Vajramusti (Nov 28, 2014)

geezer said:


> Yeah? That's what _she_ said!
> 
> OK, sorry about that bit of adolescent regression, but seriously, all I've ever seen from Hendrik on forums was windy lectures. Is there anyplace where I can see this "internal snake power" demonstrated? To be honest, I'm not getting a full picture from the written word alone.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 28, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Joy, from what I understand you don't know the snake engine because Hendrik never showed it to you when you visited him. Which would make sense because when I touched hands with Master Ho's last batch of deciples here in Canada whom got his most refined version of his teachings. I was not overly impressed either, the most senior one I could control and hit at will in chi sao, The second one trained with master Ho privately for many years had good elbow force. But over all none of them were any comparrison to Hendrik's skill level. So I understand your perspective.


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Sense or non sense.....I have rolled with hendrik- was not impressed.Toronto  is not the highlight location of Mater Ho's teaching- Macao was-- so called touching hands in Toronto does not give a full picture of Ho kam ming's work. He is now an old man and completely retired.And I don't have the time or patience or space to do justice to what my sigung was about. I show things to my students and select friends and visitors. It is not my living but my love. I have rolled with lots of people from practically every major line but I wont do any ego driven  chest beating here. Hendrik in his own way just repackages in a jumbled fashion cherry picking from various You tube videos what is already known-- on springs, joints, "bows", action- reaction, circles, lines etc- and not in an articulate or effective way. Yik Kam wing chun is a minor form of wing chun. And hendrik has his own problems of legitimacy with other yik Kam folks including his senior Wang Kiu Kit. But I can understand how some people in visiting Hendrik may have been impressed.
So now after some peace and quiet we have the return of Hendrik from the shadows after messing up on other forums. Why not just provide a you tube  Hendrik link and let it go rather than begin a chain of Hendrik videos here? Let's keep this forum a sensible place free of dogmatism and excesses of ego.


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 28, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sense or non sense.....I have rolled with hendrik- was not impressed.Toronto  is not the highlight location of Mater Ho's teaching- Macao was-- so called touching hands in Toronto does not give a full picture of Ho kam ming's work. He is now an old man and completely retired.And I don't have the time or patience or space to do justice to what my sigung was about. I show things to my students and select friends and visitors. It is not my living but my love. I have rolled with lots of people from practically every major line but I wont do any ego driven  chest beating here.



Good point Joy, Master Ho always said in terms of skill Level, his Best student was Sifu Lui Min Fai in Macau. And In truth I've never touched hands with him, but thanks to Youtube one can now see the mechanics he is using which is just Good elbow and body structure, he does not use force flow or snake engine that Hendrik does or speaks about.



Vajramusti said:


> Hendrik in his own way just repackages in a jumbled fashion cherry picking from various You tube videos what is already known-- on springs, joints, "bows", action- reaction, circles, lines etc- and not in an articulate or effective way.



What Hendrik does has more in common with the internal arts compared to any wing chun youtube videos, so i don't see how this could be possible.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 28, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Good point Joy, Master Ho always said in terms of in terms of skill Level, his Best student was Sifu Lui Min Fai in Macau. And In truth I've never touched hands with him, but thanks to Youtube one can now see the mechanics he is using which is just Good elbow and body structure, he does not use force flow or snake engine that Hendrik does or speaks about.
> 
> 
> 
> What Hendrik does has more in common with the internal art compare to than to what most wing chun sifus do or any youtube videos, so i don't see how this could be possible.


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Best student? HKM has had lots of good students.

Internal?? A good system will have internal elements. Most wing chun sifus? Hardly a source of authority.
Good wing chun remains a rare art. Gresham's law applies--the bad drives out the good.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> ...thanks to *Youtube* one can now see the mechanics he is using which is just Good elbow and body structure, he does not use force flow or snake engine...



I'm always impressed by how much some people can see from_* youtube clips*_. Personally, I need to see and feel a person's pressure in person to  get an understanding of the energy they are using.


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## Danny T (Nov 28, 2014)

geezer said:


> I'm always impressed by how much some people can see from_* youtube clips*_. Personally, I need to see and feel a person's pressure in person to  get an understanding of the energy they are using.


Yep!


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## Vajramusti (Nov 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Yep!


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## Vajramusti (Nov 28, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Yep!





Danny T said:


> Yep!


-----------------------------------------------------------

Apparently many folks these days don't have competent sifus correcting them on details.

Lots of self taught youtube watching sources of "authority", Among many other  things  you
don't see subtle and competent  fusions of internal and external.


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 7, 2014)

Since the The "Force flow in WCK" thread was locked, i will post my reply to this on here



Hendrik said:


> Navin,
> 
> Do you think this Zuti can take one single force flow short from me?
> He claim he can take ten strike to his stomach.
> one needs to think before one talk. Lol



Hendrik uses force line type power generation which will penetrate even a thick Thai pad or phone book and damage your internal organs, this type of force will even penetrate iron body skills. I certainly would not want to be hit by him and I highly doubt you would be able to take just one of his full power strike to your stomach.





















7 Bows skill demonstrated by Sifu Sergio during an IWKA Wing Tjun Instructor Seminar - YouTube


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## Vajramusti (Dec 7, 2014)

wtxs said:


> Aaaah ... the infamous who discovered the "snake engine".   Careful not to mention his name too many times, like what can happen if you say "Beetle Juice' three times.  I would hate to have him pollute this forum. :waah:


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## Vajramusti (Dec 7, 2014)

Hopefully no more spamming by Hendrik and his converts.


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## Hendrik (Dec 7, 2014)

Joy,

If you like to start your thread and offer your art. And let the Wck commutiy judge it is have any value. Please do that .
That would be great!

In the mean time, could you please leave me and others alone to discuss our stuffs peacefully?


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## Vajramusti (Dec 7, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> Joy,
> 
> If you like to start your thread and offer your art. And let the Wck commutiy judge it is have any value. Please do that .
> That would be great!
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- I am entitled to comment on your repeated posting of the same old same old stuff. Another forum was ruined by your spamming
and I really think that MT should have civil diversity. Your stuff is on Youtube- people can see them there as they can many other
videos.
Good wing chun from several lineages know the importance of coordinated spin. They also know about energy flow. usage of joints.
Repackaging with different phrases and  repeatedly posting basically the same stuff again and again and again is indeeda form of spamming.,,
a one way street of repeated dogmatism.

I don't do it , the WSL people don't do it,the WT people don't do it, TST people don't do it...etc.


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## Hendrik (Dec 7, 2014)

Joy,

The Usa is a democratic and free speech country.

Your opinion and accusation doesn't make you right. Because in this country, one is innocent before proven guilty.

Not to mention your accusation on me ruin by me is baseless. 

And I have my free speech right, never did I cause any trouble here.


How can I keeping posting same old stuffs? When the youtube is dated two days ago?

I can understand your political position in Wck .
However, if you don't like the topic we discuss, please don't read it. Instead of trying to influence the forum for censorship.

This will be my last reply to you Because there is no point to disturb this forum with personal prejudice or bias.


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2014)

Folks,
Style bashing is rather strongly discouraged here.  Personal attacks aren't very welcome, either.

Here's the simple deal:  Disagree, discuss your styles or differences within a style civilly, and you'll be fine.  Cross the line and start simply bashing each other or each other's style...  Well, then we'll have problems.  

Any questions -- take it up with senior staff.


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## KPM (Dec 7, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ---
> Hendrik- I am entitled to comment on your repeated posting of the same old same old stuff. Another forum was ruined by your spamming
> .



Actually, IMHO, that "other" forum were ruined by a small group of people that were always criticizing others and causing problems.  People that seemed incapable of carrying on a civil conversation.   It was ruined by the fact that it really had no moderator input.  So I welcome that input here.


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## Hendrik (Dec 8, 2014)

For those who is interested in technical discussion

A complete Ancient Chinese martial art system always talk about

架（physical structure)，劲 ( force flow or jin)，勢 (momentum)

As in this video Gm Chen Xiao Wang present the force flow of Chen taiji and clearly state structure is only for practice in the begining, one later discard it.

 - YouTube
- YouTube

This is the reality , it is not making a structure then try to hold it . But elevate to force flow.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 8, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> For those who is interested in technical discussion
> 
> A complete Ancient Chinese martial art system always talk about
> 
> ...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure. So what is the point.?


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## Vajramusti (Dec 8, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> For those who is interested in technical discussion
> 
> A complete Ancient Chinese martial art system always talk about
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------
First have to develop a competent structure- then freeing oneself from limitations.
CXW spends quality time in correcting beginners structure- a tuck here a tuck there etc.


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 8, 2014)

For Wck, force flow and momentum are not describe explicitly in the past.
However,  Implicitly description of the past generation exist in stories and movies.

Such as in Ipman Leung Bik rag cloth story the concept of force flow . And in the movie prodigal son the ideal and dramatized momentum uniqueness

We in the west are beginning to explicitly brought the force flow and momentum of Wck into spot light.


Some might questions how can we know we are on target?

Well, from various ancient Chinese martial arts writing and practice, the ancient Wck writings and practice , from stories all Wck lineages such as the above Ipman Leung Bik story , from the mother arts writing and practice  of 1840 Siu Lin tao, from physics, ..etc We can place these data and map out the common denominator.

With these common denominator we know it is very very likely what it is in the first order in term of theory and practice.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 8, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Pay attention to the effect that his punch had on his partner's body at 0:19 into the clip. that is the snake body in action also known as the force line type of power generation.
> 
> From my understanding here are couple of other videos that uses a similar concept to the force line type:
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------
Belaboring the obvious- for decent Ip Man folks-many of whom are not fascinated by you tube


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm starting to think that this "7-bow" "force flow" "mother art" "technology" may have somehow eluded Hendrik and his team of aspirants in their original wing chun training or upbringing...thus perhaps they feel that this "secret" is so special? 
I'm also thinking that some of us on here think that this "force flow momentum" stuff is nothing new under the sun and is intrinsic of good WC training anyway. 
Nothing I have seen leads me to think that this stuff is anything special, unique, or somehow separate from good Yip Man Wing Chun. 
Not being negative or confrontational...just stating an observation. No tone or inflection implied Gents...

PS: even "if" this uber-powerful stuff is somehow new and unique to Hendrik and his constituents...I've yet to see it their power-generation mechanics applied in an aggressive, non-compliant, chaotic scenario. 

If it's new to "them"...then fantastic. 
But a solid grounding in good YPWC will provide the trainee this power generation method...


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## Vajramusti (Dec 8, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> I'm starting to think that this "7-bow" "force flow" "mother art" "technology" may have somehow eluded Hendrik and his team of aspirants in their original wing chun training or upbringing...thus perhaps they feel that this "secret" is so special?
> I'm also thinking that some of us on here think that this "force flow momentum" stuff is nothing new under the sun and is intrinsic of good WC training anyway.
> Nothing I have seen leads me to think that this stuff is anything special, unique, or somehow separate from good Yip Man Wing Chun.
> Not being negative or confrontational...just stating an observation. No tone or inflection implied Gents...
> ...


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## Vajramusti (Dec 8, 2014)

Old wine in new bottles with a different label...


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## Kwan Sau (Dec 8, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Old wine in new bottles with a different label...



Glad somebody agrees with me!


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## geezer (Dec 8, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Old wine in new bottles with a different label...



Pardon the random digression, but wouldn't it be more profitable to sell _new_ wine in _old _(vintage) bottles?

Regardless, I agree with your sentiment!


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## wtxs (Dec 8, 2014)

geezer said:


> Pardon the random digression, but wouldn't it be more profitable to sell _new_ wine in _old _(vintage) bottles?



Pa-leeease don't give them any more crazy ideas...


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## Danny T (Dec 8, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> For those who is interested in technical discussion
> 
> A complete Ancient Chinese martial art system always talk about
> 
> ...


Learn these principles in my training just not with all the verbiage and vocabulary. Thanks for the perspective.


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## Hendrik (Dec 9, 2014)

Reading the comments, give me an idea of many never view the force flow utubes, don't know what it is,  but made big assumption

What we present is a science based on physics biomechanics in systematic approach. Clearly describe what it is clearly  instead " my lineage is better, my lineage has it all"


Technology such as iphone needs a scientific based instead of " I have it too, I have it all, nothing new" believe. 

That's why one doesn't stop at iphone 1 forever, it is iphone 6+ now and iPhone 10 is going to come. One doesn't stood still  in time saying and believing " Steve job" has it all since the first day, but not be able to describe the science and engineering development .

Technology is something continous to grow based on science and that is what we presented, it is different then cult which belive one has all solution but not able to describe things clearly.


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## Hendrik (Dec 9, 2014)

These utube shows exactly what happen, and most never watch them and try to understand what have been presented


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## Hendrik (Dec 9, 2014)

We now can model things with physics


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 13, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> There are many degrees or levels of WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power. In my opinion some WCK body mechanics and ways to generate power are more powerful and effective than others. For example, using one's core muscles to torque at their waist by pivoting on the K1 is much more powerful and efficient than using local muscles by pivoting on the heels. While internal snake body power generation is more advanced than the previous two methods.
> 
> 
> *These can be categorized into 3 basic different types.
> ...



Hey Guys! This is my first attempt at a youtube video, it's on # 3 internal snake body power generation


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## Vajramusti (Dec 13, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Hey Guys! This is my first attempt at a youtube video, it's on # 3 internal snake body power generation


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Sorry-I just see muscling and pushing. Others may see differently.


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## Hendrik (Dec 13, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Hey Guys! This is my first attempt at a youtube video, it's on # 3 internal snake body power generation




Great sharing!

Thanks and appreciate!

Everything has to start somewhere with down to earth action


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 13, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Sorry-I just see muscling and pushing. Others may see differently.



Thanks for the reply Joy! perhaps you can post a clip of the type of structure or power generation that you use, so we can all get a better picture of what you view as ideal wing chun.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 13, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> Thanks for the reply Joy! perhaps you can post a clip of the type of structure or power generation that you use, so we can all get a better picture of what you view as ideal wing chun.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Navin. Thanks for your video. I dont have a video camera and I don't post on Youtube.. But I do share with accepted guests what I do.
It is a spinoff from Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong versions of wing chun. My article and related photos on stability and mobility
in wing chun in the JAMA and photos on applications in the JAMA book  are illustrative of what I  do. I have met Hendrik and I was not impressed with his version of wing chun.. But please be clear- I dont have a problem with diversities in wing chun. But I am skeptical of claims of appeals to physics as though no one else uses physics principles.
view them.



"Wing Chun" Two applications-Pak tan combination and lop da combination in "Asian martial Arts: constructive thoughts and practical applications" 
Published by Journal of Asian Martial Arts-finale issue/Via Media Publishing Co ~ 2012 
_Amazon  iTunes  Via Media Books  ISBN 978-1-893765-04-7 (alk.paper) _


_
Wing Chun's Chum Kiu Form: A Study in Stability and Mobility,
Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 16, No. 4 ~ 2007  (656K

--------------------------------

PS, I take responsibility for my understanding of structure, mobility and power.. While I have learned from my sifu and sigung- my mistakes are my own..

_


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## dlcox (Dec 13, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Navin. Thanks for your video. I dont have a video camera and I don't post on Youtube.. But I do share with accepted guests what I do.
> It is a spinoff from Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong versions of wing chun. My article and related photos on stability and mobility
> in wing chun in the JAMA and photos on applications in the JAMA book  are illustrative of what I  do. I have met Hendrik and I was not impressed with his version of wing chun.. But please be clear- I dont have a problem with diversities in wing chun. But I am skeptical of claims of appeals to physics as though no one else uses physics principles.
> ...



Don't feed the trolls Joy, if you give a mouse a cookie it'll want a glass of milk.

Just more nonsense from the snake cult telling us all how we are all doing it wrong and never learned the real stuff.


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## Hendrik (Dec 13, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Don't feed the trolls Joy, if you give a mouse a cookie it'll want a glass of milk.
> 
> Just more nonsense from the snake cult telling us all how we are all doing it wrong and never learned the real stuff.




Lol.

Look like can't expect objective civil Rational  technical conversation


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## dlcox (Dec 13, 2014)

If only it were that simple Hendrik. We have gone round and round about this, you know my view I know yours. What I can't understand is why you try so hard to convert those that disagree with you. Many of us who have legitimately trained in good Yongchun know where we stand and are confident in what we have been taught, in what we have "discovered" in our training and what we find relevant and useful in our personal style. Then you come along and tell us what we have been taught and what we've learned is essentially garbage. That you alone have discovered the true way and must teach it to the masses as if you were some messiah of Yongchun. That all of the ancestors that have developed, nurtured and taught the art of Yongchun over the years didn't know what they we doing with the art that they created, but you a several generations removed from the creators practitioner, has secretly discovered what has been "Lost" or simply not taught to us infidels. I won't apologize for not buying what your selling. Keep preaching to those that clearly haven't comprehended what they've been taught, have been taught watered down low level material or simply can't think independently or objectively. Please by all means continue to repackage arcane TCMA theories and pass them off as new "Technologies" to unwitting fools. You think that you are evolving the art of Yongchun, IMO all you are doing is further degrading a once noble art. Congratulations on spreading an infectious disease that has left a necrotic festering wound on the art Yongchun that will take years to heal.


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 13, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Many of us who have legitimately trained in good Yongchun know where we stand and are confident in what we have been taught, in what we have "discovered" in our training and what we find relevant and useful in our personal style. Then you come along and tell us what we have been taught and what we've learned is essentially garbage. That you alone have discovered the true way and must teach it to the masses as if you were some messiah of Yongchun. That all of the ancestors that have developed, nurtured and taught the art of Yongchun over the years didn't know what they we doing with the art that they created, but you a several generations removed from the creators practitioner, has secretly discovered what has been "Lost" or simply not taught to us infidels.



"The world hates change, yet it is the only thing that has brought progress". Charles Kettering

LOL bingo you hit the nail on the head. No one like change especially when they have already invested so much time and effort and built their reputation around less effective methods, and some guy comes along and tell them they've got it all wrong. What did you think happened when Bruce Lee told all those experienced Black belts they've been practicing Sh!t for all those years. About 98% of them rejected his views. Christopher columbus said the world was round, but the world rejected his view. Galileo said the Earth revolves around the sun, but people at that time rejected his view. I don't expect anything different with Hendrik's views!


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## Hendrik (Dec 13, 2014)

dlcox said:


> If only it were that simple Hendrik. We have gone round and round about this, you know my view I know yours. What I can't understand is why you try so hard to convert those that disagree with you. Many of us who have legitimately trained in good Yongchun know where we stand and are confident in what we have been taught, in what we have "discovered" in our training and what we find relevant and useful in our personal style. Then you come along and tell us what we have been taught and what we've learned is essentially garbage. That you alone have discovered the true way and must teach it to the masses as if you were some messiah of Yongchun. That all of the ancestors that have developed, nurtured and taught the art of Yongchun over the years didn't know what they we doing with the art that they created, but you a several generations removed from the creators practitioner, has secretly discovered what has been "Lost" or simply not taught to us infidels. I won't apologize for not buying what your selling. Keep preaching to those that clearly haven't comprehended what they've been taught, have been taught watered down low level material or simply can't think independently or objectively. Please by all means continue to repackage arcane TCMA theories and pass them off as new "Technologies" to unwitting fools. You think that you are evolving the art of Yongchun, IMO all you are doing is further degrading a once noble art. Congratulations on spreading an infectious disease that has left a necrotic festering wound on the art Yongchun that will take years to heal.




Do you know that you have go off topic ? 

Kungfu fighter share his utube, plain and simple.


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## Hendrik (Dec 13, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> "The world hates change, yet it is the only thing that has brought progress". Charles Kettering
> 
> LOL bingo you hit the nail on the head. No one like change especially when they have already invested so much time and effort and built their reputation around less effective methods, and some guy comes along and tell them they've got it all wrong. What did you think happened when Bruce Lee told all those experienced Black belts they've been practicing Sh!t for all those years. About 98% of them rejected his views. Christopher columbus said the world was round, but the world rejected his view. Galileo said the Earth revolves around the sun, but people at that time rejected his view. I don't expect anything different with Hendrik's views!




It isn't even my view. It is in the Wck sets. 

Don't trust me, check it out what and how your SNT develop the power for Wck.


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## dlcox (Dec 13, 2014)

Change is inevitable it is a constant, unfortunately it can be for the better or worse. You and others hold Hendrik in high regard and hail him as an enlightened savior. His theories and methods are nothing more than repackaged TCMA concepts, nothing new and have yet to be scientifically explained or demonstrated with any validity. Many thought that individuals like Adolf Hitler, Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, Charles Manson and Josef Stalin were great leaders and held grand ideas on how things should be conducted and run. Their ideas lead to the death of millions. Simply because something is different doesn't mean it is better, more efficient or more productive, especially when it is unproven. Put any name you want to your "Theory" you will not convince me that it is anything new or relevant. I do not care about your belief and faith in it, to each their own, if it works for you, great, I'm happy for you, but don't have the audacity to tell me what I'm doing is wrong simply because you think your method is superior, especially when it is based on nothing more than assumption. None of you have proven anything with all your dialogue and youtube videos, I have seen nothing that convinces me that your way is any better than anyone else's. This whole "Snake Engine" thing in Yongchun is no different than the conflicts within the various sects of Christianity. One root, many branches all arguing about who possesses the true original interpretation, all for nothing more than trying to sway opinion and hold a monopoly over the followers.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 13, 2014)

-----------------------------------.

Look like can't expect objective civil Rational  technical conversation[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------
 Cheers and bye bye on this thread for now.
[ .


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## zuti car (Dec 13, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> "The world hates change, yet it is the only thing that has brought progress". Charles Kettering
> 
> LOL bingo you hit the nail on the head. No one like change especially when they have already invested so much time and effort and built their reputation around less effective methods, and some guy comes along and tell them they've got it all wrong. What did you think happened when Bruce Lee told all those experienced Black belts they've been practicing Sh!t for all those years. About 98% of them rejected his views. Christopher columbus said the world was round, but the world rejected his view. Galileo said the Earth revolves around the sun, but people at that time rejected his view. I don't expect anything different with Hendrik's views!


I like changes and I am eager to learn new stuff and i have no problem to make changes if I find something good . Sorry to say but I cannot find anything new or good in hendrik's preaching . About Bruce Lee , his views are actually views of Tang Hao and a group of people who lived and worked in 1920's and 1930"s , everything he had done or said was already done and said in China , he just used an opportunity of being only Chinese martial artist exposed to the media at the time to use phrases of classical chinese literature and knowledge and approaches already developed by group of excellent martial artists decades before his birth as his own . On the other hand we do not have any recording of Bruce's real fight so we cannot know a real level of his skill , we only have movies . If you find hendrik's views as something worth practicing that is ok , what is not ok is to tell people who do not agree with you that their approaches are wrong or inferior . If you believe in superiority of hendrik's system you can go to some MMA  competition and try it out , if you win several fights everyone will have clear evidence that hendrik's stuff are real thing . Real fighting is only criteria for quality of someone's art and skill


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 14, 2014)

zuti car said:


> If you believe in superiority of hendrik's system you can go to some MMA  competition and try it out , if you win several fights everyone will have clear evidence that hendrik's stuff are real thing . Real fighting is only criteria for quality of someone's art and skill



I could asked the same of your system or anyone else's system on here! but that only proves one individual is a good fighter, not necessarily that it's a good system. MMA is not the measuring stick which sets the bar of wck skills for me. Being able to defend one's self on the street against multiple attackers some of whom is armed with weapons is.

MMA is a full contact sparring match, nothing more, it is not a life or death situation that wing chun was intend for. Fighting and sparring have two completely different mind set, having done both i know the difference.


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## dlcox (Dec 14, 2014)

Other systems aren't making grand claims of superiority. You snake cult people are. You cite that Hendrik's methods are internal power generation. Wouldn't power generation transend multiple arenas of use? If you can use it in the ring you can use it in the street. Or can this "METHOD" only be applied in ambiguious youtube clips showing compliant chi shou? Surely if it's a method that can enable one to defeat multiple armed opponents in the street, you could easily defeat one unarmed opponent in the ring. Especially since it is a theory on power development and use and not on mind set, or are ya'll adding some "forgotten" Yongchun psychology to it now?


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## Danny T (Dec 14, 2014)

Don't know the characters in the preceding displays on the energies nor the terminologies (Force flow, Snake engine, etc) however the concepts are known within the training I have received. Just a different presentation (marketing). So what?!
All I know is I am a human. I move like a human, I generate power and force as a human just as all other humans do. The body mechanics are that of a human not of something else. All the best in your endeavors but I see nothing new or secret in what has been presented. Even seeing what I would consider to be too much physical strength but not feeling it at this point is only conjector.


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## Hendrik (Dec 14, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Don't know the characters in the preceding displays on the energies nor the terminologies (Force flow, Snake engine, etc) however the concepts are known within the training I have received. Just a different presentation (marketing). So what?!
> .




Please share your utube .


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## Danny T (Dec 14, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> Please share your utube .


What utube? I don't have a utube. Don't know anything about utube. I know of youtube though however, I'm sorry for I don't do youtube either. What does youtube have to do with the training I have received having the concepts you put forth? You have a different presentation, that's all. Everyone one has a different way to present it. So What.


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## wtxs (Dec 14, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> Look like can't expect objective civil Rational  technical conversation



Rational post be gets rational respond.



Hendrik said:


> Please share your utube .



Is having polluting the forum with all your videos validates you're the only one of this century that have the talen and insight to recovered/discovered the so called lost WC "technology".  The only thing being proved is your arrogance.  

If your 1840 and 2014 WC technology is all superior than others, why are we not seeing more of your believers comes to your defense???


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## Hendrik (Dec 14, 2014)

wtxs said:


> Rational post be gets rational respond.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It is Navin shared his video. No need to go off topic.

If you disagree with him, share your video.


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## wtxs (Dec 14, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> It is Navin shared his video. No need to go off topic.  If you disagree with him, share your video.



If I have it right, subject of the said video is about momentum, force flow, snake engine and all that jive.

Navin is one of your strongerst supporter, it's cowardly of you to cut him off at the knees instead of giving him your back.

Disagree with Navin is in essence disagreeing with you, I (we) haven't the need to prove anything by up loading long winded video on things any competent WC practician should have already figured out.


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## Hendrik (Dec 14, 2014)

wtxs said:


> If I have it right, subject of the said video is about momentum, force flow, snake engine and all that jive.
> 
> Navin is one of your strongerst supporter, it's cowardly of you to cut him off at the knees instead of giving him your back.
> 
> Disagree with Navin is in essence disagreeing with you, I (we) haven't the need to prove anything by up loading long winded video on things any competent WC practician should have already figured out.




Lol. 

Save your logic for yourself.  Not interested . Thanks but no thanks!


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## Vajramusti (Dec 15, 2014)

Hendrik said:


> Lol.
> 
> Save your logic for yourself.  Not interested . Thanks but no thanks!


-------------------------------------------------------------------???
I thought that  wtxs gave a rational response which you choose to ignore.

BTW  Navin made some remarks about Ho Kam Ming and tried to rank his students.
The information is distorted-and in my opinion HKM would not give him the time of day..

Navin's classification of 3 kinds of wing chun "engines" or dynamics is a straw man kind of logic
And comparing snake body wing chun as comparable to Galileo's paradigm shift is preposterous
and bad history of science.

Claiming that snake body wing chun is the original wing chun and that others have lost their way
is a presumptuous slam against others  who have had hands on training with wing chun sifus..

Subjective inferences  about what others do by watching YOUtube is neither physics  nor
decent logic. I have met you and have some basis for commenting rather than just
depending on youtube.


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## Danny T (Dec 15, 2014)

Not really wanting to get into a piling on to this snake engine, force flow thing but changing the terminology and showing a few videos simply doesn't help me. Even in your constant usage of the term utube vs youtube suggests, to me, your communication style is to change terminology to suit your agenda or your message. Cool, I have no problem with that other than you do so in a way that yours is but the only truth. You ask for a discussion but only if it is with a video. The videos I've seen about snake engine, force flow has been only verbiage and some bits of striking and some pushing and pulling displays. In that verbiage and displays I have seen nothing, nothing different or en-lighting compared to the training I have received other than the presentation. In the displays some have what appears to be more muscling than I'd want to see in my students. However, not being able to 'feel' (and this is the major problem I have with using video as the expert standard)..., Not being able to feel I am unable to give a true assessment of what is happening. It is awesome you and other's put yourselves out on display in the attempt to help some understand the body and energies. However, video does nothing for feel and though I cannot speak for others I believe it is probably the same for them in that is why I don't use video to teach energies. It has to be felt. The thing is yours in not the only truth or way. Neither is mine but it is excellent, I like it and it works for me. All the best.


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