# Locking and Controlling



## MJS (Jul 14, 2003)

Just wondering what everybodies thoughts were on the subject of locks.  Before I get started, I am not referring to ground fighting, but instead being able to control the person while standing.  Rather than always use such devastating moves such as a kick to the groin or knee, or a hit to the eyes or throat, all of which can cause serious damage, why not control the person with a lock or hold?  

Nowadays, people do not think twice about a lawsuit, and it seems more and more like the laws are favoring the criminal, not the innocent victim.  Regardless of whether this guy was trying to ask you for money or car jack you, if you use more force than he is using against you, you run the risk of getting sued by him!

If you are at a party or bar and a drunk friend starts causing trouble, rather than kick him in the knee, a much better choice would be a controlling method to escort the person out.  Something to also keep in mind if you are a bouncer.

Just curious about everybodies opinion on the topic!!

Mike


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## RCastillo (Jul 14, 2003)

I think it's vital , and certainly compliments our work. If we can keep an event from escalating into something worse, then by all means.

It's also important to understand the limitations as well.:asian:


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## MJS (Jul 14, 2003)

Oh definately!  The locking is only an option that you have available to you.  It by no means is the solution to every situation.  Standing there, controlling some guy that is struggling with you isnt the greatest thing, but if you can control him until help arrvies, it will look much better to have only caused him some pain, rather than have the cops see that you broke the guys nose.

Mike


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## Elfan (Jul 14, 2003)

I prefer the "fall down when the cops pull in and then be the first to get up when they get there" plan myself ;-)

You do raise a valid point though.  When Uncle Joe has had too much to drink is too roudy at the family dinner its not time for those groin kicks and eye stikes.

Its important to understand all of the web of knowledge from both sides.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jul 14, 2003)

> When Uncle Joe has had too much to drink is too roudy at the family dinner its not time for those groin kicks and eye stikes.



I'm sure your kidding......  right?  Obviously there is more to the MA than the aforementioned attacks.  The clinch combined with disruptive movement can go a long way.  Every body has been dead legged at one time or another or taken a shot to the solar plexus, none of which caused major damage.  

Control manipulation must be approached carefully, because if you can touch an opponent that means they can touch you.  It is highly unlikely that you will be pulling punches out of the air and converting it into a COME-A-LONG or something of that nature.  The other bad thing about pure manipulation is that at some point you have to let go and if your intent was not to do any damage than more than likely you have a pissed off snake by the head.  Be careful how you release it.

Being a smaller guy I'm a big advocate of the combination of control manipulation and striking.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 14, 2003)

All joint locks, throws, chokes require some kind of stun. You must hit them to get their attention off of the lock/throw/choke. That is why Brazilian jujutsu take so long to lock or choke their opponent out. They try to gas them out. It is also very hard to control someone with just a comelong. After awhile the brain gets use to the pain. That is when you hit them some more or use some kind of nerve strike. Also when I talk about ground control, I am refering to something the police would use. Not flopping down on the ground and putting someone in your guard. You can use an arm bar throw, in which they are laying face down on the ground, and you drop a knee into the back of their tricep. From there you can control them until the cops come or escape. Remember if you call the cops, they are not just going to magically a peer, it may take them more then 5 minutes to show up. In that much time anything could and will happen. I always tell my students any time you change locks you must stun them again. If you start to lose control of them stun them again. In are class we practice getting out of each other's locks. Never know when someone else may try putting a lock on you.
Bob :asian:


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## MJS (Jul 14, 2003)

I agree.  Most people will NOT stand stil and let you apply a joint lock.  A strike or distraction prior to applying the lock will definately help in putting it on.  On the topic of being close to the opp.  If you are close enough to block, then you are close enough to parry the punch and position yoursellf into the lock.  You probably will have to do a hit to get the attn. off of the lock, but this is possible to do!  

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Jul 15, 2003)

Contact Manipulation, Control Immobilization, Contact Release, etc., are an integral part of what I teach.  I cannot take credit for it all.  It has been in Kenpo since the early days.  In the mid 80's we were rolling on the ground grappling at camps.  Lock Flow was brought into the system, (Larry Hartsell I believe), which grafts nicely into techniques where you don't want to trash them, but retain the option for "finishing" the techniques.

I give credit to Todd Durgin in Washington State for systematically exploring all the base techniques and creating extensions utilizing contact or control manipulations for every technique.  A huge undertaking.  I also explore manipulations within the context of the individual techniques, both with clubs and empty hands.  Levers, fulcrums, restricting range of motions, constictions, etc.  

Great fun, and all the principles are within Kenpo, even if it took me seeing it outside Kenpo to understand how the same movements are found within our system.


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2003)

Thats the great thing about the lock flow series.  Granted, you will not stand there, and go through an entire series of locks, but if one is not working for you, at least you will have something else that you can fall back on.

Mike


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## twinkletoes (Jul 16, 2003)

I love all that stuff.  Any kind of contact manipulation, from checking to locking and throwing is just fine by me.

I'm starting to learn greco-roman for tie-up controls, and I find that it flows freely from the Kenpo and Arnis, and makes for a good segue into the locks and controls.  Even if you just grab the head in a muay thai plumm and control that way, it's SO much easier than try to go straight into the locks.

~TT


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## M F (Jul 18, 2003)

Anyone know where to find info on "lock flow" that is specifically aimed at Kenpoists?  I have seen lock flow material, but not directly aimed at Kenpoists.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by M F _
> *Anyone know where to find info on "lock flow" that is specifically aimed at Kenpoists?  I have seen lock flow material, but not directly aimed at Kenpoists. *



Beg, barrow, or steal from whom every you can. Does it matter if it is for kenpoists? If it works use it. It could come from kali/arnis, chin na, jujutsu, hapkido, silat. I will use it. It makes me that much better.
Bob :asian:


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## Doc (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Contact Manipulation, Control Immobilization, Contact Release, etc., are an integral part of what I teach.  I cannot take credit for it all.  It has been in Kenpo since the early days.  In the mid 80's we were rolling on the ground grappling at camps.  Lock Flow was brought into the system, (Larry Hartsell I believe), which grafts nicely into techniques where you don't want to trash them, but retain the option for "finishing" the techniques.
> 
> I give credit to Todd Durgin in Washington State for systematically exploring all the base techniques and creating extensions utilizing contact or control manipulations for every technique.  A huge undertaking.  I also explore manipulations within the context of the individual techniques, both with clubs and empty hands.  Levers, fulcrums, restricting range of motions, constictions, etc.
> ...


As an old "real jiu-jitsu" black belt from Dan Zan Ryu in the islands, Ed Parker taught me plenty, and created parameters specifically for kenpo.


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## MJS (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *Beg, barrow, or steal from whom every you can. Does it matter if it is for kenpoists? If it works use it. It could come from kali/arnis, chin na, jujutsu, hapkido, silat. I will use it. It makes me that much better.
> Bob :asian: *



Great post!! This sounds like something that I have been saying for a looooooooooonnng time now!

MJS


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## twinkletoes (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *As an old "real jiu-jitsu" black belt from Dan Zan Ryu in the islands, Ed Parker taught me plenty, and created parameters specifically for kenpo. *



Doc, 

Can you say more about those parameters?  That sounds like something I'd like to hear a lot more about.  

Best,

~TT


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## progressivetactics (Jul 19, 2003)

back to the begining of the post, I think escalation and de-escalation of any situation should be contemplated,  and trained for.  Not everyone deserves the boot to the groin, although; usually they do!  We should (as well as LEO) be able to control, manipulate and direct any situation.  Not that we will ever know every possibility, the more things we train for, the better preparred we will be if/when it happens.


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## Doc (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Doc,
> 
> Can you say more about those parameters?  That sounds like something I'd like to hear a lot more about.
> ...


Level Four of SubLevel Four Kenpo as I was taught, is arguably the most physically challenging and certainly the most difficult. This is the component that is the most recognizable as different from conventional interpretations of Kenpo. Although as you move through the other three levels you are being slowly introduced to Level Four Concepts, it is not until you get to this level that you are responsible to execute full Control Manipulation off of the same external stimulus of previous curriculum. Additionally, a student is required ultimately to do this extemporaneously in conjunction with striking methodology as necessary.

SubLevel Four Kenpo Control Manipulations have often been confused with jiu-jitsu/aikido but its parameters are much different and are specifically Not pain reliant like other manipulation arts. Mr. Parker always said, "Any technique that relies on "pain" ultimately will fail." This makes the manipulations different from conventional Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido execution. Its roots are in a component of all Chinese Arts called Chin-na. Mr. Parker however dictated, and I continue with those very specific American Kenpo Parameters different form even Chin-na. This by design eliminated pain reliant manipulations and locks in favor of utilizing reflex mechanisms of the body, as well as Anatomical Disassociation Mechanisms to make resistance difficult if not impossible, through Anatomical Restrictive Body Positioning. This simply means manipulations of all kind, major or minor do not have to hurt to work. The goal is to "control" not "hurt," and they too include nerve applications. That doesn't mean that they don't or can't hurt, it's just that your primary goal is control and pain is a vicarious byproduct of your actions. 

These components are integrated with the nerve striking, and other sciences. SubLevel Four Control Manipulations are/can be every bit as aggressive as the stand-alone striking component. They are engineered to produce skills that work together or independently of each other as you desire, or as the situation dictates. By definition Control Manipulation is not a part of motion-based commercial Kenpo, and is not included in the 4 ranges of combat as defined by Ed Parker.

When I asked Parker about "secrets" he always said, "There are no secrets, just things you don't know because you haven't been taught."


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## twinkletoes (Jul 19, 2003)

Thanks for the reply.  

As a followup:

Do you think the Chin Na methodology integrates best with the Sublevel 4 because it already incorporates an understanding of coupling joint manipulation and control with nerves/Pressure points/meridians?  I have yet to see a JJ or Aiki based style that has the same....holistic approach to touch manipulation and anatomical cause-effect that Chin Na seems to incorporate.  Is that what makes it a "better" match for the parameters you are using, or is it something else?

Best,

~TT


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## sumdumguy (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *As an old "real jiu-jitsu" black belt from Dan Zan Ryu in the islands, Ed Parker taught me plenty, and created parameters specifically for kenpo. *



Yes, but who teaches these parameters as taught by Mr. Parker? And when they are taught, are they taught as derivatives of the kenpo system or as something that somehow was never taught to anyone but you by Mr. Parker? As an interested investigator of this area of kenpo I am genuinely curious?

:asian:


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## sumdumguy (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Contact Manipulation, Control Immobilization, Contact Release, etc., are an integral part of what I teach.  I cannot take credit for it all.  It has been in Kenpo since the early days.  In the mid 80's we were rolling on the ground grappling at camps.  Lock Flow was brought into the system, (Larry Hartsell I believe), which grafts nicely into techniques where you don't want to trash them, but retain the option for "finishing" the techniques.
> 
> I give credit to Todd Durgin in Washington State for systematically exploring all the base techniques and creating extensions utilizing contact or control manipulations for every technique.  A huge undertaking.  I also explore manipulations within the context of the individual techniques, both with clubs and empty hands.  Levers, fulcrums, restricting range of motions, constictions, etc.
> ...



Oos! and thank You! Mr. Billings


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## Doc (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Thanks for the reply.
> 
> As a followup:
> ...



It seems to be the best  as far as the foundation Mr. Parker chose. He had a background in manipulation arts and he found the Chinese methodology superior.

But in the old Chinese Arts, everything is intergrated and components are only methods of training. As Jimmy W. Woo said, "it's all the same." But you are correct their methodology is much more holistic above and beyond, "twist this until he hollers" as other arts seem to emphasize. Because it wasn't purely manipulation skills he relied on, removing the "pain reliance" was a stroke of genius that changed the parameters significantly. Part of that came from Ark Wong who said the same thing about pain. In broken English he would say, "It no hurt, it no work." SubLevel Four Kenpo uses those parameters.


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## Doc (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sumdumguy _
> *Yes, but who teaches these parameters as taught by Mr. Parker?
> *


*
Besides me, I have no idea. There are so many people in kenpo who are not "public" it would be hard to say. I simply suggest I personally don't know of anyone.



			And when they are taught, are they taught as derivatives of the kenpo system ...
		
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No, for me they are the system. What I teach is as I have always taught. The only exception is after Mr. Parker passed I could teach more of the information that he previously had said not to.



			....or as something that somehow was never taught to anyone but you by Mr. Parker?
		
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Who am I to comment on what other people were taught? I can only speak for myself and my own lessons. I would love to compare notes with anyone who might say they were taught similar material. Perhaps they received elements I didn't. I am always looking to continue my education, and I listen and evaluate everything from everybody. I do remember at in Baltimore being approached by Lee Wedlake who told me Ed Parker had shared some of "ideas" of SubLevel Four with him. He also told me that Ed Parker told him to keep it to himself.



			As an interested investigator of this area of kenpo I am genuinely curious?
:asian:
		
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*Let me know what you find.


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