# I need help writing a dissertation on the origins of Okinawan Karate



## Ivan (Jun 13, 2019)

I am doing an EPQ (Extended Project Qualification) in the UK, and I have chosen to write a dissertation on the origins of Okinawan Karate, and I was hoping that different history experts could assist me in doing so. For starters, I need to find some good sources, that can be cross-referenced to each other. So far, I have found a book called the Journal of Asian Martial Arts which provides some understanding on the impact of immigration on Karate. I have also managed to find this website:
HISTORY OF OKINAWA KARATE
However, I need more sources and I was hoping someone on here could provide me with something trustworthy?

Next, I have to structure my question in the form where I must provide arguments and counter-arguments i.e. I have to debate myself and the different points I make within the dissertation. To do this, I must structure my question in a manner that will allow me to do so. I have drafted up a couple of questions, but I also would like some input on which would be the most convenient to tackle:

To what extent did immigration and cultural assimilation* impact the origins of Okinawan Karate?
To what extent did conflict and the ban on weapons affect the origins of Okinawan Karate?
To which degree has eastern philosophy affected the development of Okinawan Karate?
*: I could choose to talk about both, or one or the other

Moreover, when referencing Okinawan Karate, should I refer to a specific style such as Shito-Ryu?


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## JR 137 (Jun 13, 2019)

Patrick McCarthy is THE authority on karate and other MA history. His book Bubishi should be a very good reference.


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## Ivan (Jun 13, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Patrick McCarthy is THE authority on karate and other MA history. His book Bubishi should be a very good reference.


Thanks very much, I will take a look for sure.


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## Buka (Jun 13, 2019)

I did the same thing in college on Okinawan karate. I hope you have as much fun as I did.


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## Ivan (Jun 13, 2019)

Buka said:


> I did the same thing in college on Okinawan karate. I hope you have as much fun as I did.


So you ain't gonna help?


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## Buka (Jun 13, 2019)

Ivan said:


> So you ain't gonna help?



It would be my pleasure. 

Here's a few things to think about. You probably know more about the subject matter than the person you are writing for, so that's a good thing.

You might want to start with all the books by, and about, Gichin Funakoshi. And even if you get conflicting information, you could always use that to your advantage. You could use the old "_There seems to be conflicting historical references concerning the history of Okinawan Karate, but perhaps that should be expected considering the history of Okinawa itself."_ And then go on a long rant about Okinawa and how it fit into the world back in the times of Funakoshi.

When doing that, should you choose to, if you come across anything that you have trouble understanding, use that to your advantage. Tell the reader exactly that, and why it isn't clear to you. 

Consider getting any of the books by George Mattson.....George Mattson (martial artist) - Wikipedia.

His books were written in the nineteen sixties, and give a good example of an occidental studying something in the Orient that wasn't readily understood by people of the West. Mattson has been around a long time, and has become a well know man of the Arts. It will also give a good contrast to the "books Funakoshi."




 

Mattson, top row, second from left. Heck, one could probably write an EPQ on that photo alone.

I think the most important thing to do is have fun with this project. Let your love for the subject matter shine through. Be less authoritative in writing than you might be, and more passionate of subject matter. Readers love that. Teachers do to.

Go have some fun, Ivan. Rock it, bro!


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## Ivan (Jun 14, 2019)

Buka said:


> It would be my pleasure.
> 
> Here's a few things to think about. You probably know more about the subject matter than the person you are writing for, so that's a good thing.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much, this information has been extremely helpful. I think I want to specifcally concentrate on Gichin Funakoshi and the way that Kung Fu influenced the foundation of karate. In this case, what do you think would be the best way to phrase my question for the EPQ?


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## Buka (Jun 14, 2019)

I don't know. Maybe you could ask how an Island nation, approximately one fifth the size of Warwickshire, developed so many different styles of Martial Arts.

And then proceed to tell them.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 14, 2019)

Buka, 
I always loved that pic but it makes George look tiny and Trias look like a giant. Lol


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 14, 2019)

Ivan said:


> Thank you very much, this information has been extremely helpful. I think I want to specifcally concentrate on Gichin Funakoshi and the way that Kung Fu influenced the foundation of karate. In this case, what do you think would be the best way to phrase my question for the EPQ?


I think it will be very difficult to make links from Funakoshi to the Chinese arts. Be very careful not to confuse the Shorin styles and the Naha Te styles. They have totally different histories.


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## Buka (Jun 14, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> Buka,
> I always loved that pic but it makes George look tiny and Trias look like a giant. Lol



I know, right?

You know, that might very well be my favorite martial photo of all time. Just blows my mind.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 15, 2019)

I think the answer you're looking for is...... Korea.


(I had to.. I had toooooooooo!!!)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I think the answer you're looking for is...... Korea.
> 
> 
> (I had to.. I had toooooooooo!!!)


Nice. That'll confuse the hell outta anyone who comes along later, if they didn't run into those threads.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Nice. That'll confuse the hell outta anyone who comes along later, if they didn't run into those threads.


Yeah true, I was initially gonna preface it with it's an inside joke from previous threads haha..


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## Orion Nebula (Jun 16, 2019)

I don't have much advice for you other than don't use Wikipedia  

I did my senior project back in high school on karate as well. We had the option of doing a research paper, or doing some activity and writing a reflective paper and giving a presentation on it. I did the latter. I don't remember much about what I wrote but I do remember showing a video of myself doing a basic kata as part of my presentation.

A committee evaluated my project, and one of my committee members was an English teacher who also ran a TSD school. After I concluded my presentation, his first question was "why didn't you join my school?" My answer: "your website wasn't very good." Which was sort of true, but the main reason was his prices were too high.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 16, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think it will be very difficult to make links from Funakoshi to the Chinese arts. Be very careful not to confuse the Shorin styles and the Naha Te styles. They have totally different histories.


If ivan does want to make an okinawan/china link, this thread might give him somewhere to start. Pan Gai Noon -  dead martial art?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> If ivan does want to make an okinawan/china link, this thread might give him somewhere to start. Pan Gai Noon -  dead martial art?


there is a lot of information about Uechi,& Goju since these are relatively newer to the Island.  the older arts are much harder to get defined history on.  there is another art on the island called Kojo Ryu which also is Chinese with a direct lineage. its not very well known since it has been mostly passed down within the family.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 16, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a lot of information about Uechi,& Goju since these are relatively newer to the Island.  the older arts are much harder to get defined history on.  there is another art on the island called Kojo Ryu which also is Chinese with a direct lineage. its not very well known since it has been mostly passed down within the family.


Yeah, it would be much tougher finding info on shotokan than uechi ryu in that regard.

Ive never heard of kojo ryu, going to go look it up now!


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## punisher73 (Jun 18, 2019)

Unfortunately, during the battle of the Pacific in WW2, most of any written records were lost during the bombing of Okinawa.  Much of what we know is based on oral history passed on in regards to the earliest years.

There were 36 clans/families sent from China to Okinawa to help starting in 1392.  The number "36" is symbolic and it is really unknown if that number was picked due to it symbolism and there were more/less sent, or if that number was specifically sent due to it significance.  Either way, it is one of the earliest documented places where China and Okinawa had open relationships.  From there, you get into oral tradition, that can't be confirmed about certain okinawan katas.  Wansu, Chinto and Kusanku are all thought to be either created by, or created from teachings from Chinese kung fu practitioners that were on Okinawa.  

There were 3 main cities in Okinawa that gave birth to "karate"  Shuri, Naha and Tomari.  They were known by the city and "te" meaning "hand".  So, Shuri-te later became styles like Shorin-Ryu and Naha-te later became styles like Goju-Ryu.  Tomari-te no longer exists as an independent style and is believed to have been incorporated into the Shuri based styles. 

Naha-Te styles originate mainly from Kanryo Higoanna who went to China himself and studied a type of karate/kung fu while there.  There are many theories on what he learned and who his teacher was.  Kanryo had two main offshoots from his karate.  To'on-Ryu and Goju-Ryu, both have the main four katas (seisan, sanchin, sanseiru and suparenpei) but differ on the other katas.  One theory is that Chojun Miyagi did not learn all of Goju-Ryu's katas from Kanryo but created the others himself based on what he had learned, the other theory being that Kanryu taught him the "secret katas" that he shared with no one else.  The other main style of Naha-Te is Uechi-Ryu.  Kanbun Uechi also went to southern China and learned kung fu and brought it back to Okinawa.  It was taught exactly how he learned it in China without changes when he taught in Okinawa.  Uechi had seisan, sanchin and sanseiru but not suparenpei, there is dispute among people if he didn't learn the 4th kata or if what he studied did not include it.  Kanei Uechi, changed what his father taught as karate spread and modified it to a more japanese approach and it was during this time the other kata were created.

Shuri-Te styles go back further and seem to be based on chinese kung fu that was brought to Okinawa and was combined with their own indigenous art(s).  The main Shuri style today is Shorin-Ryu (Funakoshi was a student of this lineage in his creation of Shotokan).  Sakugawa is the main person who was responsible for the "importing" of karate to Shuri.  His student was Matsumura and then Itosu.  Itosu was one of the first who wanted karate to be widespread and taught to everyone.  He went on record stating that he altered the katas to make them safe for school children.  Itosu also created the Pinan forms based on older kata.  Itosu penned the "10 Precepts" and states that karate did not come from Confucianism or Buddhism.  

There are other karate masters who were very important in its development, but this is kind of a quick overview.


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## spidersam (Jun 18, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I am doing an EPQ (Extended Project Qualification) in the UK, and I have chosen to write a dissertation on the origins of Okinawan Karate, and I was hoping that different history experts could assist me in doing so. For starters, I need to find some good sources, that can be cross-referenced to each other. So far, I have found a book called the Journal of Asian Martial Arts which provides some understanding on the impact of immigration on Karate. I have also managed to find this website:
> HISTORY OF OKINAWA KARATE
> However, I need more sources and I was hoping someone on here could provide me with something trustworthy?
> 
> ...



This sounds awesome. I don’t study karate, so I’d be no help, but I’d love if you shared it with MT when it’s done. I’d like to read it.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 18, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> Unfortunately, during the battle of the Pacific in WW2, most of any written records were lost during the bombing of Okinawa.  Much of what we know is based on oral history passed on in regards to the earliest years.
> 
> There were 36 clans/families sent from China to Okinawa to help starting in 1392.  The number "36" is symbolic and it is really unknown if that number was picked due to it symbolism and there were more/less sent, or if that number was specifically sent due to it significance.  Either way, it is one of the earliest documented places where China and Okinawa had open relationships.  From there, you get into oral tradition, that can't be confirmed about certain okinawan katas.  Wansu, Chinto and Kusanku are all thought to be either created by, or created from teachings from Chinese kung fu practitioners that were on Okinawa.
> 
> ...


Pretty good synopses.
The only hick up is that to my knowledge Kanbun Uechi didn't bring his art to Okinawa, he taught in china and on the main land Japan. It was his son and his student who returned to Okinawa. Kanbun from what I understand taught Chinese kung fu, using the Chinese language and the full curriculum including herbs and medicines.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 18, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> Pretty good synopses.
> The only hick up is that to my knowledge Kanbun Uechi didn't bring his art to Okinawa, he taught in china and on the main land Japan. It was his son and his student who returned to Okinawa. Kanbun from what I understand taught Chinese kung fu, using the Chinese language and the full curriculum including herbs and medicines.


Any idea what system it was?  And is Uechi-Ryu still the one-and-the-same as that Chinese system?


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## JR 137 (Jun 18, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Any idea what system it was?  And is Uechi-Ryu still the one-and-the-same as that Chinese system?


From what I’ve read/understand, it was called Pangai noon. No one really knows what that translates as, even in Chinese languages.

Uechi Ryu has been changed since Uechi Kanbun taught it. Several kata have been added by the subsequent inheritors of the system. I believe all of them have been his children and their children. 

Also I was told that no one knew who Uechi Kanbun learned from for quite some time. Patrick McCarthy gives a history in his Bubishi translation, which I believe has been accepted and/or confirmed by the Uechi family. 

I’m not a Uechi Ryu expert, so I’m sure someone with more knowledge of it could correct any errors here.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 18, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> From what I’ve read/understand, it was called Pangai noon. No one really knows what that translates as, even in Chinese languages.
> 
> Uechi Ryu has been changed since Uechi Kanbun taught it. Several kata have been added by the subsequent inheritors of the system. I believe all of them have been his children and their children.
> 
> ...


From what i read back when i researched it, the original translation of pangai noon, was something along the lines of "the hard and soft" style, and it came from a now-unused dialect, but i absolutely should not be quoted on that.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 19, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> Unfortunately, during the battle of the Pacific in WW2, most of any written records were lost during the bombing of Okinawa.  Much of what we know is based on oral history passed on in regards to the earliest years.
> 
> There were 36 clans/families sent from China to Okinawa to help starting in 1392.  The number "36" is symbolic and it is really unknown if that number was picked due to it symbolism and there were more/less sent, or if that number was specifically sent due to it significance.  Either way, it is one of the earliest documented places where China and Okinawa had open relationships.  From there, you get into oral tradition, that can't be confirmed about certain okinawan katas.  Wansu, Chinto and Kusanku are all thought to be either created by, or created from teachings from Chinese kung fu practitioners that were on Okinawa.
> 
> ...



Very good overview.  It's sad that so much history was lost in the war.  Oral tradition and scraps of written history are further complicated due to the fact that, especially after the time of Matsumura and Higoanna, there was so much "cross-pollination" between the Masters of late 1800's Okinawa. It was a small community and there was a lot of interaction between that generation of instructors. And that even in the time of Matsumura and Higoanna their training was not only from Okinawa, but also China; true for many of their students as well.  So it's difficult to get a precise lineage tree (but a little mystery is not a bad thing.) 

My reading is that Kanryo studied with a Chinese, popularly known as Ryu Ryu Ko and with Arikake Seisho.  And Sakugawa came from the Chatan Yara and Ku San Ku line.  Another complication is that people went by multiple names in the old days - not just having a Chinese name and an Okinawan name, but aside from that, they would take on new names, themselves!  But we know enough of the history of Karate to appreciate the tradition and, as martial artists, strive to be good stewards of our heritage.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 19, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think it will be very difficult to make links from Funakoshi to the Chinese arts. Be very careful not to confuse the Shorin styles and the Naha Te styles. They have totally different histories.



Funakoshi Gichin was often called "The father of modern karate."  I suppose that's true if you define "modern" as the simplified, watered down version he introduced to the public schools, along with Itosu.  Itosu had both Naha and Shuri-te influences and probably had a bigger impact on Okinawan karate than Funakoshi.  One part of me regrets the sanitization and popularization; the other part realizes that without their efforts, most of us would not be martial artists.


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## Ivan (Jun 19, 2019)

spidersam said:


> This sounds awesome. I don’t study karate, so I’d be no help, but I’d love if you shared it with MT when it’s done. I’d like to read it.


I certainly will do. I have been working on my introduction. When it's done, I'll post it.


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## Ivan (Jun 19, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> Unfortunately, during the battle of the Pacific in WW2, most of any written records were lost during the bombing of Okinawa.  Much of what we know is based on oral history passed on in regards to the earliest years.
> 
> There were 36 clans/families sent from China to Okinawa to help starting in 1392.  The number "36" is symbolic and it is really unknown if that number was picked due to it symbolism and there were more/less sent, or if that number was specifically sent due to it significance.  Either way, it is one of the earliest documented places where China and Okinawa had open relationships.  From there, you get into oral tradition, that can't be confirmed about certain okinawan katas.  Wansu, Chinto and Kusanku are all thought to be either created by, or created from teachings from Chinese kung fu practitioners that were on Okinawa.
> 
> ...


This is really good and useful information. Do you have any sources for this which I can cite? Would you also be willing to start a private messaging conversation? Thanks very much.


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## DaveB (Jun 19, 2019)

Scouting out the historical course of Karate, by Henning Wittwer (i think he has others too).

Weaponless Warriors by Richard Kim (less history more folk tales)

Shotokan's Secret, cant remember who by...

There are a million other good books, but the information is scattered in a line here or a paragraph there.


See if you can find anything online from the Shoto Research Society International. They had done a lot of research in the early 2000s and have a few articles knocking around the net.

Avoid Harry Cook's book. We don't give money to paedophiles.


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## punisher73 (Jun 19, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> Pretty good synopses.
> The only hick up is that to my knowledge Kanbun Uechi didn't bring his art to Okinawa, he taught in china and on the main land Japan. It was his son and his student who returned to Okinawa. Kanbun from what I understand taught Chinese kung fu, using the Chinese language and the full curriculum including herbs and medicines.



Good point, in my head I knew he taught in Japan for a time but thought he had returned to Okinawa at a later time.  I forgot that students like Toyama Sensei learned it in Japan and then returned to Okinawa where the taught.  Toyama Sensei kept the art as Kanbun taught it and did not make the changes that Kanei did.


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## punisher73 (Jun 19, 2019)

DaveB said:


> Scouting out the historical course of Karate, by Henning Wittwer (i think he has others too).
> 
> Weaponless Warriors by Richard Kim (less history more folk tales)
> 
> ...



Harry Cook's book is probably one of the more accurate and researched books on Shotokan, but agree with you on him as a person.

I would avoid Shotokan's Secret as a reference book.  It is very good from a "what if" perspective on his theory, but nothing can be proven about the changes in the katas that became Shotokan.


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## punisher73 (Jun 19, 2019)

Ivan said:


> This is really good and useful information. Do you have any sources for this which I can cite? Would you also be willing to start a private messaging conversation? Thanks very much.



I will track down some specific sources to help you.  Lots of just reading things from all over the place and seeing what people agree with and what others don't.  Also, many times "creation" stories of the arts were done to make things older than they were (Confucian influence of old is better).  Also, stories were exaggerated, not to lie but to inspire students to try and achieve more.

As someone else pointed out, Okinawa was not a large island and the three cities were within walking distance of each other and there was alot of contact between them.  Also, until after WW2 there weren't style names and set styles.  People trained with each other and exchanged ideas.  After the war, it became profitable to teach and make a "brand" for yourself on what you taught.  For example, there was a meeting of the main masters in Okinawa and discussed changing the meaning of the word "kara-te" from "China hand" to "empty hand" in the mid 1930's.


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## DaveB (Jun 19, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> Harry Cook's book is probably one of the more accurate and researched books on Shotokan, but agree with you on him as a person.
> 
> I would avoid Shotokan's Secret as a reference book.  It is very good from a "what if" perspective on his theory, but nothing can be proven about the changes in the katas that became Shotokan.


True, but it's history is pretty good from what I remember.


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## Buka (Jun 19, 2019)

I reached out to an old Uechi buddy from back in the day. He referred me to the Okinawan Prefectural Board of Education.

Organization Chart / Official Website of Okinawa Prefecture

I looked around in there and there seems to be some stuff that might help you. As I clicked around I found some martial references that might help as well.

Kanbun Uechi | Revolvy

At the very least, it's Okininwa government today. Should add some weight to your paper.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 19, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I certainly will do. I have been working on my introduction. When it's done, I'll post it.


When you post it, let us know if you want fact-checking, grammar/editing, or neither. If you don't specifically say you dont want them, youll probably end up with both


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 20, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Any idea what system it was?  And is Uechi-Ryu still the one-and-the-same as that Chinese system?


my opinion is that the original Chinese styles of both Uechi and Goju didnt have a name in China. its my understanding that many local arts didnt have names.  only the very common styles had names and many different variations of Fujian arts "borrow" the famous names.
this would explain why there is not a clean historical link to something like white crane.
there is no doubt in my mind that all three Naha- Te styles; Uechi, Goju and Ruei Ryu all come from the same source or parent art.  the movement "DNA" of single arm strikes followed by the double arm strikes is unique.  no other style that i have seen does the single arm strike, except one  Reverent Tiger fist.   
in my opinion the original Chinese style was its own unique style. there are facets of white crane but also tiger fist and hints of Lohan Quan.  most likely after the boxer rebellion the style died out but it is always possible that due to government "intervention" that there are still a few who know it but wouldnt speak publicly.


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## punisher73 (Jul 3, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> my opinion is that the original Chinese styles of both Uechi and Goju didnt have a name in China. its my understanding that many local arts didnt have names.  only the very common styles had names and many different variations of Fujian arts "borrow" the famous names.
> this would explain why there is not a clean historical link to something like white crane.
> there is no doubt in my mind that all three Naha- Te styles; Uechi, Goju and Ruei Ryu all come from the same source or parent art.  the movement "DNA" of single arm strikes followed by the double arm strikes is unique.  no other style that i have seen does the single arm strike, except one  Reverent Tiger fist.
> in my opinion the original Chinese style was its own unique style. there are facets of white crane but also tiger fist and hints of Lohan Quan.  most likely after the boxer rebellion the style died out but it is always possible that due to government "intervention" that there are still a few who know it but wouldnt speak publicly.



Another possible source is Ngo Cho Kuen (Five Ancestor Fist) which was also a southern art.  Here is a clip of their version of Sanchin (Sam Jian).





Even in the Okinawan arts, they didn't have names for what they did until they started to "commercialize" their art and teach for money.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 6, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> Another possible source is Ngo Cho Kuen (Five Ancestor Fist) which was also a southern art.  Here is a clip of their version of Sanchin (Sam Jian).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Five ancestor fist, an ancestor? no.  an influence on Miyagi Sanchin, possible.
ive seen this clip and maybe 100 other versions of sanchin.  my thoughts are that most versions of Chinese sanchin start with the double strikes, just like this clip.  they often do a few steps forward and a few steps backward. then end with some elaborated moves.  the Okinawan sanchin versions do not share these traits.  Okinawan sanchin does single arm strikes as a primary feature.  Miyagi's teacher Kanryo Higaonna (from what i understand) did not do backward steps but his sanchin looked like the uechi version which has a turn more forward steps and another turn.  When Miyagi went to China he studied sanchin there and upon his return he taught his students to close the fists and to do the backward stepping.  its possible that this was inspired by the five ancestor fist but i dont think anyone knows for sure. also none of the Okinawan sanchin versions do any kind of elaborated ending.  they all follow the progression of single arm strikes, 3 double arm strikes and the signature circle with double palm stikes (goju calls this move tora guchi) and it ends there.  no elbows, no side punches, nothing.
i do believe that martial arts evolve and change over time but looking at the time frames of the Okinawan arts and the Chinese styles. the evolution of kata is much slower than the time frames we know about these arts. i dont believe that the five ancestor fist or any other commonly known sanchin could have changed to what we see in Okinawa in such a short time frame due to normal deviations as the form is passed from one generation to the next.
this is why i believe that the form we know in Okinawa must have evolved in China over a long period of time, was passed to the founders of the Okinawan arts then possibly died out on the main land.


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## JR 137 (Jul 6, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> Five ancestor fist, an ancestor? no.  an influence on Miyagi Sanchin, possible.
> ive seen this clip and maybe 100 other versions of sanchin.  my thoughts are that most versions of Chinese sanchin start with the double strikes, just like this clip.  they often do a few steps forward and a few steps backward. then end with some elaborated moves.  the Okinawan sanchin versions do not share these traits.  Okinawan sanchin does single arm strikes as a primary feature.  Miyagi's teacher Kanryo Higaonna (from what i understand) did not do backward steps but his sanchin looked like the uechi version which has a turn more forward steps and another turn.  When Miyagi went to China he studied sanchin there and upon his return he taught his students to close the fists and to do the backward stepping.  its possible that this was inspired by the five ancestor fist but i dont think anyone knows for sure. also none of the Okinawan sanchin versions do any kind of elaborated ending.  they all follow the progression of single arm strikes, 3 double arm strikes and the signature circle with double palm stikes (goju calls this move tora guchi) and it ends there.  no elbows, no side punches, nothing.
> i do believe that martial arts evolve and change over time but looking at the time frames of the Okinawan arts and the Chinese styles. the evolution of kata is much slower than the time frames we know about these arts. i dont believe that the five ancestor fist or any other commonly known sanchin could have changed to what we see in Okinawa in such a short time frame due to normal deviations as the form is passed from one generation to the next.
> this is why i believe that the form we know in Okinawa must have evolved in China over a long period of time, was passed to the founders of the Okinawan arts then possibly died out on the main land.


Miyagi was known to change kata to suit the individual rather than teach everyone the same exact way. He allegedly taught Sanchin open handed and close handed, and with and without turns.

I think earlier on he taught it open handed, then taught everyone close handed later on. I also think he standardized things more later on. There are Miyagi lineages who do turns and other lineages that don’t. I think they’re all close handed at this point though.


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## punisher73 (Jul 8, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> Five ancestor fist, an ancestor? no.  an influence on Miyagi Sanchin, possible.
> ive seen this clip and maybe 100 other versions of sanchin.  my thoughts are that most versions of Chinese sanchin start with the double strikes, just like this clip.  they often do a few steps forward and a few steps backward. then end with some elaborated moves.  the Okinawan sanchin versions do not share these traits.  Okinawan sanchin does single arm strikes as a primary feature.  Miyagi's teacher Kanryo Higaonna (from what i understand) did not do backward steps but his sanchin looked like the uechi version which has a turn more forward steps and another turn.  When Miyagi went to China he studied sanchin there and upon his return he taught his students to close the fists and to do the backward stepping.  its possible that this was inspired by the five ancestor fist but i dont think anyone knows for sure. also none of the Okinawan sanchin versions do any kind of elaborated ending.  they all follow the progression of single arm strikes, 3 double arm strikes and the signature circle with double palm stikes (goju calls this move tora guchi) and it ends there.  no elbows, no side punches, nothing.
> i do believe that martial arts evolve and change over time but looking at the time frames of the Okinawan arts and the Chinese styles. the evolution of kata is much slower than the time frames we know about these arts. i dont believe that the five ancestor fist or any other commonly known sanchin could have changed to what we see in Okinawa in such a short time frame due to normal deviations as the form is passed from one generation to the next.
> this is why i believe that the form we know in Okinawa must have evolved in China over a long period of time, was passed to the founders of the Okinawan arts then possibly died out on the main land.



I should have been more clear.  Possible "influence", not source.  There are NO kung fu styles in existence today that match Okinawan karate. NONE, there have been several trips to China and no one has come up with any katas/forms that match as a direct translation.  This is why it is felt that whatever Higaonna and Uechi learned was a combination of things and no set style.

In regards to Sanchin, it used to be used as a floor exercise.  It didn't matter if you started on the left or the right side and you would just continue to walk up the floor, turn and go back the other way.  Both Higaonna and Uechi taught it very similar from how it is described in sources.  Miyagi did close the fists and changed the breathing pattern in the kata.  Also, Miyagi removed the turns and added the backwards steps because there wasn't the opportunity for students to practice moving backwards, but plenty of turn in other kata.  

I am not sure what you mean by the elaborate ending in the Ngo Cho Kuen Sanchin.  Just having the elbow strikes and punches?


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 8, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> I should have been more clear.  Possible "influence", not source.  There are NO kung fu styles in existence today that match Okinawan karate. NONE, there have been several trips to China and no one has come up with any katas/forms that match as a direct translation.  This is why it is felt that whatever Higaonna and Uechi learned was a combination of things and no set style.
> 
> In regards to Sanchin, it used to be used as a floor exercise.  It didn't matter if you started on the left or the right side and you would just continue to walk up the floor, turn and go back the other way.  Both Higaonna and Uechi taught it very similar from how it is described in sources.  Miyagi did close the fists and changed the breathing pattern in the kata.  Also, Miyagi removed the turns and added the backwards steps because there wasn't the opportunity for students to practice moving backwards, but plenty of turn in other kata.
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by the elaborate ending in the Ngo Cho Kuen Sanchin.  Just having the elbow strikes and punches?


I agree with most of what you said, I just have a slight different take on it.  Is okinawan Sanchin a combination of a few styles?  It's a good possibility however Kanbun stated many times that he did not change anything from the way he was taught. He was adamant about passing on the art exactly the way he was taught. Now if I combine that fact with the fact that two other arts from a different source look dam near identical, I would have to say the mash up would be from the Chinese not the Okinawans.
When I eluded to "elaborated ending"  I am referring to the differences between the Okinawan sanchin and the multiple versions of Chinese sanchin forms.  All three okinawan versions do single arm thrusts, 3 double arm thrusts and Tora guchi. While most Chinese forms don't stop there. Usually there are more blocks, strikes and other moves that I have no idea what they are..lol... then end with the Tora guchi. These extra moves tend to be done with less dynamic tension and at a different tempo. And I find it interesting that every different school has different moves but maintain the foundation of the double thrust strikes.
As far as Miyagi doing backward stepping, yeah the official story is the he invented the backward stepping in order to have students develop those muscles ...yatta yatta yatta.  But since it is almost universal within the Chinese versions I think it's more like he saw it while in China and decided to adopt the practice. He could have also learned it from Kanryo but then one would have to ask, why he didn't teach it sooner.  This is just my take on it and I'm open to new interpretations if the facts lead in that direction.


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## punisher73 (Jul 9, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> I agree with most of what you said, I just have a slight different take on it.  Is okinawan Sanchin a combination of a few styles?  It's a good possibility however Kanbun stated many times that he did not change anything from the way he was taught. He was adamant about passing on the art exactly the way he was taught. Now if I combine that fact with the fact that two other arts from a different source look dam near identical, I would have to say the mash up would be from the Chinese not the Okinawans.
> When I eluded to "elaborated ending"  I am referring to the differences between the Okinawan sanchin and the multiple versions of Chinese sanchin forms.  All three okinawan versions do single arm thrusts, 3 double arm thrusts and Tora guchi. While most Chinese forms don't stop there. Usually there are more blocks, strikes and other moves that I have no idea what they are..lol... then end with the Tora guchi. These extra moves tend to be done with less dynamic tension and at a different tempo. And I find it interesting that every different school has different moves but maintain the foundation of the double thrust strikes.
> As far as Miyagi doing backward stepping, yeah the official story is the he invented the backward stepping in order to have students develop those muscles ...yatta yatta yatta.  But since it is almost universal within the Chinese versions I think it's more like he saw it while in China and decided to adopt the practice. He could have also learned it from Kanryo but then one would have to ask, why he didn't teach it sooner.  This is just my take on it and I'm open to new interpretations if the facts lead in that direction.



I am in agreement that what was learned in China was a combination of things for Kanbun and Kanryo and not a set style.  I think it is why there is no "parent style" that can be traced in China and no names given by either as to what was actually learned.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> I am in agreement that what was learned in China was a combination of things for Kanbun and Kanryo and not a set style.  I think it is why there is no "parent style" that can be traced in China and no names given by either as to what was actually learned.


It sounds (to my otherwise uninformed mind) like there was a style/system - as we might define it today - but it either didn't have a separate name (some guy just teaching what he knew) or that name was lost. But that might be the same thing you're saying, just in different words.


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## punisher73 (Jul 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It sounds (to my otherwise uninformed mind) like there was a style/system - as we might define it today - but it either didn't have a separate name (some guy just teaching what he knew) or that name was lost. But that might be the same thing you're saying, just in different words.



I would agree with that. Any discussion about Higaonna and Uechi has always been in terms of the "parts" of the styles they learned, but with the same base 3 kata: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu (speculation on if Uechi left before learning the 4th kata, Suparenpei, that Goju has or if what he learned didn't have it in the system) I think that the "parts" were systematized in a set learning approach.  That is the big question though.  Kanbun Uechi's certificate was for "Pangai Noon" which is half hard, half soft and Miyagi named what Higaonna learned "Goju" meaning Hard/Soft.  I don't think it was a coincidence.  Higaonna was illiterate so there were no written records left by him, and Uechi didn't say anything else about what he learned as to if it had a formal name or not.  I think another key piece overlooked is Juhatsu, founder of To'on Ryu.  He was Higaonna's other top student and has the "big 4" of Goju-Ryu, but doesn't have the other 8 kata that Goju-Ryu does which leads to speculation that the additional kata were NOT a part of what HIgaonna learned in China, but could have been creations of Miyagi.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 10, 2019)

I once asked Ryuko Tomoyose about the similarities between uechi and goju. (While he was a Uechi 10th dan I believe he also studied goju when he was younger)  his reply was that in China uechi was known as pangainoon and goju was known as Kingainoon.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> I once asked Ryuko Tomoyose about the similarities between uechi and goju. (While he was a Uechi 10th dan I believe he also studied goju when he was younger)  his reply was that in China uechi was known as pangainoon and goju was known as Kingainoon.


Any idea what those terms mean?


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## Gaucho (Jul 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> View attachment 22288



Yes, that's a great old photograph.  Front row, second from the left: a young Bruce Lee.  Back row, third from the left, me.
.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 10, 2019)

Gaucho said:


> Yes, that's a great old photograph.  Front row, second from the left: a young Bruce Lee.  Back row, third from the left, me.
> .


Back row, 3rd from the left is Ed Parker.  Front row on the right looks like Jhoon Rhee.  Back row on right looks like Robert Trias.


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## Buka (Jul 11, 2019)

Back Row, Allen Steen, George Mattson, Ed Parker, Tsutomu Ohshima, Robert Trias, front row, Pat Burleson, Bruce Lee, Anthony Mirakian, Jhoon Rhee.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 11, 2019)

Buka said:


> View attachment 22342
> 
> Back Row, Allen Steen, George Mattson, Ed Parker, Tsutomu Ohshima, Robert Trias, front row, Pat Burleson, Bruce Lee, Anthony Mirakian, Jhoon Rhee.


I know I might have told this story before but my ex ( who was a Uechi black belt, but not very knowledgeable about MA in general.  Came home from work one day saying that there was this guy at her work in another department  who says he does karate too. He says he's like a 10 dan or something ppfffttt.  She didn't belive him. She handed me his business card that says 
Anthony Mirakian, 10th dan Miebukan USA.  I almost pooped myself.


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