# Which training type has the most injuries?



## cfr (Jan 15, 2015)

Greetings. If you were to look at MMA, which type of training do you think generates the most injuries. Lets say the types are wrestling, striking, and ground work. Also note that I'm really curious about injuries during training, not actual fights.

Thanks!


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

To know for sure a study would have to be done.  Otherwise we are just speculating.  I don't do mma so take it with a grain of salt.  The injuries we see in Hapkido are usually the accidental kind like catching a finger in the eye during a two person drill.  That sort of thing.  It's one reason I am fairly zealous about my students keeping their fingernails trimmed.  I would guess competiive environments like boxing, wrestling, and mma see many more injuries than structured traditional martial arts.


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## cfr (Jan 15, 2015)

Thanks. Not expecting a study, just a best guess based on experience.


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## Danny T (Jan 15, 2015)

I believe it is more about 'how' one trains vs what one trains.
We have a strong MMA program at my school with several fighters who have done very well. 
Number of training injuries have been very small within our training. Have had more injuries when they have gone to other gyms to train with others (which I feel is important) because of that gyms methods.
Training is about learning not fighting, practice is about repetition, skill development, and attribute development. Sparring is about learning and should be specific to what one has been developing and not just trying to knock the other guy out. That is what the fight is for.

Take a look at the individual training aspects solely. Boxing, Muay Thai, TKD or whatever in the striking department. Not a lot of injuries within the training. Some yes but not a lot. Same with wrestling, judo, and BJJ. 

It's all about how one trains and practices.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Number of training injuries have been very small within our training.



Same here, the injuries we've seen are usually small accidental ones such as toes catching perhaps on the mats, fingers being bent 'backwards', noses being caught, kicks catching hips or elbows etc nothing really that would cause more than a bruise. A nose which had been previously broken can break again if caught. We've had two lads dislocate shoulders, one was a complete freak, he went to throw a punch which missed and his shoulder went out, the other had a history of shoulder dislocations so it wasn't a surprise it came out again, he wasn't too bothered as it meant that he could finally have an op to get it fixed. We've had broken toes and fingers which I've also seen when I did karate, my toes have mostly been broken and a couple of fingers.  We have no more injuries than I've seen in any other type of martial art. What I did see when doing a traditional style is the 'belt in the eye' accident!
When training it is as Danny T says, we train to learn not to fight, we don't 'fight' in the gym.


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## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

cfr said:


> Greetings. If you were to look at MMA, which type of training do you think generates the most injuries. Lets say the types are wrestling, striking, and ground work. Also note that I'm really curious about injuries during training, not actual fights.
> 
> Thanks!



Most injuries is probably, pure WRESTLING. #2 would be MMA.  #3 pure Boxing or BJJ.   #4 Muay Thai.

Pure Wrestlers who compete, are just beastly with their training. The reason I chose MMA next, even though it can and usually does include Wrestling, is because there are many aspects of it, such as striking, that you have to start people out slowly and not let them KO each other with little gloves on and break noses = lose tuition paying students.  While in Wrestling, you just focus, balls out, on one aspect.

Then Boxing next because a Boxing gym gets you sparring the quickest, and with headgear, people going 100% power the first time out, is rarely discouraged. The Boxing environment is generally, just rougher than TMA and even MMA gyms. And again, Boxing focuses on one aspect of fighting, so you can start sparring hard much quicker.

BJJ, while it can be very subtle and flowing, is also very taxing on the body. Most serious injuries such as ACL reconstructions are due to BJJ Competition Team training that I've seen.  But even if you don't compete, BJJ spars every class for 30-45 minutes and it's not joke what it does to your body. Most older guys will start hurting in the lower back.

And you'd think Muay Thai would be higher on the list, but it's actually safer than Boxing. It takes quite a while before you start sparring full Muay Thai because there are many aspects to learn. The MT clinch is a science by itself. And even then, elbows and knee strikes are very controlled.  You're much more likely to get a concussion from sparring after the 1st 6 months in Boxing than you would in MT or MMA.

Another thing is that, I've seen Martial Art insurance carriers who specifically states that they don't cover Wrestling nor Boxing gyms while MMA and everything else, are listed as acceptable. I'm pretty sure that they base such on their claims/risk assessment.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Wrestling probably. Just because of the combined body weigh and falling leads to unpreventable risk a bit.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Most injuries is probably, pure WRESTLING. #2 would be MMA.  #3 pure Boxing or BJJ.   #4 Muay Thai.


|
Seems like MMA gets a lot of injuries....   Why I don't do full contact fighting....


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2015)

This is a tough question. A real good question, though. Gotta' think on this a while.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> *Seems like MMA gets a lot of injuries....*   Why I don't do full contact fighting....




Actually they don't, it's just  'tough guy' talk. Like saying that an MMA fight is a 'fight to the death', that's just bollocks. MMA fighters can't afford to get injured in training, it would mean they were never available to fight wouldn't it. In the actual fights we've proved that MMA carries far less risk of injuries and serious injuries at that than many other sports. I've been in MMA for a very long time and the actual injuries I've seen are minimal, a freak leg break, black eyes, certainly a couple of broken noses, sprains and strains certainly. We had one dislocated shoulder from BJJ and one from traditional martial arts in training.
Some people like to 'big up' MMA to make it sound like it's for the hard men only but it's not. It's actually very professionally run or at least it should be and injuries are kept to a minimum.  Pro fighters as I said can't afford to get injured and amateur fighters have jobs/careers to protect.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Actually they don't, it's just  'tough guy' talk. Like saying that an MMA fight is a 'fight to the death', that's just bollocks. MMA fighters can't afford to get injured in training, it would mean they were never available to fight wouldn't it. In the actual fights we've proved that MMA carries far less risk of injuries and serious injuries at that than many other sports. I've been in MMA for a very long time and the actual injuries I've seen are minimal, a freak leg break, black eyes, certainly a couple of broken noses, sprains and strains certainly. We had one dislocated shoulder from BJJ and one from traditional martial arts in training.
> Some people like to 'big up' MMA to make it sound like it's for the hard men only but it's not. It's actually very professionally run or at least it should be and injuries are kept to a minimum.  Pro fighters as I said can't afford to get injured and amateur fighters have jobs/careers to protect.


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Glad to hear you have standards.  There are some places that lack the standards, and it's good to mention how MMA can be approached correctly.  I tend to concentrate on the UFC, type competition and even with rule set, I cringe.  I mean Weidman beat the stuffing out of my hero, Lyoto Machida, at UFC 175.  Lyoto was not a happy camper @ post-fight presser.  Wonderboy almost beat Matt Brown, but Matt pretty much overcame Wonderboy's sport kararte with Matt's well rounded MMA itinerary.  Wonderboy felt that fight for some time I'm sure.
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Incidentally, I want to add that traditional karate is relatively safe, until you abandon standards.  Then, it's probably worse than MMA.  IMHO.
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Thanks for the considered reply.....


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## Andrew Green (Mar 16, 2015)

Stupidity causes the most injuries.  People refusing to tap, thinking every drill is for a title belt, letting "light" sparring matches escalate.  

This goes for any style, not just MMA.  I've seen just as much stupid crap done by traditional karate-ka as MMA fighters.  

Once you get competitive injuries are going to happen though, and that goes for all combat sports.  Yes, I've seen arms snap and conclusions in MMA, also saw them in "no-head contact" point fighting style tournaments.  

Personally I think the biggest avoidable injuries are when the rules of the sport prevent you from doing what should be the safest action due to the scoring.  For example Judo spends a lot of time learning to properly fall, mostly on their back to avoid injury on impact.  But a text-book break fall in a match will cost you the match so you get competitors doing some mid-air acrobatics to avoid landing in what should be the safest way to avoid injury.  Or in sport karate where you end up with all kinds of flashy head kicks because they score the best when the defender is severely neutralized by not allowing attacking the supporting leg which would discourage excessive use of those kicks.

MMA, when competitive will lead to injuries, but in training I think it is a lot safer then many people assume (unless you are stupid) partially because the rules and scoring don't hinder you as much when it comes to protecting yourself.  The "big" stuff such as head kicks and spinning techniques, and the big throws of Judo or 5-point wrestling throws are rare, because doing them leaves you vulnerable to things that aren't allowed in those other sports and aren't really scored much higher then a simple takedown that leaves you more likely to end up with control at the end rather then a scramble.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 16, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> Stupidity causes the most injuries.  People refusing to tap, thinking every drill is for a title belt, letting "light" sparring matches escalate.


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All valid & on point.  If you are an instructor, your students are blessed.  Quite a range of style-based knowledge.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Actually they don't, it's just  'tough guy' talk. Like saying that an MMA fight is a 'fight to the death', that's just bollocks.  .



You obviously didn't understand this.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> You obviously didn't understand this.




No, why would I? I've only been involved in MMA for well over 16 years ( many many years of martial arts before that), as coach, ref, corner, judge, promoter so why would I know anything, mate. We train pro fighters who go on into the big promotions including the UFC. I would suggest by your hectoring, macho style of posting that you think you know everything, that's fine. I'll just carry on having a Steffi Graf at your 'death match' mentality. It's the sort of thing that the 'Tap Out' brigade wear when playing MMA on their computers. 'Death match' I ask you, how infantile is that! I mentioned your comment on a UK MMA site and there were howls of laughter and the use of many words that I can't repeat on here. Anyway crack on with the tough guy comments, it's fun.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 17, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> Stupidity causes the most injuries. People refusing to tap, thinking every drill is for a title belt, letting "light" sparring matches escalate.
> 
> This goes for any style, not just MMA. I've seen just as much stupid crap done by traditional karate-ka as MMA fighters.




I think this is one of the best answers I have ever heard or seen to the OP's question


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

Any idiot can bash his way around in training leaving bodies in his wake but no coach would thank him for losing him his students/fighters. No promoter would be pleased to have fights off his card because fighters got silly injuries pre fight. No employer wants his workers turning up with black eyes or worse so they can't work. So, we train clever not like idiots.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> No, why would I? I've only been involved in MMA for well over 16 years ( many many years of martial arts before that), as coach, ref, corner, judge, promoter so why would I know anything, mate. We train pro fighters who go on into the big promotions including the UFC. I would suggest by your hectoring, macho style of posting that you think you know everything, that's fine. I'll just carry on having a Steffi Graf at your 'death match' mentality. It's the sort of thing that the 'Tap Out' brigade wear when playing MMA on their computers. 'Death match' I ask you, how infantile is that! I mentioned your comment on a UK MMA site and there were howls of laughter and the use of many words that I can't repeat on here. Anyway crack on with the tough guy comments, it's fun.



Do you run Daddy's gym and/or are his helper or something? None of this makes you a fighter and I doubt that you fought full MMA. Like I said, you didn't understand what I said that's why you're getting all excited.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Do you run Daddy's gym and/or are his helper or something? None of this makes you a fighter and I doubt that you fought full MMA. Like I said, you didn't understand what I said that's why you're getting all excited.




 Your punch em in the face machismo posting is endearing but still amusing.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Any idiot can bash his way around in training leaving bodies in his wake but no coach would thank him for losing him his students/fighters. No promoter would be pleased to have fights off his card because fighters got silly injuries pre fight. No employer wants his workers turning up with black eyes or worse so they can't work. So, we train clever not like idiots.



Not really. There is an element of hard training that incurs risk that is managed by safe training methods.

But there is risk all the same. I don't know fighters who haven't pulled injuries in training.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not really. There is an element of hard training that incurs risk that is managed by safe training methods.
> 
> But there is risk all the same. I don't know fighters who haven't pulled injuries in training.




Well of course, there's injuries in training but smart training hopefully will cut the _stupid_ injuries out or cut the stupid fighters out. 
A notable UK UFC fighter a short while before he was due to fight got a case of road rage and smashed a cars windscreen with his fist, he broke his hand, he does have anger issues lol but he had to pull out of his fight because of a 'training injury'.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well of course, there's injuries in training but smart training hopefully will cut the _stupid_ injuries out or cut the stupid fighters out.
> A notable UK UFC fighter a short while before he was due to fight got a case of road rage and smashed a cars windscreen with his fist, he broke his hand, he does have anger issues lol but he had to pull out of his fight because of a 'training injury'.



we have had one guy break his hand on a guys elbow.

one guy get knocked out and got a blood clot in his knee.

one guy in another gym tore his knee. And still fought.

I know a wrestler that had his arms broken training for a comp.

None of this was tee hee. "training" injuries. They are the risks of hard training.

And turning up to work with black eyes is just a thing here.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> we have had one guy break his hand on a guys elbow.
> 
> one guy get knocked out and got a blood clot in his knee.
> 
> ...



Military Commanding Officers tend not to like their soldiers being unfit for duty due to injuries outside their normal 'work'. Chief constables tend not to like it either so I tended to wear a bit more makeup on the days I caught a knee to the face etc. Our civvie students have to work so injuries aren't good, sick pay isn't very much.

Interestingly when the men got bruises, lumps and bumps to their faces people either laughed or assumed, rightly, that it was just training. If I did people would very carefully look away from my face though one person did take me aside and ask if I needed help, the assumption being I was being abused by a partner. However some of my bruises came from my work too, my front tooth is still stuck in with superglue after a punch I blocked with my face, didn't go down, I told the guy, who we did get, that my instructor punches me harder than he did.

Hitting/kicking elbows and hips is never good. We used to have broken toes when we had old judo mats but that stopped more or less when we got jigsaw ones.
But we manage injuries as much as we can, we train hard but smart, any idiot can train like...well, an idiot.


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2015)

Ben left some of his teeth in the cage after this, he got cleaned up and changed the went to work as a door supervisor straight after.


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## kuniggety (Mar 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Military Commanding Officers tend not to like their soldiers being unfit for duty due to injuries outside their normal 'work'.


 I haven't had any debilitating injuries due to my training but I've shown up to work with plenty of bruises, mat burn, etc visibly on me. I got asked for awhile with me saying "I train BJJ...". Eventually everyone stopped asking.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 27, 2015)

You'll probably pull a muscle while grappling or get a bruise during stand-up (striking) if your partner overdoes it. They're somewhat common, but they're not supposed to happen. Pre-fight preparation and conditioning is supposed to build you up, not leave you walking into the ring feeling sore. About 3-4 weeks before you'll probably be going all out and sweating yourself out on the mats/flooring, but in the last 1-2 weeks before they event you'll want to take it down a notch, unless fighting in a fatigued state is cool with you, which in the sport, really isn't.

Overloading muscles is common practice for conditioning training, but most coaches advocate safe training (thus avoiding unnecessary setbacks) with practices like joint mobility exercises for warm-up and active recovery, and post-training stretching to keep everything from locking up and going sore the next day. This is the standard in the sport, from Martin Rooney to Ross Enamait. Mark Hatmaker was also a big advocate of safe training. It's smart. While the chances of you getting injured in HIIT are slim, you may feel a little sore after pumping iron on the barbells (no benches, please). That's normal though, and doesn't really count as an injury.

So there. Pulled (and sometimes overly sore and fatigued) muscles from working your grapple-game or working with heavier loads for conditioning, or the occasional bruise, sore or even cut from your striking game. Part of the sport, and nothing really serious. Training for combat sport over the years has taken in a lot of science, so you get dividends on your preparation up to the fight and are more than capable of bringing the pain when you're actually there - in 100% top shape, ideally.

Qualifications for my post:
Sambo/MMA Fighter
Former Judoka


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> You'll probably pull a muscle while grappling or get a bruise during stand-up (striking) if your partner overdoes it. They're somewhat common, but they're not supposed to happen. Pre-fight preparation and conditioning is supposed to build you up, not leave you walking into the ring feeling sore. About 3-4 weeks before you'll probably be going all out and sweating yourself out on the mats/flooring, but in the last 1-2 weeks before they event you'll want to take it down a notch, unless fighting in a fatigued state is cool with you, which in the sport, really isn't.
> 
> Overloading muscles is common practice for conditioning training, but most coaches advocate safe training (thus avoiding unnecessary setbacks) with practices like joint mobility exercises for warm-up and active recovery, and post-training stretching to keep everything from locking up and going sore the next day. This is the standard in the sport, from Martin Rooney to Ross Enamait. Mark Hatmaker was also a big advocate of safe training. It's smart. While the chances of you getting injured in HIIT are slim, you may feel a little sore after pumping iron on the barbells (no benches, please). That's normal though, and doesn't really count as an injury.
> 
> ...




Nice post.   we used to have a 'thank you' function on the old site, it's gone so Thank You for this!


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## jks9199 (Mar 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Nice post.   we used to have a 'thank you' function on the old site, it's gone so Thank You for this!


The function is actually still present, and even expanded.  If you look at the lower left corner of the post, you'll see a row of buttons.  You can "Like" a post, "Agree" with it, rate it as "Funny" or "Useful" and, of course, there are some negative ones.  Unfortunately, you can only rate it through that function with one category, so you can like it or agree with it... but not both.  (It's kind of combined the old Like, Thank You and reputation systems.)


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> The function is actually still present, and even expanded.  If you look at the lower left corner of the post, you'll see a row of buttons.  You can "Like" a post, "Agree" with it, rate it as "Funny" or "Useful" and, of course, there are some negative ones.  Unfortunately, you can only rate it through that function with one category, so you can like it or agree with it... but not both.  (It's kind of combined the old Like, Thank You and reputation systems.)



I know but I liked the 'thank you' button, it's the polite Brit thing


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> in the last 1-2 weeks before they event you'll want to take it down a notch,


Agree! One should not sweat in the last 3 days before his event.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Nice post.   we used to have a 'thank you' function on the old site, it's gone so Thank You for this!


Diolch, cariad!  (Thanks, darling!)



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! One should not sweat in the last 3 days before his event.


Absolutely. Personally I just drill escapes, transitions, blocks, checks and shadow box in the last 1-3 days before a bout. For active recovery it's usually just jump-rope or running.  Definitely nothing too heavy.


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