# Which style of Karate is right for me?



## Gruenewald (Jul 21, 2010)

I come from a strong grappling background (Wrestling and Judo), and now I want to establish a strong foundation in striking. Karate is near the top of my list at the moment, however I need some help differentiating the different styles of karate there are and which of them would be most suited for my purposes. I was originally looking into Wado-Ryu Karate, which I was then informed is sometimes considered a branch of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu:



Chris Parker said:


> Due to it's origins, Wado Ryu Karate is  sometimes considered a branch of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, which is  probably what you are refering to. It features more circular movement  and a higher emphasis on grappling (locks, throws, takedowns etc) than  other karate systems.



I was looking for something that would blend nicely with the grappling techniques I know, however I'm not sure I want to go so far as to do something that's almost Jujitsu; I still plan on continuing my studies in judo throughout my time doing Karate (if it happens). Also I would rather stay away from strict, ultra-rigid styles (that emphasize kata a lot) and focus more on sparring and application. Can anybody help me?


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## Chris Parker (Jul 21, 2010)

First things first: What is available to you? Without knowing which systems are in your area, a lot of what could be said could be considered moot. I would also look to broaden your ideas in terms of karate (if that is what you are after... honestly, from your other threads, I would probably be looking more to something like kickboxing or Muay Thai. Still quite removed from self defence, but closer to what you are asking for).

You say that you want a system that is more focused on applications and sparring than kata... might I ask what you think the applications are applications of? The essence of karate is it's kata, that is the heart of the art, it's where you find what makes it karate, it's where the philosophy and movement is expressed. Sparring really isn't karate, in a real sense of the art. It's just a tool for expressing the system against another practitioner. It has definate benefits, but it's really not the art. That said, systems such as Kyokushinkai (and it's off-shoots, such as Seido and Ashihara) are known for their hard sparring, so they could work for you. Shukokai was developed by Tani Sensei to a great degree to give greater success in competition from Shito Ryu (it's full title is Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate Do). Shotokan is probably the most "traditional" in movement and formal approach out of the so-called Japanese Karate systems. Okinawan systems such as Isshin Ryu have a reputation for very hard training and conditioning, and for being more "complete" systems than their Japanese bretheren, but the focus is really going to be more on kata and application (bunkai) of such.

Hope that helps.


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## elder999 (Jul 21, 2010)

Gruenewald said:


> I was looking for something that would blend nicely with the grappling techniques I know, however I'm not sure I want to go so far as to do something that's almost Jujitsu; I still plan on continuing my studies in judo throughout my time doing Karate (if it happens). Also I would rather stay away from strict, ultra-rigid styles (that emphasize kata a lot) and focus more on sparring and application. Can anybody help me?


 

THere's wing-chun in Moncton, I thought....it's relatively easy to learn, has good striking, blends well with judo and knives, and was Bruce Lee's base system for JKD.....


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## rlp271 (Jul 22, 2010)

From what you're asking for, my first instinct is to tell you to look for a Kyokushin school or one of its offshoots as mentioned above.  Other options, a very old-school Goju-ryu school.  You will focus on kata at first, but a whole wide world of pain and conditioning opens up when you stay around long enough.  They're really big on forearm and hand conditioning.  Look up Morio Higaonna, and they have a few clips of him beating on a rock for example.  

Isshinryu is my base style, and I've got to say, you need to find a solid school if you want to do it.  Not all Isshinryu schools are created equal.  That's true of all styles, but it seems like there's a huge variation between Isshinryu schools.  There seem to be a few people on here that do it, and they might say that their school is great, which is probably true, but that isn't the majority from what I've seen.  That's really the state of Isshinryu in the US, not sure about Canada.


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> From what you're asking for, my first instinct is to tell you to look for a Kyokushin school or one of its offshoots as mentioned above. Other options, a very old-school Goju-ryu school. You will focus on kata at first, but a whole wide world of pain and conditioning opens up when you stay around long enough. They're really big on forearm and hand conditioning. *Look up Morio Higaonna, and they have a few clips of him* *beating on a rock for example.*
> 
> Isshinryu is my base style, and I've got to say, you need to find a solid school if you want to do it. Not all Isshinryu schools are created equal. That's true of all styles, but it seems like there's a huge variation between Isshinryu schools. There seem to be a few people on here that do it, and they might say that their school is great, which is probably true, but that isn't the majority from what I've seen. That's really the state of Isshinryu in the US, not sure about Canada.


 


Why? Do rocks attack people a lot?


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## Gruenewald (Jul 22, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> First things first: What is available to you? Without knowing which systems are in your area, a lot of what could be said could be considered moot. I would also look to broaden your ideas in terms of karate (if that is what you are after... honestly, from your other threads, I would probably be looking more to something like kickboxing or Muay Thai. Still quite removed from self defence, but closer to what you are asking for).


Currently I'm living in Moncton (NB, Canada) where I believe there are only a few schools, all of them "Tsuruoka", which I'm fairly sure means that it originated from Sensei Masami Tsuruoka? I know that one of them is run by a 7th dan who trained under Tsuruoka-san, the others I'm not sure about. Is that indicative of style in any way? Regardless, I'll be moving to Halifax (NS, Canada) in the fall where there will doubtless be a much wider assortment of options for me (I saw a few Kyokushin, Shotokan, a ton I've never heard of before). If I do decide to do Karate I don't doubt that I'll be able to find a good dojo somewhere in Nova Scotia.

I have been looking into Western Boxing and Muay Thai, and may do some more research on them. Sounds as though there are no good Muay Thai schools in Halifax from what I've heard, though. Bunch of boxing gyms, some Wing Chun and a lot of Karate as mentioned above.



Chris Parker said:


> You say that you want a system that is more focused on applications and sparring than kata... might I ask what you think the applications are applications of? The essence of karate is it's kata, that is the heart of the art, it's where you find what makes it karate, it's where the philosophy and movement is expressed. Sparring really isn't karate, in a real sense of the art. It's just a tool for expressing the system against another practitioner. It has definate benefits, but it's really not the art. That said, systems such as Kyokushinkai (and it's off-shoots, such as Seido and Ashihara) are known for their hard sparring, so they could work for you. Shukokai was developed by Tani Sensei to a great degree to give greater success in competition from Shito Ryu (it's full title is Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate Do). Shotokan is probably the most "traditional" in movement and formal approach out of the so-called Japanese Karate systems. Okinawan systems such as Isshin Ryu have a reputation for very hard training and conditioning, and for being more "complete" systems than their Japanese bretheren, but the focus is really going to be more on kata and application (bunkai) of such.
> 
> Hope that helps.





rlp271 said:


> From what you're asking for, my first instinct is  to tell you to look for a Kyokushin school or one of its offshoots as  mentioned above.  Other options, a very old-school Goju-ryu school.  You  will focus on kata at first, but a whole wide world of pain and  conditioning opens up when you stay around long enough.  They're really  big on forearm and hand conditioning.  Look up Morio Higaonna, and they  have a few clips of him beating on a rock for example.
> 
> Isshinryu is my base style, and I've got to say, you need to find a  solid school if you want to do it.  Not all Isshinryu schools are  created equal.  That's true of all styles, but it seems like there's a  huge variation between Isshinryu schools.  There seem to be a few people  on here that do it, and they might say that their school is great,  which is probably true, but that isn't the majority from what I've seen.   That's really the state of Isshinryu in the US, not sure about  Canada.


Thanks, very informative. I had heard that Shotokan was very "traditional" in that it was quite rigid, which is what I'm trying to avoid. As mentioned above I saw some Kyukushin dojos listed in NS, so they may serve my purposes.



elder999 said:


> There's wing-chun in Moncton, I thought....it's relatively easy to learn, has good striking, blends well with judo and knives, and was Bruce Lee's base system for JKD.....


So there is! I'd never seen it listed on any provincial directories so I figured it must not exist. Never occured to me to simply try "wing chun moncton" on Google... I have been and still am quite interested in Wing Chun, but the question is whether I should attempt to learn it here in Moncton (which I'll be leaving from in about 6 weeks) or wait until I move to Halifax where there will be a larger selection of schools to choose from. Also it may be awkward to start in Moncton then so shortly thereafter move to a different school while I'm still being taught the basics.


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## rlp271 (Jul 26, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Why? Do rocks attack people a lot?



Haha, it's a conditioning/crazy person thing.  It's a step in whatever direction you want from makiwara practice.  When I think about Higaonna a quote from Rocky IV comes to mind, "Whatever he hits, he destroys."


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## K-man (Jul 26, 2010)

Gruenewald said:


> I was looking for something that would blend nicely with the grappling techniques I know, however I'm not sure I want to go so far as to do something that's almost Jujitsu; I still plan on continuing my studies in judo throughout my time doing Karate (if it happens). Also I would rather stay away from strict, ultra-rigid styles (that emphasize kata a lot) and focus more on sparring and application. Can anybody help me?


As Chris pointed out, _application_ is based on kata and a style based on kata is not necessarily rigid. In fact, all karate is based on kata. The problem you have with karate is that most of it is sports based which means that it is practised at distance. Most schools I have seen don't do any grappling at all. My classes are probably more than 50% grappling but always with strikes, elbows, knees, footsweeps and low kicks included. That is the distance that traditional karate was designed to be used. Kata applications contain all the grappling techniques, just most people don't recognise them.  I would suggest you visit all the karate schools in your area, watch what they do and ask about their training.  In a good school it doesn't matter what the style.  If a school has a good teacher you will experience a wide range of techniques and your grappling skills will be most useful. If you pick a school with a sports focus you will still learn to punch but, IMHO, not as well as a more traditional school.


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## Omar B (Jul 26, 2010)

I could not agree more K-man.  A lot of application from kata is taught, sometimes it's taught simply as kata and left up to the student to dig deeper but all karate is based upon kata.  Those who scoff at kata simply don't understand it's aim or karate in general I think.


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## Cirdan (Jul 27, 2010)

I train both Ju Jutsu and traditional Wado Ryu myself. I find them to mesh very well since they both are based in the same principles and only differ somewhat in expression. Still, it requires some time and reflection to connect the dots.
Most karate dojos spend a lot of time on kata however, if that is not your cup of tea perhaps you should look into kickboxing.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> Haha, it's a conditioning/crazy person thing. It's a step in whatever direction you want from makiwara practice. When I think about Higaonna a quote from Rocky IV comes to mind, "Whatever he hits, he destroys."


 

Yeah but you do know Rocky is fictional right?


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## Grenadier (Jul 27, 2010)

If all you wanted was the sparring aspect, then the advice the others gave you on going with Kyokushin Kai Karate would be a safe choice.  Keep in mind, though, that even Kyokushin uses kata in their training.  

Shotokan Karate would do very well for you.  I do realize that you stated you didn't want to put an emphasis on kata, and would rather focus on the kumite aspect, but keep in mind, that kata provides you a way to practice a technique with the utmost of accuracy and perfection, and it's through the repeated practice, that the technique becomes second nature.  

Shotokan Karate is a hard, striking style.  If you have a good teacher, and if you're a willing student, then there's absolutely no reason why you can't become an excellent striker with dedicated training.  Towards the higher levels, you'll start to focus on some of the grappling aspects.  

Wado Ryu is closer to Shotokan Karate, with a blend of Ju Jutsu thrown in.  It's more of a striking system, though, than a grappling system, and would compliment your grappling skills quite nicely.


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## dancingalone (Jul 27, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> Haha, it's a conditioning/crazy person thing.  It's a step in whatever direction you want from makiwara practice.  When I think about Higaonna a quote from Rocky IV comes to mind, "Whatever he hits, he destroys."



Weapon conditioning is common in Naha karate styles.  It's a carry over from the Chinese styles they derive from.  The idea is to increase the destructive potential of your hands by hardening them against a hard surface over time.  Obviously, it's not for everyone, and you only want to do this under careful supervision from an experienced sensei, but it's part of traditional tode practice.  I don't punch rocks (did trees when I was younger) but I do condition against a makiwara.  Same idea.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Weapon conditioning is common in Naha karate styles. It's a carry over from the Chinese styles they derive from. The idea is to increase the destructive potential of your hands by hardening them against a hard surface over time. Obviously, it's not for everyone, and you only want to do this under careful supervision from an experienced sensei, but it's part of traditional tode practice. I don't punch rocks (did trees when I was younger) but I do condition against a makiwara. Same idea.


 

It's fine if you don't mind arthritis in your hands in later life.


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## dancingalone (Jul 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's fine if you don't mind arthritis in your hands in later life.



You know better than that, Tez, to overgeneralize.  My sensei has rather huge punching knuckles and he has no arthristis and he's in his sixties.  Still has a fairly successful acupuncture practice too.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You know better than that, Tez, to overgeneralize. My sensei has rather huge punching knuckles and he has no arthristis and he's in his sixties. Still has a fairly successful acupuncture practice too.


 

Are you saying sixties is old, I meant later life not middle age!


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## dancingalone (Jul 27, 2010)

Life expectancy in the US is 78.2 years.  It's around 80 years for the UK.  I would classify one's sixties as "later life".

In any case, you're still overgeneralizing about hand conditioning.  It's obviously something that should be performed only under knowledgeable supervision, but that's true of much in Okinawan karate, like tuite or practicing with kama/nunchaku or even good old sanchin kata with its forceful breath control.  If you have access to proper instruction, these things are something you can consider making a part of your life, otherwise stick to something else.


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## Grenadier (Jul 27, 2010)

For someone to simply decide to run up to a bag full of sand, and repeatedly pound his hands into the bag, without treatment, will usually result in nerve damage to the hands.  

While this might not be so evident in one's younger years, one need only take a look at older folks who had done this practice in the past.  Many of these folks can't even hold a cup of coffee without spilling it, due to tremors, shakes, etc.  

Does this mean that hand conditioning (or even bone conditioning) is bad?  Not necessarily.  It does take some research, though, as well as proper practice.  I've seen some folks who have a great deal of knowledge on these matters, and they haven't lost a single bit of dexterity throughout the years.  These are the guys who have rock-hard bones, yet are still able to perform their daily tasks with fine coordination.


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## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Life expectancy in the US is 78.2 years. It's around 80 years for the UK. I would classify one's sixties as "later life".
> 
> In any case, you're still overgeneralizing about hand conditioning. It's obviously something that should be performed only under knowledgeable supervision, but that's true of much in Okinawan karate, like tuite or practicing with kama/nunchaku or even good old sanchin kata with its forceful breath control. If you have access to proper instruction, these things are something you can consider making a part of your life, otherwise stick to something else.


 
Well, I only made the comment 'if you don't mind arthritis in later life which I don't think was actually saying you will definitely get it. It was a general comment not made totally seriously but one that may cause people to think for a moment before going out and bashing stones, trees etc willy nilly. I don't think a few words can be overgeneralising and if I want to think of myself as middle aged I certainly will whatever the life expectancy is anywhere!
I don't see the point in bashing inanimate objects myself preferring the fight clever techniques or just plain running away but if people want to do them they should make sure they aren't doing themselves any damage first.


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## dancingalone (Jul 27, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> For someone to simply decide to run up to a bag full of sand, and repeatedly pound his hands into the bag, without treatment, will usually result in nerve damage to the hands.
> 
> While this might not be so evident in one's younger years, one need only take a look at older folks who had done this practice in the past.  Many of these folks can't even hold a cup of coffee without spilling it, due to tremors, shakes, etc.



We can't make a scientific conclusion that punching sand leads to nerve damage with a proper study or trial.  All we have is anecdotal evidence that some people may have injured themselves in this way.  Which by the way, who are these people?  The only people I have heard of who have this problem are boxers, not karate-ka.  

I certainly won't dispute that one can damage one's hands through conditioning, but I think the argument being put forth is entirely without scientific or medical basis to back it.  



Grenadier said:


> Does this mean that hand conditioning (or even bone conditioning) is bad?  Not necessarily.  It does take some research, though, as well as proper practice.  I've seen some folks who have a great deal of knowledge on these matters, and they haven't lost a single bit of dexterity throughout the years.  These are the guys who have rock-hard bones, yet are still able to perform their daily tasks with fine coordination.



Yes, I believe my teacher is one of them.  Hopefully, I'll be in similarly good shape when I hit my sixties.


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## dancingalone (Jul 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well, I only made the comment 'if you don't mind arthritis in later life which I don't think was actually saying you will definitely get it. It was a general comment not made totally seriously but one that may cause people to think for a moment before going out and bashing stones, trees etc willy nilly.



If you meant it tongue-in-cheek, then please disregard my comments.

I don't think people would go out and bash rocks or trees willy-nilly.  That would be rather stupid and probably painful.  



> I don't think a few words can be overgeneralising and if I want to think of myself as middle aged I certainly will whatever the life expectancy is anywhere!



You can think of yourself as whatever age you want!  I am going on 29... Again!



> I don't see the point in bashing inanimate objects myself preferring the fight clever techniques or just plain running away but if people want to do them they should make sure they aren't doing themselves any damage first.



Fair enough.  You don't train in systems that value or follow the practice.  I come from a heavy Okinawan Goju-ryu background and this is just something we do.  We favor strengthening the body's muscles, joints, and bones to both protect ourselves from blows as well as to deliver damage ourselves.  Add good punching technique to a conditioned fist, and the results can be devastating.


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## K-man (Jul 27, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You know better than that, Tez, to overgeneralize.  My sensei has rather huge punching knuckles and he has no arthristis and he's in his sixties.  Still has a fairly successful acupuncture practice too.


It's as Tez said .... *later in life*!  I consider your sensei to be in the prime of life. Later is later. Don't know when that is for him. Possibly in another 20 years or so!!


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## dancingalone (Jul 27, 2010)

No offense, Kman, but is there really a point to dragging on that line of discussion?  The last quarter of (most) people's lives is usually called a 'later' stage.  At least it is in my understanding of English.

Yes, people have been known to live upwards of a hundred years.  Yes, you are free to call yourself whatever label you prefer, regardless of your age.


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## K-man (Jul 28, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> No offense, Kman, but is there really a point to dragging on that line of discussion?  The last quarter of (most) people's lives is usually called a 'later' stage.  At least it is in my understanding of English.
> 
> Yes, people have been known to live upwards of a hundred years.  Yes, you are free to call yourself whatever label you prefer, regardless of your age.


Just pulling your leg!! Emoticons don't work on my Apple PC. :-(  The other thing is, I missed the first few posts on the second page ... sorry. In reality, I have a lot of friends with arthritis aged from 20 up, who have never been involved in martial arts. I also have a lot of friends 60 plus, still involved in MAs and they all move well, despite makiwara and padwork for decades. I have no issue with makiwara but I would not be spending a lot of time pounding rocks.  I don't believe makiwara training, done properly, increases the risk of arthritis but I would not be so sure about plunging my hands into a bucket of pebbles. That must cause joint compression and in _later life_  (or sooner) that could well lead to deformed joints and arthritis.
Bashing trees is no different to what the Okinawans do when striking the upright pole. In that case it is generally an open hand or forearm strike, rather than a clenched fist.


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## rlp271 (Jul 28, 2010)

Haha, nice Kez.  Still a great Rocky quote though.  About hand conditioning leading to arthritis, I think it depends on what you're doing, how hard, and how rigorously.  I'm not sure if Higaonna sensei has arthritis.  I wouldn't be super surprised if he did, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.  Hardening of the body is a tradition going back a long way in Okinawan karate, as someone else mentioned in an earlier post.  I think they've probably figured a few things out by now.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> If you meant it tongue-in-cheek, then please disregard my comments.
> 
> I don't think people would go out and bash rocks or trees willy-nilly. That would be rather stupid and probably painful.
> 
> ...


 

As I said it wasn't totally serious, I wasn't making any scientific statements, so yes it was tongue in cheek but you never underetsimate people stupidity. There's plenty who would go out bashing their shins with rolling pins and punching bowls of hot sand just because they saw it on television. People's gullibility is boundless, recently a British actor was attacked by someone angry at the way his character on a soap was behaving, the same programme has a character who's husband is having an affair and the actress playing her, accompanied by her own husband has people taking her aside to warn her of her screen husband's antics, surely these people must know its not real? So, never be sure that people when they read about things or see them on the screens big or small don't believe it's true, real or should be done only under supervision.


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## dancingalone (Jul 28, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> As I said it wasn't totally serious, I wasn't making any scientific statements, so yes it was tongue in cheek but you never underetsimate people stupidity.



<shrugs>  Those people don't sound like martial artists to me.  

It takes real commitment to condition your hands.  Bruising is a regular reality and at times you'll cut your skin and flesh.  I'm not worried about the untrained people trying to follow this path.  It only takes one session before they'll move onto their next fantasy.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs> Those people don't sound like martial artists to me.
> 
> It takes real commitment to condition your hands. Bruising is a regular reality and at times you'll cut your skin and flesh. I'm not worried about the untrained people trying to follow this path. It only takes one session before they'll move onto their next fantasy.


 

I've seen someone do a no touch knockout and a lot of senior Dan grades believe it was real so yeah I think there's plenty of martial artists who will believe you can do the things I describe and go on to do it seriously, I'm not talking about wannabes. 
My hands are too precious I'm afraid to abuse them that way. I know a great many heavy hitters who don't need to go through that either.


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## dancingalone (Jul 28, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen someone do a no touch knockout and a lot of senior Dan grades believe it was real so yeah I think there's plenty of martial artists who will believe you can do the things I describe and go on to do it seriously, I'm not talking about wannabes.




?

We were talking about hand conditioning, right?  If so, to reiterate, I don't see Average Joe running out to do it himself.  It's a fairly esoteric practice and you really have to want to do it to go through the bother.  



Tez3 said:


> My hands are too precious I'm afraid to abuse them that way. I know a  great many heavy hitters who don't need to go through that  either.



Yes, I think we've already established that it's not for everyone.  It is an old practice from Tode and have been preserved in Naha style karate.  If you are not a Naha person, chances are you won't get it, and that's fine.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> ?
> 
> We were talking about hand conditioning, right? If so, to reiterate, I don't see Average Joe running out to do it himself. It's a fairly esoteric practice and you really have to want to do it to go through the bother.
> 
> ...


 

We have several teenagers who come to MMA and they ask about hand and leg conditioning as in bashing the shins, punching hard objects etc. I also read this all the time on MMA forums, the practice coming from Muay Thai rather than karate though. Yes they are likely to and indeed do practice these things without knowledge or supervision hence my concern on here. I beleive if you look on the Muay Thai section you will find questions like this.


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## dancingalone (Jul 28, 2010)

<another shrug>  I make no claims about what teenagers ask about in MMA or muay thai forums.  This sideline discussion started when someone posted about Morio Higaonna punching rocks, and I gave some thoughts from the Naha karate perspective, considering this is the karate forum.

But this is getting pedantic.  You don't condition your hands nor do you want to.  I have in the past and I still do some maintenance conditioning as needed.  That's really all that needs to be said at this point.


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## Cirdan (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> ?
> Yes, I think we've already established that it's not for everyone. It is an old practice from Tode and have been preserved in Naha style karate. If you are not a Naha person, chances are you won't get it, and that's fine.


 
Indeed it is. Systems like Wado has a lot more focus on avoiding injury trough training and increasing sensitivity rather than potentially deaden nerves. The whole business of hitting/breaking inanimate objects are regarded as a bit silly and time that could be spent on improving technique. Anyway, to each his own.


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> <another shrug> I make no claims about what teenagers ask about in MMA or muay thai forums. This sideline discussion started when someone posted about Morio Higaonna punching rocks, and I gave some thoughts from the Naha karate perspective, considering this is the karate forum.
> 
> But this is getting pedantic. You don't condition your hands nor do you want to. I have in the past and I still do some maintenance conditioning as needed. That's really all that needs to be said at this point.


 

May well be pendantic and silly but in my country which Martial Talk is freely available and has British posters, readers and lurkers ( I do like that word) has something called 'duty of care' which means I feel honour bound to point out the dangers of something if I feel it's warrented. I've never felt that I could blithely post up something that if even one person followed it and hurt themselves I could rest easy, but that's just my sense of responsibilty as a martial artist and human being.
It's not in the least off subject because the OP is looking to chose a karate style and should have as many facts to hand as possible before embarking on his journey as a karateka.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Indeed it is. Systems like Wado has a lot more focus on avoiding injury trough training and increasing sensitivity rather than potentially deaden nerves. The whole business of hitting/breaking inanimate objects are regarded as a bit silly and time that could be spent on improving technique. Anyway, to each his own.



We all hit inanimate objects unless you just punch in the air.  Some use heavy bags.  I prefer makiwara.  After a student has acquired good technique on the makiwara he can move onto the more serious conditioning methods.

I think 'silly' is a bit strong, considering you don't study the style.  Given the predilections of Naha karate, making the body strong in order to be a weapon makes imminent sense.  It's easy enough to pick bits and pieces out of a foreign martial art to argue about from your own outside perspective - heck, I'm guilty of the same sometimes.  As with anything, better understanding comes when you review and study all the components which comprise the entire system.


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## Gruenewald (Jul 29, 2010)

Striking a rock sounds like something I would do, haha... However I wouldn't do it unless I knew it were completely safe. I'm pretty protective (perhaps paranoid in some regards?) about long-term detriments to my health. Minus potential injury in martial arts, I suppose, despite me being pretty careful to prevent those as well.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I feel honour bound to point out the dangers of something if I feel it's warrented.



Well, I believe you can consider your obligation well and fully discharged.  Now if you or someone else can point to a medical study discussing the varying effects of hand conditioning, I am all ears.  So far all everyone has mentioned are the so-called 'chances'.  To repeat, I don't know of any karate-ka that suffer from a debilitating hand problem suffered in direct connection from the practice of hand conditioning.  I HAVE heard about boxers with nerve damage and hand pain, but these guys incurred their issues from years of abuse against human targets and the gloves they wear cause them to punch in a sometimes anatomically unsound manner in order to generate as much power as possible in the ring.  Very different from the straight thrusts karate-ka employ when conditioning their hands.


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Well, I believe you can consider your obligation well and fully discharged. Now if you or someone else can point to a medical study discussing the varying effects of hand conditioning, I am all ears. So far all everyone has mentioned are the so-called 'chances'. To repeat, I don't know of any karate-ka that suffer from a debilitating hand problem suffered in direct connection from the practice of hand conditioning. I HAVE heard about boxers with nerve damage and hand pain, but these guys incurred their issues from years of abuse against human targets and the gloves they wear cause them to punch in a sometimes anatomically unsound manner in order to generate as much power as possible in the ring. Very different from the straight thrusts karate-ka employ when conditioning their hands.


 
Of course.


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## Cirdan (Jul 29, 2010)

Not my intention to be insulting, merely pointing out there are different philosophies at work here.

As for making the body strong, that is probably part of any art. Again, there are different approaches to how and what kind of strong.



dancingalone said:


> We all hit inanimate objects unless you just punch in the air. Some use heavy bags. I prefer makiwara. After a student has acquired good technique on the makiwara he can move onto the more serious conditioning methods.
> 
> I think 'silly' is a bit strong, considering you don't study the style. Given the predilections of Naha karate, making the body strong in order to be a weapon makes imminent sense. It's easy enough to pick bits and pieces out of a foreign martial art to argue about from your own outside perspective - heck, I'm guilty of the same sometimes. As with anything, better understanding comes when you review and study all the components which comprise the entire system.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Not my intention to be insulting, merely pointing out there are different philosophies at work here.



True.



> As for making the body strong, that is probably part of any art. Again, there are different approaches to how and what kind of strong.



Naha karate styles build useful muscle through dynamic tension along with implements like clay jars and stone rods/hammers.  The muscle doesn't just make you strong; it's also intended to help you avoid damage when struck.  

You generally don't see this type of exercise in Shotokan or Wado, because you'd rather slip a blow than take one in order to give one.  Neither answer is incorrect.  It depends on style and personal afffinity.


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## Cirdan (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Naha karate styles build useful muscle through dynamic tension along with implements like clay jars and stone rods/hammers.  The muscle doesn't just make you strong; it's also intended to help you avoid damage when struck.
> 
> You generally don't see this type of exercise in Shotokan or Wado, because you'd rather slip a blow than take one in order to give one.  Neither answer is incorrect.  It depends on style and personal afffinity.



True, but Wado stylists also train to take blows when needed. There is not always a clear cut to which style does what. Our club has a pretty strong chinese influence and we practice Sanchin and Tensho, kata traditionally not seen in Wado.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Most karate historians would agree that Chojun Miyagi created Tensho and he changed Sanchin to use a closed fist.  Do you perform Sanchin close or open handed?  

It sounds like you may have added some Goju-ryu into your Wado.  Very interesting.


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## K-man (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Most karate historians would agree that Chojun Miyagi created Tensho and he changed Sanchin to use a closed fist. Do you perform Sanchin close or open handed?
> 
> *It sounds like you may have added some Goju-ryu into your Wado*. Very interesting.


Wado ryu is basically a Shotokan hybrid with a strong jujutsu flavour, so this is quite feasible.


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## Cirdan (Jul 30, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Most karate historians would agree that Chojun Miyagi created Tensho and he changed Sanchin to use a closed fist. Do you perform Sanchin close or open handed?
> 
> It sounds like you may have added some Goju-ryu into your Wado. Very interesting.


 
The connection to Goju is pretty obvious with Tensho, I am not quite sure how this fits together with the stronger chinese influence at higher levels as I am not there yet. Anyway we are independant from the big Wado oganizations and we do our own thing. Seems to me there are a lot of influences from other styles while the system is still very much structured and based on core principles. I took some Kali this summer and was very suprised to find that I had been doing most of the exact same movements for years in Karate, just without sticks.

You might want to check out the videos here, this school has many of the same ideas we use. There is also a Sanchin video there. 
http://shikon.com/the-video-gallery.html


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## dancingalone (Jul 30, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> You might want to check out the videos here, this school has many of the same ideas we use. There is also a Sanchin video there.
> http://shikon.com/the-video-gallery.html



This video looks like the later Sanchin used in Goju without the turns, although there are some slight alterations.  The performer also seems to play the form softer than I have usually seen it run by Goju people.  At the same time, the Samchien forms you see in southern Chinese systems is noticeably longer with open hands and more finger thrusts.  If I had to guess, I would say these people took the Chojun Miyagi version without the turns and then altered it to do their own thing.

Thanks for the link.


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