# Time to buy sai, need advice...



## Bill Mattocks

After two and a half years of empty hand training, the time has come for me to purchase my own set of sai for kubodo training.  I need a set of stainless steel sai, the typical 'real' length and weight, no plastic or light-weight aluminum, no painted or fancy movie-prop sai, just the basic Okinawan-style weapons.  Don't want to spend more than I have to, but I would like to get something decent.

By the way, I did ask in my dojo - the general opinion is 'Yes, you should go find some.'  No advice on where or what.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!


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## harlan

I've been happy with Shureido.

http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html


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## Bill Mattocks

harlan said:


> I've been happy with Shureido.
> 
> http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html



I have read good things about them. Which do you recommend, and do you happen to know prices?  I looked at that website and don't see any prices.


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## harlan

You have to call. Prices always seem to be going up, and it's best to order from them through a school that regularly orders (as they give a discount). 

My sai (the cheapest at natural, 16 in) at full price w/shipping was about $130. I'm okay with that, as they will last a lifetime and the delivery was prompt.


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## dancingalone

I also second the Shureido recommendation.  It's actually hard to find mass produced sai outside of Shureido that don't have quality control issues.  Most of the cheaper ones have the wrong balance points and/or their manufacturing specs varied from unit to unit.

If you really feel like spending around $800 for a pair, I can put you into contact with a guy that will make them custom for you to your specifications.  One of my sempai is built like a tree with large hands and long arms, and he found it necessary to get custom ones.


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## lklawson

Do you any friends local to you who are amateur smiths?  You might be able to get him to give you a deal and get custom work to boot.

If none of your buds fits the bill, I have a friend in the Detroit area: Josh Little.  Teaches with the local Ars Gladii and does some amateur smithing.

Another alternative is if you've got a friend who can weld.  Supply him with some appropriate steel bar (rebar from abandoned work sites won't work  ).  You'll have to do the "finish work" yourself probably, but that's really not too hard, just time consuming.  Files, sanding, and polishing, then wrapping the hilt.

Any of these options should get you out the door well below $800.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Grenadier

In general, you get what you pay for. 

My personal recommendation is to go with Phil Worbington, who custom makes each pair of sai to fit your hand / arm combination. 

http://www.worbingtonsteele.com/

He's an expert metal worker, in addition to being a highly experienced Karate-ka, so he knows what he's doing. 

I have two pair of the Worbington sai, one's a heavier, 7/16" thick shaft pair for strength training, and the other is a 6/16" thick shaft pair for more speed. Both are exceptionally well balanced, and very comfortable for me to use, since they were made for my measurements. 

Last I saw, his price was about $225 for a pair, but it's worth it, and a lot less expensive than the Agena Energy sai. 

You can also get any color wrapping on the handles, which are a very strong, tightly woven cotton thread that is bonded to the handle. They don't come off, and they're much nicer to use than the leather grips that the generics use. 

He'll also put any finish that you want on there that he offers, no extra charge.  You can get the brightly polished finish, the gold finish, or my favorite, the antique finish.  




If you're more on a budget, then Shureido's "Natural" sai, that are made of blackened carbon steel, are a great choice, since they're also very well-balanced, and come in at about $175 a pair from Shureido USA (linked above). You have to keep them oiled, though. 

They'll ask you if you want the standard "heavy" pair, or the lighter pair, much how I have my two pair of sai mentioned above. I usually tell students to go with the lighter pair. 

If you want Shureido's stainless steel ones, you're looking at around $200, in which case, I'd simply recommend you go with Worbington's sai. 

If you have your own dojo, then ask them for a wholesale account. That's where the sai should drop a good bit. 


Agena Energy sai are also very nice, but now you're looking at $400 / pair.


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## Bill Mattocks

Grenadier said:


> Agena Energy sai are also very nice, but now you're looking at $400 / pair.



They will very shortly be unavailable as well.  Owner is going into retirement from making for general public.  I posted a link about it recently.


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## Grenadier

Bill Mattocks said:


> They will very shortly be unavailable as well.  Owner is going into retirement from making for general public.  I posted a link about it recently.



Sad to hear this...  I hope that he has passed his craftsmanship skills to a worth person.  

On another note, I forgot to mention Kensho International:

http://www.kenshoint.com/home.html

They also make excellent, well-balanced sai.  Prices should be similar to the Worbington, Shureido, etc.  He'll also cut you a deal if you're a school owner.


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## Bill Mattocks

Grenadier said:


> Sad to hear this...  I hope that he has passed his craftsmanship skills to a worth person.



No mention was made of that:

http://www.weaponsconnection.com/weaponsgallery.html



> SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT!​ *The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself.*
> Time is running out!
> From Jan.1 to May 2, The Weapons Connections popular line of handcrafted weaponry​ will still be available to all interested.
> However, on May 2, 2011, I am going into semi retirement.
> My handcrafted weaponry will only be available to those in the
> Ryukyute Weapons Preservation Society.
> *I am giving everyone an opportunity to get the finest handcrafted weaponry until May 2.*





> On another note, I forgot to mention Kensho International:
> 
> http://www.kenshoint.com/home.html
> 
> They also make excellent, well-balanced sai.  Prices should be similar to the Worbington, Shureido, etc.  He'll also cut you a deal if you're a school owner.



Looks very interesting, thank you.  I am not a school owner, just a humble student.


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## jks9199

Bill -- maybe there are a couple of students ready or close to being ready, and you can contact them for a group order?


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## Grenadier

Just checking to see if you pulled the trigger on the purchase yet?


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## Bill Mattocks

jks9199 said:


> Bill -- maybe there are a couple of students ready or close to being ready, and you can contact them for a group order?



Not that I'm aware of.  Our is a small dojo and honestly, although I think highly of all the recommendations I've seen here, I doubt this is the type of expenditure most of them would consider making.  That's just my opinion, I can't speak for them.


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## Bill Mattocks

Grenadier said:


> Just checking to see if you pulled the trigger on the purchase yet?



I have not.  I found little between the $30 sai sold at typical online ninja malls and the $300+ custom-made sai; I was actually hoping for something in the sub-$100 range that was in between the two extremes.  Seems there's not much of a middle road there.

I did try to purchase some of the less-expensive of the higher-end sai I had seen here, but they don't have them in my size.  My arm measures 18 inches from the tip of my index finger to the point of my elbow, which I believe equates to a 19" sai. They had only 17" and 21", so I passed.

So I'm still looking.

As to the suggestions to hire a machine shop, make them myself, or call a friend with has a welder - I think we live in different neighborhoods.  I know like six guys in Michigan, and none of them weld.  I'm an IT guy, folks.  Don't really hang out in machine shops, as fascinating as that sounds!


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## lklawson

Bill Mattocks said:


> As to the suggestions to hire a machine shop, make them myself, or call a friend with has a welder - I think we live in different neighborhoods.  I know like six guys in Michigan, and none of them weld.  I'm an IT guy, folks.  Don't really hang out in machine shops, as fascinating as that sounds!


I'm an IT professional too.  College Degree in it.  Arm-full of Industry Certifications.  yada yada and a partridge in a pear tree.

But you can make connections.  I used to have connections (all "stale" now) to professional machinists because I was a LAN Administrator for a custom design and machine shop in the plastics industry.  I've also made numerous "craftsman" connections through my involvement in martial arts and shooting sports (lots of do-it-yourselfers, home forgers, home armourers and home armorers - the aforementioned Josh Little is an example).  I have one connection to a licensed Pipe-Fitter (welders Par Excellence) because we attend Church together (I've worked on his home PC for free once or twice).  For that matter, I also have a friend from Church who's a talented wood-worker and professional indoor construction contractor; he's repaired an heirloom coffee table and made some dagger wasters for me.

The connections are all around you.  I bet better than even money that someone you work with is a welder as a hobby or has a relative or close friend who is.  

Make the connections.  To facilitate that, BE a connection.  You have skills that your friends and associates would probably like to tap from time to time.  Besides the hackneyed "I can work on your PC" stuff, you can also do other things.  Maybe teaching a free "Women's Self Defense" seminar for your Church/Synagogue/Lions Club/whatever can let your associates tap your Martial Arts skills.  You may have other skills which you can offer.  As an example, I republish antique manuals through Lulu.  I have had no fewer than 4 people solicit my advice about their own republishing projects and, in two cases, solicit for joint projects.  We are mutually advantageous connections for each other and it has helped our friendship.

Don't be afraid to ask, to solicit advice and skills.  When I was looking at offering my book to traditional Publishers, I asked advice from 3 different published authors; all of whom I've met through Martial Arts.

I guess this is a rather long-winded way of saying, "Don't give up, man."  Talk to Josh.  I have no idea whether or not he'd be interested in your Sai project or what he might ask in return.  But he's in the Detroit area so he's at least "local to your state."  And if he doesn't want to/can't work on it, he might offer other suggestions.

I hope this doesn't come across as preachy.  I really want to encourage you.  I honestly believe you have more options than you realize.  IT is a wonderful jumping off point because it gives you lots potential people connections.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bruno@MT

Agree with klawson.

Once you start asking around among people you know, you're bound to find someone whose friend / son / father in law /... is a metal worker or an amateur smith. You don't have to know someone that well before asking them if they perhaps know someone who might help you with a metal working project. Anyone you talked with a couple of times would do (shopkeepers etc)

However, assuming that this does not turn up anything, you can always do a quick google search for smiths or welders or metal workshops in your neighborhood and contact one of them. there's bound to be a couple around. My experience is that most amateur people will be glad to be of help with an interesting sounding project.


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## Bill Mattocks

lklawson said:


> I hope this doesn't come across as preachy.  I really want to encourage you.  I honestly believe you have more options than you realize.  IT is a wonderful jumping off point because it gives you lots potential people connections.



Yeah, but then they want me to fix their PC.


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## harlan

I don't want to come across as insensitive, but it is, after all, just a tool.

I used my teacher's sai for years before I could afford my own. Tokkaido, Shureido, and even a pair of cheapies from a friend. Different lengths, weights, balance, shape...and then bought my own and had to adjust to them as well. I'd go with the overlong Shureido, cheapest pair, to simply facilitate training.


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## Bill Mattocks

harlan said:


> I don't want to come across as insensitive, but it is, after all, just a tool.
> 
> I used my teacher's sai for years before I could afford my own. Tokkaido, Shureido, and even a pair of cheapies from a friend. Different lengths, weights, balance, shape...and then bought my own and had to adjust to them as well. I'd go with the overlong Shureido, cheapest pair, to simply facilitate training.



No problem, I appreciate the advice!  I've been using the sai in the dojo, but there aren't enough for all the students, and Sensei mentioned that when students get to a certain point in their training, it's time to consider buying their own (hint hint, right?).  We are not a big dojo, we don't have an order desk or anything like that.  I could ask one of the senseis there who sometimes puts an order together at Century, but that's pretty much sure to take months and months.  There are no martial arts supply stores in town that I'm aware of.

So I'm pretty much limited, I guess, to either settling for the cheapies you can buy in the online ninja malls or going with a much more expensive set; doesn't seem to be much in the middle.  As much as I appreciate advice to get out there and network myself up a guy who can weld and has a machine shop, I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.  I'm not a social guy except online and in my small dojo.  I don't socialize, really.  So that's just not going to happen.

I think you're probably right; I will probably just have to order something cheap and use that for awhile.  Eventually I may want to spend the dough to buy a nice set of 'real' sai, and when I do that, I'll be sure to get a nice set that fits me correctly.


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## lklawson

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yeah, but then they want me to fix their PC.


Do you have a truck?  They might want you to help them move.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

harlan said:


> I don't want to come across as insensitive, but it is, after all, just a tool.


Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.

A lot of folks (myself included) sometimes form emotional attachments to their "tools" and will often look for ones that will somehow "express" them or are special in some way.

Gifts, tools that are customized to you, tools that are acquired on a special occasion or as a commemorative memento, etc. are all more than "just" a tool.

This goes for just about anything that others might consider a mere "tool."  Most of us (myself included) consider their automobile a "tool" that gets them from point-A to point-B.  But then you've got folks that have "special" cars.  Restored antiques, maybe the same model as their first car (or the first car they "got lucky") in, or just 'cuz they always liked that model.

Heck, my favorite pistol is a 50 year old military cast-off.  But I love the looks, love the cartridge, and have customized it to my tastes.

A person's first pair of sai might easily fit into this category.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Flying Crane

lklawson said:


> Do you any friends local to you who are amateur smiths? You might be able to get him to give you a deal and get custom work to boot.
> 
> Another alternative is if you've got a friend who can weld. Supply him with some appropriate steel bar (rebar from abandoned work sites won't work  ). You'll have to do the "finish work" yourself probably, but that's really not too hard, just time consuming. Files, sanding, and polishing, then wrapping the hilt.


 
My word of caution in this idea is that these people, while they may know their metal working and welding, may know nothing about the weapon and how it is used.  This means it's unlikely that they will get the balance and proportions just right.  It may LOOK like a sai, but it may FEEL like a telephone pole and be un-functional.

I'm an amature metal worker myself (bronze and silver casting), so I appreciate the thought when it comes to finding artisans to do the work for you.  But they must have an understanding of what the end result needs to be.  Otherwise the result, while being less expensive, will be unacceptable.


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## lklawson

Flying Crane said:


> I'm an amature metal worker myself


Hey, look Bill!  I found a metal worker you know!  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Flying Crane said:


> But they must have an understanding of what the end result needs to be.  Otherwise the result, while being less expensive, will be unacceptable.


Yeah.  Like I mentioned, you gotta find one that will work with you.  

And just because they have never made one doesn't mean that they can't.  Yeah, the first try may be a paper weight.  The following will be better and, heck, these guys gotta get a "first time" sometime, right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bruno@MT

It would help greatly if you can worh with someone, and have a good pair of sai as an example and to compare balance etc.

I am an amateur metal worker as well, though not experienced with welding or blacksmithing. I restore antique stright razors and make new ones as well. They're not mere tools to me, and I can spend hours and hours for zero or small profit, just because I care about the blades..

Otoh,  my car... paint is peeling away from the bumper and there are minor dents all over it and I don't care.


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## Grenadier

There is a low cost alternative, if you want to start out with a better-balanced pair of sai than the usual ones that you see from AWMA, Century, et al.  

http://www.sakuramartialarts.com/Martial_Arts_Weapons_Sai_Demo_Octagon_p/wea-9301-a1.htm

These are the "demo" sai, that are a bit lighter, but also have better balance.  Our students use these when they first start out, so that they can develop mechanics that don't get corrupted by an unbalanced pair.  

It's the mechanical development that's the most critical initial phase.  Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro (chief instructor of Yamanni Ryu Kobudo) emphatically states in his seminars that "if you learn on junk sai, then your technique will usually be junk." 

Learning with these sai is what I consider the equivalent of someone learning how to shoot with a decent quality .22 LR pistol.  This way, you develop good trigger mechanics, so that you aren't trying to immediately focus on flinching issues, etc., and can work the more powerful weapons later.


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## Flying Crane

lklawson said:


> Yeah. Like I mentioned, you gotta find one that will work with you.
> 
> And just because they have never made one doesn't mean that they can't. Yeah, the first try may be a paper weight. The following will be better and, heck, these guys gotta get a "first time" sometime, right?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
yup, as long as everyone understands the issue and recognizes the possible pitfalls and is prepared to work around them.

Of course the more of that they need to do, and suddenly the cost isn't so low anymore...


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## Bill Mattocks

Grenadier said:


> There is a low cost alternative, if you want to start out with a better-balanced pair of sai than the usual ones that you see from AWMA, Century, et al.
> 
> http://www.sakuramartialarts.com/Martial_Arts_Weapons_Sai_Demo_Octagon_p/wea-9301-a1.htm
> 
> These are the "demo" sai, that are a bit lighter, but also have better balance.  Our students use these when they first start out, so that they can develop mechanics that don't get corrupted by an unbalanced pair.
> 
> It's the mechanical development that's the most critical initial phase.  Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro (chief instructor of Yamanni Ryu Kobudo) emphatically states in his seminars that "if you learn on junk sai, then your technique will usually be junk."
> 
> Learning with these sai is what I consider the equivalent of someone learning how to shoot with a decent quality .22 LR pistol.  This way, you develop good trigger mechanics, so that you aren't trying to immediately focus on flinching issues, etc., and can work the more powerful weapons later.



In our dojo, our training involves having bo staffs bashed into our sai at near-full-force once the basic blocks have been demonstrated.  Do you think these sai would stand up to that?  We have a couple of the aluminum ultra-lightweight sai in the dojo that someone brought in long ago and abandoned; good for getting your brains based in when you block with them against a bo or engage in sai-sai or bo-sai kumite in the dojo, so no one uses those.

I like the link, and thank you!  I think that might be just what I'm after, so long as they're not just for show.


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## lklawson

Flying Crane said:


> yup, as long as everyone understands the issue and recognizes the possible pitfalls and is prepared to work around them.
> 
> Of course the more of that they need to do, and suddenly the cost isn't so low anymore...


Absolutely.

My experience is that hobbyists and folks "helping out a friend" will tend to have more sympathy in their pricing when dealing with the inevitable growing pains of a new project.

YMMV.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## chinto

harlan said:


> I've been happy with Shureido.
> 
> http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html




oh ya so would I! i have handled shureido sai. they balance much better and feel so nice and alive in  your hands! also they will resale for about what you bought them for ...


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## Grenadier

Bill Mattocks said:


> In our dojo, our training involves having bo staffs bashed into our sai at near-full-force once the basic blocks have been demonstrated. Do you think these sai would stand up to that? We have a couple of the aluminum ultra-lightweight sai in the dojo that someone brought in long ago and abandoned


 
Sorry about the lateness of the response...  Last couple of weeks has been hectic. 

These are much stronger than aluminum sai, and still have a decent heft to them.  

In all honesty, though, without knowing how one engages in blocking techniques (varies from style to style), it's difficult to say.  If someone were trying to get the entire sai to take the force of a bo strike, then I doubt any sai would be able to hold up to that.  

If, on the other hand, one uses the sai , and also uses the lower body to re-inforce the position, then blocking a bo strike could certainly be done with the above sai.  They're still made of steel, after all.


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## Bill Mattocks

Grenadier said:


> Sorry about the lateness of the response...  Last couple of weeks has been hectic.
> 
> These are much stronger than aluminum sai, and still have a decent heft to them.
> 
> In all honesty, though, without knowing how one engages in blocking techniques (varies from style to style), it's difficult to say.  If someone were trying to get the entire sai to take the force of a bo strike, then I doubt any sai would be able to hold up to that.
> 
> If, on the other hand, one uses the sai , and also uses the lower body to re-inforce the position, then blocking a bo strike could certainly be done with the above sai.  They're still made of steel, after all.



I bought a pair of these - I just needed something, and could not wait any longer.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009PIUHG

They were cheap - I thought, well if no one can tell me the difference between the cheapies, I have to try something, so I'll go with the cheapest.

They're steel.  And I bent them with my hands.

So now those are in the trash.

Steel apparently isn't getting it.  Aluminum would be right out.  I think too many people are thinking of sai to hang on walls or throw at trees or something (comments on feedback for various sai sold online).  This isn't for doing kata exclusively.  We do bo-sai kumite.  Yes, we block bo staff strikes with them; if we fail to block, we get a shot in the head with the bo, and one of our guys got six stitches in his forehead for it.  Full force?  I'd say about that, yes.

Bottom line - I'm not asking anyone to make them for me.  Despite the excellent advice, I'm simply not going to do that.  I'm also not going to spend $300 and up on a set.  I'm just a beginner.  I need strong sai, real sai, and I was hoping there was something in between the $30 cheapies and the $300 'real' sai.  Apparently not much.

Oh, and I really have trouble with web sites that won't list a price; you have to call them and they'll tell you how much they cost.  Uh, sorry.  I'm not into negotiating or finding out how much the guy feels like pricing them today depending his mood.  If the price isn't listed, I'm not buying them.  I thought about that one a lot.  I respect the guy's desire to do that, but I'm not going to call him.  That's just not me.  Tell me the price or forget it.

SO, having bought stupid cheap and regretted it, I'm still looking.  And a bit miffed at myself.


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## jks9199

Bill -- depending on the site (I'm not going through to find which one/ones) that didn't list a price, I would give 'em a chance.  Prices may reflect current costs, and the guy just doesn't feel like playing with his website on a daily basis, y'know?

What advice has your teacher or senior students given you about what to buy?   As I recall, they didn't want to recommend a source (or couldn't) but they should at least be able to tell you the characteristics you want.

You might try contacting Wayne Wayland via this website.  He's on the other side of the country -- but has great Isshin-ryu contacts and might be able to refer you to someone.


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## harlan

I've bought cheap stuff because I had to have it right away, and in every case but one, regretted it. Lesson learned. Sometimes one has to wait, and things come one's way. Serendipitous.  And then there is being stiff necked. 

Not that I get anything out of it, but I called Shureido (USA) today and natural 20 inch sai are $185. They are out of stock of the 22 inch...no price quote available until next shipment from Okinawa arrives.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I bought a pair of these - I just needed something, and could not wait any longer.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009PIUHG
> 
> They were cheap - I thought, well if no one can tell me the difference between the cheapies, I have to try something, so I'll go with the cheapest.
> 
> They're steel. And I bent them with my hands.
> 
> So now those are in the trash.
> 
> Steel apparently isn't getting it. Aluminum would be right out. I think too many people are thinking of sai to hang on walls or throw at trees or something (comments on feedback for various sai sold online). This isn't for doing kata exclusively. We do bo-sai kumite. Yes, we block bo staff strikes with them; if we fail to block, we get a shot in the head with the bo, and one of our guys got six stitches in his forehead for it. Full force? I'd say about that, yes.
> 
> Bottom line - I'm not asking anyone to make them for me. Despite the excellent advice, I'm simply not going to do that. I'm also not going to spend $300 and up on a set. I'm just a beginner. I need strong sai, real sai, and I was hoping there was something in between the $30 cheapies and the $300 'real' sai. Apparently not much.
> 
> Oh, and I really have trouble with web sites that won't list a price; you have to call them and they'll tell you how much they cost. Uh, sorry. I'm not into negotiating or finding out how much the guy feels like pricing them today depending his mood. If the price isn't listed, I'm not buying them. I thought about that one a lot. I respect the guy's desire to do that, but I'm not going to call him. That's just not me. Tell me the price or forget it.
> 
> SO, having bought stupid cheap and regretted it, I'm still looking. And a bit miffed at myself.


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## Bill Mattocks

jks9199 said:


> Bill -- depending on the site (I'm not going through to find which one/ones) that didn't list a price, I would give 'em a chance.  Prices may reflect current costs, and the guy just doesn't feel like playing with his website on a daily basis, y'know?



I know.  But it's always been a thing for me.  I see something in a classified ad and the guy doesn't give a price or an email, he wants potential buyers to 'call him'.  Uh yeah.  I'm not into that _"how much is it worth to you"_ thing.  Like a used car lot, where the sales guy tells you the price after he's got you locked in his office and already has a pretty good idea how much money you make.  Ick.  Just tell me how much, huh?  How hard is that?  Put the price on the website.



> What advice has your teacher or senior students given you about what to buy?   As I recall, they didn't want to recommend a source (or couldn't) but they should at least be able to tell you the characteristics you want.


Not really.  It's a small dojo.  Our sensei said that at a certain point, a student probably wants to buy his or her on sai instead of using the ones in the dojo.  I don't know who makes the ones in the dojo.  One of our sensei does order from Century, but I don't know if all the sai come from there.  And Century's sai aren't cheap, either.  And the ones in the dojo are beat to heck.  You could get chrome pieces in your bloodstream if you cut yourself on those things.



> You might try contacting Wayne Wayland via this website.  He's on the other side of the country -- but has great Isshin-ryu contacts and might be able to refer you to someone.


Thanks!


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## Bill Mattocks

harlan said:


> I've bought cheap stuff because I had to have it right away, and in every case but one, regretted it. Lesson learned. Sometimes one has to wait, and things come one's way. Serendipitous.  And then there is being stiff necked.
> 
> Not that I get anything out of it, but I called Shureido (USA) today and natural 20 inch sai are $185. They are out of stock of the 22 inch...no price quote available until next shipment from Okinawa arrives.



Well, 20 inch is too small and 22 is just a little bit too big...I think.  And the price is...OK I guess.  I'd really love to see something decent in between the $40 cheapies and the $300 'best'.  This is in between, yes, but a bit more towards the lower side of $100 would be really nice.  Like I said, I must be looking for something that doesn't exist.


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## Josh Oakley

I think your evaluation is correct. Even the best steel will bend after a bit. I had a really great jutte that my uncle had made for me that I bent to hell as a teenager by beating it against a tree. And it was strong steel.


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## Josh Oakley

Plus... something seems a little off to be blocking a staff with a sai. Maybe it's just me.


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## tayl0124

Bill, it is unfortunate that you cannot look beyond the issue that you have to call to get a price.  What would you have done before the internet??  Okay enough about that.  Any time that we have talked about any karate equiptment in the dojo, weather weapons( sai, bo, tonfia) or uniforms my sensei has always suggested Shureido.  He has placed many orders from Shureido usa and has told me to just let him know if I want to order something, or he may even pick up something durring his next trip to Okinawa to train with Tokumura Sensei.  Something you may want to consider is that the items at Shureido USA are imported and there is an exchange in currency that changes every day.  This is my guess as to why they do not list prices on their site.  They could list the prices in Yen, but what does that really do for us anyways??

Good luck with your search for a good pair of Sai.  I too have been looking for a pair that are cheaper than the Shureido ones, but haven't been able to find any of good enough quality.  One day I will probably have to bite the bullet and then I will buy a pair from Shureido.  I know there is a guy that my Sensei knows in Michigan that makes Eku, and such, I am not sure if he makes Sai or not,  I can ask him later today when we have class,  I have seen his website once but can't find it as of the moment.


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## Bill Mattocks

tayl0124 said:


> Bill, it is unfortunate that you cannot look beyond the issue that you have to call to get a price.  What would you have done before the internet??  Okay enough about that.  Any time that we have talked about any karate equiptment in the dojo, weather weapons( sai, bo, tonfia) or uniforms my sensei has always suggested Shureido.  He has placed many orders from Shureido usa and has told me to just let him know if I want to order something, or he may even pick up something durring his next trip to Okinawa to train with Tokumura Sensei.  Something you may want to consider is that the items at Shureido USA are imported and there is an exchange in currency that changes every day.  This is my guess as to why they do not list prices on their site.  They could list the prices in Yen, but what does that really do for us anyways??
> 
> Good luck with your search for a good pair of Sai.  I too have been looking for a pair that are cheaper than the Shureido ones, but haven't been able to find any of good enough quality.  One day I will probably have to bite the bullet and then I will buy a pair from Shureido.  I know there is a guy that my Sensei knows in Michigan that makes Eku, and such, I am not sure if he makes Sai or not,  I can ask him later today when we have class,  I have seen his website once but can't find it as of the moment.



Not to worry, this is an old thread.  I bought a pair of el cheapos.  I appreciate all the advice, but in the end, I cannot spend money I do not have.  I wish I had not started this thread, to be honest.  Thank you for the offer.


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## Brandon Fisher

Bill,
I have 2 pair of Shureido Sai and they are quite nice. The real heavy duty ones are a bit big for me but I use the chrome ones most of the time anyway. I have a contact I am going to look into about their sai. He is a student of Kyoshi Donald Shapland of the Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan and makes sai the okinawan way. I don't know the quality yet so I can't vouch for it yet but I trust Shapland Sensei's opinion. Another option is Worbington Steele whom made the nunti for my nunti bo and did a nice job.  http://www.worbingtonsteele.com/weapons.html

One last suggestion is one of the best if not the best but by far the most expensive and that is Peter Carbone Sensei's sai. http://www.weaponsconnection.com 

All these suggestions are great but expensive but they are the best.

Brandon


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## Bill Mattocks

Hi Brandon:

Sensei Carbone no longer makes weapons; he is 'semi-retired'.  And I understand about the quality of the other weapons.  But when I say I can't afford them, I actually mean I cannot afford them.  No money.  I don't know how else to say that.  It's like continuing to insist that Rolls Royces are great cars to a guy who rides a bicycle.  I agree they're great.  Can't afford one. How else can I say that?  Anyway, thanks for the reply anyway.


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## Brandon Fisher

Bill,
There are many things that I have gotten that "I couldn't afford" but I planned for them and worked to be able to do it. I understand money is tight, it is everywhere with about everyone. However I didn't deserve the tone in your response, so I won't bother again. Sorry for sharing my experience.

Gomennasai!!


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## tayl0124

Brandon Fisher said:


> Bill,
> I have 2 pair of Shureido Sai and they are quite nice. The real heavy duty ones are a bit big for me but I use the chrome ones most of the time anyway. I have a contact I am going to look into about their sai. He is a student of Kyoshi Donald Shapland of the Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan and makes sai the okinawan way. I don't know the quality yet so I can't vouch for it yet but I trust Shapland Sensei's opinion. Another option is Worbington Steele whom made the nunti for my nunti bo and did a nice job.  http://www.worbingtonsteele.com/weapons.html
> 
> One last suggestion is one of the best if not the best but by far the most expensive and that is Peter Carbone Sensei's sai. http://www.weaponsconnection.com
> 
> All these suggestions are great but expensive but they are the best.
> 
> Brandon



Let me know what you find out about this other guy who makes them.  Do you study directly with Sensei Don Shapland??  I know a guy who I believe also studies under him.  I also believe that my Sensei made a trip up to his dojo a few months back.


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## Brandon Fisher

No I don't study with Shapland Sensei I was lucky enough to find a very good kobudo sensei locally that is a student of Tokumura Sensei now. I did just order 2 pair of tunfa from Shapland Sensei which are in the mail now and should have them in a few days. I can't wait to get them and use them.

However I have seen pictures of them and they are the old design with the handles having points on the end of the handle like Carbone Sensei's sai. Here is a picture of Carbone Sensei's sai in case you are not sure what I mean: http://www.weaponsconnection.com/weapons photos/energysaiofagena.jpg. It will be a little bit yet before I order them: my chrome shureido sai are still doing the job but haven't don't really do a lot of banging on them. That and just signed the lease for the new dojo so have some renovation costs and such coming up.


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## Bill Mattocks

I offer my apologies to Brandon Fisher and anyone else whom I may have offended with the terseness of my replies to this thread.  I allowed a recent personal financial incident to color my response, and it was not polite.  Again, I offer my apologies.


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## Brandon Fisher

Apology accepted.. Arigato gozaimasu!!


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## Bill Mattocks

Brandon Fisher said:


> Apology accepted.. Arigato gozaimasu!!



Dohe tashi ma ste


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## tayl0124

Awesome Brandon, I am familiar with Carobon's sais.  They look very similar to my Sensei Holt's(also a student of Tokumura) shureido ones.  Does your local kubudo Sensei study under the Tamiose(sp?) lineage??  We have just been introduced to the Akamine Hiroshi(sp?) lineage by a great kubudo guy from Mankato MN.  I actually attended a Seminar hosted by him, where he brought Akamine Hiroshi to the little town of Mankato, as well as many ruku kobudo guys from around the world.  I was truely amazed that there were so many people that would travel that far to train.


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## Brandon Fisher

I am familiar with Jurgens Sensei and I know he lived on Okinawa for quite sometime training with Akamine Hiroshi Sensei. I have never seen his kobudo but I know its not easy to gain a 5[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan and Shihan ranking from a Okinawan organization typically.

My Sensei trained with Carbone Sensei for many years and received her 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan from Nakamoto Kiichi Sensei. She has more kobudo background than just that also but is now under Tokumura Sensei who since you are familiar with him you probably know he got his 9[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan / Hanshi from Nakamoto Sensei.

Personally I have been training in Kobudo since Nov. 1992 have never had the opportunity to gain separate rank in Kobudo from my Karate rank.


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## lklawson

Brandon Fisher said:


> Bill,
> There are many things that I have gotten that "I couldn't afford" but I  planned for them and worked to be able to do it. I understand money is  tight, it is everywhere with about everyone. However I didn't deserve  the tone in your response, so I won't bother again. Sorry for sharing my  experience.
> 
> Gomennasai!!


Whao!  Slow down there chief.  There wasn't any  insulting "tone" to Bill's post.  Yes, there was obvious frustration but  no overt insult.  And, frankly, your post could be considered  insulting.  Just because you have the means to plan and save for some  expensive item doesn't mean that everyone can.  You and I have no idea  of Bill's current financial circumstances.  He might be so far  underwater that any expense is a luxury.  Crap, I know some people for  whom money is so "tight" right now, that fixing their blasted vehicle so  that they can get to work without it over-heating is a "luxury."  I  know some folks who, sometimes, eating anything other than plain rice is  a "luxury" (what, you mean we get *meat* today?  huzah!). 

Maybe  he's lost his job.  I know a lot of folks in that boat.  Maybe he's  working multiple minimum wage jobs.  I know folks there too.  Maybe he's  had sudden expenses such as property damage or sudden illness.  I know  one person who's paying out almost $10,000 to repair damage to his roof  from a hail storm (you're in Ohio, surely you remember this summer's  hail storm) and I know another person who's just been diagnosed with  Cancer (insurance covers most but he's still got deductibles, non-covered expenses, travel expenses 'cuz gas ain't free, etc.).

It  doesn't pay to make assumptions about what other people can or can not  afford, even if you think they should be able to budget and scrimp and  save for God knows how long.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks

It's OK, Kirk, I spoke with Brandon via PM and we're cool.  In a nutshell, yes, my finances are in dire straits at the moment.  Not permanent, but some legal things are happening and it's not good and it was on my mind; I spoke out of turn.  Thank you, though.


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## Brandon Fisher

When Bill and I get to see each other again hopefully in November I am sure we will shake each others hand and say hey.


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## Brandon Fisher

Sorry picture didn't attach. I found the picture of the sai I was talking about


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## dianhsuhe

Master Phillip Worbington of Worbington Steel.  Best made and balanced sai I have ever seen or handled.


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## Grenadier

dianhsuhe said:


> Master Phillip Worbington of Worbington Steel. Best made and balanced sai I have ever seen or handled.



I have yet to find someone dissatisfied with Phillip Worbington's weapons, especially the sai.  Each pair is custom fitted, and for the price paid, I'm not sure if there are any others out there who fit each pair of sai for each buyer.  

Glad to see that he's still cranking out weapons.


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## MikeBielat

Sorry to bring back an old thread but I just pulled the trigger with Phil Worbington to have my sais custom made. I'll let you all know how they turn out. So far, Phil has been prompt to get back to me and double and triple checked my sizing for me to make sure things are correct. So far so good! He said about 10 days to make before being shipped.

I truly feel like there is no halfway decent sai in the $60-80 price range that would be acceptable for training.  If one plays a guitar then you have the cheap $100 guitars and they can go up easily into the thousands. The difference here is that a $250-350 guitar would be of very decent quality and would play like a dream. 

Unfortunately weapons aren't like guitars and it is hard to get a pair that will hold up and not break.

I ordered a pair of sais from AWMA back 8 years ago and a whole chunk of one fork was not chrome plated and was super rusted in that section. 

Cheap ain't good and good ain't cheap.


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## Bill Mattocks

MikeBielat said:


> Cheap ain't good and good ain't cheap.



That is a fact.  But when you do not have the big bucks to buy the best, your options are limited to "the best of a bad situation."  And "saving my money until I can afford the best" isn't an option either.  For various reasons, that is not permitted to me at this time.  So I bought a pair of cheap sai.  They're not good, but they're OK enough to practice in the dojo with.  And that's all there is too it for me.  Wishing for more is fine.  Affording more is not possible.  So I moved on.


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## Brandon Fisher

MikeBielat said:


> Sorry to bring back an old thread but I just pulled the trigger with Phil Worbington to have my sais custom made. I'll let you all know how they turn out. So far, Phil has been prompt to get back to me and double and triple checked my sizing for me to make sure things are correct. So far so good! He said about 10 days to make before being shipped.
> 
> I truly feel like there is no halfway decent sai in the $60-80 price range that would be acceptable for training.  If one plays a guitar then you have the cheap $100 guitars and they can go up easily into the thousands. The difference here is that a $250-350 guitar would be of very decent quality and would play like a dream.
> 
> Unfortunately weapons aren't like guitars and it is hard to get a pair that will hold up and not break.
> 
> I ordered a pair of sais from AWMA back 8 years ago and a whole chunk of one fork was not chrome plated and was super rusted in that section.
> 
> Cheap ain't good and good ain't cheap.



I bought a pair of the worbington sai after seeing this post and I gave in and did it. Now let me give the positives first. 

1. The balance is very good but not perfect
2. Phillips response time is very good
3. Delivery time after placing the order is very acceptable

Negatives
1. I had to send my sai back twice only to be told that the last time would be the last time fixing the sizing. I gave him the exact size of my hand across the palm and the size was 1in to large the first time they were made and to small the second time. Guess what they still don't fit me at least my wife can use them so I am not out alot.

I hope you don't have the luck I had. I had another pair of custom sai made by someone else and I paid the same price and they are much better. However they are not stainless steel but very functional.

Just my .02,
Brandon Fisher


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## MikeBielat

That's a bummer Brandon. I'll let you know if I have any issues. May be why Phil double and triple checked sizing for me. Lessons learned?


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## Brandon Fisher

I hope thats the case.


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## chinto

Bill Mattocks said:


> I bought a pair of these - I just needed something, and could not wait any longer.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009PIUHG
> 
> They were cheap - I thought, well if no one can tell me the difference between the cheapies, I have to try something, so I'll go with the cheapest.
> 
> They're steel.  And I bent them with my hands.
> 
> So now those are in the trash.
> 
> Steel apparently isn't getting it.  Aluminum would be right out.  I think too many people are thinking of sai to hang on walls or throw at trees or something (comments on feedback for various sai sold online).  This isn't for doing kata exclusively.  We do bo-sai kumite.  Yes, we block bo staff strikes with them; if we fail to block, we get a shot in the head with the bo, and one of our guys got six stitches in his forehead for it.  Full force?  I'd say about that, yes.
> 
> Bottom line - I'm not asking anyone to make them for me.  Despite the excellent advice, I'm simply not going to do that.  I'm also not going to spend $300 and up on a set.  I'm just a beginner.  I need strong sai, real sai, and I was hoping there was something in between the $30 cheapies and the $300 'real' sai.  Apparently not much.
> 
> Oh, and I really have trouble with web sites that won't list a price; you have to call them and they'll tell you how much they cost.  Uh, sorry.  I'm not into negotiating or finding out how much the guy feels like pricing them today depending his mood.  If the price isn't listed, I'm not buying them.  I thought about that one a lot.  I respect the guy's desire to do that, but I'm not going to call him.  That's just not me.  Tell me the price or forget it.
> 
> SO, having bought stupid cheap and regretted it, I'm still looking.  And a bit miffed at myself.



6 stiches in the head is not full force strike from a staff... crushed skull is. but yes get good sai. I have a friend  who has a pair of the shuriedo sai, I love them and have been saving for a pair for some time!!!  very high quality.  there are some folks who make them too from scratch. if so make sure they understand the weapon and are competent knife makers and temper them well!


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## MikeBielat

My Worblington Steele sais just came in. They are a beauty!

I took out my old pair of $50 sais from AWMA or wherever. The chrome is all rusty and I can't believe how off balance and heavy they are. 

Ill post pics or whatever ASAP.


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## DaleDugas

I look forward to your photos when you post them.

Phil makes incredible products.


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## MikeBielat

DaleDugas said:


> I look forward to your photos when you post them.
> 
> Phil makes incredible products.



Here they are!


View attachment $photo 2.jpgView attachment $photo 3.jpgView attachment $photo 4.jpgView attachment $photo 5.jpg

Let me know what you think...


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## harlan

Pretty. What do the kanji say?

They are attractive, and I like the width of the tines. Wouldn't want to deal with rust in the kanji, and I'd like a wider butt and handle for grip. And wider at the base, where tines connected, for when the bo is powering down on you.

Guess I'm too used to Shuriedo at this point. LOL!


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## DaleDugas

The Kanji/Hanzi read Isshin Ryu Karate Do

Very nice!

Phil does incredible work.


Here are photos of my Iron Rulers that he made for me.





















I have no markings on these.


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## MikeBielat

Those are awesome. I have never seen those before. Ill have to look them up and get some info on them and get a little history.


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## DaleDugas

Chinese arts as well as Indonesian arts use a heavier wider tined weapon.


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## Collier1313

I know this thread has been dead for a while but I wanted to know if anyone knew anything about this set of sai from The Martial Arts Store.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GW77SK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  I have Amazon gift cards I've earned via Bing Rewards and thought about ordering a set to learn with and then when/if I get proficient with them ordering a really good set.


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## harlan

Nothing wrong with that idea!  As long as it's for kata/practice, and not bunkai, a cheap pair of sai are great to have around. One should handle different ones to discover what one likes/dislikes before a pricey investment anyway.


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## Grenadier

Collier1313 said:


> I know this thread has been dead for a while but I wanted to know if anyone knew anything about this set of sai from The Martial Arts Store.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GW77SK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  I have Amazon gift cards I've earned via Bing Rewards and thought about ordering a set to learn with and then when/if I get proficient with them ordering a really good set.




Those are your generic sai that are mass-produced, and distributed by the usual folks (AWMA, Century, etc).  

They're rather heavy, and the balance isn't ideal, but at least you can still use them with good mechanics.  There are some cheap sai (typically the ones with the red jewels in them, or the skull and crossbones on them) that are all but impossible to use with proper mechanics...

They're OK for kata use, but your strikes are going to be somewhat slower with them than they would with a well-balanced pair.  

If you want an inexpensive pair that you can learn on, I strongly recommend getting one that's lighter and better balanced, so that you don't have to alter your mechanics to compensate for the weight and the less than ideal balance.  

Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Force-Dem...=1378472680&sr=1-1&keywords=sai+demonstration

Yes, they're more expensive, but at least you'll be developing mechanics that aren't altered to compensate for poor balance.

Think of it in the same way that firearms instructors use a .22 LR pistol to start new shooters.  This way, they learn proper trigger mechanics without having to think about dealing with recoil.  Once they have a good set of trigger mechanics, then you teach them how to shoot the more powerful calibers.  Otherwise, trying to start someone on a .44 magnum will most likely end up with their developing flinching habits.


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## harlan

They do look better...in that the grip has a nicer wrap and there are size options for the petite person.

But how do you know the difference in weight and balance?


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## Grenadier

harlan said:


> They do look better...in that the grip has a nicer wrap and there are size options for the petite person.
> 
> But how do you know the difference in weight and balance?



Just by personal experience.  Back when our dojo started training in Yamanni Ryu saijutsu, there were a lot of techniques that were difficult for me to do correctly because I was trying to use my unbalanced, unwieldy pair (think a step below those generic ones listed earlier).  It was even more difficult for some of our students, until we switched over to the lighter, better balanced sai.  

I did seriously consider grabbing a pair of the lighter sai for myself, but decided that since this was going to be a lifetime endeavor, and not just a passing fad, that I'd make one bigger purchase for myself.  

I had Phil Worbington craft me a pair of sai ideally fitted for my own dimensions.  Even though those sai were only slightly less weighty than the ones listed earlier, they swung with much greater ease, and that's when I could start building up a lot more speed and power in the strikes, with less effort.  



Regarding the lighter pair that I listed above, they're about 30% lighter than the "standard" pair, and have a balance point that is more favorable to letting you make a balanced flipping motion, without tilting your hand, cocking your wrist or elbow, etc.  

Not only will you be using better mechanics, but you'll also be saving a lot of soreness in your joints.  

Once you get a nicer pair, from a maker such as Worbington, Kensho, Shureido, etc., the weight of the sai won't mean nearly as much, since the fine balance from any of the premium ones will make them relatively easy to swing correctly.


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## Flying Crane

Here's a question: It's my understanding that the sai come from a farming implement. Is that true? If so, what is the implement, what is it used for, and how different is the farming version compared to the modern kobudo version?

Looking back into the past, how well balanced do you suspect the sai of Okinawa 400 years ago were? If it was truly a farming implement, and was picked up for use as an improvised weapon, would any of this customizing and balancing etc. have ever come into the picture at all?

If the Garden Weasel was used today as an improvised weapon, do you suppose that 400 years from now, if the tradition were still passed along, we would see some specially modified Garden Weasels, designed to be perfect for combat use? That wouldn't necessarily reflect the reality in which the Garden Weasel first came to be used as a weapon. Would they still be effective in the garden, or would those modifications alter it enough that it becomes a specialized weapon that no longer functions as a garden tool? 

Is there a parallel with today's sai, vs. the sai of 400 years ago?


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## Collier1313

Thank you both I didn't expect such a quick reply.  I had seen the pair you posted Grenadier but was hesitant because of the lack of reviews. 

That's a really good analogy with using a .22 to learn mechanics, that's how my uncle taught me how to shoot when I was a kid.


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## Grenadier

Flying Crane said:


> Here's a question: It's my understanding that the sai come from a farming implement. Is that true? If so, what is the implement, what is it used for, and how different is the farming version compared to the modern kobudo version?
> 
> Looking back into the past, how well balanced do you suspect the sai of Okinawa 400 years ago were? If it was truly a farming implement, and was picked up for use as an improvised weapon, would any of this customizing and balancing etc. have ever come into the picture at all?



These statements are my opinion, and mine only.  

I doubt that the sai were ever used as actual farming implements in Okinawa.  

When you think about it, what task could they really be used for effectively, where another, more appropriate tool, were available?  There were already agricultural flails used for threshing grain, and did a far more efficient job than someone could do with a sai.  Poking holes in the ground for aeration?  Possibly, but for someone trying to aerate a larger surface area of land, doing so with a short metal tool would be far more taxing than using a simple somewhat pointed metal rod, or even a wooden stick with an iron head (similar to a spear).  

What I can say for certain, though, is that weapons similar to the sai were already in use long before the Okinawan area got to it.  It would only seem logical that it was a weapon, not a farming tool.  The design itself hasn't really changed much at all throughout the centuries.  

Since they were designed as weapons from the start, I'm sure that because you had weapon makers of varying skills, that some were better balanced than others, and some were simply horribly made, much like how a blacksmith in the Middle Ages could be capable of making a finely balanced sword that everyone wanted, or one that was so off-balance, that nobody would buy his wares.  

Thus, I believe that there's really no concrete correlation between a sai and a farming tool.  Again, this is my opinion only, and I'm quite sure that there will be folks who strongly disagree with me.

The way I see it, there are other weapons in kobudo that aren't going to really match up with farming tools very well at all.  For example, when you look at those who practice bojutsu, those who are well-knowledged typically want a bo of a given length (usually around 6 feet, give or take), and they want it to be as close to a balanced cylindrical object as possible.  

Bo's used in kobudo aren't going to share much similarity to, say, a random 6 foot long stick that someone happened to tear off a tree, or pick up off the ground.


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## Flying Crane

consistent with my personal thoughts and opinions as well, tho I'm not in a position to know for certain.  thanks.


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## punisher73

From everything I have read, most kobudo tools are farm implements except the sai. The sai as a weapon was documented by being used by the Okinawan police in the 1660's and was also a weapon in China, Japan, and Indonesia.

It doesn't make sense that all of the surrounding countries used it as a weapon and the okinawans used it to farm with.


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