# Taser vs. Pepper spray



## Flea

The other day, a friend offered to give me a taser.  I've been carrying a canister of pepper spray that's old and should probably be disposed of.  After some thought, I accepted his offer (he'll drop it off later.)

I know neither is a perfect solution.  Here are the pros and cons as I see them:

Spray:
* you can use it from a longer distance
* it's cheaper
* it's more legal
* you have to worry about the wind direction
* its effectiveness depends on whether the target is under the influence of __

Taser:
* it's more effective in stopping someone
* a 9v battery is easier than re-ordering a new canister
* you have to be at arms-length to use it
* more legal implications
* you have to get training (I'd want it anyway)

Both:
* either one is a good visual deterrent just by carrying it
* an assailant can get it away from you and use it himself
* again with the potential legal implications
* I'm afraid of getting over-reactive and using them unnecessarily.  In reality this isn't likely, but these are rough times in my already rough neighborhood.

 I've researched it, and at least for the moment I like the taser option better.  I'm sure that I'm missing several points with the above and I'd love some more education on this.  I'm sure there's no single "right" answer as to which is better, or if it's better to use something else entirely or nothing at all.  Ultimatley my biggest SD is going to be moving to a safer neighborhood, but that will take some time.

I'd want to take it in any case, but is training required for owning a Taser?  And where can I get that?

Also with the pepper spray, how long does that stuff last?  Mine is about 3 years old.  And is there a correct way to dispose of it?

Thanks from the bottom of my paranoid little heart.


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## jks9199

That's NOT a Taser; it's a stun gun.  Basically, a cattleprod.  And it only works through inflicting pain on the person.  They're not particularly reliable, though they may (stress MAY) intimidate someone.

You can purchase a civilian Taser, the Taser C2, which is much more likely to be effective.  Essentially, the Taser, assuming a good hit, will incapicitate most people by locking up the muscles.  It makes them all contract at once, overriding neuromuscular communication.  And the C2 does it for 30 seconds...  Time to get away and get help.

The major drawback of the Taser is that it is a one shot weapon, and it requires a proper hit to work to its best capacity.  If you don't get that good hit, it's not much different from the stun gun.

Regarding the OC... it does expire, and you're about due to replace it.  The charge that propels it can leak out of the container.  Dispose of the container like you would any spray canister.  (Or do what I do; use it for things like deterring critters around the home as long as it'll spray...)


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## Archangel M

I think that some of those expiration dates are moneymakers to some extent. I have some old cans about the house that still work fine. I'd fork the cash over for a fresh one if I was going to depend on it though. Better safe then sorry.


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## tellner

Both stun guns and pepper spray are the square root of worthless for defense against a serious attack by someone who is trying to commit a violent felony against you.


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## Flea

Tellner, can you elaborate on that?

A few months ago, I tried to order a C2 but got nowhere because I didn't have a credit card at the time.  It's also really expensive on my budget, and as a one-shot deal I can't _practice_ with it.  That makes me nervous.  

Still combing the real-estate listings ...


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## MJS

I'm not going to speak for Tellner, but I think him and I may be thinking along the same lines here, so I'll toss in my thoughts.  If we think about it, a tool, such as a taser, stun gun or pepper spray is only good if a) the person carrying it knows how to use it for maximum effectiveness, b) if it can be deployed quickly and c) if it was already in your hand prior to being used.

So, we look at the violent felony attack.....probably something thats going to happen pretty quick, with a relentless assault on the victim.  Are they going to have a chance to reach into their purse, pocket, etc., pull it out, aim it, etc.?  You're probably better off using empty hand skills over trying to draw a weapon.

Again, I may be wrong in my assumption of the meaning in his post, but thats the impression that I got from it.


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## Bill Mattocks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_weapon



> *Contact weapons' effectiveness as self-defense weapons*
> 
> These devices are usually advertised as effective "personal defense" weapons. However, they may give the wielder a false sense of security and power. Contact-based electroshock weapons can need more "continuous and uninterrupted" contact time with the intended target than is usually advertised, well above 5 seconds, to fully stop a determined assailant, more time than is often available to stop a physically superior or better-trained opponent in close unarmed combat. In such an event, likely outcomes would be the assailant breaking the electroshock weapon, or taking it away and using it against the defender. For these reasons, many security operators and martial arts experts have expressed doubt about these devices' effectiveness against determined, physically strong aggressors in hand-to-hand combat situations, and about their value as a defense weapon in general.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_weapon#cite_note-19

http://www.ou.edu/oupd/zappers.htm


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## Carol

> So, we look at the violent felony attack.....probably something thats going to happen pretty quick, with a relentless assault on the victim. Are they going to have a chance to reach into their purse, pocket, etc., pull it out, aim it, etc.? You're probably better off using empty hand skills over trying to draw a weapon.



Agreed.  Also the effects of OC spray and stun guns can be overcome with sufficient adrenaline.

Opinions may vary on this but personally I am not fond of having defense tools on display.  I think they are more effective when deployed as a surprise, and I think that the victims that have been unfortunate enough to have a weapon/tool used against them have been victims that had the tool on display, giving the BG a chance to focus on it and to plan on how they were going to capture it before the victim realized anything was wrong.  The power of surprise is then given to the attacker - a power that could have been retained by the defender.


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## KenpoTex

OC is for dealing with people who are being belligerent or non-compliant (as opposed to combative), or as a set-up for empty-hand techniques.  It sucks to get sprayed but it won't stop anyone who is serious about attacking you.

Stun-guns are good for nothing...except zapping people just to watch them jump 

Tasers are a _control_ tool best employed by LE/security/etc. who also have the option to escalate to deadly force should the situation warrant such.

Bottom line...If empty-hand techniques are not enough, use a knife, impact weapon, or firearm.  Also, forget the idea of using the tool as a "visual deterrent"...if you're not justified (and willing) to use it immediately, you shouldn't pull it out.


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## theletch1

Here's a quick test for you.  Toss either of those items in the bottom of your purse (which is where they will inevitably wind up) have a friend attempt to attack you and see how many times they can touch you before you can dig it out.  If you're carrying the spray on a key chain see how many times they can touch you before you can get it operational.  Remember that you're doing this in a safe environment and triple your time doing it with an adrenaline rush going on.


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## Flea

You've all given me a lot to think about.  

My main concern is that my neighborhood has a _severe_ crack problem.  That means lots of robberies, lots of prostitution, and lots of "creative" behavior.  The cheap housing means that there's a few people with severe mental illness - I don't begrudge anyone poor health, but I also don't need to be attacked when some of them get belligerent.  In short, it's an ugly place and I spend a fair amount of time feeling like a cowering rabbit.  I'm not interested in kicking ***, I just want to live a normal life without ... feeling like a cowering rabbit.  It's nice to be able to answer a fried chicken craving at the grocery store at 9pm.  I'm not asking for much.

I'm nowhere near the point where I trust my MA skills to get me by.  As the economy gets worse things here continue their downward spiral and I need something.  None of the options I've found are perfect, but I feel that using _something_ is better than nothing at all.  At least until my MA gets passable, and probably past that point until they come out with a form of crack that endows people with reason and -human strength.

*edit* when I carry my pepper spray, it's _always_ in my hand with a finger firmly on the button.  No fishing around in pockets for Flea.  And I practiced with it when I first bought it. You make a good point though.


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## jks9199

Archangel M said:


> I think that some of those expiration dates are moneymakers to some extent. I have some old cans about the house that still work fine. I'd fork the cash over for a fresh one if I was going to depend on it though. Better safe then sorry.


I agree!  Though I have seen some canisters that did lose the propellant pressure.  But we also test our work stuff  more frequently (or at least were supposed to!) than a civilian will test their self defense pepper spray.  

I bet most people don't even test it once...


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## jks9199

Flea said:


> You've all given me a lot to think about.
> 
> My main concern is that my neighborhood has a _severe_ crack problem.  That means lots of robberies, lots of prostitution, and lots of "creative" behavior.  The cheap housing means that there's a few people with severe mental illness - I don't begrudge anyone poor health, but I also don't need to be attacked when some of them get belligerent.  In short, it's an ugly place and I spend a fair amount of time feeling like a cowering rabbit.  I'm not interested in kicking ***, I just want to live a normal life without ... feeling like a cowering rabbit.  It's nice to be able to answer a fried chicken craving at the grocery store at 9pm.  I'm not asking for much.
> 
> I'm nowhere near the point where I trust my MA skills to get me by.  As the economy gets worse things here continue their downward spiral and I need something.  None of the options I've found are perfect, but I feel that using _something_ is better than nothing at all.  At least until my MA gets passable, and probably past that point until they come out with a form of crack that endows people with reason and -human strength.
> 
> *edit* when I carry my pepper spray, it's _always_ in my hand with a finger firmly on the button.  No fishing around in pockets for Flea.  And I practiced with it when I first bought it. You make a good point though.


It's very possible that your best choice, if you can do so, is to obtain a concealed weapon permit, and carry a gun.  

As others have pointed out, most less than lethal self defense tools (tasers, batons, OC, etc), are only part of a realistic defensive scheme.  For many people, the best choice to really be safe is to be able to carry a gun.  Guns have a much better chance of actually stopping a highly aggressive, motivated attacker much more quickly.  As Kenpotex said, pepper spray is NOT at all reliable except in narrow applications, and the Taser was really designed as a tool to obtain control of a combative subject -- not to stop them.


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## MJS

Flea said:


> You've all given me a lot to think about.
> 
> My main concern is that my neighborhood has a _severe_ crack problem. That means lots of robberies, lots of prostitution, and lots of "creative" behavior. The cheap housing means that there's a few people with severe mental illness - I don't begrudge anyone poor health, but I also don't need to be attacked when some of them get belligerent. In short, it's an ugly place and I spend a fair amount of time feeling like a cowering rabbit. I'm not interested in kicking ***, I just want to live a normal life without ... feeling like a cowering rabbit. It's nice to be able to answer a fried chicken craving at the grocery store at 9pm. I'm not asking for much.
> 
> I'm nowhere near the point where I trust my MA skills to get me by. As the economy gets worse things here continue their downward spiral and I need something. None of the options I've found are perfect, but I feel that using _something_ is better than nothing at all. At least until my MA gets passable, and probably past that point until they come out with a form of crack that endows people with reason and -human strength.
> 
> *edit* when I carry my pepper spray, it's _always_ in my hand with a finger firmly on the button. No fishing around in pockets for Flea. And I practiced with it when I first bought it. You make a good point though.


 
Yes, I know, it is a shame that people can't go out and have to be a prisoner in their own home because of the scum on the street.  I think you're already off to a good start by having the spray in your hand.  IMO, thats just like already having your car keys in your hand before you reach your car.  Of course, be sure to carry so as to not give it away that you have something. 

As far as a gun goes....once again, I'll preface this by saying I'm not anti gun.  However, unless you live in an area where open carry is legal, you're not going to want to advertise that you have it, just like you dont want to advertise a taser, spray, etc.  However, if its in a purse, under a jacket, etc., like it was already said, a good test would be to have a friend 'attack' you and see if you're capable of pulling the gun.  Obviously a fake gun should be used for this training.  If you can't pull it, aim it and shoot, while moving, under pressure, under attack, etc., then IMHO, its no better than any other tool that we could carry.


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## theletch1

A gun is out of the question for her.  She stated (though gave no detail) that she refused to carry one.  I think that, while the OP was about the difference between pepper spray and tazers, she's looking for a good bridge weapon to pass her until she's confident in her martial arts training.  My best advice would be to attend as many womens self defense seminars as she can in the mean time to give her some good, gross motor skill techniques but more importantly some good advice on the "How not to need these techniques in the first place info."


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## elder999

KenpoTex said:


> OC is for dealing with people who are being belligerent or non-compliant (as opposed to combative), or as a set-up for empty-hand techniques. It sucks to get sprayed but it won't stop anyone who is serious about attacking you.
> 
> Stun-guns are good for nothing...except zapping people just to watch them jump
> 
> Tasers are a _control_ tool best employed by LE/security/etc. who also have the option to escalate to deadly force should the situation warrant such.
> 
> *Bottom line...If empty-hand techniques are not enough, use a knife, impact weapon, or firearm. Also, forget the idea of using the tool as a "visual deterrent"...if you're not justified (and willing) to use it immediately, you shouldn't pull it out.*


 
What he said.

I've seen really crazy guys put the stun guns on themselves and just smile.

Part of law enforcement training here is to be sprayed with pepper spray and defend yourself hand-to-hand against 2 or 3 aggressors.

A local restaraunt actually adds 15% capsaicin solution to their "nuclear grade *HOT*" chile. 15% is the same concentration found in most pepper sprays! (_Horeman's Haven,_ Cerillos Rd., Santa Fe, New Mexico-_it's so good it *hurts!*_ :lol: )

That said, since a gun is out of the question, I'd go with the bear repellant pepper spray that expands into a foam on contact. Not really made in a size that can be carried in a purse or on a keychain, though-not to mention it's _probably_ illegal to use that way in a few places....(on the other hand, it's legal to buy it everywhere, and if it's legal to use pepper spray, you can just plead ignorance. Don't reply to this option, though, except to say that you *won't do it*, as these posts are a record....)


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## Flea

> Don't reply to this option, though, except to say that you *won't do it*, as these posts are a record....



*Won't do it.*  :lol:

Of course ... isn't it also agin' the law to jump somebody and pound them senseless?  Just asking, is all.


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## sgtmac_46

elder999 said:


> What he said.
> 
> I've seen really crazy guys put the stun guns on themselves and just smile.
> 
> Part of law enforcement training here is to be sprayed with pepper spray and defend yourself hand-to-hand against 2 or 3 aggressors.
> 
> A local restaraunt actually adds 15% capsaicin solution to their "nuclear grade *HOT*" chile. 15% is the same concentration found in most pepper sprays! (_Horeman's Haven,_ Cerillos Rd., Santa Fe, New Mexico-_it's so good it *hurts!*_ :lol: )
> 
> That said, since a gun is out of the question, I'd go with the bear repellant pepper spray that expands into a foam on contact. Not really made in a size that can be carried in a purse or on a keychain, though-not to mention it's _probably_ illegal to use that way in a few places....(on the other hand, it's legal to buy it everywhere, and if it's legal to use pepper spray, you can just plead ignorance. Don't reply to this option, though, except to say that you *won't do it*, as these posts are a record....)



Percentage is not actually a measure of perceived temperature of the solution, but rather the percentage of concentration.......but here's the rub.......purity of batch effects heat, not the concentration of the mixture.......SHU is a more accurate, yet still not entirely accurate measure.

I've been sprayed with a variety of different OC Sprays, including some of the leading brands.......Federal Labs First Defense spray, which is a very popular law enforcement spray, is approximately 500,000 SHU........and is considered 'Food Grade'........it's also a VERY POOR manstopper.....I can not only fight through it all day long, I can spray it in my mouth.

On the other hand, Fox Labs 2% solution is rated at 5.3 Million SHU.......it's also what my department carries.  It is fast acting, hard hitting and i've yet to have anyone who hasn't been extremely adversely affected.......that's not 100% incapacitation, but it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 90%.

One should always remember that OC Spray should be counted on as, first and foremost, a distraction tool......one should not anticipate incapacitation.  If one gets incapacitation it should be looked at as a bonus.



Foam is not a good alternative either....nor is stream......the best bet is a cone spray for self-defense.  The key with applying OC Spray is to saturate the eyes, nose and mouth thoroughly.


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## sgtmac_46

Flea said:


> *Won't do it.*  :lol:
> 
> Of course ... isn't it also agin' the law to jump somebody and pound them senseless?  Just asking, is all.



When picking a spray, make sure it's potent AND has a reliable delivery mechanism, in cone spray, not stream or foam.

I recommend the following OC sprays in order.....

Fox Labs 5.3 http://www.foxlabs.com/home.shtml
Sabre Red http://www.sabrered.com/
Zarc http://www.zarc.com/

As to platforms, i'd recommend the Tigerlight T100 

With Sabre Red cone spray insert.  About $90.00, it's a stable, refillable platform that also provides a highly useful LED flashlight that's very portable and easy to use.  http://www.tigerlight.net/Home_Page.html





The Taser C2 is a very serviceable, yet more expensive option.  But for stopping power it's without compare.  It also cycles for 30 seconds, allowing it to be dropped on the ground, while shocking the suspect, to cover your retreat.  And if it's lost in this manner, Taser will replace it if you provide a valid police report.

As for training, any Law Enforcement Taser M26/X26 instructor can provide the class, so contact your local police department.  Last time I checked Taser International actually provides a credit when you buy the C2 which pays the officer $100.00 for your training which means it shouldn't cost you any extra....check with them to see if that is still the case. http://www.taser.com/pages/default.aspx



And, finally, remember that tools like the Taser and OC Sprays should only be a part, not all, of your self-defense plans and contingency strategies.  They are very useful, but be prepared with Plan B, Plan C, and Plan D should Plan A fail.......and the best self-defense strategy is situational awareness and avoiding confrontations before they occur.


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## tellner

Flea said:


> Tellner, can you elaborate on that?
> 
> A few months ago, I tried to order a C2 but got nowhere because I didn't have a credit card at the time.  It's also really expensive on my budget, and as a one-shot deal I can't _practice_ with it.  That makes me nervous.
> 
> Still combing the real-estate listings ...



KenpoTex answered the question nicely and accurately. 

Neither stun guns nor OC will stop a motivated attacker. 

OC is recommended for "non-compliant non-violent suspects" which means that Bubba doesn't want to get into the car but isn't about to pick up a cinder block and hit you with it by way of punctuation. So you get his attention by hosing him down. Works fine against prisoners through the bars of a cell. Works great against non-violent protestors who are already handcuffed. Doesn't work for squat against someone who is serious about hurting you. The professional literature and a whole bunch of controlled experiments (cf. Phil Messina), a number of dead cops, plenty of personal stories have settled the issue. More details if you really want them.

I also don't like relying on a weapon which is completely at the mercy of the weather, will probably affect me even if it's deployed properly, can't be used in enclosed spaces, makes my attacker stronger and which I know won't stop fat, asthmatic middle-aged me let alone a young, strong, angry guy.

Stun guns? I've been zapped several times in training and just out of curiosity. Some of them had been specially modified to give a stronger zap than is normally allowed. A hornet sting hurts more. Mr. Ayoob uses it as a signal to start firing in some of his advanced firearms classes. So far nobody's fallen to the ground and started twitching. He has gotten punched a few times when the amped-up student reflexively struck out at the source of the pain. 

The fine print on the last two stun guns I owned suggested that you should hold the contacts against the eyes, throat or genitals for four to six seconds continuously. I maintain that if you can do that you are already in complete control of the situation.

Tasers? Yes, they work if you hit with both darts. But they work as a way of temporarily immobilizing. When the electricity stops so does the effect. That's great if you're about to land on him with handcuffs and a swarm of officers. Otherwise you're left with a guy who's still capable of hurting you. You've lost the element of surprise. And you've used up your one shot. Unless you're going to take those few seconds to start stomping the bad guy's head really hard you really haven't gained much. And if you're going to do that you might as well shoot him with a real gun as far as the laws concerning deadly force are concerned.

Besides, Tasers are very expensive. And each shot costs more than an entire box of pistol cartridges.


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## BLACK LION

There is no one stop shop here. 
A taser or stun gun does not work all the time and neither does oc propellant or pepper spray.  
I know a 1 million volt stun gun is a major deterrent simply for the audible and visual effect it has. 
Oc or pepper spray may work as well but there is a risk of just making the situation worse or affecting yourself or others whom the spray is not intended for. 

I look at them as "use in conjuntion with" tools. 

I am an advocate for bright flashlights with striker bezels...preferably 150 lumens or more.   
I am also an advocate for carrying a fixed blade and at least one concealed folder. but thats just me. 
I also am and advocate for carrying a 1 million volt stun gun which is about the size of a cell phone. 
If you can carry a gun to then do it. but then again...thats just me. 

Kimber does make a pretty good oc propellant that blasts 15 feet... I would rather blind them with bright light before using it and know I had a blade or something else to back me up if it just pisses them off...


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## Deaf Smith

tellner said:


> Both stun guns and pepper spray are the square root of worthless for defense against a serious attack by someone who is trying to commit a violent felony against you.


 
He's telling the truth. Go look on a pepper spray can or a stun gun. You will see the warning lable saying not to use it on a violent person who may have a weapon.

And as Ken said, use something better.

You want to stop a motivated attacker? Then you need the law firm of Smith & Wesson and back it up with a 12 guage injunction.

Deaf


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## LuckyKBoxer

You know Flea, after reading your post describing your environment at and around your home, I had something come to mind..

It sounds more likely then not any trouble you might run into will come from a local source, meaning they will probably know where you live if they are going to mess with you, and if you are going to mess with them with a stun gun or pepper spray, I think you may end up pissing them off and should be prepared for the consequences. I do not know if a gun truely is out of your option list, but if it is, then maybe you can look at moving elsewhere... Obviously everyone has their limitations on options, but while a stun gun or pepper spray may work temporarily to get you out of a tough spot, you might want to make sure you are prepared if they decide to get revenge...I am not saying do not defend yourself, I am simply saying if you do, just be prepared for the possible follow up..

just a thought.. and stay safe.


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## seasoned

Any action taken in self defense may cause a retaliation for sure, as LuckyBoxer has stated. In any self defense scenario one of the first things taught is awareness of surroundings, and stay out of high crime areas. In your case, you live in one of these areas. Your options are many, as shown by all the posts, weapons galore to pick from. No one wants to be a prisoner in their home, but staying in past dark would be my first option for sure. After this I would pick one close in weapon, because of the surprise factor involved in most attacks, where they are on you very fast. My choice would be a knife, and I would try to become very good at using it. Unless you are trained in the use of many weapons, your chance of having to pick from many options in the heat of battle are not good. If they are at a distance, run, if they are on you, pick a target in and around their face, and slash. Until you are able to move to another area, your home should be a safe haven, check all windows and locks, and let awareness become your best friend. Once you start any defensive action, follow through is the most important rule.


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> He's telling the truth. Go look on a pepper spray can or a stun gun. You will see the warning lable saying not to use it on a violent person who may have a weapon.
> 
> And as Ken said, use something better.
> 
> You want to stop a motivated attacker? Then you need the law firm of Smith & Wesson and back it up with a 12 guage injunction.
> 
> Deaf


 That's true.....unfortunately in too many places in our society Smith and Wesson have been taken off the table for the public.

OC Spray, properly understood and properly applied, is an effective weapon against violent individuals......yes, there are highly motivated individuals who can fight the effects, but the key word is 'fight'..........99.9% of people are still effected by high potency OC sprays........5% or so just have high pain tolerances......but they are still effected.

Physical self defense skills like punching and kicking become more effective when the opponent is fighting the effects of OC Spray........I can say from personal experience that I can still fight while under the effects of OC Spray......but i'm not 100%.  Like the vast majority of individuals, I get walleye vision, my ability to see is restricted to snap shots, the distance I can see is about 5 to 10 feet.

So spraying someone in the face, even if it doesn't stop them, ENHANCES your ability to follow up with other techniques.  It may be very difficult to land a hard punch or kick on a particular violent individual......but a face full of OC Spray will increase your odd's of landing good hard hits by providing a distraction for him to fight through.

The mistake, however, is to put all our eggs in the OC basket.......understanding what OC Spray will do and won't do is key to using it effectively.


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## sgtmac_46

tellner said:


> KenpoTex answered the question nicely and accurately.
> 
> Neither stun guns nor OC will stop a motivated attacker.
> 
> OC is recommended for "non-compliant non-violent suspects" which means that Bubba doesn't want to get into the car but isn't about to pick up a cinder block and hit you with it by way of punctuation. So you get his attention by hosing him down. Works fine against prisoners through the bars of a cell. Works great against non-violent protestors who are already handcuffed. Doesn't work for squat against someone who is serious about hurting you. The professional literature and a whole bunch of controlled experiments (cf. Phil Messina), a number of dead cops, plenty of personal stories have settled the issue. More details if you really want them.
> 
> I also don't like relying on a weapon which is completely at the mercy of the weather, will probably affect me even if it's deployed properly, can't be used in enclosed spaces, makes my attacker stronger and which I know won't stop fat, asthmatic middle-aged me let alone a young, strong, angry guy.
> 
> Stun guns? I've been zapped several times in training and just out of curiosity. Some of them had been specially modified to give a stronger zap than is normally allowed. A hornet sting hurts more. Mr. Ayoob uses it as a signal to start firing in some of his advanced firearms classes. So far nobody's fallen to the ground and started twitching. He has gotten punched a few times when the amped-up student reflexively struck out at the source of the pain.
> 
> The fine print on the last two stun guns I owned suggested that you should hold the contacts against the eyes, throat or genitals for four to six seconds continuously. I maintain that if you can do that you are already in complete control of the situation.
> 
> Tasers? Yes, they work if you hit with both darts. But they work as a way of temporarily immobilizing. When the electricity stops so does the effect. That's great if you're about to land on him with handcuffs and a swarm of officers. Otherwise you're left with a guy who's still capable of hurting you. You've lost the element of surprise. And you've used up your one shot. Unless you're going to take those few seconds to start stomping the bad guy's head really hard you really haven't gained much. And if you're going to do that you might as well shoot him with a real gun as far as the laws concerning deadly force are concerned.
> 
> Besides, Tasers are very expensive. And each shot costs more than an entire box of pistol cartridges.


 The lesson isn't that OC Spray is ineffective........having been on the giving AND receiving end of both training and REAL WORLD street incidents of OC exposure, I can assure you that the problem isn't that OC is ineffective, but that there are some unrealistic expectations......and some OC formulations that are pretty anemic.

OC should be used aggressively as part, not all, of a plan of action.  I use OC as a counter-measure, a distraction device.  If I have a combative individual, the OC spray is used to alter all or at least part of his focus.  Experiencing intense eye, nose, mouth and facial burning that continues to increase allows the opponent to be distracted which, even if it doesn't overwhelm him, means his focus is not entirely on me anymore......meaning he is no longer fighting with all his focus.

About 90% of folks, however, will be shut down almost entirely by an OC Spray of proper potency.

But because OC spray effects vision, and reduces vision it's an excellent precursor to.......RUNNING AWAY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cRSury1Vnc&feature=related




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nebzumPp-A4&feature=related

The Taser is generally more effective, however. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CgNjrXLOg&feature=related


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## Flea

I wanted to thank everyone again for your thoughtful responses.  I'm on a very busy work schedule this weekend and won't be able to reply properly right now, but I wanted to get back to you.


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## tellner

sgtmac, not useless but useless against a motivated person who wants to commit serious violence against you.

I've been on the receiving end of some of the special police-only formulations. I wasn't on drugs. Twice it came as a complete surprise. It wasn't pleasant, but I immediately found a goal and achieved it. The stuff didn't stop me from doing what I set out to do -  getting out of the room, finding water and washing my eyes out.


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## Deaf Smith

Ok gang.. if you are going to use OC spray here is my recomedations:

1. Get more than one of the same kind and actually go outside and find out just how far it can reach, how big is the 'cloud' (or narrow the streem if it's that type of OC.) What the wind does to the stream. In short, know your weapons capability.

2. Understand the spray's safey and practice getting it off quickly without looking. This is a form of weapons handling. Practice it alot.

3. Put it where either hand can operate it.

4. If you use it, backup (if you can) while firing so the cloud does not contact you. Keep in mind the wind and what it can do for you or against you.

5. Channel your attacker into a kill zone. It can be a hall way, door way, between cars, two or more attackers jammed up together, etc... In otherwords limit their ability to evade the spary.

6. With an empty spray can, practice other SD techniques to learn to fight with more than one type of weapon at once. You would be suprised how many people focus on one weapon and forget they have other ways to fight. You can do 'FOF' this why with other people. See if you can get it out in time or during a struggle.

As for the stun gun, you have to hug the attacker for a few seconds for it to be effective (if it gets a circut.. that is a good contact with them.) Hope you can hang on while they take umbridge to what you are doing.

Deaf


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## Archangel M

OC is a great force multiplier for your empty hand skills and can give ya a second or two to access a better weapon...with the added plus of incapacitating or running off the BG on the odd occasion. 

If you have it in hand when you need it. 

No tool is useless if you know its limitations and applications.


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## KenpoTex

To add to Deaf's post...

If you're going to carry OC, I personally think *you should be exposed to it* so you are familiar with the effects.  When you're dealing with joe-crackhead (who you probably should have just shot) is not the time to find out how annoying OC is.   In my [thankfully] limited experience with the stuff, when you spray it _everyone_ gets a taste.

If you're not willing to take a direct shot, spray a cloud in the air and walk through it so you still get a taste.  Have a hose or sink nearby so you can flush your eyes and a fan so you can get some airflow.  It might also be a good idea to have a friend with you as a "spotter" in case you have a bad reaction.


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## sgtmac_46

tellner said:


> sgtmac, not useless but useless against a motivated person who wants to commit serious violence against you.
> 
> I've been on the receiving end of some of the special police-only formulations. I wasn't on drugs. Twice it came as a complete surprise. It wasn't pleasant, but I immediately found a goal and achieved it. The stuff didn't stop me from doing what I set out to do -  getting out of the room, finding water and washing my eyes out.



A burst of OC Spray in to your face makes it far easier for me to attain my goal......of a rear naked choke.  It's far from useless against a motivated person.

As for 'Special police-only formulations' most of those are from Federal Labs First Defense.........which are pretty much food grade useless.......if you could be more specific about which formulation you were exposed to it would be enlightening.....the majority of agencies use the First Defense, with Sabre Red (more effective) being a close second, followed by Zarc and a small minority using products like Fox Labs 5.3.........which is night and day different from First Defense in effectiveness.

The first problem with First Defense is the water based carrier, which slows down the effectiveness time......it can take up to 5 or 10 seconds for First Defense sprays to take effect, whereas Fox Labs or Zarc are almost instantaneous.  Furthermore the perception of heat between First Defense and Fox Labs is like the difference between getting slapped and kicked in the head by a mule.

Choosing the right formulation is a huge variable in OC Sprays.

Finally, by your own admission.......you claim to have achieved your goal, which was getting to water........but that very admission ILLUSTRATES the effectiveness of OC Spray.........your goal BEFORE getting sprayed wasn't to get to water......the OC Spray changed your entire focus toward getting to water to eliminate the burning sensation......that's the POINT!  It's about changing focus.


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> Ok gang.. if you are going to use OC spray here is my recomedations:
> 
> 1. Get more than one of the same kind and actually go outside and find out just how far it can reach, how big is the 'cloud' (or narrow the streem if it's that type of OC.) What the wind does to the stream. In short, know your weapons capability.
> 
> 2. Understand the spray's safey and practice getting it off quickly without looking. This is a form of weapons handling. Practice it alot.
> 
> 3. Put it where either hand can operate it.
> 
> 4. If you use it, backup (if you can) while firing so the cloud does not contact you. Keep in mind the wind and what it can do for you or against you.
> 
> 5. Channel your attacker into a kill zone. It can be a hall way, door way, between cars, two or more attackers jammed up together, etc... In otherwords limit their ability to evade the spary.
> 
> 6. With an empty spray can, practice other SD techniques to learn to fight with more than one type of weapon at once. You would be suprised how many people focus on one weapon and forget they have other ways to fight. You can do 'FOF' this why with other people. See if you can get it out in time or during a struggle.
> 
> As for the stun gun, you have to hug the attacker for a few seconds for it to be effective (if it gets a circut.. that is a good contact with them.) Hope you can hang on while they take umbridge to what you are doing.
> 
> Deaf


 I'll add that with a contact stun gun, you HAVE to be aggressive with it's usage, and target VITAL POINTS..........the groin/pelvic girdle and the side of the neck are primary targets.......you can't expect to merely touch the opponent there and drop them, you have to PURSUE and drive through the target with the stun gun as if you're using it almost a striking weapon.


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## sgtmac_46

Archangel M said:


> OC is a great force multiplier for your empty hand skills and can give ya a second or two to access a better weapon...with the added plus of incapacitating or running off the BG on the odd occasion.
> 
> If you have it in hand when you need it.
> 
> No tool is useless if you know its limitations and applications.



Understanding the nature of the thing and what it will do is key.......even those who argue that they can fight through the effects of OC Spray, i.e. being able to get themselves to water after a brief fight........admit that their entire mindset focus shifted partially or completely to thoughts of finding water and reducing the symptoms.......and if that's all you achieve, you've achieved a greater advantage than before you used the OC Spray.

If OC Spray reduces a guy from 100% effectiveness to, say, 60% or 70% BEFORE I have to even engage in the physical part of the encounter then it's a very useful tool indeed!


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## Carol

sgtmac_46 said:


> I'll add that with a contact stun gun, you HAVE to be aggressive with it's usage, and target VITAL POINTS..........the groin/pelvic girdle and the side of the neck are primary targets.......you can't expect to merely touch the opponent there and drop them, you have to PURSUE and drive through the target with the stun gun as if you're using it almost a striking weapon.



One other thing.  

To use a stun gun, one must be within arms reach of the attacker.

One must not be in contact with the attacker when the stun gun is deployed.  Electricity will find the shortest path to ground and it doesn't care whose body it has to go through.


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## sgtmac_46

Carol Kaur said:


> One other thing.
> 
> To use a stun gun, one must be within arms reach of the attacker.
> 
> One must not be in contact with the attacker when the stun gun is deployed.  Electricity will find the shortest path to ground and it doesn't care whose body it has to go through.



That's actually not true.  The electricity takes the shortest path between the two probes on the end of the electrode, they don't go to ground as the stun gun provides it's own ground.  That's why a stun gun is only mildly effective because the only area stimulated by the stun gun is the muscle and tissue between the two electrodes on the end.

Even the Taser only stimulates the area between the two darts, and you'll only be shocked if you stick your hand or some part of your body between the two points.


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## Deaf Smith

Good gang. Now how about we codify this and make a sticky on how to train and use pepper spray. And the description of what types of pepper spray there are and some idea as to faults and virtues.

Ken's right about spraying yourself a bit (man I hate that) to understand what it will do (but don't do the same thing with a gun... sure don't need to find out what it can do that way!) Add that as number 7.

Carol, I think the stun gun cannot pass through others cause it has a very low amperage (sending abilty) but very high voltage. But everyone do remember that since you have to get into contact range to use it, the attacker may try to take it from you, or just knee and elobow you to death. I prefer the pepper spray to the stun gun.

Deaf


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## Carol

Deaf Smith said:


> Carol, I think the stun gun cannot pass through others cause it has a very low amperage (sending abilty) but very high voltage. But everyone do remember that since you have to get into contact range to use it, the attacker may try to take it from you, or just knee and elobow you to death. I prefer the pepper spray to the stun gun.
> 
> Deaf



Sarge is right...it goes from one electrode to another.  I was thinking about a arc from a source like a Van Der Graaf. Sorry guys...too much stress and not enough sleep. Too embarassing.   

Personally I prefer to keep a distance as well.   I'd rather shine a bright light,  swing my lapop bag, run like hell  ... anything that keeps me out of striking range of the BG.  I don't carry OC spray now but I may in the future for similar reasons.  

I'm not a big fan of stun guns (for myself).   If I am close enough to a BG to be able to reach a vital target with my short arms, then something bad has happened.  I don't think I'd be relying on a stun gun at that point.  That's even before the legal issues (of living on a state line).


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## Flea

Well, I think this thread has taken me full circle.  I still don't know which way to go on this, but now I have a much more literate view as to _why_ I don't know which way to go, and a more bewildering array of options.  Thanks guys.

  :lol:

I'm still going to accept my friend's stun gun simply because he was kind enough to offer it.  I don't have to carry it all the time, but it'll be a nice option just in case.  

LuckyKBoxer, your answer is by far the best and that's a work in progress.  I've been driving around my chosen (new) neighborhood with a notebook copying down addresses and realtor phone numbers as I find them. My main obstacle there is my low income, so I have to strike a delicate balance between "affordable foreclosure" and "not so broken down that I can't afford to fix it."  It's a challenge, but I'm enjoying the process. Best of all, I've looked up the crime stats for this area and it's dull as dishwater. 

In the meantime my pepper spray, new stun gun, and Killer Hound will have to do until I get passable with Systema.  I thank you all for the helpful discussion.


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## sgtmac_46

Carol Kaur said:


> Sarge is right...it goes from one electrode to another.  I was thinking about a arc from a source like a Van Der Graaf. Sorry guys...too much stress and not enough sleep. Too embarassing.
> 
> Personally I prefer to keep a distance as well.   I'd rather shine a bright light,  swing my lapop bag, run like hell  ... anything that keeps me out of striking range of the BG.  I don't carry OC spray now but I may in the future for similar reasons.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of stun guns (for myself).   If I am close enough to a BG to be able to reach a vital target with my short arms, then something bad has happened.  I don't think I'd be relying on a stun gun at that point.  That's even before the legal issues (of living on a state line).



Stun guns are a lot like using pressure points.......it has it's place, but it's most useful when you are physically more powerful than your opponent, and are looking for a way to subdue them with minimum damage and effort.


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## BLACK LION

sgtmac_46 said:


> I'll add that with a contact stun gun, you HAVE to be aggressive with it's usage, and target VITAL POINTS..........the groin/pelvic girdle and the side of the neck are primary targets.......you can't expect to merely touch the opponent there and drop them, you have to PURSUE and drive through the target with the stun gun as if you're using it almost a striking weapon.


 
Hence the prongs... good post , I agree completely. 

I used to carry both oc and a stun gun along with a folding blade and flashlight. 
It wasnt till I ditched the oc and the stun gun and started carrying a larger fixed blade on my hip that I noticed a "deterrence" simply by the mere sight of it. Just the sight alone is enough for most. Even the more hardened ones still understand the sign language coming from my demeanor and my hip.... Its clear as day. 
I too live in a "bad area" in wich people are stabbed and shot often along with other despicable acts... I have had to adapt to it by speaking thier language... I walk with conviction, and a big blade on my hip... the big stuff is a couple blocks away if not in the car. "they" understand completely and often comment at random "damn, wouldnt want to get poked with that"... 
not to mention the 9" light with the striker tip.... 

In my opinion I would rather have more and not than need more and not have....
I pray that I never have to pound meat with my blade or any tool for that matter but I am fordamnsure they do too ...thats the point  


just an opinion guys... 

Respectfully 
Broderick


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## Deaf Smith

Carol Kaur said:


> I'm not a big fan of stun guns (for myself). If I am close enough to a BG to be able to reach a vital target with my short arms, then something bad has happened. I don't think I'd be relying on a stun gun at that point. That's even before the legal issues (of living on a state line).


 
Now maybe if they would make a pepper spray/stun gun/brass knuckles/dagger combo! Good for many ranges!

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> Now maybe if they would make a pepper spray/stun gun/brass knuckles/dagger combo! Good for many ranges!
> 
> Deaf



That's why I think the Tigerlight T-100 is a good choice.........in combination with a concealed handgun.  It provides tactical lighting, which is always a must when carrying a self-defense firearm, as well as a less than lethal option to deter other threats.


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## BLACK LION

I agree completely with carrying a good hand-torch with a "less lethal" striker bezel or tailcap or both. 
I have yet to use mine for "personal protection" accept torching a couple wandering mad-dogs in the face. However I have used it to save a little girl who was about to get hit by a speeding truck while crodssing the street(I literally had to blast thier eyes out with the beam to get them to completely stop).  

I carry and use a 150 lumen hellfighter X12: 







*Specifications:
*

*Length:* 6.5
*Width Head:* 1.5
*Width Body:* 1.0 Nominal
*Weight:* 9.1 oz
*Material:* Mil Std 6061 511 T6 Aircraft Aluminum Alloy, Body functions as heat sink.
*Lamp:* Xenon/Halogen/Argon High Intensity vapor-sealed, incandescent High Temperature Filament Bulb.
*Wattage:* 6.5 watts
*Voltage:* 6 Volts Nominal, 7.2 volts in rechargeable mode.
*Output:* 150 Lumens/115 Lumens Rechargeable
*Runtime:* To 1 hour, dependent on battery performance.
*Lamp Mounting:* Permanent Soldered, Spring Isolated Shock resistant on weapon axis to 1250G.
*Lens:* Optical Grade Borosilicate Glass, Iridium coated for 5500k daylight equivalent beam.
*Reflector:* Parabolic Shaped silver halide coated over etch-stippled finish to eliminate filament ring shadows.
*Remote Switch:* Pressure pad, waterproof 6 and 12 inch cable, replaces tail cap.
*Power source:* (2) 123 series Lithium Batteries Rechargeable, (1)3.7 volt 2400MA battery.


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## Danjo

How about one of these?


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## Flea

Well, here it is:

http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/400kv-scorpion-stun-gun-sp400.html

We had our maiden voyage down the street with it tonight.  I love the feature of the safety switch at the end of the handle.  It is rather cumbersome and I had to pocket it while I did the Dawg Scoop, although I do that with the pepper spray too.  And it's rather large and conspicuous, so I pocketed it (the stun gun that is, not the dawg scoop) when I ran into a colleague/neighbor lest he think I'm a little _off_.  :uhyeah:  We are working together on some projects after all.

That said, I think that once I get the feel for it this will be a good option until I can get outta Dodge.  I would feel more comfortable if I could find some training with it.  Can anyone recommend something?


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