# Easy to Carry, Easy to Use Self Defense Weapons



## TieXiongJi

Hi All,

I am an electrical engineer, martial artist of the Chinese disciplines, and a self defense hobbyist. I have been puzzling over how the women in my life could fight back if I came at them hard and haven't seen much chance for them to resist me if I use maximum force. I came up with an idea for a easy to wear glove with integrated self defense tools.

Would anyone know of easy to carry, easy to use Self Defense Weapons? I would like to see what is available that you would recommend to someone without any weapons training.

Thanks everyone!


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## O'Malley

Hm, pepper spray?

In Belgium, any kind of weapon is prohibited, even the "self defense/tactical" stuff like pepper spray. Of course, you can easily get it from other countries/black market, and if a girl gets caught with a small canister in her bag the police pretend they didn't see it.


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## Gerry Seymour

There's literally nothing I would recommend without training. Pepper spray can be mis-used (getting yourself). Tasers must be protected, or they may be used against you. Etc.


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## Flying Crane

This sounds like something that could very easily put you at odds with law enforcement, simply for carrying it.  Issues like, premeditated intent, I think it basically means that you are packing some kind of a weapon and are looking for an excuse to use it.


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## Flying Crane

Back in the 1980s, I would see this advertisement in the martial arts magazines, for a little self defense tool.  It was basically a double spike that you would attach to the top of your shoe, it rested on the tongue of the shoe and would poke out between your shoelaces so if you kick someone with the top of your foot, you will rip him up with the spike.

If you took to wearing something like that on a regular basis, and you ever kicked someone with it, I think law enforcement would not look kindly on you for it.


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## Kung Fu Wang

I had no problem to wear this into a police department. Nobody can call it a "weapon". But first, you will need to train how to use it.


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## Flying Crane

That must weigh a ton.  Does it keep your pants up, or drag them down?


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## Kung Fu Wang

When I hiked in the woods, I like to carry this spear head in my day pack. I can put it on my hiking stick to make it into a spear. It's not used to deal with human being but mountain lion or bear.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> That must weigh a ton.  Does it keep your pants up, or drag them down?


I don't have fat belly and I like to tight my belt on my waist. It sits nicely above my hip bone. You can use it as a whip, or just wrap around your hand and make it a big iron fist.


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## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't have fat belly and I like to tight my belt on my waist. It sits nicely above my hip bone. You can use it as a whip, or just wrap around your hand and make it a big iron fist.


What does it weight?  Fat belly or not, it just seems like it would drag your pants down.


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## Buka

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had no problem to wear this into a police department. Nobody can call it a "weapon". But first, you will need to train how to use it.



No problem wearing in into an ordinary Police Department. But the Fashion Police are horrified.


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## TieXiongJi

Flying Crane said:


> This sounds like something that could very easily put you at odds with law enforcement, simply for carrying it.  Issues like, premeditated intent, I think it basically means that you are packing some kind of a weapon and are looking for an excuse to use it.


Wow. I didn't even think about that. I wouldn't build in Assassin's Creed Wrist Knives. Just looking for current products that anyone has seen or used. You could easily argue the same problem for concealed carry. "You bring a gun with you everywhere and are itching to use it."


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## TieXiongJi

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had no problem to wear this into a police department. Nobody can call it a "weapon". But first, you will need to train how to use it.


Use it like a whip? Sounds like a bit of training and strength required. Plus it takes time to remove and wield properly.


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## Bill Mattocks

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had no problem to wear this into a police department. Nobody can call it a "weapon". But first, you will need to train how to use it.



I beg to differ.  A weapon is in the eyes of the law enforcement officer first, a court second.   Much depends upon observed intent.  Whilst wearing it as a belt might well pass muster in many places, including a police station, that is no guarantee that it will always be viewed this way.

And to be clear, since you won't be offering to pay the attorney fees of anyone who depends upon your absolute statement that "nobody can call it a weapon" and finds it to be incorrect, you might want to consider restating that.


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## Bill Mattocks

TieXiongJi said:


> Wow. I didn't even think about that. I wouldn't build in Assassin's Creed Wrist Knives. Just looking for current products that anyone has seen or used. You could easily argue the same problem for concealed carry. "You bring a gun with you everywhere and are itching to use it."



I will reframe the question, see if it makes better sense:

Q: I want to create a weapon that can be carried everywhere and it is not illegal and it is effective against all types of attack.
A: No such thing.

or 

A: A weapon is ... a weapon.  If you have a weapon that is not a gun or a knife but is still not your empty hands, it's still...a weapon.  And guess what, that's how the police view it too in many locations.

or 

A: The only weapon that will (usually) stop an all-out physical attack by a trained martial artist is a gun.  Learn how to use one, get a license to carry it, and then carry it everywhere.

I appreciate your efforts; quite noble.  However, although you don't know it, every couple months, someone wanders by here and announces their new amazing self-defense weapon that is not a weapon (somehow?) and doesn't require any training (interesting) and will stop any attack (amazing).

My personal opinion is that a) such amazing devices don't exist, and are not likely to; b) a weapon is  weapon even if you say it's not a weapon; and c) if a person is all that serious about stopping ANY kind of physical attack, they need a gun and they need to know how and when to use it.

Sorry.  What you seek is a form of magic and it doesn't exist.  Again, just my opinion.  I sincerely appreciate your desire to create such a thing.


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## Flying Crane

TieXiongJi said:


> Wow. I didn't even think about that. I wouldn't build in Assassin's Creed Wrist Knives. Just looking for current products that anyone has seen or used. You could easily argue the same problem for concealed carry. "You bring a gun with you everywhere and are itching to use it."


Well, you said something about a glove with built in weapons.  Things that are improvised, but clearly intended as a weapon, kinda get noticed in a bad way.  It makes a statement about the kind of nefarious activities you might be up to with bad intent.

 Carrying a gun has certain licensing requirements in order to be compliant with the law.  Local jurisdictions look differently on various  things like pepper spray, and may or may not be ok for someone to carry.  Other things are pretty much illegal everywhere, like brass knuckles, saps, blackjacks, gloves with pockets of lead shot in the knuckles, and spring-loaded folding knives (switchblades).  If you improvise a glove that resembles some of these things, you may have created a problem for yourself.


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## drop bear




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## Danny T

Anything can be a weapon when use in the manner as a weapon. There is no one weapon to handle any and all situations.


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## TieXiongJi

Bill Mattocks said:


> I will reframe the question, see if it makes better sense:
> 
> Q: I want to create a weapon that can be carried everywhere and it is not illegal and it is effective against all types of attack.
> A: No such thing.
> 
> or
> 
> A: A weapon is ... a weapon.  If you have a weapon that is not a gun or a knife but is still not your empty hands, it's still...a weapon.  And guess what, that's how the police view it too in many locations.
> 
> or
> 
> A: The only weapon that will (usually) stop an all-out physical attack by a trained martial artist is a gun.  Learn how to use one, get a license to carry it, and then carry it everywhere.
> 
> I appreciate your efforts; quite noble.  However, although you don't know it, every couple months, someone wanders by here and announces their new amazing self-defense weapon that is not a weapon (somehow?) and doesn't require any training (interesting) and will stop any attack (amazing).
> 
> My personal opinion is that a) such amazing devices don't exist, and are not likely to; b) a weapon is  weapon even if you say it's not a weapon; and c) if a person is all that serious about stopping ANY kind of physical attack, they need a gun and they need to know how and when to use it.
> 
> Sorry.  What you seek is a form of magic and it doesn't exist.  Again, just my opinion.  I sincerely appreciate your desire to create such a thing.



So I have to disagree with your question.

I really just want to see what you guys all recommend for a woman in your life. Would you all just tell her to get a gun and now walk around with an incredibly dangerous weapon? I live in a very safe area and have never ever felt that I need a weapon to protect myself. The women in my life mostly live in similar areas.

As all of us know, investing 1000's of hours into martial arts and self defense techniques is more of a hobby than a necessity. Most women could defend themselves by observing the surroundings or the situation and simply extricate themselves before any problem arises. This kind of awareness could come with a few Women's Self Defense courses. The whole physically resisting a stronger opponent without any weapon is only possible with a good understanding of self defense techniques.

I will restate my question since it isn't landing.

Which self defense equipment would you recommend to a vulnerable person in your life?


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## O'Malley

Maybe self defense classes, for the reasons you mentioned.

If there's a need for "instant feeling of safety" I'd go for pepper spray. We managed to get some for a few of my female friends. But again I don't live in the US so that solution might not be appropriate.


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## Bill Mattocks

TieXiongJi said:


> So I have to disagree with your question.



Feel free to do so.



> I really just want to see what you guys all recommend for a woman in your life. Would you all just tell her to get a gun and now walk around with an incredibly dangerous weapon? I live in a very safe area and have never ever felt that I need a weapon to protect myself. The women in my life mostly live in similar areas.



So you have said two things.  One, what would we (men) recommend for a woman in our lives for self-protection, and two, you live in a safe area.

OK, so good for you, glad to hear it.  I live in a safe area too.  But people have been shot to death mere miles from me, and I'm close enough to Pontiac, Flint, and Detroit that a short car trip could put myself or anyone I know in extreme danger.

What would I recommend?  A gun.  As I said.



> As all of us know, investing 1000's of hours into martial arts and self defense techniques is more of a hobby than a necessity. Most women could defend themselves by observing the surroundings or the situation and simply extricate themselves before any problem arises. This kind of awareness could come with a few Women's Self Defense courses. The whole physically resisting a stronger opponent without any weapon is only possible with a good understanding of self defense techniques.



I do not train in martial arts for self-defense.  It's a side-effect.  But everyone is different.

And no self-defense techniques that I am aware of stop bullets.



> I will restate my question since it isn't landing.
> 
> Which self defense equipment would you recommend to a vulnerable person in your life?



A gun.  Was I not clear?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> What does it weight?  Fat belly or not, it just seems like it would drag your pants down.


I just weight it. It's only 2.1 lb.


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## Kung Fu Wang

TieXiongJi said:


> Use it like a whip? Sounds like a bit of training and strength required. Plus it takes time to remove and wield properly.


You have to wear this outside of your regular leather belt so when you pull it out, your leather belt can still hold your pants.


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## Gerry Seymour

TieXiongJi said:


> So I have to disagree with your question.
> 
> I really just want to see what you guys all recommend for a woman in your life. Would you all just tell her to get a gun and now walk around with an incredibly dangerous weapon? I live in a very safe area and have never ever felt that I need a weapon to protect myself. The women in my life mostly live in similar areas.
> 
> As all of us know, investing 1000's of hours into martial arts and self defense techniques is more of a hobby than a necessity. Most women could defend themselves by observing the surroundings or the situation and simply extricate themselves before any problem arises. This kind of awareness could come with a few Women's Self Defense courses. The whole physically resisting a stronger opponent without any weapon is only possible with a good understanding of self defense techniques.
> 
> I will restate my question since it isn't landing.
> 
> Which self defense equipment would you recommend to a vulnerable person in your life?


I repeat what I said before. No tool (especially including a gun) is likely to be useful without proper training and/or practice. The self-protection methods you mentioned earlier (awareness, etc.) are the first line of protection. I could point out my favorite defensive tools, but they'd be nearly useless or worse in untrained hands. Anything I decide to use (carry or environmental) I train for.


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## Gerry Seymour

Bill Mattocks said:


> Feel free to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> So you have said two things.  One, what would we (men) recommend for a woman in our lives for self-protection, and two, you live in a safe area.
> 
> OK, so good for you, glad to hear it.  I live in a safe area too.  But people have been shot to death mere miles from me, and I'm close enough to Pontiac, Flint, and Detroit that a short car trip could put myself or anyone I know in extreme danger.
> 
> What would I recommend?  A gun.  As I said.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not train in martial arts for self-defense.  It's a side-effect.  But everyone is different.
> 
> And no self-defense techniques that I am aware of stop bullets.
> 
> 
> 
> A gun.  Was I not clear?


A gun, and training.


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## KangTsai

If you're in the US, just get a handgun (1911, glock). Hands down the most reliable self-defence weapon. Otherwise, I would choose stream pepper spray as an alternative, if it's legal.

But I need to say the same thing: there are no magic tricks, and anything can go wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour

KangTsai said:


> If you're in the US, just get a handgun (1911, glock). Hands down the most reliable self-defence weapon. Otherwise, I would choose stream pepper spray as an alternative, if it's legal.
> 
> But I need to say the same thing: there are no magic tricks, and anything can go wrong.


A handgun is only useful if you have it with you, are capable with it, and deploy it before things go awry. Deploying it later is very chancy, and best reserved for those trained at it. As for having it with you, even in some gun-friendly states, that's not so easy. There are many places in North Carolina where guns cannot be taken in (any store that posts a restriction, anyplace where people pay admission, churches, government buildings, most parks, etc.). And if you travel by plane, you can add the airport complications to that. Travel by car? Well, when I looked at it a few years ago, there were states where I'd have to have it locked away in my trunk for it to be legal while I drove through.

Guns are not an easy answer.


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## KangTsai

gpseymour said:


> A handgun is only useful if you have it with you, are capable with it, and deploy it before things go awry. Deploying it later is very chancy, and best reserved for those trained at it. As for having it with you, even in some gun-friendly states, that's not so easy. There are many places in North Carolina where guns cannot be taken in (any store that posts a restriction, anyplace where people pay admission, churches, government buildings, most parks, etc.). And if you travel by plane, you can add the airport complications to that. Travel by car? Well, when I looked at it a few years ago, there were states where I'd have to have it locked away in my trunk for it to be legal while I drove through.
> 
> Guns are not an easy answer.


Better than nothing I guess


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> Guns are not an easy answer.


Agree! When I checked in my hand gun through Calgary Canada airport from US, I was asked to go through a special door and 3 police officers were waiting for me.

A: Why do you bring hand gun into our country?
B: I am going to hike in the woods for 3 weeks. I heard that your country has a lot of grizzle bears. I have removed the bullets, locked my hand gun in double boxes, examined by US airport agent, and received a red tag permit.
A: We have to keep your hand gun here. You can pick it up on your way back to US.

Since then every time I hiked in Canada, I carried my hiking stick and my spear head instead. I just didn't feel safe.


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## frank raud

Easy to carry/ You mean something that will always be in your hand, or something that will fit in a purse, so you have to dig around to get it? Belt carry is a problem for much of women's clothing, as a belt is rarely worn with a skirt or dress, and open carry of weapons is not generally approved of. Easy to use? With no training? A baseball bat?


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## TieXiongJi

Bill Mattocks said:


> Feel free to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> So you have said two things.  One, what would we (men) recommend for a woman in our lives for self-protection, and two, you live in a safe area.
> 
> OK, so good for you, glad to hear it.  I live in a safe area too.  But people have been shot to death mere miles from me, and I'm close enough to Pontiac, Flint, and Detroit that a short car trip could put myself or anyone I know in extreme danger.
> 
> What would I recommend?  A gun.  As I said.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not train in martial arts for self-defense.  It's a side-effect.  But everyone is different.
> 
> And no self-defense techniques that I am aware of stop bullets.
> 
> 
> 
> A gun.  Was I not clear?



Thank you for the complete answer.


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## Kung Fu Wang

How about something like these?


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## TieXiongJi

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about something like these?



Finally! I will never worry about my mother walking through a dark parking lot ever again now!
Just have to teach her Sword and Dagger style. Easy!


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## Flying Crane

TieXiongJi said:


> So I have to disagree with your question.
> 
> I really just want to see what you guys all recommend for a woman in your life. Would you all just tell her to get a gun and now walk around with an incredibly dangerous weapon? I live in a very safe area and have never ever felt that I need a weapon to protect myself. The women in my life mostly live in similar areas.
> 
> As all of us know, investing 1000's of hours into martial arts and self defense techniques is more of a hobby than a necessity. Most women could defend themselves by observing the surroundings or the situation and simply extricate themselves before any problem arises. This kind of awareness could come with a few Women's Self Defense courses. The whole physically resisting a stronger opponent without any weapon is only possible with a good understanding of self defense techniques.
> 
> I will restate my question since it isn't landing.
> 
> Which self defense equipment would you recommend to a vulnerable person in your life?


Ok, so is there, or is there not, a vulnerable person?  You just said in this same post that you and the women in your life live in safe areas, at least mostly.

Perhaps there is no genuine need?  And since there are no easy answers, well maybe it doesn't matter.


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## oaktree

For me first it's gun, then knife. I don't carry tasters or sticks on me as every day items. 
I really carry knives for daily things however I do study escrima and we do knife work.
Regardless of what you carry get proper training in using it, tap rack bang.


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## Juany118

OP, first start by looking at your local laws.  In my jurisdiction civilians can't carry tasers and stun guns publically, nor slap/blackjacks, brass knuckles etc.  It you are talking something that requires little to no training this is what I keep coming back too... Kimber America | Pepperblaster | The most powerful pepper defense system

In most jurisdictions OC is legal.  The design of this particular one makes it almost impossible to spray yourself.  The amount of pressure behind the propellant greatly minimizes environmental conditions (such as spraying into the wind and catching a mouthful yourself.  Really though, atm, there is no self defense panacea for the UN/undertrained.

I didn't say "gun" because a gun requires training, the situations where lethal force are justified are far and few between and again some jurisdictions make it difficult to get a permit to carry etc.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour

Juany118 said:


> OP, first start by looking at your local laws.  In my jurisdiction civilians can't carry tasers and stun guns publically, nor slap/blackjacks, brass knuckles etc.  It you are talking something that requires little to no training this is what I keep coming back too... Kimber America | Pepperblaster | The most powerful pepper defense system
> 
> In most jurisdictions OC is legal.  The design of this particular one makes it almost impossible to spray yourself.  The amount of pressure behind the propellant greatly minimizes environmental conditions (such as spraying into the wind and catching a mouthful yourself.  Really though, atm, there is no self defense panacea for the UN/undertrained.
> 
> I didn't say "gun" because a gun requires training, the situations where lethal force are justified are far and few between and again some jurisdictions make it difficult to get a permit to carry etc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


I like that one. Thanks for sharing!


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## jks9199

Spetsdods.

Of course, there's still a trainibg and practice issue.

The question as asked or restated is meaningless.  Others have noted, there is no magic talisman that will make someone safe. Not martial arts training, not tools or weapons.   Not bodyguards or tanks to roll around in.  

So, what can you do?  Learn the signs,  be aware of precursors and indicators of potential violence.   Avoid dumb situations and places.  And dont be an *******. In fact, that's probably number 1...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## TieXiongJi

Guns are easy to acquire, but incredibly dangerous; much higher chance of shooting a loved one than an enemy.
Tasers and Pepper Spray are both easy to acquire and simple enough to teach proper use without risking the user's safety.
SAP Gloves are easy to acquire, but the training is extremely important and the damage is variable.
Knives are easy to acquire, but definitely require extensive training and have restrictions in length and mechanisms.
Basic self protection techniques like assessing the situation, reading the room, avoiding isolating areas. Easy to train and to spot.

Any other suggestions?


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## Mujician

Pepper spray is easily made at home. I told my friend how to make it and he now keeps a stay bottle of it in his car! You need to err on the side of caution - I think there are laws in various US states prohibiting the owning of certain weapons, and here in the UK there are various laws about carrying weapons, and pepper spray is illegal to own, carry or make.


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## Gerry Seymour

Mujician said:


> Pepper spray is easily made at home. I told my friend how to make it and he now keeps a stay bottle of it in his car! You need to err on the side of caution - I think there are laws in various US states prohibiting the owning of certain weapons, and here in the UK there are various laws about carrying weapons, and pepper spray is illegal to own, carry or make.


How do you make the delivery system?


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## Tez3

Mujician said:


> Pepper spray is easily made at home. I told my friend how to make it and he now keeps a stay bottle of it in his car! You need to err on the side of caution - I think there are laws in various US states prohibiting the owning of certain weapons, and here in the UK there are various laws about carrying weapons, and pepper spray is illegal to own, carry or make.



This is not a good thing to post up on a public forum by the way. Yes, it is illegal to carry here, this will be treated as a firearm, comes under the Firearms act 1968 ((b)any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing; ) and if caught with it certainly faces a custodial sentence, the length of which will depend on what the charge is.. (most likely sections 16 and 19)
The provisions are—

(a)section 16 (possession of firearm with intent to injure);

(b)section 16A (possession of firearm with intent to cause fear of violence);

(c)section 17 (use of firearm to resist arrest);

(d)section 18 (carrying firearm with criminal intent);

(e)section 19 (carrying a firearm in a public place);

(f)section 20(1)(trespassing in a building with firearm).]

(2)The court shall impose an appropriate custodial sentence (or order for detention) for a term of at least the required minimum term (with or without a fine) unless the court is of the opinion that there are exceptional circumstances relating to the offence or to the offender which justify its not doing so.

Having it sat in the car means he will be unable to use it when outside his car, so the police may well decide he was carrying it not for self defence purposes but for something else.
I would tell him to get it out of his car and dispose of it responsibly *asap.*


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## Mujician

gpseymour said:


> How do you make the delivery system?



He didn't make it, he poured it into a small spray bottle, the type you might have for spraying house plants.



Tez3 said:


> This is not a good thing to post up on a public forum by the way. Yes, it is illegal to carry here, this will be treated as a firearm, comes under the Firearms act 1968 ((b)any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing; ) and if caught with it certainly faces a custodial sentence, the length of which will depend on what the charge is.. (most likely sections 16 and 19)
> The provisions are—
> 
> (a)section 16 (possession of firearm with intent to injure);
> 
> (b)section 16A (possession of firearm with intent to cause fear of violence);
> 
> (c)section 17 (use of firearm to resist arrest);
> 
> (d)section 18 (carrying firearm with criminal intent);
> 
> (e)section 19 (carrying a firearm in a public place);
> 
> (f)section 20(1)(trespassing in a building with firearm).]
> 
> (2)The court shall impose an appropriate custodial sentence (or order for detention) for a term of at least the required minimum term (with or without a fine) unless the court is of the opinion that there are exceptional circumstances relating to the offence or to the offender which justify its not doing so.
> 
> Having it sat in the car means he will be unable to use it when outside his car, so the police may well decide he was carrying it not for self defence purposes but for something else.
> I would tell him to get it out of his car and dispose of it responsibly *asap.*



I didn't think it was a good idea either, will do.


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## Gerry Seymour

Mujician said:


> He didn't make it, he poured it into a small spray bottle, the type you might have for spraying house plants.



Yikes. So, he's going to try to squirt from a squirt bottle at a range of a couple of steps, hoping to get the attacker. If he uses "stream", he'll probably miss. If he uses "spray", he'll mist himself with it, too. And I can't count the number of times I picked up a squirt bottle and had to spray a few times before anything came out.

An ineffective weapon, as well as an illegal one.


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## Mujician

Haha, I didn't ask him if he tested it. I only see him in wednesdays - will ask him then!


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## Juany118

I was thinking, while only fully effective at night the following may be an option for GTFO...  
How to Use a Strobing Flashlight

I linked this article for the first section regarding the effects of strobing especially in low-light conditions. So the section regarding the law enforcement specific issues which involve engaging a Target or making the custodial arrest aren't  strictly relevant to a self-defense situation where in my opinion your primary goal is to escape


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## jacksmall

agree with others here. legal carry and training is modern self defense. along with that, oc spray and perhaps a small flashlight as a kubotan? all this stuff requires training. training is key. running and staying in shape are good too.


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## wingerjim

TieXiongJi said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am an electrical engineer, martial artist of the Chinese disciplines, and a self defense hobbyist. I have been puzzling over how the women in my life could fight back if I came at them hard and haven't seen much chance for them to resist me if I use maximum force. I came up with an idea for a easy to wear glove with integrated self defense tools.
> 
> Would anyone know of easy to carry, easy to use Self Defense Weapons? I would like to see what is available that you would recommend to someone without any weapons training.
> 
> Thanks everyone!


I too work in an environment like you work and I carry one of these. They actually write well, they are TSA approved, and have a good grip. Nothing that would kill, but enough to help escape most situation unless a firearm is needed and at least in my workplace I cannot carry one though I have my CCW in this state.


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## drop bear

wingerjim said:


> I too work in an environment like you work and I carry one of these. They actually write well, they are TSA approved, and have a good grip. Nothing that would kill, but enough to help escape most situation unless a firearm is needed and at least in my workplace I cannot carry one though I have my CCW in this state.
> View attachment 20399



By the way it is really obvious when someone has a tactical pen. I saw a security guard with one and had a little chuckle. She thought she was being all sorts of sneaky with the thing.

She also carried it in her breast pocket. Which I was never a fan of due to how easily someone else could grab it.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> By the way it is really obvious when someone has a tactical pen. I saw a security guard with one and had a little chuckle. She thought she was being all sorts of sneaky with the thing.
> 
> She also carried it in her breast pocket. Which I was never a fan of due to how easily someone else could grab it.


I prefer to carry a non-tactical metal pen. It's probably not as strong, but it's less obvious. I have been known to carry it in the breast pocket, but I think someone grabbing it is more of a risk for security and LEO (and bouncers), where they may have to restrain someone. For the "average Joe", it's unlikely someone will be mad enough to attack, but collected enough to go for the pen. Of course, for most LEO, there are much more obvious weapons, so their pen is probably less likely to become a target.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I prefer to carry a non-tactical metal pen. It's probably not as strong, but it's less obvious. I have been known to carry it in the breast pocket, but I think someone grabbing it is more of a risk for security and LEO (and bouncers), where they may have to restrain someone. For the "average Joe", it's unlikely someone will be mad enough to attack, but collected enough to go for the pen. Of course, for most LEO, there are much more obvious weapons, so their pen is probably less likely to become a target.



My view on that is if you are carrying a pen with he intention of using it in a fight. Assume you are going to get in a fight. And plan accordingly.

And for me it is pants pocket like a knife.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I prefer to carry a non-tactical metal pen.


You guys are too serious about "legal issue". When I was a homeless, I carried a butterfly knife 24/7. Life and death was the only thing that I had to worry about. The legal issue was the least thing that I had in mind.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You guys are too serious about "legal issue". When I was a homeless, I carried a butterfly knife 24/7. Life and death was the only thing that I had to worry about. The legal issue was the least thing that I had in mind.


The chances of me needing the weapon are lower than the chances of it getting me into trouble if it isn't legal. The more likely you are to need the weapon to save your life, the less the legalities matter.

And I fly a lot, so I have to worry about the legalities. I've had things taken from me that weren't strictly on the TSA list, because they were close enough an agent decided they couldn't fly.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> And I fly a lot, so I have to worry about the legalities. I've had things taken from me that weren't strictly on the TSA list, because they were close enough an agent decided they couldn't fly.


Before 9/11, my student borrowed this from me and carried it on the airplane. He told the airline people that it's used for "spear fishing".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Before 9/11, my student borrowed this from me and carried it on the airplane. He told the airline people that it's used for "spear fishing".


Before 9/11, I carried a folding knife on every flight I ever went on. I carried a kubotan on most of them, too.


----------



## Buka

As a cop, other than a side arm and a knife, I never carried anything I was''t required to. Still don't. No mace/spray, tasers, baton, pr24s etc. Hands free and the less handles for them to grab, the better, IMO. (And I really hate carrying spray/mace)
Bumped heads with the bosses from time to time, but it all worked out.


----------



## wingerjim

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You guys are too serious about "legal issue". When I was a homeless, I carried a butterfly knife 24/7. Life and death was the only thing that I had to worry about. The legal issue was the least thing that I had in mind.


I can certainly understand if a person is homeless vs. having a home where the mindset would be different when choosing  a means to defend oneself, but the original question was from an individual with a job and housing, so I believe the thinking is different. If I were to disregard the law, I may also end up homeless if I lost my job carrying a weapon, which is against my company's policies. In addition I do carry a pocket knife along with my tactical pen as these are last resort weapons if I am confronted with violence. Since these "gravity" knives are illegal in many places, both in my state and including in airports, I prefer to have something that is an aid, but not illegal as I would never get it past security in the first place. On the streets and outside of the home I carry a handgun, so again this is not a practical weapon other than a fun knife to practice with, but for me only in the home.


----------



## DanT

Keys, and a pen. Put a car key between two of your fingers and punch with that, you could punch anywear and really hurt someone. Pen is the same, hold it in your hammer fist and just stab like crazy. I've used the pen before and believe me, it stopped the attack. Best part is, keys and a pen are allowed everywhere.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DanT said:


> Keys, and a pen. Put a car key between two of your fingers and punch with that, you could punch anywear and really hurt someone. Pen is the same, hold it in your hammer fist and just stab like crazy. I've used the pen before and believe me, it stopped the attack. Best part is, keys and a pen are allowed everywhere.


I don't like the keys between the fingers. I think there's at least as much chance of damaging your hand as there is of doing any damage to them. With a large key, I might grip it like a small blade, pinching between thumb and forefinger, and use it that way, but not sticking out between fingers.


----------



## Balrog

I carry a mini Maglite flashlight with my keys attached to it.  It goes through security at an airport with no hassle, whereas a kubaton might be taken away.  It does everything that a kubaton will do with the benefit of providing light in dark places.  And if the light is directed into the bad guy's eyes, that's a great advantage to have on my side!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

DanT said:


> Keys, and a pen. Put a car key between two of your fingers and punch with that, you could punch anywear and really hurt someone. Pen is the same, hold it in your hammer fist and just stab like crazy. I've used the pen before and believe me, it stopped the attack. Best part is, keys and a pen are allowed everywhere.


The key thing is a horrible idea. You're going to likely end up hurting yourself, and unless you have the grip very tight, its not going to pierce.


----------



## TwentyThree

Non firearm/knife options:

Mini Mag-lite on a clip or D-Ring (for keys, purse, belt, what have you) and a Zebra F-701 Stainless Steel pen.  If legal - and trained to do so - pepper spray or mace is good too.

And training.

A glove is a bad idea.  It doesn't work well in hot climates or seasons, for one.

Another reason is that women won't generally wear them if they aren't "glove people".  I don't wear gloves because it hems in my rings and it feels very uncomfortable. I  don't even like it in winter when gloves are a good idea (although I suck it up when I have to, obviously).

Another reason is that you have to have something easy to carry and deploy in all situations. For example, it would look weird for a woman to go out to a fancy dinner with her date and walk around wearing gloves (one or two - are you selling them in pairs?) that aren't as dressy as the rest of her clothing.

I agree, the key thing is bad advice.


----------



## CB Jones

Buka said:


> As a cop, other than a side arm and a knife, I never carried anything I was''t required to. Still don't. No mace/spray, tasers, baton, pr24s etc. Hands free and the less handles for them to grab, the better, IMO. (And I really hate carrying spray/mace)
> Bumped heads with the bosses from time to time, but it all worked out.



And I have told guys I work with if they are coming to help me leave their pepper spray behind.

I hate that crap.  I'd rather the bumps, bruises, and scratches than someone accidentally spraying me.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

LED flashlight:

Flashlight As Part Of Your Best Defense


----------



## drop bear




----------



## CB Jones

Cool how it breaks down.

But would rather have it in .223.

What's the price tag on it?


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Cool how it breaks down.
> 
> But would rather have it in .223.
> 
> What's the price tag on it?



No idea.  It was doing the rounds on facebook


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

My wife just bought a pepper spray bracelet today. It sounds like a good idea.


----------



## jks9199

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife just bought a pepper spray bracelet today. It sounds like a good idea.


The only good thing I really see about those is that you do know which way it's pointing.  Pepper spray is generally not a particularly reliable self defense option.  It's a useful tool sometimes for cops -- but it's not reliable against a determined attacker, against a drunk or drugged attacker... and it takes several minutes to really take effect if it's going to work.  Honestly, in just about every actual use I've been involved in, the violent subject didn't notice it until after he was already in custody and calming down.  The few situations it's been effective have been dispersing crowds.


----------



## CB Jones

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife just bought a pepper spray bracelet today. It sounds like a good idea.



It is a good idea if you like spraying yourself with pepper spray.

You couldn't pay me enough to wear one of those.


----------



## Danny T

DanT said:


> Keys, and a pen. Put a car key between two of your fingers and punch with that, you could punch anywear and really hurt someone.


NOOOOOooooo...great way to hurt yourself. Rip finger skin and flesh to the bone. Can damage the tendons and ligament in your finger joints.


----------



## Obito Uchiha

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had no problem to wear this into a police department. Nobody can call it a "weapon". But first, you will need to train how to use it.



You get hit with the buckle, you're a goner.


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had no problem to wear this into a police department. Nobody can call it a "weapon". But first, you will need to train how to use it.


I had a fight with a guy who had a similar belt, tripex with a triumph tank badge as a buckle. He was still trying to get it out of his belt loops whilst he was on the floor being kicked


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU

TieXiongJi said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am an electrical engineer, martial artist of the Chinese disciplines, and a self defense hobbyist. I have been puzzling over how the women in my life could fight back if I came at them hard and haven't seen much chance for them to resist me if I use maximum force. I came up with an idea for a easy to wear glove with integrated self defense tools.
> 
> Would anyone know of easy to carry, easy to use Self Defense Weapons? I would like to see what is available that you would recommend to someone without any weapons training.
> 
> Thanks everyone!


I have been teaching my version of American Kenpo in Puyallup for fifty years. I'm still strong and fast. I always carry a karambit. I use it closed as an effective hand weapon. Your forefinger through the ring and your other fingers gripping around the closed knife. Now you can strike vital spots with both end of the weapon. I use a karambit because it has a ring to slip your finger through and stabilizes your hand. Also you can strike with both ends. Then if it becomes deadly, you can quickly open up the blade. Yes, you should practice using the open blade for defense. Of course in practice never use a real karambit, but a training karambit. 
Sifu
Puyallup


----------



## tim po

Keys. got half a dozen or more keys on a keychain? hold them in your fist with the keys protruding between your fingers. keep your hand in your pocket, but loosely. if attacked, rake the keys down across the face and eyes, or thrust them into the throat or inguinal crease. and run. 

carrying weapons, as defined as any item which has no practical purpose aside from causing harm (brass knuckles, guns, tactical batons, combat knives) can be considered premeditated action. using an every day item(keys, umbrellas, your belt) as a weapon, is just self-defense.

I agree that no one should carry a weapon if they do not have training. a knife is a practical tool and can be a weapon, but without training, you are more likely to end up on the stinging end. one should never draw a knife for self-defense until they are sure that their own life is in imminent critical danger, and once drawn, do not hesitate- strike for vitals.


----------



## jks9199

tim po said:


> Keys. got half a dozen or more keys on a keychain? hold them in your fist with the keys protruding between your fingers. keep your hand in your pocket, but loosely. if attacked, rake the keys down across the face and eyes, or thrust them into the throat or inguinal crease. and run.
> 
> carrying weapons, as defined as any item which has no practical purpose aside from causing harm (brass knuckles, guns, tactical batons, combat knives) can be considered premeditated action. using an every day item(keys, umbrellas, your belt) as a weapon, is just self-defense.
> 
> I agree that no one should carry a weapon if they do not have training. a knife is a practical tool and can be a weapon, but without training, you are more likely to end up on the stinging end. one should never draw a knife for self-defense until they are sure that their own life is in imminent critical danger, and once drawn, do not hesitate- strike for vitals.


Keys... Nope. Horribe idea. Don't believe me? Try it against something like a watermelon; you'll tear your hands up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

tim po said:


> Keys. got half a dozen or more keys on a keychain? hold them in your fist with the keys protruding between your fingers. keep your hand in your pocket, but loosely. if attacked, rake the keys down across the face and eyes, or thrust them into the throat or inguinal crease. and run.
> 
> carrying weapons, as defined as any item which has no practical purpose aside from causing harm (brass knuckles, guns, tactical batons, combat knives) can be considered premeditated action. using an every day item(keys, umbrellas, your belt) as a weapon, is just self-defense.
> 
> I agree that no one should carry a weapon if they do not have training. a knife is a practical tool and can be a weapon, but without training, you are more likely to end up on the stinging end. one should never draw a knife for self-defense until they are sure that their own life is in imminent critical danger, and once drawn, do not hesitate- strike for vitals.


This is said a lot. And it’s just a bad idea. You’re more likely to injure yourself than an attacker.


----------



## Alan0354

Carrying any weapon without training is a bad idea in general. I carry a walking cane, I've been training 4 to 5 days a week for the last 8 months and still there's a lot of room for improvement. You just don't carry anything out without really know how to work it.

Remember, you carry a weapon and don't know how to use, the thug might take it from you and use it on you!!! I even put a loop on my cane and loop around my wrist so I won't accidentally lose it(happens more than you think). I also practice if the thug tries to pull it from me, I practice kicking the knee or between the legs and all that.

I can see key is a very bad idea, you punch someone with keys in between your fingers, first thing is the back of the key is going to dig into your palm and hurt you more.


----------



## tim po

it will hurt your hand, yes, if you throw a punch this way. press the keys into the face and rake across the eyes, this will not hurt your hand unless you are not holding the keys properly. if you grab your keys during an attack, yes, you will not be able to grab them and situate them effectively between your fingers, that is why i suggest being in the habit of carrying them in your hand, already seated firmly in your palm and arranged to protrude between the fingers.  jabbing soft targets like the inguinal, underside of the arm or throat also will not require so much force to cause pain that it will hurt you.
there are better options, but some people don't want to carry a 'weapon', or may just not have their tazer with them that night. but your keys are already in your pocket? use what you have.


Alan0354 said:


> I can see key is a very bad idea, you punch someone with keys in between your fingers, first thing is the back of the key is going to dig into your palm and hurt you more.


----------



## jks9199

If you really insist on the idea of keys as a weapon, think more flail than punching.  Use a long-ish keychain or fob that will let you effectively keep a grip on them, and then use them as a flail...

But it's still a bad idea.  Even if you don't hurt your hand -- what if they keys break?  Can you get into your house?  Use your car to flee?


----------



## tim po

ok, i can see that i am defeated! though i never meant to imply that throwing a punch with keys in your hand was a good idea, it seems that is how it is heard.  so keep your keys in your pocket, you're right, what if you get away and run to your car but there's a frikkin eyeball on your car key? that would be bad. 

i should explain that i am not a 'puncher' anyway, i view 'striking' as being defined in many ways, a punch being one of them, but a thrust, block, parry, hip-check or heel-stomp are all strikes. if you practice an art that punches hard targets (like the face) you will need to train the bones and tendons of your hands to not be injured by this impact. if you do that, you no longer need a weapon to increase the effectiveness of your punches!(though hard knuckle tac gloves aren't a bad idea). if you do not condition your hands, a punch to hard bone may injure your hand, with or without keys.

in 'soft' style martial arts, striking is focused on 'soft' targets, muscles, tendons, fascia, nerve plexus', eyes, throat, arteries, etc. if you think of a 'punch'  as launching from your side to span arm's length to it;s target and then recoiling, think of a strike as moving from wherever the (body weapon) is, even from one inch away from it's target, following the body contact and thrusting with the full weight and power created by the dynamics of rooted agility and inner structure.  can you see how a key could enhance the effect of a strike this way, without personal injury? 

the advice is intended for one who feels they need an edge, maybe a smaller person who is just nervous about walking through a dark parking garage. if you train in ANY martial art for long enough, you won't need a weapon. you will be one, and you will be able to use virtually anything at your disposal to increase efficiency and effectiveness of your technique. Ken Tai Ichi Jo. the body and weapon are one.

every weapon has a right way and a wrong way to be used. a person who doesn't know which way to point the can will hurt themselves with pepper spray.


----------



## Alan0354

If people don't want to practice, pepper spray might be the best option. You practice just a few times. It's cheap to buy one just for practice. BUT it is very important to practice spraying before carrying. When walk on a quiet street, have it in your hand.

Don't get anything that requires time to hold it in position like key. You have to carefully put them between fingers that takes time that you don't have in the situation. Even a pocket knife needs two hands to open it. The automatic ones are not legal in a lot of places like Kalif.

Of cause, there is gun. Are you ready to go there?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> Don't get anything that requires time to hold it in position like key. You have to carefully put them between fingers that takes time that you don't have in the situation. Even a pocket knife needs two hands to open it. The automatic ones are not legal in a lot of places like Kalif.


No they don't. There are literally thousands of legal, one-hand opening knives.


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> No they don't. There are literally thousands of legal, one-hand opening knives.


Not in Kalif. Yes, you can open with one hand without spring assist, It is hard and need concentration. I STRONGLY advice against trying to open one with one hand in tense situation. I know, I practiced, it's NOT easy.

Kalif outlaw ALL spring assisted opening knifes. Maybe less than 2", I have to double check.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> Not in Kalif. Yes, you can open with one hand without spring assist, It is hard and need concentration.


No it's not, and no it doesn't. Companies like Spyderco have built their entire business model on easy open one-handed knives.
Additionally, your statement that spring-assisted opening knives are illegal in California is also incorrect.



> A spring assisted knife is legal in California as long as it “opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.” Penal Code 21510 PC, which is the California statute governing switchblade knives.



"Spring Assisted Knives" - Are They Illegal in California?


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> No it's not, and no it doesn't. Companies like Spyderco have built their entire business model on easy open one-handed knives.
> Additionally, your statement that spring-assisted opening knives are illegal in California is also incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> "Spring Assisted Knives" - Are They Illegal in California?


If you read the article, it also talked about spring assisted that is not legal. It is confusing, like talking with both sides of the mouth,

This is the one I bought, I don't think it's legal in Kalif
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0057R8SSM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If you think it's legal, let me know. I don't dare to carry it out. This would be a good self defense knife open with one hand safely. Watch the video.


----------



## Oily Dragon

I only trust biker lawyers on these kind of subjects.









						California Knife Laws 2020- Which knives are legal to carry? California Knife Laws 2020 - Is It Legal to Carry One?
					

California Knife Laws 2020 - Is It Legal to Carry One? Bikers always seem to inquire about the knife carry laws in California.  After researching the law, we certainly understand why confusion exists as to what is legal to carry and what isn't: there are over a dozen statutes on…




					www.riderzlaw.com
				




_In California, the following are illegal:  (1) It is illegal to possess any switchblade knife with a blade of 2″ or longer, that can be opened with a button or the flick of your wrist; (2) concealed possession of any “dirk” or “dagger,” i.e., any stabbing device with a fixed blade, regardless of blade length; (3) possession or sale of any disguised blades, i.e., cane swords, writing pen knives, lipstick knives, etc., or any knife that is undetectable to metal detectors; (4) possession of a knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2″ on any school grounds; (5) possession of a fixed-blade knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2″ on any college or university grounds; and (6) flashing or waiving any knife or weapon in a threatening manner.  Also, certain municipalities have their own laws that may affect the legality of carrying a knife.  In Los Angeles, for example, it’s illegal to openly carry any knife with a blade longer than 3″._


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> I only trust biker lawyers on these kind of subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Knife Laws 2020- Which knives are legal to carry? California Knife Laws 2020 - Is It Legal to Carry One?
> 
> 
> California Knife Laws 2020 - Is It Legal to Carry One? Bikers always seem to inquire about the knife carry laws in California.  After researching the law, we certainly understand why confusion exists as to what is legal to carry and what isn't: there are over a dozen statutes on…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.riderzlaw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In California, the following are illegal:  (1) It is illegal to possess any switchblade knife with a blade of 2″ or longer, that can be opened with a button or the flick of your wrist; (2) concealed possession of any “dirk” or “dagger,” i.e., any stabbing device with a fixed blade, regardless of blade length; (3) possession or sale of any disguised blades, i.e., cane swords, writing pen knives, lipstick knives, etc., or any knife that is undetectable to metal detectors; (4) possession of a knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2″ on any school grounds; (5) possession of a fixed-blade knife with a blade longer than 2 1/2″ on any college or university grounds; and (6) flashing or waiving any knife or weapon in a threatening manner.  Also, certain municipalities have their own laws that may affect the legality of carrying a knife.  In Los Angeles, for example, it’s illegal to openly carry any knife with a blade longer than 3″._


That's what I've been reading. Any spring assist that you can push the knob to deploy like the one I bought and provided link is likely NOT legal. Just read the law, it's like speaking from both sides of the mouth.

I showed it to my second stepson that know some police, he said it's not legal. So what else is new!!! I am sure there are other states that are illegal, they better check very......VERY carefully before carrying those out. This is MORE SERIOUS than a conceal handgun.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> That's what I've been reading. Any spring assist that you can push the knob to deploy like the one I bought and provided link is likely NOT legal. Just read the law, it's like speaking from both sides of the mouth.
> 
> I showed it to my second stepson that know some police, he said it's not legal. So what else is new!!! I am sure there are other states that are illegal, they better check very......VERY carefully before carrying those out. This is MORE SERIOUS than a conceal handgun.


My favorite is:

"flashing or waiving any knife or weapon in a threatening manner".

Which is kind of the whole point of carrying one for self defense.  So what, mugger attacks me, I brandish my knife, he calls the cops.  I've got the weapon.

No thanks.  Knives are messy anyway.  I'll always prefer a nice solid stick, which can be just as menacing, but I doubt there's any law in CA about flashing or waiving a stick.  Then again, it's California.


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> My favorite is:
> 
> "flashing or waiving any knife or weapon in a threatening manner".
> 
> Which is kind of the whole point of carrying one for self defense.  So what, mugger attacks me, I brandish my knife, he calls the cops.  I've got the weapon.
> 
> No thanks.  Knives are messy anyway.  I'll always prefer a nice solid stick, which can be just as menacing, but I doubt there's any law in CA about flashing or waiving a stick.  Then again, it's California.


Exactly, I carry a cane everywhere I go. AND I practice very hard on how to swing, footwork and all that for close to 9 months and still going. It's good exercise for me anyway. I lost over 10lbs after I added stick fight onto my existing exercise routine.

I use the United Cutlery Night Watchman cane that has a sharp hook on it. It's made of fiber filled Nylon. It's a weapon. I cut the sharp hook and made them look so innocent, just another old men crook cane. It's 20oz after cutting down to 30", anyone gets hit by this, it won't be funny.

I don't want to take the chance to have to argue in the court whether the knife is legal or not.

If the situation calls for, I'd carry a real gun. You get into less trouble with that than a knife.


----------



## Oily Dragon

Alan0354 said:


> If the situation calls for, I'd carry a real gun. You get into less trouble with that than a knife.


That depends on the context.  I was stopped driving cross country once by state cops.  They didn't care about the 10 inch serrated military knife laying in the back seat.  They just wanted to know if I was packing a firearm.

I wasn't.  It was Texas, I figured they had plenty.


----------



## Alan0354

Oily Dragon said:


> That depends on the context.  I was stopped driving cross country once by state cops.  They didn't care about the 10 inch serrated military knife laying in the back seat.  They just wanted to know if I was packing a firearm.
> 
> I wasn't.  It was Texas, I figured they had plenty.


That really depends on individual police. I am just talking in general it's a misdemeanor for carrying a gun in Kalif, but felony for illegal knife.

If they want to be an A$$, they can get you more on a knife.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> That's what I've been reading. Any spring assist that you can push the knob to deploy like the one I bought and provided link is likely NOT legal. Just read the law, it's like speaking from both sides of the mouth.


A thumb stud is not a button. A spring assisted opening mechanism is not a switchblade. 
Federal law defines switchblade very clearly. The law above follows that definition and as such spring-assist opening knives and other non-automatic one-hand openers are legal.



> U.S. Code Title 15, Sect. 1241 defines switchblade knives as any knives which open "1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or any knife having a blade which opens automatically; (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both".


----------



## Alan0354

Dirty Dog said:


> A thumb stud is not a button. A spring assisted opening mechanism is not a switchblade.
> Federal law defines switchblade very clearly. The law above follows that definition and as such spring-assist opening knives and other non-automatic one-hand openers are legal.


I'll let you debate with the police when you get caught with one.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Alan0354 said:


> I'll let you debate with the police when you get caught with one.


There's nothing to debate.


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Carrying any weapon without training is a bad idea in general.


Nope.   Don't agree.  Weapons are "force multipliers."  They allow smaller, weaker, slower, less well trained people to match the force of someone larger, stronger, faster, and better trained who doesn't have a weapon.  



Alan0354 said:


> Remember, you carry a weapon and don't know how to use, the thug might take it from you and use it on you!!!


Nah.  I've been looking for years for evidence of this and it's as rare as an honest politician.  While it's theoretically possible, if even an untrained person is willing to use the weapon, instead of hesitating, then the chances of <cough> "the attacker taking it away and using it against them" is remarkably small.  For every one example you can find, there are, literally, hundreds of examples where the weapon isn't taken.



Alan0354 said:


> I even put a loop on my cane and loop around my wrist so I won't accidentally lose it(happens more than you think).


Huh?  You lose your cane?




Alan0354 said:


> I also practice if the thug tries to pull it from me, I practice kicking the knee or between the legs and all that.


Sounds like a distance management problem to me which would be better solved with either distance management or a basic understanding of weapons grappling.  Have you looked at Gene LeBell's stick system?



Alan0354 said:


> I can see key is a very bad idea, you punch someone with keys in between your fingers, first thing is the back of the key is going to dig into your palm and hurt you more.


Yeah, it's a terrible idea.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> I'll let you debate with the police when you get caught with one.


1) You don't debate with cops.  If they want to arrest you, you're arrested.  It sucks, but it's the fact.
2) Unless you're in a federal jurisdiction, it doesn't matter what the federal definitions on knives are.  What matters are your state and local laws.

This website will help:




__





						Knife Rights
					






					kniferights.org
				




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> Huh?  You lose your cane?
> 
> Kirk


Yes, You watch any stick fight video, it very often people lose their stick during fights. In competition, worst that can happen is you lose the match. You lose the cane in real fight, you can lose your life.

You can practice hitting air, practice hitting bag and it will NOT help. You know you are either hitting something or not hitting something. You anticipate that already. It's a different story if you expect to hit something and it's not there. That's when the cane can go flying.

Also, in competition, you have a large space with nothing around. You only worry about the opponent. In real life, you have things around you. Like in the restaurant, you have other people, chairs and all. When you swing, you can hit stuffs that you don't expect and you can lose your cane because you are not prepare to contact at that point.

These are so bad particularly for non expert. I even modified a speed bag by deflating it, put 2lbs weight balls into the bag and tape it so it's narrow. It will not bounce when hitting the board like the normal speedbag and has no rhythm. I practice hitting only the bottom to make the chance of missing a lot higher. I use that to practice missing.

I also practice casting to make the swing a lot more compact. I practice in a tight environment to avoid hitting things accidentally.

May be for you experts, it's nothing, but it's life and death for non experts in real life self defense situation.

I am not weak particularly for my age, I can do 20 reps of pushups wearing 60lbs weighted jacket and bicep curl 10 times with 40lbs dumb bells. I still do weight lifting and work out at least 6 hours a week, so it's NOT because I cannot hold onto the cane, it just happen if you don't practice. I have been practicing 9 months already.


----------



## Alan0354

lklawson said:


> Nope.   Don't agree.  Weapons are "force multipliers."  They allow smaller, weaker, slower, less well trained people to match the force of someone larger, stronger, faster, and better trained who doesn't have a weapon.
> 
> 
> Nah.  I've been looking for years for evidence of this and it's as rare as an honest politician.  While it's theoretically possible, if even an untrained person is willing to use the weapon, instead of hesitating, then the chances of <cough> "the attacker taking it away and using it against them" is remarkably small.  For every one example you can find, there are, literally, hundreds of examples where the weapon isn't taken.
> 
> Kirk


Not if you are old or weak. Some woman think they can just carry a cane or knife and not practice. That's dangerous, if you are slow and weak, chances of the thug taking away your weapon is a lot higher.

It is very very important to practice what you carry. I spend 9 months practicing 5 days a week on the cane already and have no plan to stop any time soon.


----------



## jstacy1228

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, You watch any stick fight video, it very often people lose their stick during fights. In competition, worst that can happen is you lose the match. You lose the cane in real fight, you can lose your life.
> 
> You can practice hitting air, practice hitting bag and it will NOT help. You know you are either hitting something or not hitting something. You anticipate that already. It's a different story if you expect to hit something and it's not there. That's when the cane can go flying.
> 
> Also, in competition, you have a large space with nothing around. You only worry about the opponent. In real life, you have things around you. Like in the restaurant, you have other people, chairs and all. When you swing, you can hit stuffs that you don't expect and you can lose your cane because you are not prepare to contact at that point.
> 
> These are so bad particularly for non expert. I even modified a speed bag by deflating it, put 2lbs weight balls into the bag and tape it so it's narrow. It will not bounce when hitting the board like the normal speedbag and has no rhythm. I practice hitting only the bottom to make the chance of missing a lot higher. I use that to practice missing.
> 
> I also practice casting to make the swing a lot more compact. I practice in a tight environment to avoid hitting things accidentally.
> 
> May be for you experts, it's nothing, but it's life and death for non experts in real life self defense situation.



As someone who has needed a cane to walk since 16, I don't have a lot of experience actually using the stick to fight someone (would be pretty difficult since I'd have a balance issue if the cane is off the ground.)

That said, I do practice with bags and such just for my own edification and exercise.... it does make a difference and can help you grip the thing more steadily as you practice. Yes, it isn't the same, and there is a different mindset, but you can get around that or adapt to it as you practice. 

While not true in every case, when I see people losing their canes, it's because they do some kind of flourishes or other things with it, and they either lose their grip or get it taken from them.

Granted, this is from the perspective of a disabled cane-user, not a martial artist, so take that for what it's worth. 

Tagentially, it _feels _to me like things like canes have experienced a surge in popularity in recent years due to their relatively ubiquitous and innocuous natures. Whether that is true in an actual sense I don't know, and I follow cane stuff, so that probably affects how I see it. There seem to be quite a few able-bodied folks out there turning to the cane as something they can take with them when they can't have other options. No judgment, it's just a little bit funny to me as someone who needs a cane every day. 

I sure hope we don't come to a time where canes are viewed with more suspicion than not....


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, You watch any stick fight video, it very often people lose their stick during fights. In competition, worst that can happen is you lose the match. You lose the cane in real fight, you can lose your life.
> 
> You can practice hitting air, practice hitting bag and it will NOT help. You know you are either hitting something or not hitting something. You anticipate that already. It's a different story if you expect to hit something and it's not there. That's when the cane can go flying.
> 
> Also, in competition, you have a large space with nothing around. You only worry about the opponent. In real life, you have things around you. Like in the restaurant, you have other people, chairs and all. When you swing, you can hit stuffs that you don't expect and you can lose your cane because you are not prepare to contact at that point.
> 
> These are so bad particularly for non expert. I even modified a speed bag by deflating it, put 2lbs weight balls into the bag and tape it so it's narrow. It will not bounce when hitting the board like the normal speedbag and has no rhythm. I practice hitting only the bottom to make the chance of missing a lot higher. I use that to practice missing.
> 
> I also practice casting to make the swing a lot more compact. I practice in a tight environment to avoid hitting things accidentally.
> 
> May be for you experts, it's nothing, but it's life and death for non experts in real life self defense situation.


Ummm...  OK.


----------



## lklawson

jstacy1228 said:


> As someone who has needed a cane to walk since 16, I don't have a lot of experience actually using the stick to fight someone (would be pretty difficult since I'd have a balance issue if the cane is off the ground.)
> 
> That said, I do practice with bags and such just for my own edification and exercise.... it does make a difference and can help you grip the thing more steadily as you practice. Yes, it isn't the same, and there is a different mindset, but you can get around that or adapt to it as you practice.
> [...]
> Granted, this is from the perspective of a disabled cane-user, not a martial artist, so take that for what it's worth.


There's a small but available set of people who are teaching cane defense for people who actually need a cane to walk.  The earliest one I am aware of is "Combat Cane for Cripples" by Chas Clements (RIP).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## frank raud

Untrained with a knife? You want to tell me you are not a Grand Tuhon Supremo in some Philipino martial art, sure. But it' s not like you've never handled a knife before. You prep veggies to eat? You did that with a knife, not a spoon. You cut a steak? Guess what ? You used a knife. If you handed most people a three sectional staff, they would be clueless because they are untrained. You've had a knife in your hand daily since you were six years old. You know where the pointy end is, you know where the sharp edge is.


----------



## jstacy1228

lklawson said:


> There's a small but available set of people who are teaching cane defense for people who actually need a cane to walk.  The earliest one I am aware of is "Combat Cane for Cripples" by Chas Clements (RIP).
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Thank you! I was aware of one or two people but not this one, I will try to check that out. There are a few people who post content online that have some disabled students, so they try to tailor at least some of what they're teaching to people who are either elderly or, like me, young(ish) disabled folks. It's encouraging to see, and I'm glad we're considered. 

I fully get why the vast majority of cane stuff out there is taught from the perspective that the learner doesn't have an impairment, though. That'd be the primary audience and the majority of the students, so it makes sense. I've found that a lot of the basic stick strikes in Kali work pretty well--nothing fancy, no spinning or complexity. Doesn't look pretty but less chance of something going amiss.


----------



## lklawson

jstacy1228 said:


> Thank you! I was aware of one or two people but not this one, I will try to check that out. There are a few people who post content online that have some disabled students, so they try to tailor at least some of what they're teaching to people who are either elderly or, like me, young(ish) disabled folks. It's encouraging to see, and I'm glad we're considered.
> 
> I fully get why the vast majority of cane stuff out there is taught from the perspective that the learner doesn't have an impairment, though. That'd be the primary audience and the majority of the students, so it makes sense. I've found that a lot of the basic stick strikes in Kali work pretty well--nothing fancy, no spinning or complexity. Doesn't look pretty but less chance of something going amiss.


I'm not sure it's available any more.  Maybe his close friend Steve Gartin or his son could find a copy for you.  Chas passed a few years back, sadly.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jstacy1228

lklawson said:


> I'm not sure it's available any more.  Maybe his close friend Steve Gartin or his son could find a copy for you.  Chas passed a few years back, sadly.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Thanks for that. Now that I think about it I do seem to remember this. I once found some relatively old VHS cane tapes from many years back, but I don't recall the instructor off the top of my head.


----------



## lklawson

jstacy1228 said:


> Thanks for that. Now that I think about it I do seem to remember this. I once found some relatively old VHS cane tapes from many years back, but I don't recall the instructor off the top of my head.


His website is still avaiable: http://kuntaosilat.net/cane.htm  But I don't think anyone is minding the store.

There's a slim chance I might have a DVD.  As I mentioned, you might be able to reach out to his son or to Gartin, if he isn't hiding from the government.  I think he kind of rolled himself into the Freeman movement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Alan0354

jstacy1228 said:


> As someone who has needed a cane to walk since 16, I don't have a lot of experience actually using the stick to fight someone (would be pretty difficult since I'd have a balance issue if the cane is off the ground.)
> 
> That said*, I do practice with bags and such just for my own edification and exercise.... it does make a difference and can help you grip the thing more steadily as you practice.* Yes, it isn't the same, and there is a different mindset, but you can get around that or adapt to it as you practice.
> 
> While not true in every case, when I see people losing their canes, it's because they do some kind of flourishes or other things with it, and they either lose their grip or get it taken from them.
> 
> Granted, this is from the perspective of a disabled cane-user, not a martial artist, so take that for what it's worth.
> 
> Tagentially, it _feels _to me like things like canes have experienced a surge in popularity in recent years due to their relatively ubiquitous and innocuous natures. Whether that is true in an actual sense I don't know, and I follow cane stuff, so that probably affects how I see it. There seem to be quite a few able-bodied folks out there turning to the cane as something they can take with them when they can't have other options. No judgment, it's just a little bit funny to me as someone who needs a cane every day.
> 
> I sure hope we don't come to a time where canes are viewed with more suspicion than not....


I practice hitting the bag twice a week also, I practice swinging in air. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about losing the cane. It's when you expect to hit and miss, or you don't expect to hit and hit something on the way to your target. You are not prepare for it.

Like I said, I do enough exercise on strength. I do grip exercise every week also. I have decent grip strength compare to a lot of other people in the gym. I can only do 6 to 7 body weight pull up(175lbs), not because of my grip, my arms are the limiting factor. For grip, I can easily hang another 40lbs to 50lbs on my body and I can hold on to the bar hanging.

Problem is you do not squeeze the cane from beginning to the end of the striking arc. That will slow you down. It's like punching, you do not tighten your muscles until the point of hitting. You relax before and after the focus point. So if you hit something unexpected or miss what you try to hit, you don't necessary squeeze the cane tight away from the focusing point.

This open up a totally different can of worms.

Be aware of losing the cane by accident. It happens to the best. One of the expert here Lamont Glass ( aka Blindside here) even showed he lost his cane in the match. Look at 6:17 here:





Like I said, it's not big deal to lose the cane in a competition, but it's life and death in self defense situation. Particularly when you are nervous. I play it save, I put a loop around my wrist. I have been practicing without the loop at home, it's been months since I lose my cane. But I don't take any chance.

Also, I swing with two hands, I use a cane that is 20oz with a big foot to make it tip heavy. There's a lot of momentum to pull the cane when swinging. It's not like the rattan escrima sticks that are only about 7oz. I use a fiber filled Nylon cane.


----------



## tim po

frank raud said:


> Untrained with a knife? You want to tell me you are not a Grand Tuhon Supremo in some Philipino martial art, sure. But it' s not like you've never handled a knife before. You prep veggies to eat? You did that with a knife, not a spoon. You cut a steak? Guess what ? You used a knife. If you handed most people a three sectional staff, they would be clueless because they are untrained. You've had a knife in your hand daily since you were six years old. You know where the pointy end is, you know where the sharp edge is.


cutting a steak does absolutely NOTHING to prepare someone for defending themselves with a knife.  I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife.


----------



## jstacy1228

Alan0354 said:


> I practice hitting the bag twice a week also, I practice swinging in air. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about losing the cane. It's when you expect to hit and miss, or you don't expect to hit and hit something on the way to your target. You are not prepare for it.
> 
> Like I said, I do enough exercise on strength. I do grip exercise every week also. I have decent grip strength compare to a lot of other people in the gym. I can only do 6 to 7 body weight pull up(175lbs), not because of my grip, my arms are the limiting factor. For grip, I can easily hang another 40lbs to 50lbs on my body and I can hold on to the bar hanging.
> 
> Problem is you do not squeeze the cane from beginning to the end of the striking arc. That will slow you down. It's like punching, you do not tighten your muscles until the point of hitting. You relax before and after the focus point. So if you hit something unexpected or miss what you try to hit, you don't necessary squeeze the cane tight away from the focusing point.
> 
> This open up a totally different can of worms.
> 
> Be aware of losing the cane by accident. It happens to the best. One of the expert here Lamont Glass ( aka Blindside here) even showed he lost his cane in the match. Look at 6:17 here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, it's not big deal to lose the cane in a competition, but it's life and death in self defense situation. Particularly when you are nervous. I play it save, I put a loop around my wrist. I have been practicing without the loop at home, it's been months since I lose my cane. But I don't take any chance.
> 
> Also, I swing with two hands, I use a cane that is 20oz with a big foot to make it tip heavy. There's a lot of momentum to pull the cane when swinging. It's not like the rattan escrima sticks that are only about 7oz. I use a fiber filled Nylon cane.



I don't typically swing with two hands, but again for me that is a balance issue more than anything. My heaviest cane is probably a 2" diameter one made from persimmon root, but I don't use it or take it out often. I mostly stick to more typical 1"-diameter ash, oak, or acacia. That is around 12-14 ounces all told. 

A nylon cane was the first kind I got after many years of using the hollow medical models. It's pretty good, but I like wood.

I have both solid aluminum and solid steel ones, just to try out those materials, but I find them prohibitively heavy for prolonged, daily walking. Although from a purely defensive standpoint, they're probably some of the heartiest I own. I said the persimmon cane was my heaviest, but that's not true, it's the solid metal ones, now that I think about it.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> cutting a steak does absolutely NOTHING to prepare someone for defending themselves with a knife.  I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife.


How exactly is someone going to know you have no training with a knife? 1739 people in the US were killed with a knife in 2020. Are you suggesting that ALL or even the majority of the people that killed with a knife had training?  Cutting a steak, or prepping veggies means you are used to holding a knife, are comfortable having a blade in your hand. Are yoy under the belief that you could disarm someone of a knife because they " don't know how"  to use a blade ?


----------



## tim po

jstacy1228 said:


> I don't typically swing with two hands, but again for me that is a balance issue more than anything. My heaviest cane is probably a 2" diameter one made from persimmon root, but I don't use it or take it out often. I mostly stick to more typical 1"-diameter ash, oak, or acacia. That is around 12-14 ounces all told.
> 
> A nylon cane was the first kind I got after many years of using the hollow medical models. It's pretty good, but I like wood.
> 
> I have both solid aluminum and solid steel ones, just to try out those materials, but I find them prohibitively heavy for prolonged, daily walking. Although from a purely defensive standpoint, they're probably some of the heartiest I own. I said the persimmon cane was my heaviest, but that's not true, it's the solid metal ones, now that I thinkJ,  if you need the cane to stand up, don't use it to strike unless you want to grapple them on the ground, which may be your best avenue of training if





frank raud said:


> How exactly is someone going to know you have no training with a knife? 1739 people in the US were killed with a knife in 2020. Are you suggesting that ALL or even the majority of the people that killed with a knife had training?  Cutting a steak, or prepping veggies means you are used to holding a knife, are comfortable having a blade in your hand. Are yoy under the belief that you could disarm someone of a knife because they " don't know how"  to use a blade


googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.

when you cut veggies, you put your thumb on the spine of the knife, yes? most people will always hold every knife they hold that way, because thats the only way they have ever held a knife. try to fight with your thumb on the spine of your knife, you ARE going to lose that knife. especially if you attack someone....like me? or anyone on this site? because we are going to fight back, and you do not have a proper grip on that knife to use it as a weapon.  
all i'm saying is that an unttrained person will not even know to grip the knife thumb-over, and won't have a clue where to even strike for immediate effect, and is better off with something easier to use, like a stungun.


----------



## tim po

tim po said:


> googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.
> 
> when you cut veggies, you put your thumb on the spine of the knife, yes? most people will always hold every knife they hold that way, because thats the only way they have ever held a knife. try to fight with your thumb on the spine of your knife, you ARE going to lose that knife. especially if you attack someone....like me? or anyone on this site? because we are going to fight back, and you do not have a proper grip on that knife to use it as a weapon.
> all i'm saying is that an unttrained person will not even know to grip the knife thumb-over, and won't have a clue where to even strike for immediate effect, and is better off with something easier to use, like a stungun.





tim po said:


> as for'How exactly is someone going to know you have no training with a knife?', if you are implying that a viable method of self defense with a knife is to draw your knife, display it before your attacker and hope to scare them away? hahaha good luck


----------



## jstacy1228

tim po said:


> googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.
> 
> when you cut veggies, you put your thumb on the spine of the knife, yes? most people will always hold every knife they hold that way, because thats the only way they have ever held a knife. try to fight with your thumb on the spine of your knife, you ARE going to lose that knife. especially if you attack someone....like me? or anyone on this site? because we are going to fight back, and you do not have a proper grip on that knife to use it as a weapon.
> all i'm saying is that an unttrained person will not even know to grip the knife thumb-over, and won't have a clue where to even strike for immediate effect, and is better off with something easier to use, like a stungun.



I see there's a bit of a response to one of my posts mixed in with another response so I wanted to reply to that, although it seems to be imbedded in the quote of my post. 

Standing I can do without it, but I wouldn't be able to step in any direction unless it was touching the ground.

Pretty much the only scenario in which it would be halfway useful for me is if it's a single person facing me who cannot easily get round behind me for whatever reason. Not a great number of scenarios that will work out in my favor that way, but that's just how it shakes out what with my body and all. In real terms, it would be foolish for me to engage in this manner with an attacker. I'd still probably do it if absolutely necessary, because I am not able to run faster than an attacker and the stick will already be in my hand. 

But yeah, I'm aware that I'm just not built for my own defense. I think about it a lot precisely because I'm physically not able to run away, which is the best defense. 

I'd still try to hit someone with the stick because it's a stick and I'll have it out, but there's a very low chance of it shaking out in my favor sans any trouble or injury, that is true enough. 

Part of me wishes I did not have such a deep interest in and admiration for martial arts, and particularly the stick-based stuff. I think life would be easier.


----------



## tim po

jstacy1228 said:


> I see there's a bit of a response to one of my posts mixed in with another response so I wanted to reply to that, although it seems to be imbedded in the quote of my post.
> 
> Standing I can do without it, but I wouldn't be able to step in any direction unless it was touching the ground.
> 
> Pretty much the only scenario in which it would be halfway useful for me is if it's a single person facing me who cannot easily get round behind me for whatever reason. Not a great number of scenarios that will work out in my favor that way, but that's just how it shakes out what with my body and all. In real terms, it would be foolish for me to engage in this manner with an attacker. I'd still probably do it if absolutely necessary, because I am not able to run faster than an attacker and the stick will already be in my hand.
> 
> But yeah, I'm aware that I'm just not built for my own defense. I think about it a lot precisely because I'm physically not able to run away, which is the best defense.
> 
> I'd still try to hit someone with the stick because it's a stick and I'll have it out, but there's a very low chance of it shaking out in my favor sans any trouble or injury, that is true enough.
> 
> Part of me wishes I did not have such a deep interest in and admiration for martial arts, and particularly the stick-based stuff. I think life would be easier.


OOPS my bad, i'm new at computers and forums, avoided internet most of my life. i started replying to you and got distracted, mixed it up! 

i don't see the response i was typing to you, guess it got deleted. i was saying that striking may not be the best way to utilize your cane, if it could destabilize you.  i hope you have a teacher who can work with you, you have an unusual challenge and what works best for you will have to be found by experimentation.

i have worked with one individual who had MS. he used two crutches, and could not stand without them. we worked on him using them the way many forms of Kung Fu position their feet to off-balance their opponent as they move, working against the knee and ankle, without removing the crutches from the ground. you may want to experiment with that some.


----------



## Alan0354

jstacy1228 said:


> I don't typically swing with two hands, but again for me that is a balance issue more than anything. My heaviest cane is probably a 2" diameter one made from persimmon root, but I don't use it or take it out often. I mostly stick to more typical 1"-diameter ash, oak, or acacia. That is around 12-14 ounces all told.
> 
> A nylon cane was the first kind I got after many years of using the hollow medical models. It's pretty good, but I like wood.
> 
> I have both solid aluminum and solid steel ones, just to try out those materials, but I find them prohibitively heavy for prolonged, daily walking. Although from a purely defensive standpoint, they're probably some of the heartiest I own. I said the persimmon cane was my heaviest, but that's not true, it's the solid metal ones, now that I think about it.


For one hand, 12 to 14oz is about the heaviest you want. Of cause one can swing a 20oz+ cane with one hand, BUT how fast can they swing, also how well can they recover from a swing. It's not like sword that a lot of weight is at the handle for counter balance. Cane has to be tip heavy to generate stopping power, sword is for slicing, it doesn't have to be top heavy.

For one hand, I'd look at rattan. There's one that is strong but lighter. The Cold Steel Heavy Duty cane.
Cold Steel Heavy Duty Cane 37.5 in Overall Length 705442019183 | eBay

I bought it, the tube is strong, it's 16oz. BUT, the handle is 6oz, leaving the tube only 10oz or less( after you cut it). I don't feel it gives enough hitting power. I'd stay with Rattan. I bought a wood cane( cheap) on Amazon. It lasted a *WHOPPING one minute* before cracked into two when I hit the heavy bag.

I only buy rattan cane from this place:
Walking Cane, Rattan

This is the only place that sell rattan with skin, a little over 1" diameter. The guy is very nice, I had him picked out those that is over 15oz( before cutting) and over 1" diameter. When I cut down to 31" for my height, it's about 13oz. This is strong cane, it's burned harden and with skin. Be careful a lot of rattan sticks and canes are without skin, it's a different world. You have to have skin and harden to make rattan stiff and strong and heavier. Those 3/4" or even 7/8" escrama sticks are useless. Most without skin. It's only 6oz or so.

I do a lot of research on canes. The one I use is from United Cutlery Night Watchman cane:
UnitedCutlery.Com: Night Watchman Premium Adjustable Walking Cane - UC3129

This is the strongest, but too heavy for one hand as the diameter is only 7/8". Hard to hold tight with one hand.

Good Luck


----------



## tim po

tim po said:


> OOPS my bad, i'm new at computers and forums, avoided internet most of my life. i started replying to you and got distracted, mixed it up!
> 
> i don't see the response i was typing to you, guess it got deleted. i was saying that striking may not be the best way to utilize your cane, if it could destabilize you.  i hope you have a teacher who can work with you, you have an unusual challenge and what works best for you will have to be found by experimentation.
> 
> i have worked with one individual who had MS. he used two crutches, and could not stand without them. we worked on him using them the way many forms of Kung Fu position their feet to off-balance their opponent as they move, working against the knee and ankle, without removing the crutches from the ground. you may want to experiment with that some.


there are other options.  just because it is a 'stick' doesn't mean hitting someone with it is the only way it can become an instrument in your defense,  keep looking.


----------



## jstacy1228

tim po said:


> OOPS my bad, i'm new at computers and forums, avoided internet most of my life. i started replying to you and got distracted, mixed it up!
> 
> i don't see the response i was typing to you, guess it got deleted. i was saying that striking may not be the best way to utilize your cane, if it could destabilize you.  i hope you have a teacher who can work with you, you have an unusual challenge and what works best for you will have to be found by experimentation.
> 
> i have worked with one individual who had MS. he used two crutches, and could not stand without them. we worked on him using them the way many forms of Kung Fu position their feet to off-balance their opponent as they move, working against the knee and ankle, without removing the crutches from the ground. you may want to experiment with that some.


No worries at all! It look like a part of a response that was half-finished and ended up in the quote, but I did get the gist of what you were saying. 

I've also seen a few crutch users, even at competition level, and they seem to do pretty well (whether there are different standards for them, I truly do not know).

In most cases, I think you are probably right that swinging the cane in an actual fight would be detrimental. Given its extra reach, etc, I can't say I wouldn't do it anyway on instinct, but yes, trying to use it as a tool when I need it as a walking aid can be problematic. I'm blessed not to have been in any confrontations since I was only a little kid, and even though there's plenty of time for more of that when you're a sixteen-year-old (the age I started needing a cane) I've been blessed not to be attacked by anyone. Still, my lack of mobility and interest in martial arts in general has caused me much thought about defense over the years, I will say. 

If I could whack someone once or twice with the stick and hope that would give them pause, all would probably be well. 

But I'm disabled and look disabled despite only being in my 30s, and I don't think most people find that too intimidating--I feel they'd probably just press the attack.


----------



## jstacy1228

Alan0354 said:


> For one hand, 12 to 14oz is about the heaviest you want. Of cause one can swing a 20oz+ cane with one hand, BUT how fast can they swing, also how well can they recover from a swing. It's not like sword that a lot of weight is at the handle for counter balance. Cane has to be tip heavy to generate stopping power, sword is for slicing, it doesn't have to be top heavy.
> 
> For one hand, I'd look at rattan. There's one that is strong but lighter. The Cold Steel Heavy Duty cane.
> Cold Steel Heavy Duty Cane 37.5 in Overall Length 705442019183 | eBay
> 
> I bought it, the tube is strong, it's 16oz. BUT, the handle is 6oz, leaving the tube only 10oz or less( after you cut it). I don't feel it gives enough hitting power. I'd stay with Rattan. I bought a wood cane( cheap) on Amazon. It lasted a *WHOPPING one minute* before cracked into two when I hit the heavy bag.
> 
> I only buy rattan cane from this place:
> Walking Cane, Rattan
> 
> This is the only place that sell rattan with skin, a little over 1" diameter. The guy is very nice, I had him picked out those that is over 15oz( before cutting) and over 1" diameter. When I cut down to 31" for my height, it's about 13oz. This is strong cane, it's burned harden and with skin. Be careful a lot of rattan sticks and canes are without skin, it's a different world. You have to have skin and harden to make rattan stiff and strong and heavier. Those 3/4" or even 7/8" escrama sticks are useless. Most without skin. It's only 6oz or so.
> 
> I do a lot of research on canes. The one I use is from United Cutlery Night Watchman cane:
> UnitedCutlery.Com: Night Watchman Premium Adjustable Walking Cane - UC3129
> 
> This is the strongest, but too heavy for one hand as the diameter is only 7/8". Hard to hold tight with one hand.
> 
> Good Luck



The Watchman there was my first "real" cane after just not liking the standard medical ones I used for years and years. Those hollow aluminum ones made me feel old, and by that time I was only in my 20s. I like it but I think the hook is a bit wide (but it's marketed as more of a self-defense tool so I get why they did that).

Side note: it's always funny to me that Cold Steel marketed that as an "adjustable cane." It certainly is, if you use a hacksaw (which I had to do) but then, that would make any cane "adjustable" by that measure. 

I've often wanted to try a rattan cane, but I haven't yet because I'm concerned it will feel too light in my hand. Not for defense necessarily, just general walking around as I do. I had occasion once or twice to have to go back to lightweight canes like the usual medical ones, and it was very difficult to get used to that kind of weight again--threw off my gait completely till I could switch back to something with heft.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.
> 
> when you cut veggies, you put your thumb on the spine of the knife, yes? most people will always hold every knife they hold that way, because thats the only way they have ever held a knife. try to fight with your thumb on the spine of your knife, you ARE going to lose that knife. especially if you attack someone....like me? or anyone on this site? because we are going to fight back, and you do not have a proper grip on that knife to use it as a weapon.
> all i'm saying is that an unttrained person will not even know to grip the knife thumb-over, and won't have a clue where to even strike for immediate effect, and is better off with something easier to use, like a stungun.


Ok, let's leave facts out of this, obviously you can handle that based on your response.  I don't put my thumb on the spine of a blade when I use a paring knife to peel potatoes, a bread knife to cut a loaf of bread or a cake, or a sandwich. I don't do it when I whittle, or cut a chunk of an apple and eat it of the knife. If your entire argument is there is only one way to hold a knife when you use it in daily life life, and it is so structurally weak that anyone can grab the blade and remove it from your grip, you have a long way to go to convince me. You haven't said how you , as a theoretically trained martial artist will disarm someone with a knife. You definitely haven't said how your average street thug, without the benefit of your training will disarm someone of a knife.

The reason I compared a knife to a three sectional staff is without any training, you can slash and stab. Having used a knife daily, you know enough to hold on tightly when you stab, just like you do when cutting a watermelon. Pointy end goes in other guy works day after day. We can get fancy with the blade, or simple. It still cuts, it still kills.  Knife training isn't magic.. it makes something already deadly more efficient. How much training does it take?

I would be more confident that a person, any person could defend themselves better with a knife, without training than any other weapon (possible exception of a gun) without training. I would also say it would be harder to disarm a knife than any other weapon.


----------



## tim po

frank raud said:


> Ok, let's leave facts out of this, obviously you can handle that based on your response.  I don't put my thumb on the spine of a blade when I use a paring knife to peel potatoes, a bread knife to cut a loaf of bread or a cake, or a sandwich. I don't do it when I whittle, or cut a chunk of an apple and eat it of the knife. If your entire argument is there is only one way to hold a knife when you use it in daily life life, and it is so structurally weak that anyone can grab the blade and remove it from your grip, you have a long way to go to convince me. You haven't said how you , as a theoretically trained martial artist will disarm someone with a knife. You definitely haven't said how your average street thug, without the benefit of your training will disarm someone of a knife.
> 
> The reason I compared a knife to a three sectional staff is without any training, you can slash and stab. Having used a knife daily, you know enough to hold on tightly when you stab, just like you do when cutting a watermelon. Pointy end goes in other guy works day after day. We can get fancy with the blade, or simple. It still cuts, it still kills.  Knife training isn't magic.. it makes something already deadly more efficient. How much training does it take?
> 
> I would be more confident that a person, any person could defend themselves better with a knife, without training than any other weapon (possible exception of a gun) without training. I would also say it would be harder to disarm a knife than any other weapon.


heh. well first off, i'm not assuming that YOU don't know how to hold a knife, we're talking no training joe here. most (non-kitchen) knives are designed(square handle, ridges for placement of the thumb on the spine) to be held with the thumb on the spine. this is the correct way to hold a knife, to whittle, or peel a potato.

the question here is whether it is good advice to carry a knife for self-defense if they do not have any training.

can an untrained person fend off an attack with a knife? you bet! can an untrained person beat the snot out of an attacker bare handed! yes, happens all the time!  is it likely that with no training a person will fail to defend themselves if outmatched by their attacker(with or without a knife)? yes. only if you drew a knife, it now may belong to your attacker.

a person who does not know the first thing about self defense with a knife(imo, tied for first between how to hold the knife properly, and why never to show your knife to the attacker before they realize they are bleeding) runs the risk of making things worse. if unwilling to learn a few things, people should stick with OTC deterrents.

if someone drew a knife on me, even from 3' away, who failed to recognize the (tied for ) first rules mentioned above, that knife would be in my hands before they could blink. think about it.


----------



## tim po

jstacy1228 said:


> No worries at all! It look like a part of a response that was half-finished and ended up in the quote, but I did get the gist of what you were saying.
> 
> I've also seen a few crutch users, even at competition level, and they seem to do pretty well (whether there are different standards for them, I truly do not know).
> 
> In most cases, I think you are probably right that swinging the cane in an actual fight would be detrimental. Given its extra reach, etc, I can't say I wouldn't do it anyway on instinct, but yes, trying to use it as a tool when I need it as a walking aid can be problematic. I'm blessed not to have been in any confrontations since I was only a little kid, and even though there's plenty of time for more of that when you're a sixteen-year-old (the age I started needing a cane) I've been blessed not to be attacked by anyone. Still, my lack of mobility and interest in martial arts in general has caused me much thought about defense over the years, I will say.
> 
> If I could whack someone once or twice with the stick and hope that would give them pause, all would probably be well.
> 
> But I'm disabled and look disabled despite only being in my 30s, and I don't think most people find that too intimidating--I feel they'd probably just press the attack.


no matter what is in your hand, the will to survive is the most powerful weapon. never give up, never stop fighting.  keep exploring ways to use your cane to your advantage, even when that means using it to stabilize yourself while you defend, it is still a part of you.


----------



## Alan0354

jstacy1228 said:


> The Watchman there was my first "real" cane after just not liking the standard medical ones I used for years and years. Those hollow aluminum ones made me feel old, and by that time I was only in my 20s. I like it but I think the hook is a bit wide (but it's marketed as more of a self-defense tool so I get why they did that).
> 
> Side note: it's always funny to me that Cold Steel marketed that as an "adjustable cane." It certainly is, if you use a hacksaw (which I had to do) but then, that would make any cane "adjustable" by that measure.
> 
> I've often wanted to try a rattan cane, but I haven't yet because I'm concerned it will feel too light in my hand. Not for defense necessarily, just general walking around as I do. I had occasion once or twice to have to go back to lightweight canes like the usual medical ones, and it was very difficult to get used to that kind of weight again--threw off my gait completely till I could switch back to something with heft.


Order from Valley Martial Arts from the link I provided in my last post. Their rattan canes are not light and very sturdy. I trust them more than the wood canes. I can lean my whole body weight on it. I have 5 of them.
This is an old picture of my canes collection, except the last on on the right, the 3 rattans are from Valley Martial Arts.





I since bought two heavier and thicker rattan canes from them:




I stain them all dark brown. I don't like the burn rings. I am trying out new foots, when I find a good hard one, I'll post it.

You see in the picture I have two Cold Steel City walking stick. They came with fancy silver knobs for handle, I made my own handle and replace them to make the canes look "ordinary" so they don't attract attention. They are expensive. You see I have all the Nylon canes. I bought 3 more since. I cut it to different length as I get stronger. I don't have any wood cane, I don't trust them, they crack. I'd be worry to put my weight on wood canes, you don't know what direction is the wood grain, if it doesn't follow the curve, it will break if you put weight on the handle. They bend the rattan to create the curve, there is no weak spot. Email to Valley Martial Arts, you can ask for the weight and diameter and the owner will try to choose one for you. Like the last two I bought, it's about 13oz after I cut to 32" long. It's right at the range of your wood canes. They are strong.

I wrap the tip with rubber foam on some of them for hitting the heavy bag. I don't want to destroy my heavy kicking bags, it's for protection of the heavy bags.

Ha ha, today is my off day, I don't have to do anything. That's why I can talk and talk here!!!


----------



## jstacy1228

tim po said:


> no matter what is in your hand, the will to survive is the most powerful weapon. never give up, never stop fighting.  keep exploring ways to use your cane to your advantage, even when that means using it to stabilize yourself while you defend, it is still a part of you.


Yep. I'm coming up on 34 years just after Christmas, so I've now spent over half my life with a cane in my hand than without. It's weird to think about, honestly. The feeling of not needing to have a cane to move around is something that's getting tough to remember, honestly. I try my best to make peace with the cane being a part of me. I should feel fortunate that it's all I need to get around.


----------



## jstacy1228

Alan0354 said:


> Order from Valley Martial Arts from the link I provided in my last post. Their rattan canes are not light and very sturdy. I trust them more than the wood canes. I can lean my whole body weight on it. I have 5 of them.
> This is an old picture of my canes collection, except the last on on the right, the 3 rattans are from Valley Martial Arts.
> View attachment 27738
> 
> I since bought two heavier and thicker rattan canes from them:
> View attachment 27739
> 
> I stain them all dark brown. I don't like the burn rings. I am trying out new foots, when I find a good hard one, I'll post it.
> 
> You see in the picture I have two Cold Steel City walking stick. They came with fancy silver knobs for handle, I made my own handle and replace them to make the canes look "ordinary" so they don't attract attention. They are expensive. You see I have all the Nylon canes. I bought 3 more since. I cut it to different length as I get stronger.
> 
> I wrap the tip with rubber foam on some of them for hitting the heavy bag. I don't want to destroy my heavy kicking bags, it's for protection of the heavy bags.


Funnily enough I didn't like the scorched effect for the longest time, but now I am sort of digging it and want to try it, although at this point I still don't own a scorched one yet. Mine are black or brown, except for the ones made from tree roots which retain their natural color. I have some red ones I like, but I don't take them out often as I'm told they look a bit silly, which I suppose is true.


----------



## Oily Dragon

tim po said:


> when you cut veggies, you put your thumb on the spine of the knife, yes?


No.


----------



## Alan0354

tim po said:


> heh. well first off, i'm not assuming that YOU don't know how to hold a knife, we're talking no training joe here. most (non-kitchen) knives are designed(square handle, ridges for placement of the thumb on the spine) to be held with the thumb on the spine. this is the correct way to hold a knife, to whittle, or peel a potato.
> 
> the question here is whether it is good advice to carry a knife for self-defense if they do not have any training.
> 
> can an untrained person fend off an attack with a knife? you bet! can an untrained person beat the snot out of an attacker bare handed! yes, happens all the time!  is it likely that with no training a person will fail to defend themselves if outmatched by their attacker(with or without a knife)? yes. only if you drew a knife, it now may belong to your attacker.
> 
> a person who does not know the first thing about self defense with a knife(imo, tied for first between how to hold the knife properly, and why never to show your knife to the attacker before they realize they are bleeding) runs the risk of making things worse. if unwilling to learn a few things, people should stick with OTC deterrents.
> 
> if someone drew a knife on me, even from 3' away, who failed to recognize the (tied for ) first rules mentioned above, that knife would be in my hands before they could blink. think about it.


It is completely different cutting stuffs in the kitchen vs fighting!!! You cut stuffs on the chopping board in kitchen, you stick, slash and stab in fighting, how are these have anything to do with cutting in kitchen?

Before I got into stick fight with cane, I did buy pocket knifes, I practice slashing vertically from high to low, 45deg down from left to right, right to left. Then 45 deg up from left to right and right to left. I practice horizontal slashing. Then I had to practice sticking and stabbing.

More importantly, I have to have footwork just like punching and others, step in to attack, step back or side after the attack to get out of reach from the opponent.............

How are these have anything to do with kitchen cutting stuffs?


----------



## tim po

Alan0354 said:


> It is completely different cutting stuffs in the kitchen vs fighting!!! You cut stuffs on the chopping board in kitchen, you stick, slash and stab in fighting, how are these have anything to do with cutting in kitchen?
> 
> Before I got into stick fight with cane, I did buy pocket knifes, I practice slashing vertically from high to low, 45deg down from left to right, right to left. Then 45 deg up from left to right and right to left. I practice horizontal slashing. Then I had to practice sticking and stabbing.
> 
> More importantly, I have to have footwork just like punching and others, step in to attack, step back or side after the attack to get out of reach from the opponent.............
> 
> How are these have anything to do with kitchen cutting stuffs?


read back. i am being criticized for suggesting that a knife is a dangerous choice for a self-defense carry if a person has no training.  Aparently, since everybody handles knives in their kitchen everyday, clearly we all know how to handle a knife well enough to effectively use one for self defense, right?


----------



## frank raud

Alan0354 said:


> It is completely different cutting stuffs in the kitchen vs fighting!!! You cut stuffs on the chopping board in kitchen, you stick, slash and stab in fighting, how are these have anything to do with cutting in kitchen?
> 
> Before I got into stick fight with cane, I did buy pocket knifes, I practice slashing vertically from high to low, 45deg down from left to right, right to left. Then 45 deg up from left to right and right to left. I practice horizontal slashing. Then I had to practice sticking and stabbing.
> 
> More importantly, I have to have footwork just like punching and others, step in to attack, step back or side after the attack to get out of reach from the opponent.............
> 
> How are these have anything to do with kitchen cutting stuffs?


You have to have footwork to make a knife work? There are many situations where you can't step, and surprise,surprise, the knife still cuts.  Is it difficult to understand that you know how to use a knife, because you use a knife? As I have already said, a knife is deadly without any special training (is that a contentious issue?), but training will make it more efficient. Is that too difficult a concept to grasp?  Do people regularly use knives  in self defense situations without any special "knife fighting" training? How could they possibly do that if "knife fighting" training is an absolute requirement? A large part of using a weapon, any weapon effectively is being comfortable with the weapon.  Familiarity helps.  Is there another weapon you have spent more time with than a knife? Apparently statistics are a weak argument, so rather than post numbers, let's ask a simple question. Do you truly doubt that an untrained person with a knife is essentially defenseless, and what do you think are the odds of said person being disarmed.
Bonus points, if you're grappling with someone, standup or on the ground, would you rather be untrained with a knife, or untrained with a cane?


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> cutting a steak does absolutely NOTHING to prepare someone for defending themselves with a knife.


Sure it does.  You learn how to cut.



tim po said:


> I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife.


Well, you're free to be wrong.


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.


This is intended as satire, right?


----------



## lklawson

jstacy1228 said:


> I've often wanted to try a rattan cane, but I haven't yet because I'm concerned it will feel too light in my hand. Not for defense necessarily, just general walking around as I do. I


Not all rattan is the same. There are different breeds, some are more dense.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## frank raud

I just finished shaving with my straight razor. How many seconds did it take for you to figure out this would be better for slashing than stabbing? And you have "no" training.


----------



## frank raud

Screwdriver set. Vector. stock vector. Illustration of repair - 55551585
					

Illustration about Screwdriver set. Different types. Vector illustration. Illustration of repair, screwdriver, hand - 55551585




					www.dreamstime.com
				





How long did it take you to realize a screwdriver is better for stabbing than slashing?  And you have "no" training


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> most (non-kitchen) knives are designed(square handle, ridges for placement of the thumb on the spine)


This is demonstrably not true.
How many of these have square handles or jimping on the spine?




__





						kitchen knives at DuckDuckGo
					

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




					duckduckgo.com
				






tim po said:


> to be held with the thumb on the spine.


This is demonstrably not true.
Heck, just ask Chefs who say that thumb on the spine is "not common" and "the least popular"




__





						How to Hold A Kitchen Knife – 3 Correct Ways – KitchenKnifePlanet
					






					kitchenknifeplanet.com
				







tim po said:


> this is the correct way to hold a knife, to whittle, or peel a potato.


This is demonstrably not true.








						3 Ways to Peel Potatoes With an Ordinary Kitchen Knife - wikiHow
					

Cooks have invented many tools, including vegetable peelers of all shapes and sizes, for peeling potatoes. However, you won't need any special tools if you already own a decent kitchen knife. Potatoes grow underground, so their skins...




					www.wikihow.com
				














tim po said:


> if someone drew a knife on me, even from 3' away, who failed to recognize the (tied for ) first rules mentioned above, that knife would be in my hands before they could blink. think about it.


I have.  And I think you're over-estimating your abilities.


----------



## frank raud

https://www.grainger.ca/en/product/p/RCHC4?gclid=Cj0KCQiAweaNBhDEARIsAJ5hwbfzv_7Af6U5zyzSsbPdMIXRznwiBOJbPbmy79xqt-Hbi-3e2UnJkSEaArs-EALw_wcB&cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&ef_id=Cj0KCQiAweaNBhDEARIsAJ5hwbfzv_7Af6U5zyzSsbPdMIXRznwiBOJbPbmy79xqt-Hbi-3e2UnJkSEaArs-EALw_wcB:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!3645!3!539417265070!!!g!1405298832624!
		


How long did it take you to figure out a hawkbill knife is better for slashing than stabbing?  And you have "no" training.


----------



## frank raud

Alan0354 said:


> I did buy pocket knifes, I practice slashing vertically from high to low, 45deg down from left to right, right to left. Then 45 deg up from left to right and right to left. I practice horizontal slashing. Then I had to practice sticking and stabbing.
> 
> More importantly, I have to have footwork just like punching and others, step in to attack, step back or side after the attack to get out of reach from the opponent.............


You're thinking of knife fighting, which is different than fighting with a knife


----------



## jstacy1228

lklawson said:


> Not all rattan is the same. There are different breeds, some are more dense.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



That's good to know; I did not realize that. I'm familiar with how some hardwoods like ash or oak should feel in my hand, but I have no experience with rattan at all yet, I just like the appearance. TIL there are different breeds. Very cool.


----------



## Alan0354

jstacy1228 said:


> That's good to know; I did not realize that. I'm familiar with how some hardwoods like ash or oak should feel in my hand, but I have no experience with rattan at all yet, I just like the appearance. TIL there are different breeds. Very cool.


I gave you a good source of rattan with skin, dense. 13 to 14oz rattan of length of 31" is heavy compare to a lot of others. The heavier, the denser. I did a lot of research and bought a lot of canes to try out.


----------



## jstacy1228

Alan0354 said:


> I gave you a good source of rattan with skin, dense. 13 to 14oz rattan of length of 31" is heavy compare to a lot of others. The heavier, the denser. I did a lot of research and bought a lot of canes to try out.



Oh yeah I've bookmarked that site thank you. Possibly after the holidays I'll be able to get one of those and try it out.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> This is demonstrably not true.
> How many of these have square handles or jimping on the spine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kitchen knives at DuckDuckGo
> 
> 
> DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> duckduckgo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is demonstrably not true.
> Heck, just ask Chefs who say that thumb on the spine is "not common" and "the least popular"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to Hold A Kitchen Knife – 3 Correct Ways – KitchenKnifePlanet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kitchenknifeplanet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is demonstrably not true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Ways to Peel Potatoes With an Ordinary Kitchen Knife - wikiHow
> 
> 
> Cooks have invented many tools, including vegetable peelers of all shapes and sizes, for peeling potatoes. However, you won't need any special tools if you already own a decent kitchen knife. Potatoes grow underground, so their skins...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wikihow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have.  And I think you're over-estimating your abilities.


i'm sorry, when did you draw a knife on me??

children, please! you might recall the original thread was a person asking about easy to use weapons, for a female friend who has no traing. that is who i am responding to, anything i put forth on this thread is in respponse to that exact criteria. i wasn't talking to you guys, you go ahead and do whatever you want. but i still will go on telling untrained people( by that i mean cluelessly untrained people, ok that better? you self-trained prodigy types are a different story)  that there are better options for self defense carry.  i didn't realize i was on a middle-school forum, y'all have fun. try not to cut yourselves.


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> i'm sorry, when did you draw a knife on me??


You very specifically wrote, "if someone drew a knife on me, even from 3' away, who failed to recognize the (tied for ) first rules mentioned above, that knife would be in my hands before they could blink. think about it."  So, *at your request*, I thought about it. Then I wrote the conclusion I came to after thinking about it (per your specific request).



tim po said:


> children, please!  i didn't realize i was on a middle-school forum, y'all have fun. try not to cut yourselves.


Your problem started when you made claims that were demonstrably untrue.  If you wish to try to make yourself feel better by claiming other people are being immature by presenting actual proof contradicting your (now demonstrated) false position, well, that's your issue.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> This is intended as satire, right?


Statistics exist to support incomplete pictures with impressive sounding figures. no number is relevant except in relativity to all other numbers that complete the whole picture. statistics allow you to quote just the number that supports your argument, and nothing more. you don't have the other numbers. if anyone does, it wasn't considered relevant.


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> Statistics exist to support incomplete pictures with impressive sounding figures. no number is relevant except in relativity to all other numbers that complete the whole picture. statistics allow you to quote just the number that supports your argument, and nothing more. you don't have the other numbers. if anyone does, it wasn't considered relevant.


So we can add "statistics" to the list of things you don't really understand.  Thanks.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> So we can add "statistics" to the list of things you don't really understand.  Thanks.


one of us don't. you have only demonstrated pettiness and an extreme need to be right. and the other dude sounds like a crackhead,idk. i think i'm done 'sharing' with you.


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> one of us don't. you have only demonstrated pettiness and an extreme need to be right. and the other dude sounds like a crackhead,idk. i think i'm done 'sharing' with you.


Look, when you say things that are so obviously and easily proven wrong you are going to get called on it.  Your better bet is to accept that you said something that was wrong and just move on instead of doubling down and then making silly claims about other people's supposed drug use.

Honestly, just say, "oops.  I guess I was wrong" and it will be OK


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> Look, when you say things that are so obviously and easily proven wrong you are going to get called on it.  Your better bet is to accept that you said something that was wrong and just move on instead of doubling down and then making silly claims about other people's supposed drug use.
> 
> Honestly, just say, "oops.  I guess I was wrong" and it will be OK


i'm not wrong.


----------



## Alan0354

jstacy1228 said:


> Oh yeah I've bookmarked that site thank you. Possibly after the holidays I'll be able to get one of those and try it out.


The guy is very nice, you can ask him to pick the weight and the diameter( hard to get both right though). Just remember, my rule of thumb is weight is about 2inches for every oz. The cane is about 37 to 38" long, if you want it to be 32", you need to cut off say 6", that is 3oz. So, it you want 13oz, you ask for a 16oz stick. That's getting quite heavy. Mine cut to 31", with the rubber foot, it's 13oz.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> i'm not wrong.


Is that like you weren't wrong about using keys for self defense, or not knowing the actual purpose of a fuller ( not a blood groove)? Hey speaking of which, you never did explain how a blood groove( excuse me, a fuller) aids in penetration.

For someone who's not wrong , your batting average aint so great.


----------



## lklawson

frank raud said:


> Is that like you weren't wrong about using keys for self defense, or not knowing the actual purpose of a fuller ( not a blood groove)? Hey speaking of which, you never did explain how a blood groove( excuse me, a fuller) aids in penetration.
> 
> For someone who's not wrong , your batting average aint so great.



Well, considering that he doesn't understand statistics, the idea that his average isn't good probably doesn't trouble him at all.  







Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve

tim po said:


> googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.
> 
> when you cut veggies, you put your thumb on the spine of the knife, yes? most people will always hold every knife they hold that way, because thats the only way they have ever held a knife.


Hey, I don't care one way or the other on this argument, but anyone who has ever been taught proper knife skills for a kitchen does NOT hold the knife this way.  In fact, I've never even heard of someone putting their thumb on the spine of a chef's knife and honestly can't visualize what that would even look like. 

I have seen some folks who don't know better put their index finger on the spine as shown in the second frame of the image below.  If that's what you mean, that's a very bad habit.  

The proper way to hold a chef's knife is in the third window.  If you hold it this way, you have a lot of control over the knife, know exactly where the cutting edge is, and can chop your veggies and meat like a pro.  



So, I guess, on the one hand, we can say that some untrained people don't know how to properly hold a chef's knife.  But then, that would suggest that a person who has good knife skills in a kitchen isn't entirely untrained....


----------



## jstacy1228

Alan0354 said:


> The guy is very nice, you can ask him to pick the weight and the diameter( hard to get both right though). Just remember, my rule of thumb is weight is about 2inches for every oz. The cane is about 37 to 38" long, if you want it to be 32", you need to cut off say 6", that is 3oz. So, it you want 13oz, you ask for a 16oz stick. That's getting quite heavy. Mine cut to 31", with the rubber foot, it's 13oz.



Thanks, it is good to know that and it's very helpful. I always have to learn quite a lot about particular sticks before I buy since I use them to walk. It's fun to just try out a lot of different ones, but sadly I don't have money to do that as much as I'd like!


----------



## jstacy1228

Steve said:


> Hey, I don't care one way or the other on this argument, but anyone who has ever been taught proper knife skills for a kitchen does NOT hold the knife this way.  In fact, I've never even heard of someone putting their thumb on the spine of a chef's knife and honestly can't visualize what that would even look like.
> 
> I have seen some folks who don't know better put their index finger on the spine as shown in the second frame of the image below.  If that's what you mean, that's a very bad habit.
> 
> The proper way to hold a chef's knife is in the third window.  If you hold it this way, you have a lot of control over the knife, know exactly where the cutting edge is, and can chop your veggies and meat like a pro.
> 
> View attachment 27760
> 
> So, I guess, on the one hand, we can say that some untrained people don't know how to properly hold a chef's knife.  But then, that would suggest that a person who has good knife skills in a kitchen isn't entirely untrained....



I am embarrassed to admit that my grip does tend to go between picture 1 and picture 3, although my picture one grip usually chokes up on the handle a bit more. I do find myself going for the number 3 grip naturally quite a bit, though. I can't say I always hold it properly, I must admit.


----------



## Alan0354

jstacy1228 said:


> Thanks, it is good to know that and it's very helpful. I always have to learn quite a lot about particular sticks before I buy since I use them to walk. It's fun to just try out a lot of different ones, but sadly I don't have money to do that as much as I'd like!


One thing, if you want to use it for self defense, you should hang a heavy bag and strike it. It's very different swinging in air than to actually hitting something. This is exactly like punching and kicking, you need to practice both air and heavy bag.


----------



## Steve

jstacy1228 said:


> I am embarrassed to admit that my grip does tend to go between picture 1 and picture 3, although my picture one grip usually chokes up on the handle a bit more. I do find myself going for the number 3 grip naturally quite a bit, though. I can't say I always hold it properly, I must admit.


the biggest problem with Picture 1 is that the person is gripping it so far back he/she doesn't have good control over the blade.  if you're gripping up at the front part of the handle, close to the blade, and it's comfortable for you, you're probably fine.  That said, if you commit to using the proper grip for a short time, it will very quickly feel natural, and you'll definitely notice your speed and control improve.


----------



## jstacy1228

Steve said:


> the biggest problem with Picture 1 is that the person is gripping it so far back he/she doesn't have good control over the blade.  if you're gripping up at the front part of the handle, close to the blade, and it's comfortable for you, you're probably fine.  That said, if you commit to using the proper grip for a short time, it will very quickly feel natural, and you'll definitely notice your speed and control improve.



I definitely choke up on mine more than that in the photo. I feel like I wouldn't have as good control over the knife if I tried it that way in picture 1.


----------



## Alan0354

Guys, it is NOT that critical how to hold the kitchen knife for cutting in the kitchen!! I am speaking as an experienced cook(not professional) that cook to entertain at get together every week for years before. I did a lot of chopping, cutting and all for prep. I am not the typical stereo type man that the wife cook. As long as you have knowledge not to cut yourself, nothing is that critical. Like if you keep cutting with position 1, you will learn very fast it is not stable and you will move you hand closer to position 3. Nothing is that life or death!!!


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I have seen some folks who don't know better put their index finger on the spine as shown in the second frame of the image below.  If that's what you mean, that's a very bad habit.


It's off-topic, but... I'm going to ask anyway. Why? 


Steve said:


> The proper way to hold a chef's knife is in the third window.  If you hold it this way, you have a lot of control over the knife, know exactly where the cutting edge is, and can chop your veggies and meat like a pro.
> 
> View attachment 27760


I am by no means a chef - I think if I take it out of the package before microwaving it, that counts as cooking from scratch. But blademaking is a hobby I've enjoyed for a lot of years. 
While I don't know about the grip, I'd consider that a poor example of a chefs knife, mostly due to one thing. The bolster. Over time, with repeated sharpening, the blade will become narrower. At which point the bolster will contact the cutting surface but the edge will not. Rendering it impossible to perform the classic cut, where the blade rocks on the belly of the knife.

As far as easy to carry, easy to use self-defense weapons, you can't beat a handgun. I favor the Glock-19 myself, but my wife prefers the smaller Glock-26.


----------



## tim po

Steve said:


> Hey, I don't care one way or the other on this argument, but anyone who has ever been taught proper knife skills for a kitchen does NOT hold the knife this way.  In fact, I've never even heard of someone putting their thumb on the spine of a chef's knife and honestly can't visualize what that would even look like.
> 
> I have seen some folks who don't know better put their index finger on the spine as shown in the second frame of the image below.  If that's what you mean, that's a very bad habit.
> 
> The proper way to hold a chef's knife is in the third window.  If you hold it this way, you have a lot of control over the knife, know exactly where the cutting edge is, and can chop your veggies and meat like a pro.
> 
> View attachment 27760
> 
> So, I guess, on the one hand, we can say that some untrained people don't know how to properly hold a chef's knife.  But then, that would suggest that a person who has good knife skills in a kitchen isn't entirely untrained....


the first picture on the left (marked as incorrect for kitchen use) shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right ( the correct way to hold a kitchen knife) shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.


----------



## tim po

frank raud said:


> Is that like you weren't wrong about using keys for self defense, or not knowing the actual purpose of a fuller ( not a blood groove)? Hey speaking of which, you never did explain how a blood groove( excuse me, a fuller) aids in penetration.
> 
> For someone who's not wrong , your batting average aint so great.


i happily admitted i was wrong about the fuller, check the thread.
i stand by the use of keys as i described it. everyone who put me down can't think past punching someone with keys, or being unable to grab them in time, both things covered in my analysis. you guys are just dicks.

and citing stats does not prove anything, unless you cite the numbers those percentages were drawn from.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> i happily admitted i was wrong about the fuller, check the thread.
> i stand by the use of keys as i described it. everyone who put me down can't think past punching someone with keys, or being unable to grab them in time, both things covered in my analysis. you guys are just dicks.
> 
> and citing stats does not prove anything, unless you cite the numbers those percentages were drawn from.


Here are the stats, make of a single line what you will. Ps. No percentages were used in my comment, just a single number.   Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2019 | Statista


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> the first picture on the left shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.


Sorry (not sorry) but you are still not as educated on this topic as you think.  The "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common.  Most notably for me, it was a technique taught sometimes for renaissance era left-handed/parrying daggers.



_2. G. dall'Agocchie, Dell'arte di scrimia (Venetia, I572) ff. 35 verso-36: "Lep[ido Ranieri]: As for holding it [the dagger] in hand, how do you want it to be held? Gio[vanni dall'Agocchie]: Almost flatly [vs. enemy], directing its right edge toward the right side; in this way you will have the palm freer to beat off the enemy's sword outward, especially its point; besides, having propped up the dagger [blade] with your thumb, you will have more strength in parrying above the head; and moreover, holding it as I have just said, the dagger hilt [guard] will give a better protection."_
Some Notes on Parrying Daggers and Poniards
LEONID TARASSUK
Research Associate, Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art 
























Ref:


			http://resources.metmuseum.org/resources/metpublications/pdf/Some_Notes_on_Parrying_Daggers_and_Poniards_The_Metropolitan_Museum_Journal_v_12_1977.pdf
		




tim po said:


> the first picture on the left (marked as incorrect for kitchen use) shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right ( the correct way to hold a kitchen knife) shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> the first picture on the left (marked as incorrect for kitchen use) shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right ( the correct way to hold a kitchen knife) shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.


Why is there a cast thumb print on the ricasso of a V42 knife?


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> It's off-topic, but... I'm going to ask anyway. Why?



When you put your index finger on top, it turns your wrist over... changes the orientation of your wrist and hand.  



Dirty Dog said:


> I am by no means a chef - I think if I take it out of the package before microwaving it, that counts as cooking from scratch. But blademaking is a hobby I've enjoyed for a lot of years.
> While I don't know about the grip, I'd consider that a poor example of a chefs knife, mostly due to one thing. The bolster. Over time, with repeated sharpening, the blade will become narrower. At which point the bolster will contact the cutting surface but the edge will not. Rendering it impossible to perform the classic cut, where the blade rocks on the belly of the knife.


Can you share some examples of what you'd consider to be a good chef's knife?  I can't speak to the quality of that particular knife, but the shape and construction of the bolster looks pretty much like a classic, Western chef's knife.  Many very high quality chef's knifes have that basic profile. 

There are some forged knives that have a smaller bolster, but I think those are generally more inspired by Asian designs. 

You can also get a laser cut, stamped blade that's just fine for most people that doesn't have a bolster at all.  I have a stamped bread knife that cost me $25 and does a great job.


----------



## jstacy1228

Steve said:


> When you put your index finger on top, it turns your wrist over... changes the orientation of your wrist and hand.
> 
> 
> Can you share some examples of what you'd consider to be a good chef's knife?  I can't speak to the quality of that particular knife, but the shape and construction of the bolster looks pretty much like a classic, Western chef's knife.  Many very high quality chef's knifes have that basic profile.
> 
> There are some forged knives that have a smaller bolster, but I think those are generally more inspired by Asian designs.
> 
> You can also get a laser cut, stamped blade that's just fine for most people that doesn't have a bolster at all.  I have a stamped bread knife that cost me $25 and does a great job.



I once got a some kind of handforged Polish knife from an elderly gent who wanted to give a gift to my SIL for her help on a case of his regarding consumer law. She knew I was into knives, so now I have a pretty decent, unique knife made by a guy in a Polish village.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> When you put your index finger on top, it turns your wrist over... changes the orientation of your wrist and hand.


That makes sense.


Steve said:


> Can you share some examples of what you'd consider to be a good chef's knife?  I can't speak to the quality of that particular knife, but the shape and construction of the bolster looks pretty much like a classic, Western chef's knife.  Many very high quality chef's knifes have that basic profile.


Overall quality is going to be more about the materials and the grind. If you removed the bolster below the handle, so the edge went straight off the back of the blade, it would fix my objection.
Kind of like this:



As the blade wears, you will still be able to make contact with the surface with the entire edge.


Steve said:


> There are some forged knives that have a smaller bolster, but I think those are generally more inspired by Asian designs.


I think the other major factor is the grind. Most chef knives are a flat grind, tapering from the spine to the edge. This lets you put on a very fine edge, which is obviously good. The problem is that food tends to stick to the blade, basically like a vacuum seal. That's why a lot of blades these days have those little divots carved out of the flat. Better than a flat grind, I think, is a technique that involves a flat grind, followed by a very very slight hollow grind along the flat of the blade, then finishing with a flat grind from there to the edge. I've not yet been able to perform this grind to any degree of satisfaction.


Steve said:


> You can also get a laser cut, stamped blade that's just fine for most people that doesn't have a bolster at all.  I have a stamped bread knife that cost me $25 and does a great job.


I don't think the bolster is an issue (or as big an issue) with other styles of knives. Because so far as I know, you don't cut by rocking on the belly of the blade with other styles.
But stamped? Really? Laser cut I can understand, since you're just cutting the blank out of the steel, then grinding. But a truly stamped blade strikes me as an awful idea. I guess if they're just stamping the blade shape and then grinding, it's probably not really any different to any other method.


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> Overall quality is going to be more about the materials and the grind. If you removed the bolster below the handle, so the edge went straight off the back of the blade, it would fix my objection.
> Kind of like this:
> View attachment 27766
> As the blade wears, you will still be able to make contact with the surface with the entire edge.
> 
> I think the other major factor is the grind. Most chef knives are a flat grind, tapering from the spine to the edge. This lets you put on a very fine edge, which is obviously good. The problem is that food tends to stick to the blade, basically like a vacuum seal. That's why a lot of blades these days have those little divots carved out of the flat. Better than a flat grind, I think, is a technique that involves a flat grind, followed by a very very slight hollow grind along the flat of the blade, then finishing with a flat grind from there to the edge. I've not yet been able to perform this grind to any degree of satisfaction.
> 
> I don't think the bolster is an issue (or as big an issue) with other styles of knives. Because so far as I know, you don't cut by rocking on the belly of the blade with other styles.
> But stamped? Really? Laser cut I can understand, since you're just cutting the blank out of the steel, then grinding. But a truly stamped blade strikes me as an awful idea. I guess if they're just stamping the blade shape and then grinding, it's probably not really any different to any other method


Alright.  In a thread where you’re dumping on a new user for being uneducated, you’re speaking with authority on something you’ve already said you don’t use.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> Well, considering that he doesn't understand statistics, the idea that his average isn't good probably doesn't trouble him at all.
> 
> View attachment 27759
> 
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk





lklawson said:


> Sorry (not sorry) but you are still not as educated on this topic as you think.  The "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common.  Most notably for me, it was a technique taught sometimes for renaissance era left-handed/parrying daggers.
> 
> 
> 
> _2. G. dall'Agocchie, Dell'arte di scrimia (Venetia, I572) ff. 35 verso-36: "Lep[ido Ranieri]: As for holding it [the dagger] in hand, how do you want it to be held? Gio[vanni dall'Agocchie]: Almost flatly [vs. enemy], directing its right edge toward the right side; in this way you will have the palm freer to beat off the enemy's sword outward, especially its point; besides, having propped up the dagger [blade] with your thumb, you will have more strength in parrying above the head; and moreover, holding it as I have just said, the dagger hilt [guard] will give a better protection."_
> Some Notes on Parrying Daggers and Poniards
> LEONID TARASSUK
> Research Associate, Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ref:
> 
> 
> http://resources.metmuseum.org/resources/metpublications/pdf/Some_Notes_on_Parrying_Daggers_and_Poniards_The_Metropolitan_Museum_Journal_v_12_1977.pdf


no way is always right or always wrong. but i was certainly not considering renaissance era parrying daggers. look guys, my point was a simple one, not meant to cast myself as an expert or throw anyone else down. i'm not here to win, or even to market myself( i'm not in any of this to earn money), just share and discuss. and i definetly don't give a hoot about how to properly chop veggies. i don't really understand why some people get so uppity and insecure. perhaps it is just the way i made my original point that was unclear, or perhaps it is because i have not spoken of my experience and credentials that people like you and rank fraud over there think i am an easy target. same as in real life, i don;t mind when predators single me out. i have long accepted my role as equalizer, and i don't really need any new friends.  

plenty of people grow up tough and handle knives all the time. they know who they are, and they won't be on here asking what kind of knife to carry for self-defense, as if the right knife will be the magic for someone who is not naturally cut-out for fighting. don't know about you but i began this path at 8 years old because Sho Kosugi was so cool. i continued it as a teenager and into my twenties because i was concerned, for myself and those around me. i knew i would never be 'the tough guy' who can just overpower people. since then i have  practiced a very wide array of skills in the name of survival preparedness, and offer instruction when it is asked of me.

the knife issue actually really is something i run into over and over again, most often with younger people who have the same concerns i had at their age.  first thing i ask them, is 'where is your knife?' if their answer is 'in my pocket', i tell them to pull it out, and while they are stuffing their hand down into their pocket i draw mine  (there are a few ways i carry, all designed for concealment and easy access with either hand from any position), turn it handle side out and fake- jab them in the gut before they even have their hand back out of their pocket. thats lesson 1.
then i tell them to open their knife and hold it as though they intend to threaten me and scare me away. every single time i have done this, the untrained person holds the knife in front of them with their thumb on the spine of the blade. and every time, i snatch that knife right out of their hand before they even know what happened. that's lesson two. ( and no, i've never been cut doing this)

an exacto knife can kill. self defense skills are more about mind than body. most people after twenty some years have a good enough grasp on how to move that a knife will be an asset more than a  liability, but not all people. and the ones who need to seek advice online belong in the latter category, and should be offered good advice. i do not think it is true that any knife will make any person safer, and in fact i think it is dangerous to tell people that.


----------



## tim po

frank raud said:


> Here are the stats, make of a single line what you will. Ps. No percentages were used in my comment, just a single number.   Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2019 | Statista


so 1700 so people killed by knives. that may be fact, but it tells no story. how many people were attacked by knives and not killed? how many of them defended themselves successfully? or how about how many of those deaths were dealt by a knife that the victim brought to the party?? we don't know those numbers or so many more that would paint a more complete picture, and thus have relevance beyond a cheap way to sum up a point. 
no numbers have meaning unless compared to the rest of the numbers.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> so 1700 so people killed by knives. that may be fact, but it tells no story. how many people were attacked by knives and not killed? how many of them defended themselves successfully? or how about how many of those deaths were dealt by a knife that the victim brought to the party?? we don't know those numbers or so many more that would paint a more complete picture, and thus have relevance beyond a cheap way to sum up a point.
> no numbers have meaning unless compared to the rest of the numbers.





tim po said:


> googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.


So pointing out a single line item is not sufficient because we have no other numbers to compare it with?  Kind of the definition of statistics. But using statistics is weak. Which one is it?  By the way, I notice that in your list of questions to obscure the reality of a single line item, you neglected to include the question I originally asked ( nor have you made an attempt to answer) how many of those people who killed with a knife had previous training? And no, the answer is not to be found in line items of a government report. But as you insist that a person must be trained in order to use a knife outside of a kitchen or a whittling competition, it shouldn't be difficult for you to make an "educated" guess on how many were trained.  I'm sure we won't agree on the percentage.


----------



## tim po

frank raud said:


> So pointing out a single line item is not sufficient because we have no other numbers to compare it with?  Kind of the definition of statistics. But using statistics is weak. Which one is it?  By the way, I notice that in your list of questions to obscure the reality of a single line item, you neglected to include the question I originally asked ( nor have you made an attempt to answer) how many of those people who killed with a knife had previous training? And no, the answer is not to be found in line items of a government report. But as you insist that a person must be trained in order to use a knife outside of a kitchen or a whittling competition, it shouldn't be difficult for you to make an "educated" guess on how many were trained.  I'm sure we won't agree on the percentage.


if i have neglected answering your questions, it is because i have mostly stopped reading your posts, in favor of keeping up with more articulate and thoughtful responses (even if they disagree with me too).  how can i possibly answer your ridiculous question? as you stated, the answer is NOT provided in the report you offered, so what kind of question is that? what are you trying to prove, that i'm not omniscient? you got me, can't deny it.

i never 'insisted' that no one can use a knife effectively without training. you insisted that i was implying that, and have aggressively pursued YOUR point at my expense.

rely on googled stats, if you wish, in lieu of actual experience if you don't have any, but it's kind of a cop out to wield them like weapons online, we can't even know if those numbers are real or accurate, or just selected out of a certain context. and as you have just pointed out, there are many unanswerable questions that would need to be answered before we can define that context.


----------



## frank raud

tim po said:


> how can i possibly answer your ridiculous question? as you stated, the answer is NOT provided in the report you offered, so what kind of question is that?


It's called an opinion, obviously you have one


tim po said:


> i never 'insisted' that no one can use a knife effectively without training.


"I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife."


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> no way is always right or always wrong. but i was certainly not considering renaissance era parrying daggers.


I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me."  I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations.  On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems.  It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."

WWII Combatives:







Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:





Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:




Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip.  The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."






Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"





The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that  it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it."  The assertion is simply wrong.


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> i never 'insisted' that no one can use a knife effectively without training. you insisted that i was implying that


To be fair, what you wrote was:
"I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife." Which seems pretty close to "no one can use a knife effectively without training."



tim po said:


> rely on googled stats, if you wish, in lieu of actual experience


There's a reason that the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" exists.


----------



## Steve

lklawson said:


> I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me."  I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations.  On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems.  It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."
> 
> WWII Combatives:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:
> View attachment 27770
> 
> Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip.  The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that  it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it."  The assertion is simply wrong.


Really interesting read.  Thanks for sharing all of that.


----------



## Oily Dragon

lklawson said:


> There's a reason that the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" exists.


Yes, and that reason is false.

I hate to be the person who has to inform you of that fact, but it's the truth.









						Don't forget: The plural of anecdote is data
					

This purpose of this point is to preserve the true meaning of Raymond Wolfinger’s oft-misquoted aphorism.




					blog.danwin.com


----------



## lklawson

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes, and that reason is false.
> 
> I hate to be the person who has to inform you of that fact, but it's the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget: The plural of anecdote is data
> 
> 
> This purpose of this point is to preserve the true meaning of Raymond Wolfinger’s oft-misquoted aphorism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blog.danwin.com


The fact is that it really depends on how you define "plural."  Sufficient number of [fill-in-the-blank] will become statistically significant.  That is 100% true.

But, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance.


----------



## Oily Dragon

lklawson said:


> The fact is that it really depends on how you define "plural."  Sufficient number of [fill-in-the-blank] will become statistically significant.  That is 100% true.
> 
> But, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance.


But you misquoted Raymond Wolfinger, so as it applies to all threads going forward, you should never, ever say "the plural of anecdote is not evidence/data" again.  It's totally wrong.

It's one of the best examples of the Mandela effect I've ever seen.


----------



## lklawson

Oily Dragon said:


> But you misquoted Raymond Wolfinger, so as it applies to all threads going forward, you should never, ever say "the plural of anecdote is not evidence/data" again.  It's totally wrong.







🤣

But you're missing the point.  The point is that, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance and that's the reason the misquote exists.



Oily Dragon said:


> It's one of the best examples of the Mandela effect I've ever seen.


Play it again, Sam.


----------



## Oily Dragon

lklawson said:


> 🤣
> 
> But you're missing the point.  The point is that, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance and that's the reason the misquote exists.
> 
> 
> Play it again, Sam.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> Alright.  In a thread where you’re dumping on a new user for being uneducated,


Um... I'm doing what?


Steve said:


> you’re speaking with authority on something you’ve already said you don’t use.


I am not a chef. I made that clear. I do use knives. I see how other people use them. And I've been making blades for some 20 years. So I do think I have some idea what works and what doesn't, or what might be problematic. If you think any point I've made has been incorrect, I'm happy to hear why. I've even asked you specific questions. In the post that apparently pushed your buttons, all I did was try to answer questions you asked.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me."  I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations.  On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems.  It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."
> 
> WWII Combatives:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:
> View attachment 27770
> 
> Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip.  The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that  it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it."  The assertion is simply wrong.


I agree on this point where a dagger is concerned, i would still hold it thumb-over, but that is what i am used to.  you. i typically do not expect a dagger to be chosen for self-defense because they are illegal to carry in most places. but again, my response was to the original context of this thread, not directed at people who train in specific knife arts.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> To be fair, what you wrote was:
> "I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife." Which seems pretty close to "no one can use a knife effectively without training."
> 
> 
> There's a reason that the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" exists.


no, it actually doesn't, unless that is how you already wanted to read into it. note the word' probably' .  again, context.  it does matter.


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> I agree on this point where a dagger is concerned, i would still hold it thumb-over, but that is what i am used to.  you. i typically do not expect a dagger to be chosen for self-defense because they are illegal to carry in most places. but again, my response was to the original context of this thread, not directed at people who train in specific knife arts.


Neither the navaja, the bowie, nor the ginunting (all pictured above) are daggers.  The "foil grip" (for convenience sake) is applicable to most blade shapes, not just a dagger.  I can give more non-dagger examples if you want.









						Conventional and Unconventional Knife Grips | Personal Defense Network
					

Understanding conventional and unconventional knife grips can benefit knife-carrier in a personal protection situation. Learn some techniques from PDN.




					www.personaldefensenetwork.com
				



_"Modified Saber/Pinch Grip 
The Modified Saber, sometimes called the Foil or Pinch Grip, places the thumb on the side of the blade, orienting the blade horizontally in the hand, with the edge traditionally facing left. A very secure grip with small knives, especially ones with short handles, the pinching force between the thumb and index finger isolates any movement of the blade when applying force to the edge. Inward slashing and especially thrusting are facilitated with this grip, though backhand slashing is limited. Perhaps this grip’s strongest attribute is the ability it offers the user to pick up and strongly thrust any small knife or pointed object."_









__





						Knife Grip Tactics, Techniques, Styles, and Hand-sizing the custom knife  by Jay Fisher
					

Techniques, styles, methods of gripping a tactical combat knife for the professional with illustrations, descriptions, hand sizing methods, pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages of particular knife grip techniques.



					www.jayfisher.com
				



_"Forward Knife Grip Technique: Modified Saber
A grip is considered forward when the blade opposes the little finger. The modified saber grip technique is the same as a hammer grip, but in the modified saber grip, the thumb is placed on the side of the blade. The advantage here is the same as the hammer, in that the grip is very strong, and it is stronger than the traditional saber grip technique as more of the hand (the thumb) is actually wrapped around the knife generally. The modified saber grip also forces the hand to naturally orient the knife in a horizontal or slashing position if the hand is held in traditional square-fist orientation: the strongest, locked wrist punching position of martial arts. "_


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Hey, I don't care one way or the other on this argument, but anyone who has ever been taught proper knife skills for a kitchen does NOT hold the knife this way.  In fact, I've never even heard of someone putting their thumb on the spine of a chef's knife and honestly can't visualize what that would even look like.
> 
> I have seen some folks who don't know better put their index finger on the spine as shown in the second frame of the image below.  If that's what you mean, that's a very bad habit.
> 
> The proper way to hold a chef's knife is in the third window.  If you hold it this way, you have a lot of control over the knife, know exactly where the cutting edge is, and can chop your veggies and meat like a pro.
> 
> View attachment 27760
> 
> So, I guess, on the one hand, we can say that some untrained people don't know how to properly hold a chef's knife.  But then, that would suggest that a person who has good knife skills in a kitchen isn't entirely untrained....



I think the whole point is being missed. The skill lies in being able to stab the guy without letting him stab, punch, kick or shoot you. 

So trained is definitely better.

But I don't think grips or technique are much of an indication of someone's ability to do that. 

But knife work, due to the level of bullshido that surrounds it. Tends towards these discussions.


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> Um... I'm doing what?
> 
> I am not a chef. I made that clear. I do use knives. I see how other people use them. And I've been making blades for some 20 years. So I do think I have some idea what works and what doesn't, or what might be problematic. If you think any point I've made has been incorrect, I'm happy to hear why. I've even asked you specific questions. In the post that apparently pushed your buttons, all I did was try to answer questions you asked.


I don't know that it's so much you're incorrect, as much as it's so subjective.  Better isn't objective... it's a personal preference where there are a lot of really good knives, and they all perform really well over many, many years.  And ultimately, given enough time and use, they all wear out.  As I said before, the full bolster is really common in Western style chef's knives.  I've had one for 15 years (a well worn Wusthof classic, from the same line you posted).  I've sharpened it more times than I can remember, and use it just about every day.  It has a full bolster and still functions just fine.  Holds a great edge, too.

A lot of companies, both Japanese and German, are creating hybrid knives like the one you shared.  Those are great knives, too.  A lot of people really like them.  I don't have one, and don't plan to buy one, but if I was given one as a gift I would love it.  

I have a Japanese style chef's knife that has a half bolster, like the one you shared above.  It's pretty cool, but not my favorite.  I don't use it very often. The bolster has nothing to do with that, though.  I find the knife to be too light, and I don't like the shape of the handle.  It's super sharp, but I cut a lot of meat, and I'm much more confident that the Wusthof will handle chicken bones and such without damage than this super expensive, Japanese chef's knife.  I will pull it out when I'm doing veggies, sometimes.  

My point is, if there is a point to all of this I guess, if you don't cook, you might think it's a deal of some kind whether there's a full bolster or not.  And maybe it is to some cooks.  But in my practical experience, I don't think the bolster matters much at all.  Or maybe more accurately, if you're talking to people who are considering upgrading to a "real" chef's knife, that's not the big deal.  If someone were to ask me about one knife over another, I'd encourage them to find a way to hold both of them in their hands, and consider the weight of the knife (some like the lighter Asian style knives, and some like the heavier Western/German style), the edge geometry, the construction of the handle, and the size/length of the blade.  In general, I'd say get the longest blade you're comfortable using and feel like you have good control with. 

As for hollow grinds, if you want a bunch of knives, sure. It might help you a little with potatoes.  Personally, I have two knives that I use regularly, and the rest I could take or leave.  I could get by with just my 8" Wusthof classic chef's knife and my cheap, but sharp bread knife that was "stamped" (or laser cut or who knows... not forged).  

So, all of that said, if you are offering to make me a chef's knife with a half bolster, I would love it.  DM me and I'll give you my address where to send it.  I prefer an 8" blade, but would be very pleased with a 9 or 10" blade, too.  And I prefer a western style handle to the rounded Asian/Japanese style.


----------



## lklawson

drop bear said:


> I think the whole point is being missed. The skill lies in being able to stab the guy without letting him stab, punch, kick or shoot you.
> 
> So trained is definitely better.
> 
> But I don't think grips or technique are much of an indication of someone's ability to do that.







__





						How they hold the knife doesn't tell you if they know how to use it.
					

How they hold the knife doesn't tell you if they know how to use it.



					cbd.atspace.com


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> I think the whole point is being missed. The skill lies in being able to stab the guy without letting him stab, punch, kick or shoot you.
> 
> So trained is definitely better.
> 
> But I don't think grips or technique are much of an indication of someone's ability to do that.
> 
> But knife work, due to the level of bullshido that surrounds it. Tends towards these discussions.


I'm trying to stay out of that entire discussion.  FWIW, I think someone who has never held a knife could stab someone... and someone who has trained to stab someone could probably do it a little better.  

I do know that if you hold a knife correctly, you can chop vegetables more efficiently.


----------



## tim po

lklawson said:


> Neither the navaja, the bowie, nor the ginunting (all pictured above) are daggers.  The "foil grip" (for convenience sake) is applicable to most blade shapes, not just a dagger.  I can give more non-dagger examples if you want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conventional and Unconventional Knife Grips | Personal Defense Network
> 
> 
> Understanding conventional and unconventional knife grips can benefit knife-carrier in a personal protection situation. Learn some techniques from PDN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.personaldefensenetwork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Modified Saber/Pinch Grip
> The Modified Saber, sometimes called the Foil or Pinch Grip, places the thumb on the side of the blade, orienting the blade horizontally in the hand, with the edge traditionally facing left. A very secure grip with small knives, especially ones with short handles, the pinching force between the thumb and index finger isolates any movement of the blade when applying force to the edge. Inward slashing and especially thrusting are facilitated with this grip, though backhand slashing is limited. Perhaps this grip’s strongest attribute is the ability it offers the user to pick up and strongly thrust any small knife or pointed object."_
> View attachment 27776
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knife Grip Tactics, Techniques, Styles, and Hand-sizing the custom knife  by Jay Fisher
> 
> 
> Techniques, styles, methods of gripping a tactical combat knife for the professional with illustrations, descriptions, hand sizing methods, pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages of particular knife grip techniques.
> 
> 
> 
> www.jayfisher.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Forward Knife Grip Technique: Modified Saber
> A grip is considered forward when the blade opposes the little finger. The modified saber grip technique is the same as a hammer grip, but in the modified saber grip, the thumb is placed on the side of the blade. The advantage here is the same as the hammer, in that the grip is very strong, and it is stronger than the traditional saber grip technique as more of the hand (the thumb) is actually wrapped around the knife generally. The modified saber grip also forces the hand to naturally orient the knife in a horizontal or slashing position if the hand is held in traditional square-fist orientation: the strongest, locked wrist punching position of martial arts. "_
> View attachment 27775


hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way. my advice for newbies will always be to hold that knife as tightly and dearly as your hold your life. i am done discussing this point. thank you all for your thoughtful contributions.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I don't know that it's so much you're incorrect, as much as it's so subjective.  Better isn't objective... it's a personal preference where there are a lot of really good knives, and they all perform really well over many, many years.  And ultimately, given enough time and use, they all wear out.  As I said before, the full bolster is really common in Western style chef's knives.  I've had one for 15 years (a well worn Wusthof classic, from the same line you posted).  I've sharpened it more times than I can remember, and use it just about every day.  It has a full bolster and still functions just fine.  Holds a great edge, too.


I agree it's very subjective, and I think I explicitly stated that in at least one post. It's entirely possible that my concern about the bolster only arises because I sharpen on a belt. Which removes more metal than hand sharpening. 
The grind I was talking about isn't actually a hollow grind in the classic sense, it's a combination grind. The idea makes sense to me, and I've heard good things, but as I said I've not yet done one so it's hearsay. The crossection is like this:



So the actual edge is still the classic flat grind.

But all that aside, the part of your post that confused me was this:


Steve said:


> Alright.  In a thread where you’re dumping on a new user for being uneducated,


I can't recall doing this. Can you enlighten me?


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> I agree it's very subjective, and I think I explicitly stated that in at least one post. It's entirely possible that my concern about the bolster only arises because I sharpen on a belt. Which removes more metal than hand sharpening.
> The grind I was talking about isn't actually a hollow grind in the classic sense, it's a combination grind. The idea makes sense to me, and I've heard good things, but as I said I've not yet done one so it's hearsay. The crossection is like this:
> View attachment 27779
> So the actual edge is still the classic flat grind.



I understand.  If you like it the dimples, by all means, get that.  As I said, it will help you with the potatoes, if you’re inclined to have a bunch of knives.  It’s one of those things that sells more knives.  

As for the rest, If we agree that it’s subjective, and you don’t cook, I think I’m good. Thanks for sharing your opinions.  

If you make a good knife and want to make me a knife, I’m all for it.  Put the dimples in and maybe I’ll see the light.  I would sincerely appreciate the gift.  Otherwise, I don’t think your “better” is actually better. It’s just different.  



Dirty Dog said:


> But all that aside, the part of your post that confused me was this:
> 
> I can't recall doing this. Can you enlighten me?


You guys are all having a go at @tim po , and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use.  I think it’s kind of hypocritical.  That’s it.  I’ve moved on.  If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.


----------



## geezer

Alan0354 said:


> Be aware of losing the cane by accident. It happens to the best. One of the expert here Lamont Glass ( aka Blindside here) even showed he lost his cane in the match. Look at 6:17 here:


That was a nice clip of Lamont losing his stick. I've never sparred hard core, Dog Bros. style ...but even in light sparring I've lost a stick like that often enough ...too often. Especially wearing heavy gloves. But I must say, Lamont's recovery was _inspired._ Spontaneous. Beautiful.


----------



## Alan0354

geezer said:


> That was a nice clip of Lamont losing his stick. I've never sparred hard core, Dog Bros. style ...but even in light sparring I've lost a stick like that often enough ...too often. Especially wearing heavy gloves. But I must say, Lamont's recovery was _inspired._ Spontaneous. Beautiful.


I know, it's impressive how fast he reacted and got the cane back.

It is very common to lose the stick in fighting, anyone that doesn't think so must not been doing stick fight and talk only. I used to lose my stick because I accidentally hit the furniture in the middle of the swing. Also when I expect to hit something and missed. That can be deadly in self defense situation.

Have I been practicing hit and miss with the deflated and weighted speed bag. It doesn't bounce in a predictable way the normal speedbag does. To make it more difficult, I aim at the bottom tip of the thing to increase the chance of missing. So 50% of the time I swing, I miss. I get used to missing and still holding onto the cane.

I have not been losing the cane for months during exercise already, but I still use a loop around my wrist as insurance. When I walk out on the street, the loop is always around my wrist of my left hand that carry the cane. Ha ha, I make it a point I don't use the cane to walk. I hold it but the tip never even touch the ground. More like a polite way to say " Don't tread on me!!"


----------



## lklawson

tim po said:


> hold the knife however you want,


How I want?  I like what Dwight called "The Universal Grip."  I don't much favor the foil grip.  But, even so, it is a 100% valid method.



tim po said:


> if you have trained to use it that way.


Or of it works.  "If you have trained to use it that way" doesn't have to have anything to do with it.  Does it work for you?  Then use it.




tim po said:


> my advice for newbies will always be to hold that knife as tightly and dearly as your hold your life.


Which is also perfectly valid and a common instruction, often favored by WWII Combatives instructors who, ims, sometimes referred to it as "the convulsive grip."

The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.


----------



## lklawson

Steve said:


> You guys are all having a go at @tim po ,


Me as much as anyone else.  But I'm not "dumping on" him nor "having a go."  I specifically took exception to his claim that a thumb-on-the-flat-of-the-knife grip was, as he wrote, quoting him, "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.  I've given at least 9 different, unique, examples proving that the technique is both valid and common.  Nevertheless, he has yet to admit the validity.  The closest I've gotten to a mea culpa is when he wrote, "hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way."

I also took exception to his claim, again quoting, "I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife." 

And then again to his assertion of, "googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that."

When a user, new or otherwise, writes things that are just flat wrong, and easily demonstrated so, then it's not particularly unusual for someone to correct those statements.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Alan0354 said:


> It is very common to lose the stick in fighting


It brings up some very interesting lines of questioning for me.  I think I know the answers but I'm going to speak with some friends about what I'm thinking.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve

lklawson said:


> Me as much as anyone else.  But I'm not "dumping on" him nor "having a go."  I specifically took exception to his claim that a thumb-on-the-flat-of-the-knife grip was, as he wrote, quoting him, "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.  I've given at least 9 different, unique, examples proving that the technique is both valid and common.  Nevertheless, he has yet to admit the validity.  The closest I've gotten to a mea culpa is when he wrote, "hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way."
> 
> I also took exception to his claim, again quoting, "I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife."
> 
> And then again to his assertion of, "googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that."
> 
> When a user, new or otherwise, writes things that are just flat wrong, and easily demonstrated so, then it's not particularly unusual for someone to correct those statements.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Sounds good.  I also disagreed with his claim that folks holding a knife are probably going to stab people wrong.  Correcting statements is 90% of dialogue on this forum.  

For what it's worth, it was the disconnect between the comments about the user's education and general knowledge (not the claims themselves), and then DD saying (paraphrasing), "I don't cook, but I'm going to tell you at length why that very common and popular design for a chef's knife is a bad design _for cooks_."  I'm sure he thought he was being really helpful.  As I said, I'm game to help figure out if he's right or not.  I cook and bake all the time.  Since he doesn't cook, I'm more than happy to give him some practical feedback, if he's interested in making a knife for me.  I'd treasure the gift.

Now, I hope that explains things well enough.  If @Dirty Dog wants to know where to send that knife, or there is more to discuss, I recommend it not be done on the public forum.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> I understand.  If you like it the dimples, by all means, get that.  As I said, it will help you with the potatoes, if you’re inclined to have a bunch of knives.  It’s one of those things that sells more knives.


I've never ground in dimples either. I merely pointed out why lots of chefs knives have them. The (relatively few) chefs knives I have made have been the classic flat grind from spine to edge. I also do not sell my knives. I've given quite a few to family and friends, or donated them as prizes.


Steve said:


> You guys are all having a go at @tim po ,


"You guys"? I don't believe I have done any such thing. I am to blame for anything anyone posts that you disagree with?


Steve said:


> and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use.  I think it’s kind of hypocritical.  That’s it.  I’ve moved on.  If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.


I know blade making. 
I have never built a turbo engine (I prefer superchargers) but that doesn't mean I cannot discuss the pros and cons of turbos.
You might also (or apparently not) note that the only authoritative statements I've made have been on the technical details of blademaking. Other comments have been clearly qualified as being opinion or hearsay.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> You guys are all having a go at @tim po , and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use.  I think it’s kind of hypocritical.  That’s it.  I’ve moved on.  If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.


Purely for context, I looked into it out of curiosity, and Dirty Dog's first post in this thread (since Tim Po came), was the one directed to you asking about knives. It seems to be lawson/frank that are arguing with him. I checked his other thread in case I was missing something, and there's a lot of people that commented there but dirty dog isn't one.

My guess is you got his posts mixed up with Lawson's-I've done that before since they've got a similar writing style and have similar-ish profile pictures.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> Sounds good.  I also disagreed with his claim that folks holding a knife are probably going to stab people wrong.  Correcting statements is 90% of dialogue on this forum.
> 
> For what it's worth, it was the disconnect between the comments about the user's education and general knowledge (not the claims themselves), and then DD saying (paraphrasing), "I don't cook, but I'm going to tell you at length why that very common and popular design for a chef's knife is a bad design _for cooks_."  I'm sure he thought he was being really helpful.  As I said, I'm game to help figure out if he's right or not.  I cook and bake all the time.  Since he doesn't cook, I'm more than happy to give him some practical feedback, if he's interested in making a knife for me.  I'd treasure the gift.
> 
> Now, I hope that explains things well enough.  If @Dirty Dog wants to know where to send that knife, or there is more to discuss, I recommend it not be done on the public forum.


Oops, read this after I went through and responded to your other post. Oh well, kept me a bit busy during my lunch.


----------



## Steve

Dirty Dog said:


> I've never ground in dimples either. I merely pointed out why lots of chefs knives have them. The (relatively few) chefs knives I have made have been the classic flat grind from spine to edge. I also do not sell my knives. I've given quite a few to family and friends, or donated them as prizes.



Alright.  Let's talk about dimples.  So, for what it's worth, I have seen the dimples referred to as a "granton edge" though it's not so much about the edge as it is those dimples.  I just don't see them very often on the higher end knives.  Where I've seen them most often is on grocery store type knives from brands like calphalon.  That isn't to say that higher end companies don't make them... I just don't believe they're seen as a real feature.  

And to reiterate, some might like them.  I personally don't really see a need.  For them to really do anything, I think they'd need to be pretty deep.  The only thing I ever chop or cut that creates a vacuum effect is a potato.   My wife doesn't cook often, but she does from time to time.  She has a 6" santoku knife from the grocery store, and that's what she likes.  It doesn't hold an edge very long, but she likes the shape.  It has the dimples, and when I chop taters with that, they still stick.  Is it easier to push them off?  I don't know... maybe?  A little?  I don't see much of a difference.  

Last thing I'll say on this is, if longevity is your objection to a full bolster, why aren't you concerned about longevity with the dimples?  Once your blade is sharpened down to where those dimples are, the blade will be useless. 



Dirty Dog said:


> "You guys"? I don't believe I have done any such thing. I am to blame for anything anyone posts that you disagree with?


No, if I mixed you up with others, my bad.  



Dirty Dog said:


> I know blade making.
> I have never built a turbo engine (I prefer superchargers) but that doesn't mean I cannot discuss the pros and cons of turbos.
> You might also (or apparently not) note that the only authoritative statements I've made have been on the technical details of blademaking. Other comments have been clearly qualified as being opinion or hearsay.


Sure, and as I've said several times, you're highlighting things that are so subjective that you will find plenty of folks representing all sides.  It's hard to say "better" or "right" to any of it, because ultimately, it's about ending up with chopped veggies and meat.  If you get to the end and there's no human DNA in the food, you're probably doing just fine.  

That said, I will once again reiterate my sincere offer to test your knives.  I'll be happy to share my honest opinion with you.  What I'm really interested in is an Asian gyoto style chef's knife shape, but profiled so that it can stand up to daily use from chopping veggies and processing meat.  I've toyed with the idea of picking up a hybrid, but then I think how many knives do I need?  I'd rather have one really well made knife that I love to use than a drawer full of knives that I don't use, or only use for one thing.


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## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Purely for context, I looked into it out of curiosity, and Dirty Dog's first post in this thread (since Tim Po came), was the one directed to you asking about knives. It seems to be lawson/frank that are arguing with him. I checked his other thread in case I was missing something, and there's a lot of people that commented there but dirty dog isn't one.
> 
> My guess is you got his posts mixed up with Lawson's-I've done that before since they've got a similar writing style and have similar-ish profile pictures.


Maybe so.  

Edit:  Just want to reiterate that the thread really seems to have gone off track.  I've suggested more than once that the off topic posts and questions could be addressed in DMs.  I'm happy to continue answering questions or whatever here, as folks seem to want to do, but the thread is pretty far afield at this point. 

To circle back to the beginning, I was just pointing out that people who use knives to cook are learning knife skills, that there is some technique, and that's pretty much it.  I used a picture from the internet to illustrate how to hold a chef's knife, and DD commented on the bolster in the picture.... and here we are, talking about dimples, bolsters, and how to use a chef's knife.


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> Um... I'm doing what?
> 
> I am not a chef.



Being excellent as always.  You don't need to be a chef, you're good enough the way you are.

I'm a chef.  I have about 20 knives I use strictly for cooking.   That's on top of the dozen or so traditional killing instruments locked up (loosely) in my training room.

I'll be totally honest...sometimes I do kung fu stuff in the kitchen, involving knives.  Hundreds of dishes, maybe a thousand.  

I have yet to cut myself once (with a knife, while cooking), so I must know how to handle cutting flesh.....y fruits, vegetables, meats, and legumes well.  And I think the idea of a single solution to this whole discussion of "how do wield knife" silly.  There is never ONE Way.


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## Oily Dragon

Steve said:


> I do know that if you hold a knife correctly, you can chop vegetables more efficiently.


See?  This is both true and not true.  There is no one "correctly", there are many.

Again, just the gourmet in me talking, not the martial arts dude.


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## Steve

Oily Dragon said:


> See?  This is both true and not true.  There is no one "correctly", there are many.
> 
> Again, just the gourmet in me talking, not the martial arts dude.


It's like parenting and fighting and other results oriented activities, if you get to the end and it worked, you did it right. 

Or maybe it's more like golf.  You can always tell someone who was taught to play golf and someone who just sort of figured it out on their own.  But some folks have made some pretty bizarre swings work and have seen success.  In spite of individual success, though, if you tried to teach kids to swing like any of these people, you'd be run off the course.


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## Oily Dragon

Steve said:


> It's like parenting and fighting and other results oriented activities, if you get to the end and it worked, you did it right.
> 
> Or maybe it's more like golf.  You can always tell someone who was taught to play golf and someone who just sort of figured it out on their own.  But some folks have made some pretty bizarre swings work and have seen success.  In spite of individual success, though, if you tried to teach kids to swing like any of these people, you'd be run off the course.



Yeah.

I'll give an example of "not correctly".  Whenever your mind is not on the knife.

I often think of this when I watch cooking tournament shows.  Sometimes people cut themselves from checking the clock, and other distractions.

In a knife fight?  Probably alot of potential distractions.  Wouldn't know, never been in one.


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