# Aikido & Bagua Chuan cross training.



## ST1Doppelganger (Jul 9, 2014)

I'm just curious to see if any other martial artist on this forum have cross trained in Bagua Chuan and Aikido?

I now there's a controversial belief that some martial artist believe Morihei Ueshiba might have learned or at least observed bagua Chuan while studying Buddhism in China and then mixed it with the Ju Jitsu he already new making aikido when he went back to japan. 

What do you think of this statement?
Do you think its possible if not where do you think the similarities come from between the two different styles.


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## K-man (Jul 9, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I'm just curious to see if any other martial artist on this forum have cross trained in Bagua Chuan and Aikido?
> 
> I now there's a controversial belief that some martial artist believe Morihei Ueshiba might have learned or at least observed bagua Chuan while studying Buddhism in China and then mixed it with the Ju Jitsu he already new making aikido when he went back to japan.
> 
> ...


I have played a little with Bagua and I study Aikido. Personally I think they are chalk and cheese. Ueshiba was a master of Daito Ryu and I think it pretty obvious where Aikido developed from. He was not a big man so he had to make his art effective against bigger stronger opponents, which he succeeded in doing by using 'softness' to overcome strength. The one thing that they have in common is Chi or Ki but I suspect that was already present at the higher levels of Daito Ryu.
:asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 9, 2014)

I have heard the stories and I don't believe them, I have also heard the stories that say it had nothing to do with Bagua and I tend to believe those

I have done bagua and I watch Aikido every weekend and they have circles but I do not see them as the same. But then I am looking at this from the peanut gallery as it applies to Aikido


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jul 9, 2014)

I've been practicing the little bit of bagua I know for the past 10 years and just now started doing aikido. 

I have found that the bagua can flow in and out of the aikido neutralizations and I think they do compliment each other but are completely different entities. 

I still wonder about the history of aikido and think it is odd or coincidental that  Morihei Ueshiba founded aikido after coming back from studying Buddhism in China. 

I will say im really enjoying the aikido even though the one I'm studying is allot more direct and linear then most others.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 9, 2014)

Oh, I do not doubt they compliment each other, I just don't think the idea came from Baguazhang


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jul 9, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Oh, I do not doubt they compliment each other, I just don't think the idea came from Baguazhang



I use to really think it was a high possibility but thats because I knew mostly about CMA but do realize there's allot of JMA styles out there that I didn't and don't know about. 

I will say the hand strikes are very similar to empty handed sword strikes and can see how circular movements would be beneficial in disarming as well as using an edged weapon and might be another reason Morihei Ueshiba  used the big circles.


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## K-man (Jul 9, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Oh, I do not doubt they compliment each other, I just don't think the idea came from Baguazhang


I believe there are certain principles that extend across all the martial arts. The principles in Aikido are the same as it jujutsu, the same as in Systema and the same as in Okinawan Karate. I even teach those principles in Krav Maga and if there are two totally different arts they would be Aikido and Krav. Obviously the same principles are found in the CMAs so to compare certain aspects of Bagua and Aikido and find similarity doesn't mean that they are related. It just means the principles applying across the different arts provide a commonality.
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> The principles in Aikido are the same as it jujutsu,



But the Aikido and Judo (came from JJ) are quite different arts. All the leg techniques such as bite, scoop, sticky, sweep, cut, hook, lift, block, trip, twist, ... are not used in Aikido. 

In 

- Judo, you don't see many throws that use hands only. 
- Aikido, almost all throws are using hands without using legs.

Have you seen any Aikido guy did this?


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## K-man (Jul 9, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But the Aikido and Judo are quite different arts. All the leg techniques such as bite, scoop, sticky, sweep, cut, hook, lift, block, trip, twist, ... are not used in Aikido.
> 
> In
> 
> ...


There is only one throw in our Aikido. The rest are really just takedowns where, in real life, your attacker falls to the ground. The 'throws' that you mainly see in Aikido are your partner taking ukemi. They would be what you are calling 'hand throws'. That is just part of the training that teaches you how to blend with your partner, a training technique that is much maligned by those who don't understand what the training is for. In real life it just isn't going to happen that way.

But but that is beside the point. In judo there is a lot of physical clashing. That is why there are wright divisions and that is why you need the leg sweeps. What you are pointing out are the differences. What I was talking about are the underlying principles. For example, both Aikido and Judo utilise bio mechanics and circles. Good judo involves using your opponent's momentum or point of balance to enable the throw. In that scenario the throw becomes effortless, not involving physical strength, the same as you find in good Aikido.
:asian:


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## blindsage (Jul 10, 2014)

My teacher has over 40 years training in Aikido and 30 years in Bagua.  They blend very well in what we do, but he is very clear, he's heard all the theories about them being related and doesn't believe a word of them.  Having practiced the principles and practices of both I have to agree.


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## blindsage (Jul 10, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Aikido, almost all throws are using hands without using legs.


No.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2014)

blindsage said:


> No.




What he said


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## oaktree (Jul 11, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I'm just curious to see if any other martial artist on this forum have cross trained in Bagua Chuan and Aikido?
> 
> I now there's a controversial belief that some martial artist believe Morihei Ueshiba might have learned or at least observed bagua Chuan while studying Buddhism in China and then mixed it with the Ju Jitsu he already new making aikido when he went back to japan.
> 
> ...



I practice Baguazhang and Daito ryu Aikijujutsu. Some similarities then there are some big differences. Best example is Baguazhang is a circle Daito ryu is a square both are some what round. It really depends on the person to notice the similarities or and differences. One could make the same comparison to Taijiquan listening and sticking to the Escrima drills. 

The whole Ueshiba Baguazhang thing is BS 
?The Elusive Chinese Influence on Aikido,? by Stanley Pranin


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jul 11, 2014)

oaktree said:


> I practice Baguazhang and Daito ryu Aikijujutsu. Some similarities then there are some big differences. Best example is Baguazhang is a circle Daito ryu is a square both are some what round. It really depends on the person to notice the similarities or and differences. One could make the same comparison to Taijiquan listening and sticking to the Escrima drills.
> 
> The whole Ueshiba Baguazhang thing is BS
> ?The Elusive Chinese Influence on Aikido,? by Stanley Pranin



Yes I've read that article before. 

I'm was just looking for actual experience and opinions from people that have studied both arts and appreciate your input.


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## oaktree (Jul 11, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But the Aikido and Judo (came from JJ) are quite different arts. All the leg techniques such as bite, scoop, sticky, sweep, cut, hook, lift, block, trip, twist, ... are not used in Aikido.
> 
> In
> 
> ...



Daito ryu has all of that. In Daito ryu we do not let the other guy grab us ideally we use "Aiki" to disrupt him. There are techniques in Daito ryu that have plenty of scoops, hooking and so on as Takeda did study Sumo. A person may only see hands but it is the things you do not see that make the hands work. A good amount of Daito ryu also comes from swordsmanship which is most likely where most of the circular types of movement come from it is very clear that Shihon nage developed this way and in the higher levels most likely becomes more fluid and circular then say how the swordsman would do it.


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## slink (Jul 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But the Aikido and Judo (came from JJ) are quite different arts. All the leg techniques such as bite, scoop, sticky, sweep, cut, hook, lift, block, trip, twist, ... are not used in Aikido.
> 
> In
> 
> ...



We used to do that move, or something quite similar, in Nihon Goshin Aikido.  It wasn't something that you saw a lot though.  I've never studied it before but considering Tomiki sensei's influences I would be willing to bet that Shodokan aikidoka do something like this too.


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## dlcox (Jul 22, 2014)

Firstly I would like to state that I do not study either Aikido or Baguazhang, so I am certainly no expert, but I have been exposed to both arts. From what I've been told Baguazhang is based upon the sword movements of the Miao Dao which is a sword very similar to the Japanese Katana. It is no secret that many Jujutsu/Aikijutsu arts are based upon the movements of the Katana. This is most likely where the superficial similarities between Aikido and Baguazhang lie, within the movements of the sword art. I think it also likely that their similarities lie in their philosophy and approach to combat, one ounce to deflect a thousand pounds, softness to overcome hardness, yield versus attack etc. There are also other methods of Bagua in TCMA that concern more footwork and does not focus on the circle walking and palm changing as found in Baguazhang. Some focus on a square encased within a circle or are focused on the 8 directions emanating from the center of the circle. Bagua and the 5 Elements are old concepts with many interpretations that have found their way into many combative arts, similarities will undoubtedly be present in many of the arts that have pulled from these concepts.


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## Chris Li (Aug 16, 2014)

You may be interested in this article - Morihei Ueshiba, Bruce Frantzis and Bagua.

Best,

Chris


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