# Leg Locks and self defense



## Hanzou (Jun 21, 2016)

Video about self defense applications for Leg locks;






Not the best sound quality, and I thought the first demonstration using the back mount wasn't very applicable for self defense. However, the open guard application was pretty solid.

So given they're strong self defense applications, why aren't leg locks more widely trained (even in grappling arts)? They're efficient, dangerous, and can be applied from a variety of positions.


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## Juany118 (Jun 21, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Video about self defense applications for Leg locks;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it is two fold.  The first is noted in your own premise they are more dangerous than other maneuvers, both for the person attempting to apply it and the one on the receiving end.  Second, while I haven't studied a grappling focused art in years, those that I did study, at least in the way they were taught to me, also had in mind the ability to disengage rapidly if necessary and the maneuver makes rapid disengagement, not impossible, but more problematic.

Finally I believe that it could be, in terms of actual self defense application it is of limited value, from a legal and practical standpoint.  In terms of legal...

In a real self defense situation you are not going for a submission, you are looking to end a threat. You can end the threat via that maneuver depending on what other techniques you apply along side it/how far you go, but intention choking out another person could easily be seen as disproportionate use of force if you were only addressing a misdemeanor assault as it has the risk of of death or permanent disablement.  If you applied other locks and a joint was broken the same concept could apply.

In terms of practicality...

1. In say a bar fight type scenario your opponent's friends, if they have them, are coming to his aid and you are now rather vulnerable to them, and if you go to disengage you have the issue I note above.

2. Unless you are VERY skilled at it applying it in the chaos of a real fight in and of itself is problematic.

That all said I do actually see the benefit of training in it, even if only to understand the mechanics of it so you can avoid/escape it as the still growing popularity of MMA means it could be used against you.  That said not that many instructors teach things with that perspective in mind and if they aren't training it with the specific intent of use, sometimes they don't train it. /Shrug.


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## Danny T (Jun 21, 2016)

I feel it is because most grappling arts today are trained for competition and utilizes competition rules for training. Only the more advanced levels allow leg locks. For the average person learning some fight back self defense actions the amount of time it takes to become proficient enough to utilize them in a high stress situation makes them inefficient and not effective.
Those in the grappling arts should be able to utilize them after training and developing the skill set required. Only then will they be effective.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 21, 2016)

Most people don't practice leg locks because they don't know how to do them effectively.

Many grapplers don't use them (or underuse them) because they are training for sport competition and the rules they compete under either don't allow leg locks or don't allow them until certain belt levels or have other rules limiting their effectiveness (IBJJF no reaping rule).

I love log locks, but they wouldn't be my preferred options in a self-defense situation because they do involve tangling yourself up with an opponent which can make it difficult to disengage quickly. That said, I do have some entries into leg locks which are applicable for that context when I'm _already_ entangled with someone and stuck on the bottom. For example, I frequently hit leg locks while in the process of escaping full mount. In that situation, I'm already in a place where it would be difficult to just quickly disengage. Might as well break my opponent's leg on my way out.


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## Hanzou (Jun 21, 2016)

Thanks for the responses everyone.



Tony Dismukes said:


> That said, I do have some entries into leg locks which are applicable for that context when I'm _already_ entangled with someone and stuck on the bottom. For example, I frequently hit leg locks while in the process of escaping full mount. In that situation, I'm already in a place where it would be difficult to just quickly disengage. Might as well break my opponent's leg on my way out.



Same here, which is why I was curious as to why they're not more widely taught. For example, my favorite leg lock was an ankle lock when my opponent attempts to stand within my guard. I would think something like that would have fairly good self defense value in that particular situation because I can imagine plenty of scenarios where someone is going to attempt to break your guard by standing up.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Video about self defense applications for Leg locks;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What, in all of that, has anything to do with self defence? Personally, I think the real issue is the lack of understanding and insight into exactly what self defence is like… as the set-ups there simply aren't very related to self defence at all… they're all about "fighting"… which is fairly different.

In the end, leg locks aren't looked at much in most self defence approaches as, well, they're of highly limited value.


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## Hanzou (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> What, in all of that, has anything to do with self defence? Personally, I think the real issue is the lack of understanding and insight into exactly what self defence is like… as the set-ups there simply aren't very related to self defence at all… they're all about "fighting"… which is fairly different.
> 
> In the end, leg locks aren't looked at much in most self defence approaches as, well, they're of highly limited value.



So you're saying that there's never a self defense situation where someone is on top attempting to hit you or control you?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

No, I'm saying that the video itself, the situation it's dealing with, and it's concepts aren't self defence, as they're more in the mindset of "fighting". When looking at self defence, one of the primary goals is to look at the lowest risk, highest return methods for the most common eventualities. This game of "but it could happen!" is actually not what is required, or even overly beneficial when it comes to self defence. In this regard, it comes down to starting with HAOV… and, when you look at that, you start to realise that, frankly, this is not an overly "self defence" situation at all. I mean, you can play this game until it becomes "but what if a gorilla escapes from the zoo, and holds your family hostage with a bazooka!"

HAOV first… most common assault patterns and methods… reducing risk… simple, uncomplicated responses… and an emphasis on get up and get away. The type of situation in the video is of two people fighting each other… not one assaulting the other. 

This is the issue with basing a self defence understanding on the technical methods of a sporting context. For one thing, you start to have the idea (that BJJ practitioners often do) that the technique is actually what's important… so they're always looking for the latest, best technique… you also have the situation where the only context that violence is understood is in a match-fight… which brings the assumption that that's what self defence situations look like (they don't). 

So, could it happen? Maybe… but it's unlikely. Frankly, most assaults would be over before this position even came into it.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2016)

For me it is because most of the ones I know I would have to jump off a position where I can hit someone to go for the lock. There are very few that advance position.

The rear naked defence everyone should know and is easy if the guy is dumb enough to try to cross their feet. There is one for the body triangle as well.

I also use a figure 4 leg lock specifically for self defence. If I am the third guy to jump on someone and I m looking for a body part to grab.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2016)

If you are the third guy to jump on someone, it's not self defence.

Seriously. I'm not sure how many times we can tell you that bouncing is not the same thing…


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> If you are the third guy to jump on someone, it's not self defence.
> 
> Seriously. I'm not sure how many times we can tell you that bouncing is not the same thing…



I can be the 20th guy to jump on someone and it could be self defence.

But self defence isn't really anything in terms of martial arts. It is a legal defence to a charge of causing injury or death. So we should know what self defence is in case we are charged with an assault. But otherwise trying to bang on about whether a leg lock is self defence or not is just silly.

It is if it is part of a legal defence to causing injury or death.

So most people yourself included misuse the concept of self defence to apply to a basic martial arts idea Which is fine unless you are lecturing people on some sort of semantic difference to make yourself look better.

So. It is not self defence we use. But defence against assault.
And tied on to that use of force and a few other issues here and there.
There is no real difference between the force used as a security guard and force used by anybody else. Except some liquor licence stuff. Otherwise it the same.

Here is the crimes act for you to read.
CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 418 Self-defence-when available


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## Hanzou (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> *No*, I'm saying that the video itself, the situation it's dealing with, and it's concepts aren't self defense, as they're more in the mindset of "fighting".



Wait, if you agree that there are self defense situations where an assailant can end up on top of you trying to punch you or control you, then the video IS dealing with a possible self defense situation.


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## marques (Jun 22, 2016)

I like leg locks. Just avoiding it now because the/ my position(s) for leg locks doesn't give (me) good alternatives it case it fails... neither for other locks, neither for striking.
Maybe this is a reason it is not used more often.


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## Hanzou (Jun 22, 2016)

marques said:


> I like leg locks. Just avoiding it now because the/ my position(s) for leg locks doesn't give (me) good alternatives it case it fails... neither for other locks, neither for striking.
> Maybe this is a reason it is not used more often.



Check out guys like Ryan Hall, Rousimar Palhares, Eddie Cummings, Gary Tonnen, and several others. There's plenty of transitions from leg locks if they fail.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 22, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Wait, if you agree that there are self defense situations where an assailant can end up on top of you trying to punch you or control you, then the video IS dealing with a possible self defense situation.



True - but the possible self-defense situations where a leg lock is your best option are relatively unlikely. For that reason leg locks are pretty far down the list of techniques I would teach from a pure self-defense standpoint.



marques said:


> I like leg locks. Just avoiding it now because the/ my position(s) for leg locks doesn't give (me) good alternatives it case it fails... neither for other locks, neither for striking.
> Maybe this is a reason it is not used more often.



Leg locks work best when they are part of an integrated system for controlling an opponent where one move naturally leads to another. If you are treating them as individual techniques that don't connect to the rest of your game, they will be much less effective for you.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2016)

Human weapon MCmap did a SD one. I would have said it was a bit ambitious.


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## marques (Jun 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Leg locks work best when they are part of an integrated system for controlling an opponent where one move naturally leads to another. If you are treating them as individual techniques that don't connect to the rest of your game, they will be much less effective for you.


I don't treat them as isolate. Yet, I cannot move to the next naturally... I've been training little to nothing on the ground. It may explain many things. 
After all, I believe other 'positions' are better. At least for less fluent ground fighters that prefer to be in position to strike body and head...


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## Charlemagne (Jun 22, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> If you are the third guy to jump on someone, it's not self defence.



I respectfully disagree.  Also, I bet these guys would disagree, and so would the people who had their lives saved by them. 
Obama thanks train attack heroes


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 22, 2016)

marques said:


> I don't treat them as isolate. Yet, I cannot move to the next naturally


One thing that helps is to recognize and seek out control positions where the opponent's leg is isolated and he can't attack you. Once you reach one of those control positions you have a lot of options for setting up attacks.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One thing that helps is to recognize and seek out control positions where the opponent's leg is isolated and he can't attack you. Once you reach one of those control positions you have a lot of options for setting up attacks.



For SD you generally need an entry and an exit.


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## SenseiHitman (Jun 25, 2016)

I love leg locks and ankle locks as part of my counters to high kicks and the bear hug from behind, in both cases the lock is practically being given to you. In the bear hug I prefer the rolling Japanese knee bar not the drop to the side knee bar shown above but anyway yes I like leg locks when the attacker offers them.  I also like the leg split after a take down and also I like the leg figure four crock screw after the take down since you already have the legs in control.   In some cases, the double leg grapevine can be a handy weapon when being picked up from behind or mounted.   I dont think leg locks are a good weapon for beginners, but I take them every where I go just in case I might need them.


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## Buka (Jun 26, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> True - but the possible self-defense situations where a leg lock is your best option are relatively unlikely.



I agree. But I think that applies to roughly about half of what is taught in every martial arts school on the planet.

P.S. I love leg locks, but I really, really suck at them.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 26, 2016)

Buka said:


> I agree. But I think that applies to roughly about half of what is taught in every martial arts school on the planet.


Agreed to a point.  I would suggest that it varies greatly from one system, and the interpretation of it, to another.  



> P.S. I love leg locks, but I really, really suck at them.


  Same here.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2016)

Buka said:


> I agree. But I think that applies to roughly about half of what is taught in every martial arts school on the planet.
> 
> P.S. I love leg locks, but I really, really suck at them.



Goober rolling into a leg lock on a guy standing has some merit.





As you can hit it from scrambling when they beat you to a stand up and you need something to stop him beating you up as you lay there on the ground.

Standing like the video. Again ambitious.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 27, 2016)

*Like Tony, I like leg locks and practice them regularly.*  However, if I was in that position in a self-defense situation I would probably sweep them instead.  If it is a one on one encounter where grappling is feasible for self-defense then I want dominant position first and foremost.  Yet, having said that doesn't mean I might not heel hook someone. (there are no absolutes)   I probably would not knee bar someone or put myself in any position where my back was turned to my opponent.  That would be a great place for him/her to deploy a knife and I wouldn't see it until it was in my kidney, spine, etc.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 27, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Like Tony, I like leg locks and practice them regularly.*  However, if I was in that position in a self-defense situation I would probably sweep them instead.  If it is a one on one encounter where grappling is feasible for self-defense then I want dominant position first and foremost.  Yet, having said that doesn't mean I might not heel hook someone. (there are no absolutes)   I probably would not knee bar someone or put myself in any position where my back was turned to my opponent.  That would be a great place for him/her to deploy a knife and I wouldn't see it until it was in my kidney, spine, etc.



Agreed with all of that.  I would also add that this is one place where the "too deadly for the ring" comments that people who try to avoid training grappling have a point.  As you noted, there is exposure to a potential weapon, but I would add that you are also exposing yourself to kicks, sometimes in some pretty delicate places.  Sometimes you have to take what you can get, but I do like the idea of a sweep to get a positional advantage, or allow me to get to a weapon if needed, rather than going for a submission that might expose me to other forms of attack.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> As you noted, there is exposure to a potential weapon, but I would add that you are also exposing yourself to kicks, sometimes in some pretty delicate places.


Depends on the control position you are using for the leg lock. Most of my preferred entries and control positions do not allow the opponent to kick you at all.

The knife is a different story. I was doing some practice on Saturday grappling against a knife-wielding partner and passed up some easy leg-lock opportunities because I could tell they would just lead to me getting stabbed. Instead I focused on sweeping and disengaging.


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## Juany118 (Jun 27, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Depends on the control position you are using for the leg lock. Most of my preferred entries and control positions do not allow the opponent to kick you at all.
> 
> The knife is a different story. I was doing some practice on Saturday grappling against a knife-wielding partner and passed up some easy leg-lock opportunities because I could tell they would just lead to me getting stabbed. Instead I focused on sweeping and disengaging.


Hence why I study WC and Inosanto Kali in tandem?  My only question is do I carry a straight blade or karambit? [emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Charlemagne (Jun 27, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Depends on the control position you are using for the leg lock. Most of my preferred entries and control positions do not allow the opponent to kick you at all.


  Agreed.  



> The knife is a different story. I was doing some practice on Saturday grappling against a knife-wielding partner and passed up some easy leg-lock opportunities because I could tell they would just lead to me getting stabbed. Instead I focused on sweeping and disengaging.



Nice.  This seems to be happening more in recent years, and it is good to see.  There are a few guys that I know of doing some good things with weapons grappling in a BJJ paradigm.  For example, Bryan Mossey, who is a Pedro Sauer Black Belt and a Full Instructor under Dan Inosanto.  He is supposed to be coming out with a DVD at some point on the subject.  He talks a little bit about the importance of knowing weapons in your BJJ game here:





And, you can see some of his stuff applied in a commercial he put together here:




 
I look forward to seeing the remainder of his material on this subject.


Craid Douglas "aka Southnarc" is doing some good stuff as well.






Just like there are many things which BJJ can learn from the sportive environment, I think that additional exploration of how weapons change things on the ground will lead to some good fruits going forward.


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## Juany118 (Jun 29, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It may seem unorthodox but one of the reasons I carry a tactical folder is not only utility but weapon retention and defense.  It doesn't happen often but it can be a life saver...

Cop Reaches for Knife in Fight for His Life »


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## Charlemagne (Jun 29, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> It may seem unorthodox but one of the reasons I carry a tactical folder is not only utility but weapon retention and defense.  It doesn't happen often but it can be a life saver...
> 
> Cop Reaches for Knife in Fight for His Life »



Agreed.  I train FMA in addition to BJJ, and deliberately chose to do so, so that jibes with my outlook on life as well.


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## Juany118 (Jun 29, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Agreed.  I train FMA in addition to BJJ, and deliberately chose to do so, so that jibes with my outlook on life as well.


Yeah, I do FMA (Inosanto Kali, so it has a decent amount of grappling and ground fighting too) and WC.  Now I see the weapons in FMA training primarily as learning to defend as I think the best defense comes from also understanding the use BUT to know how to use it if I am forced to is definitely a bonus.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yeah, I do FMA (Inosanto Kali, so it has a decent amount of grappling and ground fighting too) and WC.  Now I see the weapons in FMA training primarily as learning to defend as I think the best defense comes from also understanding the use BUT to know how to use it if I am forced to is definitely a bonus.



I did Lacoste-Inosanto Kali for about a year, and did enjoy the training.  I am now with the Pekiti Tirisia Kali Global Organization.


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## drop bear (Jun 30, 2016)

Leg locks v multiple attackers.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1747309098874385


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Wait, if you agree that there are self defense situations where an assailant can end up on top of you trying to punch you or control you, then the video IS dealing with a possible self defense situation.


The leg lock can be used before your opponent gets on top of you. The successful rate may not be very high but it can be done. These 2 leg lock moves exist in many CMA systems. I have taken someone down before when I was on the ground and my opponent was standing.

Even if you may not be able to get a chance to lock your legs on your opponent's leg because he is moving around you, you can at least use this kind of leg skill (like a side kick to your opponent's knee joint) to keep him away and give you enough time to get back up.


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## Hanzou (Oct 24, 2020)

Stephen Kesting discusses some considerations with the leg lock in a self defense situation.


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## ares34 (Apr 17, 2021)

Leg locks should be part of your system if you want to apply them effectively and how to use them in conjunction with other technics, and trained situations. I would also consider developping serious mobility and escape skills on the ground. Lastly, 1 on 1 is ok, 1 on +1 put us danger for ground situation. Fleeing might be the appropriate option if doable.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2021)

Also the dirty catch style leg locks where you just smash their ankle would be nice to know.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 17, 2021)

There are several single and double leg takedowns and IMO they are practical in sport and many actual combat situations.  The question is what you do after the opponent is on the ground (no matter how he got there).  Leg locks seem hard to achieve without having excellent skills, and even then, I have seen many reversals on MMA when one slips out or rolls over.  This may be OK in sport, but in actual combat, seems a little risky.  For me, a quick stomp, knee drop, strike or twist on the ankle or knee joint (groin, or anywhere else) is more direct and less risky than getting tied up with the guy trying to hurt you.  I would go for the quickest, simplest thing that is available and build off of that.

On the other hand, if I was very proficient in such maneuvers and found myself in good position with a leg in my arms, I might go for a leg lock - don't look a gift horse in the mouth - take what you're given.  But realistically, I would think such ideal situations would be quite rare.


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## dunc (Apr 18, 2021)

There are also a few leg locks that can be used from standing after a takedown that don’t require a lot of entanglement - eg estima lock
From a self defence point of view I think it’s very desirable to have the ability to damage your aggressor’s ankle / knee then disengage


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## ares34 (Apr 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Also the dirty catch style leg locks where you just smash their ankle would be nice to know.


You are right, it is very painful indeed, in our art we smash " fingers above the malleolus with either our shin like certainly what you showed on you picture, or the external edge of our foot, or a shoe (very nasty). Other options are available also)).


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## Sub Zero (Apr 24, 2021)

I think this video has the right idea... go for them when you're already in a bad spot; ie when your on the ground and your opponents standing.  Going for a leg lace into a heel hook is one of the best options in that instance.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There are several single and double leg takedowns and IMO they are practical in sport and many actual combat situations.  The question is what you do after the opponent is on the ground (no matter how he got there).  Leg locks seem hard to achieve without having excellent skills, and even then, I have seen many reversals on MMA when one slips out or rolls over.  This may be OK in sport, but in actual combat, seems a little risky.  For me, a quick stomp, knee drop, strike or twist on the ankle or knee joint (groin, or anywhere else) is more direct and less risky than getting tied up with the guy trying to hurt you.  I would go for the quickest, simplest thing that is available and build off of that.
> 
> On the other hand, if I was very proficient in such maneuvers and found myself in good position with a leg in my arms, I might go for a leg lock - don't look a gift horse in the mouth - take what you're given.  But realistically, I would think such ideal situations would be quite rare.



You see slip outs and roll overs in MMA because of a host of factors beyond the main one being that you're dealing with skilled fighters with sweaty legs and feet instead of an ignorant opponent with a shoe and some pants. If you look at leg locks being slapped on people who have no idea how to counter them you see completely different results. There was one incident where a kid was in a leg lock and decided to squeeze his opponent's leg thinking he was just getting his ankle squeezed. He didn't even realize his foot was being dislocated until it actually happened.

Even among trained fighters, attempting a roll over can have disastrous consequences. See Bj Penn's fight against Ryan Hall where Penn rolled the wrong way and essentially tapped himself out.

It should be noted that leglocks are so nasty that many fighters actively avoid learning them, and fighting people who specialize in them (like Ryan Hall).


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

Sub Zero said:


> I think this video has the right idea... go for them when you're already in a bad spot; ie when your on the ground and your opponents standing.  Going for a leg lace into a heel hook is one of the best options in that instance.



Even if the lock doesn't come off you should create enough space to stand up. 

This is sort of the secret to submissions in mma. If you threaten something they have to address that by countering or escaping. And when they are doing that their ability to hit you drop. 

And these little respite from being bashed by a guy using positional dominance and gravity are really important.


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## Hanzou (Oct 27, 2021)

Found this vid interesting;






Bjj coach Firas Zahabi had to use leg locks to submit this guy because he was so huge and he had a grappling background.


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