# Advanced Wing Chun Structure



## futsaowingchun (May 5, 2021)

In this video I show the basic ways to reinforce the 3  hands in Wing Chun which are Tan, Bong , and Fuk Sao. These structures can be week at times and I show a simple way to makes these structures stronger and  more proficient by borrowing your opponents engery and using it to reinforce yours.


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## wckf92 (May 6, 2021)

Just my opinion but I would think this sort of stuff would go against WC's core idea of not fighting force with force. Why not let the limb flow around the incoming power? 
I look forward to reading other's thoughts on this video.


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## Poppity (May 6, 2021)

Why not just hit him?


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## jobo (May 6, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> In this video I show the basic ways to reinforce the 3  hands in Wing Chun which are Tan, Bong , and Fuk Sao. These structures can be week at times and I show a simple way to makes these structures stronger and  more proficient by borrowing your opponents engery and using it to reinforce yours.


what always strikes me, is they always have a really short skinny stooge to demonstrate on.


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## obi_juan_salami (May 6, 2021)

it's already mentioned but here you are fighting force with force. regardless how strong your 'structure' someone a lot larger and stronger will break through that. if you train to oppose force like that in sticky hands its going to come out in close range fighting and sparring and wont always be in your favor. 

also if you can touch the other persons body why arent you using that gap to hit them? 

its an endless circle of bad habits for you and your training partner if you ask me.


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## Martial D (May 6, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> it's already mentioned but here you are fighting force with force. regardless how strong your 'structure' someone a lot larger and stronger will break through that. if you train to oppose force like that in sticky hands its going to come out in close range fighting and sparring and wont always be in your favor.
> 
> also if you can touch the other persons body why arent you using that gap to hit them?
> 
> its an endless circle of bad habits for you and your training partner if you ask me.


As my sifu used to say; all of wing chun is the punch.
Everything else is just getting there.
This is to hand chasey for me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 6, 2021)

Martial D said:


> As my sifu used to say; all of wing chun is the punch.
> Everything else is just getting there.
> This is to hand chasey for me.





hunschuld said:


> In WC your goal is to drive through the opponent and dump them on the ground. Sweep,throw etc WC is not boxing in the western sense . It is fighting skill and focuses on the standing grappling range . That is why the focus on accepting and manipulating incoming force. You have to be able to throw sweep stomp and at the same time prevent those things from being done to you. People focus on the hands but older WC focused on the legs.


Different WC guys may have different opinions on this.

It makes sense to merge these similar threads into one thread for easier discussion.


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## Martial D (May 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Different WC guys may have different opinions on this.
> 
> It makes sense to merge these similar threads into one thread for easier discussion.


Sweeping and throwing? Yes it's not boxing..
..but it's also not judo


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## Cynik75 (May 7, 2021)

So very very very basic wrestling, bjj (especially no-gi) or any other grappler art is advanced WC. Everyone adept of mentioned learns these techniques/movements in first two months of sparring.


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## hunschuld (May 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Different WC guys may have different opinions on this.
> 
> It makes sense to merge these similar threads into one thread for easier discussion.


Sure they do. I speak only for the Wing Chun that has passed down from Lo Kwai. Even then it is possible someone in our family doesn't agree with me.


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## hunschuld (May 7, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> So very very very basic wrestling, bjj (especially no-gi) or any other grappler art is advanced WC. Everyone adept of mentioned learns these techniques/movements in first two months of sparring.


why are they advanced WC maybe WC is the advanced art. Humans are all the same physically so it only is logical that every art reaches a similar conclusion or end point. The difference comes from who is fighting and experimenting and who is dogmatic and doesnt fight or train against outside people.


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## futsaowingchun (May 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> what always strikes me, is they always have a really short skinny stooge to demonstrate on.


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## futsaowingchun (May 8, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Just my opinion but I would think this sort of stuff would go against WC's core idea of not fighting force with force. Why not let the limb flow around the incoming power?
> I look forward to reading other's thoughts on this video.


Am not really fighting force with force.Am preventing or stopping his force.. My style of Wing Chun is based on Control first then hitting . There methods I use to control..1st is to slow down or stop my opponents physical movements,and that is done by joint control.. Most wing Chunners  use a technique to counter another technique ,but I generally dont do that..I use control which is control over the x and y axis first befor striking or hitting..That way the opponent has no move but you do...This idea of flowing around wont work because id am in control of all your movements you wont be able to lanch an attack.This video is only a small example of this but all my movement work this way.. The 2nd I do alot is move in..most wing chunners dont fight at close range but I prefer to fight at wrestler range to take to his space and control his movements.. I do this by creeping up the joints by controlling them like a snake wrapes his body around his prey then squeezes his victim. This methond is called the snake creeping up the bamboo..


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## geezer (May 9, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> This methond is called the snake creeping up the bamboo..


Check out these variants:







futsaowingchun said:


> Am not really fighting force with force.Am preventing or stopping his force...


Still, although your method uses structure rather than muscular force, it would not work well with the core principles of my lineage in that it opposes force rather than springing and _yielding and using it._ When your are are so firmly braced they cannot flex and move freely.  And if you have succeeded in crossing your opponent's bridge to the point where you can jab him with your fingers, as Snark said. why not just hit him?

Or you could just annoy your opponent by continuing to poke him with your fingers and hope that he doesn't release stick and hit you. I mean, if you are _already touching him_, he may figure you can't hit him as hard as he can hit you with more distance to generate power. This is the reality we sometimes ignore with our chi-sau training.


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## futsaowingchun (May 10, 2021)

geezer said:


> Check out these variants:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is only a small sample of what I do. Am just showing the odd stuff,but I can do also what everother chunner does. If you look at my channel I have 100+ video each one is different depending on what I was developing at the time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2021)

At 0.37 of your clip, your opponent's left Fu Shou is on top of your right Tan Shou. Why don't you rotate your right arm counter-clockwise and use your right hand to grab on his left wrist?

One thing that I don't understand about the WC sticky hand training is the missing of "avoid contact - lead your opponent into the emptiness" principle. One simple example is if I keep my right arm straight up, there is no way that you can get an "under hook" under my right shoulder.

What's your opinion on this?


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## Poppity (May 11, 2021)

Sorry, to elaborate on my previous question.. I am unclear what the purpose of reinforcing the bridge in this manner is? in that I am not sure what the application is or when you would use it.

In the first instance with tan you move to striking range but your objective in your example is not to hit the opponent but to reinforce the bridge, but to what end? Where do you go to next?

In both examples of the tan your opponent is trying to force down your arm at the elbow crease which is never going to work but his positioning aside...

Your opponent at that range can either move his hand closer to your wrist (or  step back) and huen sau your tan out and hit you or instead he could just grab your elbow and give you a push or a yank or as geezer said he can just unstick the bridge and hit you.

I'm sorry to be a pain, but if you could explain how reinforcing the bridge in this manner can be applied I'd be very grateful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> he can just unstick the bridge and hit you.


This is the part of discussion that I'll be interested in.

- How to prevent this from happening?
- How to deal with this when it happen?


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## Nobodaddy (May 11, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Just my opinion but I would think this sort of stuff would go against WC's core idea of not fighting force with force. Why not let the limb flow around the incoming power?
> I look forward to reading other's thoughts on this video.


Agreed. Accept what comes. With that downward feed on the Tan, use Huen Sau. With that forward feed on the Fook, use Jut Sau. And step off the line. Never sit with Bong Sau; it's a transition tecnnique. Too often these "What if...?" questions are answered with trying to make a single technique work regardless of the feed/energy.


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## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

Snark said:


> Why not just hit him?


That is always my method.
Chi sau, without touching.


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## geezer (May 11, 2021)

angelariz said:


> That is always my method.
> Chi sau, without touching.


Hitting is touching!


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## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

geezer said:


> Hitting is touching!


Not with my super chi powers.


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## Poppity (May 11, 2021)

angelariz said:


> That is always my method.
> Chi sau, without touching.


I suppose it depends if you see chi sau as the end goal of of Chi sau or not.

I think for some folk chi sau acts as a transition for hitting without being hit.

This is the first time I've seen the bridge get crossed in chi sau and instead of hitting (yay! Confetti!) there seems to be a consideration of what's really needed is the crossed bridge needs a lot more support. I'm sure there is a reason but i can't see it.


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## Buka (May 11, 2021)

The way I look at it, the gentleman in the video was demonstrating certain points/drills to the other gentleman in the video. I don't think it's a fair question "why not just hit him?" That would be like watching a class do pushups and say "what kind of fighting stance is that?"

I dunno', I haven't got beaten up by a Wing Chun guy lately. Sure did a lot in the past, though.


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## Poppity (May 12, 2021)

Buka said:


> The way I look at it, the gentleman in the video was demonstrating certain points/drills to the other gentleman in the video. I don't think it's a fair question "why not just hit him?" That would be like watching a class do pushups and say "what kind of fighting stance is that?"
> 
> I dunno', I haven't got beaten up by a Wing Chun guy lately. Sure did a lot in the past, though.



I apologise for the initial rather direct questioning and no doubt should have put forward the broader explanation I provided later first.

If you have crossed the bridge in chi sau you can hit them... but the entire point of this drill is not to hit them so I am interested as to where it leads.

So I feel your analogy about push ups is off the mark. It's more if you get the football to your opponents end and the goal is clear why not score.

All I'm asking is if your not hitting him when you have the opportunity because your objective is instead strengthen the bridge what is the applicable skill of this drill where do you go next.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2021)

Snark said:


> what is the applicable skill of this drill where do you go next.


You can take your opponent down.

Should WC cross the boundary of striking art and move into the wrestling art?


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## futsaowingchun (May 12, 2021)

angelariz said:


> That is always my method.
> Chi sau, without touching.


Hitting is easy controlling requires more skill.. Control first then hit otherwise you will trade blows


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## wckf92 (May 12, 2021)

Ok...I'll say it: hitting is a form of control.


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## Callen (May 12, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> Hitting is easy controlling requires more skill.. Control first then hit otherwise you will trade blows


Why seperate the two? Many would say that Wing Chun science is based on _Lin Su Dai Da_, always.

Combining attack and defense together in one action allows you to better take advantage of staple concepts like hands on top, chasing center, taking position, correct timing, etc...

Ultimately there’s no such thing as “Advanced Wing Chun Structure” or advanced Wing Chun in general; only a greater and greater ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the system into a single reaction.


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> So very very very basic wrestling, bjj (especially no-gi) or any other grappler art is advanced WC. Everyone adept of mentioned learns these techniques/movements in first two months of sparring.



Hardly.

Do they teach you how to break bones in basic wrestling after just two months of sparring?  Or to coil and uncoil you body like a dragon?

Do you believe _submission _is the end game of hand to hand combat?


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## damiannc (May 12, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Just my opinion but I would think this sort of stuff would go against WC's core idea of not fighting force with force. Why not let the limb flow around the incoming power?
> I look forward to reading other's thoughts on this video.


Looks like he thinks a Bong sao  is a thing...a static shape. So he uses this thing like a crowbar and a support beam . His rotor cuff would cop a flogging.


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## Cynik75 (May 13, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Hardly.
> 
> Do they teach you how to break bones in basic wrestling after just two months of sparring?



In wrestling no, but in bjj/sambo/judo/CACC yes. 


Oily Dragon said:


> Or to coil and uncoil you body like a dragon?



 I have no idea what do you mean by saying this (maybe because I am not native english speaker). 


Oily Dragon said:


> Do you believe _submission _is the end game of hand to hand combat?


Submission not. But breaking bones, tendon ruptures and choking to unconsciousness - yes. The same as K.Os.


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## Dirty Dog (May 13, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Do they teach you how to break bones in basic wrestling after just two months of sparring?  Or to coil and uncoil you body like a dragon?


I hate to break it to you, but dragons are myth. They don't exist. How can you be taught to move like something that never existed? Or, equally true, any movement of any sort can be called "like a dragon" and you can't prove otherwise.


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## geezer (May 13, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I hate to break it to you, but dragons are myth. They don't exist. How can you be taught to move like something that never existed? Or, equally true, any movement of any sort can be called "like a dragon" and you can't prove otherwise.


Maybe this is why references to snakes and cranes might be better illustrations. At least they do exist!


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## Martial D (May 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the part of discussion that I'll be interested in.
> 
> - How to prevent this from happening?
> - How to deal with this when it happen?


Ideally the 'stick' in the bridge should happen for only a second. Long enough to manipulate an opening to fire a fist through 

Chi sau is extended training to gain a feel for something that should take place in the blink of an eye, but without aliveness in your WC that gets often overlooked.


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Ok...I'll say it: hitting is a form of control.


Yes it is.


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> Hitting is easy controlling requires more skill.. Control first then hit otherwise you will trade blows


Boxing is boxing. Hit and not get hit. Controlling through energy drills is always a good skill to have. However, when you have a life or death situation,  i prefer stick and move, and not get into an attachment.


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

Snark said:


> I suppose it depends if you see chi sau as the end goal of of Chi sau or not.
> 
> I think for some folk chi sau acts as a transition for hitting without being hit.
> 
> This is the first time I've seen the bridge get crossed in chi sau and instead of hitting (yay! Confetti!) there seems to be a consideration of what's really needed is the crossed bridge needs a lot more support. I'm sure there is a reason but i can't see it.


Chi sau to me is clinching to grappling practice.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2021)

angelariz said:


> Chi sau to me is clinching to grappling practice.


- In another thread, I suggest Judo guys should obtain clinching during a striking environment. 
- In most WC thread, I also suggest that WC guys should obtain clinch through sticky hand and move into grappling.

If you think striking art (or grappling art) is only part of the MA training, the striking art and grappling art integration should be the goal, WC sticky hand can be a good tool to achieve your goal.


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## angelariz (May 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - In another thread, I suggest Judo guys should obtain clinching during a striking environment.
> - In most WC thread, I also suggest that WC guys should obtain clinch through sticky hand and move into grappling.
> 
> If you think striking art (or grappling art) is only part of the MA training, the striking art and grappling art integration should be the goal, WC sticky hand can be a good tool to achieve your goal.


Sifu Paul agrees with this method. Which is why all pfs people are supposed to seek coaches and teachers to further delve into the different ranges.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2021)

angelariz said:


> Sifu Paul agrees with this method. Which is why all pfs people are supposed to seek coaches and teachers to further delve into the different ranges.


The interested question is should the task to cross the striking art into the grappling art be the responsibility of a WC instructor, or a grappling instructor who cross trains the WC system?


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## geezer (May 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The interested question is should the task to cross the striking art into the grappling art be the responsibility of a WC instructor, or a grappling instructor who cross trains the WC system?


If an instructor is going to teach how to make the transition from striking to grappling, they need to have some solid knowledge of both arts. If that cross-training knowledge is not very deep, the best thing would be to have experts _in each area_ work together and combine their knowledge. 

In short, the best answer to your question would be "Both!"


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## angelariz (May 23, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The interested question is should the task to cross the striking art into the grappling art be the responsibility of a WC instructor, or a grappling instructor who cross trains the WC system?


I think any instructor worth their salt will explore all ranges and defend common attacks in those ranges.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 24, 2021)

angelariz said:


> I think any instructor worth their salt will explore all ranges and defend common attacks in those ranges.


- What should be the extension of the WC sticky hand? under hook, over hook, head lock, neck choke, bear hug, waist wrap, ...
- How to integrate it into the current WC sticky hand training? Start from single sticky hand, or start from double sticky hands?
- What will you call it? Snake arm sounds a good name.
- Who wants to obtain the credit to produce the first video? Whoever does this will get the credit - help WC to bridge into the grappling art.

IMO, it makes sense to use

- Tan Shou to achieve over hook, head lock.
- Bon Shou to achieve under hook, bear hug, waist wrap.
- Pak Shou to achieve back neck choke.
- Fut Shou to achieve arm control.
- ...


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## angelariz (May 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - What should be the extension of the WC sticky hand? under hook, over hook, head lock, neck choke, bear hug, waist wrap, ...
> - How to integrate it into the current WC sticky hand training? Start from single sticky hand, or start from double sticky hands?
> - What will you call it? Snake arm sounds a good name.
> - Who wants to obtain the credit to produce the first video? Whoever does this will get the credit - help WC to bridge into the grappling art.
> ...


I have been making Chis Sau link to grappling for many years. It doesn't take a system. If you are half way competent in chi sau, grapling transitions are natural. 
Do not look for VC to teach grapling. 
Practice setting up an arm drag to seat belt and your skill sets will fill in the gaps.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 25, 2021)

angelariz said:


> Do not look for VC to teach grapling.


You can learn the grappling skill from the grappling art. But you cannot learn "how to achieve a clinch during a fist flying situation" from the grappling art. Can you learn it through any striking art? Many striking art don't have the sticky hand training (Taiji has similar push hand training).

So WC sticky hand and Taiji push hand are both excellent bridges for this task.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 26, 2021)

angelariz said:


> Practice setting up an arm drag to seat belt and your skill sets will fill in the gaps.


The arm drag can be easily integrated into the WC double sticky hand.


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## angelariz (May 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The arm drag can be easily integrated into the WC double sticky hand.


I've been doing it for 30 years, almost.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2021)

angelariz said:


> I've been doing it for 30 years, almost.


Arm drag can be used to

- switch between front door and side door.
- cause opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm.

It's a very useful skill for striking art also.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2021)

Hope the OP can participate this discussion.


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## geezer (May 28, 2021)

angelariz said:


> I've been doing it for 30 years, almost.


Have you been drilling it out of a _chi-sau_ format? When I wrestled as a youth, I loved the arm drag, but there are some issues applying it in _chi-sau_ from a Wing Chun perspective:

First, in order to execute a classic arm drag by grabbing your opponent's wrist and behind his elbow, you need to break a Wing Chun rule and _use two arms to control one_. Not generally a good idea for a striker. This increases your chance of being hit (unless you've set it up really well) and at the same time prevents you from hitting him.

Secondly, in_ chi sau_, you are already at a striking range. If you can set up an arm drag, controlling position well enough to be able to grab both wrist and elbow without being hit ...then you can almost certainly just _hit him _instead. Seeing as Wing Chun is a striking art, this makes more sense.

Ok, maybe I'm really just saying the same thing twice here ...that a classic, two-handed arm drag is a _grappling move _that sets  you up to take your opponent's back, take him down, and control his body. Wonderful ...but not particularly helpful in a striking oriented drill like _chi-sau._

Now that said, there are some variations on the arm-drag concept that can be integrated into chi sau.

1. The lap-palm or lap punch entry used in the WT system's _first chi sau-section_. Not exactly a classic "arm-drag" since it uses only one hand on each arm, but nevertheless it's a great entry leading to a tight clinch and a sweep/throw finish. Done right, it has a good success rate.

Here's the basic dynamic of this entry demonstrated a long time ago by my old sifu. For the gist of it check out 7:45-8:30:





2. Another way to integrate a more typical wrestler's arm drag would be as a follow up to a simple inward-angled low punch over your opponent's tan-sau. A typical follow-up would be pak-da followed by chain punches. Instead of converting your punch to pak, you could follow up catching your opponent's elbow and going for the arm drag. I've made it work ...but is it worth it?

...Sorry, don't have any video.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> First, in order to execute a classic arm drag by grabbing your opponent's wrist and behind his elbow, you need to break a Wing Chun rule and _use two arms to control one_. Not generally a good idea for a striker. This increases your chance of being hit (unless you've set it up really well) and at the same time prevents you from hitting him.
> 
> Secondly, in_ chi sau_, you are already at a striking range. If you can set up an arm drag, controlling position well enough to be able to grab both wrist and elbow without being hit ...then you can almost certainly just _hit him _instead. Seeing as Wing Chun is a striking art, this makes more sense.


If you use your left hand to pull my right wrist to my left, you will make my body to spin to my left. In order for me to use my left hand to punch you, I need to spin my body to my right. Your left hand pull by itself can prevent my left punch already.

The arm drag is the same as the CMA "switch hands". You use left hand to control my right wrist, when you use your right hand to pull my right elbow, you can free your left hand, you can then use your left hand to strike on my face. So the arm drag is not only used in wrestling art. It's also used in striking art.

For example, I have right side forward. You have left side forward (mirror stance).

1. You use your leading left hand to pull my leading right wrist.
2. You use right hand to pull my right elbow (to free your left hand).
3. Your left hand palm strike on my face.

This 1, 2, 3 "switch hands" can be as fast as 1 move. If you use your left leg to control my leg, you can take me down to. So whether you use arm drag as striking art, or grappling art, it depends on whether you apply your "leg skill" or not.

Also, the issue is whether or not a WC guy want to cross that striking art to grappling art boundary.

Example of switch hands (arm drag) - right hand wrist control, left hand elbow control, right hand strike.

You can see that it's so fast that your opponent doesn't have chance to punch back.


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## geezer (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you use your left hand to pull my right wrist to my left, *you will make my body to spin to my left.* In order for me to use my left hand to punch you, I need to spin my body to my right. *Your left hand pull by itself can prevent my left punch *already.



Yes. This is what I mean by controlling position. The movement demonstrated by Leung Ting in the old video shown above accomplishes this while maintaining control of both arms and_ not committing two hands to one._


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yes. This is what I mean by controlling position. The movement demonstrated by Leung Ting in the old video shown above accomplishes this while maintaining control of both arms and_ not committing two hands to one._


If you can put one hand on your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, you can push his leading arm to jam his back arm. At the same time your other hand can punch to his face. This way, you don't need 2 on 1.

IMO, this move is so important, but it's not part of the WC sticky hand training.

Why?


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## geezer (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Example of switch hands (arm drag) - right hand wrist control, left hand elbow control, right hand strike.
> 
> You can see that it's so fast that your opponent doesn't have chance to punch back.
> 
> View attachment 26840


Breandan Lai's movement above is indeed _fast_ but it is not really a great example for this discussion since:

1. It is not anything like an _arm drag_....
2. It leaves Sifu Lai in a position with_ his center facing away from his opponent_ and with his opponent's _arms uncontrolled_....
3. It depends upon _unequal speed_. Yes it is possible to do two movements as fast as your opponent can do one _...if they are done simultaneously_. Doing several _sequential_ movements faster than your opponent can respond is not such a great idea outside of "demos".

In short, by the standards of Wing Chun, _and_ the standards of wrestling, the sequence _as shown in the gif_ is problematic. Perhaps it would make more sense seen _in context._


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## geezer (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can put one hand on your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, you can push his leading arm to jam his back arm. At the same time your other hand can punch to his face. This way, you don't need 2 on 1.
> 
> IMO, this move is so important, but it's not part of the WC sticky hand training.
> 
> Why?


What you describe* is* trained very early on in our double-arm chi-sau ...that's we we label it _"Section 1"_.

Take another look at what Leung Sifu demonstrates in the old video I posted above. He moves _his left hand_ forward on _his opponent's extended right arm_, he grabs it just behind  the elbow and _pins it to the left_, across his opponent's chest, forcing his opponent to the left and making it momentarily impossible for his opponent to bring either hand into play to strike back.

That is the simplified explanation. Of course there is a lot of finesse required to set this up and apply it against resistance.


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## geezer (May 29, 2021)

BTW, I see the EWTO people have labeled Leung Sifu's movement in the video I provided as _zugangriff. _Basically, I'd call it an _entry-grapple_ ...since I don't speak German or Cantonese. 

It is kind of a "sheung-lap-sau" or double-arm snap. It isn't a _pull_ at all, but a short, sharp, lateral snap using body-pivot power. Your energy must be explosive and springy. In other words....

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that_* spring... *_doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah...

...my apologies to Ella Fitzgerald.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 29, 2021)

geezer said:


> It isn't a _pull_ at all, but a short, sharp, lateral snap using body-pivot power.


You can borrow the counter force of your pulling. This way you can move in faster than you can move in with just your own speed.

If you always move in through the side door (as in the following clip), can the WC double sticky hand training (your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, your left arm deal with his right arm) be needed?

Your thought?


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## geezer (May 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can borrow the counter force of your pulling. This way you can move in faster than you can move in with just your own speed.
> 
> If you always move in through the side door (as in the following clip), can the WC double sticky hand training (your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, your left arm deal with his right arm) be needed?
> 
> Your thought?


Several thoughts.

1. You say: You can borrow the counter-force of your pulling. *Yes*_._ In fact _*you have to* _to get any speed.

2. You advocate entering through the _side door. _*Yes.* ...Or you can do a _split entry_ like Leung Ting did in his video. That also allows you to put pressure across your opponent's body (your left arm pinning his right arm across, or your right pinning his left) and keep him from being able to punch you as you move in close.

3. What you do in your video makes good sense to me, however you are not starting from the closer _chi-sau_ range with each arm contacting one of your opponent's. So the details are different, but _the concept is the same._

4. 1. If that is your driveway, you live in a beautiful, green place. On the other hand I live in Phoenix and  ...._Summer is coming. _


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## geezer (May 30, 2021)

Hey John- We did our usual Sunday training at the park this morning and spent a lot of time playing with arm-drags from Chi-Sau. Good stuff. One thing we discovered was that:

 People with some basic grappling instincts (like me) like to take the back and move in really close to gain body control over our opponent.

Other people like to keep their personal space and work at a striking distance while leaving some space between their body and their opponent's. This can work too for a close-range striking-style like Wing Chun.

The problem, from my perspective, is that the strikers who are not prepared to grapple are more vulnerable. Working in-close, like we do in WC, you may have to grapple whether you want to or not.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 30, 2021)

geezer said:


> 3. What you do in your video makes good sense to me, however you are not starting from the closer _chi-sau_ range with each arm contacting one of your opponent's. So the details are different, but _the concept is the same._


IMO, the arm drag and switch hands are similar, but the starting point are different.

Arm drag - You use your right hand to grab your opponent's *left* wrist, you use your left hand to grab his *left* elbow, you then pull his *left* arm toward your *left* side.

Switch hands - You use your right hand to grab your opponent's *right* wrist, you use your left hand to grab his *right* elbow, you then pull his *right* arm toward your *right* side.

Since arm drag start with your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, it may suit the WC double sticky hand better.

This just lead to another question - Why did the WC double sticky hands start from your right arm to deal with your opponent's left arm? It seems to me that to start from your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm can be as important (if not more important).

What's your though on this?

In this clip, his starts from his right arm deals with his opponent's right arm. He was using "switch hands" without the wrist pulling.


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## geezer (May 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the arm drag and switch hands are similar, but the starting point are different. What's your though on this?
> 
> In this clip, his starts from his right arm deals with his opponent's right arm. He was using "switch hands" without the wrist pulling.
> 
> View attachment 26856In chi-sauI


One thought is that, as you said, "the starting points are different."

In the Bruce Lee clip from_ Enter the Dragon, _Lee and Bob Wall (playing O'hara) are _starting at a *longer*, "semi-detached" range_ with only one hand touching. Lee explodes forward using a left _pak-sau_ to free his right lead which springs forward and pops Wall in the nose. This type of "switch hands" as you call it is basic to WC. I prefer to see it as "freeing the attacking hand to thrust forward" so we can follow our motto _"...lat sau jik chung."_

In _chi-sau_, you are *closer* to your partner, both hands are touching, and_ either hand can hit directly _if freed ...so each hand must control the hand it is in contact with, or else you must use _one hand to control two_ before you try to release your "stick". So, to enter inside with_ a_ left _pak-sau _and right punch, for example, I prefer to step in close with my_ pak-sau_ so that my forearm functions as a _lan-sau_ controlling both my opponent's arms with one of my arms. So... better than just "switch hands", I have control of two with one, freeing the other to strike.

In the video below, go to* 1:05 - 1:18,* slowed to* 0.5 speed* to see something similar to the inside pak-sau attack in chi-sau I described above. Notice how the attacker's forearm acts like a _lan-sau_ to pin and control his opponent's rear arm as he executes his_ pak-da _attack.

Inside Pak-da from Chi-Sau:






Yesterday when I was playing with arm-drags in _chi-sau_, I was very aware of the need to "control two hands with one" ...so we initiated the arm-drag attack much like the inside gate_ pak-da _described above, using  except instead of applying a _pak_, I initiated with a low, left punch, then my left hand moved across (like the _pak-sau_ in the video) and caught my opponent's left arm behind the elbow ...as my right circled and caught his left wrist for an instantaneous "switch hands" trade off (no hanging out in the two arms on-on one position) leading to a quick snap-across arm-drag and enter via the side-gate. Complicated to describe, not so complicated to do.

As above, my left forearm momentarily functioned as a _lan-sau_ pinning and controlling my opponent's left. This gave me the instant of control I needed to safely execute the move at the closer _chi-sau_ range.

The real question is *why? *That is why would you choose to attempt a potentially risky arm-drag rather than the "bread and butter" inside_ pak-da? _This is a question we discussed at training. What we came up with is this. Inside _pak-da_ is a very effective _chi-sau_ attack. Often you can score at least one or two easy hits if you know how to apply it. Then... it can get messy. In sparring you end up trading punches. Sorta like the "milling" done by young British recruits. Great for training aggression, determination, and "grit" in troops. Not so much for skill in _chi-sau_.

Milling:





The advantage of a move like the _modified arm-drag_ described above is that it puts you to the outside and potentially even behind your opponent. Now that's a far better place to be to follow up your initial attack and finish the job _...without just trading punches. _


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## Oily Dragon (May 31, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I hate to break it to you, but dragons are myth. They don't exist. How can you be taught to move like something that never existed? Or, equally true, any movement of any sort can be called "like a dragon" and you can't prove otherwise.



Dragons don't exist?  I beg to differ.





The entire history of human artwork contains dragons, and in particular the Chinese dragons are very specifically defined throughout literature, and especially throughout the Yongchuen Kuen.

The central motif in southern Chinese hand to hand wrestling is undeniably dragon-esque.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2021)

geezer said:


> The real question is *why? *


WC guys (also praying mantis guys) all believe in Pak Shou. They don't like grabbing. 

- Pak Shou is like "glue". It gives you temporary connection.
- Grabbing is like "hook". It gives you much longer connection.

Many years ago, a friend of mine said, "If I can move faster than you, none of your move will work on me." His comment bothered me for a lot time. One day, I realized that if I can put a hook to connect his body and mine, his fast move will pull my body with him, and his speed won't do him any good.

Both arm drag and switch hands can give me that "hook".


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## geezer (Jun 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> WC guys (also praying mantis guys) all believe in Pak Shou. They don't like grabbing.
> 
> - Pak Shou is like "glue". It gives you temporary connection.
> - Grabbing is like "hook". It gives you much longer connection.
> ...


I'm a WC guy who _does_ use "hooks"...they can be very useful, especially when your opponent tries to pull away. You can really stick with him!

BTW, we had another class tonight working at applying and countering arm drags in _chi-sau_ and_ lat-sau_ drills. Interesting results. When your partner resists the arm drag and tries to pull away, the "hook" really helps you move fast and get a great position.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Dragons don't exist?  I beg to differ.
> 
> View attachment 26862
> 
> ...


The history of humanity is filled with lots of mythology. If you actually think dragons are/were real, fine. There are certainly lots of delusional people out there, and that particular delusion seems fairly harmless.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2021)

geezer said:


> countering arm drags ...


Most of the time when your opponent applies arm drag on you, he wants to move behind of you. If you can step in to block/trap his leg and use your arm to push his body, he will fall by your "body squeeze".

Your opponent tries to use circular footwork to move around you. You use straight line footwork to cut in front of him. It's an excellent strategy. Your opponent tries to pull you toward southeast direction. You move toward southwest direction.


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## hunschuld (Jun 3, 2021)

Wing Chun basic rule is go with the pull. What you are showing is basic WC. However I don't think what you are showing is really an arm drag from a wrestling pov. A Russian Tie  or 2 on one would be done to the outside not inside and would be done in such a way as to prevent the step in that you are showing via arm control and stepping tight to the side of the opponent.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> However I don't think what you are showing is really an arm drag from a wrestling pov. A Russian Tie  or 2 on one would be done to the outside not inside and would be done in such a way as to prevent the step in that you are showing via arm control and stepping tight to the side of the opponent.


I'm not sure what A Russian Tie, or 2 on 1 that you are talking about?

The definition of "arm drag" is to use the 1st hand to grab opponent's wrist. You then use the 2nd hand to pull his elbow, and free your 1st hand.

You can use "arm drag" to move from

1. side door into front door - you have to deal with your opponent's other arm. But you are now in your opponent's front door. All your back touch your opponent's chest throws can be applied now.

The counter for this will be different. A bear hug will be a good counter.





2. front door into side door - you can then move into back door if you want to. All your chest touch your opponent's back throws can be applied now.

In this clip, A uses left hand to grab B's right wrist. A then uses right hand to pull B's right elbow, and tries to move toward B's right side door.



View attachment 26867

In this clip, A uses right hand to grab B's left wrist. A then uses left hand to pull B's left elbow, and tries to move toward B's left side door.


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## hunschuld (Jun 4, 2021)

In looking at things from a strict WC POV. Lop Sau= arm drag. Lop's are both inner and outer. The throw you show in the first clip of the three is found in the very first section of the wooden dummy. Strict basic WC  would  lop inside the elbow upper forearm instead of outside the elbow as shown.

 Clip number 2 is a very poor arm drag to use when striking is allowed. perfectly ok when just grappling without strikes. The arm dragger is crossing his center line and his head is wide open and angled for a knockout strike. It is a speed move.ie success relies on speed of the dragger vs reaction time of defender.
 Clip 3 same thing crossing body to drag opposite arm leaves one open for a strike among other things. Also success depends on head position and depth of step. Again speed vs opponents awareness and reaction time. I don't believe in doing moves that leave my head open for a clean strike. good grappling move though.

Now to more wing chun.

Russian tie is a basic move found in freestyle,greco roman and catch wrestling as well as BJJ and Judo although I would guess BJJ incorporated it from wrestling . It is done to the outside so to punch you the opponent has to cross his own body.

In wing chun we have the double lop as geezer showed above( please don't perform it in a way that you destroy your own ACL the way Leung Ting is). The double lop is done with straight arms to prevent the shoulder charge and is either a direct pull into a face plant or you kick out a knee as you drag the arm .

If you fail and you get a lan sau or a shoulder charge you change to a move directly out of most pole forms that is identical to the Russian Tie or the two on one as it is also called. Here you pull the arm tight to you body across your lower chest or abdominal area . Control wrist and elbow. You step deep into the outside shoulder area of your opponent using your dropping body weight to keep control of the arm and keeping him off balance. this leads to 3 lop chop variations including an easy arm break and 2 different throws/sweeps.

In grappling this position leads to various take downs. Also several standing submissions


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## geezer (Jun 4, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> In wing chun we have the double lop as geezer showed above( please don't perform it in a way that you destroy your own ACL the way Leung Ting is)...


Thanks for your concern, Hunter, but I am already quite knowledgeable about destroying my own ACL ...I succeeded in doing that, all by my self, while skiing about 20 some years ago. I've also had some bad breaks and a spiral fracture, not to mention some congenital bone anomalies which make my stance-work less than "textbook perfect". 

On the other hand, I never (yet) have experienced a severe stress to my knee doing the move that Leung Ting is shown demonstrating in that old videoclip. Perhaps the video doesn't accurately show how he is positioning and weighting his legs ... I can't say.

I will say that there are a lot of knee locks and "shin bites" integrated into the Leung Ting chi-sau movements, especially as practiced by the European branches, such as the EWTO. LT would occasionally demonstrate these, but I was also exposed to these by Emin (who has very long, strong, and boney legs). The movements are very effective, but _I will not do them_ as I feel that they are just too risky for _both _partners (attacker and defender). This is backed up by personal experiences from back when I was young and trained "as I was told". Now I try to think for myself, especially where my health is involved.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> A Russian Tie  or 2 on one ...


Since you have mentioned the WC Lop Sau, I think I know what Russian Tie is. In CMA, the

- arm drag is called "Dao Shou - arm drag".
- Russian Tie or 2 on 1 is called "Lou Shou - double pulling hands".

Is this the Russian Tie (2 on 1) at 3.40?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2021)

- At 3.20, should he step in his left foot instead?


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## hunschuld (Jun 4, 2021)

geezer said:


> Thanks for your concern, Hunter, but I am already quite knowledgeable about destroying my own ACL ...I succeeded in doing that, all by my self, while skiing about 20 some years ago. I've also had some bad breaks and a spiral fracture, not to mention some congenital bone anomalies which make my stance-work less than "textbook perfect".
> 
> On the other hand, I never (yet) have experienced a severe stress to my knee doing the move that Leung Ting is shown demonstrating in that old videoclip. Perhaps the video doesn't accurately show how he is positioning and weighting his legs ... I can't say.
> 
> I will say that there are a lot of knee locks and "shin bites" integrated into the Leung Ting chi-sau movements, especially as practiced by the European branches, such as the EWTO. LT would occasionally demonstrate these, but I was also exposed to these by Emin (who has very long, strong, and boney legs). The movements are very effective, but _I will not do them_ as I feel that they are just too risky for _both _partners (attacker and defender). This is backed up by personal experiences from back when I was young and trained "as I was told". Now I try to think for myself, especially where my health is involved.


 I understand I have done more damage to my body myself than any outside force has done although I don't think I can blame myself for my brain tumor but one day the doc's may tell me I caused that too!

My point about LT is that I believe we have a duty to point out problems or issues with anything that anyone teaches so those that follow will be better than we are. Look at 6.38.6.59,7,32., 8.14 he is pulling the person directly into the shift leg at 7.46 and 8.05 he is pulling the person directly into the side of his shifted leg knee and 8.23 he roasts his own chestnuts. If he was working with strangers and not his own line of students something very bad may have occurred. From my POV that is just not the correct way to perform or demonstrate the move


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## hunschuld (Jun 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since you have mentioned the WC Lop Sau, I think I know what Russian Tie is. In CMA, the
> 
> - arm drag is called "Dao Shou - arm drag".
> - Russian Tie or 2 on 1 is called "Lou Shou - double pulling hands".
> ...


yes basically this is it however the front hand should be using the pole grip. Front hand under fingers on top.  wrestlers would be practicing in a different way. This a correct general lop sau position.


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## hunschuld (Jun 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - At 3.20, should he step in his left foot instead?


Yes, I would.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> Look at 6.38.6.59,7,32., 8.14 he is pulling the person directly into the shift leg at 7.46 and 8.05 he is pulling the person directly into the side of his shifted leg knee and 8.23


Does stealing step, or wheeling step that you move yourself outside of your opponent's incoming path commonly used in WC?


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> Yes, I would.





hunschuld said:


> I understand I have done more damage to my body myself than any outside force has done although I don't think I can blame myself for my brain tumor but one day the doc's may tell me I caused that too!
> 
> My point about LT is that I believe we have a duty to point out problems or issues with anything that anyone teaches so those that follow will be better than we are. Look at 6.38.6.59,7,32., 8.14 he is pulling the person directly into the shift leg at 7.46 and 8.05 he is pulling the person directly into the side of his shifted leg knee and 8.23 he roasts his own chestnuts. If he was working with strangers and not his own line of students something very bad may have occurred. From my POV that is just not the correct way to perform or demonstrate the move


Hunter, I see you have looked at this clip with some care. In response, all I can say is that there are a lot of different things happening in this video. And like a lot of LT's demo's it is loose and spontaneous, parts are exaggerated for emphasis, ...even "hammed-up" a little. That's just the way LT explains his stuff.

At some points LT is deliberately altering his footwork, and _eliminating the front step_ to show the use of the turn and rebound energy to power the technique ... and this makes it look like the student is crashing forward into the side of his lead (right) leg. This is not a problem when you step forward (as you normally do) with that leg.

Another thing to consider: In LT's "WT" system, when turned or advancing, the lead leg is unweighted and is kept flexible to use offensively and defensively ....almost like man-sau. You could call it a "man-gherk" strategy.  This allows the led to flex and absorb impact. When he dos the complete movement with the advancing step, I really don't think his ACL is in danger. 

Now as far as his "chestnuts" go ...knowing the man's history regarding women ...there's no way I'm even going there!


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2021)

hunschuld said:


> Yes, I would.


If you use this movement as shown and enter with the left (outside foot) you cannot use the mini-turn and rebound energy being demonstrated (in an exaggerated way) here. Nor can you pierce your opponent's stance (yap-ghurk) attacking and uprooting his center the same way.

Yes, it is _possible_ to attack with the outside leg, but it is an entirely different movement. And not one that capitalizes on LT's concept of "Springy Energy".

Personally, I think this is a case of misconstruing what is really being taught based on an watching an imperfect video. Without _feeling _what is going on, it is easy to focus on the sketchy details.


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## hunschuld (Jun 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Does stealing step, or wheeling step that you move yourself outside of your opponent's incoming path commonly used in WC?


WC doesn't have footwork using those names however all WC I have seen has foot work to move out of incoming path and for getting to the sides or inside angles. If you look at Chum Kiu the footwork is not limited to how it is performed in the form. I can use that foot work to move off the line at 90 degrees forward and backward I can use it to go forward 45 degrees or back on an angle. Moving on from Chum Kiu.
The dummy has even more  footwork to move outside and the Pole and Knives even more. Third form teaches the circle step which can be used  as moving off the center and then cutting into the center from the side.

The issue with wing chun footwork is  receiving energy and then how one performs swallow, float,sink ,spit. If someone cant recieve well then they will have footwork limitations  keeping things simple which is not necessarily a bad thing.


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