# Painful Trainers



## tellner (Mar 7, 2009)

Guru Plinck has decided that our Silat is good enough that we can start learning to use it with knives. But a couple months of constant knife work has me scratching my head about practice knives. The class has pretty much settled on soft silicone rubber spatulas. Even with that I've got persistent scars on my forearms and go home with deep bruises after every class. 

I can't see how people do reasonably hard practice with wood, rigid platic or gods-have-mercy square cross-section metal ones. It would mean a lot of broken bones and plenty of blood.


----------



## Brian King (Mar 7, 2009)

*Tellner wrote:*



> "I can't see how people do reasonably hard practice with wood, rigid platic or gods-have-mercy square cross-section metal ones. It would mean a lot of broken bones and plenty of blood."


 
This has not been our experience except perhaps with the more stubborn and the more tense of the students and the honesty of the attacks and the repeated pain teaches honest movement. The hard part of the training is to keep the movement/response honest and real without reinforcing fear. If the movement/response becomes fear based it is doing harm on many levels to the student and should be corrected right away. Soft training blades have a use in training but also have their drawbacks but I am sure Guru Plinck will correct those LOL.

Have you ever trained with scratch sticks?

Please send my regards to Guru Plinck, I enjoyed the training offered.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## arnisador (Mar 7, 2009)

You can get soft foam ones, of course. I find the wood isn't so bad. Hard plastic can be worse!


----------



## Sandstorm (Mar 7, 2009)

We use softwood and MDF trainers. I make the MDF ones myself as the training Karambits are aluminium. MDF is much softer and although, obviously, it marks the skin, it's rare for bruising to occur. 
I hate the plastic and rubber trainers.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 7, 2009)

What's MDF?


----------



## Sandstorm (Mar 7, 2009)

arnisador said:


> What's MDF?


 
Medium Density Fibreboard. I'll find you a link


----------



## Sandstorm (Mar 7, 2009)

http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm

Not sure if you have similar where you are, but I would assume you do. Just make sure it's sealed properly for training.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks!


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 7, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm
> 
> Not sure if you have similar where you are, but I would assume you do. Just make sure it's sealed properly for training.


It's very important to seal it well for training.  MDF is sort of like very dense cardboard, so liquids (like sweat) will penetrate it.  Because it's basically sawdust/wood fibers glued & pressed together into a new "board" -- the dust isn't really good to breath a lot of, either.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 7, 2009)

for a great low-budget training knife, i used to use stir sticks like you get at a paint store, then we'd wear a long sleeve jacket.  it worked really well for what we were doing; if you broke your stick on the other guy, it was probably a good stab or slash.  we couldn't really go to the face or throat with them, but it worked pretty well & made for some good training.

jf


----------



## searcher (Mar 8, 2009)

http://www.shocknife.com/

This is the one you need.


----------



## tellner (Mar 8, 2009)

Dunno about the shocknife. It's expensive. It looks fragile. And we're already getting enough feedback in the form of cuts and bruises.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 9, 2009)

For our Bowie work, I "custom" make our sparring trainers from 1/4" oak then line the edges with a generous amount of foam polly packing material (the stuff that computer servers get shipped in, similar to a higher grade of the stuff that Pool Noodles are made from).

That way it's rigid enough to parry and block on the flat, or do a leverage disarm if you can manage the catch, but won't hit hard enough to break bones (well, maybe bust a finger if you're unlucky). We get bruises a fair amount though. Fensing (or similar) goves, forarm bracers if you want, face and throat protection (such as a fensing mask), and you're good to go.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## tjp (Mar 18, 2009)

Have you looked into Nok trainers? They seem to be good for contact training.

Tony


----------



## tellner (Mar 18, 2009)

Never heard of Noks. I'll check them out.


----------



## Franc0 (Mar 19, 2009)

tjp said:


> Have you looked into Nok trainers? They seem to be good for contact training.
> 
> Tony


 +1 on the NOK trainers. IMO the best hard contact trainers out there.

Franco


----------



## Skpotamus (Mar 21, 2009)

I've had good luck with "boffers" that Ray Floro uses. Basically a length of PVC pipe with a piece pool fun noodle glued on one end, with the end plugged with another piece of fun noodle. Tape it up loosely and you can go pretty hard with them without hurting anyone too bad. Hard thrusts that land on the ribs and torso will knock a bit of wind out of you and a hard jab to the face can blacken an eye, but it's not bad at all, and if you wear some head gear (hockey helmets work great) then it just jerks your head around. Giving you good feedback, without injury. 

http://www.rayfloro.com/?paged=3

Marc Denny (Dog Bros) wrote on another forum that they use the shock knife in their pack gatherings, so it's apparantly pretty sturdy, but pricey.  There was a vid floating around youtube of a "knife" vs stick fight using one.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 21, 2009)

I use multiple combination's of different trainer's.  Aluminum, wood, rubber, action-flex, Nok, etc.  All have different characteristics and uses in training.  Personally I love the aluminum trainers but I would not want to spar with them.  :erg:


----------



## Skpotamus (Mar 22, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I use multiple combination's of different trainer's. Aluminum, wood, rubber, action-flex, Nok, etc. All have different characteristics and uses in training. Personally I love the aluminum trainers but I would not want to spar with them. :erg:


 

What I've found is that the harder trainers make people change their targets a bit.  When we were sparring with harder trainers and no headgear, you didn't see much in the way of head strikes.  Put on the hockey helmets and use boffers and it became one of the most common targets.


----------



## Zombievt (Mar 30, 2009)

tjp said:


> Have you looked into Nok trainers? They seem to be good for contact training.
> 
> Tony


 
Another +1 for the Nok Trainers. We used them in an AMOK! seminar I attended last July.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 30, 2009)

i was thinking about something regarding training knives that inflict pain.  most of the LEOs & stabbing victims i've spoken with (admittedly not all that many) have stated that they didn't know they were cut or stabbed until they saw the wound or it was all over.  so while training without pain may not teach you to be aware of the blade, it may be more realistic; i.e., you have to follow through, you could learn to keep going even after a hit, etc.  

just a thought,

jf


----------



## lklawson (Mar 30, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> Marc Denny (Dog Bros) wrote on another forum that they use the shock knife in their pack gatherings, so it's apparantly pretty sturdy, but pricey.


A friend bought a pair of shock knives.  I like the idea and they were great to use but they kept breaking.

Maybe he got a lemon pair.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 30, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i was thinking about something regarding training knives that inflict pain.  most of the LEOs & stabbing victims i've spoken with (admittedly not all that many) have stated that they didn't know they were cut or stabbed until they saw the wound or it was all over.  so while training without pain may not teach you to be aware of the blade, it may be more realistic; i.e., you have to follow through, you could learn to keep going even after a hit, etc.
> 
> just a thought,
> 
> jf


Generally, the reason a victim doesn't know they've been stabbed/cut is a combination of adrenaline and shock.  Most victims know they've been hit or contacted somehow.

A trainer that inflicts some pain is a good tool to let you know you made a mistake -- and to generate some adrenaline/fear response.


----------

