# Weapons anyone?



## Taiji fan (Nov 7, 2002)

just a quick question...

what weapons are you taiji people working with......and do you have a preference?


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## lvwhitebir (Nov 7, 2002)

I've worked with the Straight Sword and I'm currently working on the Fan.  My favorite, of course, is the sword.

WhiteBirch


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## Taiji fan (Nov 7, 2002)

What style of fan and sword do you work with........why is sword your favourite!


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## TkdWarrior (Nov 7, 2002)

i like Taiji broadsword... why dunno? i just feel like it belongs to me 
-TkdWarrior-


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## chufeng (Nov 7, 2002)

I have a question for those who use weapons...
Why?
What do you get out of it?
Do you really think you'll ever use a bladed weapon in actual combat?

Personally, I train with Staff, Broadsword, Spear, and Straight Sword...I have my reasons, but I am curious as to why others train with weapons.

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Nov 7, 2002)

In Tai Chi I've always heard it as for strength (sword, staff, etc., not fan)--basically, the Tai Chi version of weightlifting.


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## lvwhitebir (Nov 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _
> 
> *What style of fan and sword do you work with........why is sword your favourite!  *



I do Yang style.  The fan is more of a combined set, I think, not so traditional.  But it's still interesting.  The sword is probably my favorite for two reasons, one was because it was my first TC weapon, and the second is because it's more "manly" than the fan.  I probably look silly doing the fan form.

WhiteBirch


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## lvwhitebir (Nov 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *I have a question for those who use weapons...
> Why?
> ...



I don't train with weapons for combat in TC.  The same with my Kung Fu.  It's just a different aspect of training that gives me additional insight.  It's funny to see people that have worked out for years doing empty-hand forms just learning their first weapon.  It's not as easy as you might think.

The progression at my school teaches the empty-hand form, standing Chi Kung, straight sword, then the two-person set.  It gives you something to keep you growing.

WhiteBirch


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## Taiji fan (Nov 8, 2002)

> I have a question for those who use weapons...Why?
> What do you get out of it? Do you really think you'll ever use a bladed weapon in actual combat?



good question....I train in weapons for the skill level involved in working with a weapon, its a challenge to give the appearance of complete control no longer just of your body but to deal with the extra appendage (as in sword) and to control the structure and body requirments with the weapon....other than that its just cool.  Would I be using a bladed weapon in combat...not this life time, maybe I am just hanging onto a past one :samurai: 



> The sword is probably my favorite for two reasons, one was because it was my first TC weapon, and the second is because it's more "manly" than the fan. I probably look silly doing the fan form.


 Sword was my first weapon too and although it is probably still my favourite, I like working with fan.  I like the staccato effect, cracking it open like a gun shot and then its closed before you realise what it you......the fan is a nice concealed weapon, you are delicately cooling yourself down and the next minute bang, its a formidable weapon....... I bet you don't look silly doing fan at all, I know plenty blokes who study fan and they all look 'fan' tastic   pardon the pun!


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## chufeng (Nov 8, 2002)

OK,

One said it shows control...
Another said it gives "insight" into the art...

Do any of you apply the lessons of the sword to empty hands?
Does the "extra appendage" translate into potential lines of force without the weapon?

:asian:
chufeng


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## Taiji fan (Nov 9, 2002)

> Do any of you apply the lessons of the sword to empty hands?


 the other way round, the sword is an extension of the barehand practice it has to keep exactly the same principles...


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## theneuhauser (Nov 9, 2002)

ive only practiced with straight sword, spear and short stick from the taiji system. my teacher focused on chen and explained that the weapons allow you to direct energy through specific points, such as the tip of the jian. 
all of the other weapons ive studied were from a hard approach and we generally saw them as balance and coordination aids. im sure this also applies to the soft technique as well.


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## Taiji fan (Nov 10, 2002)

> my teacher focused on chen and explained that the weapons allow you to direct energy through specific points, such as the tip of the jian.


 directing energy?  I am concerntrating on the presiscion of the weapon...getting it and my body in the right place at the right time......there is so much talk of 'directing the energy' in taijiquan that people create all sorts of weird an wonderful ideas opn this....like one guy I knew used to contract one side of his anus in a bid to control and move his energy....I thought it was more likely he was talking out of his anus....what taijiquan students need to understand is that the energy (and I hate that term almost as much as Qi as they have both been responsible for bringing about the new age tai cheeee stuff) is activated when you body is lined up correctly and your timing is correct and your spirit is engaged.  You don't have to visualise it moving or ...send energy anywhere correct practise does that for you.


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## chufeng (Nov 10, 2002)

TaiJiFan,

Consider, for a moment, the possibility of the weapon showing you HOW to use your empty hand...

You are correct in stating that the principles of empty hand apply to the sword, with one exception...the sword creates its own force...How do we extend THAT idea to the empty hand???

Yes, it is a matter of control...
Yes, it is a matter of Yi (a very big component in both empty hand and weapons training)...

Does one strike with a knife hand? or, does one cut with a knife hand?
Does one strike with an immortal hand? or, does one pierce and thrust through the target with that open hand weapon?
Does the staff teach us anything about body position and throws? or, are we just pummeling the opponent?

Yi...
Body position...
Root...

These are some of the lessons the weapons teach...

Comments?

:asian:
chufeng


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## Taiji fan (Nov 10, 2002)

an interesting discussion.......let me do my best to answer your questions....although I am no 100% sure of what you are asking...





> Consider, for a moment, the possibility of the weapon showing you HOW to use your empty hand...


 I am going to base my answers based on Jian as that is the weapon I am most experienced in....and the Yang Shi form for the same reason.  In the Jian form there are many similarities to the barehand form in movements....for example..seize the moon with three rings, first part is very close to brush and push from teh barehand form.  In this both the sword and sword fingers carry the same movement as found in barehand.  The principles and body requirments are identical there is no distortion of any of the joints, a bow step is still a bow step and so on.  Moving to the second part of seize the moon, the sword crosses over the arm and strikes forward in a semi circle movement as the sword fingers also semi circle back towards the body.....again in barehand this movement is found in as high pat on horse prepares for the kicks etc.  again the emphasis in each movement is the same, it hasn't become something different because a sword is involved......incidently in both of these moves we are using the handle or the sword, when we get on to using the sharp end  we must be precise and know exactly which part of the blade we are using and for what purpose. Are we slicing, thrusting,pushing the blade etc.....and to what part of teh opponants body...We line up the body the same way,  with most of the movemnts based on rotations, I know what my barehand applications are ....I don't see how sword can 'show me how to use my empty hand'.....my teacher is very precise in her instruction of barehand so although I appreciate the similarities between certain movements I don't use sword to train my barehand form, but instead I use my understanding of barehand to train my sword form.



> the sword creates its own force...How do we extend THAT idea to the empty hand???


 why do we need to? barehand also creates its own force. 



> Does the staff teach us anything about body position and throws? or, are we just pummeling the opponent?


 I have had only limited time with staff so I couldn't comment.





> Yi...body position...root........These are some of the lessons the weapons teach...


 agreed, which are the same as in barehand.

I hope that makes sense.....


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## theneuhauser (Nov 10, 2002)

thought provoking, chufeng. 

a tool for self discovery.


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## East Winds (Nov 10, 2002)

Chufeng,

Interesting reasoning - but a bit flawed??

CONSIDER FOR A MOMENT, THE POSSIBILITY OF THE WEAPON SHOWING YOU HOW TO USE YOUR EMPTY HAND...

The above implies that you could start sword training before you had a complete understanding of barehand. In which case you might make a passable immitation of the movements of sword form, but you would certainly have no understanding of what you were doing! Until you can direct the intrinsic energy of taiji to the hands, you will have no ability to direct chin outwards through the sword blade.

"THE SWORD CREATES ITS OWN FORCE" - Sorry it dosn't!! The use of the word force is in itself an unfortunate choice as it implies hack and slash. It is the Yi which directs the body movement to transmit the chin to the blade "Sword is not for the warrior" as the quote goes. The sword has a very subtle and abstruse nature. Its use is as delicate as embroidering with the finest silk. Sabre is darning socks!!

The knife hand symetrically balances chi circulation so that chin can enter the sword. It is also used for cavity press during combat and not for striking per se.

If I have misunderstood your meaning I apologise. Incidentally which sword form do you practise?

Regards


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## chufeng (Nov 10, 2002)

No, I did not imply one could start the sword before empty hands.
You inferred that...

Weapons training should only be started after the student has a rudimentary idea of HOW to move in space...

After some empty hands training, the student may begin weapons training...AND, initially, the lessons of the sword will not be apparent to the novice...as someone said earlier, it teaches coordination (sort of an extension of the hand)...in time, however, it becomes the hand...and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword...

I do not discount Yi...I do not discount body action...
Certainly, the weapon is more effective when those are employed...BUT, the weapon does create its own force...if you doubt that, stand in front of a novice and let him thrust at you with a straight sword...

I practice YiLi Tai Dao...YiLi Jien...YiLi Chiang...as well as the staff sets from the YiLiQuan system...are these T'ai Ji??? Yes and No...

Our system is derived from the three classical internal systems and from the Shaolin system known as PaiXingQuan...

Thank you for your comments

:asian:
chufeng


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## Taiji fan (Nov 10, 2002)

> Weapons training should only be started after the student has a rudimentary idea of HOW to move in space


 a rudimentary idea?  Myabe this is where I am struggling with your concepts of 'and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword...'  This suggests only a basic understanding of how to move.  I have not trained like this.  I have spent the most time aiming to understanding the body requirments for my art....in barehand before getting to grips with the sword.




> the weapon does create its own force...if you doubt that, stand in front of a novice and let him thrust at you with a straight sword...


 and what does that show? I guess if you drop a sword and it lands on your foot it will hurt, is that what you mean by creating its own force.....I am not trying to be awkward here I am just trying to understand you.

The weapons 'force' is commanded by the requirments for the body the 10 essences, principles call them what you will.



> are these T'ai Ji??? Yes and No...


 why yes and why no?


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## chufeng (Nov 10, 2002)

I stated:

"...in time, however, it becomes the hand...and your empty hand techniques reflect the lesson of the sword..."

Notice the "in time" part...it won't happen over night...just as learning how to use T'aiJi for combat does not occur over night.

The point of the sword is the business end for the majority of the techniques...yes, you can use the 'round" blade and the pommel as weapons, too, but for the most part, the focus is on the tip.
Delivering the tip of the blade to the target requires control...it does not require a great deal of force, though...once it arrives at the target, it must have a solid base behind it to penetrate deeply (this is referring to a thrust)...if cutting vital spots with the tip of the blade, power is developed in a strong action in the wrist...this then is transferred to the tip...having a strong grip on the blade allows you to control it through the target...but again, the blade does the work...the blade amplifies the initial force.
Can you hold a blade still and cut with the action of the waist? Yes, but it is certainly a more difficult cut to master. In any of the above techniques, if the blade angle is off, you may be totally ineffective (and may damage your blade)...so you are controlling the action in more than one plane.

When defending against an incoming attack, force is not met with force...it is redirected...(easy enough to imagine but even easier if I were to show you what I mean)...

How does the blade amplify power?  Centrifugal force for a cut and bringing the force to a single point (at least initially) for a thrust...
The blade is able to do this because it is, in essence, rigid...it maintains its integrity throughout the action of a cut or a thrust...

Can you see how any of this might apply to empty hands?
Certainly it is easy to see that a punch would be ineffective if the person executing the technique allowed his wrist and elbow to buckle on impact...now, I am not suggesting that your punch be rigid, per se, but rather that it is properly alligned so that the integrity of the technique remains unbroken from the heel through the target...

Likewise, when using a knife hand technique, you can employ the concept of maintaining a cutting edge from the shoulder through the tip of the pinky...use the waist as you use the wrist in cutting...and follow through the target, don't stop on a given point...cut through it. Doing this with strong Yi and focus really improves the power of your knife hand...

Just some thoughts...

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (Nov 10, 2002)

Why yes and why no?

YiLiQuan uses many of the principles of T'aiJiQuan but combines them with principles/strategies from BaGua and XingYi...

We include in out training Yang's short form and a form derived from the Combined (five families) TaiJi set...

We do not modify the Yang set...but the combined set includes some of the strategic stepping actions of YiLi...so many of the angles are different...

That's how yes and how no...similar, but different.

:asian:
chufeng


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## theneuhauser (Nov 10, 2002)

blue belt chufeng !

training soft styles is the next best thing to learning physics!
y'all agree?


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## Taiji fan (Nov 11, 2002)

I can see some points where we differ in our techniques and training, so it is interesting to talk to someone who has come from a differnt style.



> The point of the sword is the business end for the majority of the techniques.


 I guess this is a main difference in Yang Shi we use the entire sword in fact there are only a small number of moves using the tip of the sword.



> having a strong grip on the blade allows you to control it through the target...but again, the blade does the work...the blade amplifies the initial force.


 we do not work with a fixed grip we have a variety of grip changes for different movemnts for example in a thrust the guard is controlled by the thumb and forefinger on the wings of the guard.....slicing horizonatally from right to left the fingers are open with the thumb and the forefinger 'around' the guard. 



> power is developed in a strong action in the wrist


 interesting.....we are trained in power is developed from rotations in the body, primarily noticeable in the waist and forearms.  In taijiquan the wrist does not work independently.  The power in the rotation of teh forearm  comes from maintaining the alignment through the wrist and sinking elbows and shoulders, this creates the spiraling energy that will cause the energy to move along the blade.



> Can you hold a blade still and cut with the action of the waist? Yes, but it is certainly a more difficult cut to master.


 thid is the entire basis for our art, no waist no taijiquan.



> When defending against an incoming attack, force is not met with force...it is redirected...(easy enough to imagine but even easier if I were to show you what I mean)...


 again a fundamental part of taijiquan, 



> Can you see how any of this might apply to empty hands? Certainly it is easy to see that a punch would be ineffective if the person executing the technique allowed his wrist and elbow to buckle on impact...now, I am not suggesting that your punch be rigid, per se, but rather that it is properly alligned so that the integrity of the technique remains unbroken from the heel through the target...


 mmnn I find this rather strange, in barehand we are already working this way before picking up a sword, the sword doesn't teach us how to enhance our barehand, we learn the boimechanics of technique teh exe cutino of technique, the body requirments/ essences, before picking up sword.  To be honest I think we are both talking about the same thing but from a slightly different perspective.



> We include in out training Yang's short form


 Yangs short form?  There is no Yang short form...are you talking about 37 step, 24 step or what ?
Yang taijiquan is not a strictly linear style it has movements to all angles.

respectfully


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## chufeng (Nov 11, 2002)

Yang's 24 step form (the shortest set, hence my term Yang's Short Form)...

TaiJiFan, have you ever actually sparred with your straight sword?

:asian:
chufeng


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## East Winds (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> [We include in out training Yang's short form and a form derived from the Combined (five families) TaiJi set...
> 
> ...



Chufeng,

The 24 step simplified form is not Yang style Taiji. It is what it says it is "Simplified" taiji based on Yang style. Formulated by a committee after the cultural revolution, it contains none of the complexities of Tradional Yang Family Tajiquan. Also, by the "combined" set, do you mean the 48 posture competition form? Would I be correct in assuming on that basis that Yiliquan is a modern hybrid system? 

So which sword form to you follow. Is this also a hybrid form? I'm not knocking Yiliquan, I just don't know enough about it to do that., but I need to know where you are coming from. Quite simply our sword forms appear to have little in common. We use all parts of the swrod and our grip is always relaxed in order to adjust swiftly according to the technique being employed. Sword form is a matter of skill,precision and speed. The attack is always angular, never going in a straight line. The blade is doing all the work, but the ENTIRE BODY is used to create the energy. These are only a few of the very basic principles in Yang sword. We would not let anyone near weapons until they had a very sound grounding in barehand form. Weapons are an extension of barehand, not the other way about! 

Can you recommend a website so that I may learn more about Yiliquan?

Yiliquan sounds interesting, can you give a brief resume of its lineage?

Very best wishes


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## Taiji fan (Nov 11, 2002)

East Winds....looks like we are working on the same principles.  I have spent some time studying simplified 24 step and I started off with Cheng Man Chings 37 step (although it was taught in the manner of yang style rather than the manner of Cheng Man Ching).  I could not believe how little the 24 step resembled the tradtional form and assumed I had just been badly taught in the first place.  Much of the major body requirments are missing in simplified....



> TaiJiFan, have you ever actually sparred with your straight sword?


 Chufeng....I have played with the applications and sword exercises, both individually and in partner exercise.......do I spar as in free style?  No, I am still developing the basic principles of understanding the complexities of sword and making sure that my body requirements are correct.


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## chufeng (Nov 11, 2002)

East Wind,

If you go the "Schools" forum, we have a link to our webBoard and to an article on YiLiQuan...and yes, it is a hybrid system.

Interesting point about the 'simplified" version...I didn't know that the principles were different in the 24 step form and Yang's other forms...Why would someone pass on something "wrong?"
Or is it just not as in depth?

At any rate, we use it for beginners to TaiJiQuan, the combined set is taught at a more advanced level in our system...

Our sword sets are derived from BaiXingQuan, an old Shaolin based system. We use the entire blade (and blade guard and pommel), but focus on the tip for cutting. 

This is an interesting exchange, Thanks.

:asian:
chufeng


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## East Winds (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> Interesting point about the 'simplified" version...I didn't know that the principles were different in the 24 step form and Yang's other forms...Why would someone pass on something "wrong?"
> Or is it just not as in depth?
> ...



Chufeng,

Thanks for the information. I found your website very interesting.

The 24 step form is not "wrong". It was developed by the Chinese Government after the cultural revolution as a way of providing a Taiji form which would keep the population fit and healthy and which could be learned quickly and performed in a short time and in a small space. (Master Li De Yin  was one of the committee who formulated this form). Most of the forms up till that time had been Family long forms. (some of which had gone underground during Mao's reign) You are correct in assuming it  does not have the depth of the traditional Yang form. That said, it is a very useful introduction to Taiji and I teach it myself particularly to older people who do not wish to learn either the long form or the martial aspects of taiji. Although that is not to say that 24 step could not be used for martial purposes and as an aid to explaining the correct postures, I usually demonstrate some of the applications.

I think we are saying basically the same thing about sword, but in our own special way! 

I have enjoyed this exchange and it is always enlightening to find out about another new (at least to me) system.

Very best wishes


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## Taiji fan (Nov 12, 2002)

theneuhauser said 





> training soft styles is the next best thing to learning physics!


 :erg: mind boggling!!  I prefere biology myself!!!:boing1: 





> Interesting point about the 'simplified" version...I didn't know that the principles were different in the 24 step form and Yang's other forms...Why would someone pass on something "wrong?"


 I would have to say that some of the moves (compared to trad. Yang) are blatently wrong, but perhaps also due to the way I was taught.  But that does not mean that you cannot practise simplified form in the maner of Traditional Yang.......it takes critical analysis of the mechanics of the application to see where the main embellishments are......the roll back on the grasp sparrows tail section is a big one


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## East Winds (Nov 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _
> But that does not mean that you cannot practise simplified form in the maner of Traditional Yang.......it takes critical analysis of the mechanics of the application to see where the main embellishments are......the roll back on the grasp sparrows tail section is a big one [/B]



Taiji Fan

You are absolutely correct. Master Christopher Pei (a 5th generation Yang lineage holder) of the US Wushu Academy performs 24 step in the way of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan on his video "A Piece of Cake".  If you have the chance to see this, it is superb!

Regards


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## CraneSpreadWings (Nov 18, 2002)

the barehand style i play is the Chen Pan Ling form. In my school we also practice a shaolin staff...I like this because it builds strength, structural integrity, spacial awareness (growing the nervous system), and an understandng maybe of how circles work...I have been studying with my Sifu for almost 2.5 years and we are going to start studying the Yang style Broadsword form this winter...the 'Higher Philosophies' as Sifu calls it...  As I understand it, traditionally in the Yang Shr, the Jian was not taught until around ten years of barehand experience and possibly a fan form or spear...I feel okay studying the broadsword(100 day sword), but I plan to wait a pretty long while before starting the Jian...they sure are beautiful swords if you got an authentic old one in your hands though


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## Taiji fan (Nov 18, 2002)

> In my school we also practice a shaolin staff...I like this because it builds strength, structural integrity, spacial awareness (growing the nervous system), and an understandng maybe of how circles work.


 tell me more about your staff form....what kind of staff is it a long one or a short (ish one)  etc.  I learned a little monkey staff and it was pretty good fun.  Staff doesn't really suit me though......I prefer a sword!! 



> we are going to start studying the Yang style Broadsword form this winter


 mmnnn interesting Yang Shi doesn't have a broad sword form.....there is a sabre form but the sabre is quite a different weapon to the broadsword.



> I plan to wait a pretty long while before starting the Jian...they sure are beautiful swords if you got an authentic old one in your hands though


 finding a good sword is not easy though, I am still looking for the one that really suits me.

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Nov 18, 2002)

Chinese broadsword = da dao

Chinese saber/sabre = da dao

Same weapon, different terms.  Like calling a staff a cudgel.

Gambarimasu.


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## East Winds (Nov 18, 2002)

Yiliquan1,

Not quite. The Yang Family use the Southern Broadsword which is based on the typical army type sabre. This has a long thin blade which has no broadening at the tip so common in what we think of as the broadsword. It also has a large 1.5" ring at the end of the pommel. (Used in some of the applications). It is the same breadth all along its length but with a slight turn up at the tip. There is no requirement to have it broader at the tip as the requirements of use are different. There is no need to have a bone breaking ability as with the typical broadsword. (Hence the broadening at the tip to provide strength to the blade). The Yang Sabre form has only 13 postures (Yang Shi Taji Dao Shi San Shi) and is not the hack and slash that we can see in so many other sabre/broadsword forms.

Very best wishes


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## Matt Stone (Nov 18, 2002)

Wow.

Thanks.  Wasn't aware of a specific difference.  I have seen the "souther broadsword" offered for sale on different websites, as well as a "tai chi broadsword" with the thin blade you are describing, but thought they were just rarities...

Ya learn somethin' new every day, huh?

Gambarimasu.


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## Taiji fan (Nov 18, 2002)

I had also heard that the sabre was pratically unknown with Yang varitions that had come via Hong Kong and they practise a 'Yang style' broadsword form, perhaps Tung's form?


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## East Winds (Nov 26, 2002)

Interesting point Taji fan. Tung Ying-chieh was a student of Yang Cheng-fu for some 20 years. He developed his own form of Taijiquan (although still based on Yang form) and Tung's sabre form is different from the Yang form  taught today. For instance the postural requirements are different and there is a "stabbing stamp" that is not present in the Yang form. Interestingly, he also introduced a "fast form" of taijiquan. Not just the original form speeded up, but a short, explosive, fast form.

Anyone else practise such a fast form?

Regards


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2002)

My Tai Chi instructor, before she moved, had a fast form she taught to younger students for self-defense. She taught the simplified 24-step national form to the bulk of her students who were senior citizens there for health reasons.


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## Taiji fan (Nov 27, 2002)

Was the fast form more Chen like in style?


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## arnisador (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _
> 
> *Was the fast form more Chen like in style? *



I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on this. It used more higher, narrower stances, more 180 degree turns, and kept the arms closer to the body (comparatively).


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## Taiji fan (Nov 27, 2002)

> I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on this. It used more higher, narrower stances, more 180 degree turns, and kept the arms closer to the body (comparatively).


 no probs...I was just curious


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## CraneSpreadWings (Jan 22, 2003)

I lil late with this...sorry...
The staff form I practice is pretty cool but basic- Sifu just calls it Northern Staff form...my staff length is to just above the eyebrow...

I just started the  darn dao/saber/broad sword form I was talking about before and apparently it is not Yang Shr...Yang Cheng Fu designed a saber form that is taught widely now but what we practice is possibly the Tung form mentioned above--there is indeed a "stabbing stamp" and the form also has a San Ti stance in it suggesting some Hsing I influence...He learned the form from Nick Gracenin and I saw it performed last year in Orlando with an old style Dao...pretty nice...I'm stoked...

So far, what Ive gained is a little soreness in my shoulder regions and the sword seems to be getting lighter with each practice...pretty neat!


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