# How does your art deal with two armed attackers?



## Loki (Jun 14, 2005)

Krav Maga has some techniques desgined to be guidelines on how to overtake two armed attackers, one with a stick and one with a knife. Does your art have one? If so, how does it go? If not, how would you deal with such a situation based on your training?


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## Black Bear (Jun 14, 2005)

Dude, that depends on, like SO MANY THINGS. We do train with multiple armed attackers. 

How mobile are you? Who are you with? What are you armed with? What is the layout of the space? What are the weapons? What is the attack (dynamic vs. static line, threat, etc.)?

With multiple attackers the principle of stacking usually applies, provided there's room to move in all directions (or even if not). Different types of weapons and attacks call for you to engage or disengage in different ways, depending on the maximum, optimum, and mininum range of the weapon. 

It's kind of absurd to talk about in the abstract. Throw a picture on the screen and a trained self-defenser will tell you in a second what they do and why. Like: 

"The one with the stick is nearest me, and swinging. I evade backward. As the stick crosses my entry line I shoot in with a forearm to the throat and wrap the hand with the stick to pre-empt the punyo. Rake face, while pivoting to the right away from the knife guy ("stacking"), eyegouge, headbutt-elbow-knee, tear off ears, push (via his face) into the second attacker, evaluate that the second guy is off his feet, grab my son around the waist and run". 

As you can see, this only makes sense in a very specific situation. It could easily be said, "Wrong--the guy with the knife was closest--and he eviscerated you!" or "You should ALWAYS take the knife guy first so you can immobilize the weapon-bearing limb!"or "Why didn't you deploy your own tac folder and disarm the first guy with it?" 

But then if I said deploy a tac folder, someone would say, "Haha, fool--this happened while you were working in a secure facility--you didn't have your folder with you! Shoulda grabbed a lunch tray and rammed it end-first into the guy's teeth!" 

Or someone could say, "That's not gonna work, you fool, they set it up as a canyon ambush, between a trailer truck and a building. You have no room to move!" If I can move, I will. If I can pull a weapon, I will. If I can shoot in and get one guy on his heels right away, I will. Otherwise I do something different. 

There's no such thing as a set technique for "DEFENSE AGAINST: one guy with stick and one guy with knife". 

Fluid situation + fixed response = your body fluids fixed into cement (i.e. you have become a stain on the floor)

It's like Lego pieces being put together. All there is left is skills, drills, and principles. For instance, when there's two armed guys, you're in greater danger, so your freedom to escalate your use of force is greater. On the other hand, as Tony Blauer has said, "what if it's the midget from the Wizard of Oz, and he's now 74 years old and has a butterknife?"


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## Rick Wade (Jun 14, 2005)

Most people that attack do have two arms.  LOL :ultracool 
Sorry couldn't resist.  Just kidding

In American Kenpo we start teaching two man attack or multiple attacks at blue belt and go from there.  At that point you have the base moves to start working multiple attacks at once.

V/R

Rick English


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 14, 2005)

Well...since our school is a Christian business....prayer is always a good first line of defense...


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## arnisador (Jun 14, 2005)

Too many variables. In general, keep moving and try to get them lined up so only one can come at you at a time.


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## Black Bear (Jun 14, 2005)

Rick Wade, that's actually a good one.


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## Loki (Jun 15, 2005)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> Dude, that depends on, like SO MANY THINGS. We do train with multiple armed attackers.


Ooooookay, let me be a bit more specific: You're in a dojo, so you can maneuver all you like, you're wearing your uniform and they're both at a distance from you.

I didn't get too specific (thought these are details I admit I should have included) because I'm interested more in your analysis of the situation rather than if you'd use a hook or a jab. Placing them is exactly is options you can include, since different positioning has different consequences.


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## KyleShort (Jun 15, 2005)

Kill them...kill them all.

In every art I have trained the concept has been the same.  Scream for help, get out of Dodge if you can, explosively attack one of them and keep him between you and the others.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2005)

Move to Canada where we have medicare.  Fighting to armed opponents is going to get you hurt, no matter how good you are.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 15, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Move to Canada where we have medicare. Fighting to armed opponents is going to get you hurt, no matter how good you are.


Use a weapon of your own.  Anything.  Attempt to face of empty handed and you'll get hurt as Andrew noted.  A weapon of your own gives you a better chance...preferrably a smith and wesson.


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2005)

I have to agree with the last 2 posters.  Anytime you're dealing with more than 1 person, getting out of that situation ASAP is key, and moreso when there are weapons.  If getting away immediately is not an option, using something as an equalizer is your next best option.  

Mike


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## Loki (Jun 15, 2005)

In an attempt to get this post back on track, the question is what tactics would you use? what kind of thinking? Obviously it's a really bad situation to be in in the first place and if you can you should run, but what kind of thinking would you employ to get out alive if you're cornered?

We go about it this way: 
A) The stick is a better weapon to use since it has longer range, and is also more dangerous to me, so that's why I'd charge at the attacker and disarm him, keeping him between me and the knife guy, and then bash them both. Keeping the knife wielder between me and the stick guy isn't a good idea, as he can swing the stick over his friend's head and get me.

B) If the knife is closer, he's the immediate threat. I'd defend against him and disarm if possible, and the moment the stick guy gets too close I charge at him and continue like A. If I have the knife, I can throw it (or anything else for that matter) at him to disorient before charging.


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## KyleShort (Jun 15, 2005)

Hmm, I think you may be over analyzing.  Being attacked by multiple armed assailants while you are unarmed is bad.  No strategy you train will pan out when it must.  Just train hard and fight hard.  Run if you can, talk if you can't.

I can understand wanting to collect techniques and strategies and discuss the what-if's to death, but there comes a point when it is no longer feasible to even entertain it.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 15, 2005)

In order to deal with multiple armed attacker, Kenpo utilizes fast hand movements and "checks" to block and off-balance attackers.  These unique Kenpo skills enable the Kenpoist to quickly grab his cell phone and dial 911.


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## Loki (Jun 15, 2005)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> Hmm, I think you may be over analyzing. Being attacked by multiple armed assailants while you are unarmed is bad. No strategy you train will pan out when it must. Just train hard and fight hard. Run if you can, talk if you can't.
> 
> I can understand wanting to collect techniques and strategies and discuss the what-if's to death, but there comes a point when it is no longer feasible to even entertain it.


What happened to muscle memory? Why is it not feasible to train against two armed attackers but it is feasible to train against one knife, or one stick, or two unarmed? Or a gun threat? What constitutes feasible?


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 15, 2005)

Probably the increasing complexity of possibilities.  A single person with four limbs can move in a lot of ways...but they are anchored to the person so you can work against what they can do.  Two people doubles the number of weapons but also geometrically increases the number of possible positions they may be in, just in their own bodies, and then you add in the number of positions they can be in in relationship to each other.

In one on one...you can say "if your opponent does this...you can do that" but with multiple attackers it becomes "if one person does A while the other does B...you can do..." and the possible permutations is *much* higher.

Probably good to practice multiple attackers to get used to improvising, but too many combinations to effectively come up with repetitive, muscle-memory based reactions


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## Mark Weiser (Jun 15, 2005)

The very first thing you would have to do is line them up so that when and if the attack comes the two attackers would be in a linear attack towards each other giving you a momentary pause to move to the side of the closet attacker and then go to town on this attacker making sure the attacker is between you and the second attacker.  Even if the first attacker is taken out you can still use that body as a sheild to ward off any potential attack from the other person while trying to find an EXIT! ALWAYS find an exit ASAP


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## KenpoTex (Jun 16, 2005)

We spent a lot of time discussing multiple attackers on this thread , you might find some of it interesting.  Granted, the focus of this thread was on multiple attackers who are all larger, but multiple attackers are bad news no matter what size they are, or how they're armed.  

As far as I'm concerned, the first strategy is to run like hell.  Failing that, shoot them (all of them).  Failing that, attack the one closest and mess him up as bad as you can; lather, rinse, repeat.  
And...at any time feel free to return to the first strategy of running like hell.


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## Paul Genge (Jun 16, 2005)

The danger with having a predefined set of strategies is that the situation you find yourself in will never be quite like the ones you have planed for.  In systema we do a lot of multiple opponent work including working in and against crowds.

In systema we learn to breath correctly to help calm our fear and reduce tension in our bodies.  In some situations we concentrate on moving and escaping and in others we apply more direct work.  Instead of learning these through set piece techniques we use a nuber of games that get the point across at a level our bodies understand.

I would definately agree with the concept of getting a weapon if one is to hand, but becoming fixated on that could be what gets you killed.

Most attacks have some sort of build up.  This includes threats and posturing.  During this phase it is often possible to escape if your own pride does not get in the way.  If due to your location or other factors you cannot escape your work has to be very direct and efficient.  In any multiple opponent situation you cannot afford to be grappling or rolling around the floor.  As soon as you get tied into one opponent you are a sitting target for the other attackers.  

The best defence of all is not to be stupid enough to place yourself in the situation in the first place. 

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)


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## MJS (Jun 16, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> What happened to muscle memory? Why is it not feasible to train against two armed attackers but it is feasible to train against one knife, or one stick, or two unarmed? Or a gun threat? What constitutes feasible?



Keep in mind that the techniques that we learn are giving us a foundation to further build off of.  If we rely too much on always doing that preset technique in the exact fashion, we are not gaining anything.  When I would do technique lines with students, I'd often have the 'attackers' do an attack that the student was not familiar with.  9 times out of ten they'd stand there with that deer in the headlights look on their face, wondering what to do.  They would say, "I havent learned a defense for this attack yet."  My reply was, "Do you know how to move? Do you know how to punch, kick and block?"  Yes would be the reply from the student.  I'd then say, "Then do it!!!!"  Sure they didn't do that preset, textbook fashion technique, but they did what what needed to do, and that was to defend themselves.  

We can learn 20 preset multi man attacks against weapons, but the fact remains, is that scenario is not going to play out in the exact same fashion as it did in preset tech. #1.  Instead we need to take the concepts and ideas that we learned as a foundation, and learn to build off from there.  We need to react...period!!! Not sit there and think, "Hmmm...ok, which one of the 20 multi man attack techniques am I going to do in this situation?"

Mike


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## Loki (Jun 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> We can learn 20 preset multi man attacks against weapons, but the fact remains, is that scenario is not going to play out in the exact same fashion as it did in preset tech. #1. Instead we need to take the concepts and ideas that we learned as a foundation, and learn to build off from there. We need to react...period!!! Not sit there and think, "Hmmm...ok, which one of the 20 multi man attack techniques am I going to do in this situation?"


OK, let me try to explain myself again. We DO NOT employ preset techniques against two armed attackers. We use preset techniques to teach students how to think when facing two armed attackers. We don't have a technique for when the knife guy slashses and the stick guy goes for your knee.

Like the outer defenses we have, where you lower your front hand in order to block outwards. You'd never actually do that in a fight, you'd maintain your stance. It's a drill meant to teach you what to do if a fight leads to a similar situation. Like you said, this is the concept and foundation. 

On a different thread I listed this as my favorite technique precisely because it requires a high degree of ingenuity and improvisation. If you don't do the technique from start to finish like it's supposed to be on a test, you don't lose points. You lose points if you stop in the middle because it botched. You don't stop until you've beaten the other two into a pulp.


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## MJS (Jun 16, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> OK, let me try to explain myself again. We DO NOT employ preset techniques against two armed attackers. We use preset techniques to teach students how to think when facing two armed attackers. We don't have a technique for when the knife guy slashses and the stick guy goes for your knee.
> 
> Like the outer defenses we have, where you lower your front hand in order to block outwards. You'd never actually do that in a fight, you'd maintain your stance. It's a drill meant to teach you what to do if a fight leads to a similar situation. Like you said, this is the concept and foundation.
> 
> On a different thread I listed this as my favorite technique precisely because it requires a high degree of ingenuity and improvisation. If you don't do the technique from start to finish like it's supposed to be on a test, you don't lose points. You lose points if you stop in the middle because it botched. You don't stop until you've beaten the other two into a pulp.



Looks like this was a classic case of misunderstanding here.  I think we all started thinking about preset moves, rather than just reacting.  As for the tactics that you mentioned on another post...obviously getting out of the situation by running is first on my list.  If thats not an option...I'd do my best to position myself so I could deal with one opponent at a time.  Of course, this may not always be possible, but its worth giving it a try.  I'm going along the lines here of using one as a shield against the others.  Of course, you're not going to stand there all day, but instead try to take him out as quickly as possible and move on to the next.  Again, I'll say that at any time I can find an opening to get out of there, I'll take it rather than stay and keep fighting.

Sorry for any confusion or misunderstanding here. :ultracool 

Mike


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## Makalakumu (Jun 16, 2005)

For my third dan test, I will have to spar a match empty handed vs multiple attackers with weapons.  So far, overall, my main objective is escape.  My secondary objective is to find a weapon.  My third objective is to attempt to not engage everyone.  

I have been visualizing this encounter in order to develop a strategy.  As soon as my teacher calls "shijak" I'm going to run for the door.  If I make it great, if not, then I'm going to grab something, an empty folding chair, and brandish it to make my attackers hesitate so I can escape.  If that doesn't work, then I'm going to use the chair like a sheild and hopefully disable one of my attackers.  If that doesn't work, I figure I'm screwed so I'll just go nuts and atttack attack attack.


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## KyleShort (Jun 16, 2005)

In light of recent discussion on this thread I think my point is further validated.  It is infeasible to train "differently" for multiple attackers.  Train basic and pure.  

Loki, when I said training to successfully fight unarmed against 2 or more ARMED assailants was infeasible, I meant exactly that   You won't win.  So, the only thing that I can concieve of doing is continue to train the way that you do for one opponent...train HARD.  Then, on occasion spar multiple armed opponents to get a feel for it.  

The only way to train for it is to experience it, and all that experience will do is prove to you that you can't win and any strategy aside from running or talking down the attack will be negated.  

For a good test, fight for 1 minute against 2 opponents.  One with a 28" stick and one with a 10" training knife.  See how many times you get hit before you are able to "win"


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## BruceCalkins (Jun 16, 2005)

Not with Knife and Club But I do Have a farm Animal Defense...

*KARATE DEFENSE AGAINST FARM ANIMALS​*​*Traveling around the world, the average hitchhiker can sometimes find himself in the situation where the following question arises: can normal martial-art techniques be used against other species?

Well, I find that Fusho-Satori-Ryu is versatile enough to be used against many species. For instance, the variety of defenses against bear hugs would come in handy against Grizzlies, Polar, or whatever you run into. And at the upper level we are specifically trained to deal with attacks by common barn animals.



For instance:



Sheep Defense #1:

Against a charging sheep attack. Sidestepping by placing the right food behind the left, you dodge the sheep's charging attack, swinging your right arm up and around to bring a hammer-fist to the back of the sheep's head. Follow with a left front kick to the jaw, and then a right reverse leg sweep to both of the left legs, if possible. Cover out, grab scissors, and shear.



Plunging Cow #1:

Against whatever sort of horn attack a cow can mount. Step forward at a 45 degree angle, stepping left and parrying the cow's right horn with a right chop block. Do NOT strike the head. Cow skulls are hard. Follow with a lunging front kick to the udder (also known as the "milking strike"), and then vault onto the cow's back. Use the cowbell-strap as a sleeper hold. When the cow loses consciousness, roll off the cow to one side, then tip.



Multiple Barnyard Defense: 

Against a surrounding attack by a horse, two chickens, and a pig.



Horse



Chicken You Chicken



Pig



You are, of course, facing the horse. As the pig makes its move (it always will), flow towards the chicken on the right, doing a left-handed finger-rake to the horse's nostrils and a simultaneous spinning right hook kick to the pig. With your free right hand scoop up the chicken, keeping your spinning momentum to throw it at the other chicken as a distraction. Rolling across the pig's back, use your free legs and perform a double crescent kick to whatever part of the horse you can reach. Upon landing, bonk the chickens' heads together, grab them, and drive the two beaks into the base of the pig's skull. Throwing both chickens at the horse, do a somersault between the horse's legs, roll out on one side, and leap over the horse, grabbing the mane as you fly across and using it as a takedown. 



Well, honestly, that's about all I can think of. If I'm ever

assaulted by my cat, We will begin training again.

*LOL  Hope everyone found this funny.. ILMAO


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## Rick Wade (Jun 16, 2005)

LOKI 

    Salute, here is the situation as I see it this is definitely one of those threads that you have to be there one on one to work and actually train.  It is hard to picture in your mind when you are just say two armed attackers one club and one knife.  A couple of questions:

Are they flanking you?

One behind one in front?
      One in front got a knife or club?

What kind of attack a jab or slash (Knife)?
What kind of attack overhead or round house or continuous (club)?


These are just a few of the questions to properly paint a scenario.  Then from there you get into the what ifs, like what if the first guy moves and the second guy does this or that.

If you are asking about a specific scenario please paint it out and we can work from there.

V/R

Rick E


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## Ceicei (Jun 16, 2005)

BruceCalkins said:
			
		

> Not with Knife and Club But I do Have a farm Animal Defense...
> 
> *KARATE DEFENSE AGAINST FARM ANIMALS​ *​ *Traveling around the world, the average hitchhiker can sometimes find himself in the situation where the following question arises: can normal martial-art techniques be used against other species?
> *


  I'd love to see a videoclip of all that!!  Thanks for the laugh!

  - Ceicei


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