# Kenpo Ranking Question



## Tames D (Oct 28, 2016)

A question for you Kenpo guys... Just out of curiosity, and not intending to start a political storm...
I was always under the impression that a Black could only promote up to two ranks below his/her own rank. But I've been seeing promotions to 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks by 9th and 10th Blacks. Was I always misinformed about the protocol? It makes sense  that the head of a Kenpo org can do what ever he/she wants, but I'm just curious, having seen quite a few promotions under these conditions.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

I think there are so many splinters and factions that there is no uniform standard.  Rules only apply to whatever group you belong to.


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 28, 2016)

From what I know yes that is the case but well with any martial art there'll always be some who break the rules for profit


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## Tames D (Oct 28, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I think there are so many splinters and factions that there is no uniform standard.  Rules only apply to whatever group you belong to.


Did Ed Parker establish the 2 rank under policy, if there even was a "policy"?


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## Tames D (Oct 28, 2016)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with promoting up to, and including your own rank.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Did Ed Parker establish the 2 rank under policy, if there even was a "policy"?


I guess I don't know, I was in the Tracy lineage.  I'm not sure what that rule even is, in Tracy's.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with promoting up to, and including your own rank.


My first instructor was shodan when he promoted me to shodan, tho he had oversight from a nidan.

We were teaching the Tracy curriculum, my instructor's connection with Tracy's was not direct,  it rather was though his instructor who was direct.  But we kinda did what we wanted, we never even discussed that part.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 28, 2016)

In my kempo style, the two ranks is a hard and fast rule. In my kenpo style, I believe you can promote to your own rank, but being able to promote is earned separately from your rank. I don't believe there's any real consistency among ken/mpo


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 28, 2016)

In that case, by the powers invested in me, I want everyone who reads this thread to slap another piece of electric tape, on the tips of your belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with promoting up to, and including your own rank.


I've always thought promoting to the rank below you should be a no-brainer. Promoting to your own rank...I'd have to think about that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 28, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've always thought promoting to the rank below you should be a no-brainer. Promoting to your own rank...I'd have to think about that.


In theory it could make sense, but that depends on how you train. Technically, you have all the material up to the level you are at, so if you are trained where you have to be fully proficient in that material before you advance (which I would argue you should for any Dan rank), there is no reason I can think of for you not to be able to evaluate someone else's ability to be proficient at the same material. As a 3rd dan (for example), I can't think of why you would know the 1st Dan material well enough to advance someone to second, but not know the 2nd Dan material well enough to advance someone to 3rd.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> In theory it could make sense, but that depends on how you train. Technically, you have all the material up to the level you are at, so if you are trained where you have to be fully proficient in that material before you advance (which I would argue you should for any Dan rank), there is no reason I can think of for you not to be able to evaluate someone else's ability to be proficient at the same material. As a 3rd dan (for example), I can't think of why you would know the 1st Dan material well enough to advance someone to second, but not know the 2nd Dan material well enough to advance someone to 3rd.


I suppose the question is more a matter of how subjective the measurement is. If it's somewhat subjective, the argument could be made that someone who holds 3rd dan doesn't necessarily have the depth of understanding to grade someone to 3rd. If, however, the measurement is largely objective, there's no reason a 3rd dan couldn't provide the evaluation.

For comparison, in Shojin-ryu, the requirement for reaching 3rd is pretty well-defined. An existing 3rd has to agree that someone you're suggesting for promotion to 2nd is properly prepared. If you're making good 2nd dans (instructors) then you're qualified to be a senior instructor (3rd dan) who can make more instructors. In essence, a 3rd dan can promote to 3rd dan.


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## Tames D (Oct 29, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Promoting to your own rank...I'd have to think about that.


Wouldn't that eliminate 10th degree black belts? But then, self promotion would be the answer to that problem


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Wouldn't that eliminate 10th degree black belts? But then, self promotion would be the answer to that problem


The tenth degree thing found a way to eliminate itself...


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Wouldn't that eliminate 10th degree black belts? But then, self promotion would be the answer to that problem


Unless you require a group for promotion beyond a certain point. Of course, in some styles the highest rank is automatically bestowed upon the current head-of-style, which fixes the issue, too.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2016)

I've said this before, I'll say it again.   Personally I dislike the whole dan-grading thing because it is largely used and abused as an ego thing and to hold power over others.  I think the underbelt thing can be useful, it helps student keep motivation, but maybe there could be fewer of them.  But the black belt thing, I think there ought to be only two levels: black belt non-instructor, and black belt instructor.   That's it.  Not everyone wants to be, or should be, an instructor.  So they get the first.  Once someone is bestowed as the nstrictor, that's it, no more.   No more rank to chase.  And instructor can promote all the way to instructor.  And once you decide that someone has earned that level, then they are free to teach and promote and progress as they see fit.  They don't need to ask permission and whatnot, they are responsible for upholding their own standards.  No more empire-building.

That doesn't mean people don't maintain affiliations, or recognize who is senior or from whom they could still learn.  It should just me more relaxed.

Some aspects of the ranking system can be useful, but some can really get in the way and are just nonsense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I've said this before, I'll say it again.   Personally I dislike the whole dan-grading thing because it is largely used and abused as an ego thing and to hold power over others.  I think the underbelt thing can be useful, it helps student keep motivation, but maybe there could be fewer of them.  But the black belt thing, I think there ought to be only two levels: black belt non-instructor, and black belt instructor.   That's it.  Not everyone wants to be, or should be, an instructor.  So they get the first.  Once someone is bestowed as the nstrictor, that's it, no more.   No more rank to chase.  And instructor can promote all the way to instructor.  And once you decide that someone has earned that level, then they are free to teach and promote and progress as they see fit.  They don't need to ask permission and whatnot, they are responsible for upholding their own standards.  No more empire-building.
> 
> That doesn't mean people don't maintain affiliations, or recognize who is senior or from whom they could still learn.  It should just me more relaxed.
> 
> Some aspects of the ranking system can be useful, but some can really get in the way and are just nonsense.


I've never seen it turn nearly as dark as you imply, but I mostly agree. I added only one more rank to what you suggest, so that there's some evaluation of an instructor's ability to build instructors. It's a different skill level than building effective students. So I set it up so shodan (I still use the "dan" terms because it's what I'm used to) is the non-instructor black belt, nidan is a qualified instructor, and a sandan is qualified to promote instructors. Assuming I ever have enough people in Shojin-ryu for this to matter, this structure should help build good instructors and ensure they know who's capable of helping them improve how they teach.


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## KenpoDave (Oct 29, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I don't know, I was in the Tracy lineage.  I'm not sure what that rule even is, in Tracy's.



Typically, in Tracy's, the 2 rank rule is adhered to, although Mr. Tracy announced at the last gathering that moving forward, promotions to 9th or 10th would require a consensus of 3 10ths.

Makes sense, given that the 2 rank rule can't exist at that level.


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## SenseiHitman (Oct 29, 2016)

From what I have seen most styles run out of material at some point in the higher degrees and the last couple belts tend to point out who has committed more to the dojo or seniority, thus they are more of a political rank than a skill.  I dont think it matters how the political ranks are awarded as long as their is no deception about it's origin.  As far as promoting goes I was given permission to promote to the belt under me in Kenpo and two belts under in Ju jitsu.  If someone was given authority by  his organization to promote to the same belt then I would not have a problem with it.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Wouldn't that eliminate 10th degree black belts? But then, self promotion would be the answer to that problem



Not sure about Kempo. but in a few styles I have seen once you start getting to silly high dan ranks they become more political ranks rather than martial arts ranks. 

Like being the pope.


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## Tames D (Oct 29, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Not sure about Kempo. but in a few styles I have seen once you start getting to silly high dan ranks they become more political ranks rather than martial arts ranks.
> 
> Like being the pope.


I have noticed that


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## punisher73 (Oct 30, 2016)

It really depends on your kenpo organization.  Some people who started their own style of kenpo received their rank from an outside governing body.  Others just proclaimed themselves a 10th degree.  Others set up bylaws (IKCA comes to mind) that spells out how many years each degree rank should take and that ANY ONE with the time/effort would be able to test for a 10th degree (not saying anyone can pass or make it, but the chance is there).


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## Kenposcholar (Nov 3, 2016)

I agree with most everyone else in that the organization you study under determines the rules for promotion. I'll insert that my school follows the rule of promotion up to the belt below you but no farther. In order to rank above the associate professor at my school you must travel to another school and gain the rank from another teacher. This forces all students in the school to prove that they can perform to the degree that other schools would expect as well.


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## MI_martialist (Nov 3, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I've said this before, I'll say it again.   Personally I dislike the whole dan-grading thing because it is largely used and abused as an ego thing and to hold power over others.  I think the underbelt thing can be useful, it helps student keep motivation, but maybe there could be fewer of them.  But the black belt thing, I think there ought to be only two levels: black belt non-instructor, and black belt instructor.   That's it.  Not everyone wants to be, or should be, an instructor.  So they get the first.  Once someone is bestowed as the nstrictor, that's it, no more.   No more rank to chase.  And instructor can promote all the way to instructor.  And once you decide that someone has earned that level, then they are free to teach and promote and progress as they see fit.  They don't need to ask permission and whatnot, they are responsible for upholding their own standards.  No more empire-building.
> 
> That doesn't mean people don't maintain affiliations, or recognize who is senior or from whom they could still learn.  It should just me more relaxed.
> 
> Some aspects of the ranking system can be useful, but some can really get in the way and are just nonsense.




Classically, in Japanese systems, there are two grading / title systems.  There is the student kyu / dan grade, level system and the Menkyose...the licensure system.

One can always be a student but all be limited to 5th dan without being invited and going through the Menkyose system, which runs parallel but is not the dan ranking system.  Dan grades are attributed to different instructor levels, and one can only ascend past 5th dan through the process of discovery, which is outside the kyu/dan system and only found in the Menkyo licensure system.

Your idea already exists and has for centuries...the issue is that "modern / traditional" martial arts have borrowed without understanding how it works.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jan 13, 2017)

You can promote up to one rank higher than yourself if the student surpasses the teacher.


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## SenseiHitman (Jan 13, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Classically, in Japanese systems, there are two grading / title systems.  There is the student kyu / dan grade, level system and the Menkyose...the licensure system.
> 
> One can always be a student but all be limited to 5th dan without being invited and going through the Menkyose system, which runs parallel but is not the dan ranking system.  Dan grades are attributed to different instructor levels, and one can only ascend past 5th dan through the process of discovery, which is outside the kyu/dan system and only found in the Menkyo licensure system.
> 
> Your idea already exists and has for centuries...the issue is that "modern / traditional" martial arts have borrowed without understanding how it works.



I saw that in  Ju jitsu training there was belt ranks and then there were the scrolled arts (Monkey) taught to advanced black belts.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You can promote up to one rank higher than yourself if the student surpasses the teacher.


If you get enough like-minded friends together, you can promote each other as high as you like as and organization, and then pretend you didn't just self-promote.


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## Buka (Jan 13, 2017)

I'll see that rank and raise you one stripe.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 14, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You can promote up to one rank higher than yourself if the student surpasses the teacher.


Yeah but I doubt that'll happen much in kenpo as there's to many egos. Now I love kenpo as an art but there's so much bs in the political side. I don't even know half that rubbish I don't care I just want to train but there's so much rubbish these days even coming from parkers family saying you've got to pay them to even put your certificate up in your school.

That was always my problem with kenpo to much bs and suck ups. When a higher instructor comes over they act like a god is coming down to earth and showing them the way of life. I mean sorry ill respect you for your skills but if a higher guy told them to jump off a cliff they'd ask what rock he wants them to land on or exactly what bones to break.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jan 14, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah but I doubt that'll happen much in kenpo as there's to many egos. Now I love kenpo as an art but there's so much bs in the political side. I don't even know half that rubbish I don't care I just want to train but there's so much rubbish these days even coming from parkers family saying you've got to pay them to even put your certificate up in your school.
> 
> That was always my problem with kenpo to much bs and suck ups. When a higher instructor comes over they act like a god is coming down to earth and showing them the way of life. I mean sorry ill respect you for your skills but if a higher guy told them to jump off a cliff they'd ask what rock he wants them to land on or exactly what bones to break.



I completely understand your disgust for the egotistical nonsense and political BS that is a large  but insignificant part of most Martial Arts. Most of that egotistical stuff stops as soon as you get on the mats or get face to face with people. A great deal of it is caused by communicating via cyberspace with people that don't fully understand where each other is coming from, once an actual relationship is established where physical information is exchanged, respect and friendship are natural byproducts. Even the guys that are high up as you put it can be some of the most down to Earth, humble and hilarious SOBs you ever break bread with, at least in my experience that has been the case. All you can do is be the change you want to see, set an example in terms of how you conduct yourself and how you focus on realistic training over pushing political nonsense like "what I do is superior to what all others do," you will end up having a filtering influence and Kenpo will be better for it.


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## Tortoise (Jan 18, 2017)

My understanding is that up to 5th degree is based on knowledge and ability.  Ranks above that are for what you contribute to  kenpo (promoting the art, running schools, seminars, tournaments, promoting others to black belt ...) and time spent.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jan 18, 2017)

The rule is that you can promote people to two ranks below the rank to which you have promoted yourself.


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## Bigsarg (Jul 25, 2017)

Tames D said:


> A question for you Kenpo guys... Just out of curiosity, and not intending to start a political storm...
> I was always under the impression that a Black could only promote up to two ranks below his/her own rank. But I've been seeing promotions to 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks by 9th and 10th Blacks. Was I always misinformed about the protocol? It makes sense  that the head of a Kenpo org can do what ever he/she wants, but I'm just curious, having seen quite a few promotions under these conditions.



Under Ed Parker you could promote to one rank below you own. You could not run your own studio unless you were a 2nd degree BB. Some exceptions were made for 1st BB but they must be no more than 2nd generation. Mr Parker tested all 3rd BBs from all schools. 
The material goes up to 3rd black. After that there were other factors that would earn your rank. 
When Mr Parker died, there was no one person to be his successor. This in my opinion caused major turmoil. People were 3rd BB and in 5 months now they were 7th. So many organizations popped up that it was confusing. My instructor went to WKKA. It was at this junction when I started studying under different arts. I've always tought Kenpo and applied it to each system I trained under. But never joined a Kenpo organization.


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## Headhunter (Jul 26, 2017)

Bigsarg said:


> Under Ed Parker you could promote to one rank below you own. You could not run your own studio unless you were a 2nd degree BB. Some exceptions were made for 1st BB but they must be no more than 2nd generation. Mr Parker tested all 3rd BBs from all schools.
> The material goes up to 3rd black. After that there were other factors that would earn your rank.
> When Mr Parker died, there was no one person to be his successor. This in my opinion caused major turmoil. People were 3rd BB and in 5 months now they were 7th. So many organizations popped up that it was confusing. My instructor went to WKKA. It was at this junction when I started studying under different arts. I've always tought Kenpo and applied it to each system I trained under. But never joined a Kenpo organization.


It's 3rd dan to be a head instructor, 1st dan is assistant instructor, second is associate instructor and 3rd is head instructor


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## Bigsarg (Jul 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> It's 3rd dan to be a head instructor, 1st dan is assistant instructor, second is associate instructor and 3rd is head instructor


Dan ranking is in other arts that I have studied. I've seen it kenpo schools also. However when Mr Parker was alive and IKKA umbrellaed schools that tought his system (24 techniques per belt) it was only 1st 2nd black belt and so on. A 2nd could open a school and be under IKKA with no issues. A 1st BB had to have permission to open a school from Mr Parker and you had to be 1st or second generation. Mr Parker was very interested in who was running schools. I was a 1st BB in 1990 when I opened my 1st school. The only reason was that I was a second generation and had to get a waiver from Mr Parker to be able to promote people under the IKKA. It wasn't just send in a application and your schools in. Mr Parker was hands on. 
As I see it now there are so many fractions out there that it takes me a few minutes when I walk in a school to understand just what this school has done to the system. I see schools with 12 techniques per belt, 6 techniques for some belts and so on. It's still the same system they have just stretched it out to have material to 5th or 7th or what ever.  I'm not saying this in a negative way. Cause some will state Mr Parker wanted his system to evolve. Which I think he did want that. Each person has their own interpretation of just what that means. I guess you could call me a traditionalist to the American Kenpo. I teach all concepts theories and principles in each technique. I stay true to the way I was tought and I show my perception of the technique that I incorporate from other systems to fill the dead space. But when a student tests, it is on the the way I was tought not the way I may have changed it.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 5, 2017)

Nothing wrong with a 9th and 10 degree black belt promoting others to 9th or 10 maybe they were were 8 degree or 9th degree black belt before and the one who promoote them was already a 9th degree or a 10 degree already


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## Headhunter (Aug 6, 2017)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Nothing wrong with a 9th and 10 degree black belt promoting others to 9th or 10 maybe they were were 8 degree or 9th degree black belt before and the one who promoote them was already a 9th degree or a 10 degree already


All these dans mean nothing anyway. In my eyes anything after 4th means nothing. After that it's all about who you know not what your skill is. It's about how many seminars you run or how many students you give black belts to. Heck I know a guy who got promoted to 5th who's skills are about brown belt level at best, never teaches anyone and does nothing apart from watch most classes but he goes out boozing with the right people. To me things like 9th and 10th dan sound good but to me it doesn't mean much to me at all


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## Buka (Aug 7, 2017)

I have it on petty good authority that the Karate world will be passing a law declaring all Karate men must wear underwear that matches their belts.


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## MI_martialist (Aug 9, 2017)

The modern dan ranking system is really interesting.  Classically, anything after 3rd level, or in some cases 5th level, was awarded based on the contribution back...not $$ but rather, what have you or what do you give back in terms of discovery.  What have you discovered that will benefit everyone and how can it be used for training or the organization?  Based on the depth of your discovery, you receive a depth of level.  You see, dan ranking is not about height, but about depth.


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## Headhunter (Aug 9, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> The modern dan ranking system is really interesting.  Classically, anything after 3rd level, or in some cases 5th level, was awarded based on the contribution back...not $$ but rather, what have you or what do you give back in terms of discovery.  What have you discovered that will benefit everyone and how can it be used for training or the organization?  Based on the depth of your discovery, you receive a depth of level.  You see, dan ranking is not about height, but about depth.


In theory that's what it's meant to be but mostly it is about money or how many drinks you buy, I've been around plenty of these 6th and 7th and 8th dans and the majority I've never been that impressed with. I personally know one person who's a 5th dan who 100% doesn't deserve it and messes up teaching even the simplest things like stance set or a purple belt technique. 

Of course eveyone will say it's about contributions but how many times does it actually work that way. That's the problem with kenpo there's no real monitoring of it. I know a guy who got his 7th dan a year after he got his 6th and didn't even live in the same country as his instructor. He went over for a 3 day visit and got promoted without even getting on the mat.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 9, 2017)

By necessity, the multi-level dan ranking system where practitioners can only be promoted by higher ranked instructors of the art has to break down at the higher ranks. To begin with, if the founder of the art is considered to have a rank in that style, then he either promotes himself, is promoted by his students, or is given a rank by someone outside the art being ranked in. (For an example of this last, see the recently-bumped thread from 2003 referencing Dan Anderson's promotion to 8th dan.)

After the founder, adherence to the "promotion only from higher ranks" rule would result in the highest possible rank gradually decreasing in each generation. If the founder's highest ranked student was a 6th dan, then he/she could never promote past 5th, the next gen couldn't promote past 4th, and so on, until no one was left who was qualified to promote to black belt (or whatever the minimum rank is for promoting at all.)

There are various ways around this.

The old Japanese menkyo system topped out at mekyo kaiden, which basically indicated total transmission of the system: the giver is awarding the recipient the same rank that he/she holds. This has analogies in other contexts. For example, in the apprentice-journeyman-master craftsman system the rank of master was awarded by other masters. Ph.D. candidates need their dissertations approved by other Ph.Ds. (The analogy isn't perfect - doctorates are granted by a credentialed education _institution _with standards set by doctorate holders. Master craftsman status was typically awarded by multiple masters in a guild. I'm sure there are probably better examples of rank awarded by a single person of the same level, but they're not coming to mind right now.)

Some modern arts have certifications (associate instructor, full instructor, etc) which map pretty well to the menkyo system.

In some systems, rank may be controlled by a single administrative institution (like the Kodokan for Judo). In this case the highest ranks are typically awarded by a committee of high-ranking practitioner and the ranks may be equal to or higher than that held by the members of the committee. I think this has worked well for the Kodokan, which has promoted only a handful of people to the highest rank over the last century. I'm less impressed by organizations where the top people all cross-promote each other so everybody can hold a high rank.

Some people just end up promoting themselves or acquiring rank certification from outside organizations which exist just to award ranks (either for cash or for the "status" gained when everybody gets to cross-promote each other to higher and higher ranks.) I'm not a huge fan of this.

I think the BJJ system works reasonably well. In most cases, black belt is the highest rank awarded based on demonstrated skill, knowledge, and ability. It's not "complete transmission" like a menkyo kaiden, because there is no complete transmission possible in BJJ - the art is constantly evolving. However a black belt in BJJ is considered a fully fledged representative of the art and qualified to run a school. Subsequent degrees of black belt are awarded based on active time in grade (training/teaching/competing), with the time requirements set so the highest ranks are reachable only towards the end of a practitioners lifespan. An given 8th degree black belt might not be more skilled than a given second degree black belt, but you know that the 8th degree has probably been actively contributing to the art for at least around 40-50 years or so.

In any case, any rank in any art is only meaningful insomuch as you understand the criteria applied by the person(s) awarding the rank. Maybe a particular rank means that you showed up for 2-3 years and learned to demonstrate a certain catalog of techniques. Maybe it means you won a certain number of competitions. Maybe it means you pushed yourself to the limit for 15 years and demonstrated a certain level of technical fighting ability. Maybe it means that you've contributed to the art by teaching for a number of years. Maybe it means you're good buddies with the person giving the promotion. Maybe it means your check cleared.

I only concern myself with a person's rank when I know what those promotion criteria are. In BJJ, standards are generally consistent enough that I can assume a BJJ black belt has a certain minimum level of functional expertise in submission grappling with a heavy focus on ground fighting. In contrast, if someone has a 10th dan in Whatever-Jutsu-Do awarded by the International Council of MisUsedJapaneseTitleShip, that tells me exactly nothing about the person's ability or knowledge. They might be great. They might be terrible. I have no idea, so I don't worry about it.


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## MI_martialist (Aug 9, 2017)

We only ever promote on the basis of merit...accumulation of knowledge and eventually giving back to the curriculum in a significant way.



Headhunter said:


> In theory that's what it's meant to be but mostly it is about money or how many drinks you buy, I've been around plenty of these 6th and 7th and 8th dans and the majority I've never been that impressed with. I personally know one person who's a 5th dan who 100% doesn't deserve it and messes up teaching even the simplest things like stance set or a purple belt technique.
> 
> Of course eveyone will say it's about contributions but how many times does it actually work that way. That's the problem with kenpo there's no real monitoring of it. I know a guy who got his 7th dan a year after he got his 6th and didn't even live in the same country as his instructor. He went over for a 3 day visit and got promoted without even getting on the mat.


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## Headhunter (Aug 9, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> We only ever promote on the basis of merit...accumulation of knowledge and eventually giving back to the curriculum in a significant way.


Well not saying you do or don't because I don't know you but all the fake promotions will have the same things said. Words are easy to say


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> In theory that's what it's meant to be but mostly it is about money or how many drinks you buy, I've been around plenty of these 6th and 7th and 8th dans and the majority I've never been that impressed with. I personally know one person who's a 5th dan who 100% doesn't deserve it and messes up teaching even the simplest things like stance set or a purple belt technique.
> 
> Of course eveyone will say it's about contributions but how many times does it actually work that way. That's the problem with kenpo there's no real monitoring of it. I know a guy who got his 7th dan a year after he got his 6th and didn't even live in the same country as his instructor. He went over for a 3 day visit and got promoted without even getting on the mat.


If 7th is an honorary rank (for contributions to the art), it wouldn't require him stepping on the mat. His instructor may have decided he made some contribution (building instructors, opening schools, etc.) that warranted it. Or it might be crap. IMO, the upper ranks really only matter among the upper ranks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The old Japanese menkyo system topped out at mekyo kaiden, which basically indicated total transmission of the system: the giver is awarding the recipient the same rank that he/she holds. This has analogies in other contexts. For example, in the apprentice-journeyman-master craftsman system the rank of master was awarded by other masters. Ph.D. candidates need their dissertations approved by other Ph.Ds. (The analogy isn't perfect - doctorates are granted by a credentialed education _institution _with standards set by doctorate holders. Master craftsman status was typically awarded by multiple masters in a guild. I'm sure there are probably better examples of rank awarded by a single person of the same level, but they're not coming to mind right now.)


This is the model I used when figuring ranks for Shojin-ryu. I don't know when or if it will ever matter (I'd have to actually promote some folks to BB, first), but I only have 2 instructor ranks. Once someone gets to BB, they can train to become an instructor (and the rank is..."instructor"). Once they do that, they can start promoting others to any rank EXCEPT instructor. Once they prove they can train instructors, they are promoted to "senior instructor". A senior instructor can make instructors. And senior instructors.


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## MI_martialist (Aug 10, 2017)

Divorcing kyu / dan grades from instructional authority is a good thing.  So many systems believe that since there is a black belt, on can become Sensei, or whatever, open a school, and start "teaching".

We follow standard kyu / dan for students, and when one is sponsored (invited) for advanced instructor training, Menkyo titles are awarded after completion of the program.

Of course, in order to do this, one must train under a Menkyo graded instructor.



gpseymour said:


> This is the model I used when figuring ranks for Shojin-ryu. I don't know when or if it will ever matter (I'd have to actually promote some folks to BB, first), but I only have 2 instructor ranks. Once someone gets to BB, they can train to become an instructor (and the rank is..."instructor"). Once they do that, they can start promoting others to any rank EXCEPT instructor. Once they prove they can train instructors, they are promoted to "senior instructor". A senior instructor can make instructors. And senior instructors.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Divorcing kyu / dan grades from instructional authority is a good thing.  So many systems believe that since there is a black belt, on can become Sensei, or whatever, open a school, and start "teaching".
> 
> We follow standard kyu / dan for students, and when one is sponsored (invited) for advanced instructor training, Menkyo titles are awarded after completion of the program.
> 
> Of course, in order to do this, one must train under a Menkyo graded instructor.


In the NGAA, they actually require (and always have) instructor training/student teaching prior to black belt. So, for them, BB was a teaching certification. I liked the approach, but wanted to allow folks with no interest in teaching to get their BB (I saw a couple get held back at brown). I'm not in favor of people getting certification/permission to teach without some instruction in how to teach, wherever that certification occurs.


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## Headhunter (Aug 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If 7th is an honorary rank (for contributions to the art), it wouldn't require him stepping on the mat. His instructor may have decided he made some contribution (building instructors, opening schools, etc.) that warranted it. Or it might be crap. IMO, the upper ranks really only matter among the upper ranks.


He didnt make any new contribution all he did was run his class the same way he'd done for the last 10 years. Personally I believe any promotion should require a test. What if the guy has stopped training and his skills are basically garbage now and he can't even perform basic moves, does he deserve to be promoted then?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> He didnt make any new contribution all he did was run his class the same way he'd done for the last 10 years. Personally I believe any promotion should require a test. What if the guy has stopped training and his skills are basically garbage now and he can't even perform basic moves, does he deserve to be promoted then?


IMO, the point of promotions NOT requiring a test is that they may apply to those of more advanced years. Someone at 70 who is still active in teaching after 50+ years often cannot pass the tests required for the early dan ranks, nor should they need to.

This is actually why I created ranks simply designated "instructor" and "senior instructor". Those ranks are specifically for those purposes. I don't really care if they can still do the techniques at the appropriate level or not - I care whether they can teach them to the appropriate level. It's unlikely they can teach and prepare students effectively without doing the techniques properly, but the goal is the students, so that's where the "test" is.


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## Headhunter (Aug 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> IMO, the point of promotions NOT requiring a test is that they may apply to those of more advanced years. Someone at 70 who is still active in teaching after 50+ years often cannot pass the tests required for the early dan ranks, nor should they need to.
> 
> This is actually why I created ranks simply designated "instructor" and "senior instructor". Those ranks are specifically for those purposes. I don't really care if they can still do the techniques at the appropriate level or not - I care whether they can teach them to the appropriate level. It's unlikely they can teach and prepare students effectively without doing the techniques properly, but the goal is the students, so that's where the "test" is.


Well for me I'm not going to want to learn from a guy who looks worse than a brown belt I'm just not going to do it. How can i listen to a guys advice when he doesn't follow his own advice.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well for me I'm not going to want to learn from a guy who looks worse than a brown belt I'm just not going to do it. How can i listen to a guys advice when he doesn't follow his own advice.


There's a difference between age-related degradation of skill, and "worse than a brown belt". There are guys I know couldn't perform the testing I went through for BB, but who can still demonstrate and teach the techniques better than me. If that weren't true, the best instructors would all be in their late 20's.


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## JR 137 (Aug 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well for me I'm not going to want to learn from a guy who looks worse than a brown belt I'm just not going to do it. How can i listen to a guys advice when he doesn't follow his own advice.


My CI's kicks in some ways are worse than most people with a few months of experience.  He's a 7th dan.  He's had both hips replaced, and is putting off getting one of them replaced again for as long as he can.

But he can look at my kicks and anyone else's kicks who walk into his dojo, pick apart every flaw, and tell you how to correct those flaws.  That's teaching.  If I want to be entertained, I'll look for a teacher who's got impeccable technique.  If I want to improve, I'll take the guy who'll break down my flaws and tell me how to realistically fix them.

Notice how most hall of fame coaches weren't hall of fame players?  The only hall of fame player that is also a hall of fame coach that I can think of is Dan Gable - collegiate wrestler and collegiate wrestling coach.  If anyone can name another in any high level sport (no little league or high school stuff), I'm all ears.


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## Headhunter (Aug 14, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> My CI's kicks in some ways are worse than most people with a few months of experience.  He's a 7th dan.  He's had both hips replaced, and is putting off getting one of them replaced again for as long as he can.
> 
> But he can look at my kicks and anyone else's kicks who walk into his dojo, pick apart every flaw, and tell you how to correct those flaws.  That's teaching.  If I want to be entertained, I'll look for a teacher who's got impeccable technique.  If I want to improve, I'll take the guy who'll break down my flaws and tell me how to realistically fix them.
> 
> Notice how most hall of fame coaches weren't hall of fame players?  The only hall of fame player that is also a hall of fame coach that I can think of is Dan Gable - collegiate wrestler and collegiate wrestling coach.  If anyone can name another in any high level sport (no little league or high school stuff), I'm all ears.


There's a difference between medical reasons and just plain laziness. If someone's injured then okay but the ones I've seen are just lazy who can't be bothered to train and go out getting drunk every weekend and smoking and theyre in their 50s and 60s


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> There's a difference between medical reasons and just plain laziness. If someone's injured then okay but the ones I've seen are just lazy who can't be bothered to train and go out getting drunk every weekend and smoking and theyre in their 50s and 60s


How is that out of line with what I said earlier about advanced ranks not needing testing, because those skills should already have been developed? I've not yet met anyone who was that lazy (drunk every weekend, smoking, etc.) who was an upper rank. Generally, if they are that lazy, they can't teach all that well, either, so promotions for building the art wouldn't apply.


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> How is that out of line with what I said earlier about advanced ranks not needing testing, because those skills should already have been developed? I've not yet met anyone who was that lazy (drunk every weekend, smoking, etc.) who was an upper rank. Generally, if they are that lazy, they can't teach all that well, either, so promotions for building the art wouldn't apply.


There was a local judo club a while back.  The top students were fantastic, and pretty much EVERY MA instructor in the area trained there at one point.  Seriously.

A work friend that trained there invited me to open mat night.  I wasn't too far along in karate, but I was a few months removed from competitive wrestling.  I walked in, and there was this legendary CI I'd heard about from everyone and their brother, previously and afterwards.

He was sitting on a couch in an office, drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, and watching tv.  He didn't even take the cigarette out of his mouth when he greeted me and shook my hand.  People say he had a lot of very bad things happen in a short stretch of time.  The place closed a few years afterwards.  A few of his senior students started a judo club across the river.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 15, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> There was a local judo club a while back.  The top students were fantastic, and pretty much EVERY MA instructor in the area trained there at one point.  Seriously.
> 
> A work friend that trained there invited me to open mat night.  I wasn't too far along in karate, but I was a few months removed from competitive wrestling.  I walked in, and there was this legendary CI I'd heard about from everyone and their brother, previously and afterwards.
> 
> He was sitting on a couch in an office, drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, and watching tv.  He didn't even take the cigarette out of his mouth when he greeted me and shook my hand.  People say he had a lot of very bad things happen in a short stretch of time.  The place closed a few years afterwards.  A few of his senior students started a judo club across the river.


That's in line with my point. His laziness - whatever the cause - kept him from building anything that would bring further promotions in most associations.


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## Azulx (Aug 31, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> My CI's kicks in some ways are worse than most people with a few months of experience.  He's a 7th dan.  He's had both hips replaced, and is putting off getting one of them replaced again for as long as he can.
> 
> But he can look at my kicks and anyone else's kicks who walk into his dojo, pick apart every flaw, and tell you how to correct those flaws.  That's teaching.  If I want to be entertained, I'll look for a teacher who's got impeccable technique.  If I want to improve, I'll take the guy who'll break down my flaws and tell me how to realistically fix them.
> 
> Notice how most hall of fame coaches weren't hall of fame players?  The only hall of fame player that is also a hall of fame coach that I can think of is Dan Gable - collegiate wrestler and collegiate wrestling coach.  If anyone can name another in any high level sport (no little league or high school stuff), I'm all ears.



Zinedine Zidane will be in the hall of fame for coaching once he is done with Real Madrid.


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## JR 137 (Aug 31, 2017)

Azulx said:


> Zinedine Zidane will be in the hall of fame for coaching once he is done with Real Madrid.


Ok.  That makes two.  Potentially.


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## Buka (Aug 31, 2017)

Can't leave out Curly Lambeau.


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## JR 137 (Aug 31, 2017)

Buka said:


> Can't leave out Curly Lambeau.


Not to sound argumentative, but is Lambeau a hall of fame player AND coach?

I know he was part of the inaugural hall of fame class, so he wouldn't be enshrined twice (if such a thing exists).  Everything I've read about him focuses on his starting the Packers franchise and coaching.  I'm just wondering if his playing abilities were up to his other stuff's standards.

But I'll say I can now name 3.  
Edit: Zidane isn't in a hall of fame as a coach yet, so 2.5?  Almost 3?


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## oldsoldier2006 (May 21, 2018)

Tames D said:


> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with promoting up to, and including your own rank.



I see both sides. If I know how to tie my shoe and you don't, am I only allowed to teach you up to two steps away from completely tying your shoe? No. I can teach you how to tie your shoe to completion and neither of us should have to worry about the legitimacy of your knowledge or my teaching. Does that make sense? In theory only, I could easily apply this logic to almost any MA. This isn't to say that I would feel comfortable in doing so. 

But then there is the understanding of hierarchy. In BJJ, one of my two my current arts, a black belt can promote a student up to one rank below his/her own. He/she may not promote a student to black belt until they are awarded their own second degree black belt (which will not happen any sooner than 6 years after attaining the rank of black belt). They could, however, vouch for the student to a second degree or higher as to the promotability of a student at which point it is up to the second degree whether or not they will endorse the promotion. This rule makes sense and I support it. In Kenpo, it would be like a second degree brown teaching other students. Following this practice, they wouldn't be able to promote anyone beyond green belt. I feel that a black belt has put forth the necessary amount of time to know properly how to teach and recognize a student's level of progress bette than any of the lower belts. 

For a while, I was attending a BJJ academy that allowed purple belts to hand out everything up to stripes on a blue belt. This resulted in a lower quality promotee than I suspect a black belt would have yielded. As a no-stripe BJJ white belt with three years of training experience (I hopped gyms, thereby repeatedly resetting the clock to promotion for myself), I was routinely able to defeat upper belts that were promoted by the purple belt instructors. I feel that a black belt (which averages 8-10 years to get in BJJ) has enough experience that leads to a better ability to discern whether or not a student is worthy of promotion. I would sooner apply this logic than I would the first one I mentioned.


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