# Breathe Through Your Hands



## choukyla (Jan 14, 2016)

Please can someone help me understand what is meant by 'Breathe Through Your Hands' ?
I've heard this term used in Tai Chi, but it is also used in Kung Fu too. My Si Fu would say to me 'When he punch or palm someone, he would breath through his hands'.

I've been doing Kung Fu with my Si Fu for 15 years. Everytime he say that, I would ask the same question again and again. What he meant by that...off course he doesn't mean you have holes in your hands and you can breathe through it.

I am worried that if I ask him anymore, he would start to get pissed off.
But he do speak in riddle, so it's difficult to understand...hence I am trying to find a different way of saying it...might finally sink into my dumb head.

What is the bio-mechanical action you do to achieve this ?
If one were to do this, assuming they follow the instruction to the letter 110% correctly, what feeling or sensation do you get to knowledge that you have done it correctly ?

To give an example, when you punch a bag. When you punch it hard as you can, the bag will swing badly. But if you punch using an internal hit, you punch hard, you put a dent in the bag. But the bag hardly move...you've know you have cause an internal damaged to your opponent. So physically, you can see the difference.

Thanks in advance for any help.
If you have any opinion, however small. Please please share.
This is driving me up the wall for the last 10 years or so :-(


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2016)

I have never heard of that expression before.  My Sifu has always told us to center our breathing and focus it in the abdomen below the navel.


choukyla said:


> But he do speak in riddle, so it's difficult to understand


Kung Fu and especially Tai Chi is difficult enough without the riddles.

The only thing that I can think of relates to the flowing of energy.  When I do Tai Chi I visualize myself moving energy with my hands similar to how water moves around the hands.  Sometimes it flows around and sometimes it pushes against.  When I strike I visualize pushing energy out, when I move my hands inward I visualize collecting energy or drawing energy into myself.  In a real world application, breathing in draws energy in, breathing out projects energy (hence breath out when you punch). Breathing in naturally tenses us.  Breathing out naturally relaxes us,  which is why people are told to take a deep breath and exhale to relax.  The bigger the exhale the more relax one becomes.  In Kung Fu it's an explosive exhale in Tai chi it's a slower exhale with the purpose of trying to unify the body and it's actions as much as possible.  In both cases it's the breathing out.

This is about the best assumption I can make based on what I know and how I train.



choukyla said:


> If one were to do this, assuming they follow the instruction to the letter 110% correctly, what feeling or sensation do you get to knowledge that you have done it correctly ?


For me the power of my punches increase greatly without the feeling that I'm trying to "muscle a punch."  I don't burn out a quickly because I'm breathing.  A deep breath out is usually followed by a good inhale of air and oxygen which is good for muscles and endurance. Most of the time, my punches don't feel powerful when generating the energy to deliver it, but the sound of the pads or the indentation of a bag says other wise.



choukyla said:


> To give an example, when you punch a bag. When you punch it hard as you can, the bag will swing badly. But if you punch using an internal hit, you punch hard, you put a dent in the bag. But the bag hardly move...you've know you have cause an internal damaged to your opponent. So physically, you can see the difference.


  Very few people believe this or even understand this.  I remember seeing my friend get excited about punching a 30 pound bag and watching it swing.  Visually it looks impressive, but much of the power is lost which is why the bag swings.  Then I punched the bag and told my friend to look for the dent when I punch.  He was surprised to see the bag cave in so much but barely move.  He tried to do the same but had trouble in creating a large dent.  I was able to do it with ease because it was an ole skool Everlast canvas punching bag that would tear the skin off the knuckles if you punch it with a swiping punch.  Those bags are great for training because it trains the punch to be straight in, straight out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 14, 2016)

choukyla said:


> Please can someone help me understand what is meant by 'Breathe Through Your Hands' ?
> I've heard this term used in Tai Chi, but it is also used in Kung Fu too. My Si Fu would say to me 'When he punch or palm someone, he would breath through his hands'.
> 
> I've been doing Kung Fu with my Si Fu for 15 years. Everytime he say that, I would ask the same question again and again. What he meant by that...off course he doesn't mean you have holes in your hands and you can breathe through it.
> ...



It's visualization.   When you can mentally visualize it happening, you will feel the air literally exiting your fingertips.  As I understand it (and I do not understand it well), the mental condition of feeling the air going in and out of your fingertips allows the chi or ki to flow in a way that is desirable.


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## franklinstower (Jun 24, 2019)

choukyla said:


> Please can someone help me understand what is meant by 'Breathe Through Your Hands' ?
> I've heard this term used in Tai Chi, but it is also used in Kung Fu too. My Si Fu would say to me 'When he punch or palm someone, he would breath through his hands'.
> 
> I've been doing Kung Fu with my Si Fu for 15 years. Everytime he say that, I would ask the same question again and again. What he meant by that...off course he doesn't mean you have holes in your hands and you can breathe through it.
> ...




Its a visualization and an intent thing IME.   When you can do it you can literally feel the energy (spiritual energy) coming in and out of your hands.   In certain meditation training I have undertaken you are taught to breath through not just hands but the chakras, eyes head etc.   It is a certain level of attainment when you can actually feel it happen rather than just imagine it and intend it.

I teach meditation for a living and IME some people can feel energy almost immediately, some awaken to being able to feel it after a short while and some people begin feeling it after years of practice.    Generally speaking I think there are just certain personality types that are disposed to feeling it more than others.   I don't see this as a sign of them being advanced or anything-- it is just a temperament.


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## Buka (Jun 24, 2019)

I'm not familiar with breathing through the hands. Might be part of a cool yodel.






Kind of an Alpine kiai thing. Gotta' love a good Alpine kiai.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2019)

Buka said:


> I'm not familiar with breathing through the hands. Might be part of a cool yodel.
> 
> View attachment 22298
> 
> Kind of an Alpine kiai thing. Gotta' love a good Alpine kiai.



Do this






Now breathe


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## Buka (Jun 24, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Do this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I so have a retort. Not going to go there, though. Nope.


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## jobo (Jun 24, 2019)

choukyla said:


> Please can someone help me understand what is meant by 'Breathe Through Your Hands' ?
> I've heard this term used in Tai Chi, but it is also used in Kung Fu too. My Si Fu would say to me 'When he punch or palm someone, he would breath through his hands'.
> 
> I've been doing Kung Fu with my Si Fu for 15 years. Everytime he say that, I would ask the same question again and again. What he meant by that...off course he doesn't mean you have holes in your hands and you can breathe through it.
> ...


it's just martial arts woo, there a lot of it about, even people who are clearly intelligent to know a bit about biology, and anatomy come out with the most amazing level of nonsense, its like their convinced they have a super power,, 
what biomechanical mechanism does it use ???? non at all its complete nonsence


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## jobo (Jun 24, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> Its a visualization and an intent thing IME.   When you can do it you can literally feel the energy (spiritual energy) coming in and out of your hands.   In certain meditation training I have undertaken you are taught to breath through not just hands but the chakras, eyes head etc.   It is a certain level of attainment when you can actually feel it happen rather than just imagine it and intend it.
> 
> I teach meditation for a living and IME some people can feel energy almost immediately, some awaken to being able to feel it after a short while and some people begin feeling it after years of practice.    Generally speaking I think there are just certain personality types that are disposed to feeling it more than others.   I don't see this as a sign of them being advanced or anything-- it is just a temperament.


those maybe the ones who are very sugestable, people who beilve you've trained them to breath through their eyes are certainly certainly that


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## franklinstower (Jun 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> those maybe the ones who are very sugestable, people who beilve you've trained them to breath through their eyes are certainly certainly that




It is the ability to notice subtle energies and enter into relationship with them.  Sensitive is the word for it.  Some people are just more sensitive than others in this way.   Being sensitive has strengths and weaknesses.  The strength is that you can notice these energies and over time deepen your connection with them.  

You have to understand that NO ONE thinks they are breathing "air" in through their eyes or hands.   The breath is just a way to activate will and intent which is how you interact with these subtle energies.  It seems like the breath naturally harnesses will and intent.  It is subtle energy that you are bringing into your body through the practice.


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## jobo (Jun 24, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> It is the ability to notice subtle energies and enter into relationship with them.  Sensitive is the word for it.  Some people are just more sensitive than others in this way.   Being sensitive has strengths and weaknesses.  The strength is that you can notice these energies and over time deepen your connection with them.
> 
> You have to understand that NO ONE thinks they are breathing "air" in through their eyes or hands.   The breath is just a way to activate will and intent which is how you interact with these subtle energies.  It seems like the breath naturally harnesses will and intent.  It is subtle energy that you are bringing into your body through the practice.


your not bringing energy into your body, except by food and oxygen, the energy is already in your body, not only electrical and chemical energy, but your whole mass ismade of constrained energy e = mc2 and all that, none of there could be considered subtle


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## franklinstower (Jun 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> your not bringing energy into your body, except by food and oxygen, the energy is already in your body, not only electrical and chemical energy, but your whole mass ismade of constrained energy e = mc2 and all that, none of there could be considered subtle




You might just as well have begun our interaction by stating you don't believe in subtle energies, the Tao or God and saved us a lot of time.   I have no interest or need to convince anyone of anything like this.  I don't even care weather someone does or not.   Some of us have experiences with it and interaction with it and so we explore the ways in which you can deepen those interactions and relationships.     For those who don't or don't want to-- that's fine too.  

Live and let live.


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## jobo (Jun 24, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> You might just as well have begun our interaction by stating you don't believe in subtle energies, the Tao or God and saved us a lot of time.   I have no interest or need to convince anyone of anything like this.  I don't even care weather someone does or not.   Some of us have experiences with it and interaction with it and so we explore the ways in which you can deepen those interactions and relationships.     For those who don't or don't want to-- that's fine too.
> 
> Live and let live.


so just woo then, which you cant back up with any science at all,at bit like God. you did start this conversation by stating it as a fact, if it's your believe that's fine, but you seem to be teaching it to sugestable people (for money ?) and that's not really fair


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## franklinstower (Jun 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> so just woo then, which you cant back up with any science at all,at bit like God. you did start this conversation by stating it as a fact, if it's your believe that's fine, but you seem to be teaching it to sugestable people (for money ?) and that's not really fair




I don't live in a time where scientific advancement has STOPPED advancing.   I don't live in a time where everything that science will ever discover or uncover has already happened.  Because of this if I have direct experience with things that our present level of technological advancement is unable to discern or analyze, this does not trouble me at all.  The scientific community has nothing to say about this, as it is presently outside the reach of its development.

Meanwhile I and many others have direct experience with (whatever this stuff is) and the only place where we can get useful information on how to deepen that is religion and/or certain spiritual practices which have been divorced from religion but still used to deepen connection with it.

It sounds like you don't have this kind of experience.  Good for you, in the big picture I doubt that matters much at all.   I do though.  I am 100% OK with you not having the experience and not believing in it.  That doesn't bother me at all. 

It is a fact of my experience that these energies exist, are discrete and useful for many things, spiritual growth/transformation the first among them.


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## franklinstower (Jun 24, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have never heard of that expression before.  My Sifu has always told us to center our breathing and focus it in the abdomen below the navel.
> 
> Kung Fu and especially Tai Chi is difficult enough without the riddles.
> 
> ...




I have thought a lot about this last paragraph over the years.  This topic is very interesting to me.   Do you happen to have experience with using it on a person in actual combat that you could share?  Also have you had or heard of anyone trying this on a punching pad that measures force?    

Also just anything you might add to what you have already said would be appreciated.


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## jobo (Jun 24, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I don't live in a time where scientific advancement has STOPPED advancing.   I don't live in a time where everything that science will ever discover or uncover has already happened.  Because of this if I have direct experience with things that our present level of technological advancement is unable to discern or analyze, this does not trouble me at all.  The scientific community has nothing to say about this, as it is presently outside the reach of its development.
> 
> Meanwhile I and many others have direct experience with (whatever this stuff is) and the only place where we can get useful information on how to deepen that is religion and/or certain spiritual practices which have been divorced from religion but still used to deepen connection with it.
> 
> ...


science has quiet a good understanding of people who experience things that aren't real, and people who convince themselves that they have special powers that strangely can't be tested as they are to advanced for science. if you have energies science can measure them, if they can't be measured they don't exist outside of your imagination science can measure the energy of a single electron, but not your energy it seems !

how do you know it isn't auto suggestion and or a quirk in your nervous system ?


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## franklinstower (Jun 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> science has quiet a good understanding of people who experience things that aren't real, and people who convince themselves that they have special powers that strangely can't be tested as they are to advanced for science. if you have energies science can measure them, if they can't be measured they don't exist outside of your imagination science can measure the energy of a single electron, but not your energy it seems !
> 
> how do you know it isn't auto suggestion and or a quirk in your nervous system ?




Science has no official position on this at all actually.  I know many research scientists and it is interesting that many of them do not have the same take as you.......  I think that it boils down to having experience with it or not having it.

I get it man.  You are a vocal outspoken atheist.  Good for you.  I wish you the very best in life.  I am very comfortable with the position you hold.  I would maybe have the same position with a different set of life experiences.


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## Gweilo (Jun 25, 2019)

The problem with science is, it does not exist until a scientist says so, for many years western science stated that meridian lines and pressure points were falicy, in fact I remember reading once it was claimed that eastern internal philosophy was hocus pocus. Internal and external skills have to be honed, and I am not talking about no touch jet mind stuff. If we are talking evidence, then look at your own experience,  have you ever had a bad feeling about a place or a person that was warrented,  if so you had an internal moment. It is a skill that can be perfected, or ignored, but it is not actually breathing through a finger or eyeball.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> Science has no official position on this at all actually.  I know many research scientists and it is interesting that many of them do not have the same take as you.......  I think that it boils down to having experience with it or not having it.
> 
> I get it man.  You are a vocal outspoken atheist.  Good for you.  I wish you the very best in life.  I am very comfortable with the position you hold.  I would maybe have the same position with a different set of life experiences.


science has no official position on the existence of fairys, or any other superticous nonsence as far as I know, it only has an official position on things that can be observed, calculated and or measured in someway, but there have been many many studies on people claiming " Magic powers" of some sort, which have all failed to manifest in a controlled enviroment,,
science has established that meditation of various sorts are good for you for clearly understood reasons, but none of these reasons are secret energy entering the body ?

so the same question as above, if we except you are experiencing sensations during meditation, how have you arrived as a logical conclusion that it's energy entering your body, rather than a product of your own nervous system


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> The problem with science is, it does not exist until a scientist says so, for many years western science stated that meridian lines and pressure points were falicy, in fact I remember reading once it was claimed that eastern internal philosophy was hocus pocus. Internal and external skills have to be honed, and I am not talking about no touch jet mind stuff. If we are talking evidence, then look at your own experience,  have you ever had a bad feeling about a place or a person that was warrented,  if so you had an internal moment. It is a skill that can be perfected, or ignored, but it is not actually breathing through a finger or eyeball.


well no, science is quite happy to accept the existence of unexplained phenomena, provide that the phonomia can be reliably observed and or measured, the raise of science is based on taking unexlained phenomena and finding the explanation for it. explanation that can themselves be tested and measured.

what scieniance doesn't do, is take a set of circumstances it can't explain and immediately jump to the conclusion that it's god or some other supernatural explination, this approach lead to a marked reduction in the burning of witches


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## Gweilo (Jun 25, 2019)

choukyla said:


> Please can someone help me understand what is meant by 'Breathe Through Your Hands'


In the art I train in, it is similar to what others have posted, visualisation techniques, predominantly we use this technique for moving tension, for example, (hyperphetcal senario) you place your knee on my calf, and apply lots of pressure, it is painful, this pain can lock the whole body, the transference of tension allows me to free myself from the pain lock up, move another part or parts of my body, in order to escape or counter. This is a basic explanation.


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## Gweilo (Jun 25, 2019)

If only this way true, scientific research is based on funding and or private backing and profit potential, and unfortunately,  internal arts are low on profitability compared to pharmaceutical reseach.


jobo said:


> well no, science is quite happy to accept the existence of unexplained phenomena, provide that the phonomia can be reliably observed and or measured, the raise of science is based on taking unexlained phenomena and finding the explanation for it. explanation that can themselves be tested and measured.
> 
> what scieniance doesn't do, is take a set of circumstances it can't explain and immediately jump to the conclusion that it's god or some other supernatural explination, this approach lead to a marked reduction in the burning of witches[/QUOTE)


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> If only this way true, scientific research is based on funding and or private backing and profit potential, and unfortunately,  internal arts are low on profitability compared to pharmaceutical reseach.


that's a bit disingenuous, its probably true that the biggest % of research money is spent by drug companies for the ultimate profitability of drug companies, But, the development of medicine by this model has been to the immense benefit of man kind, allow that there have been a few cock ups along the way.

also in order to make better drugs they have to increase their understand of human physiology, and that then leads to a much greater understanding of how our bodies work, also to the benefit of mankind. but there is also reaseCh by very clever, well resource going on all the time in any field you can possibly imagine,

for instance understanding internal arts is, if your not claiming magic energy, is predominantly developing an understanding of the nervous system, and that is fairly well research both by the drug companies and many others, sports science for instance,, if there not finding evlicence of things its because there not there, not that they arn't looking.

I've seen a study saying that meditation is at least as effective as anti depresents, so it's being research, it appears less useful for dealing with cancer


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## Gweilo (Jun 25, 2019)

I agree with your analogy with reference to pharmaceuticals, but it is not a case of they had a look and it wasn't there, it's a case of developing the skill (without the special powers bs), and just because you have not looked, or only looked once and it wasn't there, does not mean, it's not there.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I agree with your analogy with reference to pharmaceuticals, but it is not a case of they had a look and it wasn't there, it's a case of developing the skill (without the special powers bs), and just because you have not looked, or only looked once and it wasn't there, does not mean, it's not there.


what's not there? if your claiming an unexplained phenomena, they you at least have to go some way to describing it.

our bodies are controlled by our nervous s systems, therefore if you want to have control of your body you need to develop control of your nervous system s, which takes effort and practice and can certainly be called a skill, that not woo or eastern mysticism, its main stream scienc. people who have control of there nervous system are capable of incredible things. things they can demonstrate under controlled conditions.  what you can't do is take it much further and make claims for which there is no evidence and crucially no demonstration


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## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I agree with your analogy with reference to pharmaceuticals, but it is not a case of they had a look and it wasn't there, it's a case of developing the skill (without the special powers bs), and just because you have not looked, or only looked once and it wasn't there, does not mean, it's not there.


 

Even the special powers "BS" is not BS.   It is just rare.  I have been witness to a number of miraculous events, the explanation of which requires subtle energies that are at present outside of the reach of scientific discernment and investigation.   These things do exist but the manifestation of them, in a way that seems to break our present understanding of the world, is very rare.   Rare enough that setting up a lab and telling someone to "do it" is probably not going to happen and if it does it is extremely unlikely to be repeatable.

I don't say these things to convince a devout skeptic or even someone who is firmly agnostic.  I say these things and take the heat from people because there are some people who know or strongly suspect this area of life is real and who need to hear that others know or strongly suspect it too in order to build their whole practice on it. 

It takes a lot to train in such a way as to increase ones awareness of these subtle energies.  A lot.  Everything must change if that is the goal.   The motivation must change in each and every moment of practice (much easier said than done), a sensitivity to what attitudes and approaches increase awareness of these energies over time must be gained and then the person must be wiling to switch from attitudes and approaches that wont lead to an awareness of the Tao to ones that do, and sometimes this change runs very contrary to a persons preferences.   It can be quite difficult.

Even though benefit from this approach is guaranteed there is absolutely no guarantee IMO that supernatural powers will result from the practice but that does happen sometimes.  What is guaranteed is that the person will change into a better person with much more range and a much higher quality state of being that they can take and share with life.   What is guaranteed is transformation, over and over again into a better and better human being.   A person will grow in humility, softness, femininity, receptivity, grace, fluidity, strength, willpower, fierceness, masculinity, activity etc.

These changes come from noticing how the Tao is manifesting itself in the person and being receptive to it and allowing of it--day in and day out.   This is a lot of work in some ways and self will and agenda have to be surrendered and a new attitude of flowing (easier said than done because it often goes against our preferences) is grown into.

In my experience none of this can happen in any serious way unless the primary motivation for practice, in real time and consistently, is for this to happen.   It has to be first and I think a good teacher is extremely helpful too.


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## Gweilo (Jun 25, 2019)

Okay,  read your post to yourself aloud, I agree with you, you can control your nervous system, which is an internal system, not external, gut feelings are internal, these things can be enhanced with training, just like a kick or a punch.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> Even the special powers "BS" is not BS.   It is just rare.  I have been witness to a number of miraculous events the explanation of which requires subtle energies that are at present outside of the reach of scientific discernment and investigation.   These things do exist but the manifestation of them in a way that seems to break our present understanding of the world is very rare.   Rare enough that setting up a lab and telling someone to "do it" is probably not going to happen and if it does it is extremely unlikely to be repeatable.
> 
> I don't say these things to convince a devout skeptic or even someone who is firmly agnostic.  I say these things and take the heat from people because there are some people who know or strongly suspect this area of life is real and who need to hear that others know or strongly suspect it too in order to build their whole practice on it.
> 
> ...


ok, so your claiming to have witnessed super natural things, but no info on how you determined they were super natural, you would need to have considered all natural expkinations first, rather than default togod did it, even you'd need to prove God first

and that its guaranteed that they will become a better person, so you must have some evidence of this to guarantee it.

I'm not a devout sceptic, I'm not sure that such a thing exists, just weary of people who claim super natural powers in return for money


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Okay,  read your post to yourself aloud, I agree with you, you can control your nervous system, which is an internal system, not external, gut feelings are internal, these things can be enhanced with training, just like a kick or a punch.


all bodily systems are internal, apart from skin hair and nails et al. the term is with out meaning in the context of human physiology, 

gut feeling are our ability to assess people or things or situations based on previous experiance though somethings are clear instinctive reactions we were bornwere our

people tend to credit themselves with some sort of 6th sense when they are right, and ignore all the times they were wrong, that if they ever find out they were wrong.

gamblers are particularly prone to this, but the number of ritch gamblers that use their gut rather than logic or form are rather few


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## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> ok, so your claiming to have witnessed super natural things, but no info on how you determined they were super natural, you would need to have considered all natural expkinations first, rather than default togod did it, even you'd need to prove God first
> 
> and that its guaranteed that they will become a better person, so you must have some evidence of this to guarantee it.
> 
> I'm not a devout sceptic, I'm not sure that such a thing exists, just weary of people who claim super natural powers in return for money




I would NOT need to prove


jobo said:


> ok, so your claiming to have witnessed super natural things, but no info on how you determined they were super natural, you would need to have considered all natural expkinations first, rather than default togod did it, even you'd need to prove God first
> 
> and that its guaranteed that they will become a better person, so you must have some evidence of this to guarantee it.
> 
> I'm not a devout sceptic, I'm not sure that such a thing exists, just weary of people who claim super natural powers in return for money



Providing anecdotal stories on the net only works out when you are dealing with people who are genuinely curious and interested and with a person that a trusting relationship has been developed with.     

Not sure what "money" has to do with this conversation or people who "claim" supernatural powers.  I am not talking about either of these.

In the book "Varieties of Religious Experience"  William James does a fair job of treating a multitude of transformational experiences attained through spiritual discipline and the often radical changes these produce in the entirety of a person.  If you really are interested in the topic I think there may be no better place to start.  It is easy to get access to the book online for free as it is a classic of western literature.

It is fair to say though that the changes that take place, while often occurring in differing orders, are quite predictable even if you are the type of teacher, as I am, that does not tell the prospective student what to expect at all.   I like to leave it completely vague and up in the air so as to have the least influence on how it manifests as possible.   From the approach I have learned the methods or techniques of a a system are more ways to cooperate with the changes that happen rather than create them.   The changes are deep and profound and natural provided certain conditions are met.

Of course while very difficult to explain, these changes in themselves do not prove the Tao exists or that God exists-- only that certain practices lead to certain transformations that are in some measure universal to the human experience.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I would NOT need to prove
> 
> 
> Providing anecdotal stories on the net only works out when you are dealing with people who are genuinely curious and interested and with a person that a trusting relationship has been developed with.
> ...


well yes you do need to prove, i fnot to me, then to someone,otherwise your just telling fairly stories, I could claim id seen a fire breathing dragon on my way home from the shops, but only a complete idiots would take my word for it and believe in dragons.  if I found such idiots I could charge them money for taking them to see dragons, and then say if you don't see them, you have to learn to look harder and then charge them more money for teaching them how to look, after sometime, some of them( being complete idiots) might start seeing dragons, through the power of suggestion
. of course if I actually did think if seen a dragon, then you would be right to question my drug use or sanity

and that's rather a close analogy of your argument for secret energy, in fact for any believe system that iisnt built on logic or evidence


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## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> well yes you do need to prove, i fnot to me, then to someone,otherwise your just telling fairly stories, I could claim id seen a fire breathing dragon on my way home from the shops, but only a complete idiots would take my word for it and believe in dragons.  if I found such idiots I could charge them money for taking them to see dragons, and then say if you don't see them, you have to learn to look harder and then charge them more money for teaching them how to look. of course if I actually did think if seen a dragon, then you would be right to question my drug use or sanity
> 
> and that's rather a close analogy of your argument for secret energy,




I don't need to prove it to anyone.  That is your preoccupation.   There are people who know or strongly suspect.  It is those people who are reachable by me.  

You should read the book.   There is no doubt that it would expand your mind and deepen your understanding greatly.  It would NOT convince you that there is God.  That is not the purpose of the book.  It would be impossible to read it and come away with the conclusion that people are making this level of transformation up though.  It is happening and just what that is is a profoundly interesting subject for any human being to consider.


----------



## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I don't need to prove it to anyone.  That is your preoccupation.   There are people who know or strongly suspect.  It is those people who are reachable by me.
> 
> You should read the book.   There is no doubt that it would expand your mind and deepen your understanding greatly.  It would NOT convince you that there is God.  That is not the purpose of the book.  It would be impossible to read it and come away with the conclusion that people are making this level of transformation up though.  It is happening and just what that is is a profoundly interesting subject for any human being to consider.


well yes people who are already suffering from some level of psychosis may indeed be reachable by you.

I've read the Bible, have to say God talking iuyt of a burning bush thing had me less than convinced. why would this book be more convincing, does it contain empical data and double blind studies or just more enabling fairy stories ?


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> well yes people who are already suffering from some level of psychosis may indeed be reachable by you.
> 
> I've read the Bible, have to say God talking iuyt of a burning bush thing had me less than convinced. why would this book be more convincing, does it contain empical data and double blind studies or just more enabling fairy stories ?




William James is considered to be one of the most intelligent people to ever have lived.  His work is a classic of western literature.........   why not just have an open mind and try it out?

Either way I don't really care if you do or not frankly.


----------



## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> William James is considered to be one of the most intelligent people to ever have lived.  His work is a classic of western literature.........   why not just have an open mind and try it out?
> 
> Either way I don't really care if you do or not frankly.


Williams James Sidis is considered to be one of the most intelligent people who ever lived  he had an iq of about 300 are you confusing them ?

however Williams James the author you refer to has no such accolade, obviously fairly clever, but that doesn't prexclude some level of delusion


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> Williams James Sidis is considered to be one of the most intelligent people who ever lived  he had an iq of about 300 are you confusing them ?
> 
> however Williams James the author you refer to has no such accolade, obviously fairly clever, but that doesn't prexclude some level of delusion




Do more than a quick google search.  This is not a fringe area.  The author is greatly respected, highly intelligent and a trained psychologist.

It would be anti scientific to conclude mental.illness without reading the work.....  also seeing as how it is a classic of western literature many great minds have had the chance to read and review it.  


You dont need to begin with an assumption about a work you have not read.

I'm going to work now.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2019)

choukyla said:


> Please can someone help me understand what is meant by 'Breathe Through Your Hands' ?
> I've heard this term used in Tai Chi, but it is also used in Kung Fu too. My Si Fu would say to me 'When he punch or palm someone, he would breath through his hands'.
> 
> I've been doing Kung Fu with my Si Fu for 15 years. Everytime he say that, I would ask the same question again and again. What he meant by that...off course he doesn't mean you have holes in your hands and you can breathe through it.
> ...



Lets get this back on track, sorry for my humorous intrusion before; Was your sifu Chinese? or was his sifu an older Chinese person?

Note: Just looked at the date this thread was started, so I doubt I will get an answer.

The reason I asked the above question is that if the sifu was a Chinese person trained in China, chances are it I more of a metaphor. 

Had one that was only talked about getting power to you elbows because the hands would then follow. Also there are some in Taiji that say the hands follow the breath. Look at anything by William CC Chen and he goes into that in depth.


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## Buka (Jun 25, 2019)

Science can't be wrong. 

The geocentric universe, ulcers are caused by stress, the immovable continent theory, a static universe, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, don't go swimming thirty minutes after eating, vaccines can cause autism, Y2K.

And I'm still waiting for them darn killer bees.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 25, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Lets get this back on track, sorry for my humorous intrusion before; Was your sifu Chinese? or was his sifu an older Chinese person?
> 
> Note: Just looked at the date this thread was started, so I doubt I will get an answer.
> 
> ...


A less TMA way of looking at it is breath timing. I could see someone saying "breathe througuh/with your hands" to mean that your breaths should be in line with your punches. So you are breathing through your hand by exhaling as your hand exhales (punches out), and inhale as your hand inhales (comes back in).


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## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

Buka said:


> Science can't be wrong.
> 
> The geocentric universe, ulcers are caused by stress, the immovable continent theory, a static universe, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, don't go swimming thirty minutes after eating, vaccines can cause autism, Y2K.
> 
> And I'm still waiting for them darn killer bees.




About 15 years ago a giant chimpanzee species (around 300 pounds) was discovered by scientists on the continent of Africa.  Until that moment they had only existed in the mythological minds of locals who spoke of them.  They just popped into existence when a scientist saw them.


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## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

Ive had three serious kungfu teachers.  Two of them meant to breath out of your hands in the sense that energy would flow out of your hands and out of them if you did.

Both of them could transfer energy for healing  and presumably harming.

The other teacher thought of it more in terms of a way to focus physical movement only.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> About 15 years ago a giant chimpanzee species (around 300 pounds) was discovered by scientists on the continent of Africa.  Until that moment they had only existed in the mythological minds of locals who spoke of them.  They just popped into existence when a scientist saw them.


are you really putting forward an argument that as a previously unknown species was " discovered " that supernatural miracles must take place  ! if not what is the point your making? there are many thousands possibly millions of new species out there. there discovery will not fundamentallychange the laws of the universI and mean that secret energy is a thing


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## franklinstower (Jun 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> are you really putting forward an argument that as a previously unknown species was " discovered " that supernatural miracles must take place  ! if not what is the point your making? there are many thousands possibly millions of new species out there. there discovery will not fundamentallychange the laws of the universI and mean that secret energy is a thing




No.  I was making a joke with another poster.


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## jobo (Jun 25, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> No.  I was making a joke with another poster.


so no point at all ?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> A less TMA way of looking at it is breath timing. I could see someone saying "breathe througuh/with your hands" to mean that your breaths should be in line with your punches. So you are breathing through your hand by exhaling as your hand exhales (punches out), and inhale as your hand inhales (comes back in).



not exactly, and in the words of one of my xingyiquan sifus, not at all. but that is part of it, IMO. it is not just timing punches, it is movement of the entire body


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 25, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> not exactly, and in the words of one of my xingyiquan sifus, not at all. but that is part of it, IMO. it is not just timing punches, it is movement of the entire body


Are you saying to not breathe with the timing of the punches, or are you saying in TMA the phrase means more than that?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's just martial arts woo, there a lot of it about, even people who are clearly intelligent to know a bit about biology, and anatomy come out with the most amazing level of nonsense, its like their convinced they have a super power,,
> what biomechanical mechanism does it use ???? non at all its complete nonsence


A lot of it is a visualization - a way of tricking yourself into using the right relaxed extension. I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization. Why do we use them when we know it's not really an energy thing? Because the mental trick still works, and works faster (in the learning process) for most folks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> If only this way true, scientific research is based on funding and or private backing and profit potential, and unfortunately,  internal arts are low on profitability compared to pharmaceutical reseach.


Much of science is not actually based on profit potential, but the funding point is spot-on. Good research - even simple stuff - costs money. Some research just doesn't get funded, so either doesn't happen or gets done in a way that doesn't have a large enough sample size to be reliable. And too often the replication studies are not done, so conclusions drawn from the original research can't be properly challenged by competing data.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I would NOT need to prove
> 
> 
> Providing anecdotal stories on the net only works out when you are dealing with people who are genuinely curious and interested and with a person that a trusting relationship has been developed with.
> ...


A respectful challenge of your thought process on this, if you're open to it.

With statements like these, my first thought is "I wonder how much is confirmation bias?" You've said earlier that certain changes are guaranteed. But are they? Does everyone undergo them? And do they occur at a significantly greater rate than with some other pursuit that includes mindfulness, self-examination, and development of patience?

These are questions that can't be answered without finding some control group to compare to. Otherwise, we're back to the issue of confirmation bias.


----------



## Gweilo (Jun 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization.


Why do you call it Ki techniques, why not muscle manipulation techniques? 
I don't think we can dismiss the internal energy point in its entirety,  I don't believe you can stand 5ft from an opponent, thrust your hand out, and cause your opponent to double up in pain and fall over, but I do think you are able to move tension and power from the torso through to the hands, wether this is a trick or energy, how would you go about decifering the evidence, I once trained with a guy called Ryo Onishi,  who claims he can send all of his energy to his hands, it was very convincing, when I was the volunteer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Why do you call it Ki techniques, why not muscle manipulation techniques?
> I don't think we can dismiss the internal energy point in its entirety,  I don't believe you can stand 5ft from an opponent, thrust your hand out, and cause your opponent to double up in pain and fall over, but I do think you are able to move tension and power from the torso through to the hands, wether this is a trick or energy, how would you go about decifering the evidence, I once trained with a guy called Ryo Onishi,  who claims he can send all of his energy to his hands, it was very convincing, when I was the volunteer.


It's the term we've always used, and meanings change over time. I still tell students to "extend your ki", and they know that means to use that relaxed extension we practiced in those exercises. These terms become shortcuts: "extend your ki" is quicker than "relax everything except the extension muscles, stretch forward, and keep your weight balanced behind it".

Until someone finds a way to measure that energy (rather than the effect, which could be more easily explained as the effect of good use of tension and relaxation), my default position is that it probably doesn't exist. I won't be shocked if we discover there's a form of energy we haven't detected before since this has happened in the past, but I'll be a bit surprised, since current models seem to account for pretty much all of the energy involved (what comes in, to what goes out).


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 26, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> Even the special powers "BS" is not BS.   It is just rare.  I have been witness to a number of miraculous events, the explanation of which requires subtle energies that are at present outside of the reach of scientific discernment and investigation.   These things do exist but the manifestation of them, in a way that seems to break our present understanding of the world, is very rare.   Rare enough that setting up a lab and telling someone to "do it" is probably not going to happen and if it does it is extremely unlikely to be repeatable.
> 
> I don't say these things to convince a devout skeptic or even someone who is firmly agnostic.  I say these things and take the heat from people because there are some people who know or strongly suspect this area of life is real and who need to hear that others know or strongly suspect it too in order to build their whole practice on it.
> 
> ...



Very well said mate, and that correlates with my experience and what I've come to understand over time.

I admire your patience too, wowza!

Ahhh @jobo.... I'm pretty unsure why you've come into this thread. It's clearly not what you're about or interested in, but not sure if you're just trying to disprove it. Doesn't even seem you're open to the possibility of it. I mean, even the foundation of the scientific method is curiosity and openmindedness, or else we can't evolve or learn. Being open to it is pretty crucial to investigating. You're saying you need proof first before you are open to it, but to me a certain degree of rigidness needs letting go of before exploring. Not a complete blind naivety, but a little flexibility.

I understand the skepticism, especially about the money thing and hocuspocus being sold to gullible people, but that's not all there is to all this stuff.

And to me it isn't about supernatural powers as such, that's not really a possibility. If something isn't natural it doesn't really exist, so alot of this stuff is simply what's natural, but occurring at levels deeper than physical. But I guess if it means beyond what is normally experienced that makes sense.

Like franklintower said, this stuff takes a genuine openness and curiosity, but of course it takes a bit of a leap to even consider the possibility that there are things beyond the physical. And not only that, things beyond the traditionally "proveable". Proof is only limited to the mind and concrete objectiveness, whereas alot of energetic stuff is only experiential subjectively.

Things on deeper levels of reality aren't proveable, as they can't be taken within the context of the linear. When the nonlinear is being dealt with it's confirmed via being subjectively verifiable. The mind and logic only deals with concrete linear things that have been conmpartmentalised and labelled, and subsequently artificially separated from other things. When it does this that's when it tries to confirm its own perception through it's own belief systems.

And actually it's only within subjectivity that an idea of proof or any sort of objectivity exists hehe. The physical or gross stuff is literally at the very tail end of what's manifested, so much happens prior to it before there could even be a possibility of physicality.

I don't care either way nor am I trying to convince you, just giving my take and experience on it. Not having explored much ki stuff as such but having explored multiple different healing modalities involving different energies, chakras etc, not to mention my own inner spiritual work for many years, I know it's been incredibly powerful and transformative for me. And trust me I used to be pretty darn skeptical haha.

Proof is such an irrelevant thing in all this, as the mind is so incredibly limited and can't fathom the nonlinear and unprovable. It takes a leap and a genuine interest and motivation, and that's all good if that's not there, nothing wrong with that.


----------



## jobo (Jun 26, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Very well said mate, and that correlates with my experience and what I've come to understand over time.
> 
> I admire your patience too, wowza!
> 
> ...


why would you conclude I'm not interested in it, I find the delusion of " religion" and people beliving their tapping into t mystical powers through prayer or meditation fascinating

science isn't believing any old tosh, the open mindedness, is to critically analyse t  the data to see where that gets you,the data in this instance ito a guy claiming " miracles" which he won't describe, as soon as you declare something a miracle, you've closed your mind to any other explanation but super natural . any sane person would take that with a large pinch of salt and be more than cynical about any other claim he makes.


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## jobo (Jun 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A lot of it is a visualization - a way of tricking yourself into using the right relaxed extension. I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization. Why do we use them when we know it's not really an energy thing? Because the mental trick still works, and works faster (in the learning process) for most folks.


we have had this conversation before, I believe in chi, as a simple people seeking to explain, the human phyci and nervous system, before people had much comprehensive of either and in many respect the eastern view was decades a head of western science. but now sports psychology and physiology has caught up and things like meditation, visualisation, mind muscle connection et al are main steam. 

it's only magic in respect that the potential of our bodies if we control our emotions and nervous system are a  enormous and the abilities of them that do are well outside the scope of those that don't and that can indeed appear magical, if you lack understanding of the mechanisms involved


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Are you saying to not breathe with the timing of the punches, or are you saying in TMA the phrase means more than that?



Phrase means more than that. However I had a xingyi shifu that was against timing breathing with punches and felt you should be able to strike, with power, no matter inhale or exhale.


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A respectful challenge of your thought process on this, if you're open to it.
> 
> With statements like these, my first thought is "I wonder how much is confirmation bias?" You've said earlier that certain changes are guaranteed. But are they? Does everyone undergo them? And do they occur at a significantly greater rate than with some other pursuit that includes mindfulness, self-examination, and development of patience?
> 
> These are questions that can't be answered without finding some control group to compare to. Otherwise, we're back to the issue of confirmation bias.




With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, no one would think it was confirmation bias were they to have seen and experienced the things I have in this realm of Kung Fu and internal energy and meditation.    There is just no way whatsoever, and the more I converse with other martial artists, the more I feel myself to have been very lucky in who I met and what I was taught.   

For me there is no doubt whatsoever that there are "energies" available to us that are not known or labeled by science yet.  It is a matter of fact and experience for me and the sheer range of that experience, and the variety of it, excludes any other possibility.   I don't think that any reasonable person with the same experience set would feel any differently. 

I know what frauds are.  I have met fraudulent teachers both in marital arts and in the meditation world.  I've met and known scammers and opportunist and I have also met real normal stable people for whom these realities are a working part of their lives.  I have been trained by these people and am very grateful for that.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> Science can't be wrong.
> 
> The geocentric universe, ulcers are caused by stress, the immovable continent theory, a static universe, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, don't go swimming thirty minutes after eating, vaccines can cause autism, Y2K.
> 
> And I'm still waiting for them darn killer bees.



Well I was on Atlantis the other day talking with Nessy, Big Foot, Yeren and the Yeti and they say science CAN be wrong


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 26, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Very well said mate, and that correlates with my experience and what I've come to understand over time.
> 
> I admire your patience too, wowza!
> 
> ...




Great post man!!   I think exploring internal energy through healing modalities is the easier and more beneficial way anyway.  Spending years trying to develop Chi so that you can punch someone with it is a dubious motivation IMO. 

However if the exploration is for spiritual/psychological transformation and healing others it seems the doors open quite wide and the path is easier somehow.

I also really like what you said about this stuff not being supernatural (not sure you used that term) chi is natural, it is just what is.  Its just that in this day and age we have become so skeptical that unless a machine can measure it many people wont admit the possibility. 

One of my teachers in shamanism said when we went through the enlightenment and the birth of fantastically useful logical thought and reason and then we noticed that some of our old ideas where not reasonable, were superstitious and some were downright dangerous.   He said that we gave up "ALL" of what we had for this new way of thinking and in the process some people threw out the baby with the bathwater.


What style of martial arts do you practice man?  Also do your teachers or teacher also think the way you do or did you only find this in alternative healing practices?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Phrase means more than that. However I had a xingyi shifu that was against timing breathing with punches and felt you should be able to strike, with power, no matter inhale or exhale.


Okay. Like i said, was just a non-TMA explanation, that might make more sense to people.

Im also of the mind that you shouldnt inhale/exhale with strikes though. I know people who dncourage it, but i feel like it telegraphs a bit, especially with feints, and its also just better to learn to breathe normally as you fight


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Okay. Like i said, was just a non-TMA explanation, that might make more sense to people.
> 
> Im also of the mind that you shouldnt inhale/exhale with strikes though. I know people who dncourage it, but i feel like it telegraphs a bit, especially with feints, and its also just better to learn to breathe normally as you fight


@franklinstower that may be the quickest ive ever had soomeone 'vote' on one of my posts. Im not entirely convinced i hit send before i got your alert


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## franklinstower (Jun 26, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> @franklinstower that may be the quickest ive ever had soomeone 'vote' on one of my posts. Im not entirely convinced i hit send before i got your alert



I was sitting right there when it came in.    I liked it because it seems smart to be able to punch without exhaling and if you can get more power with an exhale then save that for a power shot.


----------



## Gweilo (Jun 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's only magic in respect that the potential of our bodies if we control our emotions and nervous system are a enormous and the abilities of them that do are well outside the scope of those that don't and that can indeed appear magical, if you lack understanding of the mechanisms involved


I had to let you know, that is probably, almost the most sensible thing you have posted.sorry edit, in this thread.


----------



## Buka (Jun 26, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well I was on Atlantis the other day talking with Nessy, Big Foot, Yeren and the Yeti and they say science CAN be wrong



That was you? Damn, bro, I didn't even see you.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> That was you? Damn, bro, I didn't even see you.


Id ask for proof....but you'd somehow find it. And it would become a whole big thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, no one would think it was confirmation bias were they to have seen and experienced the things I have in this realm of Kung Fu and internal energy and meditation.    There is just no way whatsoever, and the more I converse with other martial artists, the more I feel myself to have been very lucky in who I met and what I was taught.
> 
> For me there is no doubt whatsoever that there are "energies" available to us that are not known or labeled by science yet.  It is a matter of fact and experience for me and the sheer range of that experience, and the variety of it, excludes any other possibility.   I don't think that any reasonable person with the same experience set would feel any differently.
> 
> I know what frauds are.  I have met fraudulent teachers both in marital arts and in the meditation world.  I've met and known scammers and opportunist and I have also met real normal stable people for whom these realities are a working part of their lives.  I have been trained by these people and am very grateful for that.


I think I see where you're coming from. Those kinds of statements, however, hold equally true (meaning the experience is real to the person experiencing it) when accurate, or when a result of confirmation bias. People quite regularly cite "miraculous" results that can also be found without the intervention they suggest is the cause. This is why I say you can't really be sure (the generic "you" - you as an individual can be sure whenever your personal threshold is met) until the results are compared to a randomized control group.

I feel pretty certain there are things we don't yet understand the explanation for, and some of this may be in that area. But until someone manages to reproduce at least a portion of it under that kind of controlled circumstances, I tend to attribute the results to more prosaic explanations.


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think I see where you're coming from. Those kinds of statements, however, hold equally true (meaning the experience is real to the person experiencing it) when accurate, or when a result of confirmation bias. People quite regularly cite "miraculous" results that can also be found without the intervention they suggest is the cause. This is why I say you can't really be sure (the generic "you" - you as an individual can be sure whenever your personal threshold is met) until the results are compared to a randomized control group.
> 
> I feel pretty certain there are things we don't yet understand the explanation for, and some of this may be in that area. But until someone manages to reproduce at least a portion of it under that kind of controlled circumstances, I tend to attribute the results to more prosaic explanations.




I hear you and I understand that sentiment completely.  No one should be shamed for not believing someones story.   The problem with reproduction is that anything that would be considered "miraculous" is just extremely rare.   I have never met any person who could do something powerful enough "on demand" to partake in a study that could prove it.

For over 25 years I have been in connection with a number of groups of people who are exceptionally dedicated to spiritual growth.  Only a few of these people were martial artists FYI.   Many of these people meditate 3 or 4 hours a day on top of spending the bulk of the rest of this time engaged in spiritual practices and pursuits.   These kinds of people tend to be more likely to do or experience something that would "prove" to an outside observer there is chi or the Tao or God.

Among the hundreds of people I have been exposed to and spoken with over the years only a very small percentage have ever seen or done something like that-- and even then it is a "one off" kind of thing, or else something that might happen to them a few times in a whole life time.  It is just extremely rare.  _*There are good reasons for this that make sense IME.*_

Then you have to take into account the profound and prolific subjective experiences that are had, in a logical order and that lead to profound transformation of people and lives.  These follow a somewhat predictable and logical pattern and there are maps that describe all of it in detail and how to navigate these stages.

In the christian tradition there have sometimes been 7 stages of spiritual growth defined and spoken of.  In the last 25 years I have only met maybe 4-5 people who have access to or are permanently beyond the 4th stage.  I have met a lot more who can "sometimes and rarely" get into these higher stages but have nothing remotely close to permanent access.

In almost very single case where something extremely miraculous happens it has been when the person doing it was accidentally able to be in a very high place like 6th or 7th stage--- and that just happened to coincide with them being with a person who was deathly ill or had some other verifiable illness that could be cured.

I witnessed two of these that happened in a hospital where a total cure was performed in the hospital room.

Some of us have witnessed these kinds of things and we know.   No one can be expected to believe any of this based on some random persons story on the net.   I share these things because there are people who know or strongly suspect this kind of thing is real and who need to hear it confirmed from the outside to find the inspiration to dedicate their lives to it.    I do this knowing I will be mocked for it by some.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A lot of it is a visualization - a way of tricking yourself into using the right relaxed extension. I teach "ki" techniques to students, and explain that they're just mental tricks that cause us to use better structure and muscle organization. Why do we use them when we know it's not really an energy thing? Because the mental trick still works, and works faster (in the learning process) for most folks.



There is this thing called sports science. That creates real provable and repeatable improvements.

Rather than anecdotes.


----------



## thanson02 (Jun 27, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I hear you and I understand that sentiment completely.  No one should be shamed for not believing someones story.   The problem with reproduction is that anything that would be considered "miraculous" is just extremely rare.   I have never met any person who could do something powerful enough "on demand" to partake in a study that could prove it.
> 
> For over 25 years I have been in connection with a number of groups of people who are exceptionally dedicated to spiritual growth.  Only a few of these people were martial artists FYI.   Many of these people meditate 3 or 4 hours a day on top of spending the bulk of the rest of this time engaged in spiritual practices and pursuits.   These kinds of people tend to be more likely to do or experience something that would "prove" to an outside observer there is chi or the Tao or God.
> 
> ...



I will be honest, I don't like mixing religion with martial arts.  If others want to do that, that is their choice.

Now, I am not saying that these groups don't have their place, I just don't think it is the Dojang. There are some traditional elements in MA that are tied into the religious traditions of Asia, but I think it is better to take those in their cultural context and I don't try to mix them with western cultural perspectives of what we consider the "supernatural".  From what I have seen, none of the Asian religious traditions are monotheistic and the paradigm differences between monotheism and polytheism/animism are so different that trying the blend the two together causes a lot of misrepresentations.


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## franklinstower (Jun 27, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> I will be honest, I don't like mixing religion with martial arts.  If others want to do that, that is their choice.
> 
> Now, I am not saying that these groups don't have their place, I just don't think it is the Dojang. There are some traditional elements in MA that are tied into the religious traditions of Asia, but I think it is better to take those in their cultural context and I don't try to mix them with western cultural perspectives of what we consider the "supernatural".  From what I have seen, none of the Asian religious traditions are monotheistic and the paradigm differences between monotheism and polytheism/animism are so different that trying the blend the two together causes a lot of misrepresentations.




I THINK I see what you mean and pretty much agree with it.  Especially if there were some agenda of conversion going on-- even if it were very subtle.  I would be especially bothered if it were just about beliefs and not tied to any real mystical tradition.  I would not train somewhere like that either.  

However my example of the seven stages are universal and not shared in a dojo.  I used the Christian system as an example to describe a universal phenomenon-- anyone at all who has been exposed the the 3 orbs, 5 orbs, or 7 chakras is going to see much of what they have been taught or experienced in the 7 stages from Teresa of Avila.   This is because they are describing experience with the Tao and that experience will always be more similar than different and have more in common than not.

It is astounding how similar much of it is and how especially in the levels and categories of experience with spirituality you can see we are talking about the same thing.   Different religions _stop and describe_ at different points along the continuum but it is certainly the same continuum being experienced and described-- even if there are multiple methods for attaining it-- and levels of penetration into it.


----------



## thanson02 (Jun 27, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I THINK I see what you mean and pretty much agree with it.  Especially if there were some agenda of conversion going on-- even if it were very subtle.  I would be especially bothered if it were just about beliefs and not tied to any real mystical tradition.  I would not train somewhere like that either.
> 
> However my example of the seven stages are universal and not shared in a dojo.  I used the Christian system as an example to describe a universal phenomenon-- anyone at all who has been exposed the the 3 orbs, 5 orbs, or 7 chakras is going to see much of what they have been taught or experienced in the 7 stages from Teresa of Avila.   This is because they are describing experience with the Tao and that experience will always be more similar than different and have more in common than not.
> 
> It is astounding how similar much of it is and how especially in the levels and categories of experience with spirituality you can see we are talking about the same thing.   Different religions _stop and describe_ at different points along the continuum but it is certainly the same continuum being experienced and described-- even if there are multiple methods for attaining it-- and levels of penetration into it.


So, I usually don't go to deep into the religious discussions and I usually keep it surface-level, mainly because when I open up about this particular topic, it usually goes down some weird rabbit holes.  But I think in the case of this particular discussion if I don't, I think we're just going to keep running around in circles.

In a nutshell, I'm a polytheist. I don't believe in the existence of one all-powerful entity or cosmic consciousness.  I believe that there are many things out there that we choose to honor and hold to high esteem (worship) and given the nature of humanity, I think our tendency naturally goes towards polytheism anyways.  I understand from where you're coming from you don't see that what you're bringing to the table is bringing religion to the table, and if the stuff your bringing up is being kept out of the Dojang, great.

But what you brought up in the way you brought it up has a lot of underlying assumptions that go along with it and I'm not sure that you are in a spot where you can see those things clearly.  From where I'm standing, it's just the area that I'd rather just not have to interact with when I'm working on my training.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2019)

drop bear said:


> There is this thing called sports science. That creates real provable and repeatable improvements.
> 
> Rather than anecdotes.


Um. Did you have a point about something I said there?


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 27, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> So, I usually don't go to deep into the religious discussions and I usually keep it surface-level, mainly because when I open up about this particular topic, it usually goes down some weird rabbit holes.  But I think in the case of this particular discussion if I don't, I think we're just going to keep running around in circles.
> 
> In a nutshell, I'm a polytheist. I don't believe in the existence of one all-powerful entity or cosmic consciousness.  I believe that there are many things out there that we choose to honor and hold to high esteem (worship) and given the nature of humanity, I think our tendency naturally goes towards polytheism anyways.  I understand from where you're coming from you don't see that what you're bringing to the table is bringing religion to the table, and if the stuff your bringing up is being kept out of the Dojang, great.
> 
> ...




You underestimate me.  I've been on the path a long time and have come to be comfortable with certain languages and approaches.   I see these as just that-- language and approaches trying to describe something that is difficult to express.

The point is to get in touch with whatever it really is and if polytheism is working or works I cant really see a problem with that at all.  My first ten years was heavily influenced by shamanism and Hinduism.  

I see all of those different energies (beings) as emanating or expressing one source.  It would seem to make little difference if you or someone else doesnt see it all as emanating from one source.

The only potencial loss I could.see is the loss of non-duality which is the highest state known in most of the major religions but even Hinduism and Buddhism have a lot of gods and demons to and they are in no way missing non-duality.

I think it is great you are a polytheistic man.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2019)

Just a bit of a somewhat off topic/on topic thing

I just feel the need to say this, since we are basically talking CMA and spirituality and religion seems to have appeared

Shén ( 神 )  gets misused/mistranslated by many outside of China when the hear it. It gets translated as Spirit, which automatically leads most westerners to "Spirituality" and that is not what it means. To make things more confusing to the West is the direct translation of Shén ( 神 ) is God. But the Chinese are big on root characters in a category of words, as well as associations as they saw it in antiquity; for example cow  is (牛) Niú and you will find that in anything that remotely resembles a cow. Buffalo is (水牛) Shuǐniú. Everything alcohol with have (酒) Jiǔ (liqueur) in it as well; Beer (啤酒) Píjiǔ, Whisky(威士忌酒) Wēishìjì jiǔ, Wine (葡萄酒) Pútáojiǔ


In the case of Shén ( 神 ) you see it in all sorts of places, that do not necessarily make sense to us, in the west, as a category oo association, but it really have little to do with God or Spirituality. In TCMA you see it used much the same as you see it use in Traditional Chinese Medicine as (精神) Jīngshén (Spirit) or (心神) Xīnshén (Mind). Neither of which have anything to do with Spirituality or God. 

Jīngshén; spirit, vitality, the essence of, consciousness, mind
Xīnshén: Mind

So the Shén being used, and misused/misunderstood in CMA has much more to do with "Thinking" and/or "Mind" that God or Spirituality. 

OK, sorry for the interruption.....But I just had to post that based on the direction this thread has gone


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## franklinstower (Jun 27, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just a bit of a somewhat off topic/on topic thing
> 
> I just feel the need to say this, since we are basically talking CMA and spirituality and religion seems to have appeared
> 
> ...




No one here is translating those particulnar words though.  I haven't seen them come up but maybe Im missing a post here of there.  I  not concern myself with particular words or language because the discussion is more broad than that.

I cant see that it makes any difference unless you are trying to make the case that the Chinese were all atheists and never meant anything supernatural by anything they said.  

You probably dont mean that though but I have heard this attempt spoken by some people in the past and it could only be described as an agenda that forces an interpretation that is not necessary


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## franklinstower (Jun 27, 2019)

I'm thinking now about my shaolin in and Tai Chi and Xing Yi teacher who was from Taiwan.  He did not make a big deal about internal energy as far as speaking about it but more than once someone I knew would have a breakthrough and suddenly feel it very intensely and sometimes surprisingly, and my teacher could tell immediately and would come over and talk to that person about it.

There was/is a whole body of teaching in that tradition for dealing with and recognizing those energies and apparently for spotting someone else who does too.

No way did he think of all of this as physics.  No way


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> No one here is translating those particulnar words though.  I haven't seen them come up but maybe Im missing a post here of there.  I  not concern myself with particular words or language because the discussion is more broad than that.
> 
> I cant see that it makes any difference unless you are trying to make the case that the Chinese were all atheists and never meant anything supernatural by anything they said.
> 
> You probably dont mean that though but I have heard this attempt spoken by some people in the past and it could only be described as an agenda that forces an interpretation that is not necessary



Agenda!? You are way off with that as to what, and why, I was posting. And how you got to that out of a simple translation post I will never know


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## franklinstower (Jun 27, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Agenda!? You are way off with that as to what, and why, I was posting. And how you got to that out of a simple translation post I will never know





I tried to say so towards the end of.the post.  I'm sure you are not saying that.  Sorry for any assumption or misunderstanding friend.

Also I did not imply you were doing so out of agenda.  I was talking about an idea and not you at all man.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I tried to say so towards the end of.the post.  I'm sure you are not saying that.  Sorry for any assumption or misunderstanding friend.
> 
> Also I did not imply you were doing so out of agenda.  I was talking about an idea and not you at all man.



Thanks, but there was no idea, just straight translation of the Chinese to English combined with over 25 years experience in Chinese Martial Arts, some study in Chinese history and culture and over 12 years of posting on MT. 

Posted similar on the terms "Kung Fu" and "Wushu" before. Kung fu means hard work, Wushu means martial arts, it was a misunderstanding by the west that got wushu to be called Kung Fu. And a few other things on Chinese terminology as well.

Did not mean to offend and I apologize if I did


----------



## franklinstower (Jun 27, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks, but there was no idea, just straight translation of the Chinese to English combined with over 25 years experience in Chinese Martial Arts, some study in Chinese history and culture and over 12 years of posting on MT.
> 
> Posted similar on the terms "Kung Fu" and "Wushu" before. Kung fu means hard work, Wushu means martial arts, it was a misunderstanding by the west that got wushu to be called Kung Fu. And a few other things on Chinese terminology as well.
> 
> Did not mean to offend and I apologize if I did




You did not offend.  It was my mistake.


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## thanson02 (Jun 27, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> You underestimate me.  I've been on the path a long time and have come to be comfortable with certain languages and approaches.   I see these as just that-- language and approaches trying to describe something that is difficult to express.
> 
> The point is to get in touch with whatever it really is and if polytheism is working or works I cant really see a problem with that at all.  My first ten years was heavily influenced by shamanism and Hinduism.
> 
> ...


Okay, then I completely misunderstood where you were coming from.

That is on me.

And thank you.....

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk


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## thanson02 (Jun 27, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just a bit of a somewhat off topic/on topic thing
> 
> I just feel the need to say this, since we are basically talking CMA and spirituality and religion seems to have appeared
> 
> ...


That is consistent with what I have seen as well.  That is why I said I prefer to talk about these things in their cultural context.

If I was to translate it in Western talk:
*Spirit=mind/mental capabilities
*Mind/monkey mind=Emotional state


Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk


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## Buka (Jun 27, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> I will be honest, I don't like mixing religion with martial arts.  If others want to do that, that is their choice.
> 
> Now, I am not saying that these groups don't have their place, I just don't think it is the Dojang. There are some traditional elements in MA that are tied into the religious traditions of Asia, but I think it is better to take those in their cultural context and I don't try to mix them with western cultural perspectives of what we consider the "supernatural".  From what I have seen, none of the Asian religious traditions are monotheistic and the paradigm differences between monotheism and polytheism/animism are so different that trying the blend the two together causes a lot of misrepresentations.



I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....
_
So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"

"He said, going up the hill to get crucified by these a-holes, just to save all your butts."

I said, "Whoa, bro, you good with that?"

He said "no worries, my son, be back in a few days. And keep your back straight on the push ups, kay?"_


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Um. Did you have a point about something I said there?



Yes.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> why would you conclude I'm not interested in it, I find the delusion of " religion" and people beliving their tapping into t mystical powers through prayer or meditation fascinating
> 
> science isn't believing any old tosh, the open mindedness, is to critically analyse t  the data to see where that gets you,the data in this instance ito a guy claiming " miracles" which he won't describe, as soon as you declare something a miracle, you've closed your mind to any other explanation but super natural . any sane person would take that with a large pinch of salt and be more than cynical about any other claim he makes.



... you've already called them a "delusion", so your interest is only interested in your perception and take of it.

And saying something is a miracle doesn't mean saying ah it's supernatural and mystical/magical, but simply that it is beyond conventional logical/linear conclusions. Beyond the narrow limitations of the mind.

There's more to life than hard proof and logic bro! The miracle (  ) of life and existence is pretty stunning and full of awe.

If you are genuinely interested, the William James @franklintowers mentioned book is a fantastic one, and also "Power vs Force" by David Hawkins is an awesome one that alot of people find helpful in bridging the gap between science and spiritual realities.


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## thanson02 (Jun 28, 2019)

Buka said:


> I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....
> _
> So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"
> 
> ...



No lie, that hurts to read.............


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## _Simon_ (Jun 28, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> Great post man!!   I think exploring internal energy through healing modalities is the easier and more beneficial way anyway.  Spending years trying to develop Chi so that you can punch someone with it is a dubious motivation IMO.
> 
> However if the exploration is for spiritual/psychological transformation and healing others it seems the doors open quite wide and the path is easier somehow.
> 
> ...



Yeah that's the thing, there's far too much out there that's just a bit of a distraction, alot of funky energy manipulation, exploration of dimensions etc etc.

When it's used for spiritual work and true healing it serves such an incredible purpose. Of course to each their own, but I know for years I fell into the trap of the 'oohs' and 'ahhs', the glamour of the new age stuff, and alot is detrimental if you're still naive and immature, which I was. I think that's why alot of people dismiss it, alot of it they associate with wackiness, cults and making money off naive people, which absolutely has happened, no question. That's why we need guidance from others in order to hone our ability to know what's of integrity, and what's not.

Ah nice, the shamanic stuff is pretty cool, never been drawn to that path but have seen some intense and healing stuff in that with other people haha.

Yeah absolutely, the birth of logic and reason was absolutely a tremendous tool, and the advances have been mindblowing. But when it gets seen as one's reality and how to view life instead of just a handy tool to use, it can then dominate your entire perception and it can really reinforce basic errors. A big error being artificially separating yourself from reality and God as something 'other than' or separate to it. Even the language structure we use reinforces it hey, "I" am "going" to the "shops". Haha, but seen as just a convenience of communication and it doesn't wreak havoc.

Am currently in a trialling period, trying out different martial arts to see what clicks! I came from training in Kyokushin karate for about 8 years, but after much real honesty with myself felt I needed to move on. Was a big realisation for me, and it aligned with a phase in my life of realising I didn't need to be so darn hard on myself and put such pressure on myself, smashing myself into the ground constantly. No longer need to prove myself nor prove that I'm "strong" (my motivation was coming from a place of insecurity and of feeling weak, so trying to prove I'm strong just reinforced the idea that I was inherently weak, defective and incapable).

So still searching at the moment! My teachers didn't really align with my orientation in life, but it all honestly did serve a purpose and I did learn a heck of a lot from it.

But yeah the healing modalities I've explored have been really helpful, from lot of kinesiology, pranic healing etc, all just revealed stuff I was still holding onto that I could now process and let go of. Being into this stuff for years it gets easier to cotton on to what's helpful and what is absolutely just nonsense. But that being said, everything can serve a purpose depending on where someone is in their journey. But to me there is absolutely stuff that has no integrity that should be avoided like the plague! Haha..


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Yes.


Okay, then can you restate it?


----------



## jobo (Jun 28, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> ... you've already called them a "delusion", so your interest is only interested in your perception and take of it.
> 
> And saying something is a miracle doesn't mean saying ah it's supernatural and mystical/magical, but simply that it is beyond conventional logical/linear conclusions. Beyond the narrow limitations of the mind.
> 
> ...


well no, quantum mechanics is weird beyond belief, there's very serious questions being asked by science about the whole nature of the reality that our narrow minds perceive. perhaps our universe is just a simulation inside a computer, which it's self, is part of a a computer simulation repeat to infinity, perhaps our universe is a 3 d projection of a two d universe, perhaps nothing exists at all beyond out perception of it and objects just pop in and out of existence dependent on if it's being observed or not. M ( string )theory need 11 dimensions to work, so the existence of multiple dimensions beyond out perception is main stream science.
 these are all scientific hypothesis that are being serious considered and researched. science and logic are not c.losed minded acceptance of only the phySical things we can currently measure or touch or observe.

the difference is that these will not be accepted as true unless or until someone can get a wall to disappear or can use the uncertainty principal to teleport or the quantum eraser to change tIme. but there is a collective acceptance that our "reality" is not " real"e, but that doesn't of course prove god or any of the other spiritual nonsense.just that we are currently incapable of perceiving what is actually real

it's not a failure of imagination that's the difference between science and spirituality, its that science requires evidence or at least logic and the other just requires gulable people


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## franklinstower (Jun 28, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's the thing, there's far too much out there that's just a bit of a distraction, alot of funky energy manipulation, exploration of dimensions etc etc.
> 
> When it's used for spiritual work and true healing it serves such an incredible purpose. Of course to each their own, but I know for years I fell into the trap of the 'oohs' and 'ahhs', the glamour of the new age stuff, and alot is detrimental if you're still naive and immature, which I was. I think that's why alot of people dismiss it, alot of it they associate with wackiness, cults and making money off naive people, which absolutely has happened, no question. That's why we need guidance from others in order to hone our ability to know what's of integrity, and what's not.
> 
> ...



I am with you on the New Age.   There is good in it but it is by and for beginners and the focus on the Ohh and Ahh, the glitter and glam of it is very high.

Real solid systems that have produced enlightened people over time are the only place to find solid instruction.  I think the New Age serves a purpose but in the end it causes as much harm as good.

In the very beginning of my path I was in the New Age and I was always having cosmic type experiences.   My Tai Chi teacher knew this and did not approve but did not say much.    One day while doing Tai Chi I had a pretty intense breakthrough spiritually.  My whole awareness felt like it sunk about 12 feet down, this changed my entire state of mind and I was fully present in my body and deeply grounded. 


I said "Master Lu something really powerful happened to me today" and he said "what you feel really light" with a hint of sarcasm.   That was when I found out how he felt about the new age movement and the effect it was having on my spirituality.   He thought the down experience I had just had was really good though and would lead to something authentic.


If you are leaving Karate and looking for something that is more spiritually oriented I think Tai Chi is probably the best thing out there.    My Tai Chi is not real Tai Chi-- its just slow motion kung fu that someone from our lineage created so the system had access to deep and profound moving meditation.

Tai Chi taken from this viewpoint is very very powerful and leads to some pretty incredible spirituality.   So does standing in San Ti though from Xing Yi which is my preference but it still does not seem as good as the very slow motion meditation from Tai Chi.

One thing my master and some students did regularly was 3 hour Tai chi.   They would take the form that takes an hour to do and slow it down to 3 hours-- all for the purpose of entering into profound meditative states with your body involved.  This seems to infuse the body with the energy accessed through meditation.   It is very powerful.


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## Buka (Jun 28, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> No lie, that hurts to read.............



Sincerest apologies for any discomfort, it was not my intention. I'd put a bowing emogi here if I knew how.


----------



## Gweilo (Jun 28, 2019)

Buka said:


> I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....
> _
> So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"
> _
> ...



Hmm,  I never knew JC was Hawiian, unless of course you was a green belt, back in the day in Isreal/palestine,  anyhow, you ain't doing bad for a pretty much 2020 year old


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, then can you restate it?



Anecdotal evidence leads to false conclusions.

And a very good example is historical medicine.


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## Buka (Jun 28, 2019)

Well, yeah. Golgotha was the kind of the Hawaiian section of Israel. 

I have some etymological proof. Consider...in Hawaii nobody says "thank you". They say Mahalo, the Hawaiian term for thank you.
Everywhere you go that's what you'll hear, literally dozens of mahalos a day.

If we rearrange the words in "mahalos", like we used to do back in Golgotha, you get "a shalom"

Ahh, but I sense some scepticism on your face.




But I assure you it's almost gospel.

Almost.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Anecdotal evidence leads to false conclusions.
> 
> And a very good example is historical medicine.


I'm trying to figure what the relation is to my comment about using ki as shorthand for proper mechanics.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2019)

Buka said:


> I don't like mixing them, either. Otherwise people tend to post things like this old post of mine.....
> _
> So back when I was a green belt, I was outside doing some push ups in Golgotha when Christ walked by with that big old cross on his back. I said, "Yo, JC, what up, my man?"
> 
> ...



That was you


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm trying to figure what the relation is to my comment about using ki as shorthand for proper mechanics.



Cool. If you work it out or get bored trying give me a yell.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Cool. If you work it out or get bored trying give me a yell.


Can you just clue me in?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Can you just clue me in?


Im gonna guess either that how you use ki is anecdotal, and not what people refer to generally as ki, or that you use ki as shorthand for these techniques, despite there being sport science that has verified ways the techniques/tricks work and names for it. Those are just guesses though, if im wrong than im just as lost as you


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## _Simon_ (Jun 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> well no, quantum mechanics is weird beyond belief, there's very serious questions being asked by science about the whole nature of the reality that our narrow minds perceive. perhaps our universe is just a simulation inside a computer, which it's self, is part of a a computer simulation repeat to infinity, perhaps our universe is a 3 d projection of a two d universe, perhaps nothing exists at all beyond out perception of it and objects just pop in and out of existence dependent on if it's being observed or not. M ( string )theory need 11 dimensions to work, so the existence of multiple dimensions beyond out perception is main stream science.
> these are all scientific hypothesis that are being serious considered and researched. science and logic are not c.losed minded acceptance of only the phySical things we can currently measure or touch or observe.



Yep absolutely, quantum mechanics is at the forefront of this, as they're discovering things that just baffle and defy logic. And they're even realising the role that consciousness plays in all this. The error to me lies in applying logic and proof systemology onto things that it doesn't and cannot apply to. And there are many who even though seeing that consciousness/subjectivity is the thing that needs serious consideration, many still deny it in favour of keeping things objective. Hawkins talks a fair bit about quantum mechanics in the book I mentioned, and explains how pivotal the discoveries have been for sure. I didn't say science is close minded, I said that applying standards you'd use to measure the linear are not appropriate to the nonlinear. They are different paradigms, different contexts.



jobo said:


> the difference is that these will not be accepted as true unless or until someone can get a wall to disappear or can use the uncertainty principal to teleport or the quantum eraser to change tIme. but there is a collective acceptance that our "reality" is not " real"e, but that doesn't of course prove god or any of the other spiritual nonsense.just that we are currently incapable of perceiving what is actually real
> 
> it's not a failure of imagination that's the difference between science and spirituality, its that science requires evidence or at least logic and the other just requires gulable people



And that's why many spiritual seekers have long left behind trying to "prove" these things to people, because it's entirely unnecessary and irrelevant. If you're truly motivated to seek that will lead you into it, there's actually no need to prove spiritual realities to those who aren't interested. Truth stands on it's own merit and power. If you have the genuine spark then following that will lead you. Usually the very insecure need to defensively prove to others.

You're right in that ordinary perception is not seeing reality but just surface level appearance. That's why subjectivity is then explored, your own reality and existence and the enquiry into what this awareness actually is. It's a shift of reference point from perception (beliefs, linear labelling) to letting go of conceptualization into something more primary, a priori and intimate.

But your last line just tells me there's nowhere to go from there. Good luck bro.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 30, 2019)

franklinstower said:


> I am with you on the New Age.   There is good in it but it is by and for beginners and the focus on the Ohh and Ahh, the glitter and glam of it is very high.
> 
> Real solid systems that have produced enlightened people over time are the only place to find solid instruction.  I think the New Age serves a purpose but in the end it causes as much harm as good.
> 
> ...



Yeah I know what you mean! There is definite benefit to some of the genuine new age stuff, but the issue is the infinite exploration and glamorisation of spirituality. True spiritual work is not glamorous and bells and whistles. And if you can't even master or understand this realm/consciousness, what business do you have exploring other astral dimensions haha. And the inherent dangers if you're gullible and naive (which I think is what jobo may be confusing with genuine spiritual inquiry), as you think you're communicating with something of integrity on the "other side", but from what I've gathered they've been at this for millennia, and know how to deceive. You open yourself up to energies that are dedicated to the opposite of truth and love, and that only seek dominion and control over you.

And it leads to just "experience-chasing", which itself is an addiction and a distraction. What you need is within you at all times and isn't given by an "other". Gurus point the way but they're signposts in the end towards your own Self.

And yeah for sure I couldn't count on all my fingers the intense spiritual experiences I've had, and I've come to realise that they're just nice reminders, rather than something to chase. It doesn't mean you're doing the right things as such, but it just reaffirms to you the path and trajectory. And that you're being looked after. They're nice reminders that truth is confirmed within yourself and can't be found in reading the best book, having the best teacher etc.

Ah awesome thanks so much for that, Taichi wasn't actually on my list for some reason but I may just give it go! The martial art I go with doesn't necessarily have to be totally spiritual in orientation, as I feel the most powerfully spiritual one for me will be the one that I really truly connect with on the heart level, no matter if it looks spiritual or not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Im gonna guess either that how you use ki is anecdotal, and not what people refer to generally as ki, or that you use ki as shorthand for these techniques, despite there being sport science that has verified ways the techniques/tricks work and names for it. Those are just guesses though, if im wrong than im just as lost as you


If it's the latter, I'm not sure why it would matter. There are other names for most things, and which name we use for them doesn't much matter, so long as people are learning what they came to learn.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If it's the latter, I'm not sure why it would matter. There are other names for most things, and which name we use for them doesn't much matter, so long as people are learning what they came to learn.



Are they learning though?

How do you support your process.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Are they learning though?
> 
> How do you support your process.


Because they do something different (the desired change) after the teaching. Same way you'd evaluate pretty much any learning.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2019)

Necrothread. It's still just visualization. I do it now without thinking about it. Nothing mystical, new-age, or religious about it. It's even boring. Oh yeah, I breathe through my fingertips. Like the weather, it's always there, just sometimes you notice it.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Because they do something different (the desired change) after the teaching. Same way you'd evaluate pretty much any learning.



So anecdotally.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> So anecdotally.


So, when input produces output, that's ancedotal? By that measure, all results of training are anecdotal.

What are you suggesting is the way to measure learning?


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