# Self defense against a knife



## johnjones33

What is your opinion on teaching unarmed self defense against a knife?  do you think to do so without informing students of the risks involved is negligent?  the reason i ask is i have had people come on my seminars who seem to think that it is easy to disarm someone with a knife without getting injured and are actually hoping to be confronted by an assailant with a knife so they can demonstrate their amazing techniques.

i pray this never happens for their sake.

i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do.  i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one.  A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.

many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent.  thoughts?


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## MA-Caver

This topic has been covered before and basically the end of it all was... you're likely going to get cut. 
The thing is to either avoid getting cut by running away if possible or minimizing the damage as much as possible. Arming yourself with whatever is available at hand, 2X4, broken bottle, stout stick, whatever! ANYTHING to put a barrier between you and the business end of that blade. Going hand to knife... there's going to be blood and pain and damage to YOU no matter what. Never mind what the movies show it's all choreographed and a very dull blade that just looks sharp. The wonders of hollywood.

A long time ago (canna remember if I posted it here or not), I read an article from one of my oldest brother's military magazines. It talked about the H2H combat training involving knives (both parties had 'em and both were sharp). The instructor waited for the recruit to make their move, he grabbed the attacking blade and managed to get his arm around the "attacker's" throat with the blade ready to make an ear-to-ear cut. The recruit dropped his blade and conceded the loss. The instructor then turned to the class while having his hand attended by the medic and stated, "...sometimes you have to throw your hand away..." Now I would imagine that there are a lot of people out there saying "That's NUTS!" or "what a moronic idea!" ... but having myself been in a few altercations involving a blade... I'd be inclined to agree ... provided that once the blade is "stabilized" that yours goes to action quickly and decisively before any more damage is done. Stabilized by either grabbing the blade itself (a definite last resort) or trapping the arm/hand/wrist holding the blade while yours goes to work at the vitals, eyes, throat, heart, near surface arteries anything to put the attacker down quick before they turn the blade on you while entrapped. 
Otherwise run-like-hell. 

if possible.


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## MJS

johnjones33 said:


> What is your opinion on teaching unarmed self defense against a knife? do you think to do so without informing students of the risks involved is negligent? the reason i ask is i have had people come on my seminars who seem to think that it is easy to disarm someone with a knife without getting injured and are actually hoping to be confronted by an assailant with a knife so they can demonstrate their amazing techniques.
> 
> i pray this never happens for their sake.
> 
> i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do. i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one. A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.
> 
> many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent. thoughts?



Well, IMHO, when it comes to the knife, there is alot of crap out there.  Sure, alot of stuff will work when the 'attacker' is compliant, but try the same stuff on a resisting opponent, and you'll likely end up dead.  Yes, of course one should expect to get cut.  As for what to do when faced with a blade...well, of course, if you can get the hell out of the situation, do so.  If not, I'd look for an equalizer....anything that I can grab and use, I'll do it.  I look at it like this...the guy already upped the odds by using a knife, so picking up a chair is fine in my eyes.  If something isn't available, and you must go empty hand, my thoughts are K.I.S.S....anything else, as I said, is asking for trouble.  Control first, and then work for a disarm, all the while using your free limbs to punish the guy.


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## Buka

*I used to teach some nifty knife defenses. The advanced students loved them. They were really cool.*
*I started training knife fighting ten years ago. Found out that all I used to teach concerning the knife was utter nonsense. It was a hard thing to swallow realizing what I had been teaching was probably putting people's lives in jeopardy for all those years. And not just martial arts students. I've been teaching federal law enforcement for a long time.*
*You have to train in knife fighting to learn to defend against the blade.*


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## Thesemindz

Unfortunately I've heard this point of view before. More than once, I've heard people say things like, "If someone attacked me I'd rather if he had a knife than if he was empty handed because that would limit the kinds of techniques he could use." Yah, sure, to _only the most dangerous and lethal ones.

_Personally, I think that's dangerously naive and teaching that to your students is morally negligent. No one picks up a weapon to make themselves _less _dangerous. Knives, and bladed/pointed weapons in general are *extremely dangerous. 
*I teach my students that if they are confronted with one, the chances of them being badly injured are high. Fighting in general is a dangerous and risky affair, fighting with weapons far more so.

It's one thing when untrained civilians have this kind of ignorant attitude. It's another thing when self defense instructors think this way, and another still when they teach it to others. *Knives are dangerous.* They are not toys, and confronting one isn't like in the action movies. It's likely to be bloody and painful and terrifying and *hopefully *you will survive.


-Rob


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## MAist25

Check out what this guy has to say. I think he has a very realistic approach when it comes to knife defense technique...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ&feature=player_embedded


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## johnjones33

thanks for your responses.  this was my first ever post and wanted to get a feel for what people think on here and it's good to get some intelligent responses.  think you can get out of knife fight without getting cut, think again.  FACT you are 6 times more likely to die from a stab wound as you are from a bullet wound.  knives never jam, misfire or run out of ammo.  to quote Mark Twain "when danger threatens, better absense of body than presence of mind" or as the old chinese saying goes "of all the 101 things to do when faced with a threat, the best one is - Leave"


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## Chris Parker

Hi johnjones33,

I teach knife defence as part of our syllabus, and it actually gets more focus that any other area in our "modern" training. The main reason is simply that the most likely weapon to be used in an assault here is a knife, not a gun. If it was a gun, then we'd do more pistol defence. But I digress...

The very first thing we teach when it comes to knife defence (we actually term it "Knife Survival", as the aim is not necessarily to "defend" against an attack, it's to survive and get away) is awareness of when someone may have a weapon, followed by distance management. Next involves understanding of a number of more "psychological" aspects, including how to make sure you recognise the knife (many people who are stabbed just think they've been punched, as they never see the knife), getting any witnesses around to see it as well, and common attacking methods (as well as why they are common).

From there we move into avoidance and evasion drills, and start to combine that with deflective actions, and escape. Up to this point, it has been repeated a number of times that, unless you absolutely have to, do not engage against a weapon.... and, if possible, get an equaliser if you can. But the first rule is to avoid engaging unless impossible; if you can run, run! If they are just after money, give it! Only if you absolutely have to do you engage... bearing in mind that the longer it goes on, the more likely you are to be injured, and the worse you are likely to be injured.

Then we start to look to physical techniques for dealing with such an eventuality. There are a range of principles we use, but suffice to say that control is a big part of it, and everything is based around the training concept of "natural resistance", which, to my mind, is the biggest thing missing in most systems. Many think they have an understanding of resistance training, but they are actually training against unrealistic forms of resistance, which gives completely different body shapes, targets, possible actions, and forces and energies being involved (by which I mean the direction that such force/energy is travelling).

Perhaps another member here may give more of an "outsider's" point of view as to how we do things, as they attended a class of me teaching this subject (amongst one or two others) a few months ago, but I'll leave it to them if they wish.



MAist25 said:


> Check out what this guy has to say. I think he has a very realistic approach when it comes to knife defense technique...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ&feature=player_embedded



Honestly, there's a huge disconnect between reality and what Emin is showing here. The attacks are skilled, but not realistic, neither are the resistances/redirections/follow-ons etc, the distancing is unrealistic, and far more. He has some good ideas, but he's a little trapped in his system to really get a realistic approach, I feel.


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## mook jong man

I trained with Ray Floro  for about a year I dunno if he's known much outside Oz and he doesn't believe in disarms , he believes in capturing the knife arm first then multiple strikes with knees ,elbows ,headbutts , face controls etc and the attacker ends up dropping  the knife anyway.

You also have to go in hard and fast and keep moving in  and keep forward pressure against the knife arm so that it lessens the chance of the attacker doing a sewing machine motion/piston action with his knife arm.

I think if your knife defence technique can't deal with that frenzied sewing machine type attack then you have to rethink the effectiveness of the technique you are using.


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## MA-Caver

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, there's a huge disconnect between reality and what Emin is showing here. The attacks are skilled, but not realistic, neither are the resistances/redirections/follow-ons etc, the distancing is unrealistic, and far more. He has some good ideas, but he's a little trapped in his system to really get a realistic approach, I feel.


Agreed. My time on the streets have exposed me to several knife threats, some directly but most of them just witnessing the attacks upon another. A very large percentage of them were very close-quarter, surprise attacks with the blade hidden until the last moment. Two guys walking towards each other, neither of them being confrontational against the other and bam one guy stabs and slices the other as soon as they pass and the victim had no clue that he was about to be attacked or felt threatened. 
It's an awareness thing actually, watching everything about everyone around you within an imaginary circle... even in a (light) crowd. Heavy crowded conditions... well gotta do the best you can. 
A lot of knife attacks I saw were also clumsy, awkward and just plain lucky to actually get a strike/slice in. 

Awareness... watching the hands, the eyes and just plain being prepared best as you can.


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## MAist25

@ Chris and MA-Caver

I completely agree with both of you on the vid I posted, especially about the distancing. The attacks were coming from very long range for a knife attack. However, I feel that he brings up some good points when he speaks and it is a good visual reference to help understand what he is talking about. I am not at all saying his techniques are flawless but he does have some good points and it is one of the better online vids I have been able to find on knife defense.


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## Chris Parker

Hmm, I don't think you quite get how far from realistic what Emin is showing is. The attacks are unrealistic, the distancing is unrealistic, the techniques are unrealistic, the timing is unrealistic, the responces from both attacker and defender are unrealistic....I could go on, or if you prefer, I could take the video apart and show what I mean. And, as you posited it as a "very realistic approach", it fails in that regard, at least to me.

In terms of better videos out there, my go-to guy for anything to do with knife work is Michael Janich, for a number of reasons.  The first clip anyone should see on the subject is probably this one:


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## MA-Caver

From the comments of the (above) video. 


> When someone who has over 25 yrs experience in Ma study and&#65279; practice on  a very practical level... and they still fear a knife attack when  unarmed... that should be considered a serious lesson right there. If  you still think gun > Knife... then try a simple test... take a water  pistol, place it inside a jacket (as if in holster) and get someone to  rush you from 20 ft away 'slicing' at you with a red water soluble  marker... now see if you get more scribble on you than they get wet on  them.


 Go ahead try it... and of course... *be realistic.   *Personally, I'd rather use a red sharpie... the marks stay longer and can't be washed off easily... kinda like an actual knife wound... permanent.


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## Chris Parker

Ha, yeah, I thought the same thing....


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## tshadowchaser

When I instruct knife defense I always start with a short lecture on the difference between a threat and the actual combat. Once the combat stage happens it is about survival not just about winning. 


Then I explain what is lethal force and when it can be used. I always make sure the class knows when defense ends and their aggression starts. I try to let them know what may be said or asked in court.


Surviving a knife attack is about the choices you make when confronted with the situation and how fast you respond to the threat.


Lastly, before going into the actual class work I let them know they will be affected for life by such an encounter ( win or lose).
you have to remember that in a class we have the attacker attack this way or that but in the street the thug may attack in almost any way


Personally I feel there are way to many people out there teaching knife work that have never been in a situation where they had to deal with someone intent on cutting them. There are also way to many wannabe, self impressed, egotistical, frauds teaching **** that just dose not work


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## MA-Caver

tshadowchaser said:


> Personally I feel there are way to many people out there teaching knife work that have never been in a situation where they had to deal with someone intent on cutting them. There are also way to many wannabe, self impressed, egotistical, frauds teaching **** that just dose not work


Therein lies the problem that gives MA instructors and MA as a whole a bad name. 

Try this... if you live in a large city with a homeless population, you could go to the shelters look around and even interview some "possible candidates" (or even improbable ones) and invite them to your school (after they showered of course  ) and have them "attack" your students as they would anyone they would really do on the streets. They're not going to use "trained techniques", they're not going to be neat, sweet and perfectly timed. They'll use what-ever methods they know which (should) approximate what a majority of folks likely to use "out there, beyond the dojo". Of course use rubber knives or pens or whatever but the effect that the students ( and the instructors as well) will attempt to use their training and see the flaws in it or mistakes they're making. 
You can even offer a sum of $1.00 per student or $5.00 per student the invited guy takes on. They're not to instruct but to act. It's like an "controlled experiment with an unpredictable element thrown into the mix". You could take them on yourself privately (and/or with other instructors) to ensure this guy isn't going to go nuts on you or your students, but that's what the initial interview process should cover, once you (the instructor) are satisfied then bring them in the next training day and have at it. You can have knife drills prior to this day, let the students practice for a bit then bring in the guy. I would recommend finding one that hasn't had "previous MA-training" but if they're veterans then they'll at least have the instruction ideal in their minds already. You of course don't want to find an actual criminal (as if they'll admit it to you) but then again they're there... in the shelters seeking refuge until it's time for them to "go to work". 
Set up whatever scenario you want; out on a date, walking from office/class to car, taking a short cut through an alley to get home quicker, various parking lot scenarios (store, movie, mall, etc.) whatever! You can make it a one day seminar of sorts that the students pay extra (the $1-5.00 fee to the homeless guy), so it's no "out of pocket" expense from the school. You of course can determine the age/rank of the student that'll be allowed to participate. 

If anything the few bucks the homeless guy makes is money in their pocket to fulfill their needs for a day or three, you expose your students to a "real-life" element (kinda) and it's a win-win as far as I can see it. It can be fun but more importantly it'll likely be very educational.


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## MAist25

@ Chris

I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real  blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window. 

A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.


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## geezer

MAist25 said:


> @ Chris
> 
> I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real  blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.
> 
> A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.



You make some good points here. Chris counters the video of Emin with Janich. Well Janich is pretty much a blade _specialist_, and it shows. Emin is a generalist. I know because he and I trained under the same people... Leung Ting for Wing Tsun and Rene Latosa for Escrima. Many years back I also trained briefly under Emin. Like Janich, Latosa introduces you to knife defense with a healthy dose of reality. The difference is that he doesn't teach lower level people anything complex. It's strickly KISS... and if you can't get away, then be as aggressive as hell. Don't mess around with complex moves. Move in, take out your attacker's "control center", _and end it_. Understand that you will get cut, and if you get out of it alive... it's been a good day.


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## MA-Caver

geezer said:


> MAist25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @ Chris
> 
> I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic  as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think  that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is  the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a  knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held  up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have  practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real  blade  came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker,  everything went out the window.
> 
> A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well  as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired,  scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial  artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive,  especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says  because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out  there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize  the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt  you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to  attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent  so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you  back.
> 
> 
> 
> You make some good points here. Chris counters the video of Emin with Janich. Well Janich is pretty much a blade _specialist_, and it shows. Emin is a generalist. I know because he and I trained under the same people... Leung Ting for Wing Tsun and Rene Latosa for Escrima. Many years back I also trained briefly under Emin. Like Janich, Latosa introduces you to knife defense with a healthy dose of reality. The difference is that he doesn't teach lower level people anything complex. It's strictly KISS... and if you can't get away, then be as aggressive as hell. Don't mess around with complex moves. Move in, take out your attacker's "control center", _and end it_. Understand that you will get cut, and if you get out of it alive... it's been a good day.
Click to expand...

I don't think Chris was trying to critique the video too much on purpose or to put it down. There ARE a lot of those videos lurking in You Tube and one has to be careful about what they're watching and even more careful to take it as gospel. I agree with the video itself that you attack hard and quick and with anything that is nearby or just be mean as hell with your hands and feet, like it was stated: get scared, injured or tired and the fms goes out the window... but as you say.. as MA-ists we need to learn focus (hence the need for learning meditation techniques) and to control the adrenalin dump so it works to our advantage in a life and death altercation... and ANY encounter with a blade is automatically "life and death". Treat it as such and use your training best as you can and come out of it alive (even if not in one piece)... you're doing okay.


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## Thesemindz

This discussion reminds me of a black belt class we had years ago. We had spent the whole hour working on knives, knife attacks, knife defenses, knife disarms, knife drawing, knife versus empty hand, and knife versus knife. At the end of the class, the instructor had us squaring off one on one, knife versus empty hand, while the rest of the class watched. All black belts with multiple years of training experience. One at a time, we'd square off, the attacker would lunge in and the defender would step off line, deflect and control, counter with strikes, takedown the opponent, disarm and finish. Everybody used the techniques we'd been practicing, everybody survived.

Then the instructor said he wanted to do one more demonstration, so he grabbed the knife, squared off against one of the senior instructors, and charged at him. He grabbed the guy by the shoulder, and attacked him with repeated pummeling strikes, chasing him back, knocking him to the floor, and following him down with stab after stab after stab. Dead.

The instructor stopped at that point and turned to the class and pointed out that there was a big difference between knife sparring/dueling and a sudden violent knife assault. A knife wielding attacker doesn't lunge from four feet away. A knife wielding attacker doesn't hold the weapon out away from his body and attack you from directly in front. A knife wielding attacker doesn't even let you see the weapon. He buries it in your flesh, withdraws, and then re-feeds the blade again and again and again. Until you are dead. And maybe for some time after that.

I think there is value in the kind of knife defense that Emin demonstrated in his video. Distance is my best friend. If I can create that distance between me and the attacker and keep him at distance using long range strikes and defensive footwork, I may be able to keep him out of range long enough to escape. But the attack won't start at long range. It will start inside trapping range, and I have to be able to survive the initial assault before I can worry about moving outside critical distance.

I tell my students all the time. Weapons are force multipliers. From the first caveman who picked up a rock, combatants only ever picked up weapons to make themselves more dangerous. And in some ways, at close range, bladed/pointed weapons may be the most dangerous weapons of all.


-Rob


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## Chris Parker

MAist25 said:


> @ Chris
> 
> I still dont agree with you that what Emin displayed was as unrealistic as you say. I have seen far far worse than what he has shown. I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.
> 
> A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.



Oh, I've seen far worse as well, that's for sure. And Emin is definately skilled in what he does; he's fast, explosive, relaxed, confident, all good things. But what was being shown was removed from the realities of knife defence in many fundamental ways. That's really all I was getting at.

Without getting into too much detail, here is the clip again, with some of the things I'm talking about highlighted:





Right. Straight off the bat he's talking about what "some other systems do", implying that some arts put the knife in a dangerous position (in front of the defender), and he's showing that by showing a very flawed grappling-style responce. That is his first trick, and is not the way things are done in such systems. Next he discredits the "grab the knife hand" idea by basically using a little trick, similar to sleight of hand. Ray Floro does a similar thing, and they're both pretty good at it, but it's not realistic at all. If you know what you're looking at, then this demo is nothing more than a way to put his own ideas over any others that may be around. Emin even goes so far as to say "Look, I don't even have to do it fast", which I find amusing as his method there (of changing his attack, including the angle, range, speed, and target) works much better for him when he does it slow. Basically, it's a trick, and it's not based in any form of knife defence reality.

His next comments that, if you can, run away, and only fight back if absolutely necessary, I agree with wholeheartedly. Same with the idea that it's better to take a cut to your forearms than a stab to the torso (although why he keeps showing the inside of his forearms I don't quite get). Then we get to something physical.

The first movement he shows is moving in to the inside, checking the attack with his rear hand (his left), and striking with his right. He accompanies this by saying that you should always use "straight shots", and not think about just going for the weapon (he then demonstrates grabbing at the wrist with both hands) because "he has asecond hand". Here's where all the disconnects happen.

Emin is not addressing any reality of what happens with both the attacker and the defender on a number of levels, most particularly psychologically, but also tactically. Psychologically speaking, someone attacks someone else when they feel they have an advantage, whether it is strength, speed, size, numbers, experience, skill, or, commonly, a weapon. And that is the situation we find here. The attacker is attacking with a perceived advantage, the weapon. In other words, the weapon is their "power", it is what is allowing them to be better, stronger etc. If you do grab their weapon (well, not the way that Emin showed here), then their immediate responce is not to strike with the second hand, it will be to try to retain/regain control of the weapon, ie their strength and advantage, their power. So what needs to be dealt with if capturing the weaopn hand is the immediate responce of trying to pull the weapon back.

With the defender, Emin is showing always moving forward into the attack, which is a high-level responce. In fact, I'd probably suggest that, if faced with an actual knife assault, Emin's immediate responce would not be what he is showing here, it would be a "fright" responce, in other words, a move back away from a sudden attack. Only after that would he possibly continue on to what he is showing here. So that's a lack of understanding, or at least addressing, of the realities of the psychological aspects of this situation.

The next gap in reality is in the attacks and defences, in terms of tactics. The attacks are from an unrealistic distance (the primary tactic for a knife assault is an ambush, close range assassination-style assault, not a lunging attack from a few metres away), fairly simple, telegraphed, and single attacks. Any cursory research into knife assaults show that this is far from the reality, and again is there to help Emin look good. His movements are tight, minimalist, skillful, explosive, relaxed, and fast. However, they are being applied against slower, bigger actions, commited to a single attack. This is further highlighted when Emin shows knife against stick, and asks for it to be done slowly, he regularly speeds up his responce to the slower attacks. Like I tell my guys, it's not really winning a race if you're in a Ferrari and the other guy is driving a go kart.

You said that:


			
				MAist25 said:
			
		

> I think that quick blocks and immediate, relentless attack on the assailant is the best you can do against a knife attack. Being defensive against a knife-weilder will only get you killed, in my opinion. I have been held up at knifepoint and started thinking about all the times I have practiced defenses against knife attacks. But as soon as the real blade came out and I did not know the intentions of my would-be attacker, everything went out the window.



The biggest problem I can see with what Emin is showing is that there is no control over the weapon at all. And, if you don't have control over it, then the other guy does. Add to that his habit of moving to the inside (where the weapon is strongest), which is also something I'd leave to a last resort tactic, and that's when you get cut. Bear in mind, I'm not advocating being defensive here, as that leads to being cut as well, but the flurries that Emin is showing would get him cut. A lot. Unless he was lucky enough to get a knockout straight away.

As you say, once a real blade is involved, everything goes out the window. I'd be willing to bet that once you saw the knife, your ability to consciously think through all the defences you have been taught suddenly became rather restricted. Emin's approach is to overwhelm, which can be effective if you get the other guy scared, but I'd still be rather unsure of it against a knife. The first thing that's going to happen if you get a knifeman scared is that they'll bring their knife up between their attacker (you, or whatever is making them scared) and themselves. So by coming around and not controlling the weapon, but trying to overwhelm, you are just letting them bring the knife back into play immediately. Not a good plan. And, for the record, Emin's young attacker is simply doing what many students do, being scared of his instructor, which is not giving the same result that a knifeman would give.

You also said that:


			
				MAist25 said:
			
		

> A friend of mine and martial arts practitioner of over 30 years, as well as a retired NYPD detective believes that when the human body is tired, scared, or injured, all fine motor skills go out the window. As martial artists we must focus on basic, gross motor skills to survive, especially when it comes to weapons. I tend to agree with what he says because of his personal experiences. All these fancy moves you see out there will never ever happen in a real scenario. You need to recognize the threat, and attack the threat until it is no longer able to hurt you. In the military we call it violence of action; if you are going to attack, you attack with everything you got and overwhelm your opponent so that it is physically impossible for him to have time to hit you back.



I agree completely. But, and here's the thing, what Emin is showing is very much a skilled, fine-motor responce. The targeting is very fine motor, and under adrenaline is highly likely to have little effect, especially not the effect that he is showing here. The problem is that his actions do give an ability to strike back... and that strike is with a blade.

So, to sum up, the disconnects with reality are:

Distancing - too far out for the attacker.
Psychological understanding - there is no demonstrated understanding of the attacker or the defenders psychological realities.
Speed/timing - he's racing a go-kart in a ferrari.
Tactical use of the weapon - his knifeman is, frankly, not acting like a knifeman.
Tactics for the defender - rely on his size, speed, better reach, and the fact that his student will stop when he starts attacking.
Tactics for the defender - a huge gap in understanding about grappling responces, particularly when it comes to control of the weapon.

and more.

As I said, Emin is very good at what he does, but as this was presented as a very realistic approach, it should be countered with the fact that it really isn't. At all.


----------



## MAist25

The first aspect of any knife defense is recognizing the threat. I hope we both agree on that. And unfortunately this is usually the hardest thing to do, even harder than defending from the actual attack. If you are able to recognize the threat you can usually find some way to avoid it. You are right, many knife attacks are from close range and occur in rapid, savage-like attacks sometimes even until the person is dead. But the setting of where the attack takes place affects the psychology of the attacker a lot as well. If you are out in the middle of a field then the attacker feels no pressure from the possibility of being seen. Here he can stab you as many times as he wants because nobody is there to see/hear what is happening. If you are in a more populated area however, the assailant is much more likely to use a minimal amount of cuts in order to lessen the chances of being seen and to also make time for a getaway. 

As for the aspect of distancing, it totally depends. Emin is facing attacks from far away. In my personal experience my would-be attacker came up very close. However, I was able to recognize the threat and CREATE distance between myself and the knife weilder. It was also apparent to me that my assailant was not experienced in knife fighting because of the fact that he showed me the blade. This is a common psychological attack used by thugs, but it is something that a trained martial artist can use to save his own life. A trained knifeman would NEVER show you his blade. He would walk close to you very naturally, concealing his weapon AND his intentions, and once he got close enough, do what he has to do. These are the attacks that are near-impossible to defend from simply from the fact that they are near-impossible to recognize!

As for the position of the knife during an attack, I think you are correct in that if you get your attacker scared then he will place the knife between himself and you. But, why would you try and scare somebody with a knife if you are weaponless? You should always try and make the person with the weapon feel in control because they are in control! However, I do believe that once that first strike comes in, that is your best chance for survival. As soon as that first strike comes in you need to block and counter and continue to counter until he physically cannot strike you again. Blocking the first strike is easy. Boxers never get hit with the first strike, MMA fighters never get hit with the first strike, and even when you spar I hope you dont get his with the first strike either. Blocking a first strike is pretty easy to do and that is why you need to capitalize on that opportunity. It is blocking the 3rd and 4th strikes that is extremely difficult to do and if you give your assailant the opportunity to deliver those 2nd, 3rd, 4th, strikes than you are a dead man. 

As for the speed, I have no arguments with you there. I agree with what you say and I see it all the time in demonstrations. The attacker attacks in a half-*** way at half speed for fear of making their instructor look like a fool if their techniques dont work. The attacker attacks at half speed and the defender goes all out. This is just one of those things that you need to stress in a realistic training environment, but unfortunately many schools do not understand this concept. There really isnt anything that can be done about that on an overall level. It is just something you need to do in your own school because you actually understand this concept.

You do say that what Emin shows here gives the knifeman time to strike back. This is something that I dont necessarily agree with nor necessarily disagree with. However, you must realize that the human arm does not control itself, the brain does. And if you attack a persons head with rapid strikes, the brain will make 1 of 2 choices: fight or flight. And this choice will usually be made because of the intentions of the attacker and the emotions of the attacker. In my case, it was some dumbass teenager in front of a 7-11. The kids intentions were not to kill me but to scare me. If I started pounding him in the head he would have gone into immediate flight mode, because in reality he wasnt psychologically wired to kill me. However, if you get somebody who is completely wired to kill you if you do block and strike than they would most likely go into fight mode and may actually be able to continue to try to attack you. But I believe that if you simply overwhelm the person with constant shots and get them moving back, and thus offbalanced, they would really have a difficult time getting an attack off.

I think that the point of controlling the weapon does become an issue because what does it mean to control the weapon? If you rapidly attack someone to the affect that their brains cannot process the information needed to strike you is that not considered controlling the weapon? Or do you literally need to be holding onto it? If you believe in physically controlling the arm which has the weapon than I think you would probably get yourself killed if this was your first resort in defending against a knife attack. If you block and counter until the person is offbalanced THEN you might have a chance to grab hold of the persons arm where you could possibly apply a joint lock or such. But it certainly is not going to happen as an initial defense. 

To be honest, a lot of what you are saying is really teaching me a lot and making me think.


----------



## MA-Caver

MAist25 said:


> You do say that what Emin shows here gives the knifeman time to strike back. This is something that I dont necessarily agree with nor necessarily disagree with. However, you must realize that the human arm does not control itself, the brain does. And if you attack a persons head with rapid strikes, the brain will make 1 of 2 choices: fight or flight. And this choice will usually be made because of the intentions of the attacker and the emotions of the attacker. In my case, it was some dumbass teenager in front of a 7-11. The kids intentions were not to kill me but to scare me. If I started pounding him in the head he would have gone into immediate flight mode, because in reality he wasnt psychologically wired to kill me. However, if you get somebody who is completely wired to kill you if you do block and strike than they would most likely go into fight mode and may actually be able to continue to try to attack you. But I believe that if you simply overwhelm the person with constant shots and get them moving back, and thus offbalanced, they would really have a difficult time getting an attack off.


 It is true that a good portion of people will try to flee if you start striking them. But if they're actually itching for a fight and are psyched up and ready to go then striking them could make them fight back harder. Gang members do NOT want to look cowardly in front of their peers and will continue a fight inspite of their own wounds/hurts. The concept of the "beat-ins" to be accepted into (most) gangs is the idea... will this person fight back? Cower and cringe, attempt to flee? Are you the badass that you think you are to join their gang? Lets find out. 
So striking back hard and fast had better put them down and out the first time around because they may get back up and come at you harder and more determined. Likewise as you're opening the can of whup-*** on them they'll defend... they have a knife in their hands and warding and blocking puts the knife in your fist/foot's path. 
An experience I had on the streets taught me this. A guy was opening proverbial can of whup *** on me, as I defended best as I could because the guy was going all out I managed to get my blade and started slashing at the incoming fists. The end of it resulted the guy having his knuckles torn open and from what I saw (attack was in daylight btw...something else to consider... not all (attacks) are in the darkest of nights), had slash marks on the back of his hands (probable tendon cuts?), to where he couldn't close his fists to strike anymore... the pain set in and he backed off and a couple of feints with my blade got him away with the obligatory verbal threats of "another time another day, watch your back, bla bla bla bla" (never saw that guy again). 
Had that guy a blade himself, I sincerely doubt that I'd be here today due to the ferocity of his attack on me; sudden, without warning without any pretense. I was foolishly caught off guard and just plain lucky that day... and yes, I knew the attacker and didn't perceive them as a threat because of their mannerisms and outward attitude. 




MAist25 said:


> I think that the point of controlling the weapon does become an issue because what does it mean to control the weapon? If you rapidly attack someone to the affect that their brains cannot process the information needed to strike you is that not considered controlling the weapon? Or do you literally need to be holding onto it? If you believe in physically controlling the arm which has the weapon than I think you would probably get yourself killed if this was your first resort in defending against a knife attack. If you block and counter until the person is off balanced THEN you might have a chance to grab hold of the persons arm where you could possibly apply a joint lock or such. But it certainly is not going to happen as an initial defense.
> 
> To be honest, a lot of what you are saying is really teaching me a lot and making me think.


 There are statements about grabbing and controlling the arm holding the blade. But as the Emin video stated, the attacker still has one other arm that is free. I've taught myself to toss my blade to my other hand quickly and without looking at it. Dangerous move to be sure but it's one that I practice a lot. Watch for that with anyone. Likewise watch for friends of the attacker as well.


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## MAist25

I completely agree that some people will certainly fight back. It is all about what is going on inside the persons head before he decides to attack. If he has it drilled in his brain that he wants to kill you and will stop at nothing to do it then yes, he will continue to fight back even as you strike him. This is when it might be a good time to try and gain physical control of the weapon. Even though he might try and strike you back, if you are relentlessly striking him it will most likely put him offbalance and in a position not optimal for returning a strike. This could allow you time to reach for and control the arm that is controlling the weapon. 

As for the fact of the assailant having another hand as Emin points out, this is one point I do not totally agree with him on. I think that Chris is spot on with what he said on this matter. The weapon is this guys power. He will not even think about using his second hand, but instead focus completely on keeping control of his knife.


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## Thesemindz

Unless he's actually trained to use a knife. Which we have to assume. A significant portion of weapon training at our school deals with using the other natural weapons while holding a tool in your hand. We specifically teach our students NOT to fixate on the weapon. To integrate the weapon in to their established combat techniques, not to replace them with it.

Assuming that your opponent is an idiot is a good way to get yourself killed. He is, after all, smart enough to pick up a weapon when he attacks someone.


-Rob


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## MAist25

^ Definitely a great point.


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## mook jong man

As I see it there are two main methods you can use , they both have their upsides and down sides.
I don't think one is superior to the other , they are just two different ways of getting the job done.

The first one is deflect / block and simultaneously shut the computer down with a strike then grab the knife arm this is favoured in Wing Chun and Krav , the downside to this , is your only using one arm to control his arm.
The upside is , if you cause enough damage with your first strike you disrupt the multiple stabbing , piston action / sewing machine effect by the attacker.

The other method I learned in FFS is to block first with what is called a universal shield , it's just basically a double armed cover , but it protects a wide protective area.

But from this cover you can quickly control the knife arm by going into a double underhook configuration or single underhook with wrist hold , it doesn't matter the knife arm is locked in tight and can't move , then from there various strikes are applied.

You could say this is block first , then capture the knife wielding arm with both your arms and then shut the computer down.
The downside is the attacker might not get hit straight away unless with an elbow or headbutt as you are moving in , but the upside is you have a lot more control of the knife arm , and as long as you can go straight from arm capture in to blasting his base out with multiple knee strikes then there is not much chance of him using his other hand to attack you with .

I practice both methods , but from a teaching point of view if you only had 1 hour to prepare someone I would teach the universal shield then arm capture .
The simultaneous counter attack used in the first method is effective but requires a lot more training.

But whichever method you use if you don't move in fast and aggressively and keep forward pressure on the knife arm then it is simply going to retract and continue on its merry way puncturing you full of holes.


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## Stealthy

In my limited experience once the person has started stabbing knife survival is composed of two parts.

Part one. Getting cut repeatedly while failing to grab and hold the knife hand.

Part two. Successfully grabbing and holding the knife hand and beating them with whatever you've got. (If the grip is lost then go back to part one).


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## MJS

I'm a bit short on time right now, but I'll comment on a few things. I'll comment on the Emin clip later, but here are some from a guy I mentioned earlier, Karl Tanswell.

[yt]-_ZO17yWi7I[/yt]

[yt]ZlXiSiX1tgg&feature=related[/yt]

Something else to keep in mind....many times, when we see knife defense being done, we see large blades such as we saw with Emin, as well as in the Tanswell clips.  Now, nothing wrong with this...hell, I have a few trainers such as we see in the Tanswell clip.  But, IMO, I think its a very good idea to train with something smaller, such as pocketknife size.  I have a few trainers this size.  I like working with them, because IMO, alot of the time, it seperates the fantasy from reality.  In other words, what you may be able to pull off, with a larger trainer, will go right out the window, when using a smaller blade.


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## Chris Parker

MAist25 said:


> The first aspect of any knife defense is recognizing the threat. I hope we both agree on that. And unfortunately this is usually the hardest thing to do, even harder than defending from the actual attack. If you are able to recognize the threat you can usually find some way to avoid it. You are right, many knife attacks are from close range and occur in rapid, savage-like attacks sometimes even until the person is dead. But the setting of where the attack takes place affects the psychology of the attacker a lot as well. If you are out in the middle of a field then the attacker feels no pressure from the possibility of being seen. Here he can stab you as many times as he wants because nobody is there to see/hear what is happening. If you are in a more populated area however, the assailant is much more likely to use a minimal amount of cuts in order to lessen the chances of being seen and to also make time for a getaway.



Yep, agreed that recognising the threat is the beginning, that's why awareness and avoidance are the first things taught. But the rest here, no. Knife assaults are fast, sudden, and violent. They occur in public with people around with no real qualms whatsoever, so that part can be discounted.

You know what, I'm going to put a clip up here. I'm going to preface it by saying it's a little sensationalist and propaganda-driven, but the footage is genuine, and the final message is right on the money (about knowing about the way an assault happens). While no blood is seen, the knife assaults are real, so discression to be used when viewing:






As you can see, the environment isn't really that much of a consideration here, with people being assaulted in front of witnesses quite happily.



MAist25 said:


> As for the aspect of distancing, it totally depends. Emin is facing attacks from far away. In my personal experience my would-be attacker came up very close. However, I was able to recognize the threat and CREATE distance between myself and the knife weilder. It was also apparent to me that my assailant was not experienced in knife fighting because of the fact that he showed me the blade. This is a common psychological attack used by thugs, but it is something that a trained martial artist can use to save his own life. A trained knifeman would NEVER show you his blade. He would walk close to you very naturally, concealing his weapon AND his intentions, and once he got close enough, do what he has to do. These are the attacks that are near-impossible to defend from simply from the fact that they are near-impossible to recognize!



I wouldn't necessarily say that someone showing you a blade means they aren't experienced with a blade, just that they are trying to scare money (or similar) out of you in this instance. Not saying that the guy was a stone cold killer, but recognising other reasons is important as well. What it does tell you, and what you can take with you, is that there is little reason to engage if there is no (immediate) threat to your life, so save yourself the potential injury and don't engage.

I would argue with your description of the more serious attacker as being a "trained" knifeman, as that's really not the case. What they are (in your description of the attacker there) is experienced, and committed to injury. Their "training" is street-level, brutal, effective, fast, and violent. But very removed from a "trained" action as might be expected from a martially trained person. And these types of attackers (the threatener in your story, the ambush assailant trained in a street-style, and a martial artist) are very different from each other. And the last one (the martial artist) is the one you will almost certainly never encounter.



MAist25 said:


> As for the position of the knife during an attack, I think you are correct in that if you get your attacker scared then he will place the knife between himself and you. But, why would you try and scare somebody with a knife if you are weaponless? You should always try and make the person with the weapon feel in control because they are in control! However, I do believe that once that first strike comes in, that is your best chance for survival. As soon as that first strike comes in you need to block and counter and continue to counter until he physically cannot strike you again. Blocking the first strike is easy. Boxers never get hit with the first strike, MMA fighters never get hit with the first strike, and even when you spar I hope you dont get his with the first strike either. Blocking a first strike is pretty easy to do and that is why you need to capitalize on that opportunity. It is blocking the 3rd and 4th strikes that is extremely difficult to do and if you give your assailant the opportunity to deliver those 2nd, 3rd, 4th, strikes than you are a dead man.



 Right. let's clear up a few ideas here. When I talk about "scaring" the attacker, what I'm talking about is hyping up their adrenaline with unexpected actions. Really, "fear" in this regard is high adrenaline with a negative emotional connotation (if the emotional connotation is positive, we call it "excitement"). So it's not a case of wanting to, or even trying to scare the attacker, more a recognition of what happens when you respond with an unexpected action which heightens their adrenaline levels.

In terms of making the person with the weapon feel like they are in control "because they are in control!" I don't agree with there. If it comes to physical action, and I leave them in control, with them armed with a knife, what do you think the result will be? 

Next, I feel a little reality may be in order in regards to "first strikes". People are hit with the first strike all the time. Constantly. In fact, many fights are incredibly one-sided, with only one person actually doing anything offensive (hitting). There are a wide range of reasons for this, but the most important one is that people don't expect to be assaulted, hit, or stabbed. So they aren't looking for that first hit (as a boxer is, an MMA athlete is, and you are in sparring), and, as a result, get hit by it. The idea of the first hit being "easy to block" is a falacy brought on by not understanding the difference between real violence and sporting systems/sparring. They really are almost nothing alike.



MAist25 said:


> As for the speed, I have no arguments with you there. I agree with what you say and I see it all the time in demonstrations. The attacker attacks in a half-*** way at half speed for fear of making their instructor look like a fool if their techniques dont work. The attacker attacks at half speed and the defender goes all out. This is just one of those things that you need to stress in a realistic training environment, but unfortunately many schools do not understand this concept. There really isnt anything that can be done about that on an overall level. It is just something you need to do in your own school because you actually understand this concept.



Ha, yeah. My guys get yelled at pretty quick if I see a Ferrari go against a Go-kart....



MAist25 said:


> You do say that what Emin shows here gives the knifeman time to strike back. This is something that I dont necessarily agree with nor necessarily disagree with. However, you must realize that the human arm does not control itself, the brain does. And if you attack a persons head with rapid strikes, the brain will make 1 of 2 choices: fight or flight. And this choice will usually be made because of the intentions of the attacker and the emotions of the attacker. In my case, it was some dumbass teenager in front of a 7-11. The kids intentions were not to kill me but to scare me. If I started pounding him in the head he would have gone into immediate flight mode, because in reality he wasnt psychologically wired to kill me. However, if you get somebody who is completely wired to kill you if you do block and strike than they would most likely go into fight mode and may actually be able to continue to try to attack you. But I believe that if you simply overwhelm the person with constant shots and get them moving back, and thus offbalanced, they would really have a difficult time getting an attack off.



Now we're getting into some interesting areas.... Agreed that the brain controls the arm, but my question to you is, which part of the brain? Here's a clue, it's not the part you affect by hitting the head, unless you manage to knock the other guy out.

Okay, next let's deal with "Fight or Flight", as most don't really know what goes on in this process. "Fight or Flight" is a basic, primitive survival responce, and is there purely as an automatic, hardwired part of what has allowed human beings to survive for hundreds of thousands of years. It is not something that there is real control over, and which aspect gets triggered is not due to how someone's emotional state is. In fact, there are two dominant factors in this responce: Adrenaline, and Distance.

In short, if you have a sudden, massive adrenaline surge, and the cause of it is a distance from you, the immediate, and uncontrolable survival instinct will be to "flight". However, if you experience a sudden, massive adrenaline surge, and the cause of it is close, the overwhelming instinct is to "fight" (interestingly, if there is nothing in the unconscious that is felt, or believed to be "strong" when it comes to fighting, then that's where you get the third option, "freeze"). So the reality is that if you had started hitting this kid, he would have been unconsciously, instinctively, naturally driven by his generations old survival-driven primal brain patterns to fight. And he has a knife, something that is felt and believed to be pretty damn powerful. His initial desire to not injure you really doesn't come into it, there are plenty of cases (countless, really) where people with no intention to do harm use a weapon and injure or kill. They are crimes of passion, or put down as 'accidents', or simply recounted later as "I didn't mean to do it! I didn't mean to shoot!" etc. So why do they if they had no intention? Simple.

They were given an adrenal surge and were close, so they instinctively went to the most powerful thing they could, and used it. It may have been a use out of fear, or anger, or anything similar, but that doesn't matter. Kicking off the adrenaline by attacking will put them in a "fight" mode. So if you kick off their "fight" responce without controlling the weapon, you may as well have just stabbed or cut yourself, frankly. You try to overwhelm them, and they will employ their blade, even if just to get you back.



MAist25 said:


> I think that the point of controlling the weapon does become an issue because what does it mean to control the weapon? If you rapidly attack someone to the affect that their brains cannot process the information needed to strike you is that not considered controlling the weapon? Or do you literally need to be holding onto it? If you believe in physically controlling the arm which has the weapon than I think you would probably get yourself killed if this was your first resort in defending against a knife attack. If you block and counter until the person is offbalanced THEN you might have a chance to grab hold of the persons arm where you could possibly apply a joint lock or such. But it certainly is not going to happen as an initial defense.



 Yes, control of the weapon is control of the weapon (physically). Hitting the head, unless getting a knockout straight away, just isn't going to do what you think it will here. This is where you will get killed, because you have just given them a bigger dump of adrenaline (making the faster, stronger, feel less pain), allowed them to keep control and use of their weapon, and, if you've knocked them back a little bit (quite likely) given them distance to launch a very fast, and powerful attack. 

Here's another thing to understand, though. The natural, instinctive responce to a sudden fast action towards you is to grab at it (in order to control it, both physically and psychologically). Going against that is actually going against your instinct. And, honestly, grabbing it is a hell of a lot safer than hitting first, and then trying to catch it. MJS's clips are good examples of that, by the way.



MAist25 said:


> To be honest, a lot of what you are saying is really teaching me a lot and making me think.



Glad you're getting some value out of these! I do so enjoy intelligent conversation.



MJS said:


> I'm a bit short on time right now, but I'll comment on a few things. I'll comment on the Emin clip later, but here are some from a guy I mentioned earlier, Karl Tanswell.
> 
> [yt]-_ZO17yWi7I[/yt]
> 
> [yt]ZlXiSiX1tgg&feature=related[/yt]
> 
> Something else to keep in mind....many times, when we see knife defense being done, we see large blades such as we saw with Emin, as well as in the Tanswell clips. Now, nothing wrong with this...hell, I have a few trainers such as we see in the Tanswell clip. But, IMO, I think its a very good idea to train with something smaller, such as pocketknife size. I have a few trainers this size. I like working with them, because IMO, alot of the time, it seperates the fantasy from reality. In other words, what you may be able to pull off, with a larger trainer, will go right out the window, when using a smaller blade.



Hey Mike,

Yeah, we use a much smaller blade ourselves, as folders are much more common. And these clips are much closer to what I have been talking about.


----------



## MJS

The Emin clip ( I didn't watch the entire thing) from what I saw, wasn't all that bad, but I do agree with alot of what Chris said.  Anything can be made to look bad, and in this case, we see that, with Emin basically setting the technique up to fail.  He talks about the things you shouldnt do, because it can be countered.  Well, of course he's countering it, if he's telling the guy to do something specific.  

Chris said:

"The next gap in reality is in the attacks and defences, in terms of tactics. The attacks are from an unrealistic distance (the primary tactic for a knife assault is an ambush, close range assassination-style assault, not a lunging attack from a few metres away), fairly simple, telegraphed, and single attacks. Any cursory research into knife assaults show that this is far from the reality, and again is there to help Emin look good. His movements are tight, minimalist, skillful, explosive, relaxed, and fast. However, they are being applied against slower, bigger actions, commited to a single attack. This is further highlighted when Emin shows knife against stick, and asks for it to be done slowly, he regularly speeds up his responce to the slower attacks. Like I tell my guys, it's not really winning a race if you're in a Ferrari and the other guy is driving a go kart."

I agree with this.  A prison style attack is a good example.  But OTOH, a knife could be pulled during a verbal confrontation, thus leading to the lunging attack, vs. the assassination style that we'd see in a prison.  

When he picked up the stick...well, thats certainly a good equalizer, something that I mentioned earlier.  But, I'd still rather go for the control of the weapon.  Parrying, deflecting, etc, is not a bad option, but IMO, its not really doing anything to eliminate the threat.  The badguy still has the blade.  He also mentions the BG's other hand.  Yes, this is something that is important to take into consideration.  Of course, as we saw in the clips that I linked, if you're moving the guy around, its going to be hard for him to get a serious hit in, and if he does hit you, there's probably not going to be much steam behind it.


----------



## Stealthy

Chris Parker said:


> .....*without controlling the weapon, you may as well have just stabbed or cut yourself, frankly.*



QFT

A recurring theme I see watching real knife assault videos is the repetitive nature of the attacks. Most defenders even after being stabbed multiple times still vainly rely on the *hope* that the attacker will stop. In most cases it is not over until they take control of the weapon, succumb to the wounds or get outside help.

I think one of the problems many martial artist have with understanding knife survival is the idea that skill can overcome speed and power. While this may hold true in an unarmed confrontation, when facing a stronger and faster opponent who is also wielding a knife skill alone is not enough.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and develop speed, grip strength and power to go along with all the fancy moves.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

johnjones33 said:


> What is your opinion on teaching unarmed self defense against a knife? do you think to do so without informing students of the risks involved is negligent? the reason i ask is i have had people come on my seminars who seem to think that it is easy to disarm someone with a knife without getting injured and are actually hoping to be confronted by an assailant with a knife so they can demonstrate their amazing techniques.
> 
> i pray this never happens for their sake.
> 
> i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do. i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one. A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.
> 
> many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent. thoughts?



I'm a Boatman edged weapon defense instructor.  It is based on gross motor skills and has been street-proven to be brutally effective.  I do not teach the 'in a knife fight your going to get cut' routine.  I believe that is negative training.  Instead I explain that yes, the possibility is there but regardless of whether you are or aren't you continue to defend yourself until the threat has ceased or you've escaped.  

I think most edged weapon defenses are pure crap and give people a very false sense of security.  Many require refined motor skills that won't be useable under duress.  Bottom line is that fancy/refined = crap and brutal/simple = effective.  Also the main mistake of edged weapon defense (or any defense) is the student stopping when they've failed in practice.  They don't pull off the defense, stop and then reset so they can 'try it again'.  That is crappy training.  If you fail to make a proper defense you immediately go into something else until you've succeeded.  There are no 'do-overs' in the street.  The mission is survival and the method is whatever it takes to accomplish the mission.  

Also, students need to know their options in an altercation.  Do they immediately go into the movement?  Or do they scan their surroundings for cover, concealment and/or improvised weapons?  Edged weapon defense can be as easy as stepping through a door and locking it.  Or putting something big (like a car, a wall etc) between you.  Or creating distance that the attacker can't close to effective range.  

Things to think about.


----------



## Stealthy

Kong Soo Do said:


> ...putting something big (like a car, a wall etc) between you.  Or creating distance that the attacker can't close to effective range.



That's the gold right there if you ask me, I've used all of these to great effect. Furniture is equally as awesome, people tend to back off if an attack means climbing over a table or sofa.

As for creating distance, two years ago I had a gang of 5 guys(all in their twenties) try and ambush me. There was no single trigger to what was going on but rather a few minor inconsistencies. One guy was being friendly(for no reason) while another was incapable of masking his hatred, while pondering the paradox and getting concerned about how close they were(right in my face) another two guys disappeared out of my peripheral vision, one other side and both moving behind me, what really spooked me about it was the syncronicity with which they moved as in both guys simultaneously went out of view traveling at the same speed and the same distance away...Put all of this together and it equals Danger!!!

The instant the red flag went up I shot straight back faster than the guys behind me had time to fully close in(though I did brush shoulders with both of them on the way), the fellow in front had already thrown a kick at this time but I didn't even know until it hit my trailing leg(with no effect since my weight had already left it). Within a second I was five steps away staring them down and they decided I wasn't worth the hassle so they left. A few minutes later a guy wandered past me with blood pouring from every part of his body....unlucky for him but good thing it wasn't me.

Whether one of them had a knife or not I could not say but the point is a little bit of distance and removing the element of surprise can be enough to send even such a large group looking elsewhere.


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## jasonb

A master of the knife gives his opinion on this question.


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## billc

I have heard countless times the warning "you are going to get cut."  I have to say that instructors who use that phrase need to amp it up more.  In a beginners mind, they think cutting themselves when they are cleaning vegetables, and don't realize what "getting cut," in a real situation implies.  I once suggested to a friend who was an aikido instructor that he should tell his students when they face a knife armed attacker that they may be "permanently maimed or disfigured," in an attack.  I would also send them to photos of people who have survived knife attacks in the real world.  I think those two things might get their mind right about how effective a weapon a knife really is.  You could also point them to all the stories of untrained, violent criminals killing people with knives.  That might also increase their understanding of why they need to run, rather than fight against a knife.


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## Carol

billcihak said:


> I have heard countless times the warning "you are going to get cut."  I have to say that instructors who use that phrase need to amp it up more.  In a beginners mind, they think cutting themselves when they are cleaning vegetables, and don't realize what "getting cut," in a real situation implies.  I once suggested to a friend who was an aikido instructor that he should tell his students when they face a knife armed attacker that they may be "permanently maimed or disfigured," in an attack.  I would also send them to photos of people who have survived knife attacks in the real world.  I think those two things might get their mind right about how effective a weapon a knife really is.  You could also point them to all the stories of untrained, violent criminals killing people with knives.  That might also increase their understanding of why they need to run, rather than fight against a knife.



Something that really stuck with me was watching Survivng Edged Weapons and seeing the pathology photos of knife wounds.  Its humbling, especially seeing the smaller stab wounds.  I'm sure there are other such photos online for someone motivated to search.  Gruesome as it is, that gave me a new level of respect for the knife, and how important it is to block that fist punch away because you don't know if it contains a knife


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## Chris Parker

Another good example, particularly if you have any "squeamish" students, who wouldn't handle the actual images and footage is Michael Janich's "Pork Man". It's a good, immediate example of exactly what a knife can do, through clothing or not, even with a very small blade.

While this clip does provide some graphic imagery, it also gives you an example of making your own "Pork Man" if you want to do similar demonstrations for your class. Other versions that Michael does include wrapping the "Pork Man" in denim (simulating jeans for a leg cut), or other clothing, as well as adding to the amount of meat to simulate larger body parts, such as legs, and mounting it vertically rather than horizontally.


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## lklawson

Make them do the cutting themselves.

Get some turkeys, racks of pork, etc.  Hang them from a tree or mount them on a stand, and do the cutting yourself.  It seems to have a lot more impact than just looking at pics.  Then you can pass some pics and throw in a speech of "imagine if this were your arm."

If you do it right, you can recover the cut up meat and do a BBQ afterward.


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## chinto

MJS said:


> Well, IMHO, when it comes to the knife, there is alot of crap out there.  Sure, alot of stuff will work when the 'attacker' is compliant, but try the same stuff on a resisting opponent, and you'll likely end up dead.  Yes, of course one should expect to get cut.  As for what to do when faced with a blade...well, of course, if you can get the hell out of the situation, do so.  If not, I'd look for an equalizer....anything that I can grab and use, I'll do it.  I look at it like this...the guy already upped the odds by using a knife, so picking up a chair is fine in my eyes.  If something isn't available, and you must go empty hand, my thoughts are K.I.S.S....anything else, as I said, is asking for trouble.  Control first, and then work for a disarm, all the while using your free limbs to punish the guy.



I basically agree, the one thing I would add is that you better get " Mad Dog Mean" and be looking to KILL! you must do Maximum Damage as quickly as you can while controlling the weapon!  He has initiated Deadly force against you, and you must assume he will kill you if he can. the fight will be over in seconds and you want to be alive and as uninjured  as possible, their survival is irreverent!


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## TKD_SBK

The problem with unarmed vs. knife defense training is that it's boring. I used to train weapons once a week as part of a Jiu-Jitsu program. During sparring, I would slash and stab the instructor (cop, 2nd dan) many, many times with a rubber knife before he's able to grab and disarm me. And I wasn't very good with my boxing footwork as I am now. When it was my turn, I can't get him unless he slows it down significantly and just eventually gives me his hand with the knife so I can do the move that he just taught beforehand. Yea, practice makes perfect, but it was just too boring.

MMA works so well nowadays is because there's actual competition that makes it fun and rewarding. Punching and kicking people in the head and KO'ing them during hard sparring is fun. You move up the pecking order of your gym, scare people, earn their respect, etc. Winning trophies, belts...maybe go Pro. Everybody looks up to you in the dojo, etc.  You can't get this from play fighting vs. rubber knives, so most people won't become even close to being good enough at disarming someone with a knife in real life. 

My knife defense = punching them in the face until they get KTFO.  This is what I already enthusiastically train at, punching people. Why not do what I'm already good at? Someone stunned or wobbling towards KO-city is not going to be stabbing much.


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## frank raud

TKD_SBK said:


> The problem with unarmed vs. knife defense training is that it's boring. I used to train weapons once a week as part of a Jiu-Jitsu program. During sparring, I would slash and stab the instructor (cop, 2nd dan) many, many times with a rubber knife before he's able to grab and disarm me. And I wasn't very good with my boxing footwork as I am now. When it was my turn, I can't get him unless he slows it down significantly and just eventually gives me his hand with the knife so I can do the move that he just taught beforehand. Yea, practice makes perfect, but it was just too boring.
> 
> MMA works so well nowadays is because there's actual competition that makes it fun and rewarding. Punching and kicking people in the head and KO'ing them during hard sparring is fun. You move up the pecking order of your gym, scare people, earn their respect, etc. Winning trophies, belts...maybe go Pro. Everybody looks up to you in the dojo, etc.  You can't get this from play fighting vs. rubber knives, so most people won't become even close to being good enough at disarming someone with a knife in real life.
> 
> My knife defense = punching them in the face until they get KTFO.  This is what I already enthusiastically train at, punching people. Why not do what I'm already good at? Someone stunned or wobbling towards KO-city is not going to be stabbing much.



I think a large part of the problem is using a rubber knife as a substitute for a knife. It wont hurt you if you get slashed or stabbed, so there is no great incentive to treat it seriously. Watch the difference when you show somebody a technique with a rubber knife, then when they get comfortable, switch to a wood or aluminum/metal trainer. They will be a lot more focused with the metal trainer.

If your idea of knife defense is you can punch someone in the head while they are stabbing or slashing at you, be prepared for a surprise. If you dont control the knife hand before you start punching their lights out, whats to stop the blade from slashing/stabbing you anyways? There are several MMA based systems that work in weapons, not dedicated a separate night to weapons and calling themselves "integrated"


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## Josh Oakley

That is why i prefer steel blanks, or better yet, the shock knife.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## TKD_SBK

frank raud said:


> I think a large part of the problem is using a rubber knife as a substitute for a knife. It wont hurt you if you get slashed or stabbed, so there is no great incentive to treat it seriously. Watch the difference when you show somebody a technique with a rubber knife, then when they get comfortable, switch to a wood or aluminum/metal trainer. They will be a lot more focused with the metal trainer.



Dude, this rubber knife hurts. It's hard, solid rubber. I'm actually trying to not stabbing him too hard, let alone with full force. I can easily poke out his eyeball with it at 20% power if I'm not to careful. We are treating the knife like it's real. This is why I can cut the instructor multiple times, because he's trying not to get slashed. If he broke the illusion that it's a rubber knife, then he'd just charge right in without any worries and subdue me.



> If your idea of knife defense is you can punch someone in the head while they are stabbing or slashing at you, be prepared for a surprise. If you dont control the knife hand before you start punching their lights out, whats to stop the blade from slashing/stabbing you anyways? There are several MMA based systems that work in weapons, not dedicated a separate night to weapons and calling themselves "integrated"



If your idea of knife defense is to control the knife hand, be prepared for a surprise. If you don't punch them in the face to KO them, whats to stop the blade from slashing/stabbing you anyways?

See the point here? You can fail at grabbing and controlling their knife hand just the same as I can fail catching them in the KO zone with my fist and we both get stabbed. You chose to go for their fast moving hand holding the knife while I chose to punch them repeatedly in their slow to non-moving face.

So from my standpoint, should I train at knife defense which I find awfully boring and would have to start from near the beginning....including constant, dedicated training to become proficient at it in order to be worth something in a real knife attack? Or should I do what I'm already good at? Which is to punch my attacker in 'da face, which I greatly enjoy training at?  About 10-12 hours religiously, every week including hard sparring for KO's and ring fights....therefore, I'm confident in my striking skills already and have tested it out quite often by knocking down or out, other trained fighters. 

And another point being, I have tested out my striking abilities. While rarely have many experts really tested out their skills against a knife wielder in  real life or death situations. Maybe some have, but how many times?  1?  2?  3?   While I've been in thousands of 2-3 minute rounds trying to KO my opponent and vice versa.


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## frank raud

How many of those thousands of rounds have been against someone with a knife?


----------



## frank raud

TKD_SBK said:


> So from my standpoint, should I train at knife defense which I find awfully boring and would have to start from near the beginning....including constant, dedicated training to become proficient at it in order to be worth something in a real knife attack? Or should I do what I'm already good at? Which is to punch my attacker in 'da face, which I greatly enjoy training at?  About 10-12 hours religiously, every week including hard sparring for KO's and ring fights....therefore, I'm confident in my striking skills already and have tested it out quite often by knocking down or out, other trained fighters.
> 
> And another point being, I have tested out my striking abilities. While rarely have many experts really tested out their skills against a knife wielder in  real life or death situations. Maybe some have, but how many times?  1?  2?  3?   While I've been in thousands of 2-3 minute rounds trying to KO my opponent and vice versa.



So, part of your training is for ring fights, that's great, it takes a lot of guts to step into the ring. What's your knockout record? What's your knockout record before the other guy has landed a punch?

Your screen name refers to TKD, but you reference using your hands a lot. Have you switched to another art, boxing perhaps?

As I am an old, decripit guy with way more expereince in jiu jitsu and judo than boxing, would you be confident to step into a ring, bareknuckle, you with just your fists and me armed with pushdaggers? You obviously have way more experience than me in the ring arts. I would concede to not attempt headshots, only to the body. You will attempt to knock me out,I will attempt to gut you. Seem reasonable? Like your chances? Now imagine if you didn't know the other guy had a knife.

A good friend of mine, with ring proven ability to knock people out with all 4 limbs(having done it 60 + times)over his professional career, does additional training for self defense (including knife and weapon defense) because it a different reality. In fact, when he was a professional fighter he was only a blue belt, after he retired from the ring, he continued his training and got his black belt. His name is Jean-Yves Theriault, you may have heard of him.


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## TKD_SBK

frank raud said:


> How many of those thousands of rounds have been against someone with a knife?



Bro, should read more carefully to understand what I said. The context of my comment was that I've already been diligently and continually testing my striking skills, not only against pads and bags but against equally trained opponents who are also trying to KO me in thousands of rounds throughout the years. Therefore, my skills for punching someone in the face far exceeds my skills of grabbing some guy's hand that's wielding a knife....although my wristlocks and throws are decent as I have about 1 years worth of traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and I'm a blue belt in BJJ (with a bunch of silver medals when I competed)....not bragging, just to qualify myself as someone who can, mix it up when it comes to standup grabby-time. 

And the same question can be asked of yourself. How many times have you successfully disarmed someone with a knife in your lifetime so far? I bet it's 0-2.


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## frank raud

TKD_SBK said:


> Bro, should read more carefully to understand what I said. The context of my comment was that I've already been diligently and continually testing my striking skills, not only against pads and bags but against equally trained opponents who are also trying to KO me in thousands of rounds throughout the years. Therefore, my skills for punching someone in the face far exceeds my skills of grabbing some guy's hand that's wielding a knife....although my wristlocks and throws are decent as I have about 1 years worth of traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and I'm a blue belt in BJJ (with a bunch of silver medals when I competed)....not bragging, just to qualify myself as someone who can, mix it up when it comes to standup grabby-time.
> 
> And the same question can be asked of yourself. How many times have you successfully disarmed someone with a knife in your lifetime so far? I bet it's 0-2.[/QUOTE
> 
> No problems with my reading comprehension. You are apparently good to excellent at striking someone, including others who are trying to do the same. But the subtext is you havent the same level(or apparently any, as you avoid the question) of experience sparring against a knife, which somehow makes you an
> authority on knife defensee . Please correct me if I'm not understanding what it is you are saying.
> 
> I have successfully disarmed someone of a knife once. It wasn't glamorous, it sure wasn't pretty and it largely involved dumping him into a pond.


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## TKD_SBK

frank raud said:


> So, part of your training is for ring fights, that's great, it takes a lot of guts to step into the ring. What's your knockout record? What's your knockout record before the other guy has landed a punch?



In the ring, I'm fighting against equally trained opponents with a ref to officially start the round. In the streets, it's usually going to be against some untrained bozo who can't fight nor know what to do. Obviously, his having a knife helps him significantly. I would probably back out, apologize, or w/e. I might even turn and run.

But if I'm cornered, in prison, too pissed off, or w/e.....then I'm gonna suckerpunch his *** as soon as I see him reaching for something or the actual knife. If I don't KO him, I'll at least stun him and follow up with more punches. Someone wobbling on queer street is not going to be doing much stabbing. Especially someone who's not a trained fighter. 



> Your screen name refers to TKD, but you reference using your hands a lot. Have you switched to another art, boxing perhaps?



It's a secret.



> As I am an old, decripit guy with way more expereince in jiu jitsu and judo than boxing, would you be confident to step into a ring, bareknuckle, you with just your fists and me armed with pushdaggers? You obviously have way more experience than me in the ring arts. I would concede to not attempt headshots, only to the body. You will attempt to knock me out,I will attempt to gut you. Seem reasonable? Like your chances? Now imagine if you didn't know the other guy had a knife.



OK. Let's do this. Can you come to Northern Virginia, 22041?



> A good friend of mine, with ring proven ability to knock people out with all 4 limbs(having done it 60 + times)over his professional career, does additional training for self defense (including knife and weapon defense) because it a different reality. In fact, when he was a professional fighter he was only a blue belt, after he retired from the ring, he continued his training and got his black belt. His name is Jean-Yves Theriault, you may have heard of him.



That's awesome, he's a Black guy right? Name sounds familiar. And maybe he's doing knife & weapon defense for more money/niche, w/e. Although, I'd probably not go to him for such because that's not even his specialty. Most so-called experts haven't even been in real hand vs. knife situations. If they have, I'd like to see their cut scars to prove it.


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## TKD_SBK

frank raud said:


> TKD_SBK said:
> 
> 
> 
> No problems with my reading comprehension. You are apparently good to excellent at striking someone, including others who are trying to do the same. But the subtext is you havent the same level(or apparently any, as you avoid the question) of experience sparring against a knife, which somehow makes you an
> authority on knife defensee . Please correct me if I'm not understanding what it is you are saying.
> 
> I have successfully disarmed someone of a knife once. It wasn't glamorous, it sure wasn't pretty and it largely involved dumping him into a pond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My bad, I thought I answered it. But my number is ZERO. I've never went up against anyone who pulled a knife on me.  I always carry a gun wherever it's legal. I'm one of those people who has a gun in the bathroom b/c I don't want to get surprised while taking a dump. I answer the door with a gun. I water my garden with a gun. I just feel real naked w/o it. And my backup is a knife. It's sucks while jogging though, as it feels like a ton after 4 miles.
> 
> And I was pretty close at guessing your number being 0-2. But my point was, I have trained such knife defense and found it way too boring. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it's riskier FOR ME, PERSONALLy, than to just try to punch his lights out. I don't want to spend thousands of hours trying to grab at a rubber knife. I'd rather spend my time training to strike better, spar hard and compete more. Then if the time comes, where I'm up against a knife and I haven't shot the fcker yet....or if I couldn't have my gun in that location, I'll pull out my own legal, 3" folding knife and try to back out of the fight.  If no gun, no knife and must fight...then punching the face would be my choice. Yes, it's a risk. But so is trying to Ninja grab his knife hand.
> 
> I'm up for some friendly sparring if you'd like. Me with a rubber knife smeared with red paint and you try to disarm me with your techniques while I try to stab and slash you. I bet my hand speed and footwork can make plenty of contact. What area are you in? Make a believer out of me.
Click to expand...


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## rickster

MA-Caver said:


> From the comments of the (above) video.
> Go ahead try it... and of course... *be realistic.   *Personally, I'd rather use a red sharpie... the marks stay longer and can't be washed off easily... kinda like an actual knife wound... permanent.


Dang. We have use a red sharpie and old clothes for knife defense workouts over "eons" ago.

It started when one of my teachers saw I and a few students, before class, trying to mark each other with regular ball-point pens. He had noticed, we tried every evasive contorting body manner and blocking to avoid from getting "inked" (This was about 40+ years ago when i was 10-12 tears old). A childish game turned into a knife evading/parrying practice

I even thought of making a defense knife with a built in ink-pad acting as a blade to make the appearance more menacing than a pen


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## K-man

Chris Parker said:


> Perhaps another member here may give more of an "outsider's" point of view as to how we do things, as they attended a class of me teaching this subject (amongst one or two others) a few months ago, but I'll leave it to them if they wish.


Sorry Chris, I missed this thread when it first started and it had obviously submerged while I was away.   

There is a big difference in the things that you can teach at a seminar and the things you can teach in a regular class.  At Chris' seminar the emphasis was on 'get away', and obviously that is the primary advice we all should give.  Because in a seminar we always try to give people something of value to 'take away', we tend to teach a specific defence against a specific attack. Of necessity, in a seminar situation the attacks are not normally realistic because we are trying to teach someone a technique they possibly haven't seen or tried before.  So, in Chris' seminar we tried various defences that I honestly can't remember, but as practical self defence they were sound.  

The reason I can't remember the moves Chris taught is that my teaching style is slightly different. I teach principle based self defence.  Every attack will be slightly different so for me to teach a specific defence might not always be the right defence to use. There is likely to be slight confusion in a defender's mind if they need to, one, identify the attack and two, determine the most suitable defence.  So I don't expect any of my guys to use the same defence twice because they have never learnt a specific combination.  I teach a number of traps, locks, holds and disarms. I teach moving off the line of attack, protect the vital areas and I teach all the offensive moves like knees, elbows punches etc.

I don't teach any defense that catches the knife hand as number one objective.  Sometimes the hand will be caught but that is a bonus.  I teach deflection and never to stop the attack and I teach that, one way or the other, we must control the hand that has the knife. The deflections I like are based on reflex action that doesn't required fine skills.

So the attacker attacks, the student gets off the line and deflects the strike. Most times this ends up with the arm being restrained somehow.  Then the student uses whatever strike to any available target to try to incapacitate.  Then, and only then do they turn their attention back to the knife. They will use an appropriate lock or hold and remove the weapon. Because, through this process, relative body positions will change according to circumstance, the choice of technique will vary from one attack to the next.

Now, once again, I am trying to remember what Chris taught regarding getting the attacker to release he weapon.  I have the feeling it may have been to hit the knife hand to get the release.  I prefer to strip the knife and keep it. Two reasons for that. Firstly it gives me a weapon and secondly, my attacker or his mates are less likely to get the weapon back to use against me.

WRT the video of Emin Boztepe. I actually thought it was better than most I have watched. Sure it is greater distance than the real situation and it doesn't have the reality of multiple feints and stabs but if we accept it for what it is, then the principles aren't too bad.  So the first 90 secs of that video is sound advice. A lot of what is commonly taught is covered in the first 60 seconds and dismissed. Around the 1.50 mark Emin is deflecting the arm to be able to get in and hit or kick. He is not focussing on the knife, he is trying to incapacitate the attacker.  But what I really like is the bit with the stick. He shows that you can use a stick to nullify the knife, but he also demonstrates that you really need to know how to use the stick to avoid being killed. Unfortunately, a lot of people with a stick would think they can defend against a knife. Reality suggests otherwise.      :asian:


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## rickster

Stealthy said:


> In my limited experience once the person has started stabbing knife survival is composed of two parts.
> 
> Part one. Getting cut repeatedly while failing to grab and hold the knife hand.
> 
> Part two. Successfully grabbing and holding the knife hand and beating them with whatever you've got. (If the grip is lost then go back to part one).



You forgot;

Part Three.
The Intimidation, The Fear, The Pain, and The Shock of Blood/Blood Loss/Bleeding

Part Four: Nothing goes according to Part 1-3 or not goes "as planned"


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## frank raud

TKD_SBK said:


> frank raud said:
> 
> 
> 
> My bad, I thought I answered it. But my number is ZERO. I've never went up against anyone who pulled a knife on me.  I always carry a gun wherever it's legal. I'm one of those people who has a gun in the bathroom b/c I don't want to get surprised while taking a dump. I answer the door with a gun. I water my garden with a gun. I just feel real naked w/o it. And my backup is a knife. It's sucks while jogging though, as it feels like a ton after 4 miles.
> 
> And I was pretty close at guessing your number being 0-2. But my point was, I have trained such knife defense and found it way too boring. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it's riskier FOR ME, PERSONALLy, than to just try to punch his lights out. I don't want to spend thousands of hours trying to grab at a rubber knife. I'd rather spend my time training to strike better, spar hard and compete more. Then if the time comes, where I'm up against a knife and I haven't shot the fcker yet....or if I couldn't have my gun in that location, I'll pull out my own legal, 3" folding knife and try to back out of the fight.  If no gun, no knife and must fight...then punching the face would be my choice. Yes, it's a risk. But so is trying to Ninja grab his knife hand.
> 
> I'm up for some friendly sparring if you'd like. Me with a rubber knife smeared with red paint and you try to disarm me with your techniques while I try to stab and slash you. I bet my hand speed and footwork can make plenty of contact. What area are you in? Make a believer out of me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, in those thousands of rounds of sparring without an opponent with a knife, you have figured out the best knife defense for you? Awesome,very impressive. Without any actual practice or experience, you are capable of doing what multiple blade based arts cant do, successfully defend yourself(at least in theory) against a knife without making any attempt to control the knife. By the way, knife defense does not have to involve grabbing the hand. You are so confident in your abilities that rather than agree to my admittedly extreme scenario, you suggest that we spar with you having a knife, and me defending? Can you please explain how this will demonstrate the effectiveness of your advocated defense? Maybe I'm missing something.
> 
> I'm in Canada, come on up. Beer is cold, women hot and the exchange rate is pretty even these days.
Click to expand...


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## Josh Oakley

TKD_SBK said:


> In the ring, I'm fighting against equally trained opponents with a ref to officially start the round. In the streets, it's usually going to be against some untrained bozo who can't fight nor know what to do.



That's a dangerous assumption to make. Just because they don't have martial arts training doesn't mean they can't fight or know what to do. 

A lot of kids these days that I have seen will fight each other out of boredom just waiting at the bus stop, and you would be surprised how well some of these kids can scrap. I always train under the assumption that the guy is stronger, faster, and at least as skilled as me. Because then it makes me a better fighter. It makes me think about the psychology of the fight. It makes me find weak spots that much quicker, because I HAVE to.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## rickster

Josh Oakley said:


> That's a dangerous assumption to make. Just because they don't have martial arts training doesn't mean they can't fight or know what to do.
> 
> A lot of kids these days that I have seen will fight each other out of boredom just waiting at the bus stop, and you would be surprised how well some of these kids can scrap. I always train under the assumption that the guy is stronger, faster, and at least as skilled as me. Because then it makes me a better fighter. It makes me think about the psychology of the fight. It makes me find weak spots that much quicker, because I HAVE to.


A teen with a knife is as dangerous like a baby rattlesnake, if not worse.

A baby rattlesnake is more deadly than its adults.....do you know why?


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## szorn

I realize that this is an old thread but thought I would add my thoughts...

First off there is a difference between knife defense and knife disarms. I personally teach students / clients how to protect themselves from weapon assaults. I do not teach them classic disarms. The reason is simple, the knife is an extension of the attacker's intent. They want to harm us and the knife is just the tool to do so. If we focus on attempting to "disarm" the knife we are fixating on the weapon and doing little to slow or stop the actual threat, the person holding the knife. Instead of fixating on the weapon, it's better to use simple but savage skills to immediately slow or stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Now, with that said it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the essentials of "disarming" as this can come into play at some point after we have diminished the attacker's ability to continue his assault. Now, let me back track just a little...

The best technique for dealing with a weapon-wielding attacker is to simply run away. If escape is an option it should always be taken. If escape is not an option we should attempt to use environmental objects and improvised weapons to balance out the equation. Empty-hand skills should only be used as a last-ditch effort when no other options exist. Unlike what is ofetn taught in martial arts or seen in the movies, dealing with knife attacks is fast, brutal, and generally results in serious injury. It's not something that should be taken lightly.


Steve


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## rickster

szorn said:


> I realize that this is an old thread but thought I would add my thoughts...
> 
> First off there is a difference between knife defense and knife disarms. I personally teach students / clients how to protect themselves from weapon assaults. I do not teach them classic disarms. The reason is simple, the knife is an extension of the attacker's intent. They want to harm us and the knife is just the tool to do so. If we focus on attempting to "disarm" the knife we are fixating on the weapon and doing little to slow or stop the actual threat, the person holding the knife. Instead of fixating on the weapon, it's better to use simple but savage skills to immediately slow or stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Now, with that said it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the essentials of "disarming" as this can come into play at some point after we have diminished the attacker's ability to continue his assault. Now, let me back track just a little...
> 
> The best technique for dealing with a weapon-wielding attacker is to simply run away. If escape is an option it should always be taken. If escape is not an option we should attempt to use environmental objects and improvised weapons to balance out the equation. Empty-hand skills should only be used as a last-ditch effort when no other options exist. Unlike what is ofetn taught in martial arts or seen in the movies, dealing with knife attacks is fast, brutal, and generally results in serious injury. It's not something that should be taken lightly.
> 
> 
> Steve



Go and reference Richard Prior's comedy skit "Macho Man". As funny as it sounds, it makes complete sense


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## K-man

szorn said:


> First off there is a difference between knife defense and knife disarms. I personally teach students / clients how to protect themselves from weapon assaults. I do not teach them classic disarms. The reason is simple, the knife is an extension of the attacker's intent. They want to harm us and the knife is just the tool to do so. If we focus on attempting to "disarm" the knife we are fixating on the weapon and doing little to slow or stop the actual threat, the person holding the knife. Instead of fixating on the weapon, it's better to use simple but savage skills to immediately slow or stop the threat as efficiently as possible. Now, with that said it doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the essentials of "disarming" as this can come into play at some point after we have diminished the attacker's ability to continue his assault.


You are 100% right in saying that you must not fixate on the weapon, but you can't ignore it either. You must at least try to control the arm with the weapon while you are hitting. A lot of knife defence is taught at range where you can move out of the way but in reality, once the attacker commits to the attack you will be inside grappling range. In close it's knees and elbows, you won't get a clean strike. Sure it's going to be simple (gross motor), but it's not safe and it's not easy. If the knife arm is not controlled at that point you are in real trouble.


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## DennisBreene

As our Arnis class is moving into knife defence, I would like to beg everyones indulgence and try to reopen the dialog. I would like to hear about specific approaches in teaching this material that are "reality based", simple, and oriented towards maximizing one's survival. I also think it would be helpful to hear about real life situations and how they evolved. I'm hoping to find ways of increasing situational awareness as well as realistic defense techniques.


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## Cyriacus

DennisBreene said:


> As our Arnis class is moving into knife defence, I would like to beg everyones indulgence and try to reopen the dialog. I would like to hear about specific approaches in teaching this material that are "reality based", simple, and oriented towards maximizing one's survival. I also think it would be helpful to hear about real life situations and how they evolved. I'm hoping to find ways of increasing situational awareness as well as realistic defense techniques.


You can find lots of people doing that out there to get information from. Most of them all say the same thing: Your chances of survival are low, youre working to increase them as best you can. I cant remember if theyre very good, but Nick Drossos (google him) basically orients all his stuff around knife defense.


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## grumpywolfman

*Distance*


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## verbatim

I feel like, assuming you aren't able to diffuse the situation in a nonviolent way, the best way to proceed would be to focus on temporarily disabling the knife to give room for a takedown (or stomach punch/groin shot and run, I don't see myself doing a full takedown and keeping an eye on where he has the knife).  Grabbing the knife hand is dangerous for obvious reasons, but what about blocking the knife itself.  I feel like a bundled up hoodie could possibly take a thrust and give you enough time to get inside his range.  Thoughts?


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## K-man

verbatim said:


> I feel like, assuming you aren't able to diffuse the situation in a nonviolent way, the best way to proceed would be to focus on temporarily disabling the knife to give room for a takedown (or stomach punch/groin shot and run, I don't see myself doing a full takedown and keeping an eye on where he has the knife).  Grabbing the knife hand is dangerous for obvious reasons, but what about blocking the knife itself.  I feel like a bundled up hoodie could possibly take a thrust and give you enough time to get inside his range.  Thoughts?


Years ago we did teach that you took off your cost and wrapped it round your arm. Hardly anyone wears coats these days so we no longer train it. But anything you can grab to wrap the arm could be beneficial if you can't get a chair or table or some other item to act as a barrier.  :asian:


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## Cyriacus

K-man said:


> Years ago we did teach that you took off your cost and wrapped it round your arm. Hardly anyone wears coats these days so we no longer train it. But anything you can grab to wrap the arm could be beneficial if you can't get a chair or table or some other item to act as a barrier.  :asian:


Why not just throw it in their face, and run like crazy? Id count on that more than wrapping their arm up


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## K-man

Cyriacus said:


> Why not just throw it in their face, and run like crazy? Id count on that more than wrapping their arm up


Assuming you can't escape! If you are far enough away to throw the coat you may as well take it with you, and still run like crazy.   Mind you, I'm not likely to be running like crazy anytime soon.


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## Cyriacus

K-man said:


> Assuming you can't escape! If you are far enough away to throw the coat you may as well take it with you, and still run like crazy.   Mind you, I'm not likely to be running like crazy anytime soon.


If you cant escape, id rather they cant see me for a second, then take my chances with trying to wrap something around their arm. I mean, cant they just punch me in the head with their non-stabby arm when they get annoyed with me?

Also;




Then:


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## Brian R. VanCise

Where people get into trouble with edged weapon defensive training is that the typically overestimate their own competence in the area and underestimate what an edged weapon can do!
When dealing with a blade weather a box cutter, folding knife, fixed blade or into the longer areas such as short swords/machetes or long swords you need to first and foremost understand what you are up against, what it can do, and how to control the distance so that you have a shot at defending against it.  Typically the best way in my opinion is to study a system that puts tools at the forefront of their training.  You need to not only have training against it but you also need to know how to utilize these edge weapons.  Now having said that can you survive a knife attack?  Sure!  It has been done in the past and will be done in the future.  However, if you have an understanding of the tool then you will realize just how much at a disadvantage you are at and you will probably do everything in your power if possible to find a tool to equalize the situation!


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## Langenschwert

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Where people get into trouble with edged weapon defensive training is that the typically overestimate their own competence in the area and underestimate what an edged weapon can do!



I tell my students that a guy with a knife is like fighting a person with a superpower... would you box a guy whose jab would likely kill you? Neither would I. So train accordingly.

-Mark


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## James Kovacich

johnjones33 said:


> i am a reality self defense instructor and teach knife disarming techniques, although if i were faced with a non-life threatening situation (eg mugging/ hold-up) and all i needed to do was hand over a wallet to avoid an altercation with someone armed with a knife then that is what i would do.  i wouldn't want to take on anyone armed with a knife unless i was fighting for my life or for that of a loved one.  A knife is an amazing leveller which is why they are the weapon of choice for cowards who would be vulnerable without one and an untrained individual can kill the most highly trained expert with one.
> 
> many people that have learned self defense against a knife in my experience have a dangerously over-inflated opinion of their abilities to disarm an opponent.  thoughts?



If someone is truly serious about understanding the blade I would recommend training in a system thats focus is the blade. Most non-blade systems are to comprehensive to have give the kind of dedication. Even 1 night a week in a decent FMA school would should be enough to see and train in a fashion where 1 comes to respect and understand the blade. 

 I don't agree that cowards carry knives. Those that train in bladed systems regularly carry blades Many have collections of blades and I can attest after training with a blade, I feel naked without it.


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## szorn

K-man said:


> You are 100% right in saying that you must not fixate on the weapon, but you can't ignore it either. You must at least try to control the arm with the weapon while you are hitting. A lot of knife defence is taught at range where you can move out of the way but in reality, once the attacker commits to the attack you will be inside grappling range. In close it's knees and elbows, you won't get a clean strike. Sure it's going to be simple (gross motor), but it's not safe and it's not easy. If the knife arm is not controlled at that point you are in real trouble.



I agree completely with you here. Weapon control and neutralization of the threat is important. So, is understanding the range we are most likely to encounter during such an attack. I generally tell my students there are two ranges when dealing with the knife - long range / outside range at least 21 feet away and possibly further (running away) and the close range. If we can't escape and we can't create space by using environmental weapons or barriers, then move to close quarter, control the weapon-bearing limb and neutralize the threat.

Steve


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## chinto

the biggest problem i see with most of the posts is they assume that you will know a knife is involved.  Most LEO's and others will tell you its not a knife fight, its an AMBUSH!   So the first thing you know about a knife being in the fight is often when you are cut or stabbed!  Personally on the street I would assume all attackers are armed! with a knife or gun, and so go for broke if I can not talk my way out or run.


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