# Maxims.



## Highlander (May 10, 2019)

Throw out some WT Maxims you've been told over the years and let's talk about them.

"When your elbow moves, the body stays. When your body moves, the elbow stays"

"Hands move before the feet"

"Every step is a kick"


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2019)

Highlander said:


> "When your elbow moves, the body stays. When your body moves, the elbow stays"
> 
> "Hands move before the feet"
> 
> "Every step is a kick"


You have just violate the most basic CMA guidelines:

1. Body unification - When you move, all body parts move at the same time. when you stop, all body parts stop at the same time.
2. Outer 3 harmony - Hand shoulder coordinate with foot. Elbow should coordinate with knee. Shoulder should coordinate with hip.

I prefer to call that "every step can be either a shin bite, or a reverse shin bite".


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## Marnetmar (May 10, 2019)

Keep your goddamn elbows in for crying out loud.


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## Highlander (May 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have just violate the most basic CMA guidelines.



How do you figure ?
I agree with the body unity and the hand=feet knees=elbow shoulder=hips.
Those are both major principles in WT.


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## yak sao (May 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have just violate the most basic CMA guidelines:
> 
> 1. Body unification - When you move, all body parts move at the same time. when you stop, all body parts stop at the same time.
> 2. Outer 3 harmony - Hand shoulder coordinate with foot. Elbow should coordinate with knee. Shoulder should coordinate with hip.
> ...



Uh, it's not a violation, he's saying the same thing you are. The motto of " when the elbow moves the body doesn't, when the body moves the elbow doesn't", is first addressed in the Chum Kiu form.

The Chum Kiu form teaches body unison. Hands and feet are synchronized, as are elbows/knees, and shoulder/hips.

When we say the elbow doesn't move when the body moves, we are saying that the elbow doesn't move from where it is in relation to the body, but it does move through space along with the body.


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## yak sao (May 10, 2019)

Marnetmar said:


> Keep your goddamn elbows in for crying out loud.



C'mon dude, you've got to say it in Chinese so it sounds better.


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## Danny T (May 10, 2019)

yak sao said:


> When we say the elbow doesn't move when the body moves, we are saying that the elbow doesn't move from where it is in relation to the body, but it does move through space along with the body.


Yep...this right here^^^^.


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## Buka (May 10, 2019)

Keep your hands up and your chin down.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2019)

yak sao said:


> When we say the elbow doesn't move when the body moves, we are saying that the elbow doesn't move from where it is in relation to the body, but it does move through space along with the body.


So it's the same as to say, "You only see the body move and you don't see the arm move". In that case, I agree!


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## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have just violate the most basic CMA guidelines:
> 
> 1. Body unification - When you move, all body parts move at the same time. when you stop, all body parts stop at the same time.
> 2. Outer 3 harmony - Hand shoulder coordinate with foot. Elbow should coordinate with knee. Shoulder should coordinate with hip.
> ...


I don't think the purpose of this thread was to nitpick the maxims. Sayings like this present an over-simplified view, by necessity, to make them easy to say in a moment. Their purpose is to remind of a specific principle, not to fully describe the movement.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have just violate the most basic CMA guidelines:
> 
> 1. Body unification - When you move, all body parts move at the same time. when you stop, all body parts stop at the same time.
> 2. Outer 3 harmony - Hand shoulder coordinate with foot. Elbow should coordinate with knee. Shoulder should coordinate with hip.
> ...


While I don't study wing chun, I can't imagine a time where I want full body unification in the sense that you're saying. Generally, I want my hand, shoulder, hip, knee and ankle/foot in line. I don't want my elbow, eyes or head to follow that line though. I think this is a fair statement to make throughout MA and that wing chun woudl not be an exception. As for point two, I agree hand/shoulder should coordinate with foot, and shoulder should coordinate with hip, but I don't think they should coordinate with elbow. When I see people trying to make their elbow move, it tends to be a "popping", that is dealing damage to their elbow in the long term. That's what makes learning a jab/cross against a wall so useful (if you don't understand what I mean by that let me know and I'll make a video. IMO it's a really important drill for any style that teaches jab/cross)


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## wckf92 (May 11, 2019)




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## dvcochran (May 11, 2019)

Applies to a lot of things, but "aim small/miss small".


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## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> That's what makes learning a jab/cross against a wall so useful (if you don't understand what I mean by that let me know and I'll make a video.


I'd be interested in seeing that, or at least a description of it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'd be interested in seeing that, or at least a description of it.


I would also like to see an example that

- your hand coordinate with your foot, but
- your elbow does not coordinate with your knee.


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## Buka (May 11, 2019)

Another maxim, this one concerning sparring. One that was a sign on our dojo wall for years -

_Beware of those that say "We'll go easy."_


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'd be interested in seeing that, or at least a description of it.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> I would also like to see an example that
> 
> - your hand coordinate with your foot, but
> - your elbow does not coordinate with your knee.



Ignore most of my form in this video-It's probably horrible since I just wanted to show the concept of the drill. Also, I switched feet halfway through-that was just to show how it works with a cross, without forcing my camera holder to move to a different angle. Obviously if your drilling it and you only fight with one leg forward, you would just turn around to focus on the cross. The idea is to make sure that your jab or cross is that you have to keep your elbow in while throwing it-if your elbow normally moves away from your body and your arm corkscrews when you punch (something I've seen a lot in beginners), it will hit the wall and you learn to stop doing that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Ignore most of my form in this video-It's probably horrible since I just wanted to show the concept of the drill. Also, I switched feet halfway through-that was just to show how it works with a cross, without forcing my camera holder to move to a different angle. Obviously if your drilling it and you only fight with one leg forward, you would just turn around to focus on the cross. The idea is to make sure that your jab or cross is that you have to keep your elbow in while throwing it-if your elbow normally moves away from your body and your arm corkscrews when you punch (something I've seen a lot in beginners), it will hit the wall and you learn to stop doing that.


Also, if you look at my legs, I intentionally turned them (not necessarily correctly) while throwing the punches just so you can see it doesn't interfere with any hip or leg movement.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 11, 2019)

Your clip doesn't work for me.

If you just try to keep elbow in, it has nothing to do with your elbow and knee coordination. If your hand is truly coordinate with your foot, it's difficult to make your elbow to move slower or faster than your knee movement.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Ignore most of my form in this video-It's probably horrible since I just wanted to show the concept of the drill. Also, I switched feet halfway through-that was just to show how it works with a cross, without forcing my camera holder to move to a different angle. Obviously if your drilling it and you only fight with one leg forward, you would just turn around to focus on the cross. The idea is to make sure that your jab or cross is that you have to keep your elbow in while throwing it-if your elbow normally moves away from your body and your arm corkscrews when you punch (something I've seen a lot in beginners), it will hit the wall and you learn to stop doing that.


"This video is unavailable."


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 11, 2019)

Example of elbow coordinate with knee - body unification.

Learn to Squat Properly with High Pulley Assisted Squats

Example of elbow does not coordinate with knee - muscle group isolation.

Top 10 Cable Pulley Exercises


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> "This video is unavailable."


Hmm I'll figure it out tonight or tomorrow


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> "This video is unavailable."


@gpseymour @Kung Fu Wang the video should be viewable now. Keep in mind A: it isnt a drill for body unification as a whole, just a way to learn how to keep your elbow in, and B: the movement in the legs/hip are just to show the drill doesn't impede with any other movements, so it should work no matter how you generate power.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> @gpseymour @Kung Fu Wang the video should be viewable now. Keep in mind A: it isnt a drill for body unification as a whole, just a way to learn how to keep your elbow in, and B: the movement in the legs/hip are just to show the drill doesn't impede with any other movements, so it should work no matter how you generate power.


That's a nice, simple drill for correcting (actually, creating awareness, which leads to correction) a pretty common mistake.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's a nice, simple drill for correcting (actually, creating awareness, which leads to correction) a pretty common mistake.


The thing i like about it is that you literally cannot ignore the issue. So you're forced to correct it if you want to keep punching


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## Highlander (May 12, 2019)

"Hands before the feet"
Your hands have to lead the charge, if you start a movement in you're legs it's very easy to 'outrun' your structure.

"Every step is a kick, every kick is a step 
"
This doesn't mean that every time you take a step you're practicing kicking. What I think this means is every step should be taken with the explosive energy of a kick. Also it's a reminder that you should be able to throw a kick at any point while you're moving and fighting. I.e keep your weight back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> @gpseymour @Kung Fu Wang the video should be viewable now. Keep in mind A: it isnt a drill for body unification as a whole, just a way to learn how to keep your elbow in, and B: the movement in the legs/hip are just to show the drill doesn't impede with any other movements, so it should work no matter how you generate power.


It looks to me that your elbow and knee are coordinated.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

Highlander said:


> "Every step is a kick, every kick is a step"


You can also consider that every step is to use your shin bone to smash on the side of your opponent's leg (to establish a leg bridge). IMO, the intention of kicking and forward stepping are not the same.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It looks to me that your elbow and knee are coordinated.


They very well may be, but that's more a result of ingrained habits, not the drill.

Edit: Actually, it may be the drill to. I'll have to experiment with it to see if the drill teaches anything about coordinating arm with legs. I don't think so though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> They very well may be, but that's more a result of ingrained habits, not the drill.
> 
> Edit: Actually, it may be the drill to. I'll have to experiment with it to see if the drill teaches anything about coordinating arm with legs. I don't think so though.


If your hand and foot stop at the same time, you should achieve the 3 harmony already. Unless when your punch stop, but your leg is still moving (or the other way around).

For example, the following drill has achieved 3 harmony.

- You step in and do downward block at the same time.

The following drill has not achieved 3 harmony.

- You step in.
- You then do downward block.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your hand and foot stop at the same time, you should achieve the 3 harmony already. Unless when your punch stop, but your leg is still moving (or the other way around).
> 
> For example, the following drill has achieved 3 harmony.
> 
> ...


I agree fully, but thats not the point of the drill i showed. That drill is purely about keeping your elbow in (which can be done without losing out on body unification)


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I can't imagine a time where I want full body unification in the sense that you're saying.


The discussion started from your concern.

The human body is like 3 springs. Without training, all 3 springs will compress and release separately. With training, all 3 springs will compress at the same time and release at the same time (body unification).

I do think this principle apply to all MA systems.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

Highlander said:


> "Hands before the feet"
> Your hands have to lead the charge, if you start a movement in you're legs it's very easy to 'outrun' your structure.


- In training your body pushes your arm (for power). 
- In fighting your body chases your arm (for speed).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The discussion started from your concern.
> 
> The human body is like 3 springs. Without training, all 3 springs will compress and release separately. With training, all 3 springs will compress at the same time and release at the same time (body unification).
> 
> I do think this principle apply to all MA systems.


I should correct my previous statement (not my concern). I want my arm and shoulder in line, I don't want my elbow in line with anything. I want my elbow doing as little movement as possible.


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## dvcochran (May 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The discussion started from your concern.
> 
> The human body is like 3 springs. Without training, all 3 springs will compress and release separately. With training, all 3 springs will compress at the same time and release at the same time (body unification).
> 
> I do think this principle apply to all MA systems.


That is an interesting analogy. Where are the 3 springs relative to the body?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is an interesting analogy. Where are the 3 springs relative to the body?


Each limb can be a spring. So it can be as many as 4 springs.


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## dvcochran (May 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Each limb can be a spring. So it can be as many as 4 springs.


That was my ponder. This leads to the segmented movement argument. I can make a finite amount of power if I use only my arm or leg. With my back pressed to a wall for example. They are a spring in the functional sense but with potential energy only. When I add the powerful spring in my mid-section the strike is exponentially stronger. So if the arms and legs are springs, I would add that the waist is also a spring. And you could argue that the shoulders and hips are also springs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Where are the 3 springs relative to the body?


When you execute a throw, you will

- pull your opponent's leading arm with your arm wrap.
- lift his left shoulder with your under hook.
- horse back kick up his legs.

All these 3 forces should start at the same time and end at the same time.


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## Highlander (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is an interesting analogy. Where are the 3 springs relative to the body?


My thoughts on this is the body is one large spring working together. If I had to break it into three sections I would say it's the legs, spine, and arms, but they should all flow/work as one.


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## Highlander (May 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - In training your body pushes your arm (for power).
> - In fighting your body chases your arm (for speed).


^^^^hands before the feet.
I think were beating around the same bush here my man.


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## Highlander (May 12, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That was my ponder. This leads to the segmented movement argument. I can make a finite amount of power if I use only my arm or leg. With my back pressed to a wall for example. They are a spring in the functional sense but with potential energy only. When I add the powerful spring in my mid-section the strike is exponentially stronger. So if the arms and legs are springs, I would add that the waist is also a spring. And you could argue that the shoulders and hips are also springs.


The hips and shoulders aren't so much springs as they are pivot points for the springs to bend and turn when necessary IMO. 
Anatomy supports this (also supports the other discussion about hands=feet elbow=knee hip=shoulder)
The wrist and ankle joints are gliding joints. Great for making single direction movement and small circles.
The knees and elbows are hinge joints; great for.. well.. hinging lol. Larger amount of movement but stuck to one plane.
The shoulder and hips are the most free moving joints in the body, a ball and socket joint. This gives you movement at every angle but requires a lot of muscle to stabilize.
So now if we start thinking about the types of joints our body has and apply the theory of the arms and legs being springs attached to the spine you can very clearly see how the arms and legs can compress (much like a spring) through the hinging joint. Once the joint moves in too close to the body it becomes weak and requires muscles to hold the structure (instead of bone). To get around this, let your ball and socket joint relax and pass the tension to the larger spring of your spine. Think about how a very strong heavy spring bends under pressure that isnt applied directly to the center. Then you snap back to center and hopefully hit your target. This is all assuming contact has already been made and you cant simply just punch the guy......


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## Highlander (May 12, 2019)

Highlander said:


> The hips and shoulders aren't so much springs as they are pivot points for the springs to bend and turn when necessary. Anatomy supports this (also supports the other discussion about hands=feet elbow=knee hip=shoulder)
> The wrist and ankle joints are gliding joints. Great for making single direction movement and small circles.
> The knees and elbows are hinge joints; great for.. well.. hinging lol. Larger amount of movement but stuck to one plane.
> The shoulder and hips are the most free moving joints in the body, a ball and socket joint. This gives you movement at every angle but requires a lot of muscle to stabilize.
> So now if we start thinking about the types of joints our body has and apply the theory of the arms and legs being springs attached to the spine you can very clearly see how the arms and legs can compress (much like a spring) through the hinging joint. Once the joint moves in too close to the body it becomes weak and requires muscles to hold the structure (instead of bone). To get around this, let your ball and socket joint relax and pass the tension to the larger spring of your spine. Think about how a very strong heavy spring bends under pressure that isnt applied directly to the center. Then you snap back to center and hopefully hit your target. This is all assuming contact has already been made and you cant simply just punch the guy......


^^TLDR. Let your joints bend and flow naturally to deal with incoming force


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## dvcochran (May 13, 2019)

Highlander said:


> The hips and shoulders aren't so much springs as they are pivot points for the springs to bend and turn when necessary IMO.
> Anatomy supports this (also supports the other discussion about hands=feet elbow=knee hip=shoulder)
> The wrist and ankle joints are gliding joints. Great for making single direction movement and small circles.
> The knees and elbows are hinge joints; great for.. well.. hinging lol. Larger amount of movement but stuck to one plane.
> ...


I feel we are in the same vein of thinking. When we talk about making power from the torso we use the description of the torso as a very high tension vertical spring. The spring is loaded by rotation of the waist with the ends affixed at the shoulders and waist. Like a high tension spring it doesn't take a great deal of rotation on its axis to fully load the spring creating very great potential energy. Once the motion of the technique is set in motion the energy is converted to kinetic and creates a massive power boost for the strike/block/kick, etc...
I never go into this level of detail with a new student; they would just glaze over.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2019)

Highlander said:


> My thoughts on this is the body is one large spring working together. If I had to break it into three sections I would say it's the legs, spine, and arms, but they should all flow/work as one.


The "twist and spring" throw require 3 forces going into 3 different directions at the same time.

1. Pull your opponent's right arm toward south direction.
2. Push his head toward west direction.
3. Spring his left leg toward east direction.


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## Highlander (May 17, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "twist and spring" throw require 3 forces going into 3 different directions at the same time.
> 
> 1. Pull your opponent's right arm toward south direction.
> 2. Push his head toward west direction.
> 3. Spring his left leg toward east direction.



Not really sure what you're going for with this comment... is this how you define the three springs of the body?
Or are you simply breaking down a particular throw?


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## mograph (May 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Their purpose is to remind of a specific principle, not to fully describe the movement.


Agree. They refer to experience, which gives them context.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 22, 2019)

Highlander said:


> Not really sure what you're going for with this comment... is this how you define the three springs of the body?
> Or are you simply breaking down a particular throw?


The 3 springs function can be seen in striking as well.

Your

- left hand pull your opponent's blocking arm.
- right hand punch his head.
- left foot kick his groin.

In training, your left hand, right hand, left foot all start at the same time and also stop at the same time.


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## Highlander (May 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 3 springs function can be seen in striking as well.
> 
> Your
> 
> ...


So you define the three springs as just three attacks happening at once ?


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## dvcochran (May 23, 2019)

Hopefully this picture helps explain my opinion on the shoulder and hips being their own kind of spring. The compression is rotational so the energy is stored and delivered rotationally.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2019)

Highlander said:


> So you define the three springs as just three attacks happening at once ?


3 part of your body move and stop all together. It doesn't have to be used in offense. It can be used in defense too.

For example, you can block a punch by

1. only move your arm without move your body.
2. move both your arm and body at the same time.

IMO, 2 >1. Even if you may miss your arm blocking, but you have moved your body out of your opponent's attacking path.


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## Highlander (May 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 3 part of your body move and stop all together. It doesn't have to be used in offense. It can be used in defense too.
> 
> For example, you can block a punch by
> 
> ...


We define the 3 springs a little differently in our style. But I see what you're getting at with this concept. 
"The best way to avoid a punch, is to not be there" Mr. Miyagi


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## Yoshiyahu (Jun 21, 2019)

- The body follows the movement of the hands. The waist and the stance move together.

- Complement the hands with posture to make good use of the centerline.

- Coordinate the hands and feet. Movement is together.

- Unite your waist and stance.

- In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jun 21, 2019)

- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

- Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

- chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.

- To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

- Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

- Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

- Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

- No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare.

- Storing energy resembles pulling a bow. Releasing power is like shooting an arrow.

- Direct the mind to store spirit, not chi, in the body. Otherwise it leads to sluggishness. No power is obtained when occupied with chi.


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