# Trying to find the name of a Cerio form



## xangelusx (Nov 11, 2004)

I studied under a Nick Cerio school almost a decade ago and learned a form there that was called "Lin Wan Kuen". I've since restarted my training, this time in a Villari's studio, and would like to bring this form back into my training. However, I've forgotten all but the very beginning of it. Unfortunatly, my searches for it on the internet have turned up fruitless, especially since Lin Wan Kuen is so widely used within the martial arts world. My sensei mentioned that it might be a form of okinawan rohai, specifically Statute of the Crane, but I've never seen this form performed before so I'm not entirely sure. I'll try to describe as much of it as I can below. My appologies for not knowing the official names of some of these stances.

  Starting in front position

 Step forward with right leg while right hand goes out to elbow position, left hand still grasping right hand and now crossed in front of body

  Push both hands in front of you with open left hand against a closed right hand

  Step back with right leg, while rolling hands back into front position

  Side step into a deep horse stance

  pivot on left foot to a low side horse stance while doing a (villaris) #7 block

  some form of strike here with the right hand

  pivot on right foot to a low side horse stance while doing a (villaris) #8 block

  some form of strike here with the left hand

 ... it gets pretty fuzzy from here. I know at some point there is a jump spinning inside crescent kick into a double floor punch.

 Ugg, that's pretty vague, I know, but if anyone notices any similarities to some form that you may know, could you drop me a line?

  Thanks!!!


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## The Kai (Nov 11, 2004)

Not to sound like a smart guy but type Lin Wan Kuen into the Martial talk search box.  Prof Joe has given some background on the form

Todd


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## xangelusx (Nov 11, 2004)

Thanks Todd.  I found Cerio/Lin Wan Kune by monkey-a-go-go, is that the thread you meant? After all that googling, I figured I had search on every page that it was mentioned on. Guess I was wrong


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## The Kai (Nov 11, 2004)

I can't open the thread but it sounds right.  The form you described starts differently from mine, plus I don't know what a Villairi #* Block is

Todd


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## xangelusx (Nov 11, 2004)

Hmm, that link worked when I tested it. Here's the full URL:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16832&highlight=Lin+Wan+Kuen

The #7 and 8 blocks are just downward blocks using the right and left hands respectively, used for fending off kicks.


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## Matt (Nov 11, 2004)

xangelusx said:
			
		

> I studied under a Nick Cerio school almost a decade ago and learned a form there that was called "Lin Wan Kuen". I've since restarted my training, this time in a Villari's studio, and would like to bring this form back into my training. However, I've forgotten all but the very beginning of it. Unfortunatly, my searches for it on the internet have turned up fruitless, especially since Lin Wan Kuen is so widely used within the martial arts world. My sensei mentioned that it might be a form of okinawan rohai, specifically Statute of the Crane, but I've never seen this form performed before so I'm not entirely sure.



That's strange - Statue of the Crane is a mid-level form for both Cerios and Villaris, but as far as I knew, Lin Wan Kune was a higher level form. For general background:

Rohai - an Okinawan Shorin Ryu / Matsubayashi Ryu form containing many 'crane' stances. The shorin Ryu of Denmark (shorinryu.dk)site used to have a great movie of this online, but the page is 404 at the moment. If you can get your hands on _The Essence of Okinawan Karate_ by Shoshin Nagamine, you can get a good look at it. 

Statue of the Crane - A form based (loosely) on Rohai. Brought into the Shaolin Kempo curriculum by (depending who you talk to) Walter Godin, Victor Gascon, or George Pesare (who said he adapted it from the TKD form Nohai). This can be seen in Nick Cerio's _ The Master's Text_, or in the training manuals from the folks at Masters Self Defense Centers. 

Lin Wan Kune - Continuous returning fist of Sil Lum Kung fu. A big, long fisty type form of Chinese origin. Brought in to Nick Cerio's Kenpo after he and Fred Villari had their differences, and I believe after he had already started formulating 'Nick Cerios Kenpo'. There is the book and companion video by Leo Fong if you want to see it. 

Matt


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## xangelusx (Nov 12, 2004)

Thanks for the info Matt.  I looked for the Leo Fong book yesterday, and managed to find one, but it wasn't the one published by ohara, which seems to be a much more rare book.  I'll let you know if it's in the other book that I  did order.


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## xangelusx (Nov 12, 2004)

PS: Do you know where I might be able to find that companion video, either for purchase or to rent/borrow?


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## monkey-a-go-go (Nov 12, 2004)

xangelusx,
 If the book was published by something like blackbelt communications, it should be the same one as ohara. Same outfit. Matt offered good info on Rohai. Also called Meikyo (sp) in shotokan. Definately different from Lin Wan kune, although there is crane posture near the end.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 13, 2004)

Matt said:
			
		

> That's strange - Statue of the Crane is a mid-level form for both Cerios and Villaris, but as far as I knew, Lin Wan Kune was a higher level form. For general background:
> 
> Rohai - an Okinawan Shorin Ryu / Matsubayashi Ryu form containing many 'crane' stances. The shorin Ryu of Denmark (shorinryu.dk)site used to have a great movie of this online, but the page is 404 at the moment. If you can get your hands on _The Essence of Okinawan Karate_ by Shoshin Nagamine, you can get a good look at it.
> 
> ...



Matt is entirely correct from my viewpoint on this also. Several of us asked Gm. Pesare and he stated he had added this form to the curriculum and I was told Nohai also. I did a lot of research on this and so didn't my kempo brother Peter Teymourez out on the west coast. It was very difficult to find a complete breakdown of Nohai but I believe it was spelled Nohi, according to Gm. Pesare and also what I found. It wasn't in a Korean system, however, I believe it was an Okinawan based system. It stated Nohi mean't 'Crane on a Rock' and the break down showed no similarities with the Karazenpo Shaolin Kempo Crane at all. However, Okinawa Rohai did. I believe Rohai translates to 'Symbol of the White Heron'. There are three versions, Rohai 1, the original, then 2 & 3, one for a tall person and one for a short person. The key was everything done in a sequence of threes. That is the common thread between Rohai and the Shaolin Kempo versions, you'll pick this out right away and I agree with Matt, our version is radically altered from the Okinawan version but still identifiable as inspired by Rohai. Perhaps this Korean version is different and also uses sequences of threes but I have no knowledge of this. The Nohi I saw the break down of is entirely different.

Chris, respectfully, that's not the opening movement of Lin Wan Kune and the jump double crescent kick and ground followup is at the end of the form. I got it in a private from Professor Cerio in the very early 90's and just went over it recently with Hanshi Craig Seavey. Cerio was taught the form by two masters, Leo Fong & Gang Fong Chin, I believe. I just got your private e-mail and I will contact you shortly. Take care, Professor Joe


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## Karazenpo (Nov 13, 2004)

If I may also add in agreement with Matt that Statue of the Crane in the Cerio and Villari systems is a middle level form and Lin Wan Kune in the Cerio system, a higher level form. Interestingly enough, I was browsing through an Okinawan curriculum and found Rohai under 2nd degree black belt information. Professor Cerio also taught Lin Wan Kune specifically to students who were a little tight in order to loosen them up a bit and unlock more power and improve flow. This form is also popular in tournaments along with Cerio's Cat Form #3. Years ago, when the Professor was alive, Circle of the Tiger, both original and modified versions dominated many tournaments in the New England area. The Professor told me this form was his 'baby' and the nucleus of NCK. He used to perform it at tournaments and then do the application in sequence to a multi-man attack. He told me if anyone altered it for competition, that was okay, but they had to announce: My form is Circle of the Tiger, "modified for competition". I felt he still didn't like it messed with though.


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## xangelusx (Nov 16, 2004)

I found The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do at Borders yesterday and read through the Rohai sequence.  It's definitely not the form I was thinking of.  I'm still waiting for my Leo Fong book to arrive.  Thanks for all of the guidance so far.  

Joe, when I was in the Nick Cerio program, my Shihan (Ray Erlanderson, maybe you know of him? He taught in the Northbridge area.) started teaching me Lin Wan Kuen at Orange belt. I was only at Purple belt when I left and had about 90% of the form.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 22, 2004)

xangelusx said:
			
		

> I found The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do at Borders yesterday and read through the Rohai sequence.  It's definitely not the form I was thinking of.  I'm still waiting for my Leo Fong book to arrive.  Thanks for all of the guidance so far.
> 
> Joe, when I was in the Nick Cerio program, my Shihan (Ray Erlanderson, maybe you know of him? He taught in the Northbridge area.) started teaching me Lin Wan Kuen at Orange belt. I was only at Purple belt when I left and had about 90% of the form.



I don't think I ever met him. It is very odd, however, that you would get Lin Wan Kune at orange belt level, even purple because as I'm sure Matt will verify, Lin Wan Kune is definitely an advanced form. Statue of the Crane was inspired by Rohai and neither form looks like Lin Wan Kune.


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## Gentle Fist (Nov 22, 2004)

Currently in NCK, Statue of the Crane is an Ikkyu form and Lin Wan Kune is taught at Shodan.  Lin Wan Kune is also the longest non-weapon form in the system.  Cat 3 and Circle of the Panther are a close second in terms of length.  There could be an upper black belt form that is longer.  Prof Joe and Matt would know better than I.


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## Gentle Fist (Nov 22, 2004)

Shihan Ray is now with Kensho Ryu, a break off system of NCK.  He is still around as far as I know.  http://www.kensho-ryu.org


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## Matt (Nov 22, 2004)

xangelusx said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info Matt.  I looked for the Leo Fong book yesterday, and managed to find one, but it wasn't the one published by ohara, which seems to be a much more rare book.  I'll let you know if it's in the other book that I  did order.



Mine is the 1971 Ohara Publications _Sil Lum Kung Fu_ which I got off eBay. Mine's the 1973 fourth printing. 


> PS: Do you know where I might be able to find that companion video, either for purchase or to rent/borrow?



Maybe...
email me.


Matt (at capecodmartialarts.com)


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## xangelusx (Nov 23, 2004)

Thanks for the info, fistlaw.


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## xangelusx (Nov 23, 2004)

Matt, I'll drop you an email in a few minutes.  The Leo Fong book that I ended up getting is pretty old.  I'm not sure of the exact date (it's at home, I'm at work) but I wouldn't be surprised if it was from the 70's.  I'll check when I get home.  It was published by Blackbelt press, which I am finding published quite a few books by the old masters.

I quickly scanned through the Lin Wan Kuen form in the book, but I haven't had a chance to sit down and really study it.  Thanks for all of the guidance so far.


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