# Thoughts on belt testing fees



## wab25 (Feb 26, 2020)

In my organization, the kyu rank belts are handled strictly by the dojos. The dojos I was a part of, and the school I run... we don't charge anything for belt tests. Some have an actual test, others just award the new belt when the student is ready. We don't even charge the student for the belt. (they are nothing fancy, just a generic belt of the appropriate color)

For Black Belt, the organization gets involved. They charge $100 for all Black Belt exams. That covers the students background check, and certificate. The tests are done at different venues which usually need to be rented out, there are three examiners, one caller, and someone to read the students kata manual (each student is required to write all their kata down, to create their own manual). The test can take a few hours.

I am currently cross training in Karate. A couple weeks ago, I was asked during class to demonstrate two kata. Note that this is a normal thing that sensei asks periodically of all the students. Last week, at the end of class, I was called up and given a brown belt. A few days later, I received an email stating that the brown belt testing fee was $50. (the belt was not that nice) At Black Belt, the testing fee goes up into the hundreds, yet all testing happens during regular class, with just the regular school instructors.

I know some Martial Artists pay fees in the thousands to test at Black Belt levels. I have found schools, where the testing fees are "low"... the first test is only $10, the fee doubles for each successive test as the student progresses, with 10 ranks between white and black, and 3 levels for each rank...

What kind of testing fees do you guys have where you train?
What does the student get for the fee?
How does the fee benefit the student? the school?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2020)

So the guy tossed you a brown belt when you didn’t even realize you were testing, and then followed up with notice that you owe him a testing fee?  For shame.


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## skribs (Feb 26, 2020)

wab25 said:


> A few days later, I received an email stating that the brown belt testing fee was $50.



I'd never considered belt testing fees for schools that don't even test.  The way it happened to you is a surprise fee and I'd be royally upset by it if this happened to me.

The first thing I want to say about fees in general is that it's very difficult to compare school-to-school.  I think our Brits on here would say that school tuition costs are somewhere between free and 10 pounds per month, where most Americans might quote you monthly fees in the 80s or 90s or even into the hundreds.  Location is a big part of it, too.  An American in the midwest will quote you less than someone in NYC.

The second thing is that if all you're looking at is belt tests, that doesn't give you the total package.  If you have three schools that expect you to test every 3 months, one school may have $120 monthly and no test fees, another may have $110 monthly and $30 test fee, and another may have $100 monthly and $60 test fee.  You'll pay the same at all 3 schools.  If you test every 1 or 2 months because you learn faster, it may benefit you to go to the first school.  If you take 6-8 months per test instead, it may benefit you to go to the third school.  However, you'll probably end up at the school you like better (unless your budget is tight).

My school has around a $95 monthly fee.  Our belt tests get progressively more expensive, with Dan tests being much higher:

Beginner belts are $40 per test
Intermediate belts are $50 per test
Red belts are $60 per test
Black belt gup tests (intermediate tests between Dan ranks) are $70
1st Dan is $720 total.  Each Dan rank after that is $100 more than the last (around $820 for 2nd dan, $920 for 3rd dan).
However, with the cost of the Dan test is a new uniform (the uniforms are $125-175 depending on rank), an embroidered belt (probably around $40-50), and 3 semi-private lessons with other black belt candidates ($120).  That means there's $400 left for the test, to be divided between the organization's fees, miscellaneous items for the test (i.e. boards), and then school profit.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I know some Martial Artists pay fees in the thousands to test at Black Belt levels. I have found schools, where the testing fees are "low"... the first test is only $10, the fee doubles for each successive test as the student progresses, with 10 ranks between white and black, and 3 levels for each rank...



Ok, with ten ranks from white to black, and three “levels” (whatever that means) at each rank, makes for thirty tests to first black?  Is that how they are doing it?  Because if the first one is $10 and each successive one is doubled from the prior, that very quickly hits some astronomical numbers.  If only one student went through and paid all that, the instructor’s family would be well set financially for some generations to come.


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## skribs (Feb 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, with ten ranks from white to black, and three “levels” (whatever that means) at each rank, makes for thirty tests to first black?  Is that how they are doing it?  Because if the first one is $10 and each successive one is doubled from the prior, that very quickly hits some astronomical numbers.  If only one student went through and paid all that, the instructor’s family would be well set financially for some generations to come.



I can't tell what you things cost at my first TKD school (because I was a kid and didn't even realize my parents paid for me to go to TKD), but I remember our belt system.  7 colors before black, each belt color had the solid belt and then 3 stripes.  We used tape stripes around the belt tip.  So white belt with 3 yellow stripes, then you get your yellow belt, then 3 orange stripes and then an orange belt, and so on.  White - yellow - orange - purple - green - blue - red - brown - black.  It took 28 tests to get your black belt!

Around the time I got my green belt, they changed to a new system.  You got the solid belt, then a belt with a white stripe down the middle, and then a belt with a black stripe, and then the next color.  I don't know if they still did the tape stripes for white belt, but that may not have had any intermediate ranks.  At that point it would have probably been 19 tests or so.

I found on the KarateMart site you could order belts of basically any color with any color stripe.  So you could in theory have something ridiculous like:

Solid white belt
White with yellow stripe
White with purple stripe
White with orange stripe
White with green stripe
White with blue stripe
White with red stripe
White with brown stripe
White with black stripe
Yellow with white stripe
Solid yellow stripe
Yellow with purple stripe
Etc. a bunch
Brown with black stripe
Black with white stripe
Black with yellow stripe
Etc. a bit more
Black with brown stripe
Solid black belt
In that case, it would only take 81 tests to get your black belt.

If nothing else, it would be a great rank structure for April Fool's Day.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> I can't tell what you things cost at my first TKD school (because I was a kid and didn't even realize my parents paid for me to go to TKD), but I remember our belt system.  7 colors before black, each belt color had the solid belt and then 3 stripes.  We used tape stripes around the belt tip.  So white belt with 3 yellow stripes, then you get your yellow belt, then 3 orange stripes and then an orange belt, and so on.  White - yellow - orange - purple - green - blue - red - brown - black.  It took 28 tests to get your black belt!
> 
> Around the time I got my green belt, they changed to a new system.  You got the solid belt, then a belt with a white stripe down the middle, and then a belt with a black stripe, and then the next color.  I don't know if they still did the tape stripes for white belt, but that may not have had any intermediate ranks.  At that point it would have probably been 19 tests or so.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a whole lot of financial padding to me.  I think it’s unethical.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> I can't tell what you things cost at my first TKD school (because I was a kid and didn't even realize my parents paid for me to go to TKD), but I remember our belt system.  7 colors before black, each belt color had the solid belt and then 3 stripes.  We used tape stripes around the belt tip.  So white belt with 3 yellow stripes, then you get your yellow belt, then 3 orange stripes and then an orange belt, and so on.  White - yellow - orange - purple - green - blue - red - brown - black.  It took 28 tests to get your black belt!
> 
> Around the time I got my green belt, they changed to a new system.  You got the solid belt, then a belt with a white stripe down the middle, and then a belt with a black stripe, and then the next color.  I don't know if they still did the tape stripes for white belt, but that may not have had any intermediate ranks.  At that point it would have probably been 19 tests or so.


I’m trying to wrap my head around this.  The sheer number here is rather astounding, to be honest.  From the discussions I’ve read, it seems that earning a black belt in TKD can typically take anywhere from two to four years, with a small number of outliers on either side, where it can be as little as a year and a half or as long as eight.  Kudos to those on the high end.

But from one and a half to four years with somewhere between nineteen and twenty-eight tests, it seems nothing gets done but take tests, and write another check.  I find that astounding, in all honesty.  Testing is nothing but a cash cow.  If this is an accurate description of the business practices of any school, much less a large number of schools, that just makes me shudder.  I cannot understand how such a program is successfully sold to new students.  _Caveat_ _emptor_ takes on a whole new meaning.


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## JR 137 (Feb 26, 2020)

In my area, TKD has a lot of tests. But the thing is most students are on the “black belt plan” where they pay one price for everything up to and including the black belt test (not uniforms though). So if the price is $4k, you pay $4k regardless of if it takes you 1 year or 100 years. And all the tests are included. That’s a good deal if you take 4 years or more, but not so much when they push you through in 2 or so. 

Our organization charges for tests. Colored belt tests aren’t outrageous (the highest is I think $60). There’s 9 colored belt tests. The first 4 or so are every 3 months minimum, then 6 months minimum, followed by 9 months between 2nd and 1st. Average time is 5 years to 1st dan. Every dojo charges the same amount, as was the potential for odd things to happen. 

Black belt tests are done at our organization’s headquarters dojo (honbu) by the head of the organization. They’re a couple hundred dollars. For being a few doors down from the Flatiron Building in Manhattan, his tuition is pretty cheap. IMO a significant portion of their income is from black belt testing. Doing some crude math, I don’t think they’d survive on tuition fees alone. When you’ve got several years between dan tests, the high cost is easier to swallow. For the tuition I pay, and adding kyu tests and black belt tests (when I get there), my cost of attendance is still quite low. 

Of course there are some places that take advantage of testing and nickel and dime you every step of the way. But not everyone does that. The best way to look at it is to add tuition, testing, and any other fees together for a time period and divide it up until you get a monthly cost. If it’s not worth it, leave. If you’re good with it, stay. Simple as that, really.


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## skribs (Feb 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds like a whole lot of financial padding to me.  I think it’s unethical.





Flying Crane said:


> I’m trying to wrap my head around this.  The sheer number here is rather astounding, to be honest.  From the discussions I’ve read, it seems that earning a black belt in TKD can typically take anywhere from two to four years, with a small number of outliers on either side, where it can be as little as a year and a half or as long as eight.  Kudos to those on the high end.
> 
> But from one and a half to four years with somewhere between nineteen and twenty-eight tests, it seems nothing gets done but take tests, and write another check.  I find that astounding, in all honesty.  Testing is nothing but a cash cow.  If this is an accurate description of the business practices of any school, much less a large number of schools, that just makes me shudder.  I cannot understand how such a program is successfully sold to new students.  _Caveat_ _emptor_ takes on a whole new meaning.



This was 25 years ago.  He did change it to be less tests total midway through my stay there.  I think it was more about a black belt being hard to get than about financial padding.  Especially for kids.  His attitude was that if a kid had a black belt, they needed to be *really* good and earn that belt.  He was one of the outliers you mention in the next post.  I was there for 4 years and ended up at green belt.  I don't remember how often the tests were, but we weren't testing every month.  That's 16 tests in 4 years, which is only a test every 4 months.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2020)

irondome said:


> I have never paid for a belt test, but then again that was in the 90's. When schools average range was from $40 to $60 a month. I would never attend a school who does back ground checks that's absurd


I read that as the back ground check is for black belt, not to attend. I agree it's unnecessary, but you likely wouldn't even know they do a background check for BB until after you've been there for four years.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2020)

If there was a special day. So say a head instructor flew in to do it. Then fine.

If it is class time then it shouldn't cost.


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## wab25 (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I would never attend a school who does back ground checks that's absurd


In our organization, Black Belt is an instructor rank. So any Black Belt can be an instructor, even if they are filling in as a substitute while the sensei is out. That being the case, every Black Belt is required to have back ground checks every couple of years. Since instructors have the potential to deal with kids and youth, its in everyone's interest to have the back ground checks current. Anyone that has been guilty of any sort of child abuse, sexual assault or domestic abuse is not welcome to be a Black Belt, or an instructor in our organization. We believe in taking steps to keep it that way.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> If there was a special day. So say a head instructor flew in to do it. Then fine.
> 
> If it is class time then it shouldn't cost.


Bear, how do y'all do it? Do you even do belts?


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'd never considered belt testing fees for schools that don't even test.  The way it happened to you is a surprise fee and I'd be royally upset by it if this happened to me.
> 
> The first thing I want to say about fees in general is that it's very difficult to compare school-to-school.  I think our Brits on here would say that school tuition costs are somewhere between free and 10 pounds per month, where most Americans might quote you monthly fees in the 80s or 90s or even into the hundreds.  Location is a big part of it, too.  An American in the midwest will quote you less than someone in NYC.
> 
> ...



Are your BB testing Kukkiwon Dan grades? Do you get a real Kukkiwon certificate (it is easy to verify)? If so a significant portion of the money goes to Kukkiwon. Not certain, but if memory serves $300 for 1st Dan and it goes up for each Dan grade.


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## jobo (Feb 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> In my organization, the kyu rank belts are handled strictly by the dojos. The dojos I was a part of, and the school I run... we don't charge anything for belt tests. Some have an actual test, others just award the new belt when the student is ready. We don't even charge the student for the belt. (they are nothing fancy, just a generic belt of the appropriate color)
> 
> For Black Belt, the organization gets involved. They charge $100 for all Black Belt exams. That covers the students background check, and certificate. The tests are done at different venues which usually need to be rented out, there are three examiners, one caller, and someone to read the students kata manual (each student is required to write all their kata down, to create their own manual). The test can take a few hours.
> 
> ...


 belt test are part of their income stream, i suppose it depends on how much the brown belt is worth to you ?  it only have the financial value you ascribe to it

its certainly a bit unethical to test and charge with out telling you first. they clearly have no idea what your finical situation is, your kids may go hungry for all they know

id be tempted to give them the belt back and keep my 50$ and my existing belt


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## wab25 (Feb 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, with ten ranks from white to black, and three “levels” (whatever that means) at each rank, makes for thirty tests to first black? Is that how they are doing it? Because if the first one is $10 and each successive one is doubled from the prior, that very quickly hits some astronomical numbers. If only one student went through and paid all that, the instructor’s family would be well set financially for some generations to come.


Yes... there were about 30 ranks from white to black. You paid a $150 initiation fee, when you started (got your white belt), white belt 1 was the $10, white belt 2 was $20, yellow $40, yellow 1 $80... At some point they stopped doubling... but you were charged $2500 for shodan, $3500 for nidan...


dvcochran said:


> Not certain, but if memory serves $300 for 1st Dan and it goes up for each Dan grade.


Why does it go up for each dan grade?


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## jobo (Feb 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Yes... there were about 30 ranks from white to black. You paid a $150 initiation fee, when you started (got your white belt), white belt 1 was the $10, white belt 2 was $20, yellow $40, yellow 1 $80... At some point they stopped doubling... but you were charged $2500 for shodan, $3500 for nidan...
> Why does it go up for each dan grade?


 i would have though that was obvious, coz people are prepared to pay more for an honorary title than they are a less honorary titled

its just plain manipulation of people for profit


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Are your BB testing Kukkiwon Dan grades? Do you get a real Kukkiwon certificate (it is easy to verify)? If so a significant portion of the money goes to Kukkiwon. Not certain, but if memory serves $300 for 1st Dan and it goes up for each Dan grade.



Yes.  I'm 99.99% certain they are official KKW grades.  I've gotten mixed reports on what the costs are.  I've heard $300 here, but other places have said it's only $100.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

Some of these post really emphasize how the model of attaining a black belt has been manipulated and changed. Naturally, theses changes will be absorbed as the norm for the next generation. Not a good thing IMHO. 

I started training in 1982 and testing for all Gup grades was $30. We have never changed the price. That includes a belt if there is a color change. We have only 9 Gup grades. Some Gups get stripes on the same belt color but there are No interim 'stars' or steps required for advancement. We go white, white/stripe, yellow, yellow/stripe, green, green/stripe, blue, red, red/2 stripes, red/3 stripes. No other interim steps. 
If you think of the cost of a belt ($6.00 avg. quality), building/equipment cost for testing time involved, and put Any dollar value on the time spent testing people, $30 is an above average deal.  
We/our GM is qualified to do certified Kukkiwon BB testings. That is a formality they require. Our GM charges $100 over the stated Kukkiwon fees for BB testings. They are listed on the Kukkiwon website. This includes a very nice embroidered belt (about $25 if memory serves).

On a much lower scale we do Moo Duk Kwan BB testing for the Pan/AM region. I have noticed the divide between Kukkiwon certification and MDK certification getting wider, at least in our area/situation.


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## W.Bridges (Feb 27, 2020)

In the first Karate/Taekwondo school i was at it was 3000. to be in the black belt club and that took care of all the test fees from white to 1st Dan. At the Kenpo school I was in it was 30 a month and test fees were 15 for collor belts and do not recall what the black belt fee was. The Taekwondo school that i attend now its 30 dollars a year membership and 15 for any other family member, test fees are 30. We are normally told when we are testing. the last test that we did the two students did not now but their parent's was in formed two weeks before that they was going to test so they could be there to watch.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Some of these post really emphasize how the model of attaining a black belt has been manipulated and changed. Naturally, theses changes will be absorbed as the norm for the next generation. Not a good thing IMHO.
> 
> I started training in 1982 and testing for all Gup grades was $30. We have never changed the price. That includes a belt if there is a color change. We have only 9 Gup grades. Some Gups get stripes on the same belt color but there are No interim 'stars' or steps required for advancement. We go white, white/stripe, yellow, yellow/stripe, green, green/stripe, blue, red, red/2 stripes, red/3 stripes. No other interim steps.
> If you think of the cost of a belt ($6.00 avg. quality), building/equipment cost for testing time involved, and put Any dollar value on the time spent testing people, $30 is an above average deal.
> ...



Has your tuition price gone up during that time?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> In my organization, the kyu rank belts are handled strictly by the dojos. The dojos I was a part of, and the school I run... we don't charge anything for belt tests. Some have an actual test, others just award the new belt when the student is ready. We don't even charge the student for the belt. (they are nothing fancy, just a generic belt of the appropriate color)
> 
> For Black Belt, the organization gets involved. They charge $100 for all Black Belt exams. That covers the students background check, and certificate. The tests are done at different venues which usually need to be rented out, there are three examiners, one caller, and someone to read the students kata manual (each student is required to write all their kata down, to create their own manual). The test can take a few hours.
> 
> ...


When done right, testing/belt fees are just a way of re-distributing the cost so it's fair (from one point of view) to all students. Personally, I prefer to charge for training. I think with associations there's a reasonable argument for a modest fee for the cost of maintaining tracking systems, but that's about it. If the testing takes a lot of time and incurs additional costs (like the black belt tests you outlined), that cost is somewhere in the fee structure. It's probably fairer to the slow-progressing students for that to show up as a test/belt fee, rather than as part of their monthly fee. In the end, which way they are distributed should make little difference.

If they're done right.

If they're done wrong - and there are as many wrong ways as right ways - they are a way of making money the student doesn't really pay attention to in advance. The student invests a lot of time and monthly fees, and then finds out they have to pay more for the test/belt, so they just cough it up. I'm not a fan of that approach.

When fees aren't disclosed in advance, that's dishonest business. I don't know if they were in your case - might just be someplace you never really paid attention to, and there's no way for us to know. Students should know BEFORE joining what the fee structure is (including testing fees). If it changes, there should be advance notice. Anything else is just not "right", in my book.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Has your tuition price gone up during that time?


Very little. It works out to $50 at one school and about $60 at the other. Once is no contract the other requires an annual contract.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> When fees aren't disclosed in advance, that's dishonest business



What's your feeling on if the fees aren't specifically hidden, but also aren't discussed until they're relevant or if someone asks?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> I can't tell what you things cost at my first TKD school (because I was a kid and didn't even realize my parents paid for me to go to TKD), but I remember our belt system.  7 colors before black, each belt color had the solid belt and then 3 stripes.  We used tape stripes around the belt tip.  So white belt with 3 yellow stripes, then you get your yellow belt, then 3 orange stripes and then an orange belt, and so on.  White - yellow - orange - purple - green - blue - red - brown - black.  It took 28 tests to get your black belt!
> 
> Around the time I got my green belt, they changed to a new system.  You got the solid belt, then a belt with a white stripe down the middle, and then a belt with a black stripe, and then the next color.  I don't know if they still did the tape stripes for white belt, but that may not have had any intermediate ranks.  At that point it would have probably been 19 tests or so.
> 
> ...


I'm going to do that. Then I'll just test every month. And I'll change the belt-to-rank assignment once a year (replace stripes with tips, use chevrons on the uniform, maybe mix in a new color one year...). Pretty soon, nobody will have any idea what rank anyone is.

Now I just need more than 5 students to make this work.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Very little. It works out to $50 at one school and about $60 at the other. Once is no contract the other requires an annual contract.



How has your school survived against inflation for almost 40 years?


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Yes.  I'm 99.99% certain they are official KKW grades.  I've gotten mixed reports on what the costs are.  I've heard $300 here, but other places have said it's only $100.


If it has not changed the fees on somewhere on the Kukkiwon site. It is hard to navigate.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'm going to do that. Then I'll just test every month. And I'll change the belt-to-rank assignment once a year (replace stripes with tips, use chevrons on the uniform, maybe mix in a new color one year...). Pretty soon, nobody will have any idea what rank anyone is.
> 
> Now I just need more than 5 students to make this work.



Or...and hear me out...you combine them all together and make a rank structure so complicated that even testing every month, it takes 40 years to get your black belt!


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## marques (Feb 27, 2020)

Each school or organization charges differently. Some are more profitable, or profit oriented, than others. I would not mind much about. Your only choice is to pay or leave, isn’t it?

I was charged a bit (€10-25?) for juri evaluation and a book (sort of). Black belt was more extensive, but harder examination and included a blazer and the belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> What's your feeling on if the fees aren't specifically hidden, but also aren't discussed until they're relevant or if someone asks?


I think they should be available before people sign up. It's part of what people should know. They ask what the training costs, they should be told (including those ancillary costs). Imagine if your phone company popped up with some new fees after you'd been signed up for several months - fees they knew about, but didn't bother to tell you in advance, and only told you prior to Christmas that there is a fee for calling family on the 25th. It's something you expected to be doing when you signed up for the service, and didn't know there would be an additional fee for it.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> How has your school survived against inflation for almost 40 years?


When I started it was $35/month. I would have to do the math but it has probably went up just enough to keep pace with inflation, for us. There were certain times in the business curve (popularity factor)when we could have spiked prices but never have. I feel there is some balancing on the back side of a spiked curve that results in dollars. Having property ownership creates a flattening of cost over time. No incremental increases in rent for example. 

I get it, but I am still not super jazzed about contractual obligations for a recreation. Just calling a spade a spade. Does it make the viability of the business aspect much easier to navigate? Certainly. And there is great value for the student in knowing the dojo/dojang is solvent and stable. But how many people walk in really worrying about things like that? 

I am an engineer by trade so my mind says everything has to be tested and validated. A schools program and teacher/instructor is no different. If the program is worth it's salt, it should be able to stand on it's own and generate revenue to support itself. Yes, there are tons of external factors and 'what ifs' but at the end of the day it is really that simple.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> They ask what the training costs, they should be told



This was the question I was asking.  Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"?  Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Yes... there were about 30 ranks from white to black. You paid a $150 initiation fee, when you started (got your white belt), white belt 1 was the $10, white belt 2 was $20, yellow $40, yellow 1 $80... At some point they stopped doubling... but you were charged $2500 for shodan, $3500 for nidan...



Wow.  I began kenpo in 1984, our ranking was white, orange, purple blue green, three levels of brown, black.  There were no intermediate or half steps between those.  There were no testing fees below black, but I think perhaps we paid for our own belt, something like $5.  Black belt had a fee, my memory is foggy on it, but either $50 or $150 sounds right.  I was the only person my  instructor ranked to black, so I believe he did not have a formal policy on that.  I think he just made a decision for the moment, and it seemed fair to me.  But we were a very relaxed school in that regard.  Monthly fees were something like $25 or $30.  I’m guessing inflation would increase those fees, those prices in the 1980s would not hold up today, even in the small town in Wisconsin where I grew up.  Certainly they would not hold up in San Francisco.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think they should be available before people sign up. It's part of what people should know. They ask what the training costs, they should be told (including those ancillary costs). Imagine if your phone company popped up with some new fees after you'd been signed up for several months - fees they knew about, but didn't bother to tell you in advance, and only told you prior to Christmas that there is a fee for calling family on the 25th. It's something you expected to be doing when you signed up for the service, and didn't know there would be an additional fee for it.


Can you give a description of what you call ancillary costs? We try to be very transparent but I have learned that no matter how thorough you are on the front end with giving people the information, sometimes it just does not get fully received.

A common example for us is sparring gear. It is not included in signing up. We do however have an ample amount of hogus (chest protectors) and head gear that are shared. I have more than a few people ask me 'where the rest of their gear was' as if that was part of enrollment. And a few that have gotten upset about it. Can you workout without it? Sure. But I do not recommend it and most people figure it out pretty quick. 
We keep lots of gear in stock and I make sure we are always competitive on our pricing but have zero problem with someone getting their own. 
In today's world many people would prefer to have their own gear for hygiene purposes. This is becoming a more conscious slope for a school. I am about at the point where I am going to have sanitizing wipes at the dojang and require everyone to wipe down their gear Before every use. That way everybody sees that it has been done.
Sounds kind of silly I agree, but I feel we are at the point where it is a required formality.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> This was the question I was asking.  Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"?  Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?


All fees should be presented when someone signs up.  Not “hiding” them but not disclosing them unless asked, when typical people may not realize they need to ask, is hiding them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Or...and hear me out...you combine them all together and make a rank structure so complicated that even testing every month, it takes 40 years to get your black belt!


Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? They get to brown belt, get their pink tip, and next year I reassign "pink tip" to mean what yellow belt used to mean. They get ready to test for black, and I tell them they're eligible to test for chartreuse.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> In my area, TKD has a lot of tests. But the thing is most students are on the “black belt plan” where they pay one price for everything up to and including the black belt test (not uniforms though). So if the price is $4k, you pay $4k regardless of if it takes you 1 year or 100 years. And all the tests are included. That’s a good deal if you take 4 years or more, but not so much when they push you through in 2 or so.
> .


Anything can be abused, but I think this approach is particularly ripe.  There is an incentive to get the student to a point where they are paying fees again.  So a strong temptation exists to promote faster than the student is ready or merits.  Get a black belt wrapped around that kid so we can start charging fees again.  Tell his parents how much of a gifted protege he is, to justify a black belt in a year and a half or two years.

And now we've got one more lousy black belt who doesn’t deserve it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> This was the question I was asking.  Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"?  Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?


If I had testing fees, I'd probably say something like, "Classes are $40/month, and there's an additional fee for testing at each rank. Those fees are in the student manual. You're welcome to look at a copy while you're watching class." Most folks probably aren't going to be very concerned with it, and would likely ask what the fee is, so: "Early test fees are $X, and rise slightly with each rank. You'd expect to test no more quickly than about Y often, so that's about how often you'd be eligible to pay this. Later tests are further apart, so fewer than once a year."

(I'm using more common testing timelines, rather than my own - mine would be no more than once a year for any test, under normal circumstances.)


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? They get to brown belt, get their pink tip, and next year I reassign "pink tip" to mean what yellow belt used to mean. They get ready to test for black, and I tell them they're eligible to test for chartreuse.



Well I was thinking you could combine the stripe system I mentioned with the tips.  So white, 5 tips and then white/yellow.  Then 5 tips and then white/purple.  And so on.  Even better, different colors of tips (5 yellow tips, 5 purple tips, etc).

And after all those combinations, you get the vertical striped belts, like the BJJ red + white belt, but in every color combination.  Then belts that are half-and-half horizontal stripe.  Then belts that are checkered.

Oh, and we could add thickness in, too.  After you've gotten your brown and black checkered belt with a full rainbow of tips...it's time for the thick white belt.  And start from scratch.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? They get to brown belt, get their pink tip, and next year I reassign "pink tip" to mean what yellow belt used to mean. They get ready to test for black, and I tell them they're eligible to test for chartreuse.



So just have a rolling curriculum and have it roll faster than you can test.  Tests every 3 months, curriculum rolls every 2.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Can you give a description of what you call ancillary costs? We try to be very transparent but I have learned that no matter how thorough you are on the front end with giving people the information, sometimes it just does not get fully received.
> 
> A common example for us is sparring gear. It is not included in signing up. We do however have an ample amount of hogus (chest protectors) and head gear that are shared. I have more than a few people ask me 'where the rest of their gear was' as if that was part of enrollment. And a few that have gotten upset about it. Can you workout without it? Sure. But I do not recommend it and most people figure it out pretty quick.
> We keep lots of gear in stock and I make sure we are always competitive on our pricing but have zero problem with someone getting their own.
> ...


So, I'll talk about my own program, since that's easy for me. 

Students need a black dogi. I don't require it up front, and will allow them to train in whatever for the first few classes. After 2-3 weeks, it's time to show up in a uniform. If they already have a white one (and many do, since that's what the Karate classes wear), I'm okay with that uniform (with whatever patches if they're still training) until they have been around a few months. I've never set a specific standard on this, and if pressed would say they absolutely must have a uniform (white or black or something else conservative) by the time they finish the Foundation (about 4-10 weeks) and a black one before they test for yellow (about a year). 

They'll also need basic sparring gear. For starters, that just means something for their hands. A few months in, add the mouthguard. Much later, they'll be required to have shin guards, but that's a ways off.

All of this they can order through me, or not. I prefer they order through me for consistency and quality control, but I make no money on the sales.

So, my spiel to them is something like this, "Classes are $40 per month - $80 if you want to also train Karate. You'll also need a uniform pretty quickly, though you can start without one. If you buy that from me, it'll cost between $20 and $45, depending what you pick, and you're welcome to buy elsewhere as long as you meet our standards. You'll need sparring equipment, and the cheap stuff is fine for starters. You can borrow gloves here for a few weeks, but you'll want to wear your own sweaty gloves pretty soon - the cheapest stuff is under $20. There's more gear to buy later, and like with the uniforms and gloves, I get a discount on them and pass that entire discount on to you. I make nothing on gear sales."

That last part will change at some point, and I'll be saying, "I get a discount and pass most of that discount on to you. We appreciate the couple of extra dollars we make if you buy from us, but that's not really what we're here for."


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> All fees should be presented when someone signs up.  Not “hiding” them but not disclosing them unless asked, when typical people may not realize they need to ask, is hiding them.


This is kind of my thinking. We can hide fees without meaning to. I don't go into detail, but I do point out there are some costs, and try to give some idea where to find them or what they are.

My first NGA instructor just kept fees posted on the wall beside the door. All visitors and students could look at them under the 8.5" x 11" sign that said "DOJO FEES" in big type.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Well I was thinking you could combine the stripe system I mentioned with the tips.  So white, 5 tips and then white/yellow.  Then 5 tips and then white/purple.  And so on.  Even better, different colors of tips (5 yellow tips, 5 purple tips, etc).
> 
> And after all those combinations, you get the vertical striped belts, like the BJJ red + white belt, but in every color combination.  Then belts that are half-and-half horizontal stripe.  Then belts that are checkered.
> 
> Oh, and we could add thickness in, too.  After you've gotten your brown and black checkered belt with a full rainbow of tips...it's time for the thick white belt.  And start from scratch.


That's genius. I can order belts in 1.5", 1.75", and 2". If they wash and shrink the belt, they drop back down an entire set of ranks!!


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That's genius. I can order belts in 1.5", 1.75", and 2". If they wash and shrink the belt, they drop back down an entire set of ranks!!



If you really want to start being obtuse, we can even use a different brand as a soft reset.  Beginners get Mooto, intermediate get Century, and Advanced get Fuji.

Then there's the obvious different shades.  Not just red belt, but also crimson, cinnabar, ruby, scarlet...

Oh, and different lengths relative to your height.  If you're a size 4 belt, then advanced is a size 5 belt.  Longer tails means higher rank.  And if you gain or lose weight and your tail length changes, you have to start over.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> This was the question I was asking.  Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"?  Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?


Both. Always.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Bear, how do y'all do it? Do you even do belts?



Yeah. We do jits. Otherwise there are mma or kickboxing rankings that exist. We don't do them though.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> This was the question I was asking.  Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"?  Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?



You would think so legally.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You would think so legally.



Let me expand on what I mean.

*Scenario 1*
Master:  Welcome to our dojang.  Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95.  Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test.  Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms.  Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup.  Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60. 

*Scenario 2*
Master:  Welcome to our dojang.  Our tuition is $100/month, but there will be other fees that come up from time to time when you need to do a belt test or purchase new equipment.
Parent:  How much is a belt test?
Master:  They start at $40 and get a little more expensive at the higher belts, but then the black belt test is $700.

In both scenarios you're honest, but in Scenario 1 you basically overload them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Let me expand on what I mean.
> 
> *Scenario 1*
> Master:  Welcome to our dojang.  Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95.  Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test.  Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms.  Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup.  Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.
> ...


I’m okay with either. The first is a bit too much to process. The second is better, especially if it were to include a mention of where the fees can be found.


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## wab25 (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Let me expand on what I mean.
> 
> *Scenario 1*
> Master:  Welcome to our dojang.  Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95.  Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test.  Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms.  Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup.  Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.
> ...


I would take the info in Scenario 1, and put it on an info sheet. Then when you chat with folks, use #2 above, but hand them the info sheet with the fee schedule. Especially since you are talking about a school with 100 or more students.

In my school, things are much simpler:

We charge $40 per month, which all goes to rent the space. No contracts, pay as you go. You need to join the national organization which is $60 per year. The complicated part is that on the month you pay the organization, you get to skip the dojo dues. No testing fees until black belt... no test until black belt... every class is a "test." When you are ready you get the belt. At black belt, the organization charges $100 which includes your back ground screening, all black belt tests are $100.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Let me expand on what I mean.
> 
> *Scenario 1*
> Master:  Welcome to our dojang.  Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95.  Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test.  Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms.  Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup.  Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.
> ...


Im fine with number two specifically because you mention the extra fees and what theyre based around. Ideally, you would say the second ome, and have a sheet with all the information from scenario one that you inform them of before they sign up. Then they can decide if they want to look at it or not.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I would take the info in Scenario 1, and put it on an info sheet. Then when you chat with folks, use #2 above, but hand them the info sheet with the fee schedule. Especially since you are talking about a school with 100 or more students.
> 
> In my school, things are much simpler:
> 
> We charge $40 per month, which all goes to rent the space. No contracts, pay as you go. You need to join the national organization which is $60 per year. The complicated part is that on the month you pay the organization, you get to skip the dojo dues. No testing fees until black belt... no test until black belt... every class is a "test." When you are ready you get the belt. At black belt, the organization charges $100 which includes your back ground screening, all black belt tests are $100.


Just curious, may I ask which organization you join?


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> since girls don't require a groin cup.



They need a chest guard though.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> They need a chest guard though.



It's World Taekwondo rules.  Everyone needs a chestguard.

Although that's an awkward question I've had to answer with "ask your parents."  The question is "why doesn't she need a groin cup?"


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## JR 137 (Feb 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Anything can be abused, but I think this approach is particularly ripe.  There is an incentive to get the student to a point where they are paying fees again.  So a strong temptation exists to promote faster than the student is ready or merits.  Get a black belt wrapped around that kid so we can start charging fees again.  Tell his parents how much of a gifted protege he is, to justify a black belt in a year and a half or two years.
> 
> And now we've got one more lousy black belt who doesn’t deserve it.


I’ve told this story about a local McDojo several times, but it definitely needs repeating here...

There’s a TKD dojang a few blocks away from the academic school I used to teach at. Quite a few of my students trained there. They only have black belt plans; no monthly tuition rate available (but you can finance the plan monthly for a fee). It was around $4k. Tuition, fees, tests, belts, etc. we’re all included. Basically everything besides uniforms, sparring gear, weapons. They say the average time to 1st dan is 5-6 years for kids. $4k in tuition and testing fees for 5 years is a pretty good price in my area.

Most of my students who trained there were black belts. I taught grades 5-8. I think the longest any of them took to make black belt was 2 years. Somehow they were all hard working and talented students who progressed way faster than the average. Sure. Half of those kids could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. A few did demos at our school’s talent show. To put it nicely, there wasn’t much MA talent. 

The McDojo has a great racket going - tell them they’re getting a great deal, then tell them they’re progressing way faster than normal and stroke their egos. Guess what happens when they pass that black belt test? The belt itself costs $300 (fine print says test, not actual belt). And then it’s on to the 2nd dan plan. Average time is 3 years. Somehow all those prodigies did it in a year. New belt, new fee, and new plan. 

Like used car salesmen say - “there’s an a$$ for every seat.”


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve told this story about a local McDojo several times, but it definitely needs repeating here...
> 
> There’s a TKD dojang a few blocks away from the academic school I used to teach at. Quite a few of my students trained there. They only have black belt plans; no monthly tuition rate available (but you can finance the plan monthly for a fee). It was around $4k. Tuition, fees, tests, belts, etc. we’re all included. Basically everything besides uniforms, sparring gear, weapons. They say the average time to 1st dan is 5-6 years for kids. $4k in tuition and testing fees for 5 years is a pretty good price in my area.
> 
> ...


As I am fond of saying, jeezuz.  Just...Jeezuz.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

Something to add-while it's not a dealbreaker for me if a dojo/school has belt testing fees, from the student perspective I'd much rather that be a part of the monthly fees. Even if I end up paying more in the long run.

The reason for that is consistency. I have a monthly budget that I rely on, so I want to know signing up to something how much something costs. Let's say that I budget for a school that's $100 per month, with testing fees of $100, approximately every four months. That comes out to about $125 per month. So in reality I'd be putting that extra 25 away anyway. Now if I'm ready to test in 3 months, I all of a sudden have to come up with the extra 25 in my budget (which for me is not a big deal, but for some it's an extra hassle), or delay my own testing for an extra month to match my budget. Which has nothing to do with my martial arts ability. If it takes me 5 or 6 months, that's extra money that I put away, which I don't know if I can take out, or should leave in case of a future month where I get ready to test early. Add in extra times or increasing rates as the belt level increases, and it gets more complicated for my budget.

I would assume this variation would also hurt the business as well, since it makes the income more varied, unless they are charging enough extra to add in a buffer.

I also feel like martial arts is alone in this. Essentially the idea behind belts (besides pride and bragging rights), is that every new belt indicates you're more advanced and that you're able to handle more advanced materials. When I played piano, my piano teacher didn't require me to pay for a test to start learning more advanced songs. With bouldering, in places that separate between beginner/intermediate/advanced, you don't have to pay to get evaluated to go on one of the higher levels. The lyra gym near me has different level classes too, and the instructor there from what I understand just informs you when you're ready. It seems unfair to pay for a service/training, and then be limited from more advanced aspects of that training based on your financial concerns when you're already paying for that training.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Something to add-while it's not a dealbreaker for me if a dojo/school has belt testing fees, from the student perspective I'd much rather that be a part of the monthly fees. Even if I end up paying more in the long run.
> 
> The reason for that is consistency. I have a monthly budget that I rely on, so I want to know signing up to something how much something costs. Let's say that I budget for a school that's $100 per month, with testing fees of $100, approximately every four months. That comes out to about $125 per month. So in reality I'd be putting that extra 25 away anyway. Now if I'm ready to test in 3 months, I all of a sudden have to come up with the extra 25 in my budget (which for me is not a big deal, but for some it's an extra hassle), or delay my own testing for an extra month to match my budget. Which has nothing to do with my martial arts ability. If it takes me 5 or 6 months, that's extra money that I put away, which I don't know if I can take out, or should leave in case of a future month where I get ready to test early. Add in extra times or increasing rates as the belt level increases, and it gets more complicated for my budget.
> 
> ...



This is a direct marketing scheme hard at work. It is not just in MA's but you dangle a carrot and people want to take a bite. One of the best things I like about my GM's way of teaching is that he never limits or segregates classes. Does it make it harder on the teacher(s)? You bet. But there are many more pro's than cons in my opinion. 

I would say you are the exception, not the rule in your testing time logic. More people take longer to test than the minimum test time. So you could conceivably bank one testing cost in a few belts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I would say you are the exception, not the rule in your testing time logic. More people take longer to test than the minimum test time. So you could conceivably bank one testing cost in a few belts.


I'm not suggesting I normally test early-it took me over 15 years to get black belt in my main (or former main I guess) art. Average seemed to be around 5-10 years. In other arts I've gotten it earlier than others-but I've never trained anywhere where there was a "minimum", so much as an average time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This is a direct marketing scheme hard at work. It is not just in MA's but you dangle a carrot and people want to take a bite. One of the best things I like about my GM's way of teaching is that he never limits or segregates classes. Does it make it harder on the teacher(s)? You bet. But there are many more pro's than cons in my opinion.


I think there are certain things where having advanced classes works. Math and computer science, as the most obvious examples.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I also feel like martial arts is alone in this. Essentially the idea behind belts (besides pride and bragging rights), is that every new belt indicates you're more advanced and that you're able to handle more advanced materials. When I played piano, my piano teacher didn't require me to pay for a test to start learning more advanced songs. With bouldering, in places that separate between beginner/intermediate/advanced, you don't have to pay to get evaluated to go on one of the higher levels. The lyra gym near me has different level classes too, and the instructor there from what I understand just informs you when you're ready. It seems unfair to pay for a service/training, and then be limited from more advanced aspects of that training based on your financial concerns when you're already paying for that training.



Tell that to my collection of guitars.  Or golf discs.  Or guns.  Or my gaming PC.  Or my lightsaber collection.  Or my...well you get the idea.  A lot of hobbies you can have get more expensive when you get more advanced.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> Tell that to my collection of guitars.  Or golf discs.  Or guns.  Or my gaming PC.  Or my lightsaber collection.  Or my...well you get the idea.  A lot of hobbies you can have get more expensive when you get more advanced.


They can, but that's not a requirement to learn. After buying initial gear, most hobbies don't actually require you to spend extra expenses. 

And even then, those are expenses you're paying for material. Not paying the people you're already paying for the privilege of learning the next part of what you paid them to teach you.


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## wab25 (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Just curious, may I ask which organization you join?


The American Judo and Jujitsu Federation. (AJJF)


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I think there are certain things where having advanced classes works. Math and computer science, as the most obvious examples.


Agree. We have black belt classes twice/month. They are for adult red and black belts only.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> They can, but that's not a requirement to learn. After buying initial gear, most hobbies don't actually require you to spend extra expenses.
> 
> And even then, those are expenses you're paying for material. Not paying the people you're already paying for the privilege of learning the next part of what you paid them to teach you.


Complimentary but not necessary?


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## Ivan (Feb 28, 2020)

wab25 said:


> In my organization, the kyu rank belts are handled strictly by the dojos. The dojos I was a part of, and the school I run... we don't charge anything for belt tests. Some have an actual test, others just award the new belt when the student is ready. We don't even charge the student for the belt. (they are nothing fancy, just a generic belt of the appropriate color)
> 
> For Black Belt, the organization gets involved. They charge $100 for all Black Belt exams. That covers the students background check, and certificate. The tests are done at different venues which usually need to be rented out, there are three examiners, one caller, and someone to read the students kata manual (each student is required to write all their kata down, to create their own manual). The test can take a few hours.
> 
> ...


Every two months we have an official day strictly reserved for testing that takes place during what would be a usual session. You have to have attended at least two months, two sessions per week (or maybe one I don't quite recall) with each session being two hours to be eligible for testing. Our testing consists of a kata (I don't know the Korean equivalent of the word for TKD) that you must perform to a standard based on your current belt and age. The kata you perform is the one designated for your belt. If you are green belt or higher you have to test in sparring as well, except they test you on your ability to 'show off' different techniques - in each round you must perform one normal kick, a slide kick, a jump kick, a spin kick, and jump spin kick. After this you are asked a series of questions with answers you must know such as "what part of the foot do you kick with when performing this kick".

However, our fee is £35-£45 (somewhere around this area). This money covers your testing i.e. we pay for our testing, not the belt. If you fail, you don't get your money back :9


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## KenpoMaster805 (Feb 28, 2020)

In my kenpo class colored belts are 45 bucks then brown belt test is 145 bucks 
The black belt is 245 bucks


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## Buka (Feb 28, 2020)

Never had fees for testing. If you passed, you usually paid the five bucks for belt. For black belts there was no charge. I figured if you made it that far, you should take the five bucks and go celebrate. 

Never had a separate class for blacks belts, they trained with everyone else. It's how they stayed fit. I'm not talking about the body type of a person, some of the guys were bigger than others, I'm referring to fitness, to training shape, to never getting lazy. A lazy black belt....kind of blows my mind when I come across one.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Buka said:


> Never had fees for testing. If you passed, you usually paid the five bucks for belt. For black belts there was no charge. I figured if you made it that far, you should take the five bucks and go celebrate.
> 
> Never had a separate class for blacks belts, they trained with everyone else. It's how they stayed fit. I'm not talking about the body type of a person, some of the guys were bigger than others, I'm referring to fitness, to training shape, to never getting lazy. A lazy black belt....kind of blows my mind when I come across one.



My school has a separate class for belts and age.

Little kids white & yellow
Big kids white & yellow
Kids purple & orange
Adults white->orange
Kids green
Kids blue
Kids red
Adults green->red
Kids black
Adult black


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

Buka said:


> Never had fees for testing. If you passed, you usually paid the five bucks for belt. For black belts there was no charge. I figured if you made it that far, you should take the five bucks and go celebrate.
> 
> Never had a separate class for blacks belts, they trained with everyone else. It's how they stayed fit. I'm not talking about the body type of a person, some of the guys were bigger than others, I'm referring to fitness, to training shape, to never getting lazy. A lazy black belt....kind of blows my mind when I come across one.



To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class. 
We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> My school has a separate class for belts and age.
> 
> Little kids white & yellow
> Big kids white & yellow
> ...


How long is each class?


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## JR 137 (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> My school has a separate class for belts and age.
> 
> Little kids white & yellow
> Big kids white & yellow
> ...


The ability to do that really depends on the number of students. My teacher would like to separate the various ranks a bit, but he doesn’t have the numbers to make it work. He might be able to separate beginner from higher colored belt kids, but it might hurt him too if people’s schedules don’t coincide with the dojo schedule.

We separate kids from adults. Most days the dojo is open, there’s 2 classes - kids followed by adults. One night there’s an adult class followed by black belts. Another night there’s a kata class that has a rank requirement rather than age, followed by an adult class with the same rank requirement. One black belt class every month is for higher ranked black belts, either 3rd and up or 4th and up. The minimum rank allowed in class that month changes between 3rd and 4th and depends on factors unbeknownst to me.


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## JR 137 (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
> We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.





dvcochran said:


> To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
> We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.





dvcochran said:


> To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
> We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.


That’s pretty much how ours is. There’s a black belt only class one night a week. I’ve been in vey, very few classes without any black belts there (except the nights where my class is followed by black belt class).

We are very black belt-heavy in our adult membership though, so that’s partially responsible. But even if there was another black belt or two classes, I’m pretty sure they’d still regularly be in the general adult classes too. It’s just  our school’s culture.

Edit: Wow. Somehow quoted you 3 times, yet the edit only shows once, so I can’t delete the redundancy


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> How long is each class?



Kids are 50 minutes, adults (and kids black belts) are 1 hour.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> The ability to do that really depends on the number of students. My teacher would like to separate the various ranks a bit, but he doesn’t have the numbers to make it work. He might be able to separate beginner from higher colored belt kids, but it might hurt him too if people’s schedules don’t coincide with the dojo schedule.
> 
> We separate kids from adults. Most days the dojo is open, there’s 2 classes - kids followed by adults. One night there’s an adult class followed by black belts. Another night there’s a kata class that has a rank requirement rather than age, followed by an adult class with the same rank requirement. One black belt class every month is for higher ranked black belts, either 3rd and up or 4th and up. The minimum rank allowed in class that month changes between 3rd and 4th and depends on factors unbeknownst to me.


We do not segregate classes at all. Any one can come to any class. The makeup of class as far as kids/adults will dictate how a class goes a bit. What does this mean? Not a ton. Everybody lines and works on kibon (gibon) together. As a person reaches their belt level technically they sit down until every belt level is satisfied. Depending on class size and assuming there are enough higher rank people we will break up into groups to work on poomsae. Depending on where the class goes next we may go into one/two/three steps or sparring.  
A kid heavy class may be more physically exhausting drills than say a class that is all adults. The adults are going to get their workout to be sure. But it will be more intellectual/philosophical.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> Kids are 50 minutes, adults (and kids black belts) are 1 hour.


All of our classes are 1 1/2 hours. If there is not a proceeding class we usually run long.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> All of our classes are 1 1/2 hours. If there is not a proceeding class we usually run long.



We ran 60-90 minute classes, no restrictions on age/rank. And we tended to run long too, if someone didn't remind us.
I did hold classes that were invite only, and not regularly scheduled. Mostly because they were dealing with things that might be considered out of place when children are present. So the classes were adults and kids whose parents had given explicit permission for these classes.


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## Buka (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
> We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.



This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.

The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.

I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did hold classes that were invite only, and not regularly scheduled. Mostly because they were dealing with things that might be considered out of place when children are present. So the classes were adults and kids whose parents had given explicit permission for these classes.



Out of curiosity, what would be considered out of place for children?

We don't do hand grabs in the kids classes at my school because the kids might hurt each other (or hurt themselves resisting).  Is that what you mean?



Buka said:


> This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.
> 
> The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.



I think you and I may have had this conversation in another thread before, but I can see a couple reasons why I wouldn't train this way.

Some techniques build on each other.  Like going from side kick, to back kick, to hook kick, to jump spinning hook kick.  By drilling the side kick they're starting to learn all 3, but they're not going to do back kick until a few months in and a hook kick until further down the line.
Information overload.  I'd rather start with the higher percentage techniques.
Although this is something I was thinking about.  At my old TKD school, we learned wrist grab escapes.  At my new school, we learn wrist lock techniques to deal with those situations, and we don't actually teach the escapes.  (I will sometimes teach them to the kids, who don't learn the wristlocks).  I'm looking forward to when I open my own school, and one of the things I'm thinking is I would rather teach the escapes first.  This would have the benefit of them learning a higher percentage move first, one they could actually apply without a long time of training.  However, it would put them a few months behind in learning the actual wrist locks.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> Out of curiosity, what would be considered out of place for children?



How about blunt discussions of sexual assault and/or options for killing someone? Probably not appropriate for an 8 year old. And something to get approval for from the parents of a 15 year old, too, I think.



> We don't do hand grabs in the kids classes at my school because the kids might hurt each other (or hurt themselves resisting).  Is that what you mean?



Grappling sessions can be an issue too, when working with kids. Especially if it's a small group, where you might be faced with the choice between a mixed gender pairing vs a large size/age/experience disparity.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

Buka said:


> This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.
> 
> The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.
> 
> I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.



I feel where it helps the most is when chaining techniques/combinations together. We throw a lot at a person from jump. But there is a value in sorting out that information overload themselves.
Do I think some TKD has gotten complex and sacrifices practicality? Yes. Somewhere in that is the attempt to stretch out the curriculum and keep people working with interest out longer. As long as it is done the right way I don't think that is a bad thing.
That said, there is a simple beauty in a person learning the four basic punches.


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## JR 137 (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> All of our classes are 1 1/2 hours. If there is not a proceeding class we usually run long.


Our kids classes go 45 minutes. Adults are scheduled for an hour. The only adult classes that end on time are on Wednesday night when black belt class follows it (that class reportedly never ended in less than 90 minutes); and on Saturday morning, because kids class immediately follows it. Adult class finishes when it finishes. If my teacher’s onto something or we’re in a zone, we’ll keep going.  Sometimes people have to leave at the scheduled time (they’ll politely say they’ve got to head out) and my teacher will just politely excuse them while the rest of us keep at it. 

I love my dojo. It’s so not the whole commercialized type of place. We’re like a family. A few who beats each other up, but a loving family nonetheless


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## JR 137 (Feb 28, 2020)

Buka said:


> This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.
> 
> The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.
> 
> I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.


If you save them for later in their careers, you then run into an issue we bring up every now and then - at higher ranks, there’s a kata or two that are pretty physically demanding. One in particular has some forward and backward rolls, kicks from the ground, etc. It’s taught at 4th dan. The 4th dans laugh and say they always wanted to learn that kata, but by the time they reached that rank, they were too old and broken down to be able to do it the way it’s supposed to be done.

The highest level kata in Shotokan is Unsu. Same thing happens often enough to them too.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Our kids classes go 45 minutes. Adults are scheduled for an hour. The only adult classes that end on time are on Wednesday night when black belt class follows it (that class reportedly never ended in less than 90 minutes); and on Saturday morning, because kids class immediately follows it. Adult class finishes when it finishes. If my teacher’s onto something or we’re in a zone, we’ll keep going.  Sometimes people have to leave at the scheduled time (they’ll politely say they’ve got to head out) and my teacher will just politely excuse them while the rest of us keep at it.
> 
> I love my dojo. It’s so not the whole commercialized type of place. We’re like a family. A few who beats each other up, but a loving family nonetheless


Wish I could click 'love' for this post. You description is exactly the way I believe a dojo/dojang should be.


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> How about blunt discussions of sexual assault and/or options for killing someone? Probably not appropriate for an 8 year old. And something to get approval for from the parents of a 15 year old, too, I think.



Ah, yeah we don't really get into that in the dojang.



Dirty Dog said:


> Grappling sessions can be an issue too, when working with kids. Especially if it's a small group, where you might be faced with the choice between a mixed gender pairing vs a large size/age/experience disparity.



I mean, a lot of grappling schools have kids classes.  There's even a specific rank structure for kids in BJJ.  When I did wrestling in middle school, there was no girl's league, so the girls wrestled with the guys.



dvcochran said:


> I feel where it helps the most is when chaining techniques/combinations together. We throw a lot at a person from jump. But there is a value in sorting out that information overload themselves.
> Do I think some TKD has gotten complex and sacrifices practicality? Yes. Somewhere in that is the attempt to stretch out the curriculum and keep people working with interest out longer. As long as it is done the right way I don't think that is a bad thing.
> That said, there is a simple beauty in a person learning the four basic punches.



What are the 4 basic punches in your curriculum?


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## Tez3 (Feb 29, 2020)

When people are saying 'children's classes', what is the youngest they take? I can't imagine having 3 year olds in with adults for example.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Something to add-while it's not a dealbreaker for me if a dojo/school has belt testing fees, from the student perspective I'd much rather that be a part of the monthly fees. Even if I end up paying more in the long run.
> 
> The reason for that is consistency. I have a monthly budget that I rely on, so I want to know signing up to something how much something costs. Let's say that I budget for a school that's $100 per month, with testing fees of $100, approximately every four months. That comes out to about $125 per month. So in reality I'd be putting that extra 25 away anyway. Now if I'm ready to test in 3 months, I all of a sudden have to come up with the extra 25 in my budget (which for me is not a big deal, but for some it's an extra hassle), or delay my own testing for an extra month to match my budget. Which has nothing to do with my martial arts ability. If it takes me 5 or 6 months, that's extra money that I put away, which I don't know if I can take out, or should leave in case of a future month where I get ready to test early. Add in extra times or increasing rates as the belt level increases, and it gets more complicated for my budget.
> 
> ...


I'll go a step further and say that I don't like the training (including the testing) to be more expensive for the higher ranks. I prefer the opposite. I have to put more effort into newer students, and they require more attention. Advanced students can help with newer students, often have their own things they want to work on (so need less of my attention and direct guidance on what to do next). And having them around helps attract new students.

When I had my program on its own (as opposed to inside someone else's dojo), I never raised rates for existing students. When fees went up, they kept paying their original fee. This was my way of creating a natural progression of lower fees for folks who'd been around longer.

On a counter-note, though, I can see the benefit in lower monthly fees, and being able to save up (if necessary) for testing fees. But part of that may be because my income has always been inconsistent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> Kids are 50 minutes, adults (and kids black belts) are 1 hour.


I've never been able to get used to classes shorter than 90 minutes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

Buka said:


> This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.
> 
> The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.
> 
> I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.


I toyed with this. The traditional method is a progressive curriculum. I go back and forth on my preference and tend to introduce techniques to students (once they get a foundation under them) when someone in the room needs to learn that technique.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> Although this is something I was thinking about. At my old TKD school, we learned wrist grab escapes. At my new school, we learn wrist lock techniques to deal with those situations, and we don't actually teach the escapes. (I will sometimes teach them to the kids, who don't learn the wristlocks). I'm looking forward to when I open my own school, and one of the things I'm thinking is I would rather teach the escapes first. This would have the benefit of them learning a higher percentage move first, one they could actually apply without a long time of training. However, it would put them a few months behind in learning the actual wrist locks.


In my opinion, the escapes are the foundation for the locks. If you can't do the escape, you're not controlling the situation well enough to have any hope of a lock. And the escape's mechanic - even when it fails to escape - sets up a wide range of "next" options.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> When people are saying 'children's classes', what is the youngest they take? I can't imagine having 3 year olds in with adults for example.


I think the youngest we ever mixed with adults was 13 years old. And that's a bad mismatch in almost all cases in grappling.


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## dvcochran (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> What are the 4 basic punches in your curriculum?



Jab, cross, hook, uppercut.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 29, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> When people are saying 'children's classes', what is the youngest they take? I can't imagine having 3 year olds in with adults for example.



We don't put a number on it. How about 'old enough to pay attention during an hour long class"?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> We don't put a number on it. How about 'old enough to pay attention during an hour long class"?


Some days, I'm not old enough for that.


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I've never been able to get used to classes shorter than 90 minutes.



I think part of it is because we have so many classes.  Our classes are full, so it's not like we can combine classes to stretch them out.  I don't think kids could get there that much earlier in our earliest classes, and our last ones get out at like 9:00 at night.



Dirty Dog said:


> We don't put a number on it. How about 'old enough to pay attention during an hour long class"?



Our rule is 4 & up, but we do a trial period and maybe 10% of the 4-year-olds get told to grow up a little bit and come back in 6 months (in a little bit nicer tone than that).  Personally, if it were up to me, we'd only be doing 7 & up, with younger being an exception on a case-by-case basis.  The 4-7 year old class (which is 80% 4 and 5 year-olds) is the only class I teach that feels like work.


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## WaterGal (Feb 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Are your BB testing Kukkiwon Dan grades? Do you get a real Kukkiwon certificate (it is easy to verify)? If so a significant portion of the money goes to Kukkiwon. Not certain, but if memory serves $300 for 1st Dan and it goes up for each Dan grade.



As of last year, Kukkiwon charges $70 for 1st dan/poom plus a bank fee, totaling less than $100. However, my understanding is that if you're going through a national organization like USAT or similar for other countries, they tack on an additional fee to process it for you.


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## WaterGal (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's World Taekwondo rules.  Everyone needs a chestguard.
> 
> Although that's an awkward question I've had to answer with "ask your parents."  The question is "why doesn't she need a groin cup?"



The solution we went with was to stock female cups. They're optional for the girls to actually wear, but they do get one with their sparring gear set.


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> The solution we went with was to stock female cups. They're optional for the girls to actually wear, but they do get one with their sparring gear set.



"Why doesn't she have to wear hers?"

Same question.


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## Buka (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think you and I may have had this conversation in another thread before, but I can see a couple reasons why I wouldn't train this way.
> 
> Some techniques build on each other.  Like going from side kick, to back kick, to hook kick, to jump spinning hook kick.  By drilling the side kick they're starting to learn all 3, but they're not going to do back kick until a few months in and a hook kick until further down the line.
> Information overload.  I'd rather start with the higher percentage techniques.



Yeah, we've probably had this conversation before, we've had a lot of great conversations.

Wallace was down the dojo one day and he pointed out something to me. He said "the first time you teach a white belt how to side kick he throws a nearly perfect hook kick." And I'm thinking to myself "say what?" And he says "call one of those new white belts over here." So, one comes over. He tells the kid to throw a side kick, which he does. As we all know, white belts have little control over their body movement, and usually little to no flexibility. The kid, all excited that this guy in our dojo calls on him, snaps out a side kick, and instead of bringing that leg back to position - what many call chambering or re-chambering, instead the kid's lower leg retracts with the heel coming back towards the butt) "Wallace says, "See that, nearly perfect hook kick."

Wallace always said that a hook kick is a thrown sidekick, meant to miss towards the toe side of the foot - and then the heel snaps back towards your butt, like a white belt who doesn't know how to really sidekick - hitting the opponent in the face.

And I always thought to myself, "son of a gun, ain't that interesting?"


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

@WaterGal @dvcochran 

I just looked it up, and while I couldn't find it from the Kukkiwon site directly, I found $70 to be quoted from quite a few different forums and blogs as the price, and it goes up by varying amounts after that.


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## dvcochran (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> @WaterGal @dvcochran
> 
> I just looked it up, and while I couldn't find it from the Kukkiwon site directly, I found $70 to be quoted from quite a few different forums and blogs as the price, and it goes up by varying amounts after that.


There are multiple levels of the instructor and coach (used to be called trainer) courses. If it has not changed coaches go A through E. There used to be instructor and master instructor courses. 
If I had to guess that price is the 1st course for one or both types. Travel/food/lodging cost more than the course does for most folks. 

What was your source?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

Buka said:


> Yeah, we've probably had this conversation before, we've had a lot of great conversations.
> 
> Wallace was down the dojo one day and he pointed out something to me. He said "the first time you teach a white belt how to side kick he throws a nearly perfect hook kick." And I'm thinking to myself "say what?" And he says "call one of those new white belts over here." So, one comes over. He tells the kid to throw a side kick, which he does. As we all know, white belts have little control over their body movement, and usually little to no flexibility. The kid, all excited that this guy in our dojo calls on him, snaps out a side kick, and instead of bringing that leg back to position - what many call chambering or re-chambering, instead the kid's lower leg retracts with the heel coming back towards the butt) "Wallace says, "See that, nearly perfect hook kick."
> 
> ...


And now I know what the heck a hook kick is.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 29, 2020)

Buka said:


> Yeah, we've probably had this conversation before, we've had a lot of great conversations.
> 
> Wallace was down the dojo one day and he pointed out something to me. He said "the first time you teach a white belt how to side kick he throws a nearly perfect hook kick." And I'm thinking to myself "say what?" And he says "call one of those new white belts over here." So, one comes over. He tells the kid to throw a side kick, which he does. As we all know, white belts have little control over their body movement, and usually little to no flexibility. The kid, all excited that this guy in our dojo calls on him, snaps out a side kick, and instead of bringing that leg back to position - what many call chambering or re-chambering, instead the kid's lower leg retracts with the heel coming back towards the butt) "Wallace says, "See that, nearly perfect hook kick."
> 
> ...


That is a great way to explain the kick. 
I have also used the expression that the power and effectiveness is on the negative side of the arc. Nerdy, I know. In other words, you can either wallop the chin with the heel or pull the head back with the foot.


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## JR 137 (Feb 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Some days, I'm not old enough for that.


I initially hit agree, but I changed it to like. By agree, I was thinking me too. But then I thought it would be interpreted as agreeing you’re not old enough. 

And now I just confused myself


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> There are multiple levels of the instructor and coach (used to be called trainer) courses. If it has not changed coaches go A through E. There used to be instructor and master instructor courses.
> If I had to guess that price is the 1st course for one or both types. Travel/food/lodging cost more than the course does for most folks.
> 
> What was your source?



Uh...I think we're talking about 2 different things.  That was black belt ranks, not instructor and master certifications.

FAQs is my source, but I also found an old post from 2003 on here, some posts on reddit, quora, and other sites where the answers were "$70" as far as how much KKW gets for your 1st dan certificate.


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## dvcochran (Feb 29, 2020)

skribs said:


> Uh...I think we're talking about 2 different things.  That was black belt ranks, not instructor and master certifications.
> 
> FAQs is my source, but I also found an old post from 2003 on here, some posts on reddit, quora, and other sites where the answers were "$70" as far as how much KKW gets for your 1st dan certificate.


My mistake. I saw where others also said $70 so I expect that is correct.


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## Buka (Feb 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think the youngest we ever mixed with adults was 13 years old. And that's a bad mismatch in almost all cases in grappling.



I didn’t take kids under the age of eleven. But there were exceptions.
Did you ever watch the TV show Survivor? There’s a player who’s been on that show multiple times, Boston Rob.

His parents are friends of my family and he’s the nephew of my best friend since childhood and nephew of my first black belt.

He came when he was six. And the smallest six year old I’ve ever seen to this day. 
He trained with both the kids and adult classes. It was almost like he was a mascot.

But he did fantastic. Nice little boy, heck of a fighter.


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

Buka said:


> I didn’t take kids under the age of eleven. But there were exceptions.
> Did you ever watch the TV show Survivor? There’s a player who’s been on that show multiple times, Boston Rob.
> 
> His parents are friends of my family and he’s the nephew of my best friend since childhood and nephew of my first black belt.
> ...



I remember practicing my hand grabs against a small 6 year old in family class one day.  It's the type of technique where you pull their arm up and spin under their arm to set it up.  I had to crouch down like in a Shaolin form to do my handgrabs on him.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2020)

Buka said:


> I didn’t take kids under the age of eleven. But there were exceptions.
> Did you ever watch the TV show Survivor? There’s a player who’s been on that show multiple times, Boston Rob.
> 
> His parents are friends of my family and he’s the nephew of my best friend since childhood and nephew of my first black belt.
> ...


There are some kids I miss from back when I taught kids. Not many, but there are some. Some because they were great to teach, and some because they were just adorable kids and nice to have around.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> I remember practicing my hand grabs against a small 6 year old in family class one day.  It's the type of technique where you pull their arm up and spin under their arm to set it up.  I had to crouch down like in a Shaolin form to do my handgrabs on him.


Sounds like me practicing with the Hobbit.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There are some kids I miss from back when I taught kids. Not many, but there are some. Some because they were great to teach, and some because they were just adorable kids and nice to have around.


The mother of a 4 year old came to the school and talked to me about her child with Autism. She had been told he would never be able to go to regular public school. We had a Long talk about her son and mutually agreed to let him a try a few classes just to see how it would go. I had never taken in a 4 year old. Mikey had barely spoke a word ever and was totally disconnected. Sadly, they had started him on medications. 
The first class was 'easy' and he did not do a great deal but followed directions well and was not afraid. Second class was better, third class was better than the last. I met with his mom again and said I think she should let him try, cautioning her that the material and expectation would get progressively greater.
It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen watching Mikey blossom. He responded to every aspect of class. By the end of the first year he would have a conversation with you better than many adults would. He was off all his medication before he turned 6. He was/is excellent in his technique and absorbed material like a sponge.  
When he was 7 he went to his first AAU tournament, and cleaned house with three golds. Along with the great support he got form his parents,  Mikey turned into a 'normal', healthy, happy kid with exception talent. Mikey grew into an excellent adult who also went into the engineering field, is married with children, and now lives in Texas. 
Mike still trains and we speak several times a year.
Some of by best MA's memories.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The mother of a 4 year old came to the school and talked to me about her child with Autism. She had been told he would never be able to go to regular public school. We had a Long talk about her son and mutually agreed to let him a try a few classes just to see how it would go. I had never taken in a 4 year old. Mikey had barely spoke a word ever and was totally disconnected. Sadly, they had started him on medications.
> The first class was 'easy' and he did not do a great deal but followed directions well and was not afraid. Second class was better, third class was better than the last. I met with his mom again and said I think she should let him try, cautioning her that the material and expectation would get progressively greater.
> It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen watching Mikey blossom. He responded to every aspect of class. By the end of the first year he would have a conversation with you better than many adults would. He was off all his medication before he turned 6. He was/is excellent in his technique and absorbed material like a sponge.
> When he was 7 he went to his first AAU tournament, and cleaned house with three golds. Along with the great support he got form his parents,  Mikey turned into a 'normal', healthy, happy kid with exception talent. Mikey grew into an excellent adult who also went into the engineering field, is married with children, and now lives in Texas.
> ...



Unfortunately, that's not how it always goes.  We had one kid who was nonverbal when he started, and barely speaks now.  When he counts, he used to just count "2...2...2...2...2..."  Now he counts "2...3...2...3...2...3..."

Anyway, this guy is do defiant and stubborn.  He likes playing the games, but not the actual martial arts training.  So we'll do the warmup where they line up to kick a target, and he's fine with that.  But after we sit down and stretch, he doesn't want to stand up.  He'll do the punches and kicks, but as soon as we move onto blocks he'll just put his hands over his ears and stop doing anything at all.

A few weeks ago, this kid doesn't even come into class.  His brother goes in, but he wants to sit with his Mom.  Well, my Master set up a game, and that's when he wanted in.  Unfortunately, one of the other instructors didn't realize he had been sitting out (she thought he had just gone to the bathroom), so she let him come in.  As soon as the game was over, he went right back to sit with his Mom.  I let the other instructor know what was going on, as well as the Master's wife (since the Master was still leading).  He tried to do that again another day.  He got kicked out early on because he wouldn't participate.  He tried to come in at the end of class (just walk in without permission) and I made him sit out.  He ended up crying, but if you don't put in the work you don't get to play the games.  

The funny thing is whenever I've kicked a kid out because they're not listening or following the rules, the parents tend to thank me after class.  I guess being a martial arts instructor is different than being a schoolteacher, where if you discipline a kid the parents come in breathing fire and brimstone that you would dare punish their perfect little angel.

But it sounds like Mikey is completely different from this kid.  We've got some in that age that are a delight to work with.  But man, some of them can be frustrating!


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> She had been told he would never be able to go to regular public school.



Do you have SEN ( special educational needs) assessments which allow children to go to school by making any necessary arrangements in the school ie one to one helpers etc?

Is putting autistic children on meds a normal thing? I've known a lot of autistic children from one activity or another  but never on any meds just for autism.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> Anyway, this guy is do defiant and stubborn. He likes playing the games, but not the actual martial arts training.




How old is this child?


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> How old is this child?



4.

We have a lot of 4 year olds that don't exhibit this behavior, though.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> 4.
> 
> We have a lot of 4 year olds that don't exhibit this behavior, though.




Four year olds are toddlers really, much too young for formal classes in anything.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Do you have SEN ( special educational needs) assessments which allow children to go to school by making any necessary arrangements in the school ie one to one helpers etc?
> 
> Is putting autistic children on meds a normal thing? I've known a lot of autistic children from one activity or another  but never on any meds just for autism.


This was in the late 80's. It was a time when the word autistic was not even commonly used. Mikey was classified mentally retarded. 
I imagine the school system has gotten better at accommodating special needs kids. I do not know it we have SEN in our systems. Honestly, I assumed medication was a normal part of treatment. Again, I do not know for certain and I hope things have changed in that respect.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Four year olds are toddlers really, much too young for formal classes in anything.



Most of our 4 year olds do fine.  I wanna say probably around 25% of our black belts started at 4.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> Most of our 4 year olds do fine.  I wanna say probably around 25% of our black belts started at 4.



However if they don't start academic education until 5 or 6 because educational experts don't consider their motor skills and cognitive functions up to formal education until then, why take such young children in martial arts classes? 
What age do you start giving them black belts?


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Mikey was classified mentally retarded.



Poor kid, I'm glad things worked out though. Autism isn't new though, first recognised in 1910 and Asperger's in 1944. The first school for autistic children here in the UK was set up in the 1970s, my son was at school in the 70s and there were autistic children at the same school.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> However if they don't start academic education until 5 or 6 because educational experts don't consider their motor skills and cognitive functions up to formal education until then, why take such young children in martial arts classes?
> What age do you start giving them black belts?



When they complete the curriculum.  Youngest we've had was 8, but most are at least 10-11.

A lot of kids go to pre-K schooling.  A lot more are homeschooled before Kindergarten.  There's lots of activities for younger kids to develop motor skills and cognitive functions.  Personally, I was capable of doing the alphabet forwards and backwards when I was 2 years old.  Then you've got kids like this:






That kid is 5, not 4, but you don't get that good instantly.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> A lot of kids go to pre-K schooling. A lot more are homeschooled before Kindergarten. There's lots of activities for younger kids to develop motor skills and cognitive functions. Personally, I was capable of doing the alphabet forwards and backwards when I was 2 years old. Then you've got kids like this:




Basically you take 'elite' children, those with parents who are willing to pay for schooling and martial arts etc.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Basically you take 'elite' children, those with parents who are willing to pay for schooling and martial arts etc.



You're ignoring that some of these were home-schooled.  But yes, we only take students who's parents are willing to pay for martial arts.  That's kind of the point.  If they weren't willing to pay, we wouldn't be able to provide the service.


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## JR 137 (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Basically you take 'elite' children, those with parents who are willing to pay for schooling and martial arts etc.


Not the most fair assessment. The school is a business, and as such needs to make money. It’s not a free, community service type place. Just because they’re charging and making a profit while not letting some in for free doesn’t mean they’re doing anything wrong. Everyone where I train pays. Without it, the doors don’t stay open.

Parents paying for their kids doesn’t make them “elite.” Some of the parents (and adults) where I train are struggling financially, yet training is a priority that they make room for in their budget. Everyone’s got their priorities.


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## Buka (Mar 1, 2020)

One of my oldest, dearest friends here has four kids. His only son, James, never spoke one word until he was almost six.

When I asked my buddy about his son he told me “I figure he has nothing to say yet.”

And I’m thinking he has no idea what he’s dealing with, or perhaps more appropriately NOT dealing with.

James graduated college last year, has a big shot job with the state and now has decided to go to medical school.

Life sure is a trip sometimes.


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## JR 137 (Mar 1, 2020)

Buka said:


> One of my oldest, dearest friends here has four kids. His only son, James, never spoke one word until he was almost six.
> 
> When I asked my buddy about his son he told me “I figure he has nothing to say yet.”
> 
> ...


Some of my most gifted students were autistic. It’s quite common for people with autism to have very high intelligence. The issues with people with autism are mainly social, not cognitive.

We have a few autistic adults in our dojo. From what I know of the ones whose parents train there as well, they had a lot of social and psychological issues growing up. Their parents claim karate helped immeasurably, and it was one of the few places they really came out of their shell and were happy.

When I first met them, they seemed socially awkward for a little while. Nothing serious, just a little odd. It wasn’t until a few months or so that I found out they are autistic. It wasn’t hidden by any means, but it just wasn’t the topic of conversation. When I found out, I just thought “well now it all makes sense.” They’re the few adults I know who are diagnosed autistic. The rest are kids and teens.

Something I was told in grad school for education - if you know 100 people with autism, then you know 100 people with autism; they don’t fall into very many similarities. While there’s a central theme, the way the individuals present is quite varied. Definitely true in my experience. There’s a huge range within autism, hence it being called the spectrum.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Some of my most gifted students were autistic. It’s quite common for people with autism to have very high intelligence. The issues with people with autism are mainly social, not cognitive.
> 
> We have a few autistic adults in our dojo. From what I know of the ones whose parents train there as well, they had a lot of social and psychological issues growing up. Their parents claim karate helped immeasurably, and it was one of the few places they really came out of their shell and were happy.
> 
> ...



In our small town, especially in the 80's, people could really put an exclamation point on things. Even when they had the best of intentions. I remember getting some scathing questions from other parents early on. Mikey was quite withdrawn and very hard to engage. Many times parents felt he was getting preferential treatment and to be honest he may have been at times. But after a short time he found his groove and gelled with the rest of the class very well. Still very quiet and non-emotional, some of which was due to the medication I think. After a couple of years you could see zero social ques or anything. Just a normal, happy kid. Hard working scrapper too.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Some of my most gifted students were autistic. It’s quite common for people with autism to have very high intelligence. The issues with people with autism are mainly social, not cognitive.
> 
> We have a few autistic adults in our dojo. From what I know of the ones whose parents train there as well, they had a lot of social and psychological issues growing up. Their parents claim karate helped immeasurably, and it was one of the few places they really came out of their shell and were happy.
> 
> ...



There's one adult at my dojang who I can't help but wonder if he's mildly autistic.  But he is insanely smart, devilishly hansom, incredibly talented...oh crap, you guys know who I'm talking about, don't you?


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## JR 137 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> There's one adult at my dojang who I can't help but wonder if he's mildly autistic.  But he is insanely smart, devilishly hansom, incredibly talented...oh crap, you guys know who I'm talking about, don't you?


I don’t train at your dojo


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Not the most fair assessment. The school is a business, and as such needs to make money.



and that is exactly my point, taking children as young as 3 and 4 is for business reasons because that's where the money is considered to be.



skribs said:


> You're ignoring that some of these were home-schooled. But yes, we only take students who's parents are willing to pay for martial arts. That's kind of the point. If they weren't willing to pay, we wouldn't be able to provide the service.



 again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business.



The two are not mutually exclusive.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> The two are not mutually exclusive.




If you read it properly I said '_necessarily'_, you can't disagree that many places take children in because they make the money, plenty of people have said it on MT as well. In fact it's been suggested to various posters that they take children classes because of that very point, they make money.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> If you read it properly I said '_necessarily'_, you can't disagree that many places take children in because they make the money, plenty of people have said it on MT as well. In fact it's been suggested to various posters that they take children classes because of that very point, they make money.



When you start the statement with "my point is that you..." it's reasonable to assume this is directed at me, and not a generalized statement.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> When you start the statement with "my point is that you..." it's reasonable to assume this is directed at me, and not a generalized statement.




My point was directed at you, my meaning was that being a business doesn't necessarily mean that the interests of children is the first priority. You are probably keen to see the children learn etc, however are you an employer doing this for the money of an owner doing it for money? Teaching for money isn't something that's wrong of course but it changes the dynamic of the class, when you _have_ to have a specific number of students in a class  to pay your wages. You have to satisfy your customers so they continue paying rather than staying with what you want to teach. Being a business brings compromises that being a non profit organisation doesn't have to consider, one of those is the age of the children in the class.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> My point was directed at you, my meaning was that being a business doesn't necessarily mean that the interests of children is the first priority. You are probably keen to see the children learn etc, however are you an employer doing this for the money of an owner doing it for money? Teaching for money isn't something that's wrong of course but it changes the dynamic of the class, when you _have_ to have a specific number of students in a class  to pay your wages. You have to satisfy your customers so they continue paying rather than staying with what you want to teach. Being a business brings compromises that being a non profit organisation doesn't have to consider, one of those is the age of the children in the class.



Please tell me more about my mindset and my thoughts.  I don't know them as well as you do.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Please tell me more about my mindset and my thoughts.  I don't know them as well as you do.



Show me where I was referring to you personally. You are mixing up the generic 'you' with the personal you. I asked you a question which you choose not to answer, fair enough but no where was I saying anything about your mindset and thoughts. 

What I said is quite true about the business model v the non profit model, there are things you ( generic you) have to think about when you ( generic you) run a business that you ( generic you...do I have to do this every time?) don't have to consider when you ( generic you) run a club or class as a non profit.




Tez3 said:


> My point was directed at you, my meaning was that being a business doesn't necessarily mean that the interests of children is the first priority._(y*ou can't deny the truth of this, it is a neutral statement, not saying you are either wrong or right) *_You are probably keen to see the children learn etc, however are you an employer doing this for the money of an owner doing it for money?* (question, to you personally) *Teaching for money isn't something that's wrong of course but it changes the dynamic of the class, when you _have_ to have a specific number of students in a class  to pay your wages. You have to satisfy your customers so they continue paying rather than staying with what you want to teach.* ( generic you, not you personally) *Being a business brings compromises that being a non profit organisation doesn't have to consider, one of those is the age of the children in the class.


----------



## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Show me where I was referring to you personally. You are mixing up the generic 'you' with the personal you. I asked you a question which you choose not to answer, fair enough but no where was I saying anything about your mindset and thoughts.
> 
> What I said is quite true about the business model v the non profit model, there are things you ( generic you) have to think about when you ( generic you) run a business that you ( generic you...do I have to do this every time?) don't have to consider when you ( generic you) run a club or class as a non profit.



Oh I see.  This is another one of those threads where you spout off a bunch of unfair criticisms to get someone riled up, and then start pulling the "I didn't say that" crap and trying to make it sound like you're just a neutral observer.  Just more of Tez being a bully.

You opened with "My point was directed at you".  So you made it *very clear you were talking to me.*  Especially since you were clarifying whether or not your post was directed at me.  Are you telling me now that after telling me it was directed at me, you then switched the generic "you"?  Give me a break.  It would take someone of very low intelligence to fall for your mind games.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Oh I see.  This is another one of those threads where you spout off a bunch of unfair criticisms to get someone riled up, and then start pulling the "I didn't say that" crap and trying to make it sound like you're just a neutral observer.  Just more of Tez being a bully.
> 
> You opened with "My point was directed at you".  So you made it *very clear you were talking to me.*  Especially since you were clarifying whether or not your post was directed at me.  Are you telling me now that after telling me it was directed at me, you then switched the generic "you"?  Give me a break.  It would take someone of very low intelligence to fall for your mind games.




I see you are going off on one again, I will leave you to your tantrum.

Yes I made it very clear I was making* a* point to you but you have also made it very clear that you don't read my comments and actually understand what I'm talking about instead choosing to take it as an insult when no insult was offered.
I pointed out the bits that were directed at you and pointed out the bits that were the generic you _( you didn't read the quote of my post did you?)_

Mind games? that is quite pathetic actually, you are somewhat paranoid if you think I would be bothered playing 'mind game's with you. You are constantly on the defence and very quick to take offence. It's very tiresome.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I see you are going off on one again, I will leave you to your tantrum.
> 
> Yes I made it very clear I was making* a* point to you but you have also made it very clear that you don't read my comments and actually understand what I'm talking about instead choosing to take it as an insult when no insult was offered.
> I pointed out the bits that were directed at you and pointed out the bits that were the generic you _( you didn't read the quote of my post did you?)_
> ...



Rile someone up, then when they call you on it, you play the victim.

The only thing that bugs me is that since you're experienced in martial arts, it means someone actually taught a bully how to fight.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Rile someone up, then when they call you on it, you play the victim.
> 
> The only thing that bugs me is that since you're experienced in martial arts, it means someone actually taught a bully how to fight.




Oh lord give me strength, I am not a victim of anything, I am not playing the victim and I was pointing out something that is obvious to most people ie someone who owns a martial arts business has different priorities and concerns from someone who runs martial arts classes not for profit. The thread after all is about belt testing fees, a business is looking to make a profit in all the ways it can from taking very small children to selling equipment. Grading fees can be a big part of a businesses income.



You aren't being bullied, you are merely miffed because you want to be.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Oh lord give me strength, I am not a victim of anything, I am not playing the victim and I was pointing out something that is obvious to most people ie someone who owns a martial arts business has different priorities and concerns from someone who runs martial arts classes not for profit. The thread after all is about belt testing fees, a business is looking to make a profit in all the ways it can from taking very small children to selling equipment. Grading fees can be a big part of a businesses income.
> 
> 
> 
> You aren't being bullied, you are merely miffed because you want to be.



Now you're talking about it from a generalization instead of about me directly.  After earlier when you said you were speaking directly about me.  You keep changing your narrative.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Now you're talking about it from a generalization instead of about me directly.  After earlier when you said you were speaking directly about me.  You keep changing your narrative.




Ok, I understand something about you now that I didn't before ( one of your posts) and it explains a lot so I'm going to regard this conversation with you as closed, I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm trying to explain to you, and you cannot follow when the subject expands and contracts as conversations do, they also wander as face to face conversations do in 'real life', I'm not changing my 'narrative' because I don't have one, posting on here is a conversation not an essay or thesis. You can disagree or agree with me, I honestly don't mind but really you need to stop thinking I'm insulting you and you need to stopactually aiming the little snipes at me because frankly I keep laughing and spilling my tea on my keyboard, it will only stand so much.


----------



## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I understand something about you now that I didn't before ( one of your posts) and it explains a lot so I'm going to regard this conversation with you as closed, I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm trying to explain to you, and you cannot follow when the subject expands and contracts as conversations do, they also wander as face to face conversations do in 'real life', I'm not changing my 'narrative' because I don't have one, posting on here is a conversation not an essay or thesis. You can disagree or agree with me, I honestly don't mind but really you need to stop thinking I'm insulting you and you need to stopactually aiming the little snipes at me because frankly I keep laughing and spilling my tea on my keyboard, it will only stand so much.



I don't aim little snipes at you.  You bully people and the cry foul when they call you on it.  I'm just calling you on it.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 2, 2020)

I have earlier written (in this, or some other thread - it's hard to keep track of the subject, lately) that, in the early 70's, there was likely a plan by TKD (very organized/centralized in S. Korea) to capture market share in the U.S. karate school boom.  They were ahead of the curve in marketing strategy and business planning.  Their schools grew like bamboo.  Part of this plan including testing fees. 

At that time, very few Okinawan/Japanese dojos, even Kenpo schools, charged them.  Over the years, though, the practice grew beyond just charging for the new colored belt.  This may have coincided with the slowing down of the MA industry boom, requiring new revenue sources, following the lead of the Koreans.

*Strangely, as test fees grew, so did the number of belts* (*and tests*.)  Between white and black, there used to be 4-6 belts.  Now, double that number is not uncommon, especially in TKD.  True, many dojangs (at least in my experience) base their business model on kids, and kids need more motivational inducement via numerous promotions than adults.  But the connection between testing fees and the number of tests exists.

Now, I am NOT criticizing TKD or the concepts of test fees, merely providing some historical context to the subject.  It is a tough business nowadays and teaching for many is not just a way of giving back to the art, but their bread and butter.  I understand. 

While I do not care for the concept of high test fees with a never-ending string of colored, striped & polka-dotted belts (OK, I've yet to see one with polka dots), I accept that it may be, what I consider, a necessary evil.  I just hope that it is not overdone to squeeze the little ones' families to an extreme.  And, while collecting this "extra" revenue, I hope the owners reciprocate with giving "extra" care and responsibility in teaching.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> I don't aim little snipes at you.  You bully people and the cry foul when they call you on it.  I'm just calling you on it.


Dude, that is almost everyone on here.
No one is bullying. Just voicing their opinion. I really have zero idea how someone could bully you from thousands of miles away.


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## JR 137 (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> and that is exactly my point, taking children as young as 3 and 4 is for business reasons because that's where the money is considered to be.
> 
> 
> 
> again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business.


From what I’ve seen, the 3-4 year olds aren’t really where the money is. Of course they bring in additional revenue, but they’re definitely not the money group. Everywhere I’ve seen charges significantly less (at least half price), the classes are shorter and less often. I’ve seen less kids that age in dojos that have them than adults in the same dojo. 

The “big money” group is elementary school aged children. Far more of them than adults and the youngest ones combined. While they typically pay less than adults, there’s far more than enough of them to still financially outperform the littlest ones and adults combined.

My dojo starts at 6 years old. We’ve had inquiries about younger kids, but we don’t take them. My CI has accepted a few 5 year olds, but they were either siblings or children of current students. And they were on a trial basis, meaning my CI said they can try a class or two and if they can do as well as the other kids in class, they can stay. Most were fine, some weren’t ready. 

And even if someone is teaching very young ones just for the money, that I’m and of itself doesn’t diminish what the kids are learning. So long as they’re being taught adequately/correctly/whatever you may call it.

Truth is many MA teachers don’t like teaching kids under, say, 16 or so. They do it to pay the bills and keep the dojo running. Some people really enjoy it, and some people truly enjoy teaching the very little ones. When I was teaching physical education, I really didn’t want to teach the Pre-K 3 and pre-k 4 year old classes. At 2 different schools, I taught  3 year olds all the way through high school seniors. After a few months, I really started to enjoy teaching the youngest ones. I genuinely had no preference beyond some groups were more fun than others, regardless of age. I had some great groups and some groups I I counted down the 40 minutes every time in every grade level. My point is sometimes people get “stuck” having to accept a group, then turn around and really enjoy it. And if you really like teaching, the ones you don’t want to do end up growing on you. 

The group that easily gave me the most anxiety before I started was adapted physical education (special needs). Honestly, my favorite group I ever had was my adapted elementary group while I was student teaching. Several had autism, several were cognitively delayed, and a few had severe physical disabilities. I had so much fun teaching and playing with them. Their smiles and laughter lit up the room like no other group I’ve been around. Sometimes, the group you fear turns out to be a real highlight of your day.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> I don't aim little snipes at you.  You bully people and the cry foul when they call you on it.  I'm just calling you on it.



Ok, I'll play, how exactly do I 'bully' people? especially you. Do explain.
I am not calling foul, complaining or reporting to the mods you called me a bully. In fact I am sat waiting all agog to see what you will come up with next...okay I'm fibbing, I don't actually care. I like, many on here have opinions and views on things, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you are being bullied. so you may care to withdraw your accusations and little snipes, you have a choice, you can put me on ignore, you can post a robust reply but whatever, do stop kvetching.

I get you don't like my opinion, I don't like toddlers being taught martial arts, to my mind it's something that much older children should do, not babies who cannot understand the concepts nor keep still long enough to actually teach techniques to. I understand that teaching children is something martial arts businesses do to make their money, doesn't mean I have to approve of it, doesn't mean anything actually other than my opinion. You can agree or disagree.

Businesses have different driving forces than non businesses, that surely you should agree with but I doubt you will. If you are relying on martial arts for your living then you run your organisation differently than if you are running it just to cover the basic utilities etc ( that's a generic your btw)


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I have earlier written (in this, or some other thread - it's hard to keep track of the subject, lately) that, in the early 70's, there was likely a plan by TKD (very organized/centralized in S. Korea) to capture market share in the U.S. karate school boom.  They were ahead of the curve in marketing strategy and business planning.  Their schools grew like bamboo.  Part of this plan including testing fees.
> 
> At that time, very few Okinawan/Japanese dojos, even Kenpo schools, charged them.  Over the years, though, the practice grew beyond just charging for the new colored belt.  This may have coincided with the slowing down of the MA industry boom, requiring new revenue sources, following the lead of the Koreans.
> 
> ...



Very well said.
One often over-looked caveat is the economy. There is more disposable income (in the U.S.)than there has ever been in history. It has an effect of 'Jumbo sizing' everything. Some people/schools take advantage of the such highs in the economy and 'get theirs' while they can. While not always easy, It is a measurable phenomenon and something a dollar minded person/parent would be wise to research before signing up for anything.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> And even if someone is teaching very young ones just for the money, that I’m and of itself doesn’t diminish what the kids are learning.




I did put that proviso into the post, my point was that those that teach for a living approach running an organisation/club/classes differently from those running them as a non profit, which is a simple truth. Which you do is up to you.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I did put that proviso into the post, my point was that those that teach for a living approach running an organisation/club/classes differently from those running them as a non profit, which is a simple truth. Which you do is up to you.


To be fair, I think that does not shine the correct light on what JR's post said. What I heard loudest in JR's post was the unexpected enjoyment found in teaching groups of various ages. And that 'age' does not specifically mean 'difficult'. 

There is no denying that the two models (profit/nonprofit) are going to be different. That doesn't mean their can't be fun in the necessary things that keep many businesses afloat. 
Just curious; would you agree or disagree that there is more free enterprise in the U.S.?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

Can we please try to keep this thread on topic, and focus on the subject rather than each other?


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Dude, that is almost everyone on here.
> No one is bullying. Just voicing their opinion. I really have zero idea how someone could bully you from thousands of miles away.



So you've never heard of cyber-bullying?  Cyber-bullying makes young people more than twice as likely to commit self-harm than if they hadn't been bullied.  There are many forms of abuse other than physical abuse.  Verbal abuse and emotional abuse are all just as bad.  They can cause stress, anxiety, and cause problems for people's mental health.  Less relevant to this discussion, but neglect and isolation are also forms of abuse.  Bullies don't just come in the variety that beat people up.  Bullying can be a wide range of things.

I also only call someone a bully when I repeatedly see the same behavior pattern.  In this case, I see a clear behavior pattern that I'll describe more below, in direct answer to her question.  I've had several people tell me in PMs or in other ways that they have her on ignore because of this type of thing, so I know it's not just me.  It's just that I choose to call her out instead of relying on the ignore button.



Tez3 said:


> Ok, I'll play, how exactly do I 'bully' people? especially you. Do explain.
> I am not calling foul, complaining or reporting to the mods you called me a bully. In fact I am sat waiting all agog to see what you will come up with next...okay I'm fibbing, I don't actually care. I like, many on here have opinions and views on things, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you are being bullied. so you may care to withdraw your accusations and little snipes, you have a choice, you can put me on ignore, you can post a robust reply but whatever, do stop kvetching.
> 
> I get you don't like my opinion, I don't like toddlers being taught martial arts, to my mind it's something that much older children should do, not babies who cannot understand the concepts nor keep still long enough to actually teach techniques to. I understand that teaching children is something martial arts businesses do to make their money, doesn't mean I have to approve of it, doesn't mean anything actually other than my opinion. You can agree or disagree.
> ...



I have explained it.  Several times.  You instigate an argument, and when the person calls you on it, you act like you're this perfect little angel, and start to question their emotional stability or intelligence.  Often both.  You then try to look like you're taking the high road.  You get people flustered or frustrated, and then you mock them for it.  

My calling you out has nothing to do with disagreements.  I disagree with a lot of things I see on this site, and still have amicable discussions with those folks.  For example, even with you, I didn't take offense when you said that 4 is too young for formal education.  I disagreed with it, and I stated my experience to the contrary.  That line of conversation continued.  You started to get a little bit accusatory with these statements:

"Basically you take 'elite' children, those with parents who are willing to pay for schooling and martial arts etc."

This is an accusation that I am gatekeeping the martial arts, and only keeping it to those I deem "worthy" by their social status.  A fact which simply isn't true.  However, you're clearly starting to poke and prod when you say this.  That the only way I can have young kids is if we endorse their privilege.  You also ignored what I said about kids being home-schooled before going to elementary school (or whatever the UK equivalent is), because that didn't fit your narrative of me focusing only on the privileged.

So I called you out on that and explained basic economics, that you pay money to a business in order to receive a service from that business.

That's when you came up with this:  "again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business."

This is a statement that you say was directed at me, but also that I shouldn't take personally.  And in the context of everything else you've said, is clearly directed at me and my school.  We only take in elite children who can pay, because it's for the good of the business and not because it's for their own good.  You have insulted my integrity, and you have insulted the hard work I put in towards teaching those kids martial arts.  So I corrected you on that assumption.

Then all you do is tell me (and I'm summarizing here) that I don't know how to read, that you never said that directed at me, and then a whole lot of passive-aggressiveness towards me.  You belittle me and tell me that I don't matter at all, that this is all just amusing to you.  

All of these are classic behaviors of a bully.  Or at the very least an internet troll.  Summarizing again:

You make accusations against someone's character, and then tell them you weren't actually talking about them
You tell people they don't matter
You insult people's intelligence
You insult people's integrity, and when they try and refute your accusation you tell them not to take it personal
I've been a victim of bullying.  I've taken classes on psychological effects of domestic violence and bullying, as part of my degree in psychology.  The way you talk to people is clearly abusive behavior.  



JR 137 said:


> From what I’ve seen, the 3-4 year olds aren’t really where the money is. Of course they bring in additional revenue, but they’re definitely not the money group. Everywhere I’ve seen charges significantly less (at least half price), the classes are shorter and less often. I’ve seen less kids that age in dojos that have them than adults in the same dojo.
> 
> The “big money” group is elementary school aged children. Far more of them than adults and the youngest ones combined. While they typically pay less than adults, there’s far more than enough of them to still financially outperform the littlest ones and adults combined.
> 
> ...



That is true, a lot of schools do have a "little tigers" class (or similar).  In our school, we do have separate classes for 4-7 and 8-12 (for the white & yellow belts, anyway), but the classes are the same length and the same price.  And in my experience, this is where a significant portion of our students come from.  However, my Master clearly has a passion for working with kids this age.  

Personally, I find it to be a difficult class, and the only one that feels like "work".  I don't teach that class for the money, I teach it because my Master needs the most help in that class.  And there are a lot of students there that I eventually connect with.  But man, there are some students that make it a lot of work.


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## JR 137 (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I did put that proviso into the post, my point was that those that teach for a living approach running an organisation/club/classes differently from those running them as a non profit, which is a simple truth. Which you do is up to you.


I don’t disagree with that. I was going to quote another post by you, but I’ll just comment here...

There are lots of great reasons to teach 3 and 4 year olds MA. And none of them really have to do with fighting/SD/whatever. It’s all about physical education. Get the kids have fun in a structured and physical way. The aim of teaching them shouldn’t be to get them to become MA phenoms any more than signing the same age kids up for things like soccer, gymnastics, dance, et al should be about the kids excelling in those things. 

Kids training in MA should be about getting them to have fun, get exercise, give them a structured routine, learn the “hidden curriculum” like waiting their turn, lining up, etc; and learning the very basics. Sure, some parents are delusional about what they expect out of MA lessons; no different than their delusions about any other physical activity or stuff like piano, art, etc. 

I’ve seen a ton of little kids’ activities. MA is a great one as are many others. I honestly think the best thing for them is gymnastics. Watching my daughters and siblings’ kids at gymnastics at a really young age, I was completely dumbfounded by how great it was for them. How they kept 3 year olds’ attention and physical activity on track for an hour straight was nothing short of a miracle. And they learn so much body control and awareness. 

Also, to you and @dvcochran  - there is obviously a demand for MA lessons for 3 and 4 year olds. Why not give the parents what they’re willing to pay for and give the kids what they want? If you do it right, everyone benefits (in a good way). My CI regularly gets calls inquiring about lessons for 3-5 year olds. He doesn’t do it, but I don’t think there’d be anything wrong if he did. He doesn’t do it simply because he doesn’t think he’d be an effective teacher for that group. He’s contemplated asking if anyone would like to teach that age and basically own that age group, but no one’s been interested and/or willing to make the commitment. That group takes a very special type of personality to run it.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> So you've never heard of cyber-bullying?


Sure I have heard of it. It is really one of those head scratchers for me. My previous statements still stands.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Sure I have heard of it. It is really one of those head scratchers for me. My previous statements still stands.



Maybe because you didn't grow up in the digital age.  Same can be said for @Tez3 , if I remember correct what she's said about her age in the past.  I grew up with the internet, grew up seeing the effects people can have on each other through it.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> All of these are classic behaviors of a bully. Or at the very least an internet troll. Summarizing again:
> 
> You make accusations against someone's character, and then tell them you weren't actually talking about them
> You tell people they don't matter
> ...




You are making assumptions based on what you think I'm saying. For example I didn't say you couldn't read, I said you didn't understand what I was saying, I even said I was sorry for that.



skribs said:


> That's when you came up with this: "again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business."



That's not bullying it's an opinion, 'not necessarily' means exactly what it says, the owner of the business won't turn down customers will he? Can he afford to turn down paying students? Can he pick and chose those he trains?  
Are you sure all the children benefit, well no, because you made a post about a child who would only play games not train. You've also posted before about the problems teaching this children leaving genuine doubt as whether you think actually think it's 'all good'. You however turned it into something aimed at you.

I don't 'instigate' arguments, as I said I have opinions, people can agree or disagree, you don't like being disagreed with.
disagreement is good, it makes people think about what their views are, if they defend their opinions they have to form up the reasons for that opinion. I am open to changing my mind, as all people should be. Rather than put your side of the business side of your martial arts you complain of being bullied, you could have explained how you choose your child students, how you teach them etc, I may not be convinced but that's not your problem is it?



skribs said:


> You insult people's intelligence
> 
> You insult people's integrity, and when they try and refute your accusation you tell them not to take it personal



What you mean is *you* feel insulted by just about any post I make, you've jumped on me before, unwanted by the other person you assumed needed 'defending', I might also add who told you he and I were messing around but you went off a right rant similar to this one. You were absolutely insulting and quite nasty. 

The way you keep on at me with your accusations one might even think you were the one bullying here..........

I attempted to get back on to the OP subject but again you took that as being a personal attack, there is nothing I can write or say that will satisfy you so I'm not going to try anymore.


I don't tell people they don't matter, I tell some they don't matter to me and why should they? I'm equally positive I don't matter to them.

In deference to a post you made about yourself I'm not answering you as robustly as I could because I think you have made my posts into a fixation now and this needs to end now. For my part I am putting you on ignore, something I do reluctantly but I feel it's one solution.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Maybe because you didn't grow up in the digital age.  Same can be said for @Tez3 , if I remember correct what she's said about her age in the past.  I grew up with the internet, grew up seeing the effects people can have on each other through it.


Really? Are you bullying me? 
Yes, we are both older than you, and it is really showing in your post. 
See, you Think you are being bullied when you are not because apparently you have no clue how to handle even modest adversity.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Really? Are you bullying me?
> Yes, we are both older than you, and it is really showing in your post.
> See, you Think you are being bullied when you are not because apparently you have no clue how to handle even modest adversity.



No, I am pointing out that because you didn't grow up with the internet, you might not have seen the effects it has on people.  There weren't kids your age killing themselves because of things that were said to them in chat rooms when you were in high school.


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## WaterGal (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> "Why doesn't she have to wear hers?"
> 
> Same question.



Oh, I misread your previous comment. I thought you said the _parents _were asking why the girls didn't get a cup with their set. I see now that you said the kids asked, and you respond with "ask your parents". Yeah, that's basically what we do too lol.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Oh, I misread your previous comment. I thought you said the _parents _were asking why the girls didn't get a cup with their set. I see now that you said the kids asked, and you respond with "ask your parents". Yeah, that's basically what we do too lol.



Yeah, there are some times I don't quite know what to say.  

For example, one of the pieces of etiquette at our dojang is that you don't fix your uniform in the middle of anything.  If you're doing a form, going through your punches or kicks, etc., and your belt comes undone you leave it on the ground, or if your shirt comes untucked you leave it untucked.  After we finish going through our kicks, or after the form is over, you get the chance to fix your uniform.  I even had one test where I got a drop of sweat in my eye, and I didn't clear it out until after the form was done.

Normally I don't mind little nervous ticks, but some kids will fix their uniform after every punch or kick.  So one time I tell a student to keep his hands tight in the right position, and fix his uniform after the form is over (with everyone else).  So it kind of turned into a little quiz:
*Me: *What do you do if your shirt comes untucked?
*Him:* Fix it after the form.
*Me:* What do you do if your belt falls off?
*Him:*  Leave it on the ground, and put it back on after the form.
*Me: *Good job!
*Him:*  What if all of your clothes fall off?
*Me:* Uh....then you have bigger problems.

For reference, this kid was 5 or 6 at the time.


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## WaterGal (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Four year olds are toddlers really, much too young for formal classes in anything.



I think it depends on how, well, formal the class is. Our Little Dragons class is 4-6s, and we've found over time that taking more a of a structured play approach and teaching them basic skills as games, obstacle courses and so forth works better for that age than a more traditional martial arts class. Half of what they're learning at that age is just, like, how to take turns and listen to directions and have confidence and develop their basic motor skills. The martial arts stuff is mostly just a way to learn that.


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## JR 137 (Mar 2, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Half of what they're learning at that age is just, like, how to take turns and listen to directions and have confidence and develop their basic motor skills.


This was what we were told was the "hidden curriculum" in my grad PE classes.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> No, I am pointing out that because you didn't grow up with the internet, you might not have seen the effects it has on people.  There weren't kids your age killing themselves because of things that were said to them in chat rooms when you were in high school.


People killing themselves over what someone else said was going on long before the 'internet' was around. 
NikolaTesla predicted worldwide networks. ARPANET was created in the 60's. Kahn and Cerf developed TCP/IP in the 70's. So yea, I grew up with the internet. Don't make it out to be an incredibly new thing. 
You are apparently way too young to understand it beyond social media. There is WAY more to the internet.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> People killing themselves over what someone else said was going on long before the 'internet' was around.
> NikolaTesla predicted worldwide networks. ARPANET was created in the 60's. Kahn and Cerf developed TCP/IP in the 70's. So yea, I grew up with the internet. Don't make it out to be an incredibly new thing.
> You are apparently way too young to understand it beyond social media. There is WAY more to the internet.



You're deflecting.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> People killing themselves over what someone else said was going on long before the 'internet' was around.
> NikolaTesla predicted worldwide networks. ARPANET was created in the 60's. Kahn and Cerf developed TCP/IP in the 70's. So yea, I grew up with the internet. Don't make it out to be an incredibly new thing.
> You are apparently way too young to understand it beyond social media. There is WAY more to the internet.



The fact that suicide and the internet both existed before social media doesn't make cyber-bullying any less real.  The fact that bad things have happened in the past doesn't excuse poor behavior today.  You say you don't understand it, but that doesn't matter.  Because when you say or do something to someone, you don't get to dictate how they react or how they take it.  And you can't take it back.

You can hide behind these excuses if you want.  But cyber-bullying is a real thing.  And if you don't take responsibility for the things you say about a person - in person or online - then you're part of the problem.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> And none of them really have to do with fighting/SD/whatever. It’s all about physical education. Get the kids have fun in a structured and physical way



I do think though that if you are training martial arts it should be about fighting/self defence etc.

There's plenty of other activities that children can do that will give them a physical education, here we have clubs for most sports as ell as a number of youth organisations. Local authority run sports and leisure centres here that have activities for children, there's sports at and after school as well. I do think of martial arts as an adult and young adult activity more than one for toddlers. I do agree about gymnastics and would add Cheer as well.



WaterGal said:


> I think it depends on how, well, formal the class is. Our Little Dragons class is 4-6s, and we've found over time that taking more a of a structured play approach and teaching them basic skills as games, obstacle courses and so forth works better for that age than a more traditional martial arts class. Half of what they're learning at that age is just, like, how to take turns and listen to directions and have confidence and develop their basic motor skills. The martial arts stuff is mostly just a way to learn that.



Personally I'm not sure a martial arts class is the place for children to learn to listen, as well as learn social skills. Most of us are martial arts instructors not trained primary school teachers, it's beyond what we should be teaching. Martial arts classes should be martial arts not primary schools, I do understand that children in the US start school at a later age than they do elsewhere but surely it can't be down to martial arts instructors to teach what schools and parents should be?


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

I will add too, how many times have we seen, over the years, people posting up on here complaining about the 'childcare' martial arts classes? The ones that pick children up from school, they do their homework and some martial arts games, they 'sell' martial arts birthday parties, have special clubs for leadership, black belts, teams etc etc. The ones where martial arts is just the banner for out of school childcare, some people have said on here that it's fairly widespread, it's certainly an impression that you get from reading these posts anyway.


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> The fact that suicide and the internet both existed before social media doesn't make cyber-bullying any less real.  The fact that bad things have happened in the past doesn't excuse poor behavior today.  You say you don't understand it, but that doesn't matter.  Because when you say or do something to someone, you don't get to dictate how they react or how they take it.  And you can't take it back.
> 
> You can hide behind these excuses if you want.  But cyber-bullying is a real thing.  And if you don't take responsibility for the things you say about a person - in person or online - then you're part of the problem.



People are going to hear 'bad', annoying things online and in person all their life. It is imperative that, as a responsible person, you mature and learn to let certain things said to you just pass by. Accepting the fact that the narrative cannot always be manipulated so that you are right is a very good thing. You try to do this frequently. Much more can be learned by keeping our trap shut sometimes.
And remember, this is a worldwide forum (which I think is pretty cool). People from other cultures simply have different ways of communicating. This can easily add to a post reading very different from what it really says. 
In other words, you would greatly benefit from broadening your perspective. 

Quite often you bring up cyber-bullying like it is something you can hide behind. That is a very unhealthy way to look at it.


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I will add too, how many times have we seen, over the years, people posting up on here complaining about the 'childcare' martial arts classes? The ones that pick children up from school, they do their homework and some martial arts games, they 'sell' martial arts birthday parties, have special clubs for leadership, black belts, teams etc etc. The ones where martial arts is just the banner for out of school childcare, some people have said on here that it's fairly widespread, it's certainly an impression that you get from reading these posts anyway.



I think that just like there are many different styles/systems in MA, the are also different approaches and/or veins to the training method. Creating a 'habit' that a person needs to exercise as they learn is a very, very good thing. 
As martial arts have become more and more integrated into western culture, it has absorbed some western mentality and approach to training/teaching. A point can be made here that training and teaching are two different things.  

We do not offer the after school programs you mention. Another school in our town does and it is by far the bulk of their business. I have never audited a class but have mostly heard good things about the program. It is very hard for me to find a downside to this approach. Kids that need afterschool care because their parents are working or such are going to have to go somewhere. Going to a program that includes formal exercise can only be a plus. 

I guess a person has to think about the beginning of the journey. For some kids it will be the afterschool program. All the kids get a MA exposure so possibly it will be something that sparks their interest later in life. Not a bad thing. IMHO

From a business perspective, the other school has had to add considerable overhead to make it work. I think they are up to three vans. This of course means more warm bodies (wages), more insurance cost as well as the added liability coverage I am sure they had to add. At least one person there has to have a teaching certificate. There are other internal/external programs the everyone in a leadership role have to take. Everything a 'regular' daycare is required to do plus some. I am certain this program is the what keeps the other school solvent. 
This is not a business model I have ever had an interest in pursuing. But I do see a Lot of good in it.


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> You're deflecting.


Haha. If I am deflecting, you are redirecting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

*REMINDER TO FORUM MEMBERS:*

Try to keep posts to something remotely resembling the topic at hand, or at least something related to MA or the sub-forum topic. If you need to have an extended conversation with another member, consider taking it to PMs.

*Gerry Seymour
MartialTalk Moderator*
@gpseymour


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I do think though that if you are training martial arts it should be about fighting/self defence etc.


I don't think that's necessary. Martial arts can be used for a lot of purposes, and there are some groups that train with a fairly specifically non-combat focus (Koichi Tohei's entire organization comes to mind).


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Personally I'm not sure a martial arts class is the place for children to learn to listen, as well as learn social skills. Most of us are martial arts instructors not trained primary school teachers, it's beyond what we should be teaching. Martial arts classes should be martial arts not primary schools, I do understand that children in the US start school at a later age than they do elsewhere but surely it can't be down to martial arts instructors to teach what schools and parents should be?


Parents aren't trained in it, either. And many of them could use some help. Lots of places teach kids skills beyond what's being offered in the name of the institution, and often simply through the experience and internal training (as opposed to formal schooling) received by the staff. Why single martial arts out as something so different from gymnastics or other sports?


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## JR 137 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Parents aren't trained in it, either. And many of them could use some help. Lots of places teach kids skills beyond what's being offered in the name of the institution, and often simply through the experience and internal training (as opposed to formal schooling) received by the staff. Why single martial arts out as something so different from gymnastics or other sports?


Yup. As to the last sentence, MA isn’t something sacred. We tend to put it on a pedestal a bit due to our passion for it, but it isn’t something esoteric that should only be reserved for very specific purposes.


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## JR 137 (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I do think though that if you are training martial arts it should be about fighting/self defence etc.
> 
> There's plenty of other activities that children can do that will give them a physical education, here we have clubs for most sports as ell as a number of youth organisations. Local authority run sports and leisure centres here that have activities for children, there's sports at and after school as well. I do think of martial arts as an adult and young adult activity more than one for toddlers. I do agree about gymnastics and would add Cheer as well.
> 
> ...


It shouldn’t be the primary place kids learn these skills; it should supplement/reinforce what’s being taught at home in these areas. 

Furthermore there’s different dynamics at play in a large group setting simply that can’t be replicated at home. Most kids don’t have a dozen or so siblings the same age where they have to act specific ways in order to coexist with the group. 

MA has a lot more to teach than simply SD skills. There’s nothing wrong with young ones learning these things. They can absolutely learn these things from different activities/sports, and there are some that may be better at it, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t serve any purpose for young kids. 

I’m 99% sure you know this, but maybe you’re not on the same page here - kids this age are non-contact/non-sparring. It’s all basics. They may hit a soft target here and there, but they’re certainly not putting their “skills to use” against each other. If they were, you wouldn’t get any objections from any sane person.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Kids that need afterschool care because their parents are working or such are going to have to go somewhere.




I think this is where the culture differences come into play because a martial arts school would simply not be allowed here to run as after school care. All afterschool clubs and childcare are regulated here by OFSTED and have to abide by standards laid down by the Dept of Education as well as be inspected yearly.

Martial arts to us here is mostly a sport alongside football, athletics etc or even a hobby, having it as childcare is something we wouldn't really consider, most classes here are for an hour a week, perhaps an hour and a half, where martial arts techniques are taught.



JR 137 said:


> I’m 99% sure you know this, but maybe you’re not on the same page here - kids this age are non-contact/non-sparring. It’s all basics. They may hit a soft target here and there, but they’re certainly not putting their “skills to use” against each other. If they were, you wouldn’t get any objections from any sane person.




Well most children's classes are like that but there are posters who have said it's mostly games etc rather than actual martial arts taught at 3/4. My opinion has nothing to do with whether they put their skills to use or not, especially as they don't seem to learn any martial arts techniques, my objection is having classes of children as young as three. If it's for physical exercise etc then that's what it should be presented as, perhaps a 'toddlers gym/ready for martial arts' class or suchlike rather than a martial arts class if they aren't actually doing martial arts. 

This is representative of the UK on the whole, the Budokwai is a very old club, they have a class for 3 year olds but  it is not a Judo class, it's called 'Pre Judo class' they don't teach martial arts. They have a 'Judo Gym' class from 6 months+  but for parents/carers and their babies again not martial arts. this is the type of class that is useful and suitable for toddlers, along with their parents/carers rather than unaccompanied in a martial arts class.http://budokwai.co.uk/judogym 
but I'm thinking as has been said this is a cultural difference as much as anything.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think that's necessary. Martial arts can be used for a lot of purposes, and there are some groups that train with a fairly specifically non-combat focus (Koichi Tohei's entire organization comes to mind).




That's going to be another discussion lol 'what is martial arts' and probably not appreciated on this thread.  Interesting though, what constitutes a martial art when (if) martial means warlike etc. I don't have time to start another thread though, and I daresay there's one already.


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## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> People are going to hear 'bad', annoying things online and in person all their life. It is imperative that, as a responsible person, you mature and learn to let certain things said to you just pass by. Accepting the fact that the narrative cannot always be manipulated so that you are right is a very good thing. You try to do this frequently. Much more can be learned by keeping our trap shut sometimes.
> And remember, this is a worldwide forum (which I think is pretty cool). People from other cultures simply have different ways of communicating. This can easily add to a post reading very different from what it really says.
> In other words, you would greatly benefit from broadening your perspective.
> 
> Quite often you bring up cyber-bullying like it is something you can hide behind. That is a very unhealthy way to look at it.



You think that bullying is okay, because other people just have to learn to take it?  That's it.  I have lost all respect for you.  I will be putting you on ignore, because I don't want to be influenced by anything you have to say.

I won't respond to this line of the conversation anymore, which is probably what the mods want anyway.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

Hopefully this will bring this subject to an end. None of the following has happened on here,
*Bullying and cyberbullying*


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I think this is where the culture differences come into play because a martial arts school would simply not be allowed here to run as after school care. All afterschool clubs and childcare are regulated here by OFSTED and have to abide by standards laid down by the Dept of Education as well as be inspected yearly.
> 
> Martial arts to us here is mostly a sport alongside football, athletics etc or even a hobby, having it as childcare is something we wouldn't really consider, most classes here are for an hour a week, perhaps an hour and a half, where martial arts techniques are taught.


In the US, many activities have a bit of this after-school care thing going on. It exists in gymnastics and such, too. Though I will say the most obvious ones I've seen have been MA schools.



> Well most children's classes are like that but there are posters who have said it's mostly games etc rather than actual martial arts taught at 3/4. My opinion has nothing to do with whether they put their skills to use or not, especially as they don't seem to learn any martial arts techniques, my objection is having classes of children as young as three. If it's for physical exercise etc then that's what it should be presented as, perhaps a 'toddlers gym/ready for martial arts' class or suchlike rather than a martial arts class if they aren't actually doing martial arts.
> 
> This is representative of the UK on the whole, the Budokwai is a very old club, they have a class for 3 year olds but  it is not a Judo class, it's called 'Pre Judo class' they don't teach martial arts. They have a 'Judo Gym' class from 6 months+  but for parents/carers and their babies again not martial arts. this is the type of class that is useful and suitable for toddlers, along with their parents/carers rather than unaccompanied in a martial arts class.http://budokwai.co.uk/judogym
> but I'm thinking as has been said this is a cultural difference as much as anything.


In the US, they're usually just called "kids' classes" or "little dragons" or something like that. When parents come in to ask about classes, they're given a run-down of what the classes are like, but the term "martial arts" is rarely used to describe classes at any level, except as a blanket term for all MA-related stuff.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That's going to be another discussion lol 'what is martial arts' and probably not appreciated on this thread.  Interesting though, what constitutes a martial art when (if) martial means warlike etc. I don't have time to start another thread though, and I daresay there's one already.


Yeah, a bunch of us have been through that discussion, and it varies person-to-person.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> When parents come in to ask about classes, they're given a run-down of what the classes are like,




I assume though the parents aren't involved in the actual class as with the Budokwai? Those sessions aren't classes and they are for the parent/guardian/carer to do with the children. 
My granddaughter who is now one, does a lot of different sessions with her parents, sensory, swimming, music etc. she's just started walking so will also being doing gymnastics and most likely Cheer but these sessions are also done with 'their' adult until school age (4 and a half to five here).


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I think this is where the culture differences come into play because a martial arts school would simply not be allowed here to run as after school care. All afterschool clubs and childcare are regulated here by OFSTED and have to abide by standards laid down by the Dept of Education as well as be inspected yearly.
> 
> Martial arts to us here is mostly a sport alongside football, athletics etc or even a hobby, having it as childcare is something we wouldn't really consider, most classes here are for an hour a week, perhaps an hour and a half, where martial arts techniques are taught.
> 
> ...



It sounds like semantics at play. What you describe is very, very similar to the majority of programs here. I am sure it is true that the term Martial Arts is sometimes used purely as a marketing tool. But the same can be said about the Budokwai using the term 'Judo' in the program name. No more misleading. IMHO


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It sounds like semantics at play. What you describe is very, very similar to the majority of programs here. I am sure it is true that the term Martial Arts is sometimes used purely as a marketing tool. But the same can be said about the Budokwai using the term 'Judo' in the program name. No more misleading. IMHO




The Budokwai is Judo though, it's not just a school or even a club, it's the Budokwai, has been for over 100 years. (there would have been no International Judo Federation without the Budokwan ) As I've already said above though, it doesn't have classes it runs sessions for the children and their parent/carer/guardian to participate in as well in the dojo. It's not classes for young children on their own. Is that how the majority of classes are run, because if they are for childcare they can't be a parent and child one can they? the parent/adult and child sessions are more the norm here  than child alone classes.


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## WaterGal (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Personally I'm not sure a martial arts class is the place for children to learn to listen, as well as learn social skills. Most of us are martial arts instructors not trained primary school teachers, it's beyond what we should be teaching. Martial arts classes should be martial arts not primary schools, I do understand that children in the US start school at a later age than they do elsewhere but surely it can't be down to martial arts instructors to teach what schools and parents should be?



Maybe this is a cultural difference. In the US, schools these days mostly focus on teaching academics. Things like art, music, physical education, character development, social skills, etc are more and more being sidelined in favor of more time for reading and math (and preparing for tests on reading and math, because school funding is often tied to good test scores).

So that leaves parents, extracurricular activities, and daycare centers to instruct kids in those vital non-academic subjects.


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## WaterGal (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Well most children's classes are like that but there are posters who have said it's mostly games etc rather than actual martial arts taught at 3/4. My opinion has nothing to do with whether they put their skills to use or not, especially as they don't seem to learn any martial arts techniques, my objection is having classes of children as young as three. If it's for physical exercise etc then that's what it should be presented as, perhaps a 'toddlers gym/ready for martial arts' class or suchlike rather than a martial arts class if they aren't actually doing martial arts.



I assume you're talking about my post. The games we do are designed to teach specific martial arts skills, but we dp very much present the class as only teaching very basic beginner-level martial arts skills, alongside basic motor skills and character development. Parents know this going in. They don't expect their kid to be doing full-contact sparring and breaking bricks at age 4 lol.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Maybe this is a cultural difference. In the US, schools these days mostly focus on teaching academics. Things like art, music, physical education, character development, social skills, etc are more and more being sidelined in favor of more time for reading and math (and preparing for tests on reading and math, because school funding is often tied to good test scores).
> 
> So that leaves parents, extracurricular activities, and daycare centers to instruct kids in those vital non-academic subjects.




we have a lot of organisations here that children join, there's Girl Guides, Scouts, St John's Ambulance Brigade, Girls Brigade and Boys Brigade, Girl's Venture Corps, Pony club, Woodcraft Folk, Police Cadets, Air Cadets, Royal Marines Cadets, Navy Cadets, Army Cadets, etc etc. We also have youth clubs, Outward Bound and  more which are for all non academic subjects. We have the sports clubs and academies as well of course.

If you are any kind of daycare centre here though, as I said you have to be registered and inspected, with a specific curriculum to follow.
I think that as we have so many sports and youth organisations it leaves the sports organisations free to follow just what they do, without having to do anything else. There's lots for pre schoolers to do, I can't keep up with the things my granddaughter does and she's only one, so parents perhaps don't look for things in martial arts classes they would expect to find elsewhere.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> I assume you're talking about my post. The games we do are designed to teach specific martial arts skills, but we dp very much present the class as only teaching very basic beginner-level martial arts skills, alongside basic motor skills and character development. Parents know this going in. They don't expect their kid to be doing full-contact sparring and breaking bricks at age 4 lol.




Sorry, no it wasn't yours. It was the post I quoted above my comment, the one from JR.


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> The Budokwai is Judo though, it's not just a school or even a club, it's the Budokwai, has been for over 100 years. (there would have been no International Judo Federation without the Budokwan ) As I've already said above though, it doesn't have classes it runs sessions for the children and their parent/carer/guardian to participate in as well in the dojo. It's not classes for young children on their own. Is that how the majority of classes are run, because if they are for childcare they can't be a parent and child one can they? the parent/adult and child sessions are more the norm here  than child alone classes.


No, you are correct that parent and child are not in childcare at the same time. I do feel classes/sessions is semantics in the context however.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> No, you are correct that parent and child are not in childcare at the same time. I do feel classes/sessions is semantics in the context however.




Not really semantics, class = A class is a course of teaching in a particular subject. (Class definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary)

session = a period of time or meeting arranged for a particular activity: 
SESSION | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary.


One thing to bear in mind is that what I said refers to normal British people, the aristocrats here however have nannies then send their children to boarding school when they are seven thus saving all that bother of bringing them up. I kid you not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I assume though the parents aren't involved in the actual class as with the Budokwai? Those sessions aren't classes and they are for the parent/guardian/carer to do with the children.
> My granddaughter who is now one, does a lot of different sessions with her parents, sensory, swimming, music etc. she's just started walking so will also being doing gymnastics and most likely Cheer but these sessions are also done with 'their' adult until school age (4 and a half to five here).


I'm not aware of any that bring in the parent/adult as part of the class on a regular basis. I have seen a couple of schools where the parent had to be in attendance at all classes, though even that appears to be an exception.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Not really semantics, class = A class is a course of teaching in a particular subject. (Class definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary)
> 
> session = a period of time or meeting arranged for a particular activity:
> SESSION | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary.
> ...


In the US, many activities for kids are described as "classes", though at early age groups they are more activity sessions.


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## WaterGal (Mar 4, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> we have a lot of organisations here that children join, there's Girl Guides, Scouts, St John's Ambulance Brigade, Girls Brigade and Boys Brigade, Girl's Venture Corps, Pony club, Woodcraft Folk, Police Cadets, Air Cadets, Royal Marines Cadets, Navy Cadets, Army Cadets, etc etc. We also have youth clubs, Outward Bound and  more which are for all non academic subjects. We have the sports clubs and academies as well of course.
> 
> If you are any kind of daycare centre here though, as I said you have to be registered and inspected, with a specific curriculum to follow.
> I think that as we have so many sports and youth organisations it leaves the sports organisations free to follow just what they do, without having to do anything else. There's lots for pre schoolers to do, I can't keep up with the things my granddaughter does and she's only one, so parents perhaps don't look for things in martial arts classes they would expect to find elsewhere.



Where our martial arts school is, there just aren't that many organized activities for preschool age kids. There are a couple of martial arts schools that offer a preschool program, as does the dance studio, and I the soccer league does too. Scouting doesn't start until grade school, and military cadet-type programs are only for teenagers. I just checked the town rec center website, and they don't have a single activity listed for this spring for kids under 5. I think the town yoga studio maybe has a mommy & me toddler class. But yeah, there just isn't much. (Edit: I just thought to check the town library. They do have a weekly preschool storytime, at 10am on a weekday.)


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## dvcochran (Mar 4, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Where our martial arts school is, there just aren't that many organized activities for preschool age kids. There are a couple of martial arts schools that offer a preschool program, as does the dance studio, and I the soccer league does too. Scouting doesn't start until grade school, and military cadet-type programs are only for teenagers. I just checked the town rec center website, and they don't have a single activity listed for this spring for kids under 5. I think the town yoga studio maybe has a mommy & me toddler class. But yeah, there just isn't much. (Edit: I just thought to check the town library. They do have a weekly preschool storytime, at 10am on a weekday.)


What do you think is causing a change in the trend? I am seeing a similar occurrence in our town as well. 
I do think the group exercise model is changing.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Where our martial arts school is, there just aren't that many organized activities for preschool age kids. There are a couple of martial arts schools that offer a preschool program, as does the dance studio, and I the soccer league does too. Scouting doesn't start until grade school, and military cadet-type programs are only for teenagers. I just checked the town rec center website, and they don't have a single activity listed for this spring for kids under 5. I think the town yoga studio maybe has a mommy & me toddler class. But yeah, there just isn't much. (Edit: I just thought to check the town library. They do have a weekly preschool storytime, at 10am on a weekday.)




That seems a real shame, my granddaughter from a couple of months old was going to messy play, song groups, swimming, baby yoga, sensory play, 'boogie' babies. Once they can walk there's even more things, drama, dance, gymnastics, toddler keep fit etc and from two there's language classes ( my granddaughter will be learning French at school when she's two, she's in the nursery class at her Prep school now, she's one).
The problem may be here now though that there's so much for children they are rushed around doing so much, they have activities every night, I know our martial arts kids and our Brownies and Rainbows do, fitting in siblings activities too means children arriving late/early or leaving late/early etc. I do wonder if the children aren't doing too much but there is a big thing here about having children 'do' things'.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That seems a real shame, my granddaughter from a couple of months old was going to messy play, song groups, swimming, baby yoga, sensory play, 'boogie' babies. Once they can walk there's even more things, drama, dance, gymnastics, toddler keep fit etc and from two there's language classes ( my granddaughter will be learning French at school when she's two, she's in the nursery class at her Prep school now, she's one).
> The problem may be here now though that there's so much for children they are rushed around doing so much, they have activities every night, I know our martial arts kids and our Brownies and Rainbows do, fitting in siblings activities too means children arriving late/early or leaving late/early etc. I do wonder if the children aren't doing too much but there is a big thing here about having children 'do' things'.


Tez, are the programs you listed free to the user in your area? Either way how are they paid for? If the programs are 'prepaid' through social government intervention, this adds to my question to Watergal earlier. What do you think is causing attrition in these kinds of programs? 
Tennessee is going into it's fourth year with unemployment under 3%. Disposable income is readily available. However I am seeing reduction in many of the same programs. I have been trying to dissect this trend for some time. 
I think I will start a new thread regarding this and see if other people will jump on with their thoughts and opinion.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Tez, are the programs you listed free to the user in your area? Either way how are they paid for? If the programs are 'prepaid' through social government intervention, this adds to my question to Watergal earlier. What do you think is causing attrition in these kinds of programs?
> Tennessee is going into it's fourth year with unemployment under 3%. Disposable income is readily available. However I am seeing reduction in many of the same programs. I have been trying to dissect this trend for some time.
> I think I will start a new thread regarding this and see if other people will jump on with their thoughts and opinion.




Some are free others you pay a small fee about a pound or two a session. Just about all of the activities are held in sports/leisure centres ( council run usually) village halls, church halls etc as are most martial arts classes here. Libraries here offer free activities for under fives as well as older children. We also have the usual mothers and toddlers groups and playgroups, nurseries though are usually private run and regulated by the government, they have to follow the national curriculum. In England all children aged 3-4 and some 2 year olds are entitled to 15 hours ( a week) free childcare, this has to be at a nursery or registered childcare facility. Scotland is slightly different with more free hours, not sure what Wales and Northern Ireland do.
Most of the groups that offer baby and toddler activities are run by self employed people usually mums themselves, it's actually an ideal situation. Teachers, nursery,  dance, gymnastic etc teachers with small children are the usual people who do this, it fits perfectly with their work needs and usually their qualifications.

The Duchess of Cambridge launched a national questionnaire to better understand the needs of early childhood, those results are expected soon. Early Years - Royal Foundation


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## geezer (Mar 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Tez, are the programs you listed free to the user in your area? Either way how are they paid for? If the programs are 'prepaid' through social government intervention, this adds to my question to Watergal earlier. What do you think is causing attrition in these kinds of programs?
> Tennessee is going into it's fourth year with unemployment under 3%. Disposable income is readily available. However I am seeing reduction in many of the same programs. I have been trying to dissect this trend for some time.
> I think I will start a new thread regarding this and see if other people will jump on with their thoughts and opinion.



That should be an interesting thread. I live in another "Sunbelt" state that prides itself of keeping taxes low to stimulate the economy. Unemployment_ is_ lower now, but I don't think relative income or discretionary spending is universally up. Statistics and damned statistics, ya know. 

As a high school art teacher, I've seen nothing but cutbacks and larger classes. With 25 years in to date, I've seen our school's department go from four full-time teachers in the visual arts to just one. I kept my job by teaching more "preps" (different subjects and/or levels) and by taking assignments at other schools. That's OK, because next year I will be back at my home school as the sole art teacher ...covering_ everything!_

Now I hear that our district has plans to further save money by going to a different schedule which will increase our class load by 20%, but not to worry, they are considering offering a 2% raise (which sounds like an 18% net loss in compensation to me). For those of old enough to get medicare, retirement is an option. Not for the rest, since the district changed the contract and we no longer can keep our medical insurance after retirement.

All told, things have _not_ gotten better! My economic situation is way worse than that of colleagues who retired around 2008 at the beginning of the "Great Recession". I guess this could be a regional thing, but if middle-class people in other professions across the country are feeling the same squeeze, that could be affecting enrollment in Martial Arts classes as well. I'd like to hear your perspective when you start that thread!


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## JR 137 (Mar 7, 2020)

geezer said:


> That should be an interesting thread. I live in another "Sunbelt" state that prides itself of keeping taxes low to stimulate the economy. Unemployment_ is_ lower now, but I don't think relative income or discretionary spending is universally up. Statistics and damned statistics, ya know.
> 
> As a high school art teacher, I've seen nothing but cutbacks and larger classes. With 25 years in to date, I've seen our school's department go from four full-time teachers in the visual arts to just one. I kept my job by teaching more "preps" (different subjects and/or levels) and by taking assignments at other schools. That's OK, because next year I will be back at my home school as the sole art teacher ...covering_ everything!_
> 
> ...


Some people are doing better, and some aren’t. I think it depends on what field you’re in and where you live. I don’t think it’s really a economic class thing.

I taught at a private school, and was laid off at the end of last school year. Enrollment was down for the however consecutive year, and grades 7 and 8 were eliminated. Luckily I got a job at a biotech pharmaceutical company right after my last paycheck from the school, and I’m making more than twice what I was making as a teacher, so the economy is great for me 

My wife teaches at a public school. We have a teacher’s union in NYS so schools can’t do to our teachers what they’re doing to you and teachers I know in non-union states. That stuff is just awful. I know firsthand because being a private school teacher, I was in the same boat as you. Private schools aren’t under the NYS teacher’s union here. 

Many of my friends and family are doing better than they were a few years ago. Some a lot better, some just a bit better. A few aren’t doing as well, but there’s a few other factors at play.

I guess it’s really about what you do for a living and where you are. Some places have a lot more opportunities than others. And some people have a lot more opportunities than others.


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## geezer (Mar 7, 2020)

FYI: Yes, Arizona is a "Right to work state". Unions exist, but are generally very weak, expensive to belong to, and pretty ineffective at influencing anything at the district or state level. Last year, we had a massive "Red for Ed" march and demonstration which shut down the schools for a week. But that was a broad grass roots movement supported by educators of all stripes (and secretly by many administrators) -not specifically a union thing. Unfortunately, many of the promises for raises, reduced class size, and so forth never materialized after the teachers returned to the classrooms.


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2020)

geezer said:


> FYI: Yes, Arizona is a "Right to work state". Unions exist, but are generally very weak, expensive to belong to, and pretty ineffective at influencing anything at the district or state level. Last year, we had a massive "Red for Ed" march and demonstration which shut down the schools for a week. But that was a broad grass roots movement supported by educators of all stripes (and secretly by many administrators) -not specifically a union thing. Unfortunately, many of the promises for raises, reduced class size, and so forth never materialized after the teachers returned to the classrooms.


Let me guess: administrators are getting a decent raise every year, they’re getting good retirement benefits, and there’s more of them than ever before, right? NYS is awful in this regard. A ton of schools have cut positions, the newer contracts have more benefit cuts to them (previous hires are grandfathered in); yet they keep adding admin positions and keeping their benefits and raise percentages. They don’t bring back teaching positions that were “temporarily cut” and unfilled after retirements despite their revenue increase, yet they’re adding administrators. My wife teaches at a smaller high school (about 600 students). There are about 8 positions that remain unfilled at her school (several more at the elementary school too) while the district is allegedly waiting for revenue to increase to fill those positions. The new contract’s raise percentages are lower. Yet the administrators have taken about double the percentage of raises the faculty and staff have gotten. And somehow they’ve created 5 new positions for themselves and a few support staff positions for themselves as well. One of my favorite moves was they created a position oft a guy who retired from a different district. He worked for 3 years, made more money than the highest tiered teachers, and keeps his free family heath insurance plan for life. That was the same year 3 core subject teachers retired and the district didn’t have enough money to fill any of their positions. And they still haven’t 5 years after that guy left, but they’re working on it while creating 2 more new admin positions in the same amount of time. 

Gotta love it. 

At least there were hardly any administrators at my private school. All we had was a principal; the rest worked in the diocese central office and weren’t paid much more than the teachers. But everyone’s salaries were horrendous. Adjusting and work day hours for the 12 month schedule vs 10 for teachers, admin made less. Over my 8 years there, I got a raise 5 times although I was contractually supposed to get one every year. The most I got was 2% even though the contract stipulated at least 3.5%. Every year we were told they’ll catch up to the contract next year, yet it never happened. When I left I was making almost $4k less than what I was contractually supposed to be making, not including the previous years’ money I lost out on. And every year positions were either eliminated or weren’t filled after people left (retirement or found other jobs). They started combining grades in all special areas and even a few grade levels grades 5 & 6 are in one classroom with one teacher as are grades 3 & 4. Even after the number of teachers has dwindled, the salaries have still stayed the same and raises haven’t been nearly what they’re supposed to be. Enrollment has stayed virtually the same after a big hit several years ago, and tuition has gone up more than salaries have. And the outside the classroom expectations and number of hours have increased significantly.

I visited a few friends last week to catch up. They asked me if I missed it. Simple reply: Not at all. I miss my coworkers and the students, but nothing else. It’s so much different working for a company that treats me very well. Funny thing is a lot of people at my current job have no clue how great they have it. They haven’t been where a lot of other people have been.


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## dvcochran (Mar 8, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Let me guess: administrators are getting a decent raise every year, they’re getting good retirement benefits, and there’s more of them than ever before, right? NYS is awful in this regard. A ton of schools have cut positions, the newer contracts have more benefit cuts to them (previous hires are grandfathered in); yet they keep adding admin positions and keeping their benefits and raise percentages. They don’t bring back teaching positions that were “temporarily cut” and unfilled after retirements despite their revenue increase, yet they’re adding administrators. My wife teaches at a smaller high school (about 600 students). There are about 8 positions that remain unfilled at her school (several more at the elementary school too) while the district is allegedly waiting for revenue to increase to fill those positions. The new contract’s raise percentages are lower. Yet the administrators have taken about double the percentage of raises the faculty and staff have gotten. And somehow they’ve created 5 new positions for themselves and a few support staff positions for themselves as well. One of my favorite moves was they created a position oft a guy who retired from a different district. He worked for 3 years, made more money than the highest tiered teachers, and keeps his free family heath insurance plan for life. That was the same year 3 core subject teachers retired and the district didn’t have enough money to fill any of their positions. And they still haven’t 5 years after that guy left, but they’re working on it while creating 2 more new admin positions in the same amount of time.
> 
> Gotta love it.
> 
> ...



Wow. That is a sad state of affairs. I suppose I am in the naive camp that thought there was a government structure that had most of the things you mentioned locked down and defined. If what you describe is nationwide, no wonder public schools are in such a mess.


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Wow. That is a sad state of affairs. I suppose I am in the naive camp that thought there was a government structure that had most of the things you mentioned locked down and defined. If what you describe is nationwide, no wonder public schools are in such a mess.


Class size, staff size, and the like are all collective bargaining agreements, not state mandates. Exception is special ed and phys ed. And each school district has their own collective bargaining agreement. NYSUT (NYS United Teachers) helps and backs the school district unions, but each district union negotiates their own contract.


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Wow. That is a sad state of affairs. I suppose I am in the naive camp that thought there was a government structure that had most of the things you mentioned locked down and defined. If what you describe is nationwide, no wonder public schools are in such a mess.


One last thought on the subject... NYS is one of the best states to be a public school teacher. If that gives you any indication of the state of the profession.


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## dvcochran (Mar 8, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> One last thought on the subject... NYS is one of the best states to be a public school teacher. If that gives you any indication of the state of the profession.


Yea, I just felt worse about the situation. Makes me thankful our son is finished with school.


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, I just felt worse about the situation. Makes me thankful our son is finished with school.


Maybe I should amend it and say NYS has one of the best pay scales and benefits packages for teachers. Working conditions are a different matter.

Some schools are great places to work. Those are becoming far fewer and further in between though. If it’s not the students, it’s the administration. If it’s not them, it’s the community at large. My wife’s school has it bad, admin and student-wise. I know the intricacies because we both went to school there, graduating in ‘94 and’92 (we weren’t high school sweethearts); I worked there for a year as a split appointment TA and teacher; she’s been teaching there for 10 years now. We know what it was and what its become. And we have a pretty good idea where it’ll go. Needless to say, it’s gone pretty far downhill. And it’s only getting worse. The administration is completely incompetent and brings in more incompetence year after year. Anyone who’s been good has left in quick fashion. The decisions the administration has made will make you sick. They treat the faculty and staff like absolute garbage.

I know people who work in allegedly great districts. They’ve got it better, but they’ve also got their fair share of headaches. Different headaches, but the end result is the same.


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## Buka (Mar 10, 2020)

I’m very opinionated. I have many pet peeves. But my biggest peeve concerns school teachers. Teachers should be the highest paid profession this country has or ever will have.

They are the shapers of our future.

God, I had some wonderful teachers in school.


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## JR 137 (Mar 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> I’m very opinionated. I have many pet peeves. But my biggest peeve concerns school teachers. Teachers should be the highest paid profession this country has or ever will have.
> 
> They are the shapers of our future.
> 
> God, I had some wonderful teachers in school.


I don’t know about the highest paid. I’d put police/LEO, firefighters, and soldiers in that camp. But I totally agree with your rationale. And not because my bias of being a former teacher and being married to a teacher.

My brother in law was in the Air Force, was a corrections officer, and is now a NYS Trooper. He makes good money now, but he’s still underpaid and will always be for what is risks and responsibilities are. And he was grossly underpaid in his previous jobs in that regard.

But then again, when was the last time a LEO, firefighter, soldier or teacher sold out Yankee Stadium for an average of a couple hundred bucks a ticket by doing their day to day work?

All IMO.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I’d put police/LEO, firefighters, and soldiers in that camp.




It want a high standard in these professions you need high standards in teaching.


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## JR 137 (Mar 10, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> It want a high standard in these professions you need high standards in teaching.


Same can be said for every profession.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Same can be said for every profession.




Exactly. It all starts with the children having good inspirational teachers.


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## JR 137 (Mar 10, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly. It all starts with the children having good inspirational teachers.


I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside.


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