# So many techniques



## mx49c (Jul 23, 2006)

Greetings forum, I am new.  I am just now beginning to learn some of the EPAK techniques.  I was curious to get everyone's feedback on the number of techs in this system.  I am going to choose just the ones to my liking and incorporate them into my daily routine.  

Of you who know the whole system, do you feel that you are bogged down, or less spontaneous with this many techs floating in your head?  Instead of having so many techs for the same thing (outside a right punch, or multiple two hand push defenses) I will just choose some to my liking and discard the others.  I want your feedback on that.

The other thing I wished to ask was the FLAME patch worn on the left side of the gi.  Is this only for those who participated in the 1964 Internationals?  Or  is it now accepted for any EPAK (or any kenpo style) to wear it?

Last one:  is there still an IKKA organization?  I see this rocker patch on older photos of EPAK folks, but not sure if it existed beyond Mr. Parker "leaving the building.. with elvis..."

thanks all, I look forward to the exchange.  I am excited about learning some of these techniques.

Mx


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## Brother John (Jul 23, 2006)

> I am just now beginning to learn some of the EPAK techniques.


Excellent!!! Enjoy!

....and WELCOME to Martial Talk! Though you are in Kenpo, make sure to venture to LOTS of the other sections, especially the "Beginners" section. Lots of good questions and issues raised by people just like you in similar situations, and answers from some very knowledgeable and experienced people from many different backgrounds and outlooks.
Don't miss it.


> I am going to choose just the ones to my liking and incorporate them into my daily routine.


I would very respectfully suggest that this would be a *critical* mistake on your part!!!!!! No offense, but as you are "just now beginning", what is to your "liking" would be difficult for you to judge beyond what is simply "easy". I'd suggest that this would be a foolhardy task for even an experienced Kenpoist!! Don't try to specialize! Seriously. I suggest you work all of your techniques, daily. IF you don't have a lot of time for this (which is a shame, it's the key thing beyond class attendance that a new student NEEDS the most) contact the head instructor at your studio and ask them to help you draw up a plan for your home practice time. I suggest working those techniques that are either New to you or those that you have some difficulty with first and most. Your abilities, you may find, will grow MORE from working these than things that are to your "Liking". Don't miss the good that's to be found in ALL of the system. MOST often: What you gain in one area or technique will greatly enhance your understanding and ability in many many more down the road. The foundation is being laid NOW, and as Frank Herbert said: "The beginning is a most crucial time."


> Of you who know the whole system, do you feel that you are bogged down, or less spontaneous with this many techs floating in your head? Instead of having so many techs for the same thing (outside a right punch, or multiple two hand push defenses) I will just choose some to my liking and discard the others. I want your feedback on that.


The one thing that I would PLEAD with you over is to "*Discard*" the *very idea of discarding ANYTHING.* I can't think of anything else short of HARD street drugs that would so greatly inhibit your potential to learn and grow!! I know where you are coming from with the concerns about the amount of information and "Doesn't it bog you down". The answer is NO. ((Though I, nor many others out there at all, "KNOW" The Whole system.......I am however Responsible for that which I DO know; because however much you DO know....IS Your System)) The thing is, when the time comes (God forbid) for you to Need your fighting skills......they will come, and you won't need to "Chose" what to do, you will have faced the "Right step forward punch" ((or whatever) so many times, at varying speeds, from various partners, time after time, with MULTIPLE answers......your ability to deal with it and adapt to what's occuring will be very spontaneous. 
IMAGINE: If you only knew two responses for a right step through punch to the head.... then the attacker's action, body type or the limitations/liabilities of your environment prohibits you to use those two techniques....
You're screwed. (excuse the crass term please) BUT: if you know lots of responses to this AND similar attacks.... if you are well versed in many ways to deal with similar circumstances and have executed all of these IN A BALANCED WAY (not specializing)...your response will be MORE spontaneous and your ability to really adapt will be MUCH greater!!!! (not less)

It's a lot like learning another language and then going to visit the country where that language is THE language. 
If I teach you French by handing you a book of the 10,000 most common French phrases/sentences and for five years you memorize 90% of them word for word and each words English interpretation...Great! But you're not fluent then....because once you travel to France and a Frenchman asks you a wordy question, constructed in a way that's NOT one of the 10,000 most common ways..........you're at a loss. 
BUT: to be "_fluent_" and be able to fluidly give a response appropriate to any conversation... you must understand HOW those sentences are constructed and WHY. ((*Learn BOTH: *The* How *of a technique and the* "Why",...otherwise you're getting less than HALF of what the art has to offer!*)) THEN you'd be able to "Formulate" your own response, wether it be w/in the confined parameters of a given phrase from "the book" OR spontaneously generated on your own, new...fresh......resembling some of the existing sentences from the book, but totally appropriate to the needs of the exact conversation. 
You'll spend time studying and practicing the given "Sentences" and the "Book" should *not* be 'discarded'...it is the detail of the "HOW" of the language and the vehicle to bring you to understand the "WHY"...but in the end, it's this ability to formulate extemporaneously that differentiates between a person who is 'studying' the language...........and someone who KNOWS the language!!
Think about it!
It's a pretty decent analogy, even if I do say so myself. 



> The other thing I wished to ask was the FLAME patch worn on the left side of the gi. Is this only for those who participated in the 1964 Internationals? Or is it now accepted for any EPAK (or any kenpo style) to wear it?


I got my first IKC patch (which you refer here to as "the FLAME patch") while I was a Tae Kwan Doist in the 80's. You get it by attending the International Karate Championships in Long Beach California.....that's all. You get it when you sign up and pay for your events.
I cherish mine!



> Last one: is there still an IKKA organization? I see this rocker patch on older photos of EPAK folks, but not sure if it existed beyond Mr. Parker "leaving the building.. with elvis..."


I am NOT the one to answer this, there are those here that could though.



> I am excited about learning some of these techniques.


I'm happy for you!!!! Seriously. Getting to meet the techniques, forms and sets for the first time was a BLAST!!!!! Learn them well and they will serve you well. 
BUT: as before, I plead with you....don't be excited about "Some"; cultivate an interest and thirst for the Entire art. It is a "system", just like the human body is a 'system'....which part of the body would you neglect so that you could focus on your 'favorites"? Is that 'healthy'??
no...
Take care of ALL of it, and your favorites....as well as all the others, will be MUCH MUCH better off for it.

Keep training.........and keep it FUN

Your Brother
John


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## DutchKenpo (Jul 23, 2006)

Hi mx94c!

Welcome to MartialTalk,
I'll try and answer a few of your questions.

About the ikc patch, my opinion is you can only wear it, if you earned it, by competing in or by organising the event. I have one "original" just for sentimental sake and because I have something of a collection of patches.
I also have a modified flame on my gi, because I competed in the 2004 irish editon of the european ikc, in stead of brown black and red, its in the "irish" orange and green.

Then about the techniques, my opinion is this, well its more of a routine I do, every chance I have, I try to do or visualize a technique that doesn't feel good or needs more work. 
Same goes for forms and basics. I think if you pick the ones you like, you will misout on the difficult ones and skip them, the ones you like you'll do them anyway.

I don't believe you can be limited by the number of techniques, provided you train them vigorously, but also be creative and look for similarities in the techniques, eventualy you discover that there not very different from one another.

Good question and good training to you!

grtz, Bob Hessel


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## spiderboy (Jul 23, 2006)

Hi mx94c,

When you start finding spontenaety in your kenpo, you will regularly use the moves that feel most natural for you. But take time to explore what is out there, give yourself a chance to feel as many of the techs as possible so you can have the best chance in the future of choosing the right move at the right time.

Think of a tool box - most of the time you will use the hammer, wrench, saw, plane - the basic, 'easy' tools. Once in a while you need the fiddly little doohicky, or your work for the day grinds to a halt. Consider the tricky/boring/uncomfortable techniques the ones you keep at the bottom of your tool box, use rarely, but might need all the same.

This analogy is even funnier if you know me - I couldnt use a wrench to save my life. 

But even if you only ever learn 3 techs - practice them over and over, and enjoy your Kenpo.


Alex 

BKKU


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## Brother John (Jul 23, 2006)

BUT:
That's really odd......
In your post you mention that your're just now studying Kenpo (Beginner) but in your profile it says "1st Dan"
What gives??

Thanks


Your Brother
John


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## mx49c (Jul 23, 2006)

I should have clarified.  I am a 1st DAN with the Karate Connection (kenpo), not EPAK.  I need to fix that profile.  I have a vast video library of Parker Kenpo and am able to understand all of it.  I am not training in a dojo at this time.   I just finished viewing all 250 techs and found many of them to be redundant or extraneous for my needs (not to subtract from those who are in the system, but I already know another system and don't need the full compliment from EPAK).  I am seeking only to augment my existing kenpo knowlege with parker techs (or pieces of it) because I found some things that were not in my other kenpo training.  I am not looking to learn the whole system.  There were approx 20 parker techs I have targetted.

Is there an EPAK form that has all of the techniques in it?  Not sure how your forms work, but with the IKCA we had a master form of all the tech's.

thanks


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## Brother John (Jul 23, 2006)

I'm familiar with the IKCA and it's 'master form', I think it's a neat idea.

What is it that you feel was lacking in your previous training? Particular attacks?   ..or what??  (not at ALL so that I can pick on you or disagree with you, but so that I could discuss it with you:  use E-mail if you feel more comfortable with that)

There's not a form that has ALL of the techniques. WOW....could you imagine it's length?? wow...
But forms 1-5, especially form 4, are considered to be pretty comprehensive. The way the techniques are executed w/in EPAK are not 'exactly' the same method of execution found w/in the SD-techs, but pretty close at least. It's been said that Mr. Parker thought one could get from white to black simply based on form 4 alone. ((or something like that....maybe someone more knowledgeable could correct me))

Your Brother
John


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## michaeledward (Jul 23, 2006)

I recommend that you find a way to sit in a private lesson with an American Kenpo senior for an afternoon. 

I believe there is no way that you can do what you wish to do by watching a video tape. We have had many discussions on this board about using video to *supplement* training.

If, several years from now, I found out I was studying American Kenpo with someone who undertook the course of action you are suggestion, I would be pretty upset.


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## mx49c (Jul 23, 2006)

MICHAEL:  This is great, I am appreciating all of the constructive, honest feedback you guys are giving me.  I think the majority of practicioners hold the same belief as you, and the video dissent is not unique to just this forum, I read at great length on others too.   Most frown upon it; as I did previously. 

My story:  I trained (hands on) in Judo & TKD about 23 years ago, and if you would had told me back then, that I'd be contemplating video to learn, I would have not believed it;  but my participation in that great experiment for the past 2 years has really changed my mind.  I have learned it is the level of detail that counts, which included having the 4-angle view (with close ups) that made the difference, as well as video taped private lessons back & fourth with a first rate instructor like Jerry Brooksher of Kansas.  Albeit I agree with you that I would not originally gone out of my way to train from an instructor who learned from video (there is a stigma with that), but when I heard that Jerry was totally video trained, I was astonished that someone that good could have done the same thing I was embarking upon.  That clinched it for me.

Not to confuse video instruction with having partners.  These are two different subjects.  Granted, you got to have a live partner to do it up right, in my case I had a dummy & live parners.  The IKCA has a unique set up and the technical support exceeded my pessimistic disposition. They hold seminars as well, and that is what clinched it for me earlier this year.  

I have been to a few of the kenpo schools around here that teach EPAK, and I have learned more thru my interaction with kenpo video instruction (Panther Series, Tatum, & IKCA), as well as  Infinite Insights books and these forums, than I have with your average "live" instructor.  But that is my story, I realize not everyone has the quest to go out & find their own answers and have the drive to research as I have.

BROTHER JOHN:  To answer your question as to why I am learning some of the EPAK, its because I have a hunger for what is out there, and what existed before the IKCA.  The Karate connection took all of the parker concepts and individual moves and made a 55 technique system from them.  Sounds easy?  Nope, it took me 2 years to learn and get to the top (and that is quicker than most), and they actually fail students on their tests.   There is no circumvention of their ladder.   Tests are graded and private lessons are provided to the student upon passing/failing.  They must see a change by the next belt in your mistakes.  Attending the seminars is the greatest way to learn, and to meet respected Kenpoists like Vic LeRoux & Chuck Sullivan. While filming your test, you also use that avenue to ask questions.  They also take calls & emails as well. That is why their video program works, is because they stand behind it (like back up mass !). I've never seen better customer support than how they handle it.  What other organization can a white belt  pick up the phone & speak to the Grandmaster?

Back to my reason for viewing the 250 parker techs on video. I saw a few things I liked (about 17 tech's) that seem to work for me & made me think of some new things. These 17 I chose were moves that went off-angle, instead of linear.  I like that, and eat that stuff up.  I think circular motion violates the attackers expectancy, so thats why. I am using some of the parker techs to be extenstions on my IKCA material, & visa versa.

I realize many out there do not agree with my motus operandi, but I am not really putting it out there for debate  (because its a mute point that it worked for me), rather I was just looking to say say hi to the group & to get some feedback on my questions on EPAK.  I will definitely have Q's as I begin my EPAK material.  Tonight I just did TRIGGERED SALUTE for one hour, including the 1st brown extension.  I added hidden moves as I went along.  It was fun.
good day


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