# Testing your Skill Level ?



## michaeledward (Sep 10, 2003)

Tess posted something about 'confidence' ... and in my response, I was going to say something about how skilled I am versus how skilled I think I am; and of course, we have the colored belt system that should say _something_ about our skill level. 

How can you truly determine your skill level? How can you measure it against other Martial Practitioners? How can you measure it against the general population?

I have heard rumors of some very experienced Kenpoists will go out on the town hoping to, or looking to, pick a fight ... just to see how really good they are . . . would you ever do that?

Sure, we can put on the protective gear and step into a ring and have someone wave a flag or earn a trophy, but is that *really* testing our skill levels?

Mike


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by michaeledward _
> *...I was going to say something about how skilled I am versus how skilled I think I am; and of course, we have the colored belt system that should say something about our skill level.  *



And obviously the belts don't always tell the truth. When I was training in TKD there were a couple of students from another local school that were just phenominal. As green belts they won many numerous tournaments and their skill level was incredible. As far as fighting wise they were much better than I was but yet my instructor thought I was worthy enough of wearing a black belt. Should I have been ranked that far ahead of them :idunno: . 



> How can you truly determine your skill level?



In my opinion it will be your students who show your knowledge, skill, and abilities to continue the art.



> How can you measure it against other Martial Practitioners?



Extremely tough. If you are comparing kenpo to other arts it should be better and more complex. That is just my opinion.



> How can you measure it against the general population?



Again that's a very tough question to answer. Maybe someone on here with more knowledge than me can answer these last 2 questions better than me.



> I have heard rumors of some very experienced Kenpoists will go out on the town hoping to, or looking to, pick a fight ... just to see how really good they are . . . would you ever do that?



I wouldn't because I'm perfectly fine here in my own home.



> Sure, we can put on the protective gear and step into a ring and have someone wave a flag or earn a trophy, but is that really testing our skill levels?



In some aspects I say yes.:asian:


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## FiveSwords (Sep 10, 2003)

> How can you measure it against the general population?



My instructor tells us a story about something SGM Parker said to one of his students once: (paraphrasing)

"After 6 months of training, you will be able to hold your own against 9 out of 10 guys on the street.  But for that 10th guy, you will have to train for the rest of your life."

Moral of the story: You never know who that 10th guy will be.   :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *Moral of the story: You never know who that 10th guy will be.   :asian: *



I like that!:asian:


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## Disco (Sep 10, 2003)

> How can you determine your skill level?



Answer: You really can't, Unless you have to put it on the line for real.



> How can you measure it against other Martial Artists?


Answer: Only in the ring under controled conditions. Now this opens other arguments I know, but put it in this perspective. If it's not in the ring, then it will be for real. That takes it out of context for an examination of skill and puts it into a survival mode. I know, and I'm sure you know some people that train and really don't look all that good doing it. But we all know that it dosen't have to look pretty to be affective. If it's in the ring, then it becomes a test of athleticism and we all know that we are not created equal physically.



> Against the general population



Answer: You better a step or two or more above the average citizen. A street punk/fighter, you most certainly should be better.
If you don't think your not, then you've trained and studied for nothing and whatever/whoever you trained in/with did a lousy job.

 :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 11, 2003)

How about visiting the boxing gym and see how you hold up under their rules; then go to a BJJ school and see how you fare.  Vale Tudo tournaments are as close as you come.  The adreniline, the fear, the fight.

Get outside your box.  You don't have to go test yourself on the street.  I see this as a highly irresponsible suggestion and one that can get you killed or in jail. :rofl: 

(so did I tell you the one about the attorney getting arrested and going to jail?  You just don't want to go there.)

Work with Sigung LaBounty on some Guts or Survival drills.  Check out some full contact schools or even a serious Judo dojo.  

I can think of lots of ways of testing myself without going and finding a fight.  I don't have to shoot someone to know how how to draw, aim and fire.  Live simulations in hot rooms will do it.  Sucessive approximations of reality get you as ready as you can be for the reality.

Train, Train, Train some more, then go get outside your box.  Come back and evaluate what you learned and apply solutions or remedies as needed.  Problem solve logically with training partners, then pattern in the responses.

Good Luck. :asian:


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## Zoran (Sep 11, 2003)

It's a very good question you ask.

Testing ones skill as a Kenpoist would involve testing our skill according to what we train for. Which is self defense. 

*So how do you test your skills then?* 
Since we train for a life and death street confrontation, you can't use any of the Martial Arts sports as a test. All that shows is your skill in that particular sport period. If you step into a boxing ring, you will see how you fare within that particular set of rules and you are testing your skills as a boxer.

*So can you test your skills?*
Legally and morally the answer would have to be NO. The only thing that can happen is you could have your skills tested. This is not your choice. If you are attacked, or protecting another from an attack your skills may be tested. However, looking for this type of confrontation would not just be morally and legally wrong, it can be very dagerous.

There are police officers, soldiers, bouncers, bodyguards, and etc., that may have their self defense skills tested. This could happen as a part of their job. However, even in those types of jobs, it is preferrable not to get into that sort of situation. However, it can be more likely that it will happen as those jobs usually puts you in more aggressive situations than the average citizen.


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 11, 2003)

I for sure am not going to test my skills against Billings!!!!!!!  He is the Texas Tornado!!  (and yes, I have felt his punch)!!  ouch..

:asian:


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## MisterMike (Sep 16, 2003)

And let's not forget about the butterflies you'll have. 

On the street, there may not be anyone to stop the 'match.' Knowing this going into it, you'll have a completely different mindset than sayyyyy, sparring in class.

You may be the fastest at your school at parrying those combinations coming at you, but add to it now, yelling, surprise, psychological aspects, and you may not fair so well.


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## Kempo Guy (Sep 16, 2003)

Get a body armor similar to Tony Blauer's "High Gear" and go at it against real resistance. Imho, that's the closest you can get to a "real fight". Although there's some padding the impact is felt and there is still a chance of a knockout (I've seen it happen).

Simulating fights with the verbal posturing helps a lot. Staging "micro fights" will kick your fear reactivity into high gear. 

It will always be a "simulation"...

KG


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## Seig (Sep 16, 2003)

I do things like when I see one of my students in public, if they don't see me:
I walk up behind them and grab or attack them.


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *I do things like when I see one of my students in public, if they don't see me:
> I walk up behind them and grab or attack them. *



Some day you're gonna get a :btg: from one of them or scare the:fart: out of them.....

:rofl:


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## Seig (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Some day you're gonna get a :btg: from one of them or scare the:fart: out of them.....
> 
> :rofl: *


If I get a successfull :btg: thenI know I have trained them well.  If they :fart: themselves, then I know they need more work.


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## jeffkyle (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *If I get a successfull :btg: thenI know I have trained them well.  If they :fart: themselves, then I know they need more work. *




:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


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## LadyDragon (Sep 17, 2003)

I don't go around looking for a fight.  And personally, I couldn't understand why anyone would put themselves in harms way to see how good they are in their particular art.

If you get caught in a situation, and you have no choice but to fight your way out, and you survive.  Then you know that your training has been worth while.  Standing in a ring and playing patty cake with someone and winning a trophy means nothing.

You train for yourself and the love of your art, not to be able to go around picking fights.  But again, if you have no choice, by all means defend yourself, and I mean just that DEFEND yourself.


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## MisterMike (Sep 17, 2003)

> I don't go around looking for a fight. And personally, I couldn't understand why anyone would put themselves in harms way to see how good they are in their particular art.



Right on! In reality, most of us aren't even going to get a chance to use a Kenpo technique to defend ourselves. I'm sure that there are some statistics out there that depending on where you live, your odds are higher of being assaulted or mugged, but where I'm from, I don't see it happening. Andif someone in my old school were constantly coming in with battle scars, we'd be a bit weary of his character.

So to me, this sort of makes "self-defense" a bit over-rated, no?


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## MJS (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempo Guy _
> *Get a body armor similar to Tony Blauer's "High Gear" and go at it against real resistance. Imho, that's the closest you can get to a "real fight". Although there's some padding the impact is felt and there is still a chance of a knockout (I've seen it happen).
> 
> Simulating fights with the verbal posturing helps a lot. Staging "micro fights" will kick your fear reactivity into high gear.
> ...



Those suits are awesome!!!  They definately give you the chance to go all out w/o the other guy getting hurt.  Putting yourself into a stressfull situation during training, is going to help you get used to that adrenalin rush, so if you find yourself in a life/death situation, your body will react better.

Mike


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## MJS (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by LadyDragon _
> *I don't go around looking for a fight.  And personally, I couldn't understand why anyone would put themselves in harms way to see how good they are in their particular art.
> 
> If you get caught in a situation, and you have no choice but to fight your way out, and you survive.  Then you know that your training has been worth while.  Standing in a ring and playing patty cake with someone and winning a trophy means nothing.
> ...



I dont think that it has anything to do with picking a fight.  Instead, it has to do with making sure that you will be able to defend yourself.  If you dont include any realism or aliveness in your training, then how can you be sure that the art that you've spent the last x number of years learning, is going to help you??

Do you need to look for a fight to do this? No.  Instead, as I said above, training with realism and putting yourself into the stressful situations while in the dojo, will be a huge plus for you if you need to defend yourself on the street.

Mike


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## Kempo Guy (Sep 18, 2003)

MJS,

Yeah, the "high gear" suits are sweet. However, you can still get hurt. 


Ladydragon,

I'm not sure whether or not you were directing your comments to my post but I think a lot can be learned from suiting up and simulating an encounter as it probably will teach you more about yourself than a year 'playing tag' in the studio or flapping your arms against a 'willing' partner.  

I'll provide an example of the type of training I'm referring to.

A while back we were doing a simulation where the "victim" was at an ATM (ok, so we pretended it was an ATM). Anyway, the simulation started with another guy (the would be attacker) walking up to him. After a verbal exchange between the two (the attacker was distracting him) another guy, the accomplice, came up behind the victim who was unaware this was going to happen. Now this is where things will get interesting... 
The accomplice rushed the victim for a takedown from behind. (Keep in mind all the participants are wearing "armor" and this is 'anything goes' type of training). Somehow the victim managed to free himself (it wasn't pretty) and managed to cut the first guy off in mid-stride with a heelpalm strike to the helmet (it knocked the guy out)... he managed to distract the accomplice enough to get out of the 'area'.

As you can see, this has very little to do with playing 'patty cake'.
I agree with the statement that one trains for oneself and because you enjoy doing it. However if you are serious about DEFENDING yourself, you should take the precautionary steps and train to defend yourself by training alive against fully resistant opponents.

As mentioned by MisterMike, the chances that anyone is going to get attacked are rather slim, much less being able to use your chosen art. However many people are under the illusion that they can actually defend themselves which in many cases are not the case (even with many years of training).

KG


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## LadyDragon (Sep 18, 2003)

I do agree that your training should be done as realistic as possible.  But that still doesn't mean going out on the street and looking to pick a fight with someone just to prove that your good in MA's.  MA's should be use only when its needed.  It isn't something that should be abused by whom ever it is that has the ma's knowledge.

Putting a training partner in some type of body armor and having all at it with them is fabulous.  But being put in a ring to try and earn points for a trophy is going to prove nothing about your ma's ability.  All it shows is that you're the faster and probably luckier of the two people in the ring at that particular time.

I love the ma's and would hate to hear of someone in my school or any where for that matter abusing of their ma's knowledge.  But I do know that it happens all the time.  If you ask me, those are the type of people that give ma's a bad name.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 18, 2003)

I disagree with your comment about "getting in the ring", but overall agree completely with your sentiment.

Tournaments or Sparring does measure more than who is faster, it is who is more knowledgable, who moves better, or has more "ring savvy(sp?)", who has the better timing.  The training partner who is bigger, stronger, or quicker, but who has less time in the Art, should be able to be defeated by the person who has more time AT the Art.

Yes, I do know better guys, but lets look at the ideal for a second.  Why would any guy who is an adult below normal height and weight get in the Martial Arts.  I am assuming it is to learn how to fight bigger opponents and not be a victim.  Not that this is everyone's reason, but the hidden insecurities or fears are part of our psyche and an emotional imperative exists to survive, regardless of whether we are aware of it or not.

Test yourself with the Redman suit or FIST makes a good full body suit for training.  

Nobody in their right mind should go out and look for fights.  I hope this is a purely intellectual discussion and you don't really go out and "test" yourselves this way.  It is an increadibly stupid thing to do.  You never know when you will run into a gun or knife or slip and fall.  If you want an adreniline rush, go jump out of a plane, don't go looking for fights then encourage others to.  It is very irresponsible to put this up as a way of "proving" your Art. 

Unless you are a bouncer in a bar, or peace officer, unless you compete in a contact sport, like boxing, Muay Thai, etc., you should not be engaging in fights, enless your life is being threatened.  Your potential for doing permanent injury to someone goes up as your training continues.  It is so easy to slip and really maim or damage someone, once you have spent years and years in some of the heavier contact arts, or more destructive styles.

Think before you post something that a 14 year old boy is going to go try.  Geez.

-MB


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## LadyDragon (Sep 18, 2003)

You're right Mr. Billings, there is skill and other technical issues in sparring other than just luck and speed.  But the point I'm trying to make is that you can prove to yourself that you're going to survive out on the streets just because you know how to survive in a ring.  The situations are completely different.  No one really knows what they're going to do in that type of scenario until they're truely there.

And I completely agree with your statement about giving ideas to others with this thread.  But what I see as a good point with this thread is that people were already out there trying to prove something to themselves.  Who knows, maybe if they read all these posts, they'll think twice before going out on the streets and getting themselves hurt.  Or even worste, hurting someone else.


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## Kempo Guy (Sep 18, 2003)

Mr. Billings,



> Think before you post something that a 14 year old boy
> is going to go try. Geez.



Who are you directing this comment at?

As for tournaments, I believe they are a good thing... i.e. full-contact type tournaments. I don't really think the regular 'tag game' played are all that helpful, except for perhaps performing 'under pressure'.

And finally, NO ONE should go out looking for fights. The chances you get hurt are way too big, not to mention the legal ramifications of such things.

KG


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## MJS (Sep 18, 2003)

Getting in the ring is probably the best place to find what works and what doesnt.  I'im not talking about doing tournys or point sparring, I'm talking about making some contact, not having so many limits on what you can and cant do, and include some standing grappling as well as on the ground.

Mike


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## CoolKempoDude (Sep 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *
> 
> Why would any guy who is an adult below normal height and weight get in the Martial Arts.  I am assuming it is to learn how to fight bigger opponents and not be a victim.  Not that this is everyone's reason, but the hidden insecurities or fears are part of our psyche and an emotional imperative exists to survive, regardless of whether we are aware of it or not.
> ...



Everybody always has fear inside each of us. Overcoming this fear takes a lot of times and courages.

there is nothing wrong with a person who is NOT tall and NOT big to learn MA.

It is wise to do so. Better be prepared than be a victim. 

Bigger doesn't mean better and it also is not a guarantee for every victory.

When you fight with somebody, you will always fight with somebody who is BIGGER and BETTER than you. In some cases, you will fight more than 1 person AT THE SAME TIME

what i try to say is you will always fight UNFAIRLY.

how many of you see a small and skinny bad guy after a BIG and MUSCULAR guy ???

do you see any bad guy come up to the cop and point the gun at the cop for 20 dollars ??


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## Doc (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *My instructor tells us a story about something SGM Parker said to one of his students once: (paraphrasing)
> 
> "After 6 months of training, you will be able to hold your own against 9 out of 10 guys on the street.  But for that 10th guy, you will have to train for the rest of your life."
> ...



I watched Ed Parker working with a guy before a tournament in the sixties. He was showing him a combination. Parker said, "Just give him a one than three." He kept repeating it over and over while demonstrating to the student, "One, three, one, three." Finally the student asked curiously, Mr. Parker what happened to the two?' Mr. Parker smiled and said, "Oh the other guy is going to get hit you with two." the lesson was a simple one. Even if you do everything right, you still get hit. Be prepared for it.


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

Sadly a lot of schools don't teach that.  They teach you to think you are invinsible, when reality is, if you get in a fight, you will most likely get hit.  A lot of people live in la la land, but some realize, that the arts just make us more prepared for the situation.

" No matter how good of a swimmer you are, if you swim in a pool of sharks you are bound to get bit".

Or something like that


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## Kroy (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *My instructor tells us a story about something SGM Parker said to one of his students once: (paraphrasing)
> 
> "After 6 months of training, you will be able to hold your own against 9 out of 10 guys on the street.  But for that 10th guy, you will have to train for the rest of your life."
> ...



I like that story and it's so true because there is always someone better.


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## Doc (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Sadly a lot of schools don't teach that.  They teach you to think you are invinsible, when reality is, if you get in a fight, you will most likely get hit.  A lot of people live in la la land, but some realize, that the arts just make us more prepared for the situation.
> 
> " No matter how good of a swimmer you are, if you swim in a pool of sharks you are bound to get bit".
> ...


You sir, said a mouthful.


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## redfang (Sep 24, 2003)

I test my skill level by wandering the countryside challenging other martial artists in duels to the death in solitary and aesthetically pleasing locations.


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## CoolKempoDude (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I watched Ed Parker working with a guy before a tournament in the sixties. He was showing him a combination. Parker said, "Just give him a one than three." He kept repeating it over and over while demonstrating to the student, "One, three, one, three." Finally the student asked curiously, Mr. Parker what happened to the two?' Mr. Parker smiled and said, "Oh the other guy is going to get hit you with two." the lesson was a simple one. Even if you do everything right, you still get hit. Be prepared for it. *



i wonder why 3 men attack doesn't work in this situation ???. If we get hit, what is the point of learning 3 men attack ?????


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## Zoran (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redfang _
> *I test my skill level by wandering the countryside challenging other martial artists in duels to the death in solitary and aesthetically pleasing locations. *



I do my challenges on top of a tall building, preferrably in front of a neon sign.


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