# Purple Belt technique questions



## Kyoshi

Question1:
Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.

Question2:
Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.

Question3:
Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy? 

Question4:
Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?

Question5:
Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...

Question6:
Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?

Question 7:
Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.

Question 8:
Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?

Thanks for your time and Patience.


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## MattJ

Kyoshi said:


> Question1:
> Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.


 
Haha, technically, I suppose it should. Remember that the opponent _should be_ off-balance from both the initial block and the first elbow, though. 



> Question2:
> Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.
> 
> Question3:
> Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy?


 
I'll "leave" the family questions to someone else. 



> Question4:
> Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?


 
I always did the counter-rotation for the back-fist strike. I didn't check his hand so much as keep mine up in case he threw something at my face, or that side of my body.



> Question5:
> Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...


 
I always moved my right foot slightly off-line, although the technique doesn't call for it.



> Question6:
> Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?


 
Yes, in close. I was shown, and always taught it, as someone pulling you backwards towards them.



> Question 7:
> Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.


 
I never liked this move. A downward block will not stop an uppercut, unless you flap the elbow in (changing the plane from horizontal to vertical) to deflect it, which also aligns for your counter-uppercut. Whoops.....I mean back-knuckle. LOL. I would agree with the teacher in this case - you don't want to leap into an uppercut. 



> Question 8:
> Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?


 
I was shown this move as the guy is pushing you forward. You have to take the step with the left to keep from getting pushed over. You turn and strike, hopefully getting colliding forces from his momentum still moving in.


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## Touch Of Death

Kyoshi said:


> Question1:
> Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.
> 
> Lose the horse.
> 
> 
> 
> Question2:
> Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.
> 
> Its the same basic elbow motion. The elbow is naturally obscure, don't do and obscure elbow (weak motion).
> 
> Question3:
> Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy?
> 
> I would argue that, in Twirling Wings, your albows arent exactly horizontle, but diagonal. Think Thrust!
> 
> Question4:
> Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?
> 
> Because it could be; the logic of return motion dictates you check the arm that is extended toward you in attack.
> 
> Question5:
> Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...
> 
> 
> Shuffle in.
> 
> Question6:
> Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?
> 
> Do a different tech.
> 
> Question 7:
> Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.
> 
> Sounds alright for a variation but don't do it or teach it as a base.
> 
> Question 8:
> Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?
> 
> Its a purposefull defiance to purposefull compliance tech. Pull him and he will pull back... maybe.
> 
> Thanks for your time and Patience.


 
Sean


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## Kyoshi

Thanks alot both of you .)


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## punisher73

As to Raining Claw, I think it will help to both define "uppercut" and "downward block".

Think of the uppercut as more of a roundhouse type attack coming from that angle as opposed to a boxer's tight in uppercut punch.

As to the downward block, the motion is downward, but think more of striking down onto the punching arm as opposed to the downward block that we practice in star block and short/long 1.  It is a slightly different motion, almost an inward/downward as opposed to just downward.

Here is a clip of the technique.


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## Touch Of Death

punisher73 said:


> As to Raining Claw, I think it will help to both define "uppercut" and "downward block".
> 
> Think of the uppercut as more of a roundhouse type attack coming from that angle as opposed to a boxer's tight in uppercut punch.
> 
> As to the downward block, the motion is downward, but think more of striking down onto the punching arm as opposed to the downward block that we practice in star block and short/long 1. It is a slightly different motion, almost an inward/downward as opposed to just downward.
> 
> Here is a clip of the technique.


Or re-define.


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## punisher73

Touch Of Death said:


> Or re-define.


 
Good point, better choice of words.


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## Doc

Kyoshi said:


> Question1:
> Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.
> 
> Question2:
> Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.
> 
> Question3:
> Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy?
> 
> Question4:
> Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?
> 
> Question5:
> Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...
> 
> Question6:
> Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?
> 
> Question 7:
> Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.
> 
> Question 8:
> Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?
> 
> Thanks for your time and Patience.


No offense, but do you have an instructor? If you do, the questions are better directed at him. If not, the answers won't help you in reality, and merely spawn more questions of the same.


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## MattJ

Doc said:


> No offense, but do you have an instructor? If you do, the questions are better directed at him. If not, the answers won't help you in reality, and merely spawn more questions of the same.


 
"No offense"? Seriously? What's wrong with him asking questions here? Isn't that what this place is for?


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## Kyoshi

Yes i do have an instructor.
I have been training martialarts for the last 14 years, thought only ½ a year in EPAK-style.

Me and my instructor have different backgrounds in various martialarts, whereas we debate the techniques and tailor them to fit our individual and our needs. 

I do indeed have asked my instructor, but is it prohibited to ask others instructors/fellow EPAK-practitioners as well...?

Im with EPAK Denmark under Ingmar Johannson from sweden, Planas Lineage...


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## Touch Of Death

Kyoshi said:


> Yes i do have an instructor.
> I have been training martialarts for the last 14 years, thought only ½ a year in EPAK-style.
> 
> Me and my instructor have different backgrounds in various martialarts, whereas we debate the techniques and tailor them to fit our individual and our needs.
> 
> I do indeed have asked my instructor, but is it prohibited to ask others instructors/fellow EPAK-practitioners as well...?
> 
> Im with EPAK Denmark under Ingmar Johannson from sweden, Planas Lineage...


Its not a problem.
Sean


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## Flying Crane

Doc said:


> No offense, but do you have an instructor? If you do, the questions are better directed at him. If not, the answers won't help you in reality, and merely spawn more questions of the same.


 
beat me to it



Kyoshi said:


> Yes i do have an instructor.
> I have been training martialarts for the last 14 years, thought only ½ a year in EPAK-style.
> 
> Me and my instructor have different backgrounds in various martialarts, whereas we debate the techniques and tailor them to fit our individual and our needs.
> 
> I do indeed have asked my instructor, but is it prohibited to ask others instructors/fellow EPAK-practitioners as well...?
> 
> Im with EPAK Denmark under Ingmar Johannson from sweden, Planas Lineage...


 
I think maybe the real question is, has your instructor given you answers to these questions?

here's the thing: there are many lineages of kenpo that trace back to Mr. Parker.  When you start going across lineages, you will often find a lot of disagreement on how things ought to be done.  If you start changing what you do based on a mish-mash of answers that you get from people outside your lineage, you are going to create a lot more confusion about what you are trying to do.

The answers to these questions are best gotten from your teacher, especially since you are very new to kenpo.  Better to build your kenpo with consistency.  Later, once you have reached a deeper level of understanding and skill, it might be appropriate to look outside your lineage to see how others are doing things.  But at this stage of your development, it's probably not a good idea.

Ya gotta keep in mind, all kenpo is not the same, and it isn't all simply interchangeable.


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## Touch Of Death

Doc said:


> No offense, but do you have an instructor? If you do, the questions are better directed at him. If not, the answers won't help you in reality, and merely spawn more questions of the same.


I think we can all agree that not everyone has access to the quantity or quality of instruction that teachers such as yourself posses. It would only seem to follow that a kenpoist would enjoy seeing what the web has to offer. See Kenpotalk.com for examples of possible kenpo information.
sean


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> beat me to it
> 
> 
> 
> I think maybe the real question is, has your instructor given you answers to these questions?
> 
> here's the thing: there are many lineages of kenpo that trace back to Mr. Parker.  When you start going across lineages, you will often find a lot of disagreement on how things ought to be done.  If you start changing what you do based on a mish-mash of answers that you get from people outside your lineage, you are going to create a lot more confusion about what you are trying to do.
> 
> The answers to these questions are best gotten from your teacher, especially since you are very new to kenpo.  Better to build your kenpo with consistency.  Later, once you have reached a deeper level of understanding and skill, it might be appropriate to look outside your lineage to see how others are doing things.  But at this stage of your development, it's probably not a good idea.
> 
> Ya gotta keep in mind, all kenpo is not the same, and it isn't all simply interchangeable.


On the other hand it could be the best thing he did for his art.
sean


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> On the other hand it could be the best thing he did for his art.
> sean


 
personally, I doubt it.

He's asking a lot of questions on specific technical aspects of the SD techs.  It's almost like he's trying to learn the techs thru internet discussion. This is the kind of thing that needs hands-on work, and he should get the answers from his instructor.  Like I said, at least at this stage of his development.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> personally, I doubt it.
> 
> He's asking a lot of questions on specific technical aspects of the SD techs.  It's almost like he's trying to learn the techs thru internet discussion. This is the kind of thing that needs hands-on work, and he should get the answers from his instructor.  Like I said, at least at this stage of his development.


We shall see. They do have other arts under the belt.
Sean


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:


> personally, I doubt it.
> 
> He's asking a lot of questions on specific technical aspects of the SD techs.  It's almost like he's trying to learn the techs thru internet discussion. This is the kind of thing that needs hands-on work, and he should get the answers from his instructor.  Like I said, at least at this stage of his development.



That was my feeling, and the questions are really very detailed about something he should theoretically already have a base understanding of. Ultimately, it is your teacher that you have to satisfy, and answers of this specificity may generate disparate understandings between you and those who teach you. You must do what they want you do and subscribe to their philosophy. General questions are fine and we seek to answer those all the time, but it sounds like you're trying to learn the form on line, and that you cannot do. I know Richard and Ingmar and they are VERY specific in their teaching so .......... I repeat, "Discuss these issues with your teacher." In the long run, if you're an actual student, it will pay bigger dividends when it comes to testing and promotions within your lineage.


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## MattJ

Very disappointed here. Doc, no offense, but who are you to limit the specificity of questions allowed on this forum? The guy has 14 years of training - I think we can assume that he has the "base understanding" to be able to ask detailed questions. To stifle legit inquisition is........unseemly, at best. I see nothing wrong with him asking here. Maye he wants to compare answers with what his instructor has already told him? 

I don't agree with a one-way student/teacher relationship.


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## Flying Crane

MattJ said:


> Very disappointed here. Doc, no offense, but who are you to limit the specificity of questions allowed on this forum? The guy has 14 years of training - I think we can assume that he has the "base understanding" to be able to ask detailed questions. To stifle legit inquisition is........unseemly, at best. I see nothing wrong with him asking here. Maye he wants to compare answers with what his instructor has already told him?
> 
> I don't agree with a one-way student/teacher relationship.


 
since I'm in Doc's camp here, I'll chip in my two cents...

nobody's trying to limit what someone can ask, nor the type of questions here in the forums.  What we are trying to do is point out that asking these questions in this forum, in this format, under these circumstances, is likely to give him answers that don't help him, and may well make things worse for him.  These are the types of questions that he needs to get the answers from his instructor, not a bunch of people on the internet who he doesn't even know, and whose judgement and knowledge he cannot rely on as even trustworthy (yes, I include myself in that, he doesn't know me and has no reason to trust me either).

I don't believe his 14 years of experience is necessarily a benefit here.  It might be, it might not be.  Most likely what he has done for 14 years is different from kenpo, and he's in enough of a beginner stage with his kenpo that he'll probably default into doing his kenpo like whatever else it was he has done for the last 14 years.  Instead, he should learn his kenpo according to the standards and methodologies of kenpo, as established by his instructor.

He came on here and asked questions.  A couple of us gave answers that maybe some people, including him, don't like to hear.  So fine, ignore our advice.  But our advice was given with good intentions, and what amazes me is the level of indignation that people get, when they receive advice that they were not hoping to get, even tho they asked for advice.  We gave the best advice we had to give, and we gave it with the best intentions.  He doesn't need to listen to us.

So fine, he's welcome to learn his kenpo thru the internet.  And we all wonder why kenpo and all other martial arts today suck, with only a very few individual exceptions.


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:


> since I'm in Doc's camp here, I'll chip in my two cents...
> 
> nobody's trying to limit what someone can ask, nor the type of questions here in the forums.  What we are trying to do is point out that asking these questions in this forum, in this format, under these circumstances, is likely to give him answers that don't help him, and may well make things worse for him.  These are the types of questions that he needs to get the answers from his instructor, not a bunch of people on the internet who he doesn't even know, and whose judgement and knowledge he cannot rely on as even trustworthy (yes, I include myself in that, he doesn't know me and has no reason to trust me either).
> 
> I don't believe his 14 years of experience is necessarily a benefit here.  It might be, it might not be.  Most likely what he has done for 14 years is different from kenpo, and he's in enough of a beginner stage with his kenpo that he'll probably default into doing his kenpo like whatever else it was he has done for the last 14 years.  Instead, he should learn his kenpo according to the standards and methodologies of kenpo, as established by his instructor.
> 
> He came on here and asked questions.  A couple of us gave answers that maybe some people, including him, don't like to hear.  So fine, ignore our advice.  But our advice was given with good intentions, and what amazes me is the level of indignation that people get, when they receive advice that they were not hoping to get, even tho they asked for advice.  We gave the best advice we had to give, and we gave it with the best intentions.  He doesn't need to listen to us.
> 
> So fine, he's welcome to learn his kenpo thru the internet.  And we all wonder why kenpo and all other martial arts today suck, with only a very few individual exceptions.



You covered all my bases. 

I'll just say, that I personally answer questions for the expressed purposes of helping people and sharing a point of view. If I don't think a reply will serve that purpose, what is the point? Not trying to limit anyone, but the one thing I will do is retain mastership of my own replies.


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## Carol

Kyoshi, welcome to MartialTalk. It is great to see you so enthusiastic about Kenpo. However, if you have only been doing Kenpo for a half-year and are trying to pick apart purple belt techniques, the best advice I can give you is to *slow down.*

There are many different lineages that took flight because of Mr. Parker's efforts. Parker-Planas Kenpo, Tracy Kenpo, Sub-Level Four, Mr. Mills' AKKI, etc.

Each lineage has their differences, however they all have one very important thing in common. The techniques all build upon one another, and the insight that is gained in to kenpo is more than just where to hit the guy. The process of taking what you like and throwing out what you don't like is prevalent in some independent systems, but it is not they way the teachers under Mr. Planas go about it.  Some of the independent folks that have decided to pick and choose sharply criticise Kenpo practitioners for doing things that don't work, when the reason why they don't work is because they were not taught properly to begin with.

Anyon can ask questions here...anyone at all. Ask away. And likewise, anyone can look at a person saying "Gimme this, this, this, this, and that" and in turn answer...no.

Good luck with your training. And please...slow it down. Build your foundation on rock, not quicksand.


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## Kyoshi

@ Carol and MattJ - Thanks for the replies

@ the rest of you. I know what eventually will be the fall of my kenpo career: the way everyone talks ********, instead of staying on the topic. Im a serious martial artist and serious instructor, i know you can't learn of the internet, but seriously - what the **** is wrong asking questions and debating.

THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM - right? So i guess i should be allowed to ask Kenpo relevant questions, which i have.
I guess i should be allowed to ask on the internet, which this is.
And if you don't like my questions - don't answar? Simple, right? Hard, yes...?

Im going to Viking Camp in sweden and ofcourse i will debate this with real life instructors and not just "keyboard warriors" - but you know, sometimes it good to hear what others have to say, and how others like to move. 

Im out of this kenpo forum
Goodbye


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## MJS

Wow, way to go guys making someone feel welcome to the forum. Its bad enough that we have high ranking Kenpo people here, who a) just lurk and never post, b) post from time to time, or c) just use the forum to post events and functions that they're holding. And these are people who spent years and years with Parker, and this is the best they can do?  We should keep in mind, that not everyone has access to people who trained directly with the man.  So, one would only think, that when questions are asked, those who have spent direct time, wouldn't hesitate to chime in.  Not everyone can jump on a plane and head out to 'the source' so they use the internet, to reach out to those people, and this is the end result?  How nice.

Funny how I've started many threads, on topics that are legit and important to all martial artists, not just Kenpoists, and I get a handful of replies. Yet start a thread questioning someones rank, and you get 20+ pages. LOL! 

While I do agree that learning from tape, dvd, book, online, etc., isn't the best way to learn, asking questions is a form of learning. I highly doubt that every single Parker branch school is teaching like a robot, so whats the harm in asking how others do a particular technique? Yes, we can ask our teachers, but again, seeing that we're not all robots, where is the harm is asking how someone else does something?

As to the OP of this thread....welcome to the forum. I apologize that your time here has been ruined by certain comments, but I would not let that stop you from posting. 

As for your questions....I'll toss in my .02 when I have a bit more time. I was just passing thru quickly this morning, on my way to run a few errands, came across this, and felt the need to comment.

Mike


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## Bob Hubbard

Nothing's wrong with asking questions. That's what we're here for.  I do have to echo the "check out kenpotalk" suggestion as there are some serious in-depth walk throughs of many of the techniques there in the Tech of the Month section. But please, stick around here too.

As to Ingmar, guy knows his kenpo. Spent some time with him a few years back when he was visiting the states and we went through some of the techniques in detail. Opened my eyes a bit.  

Guys, he asked specific questions. Lets stay on that topic please.
Thanks.


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## MJS

The following is just my opinion.  I'm sure, seeing that we're not robots, we'll all vary with how we do these techniques.



Kyoshi said:


> Question1:
> Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.


 
Keep in mind, that all of these techs. are written in the ideal phase.  If everything went textbook, which it won't, then yes, how its written, will probably be how its done.  Of course, as Matt said, take into consideration the movement or effect the first strike will have on the person.  Just go with the flow and adapt to how the person moves.  If they're out of range for a strike, just keep going and move onto something else.



> Question2:
> Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.


 
Appears that way.



> Question3:
> Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy?


 
Doesnt appear to be.



> Question4:
> Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?


 
See what I said above.  IMO, this is where people get too set on doing everything textbook.  Its really very simple.  If something isn't there, if something isn't where it 'should be', then move on.  Adapt to whats happening.  



> Question5:
> Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...


 
I'm assuming you're talking about slightly stepping out of the way of the attack?  Again, go with what feels natural.  Both should work.



> Question6:
> Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?


 
What Matt said.



> Question 7:
> Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.


 
Not sure what you mean by splitting.  Anyways, like Matt, I'm not fond of this either.  



> Question 8:
> Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?


 
If he was dragging you back, IMO, trying to move forward, fighting against him, is counter productive.  IMO, it works best if he's just standing there or of course, much better if he's pushing you forward.  



> Thanks for your time and Patience.


 
You're welcome.


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## Flying Crane

Kyoshi said:


> THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM - right? So i guess i should be allowed to ask Kenpo relevant questions, which i have.
> I guess i should be allowed to ask on the internet, which this is.
> And if you don't like my questions - don't answar? Simple, right? Hard, yes...?



yes, and we can all give whatever answer we feel is appropriate, and if you don't like the answer, then ignore it.  But don't get angry when an answer is different from what you wanted to hear.  You don't own the thread.  Anyone can contribute.  A couple of us suggested you would do better to direct these questions to your instructor, and we gave our reasons for this.  How have we been disrespectful?  YOU got angry. WE did not.  We just gave advice since it was asked for...


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## Flying Crane

MJS said:


> Wow, way to go guys making someone feel welcome to the forum...
> Mike



Mike, how have we been disrespectful?  Really, reread what Doc and I posted, and I don't believe it was disrespectful or derisive.  We gave an honest opinion, and we gave reasons for what we said.  We simply pointed out that this guy really should direct these types of questions elsewhere, because he cannot rely on the answers he will get under these circumstances.  Maybe he didn't realize that, so we pointed it out.  Instead, he got offended and seems to have stormed off.  Why?  Because we dared suggest that he's going about it in the wrong way, instead of feeding him information on a platter that isn't going to be of any use to him?

How many threads do we see, lamenting the freefall of quality in the martial arts?  We all talk about the half-baked instructors, people doing stuff that they don't understand, inflated egos, all the pitfalls that the martial arts seem to be chock full of.  Well, someone trying to get his information in this manner contributes to that.  So, instead of sitting back and lamenting how bad the martial arts are getting, and instead of talking smack about how we should all bust into the local McDojo and put the beat-down on the instructors (someone actually started a thread about that once, or at least made the suggestion in a thread, I can't remember exactly which, but I know I've seen it discussed here), I took the initiative of giving some guidance that actually has some meaning.  I (and Doc) told the guy that there is a better way that he should go about getting his information, and in fact it's really really easy: talk to his own instructor.

So what is it that we've done wrong?  He seems to have gotten offended and maybe he won't come back.  I didn't intend to chase him off, and I doubt Doc did either.  But all we did is give him some better advice than what he was apparently looking for, and he didn't like it.

and we all wonder why the martial arts today suck so bad.  I don't feel like being an enabler.


----------



## Touch Of Death

MJS said:


> If he was dragging you back, IMO, trying to move forward, fighting against him, is counter productive. IMO, it works best if he's just standing there or of course, much better if he's pushing you forward.
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome.


You get all that borrowed force if he pulls you in.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> personally, I doubt it.
> 
> He's asking a lot of questions on specific technical aspects of the SD techs. It's almost like he's trying to learn the techs thru internet discussion. This is the kind of thing that needs hands-on work, and he should get the answers from his instructor. Like I said, at least at this stage of his development.


I'm OK assuming the instructor is not available.
Sean


----------



## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm OK assuming the instructor is not available.
> Sean



He actually stated that he has asked his instructor, but he felt like asking for more information online.

even if his instructor was not available, I still think this is not the way to get the information.  Asking a bunch of people online, from different lineages, who do things differently, is not likely to give him solid and useful information.  He'd be better off waiting until he can see his instructor again, or at least gets a chance to work with someone else within his lineage who would be in a position to know the answers.

I actually understand his desire to ask the questions.  He's new to the art and is enthusiastic.  He wants to discuss it.  I understand that very much.  But I also believe very strongly that you cannot get the answers that you need from just anywhere.  The context for the information needs to be appropriate, and I don't think this venue fits the bill in this case.  Obviously he has gotten the type of answers he wanted.  But I have serious doubts that the information is as useful as he thinks it is, nor that he understands it as well as he thinks he does.  But he probably does not realize that.


----------



## MattJ

ToD - 



> You get all that borrowed force if he pulls you in.


 
I agree, but now you are doing a different technique, since Obscure Sword has you stepping _forward_ on the first move. 

FC - 



> Mike, how have we been disrespectful? Really, reread what Doc and I posted, and I don't believe it was disrespectful or derisive.


 
I won't presume to answer for MJS, and I didn't find _your_ answer to be especially disrespectful, but to question if the guy even has an instructor was totally insulting. The level of detail in his questions clearly showed he has had some instruction. 



> because he cannot rely on the answers he will get under these circumstances...<snip>...Because we dared suggest that he's going about it in the wrong way, instead of feeding him information on a platter that isn't going to be of any use to him?


 
How do you know he will _rely_ on the answers he gets here? Maybe he just wants opinions - or even a discussion. And differing answers aren't always a bad thing. Maybe they might give him another perspective on something that his instructor wasn't able to clarify to his satisfaction. I found it very useful to take kenpo concepts out of the class, and get non-kenpo perspective on them.


----------



## Flying Crane

MattJ said:


> FC
> 
> I won't presume to answer for MJS, and I didn't find _your_ answer to be especially disrespectful,



OK, thanks.



> but to question if the guy even has an instructor was totally insulting. The level of detail in his questions clearly showed he has had some instruction.



I honestly did not read any insult in Doc's post.  I think he was just asking for that background and saying, hey, if you've got a teacher, he is the one you ought to be asking these questions to. 



> How do you know he will _rely_ on the answers he gets here? Maybe he just wants opinions - or even a discussion.



It's in how he worded his questions.  They read to me like someone asking for some serious guidance.

in the very first one, he talks about the tech using a horse, but he says he feels better in a NB.  He's asking if it's OK to do it that way instead.  I think he was clearly asking for help with these.  That's what his instructor is for...


----------



## seninoniwashi

... and these are the days of our lives







:ultracool


----------



## MJS

Touch Of Death said:


> You get all that borrowed force if he pulls you in.
> Sean


 
Absolutely.  However, that'll only happen if we change the technique.  For the record, I'm not against making a change, if necessary.  I was just commenting on the specific question that the OP asked. 

But I do agree with your analogy.


----------



## MJS

Flying Crane said:


> Mike, how have we been disrespectful? Really, reread what Doc and I posted, and I don't believe it was disrespectful or derisive. We gave an honest opinion, and we gave reasons for what we said. We simply pointed out that this guy really should direct these types of questions elsewhere, because he cannot rely on the answers he will get under these circumstances. Maybe he didn't realize that, so we pointed it out. Instead, he got offended and seems to have stormed off. Why? Because we dared suggest that he's going about it in the wrong way, instead of feeding him information on a platter that isn't going to be of any use to him?
> 
> How many threads do we see, lamenting the freefall of quality in the martial arts? We all talk about the half-baked instructors, people doing stuff that they don't understand, inflated egos, all the pitfalls that the martial arts seem to be chock full of. Well, someone trying to get his information in this manner contributes to that. So, instead of sitting back and lamenting how bad the martial arts are getting, and instead of talking smack about how we should all bust into the local McDojo and put the beat-down on the instructors (someone actually started a thread about that once, or at least made the suggestion in a thread, I can't remember exactly which, but I know I've seen it discussed here), I took the initiative of giving some guidance that actually has some meaning. I (and Doc) told the guy that there is a better way that he should go about getting his information, and in fact it's really really easy: talk to his own instructor.
> 
> So what is it that we've done wrong? He seems to have gotten offended and maybe he won't come back. I didn't intend to chase him off, and I doubt Doc did either. But all we did is give him some better advice than what he was apparently looking for, and he didn't like it.
> 
> and we all wonder why the martial arts today suck so bad. I don't feel like being an enabler.


 

I'll comment in the other thread.  BTW, you beat me to it.  I was going to start a similar thread on that very topic.


----------



## MattJ

Flying Crane said:


> in the very first one, he talks about the tech using a horse, but he says he feels better in a NB. He's asking if it's OK to do it that way instead. I think he was clearly asking for help with these. That's what his instructor is for...


 
Sure, and I agree that a qualified instructor is the *best* way to get that help. But that doesn't mean that he can't get other opinions, right? He did make a specific point with the "bracing angle", too. To characterize him as just saying it "feels better" is not totally accurate, IMHO. His statement shows a decent understanding of height/depth/width zones, and what stances are appropriate. 

As I mentioned in my response, I actually think he is technically right about the horse/NB in that (application phase) case, with the understanding (as MJS pointed out) that in the ideal phase, the horse *should* work fine.


----------



## Kim Dahl

Hey Boys and girls 

I am Kyoshi Kenpo instructor, Kyoshi like to ask questions because he wants to learn oure system. and that is okay with me. He feels he has to ask the questions on this website and that is okay with med also. He can always ask me and maybe he didn`t understand the answer or I Didn`t explained good enough. But I am trying my best to help him understand what we are doing and why. He has a good background in Ma. 1 st degree in Shotokan Karate and rank in Wing Chun + he trains some others art also. 

I hope he will come back to this Forum and you will treat him well 

Best Kenpo Regards
Kimpo
1 st. degree Black Belt 
Parker/Planas Lineage Denmark


----------



## yorkshirelad

MattJ said:


> "No offense"? Seriously? What's wrong with him asking questions here? Isn't that what this place is for?


Yes it is!! But there is a huge chasm between seeing the written word and feeling the effect of a technique done right. 
It seems that the author has already begun to explore the system and has found the 'kinks' in his instructors tuition.
My advise is for him to play with the techniques and ask himself if the method taught to him makes sense in relation to the concepts and principles of EPAK. Then  I suggest that he relates his findings to his instructor.
There is nothing wrong with asking technical questions, it's just that it's hard to relate the written answer to the physical form......for me anyway.


----------



## MattJ

yorkshirelad said:


> Yes it is!! But there is a huge chasm between seeing the written word and feeling the effect of a technique done right.


 
Sure, but I'm not certain what that has to do with anything. A question is a question whether it's asked verbally, written or otherwise. 



> It seems that the author has already begun to explore the system and has found the 'kinks' in his instructors tuition.


 
This seems like an assumption on your part. Perhaps he just wants other opinions?



> My advise is for him to play with the techniques and ask himself if the method taught to him makes sense in relation to the concepts and principles of EPAK.


 
It appears that is exactly what he is doing. How would he know to question the bracing angle if he hadn't felt it? 



> Then I suggest that he relates his findings to his instructor.


 
How do you know that he hasn't already? 



> There is nothing wrong with asking technical questions, it's just that it's hard to relate the written answer to the physical form......for me anyway.


 
It's not _that_ hard, really. I have learned plenty of things from text and video. My entire understanding of kenpo was increased exponentially by reading the Infinite Insights series. It's no substitute for an instructor, but it's not _impossible_, either. If people don't want to respond......then don't respond. But let's not insult the guy (not directed at you, YSL). And in any case, in the response right above yours, one of his instructors said it was perfectly fine if he asked questions here. 

Perhaps we can all learn from this, and remember for next time.


----------



## Doc

With all due respect, allow people to be insulted or not for themselves. Answer questions, or not for yourself. I answered as I felt appropriate, for myself. You on the other hand answered for someone else, and injected your own personal emotion and interpretations to someone else's questions. It might have been better served if you had waited to see how that person responded, and if you agreed, lend support rather then becoming an unsolicited mouthpiece for a non-existent problem.


----------



## MJS

Maybe we should continue to discuss the purple techs., if there're anymore questions the OP had, unless he already left for good, and discuss the pros and cons of internet assistance, in the other thread FC started.


----------



## MattJ

Doc said:


> With all due respect, allow people to be insulted or not for themselves. Answer questions, or not for yourself.


 
I always do. 



> I answered as I felt appropriate, for myself. You on the other hand answered for someone else, and injected your own personal emotion and interpretations to someone else's questions. It might have been better served if you had waited to see how that person responded, and if you agreed, lend support rather then becoming an unsolicited mouthpiece for a non-existent problem.


 
Let's review kyoshi's response:



> @ Carol and MattJ - Thanks for the replies
> 
> @ the rest of you. I know what eventually will be the fall of my kenpo career: the way everyone talks ********, instead of staying on the topic. Im a serious martial artist and serious instructor, i know you can't learn of the internet, but seriously - what the **** is wrong asking questions and debating.
> 
> THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM - right? So i guess i should be allowed to ask Kenpo relevant questions, which i have.
> I guess i should be allowed to ask on the internet, which this is.
> And if you don't like my questions - don't answar? Simple, right? Hard, yes...?
> 
> Im going to Viking Camp in sweden and ofcourse i will debate this with real life instructors and not just "keyboard warriors" - but you know, sometimes it good to hear what others have to say, and how others like to move.
> 
> Im out of this kenpo forum
> Goodbye


 
Feel free to explain, in any substansive way, how that response was different from mine. Clearly he had problem with your response. I have no problem with being an 'unsolicited mouthpiece' in the face of unrepentant ego.


----------



## Flying Crane

MattJ said:


> Let's review kyoshi's response:


 
Kyoshi asked for advice.  He actually got quite a few responses that were in line with what he wanted.

Two of us suggested he should go about this a different way.  We did not belittle him.  We did not insult him.  We just said, hey, there is a better way to get the answers you are looking for.

The fact that two of us made that suggestion was enough to throw Kyoshi into an indignant rage wherein he managed triggered the profanity filters, threw out some sarcasm, and implied that everyone here is nothing but a keyboard warrrior.  Then he left the forum, apparently for good.

He got that enraged, over the advice that two people gave him?  he asked for advice, and he got it.  But not all of it was what he wanted to hear.  And this is how angry he got.

that tells me all I need to know about him.


----------



## pete

Well, since i disagree that it is not an instructor you need to ultimately satisfy, but yourself...  and, over the years have pondered much from internet threads such as this to challenge, practice and refine... well, here are some thoughts: 

Question1: why the emphasis on bracing? bracing limits mobility, while another option may be to follow the force rather than brace against it.

Question2: i've seen families and categories defined various ways, from the nature of the attack to the physical interpretation of your motion. can be a good tool to practice different technique applications, but a bad idea to categorize for the sake of categorization. 

Question3: first get familiar with small digit manipulations (chin-na) and feel how the tendons of each finger engage to control the spine... work this with your instructor or training partner until there is understanding and a level of control in the lock being applied, then see what works & doesn't work in the technique to dissolve and counter it.

Question4: review methods of generating power, through stance changes, footwork, shifting weight, and twist/unwinding like a spring. also, this is a weapon defense, so understand where the weapon is and may be going when applying checks.

Question5: all power is generated from the feet.  move them purposefully.

Question6: if you cant reach him, he cant reach you... where is the problem?

Question 7: look for the circles, and use them to draw your opponent into your technique. 

Question 8: if someone grabs you and doesn't push or pull, its not an attack but perhaps a manly hug, as in 'i love you man'.  enjoy.

pete.


----------



## Touch Of Death

MJS said:


> Absolutely. However, that'll only happen if we change the technique. For the record, I'm not against making a change, if necessary. I was just commenting on the specific question that the OP asked.
> 
> But I do agree with your analogy.


This must be a lineage thing because; I learned the tech the way I described.  I'm not sure the throat is the best target on a static long arm attack though.
Sean


----------



## Kyoshi

Thanks for the any different answars.

What i was trying to do with my questions, what not to learn how to do them right, but to learn what you can do, how you can do it, and how YOU guys are doing it.


----------



## MattJ

Flying Crane said:


> Two of us suggested he should go about this a different way. We did not belittle him. We did not insult him.


 
*sound of buzzer*

_One of you_ actually questioned whether he had an instructor or not, which had nothing to do with his questions and was clearly asked to be insulting and condescending. Let's not pretend it was anything else.



> The fact that two of us made that suggestion was enough to throw Kyoshi into an indignant rage wherein he managed triggered the profanity filters, threw out some sarcasm, and implied that everyone here is nothing but a keyboard warrrior. Then he left the forum, apparently for good.


 
Whoa with the revisionism here. One doesn't insult someone and then get mad at them _for being upset they got insulted_. Kyoshi was insulted *first*, for nothing more than asking some legit questions. Note that I was not the only 'unsolicited mouthpiece' who noticed that one of the responses was clearly insulting. What's even more baffling is that some of the vets not only don't apologize, they _defend_ their bad behavior, which hasn't been my experience here. For the most part, everyone here is good about recognizing if they stepped over the line. 

But I suspect the higher in rank one gets, the harder it is to swallow that ego.


----------



## MJS

Touch Of Death said:


> This must be a lineage thing because; I learned the tech the way I described. I'm not sure the throat is the best target on a static long arm attack though.
> Sean


 
Personally, if I were to grab someone, in the fashion this tech. is designed for, my arm would probably not be locked out straight, but instead bent.  I'm assuming the nature of the attack would be the following:

1) to escort someone out, ie: a club, bar, etc.

2) to push them forward.

3) to pull them backward.

4) to turn them into a punch.

IMO, depending on whats happening, that will determine what we should do.  I do see the logic in giving some resistance, ie: they push you forward, you resist and push back, then suddenly change thus catching them off balance.  However, why play games?  I say, go with the motion, and adapt from there.  

I think alot of the time, as I said earlier, people get too set in the way the techs. are described, and they feel that they have to do it that way.  I disagree.  The techs. IMO, are a simple example, to teach 1 possible solution.  Its up to each student to think out of the box.  Of course, if we notice, if we were to refer to "Big Red" for a moment, we see a basic explaination of what the nature of the attack is.  Ex: Squeezing the Peach, rear bear hug, arms pinned.  But thats it.  But is that what the attack really is?  If we were simply to go with that, then a newbie will assume its simply someone coming up behind you, grabbing you and thats it.  But in more detail the description could be a bearhug, with the attacker pushing you forward, trying to take you down, etc.  So, in the case of the tech.  we're discussing now, all it says is a left flank shoulder grab.  But really, who just grabs onto someone and stands there?


----------



## MJS

Kyoshi said:


> Thanks for the any different answars.
> 
> What i was trying to do with my questions, what not to learn how to do them right, but to learn what you can do, how you can do it, and how YOU guys are doing it.


 
Were your questions answered?


----------



## Flying Crane

MattJ said:


> *sound of buzzer*
> 
> _One of you_ actually questioned whether he had an instructor or not, which had nothing to do with his questions and was clearly asked to be insulting and condescending. Let's not pretend it was anything else.


 
I really do not believe there was any intended insult in that comment.  I cannot speak for Doc, but I simply do not believe he intended insult.  I'll agree to disagree on that point.

So as to not derail the thread any further, I won't engage that topic in this thread anymore.

anyone who wishes may take it up in the other thread that I started.


----------



## Touch Of Death

MJS said:


> Personally, if I were to grab someone, in the fashion this tech. is designed for, my arm would probably not be locked out straight, but instead bent. I'm assuming the nature of the attack would be the following:
> 
> 1) to escort someone out, ie: a club, bar, etc.
> 
> 2) to push them forward.
> 
> 3) to pull them backward.
> 
> 4) to turn them into a punch.
> 
> IMO, depending on whats happening, that will determine what we should do. I do see the logic in giving some resistance, ie: they push you forward, you resist and push back, then suddenly change thus catching them off balance. However, why play games? I say, go with the motion, and adapt from there.
> 
> I think alot of the time, as I said earlier, people get too set in the way the techs. are described, and they feel that they have to do it that way. I disagree. The techs. IMO, are a simple example, to teach 1 possible solution. Its up to each student to think out of the box. Of course, if we notice, if we were to refer to "Big Red" for a moment, we see a basic explaination of what the nature of the attack is. Ex: Squeezing the Peach, rear bear hug, arms pinned. But thats it. But is that what the attack really is? If we were simply to go with that, then a newbie will assume its simply someone coming up behind you, grabbing you and thats it. But in more detail the description could be a bearhug, with the attacker pushing you forward, trying to take you down, etc. So, in the case of the tech. we're discussing now, all it says is a left flank shoulder grab. But really, who just grabs onto someone and stands there?


Why not play games... you resist, he pulls you back and you stop your momentum on his throat.
Sean


----------



## MJS

Touch Of Death said:


> Why not play games... you resist, he pulls you back and you stop your momentum on his throat.
> Sean


 
Why not just go with the initial force and get the same result?  Ex: he pulls you back, you go with it and still stop your momentum on his throat.


----------



## Touch Of Death

MJS said:


> Why not just go with the initial force and get the same result? Ex: he pulls you back, you go with it and still stop your momentum on his throat.


Thats an option.
Sean


----------



## Brian Jones

MattJ said:


> *sound of buzzer*
> 
> _One of you_ actually questioned whether he had an instructor or not, which had nothing to do with his questions and was clearly asked to be insulting and condescending. Let's not pretend it was anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa with the revisionism here. One doesn't insult someone and then get mad at them _for being upset they got insulted_. Kyoshi was insulted *first*, for nothing more than asking some legit questions. Note that I was not the only 'unsolicited mouthpiece' who noticed that one of the responses was clearly insulting. What's even more baffling is that some of the vets not only don't apologize, they _defend_ their bad behavior, which hasn't been my experience here. For the most part, everyone here is good about recognizing if they stepped over the line.
> 
> But I suspect the higher in rank one gets, the harder it is to swallow that ego.


 
  Hold on here, so you are blaming everyone but kyoshi?   First look closely at his post. He has only been studying Kenpo for  a few months. He had a ton of questions, which were not really questions. His tone was... here is what I'm taught, but I want to do it this way. So with that many questions, and because he was new a legitmate question was asked...Do you have an instructor? You should ask him/her. That's a bad statement?
   Secondly let's go back to the fact he has only studied Kenpo for a few months and is already knows how to do it better.  Whatever happend to the instructor knows best (and  don't give me a bunch of malarky about tailoring. That's fine when you are advanced. Not when you start out) Do you get to do this when you learn piano or english? No.
  Third the moment he is aksed some question he gets to go off on a rant and stomp off to his room like he's 4? But it's everyone else's fault? 
 Finally Look at the body of Flying Cran and Doc's posts over the years. When have they been less than respectful? And know I don't know either one of them, although I met Doc at a seminar years ago.  
   Sheesh


----------



## Kyoshi

MR. Jones, i've new to kenpo yes.. but i have still been training in the martial arts for 14 years - so i know how to feel if a technique feels right or wrong for you...


----------



## Chris Parker

To begin with, Flying Crane, I apologise for continuing this here, but I don't know that Kyoshi will see it in the other thread to be honest.

(This is coming from an outsider to the Kenpo systems, remember).

Kyoshi. I have read through this entire thread, as well as going through your entire posting history, and I really have to say that the issue here is you. My main question would be how old are you?

You have a list of arts, some over a short time only, with it appears Shotokan as your longest studied system (9 years), although you give Kyusho AikiJitsu as your primary art. You also state that you are the "founder" of a concept you call Mushin no shin do (The way to an empty mind? Hmm, your translation is a bit off there. It would be "Way of the mind of no mind", which is just confusing, unless you mean shin to mean new, in which case it is "Way of new of no mind", which is possibly worse), something about a new (?) way to apply a lock? You constantly tell us that you have been training in martial arts for over 14 years, but really what does that mean? 14 systems for a bit under a year each? Or one system for 14 years, and a recent change? Unfortunately I feel it is more the former...

You have a rather demanding way of posting, including demanding threads get back on topic (not a bad idea, but the way you asked was less-than-polite), complaining about people "spamming" your thread, then saying "No one here with anything regarding this topic?" Now, this could be part of the language barrier, but that along with your tantrum here are not going to have people wanting to help you much.

If you come along here, you are of course free to ask anything you want. But remember you are asking people who often have more experience than you do, especially considering who has been answering for you here, so my advice is simple. If you want to ask them the questions, be prepared to hear the answers. And they may not be what you want them to be. If some very senior members of an art I was studying answered my questions of "How do I?" with "Ask your instructor", I would take that as the voice of experience talking, and I recommend you listen to it. For the record, that is advice I seem to give out fairly regularly myself, so I know where they are coming from.

When it comes to your background, 14 years is frankly both not that impressive to quite a few people here, and has little to nothing to do with your Kenpo history, as you have only a few months in this particular art. Part of learning a new art is realising that you will need to let go of your previous training when learning Kenpo, as it is irrelevant. To demonstrate, I have over 22 years of training behind me, including my early years in karate and tae kwon do, and I have nearly no idea what on earth the technical posts here are about. I would have to learn completely from scratch in order to study Kenpo, and you will need to do that too.

So, in essence, recognise that you have been given the best advice some very senior practitioners can give, it's now up to you to be able to take that for what it is. And realise that your 14 years may not actually amount to anything in this field.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Brian Jones said:


> Hold on here, so you are blaming everyone but kyoshi? First look closely at his post. He has only been studying Kenpo for a few months. He had a ton of questions, which were not really questions. His tone was... here is what I'm taught, but I want to do it this way. So with that many questions, and because he was new a legitmate question was asked...Do you have an instructor? You should ask him/her. That's a bad statement?
> Secondly let's go back to the fact he has only studied Kenpo for a few months and is already knows how to do it better. Whatever happend to the instructor knows best (and don't give me a bunch of malarky about tailoring. That's fine when you are advanced. Not when you start out) Do you get to do this when you learn piano or english? No.
> Third the moment he is aksed some question he gets to go off on a rant and stomp off to his room like he's 4? But it's everyone else's fault?
> Finally Look at the body of Flying Cran and Doc's posts over the years. When have they been less than respectful? And know I don't know either one of them, although I met Doc at a seminar years ago.
> Sheesh


 On the other hand, telling people to go ask their instructor every time they ask a question sort of defeats the whole purpose of sharing ideas on Martial Talk. And I have seen some less than respectfull posts at one time or another from at least one of the posters in question.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death

Chris Parker said:


> ...  And realise that your 14 years may not actually amount to anything in this field.


 That's only if the style you trained in doesn't deal with any of the basic principles of motion such as posture, balance, relaxation, speed, etc.
Sean


----------



## MattJ

Brian Jones said:


> Hold on here, so you are blaming everyone but kyoshi?


 
What are you talking about? I have done no such thing. 



> First look closely at his post. He has only been studying Kenpo for a few months. He had a ton of questions, which were not really questions. His tone was... here is what I'm taught, but I want to do it this way. So with that many questions, and because he was new a legitmate question was asked...Do you have an instructor? You should ask him/her. That's a bad statement?


 
What do you mean they were not really questions? Would you care to define "question" so the rest of us can understand YOUR definition? I found his questions to be legit and detailed in a way that asking if he had an instructor was condescending and insulting - and I wasn't the only one.



> Secondly let's go back to the fact he has only studied Kenpo for a few months and is already knows how to do it better.


 
He never said anthing about _better_. He mentioned his preference (and did not specify which phase he was referring to, although I assumed he meant the application phase), and was seeking opinion. Perfectly acceptable use of an internet MA forum. 



> Whatever happend to the instructor knows best (and don't give me a bunch of malarky about tailoring. That's fine when you are advanced. Not when you start out) Do you get to do this when you learn piano or english? No.


 
Whatever happened to freedom to ask questions? And if you think tailoring is malarky - at any point -  then you and I have very different ideas about what kenpo is, my friend.  

Maybe you should read up about what Ed Parker had to say about tailoring and kenpo.



> Third the moment he is aksed some question he gets to go off on a rant and stomp off to his room like he's 4? But it's everyone else's fault?
> Finally Look at the body of Flying Cran and Doc's posts over the years. When have they been less than respectful? And know I don't know either one of them, although I met Doc at a seminar years ago.
> Sheesh


 
I am only discussing the comments made in this thread. I suggest if you wish to respond to this, carry it over to the "responsibility" thread in the General Talk forum, so as not to keep dragging this one off-topic.


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## Touch Of Death

MJS said:


> Why not just go with the initial force and get the same result? Ex: he pulls you back, you go with it and still stop your momentum on his throat.


 My understanding of this tech is that you are walking along and someone runs up behind and grabs your shoulder to pull you in. The step you take forward is a step you were going to take anyway. Secondly, if you do step forward and it break the opponents posture, you win that game, and you are no longer doing Obscure Sword, but another idea.
Sean


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## MJS

Touch Of Death said:


> My understanding of this tech is that you are walking along and someone runs up behind and grabs your shoulder to pull you in. The step you take forward is a step you were going to take anyway. Secondly, if you do step forward and it break the opponents posture, you win that game, and you are no longer doing Obscure Sword, but another idea.
> Sean


 

Well, at least the 2 of us are still talking about Kenpo techniques. 

Like I said, I'm not against giving a little resistance, to trick the other guy, and then using that momentum, etc.  I'd say, like anything, do whats best for the situation.  

Anyways, back to your post...  Yes, that does make sense.


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## Kyoshi

*Chris Parker:* _"You have a list of arts, some over a short time only, with it appears Shotokan as your longest studied system (9 years), although you give Kyusho AikiJitsu as your primary art. You also state that you are the "founder" of a concept you call Mushin no shin do (The way to an empty mind? Hmm, your translation is a bit off there. It would be "Way of the mind of no mind", which is just confusing, unless you mean shin to mean new, in which case it is "Way of new of no mind", which is possibly worse), something about a new (?) way to apply a lock? You constantly tell us that you have been training in martial arts for over 14 years, but really what does that mean? 14 systems for a bit under a year each? Or one system for 14 years, and a recent change? Unfortunately I feel it is more the former..."_

Chris, as a practitioneer of ninjutsu, you should be aware of the "Shu-Ha-Ri"-concept? 
You questions my concept of Mushin No Shin Do, and i will be happy to answar your questions. Heres a short description fo the concept: I have put together this training concept of "Mushin No Shin Do",Based upon my experience with shotokan, wing tsun and kyusho. Its important to notice that its not a selfsustaining martialart, but rather a concept, which is integrateable in all forms of martial art. Mushin No Shin is the old expression of emptyness or nothingness in the mind(or as you nicely describes(which i was aware of, but it makes no sense to those who don't know "mushin") mind of no mind). "Do" is the way to achieving it. I try with my concept through a diversity of excersises and the concept itself to get the emptiness to take control - so that you will react without an active thought - upon any given situation.


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## Chris Parker

Hi Kyoshi,

Thanks for the answer. 

Yes, I am very aware of the Shu Ha Ri concept, however you are not mentioning any aspect of it here. So you know, though, what you are describing is simply standard for any martial art, with this terminology (Mushin) being standard for Japanese arts. I don't see anything new at all, it is found in every art I have ever encountered. Unless you have a new way of training it, there is nothing but a simple renaming of existing ideas.

However, as this is nothing to do with Kenpo or the techniques this thread is about, I might suggest, if you truly feel that there is something different, new, or unique about your concept, you may want to start a new thread in the general section where you can explain what exactly is new about this. I will certainly join in, and I am assuming that other JMA guys will as well, at least.


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## Jade Tigress

*ATTENTION ALL USERS*

*Please return to the original topic of the purple belt techniques. If you would like to discuss whether it's good or not to ask these questions on a forum there is a thread here for it. *

*Thank you.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Asst. Admin. 
*


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