# Would you help?



## Supra Vijai (Apr 21, 2012)

I'd like to preface this post by saying this may not be the best area for this but it's open to all to answer. 

Recently, within our school we've had a few emails come out about street predators and assaults that have occurred which in turn have sparked off several discussions about real world violence. 

One of the recent emails covered an article in the Sydney Morning Herald about a home invasion involving a professional middle aged couple who were unprepared for this type of event (as many are!). In a nutshell, two men broke into a house in the inner suburbs and attacked the boyfriend, threatened the lady mentioned in the article and destroyed furniture and windows etc. The lady ran out of the house, half naked, to try get help from her neighbors but no one would even answer her cries for help (they turned their lights off) - except for some ex cons fresh out of prison in a halfway house up the street who heard her, ran in and chased away the assailants. 

This email in particular got me thinking and to be honest, regardless of any training or ego, if I saw a fight break out or heard some disturbance, I don't know if I would get involved. I'd certainly call the police and/or alert someone nearby but stepping in physically? That's a whole other question and one I don't know the answer to. I don't know if that makes me a weaker person or even a "bad" person but given that I live in a quiet, sleepy little suburb with very little violent crime, it's certainly not something I've ever given much thought to, until now...

I'd love to hear some thoughts from those more experienced either with training or simply the ways of the world. When does being a good samaritan turn into being a "hero" (read: idiot)? What would go through your mind in this situation: would you worry about family, your own safety or only about helping the person in need? Finally, what would you have done if you were the neighbours?


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## Cyriacus (Apr 21, 2012)

It depends. Honestly, Id be cautious to risk My Life over it. Id call the Police, but actually get involved?
No thanks. Not gonna risk My Life unless They start causing general mayhem. And thatd mostly be to nip them in the bud.

Im putting that a bit bluntly, but Im not gonna lie here.
Id be more likely to help someone if they were being accosted in the street, whilst I was in the same street.


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## Haakon (Apr 21, 2012)

I don't know if I'd get involved if I saw a fight or disturbance, it would depend on so many variables I couldn't say yes/no. There is no way I could refuse to help a woman screaming for help running down the street. The people who hid behind their doors and turned off the lights should be ashamed, I couldn't live with myself.

How ironic that it was the ex-cons who ran to help while the supposedly good people locked her out and hid.


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 21, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> And thatd mostly be to nip them in the bud.



I agree with your sentiments but just a quick question about this point: what constitutes "nip them in the bud"? As in, practically speaking I don't quite understand how one would do that without becoming involved per se...



> Im putting that a bit bluntly, but Im not gonna lie here.
> Id be more likely to help someone if they were being accosted in the street, whilst I was in the same street.



Again, agreed. I just don't know what level of help I'd offer in that same situation and find that's a moral/philosophical dilemna for me... As for putting it bluntly, it was a rather confronting question I think so no other way to answer it 



Haakon said:


> I don't know if I'd get involved if I saw a fight or disturbance, it would depend on so many variables I couldn't say yes/no. There is no way I could refuse to help a woman screaming for help running down the street. The people who hid behind their doors and turned off the lights should be ashamed, I couldn't live with myself.
> 
> How ironic that it was the ex-cons who ran to help while the supposedly good people locked her out and hid.



So very true! Without going into too many details, this email was regarding a discussion about understanding the typical street predator mindset and intimidation tactics and how the same people middle class society muttered under their breaths about and held in low esteem were really the only ones that understood these things and came forward; which is what got me thinking about what I would do given my own relative naivety and inexperience with such situations


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## Razor (Apr 21, 2012)

Personally I think it depends very much upon the situation. I would be very cautious about going into an enclosed space (if entering at all), particularly without knowing any details of what was happening or who the people were. Other than that, I think on the street I would at least say something if somebody was being attacked in some way. I have heard horror stories of people walking past while women have been being raped in side streets and not doing anything. Frankly I don't know how true these stories are, but I can't imagine people having that level of indifference.

Recently I was walking back from a party in the East End of London with two friends and we encountered two people who seemed to have run out into the middle of the street and one had his hand on the other's neck and was behaving aggressively towards him. We thought we should probably do something, so my friend just asked casually "Are you guys alright?" or something like that. We went up to them and talked to them for a while and they seemed okay, just a bit drunk and were messing around (they seemed to be friends). In that situation, I was quite happy to intervene in what looked like it was about to turn in to an altercation; there were 3 of us and 2 of them though. I doubt my reaction would have been the same if it was just me, especially as they were not actually fighting as such.


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## Burnse (Apr 21, 2012)

This is going to paint me as an official Idiot but I have responded to odd noises in the night, car alarms ect. by heading towards the noise. Middle of the night I heard what I thought was a woman's scream so I took an umbrella and trawled the block to see if I could locate it. (Never did find the source.) It's the same mentality I have when I see a lone small child and check for their adult. I don't think about it, I just do it. Problem is I have never gotten to the part where the danger has been genuine. My only experience with a hostile situation where I could have intervened I did exactly what the people in the houses did. I hid, before it even started. Unable to leave without my group I eventually emerged fighting the flight instinct and ended up hovering at the edge of the action. I succumbed to the bystander effect like so many others, and these weren't some randoms strangers, these were my friends who were being assaulted.
So sure, I get the Hero complex once in a while but when it looks like the danger is going to be focused all on me, instinct takes over and self-preservation kicks in. Would I go to help? Yes. What I'd do when I got there is another question entirely. 
I can't blame those people for locking themselves in and turning off the lights. It's self-preservation. Hypothetically speaking, I'd probably have done the same thing. But I'd have let the woman inside, then locked the door. No point in two people being assaulted.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 21, 2012)

How close are we talking when the term "neighbours" is used here?  I for one would certainly go out and help my neighbours if anything happened and I expect the same would be true of them too.  Sometimes all it takes for an altercation to defuse, rather than explode, is for a bit of solidarity between neighbours.  

Obviously we're talking about something far more serious in the OP's incident but there is no way that I would lock out one of my neighbours in trouble.


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## simplewc101 (Apr 21, 2012)

Always help those weaker than yourself who are in need of help.

"when does being a good Samaritan turn into being an idiot?" Very good question. You turn from being a good Samaritan into an idiot when you don't have the proper knowledge and ability to effectively do good in the situation.
In this case it sounds like you need a phone call to the cops, proper training with a gun, and the ability to be authoritative to get the attackers to cease and desist. Or a lot of bravery if you are going to forgo the firearm.


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## Haakon (Apr 21, 2012)

Burnse said:


> This is going to paint me as an official Idiot but I have responded to odd noises in the night, car alarms ect. by heading towards the noise. Middle of the night I heard what I thought was a woman's scream so I took an umbrella and trawled the block to see if I could locate it. (Never did find the source.) It's the same mentality I have when I see a lone small child and check for their adult. I don't think about it, I just do it. Problem is I have never gotten to the part where the danger has been genuine. My only experience with a hostile situation where I could have intervened I did exactly what the people in the houses did. I hid, before it even started. Unable to leave without my group I eventually emerged fighting the flight instinct and ended up hovering at the edge of the action. I succumbed to the bystander effect like so many others, and these weren't some randoms strangers, these were my friends who were being assaulted.
> So sure, I get the Hero complex once in a while but when it looks like the danger is going to be focused all on me, instinct takes over and self-preservation kicks in. Would I go to help? Yes. What I'd do when I got there is another question entirely.
> I can't blame those people for locking themselves in and turning off the lights. It's self-preservation. Hypothetically speaking, I'd probably have done the same thing. But I'd have let the woman inside, then locked the door. No point in two people being assaulted.



I wouldn't say you're an idiot. If anything I'd bet many people who have 'first responder' jobs would have a similar attitude.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 21, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> I agree with your sentiments but just a quick question about this point: what constitutes "nip them in the bud"? As in, practically speaking I don't quite understand how one would do that without becoming involved per se...



Im saying that if They started causing general mayhem, like, randomly beating up cars and smashing the windows of houses, Id intervene before They got to mine. Even if it was to just keep them busy in a shouting contest whilst the Police found their way over.


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## Kinghercules (Apr 22, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> I'd like to preface this post by saying this may not be the best area for this but it's open to all to answer.
> 
> Recently, within our school we've had a few emails come out about street predators and assaults that have occurred which in turn have sparked off several discussions about real world violence.
> 
> ...



What do you train in?
Kendo?

Why do you train?

Im just wonderin because if you have the ability to step in and stop somethin from goin wrong why not?



Supra Vijai said:


> I don't know if that makes me a weaker person......


I would say so.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 22, 2012)

The one time I did intervene, I was with a group and it was in defense of a bartender. She was trying to get someone to leave, we helped persuade him. Just talking. A 22 year old girl should not have to deal with a 40-something year old big guy threatening physical harm because she won't give him her cell phone number by herself.

We all knew it wouldn't get close to physical and there was no real danger, but I don't think there's very many people who wouldn't try and help out in that situation.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2012)

I've intervened a number of times over the years in situations where someone was in danger of getting hurt.  Fortunately it never got to the point where I had to fight.  Generally I was able to physically block off the aggressor(s) from the intended victim and either verbally de-escalate things or just distract them long enough for the other party to get to safety.

In retrospect, I think I did some things well in handling the situations but I probably benefited from luck as much as from skill or good judgment.


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## ballen0351 (Apr 22, 2012)

Id call 911............Oh wait


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 23, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> What do you train in?
> Kendo?



Why such disdain for Kendo? I'm not a Kendoka myself and while I won't argue that it is a combat art, it definitely has many merits. I'd say any Kendoka who trains seriously would have brilliant speed and reflexes and while they may not be cutting correctly with a sword, if they were to pick up a stick on the street for instance and perform those strikes with power, they would still cause serious injury.



> Why do you train?
> 
> Im just wonderin because if you have the ability to step in and stop somethin from goin wrong why not?



Why do I train what exactly? Why do I train traditional martial arts? For the discipline that comes from committing to/sticking with training, the interest in culture and history, the desire to expand myself as a person - and let's face it, I'm not running off to join in any battles in Ancient Japan (my DeLorean is in the shop for a service); it's exercise and a great social activity where I've made some great friends with similar interests. If I tried to use my art as it is in a street fight, I would be killed or end up as one of Youtube's many horror stories and be laughed at for years to come

Why do I train the modern self defence component of our classes? Simple. So I can get home safe. Not so I can go looking for fights, not so I can get myself hurt, killed or arrested and not so that one day I can finally wear my batman costume for realsies rather than just to comic book conventions. 

I have no issues stepping in to help someone if it is in my power but the cost is something I would need to assess. Are my bills paid or am I leaving debts behind? How many people depend on my wellbeing and safety for their own needs based on my relationship with them? What will happen to my dogs? That said I have intervened before when close friends were threatened. Would I do it for a total stranger who wasn't at my door asking for help when the odds are stacked against me? No idea. Won't know till it happens and I hope I don't have to find out.



> I would say so.



Cool, that's something I'll have to work on myself then


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## Jenna (Apr 23, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> I'd like to preface this post by saying this may not be the best area for this but it's open to all to answer.
> 
> Recently, within our school we've had a few emails come out about street predators and assaults that have occurred which in turn have sparked off several discussions about real world violence.
> 
> ...


Fyi, this was not a "Good Samaritan" story as in that parable the Levite was left beaten in the road when the Samaritan passed.  There were no muggers.  They had gone. 

For what it is worth, I applaud the actions of these people who intervened.  I do not know if there is any logic in it though?

The question you ask yourself is, do I endanger myself for someone that is -in its most pared terms- ultimately nothing to me?

Assessing that situation, if you are physically capable of tackling a team of potentially armed burglars close quarters, if you can further can generate sufficient reserve or composure to stave off the surge of epinephrine and utilise what you know, if you can then extract sufficient logical motivation to enter such a situation and potentially BECOME the aggressor yourself -from a legal point of view-, and being certain you are not concerned that those burglars will -whether apprehended or not- return to take some revenge upon you or your kin, and moreover knowing tha you have nobody on earth who would really miss you if you were unsuccessful in your chivalry, then yes it is definitely a good idea to intervene.

If you do not intervene those people may be hurt.  You will not, nor will those who may care about you or to whom you must care for.


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## MJS (Apr 23, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> I'd like to preface this post by saying this may not be the best area for this but it's open to all to answer.
> 
> Recently, within our school we've had a few emails come out about street predators and assaults that have occurred which in turn have sparked off several discussions about real world violence.
> 
> ...



Getting physically involved....probably not.  Reason being, is that if I were to physically involve myself, one or both of the parties involved, could suddenly decide to turn on me.  Instead, I'd rather call the police and give as much info as possible.  And yes FWIW, there've been many times when I've called.  

If someone was banging on my door, would I let them in?  Most likely.  Now, this could turn ugly, if the person thats chasing after them, now starts kicking in my door.  I certainly can't see me shutting off the lights.


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## billc (Apr 23, 2012)

As to wether to intervene or not, George Zimmerman could not be reached for comment.  His attorney's will get back to you.


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## jks9199 (Apr 23, 2012)

Rather than derail this thread any further:  Police Response


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

K-man said:


> I'm really not sure you would like that. :eye-popping:





True enough, I've had a rough weekend, my aughter was rushed into hospital Saturday with a life threatening condition none of us knew about, started simply as a pain and swelling in the right side of her face, it got worse until she was sobbing with pain and the swelling was spreading over her face, even her eyelid was closing. To start with the docs didn't know what it was, infection in sinus, cellulitus etc she couldn't keep any meds down either then they spotted a small dental abcess on the scans (she hadn't had toothache), she had emergency op to remove tooth and was on a drip with antibiotics and pain killers. It's horrible watching your children suffer, absolutely gut wrenching... then this guy posts on here about his 'heroics' his martial arts antics and how wise, humble he is etc and tbh I want to throw up.
she's out of hosptial today, the eye specialists has looked at her eyes and said they are ok, all the rest checks out  ok now too but it seems a man died of this a couple of months ago, he thought he had earache no dental pain either. My daughter had a little chip on the tooth, a little sensitivity but no pain and the other docs had checked her teeth no pain etc. It's been a scary time. Really scary, not made up scary, crawl in a corner and cry scary so false and made up heroics aren't going to wash with me today I'm afraid. I'm not in the mood for 'how great am I'


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> True enough, I've had a rough weekend, my aughter was rushed into hospital Saturday with a life threatening condition none of us knew about, started simply as a pain and swelling in the right side of her face, it got worse until she was sobbing with pain and the swelling was spreading over her face, even her eyelid was closing. To start with the docs didn't know what it was, infection in sinus, cellulitus etc she couldn't keep any meds down either then they spotted a small dental abcess on the scans (she hadn't had toothache), she had emergency op to remove tooth and was on a drip with antibiotics and pain killers. It's horrible watching your children suffer, absolutely gut wrenching... then this guy posts on here about his 'heroics' his martial arts antics and how wise, humble he is etc and tbh I want to throw up.
> she's out of hosptial today, the eye specialists has looked at her eyes and said they are ok, all the rest checks out ok now too but it seems a man died of this a couple of months ago, he thought he had earache no dental pain either. My daughter had a little chip on the tooth, a little sensitivity but no pain and the other docs had checked her teeth no pain etc. It's been a scary time. Really scary, not made up scary, crawl in a corner and cry scary so false and made up heroics aren't going to wash with me today I'm afraid. I'm not in the mood for 'how great am I'



Dental abcesses can be far more serious than people tend to think. It's relatively easy for infections in the teeth or sinuses to form brain abcesses. 

I tend to agree with your response to Alex's posts.


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## Buka (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> True enough, I've had a rough weekend, my aughter was rushed into hospital Saturday with a life threatening condition none of us knew about, started simply as a pain and swelling in the right side of her face, it got worse until she was sobbing with pain and the swelling was spreading over her face, even her eyelid was closing. To start with the docs didn't know what it was, infection in sinus, cellulitus etc she couldn't keep any meds down either then they spotted a small dental abcess on the scans (she hadn't had toothache), she had emergency op to remove tooth and was on a drip with antibiotics and pain killers. It's horrible watching your children suffer, absolutely gut wrenching... then this guy posts on here about his 'heroics' his martial arts antics and how wise, humble he is etc and tbh I want to throw up.
> she's out of hosptial today, the eye specialists has looked at her eyes and said they are ok, all the rest checks out  ok now too but it seems a man died of this a couple of months ago, he thought he had earache no dental pain either. My daughter had a little chip on the tooth, a little sensitivity but no pain and the other docs had checked her teeth no pain etc. It's been a scary time. Really scary, not made up scary, crawl in a corner and cry scary so false and made up heroics aren't going to wash with me today I'm afraid. I'm not in the mood for 'how great am I'



I'm glad she's okay, Tez.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

Buka said:


> I'm glad she's okay, Tez.



Cheers, she's 26 but still my baby! 
Alex is younger and when he talks about putting himself in all this danger and is lucky he wasn't shot etc the mother in me cringes so much. Please please, think of your parents if nothing else, we never stop caring about our kids, they are always our babies even when our kids are old!


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Rather than derail this thread any further: Police Response




Very much worth reading, thank you.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez3 - I'm so glad your daughter is OK now.  That must have been very scary indeed.  

I hope Zenjael reads you post on your opinion of him.  I agree, I think he is not a bad person.  I just he is dealing with his image of himself and how others perceive him, and that he needs to rethink how he is perceived.  Then he can decide if he thinks he might want to change anything.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Tez3 - I'm so glad your daughter is OK now. That must have been very scary indeed.
> 
> I hope Zenjael reads you post on your opinion of him. I agree, I think he is not a bad person. I just he is dealing with his image of himself and how others perceive him, and that he needs to rethink how he is perceived. Then he can decide if he thinks he might want to change anything.




Thank you, I was fine while it was all going on but have the shakes now!

We have lads like Zenjael coming into our MMA club, they think that to fit in they have to be macho and 'streetwise' with 'street' fights under their belts,  actually we love having beginners in. We love what we do and love sharing it, someone who comes in knowing nothing about martial arts or MMA but is willing to learn is a joy to teach. If they have experience of martial arts it's great sharing it, we don't sit around talking about the street stuff we've been in, most of us haven't and John our conditioning coach doesn't leave anyone any breath to talk anyway! Now John is a hard man! He's a Sgt.Maj in the Scots Guards with tours of Ireland, Iraq and Afghan under his belt as well as being in a hard regiment! Have to have a thread drift here lol, this is John last week at Craig, his second son's Passing Out parade, Craig also trains with us and has a good MMA record. I can't imagine what the Basic Training Staff thought when he turned up in uniform to watch his son! Zenjael, if as you say you are going to be joining up, you really need to watch what you say, John has equally mean counterparts in the American forces!


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## shesulsa (Apr 24, 2012)

Yikes, Tez! Scary indeed!  *Phew* glad she's doing better! That worry over their lives just never ends, does it? ((hugs))


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, I was fine while it was all going on but have the shakes now!
> 
> We have lads like Zenjael coming into our MMA club, they think that to fit in they have to be macho and 'streetwise' with 'street' fights under their belts, actually we love having beginners in. We love what we do and love sharing it, someone who comes in knowing nothing about martial arts or MMA but is willing to learn is a joy to teach. If they have experience of martial arts it's great sharing it, we don't sit around talking about the street stuff we've been in, most of us haven't and John our conditioning coach doesn't leave anyone any breath to talk anyway! Now John is a hard man! He's a Sgt.Maj in the Scots Guards with tours of Ireland, Iraq and Afghan under his belt as well as being in a hard regiment! Have to have a thread drift here lol, this is John last week at Craig, his second son's Passing Out parade, Craig also trains with us and has a good MMA record. I can't imagine what the Basic Training Staff thought when he turned up in uniform to watch his son! Zenjael, if as you say you are going to be joining up, you really need to watch what you say, John has equally mean counterparts in the American forces!



Awwwh, listen how you talk about him. He looks like such a nice, sweet, innocent and easy going guy, that Sgt.Maj or yours.  How can you imply otherwise?   :uhyeah:  :uhyeah:   :uhyeah:

He does look fit as well.  No doubt him showing, especially if unanounced, must have put a lump in some of the training staff's throats.  :uhyeah:

Good on his son.


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## WC_lun (Apr 24, 2012)

Wow Tez, I am so glad your daughter is all right.  It certainly does put things into perspective...or should.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Wow Tez, I am so glad your daughter is all right. It certainly does put things into perspective...or should.



It scared me stupid I can tell you and I imagine the same feelings going through a certain young man who posts here's mother if half of what he says is true! Young, drunk, facing down criminals, taking drugs, fighting mates when drunk, lieing to the police, out in places where he gets mugged etc etc c'mon either these are all stories or this young man needs to seriously get a grip of himself.


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## shesulsa (Apr 24, 2012)

I never answered the OP's question.

It *really* depends. About 99% of the time, I call 911 if necessary.  Sometimes it really does only take people who don't want to be seen or noticed having an uninterrupted, dedicated pair of eyes on them to either thwart an attempt or dissolve a conflict.  I did, while driving, encounter two neighbor women fighting. As soon as they noticed I stopped and was watching, phone in hand, they ceased. I think it was a wake-up moment for them, I don't think I'm particularly intimidating (my daughter's ex-boyfriends may argue with that).

If a neighbor I recognized came to my door in the state described in the OP, I'd likely let them in, but I'd never assume my actions would be a substitute for calling 911.  

A good friend, child (if an appropriate situation), relative ... sure, I'd help them out.


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## billc (Apr 24, 2012)

Hmmm...sometimes it is the wrong thing to do when you just try to help out a little...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/24/Mobile-AL-Justice-For-Trayvon



> Owens &#8220;fussed at some kids&#8221; playing basketball on Saturday night &#8211; they were playing in the road. The children reportedly left and &#8220;a group of adults returned, armed with everything but the kitchen sink.&#8221; They beat Owens with objects including pipes, paint cans, brass buckles, and chairs. Cpl. Chris Levy of the Mobile Police Department said there were &#8220;a ton of people there, but for some reason, not a lot of details were given to investigators that night. Somebody knows what happened.&#8221;





> Owens is in critical condition; according to Parker, he has &#8220;bleeding on his brain.&#8221;


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## WC_lun (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't get the link between your post Billi, and trying to help.


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## billc (Apr 25, 2012)

Well...the kids were playing in the street and he "fussed," at them to get out of the street, and the people in the neighborhood didn't say thanks for looking out for the kids by getting them out of the street, they attacked and brutally beat him.  This goes to "would you help," someone and what could happen if you step up.  You could also ask George Zimmerman about looking out for his neighbor hood and what happened to him.


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 25, 2012)

billcihak said:


> You could also ask George Zimmerman about looking out for his neighbor hood and what happened to him.



Hate to sound like a total n00b here but who is George Zimmerman? His name has come up a few times in a couple of threads....


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 25, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Hate to sound like a total n00b here but who is George Zimmerman? His name has come up a few times in a couple of threads....



Shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old.


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 25, 2012)

fun....


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 25, 2012)

well I'm way out of the loop with current events... my new job doesn't allow for much conventional news watching time, quick google search fixed that though!


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 25, 2012)

Not so black and white, try googling his name for the story.


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## pgsmith (Apr 25, 2012)

> Always help those weaker than yourself who are in need of help.


  This is a sentiment more in line with comic book superheroes rather than a decent recommendation for real life. Real life is *never* black and white. Here's a scenario for you to illustrate ... you observe a skinny white kid (name begins with Z  ) going over to a gang of large blacks. He stands and harrasses them and picks a fight. They start to beat him up. Now you've got someone weaker than you that is in need of help. Sorry, but I'm not going to put myself into harms way to help him with a situation he purposely put himself into. Every situation has to be faced on its own merits, and all of us have to consider each situation and its unique parameters. 

  As for the OPs situation, I think it's deplorable, but it is a symptom of today's society. People are told all the time to keep themselves safe, and let the professionals handle things. This has led to a large portion of our society being afraid of their own shadows, and reluctant to think for themselves. A truly cynical outlook I know, but it today seems to be a cynical day for me. 

  P.S. Glad your daughter is going to be OK Tez!


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## malteaser14 (Apr 25, 2012)

I live in an area where the crime rate is above average and I am still talked about bythe regulars and old staff members of a pub I used to work in 4yrs ago because of the fights, riots, bottlings, and even verbal aggressive 'people' I used to 'deal' with! But outside of that pub is a different matter! 

I have seen women claim domestic violence as they run crying from their attacker, and when someone interjects the women starts attacking the Samaritan!! (Seen all too frequently!) 

There was domestic abuse happening to my pregnant neighbour and I called the police, who arrived 5mins later, at the point I was about to knock on her door and play innocent and invite her around for a cuppa! Then if I needed to get involved I would have coz babies life was at risk.

If a violent altercation happened, if it was family of friend or abuse of a minor, I'd get involved, but anyone else I'd call the police... Ifs what they're trained to do!


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## Cyriacus (Apr 26, 2012)

My 2 cents: If someone pulls a knife or gun on Me, first thing I want to know is why.
If They want My Wallet, They can have it. Ill take My Lucky Coin, hand it over, then when He leaves, freeze My Credit Card, call the Police, and be glad that I never, ever carry cash. Then Ill see about getting a new Drivers Licence.

If They want to issue Threats, and have produced the Weapon specifically to do so, why?
Were We argueing? If so, "Jesus christ man, sorry. Do you want me to go? Look, ill buy you a drink first, lets just calm down, I was just messing around.". Did He randomly accost Me in a public place at night? Then I might be thinking about taking more volatile action, when some complete stranger randomly walks over and produces a weapon, and doesnt want something from Me.

Is He trying to steal My car? Sure, take it. Its insured against Theft. I aint gonna risk My Life for it.

What other scenarios can We work off? Because thats all just off the top of My head.


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## Sanke (Apr 28, 2012)

To answer the OP, I'd like to think I'd help, at least letting the woman inside and calling the police, as many here have said already. But I know for a fact that's not always how it goes with me.

About 8 months back now I was working as the cash register monkey I am, and these two suspicious looking types, (tatoos on just about any part of the body you can think of, big empty bags) walked in. Even if I was stereotyping, at that point I was certainly going to keep my eyes on them (That and my manager told me to :uhyeah:).
Nothing really happened at first, one of them left the store and the other was at the checkout next to mine, when another customer behind him started shouting to us "Hey! His mate just stole a bunch of stuff!", pointing to one of the two. At this point, he (the tattooed guy) started getting quite aggressive, shouting, swearing, making fists, etc, all the signs of a fight that I'd been taught about, and seen. But the customer kept accusing him (or rather his friend) of theft. 
So the tattooed man walked right up to the customer and headbutted him.
All the while I was watching this, and I did nothing. I knew what was about to happen, that the guy was in danger and making it worse, but I still did nothing. When I was told to call the police, I froze up and my manager had to do it.
Fortunately the customer was (relatively) fine, and nothing further came of it. The man's friend came in and talked him down, it turns out the customer was talking about a third guy he'd seen, and assumed they were friends, but I still found the fact that I just stood there watching quite troubling. 
I wasn't sure what I was meant to do, if I should have yelled at the man to back off, as I was quite safe behind the counter, or if that would have made it worse, if I did the right thing, keeping myself out of the line of fire, etc. I still don't really know.

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to the moment, I think. Maybe next time I will step in, maybe I'll do exactly what I did. But I will say that I hope next time, I'll at least just call the police.

On a slightly different tangent...



Zenjael said:


> I think it a foolish assumption from anyone to assume they already know what the person has to offer. I think it also a foolish assumption for the teacher not to see what they can learn from their student, also. Both have something to offer, and both need each other for their respective roles to exist.



I wanted to also pick up on this part, because I don't think you really understand what this means, Alex.
Yes, a teacher can learn much from his student, about applications of technique and strategy, about how different people work physically and mentally, about teaching and much more. 
This does not mean the student turning around and explaining things to or correcting the teacher. The student should never assume they know more than the teacher, or that they can teach them. One does not explain the meanings of Shakespeare to an English teacher, regardless of how much you or they feel you understand the play. There's a reason why they are the teacher.

Just to put this in perspective, this isn't coming from a teacher, or a senior. This comes from a fellow student. I'm your age, mate, and if I behaved the way you have been here, I would be out of my class in a heartbeat.
That's my 2 cents at any rate.

Oh, and Tez, I'm very glad to hear your daughter is ok.


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 28, 2012)

Hmm Sanke slight stereotyping there chief... I'm gonna walk into your store now with my head shaved, tattoos on full display carrying empty bags  On a slightly more serious note, with my own limited experience of real world violence, I'd say the survivalist mentality kicked in rather than "hero" one. As I mentioned in an early post, I've stepped in before when close friends were threatened: once, things didn't really escalate beyond verbal, another time however the guy I had an issue with had half a dozen friends around the corner and to be bluntly honest, I got my *** kicked. It's amazing how quickly your focus goes from "this guy is harassing someone I'm with, I'm going to defend her honour" to "protect the head, get up off the ground, get to the car and get the hell out of there".

It's that past experience in fact which led me to start this thread after those emails were sent out for us. The whole thing of "2 outta 3 aint bad" doesn't quite gel in my head when it could quite literally become a life or death situation - over a perfect stranger to boot! - and I wanted to see how others with training far more advanced than mine would respond if faced with that situation. For the most part though, everyone has said stuff along the same lines which I've found to be a huge help in reaffirming my own priorities and mentality. Thank you to everyone who has posted on this so far for that by the way. Even you Z, you've brought up some interesting conversation 

P.S: Tez, so sorry I didn't get to this earlier, I've been using my phone for internet primarily over the past few days so haven't had full access to the forums but I'm also glad that your daughter is ok! For what it's worth, if she's even half as tough as what I picture you to be based on our few limited interactions, I'd say she would probably meet adversity in the ring and force a submission without breaking a sweat


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## Kinghercules (Apr 28, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Why such disdain for Kendo? I'm not a Kendoka myself and while I won't argue that it is a combat art, it definitely has many merits. I'd say any Kendoka who trains seriously would have brilliant speed and reflexes and while they may not be cutting correctly with a sword, if they were to pick up a stick on the street for instance and perform those strikes with power, they would still cause serious injury.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I dont have disdain for the art Kendo.  I just said that as an art thats not really geared for street fightin. People today that train in Kendo do it as a hobby.  No one walks around with a sword.

If the are that you're trainin in doesnt give you the confidants that you need to be able to fight in the street then you're just wastin you time (jus how I feel).  So many ppl nowa days train in the MMA that I wouldnt wanna be unprepared to defend myself in the street.

Just because you train in a traditional art doesnt lessen your skills.  My teacher taught Taekwondo Tangsoodo but had trained in Japan under Toyam Kanken.  So we trained like the Japanese even tho our banner said TKD.  And ever since elementary my trainin has served me well in street situations.  So its not the art that you're trainin in....its what you're bein taught and how you're bein taught.


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## Supra Vijai (Apr 28, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> I dont have disdain for the art Kendo.  I just said that as an art thats not really geared for street fightin. People today that train in Kendo do it as a hobby.  No one walks around with a sword.
> 
> If the are that you're trainin in doesnt give you the confidants that you need to be able to fight in the street then you're just wastin you time (jus how I feel).  So many ppl nowa days train in the MMA that I wouldnt wanna be unprepared to defend myself in the street.
> 
> Just because you train in a traditional art doesnt lessen your skills.  My teacher taught Taekwondo Tangsoodo but had trained in Japan under Toyam Kanken.  So we trained like the Japanese even tho our banner said TKD.  And ever since elementary my trainin has served me well in street situations.  So its not the art that you're trainin in....its what you're bein taught and how you're bein taught.



Agreed no one (sane) walks around with a sword these days. That's not why we train sword work though. Sword gives you incredible insight into strategy not necessarily battlefield fighting because the reality was that Japanese soldiers wouldn't not have fought with swords on the battlefield when the other guy had a spear 3 times longer than most katana.

Again, at no point have I said I lack the confidence to fight in the street should I need to. My entire point was that common sense and logic and self preservation rank higher than heroism. Also the understanding that real life fighting is nothing like in the movies and the bad guys won't take turns to come in and launch their attacks one after the other helps. I don't care who you are or what you train, if you get 3 or more opponents attacking you (not standing there threatening, actually attacking) your chances drop rapidly of getting away unhurt let alone victorious. As for how many people train in the MMA these days, granted, there are a lot of people with at least some basic skills and training but sadly there are just as many delusional ones who train exclusively by watching UFC. Especially here in Australia, it's not nearly as big as issue as elsewhere in the world. Just to clarify though, again at no point did I say we didn't train to defend against all types of fighters in a modern context.

I'm glad your training has served you well in the past, clearly it's kept you alive long enough to be able to post here! However we prefer to avoid the situation in the first place rather than testing what we've learnt to prove it to ourselves or anyone else. As for what we're being taught or how, well that's your opinion (albeit one with no basis) and nothing I say on a forum will change your mind. That's fine, not my job to recruit new students or "convert the non believers". As far as the students in the school are concerned, it works for us and just to be clear, I've tried a few arts under a few instructors and this one is a good fit for me so that's all I'm going to care about.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 29, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> the police do need to start actually doing their job and protecting us



That's not their job, according to the US Supreme Court and numerous lower courts.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 30, 2012)

And just while I'm here.... 



Kinghercules said:


> I dont have disdain for the art Kendo.  I just said that as an art thats not really geared for street fightin. People today that train in Kendo do it as a hobby.  No one walks around with a sword.



So the Tokyo Police and Riot Squad train in Kendo as a hobby? Not really geared for their needs you say? Believe me when I tell you that to these guys, it's about as serious as training can get. TKD, now, there's an art trained as a hobby.... 

You may want to reconsider what you think the benefits of training in an art like Kendo are. Carrying swords in daily life really doesn't enter into it.



Kinghercules said:


> If the are that you're trainin in doesnt give you the confidants that you need to be able to fight in the street then you're just wastin you time (jus how I feel).  So many ppl nowa days train in the MMA that I wouldnt wanna be unprepared to defend myself in the street.



English, please. TOS and all that....

But to your comments, you have a particular impression of martial arts training (one that I'd personally consider very limited and limiting, but that's me), but it is hardly a complete impression for all arts, and all reasons for training. Additionally, who has ever said that Supra's training doesn't give him the confidence that he needs/wants? You haven't even gotten his art right so far (despite it being in his signature... as well as mine), so I'm not sure how you can make any assumptions about what his training actually gives him.



Kinghercules said:


> Just because you train in a traditional art doesnt lessen your skills.  My teacher taught Taekwondo Tangsoodo but had trained in Japan under Toyam Kanken.  So we trained like the Japanese even tho our banner said TKD.  And ever since elementary my trainin has served me well in street situations.  So its not the art that you're trainin in....its what you're bein taught and how you're bein taught.



Ah... TKD... very traditional. But quick question, if it's what you're being taught, and how you're being taught, how is that not the art? And who is "Toyam Kanken"? And why would "training like the Japanese" be better if you're training in a Korean form of art?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Of course there are - But assuming that the gun needs to be cocked before being fired is frankly dangerous, when a fair few guns dont. Id did phrase that way too generally though. I totally forgot about single and double action being a factor. I havent been into guns for years.



Couldn't agree more. For a mere mortal to make such an assumption is to invite death. But if you can back down three armed robbers by doing nothing more than glaring drunkenly up at them, then maybe you can also, by pure force of will, turn a DA handgun into a SA.


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## jks9199 (Apr 30, 2012)

Alright, folks, closing this train wreck before I have to issue some infraction points. 

As a general reminder, Martial Talk isn't the place for fraudbusting or simply attacking users.  There's another site for that...  

jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator


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## jks9199 (May 2, 2012)

*Numerous disruptive posts in this thread have been removed, and placed HERE.

This thread is being re-opened.  Any further disruption or personal attacks will lead to infractions being issued, with NO further warnings.

jks9199
MartialTalk Assistant Administrator*


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## Kinghercules (May 2, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> And just while I'm here....


Seriously?
How bout next time you keep it movin?!





Chris Parker said:


> So the Tokyo Police and Riot Squad train in Kendo as a hobby? Not really geared for their needs you say? Believe me when I tell you that to these guys, it's about as serious as training can get. TKD, now, there's an art trained as a hobby....
> 
> You may want to reconsider what you think the benefits of training in an art like Kendo are. Carrying swords in daily life really doesn't enter into it.


 IDK what  you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.


English, please. TOS and all that....



Chris Parker said:


> But to your comments, you have a particular impression of martial arts training (one that I'd personally consider very limited and limiting, but that's me), but it is hardly a complete impression for all arts, and all reasons for training. Additionally, who has ever said that Supra's training doesn't give him the confidence that he needs/wants? You haven't even gotten his art right so far (despite it being in his signature... as well as mine), so I'm not sure how you can make any assumptions about what his training actually gives him.


Thats why I said "Jus how I feel."  If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
You make no sense.



Chris Parker said:


> Ah... TKD... very traditional. But quick question, if it's what you're being taught, and how you're being taught, how is that not the art? And who is "Toyam Kanken"? And why would "training like the Japanese" be better if you're training in a Korean form of art?


Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.


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## Sanke (May 3, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> IDK what  you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.



Just FYI, I know for a fact that the TPF and riot squads train in Kendo. Mostly because my iaido teacher spent a number of years training with them. I'm sure branches are most likely taught Aikido and Karate, but they most definitely also learn Kendo.



Kinghercules said:


> Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.



Speaking of making no sense... How does that answer the question, or have anything to do with training for street fighting? And why would an abstract concept of combat training have to fight in the street in the first place?
If I'm getting what you're saying, the more 'traditional' methods of teaching aren't geared up for self defence training at all, so if you're arguing that a more traditional way of teaching is better, then no, not for everything. 
That's if I'm even reading it right, it's quite difficult to follow what you're going on about.


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## Supra Vijai (May 3, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Seriously?
> How bout next time you keep it movin?!



Might I suggest you look where you wrote this and then go up a whole two posts? Not pages, posts. Being passionate is one thing, being out right arrogant and flaunting specified rules is another... Just saying...






> IDK what  you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.



Herc, this is a martial arts forum with members consisting primarily of martial artists wanting to engage in debate, discussion and ideally expand their knowledge. The attitude of "I really don't care what they do" doesn't help with any of those things, especially when the thing you don't care about was one you brought up in the first place and had put into context for you. 




> Thats why I said "Jus how I feel."  If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
> You make no sense.



Again, this is a forum. A forum is literally defined as follows: 
[h=3]_fo·rum_/&#712;fôr&#601;m/[/h]
Noun:



A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
An Internet message board.


 This is THE place to exchange ideas and share/compare views. That is why this place exists. When you (or I) post a particular view, it is a given that SOMEONE will reply with their view on or approach to the same thing. Also, what part of Mr. Parkers' post made no sense to you? If you specify, I'm sure it can be reworded either by Mr. Parker, myself or Sanke to see if we can make it a bit clearer. 



> Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.



This is not in line with what you said to me in an earlier post. You mentioned it was training in your art that gave you the confidence to handle various street situations. If you mean everytime you get into a fight, you don't summon "TKD TSD MDK" (as listed on your profile) to battle for you then sure. I'm glad you aren't saying real world fights are like Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon. But if you use techniques you've learnt in your art during a street situation (whether it's a stance, verbal de-escalation, evasion, distancing or whatever) then some aspect of your art is fighting in the street at that moment. As I've said before as well, the way we train is slightly different it seems. With myself, training my art isn't to keep me alive in the street, that's what the modern self defence side of things are for. Even then, it's not to fight for the sake of fighting. It's getting home safe and doing whatever that takes. BEST BEST BEST case scenario is: pick up on trouble, move away and avoid trouble, leave, go elsewhere. That's it. No fighting, no shouting, no pushing and shoving, just avoid and move on. 



Sanke said:


> Speaking of making no sense... How does that answer the question, or have anything to do with training for street fighting? And why would an abstract concept of combat training have to fight in the street in the first place?
> *If I'm getting what you're saying, the more 'traditional' methods of teaching aren't geared up for self defence training at all, so if you're arguing that a more traditional way of teaching is better, then no, not for everything. *
> That's if I'm even reading it right, it's quite difficult to follow what you're going on about.



The phrasing there is a bit odd chief  Ignoring the first part up to the comma though, agreed! Traditional stuff is great as we both know but it has it's time and place and that is not present time street violence... That being said, I would say it is important to realise how much influence the traditional has on the modern. I mean the modern had to be built off something and have adapted in order for it to have the title "modern" right? If nothing else, take the training we did on Wednesday morning when we were drilling knife defences. You put me under pressure, I blanked on the actual techniques taught in class and instead what came out was a variant on a traditional takedown and finish. If there was no traditional training that I believed to be powerful enough in that situation and I blanked on the modern stuff, all I would have had left would have been the freeze response... not pretty at the best of times, let alone against a knife


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## Burnse (May 3, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Seriously?
> How bout next time you keep it movin?!
> 
> 
> ...



With all due respect your style of writing in this post conjures the image of one of my hens fluffing itself up and bobbing her head. Was your intention to pick a fight or let off some steam? Because you didn't really bring any new information or even really rebutt the post you are quoting. You just made excuses and attacked the poster. I know in forums it seems like that's all people do but they usually have the decency to veil it and back it up with some form of evidence or a relevant response.

P.S. Was 'Truefully" meant to be truthfully or truly?


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## Sanke (May 3, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> The phrasing there is a bit odd chief  Ignoring the first part up to the comma though, agreed! Traditional stuff is great as we both know but it has it's time and place and that is not present time street violence... That being said, I would say it is important to realise how much influence the traditional has on the modern. I mean the modern had to be built off something and have adapted in order for it to have the title "modern" right? If nothing else, take the training we did on Wednesday morning when we were drilling knife defences. You put me under pressure, I blanked on the actual techniques taught in class and instead what came out was a variant on a traditional takedown and finish. If there was no traditional training that I believed to be powerful enough in that situation and I blanked on the modern stuff, all I would have had left would have been the freeze response... not pretty at the best of times, let alone against a knife



Haha, yeah haven't always been the best at phrasing... but you got what I was saying in the end 
For the rest, agreed, traditional training is fantastic, it informs the modern and instils tactics and strategies that are more than applicable for self-defence. 
But it's just not the perfect training method for every situation. No one method is. Each method has it's ups and downs, and is best suited to the environment and realities that it was designed for in the first place.
And yeah, last thing in the world you want is to freeze up when confronted by a knife... the results would not be pretty...


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## Supra Vijai (May 3, 2012)

Sanke said:


> But it's just not the perfect training method for every situation. No one method is. Each method has it's ups and downs, and is best suited to the environment and realities that it was designed for in the first place.



Nice and concise  Just to add to it though (cause we all know I like to be a bit long winded at times), the same is true of the broader "arts" as well. No one art is perfect. They all worked in their own time, for their own purposes but they all have pros and cons. That said, to me at least, training one art with the attitude or approach of another (i.e: training Western boxing with the attitude and teaching style of Wing Chun; or as Herc mentioned, training TKD with a Japanese style of teaching) really kinda misses the point and detracts from everything the primary art has to offer in the first place.


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## Chris Parker (May 4, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Seriously?
> How bout next time you keep it movin?!



Yeah, you seem to have missed out on the excitement that has been moved to another thread, but how about I correct blatant mistakes when posted by people who have no idea what they're talking about instead? Like here.



Kinghercules said:


> IDK what  you been told but the police of Japan primary trainin is in karate and Aikido but truefully.....I really dont care what they do.



You were discussing Kendo as having no "real world" fighting benefit. I countered that with examples of people who train in it for that specific reason, as opposed to your inaccurate assumption that everyone training Kendo are doing it only as a fun hobby. 

Oh, and you're wrong, by the way. I don't know what you've been told, but you're a fair bit off base.



Kinghercules said:


> Thats why I said "Jus how I feel."  If you know I have a "particular" view WTH you commentin for?
> You make no sense.



You presented your particular view as the only way things are, a way that has universal application, that everyone needs to adhere to. I was pointing out that it wasn't universal, it wasn't the only way things are done, and it doesn't apply to everyone. As well as it being a fairly flawed and limited approach in the first place.



Kinghercules said:


> Because the "art" isnt the one havin to fight in the street.



So why train in one? Especially if you think they're only about having to fight in the street...


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