# new program??



## warriorsage (Oct 3, 2002)

I just noticed in the recent BlackBelt magazine that there is a new video training program for American Kenpo (www.blackbelt4you.com). I've heard the name  Adrian Roman for some time, but don't know him personally so I cehcked it out.

What I found interesting about the program is that when you pay the $900+ up front, you get all the videos, a CD rom AND your blackbelt and certificate already signed. Hmmmm??

The one thing I just can't figure out, however, is the disclaimer at the bottom of the certification page: 

http://www.blackbelt4you.com/certification.html

Any ideas? It seems to contradict itself.


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## phoenix (Oct 3, 2002)

"Receipt of the American Kenpo Black Belt Certificate from GrandMaster Adrian Roman does not endorse or certify the recipient in any form or manner."


Why, it makes perfect sense.  Possession of a Title of Ownership doesn't mean you actually OWN an automobiles...er...a Deed of Trust doesn't mean you actually OWN a pice of property...er...a Receipt of Sale doesn't actually prove that you purchased something...er...ok, I give up.

Anybody care to explain this one??

Shoot, and all this time I've been trying to actually LEARN stuff before getting a black belt certificate.  Silly me.

Sean


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## KenpoDave (Oct 3, 2002)

Well, dang, if you buy Ed Hutchison's Dragon Kenpo series, you get a 3rd black certificate. :shrug:

I would certainly pay more and even watch the tapes all the way thru at least twice if it would get me a 3rd black!

 
Dave


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 3, 2002)

I read it as the following:

Come Learn mystuff and for attendance yu will get this certificate but it does not mean you are really and truly an instructor or certified. It also implies that you may not use his name since he does not endorse you. To me it is all about the money, as I read it.

Just my opinion, and I have been wrong before.

Rich


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## phoenix (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> 
> *Well, dang, if you buy Ed Hutchison's Dragon Kenpo series, you get a 3rd black certificate. :shrug:
> 
> ...



Dave,

Wow, thanks for the info...I think, though, that I'm going to hold out for one that teaches me through to grandmaster...that way I can just certify and endorse myself, since I would have learned my own style from someone else from white through 10th black.  Did that make a sort of twisted non-logical sense?  I thought not!

Sean


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## WilliamTLear (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by warriorsage _
> 
> *I just noticed in the recent BlackBelt magazine that there is a new video training program for American Kenpo (www.blackbelt4you.com). I've heard the name  Adrian Roman for some time, but don't know him personally so I cehcked it out.
> 
> ...



Mr. Whipple,

I can't believe this kind of crap. I guess a black belt truly has no meaning anymore. What a shame! I wonder when Colleges & Universities are going to start mailing out diplomas to people that pay, but don't attend class, and then have the balls to call it the honor system. (Problem is that there doesn't seem to be *ANY* honor in doing this kind of thing at all).

Oh well, I guess people will do anything to make a buck. Look at it this way guys... with all those "Honor System Black Belts" running around out there, We (the people that sweat and work hard at "Our" art) will only look better.

Sincerely,
Billy

P.S. You have a good head on your shoulders brother. I love working out with you and Clyde when I get the chance to come up there. When is the next time we can get together?


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## warriorsage (Oct 4, 2002)

Yeah, I feel pretty strongly about programs like this. I withheld my opinions to see what others felt first, but I think it's pretty obvious when a program comes right out and says here's your certificate, BUT...this doesn't certify you. Silly me. I thought that's exactly what a certificate did. Regardless of the quality of material, programs like this seriously damage the credibility of our art, especially when people read the ad and it says get your blackbelt in a year or less.

And the cost, man! Atleast the Dragon Kenpo package only cost $99.

Billy, I think we're on for this weekend but I'm waiting for Clyde to make it official. When I hear from him, I'll let you know, or if you talk to him first, let me know.

Ron


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## KenpoDave (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
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> *
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I get daily junk e-mails from colleges offering me various "advanced degrees" in one thing or another.  Heck, I think Clyde might even be an ordained minister if memory serves... 

Dave


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## WilliamTLear (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Dave,

If I'm not mistaken those mail-outs are advertisements for an education... not a degree before the education (I could be wrong).

By the way... Wes Idol is an ordained minister! LOL! If Clyde is, I might have to do it too. Then we can get together and truly preach! LOL!

Billy "But, I wear black shoe laces?" Lear


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## Seig (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *
> 
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And we all know about your patent leather shoes trick too........


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 5, 2002)

This is just another example of "EL Torro Pu Pu".

Plain and simple.......... peeeee youuuuuuuuu
can't you even smell it........ 

(Now let's watch....... Will Ricardo or Billy be the 1st ones to get their's)  hee hee

 :rofl: :boing2: :lol:


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## GouRonin (Oct 5, 2002)

We already spoke about Adrian Roman in the "Western Martial Arts" section a while back regarding this. Look under, "Native American martial arts" thread.

I myself am schocked. Another black belt by mail/video in the kenpo world??

No wonder the Koreans are afraid.


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## RCastillo (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *This is just another example of "EL Torro Pu Pu".
> 
> ...



I thought about it real hard, but I decided to study under Seig, that way, the beatings I get are legitimate.


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## c2kenpo (Oct 6, 2002)

This is not much of a shock. Many people are "tossing" out learn at home systems. But why worry about it, real adult students that really want to learn a martial art or self defense system will go to a valid instructor and pay. The idea is to go around and see about introductory programs and take some time to talk to some of the students and staff. The majority of martial arts students today are children and I'm sure that not even the "Black Belt at Home" series will keep thier intrest that Mom & Dad feel they got thier monies worth. Ever see a video teach a child self-discipline? If you have please l;et me know, that would really help!
Besides some of those vids are fun to buy on clearance somewhere and watch for a substitute for Comedy Central, when your cable goes on the blink. 
C2


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 6, 2002)

I am adamantly in favor of such mail-order belts. If I'm ever stupid enough to get into a real fight again, and I'm unlucky enough to end up with a martial artist, I want it to be with somebody who's both arrogant (I've got a black belt!) and incompetent (but I don't know jack!).

As longer-distance benefits, it helps cut down on the number of idiots in the studios. And, folks who might be out funding lunatic causes have less money to spend on them.

I'm absolutely in favor. Go get them videos, guys.


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## Michael Billings (Oct 7, 2002)

Just a word - DON'T.  

My instructor asked that I take his link off my web page "links" page.  He has never asked for anything like that.  He has known Roman for years, since they are both from the same area, Dallas / Fort Worth.   He and Roman have been around the Art for probably 30 years.  But has he been IN or AT the Art? 

I guess that it only takes a few people to pay for the advertisment - remember, you get what you pay for, let the buyer beware.  As most of you know, I almost never chime in with the negative comments group, but this is different.  I can see some neophyte pay almost a grand for something with a disclaimer on it.  That amount of money could represent a substantial sum to some young student ... and I would not want to see anyone taken advantage of to this degree.

Bad Karma in my opinion, sometimes I wish for instant karma instead.
-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## brianhunter (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *Just a word - DON'T.
> 
> ...



I havent looked at it as taking advantage of someone...Im glad you put it that way, someone new in the art not knowing any better might think they are really getting something................

"It shall also be my responsibility to protect any student from ravenous individuals who would try to take advantage of personal weaknesses, to divest the gullible into unprofitable gains"


Brian Hunter


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## Nightingale (Oct 7, 2002)

using videos is fine for review, or for a very advanced student, but you just plain can't learn good quality basics without an instructor standing there nitpicking.


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## jeffkyle (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *using videos is fine for review, or for a very advanced student, but you just plain can't learn good quality basics without an instructor standing there nitpicking. *




AMEN to that!!!


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## GouRonin (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *"It shall also be my responsibility to protect any student from ravenous individuals who would try to take advantage of personal weaknesses, to divest the gullible into unprofitable gains"*



How can you expect others to follow that when the people leading don't bother?


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## Michael Billings (Oct 7, 2002)

You do what you can ... and try to lead by example.  We can only do what we can do, and hope that it is enough to help someone else.  Touching one life in a positive way is worth the trouble and time for me.  Especially when it is one of my students and it comes as a complete suprise to me!  When I am down, like Edmund Jr., I dip down into a few of those "feel goods" and it picks me back up a bit.

"Seniors" out there who do not lead by example, may have at one time ... or may not have - in their younger years.  But now they stand at the forefront of Kenpo, and Walk the Walk, don't just Talk the Talk.  And I am talking ethical responsibility here.  We all have things we regret, how we treated others, unkind things we have said, or actions we have taken, it's part of being human.  But I don't think all the "Seniors" "don't bother."  I Hope you were generalizing given this particular individual's apparently ravenous actions. 

 :soapbox: 
There I go again!  STOP ME THEY SCREAMED!!! 

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## GouRonin (Oct 7, 2002)

It's hard to have any sympathy. The art is tearing itself apart at a business level. Every senior is saying, _"I deserve to get paid for my years of work and effort."_ I'd never say they didn't. But then all these other guys come up and claim they can teach you the same stuff and low and behold their prices are close to the seniors but just a few bucks cheaper. The seniors say to themselves, _"If these guys can make X bucks an hour then I deserve at least X."_

It should work that the ranks ought to let you know who to be paying. But the general public doesn't know. You have the seniors saying, _"I'll charge this much for rank too."_ But then these no name guys shoot up in rank and the public says to themselves, _"Heck, these guys are all pretty high ranked."_ They have no clue what to buy.

In most cases of supply and demand the lowest price wins but not in this case. Eash person wants to be making the big bucks and fuels they are worth more than the other guy and they start to price themselves out of the market. It's a bit like killing the golden goose. It doesn't happen all at once but it happens slowly.
If I open a store and charge more than my competition then I better have a better quality product or awesome customer service.

Much as in baseball, when these guys demanding prices they are not worth start in, the stars of the game suffer as well. Then eventually they outprice themselves. Soon the fans get a little cheesed that they are feeding this machine.

No one is saying that the these guys don't deserve to make a living off of what they do. They're not monks with a vow of poverty. But American Kenpo is becoming so much like TKD that it's not funny. Inflated belt ranks. High prices. Poorer instruction starting to prevail because of the loss of knowledge. Less and less time to black.

_"It shall also be my responsibility to protect any student from ravenous individuals who would try to take advantage of personal weaknesses, to divest the gullible into unprofitable gains"_

I see a few standing their ground like a mighty oak in the wind. I see the rest making hand gliders and taking flight to soar to supposed glory, not realizing that they will not have anywhere to land once they have taken off.


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> How can you expect others to follow that when the people leading don't bother?
> *



I think you should re-examine what you say......... not "ALL" People Leading .............. fit your statement! 

But indeed .............. there are "a few" out there that live by the dollar and promote folks without working with their material that they teach.  One "look see" viewing then promote.... is weak at best to just entice someone into their association .... or the mail  order black belt video course, which goes to show how easy belt ranks can be found ... sorry --- bought ........ today....!! 

NO Honor, or Integrity at ALL with these few supposed Seniors, and then some ask why the system is so disseminated.   Easy........ a few rotten leaders.

Thank goodness there are (Yin/Yang) several good teachers with the best intentions as well!!  

"If it's that easy......  question the quality."

Power to the Meercats!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I think you should re-examine what you say......... not "ALL" People Leading .............. fit your statement!
> 
> But indeed .............. there are "a few" out there that live by the dollar.
> ...



I've spoken with you on this and I know you actually believe it's only a few. It's not. It's out of control. Like the jar of ants that double in population every minute, no one seems to understand it's in that very last minute when everything is lost.

It's not just a few. I would hasten to say it's the majority. I don't know why people cannot see that.



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Thank goodness there are (Yin/Yang) several good teachers with the best intentions as well!!*



_"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."_ I hear what you are saying. There ARE good teachers out there. There are more BAD teachers IMHO.



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *"If it's that easy......  question the quality."*



Welcome to north america where everything is fast food oriented. The motto _"Nothing good can come without hard long work"_ has been replaced with, _"If you think think you may fail, it's probably not worth doing so why bother trying?"_

I am telling you. There is an epidemic on the rise. Yeats wrote it best when he said: *"And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"*


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2002)

There's an extended discussion of this sort of issue in left-leaning cultural criticism, and has been ever since Walter Benjamin's (now there was a guy with bad timing!), "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction." I recommend reading Guy Debord (also killed himself), "The Society of the Spectacle." basically, the problem is this: can a work of art predicated upon the notions of a feudal society (for example, direct transmission to the student) survive in a historical period organized around aimulacra, reproduction in all its forms?

I also recommend reading Lionel Trilling, "Sincerity and Authenticity," which is about the history of these two concepts.

OK, OK. It's just the way I see it.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 7, 2002)

Oops. First off, it's "simulacra," not aimulacra. Second, where the hell am I remembering, "meercats," from? is it Telzey's stories, or is it C.J. Cheeryh, a considerably-underappreciated writer...all martial artists sholuld be forced to read, "Downbelow Station," on the matter of fighting strategy.


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## Seig (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *I thought about it real hard, but I decided to study under Seig, that way, the beatings I get are legitimate. *


C'mon up, it'll be fun!


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## meni (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *using videos is fine for review, or for a very advanced student, but you just plain can't learn good quality basics without an instructor standing there nitpicking. *




I do not know why bother just go to your local martial arts  store and by a black belt, save about 885 bucks!


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