# kukiwon certification



## Manny (Jan 14, 2011)

How many of you have the kukiwon certification (black belt)?  I don't need to be a black belt certificaed by KKW to teach or even open a dojang I guess, and I know that some guys here are just certificated by his/her own dojang. It's so crucial to be kuki certified?

Manny


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## d1jinx (Jan 14, 2011)

I do.

But unless you want to teach Kukki TKD and want to certify your students through KKW.... 
Otherwise... who cares.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 14, 2011)

I hold a Kukkiwon dan grade.  I hold a higher grade independently, but my Kukki grade is the one that I consider official and the one that I consider my actual grade to be.

As to how crucial it is, it really depends on what you are doing.  Certain levels of competition require a Kukki grade of a certain level, so if you are an athlete competing at those levels, then it is fairly crucial.

If you want to be part of a unified, global taekwondo, again, it is fairly crucial.

If you are training/teaching in your own place and your students are aware that grades from your school are only really valid within the school walls, then it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Regardless of what you are doing, I consider it to be beneficial.  You don't pay the Kukkiwon any kind of annual dues or membership fees and their association fees for dan grade testings are very reasonable.  Being a Kukkiwon certified instructor of fourth dan or greater enables you to offer another benefit to your students.  

From a marketing standpoint, in a certification/degree obsessed United States, having certification with a legitimate international association is certainly a potential benefit.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> I do.
> 
> But unless you want to teach Kukki TKD and want to certify your students through KKW....
> Otherwise... who cares.


I think more should care as the KKW is the world TKD academy. Having a certificate from them means something, with that something evaluated by individuals in the way they see best. I pride myself from having certificates signed by what I consider the principle founder of my martial art. Imagine having a certificate signed by the man who made the name TKD.
I would love to see one clear, strong world-wide standard certificate that would say, this person earned this!
(I know, even earned is subjective)
While the KKW has no real standard that can be enforced world-wide (no one does in fact), it is the mecca of TKD & as such is a valued & respected piece of paper, or at least should be by all.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 14, 2011)

Unless you want to compete in the Olympics or train students to compete in the Olympics it's not necessary. 

Pax,

Chris


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## jthomas1600 (Jan 14, 2011)

Many, I'll just reply from a new comer to TKD and a students perspective. I had no idea what Kukiwon, ITF, WTF, or any of the other stuff was when we went looking for a school. We ended up in a Kukiwon school but I chose the school based on what we saw in the instructor and the other students. I would be perfectly happy in an independent school and am not overly concerned with how fancy my instructors certificate is or who signed it.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

I also think that it is far more important to feel that one has earned their belt & that this feeling is made complete when both your instructor, examiner(s) & outsiders say, YES this person DID INDEED sweat, work hard, learn & earn this recognition. 
It is far more important to earn & demonstrate on the floor, in the arena that it was earned. If that happens, the piece of paper is not important, but hopefully that paper will reflect the earning, if so, then the paper by virtue of what it represents has significance as it comes to signify the process of earning it.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Unless you want to compete in the Olympics or train students to compete in the Olympics it's not necessary.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Actually that may not be the case, as the WTF will now recognize students & their certificates issued by the WTA, a group of ITF Pioneers. I also read somewhere that the Olympic rules do not allow for discrimination, as no boxer needs a piece of paper from the ABC Boxing Group. They just need to win their national trials or successfully complete their respective national selection process.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Actually that may not be the case, as the WTF will now recognize students & their certificates issued by the WTA, a group of ITF Pioneers. I also read somewhere that the Olympic rules do not allow for discrimination, as no boxer needs a piece of paper from the ABC Boxing Group. They just need to win their national trials or successfully complete their respective national selection process.


 
In that case it's totally unnecessary. (I'd be interested in seeing a case brought before the Olympics with a non-KKW certified person wanting to compete, though. Does one have to be KKW certified to compete for a country's Olympic team in the first place?)

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Jan 14, 2011)

No, I am not KKW certified and I have been fairly outspoken in the past about the lack of value in general of 'certification' from any organization, not just the KKW.

Yet, I am currently mulling over an opportunity to take over a commercial TKD studio.  It is owned by a friend of mine who is KKW, and part of the deal would be taking steps to become eventually a KKW certified instructor.

Bah.


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## DMcHenry (Jan 14, 2011)

I have a KKW cert, but a personal dojang certificate much higher.  Although my primary art is TSD, I do help teach at a Kukki-TKD dojang once a week.

I would just say it's a 'nice to have'.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> In that case it's totally unnecessary. (I'd be interested in seeing a case brought before the Olympics with a non-KKW certified person wanting to compete, though. Does one have to be KKW certified to compete for a country's Olympic team in the first place?)
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


That would appear to be a key legal point that may vary from nation to nation & their respective laws & legal processes.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

DMcHenry said:


> I have a KKW cert, but a personal dojang certificate much higher.  Although my primary art is TSD, I do help teach at a Kukki-TKD dojang once a week.
> 
> I would just say it's a 'nice to have'.


I think it would also be nice to have.
Now how do you fit in at the KKW dojang with your primary TangSuDo?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> No, I am not KKW certified and I have been fairly outspoken in the past about the lack of value in general of 'certification' from any organization, not just the KKW.


Certain things have an intrinsic value. Food, for example, has intrinsic value; we need it to survive. Land has intrinsic value; it is required to grow crops in any meaningful amount.

Other things have an arbitrary value. Gold, for example, has only the value that is placed upon it arbitrarilly because someone arbitrarilly decided that because it was rarer and prettier, it had greater value.

But gold has little or no intrinsic value. In fact, it probably has greater practical value now (it is a conductive metal) than it did when explorers searched for mythical cities made of the stuff. 

Gold is just shiney and pretty. It really isn't good for much outside of ornamentation, and those things that it is good for are often better served with materials that both function better and which cost less. 

Now, does that make gold useless? Of course not. But I do not need gold to secure the items that I actually *do* need.

KKW certification has a value similar to that of gold. It is valuable to a large group of people. It does afford you certain benefits that would be otherwise unattainable. It also impresses a great many people who do not have it. But you do not *need* it to teach taekwondo or to train in taekwondo.

Like gold, it affords you things that you may not 'need' but that will enhance your experience and that will connect you to people that you might otherwise not be able to connect with.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> KKW certification has a value similar to that of gold. It is valuable to a large group of people. It does afford you certain benefits that would be otherwise unattainable. It also impresses a great many people who do not have it. But you do not *need* it to teach taekwondo or to train in taekwondo.
> 
> Like gold, it affords you things that you may not 'need' but that will enhance your experience and that will connect you to people that you might otherwise not be able to connect with.
> 
> Daniel



Yep, I've said all along if membership in an org gives you the chance to train with excellent people, than it is of value.  I'm a member of the United States Aikido Federation which has ample seminar and advanced training opportunities.

But to be blunt, if your TKD (or karate or aikido or whatever) is bad, no amount of certificates or membership cards can cover that.  And furthermore, the place of the organization should be way behind in importance to the relationship you have with your own teacher.  I sometimes get the feeling that for some, the exact opposite is true.


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

Manny said:


> How many of you have the kukiwon certification (black belt)? I don't need to be a black belt certificaed by KKW to teach or even open a dojang I guess, and I know that some guys here are just certificated by his/her own dojang. It's so crucial to be kuki certified?
> 
> Manny


 
I am KKW certified.  Is it crucial to have it?  It depends on what your goals are in the martial arts.  While to some the KKW cert means nothing to others it means a lot.  So it is your personal preference.  However, if you are trying to keep the vision of the original pioneers alive then yes, it would be considered crucial to be KKW certified.


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## DMcHenry (Jan 14, 2011)

(in response to Karatemom)

I am embraced by the inctructor and students. I enjoy working with them, and have received very positive feedback. The instructor has turned over class to me completely some nights, and may be there training or has even left, trusting me to run class for him (I do attend an Arnis class afterward).

So even though we may do some things differently, the vast majority is identical. They get to learn some new things from me, and I have fun teaching them. Partly I think it's just my teaching style. I just explain my 'style' is from an older TKD (started in the mid '70s) but we're all TKD. I had tested up through 5th Dan for TKD and have been promoted to 7th in TSD - but I eventually did test and was registered for a 1st Dan KKW. My TSD instructor was 9th Dan KKW but didn't award KKW certs. I received my last TKD promotions from a TKD/TSD master who is 6th Dan KKW.

I've trained in independent, KKW & ITF dojangs besides TSD & HKD, and spent many years with several Japanese styles too. It's all good. Experiences come in many flavors which all add to my general knowledge and background. Helps me to better relate to students from all different schools/styles. I just prefer TSD.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Yep, I've said all along if membership in an org gives you the chance to train with excellent people, than it is of value. I'm a member of the United States Aikido Federation which has ample seminar and advanced training opportunities.
> 
> But to be blunt, if your TKD (or karate or aikido or whatever) is bad, no amount of certificates or membership cards can cover that. And furthermore, the place of the organization should be way behind in importance to the relationship you have with your own teacher. I sometimes get the feeling that for some, the exact opposite is true.


I absolutely agree. Certifying a person with 'bad' taekwondo doesn't make their taekwondo any less bad; with or without the certificate, it's still bad. 

Kind of like gold plating a Yugo. Yes, it may be prettier, and people who are impressed by gold plated things may be impressed, but in the end, its still just a Yugo.

The only difference really is that a person with bad taekwondo can potentially make their taekwondo better through proper instruction and practice, while a Yugo will always be a Yugo.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

DMcHenry said:


> (in response to Karatemom)
> 
> I am embraced by the inctructor and students. I enjoy working with them, and have received very positive feedback. The instructor has turned over class to me completely some nights, and may be there training or has even left, trusting me to run class for him (I do attend an Arnis class afterward).
> 
> ...


Sounds like you would make a good & qualified candidate for a KKW skip Dan(s) program. Thank you for your response & keep up the good work.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I absolutely agree. Certifying a person with 'bad' taekwondo doesn't make their taekwondo any less bad; with or without the certificate, it's still bad.


Plus in my view it can devalue the perceived value of the certificate. This if it happens, can have a corrosive effect on other like certified & deserving students.


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## DMcHenry (Jan 14, 2011)

Thank you KarateMom.  I dont want this to sound bad or negative, but Im just not interested in getting more rank.  To me it would just be spending money to get a piece of paper.  Im basically semi-retired, only teaching private lessons, teaching at seminars or helping other instructors.  I have plenty of certs, and dont need/want any stripes on my belt (Ive never had a belt with stripes on it anyway).   Maybe if I were running a commercial dojang it could be more of a marketing tool.   Its not that Im not motivated, I love to learn and am taking an Modern Arnis class right now and if I had the money would take up Haidong gumdo as I was offered to get into a Masters program with that.   I teach for the fun of it now and it keeps me involved in martial arts and helping others.

Take care,
Mac


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

DMcHenry said:


> I dont want this to sound bad or negative, but Im just not interested in getting more rank.




I can remember a time when you were interested in obtaining more Kukkiwon rank.


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## d1jinx (Jan 14, 2011)

I still say, at the end of the day, Your skills, mentality and the way you carry yourself are your TRUE certification... the peice of paper is... well.... a piece of paper.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 14, 2011)

Manny said:


> How many of you have the kukiwon certification (black belt)?  I don't need to be a black belt certificaed by KKW to teach or even open a dojang I guess, and I know that some guys here are just certificated by his/her own dojang. It's so crucial to be kuki certified?



I do have a Kukkiwon certificate (and waiting for my new one to arrive) and I consider it fairly essential.  However, bear in mind my view on what Taekwondo means (another thread) and where I am the Kukkiwon is standard and the most common Taekwondo I discuss.

I wouldn't have a problem accepting a student without a Kukkiwon certificate, but I would try to help them get promoted through the Kukkiwon.


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## DMcHenry (Jan 14, 2011)

(response to Glenn)

Yes sir, as you and several others were encouraging me to get KKW certified, which I did. That was a few years back when I was working with several TKD instructors switching over into TSD and KKW certification was important to them. As I work with both TKD & TSD students, it has helped (in their view) having TKD ranking. I had even had several students from an ATA offshoot school about to test for Black Belt in their system drop it and start over at white belt with me. So it did help working with my TKD students, and helps me now that I&#8217;m teaching at a TKD dojang once a week. 

At one time I did want to achieve at least a 4th Dan KKW so I would be able to register my own students seeking KKW certs, and yes you were encouraging me and offering to help, which was appreciated. I just never finished that journey. It also was a bit de-motivating having the signature on it from one who had been sent to prison for embezzlement etc. I couldn&#8217;t see myself sending more money to Korea for that.

Regards,
Mac


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

DMcHenry said:


> It also was a bit de-motivating having the signature on it from one who had been sent to prison for embezzlement etc. I couldnt see myself sending more money to Korea for that.




We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do, which was to build a bridge to North Korea. Part of this involved giving North Korea monies to develop their country's sports programs, money which was given to Dr. Kim by the Korean government. Dr. Kim's mistake was accepting an appointed position in the General Assembly to fill a vacant seat. The General Assembly is what we would call in the United States our Congress. When a new President was elected, from a different political party from Dr. Kim, that new party got upset and turned on Dr. Kim and persecuted him. Dr. Kim did not fight the charges, accepted all responsibility, and resigned from all of his positions, including his IOC seat. He was later released, and pardoned. The president who initiated the charges against Dr. Kim recently killed himself by jumping off a mountain top in Korea, because his family was being accused of taking bribes and other alleged misdeeds while he was President. 

The general consensus today is that Dr. Kim did not do anything wrong, except perhaps in the eyes of those who do not know the whole story and/or feel the need to make recriminatory comments to at least partially blame others for a situation of their own making (I.e., failure to complete intended goal of obtaining Kukkiwon 4th Dan, for example). 

Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

*Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in  Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.
*


puunui said:


> We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do, which was to build a bridge to North Korea. Part of this involved giving North Korea monies to develop their country's sports programs, money which was given to Dr. Kim by the Korean government. Dr. Kim's mistake was accepting an appointed position in the General Assembly to fill a vacant seat. The General Assembly is what we would call in the United States our Congress. When a new President was elected, from a different political party from Dr. Kim, that new party got upset and turned on Dr. Kim and persecuted him. Dr. Kim did not fight the charges, accepted all responsibility, and resigned from all of his positions, including his IOC seat. He was later released, and pardoned. The president who initiated the charges against Dr. Kim recently killed himself by jumping off a mountain top in Korea, because his family was being accused of taking bribes and other alleged misdeeds while he was President.
> 
> The general consensus today is that Dr. Kim did not do anything wrong, except perhaps in the eyes of those who do not know the whole story and/or feel the need to make recriminatory comments to at least partially blame others for a situation of their own making (I.e., failure to complete intended goal of obtaining Kukkiwon 4th Dan, for example).
> 
> *Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.*


I bolded, re-quoted & repeated this again: *Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in  Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us.*

I concur with this sentiment. We do & Korea does owe a great debt of gratitude to this great man that is so gifted, talented & worked so hard for Korea & TKD. This to me is not something that can be honestly refuted.
However, we must be clear that Dr Kim did indeed break the law in south Korea, for which he was arrested, convicted & served time for. Now what he did may have been at the behest of the Korean govt & may have even had noble aims, but it was against the law to funnel money under the table in the democratic ROK. That is the plain & simple truth. The reason it was done under the table was because it was in fact against the law! In the USA under the Reagan administration similar types of transgressions were done when they funneled money to the Contras & tied it into an elaborate scheme to free hostages, in what some would say was to pay for their release.
So the fact that it was for the ROK govt, does not make it right or legal, even if some think it was the right thing to do. Pardons are also political as well. Now we do remember the outrage that Gen Choi caused when he went to the north when it was against the ROK law for south Koreans to do that, even though he was now a Canadian citizen, going there with a Canadian passport. The law is the law. as to the tragic suicide by the former ROK president, yes that is another example of the corruption that has plagued Korea for so long. This however should not be seen as an excuse for others poor or illegal behavior, as his corruption was on different matters.
You are of course giving another fine example of how the nasty Korean politics have played a part in TKD's history & the context of the times that its development took place in, all important factors to know & consider when trying to sort through TKD confusing & complex history!

Now as a question for clarification: Was Dr Kim's pardon a full & complete pardon?

*Dr. Kim is a great man, a one of a kind treasure, and everyone in  Taekwondo owes him a debt of gratitude for what he has done for us. (Repeated yet again, as I do not want to have anyone think my reply was a personal attack in any way, shape or form on the pivotal figure that was so important for TKD & Korea)
*


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Now as a question for clarification: Was Dr Kim's pardon a full & complete pardon?




You go do your google search and you tell me. This discussion that we have been having, from my perspective, has been one sided. I provide all the facts, and you sit back and provide your commentary on how all of the facts I provide supports General Choi in one way or another, without providing any additional facts outside of what you may have read in General Choi's autobiography. I'm tired of that. But I do wish to thank you, because how I feel dealing with you is probably how the pioneers felt, dealing with General Choi. Now I truly understand, on another level, and from a different perspective, how the pioneers viewed things.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> You go do your google search and you tell me. This discussion that we have been having, from my perspective, has been one sided. I provide all the facts, and you sit back and provide your commentary on how all of the facts I provide supports General Choi in one way or another, without providing any additional facts outside of what you may have read in General Choi's autobiography. I'm tired of that. But I do wish to thank you, because how I feel dealing with you is probably how the pioneers felt, dealing with General Choi. Now I truly understand, on another level, and from a different perspective, how the pioneers viewed things.


I think you make valuable contributions by sharing what some pioneers told you. However relaying info, no matter how accurate your transmission is, may not be factual or facts, unless the underlying info that you transmit are facts or factual in nature.
(This is not to be interpreted as any attack that what you said or shared is not truthful, as I do believe that you are doing a great service, but independent verification is usually required to make something factual)


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## mango.man (Jan 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> We discussed this before. The short of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was only doing what the Korean government told him to do.



And the Nazi army were only following instructions from government officials too.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 15, 2011)

I dont have a kukki cert and that doesnt worry me in the slightest. I can fully understand why it is important for some, especially if olympic sparring is your go. But for me, I am yet to hear of one reason why it would benefit me. If for some reason my club ceased to exist (which wont ever happen anyway), I would be more likely to go and find a hapkido club or ITF club to train at as they seem more similar to what I currently do. Because I dont know the taegeks or spar WTF style I would not head in the kukki direction anyway.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 15, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *puunui* 

 
_We discussed this before. The short  of it is that Dr. Kim (who longer signs the Kukkiwon certificates) was  only doing what the Korean government told him to do.
_


mango.man said:


> And the Nazi army were only following instructions from government officials too.


While your point is true, I would like to say that what the Nazis did under Hitler was really unprecedented in history in depth & brutality. To be clear the south Korean govt was not like this & Dr Kim was not asked to do anything remotely similar to the atrocities of Hitler & the Nazi govt. 

When we look at the all important history we will see that the south Korean govt broke their own laws that they had in place, often for dealing with the north & managing the threat from them. It is probably more analogous to the example of how Gen Choi broke their laws when he 1st went to the north, even though he had a Canadian passport & they could not touch him as he was now Canadian. But it still violated their laws. Another possibly more fitting example that history gives us is the US govt doing this "under the radar" or "under the table", which is a softer way of saying against the law, was when they dealt with arms & drugs as a covert way of dealing with terrorists & other anti-American interests like the Reagan administration did, (which I am sure most do or have done things like that). While some may argue & they do, that it may have been the right thing to do & the cause was a noble one & not a profit motivated criminal one, it was still against the law, hence the need to "go under the radar or table" in order to circumvent the laws, which is exactly what they did. They broke the law. 

Pardons are actions taken by executives that are empowered to do same. Depending on the laws broken & the place where the law was broken, that executive may be a governor or president, etc. Pardons are in place as a vehicle to rectify injustices, as no justice system is completely perfect. However pardons are also political. When a pardon is granted, the motivation for said pardon is open to interpretation & as such also becomes a matter of debate. 

Like Gen Choi, Dr Kim used TKD as a political tool. So have the govts of both Koreas. There is no doubt that the "nasty Korean politics" have played a role in the history of TKD & the context of the times its development took place in. Like all politics, it really often depends on where you stand in the mix, that often influences or even dictates one's response or take on what happened & why. 

What happened to Dr Kim was emblematic of what often happened to Gen Choi all throughout his lifetime career in promoting TKD both in Korea & around the world. There are many that simply resented any use of TKD in politics & using TKD as a political tool, even though some or many of the motives may have been noble. These feelings & perceptions will of course always be shaped by ones depth of knowledge, what side of the aisle or political divide they are on, how political or partisan they themselves are & how open their minds are to learn more, especially when it is complex & often boring, innate & esoteric details that I am sure no one ever joined TKD for.

What we can & should do is learn more, keep an open mind & give credit to people who deserve it, as it was their hard work that gave such a wonderful & positive activity to so many around the world. In essence they often made people's lives better, be it by learning to protect oneself, losing weight, winning competitions, building character & friendships etc. This is the way of the martial arts. While we are all less than perfect, (by definition we all are) we all deserve thanks & credit for the good that we all do. As the powers to be have their powers fade over time, (nasty Korean politics), which is inevitable, the motivations to slur & abilities to embellish are softened & people are more free & able to put forth more information. This is what is happening now & will continue to occur over the passage of time, especially when freedom of speech, of the press expands & more independent people, like historians are able to record minus the pressures & restrictions that were previously in place. This is true through out history with the recording of history. It is no different with TKD. 

What we can & should do as martial artists, is to both remain open minded & refrain from both impolite discourse & the my dad is better than your dad.


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## puunui (Jan 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont have a kukki cert and that doesnt worry me in the slightest. I can fully understand why it is important for some, especially if olympic sparring is your go. But for me, I am yet to hear of one reason why it would benefit me. If for some reason my club ceased to exist (which wont ever happen anyway), I would be more likely to go and find a hapkido club or ITF club to train at as they seem more similar to what I currently do. Because I dont know the taegeks or spar WTF style I would not head in the kukki direction anyway.




Is your teacher GM RHEE Chong Chul? If so, he might have been one of those that took Kukkiwon certification, but never made it to the third step to integrate his curriculum. If anything, he may have harbored hostility and resentment towards the Kukkiwon and WTF, for whatever reason, which apparently got passed down to his students.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Quote:
> While your point is true, I would like to say that what the Nazis did under Hitler was really unprecedented in history in depth & brutality.


 

This is not exactly true... all one need do is consider the slaughter of Jews by Lenin following the Russian Revolution of 1917, or the millions executed by Stalin during the purge that took place during the 1930's. I guess you can ignore what Mao did, since that took place after WWII.


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## sungjado (Jan 15, 2011)

Go back to the subject of this discourse and to the question first asked:
I hold a 5th Dan KKW and a 8th Dan Independent. I believe it is essential to have the KKW Dan certification if you have a competitive spirit and wish to compete in Olympic style TKD. 
But there are quite a few old-style TKD players who just train to train and for the warrior spirit. 
The main problem is that so many Grandmasters and Masters try to force their students to pay very large sums of money for the coveted KKW Dan rank. Most of these GM & M are just trying to get rich quick and do not instill discipline in their training, which leads to poorly developed black belts who succeed at scalping their students just like their instructor did to them.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is your teacher GM RHEE Chong Chul? If so, he might have been one of those that took Kukkiwon certification, but never made it to the third step to integrate his curriculum. If anything, he may have harbored hostility and resentment towards the Kukkiwon and WTF, for whatever reason, which apparently got passed down to his students.


No, I am not with rhee tkd. They are huge in australasia though, and have clubs all over the place and are very highly regarded and their students are of a high standard. His org just continues to grow, I cant drive 10 minutes in any direction without passing a rhee tkd sign. I have seen his students spar and was pretty sure they had nothing to do with kukki but wasnt sure.


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## puunui (Jan 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> No, I am not with rhee tkd. They are huge in australasia though, and have clubs all over the place and are very highly regarded and their students are of a high standard. His org just continues to grow, I cant drive 10 minutes in any direction without passing a rhee tkd sign. I have seen his students spar and was pretty sure they had nothing to do with kukki but wasnt sure.




I would ask you who your teacher is but you would have said already. So I guess we can let it remain the deep dark secret....


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 15, 2011)

I dont mention who my GM is only because I dont want anything I say being seen as a representation of him or his beliefs. He speaks very little english, does not jump on internet forums and he may not even appreciate the fact Im on here giving opinions that could be seen as representing his club. I hope you understand, its not that Im trying to be secretive or anything. I can say that he was one of the first GM's to bring tkd to australia and is very highly regarded in tkd circles, although has had nothing to do with the korean side of things since before I started training under him which was about 5 years ago. From what I understand, he ceased his involvement with the kukkiabout 15 years ago and after just reading about Rhee and his background they seem extremely similar, and probably know each other I would imagine.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 15, 2011)

lord grant me the strength to not post in this topic........


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Quote: While your point is true, I would like to say that what the Nazis did  under Hitler was really unprecedented in history in depth &  brutality.
_


Dirty Dog said:


> This is not exactly true... all one need do is consider the slaughter of Jews by Lenin following the Russian Revolution of 1917, or the millions executed by Stalin during the purge that took place during the 1930's. I guess you can ignore what Mao did, since that took place after WWII.


Why you dirty dog you are right! LOL!
I sit corrected. I was thinking more of what Hitler did led to the 2nd World War, which was so super bad.
Thank you for correcting me & I guess that sadly there are far to many examples of atrocities of such a mass extent, that I would imagine that it is too hard to even want to remember or reflect on such real human devastation that was so unnecessary.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

sungjado said:


> The main problem is that so many Grandmasters and Masters try to force their students to pay very large sums of money for the coveted KKW Dan rank. Most of these GM & M are just trying to get rich quick and do not instill discipline in their training, which leads to poorly developed black belts who succeed at scalping their students just like their instructor did to them.


While many do charge high test fees, the KKW Dan & Poom certification are very reasonable & I think has already been pointed out elsewhere here, that the prices have remained at a steady level for some time now.
So while the "get rich quick gang" can charge $1,000.00USD for a I Dan, they can still throw in the KKW certification, as it is probably less than $100 bucks!
Or if they don't want to lose the less than 10%, they can just tell any student who wishes one to pay the extra KKW fee.
But then again, maybe the members of the "gang" just don't want their students to know there is a world wide certificate from the world TKD academy, so it doesn't lead to questions about the worth of the in house or "gang" certificate.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is your teacher GM RHEE Chong Chul? If so, he might have been one of those that took Kukkiwon certification, but never made it to the third step to integrate his curriculum. If anything, he may have harbored hostility and resentment towards the Kukkiwon and WTF, for whatever reason, which apparently got passed down to his students.


There are many Original TKD Pioneers that have had their lives ruined to an extent, some more than others, by south Korea for their involvement with Gen Choi & the ITF. So it can be something that many can understand about harboring hostility & resentment. Thankfully those dark days are long behind us & south Korea is a thriving democracy today!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 16, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> lord grant me the strength to not post in this topic........


Too late.  You just did.

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 16, 2011)

Im curious to know if anybody knows the percentage of tkd clubs worlwide that are kukki affiliated. I know it would be too hard to get exact figures because there are literally tkd clubs all over the place but Id love to know a rough estimate taking into account all tkd clubs worlwide, how many actually have anything to do with the kukki.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im curious to know if anybody knows the percentage of tkd clubs worlwide that are kukki affiliated. I know it would be too hard to get exact figures because there are literally tkd clubs all over the place but Id love to know a rough estimate taking into account all tkd clubs worlwide, how many actually have anything to do with the kukki.


No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.
I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.

(Off note & more important, how is the flooding going? Is the water receding? It looks like such a terrible mess!)


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 16, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.
> I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.
> 
> (Off note & more important, how is the flooding going? Is the water receding? It looks like such a terrible mess!)


The water is slowly receding, but that is only the beginning. With the water gone it only starts to show just how big the clean up is going to be. The grim reality of what happenend is only just beginning to kick in for many. Its quite surreal, I live only a short distance from the worst of it and yet we didnt even get our feet wet. It is more a result of infrastructure than 'heaps of rain', basically anyone near the river will have big problems and unfortunately the heart of brisbane is based around the river. Ipswich and Toowoomba (2 cities just outside brisbane) have virtually been flattened and the full extent of the damage out there may still not be known. All of australia will join together and fix this, just as we did with the bushfires in victoria a few years ago. even the English cricket team who are touring here at the moment are doing what they can to help.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 16, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.
> I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.
> 
> (Off note & more important, how is the flooding going? Is the water receding? It looks like such a terrible mess!)


Back on topic. Its funny that to a lot of people who arent in the kukkiwon they dont even know it exists. Ive trained with 5th dans who have trained in tkd for 30 years and yet they had literally never heard of the kukkiwon until I mentioned it. An instructor I know (6th dan) recently went to korea (for non tkd reasons) and I asked if he visited the kukkiwon during his visit, his response was "what's a kukkiwon?".


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Back on topic. Its funny that to a lot of people who arent in the kukkiwon they dont even know it exists. Ive trained with 5th dans who have trained in tkd for 30 years and yet they had literally never heard of the kukkiwon until I mentioned it. An instructor I know (6th dan) recently went to korea (for non tkd reasons) and I asked if he visited the kukkiwon during his visit, his response was "what's a kukkiwon?".




Sounds like the people you hang out with need to get out more often. Perhaps living in a bubble or a cult like atmosphere is exactly what their instructors wanted, so they wouldn't have to explain what the Kukkiwon was and/or give their students Kukkiwon certification. You say your nameless instructor has about 4000 active students, so I would think that perhaps he has given out 1000 1st dan in his lifetime. At $70 per, that's US$70,000 that your instructor pocketed over the years by issuing his own dojang certification instead of promoting through the Kukkiwon, more if you include higher dan ranks.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> There are many Original TKD Pioneers that have had their lives ruined to an extent, some more than others, by south Korea for their involvement with Gen Choi & the ITF.




How were the original Taekwondo pioneers' lives ruined? Wait, on second thought, don't answer. If I have to read the phrase "nasty korean politics" from you one more time, I might end up killing myself. 

And by the way, according to General Choi, the original Taekwondo pioneers, seem to have been the Okinawan practitioners who created the Okinawan kata.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Sounds like the people you hang out with need to get out more often. Perhaps living in a bubble or a cult like atmosphere is exactly what their instructors wanted, so they wouldn't have to explain what the Kukkiwon was and/or give their students Kukkiwon certification. You say your nameless instructor has about 4000 active students, so I would think that perhaps he has given out 1000 1st dan in his lifetime. At $70 per, that's US$70,000 that your instructor pocketed over the years by issuing his own dojang certification instead of promoting through the Kukkiwon, more if you include higher dan ranks.


Honestly, until I started coming to this forum I had no idea what the kukkiwon was. I dont see it as 'living in a cult like atmosphere', I see it as a lot of people join a martial arts club to train, they dont care about all the governing bodies and such. These people have normal lives and jobs and families and after work a few nights a week they go and participatein a tkd class to get fit and learn some self defence. They really couldnt care less about a governing body, particularly a governing body that plays no part in their club. Its just like I dont do BJJ (for instance), so I really dont know or care about the politics or governing bodies in that art because it doesnt affect me. I have asked instructors at my club about the kukkiwon and the ones who know what it is are more than happy to discuss it and certainly dont sit there slagging it off, its just that we arent kukki, we dont use the kukki forms, we dont spar like kukki clubs and so forth so our students have no need for having a kukki cert. My old instructor told me if I wanted a kukki cert for my first dan he could get one for me but I really didnt see the point. Its not that they have anything against the kukki, its just not the 'style' they teach, it would be like an ITF guy being offered a kukki cert, there just wouldnt be any point. Its only the people like me who have too much time on my hands and sit on tkd forums who find out what a kukkiwon even is. You have to remember that in my local area the 3 biggest clubs (probably totalling in excess of 12000 students combined) are all not kukki clubs, the kukki clubs in my area would not even total 1000 students if they were all combined, so kukki certs are not that big a deal. Its not that they are being 'secretive' about the kukki, its just that the kukki iseems a small org in our area compared to the local clubs.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> How were the original Taekwondo pioneers' lives ruined? Wait, on second thought, don't answer. If I have to read the phrase "nasty korean politics" from you one more time, I might end up killing myself.
> And by the way, according to General Choi, the original Taekwondo pioneers, seem to have been the Okinawan practitioners who created the Okinawan kata.


Well sir I do see that it appears that you are apparently becoming less interested or capable of entering or continuing a dialogue. But yes there are numerous original TKD Pioneers that have been coming forward with details of what they were subjected to by the KCIA. You see the use of the KCIA around the world in the west was not limited to just TKD men. The KCIA was known as a brutal national agency that had a strong international part that operated fairly easy in the west, as south Korea was aligned with the west & as a result had Embassies & Consulates throughout the world where Korean Ex-Pats, including lived. Speak to members of your own national agency, the FBI & the section that works that end. They will confirm how bad it was. It is easy to research. The KCIA was eventually renamed the NIS, National Intelligence Service to get away from the connection to their terrinle reputation, especially during the days of the brutal military dictatorships.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.



Not in my neighborhood. Here, the overwhelming majority are Kukkiwon certified and do the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae of the Kukkiwon. We also consistently produce junior and senior national medalists as well as team members, since the 70's. We have also won our share of medals at WTF International Events, as well as two Olympic coaches. Goes to show what you can do, if you put your mind to it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Not in my neighborhood. Here, the overwhelming majority are Kukkiwon certified and do the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae of the Kukkiwon. We also consistently produce junior and senior national medalists as well as team members, since the 70's. We have also won our share of medals at WTF International Events, as well as two Olympic coaches. Goes to show what you can do, if you put your mind to it.


Just curious, what are the yudanja poomsae? Ive seen taegeks but I havent heard of the yudanja ones. Id be interested to know what the breakdown of tkd clubs in Australia are. 'Sport' tkd has become quite popular and the AIS provides funding and training to our tkd athletes. When lauren burns won gold at the sydney olympics it was all the rage and I do know of quite a few sport clubs. It seems, however, that the big clubs that everyone knows about are independent clubs, but there are a lot of little clubs (50 students or less) that display the WTF logo. In saying that, I can only comment on my local area, but I know the big independent clubs have classes all over the country (or at least the east coast). Do you guys know of any successful Australian tkdists? I assume we have some, ryan carnelli (?) seems to ring a bell.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just curious, what are the yudanja poomsae? Ive seen taegeks but I havent heard of the yudanja ones.



The normal Kukkiwon black belt series (Yudanja means black belt holder) - Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, etc...


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The normal Kukkiwon black belt series (Yudanja means black belt holder) - Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, etc...


Oh, they are the same ones we do. I hadnt heard them referred to as that before. I am currently doing keum gang in preparation for 2nd dan, would that be the same form Id be doing in a kukki school?


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## andyjeffries (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Oh, they are the same ones we do. I hadnt heard them referred to as that before. I am currently doing keum gang in preparation for 2nd dan, would that be the same form Id be doing in a kukki school?



Hard to tell without seeing your version, but if I had to bet money I'd say yes.

This is the version of Keumgang from the most recent Kukkiwon 6 DVD set.

Good luck for your upcoming 2nd Dan!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Not in my neighborhood. Here, the overwhelming majority are Kukkiwon certified and do the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae of the Kukkiwon. We also consistently produce junior and senior national medalists as well as team members, since the 70's. We have also won our share of medals at WTF International Events, as well as two Olympic coaches. Goes to show what you can do, if you put your mind to it.


Probably depends on location. Around my county, Kukki schools are the hightest in number, followed fairly closely by independents.  There is only one ITF school that I can think of off the top of my head and no ATA schools.  I don't think there are even any ITA schools in the state and definitely none in my area.  I think that a lot has to do with who established themselves in an area early on.  Jhoon Rhee is a pretty big deal in Montgomery County, Frederick County, and in Northern Virginia.  But he's been cultivating schools in the region for like forty years.  

I could probably come up with no fewer than ten KKW schools and probably six or seven other indepenents besides Jhoon Rhee off the top of my head.  

Daniel


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 17, 2011)

2 ATA, 1 ATA breakaway doing the current formset, 1 ITA breakaway and me.  No WTF or ITF in town.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> 2 ATA, 1 ATA breakaway doing the current formset, 1 ITA breakaway and me. No WTF or ITF in town.


Aren't you an ATA breakaway as well?  Maybe not, but that was the impression that I got from previous posts. 

Daniel


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No I always heard that the WTF/KKW was much bigger than the ITF & I think it is, but that the independents far outweighed them all & put together.


 
There probably really is no way to tell which governing body is bigger, but if I had to _guess_ I'd agree that it's probably the independents. There are many schools where the instructor is either certified by the ITF or the KKW but the students are not. There are many schools that aren't certified by either body.  

One of the problems with coming up with even an estimate of who has more is the propensity many people have of extrapolating anecdotal evidence into a worldwide generalization. Not a lot of ITF schools here in the U.S., for instance, but go to Poland, the Czech Republic, or Argentina and they're quite common (and produce top notch competitors, too). But do those countries mean that the ITF is bigger than KKW or even independents? And just because I grew up in an area where there were very few KKW school doesn't mean anything when it comes to determining who popular they are on a country or even world wide level. 



> I remember reading a study somewhere that had the USTF, the ITF NGB having around 10,000 members & the USTU, the WTF NGB having some 20,000+ subscriptions that it sent to its registered members. Those numbers paled in comparison to an extrapolation to the independent number estimate.


 
I'd be interested in seeing that study. One of the things that limits it, of course, is that it relies on numbers of enrolled members in the respective NGB's. While this is good to give a ball park figure I wouldn't make too much of it. IIRC, there was nothing mandating membership in the USTU for KKW certified people. Additionally, you don't mention the KATU membership which was a second ITF body. There were always some people in the U.S. (and otehr places, I'm sure) that were members of the ITF but not of the USTF (or of KATU). 

Additionally, both the ITF and the KKW only certify black belts. The best one could hope for would be an accurate count of yudanja (and given the stateof the ITF that's not going to happen for them). But if you want accurate numbers shouldn't you include color belts? And if so, do you include 10th gups even if they've only been training one night? 

Lots of problems trying to just get a head count.

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Probably depends on location.




In my location, back in the 70's when Taekwondo really started taking off, there were many more Kukkiwon certified instructors than not. There was one ITF instructor, but he ended up getting murdered. He was then replaced by another ITF instructor, who built up the program to the point where he became our state president because he had the most students. In the 80's, most of the instructors retired or moved away, including the ITF instructor, and taekwondo fell off. In the 90's, the ITF instructor returned and once again became our state president and I served as his secretary general. Around this time, GM Dae Sung LEE moved back to Hawaii after teaching at OTC for six years. We invited everyone to our meetings, whether tang soo do, ITF, everyone, offered them Kukkiwon certification, as well as training in modern training methods, for free. There were some hard feelings between certain individuals, but that worked itself out over time. Now the overwhelming majority from that period are Kukkiwon certified and practicing the Taeguek poomsae. So the pioneer's methodology worked, at least here. 

Now there are people moving from other places and bringing their unique perspective into the mix. One guy, an ITF offshoot practitioner, calls his school "Traditional Taekwon-Do". His school is right down the road from my house. They wear cross over uniforms and practice non-contact sparring with face punching allowed and also do the Chang Hon forms. He showed up to our state championships recently and his comment was "How come the coaches aren't wearing uniforms?" 

I think the probability of bringing him into the fold is extremely low.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

I just came back from Hawaii on New Years Eve.  I spent about two weeks in Kona and stayed in Kailua Kona, about ten minutes from Keahole airport.  Gotta say, the island was probably the most beautiful place I have ever seen!

Anyway, I travelled about the island while I was there and was disappointed that I did not see a single KMA dojang.  I only saw two dojos period, one of which was in a barn and the other of which was renting space atop an old theatre.  Both were in fairly isolated places, and both were kenpo.  I was unable to visit either.

Loved the island and I was in coffee heaven!

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

Kona side is more mainland transplants who do their own thing. Not much Taekwondo on that side, although I want to say there was one ITF style school there. There was a Korean born master who taught for many years in Hilo, but he retired a while back. His brother was a red belt under GM LEE Won Kuk and he studied at the Chung Do Kwan under GM Uhm and GM Park during the 60's. He used to tell me all kinds of stories about that era and also the early struggles of the sabum in Hawaii during the very early 70's, when he first moved here. During one visit, he pulled out GM LEE Won Kuk's book and when he saw how interested I was in it, he told me to keep it, just like that, without me asking.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

Unfortunately, I didn't go into Hilo except to get gasoline.  We had visited a rainforest not far away and had another engagement that prevented me from exploring beyond fuel.  Next time I go back I'd like to visit Hilo.

I did go into Waimea and found a Korean restaurant, so I was able to have my weekly bulgogi and kimchi.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Unfortunately, I didn't go into Hilo except to get gasoline.  We had visited a rainforest not far away and had another engagement that prevented me from exploring beyond fuel.  Next time I go back I'd like to visit Hilo.




The instructor who gave me GM Lee's book retired, but I think his son still teaches somewhere. Hilo is more of a MMA town now because BJ Penn has a gym there. There is also a Taekwondo and Hapkido school, but I don't know who they are. But I think Hilo has more martial arts than Kona. There are other martial arts as well, Aikido and others if you are interested in that.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Hard to tell without seeing your version, but if I had to bet money I'd say yes.
> 
> This is the version of Keumgang from the most recent Kukkiwon 6 DVD set.
> 
> Good luck for your upcoming 2nd Dan!


Thanks for the link. That looks very similar to the way we do it. We wait 2 years between first and second dan (is that the same as kukki tkd?), so I still have about a year or so of training before my 2nd dan test.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> There probably really is no way to tell which governing body is bigger, but if I had to _guess_ I'd agree that it's probably the independents. There are many schools where the instructor is either certified by the ITF or the KKW but the students are not. There are many schools that aren't certified by either body.


Yes & another way to do it is to look at the world championships, with the WTF always at least after their 1st few, have yielded more players from more countries. Another problem is identifying independents, ITFers & WTFers. For me to be an ITF school, you have to be registered, using correct dobok, up to date in technical proficiency & issued ITF certificates. That is a high burden or many things to meet. How do you do it for the WTF? I guess it is where doboks & have KKW certificates. But that is a lower threshold than the ITF. Some incorrectly call some indies ITF because they do the Chon Ji form set, even if they do them karate like wearing Gis.  




chrispillertkd said:


> One of the things that limits it, of course, is that it relies on numbers of enrolled members in the respective NGB's. While this is good to give a ball park figure I wouldn't make too much of it. IIRC, there was nothing mandating membership in the USTU for KKW certified people. Additionally, you don't mention the KATU membership which was a second ITF body. There were always some people in the U.S. (and otehr places, I'm sure) that were members of the ITF but not of the USTF (or of KATU).
> Additionally, both the ITF and the KKW only certify black belts. The best one could hope for would be an accurate count of yudanja (and given the stateof the ITF that's not going to happen for them). But if you want accurate numbers shouldn't you include color belts? And if so, do you include 10th gups even if they've only been training one night?
> Lots of problems trying to just get a head count.


These are all good reasons why comparing numbers is problematic. But what else do we have? It is difficult to say the least.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Oh, they are the same ones we do. I hadnt heard them referred to as that before. I am currently doing keum gang in preparation for 2nd dan, would that be the same form Id be doing in a kukki school?



What forms do color belts learn at your school?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> What forms do color belts learn at your school?


Coloured belts do palgwes 1-8. At black belts gradings they call a palgwe form (you dont know which they will call) and you do that, plus previous form plus current form. Constant revision of the palgwe set is required so black belts can adequetely assist in teaching the palgwes to coloured belts.


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## Miles (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Coloured belts do palgwes 1-8. At black belts gradings they call a palgwe form (you dont know which they will call) and you do that, plus previous form plus current form. Constant revision of the palgwe set is required so black belts can adequetely assist in teaching the palgwes to coloured belts.



If you are 1st dan and your required poomsae for 2nd dan is Keum-gang, did you learn Koryo?  If so, was it part of your test for 1st dan?  Or is in addition to Keum-gang for 2nd?


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Coloured belts do palgwes 1-8. At black belts gradings they call a palgwe form (you dont know which they will call) and you do that, plus previous form plus current form. Constant revision of the palgwe set is required so black belts can adequetely assist in teaching the palgwes to coloured belts.




What about the Taeguek poomsae? If those are not done, do you know why?


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## Miles (Jan 17, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> There probably really is no way to tell which governing body is bigger, but if I had to _guess_ I'd agree that it's probably the independents. There are many schools where the instructor is either certified by the ITF or the KKW but the students are not. There are many schools that aren't certified by either body.
> 
> 
> Lots of problems trying to just get a head count.
> ...



If I had to guess, I'd say it would be those certified by the Kukkiwon.  I'd start counting the folks in S. Korea.  In the home of TKD, nearly everyone has trained in TKD and they are only certified by the Kukkiwon.  There may be more Taekwondoin in Korea than the rest of the world combined.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

Miles said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say it would be those certified by the Kukkiwon.  I'd start counting the folks in S. Korea.  In the home of TKD, nearly everyone has trained in TKD and they are only certified by the Kukkiwon.  There may be more Taekwondoin in Korea than the rest of the world combined.


Yes this is true. But also do not discount that in the northern half of Korea it is 100% ITF TKD. There is no WTF or Kukki TKD there. They have a significant TKD program, modeled after the eastern European, soviet bloc that identified early on talented TKDin, where they groom them all the way to the top.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

Miles said:


> If you are 1st dan and your required poomsae for 2nd dan is Keum-gang, did you learn Koryo?  If so, was it part of your test for 1st dan?  Or is in addition to Keum-gang for 2nd?


Yes we learn koryo at black belt. Our belt order is a little different to some in that we go from 3rd red belt (1st gup) to black belt (no dan, like a probationary black belt, although it is a black belt with no stripe), and then to 1st dan when we receive the first of our dan certificates and are given our dan number and a stripe on the belt. So in a round about way 1st dan is actually the second black belt along the way. We train for one year between black and 1st dan, 2years from 1st to 2nd, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd etc. From what I understand we do the same order of poomsae as kukki clubs once black belt. Koryo, then keum gang, then teabek(?) etc.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

Miles said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say it would be those certified by the Kukkiwon.  I'd start counting the folks in S. Korea.  In the home of TKD, nearly everyone has trained in TKD and they are only certified by the Kukkiwon.  There may be more Taekwondoin in Korea than the rest of the world combined.


are there no independent tkd clubs in south korea?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> What about the Taeguek poomsae? If those are not done, do you know why?


We do not do the taeguek poomsae at all, in fact the only time I have seen them is at demos in my local area by kukki clubs. I know our GM does not like them at all, he knows them but did not want to swap from the palgwes as he is a big fan of the palgwe set and didnt want to stop teaching palgwes. An instructor I know who knows the taegueks has told me he prefers to teach the palgwes because they are harder to learn and the taegeks are easier. He said the taegeks are better for kids because they are a lot easier to learn but believes the kids should do the same forms as the adults. This is obviously just heresay because I dont know the taegeks, but students who have swapped over to our club from kukki clubs (and there are many of them) have commented on how much more difficult the palgwes are to learn. Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?


The Palgwes were finished around the mid 1960s. In the early 1970s, that same committee, plus others from the JDK & MDK created the Taegueks, which were finished around 1972. Not sure when the official swap, if any was ever done.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> are there no independent tkd clubs in south korea?


This is not so cut & dry. I think that to have a TKD school, one needs to have a KKW License in south Korea. TKD there is oversen by the KKW. Other martial arts are overseen by different entities. This even presents a problem with ITF dojangs there. One way some of them get around it is that many of them already are licensed by the KKW & they add the ITF program. The ITF is very, very small & weak, with only a few clubs scattered around the whole country.
Of course in north Korea, ITF is 100%, with no WTF at all. In fact the DRP Korea is 1 of the few remaining listed UN countries that is not a national member of the WTF. This is absolutely the result again of the nasty Korean politics.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> are there no independent tkd clubs in south korea?



no.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?




I want to say 1995. Or earlier.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> The Palgwes were finished around the mid 1960s. In the early 1970s, that same committee, plus others from the JDK & MDK created the Taegueks, which were finished around 1972. Not sure when the official swap, if any was ever done.




The Palgwae poomsae and Yudanja poomsae were finished in 1968. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 was completed in 1972. If you are going to parrot me, at least do so accurately.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> TKD there is oversen by the KKW.




Taekwondo in South Korea is governed and "overseen" by the Korea Taekwondo Association, not the Kukkiwon.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> This even presents a problem with ITF dojangs there. One way some of them get around it is that many of them already are licensed by the KKW & they add the ITF program. The ITF is very, very small & weak, with only a few clubs scattered around the whole country.




I have a book about the ITF in South Korea. It is a 340 page book, and the first 240 or so pages basically compare the ITF and WTF, as well as add in some of the standard ITF history and photos.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> I want to say 1995. Or earlier.


So in the 70's and 80's did they teach both palgwes and taegeks, or was it a transitional time to phase out the palgwes? Also, why did they see the need to get rid of the palgwes? Do any kukki schools still teach both sets or will the palgwes, with time, just disappear? Do you know both sets?, If so, what do you consider to be the strong/weak points of both?


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> So in the 70's and 80's did they teach both palgwes and taegeks, or was it a transitional time to phase out the palgwes? Also, why did they see the need to get rid of the palgwes? Do any kukki schools still teach both sets or will the palgwes, with time, just disappear? Do you know both sets?, If so, what do you consider to be the strong/weak points of both?




What happened was the the 1975 Kukkiwon Textbook listed the Palgwae poomsae as primary and the Taeguek poomsae as supplemental. The 1987 and 1995 edition reversed this, making the Taeguek poomsae primary and the Palgwae poomsae supplemental. The 2005 edition eliminated the Palgwae poomsae completely. I asked why they got rid of the Palgwae poomsae and forget the exact answer, but it was something along the lines of they were transitional and now obsolete and unnecessary. Many dojang still teach both, but the direction has been to teach the Taeguek poomsae for color belts and the Palgwae poomsae as supplemental training and curriculum for poom and dan holders. I used to know both sets but now I only practice the Taeguek poomsae. I don't analyze poomsae in terms of strong or weak points; I just do them because they are there. But I would say that the strong point of the Taeguek poomsae is that it is the recognized form now for Kukki Taekwondo and it is becoming the worldwide standard. If you go to a Kukkiwon Instructor Course for example, they will take you through the Taeguek poomsae. Palgwae is the opposite in that its weakness is that it is being phased out. You cannot use them at USAT events for example nor at WTF poomsae competition. My teacher invented Palgwae 3 and 8 and he told me to stop practicing the Palgwae poomsae.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

Also Ralph, the Koryo that you do, is the floor pattern straight up and down in a single line, or are their branches? There are two versions of Koryo. The one most people do is the second version. You might be doing the first version. A friend of mine from Australia said he still does Koryo 1, in addition to Koryo 2.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Taekwondo in South Korea is governed and "overseen" by the Korea Taekwondo Association, not the Kukkiwon.


Yes & don't you need a license from the KKW? Aren't the black belt certificates needed also issued by the KKW at tests given at the KKW by regions on a regular basis?
That is what I meant, as doesn't the KTA follow the KKW?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> I asked why they got rid of the Palgwae poomsae and forget the exact answer, but it was something along the lines of they were transitional and now obsolete and unnecessary.


Wasn't part of a stated reason that the committee that created the Taegueks included the MDK & JDK representatives, thus making it easier for unification?
I have also heard that the Palgwes were also still considered too karate.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> I have a book about the ITF in South Korea. It is a 340 page book, and the first 240 or so pages basically compare the ITF and WTF, as well as add in some of the standard ITF history and photos.


Is this book in Korean?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Also Ralph, the Koryo that you do, is the floor pattern straight up and down in a single line, or are their branches? There are two versions of Koryo. The one most people do is the second version. You might be doing the first version. A friend of mine from Australia said he still does Koryo 1, in addition to Koryo 2.


This is the one we do


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 18, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes this is true. But also do not discount that in the northern half of Korea it is 100% ITF TKD. There is no WTF or Kukki TKD there. They have a significant TKD program, modeled after the eastern European, soviet bloc that identified early on talented TKDin, where they groom them all the way to the top.


 
True enough, but the population of North Korea is roughly 25 million, while South Korea is roughly 50...


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Wasn't part of a stated reason that the committee that created the Taegueks included the MDK & JDK representatives, thus making it easier for unification?
> I have also heard that the Palgwes were also still considered too karate.


It could make sense that they are 'too karate'. I did shotokan as a kid and 20 years later when I started tkd I took to the palgwes like a fish to water, they just felt natural.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> What happened was the the 1975 Kukkiwon Textbook listed the Palgwae poomsae as primary and the Taeguek poomsae as supplemental. The 1987 and 1995 edition reversed this, making the Taeguek poomsae primary and the Palgwae poomsae supplemental. The 2005 edition eliminated the Palgwae poomsae completely. I asked why they got rid of the Palgwae poomsae and forget the exact answer, but it was something along the lines of they were transitional and now obsolete and unnecessary. Many dojang still teach both, but the direction has been to teach the Taeguek poomsae for color belts and the Palgwae poomsae as supplemental training and curriculum for poom and dan holders. I used to know both sets but now I only practice the Taeguek poomsae. I don't analyze poomsae in terms of strong or weak points; I just do them because they are there. But I would say that the strong point of the Taeguek poomsae is that it is the recognized form now for Kukki Taekwondo and it is becoming the worldwide standard. If you go to a Kukkiwon Instructor Course for example, they will take you through the Taeguek poomsae. Palgwae is the opposite in that its weakness is that it is being phased out. You cannot use them at USAT events for example nor at WTF poomsae competition. My teacher invented Palgwae 3 and 8 and he told me to stop practicing the Palgwae poomsae.


Thats interesting that your teacher invented palgwe 3 and 8, I love palgwe 8, it would be my favourite (closely followed by 7), it was the one they called for me to do at my 1st dan grading along with koryo. According to a 7th dan at our club, our GM had a close relationship (could have been his instructor) with the guy who invented some palgwes. Was there more than one person invoved in the invention of the palgwes?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> We do not do the taeguek poomsae at all, in fact the only time I have seen them is at demos in my local area by kukki clubs. I know our GM does not like them at all, he knows them but did not want to swap from the palgwes as he is a big fan of the palgwe set and didnt want to stop teaching palgwes. An instructor I know who knows the taegueks has told me he prefers to teach the palgwes because they are harder to learn and the taegeks are easier. He said the taegeks are better for kids because they are a lot easier to learn but believes the kids should do the same forms as the adults. This is obviously just heresay because I dont know the taegeks, but students who have swapped over to our club from kukki clubs (and there are many of them) have commented on how much more difficult the palgwes are to learn. Just a question, when did the kukki cease to teach the palgwe set in favour of the taegueks?


 
This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.


Thats interesting, Ive heard a few instructors say that they felt by introducing the taegueks they were 'dumbing things down' because they were easier than the palgwes. Not knowing the taegueks myself I havent known whether to believe this, but Im starting to hear more and more people say the taegueks are easier.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thanks for the link. That looks very similar to the way we do it. We wait 2 years between first and second dan (is that the same as kukki tkd?)



No, under the Kukkiwon regulations it's 1 year between first and second.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Our belt order is a little different to some in that we go from 3rd red belt (1st gup) to black belt (no dan, like a probationary black belt, although it is a black belt with no stripe), and then to 1st dan when we receive the first of our dan certificates and are given our dan number and a stripe on the belt.



The Kukkiwon Textbook makes a single reference to Cho Dan Bo (probationary black belt) but I've never heard of it in a dojang in England.



ralphmcpherson said:


> So in a round about way 1st dan is actually the second black belt along the way. We train for one year between black and 1st dan, 2years from 1st to 2nd, 3 years from 2nd to 3rd etc.



The Kukkiwon timings are the other way, you wait the number of years for the grade you are not the grade you're going for.



ralphmcpherson said:


> From what I understand we do the same order of poomsae as kukki clubs once black belt. Koryo, then keum gang, then teabek(?) etc.



Very cool.  The Palgwae poomsae are shown on the Kukki-Taekwondo 2 DVD set* from (I believe) the 90s.  I must have a bit more of a look in them, they do seem quite cool.

* The DVDs look like this


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> No, under the Kukkiwon regulations it's 1 year between first and second.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We actually refer to our black belts as "cho dan bo" and 1st dans as 'cho dan', I looked up the meaning one time of cho dan bo and it meant something like 'the grade below 1st degree black belt' which had me confused as they were wearing a black belts but referred to as a cho dan bo. I asked about this and was told that our black belts are basically a probationary black belt and then after 1 years further training they get their first dan. The palgwes are cool and are worth learning if you have the time. They have long deep stances as opposed to the shorter stances Ive noticed in the taegueks. Palgwe 7 and 8 are good fun.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Was there more than one person invoved in the invention of the palgwes?


Yes I think GM Park Han Mae was instrumental. He is a recogonized expert on the forms. Some others may have been GMs Hyun Jong Myung & Kwak Kun Sik, all 3 were CDK. GMs Kim Soon Bae & Li Yong Sup also contributed. Not sure if there were more.
Then when the MDK joined in the unification efforts of the KTA after they split from GM Hwang Kee, the founder, Han Yong Tae, his student worked with GMs Lee Chong Woo (who may have been chair) & Bae Young Ki (both of the JDK). These additional 3 men, along with the Palgwe creators, made up the Taeguek committee in the early 1970s.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.


So you know 3 sets of patterns?
Why do you say the Chang Hon Tuls are the hardest to learn?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The palgwes are cool and are worth learning if you have the time. They have long deep stances as opposed to the shorter stances Ive noticed in the taegueks. Palgwe 7 and 8 are good fun.


From my understanding the shorter stances are a way that they are distinguished from karate & more reflective of the upright positions for the kicking emphasis, which TKD is known for.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 18, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> So you know 3 sets of patterns?
> Why do you say the Chang Hon Tuls are the hardest to learn?


 
I don't know them all well enough to perform at a poomse competition, but I'm working on it. 
I would say the Chang Hon forms are hardest to learn for several reasons. Start with the fact that there are more of them (24, vs 8 Palgwe or Taegeuk, plus the 9 BB forms) and then consider their length; up to 68 steps, vs the 20-30 in the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomse. And I personally have always found the combinations to be more difficult to execute properly, especially some of the slow, balance moves seen in the Chang Hon tul.

I think that the Chang Hon forms are more "complete" in that there are a wider range of techniques used than in either of the other sets. The Palgwe forms, for example, don't include something as basic to TKD as a roundhouse kick.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> We actually refer to our black belts as "cho dan bo" and 1st dans as 'cho dan', I looked up the meaning one time of cho dan bo and it meant something like 'the grade below 1st degree black belt' which had me confused as they were wearing a black belts but referred to as a cho dan bo. I asked about this and was told that our black belts are basically a probationary black belt and then after 1 years further training they get their first dan.



That fits with what I read in the Kukkiwon Textbook, but as I said it's one reference on a single page to Cho Dan Bo and is never mentioned anywhere else official from the Kukkiwon I could find (websites, other books, etc).



ralphmcpherson said:


> The palgwes are cool and are worth learning if you have the time. They have long deep stances as opposed to the shorter stances Ive noticed in the taegueks. Palgwe 7 and 8 are good fun.



If I did them, I'd likely use the more Kukkiwon-standard stances - the reason is that I'm still concentrating on adjusting my stances to be Kukkiwon-standard so I don't want to have to try to remember two different ways.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> That fits with what I read in the Kukkiwon Textbook, but as I said it's one reference on a single page to Cho Dan Bo and is never mentioned anywhere else official from the Kukkiwon I could find (websites, other books, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> If I did them, I'd likely use the more Kukkiwon-standard stances - the reason is that I'm still concentrating on adjusting my stances to be Kukkiwon-standard so I don't want to have to try to remember two different ways.


are they different stances or different ways of doing the same stance? The shorter stances Ive seen in taegeks (and I really have seen very little of them) appear to look like a 'short front stance' as seen in palgwe 8 for instance. Is a 'new' kukkiwon front stance (for instance) different to the 'old' front stance the way they used to do it or do the new forms just have more 'short front stances' and less long front stances?


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## andyjeffries (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> are they different stances or different ways of doing the same stance? The shorter stances Ive seen in taegeks (and I really have seen very little of them) appear to look like a 'short front stance' as seen in palgwe 8 for instance. Is a 'new' kukkiwon front stance (for instance) different to the 'old' front stance the way they used to do it or do the new forms just have more 'short front stances' and less long front stances?



Errr, the stances known as ap seogi and ap kubi seogi are done correctly much narrower (ap seogi has the insides of the heels on the same line, ap kubi seogi has one fist width between the heels width-wise) than we were originally taught.  So while there aren't new stances, the way they are done is different.

Having just watched Palgwae 8 performed by GM Lee Chong Kwan, he seems to do them with modern ap kubi seogi.

Having watched a senior one the whole way through - they look very weird to me.  Some very strange movements such as the over the shoulder punches and rising elbows (when the hands are in knifehand).  Maybe unusual is a better word than weird...


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## dancingalone (Jan 18, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is true of the dojang where I train. Everybody learns the Palgwe poomse, though any who are interested can also learn the Taegeuks. I would agree that the Taegeuk are the easiest to learn, with Palgwe being more difficult, and Chang Hon being harder still. I've never tried to learn the Song Am or Pyung Ahn so I have no idea where they fit.



The Songahm patterns are more challenging physically than Chang Hon or Palgwe.  They are longer and they have many more kicks, including jumping ones, having been intentionally designed for such.


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## dancingalone (Jan 18, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Having watched a senior one the whole way through - they look very weird to me.  Some very strange movements such as the over the shoulder punches and rising elbows (when the hands are in knifehand).  Maybe unusual is a better word than weird...



In karate, the over-the-shoulder punch isn't a punch at all except at the beginner 'teach the pattern' level.  It's generally interpreted as a throw.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't know them all well enough to perform at a poomse competition, but I'm working on it.
> I would say the Chang Hon forms are hardest to learn for several reasons. Start with the fact that there are more of them (24, vs 8 Palgwe or Taegeuk, plus the 9 BB forms) and then consider their length; up to 68 steps, vs the 20-30 in the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomse. And I personally have always found the combinations to be more difficult to execute properly, especially some of the slow, balance moves seen in the Chang Hon tul.
> 
> I think that the Chang Hon forms are more "complete" in that there are a wider range of techniques used than in either of the other sets. The Palgwe forms, for example, don't include something as basic to TKD as a roundhouse kick.


 Thank you & there is 1 of the last patterns to be added that actually has 72 steps or counts. It is  5th Dan Tul named So San, named after a famous Korean warrior monk who was actually 72 years young when he rallied people to fight & repel a Japanese invasion.


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## dancingalone (Jan 18, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Thank you & there is 1 of the last patterns to be added that actually has 72 steps or counts. It is  5th Dan Tul named So San, named after a famous Korean warrior monk who was actually 72 years young when he rallied people to fight & repel a Japanese invasion.



Not trying to play oneupsmanship, but if anyone is interested, the Songahm form for 1st black "decided" called "Shim Jun" has 81 steps to it.  The high dan hyung are considerably longer and are at least as difficult physically if not more so as Moon Moo in Chang Hon.

I would rate the *colored* belt TKD forms sets in this order from toughest to easiest from an athletic standpoint.  

1. Songahm
2. Pyung Ahn Chodan - Ohdan 
2. Chang Hon 
4. Palgwe
5. Tae Geuk


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> According to a 7th dan at our club, our GM had a close relationship (could have been his instructor) with the guy who invented some palgwes. Was there more than one person invoved in the invention of the palgwes?




What is the name of the gentleman who your instructor knew who created some of the Palgwae poomsae?


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Very cool.  The Palgwae poomsae are shown on the Kukki-Taekwondo 2 DVD set* from (I believe) the 90s.  I must have a bit more of a look in them, they do seem quite cool.* The DVDs look like this




There is an issue with the way GM LEE Chong Kwan does the Palgwae poomsae. Specifically in Palgwae 1 Jang, the second movement shown is an in out middle block, while others do that particular movement as an out in middle block.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats interesting, Ive heard a few instructors say that they felt by introducing the taegueks they were 'dumbing things down' because they were easier than the palgwes.




I wonder how easier the Taeguek poomsae are, because seems like a lot of practitioners have difficulty adapting to the shorter walking stance. Outside of that, any ease between the Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae is small. To me, they are both relatively easy form sets, and in fact have many of the same movements.


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## d1jinx (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> I want to say 1995. Or earlier.


 
I started TKD in Jan 87.  I learned Taegueks.  They were calling them the "new" forms and most were learning them also (higher ranks + fellow instructors + school Owners).

Funny, cause alot of people learned the other forms first then converted over... I learned these first, then during my Travels when i left for the military, I Learned some of the others ( ITF, ATA)... yet I never learned the Palgwe.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes & don't you need a license from the KKW? Aren't the black belt certificates needed also issued by the KKW at tests given at the KKW by regions on a regular basis?bThat is what I meant, as doesn't the KTA follow the KKW?




The KTA governs Taekwondo in South Korea. It really is that simple.


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## d1jinx (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> I wonder how easier the Taeguek poomsae are, because seems like a lot of practitioners have difficulty adapting to the shorter walking stance. Outside of that, any ease between the Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae is small. To me, they are both relatively easy form sets, and in fact have many of the same movements.


 

Not sure if true or opinion, but 1 Korean Master I used to know used to Laugh and not teach Taegueks... cause he said they were "children forms"  "designed for school children".

I heard a few other Koreans say the same thing, but I really dont know if it's true or the original Intent of the Taeguek forms.... Or just a big-ole-glass-o-hater-aide...


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think that the Chang Hon forms are more "complete" in that there are a wider range of techniques used than in either of the other sets. The Palgwe forms, for example, don't include something as basic to TKD as a roundhouse kick.




The Kukkiwon poomsae weren't designed or intended to present a balance between hand and leg techniques. Neither are the Okinawan kata upon which the Kukkiwon poomsae were based. Instead, what the pioneers decided was to emphasize kicking during kyorugi, and emphasize hand movements in poomsae. This is similar to the umyang symbol, where there each side has a large portion and a smaller tail circling each other. In sparring, the large portion is kicking, with a smaller amount of arm. In poomsae, it is the opposite, the large portion is arm movement, with a smaller amount of kick. This is the balance of leg and hand techniques in Kukki Taekwondo.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> Not sure if true or opinion, but 1 Korean Master I used to know used to Laugh and not teach Taegueks... cause he said they were "children forms"  "designed for school children".



Children forms or forms for older practitioners. The walking stance is more natural, and perhaps easier. Children seem to take to the walking stance quite naturally and easily. For older practitioners, those long deep wide stances from Japanese karate get harder to do and can actually cause knee and ankle pain. So in my opinion, it isn't a slam to call the Taeguek poomsae "children's forms" since the vast majority of practicing taekwondoin in today's world are children. 




d1jinx said:


> I heard a few other Koreans say the same thing, but I really dont know if it's true or the original Intent of the Taeguek forms.... Or just a big-ole-glass-o-hater-aide...



The original intent was to include the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan so that all of the major kwans could say they participated and contributed to the creation of the Kukkiwon poomsae. It makes it easier to cooperate and unify when everyone had a hand in the unification effort. Also, the intent was to move away from the long wide unnatural stances and go back to the original narrow relaxed natural stances of Okinawan karate, which from the pioneer's perspective, were time tested and made sense from a longevity standpoint.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> What is the name of the gentleman who your instructor knew who created some of the Palgwae poomsae?


We start back at tkd tonight after the christmas break. As soon as I see the 7th dan who told me about this I will ask him the name of the guy. When he originally told me I didnt take much notice of the name as he was telling me the history behind our GM coming to australia and what he did before coming out here. These days I only see our GM very rarely as he only attends white belt gradings and all the dan gradings, Im not grading for another year and find it hard to get to bb gradings because my son plays saturady morning sport at the same time, in fact Ive probably only seen our GM once in the last 12 months (he has virtually retired, but still does one on one training with our instructors). Our chief instructor, 2 years off 8th dan, pretty much runs the club now along with a dozen or so 6th and 7th dans.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Yes & don't you need a license  from the KKW? Aren't the black belt certificates needed also issued by  the KKW at tests given at the KKW by regions on a regular basis?bThat is  what I meant, as doesn't the KTA follow the KKW?
_



puunui said:


> The KTA governs Taekwondo in South Korea. It really is that simple.


Yes I am well aware that the KTA governs TKD in south Korea. I think you are being a bit picking with the semantics. My point was that in order to open a TKD dojang there, you need an instructors license issued by the KKW, correct? Not the KTA right? And also one must be a KKW balck belt as well. I also think that the KKW, which is the world TKD academy sets the syllabus for Kukki TKD.
Please correct me if I am wrong with any of those points.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Not trying to play oneupsmanship, but if anyone is interested, the Songahm form for 1st black "decided" called "Shim Jun" has 81 steps to it.  The high dan hyung are considerably longer and are at least as difficult physically if not more so as Moon Moo in Chang Hon.


Yes Moon Mu Tul is a beautiful & difficult pattern. It is taught at the 4th Dan level. Now when GM Park Jung Tae left the ITF in 1990, he formed the GTF. He had been the chair of the ITF instruction committee for years. He also was instrumental in devising TK-D's newest pattern in the early 1980s, which is also a difficult & very beautiful pattern with many high slow kicks, flying kicks & combo kicking.
GM Park also created a 96 move pattern for the GTF, which is nice & also very difficult. That is not an ITF one though. Not sure if more is better.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Children forms or forms for older practitioners. The walking stance is more natural, and perhaps easier. Children seem to take to the walking stance quite naturally and easily. For older practitioners, those long deep wide stances from Japanese karate get harder to do and can actually cause knee and ankle pain. So in my opinion, it isn't a slam to call the Taeguek poomsae "children's forms" since the vast majority of practicing taekwondoin in today's world are children.
> The original intent was to include the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan so that all of the major kwans could say they participated and contributed to the creation of the Kukkiwon poomsae. It makes it easier to cooperate and unify when everyone had a hand in the unification effort. Also, the intent was to move away from the long wide unnatural stances and go back to the original narrow relaxed natural stances of Okinawan karate, which from the pioneer's perspective, were time tested and made sense from a longevity standpoint.


That is my understanding of the original intent as well for creating the Taeguek Poomsae. I would add that in the early 1970s, when they were created, there was not yet a mass infusion of too many children in TKD.


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## dancingalone (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Also, the intent was to move away from the long wide unnatural stances and go back to the original narrow relaxed natural stances of Okinawan karate, which from the pioneer's perspective, were time tested and made sense from a longevity standpoint.



To be fair, the reason why Okinawan karate uses high stances is because the forms are meant to be fighting drills, at least in the lineages that teach bunkai formally or the bunkai ideas in an abstract fashion.  I don't get the same feeling from the KKW forms, although by all means correct me if I am wrong.  Instead if forms are simply meant to be a means of training the body, then it might be a good thing to adopt low stances to strengthen the legs as is done in many southern Chinese styles.

Okinawan styles also spend a lot of time with hojo undo physical conditioning, so the need for forms to play a role in physical exercise and strengthening isn't there.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> The Kukkiwon poomsae weren't designed or intended to present a balance between hand and leg techniques. Neither are the Okinawan kata upon which the Kukkiwon poomsae were based. Instead, what the pioneers decided was to emphasize kicking during kyorugi, and emphasize hand movements in poomsae. This is similar to the umyang symbol, where there each side has a large portion and a smaller tail circling each other. In sparring, the large portion is kicking, with a smaller amount of arm. In poomsae, it is the opposite, the large portion is arm movement, with a smaller amount of kick. This is the balance of leg and hand techniques in Kukki Taekwondo.


Something that I've always 'known' but never looked at in that manner.  Thanks!

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> To be fair, the reason why Okinawan karate uses high stances is because the forms are meant to be fighting drills, at least in the lineages that teach bunkai formally or the bunkai ideas in an abstract fashion.  I don't get the same feeling from the KKW forms, although by all means correct me if I am wrong.  Instead if forms are simply meant to be a means of training the body, then it might be a good thing to adopt low stances to strengthen the legs as is done in many southern Chinese styles.




Taekwondo has kicking to keep one's legs strong. We don't need to adopt low stances for that.


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## dancingalone (Jan 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Taekwondo has kicking to keep one's legs strong. We don't need to adopt low stances for that.



What is the purpose of forms practice in KKW taekwondo?


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> What is the purpose of forms practice in KKW taekwondo?



Depends on the practitioner, their stage in the journey and their interests.


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## dancingalone (Jan 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Depends on the practitioner, their stage in the journey and their interests.



There is not a general understanding that would be appropriate as a universal answer?  For example, in Okinawan karate, it's accurate to say kata training in tandem with partner exercises is supposed to transmit the fighting techniques of the style.


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> There is not a general understanding that would be appropriate as a universal answer?




I am sure there is an answer in the Kukkiwon Textbook, but as a practical matter, I don't think so. Personally, I practice the poomsae for health -- Hwal In Taekwondo -- Taekwondo for Long Life. Others have their own reasons, including but not limited to rank promotion requirements, competition, self defense, etc.


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## d1jinx (Jan 19, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> There is not a general understanding that would be appropriate as a universal answer? For example, in Okinawan karate, it's accurate to say kata training in tandem with partner exercises is supposed to transmit the fighting techniques of the style.


 
Per the KKW text, 
"Poomsae is the style of conduct which expresses directly or indirectly mental and physical refinements as well as the principles of offense and defense resulting from cultivation of Taekwondo spirit and techniques"

hows that for an answer...

It goes on to say (summerized) that its used to practice the application of Offense and defensive techniques without the presense of the instructor to enhance Kyorugi techniques..

mind and body!  and its great for a work out! good sweat after doing whole set


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> What is the name of the gentleman who your instructor knew who created some of the Palgwae poomsae?


OK, I went to class last night and the 7th dan wasnt there but I spoke to a 4th dan and he was a bit more vague in his detail (I will ask the 7th dan when I next see him). The 4th dan, however, said that our GM's instructor was named (and I'll spell it phoenetically) Ejong or Eejon. Does this name ring a bell? Doing a timeline Im imagining this guy must have been training our GM in about 1961 or earlier.


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## puunui (Jan 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> OK, I went to class last night and the 7th dan wasnt there but I spoke to a 4th dan and he was a bit more vague in his detail (I will ask the 7th dan when I next see him). The 4th dan, however, said that our GM's instructor was named (and I'll spell it phoenetically) Ejong or Eejon. Does this name ring a bell? Doing a timeline Im imagining this guy must have been training our GM in about 1961 or earlier.



He might be talking about GM LEE Chong Woo. What kwan is your grandmaster from?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> He might be talking about GM LEE Chong Woo. What kwan is your grandmaster from?


I will see if I can find out, he had a military background (teaching self defence to the american soldiers in korea from what I can understand). Its a shame he has virtually retired because it would have been good to ask him in person but as I said earlier I see him very rarely these days.


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## rmclain (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> There is an issue with the way GM LEE Chong Kwan does the Palgwae poomsae. Specifically in Palgwae 1 Jang, the second movement shown is an in out middle block, while others do that particular movement as an out in middle block.


 
That's the way Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo teaches that part in Palgue Il Jang - inside to outside centerblock. I don't know if this adds to this discussion. Thought I would add it as a piece of information.  He's the only person I've seen doing it this way until you mentioned it on this post.

R. McLain


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## rmclain (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> The Palgwae poomsae and Yudanja poomsae were finished in 1968. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 was completed in 1972. If you are going to parrot me, at least do so accurately.


 
I'm curious why the KTA would hold their first official clinic on the Palgue forms in 1972 if they had finished the Taeguek forms? Did they finish them in 1968 after the first clinic on the Palgue forms? 

At this first clinic in 1972 (I don't know how many actually were held), they didn't have enough time to teach all the Palgue forms and handed out pamphlets in Korean for participants to take home. Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo was in attendance and still has his pamphlet.

R. McLain


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

rmclain said:


> That's the way Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo teaches that part in Palgue Il Jang - inside to outside centerblock. I don't know if this adds to this discussion. Thought I would add it as a piece of information.  He's the only person I've seen doing it this way until you mentioned it on this post.




It might be a Chang Moo Kwan thing, I don't know. GM LEE Chong Kwan is a Chang Moo Kwan member. But GM LEE Won Kuk lists the move as an makki, which is an out in middle block.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

rmclain said:


> I'm curious why the KTA would hold their first official clinic on the Palgue forms in 1972 if they had finished the Taeguek forms? Did they finish them in 1968 after the first clinic on the Palgue forms?




I think the Palgwae poomsae were first taught in 1968, not 1972. It was at the same time that Koryo 1 was taught, which is still practiced by a lot of people. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 (which is what most people practice) came out at the same time as the Taeguek poomsae, which was in 1972. Try asking him if he learned Koryo 1 or 2 during that Palgwae seminar.


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## rmclain (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think the Palgwae poomsae were first taught in 1968, not 1972. It was at the same time that Koryo 1 was taught, which is still practiced by a lot of people. The Taeguek poomsae and Koryo 2 (which is what most people practice) came out at the same time as the Taeguek poomsae, which was in 1972. Try asking him if he learned Koryo 1 or 2 during that Palgwae seminar.



They only instructed the palgue forms at the 1972 clinic he attended. They ran out of time to teach them all to their group and handed out pamphlets that taught the palgue forms. He translated these into English and published the first of his Palgue books in 1973 based upon these. He said there was no second koryo at this time. This first palgue clinic was limited to certain invited masters. He immigrated to the US in Jan 1968, a few weeks after attending the KTA first clinic on the yudanja forms (koryo #1 was introduced there). He was invited to attend the inaugural group to learn the palgue form in 1972, which was his first trip back to Korea following leaving in  1968. He had friend and teachers involved with the KTA and there was no mention of Palgue before 1972.


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## Archtkd (Jan 28, 2011)

rmclain said:


> That's the way Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo teaches that part in Palgue Il Jang - inside to outside centerblock. I don't know if this adds to this discussion. Thought I would add it as a piece of information.  He's the only person I've seen doing it this way until you mentioned it on this post.
> 
> R. McLain



I have a book: Tae Kwon Do Forms -- Complete & Official Forms of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, published in Seoul in 1988, and distributed by the International Coucncil on Martial Arts Education, which states poom No. 6 and 7 in Palgwe Il Jang are "inside-outisde body blocks (Momtong Yeop Makki). Members of the ICMAEC listed in the book are Dae Shik KIm, Kyung Sun Shin, Tae Hong Choi, Bong Yul Shin, Kiel Soon Park, Suk Ki Shin, Lee H. Park, Kwang Sung Kim and Ri Kon Ko. The 2003 Official WTF Dartfish Video/DVD shows those blocks as inside-outside. The model in the video is Lee Kyu-Hyun, former chairman of the Kukkiwon's Education Committee.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I have a book: Tae Kwon Do Forms -- Complete & Official Forms of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, published in Seoul in 1988, and distributed by the International Coucncil on Martial Arts Education, which states poom No. 6 and 7 in Palgwe Il Jang are "inside-outisde body blocks (Momtong Yeop Makki). Members of the ICMAEC listed in the book are Dae Shik KIm, Kyung Sun Shin, Tae Hong Choi, Bong Yul Shin, Kiel Soon Park, Suk Ki Shin, Lee H. Park, Kwang Sung Kim and Ri Kon Ko. The 2003 Official WTF Dartfish Video/DVD shows those blocks as inside-outside. The model in the video is Lee Kyu-Hyun, former chairman of the Kukkiwon's Education Committee.




I just got a book "Tae Kwon Do Korean Martial Art" by Sang Oh Moon, published in 1976. He shows Master Moon doing the Palgwae 1 Jang using an out to in middle block. So there are differences out there.


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## Archtkd (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> I just got a book "Tae Kwon Do Korean Martial Art" by Sang Oh Moon, published in 1976. He shows Master Moon doing the Palgwae 1 Jang using an out to in middle block. So there are differences out there.


 I wonder why or how that difference arose.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I wonder why or how that difference arose.


I guess it is hard to transmit info about physical movements exactly. But now that the KKW is holding more instructor courses & make it mandatory for certain levels if they wish to have their student's black belt applications processed, this will help. It is also going to be a big help when more start to see the winners at the WTF world championships, as that will also help standardization, which is very hard to obtain.


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> But now that the KKW is holding more instructor courses & make it mandatory for certain levels if they wish to have their student's black belt applications processed, this will help.



Again, it is NOT mandatory for a Kukkiwon certified instructor living outside of Korea to possess the Instructor Qualification certificate to process Kukkiwon poom and dan. Please stop spreading misinformation regarding the Kukkiwon.


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## terryl965 (Jan 30, 2011)

I kave a question for some of you at the qualifier Saturday I heard that the WTF was going to start issueing a sport TKD certifcate to seperate that aspect from the KKW. I knew they was going to issue a liscense but to issue just a BB certificate for OLympic sparring is new to me, anybody else hear this?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 30, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I kave a question for some of you at the qualifier Saturday I heard that the WTF was going to start issueing a sport TKD certifcate to seperate that aspect from the KKW. I knew they was going to issue a liscense but to issue just a BB certificate for OLympic sparring is new to me, anybody else hear this?


Terry, what dan black belt do you need to compete in sport tkd?


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I kave a question for some of you at the qualifier Saturday I heard that the WTF was going to start issueing a sport TKD certifcate to seperate that aspect from the KKW. I knew they was going to issue a liscense but to issue just a BB certificate for OLympic sparring is new to me, anybody else hear this?



The WTF issued a statement about this months ago. It isn't a sport certificate and it isn't a license and has nothing to do with any separation from the KKW. I don't know where you get this stuff. I think you have these things in your head and then you hear something and then try to force fit that with the stuff that is already in your head.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> The WTF issued a statement about this months ago. It isn't a sport certificate and it isn't a license and has nothing to do with any separation from the KKW. I don't know where you get this stuff. I think you have these things in your head and then you hear something and then try to force fit that with the stuff that is already in your head.


 
no I am not force fitting anything, I am asking what was said this weekend. They said you will need a special liscense to compete in international events and that they was thinking about issueing a sport certificate. I know you are against this type of thing but please do not think that I am making things up. I only ask because they seem so sure about it? If you remain that this info is false great, all I can do is repeat what you have said here to them and listen to what they have to say.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Terry, what dan black belt do you need to compete in sport tkd?


 
Just a first Dan or poom will let you compete on the international level.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 31, 2011)

There was something about a new membership proposal for the WTF players. Not sure how this fits into the picture.


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> They said you will need a special liscense to compete in international events and that they was thinking about issueing a sport certificate.




Who are They" who said these things?


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> Again, it is NOT mandatory for a Kukkiwon certified instructor living outside of Korea to possess the Instructor Qualification certificate to process Kukkiwon poom and dan. Please stop spreading misinformation regarding the Kukkiwon.


 
Perhaps this is a semantics / terminology issue. Please enlighten the non KKW among us. 

If you are a "Kukkiwon certified Instructor" what is the piece of paper (if any) called that reflects the certification? 

I expect by the above post, that if such a piece of paper exists it is not called a "Instructor Qualification Certificate". 

So, if there is such a thing as an "Instructor Qualification Certificate" issued by the KKW how is that different than A "KKW certified Instructor"? 

Perhaps it is like the ITF system that considers 4th Dans instructors, but to process paperwork / sign off on Dan applications as instructor you must ahave a seperate Instructor certificate -pay dues etc.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> Who are They" who said these things?


 
Well I do not wish who said what at the qualifier without asking if it is OK to post that info on behalf of them. But lets just say here in the DFW area they are some of that special regime that try to control everything. They are Master and GM's that have been around for a longtime.

On a side note an article was published a few months ago talking about this liscense the WTF was going to give to all competitors competing in qualifing events, which I could remember where that was publish but I will find it and post it again, hell it is most likely on this site as well.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

Well this was just sent by Master Richard Sack, Head refereee chair for Texas and International refereee. I hope this helps.



Begin forwarded message:

*From: *World Taekwondo Federation <newsletter@wtf.org>

*Date: *January 31, 2011 3:42:13 PM CST

*To: *sacks@wans.net

*Subject: **WTF Taekwondo Newsletter*

*Reply-To: *newsletter@wtf.org


[FONT=verdana,arial]Having trouble viewing this email? Click here ​[/FONT]​​


January 31,  2011*WTF Newsletter - January 2011 Edition*​This edition provides you with background information and news on the WTF activties and upcoming taekwondo events 

​​​*WTF Taekwondo Web TV - a New Window of Opportunity*​​​
*The WTF Taekwondo Web TV proves its potential  as one of the fastest growing new media in sports .  
*
The WTF Taekwondo Web TV (www.wtf-taekwondo.tv) was launched in 2008 as an ambitious initiative by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) to take advantage of the latest new media technology in order to reach out to the worldwide taekwondo fans and realize the potential of this fast growing global sport. 



For the first one and a half years since the project kicked off, continued efforts have been exerted to show the taekwondo new media known to the taekwondo and international sport community. 
It was at the 2009 WTF World Taekwondo Championships in Copenhagen, Denmark that catalyzed the momentum for the WTF Web TV and put it on the map. The five days of competition attracted 300,000 visitors and recorded one million video streamings and two million page impressions. Since then,the trend has only been upwards.
The concept underlying this initiative is simple and clear - meeting the needs of different groups of stakeholders in the taekwondo community. When a competition is held, every single match falls on the focus of interest and attention of various groups of people: family and friends of athletes, people in the city or the country of medal winners and so on. 
However, as in many other sports, traditional TV cannot cover all the matches of a tournament or all the tournaments of taekwondo, because TV is selective in choosing the competitions for coverage. It also tends to air only high-interest matches of a competition that it covers, for example, semifinals or finals.  The WTF Taekwondo Web TV aims to serve the niche market by ensuring everyone has an easy and free access to all matches of as many taekwondo competitions as possible. 
To this aim, the WTF developed WTF-Taekwondo Web TV in cooperation with Dartfish, a Swiss company leading in development of video solutions for the sport world and designed a unique system integrating the instant video replay system with Web TV. This solution allows producing videos in a cost effective way and using the videos generated by the instant video replay system to post them on the web. 
In addition, as the system is compatible with all WTF-recognized Protector and Scoring System (PSS), it is easy to operate and enables automotive video production.  
The WTF Taekwondo Web TV posts videos produced through this solution to the web and makes them open to the public free of charge. For viewer interface, keyword search function was added to allow viewers to easily find the videos that they want to watch. To make video-watching a more fun experience to viewers, a comment addition function was implemented. 
In addition, it also offers free "easy video embedding" services to all the members of taekwondo family including athletes, clubs, and WTF member national associations. Anyone can select and embed videos that they want show and share with others on any website. 
On top of these very useful functions, the web TV serves to distribute videos for coaching purposes. People can download videos and archive them on personal computers for review and analysis. This feature was developed to realize WTF's commitment to offering an equal opportunity for every athlete to learn and improve their performance, thus helping contribute to further development of the sport. The WTF-Taekwondo Web TV also offers educational materials for coaches and referees.
 As a next step, the WTF sets an objective to evolve the WTF Taekwondo Web TV as a platform for revenue generation through advertising for the sake of the entire taekwondo community. 
For this purpose, a series of plans will be implemented in various aspects. First, a greater number of video content will be produced and made available. In particular, 2011 is expected to be a jam-packed year with many important events, including the WTF World Taekwondo Championships in Gyeongju, Korea and world and continental qualification tournaments for the 2012 London Olympic Games. 
In addition, there are major international taekwondo open competitions to be added. Furthermore, video content will be also more diversified to cover competition and non-competition aspects. It will also provide a value-added service for the members of the WTF Global Athlete License and Global Membership System.
Its track record speaks for itself. Considering this growth trend and the above objectives that are planned, it will become one of the fastest growing new media in sports, presenting great potential for revenue generation. 

​

For further information or any inquiry, please contact us at [EMAIL="newsletter@wtf.org"]newsletter@wtf.org[/EMAIL]​​

​​​*WTF Athletes License  *​​​
*WTF introduces Mandatory Global Athlete Licence for International Athletes.  *

Athletes competing in WTF-promoted championships will require a WTF Global Athlete Licence starting from the 2011 WTF World Taekwondo Championships scheduled for May 1-6 this year in Gyeongju, Korea.​
The license will be an important tool in gathering valuable information on WTF's top competing athletes that will aid in both the marketing of the sport and leading to a more efficient competition management process.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Sample - WTF Global Athlete License Card 

All licensed athletes will receive a unique WTF ID number and license card which will be used to identify and verify the athlete at all WTF-promoted championships. 

Key taekwondo data will be stored and accessible online through the unique WTF ID number that each athlete will have.

It is hoped that over time other important taekwondo data for each athlete can be linked to their unique ID number including competition results, WTF Rankings, competition videos, educational videos and much more.  

Applications for a WTF Global Athlete Licence can only be submitted through the WTF Member National Associations.
It is planned that the WTF Global Athlete License will be phased into all WTF sanctioned tournaments over time but by no earlier than January 1, 2013.


For further information or any inquiry, please contact us at newsletter@wtf.org​​

​​​*WTF Launches Global Membership System*​​​
There are an estimated 70 million taekwondo practitioners around the globe, making taekwondo one of the most practiced martial art sport in the world. The objective of the Global Membership System is to know better the practitioners around the world, establish an attractive communication with all of them and reinforce the image of taekwondo as a global sport.  It is also to support their excellence in training and help to establish professional marketing plans.  Every single member national association (MNA) should remain as it always has been a leading force to build up the practitioner's base. The WTF as the international sport-governing body wants to coordinate the efforts to efficiently implement a global membership program that should benefit all the MNAs, Continental Unions and ultimately the worldwide expansion of taekwondo.

The WTF GMS allows for the WTF member countries and their registered states/regions, dojangs (clubs) to manage up-to-the-minute membership information on their members. Each member's card will include a unique membership number that with internet access connects directly to the member's online real time profile in the WTF GMS. Every individual will receive a Global Membership Card issued by the WTF that shows the logos of the MNA, Continental Unions and WTF.  Application form for Global Membership can be made only through member national associations of the WTF.

WTF is hoping to capitalize on this number by providing an all-in-one membership management system to its member national associations to manage their members starting from February 1st this year.





 Sample - Global Membership Card WTF will officially launch the online system from February 1, 2011. Four Member National Associations, Bermuda, Bolivia, Egypt and Iran, will be the first group of MNAs to join the system from February 14, 2011 and it is expected that many more MNAs will join as they see the benefits from the Global Membership.

Thanks to the economy of scale by providing the system at a global level, the cost per annual individual membership to be covered by MNAs will be kept to a minimum low and will still allow WTF to reallocate the largest part of this amount to the development of the sport. Profit generated from the WTF GMS will go towards the development and growth of taekwondo around the world and will help to increase the level of competition amongst taekwondo participants by providing resources and opportunities to the developing nations that otherwise would not be able to compete in taekwondo events around the world. The WTF GMS funds will also support the development of ten (10) worldwide taekwondo centres aiming at helping taekwondo athletes worldwide level up their competing ability through training.

WTF has been working closely with HangAStar a specialized Sports IT and marketing management company in the development of the WTF GMS for the past 18 months and will officially launch the online system from February 14, 2011. The WTF GMS database system will be housed in HangAStar's state-of-the-art Data Centre in Minneapolis, USA under the highest level of security.​

For further information or any inquiry, please contact us at newsletter@wtf.org​​
*World Taekwondo Federation*​_*Headquarters*_
4F Joyang Building 113, Samseong-dong, Gangnam-gu,  Seoul Korea 
Email: [EMAIL="wtf@wtf.org"]wtf@wtf.org , Tel: +82 2 566 25 05

_*European Office*_
Avenue de Rhodanie 54, Lausanne, 1007
Email: lausanne@wtf.org, Tel: + 41 21 601 50 13


[/EMAIL]​​


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## d1jinx (Jan 31, 2011)

At WTF events?  so the same 8-10 people USAT carts around each year will have 1?

On another note, how much is this going to cost?


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

Right, that is the program that they announced a little while back. Nothing to do with Kukkiwon or separation of martial art and sport. Remember?


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 31, 2011)

I thought there wasn't supposed to be a license. Huh.

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> Right, that is the program that they announced a little while back. Nothing to do with Kukkiwon or separation of martial art and sport. Remember?


 
You said there was no liscense or certificates. This does seperate the KKW from the WTF, now you do not need a KKW to participate at WTF events just there liscense. Does this not make them seperate? You always needed a KKW to do certain WTF event and that is changing.

Beside if it does not seperate why have it? What good is it except for sport competition?


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Beside if it does not seperate why have it? What good is it except for sport competition?




I don't know if license is the proper word for the use of that program, at least in the normal way that we use the term. To me, it sounds more like your Taekwondo social security number, where they can instantly identify you and your record. They swipe you in and they have all your information at their fingertips. I can see it being expanded to include International Referees and Coaches. I don't know if I like this system -- sounds too much like 1984 if you ask me. I am not a part of that WTF system, not an International Coach, IR or competitor, so it doesn't affect me personally.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know if license is the proper word for the use of that program, at least in the normal way that we use the term. To me, it sounds more like your Taekwondo social security number, where they can instantly identify you and your record. They swipe you in and they have all your information at their fingertips. I can see it being expanded to include International Referees and Coaches. I don't know if I like this system -- sounds too much like 1984 if you ask me. I am not a part of that WTF system, not an International Coach, IR or competitor, so it doesn't affect me personally.


 

OK what about the WTF Global Membership system, why have this? Does this not effect the KKW? Why would anybody need a Global membership, I thought the KKW was a global membership?

I am trying to figure out why the WTF is making themself an seperate identity when they have always had the KKW for that sort of thing?


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## leadleg (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> You said there was no liscense or certificates. This does seperate the KKW from the WTF, now you do not need a KKW to participate at WTF events just there liscense. Does this not make them seperate? You always needed a KKW to do certain WTF event and that is changing.
> 
> Beside if it does not seperate why have it? What good is it except for sport competition?


 If you go to the wtf website and look for the application for the card you will see it requires your KKW number.Proof of KKW for all applicants does not spell seperation.
 You know of the point system set up by the wtf it is this card or athlete liscense that will be used as the id for that system and other things as well.You want to register at the tourney?,they will swipe your card and bang,there is your picture,your rank, etc.. welcome to the 21st century.


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## leadleg (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> OK what about the WTF Global Membership system, why have this? Does this not effect the KKW? Why would anybody need a Global membership, I thought the KKW was a global membership?
> 
> I am trying to figure out why the WTF is making themself an seperate identity when they have always had the KKW for that sort of thing?


 Same idea as the athlete liscense only for all members,get this,it costs money and could be sold to millions of members! Imagine something coming from the wtf that is going to make them a ton of cash.....................


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## Archtkd (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know if license is the proper word for the use of that program, at least in the normal way that we use the term. To me, it sounds more like your Taekwondo social security number, where they can instantly identify you and your record. They swipe you in and they have all your information at their fingertips. I can see it being expanded to include International Referees and Coaches. I don't know if I like this system -- sounds too much like 1984 if you ask me. I am not a part of that WTF system, not an International Coach, IR or competitor, so it doesn't affect me personally.


 
From what I've heard from my old colleagues at the Kenya Taekwondo Association this are basically international competition identity cards, which will cost Kenyans about $30 each. I think the term licence is misleading. A KTA person told me they think the WTF is also trying to reduce fraud, because some national teams from developing countries have been known to switch competitors around.


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Same idea as the athlete liscense only for all members,get this,it costs money and could be sold to millions of members! Imagine something coming from the wtf that is going to make them a ton of cash.....................


From my understanding the fee was to be nominal, with part of the fee going to the school, the national group & then to the WTF. I was also led to believe that it was needed in part, to help support the WTF, as they were not getting the funds from the KKW was supposed to send it. This was also part of the reason why the WTF moved into an office buidling owned by Dr Choue's family. Remember that at 1 time, the KTA, KKW & WTF were all led by 1 person, Dr Kim. That we know is no longer the case. We also know that some in the KKW do not like Dr Choue & may not even respect him or his leadership. Likewise, while Dr Choue has apparently formed some sort of working relationship with President Kang Won Sik of the KKW, some at the KKW do not like him either.
So while I am not an insider, it is clear that south Korean TKD is in a transition stage or some sorts. There was also some scuttle about the WTF issuing their own black belt certificates & the new TKD Park becoming a world TKD academy as well. We also see that the WTF is setting up regional training centres as well. So I guess time will tell & we will find out more as things unfold etc.


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## Archtkd (Feb 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> .
> So while I am not an insider, it is clear that south Korean TKD is in a transition stage or some sorts. There was also some scuttle about the WTF issuing their own black belt certificates & the new TKD Park becoming a world TKD academy as well. We also see that the WTF is setting up regional training centres as well. So I guess time will tell & we will find out more as things unfold etc.


 
I think this talk about a schism between the KKW and WTF is just that -- talk. Alot of what the WTF is doing now is not new. The WTF, particularly in developing countries, has alwas been the face of Kukki Taekwondo from a promotional, sport development aspect. The WTF also has always been the body that dealt directly with many national bodies. The WTF in many countries acts at the liason between national Kukki-Taekwondo bodies and the Kukkiwon. At least this was my experience in Kenya.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Perhaps this is a semantics / terminology issue. Please enlighten the non KKW among us.
> 
> If you are a "Kukkiwon certified Instructor" what is the piece of paper (if any) called that reflects the certification?
> 
> ...


Any KKW fourth dan or higher may submit paperwork to recommend a student to a dan grade up to one grade below his or her own.  So that person is an instructor and has a KKW fourth dan certificate, and thus is a KKW certified instructor.

There is a Kukkiwon instructor's course.  If one takes the course, I'd assume that they receive a certification that they have done so.  This would be the equeivalent of a an instructor qualification certificate and different from their dan certificate.

Daniel


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I was also led to believe that it was needed in part, to help support the WTF, as they were not getting the funds from the KKW was supposed to send it. This was also part of the reason why the WTF moved into an office buidling owned by Dr Choue's family.



Again, this is false information. The Kukkiwon has been giving its $US one million per year to the WTF each year without break. It is their "cut", for requiring Kukkiwon certification for all participants at WTF events. 

As for why the WTF headquarters moved into an office building owned by President Choue's mother, when he first campaigned for the WTF presidency back in 2004, Dr. Choue promised to use his own money to build a WTF headquarters building. Once he was elected, he instead moved the headquarters into a building owned by his mother in Kangnam. So instead of paying for a new building, the WTF pays Dr. Choue's mother rent for the space. Dr. Choue's mother is making money off of the WTF for office space.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> There is a Kukkiwon instructor's course.  If one takes the course, I'd assume that they receive a certification that they have done so.  This would be the equeivalent of a an instructor qualification certificate and different from their dan certificate.




If you attend the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, you receive two certificates. One is a graduation certificate, and if you pass the test, then you get an Instructor Qualification certificate as well. Selected people at the course may receive another certificate, a Citation. 

In Korea, instructors must attend and pass the Kukkiwon Instructor Course before they can be allowed to open a dojang and recommend students for Kukkiwon poom and dan rank. Outside of Korea, there is no such requirement. It was announced at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Los Angeles that starting in February 2011, all overseas Instructors must possess a Kukkiwon Instructor Qualification certificate in order to recommmend candidates for Kukkiwon poom/dan certification. But the Kukkiwon has said that is not the case.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> OK what about the WTF Global Membership system, why have this? Does this not effect the KKW? Why would anybody need a Global membership, I thought the KKW was a global membership? I am trying to figure out why the WTF is making themself an seperate identity when they have always had the KKW for that sort of thing?




Sounds more like a "big brother" thing rather than any effort to create a separate identity. If you read that WTF newsletter, it says that it will run through the WTF MNA (USAT in the United States). Strange to have a Global Membership system, since the WTF bylaws state that the only members of the WTF are the Member National Associations (like USAT) -- there are no individual members of the WTF.


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Sounds more like a "big brother" thing rather than any effort to create a separate identity. If you read that WTF newsletter, it says that it will run through the WTF MNA (USAT in the United States). Strange to have a Global Membership system, since the WTF bylaws state that the only members of the WTF are the Member National Associations (like USAT) -- there are no individual members of the WTF.


 
I understand this, since I am also USAT because of some of my players. Why play big brother as you put it just to gain more money again? I am strating to see everything with a dollar sign when years ago it was not like it is today. Well I guess the WTF will start having individual members with this ID card!!:rofl:


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> IWhy play big brother as you put it just to gain more money again? I am strating to see everything with a dollar sign when years ago it was not like it is today. Well I guess the WTF will start having individual members with this ID card!!:rofl:




I don't know what the reasoning is behind setting something like this up. That's one of the problems with what is going on at WTF, Kukkiwon and USAT, no one understands why. Maybe they think 70 million will sign up for this, every year. The sample on the WTF newsletter has a date on it, the inference being that you have to get a new one annually. But I really don't think so.


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