# Tracy Kenpo Better Then EPAKK!



## Atlanta-Kenpo (May 11, 2005)

I would love to hear everyones ideas about this (Yes, even you Doc!)
I found it on the Tracy Web Site

 :jedi1: 


*(* Article removed due to violation of Fair Use and Copy Right issues. *)
Please provide a link to the article for the discussion. 

Thank you

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk 
Super Moderator*


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## Gentle Fist (May 11, 2005)

Interesting post, thanks.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 11, 2005)

Should anybody be surprised that Tracy's site praises Tracy's background? Keeper of the one great truth?


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## Seabrook (May 11, 2005)

If Tracy Kenpo is better than EPAK, why do I keep getting Tracy Kenpo black belts come to me to learn EPAK? Let me guess, it must be a "school specific" or "instructor specific" thing?

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some amazing Tracy guys, but it's time for us EPAK practitioners to stand up for what we believe and to stop being cowards when these guys constantly criticize Ed Parker and the great system he devised. If you want my honest opinion, I feel the vast majority of EPAK black belts move better than most Tracy black belts (again, I am speaking on average).


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## evenflow1121 (May 11, 2005)

Most of the people that I ever ran into that studied Tracy and then studied EPAK preferred EPAK over the Tracy System.


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## rmcrobertson (May 11, 2005)

It will never be possible to settle these arguments, given that the people making them are at least as full of crap as anyone they're attacking.

The only thing to do is train, stop from time to time to think about your training critically, and (from time to time) look at these various fanciful histories to try and scrape the bits of reality out of them.

Useful guides: ANY time somebody tells you they're not being political, they're being political. And ANY time somebody ties martial arts back to a clear and straightforward, single historical line, they're wrong.


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## Kenpodoc (May 11, 2005)

Caveat Emptor!

So much energy to try to drag down a man after his death. Mr. Parkers legacy is not his belt ranking but his students and their students. Chow himself discredited Mitose and called him a conman and a fraud. Chow was a great artist but Mr. Parkers ranking had nothing to do with Mr. Chow and everything to do with his own system and his own students.

Now ask yourself why more than 10 years after Mr. Parker's death, the Tracy site still feels compelled to attack him personally.  

Jeff


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## evenflow1121 (May 11, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Caveat Emptor!
> 
> So much energy to try to drag down a man after his death. Mr. Parkers legacy is not his belt ranking but his students and their students. Chow himself discredited Mitose and called him a conman and a fraud. Chow was a great artist but Mr. Parkers ranking had nothing to do with Mr. Chow and everything to do with his own system and his own students.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, there are so many EPAK students that never got to meet GMS Parker in life, and yet feel close to him one way or another and appreciate his contributions not only to martial arts but to their lives through Kenpo.  Very few system founders could probably say the same about themselves.


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## kenpo_cory (May 11, 2005)

> The Racial Issue
> 
> The second division, though equal in weight of importance, was the racist posture Ed Parker had taken with blacks. Blacks could not hold the priesthood in the Mormon Church at that time, and blacks were denied an effective voice and went generally unrecognized in American Kenpo. Policies, like requiring a "written thesis" for black belts, was implemented the year after Congress passed the Civil Rights Act. This was done with full knowledge that blacks were not versed in white America 's higher education system.
> 
> In the first ten years Ed Parker taught Kenpo, the number of blacks could be counted on the finger of one hand, and nearly as inconspicuous were females in Parkers early schools. The few blacks who came in later, like Steve Sanders and Donny Williams, rose to black belt rank, only to find themselves without a voice in white bread American Kenpo. Racism (black) is not defined by the number of blacks in an organization, but by the number of blacks in high positions in the organization, and when Tracy s split from Ed Parker there were no blacks in high positions, and none were allowed.



A link was already posted to this garbage somewhere else on martial talk and Mr. Chapel already gave his opinion on the garbage quoted above. If you look its here somewhere.


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## eyebeams (May 11, 2005)

So aside from number of techniques, what are the differences in training, theory and methodology?


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## kenpo_cory (May 11, 2005)

I was looking around and found it. If you look through page 5 on the Parker or Lee thread you'll find Mr. Conatser's opinion about the religious crap posted in that article as well as Mr. Chapel's opinion about the racial B.S.


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## Blindside (May 11, 2005)

Um guys, this article has been out on the web for at least 7 years, it has been talked to death.  Yes I do come from a Tracy lineage, and yes this article is complete crap.  

Lamont


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## Ender (May 11, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Um guys, this article has been out on the web for at least 7 years, it has been talked to death.  Yes I do come from a Tracy lineage, and yes this article is complete crap.
> 
> Lamont



Did Tracy write it?..or was it written by someone else?


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## Kenpodoc (May 11, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Um guys, this article has been out on the web for at least 7 years, it has been talked to death.  Yes I do come from a Tracy lineage, and yes this article is complete crap.
> 
> Lamont


Agreed. Perhaps the Tracy students should apply pressure to remove this derogatory trash.

Jeff


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## Blindside (May 11, 2005)

Ender said:
			
		

> Did Tracy write it?..or was it written by someone else?



This series of articles was written by Will Tracy (there are three Tracy brothers; Jim, Al, Will), my understanding is that Will is not associated with the Tracy Kenpo organization any longer.  However, since these articles were on the official Tracy webpage for a number of years, any reasonable person would hold the Tracy organization at least partially responsible.  

The pages were eventually taken off the webpage (probably 3/4 years go), but then last year were reposted on Ted Sumners site (Mr. Sumner is a high rank, I want to say 9th in Tracys Kenpo).  I would note that Mr. Sumner has obliquely stated that he does not necessarily agree with those articles.  If you really want to get your mad-on, go to his site and read some of the other articles in that series.    

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (May 11, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> If Tracy Kenpo is better than EPAK, why do I keep getting Tracy Kenpo black belts come to me to learn EPAK?


 Well, if they are coming to you.... that is not a new thing.  Ed Parker had many a Tracy student "_*return home to the nest*_" so to speak, once they realized just who and where the real material originated from (I was from a Tracy background up thru 2nd black myself!  so I KNOW the difference 1st hand), I also for the past 30 years have experienced and still experience the same as you, except now I get the additional treat to help those that train what they tell me is EPAK but want to learn the material that I teach and then realize what EPAK. really is.  :uhyeah:  Go figure...     SSDD  I guess



			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, I think there are some amazing Tracy guys.


 Agreed  !!!!



			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> It's time for us EPAK practitioners to stand up for what we believe and to stop being cowards when these guys constantly criticize Ed Parker and the great system he devised.


 Well, you have to speak for yourself here pal,  I have _*NEVER*_ considered myself a _coward_ when it comes to MY ART and MY TEACHER/S !!!!  It's just that I refuse to do battle with unarmed opponents.   I mean after all...... who is more foolish.... THE FOOL or the FOOL arguing with the FOOL?  :idunno:


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## Sigung86 (May 11, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Agreed. Perhaps the Tracy students should apply pressure to remove this derogatory trash.
> 
> Jeff



Jeff,

I attempted to do that very thing and as a result, was rather unceremoniously dumped out of the ASSociation.  Funnily, the only way I really found out is that I was reading on one of the other "seniors" forums, and he was posting the whole rant thing about me and how Al Tracy hadn't ever heard of me.  that was in spite of the extra money I paid to get my black silk/paper with gold print certificate, signed by Al, Pat, and Mark Tracy and with a serial number.  At any rate, I called Al and all he would tell me is that I had pissed off a number of association members and that I was out of the association and should go do my own thing. (I guess it was the statement I made here on MT that there are "Tracy folks who think Tom Connor was a better martial artist than Al" that became the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were).

BTW... My name, rank, and serial number have been removed from the Tracy family tree, as well.  So I am, so to speak, excommunicated, and therefore, so much for the claim of the "most accurate" family tree.

The whole point being, is that if you go and read on the attendent forum, you will find that the Tracy group is not even remotely interested in taking down the inciteful material, declare this material to be the truth.  I believe that the whole thing is a Tracy political thing that is ingrained.  If you don't want to dislike Ed Parker, and slam on EPAK, your time in the association is limited to the moment that one of the higher ups figures that out.   :boing2:


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## Rich Parsons (May 11, 2005)

*
I have removed the article in question based upon fair use and copy right issues. If a link can be provided I will edit the original post to have the link for futhre discussion. 

I apologize for the inconvience of this issue.

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator
*


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## Michael Billings (May 11, 2005)

It is ok to post the link to the article Rich removed, with a short exerpt.  But we have been advised it could get us in legal trouble if we reproduce articles or works in their entirety, without the author's permission.

 Now, for my comment:

 You know how many people believe anything they read? Lots and lots of them. Then they cite it as a "reliable" source and the arguements begin. Those who are old dogs know better, but how do you convice a 21 year old black belt in Tracy kenpo, who has not heard anything else ... and they know what they learn and their teachers share, is gospel.

 Well this crap has been around for over a decade and people still believe it, of course you can find proof positive about the moon being made out of green cheese according to google, or maybe it was froogle.

 Few things really piss me off, but this is one of the ones that does. It slanders my lineage (EPAK), and reflects poorly on the other earlier part of my lineage (Chinese Kenpo). I am chewing nails right now, but nowhere to spit the tacks.

  :angry:  
  -Michael


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## Goldendragon7 (May 12, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Jeff,
> I was rather unceremoniously dumped out of the ASSociation. I paid to get my black silk/paper with gold print certificate, signed by Al, Pat, and Mark Tracy and with a serial number. At any rate, I called Al and all he would tell me is that I had pissed off a number of association members and that I was out of the association and should go do my own thing.
> 
> BTW... My name, rank, and serial number have been removed from the Tracy family tree, as well. So I am, so to speak, excommunicated.


 A very unfortunate and childish method of with dealing with a problem for sure [IMHO]! But it goes to show you the truth and quality the current leadership of the "one time" largest Kenpo organization that is now reduced to a minimum number of followers that only get ignored or booted if the $$$ stops. A real class act to belong to. (I guess that's why I {and thousands of others} are not there! %-}  well, now you can understand why the ill feelings at times.  

 Dan and I have been friends and associates for a few years now, even tho we have disagreed at times on certain issues, organizations and individuals political history have always played second string to our friendship and truth.

    :supcool:

 PS..... and yes Michael (Billings) it also bugs me too!  You could try spitting the tacks towards San Jose or Kentucky:idea:  :uhyeah:


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## Seabrook (May 12, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> You know how many people believe anything they read? Lots and lots of them.
> :angry:
> -Michael


Exactly my point Michael....well put!


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## The Kai (May 12, 2005)

The tracy's are merely a pale shadow of the source of thier inspiration.  Then to turn around and back stab!!!
Wow


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## KenpoDave (May 12, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> This series of articles was written by Will Tracy (there are three Tracy brothers; Jim, Al, Will), my understanding is that Will is not associated with the Tracy Kenpo organization any longer.  However, since these articles were on the official Tracy webpage for a number of years, any reasonable person would hold the Tracy organization at least partially responsible.



Although it should be noted that Will Tracy also ran and hosted the official Tracy website.  When Al Tracy began doing the website himself, the articles immediately disappeared.



> The pages were eventually taken off the webpage (probably 3/4 years go),



They were taken off in February of 1999.



> but then last year were reposted on Ted Sumners site (Mr. Sumner is a high rank, I want to say 9th in Tracys Kenpo).  I would note that Mr. Sumner has obliquely stated that he does not necessarily agree with those articles.  If you really want to get your mad-on, go to his site and read some of the other articles in that series.
> 
> Lamont



Dr. Sumner is an 8th.  You are correct, he does not necessarily agree with or endorse the articles, but hopes that they will provide stimulating conversation/discussion/debate.  It seems that everyone is willing to state that the articles are "Crap" and then slam Al Tracy for them (even though he did not write them) but as of yet no one has stepped forward with any substantive claim of specific inaccuracies within the articles.

Again, Will Tracy is not a part of the Tracy Organization, nor does he support Al Tracy, according to his own words.  To condemn Al Tracy for Will's words is ridiculous.


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## KenpoDave (May 12, 2005)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I would love to hear everyones ideas about this (Yes, even you Doc!)
> I found it on the Tracy Web Site
> 
> :jedi1:



Where on the Tracy Web Site?


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## KenpoDave (May 12, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> If Tracy Kenpo is better than EPAK, why do I keep getting Tracy Kenpo black belts come to me to learn EPAK?



Probably the same reason EPAK guys keep coming to me to learn kenpo.


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## Seabrook (May 12, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Probably the same reason EPAK guys keep coming to me to learn kenpo.


Okay, okay, okay Dave. I don't know you personally but know about your background and I respect that. 

I am not trying to get into a shoving match here. But if someone posts an article that is full of crap, and that purposefully shoots down EPAK, I am going to speak up. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Bode (May 12, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Okay, okay, okay Dave. I don't know you personally but know about your background and I respect that.
> 
> I am not trying to get into a shoving match here. But if someone posts an article that is full of crap, and that purposefully shoots down EPAK, I am going to speak up.


 Perfect example of the art depending upon the quality of the teacher. (I can say this because you are both in different countries  ) I'd probably be at a different school if Doc wasn't around the corner. You take the instructor that is the best, not necessarily the art. (Depending on options) 
 Good Hapkido better than bad Kenpo (EPAK or Otherwise)


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## MJS (May 12, 2005)

Bode said:
			
		

> Perfect example of the art depending upon the quality of the teacher. (I can say this because you are both in different countries  ) I'd probably be at a different school if Doc wasn't around the corner. You take the instructor that is the best, not necessarily the art. (Depending on options)
> Good Hapkido better than bad Kenpo (EPAK or Otherwise)



Good point!  And that is ultimately what really matters....what suits the person the best!  Its all part of the Kenpo tree, just a different branch.

Mike


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## kenpo_cory (May 12, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Dr. Sumner is an 8th.  You are correct, he does not necessarily agree with or endorse the articles, but hopes that they will provide stimulating conversation/discussion/debate.  It seems that everyone is willing to state that the articles are "Crap" and then slam Al Tracy for them (even though he did not write them) but as of yet no one has stepped forward with any substantive claim of specific inaccuracies within the articles.
> 
> Again, Will Tracy is not a part of the Tracy Organization, nor does he support Al Tracy, according to his own words.  To condemn Al Tracy for Will's words is ridiculous.



I wasnt there so I wouldnt know, but there are a couple of people on this board that were very close personal students of Mr. Parker that have said there are inaccuracies within one of those articles. Particularly the claims that Mr. Parker was a racist and had hidden "religious" agendas in his kenpo practices. No disrespect intended, but I think it's ridiculous to post something like that under the "hopes" that it will provide stimulating conversation/discussion/debate. It creates animosity is what it does. Me personally, Ive met and practiced with people that started in Tracy's and they were darn good kenpoists. I guess I just dont understand. :idunno:


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## evenflow1121 (May 12, 2005)

Prove what, its all based on the writer's personal account, there are no facts to prove. To be quite honest its pretty much one giant opinion, written by whomever, after Mr Parker passed away.

You are absolutely right however, if Al Tracy didnt write it, he should not be condemned for it, that said, Tracy system produced both Bart Vale and Tom Dunne two guys I had the pleasure of meeting and watching in action, one of them passed away in '95 Mr. Dunne, the other is still around hopefully for many more years. I practice EPAK, I always have, however recently, where I live there are no EPAK schools that I know of, anymore, atleast not one that I can trace a true lineage back to an original EPAK instructor, once again that I know of, so I've been thinking about starting to train under some other system or something else, looking into bjj and JKD actually; however and recently, when people come to me and ask me about kenpo and who should they train with in the South Florida Area, I usually refer them to Bart Vale, because I know he is legitimate, (world champion shoot fighter, is on the Tracy Family Tree, 8th degree bb). From personal experience from people I have come into contact with that have studied both systems yes, they have preferred EPAK over the Tracy system, but neither system really is any better than the other, its the instructor that makes the all the difference in the world.


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## KenpoDave (May 12, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Okay, okay, okay Dave. I don't know you personally but know about your background and I respect that.
> 
> I am not trying to get into a shoving match here. But if someone posts an article that is full of crap, and that purposefully shoots down EPAK, I am going to speak up.



I expect you to, Jamie.  But, speak up about the ARTICLES, or the man who wrote the articles.  Look at the name of this thread, then read the articles and tell me where in any of them it says "Tracy's is better than EPAKK."  Will Tracy considered Ed Parker to be a good man, and to be his friend, and his articles seem derogatory only if you consider Ed Parker to be more than what he was, a man.

Go to the Tracy's website and find where Al Tracy is critical of Ed Parker.  Go to an Al Tracy seminar and try to catch him being critical of Ed Parker.  I don't think you can.


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## KenpoDave (May 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> The tracy's are merely a pale shadow of the source of thier inspiration.  Then to turn around and back stab!!!
> Wow



Yawn.  Let's try this again.  The man who wrote the articles in question is not a part of the Tracy organization, nor does he support the organization.  Google "Ed Parker's First Black Belt" and you can read it in his own words.


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## KenpoDave (May 12, 2005)

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> I wasnt there so I wouldnt know, but there are a couple of people on this board that were very close personal students of Mr. Parker that have said there are inaccuracies within one of those articles. Particularly the claims that Mr. Parker was a racist and had hidden "religious" agendas in his kenpo practices.



Okay.  Are they mormons?  Will stated that as a mormon, he recognized the symbolism, such as men tying the belt on the left and women on the right.  Veiled symbolism of this sort would fly well under the radar of a non-mormon.  



> No disrespect intended, but I think it's ridiculous to post something like that under the "hopes" that it will provide stimulating conversation/discussion/debate. It creates animosity is what it does. Me personally, Ive met and practiced with people that started in Tracy's and they were darn good kenpoists. I guess I just dont understand. :idunno:



Perhaps it does.  It doesn't have to.  Reasonable people can read the articles, form an opinion and go from there.  It interests me that so many are so concerned about Will Tracy's degrading of Ed Parker that they have to hurl insults at the entire Tracy System and Al Tracy.  This is what I don't understand.

What if everything Will Tracy writes is in fact true?  Does that mean Circling Destruction doesn't work?

Hmmm, maybe it does.  Question, if a kenpo instructor is less than perfect, then, does his kenpo have no value?


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## Dr. Kenpo (May 23, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> This series of articles was written by Will Tracy (there are three Tracy brothers; Jim, Al, Will), my understanding is that Will is not associated with the Tracy Kenpo organization any longer. However, since these articles were on the official Tracy webpage for a number of years, any reasonable person would hold the Tracy organization at least partially responsible.
> 
> The pages were eventually taken off the webpage (probably 3/4 years go), but then last year were reposted on Ted Sumners site (Mr. Sumner is a high rank, I want to say 9th in Tracys Kenpo). I would note that Mr. Sumner has obliquely stated that he does not necessarily agree with those articles. If you really want to get your mad-on, go to his site and read some of the other articles in that series.
> 
> Lamont


Let me add that when the site first went up, it was owned, controlled by Will Tracy. When Master Al took over, it was not there anymore. He didn't want it on his site.


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## TheEdge883 (May 24, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Okay.  Are they mormons?  Will stated that as a mormon, he recognized the symbolism, such as men tying the belt on the left and women on the right.  Veiled symbolism of this sort would fly well under the radar of a non-mormon.



I'm a mormon and I don't recognize the symbolism. 

Also, wasn't Will the head of a church of sex? I don't know, internet rumors  :idunno:


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## KenpoDave (May 25, 2005)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> I'm a mormon and I don't recognize the symbolism.
> 
> Also, wasn't Will the head of a church of sex? I don't know, internet rumors  :idunno:



Alright!  A comment about the content of the articles!  Are you an elder?  I have a neighbor who is, and I ran this by him several years ago, and he recognized it.  However, the two "evangelists" that came by the house about a month ago trying to recruit us to the mormon church did not.  Perhaps it is no longer used, or only used within elder's meetings?


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## Ceicei (May 25, 2005)

Sigh...

 I'm a life long Mormon also and have been going to the LDS Temples a long time (nearly 20 years). No, none of these in Kenpo have any bearing or relationship with what goes on in the church or in the Temple. There are no male/female with switching knotted belt sides, etc. within the LDS church/temple. It is stretching it to try to seek for any similarities.

 Sorry to disappoint you, but the stuff in the article is just that, myth, written by a person who does not understand the traditions/activities of those who practice this religion.

  Besides, this is off topic.  What does religion have to do with the difference between the styles of Tracy's and EPAK?

        - Ceicei


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## TheEdge883 (May 25, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Alright!  A comment about the content of the articles!  Are you an elder?  I have a neighbor who is, and I ran this by him several years ago, and he recognized it.  However, the two "evangelists" that came by the house about a month ago trying to recruit us to the mormon church did not.  Perhaps it is no longer used, or only used within elder's meetings?



Honestly, what does it matter? Wil Tracy is as crazy as a coot and what he says is about EPAK or Ed Parker himself for that matter doesn't make a lick of difference for me or my training.


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## Ray (May 25, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Alright! A comment about the content of the articles! Are you an elder? I have a neighbor who is, and I ran this by him several years ago, and he recognized it. However, the two "evangelists" that came by the house about a month ago trying to recruit us to the mormon church did not. Perhaps it is no longer used, or only used within elder's meetings?


I can assure you [as I have on another thread] that what I have learned in Kenpo over the last 20 years doesn't share symbololgy from LDS temple ceremonies.  I am LDS.  

I have seen a similarity about church mis-information in other conversations.  This week, for example, a co-worker was telling me all about the my church -- you see he "learned" all about it from his Lutheran minister.  Now, me, for example, I'm not going to a Mosque to learn about Judiasm...no sir, I'd go to a synagoge and listen from someone who might know what they're talking about.  So, feel free to invite those two "evangelists" into your house if you really want to learn more.  Yes, you can find material that is critical of the church, but get the inside scoop too so you can make an informed decision.

If the Tracy's were once Mormon and are not now, they may (or may not) have other issues that cause them to talk about the church.  Co-incidentally, if they left Parker and talk bad about him, do we see a pattern?


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## lonekimono10 (May 25, 2005)

WELL, WELL, i see that the Tracy Battle go's on, and if any one knows anything about this man  *i do*, hey guys we all know what he is about, and i don't care about who trains with him or not,Mr Seabrook said it best but i'll use my words *"you got something to say about Mr Parker then step up"*
  you know Tracy has this magic wand of his that he likes to wave around,
  hey you know if you check out some of his stuff you will fine that he likes to talk about *Dead people*, Al Tracy, Pat Tracy you can't talk to them (i tried)
  in fact it's like talking to a robot, what a friend.
  he will be like *shane ridding of into the sunset*


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## BruceCalkins (May 25, 2005)

I don't think we can really say Tracy Kenpo is Better than EPAKK but I can say it's different. My self of there was a Poll I would vote that I "Like EPAKK better and it is less confusing than Tracy. But That is opinion.


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## lonekimono10 (May 25, 2005)

But it don't matter,all this does is to get more people talking about tracys kenpo


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## The Kai (May 26, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> I don't think we can really say Tracy Kenpo is Better than EPAKK but I can say it's different. My self of there was a Poll I would vote that I "Like EPAKK better and it is less confusing than Tracy. But That is opinion.


How much do you know of EPAK or Tracy's kenpo???

Ironically Tracy's is an earlier version of Ed Parkers Kenpo


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## Ray (May 26, 2005)

I believe that either system can produce competent fighters.  Having learned EPAK first then having some of Tracys I can say that there were things in Tracys that I didn't care for; as well as good things in Tracys that I hadn't seen before.

But I perfer EPAK.


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## Rob Broad (May 26, 2005)

having studied both systems myself, I will stick with EPAK any day of the week.  Wil Tracy wrote an article that inflamed many people, but if Al Tracy had wanted he could have asked to have the article removed but it stayed on the site for many years.  Will Tracy worships at the Church of Sex, great if all the parishoners are hot young women, sign me up.  Ed Parker was a devout Mormon, all the power to him.  Al Tracy worships at the church of the almighty dollar.  He has removed many people from his family tree liek they never existed, and more than likely for the right price they would be back on the list, with a disclaimer saying it was a small oversight.

Plain and simple there would be no Tracy's Kenpo, with out Ed parker.


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## Blindside (May 26, 2005)

:deadhorse  :deadhorse  :deadhorse  :deadhorse  :deadhorse 

IT....WON'T....DIE....!!!


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## KenpoDave (May 26, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I'm a life long Mormon also and have been going to the LDS Temples a long time (nearly 20 years). No, none of these in Kenpo have any bearing or relationship with what goes on in the church or in the Temple. There are no male/female with switching knotted belt sides, etc. within the LDS church/temple. It is stretching it to try to seek for any similarities.



Like I said, I have heard it both ways from Mormons.



> Sorry to disappoint you, but the stuff in the article is just that, myth, written by a person who does not understand the traditions/activities of those who practice this religion.



Written by a mormon, actually.



> Besides, this is off topic.  What does religion have to do with the difference between the styles of Tracy's and EPAK?



While that is the title of the thread, the first article was about Will Tracy's articles.


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## KenpoDave (May 26, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> WELL, WELL, i see that the Tracy Battle go's on, and if any one knows anything about this man  *i do*, hey guys we all know what he is about, and i don't care about who trains with him or not,Mr Seabrook said it best but i'll use my words *"you got something to say about Mr Parker then step up"*
> you know Tracy has this magic wand of his that he likes to wave around,
> hey you know if you check out some of his stuff you will fine that he likes to talk about *Dead people*, Al Tracy, Pat Tracy you can't talk to them (i tried)
> in fact it's like talking to a robot, what a friend.
> he will be like *shane ridding of into the sunset*



I'm sorry George, what does this have to do with Will Tracy's articles?


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## KenpoDave (May 26, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> having studied both systems myself, I will stick with EPAK any day of the week.  Wil Tracy wrote an article that inflamed many people, but if Al Tracy had wanted he could have asked to have the article removed but it stayed on the site for many years.



He may have.  But he did not own or run the website at that time.



> He has removed many people from his family tree liek they never existed, and more than likely for the right price they would be back on the list, with a disclaimer saying it was a small oversight.



How many?  I know of only 2.



> Plain and simple there would be no Tracy's Kenpo, with out Ed parker.



A fact that Al Tracy readily admits.  Here's one, without James Mitose, there would be no EPAK...


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## Ray (May 26, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Like I said, I have heard it both ways from Mormons.


C'mon Dave, wake up and smell the postum.  Just because someone is a Mormon doesn't mean they understand Kenpo's history and traditions.  Just because someone practices Kenpo doesn't mean they understand doctrine from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  

Just as some martial artists are very proficient, there are also people who watch MA movies and claim to know how to fight because of it.  There are also some people who are members of the church who are very active and informed--and there are those who are "inactive" who claim to know--as well as inactive members who are "soured" on the church but still retain membership.  Again, as a Kenpo-ist and an active member of the Church, I can assure you that nothing in Kenpo seemed to bear any resemblance to anything in the Church.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> A fact that Al Tracy readily admits. Here's one, without James Mitose, there would be no EPAK...


No Tracy's Kenpo without Parker is an admitted fact.  Mitose & EPAK is highly debated and not proven {at least to my satisfaction}.


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## Dave Simmons (May 26, 2005)

Hi Rob,

Don't you love the Kenpo Community? Everybody is smarter and better than their brothers and sisters! Everybody has a right to their opinion. Regarding how the various organizations control their members/rank and demotions etc. is their business. I think Al Tracy is doing a little house cleaning.

Regarding Al Tracy equals dollars only...well Ed Parker as well as Al and many Kenpo BB were commercial and still are... I am not sure where you are going with that comment. 

Will Tracy and what he does or doesn't do is his business. Same as everybody else. However I agree with your right to disagree.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate


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## Rob Broad (May 26, 2005)

There have been several people removed from the Tracy family tree, including George Elmer, Dan Farmer, & J. Larry Taylor.  I am sure these are not the only 3 out there, the chances of me being familiar with all three of them are prety slim.

As for saying Al Tracy worships the dollars, well it seems to me to be the biggest motivation when removing people from his family tree.

I have studied both EPAK and Tracy's system and have found more diversity and personal growth in EPAK.  But I have said in the past better to study Tracy's Kenpo than no Kenpo at all.


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## MJS (May 26, 2005)

Lets try to get back onto the topic of the thread here folks.  I took the first post as having to do with a comparison of the two arts, not religion in the arts.

Thanks,

Mike


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## Dave Simmons (May 26, 2005)

Rob,

You know I get along with most people especially in the Kenpo World. Since my background is Tracys many EPAK folks I know especially the older crowd get along with me fine. The reason, we move with power and speed of the old guard.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate


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## Rob Broad (May 26, 2005)

Dave Simmons said:
			
		

> Rob,
> 
> You know I get along with most people especially in the Kenpo World. Since my background is Tracys many EPAK folks I know especially the older crowd get along with me fine. The reason, we move with power and speed of the old guard.
> 
> ...



The one good thing I have noticed from this thread regardless of roots or where a person is now in their martial arts career, We are all passioante about our Kenpo.


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## MJS (May 26, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The one good thing I have noticed from this thread regardless of roots or where a person is now in their martial arts career, We are all passioante about our Kenpo.



I agree!  And as I said in an earlier post, as long as we're happy training in our respective art, then that is all that should matter.  Its all a part of the Kenpo tree, just a different branch.

Mike


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## BruceCalkins (May 26, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> How much do you know of EPAK or Tracy's kenpo???
> 
> Ironically Tracy's is an earlier version of Ed Parkers Kenpo


Very Little about Tracy. I only had a limited experience with a few students and Enjoyed talking to Mr. McPeets (Sorry if I spelled that wrong) Son When they had their dojo In Batavia ny.

I trained in Parker Kenpo with Sensei Koch I was his senior Youth Instructor when he first moved to Alden, and Also had the fun of working with Mr Austin a few times. (Thanks To Mr. Koch)


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## The Kai (May 26, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> Very Little about Tracy. I only had a limited experience with a few students and Enjoyed talking to Mr. McPeets (Sorry if I spelled that wrong) Son When they had their dojo In Batavia ny.
> 
> I trained in Parker Kenpo with Sensei Koch I was his senior Youth Instructor when he first moved to Alden, and Also had the fun of working with Mr Austin a few times. (Thanks To Mr. Koch)


But Mr Austin is'nt a EPAKL guy is he?  How long were you with Mr Koch??


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## BruceCalkins (May 26, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> But Mr Austin is'nt a EPAKL guy is he? How long were you with Mr Koch??


Mr Austin Was and Trained with Mr. Mills and I am still with Mr. Koch as Much as Possible. I still count him as my instructor.. In his Dojo I wear a 1st Black belt and solid Gi. I have the utmost Respect for him and would never claim a title out side his rank in his school.


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## hammer (May 27, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> Mr Austin Was and Trained with Mr. Mills and I am still with Mr. Koch as Much as Possible. I still count him as my instructor.. In his Dojo I wear a 1st Black belt and solid Gi. I have the utmost Respect for him and would never claim a title out side his rank in his school.


"Well that dosent say much about being a soke, than dose it!! "


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## Akashiro Tamaya (May 27, 2005)

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> In his Dojo I wear a 1st Black belt and *solid Gi*.




The Gi must be pain to wear, could you not wear regular cotton dogi Bruce ?


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## Simon Curran (May 27, 2005)

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> The Gi must be pain to wear, could you not wear regular cotton dogi Bruce ?


I'm personally glad somebody finally entered a little homour into these exchanges...


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## MJS (May 27, 2005)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-MJS
-MT Moderator-


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## KenpoDave (May 27, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> No Tracy's Kenpo without Parker is an admitted fact.  Mitose & EPAK is highly debated and not proven {at least to my satisfaction}.



So, you don't believe that Mitose taught kenpo to Chow, and that Chow taught Parker?


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## Ray (May 27, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> So, you don't believe that Mitose taught kenpo to Chow, and that Chow taught Parker?


You know what?  When I first became interested in the history of Kenpo and read that Mitose taught Chow, I believed it.  Later when I read other opinions, I was undecided.

This debate has given me a new perspective on the subject of history and historians.

Best of all, I wasn't there - so what do you care what I believe?


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## KenpoDave (May 27, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> You know what?  When I first became interested in the history of Kenpo and read that Mitose taught Chow, I believed it.  Later when I read other opinions, I was undecided.
> 
> This debate has given me a new perspective on the subject of history and historians.
> 
> Best of all, I wasn't there - so what do you care what I believe?



Because whether Mitose taught Chow is/was never debated.  Your take on this historical fact would either lend credibility to or take away from your take on other history and traditions.


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## KenpoDave (May 27, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> This debate has given me a new perspective on the subject of history and historians.



Me too.  I have, by the way, done a little web research on Mormon temple rituals.  Most of the sites that I have run across that go into any real explanation appear to be written by former Mormons with a grudge, or "anti-Mormons."  The LDS sites don't have much information other than superficially.

I have, however, found no rituals that I recognize from kenpo, including the ritual of having single women wear their sash tied to one side while men and married women wear theirs on the opposite.  (Although I must admit that the kenpo flame bears a sort of resemblance to the compass and the square that LDS members have stitched into their sacred garments.  I tend to see a compass and square everywhere these days, though.)  I have found some wierd stuff, but like I said, from mostly anti-Mormon sites, so I tend to assume them to be less than credible overall.


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## Ray (May 27, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Because whether Mitose taught Chow is/was never debated. Your take on this historical fact would either lend credibility to or take away from your take on other history and traditions.


Apparently Chow debated that fact, as in the interview with Perkins in jul 05 Black Belt magazine.  And I'm pretty sure that I've seen it elsewhere.

Add to that the report in Parker's book 1 of infinite insights that what Mitose showed him in So Cal was pretty piss poor.  Contrast that with the glowing accounts that parker gave of Chow.  Mitose came down with "kenpo alzhiemers" or Chow learned to kick butt from someone who wasn't name Mitose.

If Chow had earned a 5th Dan in Judo before meeting up with Mitose {something I only recently discovered}; and if Chow had pretty much "run the streets" after his mother died, who's to know who he really hooked up with and what he learned.

I think the tracy's and all of the other pretenders to the throne are smart enough to know that the throne they can't sit upon is Parkerr's because he left too many books and witnesses to his history and knowledge.    they can't claim the Kajukenpo throne because too much of its history is well documented too.

So lets pick other guy's throne to take. Some con man, extortionist and murderer who claimed to be some "kick butt" martial arts guy - we'll get a piece of paper from him (while he was in prison), something that says "You are the sucessor."

Like I said, I haven't decided yet about Mitose/Chow.  If you can furnish some hard documentation that shows otherwise (like something that shows Mitose could move and fight; and that he did more than have someone sign a black belt cert for Chow; chow who incidentally had a 5th in Judo and knew some kung fu forms--but never learned any Kung fu from his dad); then I'd look at that documentation and see if I concurred.  I'm just getting too old to believe everything everyone tells me.

No offense intended.


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## Ray (May 27, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> (Although I must admit that the kenpo flame bears a sort of resemblance to the compass and the square that LDS members have stitched into their sacred garments...I have found some wierd stuff, but like I said, from mostly anti-Mormon sites, so I tend to assume them to be less than credible overall.


I'll compare my garms to the flame patch tonight.  I've never noticed any compairson before.


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## KenpoDave (May 28, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Apparently Chow debated that fact, as in the interview with Perkins in jul 05 Black Belt magazine.  And I'm pretty sure that I've seen it elsewhere.



Hmm, then where did Chow learn his kenpo?



> If Chow had earned a 5th Dan in Judo before meeting up with Mitose {something I only recently discovered}; and if Chow had pretty much "run the streets" after his mother died, who's to know who he really hooked up with and what he learned.



A 5th dan in judo is not kenpo.  Neither is what he learned running the streets.  His kenpo training came from Mitose.  And judo was not what he taught Ed Parker.



> Like I said, I haven't decided yet about Mitose/Chow.  If you can furnish some hard documentation that shows otherwise (like something that shows Mitose could move and fight;



What sort of documentation shows that someone could move and fight?  How about the fact that Emperado calls Mitose a "master instructor?"



> and that he did more than have someone sign a black belt cert for Chow;



It is more than Chow did for Parker.  The signature on Parker's certificate that is circulating on the internet does not match the signature on Chow's application for a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.  Parker may have had another black belt certificate from Chow, but the one on the internet is not it.



> chow who incidentally had a 5th in Judo and knew some kung fu forms--but never learned any Kung fu from his dad)



Again, a 5th dan in judo and knowledge of some kung fu forms does not mean that Chow did not learn Kenpo from Mitose.  How about reading Mitose's book?  There is page after page of Chow being the uke for Thomas Young and for Mitose.  While it does not certify that Mitose could move and fight, it certainly is hard evidence that Chow trained under Mitose and accepted his role as "junior" to both Mitose and Thomas Young.


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## KenpoDave (May 28, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Apparently Chow debated that fact, as in the interview with Perkins in jul 05 Black Belt magazine.



What did Parker say about it?



> Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
> (First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)
> By John Corbett
> 
> ...



So, do you believe that Mitose taught kenpo to William Chow?


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## KenpoDave (May 28, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> I'll compare my garms to the flame patch tonight.  I've never noticed any compairson before.



I apologize, it is not the flame of which I am thinking, but rather the little belt patch.  The way the knot overlaps looks like a sort of compass and square.


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## Dave Simmons (May 28, 2005)

Just a little heads up for you folks! Professor Chow had exposure to judo and jiu jitsu he never practiced those MA. According to Sig Kaufferath (Danzen Jiu Jitsu) who knew both Mitose, Chow and Emperado. Sig stated that Chow did not like falling. Chow only watched these MA to work on defenses against them. Chow did not study Gung Fu according to the old Hawaii sources.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate


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## Ray (May 28, 2005)

Dave Simmons said:
			
		

> Just a little heads up for you folks! Professor Chow had exposure to judo and jiu jitsu he never practiced those MA. According to Sig Kaufferath (Danzen Jiu Jitsu) who knew both Mitose, Chow and Emperado. Sig stated that Chow did not like falling. Chow only watched these MA to work on defenses against them. Chow did not study Gung Fu according to the old Hawaii sources.


In an interview of Mr. Emperado, I believe on John Bishop's web site, Mr. Emperado is quoted as saying the Chow had a "5th degree black belt in judo."

Personally, I'm not convinced that Mitose taught Chow - and to put it another way, I'm not certain he didn't either.  I may never know, and it probably won't make a whole lot of difference in my life.


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## Ray (May 28, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> I apologize, it is not the flame of which I am thinking, but rather the little belt patch. The way the knot overlaps looks like a sort of compass and square.


I don't know about that.  The flame patch looks more like the shape of the evil big brothers of Casper the Friendly Ghost than anything else (to me).

I did notice several similarities between my instructor's studio {in Utah} and my mormon meeting house:  They both had floors, walls, doors and windows.  Oh, yes, they were both carpeted.  Maybe there is a connection between EPAK and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?


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## KenpoDave (May 28, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Maybe there is a connection between EPAK and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?



My dojo shows connections to things that interest me.

Joseph Smith used the rituals of freemasonry when he made up LDS.  Perhaps Parker did the same when he made up EPAK.

Anyway, you asked for hard evidence that Mitose taught Chow.  I gave you Ed Parker's words (with a reference as to where you can look it up), as well as Mitose's book where Chow is pictured as a student junior to Mitose.  You are still not convinced.  You refuse to accept fact when making up your mind.  Makes you a little less than credible when discusssing history, traditions, and facts in other areas, so I see no point in continuing here, only to offer that Chow's brother, John Chow-Hoon, taught a martial art that he called Kosho Ryu Kenpo, and used the same crest as Mitose.

I would love to see some evidence of Chow's 5th dan in Judo, though.


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## Ray (May 29, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Anyway, you asked for hard evidence that Mitose taught Chow. I gave you Ed Parker's words (with a reference as to where you can look it up), as well as Mitose's book where Chow is pictured as a student junior to Mitose. You are still not convinced. You refuse to accept fact when making up your mind. Makes you a little less than credible when discusssing history, traditions, and facts in other areas,


Thanks for the kind words.  Although I haven't made up my mind yet, and I haven't looked at the references you gave yet.  Of course, since I haven't made up my mind, you can't accuse me of not accepting fact - I'm still in the process.  At this point, sorting out the history of kenpo isn't my number one priority.  Just be patient with me and continue to warmly fellowship me.


			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Joseph Smith used the rituals of freemasonry when he made up LDS. Perhaps Parker did the same when he made up EPAK.


Dave, I've read all the anti-Mormon literature and used to repeat it to Mormons that I worked with in Utah {for over twelve years}; so if you're going for the shock effect it ain't going to work.  If Parker made up EPAK from Mormonism, then that would make the Mormons some pretty efficient "Christian soldiers." [/QUOTE]





			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> so I see no point in continuing here


That's the best thing you've said so far.


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## Sigung86 (May 30, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> There have been several people removed from the Tracy family tree, including George Elmer, Dan Farmer, & J. Larry Taylor.  I am sure these are not the only 3 out there, the chances of me being familiar with all three of them are prety slim.
> 
> As for saying Al Tracy worships the dollars, well it seems to me to be the biggest motivation when removing people from his family tree.
> 
> I have studied both EPAK and Tracy's system and have found more diversity and personal growth in EPAK.  But I have said in the past better to study Tracy's Kenpo than no Kenpo at all.




Lest we forget, and in the spirit of the whole brouhahahahah here, one more name you can add to the list is Dave Simmons.


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## The Kai (May 30, 2005)

Actually Parker always pointed to Chow as his influrnce.  parker never said mitose alone.  I was taught by mitose and chow.

Mitose was the publisher/author of said book, that's probably why Chow was seen as the Jr in the photo's


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## Dave Simmons (May 30, 2005)

"Lest we forget, and in the spirit of the whole brouhahahahah here, one more name you can add to the list is Dave Simmons."

On the contrary, I have not been removed from the Tracy Family Tree. You are incorrect.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate
e-mail: twindragondave@hotmail.com


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## KenpoDave (May 30, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Dave, I've read all the anti-Mormon literature and used to repeat it to Mormons that I worked with in Utah {for over twelve years}; so if you're going for the shock effect it ain't going to work.



Yeah, that sure came out harsher than intended.  I am speaking of the fact that Smith was a freemason and borrowed rituals and secrecy from freemasonry and incorporated them into LDS.  I am not suggesting that he simply "made up mormonism" and I apologize for how that came off.


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## Ray (May 30, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Yeah, that sure came out harsher than intended. I am speaking of the fact that Smith was a freemason and borrowed rituals and secrecy from freemasonry and incorporated them into LDS. I am not suggesting that he simply "made up mormonism" and I apologize for how that came off.


Thanks Dave!  I've got nothing against Tracys Kenpo; in fact, I studied it for a little while and enjoyed it.  You're thoughts on Chow & Mitose could certainly be right--I like to hear/research as much as I can about a subject before I make a decision {doesn' make me right, just slow to decide, I guess}.

There's just so much to the history, with so many people recalling things somewhat differently.  Hard to know of a surety.

Similar to Kenpo history: you seem to have a good grasp of LDS from one side of the fence; you know, there is another side to it.  A good place to begin would be to invite a couple missionaries in and to listen with an open mind.


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## KenpoDave (May 30, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Similar to Kenpo history: you seem to have a good grasp of LDS from one side of the fence; you know, there is another side to it.  A good place to begin would be to invite a couple missionaries in and to listen with an open mind.



They were coming by on a pretty regular basis and my wife and I were enjoying the dialogue.  I will PM you...


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