# Frustration with training frequency of Tai Chi and application



## BooBoo (Apr 24, 2008)

Lately I've been getting frustrated with my Tai Chi training.

First of all our class is two times a week, and I try to practice 30 minutes to an hour a day outside of class (when time permits) but while the Chi-Gong exercises I practice at home and the forms are good, obviously I can't practice techniques that will improve my defense applications on my own and without proper instruction.  

After all, I see a lot of crappy Sanshou fights on youtube and I don't want to turn into one of these kick-boxing fighters that claim to have trained in Kung Fu.  I want to learn how to confidently without thinking, react to an attack and defend using proper Tai Chi.

What would posters advise?  Should I perservere?  Should I change martial arts??

Tai Chi is a very deep art, but sometimes I think a modern schedule of work and study doesn't permit the dedication and time needed to master it.

I asked my teacher if we can have the class 3 times a week and place more emphasis on push hand exercises and fighting applications of Tai Chi.  My teacher is a good teacher, but I don't want to continue investing time in Tai Chi if it won't help me in practical defense situation.  He agreed in principle but we have yet to see if and when he will actually make the class 3 times a week.

Alternatively, there is an Aikido class in my club that trains 3 times a week during most of the year and 4 times a week during May.

So my question is, what should I do?  How do I measure my progress?  How do I decide whether to invest more time in Tai Chi or just switch to Aikido (whose classes are almost all entirely application exercises with no forms)?  

If the teacher makes the class 3 times a week, is that enough?

I am starting to get frustrated and I don't like the idea of training with doubts in my mind or impatience.  I definitely feel I have improved in some aspects after having trained for 2 years in Tai Chi, but I don't know if it's enough or if I should keep investing more time in it.  But frankly I am not satisfied at my reaction to attacks and ability to defend.

If anyone has had similar experiences when they first began training in Tai Chi I would appreciate any advice out there on what to do.

Thank you.


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## mograph (Apr 24, 2008)

I think it makes sense to train at a school that serves your goals. With all respect to your Tai Chi school, it doesn't seem to be doing that for you. 

Two years is not much time, but it was enough to learn something about yourself, which has great value. The time was not wasted, so you can feel free to move on, making use of the lesson you learned there about yourself. In my opinion, if you stay there, you would not have made use of that lesson. 

If the school is not working for you, move on. Find a Tai Chi school that teaches applications at the depth you desire, or join the Aikido school. 

My 2 cents.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 24, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> Tai Chi is a very deep art, but sometimes I think a modern schedule of work and study doesn't permit the dedication and time needed to master it.
> ...
> My teacher is a good teacher, but I don't want to continue investing time in Tai Chi if it won't help me in practical defense situation. ...
> 
> ...


Two years isn't long enough to really grasp taiji, let alone use it as a martial art, considering the amount of time you're putting in every day. Total training time and your mindset are two very important factors. The more you train every day with the correct mindset, the fewer years it will take to reach the goal.

Because of that, taiji won't be "practical" until you make it a part of you and from your post, you're a long way from that. Again, mindset is the key obstacle that people can't accept, therefore they make progress very slowly. Taiji doesn't work like other martial arts and frankly, most people never wrap their heads around that fact. The sooner you do, the better.

I think that training aikido AND taiji at the same time is a great idea. You'll get reinforcement of basically the same principles and more class time. As you say, aikido is more application oriented. 

But to succeed in either one of them, you have to surrender to the ideas they are trying to teach you.

Good luck.


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## BooBoo (Apr 25, 2008)

Thanks a lot for the replies guys.

Formosa Ninja I read your post with great interest and I have some comments and questions:

As far as combining with Aikido, I was initially against this idea because I always believed that it is better to concentrate and specialise in one style rather than mixing (I think Yang Luchan was a master in only one style of Tai Chi which he practiced continously), but if you feel that the similarities are close enough I will definitely look into it.

It's difficult for me currently to put more than an hour a day in training, but my understanding from my teacher was that we should practice a minimum of half an hour a day, but that it will obviously take much longer to become proficient, he ideally says we should try to reach two hours a day of practice.

Regarding your other points.  How do I make Tai Chi a part of me and what am I doing wrong in terms of my way of thinking?  Sometimes I feel relaxed and calm and that I am starting to 'get it' and I feel like I'm in a state where I can defend decently during sparring with friends.

Other times I feel like I'm completely useless in this art, and always tense.

I think part of the problem is that I except results in a very linear fashion.  Before Tai Chi, I trained in Muay Thai for 3 years, and that was an easy art to pick up.  Could this have corrupted my thinking?

Is it simply a matter of time that I need to improve my way of thinking?  More patience?  Have you yourself managed to master Tai Chi and did you have the same initial problems and frustrations?


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## ggg214 (Apr 25, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> Lately I've been getting frustrated with my Tai Chi training.
> 
> First of all our class is two times a week, and I try to practice 30 minutes to an hour a day outside of class (when time permits) but while the Chi-Gong exercises I practice at home and the forms are good, obviously I can't practice techniques that will improve my defense applications on my own and without proper instruction.
> 
> ...


 
i don't want to say to you that taiji can't fight.but i do believe that in beginning level, taiji can't fight. 

i think you should know how the taiji work for you in a fight before you started your training. taiji should throw away your natural power, and rebuild your body constructure for the whole body power. but before you build up your body, you don't have enough power to fight back, even defense. so there is a taiji saying: taiji kungfu is coming from being beaten.

how to measure your time is enough or not, let's see older practitioners training taiji. when my master has trained taiji, he started 4 o'clock every morning, and lasted until noon. if he had time, he would spend whole day on this. you have only 3 times a week, it's really far from enough.

back to the topic, if you doubt taiji and want to gain ability of fighting in short time, go to other MA, i think it's better.


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## Jade Tigress (Apr 25, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> I am starting to get frustrated and I don't like the idea of training with doubts in my mind or impatience.  I definitely feel I have improved in some aspects after having trained for 2 years in Tai Chi, but I don't know if it's enough or if I should keep investing more time in it.  But frankly I am not satisfied at my reaction to attacks and ability to defend.
> 
> If anyone has had similar experiences when they first began training in Tai Chi I would appreciate any advice out there on what to do.
> 
> Thank you.



I've had similar experience in the 2 arts I trained/train, both southern Chinese styles.

My first style, Sil Lum Kung Fu, I trained for about 2 years then we moved out of state and I had to find another school. My current style, Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis, I will be training for 2 years in July. 

I understand your frustration. It really takes a long time to get things into  muscle memory so you just react without thinking. I'm still working on it and I would it expect Tai Chi to be an art that takes longer than most to obtain this. 

You can change styles, or you can cross-train in something that has a quicker route to applications. After 2 years of training, if you aren't feeling the pace of the art works with the time you can dedicate, you may want to consider it. For me, I am at least seeing progress to the point I am motivated to stick with the art even though it's a difficult one. 

You can always try out the Aikido school and see what you think, explore your options for the best fit for _you_. Keep us posted. :asian:


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 25, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> Formosa Ninja I read your post with great interest and I have some comments and questions:



That's Formosa NEIJIA, not ninja. But it's a cute slip up.  You're the first to make that mistake/joke.  



> As far as combining with Aikido, I was initially against this idea because I always believed that it is better to concentrate and specialise in one style rather than mixing (I think Yang Luchan was a master in only one style of Tai Chi which he practiced continously), but if you feel that the similarities are close enough I will definitely look into it.


Well yes, but Yang Lu-chan trained a whole lot more that 30 minutes a day, right? Of course you don't NEED to do more than one art if you can get enough correct instruction and practice time. But in your situation, I think taking both would be a good idea. For what a blended aikido/taiji practice would look like, check out Peter Ralston at www.chenghsin.com



> Regarding your other points.  How do I make Tai Chi a part of me and what am I doing wrong in terms of my way of thinking?


You answer your own question here:



> I think part of the problem is that I except results in a very linear fashion.  Before Tai Chi, I trained in Muay Thai for 3 years, and that was an easy art to pick up.  Could this have corrupted my thinking?


It's not a matter of Muay Thai having corrupted your thinking. You probably sought out that art because it worked in ways that you already thought -- linearly.



> Is it simply a matter of time that I need to improve my way of thinking?  More patience?  Have you yourself managed to master Tai Chi and did you have the same initial problems and frustrations?


Haha. I haven't mastered anything. And I dare say that no one has. There are just people further along than others.

But what made a big difference for me was to let go of my preconceived notions and surrender to the training -- "fighting" (please notice the quotation marks) especially had to go. That's just not what we do in IMA. It took me years to realize that and progress only came after that.  Strangely  aikido is even clearer than taiji about that aspect.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> Lately I've been getting frustrated with my Tai Chi training.
> 
> First of all our class is two times a week, and I try to practice 30 minutes to an hour a day outside of class (when time permits) but while the Chi-Gong exercises I practice at home and the forms are good, obviously I can't practice techniques that will improve my defense applications on my own and without proper instruction.
> 
> ...


 
2 years is not long enough and 30 minutes a day is not enough either. But I feel your pain, in today&#8217;s world for the average working adult it is hard to find the time and the people interested that will train the MA of it.

Per Tung Ying Jie you should practice the long form 3 times a day and I Believe he said after about 6 years you will understand it. However if you train it less it will take longer. Meaning the average time it takes to do the long form once is about 20 minutes which means 1 hour a day JUST for the long form if you train 30 minutes a day it then goes to 12 years to understand the long form. This is not including push hands and all its variations and weapons forms and if you are in the Tung Lineage the fast forms as well. I do not necessarily agree with the time on this, different people are different in their understanding but I am certainly not going to debate the understanding of Tung Ying Jie as it applies to things Taiji, he had a far superior understanding of it than I.

1 time 2 times 3 times a week may or may not make any difference it all depends on how you train outside of class. Push hands is great but I can tell you my views and applications within push hands are VERY different now than when I started training Taiji. IT takes time and training and I will also say I believe I feel your pain here as well. Many that train Taiji today do not want to train the martial side of it and many do not want to train push hands (if they train it at all) past 2 person stationary. This is my GREATEST frustration about taiji these days, so great in fact I am considering taking time to think about it for a bit and possibly train something else. Not to better understand taiji but to give myself a break and possibly better understand myself and what I REALLY want out of CMA. 

Push hands; what do you train and what have you learned?

Combining Taiji with any other art in my opinion changes it. It does not have the same approach to fighting as Aikido nor the same applications. Nothing wrong with Aikido it is a good art but combining styles to try an understand one in my opinion does not necessarily help you understand either. You end up understanding how to fight and how to defend yourself but not necessarily as Taiji is intended to be used. Aikido is VERY focused on circular movement and IMO taiji has a different approach and if you combine it with another style you are short cutting the martial arts but not your taiji.

Taiji takes a lot of patients and even after years of training it (like any MA) it can be INCREDIBLY frustrating. 

If you want to train Aikido then train Aikido if you want to train Taiji then train Taiji but do not train Aikido to understand Taiji or train Taiji to understand Aikido it will not work.


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## BooBoo (Apr 25, 2008)

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Formosa Neijia I'm sorry for the mistake, I should have figured a Chinese Martial Arts enthusiast wouldn't use the name Ninja!

I will try not to succumb to impatience and to crank up my practice to 1-2 hours a day.  I don't think I can do more than that with my current schedule unfortunately.  

I'm still reluctant to begin cross-training.  While I am tempted, I think I should build up a more solid base in Tai Chi before combining it with Aikido practice.  Plus we're going to start a Tai Chi sword form in another month, so I'm kind of looking forward to that.  I've never trained in weapons.

But in future, when time permits, I will try out some Aikido to compare and learn.

I will definitely keep everyone posted as I learn and observe new things and as I progress in my training.  Thanks all for the insight.

Hope everyone here realises their potential and goals with respect to the wonderful (and incredibly difficult) Chinese Internal Martial Arts.


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## DaPoets (Apr 25, 2008)

I posted this last night from my cell phone but it decided not to allow me to hit the quick reply button...

I thought I would speak of time spent training.  For over a decade I would train only a couple times a week (2-3 times a week) and for about an hour and a half per session.  As of January my schedule changed greatly so now my ability to train more often and longer has been paying off greatly by my increased awareness, strength, balance, posture, agility, stamina, and clarity.  Here is my current schedule.

Wake up: about 10 min of Taoist Tai Chi exercises.

Monday, Wednesday, Thursday
5:15pm open tai chi branch, practice for 45 min.
6pm - 7pm teach beginners classes
7pm - 8:30pm practice

Tuesday Advanced training in Toronto for 3 hours (7pm - 10pm)

Friday 
7pm - 8:30pm practice

Saturday 
9-10am teach beginners
10am - 11:30am practice

Sunday
day of rest/house & yard work/ etc...

So that's roughly over 15 hours a week that I am doing tai chi (split between teaching and my own practice)


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## DaPoets (Apr 25, 2008)

You mentioned taijijian is starting for you next month BooBoo and I just recently started taijijian and found it greatly helped my taijiquan.  taijidao is also a great compliment as well.  I'm sure you will also find that these will only help your taijiquan progression.


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## BooBoo (Apr 25, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for your informative message.  I have come across many of your posts while browsing through the Tai Chi section.

Sorry for not replying earlier, for some reason I missed your post.  Maybe it was a system problem or something??

Anyways.  I have only learned two forms to date, which my teacher teaches over and over.  This is the 56 step Chen and the 24 step Yang.  I really like the Chen form, it's great in developing posture, balance and agility.

I'm not sure when he will teach us longer forms.  He did teach one of the WU forms last year, but I missed it because I couldn't attend at the time.

Most of the push hands I have done is 2 hands, and most of it is stationary.  We do the basic one with one hand pushing and another one (don't know how to describe it exactly) with 2 hands pushing and defending in a sort of circular movement.

As for non-stationary.  Sometimes the teacher lets the students have a go trying to trip the others and make them lose their balance in a sort of free-for all push hand exercise.  That's ok as well, in terms of learning balance and understanding body movements of your opponent.

However, the weakness is for me learning to block, without thinking, kicks, punches, knees and so on, and to be able to react effectively to wrestling/grappling moves and to locks and such.  Sometimes I feel like I will get there eventually, and other times I get so frustrated and wonder if our teacher should be giving us more exercises and emphasing more push hand exercises.

Sometimes we can go for a week or two without doing any push hands.

Have you yourself reached a level of Tai Chi where you feel that you are capable of using it to defend and attack in a real-life situation?  If so, how long have you trained in Tai Chi and often did you practice roughly?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> Sorry for not replying earlier, for some reason I missed your post. Maybe it was a system problem or something??



No problem the post times are virtually the same it is just a function of posting



BooBoo said:


> Anyways. I have only learned two forms to date, which my teacher teaches over and over. This is the 56 step Chen and the 24 step Yang. I really like the Chen form, it's great in developing posture, balance and agility.
> 
> I'm not sure when he will teach us longer forms. He did teach one of the WU forms last year, but I missed it because I couldn't attend at the time.



This sounds like my first Sifu's class he knew a lot of forms but not all in depth and ultimately his fighting was Sanshou. He was a graduate of a physical education university in Shandong.



BooBoo said:


> Most of the push hands I have done is 2 hands, and most of it is stationary. We do the basic one with one hand pushing and another one (don't know how to describe it exactly) with 2 hands pushing and defending in a sort of circular movement.
> 
> As for non-stationary. Sometimes the teacher lets the students have a go trying to trip the others and make them lose their balance in a sort of free-for all push hand exercise. That's ok as well, in terms of learning balance and understanding body movements of your opponent.



My first Sifu taught push hands more like wrestling and this is not push hands it is wrestling. 2 people stand on a line and try to pull or push the other off balance, is this what you are doing?

Push hands, the way I was taught by my Yang style Sifu;
Single hand stationary, single hand moving linear, single hand moving random, double hand stationary, double had moving linear aka 3 step, 4 corners, just plain moving without pattern, a 1 step that is rather fast, and then free style. 

If you try and push my Sifu with force, like my first sifu trained me, you will likely end up on the ground with out knowing much of how you got there and with him using little or no force at all. This is taijiquan, it is redirection, absorption and patients...lots and lots of patients. He is the only person that I have no idea is going to lock me with Qinna until I am locked. 



BooBoo said:


> However, the weakness is for me learning to block, without thinking, kicks, punches, knees and so on, and to be able to react effectively to wrestling/grappling moves and to locks and such. Sometimes I feel like I will get there eventually, and other times I get so frustrated and wonder if our teacher should be giving us more exercises and emphasing more push hand exercises.



I think you need to work more on stick and follow before worrying about blocks kicks and punches



BooBoo said:


> Sometimes we can go for a week or two without doing any push hands.
> 
> 
> Have you yourself reached a level of Tai Chi where you feel that you are capable of using it to defend and attack in a real-life situation? If so, how long have you trained in Tai Chi and often did you practice roughly?



The frustration with push hands is that it is hard to find, or at least hard for me to find, someone that wants to REALLY train it. I use to know a lot of people but things change and they are no longer around so now it is rare. 

Taiji for self-defense to be used as taiji is suppose to be used takes a long time and 2 years is not long enough. 

almost 17 years of training and I still have a lot to learn I am not at the level of my Sifu and I likely never will be. HE has been at this for over 50 years and when he started he could train it for hours a day. I do not have that luxury anymore. About 10 years ago I could train it 1 to 2 hours or more a day, I was single and worked second shift so I had nothing but time during the day. Now I try very hard to get in 1 hour a day but to be honest I am lucky if I get 30 minutes lately.


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## BooBoo (Apr 25, 2008)

The main ones that I appear to be doing based on the names you have provided are single hand stationary and double hand stationary.

The moving one I was referring to is that basically we use double hands and move about the room trying to push or trip the other person or make him lose his balance.  At the same time, we do it to learn to relax and learn how to react to the opponents pushing and movements.  It's not bad since you can develop an understanding of your balance and your opponents balance and movement.  But no strikes are allowed, it is only using two hands while moving and pushing or tripping and absorbing and defending.

My Sifu is good in Tai Chi, I've fought him in a push hand exercise like the one I described but I never attempt anymore to use too much force, because the few times I have used it, it wasn't pretty (and it makes it easier for him to make me lose my balance and to make me fall).

He knows all the forms, and I think he's proficient based on his smooth movements and his skill in push hands and fighting (I've seen him fight some of the students, he's amazing, he's impossible to hit).

But his main expertise is Xinyi, although he knows Baguazhong and Tai Chi also.  He teaches Tai Chi in his class for 1.5 hours, two times a week, and then gives an extra optional 30 minutes of Xinyi animal forms after class.

We're trying to convince him to increase the emphasis on push hands and applications and to make the class 3 times a week, he's a bit reluctant for some reason, but I think there's a chance he might give in.

I have felt improvements in some aspects, but the frustrating part isn't just the length of time.  According to my teacher, there are very few genuine CMA instructors in China anymore, most are commercialized.  He says that the Chinese traditional inheritance of the genuine martial arts has been weakened by the Communist Govt. in China during Mao's time (especially during the Cultural Revolution I believe).  

I think he's genuine, he has an excellent reputation here, and people have challenged him during his class from other classes in the club or from other schools and accused him of being a fraud and he beat some of them so severely and sent them to hospital.  Of course he warned them before that he assumes no liability or responsibility for whatever happens to them.  So I'm satisfied that he's proficient.  My only doubt is if I will ever approach a fraction of his skill.


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## Frost (Apr 25, 2008)

In two years you should have been doing applications by now.  Tai Chi is an art that many people have billed as something done solely for health.  As a result you have schools that are light on applications.  

Do you have anyone in the class that feels the same way?  If so, can you train with them on the side and go over applications with them?


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## pete (Apr 25, 2008)

coupla points boo-boo:

1. don't worry about # of forms, and i'm not sure learning multiple styles (chen, yang, wu) at this point is really a good thing.  I do 1 form, and 1 form only, albeit there is a long, short, and walking versions, it is the same 
form, same style.  

2. push hands should tie directly back to your form practice to improve posture, balance, and quality of movement... it should also tie directly back to your martial applications.

3. tai chi is an internal martial art, and therefore should be done using full conscious mind. unlike 'external' arts, the idea is not to memorize scenarios and act without thinking... 

pete.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2008)

BooBoo said:


> The main ones that I appear to be doing based on the names you have provided are single hand stationary and double hand stationary.
> 
> The moving one I was referring to is that basically we use double hands and move about the room trying to push or trip the other person or make him lose his balance. At the same time, we do it to learn to relax and learn how to react to the opponents pushing and movements. It's not bad since you can develop an understanding of your balance and your opponents balance and movement. But no strikes are allowed, it is only using two hands while moving and pushing or tripping and absorbing and defending.
> 
> ...


 
The cultural revolution did a number on a lot of things in China bit ther are still some real good masters there, they are just hard to find. The Cultural revolution taught them one thing very well "the nail that sticks up gets pounded down"

When I started Taiji my first sifu taught multiple styles and I will admit it was a blast. I trained Yang, Chen and Wu with him but I found that no matter what I did I could not keep Wu out of any of the forms so I had to stop Wu style. I was able to keep Chen and Yang apart and to be honest if I found a Chen teacher that was as skilled at Chen as my second sifu is at Yang I very likely would have stayed with Chen. But I found my Yang sifu and trained with him. I recently tried to go back and train Chen again and continue Yang and I found that although the external form is easy for me to keep apart (and this is likely going to cause trouble here on MTbut) the internal stuff is not. Chen has a different approach to things internal, particularly in application, so I stopped training Chen, but I will admit it is hard, every now and then I get the urge to go back and train the forms again but so far I stick with Yang and only Yang as far as Taiji goes. But if any of the Chen family or anyone of their senior students ever moves to my area I have a decision to make.

Xingyiquan is another style I like a lot but Xingyis approach to fighting is vastly different form Taiji but I learn this form a different sifu. Baguas approach is also very different from Taiji but I do not have enough experience with Bagua to comment further.

This may also caused problems on MT but I think you might want to look into a few books to get the idea of what Taiji is and does.

I wish I could recommend Tung Ying Chiehs Red Book but the translation is not too good. But since my wife is Chinese and my sifu was a student of Sifu Tung I was able to figure it out and it is very good but the translation makes it hard to understand and in some places it is just wrong.

Yang Chengfus book The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan is good. Also, although I have not read it yet I am told it is good, Fu Zhongwens book Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan might be good to check out and Cheng Menching's book Cheng Tzus Thirteen Treatises on Tai Chi Chuan is good as is Chen Zhengleis Chen Style Taijiquan, Sword and Broadsword is good one to read for Chen style.

I am sure there are some good books on Wu but I have not looked for them so I cannot recommend any.


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## marlon (Apr 26, 2008)

I recently tried to go back and train Chen again and continue Yang and I found that although the external form is easy for me to keep apart (and this is likely going to cause trouble here on MTbut) the internal stuff is not. Chen has a different approach to things internal, particularly in application, so I stopped training Chen, but I will admit it is hard, every now and then I get the urge to go back and train the forms again but so far I stick with Yang and only Yang as far as Taiji goes. But if any of the Chen family or anyone of their senior students ever moves to my area I have a decision to make.


Please   please please explain.

Marlon


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2008)

It's all in the fajing


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## mograph (Apr 26, 2008)

Marlon, could you describe the difference between Chen and Yang internally? 

Thanks ...


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## marlon (Apr 27, 2008)

mograph said:


> Marlon, could you describe the difference between Chen and Yang internally?
> 
> Thanks ...


 

I wish i was knowledgeable enough to do so, however, i was only qouting Xue Sheng.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Apr 27, 2008)

Just to mention that although aikido does focus on applications in its trainig, imho it takes years of practice to make aikido effective against an attacker.  Like taiji aikido is an art built around princioples that do not use brute force and there are many sublties that go into making a technique workj that are not obivious to the observer nor are they easy to execute.  I do not want you to switch and find your self in the same place.  Both arts require a substantial time investment in order to be functional

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## East Winds (Apr 27, 2008)

mograph,

Chen style develops its energy through the practice of chansujin (silk reeling).  Yang style develops its energy through chousijin (drawing silk). In Yang style we "mobilize jin as though drawing silk" (yun jin ru chousi). The mainstay of Chen style is fajin, the mainstay of Yang style is pungjin. Yang style of course develops and issues fajin. but it is "concealed within" and not as obvious as in Chen. 

Hope this helps

Very best wishes


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## marlon (Apr 27, 2008)

please define pungjin

many thanks,
marlon


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## East Winds (Apr 27, 2008)

marlon,

At its most basic level[FONT=Verdana, Arial], think of an inflated bladder. The air inside holds the bladder so that the surface is firm. The air inside is soft and relaxed and creates an internal pressure. When force is applied by forcing the bladder against the ground it does not collapse. The bladder just bounces. When the body is really relaxed, extended, and open, then the body can become more like a bladder,- springy and distributing energy evenly.

Very best wishes


[/FONT]


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## marlon (Apr 27, 2008)

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> At its most basic level[FONT=Verdana, Arial], think of an inflated bladder. The air inside holds the bladder so that the surface is firm. The air inside is soft and relaxed and creates an internal pressure. When force is applied by forcing the bladder against the ground it does not collapse. The bladder just bounces. When the body is really relaxed, extended, and open, then the body can become more like a bladder,- springy and distributing energy evenly.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial]Very best wishes[/FONT]


Thank you...one of the bookls i have discusses this extensively however calls it something different

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## East Winds (Apr 28, 2008)

Hi marlon,

What does your book call it? 

I have been using the spelling Pung when in fact it should probably be spelled Peng but which is pronounced Pung. 

Very best wishes


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## pete (Apr 28, 2008)

marlon said:


> please define pungjin
> 
> many thanks,
> marlon


simply, the inside supports the outside while the outside protects then inside...

pete.


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## Mantismaster (Apr 29, 2008)

Hello to all:

Everyone has posted something of interest and value, but the bottom line here gentlemen is if your Shifu isn't a fighter then his Taiji will fail you.  No matter what style you take the instructor must be a fighter if that's what you want to learn.  

Please check out master "Wong's Tai Chi" on youtube then you will understand what I am saying.  Rule #1 "martial artist are people that train 2-3 x week".  Rule #2  warriors are people that train every single day of their lives."  just cause I bowl 2x wk doesn't make me a bowler!  Your teacher cabn only guide you and teach you the techniques that got him where he/she is, but the rest depends on you.  

The question you should be asking is "how bad of a BADASS do I want to be?" and then go for it, and remember that any style is like wine the longer you brew it the better it gets.

Peace
Mantismaster

p.s. Yang Luchang knew Chen Style and then created Yang


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## DaPoets (Apr 29, 2008)

I agree whole heartedly with Mantismaster.  For 12 years I have been doing tai chi for only a couple days a week, and now I train 6 days a week and see a huge jump in my abilities and fluidity of style.  I may actualy go for 7 days a week soon.


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## marlon (Apr 29, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Hi marlon,
> 
> What does your book call it?
> 
> ...


 
Well the short answer is "energetic coherence".  Now that i check he also names it peng jin  "simply expanding to meet the force...allow the structure to "fill up" proportionately to the impinging force"

much of the book deals with this aspect of taiji but does not neglect the whole of it.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Apr 29, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> I agree whole heartedly with Mantismaster. For 12 years I have been doing tai chi for only a couple days a week, and now I train 6 days a week and see a huge jump in my abilities and fluidity of style. I may actualy go for 7 days a week soon.


 

define training please...it seems silly but i do not want to make assumptions.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## DaPoets (Apr 29, 2008)

well... practice practice practice, get corrections from my instructor, practice practice practice, more corrections/additions and more practice....


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 29, 2008)

DaPoets said:


> well... practice practice practice, get corrections from my instructor, practice practice practice, more corrections/additions and more practice....


 
What does that equate to in hours per day?


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## DaPoets (Apr 30, 2008)

My schedule as previously posted in this thread.



DaPoets said:


> I posted this last night from my cell phone but it decided not to allow me to hit the quick reply button...
> 
> I thought I would speak of time spent training. For over a decade I would train only a couple times a week (2-3 times a week) and for about an hour and a half per session. As of January my schedule changed greatly so now my ability to train more often and longer has been paying off greatly by my increased awareness, strength, balance, posture, agility, stamina, and clarity. Here is my current schedule.
> 
> ...


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