# Jewish children shot dead in France



## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2012)

A gunman has opened fire at a Jewish school in France, there's been other shootings at well there this week after ethnic minorities have been targeted and killed.
"A teacher at the school, believed to be aged 30, and his two children, aged three and six, are reported to have been killed. 
The third child killed was aged between eight and 10 years old and belonged to another teacher at the school, French media report.
A 17-year-old was seriously injured.
"[The gunman] shot at everything he could see, children and adults, and some children were chased into the school," local prosecutor Michel Valet said."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17426313


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2012)

Don't like the sound of that one bit.   

Thanks for sharing the story.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm afraid it sounds like one of those National Front/Right Wing things as the soldiers who were killed were from North African and Caribbean origins. To go to a school however and target young children is beyond contempt, beyond belief. I grieve for such young lives snuffed out.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 19, 2012)

Worse part for me is thast when I heard the news I felt sadness and anger, but not surprise. It was one more attack on a Jewish institution.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Worse part for me is thast when I heard the news I felt sadness and anger, but not surprise. It was one more attack on a Jewish institution.



I'm not certain it was an attack on Jews specifically, or rather, it was specifically religious or ethnic minorities which included Jews.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17428860

If these attacks are connected, it would appear ethnic Arabs (Muslims?) were targeted first.

The whole thing sounds like Norway to me.  But we have scant details yet.

So sorry for all the victims.


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## CanuckMA (Mar 19, 2012)

I know. But the sad part is that hearing of jewish institurtions being hit is no longer shocking.


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## granfire (Mar 19, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> I know. But the sad part is that hearing of jewish institurtions being hit is no longer shocking.



Dunno where you are sitting at...but around here it's not exactly the norm.
Unlike schools being shot up though.

And here is the sick part about modern life: We ague about what institution is being shot up more than others.

It really does not matter why. 

It is a sad and tragic day.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2012)

There is to be a election in France in a couple of months and the politicians are campaigning like mad. Sarkozy however is looking to the hard right wing for support, this is the National Front, anti immigrant, anti black, anti Semitic, anti Islamic lot. Sarkozy is right wing anyway but looking to the supporters of Le Pen is to stir trouble in France which isn't the most racially tolerant of countries to say the least.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/11/nicolas-sarkozy-french-elections-2012

However, that's not to say it's not an Islamist attack, to kill soldiers who may have been Muslims may mean they have been thought of as 'traitors'. There is a warning of incresed terrorist attacks  http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/63672/israel-global-terror-wave-has-just-begun


The victims of the school shooting have been named. http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/65338/police-probe-links-french-jewish-school-shooting


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## billc (Mar 19, 2012)

It could very well be an extreme leftist anti-semite.  

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.html

and also the racist left might be at work as well...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-loudest-closet-left

Of course it still could be a radical muslim terrorist as well, only time and catching the killer will tell...


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2012)

billcihak said:


> It could very well be an extreme leftist anti-semite.
> 
> http://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.html
> 
> ...




The French police however think it's a right wing serial killer. Anti Semites tend not to kill West Indians which one of the Paratroopers killed was. 

The last link has nothing to do with the OP.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 19, 2012)

Left wing right wing  Blah Blah why cant it just be a crazy nut job neither left or right wing main stream people would support this.


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## Big Don (Mar 21, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> The French police however think it's a right wing serial killer.



[h=1]Shooting suspect says he'll surrender[/h] Published: March. 21, 2012 at 7:49 AM

 TOULOUSE, France, March 21 (UPI) -- Police  said the suspect in the deaths of seven people in southwestern France  agreed to surrender Wednesday as a funeral in Israel was held for four  victims.

Police surrounded a house in Toulouse, trying to coax the 24-year-old  suspect in the Monday shootings in front of a Jewish school as well as  the shooting deaths of three French paratroopers of north African  descent last week. 

Several media outlets reported the man said he would surrender later Wednesday.

Police said the suspect told them he has ties to al-Qaida and wanted to  "take revenge for Palestinian children" killed in the Middle East,  France 24 reported.

Shots fired from inside the house -- in the Cote Pavee neighborhood,  about 2 miles south of the Jewish school -- injured two officers, police  said.

The raid by elite special operations police began around 3:30 a.m. (10:30 p.m. EDT Tuesday), police said.

The unidentified suspect -- who French Interior Minister Claude Gueant  said was a French national of Algerian origin who spent considerable  time in Afghanistan and Pakistan -- was barricaded, talking to police  from behind a door of the house.

CNN quoted officials as saying the suspect belonged to a jihadist group  called Forsane Alizza (Knights of Glory). The French government banned  the group in January for trying to recruit people to fight in  Afghanistan.

Police tried to get the suspect's mother to talk to him but she refused,  saying she had very little contact with him, Gueant told reporters.

Police arrested the suspect's brother, who had been inside the house, officials said.

The suspect told police negotiators the Jewish school killings and the  shooting deaths of three French soldiers in recent days, were meant to  avenge the deaths of Palestinian children and to protest French  involvement in the Afghanistan war, Gueant said.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...render/UPI-44031332306000/print#ixzz1pknUTeOR


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2012)

I posted up what the French press and ours for that matter was saying, in my OP I said the killer was targetting ethnic minorities...North african, a West Indian and Jewish people. France is in the throes of an election where the Ultra Right Wing led by Marine La Pen is stirring up a lot of hatred for ethnic minorotiesnot hat it needs much stirring there. It would suit the French authorities especially Sarkozy if the killer wasn't white, French and Roman Catholic. We'll see. Muslims in France are very unhappy at having two Muslims shot dead, they are also sad at the deaths of children one of which, the little girl the killer caught by her hair, shot her but the gun failed so he got out another and shot her execution style as he did the two small boys. A soldier and another child were badly injured and still recovering. It wasn't a spray of bullets from a distance this was a shot in the head killing. Whether he really is Al Queada or a common criminal remains to be seen, he certainly has a criminal record and has been in the sights of police for a while. I'd be surprised if the gunman isn't shot dead though, the French police aren't known for their caring side shall we say. 

The Rabbi his children and the little girl were buried today in Israel.


Plotics in France often erupt in violence, the national Front is equally loved and hated. It supports Assad in Syria, wants all immigrants gone out of France legal ones as well and is known for it's links to the Uk national Front as well as other extremist right wing organisations. It's not right wing as you would know right wing in America, this is the Ultra Right Wingers who are rascist, nationalist and violent. It belittles the Holocaust as well as campaigning against ethnic minorities. I'm not sure you can understand the hate tbh I really don't think you have the same nazi type politicans.

http://www.france24.com/en/category/tags-th%C3%A9matiques/national-front-party-france


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## Sukerkin (Mar 21, 2012)

I've not commented on this news yet, primarily because it upset me too much, particularly publishing the pictures of the children; that just broke my heart.  How could any man do such a thing and still consider himself a human being, let alone a man?

I have been keeping up to date with the news but Tez has done a sterling job of passing on the coverage so I didn't want to just duplicate.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 21, 2012)

Big Don said:


> The suspect told police negotiators the Jewish school killings and the  shooting deaths of three French soldiers in recent days, were meant to  avenge the deaths of Palestinian children and to protest French  involvement in the Afghanistan war, Gueant said.
> 
> Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...render/UPI-44031332306000/print#ixzz1pknUTeOR



But at least one of the soldiers was a Muslim.  WTF?


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## Grenadier (Mar 21, 2012)

Up until now, the press seemed to be making way too much of an effort to paint this murderer as a non-Muslim, especially pointing out that some of the murder victims were North Africans.  Perhaps someone should mention to the press, that Muslim on Muslim violence is quite common, much of how black on black violence is quite common here.  

If anything, this reminds me of the "DC Sniper" from several years ago, where the idiotic chief of police, Moose, kept insisting that his assertion about the shooter being a white male driving a van was the truth, when it was really a black male driving a sedan (John Allen Muhammed).  That blunder alone, wasted much valuable time.  

The French police were barking up the wrong tree in a similar manner...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/france-clears-three-neo-nazi-suspects-in-jewish-school-shooting/


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2012)

The French police are well French, they don't let little things like truth get in the way. There is a tremendous amount of Arab gang violence in the south of France from Lyon down, you have to be very careful driving down not to be stopped by bandits. My usual thing is to keep an old handbag in the front of the car, with an old wallet with a 50 Euro note in front of some paper cut out and some old out of date credit cards and a couple of things like a comb etc to make it look used. They can take than and run. Walking around certain areas is dangerous as knife gangs are quite common. They aren't Muslim gangs as such they are Arabs criminals. However the police do target Arab communities in places like Marseille, Paris etc there is a disproportionate amount of Arabs arrested for minor things even nothing at all. If the CRS are around they don't arrest they beat people up, I've seen it in St Tropez they really aren't bothered where they do this. often just the sight of the CRS will start violent demonstrations. Arabs are really quite despised in France, I imagine that many newspapers are playing down the killer as being Arab because it will start riots again. Not all the Arabs in France are Muslim, many are Christian who've left North Africa to escape persecution or just for a perceived better life. Algeria however has a long and bloody history with France who still interferes in Algerian politics preventing an Arab Spring there among others things. The suspect is of Algerian descent.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/03/20123214219458757.html


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

So much for the "right wing" theory...

It is hard to tell religion when someone is in a uniform.  The guy saw the uniform, not the religion.

The authorities said that considering what they know so far they will relegate this to
--work place violence
--"pre"- traumatic stress disorder
--amorphous mental illness symptoms...

then they stated...nothing to see here, please move along...


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2012)

billcihak said:


> So much for the "right wing" theory...
> 
> It is hard to tell religion when someone is in a uniform. The guy saw the uniform, not the religion.
> 
> ...





What uniforms? The one the Rabbi was wearing, the school uniform the children were wearing? The paratroopers one of whom was black the other three Arabic, not all of them were in uniform. What authorities? I suggest you know little about French authorities if you think 'mental illness' will be a defence. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17428860


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

From Bill Mattock's post #5...


> According to French newspaper Le Figaro, Sgt Ibn-Ziaten, who was not in uniform, was unwittingly waiting for his own killer.
> 
> He had posted a small ad on a website to sell a Suzuki Bandit  motorcycle, and the suspected gunman had arranged a meeting with him to  see it.
> Sgt Ibn-Ziaten had identified himself as a soldier in the ad, posted online on 24 February.


Not in uniform but he identified himself to the killer as a soldier...


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2012)

billcihak said:


> From Bill Mattock's post #5...
> 
> Not in uniform but he identified himself to the killer as a soldier...




What's your point?  The killer knew he was an _Arab_ soldier. He targeted Arab and black soldiers, you can't mistake them for white soldiers and he targeted Orthodox Jews at a Jewish school.


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm not sure what your point is.  He targeted soldiers and Jewish people, and appears to be a radical muslim terrorist.  The one soldier was not in a uniform but identified himself as a soldier before being ambushed by the killer.  It is possible that the U.S. had this guy in custody at one point and that he escaped.

Our soldiers have been killed, I believe it was in Germany, before they were about to be deployed, and Jewish people are still targets of radical islamic terrorism.  Soldiers and Jewish people.


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2012)

I've no idea what you are on about to be honest, you say in one post that you can't tell religion when people are in uniform now you are saying Jews are targeted by Islamic militants, no **** Sherlock. We are also targeted by anti Semitic bigots not of an Islamic background, notably the various National Front and nazi lovers there are out there. You seem more concerned about the left/right views of the killer than that a killer executed small children. He killed two little boys father in front of them then shot them in the head, at 3 and 5 they weren't much more than babies. He grabbed a little girl by the hair and shot her in the head, he shot a teenager attempting to flee. He lured an Arab/French soldier to his death, he shot a West Indian as well as other Arab Frenchmen, shooting one as he tried to crawl away. But what matters to you is that no one looks upon this as a right wing crime, no matter who was killed. That sickens me.


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

Perhaps he knew they were jewish because they were in front of a Jewish school...


From Bill Mattock's post...



> On 19 March, a gunman on a moped attacked the Ozar Hatorah Jewish school in Toulouse.



I believe it was you Tez who first inaccurately accused the islamic radical terrorist killer of being a left wing  socialist of the german model, not me.

He knew they were Jewish because they were in front of the Jewish school and he knew they were soldiers because they were in uniform or self-identified themselves as soldiers to him.


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

This article goes into the media template of the killer being a "right wing" neo-nazi...

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/2...;s-&#8216;far-right&#8217;-profile-perfectly/



> The suspect has been named as Mohammed Merah, a French national of Algerian origin. According to reports in the French media, Merah fought with the Taliban in Afghanistan, and after being captured he escaped in a mass breakout from Kandahar prison in 2008.
> The news that the killer is not just a Muslim but a veteran jihadist will prove hard to swallow for sections of the liberal media both in Europe and the U.S., which had been playing down the possibility of an Islamist connection, and pushing the theory that the gunman was a &#8220;far-right&#8221; (the media&#8217;s term, not mine) extremist in the mold of the Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik.
> The selection of Jewish victims clearly suggested either an Islamist or &#8220;far-right&#8221; connection. But while the identities of the soldiers &#8211; two were Muslims of North African descent and the third was a black man &#8212; certainly allowed for the possibility that the gunman was a racist, and possibly a neo-Nazi, it was equally likely that the soldiers were targeted because of French involvement in Afghanistan, and that their ethnicity was irrelevant.
> However, the narrative which had gained widespread popularity &#8212; certainly in the left-leaning British and American media &#8212; in the past few days was that the gunman was a racist who had been driven to committing the murders by the emergence of immigration, and Islam in particular, as an issue in the current French presidential campaign. The possibility of Islamic terrorism had been barely mentioned.





> Large sections of the media got this one spectacularly wrong, but don&#8217;t expect them to acknowledge that fact. Instead, look for them to move move seamlessly from the &#8220;far-right extremist&#8221; theme to asking what could have provoked Merah (post-traumatic shock brought on from his experiences in Afghanistan perhaps?).


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2012)

billcihak said:


> Perhaps he knew they were jewish because they were in front of a Jewish school...
> 
> 
> From Bill Mattock's post...
> ...



Actually I didn't express a personal opinion as to what ilk the killer was I reported what was being said in the press and by the French. You, as usual, only read what you want to see in something and you are the only one who is low enough to argue left/right politics at a time of grief. 

You keep banging that left equals Nazi drum, you make a noise but a noise isn't the truth. 


I don't know why you feel the need to state the obvious ie they were Jewish because they were in front of a Jewish school... yes they were Jewish which is why I mourn for them. May their memory be for a blessing.


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

Just responding to this...


> I've no idea what you are on about to be honest, you say in one post that you can't tell religion when people are in uniform now you are saying Jews are targeted by Islamic militants, no **** Sherlock.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 21, 2012)

I'll bet you don't even think you're being insensitive; for you are, you know.  As was said at times of other terrorist activity, there is nothing wrong with waiting a decent amount of time before hauling out the tawdry cloth of political point scoring.

Have a look again at the picture of the little lass, some proud fathers 'princess', that this waste of DNA shot through the head and tell me again that I should care what his politics were.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17443667

Maybe later is the time where we can talk about motivation?


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

Since this is the first political statement on the shooting...



> I'm afraid it sounds like one of those National Front/Right Wing things as the soldiers who were killed were from North African and Caribbean origins. To go to a school however and target young children is beyond contempt, beyond belief. I grieve for such young lives snuffed out.



Made by Tez in the opening posts on this thread, I somehow don't think you were addressing her Sukerkin, just my response to her political statement...


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## Sukerkin (Mar 21, 2012)

Enough for now, please.


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## jks9199 (Mar 21, 2012)

Everybody, let's tone down the rhetoric a bit.  This was an incalculable tragedy, most especially for the families of the children.  Let's not make it worse by letting it become some sort of feeding frenzy here.


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## Big Don (Mar 21, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Maybe later is the time where we can talk about motivation?


That seems fair enough, on the surface, but, remember, every single attack, by a Muslim, anywhere in the world, since 9-11-01, has been screeched about and preached about as "THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KILLER/SHOOTER/ATTACKER BEING MUSLIM". It is, bluntly a crock of dung.
Muslim guy shoots up Seattle Jewish center, of course not because he was Muslim and they were Jews.
Major Hasan shoots up Fort Hood, of course, his being Muslim had NOTHING to do with it.
This, most recent ***, shoots troops and then CHILDREN, but, his being MUSLIM had NOTHING to do with it.
Sorry,that is like saying fish aren't wet because of the water in the ocean.


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## billc (Mar 21, 2012)

Sukerkin, I thought about not responding to Tez, but she came in with the political aspect on the third post.  Have you asked her to tone down her responses in light of the tragedy?  I thought not...


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2012)

Bili, if you understood European politics from before the war through the war and afterwards you would know why I said that I'm *afraid* that it sounds like.... and we are afraid you know, you don't understand the fear that these groups engender, far more than any Muslim radicals engender. There have been nearly 700 attacks on the Jewish Community in the UK last year, some of them violent and one very violent, only a very few of them were committed by Muslim sympathisers. When Muslims and Jews are shot it does sound very like the far right groups again, yes *again*. I don't think you realise how often they attack ethnic minorities. Nor do I think you understand, probably very luckily, what the far right is in European, you see things as being the same as in America, where you have a right party and a left party both of whom while they fight in the media don't actually go to war with each other. In Europe, notably France the far right has a fairly strong hold in the polls, they aren't in control of much...yet but the fear is that they will. Again you don't understand the fear. It worries me very much and yes I'm afraid that the rise of the far right will be bad for ethnic minorities. 
You can call an apple an orange if you wish however everyone else will still call that apple an apple, it doesn't change the nature of it. The Far Right worries and scares more people here than Muslim extremism ever will. If you wish to defend the Far Right fine but don't expect people to understand.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 22, 2012)

Big Don said:


> That seems fair enough, <snip>



I can't conceive that what I said could be mis-interpreted - it was quite clear (or at least I intended it to be) that all I was asking for was a bit of decent behaviour from my fellows here.  In a week or two by all means bicker politics/religion/fanatacism as you wish.

But please let the blood cool on the pavement first.


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## Tez3 (Mar 22, 2012)

Big Don said:


> That seems fair enough, on the surface, but, remember, every single attack, by a Muslim, anywhere in the world, since 9-11-01, has been screeched about and preached about as "THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KILLER/SHOOTER/ATTACKER BEING MUSLIM". It is, bluntly a crock of dung.
> Muslim guy shoots up Seattle Jewish center, of course not because he was Muslim and they were Jews.
> Major Hasan shoots up Fort Hood, of course, his being Muslim had NOTHING to do with it.
> This, most recent ***, shoots troops and then CHILDREN, but, his being MUSLIM had NOTHING to do with it.
> Sorry,that is like saying fish aren't wet because of the water in the ocean.





I don't think anyone said anything about it not being anything to do with him being Muslim beause all the speculation from the press etc came *before* he was identified. The crime at the time it was commited sounded like one of many that occur in France where ethnic minorities are targeted, since he was named no one has said anything about it not being because he was Muslim.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 22, 2012)

Well looks like hes dead so we may never know the real reason for this.


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## Big Don (Mar 23, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Well looks like hes dead so we may never know the real reason for this.


Au contraire:
From the Telegraph:
*Toulouse shooting: killer 'was on US no-fly list'*

*France was facing calls for a far-reaching intelligence inquiry on Thursday    night following reports that a suspected al-Qaeda-trained killer shot dead    after a marathon siege in Toulouse was on the US no-fly list.*


                             By                                              Henry Samuel, Paris

                                                   8:32PM GMT 22 Mar 2012

                                                         Nationwide relief greeted the news that no police fatalities had been incurred    in eliminating Mohammed Merah, 23, wanted in the killings of three French    paratroopers, a rabbi and three children ages 4, 5, and 7 shot outside a    Jewish school in Toulouse. 

  But the authorities faced growing criticism that it should have prevented a    killing spree by a known fundamentalist who was the US no-fly list and had    attended an al-Qaeda training camp. 

  Jund al-Khilafah, an al-Qaeda front organisation claimed responsibility the    shootings in a statement posted on jihadist websites. 

  "On ... March 19th, our brother Yousef the Frenchman carried out an    operation that shook the foundations of the Zionist Crusaders ... and filled    their hearts with terror," it wrote. 

  "We claim responsibility for these operations," it went on, adding    that Israel's "crimes ... will not go unpunished." 



 Mr Merah admitted responsibility for the shootings during long talks with    negotiators, expressing no remorse other than he had not killed more people.  
  The scooter-driving gunman filmed all his murders with a mini-camera, and can    be heard shouting "Alluha Akbar" and "You killed my brothers,    I kill you" in two of the shootings. 
  He told authorities he had been trained by Al-Qaeda on the    Afghanistan-Pakistan border.  
  Claude Guéant, the Interior minister admitted that he had been under    surveillance "for several years", adding he had never "shown    any sign of preparing criminal acts" at the outset of the seige.  
  Increasingly damning evidence suggested France was aware Mr Mehar posed a    threat. 
END EXCERPT
Nope, not one clue exists to his motivation, none at all.Mr Merah admitted responsibility for the shootings during long talks  with    negotiators, expressing no remorse other than he had not killed  more people.  
The scooter-driving gunman filmed all his murders with a mini-camera,  and can    be heard shouting "Alluha Akbar" and "You killed my brothers,     I kill you" in two of the shootings. 
  He told authorities he had been trained by Al-Qaeda on the    Afghanistan-Pakistan border.  
This will be one of the great mysteries of all time, like, "Is water wet?"


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## Makalakumu (Mar 23, 2012)

Or maybe it's the product of Stanley McChrystal's Insurgent Math.  "For every innocent life we take, we create ten new enemies."  There's a swarm of real terrorists coming because we're over there killing them.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...afghanistanbre82k0kj-20120321,0,1998203.story



> KANDAHAR, Afghanistan  (Reuters) - French school shooting suspect Mohamed Merah had been  arrested for bomb making in the southern Afghan province of Kandahar in  2007 but escaped months later in a Taliban prison break, the director of prisons in Kandahar told Reuters.



Looks like he was fighting us over there and decided to bring the fight over here.  This could be called blowback...except for the fact that we know why fight's being taken to the West.  We're over there killing and bombing and terrorizing...


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2012)

This actually has everything to do with racism, firstly... the killer was of Algerian descent. That probably won't mean much to you but while Algeria celebrates it's 50th anniversay of indenpendence from France there is still an extraoridnary amount of bitterness against France and the French. The separation was a bloody and bitter one. http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/alpha/algeria1954.htm

Arabs aren't welcome in France which is probably one of the most intolerant places in Europe, no ethnic minority is actually welcome, don't be fooled by the crocodile tears being wept by many politicians there over the deaths of the Jews nor the deaths of it's 'ethnic' soldiers. In some cities such as Lyon, Marseille and Paris there are large sprawls of run down housing estates which are ghettos for the poor mostly of Arab and North African descent. They feel victimised which in many cases they are. These are breeding grounds for the Islamic fundamentalists, they do what fundamentalists do in every religion and political group, they rouse the young up to believe they can fight the system, sometimes this is good often not as in this case. it's the ideal place to find disaffected, abused youths to turn into terrorists.


The National Front, the far right , have a big following in France and they stir up the pot that is France, if you aren't white, French and Catholic you have no place there they say. It's no use arging that they aren't the far right, it's what they are known as and acknowledge themselves to be, arging that they aren't is like arguing that Paris isn't the capitol of France. With the election this year looming politicians like Sarkozy are wooing the far right voters of which there are a great many, moderates have warned that using the race card will bring about trouble, it will bring more yet I've no doubt.


Incidentally the Palestinian prime Minister made a statement, a good one too.
    "_Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said extremists must stop using the Palestinian cause to justify their acts of violence.
It is time for these criminals to stop marketing their terrorist acts in the name of Palestine and to stop pretending to stand up for the rights of Palestinian children who only ask for a decent life,&#8221; the Palestinian premier said in a statement."

_Palestinian diplomatic missions_ &#8220;condemn in the strongest possible terms the hateful attack carried out in Toulouse,&#8221; a statement said. &#8220;All racist crimes are attacks on humanity in general and on the republic in particular.&#8221;

&#8220;It appears the weapon used in that massacre is the same as that used previously against three French soldiers of different origins, which leads one to suppose the killer is driven by a multifaceted racist hatred,&#8221; it said.


_


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## ballen0351 (Mar 24, 2012)

Tez im confused.  Are you saying he wasnt a terriorist but simply a racist?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 24, 2012)

It's pretty clear he is a terrorist and was fighting against NATO in Afghanistan.  No need to muddy the water on this one.  One of their fighters came to the West to bring the fight to us.  The back story is interesting though.  It would explain why an Algerian would pull up stakes and go and fight in the first place.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 24, 2012)

I understand that.  I dont understand what tez is trying to say.  I may just be reading it wrong but when i read her posts it seems to me she is dismissing the terrorist part in favor of the french are racist and thats why he shot them.  Im just trying to understand her point of view.  I find her opinions often valuable for me to see things in a different way so im trying to get her point even if i dont always agree.


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Tez im confused. Are you saying he wasnt a terriorist but simply a racist?



No I'm saying he's a terrorist who become one because of racism. France is possibly the most racist country in Europe. The French don't really want anyone who is not white, and Catholic in their country, the Arabs are not welcome but because of Frances colonial 'obligations' they have a great many Arab immigrants. They are usually the poorest people living in what are basically ghettos, *as I said these are breeding grounds for terrorists*. The Islamic Jihadists find a ready audience for their recruiting campaigns among the poor disaffected young Arabs. The killer was Algerian, there is a long bloody history between France and Algeria leaving bitterness and a yearning for revenge on both sides. 

It's also believed he didn't actually belong to any organisation but it was his brother, who's been arrested and held, his mother and himself who planned and executed the attacks. His brother was caught with explosives in his car. He wasn't fighting against NATO, according to him he was taking revenge for the Palestinians who have responded by condemning it and saying they don't want people taking revenge for their children. It's also believed he shot the soldiers more as a personal revenge as he was turned down for the army and actually failed to get into the Legion D'Etranger on the first day which is fairly amazing.. 

I'm not dismissing him as a terrorist at all, I'm actually warning you that more will come out of the French ghettos.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not dismissing him as a terrorist at all, I'm actually warning you that more will come out of the French ghettos.



He didn't come from a French ghetto.  He came from Afghanistan.  He allegedly broke out of prison with hundreds of other fighters and brought the fight back to the West.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the war is spreading out of Afghanistan.


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> He didn't come from a French ghetto. He came from Afghanistan. He allegedly broke out of prison with hundreds of other fighters and brought the fight back to the West. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the war is spreading out of Afghanistan.




Where do you think he was born and brought up then? He was French of Algerian extraction. I think you have been gettting some duff gen.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304636404577297823476347652.html


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## Makalakumu (Mar 25, 2012)

Did he fight in Afghanistan? Did he escape from a prison there? Did he bring the fight to the West? It's going to keep happening as long as we're there. This is another cost of war.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk


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## Sukerkin (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't know that it's as cut and dried a that, Maka.  It's a seductive argument to make but, as with anything 'faith' based (as in accepted without real evidence), it's more likely wrong than right.  We might as well conclude that these crimes were the result of the obvious failure of multi-culturalism.

It is easy to say that 'b' happened because of 'a' if we leave out all the mechanisms and proofs in between.  To prevent that style of thinking is part of why the scientific method exists and, sadly, it is all too seldom applied when it comes to social or historical issues.


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Did he fight in Afghanistan? Did he escape from a prison there? Did he bring the fight to the West? It's going to keep happening as long as we're there. This is another cost of war.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk



There is no proof he 'fought' in Afghanistan and there's no proof he escaped from a prison. As for bringing the war to the West, he was _deported _back to his home country France where he killed people.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> No I'm saying he's a terrorist who become one because of racism. France is possibly the most racist country in Europe. The French don't really want anyone who is not white, and Catholic in their country, the Arabs are not welcome but because of Frances colonial 'obligations' they have a great many Arab immigrants. They are usually the poorest people living in what are basically ghettos, *as I said these are breeding grounds for terrorists*. The Islamic Jihadists find a ready audience for their recruiting campaigns among the poor disaffected young Arabs. The killer was Algerian, there is a long bloody history between France and Algeria leaving bitterness and a yearning for revenge on both sides.
> 
> It's also believed he didn't actually belong to any organisation but it was his brother, who's been arrested and held, his mother and himself who planned and executed the attacks. His brother was caught with explosives in his car. He wasn't fighting against NATO, according to him he was taking revenge for the Palestinians who have responded by condemning it and saying they don't want people taking revenge for their children. It's also believed he shot the soldiers more as a personal revenge as he was turned down for the army and actually failed to get into the Legion D'Etranger on the first day which is fairly amazing..
> 
> I'm not dismissing him as a terrorist at all, I'm actually warning you that more will come out of the French ghettos.



Thank you Im much clearer on what you were saying it makes sense to me.


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## Tez3 (Mar 25, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Thank you Im much clearer on what you were saying it makes sense to me.




No worries. I think the killer was a very disaffected young man, he was a criminal from an early age and perhaps if he hadn't been he would have got into the army and been a productive member of society. However the radicalisation of youths like him, it happens here as well, is as much a result of what we do here as what we do in Afghanistan. The Islamic fundamentalists are cashing in on Islamic youth's 'lostness', unemployment and disaffection with the countries they live in. of course the Muslim youths aren't the only ones to be exploited this way, there's a ready made pool of impressionable youth out there waiting to be signed up by any organisation that can often them hope, jobs and a cause. The far right are doing it as well as some fundamentalist Christians churches, gangs too.

To me, it would seem more worthwhile treating the problems at home, youth unemployment, education etc before blaming what we are doing in Afghanistan. If we keep the youth in our own countries occupied and feeling they are worthwhile citizens it would go a long way to fighting the fundamentalist threat. If they don't feel they need to look for a cuse, that they have one here instead it makes recruiting them as terrorists so much harder.

I don't know how it is in the States, I don't know how big a Muslim population you have, in Europe especially France with it's former colonial history as with us we have have large pockets of Muslim youth who are without jobs and feel they don't belong here. They often blame their parents btw for bringing them here, which is unfair but it makes the problem worse in that the young won't listen to or respect their elders. they feel that they should fight for jobs, recognistion etc. I can understand the problem, a generation or so ago it was also a Jewish problem, the young felt that their parent's generation just lay down to be walked on. The young are idealistic and want to fight.

The problem is a huge one, economic downturns mean that youth unemployment is high leaving youths of all cultures feeling disaffected, discrimination against minorities is always rampant when jobs and money are scarcer. People of all cultures feel threatened which certain groups will take advantage of. Afghan and Iraq has given the Muslim youths a 'cause', an identity fostered by the fundamentalist terrorists who offer them the 'worth' they feel is lacking in the countries of their birth. It's an old recipe but of course it works. What we have to do is cut it off at the source which isn't Afghan or Iraq.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> There is no proof he 'fought' in Afghanistan and there's no proof he escaped from a prison. As for bringing the war to the West, he was _deported _back to his home country France where he killed people.



Okay, maybe you didn't see the article I posted earlier that stated he escaped from prison in Afghanistan, but even then, I can see how someone would say that still isn't proof.  I can accept that we might not actually KNOW where this person came from and what may have driven him.  That said, aren't you just speculating as well?


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Okay, maybe you didn't see the article I posted earlier that stated he escaped from prison in Afghanistan, but even then, I can see how someone would say that still isn't proof. I can accept that we might not actually KNOW where this person came from and what may have driven him. That said, aren't you just speculating as well?




Well actually I'm using the French Police and intel reports rather than speculating.  We *do* know where he came from, where he was born etc. He was a French citizen, born in France and lived in an area which is an 'Arabe' ghetto, a so called 'sensitive' area of Toulouse. I'm not speculating about him I'm explaining how Muslim youths are radicalised in France and here. Police think this killer's radicalisation came during one of his many prison sentences for criminal acts. He's reported to have joined the Salafists. The reports of his 'escaping' from prison and indeed of him being put in prison come from Afghan sources not French or from any of the Allies. It's widely reported but that doesn't make it true. No one knows whether he fought while in Afghanistan.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Well actually I'm using the French Police and intel reports rather than speculating.  We *do* know where he came from, where he was born etc. He was a French citizen, born in France and lived in an area which is an 'Arabe' ghetto, a so called 'sensitive' area of Toulouse. I'm not speculating about him I'm explaining how Muslim youths are radicalised in France and here. Police think this killer's radicalisation came during one of his many prison sentences for criminal acts. He's reported to have joined the Salafists. The reports of his 'escaping' from prison and indeed of him being put in prison *come from Afghan sources not French* or from any of the Allies. It's widely reported but that doesn't make it true. No one knows whether he fought while in Afghanistan.



Do you know that France's Interior Minister said?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-r...tan-update-1l3e8el56a-20120321,0,779347.story



> France's Interior Minister Claude Gueant said that the gunman had been to Pakistan and Afghanistan and had carried out his killings in revenge for French military involvement abroad.



I wonder what evidence he's basing his opinion on?

Incidentally, I did find this about the jailbreak, so apparently there is some confusion on that point.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/us-france-shootings-afghanistan-idUSBRE82K17Y20120321



> Merah's lawyer in France,  Christian Etelin, said his client was in prison in France from December  2007 until September 2009, serving an 18-month sentence for robbery  with violence, and therefore could not have been in Afghanistan at the  time of the Kandahar jailbreak.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing, what the French Interior Minister says is as much conjecture as anything else anyone is saying, after all he's not going to say 'well actually the way we treat the Arabs here has anything to do with this' is he? I'm not sure why you are trying to use what politicians and the media are saying as being proof you are correct, it's not as though they are always impeccable sources. He may well have decided to kill in retalilation for France's involvement in Afghanistan but if he did how did he get to that point? or are you suggesting all Muslims from birth are killers?

If we can do something to stop young people becoming recruited into the terrorist mill, if we can address the problems at home which makes these people vulnerable to the terrorist recruiters we will go a long way to stopping the terrorists, leaving Afghan won't do that on it's own, it won't all stop when the Allies leave there so we must do far more, much much more in fact.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure you are reading what I'm writing, what the French Interior Minister says is as much conjecture as anything else anyone is saying, after all he's not going to say 'well actually the way we treat the Arabs here has anything to do with this' is he? I'm not sure why you are trying to use what politicians and the media are saying as being proof you are correct, it's not as though they are always impeccable sources. He may well have decided to kill in retalilation for France's involvement in Afghanistan but if he did how did he get to that point? or are you suggesting all Muslims from birth are killers?
> 
> If we can do something to stop young people becoming recruited into the terrorist mill, if we can address the problems at home which makes these people vulnerable to the terrorist recruiters we will go a long way to stopping the terrorists, leaving Afghan won't do that on it's own, it won't all stop when the Allies leave there so we must do far more, much much more in fact.



Actually, Tez3, I think we're in agreement.  If a group of people can be viewed as a hornets nest, it looks like French society has been poking it for a long time.  The Allies put the boots to the nest in Afghanistan and Iraq and other places and now it looks like we've got pissed off hornets flying all over the world.  Stopping it means dealing with the roots, the stomping and the poking.

It's a double tragedy when you consider the cause and effects.  If he was some crazy guy with a broken mind, that's like a bolt of lightning, unpredictable and savage.  If he's a disaffected youth that we've inspired hatred in from mistreatment and war, we owe it to the victims to tackle the root of the situation.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2012)

You can't blame all terrorism on Afghanistan and Iraq being occupied by the Allies, it's a chicken and egg situation. 9/11 happened before Afghanistan and we've had plenty of terrorist attacks before Iraq even.

Information coming out about the French killer may indicate that he was also a psychopathic killer, he has written in diaries as well as telling the police holding him siege that enjoyed the killings among othr things. He seems to fit the profile of a serial killer as much as anything. that's as bad as it gets a terrorist who is also a serial killer. He said his only regret was not killing more children. 


I wouldn't call the Arabs (many of the Algerian Muslims are Sufi, there's also non Muslim Arabs) in France a hornet's nest, they are a group of people who have been badly treated in the past, remain badly treated, unwanted and looked down on. The French aren't poking a hornets nest at all, they are being French ie racist, insular and superior. The problems they have with the Arabs of North Africa are of their own making and have been so since the 17th century. While Islamic terrorism is probably new to you, it has been around since the beginning of the 19th century with the Wahabi organisation being recognised as one of the first 'Islamic' fundamentalist 'terror' organisations. The Iraq and Afghan 'situation's  are just the latest incidents in a centuries old Game.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You can't blame all terrorism on Afghanistan and Iraq being occupied by the Allies, it's a chicken and egg situation. 9/11 happened before Afghanistan and we've had plenty of terrorist attacks before Iraq even.
> 
> Information coming out about the French killer may indicate that he was also a psychopathic killer, he has written in diaries as well as telling the police holding him siege that enjoyed the killings among othr things. He seems to fit the profile of a serial killer as much as anything. that's as bad as it gets a terrorist who is also a serial killer. He said his only regret was not killing more children.
> 
> ...



Again, I think we're on the same page.  Terrorism has been going on far before 9/11 and it traces it's roots back to some pretty terrible social and colonial practices.  My only bone of contention is that I think the war is going to make it MUCH worse.  Things like that tend to push more and more people toward extremism.

That said, I was reading the History of Rome on the beach this morning.  They had problems with mistreating ethnic and religious minorities and that it often erupted in violence.  Before Constantine converted, the Christians were what we would today call terrorists.  So, for those people who like to focus on the religious aspects of acts like these, I think you can cut and paste the religion or ethnicity into whatever time frame.  What really matters is how people are treated.


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## Tez3 (Mar 27, 2012)

I think saying the Romans 'mistreated' ethnic minorities is one of the best pieces of undrstatement I've seen for a while!


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