# Why My Style of Wing Chun is the Best!



## geezer (Feb 14, 2008)

OK, I admit it. I stole the theme for this thread right off FMA Talk (Check it out). Anyway, they had this "my style is the best" thing and everybody put in what they liked best about their system. It was a pretty decent thread ...so here goes... I practice with an "independent" branch of WT. I like two things about it. First, I can continue studying the art as my original SiFu taught me--and his technique is truly second to none--but I don't have to sell my children, wife and home to afford to continue training.  And, the guys I work out with are great. We don't bad-mouth anybody else. We just want to improve our skills and have fun doing it.

As for the WT system itself, I especially like that it is one of the softer or more "flexible" interpretations of the late Great-Grandmaster Yip Man's art. Techniques like bong-sau are performed in a very springy, bamboo-like manner, which is very helpful when facing powerful opponents. Actually, I'm not psychologically very well adapted to being "yielding" and flexible. I tend to resort to physical strength. But since I'm small to average in size and over fifty, this isn't such a smart idea. WT continually forces me to use technique over force.  Its more than just a way to approach physical conflict. It's a good philosophy to live by.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 15, 2008)

Hmmm, the fact that it is called 'why my style is the best' is a bit misguided to begin with

I love Kamon and truly I have not seen any better martial artists than Kevin Chan. But that does not mean they do not exist
I easily concede that there are probably better schools out there, and I am sorry, but the fact that you have stated that you are from WT does not really say much about your art

I know that Bosteppi and a few others have broken away from the idiot Leung Ting, and while a lot of stuff they do looks good, there are better guys out there

All I am saying is that it is very arrogant to claim your style as the 'best' out there

There is a much more sensible thread asking why people like the styles that they do. It is possible that you intended this thread to be along those lines


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Hmmm, the fact that it is called 'why my style is the best' is a bit misguided to begin with


 --yes, that's me--MISGUIDED! Anyway, you being verybad. No play game right. Not to be saying about idiot Leung Ting. Be saying why Kamon the best. Shame be upon you! Now try again. Why being so good this Kamon? You say more now. Why my syntax get funny? Who can say. Misguided!


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## gblnking (Feb 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Hmmm, the fact that it is called 'why my style is the best' is a bit misguided to begin with
> 
> I love Kamon and truly I have not seen any better martial artists than Kevin Chan. But that does not mean they do not exist
> I easily concede that there are probably better schools out there, and I am sorry, but the fact that you have stated that you are from WT does not really say much about your art
> ...


 
Now that is about as much "the pot calling the kettle black" as any I've seen in a long time.


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> I know that Bosteppi and a few others have broken away from the idiot Leung Ting, and while a lot of stuff they do looks good, there are better guys out there


 
Sorry, I just couldn't let this go. Unless you have trained personally and privately with "that idiot" as I had the opportunity to do many years ago, you really don't know the level of his technical skill, especially his legs. He can use his legs like most masters use their hands, and with enough power to shatter a wooden dummy leg with a short kick. I know because I was there. Of course that has nothing to do with whether one is an idiot or not, so I'm really not being contrary. 

As far as there "being better people out there"--I suspect that some of the best never choose to go public and sell their skills, so we may never even know who they are. If Grandmaster Yip hadn't fallen on hard times in Hong Kong, would he ever have gone public with his teaching?


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## qwksilver61 (Feb 15, 2008)

And that is why GM Keith Kernshpecht is where he(GM) is,Boztepe has received the notoriety that he has (trained by Kernshpect) Sifu Steve Brandon (my Si-Hing),the list goes on.......GM Leung Ting holds the right (introduced Wing Tsun to Europe),he trained all of these people. Remember,ego ultimately leads to failure.I met GM Ting he is a very humble man,would you go so far as to challenge any senior student of his?are you really a Wing Tsun man?(yield until pressed?) or driven purely by ego?The proof is in the pudding,now lets quit sniping each other and stick to the subject matter.I'm sure that your *Sifu *would agree.Class, not out- class.*R-E-S-P-E-C-T!* for each other and the art.enough- said


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## qwksilver61 (Feb 16, 2008)

I was wondering,does anyone here own the book on the Wing Chun lineage? It would be interesting to see or at least trace some of these lineages back to a source.I believe GM Ting had mentioned the border between Yunnan and Szechuan.OK.this probably should have been posted as a new thread,but why can't anything in this forum benefit all of us instead of dividing everyone,aren't we Wing Chun people here? Mr Kamon,what is it that you really hate about GM Leung Ting? I would never bad mouth Kevin Chan out of respect.Think!


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## kidswarrior (Feb 16, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> I was wondering,*does anyone here own the book on the Wing Chun lineage?* It would be interesting to see or at least trace some of these lineages back to a source.I believe GM Ting had mentioned the border between Yunnan and Szechuan.OK.this probably should have been posted as a new thread...


I'd like to know details of that. Not a WC guy, but have now heard so much about it, would like to nail down the origins and lines of descent. (_Am _a hybrid CMA guy).



> *why can't anything in this forum benefit all of us instead of dividing everyone*,aren't we Wing Chun people here? Mr Kamon,what is it that you really hate about GM Leung Ting? *I would never bad mouth* Kevin Chan *out of respect.Think!*


Well said, *qwksilver*. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2008)

Just as a note; to answer this post properly it is just as valid to say my style of wing chun is best because I say so. So I guess I do not see the point of it other than to start a fight.

I no longer train wing chun by the way, no time



kidswarrior said:


> I'd like to know details of that. Not a WC guy, but have now heard so much about it, would like to nail down the origins and lines of descent. (_Am _a hybrid CMA guy).


 
This  book discusses Wing CH\hun History a bit
Wing Chun Kung Fu: Traditional Chinese King Fu for Self-Defense and Health
By by Ip Chun and Michael Tse

Bottom-line, in my opinion, no one really knows for certain where Wing Chun comes from much more that 2 possibly 3 generations prior to Ip Man


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## kidswarrior (Feb 16, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I no longer train wing chun by the way, no time


Whadda ya mean? Whatcha doin between 2:00 & 4:00 am? 





> This  book discusses Wing CH\hun History a bit
> Wing Chun Kung Fu: Traditional Chinese King Fu for Self-Defense and Health
> By by Ip Chun and Michael Tse
> 
> Bottom-line, in my opinion, no one really knows for certain where Wing Chun comes from much more that 2 possibly 3 generations prior to Ip Man


Thanks.


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## geezer (Feb 16, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> I was wondering,does anyone here own the book on the Wing Chun lineage? It would be interesting to see or at least trace some of these lineages back to a source.I believe GM Ting had mentioned the border between Yunnan and Szechuan.OK.this probably should have been posted as a new thread,but why can't anything in this forum benefit all of us instead of dividing everyone,aren't we Wing Chun people here? Mr Kamon,what is it that you really hate about GM Leung Ting? I would never bad mouth Kevin Chan out of respect.Think!



I think the book you have in mind is_ Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun_ by Dr. Leung Ting available on line through the IWTMAA vendor ...something like "Wing Lam Supply" ? Its a quirky book, but packed with fascinating info, interviews, and pictures of  masters and forms from Fatshan, etc. Definately worth a look. Anyway, regarding being disrespectful...that's the way martial arts have gotten lately, and we WT guys have more than our share of the blame, so let's get over it! *Now let's get back on topic*--

To paraphrase "Xue Sheng": My stlyle of Wing Chun is the best _because I do it_ (also stolen from "Telner" over on FMA Talk). Now, each person is supposed to describe a particular, defining attribute of their system that they think is really cool. So, Kamon guy is supposed to come back (since it's his turn) and talk about some of the things that make Kamon a kick-*** system. *Got it? OK, now GO... *


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## arnisador (Feb 16, 2008)

_Complete Wing Chun_ (which has been discussed here before) also has lineage/history info.


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## qwksilver61 (Feb 16, 2008)

Hey,now this is the way we are supposed to behave! YEE-ha! you guys are all great! now we are getting somewhere!Thanks for all the great feedback.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Sorry, I just couldn't let this go. Unless you have trained personally and privately with "that idiot" as I had the opportunity to do many years ago, you really don't know the level of his technical skill, especially his legs. He can use his legs like most masters use their hands, and with enough power to shatter a wooden dummy leg with a short kick. I know because I was there. Of course that has nothing to do with whether one is an idiot or not, so I'm really not being contrary.
> 
> As far as there "being better people out there"--I suspect that some of the best never choose to go public and sell their skills, so we may never even know who they are. If Grandmaster Yip hadn't fallen on hard times in Hong Kong, would he ever have gone public with his teaching?


Sorry, are you talking about Leung Ting? I have trained with him on numerous occasions and my training partner knows him very well

You will find with me that I do not judge people on forums unless I have met and trained with them. 

As for shattering a wooden dummy with his legs? What the hell does that prove? I got hammered on a forum last year for mentioning that I enjoyed watching karate brick breaking. 
I personally can smash through wooden poles with my arms, so imagine what I can do with my legs. it doesn't mean that I have the right to cll every other wing chun style 'the wrong one'
There was an article not so long ago titled Leung Ting - The Big Fake. It is worth you reading it young friend

GoblinKing - pot calling kettle? Please elaborate. I think you will find that I have never stated Kamon is the best style in the world 
As I said i have found Master Chan to be the best martial artist I have met. But I haven't met everyone in the world!


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 18, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> And that is why GM Keith Kernshpecht is where he(GM) is,Boztepe has received the notoriety that he has (trained by Kernshpect) Sifu Steve Brandon (my Si-Hing),the list goes on.......GM Leung Ting holds the right (introduced Wing Tsun to Europe),he trained all of these people. Remember,ego ultimately leads to failure.I met GM Ting he is a very humble man,would you go so far as to challenge any senior student of his?are you really a Wing Tsun man?(yield until pressed?) or driven purely by ego?The proof is in the pudding,now lets quit sniping each other and stick to the subject matter.I'm sure that your *Sifu *would agree.Class, not out- class.*R-E-S-P-E-C-T!* for each other and the art.enough- said


If you read up properly, I think you would find that the above mentioned Sifu's have had major fallings out with LT
You think LT is a humble man? You really really need to have a look at some of his youtube clips and previous interviews
My personal experience is that he has very very odd ideas about the world of kung fu but is a very good businessman
My training partner (who I trust with my life) has heard LT dismiss numerous brands of wing chun as not being true to the original wing chun

I have respect for people who deserve respect. Respect doesn't come automatically because someone claims they are good at martial arts

I have no ego - I call it like I see it. As I have said, I am no master of wing chun, but the point of this thread was not to discuss what  think of myself. People start claiming that theyre wing chun style is the best and I'm the one that gets the abuse. Starting to see where people's heads are at here


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## geezer (Feb 18, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> If you read up properly, I think you would find that the above mentioned Sifu's have had major fallings out with LT



Yeah, I can give a few more names for your list--mine included--but what's the point? We have duly established that the aforementioned Sifu is a big...er ..."Richard"? We differ in that I still believe that he had some excellent techniques, and you feel he's bogus. When you come to the states, visit me in Arizona, see the Grand Canyon, and we can discuss it further. I think we would have a lot we could agree on. Alrighty then... NOW CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC???  Where was I? Oh yes, "Blah, blah, blah, _the best_. OK try this one. I said that I really liked the springy energy idea of WT. Through the previously discussed evil, bad, no-goodnik sifu, I learned how a springy or "elastic" quality in bong-sau  could be developed to absorb and deflect a strong punch. Prior to that, under the WC system of another Chinese sifu, I had learned to use a powerful, jolting bong sau to knock aside a punch, and even unbalance an opponent's stance. I preferred the springy bong-sau, since I'm not a big guy, but in the under the right conditions, the "jolting" bong sau could really do the trick. Now _you_ came along and, if I remember right, said you had great success with a deceptively "collapsing" bong-sau. I'd like to hear more about what "makes that the best" (f_or you, of course_}. If you ever make it out to Arizona and show it to me , then I'll have an understanding of three ways to apply bong-sau. Cool huh? That's why I started this thread!!!


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> Yeah, I can give a few more names for your list--mine included--but what's the point? We have duly established that the aforementioned Sifu is a big...er ..."Richard"? We differ in that I still believe that he had some excellent techniques, and you feel he's bogus. When you come to the states, visit me in Arizona, see the Grand Canyon, and we can discuss it further. I think we would have a lot we could agree on. Alrighty then... NOW CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC??? Where was I? Oh yes, "Blah, blah, blah, _the best_. OK try this one. I said that I really liked the springy energy idea of WT. Through the previously discussed evil, bad, no-goodnik sifu, I learned how a springy or "elastic" quality in bong-sau could be developed to absorb and deflect a strong punch. Prior to that, under the WC system of another Chinese sifu, I had learned to use a powerful, jolting bong sau to knock aside a punch, and even unbalance an opponent's stance. I preferred the springy bong-sau, since I'm not a big guy, but in the under the right conditions, the "jolting" bong sau could really do the trick. Now _you_ came along and, if I remember right, said you had great success with a deceptively "collapsing" bong-sau. I'd like to hear more about what "makes that the best" (f_or you, of course_}. If you ever make it out to Arizona and show it to me , then I'll have an understanding of three ways to apply bong-sau. Cool huh? That's why I started this thread!!!


Fair point. And you are the Geezer...
I'm a big guy and I used to fix my bong sao out so that my body turned (traditional style). I found that against a boxer this was no good
It also took a lot of energy each time
I played around with springy bong saos as per WT and various other styles. This was an improvement, but found that it was hard to derive 'return power' because although you were borrowing people's energy, it was only that amount of energy that you would return
With the collapsing bong sao (which is very similar) and taught to me through Kevin Chan, I found that You would draw the person right in (even good boxers) and return with their power plus your own power. 
More than anything, the angle of Kamon's bong sao is very good. High elbow means that once you are stuck with that person they will never be able to hit your centre line. I know that a lot of schools do it this way, but I have seen many schools that haven't and is almost like a lan sao. 

There are some clips on youtube of two Kamon guys doing chi sao and lok sao 'old school'. I know that the opponent isn't resisting but it just shows technique. Both guys have been training wing chun around ten years and are nice guys

Type in Kamon and have a look through the vids. Comments always welcome


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## geezer (Feb 19, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Fair point. And you are the Geezer...
> I'm a big guy and I used to fix my bong sao out so that my body turned (traditional style). I found that against a boxer this was no good
> It also took a lot of energy each time I played around with springy bong saos as per WT and various other styles. This was an improvement, but found that it was hard to derive 'return power' because although you were borrowing people's energy, it was only that amount of energy that you would return
> With the collapsing bong sao (which is very similar) and taught to me through Kevin Chan, I found that You would draw the person right in (even good boxers) and return with their power plus your own power.


 
Interesting...especially your experience that the "traditional" bong sau seemed too cumbersome in actual practice against a skilled opponent, such as a boxer. I had some similar problems with some of the stuff I was taught. In theory--the idea was great, but when I put it to the test against a worthy oppenent, I got into trouble. Of course I was told that a. I wasn't doing it well enough, and b. I just needed to practice it a few thousand times more. On my own, I started using a bong-sau that sounds a bit like what you describe. When the situation was right, It would "collapse, suckering-in my opponent, and worked great as a lead in to an elbow attack. I definately will try to check out those videos, but I can't get youtube on this computer. But, thanks anyway.


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## brocklee (Mar 23, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Fair point. And you are the Geezer...
> I'm a big guy and I used to fix my bong sao out so that my body turned (traditional style). I found that against a boxer this was no good
> It also took a lot of energy each time
> I played around with springy bong saos as per WT and various other styles. This was an improvement, but found that it was hard to derive 'return power' because although you were borrowing people's energy, it was only that amount of energy that you would return



How ya been Kamon?    unsquaring yourself from an opponent is disaster against any trained person.  It's as bad as pivoting around your centerline.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 25, 2008)

I've been great!! And yourself? 
Unsquaring yourself can be troublesome but I wouldn't say disastrous. 
You can open people (even trained people) up by using angles


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## brocklee (Mar 26, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> I've been great!! And yourself?
> Unsquaring yourself can be troublesome but I wouldn't say disastrous.
> You can open people (even trained people) up by using angles



Been doing well   Haven't trained with the sifu in a few months because I'm goin through hard times but other then that...Life's treating me grand.

I can see your point about becoming unsquare but it goes against the principle and opens up opportunities for an opponent to take your line.  There's no true benefit from not remaining square.  If you have to do so in order to perform a specific attack, you may want to reconsider.  The more you go off your line now, the more you have to correct later.

I know what you're saying though.  Every circumstance is different and may require you to break the rules.  It then comes down to how nimble and agile the practitioner is in order to correct that situation.


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## geezer (Mar 26, 2008)

brocklee said:


> Been doing well   Haven't trained with the sifu in a few months because I'm goin through hard times but other then that...Life's treating me grand.



Welcome back Brocklee--I haven't seen you on this site for a while. Now, time to play the game! What branch of WC are you currently practicing and what makes it "the best" (for _you_, at this moment in time). Any specifics re stance, techniques, etc. will be greatly appreciated!


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## brocklee (Mar 26, 2008)

geezer said:


> Welcome back Brocklee--I haven't seen you on this site for a while. Now, time to play the game! What branch of WC are you currently practicing and what makes it "the best" (for _you_, at this moment in time). Any specifics re stance, techniques, etc. will be greatly appreciated!



Thx for the warm wb geez   If you're asking which lineage.... Mine is Ip Man, Ho Kam Ming, Augustine Fong and then my sifu Joy Chaudhury.  

I don't believe there is a best style of WC because WC is just WC.  I've trained Lieung Ting's WT and noticed a few things that went against what I have been taught before and they couldn't seem to answer any of my questions.  So I left.

What I like about the lineage I'm under is that it sticks to the basic fundimentals of structure, center and lines.  Focus and speed come from remaining relaxed mentally and physically.  

Saying mine is the best would be an excellent display of western ideology.  WC is actually a tool btw


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## geezer (Mar 27, 2008)

brocklee said:


> Thx for the warm wb geez   If you're asking which lineage.... Mine is Ip Man, Ho Kam Ming, Augustine Fong and then my sifu Joy Chaudhury.



Well, you've found a great Sifu! I haven't seen Joy in many tears, but I have great respect for him and your Si-Gung (Augustine) Fong Chi Wing. I'm currently training with my Si-dais Jeff Webb and Robert Jacquet. When Jeff was out here about two weeks ago, he had lunch with your Si-fu and really enjoyed seeing him again. So now that you know you won't hurt my feelings, tell me what you noticed that was different about the LT Chi-sau_ from that other instructor_ and the Fong/Chaudhuri version coming from Ho Kam Ming?


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## geezer (Mar 27, 2008)

geezer said:


> Well, you've found a great Sifu! I haven't seen Joy in many tears,


OK, that's supposed to be "many years". The evil god of unintentional typographical puns really hates me. Sooo sorry!


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## brocklee (Mar 30, 2008)

geezer said:


> Well, you've found a great Sifu! I haven't seen Joy in many tears, but I have great respect for him and your Si-Gung (Augustine) Fong Chi Wing. I'm currently training with my Si-dais Jeff Webb and Robert Jacquet. When Jeff was out here about two weeks ago, he had lunch with your Si-fu and really enjoyed seeing him again. So now that you know you won't hurt my feelings, tell me what you noticed that was different about the LT Chi-sau_ from that other instructor_ and the Fong/Chaudhuri version coming from Ho Kam Ming?



That's great that you know of Joy.  He really is an amazing person and teacher.  Unfortunately I cannot compare the two chi-sau differences.  This was because I was told it would take about a year or so before I could start joining the chi-sau group at LT WT...so I've never had the opportunity.  My first chi-sau instruction was in southern mexico about 13 years ago and it is much different then that of Joy's teaching.  The chi-sau down there was much softer and repetitious.  It almost felt like slap boxing.  

Joy's is the opposite of that and you really feel the other person's structure and where its breaking point is.  Feeling the other person's structure allows you to find holes that you can't normally see with your eyes.  Then you're able to open them up and topple them over with your structure.  Also, he teaches the fundamentals of remaining relaxed, as far as muscles are concerned, and using the bones and joints to do the work.  He works with you to develop the most efficient punch as possible.


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## geezer (Mar 30, 2008)

brocklee said:


> My first chi-sau instruction was in southern mexico about 13 years ago and it is much different then that of Joy's teaching. The chi-sau down there was much softer and repetitious. It almost felt like slap boxing. quote]
> 
> Ok, eso es el colmo! Where did you train in Southern Mexico??? That's really interesting! PM me, ...we gotta talk! Also, I'm getting back into Wing Tsun/Chun and trying to get an open Chi Sau group together. Lately I've been meeting with a few guys out in Tempe. PM , email or call me.


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## brocklee (Apr 1, 2008)

I trained WC and Kalia Escrima at Do-No-Kai Martial Arts temple which is located on Lake Chapalla in Ajijic.  Unfortunately I have entirely too much on my plate right now to be able to chi-sau.  I think its going to be 2-3 months before I can.  Ill keep it in mind and will give you a PM when the opportunity arises.

Thank you for the offer


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