# What forms do you know?



## Tensei85 (Jun 1, 2009)

Hey,
Just wanted to start a thread on what forms the various practs know or utilize in there training?

You don't have to name all of them or any of them, but I thought it would be interesting to compare.

I guess I'll start.

Qi Xing Tong Long Quan:

Shi er lu tan tui
Gong li quan
Diu Jin
Shi si lu tan tui
Beng Bu
Cha Chui
Dou Gang
Shi ba shou
Hei hu jia jiao
Jie quan
Bai yuan tuo tao
Bai yuan chu dong
Da fan che (some)
Wu long gun
Bagua dao
Mei hua chiang
Sheung bei 
Shi ba luo han qi gong (18 sections)

Wing Chun

Siu Nim Tau
Cham Kiu
Biu Ji
Muk Yan Jong
Luk Dim Poon Guan
Baat Jaam Dao

Ext:
Bai Jong Baat Bou Jin
Kuen Jong Dip Guat Gong

Bei Shaolin:
(Still practice)

Wu bu quan
Lian huan quan
Jin gang quan
Gong li quan
12 section tan tui
Xiao hong quan
Da Lohan
Shaolin Gun
Hua quan

Qigong:

Tong Bei (qigong)
Zhan Zhuang
Shi Ba Luohan
Yi Jin Jing
Ba Duan Jin

And sometimes a little Taiji. 

And then I still enjoy the Bagua Long Dao as well (awesome form!)

Those are a list of forms I find useful to still practice on a regular basis a lot of the other forms I haven't put much focus on anymore.


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## clfsean (Jun 2, 2009)

Oiy this could take a minute.

Also, let me preface that these are forms I've learned through the years. Some have gone the way of the dodo in my head, others are practiced almost daily. All were taught by a person qualified to teach them. I'm not a forms collector by any stretch of the word, but in meeting people with & thru my sifu & his kung fu brothers, if something was offered, it was accepted gratefully.

*Choy Li Fut*:
Cerng Lo Fu Jow Kuen
Siu Lin Wan Kuen
Siu Ping Kuen
Siu Moi Fa Kuen
Siu Pao Kuen
Siu Jin Kuen
Siu Sup Ji Kuen
Siu Hung Kuen
Ng Lun Ma
Ng Lun Choi
Che Kuen
Cheong Kuen
Sup Ji Kau Dah Kuen
Ng Ying Kuen
Law Horn Fook Fu Kuen
Law Horn Sup Bat Sao Hei Gung
Soi Poon Gun
Bing Gwai Gun
Siu Moi Fah Gun
Hung Sing Moi Fa Dao
Hung Sing Cheung
Hung Sing Cerng Bei Sao
Hung Sing Dip Dao
Sup Ji Cerng Bei Sao
Hung Sao Yup Seung Bei Sao

*Lung Ying Jing Jung*:
Sup Luk Dong

*Songshan Bei Shaolin*:
Lohan Quan

*Taiji Quan*:
Cheng Man Ching 37 Step
Chen 18 Step
PRC 24 Step
Ba Duan Jing

*Xingyi Quan*:
5 Roads
12 Animals

*Wah Lum/Praying Mantis*:
San Sup Lok Sao
Law Horn Kuen
Fut Jeurng
Bak Yuan Tao To
Lan Jeet
Siu Fan Che
Yin Chin Kuen
Sup Lok Gun
Lok Hop Gun
Wah Lum Dao
Wah Lum Joi Dao
Wah Lum Dip Do
Ching Ping Gim
Cerng Sao Gim
Dai So Gee
Fu Mei Sam Jeet Gun


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## Joab (Jun 2, 2009)

Thosen are long lists! i'm more in the RBSD keep it simple belief. What do I know? Not a lot, and I'm still learning on all of them, but basically competent includes: Chin jab, axe handle chop, side kick to the knee, back kick to the knee, upper cut to the solar plexus, knee to the testicles, cupped hands to the ears, tiger claw to the eyes, eye gouges, front kick to the testicles, finger thrusts to the eyes, basically simple, rather savage techniques to keep a maniac from killing you is what I know and hope to never use.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2009)

I am not going to get into the push hands patterns

What I still do

*Yang Taijiquan*
Traditional Yang Long form
2 fast forms
2 Dao forms
1 Jian form
Staff

What I did most recently

*Hebei** Style Xingyiquan* (I'm a recovering Xingyi Junkie )
Wu Xing
And sorry but I can't remember the Chinese for the 5 elements connected so I will just sat Wu Xing connected form
Xingyi Staff

*Sanda* (police/Military) No forms just a lot of painful training :EG:

*Chen Style Taijiquan*
18 form
Laojia Yilu
Old style Laojia Yilu

*Wing Chun*
Siu nim tao

Going further back

*Bagua*
2 forms from 2 styles of Bagua one was Yin and the other was either Cheng or Jiang (I think)

*Shaolin long fist the Contemporary Wushu edition*
Shaolin Changquan, 1 form and I don't remember the name
Shaolin Changquan Jian Form
Shaolin Changquan Dao Form
Shaolin Staff

*Assorted*
Wu style competition form
Yang style 24 form
Chen Competition form
48 form
32 form jian

There is more (not much, but I know I am forgetting something) but for the life of me I can't remember them all

Now if I go further back I get into TKD and Jujitsu.

*Qigong*

Ba Duan Jin
Xingyi Neigong
A form of Tibetan Qigong
A Taoist form of Qigong
Zhan Zhuang
The Crane from the frolics (I always wanted to learn the 5 animal frolics but I never learned any others)
Chan Su Jin form Chen style
Multiple forms from Yang style (this is the only Qigong I still do)
I believe there is one or two more but I would have to get my notes

And of course Santi Shi training.

I'm not going into the yoga stuff


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## clfsean (Jun 2, 2009)

Joab said:


> Thosen are long lists! i'm more in the RBSD keep it simple belief. What do I know? Not a lot, and I'm still learning on all of them, but basically competent includes: Chin jab, axe handle chop, side kick to the knee, back kick to the knee, upper cut to the solar plexus, knee to the testicles, cupped hands to the ears, tiger claw to the eyes, eye gouges, front kick to the testicles, finger thrusts to the eyes, basically simple, rather savage techniques to keep a maniac from killing you is what I know and hope to never use.



All those sets are the same things, just in different order, different directions, different intentions, etc...


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## Chazmek (Jun 3, 2009)

Snake

Hurricane Hands
Leopard Fist (it's actually a Snake form)
Chum 1 (I don't know Cantonese, and haven't been able to figure out what "chum" means)
Bridge 1
Bridge 2
Snake vs. Five Animals
Slicing Rolling Hands
[Unnamed Snake grappling form]
Angry Snake Defends Its Lair (dao form)
Dragon

Little Red Dragon
Box Form (Blue Dragon)
[Unnamed Green Dragon form]
Lung Qi
Northern Mantis

Beng Bu Quan ("smashing step form")
[Unnamed staff form]
Black Crane

Black Crane 1
Tiger vs. Crane (no relation to the Hung Gar form)
Southern Tiger

Defending the Five Points of the Star
Wing Chun

Sil Lum Dao
Bagua

Eight Basic Palms
Liang Yi
Xingyi

Five Elements
Miscellanious

Iron Needle
Silken Needle
[Unnamed Five Animals form]
Tendon Changing
Five Organ Breathing
Eight Brocades of Silk
...wow, I never realized how many forms I've learned over the years...!


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## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

Chazmek said:


> Chum 1 (I don't know Cantonese, and haven't been able to figure out what "chum" means)



Normally means "Sink" or "Sinking"... i.e the Chum Kiu (sinking bridge) technique... fairly common in southern CMA.


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## Chazmek (Jun 3, 2009)

Oh, that's interesting...
I'm surprised I couldn't find that in my dictionary.
What's the Mandarin word for that?

I'm not sure why that form would be called "Sinking".
It's a very basic form out of the Baishequan style; no low or long stances at all; only shallow horse stances, high forward stances, and high cat stances; no kicks whatsoever; lots of fast, soft Snake-y hand stuff. There are a couple nifty throw applications in there if you look closely, but it's mainly just a glorified hand technique drill with some breathing exercises added in...

"Sinking"....strange...
I'll ask my instructor what his thoughts are.

Thanks!


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## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

[SIZE=+2]

[/SIZE] chen2*(Mandarin)* sink, submerge; cham4 *(Canto)*
Cham/Chum... same thing, Canto dialect... Siu vs Sil, Gar vs Ga, Li vs Lee vs Lay, etc...


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## Joab (Jun 3, 2009)

clfsean said:


> All those sets are the same things, just in different order, different directions, different intentions, etc...


  I believe in the KISS principle, keep it simple stupid, not suggesting your stupid, it's the acronym. At any rate, your right, and I probably shouldn't have written it in the context of Chinese martial arts, just couldn't resist...


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## oxy (Jun 3, 2009)

Wow. I feel so inadequate 

*7* Praying Mantis*

Sup Baat Sau
Tsaap Tsui
Bung Bo
Mui Fa Quan

*Liu He Ba Fa
*
Jook Gei
Coiled Dragon Quan
12 Animals

*Erle Montaigue** Yang Taiji* (apparently)

Long form
Small Sansou
Large Sansou (starting on it)

*Miscellaneous
*
Yan Qing Dan Dao


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## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

Joab said:


> I believe in the KISS principle, keep it simple stupid, not suggesting your stupid, it's the acronym. At any rate, your right, and I probably shouldn't have written it in the context of Chinese martial arts, just couldn't resist...



I know what you mean with the KISS... no worries. 

But with many CMA's people think we're all the same. We're not. Many of the Southern CMAs (what I practice) aren't that complex. There's a handful of techniques that make up the system. Everything else is a set up to work it & those are far & few between.


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## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

oxy said:


> Wow. I feel so inadequate
> 
> *7* Praying Mantis*
> 
> ...



Not even... your Tang Lang is just missing two of the Wang Lang sets & maybe a stick & sword & honestly, you've got all you need. More doesn't make it better. I've just accepted some as gifts from kf uncles & family that my sifu thought I'd like.


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## oxy (Jun 3, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Not even... your Tang Lang is just missing two of the Wang Lang sets & maybe a stick & sword & honestly, you've got all you need. More doesn't make it better. I've just accepted some as gifts from kf uncles & family that my sifu thought I'd like.



Pardon my ignorance:

What are the other two Wang Lang sets? (I only knew of Bung Bo being one of the originals). I learnt Praying Mantis from my LHBF teacher who did learn more forms but only found the four that he still teaches as "memorable".

Also, l learnt the Yan Qing Dan Dao form as part of my Praying Mantis but apparently it's part of a separate broadsword style that was incorporated into 7* and apparently other styles. Other than that, I wouldn't know what stick or sword form is a good base.


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## clfsean (Jun 3, 2009)

oxy said:


> Pardon my ignorance:
> 
> What are the other two Wang Lang sets? (I only knew of Bung Bo being one of the originals). I learnt Praying Mantis from my LHBF teacher who did learn more forms but only found the four that he still teaches as "memorable".



Lan Jeet & Baat Jang (Jan Jie & Ba Zhou in Mandarin)



oxy said:


> Also, l learnt the Yan Qing Dan Dao form as part of my Praying Mantis but apparently it's part of a separate broadsword style that was incorporated into 7* and apparently other styles. Other than that, I wouldn't know what stick or sword form is a good base.



Yan Qing is a great Dao set. I've seen it several times. Stick... I dunno... everybody's got "their" stick set for their style. I couldn't tell you for sure. I know for CLF if you don't have Bing Gwai Gun, you don't have CLF (or so it's said)...


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## Tensei85 (Jun 4, 2009)

Oxy,

As far as Gun's (Guan) I would have to say for Mantis 
The Ng Lung Guan, Doi Lam Guan, or even Luk Hop Guan would all be great Gun forms.

Also I thoroughly enjoy the Bei Shaolin Gun set as well. 

And the Ba Gua Dao form set is pretty cool as well. 

For the Chiang I would have to say my favorite is Moy Fa Chiang, its sweet with some pretty memorable movements.

all the best,


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## clfsean (Jun 4, 2009)

And there you have it... not "the" answer (as if there ever is one), but a good one!!


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## masherdong (Jun 4, 2009)

WOW!!!  You all have a lot of forms!  Makes my list look thin. 

Anyhow, here are mine:

*Taiji Plum Flower/Wah Lum Praying Mantis*:

Warrior Stance Set
7 Hands
7 Kicks Set
Dropping Horse
8 Punches
Little Open Gate
Jer Lu
Little Mantis
Tang Lang Bu Chuan
White Ape Steals the Peach
18 Elbows

*Weapons:*

Jade Staff
Plum Flower Stick
Straight Sword
Broadsword
Double Sai

*Hong Style Chen Tai Chi:*

Yilu

My next three forms I will be learning are:

Lo Han
Zhai Yao
Spear

Not bad for a guy with a little over 2 yrs of mantis training.


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## clfsean (Jun 4, 2009)

Zhai Yao... good stuff. 

I learned a version of the 4th Route years ago.


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## masherdong (Jun 5, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Zhai Yao... good stuff.
> 
> I learned a version of the 4th Route years ago.



Hmm, I dont know which version ours is but it looks cool!


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Hmm, I dont know which version ours is but it looks cool!



There's 6 of them I believe. TJMH has all 6 if I remember correctly, or maybe it's up to the teacher, dunno.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

masherdong said:


> WOW!!! You all have a lot of forms! Makes my list look thin.


 
My list is from 18 years of training (not including the TKD and Jujitsu - then we are over 30 years), all I do now is

*Yang Taijiquan*
Traditional Yang Long form
2 fast forms
2 Dao forms
1 Jian form
Staff
Various types of push hands
Associated Qigong

Now that list is thin


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> My list is from 18 years of training (not including the TKD and Jujitsu - then we are over 30 years), all I do now is
> 
> *Yang Taijiquan*
> Traditional Yang Long form
> ...



Oh crud... I don't count the TKD forms I knew & the ones I teach now... I was looking just at current (last 6 years or so) of CMA ... and thinking about it I've forgotten a couple of forms from the list... oh well... .


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## Tensei85 (Jun 6, 2009)

masherdong said:


> WOW!!!  You all have a lot of forms!  Makes my list look thin.
> 
> My next three forms I will be learning are:
> 
> ...




Not bad at all: The Zhai Yao forms are awesome! You'll enjoy them on a side note which Lo Han are you learning if you don't mind me asking?


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## masherdong (Jun 7, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Not bad at all: The Zhai Yao forms are awesome! You'll enjoy them on a side note which Lo Han are you learning if you don't mind me asking?



I think it is the Wah Lum version.  Not too sure.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 7, 2009)

I used to practice the TKD Palgwe 1-8 & Taeguek 1-8 and once in awhile I crack out the TKD Koryo form. And I remember Judo had 4 or 5 two man Kata's as well. The ones I used to practice were Itsutsu No Kata & Katame No Kata. (Pretty sweet!) I learned 1 more but forgot the name.

On a side note I used to practice some Arnis forms (pretty cool)

And the Pinan Kata's from Shotokan I think 1-6. Along with the Bo & Tonfa as well as the Sai. (All very cool)

My favorite was probably the Katana forms I learned from Aikido & Kenjutsu.

And of course the Wudang Dragon sword forms were awesome!

But mostly now I just practice CMA forms.


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## clfsean (Jun 7, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> I used to practice the TKD Palgwe 1-8 & Taeguek 1-8 and once in awhile I crack out the TKD Koryo form. And I remember Judo had 4 or 5 two man Kata's as well. The ones I used to practice were Itsutsu No Kata & Katame No Kata. (Pretty sweet!) I learned 1 more but forgot the name.
> 
> On a side note I used to practice some Arnis forms (pretty cool)
> 
> ...



I teach the Taeguk at the TKD school I teach at. 

PS... Shotokan = Heian 1 -5 (Japanese)... Shorin ryu = Pinan 1-  (Okinawan)


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## Tensei85 (Jun 7, 2009)

Lol, thanks for the clarification clfsean,
We were always told they were Pinan, wow I've heard of Heian before though.
Ill have to go back & compare: However I wasn't sure of the number so it probably was just 1-5 they were teaching.

Thanks for the info, ill have to do some more research. I haven't trained with them for probably atleast 10 years though...


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## clfsean (Jun 7, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Lol, thanks for the clarification clfsean,
> We were always told they were Pinan, wow I've heard of Heian before though.
> Ill have to go back & compare: However I wasn't sure of the number so it probably was just 1-5 they were teaching.
> 
> Thanks for the info, ill have to do some more research. I haven't trained with them for probably atleast 10 years though...




No prob... they mean the same in English (Peace), but one is Nihongo & the other Uchinadi.


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## geezer (Jun 7, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Hey,
> Just wanted to start a thread on what forms the various practs know or utilize in there training?



I _train_ Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Tse, Mook Yang Jong Fa and Luk Dim Boon Kwun in the Wing Tsun system. I've yet to be taught Bart Cham Dao. 

I also do a bit of Eskrima and we _practice_ a couple of training sets... but they are not really anything like traditional forms.

As to what I _know_...



...Well to _know_ you must be able to perform it effortlessly without conscious thought. You must have a deep understanding of application...

And, you must be able to instinctively and effectively use the movements if attacked. 

So, I maybe I know a _little_. I don't know these forms fully. Not by a long shot. But I know a little. Yes.


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## yak sao (Jun 11, 2009)

I trained in a Southern shaolin (ish) system for several years and had a long laundry list of forms. I loved doing them....the longer and more complex the better.
I have been training in Wing Tsun since 1995, and at first I missed all the forms training. But after a while it was a luxury to be able to focus on a limited number of forms/techniques. I no longer feel as if I'm juggling, spinning plates, treading water (choose your analogy). 
While I have miles to go, the journey is a lot more enjoyable for me now because I'm not lugging around a big trunk full of forms.


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## geezer (Jun 11, 2009)

yak sao said:


> I trained in a Southern shaolin (ish) system for several years and had a long laundry list of forms. I loved doing them....the longer and more complex the better.
> I have been training in Wing Tsun since 1995, and at first I missed all the forms training. But after a while it was a luxury to be able to focus on a limited number of forms/techniques. I no longer feel as if I'm juggling, spinning plates, treading water (choose your analogy).
> While I have miles to go, the journey is a lot more enjoyable for me now because I'm not lugging around a big trunk full of forms.



I know exactly how you feel. WT has a very streamlined curriculum compared with most other Chinese martial arts, and I find that liberating. I find memorizing long forms difficult and time-consuming. Worse, I have to constantly repeat them or I forget them. You talk about "spinning plates". I look at all the forms listed by Tensei and a few others and thank god that I don't have to keep all those plates spinning. I would have quit years ago.


On the other hand, people are very different in the way they learn. I've met individuals with incredible memories. Some have "photographic" visual memories, some have musical memory, and some have a sort of _kinetic memory_. Many professional dancers have that to some degree. After developing their foundation in their art, they can assimilate and retain new routines very quickly. I can only assume that the same skill set must be necessary to master those martial arts that have many complex forms. I can also sympathize with the frustration of individuals who lack that kind of memory but who still have good athletic ability. Such a person might be a great fighter, but struggle with forms... in fact, for this kind of person, training  a lot of forms might impede their martial development. It's really a question of finding a good fit. 

As for myself, my plate is very full with what WT has to offer. Between the forms and drills, especially all the chi-sau "sections", I still have a hard time remembering the material. And I haven't seen it all yet.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2009)

geezer said:


> I look at all the forms listed by Tensei and a few others and thank god that I don't have to keep all those plates spinning. I would have quit years ago.


 
Why do you think I stopped everything but Yang Taijiquan 



geezer said:


> As for myself, my plate is very full with what WT has to offer. Between the forms and drills, especially all the chi-sau "sections", I still have a hard time remembering the material. And I haven't seen it all yet.


 
Yup that about covers why I do only Yang Taijiquan these days... except substitue YT for WT and push hands or Tuishou for Chi-sau


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## Tensei85 (Jun 12, 2009)

I agree, Wing Chun's awesome! What it expresses is economy of motion.
Simplicity, Efficiency & Directness. This transfers over to the form practice at the same time teaching core concepts. It seems that's how its defined.

The way I see it for Wing Chun is there's no need for anything else other than SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ, LDPK & BJD. But I've also heard that the original form was only SNT and the other forms were added later during the Red Boat time period. So I guess there may be some room for modification as to meet the needs of practs today.

What do you guys think: Should a system like Wing Chun or even Taiji be modified to meet the various ranges of fighting in today's standards as seen especially in MMA matches? Or is it more tailor it for a specific need? Such as if you want to fight by MMA rules you have to in some form tailor it to meet that specific goal.

There are some Wing Chun fighters that are doing well in MMA matches with what would be called Wing Chun body mechanics. But at the same time they still had to add various elements including grappling into their game. (in other words some people would say thats not Wing Chun when watching there fights)

Even in the San Shou fights that I took place in atleast some form of throwing and kicking were needed. If not anything else than to understand the general guidelines of ranges of fighting. 

So in CMA the common elements of Fighting Ranges are Ti/Da/Suai/Na
Kick/Hit/Throw/Lock these transfer over to most if not all CMA's. 


On a side note: Systems like Tong Long (7 star) have 88 common forms with variables ranging from well over 100 forms, CLF has a ton of forms as mentioned. But each of these forms express important concepts that are being trained from a mental level all the way to the body mechanics.


However one thing I would like to say is that even in Tong Long Quan forms such as Beng Bu & Sap Sei Lo Tan Toy have enough info to keep a pract. busy for atleast a years time period. So certain forms and movements become hard to perfect or master and other forms become a little redundant at times. But at the same time the Praying Mantis system was supposed to be a 10 year system, that may be a little hard to memorize 88 forms with all the San Da techniques. Let alone training of the concepts & principles.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 12, 2009)

Should the systems be modified for MMA? Nope

If you want to do MMA with a CMA use good sports Sanda and follow the example of Cung Le.

Sanda (sanshou) is already based on a lot of CMA styles. It is however more evident in the police military version than the sport version but you could not use the police military version in an MMA ring. Not that it is any super CMA or to dangerous it is just not training to follow MMA rules and would get you disqualified fast. 

I felt more similarity in the transfer of power between Taijiquan or Xingyiquan with Police military Sanda than I did with any other styles I have trained. However in Police/Military Sanda there is no talk of Qi.


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## Tamojin (May 15, 2010)

Wow some of these guys know more forms than most Sifu!

7 Star Praying Mantis forms 

Horse Stance Sequence
Doi Jau
Sup Sei Lo
Cheng Quan
Daw Gong
Dun Quan


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## East Winds (May 16, 2010)

There is a difference between "Knowing Forms" and knowing the essence of an art!!!!!!

Very best wishes


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## mograph (May 16, 2010)

Indeed. 

_Principles_ are nice.


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## Shifu Steve (May 25, 2010)

Personally I know 20 empty hand and 5 weapons forms (short sticks, short staff and long staff).  I generally run all of them once sometimes twice a week however there are 5 that I run each morning and use as a reference point for technique.  I don't really see the need for more at this point in my training as I feel there are so many concepts expressed in the ones I have that adding more is basically just skinning the proverbial cat a different way.  

Some of those that responded to the post knew quite a few forms.  I know there is such a thing as "collecting" forms but I am curious as to how many are used for training and how many are learned for another reason (e.g. tradition or lineage). 

I am sure that at some point I'll break down and examine all the kata I know but it's a lifetime of learning so these things have a way of revealing themselves through practice and repetition.  

Also, in addition to the kata are there a number of Qigong exercises everyone practices?  I was taught Da Mo's 18 Muscle Change Classic and 5 Beasts At Play (5 Animal Frolic).  There were a number of supplementary exercises as well including such as Iron Leg.


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## clfsean (May 25, 2010)

Shifu Steve said:


> Personally I know 20 empty hand and 5 weapons forms (short sticks, short staff and long staff).  I generally run all of them once sometimes twice a week however there are 5 that I run each morning and use as a reference point for technique.  I don't really see the need for more at this point in my training as I feel there are so many concepts expressed in the ones I have that adding more is basically just skinning the proverbial cat a different way.
> 
> Some of those that responded to the post knew quite a few forms.  I know there is such a thing as "collecting" forms but I am curious as to how many are used for training and how many are learned for another reason (e.g. tradition or lineage).
> 
> ...



Kata == Japanese btw, not Chinese but I know what you're talking about.

The sets are the textbooks. Each will present a topic or idea. Some are more "comprehensive" than others or focus solely on one or two things along with complementary ideas & techniques. Drills and practice comes from the sets.

As long as the sets are related to the same art, it's not collecting as long as you discern something new or different in each. Some styles only have a couple of sets because they have set the training to draw from it. Others lay it out by "connect the dots" with multiple sets.

I can distill everything I need down to one or two sets. But I like the exercise & mental workout with multiple sets. Also in practicing multiple styles, I have to maintain multiple practice routines to match. But that's not as prevalent in my day to day training any longer.

The big thing on sets is to maintain style integrity, sets have to be maintained. If you move to a non set-based art, then you replace sets with drills & you have to remember somehow all the different techniques. Sets make it easy.

It's a personal thing. 

I'm still waiting though on my last question to you about the Song dynasty Praying Mantis you mentioned. How about some info on it?


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## Shifu Steve (May 25, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Kata == Japanese btw, not Chinese but I know what you're talking about.
> 
> I'm still waiting though on my last question to you about the Song dynasty Praying Mantis you mentioned. How about some info on it?


 
Thanks for making the inference about the kata. 

I saw your question but can't offer you a detailed history of the Mantis I learned as I don't really know. I recently asked my Shifu (Sifu)about it and all he told me was that it was a Shaolin take on Seven Star brought to the U.S. by Grand Master Pai. One of the guys I trained with under him now trains with his teacher (Dennis Hardy) who may know a very detailed history of the style. Personally I'd like to know more about it so the next time I have the opportunity to speak with him I'm going to ask about this.


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## mograph (May 25, 2010)

For what it's worth, I look at the principles as the "lessons", with the form as the "lab" where the lessons are practiced and expanded upon.

Also, once you have a solid grounding in the principles of an, it's easier to learn new forms in that art, because you see the principles within the forms again and again.

Just a thought ...


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## Tamojin (May 25, 2010)

Honestly its seems like with the amount of forms some of these guys know I think they thought the question was "How many forms have you heard of! " lol


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## clfsean (May 25, 2010)

Don't hate... keeps the basics from being boring.


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## yak sao (May 25, 2010)

mograph said:


> For what it's worth, I look at the principles as the "lessons", with the form as the "lab" where the lessons are practiced and expanded upon.
> 
> Also, once you have a solid grounding in the principles of an, it's easier to learn new forms in that art, because you see the principles within the forms again and again.
> 
> Just a thought ...


 

Reminds me of a quote..."the forms are not the system, the system is in   the forms"


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## mograph (May 26, 2010)

mograph said:


> ... once you have a solid grounding in the principles of an, it's easier to learn new forms in that art ...



Sorry, that should be "principles of an art". 

Or maybe it's a secret style called "an" .... very mysterious ...


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