# Chuan fa



## monkey (May 23, 2006)

The 12 monks & all their skill even wepons of the Chaun fa or china hand.Some called it 18 lohan or Buduh palm,but they each had wepons like the Tomo cane-the tong fa was longer by 6" & the chain whips & staffs.I dont know exactly what temple or the total of wepon skills but it was on A.& E, doc with George Taki narration.The Okinawans changed the name from Chaun fa  or china hand to karate do or empty hand way.


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## Andrew Green (May 23, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> The Okinawans changed the name from Chaun fa  or china hand to karate do or empty hand way.



Chuan fa does not mean China hand.

Why would the Chinese name thier own art "China Hand"?

"Chaun Fa" in Japanese is "Kenpo"


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## TimoS (May 23, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> The Okinawans changed the name from Chaun fa  or china hand to karate do or empty hand way.



Well, as I remember it, chuan fa is pronounced kempo in japanese and it means fist method. China hand would be karate, but with a different kanji than is currently used. In okinawan language/dialect (can't remember which it was) karate was tode. Seems your history is a bit off


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## monkey (May 23, 2006)

Chaun fa was stated on A.& E. alot they did misplace example the showed early films of Wally jay in Hawii do the aikido art & right after Had Gracy exsplain their art .Later Wally Jay was intro as small circle & had not be given credit for that bit of film.Ask A.& E. I can only state I think chaun fa  or the fist art of these monks should have been shown & detaialed  If it was a part of the Okinawana.History or His Story is all we go by till some one brings dacs. ect to stipulate or correct.I hope you agree on that.


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## Andrew Green (May 23, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I hope you agree on that.



I don't agree to things when I don't understand what is being said?

Are you stating that A&E said "Chuan Fa" = "China Hand" and that is your source?

If that is the case I suggest looking to more reliable sources as A&E is not really a "expert" on martial arts history.


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## BushidoUK (May 23, 2006)

just to clarify, it was the japanese who renamed "china hand" to "empty hand" as they did not want to any association with chinese influences when karate came to Japan

One of my instructors still teaches To Te (or To De) as a 'jitsu', not 'do' art, rather than karate, and the chinese influence is very visible.

I still maintain that karate retains its original name of china hand and incorporates the kobudo weapons as part of its integral syllabus not an add on. 

Me, I call what I do Karate Jitsu, to reflect the philosphy of training as a jitsu art rather than a do art, and the mix of Ju Jitsu within the syllabus.


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## TimoS (May 23, 2006)

BushidoUK said:
			
		

> just to clarify, it was the japanese who renamed "china hand" to "empty hand" as they did not want to any association with chinese influences when karate came to Japan



No, it was the okinawans. The first written reference to karate using the current kanji is already over a 100 years ago, in 1905 in a book by Hanashiro Chomo. Then the final decision to adopt the "empty hand" meaning was done in the "meeting of masters" in 1936. More e.g. here


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## Brandon Fisher (May 23, 2006)

I agree look to more accurate sources then A&E,  Wally Jay was not a student of Aikido his main system was Danzan Ryu Ju Jitsu and Judo.


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## monkey (May 24, 2006)

True Wally Jay- Bernie Lau & Mike Irabela are all Danzan ryu jujitsu.I do have that old film & restored it for Professor Jay, as it had a tint to it & I put to b/w.He sent a signed photo & big thanks.(A.& E. may not have all facts) but the Chuan fa never ment kenpo.If any thing China Hand>Im not sure on dialect as there are over 3000 but I do Know its not Kempo or japanese.Dojosai.


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## TimoS (May 24, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Chuan fa never ment kenpo.If any thing China Hand>Im not sure on dialect as there are over 3000 but I do Know its not Kempo or japanese.



Well then you're simply wrong! Why don't you educate yourself a bit before you start arguing such basic stuff! Here's just one link that proves you wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kempo

Don't believe that? Search Google. Show me where chuan fa is translated into china hand

Here's the kanji for chuan fa (or quan fa, depending on romanization) &#25331;&#27861; (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quan_fa)
Here's the kanji for Shorinji kempo &#23569;&#26519;&#23546;&#25331;&#27861; (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorinji_Kempo)

See the last two kanji in Shorinji Kempo? Now compare those to the characters for chuan fa and tell me that they're different!


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## Brandon Fisher (May 24, 2006)

Everyone is correct Chuan Fa does mean mean kempo in Japanese and China hand with the first kanji character different then that we know today means karate.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> Everyone is correct Chuan Fa does mean mean kempo in Japanese and China hand with the first kanji character different then that we know today means karate.



Actually both Kanji are different.

Chuan Fa = Kenpo  (Fist Law, Kanji above)

The Okinawans refered to it as  Toudi, or some other similar spellign depending on where you look.  In Korean this is "Tang Soo", as in Tang Soo Do.

The first Character refering to the Tang dynasty, and then China in general.  The second to hand.

When it went to Japan they needed too loose the Chinese connection, so the first character became the one for hand, and the name became "karate"


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## Brandon Fisher (May 24, 2006)

I should have post that later I meant the kanji are different. I was rushing and didn't double check my post.


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## KenpoTess (May 26, 2006)

Assist. Admin Note:

This thread has been created as a split from the topic 'Weapon's in Karate'.

Continue your conversation on Chuan fa.  

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT Assistant Admin.


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## Andrew Green (May 26, 2006)

This name change was "officialized" at a meeting of many of the top guys in Okinawa in 1936.  Here's a translation of the minutes:

http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html

Edit - this might be incomplete, but is still good historical info


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## Tripitaka of AA (May 27, 2006)

The Internet can be a great source of knowledge... or a place to perpetuate myths misinformation and factual inaccuracy. It is up to the reader to ensure that they retain the good and ignore the bad.

*Fortunately*, in forums like this, there are plenty of people around who have reliable knowledge and references to back it up. *Unfortunately*, there are people who are half right, but twice as loud.

Is everyone clear on the Chinese phrase/word "Chuan Fa"/"Quan Fa"? 
We'll do it once more;

It is written in Chinese (either Cantonese or Mandarin, the two most common dialects outside China) with the characters &#25331;&#27861;

It has the same characters in Japanese where it is pronounced "Kempo" and can also be written &#12369;&#12435;&#12413;&#12358; (which are the Hiragana characters that correspond to Ke-N-Po-U).

It would be translated to English as "Fist Method" or sometimes "Fist Law". It does not describe a single identifiable Art when used on its own. There is no single Art called "Kempo". It would be like saying "Dancing" when you want to refer to "Ballroom Dancing" or "Disco Dancing" or "Inuit Kayak and Polar Bear reunification Dancing".

"Karate" has a different origin altogether. It started on Okinawa, where it was called "Tode" or "Te". When it became known as "Kara-te" it was originally written with a character meaning "China" but this was later changed to a different character for "Kara" which had the same sound but meant instead "Empty". This change was made to help in the introduction of Karate into mainland Japan.


All this information is available for checking in reputable publications and online.


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## TimoS (May 30, 2006)

Tripitaka of AA said:
			
		

> "Karate" has a different origin altogether



I wouldn't say totally different, as e.g. the first book by Gichin Funakoshi was called "[SIZE=-1]Ryukyu Kempo: Tode". Also, if my memory is correct, what is currently known as Ryute Karate was originally known as Ryukyu kempo. So there seems to be some sort of connection between them
[/SIZE]


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

monkey said:


> The 12 monks & all their skill even wepons of the Chaun fa or china hand.Some called it 18 lohan or Buduh palm,but they each had wepons like the Tomo cane-the tong fa was longer by 6" & the chain whips & staffs.I dont know exactly what temple or the total of wepon skills but it was on A.& E, doc with George Taki narration.The Okinawans changed the name from Chaun fa or china hand to karate do or empty hand way.


 

Chuan fa means fist way. that is what it means. so it is like saying boxing effectivly, and so most of the chinese systems of martial arts can be called chuan fa. 
chuan fa is what kusanku was a practioner of, and he was an instructor of sakagawa's. I would say that is the direct link that can be seen between chuan fa and karate is that link and other practioners of "chuan fa" who influinced some of the great masters of karate.
weapons actualy predate the empty hand practice on okinawa, and I would say in most places. the emphisis on unarmed combat came about when first the king of Okinawa banned the possession and use of any weapon, and latter the satsuma clan who invaded Okinawa continued that ban to the point that the only knife in the villige, as I understand it, was chained to a post in the middle of the village. punishment for that knife going missing was also as i understand it draconian.


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## chinto (Jun 21, 2007)

monkey said:


> True Wally Jay- Bernie Lau & Mike Irabela are all Danzan ryu jujitsu.I do have that old film & restored it for Professor Jay, as it had a tint to it & I put to b/w.He sent a signed photo & big thanks.(A.& E. may not have all facts) but the Chuan fa never ment kenpo.If any thing China Hand>Im not sure on dialect as there are over 3000 but I do Know its not Kempo or japanese.Dojosai.


 

Chuan Fa means "Fist Way" as I understand it.


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