# Sparring?



## Superman (Mar 1, 2004)

I was just wondering how often you spar?  Also I know how it is different for each person but how long does it take for the average person to start sparring? Lastly what kind of protective gear do you use?
Thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 2, 2004)

Superman said:
			
		

> I was just wondering how often you spar? Also I know how it is different for each person but how long does it take for the average person to start sparring? Lastly what kind of protective gear do you use?
> Thanks


Superman,

Welcome to Martial Talk. Thank You for posting your questions here. If you have any technical questions post them in the support forum or ask a staff member.

:asian:


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2004)

Superman said:
			
		

> I was just wondering how often you spar?  Also I know how it is different for each person but how long does it take for the average person to start sparring? Lastly what kind of protective gear do you use?
> Thanks



Are you talking about stick sparring here, or more along the lines of karate type sparring??  I'm gonna assume, seeing as how this is a Modern Arnis thread, that you're talking about stick sparring.  IMO, I think that, just like anything, the new student should have a good understanding of the basics FIRST, before any type of sparring is done.  They are gonna have a hard enough time learning the basics, without having to worry about having someone swing a stick full force at them.

Ok...to answer your question.  For the stick sparring, we use a padded stick, a helmet and a glove.  It definately opens your mind as to whats gonna work and what isnt!!!

Mike


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 3, 2004)

Superman said:
			
		

> I was just wondering how often you spar?  Also I know how it is different for each person but how long does it take for the average person to start sparring? Lastly what kind of protective gear do you use?
> Thanks



It depends who you ask. Generally while Prof Presas was alive it wasn't promoted very much even though compatition rules were listed in his pink book. I was one of a very small group in North America of Modern Arnis players that would actually spar outside of prearranged drills. We at the WMAA make it *MANDITIORY* for members to free stick spar during Black Belt testing.


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## arnisandyz (Mar 3, 2004)

how often you spar? 
We used to spar every other week, but haven't done it in a while. Need to get back to it!

how long does it take for the average person to start sparring?
1 year  (although some start earlier or later as you mentioned)

what kind of protective gear do you use?
controlled sparring light contact arms and legs only = padded stick no gear or
free sparring light rattan stick (the ones nobody wants when you get a new shipment!),  street hocky gloves, street hocky goalie helmet, cup, elbow and knee pads optional


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 3, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> It depends who you ask. Generally while Prof Presas was alive it wasn't promoted very much even though compatition rules were listed in his pink book. I was one of a very small group in North America of Modern Arnis players that would actually spar outside of prearranged drills. We at the WMAA make it *MANDITIORY* for members to free stick spar during Black Belt testing.



It's MANDATORY in my training group as well, but we don't use full armor... just the cane, headgear and some wrist guards (other gear is optional)... no groin shots and no intentional targeting of the knees. The time limit varies, as does the number of opponents. A stick-hickey is a great motivational tool. Refusal to fight is grounds for dismissal, barring any physical imparements of course.  

Tim Kashino
_______________________
"Be, Know, Do"


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## Superman (Mar 3, 2004)

MJS - I am talking about stick sparring
But also do you guys ever spar empty hand or with other weapons? 
One last question, do you guys point spar or normal sparring (like a boxer would do)? 
thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 3, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> It's MANDATORY in my training group as well, but we don't use full armor... just the cane, headgear and some wrist guards (other gear is optional)... no groin shots and no intentional targeting of the knees. The time limit varies, as does the number of opponents. A stick-hickey is a great motivational tool. Refusal to fight is grounds for dismissal, barring any physical imparements of course.
> 
> Tim Kashino
> _______________________
> "Be, Know, Do"


So Tim K,

If I was to train with you, us sparring would not be a challenge then 

I had to say it before anyone else did. You did leave yourself open 


Seriously though, I think sparring is wonderful, and as a good welt or red swelling is good for the ego. As is a 72 year old man who can touch you at will . Although my work does nto understand when I come in with a bruise or welt 

:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 3, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> It's MANDATORY in my training group as well, but we don't use full armor... just the cane, headgear and some wrist guards (other gear is optional)... no groin shots and no intentional targeting of the knees. The time limit varies, as does the number of opponents. A stick-hickey is a great motivational tool. Refusal to fight is grounds for dismissal, barring any physical imparements of course.
> 
> Tim Kashino
> _______________________
> "Be, Know, Do"




We use a padded stick and helmets. Sound a little weak until you see the 3 hockey helmets I broke with my overhand shot!
 :asian:


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 3, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> So Tim K,
> 
> If I was to train with you, us sparring would not be a challenge then
> 
> ...



Riiiiiight; I guess I did leave myself open, Rich. You sure are a fart smeller... I mean a smart feller 

To answer you question... no,  it's a necessary part of the training regimen, particularly for the advanced guys.  The "no refusal rule" is symbolic of facing down adversity and not giving up.  Afterward we're all buds. We pop some tops, and eat some of the local delicacies. I failed to mention that losing one's temper is frowned upon. It's not an ego contest. It's training. You'll fight the way you train and if you loose your cool in training, you'll loose it when it really counts. That's a bad thing on a lot of levels.

Tim Kashino
_______________
"Be, Know, Do"


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 3, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> We use a padded stick and helmets. Sound a little weak until you see the 3 hockey helmets I broke with my overhand shot!
> :asian:



Was that with the padded stick or with a real cane? 

How do you guys feel about lacrosse gear vice the WEKAF armor? 

Tim Kashino
______________
"Be, Know, Do"


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2004)

Renegade said:
			
		

> We use a padded stick and helmets. Sound a little weak until you see the 3 hockey helmets I broke with my overhand shot!
> :asian:



Huh!!!!!  I've seen the Renegade move...... Man! I don't want my helmet busted!!  My head lives under there!!!!   sheesh

 :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 3, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Riiiiiight; I guess I did leave myself open, Rich. You sure are a fart smeller... I mean a smart feller
> 
> To answer you question... no, it's a necessary part of the training regimen, particularly for the advanced guys. The "no refusal rule" is symbolic of facing down adversity and not giving up. Afterward we're all buds. We pop some tops, and eat some of the local delicacies. I failed to mention that losing one's temper is frowned upon. It's not an ego contest. It's training. You'll fight the way you train and if you loose your cool in training, you'll loose it when it really counts. That's a bad thing on a lot of levels.
> 
> ...


Tim K,

So you are saying, I have to fly over to Italy and drink beers and eat food and become a Bud before we can spar .

Next time we meet, we can go out for lunch or other meal 

Oh and excuse you because I did not know you Farted 

Enjoy your work and stay safe.
:asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 3, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Was that with the padded stick or with a real cane?



pvc tube, foam insulation and duct tape.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 3, 2004)

Superman said:
			
		

> MJS - I am talking about stick sparring
> But also do you guys ever spar empty hand or with other weapons?
> One last question, do you guys point spar or normal sparring (like a boxer would do)?
> thanks




Yes. I do both.


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## OULobo (Mar 4, 2004)

We stick spar twice a week for just a few rounds after the main class. The mentality being that a real fight wouldn't last long anyway. Unfortunately we don't do much empty hand or grappling. I go to a different school for that. 

We've been using LaCrosse gloves for a while now and I love'em. They are a little lighter and more flexible than a hockey glove, but they still supply sufficient protection. The helmets leave too much of an opening for the eyes. I haven't found head gear I feel really comfortable with. The best I can come up with is a hard shell with a face cage and a pair of raquetball gogs under. One other thing many people here have been using is instep/shin pads. One or two downward shots to the instep makes you tink twice about no protection there. 

I'm not sure how I feel about the chanllange issue, but to each his own.


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

There are great plastic face shields and 1/2 plastic and 1/2 metal cage hockey helmets that might work for you too.  My main concern during sparring, with or without protective gear, is the incidental or intentional throat shot.


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## OULobo (Mar 4, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> There are great plastic face shields and 1/2 plastic and 1/2 metal cage hockey helmets that might work for you too.  My main concern during sparring, with or without protective gear, is the incidental or intentional throat shot.



I'll definitly check these out. Most of our system is large blade based and even with sticks we tend to train like they were barong or large kris More stabs than just stick sparring. My biggest concern is a stab to the eyes.


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

The 1/2 and 1/2 is good because it is less likely to fog up, but it it does there are commercial sprays and home remedies that can help with that.  

In competetive fencing, they test the gauge and weave of fencing masks by using a blade tip and trying to force it through the grill.  You might want to bring the tip or part of a sample blade (whole thing might raise some eyebrows, but that might be fun too) and test the masks in the store.  Try gear trading stores (Play it Again Sports type that buy and trade used gear) to reduce the cost issue.  I find the service at these stores vs. department stores is more friendly to 'alternate' gear uses as well.

Paul M.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 4, 2004)

http://www.kuntao.de/englisch/kampf2.html

Try this German site.


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

Good helmets for empty hand stuff, but I would be concerned about the lack of overhead protection for weapon strikes.  The visor designs are really nice though.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Mar 4, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Good helmets for empty hand stuff, but I would be concerned about the lack of overhead protection for weapon strikes.  The visor designs are really nice though.



Look threw the rest of the sight, they have extra parts for the neck and top of the head.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

Thanks for the link.

But i was wondering has anyone here used one of these types of helmets and if so what was it like with a head shot from the first and / or the leg ?

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> http://www.kuntao.de/englisch/kampf2.html
> 
> Try this German site.


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

I like what I see, but I would still stick with the hockey/lacross equiptment

Easier to pick up.  Similar safety requirements.  I might pick up the throat guard, if I was using heavier sticks or real rattan.


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## Rocky (Mar 4, 2004)

I recommend starting with Hockey helmits, and knee and elbow pads, and always always a live stick, padded sticks just make for bad habits.

 Being one of maybe three hard core full contact fighter GM Presas produced, the others being Mike Morton, who swithch to Pekiti Tersia, and Bowden Sween who also went Pekiti, I use to rep Modern Arnis back in the 80's aginst some of the Pekiti, and Serrada ( Mostly Jimmy Taccosa's ) people. These matchers were mostly very light pading to the knee's and elbows, and a Fencing mask, made popular by Erwin Balarta and Tom Bisio, two of the best ever full contact fighters. I fought mostly with the EMU Pekiti clan that was kind of a hap hazard group, after their instructor and a truelly awesom fighter Erwin Ballarta had left for Texas, took a lot of crap for being a Modern Arnis guy which made me the black shhep of the group. Jim Birchfield and Itried for years to get the Modern Arnis guys involved but nobdy wanted to step up, Jim ending up leaving for Pekiti, and then Serrada. What ever you choose, just take it in small progressive steps, you don't have to be a tough guy, no matter how hard you sparr it still isn't real!! So don't kill your self trying. just have fun as Remy use to say.

Rocky


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## loki09789 (Mar 5, 2004)

"no matter how hard you sparr it still isn't real!! So don't kill your self trying. just have fun as Remy use to say."

Amen Rocky!  Long time no read... hope all is well.

I think too that with the self defense focus, too much emphasis in sparring might change a student's use of the stick in FMA training from a symbollic tool or translatable metaphor to "THE" tool of the trade.  I think hard training, hard stick sparring and light/no padding is essential.  But, if the goal is general self defense there are more directly applicable scenario types of training that would combine full contact/near full contact reality with other SD skills.  Sparring, if over emphasized, might actually detract from SD skills.


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## loki09789 (Mar 5, 2004)

The timing is amazing!  I took a wicked high stick last night at my Hockey game.  This really bad, undisciplined player didn't like how I was defending my goalie while she was camped out looking for a shot to tip in.  She whirled around and layed the equivelant of a #2 angle strike on my temple region with both hands on the stick.  I was laughing because I was thinking about this thread.  Also because somehow in all that, I got a slashing penalty as a mutual penalty with her high sticking.  The officials suck in my league and a lot of cheap stuff gets through - but they also tend to 'protect' the female players, thus my penalty.  I know I didn't slash her.  Regs/rules are only as good as they are enforced.

I guess my point is that this head shot reaffirmed how Hockey helmets are so over qualified for stick sparring because they are designed to save your brainpan when you fall from exhaustion and slam your head against the boards at 20 plus miles an hour, or even when someone is 'helping' you slam your head into the boards....

Add the faceshield of your choice and you have it all covered... bad pun.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 5, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The timing is amazing! I took a wicked high stick last night at my Hockey game. This really bad, undisciplined player didn't like how I was defending my goalie while she was camped out looking for a shot to tip in. She whirled around and layed the equivelant of a #2 angle strike on my temple region with both hands on the stick. I was laughing because I was thinking about this thread. Also because somehow in all that, I got a slashing penalty as a mutual penalty with her high sticking. The officials suck in my league and a lot of cheap stuff gets through - but they also tend to 'protect' the female players, thus my penalty. I know I didn't slash her. Regs/rules are only as good as they are enforced.
> 
> I guess my point is that this head shot reaffirmed how Hockey helmets are so over qualified for stick sparring because they are designed to save your brainpan when you fall from exhaustion and slam your head against the boards at 20 plus miles an hour, or even when someone is 'helping' you slam your head into the boards....
> 
> Add the faceshield of your choice and you have it all covered... bad pun.


I think you got the penalty for Laughing not slashing  .


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## loki09789 (Mar 6, 2004)

Oh, I thought they said slashing when they really said SLAUGHING!


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## Rocky (Mar 6, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> "no matter how hard you sparr it still isn't real!! So don't kill your self trying. just have fun as Remy use to say."
> 
> Amen Rocky!  Long time no read... hope all is well.
> 
> I think too that with the self defense focus, too much emphasis in sparring might change a student's use of the stick in FMA training from a symbollic tool or translatable metaphor to "THE" tool of the trade.  I think hard training, hard stick sparring and light/no padding is essential.  But, if the goal is general self defense there are more directly applicable scenario types of training that would combine full contact/near full contact reality with other SD skills.  Sparring, if over emphasized, might actually detract from SD skills.



Hey Paul, yea its been a while, I kind of float in and out of these digest, it seems like a lot of the same stuff over and over, not to say its a bad thing, I realize that new people are always starting, and their for going to ask or post the same statements that were posted 10 years ago on another forum, sos I figurelet someone else chime in. Anyways I also have been in the process of developing a new candle pouring facility for my wifes company, Royal Candle Company. Plus we now have 3 kids, my wife want 2 to 3 more, and man it just doesn't seem like enough time. I also rolled my Mustange 3 times ( what a bummer) :idunno:   last fall and am in the process of building a new hotrod, a 1969 VW Bug convertable, with a 300hp Porche 911 motor all tricked out droped 3 in. complete with the Rolls Royce front end, hot Pink paint job, with pink and white fuzzy in terrior with the little dingle balls around the windows, its going to be called " The Luv Ma'Cheen" I got the idea from the movie born in East LA. So with all that and running my business, all I do is private lesson for people looking to teach CDM or a few Balintawak people that Iam getting reading to go train with GM Buot.
 It seems like life goes by faster and faster, I was lucky to race my car 5 or 6 times last summer, and my poker playing is almost zelch!, my two vises that my wife lets me have


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## Rocky (Mar 6, 2004)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Hey Paul, yea its been a while, I kind of float in and out of these digest, it seems like a lot of the same stuff over and over, not to say its a bad thing, I realize that new people are always starting, and their for going to ask or post the same statements that were posted 10 years ago on another forum, sos I figurelet someone else chime in. Anyways I also have been in the process of developing a new candle pouring facility for my wifes company, Royal Candle Company. Plus we now have 3 kids, my wife want 2 to 3 more, and man it just doesn't seem like enough time. I also rolled my Mustange 3 times ( what a bummer) :idunno:   last fall and am in the process of building a new hotrod, a 1969 VW Bug convertable, with a 300hp Porche 911 motor all tricked out droped 3 in. complete with the Rolls Royce front end, hot Pink paint job, with pink and white fuzzy in terrior with the little dingle balls around the windows, its going to be called " The Luv Ma'Cheen" I got the idea from the movie born in East LA. So with all that and running my business, all I do is private lesson for people looking to teach CDM or a few Balintawak people that Iam getting reading to go train with GM Buot.
> It seems like life goes by faster and faster, I was lucky to race my car 5 or 6 times last summer, and my poker playing is almost zelch!, my two vises that my wife lets me have



Man were there enough typos in that post??


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## bart (Mar 6, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Was that with the padded stick or with a real cane?
> 
> How do you guys feel about lacrosse gear vice the WEKAF armor?
> 
> ...




I've tried hockey, lacrosse, and kendo headgear as well, and I really prefer the Wekaf helmet. The ring lets you know when you've been hit and it takes a beating pretty well. I've got one helmet that is now the class helmet and it's been around for 5+ years. No cracks yet.

I think that any kind of stick sparring is good whether padded stick or live stick. The only thing I really raise issue with is the pool noodle, that foam cylinder that kids play with in the pool. I've seen some sparring with that and I don't think you can get a good lesson with that. I agree with whoever said the thing about the "stick hickey". It really does teach you when you're overextending or have a naked spot.


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