# Jujitsu - Judo  - ?



## GouRonin (Oct 4, 2001)

Just curious. It's well known that Judo is a dirivitive of Jujitsu. The other day someone told me that Sambo is a dirivitive of Jujitsu/Judo as well, except done by Russians. Then I was told that brazillian JJ is a dirivitive of the Jujitsu/Judo chain too but by South Americans.

Any ideas? Thoughts?


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 4, 2001)

I'm really not sure about Sambo, since I'm not very familiar with it, but it's entirely possible.  Brazilian 'jiu-jitsu' (their spelling, not mine) *is* derived from Japanese jujutsu, despite what some BJJ practitioners claim.

Ran into one 'jiu jitsu' fella who was claiming that ALL martial arts (kung fu, karate, etc) stemmed from 'jiu jitsu'.  I didn't have the heart to tell him how wrong he was.  Actually, it's been my experience that someone as zealous as he was in his beliefs about his system is usually very close-minded to the facts, no matter how much evidence you can provide them.  Unfortunate, but it happens.  I tend to not waste my time with them these days.

Once again, it's easy to ferret out the people who don't know from those who do.

"He who knows not and knows that he knows not, he is simple.  Teach him.

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool.  Shun him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows, he is asleep.  Awaken him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows, he is wise.  Follow him."

Can't remember where I got this from.  I'm pretty sure it was an Inosanto JKD book.  Go fig.   

Cthulhu


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 5, 2001)

The arts are pretty old. Nothing is ever really new. It's all a matter of documentation. The Chinese have a lot of recorded history that survived.

But I have heard people talk about arts originating from India and travelling over to China. But who knows? I knew of one guy telling everyone that it was African in origin and yet another espousing Russia!

Well, I don't think we'll ever know. Until these guys start to record and standordize these things they come and go as time passes.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 8, 2001)

Some systems do keep accurate records.  Even though some Japanese systems (particularly ninjutsu) claim to be up to 2,000 years old, they have no verifiable documentation to back their claim.  The system recognized by the Japanese government as the oldest Japanese system of martial arts is the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which has documented proof of its existence and founding in the mid-fifteenth century.

Wait a second...this doesn't have anything to do with Sambo or jujutsu.  Sheesh.

Cthulhu


----------



## Kyle (Oct 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *...Brazilian 'jiu-jitsu' (their spelling, not mine) is derived from Japanese jujutsu, despite what some BJJ practitioners claim.
> *



Actually, BJJ is derived from Judo, not jujitsu.

    - Kyle


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 18, 2001)

Now this is something I have heard as well but have been unable to get any verification on. My Judo instructor said this as well. Is it just that BJJ has taken Judo groundwork and gone to exclusive use of it and tweaked it? Or is there more to the story than that? I'm really kinda curious.


----------



## Kyle (Oct 18, 2001)

On my website I have an FAQ that discusses this topic.  Check it out, I'm interested in what ya think.

    - Kyle


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 19, 2001)

Good answers.

I had the chance to work with Rich beaupit once. But just a seminar.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 7, 2001)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Just curious. It's well known that Judo is a dirivitive of Jujitsu. The other day someone told me that Sambo is a dirivitive of Jujitsu/Judo as well, except done by Russians. Then I was told that brazillian JJ is a dirivitive of the Jujitsu/Judo chain too but by South Americans.
> *



I believe that both these statements are correct. Sambo as such is less than 100 years old, I believe--someone combined judo with native Russiam wrestling in the early 20th century into a sport/self-defense system and called it Sambo. (This is from memory but I am confident that the creation of Sambo is well-documented and the name of the creator could be found.) Brazilian ju-jitsu is essentially the Gracies' modification of judo based on their explorations of the art.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 18, 2001)

I stumbled across a few links concerning the (relatively recent) origins of sambo including its predecessor Sam:
http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/sambo.html

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/sambo.html

From the last link:
Since 1920s, Spiridonov's system "Sam" became to spread among USSR policemen and borderguards. At 1928 year his students won a match against german's judo wrestlers (2:1). 

Another famous person of that time - Vasilii Sergeevich Oshchepkov. He was born on Sakhalin island, at that time - japanese land. He studied judo in Kodokan-judo, up to 2nd dan. At 1920s he worked in Vladivostok and in China. Later, after a short period of working in Novosibirsk, Oshchepkov came to capital, and was successful in partial pushing of Spiridonov's school. On the base of judo he developed new system of hand-to-hand combat for army. He called this system "free-style wrestling". 

Ochscepkov's system was for fighter, Spiridonov's system - for saboteur. Oshchepkov didn't agreed to keep silence about oriental origin of his system. As a result, he was arrested as "japanese spy" and immediately killed in prison. His school kept existence and became a base of modern sambo (SAMBO is "SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya" - "Self-defence without weapon"). New heads of school (Kharlampiev, quickly named as "creator of sambo", and others) made great efforts for deleting all similarities between sambo and oriental martial arts. Gradually the best martial art of soviet time became not the best sport competition art...


----------



## Chiduce (Feb 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kyle _
> *
> 
> Actually, BJJ is derived from Judo, not jujitsu.
> ...


 Actually Judo is Jujutsu! Yawara no Michi or the "gentle way" was the spiritual way of behavior that was supposed to be the way of life for the Jujutsuka practitioner. " Judo was not originally a martial art, but rather the philosophy by which a jujutsu master should live! Master Kano and other teachers used the expression with their students; " Do  Judo/or do your jujutsu techniques with Judo", "Do the yielding skill the gentle way"! Judo was the philosophy and Jujutsu was the philosophy's application or "technical art"! The killing techniques etc, were just deleted for competition purposes! The Kodokan was formed to return Combat Judo to it's rightful place in martial arts history! This history is the Philosophy Behind The Fatal Devastating Technical Applications Of Jujutsu!  Source; "Combat Judo-The Other Side Of The Art"; Soke William Durbin, Kiyojute Ryu Kempo Bugei: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## old_sempai (Apr 4, 2002)

:asian:

The following info is from memory, but I can supply more detail if necessary.  Count Komo, from Japan visited Brazil in the early years of the 20th century, and as a young man had studied the art of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu either directly under Takeda Sokaku or one of his leading students.  During his stay in Brazil he became acquainted with Helio Gracie's father and was assisted by him in helping Japanese immigrants become settled into the country.  In gratitude for the Gracie help Count Komo taught Jujutsu to the children, Carlos and Helio.  They refined the techniques to their own style and from this came the art of Gracie Jujutsu.

This information was provided to me directly by Sensei Goldberg, the first American to ever recieve the rank of Shodan in the art of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

With regard to Kano Jigoro and Judo origins I offer the following:

He was born in the Province of Hyogo [Kobe].  As a young man both he and Takeda Sokaku were students of Saigo Chikamasa.  Kano Jigoro later studied Seki Guchi Ryu Jujutsu as well as Jujutsu of the Tenshin [Tenjin] Shinyo school under Fukuda Hachinosuke.  After the death of Fukuda Hachinosuke Kano studied Kito Jujitsu under Iso Nasachi and Iikudo Tsunetoshi which he later included in his curriculum for Judo and is known as as Koshiki Kata [an ancient style Judo that uses stiff, ponderous movements simulating the wearing of armor].  In feudal times Tenshin Shin yo Ryu Jujutsu was practiced mainly by "Ashigari" who were the lowest ranking foot soldiers and by "Chugen" a sort of work man to the Samurai.  This art relied more on the individual having strong hips and a powerful body rather than skill and finesse, and was not considered as a match for methods of combat used by the Samurai.  A fact that is supported by modern Judo since it places great emphasis on the use of strength and muscle.

In 1882, Kano created Judo and founded the Kodokan school. In 1886, his leading student Saigo Shido defeated the Head Instructor of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police who later died as a result of injuries suffered during the contest.  Some feel that the death of this Instructor caused Saigo Shido to resign from this new Art to permit Kano Jigoro to save face.  Whhen Judo and the Kodokan were created Kano claimed this Martial Art was superior to all others and invited Masters of all other systems to defeat his leading student, Saigo Shido.  

Saigo Shido, the illegimate son of Saigo Tanomo [Minamoto Saigo Chikamasa who later adopted him], was a skilled Master in the Arts of Daito Aikijujutsu and would have been Tanomo Saigo successor had he not been convinced by Dr. Kano to promote the new art of Judo.  Most Masters that accepted Dr. Kanos challenge was not aware of the Daito Aikijujutsu skills of his leading student and often only learned of Saigos skills after the match was completed.  Therefore, rather than lose face or break with tradition these Masters would say nothing and as word spread many other Masters would not accept the challenge at all.  Those Masters that accepted had to contend with the Daito Ryu Aikijutsu skills of Saigo Shido.  Dr. Kanos  death in 1938 has always been viewed with suspicion.


----------



## darkdragoon (Apr 23, 2002)

Ahem, Count Koma had also studied judo under Kano according to the Gracies.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 12, 2006)

GouRonin said:
			
		

> Just curious. It's well known that Judo is a dirivitive of Jujitsu. The other day someone told me that Sambo is a dirivitive of Jujitsu/Judo as well, except done by Russians. Then I was told that brazillian JJ is a dirivitive of the Jujitsu/Judo chain too but by South Americans.
> 
> Any ideas? Thoughts?


 
Rather difficult to divide things  into categories as such back then. Before world war II, judo WAS jujutsu. Kodokan Judo was "the official jujutsu of the japanese government". So when students of Maeda (conte Koma), told us that they practice "jiu jitsu" they are telling the truth, because that's what Maeda sensei told them about the art he taught them. Sambo, on the other hand, was not intended to be Russian version of Judo/Jujutsu, but rather, as a Russian martial art with some structural influence from Jujutsu. But yes, it received plenty of influence from Judo/jujutsu

It was only AFTER the WWII and the olympic Judo became famous, that the dividing lines between new Judo (sport Judo) and old Judo (the pre WWII Judo which are indistinguishable from jujutsu) becomes more clear.

Check out Mr. Ellis Amdur's comments here

http://www.geocities.com/gbi_club/ellis_about_terminologies_2.html

for some perspectives regarding this controversial topics!


----------



## MMAfighter (Mar 23, 2006)

from what i understand it's 
                        Jiujitsu
                           |
                        Judo
                          /\
                      BJJ sambo


----------

