# snake creeps down



## theneuhauser (Jun 2, 2002)

as yang style taiji is one of the least familiar to me, im curious about some of its applications (martial and otherwise).
specifically, what are "snake creeps down" and "under sea search needle" designed for?


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## arnisador (Jun 3, 2002)

I see Needle at the Bottom of the Sea as an armbar, myself. I'm not sure I recognize the snake technique by that name.


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## Dronak (Jun 3, 2002)

My memory is a little off right now, but I think Snake Creeps Down and Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg are sometimes combined and called by one name, maybe something like Squat Down and Stand Up on One Leg, instead of the two separate movements.  Maybe they want the transition between them to be more fluid than if you think of them as two separate moves.  *shrug*  I can check my books at home some other time, but I thought the Needle At Sea Bottom was a groin strike.  I think I read that it's a strike up from underneath, so you're supposed to bring your hand down to the ground first and then upward for the strike.  I'd probably have to check though.  The main application of Snake Creeps Down I remember is to avoid a high(ish) kick.  By lowering your body down and maybe somewhat back as well, the kick will go rick over your head and you can follow up by getting up, floating the kick with one hand, and using the other to strike the opponent's groin.


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## Stickgrappler (Jun 5, 2002)

hello,

IIRC i've seen snake creeps down applied like a fireman's carry. my friend has the mark cheng combat tai chi series from unique. it is good in showing the combat applications of the tai chi moves.

HTH


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## theneuhauser (Jun 5, 2002)

yeah, coming underneath a kick seems most obvious, like a wushu application. would be effective against high kicks. i guess im always looking for that elusive "soft style" magic maneuver thats hidden in the movements. 
arnisador, you are defenitely right about "needle"- its a delicate armbar designed to take down your opponent with one or both hands very much like chin na. i was lucky to get to try it yesterday and its very nice. 
dronak, i like your explanation, if you find out where that comes from please let me know.


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## ECYili (Jun 18, 2002)

I've also seen Snake creeps down done as a firemans carry.  Also how about from a hand strike.  Parry the strike and catch with the rear hand dip down underneath the arm and place attackers albow across the back of your neck or shoulders to apply a pseudo arm bar.  As the weight comes forward and front arm extends and eliptical circular action the attacker is thrown over the front leg.  You can always and a hip strike if you like.

I've also seen Needle at Sea Bottom as a wrist lock.  I know it as half moon wrist lock.  Attacker reaches with a cross grab, trap hand against wrist, in a circular fashion to the attackers pinkie finger side bring you fingers up and over attackers wrist(his wrist and elbow should look the the letter S).  This will cause a decent amount of pain but as you extend your hand toward his naval and lower your dantien you'll make him/her see God or whatever religion he/she believes in. 

Granted there is many different breakdowns you can get from these.  But I think these are quick and very easy to use.  But then again I could be full of it.

Dan  :asian:


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## arnisador (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ECYili _
> 
> *I've also seen Needle at Sea Bottom as a wrist lock.  *



That's right! I see it principally as an arm bar on the elbow but now taht you mention it I have seen the wrist lock we call a centerlock in it before.


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## chufeng (Jun 18, 2002)

Hi,

Needle at sea-bottom has many different applications...

First, look at what preceeds it in your form...it may be linked to the previous movement and then could be seen as a finishing technique.

Next, lookat what comes after...it can be used as an entry into the next technique.

Third, get with a partner and have him grab your wrist form the front on each side...then have him grab your shoulder from behind on each side...in each case execute the technique and see what develops.

After all of that, look at attacks from all four directions...

Then, see if the technique maps out any specific acupoints on your own body...

In almost every posture of T'aiQiQuan you can go through this same analysis and find TONS of good and useable techniques.

To simply state that it's this or that on a board is not very helpful...you need to work with someone who understands the movement.

My personal preference for this technique is as a lead in to the next technique (using Yang's short form)...

Snake creeps down classically is seen as a shoulder wheel throw...but there is more if you look.

chufeng


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## CraneSpreadWings (Aug 22, 2002)

ever seen jet li's tai chi master? theres one segment of the last fight scene where jet performs snake creep down as a low evasion, then follows forward and using the kao or bump slams his shoulder area into the groin of his opponent, of course, jet bumps the guy half way across the planet, but that app is definately right there...cool too...

shaoming cheng, who teaches BaGua and Tai chi in Athens, Ga taught us that the creep down could be used as a 'jam' for defending a chin na on the forward wrist...ever play Da Lu???

when performing needle at sea bottom, think chin na as well...

in this beginners opinion, and to concur w/ chufeng, most (if not all) of the postures have loads of applications for controlling, evading, striking, or even just plain getting away...


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