# Carrying and gun and martial arts training



## hemi (Jan 16, 2006)

This might sound a little crazy but I am wondering if anyone feels the way I do. In the last few weeks I have been considering going forward with getting my concealed carry license again. I had one in the past but let it expire. I will be carrying in my vehicle a pistol the type and caliber are not important for this question. 

But in doing a little research on many gun forums I noticed the main opinion of people on those forums is that, to have a weapon is the end all be all for most. What I mean by that is they feel that by having a 9mm, 40cal. 45Acp on their person they are prepared for anything short of all out combat. I have to disagree and think that they are seriously under prepared, and that they are inviting serious repercussions.

It is my opinion that if I am serious about self defense and have decided to arm myself with a pistol that I should also have a means to defend myself with out the use of deadly force. Not all situations will merit the use of deadly force so with that in mind would you agree that it would be responsible to study some form of a martial art as a back up plan, an ability to defend with out killing, and something that goes with you even when your firearm cannot. Like into a Federal Building, liquor store, or a club. 

I ask this here because when I asked a question like this on a gun forum I was laughed at, told martial arts were BS, was told if I had faith in my training I would not want to carry a gun. It was not pretty what people had to say. I just overlooked the comments of the uneducated and thought I would brig this question to a more mature audience, and one that understands the value of martial arts training and it place in self defense.


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## Grenadier (Jan 16, 2006)

Some random thoughts:

1) The way I see it, carrying a gun is like having any other tool at your disposal.  There will be times where you're going to need that tool.   There will be times when a lesser tool would work just fine, and times where using "better" tool would be inappropriate.  Still, it's better to be prepared for the emergency that never arrives, than to be caught unprepared for one that does arrive.  

Martial arts may help you move around a bit better, and make you less of a sitting duck, but you aren't going to be able to take out the bad guy from afar.  

2) There will be times, as you stated, that the better tool might not be available to the law-abiding person.  In those cases, having martial arts training is always going to be better than not having any at all.  

3) Martial arts and firearms actually do go hand in hand somewhat.  If you're a well-disciplined martial artist, then that increased level of awareness and focus is going to help you become a better shooter.  

4) Your goal, regardless of whether you employ martial arts or firearms, is to stop the attacker, and one need not be more lethal than the other, as a greater majority of those shot with handguns do end up surviving.  Last I saw, that figure was up to 80% survival.  You shoot to stop, and not necessarily to kill, but if your adversary happens to die, then so be it.  

Stay alive.  It's better to deal with the consequences while still alive, than to be dead and not have to worry about them (better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6).


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## Flying Crane (Jan 16, 2006)

I absolutely agree with your statements.  A gun is used to kill.  If you shoot someone in self defense and do not kill them, that is an accidental result.  Not all situations (in fact, I suspect very very few) merit that extreme solution.

If you are serious about self defense, then you need to have solutions that are less extreme.  The gun should be the last resort when there are no other options, and your life or the life of a loved one is on the line.  To view a gun as your first line of defense at the first sign of danger is, in my opinion, reckless, immoral, and will get you in a whole lot of legal and criminal trouble.

Just curious: what makes you feel that you need to carry a gun in the first place?  Do you live in a high crime area?  While I grew up hunting and target shooting with rifles, shotguns, and hand guns, I personally have never felt the need to carry a gun, so this kind of thinking is a bit foreign to me.  I do live in a larger city with its share of nasty crime.  My neighborhood is relatively safe, but has its share of seediness and grit, but I still have never seen a need to carry.  I just wonder why people make the choice to carry.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 16, 2006)

I have my conceal carry permit and have carried for years. However, over the past few years since I began training, I have questioned myself about the carry and have often thought about not carrying anymore.  Over the years, I have come to understand that I "really" don't "need" to have a gun on me all the time.  There are times when I would like to have it nearby (travelling, in cities I am unfamiliar with).

I guess training eventually changes a person.  In our training one should not have a favorite weapon, weapons are just tools.  It seems the general consensus with the conceal carry crowd is to "Master" the weapon.  Unfortunately, if they lose that weapon, they are done.  I prefer to think of my pistol as another tool, not unlike the liner lock knife I have in my pocket and I have no preference for either.

Over the last 8 months or so, I have seriously considered not carrying anymore and I probably won't after I get a gun safe.  Nowadays, I am more concerned about whether someone breaks into my house and steals my small arsenal of weapons.  So I think a large fire proof safe is next on my list of big purchases.  After that, I think my pistol will be retired to the safe with the exceptions of trips and situations like that.

I am quite confident, I don't need to carry much anymore.  I will still keep my permit valid though.


All this is a long winded way of saying I agree with you.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 16, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Just curious: what makes you feel that you need to carry a gun in the first place?  Do you live in a high crime area?  While I grew up hunting and target shooting with rifles, shotguns, and hand guns, I personally have never felt the need to carry a gun, so this kind of thinking is a bit foreign to me.


In MY case....  Just because I can!    I hunt, have and shoot rifles, shotguns, handguns, bows, etc.  I never felt that I needed to carry.  However, I firmly believe it is my right and therefore I went through the process so I can.  IMHO, a person doesn't need to have a reason.


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## hemi (Jan 16, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Just curious: what makes you feel that you need to carry a gun in the first place? Do you live in a high crime area? While I grew up hunting and target shooting with rifles, shotguns, and hand guns, I personally have never felt the need to carry a gun, so this kind of thinking is a bit foreign to me. I do live in a larger city with its share of nasty crime. My neighborhood is relatively safe, but has its share of seediness and grit, but I still have never seen a need to carry. I just wonder why people make the choice to carry.


 
To answer that question, no I live in a small town with not much in the way of crime; I work in down town Dallas but have yet to feel like I was in serious danger. I have in the past felt like I might have to throw a punch in self defense when I was approached by some ominous looking homeless people wanting money. I too grew up with more than a few guns some military style and some just standard run of the mill shot guns and rifles. I am no sniper but I would feel comfortable making a 100 yard shot with an SKS. And have an 8 point on the wall from that very shot. 

But the reason I want to have a gun at least with me is more of a recent decision. As I get farther along in my martial arts training I on one had feel very confident I could hold my own against your average person. That said in a situation where I am walking along and a fight breaks out for what ever reason I would be much more incline to use the self defense knowledge I have been taught to this point than to pull out a Glock and put three rounds into some one. But if I was with my family at say Red Lobster and some one walked in and open fired, well then my martial arts training would not be much use. I know it could be said that the odds of something like that ever happing are say 1 in 50, 0000 but if it was that one time than I would want to be prepared.  Part of what martial arts teaches us is to be prepared, I take that to mean for any well most any situation. 

To answer another question or statement about being shot and surviving well in my case I am some what reluctant to carry for the reason that if I was forced to use my weapon. I do mean forced not as a first line of defense but pushed into a situation that I have to use it life or death the person I fire upon will not survive. I am one the type that pushed to that extreme I will fire 3 rounds two in the chest and one to the head. The threat will be eliminated.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 17, 2006)

First off, I think the "gun-people" that dismiss the martial-arts as useless are as shortsighted as the martial-artists who say that guns (or any weapon) are unnecessary for self-defense. 
Empty-hand skills, sprays, edged and impact weapons, and firearms are all part of the self-defense tool-box. You may use one tool more than the others (hopefully you aren't obliged to use any of them very often) but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the others.

For the record, I'm a CCW-holder and carry my firearm the majority of the time (in addition to a few knives, flashlight, etc.).


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 17, 2006)

I think I've mentioned this before.  I've thought about carrying as an augment to my MA training but unfortunately I do not have the time for proper training and more importantly I have several small children and do nt know what I could do to make a gun in my home both safe from kids (ranging from 13 years to 1 year old) as well as conveniently available (and don't have the time and other resources to resolve that)

So in short, I can't currently do it responsibly, so I don't.


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## Drac (Jan 17, 2006)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I have several small children and do nt know what I could do to make a gun in my home both safe from kids (ranging from 13 years to 1 year old)


 
Freep.
        There are gun locks galore out there ranging in prices from cheap to very expensive..Even a pair of handcuffs can render most firearms inoperative and defeat the efforts of small children to unlock them..Just for furture reference.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2006)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> This might sound a little crazy but I am wondering if anyone feels the way I do. In the last few weeks I have been considering going forward with getting my concealed carry license again. I had one in the past but let it expire. I will be carrying in my vehicle a pistol the type and caliber are not important for this question.
> 
> But in doing a little research on many gun forums I noticed the main opinion of people on those forums is that, to have a weapon is the end all be all for most. What I mean by that is they feel that by having a 9mm, 40cal. 45Acp on their person they are prepared for anything short of all out combat. I have to disagree and think that they are seriously under prepared, and that they are inviting serious repercussions.
> 
> ...


 
I think you pretty much summed it up when you said this:




> It is my opinion that if I am serious about self defense and have decided to arm myself with a pistol that I should also have a means to defend myself with out the use of deadly force. Not all situations will merit the use of deadly force so with that in mind would you agree that it would be responsible to study some form of a martial art as a back up plan, an ability to defend with out killing, and something that goes with you even when your firearm cannot. Like into a Federal Building, liquor store, or a club.



The people that say this are the people that will not think twice about pulling their gun, regardless of the situation that is being presented to them at the time. A gun, as you said, is not the end all, be all end to every situation.  I often wonder how many of the average Joes who carry a gun, actually do some training other than what you find at the typical range.  Do they train in low light, against moving targets, mult. targets, unders stress?  Its a big difference.

By all means, if you want to get a permit, go ahead.  Just make sure that you don't neglect your MA training.

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Jan 17, 2006)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> and more importantly I have several small children and do nt know what I could do to make a gun in my home both safe from kids (ranging from 13 years to 1 year old) as well as conveniently available (and don't have the time and other resources to resolve that)


For future reference....

After you have taken a gun safety course, take everyone in the house that is 5 years old and older to the gun range.  Let them shoot the firearm that will be in the house as much as they care to shoot it, everyone needs to do it at least once (first time without hearing protection).  This will quench any curiosity they will have about it at home.  Go to the range ever so often as a reminder.  While at the range teach them how to safely handle the firearm.  Later make a policy that if the kids want to look at it at home, they have to come ask and you WILL let them look at it.  This works.

Whatever you do, don't just buy one and try to hide it at home and tell everyone they cannot touch it.  That is a recipe for disaster.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 17, 2006)

I don't have my CCW, but I intend to get one. I personally wouldn't carry a gun on my person while out in public places, unless given a good reason to. I would carry more than likely other concealable weapons with me (i.e. needles, knives, etc.). I think that a gun should stay home most of the time, since its possible that someone can break into your house, and they may be perpared for a confrontation (a gun). There are other cirrcumstances were this type of thought need not apply, but in general I think this is the best way to view things. (This of course is only my opinion, and everyone should act according to their best judgement, which is probrably the best thing to do)


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## Flying Crane (Jan 17, 2006)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> So in short, I can't currently do it responsibly, so I don't.


 
yup


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## Ceicei (Jan 17, 2006)

I do have a CCW.  I also practice martial arts.  I think the quote below from the thread "Picking up That Gun" said it best:



			
				sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> ....it means you have a thorough understanding of martial skill. A gun is merely another martial tool. It's dynamics are different from a knife of a stick, just as those are different from the empty hand, but they are all part of a martial whole.
> 
> As Bruce Lee was mentioned earlier, i'll point out that he taught there should be no distinction between this way and the next, you should understand where each way fits in.
> 
> One should not view unarmed weapons training as a seperate thing from armed training, they are part of one whole. To try and view it piecemeal is to miss the point. Understand the nature of the given tool.



- Ceicei


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## jcraigking (Jan 17, 2006)

I have a CCL, but never carry. However, to respond to the origional post... 

Many who carry and have no other means of training put themselves in a dangerous situation. Even if they are well trained, whic most are not, you may only use deadly force when absolutely necessary. By resorting to draw a weapon, you commit a misdemeaner (even with the CCL). If you discharge it in proximity to people and hit anything other than you attacker you will be sued and possibly put in jail for endangering other persons - including if no one else is visible and your bullet strikes a building that could contain people. This happens all of the time.

On the flip side, under my state's laws, if you have engaged physically in defending yourself and later present your weapon, you are up a creek. You'll end up in jail for escalating the altercation to a level of deadly force. 

We were told, if you believe you are truly in danger and can not leave the situation, draw first! As soon as you leave the scene, you call 911 and report yourself for presenting a firearm and explain the situation. On more than one occasion the deterred attacker has called 911 and had their potential victom arrested for holding them at gunpoint. by calling 911 you cover your own butt. 

Our CCL instructor covered this very thuroughly, but most do not. My instructor was also a instructor at the Frontsight Institute.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 17, 2006)

jcraigking said:
			
		

> We were told, if you believe you are truly in danger and can not leave the situation, draw first! As soon as you leave the scene, you call 911 and report yourself for presenting a firearm and explain the situation. On more than one occasion the deterred attacker has called 911 and had their potential victom arrested for holding them at gunpoint. by calling 911 you cover your own butt.


 
I think this is a very good point, and holds true also for unarmed self defense.  If you used any physical force to deterr an attacker, especially if the attacker was injured, call 911 and report that you were attacked.  Sometimes the attacker has called first, and claimed he was the victim.


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## hemi (Jan 17, 2006)

jcraigking said:
			
		

> On the flip side, under my state's laws, if you have engaged physically in defending yourself and later present your weapon, you are up a creek. You'll end up in jail for escalating the altercation to a level of deadly force.


 
Thats one reason I am very hesitant to carry a gun with me. The way the law seems to be written if I was jumped and I started to defend my self then, the attacker pulled a knife (escalating the situation to a much more dangerous level) I would be in legal trouble for pulling out my gun. That gives criminals so much leeway and the poor law abiding citizen has very few options in defending them self. 

I would love to attend a few of the Front Sight classes out in Vegas.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 17, 2006)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> Thats one reason I am very hesitant to carry a gun with me. *The way the law seems to be written if I was jumped and I started to defend my self then, the attacker pulled a knife (escalating the situation to a much more dangerous level) I would be in legal trouble for pulling out my gun.* That gives criminals so much leeway and the poor law abiding citizen has very few options in defending them self.
> 
> I would love to attend a few of the Front Sight classes out in Vegas.


I'm a little rusty on TX law, having moved away about 5 years ago.  Could you provide a link to the relevant statute?  I find it extremely hard to believe that you would be "faulted" for drawing a firearm in response to a knife threat.


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## hemi (Jan 17, 2006)

KenpoTex, well let me start with I am not an attorney and have not been to law school. When I said *The way the law seems to be written if I was jumped and I started to defend my self then, the attacker pulled a knife (escalating the situation to a much more dangerous level) I would be in legal trouble for pulling out my gun.*_  _
_I based that statement on comments posted by,  _*jcraigkin**g*_ __By resorting to draw a weapon, you commit a misdemeaner (even with the CCL). _And this line
_ On the flip side, under my state's laws, if you have engaged physically in defending yourself and later present your weapon, you are up a creek. You'll end up in jail for escalating the altercation to a level of deadly force.  _
So I guess I did somewhat jump to the conclusion that Jcraigkin, might be from TX, but I also would think that even if not, most laws pertaining to this would be very similar. I am looking through the Texas Statutes Penal Code looking for more info but they seem to word this stuff so that only an attorney could understand and or find what one was looking for in the pages and pages.


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## evenflow1121 (Jan 17, 2006)

I for one dont see a problem with this, a very good friend of mine who is a State Prosecutor is a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and has a concealed weapon's permit.


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## Lisa (Jan 17, 2006)

Where I live I can't get a CCW and probably never will be able to either, with the way things are looking.  Actually, with the way things are looking soon enough we will not be allowed to have guns of any kind, but I will stop complaining now.

I don't know if I would ever feel the need to carry one, or feel comfortable doing so.  We have had firearms in our home, locked with trigger locks, etc.  

I think part of my "apprehension" is it not being part of my every day life.  I think being exposed to it would probably make it less weird to me.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 17, 2006)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> This might sound a little crazy but I am wondering if anyone feels the way I do. In the last few weeks I have been considering going forward with getting my concealed carry license again. I had one in the past but let it expire. I will be carrying in my vehicle a pistol the type and caliber are not important for this question.
> 
> But in doing a little research on many gun forums I noticed the main opinion of people on those forums is that, to have a weapon is the &#8220;end all be all for most&#8221;. What I mean by that is they feel that by having a 9mm, 40cal. 45Acp on their person they are prepared for anything short of all out combat. I have to disagree and think that they are seriously under prepared, and that they are inviting serious repercussions.
> 
> ...


 Remember, the gun is a tool, a useful and extremely powerful tool, but a tool nonetheless.  Having only one tool in your tool box makes you limited.  If being prepared is your goal, you should train in several areas of armed and unarmed combat.  

Being able to use improvised weapons well, for example, is important.  Being able to throw a decent punch and kick, and grapple, is likewise important.  Understanding how to use a knife is important.  Ultimately, your mind, and the ability to view situations tactically is your key weapon.

As for the handgun, if you carry it, you likely will never need it.....however, the handgun is one of those things that when you need it....you REALLY need it.  If you need a gun, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for one.

As for training, there is a lot of good training around.  If you have a little money, i'd highly recommend Gunsite out in Arizona, they are outstanding at teaching you the art of the pistol.  Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch is excellent as well.


As for children and guns, every person in your house old enough to remotely comprehend should be taught the basic safety rules.  http://www.lightlink.com/critters/gunsafety.htm

Hiding you gun from your child, and never discussing what it is or what it will do, is as dangerous as leaving it on the coffee table.  A child brought up to understand firearms, and their proper role, and knowing that they NEVER deviate from the rules of safety, make for FAR safer homes that 'out of sight, out of mind'. 

As with all things, there is no cure for incompetent ownership.  Incompetent firearms ownership can result in the death of children.  Of course, incompetent swimming pool ownership kills many times more children each year than incompetent gun ownership.  Lets not even mention incompetent vehicle ownership.  Incompetence of all stripes is often fatal.

I did like the suggestion about taking family members out and allowing them to fire the weapon, so that they will see what it is capable of doing, and many will less likely view it as a toy.  I'd limit the amount of firings without hearing protection, though.  I've lost some high and low range hearing over the years, and i'm not sure the effect that would have on the hearing of children and teenagers.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 18, 2006)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> _I based that statement on comments posted by, _*jcraigkin**g*_ __By resorting to draw a weapon, you commit a misdemeaner (even with the CCL). _And this line
> _On the flip side, under my state's laws, if you have engaged physically in defending yourself and later present your weapon, you are up a creek. You'll end up in jail for escalating the altercation to a level of deadly force. _
> So I guess I did somewhat jump to the conclusion that Jcraigkin, might be from TX, but I also would think that even if not, most laws pertaining to this would be very similar. I am looking through the Texas Statutes Penal Code looking for more info but they seem to word this stuff so that only an attorney could understand and or find what one was looking for in the pages and pages.


First of all, I'm not trying to pick on you, I was just curious whether you actually had checked the laws in your state. It's never advisable to take someone else's word as truth when it comes to to topics like use-of-force and self-defense. Especially when their statements (like the two you cited above) are not necessarily accurate.

Here's the applicable Texas statutes:


> § 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) *A *
> *person is justified in using deadly force against another:*
> (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
> other under Section 9.31;
> ...


 As you can see, you have considerable "lee-way" regarding the use of deadly force. Someone pulling a knife on you during an attack would definately qualify as *"use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force"* and as a result, you would be more than justified in using your firearm to stop the threat. As we can see, you are also justified in using deadly force to prevent yourself or someone else from kidnapping, murder, sexual-assault, robbery, etc. One thing worth mentioning: we see in subsection (a)(2) the "Duty to retreat." However in subsection (b) we see that there is no "duty to retreat" when you are in your home, this is also commonly known as "The Castle Doctrine."


Now on to the other quote you cited that mentioned being guilty of a misdemeanor for even drawing your weapon. I didn't take time to track down the Texas statute for this issue so this is more my educated opinion than anything. Most states, mine included, have some sort of law against brandishing or threatening someone with a firearm, however most of them will also have an exception to this rule for someone who is acting in self-defense. In other words, you're not guilty of a misdemeanor for drawing your weapon because you _needed_ it to defend yourself.

Here are the relevant sections of the Texas Penal Code
Self-Defense
Deadly Force in Defense of Person
Defense of Third Person

Have fun reading...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 18, 2006)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> As for children and guns, every person in your house old enough to remotely comprehend should be taught the basic safety rules. http://www.lightlink.com/critters/gunsafety.htm
> 
> Hiding you gun from your child, and never discussing what it is or what it will do, is as dangerous as leaving it on the coffee table. A child brought up to understand firearms, and their proper role, and knowing that they NEVER deviate from the rules of safety, make for FAR safer homes that 'out of sight, out of mind'.
> 
> ...


 
I gotta agree with this completely.  I have often suspected that many of the accidental shootings that happen in homes is due to a fear of the weapon which results in a lack of appropriate training.  Our society tends to want to demonize the weapon, but a little bit of safety training would go a long way.


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## Cujo (Jan 18, 2006)

Just a thought. It has been mentioned several times that a firearm is just a tool and one part of an overall defense system, and I agree completly. I would only add this, if you carry a firearm make sure that you train with a "red" or "blue" gun. Any time you are carrying a firearm, there is at least one gun present at the fight, yours. Also while we all practice break falls and other techniques, you must alter some of your training to include the fact that you are carrying a firearm. ie. If you have ever fallen on your weapon, it's not something that you will want to repeat. Train to fall away from your weapon side whenever possible. Also, you must protect your weapon at all times. Your firearm will do you no good if it is in the hands of your attacker.

Pax
Cujo


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## Sin (Jan 19, 2006)

I don't like guns, but I am going to school to be a police officer so I have to learn how to use them, and learn defence aginst them...I do agree that if you carry a weapon its not going to "fix" every situation...training in unarmed combat is necessary for a well rounded warrior....


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## clfsean (Jan 19, 2006)

Why limit your options for self defense? That's my stand point. I've studied MA since 1981 & had a CCW since 1993 or 94. Only used MA twice in my life & never have looked at my pistol seriously except at the range. Life's been good to me so far, but why limit my choices?


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