# USAT vs MAC or MAC vs USAT?



## d1jinx (Jan 19, 2010)

ok.... so its been said.... now spill.  What is going on? Without crossing someone you know or revealing TMI.... can someone shead a little more light on what is going on.

On a side note.... I always thought that this was a "covert" way for the GMs to retake control of the NGB of TKD.  Using USAT to springboard into the spotlight and takeover.  Conspiracy theory style.

But seriously.... what is the deal.  I have only heard the whispering of rumors.  Is there really something going on?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 19, 2010)

Its times like these I am so glad I train at an independent club with no ties to any organisations. We have no power struggle , no egos etc and best of all I wouldnt even know what a usat , mac etc even means. Geez , I dont even really understand what a kukkiwon (if thats how its spelt) even is.  So , unfortunately , I really cant shed any light as to what is going on.


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## Gorilla (Jan 20, 2010)

USAT is in turmoil...The vultures are starfting to circle...Whoe knows who will gain control but change is on the Horizon...Lots of politics...The vibe was different at the Junior World Team trials a couple of weeks ago


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## UpTheIrons (Jan 20, 2010)

The USAT is in turmoil for several reasons. First, internally it is having big problems from what I understand. The issues that caused the downfall of the USTU and its changeover to USAT have not gone away.

Second, the USAT is aligned with a governing body (Kukkiwon) that is having deep problems, most of them of its own making.  These issues involve deep crises in leadership that will ultimately affect whether or not there even is a Kukkiwon down the road.  If, ultimately, the Kukkiwon falls, the USAT will surely fall as well.

One of the problems the Kukkiwon has is that most of the good instructors left Korea years ago to promote Taekwondo.  With the best ones gone, the worst ones are left to run the show, with few exceptions.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 20, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its times like these I am so glad I train at an independent club with no ties to any organisations. We have no power struggle , no egos etc and best of all I wouldnt even know what a usat , mac etc even means. Geez , I dont even really understand what a kukkiwon (if thats how its spelt) even is. So , unfortunately , I really cant shed any light as to what is going on.


 
You also have no widely accepted standards and practises, and no place for transfer students to feel at home if they relocate.  Depending on circumstances continuation of anything after the school head passes on is doubtful. 

There are advantages to being part of a larger group.  There are tradeoffs.


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## Archtkd (Jan 20, 2010)

UpTheIrons said:


> The USAT is in turmoil for several reasons. First, internally it is having big problems from what I understand. The issues that caused the downfall of the USTU and its changeover to USAT have not gone away.
> 
> Second, the USAT is aligned with a governing body (Kukkiwon) that is having deep problems, most of them of its own making.  These issues involve deep crises in leadership that will ultimately affect whether or not there even is a Kukkiwon down the road.  If, ultimately, the Kukkiwon falls, the USAT will surely fall as well.



Maybe more specific details about the new MAC/USAT struggle might help us. We would also appreciate a sharing of the latest published reports or writings on the matter. 

That said, I seriously doubt the problems USAT is said to be facing have anything to do with the Kukkiwon. USAT has simply failed to do many things that a national governing body for WTF taekwonod should do. That includes cultivating grassroots support from dojangs and clubs across the country. Have you folks noticed the majority of  dojangs operated by the 300+plus MAC members are not actually listed as paying USAT member schools? 

I think USAT's sole focus on elite athletic development -- under one or two coaches, who seem to show no interest beyond their own states and dojangs -- is a symptom of the organization's crisis.


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## d1jinx (Jan 20, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> .....
> I think USAT's sole focus on elite athletic development -- under one or two coaches, who seem to show no interest beyond their own states and dojangs -- is a symptom of the organization's crisis.


 
*Well Put!* 

_"300+plus MAC members are not actually listed as paying USAT member schools"_ *also very interesting.*


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## ATC (Jan 20, 2010)

I thought the MAC was started to help USAT. I thought it was a commission formed with TKD masters to help David Askinas with the growth of sport TKD. Why is it now MAC vs. USAT?

See the link for more http://www.usat-mac.us/about/


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## terryl965 (Jan 20, 2010)

Here is some interesting reading if anybody is up to it. This is one big mess and in between all of this is the poor athletes who are doing everything in there power to kep going knowing that the end is getting nearer once again. Enjoy and looking forward to everybody take on the dramatic stituation that is taking place.

The following letters were sent to members of the Martial Arts Commission:


January 7, 2010

Chairman Joon Pyo Choi and the National Board of Commissioners of the
USA Taekwondo Martial Arts Commission

Re: USAT Concerns Regarding MAC

Dear Chairman Choi and Members of the Board:

Ithas been with a great sadness that I have received numerous troublingemails with attachments over the past few months. It appears as if ourjoint venture is becoming subject to the same types of politics thatplagued USTU. The USAT Martial Arts Commission was formed as a means toshow the taekwondo community in the United States that there was ameaningful place for the pioneers of this great martial art in ourorganization. It was a hand of friendship extended to those foundingfathers of Taekwondo to become active again in USAT.

As you knowa great disconnect had arisen in 2004 and 2005 between many in theKorean-American Taekwondo community and USA Taekwondo. Because of thewrongdoings of the past administration and the resultingdecertification of USTU, some artificial barriers had arisen that wereimpeding the participation of Korean-American Masters and Grandmastersin USA Taekwondo affairs. I recall vividly our meetings in Columbus andKansas City in 2006 when you, I and Grandmaster Hong Kong Kimrecognized the salient issues and brainstormed about a solution. TheUSAT Martial Arts Commission was birthed out of these meetings.

Wehave required your organization to be organized as a non-profitcorporation. I have reviewed and approved your suggested By-Laws asthey have evolved from our original guidelines and practices. It wasour intention that the MAC operate its organization in a truedemocratic fashion pursuant to established rules and protocols. USATaekwondo was not and is not interested in having an affiliateorganization that conducts its business in any other manner. 

Itnow appears that there is a sub-group emerging with the USAT MAC thatwishes to operate outside appropriate boundaries and would exceed themby what I characterize as old school extra-legal methods. Make nomistake, dissent and disagreement are 


absolutely properand expected in a democratically run organization. Fair people willdisagree from time to time and will vie for elected office in anorganization of this nature. The situation described to me and thematerials I have reviewed do not appear to fall under the category offair dissent in this case. The exhibits I have seen may involve thedissemination of false or inaccurate information. This is notacceptable to USA Taekwondo.

USAT will not enter into areciprocal support and revenue sharing agreement or maintain anaffiliation with an organization it cannot trust and whose stability itquestions. 
USAT requests a face-to-face meeting with the eightmembers of the MAC's National Board .Without such a meeting, progresson the agreement is not likely.

Thus I am requesting that youconvene an emergency meeting of the National Board of Commissioners ofthe USAT Martial Arts Commission for the purpose of clarifying thegoals and expectations of your organization from the perspective of notjust yourselves but from the perspective of USA Taekwondo. I suggestthat you schedule this critical meeting sooner rather than later. Ifurther strongly suggest January 30, 2010 at 4 pm, at the USOCheadquarters in Colorado Springs as the date, time and location for themeeting. I will secure meeting space for us here on the USOC campus. 

USOCand USAT officials will address your group and review your legalobligations as an affiliate organization. We would like to see anAgenda that includes the finalization of your organizational by-lawsand the installation/ confirmation of your current Board members. 

Ifthere are indeed those within your organization who cannot work withinappropriate boundaries, we would expect MACs National Board to takeappropriate steps to remove them forthwith from your rolls of members.USAT recommends that the MAC give consideration, should thecircumstances warrant, to the removal of those who have undermined thesuccess of the MAC since July 2009 in order to avoid further negativeand damaging impact from their involvement. Any such actions, ofcourse, are the purview and responsibility of the MAC Board. 

USATfurther recommends that the bylaws that it has considered a part of thebasis of the affiliation agreement with MAC be further refined andfinalized in a fashion that maintains the structure and operation thathas been in place since 2007. 

Please understand that the USATcannot compel the MAC board to meet with it. However, the refusal ofthe request for the face-to-face meeting will be viewed as anindication that MAC does not respect USAT's concerns and, therefore, isnot committed to the relationship that a reciprocal support and revenuesharing agreement would reflect. In sum, if the meeting is rejected,USAT will take that as a sign that MAC's commitment to USAT isfaltering.

In summary, I want to make itperfectly clear that USAT will not venture down the precipitous pathsthat once were the hallmarks of USTU. The purpose of the USAT MAC wasto promote USAT activities and membership, foster the history andtradition of our martial art, honor the pioneers of our past, and growa united taekwondo organization for the Untied States. The creation ofthe organization was not designed to foster personal agendas and powerstruggles. We have worked hard for the past 2 ½ years to build afoundation for future success for both USAT and the MAC. I hope thatthe MACs National Board of Commissioners will do what is necessary toaddress USATs concerns and resume productive efforts to build ahealthy organization to pursue our joint goals.

I await your response.

Sincerely,


David M. Askinas, CEO
USA Taekwondo"


JANUARY 9, 2010

THE USAT MARTIAL ARTS COMMISSION, INC.


NOTICE OF EMERGENCY SPECIAL MEETING
OF
THE NATIONAL BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS


Noticeis hereby given that there will be an emergency special meeting of theNational Board of Commissioners of USAT Martial Arts Commission, Inc.on January 30, 2010, at 4 p.m., in Colorado Springs, Colorado, at theoffices of USAT, Inc., or elsewhere within the complex of the UnitedState Olympic Committee, as may be determined on or prior to the dateof the meeting.

The meeting shall be a closed meeting. 


Joon P. Choi, Chairman,
National Board of Commissioners,
USAT Martial Arts Commission, Inc.

AGENDA

EMERGENCY SPECIAL MEETING
USAT MARTIAL ARTS COMMISSION, INC.
JANUARY 30, 2010


1. Call to Order

2. Roll Call

3. Remarks
a. Mr. Askinas
b. USOC representative

3.Confirmation and clarification of the composition of the Board andother decisions (e.g., appointments to council an other positions,byalws and guidelines, site selection for 2010 national event), fromthe meetings of July 3-4, 2009, Austin, Texas, and November 20-21,2009, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida 

4. Byung Kon Cho  accountability and consequences for in appropriate actions

5. Ju Young Jang  accountability and consequences for in appropriate action

6. Bylaws  finalize; review and amendment process

8. Adjournment


No :109
From : USAT MAC
To: USAT CEO David M. Askinas
Date: 01/10/2010
Dear Mr. Askinas,
Althoughyour letter of January 7th, 2010 was addressed to the MAC chairman, Ifeel it is appropriate for me to directly respond, as the President ofthe MAC. First of all, I appreciate your concern and I hold youropinion regarding the improvement of the USAT and its affiliateorganizations in high regard.
While I understand the necessity tooperate the MAC in a systematic way to move the organization forward,your letter to the Chairman is a concern. You have apparently receivedsome communication from our Chairman relating to internal disputesamong certain commissioners. As an organization, we are working towardresolving these disputes by reinforcing an appropriate chain of commandand it is unfortunate that you were burdened with these internalmatters without my permission. I firmly believe that MAC can correctits course.
As MAC president, I welcome your advice and counselregarding creative solutions to the challenges we face and I know allMAC commissioners value the affiliate status with the SAT very highly.I do, however take issue with your suggestion that the eight executiveboard members come to Colorado Springs for a face-to-face meeting onJanuary 30th. Our executive members, as you know, are all volunteersand we must be sensitive to the financial and other demands we place onthem in the service of the MAC. An impromptu trip to Colorado Springson the heels of our national Meeting in November in Florida and twoweeks before the February 10th Las Vegas U.S. Open, seems anunnecessary imposition. I am reasonably confident that we could arrangethe meeting you requested during the U.S. Open tournament weekend inFebruary, as all of the necessary parties will be in attendance anyway.Please understand that I need to look out for the best interest of ourcommissioners and respect their volunteer contribution to the successof the MAC. I will notify the executive members and work with youroffice to schedule a meeting during the U.S. Open. If you have anyquestions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me. 
Yours truly,

Grandmaster Hong Kong Kim
President USAT Martial Arts Commission

January 11, 2010

Members of the National Board of Commissioners,
USAT Martial Arts Commission, Inc.

Re: USATs Expression of Concern Regarding MAC


Dear Board Members:

Bynow all of us should have received and had a chance to review theletter from David Askinas, CEO of USAT, expressing concerns about theMAC and the strength of its commitment to working with USAT in anacceptable manner. The concerns expressed are serious and should not betaken lightly. If not properly addressed and satisfied, USAT will notenter into the reciprocal support and revenue sharing agreement we havebeen pursuing for so long and MAC will lose its affiliate organizationstatus. 

Mr. Askinas accurately noted that the formation of theMAC was a gesture of peace and accommodation to Korean born masters andTaekwondo pioneers to enable them to again participate with thenational governing body and preserve Taekwondo tradition and history inthe USA. He now questions whether we have the capacity to participateand maintain focus on legitimate goals rather than personal agendas. Ifwe cannot convince him that the MAC does not support a return to thepolitical practices of USTU days, the opportunity extended to us willbe gone.

Mr. Askinas makes it clear that to preserve ouraffiliation status, finalize the reciprocal support and revenue sharingagreement, and reconfirm our commitment to the goals we share withUSAT, the following must occur:


1. Our board must meet with Mr. Askinas in Colorado Springs, Colorado, on January 30, 2010, at 4 p.m. at the USOC complex
2. We must take action to hold accountable those whose actions have threatened and damaged the MAC
3. We must finalize the bylaws that we have been developing and refining
4. We must confirm board membership of the eight members of the board selected at the meeting in Austin, Texas, in July, 2009


As your Chairman, it is my firm belief that MAC is facing a crisis. Weare on the verge of losing everything we have achieved for the MACduring its brief history. We must act quickly to preserve ouropportunity to participate with our national governing body, to insurethe preservation of valuable Taekwondo tradition within ourcurriculums, and to insure that our pioneers will be remembered whenthe story of Taekwondo in the USA is told. Thus, I am calling anemergency special meeting of the National Board of Commissioners forJanuary 30, 2010, in Colorado Springs, as requested by Mr. Askinas. Themeeting notice and agenda are enclosed with this letter.


Very truly yours,


Joon P. Choi, Chairman,
National Board of Commissioners,
USAT Martial Arts Commission

David Askinas writes in his letter:

"As you know a great disconnect had arisen in 2004 and 2005 between manyin the Korean-American Taekwondo community and USA Taekwondo. Becauseof the wrongdoings of the past administration and the resultingdecertification of USTU, some artificial barriers had arisen that wereimpeding the participation of Korean-American Masters and Grandmastersin USA Taekwondo affairs. I recall vividly our meetings in Columbus andKansas City in 2006 when you, I and Grandmaster Hong Kong Kimrecognized the salient issues and brainstormed about a solution. TheUSAT Martial Arts Commission was birthed out of these meetings."

Actually an even greater disconnect had arisen, still exist and is worse than ever between USA Taekwondo and many in the non-Korean American Taekwondo community. The mass majority of those who left the USA's National Governing Body of Taekwondo were non-Korean.

And I don not believe that the USAT MAC was born out of any kind of brainstorming. Reading the legal document below tells me that USAT MAC was created by the USOC/USAT to appease the Plaintiff and save the USOC/USAT hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Has that appeasement turned into a monster? Will more lawsuits be filled soon against the USOC/USAT if it takes action against the monster?

From http://www.websupp.org/data/SDOH/2:05-cv-00230-42-SDOH.pdf, you can read the whole document.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO
EASTERN DIVISION
Ohio Taekwondo Association,
Plaintiff,
-V- Case No. 2:05-230
JUDGE SMITH
Magistrate Judge King
United States Olympic Committee, et al.,
Defendants.
OPINION AND ORDER
This matter is before the Court on Defendants Motion to Enforce the Settlement
Agreement (Doc. 35); Plaintiffs Motion for Equitable Relief (Doc. 36); Plaintiffs Motion to
Enforce Judgment (Doc. 39); and Plaintiffs Motion to Strike Filings by Attorney Mel Lute
(Doc. 40). For the reasons that follow, the Court GRANTS Defendants Motion to Enforce the
Settlement Agreement; DENIES Plaintiffs Motion for Equitable Relief; GRANTS Plaintiffs
Motion to Enforce Judgment; and DENIES Plaintiffs Motion to Strike Filings by Attorney Mel
Lute.
I. BACKGROUND
On March 11, 2005, Plaintiff Ohio Taekwondo Association (OTA) filed suit in the
Franklin County Court of Common Pleas. On March 14, 2005, Defendants removed this case to
this Court. On April 20, 2005, this Court issued an Order accepting federal jurisdiction and
ruling against Plaintiffs request for a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction.
Case 2:05-cv-00230-GCS-NMK Document 42 Filed 11/06/2006 Page 1 of 5
-2-
This Courts order directed Plaintiff to exhaust administrative remedies before the United States
Taekwondo Union (USTU) Hearing Panel. On May 18, 2005, Plaintiff filed a motion for
reconsideration. On December 21, 2005, this Court denied Plaintiffs motion for reconsideration.
On March 15, 2006, the parties indicated that they had entered into informal negotiations
between the parties and requested time to allow for negotiations to produce a broad based
settlement. On or about May 24, 2006, the parties signed and executed a Settlement Agreement
resolving all claims between the parties. The Settlement Agreement was signed by the President
and two Vice Presidents of OTA, on behalf of Plaintiff. On June 5, 2006, Defendants filed a
purported settlement to this lawsuit. Then on June 15, 2006, Defendants filed a motion seeking
to enforce the purported settlement. This matter therefore remains pending before this Court and
the USTU Hearing Panel.


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## Archtkd (Jan 20, 2010)

Terry1965. That's great stuff. I didn't realize things have gotten so ugly.


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## Archtkd (Jan 20, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> David Askinas writes in his letter:
> 
> "As you know a great disconnect had arisen in 2004 and 2005 between manyin the Korean-American Taekwondo community and USA Taekwondo. Becauseof the wrongdoings of the past administration and the resultingdecertification of USTU, some artificial barriers had arisen that wereimpeding the participation of Korean-American Masters and Grandmastersin USA Taekwondo affairs. I recall vividly our meetings in Columbus andKansas City in 2006 when you, I and Grandmaster Hong Kong Kimrecognized the salient issues and brainstormed about a solution. TheUSAT Martial Arts Commission was birthed out of these meetings."
> 
> Actually an even greater disconnect had arisen, still exist and is worse than ever between USA Taekwondo and many in the non-Korean American Taekwondo community. The mass majority of those who left the USA's National Governing Body of Taekwondo were non-Korean.


 
Great point!


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## terryl965 (Jan 20, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Terry1965. That's great stuff. I didn't realize things have gotten so ugly.


 

And it will only get uglier over the long haul.


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## Archtkd (Jan 20, 2010)

Who wants to live through that mess again? I was in Ohio during the USTU break up. That's the state where most of the heat came from back then.


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## d1jinx (Jan 20, 2010)

wow terry.... i asked and you provided!

Talk about conspiracy.  You know... like i said earlier, I thought the whole MAC thing was a ploy to regain control.... sounds like USAT is hearing the same thing now.  but on the side of fairness, there will always be a few who are not happy until things fail.  I hope this isnt stemming from those few.


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## UpTheIrons (Jan 20, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> You also have no widely accepted standards and practises, and no place for transfer students to feel at home if they relocate. Depending on circumstances continuation of anything after the school head passes on is doubtful.
> 
> There are advantages to being part of a larger group. There are tradeoffs.


 
I agree. Unless an instructor is exceptional, "independent" generally means as you have described: no real accepted standards aside from whatever the instructor sees fit to include, which is often a mishmosh of various styles. At least with the Kukkiwon I know what I'm getting.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 20, 2010)

UpTheIrons said:


> At least with the Kukkiwon I know what I'm paying through the nose for and maybe still not getting.




fixed that for ya


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> You also have no widely accepted standards and practises, and no place for transfer students to feel at home if they relocate.  Depending on circumstances continuation of anything after the school head passes on is doubtful.
> 
> There are advantages to being part of a larger group.  There are tradeoffs.


Our school is 40 years old , has 4000 students and is nation wide. Our club has its own standards and practices that are of a very high standard and we have the infrastructure within the club that allows for it to continue for years and years. Its just my opinion , but Id rather be at a non-affiliated club anyday.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 20, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> fixed that for ya


I couldnt agree more. I think if you choose an independent school you have to really look into the credentials of those running it as there are some very average ones , but if you can find a good one they are the way to go in my opinion.


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## UpTheIrons (Jan 21, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> fixed that for ya


 
Pretty rude to alter someone's post to reflect what you think it should say. Also says a lot about you Twin Fist.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 21, 2010)

UpTheIrons said:


> One of the problems the Kukkiwon has is that most of the good instructors left Korea years ago to promote Taekwondo. With the best ones gone, the worst ones are left to run the show, with few exceptions.


 

Yes, I agree, it was one thing my Kwan Jang Nim was always upset about.  The Senior Korean Grandmasters in the U.S. ended up being senior in rank to the ones left at the Kukkiwon in Korea.  He felt that the U.S. was in a position to govern TKD, and initially was a large supporter of the USTU.  In fact he was Chairman of the Masters Delegation for the 1988 Olympics and USTU Vice President back in the '90's.  Unfortunately, like most large organizations, greed and politics ruined the ideal goal of the USTU.  

He left the USTU before its downfall, and it seems the USAT has similar problems that the USTU faced.  Ultimately, the USTU and USAT, IMHO, has focused itself on the sport aspect of TKD (which I have no problem with, by the way), and the sport aspect is not something that my association particularly embraces.  My Kwan Jang Nim along with other Korean Grandmasters formed the USTW, to preserve the traditional aspect of TKD in the U.S.  Unfortunately it has had its own share of political problems as well.  I hope that the USAT can correct its internal issues and help to continue to bolster the support of sport TKD and its athletes, as do I hope that the USTW can do the same in respect to the traditional martial art aspect of TKD in the U.S.

IMHO, we need to keep in mind where our priorities should lie.  First and fore most your priority should lie with the support and preservation of the art(or sport in this case), the order of priorities after that depend on your own personal situation (kwan jang nim vs. sah bum nim vs. yourself).  Ultimately the order of priorities should be clear to you *if* you are honest about the first one.

Too often moves for political gain overshadow what is truly best for TKD, IMHO.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 21, 2010)

UpTheIrons said:


> Pretty rude to alter someone's post to reflect what you think it should say. Also says a lot about you Twin Fist.



yes it does, it accuratly reflects what I think of the KKW and it's fanatical fanboys.

And if you think THATS rude, do a post search on me, trust me, i have been much, MUCH ruder than that.

Hell, for me, thats positively POLITE. But if it got your knickers in a twist, i'll apologize


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## terryl965 (Jan 21, 2010)

Can we get back to the topic at hand, any real thoughts about how this will effect the USAT this coming year?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 21, 2010)

UpTheIrons said:


> Pretty rude to alter someone's post to reflect what you think it should say. Also says a lot about you Twin Fist.


Actually, ruder here is continuously reregistering for the site after being banned, what 4 times now?


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## d1jinx (Jan 21, 2010)

So back to the topic....

*USAT vs MAC or MAC vs USAT?*


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## d1jinx (Jan 21, 2010)

Terry,
after reading your post, you almost get the feel for the atmoshere.  Seems like MAC is unhappy with USAT but is attempting to play nice while biting their teeth.  It seems like USAT holds the power and MAC knows it.  I sense alot of resentment for good reason.  But at the same time, some (not all) of those in MAC are the ones who ran USTU into the ground.


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## MJS (Jan 21, 2010)

Folks,

We've already had 2 posts reported in this thread.  Lets not turn this into the usual pissing match please.  Return to the topic at hand and keep the other stuff out of the thread.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


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## d1jinx (Jan 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Can we get back to the topic at hand, any real thoughts about how this will effect the USAT this coming year?


 
I think I see membership continuing to decline.  Especially within the korean-american community.  I  also dont think the numbers at tournaments will be as large either.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 21, 2010)

its gonna be worse than that:

the numbers will already be down becasue of the economy

THEN add in the disgust with the current situation, and BOOM

the tower falls over into a swamp.


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## terryl965 (Jan 21, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Terry,
> after reading your post, you almost get the feel for the atmoshere. Seems like MAC is unhappy with USAT but is attempting to play nice while biting their teeth. It seems like USAT holds the power and MAC knows it. I sense alot of resentment for good reason. But at the same time, some (not all) of those in MAC are the ones who ran USTU into the ground.


 
Yes you are correct MAC are the ones that ran the USTU down, but when they where in charge there was a sense of fair play and great competition in all division. Last year Junior Olympics and Senior National there was alot of fighters that won a medal but lost there match because there was only two or three in those division, atleast 12 people won gold because they had nobody to fight. How can a organization that is suppose to be there for it members give away a gold medal and declare them a National Champion, why does these parents and people allow this to happen? I see everything going down the drain as it did a few years back.


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## terryl965 (Jan 21, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I think I see membership continuing to decline. Especially within the korean-american community. I also dont think the numbers at tournaments will be as large either.


 
Yes I can see that as well, for my school we only pay for a day pass for $7.00 instead of the yearly one, no reason to though away another $35.00 since we are only doing the US Open


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Yes you are correct MAC are the ones that ran the USTU down, but when they where in charge there was a sense of fair play and great competition in all division. Last year Junior Olympics and Senior National there was alot of fighters that won a medal but lost there match because there was only two or three in those division, atleast 12 people won gold because they had nobody to fight. How can a organization that is suppose to be there for it members give away a gold medal and declare them a National Champion, why does these parents and people allow this to happen? I see everything going down the drain as it did a few years back.


 

Although I was never big on olympic style sparring, I did compete at the Junior Olympics back in '97.. . As a second dan, there were 157 competitors just in my rank and weight division, and it is truly sad to hear that now there are so few competitors on the sport circuit.  Especially since the population of sport tkd dojangs is so high in the U.S. right now.


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## terryl965 (Jan 21, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Although I was never big on olympic style sparring, I did compete at the Junior Olympics back in '97.. . As a second dan, there were 157 competitors just in my rank and weight division, and it is truly sad to hear that now there are so few competitors on the sport circuit. Especially since the population of sport tkd dojangs is so high in the U.S. right now.


 
Don't get me wrong there are still big events like with the AAU thye have alot more competitors right now and the USAT are getting the majority of there Junior team members from them, they are a true org for the grassroot people. I remember back in the nineties and how big division where, man those where the days.


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## Archtkd (Jan 21, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Although I was never big on olympic style sparring, I did compete at the Junior Olympics back in '97.. . As a second dan, there were 157 competitors just in my rank and weight division, and it is truly sad to hear that now there are so few competitors on the sport circuit.  Especially since the population of sport tkd dojangs is so high in the U.S. right now.



That's a serious point. The decline in competitors has shrunk dramatically under USAT and sometimes I almost think there are people who want it to be that way for their direct benefit, to the detriment of the nation. That trend was there in the waning days of USTU, but I don't think USA Taekwondo has done much to improve the situation. What that essentially means is that the nation is likely not sending its best Taekwondoists to the Olympics and other international WTF events, despite what we are always being told.


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## mango.man (Jan 21, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Although I was never big on olympic style sparring, I did compete at the Junior Olympics back in '97.. . As a second dan, there were 157 competitors just in my rank and weight division, and it is truly sad to hear that now there are so few competitors on the sport circuit. Especially since the population of sport tkd dojangs is so high in the U.S. right now.


 
How many of those 157 REALLY belonged there?  Probably 10-15 at most, which is about the size of the average 14-17 BB bracket these days.  A huge majority of the others (like us in those days) were likely commanded by their Masters and Grandmasters to join the USTU and participate in the events because the Masters and Grandmasters got huge kick backs for bringing huge numbers of kids to the events.

Huge brackets do not make for good competition.  A good pool of strong competitors make for good competition.

I would much rather watch a bracket of 10 really good fighters and 5 crappy fighters go at it and finish at 5PM than watch 145 crappy fighters and 12 really good fighters fight until 4AM.

(I know my message is off the official topic, but I just wanted to respond to the notion that somehow huge divisions make for a quality event.)


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 21, 2010)

mango.man said:


> How many of those 157 REALLY belonged there? Probably 10-15 at most, which is about the size of the average 14-17 BB bracket these days. A huge majority of the others (like us in those days) were likely commanded by their Masters and Grandmasters to join the USTU and participate in the events because the Masters and Grandmasters got huge kick backs for bringing huge numbers of kids to the events.
> 
> Huge brackets do not make for good competition. A good pool of strong competitors make for good competition.
> 
> ...


 
To be honest I honestly have no idea how many of those 157 competitors "should" have been there.  Honestly I do not know if I should even have been there.  Olympic sparring rules are not what I am traditionally trained in, and although my kwan jang nim was vice president of the USTU, he *never* pushed or even spoke about any of his students participating in the junior olympics or senior nationals.  But he never discouraged us either.  

All I know is that I lost my last match because I lost points for "excessive contact."  It was this experience that made me realize that olympic style sparring and the sparring I was accustomed to were two different animals.. . So I did not persue the olympic endeavor any further.  

I'd like to make clear that I do not bash sport tkd, but it is just not what I have been trained in and was not something that I particularly enjoyed.  My idol was not Herb Perez but Albert Cheeks and Mike Warren.. . Just a different cup of tea.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> To be honest I honestly have no idea how many of those 157 competitors "should" have been there.  Honestly I do not know if I should even have been there.  Olympic sparring rules are not what I am traditionally trained in, and although my kwan jang nim was vice president of the USTU, he *never* pushed or even spoke about any of his students participating in the junior olympics or senior nationals.  But he never discouraged us either.
> 
> All I know is that I lost my last match because I lost points for "excessive contact."  It was this experience that made me realize that olympic style sparring and the sparring I was accustomed to were two different animals.. . So I did not persue the olympic endeavor any further.
> 
> I'd like to make clear that I do not bash sport tkd, but it is just not what I have been trained in and was not something that I particularly enjoyed.  My idol was not Herb Perez but Albert Cheeks and Mike Warren.. . Just a different cup of tea.


sorry to stay off topic but do they still deduct points for "excessive contact"? If so , I can only shake my head....


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 21, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> sorry to stay off topic but do they still deduct points for "excessive contact"? If so , I can only shake my head....


 
I honestly don't know, I haven't competed in that circuit since my first experience back in '97.


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## mango.man (Jan 21, 2010)

I don't know what rules were in place for 14 + Black Belts in 97, but I can assure you that these days the rules allow for full contact in those age groups.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 21, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I don't know what rules were in place for 14 + Black Belts in 97, but I can assure you that these days the rules allow for full contact in those age groups.


thats good to hear


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## d1jinx (Jan 21, 2010)

mango.man said:


> How many of those 157 REALLY belonged there? Probably 10-15 at most, which is about the size of the average 14-17 BB bracket these days. A huge majority of the others (like us in those days) were likely commanded by their Masters and Grandmasters to join the USTU and participate in the events because the Masters and Grandmasters got huge kick backs for bringing huge numbers of kids to the events.
> 
> Huge brackets do not make for good competition. A good pool of strong competitors make for good competition.
> 
> ...


 
Hey I remember those days.  I was terrified when i turned 17 and could spar in the adult BB division.  Requardless of if they deserved to be there, physically and mentally it took its toll on you when you had a large division.  Fighting fight after fight, weather they were good or bad was rough.  It was usually a toss up in the end on who would win, cause some would tire out, others would get hurt, and some got psyched out in the begining because of the numbers and froze in the first round.

It was different those days.

Now I too see people show up and get Gold , because they are the only one there.  No fault of theirs, but what is that doing mentally to them?  Building a false confidense?  Or discouraging them from entering next time becasue they wasted their money and didnt get to fight.?


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## mango.man (Jan 22, 2010)

I understand that every fight takes it's toll on each fighter but in reality a division of 157 is only 8 fights (7 if you are one of the 99 that would have a 1st round bye in a division of 157), which over the course of an 18-20 hour day would not be that many.  The hardest part would be fighting and then waiting several hours for your next warm up and fight over and over again throughout the course of such a long day.


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## msmitht (Jan 22, 2010)

Dunno much about the MAC vs. USAT. I do know why many Korean born instructors do not like the USAT very much. 
Imagine that you are a 7th dan who has seen and done it all. You register your top students for a national qualifier but can not coach them. You do not have a level one coaches pass to get on the floor because you run a school and can not take the time to go to a seminar, taught by one of your juniors, so that you can get one. 
Or imagine that you are a 6th dan who has coached and competed internationally but run into the same problem (Even though you were a one time resident athlete at OTC for 5 years).
How about a 9th dan who had to pay for a spectators pass at Nationals (saw it happen folks).
Now I am all for keeping spectators in their seats and making sure that the coaches know the rules. I have seen many coaches that belong out there and many who should get ejected for their behavior. We are human beings. We make mistakes from time to time. But let those who have legit exp out there.
Oh yeah.....one more thing :
The USAT will never have the support of the Korean-born/American instructors until they have one of their own on top of the organization.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 22, 2010)

Well said. These were my GM's problems regarding all this. My Gm was about 7th dan when he cut all ties to these organisations , in the end he was just fed up with it. I wasnt a part of the club when he left but from what Ive been told the club functions heaps better now without all the politics , seminars (run by his juniors) , changing of curriculum , coaches courses etc etc.


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## terryl965 (Jan 25, 2010)

Here is some more regarding everything, enjoy. 

To whom it may concern:

USA Taekwondo has paid $5,000.00 to the MAC in appreciation for their
efforts in last Februarys Special Testing held by Kukkiwon in Las
Vegas.  No funds were paid to any other entity or person from the MAC
by USAT.  No compensation of any kind was made to Joon Pyo Choi or
Hong Kong Kim by USAT for their services.

Some expenses in very small amounts were reimbursed to those
individuals for monies they had already paid out of pocket in
conjunction with the event.  This was strictly reimbursement of some
meal expenses.

USAT incurred a great deal of expenses hosting this event and when
time and labor are factored into the equation we made a very small
amount of profit on the event.  The extraordinary amount of time spent
responding to Kukkiwon and the applicants questions regarding the
grading of the exam and the delivery of the certificates has proved to
be a burden that has fell almost entirely upon USAT and has made the
event an extremely labor intensive endeavor.

David Askinas, CEO
USA Taekwondo


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## d1jinx (Jan 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> .........The extraordinary amount of time spent responding to Kukkiwon and the applicants questions regarding the grading of the exam and the delivery of the certificates has proved to
> be a burden that has fell almost entirely upon USAT and has made the
> event an extremely labor intensive endeavor.
> 
> ...


 

Ok, This I would have to agree with.  I can vouch and will say, the only person who helped me and personally responded and found answers was Mr Askinas.  
I had some questions and concerns.  Both before and after.  I wrote both David Askinas and GM Choi and GM Kim.  The only one who responded to the first email and the only one who responded at all (several were sent to GM Choi and Kim)  was David Askinas.  I can honestly say he responded to my emails with answers, and continued an open dialogue until the issue was resolved.  Keep in mind.... I am NO ONE.  I am not a national team member, nor do i have 300+ registered USAT members.  I am non existant, and he took the time to help me, and got me the answers.

Cant vouch for much else, but this part I know.  USAT took most of the burden for that endevour and I dont see anyone volunteering for that mess again.


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## dortiz (Feb 1, 2010)

Well that meeting should have happened this weekend. Anyword?


Dave O.


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## d1jinx (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm assuming it was and is more sensable to do it at the US Open, as GM Choi suggested, so maybe it is gonna happen then.


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## terryl965 (Feb 1, 2010)

I sure hope soooo......


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