# FMA contributions to boxing



## Mephisto (Feb 23, 2015)

It's commonly stated in Filipino martial arts circles that the modern boxing style of punching originated in the PI and came from the method in which Filipino Boxers fought which was based on knife fighting. I've tried to look it up but I can't find any documentation that the modern boxing stance and punching method originated with Filipino fighters. It seems only FMA guys are the ones spreading this rumor. 

What I have found from boxing sources is that the change from old school to the more modern boxing approach is attributable due to the establishment of the modern Queensbury ruleset. Older rules allowed standup grappling, wrestling holds, and trips. The older more upright stance sought to distance the opponent and prevent grappling. Additionally, the old fighters did not wear gloves so punches were more controlled. So it seems the main facilitator from old to modern boxing stance and punching was due to the addition of gloves and a change in rules. 

However, it still may be possible that Filipino fighters influenced the modern approach. Boxing was brought to the PI via American soldiers in the late 1800s/early 1900s. This was shortly after the establishment of the Queensbury ruleset and at the dawn of the first golden era of boxing in the PI. Does anyone have any verifiable sources that Filipinos did bring any unique technique to modern boxing? The only incidence I can find is the innovation of the "bolo punch" which is certainly evidence of some carry over of blade technique to boxing. But I have yet to find any verifiable account of the Filipino boxers changing the fundamental stance and punching method of boxing.


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## Mephisto (Feb 23, 2015)

Many of the FMA enthusiasts that perpetuate the blade influence on modern boxing state that the modern Palm down punch came from the way a blade fighter hold his knife either in a standard forward grip or reverse/ice pick grip. Others say the right covered stance came from blade fighting because an outstretched limb in a blade fight is a target. Thus the tight covered stance came from the Filipino blade fighters. However, I can't find any documentation of this.

What I did find was an account of the notable Jewish boxer Daniel Mendoza who is the first documented fighter to use a guard and move and sidestep defensively in a time when English fighters would stand toe to toe and trade blows. Mendoza is credited with being the first fighter to take a "scientific approach" and use evasion and footwork actively.


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## punisher73 (Mar 2, 2015)

I have never seen anything historical either.  Just as you have, the only references I have seen are from FMA circles.

Another common "myth" that I see spread in FMA circles is that the modern .45 round was developed specifically to fight the filipino fighters.  It is true that the new round was first implemented there, but it was known that the .38 wasn't a good round and the military was already looking at replacements.  It had nothing to do with the filipino fighters specifically or their ferocity.


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## Mephisto (Mar 3, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> I have never seen anything historical either.  Just as you have, the only references I have seen are from FMA circles.
> 
> Another common "myth" that I see spread in FMA circles is that the modern .45 round was developed specifically to fight the filipino fighters.  It is true that the new round was first implemented there, but it was known that the .38 wasn't a good round and the military was already looking at replacements.  It had nothing to do with the filipino fighters specifically or their ferocity.


I've heard the same about the .45, if I remember correctly by the time the .45 was reinstated it was too late. I'll have to revisit the topic.


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## Orange Lightning (Mar 31, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Many of the FMA enthusiasts that perpetuate the blade influence on modern boxing state that the modern Palm down punch came from the way a blade fighter hold his knife either in a standard forward grip or reverse/ice pick grip. Others say the right covered stance came from blade fighting because an outstretched limb in a blade fight is a target. Thus the tight covered stance came from the Filipino blade fighters. However, I can't find any documentation of this.
> 
> What I did find was an account of the notable Jewish boxer Daniel Mendoza who is the first documented fighter to use a guard and move and sidestep defensively in a time when English fighters would stand toe to toe and trade blows. Mendoza is credited with being the first fighter to take a "scientific approach" and use evasion and footwork actively.



I don't know anything about FMA influencing boxing.
I knew who he was, but I didn't know he was the first to use a guard. According to HEMA people that study historical pugilism, there are a lot of differences that came with adding gloves.
I'd rather just toss in some links than spout information about stuff I'm not expert on. Search these youtube links for pugilism stuff. Both links/channels. have good videos on the topic. 

EnglishMartialArts - YouTube
scholagladiatoria - YouTube


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## Mephisto (Mar 31, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I don't know anything about FMA influencing boxing.
> I knew who he was, but I didn't know he was the first to use a guard. According to HEMA people that study historical pugilism, there are a lot of differences that came with adding gloves.
> I'd rather just toss in some links than spout information about stuff I'm not expert on. Search these youtube links for pugilism stuff. Both links/channels. have good videos on the topic.
> 
> ...


I haven't watched the links yet but the addition of gloves seems like a tool that enabled the refinement of the punch. Gloves enable the boxer to train harder and preserve the integrity of his or her hands. The modern approach may present a greater risk to hand injury when gloves are not present but even a decent boxer against an untrained person is at such an advantage the risk of hand injury may be negligible. If you split a knuckle or even break your hand it may be a fair trade if your attackers are left crumpled and damaged on the ground and you and your family go home safe. With gloves your training is not limited by your hands and this you can train harder and more often and reach a higher level. I'd be interested to see a cost benefit analysis of effort training gloves vs conditioning gained by training ungloved. If the ungloved group sees significantly less hand injuries it may be worth while for non sports boxing enthusiasts to train less with the gloves. But I suspect that hand injury is a risk with any punch thrown and the difference in injury rates of gloves vs ungloved groups is not high enough to be worth the reduce training frequency and intensity required by ungloved training.


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## Orange Lightning (Mar 31, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I haven't watched the links yet but the addition of gloves seems like a tool that enabled the refinement of the punch. Gloves enable the boxer to train harder and preserve the integrity of his or her hands. The modern approach may present a greater risk to hand injury when gloves are not present but even a decent boxer against an untrained person is at such an advantage the risk of hand injury may be negligible. If you split a knuckle or even break your hand it may be a fair trade if your attackers are left crumpled and damaged on the ground and you and your family go home safe. With gloves your training is not limited by your hands and this you can train harder and more often and reach a higher level. I'd be interested to see a cost benefit analysis of effort training gloves vs conditioning gained by training ungloved. If the ungloved group sees significantly less hand injuries it may be worth while for non sports boxing enthusiasts to train less with the gloves. But I suspect that hand injury is a risk with any punch thrown and the difference in injury rates of gloves vs ungloved groups is not high enough to be worth the reduce training frequency and intensity required by ungloved training.



That would be interesting indeed. 
I don't know how they trained. But they did punch in a different way. They punch with a vertically aligned fist. The believed it gave them greater accuracy to help avoid knuckle injury from hitting the wrong target at the wrong angle with their knuckles. Plus, they thought it gave their arm a better bio mechanical alignment, so being accurate and fast was all the easier, with less mistakes made. 
Matches between two people could go on for a long time, with very few rules. The first ever rule they had that restricted what you could actually do in a fight was the rule about not being allowed to hit a man when a part of his upper body touched the ground. You could tackle, grapple, throw, and even kick. But kicking was considered ungentlemanly. "The kind of thing a Frenchman would do." xD
They would also move rotate their arms all the time to make them harder to hit, because the arms were valid targets. According to one of those sources, Mendoza's guard was designed to let him get really close to his opponent in relative safety so he could deploy his excellent in-fighting. 
I don't think they used something more like the modern guard because, with bare knuckles, punching someone's modern guard will put their own fists in their face. A couple friends of mine in the military told me that happened to them. 

With gloves, I would agree that it allows the refinement of the punch. Rotating the arm to strike with a horizontally aligned fist makes it possible to land with the higher up knuckles as the focus, instead of the lower 3. You can get more power out of those higher knuckles, but they don't fit so well into targets, unlike the bottom 3.
Bruce Lee recommended hitting with the bottom 3 with a focus on the middle knuckle in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. His favorite punch, the leading straight, is also vertically aligned. Food for thought eh?


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