# siu nim tao



## yak sao (Sep 6, 2008)

When you're practicing your SNT, what are you concentrating on, other than the obvious physical technique? Example, are you thinking of rooting, rising and sinking within the movements, elbow force, breathing, etc.
Just wanting some different insights. Thanks.

P.S. : what about Chum Kiu and Biu Tse as well.


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## mook jong man (Sep 7, 2008)

I think of these things in no particular order

straighten spine
pelvis rotated slightly forward
internal contraction on
relax shoulders , relax thighs , relax everything
initiating every movement from the elbow
focusing my mental and physical force out towards the centerline
I have a hard enough time concentrating with sil lum tao so with chum kiu and bil gee i just try and aim for correctness and whatever i can apply from above.


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## yak sao (Sep 7, 2008)

It sounds like you and I are on the same page. One thing I've been toying with lately is the idea of rising and sinking. Not so much in the knees but more in the spine, as if it were an accordion.
Rising on attacks and sinking on techniques such as jum sao.

Kind of like I'm throwing a medicine ball with someone. I expand the spine(rise) as I "throw it", as I "catch the ball" I sink.


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 8, 2008)

Be careful not to concentrate on your movements too much. The main skill you will attain from SNT is the ability to clear the 'red mist' in a fight. 

Before wing chun I was a very aggressive fighter. After learning SNT I realised that the part of training I was missing was to relax and calm down. So I could do my intense workout, learn to strike well and hard and work my drills, but also calm down with it. As my teachers have said - without that aspect of training you would turn into a nutter!

That is why a lot of cage fighters know how to relax well (go fishing, play golf etc). 

You will do the forms various ways. Sometimes I work on relaxing my arms. Other times I work on prducing large amounts of energy from my base. Other times I work on making sure that I am forming good structure. You shouldn't really do all of them at once as you will send your body conflicting messages


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## geezer (Sep 8, 2008)

yak sao said:


> When you're practicing your SNT...are you thinking of rooting, rising and sinking within the movements, elbow force, breathing, etc.


 
Yes.  


OK, seriously now, nobody can effectively focus their mind sharply on everything at once. So, if you do the form three times, perhaps you'd do it once emphasing technique and posture, another time emphasizing breathing and relaxation, and so on. Gradually, the whole thing will come together for you. 

One thing I might add is that in the WT system I learned, you are _not_ totally relaxed.  There is a loose, springy quality that is very different from the limpness usually associated with the word "relaxed". And In the "adduction stance" we use, the knees and thighs are drawn inward toward each other. This is countered by the forward rolling under of the pelvis. And the spine is kept straight, not slouched. Your head is held up and back as though hanging from a string. The stance adduction works against the forward tucked hips to create an isometric _tension_. This strengthens and roots the stance. Beginners usually find it quite taxing.


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## skinters (Sep 8, 2008)

well ,in my SNT there is a tensing on the end of the movement with your stance firm and rooted but otherwise relaxed through out .


i think if you focus your mind on one part of your body the other parts get left out and you end up feeling and looking uncoardinated .so i focus my attention throughout the body ,after all your body is a unit as i look at it and they rely on each other and not as is commonly seen as seperate parts .

just another peice of useless information for you haha


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 8, 2008)

Once you "get it" you really should not be thinking of anything,......adduction should come naturally,breathing too,nice and slow,one Tan,Three Fook.....easy does it...void....maybe happy...:ultracool


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## brocklee (Sep 9, 2008)

yak sao said:


> It sounds like you and I are on the same page. One thing I've been toying with lately is the idea of rising and sinking. Not so much in the knees but more in the spine, as if it were an accordion.
> Rising on attacks and sinking on techniques such as jum sao.
> 
> Kind of like I'm throwing a medicine ball with someone. I expand the spine(rise) as I "throw it", as I "catch the ball" I sink.



I'm not sure about the rising and sinking you're talking about.  When doing the forms you want to keep your head and shoulders as stable as possible.  If you're rising and sinking into the form, you're loosing structure by doing so.  I believe the sunken stance is the one you would want to stay in if the raised stance requires the use different muscles not normally associated with the stance.  

I myself stay completely relaxed and only use bonal structure and joint tension to stay upright.  Just this past week, I realized how to lower my elbow to the point that it feels like my shoulder joint is coming out of place just a little bit.  Like the top of the bone and I believe the collar bone create a gap in between.  This allows my arm work to take place without the use of the shoulder muscle.  Ever since this discovery, my bongs have been very smooth and the punches seem to be ALOT easier to throw out (meaning I can through more with very little sweat).  Lowering my shoulder this way creates a tension between my shoulder blades that seems to assist on keeping the arm movements chained together.  Meaning when 1 arm comes back, the other wants to go out.


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## martyg (Sep 9, 2008)

brocklee said:


> I'm not sure about the rising and sinking you're talking about.  When doing the forms you want to keep your head and shoulders as stable as possible.  If you're rising and sinking into the form, you're loosing structure by doing so.



Rise, sink, spit, swallow are common keywords in mainland Wing Chun families.  They describe action and energy (force vectors).  And if you're trying to do these motions from the positioning and usage of body you might be coming from, I could agree with you - just as in reverse others might find yours loosing structure as well.  It all comes down to what "structure" and "using it" means to you.  They tend to have more active hips, that are not locked or tucked forward, but "float" and get put in use.  It depends how everything is fitting together as a whole.  Its like arguing about a Tan Sao shape and its angle and positioning.  One of the first things people saw at the frist Friendship Seminar is that arguments on that became straw man arguments and made little sense.  The way each person did their tan sao and used their tan sao made sense for them and their engine, and little sense taken out of that and put in to another person's.


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## brocklee (Sep 9, 2008)

martyg said:


> Rise, sink, spit, swallow are common keywords in mainland Wing Chun families.  They describe action and energy (force vectors).  And if you're trying to do these motions from the positioning and usage of body you might be coming from, I could agree with you - just as in reverse others might find yours loosing structure as well.  It all comes down to what "structure" and "using it" means to you.  They tend to have more active hips, that are not locked or tucked forward, but "float" and get put in use.  It depends how everything is fitting together as a whole.  Its like arguing about a Tan Sao shape and its angle and positioning.  One of the first things people saw at the frist Friendship Seminar is that arguments on that became straw man arguments and made little sense.  The way each person did their tan sao and used their tan sao made sense for them and their engine, and little sense taken out of that and put in to another person's.



I agree.  But this should be done in the third form, right?  You still want to keep your head and shoulders stable no matter what the definition of structure is....I mean, how would you transfer the energy sufficiently without having a stable platform?


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## martyg (Sep 9, 2008)

brocklee said:


> I agree.  But this should be done in the third form, right?  You still want to keep your head and shoulders stable no matter what the definition of structure is....I mean, how would you transfer the energy sufficiently without having a stable platform?



No, they're in all the forms in these version - in fact in my family, its considered an important part of our engine to begin with and done within SNT.  Again, when you talk about "stability", its a contextual buzzword that means different things to different people.  Stable compared to what and in interaction with what?  For what I teach, certainly the shoulders are relaxed and not dipping on their own.  But there is whole body motion in the form, with the whole body rising, sinking, spitting, swallowing.


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2008)

martyg said:


> ...It all comes down to what "structure" and "using it" means to you...  It depends how everything is fitting together as a whole.
> 
> It's like arguing about a Tan Sao shape and its angle and positioning. One of the first things people saw at the first Friendship Seminar is... The way each person did their tan sao and used their tan sao made sense for them and their engine, and little sense taken out of that and put in to another person's.


 
 Very good points. Everything must be judged within its context. If you are truly studying a _system_ and not just a collection of techniques, then it is that synergy of all the parts that is most important. If you drive a Porsche, you don't use parts from a BMW or Mercedes. But you can't criticize their parts for not working in _your_ machinery. They work just fine in their own!


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## matsu (Sep 11, 2008)

thats the benefit of going 121 with my sifu- the hour i spend every month sorts my body mechanics out so my structure is balanced..... for me!

we are all different and i think as when i did karate the original techniques taught to us are for smaller frames, the majority of the western world are taller and have different frames so we need to adapt each technique using correct body mechanics to suit us as an individual.

for exampl....this last lesson i didnt realise i concentrated on getting my elbow up whne i did bong sau, and by him telling me to concentrate on the forearm going forward and keep the traps relaxed my while shape has changed.
his little analgies stay in my head and even in class where things are much faster i can stay relaxed and focused on those lil titbits.

worth every penny!!!

matsu


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