# US military beats out Disney as happy place to work



## Big Don (Oct 26, 2010)

*US military beats out Disney as happy place to work*







By 					 			 							 							 							Brian Anthony Hernandez, BusinessNewsDaily Staff Writer								The Christian Science MonitorExcerpt:
posted October 25, 2010 at 12:21 pm EDT 	 		
 	 	 		    	     	Disney owns the Happiest Place on Earth, but it doesnt employ  the happiest workers in the US, according to a new survey that  identified the most "blissful places to work." The list reveals all four  major branches of the military and the National Guard rank higher than  Disney and other well-known companies, such as Microsoft and Johnson & Johnson.
    		     	Despite lengthy deployments and lower salaries, for example, the  Army and National Guard ranked Nos. 1 and 2 in the career advancement  category, beating out Google for the top spots. The military also ranked high in growth opportunity, benefits and job security.
Corporate  America could learn from our militarys unique programs. The bottom  line is that when a company provides opportunities to grow and tools to  improve skills, it creates a happier work environment, said Rick  Wainschel, vice president of online career-guidance tool CareerBliss.
CareerBliss used independent reviews to evaluate companies  based on opportunities for growth, compensation, benefits, work-life  balance, career advancement, senior management, job security and whether  the employee would recommend the company to others.
In  a review from the more than one thousand appraisals written by military  members in 2010, an Army administrator in Georgia wrote, Serving in  the Army offered the ultimate job security, not to mention an unmatched  benefits package. It was also a good source of gaining valuable  technical and real-life experience.
End excerpt
They'd be even happier if they were paid better, as they deserve.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2010)

:BSmeter:

I'm sensing propaganda and advertising here.  Watch this video and just think about the sad irony of this claim for a moment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660#

All right folks, back to your normal program.  We have no idea where that came from.  "These aren't the droids you're looking for."


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## Sukerkin (Oct 26, 2010)

But this bit is resonantly true to all of us working stiffs:

"The bottom  line is that when a company provides opportunities to grow  and tools to  improve skills, it creates a happier work environment"

I know a major gripe I have with my job is that I basically have to train myself and make do with inadequate resources to make millions for my company and get little or no reward or recognition for it.  That does not make me a happy bunny.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> But this bit is resonantly true to all of us working stiffs:
> 
> "The bottom  line is that when a company provides opportunities to grow  and tools to  improve skills, it creates a happier work environment"
> 
> I know a major gripe I have with my job is that I basically have to train myself and make do with inadequate resources to make millions for my company and get little or no reward or recognition for it.  That does not make me a happy bunny.



Still, that's better then being the unwitting subject of a medical experiment or being poisoned intentionally or unintentionally to death.  Not to mention that you basically get to kill or be killed as part of a multinational corporate racket.

I suppose if you can suspend disbelief to a point where you can stomach the "great narrative", anything is possible.  

I saw Lee Greenwood perform at the Minnesota State Fair.  The crowd went wild for this song.  So, I guess it's happy happy joy joy.  The human mind is unlimited in its mutability.  It's even funnier in German.

Anyway, I know I'm smashing plates here, but some things are ridiculous.


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## CoryKS (Oct 26, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Still, that's better then being the unwitting subject of a medical experiment or being poisoned intentionally or unintentionally to death. Not to mention that you basically get to kill or be killed as part of a multinational corporate racket.
> 
> I suppose if you can suspend disbelief to a point where you can stomach the "great narrative", anything is possible.
> 
> ...


 

Dude, you really are talking about something you know absolutely nothing about.  Just stop, you sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum.


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## Big Don (Oct 26, 2010)

One reason Combat Arms troops are probably happy: Blowing stuff up, is fun...


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Dude, you really are talking about something you know absolutely nothing about.  Just stop, you sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum.



You should just watch the videos I posted then decide if think I know anything about anything.  How do you know anything about anything?

Maybe ask one question, braddah...


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2010)

Big Don said:


> One reason Combat Arms troops are probably happy: Blowing stuff up, is fun...



It's even funner to blow up people!  Especially kids!


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> It's even funner to blow up people!  Especially kids!



-1 for this comment.  How Orwellian.  ++ Good for free thought.


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## Big Don (Oct 26, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> -1 for this comment.  How Orwellian.  ++ Good for free thought.


maybe it was for the aforementioned childish temper tantrums...


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## Makalakumu (Oct 26, 2010)

Big Don said:


> maybe it was for the aforementioned childish temper tantrums...



I love children.  I talked a child out of joining the military this weekend.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Still, that's better then being the unwitting subject of a medical experiment or being poisoned intentionally or unintentionally to death. Not to mention that you basically get to kill or be killed as part of a multinational corporate racket.
> 
> I suppose if you can suspend disbelief to a point where you can stomach the "great narrative", anything is possible.
> 
> ...


 
This is true only if people view things from your perspective.  Not everyone does.  

And remember, people can hear what you and your sources say and still not view things from your perspective.  If you choose to decide that they are being coereced, that is your right to do so.  But, it does nothing to change the issues presented in this report.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> This is true only if people view things from your perspective.  Not everyone does.
> 
> And remember, people can hear what you and your sources say and still not view things from your perspective.  If you choose to decide that they are being coereced, that is your right to do so.  But, it does nothing to change the issues presented in this report.



I realize this and I thank you for your remark.  I wouldn't say "coerced" however, at least not in the way that most people think of coercion.  It is coercion, but not at the point of a gun.  It's at the point of a laugh.


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## CoryKS (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> You should just watch the videos I posted then decide if think I know anything about anything. How do you know anything about anything?
> 
> Maybe ask one question, braddah...


 

The topic here is the ranking of the military in terms of job satisfaction, something of which you will never have first-hand knowledge.  Stop littering the thread with your insulting comments about Nazis and babykillers.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

I can believe that the military is a good place to work. Both the United States military and our own are volunteer forces, if people don't know what they are getting themselves into they probably deserve everything they get but it's more likely they will be rejected anyway.

The military offers more than money or good working conditions it offers you the chance to experience the camaradie that is rare in civvie street. Friendships are more intense when you have to watch each others backs and you know you can trust your mates with your life. A great many service people have difficulties when they come out simply because civvies don't have that same trust, sense of humour and dependabilty you find in the military. There is an attitude in the military which means you don't sit whinging you take action. It's life lived to the full, it may be a short life but it's life not existing. We had a medal parade last week for one og the regiments back from Afghan, they brought up the wounded from hospital to receive theirs and they stayed in the medical receptions station we have here, and what a party it was, all the lads from the regiment came up to see them, there were wheelchair races down the corridors, huger amount of laughter. The next day after the ceremony there was a funfair, stalls and the bar. The wounded lads were going back to hospital after but they all went drunk as skunks, one of them was a triple amputee, both legs and an arm gone. He was well gone, he said it was easier to get drunk as the alcohol didn't have as far to go with him and he couldn't stop them buying him drinks because he hadn't a leg to stand on. 

You can get better jobs, you can get more pay, you can have a nice safe workplace but you will never taste life so intensely or have mates that  will lay down their lives for you whatever you think.It's like being alive compared to sleeping your life away. Not for everyone but if you haven't any experience of military life it's hard to understand and you probably shouldn't criticise what you don't know.

Bad things of course about being in the military, mostly that's down to the politicians and the governments, on the whole though yes the military is a good place to work.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 27, 2010)

I did see a comment that you have a higher chance of dying working at Disney than in the peacetime Army. There've been a couple of exposes on how poor workers have been treated there. Either of them though have better satisfaction and perks than the average McJob.


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## jks9199 (Oct 27, 2010)

"CareerBliss used independent reviews to evaluate companies  based on opportunities for growth, compensation, benefits, work-life  balance, career advancement, senior management, job security and whether  the employee would recommend the company to others."

Note the categories.  Lots of those are quite limited in many corporate type jobs.  Odds are that the vast majority of sales floor staff at major retailers aren't likely to move up to management.  Same thing about lots of other jobs.  The military is built on an advancement/career development model; both enlisted and officers are expected to advance and move on as they remain in the service.  Similarly -- training to do this is provided, and you're expected to take and participate in it.

Then there's the whole issue of job satisfaction...  Lots of people work to survive, and don't feel like they're job is doing anything but letting the pay the bills.  Many service members do really feel that they are contributing to a safer world, etc.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

For every story about troops killing civilians etc there are more telling of heroism in saving lives or making lives better for civilians. this example is a British one but I have no doubt whatsoever there's also American examples similiar to this, I just don't know where to look for them.
http://www.army.mod.uk/news/21797.aspx

In case you think it's Army propaganda its on other media sites too.

Our forces and again I believe it to be true of the Americans, are building schools, starting sports teams, providing medical facilities for the Afghans etc, much of it in their own time not while on duty. 
Why? because they put their money where their mouth is. 

Outside of warzones, in them a lot of times too, there are great sporting facilites for whatever sport you want, outdoor training such as rock climbing, canoeing,sking etc. There is great education facilities where you can study for degrees or brush up on your general education even on the front line. There's courses to go on so you come out with all your driving licenses from a car to a big truck as well as tracked vehicles. It's not a bad life but like many things you get out what you put in.

PS I did find a story about American soldiers. Well done lads!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=018_1280596019


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## Carol (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez, you might appreciate this given your daughter's own interests.

This is my niece.  She is an equestrienne who has competed in events in the Americas and Australia...and in uniform she is one kick-butt MP.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks for that Carol! Now she does have a hard job! Tell her to get an exchange posting over here to our RMP and we'll look after her!


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## Carol (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Thanks for that Carol! Now she does have a hard job! Tell her to get an exchange posting over here to our RMP and we'll look after her!



I'll do that! :asian:

It is a hard job, but she loves it.  She turned down a partial college scholarship to serve, and the only time I have ever heard her lament her choice was when she expressed how she did not like her initial MOS (radio signaling).  That all changed once she got accepted to MP school, and now she is working towards becoming a Warrant Officer someday.  She wants to stay out in the field, with the people.  

She loves her job.  That is not to say it is easy, or pretty, or convenient...but she loves it.  Which is kinda how I feel about my own job.   Perhaps she got the adrenaline junkie gene from her aunt


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> The topic here is the ranking of the military in terms of job satisfaction, something of which you will never have first-hand knowledge.  Stop littering the thread with your insulting comments about Nazis and babykillers.



Must have missed that link about Smedley Butler...

I wasn't talking about "Nazis" or "babykillers".  I'm littering the thread with a perspective that is about two years from becoming common.  As our currency continues to devalue, people are going to turn against the wars and see them as they truly are.  Comments about blowing things up, need to be put in the proper perspective.

And the people who serve, well, they are some of the coolest and smartest guys around, but they made a bad decision and threw their lot into a melting pot of bad karma.  I predict as the full cost of these wars becomes known, no one will join anymore, and no amount of articles like this will convince anyone of anything different.

Lastly, about this "study" itself.  How are they counting?  Do you think the Veterans with Gulf War Syndrome were counted as being happy?  How about the vets with PTSD?  Or how about the vets who got contaminated with DU and are on total disability?  Up to 25% of the units who use this stuff are in really bad shape now.  Who are they counting?

I can't do much to stop the war.  I can't vote and make it stop.  I can't just stop paying taxes for it.  But I can talk to young people about what they will have to do if they join and appeal to their better natures.  A former student of mine talked to me about becoming a Marine.  While I respect the will to serve and protect, I am compelled to put out this information to balance the propaganda and hopefully make a difference this way.

Lastly, I'm disappointed in people who refuse to look at any contrary information.  I get upset when people just go along with it and repeat the common message and we pay with so much.  The financial strength of our economy and country are at risk, but the physical risks that the people put themselves through for obfuscated reasons are even worse.

If service in the military was a moral job about protecting our constitution and our homes from the use of force against us, I would be waving flags and cheering on the good men and women who chose to do it.  Since it's not, I'm not going to pretend that it is anything different then what it is.  And I'm going to throw out a different perspective and talk as many fine young people out of it as I can, for my sake, for your sake, and for our country's sake.


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## CoryKS (Oct 27, 2010)




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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Must have missed that link about Smedley Butler...
> 
> I wasn't talking about "Nazis" or "babykillers". I'm littering the thread with a perspective that is about two years from becoming common. As our currency continues to devalue, people are going to turn against the wars and see them as they truly are. Comments about blowing things up, need to be put in the proper perspective.
> 
> ...


 

I think you need to separate the military from the government here. It's our governments that have put the troops into this situation not the troops themselves. They have joined up to serve their countries and to hopefully make a difference in a good way, the fact that governments have let them down is a huge cause for concern but the blame should be firmly put where it lies..with the politicians.

Your troops have joined up to defend your constitution, they are defending their country, your homes and you, but your governments have betrayed them as ours have our guys. Don't blame the troops, they serve their country, blame the governments who don't.

No, soldiers who have lost limbs and suffer PTSD aren't happy but ask them if they regret signing up and they'll say no, they'd do it again. 

My Brigade is just about all back now, just a few to come over the next couple of weeks, it's taken a battering. 50 dead, nearly 300 battle casualties, 30 of which are triple amputees and many probable cases of PTSD. Do they regret being injured, yes of course, do they regret signing up? very few of them do. They shouldn't have been in Afghan, it's wrong but the troops are right, they do their best, they serve their country , the politicians have betrayed them and it's up to us to look after them now but never, ever are the troops to blame for being there. 

Don't assume either that the troops are ignorant, uneducated or stupid. They know what to expect and still join up. We've had a recruitment ban in the army for most of this year, no 'propaganda' going out, no recruitment drives or ads. Plenty of television programmes about the war in afghanistan, the horrors of it, stories about injured soldiers and the dead ones yet when recruitment was opened up last month there were queues to join and not because of unemployment, as you know here they can stay on the dole if out of work.

 Don't patronise soldiers or assume they are naive and ignorant, they aren't. For them the decision to join up is a good one, don't insult them by thinking they don't know their own minds.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 27, 2010)

Aye I do have to concurr :nods:.  Tho I do I understand *Mauna*'s feelings about the misuse of the resources and courage that the governments who rule us expend so with such blase disdain.

For now, our miltaries are being put to use in service of economic goals rather than more morally noble ones but that has mostly been the case throughout all of history.  After all, it is only in recent times that we have come to believe that that should not be so.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye I do have to concurr :nods:. Tho I do I understand *Mauna*'s feelings about the misuse of the resources and courage that the governments who rule us expend so with such blase disdain.
> 
> For now, our miltaries are being put to use in service of economic goals rather than more morally noble ones but that has mostly been the case throughout all of history. After all, it is only in recent times that we have come to believe that that should not be so.


 
Absolutely, the blame however has to be laid at the politicians doors not the military. I find the idea that service personnel are ignorant and/or stupid very annoying, they are far from that and know as well as anyone why they are there.

(Sukerkin, our regiments are having homecoming marches through a lot of towns in the UK over the next few weeks if you want to keep an eye out for them. The QRL, my student's regiment is marching through Stafford on 11th Dec if that's not too far away?)


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think you need to separate the military from the government here.



The military is PART of the government, not separate from it.  They are a reflection of our politics and cannot be separated any more then you can separate on object and a reflected image.  If you take the object away, the image is gone as well.  No government, no military.



Tez3 said:


> No, soldiers who have lost limbs and suffer PTSD aren't happy but ask them if they regret signing up and they'll say no, they'd do it again.



This isn't my experience.  As part of my political work, I regularly speak to men and women where blown up in Iraq or Afghan and they are adamant that it was NOT worth it.  They would not do it again and they tell others to not waste themselves for this.



Tez3 said:


> Don't assume either that the troops are ignorant, uneducated or stupid.



It's not an assumption.  It's a fact.

Most soldiers know absolutely nothing about the things that are portrayed in the linked documentary.  If they do know about it, they want to get the hell out before they get hurt.  

Ignorance isn't stupid.  Just watch the video and ask yourself if you were ignorant or stupid because you didn't know this stuff?  I would never call anyone stupid because they didn't know it.  



Tez3 said:


> For them the decision to join up is a good one, don't insult them by thinking they don't know their own minds.



Is it a good one?  What about the people who did this?  Did they make a good decision?  Before you offer up the Nuremberg defense, know that you are held responsible for your decisions, you can't just claim you were following orders.  On top of this, people volunteer to do this.  They chose to spray nuclear waste in the form of DU munitions over the city and now it's worse then Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  The difference is that this waste will never go away.  It has a half life of 4.5 billion years, it will be there forever.  

Can you honestly tell me that you would join a governmental organization that would do that?  Can you honestly say that those men and women who did that made the right decision?

I went to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC about five years ago.  Everyone was appalled and was wondering how could people do that to another human being.  I'd like to submit this thread as an example of how it was done.  Apparently people think that wasting millions of people, spraying toxic nuclear waste that cannot be cleaned up all over the cities and landscape, and mortgaging our childrens' future on dreams of hegemonic empire is BETTER then dancing around in a Mickey Mouse costume and making children laugh.

I challenge you all, if you have a moral bone left in your body that is unbroken, you will call this what it is right now.


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## Archangel M (Oct 27, 2010)

Except for the deployments and the risk of death, the Army was part of my carefree days. I showed up, I worked when I had to and everything else was taken care of. I was fed, I was clothed, I knew where I was sleeping; even though sometimes it was on the hood of a HMMWV. For those who haven't lived it, there is a lot of stress relief in the regimented lifestyle. I didn't have to worry about if I was going to be laid-off or where the next meal was coming from. And on down time there were movies, kick *** gyms and free concerts. 

And muanu..your "experience" is anecdotal and IMO full of crap. I agree with Tez (it happens most often in threads like this Tez ). Like her...it's beem my experience that many soldiers would do it all over again. Surprise, surprise that YOU have only seen the opposite...color me shocked (BTW thats sarcasm). I have seen soldiers with prosthetics stay in the military and go back to the combat zone. Go pedal your expertise elsewhere.




> If service in the military was a moral job about protecting our constitution and our homes from the use of force against us, I would be waving flags and cheering on the good men and women who chose to do it.


:BSmeter::BSmeter::BSmeter:

Having never served yourself, WTF are you to say why a person puts their life on the line for their country? You have no clue.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

I will assume you are talking only about your troops. Ours aren't part of the government at all, their 'employer' is the monarch. Take our government away (please) and we will still have a ruler and the Armed Forces. Our troops swear allegiance to the Queen not the government, trust me, the loyalty is to the Queen. If push came to shove then the government could not bank on any loyalty from the Services.

Again I assume you speak for your troops when you say they wouldn't not join up again, the general consensus among ours is that they would.

I'm rather shocked that you think your troops are stupid, ignorant and uneducated. I'd like to hear others opinions on this. Carol, is your niece stupid, ignorant and uneducated, no, thought not. It's no good posting videos as 'proof' I can't see them, show me something else as I have no idea what you are talking about.

Nurembourg defence? How do I defend that when it was US marines? If I condemn it I'll be accused of being anti American and of course I can't condone it. 

The British forces are taught that decisions are up to them, they are responsible, perhaps that's why our infantry soldiers have 23 weeks basic training where such things are taught. Even the lowest and nesest soldier is taught to lead and how to take responsibility, perhaps it doesn't work that way in your army, I don't know. I also don't know how easy it is to get in your army, what qualifications you need or what tests you have to do, these are our basic ones, there's also an interview where the candidate is interviews and is assessed on knowledge of the army's role and current affairs as pertains to the army.
http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20277.aspx

Forces education is among the best in the country, it's ongoing up to and beyond degree level. Private soldiers with degrees aren't rare even in the infantry. It all leads to the point that each soldier is responsible for their actions and yes, we've had soldiers on court martial and found guilty of war crimes. 
You are focussing on one action by one group of service people, horrible as it may be and blaming every service person for it. they should be made accountable for their actions of that there is no doubt and I don't think anyone would disagree but ranting about all service people isn't logical. 
We were discussing recently on here the death of the British aid worker in the attempted rescue of the Americans. Now whether the American soldier was to blame or not an enquiry will find out but how would you feel if I posted up that I thought all American service people were murdering scum because of that one incident, or I blamed all Americans for the friendly fire incidents that killed our troops? there would be outrage, *rightly so*.
_If _there's blame in those cases it lies only with those who are responsible no one else. You, however blame your own forces, *all of them*, for Fallujah. That's so blatently unfair, it amazes me. It also means that because of that unfairness the issue is clouded. Laying a blanket of blame over all the American Armed Forces hides those who are responsible and disrespects those that aren't.


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## Archangel M (Oct 27, 2010)

No Tez...our troops are very similar . Take it from a Yank who WAS ONE vs one with an obvious axe to grind with the "military industrial complex".


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> No Tez...our troops are very similar . Take it from a Yank who WAS ONE vs one with an obvious axe to grind with the "military industrial complex".


 
You know, I thought they were but didn't want to speak for them, thought it better an American did.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> (Sukerkin, our regiments are having homecoming marches through a lot of towns in the UK over the next few weeks if you want to keep an eye out for them. The QRL, my student's regiment is marching through Stafford on 11th Dec if that's not too far away?)



Aye, I'll try and be there - it is only the next town over.  I quite often see what we have taken to calling the Gurkha Taxi's flying over where I work as they head for RAF Stafford .

Saw a pair of Apache's going over the other day - amazing sight.


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## Archangel M (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> You know, I thought they were but didn't want to speak for them, thought it better an American did.



While I have been "out" for a number of years now. I'm still in contact with a few who are "in". And most of the stories I hear from them is that our guys (Brit and US) get along really well in the field when they actually work together.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I will assume you are talking only about your troops. Ours aren't part of the government at all, their 'employer' is the monarch. Take our government away (please) and we will still have a ruler and the Armed Forces. Our troops swear allegiance to the Queen not the government, trust me, the loyalty is to the Queen. If push came to shove then the government could not bank on any loyalty from the Services.



Aye, I've heard it from too many squadies not to believe it.



Tez3 said:


> Again I assume you speak for your troops when you say they wouldn't not join up again, the general consensus among ours is that they would.



I have a close friend who was an artilleryman (nuke missile regiment) who is so ill that we frequently think we're going to lose him (dodgy ticker).  If they asked him tomorrow to serve again he'd jump at the chance without hesitiation.



Tez3 said:


> You, however blame your own forces, *all of them*, for Fallujah. That's so blatently unfair, it amazes me. It also means that because of that unfairness the issue is clouded. Laying a blanket of blame over all the American Armed Forces hides those who are responsible and disrespects those that aren't.



That is such an important point that it bears repeating.  

In any large organisation there is ever going to be a percentage of what we can euphemistically call 'bad apples'.  These will take advantage of a situation to give free-rein to their ill-intentions and, in all likelyhood, draw others along with them.  That latter is made all the easier by the sense of stauch comraderie that ties a unit together, unless there is someone strong willed and principled enough to counter it.

Evil things can be done in such circumstances but to blame all for it makes no more sense than blaming all Muslim worshippers for 9-11.  Lay the blame and the punishment where it justly lies rather than flay the whole military for the actions of a few.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> While I have been "out" for a number of years now. I'm still in contact with a few who are "in". And most of the stories I hear from them is that our guys (Brit and US) get along really well in the field when they actually work together.


 
One of our lads from the club has been training MMA with the Americans out in Afghan, he said they were more wrestling orientated so he's got a lot of new moves to show us while they take back the Judo and BJJ stuff he's taught them, summarises nicely I think the relationship, much in common with plenty to offer each other.

There's bad lots in every walk of life, the police have their share as does the medical profession, no profession or job is free of them, the forces are no exception but it tries as do all the 'good guys' to minimise, prevent or at least punish the people responsible whenever possible. If *all* service people were dishonourable nothing would be known about the things that do go wrong, there would be cover ups everywhere. People expect certain people to be perfect and never make mistakes or have bad judgement or to be down right bad. Medics, police, military, teachers even are all held to be that more moral and upright than everyone else so their 'fall' is greeted with more criticism than anyone else.
 The thing is, if you can do a better job why aren't you?


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye, I'll try and be there - it is only the next town over. I quite often see what we have taken to calling the Gurkha Taxi's flying over where I work as they head for RAF Stafford .
> 
> Saw a pair of Apache's going over the other day - amazing sight.


 
You'd better hope Gurkhas aren't 'driving'! Great guys but the most appalling drivers lol!


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

It's only a matter of time.  No one can defend it and people like me are growing and taking action everyday.  When the wheels fall off of the economy and these wars bankrupt the nation, there will be an explosion of discontent and anger as people ask how this all could happen.  I (and others) will be there to tell them why.

It will end and I will be a part of ending it.  What part will you take?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Having never served yourself, WTF are you to say why a person puts their life on the line for their country? You have no clue.



What you really mean to say is that I have no right to say anything.

I stated what I would consider a valid reason to support the military and I stated that since it wasn't THAT I don't support it.  You've got this whole thing twisted in your mind where people can't criticize the military, it's actions, or the people who choose to perform those actions...and you are only part of the problem that is going to drag down something that you obviously love and shred it in the muck.  

If you are upset, I would suggest that it's not with me, it's what I'm saying and what it implies.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> It's only a matter of time. No one can defend it and people like me are growing and taking action everyday. When the wheels fall off of the economy and these wars bankrupt the nation, there will be an explosion of discontent and anger as people ask how this all could happen. I (and others) will be there to tell them why.
> 
> It will end and I will be a part of ending it. What part will you take?


 

Personally I've always fancied the part of Shakespeare's Portia. You might have to think about that one.


A matter of time before what? You seem to think we are all condoning something we aren't. Put the blame for the wars where blame lies, Bush senior went to war in Iraq, our idiot government followed him in, Bush junior wanted to emulate daddy so second war in Iraq, again our idiot government follows like a pet poodle. 
The American government invades Afghanistan so our government with it's tongue firmly up Bush's fundament follows, therein lies the blame, on the politicians. Blame us all for voting them in if you like but of one thing you can be sure there's not one of us that doesn't want he war stopped and our toops come home safely. Don't assume we are all war mongers, even most soldiers aren't and don't assume you are the only one that is right and lastly don't you dare assume we condone atrocities committed by our troops or anyone for that matter. Your moral compass is no more correct than ours.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> You, however blame your own forces, *all of them*, for Fallujah. That's so blatently unfair, it amazes me. It also means that because of that unfairness the issue is clouded. Laying a blanket of blame over all the American Armed Forces hides those who are responsible and disrespects those that aren't.



I blame myself for it Tez3.  I'm paying taxes for it.  I'm sacrificing a portion of my livelihood to do that to people in Iraq.  Sure, I can't just stop paying taxes.  The government will turn it's guns on me and demand that I keep giving them money to commit war crimes.  I don't have to live in this country though and when I lose all hope and realize that I can't stop it, that will be my decision.

Until then, I think I can change things for the better.

Now, Google Beyond Treason when you have some time.  Check the video by the same name.

Also, realize that Fallujah is just one example.  Look at Wikileaks and what was released.  Look at how we ended up in these wars based on lies.  Look at the big picture.

Would you truly counsel a young person to be a part of this?  How much do you really want to be a part of it?

You have a choice.


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Personally I've always fancied the part of Shakespeare's Portia. You might have to think about that one.
> 
> 
> A matter of time before what? You seem to think we are all condoning something we aren't. Put the blame for the wars where blame lies, Bush senior went to war in Iraq, our idiot government followed him in, Bush junior wanted to emulate daddy so second war in Iraq, again our idiot government follows like a pet poodle.
> The American government invades Afghanistan so our government with it's tongue firmly up Bush's fundament follows, therein lies the blame, on the politicians. Blame us all for voting them in if you like but of one thing you can be sure there's not one of us that doesn't want he war stopped and our toops come home safely. Don't assume we are all war mongers, even most soldiers aren't and don't assume you are the only one that is right and lastly don't you dare assume we condone atrocities committed by our troops or anyone for that matter. Your moral compass is no more correct than ours.



The pioneers of a warless world are the young men (and women) who refuse military service.  Albert Einstein

You cannot abrogate your responsibility in choosing to follow.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I blame myself for it Tez3. I'm paying taxes for it. I'm sacrificing a portion of my livelihood to do that to people in Iraq. Sure, I can't just stop paying taxes. The government will turn it's guns on me and demand that I keep giving them money to commit war crimes. I don't have to live in this country though and when I lose all hope and realize that I can't stop it, that will be my decision.
> 
> Until then, I think I can change things for the better.
> 
> ...


 

So you are blaming British forces and probably all of NATO for Fallujah now?

I've already said I can't watch videos and I know more about Fallujah than you may think, I do read you know as do many of us. It was in the news straight after it happened and the the story about birth defects there isn't new either it has been known for a couple of years now. It was on Sky news in May 2008.

All wars are based on lies, look at history. All wars are hell, for everyone.

Righteous anger is all very well but thinking you are the only one who is right is a dangerous path to tread.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> The pioneers of a warless world are the young men (and women) who refuse military service.  Albert Einstein
> 
> You cannot abrogate your responsibility in choosing to follow.


 
and if the generation before us had refused to fight Hitler what then? If the RAF pilots had refused to fly against the Luftwaffe? If there had been no troops to mount the D Day Landings where do you think the world would be today? You think it would have been a better place full of concentration camps, the Jewish people extinct, black people extinct and the Gestapo on every corner?

Do you think peace is made by countries with no armies? I think you need to re read Einsteins stand on war btw.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/infodocs/people/pp-einstein2.html

"_Einstein's attitude to war resistance began to change. In the spring of 1933, he had believed that an efficient and wholesale economic blockade would be enough to bring down the Nazi regime. Now, in the summer, he pressed for an international peace force to prevent Nazi atrocities. Now, he supported the New Commonwealth Society's call for 'no disarmament without security, no security without an international court of arbitration and an international standing army'. 

More than that: he told the King of Belgium that, in the present situation, Belgium's army was a means of defence; if it came to it, conscientious objectors should be offered alternative war service. And he told an antimilitarist colleague; *'If I were Belgian I would not, in the present situation, refuse military service. I would enter it in the belief that I* *was helping European civilisation'*_ "





Me, I'll follow the colours, Death or Glory and the devil take the hindmost.


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## Big Don (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> and if the generation before us had refused to fight Hitler what then? If the RAF pilots had refused to fly against the Luftwaffe? If there had been no troops to mount the D Day Landings where do you think the world would be today? You think it would have been a better place full of concentration camps, the Jewish people extinct, black people extinct and the Gestapo on every corner?
> 
> Do you think peace is made by countries with no armies? I think you need to re read Einsteins stand on war btw.
> 
> ...


+1
I really like this quote from noted pacifist Gandhi:


> It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.


Which, seems to me to apply to a fair number of anti-war/anti-military types.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Why on Earth would you think that I was against self defense?  What else could I possibly be saying?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> and if the generation before us had refused to fight Hitler what then? If the RAF pilots had refused to fly against the Luftwaffe? If there had been no troops to mount the D Day Landings where do you think the world would be today? You think it would have been a better place full of concentration camps, the Jewish people extinct, black people extinct and the Gestapo on every corner?
> 
> Do you think peace is made by countries with no armies? I think you need to re read Einsteins stand on war btw.
> 
> ...



I actually agree with Einstein before and after his statement.

What makes you think that this war and those wars have anything in common?  You said before that these wars were terrible and that you thought you shouldn't be there.  Don't you think that it's dishonest to compare these two situations and demand that we honor the people who chose to follow two entirely different paths equally?  It sounds like you are demanding honor for something you didn't do?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Take it from a Yank who WAS ONE vs one with an obvious axe to grind with the "military industrial complex".



Yeah, it is obvious.

Eventually, everyone will have to grind this axe, or we won't have a future.  Or at least not the future we want for our families.  My children (and your children) deserve more then to be saddled with the debts incurred by these wars.  They deserve more then sacrifice their economic opportunities and their freedoms to the MIC.  They deserve to know the truth about what they would choose to serve and about what they would have to do.

How long are you going sit on the sidelines and make excuses?


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 27, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I challenge you all, if you have a moral bone left in your body that is unbroken, you will call this what it is right now.



If you can't do this, what kind of world will you invite?


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2010)

It's strange you talk about the truth yet twist our words to mean something we don't. 

It's also sad you think we have no morals, no compassion and lie just because we don't agree with you.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 28, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's strange you talk about the truth yet twist our words to mean something we don't.
> 
> It's also sad you think we have no morals, no compassion and lie just because we don't agree with you.



I actually think we both agree.  The wars need to stop.  We can't afford them and the waste in human life is horrendous.  

The only difference is that I'm pointing the finger at the all volunteer military and saying, "you are joining this and you are responsible."

That's a hook that very few people will throw into the mix because we are conditioned to respect our military and support them no matter what they do.  

The necessity of actually stopping this and having the kind of future I want for my family forces me to break this tradition.  

Irene, it would be easier if everyone was ignorant and it simply was a matter of educating people about the reality of what is going on.  The truth is more complex and some people do know and they join anyway.

In the end, it's a matter of priorities.  What would cause you to overlook the crimes against humanity and the rotten purpose the government has committed it's troops?  And a more important question then that is, should anything cause you to bump those things lower on your priority list?  Coming from a Jewish heritage with family that was directly affected by the Holocaust, this is a poignant question indeed.  Perhaps some Germans should have asked this of themselves?

I don't doubt that we share the same moral thoughts about these matters.  What matters is whether or not we think we are living our lives in alignment with those beliefs.  

I am not living my life in alignment with those morals because I haven't done enough to stop this and I continue to surrender a part of my productive energy (taxes) to grease this war machine.  A small fraction of my labor is dedicated to rape/torture rooms and that is abhorrent to me.  

So, there's my responsibility...and the more I point this out by holding up the mirror and having others take a look at their responsibility, the closer I get to being in alignment with what I believe.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2010)

Our army is a very old one, as you know it was old when we fought you, we have regiments older than your country. The way however you look at your forces and the way we look at ours is different, ours just is there, as it has for hundreds of years. Respect for the army, probably very little in actual fact, respect for individual soldiers plenty at the moment.

Have our soldiers committed atrocities? I don't know. I don't blame our troops the way you blame yours though, I've not been called to investiage any war crimes allegedly against our troops, doesn't mean to say they haven't overstepped the mark somewhere. As far as Afghan is concerned people seem to think the Taliban is a bunch of farmers, they aren't, they are a highly skilled, highly mobile force of professional soldiers. War is war and thats what our army has always been good at....fighting. The government sent them in and they are doing their duty, so far I have no reason to believe they have acted anything other than professionally so no I'm not going to condemn them. As for the leaks on the internet, I need to see more proof than that, I want witness statements, and physical proof that our soldiers have done anything wrong. It's only fair that without proper colloborating evidence they aren't condemned. I can't speak for your troops but I won't have mine thought guilty out of hand. Show me proof, proper concrete evidence of cases that haven't been investigated and dealt with. 


Many Germans did ask themselves the question and were put to death for it, more Germans were guillotined by the Gestapo than French people ever killed in the Revolution for being 'enemies of the State' and asking questions and protesting against the Nazis.


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## Archangel M (Oct 28, 2010)

Tez. I think it's important to remember that this is ONE Americans opinion about the military. And from someone who also thinks that the gvt "possibly" wired up the Trade Center as part of a conspiracy on 9/11.

Grain of salt. A lagre one.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Tez. I think it's important to remember that this is ONE Americans opinion about the military. And from someone who also thinks that the gvt "possibly" wired up the Trade Center as part of a conspiracy on 9/11.
> 
> Grain of salt. A lagre one.


 
Ah! I see!

I don't mind what he thinks, its just funny when he tries to put the guilt trip thing on us.


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## Archangel M (Oct 28, 2010)

As the saying goes "opinions are like *******s. Everybody has one and they all stink".


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## Makalakumu (Oct 28, 2010)

It's not guilt and it's not blame.  I'm simply pointing out the fact that we have a choice and that we are responsible for them.  If the bigger picture is something terrible, our choices contributed to making that happen.

Americans and British people may have a lot of differences, but this is something that all humans have in common.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> It's not guilt and it's not blame. I'm simply pointing out the fact that we have a choice and that we are responsible for them. *If *the bigger picture is something terrible, our choices contributed to making that happen.
> 
> Americans and British people may have a lot of differences, but this is something that all humans have in common.


 

'If'........that's the thing, it's an if.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 28, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> 'If'........that's the thing, it's an if.



Really?  If?  

http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/135896.html



> It is reported that the US and Britain used up to 2,000 tons of these ammunition during the Iraq war.
> 
> The World Health Organization is now investigating the rising number  of birth defects, which Iraqi doctors attribute to the use of chemical  weapons and depleted uranium ammunition during the war.
> 
> ...


Every person who pulled the trigger and shot this stuff over Iraq is responsible for polluting and harming innocent civilians who aren't even born.  Every human who will ever live in this area for as long as humans inhabit this Earth will be harmed by what these people did.

Really?  If?

This is worse then the Holocaust because over time, the health effects these munitions cause will kill MORE then the Germans could ever imagine.  The only difference is that they aren't piled in mass graves.  People will be killed by this so many generations after this happened that they will not even have myths to record this event.

You were part of that...and before you get mad at me and try to say that I'm just trying to "blame" I'd like to also say that I was part of it.  Every American and British citizen who payed for this munitions and turned a blind eye to how they were used is responsible.  

The Mongols salted the Earth ruined the agricultural potential of the Fertile Crescent for 1000 years.  We just polluted this region for all eternity.  It will be in the food.  It will be in the water.  It will be in the dust that sits in the carpets that little babies are crawling over for every generation of human existence.

I am mortified at the part I have taken in letting this evil happen and I didn't even fire a shot.


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## d1jinx (Oct 28, 2010)

I was stationed in Florida.... and *Never Once* went to Disney World  :uhyeah:


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2010)

It's 'reported', thats not proof of anything. By nature and training I like hard evidence, I want to see that proof and I want colloborating evidence. 

Who said it was a blind eye? You are assuming that here at least we didn't know about the bombing and the birth defects, as I said it's been in the media for at least two years, you aren't bringing anything new to the table here. The UK used 1.9 metric tons of depleted uranium bombs in Iraq, that's official btw. We knew that, it was announced in the House of Commons by the Defence Minister. The World health Organisation is one of those which is claiming that it doesn't cause as much damage as you say.

I'm not a scientist so can't argue on the effects of these bombs. I do know however having made a point last night of asking someone who trains with us and is in the Royal artillery what these bombs were. He explained that the depleted uranium is used as ballast in these bombs not as a bomb itself and that the effects weren't known as it was believed that it burned up when the bomb went off. It sounds as if it doesn't but it does seem clear that the using of depleted uranium to poison people wasn't intentional at all but a by product of the bombing. You can argue that the bombing itself was unecessary but that's another argument. The bottom line is that the poisoning is accidental in that it wasn't used as a chemical warfare weapon. I realise that there's still a tragedy out there but it's not the same as you are accusing us of.


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## Archangel M (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's 'reported', thats not proof of anything.



"It's reported" means "I get my material from conspiracy web sites".


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I was stationed in Florida.... and *Never Once* went to Disney World :uhyeah:


 

With our troops coming back from Afghan this month and next, Florida and Disneyworld is one of the favourite destinations for them to go on leave to. At Seaworld the audiences are asked to stand in appreciation for the American AND British troops, that bucks our guys up no end! Our service people can also get discounts and government rates in the US at hotels and places like car hire plus when Americans find out that they are British service people who have served in Afghan, Iraq etc they get treated so well and actually thanked for it. Makes a great place for our troops to holiday, so thanks for that guys, much appreciated.


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## Archangel M (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> With our troops coming back from Afghan this month and next, Florida and Disneyworld is one of the favourite destinations for them to go on leave to. At Seaworld the audiences are asked to stand in appreciation for the American AND British troops, that bucks our guys up no end! Our service people can also get discounts and government rates in the US at hotels and places like car hire plus when Americans find out that they are British service people who have served in Afghan, Iraq etc they get treated so well and actually thanked for it. Makes a great place for our troops to holiday, so thanks for that guys, much appreciated.


 

And well deserved.


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## d1jinx (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> With our troops coming back from Afghan this month and next, Florida and Disneyworld is one of the favourite destinations for them to go on leave to. At Seaworld the audiences are asked to stand in appreciation for the American AND British troops, that bucks our guys up no end! Our service people can also get discounts and government rates in the US at hotels and places like car hire plus when Americans find out that they are British service people who have served in Afghan, Iraq etc they get treated so well and actually thanked for it. Makes a great place for our troops to holiday, so thanks for that guys, much appreciated.


 
Seaworld use to give free admission with a military ID, along with a few other amusement parks.  

AND

I'll drink with a Brit any day.

glad to hear you get the welcome you guys deserve here.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's 'reported', thats not proof of anything. By nature and training I like hard evidence, I want to see that proof and I want colloborating evidence.
> 
> Who said it was a blind eye? You are assuming that here at least we didn't know about the bombing and the birth defects, as I said it's been in the media for at least two years, you aren't bringing anything new to the table here. The UK used 1.9 metric tons of depleted uranium bombs in Iraq, that's official btw. We knew that, it was announced in the House of Commons by the Defence Minister. The World health Organisation is one of those which is claiming that it doesn't cause as much damage as you say.
> 
> I'm not a scientist so can't argue on the effects of these bombs. I do know however having made a point last night of asking someone who trains with us and is in the Royal artillery what these bombs were. He explained that the depleted uranium is used as ballast in these bombs not as a bomb itself and that the effects weren't known as it was believed that it burned up when the bomb went off. It sounds as if it doesn't but it does seem clear that the using of depleted uranium to poison people wasn't intentional at all but a by product of the bombing. You can argue that the bombing itself was unecessary but that's another argument. The bottom line is that the poisoning is accidental in that it wasn't used as a chemical warfare weapon. I realise that there's still a tragedy out there but it's not the same as you are accusing us of.



1.9 tonnes in 2003, who knows how much more.  With the US it's been far more.  Also, if major international organizations send groups of doctors to the area to study it and they report what they do, why isn't that good enough for you?

Well, I think you should look into it some more.  The health effects were known in the 50s when the idea of using DU in munitions was conceived.  Their original purpose was that of last resort if the Soviets sent their armor into Western Europe and they could not be stopped any other way.

When DU is used, it burns and that is what makes it dangerous.  The density punches through armor easily and the burning and softness of the metal causes it to spread out as a fireball inside of anything it hits.  This burning property is especially useful against structures, which is why it was used so much in Fallujah.  

The combining of Uranium and Oxygen creates particles of dust so small that no filter can stop.  These particles can be ingested, inhaled, and can contaminate an environment, the food and ground water.  The burning begins as soon as the round is fired, so if a soldier happens to be holding or happens to be near the piece of armament, they will breath it in and they do not have adequate safety equipment, no one does.  

These particles get inside of a person's body, and the radiation that doesn't penetrate the skin (the alpha particles) easily penetrates cellular tissues.  It gets into the blood stream and begins to destroy the body from the inside out.  Anywhere this person goes, he brings the contamination with him.  Every time he urinates, defecates, leaves his saliva, and ejaculates it is hot.  US soldiers from the First Gulf War have reported that their entire families were contaminated by them when they got home.

The use of DU is a crime against humanity.  It kills the enemy, the non-combatant, and the soldiers who use it.  It repels the mind to think that a government would order the use of this stuff in such a blase way.  If they have this little regard for people, what else are they capable of?  If they claim to love the troops, how could they do this to them?  Check the master you serve and you are going to find that you no longer want to serve that.

If you choose not to look into this or not to even believe what I'm saying, that's your choice.  You're health may be on the line and you are hoping that I'm wrong and you can **** in one hand and wish in another.  I know which one you'll definitely get.  

This goes out to anyone who is active right now.  Don't read this and ignore it.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> "It's reported" means "I get my material from conspiracy web sites".



Imagine going to one of the many DU testing sites that the public can access. 

Lay down a blanket and have a picnic with your family there.  Do it regularly.

If you think that I'm wrong, would you do that?

Bon Appatit!


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium



> Studies in 2005 and earlier have concluded that DU ammunition has no measurable detrimental health effects.
> 
> 
> A 1999 literature review conducted by the Rand Corporation  stated: "No evidence is documented in the literature of cancer or any  other negative health effect related to the radiation received from  exposure to depleted or natural uranium, whether inhaled or ingested,  even at very high doses,"[106]  and a RAND report authored by the U.S. Defense department  undersecretary charged with evaluating DU hazards considered the debate  to be more political than scientific.[107]
> ...



Here are some studies used to justify the use of DU.  If you believe them, go and join *ArchangelM *on his picnic.  How confident are you that the governments in question are telling the truth on the matter?


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some studies used to justify the use of DU. If you believe them, go and join *ArchangelM *on his picnic. How confident are you that the governments in question are telling the truth on the matter?


 

Wow we've certainly gone a long way from the OP here.

You are treating us as if we were children in need of teaching something only you can.

To save having a long, long argument here I think we'd better return to the original subject. I'm not dodging this question, if you want a further discussion and are prepared for scepticism, sarcasm, irony, derision and the possibility of being shot down as you surely will be please make another, new thread.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Wow we've certainly gone a long way from the OP here.
> 
> You are treating us as if we were children in need of teaching something only you can.
> 
> To save having a long, long argument here I think we'd better return to the original subject. I'm not dodging this question, if you want a further discussion and are prepared for scepticism, sarcasm, irony, derision and the possibility of being shot down as you surely will be please make another, new thread.



My original point in response to this article was to make fun of it because all of these things that I've been talking about would indicate that working for the military was NOT a very happy job.  I suspected that the article was propaganda and I acknowledged that their might be a kernel of truth to it...and that was the most disturbing thing of all.  

I've started DU threads before, Tez3.  I've been researching this stuff since I first heard about it in 1995.  Those threads always end the same way.  People choose to believe what they want to believe not based off of the evidence, but off of some other set of criteria that they cannot or refuse to explain.  In another thread, I pressed some members about their hidden criteria in response to global warming and this same pattern was present there as well, but we did get farther to what I always suspected it was then we ever did before.  

People believe what they want to believe because it gives them some kind of benefit, the "truth" is irrelevant.  The convenience of the moment and the primacy of emotion are more important then reality.

In the end, this leads to people deciding to be satisfied with jobs that cause them to commit crimes against humanity.  Again, I submit this thread as an example of how things like the Holocaust can happen...and can happen again.  

This thesis strikes to the very heart of this article and is frightfully on topic.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2010)

Sigh. You don't know what I believe however nor can you know how far my knowledge of this goes or doesn't. I'm not expanding on it because thats not what *this* thread is about.

One man's propaganda is another man's recruiting campaign, in fact your posts can also been seen as both depending on what the reader believes.

My accounts of what I know and see every day of service life isn't propaganda. Join up or don't, up to you.


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## Archangel M (Oct 29, 2010)

On yet another tangent. I find that quite a few anti-military types have, let me say adequacy and self-esteem issues. Not all, and not saying anybody on this thread does, but there are quite a few "I could have been but...." types out there. Quite a few try to make up for it through martial arts, paintball, gun nuttery..etc.


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## Empty Hands (Oct 29, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Here are some studies used to justify the use of DU.



Only studying cancer effects tips the scales a bit.  Uranium 238 is not a particularly strong radionuclide.  We can use the stuff for microscopy applications without shielding, which we wouldn't do for other isotopes like even the very weak 3H (tritium).  Part of that is the extremely long half-life, although that doesn't matter if you get a lot of it together in one place.  What I would be more worried about than the radioactivity effects would be the potential for heavy metal toxicity.  At the concentrations indicated, you probably couldn't even detect the radioactivity over background - but heavy metal poisoning is far more potent at those concentrations.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> On yet another tangent. I find that quite a few anti-military types have, let me say adequacy and self-esteem issues. Not all, and not saying anybody on this thread does, but there are quite a few "I could have been but...." types out there. Quite a few try to make up for it through martial arts, paintball, gun nuttery..etc.


 
Ah the Walts again  :lol:


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## Archangel M (Oct 29, 2010)

If I remember correctly, my in-service DU training stated it was more of an inhalation hazard vs a radiological one. That was a while ago though.


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## CoryKS (Oct 29, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Only studying cancer effects tips the scales a bit. Uranium 238 is not a particularly strong radionuclide. We can use the stuff for microscopy applications without shielding, which we wouldn't do for other isotopes like even the very weak 3H (tritium). Part of that is the extremely long half-life, although that doesn't matter if you get a lot of it together in one place. What I would be more worried about than the radioactivity effects would be the potential for heavy metal toxicity. At the concentrations indicated, you probably couldn't even detect the radioactivity over background - but heavy metal poisoning is far more potent at those concentrations.


 
That's just what They want you to believe!!1!


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## d1jinx (Oct 29, 2010)

And I still have never been to Disney World...... hmmmmm....


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2010)

I fancied going to Disney Paris but have no kids to take and would feel daft going without at least one ankle biter.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Only studying cancer effects tips the scales a bit.  Uranium 238 is not a particularly strong radionuclide.  We can use the stuff for microscopy applications without shielding, which we wouldn't do for other isotopes like even the very weak 3H (tritium).  Part of that is the extremely long half-life, although that doesn't matter if you get a lot of it together in one place.  What I would be more worried about than the radioactivity effects would be the potential for heavy metal toxicity.  At the concentrations indicated, you probably couldn't even detect the radioactivity over background - but heavy metal poisoning is far more potent at those concentrations.



From what I've read, the heavy metal toxicity is part of the symptoms that people are experiencing.  The other part is the alpha emissions occurring from inhaled or ingested uranium oxide.  Alpha particles aren't not typically harmful, a sheet of paper can block them.  Inside the body, in close proximity to cells, these particles are a bigger issue.  The body is okay at removing them, but like many other heavy metals, some will always remain and slowly emit radiation inside the body.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> That's just what *They *want you to believe!!1!



The Antidote to *They*

Starts with "I don't know."
Proceeds with understanding bias.
Finishes with acceptance and willingness to change.

Some people can be enlightened with a candle.  Others need a flamethrower.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not expanding on it because thats not what *this* thread is about.



This thread is about what I'm talking about.  Not everyone or everything falls under that broad brush, but very few have the courage to attempt to differentiate.  We're taught to go along with it and heap praise even if it's unearned.  My message in response to this article, is think for yourself, judge a person by action and not some pre-existing expectation or stereotype.  Judge a job by the actions performed.  

Who am I to judge an organization that kills, burns, rapes, and poisons the innocent?  Who am I to say that this shouldn't make a person happy?

Who am I if I don't say it?


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## elder999 (Oct 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I fancied going to Disney Paris but have no kids to take and would feel daft going without at least one ankle biter.



Oh, go ahead and go. I'm gonna take Rita(that's the wife) and both of our inner ankle biters.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> On yet another tangent. I find that quite a few anti-military types have, let me say adequacy and self-esteem issues. Not all, and not saying anybody on this thread does, but there are quite a few "I could have been but...." types out there. Quite a few try to make up for it through martial arts, paintball, gun nuttery..etc.



On another tangent, anti-military and anti-war are two different things.  I've elaborated on this and about other things in other threads.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> This thread is about what I'm talking about. Not everyone or everything falls under that broad brush, but very few have the courage to attempt to differentiate. We're taught to go along with it and heap praise even if it's unearned. My message in response to this article, is think for yourself, judge a person by action and not some pre-existing expectation or stereotype. Judge a job by the actions performed.
> 
> Who am I to judge an organization that kills, burns, rapes, and poisons the innocent? Who am I to say that this shouldn't make a person happy?
> 
> Who am I if I don't say it?


 


Who are you to make blanket accusations against every service person?
Who are you to decide the guilt and innocence of millions of people?

You are so sure then that everyone joins up thinking it's a job akin to one in the local supermarket that suddenly turns out to be in a warzone? You think people joining the army wouldn't cotton on to what the job entails when they get issued guns and shown how to use them? Bollocks. People know what it is before they join, they may join initially for different reasons but they all know it's to serve their country. They take pride in what they do and they do it to the best of their abilities.

Whether the country serves it military well or not is a long discussion and not my point here. 

Do the innocent get killed, yes they do. *I wish it were not so and so does every other service person I know. *I wish there were no wars and we didn't need armed forces, I wish there were no starving people, no refugees, no flood victims, no abused children but wishing doesn't make it so. So we must do what we can to stop as much suffering as we can and you don't do that by ranting on the internet. I'm not going into all the things I help support either with money or time, I'm sure a great many people here do the same as I. 

You paint this picture of the Servicies as some sort of Vandal/Goth horde wreaking its way across the world spreading death and destruction. You say anti military and anti war are two different things but to you they don't seem to be, you have made it clear that you regard all the military as war criminals. Now some are, theres no doubt but have you noticed the disgust felt by other service personnel towards this people? Have you heard anyone from the forces defending them? I haven't. When the stuff came to light about the way the Iraqi prisoners were being treating by soldiers I heard condemnation from all quarters, soldiers saying that's *not* what soldiers should do. I have no doubt that American soldiers were also condemning the actions, it came to light, and there were court martials. The forces don't want this behaviour either, they want people with honour and will weed it out. If you think they cover everything up you are wrong, it may not be publically known but it's dealt with. The people with honour in the forces of which there is a great many, the majority in fact make sure. 

You have a case of the soldier who is accused of killling civilians at the moment, if that was the normal behaviour of soldiers would he be on trial or just left to carry on? No, other soldiers have reported him and are testifying against him, honour binds them to. We've had similiar types of cases.

If I posted up something alone the lines of all Americans are gun toteing murdering swines killing thousands of innocents everyday you would come back pretty damn quick at me saying.......

_"My message in response to this article, is think for yourself, judge a person by action and not some pre-existing expectation or stereotype. Judge a job by the actions performed_." 

yet you are unable to do this yourself, you feel qualified to judge thousands of people you don't know, have a stereotype of in your head as ignorant thugs hoodwinked into fighting for their country. Judge them indeed by all their actions not the actions of a few. Look at those that are risking their lives to do the right thing, to actually help build instead of destroying, that safeguard lives instead of taking lives. 

Do you think we heap praise on the military just because they wear a uniform? or do you think it's perhaps because we know these people have made a commitment to defend their country, that they are dedicating themselves to a life of potential hardship, the risk of death and injury so that others don't have to? Regardless of what governments use the military for the bottom line is that these men and women have joined up voluntarily and are risking death and injury so you don't have to.

The Colonel of the Scots Guards who have just come back from Afghan, stated his objectives before they went and very high on the list of requiments for his Guards was Moral Courage, to do the right thing as a matter of honour. Don't you dare sit there and tell me these men and women raped, killed, and poisoned their way across Afghanistan. These people went out with the intention of doing what they can to help make a difference and to fight a professional army, the Taliban. When they parade to receive their medals on St Andrew's day next month you can be sure they will hold their heads up high and will be proud that they have upheld the regiment's honour. The concept of honour may be old fashioned and redundant to you but not to the regiments here, the Scots Guards have been guarding that honour jealously since 1642 and you have no idea what it means to them, its fierce, a living entity almost. If you don't live up to that you are out on your ear pdq.

Honour, comradeship, eterntal friendships, patriotism at its best not jingoism, the idea of making a difference for the better these are things that drive people in the forces and *that's what allows other people to enjoy their work at Disney.*


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## Sukerkin (Oct 30, 2010)

Very cogently written, good lady :bows:.

As has been said several times in this thread, there are 'bad apples' in every organisation.  When the task of that organisation involves the use of projection of deadly force, then those 'bad apples' can cause some evil things to be done.

Sometimes, I have no doubt, they 'get away' with it because there is noone who witnesses it with the moral courage to do something about it.  But I equally have no doubt, as you say, that there are other times too when the reverse is true.

I do happen to hold to the idea that, as a species, we'd be better off not killing each other and trying to impose power over others ... but that is not yet where we have gotten too.  Indeed, I fear we are sliding back in that regard as the economically developed nations seek to secure for themselves the resources to fuel their over-consumption.

However, until someone can figure out a way to get all nations and peoples to renounce the use of force to achieve their goals, it would be the depth of foolishness to be the only one who 'lays down their arms' (I know that the arguement exists that someone has to be the first and I don't have an answer to that).

I am, in truth, anti-war, with the proviso that wars of defence are an entirely different thing than wars of aggression or avarice.  But I am not anti-military.  How could I be when the turning point I regret most in my life is where I obeyed the wishes of my father and did not step up to the line and join the Royal Navy when that is what I most wanted to do?  

The Warrior has been a part of the human psyche for as long as we have been in existence (as far as we can tell).  The role of the Warrior has been different things to different people over the ages but the core is still that of the soldier that volunteers to stand between his folk and their foe.  That buys you at least a due modicum of respect in my book, even if the use that soldiers courage is put to is one I disagree with or despise.

I do understand what *Mauna* is trying to say here and give him due credit for facing the fire to say it.  I also acceed to the truth of the old song lyric "What if they gave a war and noone came?" i.e. that without those who sign-up there can be no fighting.

However, I do not think tho' that your message, with it's volatile, negative, background, will have a positive impact upon those here who have either served or, such as myself, who share a similar mind-set to those that have done so.


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## Carol (Oct 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Who are you to make blanket accusations against every service person?
> Who are you to decide the guilt and innocence of millions of people?
> 
> You are so sure then that everyone joins up thinking it's a job akin to  one in the local supermarket that suddenly turns out to be in a warzone?  You think people joining the army wouldn't cotton on to what the job  entails when they get issued guns and shown how to use them? Bollocks.  People know what it is before they join, they may join initially for  different reasons but they all know it's to serve their country. They  take pride in what they do and they do it to the best of their  abilities.
> ...




My sis got me a T-shirt that says:



> Some people will live their whole life, wondering if they will ever make a difference.
> 
> My niece is in the U.S. Army.  She doesn't have that problem.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2010)

Mauna however is assuming that only a few know about the DU and only a few care and that's far from the truth. It's been in the public domain now for at least two years if not longer, there are many organisations protesting and trying to stop the use of DU, there's International Days of Action, there is a very big chunk of the world's population doing something to stop the use of DU. If you go on Google there are pages of protest groups, blogs, organisations and groups dedicated to protesting against the us of DU in bombs. It has been the subject of television documentaries and current affairs programmes as well as newpsper articles. To assume too that the forces stay silent on this subject is to be mistaken, just because it's not said in public owing to things like Official Secrets Acts and the Allies equivalent, doen't mean to say it's not being said. To assume people here on MT are deliberately ignoring it or just believing the propaganda is a mistake too. The Americans who post on here are probably the most sceptical folk where politicians and governments are concerned,that I've met lol! I don't think for one minute they follow the party line and from what I've seen they think pretty much for themselves.


Only fools and arms dealers want wars, no one else in their right mind does. Sadly we have many who can't be described as being in the mind for peaceful negociations so we are left with a choice, fight or go under to the despots and tyrants because while I don't believe the Afghan and Iraq wars were justified the moment we let down our guards there will come those who will try to dominate us and take our freedoms away. Most of us moan about our governments etc but would we truly be willing to give them up for a Pol Pot, Stalin or Hitler. Those of you you dislike Obama or Bush would you be willing to have the North Korean model instead? Our stsytems aren't perfect but they are better than dictatorships and we do work to make things better, we do have a voice even if people don't listen or we feel helpless. How much more helpless would we be in North Korea, Myanmar or Rhodesia for example?

I don't suppose it's really for me to say that if the Americans forefathers hadn't stood up for what they believed in and put their lives on the line for it you would be ruled still by England or perhaps be part of the German empire instead with concentration camps etc. Who knows other than a country was born because of it's willingness to fight.

One day perhaps we shall have peace and Service people will be the first to shout hallelujah I promise but until that day arrives we must do the best we can to make sure it's that much closer to coming.

Not all wars are just, I believe the Allied governments are wrong and all our troops should be pulled out of Afghanistan but the troops have sworn oaths of loyalty to their countries and they will not break faith with their countries. Their countries do however break faith with them, that we should do something about. For the Brits - buy a poppy, go to a homecoming parade, buy something from the Help for Heroes shop, fund raise for the British Legion, Help for Heroes or one of the Regimental Funds...the Scots Guards have a cracking CD of their bands both military and pipe if you donate over a tenner to their Colonel's fund! The Mercian's fund is very low due to the amount of injured they are supporting.










Peace will come only when every man woman and child is fed, secure and safe. Peace will only come when reason rules not might but until that day comes our troops are there to do the unspeakable and to lay down their lives to keep us safe so that we may live our lives never having to do what they do. That you speak in freedom is testament to those troops. We owe them a debt that cannot be repaid but we can keep faith with them.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Oct 30, 2010)

I get maunakumu's point.  "For evil to flourish, it only requires for good men to do nothing."  His point is that if we know what is going on, and we do nothing about it, then evil will flourish and we are as equally responsible as those who made the evil decision in the first place.  He even blames himself as one who, with his taxes, supports such action and does the "safe" thing to stop it.  By that I mean he will convince others to not join the military, but he won't risk jail by refusing to pay his taxes in support of his convictions.

I get it.

But, what I take issue with is that his world view must be the only acceptable answer for what is occurring.  Just because people don't see things his way means they are duped into believing it.  In this context, I believe that the military needs to use the technology available to defeat their enemies in the most efficient manner possible to meet their goals.  If that means DU rounds, then so be it.  Until there is "safe" military ordinance, then that is what they must have.

Maunakumu, I would caution you that we do not live in a world of black and white.  There are costs and benefits to every decision made which have to be made.  I think that it is perfectly ok to argue these positions, and would, in fact, encourage it.  But, I think that it is the height of arrogance to assume that your knowledge is perfect, and therefore anyone who doesn't agree with you on this issue is committing evil.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 30, 2010)

I don't believe that you can separate the government and its military.  The government creates the military as I've stated earlier.  If we believe that the actions the government required were unjust, why continue to do it?  Is that judgment or is that a wake up call?  All I've done here is point out that we have a choice and attempt to clarify the choice.

This thread isn't going to have much impact on things.  I don't expect to change the world with it.  If anything, I'm learning how this opinion is going to be received IRL.  Look, you can blow me off as a military-hater, but that's not the intent of my words.  I'm just one man standing up and pointing out our collective responsibility.

If everybody thought about that, the good men and women in uniform wouldn't be in the situation they are in now.  If the government is going to create an organization to use violence, we must have people who think about their collective responsibility with the use of violence.  

IMHO, I don't think anyone should join the military right now.  I would love it if every time the government tried to send our soldiers on some barmy mission with dubious goals, people would just walk away and recruitment would drop to zero.  That would put an end to it faster then voting, that's for sure.  *As long as people volunteer and sacrifice to do these things, the horror will continue.*

That's about as clear as I can make my point.  Ask yourself if that really sounds like a hater to you?  IMO, we need many many many more people to come out and say this.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 30, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> I get maunakumu's point.  "For evil to flourish, it only requires for good men to do nothing."  His point is that if we know what is going on, and we do nothing about it, then evil will flourish and we are as equally responsible as those who made the evil decision in the first place.  He even blames himself as one who, with his taxes, supports such action and does the "safe" thing to stop it.  By that I mean he will convince others to not join the military, but he won't risk jail by refusing to pay his taxes in support of his convictions.
> 
> I get it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this post.  My knowledge is NOT perfect.  I think a lot of friction comes when people refuse to even consider the possibility that they might be wrong.  It also comes from a cultural expectation that I've decided to directly challenge.  I feel that when I point out things like DU, I'm putting the details on a black and white image that weren't there before.  In the end, we have to decide and if we find out that we are wrong, we have to change.

This is a very touchy issue with a lot of strong feelings on both sides.  Maybe the next time around, I'll keep the satire and sarcasm to myself.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2010)

Mauna, in the UK the military was raised by the lords and barons for the monarch, today the military still 'belongs' to the monarch. They swear fealty to her alone never to a government or Prime Minister, it means they belong to the country not the politicians. You may think this makes little difference but it does actually, it gives the heads (and anyone else) of the military the right to argue and to refuse to do do what the government wants and they have done before now.

We are open to have our minds changed but you think we don't care about the innocent people, that we don't care about DU being used and the cost in human terms of war but you are wrong. You seem to think you are a one man campign when you aren't, as I said the subject of DU arose some time ago and a great deal is being done to combat it, I already knew that as I suspect many people on this board did. it's a big issue in the forces if you didn't know as it could be a cause of Gulf War Syndrome so you are not the only one fighting this, a good many other organisations are out there as well.
http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/i/71.html

Take a look at this from the Royal British Legion site
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/search?q=depleted+uranium&x=18&y=12


Heres some views from soldiers (not officers) from a British military site_._
_"Re: Birth defects 'have risen since US Falluja operation' _
_There is some suggestion that potentially contaminated waste might have entered the water supply after the wreckage was ... bulldozed into the river. __http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...operation.html_


_However, it's also worth remembering that Saddam had a LOT of nasty chemicals industry, and didn't listen to the Health and Safety Executive. _

_http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...fallujah_2.htm_

_"Fallujah II was one of Iraq's principal CW precursor production facilities before the Gulf war. In the last few years the Iraqis upgraded the facility and brought in new chemical reactor vessels and shipping containers with a large amount of production equipment. They expanded chlorine output far beyond pre-Gulf war production levelsâ&#8364;&#8221;capabilities that can be diverted quickly to CW production. Iraq sought to purchase CW agent precursors and applicable production equipment and tried to hide the activities of the Fallujah plant. _

_Before the Gulf War Iraq depended on importing-specialized equipment-and some chemicals to purify its water supply, most of which is heavily mineralized and frequently brackish to saline. Chlorination normaly is accomplished during several stages of purification, including the inital treatment stage to prevent the equipment from liming and to kill pathogens just prior to storing the fully treated water. The chlorine used in most plants is either sodium hypochlorite, a liquid, or calcium hypochlorite, a powder. If they are equipped with injectors, low-capacity plants can use chlorine gas directly. At the time of the Gulf War, Iraq's plant in Fallujah and the PC-I petrochemical plant at Basrah produced sodium hypochlorite and, as a by-product, caustic soda, which was used to adjust the PH of water supplies. Normally, both locations produced relatively small quantities of chlorine for industrial and some municipal use; chlorine for municipal supplies also was imported. [SOURCE: IRAQ WATER TREATMMENT VULNERABILITIES DIA WASHINGTON DC - 22 JAN 91] _


_Some dodgy maps on this:_
_http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...q/fallujah.htm_
_suggest that the Fallujah CW plant cluster weren't that far away from the town. _
_Inspection showed up a lovely mix of stuff, 'herbicides' ' pesticides', phenols and aniline (strangely carcinogenic, and used in rocket fuel) _
_I'd check the local groundwater and wells for dumped chemicals before I'd start blaming DU. _

_PS- We ought to know about Fallujah II. We built it in the 1980's!_
_http://www.mail-archive.com/thepower.../msg00680.html_​_There is some medical research that links these kind of birth defects to agricultural pesticides (not a million miles away from CW agents), but there is also the possibility that there were other things being produced in the area. _
_http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/971203_sites.htm_
_"Fallujah II: This facility produced chemical weapons precursors destined for the Muhanna site. Products included chlorine, phosphorous trichloride and oxychlorode, thiony1 chloride, and with high probability two direct nerve agent precursors. The site was bombed during the Gulf War. Remaining precursors and equipment were transferred to the Muthanna site for destruction under the supervision of the Chemical Destruction Group. Located 65 km WNW of Baghdad."_

_Perhaps any industrial chemists in the area should start looking for these in the tap water. This might have been released in the 1990's, and been filtering into the system for years, and only started showing effects in the mid 2000's, coincidentally after the Fallujah battle. _

Another view from same site
_Some years ago I was involved with a survey in Nepal to do with birth defects, as the Sherpa women drink water that is in most cases Glacier Melt off, now this has none of the nutriants and minerals that we get from our water. So there was a High incidence of cretinisem, and at the time it was common practice to throw any deformed children into the Dhude Kosi river but we had no base line to work from as we had no idea just how many deformed births there were before we arrived,so our findings were not much use so we gave mineral suppliments in the form of injections to as many women as possible who were of child bearing age and this seemed to work,_

And another soldier who makes a very salient point at the end


_" The problem of rate of change would require reliable stats from the local health organisations. These don't exist, so unless someone starts baselining data, it's all anecdotal and supposition. _

_The media are aware of Gulf War Syndrome, and Depleted Uranium, but are ignorant of the other environmental factors, and the impacts of decades of sanctions on public health in the run up to the last war. _

_What they have here is a story that might (or might not) be made up of parts of other stories. _
_DU *might* equal birth defects._
_(It probably does. There's lots of research that says so. But so do other things, alone or in combination with DU. DU is radioactive, but it's also a heavy metal. They are toxic in their own right.)_

_OR the story could be : _
_Birth defects up._
_Caused by: Chemicals, DU, other unknown factors_
_Aggravated by: sanctions and the collapse of public health services_
_and sanctions, and malnutrition amongst children in that time who are now reaching child bearing age. _

_But being media, they aren't qualified or interested enough to look beyond the juicy headline 'Filthy Capitalist USA Radioactive bullets kill babies'._

_Mind you- Once you identify the problem, there's still the next issue: Who clears it up. And- Who pays?_


If you want to know the website to read it for yourself PM me, I've necessarily had to leave out the link because soldiers while they are thoughtful aren't the most tactful, they tell things as it is and the language is ripe lol!


Please don't tell us we know nothing and are doing nothing.

The other point is that you make unsubstantiated allegations against the Forces such as killing, raping, burning and poisoning innocent people, I say.....prove it. Post specific proof of such acts that have been left untried by civilian courts or courts martial.


You would love it you say if soldiers turned round and refused to serve, thats fine there's no cost to you is there? You are asking people to make sacrifices while you stand on the sidelines clapping. Thats not clever and it's not fair. don't ask people to do something you won't do yourself. You aren't challenging cultural expectations here ,you are complaining about being misunderstood. You don't know what British cultural expectations are concerning the military and I'm not sure you actually know what Americans are either.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> You would love it you say if soldiers turned round  and refused to serve, thats fine there's no cost to you is there? You  are asking people to make sacrifices while you stand on the sidelines  clapping. Thats not clever and it's not fair.  Don't ask people to do  something you won't do yourself. You aren't challenging cultural  expectations here, you are complaining about being misunderstood. You  don't know what British cultural expectations are concerning the  military and I'm not sure you actually know what Americans are  either.



You say there is no cost to me...  Piffle.  I mortgage my childrens  future with these wars.  How many great people has my nation lost or  injured in this mess?  Where could we be be as a society if we used  people better?  We're all in this together.

You say I'm standing on the sidelines clapping and asking people to do  what I won't do...  Piffle.  Don't you realize that we are on the same  side?

Not everyone is ignorant, but a great many people are.  The average  person hardly spares a thought for it.  We've got bread and circuses  lined up as far as the eye can see...and the reality of the war is  deliberately hidden from the public.  

Times are changing though and people are starting to wake up.  The  sanitized version of reality is crumbling with every leaked document,  with every report of torture, with every coffin, and every missing  limb.  People are asking if it's all worth it and are arriving at some  very disturbing conclusions.

The cultural expectation that we support the unsupportable is breaking  down.  It's only a matter of time as more people join me every single  day.  As we begin to fully understand the prices we pay, people will  simply refuse to fight for this...because it's the right thing to do.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> You say there is no cost to me... Piffle. I mortgage my childrens future with these wars. How many great people has my nation lost or injured in this mess? Where could we be be as a society if we used people better? We're all in this together.
> 
> You say I'm standing on the sidelines clapping and asking people to do what I won't do... Piffle. Don't you realize that we are on the same side?
> 
> ...


 

Arrogance.



Ask yourself why people don't think about things like this if that's true, it's because they have to survive in a harch economic climate. Would you ask that a father with a dying child waiting for a transplant he can't afford think more of what is going on in a far country than of his own child? Would you ask a woman watching her husband go senile with Alzheimers to think, not of him but of what the countires soldiers are doing? Or a family facing eviction because there's no work? People are struggling to make ends meet, they are fighting to survive against job losses, homes being repossessed, increasing crime, higher cost of living. If your children have a future do you know how lucky they are? You have the luxury of having time to think, many don't, they work two, three jobs, look after children, they cope..just and you blame them for not caring about what is happening elsewhere? You have your head in the clouds, you may be an idealist but you don't see the reality. What the military is doing is the least of your problems. Yes, campaign for peace, get the troops home, use that money to make a better life for your people first.  

You say things are hidden and that nobody cares then you say its there to be seen and the people will rise up, you can't have it both ways. Your country like mine has homeless people, people in need, people struggling in poverty if you are so concerned for people don't rage at them for not caring, how can they, their cup is overflowing with want and need how can they see beyond that? People are worried about redundancies, paying for medical care, paying for education, paying to keep a roof over their heads and this isn't just the poor this is moving up the class structure. It's not that they don't care, they can't care.

In this country we have 500,000 people losing their jobs over the next five years from one sector alone. Up the road from me is Middlesborough, there used to be steel works and a chemical plant, there's nothing now, no jobs, no money, no hope. How can these people care about what is going on in a war so far away, they are just trying to survive themselves. We have lost manufacturing companies, we've lost big companies, Kraft took over one of our chocolate making firms and promptly made hundreds redundant. Competition from the Far East is fierce, they do it cheaper by using cheap labour often young children. The only company now that makes cars here is Japanese, how long will they stay? The country has a massive deficit, every single person in this country even those on benefits will have less money to spend on ever increasingly expensive commodities. Gas and coal prices have gone up, our petrol is over £1.20 a litre, diesel dearer which puts food prices up. I don't know if I will have a job in five years, we are losing 25,000 from our ministry. Don't you see that caring about people in other countries and what our troops do isn't as big an issue as you'd like? 

There's a saying 'fine words butter no parsnips', I don't know if you know what that means but when you say you are mortgaging your children's future it's fine rhetoric, it sounds grand when you say it to yourself but the rest of us are just trying to get through the days to see if we have enough to live on now.

There is no cultural expectation from Americans or the British about our forces, they are a sideline in most peoples live's, we are too busy running to try and stand still to worry about things bigger than us. If there's an economic upturn and people feel secure then our minds can afford to turn to things other than making sure we have a roof over our heads and food on our tables for our children to eat. 


Good try but you sound like a Guardian reading do gooder who means well, the road to hell however is paved with good intentions.


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## CanuckMA (Oct 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I fancied going to Disney Paris but have no kids to take and would feel daft going without at least one ankle biter.


 

I hear you can rent one at the door.


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