# Does Steven Seagal still teach Aikido?



## moonhill99

I know Steven Seagal was teaching Aikido the aggressive type of Aikido not sure what it is called.

Steven Seagal is from Lansing, Michigan and now living in Los Angeles. So I guess he has a dojo in Lansing and Los Angeles. Not sure what it is called or where his school is at or any web sites or videos on his schools.

But how do people like Steven Seagal teaching of Aikido? Is it too rough and gritty like? 

Would Steven Seagal Aikido be more rough and gritty like Aikijujutsu and ninjutsu wrist locks and take downs?

Have people seen any youtube clips on how his schools is like? How they teach? The good and bad? Too aggressive type of Aikido or too mixed.


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## hussaf

No, not really.  At least not teaching at a regular dojo

He abandoned his organization and its run by others for the most part.

He was teaching some aikido in Russia, it was hard to watch.  He looked terrible.

Google "Steven Seagal aikido" and you will find all you need to know


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## Jenna

moonhill99 said:


> I know Steven Seagal was teaching Aikido the aggressive type of Aikido not sure what it is called.
> 
> Steven Seagal is from Lansing, Michigan and now living in Los Angeles. So I guess he has a dojo in Lansing and Los Angeles. Not sure what it is called or where his school is at or any web sites or videos on his schools.
> 
> But how do people like Steven Seagal teaching of Aikido? Is it too rough and gritty like?
> 
> Would Steven Seagal Aikido be more rough and gritty like Aikijujutsu and ninjutsu wrist locks and take downs?
> 
> Have people seen any youtube clips on how his schools is like? How they teach? The good and bad? Too aggressive type of Aikido or too mixed.


The Aikido Seagal passed on was utilitarian and purposeful rather than gritty like?? - I do not know how you mean this term??  At the time it was engineered to work in real life perhaps faster than had been normal for then - but then which Aikido is not designed this way nowadays?  Which Aikido do you not like?? Jx


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## Xue Sheng

moonhill99 said:


> I know Steven Seagal was teaching Aikido the aggressive type of Aikido not sure what it is called.
> 
> Steven Seagal is from Lansing, Michigan and now living in Los Angeles. So I guess he has a dojo in Lansing and Los Angeles. Not sure what it is called or where his school is at or any web sites or videos on his schools.
> 
> But how do people like Steven Seagal teaching of Aikido? Is it too rough and gritty like?
> 
> Would Steven Seagal Aikido be more rough and gritty like Aikijujutsu and ninjutsu wrist locks and take downs?
> 
> Have people seen any youtube clips on how his schools is like? How they teach? The good and bad? Too aggressive type of Aikido or too mixed.



There was a poster here that trained this flavor of Aikido, hopefully they will see this and answer your questions


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## tshadowchaser

Years ago when I was working on the ambulance my partner was an Aikido practitioner whom had the pleasure of having Mr. Seagal instruct at his academy a few times. My friend said it was a harder version of what he did  with some strikes thrown in as you would in a street situation.  He loved the instruction.  
We drove by the old studio in LA a couple of times but where on runs and could not stop as my boss would not allow us off the clock that long and we where based in Garden Grove


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## Spinedoc

Steven Seagal's Aikido is Aikikai Aikido. He is still affiliated with Hombu, and has never broken from the Aikikai. His aikido, some call Tenshin Aikido, is NOT a separate style. It's maybe a little flashier, but it's the same exact techniques that you will learn at any Aikido dojo. Here's a great discussion about this.

Tenshin Aikido What is the truth


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## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> Steven Seagal's Aikido is Aikikai Aikido. He is still affiliated with Hombu, and has never broken from the Aikikai. His aikido, some call Tenshin Aikido, is NOT a separate style. It's maybe a little flashier, but it's the same exact techniques that you will learn at any Aikido dojo. Here's a great discussion about this.
> 
> Tenshin Aikido What is the truth



From what I read Steven Seagal's is too rough and teaching rough type of aikido.

Many people say when he got into Hollywood he changed and got more rough.


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## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> From what I read Steven Seagal's is too rough and teaching rough type of aikido.
> 
> Many people say when he got into Hollywood he changed and got more rough.



He's hard on his _uke_, that's for sure, but it's aikikai aikido.


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## moonhill99

Jenna said:


> The Aikido Seagal passed on was utilitarian and purposeful rather than gritty like?? - I do not know how you mean this term??  At the time it was engineered to work in real life perhaps faster than had been normal for then - but then which Aikido is not designed this way nowadays?  Which Aikido do you not like?? Jx



Aikido is a soft art the goal of Aikido is to get the attacker on the ground. The striking they do is more blocking or setting up for a wrist grab.

May be why people are saying Steven Seagal's is putting in more striking and too rough.


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## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> Aikido is a soft art the goal of Aikido is to get the attacker on the ground. The striking they do is more blocking or setting up for a wrist grab.
> 
> May be why people are saying Steven Seagal's is putting in more striking and too rough.



People who say this either haven't really looked, haven't really seen, or haven't really experienced aikido.



> _Atemi_ accounts for 99% of Aikido.-Morihei Ueshiba, founder of aikido.


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## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> Aikido is a soft art the goal of Aikido is to get the attacker on the ground. The striking they do is more blocking or setting up for a wrist grab.
> 
> May be why people are saying Steven Seagal's is putting in more striking and too rough.




No, it's not. The striking is often complimentary. We use strikes to maintain maai, distract our opponent, unbalance them, and to provide openings for other techniques. Seagal doesn't teach any more striking than other Aikido, his movies may show more flash, but they're movies, not reality. He's not really any rougher than other Aikikai shihan like Tissier.

As Elder noted, he's hard on his uke, but again, Steven Seagal does not practice or teach a separate style of Aikido.

Mike


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## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> From what I read Steven Seagal's is too rough and teaching rough type of aikido.
> 
> Many people say when he got into Hollywood he changed and got more rough.


One of my Aikido training partners spent several years training under Steven Seagal. It was tough training.

I don't know where you get the understanding that Aikido is not rough. It is designed to take on the same bad guys that you would train for with any other martial art. It utilises punches, kicks and knees the same as the others and believe me, the strikes are devastating.


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## Spinedoc

I would also state that the goal of Aikido is not to simply "get the attacker on the ground". The goal is to neutralize the threat. Often, this is to the ground, but not always. Remember, Aikido ALWAYS assumes multiple attackers.....Sankyo can be used to not only neutralize one opponent, but you can actually use him as a shield too...


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## moonhill99

The critics of Steven Seagal his he is too rough and when he got into the movie business he gone to the dark side and that not what Aikido is about.

You hear talk and phrase of Aikido is harmony.

*Aikido, "The Way of Harmony." A martial art. Sound inconsistent? Not at all. Aikido is a non-violent discipline which develops harmony of movement and a high degree of concordance among the mind, the spirit and the body. *

Aikido the Way of Harmony

*he essence of O'Sensei's art lies in its ability to resolve conflict without bringing harm to oneself or one's attacker. "The Way of Harmony" or Aikido was officially recognized in 1942 and there are currently dojos, or practice halls, throughout the world.*


Aikido O Sensei s Vision of a Non-Violent Self Defense Refine Your Power and Develop Leadership Skills at Two Cranes Aikido

_There is no enemy in the true martial way (budo). True budo is a work of love. It is not killing or fighting; it is a work of creation and growth which gives life to and nurtures all things. Love is the
guardian deity of everything. Nothing can exist without it. Aikido is the realization of love.*" Morihei Ueshiba, Founder of Aikido*_



_*O Sensei's genius was to discover that applied nonviolence, stopping the fight with a unified body mind and spirit, is one of the most potent weapons human beings possess.*_


*Aikido is a martial art and movement meditation created in the 20th century by Morihei Ueshiba,
O Sensei (1883-1969). His creation is Aikido, a defensive art form and a practice of mental and spiritual development rooted in the ancient Bushido tradition of Japan. Through training, practitioners cultivate self-awareness and resiliency, a powerful center and a calm spirit*

*Known worldwide as the Art of Peace, Aikido invites us to recognize the power of applied nonviolence as a way to foster peace in the world.*

Aikido Sydney City - Martial Arts Sydney City Aikido Art of Peace - Non-violent Kids Adults Self Defense What is Aikido 

*The Japanese martial art of Aikido (pronounced “eye-key-doe”) is a beautiful and dynamic form of moving meditation and non-violent self-defence. It is often called ‘The Art of Peace’ due to its philosophy of non-violence. Aikido teaches us how to respond to aggression with compassion, and how to resolve conflict in positive ways. There are no offensive movements, no losers or competitions, and no-one is harmed. Aikido is about polishing our spirit and improving ourselves from within, about developing awareness and care for each other, and for our environment.*











Japanese jiu jitsu also known as gentle art.

I think Aikijujutsu has more striking.


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## moonhill99

Aikijujutsu












I have not seen Aikido done in way like those videos of Aikijujutsu.

Sure I'm not sure where those phrase and talk harmony, soft hard,gentle art, love and peace than come from.

Unless like the above poster saying *use striking to maintain maai, distract our opponent, unbalance them, and to provide openings for other techniques*

not striking in way other arts use striking.

And I don't see any striking when the attacker is on the ground like I do in Aikijujutsu or some jujutsu schools. But they do have ways of putting the attacker in pins and holds on the ground if they want to.


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## elder999

And Bruce Lee didn't grapple....






_"Did you see it?"_

Perhaps the most important words in Japanese martial arts, because it's always there for those who have eyes to see it, but for others......_it's just *not* there_....


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## elder999

Did you see it?\


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## Hyoho

I see a very nice artistic side to softer Aikido which to me is what its all about. It's practice. an art form. The harder you come in the harder they will go down. In most I can clearly see a deliberate stopping movement particularly in defense against weapons. In reality a sword cut stops a centimeter off the floor, not with outstretched arms in a 'please grab this' action. Its a wonderful art. Even the best sword techniques are defensive taking advantage of a committed attack.


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## Jenna

moonhill99 said:


> Aikido is a soft art the goal of Aikido is to get the attacker on the ground. The striking they do is more blocking or setting up for a wrist grab.
> 
> May be why people are saying Steven Seagal's is putting in more striking and too rough.


I think I know what you are imagining yes.. I would say if there is a chance for you to go try this for your self, that would be a useful learning to see if this style is for you.  It is difficult or impossible to grade how a particular style can ever suit your personal MA needs by theorising over it here.

Does not stop people trying though lol.  

Hey good luck with your endeavours, Jx


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## ST1Doppelganger

I've been studying Tenshin Aikido (Seagals Ideology or method of aikido) for almost a year now. 

From my observations and experiences in the Tenshin style it differs from the more traditional aikido by being more compact and angular compared to some of the more traditional aikido schools. 

Tenshin also has a couple extra deflections that the traditional schools dont seem to have as well. 

Take note im a noob in aikido with a CMA background and these are just my personal observations of the differences that i see between the more traditional ideology and the Tenshin ideology. 

Im also glad i found a Tenshin school since I enjoy training in it and it does greatly compliment my previous martial arts background.


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## Argus

Hyoho said:


> I see a very nice artistic side to softer Aikido which to me is what its all about. It's practice. an art form. The harder you come in the harder they will go down. In most I can clearly see a deliberate stopping movement particularly in defense against weapons. In reality a sword cut stops a centimeter off the floor, not with outstretched arms in a 'please grab this' action. Its a wonderful art. Even the best sword techniques are defensive taking advantage of a committed attack.



Only an untrained buffel swings a sword like that. In fact, whether in European or Japanese sword arts, strikes are linear in nature and end with the sword in front of the body, generally with the point facing the opponent. Why cut to the ground and leave yourself completely exposed to an after-blow? 

Of course, these are generalizations, and technique varies from art to art, and technique to technique. But generally, swords are used in a delicate and intelligent manner. No need to swing them around like clubs; they're plenty sharp enough on their own.


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## elder999

Argus said:


> Only an untrained buffel swings a sword like that. In fact, whether in European or Japanese sword arts, strikes are linear in nature and end with the sword in front of the body, generally with the point facing the opponent. Why cut to the ground and leave yourself completely exposed to an after-blow?
> 
> Of course, these are generalizations, and technique varies from art to art, and technique to technique. But generally, swords are used in a delicate and intelligent manner. No need to swing them around like clubs; they're plenty sharp enough on their own.


Oh my....


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## Dirty Dog

Argus said:


> Only an untrained buffel swings a sword like that. In fact, whether in European or Japanese sword arts, strikes are linear in nature and end with the sword in front of the body, generally with the point facing the opponent. Why cut to the ground and leave yourself completely exposed to an after-blow?
> 
> Of course, these are generalizations, and technique varies from art to art, and technique to technique. But generally, swords are used in a delicate and intelligent manner. No need to swing them around like clubs; they're plenty sharp enough on their own.



Do you have any training or experience with either European or Japanese sword arts?


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## elder999

Dirty Dog said:


> Do you have any training or experience with either European or Japanese sword arts?



I was thinking more  along the lines of, _Do you have *any* idea who it is you're talking to?_


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## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> And Bruce Lee didn't grapple....



elder999 there is nothing wrong with some one taking Aikido with other martial art. But when person fights it would be MMA style not Aikido. The person may use some Aikido moves now and than with what ever other martial arts he or her is taking.

And I'm sure Bruce Lee did take many martial arts and knew many throws and wrist locks.

No one is saying there is no striking in aikido.

Like other members here are saying there are striking use for maintain maai, distract our opponent, unbalance them, and to provide openings for other techniques so on.

But keep in mind the philosophy of aikido is self defense using little of force needed.

It you can get the attacker on the ground and run away good. If the attacker is taken to ground and still comes after you than you may have to strike and take him to the ground again.

Even Japanese jiu jitsu that was for battlefield had limited striking because of use of body armor.

Some critics of Steven Seagal or at least in movies say he is too violent and that not the philosophy of aikido.

Now sure some aikido schools may put in more striking than others.

But really if the person is looking for striking and bit more rough style Aikijujutsu and ninjutsu may be better way to go.  There are may throws and wrist locks in Aikijujutsu and ninjut and more striking and rough. If the person wants throws and wrist locks.

*I think I know what you are imagining yes.. I would say if there is a chance for you to go try this for your self, that would be a useful learning to see if this style is for you. It is difficult or impossible to grade how a particular style can ever suit your personal MA needs by theorising over it here.*

Yes when I mean aikido and old classic Japanese jiu jitsu, western modern jiu jitsu being mostly 90% throws,wrist locks, take downs and 10% striking.

My idea of more striking and rough is like this video.

‪Krav Maga‬  jiu jitsu





Or 





Or 







I think my self and others that want more striking and it being  more rough hapkido, Aikijujutsu, ninjutsu,‪ Krav Maga‬  jiu jitsu may be better way to go.

And aikido being more soft and jiu jitsu normily dependance on the school where some can be soft or in the middle.


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## moonhill99

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I've been studying Tenshin Aikido (Seagals Ideology or method of aikido) for almost a year now.
> 
> From my observations and experiences in the Tenshin style it differs from the more traditional aikido by being more compact and angular compared to some of the more traditional aikido schools.
> 
> Tenshin also has a couple extra deflections that the traditional schools dont seem to have as well.
> 
> Take note im a noob in aikido with a CMA background and these are just my personal observations of the differences that i see between the more traditional ideology and the Tenshin ideology.
> 
> Im also glad i found a Tenshin school since I enjoy training in it and it does greatly compliment my previous martial arts background.



What I did know or at least the critics that well may hate him or just say lies is he was teaching a more aggressive aikido.


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## ST1Doppelganger

moonhill99 said:


> What I did know or at least the critics that well may hate him or just say lies is he was teaching a more aggressive aikido.



I'd agree that the way my dojo does aikido is a bit more aggressive then some other aikido dojos but there's other styles of aikido out there that apply aikido  just as aggressive as we do.


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## tshadowchaser

moonhill99 said:


> But keep in mind the philosophy of aikido is self defense using little of force needed.


yes that is what is taught now but the original Aikido was much more violent and brutal  only evolving to this softer art we see in most schools over a period of many years.


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## Argus

Dirty Dog said:


> Do you have any training or experience with either European or Japanese sword arts?



In German Longsword, yes. I'll give you that Lichtenauer is a bit unique, and that I'm somewhat ignorant of Japanese Sword Arts, but I'm not completely unfamiliar with them, and I do not see everyone cutting to the ground. Sorry, but I'd like an explanation here.

I'm sure Hyoho is an experienced Martial Artist. But, that doesn't mean everyone should simply defer to his opinion when he makes sweeping statements regarding all swordsmen without questioning him on it.

Now, I realize I made a few potentially sweeping statements myself (regarding strikes in JSA), though I thought I had qualified them well enough. But if someone knows better, he can just correct me.

And, you fellows shouldn't assume that someone isn't "qualified" to ask such questions. My goal here is to learn. So, for my part, I'll say things as I see them, ask questions about what I don't understand, and defer to anyone who instructs me better. Unless you have something to contribute, it would be better if you didn't make fun of anyone for questioning someone else simply because you view the latter individual as more authoritative.


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## Xue Sheng

Argus said:


> In German Longsword, yes. I'll give you that Lichtenauer is a bit unique, and that I'm somewhat ignorant of Japanese Sword Arts, but I'm not completely unfamiliar with them, and I do not see everyone cutting to the ground. Sorry, but I'd like an explanation here.
> 
> I'm sure Hyoho is an experienced Martial Artist. But, that doesn't mean everyone should simply defer to his opinion when he makes sweeping statements regarding all swordsmen without questioning him on it.
> 
> Now, I realize I made a few potentially sweeping statements myself (regarding strikes in JSA), though I thought I had qualified them well enough. But if someone knows better, he can just correct me.
> 
> And, you fellows shouldn't assume that someone isn't "qualified" to ask such questions. My goal here is to learn. So, for my part, I'll say things as I see them, ask questions about what I don't understand, and defer to anyone who instructs me better. Unless you have something to contribute, it would be better if you didn't make fun of anyone for questioning someone else simply because you view the latter individual as more authoritative.



It might also help if one does not start a response like this too



Argus said:


> Only an untrained buffel swings a sword like that.



By the way, what is a buffel?


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## Argus

> Xue

Eh, you're right. I should apologize for that. I didn't take note that the poster had prior training in sword arts, so I thought he was just freely speculating. As such, I didn't intend to direct that comment at him personally or his training.

A "Buffel," or "Buffalo" is the term used in German fencing -- or, at least in Lichtenauer's tradition, to indicate an untrained person who swings wide and to the ground, and telegraphs his strike; things we're repeatedly warned not to do, and shown how to take advantage of in various plays.


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## Dirty Dog

Argus said:


> In German Longsword, yes. I'll give you that Lichtenauer is a bit unique, and that I'm somewhat ignorant of Japanese Sword Arts, but I'm not completely unfamiliar with them, and I do not see everyone cutting to the ground. Sorry, but I'd like an explanation here.
> 
> I'm sure Hyoho is an experienced Martial Artist. But, that doesn't mean everyone should simply defer to his opinion when he makes sweeping statements regarding all swordsmen without questioning him on it.
> 
> Now, I realize I made a few potentially sweeping statements myself (regarding strikes in JSA), though I thought I had qualified them well enough. But if someone knows better, he can just correct me.
> 
> And, you fellows shouldn't assume that someone isn't "qualified" to ask such questions. My goal here is to learn. So, for my part, I'll say things as I see them, ask questions about what I don't understand, and defer to anyone who instructs me better. Unless you have something to contribute, it would be better if you didn't make fun of anyone for questioning someone else simply because you view the latter individual as more authoritative.



Your questions didn't garner the responses that seems to be bothering you. Your unfounded, overgeneralized sweeping statements (such as you criticize in this post) did.
You don't need any qualifications to ask questions. 
It does help to have some if you're going to make statements such as "Only an untrained buffel swings a sword like that. In fact, whether in European or Japanese sword arts, strikes are linear in nature and end with the sword in front of the body, generally with the point facing the opponent. Why cut to the ground and leave yourself completely exposed to an after-blow?" because the statements are what are technically called "wrong".

A European longsword with a straight blade is simply NOT used the same way as a Japanese longsword with a curved blade. And that's ignoring other European straight bladed weapons such as the rapier. Or the Gladius.


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## Argus

Good lord. I'm not going to walk on eggshells. Nor do I expect others to. I was simply trying to inform someone who I mistakenly assumed to be uninformed on the general nature of using a sword -- though I am still interested to hear what he has to say on the subject.

Did I not just address every one of those criticisms and freely admit that I made false assumptions and sweeping statements before you pointed them out?

And, I understand that a longsword and a japanese sword are not going to be used in the same manner. But I do see a lot of similarities between the two, and I think even Hyoho might agree. I'm interested to hear him bring up specific points on how they differ and why, and learn what it is he's talking about in regard to the nature of cuts in Japanese Sword Arts.

Also, I don't see how the use of the rapier or gladius contradicts any of my statements. Perhaps you could argue that for the saber or dussack. But, by and large, most weapons shared the same basic methodology in medieval, european fencing. (And no, that's not a sweeping statement -- or at least, not one that can't be backed up sufficiently.)


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## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> elder999 there is nothing wrong with some one taking Aikido with other martial art. But when person fights it would be MMA style not Aikido. The person may use some Aikido moves now and than with what ever other martial arts he or her is taking.


As Chris would say, grab a cup of coffee. This might take some time. 

What is MMA style? I would suggest that MMA training equips the person to be competitive in all areas of competition. That is totally different to a person trained in Aikido and another style, say Karate. What are Aikido moves? A lot of what you see practised in Aikido are methods of training with a competent partner who has trained ukemi. That is totally different to what you would see in a real fight. Possibly the same could be said of Karate where a lot of the kihon (basics) is totally different to what you would see in a real fight.

Let's look at what you said ... "there is nothing wrong with some one taking Aikido with other martial art."  Now, do you mean that Aikido is supplementing the other art or are you suggesting that the two arts are so dissimilar that you could possibly use either one alone?

Personally, I began Aikido to enable me to better understand and implement the techniques that are already in traditional Karate. As a result, if I was fighting it would be almost exclusively Karate. There aren't many techniques in Aikido that aren't already in Karate. If I could fight using just the skills of Aikido, could you tell the difference? Many of the strikes and punches of traditional Karate are in Aikido also, just you don't see them in normal training. 

I think you have a preconceived idea of what you think Aikido should be and you are way off the mark of what good Aikido actually can be.



moonhill99 said:


> No one is saying there is no striking in aikido.


Good, because they would be totally wrong.



moonhill99 said:


> Like other members here are saying there are striking use for maintain maai, distract our opponent, unbalance them, and to provide openings for other techniques so on.


Mmm! I think you are repeating what I heard in one of the videos you posted. 

Punches in Aikido are punches. If they succeed your opponent is hurt. If the punch is unsuccessful there is often the opportunity to move seamlessly into a technique that results in a lock, hold or takedown. Many of the techniques in Aikido provide the opportunity to strike. Just because we don't put them into effect doesn't mean they can't be extremely effective if you want to take the fight to a higher level.



moonhill99 said:


> But keep in mind the philosophy of aikido is self defense using little of force needed.


Mmm! Totally wrong. Most Aikido has nothing to do with self defence. Perhaps you could read some of the self defence threads if you don't understand what I am referring to.



moonhill99 said:


> It you can get the attacker on the ground and run away good. If the attacker is taken to ground and still comes after you than you may have to strike and take him to the ground again.


If you have taken the attacker to the ground, and have control, you have options. Almost all the techniques for taking your opponent to the ground have the option to cause joint destruction or to kick or punch. Why would you just let someone go if you thought they might attack you again?



moonhill99 said:


> Even Japanese jiu jitsu that was for battlefield had limited striking because of use of body armor.


I think I'll leave that one for Chris. He has far more understanding of battlefield tactics than me.



moonhill99 said:


> Some critics of Steven Seagal or at least in movies say he is too violent and that not the philosophy of aikido.


So  Aikido is meant to be some wussy thing that doesn't hurt people? Steven Seagal has his critics for many reasons but his making Aikido effective on the street is not one of them. Forget the movies. They are there to entertain. 



moonhill99 said:


> Now sure some aikido schools may put in more striking than others.
> 
> But really if the person is looking for striking and bit more rough style Aikijujutsu and ninjutsu may be better way to go.  There are may throws and wrist locks in Aikijujutsu and ninjut and more striking and rough. If the person wants throws and wrist locks.


Again total misconception. A good Aikido school has everything that is needed, just that it isn't trained the way you think it should be trained. As to your reference to Ninjutsu ... way off the mark. That is a completely different set of arts.



moonhill99 said:


> Yes when I mean aikido and old classic Japanese jiu jitsu, western modern jiu jitsu being mostly 90% throws,wrist locks, take downs and 10% striking.


I won't bother arguing but I would suggest these figures have been pulled out of a hat.



moonhill99 said:


> My idea of more striking and rough is like this video.
> 
> ‪Krav Maga‬  jiu jitsu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think my self and others that want more striking and it being  more rough hapkido, Aikijujutsu, ninjutsu,‪ Krav Maga‬  jiu jitsu may be better way to go.


These are just demonstrations. Hapkido and Aikido are very similar, depending on how they are taught, and are both descended from Aikijutsu.  Ninjutsu and Krav are totally different.



moonhill99 said:


> And aikido being more soft and jiu jitsu normily dependance on the school where some can be soft or in the middle.


This sentence doesn't make sense to me.


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## moonhill99

* As Chris would say, grab a cup of coffee. This might take some time. 

What is MMA style? I would suggest that MMA training equips the person to be competitive in all areas of competition. That is totally different to a person trained in Aikido and another style, say Karate. What are Aikido moves? A lot of what you see practised in Aikido are methods of training with a competent partner who has trained ukemi. That is totally different to what you would see in a real fight. Possibly the same could be said of Karate where a lot of the kihon (basics) is totally different to what you would see in a real fight.

Let's look at what you said ... "there is nothing wrong with some one taking Aikido with other martial art." Now, do you mean that Aikido is supplementing the other art or are you suggesting that the two arts are so dissimilar that you could possibly use either one alone?*

No what I was saying if you took Aikido and some other art and fighting in a  cage, MMA or on the streets it would not be Aikido. Well you may use some Aikido moves now and then it would be mixed art fighting style.


*Personally, I began Aikido to enable me to better understand and implement the techniques that are already in traditional Karate. As a result, if I was fighting it would be almost exclusively Karate. There aren't many techniques in Aikido that aren't already in Karate. If I could fight using just the skills of Aikido, could you tell the difference? Many of the strikes and punches of traditional Karate are in Aikido also, just you don't see them in normal training.*

Okay I  hardly see much striking in Aikido. The typical videos the attacker comes to strike and he gets taken down the ground. Some times they may hold the attacker on the ground.  Well it true may be they are trying to do take downs and wrist locks moves and taking video of it and posting it. And when they are learning how to strike they are not taking video of it.

And any video of it bit more striking and rough like the real aikido videos people say it too gritty and that not what Aikido is about.

*I think you have a preconceived idea of what you think Aikido should be and you are way off the mark of what good Aikido actually can be.*

I respect what Aikido is and well I'm sure it is fun to learn a lot of those moves but in real street fight it would be more rough and gritty not so nice.  

* Mmm! Totally wrong. Most Aikido has nothing to do with self defence. Perhaps you could read some of the self defence threads if you don't understand what I am referring to.*

I'm not sure on history what it was like before but any thing I read on the internet even the message board - AikiWeb Aikido Forums is Aikido is non violent art it not used to fight.

It is not used to fight. I don't know where some members here have not come across keywords on internet like soft art, harmony, love and peace art and self defense.  If Aikido is a violent aggressive art than people at .aikiweb.com , martial arts instructors posting on their web site teaching aikido are wrong, posts are wrong and people are not uploading the violent aggressive videos on youtube.

If you mean you learn striking skills in aikido but don't train to use it on the attacker in class but out side of the class you can use it than may be you have point.

I would love for clarification where these keywords like soft art, harmony, love and peace and gentile art come from than? Or is some one posting wrong information on the internet and now it spreading like wiled fire and now everyone is getting wrong info?

Is it possible in past Aikido was more rough and now they changed it like you say it softer?

*If you have taken the attacker to the ground, and have control, you have options. Almost all the techniques for taking your opponent to the ground have the option to cause joint destruction or to kick or punch. Why would you just let someone go if you thought they might attack you again?*

So why is it most of videos I see the attacker go to the ground and  they step back? Some times they may hold attacker on the ground.

Many people are criticizing the new aikido called real aikido being too rough.

*So Aikido is meant to be some wussy thing that doesn't hurt people? Steven Seagal has his critics for many reasons but his making Aikido effective on the street is not one of them. Forget the movies. They are there to entertain.*

From what I read you use little force than needed.

Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?
Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

*His movies conveys violent messages and is totally the opposite of what O-sensei or Aikido is teaching.*

*Even if 'it is just a movie'. If he were a true aikidoka, he could have made movies which shows how aikido can control a villian through non-violent means, and not just go, "Its time to die", and crack goes the neck.*

*I have friends whose only knowledge of Aikido is Steven Seagal, and they think Aikido is a deadly violent art which is totally the opposite of what it is.*

Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka - AikiWeb Aikido Forums


*No matter what, Steven Seagal has contributed largely in making Aikido so famous. The guy is 7th dan after all. Of course the ones looking for a deadly art get quickly disappointed and leave soon. Some others completely misunderstand it too and try to make it a religion of peace and love *


*First, I would agree with those who have pointed out that, whether what they are seeking is really there, or not, many students first show up at an Aikido dojo because of Seagal Sensei's films. So he is doing, in a certain way, a service by spreading the word that Aikido exists.*

Aikido Kotokai Texas

*Aikido is performed by blending with the motion of the attacker and redirecting the force of the attack rather than opposing it head-on. This requires very little physical energy, as the aikido practitioner "leads" the attacker's momentum using entering and turning movements. The techniques are completed with various throws or joint locks. Aikido can be categorized under the general umbrella of grappling arts. Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu. The founder early students' documents bear the term aiki-jūjutsu. Many of the founder senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with broad ranges of interpretation and emphasis.*

Aikido Plano Dojo Martial Arts - About Aikido Instructor


*Aikido is the martial way of harmonizing with the aggression of an attackers energy.  Aikido blends with and uses that energy against the attacker. It is one of the few martial arts in which the training eventually builds to deal with the threat of multiple attackers; a situation very different from those found in modern competitive martial arts.*

*Aikido is a disciplined study of the self, conflict, self defense, self preservation, aggression, combat and its resolution.*

*In addition to Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, O sensei (M. Ueshiba) also studied the following:*

Plano Aikido Center

*Aikido is a martial art that emphasizes more than fighting skill. Rather, it seeks to blend with, control and then dissipate the hostile energy of one or more attackers. Focusing on method rather than strength, Aikido is particularly suited to women, children and the elderly. Explore a way of life committed to peace and harmony, personal improvement and self defense.
You are welcome to watch our classes or try for a week for free, no commitment. Just come with comfortable sport pants and a long sleeved shirt. One of our seasoned members will assist you during your practice. We will make sure that you feel comfortable among us.*

*  As to your reference to Ninjutsu ... way off the mark. That is a completely different set of arts.*

So where are these claims coming from soft art, love and peace and harmony? I thought Buddhism are anti- violence? If you attack them they would use it in defense way with little to no striking?

If you tried to attack Morihei Ueshiba would he just take you to the ground and hold you down? Or would he be bit rough on you may be give kick or two?

From what I read Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.

 He become very religious and into peace thing.

If you are really into Buddhism than your martial arts should be soft.

*I won't bother arguing but I would suggest these figures have been pulled out of a hat.*

So the way they train Aikido is non-violent self-defence love and pence thing but the practitioner can choose to use more striking and be more rough out side the class? But in the class they teach striking but not practice when the attacker comes after you in class to strike?

*These are just demonstrations. Hapkido and Aikido are very similar, depending on how they are taught, and are both descended from Aikijutsu. Ninjutsu and Krav are totally different.*

So why does Aikido demonstrations ,promote videos or training is so soft compared to this level of being rough.

And yes most of the videos I see it seems the attacker goes for strike and they use throw,take down, wrist lock or hold. I don't see them take them to the ground and than use one or two strikes when they are on the ground.

Unless they teach striking but you don't use striking when a attacker goes after you.

Or may be in Japan they more into striking than the US.  Or Aikido is changed and not what it was like before.


----------



## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> No what I was saying if you took Aikido and some other art and fighting in a  cage, MMA or on the streets it would not be Aikido. Well you may use some Aikido moves now and then it would be mixed art fighting style.
> 
> *Well, no, not exactly, it would still be Aikido. What will happen is that it may not look like Aikido that we see in demonstrations or in practice. I've seen it used once in a real fight, and at the time, had no idea what the guy did. At a bar, a guy swung once, the aikidoka ducked and backed up with his hands up and then the guy tried to swing again, and I saw him (the attacker) fly into the wall hitting his back on the wall and landing on his head…Now, I know that it was a kaitenage that was executed at a very fast speed……Aikido is still aikido in a real fight, but it may look a little ugly. *
> 
> *Personally, I began Aikido to enable me to better understand and implement the techniques that are already in traditional Karate. As a result, if I was fighting it would be almost exclusively Karate. There aren't many techniques in Aikido that aren't already in Karate. If I could fight using just the skills of Aikido, could you tell the difference? Many of the strikes and punches of traditional Karate are in Aikido also, just you don't see them in normal training.*
> 
> Okay I  hardly see much striking in Aikido. The typical videos the attacker comes to strike and he gets taken down the ground. Some times they may hold the attacker on the ground.  Well it true may be they are trying to do take downs and wrist locks moves and taking video of it and posting it. And when they are learning how to strike they are not taking video of it.
> 
> And any video of it bit more striking and rough like the real aikido videos people say it too gritty and that not what Aikido is about.
> 
> *Well, Aikido is about harmony and not harming the attacker. It's about defusing a situation, and neutralizing while gaining control of an attacker. Most of all…it's about balance….and in way more ways than you think. *
> 
> *I think you have a preconceived idea of what you think Aikido should be and you are way off the mark of what good Aikido actually can be.*
> 
> I respect what Aikido is and well I'm sure it is fun to learn a lot of those moves but in real street fight it would be more rough and gritty not so nice.
> 
> *Of course it would, no one is saying it wouldn't. *
> 
> * Mmm! Totally wrong. Most Aikido has nothing to do with self defence. Perhaps you could read some of the self defence threads if you don't understand what I am referring to.*
> 
> I'm not sure on history what it was like before but any thing I read on the internet even the message board - AikiWeb Aikido Forums is Aikido is non violent art it not used to fight.
> 
> It is not used to fight. I don't know where some members here have not come across keywords on internet like soft art, harmony, love and peace art and self defense.  If Aikido is a violent aggressive art than people at .aikiweb.com , martial arts instructors posting on their web site teaching aikido are wrong, posts are wrong and people are not uploading the violent aggressive videos on youtube.
> 
> If you mean you learn striking skills in aikido but don't train to use it on the attacker in class but out side of the class you can use it than may be you have point.
> 
> I would love for clarification where these keywords like soft art, harmony, love and peace and gentile art come from than? Or is some one posting wrong information on the internet and now it spreading like wiled fire and now everyone is getting wrong info?
> 
> Is it possible in past Aikido was more rough and now they changed it like you say it softer?
> 
> *Do you think martial arts are solely about fighting? I get the sense that you do, and that might reflect some of the disconnect here. Additionally, you have to take into context Japanese culture. *
> 
> *If you have taken the attacker to the ground, and have control, you have options. Almost all the techniques for taking your opponent to the ground have the option to cause joint destruction or to kick or punch. Why would you just let someone go if you thought they might attack you again?*
> 
> So why is it most of videos I see the attacker go to the ground and  they step back? Some times they may hold attacker on the ground.
> 
> *One of the reasons that Aikido is often used by police, bouncers, or bodyguard types, is that you can defuse a violent situation, restrain someone, and not try to harm them. Aikido strives to not hurt the attacker (not that you won't cause pain…more on that later) and not try to kill or permanently injure them. I'm not sure which videos you watch, but we practice pins and submissions all the time. They aren't perfect and one of my classmates has perfected rolling out of the kotegaeshi pin, so I simply slam my knee into his kidney and it keeps him from rolling. *
> 
> Many people are criticizing the new aikido called real aikido being too rough.
> 
> *So Aikido is meant to be some wussy thing that doesn't hurt people? Steven Seagal has his critics for many reasons but his making Aikido effective on the street is not one of them. Forget the movies. They are there to entertain.*
> 
> From what I read you use little force than needed.
> 
> *Of course, why would you expend more energy than you need?*
> 
> Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?
> Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka - AikiWeb Aikido Forums
> 
> *His movies conveys violent messages and is totally the opposite of what O-sensei or Aikido is teaching.*
> 
> *Even if 'it is just a movie'. If he were a true aikidoka, he could have made movies which shows how aikido can control a villian through non-violent means, and not just go, "Its time to die", and crack goes the neck.*
> 
> *I have friends whose only knowledge of Aikido is Steven Seagal, and they think Aikido is a deadly violent art which is totally the opposite of what it is.*
> 
> Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka - AikiWeb Aikido Forums
> 
> 
> *No matter what, Steven Seagal has contributed largely in making Aikido so famous. The guy is 7th dan after all. Of course the ones looking for a deadly art get quickly disappointed and leave soon. Some others completely misunderstand it too and try to make it a religion of peace and love *
> 
> 
> *First, I would agree with those who have pointed out that, whether what they are seeking is really there, or not, many students first show up at an Aikido dojo because of Seagal Sensei's films. So he is doing, in a certain way, a service by spreading the word that Aikido exists.*
> 
> Aikido Kotokai Texas
> 
> *Aikido is performed by blending with the motion of the attacker and redirecting the force of the attack rather than opposing it head-on. This requires very little physical energy, as the aikido practitioner "leads" the attacker's momentum using entering and turning movements. The techniques are completed with various throws or joint locks. Aikido can be categorized under the general umbrella of grappling arts. Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu. The founder early students' documents bear the term aiki-jūjutsu. Many of the founder senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with broad ranges of interpretation and emphasis.*
> 
> Aikido Plano Dojo Martial Arts - About Aikido Instructor
> 
> 
> *Aikido is the martial way of harmonizing with the aggression of an attackers energy.  Aikido blends with and uses that energy against the attacker. It is one of the few martial arts in which the training eventually builds to deal with the threat of multiple attackers; a situation very different from those found in modern competitive martial arts.*
> 
> *Aikido is a disciplined study of the self, conflict, self defense, self preservation, aggression, combat and its resolution.*
> 
> *In addition to Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, O sensei (M. Ueshiba) also studied the following:*
> 
> Plano Aikido Center
> 
> *Aikido is a martial art that emphasizes more than fighting skill. Rather, it seeks to blend with, control and then dissipate the hostile energy of one or more attackers. Focusing on method rather than strength, Aikido is particularly suited to women, children and the elderly. Explore a way of life committed to peace and harmony, personal improvement and self defense.
> You are welcome to watch our classes or try for a week for free, no commitment. Just come with comfortable sport pants and a long sleeved shirt. One of our seasoned members will assist you during your practice. We will make sure that you feel comfortable among us.*
> 
> *  As to your reference to Ninjutsu ... way off the mark. That is a completely different set of arts.*
> 
> So where are these claims coming from soft art, love and peace and harmony? I thought Buddhism are anti- violence? If you attack them they would use it in defense way with little to no striking?
> 
> *Buddhist's anti-violence? You do realize that most of the samurai were zen buddhists, the common folks often practice pure land buddhism, but zen buddhism is often credited for allowing samurai to die willingly in combat. *
> 
> If you tried to attack Morihei Ueshiba would he just take you to the ground and hold you down? Or would he be bit rough on you may be give kick or two?
> 
> From what I read Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.
> 
> He become very religious and into peace thing.
> 
> If you are really into Buddhism than your martial arts should be soft.
> 
> *Where on earth did you get that idea?*
> 
> *I won't bother arguing but I would suggest these figures have been pulled out of a hat.*
> 
> So the way they train Aikido is non-violent self-defence love and pence thing but the practitioner can choose to use more striking and be more rough out side the class? But in the class they teach striking but not practice when the attacker comes after you in class to strike?
> 
> *These are just demonstrations. Hapkido and Aikido are very similar, depending on how they are taught, and are both descended from Aikijutsu. Ninjutsu and Krav are totally different.*
> 
> So why does Aikido demonstrations ,promote videos or training is so soft compared to this level of being rough.
> 
> And yes most of the videos I see it seems the attacker goes for strike and they use throw,take down, wrist lock or hold. I don't see them take them to the ground and than use one or two strikes when they are on the ground.
> 
> *Of course not. Aikido is not about trying to destroy your opponent. It's about controlling a situation and not trying to maim your opponent. *
> 
> Unless they teach striking but you don't use striking when a attacker goes after you.
> 
> Or may be in Japan they more into striking than the US.  Or Aikido is changed and not what it was like before.



My replies in red above. Look to be frank, you've asked a billion questions, and many of the answers don't seem to be resonating. If you want to evaluate Aikido….PUT DOWN your computer, stop looking at videos and reading websites, and go sit in on or watch a class at your local dojo.


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> No what I was saying if you took Aikido and some other art and fighting in a  cage, MMA or on the streets it would not be Aikido. Well you may use some Aikido moves now and then it would be mixed art fighting style.


You didn't answer the question. What is 'MMA style'? If I was fighting I doubt whether you could tell if I was using Karate, Aikido or Krav Maga. They all contain the same techniques. If I was using Aikido incorporating the Aikido strikes how would you differentiate it from my Goju Karate (hard and soft) where I utilise the locks and holds of karate?



moonhill99 said:


> Okay I  hardly see much striking in Aikido. The typical videos the attacker comes to strike and he gets taken down the ground. Some times they may hold the attacker on the ground.  Well it true may be they are trying to do take downs and wrist locks moves and taking video of it and posting it. And when they are learning how to strike they are not taking video of it.
> 
> And any video of it bit more striking and rough like the real aikido videos people say it too gritty and that not what Aikido is about.


I'm not of the school that believes YouTube has all the answers. What *you* see is irrelevant. I know what I have been taught and I know what I teach when I occasionally take Aikido classes. Almost every technique contains an atemi or the opportunity for atemi. Ueshiba is quoted as saying "Aikido is 70% atemi and 30% nage."



moonhill99 said:


> I respect what Aikido is and well I'm sure it is fun to learn a lot of those moves but in real street fight it would be more rough and gritty not so nice.


From what you have posted you have no idea of what Aikido is and its martial application. Of course it would not be so nice in its street application. That's why we are getting the criticism of Seagal. On the street it is real time, not training.



moonhill99 said:


> I'm not sure on history what it was like before but any thing I read on the internet even the message board - AikiWeb Aikido Forums is Aikido is non violent art it not used to fight.


And that is just 100% wrong. It's a bit like saying Tai Chi is a non violent art. Good grief! How do you think you counter violence?



moonhill99 said:


> It is not used to fight. I don't know where some members here have not come across keywords on internet like soft art, harmony, love and peace art and self defense.  If Aikido is a violent aggressive art than people at .aikiweb.com , martial arts instructors posting on their web site teaching aikido are wrong, posts are wrong and people are not uploading the violent aggressive videos on youtube.


As I said, you have no idea and you don't understand what they are saying.

If I have you in an arm bar I can be gentle and just hold you or I can step it up and dislocate your shoulder or elbow. It's a question of degree. When we practise we aren't cranking up the power. In a life and death situation you are not going to be gentle.



moonhill99 said:


> If you mean you learn striking skills in aikido but don't train to use it on the attacker in class but out side of the class you can use it than may be you have point.


Not sure what you are saying here. In training we do most techniques soft and slow, without using strength. It either requires a compliant partner or a great deal of skill to do that. We don't use the strike to get compliance. On the street you may need to.



moonhill99 said:


> I would love for clarification where these keywords like soft art, harmony, love and peace and gentile art come from than? Or is some one posting wrong information on the internet and now it spreading like wiled fire and now everyone is getting wrong info?


No, you are just taking them out of context to fit your idea of Aikido.



moonhill99 said:


> Is it possible in past Aikido was more rough and now they changed it like you say it softer?


Yes it was. Ueshiba was licenced to teach Daito Ryu and that was a very nasty form of Aikijutsu. As Ueshiba's skill increased he became much softer and post war he also got caught up in his religious ideals.



moonhill99 said:


> So why is it most of videos I see the attacker go to the ground and  they step back? Some times they may hold attacker on the ground.


Are you talking of videos of real fights or training videos?



moonhill99 said:


> Many people are criticizing the new aikido called real aikido being too rough.


Who are many people? Practitioners, instructors or outsiders?



moonhill99 said:


> From what I read you use little force than needed.


Naturally. Aikido is about using the other persons energy. Don't confuse 'soft' with 'weak'.



> Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?
> Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka - AikiWeb Aikido Forums
> 
> *His movies conveys violent messages and is totally the opposite of what O-sensei or Aikido is teaching.*


I disagree totally. He teaches under the Aikikai umbrella which is Ueshiba's grandson and Aikido's main branch.



> *Even if 'it is just a movie'. If he were a true aikidoka, he could have made movies which shows how aikido can control a villian through non-violent means, and not just go, "Its time to die", and crack goes the neck.*
> 
> *I have friends whose only knowledge of Aikido is Steven Seagal, and they think Aikido is a deadly violent art which is totally the opposite of what it is.*


There is a difference between Hollywood and real life.



> Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka - AikiWeb Aikido Forums
> 
> *No matter what, Steven Seagal has contributed largely in making Aikido so famous. The guy is 7th dan after all. Of course the ones looking for a deadly art get quickly disappointed and leave soon. Some others completely misunderstand it too and try to make it a religion of peace and love *


Note the word 'misunderstood'.



> *First, I would agree with those who have pointed out that, whether what they are seeking is really there, or not, many students first show up at an Aikido dojo because of Seagal Sensei's films. So he is doing, in a certain way, a service by spreading the word that Aikido exists.*


Cool, guys turn up to be like Seagal. If they go to the right school they can train as he does.



moonhill99 said:


> Unless they teach striking but you don't use striking when a attacker goes after you.


How stupid would that be? Get real. If someone is attacking me there is a huge likelihood I will hit him.



moonhill99 said:


> Or may be in Japan they more into striking than the US.  Or Aikido is changed and not what it was like before.


I think you need to get some first hand experience of Aikido from an experienced practitioner.



> Aikido Kotokai Texas
> 
> *Aikido is performed by blending with the motion of the attacker and redirecting the force of the attack rather than opposing it head-on. This requires very little physical energy, as the aikido practitioner "leads" the attacker's momentum using entering and turning movements. The techniques are completed with various throws or joint locks. Aikido can be categorized under the general umbrella of grappling arts. Aikido derives mainly from the martial art of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu. The founder early students' documents bear the term aiki-jūjutsu. Many of the founder senior students have different approaches to aikido, depending on when they studied with him. Today aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with broad ranges of interpretation and emphasis.*


Important to note ... "Many of the founder's senior students have different approaches to Aikido, depending on when they studied with him."


> Aikido Plano Dojo Martial Arts - About Aikido Instructor
> 
> *Aikido is the martial way of harmonizing with the aggression of an attackers energy.  Aikido blends with and uses that energy against the attacker. It is one of the few martial arts in which the training eventually builds to deal with the threat of multiple attackers; a situation very different from those found in modern competitive martial arts.*
> 
> *Aikido is a disciplined study of the self, conflict, self defense, self preservation, aggression, combat and its resolution.*
> 
> *In addition to Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, O sensei (M. Ueshiba) also studied the following:*


Nothing wrong here.


> Plano Aikido Center
> 
> *Aikido is a martial art that emphasizes more than fighting skill. Rather, it seeks to blend with, control and then dissipate the hostile energy of one or more attackers. Focusing on method rather than strength, Aikido is particularly suited to women, children and the elderly. Explore a way of life committed to peace and harmony, personal improvement and self defense.
> You are welcome to watch our classes or try for a week for free, no commitment. Just come with comfortable sport pants and a long sleeved shirt. One of our seasoned members will assist you during your practice. We will make sure that you feel comfortable among us.*


So? This is advertising blurb.



moonhill99 said:


> So where are these claims coming from soft art, love and peace and harmony? I thought Buddhism are anti- violence? If you attack them they would use it in defense way with little to no striking?


Aikido is a 'soft' or 'internal' style of martial art. Harmony is the relationship between Tori and Uke, nothing to do with love or peace.



moonhill99 said:


> If you tried to attack Morihei Ueshiba would he just take you to the ground and hold you down? Or would he be bit rough on you may be give kick or two?
> 
> From what I read Morihei Ueshiba changed Aikido where there was less striking and more softer.
> 
> He become very religious and into peace thing.
> 
> If you are really into Buddhism than your martial arts should be soft.


Aikido is nothing to do with Buddhism. It is also nothing to do with Shinto or Omoto religions either. As Ueshiba got older his Aikido got softer, not weaker or less violent.



moonhill99 said:


> So the way they train Aikido is non-violent self-defence love and pence thing but the practitioner can choose to use more striking and be more rough out side the class? But in the class they teach striking but not practice when the attacker comes after you in class to strike?


In class is training, but it is not 'love' and although it is smooth it is also violent in as much as we are causing pain and we have the opportunity to cause injury. Outside class there are no rules.



moonhill99 said:


> So why does Aikido demonstrations ,promote videos or training is so soft compared to this level of being rough.


Again you are confusing 'soft' and 'weak'. The softness of Aikido is incredibly powerful. Because it is performed smoothly you don't perceive it as rough.



moonhill99 said:


> And yes most of the videos I see it seems the attacker goes for strike and they use throw,take down, wrist lock or hold. I don't see them take them to the ground and than use one or two strikes when they are on the ground.


You are seeing what you want to see. You are missing what is available if required.



moonhill99 said:


> Unless they teach striking but you don't use striking when a attacker goes after you.


How stupid would that be? Get real. If someone is attacking me there is a huge likelihood I will hit him.



moonhill99 said:


> Or may be in Japan they more into striking than the US.  Or Aikido is changed and not what it was like before.


I think you need to get some first hand experience of Aikido from an experienced practitioner.


----------



## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> Well, no, not exactly, it would still be Aikido. What will happen is that it may not look like Aikido that we see in demonstrations or in practice. I've seen it used once in a real fight, and at the time, had no idea what the guy did. At a bar, a guy swung once, the aikidoka ducked and backed up with his hands up and then the guy tried to swing again, and I saw him (the attacker) fly into the wall hitting his back on the wall and landing on his head…Now, I know that it was a kaitenage that was executed at a very fast speed……Aikido is still aikido in a real fight, but it may look a little ugly.



What I was saying if you took aikido and other art say wing chun and 80% of the fighting is wing chun it was not really aikido fighting.

If you fighting was 40% Judo, 40% aikido and 20% wing chun you using mixed fighting style.

When I mean using aikido is using only aikido moves no other art.




Spinedoc said:


> Well, Aikido is about harmony and not harming the attacker. It's about defusing a situation, and neutralizing while gaining control of an attacker. Most of all…it's about balance….and in way more ways than you think.



This is what needs to be cleared up is Aikido hard or soft art?

Well true practitioner of karate or kung fu can go hard or easy on the person. But it is not taboo in school you should not strike more than one or two times and it better to put the person on the ground and move back or put the person on the ground and in hold than strike.




Spinedoc said:


> Do you think martial arts are solely about fighting? I get the sense that you do, and that might reflect some of the disconnect here. Additionally, you have to take into context Japanese culture.



All martial arts give you the tools, it up to the practitioner to choose how rough you want to go. Some schools may place a more  emphasis on self defense or combat fighting



Spinedoc said:


> One of the reasons that Aikido is often used by police, bouncers, or bodyguard types, is that you can defuse a violent situation, restrain someone, and not try to harm them. Aikido strives to not hurt the attacker (not that you won't cause pain…more on that later) and not try to kill or permanently injure them. I'm not sure which videos you watch, but we practice pins and submissions all the time. They aren't perfect and one of my classmates has perfected rolling out of the kotegaeshi pin, so I simply slam my knee into his kidney and it keeps him from rolling.



Aikido today seems to be more self defense than fighting like you say in past where there was more striking and more rough . Where like some videos above like the hapkido,‪Krav Maga‬ jiu jitsu or Krav Maga  above being more rough you could get into legal trouble fighting a bad guy on the street if go bit more rough in the self defense. Like  a strike to throat or neck twisting so on or many strikes so on.




Spinedoc said:


> Buddhist's anti-violence? You do realize that most of the samurai were zen buddhists, the common folks often practice pure land buddhism, but zen buddhism is often credited for allowing samurai to die willingly in combat.



May be some other people know more on it but I'm sure hard core Buddhism or monk would never strike back. They would take pain of being attack than fighting back. They may take you to ground or hold you down but never strike back no matter what.

Buddhism like Hindu believe that pain,suffering, imperfect world,violence and wars is base on past bad needs of past life. And by doing good deeds you next life will be better. Meaning if you poor and have medical illness and lots violence you may have done some thing really bad in your past life.




Spinedoc said:


> Of course not. Aikido is not about trying to destroy your opponent. It's about controlling a situation and not trying to maim your opponent.



No one saying you have to destroy your opponent.

My Idea of aikido may be different of what  really aikido is like.


----------



## Hyoho

Argus I welcome your comments but what I said is not sweeping statement. One should not get a sportlike or iaido like sword cutting action confused with kobudo/koryu when the intention is to cut through something/someone rather than "at it/them".

All the videos more or less show a deliberate stopping action in strikes and cuts. It looks like a "Here grab this please" action. The point I was tryng to make is that the harder and action is towards you the easier it is to deal with. A half hearted attack is dealt with half heartedly. Using extra energy on your own side rather defeats the objective of using the other persons force against them until it reaches the point of subduing them against other actions. Using a sense of realism in your practice will make you a better budoka. Its not all creative visualization on ones own.

I don't think posting YouTube videos help much in making ones point either. That is unless its all you do anyway.

Then again I have watched Ueshiba Sensei using a bokuto. He was without doubt a good kenshi. Maybe that part that he handed down has fallen by the wayside?


----------



## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> May be some other people know more on it but I'm sure hard core Buddhism or monk would never strike back. They would take pain of being attack than fighting back. They may take you to ground or hold you down but never strike back no matter what.



_You are so *precious!*_







> "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -*Tenzin Gyatso, 14th and current Dalai Lama, May, 2001, Portland, Oregon,* (and, about as :hardcore Buddhism AND "monk" as it gets....





moonhill99 said:


> My Idea of aikido may be different of what  really aikido is like.



*Yes.* Get your nose out of the books, turn off the computer, and get to the dojo, for goddsakes.....


----------



## Hyoho

@Moonhill, we all try to be good Buddhists. After a Buddhist sermon in Japan on being a good follower, not killing anything or eating things that have been killed we usually meet up at the barbecue shop.


----------



## Spinedoc

moonhill99 said:


> What I was saying if you took aikido and other art say wing chun and 80% of the fighting is wing chun it was not really aikido fighting.
> 
> If you fighting was 40% Judo, 40% aikido and 20% wing chun you using mixed fighting style.
> 
> When I mean using aikido is using only aikido moves no other art.
> 
> *Umm, no one has said anything else. *
> 
> This is what needs to be cleared up is Aikido hard or soft art?
> 
> Well true practitioner of karate or kung fu can go hard or easy on the person. But it is not taboo in school you should not strike more than one or two times and it better to put the person on the ground and move back or put the person on the ground and in hold than strike.
> 
> *What does it matter? Look, to be frank, you are trying to classify and stratify different arts according to terminology that you have read on the internet, but you don't have the first idea of what you are really seeing. So, my question is, what constitutes hard or soft? and does it matter?*
> 
> 
> All martial arts give you the tools, it up to the practitioner to choose how rough you want to go. Some schools may place a more  emphasis on self defense or combat fighting
> 
> *Ahhh, see now we are getting somewhere, and I can see where there is a disconnect. I would say that martial arts are about infinitely more than physical techniques, yet, that is all you see. *
> 
> Aikido today seems to be more self defense than fighting like you say in past where there was more striking and more rough . Where like some videos above like the hapkido,‪Krav Maga‬ jiu jitsu or Krav Maga  above being more rough you could get into legal trouble fighting a bad guy on the street if go bit more rough in the self defense. Like  a strike to throat or neck twisting so on or many strikes so on.
> 
> *Umm, what?*
> 
> 
> May be some other people know more on it but I'm sure hard core Buddhism or monk would never strike back. They would take pain of being attack than fighting back. They may take you to ground or hold you down but never strike back no matter what.
> 
> Buddhism like Hindu believe that pain,suffering, imperfect world,violence and wars is base on past bad needs of past life. And by doing good deeds you next life will be better. Meaning if you poor and have medical illness and lots violence you may have done some thing really bad in your past life.
> 
> *So, you don't really understand buddhism much more than you understand Aikido, which is to say, not much. *
> 
> 
> No one saying you have to destroy your opponent.
> 
> My Idea of aikido may be different of what  really aikido is like.
> 
> *Most definitely. *



Look, you need to go study. Take your time, find a good teacher, and learn. Right now, you are grasping at complex topics which are interrelated in subtle ways, and you are coming to sweeping conclusions that are for the most part inaccurate. Good luck with your studies.


----------



## moonhill99

K-man said:


> I'm not of the school that believes YouTube has all the answers. What *you* see is irrelevant. I know what I have been taught and I know what I teach when I occasionally take Aikido classes. Almost every technique contains an atemi or the opportunity for atemi. Ueshiba is quoted as saying "Aikido is 70% atemi and 30% nage."



Well it is true if I type in youtube atemi and Aikido it showing striking.

But why when I look at promote videos, demonstration and attacker coming after the person they no striking just throws,take downs,wrist locks and holds?


Is it you spend x number of time learning atemi striking , x number of type learning throws,take downs,wrist locks.

And these are videos people are uploading?

If so why is it separated? Other arts in promote videos, demonstration put in striking.


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> *Yes.* Get your nose out of the books, turn off the computer, and get to the dojo, for goddsakes.....





Spinedoc said:


> Look, you need to go study. Take your time, find a good teacher, and learn. Right now, you are grasping at complex topics which are interrelated in subtle ways, and you are coming to sweeping conclusions that are for the most part inaccurate. Good luck with your studies.



Not if I go to school thinking it going to look like this.











The thing is this is what I have in my head how the striking should play out.

Like I said to other poster if I type in youtube atemi and Aikido _*it is showing striking.*_

But the promote videos,demonstration and training seem to be more on throws,take downs,wrist locks and holds. For some reason.

Not like how two Aikijujutsu videos above show.


----------



## Argus

Hyoho said:


> Argus I welcome your comments but what I said is not sweeping statement. One should not get a sportlike or iaido like sword cutting action confused with kobudo/koryu when the intention is to cut through something/someone rather than "at it/them".
> 
> All the videos more or less show a deliberate stopping action in strikes and cuts. It looks like a "Here grab this please" action. The point I was tryng to make is that the harder and action is towards you the easier it is to deal with. A half hearted attack is dealt with half heartedly. Using extra energy on your own side rather defeats the objective of using the other persons force against them until it reaches the point of subduing them against other actions. Using a sense of realism in your practice will make you a better budoka. Its not all creative visualization on ones own.
> 
> I don't think posting YouTube videos help much in making ones point either. That is unless its all you do anyway.
> 
> Then again I have watched Ueshiba Sensei using a bokuto. He was without doubt a good kenshi. Maybe that part that he handed down has fallen by the wayside?



Thanks for the reply!

I wonder if it is highly dependent on the system in question? As for German Longsword, we are generally taught to cut into a target rather than "at" or "past" it, if that makes sense. Numerous Japanese sword arts seem to share this method of cutting, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

While I've never trained in any koryuu arts, most of the demonstrations I've seen of them present very direct systems, with examples of "following after" and centerline theory similar to what one will find in Longsword. While I agree that youtube videos aren't the best way to make one's point -- particularly in an art that one hasn't trained, I'll put a few here for reference as I'd like a more educated opinion as to what's going on:

onoha ittou ryuu:




Cuts appear to be directed into the opponent, and keep the centerline closed. There are also some examples of "following in" when an opponent opens the line by retracting his sword, or cutting in a committed motion towards the floor. The one exception is where tori demonstrates what we would term a "wechselhau" -- cutting down and scooping back up.

hokushin ittou ryuu




There are lots of examples of direct cuts and thrusts, and taking advantage of an opponent who cuts to the ground.

teshin shoden katori shintou ryuu




[See 10:18 onward; they demonstrate a method of cutting (maki-uchi), and then go on to break down a few of the forms. I might also note that the commentator (Ootake Risuke Shihan, I think?) even mentions in passing "the katana cuts well enough; you needn't strike forcefully"]
Even katori shintou ryuu, whose kata appear more "flowery" on the surface is very tight and direct in application.

So, it seems to me that many swordsmen do in fact practice attacks that terminate in a forward position. But, I admit that I'm only looking at these arts from an outside perspective, and I realize that there is a large diversity of ryuuha among Japanese sword arts.


----------



## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> Well it is true if I type in youtube atemi and Aikido it showing striking.



_Atemi_ *is* striking (当て身) .....Ueshiba said, as I posted upthread, that :


> Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido.



and, elsewhere, :


> In  a real battle, atemi is 70%, technique (throwing) is 30%



but this is also the man who said that his physical training ended in 1941, and that he'd been studying "the way of the gods" ever since.





moonhill99 said:


> But why when I look at promote videos, demonstration and attacker coming after the person they no striking just throws,take downs,wrist locks and holds?



For the same reasons that people insist there is no striking in judo: because of the way it is taught by many people.

Aikido became popularized (as in, "spread across the world") during the time when Ueshiba was an old man who was emphasizing (correctly) positive values, peace, and harmony. The  lack of emphasis on atemi grew out of this-there are those threads of aikido, like Iwama, that demonstrate more emphasis on atemi-but it's still aikikai aikido. In fact, I believe that  Seagal Sensei trained pretty extensively with an Iwama sensei (Kobayashi?), and this might account for some of what he does.Another thing that accounts for it is his size-he's 6'5", and uses his body to his advantage, which is as it should be.

As to the original post, I know he was still doing seminars as recently as 2011-I attended one in the Tenshin dojo in Taos, NM, back in 2004. I don't know that he's had any since 2011, though, or even if  there is still a Tenshin aikido dojo in Taos......

In any case, we all can aspire to aikido's ideals of positivity: peace, harmony, good relationships.....*and* practice atemi when necessary. Ideally, sure, I'd love to be able to defend myself without hurting an assailant. Realistically, that's just not likely: I'll just  never be that good....

EDIT: Dunn Sensei still has a dojo in Taos, but he apparently doesn't call it "Tenshin" anymore...


----------



## Hyoho

Most of the videos show schools that are using protective equipment. Also strikes/cuts made are principally to the wrist. Schools not using armour tend like Aikido to use avoidance linked with attack. We can stop the blade depending one where a cut is made such as jodan, chudan, gedan.  As elder999 says Seagal is big. his teacher would teach him what works for a big man. Our physical makeup does dictate variation as long as good fundamentals are present. Character is added to fundamentals, not mashed in to fill in the gaps. You cant 'pop' in another art either to replace things you don't know. I love the remark, "This is also the man who said that his physical training ended in 1941, and that he'd been studying "the way of the gods" ever since". This 'is' Ki. Hence Aikido.

Too many videos! You wont learn much from videos. I wont even allow people to take them unless its for personal use and have shunned TV programs looking for sensationalism for years.


----------



## Gwaredydd

After watching Segal closely, relatively recently; I don't think he teaches Aikido in any form any more.  It can be quite common to cross train in different arts, I don't advocate the purist totally, but Segal seems to have given up his principals of Japanese aikido to a somewhat Chinese based short arm kung fu or wu shu style.  The wrist locks he uses are hard, he almost never steps off line now and he limits his use of space and body movement.  So, no, he does not teach Aikido in my view as he once did.


----------



## Hyoho

Sad to hear, Well at least he is not calling it his own and has decided to rename it. Maybe that's to follow?


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> Not if I go to school thinking it going to look like this.


I'm assuming this is the sort of training you would like. OK, that's fine. These guys are good but it would have taken many years to get to that degree of proficiency. Most classes will be teaching basics until you get to at least black belt level and most students will never get to that level of expertise.



moonhill99 said:


> The thing is this is what I have in my head how the striking should play out.
> 
> Like I said to other poster if I type in youtube atemi and Aikido _*it is showing striking.*_
> 
> But the promote videos,demonstration and training seem to be more on throws,take downs,wrist locks and holds. For some reason.
> 
> Not like how two Aikijujutsu videos above show.


The Aikijutsu videos show the strikes. The training itself doesn't use strikes. That is exactly the same as good Aikido.

This is a video I have posted before. 






Is that the type of Aikido you are looking for?


----------



## elder999

Gwaredydd said:


> After watching Segal closely, relatively recently; I don't think he teaches Aikido in any form any more.  It can be quite common to cross train in different arts, I don't advocate the purist totally, but Segal seems to have given up his principals of Japanese aikido to a somewhat Chinese based short arm kung fu or wu shu style.  The wrist locks he uses are hard, he almost never steps off line now and he limits his use of space and body movement.  So, no, he does not teach Aikido in my view as he once did.



By "watching Seagal closely, relatively recently" do you mean "after watching his latest movies," or "after watching him teach?"


----------



## moonhill99

K-man said:


> I'm assuming this is the sort of training you would like. OK, that's fine. These guys are good but it would have taken many years to get to that degree of proficiency. Most classes will be teaching basics until you get to at least black belt level and most students will never get to that level of expertise.




Yea my idea of bit more rough and striking is like this.


























This is what I have in my head how the striking should play out.

To me Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu Krav Maga,  Japanese jiu jitsu  and hapkido  art is some thing more I would want to train in.


Like Tony said in other thread.



Tony Dismukes said:


> If I might make a suggestion ...
> 
> I believe you have not yet begun training in a martial art and are just looking at different styles online to see if any of them appeal to you. Is that correct?



Yes . This is what doing.

If time was not problem I would take Japanese jiu jitsu and aikido.

If I had my way I would take combat Japanese jiujitsu mix in with Judo and  Krav Maga.





K-man said:


> The Aikijutsu videos show the strikes. The training itself doesn't use strikes. That is exactly the same as good Aikido.
> 
> This is a video I have posted before.




Okay so if I understand if one goes to Aikijutsu or Aikido they will learn striking, but it will not be part of training learning to do throws, take-downs, wrist locks, holds and dealing with attacker? It will be separate training?

They will do x number time learning striking skills than x number of time learning to do throws, take-downs, wrist locks, holds and dealing with attacker?

sorry but I'm confused here on this.




K-man said:


> ki fusion Aikido - YouTube
> 
> 
> Is that the type of Aikido you are looking for?




sorta of, but it looks like more gritty aikido than the nice aikido .

I would say Aikijutsu videos I posted above or Jujutsu Krav Maga video I posted above, Japanese jiujitsu  or Hapkido  above looks more like style I would want to train in.


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> Aikido became popularized (as in, "spread across the world") during the time when Ueshiba was an old man who was emphasizing (correctly) positive values, peace, and harmony. The  lack of emphasis on atemi grew out of this-there are those threads of aikido, like Iwama, that demonstrate more emphasis on atemi-but it's still aikikai aikido.
> 
> .



So where would one find a school teaching the old Aikido with more striking?

Are the old schools getting hard to find now?

In Japan do they still teach the old ways?


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> To me Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu Krav Maga,  Japanese jiu jitsu  and hapkido  art is some thing more I would want to train in.


OK, but remember, Aikijustsu and Aikido are much the same depending on the teacher, Jujutsu Krav Maga doesn't exist to the best of my knowledge and Hapkido is the Korean style of Aikido. Japanese Jujutsu has many styles so you will need to check carefully to ensure what you want is available.



moonhill99 said:


> If time was not problem I would take Japanese jiu jitsu and aikido.


If you had a good Jujutsu school you wouldn't need the Aikido.



moonhill99 said:


> If I had my way I would take combat Japanese jiujitsu mix in with Judo and  Krav Maga.


Jujutsu with Krav would be good but I wouldn't bother with the Judo. Judo is a refined Jujutsu.



moonhill99 said:


> Okay so if I understand if one goes to Aikijutsu or Aikido they will learn striking, but it will not be part of training learning to do throws, take-downs, wrist locks, holds and dealing with attacker? It will be separate training?


Why would you think that? Striking is a big part of making the other techniques effective.



moonhill99 said:


> They will do x number time learning striking skills than x number of time learning to do throws, take-downs, wrist locks, holds and dealing with attacker?
> 
> sorry but I'm confused here on this.


No! It is all the same training.



moonhill99 said:


> sorta of, but it looks like more gritty aikido than the nice aikido .


It is very nice Aikido and we normally train it as 'nice' Aikido. The reason I posted it was to show you that 'nice' Aikido is very effective when you apply the power. These are some of the guys I train with. 



moonhill99 said:


> I would say Aikijutsu videos I posted above or Jujutsu Krav Maga video I posted above, Japanese jiujitsu  or Hapkido  above looks more like style I would want to train in.


Cool! Now that you know what you want, you have to stand up, move away from the keyboard and go explore your neighbourhood. 
Good luck!


----------



## moonhill99

K-man said:


> OK, but remember, Aikijustsu and Aikido are much the same depending on the teacher, Jujutsu Krav Maga doesn't exist to the best of my knowledge and Hapkido is the Korean style of Aikido. Japanese Jujutsu has many styles so you will need to check carefully to ensure what you want is available.



What do you mean Aikijustsu and Aikido is the same? Did Aikido some how changed from it.




K-man said:


> If you had a good Jujutsu school you wouldn't need the Aikido.



A lot of the Jujutsu schools out side of Japan have more in common with Judo than Aikido. I think it is those modern western schools some members talk about here, than the old classic Jujutsu schools in Japan.




K-man said:


> Jujutsu with Krav would be good but I wouldn't bother with the Judo. Judo is a refined Jujutsu.



Some people say Judo is better than Jujutsu and Aikido because Jujutsu and Aikido is stand up art and have no ground work.

That if you take Jujutsu or Aikido you better not end up on the ground.




K-man said:


> Why would you think that? Striking is a big part of making the other techniques effective.
> 
> No! It is all the same training.



What I mean is self defense scenario tough in class on how to respond to attacker.

Step one - Strike
Step two -Throw/ take down
Step three-  finished move hold or strike

Back away.


If attacker gets up than repeat the above.


I know in real self defense scenario on the streets it be more ugly with skilled fighter and unpredictable moves.


That why some of the other styles are more appealing to me as a main art and Aikido more as supplement to combat jiujitsu,Judo or Jujutsu Krav Mag




K-man said:


> It is very nice Aikido and we normally train it as 'nice' Aikido. The reason I posted it was to show you that 'nice' Aikido is very effective when you apply the power. These are some of the guys I train with.



No, what I mean by nice  is flowing and smoothing movement like this.


----------



## Hyoho

I don't think you need the videos to make your point, How can there be a stopping movement when you are using the flow of an attack midstream against that person? If the energy has gone or is blocked it interrupts the objective.


----------



## moonhill99

Hyoho said:


> I don't think you need the videos to make your point, How can there be a stopping movement when you are using the flow of an attack midstream against that person? If the energy has gone or is blocked it interrupts the objective.



Okay I think I know what you are thinking here and trying to get at.

If you block or strike ( like I wanted) and incoming attacker coming at you at a some one speed it would interrupts the flowing and smoothing movement and would not be using the attackers own energy against him. If so that would explain some of lack of striking.

That these throws and take downs work better by using the energy against him.And by using a block or strike would interrupt both flowing and smoothing movement and aikido theory of using energy against him.

If so that would explain the lack of striking seeing by the incoming attacker coming at you a some one speed.

If so than yes you really don't want to strike on the incoming attacker as that would interrupt both flowing and smoothing movement and aikido theory of using energy against him!! And making the throw and take down harder.

That some of these throws and take downs work better when the attacker momentum is still in movement against him. And block or strike wold interrupt it causing the attacker to come to stand still.


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> What do you mean Aikijustsu and Aikido is the same? Did Aikido some how changed from it.


Aikido was derived from Daito Ryu, a style of Jujutsu. Initially it was referred to as Aikijutsu



moonhill99 said:


> A lot of the Jujutsu schools out side of Japan have more in common with Judo than Aikido. I think it is those modern western schools some members talk about here, than the old classic Jujutsu schools in Japan.


I'm totally surprised. If that is indeed the case then find one that actually teaches jujutsu.  



moonhill99 said:


> Some people say Judo is better than Jujutsu and Aikido because Jujutsu and Aikido is stand up art and have no ground work.
> 
> That if you take Jujutsu or Aikido you better not end up on the ground.


Then 'some people' would be wrong. For goodness sake, stop posting what other people have told you and find out for yourself.



moonhill99 said:


> What I mean is self defense scenario tough in class on how to respond to attacker.
> 
> Step one - Strike
> Step two -Throw/ take down
> Step three-  finished move hold or strike
> 
> Back away.
> 
> If attacker gets up than repeat the above.


That is stupid! What you have described is fighting, not self defence and it is so simplistic to be unbelievable. On top of everything, why would you back away while the threat still exists? To go through all that again, when you were in a controlling position, makes absolutely zero sense.



moonhill99 said:


> I know in real self defense scenario on the streets it be more ugly with skilled fighter and unpredictable moves.


Hmm! But with real self defence you wouldn't be in that situation to begin with. By the time you are squaring up to a skilled fighter on the street your self defence skills have been shown to be exceptionally poor.



moonhill99 said:


> That why some of the other styles are more appealing to me as a main art and Aikido more as supplement to combat jiujitsu,Judo or Jujutsu Krav Mag


Oh boy! Jujutsu is Jujutsu. 'Combat Jiujitsu' is a marketing tag. Same with 'Jujutsu Krav Maga'. Krav Maga is Krav Maga.



moonhill99 said:


> No, what I mean by nice  is flowing and smoothing movement like this.


You do realise that these videos are all of skilled Aikidoka taking Ukemi. The same techniques applied to untrained people will look very 'gritty' and not in the least bit 'nice'.


----------



## Hyoho

Some of this is not unlike sword work done without protection. We start with beginners standing at a distance. Even if its not one on one they can respond to the timing of an attacker. One on one its gradually speeded up over the a long period of time. Finally we can hopefully attack at near on full speed. There has to be an element of danger to get the right response that should be to deal with an attack rather than avoid. No point responding to something that wont hit you anyway.


----------



## moonhill99

K-man said:


> Aikido was derived from Daito Ryu, a style of Jujutsu. Initially it was referred to as Aikijutsu




So how did Aikido get changed and why did it branched off from Aikijutsu?



K-man said:


> That is stupid! What you have described is fighting, not self defence and it is so simplistic to be unbelievable. On top of everything, why would you back away while the threat still exists? To go through all that again, when you were in a controlling position, makes absolutely zero sense.



No, I have sorta of choreographed move stuck in my head base on some videos I watched that I want to train on.

I know self defence on the streets it will be more ugly and not play out so nice with skilled and unpredictable fighter.

The self defense scenario tough in class on how to respond to attacker.

The attacker runs,charges, moves goes after.

Step one - Strike
Step two -Throw/ take down
Step three- finished move hold or strike



K-man like said I watched thee videos and this what I'm trying to get at.

This sorta of what is stuck in my head how I would like to train.

















I watched these videos and this is how I would like to incorporate the striking and train like.

Well yes I know in real defense scenario it would be ugly and not play out so nice with skilled unpredictable fighter.




K-man said:


> That is stupid! What you have described is fighting, not self defence and it is so simplistic to be unbelievable. On top of everything, why would you back away while the threat still exists? To go through all that again, when you were in a controlling position, makes absolutely zero sense.




Oh other thing I think I'm misunderstanding about aikido I think what Hyoha getting at is number of things I read but not understanding it.

That these throws and take downs work better when.

1 using the attackers own energy against him
2 unbalance the attacker
3 move the attacker in the directions he moving or wants to go
4 use the flowing and smoothing movement
5 use the attacker momentum is still in movement against him


Than I can see if you used block or strike ( like I wanted ) and incoming attacker coming at you the interrupt it causing the attacker to come to stand still.  Making the throw or take down harder.

There may be times when attacker is not moving when you may have to strike or moving really slow.

If so than I think I'm missing up how aikido moves work with some other arts that are different. With some of them that use more force to deal with force.

If so that would explain why there is lack of striking in coming attacker and why you would not want to strike.



K-man said:


> Oh boy! Jujutsu is Jujutsu. 'Combat Jiujitsu' is a marketing tag. Same with 'Jujutsu Krav Maga'. Krav Maga is Krav Maga.



Any think with word combat will have more striking and be more rough than a self defense were goal is to get way from the fight. So in self defense if you can get him on ground and run away you won.

Where the combat would put in more sticking to the attacker gets injured or say I had enough.

In self defense Judo or Aikido would play out better in court than Krav Mag or combat Jiujitsu. Will they will say you become too aggressive. A take down to ground may be better than punched to throat,eye gouging,neck twitching and chokeholds.

And striking more than two times may be seen in court you are too aggressive.

Only time Krav Mag may be good is if you getting beaten not attacked and the guy is really big you may have no choice but to fight rough and dirty. Otherwise you may want to go bit more softer.


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> So how did Aikido get changed and why did it branched off from Aikijutsu?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I have sorta of choreographed move stuck in my head base on some videos I watched that I want to train on.
> 
> I know self defence on the streets it will be more ugly and not play out so nice with skilled and unpredictable fighter.
> 
> The self defense scenario tough in class on how to respond to attacker.
> 
> The attacker runs,charges, moves goes after.
> 
> Step one - Strike
> Step two -Throw/ take down
> Step three- finished move hold or strike
> 
> 
> 
> K-man like said I watched thee videos and this what I'm trying to get at.
> 
> This sorta of what is stuck in my head how I would like to train.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I watched these videos and this is how I would like to incorporate the striking and train like.
> 
> Well yes I know in real defense scenario it would be ugly and not play out so nice with skilled unpredictable fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh other thing I think I'm misunderstanding about aikido I think what Hyoha getting at is number of things I read but not understanding it.
> 
> That these throws and take downs work better when.
> 
> 1 using the attackers own energy against him
> 2 unbalance the attacker
> 3 move the attacker in the directions he moving or wants to go
> 4 use the flowing and smoothing movement
> 5 use the attacker momentum is still in movement against him
> 
> 
> Than I can see if you used block or strike ( like I wanted ) and incoming attacker coming at you the interrupt it causing the attacker to come to stand still.  Making the throw or take down harder.
> 
> There may be times when attacker is not moving when you may have to strike or moving really slow.
> 
> If so than I think I'm missing up how aikido moves work with some other arts that are different. With some of them that use more force to deal with force.
> 
> If so that would explain why there is lack of striking in coming attacker and why you would not want to strike.
> 
> 
> 
> Any think with word combat will have more striking and be more rough than a self defense were goal is to get way from the fight. So in self defense if you can get him on ground and run away you won.
> 
> Where the combat would put in more sticking to the attacker gets injured or say I had enough.
> 
> In self defense Judo or Aikido would play out better in court than Krav Mag or combat Jiujitsu. Will they will say you become too aggressive. A take down to ground may be better than punched to throat,eye gouging,neck twitching and chokeholds.
> 
> And striking more than two times may be seen in court you are too aggressive.
> 
> Only time Krav Mag may be good is if you getting beaten not attacked and the guy is really big you may have no choice but to fight rough and dirty. Otherwise you may want to go bit more softer.


*Moonhill*, I'm pulling out of this discussion. You are not listening to anything people are telling you. You know what you want. Go find it! Good luck.


----------



## moonhill99

K-man said:


> *Moonhill*, I'm pulling out of this discussion. You are not listening to anything people are telling you. You know what you want. Go find it! Good luck.




What paragraph? I quoted 4 paragraph of your messages reply to me in that post.  Was the the Aikido was derived from Daito Ryu, a style of Jujutsu. Initially it was referred to as Aikijutsu. These are your words.

Has for the striking it was explain many times here that in past aikido was more rough than Morihei Ueshiba soften it!! Yes when he got older and more religious.

Did you not read Spinedoc post saying The striking is often complimentary. We use strikes to maintain maai, distract our opponent, unbalance them, and to provide openings for other techniques.


Than you posted video of Aikido doing striking and I said it did not look so nice because of lack of smooth and flowing movements.

Did you not read elder999 post saying ''For the same reasons that people insist there is no striking in judo: because of the way it is taught by many people.

Aikido became popularized (as in, "spread across the world") during the time when Ueshiba was an old man who was emphasizing (correctly) positive values, peace, and harmony. The lack of emphasis on atemi grew out of this-there are those threads of aikido, like Iwama, that demonstrate more emphasis on atemi-but it's still aikikai aikido.'''


Some of other members saying some schools have more striking than others schools.

Than you post video with striking and I'm saying it not nice Aikido because it not flowing and smoothing but more gritty.


It seems you the one with the reading comprehension problem if that is what you getting at above post above.


Really in end some one like Aikido or they don't.End of story, There are other styles out their more rough and lots striking for people into that kind of stuff.


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> By "watching Seagal closely, relatively recently" do you mean "after watching his latest movies," or "after watching him teach?"




I think he means Steven Seagal teaching the rough and gritty Aikido in Moscow and getting taken down to the ground by young student doing wrist lock on Steven Seagal!!!

That in is prime that would never happen.But saying now that he is older it is showing.


----------



## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> I think he means Steven Seagal teaching the rough and gritty Aikido in Moscow and getting taken down to the ground by young student doing wrist lock on Steven Seagal!!!
> 
> That in is prime that would never happen.But saying now that he is older it is showing.



Uh.....*no.*

You do realize that was an instructional moment? That he was merely taking a fall from a student, rather than "being taken down to the ground..."



Get to a dojo. Seriously.


----------



## Hyoho

moonhill99 said:


> I think he means Steven Seagal teaching the rough and gritty Aikido in Moscow and getting taken down to the ground by young student doing wrist lock on Steven Seagal!!!
> 
> That in is prime that would never happen.But saying now that he is older it is showing.



If you cant even see the difference between losing and instruction in a video? I'm out too. Not that I helped much anyway


----------



## Chris Parker

moonhill99 said:


> Aikijujutsu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not seen Aikido done in way like those videos of Aikijujutsu.
> 
> Sure I'm not sure where those phrase and talk harmony, soft hard,gentle art, love and peace than come from.
> 
> Unless like the above poster saying *use striking to maintain maai, distract our opponent, unbalance them, and to provide openings for other techniques*
> 
> not striking in way other arts use striking.
> 
> And I don't see any striking when the attacker is on the ground like I do in Aikijujutsu or some jujutsu schools. But they do have ways of putting the attacker in pins and holds on the ground if they want to.



Not really wanting to delve into some of the bizarre aspects of this thread, but it should be noted that the "Ogawa Ryu" is not in any way authentic Japanese martial arts… it's a system devised by some Brazilian's who copied videos of old Japanese systems, made up a completely fabricated history, and claimed to be a historical system. It is not something to look to as a good example of anything other than a good fake.

As for the rest, Moonhill, the simple fact of the matter is that you are still applying your very inaccurate understandings of, well, pretty much everything you are trying to discuss. I recommend (strongly) that you start from a position of accepting that you're not right about anything…


----------



## moonhill99

Chris the frustration here in this thread and else where people say yes and no.

There is striking and other people say there is little striking.

It like saying it takes year for earth to go around the sun that is true and false. And when people see striking or rough fighting like chokeholds, kicks, elbow strikes,knee striking and such people say that is not Aikdo. 

Saying Aikdo is base on non violent art of peace,love and harmony.

Than some people say in past Aikdo was really rough and had more striking than got softer later on. So where did this peace,love and harmony come from?

Than some people say schools that use old school training ways more rough and striking.

That the founder toned down the training in his later years but some still tech and train to old ways.

 Some people say some other forms of Aikdo more rough and striking.


----------



## moonhill99

I wonder if some of the striking confusion in threads is more a miscommunication problem of what posters view of striking is vs striking they use.

Here is striking in Aikdo. But it may be a miscommunication problem of what posters view of striking look like than the striking they use.





















Thinking more along karate striking ,street striking or Krav Maga. Than striking they use that is different.

If so may be that miscommunication why people say yes and no.


----------



## Chris Parker

No, Moonhill, the issue is that everyone else knows what they're talking about, and are coming from a level of experience, whereas you are coming from absolutely no experience, no understanding, some reading, and no comprehension.

These things have been explained to you again and again. If you still don't get it, that's frankly your problem. There is no simpler way to put things to you.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Moonhill

I really have no desire to extend this train wreck of a thread and I have no direct experience in Aikido but it is obvious that you are either not comprehending what has been written, not thoroughly reading what was written or blatantly being disagreeable to cause strife and division for whatever reason you have.

First, I do not think anyone in Aikido ever said Peace, Love and Harmony, Peace and harmony yes but not love…. But then I could be wrong there. But regardless I don’t think you have the slightest understanding of everything that is being said, as it applies to Aikido, when you read or hear harmony and peace.

Also if you want to train a system with more striking than Aikido might I suggest going and looking at another system since I seriously doubt Aikido will change to fit you. Might I suggest something like Jujutsu to Aikijutsu. Now like just about everyone else in the posts has said, futher discussion would be pointless and  you really need to get yourself to a dojo and train…that is if in fact you are serious about training and not just being intentionally irritating

Have a nice day


----------



## moonhill99

Chris Parker said:


> No, Moonhill, the issue is that everyone else knows what they're talking about, and are coming from a level of experience, whereas you are coming from absolutely no experience, no understanding, some reading, and no comprehension.
> 
> These things have been explained to you again and again. If you still don't get it, that's frankly your problem. There is no simpler way to put things to you.



Chris I'm going to try one last time than I'm pulling out of this discussion.

Here are quotes.


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## moonhill99

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I'd agree that the way my dojo does aikido is a bit more aggressive then some other aikido dojos but there's other styles of aikido out there that apply aikido  just as aggressive as we do.





tshadowchaser said:


> *yes that is what is taught now* but the *original Aikido was much more violent *and brutal  only evolving to this* softer art we see in most schools* over a period of many years.





elder999 said:


> _Atemi_ *is* striking (当て身) .....Ueshiba said, as I posted upthread, that :
> 
> 
> and, elsewhere, :
> 
> 
> *but this is also the man who said that his physical training ended in 1941, and that he'd been studying "the way of the gods" ever since.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *For the same reasons that people insist there is no striking in judo: because of the way it is taught by many people.*
> 
> *Aikido became popularized (as in, "spread across the world") during the time when Ueshiba was an old man who was emphasizing (correctly) positive values, peace, and harmony*. The  lack of emphasis on atemi grew out of this-there are those threads of aikido, like Iwama, that demonstrate more emphasis on atemi-but it's still aikikai aikido. In fact, I believe that  Seagal Sensei trained pretty extensively with an Iwama sensei (Kobayashi?), and this might account for some of what he does.Another thing that accounts for it is his size-he's 6'5", and uses his body to his advantage, which is as it should be.
> 
> As to the original post, I know he was still doing seminars as recently as 2011-I attended one in the Tenshin dojo in Taos, NM, back in 2004. I don't know that he's had any since 2011, though, or even if  there is still a Tenshin aikido dojo in Taos......
> 
> *In any case, we all can aspire to aikido's ideals of positivity: peace, harmony, good relationships.*....and practice atemi when necessary. Ideally, sure, I'd love to be able to defend myself without hurting an assailant. Realistically, that's just not likely: I'll just  never be that good....
> 
> EDIT: Dunn Sensei still has a dojo in Taos, but he apparently doesn't call it "Tenshin" anymore...



Here are some of quotes.


----------



## jks9199

moonhill99 said:


> Chris the frustration here in this thread and else where people say yes and no.
> 
> There is striking and other people say there is little striking.
> 
> It like saying it takes year for earth to go around the sun that is true and false. And when people see striking or rough fighting like chokeholds, kicks, elbow strikes,knee striking and such people say that is not Aikdo.



Perhaps, it's like the story of the blind men and the elephant -- with the answer shaped by the student's experience...


----------



## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> Here are some of quotes.


If you want aikido with strikes, it's out there-you have to find it.

If you want aikido that's all about peace and blending, it's easier to find, and might not work, but it *still has strikes.*


----------



## moonhill99

Other mismatch of information 

*Who says there is no striking in Aikido? There is in the advanced techniques. Strikes are usually not done so much from far away (as in sports Karate) as they are done at the same time you apply a joint lock or arm bar. By the time you hit the ground an accomplished Aikidoka should have hit you a few times as well. There are plenty of openings when doing a technique in which you can insert a number of strikes. In Aikido strikes are learned later as they are learned easier than the more complicated armbars and joint locks. This gives you more time to practice the hard stuff first. The strikes are easy to insert later when you are good with the hard stuff. *

other
*

On one hand, to strike can mean to assert force to the opponent, an anathema in Aikido. In this regard, there isn't any striking in Aikido, simply because the power of the strike does not come from the opponent. It doesn't mean the Aikido-ka can't take a shot at the opponent when the opportunity presents, but in so doing, the Aikido-ka isn't using Aikido. Such is not harmony. 

On the other hand, if nage/defender were to assume a pose whereby the defender's own momentum would cause his face to meet nage's fist, well, that's what we call "atemi". The difference is that in atemi, the significant source of power comes from the opponent, whereas in a common "strike" to hurt, the power comes from nage - the defender. In the latter case, this has the potential to off-balance the defender; the defender becomes the aggressor (not necessarily in the legal sense) and as such, can easily be reversed.*

other
*
The very philosophy of Aikido is of nonviolence. Ueshiba Morihei wanted it to be a spiritual practice as much as it is a self defense system, therefor it's primary focus is on Aiki-jutsu, or the skill of returning your opponent's energy and momentum against them. 

Make no mistake, though. Aikido is painful. It doesn't have seemingly the same strikes as other martial arts has, but there are contact methods that can cause pain. 

I wish people wouldn't underestimate Aikido so much. It's an excellent art that transcends a person. The fact people disrespect a nonviolent and peaceful style makes my horribly irksome over society's mentality for brutality.
*

other

*Okay it was explained to me this way. Aikido is a very pacifistic defensive martial art. They don't often strike, because aikido is reactionary and will take the strikes and grappling techniques and throw them out in a non injury inducing way. Such methods calls for grappling techniques rather than a strike as strikes are more likely to cause pain and injury(especially if used in aikido like countering way). *

* There are strikes called atemi in aikido and a famous sensei supposedly said, "90% of a fight is atemi"(kind of paraphrasing because I don't have the source in front of me), however atemi isn't a strike as we would think of it as in kickboxing sense. It's a strike designed to cause a reaction, like shift in weight or some kind of movement. Such action causes momentum in a person's body and aikido uses the changes in balance and opponent's own momentum to throw their opponent. So I understood the sensei's words as 90% of the time you are using atemi to create an opening, and that opening will be what aikidoka will use to finish the enemy.*

other

* I've been practising Aikido for about 6 months now and while I've enjoyed the training, I find myself getting a bit frustrated at the lack of striking and sparring involved. I just noticed that there is a Ju Jitsu place nearby so I'm planning on checking it out, but I'm wondering if I can use some of what I've learned in my Aikido training as I hear they are quite similar styles? *

other

*Aikido in the form we know it today has more of a spiritual edge to it (for want of a better word), but a lot of the actual waza originates from older Japanese Bujutsu systems such as Yagyu Shingan-ryu, Kashima Shinto-ryu and of course Daito-ryu.*

other

* There are different flavors of Aikido. I had tried one "Iwama Ryu" I believe, many many moons ago for a few months and did not like it at all. My friend on the other hand teaches "TenShin" Aikido, and it is totally different. It is a harder system in its application, more dirrect with it's techniques and uses smaller, tighter deflections. Although I do not train with him, we do share ideas and speak about how different paths are. *


----------



## moonhill99

Like I say I try one last time today for others here to clear this up and explain the information I read here and else where than I'm  pulling out of this discussion by tomorrow if it is not going any where.

May be I and some other people are getting aikido mixed up with Aiki principle.



Aiki martial arts principle - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

*Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the strength of their application of internal dynamics or Ki energy to affect techniques. Blending with an attacker's movements allows the Aiki practitioner to control the actions of the attacker with minimal effort. One applies aiki by understanding the rhythm and intent of the attacker to find the optimal position and timing to apply a counter-technique.*


1) *Blending not clashing*

Aiki typically describes an idea of oneness or blending in the midst of combat. In aikido it generally describes the more elevated notion of blending rather than clashing. "Blending" is often described even within aikido as "awase".[3] Many definitions for "aiki" seem to be based around "awase". Emphasis is upon joining with the rhythm and intent of the opponent in order to find the optimal position and timing with which to apply force. To blend with an attack, it is usually necessary to yield to incoming forces, so aiki is closely related to the principle of ju.
2) *Leading the assailant*

The aiki practitioner is able to lead the attack, and thus the attacker, into precarious positions. The influence over an assailant grows as the assailant's balance deteriorates. Body movements (tai sabaki) used for this may be large and obvious or small and subtle. Subtle weight shifting and the application of physical pressure to the assailant enable one to lead an assailant, keep him static, or keep him unbalanced (kuzushi) in order to employ one’s own technique. In the same manner, through deceptive movements, the aiki practitioner may negate a defence response from the assailant or create a defence response from the assailant that puts him even further into peril. There is a strong degree of _intent_, _will_ or _psychology_[4] to this aspect of domination. Mind and body are coordinated.
3) *Use of internal strength - Ki energy*

Kiai and aiki use the same kanji (transposed) and can be thought of as the inner and the outer aspect of the same principle. Kiai relates to the manifestation, emission or projection of ones own energy (internal strength), while Aiki relates to the merging of one's energy with the energy emitted from an external source (blending). Thus kiai is union with our own, internal energy while aiki is union with an attacker's energy. Kiai consists of all parts of the body being unified and directed to one intent. Aiki, ultimately has to do with a very good ability to manipulate kiai upon contact so that the practitioner blends his ki with the attacker’s ki instantaneously. This use of ki will involve the use of kokyu power, i.e. breathing is coordinated with movement.[5] Kokyu Ryoku is the natural power that can be produced when body and consciousness (mind) are unified. The term "kokyu" can also be used to describe a situation in which two opponent's are moving with appropriate timing.


----------



## Xue Sheng

moonhill99 said:


> Like I say I try one last time today for others here to clear this up and explain the information I read here and else where than I'm  pulling out of this discussion by tomorrow if it is not going any where.



Why wait, pullout now and do us all a favor


----------



## elder999

moonhill99 said:


> Like I say I try one last time today for others here to clear this up and explain the information I read here and else where than I'm  pulling out of this discussion by tomorrow if it is not going any where.



It's hopeless.


----------



## moonhill99

elder999 said:


> If you want aikido with strikes, it's out there-you have to find it.
> 
> If you want aikido that's all about peace and blending, it's easier to find, and might not work, but it *still has strikes.*



elder999 are you saying like some other people else where on the internet  that some other forms of aikido have more striking and rough.

Or the problem is with a lot of schools today?

Like some Judo schools hard to find that do self defense than sports Judo and old dirty Judo moves that are unsafe in sports and are banned in sports.


----------



## moonhill99

Xue Sheng said:


> Why wait, pullout now and do us all a favor



Tell me where I have reading comprehension problem where some of you are saying? I quoted the replies.

I have the information in front of me here as I type!!!

I read this thread over many times. This not stuff I'm just making up.

Why don't some of you reply to quotes or information I quoted and explain what is right or wrong or misunderstanding from me reading it. Than keep saying moonhill has a reading comprehension problem.

Take post 75 and 76 and explain what is right or wrong or misunderstanding in quotes than just saying moonhill as a reading comprehension problem and not understanding what we are telling him.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Do you train a martial art?


----------



## moonhill99

Xue Sheng said:


> Do you train a martial art?



If Xue Sheng or K-man train in aikido or are martial arts instructor of aikido or some other members here are train in aikido or are martial arts instructor of aikido that fine. Than I take it those schools have more striking.

It just I don't know where information I quoted in the above posts today is coming from. Are they all reading false comments on the internet and repeating it.

Is the striking they use in aikido different than boxer, karate or street fight and that is where the miscommunication problem comes from?

I looked at K-man video clip where I said it look more gritty less flowing and smoothing than aiki.

Even still the striking was not want you see in boxer, karate or street fight strike.

Could this where the miscommunication problem comes from?


----------



## Xue Sheng

moonhill99 said:


> If Xue Sheng or K-man train in aikido or are martial arts instructor of aikido or some other members here are train in aikido or are martial arts instructor of aikido that fine. Than I take it those schools have more striking.
> 
> It just I don't know where information I quoted in the above posts today is coming from. Are they all reading false comments on the internet and repeating it.
> 
> Is the striking they use in aikido different than boxer, karate or street fight and that is where the miscommunication problem comes from?
> 
> I looked at K-man video clip where I said it look more gritty less flowing and smoothing than aiki.
> 
> Even still the striking was not want you see in boxer, karate or street fight strike.
> 
> Could this where the miscommunication problem comes from?



Yeah, thanks, not what I asked.... Do you train a martial art?


----------



## moonhill99

K-man said:


> I'm assuming this is the sort of training you would like. OK, that's fine. These guys are good but it would have taken many years to get to that degree of proficiency. Most classes will be teaching basics until you get to at least black belt level and most students will never get to that level of expertise.
> 
> The Aikijutsu videos show the strikes. The training itself doesn't use strikes. That is exactly the same as good Aikido.
> 
> This is a video I have posted before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the type of Aikido you are looking for?



After looking at this video today I agree it is more rough and striking like other three videos I posted yesterday.

But is not the striking like boxer,karate or street fighter may be this where the information where people say there is little striking in aikido is coming from. Is striking in aikido is different than striking like a boxer,karate or street fighter.


----------



## moonhill99

There is striking here but it is more take down striking and different than striking you see in a street fight.

Like a boxer,karate or street fighter.

May be this is where some people say there is little striking in aikido.

That the striking in aikido is different type of striking.Not sure.







Not sure if chokeholds are used in aikido but I have seen Steven Seagal use it many times.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh, for crying out loud…. 

There is no contradiction in the quotes you provided, which leads me to believe that you aren't properly reading them, but reading what you expect them to say… additionally, you're still fixated on your own inaccurate ideas, and are now forcing those onto others (thinking that everyone else is thinking of some "other" type of atemi, as it's not what you think we'd think of). Bluntly, you have resisted all information given to you.

To add to the insult of ignoring the very answers to the questions you're posing, you're now ignoring questions from others. So, with the last hope of having some positive interaction here, can you answer Xue's question? 

Do you, or have you ever, actually trained in any martial art yourself?


----------



## tshadowchaser

in the posts you have asked us to look at it is stated a couple times that there are strikes in Aikido.  At no time in the is it said there are NO strikes. 
It has also been stated that depending on the specific school there may be more or less striking depending on at what stage of the development of the art the instructor or his instructor trained.
Just because striking is not mentioned in post 76 dose not imply that such a thing dose not exist.


moonhill99 said:


> Kiai relates to the manifestation, emission or projection of ones own energy (internal strength), while Aiki relates to the merging of one's energy with the energy emitted from an external source (blending). Thus kiai is union with our own, internal energy while aiki is union with an attacker's energy. Kiai consists of all parts of the body being unified and directed to one intent.


in the quote above is it possible that KIAI might refer to striking as well as other things


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## tshadowchaser

moonhill try looking at   Tsuki Iriminage MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community   did that man say striking?  are strikes being shown?


----------



## Argus

Moonhill, I have a very sincere piece of advise for you!  I think everyone else here does too, but I'll try communicating it in a nicer, more respectful way in hopes that it sticks!

I intend this advice in the most constructive way possible, and I believe it will benefit you more than any further posting you can do on this thread.

Now, as you might have gathered by my posts here, I also dislike conflicting information, and often butt heads with more experienced folks here. But I try to do so in the spirit of learning, and with full recognition of the likelihood that I don't know half of what I think I do.

The best thing you can do to answer your questions is simply to go train. And your questions won't be answered right away -- in fact, it might not be for many years down the road before they're answered. But empty your cup; assume you understand nothing, fundamentally, and go train. Whether there are strikes, or no strikes, whether it is soft or hard, go train. Do that for a long time. Eventually, you'll start to build enough experience and understanding to resolve these seemingly conflicting points of view.

No martial art, no matter how simple or complex, is without stark differences in opinion of how it should be applied. It's up to you to train and figure that out for yourself. But you won't find your answers through mere speculation, or the opinions of others on an internet forum. Go, get on the mat, and learn for yourself!

That's what everyone here has been suggesting, but might I suggest that they know what they're talking about! It doesn't really matter what you train in the end. Just start somewhere!

Best of luck in your martial endeavors -- if not in the rest of life, as well!  Just remember, it all starts with emptying your cup.


----------



## ST1Doppelganger

Palm smash to face about this thread. 

Moonhill it's simple if you want an art that concentrates on striking go do boxing or kickboxing if you want a joint locking/throwing art then take a ju jitsu root art. 

Simply put aikido has striking in it but concentrates more on the grappling aspect IMHO.


----------



## elder999

Here's Seagal sensei demonstrating aikido at a sambo tournament in Russia two days ago:


----------



## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, for crying out loud….
> 
> There is no contradiction in the quotes you provided, which leads me to believe that you aren't properly reading them, but reading what you expect them to say… additionally, you're still fixated on your own inaccurate ideas, and are now forcing those onto others (thinking that everyone else is thinking of some "other" type of atemi, as it's not what you think we'd think of). Bluntly, you have resisted all information given to you.
> 
> To add to the insult of ignoring the very answers to the questions you're posing, you're now ignoring questions from others. So, with the last hope of having some positive interaction here, can you answer Xue's question?
> 
> Do you, or have you ever, actually trained in any martial art yourself?




And like that...poof....moonhill99 is gone


----------



## elder999

elder999 said:


> Here's Seagal sensei demonstrating aikido at a sambo tournament in Russia two days ago:


_Interesting_ how his aikido looks, compared to, say, the early 90's.....


----------



## elder999

Xue Sheng said:


> And like that...poof....moonhill99 is gone


----------



## Xue Sheng

elder999 said:


>



That's where it came from  

And I was not sure anyone would notice


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## tyrant911

moonhill99 said:


> I know Steven Seagal was teaching Aikido the aggressive type of Aikido not sure what it is called.
> 
> Steven Seagal is from Lansing, Michigan and now living in Los Angeles. So I guess he has a dojo in Lansing and Los Angeles. Not sure what it is called or where his school is at or any web sites or videos on his schools.
> 
> But how do people like Steven Seagal teaching of Aikido? Is it too rough and gritty like?
> 
> Would Steven Seagal Aikido be more rough and gritty like Aikijujutsu and ninjutsu wrist locks and take downs?
> 
> Have people seen any youtube clips on how his schools is like? How they teach? The good and bad? Too aggressive type of Aikido or too mixed.



I found this pretty helpful in trying to find information about Sensei Steven Segals style. Hope you find this as enjoyable as I did:


----------



## Mazouni

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I've been studying Tenshin Aikido (Seagals Ideology or method of aikido) for almost a year now.
> 
> From my observations and experiences in the Tenshin style it differs from the more traditional aikido by being more compact and angular compared to some of the more traditional aikido schools.
> 
> Tenshin also has a couple extra deflections that the traditional schools dont seem to have as well.
> 
> Take note im a noob in aikido with a CMA background and these are just my personal observations of the differences that i see between the more traditional ideology and the Tenshin ideology.
> 
> Im also glad i found a Tenshin school since I enjoy training in it and it does greatly compliment my previous martial arts background.


From my understanding Take Sensei Aikido focus on realistic attacks,irmi,swordcuts and tai sabaki. Also there randori looks very different then traditional Aikido.


----------



## Ryback

Most of Steven Seagal Sensei's earlier students are now running their own dojos, Haruo Matsuoka Sensei is back in Japan, Larry Reynosa Sensei runs Makoto dojo, even Lenny Sly who is making a lot of noise on YouTube lately belongs to this lineage. 
As for Take Sensei himself, well he is not running a dojo so he is not teaching on a daily basis but he is doing seminars and demos (mainly in Russia) and he is still doing exams at Jaime Calderon's dojo... 
Well his Aikido looks a bit different lately because he is different in many ways, but as with all Aikido masters I think we should try to keep in our minds the image and technique they reflected when they were at their prime and approach that as best as possible....


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## now disabled

Ryback said:


> Lenny Sly who is making a lot of noise on YouTube lately belongs to this lineage.



yup he is lol 

If he'd actually stop saying what he thinks is wrong he'd be easier to take lol 

His concept and execution are not to bad (his ukes are helping him tho look at the feet in some and you'll see they are assisting lol) but he has not flow at all it is imo very mechanical but if it works for him and he getting the business from it that is his affair


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## Ryback

now disabled said:


> yup he is lol
> 
> If he'd actually stop saying what he thinks is wrong he'd be easier to take lol
> 
> His concept and execution are not to bad (his ukes are helping him tho look at the feet in some and you'll see they are assisting lol) but he has not flow at all it is imo very mechanical but if it works for him and he getting the business from it that is his affair


Yes I agree about Lenny, he is good, that's the truth but you are correct in what you say about him... 
He has been very rude towards one my Sensei's techniques in the past (not on YouTube) and though he apologized repeatedly to me personally, I can't stop thinking that he is trying to sell himself as the ultimate Aikido truth! Still, I like him though... Hahaha!


----------



## Headhunter

Ryback said:


> Most of Steven Seagal Sensei's earlier students are now running their own dojos, Haruo Matsuoka Sensei is back in Japan, Larry Reynosa Sensei runs Makoto dojo, even Lenny Sly who is making a lot of noise on YouTube lately belongs to this lineage.
> As for Take Sensei himself, well he is not running a dojo so he is not teaching on a daily basis but he is doing seminars and demos (mainly in Russia) and he is still doing exams at Jaime Calderon's dojo...
> Well his Aikido looks a bit different lately because he is different in many ways, but as with all Aikido masters I think we should try to keep in our minds the image and technique they reflected when they were at their prime and approach that as best as possible....


You don't have to say sensei after everyone's name especially when talking online


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## Ryback

Headhunter said:


> You don't have to say sensei after everyone's name especially when talking online


According to proper protocol it is the right thing to do but I'll keep that in mind,  if it becomes inconvenient...


----------



## Mazouni

Ryback said:


> Most of Steven Seagal Sensei's earlier students are now running their own dojos, Haruo Matsuoka Sensei is back in Japan, Larry Reynosa Sensei runs Makoto dojo, even Lenny Sly who is making a lot of noise on YouTube lately belongs to this lineage.
> As for Take Sensei himself, well he is not running a dojo so he is not teaching on a daily basis but he is doing seminars and demos (mainly in Russia) and he is still doing exams at Jaime Calderon's dojo...
> Well his Aikido looks a bit different lately because he is different in many ways, but as with all Aikido masters I think we should try to keep in our minds the image and technique they reflected when they were at their prime and approach that as best as possible....


 What I found very interesting is a lot of Seagal techniques from Tenshin Aikido you don't really see in traditional Aikido. Such as his hand deflections,irmi nage,yubi dori and nodotsukiage.


----------



## now disabled

Mazouni said:


> What I found very interesting is a lot of Seagal techniques from Tenshin Aikido you don't really see in traditional Aikido. Such as his hand deflections,irmi nage,yubi dori and nodotsukiage.



Irimi nage ummm yes you do lol that is just a basic entering throw. there are many many techs involving irimi both omote and ura. 
The other tech you quote are more leaning towards Daito ryu 
If you have been watching lenny sly then his vid (or at least part of it) on yubi dori then his initial entry is very like an entry for sankyo just he is using the fingers lol 

Any technique has variations and can be applied slightly differently but the entry and exit are basically the same. 
Hand deflections yes you do that all the time. Think if uke does shomen uchi, you are deflecting the hand if you go for say ikkyo ok you are going to control the elbow but you still are deflecting the hand. 

I could be wrong but more or the hand deflection thing came in during seagals rise in the movie making business as it looks good.

Neck throws are in Aikido I have seen Chiba and Tissier do them just slightly differently and more as a choke which is granted not a big thing in Aikido it more harks back again to Daito ryu 

I am not knocking Tenshin Aikido just don't get to taken in by the current stream of vids around


----------



## Headhunter

Ryback said:


> According to proper protocol it is the right thing to do but I'll keep that in mind,  if it becomes inconvenient...


I just cringe whenever i see it tbh. I mean in class I say what I've got to say to say but outside these people aren't anything special they're normal people just like the rest of us and I refuse to call anyone sir or sensei outside of a class setting


----------



## now disabled

Headhunter said:


> I just cringe whenever i see it tbh. I mean in class I say what I've got to say to say but outside these people aren't anything special they're normal people just like the rest of us and I refuse to call anyone sir or sensei outside of a class setting




it just a thing some do and some don't when referring to people. Just a personal thing I guess and each to their own


----------



## Ryback

Headhunter said:


> I just cringe whenever i see it tbh. I mean in class I say what I've got to say to say but outside these people aren't anything special they're normal people just like the rest of us and I refuse to call anyone sir or sensei outside of a class setting


Once I respect someone as a Sensei I always call him Sensei whether it's on the mat or off the mat. To me Sensei is a very special meaning and I don't accept anyone as such simply because he runs a dojo. 
So if he doesn't qualify according to my personal standards I never call him Sensei...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Ryback said:


> Once I respect someone as a Sensei I always call him Sensei whether it's on the mat or off the mat. To me Sensei is a very special meaning and I don't accept anyone as such simply because he runs a dojo.
> So if he doesn't qualify according to my personal standards I never call him Sensei...



So (and I'm not talking about any specific individual here) you think you're better qualified than the seniors within an organization to decide what titles people deserve?
I hope that's not what you're saying (though it certainly looks like you are. Because that would be incredibly arrogant.


----------



## Mazouni

now disabled said:


> Irimi nage ummm yes you do lol that is just a basic entering throw. there are many many techs involving irimi both omote and ura.
> The other tech you quote are more leaning towards Daito ryu
> If you have been watching lenny sly then his vid (or at least part of it) on yubi dori then his initial entry is very like an entry for sankyo just he is using the fingers lol
> 
> Any technique has variations and can be applied slightly differently but the entry and exit are basically the same.
> Hand deflections yes you do that all the time. Think if uke does shomen uchi, you are deflecting the hand if you go for say ikkyo ok you are going to control the elbow but you still are deflecting the hand.
> 
> I could be wrong but more or the hand deflection thing came in during seagals rise in the movie making business as it looks good.
> 
> Neck throws are in Aikido I have seen Chiba and Tissier do them just slightly differently and more as a choke which is granted not a big thing in Aikido it more harks back again to Daito ryu
> 
> I am not knocking Tenshin Aikido just don't get to taken in by the current stream of vids around


The way Seagal does irmi nage is more of a closeline. He comes right in, does not try get to behind the neck and throw. I have never seen that any traditional Aikido dojo do that.


----------



## now disabled

Mazouni said:


> The way Seagal does irmi nage is more of a closeline. He comes right in, does not try get to behind the neck and throw. I have never seen that any traditional Aikido dojo do that.



Are you meaning that there is no tenkan?


----------



## now disabled

Mazouni said:


> The way Seagal does irmi nage is more of a closeline. He comes right in, does not try get to behind the neck and throw. I have never seen that any traditional Aikido dojo do that.



I had a quick look at segal doing that and it is irimi nage omote the version you have maybe seen which is more common (it shouldn't be lol) is irimi nage ura 

Seagal was being kinda lazy as in both you should actually enter fully otherwise it really a pure closeline lol... When doing the omote version if you have it right then you don't in truth need to follow thru with what you describe as the closeline lol you can actually just pull the uke back and down he will go (or should if you have entered properly ) 

Both those techs are very basic Aikido and I don't know of any Ueshiba based that don't contain that but I guess I could be wrong


----------



## now disabled

Mazouni said:


> The way Seagal does irmi nage is more of a closeline. He comes right in, does not try get to behind the neck and throw. I have never seen that any traditional Aikido dojo do that.



Just a add on. Becareful from what era you are watching Seagal as the last vids I saw of him he is being lazy and only doing the things he can as his ummm mobility is somewhat restricted and he is going more for what he can do and show of at infact I just saw one of him throwing from a Hiji waza tech and honestly it was total crap no flow and it was his bulk that really put the uke over (and the uke did assist him) even one of the moves looked like it should be shiho nage omote but umm it wasn't kinda as again his present condition he couldn't move properly. 

His early stuff and the stuff he did before he got to look like the Michelin man was good and clean anything in the past maybe 5 years or so well not so clean.

Also be aware that some Aikido organisations call things by different names (techs I mean) but the basic irimi nage (both forms) are in all Ueshiba based Aikido (even in suwari waza)


----------



## Mazouni

now disabled said:


> Just a add on. Becareful from what era you are watching Seagal as the last vids I saw of him he is being lazy and only doing the things he can as his ummm mobility is somewhat restricted and he is going more for what he can do and show of at infact I just saw one of him throwing from a Hiji waza tech and honestly it was total crap no flow and it was his bulk that really put the uke over (and the uke did assist him) even one of the moves looked like it should be shiho nage omote but umm it wasn't kinda as again his present condition he couldn't move properly.
> 
> His early stuff and the stuff he did before he got to look like the Michelin man was good and clean anything in the past maybe 5 years or so well not so clean.
> 
> Also be aware that some Aikido organisations call things by different names (techs I mean) but the basic irimi nage (both forms) are in all Ueshiba based Aikido (even in suwari waza)


 Lenny Sly said in the video Seagal people are only people that use Kenjutsu hand deflections in Aikido.


----------



## hoshin1600

I'm not sure how others do irimi nage,but the way I learned was close to Seagal with the variant that my arm will rise under the chin first to lift, then down. The image is like an ocean wave. Rolling a little up to hook the chin then down.  Seagal being tall would not need to lift the chin as its automatic.


----------



## now disabled

hoshin1600 said:


> I'm not sure how others do irimi nage,but the way I learned was close to Seagal with the variant that my arm will rise under the chin first to lift, then down. The image is like an ocean wave. Rolling a little up to hook the chin then down.  Seagal being tall would not need to lift the chin as its automatic.



I think the confusion is between Irimi nage omote and Irimi nage ura. From what your describing is the omote version


----------



## now disabled

Mazouni said:


> Lenny Sly said in the video Seagal people are only people that use Kenjutsu hand deflections in Aikido.



99.99% of all Aikido is based on the sword so any deflection and hand movements are sword based so he is not fully right there


----------



## O'Malley

Mazouni said:


> Lenny Sly said in the video Seagal people are only people that use Kenjutsu hand deflections in Aikido.



What are "Kenjutsu hand deflections"? And what is Seagal's background in Kenjutsu? 

Btw Lenny Sly seems to break a few principles of effective technique (e.g. I don't see any hip power in the video and he moves forward instead of throwing at an angle), I'd like to see him try this "irimi nage" on a bigger partner...


----------



## now disabled

O'Malley said:


> What are "Kenjutsu hand deflections"? And what is Seagal's background in Kenjutsu?
> 
> Btw Lenny Sly seems to break a few principles of effective technique (e.g. I don't see any hip power in the video and he moves forward instead of throwing at an angle), I'd like to see him try this "irimi nage" on a bigger partner...



I think he using that word for a purpose as in marketing 

Does Seagal have Kenjutsu it a new one on me but I dunno 

The last part I'd agree with as it not really Irimi nage as I know it either ura or omote but he did enter and throw but it was strength not technique mind you a good part of the vid again was telling everyone that any other irimi nage is basically useless. I guess that is just him tho and how he views things


----------



## Mazouni

now disabled said:


> 99.99% of all Aikido is based on the sword so any deflection and hand movements are sword based so he is not fully right there





now disabled said:


> I think he using that word for a purpose as in marketing
> 
> Does Seagal have Kenjutsu it a new one on me but I dunno
> 
> The last part I'd agree with as it not really Irimi nage as I know it either ura or omote but he did enter and throw but it was strength not technique mind you a good part of the vid again was telling everyone that any other irimi nage is basically useless. I guess that is just him tho and how he views things


 I remember seeing this article in Black Belt magazine about Seagal in Kenjetsu.Steven Seagal - "Kenjutsu is very, very difficult to learn. It's the hardest thing that I've ever tried to learn." ~ Stickgrappler's Sojourn of Septillion Steps.


----------



## now disabled

Mazouni said:


> I remember seeing this article in Black Belt magazine about Seagal in Kenjetsu.Steven Seagal - "Kenjutsu is very, very difficult to learn. It's the hardest thing that I've ever tried to learn." ~ Stickgrappler's Sojourn of Septillion Steps.



Ok I read the article 

I dunno which school he trained in 

I do take issue that it only advanced Aikido that the hands cut like a sword that ain't true imo 

most masters in TJMA are quiet and not loud and brash so that is no surprise, actually any masters should be that way.

I'm not following what he means by the sword strike to the head face that no one can see coming. 

Learning to cut is kinda a prerequisite of any sword art and learning the cut to the head well you will in Aikido know that as men uchi or the side cut to the head as shomen uchi  so that is no surprise or major difficulty and it is a basic ok it can take a life time to perfect to cut but that could be as he is alluding to zen there but like in Aikido you could spend a lifetime only trying to perfect ikkyo so really no difference 

I still don't get the Kenjutsu deflecting hand techs you referred to but there again i we knew the school then we could all go have a look at it's curriculum and see 

He has not really said anything in that article that is not other than common knowledge really and the bit about being refused to be taught well some JTMA schools do require a letter of introduction but as he does not state the school and there are no clues unless you know. 

The draw and cut he refers to is kinda basic to any school of iai or batto do/jutsu (an I am not gonna start an argument over the different meaning between  iai and batto do/jutsu's I am not well enough verse to do that I think I know but I probably don't lol) again depending on the school if they taught that some do some don't, technically it is a different discipline. Kenjutsu can be an umberella term use for all Japanese sword arts (again it not tech correct imo but it is used) so until you know what school he studied it not easy to say.

I still really don't get the kenjutsu sword deflects at all 

The Bokken is used in Aikido as a way and method of teaching the thinking that the hands move in a fashion like holding a sword and cutting and the footwork too have a peak at Nishio style of Aikido and I think he was a deshi of Ueshiba but it may have been the second doshu as Ueshiba was in Iwama again by then an I don't know if Nishio was or was just purely at the  Aikikai Hombu. I do know he studied many arts to fairly high ranks and he di create his own form off iaido, as I said take a peak as that style of Aikido uses the bokken a lot


----------



## Ryback

now disabled said:


> Ok I read the article
> 
> I dunno which school he trained in
> 
> I do take issue that it only advanced Aikido that the hands cut like a sword that ain't true imo
> 
> most masters in TJMA are quiet and not loud and brash so that is no surprise, actually any masters should be that way.
> 
> I'm not following what he means by the sword strike to the head face that no one can see coming.
> 
> Learning to cut is kinda a prerequisite of any sword art and learning the cut to the head well you will in Aikido know that as men uchi or the side cut to the head as shomen uchi  so that is no surprise or major difficulty and it is a basic ok it can take a life time to perfect to cut but that could be as he is alluding to zen there but like in Aikido you could spend a lifetime only trying to perfect ikkyo so really no difference
> 
> I still don't get the Kenjutsu deflecting hand techs you referred to but there again i we knew the school then we could all go have a look at it's curriculum and see
> 
> He has not really said anything in that article that is not other than common knowledge really and the bit about being refused to be taught well some JTMA schools do require a letter of introduction but as he does not state the school and there are no clues unless you know.
> 
> The draw and cut he refers to is kinda basic to any school of iai or batto do/jutsu (an I am not gonna start an argument over the different meaning between  iai and batto do/jutsu's I am not well enough verse to do that I think I know but I probably don't lol) again depending on the school if they taught that some do some don't, technically it is a different discipline. Kenjutsu can be an umberella term use for all Japanese sword arts (again it not tech correct imo but it is used) so until you know what school he studied it not easy to say.
> 
> I still really don't get the kenjutsu sword deflects at all
> 
> The Bokken is used in Aikido as a way and method of teaching the thinking that the hands move in a fashion like holding a sword and cutting and the footwork too have a peak at Nishio style of Aikido and I think he was a deshi of Ueshiba but it may have been the second doshu as Ueshiba was in Iwama again by then an I don't know if Nishio was or was just purely at the  Aikikai Hombu. I do know he studied many arts to fairly high ranks and he di create his own form off iaido, as I said take a peak as that style of Aikido uses the bokken a lot


If I understand well I think what Lenny means about the Ken-jutsu hand deflections is that it is similar with the way you deflect the sword in Kumi tachi techniques... 
When someone thrust with the bokken we do not block it but we deflect it slightly using the side of the sword, not the cutting edge of the blade. 
If we deflect a tsuki using our sword on the left side of the opponent's blade (as we face him) and we guide the deflection with our left hand it translates to the Kiri-age hand deflection in tai-jutsu where we deflect a strike by sweeping it with our palm. 
If we deflect a tsuki using our sword on the left side of the opponent's blade (as we face him) this time guiding the deflection with our right hand, it translates to the Suri-age hand deflection, where we deflect a strike by sweeping it with the back of our hand. 
If we use a Kiri-gaeshi technique to deflect a Shomen Uchi cut with the sword, it translates to the Uke Nagaeshi, the "collapsing" hand deflection in tai-jutsu where we make positive contact with the striking arm of the opponent, deliberately collapsing using the elbow to deflect and enter to the inside, past beyond his arms rendering him unable to resist an Attemi or technique since he now has nothing to block you with... 
Well, I know it's confusing, too hard to explain verbally but I hope I offered my humble contribution to the discussion...


----------



## now disabled

Ryback said:


> If I understand well I think what Lenny means about the Ken-jutsu hand deflections is that it is similar with the way you deflect the sword in Kumi tachi techniques...
> When someone thrust with the bokken we do not block it but we deflect it slightly using the side of the sword, not the cutting edge of the blade.
> If we deflect a tsuki using our sword on the left side of the opponent's blade (as we face him) and we guide the deflection with our left hand it translates to the Kiri-age hand deflection in tai-jutsu where we deflect a strike by sweeping it with our palm.
> If we deflect a tsuki using our sword on the left side of the opponent's blade (as we face him) this time guiding the deflection with our right hand, it translates to the Suri-age hand deflection, where we deflect a strike by sweeping it with the back of our hand.
> If we use a Kiri-gaeshi technique to deflect a Shomen Uchi cut with the sword, it translates to the Uke Nagaeshi, the "collapsing" hand deflection in tai-jutsu where we make positive contact with the striking arm of the opponent, deliberately collapsing using the elbow to deflect and enter to the inside, past beyond his arms rendering him unable to resist an Attemi or technique since he now has nothing to block you with...
> Well, I know it's confusing, too hard to explain verbally but I hope I offered my humble contribution to the discussion...




is all part of Aikido 

Lenny sly is just using a word as a marketing thing


----------



## Ryback

now disabled said:


> is all part of Aikido
> 
> Lenny sly is just using a word as a marketing thing


Sure it's all part of Aikido, no doubt about it!! Lenny is usually trying to create a hype about him and most of this is marketing but I think he was also trying to explain how hand deflections have their roots to sword practice... 
Steven Seagal by the way has studied a Ken-jutsu ryu and his has a black belt degree. I don't remember the name of the ryu but his teacher was the one who introduced him to Toshiro Mifune in order for Seagal Sensei to be martial arts coordinator in the film "the challenge". 
At Mifune's reluctance to use a white person as a martial arts coordinator, Seagal's sword teacher answered "this guy can teach the sword same as, if not better,  than all the Japanese teachers I know..."


----------



## pgsmith

Ryback said:


> Steven Seagal by the way has studied a Ken-jutsu ryu and his has a black belt degree. I don't remember the name of the ryu but his teacher was the one who introduced him to Toshiro Mifune in order for Seagal Sensei to be martial arts coordinator in the film "the challenge".
> At Mifune's reluctance to use a white person as a martial arts coordinator, Seagal's sword teacher answered "this guy can teach the sword same as, if not better, than all the Japanese teachers I know..."



  Truth or hearsay? Recounting stories is fun, but you can't act as if they're true without producing some sort of proof. Too many people on-line do exactly this, so it makes it difficult to separate fact from fiction. It's OK to say that you heard or read that this happened. It's NOT OK to present it as truth unless you've got verifiable proof to back up your assertions.


----------



## now disabled

Ryback said:


> Sure it's all part of Aikido, no doubt about it!! Lenny is usually trying to create a hype about him and most of this is marketing but I think he was also trying to explain how hand deflections have their roots to sword practice...
> Steven Seagal by the way has studied a Ken-jutsu ryu and his has a black belt degree. I don't remember the name of the ryu but his teacher was the one who introduced him to Toshiro Mifune in order for Seagal Sensei to be martial arts coordinator in the film "the challenge".
> At Mifune's reluctance to use a white person as a martial arts coordinator, Seagal's sword teacher answered "this guy can teach the sword same as, if not better,  than all the Japanese teachers I know..."



It would be interesting to know which school he studied as he will appear on their enrollment records


----------



## Ryback

pgsmith said:


> Truth or hearsay? Recounting stories is fun, but you can't act as if they're true without producing some sort of proof. Too many people on-line do exactly this, so it makes it difficult to separate fact from fiction. It's OK to say that you heard or read that this happened. It's NOT OK to present it as truth unless you've got verifiable proof to back up your assertions.


Proof??  Well I wasn't there but you can find that specific information everywhere... 
Steven Seagal Sensei is known to have a 7th Dan in Aikido, Black Belt in Karate and also black belt in kenjutsu, it's not something I am claiming... 
You could find this information on printed magazines about martial arts long before Google became the main source of every knowledge...


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## Ryback

now disabled said:


> It would be interesting to know which school he studied as he will appear on their enrollment records


I'm not sure but I have heard that it was Yagyu Shinkage Ryu... But I don't know for sure... Nor have I ever heard the name of his teacher only when he mentioned an Ono Sensei but I can't be sure...


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## Dirty Dog

Ryback said:


> Proof??  Well I wasn't there but you can find that specific information everywhere...
> Steven Seagal Sensei is known to have a 7th Dan in Aikido, Black Belt in Karate and also black belt in kenjutsu, it's not something I am claiming...
> You could find this information on printed magazines about martial arts long before Google became the main source of every knowledge...



With no dog in the fight whatsoever, I'm just going to point out that those magazines are not always exactly pinnacles of journalistic accuracy. They've certainly been guilty of doing nothing more than reprinting what they're told without any actual confirmation. Two cases (just as examples): Frank Dux and George Dillman. A pair widely considered among the greatest martial frauds of all time. But with articles about them in "respected" magazines.


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## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> Frank Dux and George Dillman. A pair widely considered among the greatest martial frauds of all time. But with articles about them in "respected" magazines



Wasn't Dillman (at least initially) an actual serious and respected practitioner though?


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## pgsmith

Ryback said:


> Proof??  Well I wasn't there but you can find that specific information everywhere...
> Steven Seagal Sensei is known to have a 7th Dan in Aikido, Black Belt in Karate and also black belt in kenjutsu, it's not something I am claiming...
> You could find this information on printed magazines about martial arts long before Google became the main source of every knowledge...


  But what I'm pointing out that. as far as I've ever heard, nobody has ever been able to verify his claims of "having a black belt in kenjutsu". What was printed in the martial arts magazines was just what Steven Seagal told them. Martial arts magazines were not, nor are they today, outstanding bastions of investigative journalism.   You presented information as fact simply because you read it or heard it somewhere. I was just asking you to put in proper qualifiers.



Dirty Dog said:


> With no dog in the fight whatsoever, I'm just going to point out that those magazines are not always exactly pinnacles of journalistic accuracy. They've certainly been guilty of doing nothing more than reprinting what they're told without any actual confirmation. Two cases (just as examples): Frank Dux and George Dillman. A pair widely considered among the greatest martial frauds of all time. But with articles about them in "respected" magazines.



  Yep, I was just thinking about them both.



pdg said:


> Wasn't Dillman (at least initially) an actual serious and respected practitioner though?



  Yes he was, and he trained with some really impressive people. Then he took off down his "kyusho jutsu" and no touch knock out rabbit hole. Still a lot of people that want to believe that stuff and want to learn to throw chi balls, and he uses his past associations and training to make them believe (and pay up the big bucks!).


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## hoshin1600

Seagal a "black belt in kenjutsu"....
im not as knowledgeable as others on this but just putting the concepts of holding a black belt within a koryu style seems a little odd to me.  but that aside, going by Seagals other far fetched claims, one has to have some serious doubts about its validity.
but how could we doubt someone who is a re incarnate Tulku,  a former CIA/ FBI secret agent, a native American medicine man and one of the world foremost experts on historical Japanese swords?


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## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> Wasn't Dillman (at least initially) an actual serious and respected practitioner though?



He was, and trained under some excellent people. Before he went off into fantasy land.


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## now disabled

Ryback said:


> I'm not sure but I have heard that it was Yagyu Shinkage Ryu... But I don't know for sure... Nor have I ever heard the name of his teacher only when he mentioned an Ono Sensei but I can't be sure...



Just be careful bro as the way I read that article he was kinda saying in was a Koryu.  That is a very very very well known ryu I don't know the lineage but the sword guys probably will and they will have enrollment records.

just be wary of him claiming certain things, as he has made some ummm, claims that well are not true or at least are questionable. 

Just be careful that if he is not trying to muddy the waters as O'sensei did get licences from Yagyu Shingan ryu ( I may be wrong ) and the bit I do have a slight issue with is if he was that well connected in Japan and around the folks he says he was why did he have to door step that sensei as surely he would have been able to get a letter of introduction. I am not having a go at you my friend I just think...... well muddy waters lol


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## hoshin1600

I'm curious as to the black belt in karate.  That is within my sphere of competence and I have some heavy doubts.


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## now disabled

Ryback said:


> I'm not sure but I have heard that it was Yagyu Shinkage Ryu... But I don't know for sure... Nor have I ever heard the name of his teacher only when he mentioned an Ono Sensei but I can't be sure...




I know you rate seagal highly 

I did a bit of digging around and asked a few folks I know and none of them seem to know which sword school 

However I did find out something that might be of interest you are aware that the dojo he claimed to set up was in fact his first wife's families dojo so It is highly contentious that he opened a dojo. 

I am not casting muck at all but my friend if he does hold sword grades it would be interesting to find out when he got them.


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## Ryback

now disabled said:


> Just be careful bro as the way I read that article he was kinda saying in was a Koryu.  That is a very very very well known ryu I don't know the lineage but the sword guys probably will and they will have enrollment records.
> 
> just be wary of him claiming certain things, as he has made some ummm, claims that well are not true or at least are questionable.
> 
> Just be careful that if he is not trying to muddy the waters as O'sensei did get licences from Yagyu Shingan ryu ( I may be wrong ) and the bit I do have a slight issue with is if he was that well connected in Japan and around the folks he says he was why did he have to door step that sensei as surely he would have been able to get a letter of introduction. I am not having a go at you my friend I just think...... well muddy waters lol


Well, as I said I wasn't there, I really don't know I'm just mentioning some information. 
Let's see if someone else has a more positive bit of information, I would like to see some evidence too...


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## Ryback

now disabled said:


> I know you rate seagal highly
> 
> I did a bit of digging around and asked a few folks I know and none of them seem to know which sword school
> 
> However I did find out something that might be of interest you are aware that the dojo he claimed to set up was in fact his first wife's families dojo so It is highly contentious that he opened a dojo.
> 
> I am not casting muck at all but my friend if he does hold sword grades it would be interesting to find out when he got them.


I rate Seagal Sensei highly because of what I see in his technique. It has nothing to do with his claims or his Hollywood stardom or the fact that we both wear our hair long(haha)... 
Well, from what I know it wasn't the Dojo that belonged to his wife's father but the building in which he opened Tenshin Dojo in Osaka... 
As about his rank, well I don't doubt it because he looks like he is a pretty good aikidoka, so....
In our dojo we don't follow that ranking system anyway, so I don't judge people by their rank but from what I see, through whatever humble experience I have...


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## now disabled

Ryback said:


> I rate Seagal Sensei highly because of what I see in his technique. It has nothing to do with his claims or his Hollywood stardom or the fact that we both wear our hair long(haha)...
> Well, from what I know it wasn't the Dojo that belonged to his wife's father but the building in which he opened Tenshin Dojo in Osaka...
> As about his rank, well I don't doubt it because he looks like he is a pretty good aikidoka, so....
> In our dojo we don't follow that ranking system anyway, so I don't judge people by their rank but from what I see, through whatever humble experience I have...




His Aikido rank stands up it the rest that may not


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## hoshin1600

now disabled said:


> However I did find out something that might be of interest you are aware that the dojo he claimed to set up was in fact his first wife's families dojo so It is highly contentious that he opened a dojo.



details details details,,,wording is very important.


Martial Arts » Steven Seagal Official Website
_Steven moved to Japan in his late teens and became the first foreigner_ to operate_ an Aikido dojo in Japan._
_Steven was trained by Harry Ishisaka and received 1st dan degree or Shodan under the direction of Koichi Tohei.
He continued to train in Aikido as a student of Seiseki Abe, Koichi Tohei (to whose Aikido organization, Ki Society, Seagal refused to join in favor of staying with the Aikikai), Kisaburo Osawa, Hiroshi Isoyama and the second doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

When Stevens then wife, Miyako’s father retired from his job as an instructor, Seagal became the new head of the organization known as Tenshin Aikido in Osaka (affiliated with the Aikikai).

_
AIKIDO WORLD BLOG: Steven Seagal.  The best or worst thing ever to happen to Aikido?

_Seagal developed his aikido career in Japan in the mid 1970s
It is confirmed that Seagal moved to Japan around the time of his marriage, and changed affiliation from Koichi Tohei's Ki Society and Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido to the Hombu Aikikai. Seagal did factually battle the yakuza (Japanese mafia) over the rights to the Tenshin Dojo, which his wife's father lost in a gambling game. [citation needed] Older students such as Jimmy Berkley and Nick Scoggins have verified Seagal's encounters with mafiosi who would come to the dojo looking to intimidate him. The debt eventually went away, and Seagal was eventually promoted to go-dan (5th degree). He was the dojo-cho (chief instructor) of the dojo until he left in 1982, 
_
so it seems that when the father in law Fujitani stepped down for what ever reason,, it was his daughter who should have owned and operated the dojo, she trained directly under O sensei and received her Black belt from him.  something due to the culture gave Steven precedence over her as the "head" of the dojo..thus making him the first on Japanese to operate an Aikido dojo.
she then Co-founded the next dojo with him.  so it appears to me she had the clout and credentials but maybe because she was a women (and that just isnt done)  she was placed second to seagal.


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## hoshin1600

now disabled said:


> His Aikido rank stands up it the rest that may not



even that,, while legit on paper does not come without its own dubious story of how it was attained.  
but given that i have a severe dislike of the guy,  his Aikido is solid,, or was as the case may be.


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## now disabled

hoshin1600 said:


> even that,, while legit on paper does not come without its own dubious story of how it was attained.
> but given that i have a severe dislike of the guy,  his Aikido is solid,, or was as the case may be.




Hmmmm sorry my wording was off a bit 

His first wife did he own set of Aikido DVD's and a book. Which I don't know if it been translated but lol and this is very unusual for a Japanese woman she had a right go at him in it so what you say as regards dubious might make sense


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## now disabled

The First Mrs Seagal


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## hoshin1600

now disabled said:


> Hmmmm sorry my wording was off a bit
> 
> His first wife did he own set of Aikido DVD's and a book. Which I don't know if it been translated but lol and this is very unusual for a Japanese woman she had a right go at him in it so what you say as regards dubious might make sense



i was referring to something totally removed from his ex wife.  its not something worth getting into but most practitioners have a teacher and can point to them and say ..so and so was my teacher.  Seagal has a little difficulty doing that.  i can say i trained Shin Shin Toitsu with Ed Haupt and A.A.A under Fumio Toyoda.  when people are fuzzy about things like that you gotta wonder why.


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## Mazouni

Seagal martial arts training can be very conventional . However,he is a very highly skilled Aikido practitioner and he has done a lot to Aikido and martial arts community and made in grow. In my opinion Seagal fixed a lot gaps he saw in Aikido.


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