# Wny does EPAK have Grandmasters?



## Carol (Sep 7, 2006)

Caught a post on KenpoTalk that mentioned how Mr. Parker associated different titles to the different degrees of BB.  

Example (borrowed from Mr. Billings' website)

1st Black Junior Instructor 
2nd Black Assistant Instructor 
3rd Black Head Instructor 
4th Black Senior Instructor 
5th Black Associate Professor 
6th Black Professor 
7th Black Senior Professor 
8th Black Associate Master 
9th Black Master 
10th Black Senior Master of the Art 




If a 10th Black is Senior Master of the Art, then why are the nosebleed-ranked folks such as Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, and others referring to themselves [at least, on their own websites] as Grandmasters instead of Senior Masters of the Art?

If I were to be cynical, I'm sure I could come up with reasons as to why this was done...but I was curious to see if by chance this was done for reaons other than that.

This is Ed Parker's naming system for the different degrees, yes?


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## Hand Sword (Sep 7, 2006)

It's all part of the marketing process.


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## HKphooey (Sep 7, 2006)

It is just a title. 

I personally have never heard Larry Tatum refer to himself as Grandmaster Tatum.  He has been fine with Mr. or Master Tatum.  

And I agree with Hand Sword, Marketing 101.  

Garbage Man or Sanitational Engineer, which sounds better to you?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 7, 2006)

Definately it is marketing.  While I do not agree with it unfortuantely I can understand it.


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## Carol (Sep 7, 2006)

HKphooey said:


> It is just a title.
> 
> I personally have never heard Larry Tatum refer to himself as Grandmaster Tatum. He has been fine with Mr. or Master Tatum.
> 
> ...


 


HKphooey said:


> It is just a title.
> 
> I personally have never heard Larry Tatum refer to himself as Grandmaster Tatum. He has been fine with Mr. or Master Tatum.
> 
> ...


 
But...but....but....but....that's not the way Mr. Parker did it!

:roflmao:
:roflmao:

And I always thought that if I referred to Huk as "Grandmaster Planas" I'd be the next one called to be uke. 

And don't even get me started on misuse of the term engineer... :rofl:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 7, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> Caught a post on KenpoTalk that mentioned how Mr. Parker associated different titles to the different degrees of BB.
> 
> Example (borrowed from Mr. Billings' website)
> 
> ...


 
Historically the Grandmaster is a title given to the highest ranking person in an art or association.  Therefore while "Senior Master of the Arts" is a title for the number of degrees in kenpo, "Grandmaster" is a title for anyone in any art (not just kenpo) that has the highest rank (position) in his or her art or association.  It's more of a martial arts thing than just a kenpo thing.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2006)

Yes, it has to do with being head of your style or at least your own organization.  IF you establish an organization or make some changes and call what you do something different from what it was, then you are the Grandmaster. 

And yes, I would put this up there in the realm of "Marketing 101", and perhaps ego as well.  Not to disparage the skill and knowledge of these people, all of whom I am sure could kick my butt up and down the hall in their sleep.  I just find a lot of the rank and titles being thrown around and seized upon a bit silly.  I swear, sometimes it seems you can't throw a stone without hitting another 10th degree grandmaster of some sort, kenpo and otherwise...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 7, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, it has to do with being head of your style or at least your own organization. IF you establish an organization or make some changes and call what you do something different from what it was, then you are the Grandmaster.
> 
> And yes, I would put this up there in the realm of "Marketing 101", and perhaps ego as well. Not to disparage the skill and knowledge of these people, all of whom I am sure could kick my butt up and down the hall in their sleep. I just find a lot of the rank and titles being thrown around and seized upon a bit silly. I swear, sometimes it seems you can't throw a stone without hitting another 10th degree grandmaster of some sort, kenpo and otherwise...


 
All this talk about titles coming from a "Martial Talk Senior Master", Hypocrite.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> All this talk about titles coming from a "Martial Talk Senior Master", Hypocrite.


 
well I gotta get my rank SOMEHOW!  heh heh..


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## HKphooey (Sep 7, 2006)

The baddest Grandmaster of them all...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 7, 2006)

HKphooey said:


> The baddest Grandmaster of them all...


 
But then someone took his style and made some changes of their own and took the title "Funkmaster"


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## HKphooey (Sep 7, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> But then someone took his style and made some changes of their own and took the title "Funkmaster"


 

Hee hee
:rofl:


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## Sigung86 (Sep 7, 2006)

Got a call last night from a new prospective student. He's coming to interview tonight. He did Kenpo in Phoenix, but moved back here. There aren't any EPAK schools that are anywhere even remotely close to me, so I'm the bessus' there is around here. :rofl:

He asked what he should call me... After some consideration, I told him, "You can call me what my Mom and Dad called me"...

He: "Dan"?

Me: "No ... You can call me, Sir". :rofl:

Then indicated that was a joke. He laughed loudly and longly. I think we're gonna get along just fine.

Most altruistically yours,

Dan Farmer,
Great-Senior-Outrageously-High-up-there -Googalymoogah-Grand-Master-of-Dynamic Kenpo Concepts & Charter Member and-Great-High-Epopt-Whoofa-Doofa-Muckety-Muck-of- the-First-Church-of-the-Immaculate-Misconception-and-Presumptuous- Assumption-Bowling-Team-Meetings-every-Thursday-night-at-Freds Bowl-a-rama-in-the-snack-bar


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 7, 2006)

Sigung86 said:


> Most altruistically yours,
> 
> Dan Farmer,
> Great-Senior-Outrageously-High-up-there -Googalymoogah-Grand-Master-of-Dynamic Kenpo Concepts & Charter Member and-Great-High-Epopt-Whoofa-Doofa-Muckety-Muck-of- the-First-Church-of-the-Immaculate-Misconception-and-Presumptuous- Assumption-Bowling-Team-Meetings-every-Thursday-night-at-Freds Bowl-a-rama-in-the-snack-bar



So now I have to call you the GSOHUTGGMoDKCCMaGHEWDMMotFCotIMaPABTMeTnaFBitsn
?

Or can I just stick with Dan?
:matrix:

Hehe
And yo! You didn't get back to me on which patches you wanted.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 7, 2006)

Oh yes... almost forgot to answer the question. 

My instructors use an entirely different curriculum, but were amongst SGM Parker's senior students. So - since it's a different curriculum, they have the right as 10th Degrees to carry whichever title they wish. Both carry a Grandmaster title, but neither use it either conversationally or in print. Whenever either one of them calls me or emails me, they say, Hi Steve, it's Chuck...or Hi Steve, it's Vic. As their students, we maintain the practice of referring to them by their IKCA titles - Senior Grand Master Sullivan and Grand Master Le Roux. But it's always nice to see the twinge of "Dammit I hate being called that - just call me by my name" show up on their faces. For all they've accomplished and all right they both have to claim the titles - they're both extremely humble individuals and I feel privileged to call them my teachers.


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## bujuts (Sep 7, 2006)

It doesn't, or at least, shouldn't.  No one is teaching EPAK because no one is "EP".

Any grandmaster (not a self appointed title btw, unless the ego is involved) is obviously teaching their own understanding of kenpo, and the ones to whom this string of posts refers were students of the SGM for varying lengths of time and at varying levels of understanding of AK.

They all have their own system, but I seriously dobut anyone is claiming to be teaching "EPAK" as EP taught it, without their own developments interwoven into the system.  Frankly, if someone is a 10th, then I would serious reservations about them if they _didn't_ claim it as their own interpretation of the system.

Ultimately, I suppose it lies on how we define "EPAK", though.  But, like all rank, even the fat stripes mean widely varying things.

Personally, I just love being low rank.  Show up, line up, shut up, train, go home.  

Salute,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Doc (Sep 8, 2006)

Funny, I have a title but it took me a moment to remember it. On paper, its "Senior Master Professor," or SMP for short. No naked 'masters,' grand, senior, or otherwise while I'm alive. Mostly they just call me "Doc" and I wear the same belt as everyone else. Plain black. "Stripes? We don't need no stinkin stripes." and my Grand Teacher passed away and no one can wear his title.


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## Hand Sword (Sep 8, 2006)

In the real sense of things: AMEN to that statement! He is sorely missed!


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## Sigung86 (Sep 8, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> So now I have to call you the GSOHUTGGMoDKCCMaGHEWDMMotFCotIMaPABTMeTnaFBitsn
> ?
> 
> Or can I just stick with Dan?
> ...


 
Lowly Earthworm!!!!!  You left off the last "b"!!!!  I guess there is no communication among equals after all?  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I replied to your email.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 8, 2006)

Bah. I hit the N instead of the B. So sue me


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## Sigung86 (Sep 11, 2006)

I've kind of given this a bit of though, and after a slight bit of research, have come to the following conclusion regarding the use of the term Master.  Back in the day, the term "Master" was a term of reverence used for the extremely senior person(s) in the art.

"Master" was a title given to the recipient by approbation of her/his students, and peers, but was not an *OFFICIAL *rank.  One of the shortcomings that I see with the assignment of rank to the term master is that most everyone wants to be one of *THEM* ...  Even only if involved in the fine art of putting worms on hooks to catch fish.... 

And so, we now have the situation whereby everyonE who is anyone is a Master of some sort.  Some even have and use the titles applied as defined by SGM Ed Parker.

In that case, I liken them, in my tiny shell-like mind to the ranks as applied in the military to the ranks of Colonel and General (except for the Navy which uses a totally alien rank concept  )

A Lieutenant Colonel and a Colonel (Here after called a "Full Bird" to differentiate between them and Lieutenant Colonels, aka "Light Colonels)...
Both of which are entitled to the courtesy rank name of Colonel.  Except for Kentucky Colonels, Auctioneers who carry the nom-de-guerre of Colonel, and corn, which is a totally different type of Kernel and no one salutes a Corn Kernel.

Then ... In keeping with the philosophy of "more is less" that we use in traditional belt ranking titles, 3rd brown is less than 2nd brown is less than 1st brown ... The General ranks are (again with exception of Navy rank which is really from the Martian Military):

Brigadier General - Lowest 
Major General - next highest
Lieutenant General - even a little bit higher
General - Last but not least...

Interestingly, in the Non-general ranks a Major out ranks a Lieutenant, much as in the black belt ranks where a 2nd black is higher than a third... While at the brown belt ranks 3rd is lower than 2nd is lower than 1st.

A little reverse psychology for some reason of logic that escapes me.  Perhaps to continue with the allegory of the degrees of rank, the 3, 2, 1 designation on the Brown belts is indicative of the 3, 2, 1 countdown of NASA fame which is preparatory to a hopefully successful launch where in the term zero, or launch indicates a take off and then the numbers (speed, altitude, etc) all increment in a positive fashion, 1, 2, 3,... as in increasing numbers on the Black Belt side of rank.

Ahem ... but I digress.  The Many formal terms used to title the wearer as a General is dependent upon the number of stars on her/his shoulder boards, or collars.  Nonetheless, the "generally" used term for all these various grades of general is ... er .... mmmm ....  "General".  

And so ... Regardless of rank:

8th Black = Associate *Master *
9th Black = *Master *
10th Black = Senior *Master* of the Art 

I am relatively certain that _*ALL*_ the owners of the  *rank** that uses the title of *MASTER *in some shape or form, are quite willing to dispense with said title for expediency, and the fact that, everyone knows their place in the "*Pecking Order*"**. :rofl:

*Several on-line Thesaurus' use give the following synomyms for the word, *RANK*:

bad, dank, disagreeable, disgusting, evil-smelling, feculent, fetid, foul, funky*, fusty*, gamy*, graveolent, gross*, high, humid, loathsome, mephitic, moldy, musty, nasty, nauseating, noisome, noxious, obnoxious, off, offensive, olid, pungent, putrescent, putrid, rancid, reeking, repulsive, revolting, smelly, sour, stale, strong, strong-smelling, tainted, turned
coarse, dense, excessive, extreme, exuberant, fertile, flourishing, fructiferous, grown, high-growing, junglelike, lavish, lush, luxuriant, luxurious, overabundant, overgrown, productive, profuse, prolific, rampant, rich, semitropical, tropical, vigorous, wild,  arrant, blatant, capital, complete, conspicuous, consummate, downright, egregious, excessive, extravagant, flagrant, glaring, gross*, noticeable, outright, outstanding, perfect, positive, rampant, sheer, thorough, total, undisguised, unmitigated, utter,abusive, atrocious, coarse, crass, dirty, filthy, foul, gross*, indecent, nasty, obscene, outrageous, raunchy, scurrilous, shocking, smutty, wicked.ancestry, authority, birth, blood, cachet, capacity, caste, circumstance, class, classification, condition, consequence, degree, dignity, distinction, division, echelon, estate, esteem, family, footing, grade, hierarchy, level, nobility, note, order, paramountcy, parentage, _***PECKING ORDER*_, pedigree, place, position, primacy, privilege, quality, reputation, rug-ranking, seniority, situation, slot, sort, sovereignty, sphere, state, station, stature, status, stock, stratum, supremacy, type,echelon, file, formation, group, hierarchy, line, queue, range, row, sequence, series, string, tier,align, arrange, array, assign, assort, button down*, class, dispose, establish, estimate, evaluate, fix*, give precedence, grade, include, judge, line up, list, locate, marshal, order, peg, pigeonhole*, place, position, put, put away, range, rank out, rate, regard, settle, size up, sort, tab, typecast, valuate, value,antecede, be classed, be worth, belong, come first, count among, forerun, go before, have supremacy, outrank, precede, stand,common run, common soldiery, common sort, forces, grass roots, majority, plebeians, proletariat, ranks,


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 11, 2006)

Um...Dan were you sniffing glue again?  I'm actually quite impressed you could come up with that many variations in syntax and usage for the various ways to use "kernel". Nicely done.


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## Carol (Sep 11, 2006)

And then there is the OS kernel, the most powerful - and vulnerable - part of a computer operating system.

(sorry) :-offtopic


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## RichK (Sep 11, 2006)

Doc said:


> Funny, I have a title but it took me a moment to remember it. On paper, its "Senior Master Professor," or SMP for short. No naked 'masters,' grand, senior, or otherwise while I'm alive. Mostly they just call me "Doc" and I wear the same belt as everyone else. Plain black. "Stripes? We don't need no stinkin stripes." and my Grand Teacher passed away and no one can wear his title.


No, no, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No naked masters!


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## Carol (Sep 11, 2006)

RichK said:


> No, no, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No naked masters!


 
:lfao: Indeed!


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 30, 2006)

To quote Ron White...

"Things that make ya go...*BLLLLELEEEEGH*" (Shakes head vigorously in protest.)


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## exile (Sep 30, 2006)

I'm cracking up reading this thread... why can't we have exchanges like this (sometimes) in the TKD and Karate fora?? Is it just a kempo thing??


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## Carol (Oct 3, 2006)

exile said:


> I'm cracking up reading this thread... why can't we have exchanges like this (sometimes) in the TKD and Karate fora?? Is it just a kempo thing??


 
We're just cool like that.   :ultracool


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## CoryKS (Oct 3, 2006)

I dunno... having different degrees of "Master" bugs me in the same way that Starbucks' "the small one is the tall" coffee sizes bug me.  "I'm a master but hey, check out _that _guy, he's a super master."  It's like when people describe an item as "more unique."  But I'm pedantic like that.

HKPhooey:  Is a Grandmaster higher than a JamMaster?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 3, 2006)

CoryKS said:


> Is a Grandmaster higher than a JamMaster?


 
Yes it is.  Aspiring Grandmasters are known as JamMaster and FunkMaster respectively


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## John Brewer (Oct 4, 2006)

Where does mixmaster come into it?


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## CoryKS (Oct 4, 2006)

Crane557 said:


> Where does mixmaster come into it?


 
If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between JamMaster and Human Beat Box.


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## John Brewer (Oct 4, 2006)

Ahh! I see.


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