# Are all these techs needed?



## pineapple head (Aug 3, 2003)

I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian: 
Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?

Gary.


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## stickarts (Aug 3, 2003)

The way I think of it is this way.
Basic self defense involves studying only the most probable moves, while studying an entire art involves also studying all of the possible moves too!


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## pineapple head (Aug 3, 2003)

Good answer......


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## Les (Aug 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pineapple head _
> *Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
> I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?
> 
> Gary. *



Gary,

As I'm sure you have learnt in your classes, the techniques per se are only ideas for possible solutions to hypothetical senarios.

The techniques are set into the syllabus to help students build their knowledge base, and to serve as a benchmark for a students progress.

One of the benefits of practicing techniques is to ingrain the principles and concepts behind them.

It isn't the execution of a full technique that you will use in a 'live' situation, but your knowledge of the underlying basics, body mechnaics, and correct application.

The techniques are neither complicated nor difficult if you have studied your basics sufficiently.

Take any technique and if you analyse it you'll find it is the application of the principles behind the basics that make it work.

There is a vast difference between 'knowing' a technique and actually 'understanding' it.

The "countless hours" you mention shouldn't be spent learning a technique, but rather analiysing and internalising it.

It's not the number of techniques you know, but your understanding of their structure and function so as to make them into 'useful' knowledge.

Les


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pineapple head _
> *I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
> Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
> I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?
> ...



 If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else.   I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Ender (Aug 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pineapple head _
> *I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
> Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
> I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?
> ...



well it has to do with muscle memory and options. mostly likely you will never complete a technique in a real live situation, but you have options and can change position, stikes etc., in a split second.


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## pesilat (Aug 3, 2003)

Well, I'm not a Kenpo player, but I've had some exposure to Kenpo and one of the systems I train in has part of its roots in Kenpo and its curriculum is laid out in a fashion similar to Kenpo.

So this answer is more from a generic perspective than from a specific Kenpo perspective. But I think it's accurate and applicable to Kenpo as well.

At a basic level, the techniques provide a method of developing physical attributes geared toward a set of specific goals. They provide options that can be used. If a specific option doesn't work against an opponent, another option might. Further, they provide various options for teaching. If a specific option doesn't work for one student, another might work better.

The techniques are intended to teach (by example) various concepts and principles. Where different techniques utilize the same concepts and principles, they offer different perspectives on them. This deepens the understanding of those concepts and principles.

In the end, the techniques provide a platform for people to develop their own understanding and expression of the concepts and principles.

So, the techniques (and curriculum they comprise) provide a path of self discovery for each student.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 3, 2003)

No, all the techs are not needed.  It would be like saying you need to know every word in the dictionary before carrying on a conversation. What you do need is a little common sense,  a few basic technique ideas, and a great big strong punch off the back hand. Only losers demand that a person to quit for not thinking the same lame way they do; so, don't be discouraged by comments from the peanut gallery.
Sean


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## RCastillo (Aug 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else.   I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Dang! You gave you the evil eye ? Let me give you one of my pills to help bring you down.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 3, 2003)

Yes, you do need them all ... of course you don't have to learn them all to defend yourself.  

You can always just jab, hook, cross, uppercut, elbow, knee, front kick, round kick ... then learn 6 to 10 grappling moves.  If that is all you want to do.  A minimalist approach, and sufficient for some of the newer "Self-Defense" systems being marketed nowdays.  But that is not all that Kenpo offers ... it is just all that some detractors want you to learn.  

Keep training, it gets better, much better, and lots of fun!

Oss


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## RCastillo (Aug 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stickarts _
> *The way I think of it is this way.
> Basic self defense involves studying only the most probable moves, while studying an entire art involves also studying all of the possible moves too! *



Thank you! My thoughts exactly.:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 3, 2003)

> Yes, you do need them all ... of course you don't have to learn them all to defend yourself



Hmmm......  If you don't need them all to defend yourself, then why do you need them?


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## don bohrer (Aug 3, 2003)

Gary,

You are not really spending countless hours learning techniques, but rather patterns of movement, and core concepts. Both will shape how you respond to situations. Repetition ingrains this info into your brain so it's hopefully there when you need it. 

Core concepts are found throughout the techniques and are reinforced by repetition and proper instruction. Deeper understanding comes by working through the material. This allows you a better chance in responding to situations. 

In shorts it's all a repetative training tool. Watch the experienced students move next time your in class. I'm sure you'll notice a pattern to their movemnets. Patterns are only built by doing them over and over and over and..... 

I like to think of it as mental lubricant so you don't jam up under pressure. 

Keep the faith and train.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Hmmm......  If you don't need them all to defend yourself, then why do you need them? *


Its a pure kenpo thing us ma's don't seem to grasp; alas, we are lost to the ways of the world, I suppose.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 3, 2003)

... but the rest of us enjoy the wide variety of possible response patterns, not to mention stretching the boundries a little with what all is possible, both physically and mentally through the Art.  

Let me see, what other than Self-Defense could we learn through the techniqes?

Lets pick one that John Sepulveda went over in a seminar with us last week:

In the IDEAL PHASE:

*12. GRIP OF DEATH (Left Flank Right Headlock)

1. With your opponent applying a headlock from your left side, step forward and to your left (toward 10:30) with your right foot into a right close kneel stance, while turning your head to the left and tucking your chin against your chest. Simultaneously deliver a right hammerfist to your opponent's groin and a left hammerfist to your opponent's left kidney. (This action should buckle your opponent).

2. Circle your left arm over your opponent's right shoulder and have the fingers of your left hand press under your opponent's nose (or depending upon the circumstances, have your left hand grab your opponent's hair) to Fulcrum your opponent's head back, using his shoulder and the back of his shoulder as the fulcrum. (This should cause a sharp pain to his philtrum, as you also cancel his Height Zones).

3. Immediately pivot into a left forward bow toward 6:00 to take advantage of Rotational Force. In the process thrust a right heel palm strike to your opponent's chin. Simultaneously execute a left Sliding Check down your opponent's right arm, ending at the elbow. (Make sure that the head of your opponent, in either of the cases, is arched and forced back and down to minimize your opponent's leverage. (The force of this strike should cause your opponent to fall to the ground).

4. Pivot back into a left neutral bow, do a left front crossover, covering out toward 10:30. *

Just so we all share the same frame of reference.  Now as to what it teaches:

*
12. GRIP OF DEATH

1. NAME: The seriousness of this attacks warrants the name. If properly employed the grip can cause your death.

2. THEME: The headlock is a very common attack used especially by people with wrestling experience. Internalize the importance of simultaneously responding with offensive and defensive principles. This simultaneous and spontaneous explosion will proportionately help you to protect yourself.

3. THE ATTACK: The Ideal Phase begins with your opponent at your left flank (7:00). Your opponent grabs your head and pulls you into a side headlock. Consider these additional factors:

a. Your opponent is stronger than you.
b. Your opponent forces you to the ground.
c. Your strikes have little effect.

4. Be sure to turn your head and tuck your chin against your chest to prevent your opponent from cutting off your air supply.

5. Be sure to have your hammerfists strike their intended targets with accuracy.

6. Borrow the Force of your opponent's initial pull when applying the headlock.
This will magnify the damage rendered by your hammerfists, as well as increase the effect of your left knee buckling the back of your opponent's right knee.

7. Learn to Stabilize Your Base on your first move to prevent your opponent from forcing you to the ground.

8. Practice Grasp of Death and Grip of Death. See if you can discover which situation would favor the use of one technique over that of the other.

9. Analyze the Fulcrum that is employed when prying your opponent's head back. See how you can obtain maximum leverage when nullifying his intentional or unintentional moves.

10. Increase the effect of your right heel palm strike (third move) by:


a. Employing the principle of Contouring.
b. Using proper Body Alignment.
c. Using Back-up Mass.
d. Fitting your heel palm to his chin.
e. Capitalizing on the merits of Penetration.
*

So now we have some specific things to pay attention to following learning the WHAT TO DO, we begin learning more about HOW's and WHY's.

Next we move into the Black Belt Extension:

*
12. Grip of Death (Left Flank- Right Arm Headlock)

1. An opponent at 9:00 gets me in a right arm side headlock.
2. Step your right foot to 10:30 into a right close kneel stance as you tuck your head to the left and execute a right hammer fist to your opponent's groin simultaneous with a left hammer fist to your opponent's left kidney.
3. Contour your left arm up and over your opponent's right shoulder manipulate your opponent. Note: Ideally this manipulation is to the underside of the nose (philtrim), but can also be to the hair, chin, orbits of the eyes, shoulder or any other contact point where you can secure a grip.
4. Stand as you use a left anchored elbow in order to create a fulcrum with your forearm and elbow against your opponent's back and shoulder area to increase your leverage.
5. Pivot into a left forward bow facing 6:00 as you utilize torque and deliver a right palm strike to your opponent's chin. Note: Your left hand will release your opponent and become a positional check on top of your opponent's arm at your left shoulder to guide the arm off as your opponent falls; this simply wards against unintentional moves.
6. With your left foot behind and to the right of your opponent's right foot, execute a left foot sweep towards 10:30 against your opponent's right foot so you settle into a left front twist stance facing 10:30. (This should spread your opponent's legs out and disturb your opponent's balance. Your right leg is now the lead leg and your left hand is maintaining a pinning check against your opponent's right arm while your right hand positionally checks to the left of your face. You are also essentially positioned behind your opponent.)
7. Slightly step your right foot to 6:00, remaining in a left front twist stance. Shoot your left foot toward 7:30 into a left reverse bow as you buckle out the inside of your
opponent's left knee. (Your hands are checking your opponent's back, left hand low, right high.)
8. From your left reverse bow, execute a left knife-edge kick to the back of your opponent's right knee.
9. Land in a left front crossover and settle into a right rear twist. Pivot clockwise as you execute a right rear kick to your opponent's spine.
10. Land in a right front crossover and cross out 4:30. *

Here we learn about divesifying the angles; being able to execute the same buckles to the back we have to front; attacking the base; ..... and on and on and on.

NO, nobody HAS to learn this, but some of us want to, and thrive on it.  So maybe you don't.  OK with me, it is not detracting from my or my student's training.  It is only your loss, as anyone who has spent decades with the art will tell you.


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## pineapple head (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else.   I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Clyde, thanks for the effort you put into your reply.
 

Have a great Kenpo day.

Gary.


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 4, 2003)

Ya wants a better answer, ask a smarter question. Or maybe, just make the statement you want to make, and wait for responses.

Here's my dopey answer: why no. Not at all. You can simply learn to defend yourself without the slightest formal structure to your training. In fact, it's a lot easier to avoid learning techniques, forms, sets, etc., than it is to actually engage the material they represent.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 4, 2003)

You are right Robert. Using targets as a master key you can use proper methods of execution, moving from point of origin, and staying neutral, to avoid having to learn and memorize a single Parker technique and still have a well rounded and proficient fighter. Go figure, I thought you might never figure that one out.


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *No, all the techs are not needed.  It would be like saying you need to know every word in the dictionary before carrying on a conversation.  *



No, you don't need the whole dictionary, but following your analogy, the more words you know, the better you'll be able to communicate and express what you want to, without it being misunderstood or confused.

Or you'd rather be a baby? Mommy, water. Mommy, food. That's also a conversation, though with a very limited vocabulary.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 4, 2003)

This is a very old question.  To answer it, one must answer a few other questions and examine some assumptions.

What differentiates Kenpo from Japanese/Okinawan Karate?  There are several things:  including A) theories, principles, vocabulary;  B) a larger alphabet of motion and vocabulary of techniques, C) and technique practice.  Let me discuss each of these:  
A) Kenpo principles are a great innovation enabling the Kenpoist to have a better understanding of motion and self-defensea truly significant innovation.  Can you learn the theories, principles, and vocabulary without all of the Kenpo techniques?  Yes.
B) Kenpo provides techniques for just a tremendous variety of stand-up situations.  
This is another great Kenpo innovation.  Can you have Kenpos larger alphabet and repertoire without all of those techniques?  No.  
C) Kenpos greatest innovation over traditional Japanese/Okinawan Karate is technique practice.  In the traditional Karate training Ive seen, techniques are limited to Kata practice.  Partner self-defense technique is usually no-contact, very rudimentary, and with little or no application of principles.  While you could argue that Kenpo principles can be taught with a smaller technique list, Kenpos repertoire could not be taught and Kenpo technique practice would be diminished by a limited repertoire.

What differentiates Kenpo from stand-up sport combatives such as boxing, kick-boxing, and Muay Thai?  There are several things:  A) ring vs street focus, B) training methodology, and C) repertoire of techniques.  
A) Kenpos street focus means that Kenpo progress is measured via the awarding of belts after a subjective measurement of proficiency in principles and repertoire.  Sport combatives measure performance via ring-records.  
B) The training methods differ to support the measurement criteria and objectives of the art/sport.  
C) The repertoire of techniques is perhaps the key differentiator driving the difference in measurement of proficiency and in training method.  Kenpo includes many deadly and dangerous techniques that cannot be practiced full-force.  These dangerous techniques include strikes to the eye, throat, groin, and joints.  Sport combatives have rules prohibiting these dangerous moves thus limiting their repertoire.  Because the dangerous moves are removed, sport combatives can train full-power against resisting partners. The sport-combatives training method is an innovation over and above Kenpos technique training.  All of the stand-up sport comabitives have a very limited technique repertoire but train very effectively with their repertoire.  No one questions the punching or kicking prowess of a professional fighter.  Boxers and kickboxers would argue:  No, all those Kenpo techniques are not necessary.

What differentiates grappling sport combatives such as Wrestling, Judo, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu from striking sport combatives?  Injuries are more common in striking combatives compared to grappling combatives.  It would be rare for a boxer or kickboxer to spar for 30-minutes or an hour 4 or 5 days a week the way Grapplers do.  Grappling sport combatives have a much larger repertoire of techniques than boxing and kickboxing.  The lower injury rate facilitates the greater training time and the practice of a greater number of techniques with a partner.  I would argue that grappling styles have an even larger repertoire of techniques than Kenpo.  Grapplers might argue that Kenpo doesnt have too many techniques  they might even argue that Kenpo does not have enough techniques! 

This leads to the final and most important question:  What differentiates Kenpo technique training from Grappling technique training?  Both grappling styles and Kenpo have a huge repertoire of techniques designed to protect against most every situation.  The training method is the difference.  Kenpo innovated over Karate by allowing techniques to be practiced independently from Kata.  Kenpo further innovated by allowing contact on a cooperative Uke.  Kenpo has missed the sport combative innovation of practicing the entire repertoire of techniques against a fully resisting opponent who is simultaneously trying to execute techniques and defeat you.  

So, in conclusion:  the question of whether there are too many techniques in Kenpo is not the right question.  The right question is this:   Does Kenpos technique training method enable the Kenpoist to learn to apply the principles and execute techniques in a realistic combat situation.  And that should be the subject of further discussion either here or on another thread.


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 4, 2003)

OFK, I don't know how you train techniques, but you're assuming all kenpo people train with cooperative partnerts, and that's not true. That's up to schools' instructors.

But I agree with most of what you said about what diferentiates kenpo from other systems.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 4, 2003)

Kenpomachine:   I've seen Kenpo schools where the partner's don't cooperate.  But I've never seen one where you have two opponents and one says "I am going to do Dance of Death" and you try and stop me while the other one says "Oh Yeah!  I am going to do Entwined Maces, let's see who wins!"  

Technique training needs to start with a solo practitioner learning the movements in the air.  Then it needs to progress to practice on a fully cooperating partner.  Then it needs to progress to a resisting partner who is covering targets/blocking/evading.  Finally, it needs to progress to a fully resisting partner who is simultaneously trying to execute his own techniques and defeat you. 

This last stage is the basis of sport combatives and is the one I've never seen done with Kenpo techniques.  And this difference in training methods is the fundamental question of martial arts training.  It is specifically what differentiates sport combatives from Traditional Asian Martial Arts.  Kenpo technique training is a valuable innovation, but it doesn't completely bridge the gap.


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## Fastmover (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *...
> 
> The headlock is a very common attack used especially by people with wrestling experience.
> ...




The side headlock that is applied in the ideal phase of this technique is not a common attack used by people in wrestling, at least with all the grapplers I have come across. The reason is this position is not the most adventageous place to apply leverage on the opponent for the takedown. In fact it places the guy in the headlock in a better position for a takedown of his own. 

I would say any person who puts you in a headlock with their hips much higher then yours while in this tight isnt a very 
skilled grappler. 

However, I would say that the side headlock is very common with
the basic street fighter out there..........for some reason?

Just My Opinion


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## Michael Billings (Aug 4, 2003)

OFK,

Excellent analysis of a complex issue.  Or rather simplicity compounded, and worthy of discussion.  

In sparring class on Saturday, we spent about half the time up, and half "down."  It was not pre-arranged, it was the natural flow of the type of street sparring I do.  The resistance level goes up as the distance decreases.  I am not saying we were not hitting hard ... my students were!  And interestingly enough, and somewhat different, the injuries I had that day were from the impact, not the grappling.  Great fun, as always, but talking levers, fulcrums, and utilizing the language Mr. Parker gave us about cancelling zones or immobilizing, contact manipulations, checks, etc. is just another way of articulating what we were doing.

Did I mention I think and analyze it in terms of Principles, Concepts, & Theories of Kenpo - and base lots of the moves on pieces of techniques we do standing?


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 5, 2003)

OFK, while I agree completely and wholeheartedly with your second paragraph, I have to say that I know of many schools were that last stage is also practiced in many ways. And it's not just the ones I know in Spain, which more or less share the same lineage, but also heard about them in here and from people in Sweden.

We even have something similar for basics, when the attacker has to hit again if the defender doesn't cover or reply effectively. But it's funnier when we go two or three to one, and you have to defend and the attackers are free to do whatever they want, coordinate their attacks. Of course, they won't tell beforehand how are they gonna attack. 

I have to recognize that we don't do this a lot though. And also that most of us in our class take pieces of techniques to defend, or even no preset techniques at all. 

However, the purpose we do it is more to be able to react under pressure and defend ourselves than being able to do a certain technique. Creativity is allowed and encouraged


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 5, 2003)

Hey, the second message on favorite sparring drills gives another example of uncooperative partnerts: the ring of fire!!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pineapple head _
> *Clyde, thanks for the effort you put into your reply.
> 
> 
> ...



You're so welcome, I'm always happy to assist.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 5, 2003)

> NO, nobody HAS to learn this, but some of us want to, and thrive on it. So maybe you don't. OK with me, it is not detracting from my or my student's training. It is only your loss, as anyone who has spent decades with the art will tell you.



Let me put it to you this way.  I know Five swords.  Through very minor modifications I can make this technique work against:
Punches
1) The inside of a right punch
2) The inside of a left punch
3) The outside of a right punch
4) The outside of a left punch
Kicks
1)     See the examples from 
2)     above, just substitute
3)      the word kick for
4)       the word punch.

Now I can cover 8 attacks with one technique, instead of having to learn 8 different techniques with 8 different approaches.  Someone likened kenpo to the english language and even proceeded to use mock sentences to illustrate their point.



> Or you'd rather be a baby? Mommy, water. Mommy, food. That's also a conversation, though with a very limited vocabulary.



Unfortunately most of you guys, out there in kenpoland, view things as black and white when grey is what might work best.  The above illustration is tantamount to BLOCK-CHOP, or BLOCK-KICK, or even BLOCK-KICK-CHOP (hey look at that.... Delayed Sword), something you might find in a SCARS's tape or another similiar system.  

There are a number of techniques within the realm of kenpo that function as Master Keys.  Instead of teaching a bunch of random techniques that require completely different movements from the various points of origin, why not learn how to make a small group of techniques work from as many places as possible.  I realize that there are those that enjoy learning a bunch of techniques, but I sometimes wonder if they are receiving any benefit from the additional material, or simply becoming technique collectors.   It's fine by me if you want to be a collector, but I'd rather be proficient and functional (I guess that's just me). 

Learn all the words you want, but if you don't know how to use them in a sentence then it doesn't really matter; does it?


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## satans.barber (Aug 5, 2003)

Hmm, time for my 2p maybe.

The system I do (and, well, teach now I suppose) doesn't have as many techniques.

yellow           4
orange          4
purple           4
blue              8
green           10
b3                 10
b2                 12
b1                 12
                    ----
                     64

...64 techniques to black belt (http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/kemporyu/guides/techniques/techguide.htm). I guess that's compared to 122/178 techniques to black belt in a 16/24 EPAK school.

Personally, no, I don't think that you need all teh techniques that EPAK teaches. Do I think _we_ do enough though? Probably not, but that wasn't my descision and it's all I've got, so that's what I'm sticking by.

I've got my black belt grading in 8 weeks, and to this point i've done 6.5 years training, so I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a _whole_ lot shorter than the average times to BB Mr. Billings quoted in another thread (or was it this one? I'm hot and tired...).

The question is then, if I'm doing less techniques, but spending the same amount of time as people doing twice as many, what am I arseing about at? Well, perfecting myself I suppose. To my mind, a smaller skillset of higger quality is still worth more than a broader skillset of lower quality.

But also, spending less time on techniques gives me more time to spend in impact training, improv, discussion etc. etc., so maybe that makes me a better fighter? Who knows...

At the end of the day, we're all individual fighrers, and individual people, usning no way as way, having no limitation as limitation...what gets one of us to the best of our abilities won't get someone else there - some may thrive on techniques, some may thrive on role play, so teh answer to the question is a lemon.

I guess one way to tell would be to throw me i a ring with an EPAK black belt and see who got their **** kicked :shrug:

Ian.

p.s. the heat may have got to me


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## kkbb (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Let me put it to you this way.  I know Five swords.  Through very minor modifications I can make this technique work against:
> Punches
> 1) The inside of a right punch
> ...


It's about time somebody says it!


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

"The secret of the martial arts is not to have knowledge of twenty-four things as it is knowing four things,  Parker said.  That is the key to all keys. It's more important to learn four moves and the twenty-four ways in which you can rearrange them. 
Parker said if he can teach a student just four basic moves, there is then a total of twenty-four combinations in which those moves may be used. Increase the basic four moves to five, and the total of available combinations rises geometrically to 120. "

Just Id add this to the conversation to see what folks might say
about this. 

Also along Mr Parker's journey with his system, he deleted and/or
stopped teaching certain things in the main stream. What gives
and why?


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Hmm, time for my 2p maybe.
> 
> The system I do (and, well, teach now I suppose) doesn't have as many techniques.
> ...


SB,
You have plenty of techs. The truth is you could have fewer and not be any worse off. Training what you've got against a diversity of attacks is more important than creating a diversity of responses to a single attack. Most of the people responding negativly to this concept are in fact beholden to there intructors wants, beliefs, and desires. The only way to redeem yourself would be to become one of them. Then ,god forbid, the person they hook you up with should fall out of favor with the Big Dog of said system and you would end up right back where you started.
I suggest you just train hard and keep an open mind to the many different methods of the same thing... self defense.
Sean


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 5, 2003)

And what you fail to see, Sarris, is that MY ship is dragging mines...no wait...where was I?

Oh yes. The problem y'all are having is that you're confusing intellectual knowledge achieved after long practice with the way students, generally speaking, need to be taught. 

There are a lot of things to be learned, through learning a pack of techniques, and a method or three of "efficient fighting," is only part of them.


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

Wouldnt it be great if someone could get one technique to work
against everything?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 5, 2003)

Fastmover:  That's what 12-guage shotguns are for!


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Let me put it to you this way.  I know Five swords.  Through very minor modifications I can make this technique work against:
> Punches
> 1) The inside of a right punch
> ...


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 5, 2003)

Yea its called star block used both offensivly and defensively. With that you need not learn a single parker tech. You can make them up for reference ( which is why they were created) or just rely on your masterkey idea... "targets"


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Yea its called star block used both offensivly and defensively. With that you need not learn a single parker tech. You can make them up for reference ( which is why they were created) or just rely on your masterkey idea... "targets" *



You are a pretty sharp guy! The master Key Idea is what I had
in mind when I ask that question.


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Michael Billings (Aug 5, 2003)

In Long 7 is used against a Right Kick - Right Punch Combination.  It is Five Swords, but with sticks.  I use the block against the Kick in Long 4, can anyone guess if it is the right side or left side where this is done (it is not both!)

Oss


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Detour From Doom *



Ok, maybe I'm having one of those mental block days today, I dont know. I thought that he was saying that he could do 5 Swords against a kick.  Detour from Doom is a totally different tech.  IMO, doing a modification is making a slight change, not doing a separate tech.

Mike


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## satans.barber (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Wouldnt it be great if someone could get one technique to work
> against everything? *



Wouldn't it be great if people had no need to learn techniques.

Ian.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Ok, maybe I'm having one of those mental block days today, I dont know. I thought that he was saying that he could do 5 Swords against a kick.  Detour from Doom is a totally different tech.  IMO, doing a modification is making a slight change, not doing a separate tech.
> 
> Mike *


Switching to lower case does not change the idea that you are using a single tech.


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Ok, maybe I'm having one of those mental block days today, I dont know. I thought that he was saying that he could do 5 Swords against a kick.  Detour from Doom is a totally different tech.  IMO, doing a modification is making a slight change, not doing a separate tech.
> 
> Mike *



With a slight modification Five Swords can be done against a kick. With this in mind it will have a Detour From Doom flavor. 

Also you made me think of something else and it has to do with Master Keys. Isnt the first two moves of:

Clutching Feathers
Twin Kimono
Lone Kimono
Snapping Twig
etc.....

Are not these the very same move in principle but used in a different context? Granted these techniques have different names
but instead of thinking of these techniuqes as being different, wouldnt it be more rewarding to think of these techniques as
varations of each other?

Looking back to my days in Tracy's Kenpo I learned a Technique
called I believe Crash Of the Eagle with many different varations.
In EPAK this same technique is called Circling Wing. Why didnt
Mr. Parker keep all the varations of this technique in his system?

take Care


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

See, I told you it was one of those days!

Thanks for the clarification!

Mike


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Wouldn't it be great if people had no need to learn techniques.
> 
> Ian. *



Conceptional learning with no structure is very difficult in the beginning in my opinion; however, there are those who can do it. 
The structure is designed to teach principles. If you win the fight
and you didnt know which technique you did with its extension.
so what! The point is you won the fight.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 5, 2003)

The concept of Master Key techniques is not new here.  Many systems have a master key kata containing all of the key concepts or techniques of the system.  For instance, Shotokan kata Kanku Dai is considered the master key kata for Shotokan.
http://ase.tufts.edu/karate/kata/kankudai.mpg

Until the Tracy's Bros started adding techniques and variations, EPAK had 128 techniques + 32 extensions.    Somehow this grew to 250 techniques for EPAK and 600 variations for Tracy's.  But the core concepts remained the same.  

It goes back to my earlier point about how you train.  Memorization is required for larger curriculums.  This memorization is a Zen method of teaching the concepts:  learn the movements properly and the concepts will be learned subconsciously.  The alternative is to learn core techniques, learn concepts, and then use the concepts to extend the core techniques.

Either way, it is not how many techniques you learn and it is not how well you understand the concepts behind the techniques.  What matters is whether or not you can APPLY the concepts and make however many techniques you know WORK.


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## Fastmover (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *
> Either way, it is not how many techniques you learn and it is not how well you understand the concepts behind the techniques.  What matters is whether or not you can APPLY the concepts and make however many techniques you know WORK. *



Im going to shut up and start listening...you are right on the $$$!


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Until the Tracy's Bros started adding techniques and variations, EPAK had 128 techniques + 32 extensions.    Somehow this grew to 250 techniques for EPAK and 600 variations for Tracy's.  But the core concepts remained the same.
> 
> It goes back to my earlier point about how you train.  Memorization is required for larger curriculums.  This memorization is a Zen method of teaching the concepts:  learn the movements properly and the concepts will be learned subconsciously.  The alternative is to learn core techniques, learn concepts, and then use the concepts to extend the core techniques.
> ...



And this is a good point!  Memorization is definately a big part.  But, this also can have a negative effect.  If you rely so much on the memorization, there is a good chance that when its time to do a tech., you might not be able to recall which one to do.  I have seen this with students before.  While doing SD, the students get into a circle or line, and the others come at them with different attacks.  9 times out of 10, the student will just stand there and almost look confused as to what to do.  Or they say that they are not sure what to do because they have not learned a tech for that attack yet.

The techs. should be the ingredients for what you are cooking.  Rather than try to rely on your memory, you should be reacting.  I say to them, when they look at me with that puzzeled look, "Do you know how to block? Do you know how to punch? Do you know how to kick? Do you know how to move?  They answer yes to all of these.  I then say, "Well, who cares what you do, but do something.  Dont just stand there!"  Use the tech as a base to create something on your own.  Dont just rely on that one tech of the many that there are, to defend yourself.

Mike


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## satans.barber (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Conceptional learning with no structure is very difficult in the beginning in my opinion; however, there are those who can do it.
> The structure is designed to teach principles. If you win the fight
> and you didnt know which technique you did with its extension.
> so what! The point is you won the fight. *



That's not what I meant 

I was musing more on the human condition...

Ian.


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## Brother John (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *No, all the techs are not needed.  It would be like saying you need to know every word in the dictionary before carrying on a conversation. What you do need is a little common sense,  a few basic technique ideas, and a great big strong punch off the back hand. Only losers demand that a person to quit for not thinking the same lame way they do; so, don't be discouraged by comments from the peanut gallery.
> Sean *



1. You are correct, we needn't learn all of the techniques in any curriculum in order to defend ourselves. BUT we do need them in order to have a well rounded martial arts education. 

2. True, you don't need to learn all of the words in the dictionary in order to carry on a conversation... but the more words a person knows and knows HOW to use, the better they can express their thoughts... the more accurately they can codify their ideas and notions and relate them to others in a way that they can understand.  The better a persons grasp and mastery of the english (or any other for that matter) language, the greater their credability and the greater their ability to persuade. 
Your analogy cannibalized it's self. 

3. You speak of needing only "...a little common sense,  a few basic technique ideas, and a great big strong punch off the back hand."
How common is 'common sense' underfire? 
It's not. Under extreme duress your 'common sense' takes a left and speeds away and your technique 'ideas' are even further.That's why we train in as many probable scenarios as we can, so that we internalize their solutions from many different angles until we needn't 'think' about them, but let our limbs work things out through the disciplines they have undergone.

Most street fighters have some common sense, technique 'ideas' and good strong punches... so what separates a decent martial artist from a decent street fighter??? I'd hope more than just the title! 

SO... 
does a fighter "need" ALL of the techniques in order to survive on the streets... NO.
Should a system that teaches one to fight well include a good number of diversified scenarios???
Heck yeah...

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Its a pure kenpo thing us ma's don't seem to grasp; alas, we are lost to the ways of the world, I suppose. *



is it just me, or is someone being rude???
snide sarcasm  

perhaps it's Kenpo envy...  

Your Bro.
John


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 5, 2003)

Its just you. Just kidding I was refering to some other posts on this thread. Fire with fire, you know.


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## Brother John (Aug 5, 2003)

In a wierd mood
the snideness was mine.
 

later man...
Your Bro.
John


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Now I can cover 8 attacks with one technique, instead of having to learn 8 different techniques with 8 different approaches.  Someone likened kenpo to the english language and even proceeded to use mock sentences to illustrate their point. *



It was an extreme example of what I wrote in the forst paragraph. I was implying that you can chose at what level you want to be able to communicate (defend yourself), and that you don't need to be as proficient as Shakespeare (Master Parker) to be efficient.

And by the way, I usually fill gaps in my english the same way you describe for five swords, adapting from what I know best (spanish).

If you thought the example was a mock sentence, I'm sorry.

PS Requirements for BB in my school are just above 55. FWIW.


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Why didnt
> Mr. Parker keep all the varations of this technique in his system?
> *




You are a martial  _artist_ , and so, you need to be able to create too. If you'd keep all of the posible variations for a certain attack, then you'll lose focus in the main point. And also, as said wonderfully (IMO) by MJS 



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *
> The techs. should be the ingredients for what you are cooking.  Rather than try to rely on your memory, you should be reacting.  I say to them, when they look at me with that puzzeled look, "Do you know how to block? Do you know how to punch? Do you know how to kick? Do you know how to move?  They answer yes to all of these.  I then say, "Well, who cares what you do, but do something.  Dont just stand there!"  Use the tech as a base to create something on your own.  Dont just rely on that one tech of the many that there are, to defend yourself.*



That's exactly what my instuctor says. DO SOMETHING! 

I think you get ideas for SD from the curricula and build muscle memory from the techniques. Plus they illustrate and reinforce the concepts and techniques on which kenpo is based. 

My point, if you can get the principles in a lesser number of techniques by doing other drills and some research, ok. But before dropping any technique be sure you don't forget to learn what is imbedded in that technique, and don't forget to pass it along to your students as well.


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## Fastmover (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *You are a martial  artist , and so, you need to be able to create too. If you'd keep all of the posible variations for a certain attack, then you'll lose focus in the main point. And also, as said wonderfully (IMO) by MJS
> 
> 
> ...



I couldnt agree more! I believe Mr. Parker did want us to think for ourselves.


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## kkbb (Aug 6, 2003)

Would it not be wiser to adapt one defense created for one attack to defend against similar attacks.  In other words, a reverse punch done to the head, or chest, or low, would be best dealt with by one single defense....would it not?  Don't most people in epak or any other multiple technique system "freeze" when confronted by the same attack done with different variables.... because they have to stop and think about 3 or 4 different techniques taught to them to negate minor variations in the attacks (ie straight punch, different angles)?  Or  do they "explode" into some "technique" that doesn't look anything like they have learned, and therefore are taking a 50/50 chance that it would work or that they could make it work? And if our instructors want us to "expand" or think outside of the box...why do they bother to teach techniques?  Why not just concepts?  Let the student put it together?

Take a kid to candy store and he will surely take forever to make up his mind, but take a kid to hardware store that only has one candy machine his decision is easy!

Less techniques ("i'd rather have 6 that work than 24 that don't") in mho is better!


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## pesilat (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kkbb _
> *Would it not be wiser to adapt one defense created for one attack to defend against similar attacks.  In other words, a reverse punch done to the head, or chest, or low, would be best dealt with by one single defense....would it not?  Don't most people in epak or any other multiple technique system "freeze" when confronted by the same attack done with different variables.... because they have to stop and think about 3 or 4 different techniques taught to them to negate minor variations in the attacks (ie straight punch, different angles)?  Or  do they "explode" into some "technique" that doesn't look anything like they have learned, and therefore are taking a 50/50 chance that it would work or that they could make it work? And if our instructors want us to "expand" or think outside of the box...why do they bother to teach techniques?  Why not just concepts?  Let the student put it together?
> 
> Take a kid to candy store and he will surely take forever to make up his mind, but take a kid to hardware store that only has one candy machine his decision is easy!
> ...



People may freeze in training due to thinking about which defense to use. But in a real situation, when people freeze, they're generally not thinking about anything at all. They're a deer in headlights, not a kid in a candy store 

To be a fighter, you only need a handful of techniques (or even only one) and good timing/footwork.

But a good fighter isn't necessarily a good teacher. To be a good teacher, you need more than just what works for you. You need to have options so that if something you do doesn't work for a student, then you can present them with alternatives.

Curriculums (in general) are laid out in such a way that the student learns various options and is able to then determine which works best for him/her.

To look at a curriculum and say, "When I get attack A, I'm going to do defense A. When I get attacked with B, I'm going to do defense B." is a very shallow way of looking at things and isn't what the curriculums are intended to present. They are intended to:
A) present options so the student can, as they evolve, find what works best for them
B) present options so that as the student ages, they don't have to go looking elsewhere to accomodate their aging body's attributes - they just have to review the curriculum and find what works best for them at their current age
C) provide multiple perspectives on the same concept/principle to deepen the understanding of the concept/principle
D) provide a "map to the territory" that the instructor can use as he/she guides students through the actual territory - the map is not the territory

There are probably other things, too, but these are the first ones that come to my mind.

A good fighter doesn't need all of this. A good fighter only needs what works for him/her (though what works may change with age). But training in martial arts isn't (for most people that I know) just about being a good fighter.

Mike


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 6, 2003)

Thus far, this is the only good explanation I have heard for having an extended curriculum.  I totally agree with you, but sometimes I like to play the Devil's Advocate to see if anyone has a good explanation other than," Just Cause that's the way we do it," or "Because that's the way I was taught."  Excellent job


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 6, 2003)

I agree with Mr. Castro.

Eliminate what you don't use well, after you've learned a martial arts systems, by all means. "Simplify, simplify," is always a good rule.

But don't confuse what you need or don't need with what students need. As I may have mentioned a time or two, when you go ripping the wiring out of the system of kenpo, you are making it impossible for students to get to where you are. With rare exceptions, students simply have to have an organized teaching structure.

They're dunderheads like me, in other words, and at a mere twelve years in I am nowhere near ready to start formally discarding. (Though at times I suspect this gets handled by a simple avoidance of practice...) And so what if Bruce Lee went faster? He was a bit of a genius, and he died much, much younger than his instructors, and I simply don't believe he was a good teacher...in fact, based on absolutely nothing, I will bet a shiny new penny that Mr. Inosanto is far better in this regard.

I might add--just to be difficult--that a) some of the discarding may still take place too soon and too facilely for even instructors' progress; b) some of the curriculum seems to me to confront us with issues that we would rather not be confronted--so, throwing things out of the system can at times become a way to duck out on progress.


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## pesilat (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *What about having one technique that works for both a Right roundhouse or a Right straight punch, that would be a start?  How many times have you seen a line held up because the Attackee tells the Attacker that they attacked wrong?  Or they have to sit there and think,"Hmmm.... If its a roundhouse I do this, but if it's straight I do this."
> 
> Shouldn't you (generic YOU of course) be teaching your students to be able to work one technique off of both variables?  Just a thought from a lowly Kenpo Guy. *



Well, first, it's better that they get over the freeze in training than in reality 

Second, they should be taught to _move_. Period. If they move, their body will do _something_. 

What you're talking about has more to do with a young mindset (the guy freezing up in the technique line) than with faulty teaching.

A young mindset thinks in terms of "right" and "wrong" (in relation to the technique performed). As one progresses, it moves away from that. If I move and don't get hit, then I didn't do anything "wrong." If I move, don't get hit, and launch my own attack, then I've definitely done something "right." Whether it was a specific technique or not is largely irrelevant. Obviously, if I'm trying to train a specific technique, then I want to try to do that technique. But if I'm doing freestyle defenses, then there is no "right" or "wrong."

That's the way I perceive it, anyway. Though I may not be explaining it very well. But if we keep hashing through it, I'm sure I'll eventually find a way to explain it adequately 

Mike


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## Fastmover (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I agree with Mr. Castro.
> 
> Eliminate what you don't use well, after you've learned a martial arts systems, by all means. "Simplify, simplify," is always a good rule.
> ...



This whole I idea about eliminating to simplify, but keep things for your students is interesting. After 5, 10, or 20 years at a system if you cant get something to work, how can we ever expect our students to be able to do it? Second thing that comes to mind is
why should it take 5, 10, or 20 years to make things work? This is
not very practical in my opinion. I think everyone would agree that
economy of motion is a logical idea in Kenpo, but why shouldnt economy apply to the learning process?

For those who say you must learn the entire web of knowledge; including the extensions of the techniques, to be able to defend yourself, then Id say the way you are not being very logical. 
Worse I feel sorry for your students.


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## pesilat (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *This whole I idea about eliminating to simplify, but keep things for your students is interesting. After 5, 10, or 20 years at a system if you cant get something to work, how can we ever expect our students to be able to do it?*



Simple. A given technique may never work for me because of my specific physical attributes. But it may work just fine for a student with different attributes.

It doesn't take 5, 10 + years to make anything work at a basic level. As a friend of mine put it, "We spend about 6 months learning to deal with 90% of the population. The next 5 - 10 years are spent learning to deal with the next 9%. And we spend the rest of our lives learning to deal with that final 1%."

Mike


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## Fastmover (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Simple.
> It doesn't take 5, 10 + years to make anything work at a basic level. As a friend of mine put it, "We spend about 6 months learning to deal with 90% of the population. The next 5 - 10 years are spent learning to deal with the next 9%. And we spend the rest of our lives learning to deal with that final 1%."
> 
> Mike *



Are you saying that we learn 90% of the Kenpo system in the
first 6 months of training? There may very well be some out
there that present the Kenpo system in this fashion. I just
wanted to be be clear that I was understanding what you 
were saying.


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 6, 2003)

First off, fella, I haven't found any of the techniques yet that don't work. My understanding of them may not work--but I go ask Clyde or Mr. Tatum, scream a little in the course of learning why it works, and then add what I learned to my repertoire as best I can.

Second off, what's not logical is giving students unrealistic ideas about their fighting abilities based on a few months of training. But I've remarked on this previously, as others have, so...

Third--it strikes me as very odd that we would want to edit kenpo for our students, rather than teaching them to the point that they can edit. Personally, I don't feel qualified, after only eleven-twelve years...

Fourth--ya wants pure efficiency, well, as Mr. Parker remarked, get a gun. You may be able to learn without the techniques, though I doubt it. But I was not, and I suspect that most others aren't, either.

I guess you'll have to check with my students about whether you should feel sorry for them. Personally, I try to avoid passing judgment on the abilities of people I don't know and have never seen, but hey. That's just me.


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## Brother John (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *People may freeze in training due to thinking about which defense to use. But in a real situation, when people freeze, they're generally not thinking about anything at all. They're a deer in headlights, not a kid in a candy store
> 
> To look at a curriculum and say, "When I get attack A, I'm going to do defense A. When I get attacked with B, I'm going to do defense B." is a very shallow way of looking at things and isn't what the curriculums are intended to present. Mike *



That's exactly it. We aren't meant to "Choose" a technique to use or respond with... just to respond. We've put our bodies through countless repetitions of many different scenarios and have drilled RELENTLESSLY on the *BASICS*  ((!!!!)) and then we let our bodies flow with what they know. (hey...I'm poetic)

You "choose"
you lose.

Your Brother
John


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## pesilat (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Are you saying that we learn 90% of the Kenpo system in the
> first 6 months of training?*



Nope. Not at all. I'm saying that what is learned in the first 6 months (provided it's trained hard and developed well) is all that's needed to beat 90% of the people that you're likely to encounter in a fight.

Mike


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 7, 2003)

That one of the most important ingredients is "self confidence".  In the first several months of training most receive the "basics" to most systems and have the "movements" if applied with proper zeal and attitude will be more than effective in the street.  

The continual training for years only adds insurance to the already learned material plus continual upgrades and little shortcuts.  It "sets in" the material so as to become extemporaneous.

To say a student "needs" all the (in our case) 154 techniques and extensions and forms and sets to be able to defend him/herself is pure poppycock!   I know of several individuals (including myself) that have had altercations during the colored belt or brown belt years and have faired just fine. 

Now if you have a studio and are teaching a system, it is more than necessary to have this material under your hat, in the instance some student stays long enough to learn that far up the system!  There are many reason for the extended material .... and not all self defense oriented.

:asian:


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## kkbb (Aug 11, 2003)

How can we efficiently practice 154 techniques and extensions, forms etc....?  Almost impossible..right? Most people workout 2 days a week... where can they find the time?  SO, to legitimize the 154 ++++ what we say is that the practicing of techniques is to learn concepts...the movements... etc... which we know are all reletively the same in the techniques... so that we can taylor to our own specific selves in the event that we need them.  BUT,..what if we did less techniques...say 40 (that cover same type attacks).... and practiced them more often.  Would we not become more efficient?  Tayloring is still an option.... efficiency would be increased... along with effectiveness!


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## Michael Billings (Aug 11, 2003)

Then you do that.  There are types of Motion found in extensions that are not in any of the base techniques.  I just had an eye opening weekend doing Black Belt extensions with about 48 other advanced students in the class.  We all recognized that any extension, per se, will not be completed if we are accurate, explosive and hit with the requisite power ... but pieces of the extensions may be found useful as we articulate our self-defense paradigm.  More is not always better - I am assuming that is your point ... just as another homily "Which had you rather have, quality or quantity?", is part of your arguement.

Hey, you don't want 'em, don't learn them.  Realize some of us want them, train them hard, and bet dollars to dounuts that we can make them work.  Talk about "Watering down the system."  Nobody has to do anything they don't want, just look on the internet and you can buy your Black Belt ... cheap!  At least as compared to the years of tuition, sweat and blood it can cost.  You devalue something you do not chose to learn, or have difficulty executing, otherwise you would see the inherent value of the extensions and all the techniques.  

Think of "possible" solutions.

Think of the long run in training - not quick mastery of self defense, but a lifetime in the Art (you don't want it, fine.  But do not be judgemental of those of us who have done it for decades.)

You want to bounce from system to system ... FINE, and more power to you.  You just have a different value than I do.  Kenpo has a lifetimes worth of knowledge and work available for anyone interested.

Good luck on your journey, while I go on mine.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Then you do that.  There are types of Motion found in extensions that are not in any of the base techniques.  I just had an eye opening weekend doing Black Belt extensions with about 48 other advanced students in the class.  We all recognized that any extension, per se, will not be completed if we are accurate, explosive and hit with the requisite power ... but pieces of the extensions may be found useful as we articulate our self-defense paradigm.  More is not always better - I am assuming that is your point ... just as another homily "Which had you rather have, quality or quantity?", is part of your arguement.
> 
> Hey, you don't want 'em, don't learn them.  Realize some of us want them, train them hard, and bet dollars to dounuts that we can make them work.  Talk about "Watering down the system."  Nobody has to do anything they don't want, just look on the internet and you can buy your Black Belt ... cheap!  At least as compared to the years of tuition, sweat and blood it can cost.  You devalue something you do not chose to learn, or have difficulty executing, otherwise you would see the inherent value of the extensions and all the techniques.
> ...


sorry I don't want to lose all my donuts. The bet is off.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 11, 2003)

All I wanted was an excuse to get off Atkins.  Boy I was craving those dounuts. 

Have a good one!


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## don bohrer (Aug 11, 2003)

Were they Krispy Kream donuts?  

Everyone keeps telling how good those donuts are supposed to be...


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## pesilat (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> *Were they Krispy Kream donuts?
> 
> Everyone keeps telling how good those donuts are supposed to be... *



Krispy Kreme donuts are to other donuts what Hagen Daaz is to other ice cream 

But you have to get them warm. If they're cold (i.e.: what you can find at gas stations and stuff), they're good - still above average. But when they're warm, straight off the conveyor belt, then, IMO, there's not a better donut out there.

Mike


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kkbb _*
> How can we efficiently practice 154 techniques and extensions, forms etc....?
> Almost impossible..right?
> *



Where there is a WILL.......... there IS a way. 

No, not impossible..... wrong.

I guess it all depends on your commitment and understanding of the system.


:asian:


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pineapple head _
> *I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
> Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
> I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?
> ...



Good point!  If you have 50 different ways to block a punch, when it acutally comes down to it, are you going to stand there thinking, "Ok, which one of the 50 am I going to do?" Or, are you going to just react?  Hopefully, you'll just react, but I've seen alot of people getting too wrapped up in memorizing all the techs. and then while doing them against someone in training, they stand there looking like, "What the hell do I do?"  Rather than think, just react!

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else.   I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



I dont think it has anything to do with liking or not liking something. It has to do with feeling that you are capable of reacting and not thinking about the many different choices that you have.  Who is going to have time to think?  

Just because something works for one person, does not mean that its going to work for everybody.  We all have our own way of learning and doing things.  Rather than tell someone to shut up, dont you think that offering a helpfull suggestion might be a little better?????


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 15, 2003)

Wow, one hundred and fifty four Master Keys! What did master key mean again?


----------



## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Rather than tell someone to shut up, dont you think that offering a helpfull suggestion might be a little better????? *



NOPE!  Not when it's impossible anymore to post a darned thing
in here without you or OFK coming in and fargin talking about how
cross training is the bomb, IMPLY that those that don't cross train
are poor depraved idiots, and imply that kenpo is some sort of 
crappy art.  Now there's a TON of people that have studied more
arts than you ever will, who are HIGH ranking seniors in kenpo.
Their claim is that kenpo is the most complete system out there.
I'll take their word for it over yours anyday!  You'll earn no respect
for you, or your opinions when you're as rude as you have been.



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Well, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions.  Fortunately, there are others that dont think like that!*



"Fortunately" ??? What's that all about???

Buuuut, I'm sure you just want to save up poor happless 
dumbasses, right?   

I'll tell ya one thing I do know for sure .. the kenpo forum here
USED TO kick some major butt, until you and your cronies came
along and poisoned every single fargin thread with your gibberish.

Hmmmm, should I listen to MJS, OFK, or Martin Wheeler, Huk Planas, Steven LaBounty, Sascha Williams, Ed Parker, Lee Wedlake??  Decisions, decisions.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 15, 2003)

A noble sentiment, I thought you had "retired" somewhat from this forum. Glad you have not. 

Albeit I agree with the content of what you stated, in theory, I do think everyone is entitled to an opinion ... and the right to express it. I also get tired of the same detractors criticizing instead of "adding to" the discussion. To their credit, and to be generous, I bet that they think they are helping others with their perspective ... and never the twain shall meet (unless you agree with them on a point.)

How about a "Kenpo Synthesis" thread, or "Kenpo/BJJ", or maybe a "For Kenpo Street Fighters Only." They will never see, and if they do, admit, that there are merits to studying an Art, which includes Basics, Forms, Sets, Freestyle, 154 (at least) if not 256 Self-Defense techniques. Put 'em in front of someone and they want to BANG. Well so do I ... but that does not preclude my study of the complete Art and System of Kenpo as SGM Parker handed it on. This is NOT a stagnant system, it did not "freeze" with Mr. Parker's death. But what he did do, is provide us with a framework, and conceptual basis for analyzation of what is and is not USLESS. Don't you think he would have eliminated a training horse or basics from the system if he did not see value? I think he would have!!! I see the value, just because you can't does not mean, "Your opinion is correct."

He trained basics in isolation, out of a horse ... he also did them out of a neutral bow. This same rationale applies to techniques. He did all the techniques ... not just a limited number, and boy did he explode and rip!!!!!!

Just because YOU cannot, will not, or do not learn all the techniques, mean anything to me. I have learned them, used them (or pieces of them) and given the 24 years I have been at Kenpo ... not just in it, consider all the techniques as valuable and necessary. 

Yes, I could make do with 20 or 30 to defend myself, but that is not the complete goal in understanding or executing the sophisticated system that we all study. The techniques give us a vehicle for finding applications, from any possible position in which we may find ourselves. Try it with anyone in the Art over 20 years, and I bet they will use a piece of a technique whether seated, laying down or standing on their heads  . Heck, you don't have to be at it 20 years, I just wanted you to have some perspective, and realize some of the Seniors do read this Board, they don't comment on the forum, but in private, the shake their heads, laugh, and say "they just don't get it". :rofl: 

Those who want to train, TRAIN. Those who don't, DON'T. But do not impose your limitations or bias convinces Newby's who don't know whether they have ever been exposed to GOOD KENPO, or not.

That is my pet peeve.

I am getting off the  :soapbox:  now.


----------



## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *NOPE!  Not when it's impossible anymore to post a darned thing
> in here without you or OFK coming in and fargin talking about how
> cross training is the bomb, IMPLY that those that don't cross train
> ...



Crosstraining is something that is totally up to the individual.  I'm not holding a gun to anyones head telling them to do it.  If you dont want to, then dont.  Its just something that I choose to do.  You sit and say that there are people that have sutdied more arts than I ever will??? Gee, does that mean that they cross train too?  Sounds like you're contradicting yourself there pal!!!

Earning respect??  I'm not here to make someone respect me.  As for being rude----dont you think that telling someone to shut up is not being rude???  Dont know about you, but I wouldn't respect anybody that told me to shut up!  I never told anyone to listen to me.  Just funny how some people here seem to think and want everyone to believe that crosstraining isnt good and that Kenpo is the Ultimate art!!!  Thats funny, because if that was the case, then everybody would train the same art, because they would be unbeatable.  So basically, you're telling me that Kenpo guys punch better than a boxer, kick better than a kickboxer, and defend themselves on the ground better than a grappler!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:   Yeah, ok!

Fortunately????  OK, I'll explain that one to you.  What I meant was, is that fortunately there are others on here that see the value of crosstraining, and are not under the thumb of the people on here that like to control others, by telling them what or what not to do.

I'm not trying to save anybody.  How you train is your business, like I said earlier.

Poisoned every thread with gibberish???  Sounds like Clyde and some of the others are doing a good job of that all ready, by saying that Kenpo is the ultimate and that everything is addressed in it.  You know, alot of these guys live in the CA. area.  There are alot of world class grapplers in Cali.  It's be interesting to hook up with some of them and test out your Kenpo against being taken down.  Of course, I dont think that would ever happen---the egos are too big!

Again Kirk, I'm not telling anyone what to do.  If you are happy with what you are doing, that is great!  I"m not saying dont listen Planas and the others that you mention.  If you want to limit your options, then fine.  Train who you want, and I'll train how I want!  

HHHHMMMM....listen to Clyde or listen to the people that I train with?  Decisions, Decisions!!!  

Mike


----------



## Michael Billings (Aug 15, 2003)

... they just don't get it.


----------



## jeffkyle (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... they just don't get it. *



I saw this in a thread somewhere just recently...."BAM"!


----------



## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

I've never once said for ANYBODY to stop doing the art that they are doing.  All I'm saying is to take and idea or concept from another art, and add it to what you already know.  Look at a boxer.  They work on hand techs. day after day after day.  I would think that they would know juat a little about boxing, right?  So, if you took an idea from boxing, added it to your Kenpo, and by doing that, you just made your jab and hook 50% better than it was before, do you still think that this is bad?

A kickboxer or Thai fighter works on kicks.  If you were able to take a concept from that, add it to your Kenpo, and you just made your roundkick 505 more powerful than it was before, is this a bad thing?

Mike


----------



## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Crosstraining is something that is totally up to the individual.  I'm not holding a gun to anyones head telling them to do it.  If you dont want to, then dont.  Its just something that I choose to do.  You sit and say that there are people that have sutdied more arts than I ever will??? Gee, does that mean that they cross train too?  Sounds like you're contradicting yourself there pal!!!
> *



I never said cross training was bad .. YOU have incessantly said
it's bad to NOT cross train.   And you say it so much and annoy so
many that kenpoists have stopped posting here.   Soon you'll
only have yourself to talk to, which would probably please you
just fine.  It's just something you choose to do?!?!  Seems to me
like you also choose to pollute every thread with your mumbo 
jumbo.



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Earning respect??  I'm not here to make someone respect me.  As for being rude----dont you think that telling someone to shut up is not being rude???  Dont know about you, but I wouldn't respect anybody that told me to shut up!  I never told anyone to listen to me.  Just funny how some people here seem to think and want everyone to believe that crosstraining isnt good and that Kenpo is the Ultimate art!!!  Thats funny, because if that was the case, then everybody would train the same art, because they would be unbeatable.  So basically, you're telling me that Kenpo guys punch better than a boxer, kick better than a kickboxer, and defend themselves on the ground better than a grappler!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:   Yeah, ok!
> *



Never said that either.  I'm saying you can't do anything but talk
about how terrible kenpo is, and how if a kenpoist doesn't cross
trained, they'll get their butts kicked.  TRUST me dude .. I'm not
the only one tired of it!  Good thing you're not here to earn any
respect .. you're doing a damned fine job of it!



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Fortunately????  OK, I'll explain that one to you.  What I meant was, is that fortunately there are others on here that see the value of crosstraining, and are not under the thumb of the people on here that like to control others, by telling them what or what not to do.*



That's exactly what I mean!  EVERYONE HERE knows your fricken
opinion of crosstraining ..... so stop already and discuss KENPO
for a change!  Go to the MMA board to worship crosstraining, this
is a KENPO FORUM!  You get "shut up" because people are tired
of your constant rants of the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *I'm not trying to save anybody.  How you train is your business, like I said earlier.*



I don't buy that for a second .. otherwise you'd have shut up by
now.  But nope!  There ya are, in every thread on the kenpo 
forum going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *
> Poisoned every thread with gibberish???  Sounds like Clyde and some of the others are doing a good job of that all ready, by saying that Kenpo is the ultimate and that everything is addressed in it.  You know, alot of these guys live in the CA. area.  There are alot of world class grapplers in Cali.  It's be interesting to hook up with some of them and test out your Kenpo against being taken down. *



This may come as a shock to you but you're in a KENPO forum! 
In addition ... Clyde doesn't post about the SAME THING over and
over again, and I haven't noticed a SIGNIFICANT reduction in 
posts since Clyde became a member.


----------



## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I never said cross training was bad .. YOU have incessantly said
> it's bad to NOT cross train.   And you say it so much and annoy so
> many that kenpoists have stopped posting here.   Soon you'll
> ...



Well, you know what.  He has this unique way of being a wise guy and I'm not the only one who has commented on it.  Doesnt say much for a guy with his exp. and his rank.  Rather than put people down, why not offer some constructive comments.

Mike


----------



## jeffkyle (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Well, you know what.  He has this unique way of being a wise guy and I'm not the only one who has commented on it.  Doesnt say much for a guy with his exp. and his rank.  Rather than put people down, why not offer some constructive comments.
> 
> Mike *



He DOES offer constructive comments, the first 1 or 2 times.  After that he gets tired of repeating himself, especially when it is obvious that what he says is being ignored.  

:shrug:


----------



## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Well, you know what.  He has this unique way of being a wise guy and I'm not the only one who has commented on it.  Doesnt say much for a guy with his exp. and his rank.  Rather than put people down, why not offer some constructive comments.
> 
> Mike *




And rather than turning every thread in the kenpo forum into a
crosstraining one, you could discuss KENPO for a change.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 15, 2003)

Kirk:

Many, probably most, of my posts on this forum advocate cross-training or at least exposure to other arts and methods.  On this thread I have tried to focus on the argument of training methodoligies to address this thread topic.    I have made 4 posts on this thread.  Several of those posts drew examples from other styles to demonstrate possible answers to the  questions.  At no time did I advocate that Kenpoists incorporate any of these alternate methods -- only that they consider them in formulating their answers to the thread's question.  

If my posts on Martialtalk and the Kenponet have lead you to believe that I believe that those who don't cross-train are idiots, then you have totally misunderstood me and I have failed to clearly communicate my philosophy.  That is not what I believe.  I do believe that Kenpoists who ignore other arts are missing important opportunities to better understand and improve their own Kenpo practice.  If you read any of my posts on non-Kenpo forums (fightauthority, nhbgear, defend.net, jiu-jitsu.net) you would discover that I publicly defend Kenpo to BJJ and MMA fanatics who question Kenpo's effectiveness far more strongly than I do on this forum.

As to my ruining the MartialTalk Kenpo froum--that is not what I hear from others here.  If you are so insecure in your Kenpo that you cannot bear to discuss alternative perspectives with other Kenpoists, then so be it.  I will continue to offer my limited wisdom as garnered from my 30 years of study of non-mainstream EPAK/Tracy-derived Kenpo, Shotokan, Aikijujitsu, Escrima, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu until such time as I am banned or find something better to do with my free time at work.


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *As to my ruining the MartialTalk Kenpo froum--that is not what I hear from others here.  If you are so insecure in your Kenpo that you cannot bear to discuss alternative perspectives with other Kenpoists, then so be it.  I will continue to offer my limited wisdom as garnered from my 30 years of study of non-mainstream EPAK/Tracy-derived Kenpo, Shotokan, Aikijujitsu, Escrima, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu until such time as I am banned or find something better to do with my free time at work. *



I was here when this site was just a baby .. I don't THINK/FEEL
that it's happened, I've SEEN it.  Where are the vast numbers of
your supporters?!?!  They're OBVIOUSLY not posting!

I'm not insecure in kenpo, I don't know enough to be secure or
insecure.  But I DO KNOW that I used to come here and actually
learn a thing or two, and since yours, MJS' and TOD's arrival .. that
has happened, but very rarely.  I also know that the 3 of you 
have knowledge that far exceeds mine, and that's never been
an issue.   It's also not an issue of what other kenpoists can and
can't bear to discuss .. I just want to discuss something fricken
else for a change!  I guess you feel quite happy with yourself, for
dominating a board and losing the vivid flavor it once had.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 15, 2003)

Kirk:  

I've made about 250 posts in three months.  Didn't realize that was dominating the forum.  I've tried to tone down my rhetoric and I've tried to post Kenpo oriented (rather than cross-training advocacy) on several threads.  I've also avoided several Kenpo technical threads where others are more qualified to answer than I am.  My objective in reading this forum is to learn.  My objective in posting here is to provide an alternative viewpoint.  This is motivated by a pro-Kenpo concern that some Kenpoists are becoming very tradition-bound while the martial arts world is undergoing a major transformation.

A few people have PM'd or e-mailed me to express appreciation for my posts.  A few others have posted their objection to the cross-training "hijack" on a couple of threads.  You are the first to tell me that you think my presense has seriously detracted from the site.  

I'll try to take a constructive approach wherever I can.   I'll try to talk about Kenpo whenever I have something to contribute.  I'll avoid threads where I have nothing to contribute.  But, I will  continue to opine about training methodologies and techniques wherever I think an alternative perspective can benefit a Kenpoist.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 15, 2003)

> Billings:
> what he did do, is provide us with a framework, and conceptual basis for analyzation of what is and is not USLESS. Don't you think he would have eliminated a training horse or basics from the system if he did not see value? I think he would have!!! I see the value, just because you can't does not mean, "Your opinion is correct."



Yikes, looks like we have a little thread leakage from the technical forum.  Mr. Parker appears to have been a "Middle of the Road" man.  If you don't think so then answer this question:  Was everybody who ever tested in front of him judged with the same standards?  How about this one, when Mr. P changed things in the association did he demand that everyone change with him?  Just because there are things in the system doesn't necessarily mean that he wanted to keep them there.  Being a good business man means keeping the clientele happy, and it sure is hard to keep them happy when you disrupt their technique order or the # of techniques or even the way you do the techniques.  If you don't believe me, look at the reasons people left over the years and all of the goofy arguments that are all over this forum.  Here's an example * Whats better 32-24-16 tech system? *
Well by your argument the 16 tech system would be the best since that was his final incarnation that he was trying to disseminate to the community.  Mr. Parker undoubtedly kept a lot of things he didn't like, and let people do a lot of things that he didn't agree with because he was a middle of the road kind of guy and knew how to run a BUSINESS.  That doesn't mean that he didn't teach CERTAIN people to be great kenpoists, it just means while he was teaching them he was also running a business.



> Yes, I could make do with 20 or 30 to defend myself, but that is not the complete goal in understanding or executing the sophisticated system that we all study. The techniques give us a vehicle for finding applications, from any possible position in which we may find ourselves. Try it with anyone in the Art over 20 years, and I bet they will use a piece of a technique whether seated, laying down or standing on their heads . Heck, you don't have to be at it 20 years, I just wanted you to have some perspective, and realize some of the Seniors do read this Board, they don't comment on the forum, but in private, the shake their heads, laugh, and say "they just don't get it".



Look, I personally think Kenpo is a great art, but I also think that some of the SOLUTIONS that kenpo provides to topics like groundfighting are virtually inadequate and in some cases could get you hurt pretty bad.  How is this for an analogy?  There are certain instances where your family practice doctor can perform surgery on you.  Now would you rather have someone who performs this particular surgery once every two years, or would you rather have a specialist who does 5 a day.  That's the way I look at the groundfighting issue, sure kenpo offers a solution to everything but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best solution.  I believe kenpo is what it is, which is a standup fighting art.  Just because you do a technique on the ground doesn't mean you know groundfighting.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 15, 2003)

A very good point was made a while back...

Kenpoists need to be able to react spontaneously in a self-defense drill or street situation.  Enough alternatives need to be learned to enable the Kenpoist to respond with instant effectiveness in a large variety of situation.  I believe this can be done with 16, 24, 25, 30, 32, 40, or however-many techniques per belt.  

The important question is not how many techniques are required per belt.  The important question is what level of proficiency is required per belt.  Required proficiency must include the ability to choose and/or create techniques on the fly when the attack is unknown or does not unfold according to plan.   

Technique training must develop the ability for spontaneous reaction at some point in the student's training.  At my school, this requirement started very early and was part of every test starting at Orange Belt.  Brown Belts had to be able to respond effectively to unplanned or unknown attacks during technique drills.  By Black Belt, spontaneous reaction during technique-line had to generate techniques of equal or greater complexity and effectiveness as the canned techniques each and every time.  

That ability to spontaneously execute effective techniques separated the Brown Belts from the lower belts and the Black Belts from the Brown Belts much more than the actual number of techniques memorized.


----------



## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Kirk:
> 
> I've made about 250 posts in three months.  Didn't realize that was dominating the forum.  I've tried to tone down my rhetoric and I've tried to post Kenpo oriented (rather than cross-training advocacy) on several threads.  I've also avoided several Kenpo technical threads where others are more qualified to answer than I am.  My objective in reading this forum is to learn.  My objective in posting here is to provide an alternative viewpoint.  This is motivated by a pro-Kenpo concern that some Kenpoists are becoming very tradition-bound while the martial arts world is undergoing a major transformation.
> ...



Well, I for one, appreciate people like OFK, TOD, Kenpo Yahoo and the others!  Keep up the great posts guys! 

I dont believe that any of us has every told anyone to stop training.  I've said this hundreds of times, and yeah, its beating a dead horse, but rather than always put the people who cross train down, why not look at it from our point of view jsut for a min. and ask why we like to crosstrain and what can get gotten from it.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> [
> Look, I personally think Kenpo is a great art, but I also think that some of the SOLUTIONS that kenpo provides to topics like groundfighting are virtually inadequate and in some cases could get you hurt pretty bad.  How is this for an analogy?  There are certain instances where your family practice doctor can perform surgery on you.  Now would you rather have someone who performs this particular surgery once every two years, or would you rather have a specialist who does 5 a day.  That's the way I look at the groundfighting issue, sure kenpo offers a solution to everything but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best solution.  I believe kenpo is what it is, which is a standup fighting art.  Just because you do a technique on the ground doesn't mean you know groundfighting. [/B]



You are correct.  It does offer SOME solutions, but many stand a good chance of not working.  Thinking that you're gonna be able to reach someones face, while they are sitting on top of you punching down at you is not gonna happen.  There is too great a reach advantage for the top guy.  Knowing what to do to escape and get back to your feet where you can continue to use the strikes and kicks is the goal, not roll for 20 min.

Mike


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 15, 2003)

Personally, I get pretty tired of the, "you've ruined the discussion," claims. Which I too get from time to time...there's kvetching on KenpoNet right now, apparently because I asked somebody who they were and what their point was...typically, it seems to be that the folks who receive these claims haven't kowtowed enough to say, Bruce Lee, or haven't agreed fast enough...

I wish folks would use their real names, that's for sure. And I despise some of the cowardly, anonymous attacks I've read (no, NOT OFK...haven't seen any personal attacks, just stubborn disagreements, what I take for inaccuracies,  and at times some pomposity, the last of which I am not in a position to complain about)...but in the end, it's just words, just a forum. 

As for the last post...I find that what I tend to disagree with people about is the nature of teaching in kenpo. Spontaneity after internalization, I think...not fingerpainting passed off as creativity....


----------



## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

As for making posts that are more closly related to Kenpo--- I've seen many on here.  However, its only a matter of time, before a poster makes a comment that gets totally blown up and misunderstood by others, and then that person is accused of talking about cross training.  Even if it is a topic that is soley about Kenpo, rather than try to have a polite discussion, the egos of some who appear to know more than others, and think nothing about bragging about it, make a negative comment towards that person.  This in turn, starts a verbal war.  Why the negative responses?  Why cant a simple explaination be given?  If these people are such high ranks and have a high skill level as they say, then the answer they give should be more professional

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 15, 2003)

Robert:  Thank you.  I admit the sins of stubbornness, pomposity, and frequent inaccuracy.  My wife frequently reminds me of these faults.  As for using a psuedonym rather than my real name...my real name is in my profile.  Few people in EPAK know me so it wouldn't make me any less anonymous than my psuedonym.


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Spontaneity after internalization, I think...not fingerpainting passed off as creativity.... *



You can have many different movements in different stages at once. So the spontaneity of a movement may occur at the same time you're trying to internalize other.

I think it was the Goldendragon the one who stated that you should have internalized the techniques from two belts below your current degree.

Also, fwiw, I believe that there are people out there which aren't creative enough to get too far on the spontaneity stage, or even never arrive there. For these people, having 600 techs, like in Tracy's kenpo, may be an important issue. 

Not everybody is capable of being a master, and not everybody wants to be one (a master's life is not easy).

Just my opinion.

And thanks OFK and Robert for bringing this thread back on topic.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I was here when this site was just a baby .. I don't THINK/FEEL
> that it's happened, I've SEEN it.  Where are the vast numbers of
> your supporters?!?!  They're OBVIOUSLY not posting!
> ...


I totaly support Old Fat Kenpoka and I feel if we ruined the MA Talk then it was on its last knees to begin with. Perhaps Clyde and yourself could just not post if your so sick of our input. Clyde tells me he voided me from view. We no longer fight.
Sean


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## arnisador (Aug 15, 2003)

Remember, there is an Ignore feature which will keep the ignored person(s)'s posts from appearing in threads you view.

We appreciate the fact that so many people contribute to the discussion here. Disagreements are inevitable. Many can be taken to e-mail.

Thanks to those working to bring this thread back on track. We do ask that threads remain relatively on-topic. We can split parts of threads off by request.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

Well I've definitely posted LOADS less, as well as MANY others.
IMO it started when you guys showed up.  There used to be 100
new posts in the kenpo forum each hour, for a few hours straight.


----------



## KenpoTess (Aug 15, 2003)

I like to hear everyone's viewpoint.. not just the same handful over and over again..  That is what makes a forum... 

Tess


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Well I've definitely posted LOADS less, as well as MANY others.
> IMO it started when you guys showed up.  There used to be 100
> new posts in the kenpo forum each hour, for a few hours straight. *


 .
Kirk, yeah and maybe its summer and people have better things to do than stroke your ego on the internet.
Sean


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *.
> Kirk, yeah and maybe its summer and people have better things to do than stroke your ego on the internet.
> Sean *



Yeah, okay ... I post to get my ego fed  

Kaith, how about some stats here?  Maybe a graph of the number
of postings, in a sine wave of posts per month since MT Began.
It's NOT because of the summer.  Keep dreamin!


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## KenpoTess (Aug 15, 2003)

Let's keep it on topic guys 
and have some ice cream cuz it is hot out !!


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 15, 2003)

I've only posted twice on this thread but my name has come up numerous times.     The ignore feature works wonderfully tho.  

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

Well, if some of the people that no longer post did not get so easily offended by what others have to say Kirk, then maybe there would be more posts.  If some of those with all of the great knowledge contributed to the discussion, and maybe proved some of the cross trainers wrong, well, maybe we would not talk about it sooo much.  Seems to me that people who have nothing to say, is because deep down, maybe they know that it is important, but just can't bring themselves to admit it!

Also, TOD was right--due to the fact that it is Summer, some of the postings have dropped a little.  Its really no differnet than at a MA school.. Are you going to tell me that the enrollment stays the same during the Summer?? Yeah, keep dreamin!!!!

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *I've only posted twice on this thread but my name has come up numerous times.     The ignore feature works wonderfully tho.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Another fine example of 2 things-

1- close minded

2- not wanting to take part in the discussion

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Aug 15, 2003)

I for one have noted and appreciated your sticking more to the Kenpo end of the spectrum lately.  I do not find myself ignoring your posts, not that I really did before, but now they seem more reasoned and get more of my consideration ... not that my opinion has to mean anything to anyone.  

I also have seen lots of my friends in the Art dropping off the scope lately.  This is disconcerting for me and I do not think it can be limited to a few posters.  The time of year, the number of seminars and events lately, and other factors may play into the decline of posts on the Kenpo General and Technical sides.  

Speaking for myself, I have chosen not to respond to a bunch of threads when the CrossTraining Kenpoist are on a roll.  It is just not worth my energy.  I just go to the school and teach in my own limited way.  I know your frustration Kirk ... I am just not sure of the cause and effect, but agree it is happening.  You don't see Mr. Conatser here much, Doc has toned down recently, my students and acquaintances  that I met through seminars are not posting as much as usual.  I think there is some validity to the cause and effect of the "guys who don't get it."  That expression came from at least three of the most senior Black Belts in Kenpo.  They have expressed disgust with the focus on grappling, then in camps or seminars address this directly with Kenpo Solutions.  

Ah well, sic gloria transit Kenpo.


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## Les (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *.
> Kirk, yeah and maybe its summer and people have better things to do than stroke your ego on the internet.
> Sean *



I don't feel it's necessary to indulge in personal comments of this type.

This forum has always been one of the better ones, lets keep it that way, please.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it wouldn't hurt to express yourself in a courteous manner.

Maybe it would be appropiate to reflect on the Blue Belt Pledge, or even the 3rd Brown Pledge.

Respectfully,

Les


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Well, if some of the people that no longer post did not get so easily offended by what others have to say Kirk, then maybe there would be more posts.  If some of those with all of the great knowledge contributed to the discussion, and maybe proved some of the cross trainers wrong, well, maybe we would not talk about it sooo much.  Seems to me that people who have nothing to say, is because deep down, maybe they know that it is important, but just can't bring themselves to admit it!
> *



Or maybe it's because regardless of what they say, one of you
pops in with crosstraining crosstraining crosstraining.  Someone
could come out and say "gee, it's hot outside" and you'd reply
with "That's cause you don't cross train!"



> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Also, TOD was right--due to the fact that it is Summer, some of the postings have dropped a little.  Its really no differnet than at a MA school.. Are you going to tell me that the enrollment stays the same during the Summer?? Yeah, keep dreamin!!!!
> *



You're fond of putting words in people's mouths, aren't ya?  I 
never once not ever did I say that enrollment in an MA school 
does a darned thing.  Jeez dude, come off of it!  How long have
you 3 been members of this site?  You wouldn't know what it
was like _before_ you got here, would you???


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

Kirk--RE READ the post please!!!

I was comparing the drop in posts and TOD"S comment about Summer to enrollment in MA schools.  I know you made no ref. to that.  I was simply saying that it is the same reason people take a break from MA training----vacations, other activities, etc.

Before you assume, why dont you think before you post!

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> Jeez dude, come off of it!  How long have
> you 3 been members of this site?  You wouldn't know what it
> was like _before_ you got here, would you??? [/B]



Nope, I wouldn't.  I can only guess though that things were probably the same as they are now, with the same people, having the same closed mind, wanting everybody to follow them around like a puppet, taking everything they say as gospel, because the people saying it seem to know soooo much.  

Mike


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 15, 2003)

Some points here:

1, Traffic:
A decrease in overall traffic is normal during summer, especially during the weekends.  Given that a large portion of our members are in the 'snowy' areas, its no wonder theres been a decrease in traffic.  Add to that the large number of vacations, seminars all over the place seemingly every weekend, its gonna be slower.  The net as a whole is slightly less busy this time of year.

2, The debates:
I've said it before.  The chitchats nice, but I believe the majority come to forums to get good information.  Its hard to find the nuggests of wisdom when it often times seems like a threads degenerated into "more of the same" type arguments.  By that I mean, the 'credential checks', the 'dead horse arguments', and the 'why art x stinks'.  People will argue about the completeness or lack there of of their arts nonstop.  The problem is, the 'noice to signal' ratio goes up, so many stop reading, and as a result posting.


This threads a good example of what is wrong here.  We are already off on at least 2-3 different tangents.

I said this in another forum here, but I think it bears repeating.
I give you guys a spot.  I can't fill it with anything.  Thats for you to do.  Now, you can use it as a battleground, and a place to piss n moan, or you can make it a shining jewel and a great resource to the Kenpo Community.  The choice it really yours.

We've run the Kenpo-General area as a lightly moderated zone.  We can increase the moderation in here, but we need your help so it stays on a freindly level.  That means, starting a new thread when you find yourself drifting.  That means biting your tongue before lashing out.  That means keeping your mind open.

Put another way, would Mr. Parker like this board?  If you are an instructor, whould you want your students reading this? Or..reading what -you- just posted?  If the answer to those questions is a 'no', then, how do we fix it so they become yes?

Think about it folks....If you see problems, offer viable solutions. The house may be on fire, but standing there pointing and yelling wont put it out.  You have to grab a bucket and work along side us.

Peace.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Kirk--RE READ the post please!!!
> 
> I was comparing the drop in posts and TOD"S comment about Summer to enrollment in MA schools.  I know you made no ref. to that.  I was simply saying that it is the same reason people take a break from MA training----vacations, other activities, etc.
> ...





> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Are you going to tell me that the enrollment stays the same during the Summer?? Yeah, keep dreamin!!!!
> *


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## Kirk (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Nope, I wouldn't.  I can only guess though that things were probably the same as they are now, with the same people, having the same closed mind, wanting everybody to follow them around like a puppet, taking everything they say as gospel, because the people saying it seem to know soooo much.
> 
> Mike *




That's where you'd be incorrect.


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2003)

Dont really know where you're heading Kirk???

You mentioned the drop in posts due to the talk about grappling/crosstraining.  TOD said that it is due to the Summer.  I was agreeing with that,and simply said that the drop in posts is no differnet that a drop in school enrollment during the Summer.

Mike


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## jeffkyle (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> *Maybe it would be appropiate to reflect on the Blue Belt Pledge, or even the 3rd Brown Pledge.
> 
> Respectfully,
> ...



Les,

I have to say I sure do like seeing reference to things like this.  It makes you think about your spectrum of knowledge.  Is it JUST physical, or is it mental too.   
Keep it up!


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## Turner (Aug 15, 2003)

What is the deal with the personal attacks? No matter what cause you stand for, there is no honor and no point in making attacks personal. There is no honor in defending yourself against these personal attacks either. Leave it alone.

No matter how much I dislike the manner Kirk made his point, he still has a point. The issue of cross training and etc is a dead horse that has been beaten. For the most part we all know where we all stand and we should leave it at that. There have been some very well written posts on both sides and it is doubtful that there will be any more posts that may suddenly convince one side that the other is more right. Leave it alone.

This is a Kenpo forum so let's talk about Kenpo. Progression of the art and efficiency is a Kenpo subject, but it doesn't need to be spread into 1000 different threads. Keep this one alive and continue to beat the dead horse of efficiency and cross training in here so that if someone knew comes along and has questions about this particular subject they can be directed here.

Once again about the personal attacks: I've always felt that forums are the perfect place to develop a certain degree of camradarie with fellow artists and to share ideas through discussion. Most people that attend forums are interested in doing just that, however it is amazing that some don't realize that it isn't just WHAT is being said that is important and lends credibility to the statement, it is HOW it is said. Once you start attacking someone, no matter whether it is justified or not, you instantly lose that credibility. If you want your point of view considered then you must naturally conduct yourself with the highest level of honor and restraint.

Growing up, some one told me "Yell and you'll be ignored. Speak softly so that people have to make an effort to hear and your words will have an impact." I've always found this to be true.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 15, 2003)

I am tired of this thread...... I think the  "Ban Monster" needs to be summoned. 

:rofl:


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## pineapple head (Aug 15, 2003)

I started it, please ban monster please strike me!


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> *What is the deal with the personal attacks? No matter what cause you stand for, there is no honor and no point in making attacks personal. There is no honor in defending yourself against these personal attacks either. Leave it alone.
> 
> No matter how much I dislike the manner Kirk made his point, he still has a point. The issue of cross training and etc is a dead horse that has been beaten. For the most part we all know where we all stand and we should leave it at that. There have been some very well written posts on both sides and it is doubtful that there will be any more posts that may suddenly convince one side that the other is more right. Leave it alone.
> ...


Sirs,
I for one think calling cross training a dead horse that should just go away is not going to preserve the "integrety" of Kenpo. You can close your eyes and hope it goes away but it won't. And finding some senior that will shake their head and say "we just don't get it" it not hard. The truth is you can never go home because you are home. "on the dirty blvd." Lou Reed . Rather than wishing we didn't exist perhaps someone could articulate why we are in fact wrong for a change.
Sean


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## Michael Billings (Aug 15, 2003)

Excellent post and a good effort.  I concur whole heartedly.  

Let this be the thread where the CrossTraining Kenpo guys dwell.  And we can keep the conflict alive as TOD, Kirk, and to some extent myself, insist upon, while perhaps other threads can go towards things Kenpo?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 15, 2003)

At this point, I'm locking this thread.  I think enough rounds have been exchanged by now.

If y'all want to discuss techniques, histories, lineages, seminares, add-ons, theory etc, please start a new thread.

If you want to discuss in a civil manner how cross training can be of benifit, please start a new thread.

If you want to discuss how everything you need can be found in its totallity in Kenpo, please start a new thread.

If ya want to discuss non-martial arts related stuff, please visit the 'locker room'.

If ya just wanna have a random BS session and chit-chat, please use the chat room.

Regardless of where you go, regardless of if you disagree or agree, keep it respectful.

To those who tried to steer this train wreck, thank you.



This thread is now locked.


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