# Karate does not come from White Crane



## VPT (May 26, 2017)

Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers and try to be critical about one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.

So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane), which itself is a hybrid of Southern Luohan and Crane methods. Assuming we know nothing of Crying Crane (and that the connection to him is certain), we should be equally safe to assume that Karate traces itself to Luohan as well.

Now, how certain we are that Goju-ryu (at least) has Crying Crane at its core? Easiest thing is to look at the katas. If Higaonna has been a student of Xie Zhongxiang, he should have learned some Crying Crane routines. So which forms does the style teach nowadays? Apparently at least following: Babulian, Ershiba su, Zhongkuang, Roujian and Qijing. They might also have Sanchin, but I cannot verify it 100 %. Higaonna himself, however, most likely taught only four katas: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Suparimpei. None of the forms match.

We could of course go on saying that these Crane forms have been added later on and were not among those taught by Xie Zhongxiang. To scrutinize this, we have to look at his other students and see what they have taught. Luckily we know one, Huang Xinxiang. He was later in his martial arts career a student of Taiji master Zheng Manqing (is usually written, like, Cheng Man Ch'ing or something?) and later created his own Huang-style taiji. This style of taiji is curious since it actually contains few crane forms. Which ones? Babulian and Ershiba su, renamed Sanfeng Kuaiquan (Three Peaks Quick Fist; after the peaks of Wudang mountains, I guess). Thus we can say that Xie Zhongxiang taught at least Babulian and Ershiba su, but Kanryo Higaonna never learned those core forms of the style. Why?

To me the simplest explanation is, already with this non-historical forms transmission only -analysis, that Xie Zhongxiang is NOT Ru Ru Ko and Crying Crane has nothing to do with karate.

What do you think?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (May 26, 2017)

I think it is good to do historical analysis and attempt to learn more about the roots of the arts we practice.  I have no objections to anyone who seeks to learn more about the joint history of all martial arts.

At the same time, and meaning no disrespect, I find it doesn't matter much to me in any _practical _sense.

I train as I train.  I learn what I am taught, to the best of my ability.  If my instructor should choose to say _"We get this from XYZ in China,"_ I do not argue, nor will I at any point.  I don't know if it is a factual statement or not, but again, speaking only for myself, it doesn't matter.  Who cares how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin?

Ultimately, I am pleased that the style I practice works well and I enjoy it.  It could come from the Moon for all I care.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 26, 2017)

Given the shared kata found in Fukien crane and at least some karate systems, it is fair to say that crane was at least an influence on karate.  But karate, or it's forerunner at least, was practiced in Okinawa before the crane influences arrived.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Given the shared kata found in Fukien crane and at least some karate systems, it is fair to say that crane was at least an influence on karate.  But karate, or it's forerunner at least, was practiced in Okinawa before the crane influences arrived.


So White Crane is just one of many tricks.


----------



## VPT (May 26, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think it is good to do historical analysis and attempt to learn more about the roots of the arts we practice.  I have no objections to anyone who seeks to learn more about the joint history of all martial arts.
> 
> At the same time, and meaning no disrespect, I find it doesn't matter much to me in any _practical _sense.



Look up any Karate-related blog or a club or association website, and you'll be bound to see either erroneous claims or outlandish nonsense related to people or history. The research has its place in keeping facts straight. 



Flying Crane said:


> Given the shared kata found in Fukien crane and at least some karate systems, it is fair to say that crane was at least an influence on karate.  But karate, or it's forerunner at least, was practiced in Okinawa before the crane influences arrived.



Which kata you have in mind? Nepaipo does not count, because it was introduced by Go Kenki and later learnt from him by Kenwa Mabuni (whose Shito-ryu might have more than 50 kata now) and Juhatsu Kyoda (whose To'on-ryu is taught by only one dojo in Okinawa). Hardly an influence, I'd say. Happoren is taught by only a few Goju-ryu dojos, it's not part of the curriculum by any minor lineage and they don't even seem to know it's applications. I can't think of any other but those two forms having any significance to karate.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 26, 2017)

VPT said:


> Look up any Karate-related blog or a club or association website, and you'll be bound to see either erroneous claims or outlandish nonsense related to people or history. The research has its place in keeping facts straight.
> 
> 
> 
> Which kata you have in mind? Nepaipo does not count, because it was introduced by Go Kenki and later learnt from him by Kenwa Mabuni (whose Shito-ryu might have more than 50 kata now) and Juhatsu Kyoda (whose To'on-ryu is taught by only one dojo in Okinawa). Hardly an influence, I'd say. Happoren is taught my only a few Goju-ryu dojos, it's not part of the curriculum by any minor lineage and they don't even seem to know it's applications. I can't think of any other but those to forms having any significance to karate.


Sanchin


----------



## VPT (May 26, 2017)

I don't have enough fingers to count how many different versions of Sanchin I have seen. And the Crane versions are some of the most dissimilar ones.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (May 26, 2017)

VPT said:


> Look up any Karate-related blog or a club or association website, and you'll be bound to see either erroneous claims or outlandish nonsense related to people or history. The research has its place in keeping facts straight.



Yes, I agree and I think I said that historical research has its place and is important.  You asked "what do you think."  My answer is "I do not care."  I wanted to be polite and acknowledge historical research is a good thing in general.  But I do not lie awake at night worrying that some website says the wrong thing about the history of karate.  It has zero impact on my training.

Here's an analogy.  I love the fact that scientists continue to research the basic building blocks of life.  Yet no matter what they find, it doesn't affect my daily life.  So while it is important, I don't particularly care.  I won't change anything about myself based on any finding they make.  I just keep living until one day I won't.


----------



## Tez3 (May 26, 2017)

VPT said:


> Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers



That's trolling.



VPT said:


> one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.



I've been doing karate for decades and never heard that myth. Chinese martial arts yes, 'White Crane' no.


----------



## Headhunter (May 26, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think it is good to do historical analysis and attempt to learn more about the roots of the arts we practice.  I have no objections to anyone who seeks to learn more about the joint history of all martial arts.
> 
> At the same time, and meaning no disrespect, I find it doesn't matter much to me in any _practical _sense.
> 
> ...


Agreed at the end of the day what's martial arts for? To train and practice for whatever your reasons. It's not about learning it's history. Personally I know very little about any of my styles history and it doesn't make a difference to me


----------



## Flying Crane (May 26, 2017)

VPT said:


> I don't have enough fingers to count how many different versions of Sanchin I have seen. And the Crane versions are some of the most dissimilar ones.


Of course they are not all identical.  But, more similar than not.
Clearly they come from the same source.
You can't see that?


----------



## VPT (May 26, 2017)

I'm not going to flood this thread with links demonstrating the prevalence of the thought how Karate and White Crane has a connection. It's perhaps less spread in Japanese karate styles, yet I still seem to hear that a lot from the less "karate-educated" practicioners. Only thing more delusional than White Crane is the idea that karate has somehow evolved from Shaolin. Like, really?

Studying the history of your said art is one of the ways to analyse and apply constructive criticism to your methods and training. It's one of the ways to learn how things were done before and why. 



Flying Crane said:


> Of course they [Sanchins] are not all identical.  But, more similar than not.
> Clearly they come from the same source.
> You can't see that?



I have no good reason or convincing proof to believe that Sanzhan of White Crane and Sanchin of Goju (and Uechi-ryu) would have any other connection than common ancestry. Which of course does not guarantee or even imply any mutual interaction at any time of history. Why would White Crane and Goju be more related than, say, Goju and Tiger? Fujian Tiger shares the same ancestry as well.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 26, 2017)

Go back and read my first post.

Report back to me on what I said.


----------



## Tez3 (May 26, 2017)

VPT said:


> It's perhaps less spread in Japanese karate styles, yet I still seem to hear that a lot from the less "karate-educated" practicioners



'Japanese karate styles' are you trying to tell us there's non Japanese karate styles now?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I've been doing karate for decades and never heard that myth. Chinese martial arts yes, 'White Crane' no.


I've seen White Crane listed as the probable CMA influence on Karate multiple times, including on this forum and Wikipedia.



Tez3 said:


> 'Japanese karate styles' are you trying to tell us there's non Japanese karate styles now?


??? Of course there are. Karate started in Okinawa, _before_ the islands were annexed by Japan. The term "Japanese" Karate is generally reserved for those systems derived from Okinawan Karate which were developed in the home islands of Japan subsequent to that annexation. They have noticeable stylistic differences from the Okinawan styles, being influenced by Japanese culture and other Japanese martial arts.

There are also forms of American Karate, such as practiced by @Buka.

Tae Kwon do and its sibling arts got their start as Korean offshoots of Japanese Karate. (I believe Tang Soo Do is just the Korean pronunciation of the original kanji for "Karate", before it was changed by the Japanese from "China hand" to "Empty hand.") Those arts have developed their own identity now, but when I was a kid I saw them being advertised on school signs as "Korean Karate."

I don't know what other nationalities might have their own versions of Karate, but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that there are more.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> 'Japanese karate styles' are you trying to tell us there's non Japanese karate styles now?


Okinawan?


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> 'Japanese karate styles' are you trying to tell us there's non Japanese karate styles now?


Sorry Tez,   they are called okinawan.  While okinawa is part of Japan now that was not always true.
To the Okinawans themselves, okinawan karate is okinawan and Japanese is japanese.


----------



## Tez3 (May 26, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Sorry Tez,   they are called okinawan.  While okinawa is part of Japan now that was not always true.
> To the Okinawans themselves, okinawan karate is okinawan and Japanese is japanese.



I have the feeling though he's talking about non Japanese, non Okinawan 'karate', there are a great many places that teach 'karate' but it's actually TKD etc. Karate is a generic name for martial arts in many people's eyes. I was also being sarcastic.


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 26, 2017)

VPT said:


> Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers and try to be critical about one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.
> 
> So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane), which itself is a hybrid of Southern Luohan and Crane methods. Assuming we know nothing of Crying Crane (and that the connection to him is certain), we should be equally safe to assume that Karate traces itself to Luohan as well.
> 
> ...



The idea that karate derived from white crane would be based on a whole lot of assumptions. The problem with your post and counter argument is that it also is based on a lot of assumptions that are equally questionable.
What style of martial art do you train?
Are you familiar with the various styles of karate, similarities, differences and history?  
Are you aware of the history of martial arts  in china?  
The cultural nuances of Chinese martial arts? 
Who the Hakka people are/ were?
The time frames these arts were studied by the Okinawans?
 The list of factors goes on and on.


----------



## Tez3 (May 26, 2017)

In his very first post the OP says he's 'stirring things up', I thought that wasn't allowed around here?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (May 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> In his very first post the OP says he's 'stirring things up', I thought that wasn't allowed around here?



I took it to mean 'stimulating conversation' rather than 'inciting a riot'.



In any case, I understand and support legitimate historic exploration of the common roots (such as may exist) of our arts.  I just don't find it to be something that dominates my life or thinking.


----------



## Buka (May 26, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There are also forms of American Karate, such as practiced by @Buka.



Best to go to official Martial sources. Hence, I opened my official Martial source book -

*American Karate - *Noun (on a good day)
A·mer·i·can ka·ra·te....... . /əˈmerəkən/  kəˈrädē/

_Bunch of guys who did karate came back from serving overseas. Opened some schools, many next to ice cream pallors. Some other guy, called it American Karate. He must have had an extra flag or something.
Technically, it doesn't exist. Except for maybe Master Ken. Anyone who claims to practice said Art should be taken as shady at best._

Nowhere did I find any reference to White Crane. However, looking at myself in the mirror, I suspect White Eyebrow Kung Fu might be involved.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 26, 2017)

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:






This is Karate Sanchin:


----------



## hoshin1600 (May 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.
> 
> This is white crane San Zhan:
> 
> ...



i am not sure what your point is of posting these youtube clips. it serves no purpose.  first clip is a style of san zhan that has no "DNA markers"  that are related to karate. and the second clip is a video of a relative modern form created Chojun Miyagi.


----------



## Buka (May 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.
> 
> This is white crane San Zhan:
> 
> ...



Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.


----------



## JP3 (May 27, 2017)

To be perfectly frank about it, I think that the martial art (arts if you want to be precise) that I practice have only the same level of relationship to what was taught/created in Asia as shoe technology then has to shoe technology now.  In other words, I think things continue to grow, develop, some things slough off (perhaps unfortunately in some cases) some things are cast away for various reasons (both good and bad), and so forth.

The aikido transmitted to me via Ray and Nick simply does not "look" like the video we have of Tomiki practicing. It is odd to say, but watching those old clips, we see form and posture breaks that we are training out of white belts now because, to us, they are obviously and proveably incorrect.  So, are we missing something, or was he? Either could be accurate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.


I don't know. I don't train white crane.


----------



## TaiChiTJ (May 27, 2017)

This has a karate-like look to me. Its not identified as white crane though. I would really like to know what he is doing when he rotates his forearm after the punch. He has breathing going on too. Has a nice flow to it.


----------



## DanT (May 29, 2017)

Buka said:


> Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.


The shaking is caused by him tensing up his arms so much they shake. It's called Shaking Power (dynamic tension). It serves to strengthen the muscles and ligaments and tendons.


----------



## DanT (May 29, 2017)

TaiChiTJ said:


> This has a karate-like look to me. Its not identified as white crane though. I would really like to know what he is doing when he rotates his forearm after the punch. He has breathing going on too. Has a nice flow to it.


It's called "dynamic tension" and serves to strengthen the muscles, tendons, and ligaments.


----------



## DanT (May 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know. I don't train white crane.


Check my response.


----------



## iain_meyers (Jun 23, 2017)

VPT said:


> Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers and try to be critical about one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.
> 
> So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane), which itself is a hybrid of Southern Luohan and Crane methods. Assuming we know nothing of Crying Crane (and that the connection to him is certain), we should be equally safe to assume that Karate traces itself to Luohan as well.
> 
> ...



Interesting post. Where do you think karate came from?


----------



## iain_meyers (Jun 23, 2017)

5 ancestor fist?


----------



## DaveB (Jun 23, 2017)

Hello all,

The main white crane connection that I am aware of is secret passing of the bubishi around by various Okinawan experts.

Goju ryu has an obvious resemblance to hakka kungfu and all those millions of southern styles resemble one another supposedly because they share a connection to white crane.

I knew of one research group that didn't even classify goju as karate but rather as a style of kungfu.

Is the specific style a progenitor to karate? Maybe, maybe not, but saying so is in my view a reasonable shorthand for the southern Chinese connection that is definitely real.


----------

