# Real World Attacks



## Earl Weiss (Aug 4, 2012)

The issue was raised in another thread about the most common real world attack (not sparring situations.). Now we need some parameters. I wish to limit this to Civilians and non weapons. Also to adults. I am sure there is plenty of pushing and shoving on the playground.  I also want to limit it to the first overt physical act.   We could spend volumes on the precursers. It should involve some sort of confrontation as opposed to an ambush style mugging / attack. 

My OPINION is that it is the right hand punch to the head. The basis for this opinion had it's genesis after reading Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's guide to Barrroom Brawling (1990) and "Real Fighting"  Following this around the same time Al Gore's interet provided caught on video examples and  this opinion became solidified. 

Moast recently Black Belt Mag. Aug. 2012 page 64 "Self Defense 101" published an analysis of attacks. Details are provided about the search parameters but still somewhat scarce.  Admittedly the sample of 50 wasn't huge. 
Results were 78% were punches. 85% were with the right hand, and 97% of the punches were to the face. 

 Grab 10% and Kick 8%  Would have been interesting if there was a statement as to followups to a grab. (i.e. grabbing with one hand then punching with the other. )

Defender's first reaction - Punch 68% , all to the face. Grab 18%. 

In 52% of videos one person ended up on the ground.  I was at a seminar with Don Wilson who commented on the 98% go the ground idea saying that in his experience from his bouncing days that reflected one h\guy ending up on the ground. 

Please share your opinions and basis therefore.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 4, 2012)

I train with a couple of high ranking police officers. One night one of them told me that if all you practiced wad a defence against a right hook or straight punch to the face then you'd be right in the vast majority of encounters. After this subject was raised in the other thread I discussed it with a friend who has been a bouncer for over ten years. He agreed that almost every fight that breaks out in the clubs and pubs that he works at start with a punch (or attempted punch) to the head. You will never find exact statistics on this subject, but talking with police and bouncers will give you a pretty good idea.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 4, 2012)

From what ive seen, a punch to the head in some way shape or form.
Be it straight, hooked, haymaker, with a grab, without a grab, from the front, behind, side. 

Just generally speaking.
That isnt the only start ive seen but - Obviously its not the only way. But Im not drawing from a big enough pool here to comment much on anything other than what the majority of first strikes are.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 4, 2012)

Based on my limited observations, the most common unarmed attack would indeed be the right hand haymaker to the head, with or without a grab.  After that the most common attacks would probably be (in no particular order) left hand haymaker to the head, shove to the chest, football-style tackle, and headlock.  (The headlock might be used to choke, to set up punches, or to direct the opponents head into a solid object.)


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 4, 2012)

IMHO, Americans like to throw haymakers to the head.  And most are right-handed, so they throw the right hand to the head as the opening punch.  

Unless it's a sucker punch or the guy is just amazingly fast, it's not that hard to block, slip, or redirect.

Then what?


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## Gorilla (Aug 4, 2012)

I held various jobs in my youth that had physical confrontation...bouncer,repo man etc...lots of right hand haymakers...lots of pushing...the occasional picking up of what ever is handy....most people don't like to wrestle around on concrete...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> The issue was raised in another thread about the most common real world attack (not sparring situations.).



For context, here is the original quote that I questioned:



ralphmcpherson said:


> Master Weiss hit the nail on the head,  great post. I know we have discussed this subject to death and we are  all sick and tired of it, but one thing I have never understood is if  *99% of altercations start with someone throwing a face punch (and most  people in the know will tell you this is the case)*, then how can you  have a ruleset with no face punches and then tell students it is  preparing them for self defence?


You (Master Weiss) had said 'vast majority' rather than quoting a statistic.

My response to the statistic quote was this: "_If this figure is hard data, name a source who is "in the know" and  where they get their figures.  Is it the same source that provided the  '90% of all fights go to the ground,' which is also bogus because the  context represented as "all fights" was actually police officers  apprehending suspects_."

I wasn't questioning whether or not that attack was the most common; only the 99% statistic.



Earl Weiss said:


> Now we need some parameters. I wish to limit this to Civilians and non weapons. Also to adults. I am sure there is plenty of pushing and shoving on the playground.  I also want to limit it to the first overt physical act.   We could spend volumes on the precursers. It should involve some sort of confrontation as opposed to an ambush style mugging / attack.
> 
> My OPINION is that it is the right hand punch to the head. The basis for this opinion had it's genesis after reading Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's guide to Barrroom Brawling (1990) and "Real Fighting"  Following this around the same time Al Gore's interet provided caught on video examples and  this opinion became solidified.
> 
> ...


So in a sample size of 50 people who may or may not have all been from the same area, the conclusion is that a punch to the face is the first attack approximately 78% of the time in a real fight/altercation.  While such a small sample size hardly qualifies as scientific when the nations population is many millions, 78% is more believable than 99%.

I definitely don't buy into the 98% of all fights go to the ground, unless 99% of all fights happen in bars, in which case I'm happy to take the bouncer at his word.

I don't really have an opinion about the exact percentages; the sample size and data collection method rendered the statistics that it rendered.  The question that Ralph was asking in his post, and which others asked, was about the preparedness of a WTF taekwondoist for that particular attack and why WTF students are told that "_it is  preparing them for self defense_."  Whether that attack occurs 99% or 78% is unimportant in that context; all that matters is that it is a commonly encountered attack.

My response to Ralph on that subject was this:

"_No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense.  They all  develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical  areas.  

Secondly, I have never personally heard WTF sparring represented as  being analgous to a violent altercation in any school where I have  trained.  Practical SD has always been a separate part of the class.

Finally, every guard has its purpose, pros and cons.  Every guard leaves  something vital open (high guard leave open your entire lower body and  part of your torso, wherein most of your vitals are contained, and the  genitalia, which is a popular target).  Every guard does something  effective, be it in or out of competition.  Your arms can only guard but  so much of your body, so everyone who is involved in any kind of fight  sport finds ways to compensate for the uncovered areas.  Usually through  avoidance and distance management, the first of which is as important  as guard and the second of which is more important than guard_."

My questioning of the percentage was a perfunctory response to Ralph's throwing out an exact percentage; it was the rest of the post that held the real emphasis.  Nobody disagreed with me and nobody, including Ralph, responded to it either.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 5, 2012)

I can be a sample size of more than 50 by myself...

I cannot say exactly how many attacks were what, but I will say that yes, the VAST majority (I would say 90% is a reasonable estimate) of the people who have gotten combative in the ER have thrown (or tried to throw) a punch. Most of the rest have simple tried to push their way out. I can think of one that tried to kick, a couple that have grabbed my arm, and one that tried to grab my throat.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 5, 2012)

I think I can safely say that from the responses here so far that the punch to the face is the most common attack you will come accross. So, despite the fact that no ruleset for sparring will ever completely prepare you for self defence, if you were designing a ruleset to "best prepare" someone for what they will most likely encounter in a real altercation you would probably pencil in allowing face punches into the ruleset. That was the point being made in the other thread. I dont care if technically its 97% or 89% etc, the bottom line is that its highly likely that if you have to defend yourself for real this is an attack you will almost certainly come up against.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 5, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My response to Ralph on that subject was this:
> 
> "_No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense.  They all  develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical  areas.
> 
> _.



True enough, but this is far and awya the most common critical area.  If we accept the 78% rule  it is more than twice as likely than all other areas combined.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> My OPINION is that it is the right hand punch to the head. The basis for this opinion had it's genesis after reading Peyton Quinn's Bouncer's guide to Barrroom Brawling (1990) and "Real Fighting"




I think you should re-read Real Fighting because I don't think you quite understood it the first time around.  Also I notice your opinion is based on books and studies and not personal experience. Have you ever been in a self defense situation, and if so, did your attacker try to punch you in the head as his first move against you?


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## harlan (Aug 5, 2012)

After reading this thread, I realize that I have been wasting my training time; I simply must learn how to defend myself in a bar-room. For those 'real world' attacks.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

Bill is correct above. Most people are right-handed and therefore the majority will be right-handed attacks. The F.B.I. composed a study around 10+ years ago that studied real world edged-weapon attacks on officers & civilians over a ten year period. The predominate attack was a right-handed overhand attack with the edged-weapon held ice-pick style. I can't quote the specific % as I don't have the study in front of me, but from memory it was upper 80% of the time. This is a simple, gross-motor skill attack that is much easier to attempt/accomplish under duress than a more skill specific type of strike. This can translate to empty-hand attacks as well i.e. more people are still right-handed, most people aren't really trained and the good ole fashioned haymaker/sucker punch doesn't require specific skill to throw (connecting with it may be a different story). 

Another way to look at it is that _IF_ someone attacks in a fashion other than a right-handed haymaker/sucker punch, then they have _probably_ trained in 'something'. If they go for a grab and/or throw then perhaps they've had high school or college wrestling or some sort of MMA. It is far easier to punch someone (or at least make the attempt as far as a gross-motor skill haymaker/sucker punch) than it is to grab, tackle or throw someone.


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## seasoned (Aug 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Bill is correct above. Most people are right-handed and therefore the majority will be right-handed attacks. The F.B.I. composed a study around 10+ years ago that studied real world edged-weapon attacks on officers & civilians over a ten year period. The predominate attack was a right-handed overhand attack with the edged-weapon held ice-pick style. I can't quote the specific % as I don't have the study in front of me, but from memory it was upper 80% of the time. This is a simple, gross-motor skill attack that is much easier to attempt/accomplish under duress than a more skill specific type of strike. This can translate to empty-hand attacks as well i.e. more people are still right-handed, most people aren't really trained and the good ole fashioned haymaker/sucker punch doesn't require specific skill to throw (connecting with it may be a different story).
> 
> Another way to look at it is that _IF_ someone attacks in a fashion other than a right-handed haymaker/sucker punch, then they have _probably_ trained in 'something'. If they go for a grab and/or throw then perhaps they've had high school or college wrestling or some sort of MMA. It is far easier to punch someone (or at least make the attempt as far as a gross-motor skill haymaker/sucker punch) than it is to grab, tackle or throw someone.


Good points, I also find that after the haymaker comes the grab for lack of something else other then another punch.


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## Gorilla (Aug 5, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think I can safely say that from the responses here so far that the punch to the face is the most common attack you will come accross. So, despite the fact that no ruleset for sparring will ever completely prepare you for self defence, if you were designing a ruleset to "best prepare" someone for what they will most likely encounter in a real altercation you would probably pencil in allowing face punches into the ruleset. That was the point being made in the other thread. I dont care if technically its 97% or 89% etc, the bottom line is that its highly likely that if you have to defend yourself for real this is an attack you will almost certainly come up against.





Ralph this is were you go in the wrong direction WTF sparing was not set up to imulate  a Self Defense situation it is by and large a kicking sport with some punching.

It has self defense applications but it's is a sport not a complete SD system.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 5, 2012)

I think that a lot depends on what you do when the punch comes.  Slip the punch, he winds up and throws another.  Block the punch with a hard block, the impact tells his nervous system to toss the other hand immediately.  Redirect the punch, he is momentarily confused as his nervous system is not providing clear feedback on what just happened.

What I think matters most is not the avoidance of the first punch, but what you do once the punch is thrown at you.  And that, of course, is what martial arts training is all about.  There are a universe of options, many of them equally appropriate (or inappropriate) for the given situation.

So while I agree that if a person was simply good at blocking a thrown right hand punch to the head they'd be able to deal with the vast majority of attacks they might encounter, that's just the opening gambit.  He throws, you block, NOW WHAT?


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think you should re-read Real Fighting because I don't think you quite understood it the first time around.  Also I notice your opinion is based on books and studies and not personal experience. Have you ever been in a self defense situation, and if so, did your attacker try to punch you in the head as his first move against you?



Well, I think i understood it. While at RMCAR I spoke to Peyton Quinn about it at length. 

In the very few real world encounters I have personaly had, the other person never got the opportunity to punch me.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, I think i understood it. While at RMCAR I spoke to Peyton Quinn about it at length.




In my opinion, Peyton's RMCAT program is one big modified series of hogu drills and one big endorsement for the full contact training against a live opponent methodology that is the centerpiece of the modern competition training methods. 

He also speaks about the first moves in a physical encounter, of which the face punch is a second or third move. He says face punch generally is not the first move, except in blind side attacks, which you specifically excluded in your first post creating this thread. Instead he speaks of finger poking to the chest and/or shoving as the first move from an aggressor in his book.


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## seasoned (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> In my opinion, Peyton's RMCAT program is one big modified series of hogu drills and one big endorsement for the full contact training against a live opponent methodology that is the centerpiece of the modern competition training methods.
> 
> He also speaks about the first moves in a physical encounter, of which the face punch is a second or third move. He says face punch generally is not the first move, except in blind side attacks, which you specifically excluded in your first post creating this thread. Instead he speaks of finger poking to the chest and/or shoving as the first move from an aggressor in his book.



I see the finger poke to the chest or shove as a gauge for their next shot that is coming. It is all about distancing in and out of the dojo.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

harlan said:


> After reading this thread, I realize that I have been wasting my training time; I simply must learn how to defend myself in a bar-room. For those 'real world' attacks.



And given the fact that the overwhelming majority of taekwondo students today in the US are children who won't be defending themselves in a bar room situation, or even in a school yard situation due to zero violence policies, the whole argument about the dire and essential need for "self defense" training in taekwondo schools is, well, a waste of time. If people think that taekwondo does not teach self defense, then they should go join another (tiny) hard core tiny self defense school. Obviously, the literally millions who train in kukki taekwondo dojang, are getting something out of the experience, something they consider more important than "self defense".


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I see the finger poke to the chest or shove as a gauge for their next shot that is coming. It is all about distancing in and out of the dojo.



Correct. These would fall under pre-fight precursors just as would non-verbal cues such as the clenching of the fists, increased heavy breathing. rapid eye movements etc. They are not the attack in-and-of-themselves.



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> And given the fact that the overwhelming majority of taekwondo students today in the US are children who won't be defending themselves in a bar room situation, or even in a school yard situation due to zero violence policies, the whole argument about the dire and essential need for "self defense" training in taekwondo schools is, well, a waste of time.



Where has this _argument_ about the _dire_ need for SD for _children_ taken place? Those that do teach SD for children know that it is very different from SD for adults. This would include elements to deal with bullies, abduction prevention, verbal code words used with a parent or guardian etc. And this sort of training is *never* a waste of time. It can be effectively, and is effectively put into any type of martial arts program. Those instructors that don't teach this should learn it for the benefit of their students (particularly children). To suggest that age-appropriate SD is a waste of time in a martial arts setting (or other learning environment) is silly



> If people think that taekwondo does not teach self defense, then they should go join another (tiny) hard core tiny self defense school.



Do you think you put 'tiny' enough times in your sentence? The size of a school (or organization) is not necessarily a measure of its quality.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Correct. These would fall under pre-fight precursors just as would non-verbal cues such as the clenching of the fists, increased heavy breathing. rapid eye movements etc. They are not the attack in-and-of-themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


as has been said before, if. The size of an organisation or business determined its quality then mcdonalds would be a top notch restaurant. You know someone is clutching at straws when they start to make dorogatory remarks towards other organisations based on the number of members they have.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Where has this _argument_ about the _dire_ need for SD for _children_ taken place? Those that do teach SD for children know that it is very different from SD for adults. This would include elements to deal with bullies, abduction prevention, verbal code words used with a parent or guardian etc. And this sort of training is *never* a waste of time. It can be effectively, and is effectively put into any type of martial arts program. Those instructors that don't teach this should learn it for the benefit of their students (particularly children). To suggest that age-appropriate SD is a waste of time in a martial arts setting (or other learning environment) is silly



If you want to offer that, then go for it. Let us know how many students you sign up for your program.





Kong Soo Do said:


> Do you think you put 'tiny' enough times in your sentence? The size of a school (or organization) is not necessarily a measure of its quality.



I put the word tiny in there to emphasize a point, which is people show what they want from their martial arts schools by supporting them with students. And in that regard, the size of the school is a measure of what people want. And what they don't want is some self defense focused school teaching bar room oriented or even LEO oriented stuff to their children.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> If you want to offer that, then go for it. Let us know how many students you sign up for your program.



I do want to offer it as I consider it important.  I've taught over a thousand people these principles that have gone on to teach others the same.  I've taught in various schools as well to different age groups of children.  And as of right now, I don't even accept new students and have had to institude a waiting list.  Thank you for asking.



> And what they don't want is some self defense focused school teaching bar room oriented or even LEO oriented stuff to their children.



Do you even read other people's posts before responding?  Seriously.  I'm pretty sure no one mentioned teaching LEO oriented stuff to children or bar room brawling.  Age-appropriate SD is always in demand and an excellent resource for helping a child defend themselves against bullies or abduction attempts.  This is what has been discussed and offered as far as children are concerned.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> as has been said before, if. The size of an organisation or business determined its quality then mcdonalds would be a top notch restaurant. You know someone is clutching at straws when they start to make dorogatory remarks towards other organisations based on the number of members they have.



I don't know why he does it?  It is a silly and inaccurate premise to stand upon.  Quality is always superior to quantity in regards to martial arts.  Pumping people through any type of program for sheer numbers, or allowing them to join regardless of their qualifications for the sake of numbers may make an organization impressive numbers wise but has nothing to do with quality.  This is a general statement.  Additionally, an organization can be large and have good quality in one area but be completely lacking in another area.  But to put down any organization due solely to the size of the organization is well...silly.


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## seasoned (Aug 5, 2012)

As a by stander, I see you guys poking each other in the chest. I see that over hand right coming, please, prove me wrong...............


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

seasoned said:


> As a by stander, I see you guys poking each other in the chest. I see that over hand right coming, please, prove me wrong...............



I'm sticking strictly with the issue and not the person.  I'll leave the personal stuff to him.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I do want to offer it as I consider it important.  I've taught over a thousand people these principles that have gone on to teach others the same.  I've taught in various schools as well to different age groups of children.  And as of right now, I don't even accept new students and have had to institude a waiting list.  Thank you for asking.



Terrific. And when you do get your school started, no one from kukki taekwondo will criticize you for failing to offer competition poomsae or sparring training to your students. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Do you even read other people's posts before responding?  Seriously.   I'm pretty sure no one mentioned teaching LEO oriented stuff to children  or bar room brawling.  Age-appropriate SD is always in demand and an  excellent resource for helping a child defend themselves against bullies  or abduction attempts.  This is what has been discussed and offered as  far as children are concerned.




How many takers did you get for your children self defense offerings in the past? Make a good living doing that?

Another thing that they don't want is to go easter egg hunting through forms looking for "self defense applications" that the instructor reverse engineered into them. If they did, then the large large large super large large successful successful super successful successful kukki taekwondo schools that dominate the martial arts market would be offering that right now.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

seasoned said:


> As a by stander, I see you guys poking each other in the chest. I see that over hand right coming, please, prove me wrong...............



A small vocal minority, especially non taekwondo, non kukki taekwondo types, like to come here and disparage taekwondo every chance they get. I'm just here to present facts in the face of false accusation.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, I think i understood it. While at RMCAR I spoke to Peyton Quinn about it at length.
> 
> .



I need to retract my prior statement. The initial punch attack is addressed in Bouncer's Guide (Page 26 is one example) Real fighting highlights the grab then punch to the head .( Page 40 is one example.) My memory kind of ran the two things together.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> In my opinion, Peyton's RMCAT program is one big modified series of hogu drills and one big endorsement for the full contact training against a live opponent methodology that is the centerpiece of the modern competition training methods.
> 
> .



While I do not like the idea of sparring with the Hogu, I do like the idea of utilizing it for full contact.  However to analogize it to RMCAT as "Modified" is a severe understatement. 2 big difference.  1. Is their intimidation strategy. 2. The contact is allowed almost anywhere, including the head, with almost any technique which is a much broader spectrum than hogu drills.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> While I do not like the idea of sparring with the Hogu, I do like the idea of utilizing it for full contact.  However to analogize it to RMCAT as "Modified" is a severe understatement. 2 big difference.  1. Is their intimidation strategy. 2. The contact is allowed almost anywhere, including the head, with almost any technique which is a much broader spectrum than hogu drills.



Try reading the books again. Peyton's focus in on full contact training, and the idea of continuous striking, which he feels traditional martial arts lack. Hogu drills are full contact as well as continuous and if you want to talk about intimidation, then show up at nationals and draw steven lopez in your first fight. Or just try and show up at nationals period. Again, the reason why you don't understand these things is because you do not understand the modern competition training methods found in kukki taekwondo and frankly, I don't think that you want to understand.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> Terrific. And when you do get your school started..



This is why I question whether or not you truly read others posts with a heart for understanding and even learning from them.  If I can't accept any new students and have had to adopt a waiting list...I already have a school going.  And have had for decades.



> ...no one from kukki taekwondo will criticize you for failing to offer competition poomsae or sparring training to your students.



They don't.  But I do get them sent to me for SD training.  This isn't a slight against KKW TKD, I just offer something they don't receive in that format.


> Make a good living doing that?



Do you consider this as a requisite for success?  I teach for free as I have a career, which you already knew.



> Another thing that they don't want is to go easter egg hunting through forms looking for "self defense applications" that the instructor reverse engineered into them. If they did, then the large large large super large large successful successful super successful successful kukki taekwondo schools that dominate the martial arts market would be offering that right now.



You weren't clear, how large? :ultracool

And actually, the adults do seek me out and that is one of the reasons.  You simply can't claim to speak for everyone.  And children, as has been discussed already have different needs.  KKW TKD has a great following in sport applications, and that is great.  They don't need SD applications from the forms as it wouldn't be useful in KKW competition.  But the applications are there for those that wish to learn them.  That's where 'we' come in and why we are sought out.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> A small vocal minority, especially non taekwondo, non kukki taekwondo types, like to come here and disparage taekwondo every chance they get. I'm just here to present facts in the face of false accusation.



Who are these people?   And how have they disparaged TKD?


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is why I question whether or not you truly read others posts with a heart for understanding and even learning from them.  If I can't accept any new students and have had to adopt a waiting list...I already have a school going.  And have had for decades.



How many students do you have? And where do you teach? I think you said you work out out of your garage, but not sure if that is the same place where you have your school.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 5, 2012)

You guys need a sandbox somewhere to throw the contents of your diapers at each other.  For God's sake, grow up some.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> How many students do you have?



What does that have to do with this thread?



> And where do you teach?



What does that have to do with this thread?



> I think you said you work out out of your garage, but not sure if that is the same place where you have your school.



No sir, I said I workout in my garage.  I have built a gym (as in benches, power rack, T-bar, weight racks etc) in my garage where I workout in preparation for an upcoming bodybuilding competition.  I do not teach martial arts out of my garage, there's no room!

Back on topic;

Loren Christenson (sp?) has written (or compiled) two good books called the 'Fighters Fact Book' and the 'Fighters Fact Book 2'.  Each have very good chapters by various martial artists from different disciplines that touch on real world altercations.  Both from a professional i.e. L.E., bouncer etc and civilian standpoint.


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> What does that have to do with this thread?



You brought up the fact that you teach for decades and that you have a waiting list for students to join. Just following up on that. Should we start a new topic so that your answer doesn't distract from this thread?


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## jks9199 (Aug 5, 2012)

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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 5, 2012)

I wanted to touch base again on the Fighter's Fact Book 2.  The first one iirc was entirely Loren Christensen.  The second had the following authors that contributed;  Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, Iain Abernethy, Rory Miller, Lawrence Kane, Kris Wilder, Alain Burrese, Richard Dimitri, Mark Mireless and Dan Anderson.  

I found this to be a very interesting read and touches in many places on the topic of the thread and some of the follow-up comments on what happens after the initial attack.  Everything from in-fighting to kicking to improvised weapons to fighting when wounded etc.  May be of interest.


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## Marcy Shoberg (Aug 5, 2012)

I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and other people on this thread need to realize that the angry words and gestures that often preceed punches are the real beginning of most fights. 

Whatever it is you think I need to realize, tell me nicely or I am likely to not listen.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2012)

puunui said:


> If you want to offer that, then go for it. Let us know how many students you sign up for your program.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gracie schools are thriving and their bullying program for kids is popular.  Your success or lack of isn't necessarily an indication that the idea is without merit.  It just means it didn't work for you.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## puunui (Aug 5, 2012)

made new thread.


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## seasoned (Aug 5, 2012)

Marcy Shoberg said:


> I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and other people on this thread need to realize that the angry words and gestures that often preceed punches are the real beginning of most fights.
> 
> Whatever it is you think I need to realize, tell me nicely or I am likely to not listen.


Good point. People that get involved in this angry words and gestures are not defending themselves but participating in a dead end road. It only takes a few of the right words to defuse a situation.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 5, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Good point. People that get involved in this angry words and gestures are not defending themselves but participating in a dead end road. It only takes a few of the right words to defuse a situation.


The funny thing is that its the same person every time. He stopped coming here for a couple of months and all was fine, he comes back and the warnings start again. Personally I enjoy having them here, it ads some comedy to the site, and its all harmless.


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## seasoned (Aug 5, 2012)

Marcy Shoberg said:


> I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and other people on this thread need to realize that the angry words and gestures that often preceed punches are the real beginning of most fights.
> 
> Whatever it is you think I need to realize, tell me nicely or I am likely to not listen.





seasoned said:


> Good point. People that get involved in this angry words and gestures are not defending themselves but participating in a dead end road. It only takes a few of the right words to defuse a situation.





ralphmcpherson said:


> The funny thing is that its the same person every time. He stopped coming here for a couple of months and all was fine, he comes back and the warnings start again. Personally I enjoy having them here, it ads some comedy to the site, and its all harmless.


I think most of what Marcy was saying, pertained to street confrontation, along with my comment.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> Try reading the books again. Peyton's focus in on full contact training, and the idea of continuous striking, which he feels traditional martial arts lack. Hogu drills are full contact as well as continuous and if you want to talk about intimidation, then show up at nationals and draw steven lopez in your first fight.



The RMCAt intimidation strategy was the verbal bashing you are likely to encounter in the street.  I think that is much more probable then encountering Mr. Lopez.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> Again, the reason why you don't understand these things is because you do not understand the modern competition training methods found in kukki taekwondo and frankly, I don't think that you want to understand.



I think you are correct. I believe in the saying that goes "How you train is how you act / react."  I understand that. 
This applies not just to sparring. Was at a weapons defense course taught by a retired Military guy. Told us how soldiers had to pick up brass on the range. Then some got killed in Combat picking up Brass. 

During weapons disarms he told us not to hand the weapon back to the attacker for the next practice. Instead we laid it on the floor and they picked it up. Apparently there were instances of people disarming an attacker and handing the weapon back and the fight continued. My Ju Jitsu Instructor told us of restraining a guy in a bar while he was bouncing. The guy he was restraining was a Ju Jtsu guy as well and tapped. He let him go, and the fight continued.


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2012)

Folks,

One warning was already posted.  I'm sure everyone saw it.  Please, stop the veiled shots at people.  You've all been here long enough to know the rules and about that wonderful ignore feature.  Lets return to the topic please.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I believe in the saying that goes "How you train is how you act / react."  I understand that.



There is another, often taught statement that mirrors that statement, "We don't rise to the occasion, we sink to the level of our training".  There has been a plethora of data from multiple decades of real world altercations (armed and unarmed) that support this perspective.  The results can be success or tragedy depending upon the type of training one has receive and the situation they find themselves faced with.  

As an illustration; decades ago in what in now referred to as the Newhall Massacre, officers were found shot to death with empty revolvers, full ammo pouches and spent brass in their pockets.  What happened is that while in a fire-fight they shot their revolvers dry and instead of immediately reloading and getting back into the fight, they stopped to collect the spent brass and put it in their pockets.  The badguys, wondering why the officers had stopped shooting changed location and gunned down the officers.  These officers weren't dumb and were actually very proficient with their sidearm.  But tracing it back to training, they had an anal-retentive range officer who wanted a tidy range.  So after every string of six rounds the trainees cleaned up the spent brass, placed it in their pockets, reloaded and then went back to shooting.  Now after doing that hundreds, perhaps thousands of times it was ingrained in them.  When the time came, and while under critical duress, they reverted to their training.  This time with tragic consequences.  

Another officer disarmed a badguy of his gun during a store robbery.  The disarm was beautiful and worthy of any martial arts class....and then he gave the gun back to the badguy!  Fortunately the officer's partner rounded the corner and shot the badguy before he could shoot the officers.  Again, the officer wasn't stupid and obviously had great skill in disarms as he did it to a real badguy in a real robbery.  But tracing back to training one officer played the good guy and one officer played the bad guy.  The good guy would disarm the bad guy of the gun and then hand it back to him so he could do it again...and again...and again for practice.  So under critical stress the officer reverted to his training.

From these lessons learned (the hard way), we altered our training methodology.

This can be applied to the martial arts.  This is in NO WAY a shot at any art, don't take it as such please.  Not all arts are meant for SD.  Many have sole or strong sport elements such as Judo, BJJ and TKD.  And they do great in sport venues.  The point needs to be made however, that any art needs to take a very close look at its teaching methodology to make sure it is applicable for its purpose.  You don't teach a TKD sport competitor SD methodology because it can't be used in the venue in which he/she competes.  And the reverse is just as true.  Under duress, you can experience a variety of things such as auditory exclusion (you can't hear the gun going off, the car coming at you, someone shouting), tunnel vision (you're focused on the threat to the exclusion of other threats, or help around you), loss of manual dexterity in the extremities (you revert to gross motor skills and refined motor skills become difficult if not impossible to attempt/complete), dramatically elevated blood pressure/pulse, memory loss etc.  Real things that happen to real people under duress.  To simplify, you go on auto-pilot to a lesser or greater extent.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

Had to cut my above post short as my battery was about to die.  I switched PC's 

To continue, this is why the vast majority of attacks are as discussed above; right-handed haymakers.  The attacker(s) are likely to be under duress as well, predominately from adrenaline dump.  Most people aren't 'trained fighters' so they go with the easiest of gross motor skill attacks and they use their right-hand to initiate it as most are right-handed in the world.  This is why I stated previously that if someone initiates a different mode of attack, they may well be trained in 'something'.  It would be worth noting if you have the opportunity as to what type of attack is forthcoming.  This may well be information you need to know, again if you have the luxury of time.

Is the guy balling up his fists and advancing on you?  Is he in a deep 'horse stance'?  Are his hands open and his body bladed to you?  Is he bouncing around and light on his feet as if he intends to use a kick?  Valuable information, if of course you have the luxury of time to note and evaluate it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > _No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense.  They all   develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical   areas_
> ...


The original exchange was with regards as to whether or not KKW taekwondoin are prepared to deal with punches to the face, which could be a thread all its own.  The questioning of the figure was due to the fact that he threw out a solid figure rather than saying 'the vast majority' and followed it up with 'why is WTF sparring taught as self defense' when it is not.  Those who compete in it don't think that it is either.  And it isn't.  Any more than boxing or judo is.  Which prompts the question; do you and others who bemoan the lack of punching in WTF sparring go to the BJJ, judo and jujutsu sections make the same arguments?

As for preparedness against a punch to the face, defense and countering against a physical technique is the tail end of the process.  If you (the general you, not you specifically) are finding yourself on the receiving end of a punch to the face, your defense has already failed.  Even if you deflect the punch and win the physical confrontation, you have already been defeated every area leading up to that point.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think I can safely say that from the responses here so far that the punch to the face is the most common attack you will come accross.


Most common opening attack in an unarmed altercation outside of schoolyard fighting.  This is different from saying that it is the most common attack that you will come across; that will vary depending on location, environment, and lifestyle.  

In any case, nobody argued to the contrary; simply that it isn't as all encompassing as a 99% figure, and is probably closer to 50% based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people.  Seat of the pants estimate would 

To be honest, it ranks almost at the bottom of my list in terms concerns about self defense; I am skilled in avoiding the circumstances that will put me into a position to worry about being punched in the nose.  Yes, I'm trained to respond to it.  And yes, that training has been tested.  And yes, I still train against punches to the face.  Not because I am concerned about, however, but because the training is enjoyable and it is how I was taught.

Top of my list as far as SD concerns are the type of encounters that are more of a challenge to prepare for because the lead up to them is outside of the experience of most people.

In any case, it has been explained to you and others many times and by many people that SD is generally a separate part of the curriculum from that of WTF sparring.  None of you want to hear it.  You just keep repeating the same tired arguments over and over again.  But you expect us to kindly and openly evaluate your descriptions of what you do.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> So, despite the fact that no ruleset for sparring will ever completely prepare you for self defence, if you were designing a ruleset to "best prepare" someone for what they will most likely encounter in a real altercation you would probably pencil in allowing face punches into the ruleset.


Except that nobody is designing rule sets for that purpose.  If they were, wrestling wouldn't exist and boxing would look more like MMA.  Even MMA isn't designed to emulate real world altercations, though it is the most comprehensive of competitive rule sets that I am aware of, though it is probably the closest in terms of rule sets, but it would be pretty boring if MMA were the only fight sport available; I like the variety of martial sport.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> That was the point being made in the other thread. I dont care if technically its 97% or 89% etc, the bottom line is that its highly likely that if you have to defend yourself for real this is an attack you will almost certainly come up against.


So do you go to the judo forums and make these same arguments?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Had to cut my above post short as my battery was about to die.



Hate it when that happens.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So do you go to the judo forums and make these same arguments?



Kano developed Judo as a sport. It is trained by Players as a sport. This is not to say that plenty of Judo Guys would be 10 miles of bad road in a fight.  Rhond R now doing well in MMA having transitioned their training. 

Some of my Ju Jitsu instructors and friends flat out tell us that the street is not the place for grappling. Stick with the striking. They also train for the strike. 

Some of you are very up front about WTF style sparring not being the optimal answer for the street.  I can't help but wonder how many WTF style instructors truly reinforce this with the students.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most common opening attack in an unarmed altercation outside of schoolyard fighting. This is different from saying that it is the most common attack that you will come across; that will vary depending on location, environment, and lifestyle.
> 
> In any case, nobody argued to the contrary; simply that it isn't as all encompassing as a 99% figure, and is probably closer to 50% based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people. Seat of the pants estimate would



Part of the reason for this thread was to get feedback aabout numbers and percentages about attacks. The BB Mag had some interesting statistics. Of course it would be better if 10,000 fights were summarized. 

In that articel 50 fights were observed and 78% started with punches (39) and 10% with grabs. (5). 

I submit that the punching factor is much more significant from those numbers than a basic reading shows.  #1. The grab is not a debilitating attack. #2 What immediately followed the grab is not stated. 

If you look at initial physical actions that had the potential to debilitate the recipient then its 39 of 45 or 86%.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > So do you go to the judo forums and make these same arguments?
> ...


WTF shihap kyorugi was developed as a sport.  It is trained by players as a sport.  It was developed this way with an eye towards Olympic inclusion.  So if you don't do it on the judo forums, then why do you do it here?



Earl Weiss said:


> Some of my Ju Jitsu instructors and friends flat out tell us that the street is not the place for grappling. Stick with the striking. They also train for the strike.


So, do you go the jujutsu forms and make these same arguments?  



Earl Weiss said:


> Some of you are very up front about WTF style sparring not being the optimal answer for the street.  I can't help but wonder how many WTF style instructors truly reinforce this with the students.


So far as I have seen, they do.  I cannot speak for all schools, but I have visited many over the past thirty years and I have yet to see any that treat tournament fighting as self defense, separating SD as a separate part of the curriculum.  Also, universally, every MA school that I have trained at exhort the students not to get into fights and to settle things peacefully.  

Secondly, why do you wonder?  I don't wonder if judo guys think that competitive judo is SD.  I don't wonder if BJJ guys think BJJ is SD.  I don't wonder if ATA schools teach that their sparring is SD.  The only thing that I wonder is why non KKW/WTF people even care.  

I don't care if MMA, BJJ, HKD, TSD, KSD, IKA, ITF, boxing, wrestling, sumo, judo, bondo or condo people think their sparring is realistic or not.  If they like what they do, then good for them.  Presumably, people in these arts or organizations are aware of the purposes and the norms of their art.  I'm happy to let them figure out if the sparring rules are to their liking.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > Most common opening attack in an unarmed altercation outside of  schoolyard fighting. This is different from saying that it is the most  common attack that you will come across; that will vary depending on  location, environment, and lifestyle.
> ...



Wow!  That is embarrassing: I left my sentence unfinished!  "_My seat of the pants estimate would..._" put shoves on even par or even higher than that of punches, though I do agree with you that a shove or a grab is not itself generally debilitating.  However, now you're changing the nature of the statement.  Before it was most common first attack.  Now you are saying most common debilitating first attack.  Which is fine; if that is what you meant in the first place, then I might be inclined to put the number over 78%.


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## miguksaram (Aug 6, 2012)

Marcy Shoberg said:


> I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" .....


I love that book.  Works well in stopping the right handed hay maker punch.


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## miguksaram (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> During weapons disarms he told us not to hand the weapon back to the attacker for the next practice. Instead we laid it on the floor and they picked it up. Apparently there were instances of people disarming an attacker and handing the weapon back and the fight continued.


We were told something similar by one of our instructors who works with FBI and LEO.  He told us of an incident where a cop did disarm an assailant from his gun and as a reflex gave the gun back.  The assialant shot him. This type of mentality is why we also teach our kids that when they do an escape they are to run away instead of just standing there.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think you are correct. I believe in the saying that goes "How you train is how you act / react."  I understand that.
> This applies not just to sparring. Was at a weapons defense course taught by a retired Military guy. Told us how soldiers had to pick up brass on the range. Then some got killed in Combat picking up Brass.
> 
> During weapons disarms he told us not to hand the weapon back to the attacker for the next practice. Instead we laid it on the floor and they picked it up. Apparently there were instances of people disarming an attacker and handing the weapon back and the fight continued. My Ju Jitsu Instructor told us of restraining a guy in a bar while he was bouncing. The guy he was restraining was a Ju Jtsu guy as well and tapped. He let him go, and the fight continued.



So laying your weapon on the floor so that your attacker can pick it up and use it against you is preferable to handing the weapon back to your attacker so he can use it against you?


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> As an illustration; decades ago in what in now referred to as the Newhall Massacre, officers were found shot to death with empty revolvers, full ammo pouches and spent brass in their pockets.  What happened is that while in a fire-fight they shot their revolvers dry and instead of immediately reloading and getting back into the fight, they stopped to collect the spent brass and put it in their pockets.  The badguys, wondering why the officers had stopped shooting changed location and gunned down the officers.  These officers weren't dumb and were actually very proficient with their sidearm.  But tracing it back to training, they had an anal-retentive range officer who wanted a tidy range.  So after every string of six rounds the trainees cleaned up the spent brass, placed it in their pockets, reloaded and then went back to shooting.  Now after doing that hundreds, perhaps thousands of times it was ingrained in them.  When the time came, and while under critical duress, they reverted to their training.  This time with tragic consequences.
> 
> Another officer disarmed a badguy of his gun during a store robbery.  The disarm was beautiful and worthy of any martial arts class....and then he gave the gun back to the badguy!  Fortunately the officer's partner rounded the corner and shot the badguy before he could shoot the officers.  Again, the officer wasn't stupid and obviously had great skill in disarms as he did it to a real badguy in a real robbery.  But tracing back to training one officer played the good guy and one officer played the bad guy.  The good guy would disarm the bad guy of the gun and then hand it back to him so he could do it again...and again...and again for practice.  So under critical stress the officer reverted to his training.
> 
> ...



So you are using a LEO example and the LEO training failure in a self defense situation to argue that "not all arts are meant for SD", that many "have sole or strong sport elements such as Judo, BJJ and TKD" and "they do great in sport venues"? If anything, your example goes to the ineffectiveness of "self defense" training even for LEOs, and has nothing to do with "sport".


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for preparedness against a punch to the face, defense and countering against a physical technique is the tail end of the process.  If you (the general you, not you specifically) are finding yourself on the receiving end of a punch to the face, your defense has already failed.  Even if you deflect the punch and win the physical confrontation, you have already been defeated every area leading up to that point.




Also the discussion is about the first attack, which Peyton Quinn says is a poke to the chest, or push, which is then followed by a right hand punch. I think there is some miscommunication going on here and everyone is focusing on the right hand punch and not the things that precede it, which is by the way, the actual topic of discussion.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In any case, it has been explained to you and others many times and by many people that SD is generally a separate part of the curriculum from that of WTF sparring.  None of you want to hear it.  You just keep repeating the same tired arguments over and over again.  But you expect us to kindly and openly evaluate your descriptions of what you do.



good point.


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## d1jinx (Aug 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> In any case, it has been explained to you and others many times and by many people that SD is generally a separate part of the curriculum from that of WTF sparring. None of you want to hear it. You just keep repeating the same tired arguments over and over again. But you expect us to kindly and openly evaluate your descriptions of what you do.





puunui said:


> good point.




This is exactly why I stopped posting here on MT. There are those who only wish to point out how everyone else is the wrong way, and they are the only true light.

well, i say, let them believe what they want. continue to believe what they believe, and let them have their Internet Dojo.

I shall leave this place for the trolls and talk to you guys and gals in the troll free zone.

I also noticed that many of the other good quality posters have stopped posting as well.

this used to have a lot of help and information.... now its a waste of time.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> WTF shihap kyorugi was developed as a sport.  It is trained by players as a sport.  It was developed this way with an eye towards Olympic inclusion.



And the skills and attitudes (continuous full contact striking) developed through such training is easily adapted to a self defense situation, that peyton quinn says this is the essential element lacking in so called traditional self defense training, which involves teaching movements through solo forms, working on antiquated "secret hidden moves" with little or no contact against a willing cooperative partner, and teaching students to walk away from a confrontation at all costs.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> This is exactly why I stopped posting here on MT. There are those who only wish to point out how everyone else is the wrong way, and they are the only true light.
> 
> well, i say, let them believe what they want. continue to believe what they believe, and let them have there Internet Dojo.
> 
> ...



Good point.


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## miguksaram (Aug 6, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> This is exactly why I stopped posting here on MT. There are those who only wish to point out how everyone else is the wrong way, and they are the only true light.
> 
> well, i say, let them believe what they want. continue to believe what they believe, and let them have their Internet Dojo.


And once again we have hit dejapoopoo with yet another thread.


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## d1jinx (Aug 6, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The funny thing is that its the same person every time. He stopped coming here for a couple of months and all was fine, he comes back and the warnings start again. Personally I enjoy having them here, it ads some comedy to the site, and its all harmless.



some have chosen to stop coming here.  and NOT because of whom you speak of.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> And the skills and attitudes (continuous full contact striking) developed through such training is easily adapted to a self defense situation, that peyton quinn says this is the essential element lacking in so called traditional self defense training, which involves teaching movements through solo forms, working on antiquated "secret hidden moves" with little or no contact against a willing cooperative partner, and teaching students to walk away from a confrontation at all costs.



Our of interest, everyone seems to be talking about this Peyton Quinn chap (who I'd never heard of until last time his name was brought up on this board).  Has anyone actually asked him about WTF Taekwondo Sparring and whether he feels the lessons match up with his beliefs of best practices?

Can anyone recommend his "best" book for someone who's never heard of him so I can get started?


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> So you are using a LEO example and the LEO training failure in a self defense situation to argue that "not all arts are meant for SD", that many "have sole or strong sport elements such as Judo, BJJ and TKD" and "they do great in sport venues"? If anything, your example goes to the ineffectiveness of "self defense" training even for LEOs, and has nothing to do with "sport".



No sir, you've missed the point.  Arts that were designed specifically for sport, or have a strong sport element, were designed for an artificial environment.  This isn't a snipe, I'm presenting fact.  As an example, these sports or sport elements conduct their training/competition in a venue where there is one opponent.  The opponent is not armed.  The opponent has agreed to the same rules as you.  You may have a time out or time in between rounds.  The venue is well lit, flat, dry and depending on the sport, it may be padded or the participants may wear protective clothing/equipment.  Thus training for this venue differs as there are not as many possible variables that exist in which to confront a participant.

Now take this to a real world SD altercation.  None of the above may or will apply regardless of L.E.O. or private citizen.  The training will differ.  And because it differs, training for sport may actually be a detriment in a real altercation since we react under stress and revert to our training.  Again, this isn't a snipe at sport training, rather it is illustrating the difference.  The examples I (and others) cited above happened decades ago and SD training has advance exponentially as a result.  

As an example, BJJ has a lot of ground work.  A lot of it is great, and a lot of it only has sport applications and do not translate well over to SD.  This is why Royce Gracie had to change many elements of BJJ for the use of officers.  Taking someone down and putting them in a triangle, komora or cross-body mount is great for the ring but can be a very bad choice in the street due to a plethora of circumstances.  TKD if trained as far as many kicks/little handwork can also be great in a specific venue but a really bad choice in a real altercation.  Again...NO snipe, just looking at it realistically.  Being a great kicker in competition is great.  But lets look at this honestly, the kicker is warmed up, in loose fitting clothing, on a flat, dry surface in a well lit area and the opponent is the same.   Translate this to being confronted/attacked between a couple of parked cars, or on a stairwell, or in an elevator or other enclosed area, or a sloping/slick/wet surface and the person is not warmed up/stretched out and in a dress or jeans.  Things become very difficult, very quickly.  

Now, if someone is training solely for sport or exercise or social interaction then there is no real need to worry about it.  As noted more than once, by many posters here, the problem comes up when one methodology claims to be good for another venue.  It is NOT an 'us vs. you' situation.  At least it shouldn't be and isn't on my part.  It is serious dialogue on a serious topic that all of us should thoughtfully consider.  If one trains for SD, or if one trains for sport but would like to put SD elements into the training then they should look seriously at what those in SD teach and why.  Learn from mistakes so they aren't repeated.  It would be silly for me to teach sport without getting a good grasp of what is required in that venue.  Conversely, it would be silly for a sport instructor to teach SD without getting a good grasp of what SD requires.

We should all be here for each other and assist each other if it is within our power to do so.  Many of us are 'masters' and as such, we should conduct ourselves accordingly for the benefit of our students.  If a school is sport-only and the students are fine with that, great.  If on the other hand a sport school wanted to put in some SD and wanted information on goods ways to do so....ask.  I'm here for them to the best of my ability.  I think other SD folks here would feel the same way.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> ..........everyone is focusing on the right hand punch and not the things that precede it, which is by the way, the actual topic of discussion.



Perhaps that is because that is the outline for the thread: From the first post: " I also want to limit it to the first overt physical act. We could spend volumes on the precursers." 
I did not want to get side tracked by the things that precede it.   Not a bad discussion, but I think best done seperately since it would likely consume many "Pages".


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Our of interest, everyone seems to be talking about this Peyton Quinn chap (who I'd never heard of until last time his name was brought up on this board). Has anyone actually asked him about WTF Taekwondo Sparring and whether he feels the lessons match up with his beliefs of best practices?
> 
> Can anyone recommend his "best" book for someone who's never heard of him so I can get started?



I would reccomend both books. They are quick reads.  One of his favorite comments is "I don't teach Martial Arts."


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> > I think you are correct. I believe in the saying that goes "How you train is how you act / react."  I understand that.
> ...


My last KKW instructor ended weapon take away drills by having both participants take a couple of steps back, bow, and then the partners changed rolls, so there was no giving back of the weapon; it changed hands from attacker to defender.  The defender became the attacker and then the weapon went from him to the now-defender during the course of the drill.  Whoever the last defender was would then put the weapon back in its proper place at the conclusion of its usage in drills.

While I understand where Earl's instructor was coming from, where does it end?  As you point out, Puunui, putting it on the ground simply substitutes one bad habit for another that isn't quite as bad.  But what then?  Do you practice cutting your opponent's throat before concluding the drill?  Do you eliminate any dojo etiquette, as that would be non existent in a violent encounter?  Does the sensei walk around like some kind of bad evil MA master and strike anyone who turns around in the back of the head with a shinai while shouting, "Never turn your back on an enemy!!" 

Every training environment will, by necessity, have protocols that one should not observe outside of that environment.  The bouncer letting go of a tapping drunk being a fine example.  Practicing lethal techniques in a way that makes them not lethal, which is a necessity, could potentially cause the technique to fail in a real life scenario.  So you can either not practice them at all, or bring in death row inmates so that you can follow through and determine if you 'killed him right.'  Since that would be illegal and raise serious moral and ethical questions, and since not training them at all defeats the purpose of knowing them, you end up with having to practice them in a way that will not kill your training partner.

We can go on and on.  The studio and the tournament will never have a one to one correlation to real world street violence.  It doesn't matter how common the attack your art is most effective against is; it is always the one you aren't ready for that will get you anyway.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> No sir, you've missed the point.  Arts that were designed specifically for sport, or have a strong sport element, were designed for an artificial environment.  This isn't a snipe, I'm presenting fact.  As an example, these sports or sport elements conduct their training/competition in a venue where there is one opponent.  The opponent is not armed.  The opponent has agreed to the same rules as you.  You may have a time out or time in between rounds.  The venue is well lit, flat, dry and depending on the sport, it may be padded or the participants may wear protective clothing/equipment.  Thus training for this venue differs as there are not as many possible variables that exist in which to confront a participant.



Yeah, but you used an LEO training failure example as the lead in for your point, which to me speaks more to the fact that even "non-sport" self defense training for LEO is not the be all and end all for self defense. The LEO example has nothing to do with sport, unless it involved some sort of shooting contest, which I don't think it did.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> Yeah, but you used an LEO training failure example as the lead in for your point, which to me speaks more to the fact that even "non-sport" self defense training for LEO is not the be all and end all for self defense. The LEO example has nothing to do with sport, unless it involved some sort of shooting contest, which I don't think it did.



The point is valid sir, under duress we revert to our training.  I doesn't matter if the training is with a firearm, a knife, a stick, a punch, a kick, grappling etc.  This is what I'm stressing in regards to the topic of real world attacks.  

And it needs to be stressed that there is no be-all-to-end-all training from any venue.  Some is better than others.  Some has a better statistical effectiveness in altercations.  The better point would include that training, in any form, should always seek to better itself and avoid repeated mistakes.  Surely you'll agree that it is the same with sport training.  As better training comes in, it modifies or replaces that which was before it for a more effective competitor.  This is a good thing.  Good for the student, and good for the art.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The point is valid sir, under duress we revert to our training.  I doesn't matter if the training is with a firearm, a knife, a stick, a punch, a kick, grappling etc.  This is what I'm stressing in regards to the topic of real world attacks.



And when those who are trained using the modern competition training methods, they revert to their training which is continuous full contact blows when in striking distance. The other arts that utilize such training are boxing, judo, kyokushin karate, and BJJ/MMA, all sports, and all very effective for self defense purposes.


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## seasoned (Aug 6, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> This is exactly why I stopped posting here on MT. There are those who only wish to point out how everyone else is the wrong way, and they are the only true light.
> 
> well, i say, let them believe what they want. continue to believe what they believe, and let them have their Internet Dojo.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear this. There are still many people that still come to this site, and for this reason staff here at MT still try to make it a rewarding experience. Comments like your's makes you no better then the ones you condemn.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> And when those who are trained using the modern competition training methods, they revert to their training which is continuous full contact blows when in striking distance. The other arts that utilize such training are boxing, judo, kyokushin karate, and BJJ/MMA, all sports, and all very effective for self defense purposes.



Don't take this as me picking on you Glenn, or picking apart your post.  My intention is purely to point out things that perhaps aren't as effective as one may assume on the surface.  Modern competitive training methods i.e. continuous full contact _can_ have _some_ benefit.  But we need to be very careful here as it also has many things that make it not the best choice in many circumstances.  Let's take a look at full contact, as well as boxing.  In training a competitor/boxer wears protection such as hand tape, gloves and a mouth piece.  What is the reason?  To protect the hands from injury and/or being cut.  Herein lies the issue, you (generic you) won't have these items in a real world attack.  The chance of injuring the hands, particularly when striking the face/head is substantial.  Anyone that has broken a knuckle, sprained a wrist, cracked a metacarpal etc knows that in addition to being painful, it can interfere with otherwise simple tasks i.e. using a cell phone to call for help, utilize car keys to initiate an escape (or to unlock a door), manipulate an improvised or concealed weapon etc.  Damage to the hands may reduce the use of the hand to effect escape, further defend against attack or assist another. Furthermore, if the hand is cut, for example by punching someone in the mouth or other area of the head (which bleeds pretty readily) we now have to be concerned with blood-born pathogens.  This is a real concern, particularly these days with the use of intravenous drugs, poor living conditions etc.  I cannot emphasis this enough!  Therefore boxing or continuous strikes to the head with unprotected hands is not the best of possible options.

I've already touched on BJJ/MMA.  Judo is great.  But does teach the use of heavy clothing for many of the techniques.  Put the person in a T-shirt or no shirt and many techniques go out the window.  This is not to suggest that these sports are useless in a real fight.  However, there are some real considerations that need to be addressed if we're going to get the most out of it from a SD perspective.  And there are much better choices available.


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## seasoned (Aug 6, 2012)

You guy's are throwing out a lot of valuable info that i'm sure is appreciated by many of the non posters. And, you are doing it in a very thought out manor.


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let's take a look at full contact, as well as boxing.  In training a competitor/boxer wears protection such as hand tape, gloves and a mouth piece.  What is the reason?  To protect the hands from injury and/or being cut.  Herein lies the issue, you (generic you) won't have these items in a real world attack.  The chance of injuring the hands, particularly when striking the face/head is substantial.  Anyone that has broken a knuckle, sprained a wrist, cracked a metacarpal etc knows that in addition to being painful, it can interfere with otherwise simple tasks i.e. using a cell phone to call for help, utilize car keys to initiate an escape (or to unlock a door), manipulate an improvised or concealed weapon etc.  Damage to the hands may reduce the use of the hand to effect escape, further defend against attack or assist another. Furthermore, if the hand is cut, for example by punching someone in the mouth or other area of the head (which bleeds pretty readily) we now have to be concerned with blood-born pathogens.  This is a real concern, particularly these days with the use of intravenous drugs, poor living conditions etc.  I cannot emphasis this enough!  Therefore boxing or continuous strikes to the head with unprotected hands is not the best of possible options.



So there is a possibility of hurting your hands if you hit someone in the head with them. Shouldn't you be saying this to all the people who think that face punching can neutralize a taekwondo competitor whose arms are dangling down by their sides as they bounce up and down like a jack hammer? Doesn't that apply to them more so than to a taekwondo competitor who some argue cannot punch?


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> So laying your weapon on the floor so that your attacker can pick it up and use it against you is preferable to handing the weapon back to your attacker so he can use it against you?



Right, then when he  bends down to pick it up you kick the snot out of him


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## puunui (Aug 6, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Right, then when he  bends down to pick it up you kick the snot out of him



How are you going to do that after you turn your back to get to your original place for more practice, which is how you train for these things?


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> So there is a possibility of hurting your hands if you hit someone in the head with them.



Yes sir, it can be a factor.  In addition to an injury that reduces/prevents further defensive action with that hand, blood born pathogens as I mentioned is a serious consideration.  We go through yearly training on this subject (blood borne pathogens) in addition to other training.  In fact, I'm scheduled for early October for my re-certification training.  Better forms of 'active defense' would be open hands, forearms, edge-of-hand, elbows etc preferably to soft target areas such as the side of the head, brachial plexus, solar plexus, joints etc.  Now, nothing works on everyone all the time, and sometimes you have to take what you can get, so take what I'm offering within context please.  

From personal experience, I have had the greatest positive results with elbows, forearms and edge-of-hand strikes (when it has been necessary and appropriate to use a strike or to set up for a lock, escort or throw).


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2012)

seasoned said:


> You guy's are throwing out a lot of valuable info that i'm sure is appreciated by many of the non posters. And, you are doing it in a very thought out manor.



Thank you.  That is my intent.  I'm all for an honest, respectful exchange of ideas and information.  Disagreements will arise, but hopefully we've turned this thread back into a good one.  Glenn has asked some legitimate questions which has allowed me to expound in greater detail.  None of us knows everything, so hopefully this (and other) threads will have something(s) that we can all take away and put in the tool box.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 6, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you.  That is my intent.  I'm all for an honest, respectful exchange of ideas and information.  Disagreements will arise, but hopefully we've turned this thread back into a good one.  Glenn has asked some legitimate questions which has allowed me to expound in greater detail.  None of us knows everything, so hopefully this (and other) threads will have something(s) that we can all take away and put in the tool box.



Well said. I really cant believe some people would cease coming to martial talk because people have opinions that differ to theirs and wont change that opinion simply because someone tells them otherwise. Its as if they expect us to go "oh, to think i was wrong all these years, good thing i came here and was set straight". Both viewpoints are equally valid but they are "opinions".


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> How are you going to do that after you turn your back to get to your original place for more practice, which is how you train for these things?



Don't know who "you"' have been watching.  .


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## Cyriacus (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> So there is a possibility of hurting your hands if you hit someone in the head with them. Shouldn't you be saying this to all the people who think that face punching can neutralize a taekwondo competitor whose arms are dangling down by their sides as they bounce up and down like a jack hammer? Doesn't that apply to them more so than to a taekwondo competitor who some argue cannot punch?


Im just going to drop in quickly here.

Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides. Which leads to, why isnt there much punching in competitive sparring?
That isnt a question i dont have any inkling of the answer to, but discussing it myself would make me a part of the conversation.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > How are you going to do that after you turn your back to get to your  original place for more practice, which is how you train for these  things?
> ...


It isn't who he's been watching, but an extension of the point you were making about carrying training habits into real encounters.  



You spoke of a bouncer who let go of a violent drunk because the drunk tapped.
 

Then you spoke of your instructor who instructed you to put a weapon down after the take away because of guys handing it back to the attacker due to their extending habits from the training environment into real world encounters.
 

Presumably, you don't kick the snot out of your training partner when he picks up the weapon you just laid down, but instead, return to your original position.
 
Regardless of whether or not you turn your back, or perform some other action that one can safely perform in a training environment, you will have habits pertaining to that environment that are not appropriate in a violent encounter.  

Puunui's point, and my own which I made in a separate post, is that there will always be something that you do in the dojo/dojang that "will get you killed" in a real fight.  It is unavoidable.  

Unless you do all of your training by storming crack houses and playing Batman with the drug dealers and junkies, who may or may not be armed (and somehow survive or stay out of jail long enough to derive any value from the training), a training environment will never equate to real life, regardless of how realistic you try to make it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im just going to drop in quickly here.
> 
> Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides. Which leads to, why isnt there much punching in competitive sparring?
> That isnt a question i dont have any inkling of the answer to, but discussing it myself would make me a part of the conversation.


That question has been answered here so many times that it amazes me when people don't know the answer.  Either they ignore the answer because it isn't what they want to hear, or it is buried in so much noise that they never see it.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 7, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That question has been answered here so many times that it amazes me when people don't know the answer.  Either they ignore the answer because it isn't what they want to hear, or it is buried in so much noise that they never see it.


Actually, I just dont read the TKD Board very much  My apologies.
And when I do read it, Ive never seen the question even asked. Perhaps I need to go back a dozen pages or something?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Actually, I just dont read the TKD Board very much  My apologies.
> And when I do read it, Ive never seen the question even asked. Perhaps I need to go back a dozen pages or something?


Probably through different threads.  It was probably answered in the thread that spawned this thread (taekwondo art or sport)

Your profile says that you practice taekwondo.  Do you practice KKW taekwondo or a different federation/system?


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## Cyriacus (Aug 7, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Probably through different threads.  It was probably answered in the thread that spawned this thread (taekwondo art or sport)
> 
> Your profile says that you practice taekwondo.  Do you practice KKW taekwondo or a different federation/system?


Independent. And in the past Ive trained under the ITF.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Independent. And in the past Ive trained under the ITF.


Independent, but was it Chang Hon?  And did they use sparring rules the same or analogous to ITF sparring?


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 7, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> a training environment will never equate to real life, regardless of how realistic you try to make it.



I think a good take-home point would be to adjust the training environment when a better method is developed.  As an example of what I mean, using the example of the officer that gave the gun back to the bad guy.  

Prior training method - one officer is good guy, one officer is bad guy.  Good guy goes through disarm.  Good guy hands gun back to 'bad guy' to do it again and again.  Result wasn't a good one.
Current training method - one officer is good guy, one officer is bad guy.  Good guy goes through disarm.  Good guy, after disarm is complete delivers gross motor skill strike/kick/stomp/knee spike or whatever is appropriate to the situation.  Good guy creates distance as appropriate to the situation.  Good guy taps & racks in the case of a semi-automatic to ensure that firearm is in-battery and charged.  Good guy covers threat with firearm while scanning area for possible additional threats while checking self for injures as appropriate.  Good guy makes any communications via radio as appropriate and/or issues commands to bad guy(s) as appropriate.  Good guy doesn't holster firearm till he/she considers threat is over and situation is contained/controlled.  Result is a much better and more realistic follow-up to a real world disarm.

Now take this example into the Dojang, if the training is for SD.  Using a full contact sparring session.

Possible current method - two practitioners get into stance.  On the command they begin trying to punch or kick each other till a point is scored in the correct area or 'damage' inflicted is considered sufficient to stop the other.
Better method if SD is the consideration - good guy practitioner has the opportunity to avoid the situation and/or has the opportunity to deescalate the situation.  Failing that, good guy has the opportunity to scan his/her surroundings for points of escape and/or additional threats or areas of concern.  Good guy has opportunity to use concealed or improvised weapon(s) (simulated for safety).  Good guy engages and defeats bad guy(s).  Good guy leaves area, if appropriate while checking self for injuries while seeking means of escape and notification of authorities.
Now, not all of the above has to be done each and every time.  Additionally, one could toss in other factors such as being with a loved one and having to work through keeping them safe.  Additional threats such as more bad guys, traffic, user-unfriendly objects or obstacles.  Dim-light.  Non-flat surfaces etc.  Some times the deescalation works, some times it doesn't.  Some times avoidance works, some times it doesn't.  What I'm saying is that if we just teach strike/kick but never touch on other real-world factors the student isn't getting the training needed for other factors/possibilities.  Can we cover each and every possible situation?  No.  Can we cover a bunch of likely situations with some before and after considerations to round out the students range of responses?  Yes.  And it can be fun to do in the Dojang (and out of it) as it presents new stimulus and new challenges to the student.

Many is the time I came in and dimmed the lights or told the students we were going outside in the parking lot or on the grass or some other situation that took the training up a notch towards realism.  Those were the classes students would comment, "that was the best class ever"!

Keep what I'm saying in context.  This is for the SD school.  But it is also for a sport school where the instructor would like to toss in some SD from time to time.  Perhaps even have the ability to offer a 'street-clothes' night where all this SD stuff can be tossed in on top of/with their normal training.  This gives them some exposure to what SD is all about, how they can use what they've learned effectively outside the Dojang, promote confidence, promote awareness of surroundings, provide new skills and considerations etc.  

Just some thoughts to toss out


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## miguksaram (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides. Which leads to, why isnt there much punching in competitive sparring?
> That isnt a question i dont have any inkling of the answer to, but discussing it myself would make me a part of the conversation.


If you can answer the question as to why there is no punching in Judo, or why there is not kicking in Boxing, then you will have your answer as to why there is not punching to the face in WTF sparring.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 7, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Independent, but was it Chang Hon?  And did they use sparring rules the same or analogous to ITF sparring?


Chang Hon, yes. And the Sparring is unscored, but other than that Id say its pretty much the same rules as ITF Sparring. Punches to the Head and Body, Kicks not going below the belt for that particular exercise, and grappling being refrained from. Grabbing is ok in small doses though. Now just add some elbows, and open handed things being encouraged, so long as theyre pulled if thrown at things like the neck. Or wrist.



miguksaram said:


> If you can answer the question as to why there is no punching in Judo, or why there is not kicking in Boxing, then you will have your answer as to why there is not punching to the face in WTF sparring.


To which I could reply that there is Punching in other elements of Their Training, but that Boxers dont learn Kicking outside of Competitive Sparring.


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## miguksaram (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> To which I could reply that there is Punching in other elements of Their Training, but that Boxers dont learn Kicking outside of Competitive Sparring.


And what excuse does Kyokushin have?  I notice no one ever picks on Kyokushin who also does not allow punches to the face.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Chang Hon, yes. And the Sparring is unscored, but other than that Id say its pretty much the same rules as ITF Sparring. Punches to the Head and Body, Kicks not going below the belt for that particular exercise, and grappling being refrained from. Grabbing is ok in small doses though. Now just add some elbows, and open handed things being encouraged, so long as theyre pulled if thrown at things like the neck. Or wrist.


Sounds cool!  Hopefully, this will answer your questions about WTF sparring without derailing this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...t-is-the-way-that-it-is?p=1510126#post1510126



Cyriacus said:


> To which I could reply that there is Punching in other elements of Their Training, but that Boxers dont learn Kicking outside of Competitive Sparring.


To which I would reply that judo doesn't allow its full range of techniques either, and since the primary reason for the criticism of WTF sparring is a perceived disconnect with real world SD, the fact that boxer or judoka don't train in kicks or general strikes respectively shouldn't matter, and should open those rule sets up to the same criticisms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> And what excuse does Kyokushin have?  I notice no one ever picks on Kyokushin who also does not allow punches to the face.


No matter how many times I mention this, nobody pays any attention to it.  Same for judo, BJJ, jujutsu, etc.  Given that the main complaint of WTF detractors is that the sparring style is bad for SD, the fact that those other arts don't train in punching at all, which these detractors feel is so vital, should make them prime targets for the kind of criticism of the WTF that goes on here.  

Of course, that would be seen as art bashing and those entrenched in those sections would quickly marginalize people who choose to do that, and likely _with mod assistance_.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 7, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> And what excuse does Kyokushin have?  I notice no one ever picks on Kyokushin who also does not allow punches to the face.


...I never questioned the punches to the face. Thats fine. But Kyokushin regularly uses Punches. Punches that are allowed, to the body, in WTF TKD.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sounds cool! Hopefully, this will answer your questions about WTF sparring without derailing this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...t-is-the-way-that-it-is?p=1510126#post1510126
> 
> 
> To which I would reply that judo doesn't allow its full range of techniques either, and since the primary reason for the criticism of WTF sparring is a perceived disconnect with real world SD, the fact that boxer or judoka don't train in kicks or general strikes respectively shouldn't matter, and should open those rule sets up to the same criticisms.


Im cool with that. All I questioned was, in relation to Puunuis comment, why straight punches to the body arent used often is all. And I added that if They were, Theyd probably keep Their arms a bit more bent up. And Theyre a part of KKW TKD Training. Id actually prefer it if They just werent allowed in Competitive Sparring, just so that I wouldnt need to question why Theyre not used often 

*goes to read the new thread


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> ...I never questioned the punches to the face. Thats fine. But Kyokushin regularly uses Punches. Punches that are allowed, to the body, in WTF TKD.
> 
> 
> Im cool with that. All I questioned was, in relation to Puunuis comment, why straight punches to the body arent used often is all. And I added that if They were, Theyd probably keep Their arms a bit more bent up. And Theyre a part of KKW TKD Training. Id actually prefer it if They just werent allowed in Competitive Sparring, just so that I wouldnt need to question why Theyre not used often
> ...


Hopefully new thread will answer that for you.


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## dancingalone (Aug 7, 2012)

Regarding the Olympic rules sparring thing...from my observation, it's not necessarily the rule set used even most of the time in KKW curriculum schools.  In my dojang, we spar the majority of the time like I imagine most other TKD/karate schools do:  timed rounds with stand up striking - hand attacks are equally 'rewarding' as kicks, since there is no referee scoring.  And this was true even before I purchased the school from the previous headmaster.

Schools that choose to pursue Olympic competition will undoubtedly practice shihap kyorugi, since that is the competition framework set up.  Those of us who aren't involved in the tournament circuit can and do practice other things.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Regarding the Olympic rules sparring thing...from my observation, it's not necessarily the rule set used even most of the time in KKW curriculum schools.  In my dojang, we spar the majority of the time like I imagine most other TKD/karate schools do:  timed rounds with stand up striking - hand attacks are equally 'rewarding' as kicks, since there is no referee scoring.  And this was true even before I purchased the school from the previous headmaster.
> 
> Schools that choose to pursue Olympic competition will undoubtedly practice shihap kyorugi, since that is the competition framework set up.  Those of us who aren't involved in the tournament circuit can and do practice other things.


This has been said many times before.  By both myself and many others.  It is one of the many points that detractors conveniently ignore.  While the majority, if not all, Kukkiwon schools practice shihap kyorugi, it is not practiced exclusively.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Better forms of 'active defense' would be open hands, forearms, edge-of-hand, elbows etc preferably to soft target areas such as the side of the head, brachial plexus, solar plexus, joints etc.  Now, nothing works on everyone all the time, and sometimes you have to take what you can get, so take what I'm offering within context please.  From personal experience, I have had the greatest positive results with elbows, forearms and edge-of-hand strikes (when it has been necessary and appropriate to use a strike or to set up for a lock, escort or throw).



Our taekwondo seniors and pioneers tell us that the primary hand weapon is the the closed fist. Its importance is underscored by the fact that many kwan have as their symbol, a closed fist. This importance is also shown to us by the fact that the hand strike that scores in taekwondo competition is, a closed fist. Those who engage in the modern competition training methods also train hand strikes and they associated strategies to effectively utilize punches against an uncooperative partner. Fist strikes are aimed at the hogu yes, but we hit all over that hogu, including up towards the collarbone. 

In any event, taekwondoin who are properly trained to effectively use fist strikes against a hard hogu have no problems adapting that training to strikes to the face. I have one student who won nationals using punches. He was dropping everybody with that. 

Instead of needlessly worrying about breaking or otherwise injuring your hand when striking someone, perhaps more time should be spent acquiring the necessary attributes and skill required to effectively strike with a closed fist, without injuring yourself.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides.



Incorrect. The hands are down by a competitor's sides for a specific reason.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Now take this example into the Dojang, if the training is for SD.  Using a full contact sparring session.
> 
> Possible current method - two practitioners get into stance.  On the command they begin trying to punch or kick each other till a point is scored in the correct area or 'damage' inflicted is considered sufficient to stop the other.
> Better method if SD is the consideration - good guy practitioner has the opportunity to avoid the situation and/or has the opportunity to deescalate the situation.  Failing that, good guy has the opportunity to scan his/her surroundings for points of escape and/or additional threats or areas of concern.  Good guy has opportunity to use concealed or improvised weapon(s) (simulated for safety).  Good guy engages and defeats bad guy(s).  Good guy leaves area, if appropriate while checking self for injuries while seeking means of escape and notification of authorities.



That might be feasible if you only have one or two students. Try teaching that to 45 six year old orange belts at the same time. Besides, why would an instructor incorporate that sort of "training" within a dojang context. The students who are there aren't primarily concerned with learning self defense, remember? If you wish to carve out a little self defense niche for yourself, then great. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> Now, not all of the above has to be done each and every time.  Additionally, one could toss in other factors such as being with a loved one and having to work through keeping them safe.  Additional threats such as more bad guys, traffic, user-unfriendly objects or obstacles.  Dim-light.  Non-flat surfaces etc.  Some times the deescalation works, some times it doesn't.  Some times avoidance works, some times it doesn't.  What I'm saying is that if we just teach strike/kick but never touch on other real-world factors the student isn't getting the training needed for other factors/possibilities.  Can we cover each and every possible situation?  No.  Can we cover a bunch of likely situations with some before and after considerations to round out the students range of responses?  Yes.  And it can be fun to do in the Dojang (and out of it) as it presents new stimulus and new challenges to the student.



If you wish to open up a private club and pass out eight track tapes for free, terrific. No one will stop you, and perhaps you may even have a waiting list of people who wish to join your club. But don't be surprised if walmart or any other store for that matter chooses not to sell, much less give away eight track tapes, and instead focuses on mp3 players, cellphones with digital music capability, as well as  cds and cd players. The people that shop at walmart don't want eight track tapes. They go someplace else for that if that is what they want, and if that is the niche that you wish to develop for yourself, more power to you. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Many is the time I came in and dimmed the lights or told the students we were going outside in the parking lot or on the grass or some other situation that took the training up a notch towards realism.  Those were the classes students would comment, "that was the best class ever"!



I wouldn't recommend that sort of thing, from a liability exposure perspective. Again, that sort of thing might be ok if you have only a couple of students, but to bring a whole class of kids out there at night in the parking lot is asking for trouble.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> Instead of needlessly worrying about breaking or otherwise injuring your hand when striking someone, perhaps more time should be spent acquiring the necessary attributes and skill required to effectively strike with a closed fist, without injuring yourself.



This is an unfounded point of view on your part.  Boxers, who I would argue are much better at striking that someone in the martial arts protect their hands for a reason.  They are easily damaged.  Real world encounters bear this out as factual.  Regardless of one's skill level, we cannot control every aspect of a chaotic real-world fight.  Closed fist strikes to soft body targets are one thing, to a hard target is quite another.  That is why those that were senior to TKD seniors developed such a variety of different strikes.

The considerations I have listed in the above couple of posts concerning closed-fist strikes come from professional, high liability training circles based on military, L.E. and private citizen altercations.  Good research on this topic would come from any system associated with William Fairbairn, Rex Applegate, Pat O'Neill, Carl Cestari, Ken Good, Tony Blauer, Tony Lambria and others within the combative communities.  

Hitting with a closed fist, while hands are taped and/or gloves are worn and/or the opponent is wearing head gear doesn't equal good training for a bare closed fist against a hard target in a real-world altercation.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> That might be feasible if you only have one or two students. Try teaching that to 45 six year old orange belts at the same time. Besides, why would an instructor incorporate that sort of "training" within a dojang context. The students who are there aren't primarily concerned with learning self defense, remember? If you wish to carve out a little self defense niche for yourself, then great.





> I wouldn't recommend that sort of thing, from a liability exposure  perspective. Again, that sort of thing might be ok if you have only a  couple of students, but to bring a whole class of kids out there at  night in the parking lot is asking for trouble.



Why would you attempt to teach a six-year old child methods meant for adults?  They should be learning age-appropriate skills as presented in this and other threads.



> If you wish to open up a private club and pass out eight track tapes for  free, terrific. No one will stop you, and perhaps you may even have a  waiting list of people who wish to join your club. But don't be  surprised if walmart or any other store for that matter chooses not to  sell, much less give away eight track tapes, and instead focuses on mp3  players, cellphones with digital music capability, as well as  cds and  cd players. The people that shop at walmart don't want eight track  tapes. They go someplace else for that if that is what they want, and if  that is the niche that you wish to develop for yourself, more power to  you.



You're comparing apples and oranges again in an effort to support or defend you circular reasoning argument.  You get so defensive and threatened when anyone talks about SD as opposed to sport.  That's silly.  Be happy with what you've learned and can pass on to others.  Be happy for those that have experience and skills you don't have that can be passed on to others.  Then you'll be happy and less defensive all the time.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is an unfounded point of view on your part.  Boxers, who I would argue are much better at striking that someone in the martial arts protect their hands for a reason.



And the reason is that they are fighting many rounds, and they get tired. Contrast this to a boxer who gets into a self defense situation, and they are not throwing more than three blows to get the job done. I have a client who was a golden gloves boxer and could have turned pro if he wanted to. He is the type that trouble always seems to follow and so he has been in by his estimate at least 100 fights. He told me that all ended after he threw one punch to the jaw of his attacker, and he never hurt his hands, ever. He said it was the same way with his friends at the boxing gym, that street fights were nothing compared to a match against a skilled opponent. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Hitting with a closed fist, while hands are taped and/or gloves are worn and/or the opponent is wearing head gear doesn't equal good training for a bare closed fist against a hard target in a real-world altercation.



You should hang out with more boxers, because they will tell you a different story.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why would you attempt to teach a six-year old child methods meant for adults?  They should be learning age-appropriate skills as presented in this and other threads.



Same concerns apply for adults as well. Maybe if you have only two students to work with it might be okay. But try teaching that to 45 adults at the same time. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> You're comparing apples and oranges again in an effort to support or defend you circular reasoning argument.



Really? What is the circular argument that you are speaking about? 



Kong Soo Do said:


> You get so defensive and threatened when anyone talks about SD as opposed to sport.



I don't know why you keep bringing up sport because it really doesn't apply. Most dojang are not geared or focused on competition or self defense, but rather other things which their student base want. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> That's silly.  Be happy with what you've learned and can pass on to others.  Be happy for those that have experience and skills you don't have that can be passed on to others.  Then you'll be happy and less defensive all the time.



I am a happy guy. We were just at the US Open Hanmadang and one person walked up to me out of the blue and said that my constant smiling face throughout the tournament was exactly what he was told the Hanmadang and taekwondo was all about. 

If I were you, I would simply accept the fact that people are not overly focused on self defense anymore in their martial arts training. And you know what, they are not overly focused on "sport" or competition either. That's just the way it is. Family friendly kid friendly training is here to stay. I used to have a problem with that, but now I don't, because it is like fighting the face of inevitability. What is the alternative, stand up and shake your fist as the tidal wave comes rolling in? Put your head in the sand and pretend it isn't so? 

Today, more people than ever are taekwondo students. And the bottom line is, that is a good thing.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> And the reason is that they are fighting many rounds, and they get tired. Contrast this to a boxer who gets into a self defense situation, and they are not throwing more than three blows to get the job done. I have a client who was a golden gloves boxer and could have turned pro if he wanted to. He is the type that trouble always seems to follow and so he has been in by his estimate at least 100 fights. He told me that all ended after he threw one punch to the jaw of his attacker, and he never hurt his hands, ever. He said it was the same way with his friends at the boxing gym, that street fights were nothing compared to a match against a skilled opponent.
> 
> You should hang out with more boxers, because they will tell you a different story.



I do know a lot of boxers, and they back up the points I've made.  Injuries in the ring can and do come in the first round just as they may happen in the last round.  And this is with tape, gloves and possibly head gear.  

Point is, once again, closed fist strikes to the face/head are NOT the best option for a plethora of reasons.  To teach otherwise is not to have the students best interest in mind.  Simple as that.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 7, 2012)

Hmmm, let me try this with you puunui.  Using just one word, respond to the following;

Day


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> And you know what, they are not overly focused on "sport" or competition either. That's just the way it is. Family friendly kid friendly training is here to stay. *I used to have a problem with that, but now I don't*, because it is like fighting the face of inevitability. What is the alternative, stand up and shake your fist as the tidal wave comes rolling in? Put your head in the sand and pretend it isn't so?


I used to have a problem with it as well.  I'm sure that a search on MT can find old threads where I expressed my problems with kid friendly training.  Lot of reasons that I no longer think along those lines.  One of those reasons was due to one of my kendo students.  She brought her nephews in who are both under twelve and both of whom take taekwondo.  They are not KKW; not sure of the federation, but it isn't a Chang Hon or ATA school either, but they do weapons, including bo, bokken, kama, and nunchuku.  Anyway,the older one is a black belt and the younger one a colored belt.  

They came in to watch the class and sat quietly and watched intently.  At the end of class, they asked me a good number of fairly intelligent questions about the kendo class, questions that people who don't practice an MA would probably never even think of; questions about footwork, weapon grip, sparring strategy, and even the zanshin after the strike.  They didn't know the term, but they picked it out as different from what they were used to.  

Since the older one was to learn the bokken as his next weapon, he asked me all manner of questions about swords.  It definitely changed my perspective on what a child can comprehend.

The overall good behavior of both kids was impressive as well.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I do know a lot of boxers, and they back up the points I've made.  Injuries in the ring can and do come in the first round just as they may happen in the last round.  And this is with tape, gloves and possibly head gear.
> 
> Point is, once again, closed fist strikes to the face/head are NOT the best option for a plethora of reasons.  To teach otherwise is not to have the students best interest in mind.  Simple as that.



Point is, once again, if you if you are so concerned about hurting your hand punching someone in the face during a self defense encounter, then perhaps the answer is to develop your abilities and skills such that you are no longer afraid of that. Another point, once again, is if hand damage is such a concern, then perhaps you should tell that to all the people who think that a face punch is the answer to defeating a taekwondo practitioner in a fight, the same people who argue that taekwondo needs more punching to be effective in a self defense situation.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Forgot about these two: 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Closed fist strikes to soft body targets are one thing, to a hard target is quite another.  That is why those that were senior to TKD seniors developed such a variety of different strikes.




I would say that the jaw, underneath the ear, is not a hard target. As for why "those that were were to TKF seniors" developed such a variety of different strikes, I would disagree. I would say that the primary weapon has always been the two knuckle punch, which is why so much time and effort was spent on makiwara training. 

What the taekwondo seniors tell us about the "variety of different strikes" is that they are to be used when your two knuckle punch fails for whatever reason, like you break your wrist or your hand gets smashed or cut with a weapon. Then as a back up you utilize the other types of strikes, including forearm and elbow. But the primary hand weapon of karate is two knuckle punch.


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## elder999 (Aug 7, 2012)

n


puunui said:


> What the taekwondo seniors tell us about the "variety of different strikes" is that they are to be used when your two knuckle punch fails for whatever reason, like you break your wrist or your hand gets smashed or cut with a weapon. Then as a back up you utilize the other types of strikes, including forearm and elbow. But the primary hand weapon of karate is two knuckle punch.




Chiming in late, here, but I'd say "for whatever reason" has an awful lot to do with where you're standing, and what's happening. 

After all, you can't do a lunge punch, or spinning back kick in a phone booth. Maybe a front kick, maybe a reverse punch, but there are more effective ways-in *karate*-to defend yourself in close quarters.

When I was in college, I bounced at a place called the "Mad Hatter," in Smithtown, LI, NY. It used to be a Woolworth's, and had one of those old time phone booths you don't see anymore-the wooden kind, with a seat in it, set into the wall. When you closed the door, a light and a fan would come on.........ah, nostalgia.

Anyway. One of my fellow bouncers was a taekwondoin-had earned some trophies in open tournaments and tae kwon do tournaments-and he was BIG. Saw him get pushed into the phone booth and eaten for lunch by a fairly strong brawler, in about 15 seconds-before I could do much about it, he'd had his jaw and a couple of ribs broken, and his groin smashed for good measure, because his training didn't give him any weapons for the phone booth-though it probably did for the way the guy just bowled into him and shoved him in there, but-for whatever reason-he didn't use it.

The "variety of different strikes" are for a "variety of circumstances,' like a phone booth, or a hillside, or a staircase, or an elevator, or a crowded bus, or a boat, or a narrow hallway, or a slippery kitchen floor, or a toilet, or......you know, all those places that "real world attacks" take place......._the *real* world_. :lfao:


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Saw him get pushed into the phone booth and eaten for lunch by a fairly strong brawler, in about 15 seconds-before I could do much about it, he'd had his jaw and a couple of ribs broken, and his groin smashed for good measure, because his training didn't give him any weapons for the phone booth-though it probably did for the way the guy just bowled into him and shoved him in there, but-for whatever reason-he didn't use it.



Your friend who got his jaw and ribs broken, what was the other guy hitting with, a closed fist?


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## bugatabugata (Aug 7, 2012)

Circling back to the original point -- I used to get in a lot of fights as a teenager (a combination of a rough environment and a bad attitude - not something I'm proud of now). The OP's correct -- most of the time, it was a punch to the face that got things rolling. Since the people I ended up fighting were usually largerand stronger, one thing that could turn the tide was a quick jab to the nose -- once the blood starts flowing, it's a huge psychological advantage and from there on out, it's relatively easy pickings. (Plus, it's painful as heck, if you've ever had it happen to you.) As that line from the "Princess Bride" goes -- it's all about communicating to your opponent that they're in for a world of pain and their best option's to fold. Sadly, didn't work all the time...got my behind whopped on many an occasion.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> And the reason is that they are fighting many rounds, and they get tired. Contrast this to a boxer who gets into a self defense situation, and they are not throwing more than three blows to get the job done. I have a client who was a golden gloves boxer and could have turned pro if he wanted to. He is the type that trouble always seems to follow and so he has been in by his estimate at least 100 fights. He told me that all ended after he threw one punch to the jaw of his attacker, and he never hurt his hands, ever. He said it was the same way with his friends at the boxing gym, that street fights were nothing compared to a match against a skilled opponent.
> 
> 
> You should hang out with more boxers, because they will tell you a different story.



Bah. Anecdotes are not science.

I never use the closed fist anywhere except in the dojang. And the ONLY time I've ever hurt my hand? A messed up block (with a closed fist...) while sparring against 3 opponents. #1 had been knocked out of range. I was focused on delivering a roundhouse to the head of #2, and blocked the kick of #3 incorrectly. The low block was too early, and got in front of the kick, and I caught it right on the 4th knuckle. That was about 15 seconds in, and by the end of the 2 minutes, that hand was a bit sore.

The idea that openhand strikes are less effective than closed is just silly.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 7, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Bah. Anecdotes are not science.


And yet, you opted to respond with one.



Dirty Dog said:


> I never use the closed fist anywhere except in the dojang. And the ONLY time I've ever hurt my hand? A messed up block (with a closed fist...) while sparring against 3 opponents. #1 had been knocked out of range. I was focused on delivering a roundhouse to the head of #2, and blocked the kick of #3 incorrectly. The low block was too early, and got in front of the kick, and I caught it right on the 4th knuckle. That was about 15 seconds in, and by the end of the 2 minutes, that hand was a bit sore.
> 
> The idea that openhand strikes are less effective than closed is just silly.


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## puunui (Aug 7, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> The idea that openhand strikes are less effective than closed is just silly.



No one said that open hand strikes are less effective than closed hand. But you claim moo duk kwan lineage right? Check out your moo duk kwan emblem. Is it an open hand or closed fist? And more importantly, why? Have you ever asked your teacher about that? I have.


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## elder999 (Aug 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> Your friend who got his jaw and ribs broken, what was the other guy hitting with, a closed fist?



Well, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, but, yes, Glenn-the 3rd dan tournament winning, pre-Olympic Olympic hopeful-circa 1981, and, no he didn't make the "demonstration team" in 1988-I don't even know if he got to try out, but he  got beaten by a relatively untrained man with closed fists.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 7, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And yet, you opted to respond with one.



Sure. Science gets science. Anecdotes get anecdotes. I just find that some people don't seem to know the difference between the two.


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## puunui (Aug 8, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Well, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, but, yes, Glenn-the 3rd dan tournament winning, pre-Olympic Olympic hopeful-circa 1981, and, no he didn't make the "demonstration team" in 1988-I don't even know if he got to try out, but he  got beaten by a relatively untrained man with closed fists.



Did the relatively untrained man hurt his hand?


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 8, 2012)

puunui said:


> Did the relatively untrained man hurt his hand?


I really think you are missing the point of his post.


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## elder999 (Aug 8, 2012)

puunui said:


> Did the relatively untrained man hurt his hand?



I honestly don't know. He _*did*_ wet his pants when I choked him out.....:lfao:



ralphmcpherson said:


> I really think you are missing the point of his post.




No, he knows what I was saying; Glenn's just ignoring it with his usual obtuse obfuscation......:lfao:


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 8, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I really think you are missing the point of his post.



There's a difference between missing the point and ignoring the point.


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## puunui (Aug 8, 2012)

elder999 said:


> I honestly don't know. He _*did*_ wet his pants when I choked him out.....:lfao:



Hopefully when he woke up, you gave him a talk about the dangers of striking someone with his closed fist. 




elder999 said:


> No, he knows what I was saying; Glenn's just ignoring it with his usual obtuse obfuscation......:lfao:



Not really, just making a point about the kinds of arguments that come back when I post something. Don't know who your partner is, but you know what they say, anyone can be beaten on any given day. Sounds like he deserved to get beat up, if he let himself get shoved into a telephone booth. No shame in getting beat up, competitors in any martial art face that. In my opinion, if you have never been beat up at least once, then you really haven't tested yourself and you won't really reach your potential. I got beat up by a taekwondo practitioner, which is why I studied taekwondo in the first place. That was the best thing that happened to me, because prior to that, I, like many others, didn't really respect taekwondo, mainly because I didn't really know what it was.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 8, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Science gets science. Anecdotes get anecdotes. I just find that some people don't seem to know the difference between the two.


It would seem that you would have opted to counter anecdotes with a scientific answer which may carry more weight (since most of us, myself included, give more weight to scientific answers).  But without doing so, your criticism of him for using anecdotes rings hollow.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 8, 2012)

If we could take a momentary break from the interpersonal sniping, I'd like to make a little comment on the question of striking with the closed fist to the head.

What you see with regards to head punching is an example of the asymmetry of self-defense situations.
1) Punching to the head can be an effective method for knocking someone out and is thus a danger to be reckoned with.
2) Punching to the head can lead to a broken hand for the puncher.

If you are on the receiving end of a sucker punch to the head and get knocked out or severely hurt, it isn't really the greatest consolation to think that your attacker might have hurt his knuckles on your skull.

On the other hand if you knock out your attacker with a punch to the head and break your hand in the process, then you may have some unpleasant consequences - particularly if there are more attackers to deal with or if you have to use your hands for work the next day.

(Self-defense situations tend to have a number of these asymmetries, which is part of what distinguished them from "dueling" scenarios like a MMA bout.)

From a self-defense standpoint, your training would ideally include both time spent developing a solid defense against head punches and effective weapons of your own which do not depend on punching a hard skull. (Alternatively, you could develop the hand conditioning and technique which would enable you to reliably punch bare-knuckle to the head and not injure yourself. I offer no opinions about what conditioning & technical methods are effective for this purpose.)


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## puunui (Aug 8, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> On the other hand if you knock out your attacker with a punch to the head and break your hand in the process, then you may have some unpleasant consequences - particularly if there are more attackers to deal with or if you have to use your hands for work the next day.




What is that compared to "surviving"? In taekwondo, makiwara training has been replaced with hogu drill training, where full force strikes are employed against a live moving target. Striking a hogu correctly is not the same as hitting a makiwara, which is probably the best tool for developing one's forefist punch, but it is better than nothing. And though the punches are aimed at the hogu, including up around the collarbone, it is a easy and small adaption to aim that punch towards an opponent's face, which by the way, happens in matches. it takes developed skill to strike a hogu correctly, and that skill is transferable to a self defense scenario. But even someone argued not, the hogu trained body shots will take the wind out of you if someone strikes and you are not wearing a hogu. This is something that is explainable in a forum such as this, but someone will not truly understand the words unless they go through the training themselves and experience it, for themselves.


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## puunui (Aug 8, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It would seem that you would have opted to counter anecdotes with a scientific answer which may carry more weight (since most of us, myself included, give more weight to scientific answers).  But without doing so, your criticism of him for using anecdotes rings hollow.




But the anecdote doesn't even apply because his hand was hurt when he failed to block correctly and was struck, and not when he balled up his fist and hit someone in the head with it. If he had done that and then hurt his hand, perhaps the anecdote would have fit the idea that it is not a good idea to strike the head with a closed fist. But that wasn't the case. Instead, the example went more to the idea that improper or a lack of training or doing a movement incorrectly or bad timing will get you hurt. It's hard to tell without more information explaining the anecdote.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 8, 2012)

Puunui, I'm not quite certain - in your post where you quote me are you under the impression that you are arguing with anything I said?  

I'm actually very much in favor of punching to the body.  As far as "what is that compared to surviving", I quite agree that if the only choices are punching to the head or not surviving a confrontation then it is preferable to punch to the head.  I merely point out that it does carry risks* and it is a good idea to have alternatives.

*(For example, if you break your hand punching the first attacker then you may not be able to punch so hard when his buddy shows up.)


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## puunui (Aug 8, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm actually very much in favor of punching to the body.  As far as "what is that compared to surviving", I quite agree that if the only choices are punching to the head or not surviving a confrontation then it is preferable to punch to the head.  I merely point out that it does carry risks* and it is a good idea to have alternatives.




Sure, no argument with that. The pioneers say that the fore fist punch is the primary hand striking method, the one that receives the most attention due to makiwara training. Of course there are other strikes that are done on the makiwara, but the main one is two knuckle, fore fist punch. But if your hand does get injured, then of course there are other weapons to be used, such as ridge or knife hand, palm heel, elbow, etc. But the two knuckle punch is your primary weapon, at least according to them. 

But let me ask you: How much risk of injury do you think it is when punching someone in the head? Personally, while the possibility is there, I don't think it is very high myself, especially if you are an old school type that sees makiwara training as an essential part of the training process. GM LEE Won Kuk said, and I quote, "No makiwara, no karate".


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## seasoned (Aug 8, 2012)

The heart of Okinawan GoJu is the fist, as demonstrated by Shinjo Masanobu Sensei.
If you spar with protective gear, you need to train makiwara even more to off set the striking with the wrong part of the fist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWw7N_4O98Q&feature=player_detailpage


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 9, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It would seem that you would have opted to counter anecdotes with a scientific answer which may carry more weight (since most of us, myself included, give more weight to scientific answers). But without doing so, your criticism of him for using anecdotes rings hollow.



I can't site formal studies, however, if it makes you happy I will say this.
I've seen countless boxers fractures (typically fractures of the 4th and/or 5th metacarpals), generally caused by punching something unforgiving, like a wall. I cannot recall ever seeing one caused by a punch to another person. Nor can I think of ANY hand fractures caused by an open hand strike, to a person OR an inanimate object.

Is this because people don't strike open handed, or because people who use open hand strikes tend to be people with some degree of training? I can't say with certainty, since there are no formal studies that I am aware of. However, from a purely physiologic standpoint, there is no reason to think that an open hand strike carries a greater (or lesser) risk of self-injury than a strike with the fist.

I'm sure injuries occur with both open and closed hand strikes to another person. But they're certainly far from common in the general population.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 9, 2012)

puunui said:


> But let me ask you: How much risk of injury do you think it is when punching someone in the head?



Hard to say exactly.  I do know that before they started using padded gloves in the UFC, fractured hands were relatively common.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 9, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hard to say exactly. I do know that before they started using padded gloves in the UFC, fractured hands were relatively common.



Correct. 



			
				Tony Dismukes said:
			
		

> I'm actually very much in favor of punching to the body. As far as "what is that compared to surviving", I quite agree that if the only choices are punching to the head or not surviving a confrontation then it is preferable to punch to the head. I merely point out that it does carry risks* and it is a good idea to have alternatives.
> 
> *(For example, if you break your hand punching the first attacker then you may not be able to punch so hard when his buddy shows up.)



Exactly. This is the point I've made previously. Under duress, one of the things that can be seriously effected is manual dexterity. If one injures their hand(s) unnecessarily they further compromise that manual dexterity. This can effect to a large degree what would ordinarily be a simple task i.e. open or close a door, hold and handle keys, dial a phone, render first aid on self or others and a plethora of other tasks that may be necessary to effect self-rescue from a situation. Closed fist strikes to soft targets are a good idea. Open hand strikes to hard body targets are a better option if available. I'll cite the works of Fairbairn, Applegate, Cestari, O'Neill, Lambria, Good, Blauer (all of which have had extensive martial arts training) and other combatives professionals that opt for open hand blows such as the chin-jab (which uses a palm heel). They understood the risks of injuring your hand which would then effect other essential tasks in the follow-up period.

It is fool-hearty (or inexperience) to suggest, 'just toughen your hands up'. As someone who has done an extensive amount of hard-body conditioning, including the hands, arms, legs and core I can tell you that it is still too easy to injure the hand and/or wrist in a real world altercation. Controlled practice in a Dojang or competition in the appropriate venue with protective equipment isn't real life, nor does it take in real world considerations. Further advice given has been to 'learn to punch correctly'...well Duh! But learning to punch correctly in the controlled environment of the Dojang, often while wearing protective gear (though not always), does not consider the factors that are involved in a real world altercation. The bottom line is this; professionals that actually use this type of training in real world settings advocate using open hand strikes on hard body targets as opposed to closed hand strikes. I would take this experience over the opinion of someone with limited or no experience in real world altercations. That isn't meant to be a snipe. But it is worth pointing out that if you want advice on _'real world attacks' _you seek out the experience of those that have had a LOT of them and find out what works well and what doesn't work so well. 

That separates theory from experience.


----------



## seasoned (Aug 9, 2012)

Side note,
Street survival depends to a large part on being able to strike from all angles, and the closed fist is not always the best choice. And this coming from one that advocates the fist (first 2 knuckles). Ears, eyes, nose and throat being a good place to start, could require a certain hand position at close range to accomplish this.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 9, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've seen countless boxers fractures (typically fractures of the 4th and/or 5th metacarpals), generally caused by punching something unforgiving, like a wall. I cannot recall ever seeing one caused by a punch to another person.



Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight.  "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm


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## andyjeffries (Aug 9, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hard to say exactly.  I do know that before they started using padded gloves in the UFC, fractured hands were relatively common.



Still happens now.  Jamie Varner broke his hand at UFC on Fox 4 this weekend just gone.  Anthony Njokuani broke his in July this year. Dominic Cruz broke his in late 2011.  All are since using padded gloves (and I'm sure there are others).

These are fighters with their wrists professionally wrapped and wearing (admittedly small) padded gloves.


----------



## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Closed fist strikes to soft targets are a good idea. Open hand strikes to hard body targets are a better option if available. I'll cite the works of Fairbairn, Applegate, Cestari, O'Neill, Lambria, Good, Blauer (all of which have had extensive martial arts training) and other combatives professionals that opt for open hand blows such as the chin-jab (which uses a palm heel). They understood the risks of injuring your hand which would then effect other essential tasks in the follow-up period.



Found this page for Carl Cestari selling videos. Here's one he made called "Bare Kunckle Boxing" and the picture on the DVD cover shows him punching his opponent's head with a closed fist. 

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-5/6)--OS5--dsh-/Detail.bok



Kong Soo Do said:


> It is fool-hearty (or inexperience) to suggest, 'just toughen your hands up'. As someone who has done an extensive amount of hard-body conditioning, including the hands, arms, legs and core I can tell you that it is still too easy to injure the hand and/or wrist in a real world altercation.



Again Carl Cestari is selling a video called "Iron Fist Iron Body", so apparently he believes that hand conditioning is worthwhile. 

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-7/9)-IRON-FIST-IRON/Detail.bok



Kong Soo Do said:


> Controlled practice in a Dojang or competition in the appropriate venue with protective equipment isn't real life, nor does it take in real world considerations. Further advice given has been to 'learn to punch correctly'...well Duh! But learning to punch correctly in the controlled environment of the Dojang, often while wearing protective gear (though not always), does not consider the factors that are involved in a real world altercation.



The thing that you keep missing, is that training using the modern competition training methods gear workouts with the idea that you will be striking full force against a live moving, non cooperative target, using hogu based scenario training. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> The bottom line is this; professionals that actually use this type of training in real world settings advocate using open hand strikes on hard body targets as opposed to closed hand strikes.



Not Carl. See above. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> I would take this experience over the opinion of someone with limited or no experience in real world altercations. That isn't meant to be a snipe. But it is worth pointing out that if you want advice on _'real world attacks' _you seek out the experience of those that have had a LOT of them and find out what works well and what doesn't work so well.



I agree. I believe it is important to actually listen to what people with experience have to say, as opposed to listening to what others think they are saying. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> That separates theory from experience.



Exactly.


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## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight.  "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm



Perhaps if he had done some makiwara or even cover punch hogu drills, he wouldn't have hurt his hand like that.


----------



## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Still happens now.  Jamie Varner broke his hand at UFC on Fox 4 this weekend just gone.  Anthony Njokuani broke his in July this year. Dominic Cruz broke his in late 2011.  All are since using padded gloves (and I'm sure there are others).
> 
> These are fighters with their wrists professionally wrapped and wearing (admittedly small) padded gloves.



I'm not surprised. It's like breaking boards without first conditioning your striking weapons. The key is the conditioning.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 9, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Side note,
> Street survival depends to a large part on being able to strike from all angles, and the closed fist is not always the best choice. And this coming from one that advocates the fist (first 2 knuckles). Ears, eyes, nose and throat being a good place to start, could require a certain hand position at close range to accomplish this.





			
				Gwai Lo Dan Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight. "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm" said:
			
		

> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7694/index.htm[/URL]





			
				andyjeffries said:
			
		

> Still happens now. Jamie Varner broke his hand at UFC on Fox 4 this weekend just gone. Anthony Njokuani broke his in July this year. Dominic Cruz broke his in late 2011. All are since using padded gloves (and I'm sure there are others).
> 
> These are fighters with their wrists professionally wrapped and wearing (admittedly small) padded gloves.



Here we have some good examples of professionally trained, experience fighters that still get their hands injured in street fights and even in the ring with protective equipement.  Some will try to say that these people haven't conditioned their hands though or that they 'don't know how to punch correctly.  One would think Mike Tyson would knew how to punch correctly...

Oddly enough some that are inexperienced will try to support a weak position by going to google instead of listening to the words of those with more experience than themselves.  For example, trying to pesent Carl Cestari with a picture of him using a closed fist.  One would wonder if he actually ordered and watched the video instead of simply linking to it?  Had he looked a bit closer, he would have seen in the body of the description, "THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS" i.e. they aren't a primary tool.  Secondly, many videos are presented with open hand strikes.  In fact, all of them (11) with the exception of one that are the adjunct techniques.  As I have seen them, I can attest that they cover in detail WWII combatives such as chin jabs, elbow smashes, shin scrapes, hip checks, elbow spikes, EOH (edge-of-hand) etc.  

Perhaps it is better to realize punching someone in the head just isnt' the best option and that many better options exist?  Seems more profitable than spending time searching google for videos one hasn't actually watched.


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## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here we have some good examples of professionally trained, experience fighters that still get their hands injured in street fights and even in the ring with protective equipement.  Some will try to say that these people haven't conditioned their hands though or that they 'don't know how to punch correctly.  One would think Mike Tyson would knew how to punch correctly...



No one said Mike Tyson doesn't know how to punch correctly. Where did you get that from? 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Oddly enough some that are inexperienced will try to support a weak position by going to google instead of listening to the words of those with more experience than themselves.  For example, trying to pesent Carl Cestari with a picture of him using a closed fist.  One would wonder if he actually ordered and watched the video instead of simply linking to it?  Had he looked a bit closer, he would have seen in the body of the description, "THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS" i.e. they aren't a primary tool.



The point is, which you missed, is that here is an "expert" that you identified that does advocate punching the head with a closed fist. Your own expert which you cite contradicts you.  




Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps it is better to realize punching someone in the head just isnt' the best option and that many better options exist?



Again, please make sure you tell that to all the people who think face punching a taekwondoin with a closed fist is the answer. You're hurting their argument and position much more than the other way around. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Seems more profitable than spending time searching google for videos one hasn't actually watched.



It was time went spent, because it netted the fact that your own "expert" which you cite says and does something different. Bare knuckle boxing I would think would include closed fist strikes to the head, just like it is shown on the cover of that dvd.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 9, 2012)

puunui said:


> Bare knuckle boxing I would think would include closed fist strikes to the head, just like it is shown on the cover of that dvd.



I appears then that you haven't watched this DVD and simply posted a link to the cover. So really, you would have no idea what material is contained within the training. Nor would I imagine you've watched the other 11 DVD's that show open hand striked (and other body part strikes) and also contain that material within (as I have watched them). So no, I would not consider 11 to 1 as a contradiction in what is presented. As I've mentioned;



			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> It is better to realize punching someone in the head just isnt' the best option and that many better options exist?



It's okay to admit your wrong. It's okay to learn from someone (or many someones) that has more experience in this area than you. No one is going to say 'gotcha' or 'I told you so' if that's what your worried about. We're all here for each other, but you have to be willing to learn as well as teach.  The best teachers are also the best students and humbly accept correction and instruction.


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## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Had he looked a bit closer, he would have seen in the body of the description, "THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS" i.e. they aren't a primary tool.



I wouldn't be so sure about that. This is what the body says, in full, unlike the edited version you put out above:

"THIS DVD COVERS BOXING AND FIST FIGHTING FOR CLOSE COMBAT.  THE METHODS  EMULATE THOSE TAUGHT IN BARE KNUCKLE BOXING.  YOU WILL LEARN HOW TO HIT  WITH POWER ANYWHERE ON THE BODY AND HOW TO DEVELOP AN EFFECTIVE KNOCKOUT  TECHNIQUE.  WITH PROPER CONDITIONING, TRAINING AND ATTITUDE THESE  TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE  METHODS."

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-5/6)--OS5--dsh-/Detail.bok

You basically left out the important part which is "WITH PROPER CONDITIONING, TRAINING AND ATTITUDE" which is what has been stated all along. And part of that proper conditioning would be his "Iron Fist" (as opposed to iron palm) conditioning exercises, which is the subject of another dvd by him. 

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-7/9)-IRON-FIST-IRON/Detail.bok



Kong Soo Do said:


> Secondly, many videos are presented with open hand strikes.



But he obviously thought so much about closed fist striking that he made an entire dvd about it, a fact you neglected to disclose when you offered him up as an expert.


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## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I appears then that you haven't watched this DVD and simply posted a link to the cover. So really, you would have no idea what material is contained within the training. Nor would I imagine you've watched the other 11 DVD's that show open hand striked (and other body part strikes) and also contain that material within (as I have watched them). So no, I would not consider 11 to 1 as a contradiction in what is presented. As I've mentioned;
> 
> It's okay to admit your wrong. It's okay to learn from someone (or many someones) that has more experience in this area than you. No one is going to say 'gotcha' or 'I told you so' if that's what your worried about. We're all here for each other, but you have to be willing to learn as well as teach.  The best teachers are also the best students and humbly accept correction and instruction.



You're more experienced why, because you watched some dvds?


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 9, 2012)

puunui said:


> But he obviously thought so much about closed fist striking that he made an entire dvd about it...



And made, at least, eleven others showing open hand (and other) strikes which he refers to as 'advanced' strikes on some of the labels. I would say that is a good indication of the totality of the training and what he advocates as priorities. And again, you haven't watched any of them and don't have any understanding of the content. 



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> You're more experienced why, because you watched some dvds?



You know why Glenn.  But if you need me to refresh your memory just let me know.  

It's still okay to admit your wrong. Still time to be a humble student. Stop digging this hole Glenn. Take the hand...take the hand.


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## puunui (Aug 9, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I would say that is a good indication of the totality of the training and what he advocates as priorities. And again, you haven't watched any of them and don't have any understanding of the content.



Watching videos isn't "experience". But in the Bare Knuckle Boxing dvd, does he have any strikes to the head with a closed fist? Is that one pretty much dedicated to closed fist striking? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> It's still okay to admit your wrong. Still time to be a humble student. Stop digging this hole Glenn. Take the hand...take the hand.



Wrong about what, that Carl is an advocate of both "fist" conditioning as well as punching with a closed fist to the head?


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, it was at least worth a shot but I see it just isn't going to happen.  Well, off the rabbit trail and back on to the topic of real world attacks and things associated with them.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 9, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight.  "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm



I wasn't talking about professional fighters, who no doubt punch a lot harder than the average Joe, or even the average martial artist. And I really doubt that Mr Tyson conditioned his hands the way we do. Don't you think spending some time building up to full force unpadded strikes could have prevented this injury?


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 11, 2013)

Undoubtedly the most common real world attack is the right hand punch to the head as most people are right handed. the left hand punch to the head is almost as common as there is still a large amount of people who are left handed and most people do not generally punch with only one hand. If they come in swinging they will most likely be using both hands. Some form of uppercut/upset punch to the body is also common as is the front kick (not generally the classic front kick from a martial art but similar enough such as a football style kick to the groin that can be defended the same way). a backhander, similar to a backfist strike is also something a common street thug might throw. Knee strikes and headbutts are somewhat less common but the basic movement does not require any special knowledge of martial arts. A palm push to the chest, front choke hold, lapel grab, headlock and tackle as well as a hair pull (mostly for the ladies), bear hug (if they are holding you for someone else to attack you) and rear neck grab are some common holds that you might encounter from someone without much training in martial arts.

These are based upon real world situations and events I have witness both before and after starting to learn martial arts.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 12, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Undoubtedly the most common real world attack is the right hand punch to the head as most people are right handed. the left hand punch to the head is almost as common as there is still a large amount of people who are left handed and most people do not generally punch with only one hand. If they come in swinging they will most likely be using both hands. Some form of uppercut/upset punch to the body is also common as is the front kick (not generally the classic front kick from a martial art but similar enough such as a football style kick to the groin that can be defended the same way). a backhander, similar to a backfist strike is also something a common street thug might throw. Knee strikes and headbutts are somewhat less common but the basic movement does not require any special knowledge of martial arts. A palm push to the chest, front choke hold, lapel grab, headlock and tackle as well as a hair pull (mostly for the ladies), bear hug (if they are holding you for someone else to attack you) and rear neck grab are some common holds that you might encounter from someone without much training in martial arts.
> 
> These are based upon real world situations and events I have witness both before and after starting to learn martial arts.



Just to set the tone, im replying to offer context. I find your list quite agreeable as far as mundane fights go.
Im only adding that because i know in the past, a couple of brief discussions weve had have been of a more questioning nature on my part. 

Your list:

-Right Hand Punch (Is common, but more because it tends to work pretty well. People arent stupid - Its rarely a huge wide swing.)
-Left Hand Punch (Is more common than one might think. However i suspect its more of an unintended snap of intelligence where you notice that your lead hand happens to be closer than your rear)
-Upward Punch (Theres really no difference between an upset and uppercut punch besides terminology.)
-Front Kick (To be fair, a football kick to the leg or body isnt much different to a formal front kick.)
-Backfist (Tends to be incidental, for the most part. Swinging your fist backward isnt something ive seen or heard of being done on purpose, however under pressure, people can tend to leave their arm out when they swing their opposite arm in, which can create an incidental backfist.)
-Knee Kick (They dont actually have much use [very often]. I suspect some people might try them because theyre led to believe they are. Ive never even heard of someone using them, but im not going to pull you up on that. Im not saying they dont work - Im saying you dont get a worthwhile chance to use them often, but some folks see them as being a low line attack, and therefore good.)
-Headbutt (There is actually more to headbutting than you might think. Do it wrong [and i do not mean the targetting] and youll hurt yourself. There is, in fact, proper headbutting methods)
-Hair Pull (Which works surprisingly well on men as well, if you grab a handfull of hair and dig into the face)
-Bearhug (Or body lock, which is used more often by one person against another than you might think, and doesnt rely on their being a group - Albeit, it is also used in that manner. Im not saying youre wrong. But it is pretty good as a way of dragging someone down to the ground, since it severely limits what you can actually do in defense, and offers some control over the spine. Dont underestimate body locks as an attacking method.)
-Palm Push To The Chest (Thats a bit of a complicated way of saying you go over and shove someone. Though i wouldnt really call it an attack. It doesnt do much. It usually either means theres about to be an attack, or that the person doing the shoving doesnt know if they want to commit to a fight or not.)
-Lapel Grab (Which also works surprisingly well, regardless of training)
-Headlock (Also works surprisingly well, unless youre really stupid and just stand there with your arm around someone grabbing at your own wrist.)
-Tackle (Requires momentum. If youve got that momentum, you have a 60/40 chance of stopping it from happening. But fights that start with tackles are usually when one of the initial aggressors mates decide to join in.)
-Front Choke Hold (One or two handed? Two handed is quite effective. And quite hard to get out of, even with methods of doing so.)
-Rear Neck Grab (Are you referring to a choke with the hands, a choke with the arms, or a headlock from behind? All of those are valid, mind you.)

Thats not a bad list as far as fighting goes.
One thing: These are all functional attacks which you can also encounter from someone with a great deal of training in martial arts, because they all work quite well.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 12, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> -Upward Punch (Theres really no difference between an upset and uppercut punch besides terminology.)



The main difference between an uppercut and an upset punch is the angle of attack. An uppercut travels in an upward direction, most commonly underneath the jaw whilst an upset punch travels more forward, typically to the floating ribs or kidneys. An uppercut is basically a variation of an upset punch but they can be called separate techniques depending on your point of view.

The call them upset punches because if you get hit with one you get upset.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 12, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> The main difference between an uppercut and an upset punch is the angle of attack. An uppercut travels in an upward direction, most commonly underneath the jaw whilst an upset punch travels more forward, typically to the floating ribs or kidneys. An uppercut is basically a variation of an upset punch but they can be called separate techniques depending on your point of view.
> 
> The call them upset punches because if you get hit with one you get upset.



You pretty much just said that an upset punch is an uppercut to the body


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 12, 2013)

Since we're talking about upper cuts to the head and/or body, I'll toss out the arm pit.  After a gross motor skill deflection or a trap or from a grapple an upper cut into the arm pit (particularly using a knuckle punch) can do wonders to cease hostilities from someone.  Done hard/fast enough it can damage the shoulder and facilitate a lock or throw quite nicely.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 12, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Since we're talking about upper cuts to the head and/or body, I'll toss out the arm pit.  After a gross motor skill deflection or a trap or from a grapple an upper cut into the arm pit (particularly using a knuckle punch) can do wonders to cease hostilities from someone.  Done hard/fast enough it can damage the shoulder and facilitate a lock or throw quite nicely.



Now to find a partner wholl let me gently try it on them


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## mook jong man (Feb 12, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Since we're talking about upper cuts to the head and/or body, I'll toss out the arm pit.  After a gross motor skill deflection or a trap or from a grapple an upper cut into the arm pit (particularly using a knuckle punch) can do wonders to cease hostilities from someone.  Done hard/fast enough it can damage the shoulder and facilitate a lock or throw quite nicely.



The arm pit is a vital spot
There is a technique in Wing Chun where we side parry the opponents straight punch and we shift to the side and side slash up into the arm pit area with the edge of our hand.
It is very painful and it can feel like your whole arm has been paralysed.


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## Instructor (Feb 12, 2013)

I find a thumb shoved forcefully into each armpit is a great remedy for bear hugs.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 12, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> You pretty much just said that an upset punch is an uppercut to the body



Yes but only if it travels in a predominately upward direction and not just forward.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 12, 2013)

Instructor said:


> I find a thumb shoved forcefully into each armpit is a great remedy for bear hugs.



What if you are bear hugged from behind?


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 12, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> What if you are bear hugged from behind?



Grapevine the forward leg.  This makes it very difficult for them to pitch you backwards onto your head.  From there you bring your hands to the rear and take whatever presents itself.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 12, 2013)

Instructor said:


> I find a thumb shoved forcefully into each armpit is a great remedy for bear hugs.



Yes.  And for a forward bear hug where the arms are pinned, knuckles into the crease that is formed by the upper leg and lap area will hit some very sensitive spots.  Particularly if you lower your center of balance and sprawl backward.  Sets the attacker up for a upper body grab and knee spike.

Of course the best bet is situational awareness so you don't get hugged in the first place


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## Cyriacus (Feb 12, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Yes but only if it travels in a predominately upward direction and not just forward.



Upon experimenting, i have only one question: Exactly how far away are you standing from someone when you do that? Because it doesnt seem useful at all unless theyre right out at arms length, and close up if doesnt have any power.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 13, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Upon experimenting, i have only one question: Exactly how far away are you standing from someone when you do that? Because it doesnt seem useful at all unless theyre right out at arms length, and close up if doesnt have any power.



The upset punch is a close range technique like the knee, elbow and headbutt, about the length of your forearm away. It is not as powerful as an uppercut but you could still break someones ribs or knock the wind out of them. The punch starts from the hip with the palm facing down and your elbow must remain close to your ribs when you do this punch, the further your elbow is from your ribs the less powerful is the punch. Think of it like carrying a heavy weight with your arms outstretched instead of carrying the weight close to your body. This is a good punch if you are in a bar and you have to defend yourself, if the other person is focused on your face he may not see it coming.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 14, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> The upset punch is a close range technique like the knee, elbow and headbutt, about the length of your forearm away. It is not as powerful as an uppercut but you could still break someones ribs or knock the wind out of them. The punch starts from the hip with the palm facing down and your elbow must remain close to your ribs when you do this punch, the further your elbow is from your ribs the less powerful is the punch. Think of it like carrying a heavy weight with your arms outstretched instead of carrying the weight close to your body. This is a good punch if you are in a bar and you have to defend yourself, if the other person is focused on your face he may not see it coming.


So, why wouldnt you just direct it slightly upward? You yourself just said it isnt as powerful as an uppercut, and uppercuts can be done from the same range to better effect. Done in direct comparison, like ive been doing, i dont really see the appeal.
I know the technical side of it, this isnt a lack of understanding.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 14, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> uppercuts can be done from the same range to better effect.



A uppercut directed to the floating ribs would require you to start much lower than you would with an upset punch and would be a little bit slower (longer travel distance) overall whilst the upset punch would stay at the same level. An uppercut to the jaw would be more powerful than an upset punch to the floating ribs. Bottom line - uppercuts come from below the target and upset punches come from the same level this basically determines the choice between the 2 techniques if you choose to use them. But it's not my job to sell you on the punch, if you don't like it don't use it.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 14, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> A uppercut directed to the floating ribs would require you to start much lower than you would with an upset punch and would be a little bit slower (longer travel distance) overall whilst the upset punch would stay at the same level. An uppercut to the jaw would be more powerful than an upset punch to the floating ribs. Bottom line - uppercuts come from below the target and upset punches come from the same level this basically determines the choice between the 2 techniques if you choose to use them. But it's not my job to sell you on the punch, if you don't like it don't use it.



Im not asking you to sell me on it - Im just curious. Ive learnt the technique myself, and never had any use for it.

In closing then, for an upset punch to begin, the hand is in position X, then moves to target Y. The same goes for an uppercut. If your hand is already down on your hip, specifically, its already low enough to throw an uppercut if you turn your shoulder in to gain the momentum youd normally gain from lowering your hand down from head/shoulder height. Im not trying to be sold on the move, im just trying to work out why someone, without referring to you or anyone else in particular, would train it over uppercuts when an uppercut can do everything it can do. To each their own, i suppose.


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