# Kung Fu in mainland China- a discussion?



## Vajramusti (Jan 25, 2016)

Mao and traditional  kung fu in mainland China. The Communist revolution China appears to have had devastating
results in mainland China. Bad enough when Mao came to power- much worse with the Cultural revolution.
Chen taiji survived despite terrorization by Red guards. Chen Xiao wang has brought about a great revival
despite the damage to his father. Some Xing Yi and Pakua folks went  to Taiwan, SEsia and elsewhere.

Later showy wu shu emerged."Martial" became an unwelcome legacy.

In wing chun-Ip Man left for Macau and then Hong Kong.Even though a couple of his early disciples were left behind IM took much with him.
Neither WSL or HKM thought that any good wing chun was left on the mainland.
Then with videos you see the see-do versions. But then even in the UK and US video watchers seem to abound.
I am just sharing a view point.


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## KPM (Jan 25, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> Neither WSL or HKM thought that any good wing chun was left on the mainland.
> .



But since so many of them went "underground" or practiced in remote areas, how would they know?  Sum Nun's students seemed to have survived and done well in Guang Dong.  The Pin Sun guys were still going strong in Ku Lo village.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 25, 2016)

The thing to always take into consideration on mainland china, pre-mao and doubly so when Mao was in power is...the nail that stands up gets pounded down.


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## ivanr (Jan 26, 2016)

People in China have experienced hard times, no doubt.

But who says that good/traditional kung fu in China is not survived is either a) idiot, b) uninformed. BTW - you know that in China is no anymore good Chinese cuisine? All good cooks emigrated to the Holy America or Taiwan ... When i went first time to China, i was under strong influence of european "Hong Kong Yip Man Wing Chun" people and their silly ideas about that thema. Most of them mix of both cathegoryes a) + b), with very few exceptions. I expected in China "the worst" and found "the best"!
Most interesting thing is, most of that "experts" never went to China and have not even basic knowledge of cantonese or chinese. They just repeat, repeat, repeat something very stupid.

Problem is, how to find your teacher over there - to many, and to many same like in other coutryes, rubish... And then - communication. Sometimes people are looking for apple in computer store.

But again - people in China, so kung fu people too, have experienced hard times, no doubt...


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## geezer (Jan 26, 2016)

ivanr said:


> And then - communication. Sometimes people are looking for apple in computer store....



Apple? In a computer store?  Do you mean the fruit or the computer? And, do you realize you have just made a pun illustrating the problems of miscommunication?


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## geezer (Jan 26, 2016)

ivanr said:


> And then - communication. Sometimes people are looking for apple in computer store....



Apple? In a computer store?  Do you mean the fruit or the computer? And, do you realize you have just made a pun illustrating the problems of miscommunication? 


So did you study a branch of Yip Man Wing Chun before? And now you follow a mainland instructor? Why not share a little about yourself and your experiences?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2016)

well, you generally do not find apples







In a computer store






You also do not find computers in the Apple store






Or at least that is what a Mac user will tell you....


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## KPM (Jan 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> Apple? In a computer store?  Do you mean the fruit or the computer? And, do you realize you have just made a pun illustrating the problems of miscommunication?
> 
> 
> So did you study a branch of Yip Man Wing Chun before? And now you follow a mainland instructor? Why not share a little about yourself and your experiences?



Ivan is probably more well-traveled than Sergio!  It would be great to hear some of his insights and experiences with mainland Chinese instructors.  How about it Ivan?  I know you spent a lot of time with Wong Nim Yi?  Who else have you studied with?  Thanks!


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## guy b. (Jan 26, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> Mao and traditional  kung fu in mainland China. The Communist revolution China appears to have had devastating
> results in mainland China. Bad enough when Mao came to power- much worse with the Cultural revolution.
> Chen taiji survived despite terrorization by Red guards. Chen Xiao wang has brought about a great revival
> despite the damage to his father. Some Xing Yi and Pakua folks went  to Taiwan, SEsia and elsewhere.
> ...



You are saying that all of the pin sun, kulo, yks and other wing chun that has been creeping out of the woodwork in various places is made up by watching YM wing chun and that real wing chun died in China?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2016)

Wang Zhi Peng is Wing Chun and in Beijing, but he may be YM lineage.

There is another lineage on Mainland, but I cannot remember the name of that version


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 26, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wang Zhi Peng is Wing Chun and in Beijing, but he may be YM lineage.
> 
> There is another lineage on Mainland, but I cannot remember the name of that version



He is YM lineage, via Wong Sheung Leung > Li Heng-Chang > Wang Zhi Peng.


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## geezer (Jan 26, 2016)

guy b. said:


> You are saying that all of the pin sun, kulo, yks and other wing chun that has been creeping out of the woodwork in various places is made up by watching YM wing chun and that real wing chun died in China?



I saw Joy's post. I didn't read that. Anybody else read that?

Actually, I was a little confused . It was something about these:






You know, I've never ridden one of them _see-do_ thingies.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2016)

That's ok, I have never ridden one of those sea-do thingies either...but my very first sensei (Jujutsu) rode one from Florida to Bahamas......


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## Vajramusti (Jan 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> I saw Joy's post. I didn't read that. Anybody else read that?
> 
> Actually, I was a little confused . It was something about these:
> 
> ...


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## Vajramusti (Jan 26, 2016)

Confused? Dem are boat people.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2016)

It is just the 21st century paying homage to


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## yak sao (Jan 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> You know, I've never ridden one of them _see-do_ thingies.



That's because you live in a desert, do they have water in Arizona?


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## Vajramusti (Jan 26, 2016)

Yes. some- but it is a challenge at times.
We get the water that California, agribusinesses, utilities
and golf courses dont use up


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## guy b. (Jan 26, 2016)

geezer said:


> I saw Joy's post. I didn't read that. Anybody else read that?
> 
> Actually, I was a little confused . It was something about these:
> 
> You know, I've never ridden one of them _see-do_ thingies.



What did you read?

It doesn't seem to say much to me.

Is it a kind of clever in-joke?



Vajramusti said:


> n wing chun-Ip Man left for Macau and then Hong Kong.Even though a couple of his early disciples were left behind IM took much with him.
> Neither WSL or HKM thought that any good wing chun was left on the mainland.



Understand this bit. WSL and HKM thought no wing chun left in China. Ok



> Then with videos you see the see-do versions.



What's a see-do version? I would guess a wing chun made up fro watching someone else do wing chun. Is this what Joy means and what is the point? Is it that Joy thinks WSL and HKM correct in their assumptions? See-do versions from where? China? HK?



> But then even in the UK and US video watchers seem to abound.



Would assume this means Joy is saying that lots of people copy these made up wing chuns? Again from where, China or HK? I can think of potential examples from both places.



> I am just sharing a view point.



What is your point of view? Post is about as clear as mud.


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## geezer (Jan 26, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What is your point of view? Post is about as clear as mud.



I read the same post as you Guy, and think you understood it pretty much the same way I did. So anyway, ...ever ride on a "Sea-Doo"? Looks more fun than a red boat. But less room to train long pole.


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2016)

I think Joy was rather straight forward with his statements.

I got that he was forwarding what was WSL's and HKM's view that there was no good wing chun left on the mainland.
Also that in todays culture because of videos there is now an abundant amount of video watchers who's wing chun is but from videos..., It is happening in China, the UK, and the U.S. From his point of view. (probably in more places than listed)

So be discerning about where your information come from as well as what that information is.


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## guy b. (Jan 27, 2016)

Danny T said:


> I think Joy was rather straight forward with his statements.
> 
> I got that he was forwarding what was WSL's and HKM's view that there was no good wing chun left on the mainland.
> Also that in todays culture because of videos there is now an abundant amount of video watchers who's wing chun is but from videos..., It is happening in China, the UK, and the U.S. From his point of view. (probably in more places than listed)
> ...



What I didn't get from the original comment was whether Joy was particularly stressing that made up from video versions of wing chun are a problem of those branches originating from China, e.g. Yik Kam, Kulo Village

I think there are certainly issues with some of these branches, which have probably been worsened by various parties attempts to retro fit history back onto wing chun following YM move to HK and apparent lack of concern over accurate history. Some Chinese wing chun I have seen looks pretty awful to be honest. I could believe in some cases that it was made up after watching video in order to please the tourists.

For HK wing chun I would say the problem is more one of high % of students from the 50s to 70s attempting to cash in and start teaching without having much idea of what to do


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## Vajramusti (Jan 27, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> The thing to always take into consideration on mainland china, pre-mao and doubly so when Mao was in power is...the nail that stands up gets pounded down.





Xue Sheng said:


> The thing to always take into consideration on mainland china, pre-mao and doubly so when Mao was in power is...the nail that stands up gets pounded down.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct. And re the Cultural revolution many folks do not understand it's impact on many things including the martial arts.


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## guy b. (Jan 27, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Correct. And re the Cultural revolution many folks do not understand it's impact on many things including the martial arts.



Effect devastating, got it. Which branches of Chinese wing chun do you identify as worthless made up cr@p please? And on what basis?


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## geezer (Jan 27, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Effect devastating, got it. Which branches of Chinese wing chun do you identify as worthless made up cr@p please? And on what basis?



We don't allow "fraud busting" on this site. Joy's post made no such allegations, so please stop this line of questioning. Frankly, it's trolling.


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## guy b. (Jan 27, 2016)

geezer said:


> We don't allow "fraud busting" on this site. Joy's post made no such allegations, so please stop this line of questioning. Frankly, it's trolling.



Well he's hinted pretty obviously in that direction and frankly I'd prefer to know what he thinks rather than guess. Are you saying that rumour and whispers is ok but openly stated opinion not ok? If so why, what is the difference?

I haven't made any fraud busting allegation and I didn't make the thread.


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## Marnetmar (Jan 27, 2016)

guy b. said:


> You are saying that all of the pin sun, kulo, yks and other wing chun that has been creeping out of the woodwork in various places is made up by watching YM wing chun and that real wing chun died in China?



Not really what you're talking about, but the Kulo/Pin Sun guys have been shown to be guilty of showing Yip Man WC to non-villagers several times under the guise that it was what they actually practiced.


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What I didn't get from the original comment was whether Joy was particularly stressing that made up from video versions of wing chun are a problem of those branches originating from China, e.g. Yik Kam, Kulo Village


You are correct he didn't say that at all.



guy b. said:


> I think there are certainly issues with some of these branches, which have probably been worsened by various parties attempts to retro fit history back onto wing chun following YM move to HK and apparent lack of concern over accurate history. Some Chinese wing chun I have seen looks pretty awful to be honest. I could believe in some cases that it was made up after watching video in order to please the tourists.


So now you have made a comment about some main land wc parties have certain issues. Which parties and what issues specifically are your referring to?



guy b. said:


> Effect devastating, got it. Which branches of Chinese wing chun do you identify as worthless made up cr@p please? And on what basis?


He didn't refer to any branch of as being "_worthless made up cr@p_"...those are your words not his.


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## guy b. (Jan 27, 2016)

Danny T said:


> You are correct he didn't say that at all.



He hinted strongly in that direction (it would have to be that way if wing chun effectively died in mainland China and yet exists today)




> So now you have made a comment about some main land wc parties have certain issues. Which parties and what issues specifically are your referring to?



Careful buddy, we aren't allowed "fraud busting" on this site. I was warned for making a comment very similar to the one you just made. Wouldn't want to see you get banned.




> He didn't refer to any branch of as being "_worthless made up cr@p_"...those are your words not his.



Just attempting to cut to the chase, but don't worry I see that insinuation is the way to make allegations here. Direct statements not appreciated


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## mograph (Jan 28, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Which branches of Chinese wing chun do you identify as worthless made up cr@p please?





guy b. said:


> Just attempting to cut to the chase, but don't worry I see that insinuation is the way to make allegations here. Direct statements not appreciated


"Which branches of Chinese wing chun do you identify as_ ineffective_, please?" would be a direct question_._


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## ivanr (Jan 29, 2016)

geezer said:


> ...So did you study a branch of Yip Man Wing Chun before? And now you follow a mainland instructor? Why not share a little about yourself and your experiences?



Hi geezer,

yes, i have started to the end of 80s with Yip Man Hong Kong style and now since end of 90s i am learning wing chun and some other skills in China. After that i NEVER came to idea to learn outside, because it is same as if you want to explore life of tigers and you do it in ZOO..

No doubt, we have super skilled and respected Sifus outside of China, no doubt.
But roots of kung fu are still in China...

greetings, IR


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## ivanr (Jan 29, 2016)

KPM said:


> Ivan is probably more well-traveled than Sergio!  It would be great to hear some of his insights and experiences with mainland Chinese instructors.  How about it Ivan?  I know you spent a lot of time with Wong Nim Yi?  Who else have you studied with?  Thanks!



Hi KPM!

No, no, no - Sergio sifu moved to HK to research wingchun, he traveled to Taiwan, Vietnam, etc. I am stuck in China only...

Yes, i am student of Wong Nim Yi sifu and Leung Wai Choi sifu - thoose are my SIFUs. All anothers taught me only on friendly base. To mention all the names (different Yip Mans students, Sam Nangs students (Sam Nang himself i have met twice only), different other wingchun lineages sifus, ... ) need long list and I do not want to flaunt .

My basically most immportent experience is, you have to live with your Sifu "his life" to learn from him. Not some "classes", "seminars", etc.

On one of my first visits in Guangzhou with Sifu Wong Nim Yi, it was so that I sold my house in the Czech Republic and moved for quarter into an apartment to Sifu and his family, it was actually my third visit over there. After that he started to teach me, not only show me... Because i was all the time available..

greetings, ir


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## geezer (Jan 29, 2016)

Dang, Ivan, sounds like you are definitely living the (Kung-fu) life!!!  

So apparently you are Czech, and obviously speak English too. Have you also learned Cantonese?


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## ivanr (Jan 29, 2016)

geezer said:


> Dang, Ivan, sounds like you are definitely living the (Kung-fu) life!!!
> 
> So apparently you are Czech, and obviously speak English too. Have you also learned Cantonese?



Hi,
yeah, Czech. My english is bad, never study that, but enough for simple conversation. Same my cantonese and chinese. Basic knowledge of cantonese are there, in my opinion absolutely necessary. Or chineglish  !


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## dudewingchun (Jan 31, 2016)

ivanr said:


> Hi,
> yeah, Czech. My english is bad, never study that, but enough for simple conversation. Same my cantonese and chinese. Basic knowledge of cantonese are there, in my opinion absolutely necessary. Or chineglish  !



Wow so you met Sum Nung himself twice ? What was your experience thoughts on his skill ? Everything I have heard about him makes him out to have been very very very good. Like Ip man level good if I was to use a scale.


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