# Aikido 10th Dans



## Cthulhu (Feb 6, 2002)

Quick question...

Are there any living aikido 10th dans?  If so, are any of them non-Japanese?

Thanks,

Cthulhu

PS - this is to clear up what I think is someone's questionable rank


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## Rubber Ducky (Feb 6, 2002)

AFAIK the best way to check this is to use a resource like "Who's who in Aikido" from Aiki News.   If you go to www.aikidojournal.com and search around a bit.  I did a search through their encyclopedia and came up with very few 10th dans, none of whom were non-Japanese.  

Keep in mind that just because you don't find the person you are interested there, it doesn't mean they aren't "legitimate".

However, I think you do know that if it stinks it might be rotten 

Pierre


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## Cthulhu (Feb 7, 2002)

Well, I couldn't find the answer at the site Ducky provided (thanks, by the way), but I did find something here:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/10dan.html 

Looks like the only non-Japanese 10th dan is suspected of promoting himself.  Looks like the rank I suspected was fraudulent actually is.

Should I call this guy out on it?

Cthulhu


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## Yari (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *
> 
> Should I call this guy out on it?
> ...



I would say it's depending on what the problem is, and at which level. But you could ask him personally? Just ask since you couldn't find anything about him, how he's got that grad? Could be a style that uses the word Aikido, and there isn't anything wrong in that.

On the other hand I would call the bluff if I felt for it, so maybe it's more of a personal call than anything else.


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## Rubber Ducky (Feb 7, 2002)

What's the payoff on "call[ing] this guy on it"?

If every self-promoted 10th dan in the martial arts was  called on it, there'd be a lot more noise in the MA community 

Pierre


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## arnisador (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/10dan.html
> *



I must be somewhat suspicious of this site. From that page:


> Amos Parker - 8th dan - Yoshinkan - but he isn't white. He's black.



Isn't this a rather unprofessional comment or is there some context or inside joke that I'm missing?


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## Rubber Ducky (Feb 7, 2002)

Arnisador, I'm going to make a guess here:

The AikidoFAQ is a website put together largely (I believe) from the annals of the Aikido-L mailing list.  A lot of the stuff is verbatim from the emails that were passed along - sometimes with the context removed.  It's quite possible that a thread was going on on the list that specifically mentioned White 10th dans, or White high ranking Aikidoka and the comment about Amos Parker's skin colour was made in that context.

Regardless of its "professionalism" the AikidoFAQ website remains an excellent source on information about Aikido.

Pierre


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## Cthulhu (Feb 7, 2002)

I don't want to 'call the guy out', per se, but merely inform him that his rank is most likely unearned and that he should stop making such claims.  If not, then I'd be more than happy to let everyone in on the truth. 

Cthulhu

Then again...is it REALLY worth my time?


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## arnisador (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Then again...is it REALLY worth my time? *



Unless you believe he's doing harm, probably not. Logic isn't likely to work--what options would that leave you? Embarrassing him? Threatening him with exposure? Threatening him physically? It seems like a potentially unpleasant situation.

On another note, I do understand now that the AikidoFAQ web site is taken from a list so the words used should perhaps not reflect on the site owner.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> Unless you believe he's doing harm, probably not. Logic isn't likely to work--what options would that leave you? Embarrassing him? Threatening him with exposure? Threatening him physically? It seems like a potentially unpleasant situation.
> ...



Well, he could potentially be doing great harm to his students by way of poor instruction.  The only thing I would really be able to do is threaten him with exposure, anyway.

Like I said earlier, time that could be better spent with my own (legitimate) training.  

Cthulhu


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## Yari (Feb 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I don't want to 'call the guy out', per se, but merely inform him that his rank is most likely unearned and that he should stop making such claims.  If not, then I'd be more than happy to let everyone in on the truth.
> 
> Cthulhu
> ...



I could say .... peace of mind...
You would know that he knows that you know, and
you would be able to tell other people about this, and say you've told him. By telleing him, your not talking behind his back...

/Yari


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## arnisador (Feb 17, 2002)

Some of the 10th dans at http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/10dan.html were promoted by the IMAF and some by the Aikikai, it says. What is the significance of this distinction?


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## Chiduce (Mar 29, 2002)

> _
> 
> *Some of the 10th dans at http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/10dan.html were promoted by the IMAF and some by the Aikikai, it says. What is the significance of this distinction? *_


_ The Aikikai is the world governing organization in the  Aikido  Ideals of O' Sensei. The Aikikai is headed by Moriteru Ueshiba and provides instructor rank and certification in  Aikido. The IMAF is the Independent Martial Arts Federation which is headed by Soke Robert Shook! The IMAF represents all styles from Aikido to Ninjutsu etc,. It also offers the Head Master/Founder Certification of the new founder of their own martial art system. The 10th Dan Yoshio Sugino is the Headmaster/Founder of the Katori Shinto Ryu Aikido System and was conferred 10th Dan by the IMAF according to the requirements and qualifications for the Headmaster/Founder Certification. I will also, when i get my manual finished for my new system test for the same certification. Yet i will be several ranks down as founder! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!_


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## Humble artist (Sep 3, 2002)

I believe this Amos Parker case just means that he is only black person that has yet gained that rank.
I believe there are no big fakes in aikido community,ranks should not be a given and since there are only over million practitioners,fakers should quickly be called upon.
It is also important to notice that to gain a very high rank (like even 7th.dan) one must also develop the way of the art universally and bring more light into it,as like to let people know about it more.


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## Caine (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> Isn't this a rather unprofessional comment or is there some context or inside joke that I'm missing? *



If it`s the thread that I`m thinking (There was a thread a while back discussing none Japanese white shihans or some such title), someone added Amos Parker to the list and made the distinction that he is not in fact white. The cut you show takes it out of context, I don`t believe that the person making the comment was in any way being offensive as I believe that he is a student of Amos Parker.


Just a few noodles for thought

Caine


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## wlinton (Nov 4, 2002)

Perhaps a way of looking on this topic would be to compare it to another profession.  Would anyone out there believe in the legitimacy of a person who claims that they are one of the world's leading medical doctors if their licensure was issued by a dental school?
     Aside from legitimacy, the teacher would demonstrate their skill in how they teach, and in how they live. If this teacher of Aikido is good as a martial arts teacher, and as a community leader, then who cares?  If they are not clearly a great teacher and person, then that is what makes them a real fraud.  
    If this teacher is lying about his/her qualifications, then they are at least technically a fraud, and should be rebuked for it.  The martial arts community does not need to be politically correct in such matters.  People may be injured or killed as a result of bad teaching.
     Getting back to the comparison.  If I were a medical doctor, I would not claim that I was anything but that.  The Aikido World Headquarters issues rank in Aikido.  Anyone who claims rank that is not issued by the headquarters does not hold rank in Aikido.  Just because one of my past instrucors also held rank in Judo does not give me a "right of connection" to claim that I hold rank in Judo, even though some of Judo's technique was taught to me.
Did this other sensei receive blessings from the headquarters to branch off?  If no, then it is not "Aikido."  If he holds rank from the headquarters, he is a student of Aikido.


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## SET_Coo (Nov 21, 2002)

I think i heard my sensai say once that to become a tenth dan, you dont really even test, its more of an honor type thing, so i doubt that an american could brcome 10th dan.


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## phoenix277 (Dec 6, 2002)

i can tell u this dude that there is no 10th dans in the uk


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## streetwise (Feb 4, 2003)

Not sure about Aiki, but isn't 10th dan in many styles just a "Head of Family" thing? If he is not claiming to be 10th dan in an organization that you know, what difference does it matter what rank he carries? Who promoted O-Sensei in Aiki? Who promoted Jigoro Kano in Judo? Train, study, don't worry so much!

If I start a style tomorrow, in THAT style, I can give myself whatever rank I want, WHO CARES!! In arguments about who is "ranker", nobody wins.


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## Angus (Feb 13, 2003)

Well, that's just the problem. 10th dan is something that implies a very intense understanding and devotion to a particular martial art, something that should take a lifetime and longer to obtain. However, too many people are giving themselves 10th degree black belts and starting their own "styles" (like the 22 year old mentioned in black belt magazine  ), and it has entirely cheapened the meaning of the degree. That's what most people find "rank", if you get me. I don't think it just implies head of family or whatever, because there are plenty who are the "head" of a style by hereditary succession, but are not the highest degree of belt in the system, nor anywhere near sometimes. It's come to mean that elsewhere, which doesn't seem right to me.


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