# More lessons learned while facing "the gun"!!!



## BLACK LION (Jul 16, 2009)

Recently we added "stressors" to our training by going "hot" on our training firearms. This has afforded us zero room for error or doubt.  
It also allows us to be shot dead countless times and ressurect ourselves to correct our mistakes and move on.   

I would like to share a couple of things I recently learned the hard way.  

1.  When face to face with an attacker with a pistol and a two handed grip, never strike the firing hand or arm. Doing this will definately ensure the trigger is pulled and you are shot point blank.  Instead strike the opposite arm or non-firing arm.  Make sure you are targeting the nerve and make sure you are striking and pushing to the outside always... against the natural bend in the arm( na for 2 had grip as strikes are always to the outside due to absence of natural bend). Upon striking you should be projecting into thier base and pushing them off balance simultaneously. 

This however does not apply to the 2 handed grip from the rear as you are relying more on a rotation and simultaneous deflection to strike the arm off track and not necessarily a dedicated thrust as done face to face.  

2. When face to face with the threat and the muzzle is pressed on your flesh it is best to go neutral and get them talking while creating a few inches of space before agressing the forearm strike and projecting through thier base.  If you attempt to agress face to face with the muzzle pressed to your flesh it will get hung up when you try to move and you will be shot.   Now I am not saying to create distance persay, merely unclog the muzzle of your clothes and meat before getting in there and getting to work. 

Here again, this doesnt apply when faced from the side or rear becuase the "push", "rotation" and deflection are more on your side and more effective becuase of the angles.

You would not be able to determine these things without projectiles coming at you. Going off air, audible click or using "blue guns" as guages is IMO less effective or in a sense shortchanging the results.  


Thanks guys, watch your clocks out there.


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## K831 (Jul 21, 2009)

I appreciate the thoughts posted. Some of the force on force training/ CQC with a pistol courses I have done have really added a lot to what I was already doing, lots more to learn though!


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jul 22, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> Recently we added "stressors" to our training by going "hot" on our training firearms. This has afforded us zero room for error or doubt.
> It also allows us to be shot dead countless times and ressurect ourselves to correct our mistakes and move on.
> 
> I would like to share a couple of things I recently learned the hard way.
> ...


 
 Striking the gun arm and going for a nerve is pretty iffy when you actually have someone stick a real gun in your face, it seems way to fine motor skill to me.

 Are you also getting your body/head off line as you do this?


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## BLACK LION (Jul 22, 2009)

Correct. Its simultaneous.
 From neutral position get them to talk(ask them what they want). I also like going "whoa" "whoa" "whoa" and then ambushing them. Depends...some people fein complete fear and copitulation then ambush... I also found that if they are talking, responding or interacting they are not shooting.  
Strike arm(similar to side block) while rotating off line(poa/poi) and projecting behind the muzzle into thier base and the next target.   You must keep your structure consistent from start to finish. Striking the arm target and rotating and projecting behind the muzzle keeps them from re-indexing the muzzle onto your position...by the time they realize what happened they have already been dumped and broken.  

The arm strike is target specific and in no way intended to be a parry or deflection... It is intentionally done to deaden the arm and knock it off line completely... Always striking against the natural bend for ideal results.


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## Carol (Jul 22, 2009)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> Striking the gun arm and going for a nerve is pretty iffy when you actually have someone stick a real gun in your face, it seems way to fine motor skill to me.



Its iffy for anyone that doesn't practice that kind of strike.  Nerve strikes are a developed skill, not a spur-of-the moment flail.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 22, 2009)

To add to it... its not fine motor skill. The striking arm is braced to the body foundation by keeping the elbow tucked into the ribs, striking and moving as one unit.  It becomes a large muscle movement. There is no swing or arc at all only from the hip and torso rotation... its more of a push strike than anything.


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## still learning (Jul 22, 2009)

Hello, In a real sitution?  ....do it right..survive....do it wrong...you lose...

One chance in real life?   .....off course every sitution will be different...and trusting your intincts...(know if he is going to shoot or NOT?)......only the shooter knows?    ...trust your intincts..or feelings on this before..reacting..

Adrenline, different enviroment...complete stranger....blooding pumping...mine going in many directions?  .....CAN YOU REACT CORRECTLY?

Aloha,  guns do not kill...?  ....most likely the bullet will!

Self-defense against the bullet? ...stay of out the line of fire!!


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## Carol (Jul 22, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> To add to it... its not fine motor skill. The striking arm is braced to the body foundation by keeping the elbow tucked into the ribs, striking and moving as one unit.  It becomes a large muscle movement. There is no swing or arc at all only from the hip and torso rotation... its more of a push strike than anything.



Yup.  The strikes are mechanically sound.  In addition to providing physical defense, they are done to the nerve to impede the reaction of the threatening limb.  Nothing magic about it but, like any kind of combat movement, it takes practice to do effectively.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 23, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yup. The strikes are mechanically sound. In addition to providing physical defense, they are done to the nerve to impede the reaction of the threatening limb. Nothing magic about it but, like any kind of combat movement, it takes practice to do effectively.


 
I agree completely.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 23, 2009)

We literally had to practice getting shot in order to get it mechanically sound.  If something is missing it could compromize everything.


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## K831 (Jul 25, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> We literally had to practice getting shot in order to get it mechanically sound.  If something is missing it could compromize everything.



That's what is so great about force on force with an airsoft gun. You really realize how easy it is to miss something and get shot. It takes  a lot of the "I'm Rambo" out of guys in class for the first time. Even a lot of the Millitary/LEO guys with real experience come through and realize they haven't trained that much close quarters technique with a firearm. 

It's the same in the edge weapons courses. Using a marker or a chalk knife opens a lot of peopls eyes. 

Good stuff, thanks for the post.


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## prokarateshop (Oct 25, 2009)

are there any videos posted anywhere? I would be curious to the various techniques


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## jamz (Oct 25, 2009)

Very interesting read, thanks!


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## First Action (Oct 25, 2009)

Its a bit off subject as in probally wouldn't be the case in point blank range, but I heard that when facing a handgun, if you just run then 9 times out of 10 you are unlikely to get shot, whether it is because its hard to shoot a moving target with a handgun (which I have actually found is quite true, especially if compared to a rifle) or whether they just won't shoot. This is apparently according to the FBI or some similiar organisation. Any merit in this?

www.FirstAction.com.au
www.freeselfdefencetips.com


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 28, 2009)

First Action said:


> Its a bit off subject as in probally wouldn't be the case in point blank range, but I heard that when facing a handgun, if you just run then 9 times out of 10 you are unlikely to get shot, whether it is because its hard to shoot a moving target with a handgun (which I have actually found is quite true, especially if compared to a rifle) or whether they just won't shoot. This is apparently according to the FBI or some similiar organisation. Any merit in this?
> 
> www.FirstAction.com.au
> www.freeselfdefencetips.com


 
 To bank on that is to die.

 If you do run, zig and zag in a irratic fashion, strait  running makes it easy to ut some rounds in your back.


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## BLACK LION (Dec 10, 2009)

Running is an option but it depends on the distance and any available cover.  A half moon or crescent angle is the best bet.   You may have to run to close distance so you can engage efficiently or you may have to run to increase distance so you can egress.


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