# Is America A "Christian Nation?"



## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

Is America A "Christian Nation?"

Was it founded on "Christian Faith?"

These questions came up for me (again!) on another thread, and I thought Id share some of my answers.

At the time of the Revolution, the population of what would become this country were either immigrants from, or the children of immigrants from places where the state controlled the church, and, in some ways, vice versa. In England, there had been the Church of England-which persecuted other sects-the Puritans come to mind, because the Puritans wound up doing the same thing to others in _New_ England. In France thered been the Catholic Church, which persecuted Protestant Hugenots who would emigrate to the U.S.....and so on. 

At the time of the Revolution, as near as we can tell,_ less than 20% of the population of the 13 colonies actually belonged to a church._ Part of this might have been due to remoteness. In some places, where people had settled to avoid or escape religious persecution (which became something of an American tradition, but I digress) there might be one church for the town, and all would attend. In others, there might not be any, and in still other places, like New York City, there might be quite a few.

In any case, as has been said time and again, the Founding Fathers might not be recognized by many of the Christians of today as "Christians" themselves-they were, in spite of membership in various churches, often for purely social reasons, mostly _deists_: they believed that the universe has a Creator, and that _he really doesnt care about us at all._ They all had mixed and complicated feelings on religion, and churches.

Thomas Jefferson, a Unitarian Universalist, in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence, wrote_ All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable."_ *Congress* changed that phrase_, _increasing its religious overtones:_ "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights."_ 

Among his many accomplishments, Jefferson compiled an abridged New Testament, one consisting solely of the words of Jesus. He denied the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, though. Some Jefferson quotes:



> "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
> _- to John Adams, 1803 _
> 
> 
> ...


 
James Madison, author of the Constitution and Baptist (interestingly, it was the _Baptists_ who were instrumental in securing the "separation of church and state"), had these things to say:



> The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.
> -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
> 
> It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others.-_On Religious Liberty_


 
John Adams, our second President, hero of the Revolution, and sometime Episcopalian, denied the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and had these things to say:



> The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity
> 
> "Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"
> 
> "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."


 
You can look for yourself, almost all the Founders, Ben Franklin to Aaron Burr to George Washington (who was well known for attending the Episcopal church with his wife in New York, but pointedly getting up from his seat and leaving at the consecration of the Eucharist) go on in a like vein about organized religion, Christianity, and the nature of God. The Founding Fathers, and our country, were products of the European Enlightenment, and free thought-not Christianity, or any other religion.


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## Nolerama (Jan 21, 2009)

Maybe the Founding Fathers thought of Christianity as another tool to control the populace; kind of like organized sports and Velveeta.

I kid... But I might be kidding correctly if this conspiracy theory is true...

Actually IMO, America is a "Christian" nation; especially in the eyes of the world.


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## Archangel M (Jan 21, 2009)

I would say our nation has "Christian roots", from the Puritan pilgrims onward. And a gallup poll from 2004 stated that 8 in 10 Americans identify with some from of Christianity. 

Is Iran an "Islamic Nation"? If the majority of the population is Islamic I would say so.

I think a better question would be "Is America run by a Christian government?"


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## Ramirez (Jan 21, 2009)

interesting post Aaron, although I would argue that Western society mores is based on the Catholic Church (well really Roman mores) hence the US is part and parcel of that,  and therefore the US is mix of the Jewish mores mixed with Roman mores.  

I am not up on US history, but would US founders be influenced by the growing secularism in France around the Revolution?


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Maybe the Founding Fathers thought of Christianity as another tool to control the populace; kind of like organized sports and Velveeta.
> 
> I kid... But I might be kidding correctly if this conspiracy theory is true...
> 
> Actually IMO, America is a "Christian" nation; especially in the eyes of the world.


 

Interestingly, most of the founders also saw the _value_ of organized religion-as part of a social fabric, as supporting learning, and yes, as a means of....._communicating_ morals to a populace that might not be as educated as they were.


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## Nolerama (Jan 21, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Interestingly, most of the founders also saw the _value_ of organized religion-as part of a social fabric, as supporting learning, and yes, as a means of....._communicating_ morals to a populace that might not be as educated as they were.



You're most likely right.

I'm operating under the assumption that founding fathers were also influenced by the same aliens that built the pyramids.


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## thardey (Jan 21, 2009)

Ethically, America identifies with Christianity, but I don't think the Bible has ever been a foundation for American culture.

That is, our culture and ethics are still based primarily on secular thinking. Where that thinking lines up with what the Bible defines as "ethical" is covenient for Christians, but appealing to the Bible as an authority for influencing culture or law has never really been successful.

If you can include the Bible alongside secular reasoning, then that is a bonus for a large part of the population, but that's completely different.

But our culture isn't designed around the Bible, and it doesn't give it any real authority for influencing ethics and thought, so I would say that America never really was, and certainly isn't now, a "Christian Nation."

It's a secular nation that has a lot of Christians in it.


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## Archangel M (Jan 21, 2009)

thardey said:


> But our culture isn't designed around the Bible, and it doesn't give it any real authority for influencing ethics and thought, so I would say that America never really was, and certainly isn't now, a "Christian Nation."
> 
> It's a secular nation that has a lot of Christians in it.



True. But how far do you think a "nation with a lot of Christians" will allow the government to sway away from Christian beliefs?


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## thardey (Jan 21, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> True. But how far do you think a "nation with a lot of Christians" will allow the government to sway away from Christian beliefs?


 
It depends on how many Christian believe that they live in a "Christian Nation!"


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## Archangel M (Jan 21, 2009)

I dont think its that easy. If a political candidate is on a platform that a popular religion supports he will get elected. If a candidate sways too far from the popular religions beliefs he will be out. The government was designed to keep the gvt out of religion or passing any laws regarding it but its undeniable that religion can influence it.

The government CAN pass laws regarding sex, reproduction, alcohol, and basic human interaction. Religious belief is almost the only thing it cant get involved in, but religions influence is tied into all those issues. Its a very complicated interaction in a fairly new government as far as nations go. Im not really passing judgment on the "right or wrongs" of it.


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## Joab (Jan 21, 2009)

Is America a Christian nation? Well, no. It has a lot of Christians in it and has a strong cultural infleunce from Christianity, and certainly a lot of the laws come out of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, but it was founded as a secular country under God by Deists primarily. With the popularity of pornography, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, materialism, hedonism, and the like I would say if it really was a Christian nation its not a very good Christian nation. Strong infleunce, yes, but a Christian nation no-unfortunately, I wish it was. A good Christian nation that is, a more moral nation, yes, but not a sectarian nation, there will always be different interpretations of the Bible.


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## terryl965 (Jan 21, 2009)

I would have to say Yes, it is in the eye's of the world. We all know perspection is all that matters.


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> I would have to say Yes, it is in the eye's of the world. We all know perspection is all that matters.


 

It would appear that we are to the eyes of much of the country as well. I know that to *not* be a Christian in this country pretty much gives the impression that it *is* a "Christian nation," but I'm really not sure, except perhaps demographically, what that signifies, and if it actually _means_ anything at all.

I mean, demographically, China is the largest "Christian nation" of all....:lfao: Is a nation of Christians, in fact, a "Christian nation?"

More to the point, what about the perception of "Christian" today-both within the country and in the greater world, "Christians" are defined, more and more, by what they stand against, rather than what they stand for-is that what anyone wants?

I mentioned the Baptists pushing for separation of church and state-they did that because they believed that God's authority came from people-that the people give God authority. Not to priests, and that God's authority doesn't come from priests, or the government-and they had been persecuted for that belief.

My second question still stands, though-are we founded upon "Christian faith" and/or "Christian principles?" If so, which ones?


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## terryl965 (Jan 21, 2009)

I would say Christian principles, I do not believe that this country was a faith base driven way for all that came here.


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> I would say Christian principles, I do not believe that this country was a faith base driven way for all that came here.


 
And again, I'd ask, which ones?


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## Archangel M (Jan 21, 2009)

http://www.forerunner.com/mandate/X0007_Americas_Christian_H.html



> 1620  The Mayflower Compact, written by the Pilgrims before they set foot on this land, stated, In the presence of God, Amen. We  do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves into a civil body politic.
> 
> 
> 1638  The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut (often called the first American Constitution) said, [We] enter into a combination and confederation together to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which we now profess. It also stated for the first time that mens rights come from God, as later stated in the Declaration of Independence.
> ...


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 21, 2009)

elder999 said:


> ...I know that to *not* be a Christian in this country pretty much gives the impression that it *is* a "Christian nation,"...



It's certainly reflected in the Presidency


It was a big deal that John F. Kennedy was the first Catholic President
It was a big deal that Ronald Reagan was the first divorced President
It was a big deal that Al Gore's running mate, Joe Lieberman, was Jewish
It was a big deal that Mitt Romney was a Mormon
It was a big deal that Barack Obama's heritage was partly Muslim
Americans have become more interested in the specifics of their Presidents' religious beliefs and practices in my lifetime. That, I suspect, has been part of the rising tide of fundamentalism, and has less to do with the President's party affiliation. By way of an informal observation, it seemed to me that there was a media scrum every time President Clinton emerged from Church with his bible in one hand and Hilary Clinton in the other.

I think it's become virtually impossible to function in politics in the USA without consciously communicating your religious values to constituents.


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.forerunner.com/mandate/X0007_Americas_Christian_H.html


 

I'd point out that I've already posted how the Declaration was edited to say "endowed by their Creator," and it's *not* a governing document, though it is *the* founding one. Unlike the Mayflower compact....

Abraham Lincoln killed a proposed "Christian Amendment" to the Constitution, declaring the nation's fealty to Jesus. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a President who made many religious pronouncements while sitting as President, prior to Carter, anyway......


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## tellner (Jan 21, 2009)

That wasn't what the revolutionaries who started it or the monied elites who engineered the coup we call "The Constitutional Convention" wanted. They knew that an Established Church was nothing but trouble. Besides, many of them were *shudder* Free Thinkers. This was in stark contrast to the murderous ****-sticks who founded places like the Massachusetts colony and the colonies that referred to "The Cess-Pit of Rhode Island" because R.I. didn't have an Established Church. 

The treaty that ended the war with the Barbary Pirates stated that the United States was in no way a Christian nation. In spite of the fact that a large segment of the population could always be relied on to do just about anything if the tribal shamans waved Jesus and the cross it never officially became one. The only religious observances to be banned by law were the LDS's polygyny and the the Sun Dance.

Part of the reason used to be the Baptists. Up until the Age of Reagan and Falwell they were adamantly in favor of the separation of Church and State. Then they got a taste of political power and real influence and did a 180. They started calling for the abolition of Separation at about the time they started loudly trumpeting the knew initiative to make sure Jews knew about Jesus. Power corrupts. 

When Utah was independent it was certainly a Christian theocracy. But that question was settled pretty convincingly. Looking at some of the laws in that State you'd think it still was, but that's another discussion.


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## searcher (Jan 21, 2009)

This is just my take on things, we started off as a Christian nation and most of our laws and freedoms are based on Christian principles(read the Declaration and the Constitution), but we have slipped  very far away form staying a Christian nation.   I think that as the atheist movement grew along with globalization, we have slipped away from God.   We have been blessed over the years because we were a Christian nation, but IMO, we are about to have God remove his blessings from us.   This will happen unless we get back to the Christian roots that made this country great.


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## Ramirez (Jan 21, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> It's certainly reflected in the Presidency
> 
> 
> It was a big deal that John F. Kennedy was the first Catholic President
> ...



I believe it was Richard Dawkins in his book the God Delusion that pointed out that perhaps one member of the senate and the congress in the US will admit to being an atheist, yet polls of higher education from which most of the members of those houses are drawn from have agnostic/atheist belief as high as 40% (or around that number, I can't recall the exact statistic).


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2009)

searcher said:


> this is just my take on things, we started off as a christian nation and \most of our laws and freedoms are based on christian principles(read the declaration and the constitution),
> 
> .


 
*which ones????!!!!*


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 21, 2009)

Sorry and I don&#8217;t mean to interrupt and I have little to add but I do believe of all the so called developed nations 
(or it could have been world powers) on the planet America is considered the most puritanical and bases more on religion than most if not all. There is an article out there on this somewhere but I cannot find it.

EDIT

These are not the articel I read but it is saying the same thing

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167



> Religion
> 
> Religion is a significant part of the culture of the United States. The United States is one of the most religious developed nations in the world. According to a 44-nation survey by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, religion is more important to people in the US than to those in other industrialized nations, second to only Ireland.
> The largest group of self-described religious participants in the United States are Catholics, followed by Baptists. The First Amendment guarantees right to freedom of religion. It also ensures that the government does not act in the interest or disinterest of religion.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 21, 2009)

I mean no insult to anyone of deep faith but if you let religion get too entangled in the reins of power you're just asking for trouble.

Over here in England, we don't have such a problem because the office of the head of the Church of England is embodied in the sovereign. That neatly keeps the church out of the day-to-day running of the House of Commons and altho' present in the House of Lords, the non-secular members have the sense to confine their contributions to the practical.

Any nation that begins to think that 'God' directs it's steps is on the slippery slope.


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## jarrod (Jan 21, 2009)

every so often i run into someone who tells me that the ten commandments are the basis for our laws.  i usually ask them to point to the laws prohibiting lying, adultery, excessive coveting, & failing to honor thy father & mother.  

jf


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## Ramirez (Jan 21, 2009)

searcher said:


> This is just my take on things, we started off as a Christian nation and most of our laws and freedoms are based on Christian principles(read the Declaration and the Constitution), but we have slipped  very far away form staying a Christian nation.   I think that as the atheist movement grew along with globalization, we have slipped away from God.   We have been blessed over the years because we were a Christian nation, but IMO, we are about to have God remove his blessings from us.   This will happen unless we get back to the Christian roots that made this country great.



Are you serious?  I think the US is a more religious nation than it was 25 years ago, for eg. the number of people that are creationists is likely greater than the 60s.


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## Ramirez (Jan 21, 2009)

jarrod said:


> every so often i run into someone who tells me that the ten commandments are the basis for our laws.  i usually ask them to point to the laws prohibiting lying, adultery, excessive coveting, & failing to honor thy father & mother.
> 
> jf


hmmm....that might not be so far from the truth....Western mores might be based on Jewish mores, or perhaps Roman based with Christian hence Jewish mores. 

Perhaps the historians on the board might be able to tell us whether Western law is more influenced by Roman law, or Roman law which was incorporated into Christianity, or perhaps Jewish laws which influenced Roman laws through adoption of Christianity as the state religion by Constantine.

 I really don't know, I would be interested to find out though.  Anyone?


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## seasoned (Jan 21, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Is America A "Christian Nation?"
> 
> Was it founded on "Christian Faith?"
> 
> ...


 
We have got to be a Christian nation, or else why is there a big push to take God out of everything. As it stands now, we are only half what we use to be, as a nation. Some one, or some thing, is working very hard to diminish this even further. It is up to each individual to turn his face toward God, then the national will be healed. Sorry about the soap box, but you did ask. J


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## tellner (Jan 21, 2009)

searcher said:


> This is just my take on things, we started off as a Christian nation and most of our laws and freedoms are based on Christian principles(read the Declaration and the Constitution),



Sorry, but you're absolutely 100% wrong here. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are not even vaguely Christian documents. 

God isn't mentioned except in one phrase in the most Deist sense, "Nature and Nature's God".

God, let alone Jesus isn't invoked anywhere. This puts it radically outside of everything from Royal Pronouncements to the Magna Carta to the Mayflower Compact and the founding documents of the colonies.

We have a radically _anti_-Christian notion. The government doesn't receive its authority from God. Instead it derives its "just powers from the consent of the governed". 

There is no Established Church. Such things were standard in Christian countries. Wars were fought over which Church got to lord it over the others. The Bill of Rights specifically forbids such a thing.

What's more, where the franchise and government office were confined to Protestants, Catholics, C.O.E. or some other sect in England or various colonies, the fundamental law of the land explicitly says that "no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust".

So you see, you are completely wrong. There is no Christian content in either of the most important founding documents of the United States of America. This was a conscious repudiation of the very notion of a Christian nation. It flew in the face of a thousand years of the Divine Right of Kings and ecclesiastic authority wedded to secular rule.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

seasoned said:


> We have got to be a Christian nation, or else why is there a big push to take God out of everything. As it stands now, we are only half what we use to be, as a nation.




I don't always agree with the big push to take God out of everything. On a case by case basis, it sometimes makes sense, it's sometimes nonsense. It usually has nothing to do with "God" one way or the other. 

While I don't agree with your estimation ("half") we are diminished as a nation because that is the nature of things. Nothing more.



seasoned said:


> Some one, or some thing, is working very hard to diminish this even further.-


 

Hmmm. Who could it be, I wonder? Could it be......

Nope, not even gonna go there. :lfao:

This nation is in no way founded upon "Christian principles."And no one has bothered to tell me which ones they think it *is* founded upon so far....interesting.

According to scripture,, believers are to be wary of *"all mortal powers.*" Their home is the kingdom of God, which transcends all earthly things, not any particular nation-state. The Psalmist advises believers to _"put not your trust in princes."_ The author of Job says that the Lord _"shows no partiality to princes nor regards the rich above the poor, for they are all the work of his hands." _Before Pilate, Jesus says, *"My kingdom is not of this world."* And if, as Paul writes in Galatians, _*"there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus," *_then it is difficult to see how there could be a distinction in Gods eyes between, say, an American and an Australian. In fact, there is no distinction if you believe Peters words in the Acts of the Apostles:* "I most certainly believe now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is welcome to him." *

In fact, the argument could be made that the U.S. was founded upon _pagan_ principles, but we'll just leave it at its founding being based upon secular principles. I'm not certain that any of the Christians of today would recognize the Founders as Christians in any sense of the word, if they could sit down and "witness to them."

More to the point, it's a government  _"Of the people, for the people, and by the people"_-not in"Jesus's name", not in "the name of God", not even "under God."


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 22, 2009)

http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id9.html

I think the founding fathers did believe in some sort of Christian value but I think for the founding fathers they were not set in dogma and religion to them was a double edge sword. Ben Franklin wrestled with morality and prostitution.


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## elder999 (Jan 22, 2009)

At its foundation, our American revolution was un-Christian. I have a hard time seeing how our government could have been founded on Christian principles, when its very founding violated one:



> Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 1 Peter 2:13-14​


No matter how you cut it, the founding fathers were revolting against the King of England. It should be remembered that Peter wrote these words while Israel was suffering under the domination of government far more oppressive than England ever was. In fact, compared to current taxes, our forefathers had nothing to complain about.

What Peter wrote seems perfectly clear and unambiguous; furthermore, it is consistent with what Jesus said about his kingdom not being a part of this world (John 18:23 and 36). 

As a Christian, it would be very difficult to justify armed revolt against any ruler. Passive resistance to injustice and evil, as embodied in the concept of civil disobedience, however, does have Scriptural precedent ,as for instance in the case of the early Christians described in Acts 5:28-29: 



> "We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood." ​


Peter and the other apostles replied: _"We must obey God rather than men!"_ 

Civil disobedience means obeying a higher, moral law, but willingly suffering the consequences of your actions and submitting to the authority of those in power to arrest or even kill you for your disobedience. Peter and the others were arrested, and many of them were ultimately martyred. But they never participated in violent protest, nor did they resist those in authority by violence.


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## seasoned (Jan 22, 2009)

elder999 said:


> [/size]
> 
> I don't always agree with the big push to take God out of everything. On a case by case basis, it sometimes makes sense, it's sometimes nonsense. It usually has nothing to do with "God" one way or the other.
> 
> ...


 
You are right less would be a better word then half. And, yes the devil does make us do it.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 22, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> 1776  The Declaration of Independence says, We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness  That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men  



This was prior to Hume and Kant casting doubt on the argument from design, and Origin of the Species was not published until 1859, prior to that the idea that a creator existed was pretty much standard, however did not necessarily imply Christianity.  Many of the founding fathers where Deists, or otherwise rejected organized Christianity in favour of what they saw as a more "rational" understanding of God.


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## teekin (Jan 22, 2009)

elder999 said:


> It would appear that we are to the eyes of much of the country as well. I know that to *not* be a Christian in this country pretty much gives the impression that it *is* a "Christian nation," but I'm really not sure, except perhaps demographically, what that signifies, and if it actually _means_ anything at all.
> 
> I mean, demographically, China is the largest "Christian nation" of all....:lfao: Is a nation of Christians, in fact, a "Christian nation?"
> 
> ...


*
* 
Elder, you must know WHY the Baptists took this stand and why they were persecuted for it. The power politics between church and nobility/state began with the clan leader and the local shaman. The history of European Church-Ruling Body leads me to think that America was founded as a Counter Culture. More of a statement against what they saw as corrupt and wrong with European political and religious landscape. Can counter culture be founded upon something or are it governing principles dictated by what it is reacting against?
lori


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## Natty (Jan 22, 2009)

I don't look at America strictly as a "Christian Nation."  The founding fathers wanted to keep church and state separate, to keep a balanced government. When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Deceleration of Independence with the assistance of John Adams, two of the philosophers work that they used in the important document was Thomas Hobbs and John Locke. Both Hobbs and Locke denied God existed. About twenty percent of America are Christians. Another twenty percent don't believe in God. The other religions are split up among the remaining sixty percent. Christianity may appear as the main religion due to politics, but, it really is not.


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## Archangel M (Jan 22, 2009)

Actually the founding fathers wanted to keep the federal gvt out of religion. Bact then the idea of the federal gvt was somewhat different than what we have today. That was the basis of the Civil War...


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## jarrod (Jan 22, 2009)

Ramirez said:


> hmmm....that might not be so far from the truth....Western mores might be based on Jewish mores, or perhaps Roman based with Christian hence Jewish mores.
> 
> Perhaps the historians on the board might be able to tell us whether Western law is more influenced by Roman law, or Roman law which was incorporated into Christianity, or perhaps Jewish laws which influenced Roman laws through adoption of Christianity as the state religion by Constantine.
> 
> I really don't know, I would be interested to find out though. Anyone?


 
historically, we have by & large inhereted the greco-roman legal tradition, heavily influenced by ideas about natural law such as put forth by philosophers like john locke.  

but it's worth noting that while mores change from culture to culture, the fundamentals of morality are almost universal.  meaning no society is going to permit behavior that is largely anti-social.  the big crimes like murder & theft are prohibited in every society, although the definitions & punishments change.  

constantine's adoption of christianity really raised a whole lot of issues that christianity was not intended to address.  for example, there is matthew 23:33-36, which predicts the end of times to be witnessed by the generation to whom jesus was currently preaching.  with such a short term vision, primitive christianity was not really concerned with long-range government planning, or even involvement really.  the failure of the end of times to occur coupled with constantine's legitimization of christianity forced the religion to change from its original form.  

so i think it may be more accurate to say that roman society shaped christianity rather than vice versa.

jf


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## jarrod (Jan 23, 2009)

seasoned said:


> We have got to be a Christian nation, or else why is there a big push to take God out of everything. As it stands now, we are only half what we use to be, as a nation. Some one, or some thing, is working very hard to diminish this even further. It is up to each individual to turn his face toward God, then the national will be healed. Sorry about the soap box, but you did ask. J


 
actually many goverment references to god were added well after america's founding. "in god we trust" wasn't printed on money until the civil war, when religious sentiment was at it's highest so far in our history. the motto began appearing on some coins during that time, but wasn't added to paper money until 1957. 

likewise the pledge of allegiance did not include the phrase "under god" until 1954 when the knights of colombus lobbied for it's inclusion. so the present push for removal of religious references from public life aren't a reaction against the ideals of the founding fathers, but a reaction against 19th century revivalism.

jf


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## teekin (Jan 23, 2009)

jarrod said:


> historically, we have by & large inhereted the greco-roman legal tradition, heavily influenced by ideas about natural law such as put forth by philosophers like john locke.
> 
> but it's worth noting that while mores change from culture to culture, the fundamentals of morality are almost universal.  meaning no society is going to permit behavior that is largely anti-social.  the big crimes like murder & theft are prohibited in every society, although the definitions & punishments change.
> 
> ...


 
I think In the beginning this is very true but as the church and state became intertwined it was they,the church and state who shaped society. More so the Church as that was whom had intimate and immediate contact with the people. And then " who will rid me of this meddlesome priest" heads rolled, Abbeys burned and the king once again had control. This was the Nobility's contribution to the Reformation.
 This translates nicely into the people having control in a democracy. GW babbling on about God and aligning church and state is going backwards. 
This is way way off topic Jarrod.
lori


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## jarrod (Jan 23, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> I think In the beginning this is very true but as the church and state became intertwined it was they,the church and state who shaped society. More so the Church as that was whom had intimate and immediate contact with the people. And then " who will rid me of this meddlesome priest" heads rolled, Abbeys burned and the king once again had control. This was the Nobility's contribution to the Reformation.
> This translates nicely into the people having control in a democracy. GW babbling on about God and aligning church and state is going backwards.
> This is way way off topic Jarrod.
> lori


 
oh i don't know that it's _that_ off topic; it helps us to understand exactly what we mean by "christian nation".  debating roman state vs church is sort of a chicken or the egg debate.  but i think it's worth noting that prior to the romanization of christianity, the church & state didn't resemble each other very closely at all.  but constantine was sort of the original GW, he did an excellent job of manipulating religious sentiment to fit political ends.  which of course is dangerous on both ends...the religious institution finds itself comprimising in order to win state acceptence, & civic life finds itself unable to function without at least some religious sanction.  any concept of a christian nation originates in rome. 

jf


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## elder999 (Jan 24, 2009)

Many well-meaning Christians argue that the United States was founded by Christian men on Christian principles. Although well-intentioned, such sentiment is unfounded. The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not "Christians" by any stretch of the imagination. 

Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity. However, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that _[ "the fool says in his heart, there is no God."_ Our founding fathers were not fools, but the Bible also says_"You say you believe in God. Good. The *demons* also believe and tremble." _

*Merely believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian. *


Perhaps, it might be beneficial to remind ourselves of what a Christian might be: it is a person who has acknowledged his or her sinfulness, responded in faith to the person of Jesus Christ as the only one who can redeem him, and by so doing been given the Holy Spirit.

The early church summarized the Christian message in six points: _
1. Jesus came from God. 
2. You killed him. 
3. He rose again on the third day. 
4. He sent the Holy Spirit 
5. Repent and be baptized. 
6. He's coming back.​_​An individual who would not acknowledge this much of the Christian message could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be called a Christian. The majority of the  founding fathers of this country did not acknowledge this message. In fact, they denied it. 

Certainly it is generally the case that these people believed in God, but it was not the God of Christianity. Deism began in the eighteenth century and was very popular in America. According to the dictionary, it was "a system of thought advocating natural religion based on human reason rather than revelation." Jefferson wrote that the religious doctrines of Jesus that he accepted, and which he regarded as consistent with his deistic perspective were three: _
1. that there is one God, and he all-perfect: 
2. that there is a future state of rewards and punishments 
3. that to love God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.​_​Why do Christians want the founding fathers to be Christians? 
Is it because they wish the best for these people? 
Hardly. 

It is because they hope that by demonstrating they were Christians, they can justify their political agenda. Rather than wanting something new (the injection of Christianity into government) they seek to restore something they imagine has been lost.

Reality: nothing has been lost. It wasn't there to start with. Therefore the whole concept of "taking back America" or "restoring America to its Judeo-Christian values" is a lie. America was _never_ a "Christian nation."


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## elder999 (Jan 25, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> Elder, you must know WHY the Baptists took this stand and why they were persecuted for it.


 
Yeah, I do.

Some Christians are currently arguing that the concept of separating church and state was not in the minds of the founding fathers, and that it is a recent and pernicious doctrine that is the result of Supreme Court decisions in the 1950's and 60s. 

This simply isn't true. 

Separation of church and state is not something the Supreme Court invented in the 1950's and 60's. The phrase itself appears in a letter from President Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, on Jan 1, 1802. 

The Baptist Association had written to President Jefferson regarding a _"rumor that a particular denomination was soon to be recognized as the national denomination." _Jefferson responded to calm their fears by assuring them that the federal government would not establish any single denomination of Christianity as the National denomination. He wrote:_ "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State."_

Notice the phrasing in the U.S. Constitution, Article VI, paragraph 3: 



> The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; _but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. _(emphasis added)


 
The concept of the separation of church and state appears in the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message (a revision of an earlier statement where it also appears) adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention: 



> God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. _Church and state should be separate_. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. _The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work_. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power. (emphasis added).


 
Look at what Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, had to say about religious freedom in the 17th century. He was a Baptist persecuted for his faith who argued for the separation of church and state nearly a hundred fifty years before Jefferson. 

The Church and State need not be, Williams insisted, inextricably linked:_ 'A Pagan or Antichristian Pilot may be as skillful to carry the Ship to its desired Port, as any Christian Mariner or Pilot in the World, and may perform that work with as much safety and speed.' 'God requireth not an Uniformity of Religion to be inacted and inforced in any Civill State,' _he declared._' Rather, the tares in the field of Christian grain must be left alone; let man hold whatever religious opinions he chooses provided he does not 'actually disturb civil peace,'_ ran a provision of the Rhode Island Charter of 1663;let civil government be based on the consent of the governed._ 'The Soveraigne, originall, and foundation of civil power lies in the People,' _Williams insisted. They_ 'may erect and establish what forme of Government seemes to them most meete for their Civill condition.' _

William's plea for Separation of Church and State stemmed far less from tender concern for men's consciences than from _'a fear that their unity meant the government of the Church by civil men and thus a threat to its purity.'_ Popular control of the Church through elected magistrates Williams thought evil since it gave the Church _'to Satan himself, by whom all peoples natural are guided.' _The precise intention of Scripture could not be ascertained, he believed, with the icy certainty claimed by the New England clergy. He wanted Church and State separated so the Church would not be corrupted by the State. 

Thomas Jefferson entertained the opposite conviction, fearing that the State would become contaminated by the Church.

In his tract on the topic of religious toleration Williams madesome important points: 



> ...Fourthly. The doctrine of persecution for cause of conscience, is proved guilty of all the blood of the souls crying for vengeance under the altar.
> 
> Fifthly. All civil states, with their officers of justice, in their respective constitutions and administrations, are proved essentially civil, and therefore not judges, governors, or defenders of the spiritual, or Christian, state and worship.
> 
> ...


 



Grendel308 said:


> The power politics between church and nobility/state began with the clan leader and the local shaman.


 

Not...._really._ Typically, in tribal society their roles were complimentary, and each knew and stayed within their assigned tasks, and worked together in consultation-unless they were the same person, and then there was no conflict. Life was simpler in tribal societies, though, generally speaking, and there wasn't much that would necessitate such conflict. In later societies, of course, there was....


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## duckman (Jan 25, 2009)

its the christian right, people like cheney who are in the way of things getting better


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