# mma ground work for the street



## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

Mma is a constantly evolving art with many useful applications for self defence. The inclusion of striking adds a different detention and changes the tactics.

Striking on the ground has become a high percentage way of finishing a fight and if undefended can lead to some pretty horrific injuries.

So I thought I would post some methods to deal with that.

The principles that I will apply and is by no means that the only method is this.

Win the scramble. 
do what you need to do to to not wind up underneath someone on the ground. The addition of punching makes top positions increadably dominant 

Get up, sweep,submit.
In that order if you are underneath you need to work to your feet if you can. If you can't then try for sweeps then try for submissions. This is especially important in self defence where controlling you position can reduce environmental risks.

So I just thought I would open a platform to explore the mma method.

Or avoiding this in the street which cannot be good for a person.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tEV7Ttg93Xo


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

The shoulder post and standing from guard.

So you have not applied principle 1 and wound up underneath. Hey it happens. And self defence is about being adaptable. At least you have guard.

So don't muck around down there jump back up to your feet. The more you try to escape the more they have to defend that. Which means they have less opportunity to hit you. And being hit by a guy on top sucks.

This is one of the easiest to learn methods in my experience. The shoulder post.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RmHveOzyEtc


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

Now the person on top may wish to keep you on your back to do this he needs to apply top pressure. To defend top pressure you can apply the scissor sweep.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zbP-OT2_98

To defend the scissor sweep the person on top has to sit back creating space. And making it easier for the shoulder post.

So learning both of these defences forces the other guy to give you opportunities to escape.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Win the scramble.
> do what you need to do to to not wind up underneath someone on the ground. The addition of punching makes top positions increadably dominant
> 
> Get up, sweep,submit.
> In that order if you are underneath you need to work to your feet if you can. If you can't then try for sweeps then try for submissions. This is especially important in self defence where controlling you position can reduce environmental risks.



I'd tweak this just a little bit.  My order of operations goes as follows:

1) Avoid being taken down.
...if that fails...
2) Try to win the scramble to either get back up or reverse the attacker before he settles into a top position
...if that fails...
3) Know how to survive on the bottom.  All my escapes, sweeps, and submissions won't help me if I get knocked out before I can apply them.  If I haven't already achieved guard, then that may be part of the survival process.
...then...
4) Try to escape to my feet or sweep/reverse my opponent (it's situationally dependent as to which is preferable. Usually getting to the feet is top priority, but sometimes sweeping/reversing first is the quickest way to manage that.)
...if that fails...
5) If I can't regain my feet or reverse my opponent, then I can try a "submission" from the bottom. (Of course in a real self-defense situation it isn't really a submission as there's no tap out.  My aim is to either choke my opponent unconscious or else break a limb and then use that advantage to get back to my feet and escape.)


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## ballen0351 (Mar 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Striking on the ground has become a high percentage way of finishing a fight and *if undefended *can lead to some pretty horrific injuries.


if undefended will land you in jail as well in many states no matter who started the fight.



> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tEV7Ttg93Xo



not sure that's a great example of ground and pound since he was out before he even hit the ground.  all the strikes after he fell were a straight up assault and your going to jail here.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> if undefended will land you in jail as well in many states no matter who started the fight.
> 
> 
> 
> not sure that's a great example of ground and pound since he was out before he even hit the ground.  all the strikes after he fell were a straight up assault and your going to jail here.



I'm don't know that drop bear was advocating the use of ground & pound to inflict serious injury against a non-defending opponent on the street.  (At least not so far in this thread.)  I think he was pointing out that it is a very effective tactic that a street assailant can use and therefore he was offering some methods for defending against it.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd tweak this just a little bit.  My order of operations goes as follows:
> 
> 1) Avoid being taken down.
> ...if that fails...
> ...



Yeah I will be getting to a takedown defence. There is a lot of misconception about that.

As far as order. I will introduce the concept of.

The horns of the delema.

The idea is you grab one horn you get stabbed by the other. Grab the other horn you get stabbed by the original one. So if the sweep or sub is there take the thing.

All of these rules I am going to introduce are flexible. They are more designed to create a structure to work on.

By the way I won't really fight for guard if I am caught in say a side control. Again if it is there sure.

But normally I will fight to stand up or create a 50\50 scramble. Knees turtle etc.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 11, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm don't know that drop bear was advocating the use of ground & pound to inflict serious injury against a non-defending opponent on the street.  (At least not so far in this thread.)  I think he was pointing out that it is a very effective tactic that a street assailant can use and therefore he was offering some methods for defending against it.



yep your right I read it wrong


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## MJS (Mar 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Mma is a constantly evolving art with many useful applications for self defence. The inclusion of striking adds a different detention and changes the tactics.
> 
> Striking on the ground has become a high percentage way of finishing a fight and if undefended can lead to some pretty horrific injuries.
> 
> ...





drop bear said:


> The shoulder post and standing from guard.
> 
> So you have not applied principle 1 and wound up underneath. Hey it happens. And self defence is about being adaptable. At least you have guard.
> 
> ...





drop bear said:


> Now the person on top may wish to keep you on your back to do this he needs to apply top pressure. To defend top pressure you can apply the scissor sweep.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zbP-OT2_98
> 
> To defend the scissor sweep the person on top has to sit back creating space. And making it easier for the shoulder post.
> ...



Sounds like a solid plan to me!   I've always been of the mind that some solid training in the basics is better than nothing at all.  I agree with what you said, although while I'm of the mind that I wouldn't prolong my time there, as Tony said, if the opportunity presents itself for a submission, I'd take it.  Of course, as he said, no taps in the real world, so a break it is.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

MJS said:


> Sounds like a solid plan to me!   I've always been of the mind that some solid training in the basics is better than nothing at all.  I agree with what you said, although while I'm of the mind that I wouldn't prolong my time there, as Tony said, if the opportunity presents itself for a submission, I'd take it.  Of course, as he said, no taps in the real world, so a break it is.




It is about controlling your position. That way you get to choose if you go to ground and for how long. Rather than letting him choose.

Look there are circumstances where you might want to hold a guy down.

Warning. Swearing and butt crack.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVeI6WXtmeI

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsbJByfmgU


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

Defending that double leg

Sprawl and cross face are the generally accepted best method. The double leg thrown well is a lot faster and a lot more reliable than people give it credit for. It is also generally timed so the person has less chance to defend it.

A double leg thrown from across the room would give you an opportunity to knee or sidestep. One thrown as a counter to your punch not so much.


http://www.howcast.com/videos/501845-Countering-Double-and-Sprawl-Defenses-MMA-Fighting

This upsets his structure and uses his force against him. Guillotine and downward striking suck him in making that double leg more likely to take a person down.

The guillotine to guard submission is frowned upon because you wind up on the bottom. With good guillotine defence you have handed the guy top striking which still sucks.

Obviously if you can nail the guy with a hard forearm shot go nuts.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

That guillotine is defendable. A lot of it is head position. 

Now I found this video which I don't use some of those methods. Just breaking their guard seems a bit unrealistic. I tend to keep the guillotine hand high head position grab that armcand then work out. Understand that holding a guillotine is hard work over any length of time.

What I do like about this video is it starts to use pressure points which I am an it of a fan of when using ground work.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vT4IlwfOIks

The bas rutten version and how it becomes hard to defend that takedown by using the guillotine.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C5dHoORtknk


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## oaktree (Mar 11, 2014)

When I see these videos and hear about ground work for the street I think of people trying this against people who are standing side ways reaching for their knife behind or under their their shirt. I think about people trying to dive in to do a a double leg take down or trying to reposition themselves while leaving their ribs, back upper chest exposed to getting stabbed. I think if you want to work ground work for a street encounter work it against knife attacks from the guard because how I was taught in class was to always assume the person you are up against is carrying a weapon, knows how to use it, and does not have any regard for your life.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2014)

oaktree said:


> When I see these videos and hear about ground work for the street I think of people trying this against people who are standing side ways reaching for their knife behind or under their their shirt. I think about people trying to dive in to do a a double leg take down or trying to reposition themselves while leaving their ribs, back upper chest exposed to getting stabbed. I think if you want to work ground work for a street encounter work it against knife attacks from the guard because how I was taught in class was to always assume the person you are up against is carrying a weapon, knows how to use it, and does not have any regard for your life.



Something is always exposed to a knife attack just the nature of knife.


The best way to control a knife.(and I have) is to control its point of access. There is no good reason for people to be reaching inside pockets or under shirts. 

Grip fighting is a fundimental part of ground fighting as is arm control.

Look for a knife I would recommend getting real good at kimora and Americana. Which will isolate that knife and give you some time and space to work with.

They can also be set up from a lot of different positions.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-vmJ0ohGHH4

Recognising the threat is the key here though.


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Something is always exposed to a knife attack just the nature of knife.
> 
> 
> The best way to control a knife.(and I have) is to control its point of access. There is no good reason for people to be reaching inside pockets or under shirts.
> ...


Yes something is always exposed however you try to minimize what areas especially vital organs.
I carry three knives on me if you shoot into me for a double leg take down my knife is coming out and getting you. You try to to do a kimura on my one arm
the other hand is reaching for my other knife and stabbing you. That is one reason why trying to go to the ground in a street fight can get you killed because you never know what the other guy is carrying. One of my Guro easily conceals a machete and I have not even gotten into trying to take people carrying a gun or stick. Ground fighting is great if you happen to end up there by an experienced grappler but being with someone there or trying to take them there in the first place can get you killed.


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## drop bear (Mar 12, 2014)

oaktree said:


> Yes something is always exposed however you try to minimize what areas especially vital organs.
> I carry three knives on me if you shoot into me for a double leg take down my knife is coming out and getting you. You try to to do a kimura on my one arm
> the other hand is reaching for my other knife and stabbing you. That is one reason why trying to go to the ground in a street fight can get you killed because you never know what the other guy is carrying. One of my Guro easily conceals a machete and I have not even gotten into trying to take people carrying a gun or stick. Ground fighting is great if you happen to end up there by an experienced grappler but being with someone there or trying to take them there in the first place can get you killed.



Even going knife on knife will probably wind up with you getting stabbed. I am not sure how standing makes that much safer. There just is risks involved in fighting. You minimise those risks by avoiding fights.

If I was really life or death I can turn that double leg into a spear which on a hard surface could kill someone.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzv_0eytE5I

Now could somone pull a knife out and stab me to death before I finish that?

I honestly don't know.


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2014)

> Even going knife on knife will probably wind up with you getting stabbed.


Stabbed depends where and how deep if we are talking about two people going at it with knives. However I practice Escrima and Classical sword arts so I like to think my chances of getting cut and stabbed are more lower then the other guy who does not practice how to deal with knife to knife.



> I am not sure how standing makes that much safer.


I do not mean safer I mean concealing. Standing sideways you have no idea if my back hand is carrying a machete, a baseball bat or a knife.


> There just is risks involved in fighting. You minimise those risks by avoiding fights.


I agree there are risks and that to reduce those risk is to avoid fighting. My mindset as I was taught is to assume the guy has no regard for my life at all and my goal is to survive and go home. I was taught to assume the guy has a weapon to assume the people next to him our his friends and will help him and to assume he has some sort of knowledge how to fight. 


> If I was really life or death I can turn that double leg into a spear which on a hard surface could kill someone


If it were really life and death would you really want to rush head first into something unknown. As soon as you rush in that guy could cut your head off with his machete, or pull out his knife or gun. If you ever seen real machete fights the guys do not go and rush in.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2014)

oaktree said:


> Stabbed depends where and how deep if we are talking about two people going at it with knives. However I practice Escrima and Classical sword arts so I like to think my chances of getting cut and stabbed are more lower then the other guy who does not practice how to deal with knife to knife.
> 
> 
> I do not mean safer I mean concealing. Standing sideways you have no idea if my back hand is carrying a machete, a baseball bat or a knife.
> ...




It depends on your focus. My aim is to try not to seriously injure or kill anybody generally. Because jail sucks and the police have a hard on for guys doing exactly that at the moment.

And I get banned from training if I start bashing people.

Rushing in does have its merits and for weapons people have success with moves like flying kicks but that would be for another thread.

The military has a concept on that I kind of like which is assault into ambush. The idea of an ambush is you are screwed. Going for the guy is low percentage but possibly the best chance you have. Backing away can give the guy full range of motion and time and space to deal damage.

But it is risky and you need a lot of commitment to do it.

Generally if I see the draw. I will go for them. But if they are weapon out doing figure 8s not so much.

Also on the ground I do have an extra set of limbs I can use to pin and control an arm that I don't have standing up.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It is about controlling your position. That way you get to choose if you go to ground and for how long. Rather than letting him choose.
> 
> Look there are circumstances where you might want to hold a guy down.
> 
> ...



Of course.  I don't disagree with that, however, in cases like that, how long is one going to lay there, controlling?  Until the idiot in the fast food joint gets tired, gives up and leaves?  Says he's giving up, then when he gets up, takes another swing at you?  I'm not saying any of those things will happen, nor am I saying they won't.  I'm simply saying, that prolonging the situation, for the sake of prolonging it, is foolish, IMHO.  I'd rather see the BJJ guy put the idiot to sleep rather than rolling around, holding down for however long.  But that's just me...to each their own.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2014)

As someone who trains in the FMAs, IMHO, I think that approaching anyone with a knife, and having the intent to take them to the ground, is a bit foolish.  Personally, I'd put control over the weapon arm, before I'd consider taking them down.  Grappling with a knife...certainly a good idea.  I'd have one person with the training blade on them, and during the grapple, they try to access it, and cut, stab, etc, the other person, who of course, should be working on not letting that happen.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 14, 2014)

Dose mma work on the street?  Lets consider what you are really talking about:


is this 2 people of the same size 	(height,weight,etc)

are the both sober,or is one or 	the other drunk(which one),is one high on something (which one)

is either a member of a street 	gang, a outlaw biker, military, law enforcement, etc.

Is this an isolated spot or are 	there other people around (friends of his or yours or unknown)

have you ever been in a street 	fight before, has he

do you know if he is armed  	

is this really in the street or is 	it inside a building (a bar, a bingo hall, a ball park,etc)

what happens when someone try&#8217;s 	to break it up? Do you consider them helpful or are they trying to 	help him, do you have time to even figure out why those extra hands 	are there

what is on the ground to fall on 	,roll on, that can be harmful if rolled on or used as a weapon  	

there are more things that must be 	put into the question other than dose it work


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

MJS said:


> Of course.  I don't disagree with that, however, in cases like that, how long is one going to lay there, controlling?  Until the idiot in the fast food joint gets tired, gives up and leaves?  Says he's giving up, then when he gets up, takes another swing at you?  I'm not saying any of those things will happen, nor am I saying they won't.  I'm simply saying, that prolonging the situation, for the sake of prolonging it, is foolish, IMHO.  I'd rather see the BJJ guy put the idiot to sleep rather than rolling around, holding down for however long.  But that's just me...to each their own.



The thing about controlling that situation is that you get to decide.

But is has happened as you described.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6V97Pnljj7I


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

MJS said:


> As someone who trains in the FMAs, IMHO, I think that approaching anyone with a knife, and having the intent to take them to the ground, is a bit foolish.  Personally, I'd put control over the weapon arm, before I'd consider taking them down.  Grappling with a knife...certainly a good idea.  I'd have one person with the training blade on them, and during the grapple, they try to access it, and cut, stab, etc, the other person, who of course, should be working on not letting that happen.



Knife is difficult anyway though. There is rarely a safe answer to dealing with it.

I would like to see the difference full contact striking would have on knife defence. But it would suck to be the knife guy in that drill.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Dose mma work on the street?  Lets consider what you are really talking about:
> 
> 
> is this 2 people of the same size     (height,weight,etc)
> ...



There are going to be reasons for not going to the ground. But they are not reasons for not knowing ground skills.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The thing about controlling that situation is that you get to decide.
> 
> But is has happened as you described.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6V97Pnljj7I



Absolutely!   Hey, that's one of the things I like about the grappling arts...you have a nice variety of things to pick from.  Like I said, anyone is free to do as they choose or as they see fit for the situation.  Me personally, if I were in that situation, I'd probably opt to just choke the guy out, if possible.  I liked that clip you posted though. 



drop bear said:


> Knife is difficult anyway though. There is rarely a safe answer to dealing with it.
> 
> I would like to see the difference full contact striking would have on knife defence. But it would suck to be the knife guy in that drill.



Yeah, I've seen A LOT of crappy knife stuff out there.  Fortunately, there is also some good stuff.  While it's just one example, I like the stuff from RedZone and another guy, who's name escapes me at the moment, but teaches similar stuff. 

Full contact striking vs a knife..sure, if you can overwhelm the guy with strikes...yeah, that'd probably work.  Personally, I'd rather work on limb control first, following up with strikes.


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