# White belt Sparring and Separated Rib



## demi (Jun 19, 2011)

Hello everyone,

I have a beginner question regarding sparring in Kenpo. I am new to MA and have been only practicing for one month. Right from the beginning I have had to spar with higher ranked students. (purple thru green) 

Now my sifu has stated many times that we spar to learn how to fight... I understand this completely; however, it seems like i am just a punching bag for his students to experiment on because I have no idea what I am supposed to be doing.

One week ago while sparring a green belt, I took a wicked side thrust kick to my left side rib area. Wow did that knock me back. The next day the pain was horrible and I found out I separated a rib. I was told this is common.... 

Two days later I sparred again. I focused on protecting my side. I was hit in that same spot. It was my fault, I chose to spar. The blue belt apologized and I actually was fine with that. I decided to take it easy for a week which I did. The instructor kept asking me how I was doing. I was feeling pretty good because the majority of pain was gone although I still hurt.

The following Saturday I sparred again with the Sifu. To make a long story short, he hit me in that injured area. Holy crap did that hurt, a burst of pain shot through my entire body and the F word came out really loud and then, I couldn't talk for a few minutes. He asked how I was, and I barely said, "I am fine". And I apologized for using the F word.

He told the other students that I was nursing a prior injury and that he could have finished me off easily after that hit. It was like he was showing them what would happen if you hit someone like that and get that kind of reaction like I displayed. I felt like I was there as the punching dummy again.

Basically, I am just wondering if this is common practice. I have tried to keep my story short, so I apologize if I have become long winded.

I am thinking I should look for a different school because quitting MA is not an option for me.
I also believe it is freestyle sparring that we do, and we only wear hand and shoe protection.

Any incite is greatly appreciated, Thank you.


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## poollshark (Jun 19, 2011)

First off, this is a contact sport and I do agree with having students spar from the very beginning of their training. That being said, I have a couple of questions. 
First off.....are there any students closer to your skill level? Second, when the initial injury happened did your instructor say anything to the green belt about the level of contact you guys should be aiming for? Next, are all the students sparring with this type of contact or do you feel your opponent was taking it too far? Also on the kicks you took would you say the intent was to hurt you or do you think you may have walked into them? 

My initial observations would be that after you told your instructor you had a separated rib he should not have allowed you to spar again until you were healed. Also when he sparred with you, knowing about your injury, he should have been more careful. 

Where I train we spar from the first week or 2 of training on. While we do spar all belts in our class we are matched up most of the time with opponents around our skill level. When a white belt is matched up with a brown or black belt the higher level student isn't going full speed trying to hurt the lesser skilled fighter. It wouldn't be allowed by sensei.


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## demi (Jun 19, 2011)

poollshark said:


> First off, this is a contact sport and I do agree with having students spar from the very beginning of their training. That being said, I have a couple of questions.
> First off.....are there any students closer to your skill level? Second, when the initial injury happened did your instructor say anything to the green belt about the level of contact you guys should be aiming for? Next, are all the students sparring with this type of contact or do you feel your opponent was taking it too far? Also on the kicks you took would you say the intent was to hurt you or do you think you may have walked into them?
> 
> My initial observations would be that after you told your instructor you had a separated rib he should not have allowed you to spar again until you were healed. Also when he sparred with you, knowing about your injury, he should have been more careful.
> ...



Thanks for your reply sir,

Purple is the lowest rank, and I am the only white belt. I really enjoy the sparring. As for the kick I remember I was moving away from it. And this fellow is known for his side thrust. Apparently, other students have been kicked by him before. Again, I am ok with that. I have learned to watch out for that more closely. As for the rest of the students I do believe they take it easy on me. A couple of times Sifu told them to tone it down.

I am concerned about why my sifu hit me where he did knowing of my injury. I had sparred with him two times prior on that same day and it was fine. I kept my right side toward him.


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## jthomas1600 (Jun 19, 2011)

Unless this is specifically what you're looking for ( a very hard nosed tough school with lots of live action ) I'd seriously consider looking for a new school. Every where I've trained it's common for beginners to spar with advanced students....so the beginners _don't _get hurt. The advanced students should have enough control make solid contact with out going over board. Of course accidents happen, people get hurt, that's part of MA; but brand new students being punching bags? That's not necessary. Just my $0.02 good luck.


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## Emma (Jun 19, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> Unless this is specifically what you're looking for ( a very hard nosed tough school with lots of live action ) I'd seriously consider looking for a new school. Every where I've trained it's common for beginners to spar with advanced students....so the beginners _don't _get hurt. The advanced students should have enough control make solid contact with out going over board. Of course accidents happen, people get hurt, that's part of MA; but brand new students being punching bags? That's not necessary. Just my $0.02 good luck.


I have to agree with this post.  My instructor pairs up beginners with more advanced students as they have the control (in theory) to not injure the beginners, plus the skill (again, in theory) to avoid being injured by the beginners.  Sparring is about learning and helping each other, not hurting your friends.  Because if you keep getting hurt by someone, after a while you aren't going to want to spar with them.


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## poollshark (Jun 19, 2011)

demi said:


> Thanks for your reply sir,
> 
> Purple is the lowest rank, and I am the only white belt. I really enjoy the sparring. As for the kick I remember I was moving away from it. And this fellow is known for his side thrust. Apparently, other students have been kicked by him before. Again, I am ok with that. I have learned to watch out for that more closely. As for the rest of the students I do believe they take it easy on me. A couple of times Sifu told them to tone it down.
> 
> I am concerned about why my sifu hit me where he did knowing of my injury. I had sparred with him two times prior on that same day and it was fine. I kept my right side toward him.


You should consider not sparring until you're healed or at the very least talk to your Doctor and see what he thinks. It's gonna take forever to heal if you keep aggravating it. 

I suspect the injury slipped your Sifu's mind while sparring with you and he did tell the other students to tone it down. If you like the class then stick around and keep training.

Oh yeah......and watch out for that green belt


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## demi (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for all of your replies; they made a lot of sense and answered my questions. I think I will hold off on sparring until my doctor says it's ok. As for the class, I will continue because it is fun and challenging.


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## Balrog (Jun 19, 2011)

I totally disagree with the idea of having beginners spar.  It is pretty much a guarantee for injuries, as you have found out, because they don't know what they are doing.

Let them learn some basics and do one-steps for a while to learn timing, distancing and control, then start them sparring.

I would suggest that you not spar for a couple of months and work on basics.  The only thing you're learning right now is how to get the crap kicked out of you, and that's not why you started training.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 19, 2011)

At our school students don't spar for almost a year. They _do_ learn and practice both static and dynamic drills, basics, and spontaneous activities. But they don't start actually fighting until they get to the intermediate class, and even then we train for weeks before I let them loose. During that time I teach them a number of techniques and drills specifically designed for sparring practice, you can find them with my sparring curriculum here on MT.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95583

I know some schools have beginners spar, I don't believe in it. I think it's important to learn how to stand and hold your arms and move around and strike before you get thrown into a match. But different schools teach differently. We are primarily focused on self defense rather than competition fighting and we use sparring primarily as a training tool rather than an end unto itself. Schools that focus on competition will naturally have a different approach.

More concerning to me is that your instructor had you fighting so soon after being seriously injured. A separated rib isn't life threatening, but it is painful and should be given time to heal. Even an instructor can slip and accidently hurt his students, but generally speaking safe training should be the first priority.

If this is the way your school trains, with serious injuries not uncommon, control not heavily emphasized, and training while injured openly encouraged, you may want to consider training somewhere else. I'm not saying you should, that's up to you. Some like it rough. But it only makes so much sense to really hurt yourself while learning to defend yourself.

Like I said. Different schools use different approaches. If this isn't for you, that's ok. It doesn't reflect negatively on you. It just means you may want to look for another school. But I'd talk to your instructor first. This could just be a series of unfortunate accidents that you lack the proper context to understand because you are a relative beginner. Maybe injuries are extremely uncommon and you won't get hurt again for ten years. I warn you though, no matter how lightly you train you probably will get hurt again. That's karate.

Talk to your instructor. Be honest and open about your concerns. And protect yourself. I always tell my students to listen to their bodies before they listen to my commands. I don't know where they're hurt, or what their physical limitations are day to day. You have to be the one who's responsible first and foremost for your own safety. They should be providing a safe place to train, but ultimately no one is as invested in your health and well being as you are.

Good luck. It sounds like you are at a school that teaches you how to hit hard and do damage. That's good. As long as they teach you how to protect yourself and avoid damage too. It won't do you any good to land that great punch or kick if you get stabbed to death in the process because you never learned to move or block.


-Rob


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 20, 2011)

Everyone else has said it already but if I may echo the sentiments, I'd personally be looking for a new school or at least have a serious chat (before or after class, one on one) with the instructor about the concerns you've raised about possibly being a punching bag. 

Whilst it can be great to train hard and learn how to take a hit as well as how to deliver one, it's something that needs to be worked up to at your own pace. At our school we don't use sparring, we do use free form response training from time to time it's after we've trained the actual techniques for a while. Juniors are often paired with seniors for the safety reason as mentioned but also for the skill side of things in that the seniors are expected to know the basics well enough to guide the new students and take some of the pressure off the instructor

Have a think about it and do whatever seems best to you. All the best in your training


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## K-man (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't have an issue with biginners starting slow sparring at an early stage but I would never allow a new student to spar with any higher rank who I didn't trust to have total control. None of us turn up to training expecting to be injured and in this litigious age I would be very wary of allowing the type of sparring you have described. 



> One week ago while sparring a green belt, I took a wicked side thrust kick to my left side rib area. Wow did that knock me back. The next day the pain was horrible and I found out I separated a rib. *I was told this is common*....


If this behaviour is "common", I'd be looking elsewhere. :asian:


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## Tez3 (Jun 20, 2011)

Even in our MMA classes we don't have beginners spar so full on they get injured like this, they are taught to spar slowly and with care because it's easy to get injured going full on. I find you don't actually learn very much being a punch bag either. As others have said you work up to sparring. However much you may think you enjoy such full on training after a few more injuries you may well change your mind plus if it's the sort of place that injures it's white belts are you willing to become a higher grade who will in turn injure lower belts just because you can?


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## Kacey (Jun 20, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> Unless this is specifically what you're looking for ( a very hard nosed tough school with lots of live action ) I'd seriously consider looking for a new school. Every where I've trained it's common for beginners to spar with advanced students....so the beginners _don't _get hurt. The advanced students should have enough control make solid contact with out going over board. Of course accidents happen, people get hurt, that's part of MA; but brand new students being punching bags? That's not necessary. Just my $0.02 good luck.



I agree.  Martial arts are contact sports, and bruises are to be expected... but not injuries requiring doctor's care.  We also pair the newest students up with the most experienced, specifically because the seniors should have the focus and control to _not_ injure the juniors, nor to let the juniors injure them due to lack of focus and control.

As others have said - if this is what you want, enjoy!  But consider carefully continuing with an instructor who deliberately hit you in an injured area just to make a point to other students, and who has another student who is known for the kick that injured you to begin with - the same point, that a technique can get through another's guard, can be made without that level of injury.


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## demi (Jun 20, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> At our school students don't spar for almost a year. They _do_ learn and practice both static and dynamic drills, basics, and spontaneous activities. But they don't start actually fighting until they get to the intermediate class, and even then we train for weeks before I let them loose. During that time I teach them a number of techniques and drills specifically designed for sparring practice, you can find them with my sparring curriculum here on MT.



Thank you *Thesemindz* for your sparring curriculum link... it was very interesting. 

I will be speaking with a couple different instructors about their training curriculum in the next few days. In fact, the more I research this, the more it seems like I am not being offered the curriculum, even at this early stage in my training, that compares to other schools methods and philosophies. 

My school has the sink or swim philosophy, which I do not believe in. I would like to be instructed on the basics and must practice these before I can begin to spar with someone. I feel like I am not receiving a strong foundation to build upon.

Luckily for me I am not bound by a contract, so joining another school will be easy. Even my wife said, "...this does not seem right..." 

Thank you for all your helpful replies, they are greatly appreciated. There are a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people here on MT.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 20, 2011)

Where are you from Demi? I'm not saying you should leave your school, that's a decision you have to make for yourself, but we have martial artists from all over the world here on MartialTalk. If you did decide to leave maybe someone here could point you to a school that would be more suited to your needs.

Some schools have beginners spar from day one. That isn't _necessarily _a bad thing. But if they aren't teaching you _how_ to spar you are going to spend a long time getting beat up before you start picking it up on your own. It seems a little cruel to me to take an ignorant beginner and put him into a fight against an experienced fighter, then injure him, then make him continue to fight tougher more skilled opponents while he's still hurt. Maybe your instructors are great guys and this is all out of context, I don't know who you're training with, but it does strike me as a little like beating up people weaker than you. We used to call that "bullying."

Are they teaching you anything? Or did they just gear you up and say "go!" You will learn something eventually just by taking a beating, but that's the more painful, slower, less effective way to learn how to fight.


-Rob


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## demi (Jun 20, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> Are they teaching you anything? Or did they just gear you up and say "go!" You will learn something eventually just by taking a beating, but that's the more painful, slower, less effective way to learn how to fight.



To this date I have learned: 
inward, outer, upward, lower blocks
back fist and reverse punch
basic fight stance - (that's what they call it)

and we work on the self defense techniques.

I remember the very first time he had me on the mat. He said stand where you feel comfortable in a fight. I said I really don't know. I was standing 3 feet away so I moved closer. LOL. Anyways, before I knew what had happened I felt this stinging sensation on the left side of my face. Ok I got It. I was too close. I never saw the punch coming... I just felt it. 

Two days later I was sparring. Imagine this, here I am a total noob standing in my basic fight stance without knowing how to move around in that stance. My left side facing the opponent with left arm at 90 degrees with my right arm chambered.

After about a month of this he mentioned that I was adapting rather quickly. I basically said I'm trying not to get hit. I did ask how I was supposed to close the distance and strike if I am standing so far away from my opponent. He replied," I haven't taught you that yet".

I have always walked away with something positive. That's just my nature. Although my gut feeling is that something is not right with this whole scenario.


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## jks9199 (Jun 20, 2011)

That's not the way I teach.  Depending on your background, you'll probably face someone and have a punch thrown at you within a couple of classes -- but it's in a drill environment, not sparring.  There's no point, in my opinion, in simply throwing a new student into a sparring environment with no tools or idea of what to do.  All the student gets out of that is lumps.  

I introduce free sparring in a gradual manner; the students start by practicing drills and techniques with a partner.  Eventually, they move into sparring with defined roles (offense or defense/attacker or defender).  Finally, the students will do free sparring in various formats.  Again, it depends on the students background, but this will take anywhere from a couple of weeks to several months.  I'm not out to flatter my ego by pounding students, nor am I looking to crush a student's confidence.  They spar based on their confidence and development; it's not going to be so slow that they're never taken out of their comfort zone, but it's not going to happen so fast that they never develop a comfort zone, either.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Jun 20, 2011)

demi said:


> To this date I have learned:
> inward, outer, upward, lower blocks
> back fist and reverse punch
> basic fight stance - (that's what they call it)
> ...



This seems highly unusual to me because I was given a solid foundation of basic techniques for about 5 months or so before I did any sparring, and even that was stationary sparring drills to get me used to the idea for another couple of months before moving onto actual sparring.  Where do you train here in Phoenix?  I wasn't aware of too many Kempo places except for Red Dragon and Hard Knocks Gym, but I've never visited them.  You're welcome to come by our dojo if you're in the area--we even have a sparring class tonight (and we don't beat up visitors )


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## Lee Mainprize (Jul 22, 2011)

this is wrong - no student should be sparring from the beginning. 

Even more putting them in with people who have technique and maybe no control.

Happened back in the day white belt broken nose by black belt awful!

I bet it's a small class.


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## Ray B (Jul 22, 2011)

Sempai should never score on kohai. It frustrates kohai to the point of making mistakes. Mistakes that lead to injuries. Sempai's job is to present the most perfect opportunity for kohai to practice waza.

I start yakusoku kumite at green belt. I pair experienced with inexperienced.
Free sparring doesn't happen until they earn my trust as a yudansha.

Two trusted teachers I know of in Phoenix.
Shiroma, Jiro Sensei
http://www.azmartial.com/

Delaney, Marcel Sensei
http://www.dulaneydojo.net/matrix/

Good luck.


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## threethirty (Jul 24, 2011)

I disagree with everyone that says you shouldn't spar early on, as long as it is a very controlled situation. It sounds to me like there was a lack of control in this situation, or they thought you may be tougher than you currently are. 

The first time I sparred with my Sihing I gave him a shot right to the pills because I only knew how to do a front snapping kick, and had only done it on pads about crotch level. Sparring without clearly laid out rules and expectations is dangerous for all involved. Your Sifu may have just forgotten what it is like to have new people around


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## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2011)

I don't think anyone has said that there's no place for sparring early on.  But sparring without having developed some tools or skills to use becomes either practice at being a punching bag, or practice at brawling.  What are the appropriate tools, and how long does it take to develop them?  Depends on the style, the teacher, and the student...   Depending on where I am in an instruction cycle, and the what the student brings -- it might take a couple of classes.  Or a couple of months.


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## tayl0124 (Aug 19, 2011)

The question that you may want to ask yourself is a question I am surprised no one has asked yet.  Why isn't there any other karateka under purple belt in your class??  There must be a reason.  Maybe the reason is that they didn't like being a punching bag either.


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## Supra Vijai (Aug 19, 2011)

Umm that's not always the best judge of an organization IMO. I mean with our school for instance, there are 2 classes each week in 2 different locations. The Thursday night class was always busier and had more walk ins so to speak as it is a central city location. The Tuesday night classes though are out in the suburbs and for a while (about 5 months) we had no white belts or even low green belts training. It was just mid level greens and above  - we go white, green, brown then black -  then we started getting one at a time till we now have half a dozen white belts on Tuesday night and that had nothing to do with the instructor or the school and how it operates, just coincidence.


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