# How Many Kata are necessary?



## Victor Smith (Nov 8, 2012)

How many kata is a continual discussion topic. 

IMVHO, The real issue is how does a system of training use what they have. Ive trained with great martial artists who use few kata, and Ive trained with great martial artist who have many times many kata studies in their system. I really isnt the number of kata that makes them great, just different training options.

I guess Ive studied 300 or so kata, kune, kwan or forms. In the years I visited friends schools they all taught forms so I studied and learnt what was presented. As I developed my own system of instruction for Isshinryu I incorporated few of those forms (in part) 1) to better prepare the youth student for Isshinryu instruction and 2) to honor those friends who shared with me, 3) and as movement studies for their motion potential.

Another set of forms are for various black belt studies but nothing like the number I studied..

Until after black belt the formal study of applications doesnt begin. The student has more important things to work on.such as techniques and kata. Next makawara if possible and kote-kitae in the mix. Without those the advanced study of applications are most difficult . The makawara is most important and maybe chinkuchi training too. Serious training can still be done without them but less effective imvho.

Even at that we focus on the kata of Isshinryu for application study and use the rest to attack against. Knowledge of those forms provides some knowledge as to what others may do.

IMO few kata study doesnt make you a great martial artist, nor do many kata studies. Its how you use what you study.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 8, 2012)

I have 12 traditional kata that I focus on up to 3rd dan. After that, a student can learn more kata I know or continue to develop the applications for the kata they know. I used to practice a lot more kata, but I dropped them in favor of application study. In my dojo, this begins at white belt.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 8, 2012)

In the old days it was perhaps 3--how times have changed. I know people who say they know hundreds.


----------



## SuperFLY (Nov 9, 2012)

i currently know 11 kata well, and was required to know all for my shodan grading.

now i've done that i now have to learn 6 more kata before my nidan.

it is a lot i agree, i think our particular club (shotokan) has upwards of 30 kata to potentially learn..

i like kata, it teaches you a lot about stances and movement and if you're open to it, it allows you to then re-purpose those moves into your own defences and techniques. kata imo is just a more 'fun' was of doing drills. drumming the stances, moves into your head in flowing way.

i do prefer the bunkai of them though


----------



## seasoned (Nov 9, 2012)

Multiple kata would be to teach the masses. As we close in on *our* higher rank, we need to focus on "our" kata, the one that best represents us personally and addresses our needs. Always keeping in mind that as instructors we need a wide variety of kata, only to better help our students to be well rounded.

There is a lot of redundancy in kata, there to solidify the principles within.


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 9, 2012)

I also know dozens of patterns from a handful of styles, maybe totaling 70 or more.  Out of those, I think I perform AND *understand* maybe 2 or 3 consistently to a level I am satisfied with.  And this is not false modesty either - my own sensei considers me a teacher in my own right and has told me it is time for me to learn from myself - but I know painfully well my current ceiling.

We don't need dozens of patterns as practitioners.  Only a few is sufficient if they are designed well enough, and I argue that the majority of the dan kata in established karate styles fit this requirement. We don't need 5 different H pattern sets with only the block and strikes changed in each one.  Instead of learning to perform dozens of forms, I'd rather concentrate on a few and really take them apart and be able to run them forwards, backwards, with a multitude of what-if's blended in.  Multiplicity from a single form, rather than multiple forms.  

I also think it is useful to get students into form application as quickly as possible.  They don't have to be proficient immediately.  But they should be quite comfortable with the idea that form is a gateway into actual usage of the art.  Form is not a dance.  Form is not just something you do to pass time or to gain a belt.  A kata is not something you practice merely for some abstract idea of learning good 'form'. Instead, it is the essence of the art you are trying to master and if you study kata under a good teacher, you WILL be able to fight provided you also practice physical conditioning and have constant reinforcement of the kata concepts through partner drills. These are all things I constantly stress with all my students, white belt or not.

Now I do agree that different people might have affinity for different kata, so for that reason *sensei* should know multiple kata.  To be able to teach different students, to pass on the system as was passed onto them.  But students?  Nah, though I'll admit to talking through both sides of my mouth at this point since I have yet to trash the syllabus that was taught to me, and yes in it there is the full array of kata as one progresses through the ranks.


----------



## seasoned (Nov 9, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I also know dozens of patterns from a handful of styles, maybe totaling 70 or more.  Out of those, I think I perform AND *understand* maybe 2 or 3 consistently to a level I am satisfied with.  And this is not false modesty either - my own sensei considers me a teacher in my own right and has told me it is time for me to learn from myself - but I know painfully well my current ceiling.
> 
> We don't need dozens of patterns as practitioners.  Only a few is sufficient if they are designed well enough, and I argue that the majority of the dan kata in established karate styles fit this requirement. We don't need 5 different H pattern sets with only the block and strikes changed in each one.  Instead of learning to perform dozens of forms, I'd rather concentrate on a few and really take them apart and be able to run them forwards, backwards, with a multitude of what-if's blended in.  Multiplicity from a single form, rather than multiple forms.
> 
> ...



As always, agreed.


----------



## Grenadier (Nov 9, 2012)

From a Shotokan point of view, here's what I believe works with most students:

Everyone needs the 5 Heian kata, along with Tekki.  These 6 kata help give you a good set of fundamentals, and help you refine the techniques that you'll be using when you learn the more advanced kata, such as Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Enpi, and Jion at the brown and early black belt levels.  

I also believe that all black belts should have at least two of the three kata (Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Enpi, and Jion) by the time they hit shodan.  Furthermore, by the time they've had some yudansha experience, they absolutely must have Kanku Dai and Jion, since those two are the kata that are representative of the system.  Even if Shitei kata is no longer a requirement, they're still excellent kata when used to teach power, endurance, etc., and those who want to get a USA-NKF or WKF dan ranking are absolutely going to need those two.

Bassai Dai is a great kata for teaching someone how to apply power by using the whole body, whereas Enpi is good for helping someone build up rhythm, flow, speed, and dexterity.    

Once someone has all four of those above listed kata, then they're ready to take on the more advanced ones that have a good bit of difficulty.  In my dojo, yudansha at this stage will continue learning the more advanced kata, even if it's a kata that they may find difficult to do, given various limitations.  That's fine, since there are ways to modify the kata to make it possible for them to learn, practice, and perform it, and as a result, they still gain valuable experience.  

For example, if there's a student who doesn't have much flexibility in the legs, and has a hard time jumping, that student will still learn Kanku Sho.  They'll spin on their plant foot and perform two kicks, instead of making the 360 degree jump + double kick.  There's nothing wrong with performing it this way, since they still learned the important lessons of what Kanku Sho can teach.  They won't, however, be using it for competition, instead, relying on the more power-based kata.  



For competitors:

If someone wants to compete in the regular divisions (not elite), then I'll have them specialize in two kata.  One to get him to the medal round, and one to do during the medal round.  I usually prefer that they pick one based on power, and one based on speed.  For example, something like Jion and Enpi for shodan level performers, or maybe Gankaku and Bassai Dai.  I personally use Unsu and Sochin.  

If someone wants to compete in the elite division, then he's going to need a total of 7 black belt level kata, since you have to change kata every round.  Most likely, he won't need more than 5, but you never know, since sometimes the elite divisions can be quite crowded full of highly talented folks itching to get a spot on the national team.


----------



## Gentle Fist (Nov 9, 2012)

I had close to 30 when I was involved in Kenpo, now I only have 2 so far in Judo    (Kata are not taught until BB in Judo)


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 9, 2012)

In the traditional kung fu that I train, kata is a tool to help you understand what you can do with the basics.  The basics are everything.  If you fight, you use the basics.  If your basics are strong, your fighting/self defense will be good.  What the student needs is a tool to help him understand what is possible with the basics.  A student lacks the vision to see what is possible, and the forms help him develop this vision.  Most of what is in the forms is not new.  It's just the same basics put together in different ways.  That simply shows variety, show's what's possible.  There are no secrets or secret techniques that are contained in the more advanced forms.  THere is just more examples of what is possible, with what you already know in the basics.

Once you have a strong vision of what is possible with the basics, you don't need forms anymore, and you certainly don't need to learn more forms.  It is possible to develop a good vision of what's possible without forms at all, but most of us cannot do so.  A gifted student might develop that vision after having learned just one or two forms.  Another student might need 5 or 7 before he begins to develop that vision.  I would argue that at some point, there are diminishing returns.  If you've developed that vision after 2-4 forms, then you don't really need more forms.  But if you haven't yet been able to develop that vision after learning 5-7 forms, then I doubt learning more will be of much help to you.  It might be that you simply don't have much aptitude for what you are doing, or it might be that the instruction you are receiving is not adequate to help you understand the purpose and roll that the forms play in the context of learning.  I say this all with the assumptions that the forms are well designed, and they are being properly taught and are properly understood in the context of training.

It's important to remember that the forms themselves are not magic choreography.  Simply practicing the choreography and waving your arms about does not develop any skill.  The forms are a tool used to develop a skill, and that only happens when you make sure every technique within the form is done correctly,  not that you perform the choreography.  As my sifu says, the form itself, the choreography, isn't important.  What is important is every movement within the form.  If you are thinking about "getting thru" the form, then you are just thinking about the end and none of the techniques are complete or done well.  Instead, you need to focus on every technique, one at a time, to do it correctly and completely.  That is when forms practice is valuable.

If you are practicing your forms correctly and getting value out of them, then you really do not need many of them.  That doesn't mean you cannot benefit from having some more.  But there is a point of diminishing returns, having more simply for the sake of having more and I see no value in that.  Over the years I've probably learned some 70-100 forms from several different systems.  In the past I tried to keep up with many of those, but it's impossible, there simply isn't enough time in the day and week and month to give it all the time and energy that they deserve.  In addition to that, different forms from different systems often are built upon different foundations and approach the principles in different ways.  This means that some of them might actually be in conflict with each other, in how they approach training.  It's important to pursue a training method that is consistent in how things are done.  Otherwise you train conflict into your very methods and you cannot reach a very high potential that way.

Now, I only practice the forms from one system and I've dropped all the others.

People often fail to ask themselves, is there a reason that maybe THAT form is not good for me?  Does it conflict with what I am training?  Instead, people assume that more is better, and they never consider that they are actually better of without some things.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 9, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> Furthermore, by the time they've had some yudansha experience, they absolutely must have Kanku Dai and Jion, *since those two are the kata that are representative of the system*.



Could you explain what this means?  thanks.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 9, 2012)

We have 5 to 7 core empty hand forms.  The forms contain and demonstrate important principles.  These are separate from drills or standard practice sequences and routines.  They're also separate from different exercises.  So... the Punching Routine or Drill contains 9 punches.  These can be practiced in a number of ways or different exercises.  The first form, the Point Form, uses only two of the 9 punches.  We have a number of weapon forms that teach particular ways to use specific weapons.  Then there are the Animal System, whose forms encapsulate the System and it's weapons and strategies.  By no means is the Animal Form the complete Animal System, however.

But you can (and they did) teach the entire fighting system through the drills and exercises, never learning a form.  My instructor only learned forms after training for several years...  Until then -- they learned simply to fight.


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 9, 2012)

If you look at a style like Wado-Ryu it has 50 kata.  I have read that part of that was to preserve those katas present in okinawan karate.  If you are trying to preserve something historically like that, then I think that's great.

Kanryo Higaonna taught 4 kata in his system originally and Kanbun Uechi taught 3 kata in his system originally.  It has been argued by many people that all the other katas in Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu are bridging katas that expound on a principle or idea found in one of the main katas and that there isn't really "new" stuff found in them.

So, you have two ways to look at it.

1) You only need a very few amount of kata that you have truly mastered and know inside and out and understand ALL of the principles it contains 

or 

2) You need more kata because not every student is going to be able to find the "hidden" concepts and applications on their own so they need to see examples of it in other kata so that they eventually can learn how to discover kata on their own.

In some styles they create "beginner" katas to help reinforce the basics.  If you practice a style like Isshin-Ryu or Uechi-Ryu you have preset basics that are practiced routinely to reinforce your basics and don't have any beginner katas that can be replaced or forgotten later.  If you look at the Pinan/Heian series, you could argue that you don't need them because they are parts of the other existing kata in the syllabus, OR you could say that the Pinan/Heian series is a distillation of the rest of the katas and that they are ALL you need if you truly understand them.

So, I think it is ultimately up to the instructor to be able to teach his/her students what they need and to give them the tools to help them on their own journey.  I don't think that there is a preset amount of kata that can do that (large or small).


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 9, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> If you look at a style like Wado-Ryu it has 50 kata.  I have read that part of that was to preserve those katas present in okinawan karate.  If you are trying to preserve something historically like that, then I think that's great.



Do you mean Shito-ryu?  Wado has some roughly 15 by my count if you don't count their paired exercises:  Kihon kata, Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi (only 1?), Jitte, Jion, Kusanku, Seisan, Chinto, Wansu, Rohai, Niseishi.


----------



## Manny (Nov 9, 2012)

Right now at second dan black belt I know on basic form (kicho 1) and 8 taeguks plus koryo and kungam thats 11 forms or katas and need to learn (I am into this) taebek.

My personal point of view is you don't need many katas/poomsae/huyngs, I feel more confortable in learning and PERFORMING as it should maybe 4 or 5 katas, why so much katas? 

I am not aerial or a great kicker so for example I like the taeguk 4 and 5 and 7 and 8 and like a lot Kungam, maybe if I focus on these ones I can performed very well instead of doing poorly 8 or 10 katas.

Manny


----------



## WC_lun (Nov 9, 2012)

Well I am a Wing CHun guy and we have 3 open hand forms.  For us, form is used to train concepts into the body.  Once those concepts are into the body, any extra forms would just be extranious and not useful.

Forms are a tool.  I have seen students train systems with many,many, forms and never understand the base mechanics the very first form had to teach.  I have seen other students understand basics very well before even learning the entirety of thier first form.  So I think any number answer is completelt subjective.


----------



## Victor Smith (Nov 9, 2012)

I've been at this 40 years and I hear too much short term thinking.

Aplication need power behind them to make them work.  I some Shaolin systems, Unless you are an instructor, your study moves from one form to the next and each builds on earlier skills. And they may have hundreds of foms, but you can't move forward unless toe earler ones are correct.  So the corrrect Shoalin answer is one form, the one yhoou are on.  It depends on the system of study.

There is no limit to potential.

One movement may have hundreds of uses. Again expose newer students to application potential but do not rob them of the time required for power development. I've simplified this but this is the essence of training.


For Isshinryu's kata I have over a thousand uses but no shortcuts.


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 9, 2012)

Victor Smith said:


> I've been at this 40 years and I hear too much short term thinking.



Lots of us have been at this for decades though we may not necessarily agree that one should wait until BB to start thinking about and working form applications.  This is respectfully said.



Victor Smith said:


> Aplication need power behind them to make them work.
> ....
> One movement may have hundreds of uses. Again expose newer students to application potential but do not rob them of the time required for power development. I've simplified this but this is the essence of training.



No disagreement here.  Physical and technical development are key components of making this all work.   Hojo undo, makiwara, kotikitae, sanchin, heavy bags, etc. are all integral tools for karate-ka at all levels. 



Victor Smith said:


> For Isshinryu's kata I have over a thousand uses but no shortcuts.




I daresay we all think the same about our training methods.  I don't think it is a shortcut to give students a glimpse into what the expression of their kata can be.  They might not be anywhere near actualizing what was shown, but the viewing can still be very instructional regardless.  And surely we can agree that there are levels and levels of application, some requiring less power and skill?


----------



## chinto (Nov 9, 2012)

the kata in most systems are there building on the ones before. I have trained in 2 karate systems. both okinawan and I can tell you that Kata is where you learn karate, but only with the bunkai present. you must learn the applications from the kihon up.


----------



## FullPotentialMA (Nov 10, 2012)

Is more kata good or bad?
In Shito-Ryu, there is a very large number of kata. This is good if a student really internalizes what each kata is trying to teach. More kata allows for a wider breadth of material. This could be good, but also can be bad. If the students are overwhelmed by just the task of remembering all the kata this is bad. Also, if all katas are performed in the same fashion, then much is lost. This is especially true for kata that came from different origins (e.g., Chinese root vs. Okinawan roots, Shuri vs. Naha, etc.).
Sometimes less is more. At other times, more is more.


----------



## Grenadier (Nov 12, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> Could you explain what this means?  thanks.



Certainly.

Each of the four major Karate systems (Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu) decided on two kata within their systems, to be used in the Shitei / Mandatory divisions.  The kata are as follows:

Shotokan: Kanku Dai, Jion
Wado Ryu: Chinto, Seishan
Shito Ryu: Seienchin, Bassai Dai
Goju Ryu: Seipai, Saifa

In the elite divisions for kata competition, depending on the number of competitors, you generally must do Shitei kata for your first two rounds (unless the divisions are small enough, in which case only one round of Shitei kata).  You don't have to do only your system's kata; for example, many Wado Ryu practitioners use Chinto for one round, and then Kanku Dai or Jion as their second round Shitei kata, since Seishan doesn't really show very well.  

The kata must be done as described in the mandatory fashion.  Thus, no dojo-specific variations are allowed, and failure to follow this can result in disqualification.  

This way, everyone's more or less on the same footing during those first two rounds.  The judges can focus on the quality of techniques, as opposed to fluff and buff or degree of difficulty, since all 8 Shitei kata are more or less about the same difficulty.  

After the Shitei rounds are complete, then you can choose any of the kata on the Tokui (Open) list.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 12, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> Certainly.
> 
> Each of the four major Karate systems (Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu) decided on two kata within their systems, to be used in the Shitei / Mandatory divisions. The kata are as follows:
> 
> ...



ah, so this is a competition issue.  Would you say these kata, or any kata, are really the signature kata of the system, with regard to how the system approaches combat and self defense?  

As competition kata, are these two chosen because they DO illustrate Shotokan's fundamental approach, or is it based on something else?

I'm making the distinction in my head because I do not compete and I simply see kata as a training tool for developing self defense and combat skills.  I don't think of kata in terms of competition.

thanks


----------



## rainesr (Nov 12, 2012)

Like any art the quality of instruction trumps all. I don't think the number of forms (within reason) matters.

I knew about 25+ forms in Tang Soo Do after about 8 years and really had not learned anything about them but the movements. They of course taught me some body mechanics but I really didn't understand how to use those body mechanics with the movements on an actual person. I took TSD for nearly 10 years, 90% of my knowlege came from my last two years when I found someone to teach me applications. I could have spent two years on one or two forms+apps and been better off then learning 25 or more without applications.

In Silat, what I take now, it is not uncommon to have just one to three forms in a system. The number of applications from just one form is suprising and can be very complete. Apps are taught very early on. I think one has to "feel" an application work on other humans not just the air. Forms alone do not provide that. 

I think, forms and applications are one and shouldn't be separated. Schools that rain like this are likely to have fewer forms, schools that train without applications willl likely have many forms. 


~Rob


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 12, 2012)

rainesr said:


> I don't think the number of forms (within reason) matters.



Agree!

It's not how many forms that you have learned that's important, but whether you can have a clear beginner, intermediate, and advance level training path that's important. No matter how many beginner level forms that you may have learned, it can only help you to grow "fat". It won't help you to grow "tall". We all want to grow tall and not to grow fat. Going through your elementary school 6 times won't earn yourself a PhD degree. 

Every new form that your teacher wants to teach you, you should ask him:

- What's the purpose for me to learn this form?
- If I don't lean this form, what will I miss?
- Will this form help me to grow "tall"? in which way?
- ...

After all, the purpose of form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training".


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 12, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree!
> 
> It's not how many forms that you have learned that's important, but whether you can have a clear beginner, intermediate, and advance level training path that's important. No matter how many beginner level forms that you may have learned, it can only help you to grow "fat". It won't help you to grow "tall". We all want to grow tall and not to grow fat. Going through your elementary school 6 times won't earn yourself a PhD degree.



I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree with how you are stating it here, with regards to the beginner, intermediate, advanced stuff.  I have "beginner" forms that are quite long and complex, what might be deemed "advanced" in another system.  I also have beginner forms that appear to be very fundamental, just repetious basic punches with stepping, tho there is more going on than that.  If you develop the vision to see what is possible with the material, then a good beginner form could be all you need.  Most of us need more than that before we develop that vision.  But it's possible.  So I dont' really see it that way, even tho my system does have forms that are considered beg, inter and advanced.  But Sifu has said that there is usually very little that is actually new in the later forms, it's just the same basics put together in different ways, to help you see what is possible and to gain the vision of what you can do with the material.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 12, 2012)

Some form are designed in such a way that it's easier to be learned by beginners. If we train those forms when we are 80 years old, we just refuse to gradulate from our elementary school.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 12, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some form are designed in such a way that it's easier to be learned by beginners. If we train those forms when we are 80 years old, we just refuse to gradulate from our elementary school.



I won't speak for your experience, but that would not be my experience.


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Do you mean Shito-ryu?  Wado has some roughly 15 by my count if you don't count their paired exercises:  Kihon kata, Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi (only 1?), Jitte, Jion, Kusanku, Seisan, Chinto, Wansu, Rohai, Niseishi.



Yep, mistype.  I should have said Shito-Ryu.


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 13, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some form are designed in such a way that it's easier to be learned by beginners. If we train those forms when we are 80 years old, we just refuse to gradulate from our elementary school.





> Flying Crane replied: I won't speak for your experience, but that would not be my experience.



I don't think that is true of most chinese and okinawan systems.  But, I think it is true of some japanese karate systems.  For example, the Taikyoku kata in Shotokan 





Was created by Funakoshi for beginners to start learning kata before moving on to the Heian series.





Do you really need both of these katas?  Is there information in one, that is not covered in the other?  To me, this is where there gets to be "too many" kata.  The styles that have created simplified versions of their other kata that just repeat the information contained in the original kata.


----------



## TimoS (Nov 13, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> If you look at a style like Wado-Ryu it has 50 kata.  I have read that part of that was to preserve those katas present in okinawan karate.  If you are trying to preserve something historically like that, then I think that's great.



You sure that it's Wado? Because the kata preservation sounds more like Kenwa Mabuni and he founded Shito ryu

edit: oh, that was answered already. Anyway, on topic then: personally I feel that in our system we have too many kata. We are, however, told to select and focus on maybe three that seem to fit us and practice those


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 13, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Do you really need both of these katas?  Is there information in one, that is not covered in the other?  To me, this is where there gets to be "too many" kata.  The styles that have created simplified versions of their other kata that just repeat the information contained in the original kata.


This is the main point of this discussion. You can use the same set of information to construct as many forms as you want. You are still working on the same set of information. Someone combined all his 50 forms into 1 form. I asked him the purpose behind it. He said that if he could just train this single form, he didn't need to train all his 50 forms. I then asked him if he just created the 51th form that his students willl have to learn beyond his 50 forms. There was no respond from him for my question. Again, going through elementary school class material 6 times won't earn youself a PhD degree.

IMO, the best form design should be:

1. beginner form - offense (ex, side kick)
2. intermediate form - defense and counter (ex, downward block, head punch) 
3. advance form - counter to counters, combos (ex, side kick, spin hook kick, spin back fist)


----------



## Seizan (Nov 14, 2012)

Hello Folks.

Well, I've been good for a while, but I'm back...

This is from a UechiRyu Zankyokai perspective only, so it may not apply to any other system or style.  Some may find it mildly interesting, or useful  or not...

In the basic UechiRyu system we are taught there are three original forms that came from China.  Kanbun Uechi Senseis son (Kanei Sensei) began forming the basis for more kata around 1931, as stated in the old 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon (I can supply the text location if someone wants to check it himself).  Depending on who tells the tale, there are various reasons for the creation of five additional (contemporary) forms that were officially added to UechiRyu by the early 1960s.  Regardless of the reasons cited, we now have a set of eight official forms in UechiRyu KarateDo.

Some groups within the UechiRyu-related systems add more kata now and then, for their own reasons.  One added a kata for entertainment and competition purposes (as stated in a news interview by the seniors of that association), citing a rather dynamic kata from another system that served as their model.  Others recycle techniques from the other 8 UechiRyu kata, re-sequencing previously-taught techniques.  Still others feel there is a real lack of material to teach certain concepts, and so create a form specifically calculated to develop those concepts.

Depending on how they are taught and what lessons the teacher chooses to put into them, each kata has a different purpose and reason for its specific placement within the system.  For some, these are just fillers between the real stuff (the three original kata from China).  For others, they are stepping stones to higher physical and technical proficiency.  For the Zankyokai, each kata teaches a specific element that must then be incorporated into the previously-learned forms before growth in the system can be achieved.

For example, Sanchin (1st form) teaches basic gross movements that will later be transformed into strikes and blocks, and applied in bunkai and kumite.  Kanshiwa (2nd form) teaches control of physical strength if one has it, or to develop physical strength if one lacks it.  This is then added to the Sanchin performance and is practiced until satisfactory results are achieved (strength is developed and controlled with precision).

3rd form is Kanshuu, which for us teaches timing and the relationship between upper and lower body movements, between blocks and strikes, steps and strikes/blocks, alacrity, and taking advantage of openings in the attackers movements.  This precision striking with timing relationships is then incorporated into the practice of Sanchin and Kanshiwa  we now have a new feel for those previously-taught forms.

At this stage we implement a simple bunkai for Kanshiwa, to teach timing with a partner (not real defense, but to safely initiate practice of timing-relationship between attack and defense).

Our 3rd kata is Seichin, and primarily teaches us softness (soft snappy moves with powerful grip on blocking hands, and hard impact on final strikes).  After achieving a degree of understanding in this element, it is integrated into the moves of the previous forms  we now have an all-new comprehension of the previous forms.

And so forth.  Each progressive kata teaches a different and more advanced element, instilling deeper meaning and value in the training, not just increasingly complex techniques.  Each next kata builds on the previous forms, like building a pyramid, while augmenting and enhancing them.  So we have a basic set of eight training elements, and eight kata to form a framework in which to teach them.  If we had more such elements to teach, we might have more kata.

Toyama Sensei created more forms but we do not call them kata.  We simply designate them as drill forms.  Two of these forms preserve our prearranged kumite sets as single-person training forms  both sides of the kumite are represented but as a single-person exercise, teaching a practical application to the concepts learned in the traditional 8 kata.  He also created a form using the familiar hojo undo set, much more interesting and dynamic to perform than simple repetition of the same 13 block-punch-kick drills each day.  He created a form from fighting moves and concepts taught to him by Kanbun Sensei and augmented by his personal experiences in real fighting.  But he was insistent that we do not call them true kata, only drill forms.

So, how many forms are necessary?  From a Zankyokai standpoint, a system or style needs as many kata as there are basic elements to train.  Each kata is oriented toward instilling its specific element which is then added to the understanding and performance of all the previous forms.  If we had 50 basic training concepts or elements, we might need 50 kata.  In our case, 8 is plenty.

Perhaps practitioners of systems with 30 or so kata might seek out their founders, their founders detailed histories, or those who are closest to the origins of their systems, and rediscover what training elements or lessons are embedded in each kata.  Keys might be found in the names of the kata, or in their specific placement in the traditional system.

Anyway, thats the ZKK take on number of kata.  The number isnt as important as the meaning of the kata and their position or placement in the training syllabus.

No Masters were injured or killed during the typing of this entry, but it was tested on cute little furry animals by being read aloud to them.


Regards,

Seizan


----------



## Seizan (Nov 14, 2012)

Deleted due to double-posting...


----------



## Seizan (Nov 14, 2012)

Oops, Seichin is our 4th kata.  Shows I am still a beginner.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 15, 2012)

Victor Smith said:


> How many kata is a continual discussion topic.
> 
> IMVHO, The real issue is how does a system of training use what they have. Ive trained with great martial artists who use few kata, and Ive trained with great martial artist who have many times many kata studies in their system. I really isnt the number of kata that makes them great, just different training options.
> 
> ...



Perhaps the measuring stick depends upon your reasons for training in the martial arts.  If you wish to emerse yourself in the art, enjoy all of its nuanses, delve deep into the totality yada yada, then lots of kata could/would be enjoyable.

If your reasoning is from a self-defense perspective then you only need one, as long as you know it very well.

In Mu Shin Kwan Kong Soo Do, we have only one form.  This allows us to concentrate on every usable aspect of what it has to offer.  No cookie-cutter kata where you learn a form and get a belt.  There is a saying in firearm's circles;  beware the man with only one gun because he probably knows how to use it well.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it is impossible for one person to retain so many kata in their style. I say that learn a few kata so that one can understand the templates that responds to the Habitual Acts of Physical Violence. I think that it makes things easier to put more focus on the practical applications of kata instead of mostly focusing on kata to pass gradings and win trophies at tournaments. It will benefit many students very well in their training. The old saying goes, "Three years, one kata." It's not about quantity, it's about the quality of how effective your fighting style is and also the character that you have.


----------



## Curlykarateka (Mar 6, 2013)

I know nothing really. But I always thought the point of a Kata was that almost all you need to know could be extracted from just a few.


----------



## TimoS (Mar 6, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> But I always thought the point of a Kata was that almost all you need to know could be extracted from just a few.



About right, yes. Unfortunately many systems nowadays carry dozens of kata. If I remember correctly, when Uechi started teaching his karate, he only had three kata and then the later generations added some more to the system


----------



## K-man (Mar 6, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> I know nothing really. But I always thought the point of a Kata was that almost all you need to know could be extracted from just a few.


Each kata is actually a complete fighting system. That is why there were so few taught to early students of the masters. It took many years just to properly understand one kata.       :asian:


----------



## harlan (Mar 6, 2013)

You need enough kata to keep you from getting bored and quitting.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 6, 2013)

Our curriculum has 14, but the first 8 are basic and have much redundancy later on.  Kicho hyungs 1-3, Pyung Ahn hyungs 1-5 (pinan, heian), Bassai, Naihanchi 1-3 (Tekki), Chinto, and Kong Sang Kun (kanku, kusanku).  At higher rank, we may learn others: Rohai, Shipsoo (Jitte), Jion, Seisan, Wanshu, and Kong Sang Kun Sho.  

Of the advanced forms, I personally know only Bassai, Chinto, and Kang Song Kun somewhat deeply.  I feel the Kicho and Pyung Ahn hyungs don't really count as much, since much of the Pyung Ahn forms come from Kong Sang Kun.  I haven't had the opportunity to train with anyone that knows much when it comes to Naihanchi, so I have a long way to go there.  The other advanced forms, I know the movements, but not much in terms of applications yet.. .

To me Bassai, Chinto, and Kong Sang Kun are "my" forms.  I can "own" them and express them.  Although I know I can always delve deeper into these forms.. .


----------



## Curlykarateka (Mar 6, 2013)

I was taught you should learn the movements of as many kata/forms as you can, to get a good breadth of study, then study in great depth the meaning of the kata you like best. For example I like schisochin kata, and spend my spare time practising sections of it over and over and over and over in the hope that I might glean some knowledge from the movements.


----------



## K-man (Mar 6, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Of the advanced forms, I personally know only Bassai, Chinto, and Kang Song Kun somewhat deeply.  I feel the Kicho and Pyung Ahn hyungs don't really count as much, since much of the Pyung Ahn forms come from Kong Sang Kun.  *I haven't had the opportunity to train with anyone that knows much when it comes to Naihanchi*, so I have a long way to go there.  The other advanced forms, I know the movements, but not much in terms of applications yet.. .
> 
> To me Bassai, Chinto, and Kong Sang Kun are "my" forms.  I can "own" them and express them.  Although I know I can always delve deeper into these forms.. .


Although he is not held in high regard by some here, George Dillman has an excellent DVD on the application of Naihanchi.  :asian:


----------



## OldKarateGuy (Mar 6, 2013)

I think I would agree that there is some finite number of forms which should be/could be taught. For instance, JKA says there are 26 forms within the syllabus. I'm not sure anyone is reasonably expected to know all 26 to anything near perfection (unless maybe you're a HQ instructor trainee or something. I certainly don't know them all, even superficially.). There are mandatory forms for each of dan ranks, of course. 
Someone asked in another post if Taikyoku & Heian Shodan are both necessary. I think the Taikyoku forms (and corresponding forms in other styles, like Sae kye hyungs in TSD) are just teaching instruments for acquainting new students with what a form/kata is, how it works, etc. There really are no practical (fighting) applications in Taikyoku forms. Heian Shodan, on the other hand, has some practical teaching points. I think each of the Heian/Pinan/Pyung Ahn forms has a slightly different teaching point(s) within, although remember, supposedly these were forms designed by Itosu for schoolchildren. 
I also do not think that any single form can contain the shorthand for all we need to know. Different forms teach different things, and have a completely different feeling when performed. So, at some point beyond the basics, say after 1st dan level, pick what you like and work on it. 
Someone else also mentioned learning new forms is great to prevent boredom. I agree completely. When you get in a rut with your training, pick a new form, preferably something completely away from your comfort zone and concentrate on it for a year or so.    
I suppose I may know 15 or 20 JKA forms well enough to perform one on demand, without any/much walk-through practice, although this is not to say I have any expertise in any of them. I also know perhaps a lower number of Tang Soo Do forms, although every one is a variation of forms I already learned in shotokan (which causes no end of brain freeze during performance).


----------

