# Yip Man's san sao techniques(?)



## Kwan Sau (Jan 19, 2015)

Ran across this while doing some random digging on another forum.
Wanted to paste it here to see if anyone on this forum knows anything about it? (the only thing I changed was to add numbers for each one for discussion purposes). Feedback or discussion anyone?

Here is what I found on the other forum from back in 2002:

*Yip Man 18 Sup baat San Sao ?*
_Are the Yip Man 18 Sup Baat San Sao closer to Robert Chus Gu Lao 40 point wing chun , the Gu Lao 22 point Wing Chun , the Pien San Gu Lao Wing chun , the Cho Ga 13 Sup Sams , the Cheung Bo 12 forms San Sik , or the San Sik that comes from Chi Sim Weng Chun ? 
The Sup Baat San Sao (18 Separate Hands) are believed to be a rare and informal part of the Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen system taught by the late Yip Man to some of his early students. They are typically organized as follows (though thusfar only a small sampling has been possible):

1. Pien San Choi (Side Body Punch) 
2. Pien San Tan Da (Side Body Disperse and Hit) 
3. Pien San Jut Da (Side Body Choke and Hit) 
4. Pien San Gaun Da (Side Body Cultivate and Hit) 
5. Pien San Pak Da (Side Body Slap and Hit) 
6. Tan Da Seung Chung Choi (Disperse and Hit with Double Punch) 
7. Seung Ma Lien Wan Choi (Chasing Horse Linked Chain Punches) 
8. Seung Ma Jing Gerk (Chasing Horse Straight Kick) 
9. Dai Bong Saam Gwok Pak Da (Low Bong Triangle (Step) Slap and Hit) 
10. Kwan Sao Po Pai Sao (Twining Hands Shield-Holding Hands) 
11. Bong Sao Lop Sao Jong Jeung (Wing Arm Grasping Arm Thrusting Palm) 
12. Gum Sao Saam Gwok Pak Da (Pinning Hand Triangle (Step) Slap and Hit) 
13. Gwun Ma Jin Choi (Pole Horse Arrow Punch) 
14. Seung Lop Sao Gerk (Double Grasp Hands Kick) 
15. Gaun Sao Po Pai Sao (Cultivating Arm Shield-Holding Hands) 
16. Gwai Ma Jin Choi (Kneeling Horse Arrow Punch) 
17. Huen Kao Sao Saam Go Jing Jeung Dae Jeung (Circle and Detain Arm Three Straight Palms Low Palm) 
18. Seung Ma Seung Chuen Sao Seung Chung (Chasing Horse Double Piercing Hand Double Thrust)_


----------



## KPM (Jan 20, 2015)

I don't have first-hand knowledge.  But I can tell you my impressions.  I think this is said to be an "informal" part of the curriculum because typically no one bothers to break it out and give it a fancy name.  Most of what is described on this list are simply basic drills one practices....punching with a pivot, Tan Sau with pivot, Pak Sau with a pivot, punching with a chase step, kicking with steps, etc.  I learned most of this when I was doing Ip Man Wing Chun, but we didn't group it together and give it a name.  And there were far more than 18 drills!   I can tell you this is different than the way things are done in Pin Sun Wing Chun.  Each of the formal solo sets in Pin Sun has at least three movements or techniques.  But it is interesting to see Gwai Ma on this list.  This is a stance used in most of the mainland versions of Wing Chun but no longer seen in the Ip Man version.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 21, 2015)

KPM said:


> I don't have first-hand knowledge.  But I can tell you my impressions.  I think this is said to be an "informal" part of the curriculum because typically no one bothers to break it out and give it a fancy name.  Most of what is described on this list are simply basic drills one practices....punching with a pivot, Tan Sau with pivot, Pak Sau with a pivot, punching with a chase step, kicking with steps, etc.  I learned most of this when I was doing Ip Man Wing Chun, but we didn't group it together and give it a name.  And there were far more than 18 drills!   I can tell you this is different than the way things are done in Pin Sun Wing Chun.  Each of the formal solo sets in Pin Sun has at least three movements or techniques.  But it is interesting to see Gwai Ma on this list.  This is a stance used in most of the mainland versions of Wing Chun but no longer seen in the Ip Man version.



Thank you very much for the feedback KPM! I appreciate it.
...interesting tidbit you mentioned about gwai ma though.


----------



## yak sao (Jan 21, 2015)

Though not in the pole form, I have seen LT perform gwai ma during 2 man pole demonstrations


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 21, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Though not in the pole form, I have seen LT perform gwai ma during 2 man pole demonstrations



Cool, thx yak. 
I wonder which lineages has it then?


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 21, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Ran across this while doing some random digging on another forum.
> Wanted to paste it here to see if anyone on this forum knows anything about it?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The san sik motions come from the forms.The motions help me understand and improve the motions. San sik single hand motions, then combined with punch or wu-then with turns. Then there are two handed san sik motions


----------



## wingerjim (Jan 22, 2015)

This list looks more like a Sholin form rather than Wing Shun.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> This list looks more like a Sholin form rather than Wing Shun.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


KPM said:


> I don't have first-hand knowledge.  But I can tell you my impressions.  I think this is said to be an "informal" part of the curriculum because typically no one bothers to break it out and give it a fancy name.  Most of what is described on this list are simply basic drills one practices....punching with a pivot, Tan Sau with pivot, Pak Sau with a pivot, punching with a chase step, kicking with steps, etc.  I learned most of this when I was doing Ip Man Wing Chun, but we didn't group it together and give it a name.  And there were far more than 18 drills!   I can tell you this is different than the way things are done in Pin Sun
> --------------------- Wing Chun.  Each of the formal solo sets in Pin Sun has at least three movements or techniques.  But it is interesting to see Gwai Ma on this list.  This is a stance used in most of the mainland versions of Wing Chun but no longer seen in the Ip Man version.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gwai ma is an application a situational one.It is not "eliminated"


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 22, 2015)

I agree Vajramusti. It is not gone from YPWC. Gwai Ma is alive and well in some Yip Man wing chun. Thx for your input.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> I agree Vajramusti. It is not gone from YPWC. Gwai Ma is alive and well in some Yip Man wing chun. Thx for your input.


---------------------------------
most welcome


----------



## KPM (Jan 22, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gwai ma is an application a situational one.It is not "eliminated"


Well then, let's just say it isn't practiced very often by those in the  Ip Man lineage!  ;-)


----------



## Danny T (Jan 22, 2015)

KPM said:


> Well then, let's just say it isn't practiced very often by those in the  Ip Man lineage!  ;-)


That could be stated of many applications.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

KPM said:


> Well then, let's just say it isn't practiced very often by those in the  Ip Man lineage!  ;-)



Don't understand that at all?


----------



## geezer (Jan 24, 2015)

KPM said:


> Well then, let's just say it isn't practiced very often by those in the  Ip Man lineage!  ;-)



Can't speak for others, but I use it fairly often to pin an opponent with my knee after a sweep or throw. _Gwai_ = kneeling down (as in _gwai_ jarn, the downward diagonal or "kneeling" elbow of the "WT" version of Biu Tze) + _ma _or stance. Watch the clip below. It's in French, but no problem. Je ne parle pas francais, but I do speak WC!






Now Leung Ting's Gwai-ma/kneeling stance  with the long pole that Yak referenced can be seen in the very old clip below between 4:00 and 4:30.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Don't understand that at all?



I don't either. But maybe he meant it (gwai ma) isn't "*seen*" that often(?). 
I'm sure everyones pole form looks slightly different from lineage to lineage, etc. Just like the rest of the forms. All have slight variations...right or wrong.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 24, 2015)

geezer said:


> Can't speak for others, but I use it fairly often to pin an opponent with my knee after a sweep or throw. _Gwai_ = kneeling down (as in _gwai_ jarn, the downward diagonal or "kneeling" elbow of the "WT" version of Biu Tze) + _ma _or stance. Watch the clip below. It's in French, but no problem. Je ne parle pas francais, but I do speak WC!
> 
> Now Leung Ting's Gwai-ma/kneeling stance  with the long pole that Yak referenced can be seen in the very old clip below between 4:00 and 4:30.


Yeap.
Use it a bit also Geezer. 
Know as 'Knee on Belly' in many grappling systems. Whoa, hold on now, that can't be; there's no ground work in wing chun. Oh well, it is something some of us do.


----------



## yak sao (Jan 25, 2015)

geezer said:


> Can't speak for others, but I use it fairly often to pin an opponent with my knee after a sweep or throw. _Gwai_ = kneeling down (as in _gwai_ jarn, the downward diagonal or "kneeling" elbow of the "WT" version of Biu Tze) + _ma _or stance. Watch the clip below. It's in French, but no problem. Je ne parle pas francais, but I do speak WC!



Good point. I've used that countless times as well. I never thought about it being _gwai ma._


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 25, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Good point. I've used that countless times as well. I never thought about it being _gwai ma._



It's a letter of the WC alphabet,  use it as/when needed.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 25, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> It's a letter of the WC alphabet,  use it as/when needed.


-------------------------------------------------
The knee is a very important joint in wing chun and give rise to stances, kicks,
blocks and motions. Gwai ma can be used in many ways including kneeing
a falling adversary or a downed adversary.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 25, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> The knee is a very important joint in wing chun and give rise to stances, kicks,
> blocks and motions. Gwai ma can be used in many ways including kneeing
> a falling adversary or a downed adversary.



True!!!


----------



## Marnetmar (Jan 26, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> This list looks more like a Sholin form rather than Wing Shun.



San Sik aren't actual forms, they're just repeated drills.


----------



## Eric_H (Jan 26, 2015)

Why would a set of drills that one teacher thought would benefit his students at one time 50 years ago matter that much today? Any qualified teacher should be able to come up with the same. 

Also, AFAIK, "Gwai Ma" refers to the general usage of the knee, not just a kneeling stance.


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 26, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> Why would a set of drills that one teacher thought would benefit his students at one time 50 years ago matter that much today? Any qualified teacher should be able to come up with the same.




sorry my post bothers you.


----------



## Eric_H (Jan 26, 2015)

It's not a matter of bothering, I'm genuinely curious - what value does this have?


----------



## Danny T (Jan 26, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> It's not a matter of bothering, I'm genuinely curious - what value does this have?


None, unless one actually utilizes those drills.
What value does any drill have if it is only written. Same for any drill any qualified instructor were to come up with today. No value unless the drills is actually used.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

Sorry I am struggling in following this thread, what is the message? Thanks


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 28, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Sorry I am struggling in following this thread, what is the message? Thanks



No message. Just simple curiosity on my end. When I saw this list / post was reminded of certain portions of my WC upbringing. I am not that familiar with Chinese terms, so san sao / san sik peaked my curiousity. Figured some of the wise and experienced folks on here could provide feedback, etc.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 28, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> No message. Just simple curiosity on my end. When I saw this list / post was reminded of certain portions of my WC upbringing. I am not that familiar with Chinese terms, so san sao / san sik peaked my curiousity. Figured some of the wise and experienced folks on here could provide feedback, etc.


---------------------------------------------
In Ip Man wing chun- san sik drills develop key movements and the flows fron to another. Different Ip Man lineages have arranged them in their own way.There are single hand development- 20 key motions- tan, bong, lop, lan, biu. Then kuen is done with the other hand, then small turns are added. Then there are two handed san sik drills about 10 of them including jip sao, can jam etc.Then two person drills with the san sik motions.
All motions will eventually emerge in chi sao and become embedded in one's reflexive actions. All motions are there in the forms.
Guidance is needed to do these things right.


----------

