# Gays in the MA's



## geezer (Mar 18, 2008)

Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?


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## Blindside (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?


 
No, not currently, but I have had them at other schools, and I didn't care then, and I don't care now.  If I can roll with a female in BJJ and somehow control my urges to rip all our clothes off and mount her right there, I suspect a gay male can do the same for me.  

Lamont


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## YoungMan (Mar 18, 2008)

Wouldn't bother me any more than having Black, Latino, Arabic, or female students.
I probably have had or been in contact with gay students and never knew it.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?



The martial arts ARE "macho" -- you have to FORCE the energy out -- think about breaking techniques -- these are not jokes.  Its not playing around -- you must focus the energy and then --> go THROUGH the target!

Now, I do not remember anything weird about races in my school, even back when I first joined, which was in the late 1970's.  Nothing like that would be tolerated -- we were all practicing together -- getting more powerful together!

Now, I cannot say for sure what this would be like, to practice the martial arts with some gay or lesbian student.  I can only go by what the stereotypes might suggest -- one might think that if a woman were a lesbian they might be "tougher"?  IF that is the case, then that makes training easier -- just do this!

Now, if a man is gay and because of that is fearful of contact, or such (and I'm not saying this is the case -- and even if it is, most likely individual differences would widely vary?), then this is a barrier to learning, and it must be negotiated.  No matter who the student it, they must learn to accept the contact and not be too fearful of it.  They must become desensitized to it, if they are to advance in skill!

But -- the way that our classes are held, once the class starts, such things would be of little affect (effect?)?   Because once the class starts, and you bow, then the SabumNeem will call out motions, we warm up, more, more, then --



BAM!  Here, its on!  Go!  Kick, kick,kick!!!  You hear only his voice!  At that point, the student next to you is only an energy, going along with you like the next little magnet in the big magnet! 

then -- bow and do forms -- no time for thinking of other things, political affiliation or sexual preference or whatever -- you will kick this target until you do YOUR form -- in front of the Teacher! 

freesparring -- fast, fast!  accurate, precise -- no time for other thoughts!

cool down -- good feeling comes now -- everyone is happy.

No, I don't think it would be problematic to have someone who has some preference such as this to be in the school, not if the SabumNeem is okay with it, and the classes are led properly.  But, I like to think that this TKD is for everyone.  Even those with physical handicaps.






Robert


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## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2008)

I trained for a number of years in a school with a teacher who is a lesbian, and a large portion of the students are gay or lesbian.  It was never a problem, the training was excellent, and I never had a reason to feel uncomfortable by my teacher's and classmates' sexual orientation.  Nobody was pushy or crass about it.  It was a great place to train.


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## DArnold (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?


 
As it has nothing to do with MA's it has always been irrelivant!


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?


I went to an all male high school for 4 years and graduated with some gay classmates. It didnt bother me then and doesnt now. As long as lines arent crossed I would have no problem training with them. 

B


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## Shotochem (Mar 18, 2008)

DArnold said:


> As it has nothing to do with MA's it has always been irrelivant!


 

I agree 100%.  

As a matter of fact, I would encourage people of any orientation or preference to study MA as well as any race or color.

Why would being gay make a difference? 

-Marc-


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't know about being gay in MA most of the people I train with are misreable buggers with nowt to be happy about!

:wink2:


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school?


 
I have no idea.... define openly gay



geezer said:


> How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?


 
I don't care. 

What does sexual preference have to do with training MA?


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## MarkBarlow (Mar 18, 2008)

Sexual orientation is irrelevant.  I wouldn't allow a straight to behave in an improper manner on the mat anymore than I would a gay.  Sexual behavior, discussion or recruiting doesn't belong in the dojo regardless of gender or orientation.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 18, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> Sexual orientation is irrelevant.  I wouldn't allow a straight to behave in an improper manner on the mat anymore than I would a gay.  Sexual behavior, discussion or recruiting doesn't belong in the dojo regardless of gender or orientation.



Right -- there should be no way to distinguish these things in the dojang.  This is for practice!


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## CoryKS (Mar 18, 2008)

Can't think of a single way in which sexual orientation matters in MA.  But if you are suggesting that gays can't be macho, then everything we've learned from the Village People is wrong.


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## bluekey88 (Mar 18, 2008)

What everyone else said.

To quote the great film "PCU"


IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!

Peace,
Erik


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## punisher73 (Mar 18, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> Sexual orientation is irrelevant. I wouldn't allow a straight to behave in an improper manner on the mat anymore than I would a gay. Sexual behavior, discussion or recruiting doesn't belong in the dojo regardless of gender or orientation.


 

I agree.  No place for it.


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## Kacey (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?





DArnold said:


> As it has nothing to do with MA's it has always been irrelivant!





Shotochem said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I would encourage people of any orientation or preference to study MA as well as any race or color.
> 
> ...


What they said.  People are people, and come in a wide range of varieties.  Why would I care about their sexual orientation, unless they're hitting on people in class, which I don't allow regardless of the gender(s) involved?


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?



I have been at several schools where a classmate was known to be gay.

I have to say people were really mature about it.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 18, 2008)

Kacey said:


> What they said.  People are people, and come in a wide range of varieties.  Why would I care about their sexual orientation, unless they're [bold]hitting on people in class[/bold], which I don't allow regardless of the gender(s) involved?


Right -- making advances -- we always "hit" on people in the class -- with the punches and kicks! Hahaha!


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## elder999 (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?


 

Well, here&#8217;s a funny story:

I started in tae kwon do when I was 11 (1971), and when I went to boarding school, at age 13, I sort of switched to kyokushin- I say sort of because I did both for the next 5 years or so-until I gave up tae kwon do- and  with both of my  teacher&#8217;s permission. Anyway, there was this guy Wesley in my kyokushin class-he was two years older than I was, really fast, and a really good technician-_&#8221;quite macho,&#8221;_ and, as a nerdish congenital klutz who was (at the time) anything but _macho_,  I really looked up to him. Fast forward a few  more years:I&#8217;ve traveled around the world and been to a couple of colleges, and through a few more martial arts teachers, and I&#8217;ve settled down in my home area to work. I meet up with Wesley again, and we become fast friends, in spite of the fact that he&#8217;s become&#8230;&#8230;_a drag queen._

Now, the guy was a professional dancer, and actually made a &#8220;pretty woman,&#8221; if you didn&#8217;t know any better, anyway. We actually worked security at a couple of parties in Manhattan and the Bronx back in the 80&#8217;s-he always worked in drag, and I once saw him take down a couple of guys while wearing  high heels. 

He also carried a .357 in his purse-pretty macho, if you ask me&#8230;.. :lol:

There wasn&#8217;t anyone I&#8217;d rather have at my back-(snicker!)-at the time. In spite of his occasional joking attempts at making me uncomfortable, I never thought much about his sexual orientation one way or the other, right up until he got sick and died&#8230;..truly one of the _toughest_ people I&#8217;ve ever known, and an impressive technician, as far as martial arts go-and someone who met every standard I could conceive for being &#8220;masculinity,&#8221; except for one, which was really none of my business.

Short answer, to echo everyone else here: what difference does it make? It certainly didn't make any difference to any of us, at the time-you jsut really didn't want to spar with the guy. Not because he was gay, but because he'd kick yer butt,...


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## tellner (Mar 18, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?




Hmm, first "macho" and "gay" aren't necessarily exclusive. Far from it. Consider Sparta and Ernst Rohm just to start with.

I don't know if there are any openly gay students currently. Most people don't talk about sexuality very much in class. There have been gay, lesbian and bisexual students in the past. I've trained in schools where the teacher was an out lesbian. When we taught women's self defense there were plenty of bi and lesbian students and the occasional transitioning male to female. I'm sure there have been others I don't know about. It isn't relevant to class and would be rude to ask.

How do I feel about it? It doesn't matter at all. Sometimes queer students have particular personal issues that affect their training in the same way that anyone can. It's either a big deal or not depending on whether it interferes with class. The same can be said for all people. 

One of the usual unspoken questions in discussions like this is "Do you get weirded out working with someone who likes other dudes (or chicks if you're a woman)?" Hiding behind that are "What if I'm in close physical contact with someone who might think I'm hot?" and "Will he do something to me?"  and "Will people think I'm gay if I work out with him or change in the same locker room?"

My answers are "So what?", "No", "So what?" and "Nobody worth knowing."

Women working in predominantly male schools have to deal with this sort of thing all the time, and they've got the whole size, strength and social expectations things working against them. They manage. You can, too. Speaking of women, I've found that in general they deal with lesbians in class matter of factly without the drama that gay men in a group of straight men engender (so to speak).


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## donna (Mar 18, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know about being gay in MA most of the people I train with are misreable buggers with nowt to be happy about!
> 
> :wink2:


ROFLMAO:roflmao:


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## tellner (Mar 18, 2008)

Now, there _are _a few things that _can _be a bit different.

My wife's old JKD teacher was doing a self defense seminar for a gay and lesbian campus group at UMinn. One technique involved grabbing a guy by the groin. He said "Now, guys will move back when you do this." Sure enough, the demo-dummy moved forward with a little shimmy.

The other involved a cop teaching MA/SD to a similar organization in Alaska. He said "I will now teach you a technique which will bring a 200 pound man to his knees" in his best "You are here to receive a unit of instruction" manner. A voice from the back of the room responded "Oh, _*Baby*_!"

Both to riotous laughter.


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## searcher (Mar 18, 2008)

People need to keep their sexual urges and their orientation to themselves.   I don't care what your preferences are, if it becomes a problem in class, then they are going to have to leave.   It does not matter who they are openly going after.    We are a martial arts school, not a dating serrvice.    As long as they pay their dues, train hard, and learn, then I don't care what they do away from my school.


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## gkygrl (Mar 18, 2008)

My partner and I (read lesbians) started Combat Hapkido roughly 5 weeks ago and are only 2 of 3 women in the class.  We've been asked about our relationship (we wear wedding rings and were married in MA. legally in 2005).  We are open about things ... meaning honest and respectful ... if people ask.  We never push ourselves our our way of living on anyone.  We just are.

My partner is very small and feminine and I look kind of like a Soccer Mom (so I have been told).  We are not the stereotypical "butch" couple that you might have in your mind that might take a Combat Hapkido MA.

We live life, we fight hard.  We are respectful and it really does not matter to us our our classmates.    For some of the ground survival training we naturally work together because of gender.  It would be that way in any Dojang.

Just my 2 cents.  It really does not matter.  Respect is always the key issue.   Just be.


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## Drac (Mar 18, 2008)

What an asinine question...If everyone was the same this would be a boring ****ing world..You want to learn?? I want to teach...Nuff said...


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## geezer (Mar 19, 2008)

Drac said:


> What an asinine question...If everyone was the same this would be a boring ****ing world..You want to learn?? I want to teach...Nuff said...



No Drac, it's an importantant question. If you haven't noticed that there's still a lot of homophobic attitudes out there you've got your eyes shut. But from what's been posted here so far, it seems that most people are pretty fair minded. That's pretty surprising in a country that won't let gays serve in the military and where a lot of folks want a constitutional ammendment to prevent gay marriage or legal partnerships. You know I started this thread after listening to some rude jokes by some fellow martial arts practitioners. All of these individuals consider themselves "tolerant", but as long as we think that sexist, racist and anti-gay jokes are funny, we have some questions to ask... like how tolerant are we, really?


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## Blindside (Mar 19, 2008)

gkygrl said:


> We live life, we fight hard. We are respectful and it really does not matter to us our our classmates. For some of the ground survival training we naturally work together because of gender. It would be that way in any Dojang.


 
Actually you need to be practicing with men, you aren't likely to attacked and taken to the ground by a female, and working with bigger and stronger partners can only improve your odds should that rare occurence happen.  

Lamont


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 19, 2008)

Blindside said:


> Actually you need to be practicing with men, you aren't likely to attacked and taken to the ground by a female, and working with bigger and stronger partners can only improve your odds should that rare occurence happen.
> 
> Lamont



This is an important point. I can understand pairing according to rank, but even then, you sometimes should train with partners above and below your level. If your instructor doesn't EVER pair you with someone else to train with, you're losing out. I understand it's only been 5 weeks since you started, but keep it in mind as time goes on and you progress. It's one thing to have a regular training partner, it's another to have only ONE training partner.


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## Drac (Mar 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> No Drac, it's an importantant question. If you haven't noticed that there's still a lot of homophobic attitudes out there you've got your eyes shut.


 
My eyes are NOT shut...So how many hate crimes against gays have you responded to in the last year??? I've lost count...I believe that we will NEVER be rid of of the homophobic attitudes...




geezer said:


> But from what's been posted here so far, it seems that most people are pretty fair minded.


 
True instructors and MA's don't give a rats butt about someones sexual orientation as long as it dosn't interupt the class



geezer said:


> That's pretty surprising in a country that won't let gays serve in the military and where a lot of folks want a constitutional ammendment to prevent gay marriage or legal partnerships.


 
That 'a handfull of fearfull people in high places in our goverment.. 



geezer said:


> You know I started this thread after listening to some rude jokes by some fellow martial arts practitioners. All of these individuals consider themselves "tolerant", but as long as we think that sexist, racist and anti-gay jokes are funny, we have some questions to ask... like how tolerant are we, really?


 
As long as YOU know in your heart that you are tolerent and accept students no matter what their orientation ignore those comments...


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## newGuy12 (Mar 19, 2008)

Drac said:


> What an asinine question...If everyone was the same this would be a boring ****ing world..You want to learn?? I want to teach...Nuff said...



I have to laugh when I read this, because I have met Teachers with this attitude with a vengence -- they will teach anyone, no concern over if they have the moral standing to be their student, if they are a "bad kid", no problem.  The only thing is that the student has to be a "Righteous Student", they have to not give up.  

Haha -- You want to learn to kick and punch, we shall see if you do.  We shall let the makiwara decide if you want to learn!!!  

Be mindful that I have been freaking sick for 2 freaking weeks plus change, this freaking disease keeps moving around my body and I can't kick it, so my mind is not completely on track.  But, many of you know this way of thinking.  To me it is quite correct, not just concerning gay and lesbian students, but anyone.

Now, consider the difference between the Martial Arts School and any other institution.  Here, we may very well have a Teacher who wants to endow SOMEONE with this skill, in order to see it manifest.  It is prideful.  I am not a teacher, but I myself have taken great pride in watching fellow students gain skill, sometimes to my great surprise.  This is why I would be very surprised if a "Righteous Student" (for lack of better words) would be turned away. 

That is, the students who are not cry-babies.  They do not complain or like weakness, but will consistently strive to keep up and gain power.  Everyone wishes to see them continue, and become black belt students someday, do they not?  It is like seeing a beautiful tree grow.  I am sure that many of you know what I am talking about.

As for the others, who only THINK they wish to learn this, but do not really wish to pay the price, once the time comes to sweat and disregard the bruises... well, they can be here or go away, it is not near as much of a loss. 

The bottom line is that whoever has the mettle to not shy away from any harsh practice, they will be the favoured students of the teacher, period.  This is the important thing with this Martial Art practice.


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## terryl965 (Mar 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> *fromNo Drac, it's an importantant question. If you haven't noticed that there's still a lot of homophobic attitudes out there you've got your eyes shut.*
> 
> Yes tbut that does not mean you have to be one.
> 
> ...





I can only agree to me it does not and will not matter each person needs to live there lifes in the manner they choose to. I will basically teach anybody and notice it says almost anybody, I.E. Sex offander and rappist and a few other crimes that may occur these types I will not train period.

And yes I tell all adult I run a background check to make sure the ones that say no do not get to train inside my school the others are welcome if they clear a check.


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## YoungMan (Mar 19, 2008)

I would imagine gays in the martial arts are like gays in professional sports: more so than you realize and you'd be surprised to know who they are.
But given the macho attitudes of many martial artists, not surprising they don't come out more. Look how long it took for women to be accepted.
Granted, they would not be physically helpless, but it's the doubtless social stigma that they would be afraid of. Who cares if you can beat the guy in sparring if he considers you less than human because of your orientation? That would be the greater pain.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2008)

If someone is a bully or unnecessarily violent in an MA then I have a real problem and likely I would not teach them.

But someone that is gay.... I don't freakin care...shut up and train. OR to quote my last xingyi sifu when a student brought up something that had absolutly NO bearing on the class at all "I don't care... this is Xingyi now shut up and stand in santi" It was not a sexual orientation comment but it was equally as irrelevant to Xingyiquan so why talk about it at all. I am there to train and it is not social hour.

If someone is making jokes about it and you don't like it...TELL them to stop, tell them it is not appreciated, tell them this is not the place for it, etc. You want to effect prejudice stand up to those being prejudice because posting about it does little to change them, that is if they can be changed at all. Posting on MT about it does little to change the offender&#8217;s attitude unless of course they are posting on MT and even then it likely will make no difference since we are all living in the wonderful world wide web of anonymity.

As previously stated I do not care if a person is Gay, Lesbian, Bi or Heterosexual. IT has NOTHING to do with training an MA.


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## Drac (Mar 19, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> I have to laugh


 
You laughed..I was not attempting to be funny, just making a point about acceptance..Gee I guess I should have said " I don't care if you TV, TG, TS or gay..If you want to learn and will put forth your best effort to do so then I will be happy to teach..Sexual preditors of ANY variety need not apply...


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## newGuy12 (Mar 19, 2008)

Drac said:


> You laughed..I was not attempting to be funny, just making a point about acceptance..Gee I guess I should have said " I don't care if you TV, TG, TS or gay..If you want to learn and will put forth your best effort to do so then I will be happy to teach..Sexual preditors of ANY variety need not apply...


I didn't mean to be a smart-alec.  I don't run a school, and I have no concern over whether criminals learn these martial arts.  If someone wishes to learn, in this day, they will learn.  Though, I can understand why a Teacher would seek to discriminate, to ease their own mind.

I do guess that there is a difference between some schools that are run primarily to make a profit, and other schools that are not run PRIMARILY to make a profit (I'm not joking).  In these "other" schools, anyone who will maintain the practice without giving up receives respect from the other students, do they not?  There is a comraderie there that transcends MANY differences.  For lack of other words, there is a "loving feeling" among that family, though they may be of quite different people.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> I didn't mean to be a smart-alec. I don't run a school, and I have no concern over whether criminals learn these martial arts. If someone wishes to learn, in this day, they will learn. Though, I can understand why a Teacher would seek to discriminate, to ease their own mind.
> 
> I do guess that there is a difference between some schools that are run primarily to make a profit, and other schools that are not run PRIMARILY to make a profit (I'm not joking). In these "other" schools, anyone who will maintain the practice without giving up receives respect from the other students, do they not? There is a comraderie there that transcends MANY differences. For lack of other words, there is a "loving feeling" among that family, though they may be of quite different people.


 
My Sanda Sifu will not teach anyone he does not know or trust because he is very concerned about teaching Sanda to someone who will use it just to hurt people. However it is not his business and even though I have tried to get him to open a school because in todays society he could make a lot of money teaching is, he will not teach it openly because as he said it is to easy to learn how to hurt someone with Sanda and he does not want to teach someone that just wants it to be tough or go out and hurt or bully others and if it were a business he would have to do allow anyone to learn in the US (in China things are very different) and he does not want that so no school and you know something, I agree with him on this 100%. 

I know this has nothing to do with the OP, my apologies :asian:, but it was relevant to your post I felt.


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## Kingindian (Mar 19, 2008)

i think thats ok for Gay to joined or learn martial arts..and im ok to train with Gays..
as long as they dont try to harm me


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## DArnold (Mar 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> No Drac, it's an importantant question. If you haven't noticed that there's still a lot of homophobic attitudes out there you've got your eyes shut. But from what's been posted here so far, it seems that most people are pretty fair minded. That's pretty surprising in a country that won't let gays serve in the military and where a lot of folks want a constitutional ammendment to prevent gay marriage or legal partnerships. You know I started this thread after listening to some rude jokes by some fellow martial arts practitioners. All of these individuals consider themselves "tolerant", but as long as we think that sexist, racist and anti-gay jokes are funny, we have some questions to ask... like how tolerant are we, really?


 
I didn't know gays could not serve in the military.
I must have missed that change.

I love sexist, racist, anti-gay, white, black, mexican, women, men, religious, moral, political.... jokes.

Tollerance has long been a guiese for acceptance, just as inaction is an action!

Because someone is not for what you are for, does not make them anti-anything or intollerant.

For example I can belive that the sexes are not equal, but that does not make me a sexist...

I find the whole offense-sensitivity and P.C. crap offending.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2008)

tellner said:


> Now, there _are _a few things that _can _be a bit different.
> 
> My wife's old JKD teacher was doing a self defense seminar for a gay and lesbian campus group at UMinn. One technique involved grabbing a guy by the groin. He said "Now, guys will move back when you do this." Sure enough, the demo-dummy moved forward with a little shimmy.
> 
> ...


 
There would probably have been a very similiar answer from a class of straight women lol!


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## tellner (Mar 19, 2008)

DArnold said:


> I didn't know gays could not serve in the military.
> I must have missed that change.


It's been that way since before WWI. The UCMJ makes homosexual acts (and analogous acts practiced between heterosexuals) illegal. Gays and lesbians have been subject to immediate dismissal and in some cases courts martial for being gay. 

One of the reasons San Francisco became a center for gay people is that ban. During WWII many servicemen (mostly men) discharged for homosexuality returned to the US through the port of San Francisco and stayed there. 

President Clinton tried to find a compromise with "Don't ask. Son't tell." It actually led to an increase in the numbers of gays and lesbians tossed out of the Service. Not surprisingly, during Vietnam and the current hose-out the number of soldiers involuntarily separated for homosexuality plummets. During peacetime they are purged because their existence is "harmful to good order and discipline". 



> Tollerance has long been a guiese for acceptance, just as inaction is an action!
> 
> Because someone is not for what you are for, does not make them anti-anything or intollerant.
> 
> ...


 
That's because you're one of the ones on top. 

Jokes? Yeah, I like some of them. But they have an effect, and it comes in below the critical facilities. The really nasty ones make a real and measurable difference in attitudes that is translated into actions.

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out a way to do this less graphically. I just got off the phone with a fairly well-known Black writer and my (Black, Chinese, Muslim, published poet) wife to try and come up with a way that was less in-your-face but made the point anywhere near as effectively. They couldn't think of one either. So please bear with me. The next few paragraphs are nasty, but there's a very legitimate end to all of this:

"Whaddya call a thousand ******s swimming back to Africa with a kike under each arm? A good start!" used to be considered sidesplittingly funny. Now it's completely socially unacceptable, and thank G-d for that.

How far is that from the famous neo-Nazi poem that starts:



> Coon, coon,
> Black baboon,
> Lousy, stinking
> Thieving goon.
> ...


_Note: The writer and the poet considered it one of the most compelling and well-constructed pieces of poetry they've seen in a while. The fact that it's well-done and effective doesn't make it better. It makes it worse_

They're about half a step removed from what some of Portland's finest did some years back. They thought it was a great joke to leave rotting possums on the doorsteps of Black-owned restaurants. And that's all sorts of civil rights violations just waiting to happen the next time those cops interact with a Black person. It goes downhill from there.

A little while later a Black man who was a week away from entering the Police Academy was strangled to death by a Portland cop. The guy was an innocent bystander in a case where a (White) man robbed a 7-11. The cop came in and immediately attacked the Black guy and killed him. Part of his defense(!) was that Blacks are more susceptible to chokes and strangles than "normal people". Within days cops were wearing shirts showing an a dead man with exaggerated Black features and the caption "Don't choke 'em! Smoke 'em!"

The jokes and "pranks" helped make it acceptable to think of and treat anyone with dark skin as less than human. Anyone with more than three brain cells huddling together for warmth can see what follows. Yes, it's possible to go too far and become hypersensitive. But I'd rather err on the side of kindness and human consideration once in a while than tolerate that kind of dehumanizing crap and the very real injustice that comes with it.

One could write volumes about this for just about any group you care to think of - Women, Jews, Irishmen, Mexicans, Gypsies, Japanese, Poles and so on. In fact, people have. In every case degrading humor was one of the most common ways or reinforcing the hatred and keeping them in their place. 

That sort of thing also makes it easier to keep people where they're "supposed" to be. If your fundamental attitude is that they aren't quite human or at least inherently a little inferior it makes injustice easy to overlook. They're where they are because they deserve to be. It's not my fault or the fault of anyone like me. So it's sure not my responsibility to do anything about it. If they were as good as me they wouldn't be there.

This is a little difficult for those who have been in the driver's seat to understand. If you're a straight White Protestant man there aren't that many jokes about what you are ethnically or religiously which cut you deeply, because humor hasn't been used on people like you that way so much. It's a joke. So what? When you don't have any reason to believe that you will be denied a job or place to live, charged more to buy a home, thrown out of a restaurant, raped or killed because of how you were born you just don't see it the same way as someone who has been.


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## tellner (Mar 19, 2008)

> For example I can belive that the sexes are not equal, but that does not make me a sexist...


 
Oh? What does it mean, then?

Dictionary definitions are always tricky, but they are good places to start. Let's take a look at Merriam-Webster:


> Main Entry: sex·ismPronunciation: \&#712;sek-&#716;si-z&#601;m\ Function: _noun_ Etymology: _1sex_ + _-ism_ (as in _racism_) Date: 1968 1*:* prejudice or discrimination based on sex; _especially_ *:* discrimination against women2*:* behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex


 
Unless you can do some pretty fancy shucking and jiving you've just stepped on your member and shot yourself in the foot. Your response will probably be along the lines of:

"I didn't mean not *equal*. I meant not absolutely identical. There are these inborn differences which mean that men and women are different. Not that we should treat anyone unfairly, but really, you have to acknowledge reality and treat the dear little things according to the way they are. They're just not as rational or strong as men. They get these funny moods every few weeks. It's just wrong when one of them is in charge. Oh, I'll grant that there are a few exceptions..."

Been there. Done that. Bought the unisex one size fits nobody t-shirt.


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## CoryKS (Mar 19, 2008)

Wow.  Cue the Tourette's of Righteousness.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 19, 2008)

tellner said:


> Been there. Done that. Bought the unisex one size fits nobody t-shirt.



Wait -- wait... Now, this is getting off of the topic (which is fine with me), but this is something that is interesting.  Now, before I say anything, let me say this -- it has no bearing AT ALL what I think about anything, because I do not run a school, I do not hire anyone, I am a "nobody" when it counts about these things.  I have a very simple life.

Now, that being said, that it really doesn't matter what I think, I will tell you...  We all know, or should know -- that a woman can learn to fight well.  I myself have had fellow students who were women and they gave me good contest in the freesparring.   Sometimes they were better than me.  I am talking about when I was younger and my technique was much better than it is now.  We had women students that could freespar better than me!  So, I know that there is no sense in saying that a woman cannot do these martial arts as well as they wish to do them, provided like a man student that they practice well.

But, suppose that ON THE WHOLE, you were given the choice that -- "Quick!  I will provide you with only one person to help you get through this bad neighborhood -- we have one man and one woman, which one will you take?  Quick!"

Surely you would not say to take the woman?  How many women choose to do the martial arts compared to men?  Not very many.  Every school that I have ever been to, there are more men students than women.  I think its because women OVERALL do not like to do these as much as men do OVERALL.  

That being said, most men are stronger than most women.  Sure, SOME MEN are not as strong as SOME WOMEN, but this is the special case.  Do you not think that TYPICALLY SPEAKING ("across the board") that a man is not stronger than a woman?

This is not put down women.  This is just simply the truth, more times than it is not.  No one can deny this.   In the Army, the physical fitness test is different for the man than for the woman soldier.  Why?  Because this makes sense -- now, on the rifle range, the women soldier TYPICALLY scores higher -- why?  Because they do not tend to hold the weapon tight -- they prefer to cradle it -- this gives better accuracy.  This is not fanciful thinking.  

So, to say that men and women are the same in all ways, this does not seem right.  To say that one or the other is better TYPICALLY at one thing or another, TYPICALLY, I think this is true, though with training, of course, this can be changed.

I am not trying to stir up trouble with this, really.  That is not my intention.


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## tellner (Mar 19, 2008)

Nah, on second thought I'll ditch this post.


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## theletch1 (Mar 19, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> now, on the rifle range, the women soldier TYPICALLY scores higher -- why? Because they do not tend to hold the weapon tight -- they prefer to cradle it -- this gives better accuracy. This is not fanciful thinking.
> .


I'm taking issue only with this part of the post.  I'm not touching the rest of it, nuh, unh, no way, no how.

Those individuals who typically score higher on the rifle range are those folks who've NEVER fired a rifle before.  It has nothing to do with gripping vs cuddling your weapon.  It has everything to do with old habits that may work fine with a hunting rifle that won't work so well with the standard issue rifle.  When a PMI trains a recruit to fire their weapon they teach them everything they need to know to fire it accurately (this is from the USMC standard, soldiers and sailors will have to speak for themselves) and having old habits gets in the way of this.


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## Scarey (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't, personally, even see why this is an issue. How does the object of one's attraction have any bearing on the other activities they engage in? Unless you're into martial arts for some sexual purpose, sexuality shouldn't enter the equation.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2008)

Scarey said:


> I don't, personally, even see why this is an issue. How does the object of one's attraction have any bearing on the other activities they engage in? Unless you're into martial arts for some sexual purpose, sexuality shouldn't enter the equation.


 
This is absolutely right! No disrespect to the OP but I can't see why it was even posted in the first place to be honest!
Incidentally, it's not illegal to be gay in the British forces nor transexual. We have civil partnerships here so gay people get married legally.


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## terryl965 (Mar 19, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> This is absolutely right! No disrespect to the OP but I can't see why it was even posted in the first place to be honest!
> Incidentally, it's not illegal to be gay in the British forces nor transexual. We have civil partnerships here so gay people get married legally.


 
Like I said earlier I will train anybody as long as they are not some type of sex offender or rappist.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 19, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Those individuals who typically score higher on the rifle range are those folks who've NEVER fired a rifle before.  It has nothing to do with gripping vs cuddling your weapon.  It has everything to do with old habits that may work fine with a hunting rifle that won't work so well with the standard issue rifle.  When a PMI trains a recruit to fire their weapon they teach them everything they need to know to fire it accurately (this is from the USMC standard, soldiers and sailors will have to speak for themselves) and having old habits gets in the way of this.



Its certainly not worth arguing, but for reference I will say that I was told this by an Army DI.  True, he said that if people simply do as they are told to do, their score will be optimized.  Simply do as you are told -- do not grip the weapon tightly, but rather let it REST in the forward hand (this is from the supported position with the firer in a standing position and the forward arm supported -- their feet are below the ground). 

Now, it may be that this is ONLY because the women typically did not previously fire the rifle at a range?  I do not know, all I know is this smokey-bear Man, who was a real DI told this to me, he said, without fail, every single time, you can see the scores break down this way on the rifle range.

Why exactly?  He did not say?  Was he lying?  I have no reason to believe that he would lie, there would be no gain in that.










Well, then, I should have not posted what I did post.  I was not trying to cause any trouble. I would prefer that in the future I will not run my mouth about what I think about things like this that benefit no one. There's no reason to ruffle feathers, and I do not seek to be a Troll.  I would rather not post anywhere than to try to rile users up, I hope that that is known.

You users can know that I like this board a lot, but maybe it is just best for me to not engage in any of these controversial threads, because I may step on toes.  Its just better to not say anything then, rather to offend, there is not benefit from that. 

You all have my respect, that is not a lie.  I learn many things and have many good times from reading these posts.  You are all fine enough people, from what I can tell.







Sincerely,

Robert


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 19, 2008)

As far as I know there is not any queers where I learn Kung-Fu, Like most everybody here has said, talking about your sexual orientation has no place in martial arts, it has no place anywhere except with your mate.
I really don't care if someone is queer, just don't try to make me accept your life style.


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## grydth (Mar 19, 2008)

A person's sexual preference makes no difference to me, in MA or anything else.


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## jks9199 (Mar 19, 2008)

I want to answer "it doesn't matter."

But I'm reasonably aware of my prejudices.  I won't say that knowing I'm training with an openly gay guy might not make me uncomfortable...  At the same time, I recall one of the most surreal conversations I ever had...  I was working as a waiter, and I was standing at the front desk of the restaurant.  I was chatting with another waiter, and the two hostess.  We were all talking about the hot blondes across the way...  The openly gay waiter and the straight hostess were discussing the guy, and I was discussing the gal with the gay hostess!  

As a general rule -- I don't care who your sexual partners are when we train.  I believe in using good universal precautions no matter who is bleeding -- because too many things that are carried in blood or bodily fluids aren't really all that good about knowing who they're _supposed_ to be infecting...


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## kidswarrior (Mar 19, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know about being gay in MA most of the people I train with are misreable buggers with nowt to be happy about!
> 
> :wink2:


Oh, Irene, you date yourself.  Regarding the fact you _remember  _when gay actually meant happy, consider your age now publicly 'outed' :rofl:

But on the serious side, I'm with you on this: 





Tez3 said:


> No disrespect to the OP but I can't see why it was even posted in the first place to be honest!


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## myusername (Mar 20, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Well, then, I should have not posted what I did post.  I was not trying to cause any trouble. I would prefer that in the future I will not run my mouth about what I think about things like this that benefit no one. There's no reason to ruffle feathers, and I do not seek to be a Troll.  I would rather not post anywhere than to try to rile users up, I hope that that is known.
> 
> You users can know that I like this board a lot, but maybe it is just best for me to not engage in any of these controversial threads, because I may step on toes.  Its just better to not say anything then, rather to offend, there is not benefit from that.
> 
> ...



Don't worry Robert I don't believe anybody would think that you were trolling! Your posts are always respectful and from what I have read you contribute a lot to this forum and seem a thoroughly nice chap! A forum is a place for an exchange of ideas and opinions and that was exactly what you were doing. Just because some disagree does not mean you should not post your thoughts. If you post in the controversial threads expect some polarising of views as that is why the thread is controversial. Please keep posting as it keeps the debate alive and its fun!


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 20, 2008)

myusername said:


> Don't worry Robert I don't believe anybody would think that you were trolling! Your posts are always respectful and from what I have read you contribute a lot to this forum and seem a thoroughly nice chap! A forum is a place for an exchange of ideas and opinions and that was exactly what you were doing. Just because some disagree does not mean you should not post your thoughts. If you post in the controversial threads expect some polarising of views as that is why the thread is controversial. Please keep posting as it keeps the debate alive and its fun!



I second that. :asian:



			
				navyvetcv60 said:
			
		

> As far as I know there is not any queers where I learn Kung-Fu, Like most everybody here has said, talking about your sexual orientation has no place in martial arts, it has no place anywhere except with your mate.
> I really don't care if someone is queer, just don't try to make me accept your life style.



Not only is your choice of words rude, but I can't imagine a single homosexual who would go into the martial arts to hit on, or push their orientation on classmates. 

I read the OP with the view that he was talking more about homophobic "macho men" in the martial arts. It's obvious that the _majority _of members on Martial Talk do not have this problem and sexual orientation is not an issue. But as geezer stated, it used to be far more prevalent and I'm sure there are some places and people left for whom it still is. 
Those *martial artists*, and I use the term loosely, who *would *have an issue with it, are insecure bullies who need to puff themselves up through their training and lack of respect for anyone who doesn't view the world the same way they do. LUZERS.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2008)

I admit it, I'm dated! LOL!

However I also remember when the word "queer" was used and then as now it's offensive.

Mew Guy don't beat yourself up, you weren't at all offensive or upsetting!


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## Carol (Mar 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> However I also remember when the word "queer" was used and then as now it's offensive.



There were a few reports to the mod team about the use of the word "queer" in this thread.  

We're discussing the matter.  

In the mean time, carry on with the discussion but please keep it polite and respectful.

- Carol Kaur
- MT Sr. Moderator


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## K' Evans (Mar 20, 2008)

Actually I think this is quite a good topic for discussion. I can see that many of the people who replied, don't have a problem with gays in the MA, but I have to admit, that I still encounter those martial artists who carry a "macho"-kind of attitude and would make jokes about gays and etc. I think there has always been this lingering culture about asserting "masculinity", and unfortunately gays have been the receiving end of their jokes. I really don't like the attitude of course, but somehow I find that sometimes these martial artists aren't exactly sexist or prejudiced, because the truth is that they would still train with somebody who is gay. But it's just that they have been brought up in a culture which breeds such attitudes.


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## elder999 (Mar 20, 2008)

While I'm not trying to defend the use of the word, "queer," I have to say that I remember people in the Gay Pride Parade in NYC chanting _"We're here; we're queer; get used to it!"_

OF course, I'm a bit dated myself, but I can see the confusion. It might be kind of like finding "Negro" offensive, though......


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2008)

elder999 said:


> While I'm not trying to defend the use of the word, "queer," I have to say that I remember people in the Gay Pride Parade in NYC chanting _"We're here; we're queer; get used to it!"_
> 
> OF course, I'm a bit dated myself, but I can see the confusion. It might be kind of like finding "Negro" offensive, though......


 
It may be a Transatlantic thing again? I find it very offensive as do my gay friends. Although using in that context is probably a good idea as it tends to take the sting out of the word.
When we are training we are usually too out of breath or in pain to actually articualte any like or dislike of anything let along sexual orientation. the most you'll get out of us is "water!" well apart from the cries of pain and pleas to god and Jesus! We are very religious in training, when an arm bar goes on! Seriously though we don't have the time or inclination to worry about sex, gender or much else really.
After training the discussion is on fights, fighters, training methods etc. Very very boring for non MA family and friends.


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## Zero (Mar 20, 2008)

I've had gay friends that were martial artists but can't recall ever training with or there being any gay members at the various clubs and styles I have trained with over the years - though I'm sure there must have been as that's about 5 clubs over 20 years so I don't see on the stats how there couldn't be.

There is meant to be an all gay (male focused) brazillian jujitsu club somewhere round my area - now I'm not saying I would be joining up with that club anytime soon, no siree - but I would have no problem training, sparring or fighting with a gay martial artist for all the reasons already given above.

I guess (and hope) the flip side is that gay's have no problem training with us 'straights' - maybe the question we should be asking is how they find it and if we martial artists as a whole appear to be a decent open minded bunch and not a lot of red neck biggots?


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## newGuy12 (Mar 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> When we are training we are usually too out of breath or in pain to actually articualte any like or dislike of anything let along sexual orientation. the most you'll get out of us is "water!" well apart from the cries of pain and pleas to god and Jesus! We are very religious in training, when an arm bar goes on! Seriously though we don't have the time or inclination to worry about sex, gender or much else really.



Well, with hesitation I continue to give my 2 cents worth here, because I have not yet been given bad reputation, and other users have said that is is okay to do so, and thank you.

Above it was said that it would be hard to imagine someone's being gay to be a problem.  And this is why right here.  Now, I train in the TaeKwonDo.  I have had a *LITTLE* bit of experience with other schools, but not enough to say about it.

In this TKD, we have the tendency to make BIG, explosive motions and it is very tiring, especially to me.  As a matter of fact, I have been told told by the Teacher before, "You can take a break if you wish to now", because I sometimes loose the breath, and must bend over for a minute.  Of course, I do not choose to step out because that would be showing that I am not giving all of the heart.

Now, so, I say, this is the "macho way".  We wish to rise to this occasion, and press ourselves with this physical exercise, right?  This is what is seen to be the right way.  

We are now running into complications with words and definitions.  This "macho" is a Spanish word -- it means something like "strong".  That is what we wish and what we strive for.  It is not bad.

The word "queer", I cannot comment on, except to say that is sounds pejorative (to me) -- it sounds like "strange" -- as in "You do not do as we do".  So, that is offensive, but again, I cannot speak for anyone who is of some gay disposition, who knows for sure?

Also, the main point of bother in my mind is this:  If a straight man trains with a gay man, and then other straight men see this, they may think to themselves, "Oh, you are training with him, then you must also be gay."  Well, of course, this is small thinking.

I will now be quite, but I can also one more thing -- there is a way of looking at this thread that it is a waste of time -- surely there is no such problem with some gay man joining a school and then being kicked out or derided for that, UNLESS, MAYBE, if there were something else going on -- say, if they were to say to someone, "You, I would like to get a peice of that!!!"  Or just act out in some silly way, but at that point, they demonstrate that they are NOT serious about learning these kicks and punches, and so what is the point?  Be gone with them if they wish to water down and spoil our practices.

This kind of thing surely does not happen often enough to be of interest, in my estimation.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 20, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Well, with hesitation I continue to give my 2 cents worth here, because I have not yet been given bad reputation, and other users have said that is is okay to do so, and thank you.


Don't know why you'd get a neg rep. havent' ever seen anything amiss. 



> Also, the main point of bother in my mind is this: If a straight man trains with a gay man, and then other straight men see this, they may think to themselves, "Oh, you are training with him, then you must also be gay." Well, of course, this is small thinking.


The teens I work with come out of a very macho culture, so being 'Gay' is the ultimate insult they use with each other. It's become generalized now, so for example they'll say _That's gay_ (doesn't even have to be a person, can be a thing). 

Once in awhile when I'm joking with one or two, they'll use it on me. My response is always, So? What if I am? Stops them in their tracks and kinda gets them thinking. They're stunned by the fact I don't care what anyone else thinks.


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## Kacey (Mar 20, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> As far as I know there is not any queers where I learn Kung-Fu, Like most everybody here has said, talking about your sexual orientation has no place in martial arts, it has no place anywhere except with your mate.
> I really don't care if someone is queer, just don't try to make me accept your life style.



I don't see how training with someone means you are being forced to accept [their] lifestyle.  I have trained with a huge variety of people - and not _one_ has ever even _attempted _to force _anything_, much less sexual orientation - and certainly, of all the possible lifestyle choices that could people could attempt to "force" upon me, and the situations in which such could happen, I've had problems with people attempting to "force" a religion upon me (being Jewish, I get this more than most - especially from acquaintances who are convinced I need to be "saved") - but in 21 years of active training, such issues (religious, sexual orientation, lifestyle choices, etc.) have never come up in a martial arts setting.  What happens in the dojang is separate from the rest of the day - and that's the way it should be.

Should someone act inappropriately in the dojang, it will be dealt with  - but most of the problems I've seen involved *ego *rather than any other problem, and that has nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation; it's a personality issue.  How such issues are _expressed_ may be related to gender or sexual orientation - but inappropriate behavior based on *ego *is the issue I see (when I see anything, which is rare), and that is the issue that is dealt with.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2008)

Kacey, I get people wanting to 'save' me too lol! thanks but I like my religion....the foods better!
I agree with the ego thing too, something we do have in our club sometimes and we have to stamp on it quickly is 'rank'. As a lot of our students are soldiers they are obviously of different ranks, we've had one or two try to pull army rank on someone who outranked them in MA terms. They don't always like it when as they are an officer for example and they are  being taught something by a private. Doesn't happen often and they do know that in sports there is no army rank or least thats the ideal.


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## Balrog (Mar 20, 2008)

IMNSHO, no one in the school should be aware of anyone else's sexual preferences.  Don't ask, don't tell.


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## The Master (Mar 20, 2008)

It is truly enlightening to see individuals true selves revealed, in their choice of words.

Who one finds of interest is of as little interest to me as who they prefer in the general elections, or their preference of drink. What matters is, their desire to learn and teach, nothing more. As long as they are not a sexual predator, a criminal or in general an ****, and have good hygiene, I would be happy to share a floor with them.

Those who worry about such things are petty small minded people, blinded by their narrowness and lacking in the mettle of a true martial artist. As a wise man once said : Shut Up and Train.


And if I might be so bold, please do not stare at my bum. I shant stare at yours.

Good day.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 20, 2008)

*FYI - Certain Terms being used in this discussion are offensive in nature and their continued use is a violation of our long posted policies on such things.  Please avoid their use in the future.  This is the only warning we will issue.

If you are uncertain then please review our rules.

MartialTalk welcomes people of all nations, creeds, races, and orientations. 


Thank you.*


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## elder999 (Mar 20, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I've had problems with people attempting to "force" a religion upon me (being Jewish, I get this more than most - especially from acquaintances who are convinced I need to be "saved") -.


 
I tried discussing this once before-it's a very Colorado thing-particularly around Colorado Springs, but also in Denver.  I've encountered it more than a couple of times, both in Denver and Colorado Springs, as well as with my wife's relatives from Colorado, who are convinced that, while basically a "good person," I'm some sort of witch-doctor/satanist who's leading us both down the path to HELL....
....most "Christians" will give it a try and back off when you tell them to. Heck, all but the most "ridiculous" of fundamentalists have respect for Judaism, the root of Christianity... A firm "no thank you" should work really well.


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## DArnold (Mar 20, 2008)

tellner said:


> It's been that way since before WWI. The UCMJ makes homosexual acts (and analogous acts practiced between heterosexuals) illegal. Gays and lesbians have been subject to immediate dismissal and in some cases courts martial for being gay.
> 
> One of the reasons San Francisco became a center for gay people is that ban. During WWII many servicemen (mostly men) discharged for homosexuality returned to the US through the port of San Francisco and stayed there.
> 
> ...


 
The problem is you make more assumptions about my comments, and your comments, than I have time to comment on!

Most of the time each sides position lacks the common sense to take each case on its merrit. (As your examples do not prove anything)

Jokes are not a justification for violent action (I thought this archaic thinking went away with people thinking that the Three Stooges, Road Runner, and Bugs Bunny caused violence) Normaly it is just a stupid defense to try and show that a person is not responsible for their own actions.

*That's because you're one of the ones on top.*

Should I call this reverse descrimination?
Should I call this intollerance to others views.
I don't know, the United Caucasion College fund never did give me money!

I find it funny/amazing that you have judged me to be on top because I disagree with your position.

I find it funny that you judge me without knowing me!

This is the kind of knee jerk reaction that drives supporters of your position away.

In many instances I agree with you...

However I will not support you as long as you do not use your arguments intelligently, as long as you offend and attack those with a difference of oppinion you are really not that much different than those you rail against.

That is why I find the jokes funny.
One must be able to laugh at themselves.
As soon as you draw the line in the sand you become like the Muslems that wanted the teacher killed for naming the pet dog Mohamed.

A dialog and common sense are needed, but if I am intollerant or anti anything because my views don't agree with you... so be it, I am, and you will just have to learn to live with it because it is the foundation of this country.

This MOMMY state that some are trying to produce is what offends ME!

I would spend a lifetime protecting your right to say what you say, even though it goes against every fiber in my being.

Learn what freedom means,adjust your arguments accordingly, and I will support you!

Use the same tactics as your opponents and you are no better!


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## Kreth (Mar 20, 2008)

I think I'd only have an issue if the person in question had to dominate every topic of conversation with their sexual orientation. That's not a MA thing, just a general pet peeve of mine. 
On another note, given the general subject of "squid" jokes, it's amusing to see a "navy vet" tossing around the pejoratives.


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## tellner (Mar 20, 2008)

Kacey and Tez, I've gotten the "Brother, have you heard of Jayzus" stuff, in class. As if any Jew living closer than Neptune could have failed to hear it with mind-numbing regularity. 

At various times Jews for Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the nice young LDS missionaries and the Baptists (a few years ago when the SBC started its campaign to inform Jews about the existence of Christianity) have come to my house trying to buy my soul. How the Baptists knew that a Jew was living in that particular house is a question I find disturbing. Sometimes they kept coming back. In earlier days I had to learn to fight dirty and vicious because some couldn't take "No" or even "Hell, no!" for an answer. 

Sometimes it's spilled over into martial arts classes. A few times it was part of the school ethos. You learn to avoid places like that. Sometimes it was bad actors at the school. Usually grown ups were grown up about it, but not always. 

The gays have never tried to convert me to anything. The couple times a guy made a pass at me - not in any way connected to the martial arts - a simple "No thank you," worked just fine. I'm willing to bet that every woman here has had more trouble turning down an eager straight man at some point. 

The most activist GLBT types I've met, and I've known a number of pretty serious ones, want to be left alone to live their lives with the same rights and privileges that straight people take for granted. Oh, and they'd like to do it without having to fear losing their civil rights, jobs, homes and lives if it isn't too much trouble. I don't know anyone in BRO, Lambda LDF or HRC who wants to force heterosexuals to work the other side of the street. The list of heterosexuals who are willing to try forced conversion therapy via rape is a tad longer.

The fundies - festering lice on the Body of whichever religion they happen to infest - have a different idea of acceptance and tolerance for _their_ chosen lifestyle. They often want to force people on pain of death to believe and do exactly what they do. They're much more likely to, say, torture, exile or kill you if you don't toe the line. That was the choice given to my grandparents and great-grandparents. They left. The ones who didn't died at the hands of the Czars and Dolf's All-Boy Marching Band. If they decide that you need to be shown the Truth they will keep at it with the mindless ferocity of a little yappy dog going after a squeak toy. If you don't comply you could end up like the squeak toy.

I'd rather have the gays around, thank you very much. I've never seen them burn a lambda on someone's lawn. I've never been set on by a gang of lesbians and beaten bloody, although one hears that there are people who will pay a lot of cash money for something along those lines. I have gone through similar when members of the Bride of Christ decided to impart the Love of G-d to me on the point of a fist.

Living in Condition Yellow is fine. That's one of the goals of all good martial arts training. Living in Condition Orange because your fundie neighbors and fellow citizens have shot up your house again is not so nice. You can't maintain it for long without suffering permanent organic changes to the brain. Living in Condition Fuschia, otherwise known as "Oh Lord, here comes that swishy gay diva drama-queen _again_", is irritating but bearable


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## DArnold (Mar 20, 2008)

tellner said:


> Kacey and Tez, I've gotten the "Brother, have you heard of Jayzus" stuff, in class. As if any Jew living closer than Neptune could have failed to hear it with mind-numbing regularity.
> 
> At various times Jews for Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the nice young LDS missionaries and the Baptists (a few years ago when the SBC started its campaign to inform Jews about the existence of Christianity) have come to my house trying to buy my soul. How the Baptists knew that a Jew was living in that particular house is a question I find disturbing. Sometimes they kept coming back. In earlier days I had to learn to fight dirty and vicious because some couldn't take "No" or even "Hell, no!" for an answer.
> 
> ...


 
WOW do you have a lot of pent up anger!
Good luck


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2008)

The Master said:


> It is truly enlightening to see individuals true selves revealed, in their choice of words.
> 
> Who one finds of interest is of as little interest to me as who they prefer in the general elections, or their preference of drink. What matters is, their desire to learn and teach, nothing more. As long as they are not a sexual predator, a criminal or in general an ****, and have good hygiene, I would be happy to share a floor with them.
> 
> ...


 

At my age I'd be grateful indeed if anyone at all stared at my bum.


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## tellner (Mar 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> At my age I'd be grateful indeed if anyone at all stared at my bum.


 
Stare at your bum?

You married him, you get to stare at him


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 20, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?



Our club does not have anyone that I know of who is gay or lesbian.

I have never had a gay/lesbian instructor.

I have trained with gay/lesbian students.

I know of one club that is owned by a lesbian. She is my friend. So is her partner. So are many of her students (* friends of mine *) be they gay/lesbian or straight.

It has never been an issue with me and no one I know of has made it an issue either.


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## Kacey (Mar 20, 2008)

tellner said:


> The gays have never tried to convert me to anything.



I believe that's what I said - that it's never been an issue in the dojang.  I did not mention other settings - although it's never been an issue in other settings either - because the discussion is about homosexuals in the MA setting, and I didn't think any other setting was relevant.  Neither has religion ever been an issue in the class - outside of class, yes, but never in a MA setting.


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## terryl965 (Mar 20, 2008)

Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things


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## DArnold (Mar 20, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things


 
See post #6


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2008)

tellner said:


> Stare at your bum?
> 
> You married him, you get to stare at him


 

:lfao:


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 21, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> There were a few reports to the mod team about the use of the word "queer" in this thread.
> 
> We're discussing the matter.
> 
> ...



During the coarse of this thread I've seen another use the same word, Tellner, why no out cry when he used the word, could it be that a lot here are intolerant of views that are conservative??
Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads

And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 21, 2008)

tellner said:


> Hmm, first "macho" and "gay" aren't necessarily exclusive. Far from it. Consider Sparta and Ernst Rohm just to start with.
> 
> I don't know if there are any openly gay students currently. Most people don't talk about sexuality very much in class. There have been gay, lesbian and bisexual students in the past. I've trained in schools where the teacher was an out lesbian. When we taught women's self defense there were plenty of bi and lesbian students and the occasional transitioning male to female. I'm sure there have been others I don't know about. It isn't relevant to class and would be rude to ask.
> 
> ...



Notice the 3rd paragraph.
Tellner, not picking on you just wanted to make a point.


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## tellner (Mar 21, 2008)

Why no outcry? Well, "queer" is a very slippery term that can be an insult or not depending on context and who is saying it. Used by an unfriendly person as an insult it means one thing. Used by people who are basically friendly or sympathetic it is an accepted shorthand for "Homosexual men, lesbians, bisexuals, the transgendered, cross-dressing heterosexuals, sometimes BDSM afficionados and anyone whose baseline sexuality is considered outside the mainstream". 

Terms like "queer-friendly" or "genderqueer" are accepted within that broad spectrum. Their use is not considered insulting or offensive by the people to whom they refer. "To hell with the damned queers" is a much different proposition than "...anyone who is queer-positive has had to grapple with..." Given the tenor of my postings pretty much anyone covered by the term would say that it's an acceptable use of the word. 

Some Black people (for instance) use terms for members of their ethnicity which would cause them to consider violence if uttered by someone not of African descent. At least a couple of those trapped by MT's profanity filter. By contrast, the use of "queer" in a positive or inclusive manner by conventional (boring) straight people is often considered perfectly fine and unobjectionable by members of that list of diverse sexualities. It's a single syllable that neatly encapsulates a range of terms that would otherwise make conversation on the topic impossible. 

In other words, navyvet, you aren't going to get a cheap easy score off of this one. I'm being careful to use the term in a way which is generally considered acceptable and polite by members of the large group to which it refers.


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## grydth (Mar 21, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> During the coarse of this thread I've seen another use the same word, Tellner, why no out cry when he used the word, could it be that a lot here are intolerant of views that are conservative??
> Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads
> 
> And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.



With respect to "the word"........ you could also point out that gay people themselves have used it for quite some time. But so have those that hate them. Maybe you should not expect the moderators to try and figure out your intent.

I despise Politikal Korrectness, its simply fascism and mind control with a far left slant. Tossing that aside, though, using "the word" probably detracts from the point(s) you are trying to make... and from a standpoint of effective communications and productive debate - why use it?


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## Drac (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things


 
A very intellegent question...


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## elder999 (Mar 21, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads
> 
> And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.


..


You could be right that a majority of people here lean to the left, but there are those who get along quite well expressing a broad spectrum of  conservative viewpoints in a sharing, rather than hostile or offensive manner. For myself, while many would think of me as "left-leaning," I should point out that not only are most of my viewpoints independent of ideology-as in being pro-choice (it's not much business of mine) and anti-gun control (.....from my cold, dead hand)...back in New York, I was a registered Republican. I voted for George HW Bush-he really pissed me off, though, and along the way changed my point of view about how a few things are done in this country, I still contribute to both the Democratic and Republican party-if it's good enough for major corporations, it's good enough for me. (Don't ask why; it's a topic for another thread....) I'm no longer registered with either party, though most people think I'm some sort of libertarian milleniallist who lives in a bunker waiting for the inevitable downslide into total chaos.....maybe I am.

As for "the word,"while I'm not on your side, I already posted that I could understand your confusion: heck, my daughter's a lesbian, and she calls herself a variety of things that some might find offensive, and I find a bit confusing. I find the same thing hanging out with my gay friends, colleagues and students-male and female-so I just stick to "gay," which, however "grossly misused,"( and I'd like to know what that means as well) seems to be safe enough, and what most of those "hitting for the other team" (is THAT offensive?) seem to want to be called, most of the time.

And, see Tellner's post on the use of "the word"; it can and has been used for a variety of people across the sexual spectrum,including many who are otherwise heterosexual. That's not how you used it, though, and when you use it in such a general, plural sense, it can only be construed as a perjorative against a whole class of people who are doing nothing to harm you, as you've sort of pointed out.

Your continued use of the words "life style," as in "that life style," and "force me to accept their life style" (what exactly does that mean, anyway? Is this a fear of attempted forced "conversion to perversion" :lol: ) is indicative of a kind of blindered intolerance as well, and somewhat offensive.  I don't know how many of the openly (and perhaps not so openly ) gay  people you've offended here, because only one has contributed to this thread, AFAIK, but I'm fairly certain that being gay is not a "life style," though it can be accompanied by a certain life style. Being gay is usually something a person is born with-promiscuity is a "life style," for example,and a whole other topic. 

BTW, "navyvet," odds are good you showered with a gay man or three in the Navy, and probably rolled or sparred with someone who's gay in your martial arts class, but keeping it quiet for fear of the bigotry of those like yourself.


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## Drac (Mar 21, 2008)

elder999 said:


> ..BTW, "navyvet," odds are good you showered with a gay man or three in the Navy, and probably rolled or sparred with someone who's gay in your martial arts class, but keeping it quiet for fear of the bigotry of those like yourself.


 
Bravo well said...


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## gkygrl (Mar 21, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> This is an important point. I can understand pairing according to rank, but even then, you sometimes should train with partners above and below your level. If your instructor doesn't EVER pair you with someone else to train with, you're losing out. I understand it's only been 5 weeks since you started, but keep it in mind as time goes on and you progress. It's one thing to have a regular training partner, it's another to have only ONE training partner.



We are typically paired with men and higher rank.   But for particular ground survival exercises that involved a straddling position ... we were paired up by gender by the Grand Master that was teaching us that particular exercise.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> During the coarse of this thread I've seen another use the same word, Tellner, why no out cry when he used the word, could it be that a lot here are intolerant of views that are conservative??
> Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads
> 
> And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.


It's being discussed, and the use is considered offensive by some therefore we are not allowing it's use in certain contexts.

*
Begin Blanket Statement*

If you don't like the political atmosphere here, you are welcome to frequent other sites which might be better suited to your views, and join those who we've ejected because we wouldn't let them swear/libel/defame/bully etc.  This site is intended to be a friendly one, and not one for macho madness or dick measuring. 

This site's staff either now or in the past has included at least 2 people that I know of who were involved in same-sex relations. I know of 10 other members as well over the years who have mentioned that fact to me, usually after we've banned some closed minded hate spewing bigot. Site Staff has also included every major ethnic group including white, black, asian and indian, as well as Christians, Jews, Muslims and Pagans. Every political party in the US is in the mix, including the Constitution party, Right To Life, Green, Libertarian, and the main ones.

These people are all my friends, and this site *will *be one that welcomes them all. If you have a paranoia about any of these groups, feel the need to lash out at them and make them feel unwelcome here, then you'll find yourself the unwelcome one.

It's not "political correctness", it's manners and respect. Something good martial arts training and personal development should include.
*
End Blanket Statement.*


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## gkygrl (Mar 21, 2008)

DArnold said:


> I love sexist, racist, anti-gay, white, black, mexican, women, men, religious, moral, political.... jokes.
> 
> For example I can belive that the sexes are not equal, but that does not make me a sexist...
> 
> I find the whole offense-sensitivity and P.C. crap offending.



DArnold -- I don't get your answer .... you find offense-sensitivity and P.C crap offensive?  And you are not a sexist???  Who are you trying to kid?

What are you then -- and loving the jokes and just fueling them just fuels hate in different sectors.    

With all due respect, you sound to me like one of those people sitting on the fence who can't be bothered.


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## gkygrl (Mar 21, 2008)

elder999 said:


> ..
> 
> 
> Your continued use of the words "life style," as in "that life style," and "force me to accept their life style" (what exactly does that mean, anyway? Is this a fear of attempted forced "conversion to perversion" :lol: ) is indicative of a kind of blindered intolerance as well, and somewhat offensive.  I don't know how many of the openly (and perhaps not so openly ) gay  people you've offended here, because only one has contributed to this thread, AFAIK, but I'm fairly certain that being gay is not a "life style," though it can be accompanied by a certain life style. Being gay is usually something a person is born with-promiscuity is a "life style," for example,and a whole other topic.



Being Gay is definitely not a "lifestyle" -- a "lifestyle" is something that involves choice ... being gay is not a choice (it's the way a person is "wired").   I would never have chosen to be gay and walk against the tide.   Heck, what girl does not dream of a nice fancy wedding being given away by her Dad, etc.   It took me a long time (and 2 fiances - God bless them) to really understand and accept what being Gay was.  I am not afraid to share here -- I've made some nice friends and this is a safe place.

Saying being Gay is a lifestyle is like saying being born in France is a lifestyle.   It's the way things are, have always been, and will always be.


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It's being discussed, and the use is considered offensive by some therefore we are not allowing it's use in certain contexts.
> 
> *
> Begin Blanket Statement*
> ...



How do I feel about it? It doesn't matter at all. Sometimes queer students have particular personal issues that affect their training in the same way that anyone can. It's either a big deal or not depending on whether it interferes with class. The same can be said for all people.

This was used in the contexts of alternative lifestyles, read tellners (Complete) post again.
Why don't the mod's just ban the word then? Because it wouldn't be fair for some to use the word, much like some can use the "N" word and some can't in this world.

As far as everything else you wrote,Bob, do what you gotta do, I've never singled out anybody on these threads, i don't know of anybodies sexual preference, I've been called names, been cursed at, people's tried to belittle me all on these boards, did those people get reprimanded by the Mod's ? I didn't WHINE to ANYBODY about any of it, so who knows,  When i 1st started reading the threads on this forum i really thought  it was a good place for free thought (as long as people did not get singled out) well i was wrong.  If your political ideologies are different from the majority, then yours needs to be dampened. If your with the majority, then say what the hell you feel.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2008)

It seems that Bobs message wasn't clear to some, so I'll be a bit more blunt.

There are many words used to describe things, some more fitting than others.  If someone can't use a more polite word to describe what they want to say, then perhaps nothing should be said at all.  

This forums rules are in place for everyone, not a select few.  One thing to keep in mind, is that like a police officer, the mods of this forum can't be everywhere all the time.  I'm sure everyone is familiar with the rules here.  If not, I suggest reading up on them, as they can be found in a link at the top of the page.  If someone is having a problem with a member or a post, there is a protocol to follow, which is to report the post and let the mods deal with it.  It is also not policy to discuss any actions that have been taken with members, with other members of the forum.

This forum is probably one of the most fair ones out there, but as its been said by Bob...if people do not like certain things here, you're welcome to frequent those sites that share your views.

So..before this thread gets closed, lets return to the discussion at hand, and attempt to choose our wording so as to not offend anyone.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


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## geezer (Mar 21, 2008)

Have any of you noticed that those on one side of this debate tend to be well reasoned and articulate, while the opposing side seems barely literate and lacking a command of basic syntax and grammar? Or, is this just my biased nature erupting again?


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## elder999 (Mar 21, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have any of you noticed that those on one side of this debate tend to be well reasoned and articulate, while the opposing side seems barely literate and lacking a command of basic syntax and grammar? Or, is this just my biased nature erupting again?


 
There is no debate-in terms of your original post, every poster-man, woman, gay or straight-has said it doesn't make any difference....

....maybe "some"  of them are _lying,_ though. :lol:


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 21, 2008)

geezer said:


> Have any of you noticed that those on one side of this debate tend to be well reasoned and articulate, while the opposing side seems barely literate and lacking a command of basic syntax and grammar? Or, is this just my biased nature erupting again?



Isn't it great to have carte blanche with regards as to what you say to people.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> Isn't it great to have carte blanche with regards as to what you say to people.


Yes, because we feed neo-cons to neo-leos and actively seek out such views as yours for active termination.
/sarcasm


We have posted rules
If you aren't going to follow them, then leave.
If your intent is to disrupt us, insult us, bash us, slam us, you're time here will be short.
There is a big difference between saying "Those queers there" and "Did anyone watch "Queer Eye last night?"
If you're too uneducated to understand the difference, I suggest education.

Since we're at the point of "2x4 to the head" bluntness, I will be so.
Using the word "queer" to refer to those involved in same-gender relationships is not acceptable.
..Unless you are in fact so.
....and probably not even then.

Using it in a scholastic or historical context, is acceptable.


We welcome polite debate and intelligent discourse, not bigoted or antiquated thinking.

Before you earn a ban, you might wish to review those rules.

End of discussion.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things



Oh, Yes Sir, this has been shown to be meaningless now.  There is no such putting down people in the Dojang -- not for long, not for long.

But yet we go on with this thread?  Why?  Because new ideas keep coming up, new matters peripheral to the original post.  The original post, as I see it, has now been addressed, and I think its false.

What about acceptance of others in life OUTSIDE of the Dojang?  This is a bigger thing.

I will say that I have read some Vedic book, the Bhagavad-Gita.  I will not go in to how I came across this, except to say that the people who were involved would serve very tasty food, without asking any money, and I had some prior experience with some ha-tha yoga poses which had a big effect on me, so my curiosity was there to investigate about the culture of India.

In this book it was said something like this:  "The Guru does not discriminate between a dog, a beggar, and a yogi."  That means -- all of the living creatures are of value, not only the humans.  This is an example of very high thinking, the thoughts of One Who Knows the Truth.

I have a VERY SMALL aptitude for spiritual things, but this particular book has been around for a LONG TIME, so that matters. 

Now, I watch the movie "Best of the Best", and there is some character in there who is a "redneck guy".  He shows no respect for others.  He even kicks his opponent during the bowing.  Most people have contempt for this character, but I can see a certain loveliness about him.  I can see value in this character. 

When someone says, "Oh -- you are intolerant of <insert_some_kind_of_label_here> and you are less than us!  You suck!"

That is the same thing -- it is intolerance itself.

The highest path is to TRY to be accepting of all -- better yet, to see the true value in all.  Not easy to do, right?

And yes, there ARE some people who have to be locked up in jail, BECAUSE THEY MEAN TO DO US HARM.  But that is a special (corner) case.

If this sounds "high and mighty", haha, I'll let you know that I am NOT the kind of person to "preach" to people.  I have enough trouble to try to negotiate life day to day myself.


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2008)

Some people believe the right to free speech is granted in private arenas. Not necessarily so.

Some people equate the right to free speech with the right to say whatever the **** they want, use whatever term they want whenever and wherever they want with reckless abandon.

Not so.

That's like a teenager using a $500 cel phone to hammer a nail because it's his phone and it's his right to do with it as he pleases.  Sure it is - but this doesn't make a lot of sense, is inefficient and just plain ignorant.  

What an abuse of a perfectly good electronic device. If only some folks would not abuse their rights to abuse others.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 21, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Some people believe the right to free speech is granted in private arenas. Not necessarily so.


No, and this is not what I meant.


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> No, and this is not what I meant.


Please consider my post a blanket statement as well.  :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 21, 2008)

Please note, since we're all getting covered by these blankets, that we will not be implimenting a strict boy-girl policy, so if you're concerned about who you might be cuddling up against, you may wish to wear protection.

LOL!



I've worked out with several people who were gay, and probably a few more who were bi or that I didn't know. It doesn't bother me. I will admit to having 1 hit on me after a vigorous grappling bout that did leave me a bit squicked about 15 years ago, but I got over it quick and let them know I wasn't interested. It didn't effect our friendship.  In the last 2 years, I've dealt with probably 50+ people who are gay or bi. They are people, like everyone else. Tall, short, skinny, fat, smart and dumb. They are simply wired a little differently. Oh, and for those wondering, no, I'm not. I photograph that which I like and you'll notice I mostly shoot females. LOL! And landscapes. But I will admit to hugging a tree here n there.


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## bigfootsquatch (Mar 21, 2008)

You know, if people would just shut up and train.....
I'm a conservative Christian. I don't care about anyone's sexuality in either of the schools I train. There was nothing on the sign up sheet at either school asking my sexuality. I don't see what the big deal is. The only instructors I would not train under are those who's teaching preferences I did not like. My instructors(or fellow students) sexuality, religion, political orientation, etc...does not concern me, as I am not there to learn about their personal lives. (Granted, if I meet new people and make new friends that is a plus, but that's not my intent when I step into the dojo).


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## tellner (Mar 21, 2008)

As long as it's not my wife, little children, cadavers or barnyard animals (unless you are a consenting barnyard animal of course) it's none of my business whom you make happy naked fun time with. I also don't care about which church you go to, what you eat or if you smoke where I'm not currently breathing the same air. Heck, I don't even care all that much what species of leaf you stick into your pipe as long as it's not in my house. That's your business.

"Long on tolerance. Short on patience. Generally willing to forgive."
There are worse mottoes.


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## terryl965 (Mar 21, 2008)

You know over forty years of training I worked out with all kinds do I mind not at all. Now here is another story that jsut eats at me.

I am 5'9" and wiegh about 260 right now so I am short and fat or pleasantly plump, whichever you prfer, at anyrate the other day this young man comes in and ask I can I speak to the head instructor and my wife say sure he is the gentleman on the floor, he turn and saids out load that cannot be the head instuctor he is fat and out of shape. My class stopped and look at him and I walked ove rextended my hand to shake his and he says come on I am looking for the head instructor and I say well that would be me. He begins to laugh and says you cannot teach me anything, I said I am sure you know alot and his reply is no but I know if I came at you there would be nothing you could do. A few seconds pass and another student say attack and see, so he looked at my and threw a punch towards my chest I opened hand block hooked the arm and sweeped him to the ground.  Afte he got up he said lucky move and I said to him I must be one of the luckiest man on this earth aand he looked at me and then said why. My comment was because I will never ever teach you or anybody like you, guess what he is a student and he is learning proper speaking skills. *What does this have to do with this thread is simple we can all change if we really won't to. So why don't some of you try it and see what type of response you will get here, this is a great place for all people and types of MA. I hate to loose people over common stupidity.*

Take care and lets enjoy each others views.


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## gkygrl (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Take care and lets enjoy each others views.



This is a good way to sum up the thread, learn about opening our minds and eyes and taking the time to grow.

Isn't MA about growing, learning and getting better?  Challenges come in many shapes and forms.   Wouldn't it be cool if the growth could spill over into all parts of our lives?

For me, that's what I am looking for -- an MA lifestyle that I take on by choice and leads me to growth and reach for personal challenges.  That's why I started and probably why I will stay.  To reach past my own challenges and work towards new ones.

Yes, take care and let's enjoy and respect the views here.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> A few seconds pass and another student say attack and see



Ha!




terryl965 said:


> guess what he is a student and he is learning proper speaking skills.


You now teach him TaeKwonDo?


terryl965 said:


> *What does this have to do with this thread is simple we can all change if we really won't to. So why don't some of you try it and see what type of response you will get here, this is a great place for all people and types of MA. I hate to loose people over common stupidity.*
> 
> Take care and lets enjoy each others views.



Right!


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## terryl965 (Mar 21, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Ha!
> 
> 
> You now teach him TaeKwonDo?
> ...


 
of course


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## newGuy12 (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> of course



I have heard of this happening before, someone has to be shown for sure before the believe!  Nothing like the Earth itself hitting someone to remove the doubt!  The floor does not bend a whole lot!


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## terryl965 (Mar 21, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> I have heard of this happening before, someone has to be shown for sure before the believe! Nothing like the Earth itself hitting someone to remove the doubt! The floor does not bend a whole lot!


 
Well we have matted floors so it was not as hard


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## newGuy12 (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Well we have matted floors so it was not as hard


No, but hard enough! :supcool:


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## tellner (Mar 21, 2008)

> _Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things_


Hmm, voltures....


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 21, 2008)

I'm a zoonecrophiliac, and enjoy getting naked with road kill. Hasn't affected my training any. Of course, I smell poorly sometimes, but other than that...

So what would preference have to do with anything?


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 21, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I'm a zoonecrophiliac, and enjoy getting naked with road kill. Hasn't affected my training any. Of course, I smell poorly sometimes, but other than that...
> 
> So what would preference have to do with anything?



That's Hot! Can I hide in a corner and watch.


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## tellner (Mar 22, 2008)

Freezer burn. After a while gangrene sets in. You start to stink, and sloughed tissue is impossible to get out of a white gi. It's very inconsiderate.


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## DArnold (Mar 22, 2008)

gkygrl said:


> DArnold -- I don't get your answer .... you find offense-sensitivity and P.C crap offensive? And you are not a sexist??? Who are you trying to kid?
> What are you then -- and loving the jokes and just fueling them just fuels hate in different sectors.
> With all due respect, you sound to me like one of those people sitting on the fence who can't be bothered.


 
Nope, I'm bothered all the time.
I am active in causes, politics, and comedy!

I'm bothered by those who throw out these terms because how dare you have an opinion different then theirs.  If you do you are sexist, racist...

(I knew someone would grab the hook!)

I did not say men were better than women or
women were better than men.
I said that they are not equal.
I do not live in a homoginous society (thank god).

There will always be a minority and inequality, wake up.

I'm offended by those that everytime a joke is told they become offended. Why, because they are on a crusade for their cause. WELLLL TOOO BAD.

That I have to walk on pins and needles because you may be offended is crap.  This insenitivity is brought on by the overbearing offense-sensitivity that some force on you (The tollerance generation).

I don't have to be tollerant if I disagree with you!


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 22, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Nope, I'm bothered all the time.
> I am active in causes, politics, and comedy!
> 
> I'm bothered by those who throw out these terms because how dare you have an opinion different then theirs.  If you do you are sexist, racist...
> ...



That's what I'm talking about! The PC & Tolerance crowd can go around as pouting their vitriol and intolerance and the minute a Christian or conservative speaks their mind then all hell breaks loose, they click their little red triangle and you get stood in the corner. Mark my word, one day the world will wake up and the industry of "Big" tolerance and "Big" Pc will be ashamed to open their mouths.


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## gkygrl (Mar 22, 2008)

DArnold said:


> Nope, I'm bothered all the time.
> I am active in causes, politics, and comedy!
> 
> I'm bothered by those who throw out these terms because how dare you have an opinion different then theirs.  If you do you are sexist, racist...
> ...



You do sound a little angry and a lot bothered.    

Using humor to belittle someone or a group of people because of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc is just a sign of insecurity.    People use humor and joking when they are nervous and they don't understand something.     Jokes distance ... laughter is a very strong defense mechanism.   People use defense mechanisms for a lot of reasons.

I'll leave it at that because I am not out to bother you more.  I would hope that if we were taking a class together in the same Dojang, we would practice together with respect and integrity without pushing anything on each other ... just doing what were there to do.  Focus on our martial art and focus on our own personal journey.


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2008)

Apparently, despite a number of warnings, some are not getting the message.

*THREAD CLOSED FOR REVIEW!*

*MIKE SLOSEK*
*MT ASST. ADMIN*


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