# Fighting with just your hands!



## Tony (Jun 21, 2004)

Lets say you are in a hypothetical situation where for some reason you have to defend yourself but you can only use your hands because you might have jeans that are too tight fitting and they were the only clean pair could find, or you're not very flexible, you have a knee injury but the point is you can't use your legs.
In a situation like this Wing Chun would be ideal as it is mostly close in fighting with a lot of hand work, just like Praying Mantis and I think Aikido could be used effectively if you are an expert at that.
How would you all deal with such an encounter, especially if your strength is your ability to use your legs?


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## KenpoTex (Jun 21, 2004)

If, for whatever reason you are unable to "use your legs" you're going to be in a "world of hurt."  Even in a system that doesn't use kicks as extensively as others, stances and foot-maneuvers are of prime importance.  As far as what I'd do, If my legs (or for that matter, any part of my body) was injured or out of commission, I'm obviously at a disadvantage, therefore I'm immediately going to attack with the intent of putting my opponent "down for the count"  In other words, treat it like you would any other threatening situation and go for sensitive/vital targets (throat, eyes, groin, knees, solar-plex, etc.).


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## Gary Crawford (Jun 21, 2004)

use your hands to grab a weapon!lol! I would use claws and eyestrikes if I had to.Lots of possibilities.


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> use your hands to grab a weapon!lol! I would use claws and eyestrikes if I had to.Lots of possibilities.



Yeah, I gotta go with Gary on that one.  If you can grab something and use it, why not.  Then again, with the discussions that we've had on here regarding use of force, etc. who knows if grabbing something is the best option.  I agree with the claws and eyestrikes though.  Doing an open handed strike could prevent an injury that you may sustain from punching someone.  Doing a controlling lock or limb destruction are 2 other options as well.

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jun 21, 2004)

I'd try  to use awareness to back that sucker into a corner and keep him at close range where mobility and kicks aren't an issue. Turn on combinations, heel palm, backfist, jab, cross, hook and uppercut. Lots of angles.


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## SenseiGR (Jun 21, 2004)

In Okinawan/Japanese karate hand techniques are stressed over kicking.

It may be that you're on icy or otherwise slippery footing, or you were attacked while sitting.  You should train for all conditions.  I've sparred using only kicks, only punches, not using one leg or arm, etc.  Why train for the same conditions every time?


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## OC Kid (Jun 21, 2004)

Shouldnt be a problem as in any good system a student should be profiecient with his hands and his feet.


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## Trent (Jun 21, 2004)

It wouldn't affect us very much.  Often times we have everyone wear jeans to class.  Our legs are used primarily for proper power generation, foot traps, gaining angle of incidence, low level strikes and locking up the other person's large joints (elbow, shoulder, head/neck, knee) with our legs.


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## shesulsa (Jun 21, 2004)

I always wear something I can do something in.  Martial arts rules my wardrobe!    Truly - even if I'm wearing a dress, I'm prepared if I have to kick someone...I never wear spiked heels.

Now, I've had a knee injury and had surgery...I made use of a cane for a long time...very good for dealing with an opponent's legs.


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## Flatlander (Jun 21, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Yeah, I gotta go with Gary on that one. If you can grab something and use it, why not.* Then again, with the discussions that we've had on here regarding use of force, etc. who knows if grabbing something is the best option.* I agree with the claws and eyestrikes though. Doing an open handed strike could prevent an injury that you may sustain from punching someone. Doing a controlling lock or limb destruction are 2 other options as well.
> 
> Mike


Hey, this is an awesome point here.  Does being disadvataged change the context of use of force for the defender?  Does this provide justification to "up the heat"?


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Hey, this is an awesome point here.  Does being disadvataged change the context of use of force for the defender?  Does this provide justification to "up the heat"?



Thats a good question!  If you had an elderly person who walked with a cane, and he/she used it in SD, would that have a negative look in the eyes of the law?? 

Mike


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 21, 2004)

In my experience, people who go around causing trouble--and this is a very general statement--don't really know how to fight. In addition, they usually target individuals that they believe will be intimidated, and/or perceive to be weaker than themselves. So, to answer the question, I would just use regular old muay thai, but I'd do the same as kenpotex: ". . ._I'm immediately going to attack with the intent of putting my opponent "down for the count_". . ." I think this type of person (bad guy) is less inclined to expect an aggressive reaction, so when that happens--and happens fast, most times the B.G. is thrown off-guard. My $.02.

AJ


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 21, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thats a good question! If you had an elderly person who walked with a cane, and he/she used it in SD, would that have a negative look in the eyes of the law??
> 
> Mike


I know a lot of cops. There's not a single one that I can think of who would look down on an elderly/disabled person for using everything they had to defend themselves in a situation where they were being assaulted/battered/robbed, etc. Most the cops I know actually have pretty good sense of humor, they'd probably find it somewhat amusing, if not out-right hilarious. Sheesh. . .for a bad guy, what a blow to the ego!:boing2: 





AJ


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## MA-Caver (Jun 21, 2004)

I was speaking with someone about this earlier today... what a coinencidence.
I explained (imo) that the whole body is the weapon. To narrow it down we actually have 8 weapons that we use... Two hands, two elbows, Two knees and two feet (with arms and legs as the delivery devices). Even if we were in a position where we would be unable to use our feet (longest weapon, the thigh muscle/bone), by turning our hips/shoulders, back and so forth our hands are not the only thing to come into play. 
What I read is a very simplified concept of using fists or feet as primary (natural) weaponry. Understanding that the whole helps out the individual parts will go a long way in being able to utilize the entire body to achieve one's goals.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 22, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Hey, this is an awesome point here.  Does being disadvataged change the context of use of force for the defender?  Does this provide justification to "up the heat"?





			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Thats a good question! If you had an elderly person who walked with a cane, and he/she used it in SD, would that have a negative look in the eyes of the law?



In my opinion, being injured, incapacitated, or otherwise disadvantaged _is_ justification to use a higher level of force whether that means a different type of technique (strikes to the throat, knees, or other techniques that inflict serious damage), or the use of a weapon.  Think of it this way: a weapon is a force-multiplier used to compensate for a disparity of force on the part of the participants.  In other words, if I'm fighting a guy that's exactly the same size and strength and who possesses an equal level of skill but he has a weapon, I am at a disadvantage.  Therefore I would be justified in using a weapon to negate his advantage.  Along the same lines, if fighter "A" is a woman that is 5' tall and 100 lbs. and fighter "B" is a man that's 6'4" tall and 250 lbs.  fighter "A" (the woman) would, in most cases, be justified, due to the disparity of force, in using a weapon even if fighter "B" was unarmed.  Continuing this logic, if I am fighing someone the same size, strength, etc. as me but I am injured or otherwise disadvantaged, I would, in most cases, be justified in using a weapon to compensate for my opponent's advantage.

Interestingly enough, we dealt with this issue in class earlier tonight.  We were doing some spontaneous fighting (similar to sparring but anything goes: locks, take-downs, etc.) and the instructor had us do one round in which we could not use our legs (in other words, no kicks, knees, or sweeps).  Then we did a round were we could not use our arms or hands.  For me, it was much harder to "give up" the use of my hands that it was to not use my feet.  Obviously, if you are injured or incapacitated to the point where you're not even mobile you've got problems.  If it's just an issue of whether or not you can kick (tight pants, bad footwear, etc.) I still feel comfortable with my abilty to respond effectively using only my hands to strike.


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## theletch1 (Jun 22, 2004)

We've done drills from being seated in a chair where you could not rise from the chair to defend yourself.  You can actually defend yourself fairly well with just your hands using locks, joint breaks and throws.  Picture yourself seated at a table in a restaurant and some lunatic comes across the table at you.  Your legs are under the table and it's one of those bench type seats that you can't push away from the table.  Example:  Straight lunge for your throat with both hands, both of your hands come up inside attackers arms parrying them away from his center, your hands continue their upward momentum grasping the back of his head and SLAM his face into the table, lean forward taking control of his right wrist with your left, right arm slides into a guillotine choke.  Now you can slide out of the seat and take control of the situation on your feet.  Just one example but it does show that the hands can be used alone to defend yourself with.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 23, 2004)

Excellent example and something I forgot to mention, we have done the same type of thing.  Another one we have done on occasion is to have two people go into one of the dressing-rooms (stalls that are about 3' square) to fight.  The extreme-close range pretty much eliminates the possibilty of using kicks and other "long-range" weapons.


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## MJS (Jun 23, 2004)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> We've done drills from being seated in a chair where you could not rise from the chair to defend yourself.  You can actually defend yourself fairly well with just your hands using locks, joint breaks and throws.  Picture yourself seated at a table in a restaurant and some lunatic comes across the table at you.  Your legs are under the table and it's one of those bench type seats that you can't push away from the table.  Example:  Straight lunge for your throat with both hands, both of your hands come up inside attackers arms parrying them away from his center, your hands continue their upward momentum grasping the back of his head and SLAM his face into the table, lean forward taking control of his right wrist with your left, right arm slides into a guillotine choke.  Now you can slide out of the seat and take control of the situation on your feet.  Just one example but it does show that the hands can be used alone to defend yourself with.



Doing drills like this is excellent!!!  Its something important because not every situation is going to be standing, facing your opp.  Obviously in this example given, the people are sitting down and then the attack starts.   It definately keeps the mind open and constantly thinking.

Mike


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## Fightfan00 (Jun 23, 2004)

just using your hands you can do some nice eye gouging or poking,some arm bars,and even some throwing.But i'll tell these hypothetical situations are touchy because i'm in a real situation I think it wouldnt matter about how new your clothes were or you wanted to keep yourself clean you would whatever means possible to win and get out of the situation.


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## theletch1 (Jun 23, 2004)

Fightfan00 said:
			
		

> just using your hands you can do some nice eye gouging or poking,some arm bars,and even some throwing.But i'll tell these hypothetical situations are touchy because i'm in a real situation I think it wouldnt matter about how new your clothes were or you wanted to keep yourself clean you would whatever means possible to win and get out of the situation.


Check out my example of sitting at a table.  There will be food and drinks all over the table.  I don't think anyone that is serious about self defense is gonna worry about getting their clothes mess up when vanity could cost them their life.


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## 8253 (Jun 23, 2004)

if it goes that far, i would just hope to survive the encounter.  Without you legs if is very hard to fight.  Not impossible though.  Besides when your adrenaline is going you can do alot more than what you think you can.  I would hope i know enough though to either talk my way out of the situation or try to hold my own with what i have.


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## Tony (Jun 24, 2004)

I was just looking at Satansbarber kenpo website and I saw some amazing clips. It appears that Kenpo focuses a lot on fast hand speed so I can see this being very beneficial in a real encounter.


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## Trent (Jun 24, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> ...I would hope i know enough though to either talk my way out of the situation or try to hold my own with what i have.



I'm sure that is the wish of everyone.  However, depending upon the places you go and your profession or avocation, you just never know.  Good reasons to train though.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 24, 2004)

A good way to use just your hands is by sitting in a wheel chair and defending yourslef. It also gives you an idea of what a person confinded to a chair can and can not do


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## Eldritch Knight (Jun 26, 2004)

I like the idea of practicing from a sitting position. I'll have to pass that idea along to my instructor. As for the tight pants situation, I'd go with the traditional locks, breaks, and gouges, but I'd add an element of shock to it as well to use my enemy's instinctual fear response against him. Essentially, I'd use as many face strikes as possible, preferably from the sides and behind, and probably add a warlike kiai to that for emphasis. It may not do much, but as long as the entire combat takes less than 10 seconds, it might him enough pause for you to take him down.

On a related note, the Shotokan master at my school has been confined to a wheelchair for most of his life. He's a really old guy, but that doesn't make him incapable of effectively defending himself.


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## hkg (Jul 30, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Shouldnt be a problem as in any good system a student should be profiecient with his hands and his feet.


i agree here, if u practice in a effective art then yes u ar at a disadvanage but not to the point of u bein useless u still should be more than capable of defendin urself. good question tho that mjs said about should u use more force, will think on that!


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## GAB (Aug 6, 2004)

One of the first thoughts that comes to mind! 

What are the consequences of using your hands only, then using your feet also. 

I like to use my hands to protect and retaliate, my feet to move in and out of danger. Each situation needs to be handled, standing on its own merit. 
If you use your feet in a street brawl and have a shoe on them, in my State you will go to jail for ADW (assault deadly weapon).

Something to think about, protect one's self with your hands, go to jail if you use your feet.. Fast hands are very effective..Regards, G (Old Kaju guy)


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