# Anti-Grappling Techniques...



## Kababayan (May 7, 2017)

Hello everyone,
This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here.  So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest. 

I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have.  I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have collected so far.  Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.)  The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students. 

- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up. 

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek.  When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up. 

- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Any more added to the list is greatly appreciated.  Helpful responses only please. Thank you,

Kab


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## Paul_D (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?*


Squeezing his windpipe.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened.


For different throws, the counter will be different. There is no "one size fit all" solution.

For example, the best counter for "leg lift" throw is called "ride on". 

You

- borrow your opponent's leg lifting force,
- jump on top of his back, and
- crash him down to the ground.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

If you bite my thigh while I am triangle choking you. I will take your eyes home with me.

Ok. Lets sepparate the defences into 2 parts.

1. The mechanical defence.

2. Going schoolyard.

Interestingly the Mechanical defence for a triangle choke specifically reqires you to have your head up. This action defends the choke. If you are biting a thigh. Your head is down. Helping the choke.

When you go schoolyard you do not want to work against the mechanical defence.






So posture up save your neck and then look for some sort of dirty trick. If that floats your boat.

Of course you could also just wait for a dozen guys to stomp someones head in. Because that allways happens right?

Now when you are in guard This is the anti grapple magic street fighting secrets.

Keep both hands in or both hands out. And stay square. This is more important than any bite eyegouge or other schoolyard trick.


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## Kababayan (May 7, 2017)

Thank you for the responses so far.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.



Once you are on the ground against a skilled grappler, your defense has to be built around a foundation of solid grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be better at BJJ in general. You don't have to be good at submissions or exotic guards, passes, and sweeps. You *do* have to be solid at defending and escaping from inferior positions and regaining your feet. Those are grappling skills. Things like biting, gouging, groin strikes, and so on are add-ons which can _enhance_ your grappling but do not _substitute_ for them.

When I teach strikers who want to learn ground defense, I teach them the same fundamental defenses and escapes I teach to BJJ students. The only difference is that I get them to follow up those escapes by regaining their feet rather than finishing the fight on the ground.



Kababayan said:


> I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers


Everything I said above applies even more so in this case. A beginner grappler may be so shocked by a bite or groin grab that he forgets what he's doing. An experienced grappler (especially one who trains for street application) will punish you for escalating the situation with such tactics if you don't have the grappling chops to immediately escape once you've tried them. Ask expert striker/wanton sociopath Gerard Gordeau who tried to bite Royce Gracie and got choked out for his effort and who eye gouged Yuki Nakai and got heel hooked in response.



Kababayan said:


> Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore



How old are you?



Kababayan said:


> When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.



Sounds like the triangle choke was not properly applied. This tactic is not likely to work against an expert.



Kababayan said:


> Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.



This can work if your basic closed guard technique is solid (grappling skill), your disengaging & stand-up technique is solid (grappling skill), and your opponent is not psychologically prepared for that level of escalation. If he _is_ prepared, then you better hope your disengagement was successful or you are about to be feeling some payback. Also bear in mind that if the scenario is already so dire that biting is justified, then your opponent may already be applying his own attacks off of the takedown which will pre-emptively negate your biting.



Kababayan said:


> Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.



More likely to work against beginners than against advanced grapplers. When I have someone in side control, I am monitoring the position of their near hand pretty carefully. Even if someone does manage to grab at my groin, I am more likely to inflict painful countermeasures than to let you escape.



Kababayan said:


> If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)



Being able to effectively apply this tactic essentially depends on being able to win the battle for control of posture and distance before you can effectively land any strikes. Winning that battle is a matter of grappling skill. If I am in your guard, I can probably land some effective strikes to your groin, because I have a couple decades more grappling experience than you do. If you are in my guard, it's highly unlikely that you will have the opportunity to even try hitting my groin and attempting to do so will put you in a worse situation.

Once again, this doesn't mean you have to be a better BJJ player than your opponent to escape back to your feet and get back to your striking game. It just means you have to be very solid in those grappling skills which are most fundamental to surviving and escaping. If you are in someone's guard, the most fundamental skills are posture and base.




Paul_D said:


> Squeezing his windpipe.



Squeezing the windpipe is a grappling technique. Trying it against a superior grappler who has already started to win the positional battle is not necessarily the best tactical move if you want to escape the grappling arena and reset on your own terms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 7, 2017)

Are you talking stand up anti-grappling, or ground game anti-grappling, or both? IMO, in both cases, you have to be able to sense your opponent's intention.

When your opponent tries to

- straight his arm, you will help him to straight more.
- bend his arm, you will help him to bend more.
- rotate his body in one direction, you will help him to rotate more
- ...

Your force + his force > your force


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

So. the anti grapple.

Sit outs stand ups.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you talking stand up anti-grappling, or ground game anti-grappling, or both?


In his original question he said "after the takedown has occurred" so I presume he means groundfighting.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 7, 2017)

IMO, the term "anti-striking" may exist, but the term "anti-grappling" just doesn't exist. You don't have to be a good striker to turn a striking game into a grappling game. But the moment that the grappling game start, you have to be a good grappler to finish it.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the term "anti-striking" may exist, but the term "anti-grappling" just doesn't exist. You don't have to be a good striker to turn a striking game into a grappling game. But the moment that the grappling game start, you have to be a good grappler to finish it.



Yes and no. You can either focus on finishing with submissions. Which would be grappling.

Or finishing with strikes or escapes which would be anti grappling. 

They have overlaps.


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## Charlemagne (May 7, 2017)

Tony is right.  The best defense if you have already been taken to the ground by an experienced grappler is to have solid grappling skills. 

As for the whole "groin grab" thing while on the ground or biting while someone is putting the triangle on you. 






Seriously.  It's time to put nonsense like this to rest.  If you want to be able to handle yourself on the ground, train an art that does this (Judo, BJJ, Catch, CSW, etc.).  My personal preference would be BJJ in a traditional group that does the original stuff that deals with strikes on the ground in addition to submissions.  Regardless, anyone of them will put you further down the road than you are now.  There isn't a shortcut.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In his original question he said "after the takedown has occurred" so I presume he means groundfighting.


He also said, "Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, ..."

Both "sprawling" and "not be taken down" can reference to the stand up grappling.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 7, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Or finishing with strikes or escapes which would be anti grappling.


In order to be able to finish with striking, you have to have the skill to free your arms, that will be grappling skill.

For example, how to break apart a wrist grip is not striking skill but grappling skill. If your opponent has strong grip and you don't know to twist your arm against his thumb (1 finger), you may not even be able to break that wrist grip. You then can't punch back.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In order to be able to finish with striking, you have to have the skill to free your arms, that will be grappling skill IMO.



Yeah but there are differences in context. You can throw submissions from your back. So if your focus was submissions you can move through a bunch of options there.

So in essence you are training grappling.

Now if you dont want to finish with submissions. You need to change your grappling style to accommodate that. And it needs to be called something.

A big exaple is whether you would leap of mount for an arm bar. A grappler would. An anti grappler wouldn't.


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## Danny T (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore.


What is your age...I'm 62 and train in grappling arts as well as standup.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore.


When you are 80, you may not be able to box 15 rounds, or wrestle 15 rounds, you can still play ground game. The ground game does not involve

- punch to the head,
- land on the body.

Since you can tap out whenever you want to, I just don't see the ground game can have any age limitation. Many BJJ schools skip the stand up game and directly go to the ground game.


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## Kababayan (May 7, 2017)

Thank you all for your great responses. I was originally asking about what to do during the ground-fight that would be dirty and effective, but I greatly appreciate all of the information given by everyone. I have some limited grappling skills, about a year's worth, but never had the passion for it like I have for the stand-up arts. I have 35 years of martial arts experience but always felt that my ground game was lacking.  I guess I was hoping to get some info that I can incorporate into my present experience without having to go and train bjj full time. Thanks again for the great responses.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Thank you all for your great responses. I was originally asking about what to do during the ground-fight that would be dirty and effective, but I greatly appreciate all of the information given by everyone. I have some limited grappling skills, about a year's worth, but never had the passion for it like I have for the stand-up arts. I have 35 years of martial arts experience but always felt that my ground game was lacking.  I guess I was hoping to get some info that I can incorporate into my present experience without having to go and train bjj full time. Thanks again for the great responses.



You could. But you would need to hunt down a guy who knows what they are doing.

Mostly you would want to learn escapes.

Which would not be a bad base to have anyway.


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## Danny T (May 7, 2017)

So...you are still young and can train in some type of grappling system. BJJ isn't the only ground system around that has some very good escapes.


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## Kababayan (May 7, 2017)

Regarding age, as many have asked, I'm 42. Not old by any means. I probably should have left the "at my age" comment out. The main reason that I don't train in bjj is that
I have a newborn daughter at home and don't want to be gone at night a few days a week. (The closest bjj school is about 40 min away.) Plus I never really had the passion for it like the stand up arts. When I would train I would get injured after a few sessions and have to take a break. That would mean that I couldn't train in my other arts. Everyone says that there is a break-in period that your body has to go through in bjj and once I go through it the injuries won't happen as frequently.


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## hoshin1600 (May 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you are 80, you may not be able to box 15 rounds, or wrestle 15 rounds, you can still play ground game. The ground game does not involve
> 
> - punch to the head,
> - land on the body.
> ...


While age is not the constraint factor, your health and fitness at whatever age you are is a restriction.  It's getting difficult for me to kneel down. I can't sit in Japanese Seiza anymore. The pain in my knees is just too much.  So yes as we age it gets harder  to do ground work for some of us.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

See this is what is interesting about systems like Mc Map in that they have all these systems and ideas to choose from but you need to prune the hell out of it to get mabye a few basic principles as a sort of get out of jail card.

So if it were me and just to train grappling as a supplemental to striking. It would be.

Escape mount.
Escape side control.
Escape scarf hold.
Escape knee ride.

From there you go into turtle. learn sit outs and stand ups.

You would need how to do mount, side control etc.

That should see you through in an absolute bare bones system.


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## Charlemagne (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Thank you all for your great responses. I was originally asking about what to do during the ground-fight that would be dirty and effective...


Any dirty trick you could use can be used against you as well.  Try biting someone while they are choking you and you just have them license to gouge your eyes out and there won't be a thing you can do to stop it.  

In addition, effectiveness is highly suspect.  As you can see in that vid I posted, it's not easy to pull that stuff off against someone who is good on the ground.  

Sent from mTalk


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## Andrew Green (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> - When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.



This is the sort of technique that gets created by someone that doesn't know what they are doing on the ground.  If you are in a decent triangle choke you aren't biting anything.  But you are going to go unconscious without a proper defence, and if the last thing you do before going unconscious is try to bite a chunk out of the persons leg I imagine that will make waking up after less pleasant.  

Not only that... you are on top.  If you are fighting someone that knows how to wrestle and you don't, you'll be on the bottom 



> - Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek.  When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.



And at that point you've seriously escalated the situation.  You might get out with a mouth full of cheek and make your escape, or you might wake up in the hospital with no teeth as they aren't going to take kindly to escalating the fight that far.



> - Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.



More likely that arm get pinned and you get smashed for attempting to grab their junk...  



> - If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)



Again, this is not going to have that effect.


The problem with all this anti-grappling stuff is it relies on you being in a grappling situation with someone that also doesn't have any skill in it.  In which case fundamental grappling techniques and tactics will serve you much better anyways.   If you don't know what you are doing and are facing someone who has a high level of skill they will be able to do all of that stuff to you, and you will end up pinned and unable to do much of anything.

So "anti-grappling" is really just dirty tricks to use on other non-grapplers that will escalate a fight to pretty serious levels. Once you take a bite out of someone or try to crush their testicles... that fight is ending in the emergency room for someone, probably both of you.

So you can train to bite, claw, eye gouge and make wine out of testicles.  Or, learn some actual grappling, which will allow you to control things rather then simply escalate them and do so with a much greater likelihood of success.

Is there situations that might warrant that sort of thing?  Sure, very extreme ones that most of us will never face, but they exist.  But you'll amplify their chances of success greatly by stacking them on top of some solid fundamentals.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Regarding age, as many have asked, I'm 42. Not old by any means. I probably should have left the "at my age" comment out. The main reason that I don't train in bjj is that
> I have a newborn daughter at home and don't want to be gone at night a few days a week. (The closest bjj school is about 40 min away.) Plus I never really had the passion for it like the stand up arts. When I would train I would get injured after a few sessions and have to take a break. That would mean that I couldn't train in my other arts. Everyone says that there is a break-in period that your body has to go through in bjj and once I go through it the injuries won't happen as frequently.


Yeah, 42 is definitely not too old for grappling. I'm about to turn 53 and I train BJJ typically 4 days per week.

If you were getting injured every few sessions on a consistent basis, that probably indicates a problem either with the way you or your training partners roll. Relax, focus on learning not winning, tap early and often.

I do understand not wanting to take extra time away from your family to make a long commute for classes that don't personally excite you. If you can find any competent open minded grapplers closer to you, perhaps you could trade some striking lessons in exchange for lessons in basic defense and escape from the ground. That way you wouldn't be spending excess time on stuff you don't care about, like fancy guards and advanced submissions. Alternately, you could realize that your odds of being mugged by an expert in BJJ, Sombo, Judo, or Catch Wrestling are pretty darn small, so it's probably fine if you don't have the skills to defeat someone like that on the ground.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2017)

BTW - I haven't seen much of Paul Vunak's Kino Mutai material, but I have noticed one thing that seems to be missed by both detractors and supporters. When he shows biting techniques against grappling, he first neutralizes the immediate threat, then bites, then uses the reaction to the bite to set up an escape. He doesn't start biting until he has some control of the situation. Grappling fundamentals are what gives him that initial control.


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## Andrew Green (May 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Alternately, you could realize that your odds of being mugged by an expert in BJJ, Sombo, Judo, or Catch Wrestling are pretty darn small, so it's probably fine if you don't have the skills to defeat someone like that on the ground.



pfft... your art is not complete unless I can defeat anyone of any style on "The Streetz", now buy my 5 dvd set on how to defend yourself in a street a track from a Roman centurion in full gear.


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## Charlemagne (May 7, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> If you are fighting someone that knows how to wrestle and you don't, you'll be on the bottom



Exactly right.  

If you are against someone who knows what they are doing and you don't, you won't have to worry about getting triangled. They'll be in full mount pounding your head in, or in back mount choking you unconscious.  


I can understand some of these ideas as a desperation move, because hey, if you are in the crap, and have nothing to lose, why not?  But, if they represent your plan... well, let's just say, it's not a good plan.


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## JR 137 (May 7, 2017)

You guys have obviously not seen this (I'm sure BJJers are fighting to keep it out of the mainstream for obvious reasons)...


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## Kababayan (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You need to prune the hell out of it to get mabye a few basic principles as a sort of get out of jail card.
> 
> So if it were me and just to train grappling as a supplemental to striking. It would be.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for this. This is very helpful.


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## Kababayan (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Relax, focus on learning not winning, tap early and often.
> 
> I do understand not wanting to take extra time away from your family to make a long commute for classes that don't personally excite you. If you can find any competent open minded grapplers closer to you, perhaps you could trade some striking lessons in exchange for lessons in basic defense and escape from the ground. That way you wouldn't be spending excess time on stuff you don't care about, like fancy guards and advanced submissions. Alternately, you could realize that your odds of being mugged by an expert in BJJ, Sombo, Judo, or Catch Wrestling are pretty darn small, so it's probably fine if you don't have the skills to defeat someone like that on the ground.



Thank you.  Great advice.


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## Kababayan (May 9, 2017)

Thank you for all that have replied.  I really appreciate your time and advice.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Thank you for all that have replied.  I really appreciate your time and advice.



The point with eyegouges and biting and head stomping is you really dont need expert advice to learn it.

There is no technique that makes your eyegouge that much more effective.

There is technique to striking,grappling and ground work. And good striking grappling and ground work is the key to good biting,eyegouging and head stomp.

So when you have limited resources and time. Don't pay to learn eyegouging. You could have come up with that for nothing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There is no technique that makes your eyegouge that much more effective.


I find the following move is very effective in fighting.

You swing your right arm horizontally with your fingers open and loose "across" your opponent's eyes. You have 5 fingers and your opponent has 2 eyes. The chance that one of your finger can slide across one of your opponent's eyes are very high.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I find the following move is very effective in fighting.
> 
> You swing your right arm horizontally with your fingers open and loose "across" your opponent's eyes. You have 5 fingers and your opponent has 2 eyes. The chance that one of your finger can slide across one of your opponent's eyes are very high.



Yeah eye gouges work but I am not going to a seminar and paying you for that.If I wanted to have a killer eyegouge. I will do a crap ton of boxing and then just do that five finger shot because my striking is up to speed.


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## Charlemagne (May 10, 2017)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that eye gouges, etc. cannot work.  The issue is that they work both ways.  In other words, the person with good grappling skills can dominate you on the ground in such a way that you are not going to be able to use such things effectively. Or, if you do manage to pull one of those things off, and it is not the game changer that you think it is going to be, now you have really pissed the guy off, and he can do the same to you, and probably do it more effectively as he can control you in such a way that prevents you from countering. 

There just isn't any substitute for knowing what you are doing.  You don't have to be a ground-master, but you do need some basics and you need to both drill and spar those basics on regular basis in order to be able to pull them off.  This is going to sound odd, but this is where a more "sport" mentality can be effective.  In a sport BJJ setting for example, you don't have all day to wait things out, you need to work to improve your position right away (pretty much).  This is an area where I disagree with the mentality that _some_ in the GJJ camp have, of just hanging out in bad positions and not working to get out of them right away.  In a real world fight, you may need to end things rapidly, so that mind set of moving NOW rather than waiting can be a good thing.  

Bottom line, if you want to be able to handle yourself on the ground, train that.


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## CB Jones (May 10, 2017)

Bas Rutten explained it perfectly.

Never use dirty tricks when your opponent has the advatage in position unless you just want the guy to mess you up.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Never use dirty tricks when your opponent has the advatage in position unless you just want the guy to mess you up.


There is difference between "sport" and "fight for life". The sport has rules. The fight doesn't.

If it's "sport", using dirty trick can end with fist (or knife) fight.

If your opponent tries to kill you, it doesn't matter whether you use dirty trick on him or not. If dirty trick is your last thing that you can do before getting killed, you should use it so you won't regret in your coffin.

At the end of the 4 years university, students from the Taiwan Central Police University will need to compete in a Chinese wrestling mixed with Judo tournament in order to get their black belt before they graduate. A Chinese wrestling student bite on a judo student during a ground control. Both the Chinese wrestling coach and the Judo coach had to explain what had happened in front of the head of that university.

A: Are we training our police officers to fight against criminal on the street?
B: Yes!
A: When a criminal gets hold on one of our police officer on the ground, should our police officer fight back with everything he can (include biting), or should that police officer taps on the leg and hope the criminal will let him go?

The Chinese wrestling coach won that case.


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## CB Jones (May 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is difference between "sport" and "fight for life". The sport has rules. The fight doesn't.
> 
> If it's "sport", using dirty trick can end with fist (or knife) fight.
> 
> If your opponent tries to kill you, it doesn't matter whether you use dirty trick on him or not. If dirty trick is your last thing that you can do before getting killed, you should use it so you won't regret in your coffin.



I agree if you think the guy is trying to kill you but if it is a normal "street fight" and dirty trick could convince the person with the advantage to do more damage than he originally intended.


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## Never_A_Reflection (May 10, 2017)

I'm in full agreement with the general consensus--the only "anti-grappling" is grappling. You don't have to become a world-class BJJ competitor, you just need to learn (and train with resistance fairly regularly) some basic positional and submission escapes, with the intention of getting back to your feet. The difference between a BJJ white belt and a BJJ black belt is vast, but in MMA, I have seen white belts successfully escape from the ground and regain their feet against BJJ black belts, simply through such basic methods. When it comes down to it, that is going to be the best way to escape such a situation. The dirty tricks could help, and if you're about to die then you don't really have much to lose by trying them, but if you are in a bad position and resort to such tactics, you may end up still in a bad position with a now even more angry assailant. I'm no grappling expert, with only about 4 years of Judo training, and I am quite confident in my ability to not only prevent people from doing these things to me (I have rolled with eye gouges, pressure points, throat grabs, groin strikes, and biting allowed on a few occasions), and also in my ability to do them do you much more effectively from a superior position, if you haven't built any basic grappling skills.


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## oftheherd1 (May 11, 2017)

@Kung Fu Wang I am only surprised the head of the university questioned that in the first place.  Apparently in China heads of universities are on the path to liberalism as in the USA.

A thought - there have been some comments about how there is no need to train to eye gouge, or other "dirty tricks."  In sport sparring, things that kill or maim probably have no place unless they can be completely controlled.  A difficult thing to get all practitioners to do.

In a real fight, where you are defending yourself, instead of having been the aggressor, I think an opponent deserves what they get.  But while you may not need to know that an eye gouge is very good done with fingers, how will you know when you can get your fingers where you want them?  That is what the training in eye gouges should do.


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## stonewall1350 (May 13, 2017)

Honestly? As a grappler, and a decent one, I would say space. But if you aren't willing to grapple to learn how to do defense...you are screwed.

[VIDEO]




You gotta get in the gym and actually learn what to do and how to handle it. 6 months of training with the secret service (the boxer in the video) isn't going to keep a great grappler from taking you down and whipping your ***.

Or like George Zimmerman...a year of poorly done MMA training isn't going to keep a street fighting 17 year old scrawny punk from somehow managing to get full mount and raining blows down on you (per witness statement). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TMA17 (Aug 21, 2018)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> I'm in full agreement with the general consensus--the only "anti-grappling" is grappling. You don't have to become a world-class BJJ competitor, you just need to learn (and train with resistance fairly regularly) some basic positional and submission escapes, with the intention of getting back to your feet. The difference between a BJJ white belt and a BJJ black belt is vast, but in MMA, I have seen white belts successfully escape from the ground and regain their feet against BJJ black belts, simply through such basic methods. When it comes down to it, that is going to be the best way to escape such a situation. The dirty tricks could help, and if you're about to die then you don't really have much to lose by trying them, but if you are in a bad position and resort to such tactics, you may end up still in a bad position with a now even more angry assailant. I'm no grappling expert, with only about 4 years of Judo training, and I am quite confident in my ability to not only prevent people from doing these things to me (I have rolled with eye gouges, pressure points, throat grabs, groin strikes, and biting allowed on a few occasions), and also in my ability to do them do you much more effectively from a superior position, if you haven't built any basic grappling skills.



Old post here but this is sort of what I am going for.  About to sign either with a IKMA school that has an extensive ground system with a focus of getting back up, or learning Gracie BJJ.  As much as I've been told to try them out first, they don't give you enough time to really know.

On top of that, some schools like the Gracie BJJ school, lock you into a minimum 6 month contract vs some schools that are month to month.  With a family I like the month to month option.

My goal remains the same though in that I must learn a ground system to some degree.  Without it you're in trouble.

Two or more of the instructors at the IKMA school are 5th degree black belts in Judo and Combat JJ, which was incorporated into the IKMA curriculum.  It makes the IKMA school much more attractive than just learning Gracie BJJ.


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## jobo (Aug 21, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Old post here but this is sort of what I am going for.  About to sign either with a IKMA school that has an extensive ground system with a focus of getting back up, or learning Gracie BJJ.  As much as I've been told to try them out first, they don't give you enough time to really know.
> 
> On top of that, some schools like the Gracie BJJ school, lock you into a minimum 6 month contract vs some schools that are month to month.  With a family I like the month to month option.
> 
> ...


Is this the common ma paronia ? In what way are you in " trouble" if you don't learn a ground system ?


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## Hanzou (Aug 21, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Old post here but this is sort of what I am going for.  About to sign either with a IKMA school that has an extensive ground system with a focus of getting back up, or learning Gracie BJJ.  As much as I've been told to try them out first, they don't give you enough time to really know.
> 
> On top of that, some schools like the Gracie BJJ school, lock you into a minimum 6 month contract vs some schools that are month to month.  With a family I like the month to month option.
> 
> ...



Uh, I'm not aware of any Gracie-affiliated schools that would lock you into a 6-month contract. What schools are you looking at specifically?

Also any notion of "combat JJ" should be a red flag. What does that even mean? 

Run, dont walk to your nearest Bjj school. If that is not available, find a legit Judo school that only teaches Judo. Dont waste your time with nonsense.


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## Kababayan (Aug 22, 2018)

Judo is awesome but can come with a higher risk of concussions. BJJ is great but some schools strictly focus on tournament training. That's the issue that I'm currently having at my BJJ school (I've written about that before.) Not all BJJ schools teach students how to deal with stand-up attacks.  I'm a big believer in practical grappling for self defense (get off the ground quickly) but Krav doesn't always offer a multitude of grappling techniques. I guess what I'm saying is that cross-training with someone who is skilled at applying techniques in a multitude of scenarios would be the way Iwould go. One of my Krav instructors is a Gracie guy, so the grappling he teaches is quality, while at the same time taught through a filter of the Krav philosophies.  My vote would be to train with the Krav guy who has a background in grappling. That way you are getting what you are looking for; a solid ground game taught with the self defense philosophy that you are interested in learning.


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## FriedRice (Aug 22, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> - When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.



My leg muscles will be flexed and it shouldn't hurt that much from the bite. I will try to claw your eyeballs out as my legs continue into the triangle.  What am I wearing? Shorts or jeans? Try biting through jeans....it hurts your teeth more than doing any damage.  My nuts are underneath my penis. You might strike the top of my penis shaft and that doesn't really hurt. I have more chances of hurting my nuts with my own thighs crushing them then you would, punching at them.



> - Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek.  When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.



I would release grip to gouge your eyes with both hands while driving forward with legs. Once my thumbs are on each eye socket, I drive them in and downward into your eyeballs as I hoist/post up. The cheek bite shouldn't even be that big of a deal other than not pretty for a few months.

Here's a kid getting bit by someone crazy guy who seems well versed at fighting dirty + biting.....so he ain't like the average SD guy who never really bit someone nor fought for their life before. This guy's clearly a felon with multiple convictions + lots of fights. But look at the bite marks afterward, not even that bad and no blood at all.  Watch the biting at 10:30 mark.








> - Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.



In side control, my knee is driven into your side with constant pressure. That nut grabbing hand is necessary for you to shrimp out. The moment it goes for my nutsack, you've lost significant defense.... I switch hips and start kneeing you in the head/face while pulling your head into each knee to give them extra spice....like the Muay Thai skip knees but on the ground.



> - If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)



Again, the nutsacks are under the penis and you're just striking the area above the penis shaft. I've been sidekick their plenty of times w/o a cup on. Seems like you don't train BJJ, because when you roll a lot, you'd notice that most of the Brazilians don't wear cups and they have huge penises, hahaa.....but you never notice it/feel it because it's not in a position to flap around, and the nuts are hiding under it, like it's a cylindrical shield. How do you think BJJ'ers don't crush our nutsacks every time we roll, especially with our own thighs? And there's rolling every class. The nuts seems to have a mind of their own and fluidly seek the safest spot at all times. Lots of BJJ dudes don't wear cups, which I think is gross, but it's true.


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## FriedRice (Aug 22, 2018)

Most of these anti-grappling schemes have been answered and refuted by Royce Gracie in the early UFC's where you can do all of these moves w/o being disqualified and win the whole thing...minus fines of $1,000/each infraction.....but if you win the UFC's $60,000 prize at the end and lost...say $10k in fines; that's still like 4-10X more than what a prize fighting, Martial Artists makes in a year back then and even now.....where many prize fighting MA'ists fight for a plastic trophy usually.  Yet Gracie wiped the floor with everyone, using old school BJJ.  BJJ has since evolved like crazy and the levels of MMA fighters are just leaps & bounds superior now, over the old G's, 25-30 years ago of Royce's days.


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## TMA17 (Aug 22, 2018)

I wish catch can wrestling or just wrestling in general was more available.  Wrestlers dictate where the fight goes.  I'm 42 now with a family and the reason I haven't committed to anything other than the last MMA school I attended is because I want to stick with something this time.  I've bounced around too long and I'm not doing anything which is part of the problem.  

IKMA emphasizes not going to the ground and their ground game is taught by instructors that have advanced BBs in JJ/Judo.


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## DanT (Aug 22, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> Hello everyone,
> This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here.  So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.
> 
> I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have.  I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have collected so far.  Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.)  The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.
> ...


By using these techniques, you may create a flinch response, but you need to be proficient with what to do AFTER they flinch, apart from trying to scoot away and stand up, you're in big trouble. I'm not a BJJ black belt, but I do know some submission wrestling and Shaolin Grappling. What will happen is, you'll grab his groin, he'll flinch, then strangle you. You need to know how to follow up without delay after. I think the most important element is knowing how to reverse and escape the basic positions (mount, side control, back control, etc). The best way is go to a BJJ or MMA school and learn some grappling, or continue to practice the techniques the escapes that you learned with the added element of these strikes.


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## Kababayan (Aug 24, 2018)

I forgot that I was the one who initially posted this topic over a year ago.  I began training in BJJ shortly after posting the question.  Because of the recent responses to my initial question, I would like to post some of my observations after a year of training in BJJ.  These are, respectfully, my own observations based on my experience so they do not reflect the experiences at all BJJ schools. I have posted some of these before on other thread replies, so I apologize if some of this is repetitive. I'll bullet point my observations to keep my thoughts straight:

- Some background of the dojo where I train: The BJJ dojo is a respected BJJ school that teaches through the filter of tournament success.  It is a Gracie/Machado-style focused school and the instructor is a respected BJJ tournament judge and heavy in the tournament scene. The instructor talks about using BJJ in self defense, but the techniques are primarily designed for tournament submission.  I would rather train with instructors who are primarily focused on self defense, but the people at the dojo are really good people, and sometimes it's difficult to find people that you feel comfortable training with. 

- Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down.  The act of "going through the entire self defense scenario" isn't taught at all. Meaning, defenses against punches are rarely taught...if at all.  When it is taught, it's isn't taught enough to make students feel aware of what to do if a person is coming at with a desire to attack.  My own thoughts is that most of the students are not trained to be prepared to deal with the entirety of a self-defense situation from beginning to end

- I think that the higher ranks in BJJ, just like most martial arts, would feel more comfortable dealing with "dirty tactics" because of the years of training and bumps and bruises.  The higher-ranks, I'm sure, would react by responding with what they are taught in training. In BJJ that would probably include getting tighter and going for a quick submission.  For other arts that may include striking, pushing, biting back, eye gouse, running, etc. I say that because I don't think that there is one specific way that all grapplers would deal with dirty tactics, especially if those defenses aren't regularly trained. 

- I have found that the element of surprise can be a huge advantage over an opponent, no matter the martial art. I've told this story before, but I was training with a BJJ Back Belt from standing position. He went to take me down and I accidentally jabbed him in the face (my instant reaction). He buckled to his knees and I apologized profusely.  He was expecting me to sprawl, because that was the filter in which he was trained.  The surprise of my jab would have given me time to run away. 

- My accidental attempts at "dirty tactics" while grappling:  I think a lot of how a grappler will deal with dirty tactics can be based on his or her individual personality.  I was rolling with a Blue Belt and I accidentally elbowed his groin while I was in his guard.  He released me and curled up.  I was rolling with a Brown Belt and he immediately got me in a triangle choke...I could not have tried to bite him if I had even thought about it.  He was too fast.  I was rolling with another Blue belt and my accidental headbutt to his jaw caused him to release.  There are fellow BJJ students that I know that I could rip at their ears and they would let go out of sheer surprise at what I've done, and there would be BJJ students who would get very angry and break my arm in an armbar.   I guess my point is, I have found that there isn't one universal answer as to how grapplers will deal with dirty tactics, but that it is based more on the individual make-up of a person.  A lot of it is theoretical until it happens to that individual student.  

- Ultimately, in my "a little over" one year, I have observed that there is a strong correlation with the amount of experience a BJJ student has and how they deal with dirty tactics.  The higher ranks deal with them better than students year 1-3.  I guess it would be like that in any art.  A lot of it has to do with the personality make-up of the student, but I would imagine that the same could be said for the aggressiveness as to which the dirty tactic is applied. 

Again, this is just from my own perspective.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> - Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down. The act of "going through the entire self defense scenario" isn't taught at all. Meaning, defenses against punches are rarely taught...if at all. When it is taught, it's isn't taught enough to make students feel aware of what to do if a person is coming at with a desire to attack. My own thoughts is that most of the students are not trained to be prepared to deal with the entirety of a self-defense situation from beginning to end


Speaking as someone who trains BJJ primarily as a martial art, rather than as a sport, it makes me sad that so many schools have gone down this route. I'd rather teach my students to be able to handle a self-defense situation first, then let them explore the complexities of tournament competition later. Too many schools seem to take the opposite approach.


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## Hanzou (Aug 24, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I forgot that I was the one who initially posted this topic over a year ago.  I began training in BJJ shortly after posting the question.  Because of the recent responses to my initial question, I would like to post some of my observations after a year of training in BJJ.  These are, respectfully, my own observations based on my experience so they do not reflect the experiences at all BJJ schools. I have posted some of these before on other thread replies, so I apologize if some of this is repetitive. I'll bullet point my observations to keep my thoughts straight:
> 
> - Some background of the dojo where I train: The BJJ dojo is a respected BJJ school that teaches through the filter of tournament success.  It is a Gracie/Machado-style focused school and the instructor is a respected BJJ tournament judge and heavy in the tournament scene. The instructor talks about using BJJ in self defense, but the techniques are primarily designed for tournament submission.  I would rather train with instructors who are primarily focused on self defense, but the people at the dojo are really good people, and sometimes it's difficult to find people that you feel comfortable training with.
> 
> ...



One of the great divides in modern Bjj is sport versus self defense. I feel fortunate that I was mostly trained in Relson Gracie JJ which is heavily SD focused, but I can understand that some schools are trying to stay afloat and are really pushing competition while trying to pass it off as self defense. People LOVE to compete.

The good news is that even sport-based Bjj has some great benefits if you're trying to defend yourself. If you feel that your Bjj has holes in it, I would cross-train to try to fill those holes up.

But yeah, its going to be interesting to see where Bjj goes as the old guard retires and dies off.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> - Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down.


Is there any stand up wrestling in your BJJ school? Does your school train how to

- get back up?






- take advantage on your leg holding from stand up game?






Some ground game and stand up game are connected.


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## TMA17 (Aug 24, 2018)

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I signed up today with a place that teaches Catch Can Wrestling with a guy that studied under Erik Paulson.  This place is no contract and offers a Saturday class.  I want to see what it’s like.  If I don’t like it I’ll check out IKMA.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Speaking as someone who trains BJJ primarily as a martial art, rather than as a sport, it makes me sad that so many schools have gone down this route. I'd rather teach my students to be able to handle a self-defense situation first, then let them explore the complexities of tournament competition later. Too many schools seem to take the opposite approach.



Yeah but your average guy probably does more competitions than has street fights.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but your average guy probably does more competitions than has street fights.


Combat is your goal. Sport is your path. As long as in sport, you have not ignore your opponent's punch/kick, you will be OK. But if you don't have alert about kick/punch in your sport, it's not good.

Even if your opponent is not punching you, you still need to guide his arm away from your entering path (just assume he is punching you).


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but your average guy probably does more competitions than has street fights.



One hopes... and in general probably true.
However, there are certainly exceptions. I have not competed in a few years, and I have not competed regularly in a couple decades. But I still get in fights far too often, thanks to certain people in the ER.


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## Steve (Aug 24, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> One hopes... and in general probably true.
> However, there are certainly exceptions. I have not competed in a few years, and I have not competed regularly in a couple decades. But I still get in fights far too often, thanks to certain people in the ER.


Are those fights or is that self defense?  Just trying to be precise.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 24, 2018)

Steve said:


> Are those fights or is that self defense?  Just trying to be precise.



I think it would depend on exactly how you define the terms. I don't see a real difference, myself. 


> fight
> fīt/
> _verb_
> 
> ...







> self-de·fense
> ˈˌself dəˈfens,ˈˌself dēˈfens/
> _noun_
> 
> the defense of one's person or interests, especially through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime.




Doesn't look like the good Mr Webster really sees any difference either, in this context. To be precise.


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## Steve (Aug 24, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it would depend on exactly how you define the terms. I don't see a real difference, myself.
> 
> Doesn't look like the good Mr Webster really sees any difference either, in this context. To be precise.


Could you just do me a favor and dogear this post the next time you weigh in on self defense and fighting?   Cause, you’re not being very precise for someone who likes to be precise.  

Thanks!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2018)

Steve said:


> Could you just do me a favor and dogear this post the next time you weigh in on self defense and fighting?   Cause, you’re not being very precise for someone who likes to be precise.
> 
> Thanks!


- When someone uses the term self-defense, he assume he is the good guy and the other is the bad guy.
- When I use the term fighting, I assume I'm the bad guy (since I always attack first).

My logic is, if I'm the

- bad guy, the earth will be filled with all good guys. What a nice place to live in.
- good guy, I'll keep complaining that there are too many bad guys on earth. The earth is not a good place to live.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2018)

Steve said:


> Are those fights or is that self defense?  Just trying to be precise.



An interesting idea that was given to me in the security industry is the fluid nature of in this case using force and self defence.

So to throw a person out of a pub correct force could be restraints. And so if I hit a guy people would ***** I was using inappropriate use of force.

But I could be operating as a security guard perform a restraint. Then get punched in the mouth and be no longer operating as a guard but merely a person defending himself. I am trying to escape the situation until I can operate as a security guard again.

So punching a guy back was appropriate.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> Could you just do me a favor and dogear this post the next time you weigh in on self defense and fighting?   Cause, you’re not being very precise for someone who likes to be precise.



In the context of my post the two terms, as near as I can tell, are synonymous. Perhaps you'd like to explain how they're not?


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> In the context of my post the two terms, as near as I can tell, are synonymous. Perhaps you'd like to explain how they're not?


I’m not going to even try to explain your inconsistency.  I’m simply observing it.   Perhaps you could explain it?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> I’m not going to even try to explain your inconsistency.  I’m simply observing it.   Perhaps you could explain it?



I don't see any inconsistency. If two words are synonyms, you can use either. That's sort of the definition of synonym.


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't see any inconsistency. If two words are synonyms, you can use either. That's sort of the definition of synonym.


And I’m very glad to see this.  The next time you start going on about fights aren’t self defense, i hope you remember this exchange.   I’ll be counting on you to have my back when someone suggests fighting isn’t self defense.  It’s good to see you have come around.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> One hopes... and in general probably true.
> However, there are certainly exceptions. I have not competed in a few years, and I have not competed regularly in a couple decades. But I still get in fights far too often, thanks to certain people in the ER.


I've seen you talk about this a few times over the last year or two, and it seems weird to me. Why would people in life or death critical condition want to fight, or have the strength to?

I'm not at all questioning the truth of your statements, I completely believe it, I just don't get it.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - When someone uses the term self-defense, he assume he is the good guy and the other is the bad guy.
> - When I use the term fighting, I assume I'm the bad guy (since I always attack first).
> 
> My logic is, if I'm the
> ...



Bad guy/good guy is something that only makes sense from one side or the other.

It's like the old freedom fighter/terrorist divide. Same people, different perspectives.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I've seen you talk about this a few times over the last year or two, and it seems weird to me. Why would people in life or death critical condition want to fight, or have the strength to?
> 
> I'm not at all questioning the truth of your statements, I completely believe it, I just don't get it.


I suspect it has to do with drugs and mental health issues, which can also end up in the ER.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I suspect it has to do with drugs and mental health issues, which can also end up in the ER.


Maybe it's different in the USA. I don't think someone having a mental break or high on drugs would end up in an ER here, unless they were also suffering some sort of serious injury.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> And I’m very glad to see this.  The next time you start going on about fights aren’t self defense, i hope you remember this exchange.   I’ll be counting on you to have my back when someone suggests fighting isn’t self defense.  It’s good to see you have come around.



I don’t recall ever saying that fights cannot be self defense. A fight may or may not be self defense, depending on specifics. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Maybe it's different in the USA. I don't think someone having a mental break or high on drugs would end up in an ER here, unless they were also suffering some sort of serious injury.


Drugs and mental health are complicated issues in the usa.  I don't know of the issues are unique to us, but they're definitely compkicated.   Healthcare in general is difficult to u understand.


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don’t recall ever saying that fights cannot be self defense. A fight may or may not be self defense, depending on specifics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


.  Are they synonymous or not?   Be precise, man.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I've seen you talk about this a few times over the last year or two, and it seems weird to me. Why would people in life or death critical condition want to fight, or have the strength to?
> 
> I'm not at all questioning the truth of your statements, I completely believe it, I just don't get it.



The ER isn’t like TV. There are plenty of people in the ER abusing anything from pot to alcohol to meth to PCP... and plenty of those will be violent.
People with actual life or death emergencies account for maybe 1% of visits. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> Drugs and mental health are complicated issues in the usa.  I don't know of the issues are unique to us, but they're definitely compkicated.   Healthcare in general is difficult to u understand.


Well sure, those are complicated issues everywhere. What I don't understand is that an ER, to my understanding, is where people get rushed to if they are in mortal danger or are suffering some sort of injury that require immediate medical attention. Why would you take someone suffering a mental episode or that is high on drugs to an ER? (unless its an overdose or the mental break involved self harm)


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> .  Are they synonymous or not?   Be precise, man.



I am quite certain I said “in this context” Steve. Surely you understand that context is important. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> The ER isn’t like TV. There are plenty of people in the ER abusing anything from pot to alcohol to meth to PCP... and plenty of those will be violent.
> People with actual life or death emergencies account for maybe 1% of visits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Who said anything about 'like TV'? Nothing is like TV.

I don't even watch TV. 

I guess the function of an ER is different in the USA than it is in Canada.

(as an aside, Ive never seen anyone get violent from smoking weed lol)


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> .  Are they synonymous or not?   Be precise, man.



I would say they are synonymous in any context that can be defined. It only gets fuzzy when you define self defense as anything that keeps you out of conflicts, in which case just staying in your house is self defense. I'm not sure this sort of inclusiveness is useful to anyone(aside from the self defense industry)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2018)

Self-defense a very "selfish" term. You and your friends are in trouble. All you are thinking is "yourself". How about to "defend the weak to against the strong?"


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I would say they are synonymous in any context that can be defined. It only gets fuzzy when you define self defense as anything that keeps you out of conflicts, in which case just staying in your house is self defense. I'm not sure this sort of inclusiveness is useful to anyone(aside from the self defense industry)



That would qualify as self defense that's not a fight, yes. Likewise, deescalation techniques and situational awareness could well be considered valid self defense. Self defense also has a very specific meaning in court. So you can have self defense that isn't fighting, and fighting that isn't self defense.


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Well sure, those are complicated issues everywhere. What I don't understand is that an ER, to my understanding, is where people get rushed to if they are in mortal danger or are suffering some sort of injury that require immediate medical attention. Why would you take someone suffering a mental episode or that is high on drugs to an ER? (unless its an overdose or the mental break involved self harm)


At risk of oversimplifying, not everyone has adequate healthcare.  So they end up in the er .  we also have doctors who have overprescribed opoids which has created a lot of drug addicts.  And we have a long tradition of not doing very Well treating mental illness.  There's a lot of people out there self medicating.  I'm not doing the topic justice but I'm trying to type on a phone.   Hope this makes some sense.


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I am quite certain I said “in this context” Steve. Surely you understand that context is important.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So they aren't synonymous?


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Who said anything about 'like TV'? Nothing is like TV.
> 
> I don't even watch TV.
> 
> ...


It is different.  If we had universal health care it might not be.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That would qualify as self defense that's not a fight, yes. Likewise, deescalation techniques and situational awareness could well be considered valid self defense. Self defense also has a very specific meaning in court. So you can have self defense that isn't fighting, and fighting that isn't self defense.


Earlier, you mentioned precision, which is also something I find important.

The most important thing of all , in my observations, is precision of _language. _I've always been a huge fan of Ludwig Wittgenstein, and he once famously said "The limits of your language means the limits of your world", to which I would add the clarity of your language means the clarity of your world. So for me, I tend to boil my terminology down until its clear and concise.

So when I encounter weasel words and terms like 'self defense' (weasel as in, hard to catch or nail down, not a pejorative), I tend to boil those down too. For me the words 'self defense' are quite evidently meaningful. (to defend yourself from harm).  For this to be a condition at all there must be impending harm.

I just draw the line for this at the point of actual incoming harm(incoming!), rather than scale it back in time. Once you start scaling it back from there there is no real distinctive line at which to stop. (ie the just staying in all the time comment) and the word becomes rather useless for describing anything specific.

I do realize some people like to scale that line back. For some self defense starts the moment you step out your door, for some its when you start to feel uncomfortable, for some it starts when there is a verbal escalation, etc etc. For me none of that involves actually defending yourself, as there is no immediate danger.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2018)

Steve said:


> So they aren't synonymous?



Depends on context, obviously. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you.
Unless you're just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?


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## drop bear (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I've seen you talk about this a few times over the last year or two, and it seems weird to me. Why would people in life or death critical condition want to fight, or have the strength to?
> 
> I'm not at all questioning the truth of your statements, I completely believe it, I just don't get it.



You and your gang go out, get off guts and fight some other group.

You both wind up getting messed up.

And so both go to hospital.

Surprise round 2


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on context, obviously. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you.
> Unless you're just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?


It takes two to argue.  I think you’re the pot calling the kettle, honestly.   Do you like arguing for the sake of arguing?

It makes me chuckle, because I’ve been saying functionally the same thing in every post, and you just can’t help yourself.    I think my point has been very clear throughout this exchange.


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## Martial D (Aug 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You and your gang go out, get off guts and fight some other group.
> 
> You both wind up getting messed up.
> 
> ...



Yes, there are serious cultural differences between Canada and the USA lol


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## Steve (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Yes, there are serious cultural differences between Canada and the USA lol


And Australia.   Those guys are nuts!


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## JR 137 (Aug 25, 2018)

Martial D said:


> (as an aside, Ive never seen anyone get violent from smoking weed lol)



You haven’t met me 

I would think everyone was staring at me.  Not in a paranoid “oh no, they know I’m high!” way, but in a “this MF keeps staring at me” way.  When I was stoned, time moved very slowly.  So even a glance seemed like forever.

Young and stupid and stoned me couldn’t handle someone eyeballing me*,  so I’d start a fight.

I stopped smoking pot because of that.  One time in college at my fraternity house, I let my guard down and told myself I’d be fine.  It was our alumni weekend.  I went after one of the members of the founding class.  He ran away in a comedic way.  Several guys grabbed me and more or less locked me in a room with them until I was ok.  Seriously.

Then another night I thought I’d be ok again.  I was talking to a friend of mine when I happened to look at a nice looking young lady about 10 feet away from me and said “what the F are you looking at?”  She replied “I was checking you out, but forget it” and walked away.

So not only was it getting me into fights, but it started keeping me from getting laid.  And like most every guy I know, it wasn’t like I was getting so much that I could afford to turn down average looking women, never mind good looking women.

That was the last time.  Never again.  No further motivation needed.  I didn’t do it that often anyway, and it wasn’t like I lost interest in alcohol, so no big loss.

Yeah, everyone laughs when I tell them that.  I haven’t met anyone else who has that reaction to that drug.  When I drink, I’m like most people when they’re stoned.  What can I say, I’m just weird.

*Older and less stupid me still doesn’t do very well with being stared at, but I’ve got a lot more control.


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## FriedRice (Aug 25, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> - My accidental attempts at "dirty tactics" while grappling:  I think a lot of how a grappler will deal with dirty tactics can be based on his or her individual personality.  I was rolling with a Blue Belt and I accidentally elbowed his groin while I was in his guard.  He released me and curled up.



Yeah b/c this was in a gym and not in some dark alley somewhere with no witnesses. Not saying it didn't hurt him, but if I got hit in the nuts and was in pain, say at a degree of 5/10, I'd still stop the sparring to recover. Why should I go through pain for and possibly lose/tap out to a White belt? Even at 4/10 pain. 10/10 may be incapacitation, but will it really be the same as a head KO if the Blue's life may be on the line in said dark alley? 



> I was rolling with another Blue belt and my accidental headbutt to his jaw caused him to release.



Same deal, it was in a gym and just sparring. Why should he even go on after you headbutt him. No doubt that pure BJJ'ers are usually quite wimpy when getting struck in the face accidentally, but their toughness should be pretty decent at Blue to keep going in the streets.



> There are fellow BJJ students that I know that I could rip at their ears and they would let go out of sheer surprise at what I've done, and there would be BJJ students who would get very angry and break my arm in an armbar.   I guess my point is, I have found that there isn't one universal answer as to how grapplers will deal with dirty tactics, but that it is based more on the individual make-up of a person.  A lot of it is theoretical until it happens to that individual student.



This is a hard question to answer and I may have a decent answer. I've trained at the same BJJ/MMA gym for over 10 years, and I'm talking about religiously 4-6 days a week. From my observations, there are rarely many who trains both striking and grappling. Once someone gets established in BJJ, ie. Purple+ (or even Blue)....then they'd rarely, if ever go over to Muay Thai and be "the noob"....and vice versa from the MT side not going over to BJJ.  So we really never find out if those BJJ higher belts can really take a punch to the face and not fold over easily. 

But I've seen it once, in all of my 10+ years there and for a period of over 1 month even. This was when 1 of the fighters was starting his Boxing program at our gym and the Master, who's mainly a BJJ-for-life-only, kinda guy....ordered all of his top BJJ students to train in this Boxing class to give this Fighter some needed encouragement. The previous Boxing instructor (who was much better), usually only had 2-3 students.....and this gym's BJJ program is usually 20-30 students per class that's 6 days a week, 4x/day.  These BJJ-only guys of Blue and up, did not enjoy getting punched in the face. But they still took this beating for a month at least. Those of us who trained MT or MMA were making it miserable for them. After that, they all went back to BJJ only and I can attest that only 1 or 2 cross trained for the next 6 years up until now. 

The thing is though, they were getting clobbered by trained MT students and fighters, so it's not the average turd on the street who's untrained and throwing haymakers. This doesn't answer your query 100%, but I'm pretty confident that BJJ only does get you good enough for average street SD....b/c not everything's going to be life or death.....usually it's just a sloppy fight for a KO, then the winner stops rather than go to prison for murder. My data = 4000+ videos of real street fights, categorized and studied, on my hard drive, collected from 15+ years at least. Street fights and attacks are rarely like in the movies...if anything, they're closer to a sporty match w/unwritten rules.


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