# Pak Sao and jabs - Sifu Redmond



## TMA17 (Jan 25, 2018)




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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2018)

If you are going to do that drill. Put a glove on and punch the other guy in the face. Defending a jab that is never going to hit you will mess with your timing.


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## geezer (Jan 25, 2018)

Yeah. Working with a glove, and maybe headgear ...would make the timing and distancing more realistic.


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## TMA17 (Jan 25, 2018)

That’s the challenge I see with WC or any style, which lends itself to the importance of sparring.  The speed at which you’ll likely encounter in a real fight and unpredictability of what is thrown at you will vary greatly.

Notice too that Redmond isn’t in such a rigid uptight stance and almost looks like a boxer.


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## KPM (Jan 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you are going to do that drill. Put a glove on and punch the other guy in the face. Defending a jab that is never going to hit you will mess with your timing.



How you know they didn't?   In "progressive sparring" drills like this the goal is to build up skills in stages.  The end stage of this progression would likely be putting on gloves and the feeder really trying to land that jab.  Build the proper footwork, technique, and response in a "safe" way, then make it more "realistic" as you progress.  Finally put the end result in your actual sparring game.  This is how you actually make your Wing Chun work, without it resorting to "sloppy kickboxing" because you never bothered to build up the skills progressively.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2018)

KPM said:


> How you know they didn't?   In "progressive sparring" drills like this the goal is to build up skills in stages.  The end stage of this progression would likely be putting on gloves and the feeder really trying to land that jab.  Build the proper footwork, technique, and response in a "safe" way, then make it more "realistic" as you progress.  Finally put the end result in your actual sparring game.  This is how you actually make your Wing Chun work, without it resorting to "sloppy kickboxing" because you never bothered to build up the skills progressively.


Because the video showed they didn't. 

The starting stage is defending a punch that you actually have to defend. Otherwise you are chasing hands. Which is a big no no in boxing.

Why would you parry a punch that is never going to hit you?


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## Danny T (Jan 25, 2018)

I understand the premise of the drill however the range being drilled will create bad habits. Slow it up and actually work the proper range. As the practitioner's skill grows use gloves and slowly increase the speed and power again at the proper range. Practicing at a range that the attacker's punches are almost a foot from contacting will have the practitioner making incorrect responses.


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## paitingman (Jan 25, 2018)

KPM said:


> How you know they didn't?   In "progressive sparring" drills like this the goal is to build up skills in stages.  The end stage of this progression would likely be putting on gloves and the feeder really trying to land that jab.  Build the proper footwork, technique, and response in a "safe" way, then make it more "realistic" as you progress.  Finally put the end result in your actual sparring game.  This is how you actually make your Wing Chun work, without it resorting to "sloppy kickboxing" because you never bothered to build up the skills progressively.


In my experience we always progressed to realistic speed and power, but not distance. Learning to slip and parry everyone is slowly and carefully getting bopped in the forehead at the very least and hopefully thats the worst of it haha. And then with more comfort and skill the partner feeds some sneakier, quicker jabs. Then maybe double jab and stuff I don't know. I don't see a reason to practice from a distance at first, but, like I said, I've never done it that way, so how would I? Who on here has and can elaborate please?


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## VPT (Jan 26, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I understand the premise of the drill however the range being drilled will create bad habits. Slow it up and actually work the proper range. As the practitioner's skill grows use gloves and slowly increase the speed and power again at the proper range. Practicing at a range that the attacker's punches are almost a foot from contacting will have the practitioner making incorrect responses.



I was going to say the exact same thing. But I think it makes more sense to wear gloves from the get-go, even if the punches are slow and without power. There's no harm in wearing them and it doesn't cause bad habits to the feeder, who also learns to the idea of actually trying to land that punch (although it's parried) and not just _acting_ like he's punching.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 26, 2018)

I agree with drop bear and Danny. Correct distance is vital to developing good form and timing. If you need to take an easy drill and develop progressively, then you can start out going slow, with a known attack, without feints, using protective gear, whatever, and then gradually make things harder. But don't practice parrying a punch that falls 12 inches short of being able to reach you. That will do nothing but build bad habits.


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## Martial D (Jan 26, 2018)

KPM said:


> How you know they didn't?   In "progressive sparring" drills like this the goal is to build up skills in stages.  The end stage of this progression would likely be putting on gloves and the feeder really trying to land that jab.  Build the proper footwork, technique, and response in a "safe" way, then make it more "realistic" as you progress.  Finally put the end result in your actual sparring game.  This is how you actually make your Wing Chun work, without it resorting to "sloppy kickboxing" because you never bothered to build up the skills progressively.


If you train yourself to start parrying things from the outside of the opponents range, you will need to untrain those twitch reflexes and muscle memory (much harder)when it starts coming from a Realistic range. It will develop a tendency to go early, which is very bad for your face.


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## KPM (Jan 26, 2018)

Well, I guess most of you guys think about it differently than I do.  I figure if I am at a little distance from the opponent, I might want to keep that distance and be just out of reach until I'm ready to close in.  I might Pak Sao that jab, even if it isn't quite close enough to reach me, just to disrupt the opponent's timing and set up my counter as I step forward into distance close enough to land something.  You see Boxers do this as well.   You can even set the opponent up this way.  Say he's throwing some probing jabs to get a reaction, and thinks your are going to stay just out of range and continue to parry.  Then the next jab he throws you suddenly step in with your Pak Sau and flow immediately into a counter than nails him unexpectedly.

You might even be parrying from just out of distance and the opponent not even realize that he isn't actually close enough to land that jab!  Then YOU are controlling the distance, not him!  And when the time is right, YOU choose when to close the gap where you can land your strike.

Learning to control distance isn't always about standing within distance and trying not to get hit.  Controlling distance is understanding what that distance is and how to move in and out of range.  This might very well start with student learning what the "safe" distance is by working Pak Sau against a jab that is just out of range.  Then when he is confident with this he can move in closer.  Again, it is a progression of training and learning.   I see nothing wrong with what Phil's students are doing in that video clip.  But is sure seems easy for people to be "arm chair quarterbacks" around here!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 26, 2018)

KPM said:


> I might Pak Sao that jab, even if it isn't quite close enough to reach me, just to disrupt the opponent's timing and set up my counter as I step forward into distance close enough to land something.


Agree with you 100% on this. You want to "clear the path when you enter".

The main issue is to fight in your opponent's territory and not to fight in your own territory. You want your fists to be closer to your opponent's head. You don't want your opponent's fists to be closer to your head. In order to achieve that, you have to interrupt your opponent's punch in the early stage (near to his head and away from your own head).

I look at this from a wrestler point of view instead of from a striker point of view. I want to interrupt my opponent's punches ASAP. The moment that he punches me, the moment that I move in. My arms will contact his arms far away from my head but near his head.

In the following 2 clips, A tries to interrupt B's punches while B's punch is still away from A's head. This way, A can clear the path when A enters.

1. Protect center from inside out.






2. Protect center from outside in.


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## Cephalopod (Jan 26, 2018)

KPM said:


> ...  I might Pak Sao that jab, even if it isn't quite close enough to reach me, just to disrupt the opponent's timing and set up my counter as I step forward into distance close enough to land something. ... the next jab he throws you suddenly step in with your Pak Sau and flow immediately into a counter than nails him unexpectedly...



I don't believe that batting at his punch the way that is shown in the clip is going to do anything to mess up his timing.

You can use a Pak as an entry technique as you suggest, but your timing and tension needs to be crazy good to move in on a fast jabber. I have found that a hard 'batting' Pak doesn't work for me but that a very soft Pak with forward intent can stick to a jab when it retracts allowing me to close the distance if my footwork is perfectly timed
.
Once again I'd say that this is incredibly difficult against a fast jab and needs to be practiced at real distance against someone who is either wearing gloves or has good enough control that he can be quick without KOing you because you are going to be eating a bunch of knuckles.


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## TMA17 (Jan 26, 2018)

I like how Sifu Redmond acknowledges that most WC people think they are going to be able just block and move right in and how that only works in WC demonstrations.  He's being realistic.


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## Danny T (Jan 26, 2018)

I agree on clearing the path but in the video that isn't what is happening.
You start doing paks to any decent striker's jab outside of range you are going to start eating hooks and over hands.


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## KPM (Jan 27, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I agree on clearing the path but in the video that isn't what is happening.
> You start doing paks to any decent striker's jab outside of range you are going to start eating hooks and over hands.



Defending against those is step 2 of the drill progression, at least the way we do it.


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## geezer (Jan 27, 2018)

KPM said:


> Defending against those is step 2 of the drill progression, at least the way we do it.



The proof is in the pudding. So the question is, does this drill progression work for your guys? If the answer is _yes _...well then, there you have it.


Here's another, _escrima-influenced_ thought about using the pak/check against a jab from outside punching range. 

A lot of guys will size you up, jabbing like that, when they really can't hit you ....but you can still reach their arm, and if you can check their jab with an intercepting pak sau, you could also mess up their hand or arm with the same move if you happen to be _holding something hard and pointy_, like a pen, phone, pocket flashlight, closed folding knife, etc.

When you do this, you not only diminish the use of their hand, you can make them flinch and create an opening.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 27, 2018)

Danny T said:


> You start doing paks to any decent striker's jab outside of range you are going to start eating hooks and over hands.





geezer said:


> The proof is in the pudding. So the question is, does this drill progression work for your guys? If the answer is _yes _...well then, there you have it.


The OP's clip shows A punch, B applies parry, and move back. It's too conservative for me.

1st - when your opponent punches, you should move in. His forward footwork has saved your forward footwork.
2nd - when you apply Pak (downward parry), you should also use upward wrap after that. You try to predict your opponent's respond (his arm moving path) and take advantage on it.

I agree with KPM. That will be the step 2.

1. You make 1 move, your opponent responds to it.
2. You then respond to his respond, the 2nd move.


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## TMA17 (Feb 1, 2018)

Interesting point:

“Pak Sao doesn’t look like much yet every essential attribute and principle can be explored via Pak Sao. The worst thing you can do is to interpret Pak Sao as some sort of combative drill i.e. “blocking punches”. Pak Sao is essentially a physical discussion of centerline, energy, and hand replacement. The key to gaining anything out of the Pak Sao exercise is to understand it in this context. To perform the exercise in a perfunctory manner while thinking about what comes next is a waste of time. This is true for all the exercises leading up to Chi-Sao.

If you cannot teach someone Pak Sao beyond the physical choreography then you do not understand the drill. If at any stage in your training you cannot explain what you are doing and why you are doing it then by definition you do not know what you are doing.”


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## wckf92 (Feb 1, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Interesting point:
> 
> “Pak Sao doesn’t look like much yet every essential attribute and principle can be explored via Pak Sao. The worst thing you can do is to interpret Pak Sao as some sort of combative drill i.e. “blocking punches”. Pak Sao is essentially a physical discussion of centerline, energy, and hand replacement. The key to gaining anything out of the Pak Sao exercise is to understand it in this context. To perform the exercise in a perfunctory manner while thinking about what comes next is a waste of time. This is true for all the exercises leading up to Chi-Sao.
> 
> If you cannot teach someone Pak Sao beyond the physical choreography then you do not understand the drill. If at any stage in your training you cannot explain what you are doing and why you are doing it then by definition you do not know what you are doing.”



dude...who are you quoting?


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