# Best combo for street self defence



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 30, 2022)

Combine these Tkd boxing and judo and you can pretty much deal with anything, tkd kicks can also be used against legs and while the foot is more fragile than the shin if your wearing shoes then it’s ok and using the foot gives longer reach, boxing speaks for itself best hand technique of any style. Up close judo is best, perhaps in a hot topless climate not so good but anyone wearing clothes especially jumpers or coats are going flying and the groundwork for judo is often underrated should your opponent still be functioning after all that,


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 30, 2022)

Are you suggesting this is an ideal combination of styles, or just a decent combination?


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> boxing speaks for itself best hand technique of any style


It's only the best technique if there is no kicking or grappling. There are alot of things boxing doesn't have to deal with.  I've never sparred with a boxer who allowed kicking during our sparring sessions. I could wrestle with them either.


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Are you suggesting this is an ideal combination of styles, or just a decent combination?


I was suggesting it as a decent combination however I would argue that it is as ideal as any other combination, for example mauy Thai and Bjj is also decent but I think not as good as the combo I put forward


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's only the best technique if there is no kicking or grappling. There are alot of things boxing doesn't have to deal with.  I've never sparred with a boxer who allowed kicking during our sparring sessions. I could wrestle with them either.


Agreed, as I said it’s the best hand technique


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 30, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Combine these Tkd boxing and judo and you can pretty much deal with anything, tkd kicks can also be used against legs and while the foot is more fragile than the shin if your wearing shoes then it’s ok and using the foot gives longer reach, boxing speaks for itself best hand technique of any style. Up close judo is best, perhaps in a hot topless climate not so good but anyone wearing clothes especially jumpers or coats are going flying and the groundwork for judo is often underrated should your opponent still be functioning after all that,


You seem to have things all figured out.  I hope it works out like that for you.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's only the best technique if there is no kicking or grappling. There are alot of things boxing doesn't have to deal with.  I've never sparred with a boxer who allowed kicking during our sparring sessions. I could wrestle with them either.



I trained in a boxing gym for several years before some of the boxers said "Go ahead and use that karate stuff, we'd like to work against it."

Oh, man, if you ever get the chance, JowGa,  you'll have a good time, it's so much fun.

I guess they thought I was going to try and kick them in the head. Instead, I swept their feet out every time they moved. The front leg, back leg or both legs. Then I started snap kicking them in the cup. To which they said "You can't do that! It's illegal!"

I said "in boxing sure, but not in Karate, better protect your groin I'm going to do it again."

That's when I kicked them upside the head.

Haven't had that much fun in a long time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 30, 2022)

Buka said:


> I swept their feet out every time they moved.


That was the strategy I used last time I sparred against a boxer too. When I sparred, I only looked at my opponent's leading leg knee. If his leading leg knee is bending (has more weight on), I either sweep that leg, or step on that knee.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That was the strategy I used last time I sparred against a boxer too. When I sparred, I only looked at my opponent's leading leg knee. If his leading leg knee is bending (has more weight on), I either sweep that leg, or step on that knee.


I only look at the feet. Always have, probably always will.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's only the best technique if there is no kicking or grappling. There are alot of things boxing doesn't have to deal with.  I've never sparred with a boxer who allowed kicking during our sparring sessions. I could wrestle with them either.


I don’t concede that boxing is the best hand technique no matter the caveats.  But that’s just me.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Agreed, as I said it’s the best hand technique


I don’t agree with that, but one’s mileage may vary.


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## wab25 (Aug 30, 2022)

I think the best combo for street self defense is the art that you are most interested in practicing the most. TKD may be the most effective art on the planet... but if I am not willing to put in the time to train it... it won't help. So get an art that you will spend the most time training... doesn't matter which... just train.

Now, since we are talking about street and not sport... you need to get out of the house... go spar with / roll with other styles and other arts. Learn how your art deals with the different styles. Learn how to make the other guy fight the fight you want. You may be TKD and the other guy is BJJ... but if you can keep it on your feet, and keep your distance... you will win. (it will take some training and sparring to learn how to do this) If you are the BJJ guy, you will need to learn how to get the TKD guy on the ground.

The advantage I see for BJJ, is that they often train with MMA folks, and already practice trying to get in... where TKD folks do not do this type of training as much. 

In short... train what you are interested in. Then spar, to learn how to apply it against full resistance. Then spar with other arts, to learn how to make the fight your fight, against someone wanting a different type of fight. (don't forget to spar with wrestlers.... you will find out real fast how well you can control the situation...) If you are not willing to put this work in... it really does not matter which art or arts you choose, they won't work.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 30, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Combine these Tkd boxing and judo and you can pretty much deal with anything, tkd kicks can also be used against legs and while the foot is more fragile than the shin if your wearing shoes then it’s ok and using the foot gives longer reach, boxing speaks for itself best hand technique of any style. Up close judo is best, perhaps in a hot topless climate not so good but anyone wearing clothes especially jumpers or coats are going flying and the groundwork for judo is often underrated should your opponent still be functioning after all that,



???
What about weapons? 
???

Bats, clubs, other improvised impact tools?
Blades, small , medium, large, two handed 

Just Curious.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 30, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> I was suggesting it as a decent combination however I would argue that it is as ideal as any other combination, for example mauy Thai and Bjj is also decent but I think not as good as the combo I put forward


For self-defense I think judo, when it's taught with a heavy emphasis ground techniques is very sufficient. However, I would strongly argue that Muay Thai and Judo would be a far superior combination. For multiple reasons.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2022)

I have had my **** handed to me so many times from so many different styles and so many different practitioners, I couldn't possibly remember them all.

I think most, if not all, styles work well together in fighting. It's up to the individual to see if they work together for them and for their needs.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 30, 2022)

Buka said:


> I have had my **** handed to me so many times from so many different styles and so many different practitioners, I couldn't possibly remember them all.
> 
> I think most, if not all, styles work well together in fighting. It's up to the individual to see if they work together for them and for their needs.


Certain styles I believe complement each other far better than others. For instance Judo and Muay Thai. First by doing clinching, you are learning no gi upper body throwing, against someone who is trying to elbow, knee, punch or push away from you. That's a huge bump up in your ability to do no gi judo.

Also I think the knee strike is the missing link in a judoka's arsenal. Because hipping out is a very common stall tactic to avoid judo throws. However if you began landing knees, they would very likely move their hips in to avoid these deviating strikes. Making it much easier to preform judo.

In short, doing judo while someone is not wearing a GI, but is trying to hit you or get away from you, and you are able to set up throws with knees is a very good combination to learn.

You don't get that with combining it with just any style.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t concede that boxing is the best hand technique no matter the caveats.  But that’s just me.


I've been thinking about this since you posted it. What I think is that boxing may have the most consistent hand techniques no matter what boxing gym you go to, no matter where in the world that boxing gym may be. I think there's something to be said for that.

I spent a bunch of years in my teacher's TKD school. He had two floors. On the ground floor was an eighteen foot boxing ring that we used all the time, like every day.

Botton line.....I dunno'.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2022)

Maybe the deadliest combination would be Ameri-Do-Te and Sinanju.

I trembled just writing that.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 30, 2022)

Buka said:


> I only look at the feet. Always have, probably always will.



Actually found a lot of Martial Artists that don't pay attention to their feet


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually found a lot of Martial Artists that don't pay attention to their feet


I have feet??


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2022)

Buka said:


> I trained in a boxing gym for several years before some of the boxers said "Go ahead and use that karate stuff, we'd like to work against it."
> 
> Oh, man, if you ever get the chance, JowGa,  you'll have a good time, it's so much fun.
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha.. that sounds like something I would do.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I think the best combo for street self defense is the art that you are most interested in practicing the most. TKD may be the most effective art on the planet... but if I am not willing to put in the time to train it... it won't help. So get an art that you will spend the most time training... doesn't matter which... just train.



So you shouldn't gear your training so it meets your objectives most efficiently?

There are plenty of things people do that they don't like primarily to make them good at that thing. 

It is almost a mantra of fight training.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

I have mentioned folk wrestling before for street self defence. It has one of the better get back up systems out there.

Lots of MMA guys tend to lean towards it because getting punched on the ground is an exceptionally bad thing to deal with.






So generally you fight to your hands and knee. Then use something like this to get up and get away.


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You seem to have things all figured out.  I hope it works out like that for you.


Thanks


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t concede that boxing is the best hand technique no matter the caveats.  But that’s just me.


I’m always open to admitting I’m wrong but can you suggest another style that could beat a boxer using only their hands


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> ???
> What about weapons?
> ???
> 
> ...


Somone pulls a blade pull your own blade or run away cause no style will save you there, never tried Karl mag and things like that but they train in a safe environment and in a real life or death situation with all the terror that goes with it, not sure how good they are, however I could be wrong


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I have mentioned folk wrestling before for street self defence. It has one of the better get back up systems out there.
> 
> Lots of MMA guys tend to lean towards it because getting punched on the ground is an exceptionally bad thing to deal with.
> 
> ...


Wrestling is a great martial art but kabob said judo beats it hands down and he’s done both


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Wrestling is a great martial art but kabob said judo beats it hands down and he’s done both


Wait.... Have you wrestled or done judo before? If you don't mind me asking.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Somone pulls a blade pull your own blade or run away cause no style will save you there, never tried Karl mag and things like that but they train in a safe environment and in a real life or death situation with all the terror that goes with it, not sure how good they are, however I could be wrong


Gun and knife disarms happen successfully daily by untrained people. Also many people who think they will just run away also find out that plan is often not workable.


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Wait.... Have you wrestled or done judo before? If you don't mind me asking.


Wrestling no judo yes, my kids have done judo since they were 4, when my son was 9 a 15 year old boy started on him, my son took him down with osoto gari then put him in a guillotine till he tapped, since then they have both used it to defend themselves, as I said I respect wrestling cause it’s a top tier martial art, but kabob thinks Judo’s better


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Gun and knife disarms happen successfully daily by untrained people. Also many people who think they will just run away also find out that plan is often not workable.


True anything can happen in any situation, depends a lot on the inner strength of the person, can they control their fear etc


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Wrestling is a great martial art but kabob said judo beats it hands down and he’s done both



Who is kabob?


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Who is kabob?


Apologies I meant kabib, kabobs his little brother


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## wab25 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So you shouldn't gear your training so it meets your objectives most efficiently?
> 
> There are plenty of things people do that they don't like primarily to make them good at that thing.
> 
> It is almost a mantra of fight training.


If a guy liked BJJ, and was really interested in training BJJ... he is likely to show up and train more often. If it gets proven that TKD is the most effective art for street fighting, but this guy never really liked TKD.... He may not be so excited about showing up to train. If you don't go train then it does not matter what art you don't train in.... it won't help you.

You are correct, every style has people do things that they don't like, to make them good at that art. If you don't like the art... the chances of you going through all the unlikable parts is small. Taking one class in the super deadly, most street efficient art... won't make you fight better. You have to train regularly. So, pick an art that you will show up to train at the most.

Additionally, if you want it to be effective on the street... you have to fight other types of fighters. If you don't put this training in... it does not matter what art you train in.


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## _Simon_ (Aug 31, 2022)

... I hear clackledockling is pretty up there.....


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> ... I hear clackledockling is pretty up there.....


Berserker martial arts of Grandmaster Sven Svensson are better than anything.  The most ultra-violent response to any situation.  If you only knew what Grandmaster Sven can do with a carrot, you would be frightened.  Hail Thor!!

Well, almost better than Xue-fu.  I am the West Coast (USA) Division Chief of Xue-fu which makes me the second highest ranked master in the art.  I am number two!!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> I’m always open to admitting I’m wrong but can you suggest another style that could beat a boxer using only their hands


What I think you don’t understand is that there is no objective way to measure and evaluate what style is best in any particular approach.  Different people relate to the material and the methodology in different ways, which means that a method that would be an excellent choice for you, could be a terrible choice for me.  

Boxing can certainly deliver impressive results in punching; no argument from me.  It is a popular sport and so gets a lot of visibility.  This leads people in a general sort of way to assume it is the best possible way to develop your punches.  But again, it only is the best for you if you relate well to the method and find it interesting and enjoy training it and wish to do so more than any other method.  

What it means to develop the best punching is a subjective notion.  Is it the most powerful?  The quickest?  The most “useful” (another very subjective evaluation in itself) combinations? Punching in combination with kicks or sweeps or takedowns?  Everyone will have their own notion of what it means to be the “best” puncher.  You will find no uniform agreement on that.  

It seems to me that when one makes a statement that this or that method is the best, it is usually based on what his own personal experiences are.  A person has trained a method, or even several, he found one to be very effective for him and so decide that one is the best, across the board.  But how many other systems are out there that he has never trained?  Thousands?  How can he decide one is the best, when he has never experienced most of them, by far?

@Buka hit a solid notion when he said boxing produces consistently good punchers.  No argument from me there.  Boxing has figured out a method that produces solid punching in a reasonably short period of time so that an athlete can become an active competitor without needing to train for years on end first.  A competitive career in boxing does not last terribly long for most people, so they need to get going while they are young and in their prime.  So the methods of boxing work very well in the context of what is needed for that sport.  And simply on an objective level, yes it can produce excellent punchers.

Circling back to your question above, what do I think is better?  As I outlined above, my answer will depend on my personal experiences.  I admit, I’ve never studied boxing.  I am disinterested in it and will never do it.  I study Tibetan white crane, so of course I feel it is better.  Remember what I said in the above:  people will make that evaluation based on their own experiences.  I am no different.  I feel Tibetan crane has an excellent methodology for developing very powerful punches in a surprising variety, and I feel it is second to none.  If you have never studied Tibetan crane, then how would you even dispute my claim?  But my claim is really just limited to me.  Tibetan crane is an unusual method; it does not appeal to everyone, and is not widely practiced.  I am ok with that, it does not bother me.  I only make claims for myself, not trying to broadly apply my experiences to everyone.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Berserker martial arts of Grandmaster Sven Svensson are better than anything.  The most ultra-violent response to any situation.  If you only knew what Grandmaster Sven can do with a carrot, you would be frightened.  Hail Thor!!
> 
> Well, almost better than Xue-fu.  I am the West Coast (USA) Division Chief of Xue-fu which makes me the second highest ranked master in the art.  I am number two!!



Xuefu IS the best.... no challengers have yet survived..... and most students don't either


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Xuefu IS the best.... no challengers have yet survived..... and most students don't either


I focus every training session heavily on making sure that no student survives.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> I’m always open to admitting I’m wrong but can you suggest another style that could beat a boxer using only their hands



FMA - Style


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Somone pulls a blade pull your own blade or run away cause no style will save you there, never tried Karl mag and things like that but they train in a safe environment and in a real life or death situation with all the terror that goes with it, not sure how good they are, however I could be wrong



I disagree. 

Many times I was not able to "Run"
And improvised weapons do help 
actual training in weapons helps

Not advocating Gun disarms, as stated before, practice with a water pistol until you don't get wet 100 times. 
Then move onto airsoft and such. 
The reaction time of water pistols is slow , yet hard to argue a wet mark. 
The bouncing paint, or plastic BB can be argued  

Back to my point. 

Adding in some FMA or other styles / systems (with weapons from the start) would help with your self defense. 
If this is just a discussion on what you think is the best and everyone else is wrong because it is not your idea, then why post? 

This assumes Self Defense is the point and you are open to discussion.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Certain styles I believe complement each other far better than others. For instance Judo and Muay Thai. First by doing clinching, you are learning no gi upper body throwing, against someone who is trying to elbow, knee, punch or push away from you. That's a huge bump up in your ability to do no gi judo.
> 
> Also I think the knee strike is the missing link in a judoka's arsenal. Because hipping out is a very common stall tactic to avoid judo throws. However if you began landing knees, they would very likely move their hips in to avoid these deviating strikes. Making it much easier to preform judo.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, it isn’t ever the art or the technique, it’s the man doing it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I have feet??


Maybe…I’m betting you do.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Berserker martial arts of Grandmaster Sven Svensson are better than anything.  The most ultra-violent response to any situation.  If you only knew what Grandmaster Sven can do with a carrot, you would be frightened.  Hail Thor!!
> 
> Well, almost better than Xue-fu.  I am the West Coast (USA) Division Chief of Xue-fu which makes me the second highest ranked master in the art.  I am number two!!


But you are also the Grand Poobah of the western region! All hail the vice chief.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> In my opinion, it isn’t ever the art or the technique, it’s the man doing it.


Excluding the questionable martial arts, I have found this to be the norm.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What I think you don’t understand is that there is no objective way to measure and evaluate what style is best in any particular approach.  Different people relate to the material and the methodology in different ways, which means that a method that would be an excellent choice for you, could be a terrible choice for me.
> 
> Boxing can certainly deliver impressive results in punching; no argument from me.  It is a popular sport and so gets a lot of visibility.  This leads people in a general sort of way to assume it is the best possible way to develop your punches.  But again, it only is the best for you if you relate well to the method and find it interesting and enjoy training it and wish to do so more than any other method.
> 
> ...


I still plan to engage you for a visit. I’m currently swallowed by work, but I am very interested.


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## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What I think you don’t understand is that there is no objective way to measure and evaluate what style is best in any particular approach.  Different people relate to the material and the methodology in different ways, which means that a method that would be an excellent choice for you, could be a terrible choice for me.
> 
> Boxing can certainly deliver impressive results in punching; no argument from me.  It is a popular sport and so gets a lot of visibility.  This leads people in a general sort of way to assume it is the best possible way to develop your punches.  But again, it only is the best for you if you relate well to the method and find it interesting and enjoy training it and wish to do so more than any other method.
> 
> ...


True my beliefs are based on my experience, I don’t know white crane and I did boxing, I went to a wing chun club to experience something different, put sparring against this guy and we had had to stand toe to toe and strike with our hands only, I got destroyed cause his hands were to fast coming straight at me, he was a bit of an *** cause it was my first night and he was hitting real hard, I decided not to stand and be punchbag so started moving and punching, he didn’t hit me once while I hit him at will. Also tried different styles and in my experience the movement and striking power of boxing is the best, however I humbly admit that this is only my opinion and I have not tried everything, including white crane


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> But you are also the Grand Poobah of the western region! All hail the vice chief.


I am Number Two!!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> True my beliefs are based on my experience, I don’t know white crane and I did boxing, I went to a wing chun club to experience something different, put sparring against this guy and we had had to stand toe to toe and strike with our hands only, I got destroyed cause his hands were to fast coming straight at me, he was a bit of an *** cause it was my first night and he was hitting real hard, I decided not to stand and be punchbag so started moving and punching, he didn’t hit me once while I hit him at will. Also tried different styles and in my experience the movement and striking power of boxing is the best, however I humbly admit that this is only my opinion and I have not tried everything, including white crane


My first martial art was boxing, followed by jjj. While I do teach a Chinese martial art, my Sigung was a boxer also and incorporated jabs, hooks, and uppercuts to the system long before I was born. I find that the mix of Southern styles of Chinese Gung fu, combined with western boxing techniques and my earlier experiences with jjj make for a fairly well rounded toolbox. Is it the best? Who knows, it works for me because I work hard at it. I have a belief that doing the hard work of training consistently, even when I’m tired, or sick, or don’t feel like it is the only way forward. We all get old and may not be able to do what we once could.  I train as if I may not be capable of it in future. I hope to train until my time is up.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I am Number Two!!


Aye, sir! A lofty position indeed!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Excluding the questionable martial arts, I have found this to be the norm.


Are you also in California?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> True my beliefs are based on my experience, I don’t know white crane and I did boxing, I went to a wing chun club to experience something different, put sparring against this guy and we had had to stand toe to toe and strike with our hands only, I got destroyed cause his hands were to fast coming straight at me, he was a bit of an *** cause it was my first night and he was hitting real hard, I decided not to stand and be punchbag so started moving and punching, he didn’t hit me once while I hit him at will. Also tried different styles and in my experience the movement and striking power of boxing is the best, however I humbly admit that this is only my opinion and I have not tried everything, including white crane


Sure, so we all have bias based on our experiences.  I am not immune from that either.  Our experience includes both those things that we have done, and those that we have not done.  Sometimes we simply do not even know what it is that we don’t know.  We all have those limitations, including myself.  

I will further say that the skill and athletic conditioning and natural abilities of the individual also play a huge part in this.  I imagine that any pro boxer could destroy me at will, certainly within the context of a boxing ring.  Outside of the ring that may not hold true in every case but I’m willing to concede that for all practical purposes it may be 100%.  Probably most active amateur boxers could destroy me as well, again certainly within the context of the ring, and again maybe not always outside of the ring.  But like anything, boxing has participants at every level, ranging from heavyweight world champions down to featherweight amateurs who don’t train for competition and are lucky to make it to the gym twice a month.  If boxing is what they train, then they are all boxers, in their own way.  Not all boxers are destined for greatness.  I have seen desk-jockeys working with a personal trainer at a health club, doing boxing, working combos and hitting the heavy bag.  I am quite certain I could destroy those people either in the ring or outside of it.  So “boxing” does not automatically mean “world champion”.  For most people, it means they get some exercise a couple times a month, and nothing more than that.  They are training in boxing methods, so they are boxers too, just on the very low end of the spectrum.  We don’t see those bottom-end people in boxing matches on TV, we only see those who are on the higher end of the spectrum, so it is easy to have the mistaken notion that training in boxing automatically makes a person a world champion.  It doesn’t.  That is a very limited subset of the population. 

It all comes down to the individual.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, so we all have bias based on our experiences.  I am not immune from that either.  Our experience includes both those things that we have done, and those that we have not done.  Sometimes we simply do not even know what it is that we don’t know.  We all have those limitations, including myself.
> 
> I will further say that the skill and athletic conditioning and natural abilities of the individual also play a huge part in this.  I imagine that any pro boxer could destroy me at will, certainly within the context of a boxing ring.  Outside of the ring that may not hold true in every case but I’m willing to concede that for all practical purposes it may be 100%.  Probably most active amateur boxers could destroy me as well, again certainly within the context of the ring, and again maybe not always outside of the ring.  But like anything, boxing has participants at every level, ranging from heavyweight world champions down to featherweight amateurs who don’t train for competition and are lucky to make it to the gym twice a month.  If boxing is what they train, then they are all boxers, in their own way.  Not all boxers are destined for greatness.  I have seen desk-jockeys working with a personal trainer at a health club, doing boxing, working combos and hitting the heavy bag.  I am quite certain I could destroy those people either in the ring or outside of it.  So “boxing” does not automatically mean “world champion”.  For most people, it means they get some exercise a couple times a month, and nothing more than that.  They are training in boxing methods, so they are boxers too, just on the very low end of the spectrum.  We don’t see those bottom-end people in boxing matches on TV, we only see those who are on the higher end of the spectrum, so it is easy to have the mistaken notion that training in boxing automatically makes a person a world champion.  It doesn’t.  That is a very limited subset of the population.
> 
> It all comes down to the individual.


I wish I was able to articulate this same point as well as you do it here. I can agree with everything you say here. Same same.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I wish I was able to articulate this same point as well as you do it here. I can agree with everything you say here. Same same.


Well thank you, sir.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, so we all have bias based on our experiences.  I am not immune from that either.  Our experience includes both those things that we have done, and those that we have not done.  Sometimes we simply do not even know what it is that we don’t know.  We all have those limitations, including myself.
> 
> I will further say that the skill and athletic conditioning and natural abilities of the individual also play a huge part in this.  I imagine that any pro boxer could destroy me at will, certainly within the context of a boxing ring.  Outside of the ring that may not hold true in every case but I’m willing to concede that for all practical purposes it may be 100%.  Probably most active amateur boxers could destroy me as well, again certainly within the context of the ring, and again maybe not always outside of the ring.  But like anything, boxing has participants at every level, ranging from heavyweight world champions down to featherweight amateurs who don’t train for competition and are lucky to make it to the gym twice a month.  If boxing is what they train, then they are all boxers, in their own way.  Not all boxers are destined for greatness.  I have seen desk-jockeys working with a personal trainer at a health club, doing boxing, working combos and hitting the heavy bag.  I am quite certain I could destroy those people either in the ring or outside of it.  So “boxing” does not automatically mean “world champion”.  For most people, it means they get some exercise a couple times a month, and nothing more than that.  They are training in boxing methods, so they are boxers too, just on the very low end of the spectrum.  We don’t see those bottom-end people in boxing matches on TV, we only see those who are on the higher end of the spectrum, so it is easy to have the mistaken notion that training in boxing automatically makes a person a world champion.  It doesn’t.  That is a very limited subset of the population.
> 
> It all comes down to the individual.


Cant really argue with that truth


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Many times I was not able to "Run"
> And improvised weapons do help
> ...


Learning your wrong is the best thing because then you learn something new and valuable, I’m always happy to be shown that my beliefs are wrong, fam are useful especially in the Philippines, I lived there for a few years and they don’t take prisoners there so weapons training there is definitely useful, luckily now back in my home country where we don’t have guns and it’s a sign of weakness to use a weapon so I’ve never had to face that situation, if I ever moved to a country where this wasn’t the case then yeah I’d probably look at everything from guns to baseball bats. But in a street fight training in anything like boxing mauy Thai wrestling I believe is better because you really get accustomed to hitting moving and being hit, as far as I know self defence technique is not taught with this level of cause the damage caused would be too traumatic


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Apologies I meant kabib, kabobs his little brother



And where did he say this?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What I think you don’t understand is that there is no objective way to measure and evaluate what style is best in any particular approach.  Different people relate to the material and the methodology in different ways, which means that a method that would be an excellent choice for you, could be a terrible choice for me.
> 
> Boxing can certainly deliver impressive results in punching; no argument from me.  It is a popular sport and so gets a lot of visibility.  This leads people in a general sort of way to assume it is the best possible way to develop your punches.  But again, it only is the best for you if you relate well to the method and find it interesting and enjoy training it and wish to do so more than any other method.
> 
> ...



Boxing has an objective observable and provable argument that it works. Which is why people say it is the best. 

Other martial arts may not have that proof. 

You are comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Are you also in California?


Nope.  I'm in Georgia.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> And where did he say this?


Interview in ufc, judo is under rated, joe rogan agrees that his worst nightmare would be meeting a judoka in a cold climate outside on a hard surface


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> It all comes down to the individual.


I blame my socks LOL.  Not exactly the best footwear for sparring.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> And where did he say this?


Type in kabib on judo and look for xcellentmma clips lady interviewing him asks what’s better wrestling or judo, he says judo is class compared to wrestling




gerardfoy50 said:


> Interview in ufc, judo is under rated, joe rogan agrees that his worst nightmare would be meeting a judoka in a cold climate outside on a hard surface


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I blame my socks LOL.  Not exactly the best fit wear for sparring.


Oh, well, we all need a scapegoat. 😁


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, well, we all need a scapegoat. 😁


And that's why I keep my socks on lol.  But seriously, I need to wear black socks so my white socks can stop turning brown lol. I wish there was something we could clean the mats with.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Type in kabib on judo and look for xcellentmma clips lady interviewing him asks what’s better wrestling or judo, he says judo is class compared to wrestling



And that is what you are hinging your whole argument on?


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> And that is what you are hinging your whole argument on?


I think arguably the greatest ufc fighter of all times opinion is a pretty good place to start, I take it you disagree and think that judo is not that good.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> I think arguably the greatest ufc fighter of all times opinion is a pretty good place to start, I take it you disagree and think that judo is not that good.



Yeah. He is not the greatest ufc fighter because of his judo. Is he?


----------



## wab25 (Aug 31, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> And that's why I keep my socks on lol.  But seriously, I need to wear black socks so my white socks can stop turning brown lol. *I wish there was something we could clean the mats with.*


Isn't that what white belts are for...? So we can clean the mats with them...?


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. He is not the greatest ufc fighter because of his judo. Is he?


Indeed no ufc wins by just using one style, it’s not possible, however my argument is that judo doesn’t not get the credit or respect it deserves compared to other grappling styles, I think someone like kabib agreeing with me lends weight to my argument,   Joe rogan agrees that judo is a great martial art, Rhonda rousey is another example, is it as good at groundwork as bjj, mybye not but in a street fight I would rather have judo


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. He is not the greatest ufc fighter because of his judo. Is he?


Sounds like you either don’t care for kabob or you think he is best for some other reason? Jits? I don’t watch much of this stuff, so I’m ignorant to The Who is who in ufc. I know a few from the old days like Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten etc. Who are your faves in the different weight classes? I liked watching how Jones moves. One of my old favorite fighters was Genki Sudo. The guy was a slippery fish, I liked watching him escape. He was kinda silly sometimes though.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Aug 31, 2022)

Back to good combos.... I've always felt Judo (or Shuaijiao) and Wing Chun would make a good combo


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Back to good combos.... I've always felt Judo (or Shuaijiao) and Wing Chun would make a good combo


The Judo (or Shuaijiao) and praying mantis would be a better combo because the PM 

- fast hands,
- circular arm movement, and
- leg skill.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Back to good combos.... I've always felt Judo (or Shuaijiao) and Wing Chun would make a good combo


Shuaijiao and any kung fu is a good mix in my book.

I'm planning on getting some formal training hopefully this year or early next year.  I want to do it while my bones still heal lol


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sounds like you either don’t care for kabob or you think he is best for some other reason? Jits? I don’t watch much of this stuff, so I’m ignorant to The Who is who in ufc. I know a few from the old days like Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten etc. Who are your faves in the different weight classes? I liked watching how Jones moves. One of my old favorite fighters was Genki Sudo. The guy was a slippery fish, I liked watching him escape. He was kinda silly sometimes though.



He is a combat sambo champion who has done judo and wrestling.

He isn't high level competitive judoka unless I have missed something.

Compare to say Dan kelly who was high level judo. And made it work in the UFC


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> He is a combat sambo champion who has done judo and wrestling.
> 
> He isn't high level competitive judoka unless I have missed something.
> 
> Compare to say Dan kelly who was high level judo. And made it work in the UFC


A lot of these guys cross train judo jits and wrestling ? How easy does one translate to another outside rule sets?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Indeed no ufc wins by just using one style, it’s not possible, however my argument is that judo doesn’t not get the credit or respect it deserves compared to other grappling styles, I think someone like kabib agreeing with me lends weight to my argument,   Joe rogan agrees that judo is a great martial art, Rhonda rousey is another example, is it as good at groundwork as bjj, mybye not but in a street fight I would rather have judo



Hard to clinch enter in to striking. Unless your striking is really good or you can grab a gi. Basically you have to go through the middle of someone striking zone. 

Then you have a lot of turning your back and getting potentually choked out issues.

It is a long complex route to do what could be done with a double leg easier and safer. And wrestling has hip tosses. So if you do want to judo throw someone you still can. 

As far as kabib goes there is a cultural argument as well. 

The majority of successful grappler in the ufc are wrestlers. 

And there are many more wrestlers who understand how to make grappling work from UFC and almost by default self defence.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> He is a combat sambo champion who has done judo and wrestling.
> 
> He isn't high level competitive judoka unless I have missed something.
> 
> Compare to say Dan kelly who was high level judo. And made it work in the UFC


Sorry that’s probably a different thread


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> A lot of these guys cross train judo jits and wrestling ? How easy does one translate to another outside rule sets?



I think a lot harder to cross train from judo. I believe there are even restrictions on Judoka doing this.

Where wrestlers and folk wrestlers will jits if competition is more widely available. Which it tends to be at the moment because it is more popular.









						What is judo's problem with mixed martial arts?
					

Some members of judo's leadership seem to be distancing themselves from mixed martial arts.




					www.mmafighting.com
				




So you might get lucky and get a Dan Kelly who would very much be Judo for self defence. And understand the difference. But they are much fewer and further between.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Aug 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think a lot harder to cross train from judo. I believe there are even restrictions on Judoka doing this.
> 
> Where wrestlers and folk wrestlers will jits if competition is more widely available. Which it tends to be at the moment because it is more popular.


Restrictions? How so? I mean how is that regulated?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Restrictions? How so? I mean how is that regulated?



Sorry. I am super slow. Above is an example.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

Another is the ban on leg grabs.








						Why We Won't Be Seeing Leg Grabs In Judo Any Time Soon
					

Judo is one of those arts who are always trying to make themselves more attractive in order to advance the art. This has been a defining principle among many rule changes Judo has survived over the years. When the 2018 rule guidelines went out there was one notable difference: starting January...




					www.bjjee.com
				




Which I think is statistically the most successful throw in combat sports.

By the way. Kabibs takedowns.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Hard to clinch enter in to striking. Unless your striking is really good or you can grab a gi. Basically you have to go through the middle of someone striking zone.
> 
> Then you have a lot of turning your back and getting potentually choked out issues.
> 
> ...


The cultural argument is very true, same as in mauy Thai, in Thailand and Dagestan these kids are taken at a very young a and train like Spartan warriors, it’s 24 7 constant competition in an environment that’s tough and Spartan, compare that to my kids who train for an hour then play Xbox, eat cocholate and sleep in a comfy bed. Imagine if the Japanese took their kids and handed then to a karate dojo at 7 and left them their to train like that, you go up against a grown man with that thoughness inside I think karate would kick *** a lot more, however as for comparing bjj and judo outside and I mean no kicks or punching just grappling. Look at the way they train, bjj often start on the ground and take a slow methodical approach. Judo always starts standing with aim aim of throwing, with the new rules of competition judo which punish those who don’t attack it makes it a fast aggressive explosive style, fun to watch but that’s also what you want in a street fight.


----------



## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Can we stop with the "it's *all *the individual" stuff?  That is complete nonsense.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Can we stop with the "it's *all *the individual" stuff?  That is complete nonsense.



@Steve 
Could you explain your reasoning here, because IMO, it is not nonsense, combining two styles for a street combo will not work the same for every "individual". And for some "individuals" it may not be necessary at all. 

Also I went through all 5 pages of this thread and only saw that statement used once.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> @Steve
> Could you explain your reasoning here, because IMO, it is not nonsense, combining two styles for a street combo will not work the same for every "individual". And for some "individuals" it may not be necessary at all.
> 
> Also I went through all 5 pages of this thread and only saw that statement used once.


He has a point though, some styles are superior, put the bast aikido guy in the world against the best mauy Thai guy in the world, we all know who’s going to win, or aikido vs bjj, same result


----------



## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> @Steve
> Could you explain your reasoning here, because IMO, it is not nonsense, combining two styles for a street combo will not work the same for every "individual". And for some "individuals" it may not be necessary at all.
> 
> Also I went through all 5 pages of this thread and only saw that statement used once.



I'd say it's _some _the individual, but garbage in, garbage out.  An exceptional chef can make unhealthy food taste good, but can't make unhealthy food more nutritious.  If it's intrinsically unhealthy, no amount of skill, dedication, or aptitude will change that.

Regarding the number of times it has been said, I honestly don't know and wasn't counting.  It's bunk that is shared often to justify junk food martial arts training models.  In my opinion.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Learning your wrong is the best thing because then you learn something new and valuable, I’m always happy to be shown that my beliefs are wrong, fam are useful especially in the Philippines, I lived there for a few years and they don’t take prisoners there so weapons training there is definitely useful, luckily now back in my home country where we don’t have guns and it’s a sign of weakness to use a weapon so I’ve never had to face that situation, if I ever moved to a country where this wasn’t the case then yeah I’d probably look at everything from guns to baseball bats. But in a street fight training in anything like boxing mauy Thai wrestling I believe is better because you really get accustomed to hitting moving and being hit, as far as I know self defence technique is not taught with this level of cause the damage caused would be too traumatic


Yes the Philippines can be safe and it can be bricks ( actually saw it start as I was riding away in a cab ) and even blades from history so could happen. 

I am just saying that if you ignore weapons you are ignoring a major section of self defense.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Sorry. I am super slow. Above is an example.


All good. It’s an interesting thing, thanks for that.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> He has a point though, some styles are superior, put the bast aikido guy in the world against the best mauy Thai guy in the world, we all know who’s going to win, or aikido vs bjj, same result



But that is not the point of the discussion is it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I'd say it's _some _the individual, but garbage in, garbage out.  An exceptional chef can make unhealthy food taste good, but can't make unhealthy food more nutritious.  If it's intrinsically unhealthy, no amount of skill, dedication, or aptitude will change that.
> 
> Regarding the number of times it has been said, I honestly don't know and wasn't counting.  It's bunk that is shared often to justify junk food martial arts training models.  In my opinion.



But not all individuals are the same.... not all can do BJJ or Muay Thai.... some are tall, some are short, some re male some are female....so therefore they are not able to defend themselves, is that what is being put forth here? I sure s heck can't do Japanese Jujutsu these days at all, but I use to be pretty good at it....

I can get the same quality steak to make a dish and then the chef makes the difference...but people, individuals, are not steak or controllable products.... no two humans are the same, so therefore, IMO, no to combined arts will work the same for everyone, therefore the individual matters


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Sorry. I am super slow. Above is an example.


Good article. Very interesting dynamic. I never trained judo. My Dad and great uncle were both judokas. They grew up in Hawaii on Oahu. My great uncle was a student of Sensei Okazaki before ww2.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> He has a point though, some styles are superior, put the bast aikido guy in the world against the best mauy Thai guy in the world, we all know who’s going to win, or aikido vs bjj, same result


Do we really know that?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Can we stop with the "it's *all *the individual" stuff?  That is complete nonsense.


I don’t think it’s nonsense, but please elaborate your point. I’m not sure why  we need to stop giving our opinion, or why that statement bothers anyone.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I'd say it's _some _the individual, but garbage in, garbage out.  An exceptional chef can make unhealthy food taste good, but can't make unhealthy food more nutritious.  If it's intrinsically unhealthy, no amount of skill, dedication, or aptitude will change that.
> 
> Regarding the number of times it has been said, I honestly don't know and wasn't counting.  It's bunk that is shared often to justify junk food martial arts training models.  In my opinion.


Well if you havent actually tried all of the foods or chefs then your blanket statements are objectively bunk as well. Maybe you as the individual are beyond any training because you already “know” about things you have no experience with. That is a lofty place indeed that you cast your opinions from. Please enlighten me about my junk food martial arts training.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> He has a point though, some styles are superior, put the bast aikido guy in the world against the best mauy Thai guy in the world, we all know who’s going to win, or aikido vs bjj, same result


Once again I find myself in disagreement with you.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Another is the ban on leg grabs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that leg grabs are incredibly effective. What I worry about is knee injuries while training. In the local Carlson Gracie BJJ school, white belts taking down white belts have caused a few serious knee injuries. I’m wary of rolling with other white belts and even one particular blue belt for that exact reason. I really don’t know much about it, but having seen it happen, I don’t want any knee damage in my fifties. Call me chicken, but I will like to keep my drumsticks intact.


----------



## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> But not all individuals are the same.... not all can do BJJ or Muay Thai.... some are tall, some are short, some re male some are female....so therefore they are not able to defend themselves, is that what is being put forth here? I sure s heck can't do Japanese Jujutsu these days at all, but I use to be pretty good at it....
> 
> I can get the same quality steak to make a dish and then the chef makes the difference...but people, individuals, are not steak or controllable products.... no two humans are the same, so therefore, IMO, no to combined arts will work the same for everyone, therefore the individual matters


That’s all true. It’s not a zero sum thing.  That’s the entire point.


----------



## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well if you havent actually tried all of the foods or chefs then your blanket statements are objectively bunk as well. Maybe you as the individual are beyond any training because you already “know” about things you have no experience with. That is a lofty place indeed that you cast your opinions from. Please enlighten me about my junk food martial arts training.


You don’t have to try a food to know objectively whether it is healthy or not. 

And before people get upset, i have no agenda abiut one style over another.  Do what floats your boat.  But we can objectively say that some training models work and some do not.  In the same way you may like Fritos and I may not.  But we can objectively agree they are not all that good for you.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> You don’t have to try a food to know objectively whether it is healthy or not.
> 
> And before people get upset, i have no agenda abiut one style over another.  Do what floats your boat.  But we can objectively say that some training models work and some do not.  In the same way you may like Fritos and I may not.  But we can objectively agree they are not all that good for you.


That’s a round about way of saying your opinion is true, even if you know absolutely nothing about the training models that you denigrate. It is rather cowardly and obviously ignorant. You DO in fact have an agenda, it is obvious as this is not the first time you throw insults like that into a conversation. You are fully aware of what are doing when you make those blanket statements. If you so stridently believe such things, then have the courage of your convictions and give examples of humans and training models instead of analogies to coffee or food which nothing to do with the thread topic. If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, I invite YOU to stop inciting arguments if you claim to have no skin in the game or individual agenda. We have all read your posts, you need a new dead horse, this one is dust.


----------



## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s a round about way of saying your opinion is true, even if you know absolutely nothing about the training models that you denigrate. It is rather cowardly and obviously ignorant. You DO in fact have an agenda, it is obvious as this is not the first time you throw insults like that into a conversation. You are fully aware of what are doing when you make those blanket statements. If you so stridently believe such things, then have the courage of your convictions and give examples of humans and training models instead of analogies to coffee or food which nothing to do with the thread topic. If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, I invite YOU to stop inciting arguments if you claim to have no skin in the game or individual agenda. We have all read your posts, you need a new dead horse, this one is dust.


Jesus Christ. Chill out. If you don’t agree you can ignore me, disagree politely, or just move on.  Your post is inappropriate.  I’m not sure why you’re so upset, but clearly a nerve has been struck.  Take a beat and try again when you are able to chat like an adult.

But before responding, go back and reread my post and respond to what’s there and not whatever you have going on in your imagination.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> But not all individuals are the same.... not all can do BJJ or Muay Thai.... some are tall, some are short, some re male some are female....so therefore they are not able to defend themselves, is that what is being put forth here? I sure s heck can't do Japanese Jujutsu these days at all, but I use to be pretty good at it....
> 
> I can get the same quality steak to make a dish and then the chef makes the difference...but people, individuals, are not steak or controllable products.... no two humans are the same, so therefore, IMO, no to combined arts will work the same for everyone, therefore the individual matters



If the system of training doesn't make a person better at that thing. Then what is the point of the system?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree that leg grabs are incredibly effective. What I worry about is knee injuries while training. In the local Carlson Gracie BJJ school, white belts taking down white belts have caused a few serious knee injuries. I’m wary of rolling with other white belts and even one particular blue belt for that exact reason. I really don’t know much about it, but having seen it happen, I don’t want any knee damage in my fifties. Call me chicken, but I will like to keep my drumsticks intact.



You can do in a knee with a hip throw or a leg reap.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well if you havent actually tried all of the foods or chefs then your blanket statements are objectively bunk as well. Maybe you as the individual are beyond any training because you already “know” about things you have no experience with. That is a lofty place indeed that you cast your opinions from. Please enlighten me about my junk food martial arts training.



Satisfaction does not always equal effectiveness.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If the system of training doesn't make a person better at that thing. Then what is the point of the system?


 But the system may be great at making you better, but not me based on my physicality. Point is, a system can be great, but not great for every single person. No two people are alike and not everything is jumping in the ring to fight a match. There is absolutely no way I could train BJJ, does that make BJJ a bad art? No, it means I have had a knee replacement, nor would Judo or even Aikido be a great choice for me. JKD might, Wing Chun works, Muay Thai likely not. Does that mean Muay Thai, Bjj, Judo and Aikido are lacking? or that they just don't fit me?


----------



## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> But the system may be great at making you better, but not me based on my physicality. Point is, a system can be great, but not great for every single person. No two people are alike and not everything is jumping in the ring to fight a match. There is absolutely no way I could train BJJ, does that make BJJ a bad art? No, it means I have had a knee replacement, nor would Judo or even Aikido be a great choice for me. JKD might, Wing Chun works, Muay Thai likely not. Does that mean Muay Thai, Bjj, Judo and Aikido are lacking? or that they just don't fit me?



For what it’s worth, talking about some styles or other are lacking is missing the point entirely.  I don’t think any style is intrinsically better or worse than any other.  but how you learn and what you do with it certainly does. 

And it is objectively true that some training models are more reliable than others.  Take your 100 average people and train them one way or another, and you will see clear differences in results.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Sep 1, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Yes the Philippines can be safe and it can be bricks ( actually saw it start as I was riding away in a cab ) and even blades from history so could happen.
> 
> I am just saying that if you ignore weapons you are ignoring a major section of self defense.





Rich Parsons said:


> Yes the Philippines can be safe and it can be bricks ( actually saw it start as I was riding away in a cab ) and even blades from history so could happen.
> 
> I am just saying that if you ignore weapons you are ignoring a major section of self defense.


Absolutely your right there, can’t argue with that


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree that leg grabs are incredibly effective. What I worry about is knee injuries while training.


You don't need to drop that low to execute your single leg. 





Actually, when you drop that low, your oponent can pull the back of your neck to make you to kiss the ground.


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Sep 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Once again I find myself in disagreement with you.


But why good sir when clearly I am right


----------



## gerardfoy50 (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Do we really know that?


Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> For what it’s worth, talking about some styles or other are lacking is missing the point entirely.  I don’t think any style is intrinsically better or worse than any other.  but how you learn and what you do with it certainly does.
> 
> And it is objectively true that some training models are more reliable than others.  Take your 100 average people and train them one way or another, and you will see clear differences in results.



Agreed...but define "average people"... what makes a person average...and I am thinking you are talking physically.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way



Problem with that scenario...... Aikido is not a sport, therefore there is no such thing as an "Aikido Champ"


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Agreed...but define "average people"... what makes a person average...and I am thinking you are talking physically.


Like average.  I mean, it really doesn't matter.  Take a random group of 100 men who are 40 years old.  Or 30... or 20... or women.  If they aren't physically capable of performing the task, I get it.  We agree that individual is _some _of it.

But you take 100 similar people with no particular aptitude for an activity, how they are trained and how they use their training will make clear, obvious differences in their skill level.  This is true for any activity.  You take 100 people and teach them BJJ, some in a good program where opportunity to apply their skills, they will obviously outperform those in a poor program.

We can get into what "good" means, but that's a different discussion.  The point is, it's not ALL the individual.  It's a little the individual, and a lot the program.

Edit:  Guys, I don't know why this is controversial.  I was pointing out that "it's all about the individual" is nonsense... it's an absolute statement that is clearly not true.  I think it's much more accurate and reasonable to say that it's some (a little) about the individual, and a lot about how they train and apply the skills.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Satisfaction does not always equal effectiveness.


I agree with your statement. In each individual case we don’t know the effectiveness. For example, I trained in several martial arts. I would hesitate to call myself mma, but perhaps that is true. I use boxing skills, jujitsu skills, CMA skills and add a few things I have learned from different folks over the years. It seems to have been effective for me. I have not competed using those skills in a sanctioned event so I can’t speak to how well i would do in that arena. I am never satisfied with my performance, I train hard, and I am honest and realistic about my ability. I am past any fighting prime in my fifties but I do believe I have some skills after a lifetime of training. I don’t claim to have the best, and I am certain there is much that I am ignorant of in martial arts. I am always open to learning new things from others. That’s why I have a white belt in BJJ. I am of the firm belief that I must stay open to concepts and ideas that I am unfamiliar with if I want to grow as a martial artist. To do that, I have to be willing to put aside what I think I know.


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## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> And that's why I keep my socks on lol.  But seriously, I need to wear black socks so my white socks can stop turning brown lol. I wish there was something we could clean the mats with.


Soap, water and elbow grease?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> It's a little the individual, and a lot the program.


Agree with you 100% on this. If an Aikido instructor sents all his students to compete in Judo/wrestling/boxing/Sanda/MMA/... tournament, he will have some good Aikido fighters.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Problem with that scenario...... Aikido is not a sport, therefore there is no such thing as an "Aikido Champ"


Really


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Like average.  I mean, it really doesn't matter.  Take a random group of 100 men who are 40 years old.  Or 30... or 20... or women.  If they aren't physically capable of performing the task, I get it.  We agree that individual is _some _of it.
> 
> But you take 100 similar people with no particular aptitude for an activity, how they are trained and how they use their training will make clear, obvious differences in their skill level.  This is true for any activity.  You take 100 people and teach them BJJ, some in a good program where opportunity to apply their skills, they will obviously outperform those in a poor program.
> 
> ...



Same can be said for anything, Yoga, BJJ, Barn dancing, Aikido, MMA, Rock climbing, Water skiing, Wrestling, Tap dancing, Race car driving, Gymnastics...... and good program generally will give you better results than a bad program..... but still..... it depends on the individual as to how good they will get at any of it...

I won't take it further, only to say we do not agree on to what degree the individual plays. I feel it is a lot more than you do. And I'm ok with that disagreement.

I am simply not going to make this about style vs style, which seems to be where some want to take it. Because style vs style is not what I am talking about at all, I am talking about individual ability


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Really



yup


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I won't take it further, only to say we so not agree on to what degree the individual plays. I feel it is a lot more than you do. And I'm ok with that disagreement.


Sounds good. 


Xue Sheng said:


> I am simply not going to make this about style vs style, which seems to be where some want to take it. Because style vs style is not what I am talking about at all


We agree on this completely.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> We agree on this completely.


 Yup

Sorry, I edited that a bit, your response was quicker than my edit, but I did not change what I said.


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## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way


I'm all in with you on boxing having great hands. Period.

But let's not lose sight of why, the ONLY why, Connor McGregor took that boxing match.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way


That's a bad comparison to prove boxing is the best hands only style. Not only did he take on the 'boxing champ' but he did so in boxing rules. Meaning not just "only hands", but having to fight with all the other limitations of boxing. This means they've got to use specific gloves, that are different than the ones McGregor is used to, and the round system was boxing rounds rather than UFC rounds, which can mess with someone's stamina (which is already McGregor's biggest issue in the UFC).

To add to that, the two champs aren't on the same level. Mayweather has won 50 matches with no losses, while McGregor won 22 matches and 7. So you're taking someone who never loses against someone who does lose, and expect it to prove something that the guy who never loses won again? Add to that the guy who is 22 and 7 now was 21 and 3 at the time, lost this match and 3 of his next 4, so he just reached the dip in his athletic career when this match happened.

To add to that, one win/loss doesn't prove anything. That's the issue with style vs. style. Take pretty much any sport, and you'll see multiple instances _per week _of the better team losing to the worse team. That's why most sports don't have 1 game eliminations. Look at baseball world series or NBA finals from last year; both finals went 4 and 2. That means that twice the "worse team" won. If you wanted to prove anything specific here, you'd need to take multiple boxing champs, multiple ufc champs, and have them face off against each other multiple different times. Only then could you have anything statistically significant enough to make any sort of claim from.

To add to that, even if there were neutral rounds/gloves/other rules (keeping just hands), Mayweather and McGregor were equal in their respective sport, and managed to fight enough times, with enough other champs added in to determine which is better, it still wouldn't prove that boxing is the best hands only style. All it would prove is that boxing is better than MMA at hands-only fighting. Which is expected, since MMA doesn't try to be the best at any one thing-it shouldn't be the best hands style, foot style, throwing style or ground grappling style. So it's not a good benchmark for that, and does nothing to suggest that boxing is better than wing chun, karate, muay Thai, kalaripayattu, bando, or any number of other arts, when it comes to hands.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's a bad comparison to prove boxing is the best hands only style. Not only did he take on the 'boxing champ' but he did so in boxing rules. Meaning not just "only hands", but having to fight with all the other limitations of boxing. This means they've got to use specific gloves, that are different than the ones McGregor is used to, and the round system was boxing rounds rather than UFC rounds, which can mess with someone's stamina (which is already McGregor's biggest issue in the UFC).
> 
> To add to that, the two champs aren't on the same level. Mayweather has won 50 matches with no losses, while McGregor won 22 matches and 7. So you're taking someone who never loses against someone who does lose, and expect it to prove something that the guy who never loses won again? Add to that the guy who is 22 and 7 now was 21 and 3 at the time, lost this match and 3 of his next 4, so he just reached the dip in his athletic career when this match happened.
> 
> ...


Side note: I agree with OP that boxing is probably the best style if you limit a fight to just punching, nothing else. But that's a horrible example to use as evidence.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> But why good sir when clearly I am right


If you believe that, then you are naive.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way


I am not aware of this event, but I will accept it at face value for the sake of discussion.  I have heard of Conor McGregor but that is about it.  I don’t watch MMA nor boxing, they simply hold no interest for me.   

So you take the outcome of one event that took place within a certain venue, and you believe that you can make a sweeping conclusion from it?  Hmmm…


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 1, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way



This is not a challenge and anyone reads it that way, please read this again. Please

If there are two people who train two different arts. Let us say person A and person B, study art X & Y respectively. 

If they have three "fights" on the same day, one by person A's fighting style of X's rules with the second being person B's fighting style of Y's rules, and then the third with no rules (empty hands, with all moves allowed and all body targets open). 

One could argue which system is better as it would be one in favor one each and one totally with no rules. 
Yet that also favors those with more athleticism or hard contact. 
And gosh forbid one of the two ways is actually using a weapon. (* Illegal in almost all areas where laws are present *) 

Yet what this means is that on that day those two people met under those conditions and rules or lack there of , and the out come was determined. 

On a different day it could be different. 


Full Disclosure: I am not a fan of UFC because Dana White and how he has handled a few instances including Conor's interactions with the others. I also think Conor is a PoS. Not speaking of his skills or how he is in shape, or who could beat whom. So this is not a defense for the UFC nor for Conor directly or indirectly, it is to point out that it truly does depend.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If the system of training doesn't make a person better at that thing. Then what is the point of the system?


This isn't directed to you.  I'm just using your statement as a lead into a general statement about the entire discussion of  "is it the individual or the system."

Depends on the individual and what they want to get out of the system.  Not everyone who trains Jow Ga kung fu wants to be able to fight with it.  Some people just want to look good doing the forms.  Ultimately it's up to the individual as to what purpose the system will serve them.

With that said. There are flawed systems out there.  But again.  If you want to be a cool stuntman with cool fighting scenes then it's ok for the system to be flawed for fighting yet valid for entertainment. 

For example: Gun Kata = Flawed system.  But for entertainment. Totally awesome.










Now if you are going to look at Gun Kata and debate if it's an valid fighting system, then my question is why? If you are going to debate if it's the system or the individual that makes Gun Kata a valid system, then my question is why?   It would be like debating if an SUV is a valid boat.  If people want to debate the statement.  "It's the individual not the system"  then you must first look at the system and determine what category you are defining. 

Are you defining Fighting Systems, Spiritual Systems, or Entertainment Systems.

For example.  For every valid Fighting System.  It is the individual not the system, that makes the actual fighting valid.  Proof of this is that 2 different people can take the same system for the same amount of years under the same teacher and after the same number of training years.  It is possible to have one person that excels in the system and the other person that sucks at it.   Think of it like tennis.  Not everyone is going to be good at tennis no matter how long they train.  Why is this the case? Because it's the individual and not the system.


Some people are good at using Aikido to fight with.  Why are those people good with using Aikido and other aren't.  Sometimes it's the training methods and not the system.  Sometimes it's the individual and not the system,  like with Rokus.  Sometimes it's the teacher, teaching the system in a way that's not valid for fighting.  But I can tell you that if the goal is to fight with Aikido then the training will reflect that purpose and a lot of the spiritual context would fall off.  Sort of like Tai chi. People who actually want to learn to use it to fight with will have this in their training. 











But ultimately it's going to be up to the individual an the path that they want to take.  Train it for exercises or train it for applicable use.  If the system isn't valid for fighting then there's no need to include that system into the debate of "is it the individual or the system." when it comes to fighting systems.  That's just a pointless and it leads to no intelligent benefit.  Compare things of the same category within the same Context.   Until Chi Ball martial arts train as a fighting system, it should no longer be used as an example of "it's the system."  That's just comparing 2 different things with 2 different purposes and functions.  An Suv is not a Boat so stop using it as an example of "why it's the system."  Compare boats with boats   Compare fighting systems with fighting systems.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 1, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Side note: I agree with OP that boxing is probably the best style if you limit a fight to just punching, nothing else. But that's a horrible example to use as evidence.



Filipino Martial Arts - I think would be a good Hands only answer to Boxing. And then I would say it would depend upon the weight class, the time in training (Practice hours) and sparing / application. 

Of course, FMA practitioners also are known for drinking and smoking and eating bad food, so they might have a disadvantage in that area.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Side note: I agree with OP that boxing is probably the best style if you limit a fight to just punching, nothing else. But that's a horrible example to use as evidence.


This is my perspective as well.  If we are only talking about punching then yes.  But if boxing had to use their hands to defend against strikes that are illegal in boxing, then boxing isn't going to have the best hands.   If boxing had to use their hands to defend against a wrestler, then their hands would fail them.

Everything must be put in context. When the context changes then so will the reality of "Boxer has the best hands."

Kung Fu has great footwork, but it works better on a floor that doesn't give, than a mat that does.  The way that I move on a hard floor isn't the same energy and speed that I move on a surface that gives.  Context is everything.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Filipino Martial Arts - I think would be a good Hands only answer to Boxing. And then I would say it would depend upon the weight class, the time in training (Practice hours) and sparing / application.
> 
> Of course, FMA practitioners also are known for drinking and smoking and eating bad food, so they might have a disadvantage in that area.


Wait, you mean that context matters, and it depends on numerous variables?  Who wudda guessed??


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Side note: I agree with OP that boxing is probably the best style if you limit a fight to just punching, nothing else. But that's a horrible example to use as evidence.


I don’t, but ya know, that’s why we all have opinions.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This isn't directed to you.  I'm just using your statement as a lead into a general statement about the entire discussion of  "is it the individual or the system."
> 
> Depends on the individual and what they want to get out of the system.  Not everyone who trains Jow Ga kung fu wants to be able to fight with it.  Some people just want to look good doing the forms.  Ultimately it's up to the individual as to what purpose the system will serve them.
> 
> ...



No. That is martial arts sales gobbledygook for our system doesn't do the thing we say it does.

If you do system A and everyone gets consistently better then system A works.

If you do system B and the only person who can make it work is the 6 foot elite athlete. Then system B doesn't work.

The reason it is the individual is because the training is obviously having no effect. The more genetically gifted do better. The less do worse.

By default this would make it a system that you probably shouldn't train.

This is literally how training works.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Side note: I agree with OP that boxing is probably the best style if you limit a fight to just punching, nothing else. But that's a horrible example to use as evidence.



But because of boxing, kick boxing, MMA and so on. There is a fair bit of evidence as to what works.


----------



## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This isn't directed to you.  I'm just using your statement as a lead into a general statement about the entire discussion of  "is it the individual or the system."
> 
> Depends on the individual and what they want to get out of the system.  Not everyone who trains Jow Ga kung fu wants to be able to fight with it.  Some people just want to look good doing the forms.  Ultimately it's up to the individual as to what purpose the system will serve them.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to cherry pick, but this  "Some people just want to look good doing the forms."

I have honestly never met anyone who wanted that. Not even friends of mine who live by Kata.

Man, I gotta' get out more.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> But the system may be great at making you better, but not me based on my physicality. Point is, a system can be great, but not great for every single person. No two people are alike and not everything is jumping in the ring to fight a match. There is absolutely no way I could train BJJ, does that make BJJ a bad art? No, it means I have had a knee replacement, nor would Judo or even Aikido be a great choice for me. JKD might, Wing Chun works, Muay Thai likely not. Does that mean Muay Thai, Bjj, Judo and Aikido are lacking? or that they just don't fit me?



That is fine. But it doesn't change the rule of objectively works.

So while I made the argument that folk wrestling is a system more suited to self defence. That doesn't mean judo doesn’t work.

Because judo objectively works.

If we are discussing system that have no evidence they objectively work. Then having a bad knee doesn't make them work.

Fighting doesn't care about your bad knee. Or bad day or busy schedule. You absolutely can fit martial arts around your lifestyle. But you just won't be as effective if you do. If someone doesn't have a bad knee or bad day or busy schedule then they are more likely to beat you up.

You can even do combat sports with a bad knee bad day or busy schedule. You just won't be comparatively very good at it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That is fine. But it doesn't change the rule of objectively works.
> 
> So while I made the argument that folk wrestling is a system more suited to self defence. That doesn't mean judo doesn’t work.
> 
> ...



yes, your point is..... I was never talking styles or systems or better or worse and you just made my argument for me, thank you.... it depends on the individual as to what will work best....again, thanks

I was only addressing Steve's post


Steve said:


> Can we stop with the "it's *all *the individual" stuff?  That is complete nonsense.


And per your post, you appeared to have just agreed with me, the individual matters, quite a lot actually, and its not nonsense...again, thanks


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

Buka said:


> I don't mean to cherry pick, but this  "Some people just want to look good doing the forms."
> 
> I have honestly never met anyone who wanted that. Not even friends of mine who live by Kata.
> 
> Man, I gotta' get out more.


I suppose people who do XMA or Modern Wushu would fall into this category.  It is meant as a performance art.  

But they are doing very different forms from traditional Kata or Chinese forms.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> yes, your point is..... I was never talking styles or systems or better or worse and you just made my argument for me, thank you.... it depends on the individual as to what will work best....again, thanks
> 
> I was only addressing Steve's post
> 
> And per your post, you appeared to have just agreed with me, the individual matters, quite a lot actually, and its not nonsense...again, thanks



Only if you don’t care about the results. Because we are back to satisfaction does not always equal effectiveness.

If you care about the results there are less opportunities to provide satisfaction because you have to take from a much smaller pool of options.

The individual argument tries to disguise this by suggesting there is much more impact by a person's genetics than by the thing you are selling them. 

If we looked at this medically it is the equivalent of me selling a covid vaccine made from chocolate.

Some people would get better. Some people would die. It would depend on the individual.

Now chocolate is easier to take than a needle full of mystery gunk. So I could argue that for people who are afraid of needles my cure is more appropriate.

But I don't think it is an ethical approach and if you think about it critically. It is not a very persuasive argument.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Only if you don’t care about the results. Because we are back to satisfaction does not always equal effectiveness.



You're still trying to argue for, or against something I am not talking about at all. And I'm not biting, so thanks again


----------



## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I suppose people who do XMA or Modern Wushu would fall into this category.  It is meant as a performance art.
> 
> But they are doing very different forms from traditional Kata or Chinese forms.


I agree. And I've known some wushu guys and gals in my day. I know a lot of martial people, know a lot of guys who do a lot of form work, I've watched them do so at their dojo. Man, it's a workout and a half. They do their forms with a sense of purpose, almost like they're angry and killing something with it.

They do look good doing them, but they don't seem to even know that, they're way too far into the internal aspects and I'd not want to stumble into their path. That would suck.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> You're still trying to argue for, or against something I am not talking about at all. And I'm not biting, so thanks again



I don't think you have thought this through properly. 

There are a lot of things said to support a martial art that sounds good. But do not really stand up to scrutiny.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I don't think you have thought this through properly.
> 
> There are a lot of things said to support a martial art that sounds good. But do not really stand up to scrutiny.



Nothing to think about on this, it is not at all what I was taking about, not even remotely close......but please, feel free to keep trying to get me into an argument that I am not trying to make


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing to think about on this, it is not at all what I was taking about, not even remotely close......but please, feel free to keep trying to get me into an argument that I am not trying to make



Did you read the rest of it?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

Buka said:


> I agree. And I've known some wushu guys and gals in my day. I know a lot of martial people, know a lot of guys who do a lot of form work, I've watched them do so at their dojo. Man, it's a workout and a half. They do their forms with a sense of purpose, almost like they're angry and killing something with it.
> 
> They do look good doing them, but they don't seem to even know that, they're way too far into the internal aspects and I'd not want to stumble into their path. That would suck.


Well, I’ve known a good number of Modern Wushu folks; my first Sifu was also a coach for MW and headed the team for one of the major California universities.  I told him I was only interested in the traditional methods, and he always respected my wishes.  But I knew some people who trained in that context and method, including competing at the annual UC Berkeley Chinese Martial Art tournament where I competed in traditional forms, and they competed in MW.  MW people can be tremendous athletes.  It is akin to a gymnastics floor routine with a heavy martial influence.  I can respect the hell out of that.  Some of them I think were also training in a traditional method so they had a better sense of the combative application. Those who did strictly MW, putting aside their athleticism, my impression is that they don’t have much for the combat.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Did you read the rest of it?



Yup.... have a nice day


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree with your statement. In each individual case we don’t know the effectiveness. For example, I trained in several martial arts. I would hesitate to call myself mma, but perhaps that is true. I use boxing skills, jujitsu skills, CMA skills and add a few things I have learned from different folks over the years. It seems to have been effective for me. I have not competed using those skills in a sanctioned event so I can’t speak to how well i would do in that arena. I am never satisfied with my performance, I train hard, and I am honest and realistic about my ability. I am past any fighting prime in my fifties but I do believe I have some skills after a lifetime of training. I don’t claim to have the best, and I am certain there is much that I am ignorant of in martial arts. I am always open to learning new things from others. That’s why I have a white belt in BJJ. I am of the firm belief that I must stay open to concepts and ideas that I am unfamiliar with if I want to grow as a martial artist. To do that, I have to be willing to put aside what I think I know.



Where for example you could do a krav and even at 50 would clean up everyone in the room. The training is designed for you to win.

Where bjj. You might spend years getting manhandled by everyone.

One is designed to produce satisfaction. And the other sacrifices satisfaction to produce effectiveness.


This for example you could do with a bad knee or on a bad day. Because regardless as to how ineffective you are you are going to win. 






And the argument is it is more suited to older or time poor and so on. But I don't believe it is. It is just an easier game to beat.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. That is martial arts sales gobbledygook for our system doesn't do the thing we say it does.


Martial arts sales gobbledygook doesn't have anything to do with the function of a system.   We can either talk about marketing or we can talk about the function of a Martial Arts and the context in which people train it.   

For example.  Your issue is that some school sale gobbledygook marketing by promising that a system does something that it doesn't do.
If that same school was honest about what system does then you wouldn't be upset.  What has changed? Did the marketing change or did the system change.  If they were honest about what the system does or doesn't do, then you wouldn't complain about it.  Just like you don't complain about Tai chi for heath or Fitness boxing.




drop bear said:


> If you do system A and everyone gets consistently better then system A works.


No such thing exists where everyone gets better.  Name any system and there will be examples of someone not getting better or someone hitting ceiling.  When watch in "real time" of what happened with Ivan and boxing.

Getting better at a system doesn't mean one is better at fighting.  There are many people who train Jow Ga who are better at doing Jow Ga than me.  However, there are very few who actually train Jow Ga application like I train it.  Some Jow Ga students don't care about fighting, they care about forms competition.  Is Jow Ga kung fu gobbledygook because those who only care about forms say "it's the individual not the system."  If that's the case then my training gobbledygook because I train the same system. 

Why can I successfully fight with Jow Ga and some other's cannot? Is it the system or is it the individual.

Why does my sparring look like this?  Is it the individual or the system?





And their sparring looks like this?  It's the same system I train in.  Is it the individual or the system?





Same system, different training methods, different training focuses, different individuals.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Every person that I train to fight will be able to fight by using Jow Ga Kung Fu.  Everyone that I train in Jow Ga Fu will not learn how to fight by using Jow Ga.  Why?  Because you don't have to learn how to fight in order to train Jow Ga Kung Fu.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> This for example you could do with a bad knee or on a bad day. Because regardless as to how ineffective you are you are going to win.
> 
> 
> And the argument is it is more suited to older or time poor and so on. But I don't believe it is. It is just an easier game to beat.


Same system different individuals


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Same system different individuals



Different systems. Same name.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No such thing exists where everyone gets better. Name any system and there will be examples of someone not getting better or someone hitting ceiling. When watch in "real time" of what happened with Ivan and boxing.



Is he getting better at jits. But not at boxing? But the individual right?


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Getting better at a system doesn't mean one is better at fighting. There are many people who train Jow Ga who are better at doing Jow Ga than me. However, there are very few who actually train Jow Ga application like I train it. Some Jow Ga students don't care about fighting, they care about forms competition. Is Jow Ga kung fu gobbledygook because those who only care about forms say "it's the individual not the system." If that's the case then my training gobbledygook because I train the same system.
> 
> Why can I successfully fight with Jow Ga and some other's cannot? Is it the system or is it the individual.
> 
> Why does my sparring look like this? Is it the individual or the system?



In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose one that makes them better at fighting.

In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose a system with a better strike rate than one guy can make it work.

Or no guys can make it work.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

The important thing to understand when choosing the best martial arts for self defence is there is no requirement for it to work.

If you buy a car and the wheels fall off you can return the car or sue the guy who sold it to you.

There is at least a minimum standard of performance.

Self defence does not have this problem. You can invest years and thousands of dollars and not gain a single thing from that experience. Even if the school in question has promised black and blue that you will achieve a result. 

It is just not a requirement. And there is nothing you can do about it after the fact. 

The onus is on the buyer to determine beforehand if the system they are going to use for self defence is going to work and at what level it is going to work. 


It is not a requirement to judge all styles as equal because you don’twant to upset people. And not to judge a style only after you have invested significant time and money in that style. 

This is not meant to be mean. It is your head on the block if something goes wrong. So be ruthless with your decisions before you have to face on the consequences.

A good self defence system will have a proven track record that you can see and test.

If you go to a class and every coloured belt ownes you every time. That is not because by some random chance a bunch of exceptional individuals just happened to be in the same place at the same time.

If after a few years you are handling everyone who walks in the door this does not mean you have suddenly become genetically better. 

This means the system consistently works. And would be a viable base art for self defence. 

It is not a mysterious secret hidden process when done correctly. It is straightforward, testable and observable.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Buka said:


> I don't mean to cherry pick, but this  "Some people just want to look good doing the forms."
> 
> I have honestly never met anyone who wanted that. Not even friends of mine who live by Kata.
> 
> Man, I gotta' get out more.


Thing is, I've never met a pygmy but I know they are out there.

Your school doesn't place importance on the showman ship of doing a form or kata then you won't meet people like that.  They don't drink at your water hole.  I know they are out there because I had one in the same school that I was in.  We gave her the nickname Hollywood. Everything had to be perfect vs practical.  Her focus bled into her sparring and often times the instructors had to remind her not to pose during sparring after striking.  

I've met people from other systems as well who were similar.  Then there's the extreme martial arts crowd.  I'm pretty sure this is not proper sword technique.  I'm not saying that it's bad.  This guy may be in an action movie in the future.





Then you have people like this.  You know what's important to them? Looking good, Looking cool, and not screwing up the performance. You know who would really suck at this type of stuff? People like you, and definitely people like me.   You know what's not exciting to watch?  Me doing forms lol





 I'm pretty sure there's version of me in the multiverse who is really good at this stuff and if I ever fall into  worm hole and land on his planet.  I will be sure to correct that error. lol





I'm just saying that people do martial arts for various reason.  We may not approve of the reasons, but it is what it is.  One of the coolest things to me was the Lion Dance.  My school needed some performers for Lion Dance as it helped fund the school.  So I gave it a try and ended up really liking it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I suppose people who do XMA or Modern Wushu would fall into this category.  It is meant as a performance art.
> 
> But they are doing very different forms from traditional Kata or Chinese forms.


yep. it's still Martial Arts some of the techniques are applicable while other techniques are for performance only.  They just don't train it to be applicable in a fight because that's not their focus.    Could it be applicable? yeah I'm pretty sure. Cut out the performance stuff get a sparring partner and do like everyone else does.  Work the practical techniques. In the system.



drop bear said:


> In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose one that makes them better at fighting.


And they do. People who really want to learn to fight usually learn and become good at it. The reason they become good at it is because they know the key things that they need to do such as sparring.  If a school doesn't have sparring then they aren't interested.  If the system isn't practical then they leave and go somewhere else.

Then you have some people who just want to have a good kick or a good punch, the basics.  They don't care about all of the extra stuff.  We have seen this in Alan.  But he's not the only one like that.

Then you have people who like the idea of being able to fight back but don't want to put in the work to actually be able to do it.  They don't want to spar, they don't want to get hit.

These are the 3 common groups that I saw when I taught martial arts.



drop bear said:


> In choosing a system for self defence people should probably choose a system with a better strike rate than one guy can make it work.


People choose the defense system that they think will work best with their personality, desires, and physical capabilities.  It's always been that way.  

As for "better strike rate than one guy can make it work." It depends.  For example, this sounds like me and my skill set of doing Jow Ga.  Then I remember teaching a Jow Ga sparring class where the students learned how to use some of the same techniques that I use.  Those that learned were those where those who followed my instructions.  Those that didn't learn were those who had doubts and thought of the lessons as "I think it should work like this." instead of "I'm going to try as the instructor suggested."

Anyone who followed my instruction was able to learn how to fight using Jow Ga.  I had two teens who were able to spar using some of the techniques I use.  Some of the adults learned from me once they were able to clear their minds and doubts.  I teach my brother concepts from Jow Ga and he uses them in Muay Thai.  Last time I spoke with him he was telling me that he was still having a high success rate with what I taught him. It took him 2 days to learn it.

You would probably not have the same success because of the general doubt that you have about TMA systems and the techniques that are used.  You would probably constantly try to edit a technique "To make it work" instead of using it within context of what I was teaching you.  From that perspective there's a lot of easy things that you think to be something only a few people can do.

If I thought I was the only one who fight using Jow Ga then I wouldn't bother teaching a sparring class designed to give people a chance to use the Jow Ga technique that they train.  Just something to think about,


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Funny this sounds very much like the individual and not the system.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Different systems. Same name.


where I come from "Different Systems" get "Different Names"


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2022)

If the electricians guild has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years, I’d say the electricians guild is clearly a better training program.  Some of you are saying it’s not better because 2% of folks still fail.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is he getting better at jits. But not at boxing? But the individual right?


I don't know what you are trying to say.  Literally I don't understand your shorthand here.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> If the electricians guild has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years, I’d say the electricians guild is clearly a better training program.  Some of you are saying it’s not better because 2% of folks still fail.


Please reference the post where someone has said this.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> where I come from "Different Systems" get "Different Names"



That might be the problem then. If you don't have consistency within your style and you can't really differentiate between one system and a other within that.

Then you are essentially rolling the dice


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The important thing to understand when choosing the best martial arts for self defence is there is no requirement for it to work.


I believe you would have a different perspective if you were the one who had to advertise and market a school to attract people who are seriously looking for self-defense.  You make the assumption that they don't know what to look for.  In my experience I have often found that my school was not the first school that they checked out, nor was it the first school they trained in.   They have requirements for what they expect of training and if your school doesn't meet those requirements then they will choose not to be a part of your school.

That's just the honest truth.  A lot of times the discussion in the threads make it seem like the people seeking martial arts don't know what they want.  Tell @Alan0354 that.  Based on the people who asked about Jow Ga and self-defense in the past, it wasn't their first time seeking out a martial arts school.  Same with the self defense class.  Many had taken other self defense classes so they had enough exposure to compare my school with past schools and classes they attended.  They weren't first timers who never took advantage of trial classes or invitations to come and watch classes.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know what you are trying to say.  Literally I don't understand your shorthand here.



Ok. The guy who couldn't perform well in one system changed systems and performed better.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That might be the problem then. If you don't have consistency within your style and you can't really differentiate between one system and a other within that.
> 
> Then you are essentially rolling the dice


Consistency is why different systems get different names.  You can't get consistency by have something with the same name doing 2 different things.  This is why you don't say BJJ is the same as Japanese Jiu-jitsu they are not the same thing.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I believe you would have a different perspective if you were the one who had to advertise and market a school to attract people who are seriously looking for self-defense.  You make the assumption that they don't know what to look for.  In my experience I have often found that my school was not the first school that they checked out, nor was it the first school they trained in.   They have requirements for what they expect of training and if your school doesn't meet those requirements then they will choose not to be a part of your school.
> 
> That's just the honest truth.  A lot of times the discussion in the threads make it seem like the people seeking martial arts don't know what they want.  Tell @Alan0354 that.  Based on the people who asked about Jow Ga and self-defense in the past, it wasn't their first time seeking out a martial arts school.  Same with the self defense class.  Many had taken other self defense classes so they had enough exposure to compare my school with past schools and classes they attended.  They weren't first timers who never took advantage of trial classes or invitations to come and watch classes.


People will accept an easy way out. 

So to sell self defence you sell the idea about learning an art that is strangely twice as dangerous but takes half the work. 

Detroit dust is still going gang busters for example. Yet people know what it takes to learn self defence?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. The guy who couldn't perform well in one system changed systems and performed better.


What about him?  We are good at some things and better at others.  What's your point?


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Consistency is why different systems get different names.  You can't get consistency by have something with the same name doing 2 different things.  This is why you don't say BJJ is the same as Japanese Jiu-jitsu they are not the same thing.



You were saying g jow gar you could either walk in to a school where people fight.

Or walk in to a school where they don't.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> What about him?  We are good at some things and better at others.  What's your point?



That when he changed systems he got better at fighting. He is doing a better system.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> yup


Ok fair enough my friend, how


Buka said:


> I'm all in with you on boxing having great hands. Period.
> 
> But let's not lose sight of why, the ONLY why, Connor McGregor took that boxing match.
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


eith great power comes great responsibility, to get rich


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 2, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's a bad comparison to prove boxing is the best hands only style. Not only did he take on the 'boxing champ' but he did so in boxing rules. Meaning not just "only hands", but having to fight with all the other limitations of boxing. This means they've got to use specific gloves, that are different than the ones McGregor is used to, and the round system was boxing rounds rather than UFC rounds, which can mess with someone's stamina (which is already McGregor's biggest issue in the UFC).
> 
> To add to that, the two champs aren't on the same level. Mayweather has won 50 matches with no losses, while McGregor won 22 matches and 7. So you're taking someone who never loses against someone who does lose, and expect it to prove something that the guy who never loses won again? Add to that the guy who is 22 and 7 now was 21 and 3 at the time, lost this match and 3 of his next 4, so he just reached the dip in his athletic career when this match happened.
> 
> ...


Good points for sure, boxing is a hands only style and definitely will struggle against any style that uses more than hands, however if we just focus on hands, let’s say the world it’s champ or the world karate champ went hands only using there own style of movement and rounds time limit against any boxing champ from the last 10 years, who would you bet your money on


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> If you believe that, then you are naive.


Perhaps I am,or perhaps I am right


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

Boxing kind of does a magic trick though. So instead of really reacting to punching they will move in a way that prevents it based on probability.(sort of)

It effectively means they are avoiding punches faster. And are able to attack with both hands rather than sacrificing a hand to defend.

Considering punches are very hard to see and even harder to catch. It is an incredibly effective striking method.






And so when people say boxing is just better. It is these guys at the top of the game as the reason why.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thing is, I've never met a pygmy but I know they are out there.
> 
> Your school doesn't place importance on the showman ship of doing a form or kata then you won't meet people like that.  They don't drink at your water hole.  I know they are out there because I had one in the same school that I was in.  We gave her the nickname Hollywood. Everything had to be perfect vs practical.  Her focus bled into her sparring and often times the instructors had to remind her not to pose during sparring after striking.
> 
> ...


You said people do martial arts for a variety of reasons, absolutely and it’s all good, my 11 year daughter started tkd 6 months ago, great for flexibility cause she was stiff as a board, great for fitness cause she’s lost weight, great as a social club making friends cause she was shy, great for building confidence cause standing up doing patterns in front of the class takes guts. Also sparring even though it’s soft touch gives an idea of how to fight.All these things are important in a street fight flexibility, fitness,confidence etc. But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> People will accept an easy way out.


That's just how some humans are.  If you don't have the power to change this about human nature then it's pointless to make it an issue.  The reality is that some people will take easy way out.  The only thing you can do create a school that fits your ideal student.  If you want a school that will be full of people who don't quit, then advertise to those type of people and that's all you'll have for students.

If you want to make a school for people who want the easy way out, then make a school for them and give out belts even though they are just participation rewards for showing up for a year of classes.  Each year = new belt.  If that's who you target market is then there's no point of being angry or disgusted about it.  Those type of student were never going to the "no quit" school any way.   At the end of the day regardless of what you teach.  Your school will need to make enough money to stay open.



drop bear said:


> So to sell self defence you sell the idea about learning an art that is strangely twice as dangerous but takes half the work.


Yep. and I tell you why.  Because there are people out there who are looking exactly for something like that.  They aren't looking for the "no quit school" or the "work out hard school."  An example during my first year training in the Jow Ga school that used to be in Georgia.   An ex student's parent came to visit the school to show off his daughters black belt and how soon she got it.  He told his daughter to show us her black belt form.  It was horrible, the girl didn't have confidence and she knew that her form was horrible.  Kids are young not stupid, they know when someone does something better than they can.  She saw how her old classmates were training and you know it was an instant comparison. But that's not the point.  The point is her father took her out of the Jow Ga school and enrolled her into another school who claimed that their training was more healthy for children.  The father told us that his daughter didn't have to worry about injury to her joints from the impact of punching a pad.  The girl was about 10 years old. 

So, yest there are people out there who want that easy stuff.  That's just the way things are.  I didn't want students or parents like that in the school so I never marketed to potential student who fit that characteristic.  The 2 instructors and I (before I became one) agreed that we would never seek students like that.  The only option that you'll have as a school is either advertise to people like that or don't.

People who are looking for good workouts and practical martial arts don't want easy.  When the original school first closed down.  One of the Jow Ga students took TKD.  She was disappointed because the training there didn't match the intensity of the training that we had at the school.  Another example,  a TKD student joined our school for about 3 months and never came back.  In one of the classes he told his mom that kung fu was too hard.  What we were doing wasn't hard.  He just didn't want to do all of the conditioning exercises that we were doing.  He wanted something easy so he left on his own.  His mom was the one who wanted something challenging for her son.



drop bear said:


> Detroit dust is still going gang busters for example. Yet people know what it takes to learn self defence?


There is a difference between knowing what it takes to learn something and being willing to do it.  I know what it takes to be a doctor, but I'd easily settle for something easier.  It can be frustrating sometimes to deal with people who always want the easy way out because their logic makes no sense to use.  But sooner we can accept that there people like that, then the less time we'll spend on pointing them out and more time focusing on things functional martial arts that can be used in fighting.  Instead of pointing out people who would never train where you train or see martial arts as the same as you do.

As for Detroit DUST.  People who like him don't like the same things you like.  They aren't the same people who would train in the same type of gym you train in.  They definitely aren't the same people who would take Jow Ga kung fu.  Instead of trying to change their minds I rather spend my time finding people who are interested in Jow Ga or training like I do.  Which is how I ended up having an MMA guy as a sparring partner and how he ended up with a Kung Fu practitioner as a sparring partner.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are


I agree.  Some people will do that.  For me personally recognizing my limits are just as important as recognizing my strengths.  I tell all of my students "fight where you are strong, not where you are weak."  The only way to do such a thing is to recognize my limits and then make sure that no one manipulates me into fighting where I'm not effective.

But not everyone is going to be honest like that.  Especially if the martial artist doesn't serve a functional purpose.  If they don't use it then it doesn't matter.  If they actually use what they train then it's going to matter right away even if you don't want it to.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You were saying g jow gar you could either walk in to a school where people fight.
> 
> Or walk in to a school where they don't.


yep.  Everyone learns the same techniques, but not everyone learns how to apply it.    So if fighting is a 10 step program then one school stops lessons at step 7 and the other stops the lessons at step 10.  With 10 being fighting competition and 9 being applications sparring on a resisting partner / attacking partner.

The difference between the schools isn't in the techniques,  It's in the time spent sparring with the techniques that are trained.  I could go to a Jow Ga school that doesn't spar and still train the same techniques that were in my school.  Even when people came to the school I trained in.  Sparring was always optional. Kids are always more open to it.  To them it was like play fighting (until they get the wind knocked out of them.). Adults tend to attach insecurities and excuses as to why they don't want to spar.  

To give you an idea of it.  I was kicked out of the school because  "I focused too much on fighting"  I was told that my vision of Jow Ga is not what Jow Ga is. If sparring was central to learning then that would have never been used for an excuse to kick me out of the school.
Fast forward about 9 years.  The world gets introduced to MMA vs Kung fu master.  As a result, many kung fu schools start putting that sparring element back into it and focusing on application a lot more.   Originally Jow Ga schools were known for producing good fighters.  Something changed and it became over focused on forms and lion dance.  Now it's coming back to it's original roots.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> yep.  Everyone learns the same techniques, but not everyone learns how to apply it.    So if fighting is a 10 step program then one school stops lessons at step 7 and the other stops the lessons at step 10.  With 10 being fighting competition and 9 being applications sparring on a resisting partner / attacking partner.
> 
> The difference between the schools isn't in the techniques,  It's in the time spent sparring with the techniques that are trained.  I could go to a Jow Ga school that doesn't spar and still train the same techniques that were in my school.  Even when people came to the school I trained in.  Sparring was always optional. Kids are always more open to it.  To them it was like play fighting (until they get the wind knocked out of them.). Adults tend to attach insecurities and excuses as to why they don't want to spar.
> 
> ...


Learning how to apply techniques is different to learning what the techniques are. 

You are not describing the same system in any practical sense. 

Might have the same name but it is literally teaching different things.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's just how some humans are.  If you don't have the power to change this about human nature then it's pointless to make it an issue.  The reality is that some people will take easy way out.  The only thing you can do create a school that fits your ideal student.  If you want a school that will be full of people who don't quit, then advertise to those type of people and that's all you'll have for students.
> 
> If you want to make a school for people who want the easy way out, then make a school for them and give out belts even though they are just participation rewards for showing up for a year of classes.  Each year = new belt.  If that's who you target market is then there's no point of being angry or disgusted about it.  Those type of student were never going to the "no quit" school any way.   At the end of the day regardless of what you teach.  Your school will need to make enough money to stay open.
> 
> ...



Ok. Some schools will cater to a certain student. 

But this in no way would recommend them as a school in which to learn self defence. Because fighting doesn't cater to a certain student. 

I mean this is basically why people pick a bunch of combat sports as a base style over some cater to a lifestyle martial arts. 

If you want to pick a best style for self defence you will need to sacrifice your personal likes and engage in the most effective process that will make you the best fighter. 

Suggesting otherwise is dishonest.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Ok fair enough my friend, how


How?
I don't understand the question
you said



gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way



I said there was a problem with that because Aikido is not a sport, therefore, no such thing as an Aikido champion

You replied with


gerardfoy50 said:


> Really



I said yup

and now you ask "How", which to be honest, I do not understand what you are asking

Well, I guess the only answer can be due to lack of an Aikido Competition...which brings us right back to, Aikido is not a sport, therefore no Aikido champion. You see, if there is no competition between aikidoka there is no way to declare a "Champion"


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Might have the same name but it is literally teaching different things.


But it's the same system.  You can't learn the application of a technique without learning what the techniques are.  If I teach you how to jab, then you will see the technique before you learn it.  You will train and drill the technique before you can use it.  Just because it's 2 different things does not mean it's a different system.

Learning how to speak english and learning how to read english are 2 different things but they are the same system.  English.  A person can learn to speak English without having the applications skills to read and write english.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If you want to pick a best style for self defence you will need to sacrifice your personal likes and engage in the most effective process that will make you the best fighter.


If I wanted to pick a best  style for self-defense then I would pick something that would be applicable to the type of self-defense that I need.  Am I looking to build descalation skills?  Am I looking to build, awareness skills?  Do I need to know how to fight or do I need to know how to safely navigate my area?
Am I senior citizen with health issues or do I have a handicap that make requires adjustments to my physical fighting.  Self-defense for a senior citizen who has health issues is not going to be answered by MMA.  This is why many people who teach self-defense will tell you that it's not all about fighting.

Fighting skills aren't always the answer to getting out of danger.  For some people fighting isn't going to be an option.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If the system of training doesn't make a person better at that thing. Then what is the point of the system?


If it were binary, it would be an easier discussion. What if it makes them better, but just not as efficiently, and likely with a lesser potential final improvement?

But they enjoy it, so keep training, and reach the best potential that system can offer them?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You can do in a knee with a hip throw or a leg reap.


True. It seems less likely with these, or maybe it’s just the way I experienced them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> For what it’s worth, talking about some styles or other are lacking is missing the point entirely.  I don’t think any style is intrinsically better or worse than any other.  but how you learn and what you do with it certainly does.
> 
> And it is objectively true that some training models are more reliable than others.  Take your 100 average people and train them one way or another, and you will see clear differences in results.


If their interest levels are the same, that’s true. But we know both anecdotally and from studies that personal interest has a significant impact on learning (attendance and retention).


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I wanted to pick a best  style for self-defense then I would pick something that would be applicable to the type of self-defense that I need.  Am I looking to build descalation skills?  Am I looking to build, awareness skills?  Do I need to know how to fight or do I need to know how to safely navigate my area?
> Am I senior citizen with health issues or do I have a handicap that make requires adjustments to my physical fighting.  Self-defense for a senior citizen who has health issues is not going to be answered by MMA.  This is why many people who teach self-defense will tell you that it's not all about fighting.
> 
> Fighting skills aren't always the answer to getting out of danger.  For some people fighting isn't going to be an option.


I would reference back to a form I started about "knowing what you teach." Awareness skills, and de-escalation skills are fantastic personal security skills to have, very much related to self-defense, but they are not martial arts skills. While you may have the good fortune of learning some of these skills in a dojo or gym, but they have nothing to do with the martial application of making that systems techniques work against a resisting attacker.

With that said, the better skilled you are at actually taking control of someone, or damaging someone if a fight happens, the better you can de-escalate from a position of advantage, not out of fear or nessesity.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way


That’s less about the technical system (though I’d argue that’s a big factor here, too) than what they train for. To find an Aikido “champ”, you’d have to look to Tomiki’s Aikido. They train primarily for and against their own style. The Gracies have purposely trained for and against other styles.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 2, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Good points for sure, boxing is a hands only style and definitely will struggle against any style that uses more than hands, however if we just focus on hands, let’s say the world it’s champ or the world karate champ went hands only using there own style of movement and rounds time limit against any boxing champ from the last 10 years, who would you bet your money on


That's what my side note was about. I wasn't arguing about your actual argument itself (that boxing is best if you strip away everything but punching), just the evidence you used for it. 

I'd also not call it just hands-for 'hands only' I might give it to sambo since a lot of grappling is done with hands. Punching only is a different story. That's just me being nitpicky


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I wanted to pick a best  style for self-defense then I would pick something that would be applicable to the type of self-defense that I need.  Am I looking to build descalation skills?  Am I looking to build, awareness skills?  Do I need to know how to fight or do I need to know how to safely navigate my area?
> Am I senior citizen with health issues or do I have a handicap that make requires adjustments to my physical fighting.  Self-defense for a senior citizen who has health issues is not going to be answered by MMA.  This is why many people who teach self-defense will tell you that it's not all about fighting.
> 
> Fighting skills aren't always the answer to getting out of danger.  For some people fighting isn't going to be an option.


Regarding senior citizens with health issues or a handicap, this is where firearms related self-defense skills shine. Although some martial arts weapon retention skills come into play, this is where(if legally available) firearms should be a strong consideration instead of a "less physical" and "less effective" unarmed martial arts program.

Again the solution is found outside of a dojo. Although depending on the situation, knife related training may be a realistic option. But ultimately the firearm is the most realistic. As they say, God made everyone, but Sam Colt made them equal.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Filipino Martial Arts - I think would be a good Hands only answer to Boxing. And then I would say it would depend upon the weight class, the time in training (Practice hours) and sparing / application.
> 
> Of course, FMA practitioners also are known for drinking and smoking and eating bad food, so they might have a disadvantage in that area.


I thought about that actually, though am biased. FMA definitely have a unique fighting style that blends well against boxing. My only concern is that a lot of the open handed stuff is done with the idea that you are trying to get to your weapon, and less time is spent on hands. So while it _could _be better, I'm not sure that in reality, average practitioner vs. average practitioner, if you limit yourself to just punches (which i assume is what OP means by hands only) it is.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t, but ya know, that’s why we all have opinions.


Yup. And this is one of those that there's no real answer for. So opinions can vary wildly


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But because of boxing, kick boxing, MMA and so on. There is a fair bit of evidence as to what works.


This is definitely a problem in systems that don’t compete much. It’s hard to get a good baseline on reliability.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But because of boxing, kick boxing, MMA and so on. There is a fair bit of evidence as to what works.


Yup. Just not the evidence OP cited. Which was my only real point there. Stick to actual evidence, not anecdotal one-off fights


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

Buka said:


> I don't mean to cherry pick, but this  "Some people just want to look good doing the forms."
> 
> I have honestly never met anyone who wanted that. Not even friends of mine who live by Kata.
> 
> Man, I gotta' get out more.


I’ve trained with some folks who gave lip service to wanting to be better at fighting skill, but who focused all their energy on other areas. I think they thought they “should” be interested in self-defense (since that’s the orientation of the art), but weren’t actually. I don’t think they’d have stayed training at some places, because the things they wanted to focus on wouldn’t have kept up with others.


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## Steve (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If their interest levels are the same, that’s true. But we know both anecdotally and from studies that personal interest has a significant impact on learning (attendance and retention).


I think my point is pretty clear, Gerry, and I'm not trying to beat the dead horse.  Some systems (call it training model or whatever) are just objectively better at building skill than others.  There is such a thing as bad training, and bad training is agnostic to style.  This is an objectively demonstrable fact that can be easily observed by evaluating performance on a macro level.  Not my opinion, and not unique to martial arts.  In fact, as others have said (though I think they believe they are disagreeing with me), it's the same with any developed skill.

Earlier I used the analogy of an electrician's guild that has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years.  As I said, the electrician's guild is clearly a better training program.  You can see it plain as day demonstrated in their results.  Some of the folks here are suggesting that it is no better or worse because 2% of folks still fail... because individuals.

And I will reiterate that nothing above negates other possible incentives to do something.  If it's fun and ineffective, so be it.  Enjoy yourself.  Just be realistic about it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The important thing to understand when choosing the best martial arts for self defence is there is no requirement for it to work.
> 
> If you buy a car and the wheels fall off you can return the car or sue the guy who sold it to you.
> 
> ...


And ideally, for me, at least some of the experienced folks are out there working it against people outside the school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> where I come from "Different Systems" get "Different Names"


This is where I draw a hazy distinction between “art/style” and “system”. I teach the same art as anyone who teaches NGA,  but I don’t use the same system. (I often use the phrase “my curriculum” as synonymous with “my system”.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> If the electricians guild has a 98% pass rate for the journeyman’s test after 2 years and the local technical college had a 75% pass rate after 2 years, I’d say the electricians guild is clearly a better training program.  Some of you are saying it’s not better because 2% of folks still fail.


Just being nit-picky, and I know this wasn’t your point, but it could also be the guild is using lower standards (the TC being the typical BJJ school).

I know, but it bugged me, so I had to bring it up.

(Edit: autocorrect changed the entire intent of my first phrase)


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## Steve (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Just being not-picky, and I know this wasn’t your point, but it could also be the guild is using lower standards (the TC being the typical BJJ school).
> 
> I know, but it bugged me, so I had to bring it up.


Sure, if that's the case.  But the entire point is that the standards are independent of the program.  And to be clear, if it comes to fighting skill, we can be as broad or as narrow as one likes.  Pick an objective measure and measure it.  Some systems will be consistently better than others.

Look at it this way.  The individual isn't the measure.  The individual is the product, in the same way if you're roasting coffee, the coffee is the product.  If I consistently roast coffee that is burnt tasting and lacks any of the character of the bean, my system is flawed.  If I can't reliably roast good tasting coffee, my system is flawed, even if I get lucky sometimes.  And if I can produce good coffee, time after time, my system is good, even if I screw up a new bean here and there.  I wouldn't blame the coffee beans for being good or bad.  It's my skill as a roaster that either brings the best out of them or not.  

So, just to bring this back around to the topic at hand, the best combo for street fighting is to train in a system or combination of systems that reliably produce people who can do whatever it is you want to be able to do yourself.

Or, like with the coffee analogy, you can fall for a starbucks marketing campaign and allow yourself to be convinced that burnt coffee is what you really wanted all along.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I would reference back to a form I started about "knowing what you teach." Awareness skills, and de-escalation skills are fantastic personal security skills to have, very much related to self-defense, but they are not martial arts skills. While you may have the good fortune of learning some of these skills in a dojo or gym, but they have nothing to do with the martial application of making that systems techniques work against a resisting attacker.
> 
> With that said, the better skilled you are at actually taking control of someone, or damaging someone if a fight happens, the better you can de-escalate from a position of advantage, not out of fear or nessesity.


I brought this up because self defense was mentioned. Which is no the same as fighting.  self defense is a much wider spectrum.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> This is where I draw a hazy distinction between “art/style” and “system”. I teach the same art as anyone who teaches NGA,  but I don’t use the same system. (I often use the phrase “my curriculum” as synonymous with “my system”.)


That to me is just the subject matter to be taught which may or may not include all that makes a system. A teacher may choose to focus more on kicking than punching.   When I taught Jow Ga I focused more on footwork than other teachers and other schools.   Which required me to create and use exercises that weren't being taught.  Jow Ga has always been like this as teachers often taught to their strength.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I brought this up because self defense was mentioned. Which is no the same as fighting.  self defense is a much wider spectrum.


I hear you, but I'm suggesting that self-defense IS fighting, as in an employment of counter violence, which is a martial arts skill.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I believe you would have a different perspective if you were the one who had to advertise and market a school to attract people who are seriously looking for self-defense.  You make the assumption that they don't know what to look for.  In my experience I have often found that my school was not the first school that they checked out, nor was it the first school they trained in.   They have requirements for what they expect of training and if your school doesn't meet those requirements then they will choose not to be a part of your school.
> 
> That's just the honest truth.  A lot of times the discussion in the threads make it seem like the people seeking martial arts don't know what they want.  Tell @Alan0354 that.  Based on the people who asked about Jow Ga and self-defense in the past, it wasn't their first time seeking out a martial arts school.  Same with the self defense class.  Many had taken other self defense classes so they had enough exposure to compare my school with past schools and classes they attended.  They weren't first timers who never took advantage of trial classes or invitations to come and watch classes.


I will argue that many don’t actually know what to look for, and make odd choices. I had one guy decide not to train with me because our beginning forms (first version of a technique someone learns) don’t include a strike when the person has been thrown. That was his entire issue. To him, forms that don’t conform to that standard are hopelessly flawed, regardless of the rest of the system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. The guy who couldn't perform well in one system changed systems and performed better.


If both teach a takedown and he is better at that takedown in the second system, it’s likely the second system was better for him (at least for that - maybe overall). Might be better for everyone, but we’d need consistent flow between them for this type of measurement to be meaningful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I brought this up because self defense was mentioned. Which is no the same as fighting.  self defense is a much wider spectrum.


That’s back to the question of definition. I normally use the term specifically refer to defending against a physical attack (not preventing or avoiding it - those fall into a larger umbrella category). So fighting (in that context) is what it’s about.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I will argue that many don’t actually know what to look for, and make odd choices. I had one guy decide not to train with me because our beginning forms (first version of a technique someone learns) don’t include a strike when the person has been thrown. That was his entire issue. To him, forms that don’t conform to that standard are hopelessly flawed, regardless of the rest of the system.


Only if they are completely new to visiting a martial arts schools.  If they shop around, try some classes, watch some classes, and ask some questions then they would have some information that could be used for comparison..  This is why I always encourage people to take trial classes, watch classes, and to ask questions.  If that's was the deciding factor for the person to not train at your school then you are better off without them as everything taught of that school would have been questioned.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I hear you, but I'm suggesting that self-defense IS fighting, as in an employment of counter violence, which is a martial arts skill.


If self defense is fighting, Then what is running away from someone who is attacking you.  Is that self-defense or does self-defense only exist when you are  fighting.   If self-defense exists without fighting then Self-defense and fighting are not the same thing.  Fighting is an component of self defense.  If you had a book about self defense, then fighting would be a chapter.   If the 2 were equal the you could change the title from self-defense to  fighting and it would read the same.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> You said people do martial arts for a variety of reasons, absolutely and it’s all good, my 11 year daughter started tkd 6 months ago, great for flexibility cause she was stiff as a board, great for fitness cause she’s lost weight, great as a social club making friends cause she was shy, great for building confidence cause standing up doing patterns in front of the class takes guts. Also sparring even though it’s soft touch gives an idea of how to fight.All these things are important in a street fight flexibility, fitness,confidence etc. But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are


To whom are you comparing your daughter?  That would be other 11 year-old girls with no more than 6 months training in some other martial art.  You are convinced, hands-down, that she would lose against them all?  That is an indictment of her school. 

The truth is, there are a lot of schools teaching to a low level of quality.  You will get no argument from me over that point.  But that is a problem with the school itself and not necessarily the method as a whole.  I have always understood that most schools teaching to the younger kids, especially those below age eight or so, are largely a daycare operation with a karate theme.  Often they play games designed to keep the kids physically moving and simply having fun.  But there is very little actual martial content happening in many cases.  This has become more clear to me as I have an eight year-old who will not let me teach him because I am his dad, so I have begun looking at the schools in my area to see if there is anyone I would be willing to allow to teach him.  Really, I just want him to be more active and interact with other kids more, make sure he doesn’t become too much of an introvert (I am an introvert myself and am perfectly fine with it, but it is important to make an effort to get out and interact now and again).  But I am seeing first-hand how low the bar is often set when teaching these young kids.  

At any rate, I don’t believe your daughter is the best example of what training is best for defense or fighting or whatever, because of her age and brief training time and the overall low bar that is typically set in schools that teach lots of kids.  And whatever example you might want to use, make sure you are comparing with an appropriate peer group.  If the nearest comparison to your daughter is a 16 year-old boy who has been training Muay Thai for a year, I would say definitively she will lose.  But that isn’t really a fair comparison.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If self defense is fighting, Then what is running away from someone who is attacking you.  Is that self-defense or does self-defense only exist when you are  fighting.   If self-defense exists without fighting then Self-defense and fighting are not the same thing.  Fighting is an component of self defense.  If you had a book about self defense, then fighting would be a chapter.   If the 2 were equal the you could change the title from self-defense to  fighting and it would read the same.


Self-defense does not exists without fighting. Or more specifically without applying some level of force yourself, against a threat. Consider the legal definition of self-defense, and the fact that this term is written into the law in many places.

Running is not self-defense, it may be self-preservation, avoidance, or escape and evasion. It is certainly a part of a well-rounded personal protection plan, but it is not self-defense. Self-defense is a martial activity.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 2, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I thought about that actually, though am biased. FMA definitely have a unique fighting style that blends well against boxing. My only concern is that a lot of the open handed stuff is done with the idea that you are trying to get to your weapon, and less time is spent on hands. So while it _could _be better, I'm not sure that in reality, average practitioner vs. average practitioner, if you limit yourself to just punches (which i assume is what OP means by hands only) it is.



Hi Monkey turned Wolf , 

I and others I know have trained hands from FMA as we are not always allowed or able to carry certain tools. 

So for a FMA that trained hands and a boxer that trained hands, I would still say it depends. 
Upon weight
Time in training 
Dedication of the student 
Their personal lives. 

Now let us assume Twins in everything from what they experienced to what they ate, with the one exception of Boxing versus Hands FMA. 
It could be 50/50 , yet with my bias and my experience practicing without gloves, slipping and trapping and checking would give the advantage to FMA. 

That and $10 bucks I could loan you would get you a large coffee from your place of choice.  
So it is my opinion. And my experience with Boxers.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hi Monkey turned Wolf ,
> 
> I and others I know have trained hands from FMA as we are not always allowed or able to carry certain tools.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, with my bias comment I meant bias towards fma. I switched over to FMA maybe 5-6 years ago. 

That said, with my experience in FMA (specifically in kali, I've seen a couple different places, but all my style), yes there are more tools with hands that we can use. And if we spent equal time training hands, or even close, I would give it to FMA. But we spend much less of our training time focusing on unarmed vs. unarmed then boxers do with punching, so pure training time on just that one aspect is why I give it to boxers. And some of our unarmed is also spent with standup grappling, which as I mentioned in an earlier comment, while that's "hands" I get the feeling OP wasn't considering it hands when he made his comment.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Self-defense does not exists without fighting. Or more specifically without applying some level of force yourself, against a threat. Consider the legal definition of self-defense, and the fact that this term is written into the law in many places.
> 
> Running is not self-defense, it may be self-preservation, avoidance, or escape and evasion. It is certainly a part of a well-rounded personal protection plan, but it is not self-defense. Self-defense is a martial activity.


I will look at the legal definition


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Self-defense does not exists without fighting. Or more specifically without applying some level of force yourself, against a threat. Consider the legal definition of self-defense, and the fact that this term is written into the law in many places.
> 
> Running is not self-defense, it may be self-preservation, avoidance, or escape and evasion. It is certainly a part of a well-rounded personal protection plan, but it is not self-defense. Self-defense is a martial activity.


I will use the legal definition of it which is how you are explaining it.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 2, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Just to clarify, with my bias comment I meant bias towards fma. I switched over to FMA maybe 5-6 years ago.
> 
> That said, with my experience in FMA (specifically in kali, I've seen a couple different places, but all my style), yes there are more tools with hands that we can use. And if we spent equal time training hands, or even close, I would give it to FMA. But we spend much less of our training time focusing on unarmed vs. unarmed then boxers do with punching, so pure training time on just that one aspect is why I give it to boxers. And some of our unarmed is also spent with standup grappling, which as I mentioned in an earlier comment, while that's "hands" I get the feeling OP wasn't considering it hands when he made his comment.



Yes the prevalent Kali system right now is much more into weapons and blades and find your opponents blades. 
I get that. 

I also would not make the same assumption about the grappling as that would mean no traps, no sticky hands, no striking the arms, which means Boxing only. 
And if that is the rule, then of course Boxing is going to win or be best in a boxing event / competition.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Where for example you could do a krav and even at 50 would clean up everyone in the room. The training is designed for you to win.
> 
> Where bjj. You might spend years getting manhandled by everyone.
> 
> ...


Well that video doesn’t resemble any training that I am familiar with.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well that video doesn’t resemble any training that I am familiar with.



Many Krav Maga schools these days are basically TKD schools n black outfits where the instructor went and spent the weekend to get certified as a Krav Maga instructor. There are good Krav maga schools, there just hard to find as compared to the ones that call themselves Krav Maga that really aren't.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Satisfaction does not always equal effectiveness.


I guess the proof is in the pudding. I’m effective, but I’m never satisfied.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well that video doesn’t resemble any training that I am familiar with.



It doesn’t have to. It was to demonstrate a concept. Not really denial style.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If both teach a takedown and he is better at that takedown in the second system, it’s likely the second system was better for him (at least for that - maybe overall). Might be better for everyone, but we’d need consistent flow between them for this type of measurement to be meaningful.



I can almost guarantee he is just in a better learning environment.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It doesn’t have to. It was to demonstrate a concept. Not really denial style.


I don’t know much about Krav but I dont think I would train that school based on that video.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Only if they are completely new to visiting a martial arts schools.  If they shop around, try some classes, watch some classes, and ask some questions then they would have some information that could be used for comparison..  This is why I always encourage people to take trial classes, watch classes, and to ask questions.  If that's was the deciding factor for the person to not train at your school then you are better off without them as everything taught of that school would have been questioned.


The person in question had experience (not sure how much) in a related art, so wasn't completely new.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I can almost guarantee he is just in a better learning environment.


That could well be. And in a lot of cases could be. I was just pointing out that other factors can make that difference, too. If someone just doesn't mesh well with the instructor (or, specifically, with that instructor's teaching style) they won't learn as well as they would at an otherwise equally good place with an instructor more suited to them.

Same goes for interest level. What people are interested in matters for learning.

Of course, I'm not saying a crappy system with a well-suited teacher works better than a really good system with a not-so-well-suited instructor. It's just a question of how several factors can all make a difference, so we can't look at an individual case like that with much confidence.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> we can't look at an individual case like that with much confidence.


Many years ago in Taiwan, a guy tried to find a MA tecaher and failed. He found a coconut, drilled 2 holes, tied with ropes on 2 trees. He then punched that swinging coconut between 2 tree for one year. A year later, he competed in a local MA tournament and won the first place. Notbody could escape from his head hunting.

A SC brother of mine, he forced his son to only allow to use hip throw for 2 years on the mat. 2 years later, his son won the first place in Judo tournament.

Can these examples be reproduced? I believe these examples can be reproduced.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago in Taiwan, a guy tried to find a MA tecaher and failed. He found a coconut, drilled 2 holes, tied with ropes on 2 trees. He then punched that swinging coconut between 2 tree for one year. A year later, he competed in a local MA tournament and won the first place. Notbody could escape from his head hunting.
> 
> A SC brother of mine, he forced his son to only allow to use hip throw for 2 years on the mat. 2 years later, his son won the first place in Judo tournament.
> 
> Can these examples be reproduced? I believe these examples can be reproduced.


You believe they can. But you don't know. And to the point of the discussion at hand, are they evidence that either of these methods are likely to be better than other approaches for most people? We have no evidence to suggest either is.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That could well be. And in a lot of cases could be. I was just pointing out that other factors can make that difference, too. If someone just doesn't mesh well with the instructor (or, specifically, with that instructor's teaching style) they won't learn as well as they would at an otherwise equally good place with an instructor more suited to them.
> 
> Same goes for interest level. What people are interested in matters for learning.
> 
> Of course, I'm not saying a crappy system with a well-suited teacher works better than a really good system with a not-so-well-suited instructor. It's just a question of how several factors can all make a difference, so we can't look at an individual case like that with much confidence.


Yes there will be other factors.

The issue is the individual comes up when we are looking at systems which is kind of dishonest.

So say we pick 3 schools and two of those are consistently producing good whatever and the third one isnt.

But we look at those schools and some students are just doing better than others.

It is not really the deal breaker that posters here seem to think it is. You don't have to be like, I have no idea what school is better because of this small variance in achievement. I had just better choose randomly and hope.

If the topic was different then the individual would have more weight.

But specifically for a discussion on the best style for self defence. The most efficiently effective school would have to be a top criteria in that choice.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> To whom are you comparing your daughter?  That would be other 11 year-old girls with no more than 6 months training in some other martial art.  You are convinced, hands-down, that she would lose against them all?  That is an indictment of her school.
> 
> The truth is, there are a lot of schools teaching to a low level of quality.  You will get no argument from me over that point.  But that is a problem with the school itself and not necessarily the method as a whole.  I have always understood that most schools teaching to the younger kids, especially those below age eight or so, are largely a daycare operation with a karate theme.  Often they play games designed to keep the kids physically moving and simply having fun.  But there is very little actual martial content happening in many cases.  This has become more clear to me as I have an eight year-old who will not let me teach him because I am his dad, so I have begun looking at the schools in my area to see if there is anyone I would be willing to allow to teach him.  Really, I just want him to be more active and interact with other kids more, make sure he doesn’t become too much of an introvert (I am an introvert myself and am perfectly fine with it, but it is important to make an effort to get out and interact now and again).  But I am seeing first-hand how low the bar is often set when teaching these young kids.
> 
> At any rate, I don’t believe your daughter is the best example of what training is best for defense or fighting or whatever, because of her age and brief training time and the overall low bar that is typically set in schools that teach lots of kids.  And whatever example you might want to use, make sure you are comparing with an appropriate peer group.  If the nearest comparison to your daughter is a 16 year-old boy who has been training Muay Thai for a year, I would say definitively she will lose.  But that isn’t really a fair comparison.


It is a complex issue with lots of factors to take into consideration. Could my daughter beat a judoka of similar age sex and experience, yes without a doubt. Because striking arts are easier to learn than judo. It’s takes longer to master how to throw someone, my son and daughter both started judo at 4 and didn’t throw anyone for years. But when she is a black belt will she use tkd in a street fight or judo. And if she only had tkd would she beat a judoka or a mauy Thai, I really don’t think so because of of the weaknesses in the style of tkd, for example compared to a boxer their guard is very poor, most of their kicks are high risk low reward, their punches are poor and. Things like a jumping punch are just silly to try in a street fight, mauy Thai on the other hand has leg kicks a good gaurd and solid punches, judo if they can close the distance on a tkd then fights over, same with bjj wrestling etc. Tkd does have a lot going for it and as I said in my very first post if you take the power and speed of it’s kicks and aim for the legs with shoes on then that extra reach will be an advantage. I tried it in a real fight and it works, ended up losing the fight cause the guy closed the distance but after that we became friends and he complained many times over the following drinking session that his legs were killing him. But I still lost. Tkd is just not as good a style against other styles, not all are equal even though it does have things to offer


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## Flying Crane (Sep 3, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> It is a complex issue with lots of factors to take into consideration. Could my daughter beat a judoka of similar age sex and experience, yes without a doubt. Because striking arts are easier to learn than judo. It’s takes longer to master how to throw someone, my son and daughter both started judo at 4 and didn’t throw anyone for years. But when she is a black belt will she use tkd in a street fight or judo. And if she only had tkd would she beat a judoka or a mauy Thai, I really don’t think so because of of the weaknesses in the style of tkd, for example compared to a boxer their guard is very poor, most of their kicks are high risk low reward, their punches are poor and. Things like a jumping punch are just silly to try in a street fight, mauy Thai on the other hand has leg kicks a good gaurd and solid punches, judo if they can close the distance on a tkd then fights over, same with bjj wrestling etc. Tkd does have a lot going for it and as I said in my very first post if you take the power and speed of it’s kicks and aim for the legs with shoes on then that extra reach will be an advantage. I tried it in a real fight and it works, ended up losing the fight cause the guy closed the distance but after that we became friends and he complained many times over the following drinking session that his legs were killing him. But I still lost. Tkd is just not as good a style against other styles, not all are equal even though it does have things to offer


I agree that the way some TKD schools approach their training leaves some things to be desired if self defensive abilities are what is important to you.  Those schools that focus on Olympic rules sparring to the exclusion of all else would be on the top of that list but I wouldn’t automatically rule them out either.  But that is a subset of TKD and not representative of all TKD.  When I was in college and had my own prejudices against TKD I had a chance to spar with an exchange student from Mexico who was a TDK guy and was hoping to get onto the Mexican Olympic team.  I was a kenpo guy at the time.  I expected to be unimpressed with him.  The truth of the matter was that he wiped the floor with me.  He was clean and fast and precise and was hitting me with textbook techniques.  Opened my eyes for me.  

It is certainly possible to get solid combative/self-defense training in TKD.  Your daughter might not be in the right school to get it.  

Again, this is an issue with the particular school, not the system itself.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree that the way some TKD schools approach their training leaves some things to be desired if self defensive abilities are what is important to you.  Those schools that focus on Olympic rules sparring to the exclusion of all else would be on the top of that list but I wouldn’t automatically rule them out either.  But that is a subset of TKD and not representative of all TKD.  When I was in college and had my own prejudices against TKD I had a chance to spar with an exchange student from Mexico who was a TDK guy and was hoping to get onto the Mexican Olympic team.  I was a kenpo guy at the time.  I expected to be unimpressed with him.  The truth of the matter was that he wiped the floor with me.  He was clean and fast and precise and was hitting me with textbook techniques.  Opened my eyes for me.
> 
> It is certainly possible to get solid combative/self-defense training in TKD.  Your daughter might not be in the right school to get it.
> 
> Again, this is an issue with the particular school, not the system itself.


Yeah I can agree with a lot of what you say, training intensity and priority counts for a lot, I did it’s in a club that was full of guys who worked as bouncers, the coach was was the head bouncer, emotional a lot of focus on patterns every night it was hard excirise, followed by hitting pads and 20 mins sparring. We would go against lots of different styles like karate and lau gar Kung fu and always do well, ended up being the most successful club in the area for medals if done right it can be effective, also saw a lot of ytube videos of tkd doing well against all striking styles. Perhaps the bad rep it gets is that so many clubs are focusing on making it family friendly for the cash. Again nothing wrong with that cause that offers kids lots of benefits and not everyone wants hardcore training, even against an untrained aggressor it can be good, but in a street fight against a big guy who knows how to fight, even a street fighter, I hate hate to sound stubborn but I would rather have boxing or judo


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## Flying Crane (Sep 3, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Yeah I can agree with a lot of what you say, training intensity and priority counts for a lot, I did it’s in a club that was full of guys who worked as bouncers, the coach was was the head bouncer, emotional a lot of focus on patterns every night it was hard excirise, followed by hitting pads and 20 mins sparring. We would go against lots of different styles like karate and lau gar Kung fu and always do well, ended up being the most successful club in the area for medals if done right it can be effective, also saw a lot of ytube videos of tkd doing well against all striking styles. Perhaps the bad rep it gets is that so many clubs are focusing on making it family friendly for the cash. Again nothing wrong with that cause that offers kids lots of benefits and not everyone wants hardcore training, even against an untrained aggressor it can be good, but in a street fight against a big guy who knows how to fight, even a street fighter, I hate hate to sound stubborn but I would rather have boxing or judo


Well that is fair enough.  We all have our interests and make our own choices about what is the right thing for ourselves.  No argument there.   Boxing or judo may simply be a better match for you, you relate to it better and the training makes sense to you.  That is a personal thing and everyone needs to figure out what is the best choice for themselves, based on their interests and priorities and goals.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well that is fair enough.  We all have our interests and make our own choices about what is the right thing for ourselves.  No argument there.   Boxing or judo may simply be a better match for you, you relate to it better and the training makes sense to you.  That is a personal thing and everyone needs to figure out what is the best choice for themselves, based on their interests and priorities and goals.


Regards


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## Buka (Sep 3, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> You said people do martial arts for a variety of reasons, absolutely and it’s all good, my 11 year daughter started tkd 6 months ago, great for flexibility cause she was stiff as a board, great for fitness cause she’s lost weight, great as a social club making friends cause she was shy, great for building confidence cause standing up doing patterns in front of the class takes guts. Also sparring even though it’s soft touch gives an idea of how to fight.All these things are important in a street fight flexibility, fitness,confidence etc. But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are


So glad I read this post. It reminded me of what I really love about Martial Arts.

And I'm psyched for your daughter.


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## gerardfoy50 (Sep 4, 2022)

Buka said:


> So glad I read this post. It reminded me of what I really love about Martial Arts.
> 
> And I'm psyched for your daughter.


Many thanks


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## wolfeyes2323 (Sep 7, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Combine these Tkd boxing and judo and you can pretty much deal with anything, tkd kicks can also be used against legs and while the foot is more fragile than the shin if your wearing shoes then it’s ok and using the foot gives longer reach, boxing speaks for itself best hand technique of any style. Up close judo is best, perhaps in a hot topless climate not so good but anyone wearing clothes especially jumpers or coats are going flying and the groundwork for judo is often underrated should your opponent still be functioning after all that,


Street fighting and self defense  are not the same a fighting in a ring or against a single opponent ,   IMO it can not be learned by practicing Sports,  or approaching the situation  as a contestant .   The best Combo  is understanding your self, and your opponent ,  in most cases  the confrontation is won or lost before it begins.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2022)

Since this came back up, I'll add my opinion.  The best combination for self defense is to make good life choices, get some exercise, minimize the amount of time you spend engaging in high risk behaviors, don't hang around erratic people, and try to be a nice person.  If you do these things, the chances you'll need fighting skills are approaching zero.

If you need to fight, though, I think your best bet is to train in a style where you get to fight a lot.  MMA is probably the most complete, but it's better to be good at something than to think you're good at everything and find out you're good at nothing.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Since this came back up, I'll add my opinion.  The best combination for self defense is to make good life choices, get some exercise, minimize the amount of time you spend engaging in high risk behaviors, don't hang around erratic people, and try to be a nice person.  If you do these things, the chances you'll need fighting skills are approaching zero.
> 
> If you need to fight, though, I think your best bet is to train in a style where you get to fight a lot.  MMA is probably the most complete, but it's better to be good at something than to think you're good at everything and find out you're good at nothing.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 15, 2022)

Best is the jab; ring, cage, streets, prison, thunderdome, etc.

Anything after that, should be instinctive.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That was the strategy I used last time I sparred against a boxer too. When I sparred, I only looked at my opponent's leading leg knee. If his leading leg knee is bending (has more weight on), I either sweep that leg, or step on that knee.



Why though? That's mean a heck to try to destroy his knees; even if it's hard sparring.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Why though? That's mean a heck to try to destroy his knees; even if it's hard sparring.


Can't move without the legs.   Freeze the leg or take it away and your opponent won't be escape or attack.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Can't move without the legs.   Freeze the leg or take it away and your opponent won't be escape or attack.


 
I'm not talking about it working or not or how it works; it just sounded like he wanted to destroy the Boxer's knee. I probably read that wrong b/c he doesn't seem to be that kinda person. 

But this tech usually annoys TKD's and other heavy kickers more than punchers.  I use this often on TKD's that are longer w/good footwork & want to keep distance away from my hands.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Why though? That's mean a heck to try to destroy his knees; even if it's hard sparring.


Both knee step and foot sweep are important part of the CMA training.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm not talking about it working or not or how it works; it just sounded like he wanted to destroy the Boxer's knee. I probably read that wrong b/c he doesn't seem to be that kinda person.
> 
> But this tech usually annoys TKD's and other heavy kickers more than punchers.  I use this often on TKD's that are longer w/good footwork & want to keep distance away from my hands.


I thought he was talking about how he was placing his knee on his opponent.  I may have missed a post. Sometimes I don't see the post right away for some reason.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Both knee step and foot sweep are important part of the CMA training.



but were you out to send them straight to the hospital for emergency knee surgery with hard stomps from just sparring?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> but were you out to send them straight to the hospital for emergency knee surgery with hard stomps from just sparring?


Sparring is the path. Combat is the goal. If someone tries to hurt your family member, you will love to send that person to hospital.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sparring is the path. Combat is the goal. If someone tries to hurt your family member, you will love to send that person to hospital.



so your answer is a riddle?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> so your answer is a riddle?


I don't dodge question. My answer is direct.

You (general YOU) train

- Guandao so you can cut your opponent's head off.
- Spear so you can poke a hole through your opponent's chest.
- knee stepping so you can destroy your opponent's knee joint.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't dodge question. My answer is direct.
> 
> You (general YOU) train
> 
> ...




would you step the knee joint hard (80-100% power) to destroy your sparring partner's knee joint during hard sparring?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm not talking about it working or not or how it works; it just sounded like he wanted to destroy the Boxer's knee. I probably read that wrong b/c he doesn't seem to be that kinda person.
> 
> But this tech usually annoys TKD's and other heavy kickers more than punchers.  I use this often on TKD's that are longer w/good footwork & want to keep distance away from my hands.





jayoliver00 said:


> would you step the knee joint hard (80-100% power) to destroy your sparring partner's knee joint during hard sparring?


I might if he thought that cranking my neck and not respecting the tap was ok.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> would you step the knee joint hard (80-100% power) to destroy your sparring partner's knee joint during hard sparring?


No! In sparring, you try to protect your sparring partner as much as you can. Otherwise you won't have sparring partner next day.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 16, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I might if he thought that cranking my neck and not respecting the tap was ok.



He won't step onto the striking side vs. you though (unless he's also well trained there); most BJJ'ers don't train striking & vice versa for the strikers.

There are certain B-holes on the BJJ mat that I stay away from also; w/many that can beat me but will do it nicely b/c I was gentle with them when they take my MT class. 

IMO, if you go back to that gym, he wouldn't do that again. I think it was just the common, one time showing of one's P size & now that you're impressed, he's going to go normal. If he doesn't, then make a big stink about it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

gerardfoy50 said:


> Up close judo is best, perhaps in a hot topless climate not so good but anyone wearing clothes especially jumpers or coats are going flying and the groundwork for judo is often underrated should your opponent still be functioning after all that,



This is laughable. Wrestling is the best standup grappling, and BJJ is the best in terms of ground fighting. Not to knock Judo, but it's throws are very complex, which can lead to failure which is something you don't want in a SD situation. Meanwhile,  Wrestling takedowns are far more simple and intuitive, and Bjj works very well with wrestling to finish your opposition once they're on the ground. Some Bjj methods (like leglocks) aren't even taught in Judo. 

There's a reason wrestling and Bjj (not Judo) make up the core of MMA grappling.


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## The Gray (Hair) Man (Oct 28, 2022)

By favorite combo for street defense:


Awareness
Evasion


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