# Is it enough to Remember Kata? Or do you need to Know them?



## Gwaredydd (Jun 2, 2015)

Have you ever had the feeling of not quite remembering a Kata until you are actually performing it?
Is this why we can produce our best Kata when we aren't thinking about it?  For example when we are tired?  Does this show that you really know it when you can perform your Kata under stress?  Is this where the true Bunkai for the Kata really lies?  Can we reveal our best Karate from our Kata when it really counts?  I believe we can have a positive answer to all these questions as we mature as karateka, as our true Budo is born.  I know it sounds romantic, but is it a reality for you?  What have others experienced in the way their Kata is delivered from the subconscious when it matters the most?  Is knowing more important than remembering?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2015)

Not a karate guy myself, I'm from a kung fu lineage.  But forms has nothing to do with performing, for me.  It's not about performing it while under stress, or otherwise.  It's simply a training tool.  If nobody else ever sees it, that's ok.  If it's not aesthetically pleasing, that's ok too.  If I don't do a move here or there, that is also ok.  It's not sacred.  It's a tool.  Nothing more.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2015)

Form can be done in 3 different ways:

1. combat - punch out fast, pull back fast,
2. health - punch out slow, pull back fast,
3. performance - punch out fast, post there, pull back fast.

To understand the "vocabulary" and "grammar" is more important than to remember the "sentence".


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2015)

Knowing how to 'perform' kata is never enough, it's not even the point of kata. The point of kata is the Bunkai, that's what you delve into, explore and learn.


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## K-man (Jun 3, 2015)

Gwaredydd said:


> Have you ever had the feeling of not quite remembering a Kata until you are actually performing it?
> Is this why we can produce our best Kata when we aren't thinking about it?  For example when we are tired?  Does this show that you really know it when you can perform your Kata under stress?  Is this where the true Bunkai for the Kata really lies?  Can we reveal our best Karate from our Kata when it really counts?  I believe we can have a positive answer to all these questions as we mature as karateka, as our true Budo is born.  I know it sounds romantic, but is it a reality for you?  What have others experienced in the way their Kata is delivered from the subconscious when it matters the most?  Is knowing more important than remembering?


Perhaps have a look at some of the threads where we have been discussing bunkai. 

Performing kata has nothing to do with fighting and really has nothing to do with making you a better karateka. It is what you do with your kata in terms of applying what is in the kata that does that.


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2015)

A nicely performed kata is just that, a nicely performed kata pleasant to watch, the real purpose though is missed if that's all you do with kata.
There aren't three different ways to 'do' kata, that's to misunderstand the point and purpose, going fast or slow doesn't actually do anything, just makes it look faster or slower. The way it is delivered doesn't mean anything though I'd hope to see techniques performed properly no open fist punches for example or sloppy stances, but the practice of Bunkai is something that comes from the kata but isn't the performance of kata.


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## Danny T (Jun 3, 2015)

Kata/Forms = Catalog of movements, positions, & postures.
Bunkai - (The Study of Kata/Forms) = Research and analysis of the movements, positions, postures...etc and how to apply them vs a non compliant opponent. (often first performed vs a compliant partner) & (often there are drills performed as a tool for research)

Sadly many never get past learning the Katas/Forms. They never study or analyze them, they never gain an understanding nor an ability to truly function or it is at a low level of function. So many can perform numerous katas/forms but don't know what they are doing.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 3, 2015)

sadly if one watches people in competition and the judging of them you will see most are graded on the way they preform not on knowledge.  Let someone do a beautiful and long form and watch the score then let some old man who has been in the arts 40, 50 or 60 years go up and do the most basic form with precision and the look of knowing what each move he makes is about and watch his score.
 Personalty I think a person should know what his kata is about and know what can be done with it, If a person can do that they most likely can preform the form also


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## jks9199 (Jun 3, 2015)

Let me turn this around with a question:

What is the purpose of learning a kata or form?


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## Gwaredydd (Jun 3, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Let me turn this around with a question:
> 
> What is the purpose of learning a kata or form?



To learn Kata is to learn how your style of martial art reacts to others and their attacks.  Each Kata can be read in a different way. It depends on how the individual perceives it.  Each Kata has scope for multiple options for each attack and more for each defence. The speed, the focus, the breath, the ki and all the style therein is where the karatedo is.  The purpose of learning kata in my view is to experience your given style of karate in a way others and your self can see; but what is more important is how it feels to perform.  Some say that you cannot transcend the competence of the way you are taught; but I believe that each master can show the way to go forward but only the individual can learn to apply what they have been taught and achieve greater understanding than the master eventually.  For me there is no kata without its application and there is no karate without kata.


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## jks9199 (Jun 3, 2015)

Gwaredydd said:


> To learn Kata is to learn how your style of martial art reacts to others and their attacks.  Each Kata can be read in a different way. It depends on how the individual perceives it.  Each Kata has scope for multiple options for each attack and more for each defence. The speed, the focus, the breath, the ki and all the style therein is where the karatedo is.  The purpose of learning kata in my view is to experience your given style of karate in a way others and your self can see; but what is more important is how it feels to perform.  Some say that you cannot transcend the competence of the way you are taught; but I believe that each master can show the way to go forward but only the individual can learn to apply what they have been taught and achieve greater understanding than the master eventually.  For me there is no kata without its application and there is no karate without kata.


So -- with that purpose in mind -- should you know or simply remember a kata?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 3, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Let me turn this around with a question:
> 
> What is the purpose of learning a kata or form?



The problem I have with this question and many of the posts is that there is an assumption that all kata serve the same function. That is not true when we look at kata across styles or even within a single style.  
Not all kata are ment to have a bunkai. Not all kata are imaginary self defense scenarios. But this is the assumption most people have.  I find many people looking for bunkai applications and end up having to make excuses and justifications to make up for the lack of coherent application in their bunkai explanation. In many cases the action was not intended to have a bunkai but is there for other reasons.


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## ShotoNoob (Jun 3, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Not a karate guy myself, I'm from a kung fu lineage.  But forms has nothing to do with performing, for me.  It's not about performing it while under stress, or otherwise.  It's simply a training tool.  If nobody else ever sees it, that's ok.  If it's not aesthetically pleasing, that's ok too.  If I don't do a move here or there, that is also ok.  It's not sacred.  It's a tool.  Nothing more.


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Gichin Funakoshi would both be proud & abhorred at your forms practice....  I'm just a bit abhorred....


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## ShotoNoob (Jun 3, 2015)

Couldn't agree more with your full post.
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hoshin1600 said:


> ...Not all kata are ment to have a bunkai. Not all kata are imaginary self defense scenarios. But this is the assumption most people have.


Question, so paraphrase when the kata has no bunkai, has no imaginary self defense scenario;  What's kata for, what's it doing?
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By your own expertise & experience, of course.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 3, 2015)

There are CMA forms that are pure theatrical preformances. I feel bad for the poor soul who now 4 generations removed from knowing that are trying to find bunkai.
There are kata designed to teach foundational concepts and bio machanical structure. Some kata are designed to teach the "feel" of the system like learning the differences between jazz, blues and funk music.  Kata is also ment to teach the systems principals of movement. In this case it may seem or feel like there could be a scenario type bunkai but the creators intention was to look at movement in a general sense not a specific application of the action.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2015)

If

- I know 50 forms and you only know 3, who is going to keep his students longer?
- I'm calling 1,2,3, ... when my students are doing the form and you are sparring/wrestling with your students, who is going to have easy time of teaching?

Why do you need to learn form if your "partner training" is already the form and can give you everything that you need to train?


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## Tez3 (Jun 4, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Gichin Funakoshi would both be proud & abhorred at your forms practice....  I'm just a bit abhorred....




I don't think he would as he would not be concerned with CMA forms, he would only focus on the way karateka are doing kata. The OP is talking about kata in the karate section.
KFW you are showing CMA videos which really don't have a lot of relevance to a discussion on karate kata. You are also digressing from the OPs question. what you are doing is taking it in a style v style direction.


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> The problem I have with this question and many of the posts is that there is an assumption that all kata serve the same function. That is not true when we look at kata across styles or even within a single style.
> Not all kata are ment to have a bunkai. Not all kata are imaginary self defense scenarios. But this is the assumption most people have.  I find many people looking for bunkai applications and end up having to make excuses and justifications to make up for the lack of coherent application in their bunkai explanation. In many cases the action was not intended to have a bunkai but is there for other reasons.


No assumption was made;  the answer to that question leads to the answer to the OP's question. For some purposes,  simply remembering the sequences may need perfectly adequate. But for other purposes,  you really have to know the form,  and understand the principles within it.   It's all in what your purpose in learning the form is, and certainly ithe helps to understand the purpose of the form, as well.  As others have noted, some forms have different purposes, and if you try to read too much into them,  you can easily lead yourself astray.


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## Buka (Jun 4, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Not a karate guy myself, I'm from a kung fu lineage.  But forms has nothing to do with performing, for me.  It's not about performing it while under stress, or otherwise.  It's simply a training tool.  If nobody else ever sees it, that's ok.  If it's not aesthetically pleasing, that's ok too.  If I don't do a move here or there, that is also ok.  It's not sacred.  It's a tool.  Nothing more.





ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Gichin Funakoshi would both be proud & abhorred at your forms practice....  I'm just a bit abhorred....



I, on the other hand, am not the least bit abhorred. I like it. 

As most of you know, I'm not a Kata man. But you can't spend a lifetime in Martial Arts without gaining some experience and knowledge of forms. I could fake doing a form. (quite nicely, thank you) You guys would all know it was bogus, but a Karate guy with five years or so under his belt would probably think it was the cat's pajamas, he'd just think it was different because I am of a different style. My point is - you can remember the movements, but that don't mean squat about actually knowing anything what-so-ever about that particular Kata.


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## ShotoNoob (Jun 4, 2015)

Buka said:


> I, on the other hand, am not the least bit abhorred. I like it.
> 
> As most of you know, I'm not a Kata man. But you can't spend a lifetime in Martial Arts without gaining some experience and knowledge of forms. I could fake doing a form. (quite nicely, thank you) You guys would all know it was bogus, but a Karate guy with five years or so under his belt would probably think it was the cat's pajamas, he'd just think it was different because I am of a different style.


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Of course, most of the kata performances at my school or  YT fall into this category.  People are doing something that looks good, repeats the physical form... yet is quite hollow, or at least suffering from some major external or internal flaws....





Buka said:


> My point is - you can remember the movements, but that don't mean squat about actually knowing anything what-so-ever about that particular Kata.


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The only purpose remembering the moves in a kata serves is that this is the FIRST STEP, in learning the kata.
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The serious karate kata practitioner wants to end up where you are going (in terms of SD functionality).
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Let me repeat, that under the traditional karate model, kata is necessary & required.  HOWEVER, If  the traditional karate model is trained true to principles, then one only needs kihon to become a good fighter, SD etc.
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The latter is a too theoretical for most, so the traditional karate model also affords kumite (fighting) component, with several types of kumite exercises.
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So for argument sake, I could agree that the kihon (basics) + fighting drills (kumite) can produce very, very good level of traditional martial art skill.  _*Kata is recommended for the highest level of foundation skill: Kata is NOT necessary.*_  That's my opinion...


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## clautz (Jun 6, 2015)

Gwaredydd said:


> Have you ever had the feeling of not quite remembering a Kata until you are actually performing it?
> Is this why we can produce our best Kata when we aren't thinking about it?  For example when we are tired?  Does this show that you really know it when you can perform your Kata under stress?  Is this where the true Bunkai for the Kata really lies?  Can we reveal our best Karate from our Kata when it really counts?  I believe we can have a positive answer to all these questions as we mature as karateka, as our true Budo is born.  I know it sounds romantic, but is it a reality for you?  What have others experienced in the way their Kata is delivered from the subconscious when it matters the most?  Is knowing more important than remembering?


Please go to wiki and lookup "mushin" - that is where you should be eventually with your kata (Mind with No Mind).  A friend of mine described it "as a psychodelic zen like experience."


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 3, 2016)

well you have to know your kata step by step before you can remember it kata is not easy its hard and it take practice you have to know your stances strikes kick or finger strike


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2016)

Which approach is better?

1. Learn the form first and understand the application later.
2. Understand the application first and learn the form later?

It depends on the age that you start your MA training. If you start at age

- 5, it may be better to take the 1st approach.
- 20, it may be better to take the 2nd approach.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which approach is better?
> 
> 1. Learn the form first and understand the application later.
> 2. Understand the application first and learn the form later?
> ...



Why is it necessary to do one or the either, you can quite easily do both together.
Learning martial arts when you are under five years old is frankly ridiculous, far, far too young.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Why is it necessary to do one or the either, you can quite easily do both together.
> Learning martial arts when you are under five years old is frankly ridiculous, far, far too young.


I disagree, a Little Dragons class can be quite non-violent, but very athletic and fun. And, it is never too early to teach people how to move.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> The problem I have with this question and many of the posts is that there is an assumption that all kata serve the same function. That is not true when we look at kata across styles or even within a single style.
> Not all kata are ment to have a bunkai. Not all kata are imaginary self defense scenarios. But this is the assumption most people have.  I find many people looking for bunkai applications and end up having to make excuses and justifications to make up for the lack of coherent application in their bunkai explanation. In many cases the action was not intended to have a bunkai but is there for other reasons.


Even within an art, some forms will have deeper teaching (not philosophical, just principles to be explored), while others will only have what's on the surface. Some may be esoteric - just ways to explore specific principles of manipulating the interaction of two bodies - while others will be directly applicable to a specific self-defense scenario.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Why is it necessary to do one or the either, you can quite easily do both together.
> Learning martial arts when you are under five years old is frankly ridiculous, far, far too young.


If the idea is to teach fighting, then yes, it's too young. As an alternative to other forms of physical education, I see no problem with a curriculum built specifically to help develop young muscles and coordination. Practicing the movements early can also give those kids a head start on learning the full art (or a similar one) later.

EDIT: Just please, PLEASE, don't make me teach them.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2016)

I've worked with children for a very long time, by all means teach children to move though they don't actually need it, just allow them to do it themselves, don't hinder them. Under five is far too young for any organised sport or activity.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 4, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I've worked with children for a very long time, by all means teach children to move though they don't actually need it, just allow them to do it themselves, don't hinder them. Under five is far too young for any organised sport or activity.


Nobody can accuse a little dragons class as being organized.


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 6, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which approach is better?
> 
> 1. Learn the form first and understand the application later.
> 2. Understand the application first and learn the form later?
> ...



I personally believe that you should learn the basic application of the techniques in a form while you learn the movements because if you know what a particular move is supposed to do in combat you will better remember it during the form. This is especially important in weapons forms (especially sword forms) where your strikes are designed to target very specific parts of the body like the neck, the thigh, the hip, etc. By learning which part of the body you are aiming for, you can practice your accuracy by visualising the opponent in front of you, as opposed to just striking in the general direction randomly. That said, I believe that a lot of forms have a deeper meaning and overall application that can only be learned and understood once you have learned the movements and basic applications. For example, in the first open-hand form I learned, called "San Zhan", first I learned what the movements were supposed to do in a fight, then once I had learned the movements, my instructor told me about the importance of the breathing and a whole new level of understanding for the form came to me. Until that point I didn't realise the true intent of the form and why we practice it.


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## JP3 (Aug 6, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Kata/Forms = Catalog of movements, positions, & postures.
> Bunkai - (The Study of Kata/Forms) = Research and analysis of the movements, positions, postures...etc and how to apply them vs a non compliant opponent. (often first performed vs a compliant partner) & (often there are drills performed as a tool for research)
> 
> Sadly many never get past learning the Katas/Forms. They never study or analyze them, they never gain an understanding nor an ability to truly function or it is at a low level of function. So many can perform numerous katas/forms but don't know what they are doing.


.

Yes.... just rote memory without understanding.

Learning a movement placed in apattern of such movements helps you to learn all the movements and positions into which the movements propel you. But... why!  That's the thinking about why you moved in a why, the why of the position, good in this way, bad in that way, etc. Strong in this direction, weak in that direction. Closed to attacks this way, open from that, etc. Perform. Consider Analyze. Rinse, lather repeat.

Come back to a form after putting it aside for 10 years, and see if it doesn't speak to you with new info.


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> If the idea is to teach fighting, then yes, it's too young. As an alternative to other forms of physical education, I see no problem with a curriculum built specifically to help develop young muscles and coordination. Practicing the movements early can also give those kids a head start on learning the full art (or a similar one) later.
> 
> EDIT: Just please, PLEASE, don't make me teach them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2016)

JP3 said:


> .
> 
> Yes.... just rote memory without understanding.
> 
> ...


I did talk with an instructor in one style (I've forgotten which, perhaps a form of Silat) where they had some forms that didn't have any specific application. When teaching, the instructor would sometimes say, "Now use the three-step sequence from the middle of form X" to give students a quick reference to the sequence of foot movements. Apparently, there was no separate purpose to these particular forms, except to provide a shorthand for learning new sequences.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


>


That's better focus and intent than I've seen from a lot of adults.

Still, please don't make me teach the kids.


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## CDR_Glock (Nov 12, 2016)

As a student and instructor, I find it important to know the sequence of steps, but it is as important to understand why and how we move to execute it.  To me, it also uncovers poor form or shows me how well a person knows how to practice fundamentals of basic or advanced techniques.   The exercise shows how to properly maintain balance, flow, control, power and speed while maintaining a clear mind, ability to concentrate, as well as be aware of what is happening around him or her.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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