# Has Shotokan Karate helped you in self-defense before?



## Deleted member 48484 (Apr 19, 2021)

Has Shotokan Karate helped you in self-defense before?

if yes, what did the scenario look like ?


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## letsplaygames (Apr 20, 2021)

Only true altercation i had ... I got on my bicycle and gassed my assailant, the exited stage left.   

I.) If your situational awareness is where it should be... 99% of the time one should not have self defense situation.  

II.)  Most don’t recognized a true self defense situation till its too late (i.e when your life is REALLY in danger) 

One would think with the popularity of MMA  that would have changed... it appears (at least from my perspective) the complete opposite has taken place.

The “High School Hallway scenario”  where the combatants know each other, and there is a crowd of bystanders to witness it and break it up .... is “unfortunately” what many train for... what many think a self defense scenario is. They just envision scenario in different locations, parking lot, mall etc... 

They Train an MA to save face... 

The reality (again taken from my perspective...  and my perspective only) is totally different than what most believe and are taught. 

Take my encounter as an example.  There was 3 ... with one being the main  predator.  2 stood back, waited...  I got on the bicycle (my terminology for evasive footwork) expecting the 2 to jump me from behind, or plow in if I got the better of the main predator.   Turn my back and run?  Take down and grapple ? 

Legions are training BJJ... which works exceptionally well in the High School Hallway... Usually Never in most real situation where you are truly in danger ... that last statement could also be said about a lot of karate too

Three undeniable truths of self defense... 

A) thugs come in gangs, gang members don’t just stand by and watch 1vs1... 

B) Real lone wolf knuckle draggers  will always have a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon) 

C) Predators are opportunists ... they will only pounce when they perceive the situation will be in there favor.


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> The “High School Hallway scenario”  where the combatants know each other, and there is a crowd of bystanders to witness it and break it up .... is “unfortunately” what many train for... what many think a self defense scenario is. They just envision scenario in different locations, parking lot, mall etc...
> 
> They Train an MA to save face...



That's unfortunate?  Because for a scenario beyond that, you need to be going the range regularly.

All of the fights I've gotten into in my adulthood, except for one, were with people who were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.  The deal with people under the influence is that they're not inhibited by the lack of weapons or lack of fellow gang members present, nor do they have the foresight to assess whether or not the situation will end favorably for them.  But these scenarios can and do happen.


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## letsplaygames (Apr 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> That's unfortunate?  Because for a scenario beyond that, you need to be going the range regularly.



+ 1. Totally agree! 

25 yrs I lived in Metro Detroit, every violent crime that I read about in and around Detroit... the only MA that I thought applicable was “Foot to Pavement Fu”! 

2nd Amendment and a CDL are the best self defense options...


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2021)

No, which is why I switched to Bjj.


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## letsplaygames (Apr 22, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> No, which is why I switched to Bjj.



In a real self defense scenario you don't think you took a step backwards going from Karate to BJJ?  *I'm honestly asking and not trolling. I'm curious into the mindset of a grappler on real self defense.*

I never bar hopped without a wing man...  Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy.  Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them!  (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.)   I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.  

_The Lone Mugger scenario_..  a high percentage use a weapon.  I don't know, nor have seen any grappler who could deal  with a serious knife attack..i.e.  without taking a serious, possibly life ending wound(s).. Every mock scenario I've seen on youtube or witnessed hat starts with a very aggressive sewing machine attack, the grapple defense falters, and breaks.. if successful.. serious, often fatal wounds would have been acquired during the defense.  (No one talks about going into shock and what happens to the body when that happens)  Because of the lethalness of knife attacks FBI and law enforcement teach distance (i.e. mobility as a defense)  while employing a firearm. 

Ok... So one get's lucky and runs into a Thug Mugger who uses his fists to thrash money and valuables from his victim, that's a level of violence few even if "booked up on technique" are prepared for.  The best can and do freeze.  OK trained BJJ guy submits the thug... Then what.. ???  Hold him tell he says "Uncle" then let him up?  In an ally?   A deserted parking lot?   rool the dice and let him up?    Dislocate, break... what?  Who trains to end someone's life?  Going further on the this .... the BJJ guy chokes the thug out and doesn't resuscitate his attacker.  Is his attacker now the victim? , Is that murder?  Or does one resuscitate the guy who just attempted to mug them?  If not.... sure would look like murder to an innocent bystander walking by.  Might look that way to a judge... IDK... honestly IDK...

I'm a firm believer you react under extreme pressure by how you train and what methods you train in. I see a lot of rolling in BJJ, which IMO is counter intuitive to effective self defense... which is always based around mobility using distance as a defense. I've had BJJ guys say .. that's exactly what I'd train to do i.e. "maintain distance!"  

Ok... then what about that is different or superior to Karate?...    

From my perspective and maybe I'm missing something and I could be... but I don't see a lot of reality outside of sport in BJJ.  Most BJJ focus on Rolling, take downs, slips, entering, mount technique, guard technique, submissions, chokes etc etc  Yes... Yes...and  yes.... that's really effective mono vs mono or in sport...  Yet..... In Reality it is extremely rare a "duel to the death" by hand to hand combat happens . I just don't read that in the newspapers... 

Face Saving" violence.   Drunk on Drunk... Drunk vs Sober... scenarios like that... all martial arts IMO are equal.    
 IMO....* Urban Trekker *basically dropped the mic and walked out the room and ended this thread with the "* for a scenario beyond that,(i.e Saving Face in School Yard scenario)  you need to be going the range regularly.*  I totally agree...  training with a focus on mobility and employing a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon preferably a firearm )  is training self defense.   Period... *all other * school yard scenarios  Karate is sufficient


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## Graywalker (Apr 22, 2021)

Not a shotokan practitioner, but I have been successful using Shudokan (Toyama.a senior to Ginchin) and have found it to be very effective.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> In a real self defense scenario you don't think you took a step backwards going from Karate to BJJ?  *I'm honestly asking and not trolling. I'm curious into the mindset of a grappler on real self defense.*
> 
> I never bar hopped without a wing man...  Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy.  Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them!  (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.)   I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.
> 
> ...


I've never seen a striking art train knife defense in any way that seemed at all likely to succeed. If there's a weapon, you've really got three choices if you can't defuse the situation:

Run significantly faster than them long enough for them to give up (however long that takes.
Hit them enough they stop trying to stab you....while not being stabbed (you're in knife range when you hit them).
Get ahold of the arm holding that weapon and restrain it (or perhaps control them from a direction they can't use it, but that's a reach).
None of those seem high percentage, unless you're a fast runner. Failing #1, a mix of #2 and #3 seems the best bet unless you have a weapon of your own.

If the person is delivering hard sewing-machine stabs, there aren't many people who will have an answer to that, even with training.

And, no, I don't think a CCW is usually a good option for self-defense. Most folks are poorly trained with their weapons, and even worse at drawing them quickly to get on target. And knife vs gun-not-yet-drawn goes pretty badly on average within about 25-30 feet if the knife wielder is actually attacking. With sufficient training and a good understanding of the limitations of the weapon, a gun can be effective. Most people I've known who carried lacked at least one of those two elements.


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And, no, I don't think a CCW is usually a good option for self-defense. Most folks are poorly trained with their weapons, and even worse at drawing them quickly to get on target. And knife vs gun-not-yet-drawn goes pretty badly on average within about 25-30 feet if the knife wielder is actually attacking. With sufficient training and a good understanding of the limitations of the weapon, a gun can be effective. Most people I've known who carried lacked at least one of those two elements.



Knife attacks appear to be pretty rare, especially when you compare that to the number of instances of gun violence.  FTR, between knives and firearms, I carry both as part of my EDC.


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 23, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Period... *all other * school yard scenarios  Karate is sufficient



Exactly, and let's just put out there the fact that people who take up martial arts in order to win school yard (types of) fights tend not to stick around long anyway.  It costs money, it costs time that you could be sitting on your couch at home watching Netflix, and it requires you to stick to it for a long time.  After awhile, they'll decide that they'd rather just take their chances untrained.  And I wouldn't blame them.  If that's why you're doing it, it's not worth it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Knife attacks appear to be pretty rare


Agreed. I was just responding to the poster's comment that grappling against a knife was fundamentally flawed.


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## letsplaygames (Apr 23, 2021)

I totally get all the above... 

(Most folks are poorly trained ) It's the same "why" that causes people saying "XYZ" martial art doesn't work.  

Tactical firearms training is no different.  They train you to deal with a knife attacks, they train you to deal with multiple attacker, they train you to deal with  another person using a firearm against you.  It is a MA all to it's self.  It's not a one and done course.  (or I say... it shouldn't be)

My original post wasn't meant to troll  Hanzou.  _It was to get and understanding of someone who has bought into the narrative of the modern day MA.  A lot of what I see... I just don't understand for the reasons cited.  _

Historically...  traditional non grappling martial out number grappling arts 10 to 1. ( the plethora of Kung Fu styles, various Karate ryu etc )  Historically.... these arts always were coupled with weapons training.  Kobudo for example...  

Why is that?   I've seen on the internet.. the hypothesis... the 10 to 1 ratio is because grappling was military based.  There is no historical evidence of any truth to that. In fact historical evidence (primary source accounts point to the exact opposite...)  Debunked was the myth that Karate was created by peasants... this truth... falls in line with the historical premise above.   

Training in weapons ... I.e modern ones like a firearm (the modern sword) seems logical... seems concurrent with traditional martial arts.  I'm convinced that our societal environments and norms haven't change all that much throughout history. ( a quick read of the Bible says exactly that)   The toys and inventions... have changed.. but how we think and act no...  I think the same questions I posed above have been plaguing MA's for eternality... Hence the real reason for the 10 to 1 ratio.  (I also believe there are no right or wrong way.. what works for the individual is the right way.. period)


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## jobo (Apr 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Exactly, and let's just put out there the fact that people who take up martial arts in order to win school yard (types of) fights tend not to stick around long anyway.  It costs money, it costs time that you could be sitting on your couch at home watching Netflix, and it requires you to stick to it for a long time.  After awhile, they'll decide that they'd rather just take their chances untrained.  And I wouldn't blame them.  If that's why you're doing it, it's not worth it.


well if they do indeed learn to win those fights, there is little need to stick around any longer than that

people tend to stop having driving lessons when they have reached the pre determind level of ability, if they can now" drive" is a value judgment


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> well if they do indeed learn to win those fights, there is little need to stick around any longer than that



I remember hearing a stat somewhere, and I think it may have been on the Art of One Dojo YouTube channel, that 50% of students who start TMA don't stick around past 3 months (or something like that, numbers could be off some).  This is consistent with my anecdotal observations.  That's not going to do much for anyone.



> people tend to stop having driving lessons when they have reached the pre determind level of ability, if they can now" drive" is a value judgment



Even if what I said above was a non-issue, that's not a good analogy.  You continuously train for things that do not occur on a regular basis.  Like fighting.  If you're driving your car to work and back everyday, you're already staying sharp from that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I remember hearing a stat somewhere, and I think it may have been on the Art of One Dojo YouTube channel, that 50% of students who start TMA don't stick around past 3 months (or something like that, numbers could be off some). This is consistent with my anecdotal observations. That's not going to do much for anyone.


Since you started with the assertion that folks who start with the intention to learn to fight schoolyard fights don't stick around, I'm assuming you're linking this statistic to that claim. Where's the evidence the folks you're talking about here started for that reason?

My experience is that folks don't stick around for a number of reasons, but three reasons seem to be the most common from observation. Either it's more work than they are willing to put in (getting sore and such), it's not as much fun as it looked (some folks are just joining because MA looks like fun - which it is to most of us who stick), or other priorities get in the way (keeping time open for MA classes would interfere with other priorities).


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Since you started with the assertion that folks who start with the intention to learn to fight schoolyard fights don't stick around, I'm assuming you're linking this statistic to that claim.



You assumed wrong.



> Where's the evidence the folks you're talking about here started for that reason?



I dunno.



> My experience is that folks don't stick around for a number of reasons, but three reasons seem to be the most common from observation. Either it's more work than they are willing to put in (getting sore and such), it's not as much fun as it looked (some folks are just joining because MA looks like fun - which it is to most of us who stick), or other priorities get in the way (keeping time open for MA classes would interfere with other priorities).



Do you have stats?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You assumed wrong.


So, just abandoned that claim and jumped to something different. Got it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Do you have stats?


Nope. As I said, that's from observation, not a study.


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, just abandoned that claim and jumped to something different. Got it.



Nope.  Your assumption that I was going to post some link was wrong.


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. As I said, that's from observation, not a study.



Ah, the very thing you were trying to get at me for.  I see how it is.


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## jobo (Apr 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I remember hearing a stat somewhere, and I think it may have been on the Art of One Dojo YouTube channel, that 50% of students who start TMA don't stick around past 3 months (or something like that, numbers could be off some).  This is consistent with my anecdotal observations.  That's not going to do much for anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if what I said above was a non-issue, that's not a good analogy.  You continuously train for things that do not occur on a regular basis.  Like fighting.  If you're driving your car to work and back everyday, you're already staying sharp from that.


the fall off for most things people sign up for is considerable, commercial gyms over sell memberships by about 500 % as they know most of them are never going to turn up after the first week unless it for a skinny latte

gym fees seem to exist almost entirely as a fat  guilt tax

that said if you can learn to drive to the point your allowed to take a killing machine out in public in three, months

then you should be able to learn to fight to a reasonable standard in the same time frame, admittedly some tma make this a difficult proposition,  as they move at glacial speed, your likely to spend three months learn to move your left foot and your arm in a circle, which may be why so many quit?


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> I never bar hopped without a wing man... Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy. Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them! (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.) I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.



People raise these points and each one is this super complicated situation that takes pages of nuance to really understand and then throw lots of them in one post. That makes it so hard to go in to that it is just easier to let the dogma win. 

So just this one section. Bjj teaches grappling but along with that teaches anti grappling. And so in an environment where you are being held on to you should be in a dominant position and be able to choose what you do. 

This is very important. 

It means if you are grabbed or thrown or held down you have the best tools to be un grabbed un thrown and un held down. So in a multiple attacker situation you have the best chance of negating their most effective option which is dog piling you on to the deck and beating you up. 

Alternatively. If I also have a wing man and can effectively hold you down then you are fighting from positional disadvantage.

Which raises the next point. 

Positional disadvantage negates striking. So if you are a very good striker and I am a poor striker, but I am sitting on top of you or have a dominant clinch then my striking will pretty much be more effective. So in these positions the best striker is actually the best grappler. 

Also the more dominant position I strike from the more likely I am to stop the guy I am fighting and less likely to be stopped by him. So if I am standing up trading shots with three guys there are three times as many punches coming at my head as I can physically dish out. And the likely hood of me being able to drop even one of them before I get dropped isn't actually very good. 

This is where the risk of going to ground or clinching and throwing effective unopposed shots becomes a bit more viable. Say it takes your mate 10 seconds to cover distance and go for me. I could have ten seconds of basically unopposed striking before he rolled up. Then I could stand up and deal with your mate or run off or all sorts of things. Where if I am trading stand up for ten seconds and a second guy shows up I have just lowered my odds considerably. And I am probably as gassed and beaten up as the guy I am fighting. 

Now all of these options are risk assessments there is no hard and fast rule to determine when to do what.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> BJJ guy chokes the thug out and doesn't resuscitate his attacker. Is his attacker now the victim? , Is that murder? Or does one resuscitate the guy who just attempted to mug them? If not.... sure would look like murder to an innocent bystander walking by. Might look that way to a judge... IDK... honestly IDK...



You generally dont have to resuscitate anyone from a choke. They mostly just wake up of their own accord. Yes people die. But people also die from being punched in the head.











All that back slapping or feet raising is basically unnecessary drama.

And so how would you use this in real life?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL7nb4MN7OYPswjj7RRi_0mndYfIrC8Ef


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Ah, the very thing you were trying to get at me for.  I see how it is.


I actually didn’t ask for stats. I asked for evidence of a link. But I get that you don’t know the difference.


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I actually didn’t ask for stats. I asked for evidence of a link. But I get that you don’t know the difference.



Stats are a form of evidence. But I don't expect you to know that.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Stats are a form of evidence. But I don't expect you to know that.


they are, but so is just about anything else that isnt totally dependent on your unsupported opinion, 

so far its unsupported opinion that your been subjecting us to, which isnt therefore commonly accepted as being evidential


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> they are, but so is just about anything else that isnt totally dependent on your unsupported opinion,
> 
> so far its unsupported opinion that your been subjecting us to, which isnt therefore commonly accepted as being evidential



Same goes for gpseymour.  We both based our statements on anecdotal observations.  We both admitted it.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> In a real self defense scenario you don't think you took a step backwards going from Karate to BJJ?  *I'm honestly asking and not trolling. I'm curious into the mindset of a grappler on real self defense.*
> 
> I never bar hopped without a wing man...  Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy.  Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them!  (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.)   I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.
> 
> ...



There's a lot of assumptions in this post. I'll try to address them point by point;

Single/Multiple Attackers: Whether I stuck with Karate or did what I did and switched over to Bjj, I'm not engaging in a fight unless someone forces me to fight them. If someone is putting up their dukes, I don't need to engage, I can just get away. If someone whips out a knife, I can still get away. The only point where I have to engage is if someone grabs me and doesn't allow me to leave. In that situation, Bjj is the better option.

When it comes to submissions/chokes, it all depends on the level of violence. If my life is in danger, I'm breaking their limb, and I know multiple ways to break multiple limbs. Not a brag, simply a reality of training Bjj for almost 2 decades. Additionally, for what to break? You can break their leg(s) so that they can't get up regardless of what they're hopped up on. Popping a shoulder in incredibly painful and will stop people in their tracks and can be done from multiple positions (including standing) while on the offensive via the Kimura. I would only do an arm bar from a defensive position.

Chokes are another option, and contrary to popular belief, it's rather hard to kill someone with a choke. A properly applied choke will knock out the typical person in a matter of seconds, and it can take about 15-20 seconds for them to wake up, and up to a few minutes for them to collect their thoughts. That's plenty of time to escape the situation. The only point where you would kill someone with a choke is if you slapped on a choke and didn't let up for several minutes. That is completely unnecessary, because again, a person will go limp from a properly applied choke in a matter of seconds. 

In either case, a limb break or a choke is preferable to attempting to pummel an assailant with blows.



> I'm a firm believer you react under extreme pressure by how you train and what methods you train in. I see a lot of rolling in BJJ, which IMO is counter intuitive to effective self defense... which is always based around mobility using distance as a defense. I've had BJJ guys say .. that's exactly what I'd train to do i.e. "maintain distance!"



The reason you see guys rolling around in Bjj is because you're seeing two grapplers with skill going at it. If I'm in a self defense encounter, there's a pretty high chance that the person assaulting me isn't as skilled a grappler, so it would take significantly less time to subdue them than it would me subduing a classmate. It would be like rolling with a white belt, which advanced BJJ practitioners do constantly for that very reason.

Also again, I'm only engaging if the attacker has left me no other option, and that mainly only happens if the assailant has grabbed me and made it impossible for me to leave. So yes I'll maintain distance until the assailant takes that away from me.



> Ok... then what about that is different or superior to Karate?...
> 
> From my perspective and maybe I'm missing something and I could be... but I don't see a lot of reality outside of sport in BJJ.  Most BJJ focus on Rolling, take downs, slips, entering, mount technique, guard technique, submissions, chokes etc etc  Yes... Yes...and  yes.... that's really effective mono vs mono or in sport...  Yet..... In Reality it is extremely rare a "duel to the death" by hand to hand combat happens . I just don't read that in the newspapers...
> 
> ...



Yeah, see above. Again, being able to snap a limb quickly or choking someone out is far more effective and efficient than punching or kicking someone. In addition, there's plenty of violent situations that Karate simply doesn't prepare you for. Being on your back with someone on top of you immediately comes to mind.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Same goes for gpseymour.  We both based our statements on anecdotal observations.  We both admitted it.


anecdotes can be evidential, what not so is other peoples anecdotes, that's hearsay, as soon as you say" this guy told me" or I read somewhere, but forgot where it's not your anecdote

all so not evidence is opinions based on your anecdotes,  unless you add, "in my considered opinion "or similar.

to make it clear what's evidence and what's your opinion of the evidence


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## letsplaygames (Apr 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> People raise these points and each one is this super complicated situation that takes pages of nuance to really understand and then throw lots of them in one post. That makes it so hard to go in to that it is just easier to let the dogma win.
> 
> So just this one section. Bjj teaches grappling but along with that teaches anti grappling. And so in an environment where you are being held on to you should be in a dominant position and be able to choose what you do.
> 
> ...





drop bear said:


> You generally dont have to resuscitate anyone from a choke. They mostly just wake up of their own accord. Yes people die. But people also die from being punched in the head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Both great posts!  I was being honest when I said I wasn’t trolling and trying to understand the mindset of a grappler when it came to self defense.  Imo... I think you did an excellent job clueing me in!
Most appreciated!


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## Urban Trekker (Apr 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> anecdotes can be evidential, what not so is other peoples anecdotes, that's hearsay, as soon as you say" this guy told me" or I read somewhere, but forgot where it's not your anecdote
> 
> all so not evidence is opinions based on your anecdotes,  unless you add, "in my considered opinion "or similar.
> 
> to make it clear what's evidence and what's your opinion of the evidence



Say.... WHAAAAAAT?  I'm not even gonna try to figure that out.  You win.


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## Graywalker (Apr 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Say.... WHAAAAAAT?  I'm not even gonna try to figure that out.  You win.


Hilarious, you will get a lot of word salad from several members...for sure.

Hilarious post.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Stats are a form of evidence. But I don't expect you to know that.


They are. You might notice you said "a form of evidence". Not the only one, and the statements I made were clearly stated as personal observations. Those should be taken with a grain of salt, since such are generally not supportable by evidence. But since I made no claim beyond my personal observations, they don't really require additional support.

If you disagree with what I've observed, perhaps share what you think is either incorrect or not generalizable about my statements, rather than just ranting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Same goes for gpseymour.  We both based our statements on anecdotal observations.  We both admitted it.


Yes, and the only time I brought up evidence was when you made two statements in a row that seemed meant to be connected, but didn't logically connect.

Absent that implied/inferred connection, the discussion could easily have just continued.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> There's a lot of assumptions in this post. I'll try to address them point by point;
> 
> Single/Multiple Attackers: Whether I stuck with Karate or did what I did and switched over to Bjj, I'm not engaging in a fight unless someone forces me to fight them. If someone is putting up their dukes, I don't need to engage, I can just get away. If someone whips out a knife, I can still get away. The only point where I have to engage is if someone grabs me and doesn't allow me to leave. In that situation, Bjj is the better option.
> 
> ...


Literally the only thing I could find to disagree with (because I can't go around agreeing with you, dangit!) is that leaving is necessarily an option against a knife. Before my foot surgery, I rather routinely had days when leaving would have been a fast jog at best. Same would go for some injuries I've had (oddly, most of them not from MA). In those cases, striking probably just gets me to where I can grapple for my life. If I can get possession of the knife arm, I'm never giving it back.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Literally the only thing I could find to disagree with (because I can't go around agreeing with you, dangit!) is that leaving is necessarily an option against a knife. Before my foot surgery, I rather routinely had days when leaving would have been a fast jog at best. Same would go for some injuries I've had (oddly, most of them not from MA). In those cases, striking probably just gets me to where I can grapple for my life. If I can get possession of the knife arm, I'm never giving it back.



Yeah, my general point is that if I'm in a mugging situation and someone flashes a knife or a gun, I'm getting out of dodge. The only time where I'd need to actually fight this person is if they grab me and me handing over my wallet is simply not enough (which is weird because that's the point of a mugging).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, my general point is that if I'm in a mugging situation and someone flashes a knife or a gun, I'm getting out of dodge. The only time where I'd need to actually fight this person is if they grab me and me handing over my wallet is simply not enough (which is weird because that's the point of a mugging).


Unless you're Bruce Wayne's parents. Nothing will save you then.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, my general point is that if I'm in a mugging situation and someone flashes a knife or a gun, I'm getting out of dodge. The only time where I'd need to actually fight this person is if they grab me and me handing over my wallet is simply not enough (which is weird because that's the point of a mugging).


one, the best way to avoid having your wallet stolen is not to have a wallet, lots of people miss this simple solution 

2) however they are not likely to belive you so extending the encounter whilst you convince them
3) best to have a wallet with a modest amount of money in it, so they leave reasonably satisfied with their work,
whilst you have your  wealth in your sock


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> one, the best way to avoid having your wallet stolen is not to have a wallet, lots of people miss this simple solution
> 
> 2) however they are not likely to belive you so extending the encounter whilst you convince them
> 3) best to have a wallet with a modest amount of money in it, so they leave reasonably satisfied with their work,
> whilst you have your  wealth in your sock



I haven't carried cash in quite some time. My money is wrapped up in bank/debit cards. If someone steals them, I can simply cancel them and order new ones.

That's kind of my point; Mugging isn't really a huge issue for me because I have no problem handing my wallet over if I'm being mugged. There's nothing in that wallet that can't be replaced relatively quickly.


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## jobo (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I haven't carried cash in quite some time. My money is wrapped up in bank/debit cards. If someone steals them, I can simply cancel them and order new ones.
> 
> That's kind of my point; Mugging isn't really a huge issue for me because I have no problem handing my wallet over if I'm being mugged. There's nothing in that wallet that can't be replaced relatively quickly.


but it's best to give them money carry a modest amount for that purpose, they are more likely to leave quickly than want too frisk you for any money you might have in your sock, or decided they are accompanying you to the auto bank
 they have an appointment with a drug dealer, get them on their way quickly


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## Graywalker (Apr 27, 2021)

One thing that I came to realize, concerning using Karate in a fight situation, is the fact that techniques taught, work if you stay in the fight.

What I mean by that is that Karate (at least the Toyama line) focused on three concepts when it came to combat...'Enter, Counter, Finish'. And, you would hear that there is no stepping back in Karate, it took a few fights to understand what this means.

If you stay in the fight, by deflecting attacks, and then counter those strikes, it keeps you inside the striking range. And, you are able to initiate throws, takedowns and such.

Karate does work, and in my opinion very effective in the real world. Now this is just from my personal experience.

I believe that I have fought a diverse group of fighters in my day, in and out of the ring (mostly out) challenges were made, and I usually accepted them. 

As, in those days there was known that a person would train and spar for years and then, when a real situation came to play...that person would lose miserably. Because of this, I took my art and tested it everywhere and against whomever I could...be it boxers, wrestlers, Mauy Tai, Kung Fu, TKD and a string of others systems, street fighters, even some weapons and for me, Karate seemed well rounded. 

Doing this and being there in the 80's when point fighting became popular, I realized that the sport aspect, changed how Karate was taught and distributed for actual combat.

But in the end, I came to realize that for me, there wasn't much else needed.


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## ThatOneCanadian (May 14, 2021)

See this thing right here? Imagine that but my right hand is a closed fist. Without going into too many details about what happened: *person shoves me around and tries to start a physical confrontation with me, I shove person back with my left hand and raise my right hand with a closed fist - all the while putting my weight on my back leg and keeping my front leg nice and relaxed in preparation for a groin kick if need be - telling them to leave me alone. They realize I am capable of defending myself so they lay off. I return to a neutral position and we both walk away. Situation defused, nobody hurt.*

People say that a Karateka who goes their entire life without actually fighting is doing Karate the right way. Ever since this confrontation - which was thankfully the only one I've had since I started doing Karate - my interpretation of bunkai takes into account not only actual combat techniques but also conflict defusal techniques such as this one. I highly recommend that every martial artist study the science of deterrence, just as, for example, a policeman would. Any fight that both parties can walk away from unharmed is a fight won for both sides, and any hoodlum you can fend off using words or gestures is a hoodlum that might reconsider their actions in the future.


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## Urban Trekker (May 14, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Mugging isn't really a huge issue for me because I have no problem handing my wallet over if I'm being mugged.


I don't think assuming that the mugger won't stab or shoot you anyway is much of a safe bet.  I'd rather rely on my concealed carry than compliance.


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## Dirty Dog (May 14, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That's kind of my point; Mugging isn't really a huge issue for me because I have no problem handing my wallet over if I'm being mugged. There's nothing in that wallet that can't be replaced relatively quickly.


Assuming that they will leave with your wallet is unwarranted. I was mugged by a guy with a knife. I gave him my wallet. Then he attacked. 
I don't know of any reliable statistics on how often the mugger will flee with your wallet vs attack, but it's obviously not a given that they will leave.


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