# FMA On The Ground



## Icepick (Dec 4, 2001)

Ever since I was a small child, I have derived great enjoyment from  bullying those smaller than myself, so naturally, I like sports/arts like wrestling and BJJ.

My first and most extensive exposure to Martial Arts has been in Modern Arnis.  As a FMArtist, I have also followed the rise of the Dog Brothers, and their style of "Real Contact Stickfighting".  This leads me to wonder why we see so little groundfighting in the FMA.  In Modern Arnis, the groundfighting portion generally consists of: I throw you to the ground, I "groundfight", your arm breaks.  Professor taught very little (any?) technique for being in an inferior position on the ground.  I once attempted to explore this with him, by asking "What would you do in a stickfight if the other guy tackled you?".  He looked at me quizzically, and asked "Who could do that?".  Now, that may work for someone who is clearly at the genius level in stickfighting, but obviously, not every eskrimador is at Professor's level...

I have a few theories (not that they all originate with me, but):

1.) If an eskrimador had a stick, he probably had a knife as backup.  A knife is an effective deterrent to grappling.

2.) Even in "death matches" in the PI, Manong Buot describes a referee, and rules.  These matches were a test of skill, and losing your stick is a loss.  Therefore, most Arnis/Kali/Eskrima systems eschewed groundfighting.

3.) There exist indigenous FMA grappling arts, but there has not been the incentive to continue them or bring them to the US.

4.) The use of a helmet in DBMA fighting makes the takedown possible.  Between skilled eskrimador, the use of the punyo makes groundfighting unlikely.

There are surely people who know a lot more than me on this topic, and I look forward to your responses.  Also, has anyone trained in Paul Vunak's "Dumog" or Garimot Arnis "Buno".  I've seen a little of the latter, but no dumog as described in PFS video.  

Thanks!


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## Black Grass (Dec 5, 2001)

There is a tendency to group all the FMA together. We equate that arnis/eskrima/kali as being the same as we do dumog/buno/grappling. However, intentions of the arts may be different.

Now agree that arnis/eskrima/kali today are all basically the same (weapon based systems) but the intentions of the different systems are not. FMA weapon based systems can be generally group in two ways :  stick v. blade and dueling v. combat. This is what i see as ultimately driving if there is ground grappling (or grappling in general) with weapons or not. 

Dueling v. Combat:
Dueling is one on one and combat can be any combanation of people. Dueling allows for grappling (standup and ground)  and combat does not (for the most part). When you are concerned with only one opponent you can spend your time grappling with your opponent, but when you need to worry about others on the battlefield you can't spead to much time with one person (and this includes roling on the ground).  Also in dueling the point is to win, now winning may mean anything from making your opponent lose it  submit or killing him but in combat the point is to stay alive. 

Stick v. Blade:
First off, there are FMA systems that have ground grappling with the stick. Villibrille is an example of a system that has ground stick grappling. Systems that are based on the  blade would not have grappling as this is generally unadvisable. Kalis Ilustrisimo (lit. sword Ilustrisimo)  is almost completely devoid of grappling ( including standup). In terms of the helmets the DB use, they  don't offer alot of protection to the head but they do however provide some protection to the face. A shot to the top of the head with a rattan stick may not stop someone but a shot to the face is another story.

Buno/Dumog:
Buno/Dumog/Bultung/Combat Judo all describe the samething 'grappling' but there intentions are different.  Again is this grappling for combat or as a contest? Dumog is a very generic term, among the igorot dumog is a contest where you want to pin your opponent,  in the Visayas combat judo is a term used to describe combat grappling or dumog (it is not related to Kano judo). Again in a combat situation you don't want to spend time rolling. It seems most of the Filipino grappling taught in the US is more combat based hence there is not alot of ground grappling being taught. Again there are systems that do have ground grappling. Hagibis is an example.

So there are many factors as to why there is not alot of FMA ground grappling.

just my 2 cents  ( 1.2 cents US)

regards,

Vince


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## Icepick (Dec 5, 2001)

Black Grass -

What does the "combat judo" look like?


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## Black Grass (Dec 5, 2001)

Its just another term for dumog or buno, locks and throws that don't rely on grabbing clothes. 

Again dumog and buno are generic terms like arnis or eskrima. How one does dumog or buno or combat judo may very from person to person. They are not necessarily  specfic  systems. Its like Arnis Lanada and Modern Arnis both are arnis, infact both are examples of modern arnis (modern as opposed to classical) but are unrelated method wise. 

(Sorry for the confusion, I made the mistake of  using proper names when I ment  the terms generically)


Regards,

Vince


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## IFAJKD (Dec 5, 2001)

I am an Instructor under Paul Vunak and have trained in Dumog. It IS a Filipin grappling system and when incorporated with BJJ it is very very good from standing clinching range (trapping) to the ground.. From there Kino Mutai is most effective but few know. Dan Inosanto brought this  to Paul and Paul to his Instructors.


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## Black Grass (Dec 5, 2001)

Hey IFAJKD,

I too train under the PFS banner (under Makoto Kabayama). 
What I posted is that dumog is a very generic term that can describe a system such as the one Vu has or the igorot have or grappling in general and that not all dumog is the same or has the same purpose. Bisaya/Cebuano dumog can mean wrestling. 

Regards,

Vince


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## IFAJKD (Dec 6, 2001)

Vince, Hey man cool to see ya here. Mokoto, very good indeed. You're right,  Dumog can be alot like "kali" in that it describes alot. also kinda like "karate" many different things come to mind. In the systems I trained Dumog under, I have condensed it into the following. 
1: standing grappling/clinching
2: ground manipulations with emphasis on BJJ
3: of course finally Kino Mutai

As you know, Dumog (as taught through Paul) really emphasises the body's natural choke points. Combined with major tools it can be very awesome. With trapping it becomes very unique. The nice things about JKD is this integration. To be honest It is work for me to pay attention to where one system ends and another picks up. 
See ya around


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## Mao (Dec 24, 2001)

I think that you are on the right track with your BJJ bent these days. I love the idea of cross training. One of the styles that I "use" is pencak silat mande muda, particularly harimau. It is a great ground "game" among other things. I have found that a good bit of the harimau in mande muda fits perfectly with much of the ground work in modern arnis. What I have found is that alot of the ground work in mod. arnis is the same as that in mande muda only mande muda takes the movement further, to a finish, if you will. GADZ, I love martial arts.....:rofl:


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## thekuntawman (Jan 12, 2002)

the reason philippine martial arts seems "one dimension" to a lot of american students, is that the philippine philosophy is not to be a jack of all trades. we specialize in our style of fighting, maybe two, then we learn how to fight those different styles that arent like ours. martial artists here want to know everything, and they forgot that you have do better than just know the other style, you have to be very good at it.

if a jujitsu man picks a fight with me, and i have a knife, so he pulls one out, if he is not better than me at the knife, he is in big trouble. i dont care how many knife tapes he got or how many seminars he went to. but at the same time, if he wants to wrestle, and i try to wrestle with him, cross training time wont help me, since i am trying to beat him at his game.

but if the jujitsu man learns to wrestle me with a knife (i wont be so arrogant to say he would be stupid since i dont know who would win), he will have a better chance to beat me than if he wants to fight my way.

in the philippines, strikiing with the hands or the weapon is the favorite specialty. not many styles chose to try other things, and that is why pilipinos are the best at that kind of fighting. and just because we dont do a little of this and alittle of that it doesnt mean thoe styles are incomplete. they are only incomplete if they dont study how to fight a grappler using their specialty.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 19, 2006)

From what I've seen, It works very well on the ground. The art of biting? Those BJJ holds will open up quick! The destructions? Much easier to pull off down there. Armed with a blade or knife? No leverage for the opponent to use, no where to evade, with you on them? Enough said!


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## Blindside (Apr 19, 2006)

Wow, serious thread necromancy going on here.


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## Selfcritical (Apr 19, 2006)

"Stick v. Blade:
First off, there are FMA systems that have ground grappling with the stick. Villibrille is an example of a system that has ground stick grappling. Systems that are based on the blade would not have grappling as this is generally unadvisable. Kalis Ilustrisimo (lit. sword Ilustrisimo) is almost completely devoid of grappling ( including standup). In terms of the helmets the DB use, they don't offer alot of protection to the head but they do however provide some protection to the face. A shot to the top of the head with a rattan stick may not stop someone but a shot to the face is another story."

Pekiti Tirsia is a bit weird here, being a very heavy blade art that places a lot emphasis on it's standing grappling techniques. Most of the PTK people I train with also do Mande Muda to improve their ground game and takedowns.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 7, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Wow, serious thread necromancy going on here.


Hey, someone told me FMA on MT was dead.....Me, I'm buying lots of jumper cables to bring this place back to life.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 7, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Hey, someone told me FMA on MT was dead.....Me, I'm buying lots of jumper cables to bring this place back to life.


As to a ground game, I've gotta pipe in with a bit of 'beginners rust'.
We've done take downs, and ground work at my school, but, I couldn't tell you how "Pure Filipino" it is.  I just know, it hurts.


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## Jonathan Randall (May 7, 2006)

What are the preferred FMA empty hand strikes for groundfighting? As a newbie, I'm curious.


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## Marvin (May 11, 2006)

When I did FMA the groundwork was about 50% pain compliance and 50%off balancing to get the person on the ground i.e. you stay up and when they fall, kick then in the head/kidneys. In one style, if we both got went to the ground it was a mad scramble to get to the top position. We had no idea about mount or guard, etc. In another style of FMA that I trained in there was some attacking on the ground. Some of that ground work may have been silat as well, but again the emphasis was on always on compliant partners.


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## Selfcritical (May 11, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> When I did FMA the groundwork was about 50% pain compliance and 50%off balancing to get the person on the ground i.e. you stay up and when they fall, kick then in the head/kidneys. In one style, if we both got went to the ground it was a mad scramble to get to the top position. We had no idea about mount or guard, etc. In another style of FMA that I trained in there was some attacking on the ground. Some of that ground work may have been silat as well, but again the emphasis was on always on compliant partners.


 
When I trained with tuhon gaje, whom I can say pretty definitively has no expierience with BJJ or any western submission wrestling stye, we worked guard, guard passes, and armbars in our groundwork, the proper way to maintain headlock on resisting opponent, and a few other things i'm forgetting. I did get the impression that a lot of this stuff was from the silat groundwork.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (May 18, 2006)

Hello Guys,

Something to think about!

If you are a blade based system are you including in your training:

1) Concealment points for your weapon(s)
2) Concealment points of your opponent's weapon(s)
3) Standing control and balance points of your opponent
4) Methods to control the opponent's weapon or weapon containing side
5) Basic grappling techniques(unarmed)
6) Deploying your weapon(s) from disadvantaged positions
7) Basic defense/counters while on your back
8) Basic defense/counters while on your side or seated
9) Target aquistion from disadvataged positions
10) Low light training
11) Sparring scenarios
12) Standing sparring to entry and takedown vs and armed opponent


Just a few points to add to the mix! Many, many more should be put into your routine training plan.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com


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## arnisador (May 18, 2006)

Selfcritical said:
			
		

> When I trained with tuhon gaje, whom I can say pretty definitively has no expierience with BJJ or any western submission wrestling stye, we worked guard, guard passes, and armbars in our groundwork, the proper way to maintain headlock on resisting opponent, and a few other things i'm forgetting. I did get the impression that a lot of this stuff was from the silat groundwork.


 
Jerson Tortal of the related Dekiti Tirsia Seradas system has shown me a number of ground-fighting techniques that are effective and that, I am told, are native Filipino. I hope to learn more about it later this summer when he returns to Indiana!


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (May 18, 2006)

Hello Arnisador,

I met Grandmaster Tortal several years ago it was a great training experience. If you see him , please wish him the best from me.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

I hear lots of talk of groud on tirsa-concpts BUT not 1 on the art of Presas line.Do none of you have time from 70s or 80 when Kuntao was primary?The sikaron or pana --jockmen depending on region  you want to call the low line kicks & the hubud we did had endless standing to ground & vice versa.This was our training.How can 1 say they have mater of if they dont know the line & history of the art & founder & details of such said art.QUESTION?


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I hear lots of talk of groud on tirsa-concpts BUT not 1 on the art of Presas line.Do none of you have time from 70s or 80 when Kuntao was primary?The sikaron or pana --jockmen depending on region you want to call the low line kicks & the hubud we did had endless standing to ground & vice versa.This was our training.How can 1 say they have mater of if they dont know the line & history of the art & founder & details of such said art.QUESTION?



Monkey,

I have access to those who trained in the 70's and I started also in the 80's.

I am curious as to your obsession with pointing out you trained with Bruce Lee and GM Remy & GM Ernesto Presas?

Also curious about your terms, as they are not in his books from the PI nor in the notes or paperwork I have from the 70's.  NOTE: I do not have a complete set of what was taught everywhere in the 70's and 80'sm but I was around for just over half the 80's talk and worked with those who stared in the early 80's and also worked with those that had theri black belts in the 70's. 

So here is the set for you to spike. What is your agenda with almost every post you make have to do with the Press Line or about Bruce Lee or both? 

Very Curious.


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

Ok good question 1st if you had the notes youd see that Jose Bonco y Presas  did ground & Remy was not tought by him.Ernesto was as I.I have the classs photo 1980 & I was there & Bruce Jutchnick was a Sacramento student as was Pallen Who was not in the class picture.The 80 shot shows me REmy & Ernesto  teaching as 1 art-1 line for a bit,Then they parted.

*[Mod Note:
Reason:Tape Trading Not Permitted.
Palusut MT Senior Moderator]*

But I am  doing lots of standing to ground.Now as I take it for the site most are off the Presas line in 1 way or another & lots of jkd people talking of concepts.I have to defend-suport-correct-question-stipulate ect of the arts of my teachers when some thing is good-great or forgotten!im not here to debate or judge or maintain or even  claim rites to.I am just asking things most should know but seem not to in 1 way or other.interesting delema.


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Ok good question 1st if you had the notes youd see that Jose Bonco y Presas did ground & Remy was not tought by him.


 
What does the above mean?



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> Ernesto was as I.



Are you saying that you and Ernesto were taught the same? And both of you were taught by Jose?



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> I have the classs photo 1980 & I was there & Bruce Jutchnick was a Sacramento student as was Pallen Who was not in the class picture.



I have a photo with Chris Judge of StarGate 1, this does not mean I have trained with the Jaffa or even appeard in an episode of SG1. 

I have heard of Bruce and Pallen, but never really heard or saw of you. 



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> The 80 shot shows me REmy & Ernesto  teaching as 1 art-1 line for a bit,



Are you saying you taught in 1980 before you had your certs as you states those were in 1981? 




			
				monkey said:
			
		

> Then they parted.



Yes they did. While GM Remy may have been mad or upset with his brother he would not allow others to talk bad about his brother GM Ernesto. So they were family, no one doubts that. 

Your real point is?




			
				monkey said:
			
		

> Is that in the notes Id like a copy of them Ill resipacate & send back a dvd of the original class (some) Juchnick not in video) But I am doing lots of standing to ground.Now as I take it for the site most are off the Presas line in 1 way or another & lots of jkd people talking of concepts.I have to defend-suport-correct-question-stipulate ect of the arts of my teachers when some thing is good-great or forgotten!im not here to debate or judge or maintain or even claim rites to.I am just asking things most should know but seem not to in 1 way or other.interesting delema.


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## Phadrus00 (May 18, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I have a photo with Chris Judge of StarGate 1, this does not mean I have trained with the Jaffa or even appeard in an episode of SG1.


 
WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Rich you mean that 3 DVD Set of you teaching Kelna'rim is Bogus!  Ohh man!  And I suppose the mail order Symbiote thing is bogus too!  Oh my day is ruined!  *evil grin*

Rob


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

There are probly lots you never herd of that have master ranks from the early days like Ed Farris to name 1.How do you know what went on if you werent there.I was tought private by Jose presas as well ernesto had private time.I had time with Ernesto as well as Remy private.You were not at the privates Warden took or others.But the class photo exsist & I see you failed to bring up the fact my rank was published & shown nationaly (signed & dated by Remy 1981)Master & Guardian of Kuntao arnis & Dr.  Barbar  stated it.Funny how you left that blup out.


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## Phadrus00 (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> There are probly lots you never herd of that have master ranks from the early days like Ed Farris to name 1.How do you know what went on if you werent there.I was tought private by Jose presas as well ernesto had private time.I had time with Ernesto as well as Remy private.You were not at the privates Warden took or others.But the class photo exsist & I see you failed to bring up the fact my rank was published & shown nationaly (signed & dated by Remy 1981)Master & Guardian of Kuntao arnis & Dr. Barbar stated it.Funny how you left that blup out.


 
Monkey,

You sent me a private message earlier today and I thought it prudent to respond to that here in the forum because I suspect that you may have sent similar messages to other members.  Not that that is a bad thing but I thought it would benefit us all to address what seems to be emerging here on this thread and some others.

First of all let me state that this is a community of people who all love and train in the Arts and although we may study many different arts we all share a passion for them and a respect for accomplished practitioners and instructors.  In the short time I have been here on the forum I have been VERY impressed with the caliber and knowledge of the people I have met.  I write this note in appreciation to that community and hope that you take this posting in the same spirit.

It would seem that Rich has taken point on verifying your claims as to your background and status.  Given the scope of your claims I think that is prudent for the community.  You might be an incredible Martial Arts find or you might be a complete charlatan.  I have yet to form an opinion either way and frankly am willing to wait for the preponderance of the evidence in the forms of certificates, historical notes, etc.  We have a very broad and rich group here and I suspect it will be relatively easy to verify claims if they are indeed true.  I would recoomend that you not take this process personally, or feel offended.  You have claimed to have trained and TAUGHT WITH some of the biggest names in the Filipino and JKD Communities and those claims are not accepted without some healthy skepticism.

I sincerely hope that you have done all that you have claimed to have done because it will mean that you have a wealth of information and perspective to offer to this community.   I would encourage you post any scans or copies of documents that can support your lineage as I think it would make us all more inclined to accept your background.

Regards,
Rob Masson


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## Rocky (May 18, 2006)

Not all FMA people are the same, anyone who trained with me back in the 80's know that I reguired a min of 6 months worth of Ground fighting before you could be an instructor, this was long before the BJJ craze. Of course most of my Ground fighting comes from my fathers blend of Ukrainian Grappling, Catch Wrestling and Judo, I just incorperated into my FMA.


However Remy use to coach Wrestling for a while back in Manilla, and he played in Judo with my father all the time, so I don't know why he never showed much to his students, but Professor was like that he kept a lot to himself I think it had to do with what he was trying to achieve and the fact that he never stayed to long at any one place and Ground fighting to be proficiant ( if its not you main thing ) is hard to pass along in a seminar.

Rocky

  Playing tag as a kid at my house was tough.....I was always it and my Dad always drove the Station Wagon!


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## Marvin (May 18, 2006)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Not all FMA people are the same, anyone who trained with me back in the 80's know that I reguired a min of 6 months worth of Ground fighting before you could be an instructor, this was long before the BJJ craze. Of course most of my Ground fighting comes from my fathers blend of Ukrainian Grappling, Catch Wrestling and Judo, I just incorperated into my FMA.
> 
> 
> However Remy use to coach Wrestling for a while back in Manilla, and he played in Judo with my father all the time, so I don't know why he never showed much to his students, but Professor was like that he kept a lot to himself I think it had to do with what he was trying to achieve and the fact that he never stayed to long at any one place and Ground fighting to be proficiant ( if its not you main thing ) is hard to pass along in a seminar.
> ...


 
Hi Rocky, he stayed with you quite a bit back in the day, did he give you any tidbits or pass anything on to you?
Thanks
Marvin


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## Rocky (May 18, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Hi Rocky, he stayed with you quite a bit back in the day, did he give you any tidbits or pass anything on to you?
> Thanks
> Marvin


 
Like I said he an my dad use to do lots of rolling, they would show me and sometime my friend Miguel Balboa some stuff, mostly escapes and joint manipulation to get back to our feet, He always said " Beware of the Blade" In other words in a real fight, especially in the Philipines if you wanna go to the ground and play hump your opponents leg he will probablly gut you like a fish!! Its weird how martial arts go, my father was a catch fighter so I have always tried to preach the value of ground fighting, but because catch fighting is just about the most violent along with Ukrainian Wrestling, gound fighting I have seen to date, I was always tought to get back to your feet as quickly as possible. Then when Remy would do a little dumog with us, he reafirmed the importants of getting back to you feet, and let me tell you I was at one of GM Gaji seminars where he did ground work, and that man will perform an apendectomy on your A$$ from the ground.

 One time Remy and my dad were messing around in our living room with some Judo/Wrestling moves and they broke a lamp.. My dad new enough to get the hell out of Dodge...Remy wasn't smart enough he tried to reason with my mom....well she smacked him upside the head with the T.V guide about 3 times... he ran like hell...and he and my dad and I went out for Ice Cream.....My dad and Remy could pound down the Ice Cream.....even thought it would mess Remys stomach up sometimes....they loved Ice Cream

At any rate Remy called it Dumog I don't know really where he got it from, but he knew what he had to do on the ground, he obviously was no Gracie or anything like t hat but he knew what he had to...


Rocky


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## Marvin (May 18, 2006)

Great story Rocky!
Thanks for the insights!
What is Ukrainian wrestling like? The picture I have in my mind is a Greco/Roman type style. Lot of bodylocks, etc.
Marvin


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

For information on Tom Carnes go to      http://video.google.com/videoplay?do..408066301840   there will be 4 thred go to the 4th thred & see the history of many ranked early people you might not know of & even Tom Carnes & his rank & the authentic dvds.


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## Marvin (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> For information on Tom Carnes go to http://video.google.com/videoplay?do..408066301840 there will be 4 thred go to the 4th thred & see the history of many ranked early people you might not know of & even Tom Carnes & his rank & the authentic dvds.


I think u posted on the wrong thread.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 18, 2006)

You can translate that?


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> There are probly lots you never herd of that have master ranks from the early days like Ed Farris to name 1.How do you know what went on if you werent there.I was tought private by Jose presas as well ernesto had private time.I had time with Ernesto as well as Remy private.You were not at the privates Warden took or others.But the class photo exsist & I see you failed to bring up the fact my rank was published & shown nationaly (signed & dated by Remy 1981)Master & Guardian of Kuntao arnis & Dr. Barbar stated it.Funny how you left that blup out.




Monkey aka Tom Carnes,

I never said you were not there. You said some people were not there and that you had not seen these people. So I used your own words against you in your arguement. You did nto see the point. You do not grasp the finer details of the written language. That is fine for that does not mean one cannot be a good Martial Artist and unable to communciate as well. 

I just find it hard to read what you write.

You ramble and are all over the place.

You sentence structure and such make it almost impossible to understand you at goos times and impossible at others. 

In one thread you mentioned you did not have your glasses on. Well if this is an issue then always have your glasses on when you post. 

If you are trying to gain respect by throwing names and ranks and titles around then you will not find it here. If you have knowledge and share it then it adds value to those titles and ranks. 

So, post and post well, but do not think we know what is going on in your mind. We are not mind readers, we cannot see your face or read your lips. Go slow and type out what you want and even proof read it to make sure it says what you want it to say. This will go a long way to making your point what ever it may be.


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

yes I have slowed my typing donwn & the thoughts so It Will be clear.Go to http://republika.pl/modernarnis/mode...alifornia.html  this should help a bit.


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## MJS (May 19, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> yes I have slowed my typing donwn & the thoughts so It Will be clear.Go to http://republika.pl/modernarnis/mode...alifornia.html this should help a bit.


 
Well, unless I'm doing something wrong, it didn't help me, considering the site is not in English.

Mike


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## Marvin (May 19, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> yes I have slowed my typing donwn & the thoughts so It Will be clear.Go to http://republika.pl/modernarnis/mode...alifornia.html this should help a bit.


That link was to a non-existent page written in Polish or Czech.
I believe Mr. Monkey is funning with you, gentlemen.


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## Rich Parsons (May 19, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> yes I have slowed my typing donwn & the thoughts so It Will be clear.Go to http://republika.pl/modernarnis/mode...alifornia.html  this should help a bit.



Monkey,

This is the second link you have provided that is dead. 

Nice joke. 

Just wish I could get your sense of humor.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 19, 2006)

There is a typo in the link.
Try here: http://republika.pl/modernarnis/e_index.htm
It's the english version.
Mr. Carnes is listed as the California Representative for the Modern Arnis International Ju-Jitsu Karate Association.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 19, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Monkey,
> 
> This is the second link you have provided that is dead.
> 
> ...


I don't think it was intentional folks.


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## Rich Parsons (May 19, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> There is a typo in the link.
> Try here: http://republika.pl/modernarnis/e_index.htm
> It's the english version.
> Mr. Carnes is listed as the California Representative for the Modern Arnis International Ju-Jitsu Karate Association.




Gee There is no rep for Michigan. I can sign for a fee and be registered as the Michigan Representative. 

The latest update I found was 2001, which is the year the GM Remy Died.

Many of the pages were dated 1998. 

This website had infomration from Delaney and also IMAF Schea and others as well. 

It still listed GM Presas as if he was alive. 

Also this was more of a group thing for the Big Three (* Modern Arnis - Presas / Ju-Jitsu - Walley Jay / Karate - Dillman *)

Not sure I would trust this site, unless some other people stepped up and explained it to me.


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## Marvin (May 19, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Monkey aka Tom Carnes,
> 
> I never said you were not there. You said some people were not there and that you had not seen these people. So I used your own words against you in your arguement. You did nto see the point. You do not grasp the finer details of the written language. That is fine for that does not mean one cannot be a good Martial Artist and unable to communciate as well.
> 
> ...


 
If it is a language problem, what is your native language? If it is something faily common maybe someone has access to a person who is a translator. 

Si es español puedo ayudar.
¿Si es un problema de la lengua, cuál es su lengua materna? Si es algo faily campo común quizá alguien puede ayudar a traducir.


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## Marvin (May 19, 2006)

Actually, lets put this thread back on track?

Rocky, we were speaking of Ukrainian wrestling...


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## Cruentus (May 19, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Actually, lets put this thread back on track?
> 
> Rocky, we were speaking of Ukrainian wrestling...


 
I do Irish wrestling....it involves a lot of drinking and face punching.


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## Rich Parsons (May 19, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I do Irish wrestling....it involves a lot of drinking and face punching.



You said something about scottish kilts as well. 

******

Yes Ground Fighting:

I agree with what Rocky said and the comments about be aware of the improvised weapon or hidden weapon. Also to get back up ASAP to avoid his friends joining in and or getting pinned.


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## Marvin (May 19, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> ******
> 
> Yes Ground Fighting:
> 
> I agree with what Rocky said and the comments about be aware of the improvised weapon or hidden weapon. Also to get back up ASAP to avoid his friends joining in and or getting pinned.


 
Yes, those are good tactics whatever you are stading or on the ground. But I was looking for particular flavor of the style, for example in greco, all takedowns are above the waist, knee can't touch, work for double unders etc. Or BJJ, mount, guard etc.


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## Marvin (May 19, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I do Irish wrestling....it involves a lot of drinking and face punching.


 
Paul, we have a similar famly grappling style called "Drunken Beer-bellied Wrestling" :drinkbeer :boxing:


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## Rich Parsons (May 19, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Yes, those are good tactics whatever you are stading or on the ground. But I was looking for particular flavor of the style, for example in greco, all takedowns are above the waist, knee can't touch, work for double unders etc. Or BJJ, mount, guard etc.


 
As to Rocky's Family I cannot speak.

As to GM Remy Presas, I would have to say lots of Judo like moves including sweeps of the feet and also knee take downs. That was the feel I best can describe after a 12 hour day.


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