# Knife Defense Clip



## MJS (Sep 19, 2006)

This clip was posted in the Kenpo section, but I thought I'd post it here to get some feedback from those that don't read that section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_6nQT89vQ&mode=related&search

I thought we could discuss the methods of defense that the people are using, as well as the nature of the attack with the knife. 

Mike


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## jenngibbs2000 (Sep 19, 2006)

HI -- watched the clip when you posted it in the Kempo/Kenpo section.  The most troubling part is that the attackee never makes an attempt to control the knife hand.  He appears to be consumed with grappling rather than controlling the wrist and is therefore "stabbed" many, many times before the action stops.  The best part is that after failing miserably to protect himself the "instructor" praises him...hilarious! 

jennifer


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## MJS (Sep 19, 2006)

jenngibbs2000 said:


> HI -- watched the clip when you posted it in the Kempo/Kenpo section. The most troubling part is that the attackee never makes an attempt to control the knife hand. He appears to be consumed with grappling rather than controlling the wrist and is therefore "stabbed" many, many times before the action stops. The best part is that after failing miserably to protect himself the "instructor" praises him...hilarious!
> 
> jennifer


 
Hey Jen,

Yes, your thoughts are spot on with what others have said regarding the control of the weapon hand.  There are a few different areas on the clip, where the defender is doing more of a bearhug on the attacker, getting stabbed a number of times.  I realize that they're trying to gear the training to be more 'alive' but at the same time, although they're using a training blade, it seems that they're not too concerned with the hits that are getting in.

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 19, 2006)

jenngibbs2000 said:


> HI -- watched the clip when you posted it in the Kempo/Kenpo section. The most troubling part is that the attackee never makes an attempt to control the knife hand. He appears to be consumed with grappling rather than controlling the wrist and is therefore "stabbed" many, many times before the action stops. The best part is that after failing miserably to protect himself the "instructor" praises him...hilarious!
> 
> jennifer


 
Wow.  Can I say "Deja Vu" Mike S.? LOL


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 19, 2006)

This video illustrates the important point of if you cannot immediately get away or create space to access a tool then you need to control that knife hand to minimize your risk of being stabbed repeatedly like the gentleman in the video were.


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## Mcura (Sep 19, 2006)

I couldn't help but notice that the stabbing was inelegant, repetitive, none-artistic, and brutal.  In other words, it's not what is normally rehearsed in most martial-arts classes.  I found it sobering.

While it's true that the participants didn't immediately control the knife hand (and got perforated) at least they were doing *something*.  Now they have some idea of what to expect, and so will anyone viewing that clip, if an actual knife encounter takes place.

My immediate reaction was this was an example of what not to do.  However, I spoke too soon.  There are other videos that are posted by this person/club.  I'll have to view them all before I make any decision.

That'll teach me to review all the facts before I shoot off my big mouth.


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## arnisador (Sep 19, 2006)

Mcura said:


> While it's true that the participants didn't immediately control the knife hand (and got perforated) at least they were doing *something*.



This is a good point. Controlling is great...but it ain't always easy. At least they were moving. There are many non-martial artists who have survived knifings, albeit with serious wounds, because they _didn't stop fighting_. It's no guarantee, of course, but it does help.


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## trueaspirer (Sep 19, 2006)

It seemed the the attacker wasn't really trying.


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## Brad Dunne (Sep 19, 2006)

Some sobering reality, but somewhat perplexing on the training. The one on one encounters, the defender was intent on trying to stop the knife arm, which is understandable, but he did not realize that the attacker was giving him his other side. Notice the position of the attacker.......He leads with his left side and angles his body to shield the knife. This allows the defender to attack that side of the body and perhaps stop the attack, at least in a much more advantagous position than what he was doing. As for the two person attack, the defender made no attempt, that I could see, to put the unarmed attacker between him and the knife welding attacker. The only sure fired thing I saw was when the defender ran........My personal first choice. Just a couple of observations, that I understand may fall into a different training curriculum then the one I studied. Either way, it showed that defending against a knife is not as easy as some folks would like us to believe.


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## pstarr (Sep 19, 2006)

It seemed to me that after he was pushed, the victim immediately jumped back towards the aggressor and exposed himself to more serious attack.  Moreover, the victim came in with grappling maneuvers.

I would think it would be better to back off after the initial push, thereby creating a defense perimeter before you (the victim) determines the true nature of the attack.

Additionally, most scumbags who carry knives pull them and flash them visibly to scare the victim.  This fellow just went straight to work which is, I feel, very unlikely.  I know because I've been there, done that.

You're right; it's a good example of what not to do...


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## MJS (Sep 19, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Wow. Can I say "Deja Vu" Mike S.? LOL


 
LOL, I was thinking the same exact thing!


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## MJS (Sep 19, 2006)

Great replies here! 

I'd be interested to hear how everyone trains this type of attack.  Many of the 'attacks' that we saw in the clip, are similar to the shankings that are typical in a prison/jail type setting.  

IMO, and as others have said on the Kenpo portion of this, is to pretty much attack the attack, while counter attacking with strikes of our own.  

Thoughts?


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## KenpoTex (Sep 20, 2006)

MJS said:


> Great replies here!
> 
> I'd be interested to hear how everyone trains this type of attack. Many of the 'attacks' that we saw in the clip, are similar to the shankings that are typical in a prison/jail type setting.
> 
> ...


As far as defending against this type of attack (which, IMO is more realistic than the attacks for which many MA techniques are geared) I like the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel.  It is specifically designed to deal with the rapid-fire "shanking" attacks like the ones in the video.


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## samurai69 (Sep 20, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> As far as defending against this type of attack (which, IMO is more realistic than the attacks for which many MA techniques are geared) I like the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel. It is specifically designed to deal with the rapid-fire "shanking" attacks like the ones in the video.


 

Well could you elaborate on *the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel*


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## arnisador (Sep 20, 2006)

samurai69 said:


> Well could you elaborate on *the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel*



Yes, I'm curious too!


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## Flatlander (Sep 20, 2006)

Just a comment:  I agree that there should have been more attempt to control the weapon hand, but in all honesty, the quality of the video on my computer was such that is was very difficult to get a good look at the intricacies of what was going on.  It did appear though that the attacker was scoring quite a few.  At least, however, the quality of the scenario was good: outside of the dojo, on the pavement, brick walls around, etc. They threw in multiple attackers, the attacks were vicious and brutal.  I think that this was, at the very minimum, a reasonable starting point for situational training.


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## Garth Barnard (Sep 20, 2006)

Firstly, Clive is a good guy and really does know his stuff. He's no slouch and his training is very tough. Clive has forgotten more about SD than most people know!

The clip is a clip. It's served it's purpose by getting everyone's attention and making everyone think about how good their own training is and how you might defencd yourself from a knife attack.

Don't get too hung-up on who did what in the clip, instead, watch how easy it is to get cut and how hard it is to defend from a knife attack.

Watch and think, that's what the clip is for, in my opinion.

And remember, in a knife attack, expect to get cut and deal with the attacker with vehemence.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 20, 2006)

samurai69 said:


> Well could you elaborate on *the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel*


It's a method that, as I said, is designed to deal with the type of attack that we saw in the video-clip. The basic principles are jam the attack to immobilize the arm holding the knife, transition to a position from which you can control the arm, and beat the guy 'till he drops the knife. 

There are two techniqes taught to initially immobilze the arm. The first one is to basically pin his arm against his own body. This serves to slow his motion to the point where you can get a firm grasp on his wrist. The second technique is referred to as "the dive." In this technique you basically wedge your arms in between his knife-arm and his body, and then hug his arm to your chest (think of having "underhooks" on his arm"). Once again, from here you're ready to transition to the next position. Both of these techniques depend heavily on aggression and forward drive.

The second or transitory position is referred to as the baseball-bat grip. Basically you grab his wrist with both hands and drive down, locking your arms, and putting you're weight over the knife by leaning forward. This serves to keep him from being able to continue to stab since he now has to lift all your weight in addition to fighting your strength.

The third position is the control position. The technique that is taught is referred to as the 2-on-1. It's basically an arm-bar where you're standing next to him, your right hand (for someone with the knife in his right) is still grabbing his wrist, and your left hand comes up under his arm-pit and grabs his shoulder. In this technique, your chest provides the fulcrum for the lock. 
I personally prefer a slightly different position. I use the arm-pit trap (also an arm-bar technique) where you have his upper arm trapped under your arm. I like this position because it makes it easier to control his position. By simply squatting down a little, you can drive him right into the floor.


So, that's the best description I can give. It's a little hard to envision some of this because it's such an agressive, dynamic technique. However, after training it at full speed/full contact with a partner, I've become very confident that it will be effective while minimizing the injuries. I highly recommend this method.

Here's a link to the site you y'all can check out the videos
http://centerlinegym.com/gym_gear.htm


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## MJS (Sep 21, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> As far as defending against this type of attack (which, IMO is more realistic than the attacks for which many MA techniques are geared) I like the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel. It is specifically designed to deal with the rapid-fire "shanking" attacks like the ones in the video.


 
Yes, you and I have talked about those tapes as well as Karl Tanswell, on here before.  I'm certainly not disputing the effectiveness of the method, just saying that it seemed to me anyways, that there were a few times in the clip in which the defender seemed more occupied with grappling, than gaining control of the weapon arm and counterstriking.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 21, 2006)

MJS said:


> Yes, you and I have talked about those tapes as well as Karl Tanswell, on here before. I'm certainly not disputing the effectiveness of the method, just saying that it seemed to me anyways, that there were a few times in the clip in which the defender seemed more occupied with grappling, than gaining control of the weapon arm and counterstriking.


I agree


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## Garth Barnard (Sep 22, 2006)

MJS said:


> .....as well as Karl Tanswell, on here before.....


 
I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.


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## samurai69 (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.


 

Yeh, I would be interested


I saw a den martin clip the other day wher he grabs the knife arm with both hands and locks it into the (safe triangle), then knees the guty shouting "drop the knife".................or similar

I like that first part when there is a frenzied stab attack

similar to



> The second or transitory position is referred to as the baseball-bat grip. Basically you grab his wrist with both hands and drive down, locking your arms, and putting you're weight over the knife by leaning forward. This serves to keep him from being able to continue to stab since he now has to lift all your weight in addition to fighting your strength.


 

I would sooner be hit a couple of times rather than being stabbed once, so i like the idea of stopping/trapping the knife arm

.


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## MJS (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.


 
Yes, I'd be very interested in hearing a review! 

Mike


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## Garth Barnard (Sep 22, 2006)

Cool, I'll report back.



samurai69 said:


> I saw a den martin clip the other day wher he grabs the knife arm with both hands and locks it into the (safe triangle), then knees the guy shouting "drop the knife".................or similar


 
I studied the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm under Dennis Martin a couple of years ago on Dennis Martin's CQB Hard Skills Program. The G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm came from a guy called Gary Klugiewicz. It's a simple and effective way of disarming someone with an edged weapon, which I have included within my Acadamy syllabus. I'm not sure the G.U.N. is the best edged weapon disarm, hence why I'm going to train under Karl Tanswell, but it's the best I've come across to date.


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## MJS (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> Cool, I'll report back.
> 
> 
> 
> I studied the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm under Dennis Martin a couple of years ago on Dennis Martin's CQB Hard Skills Program. The G.U.N. Edged Weapon Disarm came from a guy called Gary Klugiewicz. It's a simple and effective way of disarming someone with an edged weapon, which I have included within my Acadamy syllabus. I'm not sure the G.U.N. is the best edged weapon disarm, hence why I'm going to train under Karl Tanswell, but it's the best I've come across to date.


 
Am I safe to assume that what you're describing is the same as what samurai69 said?  Could you expand on this a bit further?

Thanks


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## KenpoTex (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.


please do, I'm ALWAYS interested in new info. and options.


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## arnisador (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> I'll be training with Karl Tanswell (going through his S.T.A.B. system) in November and will return with a review if anyone is interested.



Yes, definitely! It's good to hear these new ideas.


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## Garth Barnard (Sep 22, 2006)

MJS said:


> Am I safe to assume that what you're describing is the same as what samurai69 said? Could you expand on this a bit further?


 
Hmmm, I could show you the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence in a matter of minutes, but to explain it could be tough.  Ok, here goes.....

On seeing an edged weapon the defender shouts loudly, "Knife!", whether it's a knife or not.  The 'shout' informs the aggressor that you've seen it and also acts as a warning to all those around you.  

**From now on I will describe the G.U.N. defence, defending from a knife**

When the knife is thrust towards you, either as a straight thrust/lunge/stab with a standard grip, or a downwards with a reverse/'ice pick' grip, the knife hand/wirst is grabbed using a 'Butterfly' grip, thumbs over-lapping. (imagine using your hands to produce a shadow of a butterfly on a wall)
The aggressor will have a straight arm, and both of your arms will be straight at this point while you grip the aggressors wrist/lower forearm.  A slight side-step may be needed.  This part of the defence is the '*G*', for *G*rab.

Next, bring both of your elbows into your mid-section.  This is called '_Indexing_' or '_to Index_'.  In this position your arms are bent, elbows into your ribs, forearms extended gripping the aggressors lower forearm/wrist.  In doing so you are in a strong position and the aggressor is unable to thrust or pull back for another attempt (hopefully).

Once '_Indexed_', and fixed, the aggressor is pummled with knee strikes.  On each knee strike the defender shouts "*Drop-the-knife*".  This is done like so.....simultaenously.....

"*Drop*" - _knee strike_, "*the*" - _knee strike_, "*knife*" - _knee strike_, and-so-on-and-so-on, until the aggressor drops the knife.  This is the '*U*' part, standing for *U*narm.

Once the aggressor has dropped the knife, then he/she is 'finished off' with finishing blows until he/she is no longer a threat.  This part, the '*N*', stands for *N*eutralise.

As I said, it would be far easier to show than describe.

So, in short.....

*G* - Grab  (Index)
*U* - Unarm
*N* - Neutralise

It works very well, but it also has it's limitations, but don't they all?!


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## samurai69 (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> Hmmm, I could show you the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence in a matter of minutes, but to explain it could be tough. Ok, here goes.....
> 
> On seeing an edged weapon the defender shouts loudly, "Knife!", whether it's a knife or not. The 'shout' informs the aggressor that you've seen it and also acts as a warning to all those around you.
> 
> ...


 

great description..........



.what do you think the limitations of this are.........


After recent events both here and in Uk i am particularly interested in knife defence


.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 22, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> Next, bring both of your elbows into your mid-section. This is called '_Indexing_' or '_to Index_'. In this position your arms are bent, elbows into your ribs, forearms extended gripping the aggressors lower forearm/wrist. In doing so you are in a strong position and the aggressor is unable to thrust or pull back for another attempt (hopefully).


I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing this part.  If your elbows are bent, doesn't that put the blade pretty close to your midsection?  Maybe I'm just not "seeing" it correctly.  That's one thing I really like about the baseball grip in RedZone, when you're elbows are locked, it's very difficult for the attacker to get you.


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## samurai69 (Sep 22, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing this part. If your elbows are bent, doesn't that put the blade pretty close to your midsection? Maybe I'm just not "seeing" it correctly. That's one thing I really like about the baseball grip in RedZone, when you're elbows are locked, it's very difficult for the attacker to get you.


 

Yeh it does, but unless its a machette, its far enough away and locked in


.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2006)

Its because of situations like this that I think that unarmed knife defense against a committed attacker is probably a long shot.  Especially, if the attacker has any sort of training.  My feeling is that attempting to control the weapon arm only keeps you in the danger zone longer.  I think that if you can keep the knife off your vitals, do something to create an opening, and escape, you have a much greater chance for survival.

This clip, IMHO, demonstrates that going "toe to toe" with someone with a knife is perhaps the worst thing you can do.

Here is a couple of things that I remind myself, in regards to knife defense, as far as my personal training goes...

Stay healthy.  Learn how to run really fast.  Strike fast and hard.  Get the hell out of there.


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## bujuts (Sep 22, 2006)

MJS said:


> IMO, and as others have said on the Kenpo portion of this, is to pretty much attack the attack, while counter attacking with strikes of our own.
> 
> Thoughts?



Yup.  I say hit the SOB all sorts of hard.  

Salute,

Steven Brown


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## Garth Barnard (Sep 23, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:


> This clip, IMHO, demonstrates that going "toe to toe" with someone with a knife is perhaps the worst thing you can do.


Going toe-to-toe with someone who has a knife is, IMHO, a worse case scenario, but remember, going toe-to-toe with a kife weilding aggressor isn't always _your_ choice.  

I've been in 3 edged weapon attacks and luckily escaped without injury with each one, though it was more a case of luck than judgement.  It all happens sooooo fast, believe me.  And fighting for your life isn't an exact science either!  One thing for sure, "_*Go Foetal = Go fatal!*_"



kenpotex said:


> I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing this part. If your elbows are bent, doesn't that put the blade pretty close to your midsection? Maybe I'm just not "seeing" it correctly. That's one thing I really like about the baseball grip in RedZone, when you're elbows are locked, it's very difficult for the attacker to get you.


 
Samurai69 has pretty much nailed it.  When the knife is thrust towards your mid-section you thrust your hips back as you grab their wrist.  As you index do a slight side-step so that you are 'bladed' at  45 degrees to your opponent.  The knife shouldn't be pointing towards your belly-button, but off past your hip, towards a safe area.  You need to do this to be able to deliver knee strikes, otherwise you'll pull yourself onto the knife.

I hope all that makes sense.

The weaknesses I've found with the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence are that it's very hard on the thumbs, especially from a downward knife attack with a revers grip.  I've dislocated both thumbs doing the G.U.N. Defence when pressure testing it.

Also, I've found that the Butterfly grip has to be modified when up against thick clothing, compared to a sweaty/slippery forearm, for example.  The problem with that is, in a 'real go' you only get one chance.  You can't ask the attacker to have another go because you got it wrong the first time.  

And in low-light, it's difficult to see a flailing wrist/forearm.  The Butteryfly Grip is quite a 'specific' type of grip, if you understand what I'm saying.


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## samurai69 (Sep 23, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> Going toe-to-toe with someone who has a knife is, IMHO, a worse case scenario, but remember, going toe-to-toe with a kife weilding aggressor isn't always _your_ choice.
> 
> I've been in 3 edged weapon attacks and luckily escaped without injury with each one, though it was more a case of luck than judgement. It all happens sooooo fast, believe me. And fighting for your life isn't an exact science either! One thing for sure, "_*Go Foetal = Go fatal!*_"
> 
> .


 
Luckily (if you can call it luck) I have only had the threat of/with a knife.....in the past and that was 20+ years ago..............but in the last 4 months i have had the threat of a knife being pulled 2 times (and its not like i am looking for trouble).....there seems to be a growing trend for knife carrying here in portugal too




.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 23, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> Samurai69 has pretty much nailed it. When the knife is thrust towards your mid-section you thrust your hips back as you grab their wrist. As you index do a slight side-step so that you are 'bladed' at 45 degrees to your opponent. The knife shouldn't be pointing towards your belly-button, but off past your hip, towards a safe area. You need to do this to be able to deliver knee strikes, otherwise you'll pull yourself onto the knife.
> 
> I hope all that makes sense.


That makes sense, thanks for the clarification.


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## arnisador (Sep 23, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> One thing for sure, "_*Go Foetal = Go fatal!*_"


 
Well...on the other hand, sometimes the initial attack wounds a person severely enough that survival is the only goal. To take the fetal position is a last resort, when both escape and defense are no longer possible...but people _do _survive sometimes. The attack is interrupted, the assailant believes his opponent dead, etc. When all else fails, protect the center mass as best as possible. People have survived horrendous attacks.



> The weaknesses I've found with the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence are that it's very hard on the thumbs, especially from a downward knife attack with a revers grip.  I've dislocated both thumbs doing the G.U.N. Defence when pressure testing it.



I like to use this grip against a dedicated attack--as opposed to the uncommitted defang-the-snake type attacks--and I too have found it hard on the thumbs. Thankfully, no dislocations yet.


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## MJS (Sep 23, 2006)

Garth Barnard said:


> Hmmm, I could show you the G.U.N. Edged Weapon Defence in a matter of minutes, but to explain it could be tough. Ok, here goes.....
> 
> On seeing an edged weapon the defender shouts loudly, "Knife!", whether it's a knife or not. The 'shout' informs the aggressor that you've seen it and also acts as a warning to all those around you.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for a well thought out reply!   This is certainly something that can be worked in very well with the other defenses that were already mentioned.

Mike


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## Garth Barnard (Sep 24, 2006)

Hi Arnisador,



arnisador said:


> ....To take the fetal position is a last resort, when both escape and defense are no longer possible...but people _do _survive sometimes.... quote]
> I don't dispute that, but I'm not prepared to take the chance of assuming the Feotal position in an Edged Weapon Attack, or any other form of physical attack for that matter, it's just not in me, I'll fight until I'm unconscious or dead.
> Now, I'm no expert, but from my own experiences, and from lengthly research into knife attacks, I can say that in the majority of cases where the victim of the attack assumed the Foetal position it did NOT stop the attacker inflicting more wounds.
> 
> ...


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