# Thoughts On This Clip?



## MJS (Aug 13, 2007)

While surfing Youtube, I came across this clip.  Its of a LEO struggling, for what seems like an eternity, with a suspect he is attempting to place under arrest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGMgCk7Y5Ok&eurl=

I know that we've had threads on here about getting involved, however, I'm surprised that no help came until the very end of the clip.  Even if nobody actually went to physically help the officer, calling 911 would be a start.  The majority of the time, the officers where I work will always call out their location and I make it a habit to check on their status.  They have a panic alarm on their portable radios, so even if they're not able to physically talk to me, at least I know a) their location and b) if they are in need of help, I'll know where to send it.  

So, thoughts on this?  I'm especially interested in hearing from the LEOs that we have here on this forum.  Would you have done anything differently?


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 13, 2007)

Well, he got the bad guy and went home none the worse for wear so I cant say too much bad.

The only thought I had was that he had the opportunity a few times to disengage and back off. Perhaps deploy a baton, radio for help, something. It was obvious that the guy wasnt going to go easy. Hell let him run and follow him till back-up arrives if thats what it took. Better a car thief get away than a cop get killed with his own gun trying to arrest him I say.

But with the juices flowing and people watching that probably didnt enter his mind.


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 13, 2007)

It looked like the officer did a pretty good job of keeping his own weapon accounted for, I only saw one instance where he had his weapon side to the attacker. Of course then the man went for his gun, but the officer was able to keep it under control.

As far as civilians helping, I think most people don't have any idea of what to do. Many would be too afraid to even approach as they don't have the training on how to deal with violence of any nature, many would be afraid of interfering with an arrest etc.

I think myself I would have loudly asked the police officer if he needed assistance (ie call someone, or help in subduing the attacker etc).

I did find the use of jujitsu nice, the attempted head and arm (forgot that one's name) then the 'guillotine' choke later.

I found the officer's 'head down' posture to be interesting, is there reasoning behind that?


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 13, 2007)

I've seen a few clips of LEOs in "physical confrontations" with suspects. When ever someone tries to entervine one of two things happens:
A, The cop orders the bystandard to back off, and stay out of it.
2, the cop is near dead, and would die if not for the entervention. 
My geuss is the people around at the time figured that the cops didn't want their help.


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## jks9199 (Aug 13, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> I've seen a few clips of LEOs in "physical confrontations" with suspects. When ever someone tries to entervine one of two things happens:
> A, The cop orders the bystandard to back off, and stay out of it.
> 2, the cop is near dead, and would die if not for the entervention.
> My geuss is the people around at the time figured that the cops didn't want their help.


 
Let me give you a cop's take on the video, first -- and then on CoungNhuka's comments above. This is one cop's opinion, it's not meant to represent any sort of official guidance.

You see a single cop getting his *** kicked, at the very ****ing minimum CALL 911 and tell them!  If you are able -- JOIN THE ****ING FIGHT!!!

In a FUBAR like this... I don't care where the help comes from.  I don't care if, under any other circumstances, I'd be arresting your ***.  I'm trying to get home to my family at the end of the shift.  HELP!  At the very minimum, let my brothers and sisters on the job know I'm in trouble by calling 911.  Hell -- get in my car and yell over the damn radio that I'm in trouble...  I don't care.

Now...  I think I've made my opinion clear on one sort of situation.  CoungNuhka brings up a few others...

First...  If I'm dealing with a situation, I don't need well-intentioned passerby trying to "help."  If I've got several colleagues helping me -- I need a passerby even less.  Some idiot pushing their nose into our business may be just the distraction the suspect is waiting for, or it may push the suspect over the line.  We'll go from a halfway controlled situation to hell...  Same thing goes when you walk up to me as I'm talking to several bangers, announce that you're president of the neighborhood watch and have every episode of Dragnet (radio & TV & movie) memorized, and watch CHIPS in place of going to church...  I'm likely to be less than polite in informing you I'm busy.  (I'm not even going to describe what my answer will be if you walk up to me when I'm covering someone with my gun out and ask for directions...  The chief will handle the complaint the next day.  And it has happened, to more than one officer.)  Even if I'm having a little trouble controlling someone, but I'm not getting my *** kicked...  Stay back.  Make a phone call.  But I don't know who the guy joining in is; I don't know who you're trying to help, and I don't want to have to worry about your safety as well as my own.

But... If I'm getting my *** kicked... See the start of my reply!  Just realize that when more cops arrive, you're probably going to be treated like another suspect until they know what's going on.  Don't take it personally; it even happens to plainclothes cops.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 13, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> You see a single cop getting his *** kicked, at the very ****ing minimum CALL 911 and tell them!  If you are able -- JOIN THE ****ING FIGHT!!!


Check.



> In a *FUBAR *like this... I don't care where the help comes from.  I don't care if, under any other circumstances, I'd be arresting your ***.  I'm trying to get home to my family at the end of the shift.  HELP!  At the very minimum, let my brothers and sisters on the job know I'm in trouble by calling 911.  _*Hell -- get in my car and yell over the damn radio that I'm in trouble...  I don't care*_.


Check. And I gotta agree this _was _a FUBAR--I thought the Sarge did an excellent job given that this guy was high on either man-made chemicals or adrenaline (maced twice, kneed in the groin to no effect, head butted and nose smashed, all to no avail ).



> Even if I'm having a little trouble controlling someone, but I'm not getting my *** kicked...  Stay back.  Make a phone call.  But I don't know who the guy joining in is; I don't know who you're trying to help, and I don't want to have to worry about your safety as well as my own.


See, this is where it gets dicier. Who decides when the Officer is getting the worst of it? If I think he is, but he doesn't, then I'm just one of those guys who watch too much Dragnet. Tough call. I notice the sergeant actually had the sense and the wind left to tell bystanders he wouldn't mind some help. And then they jumped in. This guy did _*good*_. :asian:


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## jks9199 (Aug 14, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> See, this is where it gets dicier. Who decides when the Officer is getting the worst of it? If I think he is, but he doesn't, then I'm just one of those guys who watch too much Dragnet. Tough call. I notice the sergeant actually had the sense and the wind left to tell bystanders he wouldn't mind some help. And then they jumped in. This guy did _*good*_. :asian:


 
Nothing wrong with the sergeant's actions.  Sure, sitting here now in my comfy chair, I can say "I'd have done this and that..." but I know how it works in the real world...  

As to how to tell if I need help...  Yeah, that's kind of tricky, but I think the line is actually pretty clear.  You can tell when the someone's still basically in control of the situation, and when it's gone to hell in a handbasket.  If I'm still verbalizing, or able to tell you to get back -- I'm still in control.  If it only goes on a few seconds... I'm in control.  When it lasts minutes... or when my verbalizing has gone from "stop resisting" through "stop ****ing resisting!" to "gawdamn it -- give the **** up all ready!" or things that would make the profanity filter blow up...  HELP!  If in doubt... call 911.

In fact, unless I'm about to be killed -- that's the very first thing I want you to do.  Because I want lots of cops coming to help.  I want them to know I'm in trouble.  NOTHING sounds better when it's already hit the fan than the roar of V8s hitting governers and the whine of approaching sirens!  And... if the worst does happen, and the ogre incapicitates me, I want rescue on the way, and I want people coming, because that means the ogre's got access to my gun!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Nothing wrong with the sergeant's actions. Sure, sitting here now in my comfy chair, I can say "I'd have done this and that..." but I know how it works in the real world...
> 
> As to how to tell if I need help... Yeah, that's kind of tricky, but I think the line is actually pretty clear. You can tell when the someone's still basically in control of the situation, and when it's gone to hell in a handbasket. If I'm still verbalizing, or able to tell you to get back -- I'm still in control. If it only goes on a few seconds... I'm in control. When it lasts minutes... or when my verbalizing has gone from "stop resisting" through "stop ****ing resisting!" to "gawdamn it -- give the **** up all ready!" or things that would make the profanity filter blow up... HELP! If in doubt... call 911.
> 
> In fact, unless I'm about to be killed -- that's the very first thing I want you to do. Because I want lots of cops coming to help. I want them to know I'm in trouble. NOTHING sounds better when it's already hit the fan than the roar of V8s hitting governers and the whine of approaching sirens! And... if the worst does happen, and the ogre incapicitates me, I want rescue on the way, and I want people coming, because that means the ogre's got access to my gun!


 
jks9199 really points out an important principle here in that if you see someone needing help the very least you can do is call 911. (this stands for anybody)  When an officer is clearly having a bad time of it then by all means at the very least call 911 so appropriate help can get on the way.  If you are able to physically intervene and assist an officer that is fighting for their life then do so if you are capable and can take that officers directions.  Very few things are worse than apprehending someone by yourself and being left out to dry by on lookers.  It is simply brutal!


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## thardey (Aug 14, 2007)

Okay, so if you were in this situation, after I called 911, how could I help? Grab him?

How do I let you know that I'm helping you, not him?

How do I let you know that I am somewhat trained to help?


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## thardey (Aug 14, 2007)

Another question:

I want to follow your orders, can I expect to get them in plain English, or are there some "hot" phrases it would be helpful to know, so that I can understand exactly what you are asking for?

Basically I know that communication is the key for a situation like this - how would you expect communication to happen when you're under this much, prolonged, stress?


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm thinking, loudly, 'Sir, do you need help?'
Or 'Officer' if you wish to be more clear.


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2007)

As I said earlier, at the least, calling 911 is better than nothing.  I know in past discussions of whether or not to help, I have said that I would choose to call the police and provide a detailed description of whats going on.  In a case with a police officer, in addition to calling for help, be it 911 or as jks9199 stated, using the car radio, if I was in a position to do so, I'd offer physical assistance.  Now, before someone asks why I'd do it for the cop and not for a civilian, its pretty simple...I don't think I have to worry about the cop turning on me.  Walk up on a male having a fight with his girlfriend, and its very possible that she could turn on me, even though I'm coming to her aid.  

This guy in this clip wasn't feeling the effects of anything.  His head was hit against a car and the officer headbutted him, and he still continued to struggle.  The pepperspray did nothing.  I'm wondering if a baton would have any effect.  Taser?  

I'm glad that things turned out ok for the officer in this clip.  Despite the struggle he was in, he kept fighting for control.  Its possible this could have been a worse situation than it turned out to be.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2007)

thardey said:


> Okay, so if you were in this situation, after I called 911, how could I help? Grab him?


 
I would say assist in the restraining.  Grabbing him, sweeping him down, throwing him down, holding him down for the officer to cuff him, or taking his cuffs and doing it yourself.



> How do I let you know that I'm helping you, not him?


 
I'd just come right out and ask.  "Officer, do you need help?"  Kinda an obvious question, but at least he's going to know you're there to help him, not the other guy.  



> How do I let you know that I am somewhat trained to help?


 
Looking at this clip, seems to me that his primary goal was to take him down to the ground.  Grabbing onto an arm, grabbing him in a bear hug, etc. anything, would be better than nothing IMO.


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## thardey (Aug 14, 2007)

(At this point, my questions are hypothetical for myself and any other people who may read this thread -- I know that at some point, the answers are "It depends", but that's why this clip is a good starting point, that is IF you were the officer in the video).

Anything (other than the obvious stupid things, like surprise the Officer, or inadvertently let the BG get a weapon from me), that I should not do?

I'm guessing that since the Officer didn't draw his gun, if I'm armed, I shouldn't draw mine.

What else would seem helpful, but would really make things harder for the LEO?


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## billybybose (Aug 14, 2007)

my ccw class was taught by a dps officer,and this subject came up.he said 1)call 911. 2)ask loudly officer do you need assistance?if yes,help take it to the ground.if no stay till backup comes and be a witness.this is in az.he said help take it to the ground and gain control because they dont want you throwing wild punches or eye gouging for which you may be civily sued by bad guys lawyer.


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## jks9199 (Aug 14, 2007)

thardey said:


> Okay, so if you were in this situation, after I called 911, how could I help? Grab him?
> 
> How do I let you know that I'm helping you, not him?
> 
> How do I let you know that I am somewhat trained to help?


There's no automatic answer to these questions; the cop is likely to know you're trying to help by your actions.  Hell -- yelling that you've called 911 may deter some people.   Announce yourself; ask if you can help...  Listen to what the cop says; it may be "grab his arm!" or it may be "get the hell out of the way!"  There are not standard phrases -- and if there were, I wouldn't tell you.  Often the goal is to take a suspect down to the ground, because that limits their mobility and options.

One thing I almost never want you to do, though, is add another gun to mix.  It's bad enough that I've brought a gun to wrasslin match.  And I don't want you to draw down on me...   Yes, I know, many civilians are at least as well trained as many cops, and often more practiced.  But I don't know YOUR skills... and I'm in that line of fire.  Bluntly... I don't trust you not to shoot me, and I don't trust the manufacturer of my body armor enough to want you to help me test it.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 15, 2007)

As far as the incident in the video clip, while there may be things the officer could have done better, you have to commend him for staying in the fight and not giving up.

As far as whether or not I would come to the aid of an officer in distress...absolutely. In fact, I'd probably be willing to help an officer a lot sooner than I'd help some random person. 
The important points have already been covered. Call 911 first, even if the officer doesn't _need_ help, they're not going to turn down the backup. If it looked like they needed an extra set of hands, I'd probably ask them if they wanted help rather than just charging in (don't want the officer to think I'm trying to help the other guy). If I felt the officer was in imminent danger of death or serious injury, I'd respond the same way as I would if I felt that _I_ was in imminent danger...BANG!

here's a link to a report of an incident that happened early last year where a citizen used deadly force to aid an officer in distress.
http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526


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## still learning (Aug 15, 2007)

Hello,  Most police officers are train to not to use excess force.  Most will use techniques to try to handcuffed the other person. It seems this officer was trying to do that.

This person must have been on "drugs" or something. Even the pepper spray seems 'No effects".

All of must help any police officer , either calling 911 right away, ask if he need assistance? or just jump in and help hold down this person, ask others around you to help to. (NOT to pound) but to help hold the person down.

There is always a chance you can get injure or killed.

Many of us know police officers and most will say if they are alone? ....yes they want people to help out!  Police are human being too!  NOT superperson!

It did take the people a long time before they help...maybe because they thought it would have end sooner.....then they realize the officer DOES NEED HELP.   You do not want the officer to think you are helping the other person, and draws his gun for self-defense? 

  .....unless we were there? ...it would be hard to say what most of us would do?

This is a get lesson here? ..........Aloha


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's no automatic answer to these questions; the cop is likely to know you're trying to help by your actions. Hell -- yelling that you've called 911 may deter some people. Announce yourself; ask if you can help... Listen to what the cop says; it may be "grab his arm!" or it may be "get the hell out of the way!" There are not standard phrases -- and if there were, I wouldn't tell you. Often the goal is to take a suspect down to the ground, because that limits their mobility and options.
> 
> One thing I almost never want you to do, though, is add another gun to mix. It's bad enough that I've brought a gun to wrasslin match. And I don't want you to draw down on me... Yes, I know, many civilians are at least as well trained as many cops, and often more practiced. But I don't know YOUR skills... and I'm in that line of fire. Bluntly... I don't trust you not to shoot me, and I don't trust the manufacturer of my body armor enough to want you to help me test it.


 
Excellent points all around.  There simply is no automatic answer because each situation will be fluid.  Call 911 and if you are able to help follow the officers directions as they will tell you what to do.


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## thardey (Aug 15, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Hell -- yelling that you've called 911 may deter some people.



Y'know, I hadn't thought of that. 



> Listen to what the cop says; it may be "grab his arm!" or it may be "get the hell out of the way!"  There are not standard phrases -- and if there were, I wouldn't tell you.  Often the goal is to take a suspect down to the ground, because that limits their mobility and options.



Having been in situations were I was suddenly asked to take orders, those orders can seem rude and abrasive, but us civvies have to remember that the officer is not being disrespectful - he's being blunt and efficient.



> One thing I almost never want you to do, though, is add another gun to mix.  It's bad enough that I've brought a gun to wrasslin match.  And I don't want you to draw down on me...   Yes, I know, many civilians are at least as well trained as many cops, and often more practiced.  But I don't know YOUR skills... and I'm in that line of fire.  Bluntly... I don't trust you not to shoot me, and I don't trust the manufacturer of my body armor enough to want you to help me test it.



So obviously drawing down is out - but if I'm carrying concealed and I jump on the guy, I've just doubled his chances for getting his hands on a gun. (It's not going to stay concealed for long while wresting.) From watching the video, I have a good example of keeping my gun hip away from the guy, but is it worth the extra risk? Especially since most civilian holsters are not exactly double - or triple - retention holsters. 

And that's probably not something to include in the "casual" conversation while asking to help. (How can I help? By the way, I have a gun on my right hip, I have a black belt in, blah, blah, blah, president of the neighborhood watch, blah blah blah, memorized _dragnet_, blah blah blah.)  I would rather the BG doesn't know I'm armed, if I could help it. But, I don't want any unwelcome surprises for you guys, either.

(Honestly, I'm not trying to chase the "what if" monkeys - I just want to actually be helpful in a situation like this, not the untrained do-gooder that inadvertently makes everything worse.) 

If I'm in my own truck, while calling 911, that could be a chance to leave the gun behind, safely locked in the cab. Then it wouldn't be a worry.


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## jks9199 (Aug 15, 2007)

thardey said:


> So obviously drawing down is out - but if I'm carrying concealed and I jump on the guy, I've just doubled his chances for getting his hands on a gun. (It's not going to stay concealed for long while wresting.) From watching the video, I have a good example of keeping my gun hip away from the guy, but is it worth the extra risk? Especially since most civilian holsters are not exactly double - or triple - retention holsters.
> 
> And that's probably not something to include in the "casual" conversation while asking to help. (How can I help? By the way, I have a gun on my right hip, I have a black belt in, blah, blah, blah, president of the neighborhood watch, blah blah blah, memorized _dragnet_, blah blah blah.) I would rather the BG doesn't know I'm armed, if I could help it. But, I don't want any unwelcome surprises for you guys, either.
> 
> ...


 
I've not said that I never want a civilian to pull a gun out to help me -- but that the situations are few and far between.  If you're carrying a concealed weapon (I'm not immediately aware of any concealable holsters that are high-level retention...  the two kind of work at cross purposes.), the best thing that you might do is call it in, and then back off and take a position where you can act if the ogre gets my gun.  There's really no hard rule -- but one of the scariest things professionally for me is covering a partner as he or she moves to cuff someone, because as they do so, I'm pointing my gun uncomfortably close to them if things get hairy.  

There's no magic answer I can give, that if you do A then B, you'll be doing the right thing.  You have to evaluate the situation, and do your best to make the best decision about what you can do.  It's what I do just about every day I work, at least once...  Sometimes, several times.  And when everything is already FUBARed...  it's even harder.  

One thing that's pretty much never the right thing?  Firing a warning shot.  But... might the right thing be to run away?  Yep...  Imagine a well meaning civilian who decided to try to help during the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery shootout...  Probably in the wrong place, huh?  At the same time... maybe if just one person had grabbed the bad guy's arm in the video that started this thread, the fight would have been over in a few minutes.  Hell... I've seen scary-big guys who were fighting like wild buffalo on 'roids get meek as a lamb when a female officer used "mommy voice!"


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## ejaazi (Aug 21, 2007)

LOL!!! In Okinawa, you must be a 2nd degree black belt in a martial art in order to get into the police academy. Guess why?


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 22, 2007)

ejaazi said:


> LOL!!! In Okinawa, you must be a 2nd degree black belt in a martial art in order to get into the police academy. Guess why?


 
Don't you also have to be a third degree to open a school legally?


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 22, 2007)

My first thought was to not offer anything on this thread, but there were/are aspects that perhaps folks are not aware of or just over looked. So lets offer the following for review. 

The vast majority of police (via training curriculums) are not endowed with sufficient fighting skills. They are instead to focus on restraining / backup and use of mandated equipment. This is predicated on the policy procedures, that have been either written or reviewed or both, by lawyers. So a review board can release a finding of "followed procedures" when an officer discharges his/her weapon and clears the officer, but if the officer should inflict bodily harm via physical contact, then the infamous "Police Brutality" hits front page and all sorts of litigation becomes the norm. 

Now to respond to "should you/anybody assist an officer" during such a confrontation, I offer the following.......................
1) Don't know if the bad guy has a weapon that he hasen't produced yet. It's unlikely that the officer was able to search, so you may get yourself into something very nasty.
2) Being a litigation prone society, it's not that far fetched to envision being sued by the bad guy. It's happened time and again and we've all seen/heard of such stupidity.
3) YELL out that you've called 911. This is a 50/50 proposition. It could have negitive repercussions. It mite distract the officer (for whatever reason), which could give the bad guy an edge or it just could force the bad guy to take it up a notch (instead of trying to escape, he now decides to inflict serious harm because help is on the way). It also could make the bad guy decide to just give up, so goes the 50/50. 

It all boils down to an individuals response based upon their character. My personal dictates mandate I assist as fast and hard as possible. The officer will know I'm there to assist him when the bad guy is hit/knocked to the ground or whatever, for it will happen way to quick for the officer to envision anything else is going on.


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