# Bait & sting tactics...



## jks9199 (Apr 14, 2013)

> Sometimes the bait is a small amount of cash in a stray wallet. Or a credit card. Even a pack of cigarettes can do the trick.
> Police in New York City leave the items unattended  on subway  platforms, on park benches, in cars  and wait to see if someone grabs  them.
> The New York Police Department says the practice has been a valuable  tool for catching career criminals and deterring thefts in public  places. But a recent court ruling throwing out a larceny case against a  Bronx woman cast a harsh light on a tactic critics say too often sweeps  up innocent people.
> Judge Linda Poust Lopez found that there was no proof Deirdre Myers  tried to steal anything  and that she was framed by a sting that took  the tactic way too far.
> Upholding the charges "would greatly damage the confidence and trust of  the public in the fairness and effectiveness of the criminal justice  system, and rightly so," the judge wrote.


Full article

In brief -- the NYPD has supposedly taken bait tactics, like leaving a valuable item in plain view, apparently unattended, and nabbing someone for taking it too far.  In the case prompting the article, from what is in the article, they staged a bailout, then left apparent valuables in the "bad guy's" car.  The article implies that they arrested a woman for merely looking into the car... which, if true, I absolutely agree is going too far.

What are your thoughts on bait tactics, like leaving a bicycle out and nabbing anyone taking it?  Where is the line too far?


----------



## Tgace (Apr 14, 2013)

Vehicles that can be "parked" like bikes and cars...you have NO right to take them. 

Stuff IN a car? You have no right to take that. 

A wallet on a bench? Who's to say that the person wasn't going to return it? A pack of cigarettes? You have to be kidding me.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 14, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Vehicles that can be "parked" like bikes and cars...you have NO right to take them.
> 
> Stuff IN a car? You have no right to take that.
> 
> A wallet on a bench? Who's to say that the person wasn't going to return it? A pack of cigarettes? You have to be kidding me.



Hard to sum it up any better than this.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 14, 2013)

Given; if it's not yours, you ain't supposed to take it.  Doesn't matter if it's a car, a bike, a wallet, or a piece of ABC gum.  If it's been legitimately discarded, it's someone's job to pick it up.

OK...  We know that.  We also know that there are people out there who don't care, and, at the extreme end, figure that if you really wanted to keep it, you'd have locked it up or not just left it somewhere -- so they'll take it.  These folks are a problem; they're responsible for a lot of other problems.

What tactics are reasonable for the police to use to identify and trap the people who are going to steal?  Can they leave a bicycle outside, unlocked, and watch for someone to ride away with it, then pounce on 'em?  How about a wallet on a bench?  What safeguards are there to identify the Good Samaritan who picks up that wallet, and is going to try to identify and contact the owner, without involving the police, rather than the guy who's taking the wallet to empty it, keep anything of value, and dump the rest?


----------



## Carol (Apr 14, 2013)

I have a hard time with tactics that could turn usually honest people in to criminals. 

Locked cars?  Sure, someone has to break in to them to get what's inside...that alone is a crime, isn't it?  A pocketbook on a park bench?  That leaves me a lot more uncomfortable.


----------



## Drasken (Apr 15, 2013)

I'd have less problems with these tactics if it were something like a computer sitting in the back seat of a locked car. Or keys left in plain view inside a vehicle. Try to take the computer or car? Get arrested.
I myself have returned a wallet with all cash still inside, untouched. I have lost my wallet and $300 was stolen before it was put in lost and found. Which meant I had to pawn stuff to pay rent. I won't do that yo anyone else.
Good samaritans exist.
But yeah, break into or steal a vehicle? Go to jail.

I remember a Dateline sting where they sat out an IPod. They tracked them after being stolen and confronted the people at their homes about it. If you're leaving out items like that? Sure. Kind of eliminates the chances of a good samaritan being in the crossfire.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2013)

Like others, I have a problem with leaving something on a bench or on the ground and then calling it theft when someone picks it up. You want to put an iPad on the front seat of of an open convertible? Fine. If I grab that, it's theft, clearly. 
Set that same iPad down on the ground in City Park and it's a different story. 
Although I'm a fan of the Good Samaritan and have turned in plenty of things to lost and found over the years, I'm not sure that I'd even consider it theft if someone picked up the iPad and kept it, unless there is some clear indication of who it belongs to.


----------



## MJS (Apr 15, 2013)

A laptop in plain view in an unlocked car....well, sure, if its clearly not their car, then yes, I can justify an arrest.  Finding a wallet loaded with cash on the ground....probably a bit more difficult to prove.  I mean, if they see the person pick up the wallet, look inside, remove the cash, stuff it in their pocket, and toss the wallet back to the ground...well, common sense should dictate that the wallet wasn't theirs.  If they pick it up, put it in their pocket and walk away...well, it could be a bad guy just not wanting to be too obvious, or it could also be a good person who's trying to do the right thing.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 15, 2013)

I wouldn't put "locked car" down as a priority...nobody has a right to help themselves to your stuff because your door is unlocked.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## crushing (Apr 15, 2013)

I think it's easier and safer for the authorities to create petty criminals out of opportunists and capture them on the spot than to actually track down the real dangerous criminals.  Plus, the blotter shows that they are working hard for the public good.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 15, 2013)

That used to be part of police training, that those were high risk, low return tactics under most circumstances.  Courts weren't favorable to putting things out in the open where an otherwise good person might succomb to temptation that they normally might not, as opposed to the catching the career criminal.  They seemed to consider it too close to entrapment (although or course, strictly speaking it was not).  With the exceptions already noted, and perhaps putting bicycles or something similar, in areas where there was a known problem with thefts of that kind of object, the courts would be amenable to throwing it out, or giving reduced sentances.  Sounds like NYPD is getting bad legal advice, or have gone beyond their legal advice.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 15, 2013)

crushing said:


> I think it's easier and safer for the authorities to create petty criminals out of opportunists and capture them on the spot than to actually track down the real dangerous criminals.  Plus, the blotter shows that they are working hard for the public good.


But that "opportunist" IS taking something that's not theirs, and they don't intend to return it, right?  If I lose my wallet, and you find it, does that entitle you to the money?  What if it's not my wallet, but simply an envelope with cash in it that I'm going to use to buy a car later on?  What if he sees me drop it?  He's just an opportunist, right?


----------



## crushing (Apr 15, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> But that "opportunist" IS taking something that's not theirs, and they don't intend to return it, right?  If I lose my wallet, and you find it, does that entitle you to the money?  What if it's not my wallet, but simply an envelope with cash in it that I'm going to use to buy a car later on?  What if he sees me drop it?  He's just an opportunist, right?



But that "opportunist" IS taking something that's not theirs, and they  don't intend to return it, right?  *Probably*
If I lose my wallet, and you find it,  does that entitle you to the money?   *No*
What if it's not my wallet, but  simply an envelope with cash in it that I'm going to use to buy a car  later on?  *No*
What if he sees me drop it?  *No*
He's just an opportunist, right?  *Is anyone just one thing?
*
*How'd I do?  I wasn't prepared for a pop quiz.*


----------



## arnisador (Apr 15, 2013)

MJS said:


> If they pick it up, put it in their pocket and walk away...well, it could be a bad guy just not wanting to be too obvious, or it could also be a good person who's trying to do the right thing.



I've actually found a wallet, picked it up to try to return it, and worried about this possibility. Luckily the owner showed up very soon after, glad to see it safe.


----------



## Gnarlie (Apr 16, 2013)

I'd pick it up, take it home, and either call the police station and return it to lost property, or call the owner if there was a name. Whatever the item was.

If I was arrested on the way home, I'd like to see anyone prove that I didn't intend to return the item.

This woman, however, clearly has no intention of returning the item, even though it is engraved with the owner's name.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobil...n-ipad-pictures-allen-engstrom_n_2884079.html

Gnarlie


----------

