# Augustine Fong/Ho Kam Ming system contrasted to Leung Ting system



## shaolin_al (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi everyone this is not a wc system vs system thread. In the city I live the two main organizations with teachers seem to either be/have been related to Leung Ting's system or the Augustine Fong system. I was just curious for anyone who knows about these two systems, what are the differences you have seen between the two? I've watched videos on each and only notice very minor differences and feel like I am missing something. I appreciate any input, thanks.


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi, don't be so worried about the differences in lineage as about differences in the local schools. Check out how they train, how they teach etc is everything open or are there secrets? how much does training cost and are you expected to part with big sums in advance? does the sifu seem to know his/her stuff? can the sifu / senior students explain everything they do? 
Alot of the differences between the lineages only become apparent when you have sufficient training to be able to notice them. Across lineages the techniques may look the same but there are often differences in the energy used or the way in which the technique is applied.


----------



## geezer (Jul 10, 2012)

Hey Allan, since you used to train with me and took a seminar with Master Jeff Webb, you have had a taste of the LT system. If you want to try out the Augustine Fong system, you can't do better than to visit Joy's class. It's a bit more of a drive, as he lives in Tempe, but still doable. PM him on this site and he can fill you in. Glad you are getting back into WC --Sifu Steve.


----------



## shaolin_al (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi Sifu Steve. Actually I am not planning on checking out the Fong system and Ian I wasn't so much asking about choosing a school as I just want to know what some of the technical differences are between the Leung Ting system and the Fong system from anyone who has done one or both. I will talk to you soon Sifu, thanks for posting.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 11, 2012)

shaolin_al said:


> Hi Sifu Steve. Actually I am not planning on checking out the Fong system and Ian I wasn't so much asking about choosing a school as I just want to know what some of the technical differences are between the Leung Ting system and the Fong system from anyone who has done one or both. I will talk to you soon Sifu, thanks for posting.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Idle curiosity, then?  Watching videos can mislead you. I do not do Leung Ting's WT- but both Steve and Jeff Webb are friends.

joy chaudhuri


----------



## shaolin_al (Jul 11, 2012)

Sifu Joy could you tell me some of the differences you have seen with the system you train, compared to other wing chun styles?


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 11, 2012)

shaolin_al said:


> Sifu Joy could you tell me some of the differences you have seen with the system you train, compared to other wing chun styles?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.fongswingchun.com/federation-curriculum.php

Clicking on the above link should give you an idea about Augustine Fong sifu's approach to wing chun.

Of course I have seen many different versions of wing chun-if they work for others, ok by me. I don't preach


----------



## shaolin_al (Jul 12, 2012)

thank you sifu Joy. Honestly I am interested in training in different systems of wing chun to be honest. I am sure each has something to offer in its own right


----------



## Vajramusti (Jul 12, 2012)

shaolin_al said:


> thank you sifu Joy. Honestly I am interested in training in different systems of wing chun to be honest. I am sure each has something to offer in its own right


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok. Your business, not mine.


----------



## geezer (Jul 12, 2012)

_Allan_, the real "thing of it" is that you need get out, train regularly and get to where you really understand your chosen system or lineage before such comparisons will make any sense to you. Then you may be able to look at the way different groups do things and make some sense of what's going on. Until that point such issues are more often than not a distraction from your training or at best, as Joy said, "idle curiosity".


----------



## WingChunIan (Jul 13, 2012)

geezer said:


> Hey Allan, since you used to train with me and took a seminar with Master Jeff Webb, you have had a taste of the LT system. If you want to try out the Augustine Fong system, you can't do better than to visit Joy's class. It's a bit more of a drive, as he lives in Tempe, but still doable. PM him on this site and he can fill you in. Glad you are getting back into WC --Sifu Steve.



Refreshing attitude, shame more in our field can't be the same


----------



## boothdos (Oct 31, 2012)

*The issue is simple; nothing is wrong with differences as long as they work and are effective. The point is when differences break principle, you aren't doing Wing Chun, your doing something else. Nothing wrong with doing something different, but don't call it Wing Chun. Wing Chun is not an answer to all, but Sifus should explain when they are breaking theory, coming off the center line, etc.*


----------



## geezer (Nov 1, 2012)

boothdos said:


> *The issue is simple; nothing is wrong with differences as long as they work and are effective. The point is when differences break principle, you aren't doing Wing Chun, your doing something else. Nothing wrong with doing something different, but don't call it Wing Chun. Wing Chun is not an answer to all, but Sifus should explain when they are breaking theory, coming off the center line, etc.*



I ...sort of... agree. The problem is that there are a different lineages of Wing Chun. And they differ in some pretty important ways. Not just minor things like the order and number of movements in a form, but in major concepts about stance, steps, structure, centerline, and so on. Yet all claim to be Wing Chun. 

My old Chinese sifu, for example, had his own very strong ideas about what Wing Chun was and should be. He didn't even accept many of the interpretations of others in his own WC family or lineage (Ip Man) so he changed the spelling of his own system to differentiate what he did from anybody else's WC. Unfortunately this didn't solve the problem and may have only added to the confusion. 

Meanwhile over on some of the other forums, people argue endlessly over whether "real" WC has this or that technique. "Real WC doesn't use a hooking punch." "Oh yes it does." No, it doesn't" "Nya, nya, nyaa!"...I have no patience with that sort of childish quibbling. The most honest thing you can say is, "_My WC_ has or doesn't have this, and here's why..."

Here's an example: The Wing Chun I spent most of my time in does _not_ include a low "round kick" for a number of reasons. Another WC branch that also hails directly from Ip Man (that I was briefly exposed to back in the 70's) _does_ include that kick. Well, its not a centerline shot the way a WC front thrust kick is, ...it's actually more like a _fak-sau_ except using the leg rather than the arm. It can work well. No, it's not officially part of the system of WC I teach, but _who am I to say thet it's not a valid part of somebody else's WC?_


----------



## jeff_hasbrouck (Nov 1, 2012)

Al-

I was in the Leung Ting system for 9 years, and from my personal experience I have found that they have some benefits and pit-falls. In my experience, they have a good training curriculum. But they don't incorporate very much lat-sau. Now some people don't care about chinese lat-sau, but those people aren't going to be very good at applying their techniques in combat. Chi-sau is how you get your feeling, and lat-sau is the application to fighting.

the IWTA has some good stuff for training, and they used to be pretty big in america. But they are rapidly declining, I believe there is only 3 major schools left. San Antonio (Sifu Will Parker) - Arizona (Sifu Mike... forgot his last name lol) and Chicago (Sifu Mike Adams)... My problem with the IWTA is the polotics. And they charge and arm and a leg for everything. I don't care what anyone thinks, but it shouldn't cost 600$ (american) a section to learn the knives. I don't have that much experience with the Fong guys, but from the few that I have met, they were all very nice people and trained hard. That being said, if you already have a flavor for LT style WT, you should go check out the A. Fong guy and find what fits you better ... I've had a few opprotunities to meet and greet and train a bit with Sifu Webb, and he is a bad-***. I enjoyed his insight and his well rounded knowledge in the art. But back then I was but a beginner. If you can find what suits your needs and aligns with your sensiblities, that is where you will be the most happy. 

Just remember there are so many differences out there that the only way to get it all is tro train with everyone lol... And thats the crux of the matter. Most LT type people (Not saying that Sifu Webb has done or will do this) usually get jealous if you go out and train with other people. Sifu Will Parker (My 1st sifu) had a bad tendency to get jealous and go off on a power trip about how LT WT is the best, so why go anywhere else, even to other people in the LT orginization.

Truthfully, LTWT or the IWTA definately isn't the best, and especially in america. Personally I would go with Sifu Webb, because that is the style I am most comfortable with, and I have no want or need to re-learn things another way. That isn't to say I wouldn't enjoy having a chance to touch hands with the Augustine Fong guys because they have yet another perspective that can help you on the road to understanding yourself better and your martial arts better.

I would however urge you if you can find a City Wing Tsun group (Sifu's Glenn Tillman & Ramfis De Pena, who are two close friends of mine) to go train with them. They live in San Antonio, and to me the Alex Richter approach is the best that suits my needs and aligns with the way I want Wing Tsun to be for me.

Lol this is just basically a long-winded reply that says: Try them both out and see what fits, then go with that 

All the best in your descision and training!


----------

