# Qigong is illegal in Florida



## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 24, 2007)

I was told this by another Qigong practicer:


> Thank you for your correspondence to Governor Crist regarding QiGong.
> The regulations of QiGong falls under the scope of practice of an
> acupuncturist and massage therapist.  Because the regulation of
> acupuncture and massage therapy is under the Florida Department of
> ...


 I do not know what that means for other teacher's in Qigong as my teacher's did not have license in those areas but were good at Qigong. I suppose there is a reason for not to many people teaching Qigong in Florida if this is that reason. I emailed Ronda in regards to the penatlies of teaching it and practicing it in a "religous manner" to see if there is some hope.


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## Obliquity (Nov 24, 2007)

The term "practice" may refer specifically to someone _paying for _Qigong. It's not likely the state is too concerned with someone doing it for recreational purposes, although ---> I am not an attorney.


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## Kacey (Nov 24, 2007)

Requiring a license is not the same thing as illegal - and, as Obliquity said, practicing as an individual is not the same thing, nor does it generally require the same type of licensure, as  being a practitioner, that is,  someone who practices on others (either as a professional like the acupuncturist and massage therapist listed in the letter, or as an instructor).

I realize that many types of MA instructors are _not_ licensed - however, if the practitioner must be licensed to practice, I would assume (hope!) that those who _teach_ the practitioner would likewise be licensed.


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## jks9199 (Nov 24, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out what a "Qigong practitioner" in a sense like this would be...  All I can figure is that the regulation is addressing someone practicing traditional medicine, like combining herbal medicines, accupuncture/accupressure, and so on.  I don't think it would apply to either instruction or practice of Qigong exercises in the martial arts.


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## buldog (Nov 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm trying to figure out what a "Qigong practitioner" in a sense like this would be... All I can figure is that the regulation is addressing someone practicing traditional medicine, like combining herbal medicines, accupuncture/accupressure, and so on. I don't think it would apply to either instruction or practice of Qigong exercises in the martial arts.


I used to live in Florida a while back and from what I can remember they considered Qigong an "Alternative Therapy" and as such require proof of instruction by an accredited school before allowing you to practise.  Even though I had more that enough hours of massage training I was refused a license because I did not have enough hours of Hydrotherapy training(which is the use of moist hot or cold packs).  They are most likely lumping in Qigong with traditional Chinese medicine and will not recognize the MA applications as being valid training.
Good luck with the religious approach but I wouldn't bank on it.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 24, 2007)

[The problem lays in who would know more about Qigong. The Qigong teacher, The massage therapist or the Acupunturist.



> The regulations of QiGong falls under the scope of practice of an
> acupuncturist and massage therapist


 This concerns me in I know Acupuncturist who do not know much about Qigong they know Acupunture but when it comes to Qigong they know maybe some simple exercises. As for the Massage therapist again I know of an Acupunture Massage school who's coverage on Qigong is some new age mixture than real Qigong. 



> The term "practice" may refer specifically to someone _paying for _Qigong. It's not likely the state is too concerned with someone doing it for recreational purposes, although ---> I am not an attorney


I have taught for free in some cases I have also asked for donations(Seeing as how I have paided $35-100hr with my teachers) 



> Requiring a license is not the same thing as illegal - and, as Obliquity said, practicing as an individual is not the same thing, nor does it generally require the same type of licensure, as being a practitioner, that is, someone who practices on others (either as a professional like the acupuncturist and massage therapist listed in the letter, or as an instructor).
> 
> I realize that many types of MA instructors are _not_ licensed - however, if the practitioner must be licensed to practice, I would assume (hope!) that those who _teach_ the practitioner would likewise be licensed.


I suppose it is not illegal. However to go and pay $8,000-for massage license or go through 6years of school so you can teach something complete different is something I doubt most would do. There really is no Qigong certifications. As one of my teachers said about a woman who recieved a Qigong certificate after a seminar" Thats great you have a piece of paper saying you are Qigong certified however, my 20 years of experience is worth more than your fancy paper" 
I guess the point is where does it leave Qigong? If the government is going to regulate Qigong and who can teach and can not is it their business are they qualified to?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 24, 2007)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> [The problem lays in who would know more about Qigong. The Qigong teacher, The massage therapist or the Acupunturist.


 
I n general a Qigong teacher but depending on where the acupuncturist was trained (I'm talking gradates of TCM universities in China) it could in some cases be the acupuncturist. I have seen some fairly bad Qigong teachers that really are only doing the Qigong New Age Crystal Dance. 



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> This concerns me in I know Acupuncturist who do not know much about Qigong they know Acupunture but when it comes to Qigong they know maybe some simple exercises. As for the Massage therapist again I know of an Acupunture Massage school who's coverage on Qigong is some new age mixture than real Qigong.


 
Most acupuncturists know little about herbal too but they still use it. Does prescribing herbals require a license in Florida?




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> [
> I suppose it is not illegal. However to go and pay $8,000-for massage license or go through 6years of school so you can teach something complete different is something I doubt most would do. There really is no Qigong certifications. As one of my teachers said about a woman who recieved a Qigong certificate after a seminar" Thats great you have a piece of paper saying you are Qigong certified however, my 20 years of experience is worth more than your fancy paper"
> I guess the point is where does it leave Qigong? If the government is going to regulate Qigong and who can teach and can not is it their business are they qualified to?


 
Does Florida Recognize the NCCAOM test?

And I agree with what you are saying here. How do people that do not know a thing about qigong test it to see if you are qualified? 

And I know this has been motioned but I a really concerned about this and how it could eventually affect something like Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi.

Also, although I am FAR from a supporter of Falun Gong, they are BIG on Qigong, would Florida require them to get a license to practice and teach?


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## tellner (Nov 24, 2007)

I think there's a difference between "practice" and "practice" here. 

From what you say I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that you mean "perform the exercises of Qigong".

When the State of Florida says it's regulated as a medical thing they probably mean "teach or prescribe it as a therapeutic modality, especially if you're charging for it".

I really doubt that you need a license to do Qi Gong for your own health or edification.

As for Reiki, I'm assuming they got it wrong. You'd need a duck hunting license for things that go "quack" :shrug:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 25, 2007)

[QUOTEMost acupuncturists know little about herbal too but they still use it. Does prescribing herbals require a license in Florida?[/QUOTE]I would believe so! But word of mouth from friend to friend goes along way. Florida follows all agreements from what I heard in regards to Acupunture.



> And I know this has been motioned but I a really concerned about this and how it could eventually affect something like Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi.


 It was one reason why I brought it up. My Bagua teacher is not a LMT or anything. Most of my Qigong teacher's were not licensed in the medical field but had either other areas of business or taught as their prime means of income. 


> Also, although I am FAR from a supporter of Falun Gong, they are BIG on Qigong, would Florida require them to get a license to practice and teach?


This is the big question in which I guess I will have to wait for a reply from an offical. 
it is true you can practice Qigong which is fine not against the law to do that. However as I tell my students contact your doctor first before practicing Qigong and as soon as I have their application filled out it clearly says they practice under their own free will and hold noone else acountable for the results of Qigong. I suppose I should just do what my teacher's do, teach Qigong and let the cards fall where they fall.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 29, 2007)

Current update information.
I recieved 2 emails 1. from Department of health and a second one from National Qigong asst. 
Qigong as told to me by the representive of D.O.H. falls under the catagory of Acupunture methods used. The representive skipped over 
many detailed questions such as can it be taught in a religous manner and punishments for teaching. The national Qigong Asst. in Florida is fighting to over rule this. As for me I read the Law and statues of Acupunture concerning the matter it listed Qigong however it does not list Neigong.
So what's in a name Neigong and Qigong or even Dao-yin for the latter I will use the term Neigong simply internal arts what ever that means. In a somewhat funny thing one of my teacher's use to say everything you do is Qigong(meaning energy work)


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## jks9199 (Nov 29, 2007)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Current update information.
> I recieved 2 emails 1. from Department of health and a second one from National Qigong asst.
> Qigong as told to me by the representive of D.O.H. falls under the catagory of Acupunture methods used. The representive skipped over
> many detailed questions such as can it be taught in a religous manner and punishments for teaching. The national Qigong Asst. in Florida is fighting to over rule this. As for me I read the Law and statues of Acupunture concerning the matter it listed Qigong however it does not list Neigong.
> So what's in a name Neigong and Qigong or even Dao-yin for the latter I will use the term Neigong simply internal arts what ever that means. In a somewhat funny thing one of my teacher's use to say everything you do is Qigong(meaning energy work)


One warning...  Check the code for a definition of "qigong" because the definition used might describe all variants.  For example, in Virginia's code, carrying nunchaku concealed is prohibited with this phrasing:


> any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain


.
As you can see, they pretty much tried to catch any varient...including a few that are just bizarre, like calling them shuriken!

You just don't want to get stuck over a legalism unless you know the judge is going to take your side.


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## wushu2004 (Nov 29, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> One warning...  Check the code for a definition of "qigong" because the definition used might describe all variants.  For example, in Virginia's code, carrying nunchaku concealed is prohibited with this phrasing:
> .
> As you can see, they pretty much tried to catch any varient...including a few that are just bizarre, like calling them shuriken!
> 
> You just don't want to get stuck over a legalism unless you know the judge is going to take your side.


wow first time i've heard nunchaku being called shuriken...


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## punisher73 (Nov 30, 2007)

I have heard that there is a strong push to get all types of "alternative therapies" as liscensed medical pratices so they can be regulated by the traditional medical community and herbs and such by the FDA.

I'd have to call bullcrap on the law, because of how "qigong" can be taught.  Do they require yoga teachers to have a certification, or pilates instructors, or martial arts?  If not, you are teaching a physical exercise.  They are trying to regulate it under the auspices of "medical treatment" when it is not ( I realize it can be, and some do).  Do the postures have health benefits, yes, just like other stretching and aerobic activities.  I would just do the classes in a MA school as part of an MA based curriculum.


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## grydth (Dec 3, 2007)

For a fundamentally bizarre and irratonal law, New York's martial arts weapons law has few peers.

You sometimes see these laws enacted after a well publicized crime, when politicos need to show that they "are doing something".  

As to licensing and registration in Florida, I'd be very surprised to see any improvement in the quality of Qi Gong offered result from it. Might even be more expensive to study, as the teacher must cover the new fees levied on teachers.

Still, the fact that an activity is regulated is not the same thing as saying it is illegal.


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## tellner (Dec 3, 2007)

Oh, I don't know. New York's "Cabaret License" laws are even stupider. Basically, there is a limited number of (expensively traded) permits. Without one it is illegal for patrons to stand up and dance.


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## jks9199 (Dec 3, 2007)

grydth said:


> For a fundamentally bizarre and irratonal law, New York's martial arts weapons law has few peers.
> 
> You sometimes see these laws enacted after a well publicized crime, when politicos need to show that they "are doing something".
> 
> ...


Yep...  Knee jerk laws.

For example, it is now specifically illegal in Virginia to carry a machete as a concealed weapon.  Why?  'Cause MS-13 favors machetes.  (A machete'll do a number on you, too!)  

And, yes, they can & do conceal them.

And because the code that defined concealed knives is kind of weird.  It mentions dirk, bowie, dagger, etc.  I've seen defense attorneys pull out a dictionary and argue weather a particular knife that was carried for defense and concealed from common observation in a way that's inconsistent with a tool actually qualifies.  (I came close to getting to testify as an expert on knives, in one case!)


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## Franzfri (Dec 30, 2007)

Well I guess that the participants who show up on the tennis court early in the morning at the International Chinese Martial Arts Championship held in Orlando on Memorial Day weekend are breaking the law by cultivating their chi in the practice of Qigong in preparation for competing.  I guess that the Grandmaster who taught a wonderful workshop on taiji that began with Qigong exercises and the woman who came all the way from California to teach her special form of Qigong at another workshop were also breaking the law.   And how about the students...were they also breaking the law?  I'm sure that the conference organizers are implicated also. Well I don't suppose anyone will tell on them.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2007)

all types of stretching and exercising aerobics could possibly be seen as forms of qigong.  ofcourse i know that in fact it is not so, but technically i believe it.

are they concerned about people malpracticing or is the field so abused that the government had to take such measures?


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 31, 2007)

[QUOTEare they concerned about people malpracticing or is the field so abused that the government had to take such measures? ][/QUOTE] The people who made the rules or laws do not have enough knowledge about it. I went to an Acupunture school and I was amazed at the inaccurate and how little that school knew about Qigong. As far as I am aware in Florida there is not that many advertising Qigong per say and in Miami I know only a handful. The field is only abused in the sense that because of lack of people who know Qigong supplement what they do not know with mixtures of New age, Yoga, Reiki, and what ever else. You can be certified in Qigong( I know those out there who are giving away Medical Qigong certificates like candy just look in QI magazine and Empty vessel magazine) I know as well the National Qigong asst. in Florida is trying to "fight the power" with another group who want to elimate all license for alternative medicine as long as they know what they are doing. So to put it in another way the law is for the law makers to cover their butt and make money.


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