# Grappling With The Knife!



## Brian R. VanCise

Okay I was blogging today and posted this post on a recent training session.
I hope we can start, discuss and have an interesting topic regarding grappling with the knife. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Here is the post from my blog *The Instinctive Edge*!


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## terryl965

Good arrticle Brian and you are right we do not get to pick whether or not we go to the ground, but we do get to pick whether or not we stay on the ground. Hence why we need to practice getting back to our feet as fast as possiblle when a weapon is in play. I have always said to all my people the ground is not the place to be in a fight but you will find yourself there alot of the time, what makes a strong fighter better than some is how fast they can get back to stable grounds and controlling there opponet.


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## jarrod

interesting blog!  

for my part, i actually prefer to be on the ground with a knife weilding attacker.  this has more to do with my relative comfort on the ground rather than any sort of tactical advantage though.  from a dominant top position it is relatively easy isolate the knife & attack from there.  from the guard you can tie up their knife & attack their balance with your lower body.  like i said though, it's relative to one's own skill set, & not a uniform approach i would recommend for everybody.  

one drill i occasionally do with my students (they are sport/recreational grapplers but we touch on self-defense from time to time) is in the middle of a grappling match, a third person will throw a training knife on the mat to simulate an improvised weapon becoming available (broken bottle, knife that fell off the counter, whatever).  they then have to decide whether to go for the blade or press their attack as is.  it's a pretty interesting drill.  sometimes we add mma gloves with striking, simulated eye gouges, bites, etc.  

jf


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## jks9199

Personally -- I'd discourage going to the ground if you're unarmed against a knife.  You lose too much mobility, and you add the complication of simply falling on the blade against the ground.

If you're unarmed fighting someone with a knife -- I think you want as much mobility as you can get.  Of course, I get a little unorthodox in some of my unarmed defense against weapons...  I don't worry much about the weapon, and go straight to the user!  

If you're both armed with a knife... I still don't like the idea of going down... too easy to get that blade caught in a useless position...

Of course, what I like doesn't have a bit to do with what might happen -- but if I have to grapple with a knife, I want to stay on my feet more than go down.  Ideally -- I don't want to grapple at all with a knife...  And if I go down -- you have to remember that an escape that pulls the limb out could leave you cut...  You think two sweaty people are slick... blood's worse!


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## jarrod

jks9199 said:


> Personally -- I'd discourage going to the ground if you're unarmed against a knife. You lose too much mobility, and you add the complication of simply falling on the blade against the ground.
> 
> If you're unarmed fighting someone with a knife -- I think you want as much mobility as you can get. Of course, I get a little unorthodox in some of my unarmed defense against weapons... I don't worry much about the weapon, and go straight to the user!
> 
> If you're both armed with a knife... I still don't like the idea of going down... too easy to get that blade caught in a useless position...
> 
> Of course, what I like doesn't have a bit to do with what might happen -- but if I have to grapple with a knife, I want to stay on my feet more than go down. Ideally -- I don't want to grapple at all with a knife... And if I go down -- you have to remember that an escape that pulls the limb out could leave you cut... You think two sweaty people are slick... blood's worse!


 
if i'm unarmed & on the feet against a knife, i'm not fighting, i'm running!  

failing that, i'm securing an improvised weapon.    

as for knife-on-knife, standing or on the ground...it just doesn't happen.  at least not enough to make it take up a significant portion of your training time.  i still train it for fun & to develop attributes, but realistically a knife wielding attacker isn't interested in a duel.  

jf


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## Brian R. VanCise

jarrod said:


> if i'm unarmed & on the feet against a knife, i'm not fighting, i'm running!
> 
> failing that, i'm securing an improvised weapon.
> 
> as for knife-on-knife, standing or on the ground...it just doesn't happen.  at least not enough to make it take up a significant portion of your training time.  i still train it for fun & to develop attributes, but realistically a knife wielding attacker isn't interested in a duel.
> 
> jf



Hey Jarrod,

In my county where I live probably 70% or more of the guy's walking around have a folding knife on them.  So the chance of a knife encounter is possible and also a knife on knife encounter.  I will concur with you that *a duel* where both know a knife is going to be involved is probably almost non existent in this day in age.  Most attackers and that would include knife wielding attackers want an advantage. They do not want their prey having a tool to equalize the situation.  Running is always the number one option.  However, that option may be unavailable if you are with your wife, girlfriend, kid's, etc.  Now imagine this you are in a bar fight or any physical encounter and it goes to the ground and the other guy deploys a knife.  Maybe you have a knife that you can deploy or not.  Another scenario to think about is you are at home asleep and someone breaks into your house and you hear a noise and you pick up a tool ie. possibly a knife. (for me it will be ching ching pow)  You walk around a corner and walla there is someone standing there with a knife in his hand and game is on.  The potential for violence and possibility of a tool or tools entering into the equation is very high.  Particularly when you think that we as human beings want in general to survive and most people will seek an advantage. ie. a tool.

The tool training that we utilize in IRT can be used whether I have a tool in my hand or not.  The same movement applies either way.  Just with different consequences. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Now here is a fun drill for you during your next BJJ class get some folding knife trainers and have each of your guy's have one in their waist band or belt.  Then allow them to roll and if they want to pull out a knife.  You might be blown away with what will happen.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Oh and to put something on the line a little the loser buy's the other guy a GI.  That should get the adrenaline going as BJJ GI's cost a fortune. ( I should know I have a bunch )


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## Brian R. VanCise

Speaking of tool based personal protection in this article a rapid arnis guy in New Zealand took down a couple of young punks while holding a mag light.  He also disarmed one of them who had a knife.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4797120a23016.html


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## jks9199

Knife "fights" are more common than many think -- but they aren't kali-arnis-fencing type duels.  The real knife fights I've investigated or studied reports of more typically involve more stealth and surprise deployment than a dueling situation.  They may simply slash at each other pretty furiously... or the fight might look more like a fist fight, until the blood is seen.


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## MA-Caver

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Speaking of tool based personal protection in this article a rapid arnis guy in New Zealand took down a couple of young punks while holding a mag light.  He also disarmed one of them who had a knife.
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/4797120a23016.html


Good article and a can't be helped to be funny read. What happened to those two punk kids is going to be an embarrassment for the rest of their lives... 
Steak knives, chased out, plastic bags over the faces (think suffocation hazard), flyswatters and his own mother just walking by. :lol: 
*ahem* ok serious now

Going to ground with the possibility of a knife is very scary and I agree with Brian/JKS that the whole dynamics of the confrontation changes when a blade appears. Some of the scars I have are a direct result of some encounters like this. 
Getting up as quickly as possible is important but if you're involved with restraining/holding the knife arm it might not be as easy as one may think. Also getting up allows the knife wielder to do so likewise. Just a matter of getting up faster and being at the ready or already performing the counter as the knife is struggling to get up. 
Arts with specified ground techniques have an definite advantage on the ground while those involving joint locks and stick fighting have their advantage. 
The biggest fear I think is trying to maintain focus on the knife and forgetting everything else. I've used my knife as a distraction. That's something else to consider while practicing/training.


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## jarrod

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Jarrod,
> 
> In my county where I live probably 70% or more of the guy's walking around have a folding knife on them. So the chance of a knife encounter is possible and also a knife on knife encounter. I will concur with you that *a duel* where both know a knife is going to be involved is probably almost non existent in this day in age. Most attackers and that would include knife wielding attackers want an advantage. They do not want their prey having a tool to equalize the situation. Running is always the number one option. However, that option may be unavailable if you are with your wife, girlfriend, kid's, etc. Now imagine this you are in a bar fight or any physical encounter and it goes to the ground and the other guy deploys a knife. Maybe you have a knife that you can deploy or not. Another scenario to think about is you are at home asleep and someone breaks into your house and you hear a noise and you pick up a tool ie. possibly a knife. (for me it will be ching ching pow) You walk around a corner and walla there is someone standing there with a knife in his hand and game is on. The potential for violence and possibility of a tool or tools entering into the equation is very high. Particularly when you think that we as human beings want in general to survive and most people will seek an advantage. ie. a tool.
> 
> The tool training that we utilize in IRT can be used whether I have a tool in my hand or not. The same movement applies either way. Just with different consequences.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Now here is a fun drill for you during your next BJJ class get some folding knife trainers and have each of your guy's have one in their waist band or belt. Then allow them to roll and if they want to pull out a knife. You might be blown away with what will happen.
> 
> 
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> Oh and to put something on the line a little the loser buy's the other guy a GI. That should get the adrenaline going as BJJ GI's cost a fortune. ( I should know I have a bunch )


 
1) i wholly disagree about kids.  if faced with a knife, i fully intend to shove the nearest kid between me & my attacker!  hopefully he will be cute enough that the guy won't stab him but hey, it's not my call.

2) i've heard of that folding knife drill & i think it would be much more realistic representation of what is likely to happen in a knife on knife encounter.  still, i'd be interested in knowing just how often it happens, even in an area where most folks carry a folder.

3) *ahem*, for the record, i teach shingitai jujitsu, not brazilian.  nothing against brazilian, i just like to give credit where it's due.

jf


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## Rich Parsons

jarrod said:


> interesting blog!
> 
> for my part, i actually prefer to be on the ground with a knife weilding attacker. this has more to do with my relative comfort on the ground rather than any sort of tactical advantage though. from a dominant top position it is relatively easy isolate the knife & attack from there. from the guard you can tie up their knife & attack their balance with your lower body. like i said though, it's relative to one's own skill set, & not a uniform approach i would recommend for everybody.
> 
> one drill i occasionally do with my students (they are sport/recreational grapplers but we touch on self-defense from time to time) is in the middle of a grappling match, a third person will throw a training knife on the mat to simulate an improvised weapon becoming available (broken bottle, knife that fell off the counter, whatever). they then have to decide whether to go for the blade or press their attack as is. it's a pretty interesting drill. sometimes we add mma gloves with striking, simulated eye gouges, bites, etc.
> 
> jf


 

Jarrod,

I have trained with some guys who were much better than me on the ground. The one thing common in all that training is that if I surprise them with a knife they all seem to get cut, and this leads to them being behind. 

Even knowing when there was a knife was going to be present we were not able to stop the blade even if one was in the mount. 


Are you willing to accept stabs to the leg to recognize the knife being present? Are you willing to take cuts and stabs to try to immobilize the weapon? 

I know from the bottom some times you have to do what you have to do, but if you are on the top, could you not get up and run away?





Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Jarrod,
> 
> In my county where I live probably 70% or more of the guy's walking around have a folding knife on them. So the chance of a knife encounter is possible and also a knife on knife encounter. I will concur with you that *a duel* where both know a knife is going to be involved is probably almost non existent in this day in age. Most attackers and that would include knife wielding attackers want an advantage. They do not want their prey having a tool to equalize the situation. Running is always the number one option. However, that option may be unavailable if you are with your wife, girlfriend, kid's, etc. Now imagine this you are in a bar fight or any physical encounter and it goes to the ground and the other guy deploys a knife. Maybe you have a knife that you can deploy or not. Another scenario to think about is you are at home asleep and someone breaks into your house and you hear a noise and you pick up a tool ie. possibly a knife. (for me it will be ching ching pow) You walk around a corner and walla there is someone standing there with a knife in his hand and game is on. The potential for violence and possibility of a tool or tools entering into the equation is very high. Particularly when you think that we as human beings want in general to survive and most people will seek an advantage. ie. a tool.
> 
> The tool training that we utilize in IRT can be used whether I have a tool in my hand or not. The same movement applies either way. Just with different consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now here is a fun drill for you during your next BJJ class get some folding knife trainers and have each of your guy's have one in their waist band or belt. Then allow them to roll and if they want to pull out a knife. You might be blown away with what will happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and to put something on the line a little the loser buy's the other guy a GI. That should get the adrenaline going as BJJ GI's cost a fortune. ( I should know I have a bunch )


 
The times I have had knife encounters and had my knife on me, I have not had time to get it out. I was always to busy dealing with the opponents weapon or the threat was not there. i.e. someone reaches for a knife while they are in a car over ten plus feet from me. 


I recommend this drill with folder trainers, as this forces people to learn to deploy their weapon form the ground and also to learn to defend against a weapon and not knowing if or when it might come.


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## Nolerama

Groundfighting with knives has always intrigued me. Thanks for blogging that, Brian. I think you would have to be even more aware that there's a knife when grappling.

*What would be more of a priority: securing your opponent's weapon, or taking him out with your weapon first?*

One of my friends said that if you're in bottom position, you might as well forget using a weapon. I disagreed, and entertained the thought with a push drill and an escrima stick. There's a lot of application for the stick while wrestling (even from guard: puno to the back of the head, chokes, etc.). I think the offensive possibilities multiply when one of the grapplers is using a live blade (vital organ strikes), but I don't think that would immediately disable the opponent.

I think I'm going to look into that more... My ground game completely changes when strikes are involved. It'll definitely change with a knife.


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## jarrod

Rich Parsons said:


> Jarrod,
> 
> I have trained with some guys who were much better than me on the ground. The one thing common in all that training is that if I surprise them with a knife they all seem to get cut, and this leads to them being behind.
> 
> Even knowing when there was a knife was going to be present we were not able to stop the blade even if one was in the mount.
> 
> 
> Are you willing to accept stabs to the leg to recognize the knife being present? Are you willing to take cuts and stabs to try to immobilize the weapon?
> 
> I know from the bottom some times you have to do what you have to do, but if you are on the top, could you not get up and run away?


 
sure, like i said before, running away is choice #1.  

the thing is, i've had the opposite experience.  meaning i've been on the ground unarmed against an opponent with a training blade, & taken few if any cuts.  unarmed on the feet, i've done okay but not as well.

also i may not have made my thoughts perfectly clear in my first post.  unarmed, starting on the feet, i'm not going to intentionally bring a knife wielding baddie to the ground.  to do that i would have to first secure the weapon, & if i can do that, why bring it to the ground?  what i meant was, if i am going to have a weapon presented on me i'd rather it be once i'm already in my most comfortable zone.  

jf


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## MA-Caver

Rich Parsons said:


> Jarrod,
> 
> I have trained with some guys who were much better than me on the ground. The one thing common in all that training is that if I surprise them with a knife they all seem to get cut, and this leads to them being behind.
> 
> Even knowing when there was a knife was going to be present we were not able to stop the blade even if one was in the mount.
> 
> 
> Are you willing to accept stabs to the leg to recognize the knife being present? Are you willing to take cuts and stabs to try to immobilize the weapon?
> 
> I know from the bottom some times you have to do what you have to do, but if you are on the top, could you not get up and run away?
> 
> The times I have had knife encounters and had my knife on me, I have not had time to get it out. I was always to busy dealing with the opponents weapon or the threat was not there. i.e. someone reaches for a knife while they are in a car over ten plus feet from me.
> 
> I recommend this drill with folder trainers, as this forces people to learn to deploy their weapon form the ground and also to learn to defend against a weapon and not knowing if or when it might come.


One encounter I've had showed me that my own knife "attacks" are savage and quick, rapidly stabbing at any target of opportunity, much like puncturing an airbag to deflate it as quickly as possible rather than going for finesse and subtlety. As Rich asked... if one is willing to take multiple hits to complete their technique then by all means, but you're going to the hospital and racking up your stitch count... if you survive the trip. 
On the ground or standing the key is *immobilizing* the immediate threat... the knife, you can roll over on it just as quick as getting stabbed/sliced by it. Get the blade OUT of the hand before trying anything else. 
All your punches, pressure points aren't going to mean squat if your opponent/attacker still has a free hand to move that knife point/edge about your body. A blindly slashing/stabbing blade can be just as damaging as one clearly targeted. 
One other thing to watch for... the knife hand switch... I've practiced during tv watching or whenever throwing my open blade from one hand to the next at varying distances/angles without watching the blade... so far I've yet to miss. The knife can just as easily switch from one hand to the next and back again... even on the ground. A fighter who is aware of everything during the heat of the moment may feel his opponent trying to subdue/restrain the hand holding the knife and make a quick flick of the wrist sending the blade to the other hand and ... well, there ya are.


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## Rich Parsons

jarrod said:


> sure, like i said before, running away is choice #1.
> 
> the thing is, i've had the opposite experience. meaning i've been on the ground unarmed against an opponent with a training blade, & taken few if any cuts. unarmed on the feet, i've done okay but not as well.
> 
> also i may not have made my thoughts perfectly clear in my first post. unarmed, starting on the feet, i'm not going to intentionally bring a knife wielding baddie to the ground. to do that i would have to first secure the weapon, & if i can do that, why bring it to the ground? what i meant was, if i am going to have a weapon presented on me i'd rather it be once i'm already in my most comfortable zone.
> 
> jf


 
Jarrod,

I will take you JJ as being much superior to any ground work I have done. What is the skill level of knife people attacking you? 

I mean there are three types to easily define. 

The Experts that know lots of baits and traps and make it hard for anyone even another expert to grapple with a knife on the ground. 

The Total Novice who just goes crazy and stabs wildly not knowing what to do.

The partially trained person who attacks in the predecribed way.

The first one may not be the person you meet most often.

The second is more realistic. 

The third is highly possible, but not what I train for. 

I mean no disrespect to your skill or training, I am just trying to see what I am missing.

Thanks


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## jks9199

MA-Caver said:


> One encounter I've had showed me that my own knife "attacks" are savage and quick, rapidly stabbing at any target of opportunity, much like puncturing an airbag to deflate it as quickly as possible rather than going for finesse and subtlety. As Rich asked... if one is willing to take multiple hits to complete their technique then by all means, but you're going to the hospital and racking up your stitch count... if you survive the trip.
> On the ground or standing the key is *immobilizing* the immediate threat... the knife, you can roll over on it just as quick as getting stabbed/sliced by it. Get the blade OUT of the hand before trying anything else.
> All your punches, pressure points aren't going to mean squat if your opponent/attacker still has a free hand to move that knife point/edge about your body. A blindly slashing/stabbing blade can be just as damaging as one clearly targeted.
> One other thing to watch for... the knife hand switch... I've practiced during tv watching or whenever throwing my open blade from one hand to the next at varying distances/angles without watching the blade... so far I've yet to miss. The knife can just as easily switch from one hand to the next and back again... even on the ground. A fighter who is aware of everything during the heat of the moment may feel his opponent trying to subdue/restrain the hand holding the knife and make a quick flick of the wrist sending the blade to the other hand and ... well, there ya are.


Great description of a knife attack!  I'd have repped you if I could've...

Rory Miller offered 4 rules of real violent attacks in his book, *Meditations on Violence*.  They are that real violence happens faster, closer, more unexpectedly, and with more force than you expect.  This applies at least equally in knife attacks.


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## Brian R. VanCise

No doubt about that.  Real fast and brutal.


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## tempus

I am far from being a knife fighter and have hardly any ground fighting experince, but found this topic interesting.  When we practice knife defenses rule number one is run if you can.  If forced to fight take control of the weapon.

Now I think all bets are off if the attacker is trainined knife fighter.  I was in a class one day doing knife defense drills and I had just read an article are knife fighting.  When I was attacking with a knife I would stab, technique was applied and defense was a success.  I then tried what I read in the article, before I attacked I threw a front leg kick, the defender instictivly blocked the kick and I stabbed him (rubber knife of course).  The next defender I faked a jabbed and the person instictivly blended on the punch and he got stabbed.  What we learned was that there was a gap in our training and muscle memory was actually a problem when not trained to defend from this type of combination.  Gave us something to think about.

-Gary


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## jarrod

right on ma-caver, good post.



Rich Parsons said:


> Jarrod,
> 
> I will take you JJ as being much superior to any ground work I have done. What is the skill level of knife people attacking you?
> 
> I mean there are three types to easily define.
> 
> The Experts that know lots of baits and traps and make it hard for anyone even another expert to grapple with a knife on the ground.
> 
> The Total Novice who just goes crazy and stabs wildly not knowing what to do.
> 
> The partially trained person who attacks in the predecribed way.
> 
> The first one may not be the person you meet most often.
> 
> The second is more realistic.
> 
> The third is highly possible, but not what I train for.
> 
> I mean no disrespect to your skill or training, I am just trying to see what I am missing.
> 
> Thanks


 
no disrespect taken.  

i've trained this with a variety of people, all of them with a fair amount of grappling experience & zero to moderate knife training.  

i think the main thing you're missing is grapplers that train way on a regular basis.  the first thing you want to do in a knife encounter is secure the weapon hand.  for me, this is easier if i'm already engaged in grappling: the distance is closed already.  i'm not saying i never get cut, but for me it's easier to secure the weapon than having to worry about closing the distance & secure the weapon at the same time.

jf


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## suicide

check this at 53 seconds


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## arnisador

Scary! And with limited ability to run, those are tough situations throughout that clip. Several of the attacks seem to amount to a scrum of assailants.


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## chav buster

jarrod said:


> interesting blog!
> 
> for my part, i actually prefer to be on the ground with a knife weilding attacker. this has more to do with my relative comfort on the ground rather than any sort of tactical advantage though. from a dominant top position it is relatively easy isolate the knife & attack from there. from the guard you can tie up their knife & attack their balance with your lower body. like i said though, it's relative to one's own skill set, & not a uniform approach i would recommend for everybody.
> 
> one drill i occasionally do with my students (they are sport/recreational grapplers but we touch on self-defense from time to time) is in the middle of a grappling match, a third person will throw a training knife on the mat to simulate an improvised weapon becoming available (broken bottle, knife that fell off the counter, whatever). they then have to decide whether to go for the blade or press their attack as is. it's a pretty interesting drill. sometimes we add mma gloves with striking, simulated eye gouges, bites, etc.
> 
> jf


 sounds like a pretty good drill especially if you go at it full bore!


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## lklawson

Well, I see that this thread has been resurrected so I might as well throw my $0.02 in.

Being both a grappler (Judo and C&E) and a knife fella (Bowie), here's my take on it.

Unarmed against a knife, you're borked.  You might get lucky (and training can help improve your luck but it's still luck) and capture the knife hand without getting hit too bad.  That's really your main goal if escape is not an option.  If you can capture the knife hand, then you've got an advantage.  However the advantage is at least as much, if not more psychological as physical.  You are best off keeping TWO hands on your opponents weapon limb because it's so darn easy for a person to twist out of a single handed grasp.  That leaves his "live hand" free for mayhem.  Sure it's not bladed mayhem but it'll get the job done nonetheless.  But most people won't think of it.  Can't count on that though.  FMA and SEAA represents an important and growing segment of MA training.

If you can chuck the opponent on the ground, well and good.  Lay your knees into him or take the boot to him.  Don't let go of your grasp though.  Your hamstring and femoral are easy targets for even an accidental wild slash (not to mention your dangly bits).

In this position, a two handed grasp that you don't to let go of can easily end up as ground grappling and a two handed grasp in ground grappling can be very advantageous.  The HUGE caveat is that if you engage in ground grappling, particularly the guard, and your opponent somehow manages to slip his weapon limb free, you've gone from the frying pan to the fire.  You're hosed.  There are some strategies you can use but they're iffy at best.  Of course, it's better than screaming like a little girl and wetting your pants, but still, iffy is iffy.

I agree with Jarrod, find a (improvised if necessary) weapon.  God made weapons to nullify the advantages of the other fella.  Empty hands are what you use while you try to get a weapon into play.  First thing you do is open the measure (distance) draw your concealed firearm and smoke off a few into him until he's no longer a threat.  From there you just go down the list.  No firearms?  Get a longer weapon like a club (cane, umbrella, barstool).  No clubs or ranged weapons?  Well, your knife might even the odds if you can deploy.

Wall fighting can be an effective element too.  Think of it similar to fighting up against the cage in MMA.  If you can slam your opponent to the wall, then you can dramatically impact his ability to move, nearly as much as you can on the ground.  Yet you retain the flexibility of remaining standing.

Yes, I agree, duel situations are exceedingly rare.  However, they DO sometimes happen.  They're worth a segment of your Self Defense training, even if it's just a small segment.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ron Kosakowski

Brian, I liked your blog.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I see you have a sense of practical thinking when it comes to a blade. Blade grappling, standing and on the ground is an area I like to focus on due to the fact it is worse case scenario. Not that longer range with an unorthodox crazy knife weilder is any more fun. In both, my Kuntao and Kali, I try to get my students the mentality to accept the fact that they will be cut and probably cut badly in a confrontation with a knife. Life is not like that picture sequence knife disarms you see in the magazines or on web sites. 

In our Kuntao classes, and this may seem crazy a little, when a person is testing we use a real sharp blade. they are told to keep going if they take a cut. Students also know this before they test. By knowing this ahead of time is a step closer to accepting the outcome. It still isn't that crazed knife weilder looking to cut your throat but one must make a martial art represent what goes on in actual combat as close as possible. 

By the way, in all the years doing and teaching Kuntao, only 2 people have taken a cut. Nothing bad. 
If you think I don't get nervous at each test well, I do!


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## CanFightIt

Grappling is argued to be one of the most effective ways to defeat your opponent on a 1 on 1 basis. 

Knifes usually are not balanced and when thrown have much chance of hitting their target. Either weapon though is a serious risk to a person and so that is why you avoid those situations whenever possible but practice dealing with them for years in the event that you are confronted with a weapon and have no way of avoiding it.

If you are confronted with a weapon then usually it is a combination of strikes, knees, elbows, punches, and kicks along with some joint lock type maneuvers that will enable you to gain control of the weapon rather than just one particular type of counter or technique.


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## lklawson

CanFightIt said:


> Grappling is argued to be one of the most effective ways to defeat your opponent on a 1 on 1 basis.


If you're a better grappler, sure.  I'll take my odds grappling against Joe Sixpack with no training outside of watching WWF.  Not so much against a Machado blackbelt.



> Knifes usually are not balanced and when thrown have much chance of hitting their target.


First, I agree that it's a stupid idea to throw your knife, especially if it is your only weapon.

Second, getting clubbed upside the head by an 8 oz. hunk of steel flying across the room isn't my idea of a good time, even if it doesn't "stick."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## arnisador

Ron Kosakowski said:


> In our Kuntao classes, and this may seem crazy a little, when a person is testing we use a real sharp blade.



I understand wanting them to have some real experience and overcome their fears, but...I don't agree with this policy!

(Oh, and where do you buy your club's insurance? )


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## Ron Kosakowski

arnisador said:


> I understand wanting them to have some real experience and overcome their fears, but...I don't agree with this policy!
> 
> (Oh, and where do you buy your club's insurance? )


I understand your thoughts on this. Of course, live slashing is done after many years in Kuntao. Stationary knife attacks (like robbery or hostage holding) is taught first...and done with a live blade. You can see some of this within this video 



 
There is subconscience care being done of course to some degree. Like i said, its to break that fear of steel. you use just a training knife with students and a different mentality appears during a real attack. The idea is to get as close to thr real deal as possible. Thats all we can do as martial art instructors.


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## BLACK LION

Screw the knife...  get to the guys brain to shut him off!!!!  I no longer look at the knife as an extension of the hand/arm but as an extension of ones will. Its a toll of assassination, not a deuling utensil.   You have to take away the ability for the brain to tell the arm to stab or slice you. If he is blind and asphyxiating then hes probably not going to be effective at knifing you.  If his scrotum is torn and has a broken ankle or knee his intent to stab or slice is out the window.   INJURY is the first priority securing the blade or any accomplices is a bi-product.   "Going to the ground" is not an option... "staying on the ground is forbidden"...  if you get knocked down you better be injuring them on the way down and on the way back up...  always assuming there are multiple attackers will solidify that principle.   Stay off the ground as much as possible but if you find your base compromised and you are on the ground you better be injuring your way back to your feet ready for his buddies to come running to help.   Wrestling-grappling-disarming the knife is dangerous play and could get you seriously injured or killed by them or by yourself...  

Injure them first. Injure them last. the blade itself is an inanimate object without a body behind it intent on using it.


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## Ron Kosakowski

BLACK LION said:


> Screw the knife... get to the guys brain to shut him off!!!! I no longer look at the knife as an extension of the hand/arm but as an extension of ones will. Its a toll of assassination, not a deuling utensil. You have to take away the ability for the brain to tell the arm to stab or slice you. If he is blind and asphyxiating then hes probably not going to be effective at knifing you. If his scrotum is torn and has a broken ankle or knee his intent to stab or slice is out the window. INJURY is the first priority securing the blade or any accomplices is a bi-product. "Going to the ground" is not an option... "staying on the ground is forbidden"... if you get knocked down you better be injuring them on the way down and on the way back up... always assuming there are multiple attackers will solidify that principle. Stay off the ground as much as possible but if you find your base compromised and you are on the ground you better be injuring your way back to your feet ready for his buddies to come running to help. Wrestling-grappling-disarming the knife is dangerous play and could get you seriously injured or killed by them or by yourself...
> 
> Injure them first. Injure them last. the blade itself is an inanimate object without a body behind it intent on using it.


Are you saying it is not possible to end up on the ground with a knife weider? We cannot ignore the possibility completely here. 

Some of the best knife oriented knife fighting systems have some sort of ground practice with and against a knife for that "just in case" situation. Malaysion, Indonesian and Filipino styles cover this area. 

In my past, i have had confrontations like many here have and never ended up on the ground with a weapon but it can occur. A few of us have ended up on the ground in class. Which means the possibility exists. Believe me, I hope it does not happen to me or anyone here but its good to practice just in case. Prevention is the best medicine. :asian:


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## BLACK LION

Ron Kosakowski said:


> Are you saying it is not possible to end up on the ground with a knife weider? We cannot ignore the possibility completely here.
> 
> Some of the best knife oriented knife fighting systems have some sort of ground practice with and against a knife for that "just in case" situation. Malaysion, Indonesian and Filipino styles cover this area.
> 
> In my past, i have had confrontations like many here have and never ended up on the ground with a weapon but it can occur. A few of us have ended up on the ground in class. Which means the possibility exists. Believe me, I hope it does not happen to me or anyone here but its good to practice just in case. Prevention is the best medicine. :asian:


 
I am not saying that you cant end up on the ground... you could alreday be there as a hostage or it could be a female in bed with a stranger or a person tied up in a chair or sitting in a car...the possibilites of where  you could be when the blade comes out are endless...   but all I am saying is that its about where you should be....  training should consist of getting yourself out of that compromising position as soon and as vicious as possible being completely unreasonable and unwilling to compromise completely...  there is a difference btween being on the ground and staying there... staying there is complete compromise and is not something I am completely unwilling to do....   evasion and escape would be my poa and if I have to cut -tear-rip -break-crack-crush to get there I will.    

I for one always have a blade...unless I am in the shower or in bed(I have my 1911 handy)  I carry a larged fixed blade and 1 or two concealed folders... one in the small of my back and one in my pelvic area... so If I need to use it I can but at the same time I know my body weapons can affectuate ample damage to get me out alive as well...    

I just dont train to be like " oh sheet there is a knife" or "oh sheet I have a knife"...  I train to effect injury regardless of whats available to me at the moment... it could merely be a rock or a pencil...


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## BLACK LION

I respect all of you guys by the way and I dont troll from forum to forum picking and peddling. I come here becuase you guys are professional about everything and I can appreciate that.


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## Ron Kosakowski

BLACK LION said:


> I respect all of you guys by the way and I dont troll from forum to forum picking and peddling. I come here becuase you guys are professional about everything and I can appreciate that.


Bro, you have my deepest respect. i like what you say and the way you train. We seem to be on the same page here.:asian:

You would fit well in my school.


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## BLACK LION

It would be an honor, my friend.


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## Combatives

jks9199 said:


> Personally -- I'd discourage going to the ground if you're unarmed against a knife. You lose too much mobility, and you add the complication of simply falling on the blade against the ground.
> 
> If you're unarmed fighting someone with a knife -- I think you want as much mobility as you can get. Of course, I get a little unorthodox in some of my unarmed defense against weapons... I don't worry much about the weapon, and go straight to the user!
> 
> If you're both armed with a knife... I still don't like the idea of going down... too easy to get that blade caught in a useless position...
> 
> Of course, what I like doesn't have a bit to do with what might happen -- but if I have to grapple with a knife, I want to stay on my feet more than go down. Ideally -- I don't want to grapple at all with a knife... And if I go down -- you have to remember that an escape that pulls the limb out could leave you cut... You think two sweaty people are slick... blood's worse!


 
-----------
If you do not have a knife your best self-defense is turning the other way and running. But if you cannot do this - because of your family, friend, etc. is in danger - I would not grapple nor try to throw a person with a knife. Try it and you will see that there are too many chances to get hit. The simpler, the better.
Block, hold the attackers knife hand with both hands, if possible, Then kick, hit, etc. depending on the situation, angle, etc. that presents itself.


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## lklawson

Combatives said:


> -----------
> If you do not have a knife your best self-defense is turning the other way and running. But if you cannot do this - because of your family, friend, etc. is in danger - I would not grapple nor try to throw a person with a knife.
> [...]
> hold the attackers knife hand with both hands, if possible,


That *IS* grappling.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## chav buster

you have to look at martial arts and think why theres really none who teach you to grappling with knifes and my conclution is beacuse you would be dead.


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## lklawson

chav buster said:


> you have to look at martial arts and think why theres really none who teach you to grappling with knifes


It's dirt common in Aikido, Silat, and FMA.



> and my conclution is beacuse you would be dead.


That may, in fact, be the outcome, nevertheless, the fact is that lots of martial arts teach various levels of grappling against a knife.  Heck, Tomiki Aikido has a whole system of randori based around the practice; Tanto Randori.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## BLACK LION

The knife or sharp object means nothing with out a driving force behind it intent on making hamburger out of you or someone else... 
 The snap on tool is not the focus... the driving force is the focus which is the brain and the body...  If his brain is too busy responding to the lack of air from a crushed trachea the knife becomes useless... if the brain is too busy reacting to a severed optical nerve after an eyeball is popped out then the knife is useless... if the brain is too busy responding to a ruptured testicle then again the tool is useless....   a broken kneck or spine and so on and so forth one after another after another until one is satisfied....     
the focus is effecting trauma on whats really dangerous...  assume you are gonna get cut anyway but intent on getting to that core and shutting it down...  that ruthless determination to act and force throught the threat or threats until they cease to exists.... regardless of whats at stake...   if you concentrate on the blade and all the mysticism it harbors then you may very well meet with it as you feared and find yourself cold and  lonely as your life juices flood the pavement...  

screw the tool... get to the operator...      I look at it like machines...or engines or whatever...   

Fuel-Air-Spark 

fuel- being the drive or intent or will or the body as a machine
Air- being the ability to breath or take in oxygen
Spark- being the heart or the brain or the spine


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## lklawson

BLACK LION said:


> The knife or sharp object means nothing with out a driving force behind it intent on making hamburger out of you or someone else...
> The snap on tool is not the focus... the driving force is the focus which is the brain and the body... If his brain is too busy responding to the lack of air from a crushed trachea the knife becomes useless... if the brain is too busy reacting to a severed optical nerve after an eyeball is popped out then the knife is useless... if the brain is too busy responding to a ruptured testicle then again the tool is useless.... a broken kneck or spine and so on and so forth one after another after another until one is satisfied....
> the focus is effecting trauma on whats really dangerous... assume you are gonna get cut anyway but intent on getting to that core and shutting it down... that ruthless determination to act and force throught the threat or threats until they cease to exists.... regardless of whats at stake... if you concentrate on the blade and all the mysticism it harbors then you may very well meet with it as you feared and find yourself cold and lonely as your life juices flood the pavement...


Works great... when it works.

The problem is that the human body is resiliant and, frequently, doen't realize it's been injured, even mortally injured.  I read of an incident where a LEO dumped 6 00 buck slugs into a suspects heart, damaging it to the point where it no longer functioned, and he still had enough oxygen to brain and muscles and adrenalin in the system to run into the parking lot to play hide-n-seek until he passed out from lack of blood flow and subsequently died.  They found him dead hiding behind a car.

There are lots of cases like this.  Yes, if you can do enough mechanical damage, such as major joint breaks (like the knees), then you can create a "stop" even if the agressor doesn't know he's injured.  The problem is that you HAVE to do that.  Crushing the trach is great and all but he still has up to a few minutes of functional opperation where he can continue attacking until his restricted air flow causes him to pass out from lack of oxygen.  It's a heck of a long time to be dodging a knife.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad strategy.  I'm saying that it's not a magic pill.  You still have to worry about the knife.  If you can capture the knife AND do mechanical/structural damage, that's ideal (outside of of escaping, of course).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## BLACK LION

I agree...   I heard of an incident where a threat was so high on pcp that he had castrated himself and was walking around with a blade and his genitalia taunting police...  this is why you must continue to effect trauma and injury until they cease function...  that buck didnt work right away but maybe he could have used a couple for the head... and if that didnt work then empty the sidearm mag in em too...  just dont stop till the jobs done...  

You are right.. there is no magical juice to drink thats makes everything foolproof... but  with the assertive and decisive action to get them before they get you is what makes or breaks ...   being completely unreasonable and unwilling to compromise no matter the cost...   in combat and  in survival its always about You... ALWAYS... you, you, you...   If I am faced with a threat I am intent on stopping it and I will...  regardless of the odd or circumstances or whatever..    I will stop them....


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## BLACK LION

again... my respect to all of you!


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## Ron Kosakowski

BLACK LION said:


> I agree... I heard of an incident where a threat was so high on pcp that he had castrated himself and was walking around with a blade and his genitalia taunting police... this is why you must continue to effect trauma and injury until they cease function... that buck didnt work right away but maybe he could have used a couple for the head... and if that didnt work then empty the sidearm mag in em too... just dont stop till the jobs done...
> 
> You are right.. there is no magical juice to drink thats makes everything foolproof... but with the assertive and decisive action to get them before they get you is what makes or breaks ... being completely unreasonable and unwilling to compromise no matter the cost... in combat and in survival its always about You... ALWAYS... you, you, you... If I am faced with a threat I am intent on stopping it and I will... regardless of the odd or circumstances or whatever.. I will stop them....


I guess if I run across someone attacking me high on PCP, I am going to wonder why I am having such a bad day.:erg: 

All blade oriented martial arts have a grappling aspect to it, the Japanese, Filipino, Indian, Indonesian. My Kuntao teacher use to say this..."you practice these moves in technique, in random drill format and live the best you can so you are scenario training." Scenario training has saved many lives for combat situations. He also used to say that "you have a very good chance of getting cut if not killed." Which can happen weapon VS weapon as well. One little mistake and you are ____ed against someone who is desperate and wants to kill you. 

There is a science to it. Not everyone has knife skills out there luckily. But everyone here has to admit, its better to practice it than to ignore the training methods. Most empty hand VS weapon was always practiced to get to an equalizer. I recommend having an equalizer...or two.


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## BLACK LION

_"There is a science to it. Not everyone has knife skills out there luckily. But everyone here has to admit, its better to practice it than to ignore the training methods. Most empty hand VS weapon was always practiced to get to an equalizer. I recommend having an equalizer...or two. "  _

+1 on that. 

Reality and Actuality scenario training is paramount and imo the only way to gain combative experience outside of actual combat.  Force of Force training is a must for me as well.  

I like to split reality and actuality up.  Reality is based on a persons perception so whatever we stage as part of the scenario is based on what one perceives could happen to them.  
Actuality on the other hand is completely at random and based purely on what actually happens.   I like to look at one as controlled and the other as uncontrolled.
For example: Reality scenario may set a body next to you with a gun to your head or a knife to your back and have you act from there... basically whatever you can come up with as a way of being attacked and set it up that way.  
Actuality scenario is at random and not staged...it would have everything as normal then out of the blue a handshake or some social greeting turns into them pulling a knife and trying to gut you with it.   I have been doing this at work lately where I carry a tiny airsoft pistol or a rubber knife and just socialize as normal, then out of the blue try to stab or shoot one of them...  they all know me and what I do and besides that I have ex military and bunjinkan practitioners I work with so its fair game.   

just some thoughts....


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## Ron Kosakowski

BLACK LION said:


> _"There is a science to it. Not everyone has knife skills out there luckily. But everyone here has to admit, its better to practice it than to ignore the training methods. Most empty hand VS weapon was always practiced to get to an equalizer. I recommend having an equalizer...or two. " _
> 
> +1 on that.
> 
> Reality and Actuality scenario training is paramount and imo the only way to gain combative experience outside of actual combat. Force of Force training is a must for me as well.
> 
> I like to split reality and actuality up. Reality is based on a persons perception so whatever we stage as part of the scenario is based on what one perceives could happen to them.
> Actuality on the other hand is completely at random and based purely on what actually happens. I like to look at one as controlled and the other as uncontrolled.
> For example: Reality scenario may set a body next to you with a gun to your head or a knife to your back and have you act from there... basically whatever you can come up with as a way of being attacked and set it up that way.
> Actuality scenario is at random and not staged...it would have everything as normal then out of the blue a handshake or some social greeting turns into them pulling a knife and trying to gut you with it. I have been doing this at work lately where I carry a tiny airsoft pistol or a rubber knife and just socialize as normal, then out of the blue try to stab or shoot one of them... they all know me and what I do and besides that I have ex military and bunjinkan practitioners I work with so its fair game.
> 
> just some thoughts....


Yes, we have an airsoft gun at the school. We used to use squirt guns and dart guns and various other toy gun but the airsoft is great...with safety glasses of course. You may like this idea. i use the Sharkee training knives which are only 15 bucks a piece. There are the open folder knives that pretty much represent most of what we all legally carry. Then there is the bigger double edged type. (here is what they look like http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/TrainingKnives.html) I put a red lipstick on a With these trainers with the lipstick we can go much harder and more random than we can with the real knives. We go at it pretty good with the real knives but there is a sense of uncomfortableness with the knife weilder. I know, because I also feel uncomfortable doing it with the real knife. the recieving side, i feel more comfortable believe it or not...knowing i can ruin someones day and mark them for life or worse is the uncomfortable feeling. but with the trainers and the lipstick you can still get the same point across (no pun intended). Try it out on any trainer, wood, rubber, plastic. the bigger the lipstick mark, the bigger the slash and then its time to problem solve. Hmmm, how many out there will have to explain the lipstick on their necks at home? More reason to be successful in your training? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





However, as an instructor, I still feel the need to break my students of the fear of steel so a real knife is needed at least occassionally for mentality training.


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## BLACK LION

Whats that forder called again??? The sharkee trainer??? I have or found everything I need in terms of tools accept practice folders. Thats great cuz I was about to try 100 mph tabe on a dull blade folder and see if that worked.  I also like the lipstick idea. I know they have trainers out there with some red felt stuff in it that marks you all up when contacted with it.  
There is a time and place for using real blades I feel so I too dont cut them out entirely  .... I like the bendable rubber ones because they still hurt a little and they are like 3.00 each so you can equip eveyone with thier own so anyone can get it at anytime during training... So you have it staged and then you have it at random.  I know some people come to train with and against the blade but do not carry one on them at all times outside of training...I like to get everyone who trains in the habit of carrying all the time. 1 concealed folder and one open carry fixed blade.  

I am really jazzed about those folders you menioned!!!


I use an array of airsoft and replica firearms in the training. Some spring loaded and some with co2.  I use what one may commonly come across and that is a revolver- a DA semi auto pistol(glock type)- an SA automatic pistol (colt-browning type) - a pump action shotgun (pistol grip-no stock) 
- an ak47 type- an smg type = mp5- and an m16 type-  
I also am fancy to those foam louisville slugger replicas at walmart for 5.00... they look like a bat feel like a bat but are soft enough not to injure anyone... just a little pain  as a reminder


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## Carol

Colored chalk or kids washable paint works too...and is usually easier to clean up than lipstick.


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## Ron Kosakowski

BLACK LION said:


> Whats that forder called again??? The sharkee trainer??? I have or found everything I need in terms of tools accept practice folders. Thats great cuz I was about to try 100 mph tabe on a dull blade folder and see if that worked. I also like the lipstick idea. I know they have trainers out there with some red felt stuff in it that marks you all up when contacted with it.


Yes, they are called Sharkee due to the shark fin designs in the mid section of the blade itself. I like them because they do not bend like rubber and they still give enough pain to respect the blade when fighting or doing the stationary robbery or hostage situations with resistance. 

Pop on the TFW site and take a look at them.


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## Ron Kosakowski

Carol Kaur said:


> Colored chalk or kids washable paint works too...and is usually easier to clean up than lipstick.


I like the washable paint idea. Lipstick comes out in the wash but stays on no matter what during class.

As for the chalk...I am not sure I like that unless there is a furry cloth type of padding of some sort along the edge to hold in the chalk. Most training knives are bare edged lipstick holds well.


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## Dwight McLemore

For me and just my humble thoughts as a teacher and retired instructor, I cannot understand why anyone would not want to teach knife grappling as part of their curriculum.  It seems to me that even back in the days of the duel fights broke out, people went to the ground and it was not a matter of 'if' but 'When'.  Logic says to be prepared for it.  Now, that said I also don't see why the squared-off dueling confrontation is not taught either.  Yep, the odds of this happening in the culture of the MMA do suggest that it's not as likely but there are parts of the world where people do square off and fight over 'bull-****' .  A Spanish fellow gets out of his car and confronts you with a machete....yep, you just went into the dueling scenario.  I think one has to set up training priorities as to whether he is doing historic, martial arts, martial sports, self defense, or is preparing for the profession of arms like the military, law enforcement, etc.  That I believe is an on-going thing.  


All My Best
Dwight


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## sgtmac_46

Knife grappling would seem an obvious subject of study for anyone interested in self defense..........as the obvious counter to being in a bad position on the ground in the street is to draw a weapon and cut your way out.........even the most effective rear naked choke, with hooks dug in deep, can be effectively counter if the man getting choked manages to extricate a knife and slice a femoral artery.

In my law enforcement defensive tactics program I train officers to use the muscle and meat shot to the thigh in a situation where they are being choked (repeat as needed).


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## lklawson

sgtmac_46 said:


> Knife grappling would seem an obvious subject of study for anyone interested in self defense..........


Additionally, there's tons of documentation that it was an important part of many historic knife fighting systems.  Degen has already been mentioned, for example.




> as the obvious counter to being in a bad position on the ground in the street is to draw a weapon and cut your way out.........even the most effective rear naked choke, with hooks dug in deep, can be effectively counter if the man getting choked manages to extricate a knife and slice a femoral artery.


Sure thing.  At that point, the question is, will he bleed out before you pass out?  It's kinda up in the air, but I wouldn't bet money that you wouldn't pass out first.  That'd be bad.  He may still have several seconds to take revenge upon you before he bleeds out.  However, there are several things you can do with that knife that will, um... "encourage" him to leg go of the choke.  



> In my law enforcement defensive tactics program I train officers to use the muscle and meat shot to the thigh in a situation where they are being choked (repeat as needed).


It's better (by a long shot) than simply passing out, that's for darn sure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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