# Club Defense: Kenpo And Non Kenpo



## MJS

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The first 1 is one of Kenpos club defenses. The other 2 are Krav Maga and a RBSD group. As always, I'm putting this out to Kenpo as well as non Kenpo folks, to discuss. Not intending to bash one art or the other, but instead to discuss the practicality or lack of, in what I posted.


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## Tony Dismukes

I've got some issues with all of these, but the first video has huge, glaring problems.  

Look at where the defender starts out standing in the first video.  Now look at the position of the attackers hand at the end of his swing.  That's right.  The attacker isn't actually swinging the length of the club like any real-life assailant (trained or not) would.  He's actually performing a straight-armed hammer fist.  If the defender didn't move at all he would get hit by the pommel of the stick, or possibly even the attackers wrist.

What that means practically is that the footwork and angling for the technique is all wrong, since the attacker is about 2 feet closer than he would be in real life.  

There's also the issue that the attacker extends his stick arm out and then just stops so that the defender can control it. No one will ever attack you with a stick like that.  Whether trained or untrained, the natural use for a stick is to swing it in an arc.  If the attacker is swinging downwards and the defender brings his hand over top the stick following the downward arc, he will not catch up to the attacker's wrist.  No way, no how.

You can try it for yourself.  Get a padded training stick.  Tell your partner that you are going to attack with a downwards strike, but keep a realistic distance and aim so the last 6 inches of the stick would connect with your partner's head and then swing hard and fast, carrying the swing through in a complete arc that brings your stick back to guard.  Have your partner try to perform the defense as demonstrated.  See what happens.


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## MJS

My apologies.  I had to edit my OP, as I mistakenly posted an incorrect clip. The initial Kenpo clip I posted was an unarmed defense, against a push.  I have now posted the clip that I had intially intended. 

Anyways...I agree with Tony.  In 2 of the clips that I posted, it seems to me anyways, that the attacker is stopping their swing, rather than giving a more real feeling, and following thru.  I didn't get that impression from the Krav Maga clip that I posted.  The last clip, while it seems that the swing was being cut short, what I like about the 2nd and 3rd clips, is the idea of moving in.  Move in, get control of the weapon arm and attack.  Simple and to the point.  The 1st clip...IMO, if someone is swinging hard and fast, I'm not seeing how the arm could be grabbed.  I could almost justify the idea of moving off to the side, and kicking, however, there is no control of the weapon.  

Anyone else have any thoughts, comments, etc?


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## K-man

I agree totally. The downward attack is not realistic. A real attack will take the stick right down towards the ground. If his strike fails (ie deflected), the attacker then has two options to continue the attack. First, he can lift the stick straight back up or, more likely, he will continue the movement across his body, up and into a downward slash. Second thing I don't like is the kicking. It is not a natural response to the attack so under pressure it is likely to fail.  The body is turning as the parry is made so logically to me is to smash an open palm to the face or even follow through with a take down with the right bicep striking the neck.

Krav defence is much better. Much more natural body movement and simple.

RBSD method is also problematic. I like the arm trap but why pull back to strip the stick? He has the arm trapped so he can continue on with the body rotation to take his attacker to the ground, knee to chest, then strip the stick. He actually releases the attacker before punching. That is poor technique for more than one reason.

Sometimes people think they have to add all sorts of bells and whistles to show how good they are, when all that is required is a simple, reflex type, response.    :asian:


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## Gentle Fist

Close the gap and catch the attack early on...   

I would say Video 2 (Krav) is the closest to what we do in NCK for club defense.  Video 1 (EPAK) looks to much based on timing, which is something you don't want to rely on during a potentially deadly attack.  Video 3 (RB) has a decent entry regarding lowering the head but the stripping of the stick should be after neutralizing/breaking your attacker first...

Thanks for the videos!


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## Josh Oakley

Out of curiosity, who here has actually encountered someone swinging a blunt object downward at them? I haven't, and my thought would be that, though they obviously wouldn't hold the stick out there, they wouldn't swing it all the war to the ground;they would hit, pull back, and hit again, then repeat. 

I could be wrong though. Like I said, it has never happened to me.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Josh Oakley

Gentle Fist said:


> Close the gap and catch the attack early on...
> 
> I would say Video 2 (Krav) is the closest to what we do in NCK for club defense.  Video 1 (EPAK) looks to much based on timing, which is something you don't want to rely on during a potentially deadly attack.  Video 3 (RB) has a decent entry regarding lowering the head but the stripping of the stick should be after neutralizing/breaking your attacker first...
> 
> Thanks for the videos!



I don't know. The way I was taught Checking The Storm (video 1),  the main focus is getting off of the line of attack and kicking them in the junk. Seems like a pretty ubiquitous concept.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Gentle Fist

Josh Oakley said:


> I don't know. The way I was taught Checking The Storm (video 1),  the main focus is getting off of the line of attack and kicking them in the junk. Seems like a pretty ubiquitous concept.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Getting off the line is essential for any attack, I agree with you there.  My comment regarding "timing" is in reference to striking (punching) at a fast as well as small moving object (the arm).  I would rather wrap or "stuff" the arm before it has a chance to travel downward.  In video 1, the guy is already more than halfway down the path of travel before the defender engages...

Just my experience


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## Josh Oakley

Good point.

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## Thesemindz

Josh Oakley said:


> I don't know. The way I was taught Checking The Storm (video 1),  the main focus is getting off of the line of attack and kicking them in the junk. Seems like a pretty ubiquitous concept.



This is the essential lesson of Checking the Storm as I was taught it and as I teach it. It's about getting out of the way of the weapon, which we then practice in every direction. We also have techniques where we move in or catch the weapon or jam the weapon, but this one is specifically about getting out of the way. Foot counters, hand counters, the lesson here is don't get hit with the club.


-Rob


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## Tony Dismukes

Josh Oakley said:


> I don't know. The way I was taught Checking The Storm (video 1), the main focus is getting off of the line of attack and kicking them in the junk. Seems like a pretty ubiquitous concept.



Were you taught it the way it's shown in the video, with the attacker over-extending the swing so that he would be hitting with his hand rather than with the stick?  That messed up ranging is what enables the defender to step sideways and still be in range for the groin kick.


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## MJS

Josh Oakley said:


> Out of curiosity, who here has actually encountered someone swinging a blunt object downward at them? I haven't, and my thought would be that, though they obviously wouldn't hold the stick out there, they wouldn't swing it all the war to the ground;they would hit, pull back, and hit again, then repeat.
> 
> I could be wrong though. Like I said, it has never happened to me.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



In real life....not yet.   In an Arnis class, during a sparring session, yes, many times...lol.  I've had both of the strikes done, that you mention.  I suppose if we were to use an empty hand striking analogy, it'd go something like this:  the hit, pull back, hit, pull back, would be akin to a quick jab.  The full swing, more like a cross.  I could see the hit, pull back method used more during a clinch.  Watch a Dog Bros. clip.  You'll see both.


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## Doc

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've got some issues with all of these, but the first video has huge, glaring problems.
> 
> Look at where the defender starts out standing in the first video.  Now look at the position of the attackers hand at the end of his swing.  That's right.  The attacker isn't actually swinging the length of the club like any real-life assailant (trained or not) would.  He's actually performing a straight-armed hammer fist.  If the defender didn't move at all he would get hit by the pommel of the stick, or possibly even the attackers wrist.
> 
> What that means practically is that the footwork and angling for the technique is all wrong, since the attacker is about 2 feet closer than he would be in real life.
> 
> There's also the issue that the attacker extends his stick arm out and then just stops so that the defender can control it. No one will ever attack you with a stick like that.  Whether trained or untrained, the natural use for a stick is to swing it in an arc.  If the attacker is swinging downwards and the defender brings his hand over top the stick following the downward arc, he will not catch up to the attacker's wrist.  No way, no how.
> 
> You can try it for yourself.  Get a padded training stick.  Tell your partner that you are going to attack with a downwards strike, but keep a realistic distance and aim so the last 6 inches of the stick would connect with your partner's head and then swing hard and fast, carrying the swing through in a complete arc that brings your stick back to guard.  Have your partner try to perform the defense as demonstrated.  See what happens.


Yep.


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## Doc

MJS said:


> In real life....not yet.   In an Arnis class, during a sparring session, yes, many times...lol.  I've had both of the strikes done, that you mention.  I suppose if we were to use an empty hand striking analogy, it'd go something like this:  the hit, pull back, hit, pull back, would be akin to a quick jab.  The full swing, more like a cross.  I could see the hit, pull back method used more during a clinch.  Watch a Dog Bros. clip.  You'll see both.


Factor in the difference between a light broom handle/rattan stick, vesus a bludgeon which the technique is actually designed for. An object heavy enough that if you were really attempting to do some damage, would be difficult to stop. "Stick" techniques are different and Arnis does a good job with them, but not to be confused with wielding a bludgeon with one hand, no matter what the angle, and "quiet as kept," I wouldn't want to get hit by either.


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## MJS

Doc said:


> Factor in the difference between a light broom handle/rattan stick, vesus a bludgeon which the technique is actually designed for. An object heavy enough that if you were really attempting to do some damage, would be difficult to stop. "Stick" techniques are different and Arnis does a good job with them, but not to be confused with wielding a bludgeon with one hand, no matter what the angle, and "quiet as kept," I wouldn't want to get hit by either.



Question Doc:  If the weapon was heavy, ie: a baseball bat, I'd imagine that to get the most bang for your buck, so to speak, that it's going to be swung with 2 hands.  That said, all of the "Storm" techs that I've seen, are typically done with a lighter stick and using 1 hand.  Why are they taught with a lighter, 1 handed swing?  If they were in fact changed, what should the tech look like, in order to deal with a 2 handed swing?


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## punisher73

I'm not Doc, but here is a quick video that explains alot of what was meant by "club" in the original techniques.  As Doc has pointed out, it was not a lightweight stick.


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## Zoran

Lack of critical distance and realistic attack. 

One thing we did a couple of decades ago is use a padded stick to test our techs. We pretty much failed miserably and often found ourselves eating it. A lot of it had to do with critical distance. If the person did not need to step in to hit you, then they did not step in. This created a much faster attack that became difficult to react to. Also, if the attacker is very close, as in empty hand range, the attacker will move back as they swing that stick. 

The other problem was the footwork. If you use the same footwork as in Calming the Storm _(right foot step in as roundhouse right club)_, there could be a problem if you misread the attack _(or a purposely deceptive attack)_ that will end up knee capping you on the left leg because it never moves out of the way. Easily fixed by moving the left leg first and using a cross step footwork. The footwork will also adjust the extra distance created by a more realistic critical distance and can be easily added to techs like calming the storm.


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## MJS

So, in a nutshell, the techs were designed to deal with a shorter, heavier impact weapon, whether its swung with 1 hand or 2.  So, as for the question I asked before...since it seems like the lighter, rattan stick is whats commonly used, does anything need to be changed to deal with the heavier weapon?


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## Thesemindz

MJS said:


> So, in a nutshell, the techs were designed to deal with a shorter, heavier impact weapon, whether its swung with 1 hand or 2.  So, as for the question I asked before...since it seems like the lighter, rattan stick is whats commonly used, does anything need to be changed to deal with the heavier weapon?



Well, you could just train your club attacks against weapons of a variety of sizes and shapes, using realistic attacks and resistance. That's what I do.

I once performed Obstructing the Storm to defend myself against someone trying to hit me over the head with a chair. Worked just fine. When I'm practicing club techniques with my students, as a general rule I use light escrima type "sticks" for the horizontal attacks and heavier, shorter, kenpo type "clubs" for the overhead attacks. But sometimes I just use whatever I have at hand, or do the old "two finger" substitute if I don't happen to have anything stick-like where I'm training. But I've also practiced these attacks against maglights, and beer bottles, and baseball bats. The basic premise of all good club defenses, regardless of the system they stem from, IS DON'T GET HIT BY THE CLUB. Keep that foremost in your mind, and you won't go wrong in your training. I recommend using all different kinds of weapons in your training so you can get an idea of how to apply these techniques in a wide variety of scenarios.

The problem, in my experience, is rarely the techniques. It's almost always the instruction, and the training.


-Rob


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## Christian Soldier

Checking the Storm is a pretty legitimate club defence. Don't judge the merit of a techniqe based on one bad attacker. It's designed for new MAist who's first instinct *isn't* to jump into the action like obstrucitng the storm or capturing the storm. Thier instinct is to get out of the way. The best thing we can do is channel that instinct, get out of the way into a cat stance, add a double parry (more of a check really preping for the follow up swing), and throw a kick to stop the action and then finish them off. Checking the storm is one of the best kenpo techniques against a full force club attack for a begginer.


The other vids had some merit and I really liked some of the krav stuff. The only thing I wouldn't really suggest someone do is the disarm where you perry the club and guide it and tuck it into your arm. Again- as others said- the best way to see if these techniques will work is to try them out with a padded club near full force. Hopping out of the way and kicking them in the crotch will work and- although I'm sure it's possible under some circumstances- parrying a full force overhead strike and tucking it under your arm will be very difficult to do without cracking a few ribs. The disarm works well, it's just getting the club there without first stopping the action that's the hard part. 

If you change the the parry to a block, and punch the guy in the face at the same time- now that the club has ceased moving- you could do that disarm. Then you just have Securing the Storm.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> So, in a nutshell, the techs were designed to deal with a shorter, heavier impact weapon, whether its swung with 1 hand or 2.  So, as for the question I asked before...since it seems like the lighter, rattan stick is whats commonly used, does anything need to be changed to deal with the heavier weapon?



Yes. The permitted intensity of the training model. Lotta kenpo out there trained at gentlemens distances, on gentlemens terms. Not one is busting out a bunch of hairy testosterone, and bull-rushing the other guy -- either the attacker, or the defender. Turn the the intensity about 80%, maintain control in spite of increased intensity, and a lot of the issues become either transparent, or self-correcting.

Miss my "whumpa-thump"... thick wooden dowel of heavy oak, dimensions of a ball bat, with several layers of towels and foam padding duct-taped to it. Then go balls to the wall. God help the guy who doesn't move well enough and fast enough, whether footwork, hands, positioning, or any combination of all of it. That think would break and arm if it caught you just right. 

After lotsa kenpo, lotsa Arnis, etc., it ultimately boils down to one of the FEW things that makes me glad I point sparred a lot. Dance in; dance out; press his guard into his body and take your shot. The in-and-out lunging in point sparring, combined with the developed skills in competitive applications of pinning checks and sniping shot, methinks it's one of the best approaches to dealing with bludgeons and bats to be had. Cross between a champ point fighter, the Krav videos approach, and a mad bull elephant rushing a competitor in the bush, and were getting close to some viable approaches.


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## Doc

MJS said:


> My apologies.  I had to edit my OP, as I mistakenly posted an incorrect clip. The initial Kenpo clip I posted was an unarmed defense, against a push.  I have now posted the clip that I had intially intended.
> 
> Anyways...I agree with Tony.  In 2 of the clips that I posted, it seems to me anyways, that the attacker is stopping their swing, rather than giving a more real feeling, and following thru.  I didn't get that impression from the Krav Maga clip that I posted.  The last clip, while it seems that the swing was being cut short, what I like about the 2nd and 3rd clips, is the idea of moving in.  Move in, get control of the weapon arm and attack.  Simple and to the point.  The 1st clip...IMO, if someone is swinging hard and fast, I'm not seeing how the arm could be grabbed.  I could almost justify the idea of moving off to the side, and kicking, however, there is no control of the weapon.
> 
> Anyone else have any thoughts, comments, etc?


You covered it pretty well. I've found in Kenpo Karate many have "techniques" they think they know, and reverse engineer the attack to fit what they want to do, instead of solve the real problem of the attack itself. That is a staple of the "Two-Guys doing Kenpo" franchise videos we see all the time. Lots of chatter, and virtually no substance.


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## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Yes. The permitted intensity of the training model. Lotta kenpo out there trained at gentlemens distances, on gentlemens terms. Not one is busting out a bunch of hairy testosterone, and bull-rushing the other guy -- either the attacker, or the defender. Turn the the intensity about 80%, maintain control in spite of increased intensity, and a lot of the issues become either transparent, or self-correcting.
> 
> Miss my "whumpa-thump"... thick wooden dowel of heavy oak, dimensions of a ball bat, with several layers of towels and foam padding duct-taped to it. Then go balls to the wall. God help the guy who doesn't move well enough and fast enough, whether footwork, hands, positioning, or any combination of all of it. That think would break and arm if it caught you just right.
> 
> After lotsa kenpo, lotsa Arnis, etc., it ultimately boils down to one of the FEW things that makes me glad I point sparred a lot. Dance in; dance out; press his guard into his body and take your shot. The in-and-out lunging in point sparring, combined with the developed skills in competitive applications of pinning checks and sniping shot, methinks it's one of the best approaches to dealing with bludgeons and bats to be had. Cross between a champ point fighter, the Krav videos approach, and a mad bull elephant rushing a competitor in the bush, and were getting close to some viable approaches.


Some are confusing the light whipping rattan "sticks" for the "bludgeons" the techniques are supposed to work against.


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## Doc

punisher73 said:


> I'm not Doc, but here is a quick video that explains alot of what was meant by "club" in the original techniques.  As Doc has pointed out, it was not a lightweight stick.


You're not Doc? Wait! Uh, never mind I need some rest.


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## Bigdavid5.0

I got hit in the back of the head by the end of a pool cue.I got mad.I always like to kick to the bladder on the first kick.It helps with this technic


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