# Disabled--looking to practice



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

Hello everyone.

I searched through the list of forums and this seemed the most appropriate one in which to ask the question.

A little about me, so that I might get a more complete answer.

I have spastic cerebral palsy that affects my lower half, and due to this and complications from a corrective surgery I must use a cane on my right side in order to walk. Being born with the disability, and using the cane for about 13 years now, I'm quite comfortable with it. 

Given that both singlestick and canne du combat, particularly the latter, employ canes/sticks in their normal drills, I thought one of these would be a good choice for training in general fitness, coordination, possible defense, etc. I'm looking at them more as fitness routines than straight defense simply because, as someone with poor balance and footwork, the odds of successfully using these techniques to win a confrontation are realistically, not high for me (probably, what do I know?)

It's difficult to explain in great and accurate detail the true specifics of my abilities and limitations online... but, given some of these parameters, which would you recommend? I was leaning toward singlestick, although it seems the sticks used are probably somewhat shorter than my standard round handle aluminum assistive cane.

Also, I do not live near a training facility. While there are a wealth of videos out there, it is difficult for me to watch and perform moves at the same time. Perhaps if I purchased a DVD I could watch in the living room while learning, I just haven't invested yet. 

While this is more about fitness, activity and such to keep me on my feet, any comments with an eye to defense also welcome. Not being able to master the integral factor of footwork, I've just assumed I shouldn't bother. But as a cane is also part of daily life, incorporating that makes sense to me, too. 

In a nutshell I guess I'm asking which of the two (or one I haven't thought of) would be best for a person with spastic cerebral palsy of the legs who uses a cane, and how best to learn some of it with no training facility nearby, and what to invest in. 

Thanks everyone. Feel free to ask me anything for more information.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 11, 2017)

Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.



True. Though, as a personal decision, I don't think my balance is good enough to take a proper stance with a firearm in a drastic situation, and get off a shot without risking someone else. I could be wrong about that, but it's a personal decision I've made for now.

I did mention defense in my post but I'm also looking for what's best for general fitness and activity aside from my home workout routine which currently doesn't include anything martial.

Thank you for your insight.


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> True. Though, as a personal decision, I don't think my balance is good enough to take a proper stance with a firearm in a drastic situation, and get off a shot without risking someone else. I could be wrong about that, but it's a personal decision I've made for now.
> 
> I did mention defense in my post but I'm also looking for what's best for general fitness and activity aside from my home workout routine which currently doesn't include anything martial.
> 
> Thank you for your insight.


it will do you a great deal of good, how far you can take it depends on lots of things I'm not in the know about, but improvements in balance, co ordination and muscle tone are all there for the taking, a friends son with a,similar condition made amazing in progress with his determination to play soccer.
aa for what's next? If there are no classes a you can get to then your,stuck with teaching yourself of vids, normally that's not the best, but if your focus is balance and fitness rather than perfecting techneque its not the end of the world, pick one you like the look of and go for it. I suppose a cane swinging one makes sense


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> it will do you a great deal of good, how far you can take it depends on lots of things I'm not in the know about, but improvements in balance, co ordination and muscle tone are all there for the taking, a friends son with a,similar condition made amazing in progress with his determination to play soccer.
> aa for what's next? If there are no classes a you can get to then your,stuck with teaching yourself of vids, normally that's not the best, but if your focus is balance and fitness rather than perfecting techneque its not the end of the world, pick one you like the look of and go for it. I suppose a cane swinging one makes sense



Glad to hear about your friend's son. I can't really kick so soccer is out---I can thrust the leg out in a kicking strike, but not one with any real height or degree of force, and thanks to certain muscle complications I have no upward propulsion--jumping, etc. Very glad to hear he was able to improve his quality of life. Thanks for the rest of your comments as well. Currently watching a few vids, just trying to think how best to incorporate that beyond memorization... which I guess is fine, as I'd like some moves to become muscle memory eventually anyway.


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.


giving someone a good wrap in the head with his cane isn't the worse self defence


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> Glad to hear about your friend's son. I can't really kick so soccer is out---I can thrust the leg out in a kicking strike, but not one with any real height or degree of force, and thanks to certain muscle complications I have no upward propulsion--jumping, etc. Very glad to hear he was able to improve his quality of life. Thanks for the rest of your comments as well. Currently watching a few vids, just trying to think how best to incorporate that beyond memorization... which I guess is fine, as I'd like some moves to become muscle memory eventually anyway.


you not alone in the high kick problem, im working my own way through that.

bite sized pieces, really three moves at a time until you have them and then move on, the whole thing is just,repeating yourself until it works


----------



## kuniggety (Jul 11, 2017)

You mentioned no living near a training facility. Is this just for cane fighting or are there no martial arts schools at all around you?

Just an FYI, I've seen folks completely unable to walk practice Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Will they become world class athletes? Probably not but they're still working on their fitness and doing what they can to learn the techniques.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> You mentioned no living near a training facility. Is this just for cane fighting or are there no martial arts schools at all around you?
> 
> Just an FYI, I've seen folks completely unable to walk practice Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Will they become world class athletes? Probably not but they're still working on their fitness and doing what they can to learn the techniques.



There isn't one in my city but there are a few not too far away in surrounding areas--schools of karate and TKD specifically, so I am unsure if they have instructors that could help me.

I've heard before that BJJ is good for some disabled persons because a lot of the focus is on grappling and floor fighting, so it is also something I have been meaning to look into, thanks for that.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 11, 2017)

As someone has said bjj can be used for disabled people. Hell at my place there's a guy with only 1 arm and 1 leg. He uses a fake leg to walk and takes it off for training and he's a blue belt who recently completed a 12 hour grappling session for charity and he's a taekwondo black belt. Best thing to do is talk to your doctor and talk to an instructor


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.


You get a lot more out of life from martial arts than shooting a gun


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 11, 2017)

Firearms and Filipino Martial Arts would be my recommendation for the self-defense aspect of things.  Use of a weapon is the great equalizer, particularly for someone in your situation.  

As the old saying goes "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal".  For your fitness goals. Many things would fit that bill, but I would also recommend beginning a serious strengthening program if you are not already doing so.  I teach Therapeutic Exercise at a PT school, and I am happy to share that there is a good amount of data showing the benefits of resistance exercise for persons with CP and spasticity.  It isn't going to fix everything obviously, but it _can_ help you.

PM me if you like, and I would be happy to help you find someone good in your area.


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 11, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> You get a lot more out of life from martial arts than shooting a gun



When practiced for the purpose of self-defense, firearms training IS martial arts training.


----------



## Streetfighter2 (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.


Guns are for cowards. Half the problems in the world these days are caused by psychos with guns


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 11, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Guns are for cowards. Half the problems in the world these days are caused by psychos with guns



You are a freaking moron if you believe that. A person who was born with a disability is going to have an extremely difficult time matching someone who was not if they, or a loved one, is attacked.  What would you have them do?  Just lie down and take their beating.  Allow their wife to be raped?  What about older persons who cannot move the way they once did?  What about multiple attackers with weapons?  

Grow up.


----------



## Streetfighter2 (Jul 11, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> You are a freaking moron if you believe that. A person who was born with a disability is going to have an extremely difficult time matching someone who was not if they, or a loved one, is attacked.  What would you have them do?  Just lie down and take their beating.  Allow their wife to be raped?  What about older persons who cannot move the way they once did?  What about multiple attackers with weapons?
> 
> Grow up.


You can still fight if you're disabled I've seen guys in wheelchairs manage to defend themselves. You shoot an attacker you'll be in deep **** yourself, sorry if I offended you....actually no I'm not


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 11, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> You can still fight if you're disabled I've seen guys in wheelchairs manage to defend themselves. You shoot an attacker you'll be in deep **** yourself, sorry if I offended you....actually no I'm not


Agreed I hate this stereotype that disabled people are weak....from what I've seen it's the exact opposite. They're tough because they have to be because they've grown up getting crap because they're different and look like easy targets. I tell you I've got a friend who's blind in one eye and only one arm that works properly and I know he could kick the hell out of me if we threw down. 

Or look at bill Wallace the guy only with one leg his whole career because his other leg was badly injured and he's one of the best of his time


----------



## Martial D (Jul 11, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Guns are for cowards. Half the problems in the world these days are caused by psychos with guns


No, cowards are those that would victimize a disabled person. A firearm is the obvious equalizer.


----------



## Buka (Jul 11, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Jstacy.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 11, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> You can still fight if you're disabled I've seen guys in wheelchairs manage to defend themselves. You shoot an attacker you'll be in deep **** yourself, sorry if I offended you....actually no I'm not


That is frankly, completely unrealistic.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> That is frankly, completely unrealistic.


How? Your at a lower height than most would be so you have direct access to the groin and solar plexas, they have to adjust their height more to get to you...plus they're in a wheel chair...hence...wheels go forward and your on your opponents foot. No it's not easy but it's absolutely not unrealistic


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.


Are firearms an option where he lives?


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 11, 2017)

What is possible is not necessarily what is probable.  And no, a person who shoots an attacker is not going to be in deep #$% themselves, as long as they followed the law when doing so.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 11, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Realistically, you should be thinking firearms for self defence. It's unlikely that any amount of training would allow you to overcome a fully functional attacker.



You are making 2 very big assumptions in all of this. Firstly you assume that the OP lives in an area where guns are both legal and accessible, and secondly you are assuming that they are comfortable handling and carrying a gun. Now, you may think that guns are the best option but not everyone thinks the same and there are a lot of people who are horrified by the thought of using a gun, in self-defence or otherwise. 

Please be a bit more respectful in future, and actually take the time to read a post before you respond to it. Thanks


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 11, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You are making 2 very big assumptions in all of this. Firstly you assume that the OP lives in an area where guns are both legal and accessible, and secondly you are assuming that they are comfortable handling and carrying a gun. Now, you may think that guns are the best option but not everyone thinks the same and there are a lot of people who are horrified by the thought of using a gun, in self-defence or otherwise.
> 
> Please be a bit more respectful in future, and actually take the time to read a post before you respond to it. Thanks


Agreed also the fact it's not all about the defence side. The op literally said it's more about fitness....so I don't see how saying...use a gun is any help what so ever


----------



## Martial D (Jul 11, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You are making 2 very big assumptions in all of this. Firstly you assume that the OP lives in an area where guns are both legal and accessible, and secondly you are assuming that they are comfortable handling and carrying a gun. Now, you may think that guns are the best option but not everyone thinks the same and there are a lot of people who are horrified by the thought of using a gun, in self-defence or otherwise.
> 
> Please be a bit more respectful in future, and actually take the time to read a post before you respond to it. Thanks


I did read the post, and that was my honest evaluation. That you don't like firearms is neither here nor there.


----------



## WaterGal (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> I'm looking at them more as fitness routines than straight defense simply because, as someone with poor balance and footwork, the odds of successfully using these techniques to win a confrontation are realistically, not high for me (probably, what do I know?)



If your goal is more about fitness and staying active, and your challenge is balance and footwork, I'd recommend you try Tai Chi. That should help you improve in those areas.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> As someone has said bjj can be used for disabled people. Hell at my place there's a guy with only 1 arm and 1 leg. He uses a fake leg to walk and takes it off for training and he's a blue belt who recently completed a 12 hour grappling session for charity and he's a taekwondo black belt. Best thing to do is talk to your doctor and talk to an instructor



Thank you for sharing that story, things like that really inspire me on bad days.

Thanks to everyone else who has replied thus far. I will try to reply to each individually as time permits. Thank you.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> Thank you for sharing that story, things like that really inspire me on bad days.
> 
> Thanks to everyone else who has replied thus far. I will try to reply to each individually as time permits. Thank you.


No problem here's a news article about it if you want more details. The guy also got his blue belt straight after the event and recently won the gold medal in the Para Jiu Jitsu world championships. So even though yeah disability can be a set back there's still no reason why you can't do just as much as anyone else.

Don't listen to the nonsense saying you won't be able to defend yourself without a gun. You may have to work harder but hey working hard is never a bad thing.

Amputee set for challenge – at jiu jitsu  « Jersey Evening Post


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Firearms and Filipino Martial Arts would be my recommendation for the self-defense aspect of things. Use of a weapon is the great equalizer, particularly for someone in your situation.





Martial D said:


> No, cowards are those that would victimize a disabled person. A firearm is the obvious equalizer.



The Op has already posted up that he feels he doesn't want to use weapons before either of you posted.

It's also none too friendly to start arguing on this person's thread. We should be looking to help not argue agendas.
I know of several military people who have lost limbs in war who practice martial arts as well as other sports.

Jstacy these are British sites ( the second link has photos and the logo of an American cane site though)  but may well be able to give you more information and support, we don't do guns much here so it doesn't include them. Adaptive Martial Arts UK & Ireland
Britannia Hero's Inclusive Martial Arts


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The Op has already posted up that he feels he doesn't want to use weapons before either of you posted.
> 
> It's also none too friendly to start arguing on this person's thread. We should be looking to help not argue agendas.
> I know of several military people who have lost limbs in war who practice martial arts as well as other sports.
> ...



Thanks for those links, I am looking forward to checking them out.

I'd like to take a moment here to address some of the questions by some members regarding firearms, rather than try to reply to each individual query, as many were the same or similar.

Firearms are legal where I live (US) and I live in a fairly gun-friendly, shall-issue state. So that's not a huge issue. I don't own firearms but I don't fear them and am a 2A supporter (if anyone was wondering.)

My personal decision is simply based on the fact that I am concerned for the safety of bystanders, should I need to use a firearm. I won't fall over if I fire a gun or anything. But with my balance issues, even with some practice I would be concerned about accidents in a heated situation. I fully agree they are the great equalizer, and I realize their usefulness as a defense tool. 

But aside from my personal concerns due to my condition, some are also logistical. I enjoy traveling when I can afford it, and I often go to places that take a much dimmer view of firearms. Knowing how to do/use other things when I am in these places is also a factor. I am mostly asking after fitness and to add to my current routine, but the defense factor, if applicable in any way, is a bonus, certainly. 

For the gentleman who believes guns are for cowards, I respect your stance although I don't agree. Likely you have achieved a level of self defense acumen and fitness that is difficult to obtain for most disabled people such as myself. In short, you probably have the abilities and experience I wish I could have, and I am glad for you. 

I appreciate the advice here on guns, and I think y'all are right. I'm just going for a different set of goals and priorities here, that I think will fit my needs and lifestyle better at this time.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> Thanks for those links, I am looking forward to checking them out.
> 
> I'd like to take a moment here to address some of the questions by some members regarding firearms, rather than try to reply to each individual query, as many were the same or similar.
> 
> ...



and that's one of the best replies I've seen for a long time! I hope you will stay with us beyond this thread!


----------



## drop bear (Jul 11, 2017)

Could you do fencing?

I mean you pursue that far enough. You could go to the olympics.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and that's one of the best replies I've seen for a long time! I hope you will stay with us beyond this thread!


Appreciate it, friend. I don't have much in the way of knowledge to contribute, but I'm sure I'll be lurking here and there.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Jul 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Could you do fencing?
> 
> I mean you pursue that far enough. You could go to the olympics.



That is a very cool video, thanks for sharing that. They mean business.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 11, 2017)

As Charlemagne mentioned earlier I also would advise Filipino Martial Arts mixed with Firearms training.  That would be a quality fit for fitness and personal protection!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 11, 2017)

I know little about this but here is a link to walking stick and cane defense

Hapkido Cane: with Alain Burrese, stick fighting, walking stick defense

Hapkido does deal with using a cane for self-defense


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I searched through the list of forums and this seemed the most appropriate one in which to ask the question.
> 
> ...



I have spoken more than once, on these forms, about a classmate who suffers from the same condition, though I have personally never seen him use a cane (that might just be because I don't only see him for the 90 minutes of class time.)

My school studies Wing Chun and Kali, a Filipino Martial Art that uses sticks in place of blades for training.  On the side he also studies HEMA, though I am not exactly sure which particular style.  He has adapted well even to the Wing Chun we study.  He knows his mobility footwork wise is limited and so he makes up for it with superior precision with his upper body.  Since you have the cane I would suggest what you have already thought of, stick work.  To see if it is right for you I would search for some YouTube videos under the names Inosanto and Marcaida to start.  They don't often go into specific step by step training but I think their videos provide a good feel for whether it would fit or not.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 11, 2017)

I think you'll find that a lot of arts will give you what you are looking for, but what is more important is to find an instructor that understands your condition and can adapt their program and style to reflect that. Some instructors are a lot better at this than others.


----------



## Brian King (Jul 11, 2017)

Good luck on your search jstacy1228 and I echo Tez3 that you 'stick' around. I have enjoyed your postings so far.

The fighting with a cane that people often demonstrate is fine if balance is not an issue, the problem often being that those that legitimately need a cane...need the cane. Learning how to wrap/entangle the cane can be useful as well as using it for a choke (fang choke some call them - there are many variations) should you be taken down or chose to go to the ground.





For fitness, wrestling, BJJ and other grappling arts are very good. For fitness combined with upper body coordination Filipino Martial Arts are very good (they also work both arms/sides of the body - which is good if one hand is occupied dealing with balance) along with some Chinese Martial Arts (especially those that focus on inside/close range work) For focus study/practice many of the Karate styles are very good options. If there is a Systema (Russian Martial Art) school near you, it is a good study for dealing with chaos and unpredictable circumstances as well as weapons etc.

Body movement is becoming very popular around the US now. Do not rule this study out because of your circumstances. Speak to the instructors and see if they can work with you...many will be able to and those that can will have a lot to offer.

Last, for fitness have you thought about dance? There is fitness as well as friendly social contact, and a skill you look forward to using on the weekend. Some of the Latin dances can work with restricted footwork.

Good luck and let us know how it goes
Regards
Brian King


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jul 11, 2017)

Hello jstacy and welcome to MT

I applaud you for reaching out to search for a way to better yourself and asking for advice.   I saw this on the MT Filipino Martial Arts General Forum under the thread about how macho is your art.  I met this gentleman in 1999 and at that time he could walk with the type of crutches that were braced on his hands.  He told me that Angel Cabalas had trained him in Serrada knowing of his physical limitations, to be a good teacher to help pass on his (Angel's) art.  I've seen some video footage of him teaching from a stool in seminars.  I copied this post to share with you.   

"Carlitos has _spina bifida_ which, I'm told, is a progressively deteriorating congenital condition where some of the nerves of the base of the spine are open and exposed. As a young man, Carlitos could walk after a fashion. He took up Serrada Escrima and became very good in spite of his physical issues.

When I met him, he was already basically confined to a wheelchair, but could hoist himself up onto a bar-stool and wedge himself into a more or less stable position braced with his extended legs. From that point he became like the calm eye of the hurricane, _mata sa bagyo, _raining blows down with lighting speed and accuracy. Amazing to watch."

Angel Cabalas was a legend in America's FMA comunity and he gave Carlito a wonderful gift by sharing with Carlito his art.  Carlito now shares Angel's art with others.  Your disability can be an asset when working with others because you will have a different perspective than those of us without a disability, what can come easy to some people might be hard for you but you will get a different view point through your hard work possibly allowing you to help others in the future.  Who knows.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jul 11, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I searched through the list of forums and this seemed the most appropriate one in which to ask the question.
> 
> ...



In regards to videos for self defense you might try Michael Janich's Martial Cane Concepts since it was designed for people who need to use a cane to walk with as opposed to using a cane to augment their martial art such as the Hapkido Cane.   Don't get me wrong I'm not putting down the martial art of Hapkido nor the cane techniques found within it, it's just a difference of the ultimate training goal.

I would stay away from say "Kenpo Street Cane" video though.

However per your question about the martial systems or sports of english singlestick or canne du combat I'd say neither.  For the following reasons.
1) Availability for instruction, both systems seem to be on the decline so it might be hard to find instruction.

2) Both are meant for sport 1st and self defense 2nd.   Now I know you weren't looking for self defense because you don't believe you can defend yourself, so as a sport you would get the physical fitness you were mainly looking for.  I respectfully disagree here.   Since both systems are sports 1st, they have rules, those rules will be imposed on you.   For instance points are scored for proper footwork, for leaps, etc. etc. things you can't do.  I believe this will set you up for frustration in the long run.  I think you would be better off working on things you can do and still meet your goals of physical fitness. 

Here are some suggestions that I believe can meet the physical fitness aspect you are looking for.
1)  A few people here have suggested the FMAs and I agree.  Because of your limited maneuverability without a cane, I would get something you can hit (a hitting bag) and a stool, sit on the stool and beat the bag using double sticks.  If you don't have a bag you can hit trees or leaves on a bush or a post.  I suggest double sticks so you exercise both arms and there are plenty of drills and videos of drills out there just search for Sinawali drills on you tube and I'm sure you'll find plenty.  I'll be glad to help you in this.

2) In regards to foot work or moving around if you only need to use one hand and a cane, try moving with the assistance of the cane in one hand and using a stick, a knife, or something in the other hand to practice defending yourself with or practice using it (the item) as a shield.   Lay down on the floor and use the double sticks as if you have fallen.  Lay down on the floor and use your cane as if you have fallen.

3) In the FMAs we have feeding patterns for the drills, so take a section of a feeding pattern (say 5 strikes) and practice walking with the cane while striking with the other hand (executing those five strikes) then pick another 5 strikes or another order and do them.   When watching TV sit in a chair and practice those same strikes with a knife, a kitchen utensil, a pot or frying pan, your walking cane, anything to keep the arms moving and the brain active.  

4) In some of the FMAs the double stick drills translate to empty hand skills, so while you are building muscle memory through high repetition of a Sinawali drill you can also practice that same drill empty hand while sitting in a chair.  If you have someone that can hold Focus mitts for you then you can do boxing type drills using the Sinawali patterns giving your upper body a work out.  But you can move past just the Jab Cross Hook drills to elbows, guntings etc. etc. and combine them to the standard boxing drills thus allowing you more creative ways to train.

5) Not to mention doing these drills if you have a training partner to help you along.  Then he can feed you and you can feed him (meaning you can feed you strikes with the stick, and you learn to block and defend, then you feed and he learns to block and defend, or he holds pads for you and then you for him) the sky is the limit.

However these arts (the FMAs) were meant more for the self defense side of things more so than sport, so with that said I think overall the training mindset is different and more open than learning a sport form and adapting it to meet you physical needs.

Oh by the way where are you at in the USA?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 12, 2017)

@jstacy

Are there any martial arts schools near you? If so you may want to visit them and talk to them about training. The worst they could say is no.

There is a story of a man who was confined to a wheelchair, after a major accident, in Chuck Norris' book

"The Secret Power Within: Zen Solutions to Real Problems"

This man did exactly that and found a teacher. You may want to check the book out

I am also thinking, if balance is a problem, possibly looking to styles that specialize on ground work, such as BJJ


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> That is frankly, completely unrealistic.


I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.

Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

@Malos1979 

That's what I thought. You got nothing.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...



If you want an argument please start another thread rather than impose on this one. The OP was asking for information not looking to have arguments breaking out on the thread. Show some respect and good manners.


----------



## Jenna (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...


Perhaps that is the case for some wheelchair users, and perhaps not for others, maybe you are generalising about wheelchair users? 

Either way, I think OP in seeking after constructive defence information to help their selves is showing they do not wish to be helpless, do not wish to be burden on anyone else and I think that ought to be applauded you would not agree? specially when other able bodied folk expect other agencies to keep them safe, no??

arguing over pettiness is fine that is what internet is for and but I am sure as martial artist you have thoughts or constructive information you can give


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> If you want an argument please start another thread rather than impose on this one. The OP was asking for information not looking to have arguments breaking out on the thread. Show some respect and good manners.



If someone hits the coward button on my posts without working up the testes to say why yes, I will call you on it.

Especially in a situation like this where the (unstated) counter opinion could cost people their well being or even their lives were people to take it to heart. This is quite a serious matter.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...



Disabled Devon woman headbutts mugger - BBC News

Hero wheelchair user rescues sex attack victim racing to her aid on full speed

Disabled woman fights off attacker after being pushed from her wheelchair in Skegness

Disabled man fights off armed robbers using bed warming pan

Wheelchair-bound victim fights off knife robber


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...



1: the psychological nature of the typical strong arm robber.  They are looking for easy victims.  They either ambush or look for someone the believe will not fight back.  If a person fights back with some skill, say a solid hit to the face, they will often run.  Why?  These attacks are about hit and run.  The longer the fight last the better chance the cops show up and catch them.
2: Certain fighting arts make more sense.  Would I suggest boxing?  No.  But it someone can't use their legs but has good upper body strength an art with ground fighting?  Yes because the bad guy would have to "come down" to your level to take your stuff.  If you learn to fight with weapons see #1 because strong arm robberies are unarmed and if you show you know how to use that stick/knife etc. they will go in search of a softer target.
3: it will make you overall more fit when combined with #2 brings us back to #1.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Disabled Devon woman headbutts mugger - BBC News
> 
> Hero wheelchair user rescues sex attack victim racing to her aid on full speed
> 
> ...



That's like saying 1/1000000 golfers get hit by lightning, so it's realistic to expect to be hit by lightning every round of golf.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> 1: the psychological nature of the typical strong arm robber.  They are looking for easy victims.  They either ambush or look for someone the believe will not fight back.  If a person fights back with some skill, say a solid hit to the face, they will often run.  Why?  These attacks are about hit and run.  The longer the fight last the better chance the cops show up and catch them.
> 2: Certain fighting arts make more sense.  Would I suggest boxing?  No.  But it someone can't use their legs but has good upper body strength an art with ground fighting?  Yes because the bad guy would have to "come down" to your level to take your stuff.  If you learn to fight with weapons see #1 because strong arm robberies are unarmed and if you show you know how to use that stick/knife etc. they will go in search of a softer target.
> 3: it will make you overall more fit when combined with #2 brings us back to #1.


Granted, learning skills can't hurt..up to and no further than it takes you out of the realm of realism and into an overconfident frame of mind that can lead to real danger.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...


Whoops someone's upset that he's got more dislikes than likes on his profile


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...


Evidence has already been given multiple times to prove you wrong but you're choosing to ignore no ones problem but your own


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> If someone hits the coward button on my posts without working up the testes to say why yes, I will call you on it.
> 
> Especially in a situation like this where the (unstated) counter opinion could cost people their well being or even their lives were people to take it to heart. This is quite a serious matter.


Oh yes because training martial arts is going to cost someone their lives right...the only one causing problems is you telling disabled people not to train because there's no point in them doing it. And then you start crying because people disagree with you. I very much hope the op doesn't listen to a word you say.. This forum has a disagree button and people use it. If it bothers you that much don't post


----------



## jobo (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> That's like saying 1/1000000 golfers get hit by lightning, so it's realistic to expect to be hit by lightning every round of golf.


you cant have it both ways, disability varies rom slight to paraplegic , if your going to say people with a physical disability can't defend themselves you are going to have to define what level of disability you mean and how big strong fast etc there attacker is.
my friend with one leg woul grind most people in to the dirt if they made the mistake of letting him get hold of them, he is 300 lb of muscle even with a leg missing


----------



## Grenadier (Jul 13, 2017)

*Admin's Note:*

Folks, some of you are already on thin ice, and won't stop chopping away at it with a pickax.  

Keep things civil, and on-topic.  


Political discussions can go to one of the Forum Foundry's sister forums, and I recommend that you do it here:

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Granted, learning skills can't hurt..up to and no further than it takes you out of the realm of realism and into an overconfident frame of mind that can lead to real danger.



It's not about overconfidence.  If anyone on these boards thinks their training means they will always win they are overconfident.  It is not overconfident to recognize people who do street robberies are looking for soft targets.  When you show they aren't soft they go looking for another target.  Self defense isn't about beating the other guy down, it's about getting out of a bad situation and having the other guy leave is getting out.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Evidence has already been given multiple times to prove you wrong but you're choosing to ignore no ones problem but your own


Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts schmacts


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 13, 2017)

OK, not trying to go against Mod warnings but that one actually has me scratching my head.......

The definition of *fact *is a thing that is *indisputably* the case.

So facts are used to prove...well...truths and reality.... since *"indisputable"* means unable to be challenged or denied.....the question is what is actually a fact and what is not....

or it simply could be a case of I missed the joke...if so my apologies.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> It's not about overconfidence.  If anyone on these boards thinks their training means they will always win they are overconfident.  It is not overconfident to recognize people who do street robberies are looking for soft targets.  When you show they aren't soft they go looking for another target.  Self defense isn't about beating the other guy down, it's about getting out of a bad situation and having the other guy leave is getting out.


Exactly my point actually. I just add the more realistic qualifier that it is highly unlikely that a disabled person will be able to overcome one or more full grown able bodied attackers regardless of any 'self defense training'(a large percentage of which is pure bullshido anyway).

Feel free to dislike, disagree, whatever. Doesn't hurt my feelings. Reality is what it is.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Exactly my point actually. I just add the more realistic qualifier that it is highly unlikely that a disabled person will be able to overcome one or more full grown able bodied attackers regardless of any 'self defense training'(a large percentage of which is pure bullshido anyway).
> 
> Feel free to dislike, disagree, whatever. Doesn't hurt my feelings. Reality is what it is.


Sooo now you're claiming self defence training doesn't work at all....okay


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts schmacts



Facts mean nothing and that's a fact


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Exactly my point actually. I just add the more realistic qualifier that it is highly unlikely that a disabled person will be able to overcome one or more full grown able bodied attackers regardless of any 'self defense training'(a large percentage of which is pure bullshido anyway).
> 
> Feel free to dislike, disagree, whatever. Doesn't hurt my feelings. Reality is what it is.



Your points should be made on a new thread put up by you not on a thread made by someone new who has come here to ask a question.


I would suggest we ignore your points until you make them elsewhere and leave the OP alone because whether you realise it or not you are attacking him/her with your labouring of a point that clearly is designed to demoralise anyone who is disabled. Your reality isn't necessarily the true reality, after all plenty of people believe the world to be flat and will tell you ad nauseum that the flat earth is a reality. The truth is...it's your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jul 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Perhaps that is the case for some wheelchair users, and perhaps not for others, maybe you are generalising about wheelchair users?
> 
> Either way, I think OP in seeking after constructive defence information to help their selves is showing they do not wish to be helpless, do not wish to be burden on anyone else and I think that ought to be applauded you would not agree? specially when other able bodied folk expect other agencies to keep them safe, no??
> 
> arguing over pettiness is fine that is what internet is for and but I am sure as martial artist you have thoughts or constructive information you can give



*This* from Jenna.



Martial D said:


> I love the hit and run disagree monkeys.
> 
> Ok wise guys, let's have the argument for how you think  it's realistic for someone in a wheelchair or that needs to hold themselves up on a crutch to defend themselves against able bodied attackers in the street? I'll surely hold my breath...



I have no idea how this got from the OP's simple request, to wheelchair users not being able to defend themselves.  But the below URLs may provide some food for thought.

wheelchair karate - Bing






I don't think anyone would expect that all persons could be as good as the above.  But no all persons can be a successful martial artist, handicapped or not.

As to the OP, there is some good advice in response, and you are on the right track in my opinion, seeking to use cane techniques.  Just ignore the bad advice, it is pretty obvious.  We have members here who seem better at negativity than is required.  Ignore them as well. 

Welcome to MT and I look forward to you sharing your journey with us and any others who are handicapped in any way who may be able to be inspired by what you share here.


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 13, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> OK, not trying to go against Mod warnings but that one actually has me scratching my head.......
> 
> The definition of *fact *is a thing that is *indisputably* the case.
> 
> ...



I believe he was intending that to be somewhat a joke, but also somewhat real. 

The reality comes in that, just because a few people here and there have done something, does not necessarily make it likely or probable.  Put in the context of this thread.  Yes, there have been people with various disabilities who have successfully defended themselves without the use of weapons.  However, that does not mean that it is commonplace OR that such persons are not at a disadvantage against persons who do not have to deal with their same conditions.  If everything else was equal, the person who does not suffer from the same conditions is at a significant disadvantage, and it is dishonest, and perhaps even dangerous in the context of personal protection, to argue otherwise. 

A real-world self-defense situation is typically one where someone else has chosen the time, circumstances, etc. of the engagement.  They are working to stack the deck against you as much as you can.  As such, the smart play is to do everything one can to put the odds in YOUR favor, not rely on being one of the outliers. 

A weapon is the great equalizer for persons who differing bodily abilities.  That could mean our OP, a little old lady who is frail, or a younger person coming off of a surgery.  There are any number of scenarios.   

I'll stick with my original recommendations to the OP.  Something that could be fun and functional, such as FMA (mostly due to the weapons consideration) or GJJ, when combined with legit firearms training, would likely be the best combination of choices to satisfy both the fitness and self-defense aspect of things.  In addition, I'll stick with my recommendation for exploring some legit strength training.  The reality is that, with a few notable exceptions, most of the martial arts training that people are involved doesn't do much at all for fitness, as can easily be noted by the number of overweight and out of shape black belts that exist.


----------



## Charlemagne (Jul 13, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> *This* from Jenna.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting, thanks for sharing. If you find anything where people give attacks that are a bit more dynamic, and not just from standing directly in front, I'd be interested in seeing that as well.

Cheers,


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Exactly my point actually. I just add the more realistic qualifier that it is highly unlikely that a disabled person will be able to overcome one or more full grown able bodied attackers regardless of any 'self defense training'(a large percentage of which is pure bullshido anyway).
> 
> Feel free to dislike, disagree, whatever. Doesn't hurt my feelings. Reality is what it is.


You are missing the point.  You rarely, if ever, have to overcome an attacker in a typical street scenario where unarmed self-defense is required.  A random teen attacking, a person looking to take your bag/wallet, they are all purposefully looking for those that appear.
1. Unaware
2. Physically vulnerable.

Not just one of the above, but both.  First Martial arts with self defense as a goal teaches situational awareness.  The mere fact that you show you are aware of your surroundings will put them off because the element of surprise is compromised and your awareness also means that you can identify them later.

Second the minute they get wacked in an obviously trained way with a weapon, or are put into a lock, it is very unlikely they are going to continue the attack because A. The cops may show up in time B. If they get injured they are even more easily identifiable.

You seem fixated on the idea that self defense is about overcoming an opponent.  That is in the ring, or when the attacker is simply intent on beating the crap out of you.  The most common street assaults aren't like that.  The perpetrators do a cost/benefit analysis and when the cost outweighs the benefit they cut their loses and run.  That's all self defense ultimately is, making the cost higher, it's not about overcoming the opponent.

It's about holding on until others show up.





It's about bloodying them so they run...





It's about using the cane...





You really seem to have a unique ability to ignore any experience or evidence that contradicts a preconceived notion you form with little apparent evidence or experience.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> That's like saying 1/1000000 golfers get hit by lightning, so it's realistic to expect to be hit by lightning every round of golf.


So previously in another thread you refused to believe Aikido could be used for real and asked "Please post a video of someone using aikido in a real combat situation defeating anybody", I posted such a video and you dismissed it arguing it wasn't aikido, even though it clearly was.

Now you say people in wheelchairs can't defend themselves, and when again presented with evidence you dismiss it.

So if your opinions can't be changed by evidence, what is it that you require?


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So previously in another thread you refused to believe Aikido could be used for real and asked "Please post a video of someone using aikido in a real combat situation defeating anybody", I posted such a video and you dismissed it arguing it wasn't aikido, even though it clearly was.
> 
> Now you say people in wheelchairs can't defend themselves, and when again presented with evidence you dismiss it.
> 
> So if your opinions can't be changed by evidence, what is it that you require?


First, your previous example re aikido was disingenuous, as is this rehash, and I'll leave it at that.
Second, again, the existence of these very low probability scenarios says nothing about the norm. I didn't say impossible, I said unlikely. I could upload several videos of people surviving skydiving accidents and claim 'see, who needs a parachute?' to the same effect.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 13, 2017)

Martial D said:


> First, your previous example re aikido was disingenuous, as is this rehash, and I'll leave it at that.
> Second, again, the existence of these very low probability scenarios says nothing about the norm. I didn't say impossible, I said unlikely. I could upload several videos of people surviving skydiving accidents and claim 'see, who needs a parachute?' to the same effect.



That last bit is a rather transparent effort to undercut actual evidence.

You dismissed the actual dynamics of a street attack and the purpose of self defense.  Video is then posted showing these dynamics and purpose in practice with UNTRAINED people.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 13, 2017)

My apologies to the OP for my part in this conversation on your intro thread.

This is about what to expect from MT though. You will find a very diverse set of outlooks and opinions here.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> You will find a very diverse set of outlooks and opinions here.



and that is what it makes it interesting. We come from different parts of the world, we train different styles, we are all very different in our life experiences. We have different jobs and careers as well as different religions, thoughts, political allegiances, just about everything.  We do have the one thing in common though... a love of martial arts. There rarely one answer to any question, we approach things differently however when we all agree as we do on here ( apart from you) you can take it as being something that is true.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> First, your previous example re aikido was disingenuous, as is this rehash, and I'll leave it at that.
> Second, again, the existence of these very low probability scenarios says nothing about the norm. I didn't say impossible, I said unlikely. I could upload several videos of people surviving skydiving accidents and claim 'see, who needs a parachute?' to the same effect.


You haven't answered the question, if you don't accept evidence, what does it take for you to change your opinion?


----------



## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> You haven't answered the question, if you don't accept evidence, what does it take for you to change your opinion?


When did you stop beating your wife?


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> When did you stop beating your wife?


----------



## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

Paul_D said:


>


Not at all. Why don't you google that sentence since you seem to be unaware of the reference.

As per this thread, it's been returned to owner.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Not at all. Why don't you google that sentence since you seem to be unaware of the reference.



Sigh. Refusing to bite doesn't mean he's unaware of the reference. We all got it, however it's redundant in this thread.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> When did you stop beating your wife?


Jeez this thread has really lost it's original intent


----------



## Martial D (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sigh. Refusing to bite doesn't mean he's unaware of the reference. We all got it, however it's redundant in this thread.


It would seem you do not understand what a loaded question is. No matter.

You do you.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

Martial D said:


> It would seem you do not understand what a loaded question is. No matter.
> 
> You do you.



Oh dear.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 14, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I searched through the list of forums and this seemed the most appropriate one in which to ask the question.
> 
> ...



welcome to MT.  dont let the disagreements and distractions of posters bother you. it happens sometimes.  i apologize for the others rudeness.  
if you cant find a good school near you,  you should keep looking for a teacher. it is possible there is someone near you who can teach you privately and can tailor something to you.  over the years i have had quite a few private students.  but you will really have to look for them.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Aug 1, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Granted, learning skills can't hurt..up to and no further than it takes you out of the realm of realism and into an overconfident frame of mind that can lead to real danger.


I know my thread is quite old now as I've not had a chance to come back to it. 

But I would say for the most part, disabled persons regardless of disability don't really get all that overconfident in their physical prowess, even if they learn a few fighting moves. We tend to have the opposite problem.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 1, 2017)

jstacy1228 said:


> I know my thread is quite old now as I've not had a chance to come back to it.
> 
> But I would say for the most part, disabled persons regardless of disability don't really get all that overconfident in their physical prowess, even if they learn a few fighting moves. We tend to have the opposite problem.



Well, you have a point, but I don't think the 'martial fantasy' mentality is restricted to any given set of abilities. I'm not suggesting you are prone to such thinking by any means, I'm just suggesting staying realistic is a much safer option. 

My cousin in a chair has a taser holstered under the seat. Realistic self defense.


----------



## jstacy1228 (Aug 1, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Well, you have a point, but I don't think the 'martial fantasy' mentality is restricted to any given set of abilities. I'm not suggesting you are prone to such thinking by any means, I'm just suggesting staying realistic is a much safer option.
> 
> My cousin in a chair has a taser holstered under the seat. Realistic self defense.


I don't necessarily disagree. I would even suggest that in terms of pure self-defense (if that is the ultimate goal) a wheelchair user might have some advantage over me, a cane (and occasional wheelchair) user. 

1. The wheelchair user needn't be concerned with balance or footwork. I can't really do "footwork" and it would be relatively easy to throw me off balance if I wasn't in an environment that made that more difficult.
2. Neither of us has the option to run, really, which I think many experienced practitioners would say is the best option available. That can get to me sometimes because it's unfortunate not to have one of the best, safest options at the ready. If the goal of the attacker is not a strong arm mugging but a true "I want to harm you" intent, we have to do something about that, even if our attempts come to naught. But the wheelchair user can possibly get in some good strikes and then roll away if they've momentarily incapacitated their attacker.
3. For both, if we're thrown to the floor, that might actually be the best of a bad lot, because then, again, no balance issues and if we can get our opponent down there, all the better. 

I mention these points only because there was some question above as to wheelchair users and defense, and I daresay in some ways, they have advantages over me. Probably. Some may even carry other items, as you say, a taser. Perhaps some arnis sticks or something.

Mixed martial arts is for me a beautiful form of dance, made all the more so by being more "useful" than only the dance, if I may say. Perhaps it is my lack of ability that engenders such a high opinion of it, but everything from proper strikes to footwork to reading  your opponent is of great interest to me. I am totally the guy who watches the Korean action movies and thinks how awesome that would be (though cinematic martial arts is a different discussion altogether.) No argument there. But for better or worse, I'm aware of my limits daily. 

I don't concern myself with this as much as I once did, the pure self-defense aspect of it. The hypotheticals and what ifs drove me to distraction once upon a time. Accepting and working within one's limitations, while continuing to push them, makes for a happier lifestyle. 

General thanks to everyone who posted videos, I'll make some time to watch them soon.


----------

