# Leading USA Hapkido Leaders



## Black Belt FC (Aug 1, 2004)

*Who do you consider to be the prominent Hapkido Leaders in the US? Top ten Non Koreans and Koreans? And why?*


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## Enson (Aug 2, 2004)

from what i've seen... john pellegrini! hee hee! there i said before anyone else did. i really don't know. he is the only hapkido instructor i know.


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## Shogun (Aug 2, 2004)

Bong soo Han - for pioneering.

and I dont know much else about Hapkido practitioners.


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## American HKD (Aug 2, 2004)

Greetings

That's a very subjective question because there are a few different HKD styles being practiced all with different leaders.

KHF and a few different Kwans and there US leaders.
Sin Moo HKD
JR Wests system
Rudy Timmerman
IHF
WHA
WHF

Who's the top ten of each ??????????


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## Han-Mi (Aug 3, 2004)

I love the subject line

LEADING USA Hapkido LEADERS

artyon: 
:supcool:


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 3, 2004)

There are many different Hapkido groups here in the USA.  
The Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. is affiliated with GM Lim, Hyun Soo in Taegu city South Korea.  I would have to say that GM West, GM Timmerman are 2 of the more prominant people as they have been doing Hapkido since the 60s.

Take care
Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Aug 3, 2004)

I would LOVE to respond to this but I can't figure how the term "leadership" is being used. Seems like everybody who starts his own organization so as to maintain dominance over his turf could be considered a leader. I tend to think of a leader as someone whose deportment or value system is something I would want to emulate as opposed to someone who promotes an event or manages the till. On the other hand there are a lot of really nice guys whose students and peers respect them and keep pretty much to themselves. In this way, saying that a person is a good teacher or mentor is also a good leader doesn't seem to follow any more than flipping it around to say that a good leader is also a good teacher. Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Aug 3, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

Your right in you comments. Leaders are few and far between if any can be found at all. 

A leader should be respected by all, be of very high moral character with vast knowledge of the Art.

I'd say Ji Han Jae is the world leader in HKD whether one wants to admit it or not. Ji's credits to the Art run to deep to be denied. 

As far as Americans I have not been exposed first hand to enough American Masters to have a real opinion. 98% of the HKD I know comes from Koreans.

I do know Americans such as Masters Whalen, West, Timmerman, are highly respected and seem to fit the bill of true leaders of Traditional HKD.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 4, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

"......I'd say Ji Han Jae is the world leader in HKD whether one wants to admit it or not. Ji's credits to the Art run to deep to be denied. ....." 

Thats very true. Most people that one would consider a true leader are usually the type of people who eschew the limelight. I notice that Chang Chin Il likewise keeps to himself, though people who have had the experience of working with him speak highly of both his teaching and technical abilites. Would you be willing to expose yourself a bit and give some qualities you find in Ji that cause you to view him as a leader? By this I don't mean his traditional position as originator of modern Hapkido. Rather, I am thinking about personal traits or accomplishments that encourage you to use him as a model for problem-solving or conduct in your own life. You can also reserve the right not to go there if you would rather not. My thought is that you and Mike and a number of other folks are very strong supporters of Ji and since we are talking about leadership it might help the discussion to use your relationship with Ji to characterize what it is we are viewing as leadership traits, yes?  Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 4, 2004)

I think the better question is what traits does one need to have to be considered a leader/good leader?

Some thoughts I have.

1.  A leader has to be good at what they do.

2.  A leader needs to be able to relate to people.

3.  A leader needs to lead in a positive direction and not be selfish or out just to promote themselves.

There are more traits that a leader should have but this is a start.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Aug 4, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

"....... A leader needs to lead in a positive direction and not be selfish ...." 

I'm sorry for how what I am about to say might be taken, but I must say that I am a bit disappointed. To me it seems everytime a string such as this comes up (and that in ITSELF is a rarity) we always start at the same point. At the risk of stirring up consternation I for myself would like to take this a step beyond where you have positioned us, 'kay? 

I would like to say that a leader is not just good at what they do, or needs to be able to relate to people. Take the next step. To me a leader is a role model who shows how this behavior is done and then causes the people around them to want to live their life the same way. Heres' an example of what I am talking about. 

How many people say they practice a "martial art"? I don't want to even get into this issue but lets take a look at the results, yes? If a person really practices a martial art how is their community better for them following this Warriors' Path? Even little things like volunteering their time, giving blood or pitching in to clean-up road kills or trash along the highway. People don't mind posturing about how tough they are, but how does that position make their community better? 

Now, getting back to the idea of leadership, how do identified leaders encourage their "martial art" students and cadre to make their communities better? DO they encourage their students to make the community better? Do they provide a role model by which students can see HOW to make their communities better? Do they espouse a view that makes community improvement a priority? I know that often with my students the question comes up in Hapkido-- "Does this stuff really work?" and I wind up asking them "Do YOU really work?" As I said before I think a leader is more than just the head of an organization and thats why I thought Stuarts relationship with Ji Han Jae might be a good place to start. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Aug 4, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ... If a person really practices a martial art how is their community better for them following this Warriors' Path? Even little things like volunteering their time, giving blood or pitching in to clean-up road kills or trash along the highway. People don't mind posturing about how tough they are, but how does that position make their community better?
> 
> Now, getting back to the idea of leadership, how do identified leaders encourage their "martial art" students and cadre to make their communities better? DO they encourage their students to make the community better? Do they provide a role model by which students can see HOW to make their communities better? Do they espouse a view that makes community improvement a priority? ...Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Hello Bruce et al:
Thank you for the cudos.  I am truly humbled.
FWIW.  I have always included this type of training in my programs.  I truly believe that teaching martial art without adding the Jung Shin spirit is not in the best interest of the student.  Our students, either as a group or as individuals, are encouraged to make a difference in their lives by doing positive things with and for their families, fellow human beings, and communities.  IMHO, one needs to compliment hard training with Jung Shin in order to keep focused toward good and positive things rather than just learning how to hurt others.


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## gmunoz (Aug 4, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> from what i've seen... john pellegrini! hee hee! there i said before anyone else did. i really don't know. he is the only hapkido instructor i know.


OH yeaaahhhhhhhh!  John Pellegrini is the man!  Hapkido master!


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## American HKD (Aug 4, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

I first met Doju Ji in 1982/83 through my teacher Son Tae Soo, he was visiting many Masters here in Philadelphia to discuss Sin Moo HKD. At the time Ji was living in California I was only exposed to him for a few days then. Needless to say during that time as a young 1st Dan and very impressionable.

Fast foward to 2003-04 I started training with him directly and had the oportunity over the last year to find out alot about the man as well as the martial artist.

Without going into great details these are some of my assesments.

Doju Ji is a very humble man IMO. 
He practices the philosophy he teaches
Completly willing to transmit Sin Moo HKD in it's entirety. 
Willness to teach anyone who's interested.
Doesn't put down anyone including his ememies.
Continues his own intense research and development of Hapkido & spiritual arts.
Vast Martial Arts knowledge in various traditions other than HKD.
Very open minded to new ideas techniques & variations of HKD.
Openly accepts the fact there are many clones that come directly from him.

I hope this helps?


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## glad2bhere (Aug 4, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

Yep, NOW we're getting somewhere!!! Both your post and Rudys', I think ,begin to speak to putting the "martial" into martial art and for me THATS what makes a leader! For my part, anybody can open schools and anybody can collect fees for doing seminars. Its the desire to become more than what a person starts with that a good teacher and leader instills in their students and cadre. So when did you first notice that you wanted to do things HIS (Jis') way rather than just take what he was teaching and integrate it into your own way of doing things? Was there a particular moment or is it something you noted over a period of time? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Hanzo04 (Aug 4, 2004)

an up and coming leader of american hapkido is master chris garland of executive martial arts who teaches jin jung kwan hapkido. and korean master would Bong Soo Han.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 4, 2004)

All I know about Chris Garland was his role in the article by Ji Han Jae not so long ago. Seems there was some exception taken to the way he characterized his place in the matter of succession. Does anyone know Master Garland well enough to speak to this, or his priorities in teaching?  Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Aug 4, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

......So when did you first notice that you wanted to do things HIS (Jis') way rather than just take what he was teaching and integrate it into your own way of doing things? Was there a particular moment or is it something you noted over a period of time?......

Interesting question and also not a simple one. I cant say I do things like Ji after all everyone's different.

Basically I alway had the veiw that a MA Master was more like Kwai Chang Cain of the TV series Kung Fu rather than someone who knows how to fight (no morals or ethics etc.) 

Ji Han Jae seemed to be the first person in my 25 years in MA that I see has the whole picture of MA, thats similar to my thoughts of MA. 

Although I studies for many years with Master Son a very humble and honest man and also some very fine Korean Masters they didn't have the philosophy behind Hapkido that I was looking for. When I question my teacher over the years nothing really came out of it because he didn't really know.

When I was invited by Master Ji to train with him last summer (just for the record when myself and Hackworth and my teacher met Master Ji at the meeting that never took place) I didn't know what to except. I just felt it would be good to learn from the source and my Master said he's number one in the world and I should go. 

So I was very surpised to find a humble man teaching and practicing a spiritual form of Hapkido. As time went on I realized he's the REAL THING! and not a put on.

One more point I believe HKD is missing a standard philosophy to the Art it has some general concepts that vary from Kwan to Kwan but no prescribed philosophy. 
I also don't think Choi Yong Sool wasn't educated in any philosophy and I think he taught only phyiscal techniques.

Ji studied Korean Taoisism as well as Chinese & Japanese versions of Taoism to form Sin Moo he also claims to learned the mental aspects from Taoist Lee and Grandma.


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## kwanjang (Aug 4, 2004)

From what I had previously heard, and now with Master Rosenberg's further information, I think GM Ji teaches what I envision martial arts to be.  I met GM Ji at one of the WKSA functions where he demonstrated.  He certainly seemed to walk his talk, and he was humble to boot... I liked that a lot


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## American HKD (Aug 5, 2004)

Dear Rudy,

I'm glad to hear there's more Masters with the same vision about MA. 

I don't think too many people realize that aspect of MA because it's not taught in any systematic way as part of Traditional Hapkido. 

Sin Moo teaches these philosophies from white belt. Some of the pholosophy is Taoist based and hard to really due if your not a monk, but most is very practically applied to everyday life.

Sin Moo http://www.sinmoohapkido.com/mindbody.html they do list some phiolosphy there.


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 5, 2004)

I also don't think Choi Yong Sool wasn't educated in any philosophy and I think he taught only phyiscal techniques.


According to GM Lim, Doju Nim Choi's philosophy was 
Wha-Harmony, Won-Complete, Yu-Dynamic.

These principles apply to technique as well as everyday life and in my opinion they make Hapkido totally complete and spiritual.  I think today with the many different groups you have to be very careful of grouping ALL Hapkido in the same circle. :supcool: 

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Aug 5, 2004)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> I also don't think Choi Yong Sool wasn't educated in any philosophy and I think he taught only phyiscal techniques.
> 
> 
> According to GM Lim, Doju Nim Choi's philosophy was
> ...



Many of us are not educated in philosophy, and the classes I had in that discipline were merely "fill ins" to earn my degree in Exercise Science and Rec Management.  Yet, I believe that there are a number of Instructors who simply try to do "the right thing", and thus they teach a philosophy that is as good as it gets IMHO.  Seen my share of "educated" people who sadly lack the moral fibers to do much good to their family and friends... let alone to the art we love.

As Master Miller said... it behoeves you to be careful.

Master Rosenberg:
Thank you sir... we keep trying, making more mistakes, and try again


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## glad2bhere (Aug 5, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

"....According to GM Lim, Doju Nim Choi's philosophy was 
Wha-Harmony, Won-Complete, Yu-Dynamic....." 

In our own kwan we identify these as the THREE PILLARS of HAPKIDO. Our take is a bit different though you can still hear the same general themes. 

The Water Principle

The Point and Circle Principle 

The Economy of Energy Principle. 

What shocks me is the point everyone seems to be coming back to. People go as far as teaching these principles in the physical sense as part of the physical art, but the intellectual, emotional and spiritual parts get lost repeatedly. Its not like this is any big secret in KMA. For centuries people who led armies knew that they not only had to have well-drilled soldiers, but soldiers who knew what they were doing, who had conquered fear, loneliness and boredom and who had the power of their convictions in what they were fighting for. Seems like nowadays people workout for things like weight-control or to face down the local bully. But I am truely appalled at what passes for mentoring with some of the supposed leaders. Stuart seems very taken with Ji and his deportment and demeanor. I don't hear a lot of other people piping up, though, and that troubles me some. Maybe "cash-and-carry" is what the modern practitioner wants. In that way the student won't ask too much of his teacher if the teacher doesn't ask too much of his student, right? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Aug 5, 2004)

Greeting,

Todd & Rudy

I'm sorry I was'nt clear enough.

I meant Taoist or Buddist type philosophy which is more specialized type of philosophy if one want to live by them. That does requires much more study then one gets in the average Dojang or a few college courses.

As far a the 3 principle of Hapkido being spiritual in nature I agree in some sense. Ying/Yang and Unity etc.

My personal Philosphy is also very simple; 

"*Dont to to others what you dont want done to you" the Golden Rule!*


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 5, 2004)

My personal Philosphy is also very simple; 

"Dont do to others what you dont want done to you" the Golden Rule!

I agree, Treating others as you would like to be treated, is very important to growth.  The trick is to treat them well even when they do not desearve it!

Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## iron_ox (Aug 5, 2004)

Hello all,

A few things:

I think that anyone that has the "brass ones" to stand up and post here is a leader - becasue you believe in something or are brave enough to ask a question.

Second, I think to assume that Choi Yong Sul had no education (formal or informal) is unwise.  He lived with an admitted paranoid (Takeda Sokaku) for 30+ years, and survived two major wars in his own backyard (WWII and Korean War) - this is an education in itself. Upon his return to Korea, he seemed indifferent to what he did to support his family (raise pigs, teach self defense, whatever) - he learned a brutal, no nonsense form of defense and taught it as such - what is probably most interesting is that despite the fact that he may not have taught religious philosophy, he clearly gave a core set of values from which to build on.  Whatever other intructors added later is fine if it works for you, but in my opinion, it was the flexible way Choi taught that gave rise to the addition of the more religious philosophies.  I also say this because many make assumptions about the education of Choi, saying for example that he was illterate, well I've seen letters he wrote, so maybe we should assume a little less.

Sincerely,
Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox (Aug 5, 2004)

Hello all,

Hey, I think Kwanjang Rudy should count - even though he is not from the USA!  LOL


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## American HKD (Aug 5, 2004)

Dear Everyone,

I did'nt mean to sound disrespectful to Choi, and I'm sure he was very "Street Smart" as Kevin suggested.

Philosophy at some point becomes a scholarly endevor to a higher degree then one can get in a Dojang is my only point and I would'nt mind seeing a more developed systemized Philosophy for Hapkido in general such as Sin Moo. 

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting Sin Moo HKD is for everyone and everybody. 

All I'm saying is that IMHO Sin Moo is a more complete Hapkido philosophy then any I know of to date. 

If someone knows about others I'd love to hear about it.


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 5, 2004)

All I'm saying is that IMHO Sin Moo is a more complete Hapkido philosophy then any I know of to date

I totally disagree!  No dissrespect intended.  The completeness of what Doju Nim Choi taught took more than a few years to understand and GM Ji did not train with DJN Choi for very long!  No dissrespect to GM Ji.  There are many different ways to approach the Hapkido arts.  The base will always be DJN Choi!

Take care
Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com 
:asian:


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## kwanjang (Aug 6, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Hey, I think Kwanjang Rudy should count - even though he is not from the USA!  LOL



Thank You Master Sogor  Actually I was born in Holland, and I came to Canada in 1958.  I live right on the border of MI, and I actually did my BSc at LSSU in MI.  Lived in Michigan for quite some time.  I guess not being a born and bred Canadian, I feel like I am at home in both places.  I must say that people treat me good in both places, and I am very grateful for that  Been back to Holland several times to do seminars, and I feel less at home there than I do in the US.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 6, 2004)

I don't think we could stress Kevins' post too much. True enough that I have also heard about Choi' illiteracy but some of the most insightful things I have heard came out of the mouths' of folks who had been on the street since they were children. Learning to survive based on ones' own wits tends to bring out some pretty pragmatic wisdom about the way people are together. The trick, as I see it, is how well a person can pass that wisdom on or encourage it in other people. Listening to the antecdotal information that comes up now and again, Idon't hear a lot about what Choi said or thought. Maybe some of this will come out more as time goes on. In the meantime I must say that I hear only Ji Han Jae and Rudy Timmerman identified as individuals who folks would like to emmulate in the Hapkido community. I'd like to think there are more, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Aug 6, 2004)

Dear Todd,

You wrote

.......I totally disagree! No dissrespect intended. The completeness of what Doju Nim Choi taught took more than a few years to understand and GM Ji did not train with DJN Choi for very long! No dissrespect to GM Ji. There are many different ways to approach the Hapkido arts. The base will always be DJN Choi!........

I never feel direspected from a friendly discussion and I agree there are many branches of the tree. 

It's true that the 3 main principles of HKD were taught by Choi or basically that's Aiki-JuJutsu or Yawara theory dating back hundreds of years?

As a Jung Ki practioner your lines not stemming from Ji's tradition you may not be fully aware of Ji's background. 

Also as you say Ji trained with Choi for only 7 years, but Ji claims as I posted earlier in the thread that he learned spiritual training from 2 other folks, Taoist Lee & Grandma. 

Ji has a well documented writen Philosophy he teaches his students complete with several advanced methods of meditations and breathing, how to eat, attitudes about life treating your fellow man etc. very specific stuff.

Ji studied Korean Taoism and other subjects to develop Sin Moo. He started teaching it in 1983/84 however his studies began when he was in his late teens years. So over all Sin Moo philosophy took 25 plus years to develope. As you see the time he spent with Choi was not the basis for Sin Moo. 

What did Choi or his succesors put on paper as a Hapkido philosophy other than the 3 principles? 

Can you post it here? 

I'm not trying to put you on the spot maybe there's something handed down through your tradition that many of us haven't had the opportunity to see?


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## iron_ox (Aug 6, 2004)

Hello all,

I was considering the original question posed in this thread and wondering just how weird it is to try and quantify leadership.  I am a little more familiar with the guys and gals that post here, and for me that makes them leaders.  But for the rest of the country, or world, how does one establish leadership?

magazines used to be the way in which I would find out who was who, but since I have come to learn that being on the cover is not an honor, but just a payment to the magazine, I question now if that was leadership or a large pocketbook.

Let me speak a minute of my back yard, Chicago.  There have been Hapkido guys here for about 30 years, and several still have active and thriving schools.  But are they leaders?  I wonder.  They are not active at all outside there own dojangs, and save the folks here that may have trained with them, they are unknown - even after 30 years.  My point is that I think that part of leadership is exposure, and (not always commercial) name recognition - we may all have different perspectives on Hapkido - cool beans - but these perspectives have to be available for the public so that Hapkido is no longer seen as a Taekwondo add on.

Stuart, you are an EXCELLENT "spokesman" (for lack of a better word) for JI Han Jae, the way you describe Sin Moo actually makes me look at it in a different light.  Thanks for that.

Kwanjang Rudy, please call me Kevin, being called by a title :lol:  :lol:  has always weirded me out.   

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere (Aug 6, 2004)

The idea of "exposure" is definitely important. In the little exchange on another string that was the point I was trying to make using myself as an example. people can talk all they want about following a Warriors' Path" but the question is when does one put that position out for people to see? I'm not talking about riding the "L" in the early morning hours looking for trouble, or working as a bouncer in a club. I'm talking about doing things that you have every reason NOT to do, but you do it because it makes the community a little better for having done it. The reason I tie this into "exposure" is that in being seen to do such things you then become a mentor to folks that may have had the same thought but couldn't bring themselves to act. I know I might step on some toes here but I have the belief that this is why I don't take someone like Chang Chin Il and put him forward as a teacher and leader. Not that the guy doesn't have his credentials. Its just that I think that a person who pulls off by himself and makes it hard to access his classes is not fullfilling his role as a leader. A leader, to me,  puts something at risk. People need to know what that person stands for, to see them lead a satisfying life proceeding from that position and be able to teach those skills to others. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Aug 6, 2004)

Dear Kevin,

I mainly studied under one Master in Philadelphia since the 1979 until the last couple of years through the internet have I had the chance to find out about many other Hapkidoin. 

My teacher is a great technician, a good instructor, and a good man, in Korea his Kwan was known for thier kicks and thier throwing and locking skills but here he's not known at all. Nobody's seeking him out for anything.

I don't consider him a leader in Hapkido other than in his school he's just a man doing his own thing with his own school. 

Just a few people in each generation are ever respected universally as world wide leaders of anything. 

There's an old saying that "Each person is only responsible to what they come in contact with". Within that realm each person can be a leader that's how I see myself and you yours etc.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 6, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

I want to agree with you but I keep sticking on that one point of a person pulling off by themselves. I know that there is almost an archetype associated with the solitary MA practitioner or the "Mr Miyagi" character who is highly accomplished but unrecognized in his daily life. I know in my own life I have gotten really fed-up with some of the crap that goes on with these various nets, organizations and events. More than a few times I wanted to fold my tent and pull-off to one side myself. I think, if one is truely, honestly committed to the KMA they will be looking for ways to pitch back into the pot without expecting compensation. Just this string here is a good example. Think about how many lurkers there are who are reading this material right now and hearing what we are saying about the qualities of good leadership. I bet none of those folks are going to make any huge changes in their behaviors in the next day or so, but maybe we are giving them pause to think, yes? What if In Hyuk Suh or Joo Bang Lee is reading this and says to himself, "hey, good point. Lets give that a try." I doubt he is going to report the influence to the world but maybe it will influence how he promotes policy with his organization. For my part I would like to see a whole lot more of those big names getting off their chairs and out of the office to rub elbows with the "common man", ya know? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kumbajah (Aug 6, 2004)

I have been reluctant to respond to this post in fear of looking just like a cheerleader for my GM Kim Jin Pal. I did a Marriam-Webster  search  for leader.  

2 : a person who leads : as a : GUIDE, CONDUCTOR b (1) : a person who directs a military force or unit (2) : a person who has commanding authority or influence

That didn't seem to encompass what we are talking about. So I followed the synonym "guide". 

1 a : one that leads or directs another's way b : a person who exhibits and explains points of interest c : something that provides a person with guiding information d : SIGNPOST 1 e : a person who directs another's conduct or course of life

This seems to be what we are talking about. It is more the whole "finger pointing at the moon" scenario.  Now,  the original post was "who are the prominent leaders in the USA" I think this has more to do with exposure, "prominent" being the key word, than whether you agree with where they are leading or not. So as for well known leaders  in no particular order off the top of my head- Whalen, West, Timmerman, Han Bong Soo, Pellegrini, Ji Han Jae, Myung, Rim, Wollmershauser, Shaw, and yes, even Hackworth. (please excuse any omissions that you deemed necessary they weren't intentional) 

Now would I like to associate with all those names, most but not all, one never. But I know the names when I look for hapkido information in the US/NA those names come up. So this is a small and not even close to a complete look at Hapkido in the US. From the outside looking in that is the picture that you get.  If you are a member of some BBS there are other names that come up like Bruce and Fabian, Stewart, Ray Terry etc. A larger picture but still not complete. So with our leaders like any community you have some good, some eh, and some downright wrong.

I didn't include my GM in the list because although well known in korean national circles and perhaps their students. I don't think he is as prominent in the same manner as the aforementioned names. But he does fit the the "guide" definition. He's seen a lot, knows a lot and is willing to share a lot. And I think thats all you can ask for. 

Brian


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## iron_ox (Aug 6, 2004)

Brian,

I think you hit the nail on the head!!! Great post - and hey, this is the place to get exposure, so I would say by all means promote those of prominence here.


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

ps ain't Scott Shaw from Austrailia?


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## American HKD (Aug 6, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

You wrote

.......A leader, to me, puts something at risk. People need to know what that person stands for, to see them lead a satisfying life proceeding from that position and be able to teach those skills to others.....

To me these people fit the bill in the US of course each with-in thier own capacity.

I think after hearing everyones thoughts my conclusion would seems to be IMO.

Ji Han Jae? Kwang Sik Myung? Kim Jin Pal? Tae Jung? Hwang In Sik? JR West?
Rudy Timmerman? Hal Walen? Bruce?, Stuart?, Kevin?, Todd? unknown, unknown, etc.

All of the above leaders in thier own right as long as they're doing the right thing for the Art and thier students and are trying to better themselves.


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## iron_ox (Aug 6, 2004)

Hello all,

This sounds frightfully close to a concessus to me - this may be a first - we all agree on something!!!  

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang (Aug 8, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> ...
> Kwanjang Rudy, please call me Kevin, being called by a title :lol:  :lol:  has always weirded me out.
> 
> Sincerely,
> ...



Hello Kevin:
Thank you for your courtesey.... I am much the same and I also like to have folks use my first name.  It just seems a bit more personal on a forum like this; however, I just don't want to offend anyone who prefers titles.   Being somewhat new on the block here, I am not yet familiar with the rules

While I truly appreciate seeing my name mentioned on this very honorable list, I am quite sure that I am not on the same page as most of the folks mentioned there.  After suffering a severe back injury in 1983, I just consider myself a coach who still likes to do whatever he can 'cause I simply love the arts (and I love to share and learn).  My white belt is a permanent part of my gear bag, and I wear it as proud as any belt I've ever earned.

This thread bring me to another thought.  As I look over the list, I see that a number of us live in a reasonable distance from one another.  Would it not be a great thing to make some efforts to get together once a year to get on the mat and share with one another.  I enjoy my annual trip to MS, and I'd love to go to Florida to work with Hal, but that is a long way for me.  

Something in the Mid West would be great for quite a number of people.  We have an NKMAA annual in Ohio, and perhaps we can get together there (or elsewhere) to enjoy each others' company.  Thoughts????


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 9, 2004)

Bruce,

I know Chris. He is a talented Hapkidoin. The man trains arguably harder than any Korean I have laid eyes on, and is a perfect representation of JinJunKwan Hapkido. I'm not sure of the relationship between he, and Dojunim though, asI have not had the opportunity to discuss it with him. He holds a Yuk Dan and is more than happy to travel anywhere, anytime to get on the mat with someone who doubts his abilities.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

".....All of the above leaders in thier own right as long as they're doing the right thing for the Art and thier students and are trying to better themselves...." 

I have been realy enjoying this string, but I also notice that there is something that people seem to be stepping around and not talking about. Nobody has said anything about criticism. For me I see two possible aspects to talk about in this regard. 

One aspect is the ability of the individual ("leader") to accept criticism. When I say "accept" I am talking about hearing a judgement, listening to that judgement, acknowledging the pro-s and cons of that judgment and then making changes in response to that judgement. For myself, I think this is a huge part of trying to be as "transparent" on discussion nets as possible. When a leader, somehow puts himself beyond criticism I think its a dangerous course of action. 

The other part I see is when followers of an individual --- even well-meaning followers---- want to put a person beyond criticism. For instance, I have heard people say that it is disrespectful to discuss Chois' background as it somehow shows disrespect for that leader even though he is now deceased. Once again, I think this is a dangerous course of action. Is anyone willing to discuss the role of criticism in discussing our present Hapkido leadership? Does anyone want to suggest guidelines for expressing criticism of Hapkido personalities? Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Aug 9, 2004)

Does anyone want to suggest guidelines for expressing criticism of Hapkido personalities? Thoughts? Comments? 

No person is above criticism, but problems arise when constructive criticism becomes defaming. There is a thin line between the two. As for guidelines to differentiate, I would suggest the use of any adjective (discripitive word; i.e. Lousy, Bum, Fraud, etc.), that could/would be used in reference to someone not be used or tempered. Discussion viewpoints can be made without resorting to slamming, at least in my opinion.   :asian:


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## American HKD (Aug 9, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

People like Choi, Ji, Myung as heads or leaders will automatically draw inquires as to who they are, where they came from etc. Jealousy may have something to do with negative comments about someone which is wrong for sure.  

We should be able to question our so called leaders in a respectful way, if they not up to the scrutiny there's a problem somewhere? 

Doju Ji will answer any question about his past to when asked in a friendly and respectful way esspecially by his students. An outsider or a challenger may not be seen the same way. 
I heard him refer to Choi as his Master there's no problem there.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 9, 2004)

I was not thinking so much in terms of what has happened in the past. Actually if people are still bending the past around at this late date I don't know that there is much we can do, yes?  Rather, I was thinking about the way things are done on a regular basis in the here and now. Here are a few examples. 

1.) The identified leader has not specified a person or group of persons to act in the event that he (the leader) is incapcitated.

2.) Recognition of a person or group of people does not sit well with the balance of the practitioners in a particular group. 

3.) Members of a group or organization desire to review a policy, modify material or revisit accepted standards. 

4.) Individuals express a desire to shift the priorities or premises of the arts' stated philosophy. 

5.) Introduction or updating of teaching model or priorities. 

6.) Introduction of new, or elimination of old business practices. 

I hear these things pop-up in discussions off-and-on and wonder how one critiques leadership when there are behaviors such as these being considered.  I know most of the time the pat answer is "go ask him", the answer is "no" and people "vote with their feet".  I'm wondering if there is a way of formenting change even in traditional venues that might well reduce the amount of splintering in Hapkido organizations.  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 10, 2004)

What did Choi or his succesors put on paper as a Hapkido philosophy other than the 3 principles? 

You can go to the Jungki Kwan web page or my website and look at the Hapkido section to find our philosophy.  I looked at GM Ji's 9 rules and to be honest it sounds very hoaky to me!

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Aug 11, 2004)

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to find myself chest-deep in the sort of revisionist stuff the Japanese culture went through in the last couple hundred years. I read some of the romantic crap about how the Samurai warrior class epitomized the warrior ideal and I have to wonder what history these folks were reading! What makes me sad is that the Korean culture had a set of standards in place for generations and its hard to find any KMA that hasn't substituted imported philosophy for what they had at home. Still, if the leader can model how to make a given philosophy work in his life and imbue his students with the desire to emmulate him does it really matter if someone else sees those life skills as hoaky or not?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 12, 2004)

What makes me sad is that the Korean culture had a set of standards in place for generations and its hard to find any KMA that hasn't substituted imported philosophy for what they had at home. Still, if the leader can model how to make a given philosophy work in his life and imbue his students with the desire to emmulate him does it really matter if someone else sees those life skills as hoaky or not? FWIW. 


If you look at the Jungki  Web page you will see that the philosophy is Korean not imported from elsewhere!  Bruce, Have you looked at GM Ji's 9 rules?  :whip: 

Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## American HKD (Aug 12, 2004)

Dear Todd,

I think your calling Ji's SinMoo philosophy "hoaky" and asking Bruce to agree with you sounds very much like your trying making fun and or being dis-respectful I hope that's not the case? 

After reading the Jung Ki Philosophy you suggested I don't find anything new or unique? What I mean by that is it's the same thing we learned in HKD before SinMoo HKD was established by Doju Ji. 

You seem to keep missing the point or trying to seperate Jung Ki HKD from HKD but *we have the same roots*. Ji was an instructor under Choi Yong Sul and one of his first students in Korea they also had a long term relationship part of the first HKD assoc. It would go to reason that most Hapkidoin are taught the same or very similar HKD
philosophy.


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 12, 2004)

I think your calling Ji's SinMoo philosophy "hoaky" and asking Bruce to agree with you sounds very much like your trying making fun and or being dis-respectful I hope that's not the case? 


Lets clarify some things!  I was not asking Bruce or anyone else to agree with my opinion!  I meant no dissrespect to GM Ji.  I do think that Ji's 9 rules sound less like a philosophy and more like a religeous rule book!  My view is all things in moderation.

I would be interested what others think of Ji's 9 rules not GM Ji.

Take care
Todd

Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Aug 12, 2004)

I was not going to comment on the message as much as support anyone who has the courage to be a messenger. Over in the TKD forum they are talking about how TKD gets such a bad rap, but the fact is that many of the TKD personages did that to themselves. It takes character to profess a standard and encourage other people to live by a standard. A lot of those MA folks were too afraid of alienating their clientele. Taken a step farther it takes character to turn that standard into action for the betterment of the community. A little bit ago I got a circular from a doctors' group that does cleft-lip surgery for impoverished kids in South America. Costs about $250 a kid to have their faces mended and it changes a life forever. We got people on this net who spend a whole lot more than $250 on a weekend out, a prom, a home-coming or Spring Break. I keep waiting for these self-identified "grand masters", "kwan jang" and so forth to show what they are made of and encourage their cadre to get out and make a difference. I'm still waiting.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Aug 12, 2004)

Dear Todd,

I accept your answer but to single out 9 rules and to comment or judge them is totally ridiculous. The 9 rules is only small part of the whole and it wouldn't be a fair comment from anyone who has'nt studied the philosophy.

I'm sure you see my point, it would be like a white belt in Jung Ki telling you this technique is Hoaky etc. 

In short SinMoo is based largely on Korean Taoism. Taoism came from China in the 4 or 5th century and is credited to a man named Lao Tzu. Taoism is a Major Chinese philosophy regarded as a hugh work and Lao Tzu a giant thinker. Taoism is not considered a religion but as way of life.  
Tao is Chinese for "Do" or "way". So Taoism mean the "WAY". The same as in Hap Ki Do.

A little background about myself I have studied Taoism for 25years I'm not a Taoist per se but highly regard the lessons it contains. My wife is Chinese and was raised around Buddists and Taoists which adds to my insight.

Ji's SinMoo is not a religion but contains many Taoist like ideas. These ideas are usually contained in short sayings or phases like the 9 rules. Each one is a philosophical ideas if you will. Each idea is a study in itself, so to understand and internalize each idea in Taoism takes basically forever.

Important point: 
Don't mis-understand what actually seems like "simple ideas" as Hoaky the "simpleness is the beauty of Taoism". We sometimes pass right over the simple as not important or irrealavent.

If your interested I encourge you to read about it.


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## kwanjang (Aug 12, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...I keep waiting for these self-identified "grand masters", "kwan jang" and so forth to show what they are made of and encourage their cadre to get out and make a difference. I'm still waiting.  FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Hello Bruce:  I did not realize you were waiting   Last week, my students and I raised over three thousand dollars to help a student from another school who has terminal cancer.  His own school mates had not bothered, so I took on the challenge.  We had a great time, and by the way this person reacted it was quite obvious that it helped him cover some expenses he had not been able to take care of.

I am not sure if you remember the seminar I did in your neck of the woods.  The entire proceeds of that went to one of your local people who needed some help.  It seems strange to me that his own students did not take care of that, and it was even more bizarre that I received a less than flattering email from the president of the association this person belonged to.  His worry was that I had not "asked" him for permission to do the seminar??????  Oh well... I just keep on doing my thing in the know that the folks that matter appreciate the little things I can do  Some of us do our best to walk our talk, but we prefer not to talk about it.


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## glad2bhere (Aug 13, 2004)

BINGO!!!!  Exactly my point! 

"...... Last week, my students and I raised over three thousand dollars to help a student from another school who has terminal cancer. His own school mates had not bothered, so I took on the challenge......

It seems strange to me that his own students did not take care of that, and it was even more bizarre that I received a less than flattering email from the president of the association this person belonged to. His worry was that I had not "asked" him for permission to do the seminar?????? Oh well... I just keep on doing my thing in the know that the folks that matter appreciate the little things I can do Some of us do our best to walk our talk, but we prefer not to talk about it......" 

This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about. You are modeling exactly what people need to be doing. I suppose some people would say "if I wanted to join the "Boy Scouts" I would", but just what do these folks think this is about? The whole idea of martial discipline is to develop the sort of character that gives a person the strength to do things when they have every other reason not to. I hope you keep doing what you are doing. In fact I hope it gets plastered across the media for everybody to see. I would love to see the faces of these other big names rubbed in this and have them exposed for how small-minded they are. I've watched for years now as the better-known personalities talk about high-flown ethics and ideals, then when its time to put things into action they are nothing more than commerce in a do-bok. I'd like nothing better than to have people finally see their hypocrisy for what it is. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Aug 13, 2004)

Hello all,

Wanted to chime in...

I have always seen Hapkido as a war art.  Self-defense, no-nonsense, practical and real.  From all that I understand, Choi, Yong Sul taught Hapkido with three basic theories,and some, but not a lot of "philosophy" - that was left up to the students - take the theories and expand/elaborate on them.  SO, that is how we arrive at the large nuber of different philosophical ideas currently seen at dojangs.

Philosophy is like an opinion, it can be discussed, it can be disagreed with, but someone's philosophy is never wrong for them or those that choose to follow it.  Philosophy can be tied directly to the faith one has in it, and you just can't fight faith - if you really believe in something I ain't really gonna change your mind...

I don't argue philosophy for this reason - lineage, or technical knowledge, that is another matter.

As for the idea of rallying the troops for a cause, I am still on the fence here.  I am really not convinced that my dojang should be a hub for community service...but I do like the idea of occasionally helping out a group or individual.  

In terms of leadership,  I think of a single thing, if I am a leader in humane and ethical treatment to my students, I believe they will be the same outside the dojang.

Kwanjang Rudy, funny story of the organization head that wanted you to have his "permission" - probably just wanted a cut of the money - good for you to stick to it and help.

Here is another avenue of leadership...

I would rather pass on a recommendation to another Hapkido Dojang to someone - even with different training and philosophical standards than lose them to another art.  Further, I would rather recommend another art than lose someone to (say) volleyball.  We don't all have to be driking buddies, but as instructors and leaders, we owe it to people we know or don't know  to find their own path in Hapkido (or martial arts).  That's leadership to me.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 13, 2004)

Important point: 
Don't mis-understand what actually seems like "simple ideas" as Hoaky the "simpleness is the beauty of Taoism". We sometimes pass right over the simple as not important or irrealavent.

I believe in keeping things simple.  Adding rules and too many other things takes away from Hapkido rather than adding to it.  IMHO

Stuart,

I have also studied Taoism,  and have a decent understanding of it.  I think it is important for serious practitioners of Korean Mudo to become aware of the different veiws of life and how Korean culture has developed but that is only to enhance my understanding of Korean culture.

I am not trying to separate from other Hapkidoin but to give credit where it is due.  Choi, Yong Sool is the founder and father of the Hapkido arts!

Take care
Todd
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## masterswife (Aug 13, 2004)

Hi:
Just stopping by. Great conversations and glad to see that really deep and insightful conversations take place here. I truly enjoy reading the posts. 

Take Care,

Joannie Wollmershauser


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## kwanjang (Aug 13, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> ...Kwanjang Rudy, funny story of the organization head that wanted you to have his "permission" - probably just wanted a cut of the money - good for you to stick to it and help....
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kevin Sogor



Hello Kevin.  To be honest, I believe the individual was more concerned with protocol than money.  I just did not feel it my responsibility to do someone a favor and ask for permission to do that.  I felt that this, if it was required at all in the first place, would be the repsonsibility of the dojang owner to settle with his Master.

If something like that would happen in my org.  I would jump in and do my best to make the event even better in any way I could.  IMHO... the focus of the seminar was to help someone in need, and I would be thankful to anyone who would help one of my people.

On a broader scale.  I do these things on a regular basis, because I believe that teaching fighting skills needs to be tempered by a genuine caring for other people.  Without that, I would be afraid the skills I teach my students might be used for the wrong reasons.  The philosophy I teach in my school is more akin to what my mom and dad taught me about right and wrong.  FWIW, it does give ME the peace of mind I look for in martial arts, and I guess I am just a tad selfish about that

Don't get me wrong... the classes I personally teach are the old fashioned type where I still rule with the Jook Do (I don't do kids classes myself for obvious reasons, and I try to make them as hard nosed as the way I was taught by my Master.  I believe that many schools have gone overboard on the soft approach of cuddling their students.  My own school has this type of class two days a week, and I am personally very uncomfortable there.  Alas, we need to keep the doors open, so I have to provide the soft touch service to those who can't handle the old time classes.


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## American HKD (Aug 13, 2004)

Dear Todd,

That's all cool we just have a little different opinions in that area. 

Sometimes talking politics or religion is difficult even among friends.


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## American HKD (Aug 13, 2004)

Dear Rudy,

Well Done!


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## glad2bhere (Aug 13, 2004)

Dear Rudy, Stuart et al: 

Drawing back to my earlier post, however, one aspect remains un-addressed. 

We can see from Rudys' post that such guidance is possible. We can see from peoples' reactions to Rudys' post that such actions are admired and desireable. Touching on my earlier question, are we martial arts practitioners empowered to approach the leaders of our respective disciplines if we find such desireable behaviors lacking in our own associations?  Taken a step farther, are we empowered to challenge our leaderships to communicate with other leaders in the best interests of solidarity? For instance, if GM Lee and GM Kim (fictitious people) don't talk, or had a falling out, are competitors etc etc etc are we required to continue that schism? Are we disallowed from challenging our leaders to reconcile in the best interests of the Hapkido arts? And if the leaders fail to reconcile, are we practitioners then required to honor those differences or risk losing the authentication of our affiliations? 

Let me bring this down to a case. 

If GM Myung and GM Ji had a falling out. Now there is a Sin Mu Hapkido and a WHF. Lets say I approach Myung and Ji and they don't want to speak to each other. According to Confucian tradition I am bound to honor my teachers' wishes. His schism is my schism, yes? So now I don't interact with Ji students (save behind my teachers' back) nor do I attend any of Jis' seminars or classes. And this is "why", exactly? Because a couple of grown gentlemen aren't speaking to each other?  What about the many people cast out by Joo Bang Lee?  What about the split between In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo? What about the many subsequent splits?  What if "I" don't WANT a split!?! What if "I" want to see more people working together?? Am I suppose to honor these splits, ostracisms, and banishments because my teacher says so? 

On the lighter side we can talk about supporting activities that improve our communities. But on the heavier side I think we must face a very real question of what level of empowerment practitioners have in the nature of their arts, what we expect from our leaders and how much influence we have regarding what happens to these arts as time goes on. Thoghts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Aug 13, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...If GM Myung and GM Ji had a falling out. Now there is a Sin Mu Hapkido and a WHF. Lets say I approach Myung and Ji and they don't want to speak to each other. According to Confucian tradition I am bound to honor my teachers' wishes. His schism is my schism, yes? So now I don't interact with Ji students (save behind my teachers' back) nor do I attend any of Jis' seminars or classes. And this is "why", exactly? Because a couple of grown gentlemen aren't speaking to each other?  What about the many people cast out by Joo Bang Lee?  What about the split between In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo? What about the many subsequent splits?  What if "I" don't WANT a split!?! What if "I" want to see more people working together?? Am I suppose to honor these splits, ostracisms, and banishments because my teacher says so?...
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Stuart and Bruce: Thanks, but I honestly think that most martial artists would do no less.  I have my parents to thank for raising me to be helpful to others, and I am glad of it... it makes a man feel downright good to do something like that.

Regarding your next concern of following the leader in the case of a split.  As some of you know, I have been through this very thing several times.  When GM Pak split away from GM Suh, and later when I myself left GM Suh.  In the first instance of the split between GM Pak (and a bunch of other Korean Masters) and GM Suh, I maintained a working relationship between myself and both GM's.  Each of them knew that I would not be pressured into this fray, and they apparently were OK with that.

When I later left WKSA (GM Suh), I told my students that my problem with WKSA was mine alone, and I expected no support from them.  Today, I am still on friendly terms with a bunch of WKSA people, and I am glad to say my students also have friends on both sides of the fence.

On the other side of the coin:
I received a letter from a student of mine who eleced to stay with WKSA (I taught the man for more than thirty years and was the best man at his wedding.  In fact, I was the person who sponsored him into Canada when he married one of my students).  He advised me that I was no longer welcome at his tournaments, because GM Suh forbade him and his students to talk or associate with me.  Sad end to a long friendship, and the funny thing is that my ex student no longer trains and gave up his school to one of his students.  He not only lost a friend, but he also lost his zest for martial arts... too much politics

While I was away for nearly a year to open another school, I lost about half of my students when my school was raided by another one of my former students who stayed with WKSA (I had left this man in charge of my school while I was away).  Nearly all of these students no longer train with him or anywhere for that matter, and I picked up seven WKSA schools in three different countries after all was said and done.  I did not go looking for these folks, they simply came because they also did not care for the direction WKSA was heading.  

FWIW, my answer to your question is that I do not and will not tell my students who they can or cannot associate with, for I know that would come back to haunt me someday.  I say that, because the folks who betrayed my trust in them are now apparently ashamed to come back.  Hence they have lost more than I did, and I would not want anyone to take such a loss on my account.   I just lost a few disloyal students... they lost a good friend, and a teacher who cared for them (perhaps a bit too much) instead of $$$.


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## American HKD (Aug 13, 2004)

Greetings,

I belong to 3 MA Orgs. not all HKD the main reason for that in my case is to meet differant people and learn from everyone to become better myself. There are many talented people out there. 

I thinks everyone should get along with everyone and holding the grudges of others only continues to perpetuate hatred.

I've held seminars for my students in Brazilian & Japanese grappling Arts as well as off shoots of Hapkido. As long as a student is serious about Hapkido in my classes and acts respectful I don't care what else they learn or from who.


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## Black Belt FC (Aug 13, 2004)

Glad to see this topic is doing well with little dissent.





Lugo


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## glad2bhere (Aug 14, 2004)

Once again, let me say that Rudy is modeling the way things need to go. It can be done and needs very much TO be done. What I am seeking is feedback regarding those situations where such acceptance--- if you will, "tolerance"---- is NOT being practiced. 

We all are aware of situations in which leaders have decided not to interact with, or perhaps allow interaction with other Hapkido entities. When such situations arise among Hapkido leaders, other than "voting with your feet", what are the options for membership? Can members approach leadership for easements to attend other Hapkido events without jeopardizing their relationships with their own organizations? What would be an acceptable approach for seeking modification in organizational policy? How about the number of Hapkido organizations?  Do we really need as many as we have? Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Aug 14, 2004)

Hello all,

OK, how about this, why not start to show our leadership as a group ON THIS BOARD by say becoming supporting members - looks like is costs $12 a year - that is CHEAP for a board of this quality.  I really post nowhere else now and I would say supporting this Board might be a very positive step...

More importantly, as a group, Hapkidoin have often been labeled as whiners because of all our infighting - well, here is an interesting opportunity to show otherwise...

Just a thought, and one I think worth doing...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox (Aug 14, 2004)

Gee, that was easier than I thought...

And it felt good to give to this group to help ensure we can continue to have these discussions...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang (Aug 14, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ...We all are aware of situations in which leaders have decided not to interact with, or perhaps allow interaction with other Hapkido entities. When such situations arise among Hapkido leaders, other than "voting with your feet", what are the options for membership? Can members approach leadership for easements to attend other Hapkido events without jeopardizing their relationships with their own organizations? ...
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Hello Bruce:
Although I was a Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do practitioner when GM Suh still resided in Korea, I joined his WKSA (in the US) shortly after GM Pak decided to found another art that I did not want to change to. Frank discussions allowed me to continue a good relationship with GM Pak, while I joined WKSA.  

When I did join WKSA, I was handed a licence agreement that I just did not fully agree with, and I negotiated a better deal.  I suppose this was partly possible because I opened up another large area (Michigan and Canada) for GM Suh.  By bringing something to the table, he entertained my proposal, and we both profited (he in $$$$, and me in knowledge) from the agreement.

WKSA policy was, and still is, to be totally immersed into WKSA, and that is simply because of $$$.  No open tournaments, no interaction with others, and total committment to WKSA.  Well, I just had too many friends of other orgs to allow this, and I told the good GM that I was simply not willing to forsake my friends to please him (something my old student of thirty years apparently was OK with).  In fact, I believe WKSA business practices border on violating anti trust laws.

My point is that, with a little backbone, you can make the arrangement much more palatable.  This in turn makes for a better relationship for both parties.  In the case of WKSA, I brought him 16 schools in the span of two years.  At that time, I only had my own school, so all of the other schools were bonus to WKSA.  By being the regional (MI and Ca) Director, it was my mandate to do this, and I was happy to oblige.  

The relationship soured only after GM Suh broke his promises to me and ended my trust in him.  I will NOT work with anyone I cannot trust, and that caused me to focus more on my own NKMAA to continue to serve the folks I had brought into WKSA.  I felt compelled to do so, because I had led these folks up the wrong path.  I did NOT ask for any of these groups to follow me, I merely made it possible for them.  Hence, I was able to stay out of applying political pressure on them, and I continue to do that in all aspects of running NKMAA.  Folks simply use the particular things they have use for, and I do not force them to do anything that does not benefit them. 

As far as how many orgs do we need... I think it is simply a supply and demand thing just as with any other commodity.  Organizations only survive if they have something of value to offer.  With NKMAA, it is simply a matter of my willingness to teach and share, as well as making nice certificates available that have a meaning behind them because they can't be bought unless they are earned.  

In my wildest dreams, I would not have thought NKMAA would spread around the globe.  I thought I would just be of service to my regional friends, but it is quite obvious that folks around the globe were looking for alternatives.  IMHO, this is simply because of the type of nonsense we have recently witnessed with some of the major orgs representatives.  Some very good people were left to hang dry, and others just simply took off in search for alternatives.  

This type of nonsense is the very reason why so many orgs spring up and people like me survive and even grow.  I teach something people apparently enjoy, I do this at a reasonable cost, I deliver in a timely manner, and I do not sell out to just anyone who comes along with a few bucks.  In comparison, I hear (almost on a daily basis) horror stories of people who pay for certificates they never get, skills are not an issue as long as they have the $$$, the time it takes to get things is beyond reason, and the cost is in many cases prohibitive.


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## kwanjang (Aug 14, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> OK, how about this, why not start to show our leadership as a group ON THIS BOARD by say becoming supporting members - looks like is costs $12 a year - that is CHEAP for a board of this quality.  I really post nowhere else now and I would say supporting this Board might be a very positive step...
> 
> ...



Hello Kevin:
I am willing to support any worthwhile endeavor that might help Korean martial arts.  Communication is vital to doing this, and I put my money where my mouth is... so let me know what I can do.


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## Chris from CT (Sep 1, 2004)

masterswife said:
			
		

> Hi:
> Just stopping by...
> 
> Take Care,
> ...




Hey Joannie.
Welcome aboard!


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