# Are rigidly choreographed forms counter-productive in FMA



## geezer (Oct 7, 2010)

A friend of mine who runs a commercial kung fu school is introducing some FMA into his youth program and asked me to help him come up with a few Eskrima forms appropriate for kids. I told him I would, as long as the "forms" we devised would be base on authentic technique that would provide a foundation for good FMA "down the road". 

Here's the problem. The FMA I've learned _doesn't_ use rigidly choreographed "anyos" or forms. At times we would work through practice routines, but we were constantly changing them. My old instructor would give us a series of attacks and defenses, then say things like, "Let's do it slow working on _flow..._ Good, now do it again _fast!_ ...OK, try medium speed, but maximize your _power.... _Try again and add two more follow-up strikes... Now the same, but with empty hands... Now with _attitude,_ and add a kick..."

Well you get the idea. They weren't rigid forms as much as a variable training framework... almost like shadow boxing built around some specific combinations. My instructor felt that since combat situations are constantly changing, you shouldn't train in an overly rigid, choreographed way. Now, I find myself choreographing "kata" style forms that are a precise sequence of moves against visualized attacks, with exact steps, done following a pattern with a fixed start and finish point and so on... and I find myself thinking that maybe this isn't such a good thing. Drills are one thing, but following a pattern like this? In reality, your footwork and movements need to adapt to your opponent. How deeply you step in, whether to off-line or stay rooted/de fondo, and so on all has to depend on how your opponent moves. The same goes for your striking targets. So I find myself wondering... is any of this areally a good idea? Or am I just worrying too much. I mean this is for a kids class after all. Any thoughts?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2010)

I think the root of the problem lies in your friend asking you to do this in the first place.  If he wants his students to have some FMA training, then he ought to get a qualified and skilled instructor (perhaps yourself) to give real classes.  Asking you to come up with some cheap stuff to fill the gap so he can "teach some FMA" to his students is being dishonest, in my opinion.  WHat does he want it for?  Marketing?  So he can add another style's name on his sign and attract more customers thru deception?


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## geezer (Oct 7, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I think the root of the problem lies in your friend asking you to do this in the first place. If he wants his students to have some FMA training, then he ought to get a qualified and skilled instructor (perhaps yourself) to give real classes. Asking you to come up with some cheap stuff to fill the gap so he can "teach some FMA" to his students is being dishonest, in my opinion. WHat does he want it for? Marketing? So he can add another style's name on his sign and attract more customers thru deception?


 
You know, _this_ is the real core of the question. My friend lives in another state and I see him several times a year to train under him. He is an excellent kung-fu practitioner, but one who has chosen to make a living running a couple of commercial schools ...with all that that entails. I fear that, although he takes his kung-fu with great seriousness and deep dedication, he may be looking at the FMA and "just some fluff to make some money". I haven't asked him directly about that, _but now I'm thinking that I should_. FMA is too important to me to throw out there like so much cheap garbage.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2010)

bingo.

if you do this, you better be getting paid some big cash for it. because you are selling out. if you chose to sell out, make sure the financial rewards are worth it, because you still gotta look yourself in the face in the mirror.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2010)

another option could be that you actually teach him some FMA, since you are already studying kung fu under him. If he actually learns the stuff in a meaningful way, then maybe he can legitimately offer some instructions in basic FMA drills and concepts and techniques, if it fits appropriately within his main curriculum. He may even decide that it doesn't properly fit within the curriculum, and drop the project.

But I'd make sure he has a good understanding of the material first, so he's teaching it with proper depth and context. I would not create some material just for him to throw into the mix haphazardly.

Of course this raises the question of, how long does he need to be your student, before he can effectively do this and do it justice?  People don't often want to consider that, when they are already teaching something.  They think they can just pick and choose and take things from here and there and mix it in.  If he doesn't put in the effort to really learn, it's not going to be any better.


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## geezer (Oct 7, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> bingo.
> 
> if you do this, you better be getting paid some *big cash* for it. because you are selling out. if you chose to sell out, make sure the financial rewards are worth it, because you still gotta look yourself in the face in the mirror.


 
*"Big Cash!"* Dang, there's an idea. I'd sell out in a minute... for _big cash_. I've taught MA on and off for years... usually in a park or garage and never made made diddly-squat. Well, when the going was good back in the 80's, maybe I made enough to break even, you know -- to pay for my own instruction. So, I'd really like to see some _big cash 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_ but seriously, that ain't gonna happen. As much as I wish I did, I just don't have a _capitalistic soul._ ...Hey, is that an oxymoron or what?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2010)

geezer said:


> *"Big Cash!"* Dang, there's an idea. I'd sell out in a minute... for _big cash_. I've taught MA on and off for years... usually in a park or garage and never made made diddly-squat. Well, when the going was good back in the 80's, maybe I made enough to break even, you know -- to pay for my own instruction. So, I'd really like to see some _big cash
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
yeah, it doesn't exist.  dare to dream, tho.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 8, 2010)

geezer said:


> *"Big Cash!"* Dang, there's an idea. I'd sell out in a minute... for _big cash_. I've taught MA on and off for years... usually in a park or garage and never made made diddly-squat. Well, when the going was good back in the 80's, maybe I made enough to break even, you know -- to pay for my own instruction. So, I'd really like to see some _big cash
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Here is the question to ask, what is big cash? 4 digits? 5 digits?

Because there is a big difference between $10.00 and $100.00.   Yes I count the pennies. Things are tough here in the City of the Future. The problem is that no one wanted Flint to be the city of the future nor for it the be this kind of future. 




As to the initial question, I think if you do anything it should be from your teachings. If it is smooth and flowing then make it so. Do not force a single technique from FMA into hard style format. 

Given that the school is Kung Fu you might find it much easier for the flowing techniques. 


What ever you do good luck!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 8, 2010)

Lots of good advice above!


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## Guro Harold (Oct 9, 2010)

I think that teaching Carenza ("Shadow Boxing") is a great way of facilitating this challenge, especially since is something you already know, but now you have to take it to a higher level by breaking it down to be able to teach newbies the introductory steps.

This is nothing new to dance and music teachers who can improv but also have to teach beginning students how to do basics as well. They do so by drilling the ABCs of a system and then helping their students to develop into dynamic performers of the arts.

Most FMAs have a set of Abcedarios which can be used as well for the same purpose.

Also it seems that one of the main set of techniques that are used in Carenza; forms like Modern Arnis' Anyo Isa and Anyo Dalawa; PT's 64 and The Laros, for example, include some strikes of Cinco Terros with Sumbrada.

Cinco Terros can be done contiguously at 45 degree turns like the Largos and Anyo Dalawa as well. But I would forgo the poke though for a while.

So that could be a good starting point.

Take care,

-Harold


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## tmpierce (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't think it's selling out neccessarily. Especially not when you say 'youth program'. 

My understanding is that the anyos I've done were actually created under pretty similar circumstances. People wanted forms for kids and belt tests so forms were made. 

I don't actually think forms are bad for kids or people without an athletic or MA background. These people simply need to get comfortable moving before they can really learn FMA.

What you're first post described sounds like good training. Maybe just develop some of those sets for you friend? Sure, if you aren't around you won't be able to tweak and play with them but it sounds like it would be, if not top notch, at least decent training.


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## RobS (Oct 24, 2010)

I don't have a problem with sharing knowledge with people who are keen to learn, and teaching some basic drills gets them interested and means that when you want to start teaching the cool stuff they already have the foundation (drilled into them by someone else!).

The type of kali I've learned has some amerra drills for long range and sumbrada (3 and 5 count) for medium range and obviously hubud for short range.


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## RobS (Oct 24, 2010)

And there's always the basic sinawali; heaven, earth, standard, upwards, inside redondo, with roof block etc


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