# Cho Dan Bo vs. 1st Dan/poom pro's & con's



## IcemanSK (Feb 19, 2011)

I hope I've got the term correct. Cho Dan Bo= pre-BB type of rank. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

In the past, my GM has had folks test for BB & get a plain BB. Then for 6 months, they learn 2 more poomsae, then test again to "confirm" their BB rank. The fee for the test is only once. So, there is no monetary soaking of the student. At the confirmation they are given certs & an embroidered belt. The idea behind this is to retain the student past BB. Whether it works as intended is debateable.

My GM is open to either continuing this; or if instructors want to do one test, that id okay as well. So, it's up to individual instructors what they do. I'm trying to weigh out the pro's & con's of each way. I've got at least a year to 18 months before it's a pressing issue.

What do you think? Test them once, or test them twice? One test says "a BB is a BB." Two tests is a retention tool to keep them motivated to learn more & grow past BB. 

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't see how it would really affect retention. A person who wants to learn, will learn. If a BB is just part of the 'bucket list' then they'll go find a McDojo and get one quickly.
Our school does have the Cho Dan Bo rank (which means 1st degree candidate). We see it as a transition period from student (geup ranks) to teacher (dan ranks). More of a change in perspective than anything else.

I'm curious. What forms does your system use, and which forms are learned at what level?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 19, 2011)

We have a 'plain' black belt and then after a years further training and another grading 1st dan is awarded. We call the plain black belt cho dan bo. I have always thought this to be a poor marketing strategy, because we get quite a few students who get the plain black belt and think that now they've got a black belt its time to start a new craze and probably go and take up scuba diving or whatevers next on their 'to do' list. We dont give them any form of certification at black belt as no dan certificate is given out until 1st dan. Ive always felt that if we replaced the plain black belt with a brown belt, then students would stick around for another year and it would increase the chances of them sticking around long term.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> We have a 'plain' black belt and then after a years further training and another grading 1st dan is awarded. We call the plain black belt cho dan bo. I have always thought this to be a poor marketing strategy, because we get quite a few students who get the plain black belt and think that now they've got a black belt its time to start a new craze and probably go and take up scuba diving or whatevers next on their 'to do' list. We dont give them any form of certification at black belt as no dan certificate is given out until 1st dan. Ive always felt that if we replaced the plain black belt with a brown belt, then students would stick around for another year and it would increase the chances of them sticking around long term.


 
Hey! Scuba is one of my other passions.... People like this don't really dive. They do a 1 day resort course, do a couple supervised dives, and then they're gone. Actually being a diver takes too much time and money for them, in my experience.

Do you really care that much about those who are just there to pick up a belt of a given color? If they're not already in it for the long haul, what difference would another year make?

We use a belt that's half red and half black.


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## rlobrecht (Feb 19, 2011)

Our school does the same thing.  Plain black, and then five months later another test for your embroidered belt.  We order the embroidered belt, and they hang on the wall in the dojang until the candidate earns it.

It's definitely just a marketing/retention thing.

Rick


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## MSUTKD (Feb 19, 2011)

Cho Dan Bo is a black belt candidate. Usually it was a first gup that was almost ready for BB.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 19, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Hey! Scuba is one of my other passions.... People like this don't really dive. They do a 1 day resort course, do a couple supervised dives, and then they're gone. Actually being a diver takes too much time and money for them, in my experience.
> 
> Do you really care that much about those who are just there to pick up a belt of a given color? If they're not already in it for the long haul, what difference would another year make?
> 
> We use a belt that's half red and half black.


Over the years Ive seen many students do tkd just to get a black belt. But humans, being creatures of habit, sometimes go well beyond the black belt because once they work tkd into their schedule and it just becomes a way of life they just dont ever give it up. There was a guy who started the same time I did and he was quite open about the fact that all he cared about was getting a black belt. Years on now, and he's fallen in love with tkd and attends all the comps and black belt classes and camps etc. The longer someone does it, the better the chance they will stick around, thats why I wish they would just change the plain black belt at our club to brown, that way they get another full years training under their belt and the chances of them sticking with it probably improve. Wikipedia defines cho dan bo as "*Cho Dan Bo* is the rank directly under black belt in Korean martial arts",which just adds more confusion to the idea of a plain black belt being called c ho dan bo.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Over the years Ive seen many students do tkd just to get a black belt. But humans, being creatures of habit, sometimes go well beyond the black belt because once they work tkd into their schedule and it just becomes a way of life they just dont ever give it up. There was a guy who started the same time I did and he was quite open about the fact that all he cared about was getting a black belt. Years on now, and he's fallen in love with tkd and attends all the comps and black belt classes and camps etc. The longer someone does it, the better the chance they will stick around, thats why I wish they would just change the plain black belt at our club to brown, that way they get another full years training under their belt and the chances of them sticking with it probably improve. Wikipedia defines cho dan bo as "*Cho Dan Bo* is the rank directly under black belt in Korean martial arts",which just adds more confusion to the idea of a plain black belt being called c ho dan bo.


 
I fully understand that some people change their goals after real exposure. But do you really think that this happens during the Cho Dan Bo period? Do you think that changing your transitional belt color will cause this change? I'm doubtful. I think their goals change because they enjoyed what they have done. If they've trained for (as an example) 4 years to get that belt (be it plain black, red/black like ours, or brown) do you think their attitudes and goals are going to change during the Cho Dan Bo period? Did this fellow you mention suddenly change his mind, or do you think it was a gradual change, as his training progressed?

I'm neither for nor against the rank of Cho Dan Bo. It's just another step along a long path. I just have a difficult time buying the idea that this additional step is going to make any significant difference in the recipients goals.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 19, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> I fully understand that some people change their goals after real exposure. But do you really think that this happens during the Cho Dan Bo period? Do you think that changing your transitional belt color will cause this change? I'm doubtful. I think their goals change because they enjoyed what they have done. If they've trained for (as an example) 4 years to get that belt (be it plain black, red/black like ours, or brown) do you think their attitudes and goals are going to change during the Cho Dan Bo period? Did this fellow you mention suddenly change his mind, or do you think it was a gradual change, as his training progressed?
> 
> I'm neither for nor against the rank of Cho Dan Bo. It's just another step along a long path. I just have a difficult time buying the idea that this additional step is going to make any significant difference in the recipients goals.


I really dont know for sure if it means they would stay any longer. I have just noticed that the longer someone does martiala arts the higher the chance of them sticking around. For instance, Ive noticed that most students who make it to blue belt at our club end up getting to black. Ive also noticed that most student who get to 2nd dan end up getting to 4th dan. There seems to be a pattern that the longer someone keeps training the better the chances they will stick with it. I find the 'drop out' rate decreases as you go up through the ranks, so I just figured that by keeping them in the system that little bit longer that it may increase their chances of staying. I could be wrong, Im certainly no marketing expert.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Cho Dan Bo is a black belt candidate. Usually it was a first gup that was almost ready for BB.



Do you see it as a good, bad or indifferent thing when not used as 1st gup, but on it's own?


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## puunui (Feb 20, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> What do you think? Test them once, or test them twice? One test says "a BB is a BB." Two tests is a retention tool to keep them motivated to learn more & grow past BB.




Test them once and give them their belt and certificate after they past that one test, without delay.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 20, 2011)

Just a question. What is the average time from white belt to 1st dan in kukki schools in the US? I know it would probably vary but what is considered normal?


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I really dont know for sure if it means they would stay any longer. I have just noticed that the longer someone does martiala arts the higher the chance of them sticking around. For instance, Ive noticed that most students who make it to blue belt at our club end up getting to black. Ive also noticed that most student who get to 2nd dan end up getting to 4th dan. There seems to be a pattern that the longer someone keeps training the better the chances they will stick with it. I find the 'drop out' rate decreases as you go up through the ranks, so I just figured that by keeping them in the system that little bit longer that it may increase their chances of staying. I could be wrong, Im certainly no marketing expert.


 
I think it's a cause and effect issue. 
From what you write, you seem to think that adding more belt ranks keeps them in longer, and thus they eventually attain higher rank. 
I think it's more the other way around. People who want to learn will stay no matter how many belt ranks there are, because it's the training that's important.

I honestly don't know which is correct. I suspect that it's some of each.

Personally, I don't mind if those who are in it for the belt go away. I love to train, and I love to train with other people who are there for the same reason.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 20, 2011)

As someone who's about to test for 1st gup, I don't really have standing in this discussion, but based on observation and life experience I don't think having a second test matters as much as the attitude of the student and how the master leads.

There will always be some students who see earning a black belt as the end of their journey rather than a recognition that one has built a foundation for deeper studies. Although I think those people will leave either way, I do think the master and higher black belts need to teach that there are many further gains and lessons to be learned after earning first dan. Do your beginning black belts see the difference between where their skills are and the higher dans', or do they just think that the higher dans know more forms and have teaching responsibilities?


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## jthomas1600 (Feb 20, 2011)

The school I go to has 12 belts before black with the highest two being bo dan and super bo dan. I assume this is the same sort of thing ya'll are talking about. Why we call them bo dan and not dan bo, I have no idea. My son and daughter are closing in on this stage of their journey actually. In our school you can get to bo dan in about 2.5 years, but then it takes 6-12 months to cover the two bo dan belts. My impression (from simple observation) is that it doesn't have much to do with retention. As I understand it you basically know all the techniques that are required to advance to black after you complete your high brown curriculum and the time spent at bo dan is a distilling, solidifying, maturing period.


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## MSUTKD (Feb 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> Test them once and give them their belt and certificate after they past that one test, without delay.



Absolutely! Recommended Dan, wait six months, write a paper; all unneeded actions. When my students take the black belt test, about two hours long at the most, they get their belt when they pass. 

I call all first gups, cho dan bo, because they are.


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## msmitht (Feb 20, 2011)

So you make them train 6 months longer and re test? No extra test fee is nice but you are getting 6 more months of tuition, correct? Do you make them sign up for another year before the (re)test as well? Some schools make adults wear a poom belt too, lol.
If they pass the test then they are a first poom/dan, period. If you want better retention then be a better teacher or hire one. All students will quit at some point. Life can get in the way. If they quit out of boredom then that is your fault. 
No offense intended, just generalizing.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 20, 2011)

msmitht said:


> So you make them train 6 months longer and re test? No extra test fee is nice but you are getting 6 more months of tuition, correct? Do you make them sign up for another year before the (re)test as well? Some schools make adults wear a poom belt too, lol.
> If they pass the test then they are a first poom/dan, period. If you want better retention then be a better teacher or hire one. All students will quit at some point. Life can get in the way. If they quit out of boredom then that is your fault.
> No offense intended, just generalizing.



I don't have contracts for class (but I do sell them a year contract for hot chocolate I have Bentley payments to make, ya know.


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## msmitht (Feb 20, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> I don't have contracts for class (but I do sell them a year contract for hot chocolate I have Bentley payments to make, ya know.



Rotflol! I forgot about the bently.lol.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 20, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> As someone who's about to test for 1st gup, I don't really have standing in this discussion, but based on observation and life experience I don't think having a second test matters as much as the attitude of the student and how the master leads.
> 
> There will always be some students who see earning a black belt as the end of their journey rather than a recognition that one has built a foundation for deeper studies. Although I think those people will leave either way, I do think the master and higher black belts need to teach that there are many further gains and lessons to be learned after earning first dan. Do your beginning black belts see the difference between where their skills are and the higher dans', or do they just think that the higher dans know more forms and have teaching responsibilities?


I have learnt (only recently), that rank is more an indication of 'time in grade' rather than an indication of someone skills. Like with any physical activity, some people are just 'naturals' and others will always struggle. Some people are just natural 'fighters' and some people just have incredible co ordination, and these people will always excel well beyond what a stripe on their belt may indicate. Actually, one of the guys I fear most at sparring in my club is only a 1st dan, his kicks are just so fast, his footwork is amazing and he can just read his opponent like a book, basically he is just to tkd what tiger woods is to golf, he was always going to be good. His forms, self defence, timber breaks etc are also excellent. But he, like everyone else, must wait the set amount of time before he can grade for 2nd dan, and rightly so because he hasnt got the years of experience behind him. Basically, I take someone's rank with a grain of salt, Id rather see what they can do rather than evaluate them by the number of stripes on their belt.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Absolutely! Recommended Dan, wait six months, write a paper; all unneeded actions. When my students take the black belt test, about two hours long at the most, they get their belt when they pass.
> 
> I call all first gups, cho dan bo, because they are.


I agree with this. This is why I would prefer my club just swap the "plain" black belt for a brown belt and then they go straight to 1st dan. To me, you are either a black belt or you're not, the concept of probationary black belts etc just dont make any sense to me.


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## puunui (Feb 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> When my students take the black belt test, about two hours long at the most, they get their belt when they pass.



That's another issue isn't it, the 1st dan test that lasts days.... Personally, I don't believe in that.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 21, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> What do you think? Test them once, or test them twice? One test says "a BB is a BB." Two tests is a retention tool to keep them motivated to learn more & grow past BB.



I feel a cho-dan-bo is an unnecessary step.  In the our club we have a 6 month gap between 1st Kup and 1st Dan.  Grade really isn't important to most of our students, but we do ensure that everyone knows there is more stuff to learn past 1st Dan.

I'd say just grade to 1st Dan, make sure they know there's more advanced stuff to learn past 1st Dan (and that it's not a completion of the syllabus) and then if they want to leave, that's their prerogative.

At the end of the day, if all you're doing with the cho-dan-bo is keeping them hooked until 1st Dan, if they want to they'll still leave after it.  If you're using it as a marketing period to show them that there's more to come, then just do that at 2nd/1st Kup.

I don't personally feel that cho-dan-bo is necessary except for a way of "guaranteeing" income for an extra few months, something that Taekwondo isn't about to me.


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## chodanbo (Aug 28, 2021)

IcemanSK said:


> I hope I've got the term correct. Cho Dan Bo= pre-BB type of rank. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
> 
> In the past, my GM has had folks test for BB & get a plain BB. Then for 6 months, they learn 2 more poomsae, then test again to "confirm" their BB rank. The fee for the test is only once. So, there is no monetary soaking of the student. At the confirmation they are given certs & an embroidered belt. The idea behind this is to retain the student past BB. Whether it works as intended is debateable.
> 
> ...


The school I go to charge for cho dan bo testing and charge again for 1st dan but I can't even go work toward my 1st dan because there are a lot of fees, I feel it's ridiculous.  Not sure if I will continue after I test for cho dan bo.  They consider cho dan bo a black belt but not 1st degree...


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## chodanbo (Aug 28, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I feel a cho-dan-bo is an unnecessary step.  In the our club we have a 6 month gap between 1st Kup and 1st Dan.  Grade really isn't important to most of our students, but we do ensure that everyone knows there is more stuff to learn past 1st Dan.
> 
> I'd say just grade to 1st Dan, make sure they know there's more advanced stuff to learn past 1st Dan (and that it's not a completion of the syllabus) and then if they want to leave, that's their prerogative.
> 
> ...


THe school I go to test for cho dan bo and test for 1st degree separate and there are fees for each time you test.  Is this a ripoff?


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## andyjeffries (Aug 29, 2021)

chodanbo said:


> THe school I go to test for cho dan bo and test for 1st degree separate and there are fees for each time you test.  Is this a ripoff?


I don't know about ripoff, but I just wouldn't implement it at my dojang. The Kukkiwon doesn't ever talk about Chodan-bo, so I wouldn't do it.


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## MadMartigan (Aug 29, 2021)

chodanbo said:


> THe school I go to test for cho dan bo and test for 1st degree separate and there are fees for each time you test. Is this a ripoff


My question would be this. 

What is being tested on each of these exams? 

If the Cho Dan Bo (a term I'd never heard of before today) tests 'x' set of skills; and the 1st Dan tests 'y' skill set... then I don't see a problem. 

If it's the same curriculum and test twice... then yes, I'd say she likes you for your wallet not your personality.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 29, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> If the Cho Dan Bo (a term I'd never heard of before today) tests 'x' set of skills; and the 1st Dan tests 'y' skill set... then I don't see a problem.


Some things in Korean do not translate well to English. Cho Dan Bo translates as 'half a black belt' but the concept is more 'black belt candidate'.


MadMartigan said:


> If it's the same curriculum and test twice... then yes, I'd say she likes you for your wallet not your personality.


We always used Cho Dan Bo, and in a non-commercial school. So no, it wasn't about your wallet.
Our tests for Cho Dan Bo test the same material as 1st Dan. But the 1st Dan test is held to a higher standard. Additionally, because 1st Dan is considered a teaching rank in our MDK system, the Cho Dan Bo to 1st Dan period is used to help the student learn more about how to take on the role of instructor.


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## chodanbo (Aug 29, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I don't know about ripoff, but I just wouldn't implement it at my dojang. The Kukkiwon doesn't ever talk about Chodan-bo, so I wouldn't do it.


Thinking about it now, the school markets a black belt program which they call cho dan bo.  Essentially its really not a black belt until you reach 1st dan but they give you a regular black belt.  After my cho dan bo, they want me to sign up for their black belt program...


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