# Siu Nim Tao - Correcting Symmetry?



## Marnetmar (Nov 1, 2013)

Even though I have been taking Wing Chun classes for nine months now, I'm still having trouble with SNT. When in goat stance, I tend to favor one side instead of remaining square, and my hands are not symmetrical at all in the arm-crossing introduction as my right hand is much higher than my left so that my arms look something like this instead of a proper "X".

I have been trying to correct this and nothing seems to be working, any suggestions?


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## J W (Nov 1, 2013)

Tough issue to address without seeing you actually perform SNT. Of course, my first answer would be to ask your sihing or sifu about it, have them watch you play the form and hopefully they can advise. 

To take a stab at it, though, I would suggest you pay more attention to the centerline. Notice that the lines in your example intersect way to the right of the vertical centerline; they should intersect on it. If your arms cross on the centerline, then they should be more symmetrical. SNT is all about centerline; pay attention to it while playing the form and if you feel asymmetrical, you may not be on the centerline.


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## Marnetmar (Nov 1, 2013)

Thank you for the advice! I'll actually post a private youtube video later today to show MT what I'm talking about. The entire form overall just looks really wonky, actually. I do have short achilles tendons that partially contribute to some weirdness but I'm working on fixing that and I seem to be relatively successful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2013)

Marnetmar said:


> Even though I have been taking Wing Chun classes for nine months now, I'm still having trouble with SNT. When in goat stance, I tend to favor one side instead of remaining square, and my hands are not symmetrical at all in the arm-crossing introduction as my right hand is much higher than my left so that my arms look something like this instead of a proper "X".
> 
> I have been trying to correct this and nothing seems to be working, any suggestions?


When you make love to your girl, do you prefer to be on her right side or on her left side? We all have a prefer side. A Judo guy may be able to do a right side hip throw with 70% confidence but only with 40% confidence on his left side. Trying to make both sides equal is not only difficult, it's almost impossible IMO.


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## VT_Vectis (Nov 2, 2013)

I usually practice snt in front of a 3/4 length mirror and slow each movement down to a crawl to try and get it as central as possible, also concentrating on position of elbows. If your elbows are parallel then the 'x' should also be so. In regards to the goat gripping stance; are you sat in your stance low enough, with **** clenched and pelvis extended forward? If so the weight equaity should resolve itself. 

Hope this helps.


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## Takai (Nov 2, 2013)

Marnetmar said:


> I have been trying to correct this and nothing seems to be working, any suggestions?



Time. At 9 months you should be just grasping the basic mechanics. "Equalizing" will come with a refinement that only comes from practice. 

Like everyone else I recommend talking to you Sifu and Sihing and go slow (speed can hide flaws you wouldn't otherwise see). Also don't try to correct the whole form at once. Just work on one section at a time. When you get all the way through working on the sections go back again and again, etc. The pressure especially in the beginning is to get it perfect right away (nine months is still right away) most likely you won't. Don't stress about that instead enjoy the lessons that you are learning as you make corrections.

In other words, don't forget to enjoy the journey.


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## geezer (Nov 2, 2013)

In spite of what _Kung Fu Wang_ says, symmetry in SNT is _important_. If your arms are as asymmetrical as the lines are on the graph you provided,  then you have something seriously out of whack with your structure. Unless you have some kind of injury that throws your entire body out of alignment, achieving symmetry when doing the crossed tan-sau and crossed gaun sau should be fairly natural and easy. In fact one reason we do those cross-arm movements is to help us locate our bridges along our centerline and define our vertical mid-line. At least it is so in the lineage I train. So symmetry is important. Talk to your sifu and he should be able to diagnose your structural error.


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## Danny T (Nov 4, 2013)

Talk with your Sifu, he should be able to address your concern is some fashion. 
Otherwise I suggest you take note as to where your wrists cross. The point of them crossing at the low point and again at the high point is to define your centerline, lower, mid, and upper gates and symmetry is extremely important. I also suggest you spend several sets of just performing the movement to these positions going slowly and correcting the final positions before moving to the next movement/position. Time spent making the movement to the position properly will provide many rewards later as you will return to these often within your training and applications.


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## Marnetmar (Nov 11, 2013)

Hello all, thanks a ton for the advice you've given so far. I have talked to my Sifu and he has explained a few useful things. However, I still would like to get more opinions (if we don't learn from each other, who will we learn from?) so I've finally gotten around to uploading that video of me doing SNT that you can see my symmetry problem in as well as a few other things:






Please note that I realize I shouldn't have had a jacket on and I apologize for the camera being out of focus as I was very short on time when I recorded this. Hope to receive some more advice!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 11, 2013)

Marnetmar said:


> I still would like to get more opinions ...


Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training". After you have learned the form, record it on DVD and use it as a "book". You should train "drills" and you should not train form.

Trying to memorize Shakespeare's play from the 1st word to the last work won't make you a play writer. Knowing when and how to use "to be and not to be" is more important.


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## geezer (Nov 11, 2013)

I see the asymmetry in the opening "crossed gaun-sau" movement. It's really tough to look at a blurry video and see what's going on in your structure to make that happen. Especially, as you noted, with that bulky jacket on. It's also hard to comment on the rest of the form since each lineage does it so differently. You really need to get your sifu to help you. I wouldn't attempt it, as the SNT I do is quite different ...even though both yours and mine appear to be Yip Man lineage.

Just for the record, I grabbed this off youtube. I don't know who this guy is, but he does SNT the way I learned it and teach it, although his movements seems a bit hurried and tense. That might just be because he's doing it in front of the camera, though.


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## geezer (Nov 11, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Form is for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not for "training". After you have learned the form, record it on DVD and use it as a "book". You should train "drills" and you should not train form.
> Trying to memorize Shakespeare's play from the 1st word to the last work won't make you a play writer. Knowing when and how to use "to be and not to be" is more important.



I would not put a form an a DVD and just set it aside like a reference book! Repeating forms regularly has a beneficial effect, helping to instill correct positions and structures into your muscle memory and helping to weed out bad habits. This is old wisdom.


Form, drills, chi-sau, and free sparring are the four pillars of WT/VT training. Each plays an essential role. It has been said that SNT is like learning the _alphabet_ of our system. You must recite the alphabet a many times to learn it well before you learn to read and write. But, like you said, beyond a certain point no amount of reciting the alphabet will produce great writing.


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## Takai (Nov 11, 2013)

geezer said:


> I would not put a form an a DVD and just set it aside like a reference book! Repeating forms regularly has a beneficial effect, helping to instill correct positions and structures into your muscle memory and helping to weed out bad habits. This is old wisdom.
> 
> 
> Form, drills, chi-sau, and free sparring are the four pillars of WT/VT training. Each plays an essential role. It has been said that SNT is like learning the _alphabet_ of our system. You must recite the alphabet a many times to learn it well before you learn to read and write. But, like you said, beyond a certain point no amount of reciting the alphabet will produce great writing.



I would have to agree with that. Neglecting forms (or any other aspect of training) is a really bad habit to get into. It will definitely have adverse effects on your training. Any time that you "get something" and then stop practicing it you end up losing it. Practice doe not make perfect only perfect practice makes perfect.


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## Danny T (Nov 11, 2013)

Marnetmar,
Though out of focus it appears your upper body is just slightly leaning to the right and your head is tilted off center to the left also. Your left arm appears to be somewhat more straight vs the right thereby causing the arms to not be symmetrical. Try holding your arms in a Low Lan Sao position with your finger tips even with the elbow (make certain the finger tips Do Not extend past the elbows) maintaining your elbow exactly where they are in space move your hands to the Gaun Sao position (do not move the elbow from their positions in space) your arms should be symmetrical at that point. (stand in front of a mirror and being honest with yourself at your body alignment, head, neck, torso should all be in a straight alignment. You are aware your arms arms are not symmetrical stop after moving to position and correct the alignment. Repeat the movement and correct as needed before going to the next movement or position. Repeat as many times it takes to perform the movement to position 'correctly'.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 11, 2013)

geezer said:


> Repeating forms regularly has a beneficial effect,


Unless a form (assume it contains 50 moves) contains a long combo sequence that the

- 1st move is used to set up the 2nd move, 
- 2nd move is use to set up the 3rd move, 
- ...
- 49th move is used to set up the 50th move.

which I don't think such single combo sequence form exists on this planet. All MA form contains a set of combos. Since the 1st combo may not have any logical connection to the next combo, if you repeat the 

- 1st combo 100 times, 
- 2nd combo 100 times,
- ...,

 the end result is no different from training your form from the 1st move to the last move 100 times. Those combo sequence is what I would call "drill". Why should we train "drill' and not "form"? Because a combo drill is a logical sequence and the form is not.

If you don't know how to break your form into combos, you may not understand your form well enough. Until the day that you know how to break your form into combos,  that form is still belong to your teacher and you haven't owned it yet.

Here is a simple example. Assume your form has 2 sentence, 

- This is a book. 
- What do I do with a book? 

Should a beginner repeat "this is a book" 100 times followed by repeating "What do I do with a book?" 100 times? Or should he repeat "This is a book. What do I do with a book" 100 times? Which learning method is better? 

Should a beginner also repeat (now he truly own these sentences):

- This is my book.
- This is not a book.
- This is a pen.
- ...
- What do I do with my book?
- what do I do with your book?
- What do I do with my pen?
- ...

Is this more logical way of learning than just repeating "This is a book. What do I do with a book" when you are 6 years old. One day when you are 80 years old, you still repeat, "This is a book. What do I do with a book?"?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 11, 2013)

geezer said:


> Repeating forms regularly has a beneficial effect, ...



If "This is a book" is my form, After I have learned it, I will expand it to

- This is a pen.
- This is not my book.
- That is a book.
- That is not my pen.
- This was a pillow.
- ...

Now I have truly owned the form "This is a book" and I can tell others that I understand my form. "This is a book" is just the starting point. What, where, and how I can expand it will be what I'm truly looking for.


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## mograph (Nov 18, 2013)

Marnetmar, have you tried practicing in front of a full-length mirror with a _(plumb)_ strip of narrow tape down the center?


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## mograph (Nov 18, 2013)

geezer said:


> Repeating forms regularly has a beneficial effect ...


I see nothing wrong with this statement. I assume that Geezer does not mean "repeating forms _exclusively_."

If I recall, the quote goes _"The river I step in is not the river I stand in." _Any practice of any art is like this: if we practice with intention, attention and sensitivity, each repetition is slightly different from the last, and we can learn from this. No?


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## J W (Nov 19, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All MA form contains a set of combos.



I disagree with this assessment of Siu Nim Tao. I don't believe it is simply a set of techniques or combos. It's the basic method of training centerline, structure, relaxation, energy, stance, rooting, etc etc. 

It should be trained often, in addition to drills and other training methods.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2013)

J W said:


> I disagree with this assessment of Siu Nim Tao. I don't believe it is simply a set of techniques or combos. It's the basic method of training centerline, structure, relaxation, energy, stance, rooting, etc etc.
> 
> It should be trained often, in addition to drills and other training methods.



The following 3 sequences (drills) in the Siu Nim Tao from all start from the same posture and end with the same posture with both hand next to the chest. In the form, the order is A, B, C. 

Drill A: 



Drill B: 



Drill C: 





If you train 

- drill A 4 time (as repeated in those clips),
- drill B 4 time,
- drill C 4 time,

or if you train your Siu Nim Tao from 4 times (of course the form contains more than 3 drills), or instead of following the A,B,C order, if you train your form in the order of

- ACB,
- BAC,
- BCA,
- CAB,
- CBA,

or in each drills, instead of moving your right hand first, if you move your left hand first,

- Will you get exactly the same training result for your centerline, structure, relaxation, energy, stance, rooting, etc etc? 
- Is there any reason that you have to follow the original order?
- If you break your Siu Nim Tao form apart, re-arrange the sequences, do you think you will understand the Siu Nim Tao form better afterward?

IMO, the original form creator doesn't care whether you break it apart, or re-arrange the sequences. After you have learned it, it's your form and you should have freedom to do whatever that you want to.


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## geezer (Nov 19, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Will you get exactly the same training result for your centerline, structure, relaxation, energy, stance, rooting, etc etc?
> - Is there any reason that you have to follow the original order?
> - If you break your Siu Nim Tao form apart, re-arrange the sequences, do you think you will understand the Siu Nim Tao form better afterward?
> 
> IMO, the original form creator doesn't care whether you break it apart, or re-arrange the sequences. After you have learned it, it's your form and you should have freedom to do whatever that you want to.



Sure, often the best way to train any of the forms is to take a small section and drill it over and over. Then you can work two-man drills based on those movements, and finally apply them appropriately in random contexts such as chi-sau and sparring.

On the other hand, the order of the movements in the form is not random at all. Many sequences are arranged quite logically. And I doubt whether a student would grasp the underlying concepts any faster by simply scrambling the order.


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## Eric_H (Nov 21, 2013)

Marnetmar said:


> Hello all, thanks a ton for the advice you've given so far. I have talked to my Sifu and he has explained a few useful things. However, I still would like to get more opinions (if we don't learn from each other, who will we learn from?) so I've finally gotten around to uploading that video of me doing SNT that you can see my symmetry problem in as well as a few other things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The hell lineage is this? I don't even recongize that opening as WC!


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2013)

Marnetmar

I am not a Wing Chun guy, although I have dabbled in it and I apologize if this has already been mentioned but I noticed something as it applies to symmetry, of course it could be the camera angle too.

  From my perspective when you get into your stance your right leg does not go as far off center as your left. From your perspective it would be your left leg does not go as far from center as your right. 


  Your right foot>>>>>>>Center<<<<<Your left foot


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## TaiChiTJ (Nov 27, 2013)

Marnetmar, about opening the form, as I remember:

the feet are together
the hands rise up in fists at the sides, and they stay there.  At the same time,  the knees bend so you can open into the horse
then you move the feet out, opening the stance

the hands are still in fists as you open the stance. You are NOT simultaneously moving the arms and legs. 
I really believe most of the Yip Man lineage Wing Chun players on this forum open SNT that way. 
Here is the example Geezer gave us: 





Opening the stance while moving the arms is confusing, doing two things at once. We do not want confused kung fu! (LOL) 
Wing Chun, at the SNT level, is all about segmenting and isolating specific bodily actions, and repeating them to perfection. 
Later on things can flow into each other.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 11, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> The hell lineage is this? I don't even recongize that opening as WC!



Leung Sheung/Kenneth Chung, so some of the stuff we do does differ from the classical Yip Man lineage. The reason it doesn't look like Wing Chun is most likely because my structure was way off and I am very much a novice, rather than our method of the form itself, which is why I made this thread. (As you mentioned, in the opening we sink our weight and we fold our cross-arms inward and up, which you don't see often in Wing Chun)

My instructor learned from Eddie Chong in the early 90's, and he learned from Kenneth Chung who learned from Leung Sheung.


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## Marnetmar (Jan 7, 2014)

Hello all, little update. I'm doing better but I still look like I'm half-retarded:


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## mook jong man (Jan 7, 2014)

Not the worst I've seen , but it does need a bit of work by the looks of it.
Let's start from the ground up , allowing differences in lineage and what not.

Your stance is too wide making it almost impossible for you to kick without a rather large weight shift , it will also hamper your mobility and I dare say it is probably putting quite a bit of strain on your knee joints.

Try measuring out your stance from the starting point of having your feet together , you should then end up with the feet roughly shoulder width apart which is about where you want them.
Make sure you sink your weight down as well , so that your weight is evenly distributed over your feet , looking down and seeing your knees just over your toes is about right.

As for the movements of the form you need to go right back to the beginning and if I were you I would just work on the first section before moving on to the the others , the form is divided into three sections.

You need to slow it right down and make sure each move is completed fully before you start the next movement , practice in front of a mirror and make sure you are keeping your wrist on the centerline , stick a line of tape or something down on the mirror if you have to , but keep those wrists on the centerline.

Concentrate on initiating each movement from your elbow , and keeping your elbows tucked in when the technique requires it .
Try to also maintain your angles in your arm , particularly when raising from low to high and cutting down , there are slight variations of angle in the elbow joint in the form in certain sequences but not as wildly fluctuating as you are doing.

The Fook Sau , Wu Sau sequence should also be going out and back in a straight line your's looks like it is going up.
Also with your Huen Sau make sure you keep your hand flat all the way round as you rotate the wrist , otherwise it won't work when you want to use it to snake around someones arm to get on the inside and hit them

Don't worry too much it's not insurmountable , nothing that a bit of hard work won't fix , just means a lot of time standing in front of the mirror going through each move of the form and doing it over and over and over and over and over...............


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## Marnetmar (Jan 7, 2014)

Thank you so much, I'll be sure to take every bit of advice you've given me!


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## mook jong man (Jan 7, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Thank you so much, I'll be sure to take every bit of advice you've given me!



No worries , that's what we are here for.

Just remember though , that you should do it the way your particular lineage dictates that you should do it
But there are still some things that are probably universal across all lineages , things like keeping your elbow in , maintaining the proper angle of the arm through out the movement , and keeping the wrists on the centerline etc.

Don't worry about it , I still have to get in front of the mirror every now and again for a bit of a tune up and make sure everthing is staying on center.

You might be able to pick up a few things from this video clip , as far as my lineage goes this guy is probably right up there ,  his relaxed and precise execution of our version of SNT is excellent.

[video=youtube_share;9SDT-UvWlms]http://youtu.be/9SDT-UvWlms[/video]


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## strike101 (Feb 28, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> No worries , that's what we are here for.
> 
> Just remember though , that you should do it the way your particular lineage dictates that you should do it
> But there are still some things that are probably universal across all lineages , things like keeping your elbow in , maintaining the proper angle of the arm through out the movement , and keeping the wrists on the centerline etc.
> ...



Nice SLT video. Similar to how we perform it.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 28, 2014)

I have to agree with Geezer. SLT is the alphabet in that it teaches the centerline, the bulk of the hand techniques and develops your basic stance. The best advice is to practice in front of a mirror. There are no shortcuts, no magic bullets, no easy answers. Just practice.


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