# Changing Dojo or Teacher



## steelnshadow (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi All,

Although I am sure that this topic has been discussed before so please forgive me if its a repost.

I would like to know if there are any official procedures, any rules regarding keeping your grade or anything of the sort? Is there a 'good' way to approach a new teacher and ask him to be his student?

May is feedback on the experience that others had when changing teacher or dojo.

thank you for your time :asian:


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## bluekey88 (Feb 14, 2011)

I would say a lot depends.  If you are staying within the same organization then you should be able to keep your rank.  If you are changing organizations (going from Bujinkan to Genbukan for example) you'll porbably not be able to keep your rank.  A lot depends on the teacher you are going to and how they run things.

The rest is based on courtesy.  You should let your old teacher know you are leaving and why.  You should be honest with your new teacher about who you trained with and why you are switching as well.  If you keep your rank, then you may have to wait to get promoted until you understand the new school's system and your abiloty there matches your rank.  Again, a lot of this depends on what the new instructor wants to do.

Peace,
Erik


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## steelnshadow (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, I am remaining within the Bujinkan, just changing instructor.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 14, 2011)

Bujinkan is pretty informal from what I have seen. As long as you are respectful to your previous sensei and your new sensei I think most won't mind.

It also matters why you want to change. For example, moving to a different state is a different matter than being thrown out of the dojo because you knocked up the senseis daughter and then dumping her. Of course these are 2 extremes that most likely do not apply to you, it was just so you got my meaning.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 14, 2011)

Keep in mind that even if it is the same organization their requirements for the rank may be different. You could be overqualified or underqualified for it depending on what that teacher expects from his students at that level.


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## steelnshadow (Feb 14, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> It also matters why you want to change. For example, moving to a different state is a different matter than being thrown out of the dojo because you knocked up the senseis daughter and then dumping her. Of course these are 2 extremes that most likely do not apply to you, it was just so you got my meaning.



.. nope no banging of daughter or changing state, I just feel the need to change teacher and perspective of training. I have been with this teacher for around 10 years and I have been feeling the need to change for some time. Not sure if its normal or not.

Well thanks to all..

You were all very helpful.

Cheers 

Peter


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## Krevon (Feb 14, 2011)

steelnshadow said:


> .. nope no banging of daughter or changing state, I just feel the need to change teacher and perspective of training. I have been with this teacher for around 10 years and I have been feeling the need to change for some time. Not sure if its normal or not.
> 
> Well thanks to all..
> 
> ...



I would think hard about it before changing.  Actually define the reasons and then have a talk with your teacher.  It takes a long time to develop a good relationship so do all you can to keep it.


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2011)

Talk to your instructor.  And your prospective new instructor.

In fact, maybe find a chance to sit down with them both together...  They might have interesting insights for you.

Don't just leave without a word and go to the other guy...  It's rude.  It's disrespectful.  And it's just plain annoying.

There's nothing wrong with feeling that you need to change to a different instructor.  It's part of growth, sometimes.  Or it's what you need to appreciate who you have been training with.  But you do owe the guy you've been with for much of ten years some explanation.


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## steelnshadow (Feb 14, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Talk to your instructor.  And your prospective new instructor.
> 
> In fact, maybe find a chance to sit down with them both together...  They might have interesting insights for you.



Well I still need to find the new instructor, I have some in mind but I need to be accepted as their student.



> Don't just leave without a word and go to the other guy...  It's rude.  It's disrespectful.  And it's just plain annoying.



I totally agree...



> Or it's what you need to appreciate who you have been training with. .



I didn't think about it this way before.

thanks :asian:


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 17, 2011)

Unless your a member of Bujinkan. you would lose your grade and start from white belt again


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## steelnshadow (Feb 17, 2011)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> Unless your a member of Bujinkan. you would lose your grade and start from white belt again


 
Strange you would say that, I spoke to some ex students and they told me that they left because they were not allowed to change school. The old students said that after they left, our instructor informed them that he wrote an email to Japan removing their grades and expelling them from the Bujinkan..

He said that since he was the highest grade in the region anyone willing to train in the Bujinkan had to train under him...

Any comments?


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## bluekey88 (Feb 17, 2011)

My instructor has cahnged instructors a number of times.  He went from a Steve Hayes affiliation to Bujinakn in Texas, then chantged instructors when he moved out east.  He then changed again for reasons similar to yours (wanting a different direction in his training).  In addition, he takes every opportunity to train with a variety of folks whenever the opportunity presents itself.

So, changing inst5ructors is not a bad thing...just be open and honest about why.  don't burn bridges.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 17, 2011)

steelnshadow said:


> Strange you would say that, I spoke to some ex students and they told me that they left because they were not allowed to change school. The old students said that after they left, our instructor informed them that he wrote an email to Japan removing their grades and expelling them from the Bujinkan..
> 
> He said that since he was the highest grade in the region anyone willing to train in the Bujinkan had to train under him...
> 
> Any comments?



Yes. Some people take themselves waay too seriously. 
That has nothing to do with the Bujinkan specifically though.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 18, 2011)

Agreed. The guy has control issues. Hatsumi has never expelled anyone from the Bujinkan. He has removed the name plate of Hayes as Hayes had moved away from the Bujinkan's approach, which is not him "expelling" Hayes. Add to that the way that the Bujinkan is a two-tier hierarchy (Hatsumi, then everyone under him), it really doesn't matter what grade this guy has, no-one has to train under him. At all. They can still very easily train in the Bujinkan under any licenced Shidoshi, or if they are 5th Dan or above themselves, and have a Shidoshi licence, under their own authority. Provided grading certificates (from Japan) can be shown, a new Bujinkan dojo should have no issue in honouring a Bujinkan grade. They may or may not rank you that way themselves, but that only really has an impact on the future gradings, not the present grade.

It sounds like a power-trip bluff on the part of this "senior" instructor, with no precedent to back it up. I'd call him on it, by turning up at another school, asking to see the reply email, or just going to Japan myself. And steer clear of the guy in future, he doesn't sound like the type of person I'd want to learn anything from in any case.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 18, 2011)

steelnshadow said:


> Strange you would say that, I spoke to some ex students and they told me that they left because they were not allowed to change school. The old students said that after they left, our instructor informed them that  wrote an email to Japan removing their grades and expelling them from the Bujinkan..
> 
> He said that since he was the highest grade in the region anyone willing to train in the Bujinkan had to train under him...
> 
> Any comments?



its seems to me that Bujinkan has become to commercialised. it seems its all motivated by money. no wonder they took such drastic actions. this seems somewhat extreme just for a student leaving an organisation


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## Chris Parker (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm going to recommend reading my post above yours there.

And really, if the Bujinkan is concerned only with money, how is that served by kicking out students, and therefore not getting any more grading, training, or membership fees from them. Frankly, your statement doesn't hold water there.


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## BujinBos (Feb 18, 2011)

It's not the Bujinkan that's the problem. It is those bad apples who have fallen and rolled far from the tree.


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## jks9199 (Feb 18, 2011)

Most of the Bujinkan clubs I've looked at aren't money makers...  Most are part time "jobs" for the instructors who have a "real" job, too...  I'm not familiar with the costs of licenses and advancement, or even training at the Bujinkan Hombu... but I don't get the impression much of it is all that expensive.


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## bwindussa (Feb 18, 2011)

I agree with JKS 9199. The 2 Togakure instructors I studied under did not do it for the money. It was a passion in their lives they wanted to share. It was normally a part-time job they did after a long day's work.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 19, 2011)

yes olay itr not for money but what is all the trouble for such a small thing. perhaps the do not want the students to train in different organisation. thus forcing him to train only in Bujinkan. its like kyokushin karate and shoto karate. its a big corporation. they dont want to lose money and have to make these rules about membership. but thats my opinion on this.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 19, 2011)

No, that's not really the way it is. As I've said a number of times, with the different approaches from the different organisations, what is "right" for one is "wrong" in another. So it becomes a matter of it being less confusing for the student themselves. Another major point is that if you are learning a particular martial art from an instructor, and you then also learn the same one from another instructor, you are basically saying to the first one that you don't think they're teaching you well enough, and is really a statement about your lack of confidence in the teacher. As martial arts are all about a connection directly from the teacher to the student, what message are you sending by saying "yeah, you're good and I like you and all, but I also want this other guy to teach me, cause he does other stuff"? Basically, you've just disqualified yourself from being part of the connection.

It's to ensure that the student learns correctly, and that the teacher is afforded the respect they deserve. Kyokushin and Shotokan are different forms of karate, not just different organisations, so that analogy isn't accurate. Here we are talking about different organisations teaching the same material. This extends to us, by the way, the way I teach would be considered "wrong" by Bujinkan standards and approaches, so if you were to join a Bujinkan school, you would be told that what you had learnt was wrong. Same if you went from Bujinkan to Genbukan (my approach is closer to the Genbukan/Jinenkan approach, for the record, but there are still a number of differences there).

This really isn't to do with money, its more based in the way martial arts have been taught in the past, and continue to be done today. For that reason, there isn't a ban on cross-training in other arts, just between the organisations. It's really nothing to do with protecting memberships or their fee structure.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 19, 2011)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> yes olay itr not for money but what is all the trouble for such a small thing. perhaps the do not want the students to train in different organisation. thus forcing him to train only in Bujinkan. its like kyokushin karate and shoto karate. its a big corporation. they dont want to lose money and have to make these rules about membership. but thats my opinion on this.



I think you are wrong.
It has primarily to do with the fact that the headmaster has a specific idea about how the arts should be taught. For example Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei have radically different ideas on how to train, both believing theirs is the beter approach.

And the training methods are fairly incompatible. In order not to create problems, as well as to prevent the situation where you have responsibilities to sensei of different organization, there is the rule against training with another ninjutsu organization.

That, as well as the x kan headmasters not wanting their students to be associated with the neo ninjer groups who make themselves and the art look ridiculous.
I cannot speak for other orgs, but if Tanemura sensei was in it just for the money, he would not still be training under another sensei even today, he would not personally teach at honbu dojo 6 or 7 days per week, 3 times per day, and he would not make it take about 10 years to reach black belt with such long times between exams.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 19, 2011)

okay I get what you are saying. martial art is a passion. nothing to do with money.
I stand corrected


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## Cryozombie (Feb 19, 2011)

There are some financial obligations in the Bujinkan, don't mistake that... Rank costs, yearly membership dues to Hombu, etc... But overall most instructors I know don't do it for a living and aren't nearly as expensive as your run of the mill TKD or "Karate" school in the strip-malls.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 19, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> There are some financial obligations in the Bujinkan, don't mistake that... Rank costs, yearly membership dues to Hombu, etc... But overall most instructors I know don't do it for a living and aren't nearly as expensive as your run of the mill TKD or "Karate" school in the strip-malls.



TKD International federation is huge. most of the class is full of under ten kids in some of these places. very popular for perents to take thier kids. thinking that they will be learning to defend themselves. instead they learn how to do a double roundhouse and spin kick


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 20, 2011)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> TKD International federation is huge. most of the class is full of under ten kids in some of these places. very popular for perents to take thier kids. thinking that they will be learning to defend themselves. instead they learn how to do a double roundhouse and spin kick



Slightly off topic, but sometimes we misjudge people because they are not doing things for the same reason we do.

For example, the local TKD club which uses the same dojo is the cream of the Belgian crop. I was surprised to learn this because I sometimes see them practice, and can't help but think that I would be able to take down their black belts because they are 100% competition oriented and completely ignore the SD part of their training. So they don't do punches, keep their hands low, have no concept of grapling or close combat. If I play by my rules (which means: none) I think I could come out ahead. If I play by their rules, they'll cream my *** for sure.

If I were to only look at the surface, I could easily conclude that it is just a belt mill for making money. If I look further, I see that their club has a different focus, and I cannot make any meaningful comparison with what we do. In this case I know that what they do is very good indeed because they took away most medals in the national championships (11 fighters, 10 medals).

I've also watched their sensei (no idea how that is called in Korean) move. And while it is very different and unsuitable for what we do, I admire his skill because the man can move like a bumblebee and be stock-still within a fraction of a second and be in perfect control of his body, rooted like a tree and ready to either retreat with the same speed or kick someone 
in half.


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## steelnshadow (Feb 21, 2011)

Ok.. so what you are saying is that even if I leave I will not be expelled from the bujinkan and probably my grade (from Japan) will be accepted but the new teacher might keep me the same level until I am up to spec?


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes. The bujinkan has no standards in grading. It is up to each teacher to decide what skills go with which grade. So while your grade will be acknowledged by a new dojo, they will not promot you further until you are up to their standards regarding that grade.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 22, 2011)

yes i agree Bruno@MT. some of the stuff they do is amazing and takes alot of agility for sure. Its awesome to watch. but for sure it is made as a sport first and defence aswell but winning tornaments is probley the main focus. I bet a tkd guy can more than handle themselves on the street compared to your average joe. just because of superior balance and co-ordination.


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## Krevon (Feb 22, 2011)

To the OP how have things worked out?  Have you moved on? Did you have a sit down with your instructor?


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## steelnshadow (Feb 23, 2011)

Krevon said:


> To the OP how have things worked out?  Have you moved on? Did you have a sit down with your instructor?



I have contacted other teachers asking them if they are willing to train me as their students. I spoke to my teacher explaining that I feel the need to change and move on. Its still a work in progress...

I do not have his blessing yet but neither got any threats... I will update soon after I will inform him that I will move on.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 23, 2011)

Question: Do you want to change teachers because you feel your current teacher doesn't have much to teach you or do you not particuarly like the way he teaches?

Keep in mind that when discussing this with him he may feel a sense of batrayal or sadness especially if you have had a rather long relationship. He may feel insulted (not that this is your intent, just his perspective) at the notion that he is not good enough for you.


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## steelnshadow (Feb 24, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Question: Do you want to change teachers because you feel your current teacher doesn't have much to teach you or do you not particuarly like the way he teaches?


 
Both I guess... After all this time training with him I feel like I have absorbed his beliefs and techniques, the only way forward that I see for my training is a different teacher with a different perspective and maybe an enphasis on different methods within the Bujinkan. Others before me went this way by changing martial art, but I am too fond of ninjutsu to do anythnig else, and doing nothing is not an option for me  



Himura Kenshin said:


> Keep in mind that when discussing this with him he may feel a sense of batrayal or sadness especially if you have had a rather long relationship. He may feel insulted (not that this is your intent, just his perspective) at the notion that he is not good enough for you.


 
In asian countries the instructor eventually tells the student, 'I have nothing more to teach you.' If this doesn't happen the instructor might instead tell the student, 'Go train with this instructor or this one and then come back to me.' In my case I always heard 'keep training with me to become better', 'don't train with others because there are many posers in the world..' :uhohh: :erg: 

Don't get me wrong I am very thankful for what my instructor taught me throughout these years and for introducing me to ninjutsu, unfortunately there is this other side as well.... Hence this is the reason why I am asking if there are any procedures to change teacher officially or unofficially within the bujinkan.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't know if this has been asked or not, but how long have you been training, and how long has your teacher been training?


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## steelnshadow (Feb 24, 2011)

I have been training for something over 10 years, my teacher over 20 years.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 24, 2011)

In that case you should indeed have an idea of where you are going. Is your sensei still actively training under anoher sensei?


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## steelnshadow (Feb 24, 2011)

No not really, maybe once or twice a year, he says he periodically receives material from Japan but he hasn't been training under a teacher for years now.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 24, 2011)

If your teacher has indeed showed you everything he either knows or is willing to share then I agree it is time to find someone new.

I'd be up front about wanting a different perspective on the subject from a new instructor, if he isn't ego driven then he should be able to understand why you feel the need to move on. Just think about how you would want someone to tell you if you were his teacher.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 24, 2011)

steelnshadow said:


> No not really, maybe once or twice a year, he says he periodically receives material from Japan but he hasn't been training under a teacher for years now.



This here is the problem, in my opinion.

As long as someone actively trains, he makes progress. Without a sensei who is better than he is, your sensei cannot pull himself up anymore. If he doesn't train anymore (or without routine supervision) then his skills will start to deteriorate, and after a while he will be stuck. And as a result, you will be stuck too. If you have been training this long, there is a chance that you've met each other halfway. His skill going down and yours going up.

That is one major reason why everybody in Genbukan is expected to keep training under a higher sensei. Even Soke himself still trains under another sensei, just to keep improving himself. He says that learning martial arts is like boiling water if you are not heating it, it is cooling off.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 25, 2011)

That's awesome he still trains, what in?
That would be pretty intimdating I guess for the instructor as well I'd guess.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2011)

I believe Tanemura Sensei is currently taking instruction in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and Mugen Shinto Ryu Iaijutsu under Nagao Sensei (he originally studied Daito Ryu under Sato Kinbei Sensei). Bruno or another Genbukan member may be able to confirm that.

I believe he was also still learning from Kimura Sensei until his passing at the beginning of this century, not long after Sato Kinbei Sensei.


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## steelnshadow (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi All,

I think that my next question will let you all understand what the outcome of my discussion with my teacher was... I am currently a 3rd Dan shidoshi ho and would like to know if I can pay my Bujinkan yearly membership directly to the honbu in Japan? :mst:


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## stephen (Feb 26, 2012)

steelnshadow said:


> Strange you would say that, I spoke to some ex students and they told me that they left because they were not allowed to change school. The old students said that after they left, our instructor informed them that he wrote an email to Japan removing their grades and expelling them from the Bujinkan..
> 
> He said that since he was the highest grade in the region anyone willing to train in the Bujinkan had to train under him...
> 
> Any comments?



Few things :

Rank in the Bujinkan comes from Soke, not your instructor. You may change instructors and keep any rank you have a Hombu certificate for. It's not in anyone's power (save Soke) to take that away.

You do not *need* to get permission from anyone to train with anyone. (What's polite may vary, depending on the circumstances.)

The 'highest grade' thing is such ********, I can't even comment. Who is this guy?

Oh, and as for sending an email to Hombu to remove someone: anyone familiar with how the paper-work/office stuff in the Bujinkan works is probably wiping the coffee off their screen and commenting on how it burns the nostrils as we speak. You know, I'm sure the automated Bujinkan database would just scrape the gmail and run the appropriate queries - but, for the moment, let's just say that this is beyond silly. 

-Stephen
(Bujinkan Shidoshi)


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## stephen (Feb 26, 2012)

steelnshadow said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I think that my next question will let you all understand what the outcome of my discussion with my teacher was... I am currently a 3rd Dan shidoshi ho and would like to know if I can pay my Bujinkan yearly membership directly to the honbu in Japan? :mst:




If you are a Shidoshi-ho you can deal with Hombu directly. Do you have a Shidoshi-ho certificate? You should have received the paperwork with all of that. You can PM me if you'd like some detailed advice on how to sort this out, I can help you figure out what's what.


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## steelnshadow (Feb 27, 2012)

stephen said:


> If you are a Shidoshi-ho you can deal with Hombu directly. Do you have a Shidoshi-ho certificate? You should have received the paperwork with all of that. You can PM me if you'd like some detailed advice on how to sort this out, I can help you figure out what's what.



Hi,

Thank you for your reply, I have tried to PM you, but I am not sure if the messages are going through as they are not appearing in my sent box. I would gladly accept any help, I can get to get out of this fix.

Thanks


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## stephen (Feb 27, 2012)

steelnshadow said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your reply, I have tried to PM you, but I am not sure if the messages are going through as they are not appearing in my sent box. I would gladly accept any help, I can get to get out of this fix.
> 
> Thanks




I've received your PMs, I'll reply there.


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## steelnshadow (Jul 5, 2012)

I would like to thank everyone for their comments and support. I originally posted this thread back in 2011 not sure what my future was. Today thanks to the support of many I am continuing my training under a different teacher and I am also running my own small humble Dojo 


Should anyone be going through what I please do not hesitate to add to this post or PM me.

Thanks once again to all.

A happy ending indeed :bangahead:


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