# Certificates?  We don't need no stinking certificates!



## SmellyMonkey (Nov 15, 2004)

All the talk on this forum about the shortcomings of the many various hapkido federations has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Next year my wife and I will be testing for our first dan.  We don't plan on moving from the Chicago area and don't plan on going to a different school.  We want to stick with our master until at least fourth dan.

My master Mi Jung Jang is being courted by many federations.  She told us when we get our black belt that she will hand us a menu of different federations and say "pick the one you want."

SO.  When (if) we pass our black belt test, should we go ahead and pay the money to get a certificate from some federation?  If so, how would paper from  a Korean/American/Canadian federation help us?  Or would we be just as well off saving our cash?

Thanks,
Jeremy


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## Disco (Nov 15, 2004)

Depends on what your needs may be. No piece of paper can instill or remove technical applications. But on the other hand, it does have the ability to draw peoples attention. If you intend to stay with your present instructor for up to at least 4th Dan,I would say - Save your money.... artyon:


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## American HKD (Nov 15, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> All the talk on this forum about the shortcomings of the many various hapkido federations has left a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> Next year my wife and I will be testing for our first dan. We don't plan on moving from the Chicago area and don't plan on going to a different school. We want to stick with our master until at least fourth dan.
> 
> ...


Dear Jeremy,

Federations only have one purpose that's to give you some type of formal peice of paper that others will respect and accept like a college diploma.

What real skills you have only comes from your teacher and your own efforts.


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## whalen (Nov 17, 2004)

According to Dalai Lama, "If there is a solution, there is no need to worry: if there is no solution, then there is no use in worrying" hopefully this will help you put things in perspective.

Hal Whalen


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

Dear Jeremy: 

The paper I have from GM Myung simply affirms what I already knew I could do. I did it first, and the GM Myung sorta says, "yeah, thats right. You did." Like any other piece of paper, MD, license, cert Etc Etc you do the work and then, if you have some need to be able to validate this to someone, well, the "shorthand" is to be able to whip out the sheet of paper. Lets go a step farther, though. What about those skills for which there is no paper? 

I have paper attesting to my skill with a sword--- a yedo. But what about the abilities I have with a wol do? GM Myung never required me to use a shin guem let alone a wol do. Now, what? Even my sword teacher, KJN Koo has taken me so far, but I am moving beyond his material as well. What now?  Later I will be expected to use a staff, and I will likewise be learning to use a spear and a cudgeol. Who do I see for paper about that? I'm a fair shot with a rifle and got a bit of recognition from the military for that, but where is my paper? 

I'm not saying the paper is completely worthless. My certs document my relationship with my teacher, over time, and thats a good thing. I just think the role of paper in our lives needs to be kept in perspective. When I was planning my trip to Florida the focus wasn't on the paper as much as demonstrating my skills in front of my peers. The paper would have been a nice momento but that would have been it. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 17, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> All the talk on this forum about the shortcomings of the many various hapkido federations has left a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> Next year my wife and I will be testing for our first dan.  We don't plan on moving from the Chicago area and don't plan on going to a different school.  We want to stick with our master until at least fourth dan.
> 
> ...



Hello all,

If Master Jang would give you a menu of federations (not sure how that would be possible) and say pick one, she clearly feels there is no real merit in any one of them - so I'd say save your money - if she doesn't like them, then as she is your instructor, they will have no real value.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

I did the same thing in an effort to empower the student and to make them responsible for their own path. Didn't work. Not only were they reluctant to select and abide by a particular organization but the assumption seemed to have been made that I somehow had changed the rules in the middle of the game. Apparently they needed much clearer and established limits placed on them than I originally believed. Oh, well, we all make mistakes......

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

Master Jang has her own school "certificates" that she gives out when you pass your brown belt test as well as the 1-4 dan tests.  I concider that the same as when I was in grade school and we had school awards ceremony where the kids who passed the Presidents Fitness Test and had Perfect Attendence received a fancy little award to take home and hang in their bedroom.

I think if I ever wish to train in Korea for a few weeks (like Bruce did), I would ask Mi Jung Jang to call the dojang ahead of time and let them know my ability (or lack of ability).  I don't think I'll need to bring along a $400 certification from some Grandmaster that I've never met.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is...when will I ever need a certificate?  Will doors ever be closed to me because I don't have the paper?

Thanks for your input-
Jeremy


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> If Master Jang would give you a menu of federations (not sure how that would be possible) and say pick one, she clearly feels there is no real merit in any one of them - so I'd say save your money - if she doesn't like them, then as she is your instructor, they will have no real value.


I think you are dead-on.  I think she has little respect for federations.  She has a network of friends from her years at Yong-In University whom she looks to for support.  I don't think a federation ever helped her get a job in the U.S. or open her own school.  She doesn't have any of her certifications hanging on the wall.


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

I guess what I'm trying to get at is...when will I ever need a certificate? Will doors ever be closed to me because I don't have the paper?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "closed doors", but only presenting a school certificate lends itself to a higher level of scrutiny, if you are seeking affiliation outside of your present dojang. The main function of an organizational certificate is to give a broader range of acceptance within a chosen discipline and it's suppose to validate your level of technical ability - to a point. This also has a caveat, that being the recognition of the organization itself. 

Your instructor, what kwan does she represent. A kwan certificate is a step above a school certificate and usually has more weight to it, especially if your wanting to go and visit / train in Korea.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 17, 2004)

Dear Jeremy: 

See, I think you are approaching this from a flawed viewpoint, and I am not even sure I am a good person to invoke for that very reason. Heres' why I say that. 

The skills produce the paper; the paper does not attest to the skill. You are going to be good or not good depending on your last technique and nothing else. The reason I put it this way is what happened to me in Korea. When I went into Dojunim Kims school, I put on a white uniform and a white belt. It did not matter one bit what I had done before. He didn't ask to see my certificate attesting to my history with Hapkido. He did know me because other people had introduced me but that had nothing to do with the paper I left back in the States. 

And when I left his school and came home he also gave me some paper. It was a guep cert saying that I had done pretty well with the introductory material at his kwan. It has great sentimental power for me but then so does the gift of an embroidered black belt and new black uniform he gave me as a going-away gift. 

Believe it or not I have had this same discussion with my wife, of all people. She has always thought it was really great that I had a Bachelors and Masters degree. Got the paper on my wall. I know people with less paper who hold better jobs and Bill Gates, one of the richest men in the world was a college dropout! There are PhD-s on Skid Row and will be there the rest of their lives. I'll tell you what I told my wife who went after her BA after 20 years of working in telecommunications with a HS diploma--- and making a lot more than me!! Go after the degree because of what it will do for you and the quality of life for yourself, and not for the effect it will have on others. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

_Error_


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

Sorry about the font.  I've tried editing it like 6 times to make it smaller and I can't change it.  Something about copying and pasting it.


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Your instructor, what kwan does she represent. A kwan certificate is a step above a school certificate and usually has more weight to it, especially if your wanting to go and visit / train in Korea.


You know, I'm not familiar with this "kwan" thing. If someone can enlighten me, that would be great.



Here is a short bio that I have:

_"Ms. Jang is from __Seoul__ city and studied martial arts at __Seoul__Hapkido__School__. She was a member of the World Famous "Korean Tigers", "Korean All-Stars" and "Korean Pro Hapkido demonstration team". _

_Now a Master instructor, Ms. Jang was a full contact champion fighter, out of __Korea__, with a record of 43 wins. Ms. Jang graduated from Yong-In and holds a 5th degree black belt in Hapkido, 4th degree in Tae Kwon Do and 3rd degree in Judo."_

_So what would be her "kwan"? __Seoul__Hapkido__School__? Yong-In? She's talked a little about Yong-In, and from what I understand it is a pretty well known Korean university where students cross-train in a lot of arts. They pick one they wish to have as their "emphasis" or major. And they graduate (after 4 years) with a degree in physical education. However, most of the school is made up of martial artists, and most of the graduates go on to teach martial arts._

_I've met three other Koreans who graduated from Yong-In. One is a police officer (former champ of the Korean Police TKD league, or something like that). The other was a hapkido instructor. And the other guy teaches TKD at Bally's. (Poor guy)._

_I don't think dan ranks or federations or "kwans" matter so much to these people. They have their university degree's and that is what they are all most proud of._

_Note that all these instructors are in their late 20's/early 30's. Maybe this is the "new" approach in __Korea__ for martial art's training. I don't know._

_Has anyone else met graduates of Yong-In or know more about it? _

_Thanks,_

_Jeremy_


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

You may be correct in the assertion of the "New" approach out of Korea. The Kwan was the school / style one studied. There are many variations. But even from out of the university, someone was teaching them that had a background in training from one of the Korean kwans. That's were it started from, it still has to tie back either into one of them or one of the organizations somehow. Unless the university now has become it's own kwan / style, then it's on equal footing with the other's.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

Dear Jeremy: 

I am having a hard time following the purpose for your thread. Can you help me out? 

a.) Do you want the structure that an organized approach to Hapkido provides? 

b.) Do you want that structure to come from inside of you according to your own values or from outside of you according to the values of somebody else? 

I am reading a lot of things that you are writing but having a hard time understanding what you are asking for.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 18, 2004)

Take my CPA.  I study my butt off for 6 months, spend two days taking tests, and pass.  Now I've got a certificate hanging up in my cube at work.  

I have it hiding in the corner so strangers who come and visit most likely won't see it, because I don't want people to think I am overly proud have having wallpaper.  But I don't mind checking it out on my own becase it reminds me of the challenge and the accomplishment that went into getting the (rather silly) wallpaper.

I probably wouldn't have taken the CPA if I didn't believe it would open doors for me.  I thought it would give me the edge when up against another accountant who wanted the same job as me but didn't have the CPA.  

Now with hapkido.

I'm not working hard in hapkido to get wallpaper.  I'm working hard because I love hapkido.  Now, when the chance comes for me to purchase the expensive wallpaper, should I do it?  How will it help me?  Will it only help if I wish to open a school and wish to "legitimize" my skills to those who don't know me?  (They'll see the paper on the wall and say "oh, he MUST be good!")  Would it be the same as my master giving me some free wallpaper that she created on her own?  Or are there other benifits that I am just not seeing?

Jeremy


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

Dear Jeremy: 

Try this. 

"...........

Take my Hapkido. I study my butt off for months, spent a bunch of time taking tests, and pass. Now I've got a certificate hanging up in my house. 

I have it to one side so strangers who come and visit most likely won't see it, because I don't want people to think I am overly proud have having wallpaper. But I don't mind checking it out on my own becase it reminds me of the challenge and the accomplishment that went into getting the (rather silly) wallpaper.

I probably wouldn't have taken Hapkido if I didn't believe it would open doors for me. I thought it would give me the edge when up against another person who wanted the same bit as me but didn't have the training..........."


What do you think? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 18, 2004)

Hello all,

Certificates really have the value you place on them...

I tell my students that the value of certificates is that they can rtake those as a first line in the confirmation of their training - as all certificates I issue have my contact info on them so that is someone has a question about rank, they can contact me...obviously the second line of confirmation is actually training with that person...

The only other value with a certificate is that it does provide a hierarchy from your dojang in relation to the rest of us...


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 18, 2004)

Hmmmm...looks familiar.....   


Alright.  I believe I've answered my own question.  There is no benifit to having a certificate hanging on my wall.  

When I'm a 4th degree someday, I'll hope to have (in order of importance)
1. Improved my humility 
2. Become a fantastic teacher and well loved by my students 
3. Learned not to judge others so harshly
4. Learned to live life in the present (something I struggle with, as you see)
5. Removed fear from my life
6. Have mastered the technical components of my art.

I've never heard of a test that covers these.  I've only seen tests that deal with number 6.  And the only person's judgement whom I care if I have met the technical aspects are my master's.  

Numbers 1,3-5..the only person who can test me on those are myself.  

Number 2 will be tested by my students.

Thanks guys.  You've helped me a lot.
Jeremy


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## iron_ox (Nov 18, 2004)

Jeremy,

You asked about Yong-In program, well, currently, according to someone that is there right now (an American) Yong-In no longer has a Hapkido program, they teach an amalgomated system they call Yong Mu Do.  Don't really know why.


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## iron_ox (Nov 18, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> 1. Improved my humility
> 2. Become a fantastic teacher and well loved by my students
> 3. Learned not to judge others so harshly
> 4. Learned to live life in the present (something I struggle with, as you see)
> ...



Jeremy,

In my opinion, training will really help with 2, 5 (maybe) and 6 - the other three really come with exposure to life, not Hapkido - it may be an avenue, but to be your best you, just grow as a person in all facets -

Not a jab here, but I do worry when people ascribe "life philosophy" to Hapkido - it is just a single piece in a total puzzle - and unless your teacher is a phycologist, psychiatrist, sociologist, or real student of philosophy remember you are not grasshopper and we as instructors are not "Master Po".

Hope that makes sense.


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