# Bujinkan a fraud?



## Scorpion_Clan

Anyone know who this guy with a YouTube channel is? He claims to be an expert on historical Ninjutsu but claims that Bujinkan and Togakure are fake and there is actually no evidence to their legitimacy.  He is also critical of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi.  I have linked to some of his vids below.  What do you all think of this? I trained in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and Dr. Stephen Turnbull, who is one of the world's leading experts on Japanese history, especially the Samurai and Ninja, has Hatsumi writing forewards to his books, etc.  So it seems Dr. Hatsumi is good enough for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzFT1njlTas&playnext=1&list=PL65ACEEEC0B7F2912

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EnarDy3qYE&feature=related


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## Aiki Lee

I don't currently have sound on my computer so I can't comment on what he says. 

I'm sure Bruno or Chris Parker will have a field day with this one though.


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## punisher73

I have heard this stuff for years.  The scrolls that have been passed down to Hatsumi have never been shown to the public to verify their authenticity.  So until that happens, you have to take it on faith of what you are training for.

The videos posted in question address comments that Dr. Hatsumi has made in other books of his on ninjutsu and this person picks them apart showing how historically that couldn't have been.


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## Bruno@MT

I watched the clip until I saw the name 'Anthony Cummins' and then I switched it off.

I'll see if I can give you a quick summary.
Anthony is currently marketing a translation of 'Shoninki' which is a historic text on ninjutsu. Anthony is supposedly the 'head of he tranlation team'. However, it is important to note that Anthony does not speak Japanese, does not know the culture, and has no training in actual ninjutsu. He has also lied several times, and was stupid enough to provide the information that was used to uncover his lies.

For example, he provided a picture that  was discusses at length, to prove to us that he had had kobudo training in Japan. In the picture, he was wearing his hakama backwards, and after some analysis, it came out that the pic was taken in his back yard in the US.

Part of his insistence that the X kans are fraudulent is that he has 'proven' that ninjutsu does not have unique features in their unarmed combat. We can't show him a 'ninjutsu wristlock' that is really different from how a wristlock is done in other traditional system. And therefore he concludes that ninjutsu does not exist today and it was all made up. The reality is that the fighting arts that developed into the fighting arts adopted by ninja, were not that different from the other unarmed arts of those regions. After all, there are only so many ways to do something efficiently, especially considering the influences by the various other contemporary arts.

Anthony is targeting the kans because he doesn't understand the art, and also because various x kan people have been relentless in asking questions and exposing his entire trail of lies. Unless he wants to come clean and admit he was making things up all along, he has no choice but to yell at us.  And of course, he is creating as much noise as possible so that he can convince people to buy his newest book 'to learn the truth about ninjutsu.


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## Bruno@MT

punisher73 said:


> I have heard this stuff for years.  The scrolls that have been passed down to Hatsumi have never been shown to the public to verify their authenticity.  So until that happens, you have to take it on faith of what you are training for.
> 
> The videos posted in question address comments that Dr. Hatsumi has made in other books of his on ninjutsu and this person picks them apart showing how historically that couldn't have been.



For a good understanding of the legitimacy, the OP should read this:
http://blog.bushinbooks.com/archives/4
It is imo a good summary of what we know, what we accept on faith, and why we accept it.

It is also worth noting that Hatsumi sensei has not actually said or written everything that was attributed to him. Don roley verified a couple of those things, and they were editorial changes to the original interview, such as the 'straight ninja sword' remark that Hatsumi supposedly made. Turns out he didn't say that. It was added by the editor who thought he had to explain what a ninja sword was (in his opinion).

And some of the things attributed to Hatsumi were written by Hayes, back in the day. You'd think a 'researcher' would verify his sources  Oh and about anthony's research he admits that most of his research consists of nothing more than googling.


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## Sukerkin

Given that my view is that Ninja are a useful historical fiction given modern credence by the veneration the Japanese have for their elders (in this case Hatsumi Sensei) I think I'd better stay out of this one .

After all, it's not koryu and I don't practise it, so other than a lingering taste for debating things historical from my previous career, I'm not really affected by whether the X-kans are 'legitimate' or not.

If the techniques work as a martial art, then that's plenty fine enough.


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## Aiki Lee

And Bruno wins the race.


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## Scorpion_Clan

All this has me trying to decide between Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Aikido as to which one I will be taking classes in shortly.


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## jks9199

What are you going to train for?  Which school's atmosphere, scheduling, pricing, and the like is better for you?

Don't let crap on the web (including this post!) make the decision for you.  Trust your own gut when you visit the school and look at the students.  Are they people you want to associate with, and do you trust them to do potentially dangerous things to you?


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## Scorpion_Clan

I was interested in training in legitimate/REAL ninja arts.  But other than that interest I'd be happy to go for whatever is the most effective in terms of practical application.


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## Bill Mattocks

Scorpion_Clan said:


> I was interested in training in legitimate/REAL ninja arts.  But other than that interest I'd be happy to go for whatever is the most effective in terms of practical application.



Isshin-Ryu.  End of problem.  And there is no question that it is both legitimate and effective.  Just sayin'...


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## Scorpion_Clan

Bill Mattocks said:


> Isshin-Ryu.  End of problem.  And there is no question that it is both legitimate and effective.  Just sayin'...



Karate, eh?


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Hatsumi Sensei is legitimate* (as much as anyone else) as his teacher Takamatsu Sensei had plenty of training in ryu that are without question and received menkyo kaiden, etc from them. Hatsumi Sensei then received his scrolls, sokeship, etc. from Takamatsu Sensei. (what more could you want) Whether it is Samurai or Ninjutsu is still debated but..... there is no doubt about the martial training he received. (he moves like a demon) Plus not everything is always written down and some things are Kuden or word of mouth for reasons. There is simply no doubt that Hatsumi Sensei is the real deal and at the higher levels the Bujinkan and the higher level practitioners are very, very good! (of course you have to be picky and *find the right ones*) What happend with the Bujinkan is that it grew so fast, so big that it is simply a beast to have good quality control. (though that is my issue with the Bujinkan) This growing was not necessarly wanted but it did happen. So look closely, find a good instructor and if you need someone vetted then ask around about them. There are of course always going to be people who have issues with the way things are done, did not like their training, *want to make a buck* or more, etc. So when an organization is this big there are going to be people that try to tear it down. *Such is life!*


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## Bruno@MT

Yes, what happened to the Bujinkan was that it didn't so much grow as explode  I read numbers like several hundred thousand to half a million members. My Genbukan member id is still a 4 digit number.

Additionally, Hatsumi sensei did not put forth a standardized curriculum and grading guidelines, and does not kick out people who are giving the Bujinkan a bad rep. So yes, you'll have to do some checking if you want to known whether an instructor is good or not. There are some very skilled people in the Bujinkan, as well as people like mountainous, kumori ryu ninja, Charles Burgess and Richard Van Donk.


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## Bill Mattocks

Scorpion_Clan said:


> Karate, eh?



Yup.  It's the real deal.  Students learn to hit hard, move fast, and are not flashy but brutally effective.  Short lineage to the founder, and everything is pretty clearly documented with regard to authenticity.


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## bluekey88

I'm going to chime in with some advice for the OP abotu choosing between Aikido and Bujinkan.  

I trained in Aikido for a number of years, uyp to the rank of 1st kyu.  I'm currently training in Bujinkan Budo taijutsu...ranked 1st kyu.

Both arts are legitimate.  Both arts can be devastatingly effective....or devastatingly useles.  A lot really comes down to the individual practitioner, how the practitioner trains and practices, etc.  Art style really becomes irrelevant.  In fact, I find the arts to be pretty complementary in a lot of respect.  Whiel there are some critical differences, there are far more similarities between them.

One of the previous posters said it best...go to the school where you feel most comfortable.  Go to the school who seems to have the most competent intructor.  There you will find the best art.  Style is irrelevant.

If you look on the internet for advice on effectiveness...well, Bujinkan Budo taijutuse and Aikido tend to get prettyu harshly criticized (sometimes for good reason, often not).  You won't find clearness there...opinions are like a-holes.  Everyone has one and they all tend to smell funny. 

Good luck in finding the right art for you.  Good luck in your future training.\

Peace,
Erik


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## Aiki Lee

That sir, is very close to how I feel on the subject.


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## Tanaka

Hello Op, 

I would not let a post from Antony Cummings stop you from doing something. Hes not really qualified to speak on the topic of Japanese culture/history/martial arts. Not only does he not understand Japanese concepts through his western view. He does not even understand simple things like a Japanese katana is not made for "Chopping" and is used for Cutting. He also thinks the "nearly" straight swords used by ashigaru are the same thing as modern hollywood "ninjato" that you buy from stores.

So please do not let this guy stop you from making a decision about any Japanese martial art. As he is far from being the one who should influence your decision. The ironic part is that a lot of what Antony has blabbered about from the shoninki and ninpiden can be found in Bujinkan. As shown by another youtube user "scottbaioisdead"


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## oaktree

Bruno@MT said:


> For a good understanding of the legitimacy, the OP should read this:
> http://blog.bushinbooks.com/archives/4
> It is imo a good summary of what we know, what we accept on faith, and why we accept it.
> 
> It is also worth noting that Hatsumi sensei has not actually said or written everything that was attributed to him. Don roley verified a couple of those things, and they were editorial changes to the original interview, such as the 'straight ninja sword' remark that Hatsumi supposedly made. Turns out he didn't say that. It was added by the editor who thought he had to explain what a ninja sword was (in his opinion).
> 
> And some of the things attributed to Hatsumi were written by Hayes, back in the day. You'd think a 'researcher' would verify his sources  Oh and about anthony's research he admits that most of his research consists of nothing more than googling.


 
Great article by Mr.Cole. I think it should be on the FAQ in the Ninjutsu section. Maybe add something on Anthony and others to try keep track of things. Just a suggestion.


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## Aiki Lee

I think Oaktree has a great idea. These question get brought up so much and the same answers are provide, maybe they should be stickied?


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## Bruno@MT

Good idea. Perhaps it's also not a bad idea to ask the author for permission to put it up whole with source references. I'll put something together.


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## Chris Parker

Scorpion_Clan said:


> Anyone know who this guy with a YouTube channel is? He claims to be an expert on historical Ninjutsu but claims that Bujinkan and Togakure are fake and there is actually no evidence to their legitimacy. He is also critical of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi. I have linked to some of his vids below. What do you all think of this? I trained in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and Dr. Stephen Turnbull, who is one of the world's leading experts on Japanese history, especially the Samurai and Ninja, has Hatsumi writing forewards to his books, etc. So it seems Dr. Hatsumi is good enough for him.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzFT1njlTas&playnext=1&list=PL65ACEEEC0B7F2912
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EnarDy3qYE&feature=related


 
Oh, boy. Are you sure you want to go through this....? 



Bruno@MT said:


> I watched the clip until I saw the name 'Anthony Cummins' and then I switched it off.


 
Ha, you got further than I did, then.... really, I've gone through far too many of his "history" videos already.....



Bruno@MT said:


> I'll see if I can give you a quick summary.


 
And, if you don't mind, I'll see if I can add to it.



Bruno@MT said:


> Anthony is currently marketing a translation of 'Shoninki' which is a historic text on ninjutsu. Anthony is supposedly the 'head of he tranlation team'. However, it is important to note that Anthony does not speak Japanese, does not know the culture, and has no training in actual ninjutsu. He has also lied several times, and was stupid enough to provide the information that was used to uncover his lies.


 
Oh, it's a lot worse than that.

One of the only real claims that he was able to provide any backup for was that he trained under Dennis Bartrum in the UK, and provided a video clip that showed him at one of Dennis' classes. However, it was brought up that Antony lived a few hundred miles away, and a single video didn't equal 10 years of training. Dennis himself was recently contacted regarding a video Antony put up about how he was "kicked out of the Bujinkan", despite never actually being a member, paying any membership or grading fees, claiming a fourth dan, and more, and Dennis denied that Antony was ever his student, only an attendee at a seminar or two, and a number of other details that basically completely blew Antony's story out of the water. Still, he claims to have trained under Dennis for a decade, and that is the basis of him teaching people martial arts.

He has claimed to be the translator for ancient Japanese texts, but when it was revealed that he doesn't have the ability to read modern Japanese, let alone ancient texts, he stated that his friend (girlfriend?) Yoshie is actually doing the translating, and he was adding his commentary (not realising the difference between a commentary and a translation, nor recognising the requirement of understanding the subject before he comments on such matters). That then turned into a team that he was leading (?) called the "Historical Ninjutsu Research Team". Their job, self appointed, is to be the bastions of "the true ninja history", and to that end, they are looking at certain historical texts, but not from a very balanced position. For example, they're looking at texts that teach about the espionage and recruitment of spies (the Shoninki), and deciding that every Ninjutsu tradition must necessarily fit that mold, despite the fact that the text itself is very specific to a particular group (the Kishu Ryu associated with the Natori Gumi) dealing with a specific part of their teachings.

He and his team have consistently mis-used and mis-interpreted a number of terms that are still very much in use in various Koryu still extant, such as Heiho, and despite being corrected, having the correction explained, put into context, contemporary examples being used, and so on, he and the team refused to acknowledge that they could possibly be wrong, despite their take on things going against established knowledge and use of the term. Antony himself has constistently and constantly shown a complete lack of understanding of the Japanese culture and mindset, shown most obviously in the latest video (on being "kicked out of the Bujinkan").

The book he wrote (To Stand On A Stone), he first tried to market to Western Martial Arts practitioners, commenting on it's application to his study of German Longsword methods, such as Tallhoffer. He got gently laughed out of those discussions when it became apparent he didn't know what he was talking about. He then claimed it was about his "decade in training in Ninjutsu", and that is where we came in. He has also tried to claim it was about his understanding of Karate (in which he claims he earned a green belt before he was 10, and that's it). He has also written a book about Hanzo Hattori, "researched" entirely on the internet, and chock-full of errors, to the degree of thinking that "Hanzo" was a title, rather than a name. He made this mistake as the name was used in a number of generations, and he made an incorrect assumption. His books also show a degree of plagarism, up to and including unique spelling and grammatical errors.... but he chose to plagiarise a known fraud himself, which simply compounded the issue for him (as well as other, more credible authors, although his story on whether or not he had permission to reproduce their works and illustrations changed from "yes, I have permission" to "I don't need it, as it's not copyrighted", to "it's not the same picture").

So he's translating without being able to translate (and barely write in English, based on his posts on another forum), commenting without knowing or understanding, and lying about his history and relevant credentials. To begin with.



Bruno@MT said:


> For example, he provided a picture that was discusses at length, to prove to us that he had had kobudo training in Japan. In the picture, he was wearing his hakama backwards, and after some analysis, it came out that the pic was taken in his back yard in the US.


 
Not quite backwards (I did see a picture of someone actually doing that, though, which looked like it was an ad for a martial arts supply catalogue.... very funny!), his was tied in a way that would never be allowed in any training hall in Japan (tied on the side in a very messy way, the incorrect ties being used to secure it, and so on).

But the important thing with that picture was that it was discussed for a few weeks on another forum, with Antony as part of that discussion, and he was basically telling everyone that it definately was taken in Japan, that's why it was in the "Japan" folder on his webpage, and we couldn't prove it wasn't. Two months later, when it was proven that it was not taken in Japan, but outside Antony's families farmhouse in Manchester, England, he claimed that the web designer of his page got it wrong, and now he's moved it to where it should be. Now, he and his supporters claim it was never even in the Japan folder at all. That behaviour is indicative of his entire approach to everything here.



Bruno@MT said:


> Part of his insistence that the X kans are fraudulent is that he has 'proven' that ninjutsu does not have unique features in their unarmed combat. We can't show him a 'ninjutsu wristlock' that is really different from how a wristlock is done in other traditional system. And therefore he concludes that ninjutsu does not exist today and it was all made up. The reality is that the fighting arts that developed into the fighting arts adopted by ninja, were not that different from the other unarmed arts of those regions. After all, there are only so many ways to do something efficiently, especially considering the influences by the various other contemporary arts.


 
He constistently shows a lack of understanding as to what a martial art is, thinking it is unique physical methods, which can be, but is not necessarily the case. He confuses the Bujinkan as a whole, and Budo Taijutsu as an art with Togakure Ryu as a dedicated and distinct Ryu-ha, simply because the Bujinkan in it's infancy was refered to by the Togakure Ryu name. He also showed a great lack of understanding as to what Togakure Ryu actually teaches (for the most part, it matches a lot of his ideas, for the record), and refused to listen to any description, as he'd made up his mind (incorrectly) about it already.



Bruno@MT said:


> Anthony is targeting the kans because he doesn't understand the art, and also because various x kan people have been relentless in asking questions and exposing his entire trail of lies. Unless he wants to come clean and admit he was making things up all along, he has no choice but to yell at us.  And of course, he is creating as much noise as possible so that he can convince people to buy his newest book 'to learn the truth about ninjutsu.


 
No, Antony is targeting the Kan's, specifically the Bujinkan, due to his misplaced anger at it not living up to his fantasies about what "ninja martial arts" were about. In his own words, he expected to turn up in Japan and recieve free lessons if he would clean the dojo, and was told no. He expected to see fit, hard, tough martial artists, and saw a bunch of rather more average people training in a regular martial art class. He couldn't handle that, and with no real experience, had a "very polite" letter drafted to Hatsumi Sensei telling him that the Bujinkan was a joke, Hatsumi was a joke, he should revoke everyone's grade, kick everyone out that didn't make the grade, and get serious about things. Antony seemed to think that if it was in polite language, that would be fine (for a frankly nobody to talk to Hatsumi with such arrogant demands and comments). 

He has a fantasy in his head. That fantasy gets destroyed. He lashes out to destroy and attack the thing that destroyed his fantasy. That is all.

I'm really not a fan of his.


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## Bruno@MT

Sure I don't mind. Though in light of your remarks and in my defense: I did say 'summary'. You added 1200 words and there are still lots of things unsaid (like his TSKS ryu story for example) 

I know I oversimplified some things, but the alternative was to write down an entire essay which could not longer be realistically described as 'summary'


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## Chris Parker

Oh, I could do an essay... really, I could!

Yeah, even I glossed over a fair amount of stuff there, that's the biggest issue we're finding with dealing with him, there's just so much to go through! Like his idea that his university degree in theoretical archaeology and history (not Japanese) makes him qualified to translate/commentate on ancient Japanese martial arts texts, and doesn't understand why we questioned him on that.


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## Scorpion_Clan

So the Bujinkan Ninjutsu I studied under Shidoshi Thomas Maienze seems legit enough and I still trust in Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi and Stephen K. Hayes as well.  I thank you, Chris Parker, for breaking this down.  I was unfamiliar with him till yesterday so I really need to find out what his deal is so I can figure out if he is worth listening to or not in my quest to find good authentic Ninjutsu training in Ohio.

Do you all have any opinion on if this place is a good place to train? I want to get back into training.

http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/


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## Chris Parker

Like Thomas Maienze, the Bansenshukai guys started out in the Bujinkan, but split to do their own thing. They have added a few other influences, creating their own approach to things, so if you are after something a little more "pure", then you may want to continue looking. However, if you are after something fairly legit, and don't mind the cross-polination that occurs with such an approach, then check them out and make up your own mind. From what I've seen, they're decent enough, not phenomenal, but certainly solid enough for you to get something out of the classes if you enjoy the atmosphere there.


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## jks9199

The Columbus Ninjutsu guys don't even list a formal tie (not even a "former member...") tie to any of the documented ninjutsu organizations.  They may well be skilled martial artists -- but I would doubt their ninjutsu claims strongly.

If your only interest is a ninjutsu related organization, I'd suggest you keep hunting.  If you're interested in other martial arts in the area, I can strongly recommend the folks at Columbus Bando, as I know them personally.


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## yorkshirelad

Bruno@MT said:


> Anthony is targeting the kans because he doesn't understand the art, and also because various x kan people have been relentless in asking questions and exposing his entire trail of lies. Unless he wants to come clean and admit he was making things up all along, he has no choice but to yell at us.  And of course, he is creating as much noise as possible so that he can convince people to buy his newest book 'to learn the truth about ninjutsu.


 
It's sad that most Bujinkan practitioners don't know there art either. I wne t to a Bujinkan class in Dublin in 1999 with a guy who was a Shihan. He was also one of Europe's leading Amatsu Tatara practitioners. He showed us a few Kamae and then went into his office while we stood there and talked for an hour. I went back to the class the next week. Before the class, he asked me about my experience. He asked me if I'd knew any Bo-jutsu. I told him no, but I mentioned that in Aiki we had trained in Jo waza. In the clas, hee brought out a bo staff and told us we would be learning Bo-jutsu. Then he got a mysterious phone call and had to leave. One of his black belts had a key to lock the dojo after the class. Amazingly he asked me to teach the class. I was shocked! He told me not to worry and just to adapt the jo waza I'd learned to use "with a bigger stick". I never went back.

I'll take Cummins with a pinch of salt, but I'll take Hatsumi with a whole salt mine. How anyone can follow the guy blindly when he has no syllabus and most of the black belts who've been in his org for ten years or more are...wait for it.....15 degree black belts, is beyond me. 

I saw some videos of Christa Jacobson on you tube and she wipes the floor with most of the Bujinkan nonsense out there. If I had to choose between Jacobson and Van Donk, I would take Jacobson anyday!


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## pgsmith

Here's a view from the outside looking in ...
  One of the biggest problems that many people in internetland have with the Bujinkan is in the way that Hatsumi sensei is going about passing on his teachings. In the traditional Japanese approach, people are vetted before they are allowed to begin. This means that the majority of people involved in the training are serious about furthering the school. Hatsumi sensei went in an entirely different direction with the Bujinkan by basically throwing it open to anyone, and teaching a large mixture of the various schools involved. His approach (in my opinion only I might add) is predicated upon allowing time to sort out the mess. It allows a huge number of people to actually encounter the school, thus allowing a goodly number of dedicated individuals to apply themselves to going ever deeper into what he wants to pass on as the legacy of his school. However, it also allows a huge number of people to learn a little and then jump out to teach their own version of 'ninjutsu', which leads to a lot of confusion when someone is actually looking for training. Hatsumi sensei doesn't really care about the confusion as it doesn't impact what he is trying to pass on. I believe this extremely non-typical approach to training is what tends to alienate most of the traditional Japanese martial arts practitioners.

  That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with the posters that said to go check out the schools in question. In my opinion, the quality of the instructor is much more important than what you are actually learning. A good instructor will teach a martial art in a useful and practical way, no matter what the particular art. A poor instructor will not be able to teach you much of anything effective, even though the art may be the most devastating known to man. Watching the instructor teach, and watching the class itself, will tell you a huge amount about how well he is doing.

  Good luck.


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## ronin7411

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Hatsumi Sensei is legitimate* (as much as anyone else) as his teacher Takamatsu Sensei had plenty of training in ryu that are without question and received menkyo kaiden, etc from them. Hatsumi Sensei then received his scrolls, sokeship, etc. from Takamatsu Sensei. (what more could you want) Whether it is Samurai or Ninjutsu is still debated but..... there is no doubt about the martial training he received. (he moves like a demon) Plus not everything is always written down and some things are Kuden or word of mouth for reasons. There is simply no doubt that Hatsumi Sensei is the real deal and at the higher levels the Bujinkan and the higher level practitioners are very, very good! (of course you have to be picky and *find the right ones*) What happend with the Bujinkan is that it grew so fast, so big that it is simply a beast to have good quality control. (though that is my issue with the Bujinkan) This growing was not necessarly wanted but it did happen. So look closely, find a good instructor and if you need someone vetted then ask around about them. There are of course always going to be people who have issues with the way things are done, did not like their training, *want to make a buck* or more, etc. So when an organization is this big there are going to be people that try to tear it down. *Such is life!*



Ahem check out this Ninjutsu documentary that includes James Loriega it speaks for itself also if the things that they are false or fake like a majority of people are saying here then explain to me why they got featured on the site where the documentary was originally posted at and they are getting the fame (some of it negative and positive) and support from current X-kans members and former ones like Stephen Hayes as well
















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3DuM8nYzXQ 

Here is Stephen Hayes endorsing Anthony Cummins


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## Scorpion_Clan

To be fair, Stephen Hayes did NOT endorse Cummins.  He simply replied to Cummins' letter to him, mentioning his experiences in training in Japan.  Cummins claims Hatsumi is a fraud and Hayes speaks about his time in Japan learning from this master with great reverence.  If Hayes agreed with Cummins then I think he would have spoke differently.  

I watched some vids of Christa from Budo Ryu Ninjutsu as well and I was quite impressed with her technique.  She is quite good! I've been more impressed with what I've seen from her and her dojo than what I have in the Bujinkan.  The Bujinkan seems filled with inept/unqualified instructors and confused students.  After some of Cummins' claims it makes me question the entire organization.


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## ronin7411

Scorpion your concerns was also addressed by Anthony Cummins and a former Bujinkan member named Robert Law who broke away from the Bujinkan to form Geijin Ryu Ninjutsu






http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/ 

http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html 

This is just my opinion and Kiyoshi Allie Alberigo supports my statements as well because he has videos saying the same things I'm saying in this post that if you like X-kan Ninjutsu/ Taijitsu have it and have fun. Now if you like Christa's Budo Ryu Ninjutsu or any other school's style of Ninjutsu go with that as long as you are learning Ninjutsu and you like it stay with it. Now lets factor in what everyone is saying including the X-kans that anything that doesn't have lineage to Togakure Ryu is fake and isn't real Ninjutsu. Okay now lets factor in Anthony Cummins, James Loriega, and other researchers like Carl Friday as well as numerous other Japanese historical researchers that the Bujinkan and their lineage is fake. So now that everyone in the Ninjutsu community including the Bujinkan are fakes and frauds as well as other schools of Ninjutsu who do you study with now that is teaching real Ninjutsu and a real ninja lineage holder ? 

Simple answer you got to take their word for it that it is authentic Ninjutsu and as long as you see it as effective for you when you're fighting study it. Also just to validate my point Scorpion check out Kyoshi Allie Alberigo's videos too to see what I mean that as long as you're doing what you like continue doing it. They are always going to be people that think you're an idiot for studying Ninjutsu but as long as you see it as effective and dedicate yourself to the training of your chosen school who cares about their opinion as long as you're happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbs9deAhDCU&feature=related 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JXczyWvBqA&feature=channel_video_title 

http://www.lininja.com/About_our_Founder_Kyoshi.html


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

ronin7411 said:


> Ahem check out this Ninjutsu documentary that includes James Loriega it speaks for itself also if the things that they are false or fake like a majority of people are saying here then explain to me why they got featured on the site where the documentary was originally posted at and they are getting the fame (some of it negative and positive) and support from current X-kans members and former ones like Stephen Hayes as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3DuM8nYzXQ
> 
> Here is Stephen Hayes endorsing Anthony Cummins


 
*Really,* Anthony Cummins, James Loriega, Christa Jacobson, Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, etc., etc. if they are on your side then well that is just sad! (really sad)   The simple fact remains that Hatsumi Sensei is the only one with credibility. (other than those who trained with him and then broke off to do their own thing)   The majority of people believe this even if there are some people who do not and wish too and want to create their own ninja fantasy with straight swords and all. :lol:  Massaki Hatsumi was the student of Toshitsugu Takamatsu who held sokeship of several schools and passed them on to Hatsumi Sensei.  *How hard is it to understand this?* Not very!   The Kan's are where it is at there are no other lineages except for ones found in other Koryu with ninjutsu or anti-ninjutsu teachings. (that's it)

*Where people* have issues with other people in this particular martial field is when someone has no traceable lineage in Japan, no teacher, etc.  That is the issue.  Frauds and fakes abound and people wish to latch onto the cool ninja image when they have absolutely nothing to do with any Japanese Bujutsu.  Some times it is just plan unreal and a joke what people will go to!


----------



## Scorpion_Clan

So, Brian R. VanCise, Are you calling Christa Jacobson a fraud? 

You said the issue is when someone cannot say/display who their master is.....so how do you answer Mr. Cummins' claim that there is no evidence at all that Takamatsu's master ever existed? No documentation, no burial site, nothing.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I will let Chris Parker and others speak on the history of the Bujinkan et al as  hey are must more versed in this area then I am. However Takamatsu Sensei was well respected in Japan and there is no doubt that he was who he was in Japanese Bujutsu. Yet some people are of course going out of their way to create a negative image of the Bujinkan. I think you need to look at them and why they are doing this? ($ from book sales or association to create their own legitimacy) Once you do that then you understand that certain people have an agenda and they profit by it. Personally in regards to Christa Jacobsen I would suggest that you look around the web for your answers. They are there and you can find them easily if you look. I do not go around calling anyone a fraud. However, if they bring questions upon themselves and do not back up their history then it is pretty easy to make a determination on your own.


----------



## MJS

*Admin Note*

*Thread closed pending review.*

*MJS
MT Asst. Admin*


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## Bruno@MT

Scorpion_Clan said:


> So, Brian R. VanCise, Are you calling Christa Jacobson a fraud?
> 
> You said the issue is when someone cannot say/display who their master is.....so how do you answer Mr. Cummins' claim that there is no evidence at all that Takamatsu's master ever existed? No documentation, no burial site, nothing.



She is claiming to teach 'Koga ryu'. That makes her a fraud. The only people who can make that claim (whether real or not) are the banke shinobinoden. There is a chance that they are a legit school. their history is believable, they're Japanese, their body conditioning matches the things I read by Fujita Seiko, and they have the look and feel of a genuine Japanese tradition.

Being a fraud has nothing to do with martial arts skill when we're discussin lineage and authenticity. If you lie, then you're a liar.

As for Toda Shinryuken not existing, sorry, you are incorrect. First of all there is enough documentation to assume he existed. There are other known people who trained with him, and Bugei Ryuha Daijiten mentions his name as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda_Shinryuken_Masamitsu
I haven't really followed what happened, but it also appears his grave was found some time ago. Even if it wasn't, the fact that he appears in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and has trained other people should count for something.


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## MJS

*Admin Note:

At this time, this thread is being reopened.  I'd like to caution everyone though, that it will be watched.  Additionally, I'd like to remind everyone about the forum rules that you all agreed to upon joining, specifically the sections on fraudbusting and trolling.*

*Further disruption of the thread will result in it being relocked and IC's handed out, which could result in suspension and/or removal of your account.*

*MJS
MT Asst. Admin*


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## oaktree

Bruno@MT said:


> She is claiming to teach 'Koga ryu'. That makes her a fraud. The only people who can make that claim (whether real or not) are the banke shinobinoden. There is a chance that they are a legit school. their history is believable, they're Japanese, their body conditioning matches the things I read by Fujita Seiko, and they have the look and feel of a genuine Japanese tradition.
> 
> Being a fraud has nothing to do with martial arts skill when we're discussin lineage and authenticity. If you lie, then you're a liar.
> 
> As for Toda Shinryuken not existing, sorry, you are incorrect. First of all there is enough documentation to assume he existed. There are other known people who trained with him, and Bugei Ryuha Daijiten mentions his name as well
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda_Shinryuken_Masamitsu
> I haven't really followed what happened, but it also appears his grave was found some time ago. Even if it wasn't, the fact that he appears in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and has trained other people should count for something.


 
What documents are availble proving he existed? 
Are there records proving he owned land or registered with the census? How about a birth record?
There was a grave found with Toda but thats is a common last name and really does not prove if it was the same Toda Masamitsu. 
The references from Wiki point back to Hatsumi and are not independent sources.
If there needs to be a claim of Toda Masamitsu it should be in offical records like census or other reliable sources.


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## Chris Parker

Okay. and we're back. Let's get to this, shall we?



ronin7411 said:


> Ahem check out this Ninjutsu documentary that includes James Loriega it speaks for itself also if the things that they are false or fake like a majority of people are saying here then explain to me why they got featured on the site where the documentary was originally posted at and they are getting the fame (some of it negative and positive) and support from current X-kans members and former ones like Stephen Hayes as well


 
Seen it. The reason Antony was featured is simple, he has been pursuing any form of media attention whatsoever. That in no way indicates any form of credibility to him. The amount of credibility this show has is only marginally more than the "Ninja versus Spartan" episode of Deadliest Warrior.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3DuM8nYzXQ


 
Well, the first big issue is calling James Loriega and Antony Cummins "highly respected scholar-practitioners", as they are none of the above. They are not practitioners, they are not scholars, and they certainly are not highly respected. Beyond that, I saw nothing there with much basis in real understanding of anything to do with Japanese martial arts, Ninjutsu, or anything related. It was, frankly, a horrifically bad "documentary".

Oh, and before you get to my comment about Loriega not being a practitioner, I am refering to legitimate systems. The shot of him next to Hayes was taken at a "Ninja Summit" put on by Testuji Higuchi, a man who was claiming to be a close student of Hatsumi, but had no connection to him whatsoever. He pulled that for a while, but once found out it was over in terms of any legit association. At that time, though, the "summit" would take anyone who wanted to turn up, and it was no indication of legitimacy (on a number of counts). 



ronin7411 said:


> Here is Stephen Hayes endorsing Anthony Cummins


 
No, he really isn't. 



Scorpion_Clan said:


> To be fair, Stephen Hayes did NOT endorse Cummins. He simply replied to Cummins' letter to him, mentioning his experiences in training in Japan. Cummins claims Hatsumi is a fraud and Hayes speaks about his time in Japan learning from this master with great reverence. If Hayes agreed with Cummins then I think he would have spoke differently.


 
Steve is an interesting soul, in many ways. He will do whatever he can to not say anything bad about someone, and seems to be stretching that to breaking point with Antony.



Scorpion_Clan said:


> I watched some vids of Christa from Budo Ryu Ninjutsu as well and I was quite impressed with her technique. She is quite good! I've been more impressed with what I've seen from her and her dojo than what I have in the Bujinkan. The Bujinkan seems filled with inept/unqualified instructors and confused students. After some of Cummins' claims it makes me question the entire organization.


 
I can understand that. The issue with Christa is not her training methodology, it's the veracity and honesty with which she comports herself. The big issue is her claims of "Tomo Ryu", which doesn't seem to exist in any time or place in history other than in Christa's stories.



ronin7411 said:


> Scorpion your concerns was also addressed by Anthony Cummins and a former Bujinkan member named Robert Law who broke away from the Bujinkan to form Geijin Ryu Ninjutsu


 
More information has come to me from a former Bujinkan member in Canada who was there at the time, and frankly, Robert Law was never a Bujinkan member. He hosted a few seminars, used them as photo ops, and never trained. He didn't "break away", as he was never a part of it in the first place. Same with Antony, despite his claims (this is actually backed up by Antony himself, contradicting his own story a few times).

Robert Law has no credibility when it comes to Bujinkan.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xsBMrlkC1E


 
Ah, that video. It's interesting, really. Especially when Antony contradicts himself (he was kicked out of the Bujinkan, despite never being a member? How does that work?). For the record, Dennis Bartrum has been contacted about this, and has stated categorically that this is not the way things went down, Antony was never his student aside from an occasional seminar, certainly not a student for 10 years, and so on. All this does is remove even more credibility from Antony's claims and his "understanding" of these topics, and shows his anger for the Bujinkan not living up to his fantasies.

I'm going to invite you over to MAP to try to debate these things, if you think you have a point. The rules there are a little more leniant for such discussion. Here is not the place.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/


 
Seriously, you're bringing up that ridiculous list again? It is really, more than anything else, evidence that Robert Law lives in fantasy land, and has no real knowledge of anything to do with Japanese martial arts. This is the third time you've posted it here, and frankly I'm a little tired of constantly saying the same thing about it. I suggest you think twice before trying to post it as any form of support again.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html


 
Really. That piece was a full of holes, lies, mis-interpretations, and more. It supports only a rather ill-concieved agenda. Not a good source. Especially if you think it supports James Loriega as having anything to do with authentic Ninjutsu arts.



ronin7411 said:


> This is just my opinion and Kiyoshi Allie Alberigo supports my statements as well because he has videos saying the same things I'm saying in this post that if you like X-kan Ninjutsu/ Taijitsu have it and have fun. Now if you like Christa's Budo Ryu Ninjutsu or any other school's style of Ninjutsu go with that as long as you are learning Ninjutsu and you like it stay with it.


 
Enjoying it is fine. But thinking that just because the term Ninjutsu is used that it actually is is just living in denial.



ronin7411 said:


> Now lets factor in what everyone is saying including the X-kans that anything that doesn't have lineage to Togakure Ryu is fake and isn't real Ninjutsu.


 
That's not what is being said, though. What is being said is that they are the only verifiable lineages left. Saying that the brussel sprouts I serve you is really ice cream doesn't mean that anyone is biased against brussel sprouts, it just means that we are looking at what something actually is, and calling them what they are.



ronin7411 said:


> Okay now lets factor in Anthony Cummins, James Loriega, and other researchers like Carl Friday as well as numerous other Japanese historical researchers that the Bujinkan and their lineage is fake.


 
Antony is bitter and angry about having his fantasies destroyed. His training, history, and so forth, are highly exaggerated and his ability to research is highly suspect. He holds no place to make comment.

James Loriega is from a supposed Koga lineage that never existed and has been unable to prove anything close to an actual link to Japan or similar. His take is based on incorrect learning when it comes to such things, and has no authority or position as an expert in any regard.

Professor Karl (with a "K") Friday is a senior member of the Kashima Shinryu and a Professor of Asian studies. He has gone on record as stating that he has not looked into the lineages, has no opinion, and no interest. Where do you get these sources from?

Although there have been some who do not support the claims of the Ryu-ha in the Bujinkan, it should be noted that at least as many do support the claims, such as Okuse, Nawa, and Otake Sensei of the Katori Shinto Ryu (so you know).



ronin7411 said:


> So now that everyone in the Ninjutsu community including the Bujinkan are fakes and frauds as well as other schools of Ninjutsu who do you study with now that is teaching real Ninjutsu and a real ninja lineage holder ?


 
That's quite a leap there. You've gone from a few disgruntled former members making a huge fuss to thinking that that automatically dismisses the legitimacy of the Bujinkan. It really doesn't, and in no way supports the claims of others.



ronin7411 said:


> Simple answer you got to take their word for it that it is authentic Ninjutsu and as long as you see it as effective for you when you're fighting study it. Also just to validate my point Scorpion check out Kyoshi Allie Alberigo's videos too to see what I mean that as long as you're doing what you like continue doing it.


 
Effective has no place in the discussion of historical authenticity. It's an argument made by those who have no belief in the authenticity of their own system. I might add that it has even less relevance when dealing with a skill set such as ninjutsu.



ronin7411 said:


> They are always going to be people that think you're an idiot for studying Ninjutsu but as long as you see it as effective and dedicate yourself to the training of your chosen school who cares about their opinion as long as you're happy.


 
For studying Ninjutsu, no. For going about it the way you are, with good advice that you ignored, education that you completely avoid, and so on, that's a little more likely.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbs9deAhDCU&feature=related


 
Er, this supports what exactly? Allie supports the historical veracity, he just says that that's not his big kick. I do disagree with what he classes as "his ninjutsu", but I feel that comes from, as he says, his non-legit teachers. 

Once more, though, "Can you fight" is completely irrelevant when it comes to any claim to teach a historical art.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JXczyWvBqA&feature=channel_video_title


 
Er, what? I really don't see the relevance of that one whatsoever. 



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.lininja.com/About_our_Founder_Kyoshi.html


 
Look, I'm not going to go through the details of Allie's departure from the Genbukan here. Again, this is not the place.


----------



## Krevon

To be honest if I ever have to fight again the lineage of my school is not going to keep me from getting beat up.  How I train, what I learn, and how well I retain it will make the difference.


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## Chris Parker

True, but if you are training in a system due to it's historical legacy, then that historical credibility is important. Otherwise you simply aren't training in the historical legacy that you signed up for. And when it comes to Ninjutsu, the reason many are attracted to it in the first place is due to it's legacy and historical reputation (no matter how out of whack that may be with reality), therefore if there is no historical link to what you're being taught, how is it in any way legitimate? You may use the name Ninjutsu, but that doesn't make it so.

If your only reason for training is modern combat, frankly don't train in a historical system. It just ain't geared up for it without major adaptation. Train in a more modern system, Krav Maga, RBSD, boxing, and so on. If you're training in a historical system, the very fact that there is a history is important, otherwise you're just being taken for a ride.


----------



## Tanaka

Scorpion_Clan said:


> So, Brian R. VanCise, Are you calling Christa Jacobson a fraud?
> 
> You said the issue is when someone cannot say/display who their master is.....so how do you answer Mr. Cummins' claim that there is no evidence at all that Takamatsu's master ever existed? No documentation, no burial site, nothing.


I would like to take this time to announce that Christa Jacobsons "TOP SECRET NINJA TEACHER"  has two Japanese last names.

And I cannot find out his existence. Which a man with two last names should be easy to find.


Takamatsu has confirmed Kukishinden lineage(As far as I know)
And Takamatsu is very well respected martial artist. Making him less likely of being a fraud. Which would damage his reputation.


----------



## Tanaka

Krevon said:


> To be honest if I ever have to fight again the lineage of my school is not going to keep me from getting beat up.  How I train, what I learn, and how well I retain it will make the difference.




If you don't care about retaining a lineage. Then don't worry about Traditional Japanese arts.

Find a modern martial arts school built for self defense.
It's that simple. But the case of this story is... It's not Ninjutsu unless it can be traced back to legitimate Ninjutsu ryuha


----------



## Bruno@MT

Tanaka said:


> Takamatsu has confirmed Kukishinden lineage(As far as I know)
> And Takamatsu is very well respected martial artist. Making him less likely of being a fraud. Which would damage his reputation.



Kukishin is confirmed by the kuki family. The Hontain Takagi Yoshin ryu linage is confirmed as well IIRC.

The article I linked to earlier also mentions about some of the other schools in which other sources they are mentioned by name.


----------



## Bruno@MT

oaktree said:


> What documents are availble proving he existed?
> Are there records proving he owned land or registered with the census? How about a birth record?
> There was a grave found with Toda but thats is a common last name and really does not prove if it was the same Toda Masamitsu.
> The references from Wiki point back to Hatsumi and are not independent sources.
> If there needs to be a claim of Toda Masamitsu it should be in offical records like census or other reliable sources.



Honest answer: I don't know. Lots of info got lost in WW2 so that fact that we hit a dead end does not say anything one way or the other. It is also not uncommon for Japanese people to change their name at one point or the other. I know Tanemura soke as well as Hatsumi sensei did so as well. And in Sumo it is still common practice to change for various reasons.

Looking at it form the other angle: Takamatsu was a reknowned martial artist, skilled, humble, not seeking fame or riches, and had an unimpeachable status in a couple of other prestigious arts.

The other arts (with the controversial history) had to have come from somewhere. Even though he was a very skilled artist, I don't think it would be possible for him to 'invent' several new, and very different arts out of nowhere. And why would he invent several ninjutsu arts instead of just 1?

So if we can accept that those arts came from somewhere else, it stands to reason that they must have come from 'someone else' as well. And in that case, it would not make sense to use a fake name or say it was a non existing person instead of an existing one.


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## Krevon

Tanaka said:


> If you don't care about retaining a lineage. Then don't worry about Traditional Japanese arts.
> 
> Find a modern martial arts school built for self defense.
> It's that simple. But the case of this story is... It's not Ninjutsu unless it can be traced back to legitimate Ninjutsu ryuha



I did and I've trained in the Bujinkan the past 3-1/2 years.  
The odd thing is, over these past 3-1/2 years is there have been a plethora of people wanting to prove it wrong on the internet and the information given to them hasn't really changed.


----------



## oaktree

> Honest answer: I don't know. Lots of info got lost in WW2 so that fact that we hit a dead end does not say anything one way or the other. It is also not uncommon for Japanese people to change their name at one point or the other. I know Tanemura soke as well as Hatsumi sensei did so as well. And in Sumo it is still common practice to change for various reasons


 
Well if he was alive during Meiji era there should be an offical birth record since he was born of a samurai family. He should have land and records of it. He should have been taken part in a census. If other martial artist knew him aside from Takamatsu and if Kano top student trained with him there should be some records somewhere. Plenty of records of other people during the Meiji era plenty of people after. It's not like he was a low level farmer but 1.A Samurai/born of a Samurai family. 2.Had a famous school.So its really not to much to ask for validation of him since pre-war world 2 arts can trace their line(Aikido,Judo,and many Koryu arts.)



Tanemura and Hatsumi and Sumo wrestlers changed there names but in a martial context I really can not think of many everyday Japanese changing their first name or last names any more than American's changing their first or last name. To be fair Tanemura's first name is still part of his name: Shoto Tsunehisa Tanemura. I am unsure if Hatsumi's first name is part of his legal name or not.





> Looking at it form the other angle: Takamatsu was a reknowned martial artist, skilled, humble, not seeking fame or riches, and had an unimpeachable status in a couple of other prestigious arts.


I nor others doubt Takamatsu as a skilled martial artist people question if he learned it from Toda and if so is there proof that Toda exist. 



> The other arts (with the controversial history) had to have come from somewhere. Even though he was a very skilled artist, I don't think it would be possible for him to 'invent' several new, and very different arts out of nowhere. And why would he invent several ninjutsu arts instead of just 1?


Plenty of people invent arts everyday look at all the fake Ninja arts that come here so of course its possible for someone who already has an understanding of arts in that time period and is Japanese to make it up. 

To play Devil advocate for a minute, Many people come claiming Ninjutsu in modern times and we hear the story _I learned it from a secret asian man named Tanaka whatever but he died and there is no record of him._ Can you see how if we replace Tanaka whatever with Toda you have the same thing.

Is it possible Takamatsu learned a legit system of course, could he have learned it from someone else and just created a person named Toda for whatever reason sure.



> So if we can accept that those arts came from somewhere else, it stands to reason that they must have come from 'someone else' as well. And in that case, it would not make sense to use a fake name or say it was a non existing person instead of an existing one.


 
We do not know if Takamatsu created it or reconstructed it himself and just used the name Toda to add credit to it. So the reasoning that it comes from somewhere means someone else does not hold much weight. Takamatsu claims to learned it from Toda no proof of Toda no proof of transmission to Takamatsu.

But if you are happy with the art as it is presented then thats all that matters.


----------



## Indagator

ronin7411 said:


> the X-kans [say] that anything that doesn't have lineage to Togakure Ryu is fake and isn't real Ninjutsu


 
Um... Togakure Ryu is not the only Ninjutsu lineage within the X-Kans. I'm sure that anything with lineage to either of the other two would suffice as well...


I'm just sayin', is all...


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## Aiki Lee

Well, I guess you're technically right, but the other legitimate ninjutsu systems like kumogakure are not really taught to anyone, so Togakure is really the only one people tend to have experience in.


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## Bruno@MT

Himura Kenshin said:


> Well, I guess you're technically right, but the other legitimate ninjutsu systems like kumogakure are not really taught to anyone, so Togakure is really the only one people tend to have experience in.



Not quite.
I know Dale Saego was taught (or shown) some of kumogakure ryu. Tanemura Soke learned it as well, as presumably several other Japanese Shihan.

Dale mentioned that the taijutsu aspects of kumogakure are very similar to the taijutsu which comes from the other systems, so there is little point in saying 'this is kumogakure'. I also read that kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu contain a lot of the more 'ninja' skills, like castle penetration etc, and not that much taijutsu. Given that the BBT revolves around taijutsu, I can understand why those particular arts do not get taught explicitly except perhaps to the Japanese shihan.


----------



## Aiki Lee

I was aware that there was a lot of simularity in the physical movements, and I didn't mean to imply that no one knew anything about those arts.

My statement was just a generalization as to why anyone with ninjutsu training other than Togakure ryu might be viewed with skepticism since it is  find anyone who trained in kumogakure ryu or gyokushin ryu.

On the note of arts not discussed often, what of Gikan ryu? Anybody care to shed some light on what that one is all about or if it is taught ever?


----------



## Bruno@MT

Gikan ryu will be the topic for the Genbukan taikai in Japan this year.
Kotaro Tanemura Shihan has received menkyo kaiden. Other than that it has not yet been taught in Genbukan IIRC.


----------



## EWBell

Bruno@MT said:


> Gikan ryu will be the topic for the Genbukan taikai in Japan this year.
> Kotaro Tanemura Shihan has received menkyo kaiden. Other than that it has not yet been taught in Genbukan IIRC.



I believe bits and pieces have been shown here and there, by Tanemura Soke, but kind of snuck in among other things without saying what it was.  The Japan Tai Kai this year will be the first time it will be openly shown and taught by Tanemura Soke.  It also will probably be the last time.


----------



## Bruno@MT

EWBell said:


> The Japan Tai Kai this year will be the first time it will be openly shown and taught by Tanemura Soke.  *It also will probably be the last time*.



Is there a paricular reason why this would be the case?


----------



## EWBell

Bruno@MT said:


> Is there a paricular reason why this would be the case?


 
Well normally the ryu-ha was only passed from father to son. However, to really answer your question I'll ask you to look at the original Gikan Ryu Tai Kai announcement at the Genbukan website. It says this will be the first and last time it will be taught openly. So basically, because Tanemura Soke says so.


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## Bruno@MT

Thanks. I didn't look at the announcement yet. I don't really pay much attention to the taikai since I am not going anyway. And of course, being 8th kyu, ryuha studies are not really on my agenda. The genbukan and kjjr kyu level curriculum contains enough challenges to keep me very busy for the next 7 years or so. 

Although I would not say no to schooling in one of the jujutsu ryuha on a regular basis  That is the actual reason I signed up (not the ryuha but KJJR jujutsu). I didn't know about the ninpo until after I arranged with the sensei to drop by for a trial lesson.


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## RoninX

I don´t understand why so many people argue about the autheticy of this stuff when probably not even Hatsumi knows how "real" what he learnt is. 

Nobody in this thread will be able to prove you anything. They won´t prove you that Toda existed and they won´t prove that Togakure Ryu is what Hatsumi says it is. 

And the fact is that nobody has to prove you anything. The only person who has to answer about the autheticy of this art is it´s Soke, Masaaki Hatsumi. Anybody wanting to know more about the autheticy subject should  go ask Hatsumi.


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## Bruno@MT

RoninX said:


> I don´t understand why so many people argue about the autheticy of this stuff when probably not even Hatsumi knows how "real" what he learnt is.
> 
> Nobody in this thread will be able to prove you anything. They won´t prove you that Toda existed and they won´t prove that Togakure Ryu is what Hatsumi says it is.
> 
> And the fact is that nobody has to prove you anything. The only person who has to answer about the autheticy of this art is it´s Soke, Masaaki Hatsumi. Anybody wanting to know more about the autheticy subject should  go ask Hatsumi.



The question is relevant for people who don't want to belong to a group of neo ninjers who made up a fantasy martial art based on what they saw in bad movies. When I joined Genbukan I did a lot of research before I applied for membership, to make sure that I was not joining the people I already disliked when I was a decade younger, practising modern jujutsu and only knew about neoninjers I met at a seminar.

I can't judge how things go in the Bujinkan, but the odds that I would be able to talk to Tanemura Soke and ask him questions without following protocol and going via my sensei and then Shihan are slim. Very slim indeed. Especially if I wanted to grill him on this subject (not that I would, even if I could). Non-members would not fare much better I think.

So if people want to know what they are getting into and they can't have access to the various Soke, then they have only 1 place to turn to and that is the internet. And personally I think it is great that people inform themselves before joining an organization. It prevents much disappointment.


----------



## ronin7411

I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.

http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4 

http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html


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## Brian R. VanCise

All that is being said there is that the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu as it is taught is not Koryu.  That does not mean that ryu-ha within Budo Taijutsu are not Koryu just that the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu (which comprises 9 distinct ryu-ha) are not Koryu.  Budo Taijutsu is Hatsumi Sensei way of transmitting the 9 ryu-ha and it is a modern form of it. (ie. the name)  So in effect this has been dealt with, again and again and again and yet again.  Budo Taijutsu = Not Koryu but within Budo Taijutsu there are ryu-ha that are Koryu.

Hope that helps!


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## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html


You have yet to figure out how behind you are...
If you want this to be news to the experienced members here. You're going to have to go back a lot of years.


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## Bruno@MT

ronin7411 said:


> I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html



Wow... my world is falling apart...
Or not.

I've actually discussed this topic with Meik Skoss himself. Friendly guy.
The thing is: what is practiced today in the kans is not koryu. Not that big a revelation. The fact that those systems got founded in the second half of last century is a big clue. and he is right, that ninjutsu as it existed way back when does not exist anymore. Ninja themselves don't exist anymore either.

It is also not 'ninjutsu' per se which we train. What we do is based on the taijutsu aspect of the ninjutsu ryuha, as well as the ryuha associated with ninja, like shinden fudo ryu. That is why it is called ninpo instead of ninjutsu.

Several of the ryuha in the kans are even listed on the koryu.com page, such as kukishin ryu, asayama ichiden ryu and yagyu shingan ryu.


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## Chris Parker

ronin7411 said:


> I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4
> 
> http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html


 
Ha, seriously? You're going to try to preach Koryu to us? Oh, it's koryu.com, not koryo, that would be Tae Kwon Do, so you know.....

Out of interest, did you go to the link that they themselves supplied on the "FAQ" section there? For the Bujinkan perspective? They did recommend it, you know....

I'm also going to point out that Meik and Dianne Skoss make no claim to be the arbiters of what is or is not Koryu, primarily because that would cause more headaches than it's worth, so while their opinions can and do hold a fair amount of weight, it is far from definitive, or even absolutely authoritative. Add to that the articles you linked are not entirely in date, and don't deal with Jinichi Kawakami or his group (Meik was on a panel during a question and answer section with Kawakami a year or two back). It could also be added that their views are not even universal within the Koryu community, with such people as Otake Sensei of the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu reputedly going on record as saying that he felt that the Bujinkan lineages are authentic as well.

For the record, here are some videos of Juan Hombre, who claims to be a student of Kawakami, and his representative (or at least used to....). My personal feeling, though, is that these are not representative of Kawakami or his methods... frankly, if they were, there is no way he would convince anyone with any form of idea that his line is even close to authentic. 

[yt]mGgsvUZwhWY[/yt]

[yt]cTZ87RoZVac[/yt]

To compare that, here are a few Koryu systems as found in the Kan's (although not transmitted that way):

[yt]9n98eVDUup0[/yt]

[yt]x9PZLFldMjg[/yt]

Really, you're a fair bit behind here already.


----------



## ronin7411

Actually the site recommends any of kind of training that you see as effective for YOU IN COMBAT even if they don't see it as authentic bujutsu (which was stated in the article as well regarding training in the X-kans) because its martial arts training. But oh well its your problem to worry about not mine since I'm not concerned with lineage anymore only if the training can save my life when I have to use it. Besides check out this video of someone making fun of the style of Ninjutsu entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKlA9h-Ss&feature=channel_video_title along with pokes fun of how the X-kans have scrolls to back up that they are an authentic ninja lineage and thinks Ninjutsu's effectiveness in the modern world is absurd.


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## Aiki Lee

I watched about 30seconds of that hoping that it would be relavent in some way to the discussion. It is not.


----------



## Bruno@MT

ronin7411 said:


> Actually the site recommends any of kind of training that you see as effective for YOU IN COMBAT even if they don't see it as authentic bujutsu (which was stated in the article as well regarding training in the X-kans) because its martial arts training. But oh well its your problem to worry about not mine since I'm not concerned with lineage anymore only if the training can save my life when I have to use it. Besides check out this video of someone making fun of the style of Ninjutsu entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKlA9h-Ss&feature=channel_video_title along with pokes fun of how the X-kans have scrolls to back up that they are an authentic ninja lineage and thinks Ninjutsu's effectiveness in the modern world is absurd.



Good for you.
though if you really believe that Ashida Kim's drivel is any good...

Did you see his youtube video where he pretends to levitate? Only his *** is still on the ground and when the assistant pulls the hoop underneath him, it doesn't actually go underneath him but around his scrawny *** which is still firmly planted on the ground. After that, he performs a simple magic trick with a pingpong ball, though he doesn't call it stage magic but mind controlled levitation.

I think it is weird that you supposedly 'train to save your life' with someone like that.
You don't mean that you take these viedos of him seriously, do you?
Do you plan to levitate away when you are under attack?

[yt]5F3tJHuZDIo[/yt]


----------



## Aiki Lee

I just lost some IQ points by watching that; I am sure of it.


----------



## ronin7411

Um I'm studying under Ron Collins which his Ninjutsu is from the Omoto Ryu which is more militant and uses modern day military tactics because of Ron Collins' prior service in the military and I have stated this before numerous amounts of times

http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html 

Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu descends from the Kimitake clan like he states in his FAQ so we're as different as night and day

http://ashidakim.com/index.html#faq 

Also we have a different syllabus and techniques so much to your dismay and disappointment I can only use bits and pieces of Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu in my training in Omoto Ryu.


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## Indagator

Substance? Matter? Form? Light and shade? Mindless drivel. All of these. None of these. You decide, friend. You decide.


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## Aiki Lee

Ronin 7411,

What is it about those people that makes you want to follow their methods?


----------



## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Um I'm studying under Ron Collins which his Ninjutsu is from the Omoto Ryu which is more militant and uses modern day military tactics because of Ron Collins' prior service in the military and I have stated this before numerous amounts of times
> 
> http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html
> 
> Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu descends from the Kimitake clan like he states in his FAQ so we're as different as night and day
> 
> http://ashidakim.com/index.html#faq
> 
> Also we have a different syllabus and techniques so much to your dismay and disappointment I can only use bits and pieces of Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu in my training in Omoto Ryu.



Blah Blah Blah blah
Effective Blah Blah Blah
Save my Life Blah Blah Blah
Ineffective Blah Blah Blah
Military tactics Blah Blah Blah

This is all irrelevant to if it should be called "Ninjutsu" or not.
Or be considered a Ryu.


----------



## Chris Parker

I really don't see why you continue to try this, but okay, here we go!



ronin7411 said:


> Actually the site recommends any of kind of training that you see as effective for YOU IN COMBAT even if they don't see it as authentic bujutsu (which was stated in the article as well regarding training in the X-kans) because its martial arts training.


 
Koryu.com are you refering to there? Really? Once again, preaching to us (especially to me, of all people here) about Koryu is frankly you being so far out of your depth it's not even funny anymore. And I see nothing about training in something that you see as "effective for you in combat" there in any article either. Mainly because the only time the Koryu guys say things like that is to dissuade someone from training in Koryu itself, as that means you are looking for the wrong things if that's how you're coming to such a study, and it's a nice way of saying "hey, whatever makes you happy, don't let the door hit you on the way out!" A little discernment could help you out a great deal here, Johnny.

The point to take away from that is that if you have the attitude of "only what works", then that's fine.... but thinking that that has anything to do with historical validity is just wrong. And without historical validity, don't think it is anything close to Ninjutsu (or Koryu), no matter what anyone wants to call what they do.



ronin7411 said:


> But oh well its your problem to worry about not mine since I'm not concerned with lineage anymore only if the training can save my life when I have to use it.


 
Here's the thing, though.

If you are attracted to training in Ninjutsu (which you certainly were, and still are), then you are attracted to what you percieved it to be. For yourself, it's some image of what you think is effective combative methods. And with something like Ninjutsu, that is presented by it's historical legacy. In fact, it's that historical legacy that gives the art it's credibility as an effective method. Really, it's the only thing that does.

Now, if you are training in a "ninjutsu" system which has no historical validity or veracity whatsoever (we'll deal with your art in a second), what on earth would make you think that the methods they are teaching are in any way valid? If you're not concerned with lineage, then there is no reason to train in old systems (or ones that claim such age), as the historical lineage is the only thing you have to give credibility. Without it, you could very easily be training in something that has the effectiveness of hitting someone with a wet lettuce leaf (and, frankly, from seeing Ron's videos, that is most likely the case).



ronin7411 said:


> Besides check out this video of someone making fun of the style of Ninjutsu entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKlA9h-Ss&feature=channel_video_title along with pokes fun of how the X-kans have scrolls to back up that they are an authentic ninja lineage and thinks Ninjutsu's effectiveness in the modern world is absurd.


 
Son, that video seems to be targeting people such as your Ron Collins, Ashida Kim etc. The reference to "scrolls" is not a reference to the Bujinkan, more to those attempting to create the same forms of evidence. Scrolls are actually considered quite good evidence for the credibility of a classical system, you know, having them (genuinely) would be considered a good thing, it's the ones that claim it but have nothing to back anything up are the actual ones targeted there. The "80's book guy" seems to be Ashida Kim, by the way, not Hayes. You may note the spelling is the ill-informed (fake/fraudulant) "ninjitsu" that they're discussing here. 

Basically, you just showed a video that makes fun of your group. Nice.



ronin7411 said:


> Um I'm studying under Ron Collins which his Ninjutsu is from the Omoto Ryu which is more militant and uses modern day military tactics because of Ron Collins' prior service in the military and I have stated this before numerous amounts of times
> 
> http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html


 
Except for the fact that the only recorded "Omoto Ryu" disappeared a few centuries ago, there is no connection to Japan (other than Ron constantly saying that one of the teachers lives there.... but never stating that the teacher is Japanese, that the art is, that the teacher was born there, or anything of the kind, instead giving the impression that this "teacher" moved to Japan from the US or Canada... oh, and did you notice which in the little "puppet show" was Ron?), modern military tactics are completely irrelevant to a "ninjutsu" system, Ron's military claims are highly dubious, and self contradictory in a large number of places (to the point where he eventually said that the reason was that he deliberately put lies out to see if anyone would accept them[?!?!], despite that being a criminal act), and his tactics (as demonstrated on his videos) show a complete lack of knowledge, understanding, skill, ability, insight, and more, to the point that he shows some completely ill-advised and downright dangerous (to the practitioner) methods, especially where firearms are concerned. All of which you have been told and made aware of many times before as well (hence my wondering why you keep coming back with this stuff).

Oh, and that book looks hilarious, by the way... but in no way factual, realistic, effective, intelligent, or good in any traditional sense of the term.



ronin7411 said:


> Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu descends from the Kimitake clan like he states in his FAQ so we're as different as night and day
> 
> http://ashidakim.com/index.html#faq


 
No, you're as different as night and five minutes later that night.

Case in point is that Ron is part of Ashida's group (under his own name there, but the association is definately there). From there we get the "Kimitake" clan. Not really sounding like a Japanese name to my ears there, gotta say, at least, not a surname. It's a first name.

Oh, and that site is hysterical! The number of mistakes, problems, incorrect information, spelling errors, historical inaccuracies, and so on are fanastic! Needed a laugh, thanks!



ronin7411 said:


> Also we have a different syllabus and techniques so much to your dismay and disappointment I can only use bits and pieces of Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu in my training in Omoto Ryu.


 
Both are made up from nothing, though. So no matter how much you use of either, you are still not training in Ninjutsu. Gotta tell you.

Seriously, you need to come up with much better stuff than this.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Well, if -after having watched the levitation vid- you still can't bring yourself to say Ashida Kim is a con man, then that is just sad. It shows that you will validate any joker if he validates you as a 'ninjer' in turn.

If your training with Ron Collins works for you, that is great. Just don't close your eyes to the lies he was caught in, or the fact that nothing of what he does has any relevance to something an actual ninja did in Japan. The fact that he plays the 'secret teacher' game just like Bryce Dallas, Frank Dux, Ashida Kim and th erest of that bunch. It's almost as if it is impossible for a white man to throw a rock without hitting a secret ninja master just waiting to transfer their art to a western kid. 

For your information, that scenario happened only once, with a jujutsu lineage of which the last soke was a Japanese immigrant who thought he would never see Japan again or have an opportunity to train a Japanese successor. And contrary to your idols, his teacher did exist and had a name, history identification papers. He spent many years with him, traveled to Japan, met several other important names in the company of his teacher and other witnesses, has pictures and lots of details that are rock hard evidence that he speaks the truth. And he only cares about preserving his art and passing it on correctly, to a very small group of students. He doesn't advertise, does not have belts or dan grades, does not publish DVDs... He seeks no fame and asks his students not to promote him. His name is Don Angier.

From what I read, and see in your friends list on facebook, you have a hollywood image of what a ninja is, you want that, and you idolize anyone who validates your fantasy.


----------



## ronin7411

Himura Kenshin said:


> Ronin 7411,
> 
> What is it about those people that makes you want to follow their methods?



Okay its a long story but I hope you guys like reading but here is a couple of Ron Collins books on PDF specifically the Black  Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course book and his Street Focus Jujitsu  Handbook:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32627925/Street-Focus-Jujitsu-Home-Study-Course-Handbook 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32627774/Black-Dragon-Ninjitsu-Home-Study-Course 

and here is a PDF of Ashida Kim's Ninja Hands of Death:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47990796/Ninja-Hands-of-Death 

Now be forewarned that there are even more maneuvers in their  books and videos that are used in other martial arts as well but I'm  only going to do a few comparisons to their material and it being used  in the real world and how it goes into my training at the school I belong to where I get formal instruction.

Check out  this video called Pro Wrestling Moves Done MMA Style






there is a submission hold called the Sleeper Hold at 3:07 in  the video that was also used in Mitsuhiro Ishida and Coal Uno's fight well  in Ron Collins' Street Focus Jujitsu Handbook on page 33 he calls it the  Cross-Arm Strangle and in Ashida Kim's Ninja Hands of Death on page 41  he calls the same hold the Human Strait Jacket Hold and since I want to  train in MMA more often as soon as my finances are more stable that is a  submission hold I'm going to be using while I train in MMA.

Now  at 3:30 seconds in the Pro Wrestling Moves Done MMA Style video there is  a move called the DDT or the Downward Drop Takedown which that maneuver  was referenced in the Yoshihisa Yamamato vs Mark Kerr fight well on  page 37 of Ron Collins' Street Focus Jujitsu Handbook he demonstrates a  DDT as well which can go into my martial arts training as well

Also here is Jeff Speakman going into a stance where  he is on one leg with his hands up against my American Kenpo instructor  Matt Lanman. Well all Jeff Speakman had to do was open his hands up and  straighten his back up and he would of been doing a Tsuru Ashi Kamae  stance which is on page 14 of Ron Collins' Black Dragon Ninjitsu Home  Study Course

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/christie/723/ 

Well this is just a rumor and can't be confirmed but factor this into the equation that James Mitose claimed to have trained with Fujita Seiko and combining his training in Koga Ryu Ninjitsu and Sato Ryu Kempo into his Kenpo teachings

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/comp-other.html 

http://www.freewebs.com/kenpoexchange/History2.htm 

Check out this video of Shootfighting instructor Mark Barnett   he runs the East Coast Shootfighting Academy in Stuart, Florida 






Starting off on 1:28 seconds of the video Mark does a Goshi  Nage from Ron Collins Black Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course book which  is on page 40 

Then on 1:35 seconds into the video Mark has does  an Ankle Breaker which is featured in Ashida Kim's Ninja Hands of Death  on page 35 and transitions into a Hip Breaker after the Ankle Breaker  which is featured in the same book by Ashida Kim on page 37

Then  also on 1:47-1:58 seconds into the video Mark demonstrates the Sickle Submission Hold not once  but twice which is featured in the same book by Ashida Kim on page 40  too.

Moving on to 2:51-3:00 into the video which Mark does a  Sweeping Roll well in Ashida Kim's Ninja Shot video in 2:56-3:03 seconds  he does the same move that Mark does as well and he's shown  demonstrating it too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXm8MFUMFyQ&feature=fvst 

I also train in ITF Tae Kwon Do at my school and General Choi Hong Hi was a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Shotokan Karate under Gichin Funakoshi 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong_Hi 

Now look at the biography of Takeshi Shimada he was a respectable Shotokan instructor that also studied Koga Ryu under the Kurokawa clan and was Gichin Funakoshi's personal assistant

http://www.jkiindia.jkiworld.com/masters.html 

Along with I train in Hapkido which its founder Choi Yong Sool trained in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu and even that is contested by people as well which that style has roots to the Black Dragon Society 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Yong-Sool 

http://www.butokudo.com/Kotaro.html 

So in short no matter what style I study in the martial arts I'm going to be called a fraud and a fake anyway because of the negative things associated with that style or its practitioners and I see moves they do that mirror what I'm training in formally at a school and because I see similarities from my school's teachings to what they do too mind as well use them to reference my training at my school too. Sounds simple don't it ?


----------



## Chris Parker

You are kidding, right? Look, I don't have time to go through all this now, as I'm about to head out and teach an actual class, but I'm more than happy to go through it all tomorrow, and pull apart everything you've said here, as you are completely out of touch with reality as it pertains to martial arts, violence, combat, effectiveness, validity, credibility, and more.


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## ronin7411

Look guys I don't care what you think of me I have my reasons as to why I do the things I do regarding my martial arts training as you guys do with yours. Besides I haven't seen Bruno provide proof yet of Toda's existence as Oaktree requested other than the response he doesn't know and I guess you guys banned RoninX for his comment stating the same thing. You guy's have your own problems to worry about it as it is if threads like this are coming up questioning your style's lineage just like the styles that I formally train in and this is just counting in the styles I train at in a school not Ron Collins' or Ashida Kim's material either. So go on ahead say whatever you want to say about me and why I'm approaching my martial arts training in this matter I got better things to worry about than pleasing people who are being called the same things that they are calling me. (Hint read the title of this thread)


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## Aiki Lee

RoninX, I believe, was banned for his insulting behavior towards members of the forum. Specifically his sniping on the aikido threads. I'm sure he had other stupid comments on other subjects as well.

I believe we are all getting a little tired of pointing out why Collins, Kim, Dux, Dallas, and Sho Kusugi are not credible ninjutsu sources. If you like the "training" you get, good, keep practicing. But you have to acknowledge that it is not actual ninjutsu because it has no link to Japanese ninja, or even Samurai schools with ninjutsu curriculum.

Mr. Parker has pointed out that if these people lie about their art, then they probably have no basis for knowing it is effective. Being in the military does not automatically make you understand close quarters combat. It does make you a bit more credible when talking about unit tactics and firefights.

Evidence for the credibility of the takamatsuden has been laid out several times before. If you are dead set against it then there is nothing that can be done to chage your mind. Arguing with a stubborn person is like giving medicine to the dead. The difference with the kans and their offshoots is that they *have* evidence. If its not enough for you or other people then that's that. But the phoney baloney characters out there provide *no *evidence. That is why they shouldn't be believed.

You didn't really answer my question so I think I need to reword it.

Why pick these people over other, more objectively credible instructors? And for the record, hapkido, mma, and TKD are fine, but not very compatible with ninjutsu. I'm getting the impression you are being taught all these different approaches at the same time, which is not a great approach to training for mastery.


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## Bruno@MT

The argument we're having is like this.

You say you are learn to ride a Porsche. We say it is not a Porche but a ferrari because it doesn't look like one, it doesn't handle like one, the pedals are the wrong type, and the telltale shield is missing from the hood. And then you say _'I don't care what you say. It is faster than your car, I don't care about lineage or where it comes from'_

A similar argument could be made for learning leanguages, and you claiming that cyrillic is a different form of Japanese.

It's good that you like what you are doing, but if you really wanted to learn X, at least make the effort to find X, instead of picking Y while still calling it X, because you think Y and X are the same.


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## pgsmith

The thing that I always wonder about people training with instructors such as Ron Collins or Ashida Kim, is why do they always come to MA forums and argue? It is pretty darned obvious with just a little research that they are being sold an invented art. However, many of these people show up on various fora and inevitably, when confronted with evidence that it's an invented art, say they don't care what others think. If they don't care what others think and enjoy their training, why do they keep coming back to argue that it's something it obviously is not?

I just don't get it. If someone wants to pursue the Hollywood ninja image, then that's great. If it gives them some confidence and makes them feel good about themselves, then great. If they don't care what others think and want to continue what they're doing, then great! However, if that's truly the case, why try so desperately to convince others that it is something that it obviously isn't?


----------



## Aiki Lee

I think the people who get suckered into these situations don't do hardly any research, and they join forums because they are genuinely excited about what they do. Then they begin to hear things and get very offended. It is normal for people to defend any belief they hold, because no one wants to have to admit that they have been wrong or tricked. It makes people feel stupid or gullable.

I think in the cases such as this it is necessary to point out to those individuals that it is not their fault they have been tricked. These frauds are professional conmen who have spent years learning how to prey on the minds of people. It only becomes their fault once they realize that they are wrong and continue to act as if they are right.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

So in short no matter what style I study in the martial arts I'm going to be called a fraud and a fake anyway because of the negative things associated with that style or its practitioners and I see moves they do that mirror what I'm training in formally at a school and because I see similarities from my school's teachings to what they do too mind as well use them to reference my training at my school too. Sounds simple don't it ?[/quote]

It sounds to me like you want to study MMA so why not just study that instead of calling what you do Ninjutsu when it has no base in that?


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## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Okay its a long story but I hope you guys like reading but here is a couple of Ron Collins books on PDF specifically the Black  Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course book and his Street Focus Jujitsu  Handbook:


You are so hopeless. You have so many people telling you what to do to get into a legitimate martial art. And you still try to do things your own inexperienced way. You still try to live in fantasy of being a Ninja. After 3 seconds of watching the Ashida Kim video I could tell he wasn't doing anything remotely close to traditional Japanese system OR ANYTHING JAPANESE. So that excludes Ninjutsu. And are you kidding me?
"Pro wrestler moves done in MMA"
...It's more like grappling in MMA

The sleeper hold isn't something new to anyone here. In fact it is commonly referred to as Hadakajime. Other Japanese arts may call it differently. And the thing about Hadakajime is YOU WILL most likely get it wrong and develop bad habits with it. Unless you have qualified training under qualified instructor.

So one final time(Before I just start sitting back and laughing at you), stop living in fantasy. You have been told that Ninjutsu requires historical lineage.
And systems that claims historical/traditional value needs valid lineage.


----------



## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Look guys I don't care what you think of me I have my reasons as to why I do the things I do regarding my martial arts training as you guys do with yours. Besides I haven't seen Bruno provide proof yet of Toda's existence as Oaktree requested other than the response he doesn't know and I guess you guys banned RoninX for his comment stating the same thing. You guy's have your own problems to worry about it as it is if threads like this are coming up questioning your style's lineage just like the styles that I formally train in and this is just counting in the styles I train at in a school not Ron Collins' or Ashida Kim's material either. So go on ahead say whatever you want to say about me and why I'm approaching my martial arts training in this matter I got better things to worry about than pleasing people who are being called the same things that they are calling me. (Hint read the title of this thread)


Takamatsu has verified Koryu lineage(Ex. Kukishin ryu)
Therefore as a respectable martial artist his claims are a lot more believable.(As he is dead and cannot stand up for himself)

Than Ron Collins and Ashida Kim's  mysterious super duper secret Ninja masters that came to America and taught them Ninjutsu.(Coincidentally during the American "Ninja" boom.)
With known dead lineages.

-Oh yeah and doing things that don't look like traditional Japanese arts.


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## ronin7411

How about this guys since I already answered why I approach my martial arts training the way I do with links why I do and since you guys keep bringing this up I have a favor to ask of you guys that Oaktree asked before that RoninX elaborated on as well plus I want to see if you guys can do it as well:

Since the title of this thread is "Bujinkan a Fraud ?" show us proof that Toda existed without using any material from the Bujinkan and any organization affiliated with or has lineage to Togakure Ryu and with Masaaki Hatsumi being used in doing so since its your style we're talking about here not mine. Show us Japanese documents from the government proving he had lived at one time or show us public records that Toda existed that are not related to the X-kans or Masaaki Hatsumi. (Since everything you guys showed me regarding your lineage is that its a partial truth not all of it is real since it can't be all confirmed) Also I don't want to see the Kukishin blog again neither and which has the same responses Bruno was giving Oaktree when in his own words he decided "to play Devil's Advocate" of "I don't know you got to take his word for it". Since I've showed why I do the things I do with my martial arts training show Oaktree, RoninX, and all of the people who doubt the lineage of Togakure Ryu that the missing piece that Oaktree asked Bruno about is real and that the Japanese government has proof that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did exist at one time or another.


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## pgsmith

> ... and that the Japanese government has proof that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did exist at one time or another.


 

  I don't know about any of the other stuff that you're worrying about as I have no connections with any of the ninjutsu groups. However, it is pretty obvious to me that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did in fact exist as he's listed in Yamada and Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. They were known to be pretty meticulous about their research. You could have easily found that out for yourself if you had taken a few minutes to look for it. Sorry if you feel disillusioned, but trying so hard to put down other traditions won't help you much in the end, even if they turn out to be every bit as invented as what you are practicing.


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## Indagator

Bruno@MT said:


> A similar argument could be made for learning leanguages, and you claiming that cyrillic is a different form of Japanese.
> .


 
Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but you saying this brings back to mind the hilarious occasion I experienced once while listening to late night talkback radio.
There was a guy who was slurring his words and making a bunch of rather incoherent statements, who claimed that the "cyrillic language" came from bears. Apparently the guttural tones and so forth were passed down from bears to men, or something. He went on for quite awhile on this topic - longer than any of the other stuff actually, but what was funniest was his argument and reasoning. He actually had taken a logical approach and used logical thought processes to come to his conclusion. Skewed logic, but logic nonetheless. It made sense in a certain sort of way.

I wish I had of recorded that, actually. It lives on in my memory, fading slightly as the years slip by...


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## ronin7411

pgsmith said:


> I don't know about any of the other stuff that you're worrying about as I have no connections with any of the ninjutsu groups. However, it is pretty obvious to me that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu did in fact exist as he's listed in Yamada and Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. They were known to be pretty meticulous about their research. You could have easily found that out for yourself if you had taken a few minutes to look for it. Sorry if you feel disillusioned, but trying so hard to put down other traditions won't help you much in the end, even if they turn out to be every bit as invented as what you are practicing.



Where's the proof at ? Also even you are saying that some of it might be made up too just like the arts I'm studying I'm like Oaktree (Hope you don't mind Oaktree but here is links to your individual posts http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372516&postcount=39 and http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372580&postcount=48 ) I want to see hard evidence from a Japanese government document that Toda existed not hearsay. Also you can ask Scorpion Clan and Kumori Ninja too along with my friends I talk to that belong to the Bujinkan I always recommended Togakure Ryu to practice with but even they are under the same scrutiny that other styles of the martial arts face with its detractors and people who don't like the art and their practitioners as well but their opinion of it shouldn't stop you from studying it.


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## Indagator

Based on "Kumori Ryu Ninja" 's open-to-the-public Facebook page I don't think he has much love for the Bujinkan, not at all.

In fact, it would almost seem like he had a score to settle of some kind...

Speculation, I know, but like I said - the page is open to the public, and the comments... well... hmmm?


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## Aiki Lee

The "proof" is in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, or did you not read the post you just quoted? If someone showed you a Japanese document would you even know what was being shown? It would be in Japanese, could you read it?

Besides your point doesn't address the same degree of questioning. That would be like us asking who Collin's (or Kim's) teacher's teacher was. The do not reveal proof of having a single ninjutsu teacher. Hatsumi has proof of training with Takamatsu. That is the degree of questioning that is reasonable to compare with what others are asking of the questionable people you seem to be defending.

You think my earlier question was answered with your response, but I don't think you understand what I meant. I saw the drawings and read through some of those books you posted, and looked at the "kata-dante" (please look up Count Dante if you get the chance, you will see that he was a crazy person) and I don't see what about these methods you find appealing. My question is why choose these people to study under? What (other than their techniques) is waht draws you to them.

Please do not compare Scorpion Clan with Kumori Ryu Ninja. During private conversations with Scorpion Clan, he revealed that he is looking for legitimate teachers to train under, Kumori Ryu looked for every possible excuse to avoid training so he could teach his watered down version of the basics.

Your enthusiasm is good, but it is misplaced in these people. They do not teach ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is Japanese, it is old, its techniques should display a particular kind of movement and be suited for a particular type of enemy.


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## Cryozombie

ronin7411 said:


> show us proof that Toda existed without using any material from the Bujinkan and any organization affiliated with or has lineage to Togakure Ryu and with Masaaki Hatsumi being used in doing so since its your style we're talking about here not mine.


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## ronin7411

Is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten a Japanese government document or is it a private document in a martial arts school in Japan that is privately held and maintained without Japanese government oversight ? Like I said I will only trust Japanese government documents proving that Toda existed which according to Oaktree should be easy to find since the Japanese government keeps records dating back to the Meiji era not hearsay and something that can be fabricated out of the thin blue air just to cover their tracks. Also Himura so what John Keehan/ Count Dante dojo raided a school that owed him money then killed a student of that school and got a friend of his killed in the process AND WALKED AWAY WITH DOING IT. Also here is something regarding James Mitose that I bet you guys didn't know about that the last 5 years of his life was spent in Folsom Prison because his last student Terry Lee/ Nimr Hassan killed someone that owed Mitose money as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mitose I already stated why I use Ron Collins and Ashida Kim's materials I see similarities to the moves I do in my American Kenpo, ITF TKD, and Hapkido classes plus when I train with people that do MMA I have successfully used moves sparring against them from their books. (like I prefer to go for a Human Straight Jacket Hold/ Hadakajime/ Scarf Choke (BJJ name of it) then a rear naked choke because its quicker to apply than a rear naked choke) Along with when I research the martial arts backgrounds of the people who founded or heavily influenced the styles that I study I see that the Koga clan was associated to that art so since I see the connections to the arts I'm formally training in to Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (despite it being from separate clans of the Koga) I use them as a reference to my training in the martial arts.  I also had private conversations with Scorpion Clan too and to be honest he's in Ninjutsu heaven in Ohio and if he feels like talking to you about it (personally I don't blame him if he doesn't) I recommended that he goes to the Columbus Ninjutsu Club since it has a Bujinkan base which he talks about it in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372065&postcount=25 This is the thing I think is funny about it that I found out about the Columbus Ninjutsu Club and its instructor Dan Buckley and Chris recommending it like he does in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372071&postcount=26 Now I'm factoring in his like of Christa Jacobson which was seen in this post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372205&postcount=31 and well I don't if you guys know this or not but Dan Buckley belongs to the Ninjutsu International Federation (NIF) as the Ohio representative which the head of it is Christa Jacobson. http://cjj2004.tripod.com/ninjutsuinternationalfederation/id91.html and here is his profile on his school's website using the same picture http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/instructors.shtml


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## Aiki Lee

ronin7411 said:


> Is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten a Japanese government document or is it a private document in a martial arts school in Japan that is privately held and maintained without Japanese government oversight ?


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugei_Ryuha_Daijiten



ronin7411 said:


> Also Himura so what John Keehan/ Count Dante dojo raided a school that owed him money then killed a student of that school and got a friend of his killed in the process AND WALKED AWAY WITH DOING IT.


 
And you are ok with this? To be associated even by degree with people that regard this lunatic as someone worth learning anything from?



ronin7411 said:


> Also here is something regarding James Mitose that I bet you guys didn't know about that the last 5 years of his life was spent in Folsom Prison because his last student Terry Lee/ Nimr Hassan killed someone that owed Mitose money as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mitose


 
What does this have to do with anything? 




ronin7411 said:


> I already stated why I use Ron Collins and Ashida Kim's materials I see similarities to the moves I do in my American Kenpo, ITF TKD, and Hapkido classes plus when I train with people that do MMA I have successfully used moves sparring against them from their books.


 
And this has what to do with ninjutsu exactly? You seem to be interested in them because what they do looks like MMA or Kenpo, or TKD in whcih case why not train in those arts? You can't mix a bunch of random techniques and call it ninjutsu. Thats like me throwing lettice, tomatoes, spinach, and carrots into a bowl, topping it with dressing and calling it a sandwhich.



ronin7411 said:


> Along with when I research the martial arts backgrounds of the people who founded or heavily influenced the styles that I study I see that the Koga clan was associated to that art


 
I am unclear as to what you are saying here, Koga is related to what exactly? 



ronin7411 said:


> so since I see the connections to the arts I'm formally training in to Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (despite it being from separate clans of the Koga) I use them as a reference to my training in the martial arts.


 
You are not training in a real Koga ryu, the last known practitioner who could show proof of his claims was Fujita Seiko and he stated he did not have the intention to pass it on to anyone. Therefore, legitimate Koga ryu died with him.



ronin7411 said:


> I also had private conversations with Scorpion Clan too and to be honest he's in Ninjutsu heaven in Ohio and if he feels like talking to you about it (personally I don't blame him if he doesn't) I recommended that he goes to the Columbus Ninjutsu Club since it has a Bujinkan base which he talks about it in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372065&postcount=25 .


 
I would think ninjutsu heaven would be Japan, where ninjutsu is from. Your comment about me seems like a personal insult. you don't really know the extent of our conversation and frankly its not relevant to the discussion on this thread.



ronin7411 said:


> This is the thing I think is funny about it that I found out about the Columbus Ninjutsu Club and its instructor Dan Buckley and Chris recommending it like he does in this post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372071&postcount=26 Now I'm factoring in his like of Christa Jacobson which was seen in this post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1372205&postcount=31 and well I don't if you guys know this or not but Dan Buckley belongs to the Ninjutsu International Federation (NIF) as the Ohio representative which the head of it is Christa Jacobson. http://cjj2004.tripod.com/ninjutsuinternationalfederation/id91.html and here is his profile on his school's website using the same picture http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/instructors.shtml .


 
Chris can speak for himself, but I will address some of what you are talking about from my perspective.

1. It does not look to me like Chris is recommending anything. He is stating the group started as a bujinkan group and therefore has some legitimacy. At least that is what I interpret from his post.
2. Other than a few things, I think Christa moves pretty well. The problem is not her movements I think but her claims of some Tomo Ryu or whatever she calls it. She makes claims that cannot be backed up. Its not that she isn't a good martial artist, its that she is teaching an art she either made up or was duped into believing was real. Either way Tomo ryu is probably fake.
3. Buckley's former association with the bujinkan gives him some credibility but partnership with jacobsin might lower it depending on why he did so. If he believes her koga claims it makes him seem foolish in my opinion. If he went to her for togakure ryu training or some other legitimate training she may have, then maybe he remains credible depending on what he is getting from her.


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## ronin7411

Are Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada  Tadashi Japanese government officials or just like your link says they recorded what they encountered in their lifetime ? Like I stated before show me a Japanese government document from the Japanese government that validates Toda lived and I read it too it appears that Watatani Kiyoshi was good friends with Takamatsu and was only a school teacher like Yamada Tadashi not Japanese government officials. Who would be able to provide land deeds to Toda's school and bone setting clinic along with him being included in a population census which all I see is a book not backed by Japanese government documents. Honestly I would train with John Keehan a guy that has mob connections and connections to the Black Stone Rangers (don't forget I'm from the Chicagoland area) plus he already killed people and used his training in doing so. Then since I already train in American Kenpo which James Mitose has a criminal background and conviction which resulted in him getting a life sentence and a majority of Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu practitioners were also members of the Black Dragon Society which Hapkido draws influence from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dragon_Society which was a Japanese intelligence gathering organization which was disbanded after Japan's defeat during WWII. So it isn't going to help me at all to deny it because they did it and I'm studying their styles (My American Kenpo lineage is related to a murderer and my Hapkido lineage is related to a Japanese terrorist organization) but I train with killers, terrorists, and murderers and blunt I love it and I would rather learn from a person who killed someone than someone who hasn't. Also I wasn't taking a jab at you Himura I was telling you that I had talked to Scorpion Clan in private as well and gave him some links to some Ninjutsu schools in Ohio to help him out with his training. He also has multiple options and lots of schools to chose from in the Ohio area since Hayes has his school as well as numerous other organizations that are X-kans too as well as other schools of Ninjutsu are in his area. Also I already said it I train in a school with instructors in American Kenpo, ITF TKD, and Hapkido then when I got the chance I train in MMA as well and use their material as a reference for my training. Oh yeah I just wanted to bring it up to everyone's attention that even though you recommend one person and slap the other as a fraud then why don't you acknowledge the one that you're calling a fraud when the one you are recommending is associated with them and publicly admits to it.


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## Indagator

Ok, Ronin. I take it you intend to come to the party and show what you demand of others? Namely, Japanese government records of Shendai Kimitake or whatever the flying phalange y'all claim lineage from. I expect to see every ounce of evidence you demand of others substantiated by yourself against your own claims.

Secondly, wtf is with the murderer/terrorist thing? I have lived in Northern Ireland, and have many blood relatives who are involved with things I will not even elaborate on - one thing I will mention though, is that I have direct blood relatives who lived and were heavily involved (and one in particular who died in Long Kesh) with Northern Ireland's MP Bobby Sands. These are members of an organisation which is regarded by a certain few as a "terrorist" organisation.

I am being as candid as possible here, as I myself was raised elsewhere and have had little to no involvement with such elements, other than blood relations, however my point is this: Does this make me more or less of a ninjutsu practitioner...?

The answer... It has no bearing. Whatsoever. Not any. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. And as for yuor statements? You are a legitimate ninjutsu practitioner because "Count Dante" was involved in some murders?

What the (d)uck are you talking about, you idiot?

I don't want to call you an idiot, but what you have said merits it, man.

Sooner or later the taste of gobshite is gonna fill your mouth to the brim. Might wanna buy some listerine, buddy.


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## jks9199

*Thread locked pending staff review.*

*jks9199*
*Super Moderator*


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