# Banke Shinobinoden -- split from Bujinkan fraud



## Bruno@MT (Mar 11, 2011)

I have split these posts from the 'Bujinkan scam' thread, since the subject went on a tangent about Banke Shinobinoden, which is a much more interesting topic.
Since the new discussion started on page 4 and was kinda lost among the other posts, I thought it would be good to give it its own thread.
To give some background, the discussion mentioned Juan Hombre, who someone said represented Banke.

From what I read about Juan Hombre, he is not considered a representative of Banke shinobinoden. He himself seems to think so yet when that topic came up, Kamawami  sensei apparently said that they have no representatives outside Japan. Which is really the polite Japanese way of saying 'hell no'.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 11, 2011)

Both have actually been said. Kawakami has gone back and forth a bit from saying that he has never shown any Westerners anything "real" from his traditions, to saying that yes, Hombre and some of his students have travelled to Japan to train with him semi-frequently over about 10 years, but there are no representatives outside of Japan, to there being a Spanish group linked with Hombre that are teaching Kaawakami's methods.... gets a little confusing, really!


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## Akatombo (Mar 13, 2011)

This guy, Mr.Juan Hombre, started training Bujinkan a long, long time ago. (they say he wanted to be representant in Spain, but you know that is not the way Bujinkan works). Then, he went to Genbukan and published very rude things against Bujinkan. After some time, same story, Tanemura Sensei did not want to noun him as his representant, and he left. He published it was a matter of money. Then, he met Yunoki sensei, who opened the doors of his house to him. I don´t know what happened, but after some time he broke his relation with Yunoki san, too.  All this is fact.

More or less ten years ago he found Kiyomoto sensei (don´t know details). He and his students were accepted to visit the school, and even an orientation seminar was done for them. I think (this is just my opinion) the Japanese sensei thought he was really interested in learning from them. He started going with students every year, but the Japanese sensei were amazed when they found out he was lying in Europe, telling that he was (again) a sensei of the school, issuing menkyo and using the name of the school to attack Bujinkan and Genbukan, putting false rude words in the mouth of Kawakami Sensei... Besides, he did not change at all his previous way of training, what you can see in the videos. It is 100% obvious for anybody who has studied Japanese martial arts that his style is not traditional at all. But if he did not want to learn...why he was travelling to Japan? (I have my opinion, but it isn´t good, so I will remain silent).

Only two of Mr. Hombre´s co-travelers got the blessing of Kawakami sensei after some years. They were told to travel to Japan alone, not with Mr.Hombre, for receiving full transmission and systematic training. At the same time, Kiyomoto sensei published that the school had not branches overseas as a polite way to stop Mr.Hombre.

And five years later, this two Spanish students, and other two who joined the school got Mokuroku in some ryuha of this tradition, and license to open a dojo in Europe, as you can see in Kiyomoto sensei´s web. Mr.Hombre is not training with this school anymore, but the sensei refuse to publish anything against his reputation. That is difficult for westerners to be understood, but is common in Japan. Katori ryu had a similar problem some years ago and they remained silent, too.

Other day we can talk about different points of view between Bujinkan and Banke no Den. But today, I just feel it´s important to say that Kawakami sensei never spoke against Hatsumi sensei or Bujinkan. 

I hope you enjoyed the story. I´ve tried to be as much objective as possible.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks for posting. If I may ask: are you a student in Banke Shinobinoden?


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## Akatombo (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes, I am. But I´d like you all to consider that my words are only mine, and that I don´t represent this school. Anyway, what I wrote is known for everybody in Spain.

We are four accepted students, all from Spain. I think there are more out of Japan, but I am not 100% sure about what kind of relationship they have with the school, so I´ll not noun them. We have not taken Keppan yet, but we have first mokuroku.

About Mr.Hombre, his own student and friend, Mr. Ignacio Serapio (nickname: kakutobugei) wrote in a spanish forum that he was in the meeting of Otsuka when Kawakami sensei told him (Mr.Hombre) that he could not be his representant because he trains his own style. 

Going now to my school, it´s truth that the point of view is quite different from Bujinkan, but I don´t think it must be a problem. Banke no Den considers ninjutsu to be a military intelligence art, not bujutsu at all. But we study bujutsu, too: Shinden Fudo Ryu Yawara (nothing to do with Bujinkan´s Shinden fudo Ryu), Ichi jyo Ho koppojutsu, Toda Ryu Jutte, Shizuka Ryu Kusarigama, Izumoshin Ryu kenjutsu...

Banke Shinobi no Den means "shinobi transmission of the Ban family". Its a modern name (like "Bujinkan") to join inside different traditions about bujutsu and shinobi, whose common point is that they arrive to our days through the transmission of this Shiga ken family, even when they did not founded most of them; the same way some people sometimes say "Takamatsu den" to refer to Bujinkan.

About Bujinkan I only can say that I was very happy there for (more or less) fifteen years, and that I keep very good friends there. I remember how sad and hard was for me to talk to my Shihan when I decided to change my way. Fortunately he is a real Shihan, and our friendship goes on nowadays.

I think Bujinkan people should not worry about fraud. History of japanese martial arts is full of stories we will never know if are truth or not. We all (even people in Koryu) need a little of faith.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 14, 2011)

Cool. Of course I understand you don't officially represent your school, just like I am not a spokesperson for Genbukan. The distinction between ninjutsu and bujutsu makes sense I think.

What I've been wondering for a while now: is there documentation about the banke ninjutsu and bujutsu lineages? Like scrolls, or references in other places?

And if I understand correctly, part of the Koga ninjutsu is about body conditioning and endurance. Are there still people prepared to engage in that type of training which is arguably detritemental to the body? I read things like learning to dislocate your shoulders, toughening the weak parts of the body for surviving impact (like a bo against the throat), knuckle and hand conditioning like the clip below... This is similar to what I read about Fujita Seiko's training btw.

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It seems to me that in todays world, it would be illegal to subject kids to training like that. Does this mean that those parts of the banke lineage will die out?
I hope you don't mind I'm asking these questions.


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## Akatombo (Mar 14, 2011)

I´m really impressed by your questions. I think you touch the exact point.

About documents: Kawakami sensei has a lot of makimono, yes. But that is not so important, and is not a valid proof of anything. His position in this school, and in other organizations in Shiga ken, allows him to have many of them even without being direct heir. Hatsumi was right when he said that documents without training are nothing.

About physical conditioning: After IIWW, Kawakami was sent by his father to study with Ishida sensei. (Perhaps it was a way to have one mouth less to feed in the terrible post war in Japan). He was trained in a way which is 100% ilegal nowadays. He developed extraordinary skills, but he paid a high price with his own chilhood. Some of those skills are not healthy at all, but in the real shinobi tradition the health of the shinobi is nothing if compared with his efectiveness for his master´s goal. It´s terrible, but it´s the old way.

(Of course, his story could be false. But the fact is that he has the skills.)

To answer your comment, you are right: An important part of the tradition will be lost after Kawakami sensei. Now you can imagine our feeling when we were accepted as students.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 14, 2011)

Akatombo said:


> I´m really impressed by your questions. I think you touch the exact point.
> 
> About documents: Kawakami sensei has a lot of makimono, yes. But that is not so important, and is not a valid proof of anything. His position in this school, and in other organizations in Shiga ken, allows him to have many of them even without being direct heir. Hatsumi was right when he said that documents without training are nothing.



Thank you. It is correct that documents without training are worthless. I am told that old makimono can be bought in antique shops, so anyone can get them. I was just curious if there was a specific ban scroll.



Akatombo said:


> About physical conditioning: After IIWW, Kawakami was sent by his father to study with Ishida sensei. (Perhaps it was a way to have one mouth less to feed in the terrible post war in Japan). He was trained in a way which is 100% ilegal nowadays. He developed extraordinary skills, but he paid a high price with his own chilhood. Some of those skills are not healthy at all, but in the real shinobi tradition the health of the shinobi is nothing if compared with his efectiveness for his master´s goal. It´s terrible, but it´s the old way.



Very interesting. I had not heard this before. In the olden days when ninjutsu still served a point, there were not only risks but also large benefits. Those abilities had a large possible reward. These days, those skills -while admirable for the endurance they embody- bring no benefits anymore.

Additionally, people do not die as young anymore, due to the absence of armed conflicts. Since people with that kind of training now also reach an old age, arthritis and various other age problems will catch up with them.



Akatombo said:


> (Of course, his story could be false. But the fact is that he has the skills.)
> 
> To answer your comment, you are right: An important part of the tradition will be lost after Kawakami sensei. Now you can imagine our feeling when we were accepted as students.



On a historical level, it is indeed not possible to judge whether his training was a lie or not.  But as you say, his skills are clearly visible. For example, the knuckle conditioning, and the ability to dislocate your shoulders at will have to be trained from a young age. And those skills cannot be developed without someone who knows what he is doing. So looking at it from that point of view, and with the distinction between ninjutsu and bujutsu traditions, and the various other aspects of the story that match what I know about Fujita Seiko, I think is very plausible that his story is true.

And because of that, I can indeed imagine your feeling when you were accepted as students in banke shinobinoden. He is the last living person who has first hand experience with that training and who is still testament to the extraordinary skills that will only continue as legend.


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## Akatombo (Mar 14, 2011)

That is why there was a misunderstood. Kawakami sensei never said he was "the last ninja" or something like that. What he once said was that he does not know anybody else who follow this kind of training from childhood. He was not talking about martial arts at all. Other people -we know who- used that to get publicity and to attack Hatsumi sensei and Tanemura sensei at the same time. I´m very sorry for that.


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## Akatombo (Mar 27, 2011)

There is one more thing which perhaps results interesting for you: in the Edo period, the government of Shiga ken had a Register with the names of legally authorized profesional shinobi, like lawyers or doctors nowadays. 

In the same direction, not many people in the West know about Koka Ban Toh Ichimonkai. This organization is independent but quite near to Ban ke no den school. 

There are so many mistakes in which we have been told in the west...


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 27, 2011)

I read that someone recorded the seminar, demonstrations and interview with Kawakami sensei (the one where Meik Skoss was present during the interview). Are those recordings public, or perhaps available as a DVD? From what I read about the seminar, it seemed very interesting.


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## Akatombo (Mar 27, 2011)

There is a record, but not for commercial purposes. I think Kawakami Soke would not authorize that. (It´s very common that japanese masters of martial arts have not a very good opinion about merchants, mainly merchants of martial arts. In example, have a look to what Musashi Miyamoto wrote about it in his famous book.). But perhaps Daniel DiMarzio can help you. 

In the same direction, in Europe we created a group of study some years ago, and last summer we got the permit to open the first offcial "dojo" out of Japan (as you can see in the official webpage); but at the same time Kawakami soke wants us to keep the tradition of previous interview, one on one, before accepting new students. Just with this it´s very easy to see that the school is not going to grow up much, and that commercial profit is not the goal.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 27, 2011)

As a person who doesn't kow anything about the people in question, can someone clear up a few things for me?

Is Banke Shinobinoden, Kawakami's group? What does it mean?

Is there any footage or pictures of Kawakami's methods? Why is there controversy about him?

And while Juan's techniques a clearly not traditional you can't help but think he would make a decent movie choreographer?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 28, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> As a person who doesn't kow anything about the people in question, can someone clear up a few things for me?
> 
> Is Banke Shinobinoden, Kawakami's group? What does it mean?


 
Yes, Banke Shinobiden is the teaching group/organisation of Kawakami Jinichi Sensei. The name refers to "The Ban Family (Ban [name] Ke [family]) Shinobi/Ninja Transmission (Den). According to Kawakami (as Akatombo wrote above), the traditions taught came through the Shiga family.



Himura Kenshin said:


> Is there any footage or pictures of Kawakami's methods? Why is there controversy about him?


 
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[yt]91NHHU4r6qk[/yt]

There's a couple of others, but they're mainly repeats of these ones.

As to the controversy, I'm keeping out of that here for now...



Himura Kenshin said:


> And while Juan's techniques a clearly not traditional you can't help but think he would make a decent movie choreographer?


 
Ha, maybe! I did have some students recently ask if we get to learn "that cool weapon from Ninja Assasin".... my responce was less than encouraging....


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## George Kohler (Mar 28, 2011)

Akatombo said:


> But we study bujutsu, too: Shinden Fudo Ryu Yawara (nothing to do with Bujinkan´s Shinden fudo Ryu),



You would be surprised to know that the mokuroku that is listed on Banke Shinobinoden for SFr yawara is the same as the mokuroku for SFr kenp&#333;.

Yawara
soku gaeshi
kagami dori
muna dori
muna otoshi
ect.
kenp&#333;
washinoha gaeshi
ryufu
rangiku
sennin kuzushi
ect.

This SFr kenp&#333; school was taught by Ueno Takashi, who was also the teacher of Hatsumi Sensei, and I wouldn't be surprised that Hatsumi Sensei also learned this school.


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## Akatombo (Mar 29, 2011)

Banke Shinobi no Den, or "Shinobi tradition of the Ban Family" is a modern name for the group of old schools which arrive to us through that family of Koka (Shiga ken). That is the common point for all them. Kawakami Junichi is the soke of this tradition in this lineage. Kiyomoto Yasushi is the shihan. Some people in Spain try to present as if Kiyomoto sensei had his own school (that is 100% false)  trying to separate the idea of shinobi and samurai, ninjutsu and bujutsu. But the real teaching of Kawakami soke is that a shinobi is just a samurai with some especial training from childhood in ninjutsu, besides bujutsu.

The reason (in my opinion) why this school had some bad critics in the past is that some people presented themselves as representants, (whyle they were, in fact, just visitors, not accepted students) and started to teach technics that had nothing to do with the real japanese school (this is a fact). At the same time, their goal (the fake "ninja´s") was to earn money, so they started a "marketing campaign", attacking Bujinkan, Genbukan and other well respected schools without permision or even knowledge of the japanese sensei. Fortunately, we are talking about people with so, so low level of education (don´t speak English or Japanese, i.e.) that it was easy to expose them. But even nowadays some of them go on with their fraud, mainly in South America, where it´s easier to find less informed people nowadays.

Excuse me, please, for my comments. I hope not to bring problems to this forum.


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## Akatombo (Mar 30, 2011)

Dear Mr.Kohler 

I think it was 2006, february. That morning I arrived to Kiyomoto sensei´s house in Sagamihara by 11.00 a.m. The door was opened, and he was sitting on the floor of his living room, talking by phone. Without finishing his conversation, he told me to sit and wait a little, and so I did. When he finished, he asked to me: "Do you know who Ueno Takashi was?"  - "sure"- I said. Immediately, he started to draw the tree of students of Ueno Takashi sensei. The names he wrote, you can imagine. But there was other name which was completely new for me; it was Anegawa sensei, 92 years old (aprox.) at that time. "It was he at the phone"-told me Kiyomoto sensei before we started my instruction that morning.

When I saw the familiarity he was talking to other sensei of such well respected tradition and age (for more than 20 min), I understood I was not dealing with any common sensei. 

In the same direction, there is other interesting story. I suppose you read Arthur Conan Doyle´s Sherlock Holmes novels. The writer invented that Sherlock Holmes studied a martial art which name is Baritsu. That was a mistake. The real name of that art was Bartitsu, and it was developed by a british gentleman (E.W.Burton-Wright was his name) who studied Shinden Fudo Ryu in the Kansai area and, then, based in that knowledge, he founded Bartitsu (we are talking about long, long time ago). The transmission was not full, but in any case I find very funny to think that, indirectly, the favorite caracther of my chilhood studied the same school I´m studying now. We asked Kawakami sensei about him, and he told us that his sensei told him about 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

It´s really funny, because, if you remember Mr. Holme´s tricks and hidden weapons after this, it´s difficult not to surrender and think not only about Shinden Fudo Ryu but about other traditions which sometimes go together with SFr in Kansai area. It´s just fiction, but, after two centuries, the last mistery of Sherlock Holmes arrives to us.

Somebody should write a novel!!


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 30, 2011)

It's a small world eh.


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## Muawijhe (Mar 30, 2011)

I remember drawing a similar conclusion about Sherlock Holmes. I learned it was not the Shinden Fudo ryu in the Bujinkan, but another Shinden Fudo ryu (which I hear there were different schools with that name). I was not aware it was the one found in the Banke Shinobinoden.


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## Akatombo (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, I´m not sure it´s the same lineage. But, according to Bartitsu Society web page, the name of the katas are the same. So, even if it was different line, I think it´s the same school at origin. Very small world, indeed.


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## George Kohler (Mar 31, 2011)

Akatombo said:


> Well, I´m not sure it´s the same lineage. But, according to Bartitsu Society web page, the name of the katas are the same. So, even if it was different line, I think it´s the same school at origin. Very small world, indeed.



I'm sure that the source of Bartitsu's kata were from my post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1338994&postcount=12


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## Akatombo (Apr 1, 2011)

It´s very possible. In my case, I got the information from Dr. Marco Palomar, who is other accepted student of my school. 

Our SFr has different levels, and Kenpo is the third one: Syodandori (ura and omote), Chudandori (ura and omote), kenpo, Eri, Nakagokui. It was common in the past that some students learned only a part, so it´s possible (I don´t know) that, when they say Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, they are talking about that part of the same mokuroku, or perhaps in other different line the whole school takes its name from this part of its mokuroku. Zoku gaeshi, kagamidori, etc etc are part of Syodandori.


There is other thing which is interesting, too. Before studying this school I studied Bujinkan for 15 years, more or less. I had only 4th dan, but enough to have studied Shinden Fudo Ryu Takamatsu no den. Katas are different, of course, from this other SFr, but I found some common points. In example, most japanese school start the "sitting technics" from seiza, but if you think about this two Shinden Fudo ryu schools, its very common to start from fudoza (Bujinkan) or Kiza (Banke). Kiza is quite similar to fudoza, but you don´t sit on your left leg, but directly on the ground, which is little more uncomfortable. For the person who looks, it´s difficult to see the difference.


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## skuggvarg (Apr 1, 2011)

> In example, most japanese school start the "sitting technics" from seiza, but if you think about this two Shinden Fudo ryu schools, its very common to start from fudoza (Bujinkan) or Kiza (Banke).


 
Interesting anecdote. Seiza is of course a very common position as you know but there are many other sitting positions used in japanese martial arts from sitting on the knees, to one knee, to sitting on your buttocks or on your feet. All of those exist so it may just be a coincident.

Regards / Skuggvarg


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## Akatombo (Apr 1, 2011)

Sure, you´re right. I did not intend to suggest any kind of connection between this two SFr. In fact, I don´t think it´s even interesting to look for it. But, at the same time, different positions use to have a reason to be used. So, sometimes, similar positions of the body could suggest similar technical concepts or "positions of the mind". If we use the japanese word, kamae, it´s easier -perhaps- to see what I mean.


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## Devon (Apr 2, 2011)

Akatombo said:


> Well, I´m not sure it´s the same lineage. But, according to Bartitsu Society web page, the name of the katas are the same. So, even if it was different line, I think it´s the same school at origin. Very small world, indeed.



The Bartitsu Society website (www.bartitsu.org) does not state that the names of the kata were the same.  There is no record of the names of any of the kata/waza illustrated in Barton-Wright's circa 1900 articles, nor even any proof that those articles demonstrate Shinden Fudo Ryu kata or waza.


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## Akatombo (Apr 3, 2011)

In that case I´ll have to apologize. I trust the person who told me, and the story was so nice that I did not check it myself. Excuse me.


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## former bujikan student (Mar 13, 2014)

Hi this is my first post here on this forum, which I must say I am impressed by the knowledge and amount of respect  being shown for each other.i will try to watch my questions and not be disrespectful .first let me just give you a brief history of my brief studies in martial arts I always wanted to study any form of martial arts growing  up but my mother would not let me as she believed it would violate our conservative religious beliefs so as soon as I turned 18, I joined a Dojang for Tae Kwan Do only a couple of blocks from my house and stayed until I reached red belt recommended but I felt it was just not practical for self defense for me (I am not saying Tae Kwan Do isn't a self defense martial art) so after reading a news paper article about a "supposed ninjutsu instructor in town, well of course I had to go see for myself,  this gentleman claimed to be sure student under Tanemura Sensi, of which I never saw any form of menkyo ,anyhow 3 years later and my wallet , checking and bank account much lighter I found out he was a complete fraud and I still have no idea what he was teaching .Then I read another news paper article showing a certified under Soke Hatsumi, 7th Dan teaching at a local university and anyone interested in joining our watching were welcome.well I consider that an open invitation so I met with the Instructor and his students at his outdoor shibu and I was instantly drawn to the different attitude of the students and instructor well that was back in 1991 and I stayed until 1998 until my chronic health would not allow me to train any longer I only mad it to 3rd kyu and at the time I thought Hatsumi Masaaki was the only legitimate recognized Soke until I ran upon this post about Soke Kawakami please understand I am not trying to stoke a fire hear and I am not Ryu blind but this totally shakes what little I thought I knew about the Ninjutsu world ! What are the differences and similarities to Bujikan as far as tai-jutsu .again apologies if I am offending anyone as when I was studying under the Bujikan system it was one of the best  experiences in my life I made great sincere friends your patience in explaining would be greatly appreciated.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 14, 2014)

former bujikan student said:


> Hi this is my first post here on this forum, which I must say I am impressed by the knowledge and amount of respect being shown for each other.i will try to watch my questions and not be disrespectful .



Welcome aboard!



former bujikan student said:


> first let me just give you a brief history of my brief studies in martial arts I always wanted to study any form of martial arts growing up but my mother would not let me as she believed it would violate our conservative religious beliefs so as soon as I turned 18, I joined a Dojang for Tae Kwan Do only a couple of blocks from my house and stayed until I reached red belt recommended but I felt it was just not practical for self defense for me (I am not saying Tae Kwan Do isn't a self defense martial art) so after reading a news paper article about a "supposed ninjutsu instructor in town, well of course I had to go see for myself, this gentleman claimed to be sure student under Tanemura Sensi, of which I never saw any form of menkyo ,anyhow 3 years later and my wallet , checking and bank account much lighter I found out he was a complete fraud and I still have no idea what he was teaching .Then I read another news paper article showing a certified under Soke Hatsumi, 7th Dan teaching at a local university and anyone interested in joining our watching were welcome.well I consider that an open invitation so I met with the Instructor and his students at his outdoor shibu and I was instantly drawn to the different attitude of the students and instructor well that was back in 1991 and I stayed until 1998 until my chronic health would not allow me to train any longer



Okay.



former bujikan student said:


> I only mad it to 3rd kyu and at the time I thought Hatsumi Masaaki was the only legitimate recognized Soke until I ran upon this post about Soke Kawakami please understand I am not trying to stoke a fire hear and I am not Ryu blind but this totally shakes what little I thought I knew about the Ninjutsu world !



Yeah, I can understand that... 



former bujikan student said:


> What are the differences and similarities to Bujikan as far as tai-jutsu .



Okay, here's where it all gets a little confusing....

Firstly, let's look at exactly what we're discussing here, which is ninjutsu and ninjutsu-related lineages. Thing is, while some lineages might have some small amount or degree of physical combative techniques (such as Togakure Ryu), it's really not what ninjutsu actually is, and is more there for when the ninjutsu aspect has "failed" in some way. Kawakami Sensei is often quoted as saying that he teaches ninjutsu and bujutsu... indicating that they are separate studies entirely. And, when it all comes down to it, the schools of the Bujinkan support that idea as well. So what does that mean here? Well, taijutsu is a physical combative methodology... and is therefore bujutsu, not ninjutsu. In the Bujinkan, there's a degree of cross-over (with Togakure Ryu being a "ninjutsu" school, but including a small repertoire of bujutsu methods geared around the context of applying the ninjutsu methods, Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu being bujutsu schools linked with what we now call "ninja", although not ninjutsu schools themselves), but in the teachings of the Banke Shinobinoden, the ninjutsu lineage is completely separated from the bujutsu lineages. 

When it comes to how the bujutsu methodologies of the Bujinkan and the Banke Shinobinoden differ, well, that's pretty much the same as how any two sets of physical techniques and concepts differ from each other. There will be some similarities, and a range of differences... some weaponry that is more "unique" to one group or the other... some preferences for certain tactics over others... and so on. That said, the listing of bujutsu systems taught by Kawakami have some... well... interesting names associated... including a Shinden Fudo Ryu (that seems to be somehow linked with a form taught by Seiko Fujita, SFR Kempo, although there is no connection to Fujita in Kawakami's stories of where his training comes from) and a Takenouchi Ryu that I can't find connected to the actual Takenouchi Ryu at all. I'm personally less-than sold on the claims.



former bujikan student said:


> again apologies if I am offending anyone as when I was studying under the Bujikan system it was one of the best experiences in my life I made great sincere friends your patience in explaining would be greatly appreciated.



Hope this has helped in some way.


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## former bujikan student (Mar 16, 2014)

Thank you very much, I understand the separation between the bujutsu and ninjutsu but 2 hen I am talking about and I guess I am only referring to the Bujikan system being 6 school of bujutsu and 3 of ninjutsu but they all still relied on such basics as ichi munji  although different degrees of stances on being from a unarmed mountainous school and a shallow angle and deeper bend at hips and knees for armored school s all the 9 systems in Bujikan have some similarities so I guess what I am asking is any of the bujutsu between the two schools similar?  Does Tawakam'si system  use any similar techniques ie kihhon happo? Thank you for taking the time and having the patience to answer .Repectfully.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 17, 2014)

former bujikan student said:


> Thank you very much, I understand the separation between the bujutsu and ninjutsu but 2 hen I am talking about and I guess I am only referring to the Bujikan system being 6 school of bujutsu and 3 of ninjutsu but they all still relied on such basics as ichi munji  although different degrees of stances on being from a unarmed mountainous school and a shallow angle and deeper bend at hips and knees for armored school s all the 9 systems in Bujikan have some similarities so I guess what I am asking is any of the bujutsu between the two schools similar?  Does Tawakam'si system  use any similar techniques ie kihhon happo? Thank you for taking the time and having the patience to answer .Repectfully.



I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you're saying in that first sentence... the lack of punctuation makes it a bit hard to read. But, if I'm following you correctly, you're saying that the Bujinkan schools all rely on similar things, such as Ichimonji no Kamae, yeah? Honestly, I'd disagree with that pretty much out of hand. In essence, you can break the Bujinkan schools down a few ways, one of which is to look at relationships between the arts themselves... which gives us two primary groups (that I think of as the Hakuun grouping and the Amatsu grouping).

The Hakuun grouping is Togakure Ryu (Kain Doshi, one of Daisuke Togakure's teachers, was said to have taught him Hakuun Ryu), Gyokko Ryu (founded by Hakuunsai Tozawa of the Hakuun Ryu), Koto Ryu (founded by the 12th Soke of Gyokko Ryu), Gyokushin and Gikan Ryu (also from Gyokko Ryu), and Kumogakure (related to Togakure Ryu); and the Amatsu grouping is Kukishin Ryu (directly related to the Amatsu Tatara), Takagi Yoshin Ryu (taught alongside Kukishin), and Shinden Fudo Ryu (also associated... with a couple of different theories as to how...). As a result, each of the groupings have their own similarities... but it doesn't necessarily cross over from one grouping to the other. Ichimonji, for instance, is fairly central to the Hakuun grouping, but not the Amatsu ones... same with the Kihon Happo (coming from Gyokko Ryu). The postural concepts (deeper, lower, higher etc) are particular to the different Ryu... there are similarities between, say, Gyokko, Koto, and Togakure... but Shinden Fudo Ryu (Dakentaijutsu) has none, Kukishinden is quite different again, Takagi is yet again a different set of principles and ideas. Some are armoured systems, some aren't. Each have different distance concepts, different rhythms, different tactical applications, and so on. 

When it comes to the systems taught by Kawakami, I haven't seen much, and what I've seen didn't really thrill me (then again, it's often been said that Kawakami's bujutsu is average at best, as that's not what he focuses on), so I haven't looked too much in depth at much of it... but, as there's no real connection to anything in the Bujinkan, I'd highly doubt that there'd be much beyond some superficial traits that are more about them both being Japanese systems shared between them. I wouldn't expect anything along the lines of a Kihon Happo (some basics, Kihon etc, sure... but the Kihon Happo is a specific ideal and concept to Gyokko Ryu, not anything to do with any other art).


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## former bujikan student (Mar 17, 2014)

Thank you again Mr.Parker ,is their any you tube videos that show any of Soke Kawakami's tai-jutsu? I am just curious to see what the differences are , and thank you for helping g set me  straight I greatly miss training  and wish I could continue but several joint replacements and and 24/7 insulin pump has ended what I loved doing and learning.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2014)

Most of what I've seen is weaponry work, there's a couple of examples on the first page of this thread.


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## Jameswhelan (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi FBS,

The only person around here who can answer your question with any authority is Akatombo who has trained in both Ban-ke Shinobinoden and Bujinkan. It'd be best to ask him.


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## former bujikan student (Mar 18, 2014)

Thank you sharing and setting me straight I truly miss my training the camaraderie that comes with learning new waza's and hanka's it was the best period in my life.but several joint replacements and being attached to a medical device 24/7 put an abrupt end to my traing. I do however like to read up on new developments in the martial art world.and to me hearing of another Soke recognized by the Japanese government was quite a surprise and  I really appreciate a knowledgeable person such as you Mr. Parker giving such detailed answers. 
Repectfully


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## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2014)

Jameswhelan said:


> Hi FBS,
> 
> The only person around here who can answer your question with any authority is Akatombo who has trained in both Ban-ke Shinobinoden and Bujinkan. It'd be best to ask him.



Sure.... of course, this thread is from 3 years ago, which was the only time that Akatombo was posting (almost exclusively in this thread), and he hasn't been back since... so it might be not unexpected to have others answer in his absence. After all, discussion forum and all that, rather than definitive source of information where only those absolutely "authorized" can add anything.... I mean, no one, including Akatombo, have claimed any authority to speak on behalf of Kawakami or the Banke group....



former bujikan student said:


> Thank you sharing and setting me straight I truly miss my training the camaraderie that comes with learning new waza's and hanka's it was the best period in my life.but several joint replacements and being attached to a medical device 24/7 put an abrupt end to my traing. I do however like to read up on new developments in the martial art world.and to me hearing of another Soke recognized by the Japanese government was quite a surprise and  I really appreciate a knowledgeable person such as you Mr. Parker giving such detailed answers.
> Repectfully



Hmm. One little thing... no Soke of any martial art is "recognised by the Japanese government". There are sometimes awards given from various governmental bodies (ranging from local to national), there are some martial arts and artists that are designated as Living Treasures, but that's really not the same thing. There isn't any true governing body of martial arts, even in Japan, so there is no way for any group to be "recognised" above, beyond, or separate to any other. To that end, neither Kawakami nor Hatsumi are "recognised" by any governmental body.


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## Jameswhelan (Mar 19, 2014)

In traditional Japanese martial arts we consider it impolite to speak on behalf of others about the ryuha they belong to. Or for that matter to presume to inform others about ryuha we are not involved in. 

In doing so, or guessing, the risk is run of misinforming.

For example, even a cursory familiarity with Ban-ke Shinobinoden - just website reading - shows that (according to their traditions) Takenouchi ryu koroshi atemi no den comes from the Takeuchi and Kimura families of Omi. Shinden Fudo ryu was transmitted from Anegawa Katsuyoshi, not Fujita Seiko. This is public stuff. I can't imagine why someone would be compelled to speak about where this or that ryuha comes from when they haven't even made the basic efforts at understanding it.

Again, it is best to leave Akatombo the space to explain about his school - or not - as he finds appropriate, rather than have to have him mop up first.


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## former bujikan student (Mar 20, 2014)

Please , please I am not trying to start any arguments I was just surprised to see another Soke in a different ninjutsu system other than Bujikan as it has been 9 very a decade since I was an practitioner and I apologize if I caused any waves I will not ask any more questions  8 appreciate what was shared with me very much .


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