# Shin-Toshi Karate, your thoughts?



## Strikes (Jun 5, 2013)

Hello all,

I made a post in the beginner forum but it isn't getting any attention.  I would like to train in Karate, but there are not many options near me, so I would like to see what you all think about this school that is fairly local.

Here is the description of the art:
http://www.karateshin-toshi.com/Excellence/evolution.htm
And the school's website:
http://www.utahkarateinstitute.com/

I am 26, in the Air Force, stationed at Hill AFB and I live in Ogden, UT.  I'm fairly flexible for not stretching and am also fairly fit 5'10" 145lbs.  I don't know if I want to risk Tae Kwon Do because I do want to be able to defend myself in a self defense situation and I know that TKD CAN be used, it's more for the sport and not trained as much for self defense.

Thanks!
~Quinn


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## K-man (Jun 5, 2013)

Don't know anything about the place but from reading up on the website, my nose is itching. I would keep looking. That school seems to be very _touchy feely, _like a school I attended for a short time. I hesitate to use the 'M' word but it has a lot of the signs. :asian:

Just had a quick look at what's around the area. This is one I would look at ... http://www.actkenpo.com/index.html


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## Strikes (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks for the reply!

I don't have enough experience to be able to tell what is good and what isn't.  So I don't know where to go to learn, there aren't many options around here that I can find.


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## K-man (Jun 5, 2013)

Strikes said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> I don't have enough experience to be able to tell what is good and what isn't.  So I don't know where to go to learn, there aren't many options around here that I can find.


You beat me with your response.  
Things I don't like about places are short classes, higher fee if you don't lock in a direct debit, lots of touchy feely, love is in the air messages. It seems to be set up as a business model to bring in the kids by appealing to the 'good side' of the parents.

What I like about the other one, I added to my post above, is the reality based approach training against common weapons and instructors who look as if they might know what they are doing, rather than being '_assets to the school'.  Just my 2c ...

_Oh, also! The school I posted invites you to go along and check it out. That's always a positive._
:asian:_


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## jks9199 (Jun 5, 2013)

Visit.  See what you think.  If they won't let you visit -- that's a bit of a red flag.  (Note: there is a difference between "this would be a bad week" and "no, no contract, no visit...")

I don't know enough about the system here to have much of an opinion.


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## chinto (Jun 6, 2013)

what I read makes my nose itch too... I would suggest you keep looking and see what else is available.  I would be looking for something shall we say more conventional in linage.


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## Zero (Jun 6, 2013)

Cripes there a lot of young kids with blk belts or higher in that club and a few v young "senseis" (still in their teens) in this very recently founded school.  I would not say don't be so closed minded not to try them out if you can do so for free but I am suspicious of the quick grade progression rate and the ages of some on the "Team Leadership" and what real SD abilities you would get from this place.   If there are other less kid focused schools about such as the suggested links I would punt for those instead.

Are there no clubs/groups or even a skilled/experienced karateka or martial artist on the AFB you can't train with in down time???


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## Zero (Jun 6, 2013)

Gosh, maybe I am a cynic today but even that suggested ACTKenpo club's link made me wince, photos are never good to go by I guess but the first one on the home page of the guy throwing a punch with his eyes closed didn't exactly inspire confidence, none of the higher ranks seemed confident with or comfortable in their punches/strikes in the photos.  It may still be a good no-nonsense club though and worth checking out, I may be totally wrong...

The other clubs I checked out online in your area seemed to be quite kid orientated or had "black belt assurance" accolades which always gives off a strong conveyor belt / McDojo whiff.  If there is no one on the base you can train with then just head down and check them all out I guess, see if you can spend a couple (at least one) free sessions at each one to get a feel for what seems right for you.


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## Mauthos (Jun 6, 2013)

If you follow the link in the website you posted to their mainpage (covering all their schools not just the one you are interested in)

Here it is for ease of use: http://www.karateshin-toshi.com/Excellence/ (not sure if it will work though)

Under classes and then enrollment they have a printable coupon for beginners to try out a free trial class. So like everyone else has said before me, go and give it a go and make your mind up, at least it won't cost you anything.

Hope that helps


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## Strikes (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for the replies, I have seen the coupon as I have been trying pretty hard to research all the local places.  There just isn't very much to choose from, the best place I can find is a BJJ place that seems truly legitimate. I'm not sold on BJJ yet though.
http://westsidebjj.com/


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 6, 2013)

Westside BJJ actually looks quite good.  They're a Pedro Sauer affiliate, so they probably don't neglect the self-defense side of the art.  They have Muay Thai and MMA classes, so they have the stand-up covered.  I like the instructor's philosophy (check his blog to get an idea of his outlook).  The price is reasonable and the instructors seem to be fully qualified.  I would give it a try if I were you.


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## Strikes (Jun 6, 2013)

I probably will, it is the closest to my house and the instructor seems like he's very skilled and dedicated to the art.  I read a little bit of his book on Amazon (it has a few pages for a free look).  I just wonder how well BJJ is in a real threat fight, one person I'm sure it's good, but what about multiple attackers?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 6, 2013)

The best art for defending against multiple attackers is Nike-jutsu.  The good news is that you don't even need a dojo to train in it.


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## Strikes (Jun 6, 2013)

Haha, I am a pretty fast runner too!


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## Carol (Jun 6, 2013)

Welcome Strikes, and thanks for your service!

What troubles me a bit about the karate school's "leadership team" is, aside from their ages and eyebrow-raising ranks -- 'leadership team' is often a code word for a program that gets students to pay extra tuition to train as 'leaders', and many times they end up teaching class.  In other words, the student is paying to work.  That's a model that bothers me a bit -- and there are many schools out there that do such a thing.  There may be schools out there that do a great job with such a thing, but it makes my spidey sense tingle a bit.  Go in with your eyes open.

Another thing to watch for is who will teach the classes _you _will be taking.  Some schools advertise that they are headed up by a very high ranked dan who has been teaching for decades -- but Mr or Ms. High-Ranked-Dan hardly ever goes on the mat.

When you visit what's the reaction of the folks around you training?  Do they generally seem happy to be there?  Or do they seem bored/unhappy?  Does everyone seem to know what to do as the instructor moves from segment to segment, or does the class easily get lost or confused?  If you get a chance to get on the mat yourself, is your training partner reasonable to work with?  Or does s/he act like they would rather do anything but work with the a visitor? 

When you go to meet the teachers, be up front with your goals, and first ask them how they have helped others achieve that goal.  Once they tell you, ask them how they can help you achieve the same thing.  Its OK to have multiple goals too, such as self defense, fitness, concentration, etc.   If you have particular needs or concerns (example: do you want your training to help you when you are deployed?), bring this up in the beginning, too.

Ask about how much it costs -- including incidentals -- over the course of the year.   Does the school have clubs, in-house tournaments, workshops or seminars that would be an extra cost?  Are any of these required for you to advance?  If you get a hard sell for any of this, that can be a big red flag.  

Hope all goes well.  Good luck and I hope you keep posting about your journey!


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## Cyriacus (Jun 6, 2013)

"*As prerequisites for promotion to black belt more advanced Shin-Toshi forms must be learned.  An example is Shin-Kata, a trilogy of sequences which blend together as one form.  When performed skillfully, Shin-Kata is awesome to observe.  It contains complicated movements, the success of which depend on split-second timing and absolute concentration.  It is no wonder that very few Shin-Toshi students have been able to master this kata."

*So basically, if you want to learn self defense, go somewhere else. If you wanna learn complicated kata, go for it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 6, 2013)

Carol said:


> What troubles me a bit about the karate school's "leadership team" is, aside from their ages and eyebrow-raising ranks -- 'leadership team' is often a code word for a program that gets students to pay extra tuition to train as 'leaders', and many times they end up teaching class.  In other words, the student is paying to work.  That's a model that bothers me a bit -- and there are many schools out there that do such a thing.



Yeah, I teach some of the beginner classes at my gym, but I get my own training for free in exchange.  If a school is charging extra to the students who help teach, I would consider that a major rip-off.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 6, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, I teach some of the beginner classes at my gym, but I get my own training for free in exchange. If a school is charging extra to the students who help teach, I would consider that a major rip-off.



not to mention that it may actually violate some employment laws.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 6, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> "*As prerequisites for promotion to black belt more advanced Shin-Toshi forms must be learned. An example is Shin-Kata, a trilogy of sequences which blend together as one form. When performed skillfully, Shin-Kata is awesome to observe. It contains complicated movements, the success of which depend on split-second timing and absolute concentration. It is no wonder that very few Shin-Toshi students have been able to master this kata."
> 
> *So basically, if you want to learn self defense, go somewhere else. If you wanna learn complicated kata, go for it.




that does sound like performace kata, and not really valuable for skill development.


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## K-man (Jun 6, 2013)

Strikes said:


> I probably will, it is the closest to my house and the instructor seems like he's very skilled and dedicated to the art.  I read a little bit of his book on Amazon (it has a few pages for a free look).  I just wonder how well BJJ is in a real threat fight, one person I'm sure it's good, but what about multiple attackers?


Good choice. As *Tony* said they do Muay Thai as well so that will round you out for a real fight.  I wouldn't be concerned about multiple attackers. Firstly, how likely is it that you will be attacked by even one person, let alone a number. Secondly there are techniques you will learn that are common across the MAs that may help. Remember, the first part of self defence is not being there in the first place. And, finally, there aren't many places that effectively teach RBSD anyway.

The other thing is that the guy is a black belt.  I have a couple of black belt BJJ friends. The first one has just received his black belt after 10 years of solid training. The second is at the next level and is the teacher. A black belt in BJJ is really something that means a lot. 

Something else I liked was the teacher's blog. There are some good thoughts there, especially the one on being 'strong'. Anyway, good luck with your choice. You are about to embark on an exciting journey. 

The only thing I don't like is that they seem to be making you sign to contract or pay 50% more. Personally, that would stop me training there as I refuse to do that for anyone except the bank. However, from first hand experience, some things are negotiable if you ask nicely.
:asian:


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## Strikes (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for all the insight everyone!  I love this forum :inlove: I like how helpful you all are in dealing with my newb self 

I think I'm going to try out the BJJ as it is very close and I like the training times as well.  I may see if he has a military discount or something too.

Thanks,
Quinn


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## K-man (Jun 6, 2013)

Strikes said:


> Thanks for all the insight everyone!  I love this forum :inlove: I like how helpful you all are in dealing with my newb self
> 
> I think I'm going to try out the BJJ as it is very close and I like the training times as well.  I may see if he has a military discount or something too.
> 
> ...


Don't forget to let us know how you get on.  :asian:


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## Strikes (Jun 6, 2013)

I will remain here, loved this forum since I found it. Just never really had anything to post because I didn't practice anything.


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## Manny (Jun 7, 2013)

Strikes said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I made a post in the beginner forum but it isn't getting any attention.  I would like to train in Karate, but there are not many options near me, so I would like to see what you all think about this school that is fairly local.
> 
> ...



Just my two mexican cents. TKD can be as efective as Karate, besides sport TKD has many things like karate, for example we have poomsae (kata), we have ones stpes (ipon kumite) three steps, sparring (full contact in WTS Style dojangs) self defense, sweeps,throws,arm bars,etc.

Sport side it's not TKD only, in fact karate also has is sport side as judo does, as wusshu does,etc.etc.

Manny


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## Rey316 (Sep 15, 2019)

Strikes said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I made a post in the beginner forum but it isn't getting any attention.  I would like to train in Karate, but there are not many options near me, so I would like to see what you all think about this school that is fairly local.
> 
> ...


Before l joined the Army as a Combat Medic l looked around the Dallas and Denton area in Texas. After an exhaustive search l founded Mr. MICKY FISHER & SHIN TOSHI KARATE to be one of the BEST.Bar none! Even though I was afraid to get hurt l accepted that it was a contract sport. You are gonna get hit and it's gonna hurt. Yet l knew to be the best you have to learn from the best...and Mr. Fisher was the best! After studying Shin Toshi karate for several months before going into the military l learned that l made the best decision of choices in martial arts schools. I went around the whole Dallas and Denton schools including Arlington.  I went into the military as a Combat Medic and earned my way up into the elite Special Forces.  In these military units almost all the soldiers are Black Belts in one style or another. So we trained and mixed our styles however Shin Toshi and Kenpo karate always sermed to best the other styles for the simple reason...we took from every style and used it. Shin Toshi karate was known as the " BASTARD" karate because it did NOT stick to any style. All styles has a strong and a weakness. I helped train 2 young boys before retiring from teaching. Those 2 boys became State and International Fighting Champions! Not just for one year but for several. To this day...they are still champions. Well known and respected in the Austin area. So all this negative information about Shin Toshi karate is just people talking and blowing smoke up your ***. Try it and see for yourself. Don't let others talk or scare you away from any style because any style is better than none.

RG
Frisco, TX


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## Rey316 (Sep 15, 2019)

Mauthos said:


> If you follow the link in the website you posted to their mainpage (covering all their schools not just the one you are interested in)
> 
> Here it is for ease of use: Karate Shin-Toshi: UKI Schools (not sure if it will work though)
> 
> ...


Good advice without trashing like the others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> Before l joined the Army as a Combat Medic l looked around the Dallas and Denton area in Texas. After an exhaustive search l founded Mr. MICKY FISHER & SHIN TOSHI KARATE to be one of the BEST.Bar none! Even though I was afraid to get hurt l accepted that it was a contract sport. You are gonna get hit and it's gonna hurt. Yet l knew to be the best you have to learn from the best...and Mr. Fisher was the best! After studying Shin Toshi karate for several months before going into the military l learned that l made the best decision of choices in martial arts schools. I went around the whole Dallas and Denton schools including Arlington.  I went into the military as a Combat Medic and earned my way up into the elite Special Forces.  In these military units almost all the soldiers are Black Belts in one style or another. So we trained and mixed our styles however Shin Toshi and Kenpo karate always sermed to best the other styles for the simple reason...we took from every style and used it. Shin Toshi karate was known as the " BASTARD" karate because it did NOT stick to any style. All styles has a strong and a weakness. I helped train 2 young boys before retiring from teaching. Those 2 boys became State and International Fighting Champions! Not just for one year but for several. To this day...they are still champions. Well known and respected in the Austin area. So all this negative information about Shin Toshi karate is just people talking and blowing smoke up your ***. Try it and see for yourself. Don't let others talk or scare you away from any style because any style is better than none.
> 
> RG
> Frisco, TX


Given the last post in this thread was over 6 years ago, I'm not sure how many of the posters will still be active for you to argue with.


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## pdg (Sep 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Given the last post in this thread was over 6 years ago, I'm not sure how many of the posters will still be active for you to argue with.



I can provide an argument service for a very reasonable hourly rate.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2019)

pdg said:


> I can provide an argument service for a very reasonable hourly rate.


How very accommodating of you.


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## pdg (Sep 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> How very accommodating of you.



Well y'know, it's good to contribute.


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## pdg (Sep 15, 2019)




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## hoshin1600 (Sep 15, 2019)

This thread "got" me for a few posts before I realized how old it was.
However I have concerns about posts from people who say their art is the best based on how great they are.
Also "taking stuff" from other arts is not a logical argument for competence or functionality.
Just sayin


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 15, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> the elite Special Forces.



Which Special Forces would those be?


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## JR 137 (Sep 15, 2019)

pdg said:


> I can provide an argument service for a very reasonable hourly rate.


I nominate this for post of the year.


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## Rey316 (Sep 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Given the last post in this thread was over 6 years ago, I'm not sure how many of the posters will still be active for you to argue with.


My hope was to educate and inform. Not argue over this.  Anyone should go and look for themselves and not take their word for it.
By the way...l am NOT a WHITE BELT but a 3rd degree Black Belt. Even though l am ONLY a 3rd degree is because l refused to be GIVEN a higher degree and not EARNED. Many of my fellow black belts will tell you this. I am not ashame but believe in the old ways of earning it. And in my eyes at the time l didn't believe l was worthy enough.  My mistake for l was not wise enough and should have listen to my martial arts instructors at the time.


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## Rey316 (Sep 16, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Which Special Forces would those be?


5th Group U. S. Army.


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## Rey316 (Sep 16, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> This thread "got" me for a few posts before I realized how old it was.
> However I have concerns about posts from people who say their art is the best based on how great they are.
> Also "taking stuff" from other arts is not a logical argument for competence or functionality.
> Just sayin




Sir,
The late great BRUCE LEE did the same. The results speaks for themselves.


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## Rey316 (Sep 16, 2019)

pdg said:


>



LOL...This is a great one!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> My hope was to educate and inform. Not argue over this.  Anyone should go and look for themselves and not take their word for it.
> By the way...l am NOT a WHITE BELT but a 3rd degree Black Belt. Even though l am ONLY a 3rd degree is because l refused to be GIVEN a higher degree and not EARNED. Many of my fellow black belts will tell you this. I am not ashame but believe in the old ways of earning it. And in my eyes at the time l didn't believe l was worthy enough.  My mistake for l was not wise enough and should have listen to my martial arts instructors at the time.


The "white belt" is your rank on MartialTalk. It has nothing to do with martial skill, and everything to do with the number of posts you've made here. It's entirely meaningless, except to those of us who seem to have no life, and manage to reach the dizzying heights of MartialTalk Senior Grandmaster. Then all must bow before us. (Unfortunately, "all" doesn't seem to know that bit of etiquette. How rude.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> Sir,
> The late great BRUCE LEE did the same. The results speaks for themselves.


Yes, and it was foolish for him to do, too.


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## JR 137 (Sep 17, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> Sir,
> The late great BRUCE LEE did the same. The results speaks for themselves.


Not trying to start an argument in any way, but the “Bruce Lee combined arts” line of thinking gets old. Sure he did, and sure he did a great job of it. In fact, every art started as things taken from various sources and combined into a system. 

But a simple, logical fact in that line of thinking remains: Bruce Lee wasn’t an ordinary guy. He wasn’t the norm. He deeply understood why he was pulling what he pulled from each art and how it fit together. That’s no easy task. When people say “Bruce Lee did it, so so can I,” my simple reply is “when you’ve got the skill and knowledge level of Bruce Lee, then I’ll take that argument seriously.” It reminds me of a delusional soccer player I used to treat. He tore his ACL and was told the entire process would take 9-12 months of rehab before he was back 100%. Before surgery, he told me “Jerry Rice was playing 3 weeks after he tore his.” My reply was “when you’re 1/10th the athlete Jerry Rice is, we’ll talk. Until we cross that imaginary bridge, it’ll take you 9-12 months.” He found a surgeon to repair his ACL and clear him months after surgery. He re-tore it 2 weeks after being cleared. He was no Jerry Rice. And Jerry Rice played without surgery, then ended up getting it a few weeks later because he had so many problems. 

Moral of the story is just because an ultra-elite guy pulled from several different systems doesn’t mean everyone else can not should.


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## Rey316 (Sep 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The "white belt" is your rank on MartialTalk. It has nothing to do with martial skill, and everything to do with the number of posts you've made here. It's entirely meaningless, except to those of us who seem to have no life, and manage to reach the dizzying heights of MartialTalk Senior Grandmaster. Then all must bow before us. (Unfortunately, "all" doesn't seem to know that bit of etiquette. How rude.)


LOL. I thank you Sir for all that you have done to inform and educate the public and also us martial arts instructors.  God bless.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 17, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> 5th Group U. S. Army.


Interesting.


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## Rey316 (Sep 17, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Interesting.


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## Rey316 (Sep 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, and it was foolish for him to do, too.


Why foolish? He proved that by mixing martial arts styles offered the most survival chances. In war and in the streets you don't get second chances.  Survival of the fittest.


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## Rey316 (Sep 20, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Not trying to start an argument in any way, but the “Bruce Lee combined arts” line of thinking gets old. Sure he did, and sure he did a great job of it. In fact, every art started as things taken from various sources and combined into a system.
> 
> But a simple, logical fact in that line of thinking remains: Bruce Lee wasn’t an ordinary guy. He wasn’t the norm. He deeply understood why he was pulling what he pulled from each art and how it fit together. That’s no easy task. When people say “Bruce Lee did it, so so can I,” my simple reply is “when you’ve got the skill and knowledge level of Bruce Lee, then I’ll take that argument seriously.” It reminds me of a delusional soccer player I used to treat. He tore his ACL and was told the entire process would take 9-12 months of rehab before he was back 100%. Before surgery, he told me “Jerry Rice was playing 3 weeks after he tore his.” My reply was “when you’re 1/10th the athlete Jerry Rice is, we’ll talk. Until we cross that imaginary bridge, it’ll take you 9-12 months.” He found a surgeon to repair his ACL and clear him months after surgery. He re-tore it 2 weeks after being cleared. He was no Jerry Rice. And Jerry Rice played without surgery, then ended up getting it a few weeks later because he had so many problems.
> 
> Moral of the story is just because an ultra-elite guy pulled from several different systems doesn’t mean everyone else can not should.


You made a good point however l never claimed to be like Bruce Lee. Just pointed out the fact that after several years of training with elite soldiers you learn what  works and what doesn't.  No matter the styles.  Common sense would tell you if you're ready to get back into training or fighting.  Some of us don't seem to have that lol.


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## Rey316 (Sep 20, 2019)

Zero said:


> Gosh, maybe I am a cynic today but even that suggested ACTKenpo club's link made me wince, photos are never good to go by I guess but the first one on the home page of the guy throwing a punch with his eyes closed didn't exactly inspire confidence, none of the higher ranks seemed confident with or comfortable in their punches/strikes in the photos.  It may still be a good no-nonsense club though and worth checking out, I may be totally wrong...
> 
> The other clubs I checked out online in your area seemed to be quite kid orientated or had "black belt assurance" accolades which always gives off a strong conveyor belt / McDojo whiff.  If there is no one on the base you can train with then just head down and check them all out I guess, see if you can spend a couple (at least one) free sessions at each one to get a feel for what seems right for you.



I agree with that if you are punching with your eyes close then you are doing it wrong no matter the style.  I have been to many martial arts schools and see that a lot. So it's not the styles but the person. I am sure you did a punch the wrong way at one time or another.  I have too but that doesn't mean that the school is bad just that l did it wrong at that time. We learn from our mistakes.  Life is to short to bash on other schools. Are we not brothers and sisters in martial arts?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2019)

Rey316 said:


> Why foolish? He proved that by mixing martial arts styles offered the most survival chances. In war and in the streets you don't get second chances.  Survival of the fittest.


He proved that his mix worked well. I'm not sure where you get enough data to claim "most survival chances". 
"Best art" claims are unnecessary and useless hyperbole in every case I've ever seen. They usually lead to some folks getting an overblown sense of confidence in what they do, which is counter to the goal of developing people who can fight/defend themselves.


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