# Garn Sau vs kick ,misconceptions



## mook jong man (May 5, 2011)

I often hear people say that using a Garn Sau against a roundhouse kick will get your arms broken , I would have to say that is a load of *****.

Doing a *poorly executed* Garn Sau will get your arms broken , the same as doing anything else wrong in Wing Chun will result in injury.
I am the first to admit that learning to do the Garn Sau against the full force of a round house kick in the early stages of training can be quite painful and difficult.

I used to go home with golf ball sized bruises up my forearms until I learned to do it properly which probably took about a year for me to perfect the movement.
A properly executed Garn Sau results in injury to the kicker as the Garn Sau shears across  the leg of the kicker in a cutting movement , one of my old instructors would actually put a nasty red stripe on peoples legs even through several sets of leg pads . 

To do the technique properly some things have to be in order.
*TIMING* - The pivot must be timed perfectly to coincide when your arm forearm is just about to make contact with his leg and then you pivot , too early or to late will result in a clash.

*RELAX * - People tend to get frightened because a leg is hurtling at them , and instinctively tense up there arms in an effort to stop the kick. This is the worst thing you can do , your arms have lost the ability to absorb impact and it is just like two blocks of wood hitting each other .

*ANGLE * - Have your arms at the correct angles so that they do not collapse under the  impact.

*SPREAD THE FORCE* - Spread the force of the impact along your whole forearm , intercept the leg with the edge of your hand near the wrist and simultaneously pivot your body , drive the upper Garn Sau upwards from your shoulder while rotating your forearm to a diagonal position ,  DON'T ROTATE IT ALL THE WAY ROUND SO THAT YOUR PALM IS FACING YOU THAT IS A WEAK STRUCTURE AND LIABLE TO COLLAPSE.
Don't forget to bring the lower Garn Sau down to waist level so that your are protected from head to waist

*STANCE* - Sink your weight , I am a small man and I remember a very long time ago I got a rather giant of a man to try and kick my head off.
This guy was huge , legs like the  proverbial tree trunks.
Anyway so he kicked and my execution was perfect , I was able to spread the force of the impact over my arms , no collapse of angles , no pain.
But because my stance wasn't quite up to scratch , the force of the kick had actually moved me bodily  sideways about half a foot.

The only issue I have with the Garn Sau is that it can be quite passive in the sense that you have to wait for the leg to get to you to before you start your technique
So I actually prefer the technique where you pair the Garn Sau with a  simultaneously  medium thrusting heel kick and use the Garn Sau as a secondary guard.

But for those moments where you need a lot of coverage and a kick is flying at you from nowhere then the Garn Sau is just what the doctor ordered , not to mention that there is a lot of nasty throws etc that can be executed from the Garn Sau.


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## tenzen (May 6, 2011)

The possibility of having your arm broken by a person who can actually apply the round kick right is high. But its not probable. You most likely will not face this sort of attack in the street, and if you plan on competing in mma your probably not going to face anyone with a good enough round kick for that to happen.
I have spennt my life practicing many many martial arts to the fullest, one of them being pradal serey. Pradal serey is the cambodian equivalent to muay thai and we use very very punishing kicks and they will break your arms. But and this is a big but, in the street we would not use this especially at a level to where you would block it with your arms. It would be low and you would have to use your legs to block it, chi gerk. So broken arm possible yes, actually going to happen I would bet not. Most of your encounters won't be with a highly trained kicker or fighter for that matter. So with that said and the conditioning your arms get in wc its not gonna happen. So if in the event a round kick comes at you would garn sau be ideal to use? Yes, there are numerous counters from there that will be fight ending counters if applied right. 
Good post mook this is a topic that comes up a lot. Thanks


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## cwk (May 6, 2011)

Just been teaching how to do this tonight, Ive never had any problems with using gaan against high round kicks. I tend to teach people to step in to their opponent though using the elbow and lower forearm of the high gaan arm to dig into the thigh of the kicking leg.
All the power in a round kick is from the knee down, take it out high up and there's nothing to worry about.


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## mook jong man (May 6, 2011)

The Garn Sau shouldn't be the first choice , your first choice should be to kick straight along the centreline at the first hint of a kick coming your way , so that the attack has been thwarted whilst in its early phase.
Exactly the same as we would use our centreline punch to counter any punching attack taking a circular path.

But having said that , with the way the flinch response works in humans the arms are usually the first things to go up in an effort to defend against the perceived threat. 

 Naturally in Wing Chun with the hands being a lot faster and coordinated than the legs , it will probably be the arms that will be best able to rapidly move to and  cover the sector that is being attacked

Garn Sau would be what I would call a "Late Phase Technique" where it has been a surprise attack or the intention of the attack has otherwise been picked up at a very late stage.
Not the first choice by any means , and you absolutely do not try to use it for anything lower than I would say belly button height.

The reason being that the lower part of the Garn Sau would have to drop down and become closer to the body making it weak or worse have the elbow sticking out which there is a risk of the kick coming underneath the funny bone and almost ripping your arm off , which I have seen happen.

Just keep it in the position it was intended for , to cover the whole upper body from head to ribcage.
Anything lower than that your going to have to use your legs to deal with .


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## cwk (May 6, 2011)

If I see a round kick coming early enough, I like to slide into their centre crouched in a low stance with po pai jeung. The low palm goes to grab the balls, the high one goes for the throat, trapping any guarding hand on the way in. from there a sweep to the standing leg at the same time as pulling up on crown jewels and pushing on the throat, nasty and effective.


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## mook jong man (May 6, 2011)

cwk said:


> Just been teaching how to do this tonight, Ive never had any problems with using gaan against high round kicks. I tend to teach people to step in to their opponent though using the elbow and lower forearm of the high gaan arm to dig into the thigh of the kicking leg.
> All the power in a round kick is from the knee down, take it out high up and there's nothing to worry about.



Try it with a pivot mate , it's magic.
Just pivot as the kick is coming in , then as you pivot back to face him step in with a Tan Sau and punch to break the guard , the action of pivoting back gives the impetus to to your Tan Sau and punch.

Next chance I get I am going to try your method as well .
Would I be correct in assuming that you would be what we would call "Planing" as you step in ?
By that I mean stepping directly in a straight line but simultaneously orientating your body so that it is angled.


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## cwk (May 6, 2011)

RElaning.
That's correct. Take a big step into the centre and go for it, no second guessing.
I'll give your way a try tomorrow too mate, cheers.


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## izeqb (May 6, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I often hear people say that using a Garn Sau against a roundhouse kick will get your arms broken , I would have to say that is a load of *****.
> 
> Doing a *poorly executed* Garn Sau will get your arms broken , the same as doing anything else wrong in Wing Chun will result in injury.
> I am the first to admit that learning to do the Garn Sau against the full force of a round house kick in the early stages of training can be quite painful and difficult.
> ...



Niiiiice post Mook...

I actually trained the "scissors-gan/-garn" technique against roundhouse kicks just the other day... and I 've "golfballs" on my forearms 

Could you explain the difference bewteen using scissor garn-sau and bong-sau / garn-sau (when the right arm is lower vs his right kick, for example)... I'd appriciate your thoughts on why, when and how


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## izeqb (May 6, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Niiiiice post Mook...
> 
> I actually trained the "scissors-gan/-garn" technique against roundhouse kicks just the other day... and I 've "golfballs" on my forearms
> 
> Could you explain the difference bewteen using scissor garn-sau and bong-sau / garn-sau (when the right arm is lower vs his right kick, for example)... I'd appriciate your thoughts on why, when and how



BTW.

I often add a low side-kick against his knee, when performing this technique against a roundhouse kick... it also help me remember to pivot/turn...


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## tenzen (May 6, 2011)

Cwk all the power in a proper round kick is from a full body rotation yes it is concentrated at the lower portion of the leg but that's not where it comes from. Most people who use this kick throw it from the hip which makes the kick weak because it relies solely on muscle strength. When done properly the weight of the body speed and rotational force make the power and it is a dangerous kick. But onece again this is a big but, most people don't understand how to do this and they just throw their leg up using their hip flexors. In that sense this is a weak kick. When done right this is a very damaging kick. Also other things can factor in likethe angle in which the kick is delivered, is it coming up across or down ina cutting motion. If it comes down in a cutting motion it is hard to deflect and if it lands depending on where it lands can cause a lot of damage and end in a bad way. Ie to the side of the neck or down on the collar bone in which case it will break your collar bone. And a shot to the side of the neck as we all. Know means a little nap.


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## cwk (May 7, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Cwk all the power in a proper round kick is from a full body rotation yes it is concentrated at the lower portion of the leg but that's not where it comes from. Most people who use this kick throw it from the hip which makes the kick weak because it relies solely on muscle strength. When done properly the weight of the body speed and rotational force make the power and it is a dangerous kick. But onece again this is a big but, most people don't understand how to do this and they just throw their leg up using their hip flexors. In that sense this is a weak kick. When done right this is a very damaging kick. Also other things can factor in likethe angle in which the kick is delivered, is it coming up across or down ina cutting motion. If it comes down in a cutting motion it is hard to deflect and if it lands depending on where it lands can cause a lot of damage and end in a bad way. Ie to the side of the neck or down on the collar bone in which case it will break your collar bone. And a shot to the side of the neck as we all. Know means a little nap.



Just bad wording on my part. I meant the force is focused in the lower part of the leg, not that that is where the power comes from. I've lived in Thailand for nearly 7 years and I did some training at a Muay Thai gym when I first came out here so I know how to throw a round kick ( I left when I figured out they were ripping me off with fees because I was the only westerner and I realized only one of the coaches showed any interest in training me properly, shame really).
Your right about the angle of the kick making things more difficult but if you see it coming early and move inside it, it takes a lot of the danger away.


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## cwk (May 7, 2011)

By the way Mook,
I gave your way a try this morning and liked it. I'd done the pivoting before but always tried to grab the leg and take down the opponent from it. The stepping in to strike with the turning momentum worked nicely. I used shield breaking hand ( por pai sao ) with phoenix eye fist formation instead of tan da but it's pretty much the same thing.


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2011)

cwk said:


> By the way Mook,
> I gave your way a try this morning and liked it. I'd done the pivoting before but always tried to grab the leg and take down the opponent from it. The stepping in to strike with the turning momentum worked nicely. I used shield breaking hand ( por pai sao ) with phoenix eye fist formation instead of tan da but it's pretty much the same thing.



Would I give you a bum steer mate ? 
Glad it's working for you , another method you can try is when your pivoting on the way back use that returning momentum to fire off a hook kick at his support leg , slam your shin into his soft inner thigh which should be all nice and stretched out for you as his other leg is still up in the air.


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Niiiiice post Mook...
> 
> I actually trained the "scissors-gan/-garn" technique against roundhouse kicks just the other day... and I 've "golfballs" on my forearms
> 
> Could you explain the difference bewteen using scissor garn-sau and bong-sau / garn-sau (when the right arm is lower vs his right kick, for example)... I'd appriciate your thoughts on why, when and how



Sorry mate I'm not quite following what you mean , what lineage are you from?

It would probably be better to get some clarification from someone in your system.
But I'll have a crack anyway , I think what you are talking about is using a Garn Sau with what we would call a Wing Chun sidekick , where the body pivots 45 degrees and does a low stamp kick.
In our lineage we use a two arm deflection called Seung Bong with that kick , If I am picturing what you are doing correctly then what you are doing is just extending the defencive area down to your pelvis with a low Bong Sau

The probable reason for this is that Garn Sau is meant to be used in an upright position with the axis in the middle of the body , but if you are pivoting 45 deg and doing a low side kick then the axis has now shifted as the weight is transfered to one leg , which could open up a defencive hole in your Garn Sau as the way the Garn Sau is orientated to the attacker is  now slightly changed.

So by putting a low Bong there you are just plugging a gap in the defence , It's not going to stop a full power kick , but that is not the function , it is just a secondary precaution.
Your primary defence is your kick which will stop his body rotating and generating power , which means that any force still coming in from his kick that makes it to your arms will be greatly reduced in power as to be negligible.

I hope that's what you mean't , otherwise I have just wasted my time and yours. 

Maybe people from your lineage will know exactly what you are talking about and have a better explanation.


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2011)

cwk said:


> Just bad wording on my part. I meant the force is focused in the lower part of the leg, not that that is where the power comes from. I've lived in Thailand for nearly 7 years and I did some training at a Muay Thai gym when I first came out here so I know how to throw a round kick ( I left when I figured out they were ripping me off with fees because I was the only westerner and I realized only one of the coaches showed any interest in training me properly, shame really).
> Your right about the angle of the kick making things more difficult but if you see it coming early and move inside it, it takes a lot of the danger away.



Sounds like a case of lets see how much baht we can get out of this Farang because all Farang's are rich.

Reminds me of when one of my mates went to Bali or it could even have been Thailand.  He's a big fat bloke and he said that all the street hawkers followed him around because they thought that because he was fat he must be rich. :lfao:


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## tenzen (May 7, 2011)

Sadly that thing happens in thailand. If they see they can make money they will. If you would have crossed the border into cambodia training would have cost you about 5 bucks american for the whole month and the instruction would have been far better. Also in cambodia they have more focus on elbows than the thais and the old systems are still alive and functional, actually some brutal techniques.


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## cwk (May 7, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Sounds like a case of lets see how much baht we can get out of this Farang because all Farang's are rich.
> 
> Reminds me of when one of my mates went to Bali or it could even have been Thailand.  He's a big fat bloke and he said that all the street hawkers followed him around because they thought that because he was fat he must be rich. :lfao:



LOL! Yeah it was definitely a case of that mate. I was fresh to Thailand and didn't speak any of the lingo so I guess I was an obvious target for some fleecing. These days I know about a hundred different ways to tell them "where to go" if i even think they're trying it on.


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## cwk (May 7, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Sadly that thing happens in thailand. If they see they can make money they will. If you would have crossed the border into cambodia training would have cost you about 5 bucks american for the whole month and the instruction would have been far better. Also in cambodia they have more focus on elbows than the thais and the old systems are still alive and functional, actually some brutal techniques.



How long did you stay in Cambodia? Did you visit Angkor Wat while you were there?
my friend made the mistake of paying a one dollar fare with a 20 dollar note. They gave him his change in cambodian currency, about 3 plastic bags full of worthless money lol. He's got a great photo of it all spread out on his bed at the hotel.


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## izeqb (May 7, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Sorry mate I'm not quite following what you mean , what lineage are you from?
> 
> It would probably be better to get some clarification from someone in your system.



Sure... but I'm a Wing Chun Geek and I grab every oppertunity there is to discuss and learn more about the system 

I'm originally from the Leung Ting Linage, but now I'm studying under a Sifu who's more from the Wong Sheung Ling Linage... So, I guess that means the Ip Man Linage, hehe 




mook jong man said:


> But I'll have a crack anyway , I think what you are talking about is using a Garn Sau with what we would call a Wing Chun sidekick , where the body pivots 45 degrees and does a low stamp kick.
> In our lineage we use a two arm deflection called Seung Bong with that kick , If I am picturing what you are doing correctly then what you are doing is just extending the defencive area down to your pelvis with a low Bong Sau



As I see it, you can basically have either the right or the left hand below the other and therefore, you could be forced to use *your right hand as an bong-sau* and your right as a tan or gan, against *his right-leg kick*.

If that's the case, then you cannot make the Garn (cutting arm?) motion with both arms... And you'd be forced to absorb the strength from the kick and turn... all while you're doing a low side kick against his knee or thigh.

But... you could also have the left arm do the gansau (maybe more a gwat-sau) motion, if the left arm were below your right arm... Does that make sense?



mook jong man said:


> The probable reason for this is that Garn Sau is meant to be used in an upright position with the axis in the middle of the body , but if you are pivoting 45 deg and doing a low side kick then the axis has now shifted as the weight is transfered to one leg , which could open up a defencive hole in your Garn Sau as the way the Garn Sau is orientated to the attacker is  now slightly changed.
> 
> So by putting a low Bong there you are just plugging a gap in the defence , It's not going to stop a full power kick , but that is not the function , it is just a secondary precaution.
> Your primary defence is your kick which will stop his body rotating and generating power , which means that any force still coming in from his kick that makes it to your arms will be greatly reduced in power as to be negligible.



This is a double garn-sau, agree? Low and high... or...?








mook jong man said:


> I hope that's what you mean't , otherwise I have just wasted my time and yours.
> 
> Maybe people from your lineage will know exactly what you are talking about and have a better explanation.



You haven't wasted anyone's time... Not at all 
Thanks for the detailed reply.


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Sure... but I'm a Wing Chun Geek and I grab every oppertunity there is to discuss and learn more about the system
> 
> I'm originally from the Leung Ting Linage, but now I'm studying under a Sifu who's more from the Wong Sheung Ling Linage... So, I guess that means the Ip Man Linage, hehe
> 
> ...



That certainly is a Double Garn Sau.


Is what you are talking about similar to this picture here mate.


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## tenzen (May 7, 2011)

Yeah your friend messed up there. Their money is pretty much worthless. I have been to angkor wat, it is huge and the energy there is amazing. We actually went there for training. I have been a few times but the last time I was supposed to go my trip was cancelled. I plan to go back in a few years because I want to bring my kids but I want them to be old enough to remember it. Parts are very beautiful but they are very poor.


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## izeqb (May 7, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That certainly is a Double Garn Sau.
> 
> 
> Is what you are talking about similar to this picture here mate.



Yes... That's excactly what I'm talking about... How did you find that 
In that picture, is the upper hand still a garn-sau?

EDIT:

I'd probably turn a little more, to allow the bongsau to do what it's best at: redirecting the force...


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## wtxs (May 7, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Niiiiice post Mook...
> 
> I actually trained the "scissors-gan/-garn" technique against roundhouse kicks just the other day... and I 've "golfballs" on my forearms
> 
> Could you explain the difference bewteen using scissor garn-sau and bong-sau / garn-sau (when the right arm is lower vs his right kick, for example)... I'd appriciate your thoughts on why, when and how



This is only my take, the difference is in the gap/positioning of the two forearms and the ways they are used to intercept, the scissors is liken the crossing butterfly knives initial "capturing" of the long pole before sliding forward and cutting.

Your upper 'scissor' forearm added support to the lower to handle the kicking force, those big goose eggs on your arms are from direct impact, pivoting garn sao (done correctly) minimize the impact angle.  What Mr Mook referring to is the way you could intercept the kick without taking on full power of the kick, some call it the cutting angle ... receives what comes, WC don't block.

Both variation of garn sao can be use, just remember it's not an one-stop technique, it's to get you into the position to setup counter attack.  Depending on which arm or body position you use, example - the pivoting high right/low left garn sao vs right round house, the lower garn sao can turn into huen sao to capturing the kicking leg (can also be use to uprooting the attacker), while the upper garn turn into an lan sao for an cut/chop to the neck/face/head, or an back fist ... and don't forget to add a low leg kick or stomp of your own.


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## wtxs (May 7, 2011)

izeqb said:


> *I'd probably turn a little more*, to allow the bongsau to do what it's best at: redirecting the force...



That would be an pivoting garn sao technique ... an different application to what is demo.

Good observation my friend ... now let the learning process continues.


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Yes... That's excactly what I'm talking about... How did you find that
> In that picture, is the upper hand still a garn-sau?
> 
> EDIT:
> ...



That is my late Sifu , and that arm formation is what we call Seung Bong or Double Bong Sau.
It is not a Garn Sau , but is quite capable of redirecting heavy force as the impact is spread over both the forearms at once whereas with a Garn Sau if the incoming kick is directed at the head the upper Garn Sau will bear the brunt of the impact.

Both moves have their plusses and minuses , Garn Sau protects a larger area , whilst Seung Bong is more structurally sound in my opinion , but the downside is the area it covers is smaller , its used when we have a pretty good idea of where the incoming kick is directed to.
The upper arm is in what we call Dai Sau , probably best described as halfway between a Tan Sau and a Bong Sau.

I believe trying to do a Garn Sau with the wrong arm  would probably result in a broken arm , I would have to give it a try , but I think it would drastically change the mechanics of how the deflection works and would see you absorbing a lot of force into your arm and shoulder.

Wtx is spot on about the Seung Bong , it is seen in the knife form , as well as a few other places too.


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## Nabakatsu (May 8, 2011)

I went to Angkor Wat when I was in Cambodia when I was about 11. I remember it quite well, went to a lot of ruins there. I may be going back soon, sounds like training would be worthwhile out there. Cheers!


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## cwk (May 8, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> I went to Angkor Wat when I was in Cambodia when I was about 11. I remember it quite well, went to a lot of ruins there. I may be going back soon, sounds like training would be worthwhile out there. Cheers!



If your ever over in south east asia mate, you'd be welcome to come down to the south of Thailand for some training with me.


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## tenzen (May 8, 2011)

Cwk are you teaching wc in thailand? And if so how is that going for you. I had a friend tell me that due to their great love for muay thai that most foreign arts have a hard time there.


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## mook jong man (May 8, 2011)

cwk said:


> If your ever over in south east asia mate, you'd be welcome to come down to the south of Thailand for some training with me.



Hey cwk make sure you charge him a crap load for a lesson , because all Farang's are rich, especially those American Farang's :boing1:


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## Nabakatsu (May 8, 2011)

Stop revealing my cache of vast riches to the 3rd world mook, sheesh


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## cwk (May 9, 2011)

tenzen said:


> Cwk are you teaching wc in thailand? And if so how is that going for you. I had a friend tell me that due to their great love for muay thai that most foreign arts have a hard time there.



It's not my profession but I teach a couple of small groups in my spare time. Actually foreign arts do quite well here, especially taekwondo. Usually it's the wealthier Thais (a lot of them of Chinese origin) that study foreign arts and the poorer people tend to do Muay Thai. Obviously this is a blanket statement and only backed up from what I've observed personally so don't take it as gospel.


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## cwk (May 9, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Hey cwk make sure you charge him a crap load for a lesson , because all Farang's are rich, especially those American Farang's :boing1:



LOL.
When I first met my missus, one of her neighbours asked her if I was rich. When she told that I wasn't, her neighbours reply was "Yes he is. They all are. he's just pretending not to be to test you". LMFAO! It's become a little joke between us now. Whenever there's a ferrari or a mansion on t.v my missus asks me when I'm going to stop pretending and buy one.


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

That's cool man. And it is usually but not always the poorer people that fight so they can make a better life for their families.
And since your the bill gates of thailand how about a ferrari or two shipped to your good buddies here on the forums. Lol. 
That's great I need to move there so people think I'm rich.


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## yak sao (May 9, 2011)

tenzen said:


> That's cool man. And it is usually but not always the poorer people that fight so they can make a better life for their families.
> And since your the bill gates of thailand how about a ferrari or two shipped to your good buddies here on the forums. Lol.
> That's great I need to move there so people think I'm rich.


 

A Ferrari would be nice, but I'm a simple man, paying off my mortgage would suit me just fine.


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## tenzen (May 9, 2011)

My house and vehicle are paid off already so I'm aiming high.


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