# Scumbag Tries To Apologize



## MA-Caver (Mar 27, 2012)

Hey scumbag! No matter how many times you'll say "I'm sorry for what I've done" it'll *NEVER* be enough! You can be castrated and it won't be enough, you can rot in jail for the rest of your life and it won't be enough to pay for what you've done. Even one victim is too many! 


> UTAH STATE PRISON &#8212; One of Ogden's most  notorious serial rapists apologized Tuesday to the eight teen girls and  adult women he raped 15 years ago.
> 
> 
> "I am so sorry for the pain and torment I put you through," Jason  Brett Higgins said, calling his actions "cowardly, disgusting and  violent."
> ...



Just can't do it. Apologies for ruining 8 lives that way... nope!



> A psychosexual  evaluation conducted for the hearing concluded that Higgins' risk to  re-offend had decreased since his conviction, but it was still high  enough that he would likely commit another offense if he were released  today, Blanchard said.



I used to work for one of the companies/agencies that did psychosexual evaluations on offenders. They're correct that it's not a 100% guarantee against re-offending. Each offender has a set of triggers and they number and vary so widely that it's impossible to prevent one of (the triggers) from appearing and starting the cycle all over again. 



> Higgins, 39, cried as  Blanchard gave a brief summary of all of the attacks. He described how  Higgins, typically after he got off work or early in the morning, would  spot females walking or jogging alone, wait until they were in an area  with no one else around, and then grabbed them from behind and raped  them. In some cases he punched his victims in the mouth before raping  them and in others he threatened to harm them if they shouted.


Lying in wait like a predatory animal for it's prey. 



> At  the conclusion of the hearing, Higgins read a prepared statement, which  included a list of apologies to many people, including his victims, his  family and the Ogden community. He said that when he uses the words,  "I'm sorry," "I've never meant them more in my life."
> 
> 
> "I would do anything to take back what I've done," he said. "From the depths of my soul I'm sorry."


 That's the trouble with Rape... you cannot take it back.   


> After Mills and her family left the room, Higgins broke down and  cried harder. He then turned to address a group of his family members,  including his father, mother and grandparents, who were also at the  hearing.
> 
> 
> "I'm sorry you had to listen to that," he told them before waving goodbye.


 Again he's sorry. Pretty comfortable with that word eh?   


> Blanchard will now give his report to the full Board of Pardons  and Parole which will make a decision on whether to grant a parole date  or another status hearing.


 Don't grant it. He doesn't deserve it.


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## Jenna (Mar 27, 2012)

I am the very last in the world to argue with your vehemence.  And but what kind of punishment could a civilised society such as ours ever sanction to fit such offences?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 27, 2012)

MA-Caver said:


> Hey scumbag! No matter how many times you'll say "I'm sorry for what I've done" it'll *NEVER* be enough! You can be castrated and it won't be enough, you can rot in jail for the rest of your life and it won't be enough to pay for what you've done. Even one victim is too many!



Agreed.  Your post reminded me of a news story I just read, however.  Would you mind commenting on this?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-13/dangerous-sexual-predators-detained/53621210/1



> Six years ago, the federal government set out to indefinitely detain some of the nation's most dangerous sex offenders, keeping them locked up even after their prison sentences had ended.
> 
> But despite years of effort, the government has so far won court approval for detaining just 15 men.
> 
> Far more often, men the U.S.Justice Department branded as "sexually dangerous" predators remained imprisoned here for years without a mandatory court hearing before the government was forced to let them go, a USA TODAY investigation has found. The Justice Department has either lost or dropped its cases against 61 of the 136 men it sought to detain. Some were imprisoned for more than four years without a trial before they were freed.


...



> In the 1980s, a devastating series of studies suggested that psychologists' predictions about who was dangerous were *no more reliable than a coin toss*. So in the years that followed, researchers analyzed records on thousands of sex offenders, looking for the telltale markers that could identify groups of people most likely to re-offend. What they came up with is a lot like the system insurers use to figure out which types of people are most likely to have an accident.



I'm not defending sex offenders; far from it.  And I do believe that many of them represent a serious threat to society.  But I also believe that they are not the most dangerous criminals we have; we let murderers out when they have served their time, we don't 'civilly commit' them because they are likely to re-offend.

Likewise, we've tightened the laws regarding where a sex offender can live after being released from prison (if they are) such that in some communities, there is no legal space where there is housing where they can legally live; in one city in Florida, they live together under a bridge because it's the only place that does not cause them to break the law to live there.  Was that the intent?

Anyway, the whole thing strikes me as just...odd.  Does this guy deserve to be released?  No, I'd say not.  I have no problem keeping him locked up until his sentence is up.  Question is, what then?


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 27, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Agreed.  Your post reminded me of a news story I just read, however.  Would you mind commenting on this?
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-13/dangerous-sexual-predators-detained/53621210/1
> 
> ...



Interesting questions Bill and Jenna.  What do we do?  Nobody wants to see repeat criminals on the street, but indeed we do it all the time.  Recidivism has been well documented.  It would be nice if we could incarcerate until in fact we knew they were rehabilitated.  But we don't know how to do that.  In fact, I don't think you can rehabilitate a person without some pretty drastic mind altering/controlling methods, and maybe not even then.  I think an individual must decide themselves they want to do right.  That person you can help.  Most criminals you cannot help nor change.  I hope we can come up with something soon.  Hey, how about turning New York or LA into a big jail like in the movie?  ;-)


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## Big Don (Mar 27, 2012)

Recidivism declines rapidly among the executed...


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## ballen0351 (Mar 27, 2012)

The problem with Sex offenders is they cant stop.  They are not like normal criminals that steal or even murder for other motives.  These people are just wired wrong and its there nature to do these things and they cant help or stop.  They will always feel the urge to do it again.  The only answer to this is to lock them away.  I dont agree with keeping them after they have completed their sentence but I think the sentence needs to be much longer.  Now when I speak about sex offenders Im talking about real sex offenders not the guy that takes a leak in the ally and gets caught and now needs to register as a sex offender.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 27, 2012)

For the OP, he can never say or do anything that can make up for what he has done. As a father of teenage girl, I don't think any punishment is enough for such a person.

As to Bill's post, we have a Dangerous Offender status up here and we only get a couple of dozen people a year in prsion under it. Not a lot, but these are the worst of the worst, with zero chance of redemption.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_offender


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## MA-Caver (Mar 27, 2012)

It could well be that a farm of sorts may be needed to keep the serious repeat and/or violent sex offenders corralled where they can be watched, monitored. More tax dollars spent. 


ballen0351 said:


> The problem with Sex offenders is they cant  stop.  They are not like normal criminals that steal or even murder for  other motives.  These people are just wired wrong and its there nature  to do these things and they cant help or stop.  They will always feel  the urge to do it again.  The only answer to this is to lock them away.   I dont agree with keeping them after they have completed their sentence  but I think the sentence needs to be much longer.  Now when I speak  about sex offenders Im talking about real sex offenders not the guy that  takes a leak in the ally and gets caught and now needs to register as a  sex offender.



From my work with these guys (intensive therapy), Ballen is right, these guys have an addiction to the type of sex. Most of them claim that it's the sense of power and control that they have over their victims that gives them the gratification not the actual act of sex itself, though it's also part of the power and control/dominance. That's part of any normal sexual relationship... however with these guys it's not a normal sexual relationship that they are having, but they are compelled to do it. 
Longer sentences may be the answer but it's still a drain on tax dollars. Even those who are made to feel and show victim empathy, still have a high risk of re-offense. Eventually their old mental cycles that lead them to offend, will start up again because it's the life they know. 



Big Don said:


> Recidivism declines rapidly among the executed...


 Well unfortunately society doesn't think that such crimes merit a death sentence. Unfortunately society either has not or will not see the long term effect that these crimes have on the victims, only a marginally few members of society (here and abroad) are truly aware of the damage that is done. But I feel that they will find a reason to circumvent the death penalty, even in states where it's still practiced. 
It used to be that jail was a very very fearsome place to be, stereotyped sadistic guards and fellow cons, the (real) hard labor, the stigma of not finding decent work ever again, etc. etc. But now, some criminals actually re-offend to go BACK to jail. The old, "institutionalized" mentality. It needs to be a place where a lump of ice appears in the stomach and throat when the judge passes a 15-20 year sentence on someone, hell it needs to be that way for 2-5 year sentences. But it's not.  It's probably more like "oh great, all my plans have to be put on hold until I get out on good behavior". 

Gotta kick lawyers in the balls when they yell "cruel and unusual punishment". How about the cruel and unusual punishment the victims have to go through on a day to day basis? Rape, murder, assault, robbery, all manner of "personal crimes" have long term effects upon the victims.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm not sure that the recidivism rates are as claimed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender#Recidivism_rates

Lower recidivism rates than any other violent criminal?

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/how-likely-are-sex-offenders-to-repeat-their-crimes-258/

Treatment works?

I am not claiming that sex offenders are not dangerous people, or that they are not a special threat to our society that other types of criminals are not.  But one hears a lot of statements about recidivism rates and the fact that treatment doesn't work on sex offenders, and it is possible that not only is not true, but it's WAY not true.  I wonder why that is?


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## shesulsa (Mar 28, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not sure that the recidivism rates are as claimed:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender#Recidivism_rates
> 
> ...



My guess is that the effective treatments for such would be had from specialists in the field and, much like medical specialists, these people are expensive.  I would hazard the guess that somewhat trained general therapists would try to tackle some sex offender cases with the training they have rather than intensive training on reprogramming.


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## Jenna (Mar 28, 2012)

MA-Caver said:


> From my work with these guys (intensive therapy), Ballen is right, these guys have an addiction to the type of sex. Most of them claim that it's the sense of power and control that they have over their victims that gives them the gratification not the actual act of sex itself, though it's also part of the power and control/dominance. That's part of any normal sexual relationship... however with these guys it's not a normal sexual relationship that they are having, but they are compelled to do it.


Can I ask please, as a therapist, what goal are you seeking through the process of that intensive therapy?  And what kind of therapeutic modalities are used to achieve that goal?  Thank you.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, that is curious.  It certainly doesn't agree with what I have heard before and what I know empirically (mostly from others to be clear).  Studies for (and against) any point of view are too easy to produce.  I remember when the US Army Disciplinary Barracks (the US Army maximum security prison) was returning convicted soldiers to duty at a very high rate.  It was a popular thing to do.  If you could rehabilitate a soldier you saved the Army a lot of money.  You didn't have to recruit another soldier, and train him.  Wonderful program.  It wasn't really as successful as they liked to claim.  But it made them look good for a while.

We too often hear of a sex offender who has been convicted of prior offenses.  That said, I would be very happy if I found that sex offenders were indeed easy to rehabilitate.  But I wonder if those studies are including such things those who expose themselves, intentionally or unintentionally, and those who are fetishists who only steal clothing.  Those in my experience, are usually not much of a threat to women.  At least not physically.  Granted not many women would look forward to being accosted by a man exposing himself.

MA-Caver, if what I said seems wrong in any way, please correct me from your experience.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 28, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, that is curious.  It certainly doesn't agree with what I have heard before and what I know empirically (mostly from others to be clear).  Studies for (and against) any point of view are too easy to produce.  I remember when the US Army Disciplinary Barracks (the US Army maximum security prison) was returning convicted soldiers to duty at a very high rate.  It was a popular thing to do.  If you could rehabilitate a soldier you saved the Army a lot of money.  You didn't have to recruit another soldier, and train him.  Wonderful program.  It wasn't really as successful as they liked to claim.  But it made them look good for a while.
> 
> We too often hear of a sex offender who has been convicted of prior offenses.  That said, I would be very happy if I found that sex offenders were indeed easy to rehabilitate.  But I wonder if those studies are including such things those who expose themselves, intentionally or unintentionally, and those who are fetishists who only steal clothing.  Those in my experience, are usually not much of a threat to women.  At least not physically.  Granted not many women would look forward to being accosted by a man exposing himself.
> 
> MA-Caver, if what I said seems wrong in any way, please correct me from your experience.



I wondered the same thing about how the statistics are obtained.  Frustratingly few facts available.  However, no matter how it's sliced, it appears that some of the 'common wisdom' about recidivism rates and inability to cure are at best lacking, and at worst, just made up.

And that always leads me to the question of why that is.  There must be something primal in us that would prefer a cold-blooded calculating murderer walking free after doing his time than a guy who committed a sex offense.  I'm not sure that's wrong; I feel the same revulsion towards sex offenders; but I wonder at it.  Are we actually defending ourselves against legitimate threats, or exorcising a cultural demon?


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## Cyriacus (Mar 28, 2012)

Jenna said:


> I am the very last in the world to argue with your vehemence.  And but what kind of punishment could a civilised society such as ours ever sanction to fit such offences?


Imprisonment.
Because the way I see it, You could kill them, and it aint gonna un-rape the Victim.
But taking a couple of years away from his life? The victim may be traumatised, but unless shes driven to suicide or severe depression, she isnt losing years off her lifespan, spend essentially waiting, doing nothing.
People underestimate how severe a penalty imprisonment is.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 28, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wondered the same thing about how the statistics are obtained. Frustratingly few facts available. However, no matter how it's sliced, it appears that some of the 'common wisdom' about recidivism rates and inability to cure are at best lacking, and at worst, just made up.
> 
> And that always leads me to the question of why that is. There must be something primal in us that would prefer a cold-blooded calculating murderer walking free after doing his time than a guy who committed a sex offense. I'm not sure that's wrong; I feel the same revulsion towards sex offenders; but I wonder at it. Are we actually defending ourselves against legitimate threats, or exorcising a cultural demon?



Since MA-Caver seems to have much experience at counselling, perhaps we can look forward to other studies and the source of the information for that study.


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## Instructor (Mar 28, 2012)

Jenna said:


> I am the very last in the world to argue with your vehemence. And but what kind of punishment could a civilised society such as ours ever sanction to fit such offences?



A rope comes to mind.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 28, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Since MA-Caver seems to have much experience  at counseling, perhaps we can look forward to other studies and the  source of the information for that study.


Is this sarcasm? I don't know nor do I care. If it is not intended as such then fine, thank you. 

Disclaimer I guess is needed here. I do not nor ever have claimed to be a (licensed) therapist, I have worked with sex offenders in the capacity of a participant in one on one and group therapy sessions. Twice a week for over 5-7 years. Present was the licensed and state authorized therapist conducting the session(s). My presence was more of one who was in internship. So I'm not trying to swagger or make false claims other than I DO have experience working with these offenders and worked long enough and with a sufficient variety to speak upon what I've learned.  Take it for what it's worth to you. 

Jenna, the psychotherapy that these men were was intensive. Basically sent from the dept. of corrections, or the probation office and court-ordered to complete the program set up by the company contracted by the state, or else return to/enter prison... most were first time offenders, some were repeats. 
The program was simple. Basically get the offenders to accept *100% responsibility* for their actions, not 99% not even 99.99999 percent but the full 100. If the therapist assigned to the individual was not satisfied then the court would not be satisfied and the offender is packed off to prison. 
Ironically the company had (at the time I worked there) a 87% success rate. I've watched quite a few come and go in that time span. 
By success rate are the ones who did not return to prison since completing the program. There were a couple that I remember that did return to the program, as suggested by their probation officer(s) as a last resort to curtail the (officer's) recommendation to the courts that they be incarcerated. 
Does it work? Like I said, at the time they were holding on to a 87% success rate. When you think about it that's pretty good and on the other hand, it shows that there are going to be some who no amount of rehabilitation is going to succeed.


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## Jenna (Mar 28, 2012)

MA-Caver said:


> Is this sarcasm? I don't know nor do I care. If it is not intended as such then fine, thank you.
> 
> Disclaimer I guess is needed here. I do not nor ever have claimed to be a (licensed) therapist, I have worked with sex offenders in the capacity of a participant in one on one and group therapy sessions. Twice a week for over 5-7 years. Present was the licensed and state authorized therapist conducting the session(s). My presence was more of one who was in internship. So I'm not trying to swagger or make false claims other than I DO have experience working with these offenders and worked long enough and with a sufficient variety to speak upon what I've learned.  Take it for what it's worth to you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for following up (and I am interested in the therapy as it is a discipline I am studying right now for a career change )  87% I think is good and but obviously if some were repeat offenders then the therapy, like most punishments (even castration) is not 100% guaranteed, correct?  Can you say which kind of therapy is offered?  What do you think differentiates the ones that are changed by that counselling and the ones that are not?

I think lengthier incarceration while it might appease a victim is not financially viable and which makes a travesty of justice.  Death sentence I think I am ambivalent towards though I wish I was not.  Thank you for this post and for your insights.  I appreciate your contributions.  In my heart I appreciate your abhorrence of these acts (and in some cases these men).


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## MA-Caver (Mar 28, 2012)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for following up (and I am interested in the therapy as it is a discipline I am studying right now for a career change )  87% I think is good and but obviously if some were repeat offenders then the therapy, like most punishments (even castration) is not 100% guaranteed, correct?  Can you say which kind of therapy is offered?  What do you think differentiates the ones that are changed by that counselling and the ones that are not?
> 
> I think lengthier incarceration while it might appease a victim is not financially viable and which makes a travesty of justice.  Death sentence I think I am ambivalent towards though I wish I was not.  Thank you for this post and for your insights.  I appreciate your contributions.  In my heart I appreciate your abhorrence of these acts (and in some cases these men).



Thanks Jenna, I do find rape an atrocious act. I was taught long ago by my father that if a girl/woman says "no" in any way or even by actions then leave her alone. I find it ironic that I'm sometimes labeled a misogynic when I'm nothing of the sort. It's a terrible personal crime that does nothing more than show a man's weakness, which is another thing I despise. 

I'm not sure exactly how to label the type of therapy that was given to these men. It was intensive and they didn't let them get away with nothing, with individual or group sessions. The very moment that they tried to put even the tiniest of blame on their victims the hammer came down and they were grilled until they realized their mistake. I learned a lot from the sessions. One of the biggest things I learned was that with all of our (inner) problems, _all of them,_ the answer lies within us. When the therapist is asked: "Why did I do this (whatever)? The answer was "why do _you_ think you did it?" In essence forcing the knowledge out in the open that lay locked deep down inside. We all know why we do this or that just have to admit it to ourselves and to another. I liken it to opening the shutters in the darkened rooms of our hearts (and minds) and letting in the light to see exactly what is there, the shutters can only be opened from the inside.  
These men when made to realize that their thoughts, actions were entirely their responsibility, that the woman, child they harmed had done absolutely nothing to warrant their "attention" then they (for the most part) accept the accountability that is theirs alone. They are made to write out every thing; thoughts, feelings, actions and place them in a circle to show a cycle of their abuse. They're shown how being depressed, feeling lonely, powerless made them go find someone they could control, via rationalization, motivation and justification (in their minds) and thus end up feeling better about themselves but later guilt comes in, dragging them back down and feeling depressed, lonely, powerless and it starts all over again. Granted a lot of them were victims of abuse themselves in one form or another, so they learned from their abusers seeing them afterwards how much better the abuser felt and rationalized that is what they too must do to feel better about themselves. Others have other motivations, rejections, fear of rejection, stress (home/work/family), whatever. The feeling of excitement when they're in control of another and the false sense of instant gratification. The key was to find out what was that was driving them to commit those atrocious acts against their fellow human beings. Once that is established then the path to avoidance becomes clearer. 
Once all that has been done then they're given tools to help them recognize their triggers, to recognize that they're down and that hole they're feeling inside needs to be filled, that they're taught to find other (satisfying) ways to fill that emptiness. They learn the discipline that is needed to stay one step ahead of themselves and to seek help when it becomes too overwhelming. To find a trusted individual (family, friend) who understands, cares and is willing to do whatever to help thwart the thought process that would eventually lead them to offend. This goes with any destructive addiction really, food, sex, drugs,  alcohol, gambling, whatever! The jury is still out on Martial Arts! (_*just kidding*_) :wink2:

All that is a (too) simple way of explaining it but I hope it suffices. If you want more PM me. 

While my internship did help me better understand these men, never did have a woman offender during my tenure, but the therapists have counseled women before and instructed me that the physical sex of the offender (and their victims) is the only difference. The thoughts, feelings and everything else was exactly the same pattern. 
However; I still found myself still thinking of them as animals, (still do). I told them all that too, on my last day. Yet, I did tell them that for those who are earnestly trying, that I have hope of their regaining their human status somewhere along their journey. 
For those who don't want to or refuse to maintain the necessary discipline ... to the dungeon they go.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

Personally, I'm all for accepting the appology. And it's nice if they can accept 100% responsibility for their actions.

But that doesn't change the fact that I think rapists and child molesters ought to be burned at the stake.


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## Buka (Mar 28, 2012)

It's a difficult topic to discuss. It's difficult because we tend to look at it as a topic more than a reality. If it happens to you it has an effect, a bad effect. It is a horror. If it happens to your spouse, to your daughter, to your mother, to your sister or to your dear friend, it has an effect, almost as bad. It is all _at the hands of the enemy_. If you are the first cops on the scene, it has an effect. One that comes home with you. It comes home with you every single time. If you are the nurse or doctor, it has an effect, or if you are the therapist, or anyone involved with trying to put the pieces back together. It is all at the hands of the enemy. And he has done it before. Many times. Each time touching so many lives in so many ways.

And he will do it again. And again. And again.
 If it were a a lower life form, we'd shoot it. We wouldn't care if it was wired wrong, or if those that birthed it mistreated it, or if the other animals had picked on it, or if it had eaten fermented berries and was feeling all screwed up. Nope, we'd deal with it good and proper because we have to protect the children, and the family, and for God's sake, ourselves. Even PETA wouldn't bi**h. (much)

But if it's a thinking, cunning, planner, one that can walk among us during the day without raising even the slightest of eyebrows.....well, that's another story. After all, crazed serial rapists are people, too. We are a civilized society. Apparently, it feels good to let them out, because that's what we've decided to do as a society.

I think society needs less work on correctness and more work on tactics.


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## Jenna (Mar 29, 2012)

MA-Caver said:


> Thanks Jenna, I do find rape an atrocious act. I was taught long ago by my father that if a girl/woman says "no" in any way or even by actions then leave her alone. I find it ironic that I'm sometimes labeled a misogynic when I'm nothing of the sort. It's a terrible personal crime that does nothing more than show a man's weakness, which is another thing I despise.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how to label the type of therapy that was given to these men. It was intensive and they didn't let them get away with nothing, with individual or group sessions. The very moment that they tried to put even the tiniest of blame on their victims the hammer came down and they were grilled until they realized their mistake. I learned a lot from the sessions. One of the biggest things I learned was that with all of our (inner) problems, _all of them,_ the answer lies within us. When the therapist is asked: "Why did I do this (whatever)? The answer was "why do _you_ think you did it?" In essence forcing the knowledge out in the open that lay locked deep down inside. We all know why we do this or that just have to admit it to ourselves and to another. I liken it to opening the shutters in the darkened rooms of our hearts (and minds) and letting in the light to see exactly what is there, the shutters can only be opened from the inside.
> These men when made to realize that their thoughts, actions were entirely their responsibility, that the woman, child they harmed had done absolutely nothing to warrant their "attention" then they (for the most part) accept the accountability that is theirs alone. They are made to write out every thing; thoughts, feelings, actions and place them in a circle to show a cycle of their abuse. They're shown how being depressed, feeling lonely, powerless made them go find someone they could control, via rationalization, motivation and justification (in their minds) and thus end up feeling better about themselves but later guilt comes in, dragging them back down and feeling depressed, lonely, powerless and it starts all over again. Granted a lot of them were victims of abuse themselves in one form or another, so they learned from their abusers seeing them afterwards how much better the abuser felt and rationalized that is what they too must do to feel better about themselves. Others have other motivations, rejections, fear of rejection, stress (home/work/family), whatever. The feeling of excitement when they're in control of another and the false sense of instant gratification. The key was to find out what was that was driving them to commit those atrocious acts against their fellow human beings. Once that is established then the path to avoidance becomes clearer.
> ...


Thank you for explaining this to me.  It sounds like a mixture of therapies.. Removing their justification for attributing their actions to others (transferrance) I think is a staple of psychodynamic therapy and the recognition of triggers is cognitive behavioural and which seeks to cause a person to acknowledge their triggers and reframe their behaviour.  It is interesting for me to hear how this works in the (horrible in this case) reality.  I am used so far to dealing with people that have suffered trauma and not so much the perpetrators.  Do you think at the core of it, there is some good in these people?  I am not one to defend these things as I have been on the sharp end of it and but I wonder do we condemn them often by the actions of their abusers?  I am reluctant to attempt to empathise or identify with these people and nor do I want to be soft.  We all have freedom of decision in how to conduct ourselves and most of us go out of our way not to ever intentionally harm someone else.  I only want some objectivity as for a long time I would have been utterly blinded by a demand for vengeance.  I do not know, it is complicated (in my mind) what to do with these people.  Especially if in many cases our best efforts to rehabilitate and reintegrate them does not work.  I appreciate that you are doing your bit.  What is your personal reward in your field of work can I ask?  Thank you again.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 29, 2012)

MA-Caver said:


> Is this sarcasm? I don't know nor do I care. If it is not intended as such then fine, thank you.
> 
> ...



MA-Caver - What I said was in no way meant to be sarcasm.  I'm sorry my choice of words left that in doubt.  You mentioned working with sex offenders, so I thought you might have some statistics or empirical data that you could share.  In fact you did so and seem to support what Bill posted in his links.

Thanks.  It is surprising to me since that is not the popular belief.  But I accept it.  Thanks again.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 29, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> MA-Caver - What I said was in no way meant to be sarcasm.  I'm sorry my choice of words left that in doubt.  You mentioned working with sex offenders, so I thought you might have some statistics or empirical data that you could share.  In fact you did so and seem to support what Bill posted in his links.
> 
> Thanks.  It is surprising to me since that is not the popular belief.  But I accept it.  Thanks again.


 And thanks to you back. Which is why I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you did not intend it as such. :asian: 



Jenna said:


> Thank you for explaining this to me.  It sounds  like a mixture of therapies.. Removing their justification for  attributing their actions to others (transference) I think is a staple  of psycho dynamic therapy and the recognition of triggers is cognitive behavioral and which seeks to cause a person to acknowledge their  triggers and reframe their behavior.  It is interesting for me to hear  how this works in the (horrible in this case) reality.  I am used so far  to dealing with people that have suffered trauma and not so much the  perpetrators.  Do you think at the core of it, there is some good in  these people?  I am not one to defend these things as I have been on the  sharp end of it and but I wonder do we condemn them often by the  actions of their abusers?  I am reluctant to attempt to empathize or  identify with these people and nor do I want to be soft.  We all have  freedom of decision in how to conduct ourselves and most of us go out of  our way not to ever intentionally harm someone else.  I only want some  objectivity as for a long time I would have been utterly blinded by a  demand for vengeance.  I do not know, it is complicated (in my mind)  what to do with these people.  Especially if in many cases our best  efforts to rehabilitate and reintegrate them does not work.  I  appreciate that you are doing your bit.  What is your personal reward in  your field of work can I ask?  Thank you again.



Thanks for helping remind me of the terminology, which I've not used in a long time. I never completed the education nece$$ary for me to do that type of work as a career. Life kept getting in the way of such plans. Right now I'd be lucky to find something that pays *smirks* minimum wage. Either way, I think working with victims is far more important as they're the ones suffering most. Also as Buka pointed out, the crime(s) affects a number of others. But I do suggest working with perps for a while. If anything it'll provide insight (other side of the coin or story as it were) and may provide an answer when working with a victim undergoing long term therapy, that may be still searching for the "why?" of what happened to them. Understanding is not forgiveness, but it does alleviate _some_ of the lingering pain. Working with the perps would also be a change of pace and broaden your views... which is always, a good thing to do no matter what.


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## john2054 (Apr 1, 2012)

I want to speak up a little bit for the other side here. And this is at a probable risk of being reprimanded again, like has happened so many times before. And of course my experience with this situation might differ a lot from the typical sexual assault/rape/attempted rape senario, but a couple of years ago I found myself treading on dangerous territory along those grounds, and without breaking the forum rules I will say that I 'got away with it', whatever it was supposed to be. And that is not withstanding a two year hospital section, with a continuing section now that I am out in the community. And studying. But then I think that it is important to remember that not all of these crimes are premeditated, some are on the spur of the moment. And equally sometimes it is just bad luck, the turn of circumstances that result in that result. But equally as my 'crime' was not as formidable as it could be mistaken to be, so equally I think we have to be careful in always painting these times as guilty of castrationable effects, to be a mistake. Talk about playing the devils advocate ;-)


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 1, 2012)

John... I am going to gently say that it might be better for you to not post on the topic...

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