# hapkido vs wing chun



## bradtash

hi everyone, can someone please tell me if hapkido is as good for self defence and attack as wing chun. the reason i ask is because i am looing at joining one or the other and want to see what people think first. 
i was told wing chun was better for attack and defence is this true. i know the obvious answer is that it depends on the person and that this is a hapkido part of the forum but what do you all think, has anyone here sparred a wing chun practioner.


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## exile

bradtash said:


> hi everyone, can someone please tell me if hapkido is as good for self defence and attack as wing chun. the reason i ask is because i am looing at joining one or the other and want to see what people think first.
> i was told wing chun was better for attack and defence is this true. i know the obvious answer is that *it depends on the person *and that this is a hapkido part of the forum but what do you all think, has anyone here sparred a wing chun practioner.



The crucial thing is the part I've emphasized, Brad. I'm a TKDist and only a guest of the Hapkido folks here, but I have to say, Hapkido is as street-savvy and realistic in its training as any art out there, and is designed primarily for real self-defense combat. It has locks, throws, holds, pins and all the rest, but also striking techs with hands and elbows as well as feet and knees. I'm not taking anything away from Wing Chun, understand. If both are trained for maximum severe damage to an attacker unlucky enough to meet a well-trained and cold-hearted practitioner of either, that assailant had better have good health insurance, and maybe a fully paid-up life insurance plan. Really, as a colleague of mine likes to say, it's a horse apiece. 

Much more relevant is what you like in the way of combat style. Hapkido includes a lot of controlling moves and isn't what I'd regard as a primarily striking art, though a good HKDist can strike with the best of them. WC is much more oriented toward direct linear strikes. Both good, both brutally effective if trained well for that purpose... it comes down to the kind of technical toolkit that appeals to you most, how good the individual school is, and how dedicated you are in your training for real, practical, no-rules combat with a dangerous adversary. But there's no way one can be ranked above the other.


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## arnisador

exile said:


> Much more relevant is what you like in the way of combat style. Hapkido includes a lot of controlling moves and isn't what I'd regard as a primarily striking art, though a good HKDist can strike with the best of them. WC is much more oriented toward direct linear strikes. Both good, both brutally effective if trained well for that purpose... it comes down to the kind of technical toolkit that appeals to you most



All other things being equal--and they never are--this captures the key differences well. HKD usually places more emphasis on locks and throws with a good emphasis on strikes including high kicks. Because of the emphasis on (aiki)jujutsu-like techniques, it will seem more defensive. WC places a strong emphasis on a tight defense and a strong offense based around linear punches and other hand strikes. It drives forward to drive the ooponent back and off-balance and will seem more aggressive. WC is especially suited for smaller people but HKD works well there too; HKD would better let a larger person use his or her strength/weight but I've been tossed by an HKDer half my size. HKD has a greater variety of techniques while WC is a relatively compact system.

Like to take the fight to them? Like punching? Like facing your opponent and staying inside? Think WC. Like to lock your opponent up when they come to you? Like kicking? Like getting to an advantaged on top of your opponent or on his outside? Think HKD. They're both good for self-defense.

As you already know, the instructor makes a bigger difference. If self-defense is your goal, a martial arts _coach_ who can train you well and realistically matters much more than the specifics of how you throw your punch. But you have selected two arts with different approaches, and you may find that one fits your body and philosophy better than another.

Good luck! Keep us apprised of what you find.


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## CuongNhuka

Have you asked the same question in the Wing Chun or general self defense section? I think that you should really ask them as well if you haven't. Thats about all the advice I'll give because I think that the question is less of the style, and more of how you fit in the style.


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## TKDJUDO

CuongNhuka said:


> I think that the question is less of the style, and more of how you fit in the style.



I gotta agree. If you don't fit well with the style, then you won't be able to maximize youre training and knowledge. It all depends upon you. As everyone says, any martial art style is excellent, but it all depends upon who you train with, the instructor that trains you, you're enthusiasm for the art, etc.

As a HKD practicioner, I'd also like to point out that Hapkido has grappling involved within the art. This is also an important aspect if you're looking to defend yourself because most fights end up on the ground. I'm not really knowledgeable with the art of Wing Chun but their hand skills, when used in defence, is superior. I had the chance to do some hand sparring with a WC master, and I never could be able to hit him. That goes to show you that Wing Chun is very good in self-defence as well.

To sum things up, both arts are good for self-defence, but my opinion, go with Hapkido because it covers a lot of aspects in self-defence, kicking, punching, throwing, grappling, locks, chokeholds, you name it, Hapkido teaches it.


Good luck in your choice! :wink:


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## Xue Sheng

CuongNhuka said:


> I think that the question is less of the style, and more of how you fit in the style.


 
I too agree with this.


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## Flying Crane

any art is only as good as the person doing it.  They both have good things to offer, as long as they are taught by a good instructor.  Decide which one you like best (or it could be another art altogether), and then work to develop your skill with it.


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## AceHBK

Flying Crane said:


> They both have good things to offer, as long as they are taught by a good instructor.


 
This aspect is the hardest thing of all.  To find a "good instructor" is like trying to find the holy grail.


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## geezer

AceHBK said:


> This aspect is the hardest thing of all. To find a "good instructor" is like trying to find the holy grail.


 
I'd have to agree with so much of what has been said. I've been involved with Wing Tsun off and on since 1979. Yesterday I just signed my son up for lessons with a very fine instructor who teaches Kuk Sool Won (similar to Hapkido) and Western wrestling. To me, the choice of  instructor is of great importance, and you have to find an art that suits you. Finally, since nobody can master everything, each road you take means that there is another that, regretfully, you miss.


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## Marc Matson

I have a bit of experience in both Wing Chun and Hapkido. I have to say first off that whenever you are trying to make this type of comparison (and you will hear it time and again if you ask this kind of question on a forum) is that it really depends on the school and teacher.

That said I think both are awesome arts and I will talk about some of the good and bad of both.

Wing Chun - will teach you a very stable and strong structure to base your attaching and defense (although it does take some training and getting used to to get their)
They have some of the best sensitivity exercises I have ever seen in any art (lop sau, chi sau, and others) that can be very portable to other things if trained correctly

From day one you will be defending against multiple punches rather than the static one strike held out until the technique is finished

It has a small curriculum which will keep you working the basics with slightly different focus as you learn and internalize more and more of the principles
(you will spend more time on drills, basics, and forms)

Downside is that it is very linear and does not deal too much with anything other then straightline attack and defense until you have been around for a bit.

It does not really have a strong ground game. Some schools do have a grappling or anti grappling curriculum which may be great and workable for some people but I was not too impressed.

I come from a background fairly heavy on knife work and the defenses I have seen WC guys try to pull off scares me. (I know i will get flack but this is from my experience as a knife fighter who put quit a bit of time into WC)


Hapkido -Offers more techniques at more combat ranges.

has a much larger curriculum and will give you more options in your toolbox to deal with situations. (more time learning, and internalizing technique than 
doing drills. Although those are there also.)

More of a natural stance than practicing a structure that is uncomfortable and difficult to apply at the beginning stages.

Any Hapkido program worth it's water will have at least some discussion on ground fighting and take down defense.

downside is that you will begin learning grab defenses which you will probably not use on the street right away (although they will teach you concepts you will apply to every type of attack)

Weapons defense can be very good if the teacher has a good understanding of how the weapons are used (No one attacks with a knife in a straight lunge karate stance as I have seen a lot of schools do it. If the teacher knows how the weapon is used Hapkido is every bit as good as Filipino Dumog)

Visit both and try classes. See how will you gell with the instructors and students. hit youtube and look at some demos and if possible pick up some books or videos from respectable masters preferably from the same lineage of the schools you are looking at. 

I don't think you can go wrong with either. If the schools have website post them and I'm sure you will get some good feedback


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## kevin1

I practice both.  Wing Chun by far is more practical in a street situation.  I am def. not taking anything away from Hopkido. " The purest form is no form "  There are too many variables to say one is better than the other, except which I believe is better for me.  I would venture to say that WC is better for the majority though.  just an opinion.


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## Brad Dunne

"has anyone here sparred a wing chun practioner".

I always get a little erked when I see the sparring question. Sparring in a controlled setting only shows who is the better athlete, it's not going to offer validity for self defense purposes. That being said, folks have already given fine responses and in fact you yourself answered your own question with "it depends on the person".

Hapkido, does have an initial drawback, in my opinion. That being breakfalls. I know some folks just love doing them, but they have been the cause of many injuries. I've done my share of them, but I'm not a fan of them, but that's another thread rant in the making. Find out what tickles your fancy and go with it, but look at all that's available in your neck of the woods.


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## zDom

Brad Dunne said:


> Hapkido, does have an initial drawback, in my opinion. That being breakfalls. I know some folks just love doing them, but they have been the cause of many injuries. I've done my share of them, but I'm not a fan of them, but that's another thread rant in the making. Find out what tickles your fancy and go with it, but look at all that's available in your neck of the woods.



The CAUSE of many injuries? Sounds like those people aren't training breakfalling correctly. 

The purpose of breakfalls is so you can be thrown WITHOUT being injured. 

These two bits: 


Brad Dunne said:


> ...I know some folks just love doing them ....



(which seems to indicates that you DON'T)

and 



Brad Dunne said:


> ... I'm not a fan of them ...



tell me that you have definately NOT done your share of them if by "your share of them" you mean "enough to be good at them."

To survive being thrown, you *MUST LOVE* breakfalling. Must.


On another note, the OP is asking about effectiveness for self defense.

If you can't survive breakfalls without injury, imagine being thrown.

Throws anywhere but on a force-absorbing mat are usually fight enders.


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## Brad Dunne

_...I know some folks just love doing them ...._
(which seems to indicates that you DON'T)... I'm not a fan of them ...

See!,....That's why I like zDom, nothing gets past him.....He just flat out picked up on that........

"The CAUSE of many injuries? Sounds like those people aren't training breakfalling correctly."

So you've never seen or heard of anyone getting injured at your school? I bow to your training concepts, but it's a fact that people, regardless of the depth of their training do get hurt. Taking falls, one is only a split second away from painsville or worse. Everybody has an off day or your partner decides to get a little more intense or the new guy just holds on to long. The old saying "s**t happens comes into play here, but hey, mabey it's just me.....

tell me that you have definately NOT done your share of them if by "your share of them" you mean "enough to be good at them."

To survive being thrown, you *MUST LOVE* breakfalling. Must.

 OK, what's the number needed to be good enough? Or would it just be that you took the falls, weren't injured, continued to train, but just don't care all that much for them? The last breakfall I took, the Russian judge scored me a 9.5 :highfive:

"but that's another thread rant in the making." :uhoh:

On another note, the OP is asking about effectiveness for self defense.

On the same note, if the OP dosen't survive the training, then self defense won't be an issue. :btg:


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## Kumbajah

Sounds like you may be afraid of falling -

You can be injured in many aspects of martial arts. I don't see how break falling is significantly different. It is actually designed to keep you safe  

For me it is the most practical and most worthwhile thing we learn. Chances are that you will never use the "combat" part of the art - I am willing to bet you will fall down at some point in your life.  

It teaches body awareness - do you know when you are in a bad situation and how to minimize if you can. So if you do encounter the over zealous partner you can compensate. 

It also teaches you to relax - more relaxed easier the fall. If you can learn to relax you will move better in all aspects of MA. 

It is also the doorway to counters. You have to have the body awareness to be able to put yourself in a position to be ahead of his technique. Also - sometimes taking the fall is your best option to open the possibility of a counter. 

Finally the better you and your partners can break fall the more realistically you can throw each other. So those aspects will improve as well.

As per the OT - learning to fall is the best self defense you an learn - imo.

My 2¢


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## Brad Dunne

It must be "tag" your it. Seems like everytime I post to somebodies question, it becomes jump on what I say and it's apparent that folks don't really read.

Sounds like you may be afraid of falling.................

Just reread the last post..........:duh:

As per the OT - learning to fall is the best self defense you an learn - imo.

And your more than intitled to your opinion, but also remember, not all the arts do breakfalls, but they are still self defense responsive. So breakfalls are not really the end all be all....... 

Chances are that you will never use the "combat" part of the art.

We certainly hope so, but that's a fairly broard statement and I'm assuming that it's meant for a general overview of everybody that studies.

The only thing I was offering to the initial post was a reference to what could happen in a particular aspect of training in Hapkido. Everybody knows that there is always the chance/opportunity to get injuried in doing anything physical, but engaging in an aspect of training that can and has put people at a greater risk of injury should be noteworthy.


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## Kumbajah

I did read ( and then reread) your post - The fact that you think there is more inherent risk in falling then any other aspect of hapkido led me to that conclusion.  I've seen more people injured NOT falling then falling ( read resisting the technique at the wrong point) This is across Judo, Hapkido and Aikido. 



Brad Dunne said:


> "And your more than intitled to your opinion, but also remember, not all the arts do breakfalls, but they are still self defense responsive. So breakfalls are not really the end all be all....... "



This being a Hapkido forum - I thought we we addressing Hapkido. Like I said before there is more chance of you falling down then being in a "self defense " situation - (LEO exception -falling is doubly beneficial there) I'm not trying to devalue the other aspects or other arts. I do fell that some arts don't address all areas. Hapkido does have a good over view of self protection - is the best is everything - no, but it does address a lot. More so then say, TKD - TKD Dojangs add HKD - not the other way around. 



Brad Dunne said:


> "The only thing I was offering to the initial post was a reference to what could happen in a particular aspect of training in Hapkido. Everybody knows that there is always the chance/opportunity to get injuried in doing anything physical, but engaging in an aspect of training that can and has put people at a greater risk of injury should be noteworthy."



I disagree with your premise that Breakfalling puts "people at a greater risk of injury should be noteworthy."

I feel its misinformation on your part - the techniques of breakfalling are designed to protect. It is used in every art that has throws. If it is inherently dangerous as you say there would very few practitioners of any arts with throws. 

If your dojang has an inordinate amount of injuries from breakfalling - it may be due to bad technique.


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## Brad Dunne

This being a Hapkido forum - I thought we we addressing Hapkido.

No, we were addressing my opinion in regards to an aspect of Hapkido as opposed to Wing Chun. 

I disagree with your premise that Breakfalling puts "people at a greater risk of injury should be noteworthy."
Disagree away, that's your choice, but common sense dictates that throwing your body to the ground will at some point be the cause of an injury. Just because it hasen't happened to you or perhaps in your presence, dosen't mean it not going to. It only will take one time, when your not up to speed or distracted. Murphy's law comes into play here also.  

I feel its misinformation on your part - the techniques of breakfalling are designed to protect.

They only protect, when one becomes proficient at them and even then, there's no assurance that an "opps" won't rear it's ugly head.  Until that point in time, students can still be injured because they are in a learning mode. Even the best breakfall devotee will at some point have to curtail the activity, because the human body can only take so much abuse. 

Let me ask you a question...........What happens if for some reason you can't take breakfalls anymore or your doctor says it's ill advised to keep doing them. Does that mean that you can't or should no longer do Hapkido?

LEO exception -falling is doubly beneficial there........ How so? Leo's fall while being intangled with another body that's either fighting or attempting to escape. Either way, body positioning is not in a favorable mode and with the addition of additional body weight being transfered in a not so controlled manner, anything and everything can and usually happens.


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## Kumbajah

Breakfalls are an aspect of Hapkido not Wing Chun - so it follows ( to me at least ) that we are discussing an aspect of Hapkido. ( in comparison to wing chun) 

Common sense also dictates that receiving punches,kicks sweeps and joint locks you will also get injured at some point. You still seem to be placing greater danger in break-falling then any other aspect. Which seems to me indicate aversion - which indicates fear. 

I am not saying that it is impossible to get injured breakfalling - nothing physical is without the chance of injury. You can get hurt getting out bed in the morning. Nothing is without risk - there is always an "oops factor" in everything you do. 

Breakfalls are only abuse if you are doing them incorrectly. In the learning process these things have to be built up. Slowly and measured at first until you can handle more - just like any other skill. Back fall, side fall, front fall then the higher versions. 

You don't do as many as humanly possible. (just like anything else) 

As for no longer breakfalling - yes, I think that you can no longer practice. You can practice aspects / techniques of hapkido but you are not practicing the art. You are demonstrating at best.

I seen men well advanced in age - 70's and 80's still taking breakfalls.  They aren't doing a ton of them but they are doing them.

As for LEOs - it is doubly important for the reasons that you stated - there is another person's mass to consider - so things like keeping your chin tucked in so you don't mash your head is extremely important  - there is also added body awareness ( knowing when you are going to get dumped on your ***) and weapon retention Keeping the weapon away so its not lost or you fall on it or release it in a fall. So falling needs to be practiced so hopefully its not such a crap shoot.


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## Kumbajah

Ran Across this quote - Not Hapkido but applicable ...imo.

http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm



> As I have often said if one hates to be thrown, one cannot expect to become a master of the art. By taking throws time after time, one must learn how to take falls and overcome the fear of being thrown. Then one will become unafraid of being attacked and be able to take the initiative in attack. Only by following this manner of training can one learn true Judo waza. Contest and practice, which are both means of training, should be conducted in the way to develop speed and free movement of the body.


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## zDom

Kumbajah said:


> Ran Across this quote - Not Hapkido but applicable ...imo.
> 
> http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm



That's a great quote.

MSK has a strong yudo current in it &#8212; MSK is known for full circle powerful throws. This, in turn, means we must have even more emphasis in falling.

Our falling is practical; not showy. And it is progressive. We don't expect or demand a yellow belt to fall as well as a black belt.

But by the time I took my black belt test, I was READY. I was so exhausted that I could barely stand &#8212; but as falling was by then second nature, I could be slammed into the mat and it was just a time to relax 

FWIW, I slipped on ice a couple of winters ago &#8212; right into a side fall position &#8212; on a concrete floor. No injury. Don't even recall having a bruise on my hip.

Being able to do _a_ perfect fall isn't the same as falling so well that it is second nature to you.

I have to tell you: for a long time I went through the motions of "loving falling," and for a while was still leery of it, even afraid. But after some years of training, I gotta tell you: I genuinely learned to LOVE it.

There is a RUSH in having someone slam you to the mat as hard as they possibly can.

I should probably mention that having a GOOD mat is important and significantly reduces the risk of injury in learning to fall. A hard mat can make it hard to love falling.

Anyway, FWIW: I've seen more injuries over the years, received more bruises and bumps, from _sparring_ than falling. Way more. A ratio of like 100:1.


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## matt.m

zDom said:


> That's a great quote.
> 
> MSK has a strong yudo current in it  MSK is known for full circle powerful throws. This, in turn, means we must have even more emphasis in falling.
> 
> Our falling is practical; not showy. And it is progressive. We don't expect or demand a yellow belt to fall as well as a black belt.
> 
> But by the time I took my black belt test, I was READY. I was so exhausted that I could barely stand  but as falling was by then second nature, I could be slammed into the mat and it was just a time to relax
> 
> FWIW, I slipped on ice a couple of winters ago  right into a side fall position  on a concrete floor. No injury. Don't even recall having a bruise on my hip.
> 
> Being able to do _a_ perfect fall isn't the same as falling so well that it is second nature to you.
> 
> I have to tell you: for a long time I went through the motions of "loving falling," and for a while was still leery of it, even afraid. But after some years of training, I gotta tell you: I genuinely learned to LOVE it.
> 
> There is a RUSH in having someone slam you to the mat as hard as they possibly can.
> 
> I should probably mention that having a GOOD mat is important and significantly reduces the risk of injury in learning to fall. A hard mat can make it hard to love falling.
> 
> Anyway, FWIW: I've seen more injuries over the years, received more bruises and bumps, from _sparring_ than falling. Way more. A ratio of like 100:1.


 

There is a ton of truth into what z says.  Falling has to be 2nd nature.  I have a lot of falling in my judo class.  My students love it, it's there favorite thing.  I walk with 2 leg braces and a cane and practice static falling every day.


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## MrBigglesworth

Looking at my Aikido background (but can't see how it's too much different in Hapkido...), I'd think that a school is only as good as they fall. Punches and kicks make it a little different, but TKD with a few badly applied locks isn't how I think of HKD.

When it come to throws and locks, the ability of the students to perform uke (an Aikido term for receiving the technique, not just breakfalling. What is the Korean equivalent?) limits the ability of the students to develop their power.

As you develop the technique to be safely thrown (or locked / manipulated) with real power, then your partner gets the opportunity to develop real power when they throw. They have to go hand in hand.

If people slam each other harder than their ability to protect themselves from, then you'll get a lot of injuries. That's not the fault of breakfalling. That's the fault of unbalanced learning. <end rant/>

To bring it back to WC, the curriculum is much more limited the HKD, but that is sometimes one of its strengths. You get the repetitions in more quickly to develop instinctive reactions. Their "offensive blocks" like fuk sau (sp?) are awesome too, though geared to more linear attacks.

To the OP: In the end, different people are suited to different types of art. Try both and see which one you enjoy.


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