# MT Encyclopedia Entry on Kenpo/Kempo



## Bob Hubbard

http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Kenpo


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## Seabrook

I am not sure who wrote that, but to be honest, there is a lot of information in there that is incorrect. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Bob Hubbard

Thats the nice thing about it, it can be modified.


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## Bob Hubbard

The MartialTalk Martial Arts Encyclopedia (or wiki) is a community created/edited/expanded encyclopedia and semi-dictionary of the martial arts. It uses the same software as the Wikipedia but focuses on a more concentrated area. This allows us do be a bit more than the Wikipedia (which isn't a dictionary).

 It differs from the MartialTalk Discussion Forums, in that it is a resource, not a forum. On a discussion board, you can play point-counter point, debate, etc. On the MTMAE the contents should conform to a preferably non-political 3rd person view. Anyone who registers can edit the entries. We work together building the entries, correcting and expanding each others comments. The key test all content there must pass are "credible", "verifiable" and "Neutral Point of View".

 From the Wikipedia these are defined as:

_*Credible *content is defined simply as "articles should use reliable published sources"_ 
 What is and is not credible is outlined in great detail here.

_"*Verifiability*" in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable or credible sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. For that reason, it is vital that editors rely on good sources._

_*NPOV (Neutral Point Of View)* is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias._

 This is joined by the "*No Original Research*" clause.
 Neither Wikipedia nor the MTMAE are _the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to show that you are not doing original research is to cite sources who discuss material that is directly related to the article, and to stick closely to what those sources say. 

Original research is a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material added to articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been published already by a reputable source. In this context it means unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation"._


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## BlackCatBonz

i have a question, bob.
on this particular entry.....i too, agree that there is a lot of misinformation there.
a lot of the info in this particular entry is not contained in any reputable, previously researched source.
it simply seems to be a collection of the usual drivel that people talk about, that has no basis in fact....or in previously written works.
while there is a lot of speculation as to the origins of james mitose's kempo.....nothing has come to light that proves it wrong......sure there is reasonable doubt and doubters......but not all people think its a "complete" farce. there are elements of truth hidden in there.
this particular entry contains no cited resources.

so......with that long preface.
would citing Mitose's own books as a reference for the art of kempo be out of line?
he was in fact considered the expert on the subject until people started to have problems, either real or imagined ones, with him.


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## arnisador

That's certainly _a _source, and I think it's proper to use it/them. But it'd be nice to have an independent, second source.

It may be that the best that can be done is to describe the current controversy over the history.


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## Bob Hubbard

The idea is to have verifiable stuff, with the references, citations, etc. As his works were published, I'm pretty certain they are a citable source. Also, as Arni said, having it validated by an independent verifiable source is also good.


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## Zoran

I think the *Kenpo in the West* part could do for a complete re-write. It's the original one from Wikipedia. 

It should probably be called *Hawaiin Kenpo Lineage*, or something like that. I personally feel it was originally writen by a traditional stylist, as there are a lot of assumptions from a limited experience of Kenpo.

I'll see if I can come up with something a little better that shows both sides.

Side Note:

Bob, I am glad you started this as I've played with the idea myself for a couple of years now. Just never found the time. The reason I never did this is the logistics of keeping track of everything that someone could change.

For example, I was the one that originally put a list up of some of the styles. Then other people came along and started adding links to their sites. I personally feel that it is not optimal for people to link to sites, but should link to internal articles. You may want to consider making some rules about this. People should not use the Martialpedia to generate traffic for their site.

Anyways, I would like to see this project become a success. As such, if you requre any help, I would like to offer it. Be it as a mod or what have you.


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## Bob Hubbard

Zoran, all the help is greatly appreciated.  I'll be bumping up more people to sysop level once things start moving. As to the entries, it's all up for revision. 
Palusut's the one who kept suggesting the project. I just installed the software and mirrored some entries.


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## BlackCatBonz

thats the funny thing about any discussion of mitose.......anything other than the stuff that he has written is all hearsay.....nothing has been proven or disporven.
there are some actual facts....but there are also a bunch of half baked theories and wishful thoughts as to the origins of what it is he taught.


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## Eye of the Storm

Hello everyone,
I'm glad to see the interst in the Kenpo History. I've studied Kenpo for the past 25 years. I also have been intrested in the history of the late GGM Mitose. My lineage is from Great Grandmaster Ralph Castro, my teacher is Grandmaster Richard Alameny
I myself take the good with the bad. we are all here to learn what works for us. It dosen't mater that Mitose was the Best or just good. What maters is that He got the ball rolling so we can be the best we can be, and all the defferent styles that has come from this begining. we can all enjoy and benifit from. I encorage everyone to seek there own truth in themself. Keep up all great info. I enjoy this site, no bickering, just good sharing of knowlage and fellowship.


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## kidswarrior

Bob Hubbard said:


> The MartialTalk Martial Arts Encyclopedia (or wiki) is a community created/edited/expanded encyclopedia and semi-dictionary of the martial arts. It uses the same software as the Wikipedia but focuses on a more concentrated area. This allows us do be a bit more than the Wikipedia (which isn't a dictionary).
> 
> It differs from the MartialTalk Discussion Forums, in that it is a resource, not a forum. On a discussion board, you can play point-counter point, debate, etc. On the MTMAE the contents should conform to a preferably non-political 3rd person view. Anyone who registers can edit the entries. We work together building the entries, correcting and expanding each others comments. The key test all content there must pass are "credible", "verifiable" and "Neutral Point of View".


 
Interesting, Bob. I look forward to exploring and maybe interacting with this valuable resource.


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## D.Cobb

I was under the impression that Kenpo/ Kempo was an Okinawan term, not Japanese. I thought it was the the Okinawan translation of the characters for the Chinese Quan Fa (Chuan Fa).

Can anyone clarify?

--Dave


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## Zoran

D.Cobb said:


> I was under the impression that Kenpo/ Kempo was an Okinawan term, not Japanese. I thought it was the the Okinawan translation of the characters for the Chinese Quan Fa (Chuan Fa).
> 
> Can anyone clarify?
> 
> --Dave



Nope. It's a japanese word. Okinawan laguages are dialects or subsets of Japanese. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonic_languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_language


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## Touch Of Death

I have theory you all can feel free to shoot down, but it will be pretty hard to shake this opinion. The pronuncation of kenpo is an Ed Parker twist on the word Kempo. To Ken something in English is to understand it. So the word becomes an understanding of the fist. Law of the fist or Kempo means to understand the parameters defining(laws of motion and nature) or in short that paricular understanding; hence, all the kempo varaitions or ways of thinking. In other words its all the Sam Ting.
sean


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## Zoran

Touch Of Death said:


> I have theory you all can feel free to shoot down, but it will be pretty hard to shake this opinion. The pronuncation of kenpo is an Ed Parker twist on the word Kempo. To Ken something in English is to understand it. So the word becomes an understanding of the fist. Law of the fist or Kempo means to understand the parameters defining(laws of motion and nature) or in short that paricular understanding; hence, all the kempo varaitions or ways of thinking. In other words its all the Sam Ting.
> sean



Okay, I'll shoot it down. :shock:

Nice theory. Except Kenpo is not an Parker twist. As I understand it, Chow used Kenpo and later changed it to Kempo. I believe Parker spelled it the way he was taught to spell it from his instructor.

In either case, we do not have the alphabet to be able to simulate the pronounciation of Japanese words. We could have just as easily spelled it Kemho.


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## Touch Of Death

Zoran said:


> Okay, I'll shoot it down. :shock:
> 
> Nice theory. Except Kenpo is not an Parker twist. As I understand it, Chow used Kenpo and later changed it to Kempo. I believe Parker spelled it the way he was taught to spell it from his instructor.
> 
> In either case, we do not have the alphabet to be able to simulate the pronounciation of Japanese words. We could have just as easily spelled it Kemho.


A mere flesh wound. 
Sean


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## Zoran

Touch Of Death said:


> A mere flesh wound.
> Sean



Well I guess we can have some fun with it.

Ken
*noun:*   the range of vision 
*noun:*   range of what one can know or understand (Example: _"Beyond my ken"_) 


PO
*noun:*   a European river; flows into the Adriatic Sea   
*noun:*   a noncommissioned officer in the navy with a rank comparable to sergeant in the army   
*noun:*   a radioactive metallic element that is similar to tellurium and bismuth; occurs in uranium ores but can be produced by bombarding bismuth with neutrons in a nuclear reactor 
*noun:*   an independent agency of the federal government responsible for mail delivery (and sometimes telecommunications) between individuals and businesses in the United States


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## Touch Of Death

Zoran said:


> Well I guess we can have some fun with it.
> 
> Ken
> *noun:* the range of vision
> *noun:* range of what one can know or understand (Example: _"Beyond my ken"_)
> 
> 
> PO
> *noun:* a European river; flows into the Adriatic Sea
> *noun:* a noncommissioned officer in the navy with a rank comparable to sergeant in the army
> *noun:* a radioactive metallic element that is similar to tellurium and bismuth; occurs in uranium ores but can be produced by bombarding bismuth with neutrons in a nuclear reactor
> *noun:* an independent agency of the federal government responsible for mail delivery (and sometimes telecommunications) between individuals and businesses in the United States


I was going with the japanese fist action.:ultracool


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## D.Cobb

Zoran said:


> Nope. It's a japanese word. Okinawan laguages are dialects or subsets of Japanese.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonic_languages
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_language


 

Hmmm that's not what it says here,



			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Okinawan* (Okinawan: *&#660;ucin&#257;guci*) is a Ryukyuan language spoken in Japan on the southern island of Okinawa, as well as the surrounding islands of Kerama, Kume-jima, Tonaki, Aguni, and a number of smaller islands located to the east of the main island of Okinawa.
> It is divided into two main groups: Central (Standard, Shuri-Naha) and Southern. The Shuri dialect was standardized during the era of the Ryukyuan Kingdom, during the reign of King Sho Shin (1477-1526). It was the official language used by royalty and aristocracy. All of the songs and poems in the language from that era are written in the Shuri dialect.
> The speech of Northern Okinawa is usually considered a separate language, see Kunigami language.


 
Also, I believe that there are a small number of Okinawans that actually speak the Okinawan language. The majority now speak Japanese, but they are definately two different languages.

--Dave


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## kidswarrior

Touch Of Death said:


> I have theory you all can feel free to shoot down, but it will be pretty hard to shake this opinion. The pronuncation of kenpo is an Ed Parker twist on the word Kempo.



This is interesting in that if you look at John Bishop's lineage chart, it seems only EPAK descendants use the 'n'. Other than the overarching Ka*ju**ken**bo. Feel free to shoot this down, too, as I'm just thinking out loud.


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## D.Cobb

kidswarrior said:


> This is interesting in that if you look at John Bishop's lineage chart, it seems only EPAK descendants use the 'n'. Other than the overarching Ka*ju**ken**bo. Feel free to shoot this down, too, as I'm just thinking out loud.


 
Not entirely true. If you look outside of the American/ Hawaiian lines of Kenpo you will find others that use the 'N'.

The only one that springs to mind right now (I'm having brain cramp), is Patrick McCarthy, and he's a Canadian. There are others, mostly those of Okinawan extraction, without the Japanese influence.

--Dave


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## Zoran

D.Cobb said:


> Hmmm that's not what it says here,
> 
> --Dave



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages



> The *Ryukyuan languages* are spoken in the Ryukyu Islands and make up a subfamily of the Japonic language family. Some disagree as to how these languages should be divided. However, there is a consensus among Ryukyuanists that there are 6 different groups[1].



The main thing though is not the spoken word, but the kanji. Kenpo/Kempo is the transliteration a Japanese word. However, one of the Okinawan laguages may speak/pronounce the word differently. It could also be possible that the original kanji was first used in one of the Okinawan islands carried over from China (_note: I am no where even close to being an expert on these things)_.

Incidentally, the kanji for Kenpo _(Japanese)_ and Chuan Fa _(Chinese)_ are identical _(that I've seen at various sources)_.


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## D.Cobb

Zoran said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages
> 
> 
> 
> The main thing though is not the spoken word, but the kanji. Kenpo/Kempo is the transliteration a Japanese word. However, one of the Okinawan laguages may speak/pronounce the word differently. It could also be possible that the original kanji was first used in one of the Okinawan islands carried over from China (_note: I am no where even close to being an expert on these things)_.
> 
> Incidentally, the kanji for Kenpo _(Japanese)_ and Chuan Fa _(Chinese)_ are identical _(that I've seen at various sources)_.


 
I wonder if the original Okinawan kanji is the same too. If so does that make it Japanese or Chinese:idunno: 

I have read, with regard to the language influences, that the Chinese had a greater influence than the Japanese over the Okinawan language as well as influencing the martial arts component of their culture. This was of course until the Ryukyu Kingdom was annexed to Japan in the 1800's.

However I will admit, I too am far from expert in this subject.

--Dave


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## Zoran

D.Cobb said:


> I wonder if the original Okinawan kanji is the same too.



Probably. 

You know, I never really checked this before, but Japanese Kanji appears to be Chinese to begin with. See, I can be pretty dense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji

Well, that explains why everything is similar. So the Kanji &#25331;&#27861; in Japan would be Kenpo, in China it would be Chuan Fa. So in one of the old Okinawan laguages, who knows _(well at least I don't)_.


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## BlackCatBonz

The japanese writing system was adopted from china......and before the kana system was developed, only kanji was used. Kanji means "han characters", which refer to the han dynasty.......Japan went through a time that everything chinese was in vogue.
There are characters that are uniquely japanese that use chinese characters though.
The characters have to readings, chinese (on-yomi) and japanese (kun-yomi).


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## D.Cobb

BlackCatBonz said:


> The japanese writing system was adopted from china......and before the kana system was developed, only kanji was used. Kanji means "han characters", which refer to the han dynasty.......Japan went through a time that everything chinese was in vogue.
> There are characters that are uniquely japanese that use chinese characters though.
> The characters have to readings, chinese (on-yomi) and japanese (kun-yomi).


 
Hey Zoran, this guy seems to know a bit more than you or I let's ask him....

So Shawn, does this mean that Kenpo/ Kempo is a Japanese word or an Okinawan word? Are they 2 different languages or is Okinawan a subset of Japanese?

--Dave (and possibly Zoran  )


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## BlackCatBonz

D.Cobb said:


> Hey Zoran, this guy seems to know a bit more than you or I let's ask him....
> 
> So Shawn, does this mean that Kenpo/ Kempo is a Japanese word or an Okinawan word? Are they 2 different languages or is Okinawan a subset of Japanese?
> 
> --Dave (and possibly Zoran  )


 
As far as I know, Okinawan is a different language....or different enough that okinawan visitors needed a translator when visitning japan.
This would lead me to surmise that kempo is a japanese word because:
1. The differences in language.
2. I've been told by japanese teachers.
3. there are many references to it in old japanese martial arts texts.

Now, it doesnt matter as japanese is pretty widely spoken in okinawa.

Understanding that, is kempo an on-yomi or an kun yomi pronunciation?
If it is an on-yomi pronunciation, then it is possible that the okinawan word would similar to the japanese word.

I would like to add, the "n" or "m" in the spelling is irrelevant (unless you're from NA), either version is and should be acceptable, just be prepared to catch flak for whatever way you spell it.


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## Zoran

BlackCatBonz said:


> As far as I know, Okinawan is a different language....or different enough that okinawan visitors needed a translator when visitning japan.
> This would lead me to surmise that kempo is a japanese word because:
> 1. The differences in language.
> 2. I've been told by japanese teachers.
> 3. there are many references to it in old japanese martial arts texts.
> 
> Now, it doesnt matter as japanese is pretty widely spoken in okinawa.
> 
> Understanding that, is kempo an on-yomi or an kun yomi pronunciation?
> If it is an on-yomi pronunciation, then it is possible that the okinawan word would similar to the japanese word.
> 
> I would like to add, the "n" or "m" in the spelling is irrelevant (unless you're from NA), either version is and should be acceptable, just be prepared to catch flak for whatever way you spell it.



Thank you, that is as I understood it as well _(except for the on/kun yomi part)_. 

Also to add to it, Shorinji Kempo _(Shaolin ChuanFa)_ has no relation to okinawan martial arts as it was reportedly brought back from China to Japan by the founder.

I have also "heard" the following from those more in touch with the Japanese laguage;

Kenpo/Kempo better translates to english into "fighting method". I believe "fist law" tends to be more a translation of the Kanji symbols.
Kenpo/Kempo can be used, in Japan, for martial arts that have some Chinese origin.
Anyways, this is what I have heard from others.


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## Carol

"Kenpo" in Japan is often used generically to refer to a fighting art, much like "Karate" is used generically in the US.


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## Zoran

Carol Kaur said:


> "Kenpo" in Japan is often used generically to refer to a fighting art, much like "Karate" is used generically in the US.



Yep, that's the funny thing about languages. Words can mean different things to different people and context. You can easily see it in english when you look up a word in a dictionary and find several different definitions.


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## BlackCatBonz

Carol Kaur said:


> "Kenpo" in Japan is often used generically to refer to a fighting art, much like "Karate" is used generically in the US.


 
I was told they use the word budo.


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## bdocili

Eye of the Storm said:


> Hello everyone,
> I'm glad to see the interst in the Kenpo History. I've studied Kenpo for the past 25 years. I also have been intrested in the history of the late GGM Mitose. My lineage is from Great Grandmaster Ralph Castro, my teacher is Grandmaster Richard Alameny
> I myself take the good with the bad. we are all here to learn what works for us. It dosen't mater that Mitose was the Best or just good. What maters is that He got the ball rolling so we can be the best we can be, and all the defferent styles that has come from this begining. we can all enjoy and benifit from. I encorage everyone to seek there own truth in themself. Keep up all great info. I enjoy this site, no bickering, just good sharing of knowlage and fellowship.


 
Hey, quick question for you?  Has Senior Professor Alemany broken off from Shaolin Kenpo?  The reason I ask is that I keep seeing him referred to as "Grandmaster".  His title in the Shaolin Kenpo association is Senior Professor as his last awarded rank was 8th degree in 1992.  My teacher was also a Senior Professor (Genaro Jose) but he liked us to call him Sifu.  There are only two grandmasters in Shaolin Kenpo; Great Grandmaster Ralph Castro and Grandmaster Rob Castro (next in line to take over the system).  So, back to my question, has Mr. Alemany broken off?


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## Kenpo5.0Hawker

I can't get the Wiki to come up. I keep getting told - Error


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## jks9199

Just a note... you might want to look at the dates on some posts.  The most recent in this thread is from 2007.  I think Bob gave up on getting authors to maintain the Wiki...


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## Bob Hubbard

The wiki crashed a while back.  I plan on recovering the content, but don't have an eta for that.


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## Big Don

Bob Hubbard said:


> The wiki crashed a while back.  I plan on recovering the content, but don't have an eta for that.





So, I am more tired than I realized. I stared at this and wondered, "What the F is an eta?"


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## jks9199

Add an f, and eta become feta... goat cheese.


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## TSDTexan

Zoran said:


> Ryukyuan languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> The main thing though is not the spoken word, but the kanji. Kenpo/Kempo is the transliteration a Japanese word. However, one of the Okinawan laguages may speak/pronounce the word differently. It could also be possible that the original kanji was first used in one of the Okinawan islands carried over from China (_note: I am no where even close to being an expert on these things)_.
> 
> Incidentally, the kanji for Kenpo _(Japanese)_ and Chuan Fa _(Chinese)_ are identical _(that I've seen at various sources)_.




Kanji are Chinese ideograms... The logic that I am reading is Okinawan is Japanese because they use the written Kanji.
If this logic is valid... The Okinawan language, and the Japanese language are both Chinese.

However, this is not the case at all. Japanese language also has in addition to Kanji.. Katakana... Hiragona.

Moreover, ask any really old Okinawan are they Japanese or Okinawan. They had their own language, culture and royal family.... And were subjugated like the Koreans... The only difference is that the Korean occupation ended, and the Okinawan occupation had not.


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