# I think playing Bass and Guitar is helping with Hapkido



## skribs (May 28, 2019)

When I started doing Hapkido, my wrists would be sore after every class, often for a few days.  Usually I'd go home and ice and Advil, and after a day or two I'd be okay again.

My Hapkido class is more of an elective of my Taekwondo school than it's own thing, and so in the past it has kind of come and gone.  (We're trying to be more dedicated to keeping it going now).  About 2 years ago, I started playing guitar, and after a few months switched to bass.  I have noticed that my fingers and wrists have an increase in:

Speed
Strength
Dexterity
Flexibility
Stamina
I've also noticed that lately I get out of class, and my wrists recover a lot faster than they used to.

Has anyone else seen this connection?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

skribs said:


> When I started doing Hapkido, my wrists would be sore after every class, often for a few days.  Usually I'd go home and ice and Advil, and after a day or two I'd be okay again.
> 
> My Hapkido class is more of an elective of my Taekwondo school than it's own thing, and so in the past it has kind of come and gone.  (We're trying to be more dedicated to keeping it going now).  About 2 years ago, I started playing guitar, and after a few months switched to bass.  I have noticed that my fingers and wrists have an increase in:
> 
> ...


My guitar playing has never helped my wrists with my NGA (in many ways, similar to HKD). But then, my guitar playing has never really been beneficial to anyone - least of all, those who hear my attempts. 

Seriously, the fretwork, especially, probably does increase strength and stability in the wrist. At the same time, the repeated exposure to the HKD techniques over time (taking longer, because as you said it's not as consistent) does eventually strengthen, toughen, and limber the wrists so that they aren't as sore afterward. Even at my age, I can receive more wrist locks in a training session (without being sore the next day) than a 20-something beginner.


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## skribs (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My guitar playing has never helped my wrists with my NGA (in many ways, similar to HKD). But then, my guitar playing has never really been beneficial to anyone - least of all, those who hear my attempts.
> 
> Seriously, the fretwork, especially, probably does increase strength and stability in the wrist. At the same time, the repeated exposure to the HKD techniques over time (taking longer, because as you said it's not as consistent) does eventually strengthen, toughen, and limber the wrists so that they aren't as sore afterward. Even at my age, I can receive more wrist locks in a training session (without being sore the next day) than a 20-something beginner.



It's hard to pin down which was more beneficial - starting guitar, or practices becoming more consistent, because both happened around the same time.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

skribs said:


> It's hard to pin down which was more beneficial - starting guitar, or practices becoming more consistent, because both happened around the same time.


Likely both contributed some. Though I doubt the HKD training had much to do with any improvements in the guitar playing.


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## oftheherd1 (May 28, 2019)

That is interesting.  I never heard that complaint in the Hapkido I studied.  But then we did a lot stretching before beginning to practice techniques.  The stretching including a lot specifically directed towards the wrists.  Do you not do anything like that?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 28, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is interesting.  I never heard that complaint in the Hapkido I studied.  But then we did a lot stretching before beginning to practice techniques.  The stretching including a lot specifically directed towards the wrists.  Do you not do anything like that?


I see it mostly with new students in NGA (I know that's not what you asked, but you knew I was going to post something!). Most people haven't done anything that prepares the wrist for that. How you start into those exercises matters a lot as to how sore the wrist is afterward. Mostly, it depends who you work with the first few times - the lower the rank of your partner, usually the sorer the wrist (though there's some variability by individual).


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## oftheherd1 (May 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I see it mostly with new students in NGA (I know that's not what you asked, but you knew I was going to post something!). Most people haven't done anything that prepares the wrist for that. How you start into those exercises matters a lot as to how sore the wrist is afterward. Mostly, it depends who you work with the first few times - the lower the rank of your partner, usually the sorer the wrist (though there's some variability by individual).



I guess I can see that.  It is just that I never saw anyone complain about pain from our stretching exercises.  Mind you, they seem to have been designed to allow one to progress from no stretch to really good stretch without injury or pain.

I have learned one thing;  I would never have expected guitar playing to need so much stretch.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I see it mostly with new students in NGA (I know that's not what you asked, but you knew I was going to post something!). Most people haven't done anything that prepares the wrist for that. How you start into those exercises matters a lot as to how sore the wrist is afterward. Mostly, it depends who you work with the first few times - the lower the rank of your partner, usually the sorer the wrist (though there's some variability by individual).


While I don't necessarily qualify as new to grappling, I do it inconsistently enough, without wrist conditioning, that I feel I can comment on this. I've noticed the opposite of what you posted-in general the first few times when I'm getting back into it, the more experienced/higher ranked my partner, the sorer my wrists are later on. Lower ranked people tend not to know how much force to put on, so it takes them longer to actually "get" me, and they go through less reps. Higher ranked people tend to "get" me quickly so there are a lot of reps, and they know how much pressure they can apply without doing any serious damage, and go to that limit.

The only differences I could see are either a: because I do have experience, I know how to resist "properly", that may force the more experienced people to actually do the technique fully, where they might not on someone who doesn't know how to resist, or b: they're up for a bit of pain (for me) since they generally know at least some of my background and figure I can take it.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 29, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> I guess I can see that.  It is just that I never saw anyone complain about pain from our stretching exercises.  Mind you, they seem to have been designed to allow one to progress from no stretch to really good stretch without injury or pain.
> 
> I have learned one thing;  I would never have expected guitar playing to need so much stretch.


It's not the stretches - it's the techniques. I seem to get a bit less complaint (small sample size, so hard to be sure) now, since they don't get their first wrist lock until they've been training (and doing the wrist stretches) for a few weeks.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 29, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> While I don't necessarily qualify as new to grappling, I do it inconsistently enough, without wrist conditioning, that I feel I can comment on this. I've noticed the opposite of what you posted-in general the first few times when I'm getting back into it, the more experienced/higher ranked my partner, the sorer my wrists are later on. Lower ranked people tend not to know how much force to put on, so it takes them longer to actually "get" me, and they go through less reps. Higher ranked people tend to "get" me quickly so there are a lot of reps, and they know how much pressure they can apply without doing any serious damage, and go to that limit.
> 
> The only differences I could see are either a: because I do have experience, I know how to resist "properly", that may force the more experienced people to actually do the technique fully, where they might not on someone who doesn't know how to resist, or b: they're up for a bit of pain (for me) since they generally know at least some of my background and figure I can take it.


That's interesting. The first wrist lock a student gets (eloquently named "First Wrist Technique"), they learn immediately to apply it until their partner taps. Beginners (usually both partners) tend to wait longer to tap - waiting until they feel pain, rather than tapping when the joint begins to lock - and tend to apply with a sharp push at the end (which leads them to lock a bit harder and further). Experienced partners tend to tap out as soon as they know the lock is in place, and tend to move fast up to a point, then slow down to apply the final part with a beginner (since they know that beginner will wait too long to tap out).

Now, in application, it's closer to what you're talking about. Beginners struggle to find the end point and sometimes stop when they think it would lock (but it didn't), while an experienced person will take you right to it, get the lock, and sometimes release before you have a chance to tap. Or, if they're pleasantly sadistic that day, they'll practice controls from the lock.


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## oftheherd1 (May 29, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> While I don't necessarily qualify as new to grappling, I do it inconsistently enough, without wrist conditioning, that I feel I can comment on this. I've noticed the opposite of what you posted-in general the first few times when I'm getting back into it, the more experienced/higher ranked my partner, the sorer my wrists are later on. Lower ranked people tend not to know how much force to put on, so it takes them longer to actually "get" me, and they go through less reps. Higher ranked people tend to "get" me quickly so there are a lot of reps, and they know how much pressure they can apply without doing any serious damage, and go to that limit.
> 
> The only differences I could see are either a: because I do have experience, I know how to resist "properly", that may force the more experienced people to actually do the technique fully, where they might not on someone who doesn't know how to resist, or b: they're up for a bit of pain (for me) since they generally know at least some of my background and figure I can take it.



I learned very quickly to move my body with the application of the technique as I was tapping, or actually move into the expected result of the technique if that result wasn't a break or sprain.  I guess that helped me.



gpseymour said:


> It's not the stretches - it's the techniques. I seem to get a bit less complaint small sample size, so hard to be sure) now, since they don't get their first wrist lock until they've been training (and doing the wrist stretches) for a few weeks.



Interesting.  In the Hapkido I learned, we started off defending against wrist grabs and some of those defenses included a wrist lock.


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## skribs (May 29, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is interesting.  I never heard that complaint in the Hapkido I studied.  But then we did a lot stretching before beginning to practice techniques.  The stretching including a lot specifically directed towards the wrists.  Do you not do anything like that?



We stretch, yes.  We also practice 99% wrist locks in our Hapkido class, to the point where we tap out every single time.



> The first wrist lock a student gets (eloquently named "First Wrist Technique"), they learn immediately to apply it until their partner taps. Beginners (usually both partners) tend to wait longer to tap - waiting until they feel pain, rather than tapping when the joint begins to lock - and tend to apply with a sharp push at the end (which leads them to lock a bit harder and further). Experienced partners tend to tap out as soon as they know the lock is in place, and tend to move fast up to a point, then slow down to apply the final part with a beginner (since they know that beginner will wait too long to tap out).



I have noticed this in myself as well.  I was starting to feel guilty, that I wasn't pushing them hard enough, but you say this is normal?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 29, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> I learned very quickly to move my body with the application of the technique as I was tapping, or actually move into the expected result of the technique if that result wasn't a break or sprain.  I guess that helped me.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.  In the Hapkido I learned, we started off defending against wrist grabs and some of those defenses included a wrist lock.


That's a typical start in NGA, as well. I spend a few weeks establishing a foundation - a few escapes (no counter-techniques, so just how to force a grip release, for instance), elbows and knees, block/cover/guard in sparring (not allowed to hit back yet), learning falls and rolls, and that sort of thing. The idea is to get them some gross-motor tools before they are handed anything technical. It also starts building a set of "recovery" options - if a technique fails, beating them up is an option.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 29, 2019)

skribs said:


> We stretch, yes.  We also practice 99% wrist locks in our Hapkido class, to the point where we tap out every single time.
> 
> 
> 
> I have noticed this in myself as well.  I was starting to feel guilty, that I wasn't pushing them hard enough, but you say this is normal?


It's my preferred approach. I think there's more skill involved for the experienced practitioner in trying to get quickly and efficiently right to the point before the lock, then easing into the lock. And it means the partner can easily take more repetitions. I think there's enough "wrist conditioning" inherent in practicing this stuff, without me seeing how quickly I can put them in pain every time.


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## oftheherd1 (May 30, 2019)

skribs said:


> We stretch, yes.  We also practice 99% wrist locks in our Hapkido class, to the point where we tap out every single time.
> 
> 
> 
> I have noticed this in myself as well.  I was starting to feel guilty, that I wasn't pushing them hard enough, but you say this is normal?



That is interesting.  In the Hapkido I learned we studied 7 strikes to defend against a wrist grab, then 7 breaks (beginning grappling), then 7 throws.  We then move to clothing grab defenses and on we go.  I don't know that either one would be better than the other; both sound like they have advantages and disadvantages.

EDIT: That to clarify what I said above which is at the basic level.  For the striking defenses, there are no grappling defenses.  There is getting used to foot movement and moving in towards our opponent.

The stretching of course is done before every class.  Then we move into kicking which is both cardio and learning kicks.


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## skribs (May 30, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is interesting.  In the Hapkido I learned we studied 7 strikes to defend against a wrist grab, then 7 breaks (beginning grappling), then 7 throws.  We then move to clothing grab defenses and on we go.  I don't know that either one would be better than the other; both sound like they have advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> EDIT: That to clarify what I said above which is at the basic level.  For the striking defenses, there are no grappling defenses.  There is getting used to foot movement and moving in towards our opponent.
> 
> The stretching of course is done before every class.  Then we move into kicking which is both cardio and learning kicks.



The Hapkido at my school is more like an elective on top of our Taekwondo classes.  So we focus on what Hapkido does better than Taekwondo.


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## oftheherd1 (May 31, 2019)

skribs said:


> The Hapkido at my school is more like an elective on top of our Taekwondo classes.  So we focus on what Hapkido does better than Taekwondo.



Interesting concept.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> The Hapkido at my school is more like an elective on top of our Taekwondo classes.  So we focus on what Hapkido does better than Taekwondo.


There's an Aikido instructor in Washington state who teaches NGA that way. I keep meaning to go out there and visit him, see what he's doing with it.


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## skribs (Jun 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There's an Aikido instructor in Washington state who teaches NGA that way. I keep meaning to go out there and visit him, see what he's doing with it.



If you do that, swing by my dojang for a hapkido class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> If you do that, swing by my dojang for a hapkido class.


Absolutely!


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