# How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)



## Christian Soldier

So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?





Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.

I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions! 

The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.

And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.

I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?


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## Instructor

Unfortunately I can't watch youtube at the moment so I am not sure what you are seeing.

However I teach barricade style knife defense.  Grab a chair or any solid object and hold them at bay like a lion tamer.  Work the knees with kicks.  If they get past the barricade, control the knife hand and deliver blows to the throat, spine, knees, whatever deadly target you can reach.


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## bluewaveschool

Stepping backwards into into a downward stance, low X block on the wrist guiding the attacking hand away from his body.  Roll his wrist to bend him at the waist as to go for an armbar, but kick his knee as hard as you can, and ran.  However, this does put him in a position that he could wrap you up.  So maybe not the greatest.  Maybe instead X block and guide his hand across his own body.  Guide his hand upward at the same time, spinning with his hand into a horse/riding stance.  Bring his wrist downward to your own waist.  Unfortunately for him, the back of his elbow will meet up with your shoulder on the way down.  The elbow isn't suppose to bend that way.  Hopefully you won't throw up from the loud crunching of his elbow next to your ear.  I only see either working as a trained response, not something that you might pull off on the fly.  Tonight I'll see if they actually work when I get to class, one of the other instructors has a plastic knife.

I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull.  That is much less complicated.


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## bluewaveschool

Oh yeah, in that specific video, throw the jacket in his face and side step away from the knife, run like hell.


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## Cyriacus

bluewaveschool said:


> Oh yeah, in that specific video, throw the jacket in his face and side step away from the knife, run like hell.


Optionally, throw the jacket as You bolt off diagonally back and to Your right  Economy of fleeing/movement!

As for My family, if He suddenly stops chasing me and goes for Them, I can now attack Him from behind!
And if Theyre at home, and not there, I can run all the way Home and wait in Ambush.
If He is some kind of superhuman who can redirect from Me to My fleeing family members in a blink, I can still get up behind Him, because He inevitably cant go for both of Us. After all - You cant protect Them if Youre rolling on the ground in agony. You need to be alive to do that, and not getting stabbed is a good start.
If He backpedals away from Me towards Them, now Hes on the backstep, and I can rush Him, instead of it being the other way around.


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## Cyriacus

bluewaveschool said:


> Stepping backwards into into a downward stance, low X block on the wrist guiding the attacking hand away from his body.  Roll his wrist to bend him at the waist as to go for an armbar, but kick his knee as hard as you can, and ran.  However, this does put him in a position that he could wrap you up.  So maybe not the greatest.  Maybe instead X block and guide his hand across his own body.  Guide his hand upward at the same time, spinning with his hand into a horse/riding stance.  Bring his wrist downward to your own waist.  Unfortunately for him, the back of his elbow will meet up with your shoulder on the way down.  The elbow isn't suppose to bend that way.  Hopefully you won't throw up from the loud crunching of his elbow next to your ear.  I only see either working as a trained response, not something that you might pull off on the fly.  Tonight I'll see if they actually work when I get to class, one of the other instructors has a plastic knife.
> 
> I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull.  That is much less complicated.


Make sure You try it one lunge away from each other, with the attack coming in in about 1/3rd or less of a second, so that You can try to block the one thrust, then thumb the eye before He can do his 2nd or 3rd wild rapid thrust, assuming He doesnt just spontaneously collapse because His eye hurts


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## bluewaveschool

Hurts?  No I intend to literally blind him in that eye by shoving it into his skull, not just slightly pushing on it.


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## Cyriacus

bluewaveschool said:


> Hurts?  No I intend to literally blind him in that eye by shoving it into his skull, not just slightly pushing on it.


Im aware of this - But hurting His eye doesnt paralyse His arm.


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## MJS

Christian Soldier said:


> So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.
> 
> I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!
> 
> The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.
> 
> And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.
> 
> I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?



There was another clip posted on here, a while back, which depicted the same type of attack.  Guy doing the seminar picked a random student and had them do a technique.  He then asked him if he thought the tech was good, and then proceeded to pump the knife into him the same way we saw here. Needless to say, the tech went south fast.  And yes, in that clip I mentioned, I didn't see any solutions from the guy.  

Obviously the no brainer is to get the hell out of there.  However, that may not always be possible.  The next best option would be to grab something as an equalizer.  A rock, a chair, anything, and use it as a distraction, ie: tossing it at the guy and hauling *** in the other direction, or to strike with.  Last option of course, is hand to hand.  Of course keep in mind that you're probably going to get cut.  As for blocking....lets not forget that the badguy will most likely also be using his other hand.  How many times do we see the guy with the knife do a thrust or slash, and nothing more?  Someone skilled with the blade will be using their other hand as well.  So, that said, I"d avoid doing a fancy block, ie: downward or X type block.  Instead, I'd do whatever I could, to gain control of the weapon.  IMHO, control is the first thing you should worry about.  Gain control, work off balancing and counter-strikes, and then a disarm, if possible.  

One of my teachers has worked in Corrections for 20+yrs, so I'm always picking his brain about the knife/shank attacks that he's seen.  We've worked this many times during training.  More times than not, I'm getting 'cut' or 'slashed'.  However, I do my best to protect the vitals and gain control.  Of course, while I'm doing this, he's trying to regain control of the weapon, moving and throwing strikes.  Keeps it a bit more real.  

As for a visual reference....I like what these guys do.

[yt]kiNjFlfIQXI[/yt]


[yt]-_ZO17yWi7I[/yt]


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## Gnarlie

Attempt to chin the fellow with your best shot before he gets that free hand on you.  Hit the jawline below the corner of the mouth with a good square contact. Knock him out of possible. 

If that doesn't work, try to deflect the weapon arm whilst pushing on the back of the elbow of the arm gripping you and rotating your upper body to move that shoulder of the knife arm out of easy range.  This will be difficult while you are being slashed into strips. 

You'll get stabbed unless you successfully knock him out in the first second.   Everything after that is damage limitation and survival. 

You'd need to see it coming.   Not easy. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## oftheherd1

The defender starts off with a good idea but the coat should be thrown or rotated into the attackers eyes as mentioned by Cyriacus.  But I wouldn't likely throw it and run.  I'm not that fast a runner as when I was young (still pretty good on short bursts though.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)

But knife defense it problematic, as is any weapon defense.  It must be practised constantly against an opponent who really wishes to score against you.  The best defense is to avoid the attack if possible.  When you can't, depending on the type of knife attack, thrust, overhead, right to left, left to right, one must pick a correct defense and use it quickly and forcefully.  One must see how the knife is held also.  Many of the things mentioned above are good considerations also.

One defense is to step forward (diagonally) to his strong side (side he is holding the knife with), blocking down and side as you turn towards him (with your arm on that side) to deflect his arm.  Simultaneously strike his upper arm muscle, close to the bone, with a dragon fist (middle finger protruding from your fist) with your non-blocking arm.  Hopefully, you may cause him to drop his knife due to pain.  At the least, he will probably give you a split second to consider other options while he adjusts his attack to your new angle.  This is a good defense to sudden unexpected attacks, where you have little manuever room.  

Since in this case there is warning, perhaps a better one is the same step, turning towards the attacker, but blocking and grabbing his forarm with your arm on the same side as the knife, allowing your hand to slide to his wrist where you grab with all your strength.  Simultaneously, and as he pulls back, grab his wrist with your other hand, and jerk his wrist and arm back and to the outside, applying pressure to the back of the wrist with your thumbs, breaking the wrist.

Always be ready for something not to work and to move as rapidly or more so, than your attacker, to block, grab, or retreat.


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## Bill Mattocks

Christian Soldier said:


> I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!



Attend a seminar by Sensei John Kerker and ask.  You will receive answers and solutions.  I did.  I did my very best to perform the 'prison rush' knife attack.  My 'attack' failed in spectacular fashion.  I would love to describe it to you, but I, as uke, did not get a lot of opportunity to practice it.  It was during the end-of-seminar Q&A.  But I did understand, very clearly, that a defense is possible and practical.

There will be a seminar on August 10th and 11th in Carson, IA.  All ranks and styles are invited.  I am not involved, this is not an advertisement - just a recommendation.


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## bluewaveschool

Nothing good ever comes to western Kentucky/Southern Indiana.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*The number one* thing against a bum rush, prison style shanking is to get off line!  If you stay on the line the other persons forward movement will overtake you eventually.  That does not mean you are done just that now your inside where the knife is and you have more issues to deal with.  If you are able to get off line you have the opportunity to strike and gain control and while you can do that from the inside you have more wiggle room for error on the outside.  There is no guarantee when you are faced with someone with any weapon/tool.  However, there is always a chance to turn the table and that should be your mindset whether it is running away, placing some thing between you and the knife, picking up and object or a tool or simply shooting them!  Bottom line you need to be aware that things like this can happen and that you have a chance for survival!  Take your chance and turn it into your advantage!


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## Gentle Fist

Two to the chest and one to the head...  Oh wait are we allowed to be armed?


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## Rich Parsons

Christian Soldier said:


> So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?



The first mistake was awareness by the defender. He did not realize it was in the left hand. The second was to have two hands tied up on one thing. This may work if it is long and being used to keep range, but soft flexible weapons are not good against the committed attacker who is willing to take a shot going in. 




Christian Soldier said:


> Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.



Even in this situation running may not get you away. I know you said not to be considered, but I am saying it might not be a valid solution all the time. One to consider yes, but if they are faster, or surprise you you might be too late. Even though they had their coat of and preparing to use it as defense. 



Christian Soldier said:


> I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!



I have taught beginning techniques before, and people then ask what would I do. It is different, yet not completely. It requires a better timing, using both hands at once, and being aware of the situation and surroundings. 

I have taught basic knife defense. That is defense with the knife against the attacker. I can take a total beginner and get them to survive a lot longer than expected. So, the best weapon for self defense against a knife is another knife. NOTE: In all situations where one was pulled on me though, I have never had the time to access, clear and deploy the weapon, while there was a threat. If there is not threat and you deploy have changed the level of force and others can react accordingly. 

The point is that you need to start somewhere, and learn basics, and apply the principals to your training and get better and then learn more to improve your odds of survival. Which is why most people who are willing to do some basic training and are serious concerned about this they spend the time with a firearm. Less time and overall skill set required to improve odds of survival. 



Christian Soldier said:


> The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.



You will do what you train, and if you cannot remember it , then you may not be able to train it. 



Christian Soldier said:


> And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.



The sensitivity is key. It really is. It will help you in reading your opponent and their reactions. 




Christian Soldier said:


> I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?



In this particular case, you step right as he is left handed. You place your left hand down, kind of like a down block, but is meant to cam his thrusting arm off line as you are also stepping. i.e. get the heck out of the way and move the blade off line. And yes, you can draw cut back, but this demo did not show this he just kept on thrusting. With the right hand you reach out and check just above their elbow. Then the left hand does what you are trained to do for causing pain. I prefer, a hand jab to throat, and or a finger jab to the eyes. This gets them off balance as you have attacked their eyes or breathing. If they know anything they will access you as someone to not make that mistake again with. Yet, they usually come at you with their best shot. So you hope while you are either staying on their elbow or clearing for room, I prefer staying, they realize they have made a mistake and need to not be where they currently are. Hopefully they decide to leave you alone. If not you keep up and try to cause pain back. Note: Defense only will get you walking backwards and they will keep coming until you make a mistake. If you cause them pain or injury then they may think twice. 

Yet, as stated the person who is willing to take pain and or die to get to you is almost impossible to stop, unless you stop them first.


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## bluewaveschool

Ok, so we played around with this in the parking lot after class tonight.  The X block, while effective at trapping and keeping the hand with the knife, requires a great deal of timing.  We decided that a punch/spear finger to the throat would be quicker than attacking the eye, though enough damage to either area would likely get them to drop the knife.  The best we came up with was to step off line, throw a hard knee into the ribs and follow with sidekick to the knee.  End it with a strike to the head.  I'd just re-chamber the sidekick and fire that into their skull.

Someone mentioned shoot him.  If you honestly have the speed to draw and fire before the attacker covers that short distance, then we need to change your name to the Waco Kid.


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## Cyriacus

bluewaveschool said:


> Ok, so we played around with this in the parking lot after class tonight.  The X block, while effective at trapping and keeping the hand with the knife, requires a great deal of timing.  We decided that a punch/spear finger to the throat would be quicker than attacking the eye, though enough damage to either area would likely get them to drop the knife.  The best we came up with was to step off line, throw a hard knee into the ribs and follow with sidekick to the knee.  End it with a strike to the head.  I'd just re-chamber the sidekick and fire that into their skull.
> 
> Someone mentioned shoot him.  If you honestly have the speed to draw and fire before the attacker covers that short distance, then we need to change your name to the Waco Kid.



I wouldnt rely on the spear finger throat ending it - Unless you feel like being stabbed under the arm.
Punch to the throat? Sure - Again, if You can get it off before being stabbed in the arm or under it. But punching at the throat is fine.
They probably wont drop the knife, but it ought to get them trying to grapple You, rather than furiously swinging Their arm, and thats progress.

Kneeing them in the ribs is good if You can get into that position. Not so much because of the knee, but because it means Youre right up with them, and You can likely restrain Their arm from that range. Possible by pinching their wrist with Your forearm. 
But why sidekick the knee, when You could just stomp on it from that range? Since Youre close enough to knee them, You should be able to drive their knee back and lean into it, possibly putting them on their back. Then just get on top of them with your knee on their armed elbow and the other locked out over their torso, and start punching. It seems a bit more practical than turning to either side, limiting Your defensive options if this fellow does something you didnt expect, or if something fails to work. Sure, you could rechamber and kick high, but this still assumes Hes paralysed by fear for some reason.

And i completely agree that shooting them would be futile


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## Cyriacus

And i just realised i totally forgot to mention how i think a good way to defend it might be.

Im not sure what the block is called, but you step out with, say, the left foot. You hold your left arm out straight (directionally), but bend it 90 degrees downward at the elbow. So if looked at from your right, it looks like your arm is forming a square with no bottom, with from your elbow down on the right, from your elbow to your shoulder on top, your palm facing away, and your body as the left side. Thats the best description ive got. The right arm comes across like a normal palm block, just in front of your elbow. Now, of course this isnt completely vertical in front of your body. The whole thing is slanted. (I cant find any photos. I figure SOMEONE has to know what its called)
Assuming you block the arm, you use the right hand to grab around the head, and the right leg to knee the body whilst the left hand hopefully prevents them from stabbing you (For the sake of the example, were assuming the attacker is right handed. If not, reverse all my directional names).
You could also do something comparable to an armbar.

Please, someone know the name of that block!

EDIT: Its also kinda like a low guard in boxing, where one hand is at the chin and the other is down at the hip. Only with palms, and off to the side.


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## 72ronin

There is a very good reason why this question will continue to be asked for years to come. Because there is no single tech that will ever be ranked No1 (or 2 or 3..) for knife defense. 

We can find numerous vids of security cam footage showing all kind of things, usually extreme damage and or death, but what is the common denominator.. Absolutely every successful survival has involved a ferocious fightback - no exception.
Which is exactly why once the good teachers show you how almost impossible it really is to execute your movie-fu, they go on to drill - (well, many things but most importantly) exsplosive action on your part.

Easy to write down, damn hard to execute when your body isnt cooperating. Our first battle is in our minds believe it or not, you cannot hesitate, you gotta go and go bloody hard - tooth and nail!. Thats the most important thing you will have in your arsenal, not defense, arsenal. thats my 2 cents lol.

Always good to see this question come up though, because i think it has cross-over to the whole spectrum of self-defense, not just weapons. Train like your life depends on it 
cheers.


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## Christian Soldier

Yeah I was pretty much thinking mostly the same things as you guys. Basically get off line, control the weapon, strike to distract him (eyes, throat, or groin), and then some kind of take down/arm bar, then run.  

I think the best knife technique I've seen was in a Military manual, which basically just said grab their arm, get them in an arm bar, and put all you body weight and effort on that arm untill they are flat on they stomach. It requires a little more distance than in this vid but it's incredibly simple and can be easily modded for versatility.

I just got an idea to drill this! 

Allright, so the first thing you teach is to get off line. So you give each pair a short pool noodle or a traning knife and have one person go full force with the thrusts, and have the defenadant move offline. After they get this concept you need to teach them to control the weapon. So you have them step off line and grab. Then you have them grab and react with a strike. And finally you have the attacker go all out and have them grab, react, and take down (arm bar type takedowns only). 

If you wanted to make it a little more difficult for the more advanced students, you can have the attacker put the knife in the other hand, give the attacker two knives, or have two knife armed attackers that alternate attacking.


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## chinto

MJS said:


> There was another clip posted on here, a while back, which depicted the same type of attack.  Guy doing the seminar picked a random student and had them do a technique.  He then asked him if he thought the tech was good, and then proceeded to pump the knife into him the same way we saw here. Needless to say, the tech went south fast.  And yes, in that clip I mentioned, I didn't see any solutions from the guy.
> 
> Obviously the no brainer is to get the hell out of there.  However, that may not always be possible.  The next best option would be to grab something as an equalizer.  A rock, a chair, anything, and use it as a distraction, ie: tossing it at the guy and hauling *** in the other direction, or to strike with.  Last option of course, is hand to hand.  Of course keep in mind that you're probably going to get cut.  As for blocking....lets not forget that the badguy will most likely also be using his other hand.  How many times do we see the guy with the knife do a thrust or slash, and nothing more?  Someone skilled with the blade will be using their other hand as well.  So, that said, I"d avoid doing a fancy block, ie: downward or X type block.  Instead, I'd do whatever I could, to gain control of the weapon.  IMHO, control is the first thing you should worry about.  Gain control, work off balancing and counter-strikes, and then a disarm, if possible.
> 
> One of my teachers has worked in Corrections for 20+yrs, so I'm always picking his brain about the knife/shank attacks that he's seen.  We've worked this many times during training.  More times than not, I'm getting 'cut' or 'slashed'.  However, I do my best to protect the vitals and gain control.  Of course, while I'm doing this, he's trying to regain control of the weapon, moving and throwing strikes.  Keeps it a bit more real.
> 
> As for a visual reference....I like what these guys do.
> 
> [yt]kiNjFlfIQXI[/yt]
> 
> 
> [yt]-_ZO17yWi7I[/yt]



ok see if this thing works this time!! 


Ok I like what I am seeing in the video's  get control of the weapon and arm and then get very very aggressive!!  A knife is at close range usually more deadly then a gun!  people with knives make sure your dead !!    

I like what was called the Barrier defense, much as taught by Col. Rex Applegate and W.E. Fairbairn and O'neil in the second world war and after!  get something between you and the weapon, throw something in his face! ( car keys are remarkably effective .. throw a ring of them hard at a milk jug... see the holes! )  use a chair... if you do not have these things, get control of the weapon and arm!  Then get down to doing as much damage as fast as you can! the more lethal the better!!!!!!  but you better be looking at killing preferably, and crippling permanently if not killing in seconds!  people with knives are serious about killing and maiming you... and live steel will do  that fast!


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## Buka

You train against that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall.


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## Chris Parker

Christian Soldier said:


> So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.
> 
> I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!
> 
> The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.
> 
> And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.
> 
> I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?



Firstly, I don't know that I'd agree that that is the most common form of knife assault... I'd suggest that, more commonly, they occur from a lot closer, and are commonly ambushes, rather than rushes along these lines. Which is, honestly, even harder to defend against. 

In terms of defence against it, though, well, have solid training principles and work them so that you can apply them, regardless of the technique you're attacked with. The idea of having a "technique" to deal with it, though, I'd disagree with.



bluewaveschool said:


> Stepping backwards into into a downward stance, low X block on the wrist guiding the attacking hand away from his body.  Roll his wrist to bend him at the waist as to go for an armbar, but kick his knee as hard as you can, and ran.  However, this does put him in a position that he could wrap you up.  So maybe not the greatest.  Maybe instead X block and guide his hand across his own body.  Guide his hand upward at the same time, spinning with his hand into a horse/riding stance.  Bring his wrist downward to your own waist.  Unfortunately for him, the back of his elbow will meet up with your shoulder on the way down.  The elbow isn't suppose to bend that way.  Hopefully you won't throw up from the loud crunching of his elbow next to your ear.  I only see either working as a trained response, not something that you might pull off on the fly.  Tonight I'll see if they actually work when I get to class, one of the other instructors has a plastic knife.
> 
> I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull.  That is much less complicated.



Hmm. Honestly, good luck with that.... 



MJS said:


> There was another clip posted on here, a while back, which depicted the same type of attack.  Guy doing the seminar picked a random student and had them do a technique.  He then asked him if he thought the tech was good, and then proceeded to pump the knife into him the same way we saw here. Needless to say, the tech went south fast.  And yes, in that clip I mentioned, I didn't see any solutions from the guy.


 
Hey, Mike,

I believe you are talking about this clip (warning, Deane is an Aussie, and very much a reality-based instructor, so there's a bit of language involved...):






I've trained under Deane before, and this is not as nasty as it gets from him! Solutions, though (mainly in approach, rather than technique, as Deane, being an RBSD instructor, isn't there to teach techniques.. that's what your martial arts are for, according to him).


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## WingChunIan

I don't teach different defences to knife attacks than for empty hand attacks as quite frankly when it kicks off you haven't got time to work out what type of attack you are facing and the weapon could easily be concealed. With regard to the original clip, the defender should react to the intial danger ie the none knife weilding hand as it enters their space. Moving forward and  to the outside of the attackers lead arm and simultaneously attacking the head / eyes / throat with the hardest shot that you have seeking to either shut them down instantly (in the case of the throat strike) or else inflict bucket loads of damage and disrupt the balance and posture at the same time is what I teach my guys. I then like to take control of the head with a quick crank / wheel and smash the guy backwards into the floor head first with an optional knee to the kidneys / spine or kick to the back of the knee. IMHO you have to shut the opponent down as quickly as possible to minimise your risk of damage whether or not they are tooled up.


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## Cyriacus

Chris Parker said:


> I'd suggest that, more commonly, they occur from a lot closer, and are commonly ambushes, rather than rushes along these lines. Which is, honestly, even harder to defend against.



And thats what almost everyone here seems to be blissfully forgetting, or not being aware of.

Or just not understanding.


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## 72ronin

Yeah, thats the thing, if someone really wants to stab you they will be your best mate (talking and close range) right up untill the first strike hits home. 
Generaly, before anything gets that far, keeping a loose 45 angle and controlling the movement/dominating the exchange range etc that kind of thing will keep you in good position, which is important imo. Thats what really stands out with the Deane Lawler clip, as we can see, once you have lost position and attacked/overwhelmed its all over.

Definately a case of prevention being better than the cure with this stuff, that means switched on, and constantly dominating angle's, which doesnt have to be terribly obvious (like strict 45 all times or anything) just work it into the way you operate etc


----------



## Cyriacus

72ronin said:


> Yeah, thats the thing, if someone really wants to stab you they will be your best mate (talking and close range) right up untill the first strike hits home.
> Generaly, before anything gets that far, keeping a loose 45 angle and controlling the movement/dominating the exchange range etc that kind of thing will keep you in good position, which is important imo. Thats what really stands out with the Deane Lawler clip, as we can see, once you have lost position and attacked/overwhelmed its all over.
> 
> Definately a case of prevention being better than the cure with this stuff, that means switched on, and constantly dominating angle's, which doesnt have to be terribly obvious (like strict 45 all times or anything) just work it into the way you operate etc


So every time someone walks near me i should offset myself 45 degrees just incase They try to furiously shank Me?

Of course, if approached and spoken to, I consider it a good idea to offset Yourself a bit anyway. Not so much for self defense, but for general awareness.


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## 72ronin

hahaha "furiously shank me" love it,

No not a nervous constant 45 at all costs! 
You know what i mean


----------



## Cyriacus

72ronin said:


> hahaha "furiously shank me" love it,
> 
> No not a nervous constant 45 at all costs!
> You know what i mean



Yes, yes I do

:lurk:


----------



## pgsmith

While knife defense is always an interesting subject with several different ideas on the best approach, the question has to be asked ... how many here (that aren't in law enforcement, which is a whole other approach to things) have actually been attacked by a knife wielding attacker? How many have even seen a knife attack? Knife attacks happen in a very specific environment. I don't known anyone that got attacked just wandering around the local shopping mall. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very bad part of town, I've only ever been involved in one knife attack. In that instance, I hit him with the tire iron I was carrying because I knew I was going alone (potential victim status) into a dangerous area. 

  If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family.

  Just my thoughts on it.


----------



## Blindside

pgsmith said:


> If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family. Just my thoughts on it.


 
	Yes I agree the odds are small.  OK, then what, is your point that you shouldn&#39;t train for it?  That this discussion is pointless or so silly it shouldn&#39;t have been made?  I haven&#39;t run into a knife in SD situation before, machete yes, knife no, and arguably the machete should be less likely than the knife.  I have had students that have had knife issues as civilians, and I have students that are LE.  Good thing I can provide them with some useful and potentially lifesaving information.


----------



## Rich Parsons

pgsmith said:


> While knife defense is always an interesting subject with several different ideas on the best approach, the question has to be asked ... how many here (that aren't in law enforcement, which is a whole other approach to things) have actually been attacked by a knife wielding attacker? How many have even seen a knife attack? Knife attacks happen in a very specific environment. I don't known anyone that got attacked just wandering around the local shopping mall. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very bad part of town, I've only ever been involved in one knife attack. In that instance, I hit him with the tire iron I was carrying because I knew I was going alone (potential victim status) into a dangerous area.
> 
> If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family.
> 
> Just my thoughts on it.



Cut, right forearm
Stabbed Right Thigh
Lots of others I was able to redirect or present an improvised weapon to make them think other things had better options. 
Been Shot at. 
Lots of Baseball Bats.
Lots of golf clubs
Tire irons.
taser / Cattle prods
Hit by vehicles
Gone through window
Multiple attackers ( the norm )

And no I did not work as a LEO, which will make all LEO's ask WTF what gang did he belong too? Unique situation, I can explain the incidents. 

You seem with your last statement to trivialize what most will call common sense. 
Here are many situations that we all have seen, lived, or know our family and loved have done:

Cut someone off by accident and instead of just giving a timid hand wave when they pass you, they flip them off or drive aggressively. 

People will take the short cut through a bad part of town low on gas, with a bad tire or with a poorly running vehicle.

Walking into a place of business which is known for high crime (The mall) and ignore lights and parking and door access, and just assume they are safe with out.

Yelling at some guy or group of guys because they think they are safe with their boyfriend or friends present. 

The list goes on. 

Paying attention and doing maintenance on a vehicle and traveling smart even if out of the way are not common and this leads to people being in bad situations as when it goes bad they are surprised that they are no longer safe.


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## Marcy Shoberg

Although I am not answering the question that the person who started this thread actually asked, I have studied and taught quite a bit of knife defense (but never been attacked by anyone with a knife) and have decided that the techniques in the book by the founder of Krav Maga (Imi Lichenfeld) seem the best to me. For anyone who is unsatisfied with the techniques they have previously been taught about defending against a person with a knife, I would recommend that book.  It also covers gun and stick attacks, too.  I'm sure people on this list will question the validity of my opinion, since I have never tested them when attacked.  All I can say to that is read the book, it's good stuff.  I think it's called "defending against armed assaults," but am not sure.  I keep it at my dojang and refer to it frequently in my self-defense classes, but use my computer at home. 
The best thing about the book, is that it gives the student a response to very very many possible attacks and stationary threats from all sorts of angles including from behind and the side.  I've read it about 5 times. It's good stuff.


----------



## Christian Soldier

Yeah, there was a Turkey Hill (local gas station that I frequent) just down the road aways from where I am that was held a knife point just the other day. Now granted there are probably a lot more knife hold ups than attacks, but there are still knife armed belligerents and those hold ups can 'go wrong' easily. Rich pretty much said it all, it can happen. And it's best to know what to do in the event it does. Awareness should definitely be your first defence in any SD sceneraio.


----------



## MJS

Chris Parker said:


> Firstly, I don't know that I'd agree that that is the most common form of knife assault... I'd suggest that, more commonly, they occur from a lot closer, and are commonly ambushes, rather than rushes along these lines. Which is, honestly, even harder to defend against.
> 
> In terms of defence against it, though, well, have solid training principles and work them so that you can apply them, regardless of the technique you're attacked with. The idea of having a "technique" to deal with it, though, I'd disagree with.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Honestly, good luck with that....
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, Mike,
> 
> I believe you are talking about this clip (warning, Deane is an Aussie, and very much a reality-based instructor, so there's a bit of language involved...):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've trained under Deane before, and this is not as nasty as it gets from him! Solutions, though (mainly in approach, rather than technique, as Deane, being an RBSD instructor, isn't there to teach techniques.. that's what your martial arts are for, according to him).



Hey Chris,

Yes, thanks, that is the clip I was talking about!   I'm in agreement with what you said regarding the way the initial clip was shown.  Most of the knife attacks that've happened in my area, have consisted of a few stabs and mainly slashes.  The rapid fire, pumping style that we see is more common in prisons.  As for the 'techniques'...again, I agree.  I view it just like empty hand SD.  The 'techs' that we see, IMO, are simply examples.  IMO, I dont view them as set in stone things, but instead, we should be using various principles.  

Out of curiosity, since you've trained with Deane, what were some of the solutions that he talked about?


----------



## MJS

pgsmith said:


> While knife defense is always an interesting subject with several different ideas on the best approach, the question has to be asked ... how many here (that aren't in law enforcement, which is a whole other approach to things) have actually been attacked by a knife wielding attacker? How many have even seen a knife attack? Knife attacks happen in a very specific environment. I don't known anyone that got attacked just wandering around the local shopping mall. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very bad part of town, I've only ever been involved in one knife attack. In that instance, I hit him with the tire iron I was carrying because I knew I was going alone (potential victim status) into a dangerous area.
> 
> If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family.
> 
> Just my thoughts on it.



IMHO, I dont think that the topic of knife defense is something that should be ignored.  The usual catch phrase for things like this, as well as empty hand SD is, "Well, the odds of it happening are slim to none."  To that, I disagree.  Unless we live in a bubble or on some island in the middle of nowhere, there is always a risk of getting attacked.  Oh, and here's something that happened at a shopping mall.
http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/stabbing-meriden-mall-food-court

Have I been attacked by a knife?  Nope, not yet.  However, since I like to follow the motto of 'better to know it and not need it, than to not know it, and wish you did.' I do enjoy working knife defense and make it as realistic as possible.  Have I seen a knife attack?  Prison footage.

Yes, area will be a factor.  Hartford, Ct...yeah, there's a shooting pretty much every night, some stabbings too.  My small town, which is about 20min south of Hartford...yeah, we've had purse snatchings, armed robberies, etc.  IMO, just because the town or area may appear to be good, doesnt mean that something bad can't or won't happen.


----------



## Chris Parker

MJS said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Yes, thanks, that is the clip I was talking about!   I'm in agreement with what you said regarding the way the initial clip was shown.  Most of the knife attacks that've happened in my area, have consisted of a few stabs and mainly slashes.  The rapid fire, pumping style that we see is more common in prisons.  As for the 'techniques'...again, I agree.  I view it just like empty hand SD.  The 'techs' that we see, IMO, are simply examples.  IMO, I dont view them as set in stone things, but instead, we should be using various principles.
> 
> Out of curiosity, since you've trained with Deane, what were some of the solutions that he talked about?



Mostly the same stuff we do in my classes, actually. Minimize your potential for injury firstly by being aware of potential attackers, then by creating a barrier between your body and the attacking weapon, even if that is just your own arms. As soon as possible, take control of the weapon arm, and from there you can start to apply your techniques (whether that was overwhelming strikes for those with a striking background, or locking/breaking for those with more of a grappling background, and so on). The big thing he emphasized, though, was very much just being able to survive the initial assault, both by recognizing that the attacker won't stop for you to apply whatever you want, and by understanding the adrenaline you're going to experience, and how to deal with that. I don't think he wanted to give "answers", as much as he wanted to provide the skills that would allow the answers provided by the participants own martial training to have a chance.


----------



## pgsmith

> Yes I agree the odds are small. OK, then what, is your point that you shouldn't train for it? That this discussion is pointless or so silly it shouldn't have been made? I haven't run into a knife in SD situation before, machete yes, knife no, and arguably the machete should be less likely than the knife. I have had students that have had knife issues as civilians, and I have students that are LE. Good thing I can provide them with some useful and potentially lifesaving information.


    Not at all where I was going with it. This post is what I was aiming at ...


> Paying attention and doing maintenance on a vehicle and traveling smart even if out of the way are not common and this leads to people being in bad situations as when it goes bad they are surprised that they are no longer safe.


  These things _should_ be common and taught as the first and most important line of self defense. Awareness should always be the first thing taught whenever knife defense comes up. I was simply pointing out that if people are aware and thinking, they should never get in a situation where they are unarmed against a knife wielding attacker. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be trained for, just that it's far better to just not screw up in the first place!  I've come across way too many people that arrogantly assume they know something, so don't worry about guarding against having to use it.


----------



## bluewaveschool

So my first thought of a x block was met with a 'ehh.....' I picked up Black Belt Magazine told for the first time in 15 years for the article on Hee-Il Cho, and flipping through it I find another article - "Project X - Why you need to revisit the traditional x-block for your self defense needs"  Interesting article, makes some good points on how to use it (not against knife though) effectively.


----------



## Dolev

You need to be aware of your attacker, with this much distance you wanna focus on his feet and upper body, there will be a small twitch before he takes off at that moment take a kicking stance and focus on the knife, best chance is to side step, grab his wrist, pull, kick, knock him over and knee the knife out of his hand and kill him. In a real life situation knock him down and try disorienting him while you run away to a public area.


----------



## Cyriacus

Dolev said:


> You need to be aware of your attacker, with this much distance you wanna focus on his feet and upper body, there will be a small twitch before he takes off at that moment take a kicking stance and focus on the knife, best chance is to side step, grab his wrist, pull, kick, knock him over and knee the knife out of his hand and kill him. In a real life situation knock him down and try disorienting him while you run away to a public area.


In the video, the defender was aware of the attack coming, and had His jacket pre-prepared in His hands. It doesnt get much better than that.


----------



## Dolev

Let me rephrase the look at his footwork and shoulders. Furthermore the guy did nothing with the jacket he could've used a silat scarf move which would immobilize the attackers hand. There are many factors as to what will happen when attacked. Is he trained, how well imbued is his muscle memory (from a reaction time of 1.5 seconds a well trained individuals can react as fast as 0.015 seconds) and experience; how experienced is the guy in street fights, seems to me he had none (doesn't look like a brawling type of guy).


----------



## Cyriacus

Dolev said:


> Let me rephrase the look at his footwork and shoulders. Furthermore the guy did nothing with the jacket he could've used a silat scarf move which would immobilize the attackers hand. There are many factors as to what will happen when attacked. Is he trained, how well imbued is his muscle memory (from a reaction time of 1.5 seconds a well trained individuals can react as fast as 0.015 seconds) and experience; how experienced is the guy in street fights, seems to me he had none (doesn't look like a brawling type of guy).


Hehe.
Ok.
1: He had under half a second to react to a guy rushing Him. Wrapping something like that around someones arm relies on seeing it coming, then reacting faster than it can get to you. His arms would need to be wrapping that wrist within roughly 2/5ths of a second. Lets assume He has a reaction time of 0.001 seconds, and has ALL that time to do it. Good luck, have fun.
2: Is He trained? Sure, thats a factor. How well inbued is His muscle memory? See above. How experienced is He in Street Fights? 
Is that the part where Youre the hardened street warrior? If Youre not, cool. If You 'are', have fun with that, along with the 2/5ths of a second if not less jacket around the arm.

His Footwork is CHARGE, and His Shoulders and Arms are Stabbing. Even if it was telegraphed, the attack aint going to be slower as a result. Its the same attack, and the person here literally knew the attack was coming, from which hand, and so on.
In a real knife attack, You likely wont see the guy coming until Hes just about ready to rush You, let alone which Hand the knife is in, and how He plants to stab You, how long the knife is, and apparently Your jacket is conveniently in Your hands for just such an occasion.


----------



## 72ronin

bluewaveschool said:


> So my first thought of a x block was met with a 'ehh.....' I picked up Black Belt Magazine told for the first time in 15 years for the article on Hee-Il Cho, and flipping through it I find another article - "Project X - Why you need to revisit the traditional x-block for your self defense needs" Interesting article, makes some good points on how to use it (not against knife though) effectively.




For me, the timing is wrong for it. Imagine the level of dedication on the attackers thrust needed to make our x-block (leading to whatever) effective? Huge.

Next time your sparring, try to catch a punch with x-block and then work for something, you might catch one if your lucky. And on top of that you would have to be even luckier to be able to work from it to whatever you want from there if your getting any decent amount of resistance.
You should find It only suits an extremely over commited straight thrust. 

And to be honest, even then i dont see why you would want to commit yourself to that position, if you fail you are exactly where he expects/wants you to be (you remained in front of) for his next shot, and you have probably lost the timing and movement advantage aswell.


----------



## bluewaveschool

Interestingly, only one example in the article used the X-Block in the traditional 'catch a punch' .  Also, in a later post in this thread I did say that after working on it with another instructor, we decided it was somewhat viable, but certainly not the best defense we came up with.


----------



## Dolev

Cyriacus said:


> Hehe.
> Ok.
> 1: He had under half a second to react to a guy rushing Him. Wrapping something like that around someones arm relies on seeing it coming, then reacting faster than it can get to you. His arms would need to be wrapping that wrist within roughly 2/5ths of a second. Lets assume He has a reaction time of 0.001 seconds, and has ALL that time to do it. Good luck, have fun.
> 2: Is He trained? Sure, thats a factor. How well inbued is His muscle memory? See above. How experienced is He in Street Fights?
> Is that the part where Youre the hardened street warrior? If Youre not, cool. If You 'are', have fun with that, along with the 2/5ths of a second if not less jacket around the arm.
> 
> His Footwork is CHARGE, and His Shoulders and Arms are Stabbing. Even if it was telegraphed, the attack aint going to be slower as a result. Its the same attack, and the person here literally knew the attack was coming, from which hand, and so on.
> In a real knife attack, You likely wont see the guy coming until Hes just about ready to rush You, let alone which Hand the knife is in, and how He plants to stab You, how long the knife is, and apparently Your jacket is conveniently in Your hands for just such an occasion.


HAHAHA, man I love you. You're really knowledgeable, I'm not.
 Hardened street fighter, I'm 16 in the very few brawls I was in there were no knives involved maybe a bat at most and that's when you run. Anyways I think he could've utilized the bursting techniques used in krav maga. I mean considering you're the idiot who put your family in danger There isn't much of an argument to be made. Knives are dangerous, beating an armed opponent needs more than skill, you need luck. Wrapping the opponent is near impossible but what a about usin the jacket as a whip. Stabbing motions are usually circular, put together with a charge your opponent won't be expecting you to charge in close. So how about charging in and grabbing his wrist while turning and executing a throw, the turnig is so you have a better view at the knife since he will hug and hammer away at your back. 

I like your challenges they make me think of other possible ways of why I should run when confronted with an armed opponent


----------



## Cyriacus

Dolev said:


> HAHAHA, man I love you. You're really knowledgeable, I'm not.



Without sounding egotistical, the important thing is that Youre not taking the approach some people take of declaring themselves right no matter what. Cheers 



> Hardened street fighter, I'm 16 in the very few brawls I was in there were no knives involved maybe a bat at most and that's when you run.


Fairly standard then - Thats good.



> Anyways I think he could've utilized the bursting techniques used in krav maga. I mean considering you're the idiot who put your family in danger There isn't much of an argument to be made. Knives are dangerous, beating an armed opponent needs more than skill, you need luck.


And fitness. Speed kills when it comes to being at a disadvantage. The problem is the backstep. Its hard to not be sent careening backward when someone rushes forward. Which is why sidestepping exists - To try and avoid being ploughed back. Now, it is possible to power out using a linear charge against a linear charge, but the problem then is that it can come down to luck. Whatll happen first? Will You hit the guy 1-4ish times effectively in the head, or will he cut your arms up and leave you with burst arteries (Such as the one near the elbow) and a few thrusts to the lungs? Unarmed it makes sense, but armed, not so much. Luck certainly helps, but the other thing that helps is excluding all the stuff that will get You into trouble. Like taking one step backward.



> Wrapping the opponent is near impossible but what a about usin the jacket as a whip.


A whip sounds good in theory, but can you whip a jacket as fast as someone can thrust their arm? Get a fork and a piece of paper. Hold the paper out in front of you, then jab it with the fork as fast as you can. Now go get a jacket and whip it as fast as you can at the arm of a chair hard enough to move the chair. Because a forward moving arm is probably even harder to move than that 



> Stabbing motions are usually circular,


Semi-Circular, but sure, lets go with that.



> put together with a charge your opponent won't be expecting you to charge in close. So how about charging in and grabbing his wrist while turning and executing a throw, the turnig is so you have a better view at the knife since he will hug and hammer away at your back.


Because moving in just puts you closer to the knife. And considering this is probably gonna happen from 1-3ish steps away, You moving toward the knife isnt wise. Moving sideways remains a superior option. Also, avoid saying "He will". Say You ran straight in, and stopped His full bore forward charge with your 1/2 to 1 step forward and grab the wrist. His other arm will probably go around your head or around your waist, or just punch you in the head. Or just run you over because you stopping his full bore forward charge was just being considerate. And lets not forget that We're talking about grabbing a fast forward moving arm out of midair as You turn towards it. Moving towards it makes it get to You faster, not slower 



> I like your challenges they make me think of other possible ways of why I should run when confronted with an armed opponent


Thats kinda My intention. But running isnt always possible or sensible.
When You have no choice but to engage, or You dont have time to do any brain-thinky things, having Your first instinct be to flee could get You into more trouble if fleeing isnt possible. If You can prevent Yourself from being stabbed for a moment, THEN decide to run, thatll do better. And if You manage to overwhelm Your opponent, all the better, but it wont always be possible. Just aim to prevent being harmed as much as possible, then worry about retaliation.


----------



## Dolev

If he doesn't stop his full bore charge and you have passed the disciple phase and into the expert phase as a jujitsuka or an aikidoka you could probably flip him over. Now the whip was mean to be used as an attack to the face using the metal zipper as the edged point of the jacket whip. Presuming it would work side stepping would solve this situation easily.

Though instinctively I would side step I'd also have to immobilize him, my best guess break his elbow and aim for his knees. If you're really pumped adrenaline wise I'd say it's possible to go for a straight forward grab and get your hand pierced as you gouge his eyes and murder him.

IMHO you should simulate this with a wooden knife or tango on a daily basis. Get a friend who is the attacker and just tell him surprise me at any time. Last summer my friend asked me to do that to him with my dulled katana. Of course once he got the hang of his jujitsu technique I got hurt but so did he from me bashing him with a dulled 33 inch blade; I didn't try to break his arm since it would have been fairly easy at the beginning but as we progressed I put more force and speed to my strikes which did end up with a fracture arm but he healed pretty fast.


----------



## Cyriacus

Dolev said:


> If he doesn't stop his full bore charge and you have passed the disciple phase and into the expert phase as a jujitsuka or an aikidoka you could probably flip him over.


How? With Your aura of Jujitsukaness that stops knifes from murdering You? Under some circumstances, defense is impossible. In the video, defense is highly unlikely without restraining the person. What You do after that is irrelevant. A slapfighter could work from there. But You have to get there first. Remember that He will crash into You, trying to stab You at a rate of 2-3 thrusts a second. 



> Now the whip was mean to be used as an attack to the face using the metal zipper as the edged point of the jacket whip. Presuming it would work side stepping would solve this situation easily.


You realise the attacker would just use this as an opportunity to rotate slightly and continue charging? When You sidestep, You have to stop His attack somehow. Hitting Him in the face with a zipper will just make Him more intent on stabbing You, and Youve changed nothing, unless You fancy exposing Your entire side to being stuck with a knife for a few moments at close range. Worse, He could grapple into You, then stab You when Your hands arent even free to stop Him. To test this, hit Yourself in the face with a jacket. I assure You, You wont need to go to the hospital.



> Though instinctively I would side step I'd also have to immobilize him, my best guess break his elbow and aim for his knees.


Good in theory. But not so easy in application. You break His elbow, You need Your right hand on His right wrist (We're assuming Hes right handed for the sake of discussion) and Your left hand bashing the elbow, or the left hand on the wrist and the right hand on his right shoulder. Either way, You have zero defense against His empty hand hitting You, grabbing You, or pushing You. And if Youre close enough to go for His knees, Hes close enough to stab at Your everything, and lifting a foot off the ground whilst Hes charging into You isnt too wise.



> If you're really pumped adrenaline wise I'd say it's possible to go for a straight forward grab and get your hand pierced as you gouge his eyes and murder him.


Haha! You seem to have the same ailment the earlier guy did. You presume that if You get His eyes, or throat, or something, Hes just paralysed from then on. If Your hands are on His eyes, Your entire body is totally exposed, and Id be expecting a few cuts to the underarm, lung, bicep, and possibly the head and kidneys. Good luck with that. Adrenalin takes a few seconds to kick in. You dont have a few seconds here. You have about 1 second to realise someone is in the process of attacking You.



> IMHO you should simulate this with a wooden knife or tango on a daily basis.



Where did You think Ive been getting My information from


----------



## Christian Soldier

A few general replies to this thread:

Awareness is imperative.

Side steping would have really helped this guy out. Staying 'on the line' is one of the worst things you can do.

X blocks and knife attacks don't usually go well together due to the nature of the withdrawl which has then has the potential to cut both arms with in one shot.

Mearly striking the attacker will not stop the attack, proper control of the weapon is mandatory. Don't try anything untill you have control of that knife.


----------



## Dolev

Cyriacus said:


> To test this, hit Yourself in the face with a jacket. I assure You, You wont need to go to the hospital.


I took your advice, i hit myself in the eye and went to the clinic, i have to wear an eye-patch kinda thing till Friday. I'm not even kidding, at least its better than the time i got glass shards in my eye!



Cyriacus said:


> How? With Your aura of Jujitsukaness that stops knifes from murdering  You? Under some circumstances, defense is impossible. In the video,  defense is highly unlikely without restraining the person. What You do  after that is irrelevant. A slapfighter could work from there. But You  have to get there first. Remember that He will crash into You, trying to  stab You at a rate of 2-3 thrusts a second.


With a well timed side step combined with a shiho nage rather than my incredibly powerful aura that crushes the ground under me when I'm enraged, that kinda thing is to powerful for such a silly attack.


----------



## Cyriacus

Dolev said:


> I took your advice, i hit myself in the eye and went to the clinic, i have to wear an eye-patch kinda thing till Friday. I'm not even kidding, at least its better than the time i got glass shards in my eye!


Im so sorry!
Seriously though, the chances of hitting a zipper on a jacket against an eye are amazing. I was expecting You to scratch Your cheek or something 



> With a well timed side step combined with a shiho nage rather than my incredibly powerful aura that crushes the ground under me when I'm enraged, that kinda thing is to powerful for such a silly attack.


Like this?


----------



## Chris Parker

Dolev said:


> Though instinctively I would side step...



Honestly, there's a lot of bad ideas in this thread, but to address just one, no, Dolev, you wouldn't. Instinct would have you moving back on what's referred to as the "primal line", which is straight forward or back, against a sudden attack. You may think that side-stepping makes sense (and yeah, it does), but the ability to do that needs to be trained quite a lot, under quite a serious adrenaline surge, before you have any real hope of pulling it off... and even then, your initial action will be to move straight back along the primal line. 

Just so you know.


----------



## Dolev

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, there's a lot of bad ideas in this thread, but to address just one, no, Dolev, you wouldn't. Instinct would have you moving back on what's referred to as the "primal line", which is straight forward or back, against a sudden attack. You may think that side-stepping makes sense (and yeah, it does), but the ability to do that needs to be trained quite a lot, under quite a serious adrenaline surge, before you have any real hope of pulling it off... and even then, your initial action will be to move straight back along the primal line.
> 
> Just so you know.


I've been trained, and after repeating a move so many times i reflexively side step, I've sparred numerous times and I usually side step.


----------



## Chris Parker

The difference between that and an actual assault, particularly with a weapon, is gigantic. You might as well say that you can handle a formula one car as you've been racing go-karts for years.


----------



## Dolev

True, but i've also been in brawls where the danger is very real and once again I've sidestepped, muscle memory is a pretty powerful thing; it becomes an instinct.


----------



## Cyriacus

Brawls that didnt involve knife rushes


----------



## Chris Parker

Dolev said:


> True, but i've also been in brawls where the danger is very real and once again I've sidestepped, muscle memory is a pretty powerful thing; it becomes an instinct.



So let's get this straight... you claim a rank of "Mukyu" (no rank), did a couple months of karate when you were 16, are currently doing "Akban conditioning" (via their website/you-tube, I'd surmise? And yes, I'm pretty familiar with the Akban guys...), claim to have "every martial art known" within 20 minutes of your house (hardly... I could probably mention quite a few that I've had experience in, as well as many others, that you have little chance of having near you), talk about "being past the disciple level, into the expert level" of jujutsu, talk about Aikido throws (that don't really have relevance), and say a number of other things that really show that you're not particularly informed as of yet when it comes to martial arts... so the question is where has this training in order to instill "muscle memory" might have come from? For the record, I can pretty much guarantee that your initial action was straight back, unless the other guy was coming from a long distance away... which would again minimize the adrenal surge. 

In other words, basic physiology is working against you here.


----------



## Dolev

First off, one is allowed to assume, I am assuming an expert in jujutsu or aikido can execute this throw. I haven't done martial arts for 3 years thus rendering me a mukyu, I am not taking any ranked martial arts thus i am a mukyu. I lived in israel for 6 years and my brother went to Akban, I simply did what he did at home (The exercises and have continued with it till this day). 20km is quite a distance here due to the heavy traffic. Here is a list of the martial arts taught near me; Bujinkan, Eskrima, Muay Thai, Muay Boran, Sambo, Krav Maga, Shaolin Kung Fu, JKD, Pankration, Boxing, Tang Soo Do, Savate, Kendo, Fencing, Karate, Vale Tudo, Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Taekwondo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Wrestling, Iaido, shotokan, goju, and wado karate, Chanquan, and Taichi quan. I'm sure you can think of many more but even if you can i'm sure i can find them and train at that martial art. The Teachers might be fake but its still in a 20km radius, i just haven't bothered to check those i'm not intrested in. I am currently 16, I did kung fu for 7 years. An aikido throw which utilizes a wrist lock can be a helpful technique, im not saying that the situation perfectly replicates the use of the move put you can modify the starting position to the situation.

 Could you please tell me what i've said that made you think that i'm not particularly informed and I'll explain my reasoning to it.


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## Cyriacus

Theres no Isshin Ryu near You then 
:lurk:


----------



## Chris Parker

Dolev said:


> First off, one is allowed to assume, I am assuming an expert in jujutsu or aikido can execute this throw. I haven't done martial arts for 3 years thus rendering me a mukyu, I am not taking any ranked martial arts thus i am a mukyu. I lived in israel for 6 years and my brother went to Akban, I simply did what he did at home (The exercises and have continued with it till this day). 20km is quite a distance here due to the heavy traffic. Here is a list of the martial arts taught near me; Bujinkan, Eskrima, Muay Thai, Muay Boran, Sambo, Krav Maga, Shaolin Kung Fu, JKD, Pankration, Boxing, Tang Soo Do, Savate, Kendo, Fencing, Karate, Vale Tudo, Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Taekwondo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Wrestling, Iaido, shotokan, goju, and wado karate, Chanquan, and Taichi quan. I'm sure you can think of many more but even if you can i'm sure i can find them and train at that martial art. The Teachers might be fake but its still in a 20km radius, i just haven't bothered to check those i'm not intrested in. I am currently 16, I did kung fu for 7 years. An aikido throw which utilizes a wrist lock can be a helpful technique, im not saying that the situation perfectly replicates the use of the move put you can modify the starting position to the situation.
> 
> Could you please tell me what i've said that made you think that i'm not particularly informed and I'll explain my reasoning to it.



Yes, you're allowed to assume. But you might want to realize that there are members here who have been training for two to three times longer than you've been alive, so don't get too upset if your assumptions are corrected. In terms of lists, yeah, that's pretty basic (from my perspective). I can think of quite a number that you don't have listed, and won't have listed... as some are only available in very particular locations, and to have one means you don't have the others. I'm guessing you don't live in Japan...?

In terms of what you've posted, well, pretty much everything in your "pick a martial art" thread, but here we have the comments about "disciple level", the mention of Shiho Nage (pretty sure you're thinking of Irimi Nage, and even then, not really advised), the ideas of using the jacket "as a whip", and, well, pretty much this whole post:



Dolev said:


> If he doesn't stop his full bore charge and you have passed the disciple phase and into the expert phase as a jujitsuka or an aikidoka you could probably flip him over. Now the whip was mean to be used as an attack to the face using the metal zipper as the edged point of the jacket whip. Presuming it would work side stepping would solve this situation easily.
> 
> Though instinctively I would side step I'd also have to immobilize him, my best guess break his elbow and aim for his knees. If you're really pumped adrenaline wise I'd say it's possible to go for a straight forward grab and get your hand pierced as you gouge his eyes and murder him.
> 
> IMHO you should simulate this with a wooden knife or tango on a daily basis. Get a friend who is the attacker and just tell him surprise me at any time. Last summer my friend asked me to do that to him with my dulled katana. Of course once he got the hang of his jujitsu technique I got hurt but so did he from me bashing him with a dulled 33 inch blade; I didn't try to break his arm since it would have been fairly easy at the beginning but as we progressed I put more force and speed to my strikes which did end up with a fracture arm but he healed pretty fast.



as well as this one:



Dolev said:


> You need to be aware of your attacker, with this much distance you wanna focus on his feet and upper body, there will be a small twitch before he takes off at that moment take a kicking stance and focus on the knife, best chance is to side step, grab his wrist, pull, kick, knock him over and knee the knife out of his hand and kill him. In a real life situation knock him down and try disorienting him while you run away to a public area.



You're honestly making the same mistake that many do, until they get some experience, thinking that techniques actually have relevance, looking at the idea of different martial arts being made up of different techniques (referring to "silat scarf", aikido throws, "bursting" techniques of Krav Maga, and so on).


----------



## Dolev

I'm assuming someone who has passed the disciple level can execute a well timed attack to counter his stab. I'm not particularly upset, I'm trying to figure out why I'm wrong to see how to improve it.

I have no experience in silat but from demonstration that i've seen the scarf is pretty nifty, all martial arts use the same basics but more advanced techniques have no relevance to one another. If you could excuse my lack of terminology but I've only recently taken interest in Aikido and Silat. Bursting in my opinion is pretty accurate towards what Krav Maga uses, i'll use an example i'm more familiar with which wouldn't work in this situation but a certain technique in krav maga thats in my mind would work. In Muay Boran there is a move called Tai Khao Phra Sumaru, defending and attacking at the same time using both arms and a knee. 

I live in Nonthaburi, now I'm sure an Isshin Ryu and Shito Ryu and Kyokushin and Uechi Ryu all exist, they're simply a little further away.
48 years of martial arts is impressive, even 32 is. I'd like to meet these people if possible.


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## MJS

bluewaveschool said:


> So my first thought of a x block was met with a 'ehh.....' I picked up Black Belt Magazine told for the first time in 15 years for the article on Hee-Il Cho, and flipping through it I find another article - "Project X - Why you need to revisit the traditional x-block for your self defense needs"  Interesting article, makes some good points on how to use it (not against knife though) effectively.



IMO, the X block is a good block, however, like everything, it has its purposes, and I dont feel that using it for a knife is one of them, but thats just me.   Some of the knife defenses that I've done, as far as techs go, do consist of a X type block, however, 1 arm is used first, to redirect, with the 2nd coming in immediately after, for the control.


----------



## oftheherd1

Dolev said:


> I took your advice, i hit myself in the eye and went to the clinic, i have to wear an eye-patch kinda thing till Friday. I'm not even kidding, at least its better than the time i got glass shards in my eye!
> ...





Dolev said:


> ...
> 
> Could you please tell me what i've said that made you think that i'm not particularly informed and I'll explain my reasoning to it.



Well, I must admit I was a little surprised at your statement in the top quote here.  If was intended to be tongue and cheek, perhaps the use of some emoticons would be helpful.

FWIW, nobody is questioning your knowledge or ability per se, simply pointing out what you are saying, and how you are describing it doesn't agree with their experience.  That's OK, it happens to me some.  Sometimes it is probably my lack of ability to explain properly, other times they don't have the training experience I have, and no doubt sometimes, I am just mistaken in what I say.  But honestly, you have had me thinking you were trying to impress us with knowledge you didn't seem to have by what you were saying, or maybe it was the way you were saying it.

BTW, what country are you in now?  Twenty-nine martial arts in a 20 km radius is amazing.  All they all different schools and locations?  That is amazing!  I am glad to see there is such a place where so many people are inspired to learn so many different martial arts.


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## Dolev

I live in nonthaburi, I'm trying to grasp real life situations using "common" sense. I dont have much experience outside of Changquan, and my information might be wrong since i started when i was 6 (Basics) and stopped when i was 13. I won't try to impress you since i wont gain anything from it, I joined a discussion, it's okay if someone fixes me, i just want to know where i was wrong so i can broaden my horizons. 

My eye will be fine, I mean no real harm happened. I didn't hit myself particularly hard, just very accurately.


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## oftheherd1

Dolev said:


> ...
> 
> My eye will be fine, I mean no real harm happened. I didn't hit myself particularly hard, just very accurately.



What did you learn from your experience?


----------



## MJS

Dolev said:


> HAHAHA, man I love you. You're really knowledgeable, I'm not.
> Hardened street fighter, I'm 16 in the very few brawls I was in there were no knives involved maybe a bat at most and that's when you run. Anyways I think he could've utilized the bursting techniques used in krav maga. I mean considering you're the idiot who put your family in danger There isn't much of an argument to be made. Knives are dangerous, beating an armed opponent needs more than skill, you need luck. Wrapping the opponent is near impossible but what a about usin the jacket as a whip. Stabbing motions are usually circular, put together with a charge your opponent won't be expecting you to charge in close. So how about charging in and grabbing his wrist while turning and executing a throw, the turnig is so you have a better view at the knife since he will hug and hammer away at your back.
> 
> I like your challenges they make me think of other possible ways of why I should run when confronted with an armed opponent





Dolev said:


> If he doesn't stop his full bore charge and you have passed the disciple phase and into the expert phase as a jujitsuka or an aikidoka you could probably flip him over. Now the whip was mean to be used as an attack to the face using the metal zipper as the edged point of the jacket whip. Presuming it would work side stepping would solve this situation easily.
> 
> Though instinctively I would side step I'd also have to immobilize him, my best guess break his elbow and aim for his knees. If you're really pumped adrenaline wise I'd say it's possible to go for a straight forward grab and get your hand pierced as you gouge his eyes and murder him.
> 
> IMHO you should simulate this with a wooden knife or tango on a daily basis. Get a friend who is the attacker and just tell him surprise me at any time. Last summer my friend asked me to do that to him with my dulled katana. Of course once he got the hang of his jujitsu technique I got hurt but so did he from me bashing him with a dulled 33 inch blade; I didn't try to break his arm since it would have been fairly easy at the beginning but as we progressed I put more force and speed to my strikes which did end up with a fracture arm but he healed pretty fast.



To address a few things from each of these posts:

There are a number of 'techniques' for deal with a knife.  IMHO, I've seen alot of good ones, and alot of poor ones.  Keep in mind, that the techniques are simply ideas.  They are not set in stone, sure shot things.  IMO, as others have said, including myself, gaining control, should be the first thing.  Without control, all the techniques aren't going to matter.  

Using a jacket as a whip....keep in mind that thats probably going to be a 1 shot thing, and IMO, not necessarily a sure shot thing in the first place.  Yeah, I know you're banking on hitting with the zipper, but what if you miss?  What if it has no effect?  This is why, if anything, you'd be better off tossing the jacket as a quick distraction and then getting away or doing something else.

I would seriously take a look at some of these techs that you're describing and ask yourself how effective things will be, when you're under pressure.  Keep in mind, that alot of the fancy twisting, flipping stuff thats taught, would most likely get someone seriously hurt or killed, were they to do that if the guy with the knife was doing anything other than just stabbing and standing looking pretty while the defender goes thru his defense.


----------



## Blindside

Dolev said:


> My eye will be fine, I mean no real harm happened. I didn't hit myself particularly hard, just very accurately.



Scratched cornea?


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## Dolev

oftheherd1 said:


> What did you learn from your experience?


Dont use hard materials to experiment, but soft ones, like a silk robe.

MJS; so what about a slapping game as someone mentioned earlier, but with a kick. Or a kick to the back of the knee
Could you give a name of a technique that works? 

Nah, just hyperemia, but I'm not supposed to strain my eye that's why i have a patch.
Anyways, i gotta go run 3 miles then to bed it's nearly 1 am


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## oftheherd1

Dolev - There is no such thing as a bad martial art. Many do things differently, but they all have good things to offer.  We just have to learn them as the masters have learned and passed down.

From some of the comments you have made, you might want to look at Hapkido, if it is indeed taught as a MA, instead of as some places do; the instructor going to a seminar or two and claiming to be a Hapkido Master, and capable of teaching Hapkido as a separate art. In fact those types don't, since they can't.

Look for a dedicated school. They can teach you to do some of the things you alude to, but don't seem to really understand, such as moving into an attack. I don't always agree with my fellow martial artists, when they claim something is impossible, or too difficult to use in real life. Hapkio teaches a lot of those things. But you must be fast and accurate. Otherwise you have placed yourself right in your opponent's sphere of power. Also, Hapkido and Aikido usually attempt to place you where you can manipulate your opponent into a position where he cannot strike you as is often mentioned as a vulnerability.

Even so, some of your statements are a little ill advised in my opinion. You mentioned giving up your hand to a piercing by the knife to trap it. Once you have been stabbed through the palm, how will you trap the knife? That is never something Hapkido would teach. We may take a knife away from an opponent and stab or slice him long and deep, but we aren't going to intentionally damage ourselves. Why should we? We may need that hand against other opponents.

But I applaud you saying you wish to learn. That is good. We all should want to do that.


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## MJS

Dolev said:


> MJS; so what about a slapping game as someone mentioned earlier, but with a kick. Or a kick to the back of the knee
> Could you give a name of a technique that works?



Could you point me to the post in question?  Not sure what you're talking about.


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## Dolev

As to the knife to the palm, i was never being serious; but if you theoretically get the knife to pierce between your ring fingers metacarpus and your middle fingers metacarpus you should be able to garb his wrist with your index finger and your thumb- i wouldn't recommend it, you lose your middle and ring finger permanently and it might be to much to bear. I think I'm going to join a Kung fu class, i haven't found a specific technique but Sanda looks good and so does Muay Thai (I'm well aware Muay Thai isn't kung fu). I'll look up some good hapkido schools and check em' out tomorrow, Thanks for the awesome feedback .

Edit: I know that fights come down to the fighters, but i'm looking for something that works for me


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## Dolev

Originally Posted by *Cyriacus* 

 
 				How? With Your aura of Jujitsukaness that stops  knifes from murdering  You? Under some circumstances, defense is  impossible. In the video,  defense is highly unlikely without  restraining the person. What You do  after that is irrelevant. A  slapfighter could work from there. But You  have to get there first.  Remember that He will crash into You, trying to  stab You at a rate of  2-3 thrusts a second.

I'm assuming that's what he meant, now if you kick the arm or hand (preferable) his grip/thrusts will weaken and a disarm will be easier if he hasn't lost the knife already. Possibly the most important thing is not to freak out when you get cut, but sidestepping seems like a good follow up.


----------



## MJS

Dolev said:


> As to the knife to the palm, i was never being serious; but if you theoretically get the knife to pierce between your ring fingers metacarpus and your middle fingers metacarpus you should be able to garb his wrist with your index finger and your thumb- i wouldn't recommend it, you lose your middle and ring finger permanently and it might be to much to bear. I think I'm going to join a Kung fu class, i haven't found a specific technique but Sanda looks good and so does Muay Thai (I'm well aware Muay Thai isn't kung fu). I'll look up some good hapkido schools and check em' out tomorrow, Thanks for the awesome feedback .
> 
> Edit: I know that fights come down to the fighters, but i'm looking for something that works for me



Ummmm.....what????  



Dolev said:


> Originally Posted by *Cyriacus*
> 
> 
> How? With Your aura of Jujitsukaness that stops  knifes from murdering  You? Under some circumstances, defense is  impossible. In the video,  defense is highly unlikely without  restraining the person. What You do  after that is irrelevant. A  slapfighter could work from there. But You  have to get there first.  Remember that He will crash into You, trying to  stab You at a rate of  2-3 thrusts a second.
> 
> I'm assuming that's what he meant, now if you kick the arm or hand (preferable) his grip/thrusts will weaken and a disarm will be easier if he hasn't lost the knife already. Possibly the most important thing is not to freak out when you get cut, but sidestepping seems like a good follow up.



I'll address each part of this post.  

1) I'd have to ask for clarification from the OP, however, you may be mistaking the 'slapping' for a parry.  I've done some knife drills where various stabs were given, and the hands are using to parry the knife.  This is a drill mostly to work footwork, body movement, as well as some basic defense.  But no, IMHO, doing nothing but slapping/parrying isn't a good defense.

2) Kicking the knife or the hand is a movie stunt that IMO, is suicide in real life.  Why offer up another limb to get cut??


----------



## geezer

Reading though these posts reminds me of the time I was at a family gathering and everybody was talking about how proud they were of my step-brother's son who was then a 12-year-old black belt. He mentioned to me that he had learned to defend against knife attacks. I took him aside and told him to never mess with a guy armed with a knife. Run, hide, grab something and throw it, whatever, but understand that fighting back is the absolute last resort, and that _survival_ is the best you can hope for. Even if you are a five foot tall 12-year-old blackbelt!

Needless to say he didn't believe me. I mean after all he had the black belt right? And who was I? His middle-aged step-uncle who does some kinda MA that doesn't even have belts! So to make the point, I grabbed a harmless kitchen spatula and asked him if he thought he could defend against it if it were a knife. He said sure. So I charged him, knocked him to the floor and "stabbed" him with the spatula about twenty times. Boy, did his eyes get big. My wife went all ballistic on me for "beating up on a little kid". But my step brother, the boy's father, understood perfectly ...and so did the kid. Maybe the lesson will keep him from doing something stupid down the road. 

As to _"Dolev"_, I understand you want a reasonable and reliable empty-handed knife-defense that you can count on. The bad news (as has already been stated) is that such a defense _doesn't exist_. There are some approaches that are just unrealistic and really _stupid_, and others that are better. Some of each have been discussed here. The better ones are very simple, direct, powerful and delivered with focused, violent even _desperate_ aggression. Improvised weapons can help even the odds, if you can get your hands on them in time. But a lot of attacks happen before you are even aware that there's a threat. Which _technique_ will protect you when you suddenly realize that you have just been stabbed from behind and didn't even know it until you felt that sharp pain like a hard punch, felt the warm sticky blood on your fingers as you grab the spot, and caught a glimpse of the other guy walking away? Food for thought.


----------



## Dolev

I'll edit this post later with a detailed explanation, getting stabbed in the palm was a joke, theoretically it's possible but you're just sacrificing a limb for nothing. 
About the "there is no bad art that is given from masters etc." I agree, there are bad fighters. 
About hapkido, it sounds intresting i'll check it out, but im more inclined to take kung fu (Possibly sanda) or muay thai


----------



## MJS

geezer said:


> Reading though these posts reminds me of the time I was at a family gathering and everybody was talking about how proud they were of my step-brother's son who was then a 12-year-old black belt. He mentioned to me that he had learned to defend against knife attacks. I took him aside and told him to never mess with a guy armed with a knife. Run, hide, grab something and throw it, whatever, but understand that fighting back is the absolute last resort, and that _survival_ is the best you can hope for. Even if you are a five foot tall 12-year-old blackbelt!
> 
> Needless to say he didn't believe me. I mean after all he had the black belt right? And who was I? His middle-aged step-uncle who does some kinda MA that doesn't even have belts! So to make the point, I grabbed a harmless kitchen spatula and asked him if he thought he could defend against it if it were a knife. He said sure. So I charged him, knocked him to the floor and "stabbed" him with the spatula about twenty times. Boy, did his eyes get big. My wife went all ballistic on me for "beating up on a little kid". But my step brother, the boy's father, understood perfectly ...and so did the kid. Maybe the lesson will keep him from doing something stupid down the road.
> 
> As to _"Dolev"_, I understand you want a reasonable and reliable empty-handed knife-defense that you can count on. The bad news (as has already been stated) is that such a defense _doesn't exist_. There are some approaches that are just unrealistic and really _stupid_, and others that are better. Some of each have been discussed here. The better ones are very simple, direct, powerful and delivered with focused, violent even _desperate_ aggression. Improvised weapons can help even the odds, if you can get your hands on them in time. But a lot of attacks happen before you are even aware that there's a threat. Which _technique_ will protect you when you suddenly realize that you have just been stabbed from behind and didn't even know it until you felt that sharp pain like a hard punch, felt the warm sticky blood on your fingers as you grab the spot, and caught a glimpse of the other guy walking away? Food for thought.



QFT!!  Certainly some sage advice in this post!


----------



## oftheherd1

Dolev said:


> I'll edit this post later with a detailed explanation, getting stabbed in the palm was a joke, theoretically it's possible but you're just sacrificing a limb for nothing.
> ...



Well, you need to be careful.  If it isn't obvious from what you say, or if there is even a chance you could be misunderstood, you should rephrase or use emoticons, or both.  We do that here often.  It lessens the chances of making us look foolish.


----------



## Dolev

I'm replying to this thread as the situation puts us in, i'd never try to fight an armed assailant, i'd try to negotiate my way out if its impossible i run, if that is also denied fighting it is, a guy with a knife is a 100th dan fighter.

Even though i'm 16 i have a bunch of weapons, many times I've cut myself and shot myself (Rubber tipped bolts from a crossbow hurt like a *****); Even when unintended weapons pose a threat. I don't like violence, i don't get into fights with delinquents but with friends, sure it gets aggressive and there's blood at times but through thick and thin we are friends, most of the time these are sparring matches.


----------



## Dolev

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, you need to be careful.  If it isn't obvious from what you say, or if there is even a chance you could be misunderstood, you should rephrase or use emoticons, or both.  We do that here often.  It lessens the chances of making us look foolish.



A smart man learns from a fools mistake, and in this case i'm the fool who learns from a smart man. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## oftheherd1

Dolev said:


> I'll edit this post later with a detailed explanation, getting stabbed in the palm was a joke, theoretically it's possible but you're just sacrificing a limb for nothing.
> About the "there is no bad art that is given from masters etc." I agree, there are bad fighters.
> About hapkido, it sounds intresting i'll check it out, but im more inclined to take kung fu (Possibly sanda) or muay thai



Yeah, and bad teachers unfortunately.  That is why you should be sure of the school you pick.  You want to find a good teacher, which means you should also find good students.  Both the teacher and the students will then help you learn and get to the point where you can also be a good student-teacher.  You need to find a martial art that you like, and spend the time and effort it takes to be proficient at it.  Keep in mind that if you have it narrowed down to two schools, and the art you think you want more doesn't have a good teacher, you might want to go for the better teacher.  But in the end, it is you life and your choice to be happiest with.


----------



## oftheherd1

Dolev said:


> A smart man learns from a fools mistake, and in this case i'm the fool who learns from a smart man. Thanks for the tip!



You are welcome for the tip. 

But don't consider me a smart man. I always tell people it isn't so bad to make a mistake, if you learn from it. And I have learned a lot. :uhyeah:

If you are learning anything from me, it is only what I have been taught by others, and from realizing and learning from a mistake.


----------



## Christian Soldier

Geezer, great job, you may have saved that kid's life. IMO, many young Martial artist need that. 

 There certainately aren't any 'definite' or 'bullet proof' options in any street fight and espicially not in a knife fight, but I think an importatn distnction that I isn't mention as often as it should is that there _are_ options. Some of which even keep you from getting stabbed and/or killed. The frusturating thing I had surfing the web for good knife defence was that instructors (who were teaching adults) would either do the latter two things in the OP or they'd show a realistic knife attack and then wouldn't even show basic defence. And being that I was searching for answers, the lack of such upset me, hence the thread.


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## Dolev

Lets all go buy/make medieval armor and wear it under our clothes! :jediduel:
At the least lets wear gauntlets to parry the knife without losing a limb.


----------



## Cirdan

Dolev said:


> Lets all go buy/make medieval armor and wear it under our clothes! :jediduel:
> At the least lets wear gauntlets to parry the knife without losing a limb.



Or we could live happy lives without giving in to paranoia. This guy would agree with you however:


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## Dolev

I'm not worried of getting stabbed, i live in a closed neighborhood. You need a card to enter, and answer 3 questions. At one point they just remember your face, they do this because the neighborhood is home to ambassadors, specifically the American embassy. My school is inside the neighborhood and  I don't go to the bad parts of town. Furthermore, I don't do anything to provoke people, the worst thing that could happen is i get mugged but the locals are afraid of doing so because of the immense repercussions of mugging; even more so murdering. Locals are very kind


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## WingChunIan

Christian Soldier said:


> A few general replies to this thread:
> 
> Mearly striking the attacker will not stop the attack, proper control of the weapon is mandatory. Don't try anything untill you have control of that knife.


It will if it A) results in a knockout - unconcious people don't try to stab or cut you, B) smashes the throat - people who can't breathe are normally too preoccupied to continue the attack, C) disorients sufficiently to require the attackers immediate attention - striking the ear for example D) causes the opponent to fall forwards towards the floor / wall - human reactions are to put our hands out to break our fall not to continue attacking.
The most important point in any response is to get off of the line of the original attack


----------



## WingChunIan

geezer said:


> Reading though these posts reminds me of the time I was at a family gathering and everybody was talking about how proud they were of my step-brother's son who was then a 12-year-old black belt. He mentioned to me that he had learned to defend against knife attacks. I took him aside and told him to never mess with a guy armed with a knife. Run, hide, grab something and throw it, whatever, but understand that fighting back is the absolute last resort, and that _survival_ is the best you can hope for. Even if you are a five foot tall 12-year-old blackbelt!
> 
> Needless to say he didn't believe me. I mean after all he had the black belt right? And who was I? His middle-aged step-uncle who does some kinda MA that doesn't even have belts! So to make the point, I grabbed a harmless kitchen spatula and asked him if he thought he could defend against it if it were a knife. He said sure. So I charged him, knocked him to the floor and "stabbed" him with the spatula about twenty times. Boy, did his eyes get big. My wife went all ballistic on me for "beating up on a little kid". But my step brother, the boy's father, understood perfectly ...and so did the kid. Maybe the lesson will keep him from doing something stupid down the road.
> 
> As to _"Dolev"_, I understand you want a reasonable and reliable empty-handed knife-defense that you can count on. The bad news (as has already been stated) is that such a defense _doesn't exist_. There are some approaches that are just unrealistic and really _stupid_, and others that are better. Some of each have been discussed here. The better ones are very simple, direct, powerful and delivered with focused, violent even _desperate_ aggression. Improvised weapons can help even the odds, if you can get your hands on them in time. But a lot of attacks happen before you are even aware that there's a threat. Which _technique_ will protect you when you suddenly realize that you have just been stabbed from behind and didn't even know it until you felt that sharp pain like a hard punch, felt the warm sticky blood on your fingers as you grab the spot, and caught a glimpse of the other guy walking away? Food for thought.



Very true. Sad, scary, but true.


----------



## Christian Soldier

WingChunIan said:


> It will if it A) results in a knockout - unconcious people don't try to stab or cut you, B) smashes the throat - people who can't breathe are normally too preoccupied to continue the attack, C) disorients sufficiently to require the attackers immediate attention - striking the ear for example D) causes the opponent to fall forwards towards the floor / wall - human reactions are to put our hands out to break our fall not to continue attacking.
> The most important point in any response is to get off of the line of the original attack



Is it concieveable? Absolutely! Would I teach people to _not_ control the weapon, probably not. It is definitely possible but it's just not as safe as other options. And if you catch a hit, it's not just like you are sore the next morning, it might mean you bleed out on the street. I think A, B, C, and D are all great things that I would probably do, after I have control of the knife. They can be done in a much more safe manner _after_ you get off line and control the weapon.


----------



## WingChunIan

Christian Soldier said:


> Is it concieveable? Absolutely! Would I teach people to _not_ control the weapon, probably not. It is definitely possible but it's just not as safe as other options. And if you catch a hit, it's not just like you are sore the next morning, it might mean you bleed out on the street. I think A, B, C, and D are all great things that I would probably do, after I have control of the knife. They can be done in a much more safe manner _after_ you get off line and control the weapon.


Each to their own but do you teach controlling the none striking arm for empty hand work? (notice in the clip, the first approach is made by the non knife weilding hand). The logic of control the weapon arm falls down immediately if it requires you to determine the correct response between the one for armed assailants and the one for unarmed assailants. While you're making your mind up you've already missed your opportunity. 
Fighting armed assailants is a high risk strategy and one with relatively low odds of success whatever tactics / techniques you employ, personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat.


----------



## Christian Soldier

WingChunIan said:


> Each to their own but do you teach controlling the none striking arm for empty hand work? (notice in the clip, the first approach is made by the non knife weilding hand). The logic of control the weapon arm falls down immediately if it requires you to determine the correct response between the one for armed assailants and the one for unarmed assailants. While you're making your mind up you've already missed your opportunity.
> Fighting armed assailants is a high risk strategy and one with relatively low odds of success whatever tactics / techniques you employ, personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat.




Again I agree with this: "personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat." 

But it would still be much more wise to proceed to do this _after_ you have 'defanged the snake' or have control of the weapon.

I teach my students get offline and to be in a zone of sactuary (outside the arms) so the other arm isn't a worry and is postionaly checked. It's more safe than a lot of other options and I've tried with the attacker going full force and I know it works.


----------



## MJS

WingChunIan said:


> It will if it A) results in a knockout - unconcious people don't try to stab or cut you, B) smashes the throat - people who can't breathe are normally too preoccupied to continue the attack, C) disorients sufficiently to require the attackers immediate attention - striking the ear for example D) causes the opponent to fall forwards towards the floor / wall - human reactions are to put our hands out to break our fall not to continue attacking.
> The most important point in any response is to get off of the line of the original attack





WingChunIan said:


> Each to their own but do you teach controlling the none striking arm for empty hand work? (notice in the clip, the first approach is made by the non knife weilding hand). The logic of control the weapon arm falls down immediately if it requires you to determine the correct response between the one for armed assailants and the one for unarmed assailants. While you're making your mind up you've already missed your opportunity.
> Fighting armed assailants is a high risk strategy and one with relatively low odds of success whatever tactics / techniques you employ, personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat.



While all of the above mentioned things are effective, I'd still say that without control, you're running a very high risk of getting cut, more than you may have to be.  Each and every time you extend your hand to hit the ears, throat, etc, you're giving the guy with the knife, a limb to cut.  

As for the 2nd part of your post...yes, I teach controlling for emtpy hands as well, and I've never had any of the issues you mention.  Spontaneous reaction drills teach people how to do this.  You have no idea whats coming, so you simply adapt to whats being presented.  

You're correct....knife defense is a scarey thing...and this is why I cringe with alot of the stuff that I see thats taught.  However, there is also quite a bit of excellent stuff out there as well.  

Like I said, the things you mention are good tools, however, you're banking on the 1 shot, 1 kill which may not always work.


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## mook jong man

Some things that need to be considered with knife defence are , that you may not have the time or the distance at your disposal to get off the line of the attack.

Or that you may not even see the knife in the first place , in low level light conditions it may look like the attacker is just trying to punch you , it's quite likely you will be half way through your normal counter to a punch before you even recognize he has a knife in his hand if you even see it at all.

If you are aware that he has a knife in his hand great , then go for controlling the knife wielding limb , but if you are already in the process of defending what you thought was a regular punch and you see the knife , then you should press forward in your attack with such speed and ferocity that the attackers brain is fully occupied with the battering it is receiving and not in trying to stab you.

You really have to try and harness all your aggression and speed and go straight through them like a freight train in order to survive.


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## Christian Soldier

mook jong man said:


> You really have to try and harness all your aggression and speed and go straight through them like a freight train in order to survive.



Truth. I may quote this next time I teach knife defence.


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## WingChunIan

MJS said:


> Like I said, the things you mention are good tools, however, you're banking on the 1 shot, 1 kill which may not always work.



Not at all, I never once mentioned relying on one strike. I teach quite the opposite. As with most Wing Chun I teach that each strike should carry venom but that strikes should be thrown in clusters creating a continuous barrage that overwhelms the opponent. I agree with mjm's post re aggression.
We are all entitled to our own opinions but I do find it mildly amusing that your argument against striking is that your limb may get cut but yet you advocate grabbing for / striking the weapon arm. If we're talking about risks then I'd rather put my money on hitting (with a barrage of shots) the slower moving target that causes maximum damage and has a chance of stopping things than trying to strike / grab a fast moving limb that even if successful still hasn't stopped the fight and requires another action to do so.


----------



## oftheherd1

WingChunIan said:


> ...
> 
> I do find it mildly amusing that your argument against striking is that your limb may get cut but yet you advocate grabbing for / striking the weapon arm. If we're talking about risks then *I'd rather put my money on hitting (with a barrage of shots) the slower moving target that causes maximum damage and has a chance of stopping things than trying to strike / grab a fast moving limb that even if successful still hasn't stopped the fight and requires another action to do so*.



Most techniques against a knife in Hapkido, first control the knife hand, then continue with something that renders the knife hand imobile, or unable to be used.  The technique will also usually render the other hand incapable of being used due to the technique forcing the attacker's body to be turned, or the defender moving out of range, or both.  I think the same is true from the little I know of Aikido.  I guess the old masters had already figured out what you are talking about.  But good for you to question that.  The knowledge that unarmed knife defense is fraught with more danger than punch defense can save your life.  But that doesn't mean that all knife defenses are no good.


----------



## Instructor

One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away.  It really throws off their game.


----------



## Cyriacus

Instructor said:


> One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away.  It really throws off their game.


I totally forgot how easy it was to switch hands with a knife - Thanks!


----------



## Chris Parker

Instructor said:


> One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away.  It really throws off their game.





Cyriacus said:


> I totally forgot how easy it was to switch hands with a knife - Thanks!



To be bluntly honest, it's far less realistic than might be expected. With the effects of adrenaline in the situation, once the knife hand is caught, the immediate response (natural response) is to try to regain control of that arm (and thereby regaining control of the knife itself). It's only when that hasn't worked that the knifeman might (and I stress might) think of changing hands. The thing to realize about such tactics is that they are still fairly fine motor, and consciously made decisions, neither of which are really there for you in a high adrenaline situation. What is easy in training is damn impossible in reality.

The only real benefit I can think of is that it will gear the students up to be aware at all times of where the weapon is, in order to ensure that it is controlled at all times. But as a realistic tactic for an attacker? Nope. You're better off getting your students to handle someone trying to violently pull the knife out of the defenders grip... because that, alone, is very difficult to deal with, and essential when you are dealing with realistic knife defense.


----------



## Cyriacus

Chris Parker said:


> To be bluntly honest, it's far less realistic than might be expected. With the effects of adrenaline in the situation, once the knife hand is caught, the immediate response (natural response) is to try to regain control of that arm (and thereby regaining control of the knife itself). It's only when that hasn't worked that the knifeman might (and I stress might) think of changing hands. The thing to realize about such tactics is that they are still fairly fine motor, and consciously made decisions, neither of which are really there for you in a high adrenaline situation. What is easy in training is damn impossible in reality.
> 
> The only real benefit I can think of is that it will gear the students up to be aware at all times of where the weapon is, in order to ensure that it is controlled at all times. But as a realistic tactic for an attacker? Nope. You're better off getting your students to handle someone trying to violently pull the knife out of the defenders grip... because that, alone, is very difficult to deal with, and essential when you are dealing with realistic knife defense.


Of course it isnt likely - Id just forgotten that changing the knife to the other hand was a thing.


----------



## MJS

WingChunIan said:


> Not at all, I never once mentioned relying on one strike. I teach quite the opposite. As with most Wing Chun I teach that each strike should carry venom but that strikes should be thrown in clusters creating a continuous barrage that overwhelms the opponent. I agree with mjm's post re aggression.
> We are all entitled to our own opinions but I do find it mildly amusing that your argument against striking is that your limb may get cut but yet you advocate grabbing for / striking the weapon arm. If we're talking about risks then I'd rather put my money on hitting (with a barrage of shots) the slower moving target that causes maximum damage and has a chance of stopping things than trying to strike / grab a fast moving limb that even if successful still hasn't stopped the fight and requires another action to do so.



You are correct sir, and you are entitled to your opinion as well.   I'm not sure of the extent of your knife work, however, often when discussions of this nature come up, I too, am mildly amused, when I read posts from people whos knife experience is limited.  However, let me clarify.  Earlier in this thread, I posted some video clips.  That is the method that I currently use now, with the majority of my knife work.  You'll notice how control is easily gained, the badguy is taken off balance, and strikes can be applied.

Note, that I did not say that I'd grab for the arm.  That was something that you said or assumed I said, from my post.  Note, that I also said that its a given that no matter what we do, expect to be cut.  My point was simply this:  I'm using the methods shown in those clips I linked.  The only thing that I didn't like about your method, was the fact that while strikes are certainly a valid tool, I don't agree with your take on not controlling the weapon, and instead, your relying on the hope that you can overwhelm the guy.  Of course, keep in mind that its also very possible that in your attempt to overwhelm them with strikes, which is a common WC thing, given that this is often done vs. emtpy hand attacks, that the guy could still be swinging the blade.  

But hey, if your method works, great.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## oftheherd1

Instructor said:


> One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away. It really throws off their game.



First, I agree with Chris Parker's statement posted above. Many of the Hapkido techniques I learned take advantage of the reflexsive response of an attacker.

Second, I assume you are talking about while your students are learning, sort of by the numbers? As Chris Parker mentioned, if you want to stress being aware of many possibilities and being prepared to change tactics if needed, I can see that might have some advangage. I would hope you are pointing out how unlikely your tactic is when the technique is performed correctly. Otherwise, you may be building into your training, doubts about the effectiveness of what you are training. That would not serve your students well.

But once past the 'numbers' stage of learning, the technique should be rapid and smooth enough to prevent that tactic, as well as the attacker having to be very good to react to any sudden, unexpected, and surpise defense.


----------



## szorn

Christian Soldier said:


> So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.
> 
> I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!
> 
> The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.
> 
> And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.
> 
> I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?




I didn't have time to read through every single reply on this so most of this may have already been covered by others...

There are essentially two primary options- create distance or close the distance. When possible and applicable create distance and put something between you and them. The larger the item (such as a car) the better. If you carry a firearm or knife for self-defense, create distance and resort to your weapon. If all that you have a is a jacket, then use it in a fashion that works better than demonstrated in that video. Using it like a flail to the head can work. I teach a flexible weapons course that provides options of blocking and deflecting with soft items like a jacket. Also, if time allows wrapping it around the arm can reduce damage while using the arm to block/jam and secure the weapon-bearing limb. If you can't create distance then aggressively engage the attacker and attempt to secure the weapon-bearing limb while viciously striking vital targets. A knife attack is a lethal force situation and warrants a lethal force response. Targeting the throat / neck is a good option. Avoid trying to do commonly taught knife dis-arms. These generally don't work well under the attacks as demonstrated in that video.

Regardless of what options we train, all we can do is a make a bad situation a little less bad.


Steve


----------



## Aiki Lee

Looking back at the video, I can see how being grabbed before being stabbed can immediate cause the defender to feel like he's been "caught" and thus cause him to freeze. Having multiple limbs grab onto you can overwhelm the brain and create indecision as to what she be dealt with first. The reason the defender got "killed" in the video was because he was reacting defensively instead of acting offensively. He moved backward, as was his instinct and tried to stop the attacker from coming closer by putting his arms out as a barrier (also instinct).

Personally, when I am practicing these kind of realistic knife scenarios where you are attacked and not totally aware and I am randomly grabbed and stabbed at I begin throwing counter strikes towards the incoming biscep area of the striking/stabbing/slashing arm. Why the biscep? Cuz it doesn't move much from its resting place to it's full extension, so I'm less likely to miss than if I were aiming at the wrist. Hitting this area prevents the attack from reaching you and may result in the attacker dropping the knife. Whether or not he drops it, it does allow for enough time to move to a superior position and apply a technique.

After all, there are  a bunch of techniques that are feasible for knife defense, but as with any realistic training it doesn't so much matter what technique you pick but how you plan to set up the situation so you can apply it.


----------



## Cyriacus

szorn said:


> I didn't have time to read through every single reply on this so most of this may have already been covered by others...
> 
> There are essentially two primary options- create distance or close the distance. When possible and applicable create distance and put something between you and them. The larger the item (such as a car) the better. If you carry a firearm or knife for self-defense, create distance and resort to your weapon. If all that you have a is a jacket, then use it in a fashion that works better than demonstrated in that video. Using it like a flail to the head can work. I teach a flexible weapons course that provides options of blocking and deflecting with soft items like a jacket. Also, if time allows wrapping it around the arm can reduce damage while using the arm to block/jam and secure the weapon-bearing limb. If you can't create distance then aggressively engage the attacker and attempt to secure the weapon-bearing limb while viciously striking vital targets. A knife attack is a lethal force situation and warrants a lethal force response. Targeting the throat / neck is a good option. Avoid trying to do commonly taught knife dis-arms. These generally don't work well under the attacks as demonstrated in that video.
> 
> Regardless of what options we train, all we can do is a make a bad situation a little less bad.
> 
> 
> Steve


In the video, He didnt have time to use the jacket for squat.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Throw the jacket at the attackers face as a distraction and side step to the attackers left (the non-knife wielding side) and use a low turning kick to to trip him over and follow with a foot stomp to his head, leg  or ribs when he is on the ground - end of story.


----------



## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> Throw the jacket at the attackers face as a distraction and side step to the attackers left (the non-knife wielding side) and use a low turning kick to to trip him over and follow with a foot stomp to his head, leg  or ribs when he is on the ground - end of story.



I really hope youre joking.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Why would you say that?


----------



## RTKDCMB

I mean my left.


----------



## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> Why would you say that?





RTKDCMB said:


> I mean my left.



Well, to begin with, grab a jacket and throw it at face height. See how long it takes and how pathetically it flutters through the air.
Now throw the jacket and sidestep before picking one leg up off the ground.
Now try and do all of that in less than a second with the kick.
Now assume that you know that the attacker has the knife, which hand its in, and that you even know that theyre going to stab you with it.
Now keep in mind that they are a human being with a brain between their ears.

Now, get a knife and a partner, then rush at them (you being the attacker) with the intent to physically collide your body into theirs. Have them sidestep, and feel all tingly with revelation as you, being a human with a brain, make a miniscule adjustment you probably wont even notice, rendering their sidestep a total waste of time under the circumstances, and if anything putting them on the beginnings of retreat/falling over whilst being stabbed. While youre at it, let them try and throw a jacket into your face so that you can totally ignore it and stab them anyway, whilst they waste time. Not only do jackets not hurt, but you dont need to be able to see someone to stab them, and thats assuming it didnt do what throwing jackets has done the times weve tried it, where it just sticks to the attackers shoulder like a sauna towel. Furthermore, youre letting them stab you whilst you stand on one leg after a sidestep. Even if you get the kick off, they are not going to trip over, and even if they did theyd fall into you. You know, with their stabby knife. Why? Well, let someone kick you like so, and observe as you totally ignore it and keep moving forward. Even if it broke your shin, who cares. Youre stabbing them and theyre standing on one leg with their body travelling away from your sheer forward momentum.

To help with the drill, bend your knees slightly, push off your back foot and gently pull with your front, then start with a shorter running pace before you break out into a full bolt charge. It makes it easier and faster to run from a standing start that way. Just something you pick up playing football, incase you dont. Make sure you dont slow down prior to colliding with your partner, since if you had a knife youd want to stick it through them. Ignore everything they do, and just maintain a straight line towards them. And for the sake of sticking close to the video, grab them by their shoulder or lapel whilst you stab them. Makes it easier to stab like a sewing machine.


----------



## Drasken

The jacket could be useful to distract the attacker, but it would give you a fraction of a second. If untrained to think that quickly, it wouldn't help much. The point though is not to stand your ground and use force against force, but to get off line of attack. Either way the fact is in an attack like this you should expect in all probability to be cut. You should focus on minimizing damage taken while controlling the knife and disabling the attacker.
But this is assuming the worst case scenario. Ideally you want a stool, long sturdy stick like a cane or the like to keep distance and even the playing field. This particular situation is quite a sucky situation to be in.


----------



## Cyriacus

Drasken said:


> The jacket could be useful to distract the attacker, but it would give you a fraction of a second. If untrained to think that quickly, it wouldn't help much. The point though is not to stand your ground and use force against force, but to get off line of attack. Either way the fact is in an attack like this you should expect in all probability to be cut. You should focus on minimizing damage taken while controlling the knife and disabling the attacker.
> But this is assuming the worst case scenario. Ideally you want a stool, long sturdy stick like a cane or the like to keep distance and even the playing field. This particular situation is quite a sucky situation to be in.



The worst case scenario is that your highly trained reflexes are useless. The video in some ways gives the defender too much hope.


----------



## Chris Parker

RTKDCMB said:


> Throw the jacket at the attackers face as a distraction and side step to the attackers left (the non-knife wielding side) and use a low turning kick to to trip him over and follow with a foot stomp to his head, leg  or ribs when he is on the ground - end of story.



Yeah.... you're gutted. End of story.



Cyriacus said:


> I really hope youre joking.



Agreed. But not really for the same reasons....



RTKDCMB said:


> Why would you say that?



Because it wouldn't work.

Aside from it being largely too slow, the method described is dangerously impractical and ineffective, and ignores the reality of the situation, from both the attacking and defending side. The most likely outcome is, if you're lucky, you might avoid the first slash.... but that's about it. The reaction from having the jacket thrown would be to (at best) get them to back away for a moment... which would mean your kick wouldn't be there (and, bluntly, you're putting a lot of faith in a low-percentage kick there... using it to "trip" a knife-man without any form of control over the knife is borderline suicidal). And, if they aren't really stopped, then most of the following just doesn't really work, especially not the way you're describing them.


----------



## Drasken

Cyriacus said:


> The worst case scenario is that your highly trained reflexes are useless. The video in some ways gives the defender too much hope.



That's also a good point. See that's another problem with a LOT of knife defense techniques out there. Yes, sometimes you get that stationary attacker... But what happens when you get a rushing stabbing maniac? There are ways to defend against this but nobody really talks about that. People are not prepared to encounter an armed assault on the street. And the defenses that WOULD work aren't 100% guaranteed to work.
On top of that, even if you CAN defend against this type of attack... well that assumes you see this coming in time.


----------



## MJS

I have to agree with Chris and Cyriacus.  IMHO, throwing something like a jacket, is not going to be as effective as one thinks. Sorry, but if you're going to take the time to throw something, I'd rather use something that is going to be more effective than a jacket.  Sorry, but when it comes to something like dealing with a knife, that is NOT the time to do something fancy.  IMO, there's ALOT of BS knife defenses out there, that if done in ANY fashion other than static, will probably result in serious injury or death.  People don't show those things, just like they don't show alot of other things.  And there are various reasons.  Perhaps the inst. thinks that what they teach will work...because their teacher and their teachers teacher, said so.  I call BS on that too!  I dont care if it works for them, I want to make sure it works for ME!  

Personally, I'd rather see someone gain control of the weapon arm, when possible, and go from there.  Forget all the fancy stuff.  Of course, if you can get the hell out of dodge, then do so, but running only works for so long, and may not work at all in many cases.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Chris Parker said:


> The reaction from having the jacket thrown would be to (at best) get them to back away for a moment... which would mean your kick wouldn't be there



Exactly how does one back away in the middle of a full sprint forward?


----------



## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> Exactly how does one back away in the middle of a full sprint forward?


Sidestep. Push back off the grounded foot. Im sure there are more ways.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Cyriacus said:


> Sidestep. Push back off the grounded foot. Im sure there are more ways.



None of those he could do in the first 10 seconds in that video.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Cyriacus said:


> Well, to begin with, grab a jacket and throw it at face height. See how long it takes and how pathetically it flutters through the air.
> Now throw the jacket and sidestep before picking one leg up off the ground.
> Now try and do all of that in less than a second with the kick.
> Now assume that you know that the attacker has the knife, which hand its in, and that you even know that theyre going to stab you with it.
> Now keep in mind that they are a human being with a brain between their ears.
> 
> Now, get a knife and a partner, then rush at them (you being the attacker) with the intent to physically collide your body into theirs. Have them sidestep, and feel all tingly with revelation as you, being a human with a brain, make a miniscule adjustment you probably wont even notice, rendering their sidestep a total waste of time under the circumstances, and if anything putting them on the beginnings of retreat/falling over whilst being stabbed. While youre at it, let them try and throw a jacket into your face so that you can totally ignore it and stab them anyway, whilst they waste time. Not only do jackets not hurt, but you dont need to be able to see someone to stab them, and thats assuming it didnt do what throwing jackets has done the times weve tried it, where it just sticks to the attackers shoulder like a sauna towel. Furthermore, youre letting them stab you whilst you stand on one leg after a sidestep. Even if you get the kick off, they are not going to trip over, and even if they did theyd fall into you. You know, with their stabby knife. Why? Well, let someone kick you like so, and observe as you totally ignore it and keep moving forward. Even if it broke your shin, who cares. Youre stabbing them and theyre standing on one leg with their body travelling away from your sheer forward momentum.
> 
> To help with the drill, bend your knees slightly, push off your back foot and gently pull with your front, then start with a shorter running pace before you break out into a full bolt charge. It makes it easier and faster to run from a standing start that way. Just something you pick up playing football, incase you dont. Make sure you dont slow down prior to colliding with your partner, since if you had a knife youd want to stick it through them. Ignore everything they do, and just maintain a straight line towards them. And for the sake of sticking close to the video, grab them by their shoulder or lapel whilst you stab them. Makes it easier to stab like a sewing machine.




Take a look at the video again exactly as it is. That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife. You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much., it was already in your hand ready to use. The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds). The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began. With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife. It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice. You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.


----------



## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> None of those he could do in the first 10 seconds in that video.



Do it yourself, then get back to me. I can do it, i dont see why he cant. Hes older, and in better physical condition than i am. Also, im doing it in a study.
Now lets have some fun.



RTKDCMB said:


> Take a look at the video again exactly as it is. That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife.



This is exhibit A of the video giving the defender too much credit.
On topic, a thick jacket is a softer jacket. Throwing a jacket takes time you dont have, and has little to no effect, let alone any effect which would benefit you at all.



> You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much.



You think i didnt know that? Noone has said the jacket wouldnt make contact. It just wouldnt do anything useful. Or anything else, for that matter.



> , it was already in your hand ready to use. The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds). The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began.



Exhibit B of the video giving the defender too much credit.
On track, lets analyse that. Ok - So, youre saying the guy two a step back, and two steps forward before he got close with the knife.
Before i reply to that, two steps is about as much as you need to make the third step cover a ton of distance.
So, lets look at the video. Before you even reach the one second mark, he does not take a step back. He pushes off his back foot and begins to step with his front foot. There are far more effective ways of running forward from a standing start, but thats the way he did it. Due to the ground not being terribly gripping, his foot slid back. Mash the pause/play button and rewatch it a few times.
He has his hand attached to the defender before you even reach the one second mark. Where are you getting your information about two whole seconds from?
Before the two second mark, the knife is in his torso, he is offbalanced and being driven back, and the attacker is in a pretty great position with his arm around the defenders back. I suggest you take a look at the video exactly as it is, and try again. The following stabs are mostly to his neck area.



> With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife.



You would not have time to sidestep. The thought probably wouldnt even cross your mind in time. Even if you did sidestep the adjustment the attacker would need to make is insignificant.



> It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice.



He would not have to stop and turn. Have you ever actually gone for a run? People arent uncoordinated idiots. Its one adjustment. Stand up, run in a straight line, then physically move your entire body one meter to the right. Behold how easy it is! Really, do it. Maybe youll believe seeing yourself do it more than youll believe everyone here telling you the same thing.



> You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.



The trip would not work. In fact, if he were somehow offset from you, itd be a pathetic jab at his leg whilst he took the time to move sideways and rush you from even closer than before, this time with no conceivable hope of escape no matter how good you think you are. If youd like to prove this one to yourself, ask a pal to turning kick you in the shin. Its not that bad, really. I doubt youd even feel it if it werent a full kick.
While youre at it, run in a straight line then sidestep. Its really easy.


----------



## Chris Parker

RTKDCMB said:


> Exactly how does one back away in the middle of a full sprint forward?



Simple hesitation, stopping the forward movement, or sidestepping as Cyriacus said. But more importantly, you may note I said that was your best possible result, as it might buy you a split second longer of not bleeding. More likely it would have little to no result, and you'd get run through as simply as the guy in the clip.



Cyriacus said:


> Sidestep. Push back off the grounded foot. Im sure there are more ways.



Yep.



RTKDCMB said:


> None of those he could do in the first 10 seconds in that video.



"The first 10 seconds"? The whole clip was only 10 seconds! Oh, and I'm not quite sure what you're meaning.... the side-stepping that Cyriacus was talking about was how the knifeman would be able to react (back away) as a result of the deadly jacket throw you suggested, not the defender... so it's really not something that is shown in the clip (as there's no throwing of the jacket to illicit such a responce). But if you're trying to suggest that side-stepping isn't an option for the defender, well, it would be a trained responce (and take a lot of conditioning, as the initial action would instinctively be to move back along the primal line/straight back), but there certainly was time for it. And it might have been far more successful than his actual action of a hesitant retreat, which had him on the off-foot when the knifeman caught him...



RTKDCMB said:


> Take a look at the video again exactly as it is.



Yeah... I have a few times.



RTKDCMB said:


> That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife.



Hmm. The only real throw that could have any effect would be to the face (to hide where you are). The catch is that, for that throw to be effective, you'd need to be so close you'd be in knife range anyway. Besides, the best thing you can do with a thick jacket is try to wrap it around your arm to try to fend off the thrusts, protecting your arm that way. Makes it hard to catch/control the knife arm, of course, and is a short-term answer at best, but if you're using it to buy time to escape, maybe.



RTKDCMB said:


> You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much., it was already in your hand ready to use.



Yeah... the problems are detailed above. Suffice to say, this is a bad idea.



RTKDCMB said:


> The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds).



Really? You think so? I'll say this bluntly. You'd be stabbed. Look at the video again... the actual time it took for the knifeman to step in, cover the distance, and stab, was less than half a second. He started his action halfway through the first second, and had landed his thrust just after the 1 second mark was hit. At the 2 second mark, he was delivering his second thrust (to the throat). The defender was trying to step away, and was caught on one foot. If you think you have enough time there to side-step and kick, you really are underestimating the timeline here, as well as vastly over-estimating the practicality of such an action (against the attack shown in the clip).



RTKDCMB said:


> The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began. With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife. It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice. You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.



Yeah.... you'd be stabbed. Repeatedly.


----------



## MJS

RTKDCMB said:


> Take a look at the video again exactly as it is. That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife. You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much., it was already in your hand ready to use. The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds). The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began. With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife. It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice. You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.



IMO, if the defender was that concerned with throwing anything, then why didn't he?  He was holding the jacket up as if he was in Spain in the middle of a bullfight...lol.  I watched that clip a few times just now.  The badguy closed the distance in 1sec.  Frankly, in that situation, kicking would be the last thing on my mind.  Instead, with that close distance, I'd have rather seen the guy do what he could to gain control of the guys arm.  Sure, its a no brainer you're probably going to get cut, but as I said, with the close distance, there aren't a whole bunch of options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

In the clip we saw, there certainly wasn't 21ft.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Instructor said:


> One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away.  It really throws off their game.



That only works if your other hand is anywhere near you knife holding hand and if you can catch it then the other guy can too.


----------



## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> That only works if your other hand is anywhere near you knife holding hand and if you can catch it then the other guy can too.



So, move your hand over to your other hand. Take a pen, or a spoon, and try it.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Cyriacus said:


> Do it yourself, then get back to me. I can do it, i dont see why he cant. Hes older, and in better physical condition than i am. Also, im doing it in a study.
> Now lets have some fun.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exhibit A of the video giving the defender too much credit.
> On topic, a thick jacket is a softer jacket. Throwing a jacket takes time you dont have, and has little to no effect, let alone any effect which would benefit you at all.
> 
> 
> 
> You think i didnt know that? Noone has said the jacket wouldnt make contact. It just wouldnt do anything useful. Or anything else, for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Exhibit B of the video giving the defender too much credit.
> On track, lets analyse that. Ok - So, youre saying the guy two a step back, and two steps forward before he got close with the knife.
> Before i reply to that, two steps is about as much as you need to make the third step cover a ton of distance.
> So, lets look at the video. Before you even reach the one second mark, he does not take a step back. He pushes off his back foot and begins to step with his front foot. There are far more effective ways of running forward from a standing start, but thats the way he did it. Due to the ground not being terribly gripping, his foot slid back. Mash the pause/play button and rewatch it a few times.
> He has his hand attached to the defender before you even reach the one second mark. Where are you getting your information about two whole seconds from?
> Before the two second mark, the knife is in his torso, he is offbalanced and being driven back, and the attacker is in a pretty great position with his arm around the defenders back. I suggest you take a look at the video exactly as it is, and try again. The following stabs are mostly to his neck area.
> 
> 
> 
> You would not have time to sidestep. The thought probably wouldnt even cross your mind in time. Even if you did sidestep the adjustment the attacker would need to make is insignificant.
> 
> 
> 
> He would not have to stop and turn. Have you ever actually gone for a run? People arent uncoordinated idiots. Its one adjustment. Stand up, run in a straight line, then physically move your entire body one meter to the right. Behold how easy it is! Really, do it. Maybe youll believe seeing yourself do it more than youll believe everyone here telling you the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The trip would not work. In fact, if he were somehow offset from you, itd be a pathetic jab at his leg whilst he took the time to move sideways and rush you from even closer than before, this time with no conceivable hope of escape no matter how good you think you are. If youd like to prove this one to yourself, ask a pal to turning kick you in the shin. Its not that bad, really. I doubt youd even feel it if it werent a full kick.
> While youre at it, run in a straight line then sidestep. Its really easy.



A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done. 

-Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance. 

-This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.

-It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.

-Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.

- If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.

- He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.

- A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.

- As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.

- The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.

-If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).


----------



## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.



They say nothing about traditional martial arts. Crappy knife defense is found in RBSD as well.
Also, that is pretty much how a knife attack happens. Rush forward > Stab repeatedly.



> -Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.



And even if you did, it wouldnt do you much good.



> -This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.



It gives the defender too much hope of survival. Hes aware that the aggressor has a knife, hes aware that hes going to be assaulted, and theyre a fair distance away from each other. Among other things.



> -It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.



You do not need to be able to see a person in order to stab them. Also, i refer back to my previous answer. Most of the time when weve tried similar things, the jacket gets caught on the shoulder. I dont doubt that wont always be the case, but even when it does get on the face it doesnt do any good.



> -Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.



Of course. Now go try it yourself.
Please, make sure your attacker is running as fast as he can, and doesnt slow down when youre about to collide.



> - If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.



His foot pushes, and slides back. Call it whatever you want.



> - He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.



Nope - He can grab your shoulder, instead. Or anything else his hand attaches to. In fact, the arm serves as a pretty great obstacle even if it doesnt catch anything. You can also just wrap your arm around them a splitsecond later when your bodies collide.



> - A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.



Leather isnt exactly a lethal weapon. Even if you whip the thing the damage will be superficial at best. I doubt youd even feel it in the heat of the moment.



> - As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.



All of which assumes that the trip stands a chance of doing anything at all, that you have the full 1.5 seconds to do the sidestep and kick, and of course that the other person doesnt make an insignificant adjustment towards you.



> - The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.



Forward momentum is the reason why tripping isnt terribly fabulous. Really, try it with a partner. Let him turning kick your shin as hard as he wants. It might be bruised up after, but it wont drop you.
And again, he doesnt need to stab across himself. He isnt braindead.



> -If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).



If you say so.


----------



## MJS

RTKDCMB said:


> A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.



I'll agree that there's alot of crap out there, but IMO, I don't think it's limited to just TMAs.  I'm a fan of RBSD methods, but no, I don't run around thinking they're the end all, be all of training.  And if what you said is true, then for the RBSD clips to not show what they think should be done...well, that sounds like a flaw to me, as well.  Furthermore, where in the clip does it say that its a TMA or RBSD comparison?



> -Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.



Yet down below, you said if its timed correctly.  I think you're dismissing some important things, but thats just my opinion.



> -This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.



Nope, just shows him getting stabbed, and standing there holding his coat.



> -It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.



IMO, given the close distance, I doubt even if he did throw it, that it'd have much of an effect.  



> -Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.



Yes, as long as the timing is right, right? 



> - If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.



Ok.



> - He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.



Thats true, however, nothing says that the attacker can't grab another body part.  



> - A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.



Ok.



> - As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.



So, if thats the case, then why does it seem in the Tueller Drill, that the guy with the gun, usually gets stabbed?  I think you're making it sound easier than it is.



> - The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.



Again, the key wording..if timed correctly.  



> -If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).



LOL....ok.


----------



## Langenschwert

Step one: Don't get stabbed. Do a low cover and intercept the attacker's forearm. As you do this, step back explosiovely and hollow out your abdomen away from the attack, kind of like a performing a sprawl, but maintain your balance. Don't think about blocking the knife, remember to concentrate on the forearm when training. If you focus on the knife, you'll put your hands right onto the point. Better than getting it in the gut, but still.

Step two: control the weapon arm. You have him by the forearm. Now, don't let go. Hang on for dear life, because it's on the line.

Step three: defang the snake. There are any number of credible ways to proceed such as twisting for an arm break over the shoulder or "simply" (nothing is ever simple against a knife) grab the blade and twist it against the thumb. You'll get cut but so what.. you're in a knife fight... suck it up and realize you'll likely end up in the hospital no matter what. But better than than the morgue.

The simple reality is there is no knife defence that will succeed against a canny, well-trained attacker. That is the way it is. Any knife defence will be messy, sloppy and bloody in reality.

Nobody "wins" a knife fight. You can only_ survive _one if you haven't lost.

-Mark


----------



## RTKDCMB

MJS said:


> *I was referring to timing of the clock in the video not the timing of the defender.*


----------



## RTKDCMB

Langenschwert said:


> Step one: Don't get stabbed. Do a low cover and intercept the attacker's forearm. As you do this, step back explosiovely and hollow out your abdomen away from the attack, kind of like a performing a sprawl, but maintain your balance. Don't think about blocking the knife, remember to concentrate on the forearm when training. If you focus on the knife, you'll put your hands right onto the point. Better than getting it in the gut, but still.
> 
> Step two: control the weapon arm. You have him by the forearm. Now, don't let go. Hang on for dear life, because it's on the line.
> 
> Step three: defang the snake. There are any number of credible ways to proceed such as twisting for an arm break over the shoulder or "simply" (nothing is ever simple against a knife) grab the blade and twist it against the thumb. You'll get cut but so what.. you're in a knife fight... suck it up and realize you'll likely end up in the hospital no matter what. But better than than the morgue.
> 
> The simple reality is there is no knife defence that will succeed against a canny, well-trained attacker. That is the way it is. Any knife defence will be messy, sloppy and bloody in reality.
> 
> Nobody "wins" a knife fight. You can only_ survive _one if you haven't lost.
> 
> -Mark


This can work if you can stop his forward momentum and don't forget to move the knife to one side, I'd grab the wrist with both hands for maximum control and kick him before attempting to break his arm. I have seen students forget to move the knife to one side, perform the kick and actually pull the knife into themselves.

Defanging the snake refers to a strategy of cutting the attacking arm with a knife of your own by slashing or withdrawing the knife in a certain way when it is blocked (can be negated somewhat by proper blocking technique), if I remember correctly.

I always tell students that if you are to defend against a knife then expect to get cut so be absolutely sure it is necessary.


----------



## Drasken

Rather than continue to make points about knife defense I recommend trying this.
Take a marker, give a friend this marker. Tell your friend to attack you randomly and aggressively with said marker. Try different defenses out against said marker as though it were a knife.
Watch how quickly you are covered in lines and dots where you are "stabbed and cut"

I learned very quickly that knife defense is great to know, but taking out an aggressive attacker wielding a knife is not as easy as it looks. Even when well trained it doesn't mean you can do it easily because one mistake can mean serious injury or death.
Also the awesome flashy stuff seen in movies... Yeah I don't recommend it. And last time I saw a kick used against a n with a "knife" ( in this case a red sharpie ) the guy just quickly stabbed the leg. Which would have been a stab to the femoral artery.

I agree with Chris, the jacket would serve you better if wrapped around your arm to minimize damage from slashing or thrusts while you attempt to gain control of that weapon. Either way, train like stated above. Simple techniques and reactions, when trained, are usually the most effective. But by no means are they guaranteed.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Drasken said:


> Rather than continue to make points about knife defense I recommend trying this.
> Take a marker, give a friend this marker. Tell your friend to attack you randomly and aggressively with said marker. Try different defenses out against said marker as though it were a knife.
> Watch how quickly you are covered in lines and dots where you are "stabbed and cut"



That would be like getting attacked by Mr Squiggle.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh dear. I'll try once more....



RTKDCMB said:


> A couple of points - The video is not about showing how to defend against a knife only to show how the author of the video thinks a real knife attack occurs. The defender in the video shows nothing but how to get stabbed. Like a typical RBSD video they show how 'traditional martial arts do not work' but offer not suggestions whatsoever of how they think it should be done.



Well, you're right in what the video is claiming to show (for the record, it's not entirely correct.... most knife assaults are ambushes, rather than rushes, but the frenetic energy and speed is accurate). The real point of the clip, though (according to the uploader) is that, unless you're training to handle that type of sudden, explosive attack, there's a very good chance that your knife defence is deeply, some might say fatally, flawed. And, honestly, from reading through your take on such things, I'd suggest that that might be the case here...



RTKDCMB said:


> -Timing and decimal point errors aside it takes less time to take one step to the side than it took the guy to close that distance.



I don't think you really get the effect that reaction timing has on things here.... are you familiar with the OODA loop? Oh, and no, by the way. Taking a step back, or even to the side, takes longer than a step forward. That's mainly due to the way we, as human beings, are designed. We're angled in one direction (forwards), and optimised for that direction when it comes to fast, explosive movement. Our hip flexors, our knees, our ankles, are all designed to support a sudden spring forward, not back, or sideways. So.... no. Wrong.



RTKDCMB said:


> -This video does not give any credit to the defender at all.



The video isn't about the defender. It's about the attack.



RTKDCMB said:


> -It takes a hell of a lot more time to wrap a jacket around your arm than it does to throw it away. The jacket is a distraction, nothing more, if it gets in his face and covers his eyes then it is all the distraction you need.



Uh, actually, no. Wrapping the jacket around your forearm/wrist is a gross motor, single action, basically done by holding in one hand, and rapidly rotating your wrist/hand once. Throwing (to get the result you're after) requires holding in two hands, opening the jacket (to get the proper "spread"), bringing it back towards your body, extending both arms towards the attacker, releasing the jacket, and hoping that the simple wind resistance (heightened by the opening of the jacket) doesn't slow the throw down too much once the jacket is released, ending in a low-impact (ineffective impact) contact. And, let's not forget, once you've thrown the jacket, you've just thrown away the only real asset you had for protection... for very little return, if anything. Oh, and no, that's really not all the distraction you need, as, in the heat of a real assault, it's really not enough of a distraction to be truly effective. Sorry.



RTKDCMB said:


> -Just because you can't side step quick enough doesn't mean no one else can.



Here's the reality. We, as people, are hard-wired to move along what is referred to as the "Primal Line". That line is straight forward (to advance), and straight back (to retreat). A typical "fright" responce is to start to move back along this primal line.... which is exactly what is seen in the clip. It takes a hell of a lot of training to be able to move in any other direction as an initial action, as it is going directly against your hard-wired survival instincts, honed through thousands of generations. So while side-stepping is very useful, as an initial action, it's just not going to be there (in a real, sudden, violent, high-adrenaline assault). It would be a second, or third action, at best... which means you need to have survived long enough to be able to employ it in the first place. Oh, and I don't think you really get the reality of reactionary time, or human mechanics here, let alone the realities of such assaults.



RTKDCMB said:


> - If he moves his foot backwards and plants it on the ground that qualifies as a step backwards.



Yeah... not really sure what this is in relation to... are you talking about the defender or the attacker here? Just not really seeing the relevance, other than trying a semantic argument to bolster your opinions...



RTKDCMB said:


> - He can't grab your arm as he did in the video if your arm is not there.



You know, I just paused the clip with the time-code stating 0:01 (and the first stab had already landed, by the way...), and I gotta say, there is no grab to an arm.... the attacker has gotten hold of the defender (well, victim, really) by wrapping his right arm behind and around the neck (hmm, the knifeman is left handed... interesting... could just be a reversed video...). Besides, no-one mentioned anyone grabbing an arm....



RTKDCMB said:


> - A thicker jacket is a softer jacket only if it is made of softer material (not leather for example) Not really relevant.



Hmm. I'm really not sure of the point being made here (on either side).



RTKDCMB said:


> - As for the time it took to get within stabbing distance, my admittedly crude use of a stopwatch puts it at about 1.5 seconds, more than enough time to side step and kick/trip.



Yeah.... you'd be stabbed. Lots.



RTKDCMB said:


> - The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes. The side step to the non-knife wielding hand pouts you as far away from the knife as you can get in that small amount of time. The guy would be tripped over before he gets a chance to turn around or change position (even a 10 year old in a playground could trip someone over running at them) or stab/slash across himself, the stabber has too much forward momentum to do that.



Tell you what, let's ignore the lack of reality to this tactic, and look at the low possibility that you actually managed to "trip" the knifeman coming in towards you... what do you think their responce would be? I'll give you a clue... if someone's attacking with that amount of velocity (and aggression), they're not going to be stopped by being tripped... and they'll be fairly committed to injuring/killing you. That means you're dealing with someone acting with a survival mentality (unconsciously)... so an obstacle, causing them to start to fall, will have them immediately try to retain balance.... which will commonly be achieved by reaching out with the spare hand, and grabbing hold of something (in the situation you describe, most likely you) to steady themselves... which will have them quite simply falling, uncontrolled towards you with a knife. Bad, bad, bad plan. They will not fall on their own knife, they will not slash or stab themselves (more likely the knife hand will reach out [away from themselves] in an attempt to keep balance, for the record), so again, there is a large disconnect with reality in your plan.



RTKDCMB said:


> -If you can't make a simple technique like that work then there is not much hope for you (not you specifically).



The deeply (fatally) flawed one you're suggesting? I'm thinking if you try it, there's not much hope for you (yeah, you specifically).



Langenschwert said:


> Step one: Don't get stabbed. Do a low cover and intercept the attacker's forearm. As you do this, step back explosiovely and hollow out your abdomen away from the attack, kind of like a performing a sprawl, but maintain your balance. Don't think about blocking the knife, remember to concentrate on the forearm when training. If you focus on the knife, you'll put your hands right onto the point. Better than getting it in the gut, but still.
> 
> Step two: control the weapon arm. You have him by the forearm. Now, don't let go. Hang on for dear life, because it's on the line.
> 
> Step three: defang the snake. There are any number of credible ways to proceed such as twisting for an arm break over the shoulder or "simply" (nothing is ever simple against a knife) grab the blade and twist it against the thumb. You'll get cut but so what.. you're in a knife fight... suck it up and realize you'll likely end up in the hospital no matter what. But better than than the morgue.
> 
> The simple reality is there is no knife defence that will succeed against a canny, well-trained attacker. That is the way it is. Any knife defence will be messy, sloppy and bloody in reality.
> 
> Nobody "wins" a knife fight. You can only_ survive _one if you haven't lost.
> 
> -Mark



Ah, that's much better!

Some notes for RTKDCMB here... the first point Mark makes shows an understanding of the Primal Line, and gives a practical, and effective responce. The second is essential (if possible, I recommend two hands in a high/low grip (with one hand controlling the forearm, the other the upper arm, and marrying the arm to your body for the most control possible). The third is really the only one up for debate, and that might be primarily a matter of terminology. For instance, we don't focus on the idea of disarming (which is what "defang the snake" commonly refers to), but do focus on ending the encounter without giving the attacker the ability to use the weapon.

In essence, our defence is very much what Mark describes. The first step is to both avoid the knife, and to put a barrier inbetween the knife and your body, whether a forearm, their arm, an improvised item, a car, whatever. So long as there is something between your body and the knife, you aren't being stabbed (to the body). Next is control, which needs to be very tight and secure (we train against the knifeman trying to regain control of it constantly), and then we get to the "finishing" actions, which might be a barrage of strikes, a take-down (using the momentum of the attacker trying to regain their knifearm), or a couple of other method we have, ending commonly with a disarm once the attack has been stopped (so it can't be resumed).

Mark's last two sentences are absolutely true.



RTKDCMB said:


> *I was referring to timing of the clock in the video not the timing of the defender.*



Huh?



RTKDCMB said:


> This can work if you can stop his forward momentum and don't forget to move the knife to one side, I'd grab the wrist with both hands for maximum control and kick him before attempting to break his arm. I have seen students forget to move the knife to one side, perform the kick and actually pull the knife into themselves.



Right. Uh, no, really. Stopping the forward momentum isn't actually necessary... and grabbing the wrist with both arms is actually not getting a lot of control, as you're allowing free movement of the elbow and shoulder (no control). That can lead to the arm whipping around a fair bit, and you getting your arm cut up as the knife is retrieved pretty easily. As far as your students pulling the knife onto themselves, well, "forgetting to move the knife to one side" isn't the issue (as, again, that's really not a hugely realistic ideal). I'm not putting a lot of stock in your knife defence teaching, honestly, as most of it seems to be ignorant of the realities of such encounters.



RTKDCMB said:


> Defanging the snake refers to a strategy of cutting the attacking arm with a knife of your own by slashing or withdrawing the knife in a certain way when it is blocked (can be negated somewhat by proper blocking technique), if I remember correctly.



No, that's one expression/application of the principle, if you have a blade yourself as well, it's not the definition of "defanging".



RTKDCMB said:


> I always tell students that if you are to defend against a knife then expect to get cut so be absolutely sure it is necessary.



Especially if following the methods you're suggesting....



Drasken said:


> Rather than continue to make points about knife defense I recommend trying this.
> Take a marker, give a friend this marker. Tell your friend to attack you randomly and aggressively with said marker. Try different defenses out against said marker as though it were a knife.
> Watch how quickly you are covered in lines and dots where you are "stabbed and cut"
> 
> I learned very quickly that knife defense is great to know, but taking out an aggressive attacker wielding a knife is not as easy as it looks. Even when well trained it doesn't mean you can do it easily because one mistake can mean serious injury or death.
> Also the awesome flashy stuff seen in movies... Yeah I don't recommend it. And last time I saw a kick used against a n with a "knife" ( in this case a red sharpie ) the guy just quickly stabbed the leg. Which would have been a stab to the femoral artery.
> 
> I agree with Chris, the jacket would serve you better if wrapped around your arm to minimize damage from slashing or thrusts while you attempt to gain control of that weapon. Either way, train like stated above. Simple techniques and reactions, when trained, are usually the most effective. But by no means are they guaranteed.





RTKDCMB said:


> That would be like getting attacked by Mr Squiggle.



I think you have completely missed the point that Drasken was making... as well as showing (again) that you don't have much of a realistic idea of what knife defence is all about.


----------



## Cyriacus

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. I'm really not sure of the point being made here (on either side).



I commented that jackets are soft things. Which they are. Leather jackets are also soft. Soft, non-solid things arent usually capable of any sort of blunt impact.


----------



## Chris Parker

Yep, I got that.... but I'm not sure that RTKDCMB was saying that the jacket would be used as a real impact weapon... of course, that does limit it's usage to pure distraction (which it is rather ineffective at in this context), but I don't think that impact was part of the argument.


----------



## Cyriacus

Chris Parker said:


> Yep, I got that.... but I'm not sure that RTKDCMB was saying that the jacket would be used as a real impact weapon... of course, that does limit it's usage to pure distraction (which it is rather ineffective at in this context), but I don't think that impact was part of the argument.


That was the point - It wasnt exactly intended to be a point of discussion. Just a comment. It came shortly after stating that it wasnt a good distraction for various reasons, including but not limited to that you dont need to see someone to be able to stab them. So, if it isnt a worthwhile distraction and its too soft to do any kind of damage, youre left with very few uses for it. One of which is using it as a layer between your skin and a pointy thing, as youve been saying.


----------



## Drasken

It's kind of interesting that so many people think a thrown jacket is so useful in self defense. Against a punch or kick is one thing, but priorities change drastically when a weapon is in the equation.
Now if we were talking about a jacket like the one my friend wears that would be a different story. But he rides a motorcycle so his jacket has steel and carbon fiber plates inside it. Makes decent armor and is heavy and hard enough to knock someone silly or used to hit the weapon hand. Soft jackets just really aren't that useful.

That being said, I believe my part in this debate is pretty well over. My point stands that experiencing attacks firsthand is much better than all the advice in the world. And I don't expect anyone in the world to take my advice, or anyone else's at face value for that matter.

The point of training with a marker in place of a knife ( which I agree with Chris, I think the point was missed ) is that, unlike the training knives, it leaves a mark without damage. After a defense is executed you can look to see any contact with the "blade" and gauge the injuries you would have incured. The results will likely surprise you, I know it did me.
It was good advice to do this though, because it was a wake up call without actual damage. I was glad I trained in this manner because it allowed me to figure out good defenses and also to not get overconfident in my ability. And before doing this exercise I admit that I was WAY too sure in my abilities. The first time I tried this training exercise with a marker, I was covered in graffiti.
I could only imagine what might have happened if I had encountered an actual blade back then. And in all honesty, it probably would have been very bad for me.


----------



## MJS

RTKDCMB said:


> *I was referring to timing of the clock in the video not the timing of the defender.*



Ah, ok.  I did see mention of the stopwatch and video time.  I guess when I read this:

"The defense I suggested is simple and effective if timed correctly with even moderate reflexes." 

I took that as you talking about body movement timing, not the clock on the clip.


----------



## MJS

RTKDCMB said:


> This can work if you can stop his forward momentum and don't forget to move the knife to one side, I'd grab the wrist with both hands for maximum control and kick him before attempting to break his arm. I have seen students forget to move the knife to one side, perform the kick and actually pull the knife into themselves.



That's pretty much the method that I prefer to use...gain control, work in counter strikes, and then if possible, go for the disarm.  



> Defanging the snake refers to a strategy of cutting the attacking arm with a knife of your own by slashing or withdrawing the knife in a certain way when it is blocked (can be negated somewhat by proper blocking technique), if I remember correctly.



Yes, one method is with the blade, however, using a blunt object, ie: a stick, works just as well. 



> I always tell students that if you are to defend against a knife then expect to get cut so be absolutely sure it is necessary.



Agreed.


----------



## MJS

Drasken said:


> It's kind of interesting that so many people think a thrown jacket is so useful in self defense. Against a punch or kick is one thing, but priorities change drastically when a weapon is in the equation.
> Now if we were talking about a jacket like the one my friend wears that would be a different story. But he rides a motorcycle so his jacket has steel and carbon fiber plates inside it. Makes decent armor and is heavy and hard enough to knock someone silly or used to hit the weapon hand. Soft jackets just really aren't that useful.
> 
> That being said, I believe my part in this debate is pretty well over. My point stands that experiencing attacks firsthand is much better than all the advice in the world. And I don't expect anyone in the world to take my advice, or anyone else's at face value for that matter.
> 
> The point of training with a marker in place of a knife ( which I agree with Chris, I think the point was missed ) is that, unlike the training knives, it leaves a mark without damage. After a defense is executed you can look to see any contact with the "blade" and gauge the injuries you would have incured. The results will likely surprise you, I know it did me.
> It was good advice to do this though, because it was a wake up call without actual damage. I was glad I trained in this manner because it allowed me to figure out good defenses and also to not get overconfident in my ability. And before doing this exercise I admit that I was WAY too sure in my abilities. The first time I tried this training exercise with a marker, I was covered in graffiti.
> I could only imagine what might have happened if I had encountered an actual blade back then. And in all honesty, it probably would have been very bad for me.




Great points...no pun intended.   I may've mention the jacket in some of my posts, but I do know that earlier, I mentioned something that would be a bit more effective.  If I had a choice between tossing a jacket or a heavier object, I'd of course pick the latter.  As for the more realistic training, ie: no lie blade, marker, I agree...those are great training tools, and if one is serious about SD with a knife, then this is necessary.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Chris Parker said:


> Well, you're right in what the video is claiming to show (for the record, it's not entirely correct.... most knife assaults are ambushes, rather than rushes, but the frenetic energy and speed is accurate). The real point of the clip, though (according to the uploader) is that, unless you're training to handle that type of sudden, explosive attack, there's a very good chance that your knife defence is deeply, some might say fatally, flawed. And, honestly, from reading through your take on such things, I'd suggest that that might be the case here...
> *
> I train to handle any kind of attack -  there are basically 3 - Frenzy (hardest to defend against), single attack (often precedes a frenzy) and the threatening point or wave.*
> 
> 
> I don't think you really get the effect that reaction timing has on things here.... are you familiar with the OODA loop? Oh, and no, by the way. Taking a step back, or even to the side, takes longer than a step forward. That's mainly due to the way we, as human beings, are designed. We're angled in one direction (forwards), and optimised for that direction when it comes to fast, explosive movement. Our hip flexors, our knees, our ankles, are all designed to support a sudden spring forward, not back, or sideways. So.... no. Wrong.
> 
> *Had to google the OODA loop that's just part of the natural thinking process that is improved by training. By your reasoning side steps are completely useless which is simply not true.*
> 
> Uh, actually, no. Wrapping the jacket around your forearm/wrist is a gross motor, single action, basically done by holding in one hand, and rapidly rotating your wrist/hand once.
> 
> *Unless you do it wrong, like do it too far forward, cover just your hand or it slips from your grip before it wraps in which case you just wasted valuable time. It's a good tactic but it can also reduce the dexterity in that hand.*
> 
> Throwing (to get the result you're after) requires holding in two hands, opening the jacket (to get the proper "spread"), bringing it back towards your body, extending both arms towards the attacker, releasing the jacket, and hoping that the simple wind resistance (heightened by the opening of the jacket) doesn't slow the throw down too much once the jacket is released, ending in a low-impact (ineffective impact) contact.
> *
> That would have to be just about the slowest way to throw a jacket and for crying out loud throwing the jacket is not for impact (I obviously don't expect it to knock him out or injure him).*
> 
> And, let's not forget, once you've thrown the jacket, you've just thrown away the only real asset you had for protection... for very little return, if anything. Oh, and no, that's really not all the distraction you need, as, in the heat of a real assault, it's really not enough of a distraction to be truly effective. Sorry.
> 
> *Using the jacket as a barrier to the knife didn't work to well for the defender in the video.*
> 
> Here's the reality. We, as people, are hard-wired to move along what is referred to as the "Primal Line". That line is straight forward (to advance), and straight back (to retreat). A typical "fright" responce is to start to move back along this primal line.... which is exactly what is seen in the clip. It takes a hell of a lot of training to be able to move in any other direction as an initial action, as it is going directly against your hard-wired survival instincts, honed through thousands of generations. So while side-stepping is very useful, as an initial action, it's just not going to be there (in a real, sudden, violent, high-adrenaline assault). It would be a second, or third action, at best... which means you need to have survived long enough to be able to employ it in the first place. Oh, and I don't think you really get the reality of reactionary time, or human mechanics here, let alone the realities of such assaults.
> 
> *Side stepping is quite a natural reaction for me I have avoided many impacts doing it. People are hard wired, yes,  but they also have concious thought, reflexes, intelengence and skills that evolve with training that can override the hard wiring. A non-martial arts example -  you see something falling you instinctivley try to catch it, unless it happens to be hot. A friend of mine was with me at TAFE and she droped a clay pot out of the tongs she was pulling it out of a furnace set at 600 degrees and went to catch it in her hand (hard wired response) I grabbed her arm and stopped her in time (concious thought) and reflexes).
> *
> Tell you what, let's ignore the lack of reality to this tactic, and look at the low possibility that you actually managed to "trip" the knifeman coming in towards you... what do you think their responce would be? I'll give you a clue... if someone's attacking with that amount of velocity (and aggression), they're not going to be stopped by being tripped... and they'll be fairly committed to injuring/killing you. That means you're dealing with someone acting with a survival mentality (unconsciously)... so an obstacle, causing them to start to fall, will have them immediately try to retain balance.... which will commonly be achieved by reaching out with the spare hand, and grabbing hold of something (in the situation you describe, most likely you) to steady themselves... which will have them quite simply falling, uncontrolled towards you with a knife. Bad, bad, bad plan.
> *
> I will try to put this in simple terms anyone can understand - It is completely impossible for someone to travel forward and trip and fall on someone standing next to him at 90 degrees from his direction of travel. When he falls the knife would be nowhere near me, especially considering I will be on the opposite side of his knife holding hand.*
> 
> They will not fall on their own knife, they will not slash or stab themselves (more likely the knife hand will reach out [away from themselves] in an attempt to keep balance, for the record), so again, there is a large disconnect with reality in your plan.
> *
> Don't seem to remember ever mentioning him falling on his knife or slashing or stabbing himself. His knife hand can reach out all it wants, I will be on the other side, in any case the natural reaction of someone falling forward is to reach out in front or underneath them not to the side.*
> 
> The deeply (fatally) flawed one you're suggesting? I'm thinking if you try it, there's not much hope for you (yeah, you specifically).
> 
> *What ever you say.*
> 
> In essence, our defence is very much what Mark describes. The first step is to both avoid the knife, and to put a barrier inbetween the knife and your body, whether a forearm, their arm, an improvised item, a car, whatever. So long as there is something between your body and the knife, you aren't being stabbed (to the body). Next is control, which needs to be very tight and secure (we train against the knifeman trying to regain control of it constantly), and then we get to the "finishing" actions, which might be a barrage of strikes, a take-down (using the momentum of the attacker trying to regain their knifearm), or a couple of other method we have, ending commonly with a disarm once the attack has been stopped (so it can't be resumed).
> 
> *I also use those methods, if you are going to block the knifeman's arm make it hurt and make the following strike(s) hurt even more.*
> 
> Right. Uh, no, really. Stopping the forward momentum isn't actually necessary... and grabbing the wrist with both arms is actually not getting a lot of control, as you're allowing free movement of the elbow and shoulder (no control). That can lead to the arm whipping around a fair bit, and you getting your arm cut up as the knife is retrieved pretty easily.
> 
> *It does not matter so much if his elbow and shoulder can move, its my two arms versus his one so unless he has twice my strength or is hopped up on drugs or I am just trying to hold him there for more than 2 seconds that knife is not going anywhere near anything vital.*
> 
> As far as your students pulling the knife onto themselves, well, "forgetting to move the knife to one side" isn't the issue (as, again, that's really not a hugely realistic ideal).
> *
> I am referring to beginners mainly doing the technique for the first time.*
> 
> I think you have completely missed the point that Drasken was making... as well as showing (again) that you don't have much of a realistic idea of what knife defence is all about.



*That's what is commonly referred to as a joke - Google Mr Squiggle.*


----------



## MJS

I know you're directing this at Chris, but I thought I'd comment as well.  
*






			I train to handle any kind of attack -  there are basically 3 - Frenzy (hardest to defend against), single attack (often precedes a frenzy) and the threatening point or wave.
		
Click to expand...


*Ok



*



			Had to google the OODA loop that's just part of the natural thinking process that is improved by training. By your reasoning side steps are completely useless which is simply not true.
		
Click to expand...


*I had mentioned the Tueller Drill.  I'm not saying sidestepping is useless, however, it may not be the best thing to do, situation depending.  

*



			Unless you do it wrong, like do it too far forward, cover just your hand or it slips from your grip before it wraps in which case you just wasted valuable time. It's a good tactic but it can also reduce the dexterity in that hand.
		
Click to expand...


*I'm still curious as to what the fixation is with the jacket.  

*



			That would have to be just about the slowest way to throw a jacket and for crying out loud throwing the jacket is not for impact (I obviously don't expect it to knock him out or injure him).
		
Click to expand...


*Again, whats the big thing with the jacket?  I mean really...unless you're already holding it, I'd rather keep it on and worry about saving my ***, rather than taking the jacket off, in hopes to wrap it around my hand or throw it.  


*



			Using the jacket as a barrier to the knife didn't work to well for the defender in the video.
		
Click to expand...


*LOL...more jacket stuff! 


*



			Side stepping is quite a natural reaction for me I have avoided many impacts doing it. People are hard wired, yes,  but they also have concious thought, reflexes, intelengence and skills that evolve with training that can override the hard wiring. A non-martial arts example -  you see something falling you instinctivley try to catch it, unless it happens to be hot. A friend of mine was with me at TAFE and she droped a clay pot out of the tongs she was pulling it out of a furnace set at 600 degrees and went to catch it in her hand (hard wired response) I grabbed her arm and stopped her in time (concious thought) and reflexes).
		
Click to expand...



*Again, I'll refer back to the Tueller Drill.  Seems like those guys didn't have much luck sidestepping...and they were 21ft apart.

*



			I will try to put this in simple terms anyone can understand - It is completely impossible for someone to travel forward and trip and fall on someone standing next to him at 90 degrees from his direction of travel. When he falls the knife would be nowhere near me, especially considering I will be on the opposite side of his knife holding hand.
		
Click to expand...


*I'll defer back to the Tueller Drill.  

*



			Don't seem to remember ever mentioning him falling on his knife or slashing or stabbing himself. His knife hand can reach out all it wants, I will be on the other side, in any case the natural reaction of someone falling forward is to reach out in front or underneath them not to the side.
		
Click to expand...


*Of course, we shouldn't forget that environment dictates what we can/can't do.  Playing devils advocate for a moment...what if you were unable to do what you describe?  


*



			I also use those methods, if you are going to block the knifeman's arm make it hurt and make the following strike(s) hurt even more.
		
Click to expand...


*Agree.  


*



			It does not matter so much if his elbow and shoulder can move, its my two arms versus his one so unless he has twice my strength or is hopped up on drugs or I am just trying to hold him there for more than 2 seconds that knife is not going anywhere near anything vital.
		
Click to expand...


*Of course, lets not forget that he (the bad guy) has another hand, that he'll most likely be using to strike.  I've got no issues with the 2 hand grip, but the position of your own body while doing it, is also important.


----------



## Chris Parker

Right.



RTKDCMB said:


> *I train to handle any kind of attack - there are basically 3 - Frenzy (hardest to defend against), single attack (often precedes a frenzy) and the threatening point or wave.*



Uh.... okay.... besides this being incorrect, and your take on things showing that you're a little lacking in a range of what you're trying to talk about, I don't quite see what this has to do with anything... let alone the quote of mine you were using, unless you're trying to say that you do train to handle what is shown in the clip (yeah... still got major doubts on that)?



RTKDCMB said:


> *Had to google the OODA loop that's just part of the natural thinking process that is improved by training. By your reasoning side steps are completely useless which is simply not true.*


First off, the OODA loop is a way of describing a cognitive process, and while training can be used to improve it, realistically, it's more something that can be understood, and applied agaisnt an opponent. And no, I'm not saying that side-steps are useless... I'm saying you were wrong when you said it took less time than the steps forward (from the attacker).



RTKDCMB said:


> *Unless you do it wrong, like do it too far forward, cover just your hand or it slips from your grip before it wraps in which case you just wasted valuable time. It's a good tactic but it can also reduce the dexterity in that hand.*


Wow. "Do it wrong"? It's a single flick of the wrist, not a precise action (hence it being more high-return, as well as faster than the throwing of the jacket...). And the only real point I was making was that it was far better than the tactic you were suggesting, not that it was flawless or guaranteed... but I gotta say, the issues you're finding aren't really that much of an issue, when it comes down to it... 



RTKDCMB said:


> *That would have to be just about the slowest way to throw a jacket and for crying out loud throwing the jacket is not for impact (I obviously don't expect it to knock him out or injure him).*


No, it'd be the only way to get any real usage out of throwing one... without the pull back, you just have a fluttering, slow moving, limp piece of clothing that might not even make it to the attackers face. Again, physics here.



RTKDCMB said:


> *Using the jacket as a barrier to the knife didn't work to well for the defender in the video.*



Where did you see him try to use it as such?!?! Again, the clip is about the style of attack, not the "defence", which was non-existent, other than an attempt to move back away from the knifeman...



RTKDCMB said:


> *Side stepping is quite a natural reaction for me I have avoided many impacts doing it. People are hard wired, yes, but they also have concious thought, reflexes, intelengence and skills that evolve with training that can override the hard wiring. A non-martial arts example - you see something falling you instinctivley try to catch it, unless it happens to be hot. A friend of mine was with me at TAFE and she droped a clay pot out of the tongs she was pulling it out of a furnace set at 600 degrees and went to catch it in her hand (hard wired response) I grabbed her arm and stopped her in time (concious thought) and reflexes).*


And here we have a complete lack of understanding of violence and adrenaline... as well as hardwired responces.



RTKDCMB said:


> *I will try to put this in simple terms anyone can understand - It is completely impossible for someone to travel forward and trip and fall on someone standing next to him at 90 degrees from his direction of travel. When he falls the knife would be nowhere near me, especially considering I will be on the opposite side of his knife holding hand.*


Yeah.... you'd be grabbed, by the same reflex that caused your friend to try to catch the clay pot. And they'd still be holding a knife, as well as now holding you. Bad place to be. Ends in blood. Lots of it. Not theirs.



RTKDCMB said:


> *Don't seem to remember ever mentioning him falling on his knife or slashing or stabbing himself. His knife hand can reach out all it wants, I will be on the other side, in any case the natural reaction of someone falling forward is to reach out in front or underneath them not to the side.*



Yeah, went back and re-read your post. I misread you saying they would stab/slash across themselves (at you, presumably) as being that they would stab/slash across their own body (cutting themselves, by landing on their knife as a result of your trip).



RTKDCMB said:


> *What ever you say.*



Yep.



RTKDCMB said:


> *I also use those methods, if you are going to block the knifeman's arm make it hurt and make the following strike(s) hurt even more.*



Control is far more important... in fact, thinking about blocking painfully to the arm is not what I would suggest...



RTKDCMB said:


> *It does not matter so much if his elbow and shoulder can move, its my two arms versus his one so unless he has twice my strength or is hopped up on drugs or I am just trying to hold him there for more than 2 seconds that knife is not going anywhere near anything vital.*


Yeah... again, physics. Or, more realistically, biomechanics. The most likely result (in reality) is that you get your hands cut up as they pull their knife arm back. They don't need to be on drugs, or even necessarily any stronger than you, as you're not going two hands against one, you're going two hands against an entire body with freedom of movement. 



RTKDCMB said:


> *I am referring to beginners mainly doing the technique for the first time.*



Yeah... kinda missed the point there....



RTKDCMB said:


> That's what is commonly referred to as a joke - Google Mr Squiggle.



Please, son. I'm Australian too, and hardly need to be informed of our classic TV shows... you might also note I didn't ask who he was, but pointed out that such a flippant responce showed a huge lack of understanding of the value of the exercise you were suggested.


----------



## RTKDCMB

MJS said:


> I know you're directing this at Chris, but I thought I'd comment as well.
> I had mentioned the Tueller Drill.  I'm not saying sidestepping is useless, however, it may not be the best thing to do, situation depending.
> 
> *Everything is dependent on the situation. The way I explain to students who, in free sparring, do not side step is that if a car war barreling towards (like the guy in the video) you would you try to out run it or get out of its way.
> *
> 
> Again, whats the big thing with the jacket?  I mean really...unless you're already holding it, I'd rather keep it on and worry about saving my ***, rather than taking the jacket off, in hopes to wrap it around my hand or throw it.
> 
> *I too would rather keep it on it was a debate on what to do with it if since it was already off as what the guy in the video did didn't help him (it was like he thought he was a Matador).*
> Again, I'll refer back to the Tueller Drill.  Seems like those guys didn't have much luck sidestepping...and they were 21ft apart.
> 
> *You will have to be more specific with the video you are referring to.
> *Of course, we shouldn't forget that environment dictates what we can/can't do.  Playing devils advocate for a moment...what if you were unable to do what you describe?
> 
> *True*,* then you would have to do something else you just can't rely on one tactic to work in all situations you have to be fluid and adapt.*
> Of course, lets not forget that he (the bad guy) has another hand, that he'll most likely be using to strike.  I've got no issues with the 2 hand grip, but the position of your own body while doing it, is also important.



*Some good points there*


----------



## RTKDCMB

Chris Parker said:


> First off, the OODA loop is a way of describing a cognitive process, and while training can be used to improve it, realistically, it's more something that can be understood, and applied agaisnt an opponent. And no, I'm not saying that side-steps are useless... I'm saying you were wrong when you said it took less time than the steps forward (from the attacker).



Since there were no side steps in the video so it's difficult to judge which is faster and it depends upon the reflexes, physical condition and mental state of both people. I can certainly move quicker one step to the side than I can several steps backwards to avoid the guy.



Chris Parker said:


> Wow. "Do it wrong"? It's a single flick of the wrist, not a precise action (hence it being more high-return, as well as faster than the throwing of the jacket...). And the only real point I was making was that it was far better than the tactic you were suggesting, not that it was flawless or guaranteed... but I gotta say, the issues you're finding aren't really that much of an issue, when it comes down to it...
> 
> 
> No, it'd be the only way to get any real usage out of throwing one... without the pull back, you just have a fluttering, slow moving, limp piece of clothing that might not even make it to the attackers face. Again, physics here.



Last thing I am saying about the jacket -  if you grab it in the middle of the collar and flick the wrist (kinetics does the rest) and it takes about half a second to get up to face height and only flutters on the way down, even a light shirt does this. Never argue physics with a physicist. 



Chris Parker said:


> Where did you see him try to use it as such?!?! Again, the clip is about the style of attack, not the "defence", which was non-existent, other than an attempt to move back away from the knifeman...



He was holding it out in front of him like a Matador



Chris Parker said:


> Yeah.... you'd be grabbed, by the same reflex that caused your friend to try to catch the clay pot. And they'd still be holding a knife, as well as now holding you. Bad place to be. Ends in blood. Lots of it. Not theirs.



You are either completely ignoring the mechanics of the situation or misunderstanding the relative locations of the positions of both the attacker and defender I am suggesting. Here is a simple test - run full speed at someone, have them step out of the way, with their body 2 feet away from you at 90 degrees from your direction of travel, and try to grab them anywhere (probably 1/5 of a second later you will be behind him). Next do it while they are kicking your legs out from under you. If you can do that effectively then post it as a video and I will proclaim you king of the universe.




Chris Parker said:


> Control is far more important... in fact, thinking about blocking painfully to the arm is not what I would suggest...



You can't control anything if you can not avoid the initial attack by blocking or grabbing the arm  ut I see your point.



Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... again, physics. Or, more realistically, biomechanics. The most likely result (in reality) is that you get your hands cut up as they pull their knife arm back. They don't need to be on drugs, or even necessarily any stronger than you, as you're not going two hands against one, you're going two hands against an entire body with freedom of movement.



I will try to find a video of the technique (the one I mentioned is the exact one *Langenschwert *suggested to which you said "ahh that's much better") it is similar to the one you suggested earlier. Grabbing the wrist with both hands has a much greater chance of success in stopping the knife going in than grabbing with one hand on the wrist and the other further up his arm which puts you closer to the knife. After the initial attack is stopped and you have a double handed grip on his wrist then you can take one hand and place it further up the arm if you want. However in the situation in the video you would still get run through with the knife, it would be more useful if they were just standing in front of you and lunged instead of in a full sprint.





Chris Parker said:


> Please, son. I'm Australian too, and hardly need to be informed of our classic TV shows... you might also note I didn't ask who he was, but pointed out that such a flippant responce showed a huge lack of understanding of the value of the exercise you were suggested.



1) I am not your son 2), having a sense of humor does not mean you do not see the value in the exercise and 3) covering a rubber training knife with a dye on the simulated cutting surfaces would give you a more accurate measure of if you would be cut by the knife than a marker, single edged knives do not cut on all surfaces and angles.


----------



## MJS

> *Everything is dependent on the situation. The way I explain to students who, in free sparring, do not side step is that if a car war barreling towards (like the guy in the video) you would you try to out run it or get out of its way.*


*



*I understand the sidestepping that you're talking about.  My point was simply that if we look at the Tueller Drill we'll see that sidestepping isn't always 100%.





> *You will have to be more specific with the video you are referring to.*


*


*See above for the Tueller Drill.  As for the videos...well, Karl Tanswell for example.  

[yt]-_ZO17yWi7I[/yt]

Since we were talking about the 2 hand grip, I thought it'd be important to note how they're holding in the clip.  IMO, the method they're using is pretty secure, allows for the defender to throw counter strikes, and move the badguy in a fashion to limit what they can/can't do.



> *True*,* then you would have to do something else you just can't rely on one tactic to work in all situations you have to be fluid and adapt.*


*

*So, if we're in agreement with that, why then, do you keep talking about sidestepping, as if that is "the best" solution?

*



			Some good points there
		
Click to expand...


*IMHO, this is something that is often neglected with alot of knife defense.  People tend to focus on the weapon hand only.  One of the things that you'll see alot of, in the FMAs, is the use of the 2nd hand.  This is one of the many reasons, why I enjoy my FMA training.  It's opened my eyes to alot that was missing in the knife defense that I see in the other arts that I do.


----------



## RTKDCMB

MJS said:


> [/B]I understand the sidestepping that you're talking about.  My point was simply that if we look at the Tueller Drill we'll see that sidestepping isn't always 100%.



Nothing ever is.



MJS said:


> [/B] Since we were talking about the 2 hand grip, I thought it'd be important to note how they're holding in the clip.  IMO, the method they're using is pretty secure, allows for the defender to throw counter strikes, and move the badguy in a fashion to limit what they can/can't do.



Good video but if you notice at no stage is anyone running at the defender in a full sprint so getting to those positions, or the double handed grip for that matter, during the first initial attack when he is closing the distance could be problematic. Once he stays within stabbing range then these techniques would become more useful.If the side step and trip/turning kick works then the attacker will be flat on his face but if it doesn't then he will have to turn around and face you and you can do something else, it is only to counter the initial charge. I like the name of the program.





MJS said:


> [/B] So, if we're in agreement with that, why then, do you keep talking about sidestepping, as if that is "the best" solution?



I am not saying it is the best or only solution just defending it from people who think it is no solution at all.



MJS said:


> [/B]IMHO, this is something that is often neglected with alot of knife defense.  People tend to focus on the weapon hand only.  One of the things that you'll see alot of, in the FMAs, is the use of the 2nd hand.  This is one of the many reasons, why I enjoy my FMA training.  It's opened my eyes to alot that was missing in the knife defense that I see in the other arts that I do.



I agree it is often neglected, that is why in my school we also practice free sparring with the knife where the knife holder is free to use their other hand and both of their feet. We also use it to demonstrate that if you have to defend against a knife then you should expect to get cut. We are also mindful when performing any kind of standing grappling of putting the attacker in a position where he is unlikely to be able to strike you with his other hand.


----------



## MJS

RTKDCMB said:


> Nothing ever is.



Yet you seem to thrive on that constantly, in many of your replies.





> Good video but if you notice at no stage is anyone running at the defender in a full sprint so getting to those positions, or the double handed grip for that matter, during the first initial attack when he is closing the distance could be problematic. Once he stays within stabbing range then these techniques would become more useful.If the side step and trip/turning kick works then the attacker will be flat on his face but if it doesn't then he will have to turn around and face you and you can do something else, it is only to counter the initial charge. I like the name of the program.



Heres another with a bit more action.

[yt]kiNjFlfIQXI[/yt]







> I am not saying it is the best or only solution just defending it from people who think it is no solution at all.



Yet as I said above in this post, that you seem to talk about it...ALOT.  You also seem to avoid the link I posted to the Tueller Drill, which, IMO, pretty much shuts down the idea that the sidestep will work.  If these guys are having difficulty at 21ft, well, in the clip in the OP of this thread, those guys are much closer.  I'm sorry, but sidestepping in that case, will not work.  





> I agree it is often neglected, that is why in my school we also practice free sparring with the knife where the knife holder is free to use their other hand and both of their feet. We also use it to demonstrate that if you have to defend against a knife then you should expect to get cut. We are also mindful when performing any kind of standing grappling of putting the attacker in a position where he is unlikely to be able to strike you with his other hand.



Good.


----------



## RTKDCMB

MJS said:


> Yet as I said above in this post, that you seem to talk about it...ALOT.  You also seem to avoid the link I posted to the Tueller Drill, which, IMO, pretty much shuts down the idea that the sidestep will work.  If these guys are having difficulty at 21ft, well, in the clip in the OP of this thread, those guys are much closer.  I'm sorry, but sidestepping in that case, will not work.



The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.


----------



## mook jong man

RTKDCMB said:


> The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.



Why do you have to use lateral side stepping? , which leaves you out of position in case something goes wrong , with the attacker now right at the side of you.
Why don't you try stepping diagonally forward , orientating your body to a 45 degree angle as you step , it gets you out of the path of the weapon and still leaves you with both your hands equal distance to the attacker to defend yourself.


----------



## MJS

RTKDCMB said:


> The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.



Are you really that clueless?  I take it by your resonse, that you have no clue as to what this drill is, or what its purpose is.  I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do your research for you.  If you want to know about it, figure it out for yourself.  You're missing the point.  If you have someone with a gun, and someone with a knife, and they're 21ft apart, and the guy with the knife is able to reach the guy with the gun, in 21ft,, then certainly if you put the people closer, even if the defender had no gun, the point I'm making, is that the guy with the knife will close much faster.  No time for sidestepping.  As I said, if you were paying attention, I'm not against it, but I am not getting as excited over it, as you seem to be.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh dear lord...



RTKDCMB said:


> *Everything is dependent on the situation. The way I explain to students who, in free sparring, do not side step is that if a car war barreling towards (like the guy in the video) you would you try to out run it or get out of its way.*


And how much relation do you think sparring has to what we're discussing here? If you think it actually has any, I suggest reading the current thread on the Fight/Flight response (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/108380-The-fight-response)...



RTKDCMB said:


> *I **too**would rather keep it on it was a debate on what to do with it if since it was already off as what the guy in the video did didn't help him (it was like he thought he was a Matador).*


No, actually it wasn't. There was a suggestion that throwing it at the attacker was a good idea, and that was challenged... so far, nothing has convinced me that your plan has any merit beyond postponing the stabbing for half a second or so.



RTKDCMB said:


> *You will have to be more specific with the video you are referring to.*


MJS wasn't referring to a video of the Tueller Drill. He was referring to the drill itself. And, bluntly, if you want to have any credibility in teaching knife defence, you really should know what the drill is... and what it shows.



RTKDCMB said:


> *True, then you would have to do something else you just can't rely on one tactic to work in all situations you have to be fluid and adapt.*



So... did you actually have an answer?



RTKDCMB said:


> Some good points there



You seem to have missed them.



RTKDCMB said:


> Since there were no side steps in the video so it's difficult to judge which is faster and it depends upon the reflexes, physical condition and mental state of both people. I can certainly move quicker one step to the side than I can several steps backwards to avoid the guy.



Uh... no. It's actually quite obvious to those who know what the realities of the situations described are. And, more to the point, steps backwards are going to be what you take, regardless of what you can do faster.



RTKDCMB said:


> Last thing I am saying about the jacket -  if you grab it in the middle of the collar and flick the wrist (kinetics does the rest) and it takes about half a second to get up to face height and only flutters on the way down, even a light shirt does this. Never argue physics with a physicist.



Physicist? Really? Hmm... can you explain why you're ignoring inertia, then? The force required to throw a heavier jacket? The lack of impetus for a lighter one? Seriously, the whole "throw the jacket in their face" is badly flawed from the outset, and physics is against you.



RTKDCMB said:


> He was holding it out in front of him like a Matador



But wasn't doing anything to use it as a barrier (other than a psychological one)... so.... your point?



RTKDCMB said:


> You are either completely ignoring the mechanics of the situation or misunderstanding the relative locations of the positions of both the attacker and defender I am suggesting. Here is a simple test - run full speed at someone, have them step out of the way, with their body 2 feet away from you at 90 degrees from your direction of travel, and try to grab them anywhere (probably 1/5 of a second later you will be behind him). Next do it while they are kicking your legs out from under you. If you can do that effectively then post it as a video and I will proclaim you king of the universe.



Tell you what, you try a slightly different one. Get someone to rush you, trying to gut you with a knife... see which way you step. Oh, and your technique is a purely theoretical one... I can see how you came up with it, and it "works" logically... but is fatally flawed in practice. These things can't really be "thought out"... which is the real issue here.



RTKDCMB said:


> You can't control anything if you can not avoid the initial attack by blocking or grabbing the arm  ut I see your point.



I don't think you did, really.



RTKDCMB said:


> I will try to find a video of the technique (the one I mentioned is the exact one *Langenschwert *suggested to which you said "ahh that's much better") it is similar to the one you suggested earlier. Grabbing the wrist with both hands has a much greater chance of success in stopping the knife going in than grabbing with one hand on the wrist and the other further up his arm which puts you closer to the knife. After the initial attack is stopped and you have a double handed grip on his wrist then you can take one hand and place it further up the arm if you want. However in the situation in the video you would still get run through with the knife, it would be more useful if they were just standing in front of you and lunged instead of in a full sprint.



I've been down this path before, with Ras... that was a headache and a half. But, to deal with it briefly, there is a large difference between a high/low control, and a two-hands-on-the-wrist control, and Langenschwert suggested neither. All he said was "control". Two-hands-on-the-wrist is a desperation grab, and needs to transition almost immediately. Otherwise, you lose control real quick, and bleed soon after.



RTKDCMB said:


> 1) I am not your son 2), having a sense of humor does not mean you do not see the value in the exercise and 3) covering a rubber training knife with a dye on the simulated cutting surfaces would give you a more accurate measure of if you would be cut by the knife than a marker, single edged knives do not cut on all surfaces and angles.



Your lack of awareness of the Tueller Drill, your laughing off a standard, good practice, and so on, gives the impression that you genuinely didn't see the value. There was no indication of a sense of humour, just a lack of understanding. Oh, and no, that is actually a less accurate measure, due to the variables of where the blade can contact. If you use a marker, then you can clearly see where the tip (the most effective part of the blade) contacts, and how, which is far more accurate.



RTKDCMB said:


> Nothing ever is.



I'll embelish on MJS's behalf here... side-stepping is dangerous to the point of deadly without control. And you have not shown any real comprehension of the realities of the speed, distance, adrenaline effects, and so on, which is the real point.



RTKDCMB said:


> Good video but if you notice at no stage is anyone running at the defender in a full sprint so getting to those positions, or the double handed grip for that matter, during the first initial attack when he is closing the distance could be problematic. Once he stays within stabbing range then these techniques would become more useful.If the side step and trip/turning kick works then the attacker will be flat on his face but if it doesn't then he will have to turn around and face you and you can do something else, it is only to counter the initial charge. I like the name of the program.



Oh, dear lord.... I really hope you're not teaching knife defence....



RTKDCMB said:


> I am not saying it is the best or only solution just defending it from people who think it is no solution at all.



Hmm, here's a thought... have you taken on board the critiques offered? Or are you just defending it because it's something you came up with for the thread, and don't want to be seen as not knowing what you're talking about?



RTKDCMB said:


> I agree it is often neglected, that is why in my school we also practice free sparring with the knife where the knife holder is free to use their other hand and both of their feet. We also use it to demonstrate that if you have to defend against a knife then you should expect to get cut. We are also mindful when performing any kind of standing grappling of putting the attacker in a position where he is unlikely to be able to strike you with his other hand.



Hmm.



RTKDCMB said:


> The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.



Oh dear lord....


----------



## RTKDCMB

Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear lord...
> 
> And how much relation do you think sparring has to what we're discussing here? If you think it actually has any, I suggest reading the current thread on the Fight/Flight response (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/108380-The-fight-response)...
> 
> 
> No, actually it wasn't. There was a suggestion that throwing it at the attacker was a good idea, and that was challenged... so far, nothing has convinced me that your plan has any merit beyond postponing the stabbing for half a second or so.
> 
> 
> MJS wasn't referring to a video of the Tueller Drill. He was referring to the drill itself. And, bluntly, if you want to have any credibility in teaching knife defence, you really should know what the drill is... and what it shows.
> 
> 
> 
> So... did you actually have an answer?
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have missed them.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh... no. It's actually quite obvious to those who know what the realities of the situations described are. And, more to the point, steps backwards are going to be what you take, regardless of what you can do faster.
> 
> 
> 
> Physicist? Really? Hmm... can you explain why you're ignoring inertia, then? The force required to throw a heavier jacket? The lack of impetus for a lighter one? Seriously, the whole "throw the jacket in their face" is badly flawed from the outset, and physics is against you.
> 
> 
> 
> But wasn't doing anything to use it as a barrier (other than a psychological one)... so.... your point?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what, you try a slightly different one. Get someone to rush you, trying to gut you with a knife... see which way you step. Oh, and your technique is a purely theoretical one... I can see how you came up with it, and it "works" logically... but is fatally flawed in practice. These things can't really be "thought out"... which is the real issue here.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you did, really.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been down this path before, with Ras... that was a headache and a half. But, to deal with it briefly, there is a large difference between a high/low control, and a two-hands-on-the-wrist control, and Langenschwert suggested neither. All he said was "control". Two-hands-on-the-wrist is a desperation grab, and needs to transition almost immediately. Otherwise, you lose control real quick, and bleed soon after.
> 
> 
> 
> Your lack of awareness of the Tueller Drill, your laughing off a standard, good practice, and so on, gives the impression that you genuinely didn't see the value. There was no indication of a sense of humour, just a lack of understanding. Oh, and no, that is actually a less accurate measure, due to the variables of where the blade can contact. If you use a marker, then you can clearly see where the tip (the most effective part of the blade) contacts, and how, which is far more accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll embelish on MJS's behalf here... side-stepping is dangerous to the point of deadly without control. And you have not shown any real comprehension of the realities of the speed, distance, adrenaline effects, and so on, which is the real point.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, dear lord.... I really hope you're not teaching knife defence....
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, here's a thought... have you taken on board the critiques offered? Or are you just defending it because it's something you came up with for the thread, and don't want to be seen as not knowing what you're talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear lord....



You criticize others well but I am yet to hear you answer the original question with anything specific. I guess if you were up against a wall and could not step back along the 'primal line' you would be gutted since side stepping is such an impossible feat to you.


----------



## Chris Parker

RTKDCMB said:


> You criticize others well but I am yet to hear you answer the original question with anything specific. I guess if you were up against a wall and could not step back along the 'primal line' you would be gutted since side stepping is such an impossible feat to you.



From this thread:



Chris Parker said:


> Mostly the same stuff we do in my classes, actually. Minimize your potential for injury firstly by being aware of potential attackers, then by creating a barrier between your body and the attacking weapon, even if that is just your own arms. As soon as possible, take control of the weapon arm, and from there you can start to apply your techniques (whether that was overwhelming strikes for those with a striking background, or locking/breaking for those with more of a grappling background, and so on). The big thing he emphasized, though, was very much just being able to survive the initial assault, both by recognizing that the attacker won't stop for you to apply whatever you want, and by understanding the adrenaline you're going to experience, and how to deal with that. I don't think he wanted to give "answers", as much as he wanted to provide the skills that would allow the answers provided by the participants own martial training to have a chance.



Other threads:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/105226-Is-Knife-defence-even-worth-teaching (my response in post 4).

Some arguments:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/97607-Kenpo-Knife-Defense-by-Juan-José-negreira

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/97177-Self-defense-against-a-knife

Specifics can't ever be truly specific in this situation, which is another reason your description failed, by the way.


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## Balrog

Cyriacus said:


> Im aware of this - But hurting His eye doesnt paralyse His arm.



In a way, it will.  It is a massive burst of pain, which will change the attacker's focus from his weapon to how badly his eye hurts.


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## Argus

(Me) having no actual experience or knowledge on the subject, we did play around with this in class once.

One of my "oh sh**" reactions, which I wouldn't suggest doing, actually worked when I wound up slapping the inside of the attackers arm and he dropped the knife. I suppose I should have gotten punched in the face with his free hand for the effort. Or cut on the inside of the arm if I'd missed.

A few times I was able to very quickly clear and check/pin the knife arm and push the opponent away. 

But of course, this was all just playing with training partners who weren't fully intent on killing you. And even then, everyone in the room was "cut."

In reality, I'd imagine that, next to running away, grabbing the nearest object would be your best bet - if you're lucky enough to see it coming at all. In the worst case scenario that you're stabbed before you even know what's happening (or that you're getting stabbed), I'd hope I'd at least be instinctually hitting back in some way.

At least, that's my uneducated, "common-sense" perception. I'm curious if it sounds reasonable to someone more knowledgeable on the topic.


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## Cyriacus

Balrog said:


> In a way, it will.  It is a massive burst of pain, which will change the attacker's focus from his weapon to how badly his eye hurts.



I dunno - Ive been poked in the eye, it doesnt really hurt. Its just uncomfortable. You know when you get something in your eye, and you start rubbing it? Have you ever considered that that isnt even vaguely painful?

Hence my conclusion youd have to either beat the blink reflex and maintain pressure, or wedge your chosen appendage in. Both of which take time in which you get stabby stabby. Theres a whole thread on this we can dig up if youd like


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## RTKDCMB

bluewaveschool said:


> I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull.  That is much less complicated.



It would be very difficult to get your thumb in his eye whilst he is rushing forward like that, it would be better to get put of his line of attack and strike instead.


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## RTKDCMB

Cyriacus said:


> I dunno - Ive been poked in the eye, it doesnt really hurt. Its just uncomfortable. You know when you get something in your eye, and you start rubbing it? Have you ever considered that that isnt even vaguely painful?



A penetrating eye injury would be incredibly painful if your eyeball is punctured or compressed so much it bursts.


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## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> A penetrating eye injury would be incredibly painful if your eyeball is punctured or compressed so much it bursts.



Do you have any idea how difficult that would be? Displacement is far more likely.


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## RTKDCMB

Cyriacus said:


> Do you have any idea how difficult that would be? Displacement is far more likely.


  And probably still more painful than just a poke in the eye..


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## Cyriacus

RTKDCMB said:


> And probably still more painful than just a poke in the eye..



And like i just finished saying, itd still take more time than id like to stand around getting murdered.


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## Argus

Cyriacus said:


> And like i just finished saying, itd still take more time than id like to stand around getting murdered.



Psst, I think you're preaching to the choir. RTKDCMB was just agreeing on that point a few posts ago...


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## scottcatchot

Alot of suggestions and ideas on dealing with the scenario in the op. If I was in that situation my main focus would be on tAking the guy out, making him on functional over blocking he knife. I would implement a down block but mainly I would step through him with my fore arm aimed at his upper chest to slide into his throat, stepping through im so his incoming momentum would add to my weight pushing through his throat with my whole body, not a jab, 
taking him to the ground, stomping his throat again and then getting out of there.


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## Cyriacus

Argus said:


> Psst, I think you're preaching to the choir. RTKDCMB was just agreeing on that point a few posts ago...



Ah, right. Goes to show how much i was paying attention


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