# My analysis about Grandmaster situation



## webpage20022003 (May 24, 2003)

I absolutely understand why certain people want to become Grandmasters in this world.  If you are a grandmaster, please do not feel bad about my analysis.

I also do not try to imply anything. It is just my point of view. Here it goes

  There are 2 main reasons or "motivation"

1-SUPREMECY AUTHORITY

some people are very happy when you call them "MASTER" or "GRANDMASTER" because they feel that they are above everybody and have authority over you.

Some folks say that you respect them by telling them MASTER or GRANDMASTER. Come on NOW??? IT IS NOT truth

I'm sure most of you here RESPECT your parents but you DON'T CALL THEM MASTER OR Grandmaster, do you ?

calling MASTER is OK but calling GRANDMASTER is not OK why?

if you look at "MASTER", you see "Mr."....see my point ????
if you look at "GRANDMASTER", you don't see anything. You only see GRANDMASTER

I personally feel it is WRONG to ask somebody to tell you MASTER or GRANDMASTER. Why?

a- We live in an equal society and that means we don't own anybody. If you look back to the history, a slave calls MASTER. I'm not a slave, why do i have to call them MASTER or Grandmaster?

Professor or instructor is good enough. No need to go further than this

b- I may not be the same age as you BUT it is not my FAULT.

c-About experiences??? so you have 10,20,30 years in martial art??? i'm impressed.  

Be honest NOW, your 10,20,30,40,100 years of experiences only demonstrate in the street less than 2 minutes. Otherwise, you are GONE.

2-MONEY

whenever you go to a seminar or to martial art event, you see any First or second degree black invited to show you MOVE ????

you only see MASTER and Grandmaster and i'm sure that it costs more to bring these folks to demonstrate. Sure, one may argue that there is nothing FREE or you have to compensate  for their time.

That's a good point. I have seen people have to pay for these "SPECIAL" folks a lot of MONEY.  

it doesn't matter where you look at it. There are many FEES involve. Some of them are NONE refundable and NOT cheap

1-FEES to bring THEM out of the house

2-FEES for HOTEL, TRANSPORTATION, FOOD. I'm sure you don't want to put your MASTER or GRANDMASTER into a cheap MOTEL, do you?

you certainly don't want to tell these folks to take BUS to go to your place from airport.

how about inviting these folks to MCDonal for a happy meal ???? You are a nice person, you don't want to do above things

YOu see BIG fees for them doing NOTHING???

3- FEES for demonstration and EXPERIENCE at your places.

4-FEES for association

5-FEES for testing and getting certificates.

I'm sure you will cover all these fees before bring them to your place.

no offense anybody. It is just my point. Now, i have to get back to my computer thesis. 

Have a great weekend, everybody


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## KenpoDragon (May 24, 2003)

I thought you said you only had 2 main reasons, it looked a lot more like 20 main reasons to me. I agree with you on some of your points, but the whole Master and slave thing was stretching it way too far. Master usually means Master of the Art, not Master over you. I don't really believe in the whole Master thing either but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Titles now a days are a bit extreme, everyone is trying to have a better title than the next guy. As far as I'm concerned I just go by Sensei, which translates to teacher. After all that is what a Grandmaster or Master really does anyways, teaches, right??? Once again just my opinion.

:asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *I thought you said you only had 2 main reasons, it looked a lot more like 20 main reasons to me. I agree with you on some of your points, but the whole Master and slave thing was stretching it way too far. Master usually means Master of the Art, not Master over you. I don't really believe in the whole Master thing either but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Titles now a days are a bit extreme, everyone is trying to have a better title than the next guy. As far as I'm concerned I just go by Sensei, which translates to teacher. After all that is what a Grandmaster or Master really does anyways, teaches, right??? Once again just my opinion.
> 
> :asian: *



It never ceases to amaze me the amount of RESPECT that's shown in the martial arts with all the name calling, sirs, master, sensei, etc.      I have a name, it's Clyde, I prefer to be associated with that name.    I have a title for the  belt around my waist, Professor, but that's not who  I am, it's what I am, therein lies the seperation.       I guess some in other styles would consider a 6th a Master ranking, I don't.     It hasn't changed my lifestyle or the way I treat people, and it hasn't made my Kenpo any better by having that rank.      I live through Kenpo, it's what and who I am, not the rank.   Hmm, this is California, I should legally add that to my name LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## roryneil (May 24, 2003)

We also show respect by saying "Sir" or "Ma'am", or Mr. X or Mrs. X. But that is shown from black to beginner as much as the other way around.


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## Jill666 (May 24, 2003)

The more I see the more I am struck by the fact that the "real deal" masters embody the humility we all profess to admire, while the pretenders to the throne love those fancy-*** titles.

I'm noticing that it takes a while to even know that this person who is able to express clearly and in detail just the info I needed is a master of professor by title- because they don't hit me over the head with it. As opposed to some who jump in saying "I'm a master of this" or "gajillianth dan in that". 

If you wonder whether I mean you, yes I do.


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## Ender (May 24, 2003)

funny story:

We had this one guy come in and proclaim himself to be a "Grand Master". He claimed he was trained by G. Washington . well, my teacher said "I'm G. Washington, and I have never seen you in my life!", and my teacher started laughing. The guy turned around and walked out the door. we were cracking up for 10 minutes after that.*L


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *It never ceases to amaze me the amount of RESPECT that's shown in the martial arts with all the name calling, sirs, master, sensei, etc.      I have a name, it's Clyde, I prefer to be associated with that name.    I have a title for the  belt around my waist, Professor, but that's not who  I am, it's what I am, therein lies the seperation.       I guess some in other styles would consider a 6th a Master ranking, I don't.     It hasn't changed my lifestyle or the way I treat people, and it hasn't made my Kenpo any better by having that rank.      I live through Kenpo, it's what and who I am, not the rank.   Hmm, this is California, I should legally add that to my name LOL.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...


 Well Clyde, I'm not sure if your post was directed at me, but it seems like it was since you quoted me. I have a name to it's Mark, but in the dojo/ school there must be a level of respect for your instructor/ sensei/ teacher/ master/ grandmaster/ sifu/ professor/ shihan or whatever else you might call the person who is teaching you the art. If I went by my first name there wouldn't be much respect there, my students would see me more on a friendly basis then anything. I'm not trying to be there friends, I'm trying to help them learn self-defense. I'm their teacher first, their friend second. Out of ALL my instructors in the past, I respected my old Sensei the most. Was it do to the "title" or the amount of respect that he demanded from his students. Honestly I think it was a little of both. If your teaching a small group of people, or if your teaching from out of your home, then it's o.k to go by first name basis. But if your teaching an entire classroom full of people and they are all calling you by your first name, it doesn't seem very respectful. Sometimes even though I hate to say it, the "title" gives the person the respect that they deserve. Think about it if you met for the first time Mr. Ed Parker or Senior Grand Master Ed Parker, who would you respect more????  The name Ed doesn't demand respect, but Senior Grand Master does. If you choose to go by Clyde when you teach that's cool, but most of us teachers choose some type of title, even if it's just Mr. or Mrs.  Just my opinion though.

:asian: :asian: :asian:


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## Kirk (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Well Clyde, I'm not sure if your post was directed at me, but it seems like it was since you quoted me. I have a name to it's Mark, but in the dojo/ school there must be a level of respect for your instructor/ sensei/ teacher/ master/ grandmaster/ sifu/ professor/ shihan or whatever else you might call the person who is teaching you the art. If I went by my first name there wouldn't be much respect there, my students would see me more on a friendly basis then anything. I'm not trying to be there friends, I'm trying to help them learn self-defense. I'm their teacher first, their friend second. Out of ALL my instructors in the past, I respected my old Sensei the most. Was it do to the "title" or the amount of respect that he demanded from his students. Honestly I think it was a little of both. If your teaching a small group of people, or if your teaching from out of your home, then it's o.k to go by first name basis. But if your teaching an entire classroom full of people and they are all calling you by your first name, it doesn't seem very respectful. Sometimes even though I hate to say it, the "title" gives the person the respect that they deserve. Think about it if you met for the first time Mr. Ed Parker or Senior Grand Master Ed Parker, who would you respect more????  The name Ed doesn't demand respect, but Senior Grand Master does. If you choose to go by Clyde when you teach that's cool, but most of us teachers choose some type of title, even if it's just Mr. or Mrs.  Just my opinion though.
> 
> *



Speaking only for myself I show respect that the one teaching
me asks for (even though some demand it).  Although I've never
been on the mat with Clyde, he's offered up lots of information
to me, via emails and phone calls (loong phone calls) at no 
charge.  He's *earned* my respect without demanding it, and
for that, in my book, he's Clyde.  Mr Billings and Uncle Dan have
the names they prefer, and have earned my respect as well ...
But I'll tell ya ... if any of them came of demanding that I call them
Professor, Sifu, Sigung, or whatever ... I probably would have
still held them in the LARGE amount of respect that I do ... it sure
would have taken longer for them to have earned it.

I've only been in kenpo a little over a year and a half.  But if Mr
Parker wanted to be called Mr ... then Mr it is until I'm asked or
told otherwise.  But IMO .. if Mr was good enough for Mr Parker,
then it's good enough for all other instructors.  My opinion might
change on this later, as I get more experienced, or meet others
outside my own realm here .. but that's how it stands right now.
:asian:


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## webpage20022003 (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *   I have a name, it's Clyde, I prefer to be associated with that name.   I have a title for the  belt around my waist, Professor,
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



my topic is very *hot*. I am even amazed when 1 "professor" respond to my comment. Have to tell you this. So far , you are the only 1 who respond to my *analysis* .

I'm impressed. I'm looking to seeing more response from other "professor","grandmaster","master",or high ranking official comment to my *topic"

Keep your idea flowing.


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Speaking only for myself I show respect that the one teaching
> me asks for (even though some demand it).*


* The only people that I demand respect from are MY students. I don't go up to other instructors and say I am Sensei this or Master that. If I'm not in class I'm Mark, but if I am in class I am Sensei, and if you call me by my first name you owe me push-ups!!!! hahaahha!!! 






			Although I've never
been on the mat with Clyde, he's offered up lots of information
to me, via emails and phone calls (loong phone calls) at no 
charge.  He's earned my respect without demanding it, and
for that, in my book, he's Clyde.  Mr Billings and Uncle Dan have
the names they prefer, and have earned my respect as well ...
But I'll tell ya ... if any of them came of demanding that I call them
Professor, Sifu, Sigung, or whatever ... I probably would have
still held them in the LARGE amount of respect that I do ... it sure
would have taken longer for them to have earned it.
		
Click to expand...

 If you are going to someone for training then you should show some respect for that person. After all they could just say no, I don't want to teach you, right??? It is an honor, and a privilege. It is not something that should be taken lightly.




			I've only been in kenpo a little over a year and a half.  But if Mr
Parker wanted to be called Mr ... then Mr it is until I'm asked or
told otherwise.  But IMO .. if Mr was good enough for Mr Parker,
then it's good enough for all other instructors.  My opinion might
change on this later, as I get more experienced, or meet others
outside my own realm here .. but that's how it stands right now.
:asian:
		
Click to expand...

* I completely agree WHATEVER title a person chooses is their own right. Oh by the way I don't think my belt gives me any "title", I think my knowledge does.

:asian: With Respect, KenpoDragon


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## Kenpomachine (May 25, 2003)

KenpoDragon, I think you're missing Kirk's point. I can call Clyde, Clyde, with the utmost respect, and I can call you (it's an example) sensei, and say it in such a way that is completely disrespectful. 

Of the two instructors I have, ones likes being called master, and the other by his name. Both of them are equally respected, no more no less. The title makes no difference.

And by the way, demanding respect it's not a good way to achieve it.


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## MartialArtsGuy (May 25, 2003)

My 2 cents

I use Sifu, Sensei, and Sir or Mr. if im not sure. Heck, I had a MA teacher who wanted people to call him by his first name in class. I will not call anyone master or grandmaster. Besides i think of it this way. I know some people have huge egos, while others do not. If i notice someone getting upset with me for not calling them master or grandmaster, than i definately wont call them that. If they feel like they have to remind me verbally of their title, I may even leave. 

However, if i am being taught by someone with exceptional skill, and superior teaching skills, all with humility, which reflect years of experience, than i think to myself that this person is a great grandmaster/master, but ill never tell them that. I will treat them with the upmost respect. They will see this from others and know that they are a master of the martial arts. They dont have to go fishing for it. They know it themselves. Ed Parker was a great grandmaster. I'd never adress him that way, and i dont think he would have a problem with that. 

Im sure there are some who disagree with me but thats ok.


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *My 2 cents
> 
> I use Sifu, Sensei, and Sir or Mr. if im not sure. Heck, I had a MA teacher who wanted people to call him by his first name in class. I will not call anyone master or grandmaster. Besides i think of it this way. I know some people have huge egos, while others do not. If i notice someone getting upset with me for not calling them master or grandmaster, than i definately wont call them that. If they feel like they have to remind me verbally of their title, I may even leave.
> ...



I know Larry tells me stories of when he and Mr. Parker used to go out, he called him Ed.     I call Larry sir on the mats and Larry off the mats, but he certainly doesn't expect me to address him in any way specific.    His respect is earned by all that meet him when they see what he has to offer.      I tell people that train with me to call me by name, on and off the mat, it's what I prefer.    I did 11 years in the military and got enough of that PROTOCOL  crap to last a lifetime thank you.   You are only as good as your students in my book, and making it easier for them to relax around you is key to learning, so far, I've had the best results.      

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *KenpoDragon, I think you're missing Kirk's point. I can call Clyde, Clyde, with the utmost respect, and I can call you (it's an example) sensei, and say it in such a way that is completely disrespectful.
> 
> Of the two instructors I have, ones likes being called master, and the other by his name. Both of them are equally respected, no more no less. The title makes no difference.
> ...


 Kenpomachine, when you are teaching there has to be respect in the classroom otherwise your students will take advantage of you and the training they are receiving. If one of my students demonstrated some type of lack of respect as you stated in addressing me or a fellow student, then he would be punished in a adequate manner. I do not allow disrespect for anyone in the classroom, myself or my students. Respect is a two way street. You must give to receive. When you enter a classroom you make a choice do I want to play by the rules or try and break them. Well in my classroom if you don't play by the rules, you don't play at all. I will tell a student to sit down or do push-ups, or if necessary leave. I can not afford disruptive behavior in a martial arts class. There are too many possibilities for danger. If one kid is messing around and his partner/ opponent is serious and focused, then someone might get seriously injured. I've seen it far too many times in other classrooms, that's how a lot of injuries happen. If you don't feel you need to respect me when you enter my classroom, then I don't feel the need to teach you, plain and simple. I have done the whole call me by my first name thing, and I will never do it again, it is o.k if your students are focused and mature enough to understand the teachings you are giving them, but it doesn't work for younger students. Everyone chooses what they would like to be called in "their" classroom, after all it is their classroom, and it's their choice.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## MartialArtsGuy (May 25, 2003)

Clyde

So we agree?

I hear ya though, I'd feel goofy having people call me a "grandmaster" It makes me think of an old wizard in one of those lord of the rings movies.

You are right about the military, when i was in the navy i had this experience where i walked past a chief (E7 another enlisted man i was an E3) and said, "whats up". In the past i always thought this guy was cool, and had respect for this fellow shipmate. Well, he responded with a "dont whats up me. im a chief and you dont whats up me, u get me" well i said "yeah chief" and he says "you mean yes chief" so i said yes chief and walked away feeling bad for the guy. Not only did i lose respect for him, but i wondered about what short comings he had that made him feel he needed to do that to me and in front of a few other friends. In ports id hang out with ensigns and LT's and they were officers and never gave me that crap. 

I was at 2 or 3 of Mr. Tatums seminars. He is a walking bank of kenpo knowledge.


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## webpage20022003 (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *
> 
> And by the way, demanding respect it's not a good way to achieve it. *



excellence point. Respect should be EARNED.


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *Clyde
> 
> So we agree?
> ...



Way cool to know another vet on the board, there are a few of us here.    Protocol in the military is the same way, there are those that demand and those that earn.    We had one Captain that was prior enlisted (E-6) who knew what the deal was.    He had more repsepect from me than I gave  the Base Commander.    Had he sent me into a bad situation I probably would've done it without hesitation and one where I would have told any other officer to get bent, and would've been happy to go to jail because of it.    Off base we called him by his first name but on base I was happy to refer to him either by rank or Sir, he'd earned that the hard way.    He set a standard for me I'll never forget as far as rank and titles go.

As far as Larry, he's the same way (vet as well from Vietnam) and we both feel respect for rank and title is earned, never demanded.       I'll never forget my first lesson with him, and for that matter he still reminds me of it.    I came bopping up his driveway and he's in the middle of a lesson.    He immediately stops the lesson momentarily and gets up to greet me.    I tell "Hi, I'm Clyde, your 10 o'clock and he says "Hi, I'm Larry and I'll be with you in a few minutes, do you want to get dressed?".    I knew I was in the right place at that moment and have yet to look back, that was 13 years ago.      My respect for him his unparalleled and he's never given me any reason to question what and why he does things.    To me, Larry is the Fort Knox of Kenpo and extremely underpaid when I see this new kid out of High School with a $90 million contract from Nike for being a basketball player.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kenpomachine (May 26, 2003)

KenpoDragon, 

First, you are talking about discipline in class, not respect. 

Second, you still miss the point about titles not equalling/meaning respect by the one who is saying it, towards the one holding the title.

Third, I use you as an example because it was you the one I was replying, by wasn't intended as a personal attack. If it was considered that way, I'm sorry and you have my apologies.


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