# What is the equivalent of a black belt in Jeet Kune Do



## Mider1985 (Dec 9, 2009)

I know there is no black belts in jeet kune do. Dan Inosanto has levels like apprentice instructor, or full instructor and there are levels 1-4

My question basically what would you need to achieve to be a black belt? Or what in Jeet Kune Do rankings EQUALS to a black belt first dan or whatever


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## blindsage (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't train in JKD, but I think it's probably whatever a qualified instructor decides.


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## Mider1985 (Dec 10, 2009)

blindsage said:


> I don't train in JKD, but I think it's probably whatever a qualified instructor decides.


 
Im looking for a more definitive answer but thanks


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## stone_dragone (Dec 10, 2009)

Again, not a JKD guy, but my understanding is the title or certificate awarded for proficiency will vary greatly depending on the instructor.  I have read articles written by thus-and-such who was a Certified Instructor under this or that guy and have spoken to others who was certified Level X in JKD.  The only certificate that I have ever actually seen was from Jerry Poteet and it simply said the person was "Certified in the Art of Jeet Kun Do" without any qualifier as to level or status.  

So in my minimal understanding, the question about "black belt equivalent" in JKD is trying to assign an outside value to something that it can't apply to across the board.  

I hope this helps a little.


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## blindsage (Dec 10, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> Im looking for a more definitive answer but thanks


That was my point, there isn't a more definitive answer.  I'm sure a JKD practitioner will come on here and clarify, but my understanding is that all Bruce Lee ever did was certify people to teach.  If there are any kind of ranks they come from those individual teachers (or the students they qualified to teach later) and are not a standard across JKD.  There is no definitive answer to your question.


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## Mider1985 (Dec 10, 2009)

blindsage said:


> That was my point, there isn't a more definitive answer. I'm sure a JKD practitioner will come on here and clarify, but my understanding is that all Bruce Lee ever did was certify people to teach. If there are any kind of ranks they come from those individual teachers (or the students they qualified to teach later) and are not a standard across JKD. There is no definitive answer to your question.


 
WRONG. Bruce Lee had ranks 1-8 He was eight. Bruce Lee gave permission to Inosanto to Instruct the instructor who was above Inosanto moved out of the states and gave control over JKD as a whole to Inosanto. Inosanto got rid of the original system and made a system like apprentice or associate and then full instructor and seniour instructor my question is WHICH ONE is a black belt or equals a black belt


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## Blindside (Dec 10, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> Inosanto got rid of the original system and made a system like apprentice or associate and then full instructor and seniour instructor my question is WHICH ONE is a black belt or equals a black belt


 
Can you define what you mean by a "black belt?"  In some systems that means a basic understanding of the material and in others it means "instructor."


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## Nolerama (Dec 10, 2009)

Do JKD people really care about that sort of thing? I mean, a JKD student can be extremely proficient in what he/she has learned in JKD, but won't want to teach it... And I've only seen "ranked" people in JKD as levels of instructors.

But that's just from my perspective. There may be JKD ranks for the non-instructors.


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## blindsage (Dec 10, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> WRONG. Bruce Lee had ranks 1-8 He was eight. Bruce Lee gave permission to Inosanto to Instruct the instructor who was above Inosanto moved out of the states and gave control over JKD as a whole to Inosanto. Inosanto got rid of the original system and made a system like apprentice or associate and then full instructor and seniour instructor my question is WHICH ONE is a black belt or equals a black belt


Yes, sorry, you are correct he gave ranks.  None of which seems to be a direct equivalent to black belt.  Whatever that means.


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## Mider1985 (Dec 10, 2009)

When i say black belt i mean someone who has achieved like the highest rank.........or at least a rank above other ranks of course there are things like black belt level 1 level 2 and 3 etc etc or dan or something like that. So when i say Black belt i guess im talking about a master


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## J Ellis (Dec 10, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> WRONG. Bruce Lee had ranks 1-8 He was eight. Bruce Lee gave permission to Inosanto to Instruct the instructor who was above Inosanto moved out of the states and gave control over JKD as a whole to Inosanto. Inosanto got rid of the original system and made a system like apprentice or associate and then full instructor and seniour instructor my question is WHICH ONE is a black belt or equals a black belt


 
If you knew that much already, why did you not also know there is not a standard answer to your question that would apply to all JKD practitioners? The style is deliberately subjective, so it is no surprise the ranking might be as well.

For the record, most of us do not equate _black belt_ with _master_. If the two are synonymous, I'm taking mine off...now. Even within the same styles or systems, a black belt may mean _very_ different things in different schools or under different instructors.

Perhaps a better question would be: What level of certification in Mr. X's JKD organization is equivalent to a black belt (however we define the latter grade)?

Joel


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## Mider1985 (Dec 11, 2009)

J Ellis said:


> If you knew that much already, why did you not also know there is not a standard answer to your question that would apply to all JKD practitioners? The style is deliberately subjective, so it is no surprise the ranking might be as well.
> 
> For the record, most of us do not equate _black belt_ with _master_. If the two are synonymous, I'm taking mine off...now. Even within the same styles or systems, a black belt may mean _very_ different things in different schools or under different instructors.
> 
> ...


 
When i talk about Mr X i mean Dan Inosanto


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## ap Oweyn (Dec 11, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> WRONG. Bruce Lee had ranks 1-8 He was eight. Bruce Lee gave permission to Inosanto to Instruct the instructor who was above Inosanto moved out of the states and gave control over JKD as a whole to Inosanto. Inosanto got rid of the original system and made a system like apprentice or associate and then full instructor and seniour instructor my question is WHICH ONE is a black belt or equals a black belt


 
Mider1985, you and I corresponded on Martialartsplanet a bit.  So I know that this question is part of a broader search on your part.  And I wanted to make two points:

1) People are _trying to help you_, so the tone you take in this response is neither justified nor, I shouldn't think, much appreciated.  If you're so sure of the response you want already, I think you'd be much better off simply imagining that one of us said that, rather than speaking to well-meaning posters like this.

2) If you're asking this question in order to determine whether JKD is the style for you, then I think you're approaching it backward.  You've asked about a series of systems and styles, without considering what your access to any of them is, as far as I can tell.  I really think you'd benefit more from finding what's available to you.  And if there IS a JKD teacher available to you, it stands to reason that you ask HIM or HER what the equivalent to a black belt would be.  (And the answer would still be subjective, even then.)


Stuart


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## frank raud (Dec 22, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> WRONG. Bruce Lee had ranks 1-8 He was eight. Bruce Lee gave permission to Inosanto to Instruct the instructor who was above Inosanto moved out of the states and gave control over JKD as a whole to Inosanto.


 
Who was the instructor who was over Inosanto?


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## khand50 (Dec 25, 2009)

i hope i can give you a broad idea of the concept of black belt.  as stated on here previously,  a black belt can be a beginner up to what is considered master.  example.  itf tae kwon do.  cho dan bo is a basic black belt.  at this level,  he has now learned the basics of the art.  he is ready to start learning the art.  a 4th dan is considered an international instructor.  5th dan and up are master instructors.  that was the information given to me by my former 7th dan master instructor, jong moon lee of rockford il,  in 1981.  
as far as jkd goes,  if you take a poll of general skills and abilities of black belts,  you might get a broad range and find just where a jkd practitioner fits in according to that type of ranking system.  i trained at a school in wpb fl in 1991 with the late edwin pagan.  ed told me that an advanced student in his class had the skill level equivalent to a 2nd dan black belt in the typical martial arts class.  that was his opinion based upon his level and his teaching of jkd,  under richard bustillo.  
another kung fu instructor i had in 1984 told me basically the same thing.  advanced student was equivalent to 2nd dan.  he based his idea on the fact that we trained and sparred with a nearby goju ryu karate school.  our advanced students were at about the same level as their 2nd dan black belts.  its not a scientific study or formulated upon any true criteria taken,  but it might give you some idea.  
i taught a martial arts class years ago in the mid eighties and my beginning student, after ten weeks of training with me,  (who was a 12 year old girl),  had sparred with her father,  a student of a local karate master for six months,  and she beat him.  he took her out of my class stating that it was wrong to teach sparring so soon.  he had not done any sparring in the six months he was in the karate class!   i told him he should be thankful that his 12 year old daughter would less likely be raped after attending my classes....
belts arent usually given in jkd.  they normally use beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels.  then either apprentice or assistant instructor, then instructor.   some jkd schools even go into intermediate and advanced instructor.  personally,  i dont like the entire belt system nowadays because it seems outdated.  too many people cross training in other arts.  my thoughts on this are simple.  i believe this idea came from something i read by dan inosanto.  
knowledge and learning are like a circle.  you come into the circle of knowledge bringing your experience and own knowledge with you.  you may come from a background of primarily kicking arts and need to learn close range and grappling arts to help complete your knowledge and round out your abilities.  how can you take a black belt from another system and put them in with white belts who have no knowledge?  or very limited knowledge...their knowledge of fighting my be pretty good,  but they need to work on other areas.  
for me,  i have considered the idea of using the term,  phase training.  each phase has certain requirements and conditions.  if you come in and know what is in phase two,  you need to work on phase one.  the only reason they are numbered is to give the instructor an idea of what the individual is learning or has learned.  once you complete all the phases you move into the associate or apprentice instructor phase,  where you get experience teaching.  its something i have been kicking around for some time.   
i just wanted to share some of my ideas with you all.  i hope it helps in some way.  thanks for reading.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 26, 2009)

Mider1985 said:


> When i say black belt i mean someone who has achieved like the highest rank.........or at least a rank above other ranks of course there are things like black belt level 1 level 2 and 3 etc etc or dan or something like that. So when i say Black belt i guess im talking about a master



Part of the problem with the answer, is the question.  JKD was never developed as a system where individuals are taught a pre-structured system, mastery of which is considered the ultimate goal.  JKD was always considered a beginning, a means of starting one on the path to exploring one's own personal JKD.......at least as I understand it, and in Dan Inosanto's JKD concepts that is still the case........there is no ultimate master of JKD concepts, as it is always evolving, even with the individuals themselves.

I'm not a JKD practioner per-se, but I have had the privilege of training with Guro Inosanto on a couple of occasions, and hearing him speak, and the above is my interpretation.  He does consider learning the basis of Bruce Lee's JKD as a prerequisite, but after that one is expected to jump off and develop in the direction of their individual JKD, adding that which is useful to them........and that being the case, the notion that one can be a 'Grand Master' in JKD is kind of moot, as who's JKD are they claiming 'Grand Master' status in?

Perhaps this will help.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl-nErhLev0&feature=related




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxrgU9uPBzo&feature=related


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