# Training disarms with a laser cartridge



## Runs With Fire (Apr 27, 2018)

Anybody ever do this? My krav instructor loaded his carry piece with a laser cartridge (one of the ones that turns on for a split second when the firing pin strikes it) and had us take a number of goes with it.  It was a fairly static start.  Gunman presents gun with arms fully extended.  Gun within four feet of defenders body.  Defender has hands raised.  The drill is to try and shoot them when they first move.  It was not too easy.  To make matters worse, the rest of class watched to look for where the red dot hit.  It was about 50/50 at first, with much improvement at the end.  I'm pretty sure every time, the gun fired.  It was a good experience.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

I'm not a fan of using any firearm for this purpose that ever holds actual ammo. A real gun, painted to be distinguishable and with the mag well blocked? Maybe.

Anyway, it's not a bad drill, though it's tough to be sure you're seeing that little dot every time. I've wanted to try this with marking cartridges, though you'd have to be aware of collateral damage (both observers and objects/walls).

EDIT: I'm not wild about the "shoot when they first move" instruction. It changes the dynamic. I prefer setting a scenario that makes the gunman have to decide if the movement is threatening or not - such as asking for a wallet, or demanding they move to a certain area.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of using any firearm for this purpose that ever holds actual ammo. A real gun, painted to be distinguishable and with the mag well blocked? Maybe.
> 
> Anyway, it's not a bad drill, though it's tough to be sure you're seeing that little dot every time. I've wanted to try this with marking cartridges, though you'd have to be aware of collateral damage (both observers and objects/walls).
> 
> EDIT: I'm not wild about the "shoot when they first move" instruction. It changes the dynamic. I prefer setting a scenario that makes the gunman have to decide if the movement is threatening or not - such as asking for a wallet, or demanding they move to a certain area.


It does bother me a little, but I think I am okay with it.  We did it in a class with many newer students, so it was kept simple.


----------



## wab25 (Apr 27, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> To make matters worse, the rest of class watched to look for where the red dot hit.


We did a similar thing, using simunition guns (we had an FBI swat team leader come in to work with us...) The whole class did watch to see where the simunition round went. The look on their face was a pretty good indication of whether they got hit or not. (if you were still unsure, the cursing that followed would tell you when they got hit...)


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

wab25 said:


> We did a similar thing, using simunition guns (we had an FBI swat team leader come in to work with us...) The whole class did watch to see where the simunition round went. The look on their face was a pretty good indication of whether they got hit or not. (if you were still unsure, the cursing that followed would tell you when they got hit...)


I've often thought about the value - and pain - of using simunitions. In the end, I mostly wuss out.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> Anybody ever do this? My krav instructor loaded his carry piece with a laser cartridge (one of the ones that turns on for a split second when the firing pin strikes it) and had us take a number of goes with it.  It was a fairly static start.  Gunman presents gun with arms fully extended.  Gun within four feet of defenders body.  Defender has hands raised.  The drill is to try and shoot them when they first move.  It was not too easy.  To make matters worse, the rest of class watched to look for where the red dot hit.  It was about 50/50 at first, with much improvement at the end.  I'm pretty sure every time, the gun fired.  It was a good experience.



This is an idiotic thing to do with any gun that is ever loaded. Get a dummy gun that's specifically designed for this sort of training and _*cannot*_ fire a real round.
What your instructor is doing is how people end up dead.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Apr 27, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is an idiotic thing to do with any gun that is ever loaded. Get a dummy gun that's specifically designed for this sort of training and _*cannot*_ fire a real round.
> What your instructor is doing is how people end up dead.


I could see that.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 27, 2018)

Agreed that there are simulation firearms like the SIRT that are designed for this.  Stay away from a real firearm.  My other question was were you completing the disarm or just trying to grab the gun.  Because if you were trying to disarm I would think the attacker at some point would have a broken finger.  All our firearm disarms involve the attacker getting a broken finger on the disarm.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Apr 27, 2018)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Agreed that there are simulation firearms like the SIRT that are designed for this.  Stay away from a real firearm.  My other question was were you completing the disarm or just trying to grab the gun.  Because if you were trying to disarm I would think the attacker at some point would have a broken finger.  All our firearm disarms involve the attacker getting a broken finger on the disarm.


Yeah, never speciified that.  Move out of line of fire and  controll the weapon, slowly disarm so we retain ten fingers.  The rubber pistols we usualy use have trigger guards removed.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Apr 27, 2018)

I'd love to have a few non firing trainers with a built in laser.  I've seen them, just can't buy anything fun for a while.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've often thought about the value - and pain - of using simunitions. In the end, I mostly wuss out.



We do close Quarter Gunfighting Training with Glock 9 mm Simunition guns....a lot of fun.

Simunitions training with AR-15 Simunition gun.....not so much.....still have scar on left bicep from last year.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Apr 27, 2018)

Checking prices; I might be able to swing a  cheap laserlyte.  I wonder how well they hold up to being manhandled.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 27, 2018)

The SIRT trainers are built to last.  High quality but expensive.  I have five that I use for firearms training.


----------



## Brian King (Apr 27, 2018)

Gas operated Airsoft for testing and blue guns or broken or marked 'live' for training. The ammo is inexpensive and training gear is also inexpensive...goggles for everyone in the room. Do not pad up, t-shirts, pants, and goggles. Pain is an extremely honest training partner.
Regards
Brian King


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> We do close Quarter Gunfighting Training with Glock 9 mm Simunition guns....a lot of fun.
> 
> Simunitions training with AR-15 Simunition gun.....not so much.....still have scar on left bicep from last year.


Ow. 

Is simunitions even available to civilians?


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Ow.
> 
> Is simunitions even available to civilians?



I would think so


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Ow.
> 
> Is simunitions even available to civilians?



Of course. Why wouldn't they be? 
Without access to training tools, stupid people would be using real guns!


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 27, 2018)

My karate sensei once had me unload my concealed carry and use it for gun disarm practice. While I would never endorse doing such a thing under normal circumstances, my sensei was retired law enforcement and SWAT, and several of us in the class were law enforcement and military. As a precaution, after myself and an off-duty LEO both unloaded our weapons, we passed our weapons around, slides locked back and magazine wells empty, and every student personally inspected them to ensure they were unloaded. I will say that while I probably will never train that way again, I did learn a bit from training with my own weapon. For example, the probability of my opponent getting a chance to disarm me was much higher when my weapon was decocked vs.when it was cocked.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course. Why wouldn't they be?
> Without access to training tools, stupid people would be using real guns!


Many less-lethal rounds are not available to civilians, which drives me nuts. I can buy 12ga. slugs, but not baton rounds.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2018)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> My karate sensei once had me unload my concealed carry and use it for gun disarm practice. While I would never endorse doing such a thing under normal circumstances, my sensei was retired law enforcement and SWAT, and several of us in the class were law enforcement and military. As a precaution, after myself and an off-duty LEO both unloaded our weapons, we passed our weapons around, slides locked back and magazine wells empty, and every student personally inspected them to ensure they were unloaded. I will say that while I probably will never train that way again, I did learn a bit from training with my own weapon. For example, the probability of my opponent getting a chance to disarm me was much higher when my weapon was decocked vs.when it was cocked.



So not one, not two, but a whole bunch of people who should have known better. #facepalm



gpseymour said:


> Many less-lethal rounds are not available to civilians, which drives me nuts. I can buy 12ga. slugs, but not baton rounds.



True enough. There are lots of things that are illegal (automatic knives in many states, for example) for which there is no rational reason for the prohibition.

In any case, wax bullets are not illegal. You can buy them.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 27, 2018)

Honestly, for your purposes, I'd recommend a good, semiautomatic airsoft gun. While I personally am not that familiar with airsoft technology, I've trained with simunitions with the military a few times (including yesterday and today), and they are often more trouble than they are worth in my opinion. For example, unlike airsoft, which, if I'm not mistaken, requires only eye protection for safety equipment, simunitions require a large pad to protect the groin and a face mask to protect the face at a minimum. The face mask in particular is troublesome, especially when you're working with a carbine, because it basically ensures you can't get a good sight picture.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 27, 2018)

There are procedures that can be used to reduce the possibility of a live round getting into a scenario using real guns.  No live ammo in the room.  Check, double check, triple check before using the weapon.  Flags or other similar devices to prevent ammo from being chambered.  (The laser gadget might qualify for that.)

But, even so, it's an invitation for tragedy on one side or the other.  Even with good safety procedures, and people mostly adhering... live ammo or weapons have gotten into scenario areas.  Or people have left the training environment and discovered they never loaded up...  The BEST practice is to avoid using live guns in this sort of training.  Airsoft, marking cartridges, even squirt guns are easily available and cheap.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But, even so, it's an invitation for tragedy on one side or the other.  Even with good safety procedures, and people mostly adhering... live ammo or weapons have gotten into scenario areas.  Or people have left the training environment and discovered they never loaded up...  The BEST practice is to avoid using live guns in this sort of training.  Airsoft, marking cartridges, even squirt guns are easily available and cheap.



You're not wrong. As said, I probably would not replicate my sensei's training method. That being said, I did get some good training out of it, but it's simply not the risk to practice this way further in the future.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 28, 2018)

When I trained it we used rubber band guns. We knew when we got shot. And if we break them just replace them

Having disarmed knives, bottles and even the occasional phone off guys. Again it is a timing issue not so much a technique one.

I see the weapon and just launch at them. Then hang on like a dog until the give it up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> When I trained it we used rubber band guns. We knew when we got shot. And if we break them just replace them
> 
> Having disarmed knives, bottles and even the occasional phone off guys. Again it is a timing issue not so much a technique one.
> 
> I see the weapon and just launch at them. Then hang on like a dog until the give it up.


With a gun, there is the added dimension of controlling where it points, and (especially for that reason) needing to possess it quickly.

Practicing disarms, as a whole practice - has two major points to it. Firstly, to get the brain a bit more familiar with struggling over a weapon (rather than freezing). Secondly, to get a chance to tinker and find out what becomes a problem when there's a pointy (or other dangerous) object involved. The basics are pretty much what you said - get in fast, get some control, and stay with it until you own it.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> With a gun, there is the added dimension of controlling where it points, and (especially for that reason) needing to possess it quickly.
> 
> Practicing disarms, as a whole practice - has two major points to it. Firstly, to get the brain a bit more familiar with struggling over a weapon (rather than freezing). Secondly, to get a chance to tinker and find out what becomes a problem when there's a pointy (or other dangerous) object involved. The basics are pretty much what you said - get in fast, get some control, and stay with it until you own it.



You don't really want to be staring down the buisness end of a broken bottle either to be honest. You tend to get that pointed away as well.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You don't really want to be staring down the buisness end of a broken bottle either to be honest. You tend to get that pointed away as well.



Honestly, up close and personal I'm more afraid of a knife. While a gun is obviously the greater threat at range, in grabbing range you're _relatively _safe if you can keep the muzzle pointed somewhere else. Because a knife has both the point and the edge, it can threaten you from multiple angles.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> When I trained it we used rubber band guns. We knew when we got shot. And if we break them just replace them.



If you don't want to spend the cash on simulators (which can certainly be pricey) this is a good option. Rubber band guns, squirt guns (maybe with some red water colors added for gruesome effect) and such work well. Large markers or chalk sticks work well for knife simulations. Or a plastic/rubber knife with some paint (or similar) along the edge.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 28, 2018)

Look you can use real firearms you just have to make sure there are plenty of safety guidelines.

Every time you handle it you check and have someone else recheck that it is unloaded and safe.

In class if we are using a real gun every time we pick it up we check that it is safe and show the class that it is safe.



Never use a firearm in a demonstration that hasn’t been checked and then verified by another person.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Look you can use real firearms you just have to make sure there are plenty of safety guidelines.



Sure. You can. There's lots of things you CAN do that are still stupid.
In my car, I can reach speeds of over 200 MPH. Do you think it would be stupid of me to do so on my way to work tomorrow evening?
There are way too many readily available, affordable, completely safe options to ever excuse using a real gun in these sort of exercises.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. You can. There's lots of things you CAN do that are still stupid.
> In my car, I can reach speeds of over 200 MPH. Do you think it would be stupid of me to do so on my way to work tomorrow evening?
> There are way too many readily available, affordable, completely safe options to ever excuse using a real gun in these sort of exercises.


Agreed. If it needs the absolute feel of a real gun, there are ways to alter one to be incapable of handling a live round and make it recognizable as such. Yep, it can be expensive if you buy a gun specifically for that, but if it's that important...


----------



## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> In my car, I can reach speeds of over 200 MPH.



What car do you have?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> What car do you have?


It's an old Yugo. Yellow.


----------



## pdg (Apr 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's an old Yugo. Yellow.



Awesome.

A woman down the road used to have a Yugo 45 in mustard - I always wanted that car.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you don't want to spend the cash on simulators (which can certainly be pricey) this is a good option. Rubber band guns, squirt guns (maybe with some red water colors added for gruesome effect) and such work well. Large markers or chalk sticks work well for knife simulations. Or a plastic/rubber knife with some paint (or similar) along the edge.


Spatulas...  There are some rubber spatulas that are great knife substitutes.  They're inexpensive, and stiff enough to be useful without being too rigid.  And they have an "edge."


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Look you can use real firearms you just have to make sure there are plenty of safety guidelines.
> 
> Every time you handle it you check and have someone else recheck that it is unloaded and safe.
> 
> ...


Absolutely...  yet, every year, in an academy somewhere, there's an accidental discharge in a classroom or someone shot in simulation training that wasn't supposed to have live ammo.  Typically, when you look through, you find the "oh, he just stepped out for a moment, and nobody checked him when he came back" instant... but still, worth trying to avoid.  We typically use a flag system that prevents a round entering the chamber and indicates that the gun is safe if we're doing something with real but empty guns...  Here is a link to the sort of thing I mean.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> What car do you have?



Nothing much. Just a 20 year old Chevy. Bone stock. 
At least, that's the description I give when setting up a race. 

It's actually an semi-accurate description. It really is a 20 year old Chevy. 
Corvette.
With an 815HP engine.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 29, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Absolutely...  yet, every year, in an academy somewhere, there's an accidental discharge in a classroom or someone shot in simulation training that wasn't supposed to have live ammo.  Typically, when you look through, you find the "oh, he just stepped out for a moment, and nobody checked him when he came back" instant... but still, worth trying to avoid.  We typically use a flag system that prevents a round entering the chamber and indicates that the gun is safe if we're doing something with real but empty guns...  Here is a link to the sort of thing I mean.



I'm also willing to bet you're not pointing them at people, despite the flag.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you don't want to spend the cash on simulators (which can certainly be pricey) this is a good option. Rubber band guns, squirt guns (maybe with some red water colors added for gruesome effect) and such work well. Large markers or chalk sticks work well for knife simulations. Or a plastic/rubber knife with some paint (or similar) along the edge.


For knife work, we use rubber or cold steel trainers.  Wet the edge and  coat it in red chalkline powder.  Wear a white t-shirt.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> For knife work, we use rubber or cold steel trainers.  Wet the edge and  coat it in red chalkline powder.  Wear a white t-shirt.



There's a real nifty knife simulator I've seen (but never tried) that has, essentially, an electrical wire along the edge. I'm sure that's about as close to real as anyone should ever get. And closer than I'd willingly get. The descriptions I've seen sound painful.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2018)

My google-fu is strong...

It's called a shockknife. Check it out. 
$500 is too pricey for me, but you'd for sure know when you got "cut" by it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There's a real nifty knife simulator I've seen (but never tried) that has, essentially, an electrical wire along the edge. I'm sure that's about as close to real as anyone should ever get. And closer than I'd willingly get. The descriptions I've seen sound painful.


I’ve wanted one of those for a while. My biggest issue with them is they (and most rigid trainers) tend to encourage slashes over stabs, which isn’t in line with what I see in videos of actual knife attacks.


----------



## Brian King (Apr 30, 2018)

For professionals in any profession, it is important to use the proper tool for the proper job. Matters no less if you are a chef, brain surgeon, house cleaner, or military/Law enforcement professional. For those that teach or that train with active professionals it is important to use the right tool to get the most benefit out of the training.

The different phases of learning will come into play as well. An absolute beginner needs different training aids than a long time practitioner in my opinion. Someone training up for combat needs different aspects of training than someone spending a few enjoyable hours of weekend training.

Training firearm disarms and retentions it is important to remember that two or more people are training at the same time. The person holding the weapon and the person attempting to take the weapon. There can be (and should be) psychological tempering for both, pulling the trigger and causing pain, and calmly and rationally facing and moving against an aimed firearm should be emphasized as well as the practice techniques or movements in my opinion.

A laser cartridge is great for practicing trigger pull, checking if your handgun seating is true or the face weld on a long gun is correct. It is good inexpensive point shooting practice that can be accomplished quietly at home or office. For weapon disarms or retention practice I do not believe that this tool is that beneficial.

Blue guns, rubber guns, aluminum cast guns, real firearms, these are great for practicing violent takeaways as they can take a beating without catastrophic failures to the weapon system. Each type mentioned has a strength and weakness.

Rubber guns have the structural give that allow for mistakes without the broken fingers or cracked teeth. Their weakness is that the structural give is unnatural and that the leverage is altered.

Blue/red guns have the structured strength needed for leveraged takeaways and retentions. The disadvantage is that they even though they are solid plastic and they feel it. The psychology of having a plastic weapon placed to your neck is different than a hard cold/hot metal weapon. The psychology of pointing a blue gun is different than pointing a more realistic firearm.

Aluminum cast weapons have the structured strength to practice any leveraged takeaways and retentions. They also have the feel of metal whether placed against skin, muscle, or bone. The disadvantage is that they shatter if during practice they fly any distance and land on hard surfaces. They also can mark mats and gouge wood floors. In extreme coldness they are uncomfortable and easy to break.

That nothing feels more real than a real firearm is obvious. The coldness, the sharp edges, the smell, and the feel is very difficult to recreate. The psychology of pointing and having one pointed at you can be intense and deep. One con is that they are expensive and no one wants theirs scratched and tossed across the room. An additional con is that the psychology of pointing and having one pointed at you can be intense and deep. I do not believe that most need to train with real firearms unless you use a firearm for your profession and even then not too often and highly recommend a flagging method be adopted and used.

 I have seen live fire practice and cannot and do not recommend this type of training. The training aids available to us  today make this type of training obsolete and the risks far outweigh any possible benefit.

Airsoft, blank firing arms, firearms adjusted to fire simunitions, paintball weapons are also great for practicing disarms and retentions. Again each has a place in the training in my opinion.

Blank firing arms (must still wear protection) are great for experiencing the noise, flash, and smell of gunfire at close range (especially unexpected discharges are of training benefit). Seeing the empty cartridge fly and feeling the shockwave of the discharge can be disorientating.

Airsoft and simunitions are great for training disarms and retentions as pain is a very good teacher and the psychology of pulling the trigger and knowingly causing pain to your training partner as well as seeing your training partner pull the trigger and feeling the immediate pain cannot be overstated. Airsoft weapons are mostly inexpensive and can often be found in the make and model of familiar handguns and rifles. Airsoft ammo is very inexpensive but there is nothing soft about airsoft. I recommend the gas operated metal models. Simunitions are expensive and very difficult to get unless you are a member of an official agency. Should you ever get a chance to train with them, do. Wear much more protection than airsoft.

Paint ball weapons are fun and visually point out immediately hits or misses. They are not as tough and durable as other training aids, so violent disarms can damage the tool. They also often do not have the feel of real weapons.

Rubber band guns, squirt guns, pointing your finger- better than nothing and any training in many cases is better than no training.

For armed professionals or those that train them or with them, taking the time to learn about and experience the advantages and disadvantages of the different training tools available is well worth the effort and expense in my opinion.

Regards

Brian King


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I’ve wanted one of those for a while. My biggest issue with them is they (and most rigid trainers) tend to encourage slashes over stabs, which isn’t in line with what I see in videos of actual knife attacks.



They do, and this is a big problem. One thing I can promise you, after treating one or two knife wounds... slashing is messy, but LOTS easier to fix than a stab wound.
In general, you can be slashed multiple times on the torso, get some stitches and go home (or jail or whatever). One good stab to the torso and you're staying. Probably with a visit to the OR.


----------



## Runs With Fire (May 1, 2018)

Brian King said:


> For professionals in any profession, it is important to use the proper tool for the proper job. Matters no less if you are a chef, brain surgeon, house cleaner, or military/Law enforcement professional. For those that teach or that train with active professionals it is important to use the right tool to get the most benefit out of the training.
> 
> The different phases of learning will come into play as well. An absolute beginner needs different training aids than a long time practitioner in my opinion. Someone training up for combat needs different aspects of training than someone spending a few enjoyable hours of weekend training.
> 
> ...


A blank firing pistol, like a starter pistol, that's what I want!


----------



## punisher73 (May 1, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is an idiotic thing to do with any gun that is ever loaded. Get a dummy gun that's specifically designed for this sort of training and _*cannot*_ fire a real round.
> What your instructor is doing is how people end up dead.



Yep.  When our department trains simunitions, we go through triple checks to make sure that there are no weapons anywhere NEAR where we are training and we are patted down several times before and again anytime we exit and re-enter the area.  ALL of the guns used are of a different color to designate them as the sim guns.

There have been WAY too many times when a person accidentally reloads the weapon and ends up shooting someone or something on accident.  This includes firearms instructors who knew better, but still broke one of the main rules.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> They do, and this is a big problem. One thing I can promise you, after treating one or two knife wounds... slashing is messy, but LOTS easier to fix than a stab wound.
> In general, you can be slashed multiple times on the torso, get some stitches and go home (or jail or whatever). One good stab to the torso and you're staying. Probably with a visit to the OR.


A slight swerve here, then I'll get back on topic...

This is one of my observations about knife defense training. Slashes and their defenses look and feel better, so tend to get a lot more attention. Yet stabs are more dangerous and harder to defend, so should probably get the lion's share of the attention. The over-focus on slashes is part of the reason so many don't get to experience failure on a regular basis in knife defense training.


----------



## Invisibleflash (Jul 30, 2019)

OP, sounds like a good use of the laser cartridges. 

I've used laser cartridges for year, but for target work in my house when I can't get to the range.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 30, 2019)

Invisibleflash said:


> OP, sounds like a good use of the laser cartridges.
> 
> I've used laser cartridges for year, but for target work in my house when I can't get to the range.



No. It's not. It's an idiotic use of laser cartridges. Using a real gun for these exercises is moronic. It's begging for disaster. I don't care how careful you claim you are. Don't do it.
Use one of the many many many actual safe alternatives instead.


----------

