# Revenge



## Shaolinwind (Jun 28, 2006)

How do you feel about it?  If you are Christian, you know God says that's for him to take care of. (I tend to follow that school of thought). If you are lawful, you might depend on justice to take care of it.  But when, if ever is it necessary to do the job yourself?  For instance, someone just punched your girlfriend.. Screw him up good?  Or wait for god or the law to do the job?


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## Hand Sword (Jun 28, 2006)

for that situation, if i'm there, It'S ON!


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## MartialIntent (Jun 28, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> How do you feel about it? If you are Christian, you know God says that's for him to take care of. (I tend to follow that school of thought). If you are lawful, you might depend on justice to take care of it. But when, if ever is it necessary to do the job yourself? For instance, someone just punched your girlfriend.. Screw him up good? Or wait for god or the law to do the job?


A very good question SW! Personally I believe vengeance is a *natural* instinct in humans and something which is repressed as part of civilized society interwoven tightly as it is with its various religious proclamations. I think this primal nature in us all is largely contrary to most orthodox religious teachings: jealousy, hatred, vengeance, anger even lust etc. but they're all emotions with powerful ways of manifesting themselves regardless.

I mean, someone is disrespectful to us on an internet forum, we are naturally affronted and I'd be surprised if any of us did not seek recompense in some form. However, our Christian ethic [whether through our faith or simply through our upbringing and societal constraints] tells us to take *no* action. 

What we eventually decide depends very much upon the strength of our faith and commitment therein. The decision I believe becomes more and more difficult the more serious the affront on us, such that when someone strikes us or [imo, worse] someone strikes a friend or family member then our decision to do nothing and resign ourselves to trusting in the omnipotent infinite wisdom of God suddenly [to me] seems an impotent and weak course of action. 

As I say, this is merely my opinion - personally I couldn't face myself knowing that I had done nothing to exact some payback in such an instance. Fwiw, I'm content to be Old Testament and smite with the best of them with regards to the original question!

Respects!


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 28, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> A very good question SW! Personally I believe vengeance is a *natural* instinct in humans and something which is repressed as part of civilized society interwoven tightly as it is with its various religious proclamations. I think this primal nature in us all is largely contrary to most orthodox religious teachings: jealousy, hatred, vengeance, anger even lust etc. but they're all emotions with powerful ways of manifesting themselves regardless.
> 
> I mean, someone is disrespectful to us on an internet forum, we are naturally affronted and I'd be surprised if any of us did not seek recompense in some form. However, our Christian ethic [whether through our faith or simply through our upbringing and societal constraints] tells us to take *no* action.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I agree.  Everyone, everyone who has half a spine will go tooth and nail at someone who assults your girlfriend.  

Now there are other situations.. And anyone who has read my recent posts knows what I am getting at.  I am finding myself angrier and angrier.  I've already sold half the assailant's stuff on craigs list (muahaha) but there is this sort of.. Desparate craving in my bones to put a boot where it belongs.  I'm increasingly consumed by this desire to settle a score for a cowardly attack, but desparately afraid of ramifications.. IE criminal record, making my mother cry, opening a whole new can of worms and breeding more hatred (as if that were possible.)  

I need to get this out of my mind, but there is no way in hell I will ever make amends with this sorry excuse for a human. So.. I'm turning to the wisdom of MT for a little help with my headspace.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 28, 2006)

so far, your mental decision that you came too in your last sentence shows that you are on the right path. Coming from the inner city, I feel ya! I gotta clap back! I can't go out like a puink! etc.... Those feelings will pass with time (maybe a while though). Your fear of the ramifications are helping that along already. I bet your more angry at yourself, upset at getting caught "asleep", and not getting your licks in. Think of it as a good awareness lesson. There are ramifications, eventually it will catch up to the assailants. Hang in there. It will pass! (or more like the intensity will lesson)


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## Nomad (Jun 28, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> How do you feel about it? If you are Christian, you know God says that's for him to take care of. (I tend to follow that school of thought). If you are lawful, you might depend on justice to take care of it. But when, if ever is it necessary to do the job yourself? For instance, someone just punched your girlfriend.. Screw him up good? Or wait for god or the law to do the job?


 
This is an easy one.  Of course you react and take the person out.  Neither you nor likely your girlfriend would be able too pleased if you stood by and did nothing.  This to me is not "revenge", it is simply reacting to a bad and dangerous situation (who says the punch he's thrown is his last? or that he doesn't have further intentions?)

A real question of revenge would be if someone has done something bad (assault, sexual assault, etc.) to you, someone in your family, or a dear friend, and you were unable to intervene while it was happening.  What then do you do?  I think this is very circumstance specific, and also depends greatly on the people involved.  

For instance, what if someone had sexually assaulted your wife or girlfriend, but this occurred many many years ago?  Do you confront them, try to get revenge, or hope somehow that karma will take care of it?  I don't know the answer to this one.

OTOH, if someone were to seriously hurt or sexually assault my daughters, he'd better hope the police get to him before I did.


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## fireman00 (Jun 28, 2006)

I've seen folks who walk away from a situation never to revisit it again - its over and done with and why waste the time and effort to get back at someone. 

I've also seen the worst of folks - who absolutely crushed another person's spirit for a slight.

To me the idea of extracting revenge has a certain appeal at times, but I'm a firm believer in Karma; sooner or later it will come back to bite you in the butt.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 28, 2006)

first:  if I had a girlfriend and they where assulted it would most likely be by my wife so I'd stay out of it as far as I could get.

as for revenge : if I or my family has been wronged I would like to belive that what comes around goes around and they will get theirs some time or other. Now if it is violence that has occured to one of us i have no problem helping kama come to the other person sooner then it might if I did not do any thing.
 Police sure they can have the person if they get their first


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## Cryozombie (Jun 28, 2006)

I dunno your situtaion man, but here's my 2 cents.

If you are there and someone is beating/hitting her, of course you step in, its not "revenge" its defense.

After the fact... be concerned for HER.  Support HER, make sure SHE is ok.

Revenge... not so much.  It doesn't FIX anything.  In fact, it can make things worse.  

Be her rock, not her sword.


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## MartialIntent (Jun 28, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> Well, I agree. Everyone, everyone who has half a spine will go tooth and nail at someone who assults your girlfriend.
> 
> Now there are other situations.. And anyone who has read my recent posts knows what I am getting at. I am finding myself angrier and angrier. I've already sold half the assailant's stuff on craigs list (muahaha) but there is this sort of.. Desparate craving in my bones to put a boot where it belongs. I'm increasingly consumed by this desire to settle a score for a cowardly attack, but desparately afraid of ramifications.. IE criminal record, making my mother cry, opening a whole new can of worms and breeding more hatred (as if that were possible.)
> 
> I need to get this out of my mind, but there is no way in hell I will ever make amends with this sorry excuse for a human. So.. I'm turning to the wisdom of MT for a little help with my headspace.


If you go ahead and follow through on your vengeful intent as a *retrograde* step which it now is [the event having passed] I'd venture my opinion from experience and suggest after you've excised this need, you may feel more guilty than you imagined. 

Of course if you don't follow through, the fact remains that you have an unsatisfied internal demand which, if not either forgotten or adequately repressed [sounds bad but it ain't] will manifest itself in other, possibly less containable ways.

My advice fwiw - if you're gonna follow through you'd need to be prepared for not only having your need for vengeance wholly replaced by guilt, but also of the very real possibility of escalation of your situation. Obviously I'm not aware of what that is, but after your payback, people don't always tidily run off with their tails between their legs never to be seen again, like they do when Steven Seagal stomps them 

OTOH, if you're gonna let it lie, then it has to be resting *in peace*. Either you gotta be sure you can cover it over [which not many folk are trained to do] *or* you gotta redirect your "energy" by having another method of expressing it. And there are many such commonplace methods from poetry to punching the **** out of a hanging carcass out back of your friendly butcher's  Whichever works: common sense - no doubt.

Dunno if this is the cause of your getting "anger and angrier" but if not, maybe if you got to the root of that, your difficult decision might be somewhat more clear cut.

Just my 2 cents - hope it buys you something useful 

Respects!


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## MA-Caver (Jun 28, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> for that situation, if i'm there, It'S ON!


Yep, touch me or mine RIGHT NOW ... I'm apt to do something about it... But then chastise myself later for not being aware-enough to prevent it from happening in the first place. 

I'm not violent.. only to those who would use violence against me without just cause... but then of course I wouldn't do anything to merit "just cause against me. Oh noooo not me.


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 28, 2006)

The quest for revenge is probably responsible for about 90% of the World's problems.

If someone physically attacks a family member of mine, and I'm there, the guy is leaving in a big zip-loc. As stated earlier, that's defense, not revenge.

Hard to say this, and harder to live it, but if it happened and I wasn't there, get the law involved and stay out of it, other than to support the person attacked, also as stated earlier by Technopunk. That was an excellent thought.


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## Bigshadow (Jun 28, 2006)

For every action there is an equal and "opposite" reaction.  This is natural.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2006)

Generally I feel vengeance is a bad thing, but with that being said, you hurt my wife or daughter I will drop you were you stand.


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 2, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> How do you feel about it? If you are Christian, you know God says that's for him to take care of. (I tend to follow that school of thought). If you are lawful, you might depend on justice to take care of it. But when, if ever is it necessary to do the job yourself? For instance, someone just punched your girlfriend.. Screw him up good? Or wait for god or the law to do the job?


Violence is only appropriate in response to violence (in self defense) or to prevent violence.


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## Ronin Moose (Aug 2, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> ......_Now there are other situations.. And anyone who has read my recent posts knows what I am getting at. ...... So.. I'm turning to the wisdom of MT for a little help with my headspace_.


 
OK, if you're referring to the deal with your brother I have to say this - you have already taken the high ground by your actions to date (non-satisfying that they may be), so keep walking in the direction you are already going - *AWAY FROM IT!*  If that means writing your brother out of your life then so be it.  Having been through this I truly understand, and am telling you that IMHO you need to transform that anger into energy for your workouts.  Take it out on the heavy bag.  Best regards..........

*-GARRY*


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## pstarr (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm with DeLaMar...but remember, "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord."

And there's nothing as pleasing as doing the Lord's work...


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## Flying Crane (Aug 2, 2006)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> OK, if you're referring to the deal with your brother I have to say this - you have already taken the high ground by your actions to date (non-satisfying that they may be), so keep walking in the direction you are already going - *AWAY FROM IT!* If that means writing your brother out of your life then so be it. Having been through this I truly understand, and am telling you that IMHO you need to transform that anger into energy for your workouts. Take it out on the heavy bag. Best regards..........
> 
> *-GARRY*


 
I gotta agree with this.  If this is a family issue, definitely walk away from it.  let it go.


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 2, 2006)

Think about it from this angle:

If you stray from use of *defensive* violence and start your first step on the path to "Revenge", you lose your....for want of a better description, "Karmic Righteousness."--when you fight only when you have to, Karma has no quarrel with you, for the most part.

If you take it to the level of Revenge, remember that like attracts like and ( especially in the case of a gang mamber) it just gets worse, because now it's no longer baout "stopping a threat" or "staying safe" now you and the other guy and his who-only-knows how many FRIENDS, get caught up in the misplaced need to "win". 

If you take that FIRST step, you HAVE to be prepared to answer to yourself if you are prepared to take the FINAL step.

Are you, truly, honestly, prepared to take him, his friends, and any/all of his family who may come back on you for this and take them all out? Even if you somehow, in whatever way, manage to do this, Will the obvious repercussions be worth it to you? To the people in your life who care for you, or for whom you may be responsible? What will this do to you? What will this do to them?

If you cannot answer yourself that you are truly, honestly, prepared to take the FINAL step, don't even take the first.

Please consider it.


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 2, 2006)

Andy Moynihan said:
			
		

> Think about it from this angle:
> 
> If you stray from use of *defensive* violence and start your first step on the path to "Revenge", you lose your....for want of a better description, "Karmic Righteousness."--when you fight only when you have to, Karma has no quarrel with you, for the most part.
> 
> ...


 

Oh this old thread!  I'm Past it for the most part.  I'd still like to bust his face but it's not so constant and consuming.  It's come to this.. He is not my brother.  I have no room in my life for him.  My sister is the same way after he beat her up.  I hope that he suffers, and I hope that when he looks at his life and wishes he has family, he realises what an idiot he is.  But, I wouldn't count on it.


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## blackeye (Aug 13, 2006)

I diciplin my self in fighting to let my enemies know not to take me lightly, if they try to "destroy" me they will probably leave with a different perspective of me. "He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog!" is the principal of my religion and my will to fight, DeLamar.J knows what I mean judging by his sig.


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## heretic888 (Aug 14, 2006)

blackeye said:
			
		

> I diciplin my self in fighting to let my enemies know not to take me lightly, if they try to "destroy" me they will probably leave with a different perspective of me. "He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog!" is the principal of my religion and my will to fight, DeLamar.J knows what I mean judging by his sig.


 
And what "religion" is that??


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## blackeye (Aug 15, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> And what "religion" is that??



If you must know, it's satanism. Yes it is a real religion, please don't ask me to explain it. Just research it if you want to know.


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 15, 2006)

blackeye said:
			
		

> If you must know, it's satanism. Yes it is a real religion, please don't ask me to explain it. Just research it if you want to know.



You mean LaVeyism.  Yup I am versed in his works. I used to be a devout satanist  (yup it's true)  back in my early college years.  An eye for an eye, "strike back at your enemy twofold.. No, tenfold".  But even I, standing on the fence between Christianity and agnosticism know that isn't cool.  As an American it is my duty to respect satanism as a religeon.  That's all it gets from me.


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## blackeye (Aug 15, 2006)

Shaolinwind said:
			
		

> You mean LaVeyism



Never heard it called that before? I soppose he did modernise, but the religion isn't based on him so it's not LaVeyism.


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## heretic888 (Aug 15, 2006)

blackeye said:
			
		

> If you must know, it's satanism. Yes it is a real religion, please don't ask me to explain it. Just research it if you want to know.


 
I am familiar with the religion that Mr. LaVey began.

In all honesty, there is enough narcissistic and infantile ego-worship in the world today as is, that I really don't see the point in its existence. That, and there's the little wrinkle that it appears to have been designed to appeal to social outcasts and adolescent boys.

Don't get me wrong, I have some issues with Christianity, as well. But at least most Christians at least try to take a stab at morality and ethics, rather than inventing some pubescent fantasies to try to justify pronouncing to the world how awesome and important they are.

That's the fundamental divide between egocentrism and sociocentrism, I suppose.

Thanks, but no thanks.


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## hemi (Aug 15, 2006)

Nomad said:
			
		

> if someone were to seriously hurt or sexually assault my daughters, he'd better hope the police get to him before I did.


 

Amen brother, all I can say is Lord please forgive me. Ill leave it at that. :mp5:


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## blackeye (Aug 15, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I am familiar with the religion that Mr. LaVey began.
> 
> In all honesty, there is enough narcissistic and infantile ego-worship in the world today as is, that I really don't see the point in its existence. That, and there's the little wrinkle that it appears to have been designed to appeal to social outcasts and adolescent boys.
> 
> ...



Satanism when applied to most people is just doing what comes natural, yes it's guiltless self promotion but aside from you'r family is there realy anyone more important than yourself? Christianity is the ultimate in self deciet, I don't try to trick myself into thinking I can love everyone or that material things aren't important. Yes I desire power, I desire welth, but under the right circumstances so would most people even if they won't admit it. 

Morality is only judged by what the majority believes is right. If it's right to me then I consider it moral. Whatever comes natural is moral to me, sex before marriage, masturbation, violence, murder as revenge, ect. The strong will always survive and the feble will always perish no matter how much people decieve themselves into believing they deserve to exist.


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## JasonASmith (Aug 16, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Generally I feel vengeance is a bad thing, but with that being said, you hurt my wife or daughter I will drop you were you stand.


 
Absolutely, although I would add my son in there as well.
I also hope that the local fire department would have some kind of nuclear response unit, because there WOULD(absolutely would) be meltdown...ON EVERY LEVEL IMAGINABLE....:flammad: verkill:


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## heretic888 (Aug 16, 2006)

blackeye said:
			
		

> Satanism when applied to most people is just doing what comes natural, yes it's guiltless self promotion but aside from you'r family is there realy anyone more important than yourself? Christianity is the ultimate in self deciet, I don't try to trick myself into thinking I can love everyone or that material things aren't important. Yes I desire power, I desire welth, but under the right circumstances so would most people even if they won't admit it.
> 
> Morality is only judged by what the majority believes is right. If it's right to me then I consider it moral. Whatever comes natural is moral to me, sex before marriage, masturbation, violence, murder as revenge, ect. The strong will always survive and the feble will always perish no matter how much people decieve themselves into believing they deserve to exist.



So, in other words: Relativity Fallacy.

I'm a psychology major, blackeye, and trust me when I say that what you claim to be "natural" is, in fact, quite unnatural for most well-adjusted adults. In fact, you gave a pretty good description of preconventional or egocentric moral development, a la Lawrence Kohlberg's neo-Piegetian scheme of sociomoral perspective development. That is the stage of development appropriate for children and adolescents, but is rather pathological for most adults.

As I said before, designed for social outcasts and adolescent boys.

Laterz.


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## Monadnock (Aug 16, 2006)

blackeye said:
			
		

> Morality is only judged by *what the majority believes* is right. If it's *right to me* then I consider it moral.


 
So wait, you are the majority now??? I fail to see the logic.



			
				blackeye said:
			
		

> Whatever comes natural is moral to me, sex before marriage, masturbation, violence, murder as revenge, ect. The strong will always survive and the feble will always perish no matter how much people decieve themselves into believing they deserve to exist.


 
Again, how these two statements go together is completely rediculous. I'd like to hear your personal definitions on strong and feeble, but I'm sure it wouldn't help your case.


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