# Nike's "offensive" shoe, the black and tan...



## punisher73 (Mar 12, 2012)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/nike-black-tan-ireland-st-patricks-day-2012_n_1338975.html

Alot of the comments were regarding Nike "googling" the idea of the "black and tan" and doing their homework before naming the shoe.  Here in the US, the black and tan is a drink.  Is this a bigger deal than it is, or is it just a way to get media attention?


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2012)

Is it a big deal? Oh yes. The problem is that the Black and Tans are the enemy to half the Irish and heroes to the other half, you'd have people from one side taunting the other and them retaliating. Not just in Northern Ireland in Scotland too where several people have just been arrested for sending bombs to the Celtic Football Club's manager and others connected to them. This is a subject that is volatile at the best of times, Nike may be lighting the fuse on yet another powder keg.


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## Big Don (Mar 12, 2012)

The most offensive thing about that shoe? It is UGLY.


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## granfire (Mar 12, 2012)

So do they shoot black and tan dogs over there, too?

Sheesh....

On the other hand, the shoe is butt ugly...why not pull it, throw it on a container to be sold 2nd hand in Africa....like they do with the championship gear of the runner ups.....


But as being somewhere on the other side of the world (in more than one perspective) can the Irish of either side expect - or even demand - that the rest of the world is informed of such things? 

I mean, I guess now this infamous troop pops up in internet searches, but did it prior to that?

Asking here, not being a jerk (for a change)


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2012)

granfire said:


> So do they shoot black and tan dogs over there, too?
> 
> Sheesh....
> 
> ...




One of the reasons the Irish conflict has gone on for centuries is the Irish like the Scots hold grudges, they are passed on like family heirlooms. The Sicilians have nothing on them. Every person of Irish descent in the world knows about the Troubles, at least the side of it they are on, either the 'Prodddies' or the 'Fenians', each holds the other responsible for deaths that occured decades, centuries even ago so calling the shoes Black and Tans will upset the entire Irish community in many countries. Things that happened nearly a century ago are still held fresh in Irish minds as if it were yesterday so the force that was nicknamed the Black and Tans is still fresh in manys memories even if they weren't there! Like the fact that many places in Scotland won't employ a Campbell or allow them in the door even, this runs and runs and runs which is probably why Nike picked the name.


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## granfire (Mar 12, 2012)

And there I thought they just went out drinking when they came up with that ugly shoe....

Nothing like the heirloom conflict....


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## Carol (Mar 12, 2012)

granfire said:


> And there I thought they just went out drinking when they came up with that ugly shoe....



Thought the same thing....yikes...
There are two neighbouring towns in NH, Derry and Londonderry.   Worked in the vicinity for quite some time before realizing the significance of the names.  :s400:


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2012)

Carol said:


> Thought the same thing....yikes...
> There are two neighbouring towns in NH, Derry and Londonderry. Worked in the vicinity for quite some time before realizing the significance of the names. :s400:




In Northern Ireland it's the same place but depending on which side you are on depends on how you say it. For Protestants it's Londonderry, Catholics it's Derry. 
Wounds run deep in Irish hearts, we still have the bombings and the shootings but at long last there are rays of hope. It's like walking on eggshells though and Nike should really have looked it up, anywhere else perhaps it would just be history but Ireland...never.


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## crushing (Mar 12, 2012)

*"Nike Black And Tan: Footwear Giant Courts Controversey Naming Shoe After Force That Killed Irish Civilians"

*Did the author or editor give it that ridiculous and sensational headline, or was the marketing department trying to sell advertising impressions?  I highly doubt Nike was naming the shoe after the Black and Tans.

That said, Nike should have known better.  Ben & Jerry's named an ice cream for the drink a few years ago and ran into this same issue with a bunch of hypersensitive people that can't tell the difference between a drink and a British paramilitary unit.

This is publicity.  Maybe Nike gave HuffPo the headline and article?   :idunno:  There may be a significant number of people/consumers attracted to this product because of the controversy.


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2012)

Why would you name a shoe after a drink anyway, in fact why would you name a shoe? I suppose the sad fact is that whatever the shoe is called it will be made in a sweatshop in Asia, a good enough reason apart from a ridiculous name not to buy it.


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## granfire (Mar 12, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Why would you name a shoe after a drink anyway, in fact why would you name a shoe? I suppose the sad fact is that whatever the shoe is called it will be made in a sweatshop in Asia, a good enough reason apart from a ridiculous name not to buy it.



well, you gotta give your product a name, if for no other reason than that you have to be able to tell one from another without looking at the shoe.

That the shoes are made in Asia is another deal...sadly the top brand ones are probably rolling off the same belt as the store band ones...and at about the same cost.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2012)

Trainers I buy just have numbers. I know... 'I'm a shoe not a number'!


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## Carol (Mar 13, 2012)

Apparently its all about marketing.  According to an article the Irish Times ran on Saturday, Nike decided to name two shoes after beers in conjunction with a St. Patrick's Day release.  The other shoe was named "Guinness".   The local folks in Ireland believe that calling something a "Black and Tan" was an insensitive way to celebrate Irish-ness.  

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper...ref=.T15SVXTUhs4.like&fb_source=other_oneline

Personally I think beer is a rather silly concept for promoting athletic shoes...but that's just me.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2012)

granfire said:


> *So do they shoot black and tan dogs over there, too?
> *
> Sheesh....
> 
> ...




Dogs are shot yes, not just black and tan ones but it depends on who they belong to. The question usually is 'is it a Catholic dog or a Protestant dog' which ever, the other side will shoot it.I worked with an Irish regiment a long while ago, the joke with them about me was 'is she a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew'? Always comes down to that, nothing is excluded.


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## crushing (Mar 13, 2012)

I bought a box of crayons that had both black and tan crayons in it.  What the hell was Crayola thinking?!?!?!?!  



Carol said:


> Personally I think beer is a rather silly concept for promoting athletic shoes...but that's just me.



The only thing more silly than the naming concept in regards to this issue is the people that are unable to differentiate a drink from a paramilitary organization.  I have come to the conclusion that people just love to be outraged about silly things.  Maybe it is a way to avoid more serious matters?


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2012)

crushing said:


> I bought a box of crayons that had both black and tan crayons in it. What the hell was Crayola thinking?!?!?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing more silly than the naming concept in regards to this issue is the people that are unable to differentiate a drink from a paramilitary organization. I have come to the conclusion that people just love to be outraged about silly things. Maybe it is a way to avoid more serious matters?



It will be be silly to those who don't live in Ireland or are of Irish descent. Perhaps the nearest I could come to it for Americans would be a shoe named for a slave owner who was renown for his cruelty to slaves or perhaps someone who massacred Native Americans? Feelings run deep in Ireland and the North still isn't at peace, there's still bombings and shootings. A reminder of the Black and Tans is liable to stir a lot of feelings on both sides. Every year the Orange Lodges march, causing riots and deaths btw, to commemorate somthing that happened a lot further back in time than the Black and Tans.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4241058.stm


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## Big Don (Mar 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Why would you name a shoe after a drink anyway, in fact why would you name a shoe?


Because companies are made up of people and people, by and large are stupid?
Why would you make not one but, FOUR movies based on a Disneyland ride?


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## Carol (Mar 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It will be be silly to those who don't live in Ireland or are of Irish descent. Perhaps the nearest I could come to it for Americans would be a shoe named for a slave owner who was renown for his cruelty to slaves or perhaps someone who massacred Native Americans? Feelings run deep in Ireland and the North still isn't at peace, there's still bombings and shootings. A reminder of the Black and Tans is liable to stir a lot of feelings on both sides. Every year the Orange Lodges march, causing riots and deaths btw, to commemorate somthing that happened a lot further back in time than the Black and Tans.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4241058.stm




That's not a bad analogy -- we have a holiday in January named after Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  I think a good way of drawing a comparison would be like pushing a Martin Luther King Day promotion with a sneaker eponymous with a southern plantation.


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## crushing (Mar 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It will be be silly to those who don't live in Ireland or are of Irish descent. Perhaps the nearest I could come to it for Americans would be a shoe named for a slave owner who was renown for his cruelty to slaves or perhaps someone who massacred Native Americans? Feelings run deep in Ireland and the North still isn't at peace, there's still bombings and shootings. A reminder of the Black and Tans is liable to stir a lot of feelings on both sides. Every year the Orange Lodges march, causing riots and deaths btw, to commemorate somthing that happened a lot further back in time than the Black and Tans.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4241058.stm



Your try at an American comparison does remind me of this similar controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22


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## granfire (Mar 13, 2012)

crushing said:


> Your try at an American comparison does remind me of this similar controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_"niggardly"



Oh good god...when the uneducated people show their true color...no pun intended....

Especially bad when they are holding office....


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2012)

To be honest I couldn't think of an exact comparision, the problem with the Black and Tans is they are still heroes to one half and villians to the other. As I said when they are still commemorating battles fought in the 18th century etc there's little hope they won't remember the Black and Tans, to them it's recent history as there's still people who can remember them. The Troubles have been going on for centuries, it won't stop until people can put the past behind them but in Ireland the past is always there lurking and coming in to bite the unwary. 
From the Belfast Telegraph http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...n-trainers-slated-16129796.html#ixzz1oujwyW1O 

Look at the story underneath it too. It may give you an idea of what life is like there.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-me-because-i-married-a-catholic-16125176.htm


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## Carol (Mar 13, 2012)

There isn't a good parallel that I can think of either. Another interesting (to me, anyway) case where as much as we have in common, there are aspects to the cultures that are quite different.  

I have to admit, as a businessperson, I'm mildly fascinated by events such as these.   How and why do they happen, esp. in a global marketplace?  Crushing raises the idea of a manufactured controversy -- I actually think that is quite possible.

For one, there is historical precedence of what happens when the Black and Tan name gets used for a consumer product -- as seen with Ben and Jerry's ice cream

Next, The Black and Tans are heros to one half, villains to others....that's a great situation -- you only enrage part of the country, and the remainder you don't enrage will have loyalists who love your decision.

Also, the other shoe named in this beer pairing is "Guinness" -- another product's brand, and its monster of a brand to boot.  I cannot imagine Nike doing this without the appropriate attorneys vetting this out and money changing hands...either from Nike to Guinness for the use of their brand, or from Guinness to Nike for the advertising.

And finally -- we've all seen that controversy, viral videos, and similar acts can take a message much further and much faster than any advertising campaign...


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## granfire (Mar 13, 2012)

well, Rolls Royce scrapped theri naming of a new model to spare the feelings of a handful of German speaking customers....
Nobody would want to be caught driving around in what translates to 'Silver Manure' now, would they...no matter how exclusive!

But after the Ben and Jerry incident, I think you have to be a corporate Dummkopf not to see the problem. And they were strictly talking food...


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## jks9199 (Mar 13, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Because companies are made up of people and people, by and large are stupid?
> Why would you make not one but, FOUR movies based on a Disneyland ride?


Because people paid -- and paid LOTS! -- to see them.  And the residuals and other income continues to roll in...


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## crushing (Mar 13, 2012)

What should matter and apparently doesn't is the fact that the shoes weren't named for the paramilitary unit of a similar name to the drink for which they were named.


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2012)

crushing said:


> What should matter and apparently doesn't is the fact that the shoes weren't named for the paramilitary unit of a similar name to the drink for which they were named.



There's the fact too that black and tan the drink is actually from the UK mainland not Ireland where it wasn't drunk (nor is still) before the military unit arrived, one of the reasons they were called black and tans was the fact they were 'English'. The drink as much as the military unit is shunned. The name even before the army unit arrived was shunned.


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## granfire (Mar 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> There's the fact too that black and tan the drink is actually from the UK mainland not Ireland where it wasn't drunk (nor is still) before the military unit arrived, one of the reasons they were called black and tans was the fact they were 'English'. The drink as much as the military unit is shunned. The name even before the army unit arrived was shunned.



so the drink - under that name nobody likes - is named after a unit nobody likes...(well, some do like it...) 

So why name anything after it?

Never mind....logic defies the masses...

(and the shoe is STILL ugly!)


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## crushing (Mar 14, 2012)

granfire said:


> so the drink - under that name nobody likes - is named after a unit nobody likes...(well, some do like it...)
> 
> So why name anything after it?
> 
> ...




Incorrect. The drink name predates the British paramilitary group by decades.

Not only does logic defy the masses, apparently so do homonyms.


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## granfire (Mar 14, 2012)

crushing said:


> Incorrect. The drink name predates the British paramilitary group by decades.
> 
> Not only does logic defy the masses, apparently so do homonyms.



leave the gay people out of this!


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## Carol (Mar 14, 2012)

granfire said:


> so the drink - under that name nobody likes - is named after a unit nobody likes...(well, some do like it...)
> 
> So why name anything after it?
> 
> ...



It wasn't crafted after how the Irish celebrate St. Patrick's Day, it was crafted after how Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day.   The Black and Tan is a popular beer blend in U.S. Irish bars and most of the folks here aren't as fervent about politics or are willing to put them aside to raise a glass with friends.

Although, I have a nagging feeling that politics may outshine the  Boston celebrations this St. Paddy's.  I hope I am wrong.  

And yeah.  Damn ugly shoes


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## Carol (Mar 14, 2012)

granfire said:


> leave the gay people out of this!



Great.  Next thing you'll want to keep the homo sapiens out of it too


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2012)

crushing said:


> Incorrect. The drink name predates the British paramilitary group by decades.
> 
> Not only does logic defy the masses, apparently so do homonyms.





The drink does predate the unit but it's an English drink not an Irish one so therefore was shunned by the Irish nationalists anyway, the unit were called after the drink because nobody liked either.


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