# How long to receive blackbelt training full time in korea



## scott

Hi Hapkido practitioners,

Does anyone know a school in korea where it's posible to train full time and receive a black belt?
If so, does anyone know for how long one should train?

I know that a 1st degree  blackbelt is more or less considered a beginner, since grading is different in Korea compared to the west.

Please no replies about why I need information about this, or why I want to go to Korea and train. 

If anyone knows a school and have some information about this, then I'm very happy to hear from you. 

Should note that I'm not a beginner in martial arts, I'm 35 and have trained in other art before - and learned som hapkido for many years ago.

Thanks a lot,

Scott


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## Kong Soo Do

Hi Scott.  

I'm sure that you would find several Hapkido schools in Korea, depending upon the area/city.  As far as how long to earn a BB, that can really vary widely depending upon the school and/or organizational affiliation.  In all seriousness, I've seen the time frame of 'getting' (which may differ from earning) a BB in Hapkido from a single weekend all the way to five years (or more).  I think the key would be to find one that you feel meets the standards of what you're looking for and then giving it your best.


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## scott

Hi Kong Soo Do,

Thanks for your reply. I too have heard of people receiving blackbelts fast, but still a single weekend. OMG...That's terrible. I'm looking to spend around 4-6 month training full time there, to learn enough to be able to go back to my own country and open up a Dojang. There is very few hapkido dojangs where I'm from. My plan then would be to teach, train and go back to Korea at least once a year to continue study and become better. So want to spread the art here. 

Again thanks for for your reply, if anyone else knows of any dojangs that might offer what I am looking for, I will be happy to hear from you. 

Thanks,
Scott


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## Dirty Dog

scott said:


> Hi Kong Soo Do,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I too have heard of people receiving blackbelts fast, but still a single weekend. OMG...That's terrible. I'm looking to spend around 4-6 month training full time there, to learn enough to be able to go back to my own country and open up a Dojang. There is very few hapkido dojangs where I'm from. My plan then would be to teach, train and go back to Korea at least once a year to continue study and become better. So want to spread the art here.
> 
> Again thanks for for your reply, if anyone else knows of any dojangs that might offer what I am looking for, I will be happy to hear from you.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott



With this plan, I certainly hope you've got some prior training. Zero-to-hero programs rarely (if ever) produce good teachers. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone do such a thing in the martial arts, but I've seen it in two other areas in which I have some level of expertise. 
EMS - People go straight through EMT-Basic, intermediate and Paramedic school without any field experience along the way. These people universally scare me when they bring in patients.
Scuba diving - Tailand is notorious for running people straight through from 1st ever dive to "qualfied" instructor. As with EMS, their lack of experience results in some frightening "instructors".


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## MAist25

Hey, I would just like to point out that there really is no reason to go to Korea to train in a martial art. I am in Korea right now and martial arts training here is very focused on kids. Not too many adults train in martial arts here, it's seen as an activity for kids, more or less. Also, there are many quality Hapkido teachers right in the United States who are just as good at teaching Hapkido as the instructors here in Korea. The only difference is you will actually be able to understand them, which will actually benefit you even more than going to Korea, where you would have very limited communication with an instructor. My advice is if you are very set on learning Hapkido, find somewhere in the US to learn. I thought coming to Korea that I would be living any Taekwondo/Hapkido practitioners dream, but in reality it is not what you think. Martial arts are far more available to adults in the US with just as much quality as here in Korea. Also, you won't be able to earn a black belt in 4-6 months here or anywhere else. If you want to learn Hapkido to a standard where you are capable of opening up a quality dojang, you are going to have to plan on spending years earning the privilege of becoming a Hapkido instructor. That's just the way it is. There is no fast-forward mode.


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## kitkatninja

Kong Soo Do said:


> ...As far as how long to earn a BB, that can really vary widely depending upon the school and/or organizational affiliation.  In all seriousness, I've seen the time frame of 'getting' (which may differ from earning) a BB in Hapkido from a single weekend all the way to five years (or more).  I think the key would be to find one that you feel meets the standards of what you're looking for and then giving it your best.



I've seen stuff like that, however it's not a simple case of just earning a BB in a single weekend.  The one's I've seen you have to have a BB in a similar art (can't remember which one it was), then within that weekend, you'll cover the differences then go thru the BB exam at the end.  But back to the original question, that's like asking "how long is a piece of string".



MAist25 said:


> Hey, I would just like to point out that there really is no reason to go to Korea to train in a martial art...
> 
> ...Also, there are many quality Hapkido teachers right in the United States who are just as good at teaching Hapkido as the instructors here in Korea. The only difference is you will actually be able to understand them, which will actually benefit you even more than going to Korea, where you would have very limited communication with an instructor. My advice is if you are very set on learning Hapkido, find somewhere in the US to learn. I thought coming to Korea that I would be living any Taekwondo/Hapkido practitioners dream, but in reality it is not what you think. Martial arts are far more available to adults in the US with just as much quality as here in Korea. ...



Apart from wanting to train over there to train at a "birth place" of an art, I agree.  There are excellent Hapkido instructors and practitioners all around the world, not just in Korea.  However as Scott is going over anyway, good luck to him


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## Kong Soo Do

kitkatninja said:


> I've seen stuff like that, however it's not a simple case of just earning a BB in a single weekend. The one's I've seen you have to have a BB in a similar art (can't remember which one it was), then within that weekend, you'll cover the differences then go thru the BB exam at the end. But back to the original question, that's like asking "how long is a piece of string".



The one recently that was discussed required only a BB in TKD, the weekend seminar and of course a hefty testing fee on top of the seminar fee.  I do not personally consider TKD, as taught in the majority of schools, to be sufficent background to enable someone to train for and test for a BB in Hapkido.  And according to the flyer, a higher than 1st Dan was possible with just the weekend seminar.  Again, I don't consider this sufficent by any stretch of the imagination.


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## puunui

scott said:


> Does anyone know a school in korea where it's posible to train full time and receive a black belt? If so, does anyone know for how long one should train?



There are many hapkido dojang in korea. I know GM KIM Nam Jae accepts american students. Takes about one year to obtain 1st Dan in Korea. One year is the general standard for obtaining 1st Dan in almost any martial art in Korea, and has been for a long time.


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## Doomx2001

scott said:


> Hi Hapkido practitioners,
> 
> Does anyone know a school in korea where it's posible to train full time and receive a black belt?
> If so, does anyone know for how long one should train?
> 
> I know that a 1st degree  blackbelt is more or less considered a beginner, since grading is different in Korea compared to the west.
> 
> Please no replies about why I need information about this, or why I want to go to Korea and train.
> 
> If anyone knows a school and have some information about this, then I'm very happy to hear from you.
> 
> Should note that I'm not a beginner in martial arts, I'm 35 and have trained in other art before - and learned som hapkido for many years ago.
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Scott



I'm no expert, so take anything and everything I say with a grain a salt. But, I pretty much agree with most of what everyone has said here. I can't tell you anything about Korea other than what I've read, but I will say this, it might do you some good to train in Yong Sul Kwan Hapkiyusul and Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido. Both of these styles were started by men who trained under Grandmaster Choi Yong Sul, and both are said to teach exactly what GM Choi taught. It would be good for you to see what GM Choi's Hapkido is like compared to other Hapkido styles. Also, traveling to Korea could help you understand Korean Martial Arts a little better as well as be an awesome vacation.

Depending on the school in Korea, you might be able to get a black belt in two years or less if you train about *5 or 6 days a week*. Most schools in Korea are probably more like the U.S where you train twice a week. In a U.S traditional martial art school, you can earn a black belt on average a minium of 5 years with serious training and dedication. However, most traditional martial arts it can take about 10 years before your earn your black belt. But hey, what a black belt you would be! I wouldn't be to keen to punch a person that got their black belt after 10 years of training, LOL! 

On the idea that in the United States that grading is different and that after getting a black belt, it is seen as the end all of learning, nothing could be further from the truth. You have to separate the McDojangs from the Traditional schools. In ALL traditional schools, getting your black belt is seen as the beginning of real learning. After learning all the basics and fundamentals of your art, regardless of style, you then truly start to understand what you've been taught, and its a never ending learning process that continues to the grave. 
Karate people will tell you this, Hapkido people will tell you this, TaekwonDo people will tell you this....etc. 
McDojangs on the other hand, are more concerned with profit, and nothing else. They've learned that Americans are goal oriented people, that we measure success by materialistic possessions (belts and certificates) and not by knowledge. This isn't true in all cases, but more often that not this turns out to be the case. So don't lump in McDojangs with true Traditional schools. You can find great traditional martial art schools throughout the country. 

Also, I applaud your efforts to teach what you might learn in Korea because sharing knowledge is a wonderful thing. But I do so with extreme caution as well. Hapkido, more so than the MAJORITY of martial arts out there, has so much too it, that the idea of teaching what you learned after 4 or 5 months might not be such a good idea. I understand that the idea is to go back every year to learn in Korea to continue your education, but teaching that way might not produce good results. It may depend on your approach. If you take the Bruce Lee approach, maybe. Maybe. 

Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun. He didn't even learn all of the art. He studied maybe 1 year with his teacher. He also learned Western Boxing while in China. When he came to U.S he continued to study martial arts and refined what he knew. He started teaching sometime around 1959 about 5 years later after his studies with Ip Man. What Lee taught was things he learned from *sparring, and from real street fights.* *He didn't give out rank as far as I know of, but instead, after years of training, made people instructors. *Bruce Lee also trained *EVERYDAY*. 

Which brings me to my original point. If you choose to teach after 4 or 5 months of training, you can't morally and responsibly give out rank (which I'm not saying that you would do that, I'm just mentioning for the sake of this discussion). And especially teach what you might not be able to back up. Bruce Lee was prepared to 'back up' what he taught with a drop of hat. That is the way all old school traditional instructor were. Shotokan's Gichin Funakoshi was that way, as well as many other Karate pioneers. In fact, those old Karate masters even won over students by defending their right to teach, in a fight, with a challenger in which if they lost, the challenger takes the dojo banner home with him. More often than not, the challenger was beaten, and then begged to become a student. 

There is something else to look at as well. As I mentioned earlier, there is alot too Hapkido. There are things that you might teach now about Hapkido, and then a year later, you realize just how sloppy what you taught was. And here is your students a year later, all doing sloppy techniques with either poor posture, bad body mechanics, unrealistic training habits or maybe a combination of all three. And it is hard to break bad habits. People will judge you by your students. Not only that, they will judge the martial art you teach by your students as well. Sometimes all it takes is for one unrealistic exchange between two Hapkido students to send any future potentional students out the door to train at a local MMA gym. 
If you notice, about half of the McDojangs in the U.S the instructors don't mention what rank they are because in some cases, they were certified to teach some thrown together martial art through a dvd distance learning course that they learned about 3 or 4 months. These people often teach sloppy technique, pass out belts, and do cardio kick boxing for the sake of an easy buck.

I also want to point out, that I'm not being judgemental when I say these things or trying to paint you in a negative context. I'm just trying to give you 'food for thought'. And also, make you aware of how 5 months worth of training could impact your potentional future students. 
Hapkido is a very rewarding martial art, and one that can keep giving for the rest of your life. I would recommend that you train at a U.S Hapkido Dojang to keep your skills polished for whenever you make your trips back and forth to Korea. You will know when you find a good Hapkido school because you will 'feel' it. And I don't mean that in a good way! If it don't hurt, its not Hapkido. 

In summary I think:

* You should check out Yong Sul Kwan Hapkido http://www.hapkiyusul.com/eng/introdu.htm, and Jung Ki Kwan Hapkido.http://www.jungkikwan.com/

* Find a good school in the U.S to train at when your not training in Korea. Me or somebody here at the forum can give you a list of schools to check out in your area if you feel comfortable saying what state and city you live in. 

* You should probably wait until your instructor thinks your ready to teach insuring your skills represent Hapkido acurately and that what you teach is good technique and not sloppy technique.

* Take lots of pictures, videos, and notes! You will cherish them. 

* And have fun (that goes without saying). 


I wish you the best, and I hope your Hapkido training goes really well, and you have a safe travel. Let us know how it goes, and keep us posted on your progress.


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## scott

Thank you all for your thoughts and replies, it's all very appreciated! And Doomx2001, a deep thanks for writing this very long post, it must have taken you a lot of time and thoughts to reply, thank you. I will definitely look into the two links that you posted to see the two styles.

I can see from the posts, that I didn't make myself as clear as I would have liked to, sorry about that.

But the thing is this: I don't live in US, I live in Europe, in a country with very few hapkido schools around. I love martial art training, and have been training since I was 12. I did do a bit of Hapkido when I was around 18, two years on/off. Today I teach a different martial art style, an internal chinese style. 

I have no intention to become a "from zero to hero" blackbelt, not at all. What I am looking for though, is a serious martial art school where I can study full time, and I might be naive, but training full time 4-6 month, should be equal as several years training where you can train 2-3 days a week - but that's my opinion of course. 

The whole black belt thing, well I have heard that in Korea, when you are a 1st degree blackbelt - you are just considered a beginner. But still, you can teach what you have learned and that's my goal. To reach a status where I'm actually good enough, I know I'm not the best, but good enough, and knowledgable enough, to spread the art of Hapkido in my country, and to share and teach what I have learned, altogether while I myself is getting better, and continuing my study with my affiliated dojang in Korea.

I know Hapkido has a lot to offer - thats my interest in the first place.  There is so many beautiful things that true martial arts has to offer, especially when you know how to cut through the bull... And if you can work with that, play with that, and show that to other people - that is a gift.

Sorry for this long post, and again thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread, I just joined recently, and I feel that you are genuine and really serious about helping me out, giving me you best advises, and I'm deeply thankful for this!

Scott


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## Royers

I would think at the very least it would afford you enough training to go back to your home country and start a Hapkido study group with anyone who's interested in learning it.  Informal kind of think kind of like some Daito-Ryu guys will do here in the States where you can't really find any DRAJJ schools.  As you continue to progress your training you can worry about opening dojangs later on down the road when you have more time and grade in Hapkido.


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## Doomx2001

What style of Kung fu or Wushu do you study Scott? You know, your interpretation of Hapkido techniques will be real interesting with your 'internal' background as most Hapkido styles stress the internal element in Hapkido such as Ki exercises, breathing, and meditation. You probably will pick up on alot of the subtleties alot quicker because of your back ground in internal arts. 

Maybe you could add to your list of Hapkido like styles to check out in Korea, Kuk Sool or Kuk Sool Won since it incorporates kung fu with Hapkido. Its three main animal styles within it are Mantis, Tiger, and Crane.
Are you excited about your trip? I know I would be!


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## Doomx2001

This might be useful to your trip to Korea:


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## oftheherd1

scott said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts and replies, it's all very appreciated! And Doomx2001, a deep thanks for writing this very long post, it must have taken you a lot of time and thoughts to reply, thank you. I will definitely look into the two links that you posted to see the two styles.
> 
> I can see from the posts, that I didn't make myself as clear as I would have liked to, sorry about that.
> 
> But the thing is this: I don't live in US, I live in Europe, in a country with very few hapkido schools around. I love martial art training, and have been training since I was 12. I did do a bit of Hapkido when I was around 18, two years on/off. Today I teach a different martial art style, an internal chinese style.



As a biginner, I personally wouldn't worry about trying to learn more than one style. Pick one you think offers what you want to learn, or that is available to you.



scott said:


> I have no intention to become a "from zero to hero" blackbelt, not at all. What I am looking for though, is a serious martial art school where I can study full time, and I might be naive, but training full time 4-6 month, should be equal as several years training where you can train 2-3 days a week - but that's my opinion of course.



My guess is that it will be hard for you to find a school that is open and teaching all day. Most teach in the evening as that is when most students are available. But you can always look. I don't know how long you studied before, or to what level. But it will probably be hard to learn much from trying to study 4 to 6 hours a day at first. You may well be different, but I never felt so uncoordinated in my life as when I began studying Hapkido. But my school was a little different in that we learned 3 new techniques everytime we were at the dojang. That was because most Americans were only there for a year. If there was to be any hope of learning and earning a BB in that time, it had to be that way. I learned on an American military area.

In the schools in the Korean community, I was told they only teach one technique at a time and don't go to another one until your teacher thinks you have properly mastered the last one taught. Another reason why thinking to spend 4-6 hours in the dojang is going to be beneficial at the beginning, may not be so.



scott said:


> The whole black belt thing, well I have heard that in Korea, when you are a 1st degree blackbelt - you are just considered a beginner. But still, you can teach what you have learned and that's my goal. To reach a status where I'm actually good enough, I know I'm not the best, but good enough, and knowledgable enough, to spread the art of Hapkido in my country, and to share and teach what I have learned, altogether while I myself is getting better, and continuing my study with my affiliated dojang in Korea.



I think that most people consider a 1st BB to have a long road in front of them. But the Hapkido I learned was not just, 'OK, you can now start to really learn what you thought you already learned.' We continued to learn new techniques from 1st dan to 2nd, and then from 2nd to 3rd. I am told it was the same from 3rd to 4th, but have no personal experience in it. No repeats or this is what you should have learned when you learned this. You can teach what you learned if you have truely learned it well. But I just don't know if you will find in Korea, a school that will teach you the way you wanted. I was allowed after a short while to train as often as I wanted. So I trained 5 to 6 days a week. But in my case, that was only one training session a day. I had a job and a family to share time with.

FWIW, I understand that in Korea, at least from a TKD student I knew, at the 3rd BB level, a student would be encouraged to learn another art to BB level. Then the student could decide if they wanted to stay with the new art, or seek still another, or return to their first art and continue to Master level or beyond. That is one of the reasons you often find Korean teachers with more than one MA BB.

If you intend to teach when you return to your country, I think a club type arrangement would be a good idea. No claims to teach to BB level, just teach what you know to those interested, so they know and you keep in practice. Just be sure what you teach you do know well. And from what you have posted, I think you will.



scott said:


> I know Hapkido has a lot to offer - thats my interest in the first place. There is so many beautiful things that true martial arts has to offer, especially when you know how to cut through the bull... And if you can work with that, play with that, and show that to other people - that is a gift.



I don't know of any bull to get past in the Hapkido I learned. I hope you have the same experience.



scott said:


> Sorry for this long post, and again thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread, I just joined recently, and I feel that you are genuine and really serious about helping me out, giving me you best advises, and I'm deeply thankful for this!
> 
> Scott



Most people in MT do like their art, and are willing to share.

How far have you gotten in your planning? Have you considered where you will stay? You may be able to rent a room from someone, stay in a chul (temple), yo in suk (low class inn), yo-kwan (higher style inns, some equivalent to hotels, but cheaper), or a Hotel (usually very expensive). Have you picked an area? Close to military bases will get you more students that speak English, so probably a teacher that also knows English. 

Learning Hapkido in a Korean dojang that normally only teaches Korean speakers is possible, but will be much more difficult due to the language barrier. Knowing Korean should help you during your initial stay, and subsequent stays as well. 

Oh, near an American base, you may also have more access to western style food more often. Are you familiar with Korean food? My wife is Korean and I very much like Korean food. Not all westerners do. Most Americans, if they eat anything, only eat Bulgogi, Chap chae bap, and yaki mandu. They can't get past the smell to try kimchi. Can you? Do you like fish soup for breakfast?  Can you eat tuen jang soup?  Do you know what it is?  The first time my wife cooked that with my sainted mother around, she came to the kitchen with a pained expression of wonder on her face, asked what 'that' smell was, and asked in dismay if people really ate that.

Do you intend to try and work? That will be difficult due to Korean law. You may be able to get around the law, but being caught doing so can be unpleasant to say the least.

Just some things for you to think about.


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## scott

@oftheherd,

Appreciate your efforts on having me thinking about a lot of things that many people who wishes to travel to the east really don't give much thoughts, even though it's very very important.

I took a 6 month travel to China, to spend time learning a martial art there. I really underestimated how different things are in the east at that time, and the picture I had about going to China to learn from a great master, didn't turn out the way I thought it would..It seldom does though, when having expectations..

Without going to deep into things, I can just say that I really wasn't mature and prepared enough for the culture differences and I honestly got a big schock, finding that out. But I had a fantastic time after I got through my struggles, and now I frequently go back to China, to train with my master.

So, yes I know that especially food can be a big surprise to anyone travelling to asia. Thankfully, I have always been an adventurer, also when it comes to food. And have tried many things that I really didn't think I would have ever eaten. One thing I never get use to though is Silkworms - they are just plain nasty 



oftheherd1 said:


> If you intend to teach when you return to your country, I think a club type arrangement would be a good idea. No claims to teach to BB level, just teach what you know to those interested, so they know and you keep in practice. Just be sure what you teach you do know well. And from what you have posted, I think you will.



This is truly golden words - in which I agree totally. I do belive, and that is of course just opinion, that in order to be abe to teach, you need to be a black belt in order to be taken seriously. In my world there is a huge difference in being a blackbelt, teaching what you know in a respectful and humble way, and never claim to be, teach or doing, anything you can't do. 

I have been doing martial arts for around 20 years now, with 2-3 years of Hapkido when I was around 18 - so even though I haven't done much hapkido, I still don't consider me a complete beginner and I know that I will be able to pick up things fairly quick. I still have the basic nakbup under my skin including  kongjoon hoejun (areo-fall), I just haven't practiced it regularly. 

I have talked to a school, where you can go for 3 months to train full time, and that should be enough time to receive an official black belt from the Korean Hapkido Federation. I have done some browsing on the the internet, and I can only find that this is one of the major and recognized organizations, so that must be legit as far I can tell, but if anyone has any information about the Korea hapkido federation, please let med know. 

3 months may seem like a short time, but knowing that in Korea the 1st blackbelt is still considered a beginner, I can see why this is possible.




> How far have you gotten in your planning? Have you considered where you will stay? You may be able to rent a room from someone, stay in a chul (temple), yo in suk (low class inn), yo-kwan (higher style inns, some equivalent to hotels, but cheaper), or a Hotel (usually very expensive). Have you picked an area? Close to military bases will get you more students that speak English, so probably a teacher that also knows English.




I haven't planned my stay yet, but it will be around february/march next year. So I have plenty of time to plan my trip and find the right place for me.



> I don't know of any bull to get past in the Hapkido I learned. I hope you have the same experience.



No, me neither, not in Hapkido, and that's fantastic!

@Doomx2001:  Thanks for the video, that is food for thought. I never thought about learning just so few phrases, but it make sense dosen't it. I know its important to know basic language, based on my trips to China, it just makes things so much easier.

You asked about the chinese style - it's called Yiquan, and you can get some impressions about the art from this link:






This is from a polish group ging to China training. It gives you a good impression on the different aspects of Yiquan.

Thanks,

Scott


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## kitkatninja

scott said:


> ...I have talked to a school, where you can go for 3 months to train full time, and that should be enough time to receive an official black belt from the Korean Hapkido Federation. I have done some browsing on the the internet, and I can only find that this is one of the major and recognized organizations, so that must be legit as far I can tell, but if anyone has any information about the Korea hapkido federation, please let med know.
> 
> 3 months may seem like a short time, but knowing that in Korea the 1st blackbelt is still considered a beginner, I can see why this is possible....



Good luck with that, while the "standard norm" is approx 4 years to gain the first black belt, there are people that have gained black belts  in less time than that, for instance:

Joe Lewis with Shorin-ryu Karate - under a year
Hirokazu Kanazawa with Shotokan Karate - 2 years

No idea about the Korea Hapkido Federation, as I have only started learning about Korean martial arts (TSD) earlier this year.  Hopefully someone with specific knowledge will be along shortly.


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## Royers

3 months sounds way too fast even with 6-7 day training weeks training all day.  That's not much more time than would afford regurgitating 10 kuebs of material, and definitely not enough time to really internalize and polish what you have learned.  My kwan was affiliated with the KHF up until a couple of years ago, and the average for us is around 5 years.  My instructor has mentioned someone who reached 1st Dan as quickly as 2 years coming 5x a week, and spending most of the day in the dojang training and helping instruct kids classes.  We will spend 4-6 months with maybe 20 techniques, a few kicks, and breakfalls (1 kueb worth of techniques) in our school.


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## scott

Royers, 

That's what have said since the first post. Things are different in Asia, and they don't value the 1st black belt as anything special. That's what I have heard anyway.

I also know that this is the case with Japan. One American I know got a black belt in aikido after some months training.

I think perhaps they see it more as you have some skill and that you are able to teach what you know, spread the art and continue learning and mastering what you have learned. So I don't really think you can compare this to situation in US or Europe.

scott


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## oftheherd1

Royers said:


> *3 months sounds way too fast even with 6-7 day training weeks training all day.* That's not much more time than would afford regurgitating 10 kuebs of material, and definitely not enough time to really internalize and polish what you have learned. My kwan was affiliated with the KHF up until a couple of years ago, and the average for us is around 5 years. My instructor has mentioned someone who reached 1st Dan as quickly as 2 years coming 5x a week, and spending most of the day in the dojang training and helping instruct kids classes. We will spend 4-6 months with maybe 20 techniques, a few kicks, and breakfalls (1 kueb worth of techniques) in our school.



I would agree with 3 months being too little time if you were a beginner.  Depending on how much you learned in your previous studies and your grade, perhaps you could acheive that.



scott said:


> Royers,
> 
> That's what have said since the first post. Things are different in Asia, and they don't value the 1st black belt as anything special. That's what I have heard anyway.
> 
> I also know that this is the case with Japan. One American I know got a black belt in aikido after some months training.
> 
> I think perhaps they see it more as you have some skill and that you are able to teach what you know, spread the art and continue learning and mastering what you have learned. So I don't really think you can compare this to situation in US or Europe.
> 
> scott



I'm not so sure 1st degree isn't considered an accomplishment in Korea.  I think it is.  Not so much as 2nd, or 3rd, etc.  But then maybe the level of expected knowledge is a little greater.  I could be wrong, but at least many years ago, I think the same would apply to Japan.  Now, I have no idea in either country.  China, at least Kung Fu, from what I have seen and heard, is different.  There was a school which sometimes shared training space with us when I was in Korea, and they did not have a belt ranking system.

I cannot tell you the current status of The Korean Hapkido Federation.  Nor of any body that calls itself that, nor any other Hapkido body.  I studied in a Kwan under the Korean Hapkido Federation, and my cards say that; Tae Han HapKiDo Hyup Hwae.  But my certificates say Korean Hapkido Association.   I just always assumed that was differences in translation.  The reason I can't tell you of the current status is that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Hapkido_Federation shows the symbol we wore on our uniforms, and was on our cards and certificates.  That also shows my Kwan, Soong Moo Kwan.

However, http://www.koreanhapkidofederation.com/ is a teacher in Maryland who purports to be the founder of The Korean Hapkido Federation, and on that site, seems to offer a master certificate (for a one time fee and training), that can result in a Hapkido rank dependent your rank in another martial art.  A little suspicious to me.  And he seems to have a much different patch/symbol.  Maybe Mr. Sullivan or other MA on this forum knows of this school/federation and can comment.

Nonetheless, I salute you for your interest in hapkido, and intense desire to learn such that you are willing to travel to, and live in Korea to do so.


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## scott

It's the first one that you link to, this School is associated with.

I did read some bad things about the President of the other association that you link to, that he got all his rank removed from where he was before. 

I could have been on this forum, I'm not sure.

And yes, I'm enthusiastic and determined to do this. And even though this thread has been a lot about getting a black belt, it's not so much about this, more about being able to learn, share and teach and art that is not so common where from. I would like to have more people recognize it as a good and interesting martial art, and of course I'm interested in diving into it and learn what I can about it. Life is an adventure, and it takes you to places in your life, and I know that hapkido is something on path that I really want to explore.


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## Instructor

I say go on your Korean adventure, have fun, learn things.  Hapkido is a blast regardless of what gup/dan you might attain you will definitely learn something.  Oh and write us once in awhile and share your experiences!


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## Royers

scott said:


> Royers,
> 
> That's what have said since the first post. Things are different in Asia, and they don't value the 1st black belt as anything special. That's what I have heard anyway.
> 
> I also know that this is the case with Japan. One American I know got a black belt in aikido after some months training.
> 
> I think perhaps they see it more as you have some skill and that you are able to teach what you know, spread the art and continue learning and mastering what you have learned. So I don't really think you can compare this to situation in US or Europe.
> 
> scott



I think I can compare this to the situation as found in the US and Europe on account of the fact that these large organizations are the closest thing Hapkido has to quality control.  They are global, and they maintain a certain standard for every school under that organization.  Our kwan (being affiliated with the KHF for many years) has the same requirements whether we study here or there.

That being said, for the sake of argument, you do manage to accomplish making it to 1st Dan within 3-4 months while training over there you would have to consider how that would appear to a prospective student.  I know that I would be very skeptical about someone's claim of making it to 1st Dan in 3-4 months, and if I was inquiring about studying with them once I was made aware of that I would politely thank them for their time and be on my way.  

I'm by no means trying to discourage you from your goals, and wish you a safe and fruitful trip.  Train as much as you can, soak in as much as you can, and keep us posted.  I'm definitely quite jealous.


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## scott

That is quite interesting..so if you came to school, and the teacher was a really good and competent one, which you could really learn a lot from, and then because you found out that he received a black belt after a full time training for 3-4 months, then you wouldn't train with him anymore? 

Isn't that a bit silly? Shouldn't it based on skill and character instead of time really? I know it would look for skill and character first..

When you think about it. Training 3-4 months fully time in Korea, where your only focus and goal is to train hapkido everyday 24/7. That would equal a few years normal training in the west, if not more. In that sense I believe it's possible an don't see it as a bad thing.

Anyway, I go there for the experience and for the fun in the first place. And keeping an open mind to things has always been important to me. Who knows what will happen..

scott


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## WaterGal

I do know one guy that trained really intensely and got his 1st degree in HKD in like 6 months, but he's also a 6th degree in TKD and I think has some MMA or wrestling experience. If you don't have that kind of foundation, I don't think it would be possible.  (Oh, and this all was in the US, not Korea.)


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## oftheherd1

Instructor said:


> I say go on your Korean adventure, have fun, learn things.  Hapkido is a blast regardless of what gup/dan you might attain you will definitely learn something.  Oh and write us once in awhile and share your experiences!



Can't argue with that!


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## oftheherd1

scott said:


> That is quite interesting..so if you came to school, and the teacher was a really good and competent one, which you could really learn a lot from, and then because you found out that he received a black belt after a full time training for 3-4 months, then you wouldn't train with him anymore?
> 
> Isn't that a bit silly? Shouldn't it based on skill and character instead of time really? I know it would look for skill and character first..
> 
> When you think about it. Training 3-4 months fully time in Korea, where your only focus and goal is to train hapkido everyday 24/7. That would equal a few years normal training in the west, if not more. In that sense I believe it's possible an don't see it as a bad thing.
> 
> Anyway, I go there for the experience and for the fun in the first place. And keeping an open mind to things has always been important to me. Who knows what will happen..
> 
> scott



A Hapkido BB in 3-4 months, from scratch, would indeed have me thinking.  Part of any martial art is repeditive training.  I would think that would be hard to do in 3-4 months.  However, you state you have had, I think, 2 years of prior HKD training?  That might make it possible.

But as you said, BB isn't your goal, just something that would be icing on the cake of your acquiring new skills, and experiencing Korea.  Go for it, and do keep us posted of your impressions, progress, and enjoyment or otherwise.


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## Jimsinkorea

scott said:


> Hi Hapkido practitioners,
> 
> Does anyone know a school in korea where it's posible to train full time and receive a black belt?
> If so, does anyone know for how long one should train?
> 
> I know that a 1st degree  blackbelt is more or less considered a beginner, since grading is different in Korea compared to the west.
> 
> Please no replies about why I need information about this, or why I want to go to Korea and train.
> 
> If anyone knows a school and have some information about this, then I'm very happy to hear from you.
> 
> Should note that I'm not a beginner in martial arts, I'm 35 and have trained in other art before - and learned som hapkido for many years ago.
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Scott



It took my 6 year old son 11 months to get his black belt in Korea going 5 times a week.  You are correct, a 1st degree black belt in Korea is really just a start, it takes about another year to move up to 2nd degree.  As you may or may not know, Confucianism is a part of everyday society in Korea so the instructors standing within the Hapkido organization is important.  If you are still considering this move, I would suggest you go to a black belt test day, which are held 4 times a year in Busan, a city at the bottom south of South Korea, to get a feel for what martial arts in Korea is like.


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## oftheherd1

Jimsinkorea said:


> It took my 6 year old son 11 months to get his black belt in Korea going 5 times a week. You are correct, a 1st degree black belt in Korea is really just a start, it takes about another year to move up to 2nd degree. As you may or may not know, Confucianism is a part of everyday society in Korea so the instructors standing within the Hapkido organization is important. If you are still considering this move, I would suggest you go to a black belt test day, which are held 4 times a year in Busan, a city at the bottom south of South Korea, to get a feel for what martial arts in Korea is like.



That's interesting.  When I was there, tests for at least those in the northern part of South Korea, were held periodically in Seoul, at the headquarters of the Korean Hapkido Federation/Association.  Have the moved, or are you talking about only the federation/association you/your son studied under?


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## Kong Soo Do

Jimsinkorea said:


> It took my 6 year old son 11 months to get his black belt in Korea going 5 times a week.  You are correct, a 1st degree black belt in Korea is really just a start, it takes about another year to move up to 2nd degree.  As you may or may not know, Confucianism is a part of everyday society in Korea so the instructors standing within the Hapkido organization is important.  If you are still considering this move, I would suggest you go to a black belt test day, which are held 4 times a year in Busan, a city at the bottom south of South Korea, to get a feel for what martial arts in Korea is like.



If I'm reading this correctly, your son could be a black belt (or is a black belt) at age 7?  And could be (or is already) a 2nd degree black belt at the age of 8?  Did I read this correctly?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Jimsinkorea said:
> 
> 
> 
> It took my 6 year old son 11 months to get his black belt in Korea going 5 times a week.  You are correct, a 1st degree black belt in Korea is really just a start, it takes about another year to move up to 2nd degree.  As you may or may not know, Confucianism is a part of everyday society in Korea so the instructors standing within the Hapkido organization is important.  If you are still considering this move, I would suggest you go to a black belt test day, which are held 4 times a year in Busan, a city at the bottom south of South Korea, to get a feel for what martial arts in Korea is like.
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm reading this correctly, your son could be a black belt (or is a black belt) at age 7?  And could be (or is already) a 2nd degree black belt at the age of 8?  Did I read this correctly?
Click to expand...

Based on this,


Scott said:


> I know that a 1st degree  blackbelt is more or less considered a beginner


Which has been said many times here over the years by different people,

This,



MAist25 said:


> Not too many adults train in martial arts here,* it's seen as an activity for kids*, more or less.


and this,



puunui said:


> There are many hapkido dojang in korea. I know GM KIM Nam Jae accepts american students. Takes about one year to obtain 1st Dan in Korea. *One year is the general standard for obtaining 1st Dan in almost any martial art in Korea, and has been for a long time. *


yes, you are reading that correctly.  This assessment of martial arts in Korea has been almost universal from people who have actually trained there.  I am not getting into whether or not it is good or bad; it is apparently the culture there.  

Personally, I don't care what a particular school does with regards to black belt requirements so long as they're consistent about it; if black belt is a token for completing the basic class, then don't hold your ildans up as Chuck Norris clones.  

If you're using belts as part of competition bracketing and are heavily involved in the sportive element of your art (whatever it is, and if it even has one), then connect promotion to ildan with competition (some schools do require you to be competing in order to grade for ildan/shodan).

If black belt is a token for advanced and highly skilled students, then don't promote people who aren't advanced or highly skilled.  In that scenario, you should probably avoid promoting eight year olds to ildan as well.

Whatever it is you're doing, just be honest and up front about it.  If you are doing that, then I will respect your promotion methodology.  

However, if you're using ildan/shodan as a means of raking in extra cash, it will be obvious to anyone who visits your school and word will get around.  Then it doesn't matter what you say your promotion methodology is, as you've already undermined your credibility.


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## oftheherd1

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ...
> yes, you are reading that correctly. This assessment of martial arts in Korea has been almost universal from people who have actually trained there. I am not getting into whether or not it is good or bad; it is apparently the culture there.
> 
> ...



I can only comment on what it was like in my school in the mid-80s. Not many people could get a black belt in one year. It was possible if you went at least 5 times a week on the military post. You would be taught 3 new techniques every class. You would be drilled on the ones previously taught as well. Before being tested, you would go over all techniques until the teacher felt you knew the techniques, and could do them correctly. It still wasn't easy, and even those who came regularly weren't guanteeded earning a black belt in a year. But it could be done.

At the black belt level, you were expected to be at a very effective self defense level. Granted, you had lots to learn if you decided to continue. But you weren't going to be a limp-wristed uncoordinated fool either (I felt like one when I started though). 

That was the way GM Jhoon Goo Rhee taught in the mid-60s as well. Whatever the requirements were for passing a belt test, you had to meet them or you wouldn't be promoted just for longevities sake. You could test every quarter if you wished, until you passed, but it seemed he would let you know when he thought you could pass. 

My Hapkido GM, and as far as I know, all others, would never send a person to a BB test unless they were confident that student would pass. It just wasn't done. It would be embarrassing and undignified.

Children off post were seen in dojangs, and in fact, at younger ages than normal for Japan I was told. It was not uncommon for teens and young adults to study, but I think many did not progress beyond BB. Perhaps things have changed, or we are all just judging Korea by where we were at some point in time.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Not having trained in Korea ever, I cannot comment one way or the other.  Only that people such as Puunui, Jameseu, and others who have trained in Korea have given almost identical assessments of how it is, and apparently has been, for at least ten to twenty years.

I don't think it matters in the sense of, 'if they do it we should do it,' but I think that when we talk about how high and mighty a black belt in a Korean art is or should be, if the folks back in Korea are treating it as essentially a beginner who has learned the basics, we should take notice and consider the idea that it may be *us* who are out of sync on the issue.

As I said previously, I don't really care what (the general) you wants to do, so long as you're honest about it and aren't using it as means of gouging more money from students who are nearing the end of their contract.


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## oftheherd1

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not having trained in Korea ever, I cannot comment one way or the other. Only that people such as Puunui, Jameseu, and others who have trained in Korea have given almost identical assessments of how it is, and apparently has been, for at least ten to twenty years.
> 
> I don't think it matters in the sense of, 'if they do it we should do it,' but I think that when we talk about how high and mighty a black belt in a Korean art is or should be, if the folks back in Korea are treating it as essentially a beginner who has learned the basics, we should take notice and consider the idea that it may be *us* who are out of sync on the issue.
> 
> As I said previously, I don't really care what (the general) you wants to do, so long as you're honest about it and aren't using it as means of gouging more money from students who are nearing the end of their contract.



I understand all that.  Apparently things have changed in Korea.  That was why I made sure to mention the time frames for teaching while I was there.  I think it is very difficult to attain a Hapkido BB in one year, or I guess I should say, it was when I was there.  It takes a lot of commitment and an agreeable teacher.  AFIK, my GM's son still doesn't push out BBs here in the States.  In those schools that generally only have a student for a couple of nights a week, it would seem impossible to acheive a BB in a year.  At least as I was taught in both TKD and HKD.  But that was a long time ago.

I would just not have any confidence in a student who acheived one in a year with only two sessions a week.  There may be exceptions, but I would be surprised nonetheless.


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## dancingalone

I'm just curious who are these people who attained an aikido BB in one year in Japan.  Did they attend a senshusei course in Tokyo or what?


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I'm just curious who are these people who attained an aikido BB in one year in Japan.  Did they attend a senshusei course in Tokyo or what?


Do they even use belts?  Every aikido picture I see shows people in hakamas.  And do people say that an aikido black belt is attainable in Japan in a year?


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## Daniel Sullivan

For the record, I personally cannot see hapkido ildan in one year.  Even two years is pushing in my opinion.  I say that based on the nature of the skills and the breadth of the skills that you need to learn.  There are more kicks and just as many hand strikes in hapkido as there are in taekwondo.  That by itself would make it a lengthier proposition, and that isn't even including hoshinsul, which is the core of the art.  Add in hoshinsul, which is all grapples, grabs, sweeps, takedowns, rolling and falling, something that could easily take take two years by itself, and I simply cannot see black belt in one year.

Even if you eliminated most of the striking and just did the hoshinsul, the techniques are more complex than a straight striking curriculum and take longer to learn.  And that is assuming a student who catches onto it without  who shows up for class two to four days a week *and* trains outside of class.  A student who takes a little longer to get it will take longer.


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do they even use belts?  Every aikido picture I see shows people in hakamas.  And do people say that an aikido black belt is attainable in Japan in a year?



Yes, most people I know wear an obi, though it is covered by the hakama.  Some people forgo the belt, but kyu/dan rankings are very much a part of aikido.  As for earning a BB in Japan, scott said it above in post 18.  

I know it is possible if you do an intensive live in program.  If you pass one of those courses you deserve the BB.  On the other hand, I am skeptical about the legitimacy of anyone earning aikido BB in one year training twice a week, regardless of where it was conferred, and I would be curious if anyone can name someone who accomplished such a feat from one of the established aikido groups like Aikikai, etc, in recent times (like 1990 or so onwards).


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Yes, most people I know wear an obi, though it is covered by the hakama.  Some people forgo the belt, but kyu/dan rankings are very much a part of aikido.



Kyu dan ranks are very much a part of kendo as well, but we generally don't wear obi or otherwise display rank.


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## Jimsinkorea

Kong Soo Do said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, your son could be a black belt (or is a black belt) at age 7?  And could be (or is already) a 2nd degree black belt at the age of 8?  Did I read this correctly?



That is correct.  My son took his test about a month and a half ago and while he hasn't received the belt, his instructor knows he passed and will get his belt right before he turns 7.  It takes 3 months for him to actually be given 2 different certifications from 2 different organizations.  He has been training for his 2nd degree black belt now for a month and a half and his instructor thinks he will get his 2nd degree within another year or so, before he is 8.  To give you an idea of cost, it is 100,000Won which equals about $100 a month, the cost of the test was around $500.  There were a huge amount of kids at the test, we had to drive to Busan to take it at a gym, my son was the only foreigner at the test.  I can say I was skeptical but the training in Korea that kids get is probably a little different than the U.S.  The instructor doesn't coddle them, hits them with a foam stick that probably stings and expects these kids to train and not play even though there are kids as young as 5 in the class.  My father has spent his life in martial arts and is amazed at what my son can do at his age after only a year.  The training is also everyday M-F for an hour and 5 minutes or so, in the States I don't think kids go 5 days a week, more like 2 or 3 days a week.  There is a 3rd degree black belt who is 9 in my sons class and he is amazing for a kid his age, he has been training with this instructor for 4 years.  Martial arts is a way of life here, every man is a black belt unless they avoid military service.  If a Korean man isn't already a blackball when he enters mandatory military service he must go to training while in the military until he obtains his black belt in a martial art.  The last thing I will add to this is that the location my son trains in is great, it is an old building that just looks like what someone would expect when they think of the old movies, no glass front, no air conditioning, the bathroom is around the corner outside... I think the environment is a big part of why he does so well, it is hard core.


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## Kong Soo Do

Jimsinkorea said:


> That is correct. My son took his test about a month and a half ago and while he hasn't received the belt, his instructor knows he passed and will get his belt right before he turns 7. It takes 3 months for him to actually be given 2 different certifications from 2 different organizations. He has been training for his 2nd degree black belt now for a month and a half and his instructor thinks he will get his 2nd degree within another year or so, before he is 8. To give you an idea of cost, it is 100,000Won which equals about $100 a month, the cost of the test was around $500. There were a huge amount of kids at the test, we had to drive to Busan to take it at a gym, my son was the only foreigner at the test. I can say I was skeptical but the training in Korea that kids get is probably a little different than the U.S. The instructor doesn't coddle them, hits them with a foam stick that probably stings and expects these kids to train and not play even though there are kids as young as 5 in the class. My father has spent his life in martial arts and is amazed at what my son can do at his age after only a year. The training is also everyday M-F for an hour and 5 minutes or so, in the States I don't think kids go 5 days a week, more like 2 or 3 days a week. There is a 3rd degree black belt who is 9 in my sons class and he is amazing for a kid his age, he has been training with this instructor for 4 years. Martial arts is a way of life here, every man is a black belt unless they avoid military service. If a Korean man isn't already a blackball when he enters mandatory military service he must go to training while in the military until he obtains his black belt in a martial art. The last thing I will add to this is that the location my son trains in is great, it is an old building that just looks like what someone would expect when they think of the old movies, no glass front, no air conditioning, the bathroom is around the corner outside... I think the environment is a big part of why he does so well, it is hard core.



Thank you for the reply, I appreciate it.  You mentioned that your son is the only non-Korean.  This brings up a question:  do you know if Korean national children also pay 100,000 Won per month and is the testing also $500 for them as well?


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## Jimsinkorea

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you for the reply, I appreciate it. You mentioned that your son is the only non-Korean. This brings up a question: do you know if Korean national children also pay 100,000 Won per month and is the testing also $500 for them as well?



There are a lot of foreigners taking martial arts in Korea, I think it just turned out that on that day he was the only foreigner... that I could see.  My wife is Korean and I asked the same question, wanted to make sure I wasn't being overcharged; she said it was a standard fee that everyone pays.  It is also standard for the results and certs to take 3 months to receive, not sure if this is to make sure students don't just get their black belt and quit or if that is processing time.  My wife did explain to me that no matter where my son goes in the States or around the world, he will be recognized as a black belt under those 2 different Hapkido organizations.  I do want to add that my son really enjoys it so I think that is key to being successful for kids.


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## Jaeimseu

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you for the reply, I appreciate it.  You mentioned that your son is the only non-Korean.  This brings up a question:  do you know if Korean national children also pay 100,000 Won per month and is the testing also $500 for them as well?



I can only speak for our dojang, but we charge the same fees for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. We have students from every continent. I would tend to think that with the availability of information these days regarding testing/certification fees you would have to be stupid to charge different fees for different people, or just be a really ballsy and dishonest person.


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## Kong Soo Do

Jaeimseu said:


> I can only speak for our dojang, but we charge the same fees for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. We have students from every continent. I would tend to think that with the availability of information these days regarding testing/certification fees you would have to be stupid to charge different fees for different people, or just be a really ballsy and dishonest person.



Agreed.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Jimsinkorea said:


> There are a lot of foreigners taking martial arts in Korea, I think it just turned out that on that day he was the only foreigner... that I could see.  My wife is Korean and I asked the same question, wanted to make sure I wasn't being overcharged; she said it was a standard fee that everyone pays.  It is also standard for the results and certs to take 3 months to receive, not sure if this is to make sure students don't just get their black belt and quit or if that is processing time.  My wife did explain to me that no matter where my son goes in the States or around the world, he will be recognized as a black belt under those 2 different Hapkido organizations.  I do want to add that my son really enjoys it so I think that is key to being successful for kids.



The next questions I suppose would be what age would this 9 year be eligible for 4th Dan?  Is 4th Dan master status in these two Hapkido organizations?  Are there any age restrictions at all?  And what are these two Hapkido organizations?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> This brings up a question:  do you know if Korean national children also pay 100,000 Won per month and is the testing also $500 for them as well?


This is essentially what my old GM charged.  For those who don't know, 100,000 won is rougly ninety US dollars.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Jaeimseu said:


> I can only speak for our dojang, but we charge the same fees for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. We have students from every continent. I would tend to think that with the availability of information these days regarding testing/certification fees you would have to be stupid to charge different fees for different people, or just be a really ballsy and dishonest person.


From what I understand, a black belt in Korea means nothing more than that you've completed the basic course.  It doesn't imply mastery or even a particular level of fighting ability.  Any more than taking a basic art class makes you an artist.  You train there, so perhaps you could tell me if I am off base.


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## Jaeimseu

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I understand, a black belt in Korea means nothing more than that you've completed the basic course.  It doesn't imply mastery or even a particular level of fighting ability.  Any more than taking a basic art class makes you an artist.  You train there, so perhaps you could tell me if I am off base.



I'm only speaking from a Taekwondo perspective, but I would say yes, black belt here is basically knowing the basics. Part of it is that almost everyone has a black belt, so it's become so common place that there isn't any mystique about it.


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## Instructor

Really, being solid in the fundamentals can carry a person very far.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Instructor said:


> Really, being solid in the fundamentals can carry a person very far.



In my experience, what separates an advanced practitioner from a novice is not the technical difficulty of the techniques that they know but their strategy and ability to apply the basics across a broad range of applications.


----------

