# is it possible that theres still old school ninja clans



## GHETTO NINJA (Mar 22, 2010)

in japan or anywhere else ?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2010)

(I honestly can't believe I'm answering this one.....)

To begin with, Ninjutsu and Ninja are purely, strictly, and exclusively a Japanese phenomenon, so "anywhere else" is out of the question.

Now, as to the possibility of a "ninja clan" still existing, that is so remote as to be non-existant. One of the main reasons is that the old clan structure no longer exists, with corporations taking their role in todays society. If you are asking if particular old Ryu still exist, well, a few have survived and are encompassed within the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan organisations, although not as individual ryu-ha themselves in the same way that Katori Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu and others have (note: even this claim is not without controversy. However, it is the only source for Ninjutsu Ryu-ha that have any form of verifiable histories).

A few years ago a few gentlemen appeared claiming to teach a form of Koga Ryu, known as Banda-ha Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, under the title Banke Shinobinoden (Ban Family Transmissions of Shinobi [Ninja] Arts), headed by Jinichi Kawakami. They did a demonstration and lecture/question and answer seminar a little while back, and although they caused a few to question whether or not they were genuine, most supporters used the comments by Meik Skoss to back them up. Unfortunately, most of what Meik said was little more than "well, I can't really say that it isn't an authentically transmitted body of knowledge", but he was very short of saying that it was in any way a verifiable Ninjutsu lineage. In fact, most of what he agreed with seemed to be that they said they would have no way of demonstrating a history, or would consider themselves a koryu (Meik's area of expertise, specialising in his own traditions, most notably Toda-ha Buko Ryu. He is not an expert on all old systems, nor Ninjutsu, and would be one of the first to tell you that himself).

So the short answer is no. There is a tiny possibility that a tradition may have escaped to survive, however with the large numbers of people that have sought systems out over the last 50 years or so, coming up with nothing at all, indicates that they have not survived. And I hold little hope for any (authentic systems) suddenly coming out of the woodwork.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 23, 2010)

To expand on Chris' reply: this also means that any western 'ninjutsu' system which does not trace back to Takamatsu sensei is not ninjutsu at all. It may be a good system and maybe the people in it could kick my ***, but it's not ninjutsu at all, any more than Cyrillic is Japanese because its graphs are made of squiggly lines.

Various western systems call themselves ninjutsu and mention a secret Japanese ninja master that noone ever heard of, nevermind that their systems do not look like ninjutsu at all. Again. That does not mean they are worthless as fighting systems. It just means that it's not ninjutsu. The 'ninja' aspect was probably tacked on for marketing reasons.

Originally, ninjutsu systems were kept secret, for insiders only. It's only been since the last decades that the remaining systems have been exposed to the outside world. So for any of these western systems to be legit, their founders would have had to come into contact with a ninjutsu master and recognized him as such (extremely unlikely) been accepted as a student (even more unlikely) and made it through the harsh training (probably not). He should have been fluent in Japanese as well, and lived in Japan for the many years required to complete training. In other words: probably not.

If you want to get some more understanding on why this is so unlikely, you should read 'Fujita Seiko, the last koga ninja'.
It is a very cheap book, but really good reading material for people wanting to learn more about ninjutsu.


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## Cirdan (Mar 23, 2010)

About as likely as the story of Bloodsport being real and no touch KOs actually working.


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## Draven (Mar 23, 2010)

GHETTO NINJA said:


> in japan or anywhere else ?


 
Well I think others have done the lineage push issue, to answer your question however I'll ask one of my own. What is a "clan" & what were the "ninja..?"

Clan
*1.* (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a group of people interrelated by ancestry or marriage
*2.* (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a group of families with a common surname and a common ancestor, acknowledging the same leader, esp among the Scots and the Irish
*3.* a group of people united by common characteristics, aims, or interests [from Scottish Gaelic _clann_ family, descendants, from Latin _planta_ sprout, plant1]

Now the term "ninja" is a bit different because historically the term is used pretty loosly but we'll use this...

Ninja
*ninja* or *nin·jas* A member of a class of 14th-century Japanese mercenary agents who were trained in the martial arts and hired for covert operations such as assassination and sabotage.

So is it possible for a group of related families to have maintained family association from the 14th century until now? Sure families in the America have done so since before their was an America and some in Europe can go back longer. Well if these people are still acting as spies, assassins, mercenaries and sabotage agents it only seems plausable that they would. 

However, the skills would basicly be useless unless said "clan" were in a position to use them enough to be important and more then as a historic tradition. If they did exist they would most likely have a face like that of the organized crime "families" like the Yakuza in Japan; who have made claims to being "ninjas." Course I can claim to be a leprechaun; but that doesn't mean I have a pot of gold anywhere. Like the Irish, Russians, Chinese, Sicilian & Mexican organized crime "families" it makes perfects since for them to do some "cross border trade" or board a plane somewhere.

How much you choose to believe that is up to you, I mean we are talking about professional liars, murderers and thieves so why would you believe to begin with..? If memory serves me Chris is 100% even Takamatsu was accused of being a fake and his lineage never totally varified. However, I'm from the as long as it works camp; where nothing else matter to me "as long as it works." The thing you have to be careful about is defining the application of the art from the "dogma" around the art & remember; possible is not always probible...


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2010)

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with the definition of "ninja" you have found there. Although there has been a popular image in the media of ninja being assassins and so forth, being the antithesis of samurai, hired to the highest bidder to do that which the samurai code of honour forbade them from doing, etc, most historical research actually goes against this. Similar to saying that Native Americans were scalping savages, really, as that practice was actually begun by French bounty hunters to stop them lying about the number of "savages" they had killed, the image has stuck where it was not really deserved.

In fact, it is thought that many who were later identified as ninja were actually samurai, either acting in a way that was not "normal" for a samurai, or a samurai who was deposed in some way (on the losing side of a battle, for instance), and followed a particular life philosophy. We once had a student who asked me after class if it was true that all ninja were rapists, I told him that that was a negative story, basically propaganda designed to turn people against practitioners of ninjutsu, and if it was true, why on earth would he want to be a member of a group like that? Interestingly, he never came back to class. Now, I don't think he wanted to be a rapist, but he also couldn't handle having his false beliefs challenged.

By the same token, I would be very hesitant to refer to ninja in the same way as criminal organisations such as the Yakuza, Mafia etc, in the same way that I would not refer to the historical ninja as "the special forces of their day, like the SAS", which I hear way too often.

I would also challenge the date, only the 14th century is listed, although the traditions in some cases go from the 12 century, others in the 17th, and completely in between. So the referenced link is somewhat lacking, at the list.

As for families continuing through the generations, well, that is what I was refering to when I mentioned ryu-ha such as Katori Shinto Ryu, which is in it's 20th generation now, still held by the same family (the Iizasa family). But when it comes to the ninja traditions, well, they were always far more practical by nature, and when that practicality was lost, it seems that most heads of the various systems simply stopped passing them down, destroying their scrolls and so forth in the process. It should be noted that other traditions suffered the same fate, many skills of hojojutsu were lost when the skills lost their usage, sometimes turning into skills for creating crafts and so on, or just lost completely. Same for armour manufacture. The Edo Jidai, a period of extended peace, was great, but it did lead to the loss of quite a lot of martial skills. With the samurai, this was minimised by the ideal that all samurai should keep their martial skills sharp, but when the samurai were abolished in about 1877, that ended other arts. Finally, when the Occupying US Forces after WWII banned all martial arts, a number of masters destroyed their scrolls, losing more knowledge again, particularly here in the skill of sword smithing (but that is another topic entirely). But the point is that it has not been an easy path for any art to survive, so what is left is what we know about (for the most part).

Yes, Takamatsu's traditions had/have question marks over them, as did Fujita Seiko's claim of the last head of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu tradition. But they are the best candidates for being historical traditions, and have not been disproven, although to follow their histories, more than a little faith is required. 

When it comes to "as long as it works, nothing else matters" ideal, well, I actually have problems with that. I would actually suggest that if that is all you are interested in, ninjutsu is not for you. Yes, it can be eminently practical, however it needs adaptation for that to happen. And there is a lot of material that are in no way practical on any level (in regards to a street fight). I mean, really, how often do you meet someone with a spear when you are armed with a sword, hmm? A part of wanting to train ninjutsu has to have some sense of the history, and a desire to preserve the traditions, same as with any koryu-style tradition. But that's my view.


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## Draven (Mar 23, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with the definition of "ninja" you have found there.


 
It was either that the definition as someone who practices ninjutsu, which opens the clan issue up to family owned dojos and a few more. 



Chris Parker said:


> In fact, it is thought that many who were later identified as ninja were actually samurai, either acting in a way that was not "normal" for a samurai, or a samurai who was deposed in some way (on the losing side of a battle, for instance), and followed a particular life philosophy.


 
It was no different then the Knights of Feudal Europe claiming live by the Code of Chivalry yet practiced similar guerrilla & commando skill sets. I prefer to ninjutsu as a aspect of bujutsu in general; the shadow side pun intended. A defeated samurai could easily turn "ronin" & train several peasants in "ninjutsu" which is more common to guerrilla warfare or commando styled unconventional warfare then anime black clad assassins.



Chris Parker said:


> When it comes to "as long as it works, nothing else matters" ideal, well, I actually have problems with that. I would actually suggest that if that is all you are interested in, ninjutsu is not for you. Yes, it can be eminently practical, however it needs adaptation for that to happen. And there is a lot of material that are in no way practical on any level (in regards to a street fight). I mean, really, how often do you meet someone with a spear when you are armed with a sword, hmm? A part of wanting to train ninjutsu has to have some sense of the history, and a desire to preserve the traditions, same as with any koryu-style tradition. But that's my view.


 
Well thats the beauty of it, since ninjutsu in its many forms cannot be 100% varified as tradition then maintaining a tradition of fixed techniques isn't 100% required; your sense of history is more philosophical then literal. I learned a style of Ninjutsu which is "one of the fake ninja systems" but it has a tracable lineage in the modern context to Japan and didn't spread to Canada until the later 1940s-50s. One of my instructors in the system owns and operates several ninjutsu schools commercially; (course he doesn't have ninjutsu on the door) its actually labelled a as jujutsu school. 

You don't know you're learning ninjutsu until you reach shodan. We take a completely different approach in that there are two types of traditions; literal historic traditions and philosophical based traditions. Since the philosophy is a reflection of the spirit of the art, why not adapt and change & grow. The study of the history is in more a general context, like looking at the history of the civil war, you don't only examine what the Union or the Confederates did but what all soldiers did. Even if use some the lessons learned, you're not going to come to the battlefield with muskets are you?

Oh and if you scroll to about the bottom you can see a field improvised sword & nunchuku from the SEREs school at Fort Bragg, here is a good example of modern adaptation of concept. And no, I'm not saying ninjas are trained at Fort Bragg. lol


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2010)

Draven said:


> I learned a style of Ninjutsu which is "one of the fake ninja systems" but it has a tracable lineage in the modern context to Japan and didn't spread to Canada until the later 1940s-50s. One of my instructors in the system owns and operates several ninjutsu schools commercially; (course he doesn't have ninjutsu on the door) its actually labelled a as jujutsu school.



http://www.freewebs.com/blackdragonninjitsu/members.htm



> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Shihan Ron Collins*[/FONT]​ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]nineshadows2001@yahoo.com[/FONT]​ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5th Dan Omoto Ryu Koga Ha Ninjitsu
> 5th Dan Koga Hai Lung Ryu Ninjitsu (honorary)
> 1st Dan Shotokan
> 2nd Dan Goju Ryu
> ...



Other services Ron offers:  hitting people on the head with a hammer, fighting law enforcement officers, wearing an ankle bracelet on home arrest.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2010)

Draven said:


> It was either that the definition as someone who practices ninjutsu, which opens the clan issue up to family owned dojos and a few more.
> 
> Well, the other thing to remember is that the term "ninja" or "ninjutsu" are also relatively recent, so historically the various persons we would refer to as ninja (person who practices ninjutsu) would not refer to themselves in such a way. Hattori Hanzo was refered to simply as a Bushi from the Iga region.
> 
> ...


 
On to the last thing.

Bill, I have a fair amount of respect for you and the way you conduct yourself here for about 98% of the time... but you seem to have been following Draven around posting bits of his history with his real name wherever he posts. A friendly warning here that that is probably not going to be the best thing for you to do. Speaking personally, I disagree with most of his ideas, thoughts, approaches, posts, I think he is overtly violent, and comes from a more-than-suspect training background, but the best thing to do if you disagree is to be better at arguing your side. Even if you don't convince them, you will at least get your side out for others to make up their minds. I just don't want to see you gone for something like this.


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## Draven (Mar 23, 2010)

_



Well, the other thing to remember is that the term "ninja" or "ninjutsu" are also relatively recent, so historically the various persons we would refer to as ninja (person who practices ninjutsu) would not refer to themselves in such a way. Hattori Hanzo was refered to simply as a Bushi from the Iga region.

Click to expand...

_
_Thats true but, even the modern useage was intended to identify a particular type of Bushi, though some bandits were also called ninjas because they were highly skilled.





Ninjutsu can be simply an aspect of an overall teaching (such as within Katori Shinto Ryu), but a few other things are a little out for me here. To begin with, you are missing what the Chivalric tradition actually is, as it is rather different to the Bushido aspect of the Japanese samurai. But then I don't think that is very well understood either. Each were applied well and truly after the fact to romanticise the groups in question, but were not really applied at the times people think they were.

And no, a defeated samurai could not just "turn ronin", then "teach peasants ninjutsu", your history is a bit out there as well. Typically, a ronin was a samurai who was "between jobs", as it were, and some Daimyo actually required that their samurai spend time (I have heard of lengths of 7 years) as ronin, travelling and improving so that they could bring back better skills to pass on within the group. Of course, others insisted that all samurai had to stay within the fiefdom at all times, and strictly forbade the ronin practice. As for "teach(ing) the peasants ninjutsu", well, that is just inaccurate. The idea of ninjutsu being a peasants version of martial arts is a misuse of the origins of karate (and that is nowhere near the full story there, either!), and the displaced samurai (note: not ronin) would not teach ninjutsu. He may teach his understanding of combative methods, and as circumstance dictates, that may evolve into something that we would refer to as ninjutsu, but the displaced samurai certainly wouldn't have been the one teaching it.

Click to expand...


You get the point of my comparing Bushido to Chilvary they both were romantic notions used to define the samurai & knight respectively, often of which only applied in interaction with other members of their caste._

_As for ninjutsu not being a "peasant martial art" I never said it was, I said it could be taught to peasants to form guerrilla-soldiers. Its a simple fact that Samurai & fuedal lords would conscript untrained peasants to bulk their normal firghting forces. Those peasants had no formal training in any martial art and served as cannon fodder, while samurai acted as shock troops, NCOs & Officers._

_By your own words _
_"...the term *"ninja" or "ninjutsu" are also relatively recent*, so *historically the various persons we would refer to as ninja* (person who practices ninjutsu) *would not refer to themselves in such a way.*"_

_"...the displaced samurai (note: not ronin) would not teach ninjutsu. *He may teach his understanding of combative methods, and as circumstance dictates, that may evolve into something that we would refer to as ninjutsu*, but the displaced samurai certainly wouldn't have been the one teaching it." _

_With your own statement you condemn your own arguement, you'll note I refered to the whole "ronin" statement with the quotation marks, meaning it wasn't a literal statement & since ninjutsu is a recent development & a samurai could teach bujutsu (which may or may not be refered to as ninjutsu in the modern context) its all just arguing semantics._
_




No, maintaining the tradition is not actually necessarily dependant on the techniques remaining unchanged. What is necessary is that the teaching of the principles of the art remains consistant, from one head to the next. And that head decides how it is done. It is not a sense of history that I spoke about, but more a sense of responsibility to see that these teachings are preserved (this is really a koryu approach, to be honest).

Now, I have avoided this subject with you until now, and now only because you brought it up. What about your Otomo Ryu is verified in Japan? There was a very old ryu by that name, but it died out centuries ago, along with other arts such as the Fuma Ryu, which some claim to teach today as well. Still, at least it's better that the other one, Koga Hai Lung Ninjitsu? Really? What part of that is authentic? Hmm, I'm going to leave that for now with this sites rules, but I'll come back to it a little later (slightly different approach).

Click to expand...

_
_What you seem to be talking about to me is organization; that a only the heads of the organization can change or adapt the system. Why? Out of some notion of lineage or out of some corporate model of being a CEO? The problem with that is that the geographical, economical, cultural & ethical limitations of the world were the "koryu approach" was needed are no longer limited. We cannot say that growth must come from the head of the organization alone, thats a why I say historical traditions are dead._

_"*What is necessary is that the teaching of the principles of the art remains consistant, from one head to the next.* *And that head decides how it is done.* It is not a sense of history that I spoke about, but *more a sense of responsibility to see that these teachings are preserved (this is really a koryu approach, to be honest)*."_

_Thats also a corperate approach, so that a CEO can maintain the franchise & that is exactly what its used for today. History & lineage are excuses for maitaining corperate control and a marketting tool. As far as Omoto Ryu, it is not verified in Japan except that there are practicers of the art in Japan. _
_





Now this you lose me with completely. Is it supposed to have anything to do with the rest of your post, other than a brief reference to military history a second ago? I'm not really sure what the improvised weaponry has to do with the discussion, especially if we are talking ninjutsu, which makes the nunchaku completely irrelevant. Ninjutsu has never had such a weapon, and if anyone thinks they are studying ninjutsu and are learning this weapon as a part of that study, they have, I'm afraid, been had.

Click to expand...

_ 
_Only your reference to fighting someone with a spear with a sword, as far as the nunchuku is concerned I train with them as part of ninjutsu training; they were added in back with the popularity of Shotokan early last century before I even studied the art & myself well I've added modern firearms and improvised explosives devises. Instructors in Canada don't have access to those kinds of firearms & nor do those in Japan without going through criminal channels. _

_The point is that arguing a tradition but claiming adaptation people always return to historical arguements & while I agree that what others have done before us matters & we can learn from them, we should be so limited by the idea of tradition that we blindly follow history. Using the nunchuku as an example; they are easily improvised from material as readily available as shoe laces or a strip of cloth and two sticks, they are very effective at striking and grappling range. However they are left out of one system by the "historical tradition" but are adopted by another of the "philosophical tradition."_


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2010)

This is because I love a good argument, although we have hijacked the thread a bit. Mind you, the OP is now banned, so I don't think it matters too much....



Draven said:


> _Thats true but, even the modern useage was intended to identify a particular type of Bushi, though some bandits were also called ninjas because they were highly skilled._
> 
> To a degree, yes. Although I would say that the bandits being refered to as ninja was more just a colloquialism, as they were in no way associated with the actual ninja themselves.
> 
> ...


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## Draven (Mar 24, 2010)

You seem to be missing the point I'm making; take Robert Bussey or even Stephen Hayes both can trace their "ninjutsu" to Takamatsu sensei; however Takamatsu was called a liar & a fraud in his own time. Now Bussey got "defamed" for breaking the "tradition" by starting his own expression of the art & adding from other sources. Years later Hayes did the same thing with Toshindo and the first response was the same treatment as Bussey.

My questions are;

How was that wrong..? 

Is it because he improved on what he was taught without Hatsumi permitting it?

At what point does tradition require anyone submits before some "grandmaster" like in a 80s ninja movie?

Is it no longer Karate, if someone incorperates diffent aspects of other MAs to make it more applicatible?

In one aspect you're saying; "Adaptation and growth are all well and good, we do that ourselves." and then contradict yourself with "But really, if you are training with nunchaku and calling it ninjutsu, then you're mistaken. Completely different, developed for completely different reasons, with very different histories and philosophies. When looked at in this light, nunchaku actually have no place within ninjutsu."

What if I feel that my adaption & growth requires expanding the to the use of nunchuku or hell even the AR15 & AK47 I teach as part of my system. As for the "quality control" thats fine for the individual school, I can see wanting to keep out imposters to the specific school, such as having individual certficed instructors in that system however to call it "quality control" for some other school in similar system is just market control.

Ninjutsu is the only art where specific schools claim that no one else use their arts name. I can understand with Gracie Juijitsu since thats a specific school of juijitsu however they don't say no one can use the term juijitsu do they..? Thus we see many Brazilian Juijitsu schools, not all of the Gracie lineage. We have also seen many karate schools which won't be "karate" by your same standard.

To use your McDonalds arguement, the corperation can keep the other franchise resteraunts doing what it wants. They can even keep a anyone else from using the DcDonalds name & logos but they can't stop people from cooking hamburgers because they aren't McDonald's hamburgers. Thats what you're arguing, that "koryu-ninjutsu" is the only "ninjutsu" and no one can have ninjutsu because its not a name brand ninjutsu, course as we both agree the term ninjutsu is more recent distinction between certain aspects of bujutsu based on different philosophies of Bushido.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2010)

Ha, I can understand confussion, it's not exactly an easy thing to get around, but we'll see how we go...



Draven said:


> You seem to be missing the point I'm making; take Robert Bussey or even Stephen Hayes both can trace their "ninjutsu" to Takamatsu sensei; however Takamatsu was called a liar & a fraud in his own time. Now Bussey got "defamed" for breaking the "tradition" by starting his own expression of the art & adding from other sources. Years later Hayes did the same thing with Toshindo and the first response was the same treatment as Bussey.
> 
> Takamatsu's lineages were not all questioned, systems such as Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu are very well established. The main contention was the Togakure Ryu claim. However it was accepted enough to make it into the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, put together by independant martial historians. As for Hayes, Bussey, and even my own organisation, from a koryu point of view by breaking with the mainline, we cannot by definition be teaching the ryu, even though we can be teaching the same techniques. That is because we are no longer a part of that ryu. However, Hatsumi does not teach in a koryu fashion, so that becomes kinda moot (for the record, when Tanemura left to form the Genbukan, he officially could not teach those ryu and licence in them, so he formed his own branches of them. That way he can continue to teach and rank in them).
> 
> ...


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## kaizasosei (Mar 24, 2010)

Anybody who said Takamatsusensei is a fraud was an ignorant fool.  Takamatsusensei was a real human being.  Don't get much more real. How can you be a fraud in humbly and respectfully sharing what you love.  


j


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## Draven (Mar 24, 2010)

Oh but Kukishin Ryu is a Jujutsu Ryu with no ninjutsu listed as part of the system (except for x-kan sites), more so; other besides Takamatsu have been licensed to teach this Ryu-ha and only those derived from Takamatsu came it is a ninjutsu school. More so, Takamatsu was never soke of Kukishin Ryu that was granted to Iwami Nangaku & Takamatsu was allowed to found the sub-school of Kukishinden Ryu. Kumogakure Ryu is another issue as its alledgely derived from the same family which has the debated ryu of Togakure Ryu... I should also point out that the existance of Toda, Shinryuken Masamitsu is a hotly contested issue as well.

You see we have two issue to be overcome;
1) How we define ninjutsu...
You choose to define it as a particluar lineage, but since even the individuals within the lineage used the term retroactively, a jujutsu school kenjutsu school could be considered "ninjutsu" if they used a certain set of tactics. So then "ninjutsu" is application of specific skills and tactics where as a specific school's name or style is the "college" those "lessons" are derived from.

2) The useage of the term...
Well what you're missing is that while some can combined shotokan karate & BJJ and call it "karate." While calling it shotokan would be incorrect useage of the term (on that we agree) however karate it is regardless because it uses a specific set of skills and tactics, however those tactics might well be expanded upon to begin with. So then someone applying a particular skill set can be considered "ninjutsu" without actually being say Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.

3) The reality of tradition & name brands...
Thus we come to the issue here; now as I've been intentional in not mentioning, their are 2 types of martial arts as far as lineage goes. Gendai (modern) & Koryu (ancient or old school); of which with each new adaptation becomes more gendai then koryu. I can accept a "modern form" grown out of individual adaptation; I never made any claim to it being a koryu art form in the first place, only that it applied certain skillsets common to the specific tactics described as ninjutsu.

However since "ninjutsu" is a more gendai term then a "koryu" one it makes perfect since for it have gendai expressions. There are gendai forms of jujutsu dedicated to fighting methods more then philosophy, the common distinction between budo & bujutsu, in the world today. Thus gendai ninjutsu seems just as plausable; I'm neither claiming a koryu lineage nor am I aserting a specific "brand name" beyond the one it was taught to me under. 

Sorry I don't buy the ninja history thing when those claiming it the most simply don't have it themselves. Instead I see it has more or less as marketing puffery; trying to debase the market competition. 

Think of it as this, lineage is fine for proving a lot of things but it doesn't alter the product. I can teach combatives and I can call "guerrilla-combatives" but its still a the end product of "combatives." Now I can't say its "Applegate/Fairbairn Combatives" without having a lineage to show that, but I still have "combatives." Saying I can't call it combatives because I can't trace a lineage to Fairbairn, Applegate or Stykes is a bit childish.

While the Omoto-Ryu as I understand is derived from an older system of "ninjutsu" its still been modernized even before I learned it; to include some weapons from kobudo & techniques from other systems. It makes use the skillsets involving stealth, evasion, survival training, meditation, herbal medicines, various weapons far exceeding koryu school and even into modern firearms training. Yes, the school even deals with aspects of espionage work & even covert warfare and tactics. Is a Koryu system? Nope, but it is still ninjutsu making use of those skillsets.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2010)

Bruno has been formulating a reply for a little while now, let's see who gets there first...



Draven said:


> Oh but Kukishin Ryu is a Jujutsu Ryu with no ninjutsu listed as part of the system (except for x-kan sites), more so; other besides Takamatsu have been licensed to teach this Ryu-ha and only those derived from Takamatsu came it is a ninjutsu school. More so, Takamatsu was never soke of Kukishin Ryu that was granted to Iwami Nangaku & Takamatsu was allowed to found the sub-school of Kukishinden Ryu. Kumogakure Ryu is another issue as its alledgely derived from the same family which has the debated ryu of Togakure Ryu... I should also point out that the existance of Toda, Shinryuken Masamitsu is a hotly contested issue as well.
> 
> To begin with, Kukishin Ryu contains Jujutsu, primarily taken from the Takagi Ryu, but it is not a Jujutsu school. It is a sogo bujutsu ryu-ha, with it's initial focus on naginatajutsu and sojutsu, later being known as specialists with various bo. I'm not too fond of the link you provided, I would go more with this one myself http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html as it is far more complete and informative. It is the website of the current mainline Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu, and is a great read.
> 
> ...


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 24, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Bruno has been formulating a reply for a little while now, let's see who gets there first...



My apologies.

I was indeed writing up a reply, going into the more nitpicky angles of the argument. And then I thought to myself: 'why bother'. After all, all arguments have been put on the table.

What usually happens right around the time I was going to reply, is that someone simply refuses to acknowledge the arguments of the others, and the discussion goes round and round, covering the same essentials over and over in slightly different wording.

So I simply closed my browser window and mowed my lawn and spent a couple of hours de-mossing it so that I can start practicing outside now that spring is coming about. That seemed to me a far better use of my time than wasting time on a circular argument.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 24, 2010)

Some arguments are best just left to drift, ehh!


Seriously Chris did a really nice job in pointing out some very pertinent points.
Simply put you cannot and should not create a style in todays world and call it Ninjutsu.  If you do so then you risk permanent ridicule and people will simply never take you seriously!


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## Draven (Mar 24, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Some arguments are best just left to drift, ehh!
> 
> 
> Seriously Chris did a really nice job in pointing out some very pertinent points.
> Simply put you cannot and should not create a style in todays world and call it Ninjutsu. If you do so then you risk permanent ridicule and people will simply never take you seriously!


 
Thats true Brian, of course you also have to realize that by the standard imposed by that the x-kans are all hypocritical & they have no claim either. Consider that the only varified aspects of Takamatsu's lineage is Takagi Yoshin ryu & Kukishin ryu is independantly varifiable. More so, no one associated with ninjutsu claims them as ninjutsu nor their practicers outside of x-kan claim any connects to ninjutsu. Concerning Toda (the source of Takamatsu's Ninjutsu lineage) there are so many contradicting dates given for the time of his life & death so that he is considered suspect or to have even existed.

Problem with the "koryu arguement" is that no ninjutsu school today is proven as a koryu system, regardless of how many frachise websites argue differently. Just as there are specific gendai jujutsu schools which do not trace themselves to a koryu samurai but still reflect a particular skillset can call itself jujutsu, why can't one do so for ninjutsu? 

More so, since the whole existance of Togakure Ryu among other ryu-ha are all hinged on Toda's existance & we are to believe that Takamatsu & it was recorded that Takamatsu made him up as well as Togakure Ryu then it means still no "koryu connection."

Ah, yes the Bujinkan can prove a legitimate history to two jujutsu schools which do not want to be involved in ninjutsu and the only two recognized koryu ninjutsu schools include ninjutsu only as a course in tactics. Like I said its all marketing & trolling or flaming for pointing that out (which I'm amazed hasn't been done yet) only shows that one is trying to defend that position. No ninjutsu school is legitimately koryu though there are koryu systems which have ninjutsu included.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 24, 2010)

If Ninja are a result of a caste system, then India could have similar peeps.
sean


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm going to address this one quickly (I hope!).

The confusion over dates is actually not that uncommon, especially with people trying to change from the Japanese callendar to a Western one. There are also theories that Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu was not the direct teacher for the most part, but possibly Takamatsu's uncle instead, and the two persons have had their dates overlap. The school was Toda Sr's, but Toda Jr may have done most of the teaching. As I said earlier, there have been claims of Toda Sensei's grave being found.

As to using Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu (not a jujutsu system, really) to argue whether or not they are classed as a ninjutsu lineage anywhere other than the Bujinkan and related organisations, they don't claim them as being ninjutsu lineages. Part of the reason the Bujinkan changed the description of it's technical curriculum from Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu to Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu was to reflect the fact that ninjutsu was only a small aspect of what it taught in it's schools.

As to why modern schools cannot be considered ninjutsu, the simple answer is that the required circumstances for a ninjutsu school to be founded no longer exist. Those circumstances include the fuedal caste system as applied in Japan (sorry Touch Of Death, not applicable to any other locale, including India), the particular geography of the region, the political situation (military dictatorships, a ruling military class, persecusion of non-conforming groups etc), and more. And those circumstances simply do not exist anymore. 

As to a verifiable koryu lineage, the simple fact is that two independant historians, Watatani and Yamada, put together a book (two editions have been created) called the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, in which they personally did their own research into the veracity of the claims of many koryu and other traditions throughout Japan, and the traditions held by Takamatsu and then Hatsumi are the only ones that passed muster. That is it. There is no other that is even close to that level of verification or legitimacy. And again, although Takamatsu's claims have been disputed, they have not been disproven. 

If you look at the various ryu contained within the Bujinkan and related organisations, each is completely consistant in it's individual approach, in other words, it has a complete and defined philosophy and method of movement, distinct and defined apart from the others. There is of course a certain amount of cross-over, given how inter-related some of the ryu themselves are, but this defining guiding philosophy is something that I have never seen in any "modern ninjutsu" system. The closest I have seen are in some karate based bogus schools, because their guiding philosophy is basically the karate origin, but then they have other aspects tacked on which contravene that basic approach. This is like adding nunchaku to a ninjutsu system. It goes against the basic philosophy of the system, and if you aren't getting that, then you aren't getting the way ninjutsu works, moves, or approached combat. And that simply means you have never trained ninjutsu.


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## Draven (Mar 26, 2010)

Chris, here is the problem. 
a) Takamatsu has no proof that Toda even existed and that kills the lineage of the 3 ninjutsu ryu-ha orgionally claimed as such by the Bujinkan.
b) Yes, it is often quoted that Takamatsu's friend said he created the togakure ryu system from "childhood ninja games" what is often ignored is that the same Bugei Ryuha Daijiten refered to Toda as an "oral tradition." Meaning all we have is Takamatsu's word.
c) Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu who was allegedly Takamtsu's grandfather, uncle, friend of the family etc (the story changes depending on who tells it) was also supposed to be a "bone-setter" in Kobe. Problem is there are no records of Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, in Kobe which was a large city at the time. So there should be a record of a bone-setter or a dojo of some kind. There isn't...
d) Takamatsu's Chinese experiences are likewise based on his say so & Hatsumi at first told Don Draeger he was "reconstructing ninjutsu." But, he did go to China we just have his word for what he did there.

I can go into deeper detail but facts are there are holes and you can spin however you like but their just isn't any proof. Now take Omoto-Ryu I can trace it back to 3 people past, 2 in Japan & 1 in the US. As far as know its a "reconstructed system" or it could be purely fake. The difference is I'm trying to pass off my traditions as something its not; a proven varified koryu system. 

As for all this talk of guiding philosophy; what philosophy? You haven't give me a philosophy to guide byu just claimed none exist. Your arguement is the pot calling the kettle black; the x-kan lineage has just as many holes Ashida Kim's. No one has proven Ashida Kim did not learn ninjutsu, yet they haven't disproven them either... lol

Takamatsu gets a free pass on unproven (disputed as imaginary) claims to fighting in death matchs in China but other can't..? Oh they have no proof so they must be lies even if they are unproven as lies. Basicly it comes down to this, the Bujinkan is seen as very influentual in the US, in Japan it gets laughed at. Here the lack of people who know better or lack have the means to research it; makes it perfect for the usual market politics.

Even you dearly quoted, Bugei Ryuha Daijiten states that Takamatsu made it based on childrens games he played as a kid and the person who wrote it had known him since childhood, so he would have known what Takamatsu was doing or if he had an uncle Toda.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 27, 2010)

You know, I thought we had moved past this. One more then?



Draven said:


> Chris, here is the problem.
> a) Takamatsu has no proof that Toda even existed and that kills the lineage of the 3 ninjutsu ryu-ha orgionally claimed as such by the Bujinkan.
> 
> Okay, to begin with, I have never disputed that there are issues with the various lineages. If I recall correctly, your first post in this thread referenced me saying just that. Just so you remember...
> ...


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 27, 2010)

I said I was done here. However, as to the 'free pass' for Takamatsu, I feel I should post this link
http://blog.bushinbooks.com/2006/07/05/authenticity-and-the-bujinkan/print/

I posted it before in a similar discussion. If you want to know -why- we are prepared to acknowledge Takamatsu sensei as legit but not e.g Ashida Kim or Frank Dux, please read that article.


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## Archangel M (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes..somewhere in the mountains of Japan they are still fighting it out with the long hidden Samurai clans.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 27, 2010)

Chris, my friend, you have much more patience then I.


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## blink13 (Mar 28, 2010)

I think most of them closed shop after Zartan killed off the Hard Master.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm an oldskool ninja clan.

Thats right... I am a WHOLE clan.  All 47 of me.


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## Omar B (Mar 28, 2010)

Maybe Batman's clan still around?  http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Night_of_the_Ninja


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## blink13 (Mar 28, 2010)

Wait, was that the one headed by Oscar Schindler, or Qui-Gon Jinn?  I forget.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 28, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Maybe Batman's clan still around?  http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Night_of_the_Ninja



Actually in that Batman Episode IIRC Wayne and Kyodai Ken were students of a Budo master in Japan, Kyodai attempted to steal from the master and left disgraced and became a ninja.   

Its been some time since I saw it, but that strikes a bell.


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## Kajowaraku (Apr 13, 2010)

The part that always puzzles me most is how eager people are about having whatever they do being recognized as ninjutsu (or even ninjitsu if they're not particularily picky about spelling). 

I mean: what does it matter? I understand the fascination, but please, insisting you do something that belongs to an old tradition or is derived thereof but is in fact not based on actually lineage, but merely on "similarity of concept" is like claiming you're a Iroqui indian because you have interesting hair, ride on horseback without a saddle and have a knack for throwing hatchets (please don't fuss about whether or not iroqui threw hatchets or something, it's a metaphor, and no disrespect is intended at all).

Why oh why does it make people happy to pretend to be ninja? It's just a loose collection of ryuha that share a heritage and tend to be a little less conventional. But you can get unconventional in tradional Jujutsu just the same. 

_[rant]_
ah anyway. I wouldn't really care to much if it weren't for the bad reputation them ninjerfetishists often give the arts. That's the irony. Traditional ninjutsu keiko is repetitive and takes an awful lot of repeating the same basic techniques. It doesn't get flashy or wild until after a good amount of time has passed, and by that time most will have dropped out. Ninjerskool (tm) seems to offer a much quicker path to flashy moves and swirling nunchucks, much to the delight of friends, innocent bystanders and the easily impressed. 
_[/rant]_

Right, felt good getting that of my chest.


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## Tanaka (Apr 26, 2010)

To the discussion of Draven and Chris.

I wanted to ask...
What is Ashida kim using to reconstruct his "omote ryu"?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 27, 2010)

Reconstruct? I think you're being rather charitable....

There is no fraudbusting on MT, otherwise it would be rather easy to post clips from Ashida and point out every little thing that totally removes any aspect of authenticity whatsoever from the mind of someone watching (who understands what they are looking at).

But to put it simply, without getting too far into it, there is no basis whatsoever. There is nothing in anything he has ever shown that has any roots in Japanese martial traditions at all, and nothing that shows any actual basis in a true martial art. Just a note, this is not fraudbusting, as there could be things not shown, and what is put out there is an elaborate practical joke to hide his real system.... but I do doubt that.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 27, 2010)

Reconstructing a dead ryuha, as a non Japanese person with no other experience in related traditional JMA, without any details, is like trying to reconstruct the potatoes from a bowl of mash, or reconstructing a steak from a portion of mince.



Tanaka said:


> What is Ashida kim using to reconstruct his "omote ryu"?



His fantasy.
Even if he were to have the genuine scrolls, they are compeltely worthless without in-person instruction and the kuden (oral secrets).
For example, if I were to have a scroll that lists the 9th kyu techniques for Genbukan ninpo, I would see that to evade a certain swordcut, I use hicho sabaki, which translates roughly to the concept of a 'bird taking off for flight'. Uh... ok. Had I not seen it, I'd never be able to guess what that means. Or how about 'Itami Jime' which is an 8th kyu technique that translates to 'painful lock' (sorry for the rough translation. There might be a more accurate one).

Or how about a personal favorite of mine (not) 'oni kudaki' which can be translated in a couple of ways, but imo 'demonic destruction' is the most accurate one. Let's take the last one for example: suppose you find the omote ryu scroll and it mentions a technique named 'demonic destruction', how do you go about reconstructing it without any context to the name, without written details and without knowing when, where or how to apply it?

It would be like reconstructing daito ryu from aikido, without even having aikido to start with.


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## Tanaka (Apr 27, 2010)

I'm not sure what I can say on this topic due to the rules.

So I will just say that I am aware of Ashida Kim.
I just saw he said that he was reconstructing Omote Ryu.


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## jks9199 (Apr 27, 2010)

Folks,

The rules on fraudbusting are pretty simple.  You can state facts.  You can questions someone's credentials.  But when you start hounding them around the forum, or demanding they justify themselves or prove their credentials -- that's when there's a problem.  To help you out, here are the rules:



> *1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. *
> 
> It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or  decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to  headaches, and lawsuits.





> *4.16.1 Fraud Busting*
> 
> Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of  questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about  the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other  cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a  member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been  made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.
> 
> ...



If you have any questions, you can always PM any senior moderator, super moderator, admin, or higher member of the staff. 

I hope nobody feels like they're being chastised here.  Instead, I hope that this gives you some guidance and lets you feel free to post what you'd like to.


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