# Deciding Not to Be a Victim



## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

I went off topic on another thread, so it seemed like I should just start one about it.

Much of our culture seems, to me at least, encourages the ''victim" mindset.  

We had "experts" saying we should just give into criminals so we don't make the situation worse, schools who punish kids defending themselves along with the attackers.  A growing idea that it's law enforcements duty to protect each of us individually.  The list goes on.

What can we, outside of training up our students, do to help get rid of these attitudes?

Jeff


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> I went off topic on another thread, so it seemed like I should just start one about it.
> 
> Much of our culture seems, to me at least, encourages the ''victim" mindset.
> 
> We had "experts" saying we should just give into criminals so we don't make the situation worse


Unless it was  THEM or their Mother, Father, Sister, Borther, Wife, Husband being attacked




			
				Jeff said:
			
		

> schools who punish kids defending themselves along with the attackers.


 
Sad but true, the attacked NEVER gets punished..Then the victim faces ANOTHER attack outside of school properly..Now if the attacker is a "poplular" student only the victim get punished..



			
				Jeff said:
			
		

> A growing idea that it's law enforcements duty to protect each of us individually.


 
Blame all those who passed around the horror stories of being arrested by the police for defending themselves..They usually left out key elements of the story like how they used a tire iron against a smaller intoxicated person who could barely stand and somhow managed to throw a punch..



			
				Jeff said:
			
		

> What can we, outside of training up our students, do to help get rid of these attitudes?


 
I have no suggestions..Anyone else???


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## Infinite (Jan 10, 2007)

Well in the united states we have about three options.

1) Start a lobby group in Washington to change some of the laws or perceived laws that are about to be written.
1a) Do the same thing at the state level.

2) Start a non profit group for education on when it is and is not ok to defend oneself and provide help for legal or other costs (Ala the ACLU model)

3) Start a group that engages schools to try and educate the administration on the hazords of duel punishment techniques. The goal here would be to start a movement in the education sector that allows for more detailed accounts of violence occuring and better descisions based on that.

An interesting idea I'd be willing to donate time/money/effort into it but I'm not sure how many others would.


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

Infinite said:
			
		

> Start a group that engages schools to try and educate the administration on the hazords of duel punishment techniques. The goal here would be to start a movement in the education sector that allows for more detailed accounts of violence occuring and better descisions based on that...An interesting idea I'd be willing to donate time/money/effort into it but I'm not sure how many others would.


 
Hey, I'm up for it..


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## Infinite (Jan 10, 2007)

So I think the best idea would be to create the group and get a web page. Put together some promotional material that highlights the goals and objectives of the group.

Then we would do some pr releases to get some press and hopefully get some exposure we could capatalize on. We could then either enter schools with a more traditional voilence is bad what to do in the case of violence. Meanwhile we use that time to estabilish credability and influence some of the school behavior. 

OR we could simply start with the premis that the good somaritan law is there fore a reson and try to impress that apon the administrations but if we don't offer anything to the student body I'm not sure if they would talk to us.


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

We need to check with the school's DARE officer for his imput..


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## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2007)

People are encouraged to have a 'victim' attitude for two reasons I think. Firstly it pays to be a victim, literally. The compensation culture is rife with people suing over anything that they can and the courts awarding big payouts. The other reason is that whatever happens that is even slightly 'not nice' you need to go to counselling for it! As people are fond of pointing out over here, Londoners got all throught the Blitz in the war with needing counselling yet now people are told they need help for the slightest little thing. It is weakening people and it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy,they feel unable to cope with life and won't be able to defend themselves.


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## Infinite (Jan 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> We need to check with the school's DARE officer for his imput..



Well I DARE say we would have to include any local enforcement at the school 

Pun intended.


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

Infinite said:


> Well I DARE say we would have to include any local enforcement at the school
> 
> Pun intended.


 
LOL...


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

Drac said:


> Blame all those who passed around the horror stories of being arrested by the police for defending themselves..They usually left out key elements of the story like how they used a tire iron against a smaller intoxicated person who could barely stand and somhow managed to throw a punch..



As far as that aspect of the problem goes, I think what you are saying is only a small part of the problem.  I think the larger aspect would be more and more people giving up responsibility of large chuncks of their own lives.

Jeff


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

Infinite said:


> So I think the best idea would be to create the group and get a web page. Put together some promotional material that highlights the goals and objectives of the group.
> 
> Then we would do some pr releases to get some press and hopefully get some exposure we could capatalize on. We could then either enter schools with a more traditional voilence is bad what to do in the case of violence. Meanwhile we use that time to estabilish credability and influence some of the school behavior.
> 
> OR we could simply start with the premis that the good somaritan law is there fore a reson and try to impress that apon the administrations but if we don't offer anything to the student body I'm not sure if they would talk to us.


Great Ideas!

I think I will start looking into the legalities behind starting a non-profit organization.  This has been getting to me for years now, and it just seems to be getting worse in some regards.  I might as well get off of my *** and try to get a little more active about it!

Jeff


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> People are encouraged to have a 'victim' attitude for two reasons I think. Firstly it pays to be a victim, literally. The compensation culture is rife with people suing over anything that they can and the courts awarding big payouts. The other reason is that whatever happens that is even slightly 'not nice' you need to go to counselling for it! As people are fond of pointing out over here, Londoners got all throught the Blitz in the war with needing counselling yet now people are told they need help for the slightest little thing. It is weakening people and it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy,they feel unable to cope with life and won't be able to defend themselves.


That is a great point that I had never considered in this.  I'm going to have to pull out my thinking cap on that.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 10, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> People are encouraged to have a 'victim' attitude for two reasons I think. Firstly it pays to be a victim, literally. The compensation culture is rife with people suing over anything that they can and the courts awarding big payouts. The other reason is that whatever happens that is even slightly 'not nice' you need to go to counselling for it! As people are fond of pointing out over here, Londoners got all throught the Blitz in the war with needing counselling yet now people are told they need help for the slightest little thing. It is weakening people and it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy,they feel unable to cope with life and won't be able to defend themselves.


 
Unfortunately this is so true!


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The compensation culture is rife with people suing over anything that they can and the courts awarding big payouts


 
Happens over her too, ALOT...


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## Infinite (Jan 10, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> Great Ideas!
> 
> I think I will start looking into the legalities behind starting a non-profit organization.  This has been getting to me for years now, and it just seems to be getting worse in some regards.  I might as well get off of my *** and try to get a little more active about it!
> 
> Jeff



It isn't so hard you need a board and have to keep track of all the money you accept vs what you do with it. At the end of the year you have to have a balance of zero.

If you get it going I have a server I can host the website on for free. I'd be willing to help out as well.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

Infinite said:


> It isn't so hard you need a board and have to keep track of all the money you accept vs what you do with it. At the end of the year you have to have a balance of zero.
> 
> If you get it going I have a server I can host the website on for free. I'd be willing to help out as well.


Great!


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

Infinite said:


> It isn't so hard you need a board and have to keep track of all the money you accept vs what you do with it. At the end of the year you have to have a balance of zero.
> 
> If you get it going I have a server I can host the website on for free. I'd be willing to help out as well.


Ok, is what I meant to say before hitting enter was a little more detailed that just "great!"

I'll do net research on this for the next couple of days, and when I get back from a soon upcoming business trip, I'll put a lot of thought into if I'll be able to do this or not.  Right now, I don't see why I couldn't.  This could turn into a very good thing I think.

Jeff


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## tempus (Jan 10, 2007)

One solution would be to get out and vote when the time comes.  I do not want to bring up a politcal debate, since they get nasty, but the last congressional election I think voter turn out was only around 42%.  If the public allows people into positions of power that are anti-gun, anti-defense, license this and that, then it gets harder to change things.  Just my two cents.

-Tempus


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 10, 2007)

that part of the victim culture is really just a small segment of the problem.  people in general are taking less and less responsibility for all facets of their lives (not just self-protection).

"i'm an alcoholic because my father was an alcoholic"
"i can't get a good job because the system is against me"
"i'm a jerk because my parents hit me when i was a kid"
"i can't get ahead because i'm a member of a minority"

one thing we can all do right away to help fight this is to make sure we exemplify the opposite attitude any and every time we're within earshot of a child.  

nazi germany happened because of how children grew up in world war 1 and the depression.

the current situation in the middle east happened because of how children grew up after the creation of israel.

our society will be fixed by adults seeing to it that children grow up with a sense of power, honor and responsibility.


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## Infinite (Jan 10, 2007)

Lots of good input guys.

So the new org should,

Exemplify personal responsibility

Clearly define what is accept and not acceptable for self defense

Provide resources for people who have questions about self defense

Work with schools to educate children

Work with schools to educate princpals and school boards on the hazards of duel punishment techniques

Reach out to LEO's public facing orginizations to assist and combine resources

Possibly:
Work with the government to change laws
Possibly provide monetary support for people (ACLU Style)
Work with lawyers in an attempt to provide free legal guidence for schools on the issues


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## Tez3 (Jan 10, 2007)

I'll certainly help if I can, I'm very tired of the 'victim' attitude, for one thing it detracts from the suffering of real victims and another I'd like to see our children growing up strong not whinging! I was reading the other day about some people who were claiming they had been traumatised and were suffering so much they were sueing a holiday companyfor a lot of mony. The problem? They'd been on a cruise and there'd been a storm one night. The holiday company 'owed' them compensation they said.
 I'm not a believer in the 'good old days' but I do think we need to get back some attitude that reflect self reliance and self respect a bit more.As martial artists we, I imagine, all probably have this ingrained in us if we've been training for a while! Self confidence is something I've noticed a lot of children lacking these days too, the thing seem to be these days if you don't at first succeed, give up and live off the state! I am still idealistic even at my age and I do believe so much in martial arts as an answer for a lot of things! I shall launch into a lecture any minute lol!but anything I can help with, I will!


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## KenpoTex (Jan 10, 2007)

great thread!

This is definately a problem and ultimately, I think the root of the issue is that most people don't want to take responsibility for their actions in any area of their lives. If something bad happens, as others have said, it's always "someone else's fault," or "it's not my mess to clean up." I also think Tez3 made a great point regarding the "victim's rewards."

As far as this relates to violence and/or self-defense. I personally feel that a lot of the problem is that people have just become "wimps." It's not politically-correct to stand up and defend yourself because that means the "poor, underpriviledged, misunderstood individual" (not criminal, that's a harsh term...) might be unsuccessfull in his goal of victimizing us. 
And again, we shouldn't defend ourselves, that's what the police are for... 

Some states have already started to address this issue with the expanded "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand Your Ground" laws (Florida is a great example). This is something that, IMO, needs to happen everywhere. If people can get used to the idea that it really is OKAY to stand up for yourself, I think we might see a shift in the prevailing winds so to speak.

Then again...we could just re-institute the _Code Duello_


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 10, 2007)

kenpotex said:


> Then again...we could just re-institute the _Code Duello_



If I had a nickel for every time that thought crossed my mind each day....


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## KenpoTex (Jan 10, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> If I had a nickel for every time that thought crossed my mind each day....


Glad I'm not the only one


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 10, 2007)

kenpotex said:


> Then again...we could just re-institute the _Code Duello_



sadly, that's no fairer than what we have now (unless you consider that it's easier to learn to fight than it is to amass enough money for a high-end lawyer)..


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## matt.m (Jan 10, 2007)

I am an early 70's baby so I was brought up with the mindset that if you are a victim then you make yourself a weaker person.  I have said outloud that I beg someone to come into my home without firearm.  I feel bad for the person who attacks myself, home or family.

Honestly, I would have every intention of killing someone if they harmed my wife or any other family.  I have seen women or smaller kids get beat up by adult men and hurt them.  I waited till the cops came, told them I had been a Sgt in the Marine Corps, showed them the leg braces....told them what happened and have never had anything negative happen to me judicially.

I have always said that it takes a ton to get me to engage but once the engagement begins it is my turn, I believe it is always my turn until it is over.

I have a couple of teens that live on both sides of me that said, if you raise your voice to people at school then it will get you in school suspension and the one being aggressed upon will be the one in charge.  I am sorry, like the majority of you I come from a different time period mindset.  I don't know what the right answer is, I would tell students as I always have...."Do not let someone aggressively invade you or loved ones living space."

The Marines had a saying that Exile brought up a few months ago...."It is better to be judged by 12 than be planted six feet under."


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## still learning (Jan 10, 2007)

Hello, Everyone is brought up differently.  Your values,your judgements, your personality, your way of life was influence by the people around you.

Teach hate...your kids will hate too!  Teach crimes against people..your kids will learn this too! 

Children are easy influence by the way people behave around them.  We need to start with our children first (teach them to be a good person)!

...over 70% of the crimes in America is cause by replete offenders...in/out of prisons.  When out? do you think there have learn their lessons about being bad?  ....of course NOT!  

Our systems(government)  has not learn it lessons too..because of the easy/get of jail systems today.

The other day in Hawaii they said it cost Hawaii  $42,000 to keep one prisoner in Jail a year.  Cost keep getting higher each year too!

When criminals realize there is NO true punishment?  Why change? ....

Please one thing we can do is be an influence to those around us (especially the children).  BE GOOD..BE HONEST..BE KIND....

The whole world is producing more bad people than good....today the word - terrorist is so common to hear. 

One day when food, water, shelter, and security becomes truely more important than keeping prisoners (bad people) alive.  WE WILL END THEIR LIVES QUICKER AND LIKE Saddam...very quickly...Why keep them alive for? 

These are just my thoughts....30 years ago drugs was a problem in school..30 years later same problems...just different drugs...and 30 years from now ...same drug problems..just different drugs.....Aloha


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