# Differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?



## Ceicei

I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers.  Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.

Thank you,

- Ceicei


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Judo is a sportive version of Jujutsu. Jujutsu/Taijutsu were the main combative empty-hand arts of Japan for many moons. Judo founder, Jigoro Kano (in a nutshell) pared the really lethal stuff from the battlefields out so they could have competitions. Hit some snags around the 2nd world war, but worked through them.

GENERALLY, Judo concentrates more on gaining points by tossing a guy through the air or pinning him to the ground, whereas jujutsu focuses more on twisting joint complexes and kinetic chains in directions they weren't really meant to go, or choking the poor guy until he turns funny colors and starts to smell bad. They each have a bit of the other (i.e., Judo has joint manipulations and jujutsu has throws & pins), but the primary difference between them is the "intent" or "focus", as well as complementary training methods.

Hope it helps,

D.


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## Ceicei

So they aren't two really separate martial arts?  Are they considered generally the same except for training approaches and an emphasis on certain moves?

- Ceicei


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Ceicei said:
			
		

> So they aren't two really separate martial arts? Are they considered generally the same except for training approaches and an emphasis on certain moves?
> 
> - Ceicei


They are considered two (or more?) completely different martial arts. Jujutsu schools are plentiful in Japanese history...kinda like the generic use of the word "karate" or "car"; the next thing you have to do is pare down to "what kind of car? Ford? Toyota? What model of car...Camry? Celica?".

Jujutsu, in Japanese, refers to the martial traditions as related to combat. The "jutsu" suffix usually indicates something akin to "...pragmatic skill of...".  The "do" suffix generally relates to an exercise or skill or path one studies or undertakes for the purpose of personal development, spiritual attainment, or for hobbies' sake.  "Ju  _jutsu_" would be an art about the combat applications of joint entanglements, take-downs, chokes, throws, control holds, weapons disarms (i.e., He has a sword; I don't...now what?).  Ju _do_ would refer to a path to character development of body and mind, through the rigorous practice of a standardized cirriculum set forth by judo founder, Jigoro Kano. (many brands of jujutsu; one brand of judo...at least originally).

Some of the old-school jujutsu guys considered judo to be the watered down McDojo version of jujutsu; other old-school adherents magnetized towards it, believing it represented a logical categorization and amalgamation of techniques widely found in most jujutsu disciplines.

To start judo, Kano -- himself an accomplished jujutsu practitioner -- picked the brains of many jujutsu old-guard guys. Some of the early day pictures from the turn of the century show a young kano posing with a "who's who" of Japanese jujutsu. Some of them stayed around to blend in with the Kodokan (the building, and subsequently the organization, Kano started for housing judo), while others in the old pics returned to their jujutsu roots. Some later guys started in judo, then split the kodokan to find oldsters still teaching jujutsu.

Tai-jutsu, loosely translated, means "the skill of using your body"...the "in combat" aspect is implied by the context and common usage of the word. Some of the old JJ guys used this word, instead of jujutsu, each according to their own lineage/tradition.  Even before the introduction of ninja arts into mainstream U.S. MA scene (they also use the phrase taijutsu to refer to their bare-hand fighting systems), some of the schools that started as Judo, but looked to leave their sport roots behind and dedicate themselves to combat-focused training changed their names back to taijutsu (more in Europe & Africa, then the US...most judo players on this side of the pond went back to calling it jujutsu if they opted out of the judo world).

Ideally (and I use the word loosely, since now there are multiple judo federations/associations), there would be one brand of Judo, with everybody the world over doing the same thing.  Jujutsu, on the other hand, would be 20 different guys from 20 different lineages, taking 20+ different approaches to dealing with a common attack (like, say, a wrist-grab).

Regards,

Dave


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## Ceicei

Thank you very much for your explanation. You have helped me to understand more and will share your information with my friend. I suspect he is considering the possibility of taking up one or the other as his potential martial art. I learned a lot too!

- Ceicei


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## Ceicei

I was correct, my friend is thinking about taking either jujutsu or judo.  Right now, he is eyeing an eight week community education (run by the local jr college) judo class that goes one hour per week to see if he likes it. He will probably look into a jujutsu class after he tries out the judo.

However, he doesn't want to go to the judo class alone (since he has absolutely no martial arts experience of any kind), and wants me to go with him.  He feels kind of nervous.

The instructor of that class runs one of the schools that belong to a well known martial arts chain, so I am guessing the instructor is much more than just adequate.  I haven't decided whether to go along with him, but he does need some morale support.  I realize that this class is a very short, probably a very basic version (eight hours worth) of their curriculum and  designed to make it enjoyable for a person to possibly sign up with their school.

Generally, what can both of us expect?  For me specifically, would I potentially encounter any confusion if I go in there with my American Kenpo background?

Thank you again in advance for any replies.

- Ceicei


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I was correct, my friend is thinking about taking either jujutsu or judo. Right now, he is eyeing an eight week community education (run by the local jr college) judo class that goes one hour per week to see if he likes it. He will probably look into a jujutsu class after he tries out the judo.
> 
> However, he doesn't want to go to the judo class alone (since he has absolutely no martial arts experience of any kind), and wants me to go with him. He feels kind of nervous.
> 
> The instructor of that class runs one of the schools that belong to a well known martial arts chain, so I am guessing the instructor is much more than just adequate. I haven't decided whether to go along with him, but he does need some morale support. I realize that this class is a very short, probably a very basic version (eight hours worth) of their curriculum and designed to make it enjoyable for a person to possibly sign up with their school.
> 
> Generally, what can both of us expect? For me specifically, would I potentially encounter any confusion if I go in there with my American Kenpo background?
> 
> Thank you again in advance for any replies.
> 
> - Ceicei


If it's a judo intro, you could expect some skills that would probably be quite complementary to your kenpo. You could expect some breakfalls training (how to land on the ground without getting maimed), a couple of simple throws, and probably some drills for simple defense items such as how to squirm out of frontal choke assaults, wristgrabs, and the like.  Since grappling has taken off in the last 15 years, there may even be some fundamentals of grappling.  In judo, the 1st coiuple lessons usually look like some pins and holds, how to get and keep them, and some tips on how to get out of them.  Sounds fun.

Shouldn't interfere with your kenpo training.  There is a guy named David German who was one of Mr. Parkers blacks from the days of yore; he's done quite a nice job of training judo & misc. ground/grappling skills w/o diminishing his kenpo "presence".

If you go, let me know whatcha think!

Dave


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## Ceicei

I decided to sign up for "Intro to Judo" community ed. class, but my friend is still kind of intimidated about going. He just found out the instructor is a FEMALE 5th dan. I pointed out that if she is 5th dan, that generally means she knows her stuff well. 

I think it's ironic that he had been trying to persuade me to go with him; now our roles are switched, I'm trying to persuade him to stick with his plan. I pointed out to him that he doesn't have to start out with Judo. There are a lot of other styles out there he could try. Since he had been thinking about Jujutsu too, I suggested he can try that one out instead. He says he will, if I go with him. :idunno:

Anyway, I'll let you know how first day with Judo class goes.

- Ceicei


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I decided to sign up for "Intro to Judo" community ed. class, but my friend is still kind of intimidated about going. He just found out the instructor is a FEMALE 5th dan. I pointed out that if she is 5th dan, that generally means she knows her stuff well.
> 
> I think it's ironic that he had been trying to persuade me to go with him; now our roles are switched, I'm trying to persuade him to stick with his plan. I pointed out to him that he doesn't have to start out with Judo. There are a lot of other styles out there he could try. Since he had been thinking about Jujutsu too, I suggested he can try that one out instead. He says he will, if I go with him. :idunno:
> 
> Anyway, I'll let you know how first day with Judo class goes.
> 
> - Ceicei


If it's just about her being female, try to talk him in to attending just the 1st couple classes (leaving him an out). When he gets there, and she needs a demo dummy, let him know that reservations are best confirmed or denied by experience, and that feeling is believing.  After she dumps him onto the mat a couple times via superior technique, he may very well have a change of mind. Esp if he's a big guy... 2 things happen: 1) it's humbling. 2) the male ego says, "wow, if she could do that then just think about what I -- the mighty male -- could do with the same technology!".

Have fun!

D.


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## Gaston

As my most resent training has been as a competitive judoka for the past 12 yrs.  I have seen many clubs and their styles differ greatly. I have found that a persons impression of Judo, Jiu-Jitsu or any similar art forms can be greatly influenced by the sensei.  Some schools are primarily interested in training within the Olympic rules purely for the "sport". They never teach or train in any way they can't duplicate in a tournament. Other dojos (like ours lucky me) are interested in perfecting all possible techniques and encourage creativity for mutual improvement.  Our Sensei is more than happy to allow us to demonstrate new moves even if they ""just came to us".  Other Schools tend to border on the MMA route.  Their members tend to unnecessarily injure each other in "ego matches".  Being able to state the difference between two similar arts would be like saying Judo is ______ and no one disagreeing with you.


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## Ceicei

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> If it's a judo intro, you could expect some skills that would probably be quite complementary to your kenpo. You could expect some breakfalls training (how to land on the ground without getting maimed), a couple of simple throws, and probably some drills for simple defense items such as how to squirm out of frontal choke assaults, wristgrabs, and the like. Since grappling has taken off in the last 15 years, there may even be some fundamentals of grappling. In judo, the 1st coiuple lessons usually look like some pins and holds, how to get and keep them, and some tips on how to get out of them. Sounds fun.
> 
> Shouldn't interfere with your kenpo training. There is a guy named David German who was one of Mr. Parkers blacks from the days of yore; he's done quite a nice job of training judo & misc. ground/grappling skills w/o diminishing his kenpo "presence".
> 
> If you go, let me know whatcha think!
> 
> Dave


Attended my first class today. I was a tad late because I went to the wrong town and realized their dojang was in the next town (the two towns blend together that the only way to know there's a difference is seeing a sign between them and street names are the same for both).

When I got there, I saw ten students on the mat doing drills. they did "ninja rolls" or forward rolls. Nice to see something familiar. I'm sure they have a different name for that. They were all yellow belts with a word written on one end in black marker (starts with the letter H and I think ended with yi or gi. The word is identical for all of them, so I am guessing it is probably the name of a rank??? They wore tan colored, very long judogi. I had worn my heavyweight blue karate gi as the instructor said I could (since it is only an 8 week community ed class). I wore my white belt as I didn't feel comfortable wearing my green kenpo belt. I found out later I was the only beginner who signed up. My friend chickened out. 

The instructor motioned me to just join in. By the time I got into line, I only did one ninja roll before they switched to front breakfalls. Very odd. It reminded me of someone falling and almost going splat, but landing on only the forearms and the balls of their feet in a splayed fashion. New type of breakfall for me. Unfortunately, in attempting to follow along, I hyperextended my right big toe  . Next, we did back breakfalls (also not new), and side breakfalls (different than how I learned them). We then had to do a front breakfall and only crawl on arms and balls of feet all the way across the mat, followed by umm, not sure what it's called, but going on the side like a breakfall, then switching to the other side while moving forward across the mat, kind of snaking our way across. 

Once done with these drills, we practiced five different kinds of pins. The first one had me sitting next to my partner right front leg forward and the left leg bent back. My right hand wraps around her neck holding her collar and my left hand goes under and behind her right arm meet to my right hand. I put my torso on her and squeeze tightly while my partner tries to get out. Second pin I learned was similar to the first, except my right leg is bent at the knee. My partner's right arm, however, is on the right side of my head and pinned under my torso. Third pin I learned was kneeling above her head, hooking my hands under her to grasp her belt, pulling her up towards my stomach, then laying down on top of her with my legs out. Fourth pin was kneeling by her side, wrapping my right arm behind her left leg to grasp her belt, and my left arm grasping her back collar, and putting my weight on her. The last pin I learned was kneeling by her head, wrapping my right arm around her right arm (like a snake) and grasping her collar, my left arm goes palm up behind her back, pulling her up towards me, and laying my torso upon her. 

I learned some sweeps also, stepping to the outside and sweeping. Another sweep is stepping inside between her legs and hooking my leg behind either of her knees. After these drills, they had matches. Since I was the only beginner and all the others were one year yellow belts, I didn't think the instructor would put me in a match, but she did. We had a struggle for about five minutes (my partner says I'm extemely strong which made it challenging for her :idunno: Maybe my weightlifting work at my dojo paid off). Eventually, her skill won out as she finally swept me, but we had a tussle trying to pin (I spent most of the time trying to avoid her pins and couldn't put any pin on her .) She finally was able to pin me.

The instructor congratulated me for doing really well, but said I needed to relax more (when we were holding on to each other at the beginning of my match, I was avoiding her feet like crazy). She introduced me to the rest of the class and told them I was a green belt in Kempo (I told her afterwards it is actually American Kenpo). All in all, it was a very tough workout and a good experience.

I just wish I knew all the names of these moves. It's all so foreign to me.

- Ceicei


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## Gaston

Ah Yes, swimming in uncharted waters :jaws: 

The terminology is often confusing at first. I will give the translations linked to your description so you will know the technique (Waza) I am referring to. I am in no means mocking you; we were all there at one time, unless you speak perfect Japanese. To start with migi is right and hidari is left.  Ukemi-Waza or falling techniques are broken into 1. Ushiro ukemi (back break falls)  2. Yoko ukemi (side break falls)  3. Mae ukemi (front break fall or _falling and almost going splat, but landing on only the forearms and the balls of their feet in a splayed fashion_ always turn your head right or left) sorry about your toe. 4. Mae-mawari-ukemi (ninja rolls or forward tumbling break fall) 



Im not sure what was on their belt, perhaps a brand name? The rank for Yellow translated is (Gokyu 5th kyu).  The _kind of snaking our way across the floor thing_ is commonly called shrimping. If youre moving head first it is used to withdraw your lower body from under your opponent. The _crawling on arms and balls of feet_ (common name is G.I Joes).  

_Different kinds of pins_ are classified as katame-waza (grappling techniques) sub category osae-komi-waza (hold-down techniques), The main point with all hold-down techniques is opposing directions of force. Ill describe Hon Kesa Gatame (basic sash hold) because except for the _hands together comment, and gabbing the collar_. These two might indicate changing Hon to Makura, and basic to pillow_.  The first one had me sitting next to my partner right front leg forward and the left leg bent back._ #1. Position your right armpit to their right arm pit, legs just as you stated, and remain perpendicular and low. _My right hand wraps around her neck holding her collar_ #2. Press their collar (Eri) straight to the floor.  _My left hand goes under and behind her right arm meet to my right hand._ #3. Here is we again enter the grey area. I will go with Hon or basic sash hold, trap instead their forearm under your arm deeply, and grab the underside of their sleeve (Sode) near armpit. #4. Leverage them tight against you by prying up with your hand and down with your armpit and slightly rotating away from that arm. Oppose that by combining #2 along with driving with your feet and pinning them to the floor like a bug through their armpit    _I put my torso on her and squeeze tightly while my partner tries to get out._ #5. Now their feeling the pressure.





Ummmm? Sounds sort of like Kata Gatame (shoulder hold) but more detail would help. For example are you trying to apply pressure similar to a triangle choke (Sankaku jime), but with the arms? Are you face up or down at the hips?_  Second pin I learned was similar to the first, except my right leg is bent at the knee. My partner's right arm, however, is on the right side of my head and pinned under my torso._



Kami shiho gatame (Upper four-cornered hold) or _Third pin I learned was kneeling above her head, hooking my hands under her to grasp her belt, pulling her up towards my stomach, then lying down on top of her with my legs out._ That sounds perfect, just one little tip. #1. Force their head to face one direction pressing with your abdomen. Now brace a little wider on that side because you know she will not attempt to roll out in the direction that endangers her own neck. Forgive me a cruel chuckle, sorry.



Kuzure kami shiho gatame (modified upper four-cornered hold) _The last pin I learned was kneeling by her head, wrapping my right arm around her right arm (like a snake) and grasping her collar, my left arm goes palm up behind her back, pulling her up towards me, and laying my torso upon her._ Great job, same tip as above make sure you force their face away from the arm you are wrapping. 



Yoko shiho gatame (side four-cornered hold)  _Fourth pin was kneeling by her right side, wrapping my right arm behind her left leg to grasp her belt._ #1. Pry her towards you by pressing down with your right shoulder and up with your right hand.  _My left arm grasps her back collar, and putting my weight on her._ #2. Left hand under head gripping at the armpit, now leverage (rotate) her head away from you. This encourages her not to struggle (shrimp) to hard. Counter technique: left leg over your head forcing you down or turning towards you, thus the head control. So sorry are you stuck lol.


In Nage-waza (throwing techniques) a small or minor technique is referred to as Ko in this case like crossing your feet.  A large or major technique is referred to as O in this case like your feet moving away from one another. 
_I learned some sweeps, also, stepping to the outside and sweeping _Major Outer Reaping (Osoto Gari). #1. Lock your hand holding their sleeve to your same hip hard. #2. Then squat slightly and watch their balance disappear, as they try to hold your weight with one hand. _Another sweep is stepping inside between her legs and hooking my leg behind either of her __knees_ (preferably clipping the heel). _After these drills, they had matches. Since I was the only beginner and all the others were one year yellow belts, I didn't think the instructor would put me in a match, but she did. We had a struggle for about five minutes (my partner says I'm extremely strong which made it challenging for her Maybe my weightlifting work at my dojo paid off). Eventually, her skill won out as she finally swept me, but we had a tussle trying to pin (I spent most of the time trying to avoid her pins and couldn't put any pin on her .) She finally was able to pin me.

The instructor congratulated me for doing really well, but said I needed to relax more (when we were holding on to each other at the beginning of my match, I was avoiding her feet like crazy). She introduced me to the rest of the class and told them I was a green belt in Kempo (I told her afterwards it is actually American Kenpo). All in all, it was a very tough workout and a good experience.

I just wish I knew all the names of these moves. It's all so foreign to me._

Welcome to the world of grappling (Judo) I hope this helps.


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## arnisador

Check out http://www.judoinfo.com for lots of info. on Judo. It's an excellent resource.


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## Cobra

Isn't Jiu-Jitsu more effective than judo in a street fight since judo is to result of taking all the "dangerous" locks and attacks out?


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## arnisador

The counterargument is that you can train your Judo techniques full-force against a resisting opponent, so what you do know you know better.


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## loki09789

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers. Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> - Ceicei


With the volume of posts, I am pretty sure this has been said already but:

Judo:  Sport variation
JiuJutsu:  combat system


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## Ceicei

Second Judo class (my community ed class meets once a week for eight weeks).

I arrived to class on time, now that I learned where the dojang was located. There was a TKD class before mine that was running late, so we had to wait a bit.

Once we got started, the instructor had judo trivia. She gave us questions about judo history and terminology and the students gave answers. She did ask me a question and I was able to answer correctly, :uhyeah:  thanks to Gaston and MartialTalk!   If a student gives the wrong answer, the entire class had to do push ups.

After that, we did some drills and did a lot of forward roll breakfalls (mae-mawari-ukemi), increasing the heights by having us jump over various obstacles.

When through with the drills, the instructor came to me and asked what I wanted to do. I enjoy doing pins and I would like to do them, but mindful of the fact I hyperextended my big toe last week doing front breakfalls (mae-ukemi), I told her I needed more practice with all the breakfalls. She nodded and had one of her good students work with me doing that. It was pretty much all I did through the class time, practicing falls until it was time for randori.

In randori, I was paired with a much taller and stronger woman. She apparently had a lot more experience than the one from last week. She's very swift! She did a nage-waza on me that I hadn't seen before (I'm trying to locate what it is in my judo book), and quickly had me pinned tightly in a shoulder hold (kata-gatame). She did all that in less than a minute. :asian: Can't complain. I have a lot of learning to do.

After class ended, my instructor came over to talk. I had noticed that she wrote the terminology differently. She explained that they are the same, but it's different because of Japanese dialects. As proof, she pulled out four different Judo manuals and showed that even among these books, the writing isn't consistent. Some have the word zemp instead of mae, others have shiho instead of yoko. 

At the last class, I mentioned to you that the students' yellow belts had a word written in black marker on them. I asked what the word meant, and was told it means "yellow". I thought yellow is "kiiro" and doesn't start with the letter "h", but I suppose it may be because of the dialect difference.

I enjoyed this class too, even though I got very sore from doing the breakfalls so much. :boing2: Gotta work those muscles!!

- Ceicei


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## arnisador

In Judo more than some other arts they do tend to pair people up with less regard to rank/experience. Well, it gives you a chance to learn I suppose!

Thanks for the update. It's always interesting to see how people view these arts. I study the closely related BJJ so it's interesting to me.


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## auxprix

Let me tell you though, arnisador, when you're first starting out it's a lot easier on you to spar with a higher ranking judoka than a beginner. The experienced fighters know how to throw properly, and not hurt you. When I was still a greenhorn, I was paired up with another whitebelt. He completed an ugly throw (for those in the know, I think it was a harai-goshi, but it was hard to tell) and almost broke my jaw by landing on my face. From that point on, I avoided fighting whitebelts for quite a while.


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## arnisador

Good point, and I agree. Still, it can be frustrating when you actually are playing, not practicing!


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## Zujitsuka

arnisador said:
			
		

> The counterargument is that you can train your Judo techniques full-force against a resisting opponent, so what you do know you know better.



Correct sir!


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## Ceicei

Im back again with another report. The week prior, I missed going (which would have been my third class) because of family issues, so there is nothing to post. I did go to the most recent class (my fourth).

I took a good look at the word written on all the other students belts in black marker. The word is hirokyu. Im told it means yellow belt. I wonder if the choice of using H instead of K for the Japanse word for yellow (kiro or kiiro) is a difference of Japanese dialect or a Hawaiian form of spelling (my instructor is Hawaiian)? 

I learned a few more new things. I wish I knew the names of what I learned (the challenge of being deaf and not understanding a Japanese language, which apparently is difficult to lipread). Consulting with Judo books indicate there are similarities (maybe a few inches off with certain footwork or hand placement makes it into a different technique), so Im unsure of what exactly was it that I did. I suppose time and practice will tell eventually when I finally learn which is which. First of all, I want to thank Gaston for his earlier posts to this thread and private emails that enabled me to learn to understand the Judo terminology. I also appreciate the advice from others who suggested good books to use as reference. 

Now my report: 

We started off with our usual warm-up stretches and drills (ukemi-waza and shrimping). We reviewed the nage-waza I had learned from previous classes, Osoto-gari and Ouchi-gari. I feel pretty comfortable with them now.  We moved on to other kinds of throws to practice. 

These are the new ones I learned. 

I stepped my right foot slightly to the left, ahead of my left foot. At the same time, my right hand let go of the lapel and goes under her right arm and up to the top of her right shoulder. Since my right foot is ahead of my left foot, I twist around until my back is to my partner and my feet are close an parallel. While holding on to her arm, I continue the momentum by moving my back downwards and pulling her arm forward and down. I bend over a bit slightly and have her flip over in front of me. 

I felt uncomfortable having my feet so close together. In my mind, I feel that having my feet apart and going low would give me a better balance stance than having them close together (in other words, a pencil standing on end isnt as stable), but I did learn that having feet close together did give me better leverage to move her over. :idunno: I guess what I expect or learned elsewhere doesnt necessarily translate to another style. 

We did the throws on both sides, left and right (hidari and migi).

Next, we did another variation of the above throw. Instead of my right hand letting go of her lapel, I just kept my hold on it, and moved my feet/body around the same way, going downward with my body. The only difference is my right elbow goes into her armpit and under her arm. Even though just holding on her gi doesnt give me a feeling of a secure hold, the elbow being there under her right arm gave me the leverage to pull her over. 

The next throw I learned was to drop my right hand off her label and around her waist. I use my left hand to pull her over while doing the same footwork, but there are two slight differences. My right hip in one type of throw, is in front of her left hip, and the second type of throw, my right hip is in front of her right hip. 

In all four of these new throws I learned, my feet are kept close together and parallel.

Next, I learned one more throw, but the footwork was different and easier to do the throw (for me anyway). I step with my right foot further to the left ahead of my left foot. I move my left foot slightly forward and pivoting it until my back is to her. Instead of moving my right foot closer to my left foot, I just lift my right heel and pivot it onto the balls. Of course, while Im doing this footwork, my right hand is still on her lapel and my left hand on her sleeve, pulling her forward with my rotation. Essentially, I am tripping my partner backwards over my right leg. 

After we practiced these throws, we reviewed the pins (osae-komi-waza) we had learned from previous classes. We practiced the hon-kesa-gatame, kata-gatame, kami-shiho-gatame, kazure-kami-shiho-gatame, and yoko-shiho-gatame.

At the end of the class, we usually do randori with resisting partners, but this time, it is a modified form of randori. The instructor wanted us all on our knees. The goal is to attempt to put each other into one of the five osae-komi-waza. Because we are on our knees, we cant do throws very well, but have to focus on off-balancing each other and pinning.

When it was my turn, and we struggled a bit (my randori partner is the same one from my first class randori). She was getting tired, so my partner tried to welsh out on me by laying herself flat on the mat, belly down, breathing hard. I looked over at my instructor and she just shrugged, indicating I need to keep trying. So I then slid my right arm under her right armpit and chin to try to grab her collar (left side). At the same time, I slid my left arm under her right leg and up between her legs to try to reach her belt, intending to flip her over and do one of those side pins. When she realized what I was going to do, she tried to reach her right leg over my back towards my head but I dodged that by moving down low towards her head instead, out of reach of her leg. She then did a very hard shrimp and got out (by breaking my left hold off her belt). She got up on her knees and then was able to break my balance and pinned me with a kata-gatame. 

Ah well. Maybe one of these days, I will learn ways of how to get out of those osae-komi-waza. 

All in all, a good class session!

- Ceicei


----------



## Gaston

These are the new ones I learned. 



*Ippon seoi nage (one-arm shoulder throw)*

This throw is easiest to perform keeping two small points in mind.  One lock your right elbow crease tight to their armpit (think pinch them with your biceps). Two maintain the lock and bring that elbow (right) to touch your left knee.  You can even try it without a partner (uki).
I stepped my right foot slightly to the left, ahead of my left foot. At the same time, my right hand let go of the lapel and goes under her right arm and up to the top of her right shoulder (at this time bring left foot back slightly behind your right, as this is your driving foot). Since my right foot is ahead of my left foot, I twist around until my back is to my partner and my feet are close and nearly parallel. While holding on to her arm, I continue the momentum by moving my back downwards and pulling her arm forward and down. I bend over a bit slightly and have her flip over in front of me. 

I felt uncomfortable having my feet so close together. In my mind, I feel that having my feet apart and going low would give me a better balance stance than having them close together (in other words, a pencil standing on end isnt as stable), but I did learn that having feet close together did give me better leverage to move her over.  
This is very true however each throw is a direct response to your opponents position. This particular throw is best demonstrated in the first throw of Kata. Just ask for a demonstration of ippon seoi nage (kata style) and youll see. 

I guess what I expect or learned elsewhere doesnt necessarily translate to another style. 

Sometimes the translation gets garbled dont disregard old lessons just yet. 



*Morote seoi nage (two-armed shoulder throw)*



Same tips with the feet position, not quite parallel. As for the secure hold try grabbing initially lower on the lapel. Then pull up to loosen the lapel you are holding. That way when you step in you can rotate your hand palm down and keep your wrist flexed (like flexing your biceps). I am assuming that your hand and wrist have gone the other way palm up and wrist extended.  We all did, the same thing at first and it is quite uncomfortable, so no worries. Also remember to pull across your body with the other hand to keep her firmly on your back.
Next, we did another variation of the above throw. Instead of my right hand letting go of her lapel, I just kept my hold on it, and moved my feet/body around the same way, going downward with my body. The only difference is my right elbow goes into her armpit and under her arm. Even though just holding on her gi doesnt give me a feeling of a secure hold, the elbow being there under her right arm gave me the leverage to pull her over. Try thinking of it as a pivot for her to fall over, and itll work better. 



*Uki goshi (Floating hip)*



Bear with me this explanation might sound odd.  Stand in front of a mirror with your feet mostly parallel.  Shifting your hips left and right you will see them raise and lower.  Picture someone standing just behind you and to your right. As you both shift your hips to the left, yours will be at their low point and theirs will be at their high point.  Position your hands as you stated left hand on sleeve and right around their back. Lock her left hip to your right and as you move back to your right they lift off the floor without you seeming to pick them up.   



*O goshi   (Major hip)*

The next throw I learned was to drop my right hand off her label and around her waist. I use my left hand to pull her over while doing the same footwork, my right hip is in front of her right hip. Step in with bent knees lock on as you spring up. 

My right hip in one type of throw Uki goshi is in front of her left hip, and the second type of throw, O goshi   my right hip is in front of her right hip. 

In all four of these new throws I learned, my feet are kept close together and parallel.


*Tai otoshi (body drop) *

Maybe?? The backwards comment makes me question if I am describing the right throw. So can you get back to me on this one thanks.
Next, I learned one more throw, but the footwork was different and easier to do the throw (for me anyway). I step with my right foot further to the left ahead of my left foot. I move my left foot slightly forward and pivoting it until my back is to her. Instead of moving my right foot closer to my left foot, I just lift my right heel and pivot it onto the balls. Of course, while Im doing this footwork, my right hand is still on her lapel and my left hand on her sleeve, pulling her forward with my rotation. Essentially, I am tripping my partner backwards?? over my right leg. 

All in all, a good class session!

- Ceicei


----------



## Bod

Ceicei:



> She was getting tired, so my partner tried to welsh out on me by laying herself flat on the mat, belly down, breathing hard.



1. Stand astride your partner facing in the same direction as her.
2. Bend at the knees and grab the belt, your back absolutely straight.
3. Stand, holding the belt pulling them up in the middle.
4. Hook your feet in underneath them and kneel down, being careful (at first) of twisting your ankles.
5. Grab their collars or other convenient part.
6. Roll sideways to the left or right taking them with you.

From there, choke them, or if that is not part of the exercise, scramble out halfway through the roll, and attempt to pin.


----------



## Bod

p.s. On the scrambling out part:

Try climbing up her back (with your feet, while holding her collar, as if shinning up a lamp-post, but horizontally) with her sitting in front of you. This will bring your whole body up near her head. This is a very good position for a choke, but you could then hold her shoulders to the mat, and smother her with your belly by 'going over the top'. Now you are laying face down with her underneath on her back, your head on her stomach your stomach on her face.

This is not a common method of getting a hold down, because a choke is a much better option 'from the back', but if you are playing at pinning then it is an idea.


----------



## arnisador

I always liked the body drop throw.


----------



## Gaston

Bod said:
			
		

> Ceicei:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Stand astride your partner facing in the same direction as her.
> 2. Bend at the knees and grab the belt, your back absolutely straight.
> 3. Stand, holding the belt pulling them up in the middle.
> 4. Hook your feet in underneath them and kneel down, being careful (at first) of twisting your ankles.
> 5. Grab their collars or other convenient part.
> 6. Roll sideways to the left or right taking them with you.
> 
> From there, choke them, or if that is not part of the exercise, scramble out halfway through the roll, and attempt to pin.


 
A small point in #4  keeping your toes pointed out can help to prevent a sprained ankle. Until you have decided what direction you are taking them, then you can adjust your feet  accordingly.


----------



## Kevin Walker

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers. Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> - Ceicei


Hi Guys,

In my humble opinion and four decades of study on this topic; There are two main differences between Ju-do and Ju-jitsu: First Dr. Jigoro Kano removed all the dangerous techniques from Ju-jitsu and distilled it into his Ju-do; and second, ju-jitsu is based on 'leverage', while Ju-do is based on 'balance'.

If you read a first edition of KODOKAN JUDO by Dr. Jigoro Kano, he explained that in his repetoire of Judo training, the ratio of practice is: 80% Randori (free practice), 17% Kata, and 3% Shiai (tournament).  He wanted his Judo to be a life long practice for the improvement of human character, not just a sport to win medals.  It takes a long time to learn Judo.

Quickly, during the Meiji Restoration (1868-1910) in Japan, the Samurai were outlawed as a distinct class, as well as the dangerous martial arts.  Thus the formidible Aiki-jitsu became Aiki-do, the lethal Ken-jitsu became Ken-do, and street fighting Ju-jitsu became Ju-do.  [I hyphenated these names to emphasize that they are two distinct words in Japanese.]  This is when the jitsu/do distinction came into being: 'jitsu' signifying mortal combat while 'do' would designate a more humane practice.  It is more humane for Japanese Police to footsweep or throw rioters with Ju-do than it would be for them to break arms and dislocate necks with Ju-jitsu!!

Combat Judo is simply jujitsu.  Brazilian Jujitsu is simply Judo with jujitsu techniques reinserted.  Any attempt to modify Judo into a practical street fighting system would be just a reinvention of jujitsu!

Dr. Jigoro Kano was a true genius, he earned his PhD in Education, spoke two languages fluently (German & English), and invented Judo at age 22!!

So if you want to be a street fighter, study jujitsu; if you want a combative sport (like boxing or wrestling), study Judo!  Thanks!


----------



## Bod

> Brazilian Jujitsu is simply Judo with jujitsu techniques reinserted.



I'd argue against this. The distinguishing factor betwen BJJ and Judo must be the theory, and extremely clear training materials and methods as presented by the Gracies.

The best of BJJ theory is all about the 'static'. It emphasises posture and positions, followed by the transitions between them ,and the submissions as a result.

The pinacle of (Japanese) Judo theory is all about movement, with position a distant second.

This has lots to do with the two arts' main spheres of interest.


----------



## Kevin Walker

Bod said:
			
		

> I'd argue against this. The distinguishing factor betwen BJJ and Judo must be the theory, and extremely clear training materials and methods as presented by the Gracies.
> 
> The best of BJJ theory is all about the 'static'. It emphasises posture and positions, followed by the transitions between them ,and the submissions as a result.
> 
> The pinacle of (Japanese) Judo theory is all about movement, with position a distant second.
> 
> This has lots to do with the two arts' main spheres of interest.


Hi,

Thanks for this debate!

First, I believe the Gracie patriarch originally learned Judo from one of Dr. Kano's students, then modified it back into their own form of Jujitsu.

Second, the "pinacle of (Japanese) Judo theory" is kuzushi - balance, not movement!  Dr. Kano is equally famous in Japan for his theory of 'kuzushi' as he is for his development of Judo.

Also, Judo and Jujitsu, are two distinct systems, there is very little basis of comparison anymore.  Any modification of Judo into a pragmatic battle system is just a reinvention of jujitsu.  Jujitsu emphasizes leverage, and Judo emphasizes balance. 

One of the few jujitsu techniques Dr. Kano retained in 1882 in his Judo was Juji-gatame, which BJJ tends to overemphasize.

But since it is impossible to apply a Judo technique with out breaking your opponent's balance (methods of 'kuzushi'), then you might possibly be referring to kuzushi (balance) as movement?  Don't forget, Brazilian Jujitsu came directly from Judo, and the Gracie family just reversed what Dr. Kano did by putting back all the jujitsu techniques Dr. Kano removed.

So if what you mean by "static" vs. "movement" is 'leverage' vs. 'balance' as the two distinctions between jujitsu and Judo, then I agree with you.


----------



## Ceicei

I was under the impression that Jujitsu (Japanese) and BJJ were not the same style?  That was why my friend and I inquired about Jujitsu and Judo, as they were more closely related (as least I thought so) than BJJ and Judo.

- Ceicei


----------



## Kevin Walker

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that Jujitsu (Japanese) and BJJ were not the same style? That was why my friend and I inquired about Jujitsu and Judo, as they were more closely related (as least I thought so) than BJJ and Judo.
> 
> - Ceicei


No. Brazilian Jujitsu came directly from Judo and Judo came directly from jujitsu.  The Gracies just went full circle and modified Judo back again into jujitsu.  Jujitsu is jujitsu no matter what country modifies Judo back into its original style.  I can modifiy my 30 years of Judo experience and call it Walker Jujitsu, hype it up as unbeatable, and defeat selected opponents just as the Gracies have.

Dr. Jigoro Kano, after he developed Judo in 1882, sent several of his key students out all over the world to promote his new theory. One of his students went to Russia and taught, and this is where S.A.M.B.O. developed.

Another one of Dr. Kano's instuctors went to Brazil and taught the new Judo, and Gracie was one of the students (this is documented and records exist in the Kodokan in Japan). Gracie modified Judo to make it more practical in a street fight and just reinserted a lot of the same techniques that Dr. Kano removed in the first place, then called it Gracie Jujitsu, or now Brazilian Jujitsu. Again, any modifying of Judo to make it street fight practical is just to reinvent Jujitsu all over again!


----------



## Ceicei

Gaston,

Regarding that last throw I practiced, you inquired about my partner falling over backwards.  It probably would be more accurate to say that while I am rotating and off-balancing her with my pull, she is moving sideways so starts falling sideways.  By the time I complete my rotation and let her go, she ends up on her back on the mat.  Does that make it a "body drop" throw as you had thought or is it something else?

- Ceicei


----------



## Littledragon

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for this debate!
> 
> First, I believe the Gracie patriarch originally learned Judo from one of Dr. Kano's students, then modified it back into their own form of Jujitsu.
> 
> Second, the "pinacle of (Japanese) Judo theory" is kuzushi - balance, not movement! Dr. Kano is equally famous in Japan for his theory of 'kuzushi' as he is for his development of Judo.
> 
> Also, Judo and Jujitsu, are two distinct systems, there is very little basis of comparison anymore. Any modification of Judo into a pragmatic battle system is just a reinvention of jujitsu. Jujitsu emphasizes leverage, and Judo emphasizes balance.
> 
> One of the few jujitsu techniques Dr. Kano retained in 1882 in his Judo was Juji-gatame, which BJJ tends to overemphasize.
> 
> But since it is impossible to apply a Judo technique with out breaking your opponent's balance (methods of 'kuzushi'), then you might possibly be referring to kuzushi (balance) as movement? Don't forget, Brazilian Jujitsu came directly from Judo, and the Gracie family just reversed what Dr. Kano did by putting back all the jujitsu techniques Dr. Kano removed.
> 
> So if what you mean by "static" vs. "movement" is 'leverage' vs. 'balance' as the two distinctions between jujitsu and Judo, then I agree with you.


Actually the first Gracie to learn Ju-Jitsu was Carlos who  learned Japanese Ju-Jitsu from Count Koma and then Helio Gracie and Carlson were the one's to modify the technique into a more modern martial art/combat system and name it Gracie/Brazillian JIu-Jitsu.


----------



## Littledragon

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> No. Brazilian Jujitsu came directly from Judo and Judo came directly from jujitsu. The Gracies just went full circle and modified Judo back again into jujitsu. Jujitsu is jujitsu no matter what country modifies Judo back into its original style. I can modifiy my 30 years of Judo experience and call it Walker Jujitsu, hype it up as unbeatable, and defeat selected opponents just as the Gracies have.
> 
> Dr. Jigoro Kano, after he developed Judo in 1882, sent several of his key students out all over the world to promote his new theory. One of his students went to Russia and taught, and this is where S.A.M.B.O. developed.
> 
> Another one of Dr. Kano's instuctors went to Brazil and taught the new Judo, and Gracie was one of the students (this is documented and records exist in the Kodokan in Japan). Gracie modified Judo to make it more practical in a street fight and just reinserted a lot of the same techniques that Dr. Kano removed in the first place, then called it Gracie Jujitsu, or now Brazilian Jujitsu. Again, any modifying of Judo to make it street fight practical is just to reinvent Jujitsu all over again!


 
According the to book written by Helio Gracie Carlos learned Ju-Jitsu from Count Koma now he Koma might have learned Judo but it was never mentioned but Carlos learned Japanese Ju-Jitsu from Count Koma and taught it to Helio and Carson and they modified it into Brazillian/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.


----------



## psi_radar

Ceicei--

Next time you're doing Five Swords, try inserting the:

Ippon seoi nage (one-arm shoulder throw)

where the right uppercut normally would be. This'll give you a good idea how Kenpo and Judo can mesh. 

So you'd have:

Double block

Handsword

Palmheel

Throw

If the situation allows, I will happily insert a throw into a Kenpo technique as a finish. There's just nothing so... final... as hearing your opponent's body thump into the ground.   :boing2:


----------



## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> According the to book written by Helio Gracie Carlos learned Ju-Jitsu from Count Koma now he Koma might have learned Judo but it was never mentioned but Carlos learned Japanese Ju-Jitsu from Count Koma and taught it to Helio and Carson and they modified it into Brazillian/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.


Hi,

Thanks! Your information appears to be the Gracie version of history.

More historically accurate is: Count Koma, "Conde Koma" is Mitsuyo Maeda - one of Dr. Jigoro Kano's earliest Judo students and one of his most important Judo instructors.

Kano jujitsu, a.k.a. Judo, was taught to Gasto (Carlos?) Gracie in 1917 by Mitsuyo Maeda, a.k.a. Count Koma. Mitsuyo Maeda (along with Sanshiro Sataka) traveled all over South America and Mexico teaching the new method of Judo, a.k.a. Kano jujitsu. It was in Mexico that Mitsuyo Maeda was given the sobriquet of "Conde Koma" for his somber and distinguished looks.

So it is true that Dr. Jigoro Kano's top Judo instructors were sent to South America where in Brazil Judo expert Mitsuyo Maeda taught Gasto (Carlos?) Gracie JUDO! Then the Gracie family modified JUDO back into some form of jujitsu, calling it Gracie/Brazillian Jujitsu. Therefore BJJ is directly derived from Judo.

For verification, please visit: http://www.judobrasil.combr/Komtr.htm

Hope this helps! Thanks.


----------



## ppko

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Thanks! Your information appears to be the Gracie version of history.
> 
> More historically accurate is: Count Koma, "Conde Koma" is Mitsuyo Maeda - one of Dr. Jigoro Kano's earliest Judo students and one of his most important Judo instructors.
> 
> Kano jujitsu, a.k.a. Judo, was taught to Gasto (Carlos?) Gracie in 1917 by Mitsuyo Maeda, a.k.a. Count Koma. Mitsuyo Maeda (along with Sanshiro Sataka) traveled all over South America and Mexico teaching the new method of Judo, a.k.a. Kano jujitsu. It was in Mexico that Mitsuyo Maeda was given the sobriquet of "Conde Koma" for his somber and distinguished looks.
> 
> So it is true that Dr. Jigoro Kano's top Judo instructors were sent to South America where in Brazil Judo expert Mitsuyo Maeda taught Gasto (Carlos?) Gracie JUDO! Then the Gracie family modified JUDO back into some form of jujitsu, calling it Gracie/Brazillian Jujitsu. Therefore BJJ is directly derived from Judo.
> 
> For verification, please visit: http://www.judobrasil.combr/Komtr.htm
> 
> Hope this helps! Thanks.


excellent post very informative

Thanks
PPKO


----------



## Ceicei

psi_radar said:
			
		

> Ceicei--
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Next time you're doing Five Swords, try inserting the:  Ippon seoi nage (one-arm shoulder throw)  where the right uppercut normally would be. This'll give you a good idea how Kenpo and Judo can mesh.
> 
> So you'd have:  Double block, Handsword, Palmheel, Throw
> 
> If the situation allows, I will happily insert a throw into a Kenpo technique as a finish. There's just nothing so... final... as hearing your opponent's body thump into the ground.
> 
> :boing2:


:rofl: 

I'll definitely have to try that out! Two of our kenpo instructors used to take judo. They do know I cross-train with Judo.

- Ceicei


----------



## Ceicei

Bod said:
			
		

> Ceicei:
> 
> 1. Stand astride your partner facing in the same direction as her.
> 2. Bend at the knees and grab the belt, your back absolutely straight.
> 3. Stand, holding the belt pulling them up in the middle.
> 4. Hook your feet in underneath them and kneel down, being careful (at first) of twisting your ankles.
> 5. Grab their collars or other convenient part.
> 6. Roll sideways to the left or right taking them with you.
> 
> From there, choke them, or if that is not part of the exercise, scramble out halfway through the roll, and attempt to pin.


They do allow chokes, so the next time she tries to lay down flat on the mat, I will try what you suggested and perhaps I will be more successful in getting a pin (or a choke).

Thank you,

- Ceicei


----------



## Littledragon

Ok thanks thats why I was asking if Count Koma practiced Judo, thats why they have a picture of Jigoro Kano at my Jiu-Jitsu school.'

Thanks 4 clearing that up.


----------



## Gaston

Ceicei,

*Tai otoshi (body drop)*

With the backwards comment revised it sounds more possible that it is *Tai otoshi.  If it is and you found this throw easy, way to go it takes a lot of coordination for it to feel easy.  * As you already found out when doing this throw, wait/make them step forward with the same foot as the sleeve you are holding.  Then stepping in with the opposite foot just in past and in front of their foot but not touching it.  The space will prevent them from attempting to block by pressing on the back of your knee.  Finish the throw with a whipping motion of the hands: forward-down-and back. Again, good job on picking it up quickly.  As for escaping from osae-komi-waza just remember to create a narrow base of support and a high center of gravity.  It will diminish the effectiveness of any hold down.  If you do feel someone going for a hold down, allow them to (almost) put one on that you are more proficient escaping from.  Its sort of like picking the lesser of two evils.  Keep up the good work.  

Gaston


----------



## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Ok thanks thats why I was asking if Count Koma practiced Judo, thats why they have a picture of Jigoro Kano at my Jiu-Jitsu school.'
> 
> Thanks 4 clearing that up.


Hi Littledragon,

You made me curious, what style of Jiu-Jitsu do you study that has a picture of Dr. Jigoro Kano in its school?

I have seen Danzan-ryu Jiu-Jitsu practiced, and it is virtually identical to Kano's Jiu-Jitsu (Judo), but they pay no homage to Dr. Kano.

Would appreciate any info you could provide,

Yours - A life long martial arts enthusiast!


----------



## Littledragon

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Hi Littledragon,
> 
> You made me curious, what style of Jiu-Jitsu do you study that has a picture of Dr. Jigoro Kano in its school?
> 
> I have seen Danzan-ryu Jiu-Jitsu practiced, and it is virtually identical to Kano's Jiu-Jitsu (Judo), but they pay no homage to Dr. Kano.
> 
> Would appreciate any info you could provide,
> 
> Yours - A life long martial arts enthusiast!


Brazillian/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Tarek:  Where do you train Jiu Jitsu?  Just curious.


----------



## Littledragon

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Tarek: Where do you train Jiu Jitsu? Just curious.


Yamasaki Jiu-Jitsu Academy


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Cool.  Yamasaki has a good reputation.  Do you visit their forum at http://www.jiujitsugear.com/forum ?


----------



## Littledragon

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Cool. Yamasaki has a good reputation. Do you visit their forum at http://www.jiujitsugear.com/forum ?


No, but thanks for the link.


----------



## Kevin Walker

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Brazillian/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu


Thanks!  I've trained in Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu for eight years straight. (And twelve years of Judo, plus a few years of Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, and Tae Kwon Do).   I practiced a little Kodokwan jiu-jitsu, and I've observed Danzan-ryu jiu-jitsu (which is extremely identical to Judo).   I also worked out like a savage with Kendo (which is great stuff). 

I've practiced Ken-jitsu and Hojo-jitsu.  I love Hojo-jitsu and work it every chance I get!

I would like to recommend to you the book: COMPLETE KANO JIU-JITSU (c.1950) by H.I. Hancock, which I read and devoured in the late 1960s as an eager beaver kid (teen).  This book is available in public libraries and you should be able to find it with the help of your local librarian.

The only BJJ I have seen is on videos and on the boob tube, and I'm sorry to say,  it does not impress me!  It just reminds me too much of professional wrestling as it was done in the 1960s on the T.V.  Gene LeBell was very correct when he asserted that Pro-wrestling was one of the ultimate unarmed defense methods (not the glitzy garbage done on today's WWF T.V. junk).  And the pro-wrestlers of the 1960s did it a whole lot better than the BJJ guys I see on the videos and on cable T.V.

Also, please read anything on Judo by Don Draeger for a good opinion of what Dr. Jigoro Kano feared that Judo might become (hint: BJJ).


----------



## arnisador

I did Uechi-ryu for about a year and a half...I thought it was pretty neat. I went back-and-forth in my opinion of its effectiveness, but more and more I see the potential in it, though I haven't done it for years.


----------



## Kevin Walker

arnisador said:
			
		

> I did Uechi-ryu for about a year and a half...I thought it was pretty neat. I went back-and-forth in my opinion of its effectiveness, but more and more I see the potential in it, though I haven't done it for years.


Hi,

To be perfectly honest, outside of the benefits of Sanchin training, I thought Uechi-ryu to be the most, errr, I hesitate to put this in print, ineffective style of Okinawan Karate next to Isshin-ryu.

When I go to a mixed karate style shiai, the Uechi-ryu stylists adopt their classic dink toed stance, then fly into an unrecognizable flurry of techniques.  You can always recognize the Shotokanists because they're the ones always screaming their heads off, great kiais and spiritual development though.

Uechi-ryu was once very big here in Boston, in fact, it was Mattson who first introduced Karate to the city of Boston in the early 60s, and the style he introduced was Uechi-ryu.  Today there is very little Uechi-ryu left in Boston except for one of Mattson's students teaching privately in health clubs and gyms.  I don't like to dis any style, but I gravitated away from Uechi-ryu.


----------



## arnisador

I studied it in Providence, RI. At first I too thought it was pretty ineffective, but more and more I appreciate the head-on approach and circular blocks. With some aliveness I think it has potential. I still don't like the toe kicks.

I don't practice it, but have revised my opinion of it. Still, I understand and respect your opinion.


----------



## Marginal

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> The only BJJ I have seen is on videos and on the boob tube, and I'm sorry to say,  it does not impress me!  It just reminds me too much of professional wrestling as it was done in the 1960s on the T.V.  Gene LeBell was very correct when he asserted that Pro-wrestling was one of the ultimate unarmed defense methods (not the glitzy garbage done on today's WWF T.V. junk).  And the pro-wrestlers of the 1960s did it a whole lot better than the BJJ guys I see on the videos and on cable T.V.



That shootfighting style migrated to Japan where it remains alive and well.


----------



## Josh

Judo-In a tournament, looks like two people holding on to each other till one "trips" the other and they both fall. :ultracool 

Jujitsu-You grab me I grab your wrist and "toss" you.


 :asian:


----------



## Kevin Walker

Josh said:
			
		

> Judo-In a tournament, looks like two people holding on to each other till one "trips" the other and they both fall. :ultracool
> 
> Jujitsu-You grab me I grab your wrist and "toss" you.
> 
> 
> :asian:


Hi Josh,

I admit that watching a Judo tournament is as boring to the uninitiated as watching a GO (chess) game; yet I understand that there are hidden dynamics taking place in a Judo tournament just as there are in a game of GO (chess).

That is why martial arts practitioners used to be called "know-bodys", because we knew!!!

The high level GO (chess) player during a championship game is burning up almost an equal amount of calories as the high level Judoka during a championship!

And based on your observation that Jiu-jitsu consists of: "You grab me I grab your wrist and 'toss' you", I need to suggest that you have no comprehension of the Tori/Uke relationship!  Please contact your instructor and ask him what is the difference between Tori and Uke (this is Japanese).  It is a vital aspect of martial arts training!

Or better yet, go to the library and research it.  The book: KODOKAN JUDO by Dr. Jigoro Kano is a good place to start, then continue on to some Jiu-jitsu books.   I hope this helps.


----------



## Kevin Walker

Marginal said:
			
		

> That shootfighting style migrated to Japan where it remains alive and well.


Hi Marginal,

How is shootfighting related to Mr. Gene LeBell and Professional Wrestling?


----------



## Kevin Walker

arnisador said:
			
		

> I studied it in Providence, RI. At first I too thought it was pretty ineffective, but more and more I appreciate the head-on approach and circular blocks. With some aliveness I think it has potential. I still don't like the toe kicks.
> 
> I don't practice it, but have revised my opinion of it. Still, I understand and respect your opinion.


 
Yes, every style has something good to offer, and I still keep a few of the Uechi-ryu techiques in my repetoire of useful methods, and I loved the Sanchin breathing exercises, but that is as far as it went.  I kinda drifted away from all the Karate/Tae Kwon Do styles of Martial Arts and fully devoted my self into Judo and Jiu Jitsu styles.


----------



## Marginal

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Hi Marginal,
> 
> How is shootfighting related to Mr. Gene LeBell and Professional Wrestling?



Some of those wreslters you were talking about took their shows to Japan. Their submission wrestling styles took off there in various Japan pro wrestling federations. Some went the way of the WWF, some went a different route. Pancrase, shooto, etc are all a result of the wrestling style that LaBell was endorsing in your comment. 

Sakuraba comes from that tradition in fact. As does the Pride event in general.


----------



## Ceicei

Report of my 5th week class. I have one more class left (actually three, but I will be going out of state on a two week vacation, so I will miss the last two weeks). I explained this to my Judo instructor and she invited me to come for free for the whole month of August when I get back. Ummm, very tempting offer. I will think about it and decide after I return from vacation whether to accept it. I had been mulling about the idea of trying out Jujitsu at a different school closer to my home with more convenient hours that can be worked around my family and Kenpo. 

It was a very small class this time, only a third showed up, because of the holiday week. I thought it interesting that all the females (except one) showed up. Just one boy came. The men and one other boy werent there. He eventually left half way through the class. His expression looked kind of lost among all the women. He couldn't have been more than 11 years old. I felt kind of sad that there werent more youth involved with Judo. Maybe it isnt being promoted as much as other kinds of martial arts. 

We did our warm up stretches with dumbbells in our hands and had very short drills of breakfalling and shrimping.

We had a quick review of Osoto-gari and Ouchi-gari, then reviewed the ones I learned last week, Ippon-seoi-nage, morote-seoi-nage, uki-goshi, O-goshi, and Tai-otoshi. My uki for this class was a much taller, heavier woman, so it was more of a challenge working the throws on her. Last week I had no problem doing the some of the throws with another woman, but this week with this uki, I realized that her weight difference (she is a good 30-40 pounds heavier than me) apparently made quite an impact on how I practice. It forced me to focus more on the how to of the waza than relying on my own strength. It was a reality check for me. It also made me wonder why the instructor doesnt usually let the females pair up with the males. I realize the males outweigh most of us, but wouldnt that be a good thing to learn by working with them? :idunno:

Gaston, you mentioned about flexing the wrist with morote-seoi-nage. I took your advice and that helped. A new problem came up with practicing this technique. When my elbow goes into her armpit and under her arm, I found that my elbow became hyperflexed because of her weight. Perhaps Im doing something incorrectly because when I went home, I barely could use my elbow as it was so sore. Ive had hyperextended joints, but it was a new experience to have a joint hyperflexed. :xtrmshock 

I learned another type of throw. I keep my right hand on her left label and my left hand on her right sleeve. My right foot steps forward between her feet, closer to her right foot. I pivot on my left leg, turning around with my back towards my uki, but instead of putting my weight on both of my feet, I sweep my right leg backwards against her right leg. That proved to be difficult to do, since I see the other Tori/uki both loose balance and fall. I hadnt fallen down doing this, but I tend to let go a bit too early before she falls because I do not complete the full rotation.

One final throw I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee. 

After practicing these throws, we quick reviewed the pinsdidnt spend a lot of time doing these pins in this class.

Next, we then learned some chokes/strangleholds. I stood behind my uki and put my right arm around her neck, grasping my right hand with my left hand. The next choke I learned had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal. Apparently all the chokes I learned require the choking arm to be horizontal, working more like a bar than a choke with the elbow out front. My left hand grasps her right lapel and pulls down on it. The third choke was similar, except that my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it. The fourth choke was more fun my right hand grasps her left collar high behind her neck, and my left arm loops under her right arm, then goes around to the back of her head (kind of like half of a nelson  one sided). The fifth choke was having my uki mount me while Im on my back. I cross my hands and grasp her lapels high up her collar (my right hand on her right lapel and my left hand on her left lapel) and apply an opposing pull. This last one was easy to do as this choke is also known in my primary art, American Kenpo.

Sadly, we ran out of time to do randori. :miffer: I had been looking forward to randori since its the only time I can try out what I learned on a resisting partner.

- Ceicei


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Ceicei:

Sounds like you're doing great...learning lots, and having an excellent growing experience.

Enjoy!

Dave


----------



## auxprix

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I learned another type of throw. I keep my right hand on her left label and my left hand on her right sleeve. My right foot steps forward between her feet, closer to her right foot. I pivot on my left leg, turning around with my back towards my uki, but instead of putting my weight on both of my feet, I sweep my right leg backwards against her right leg. That proved to be difficult to do, since I see the other Tori/uki both loose balance and fall. I hadnt fallen down doing this, but I tend to let go a bit too early before she falls because I do not complete the full rotation.[/size][/font]



sounds like an Uchi Matta. It is a very difficult throw, but I would call it among the most important techniques in Judo. Whenever I watch the big-wigs in olympic footage, It seems like they're always using the Uchi Matta. Keep working at it. 

One thing you may want to try is as you turn, to shoot your left foot deep into Uke's stance. It will make the throw much easier. 

As for the balance thing, you just have you get used to it. If you loose balance, just do one of the forward rolls you do in your warmup to save yourself and uke alot of pain.

I'm glad you're enjoying your time and I hope you stick with Judo. It can be a little tough for some when they first start, but I believe you can't find alot of our technique anywhere else.


----------



## Gaston

Ceicei, I am glad to hear you are still at it, and martial talk has helped you through some of your first hurdles. I hope some of my tips help steer you around a few of the unseen ones. 

I realize the males outweigh most of us, but wouldnt that be a good thing to learn by working with them? Its best to learn the technique (waza) on a similarly sized opponent until you perfect it, less injuries.  

Gaston, you mentioned about flexing the wrist with morote-seoi-nage. I took your advice and that helped. A new problem came up with practicing this technique. When my elbow goes into her armpit and under her arm, I found that my elbow became hyperflexed because of her weight. Perhaps Im doing something incorrectly because when I went home, I barely could use my elbow as it was so sore. Ive had hyperextended joints, but it was a new experience to have a joint hyperflexed. 



Sorry to hear about your elbow, for future if something feels like it is injuring you check it out right away.  A small change in any MA technique can make a huge difference.  Hopefully your access the many experienced grapplers here, allows you to learn from our tips/mistakes.  Try to focus on this sequence for *most* forward throws: Drop (lower your body as you are stepping in) - Lock (their body to yours with at least 50% of their weight higher than your hips) - Throw (Allow them to fall over your body, its harder to stop a good throw at this point than to just let it happen) The majority of the arm pulling is to lock them to your body _not_ to provide lift.  The friction between your back and their front usually provides sufficient lift.  At first people try to throw their opponent up and over with their arms.  Then they realize their opponent is already standing and all they need is something / someone to fall over.  Just squat a little on entry and if they are properly off-balanced they will feel weightless as you allow them to fall over you.  Use your joints (hips & knees) as pivots for them to fall over.  Try this exercise, (It is actually called Sode-Tsurikomi-Goshi) have someone stand behind you with their arms raised.  Squat about 3-4inches and have them lean into you.  With both hands, elbows strait grab the ends of their long sleeves. Then bend at the hip so they stay put on your back & straiten your knees, their weight should be helping.  If you were to try & lift the same person by standing strait and pushing up with just your arms, you had best be VERY strong, and they not taller than you. Now just change your grip for morote-seoi-nage and watch them fly. 


I learned another type of throw (Uchi-mata). I keep my right hand on her left label and my left hand on her right sleeve. My right foot steps forward between her feet, closer to her right foot. I pivot on my left leg, turning around with my back towards my uki, but instead of putting my weight on both of my feet; I sweep my right leg backwards against her right leg. That proved to be difficult to do, since I see the other Tori/uki both loose balance and fall. I hadnt fallen down doing this, but I tend to let go a bit too early before she falls because I do not complete the full rotation. 

In Uchi-mata your uki falls in more of a sideways rotation around your leg.  It is a different feeling at first. Remember, as before your leg is just something to guide their fall, not to lift them.     Follow the above sequence, only this time lock them more to your back/side (hip).  The whole reason the leg goes up is to prevent them form stepping around the throw & allow your hip to lift higher.

One final throw (???) I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee. 

 Next, we then learned some chokes/strangleholds. 

(With Hadaka jime ensure the thumb side of your wrist is just above their voice box and centered under the chin) I stood behind my uki and put my right arm around her neck, grasping my right hand with my left hand. 

The next choke I learned (Okuri eri jime) had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal. Apparently (Not sure what you mean here?)  all the chokes I learned require the choking arm to be horizontal, working more like a bar than a choke with the elbow out front. My left hand grasps her right lapel and pulls down on it. The third choke (???) was similar, except that my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it. (Help you have lost me) 

The fourth choke (Kata ha jime) was more fun my right hand grasps her left collar high behind her neck, and my left arm loops under her right arm, then goes around to the back of her head (kind of like half of a nelson  one sided).(good description!) The fifth choke Nami-juji-jime or Gyaku-juji-jime palms down or up usually the second from underneath) was having my uki mount me while Im on my back. I cross my hands and grasp her lapels high up her collar (my right hand on her right lapel and my left hand on her left lapel) and apply an opposing pull. This last one was easy to do as this choke is also known in my primary art, American Kenpo. 

Sadly, we ran out of time to do randori. I had been looking forward to randori since its the only time I can try out what I learned on a resisting partner.

- Ceicei

* Keep it up!! It only gets better.*


----------



## Ceicei

auxprix said:
			
		

> One thing you may want to try is as you turn, to shoot your left foot deep into Uke's stance. It will make the throw much easier.
> 
> As for the balance thing, you just have you get used to it. If you loose balance, just do one of the forward rolls you do in your warmup to save yourself and uke alot of pain.


Thank you for your tips.  I'll be sure to try them and it should get better doing that throw!

- Ceicei


----------



## Ceicei

Gaston said:
			
		

> Ceicei, I am glad to hear you are still at it, and martial talk has helped you through some of your first hurdles. I hope some of my tips help steer you around a few of the unseen ones.
> 
> I realize the males outweigh most of us, but wouldnt that be a good thing to learn by working with them?Its best to learn the technique (waza) on a similarly sized opponent until you perfect it, less injuries.


Good point. I never considered that there might be a reason for pairing up similarly sized/weighted opponents, especially for beginners.


			
				Gaston said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear about your elbow, for future if something feels like it is injuring you check it out right away. A small change in any MA technique can make a huge difference. Hopefully your access the many experienced grapplers here, allows you to learn from our tips/mistakes.


 So are you suggesting that if something hurts, it probably means the technique is done incorrectly and I should stop right there to make an adjustment?



			
				Gaston said:
			
		

> Try to focus on this sequence for *most* forward throws:





			
				Gaston said:
			
		

> Drop (lower your body as you are stepping in) - Lock (their body to yours with at least 50% of their weight higher than your hips) - Throw (Allow them to fall over your body, its harder to stop a good throw at this point than to just let it happen) The majority of the arm pulling is to lock them to your body _not_ to provide lift. The friction between your back and their front usually provides sufficient lift. At first people try to throw their opponent up and over with their arms. Then they realize their opponent is already standing and all they need is something / someone to fall over. Just squat a little on entry and if they are properly off-balanced they will feel weightless as you allow them to fall over you. Use your joints (hips & knees) as pivots for them to fall over. Try this exercise, (It is actually called Sode-Tsurikomi-Goshi) have someone stand behind you with their arms raised. Squat about 3-4inches and have them lean into you. With both hands, elbows strait grab the ends of their long sleeves. Then bend at the hip so they stay put on your back & straiten your knees, their weight should be helping. If you were to try & lift the same person by standing strait and pushing up with just your arms, you had best be VERY strong, and they not taller than you. Now just change your grip for morote-seoi-nage and watch them fly.


 I'll have to try that. So basically, I'm just the tool to get them to fall... (scribbling mental notes). It's like I had realized at my class last week with a heavier person, I would have to rely more on skill. Unfortunately, my skill isn't all there yet... 





			
				Gaston said:
			
		

> In Uchi-mata your uki falls in more of a sideways rotation around your leg. It is a different feeling at first. Remember, as before your leg is just something to guide their fall, not to lift them. Follow the above sequence, only this time lock them more to your back/side (hip). The whole reason the leg goes up is to prevent them form stepping around the throw & allow your hip to lift higher.


 How is this different than harai-goshi? They both require a back leg sweep. Hard to tell from the pictures, but isn't Uchi-mata between the legs and Harai-goshi on the outside of the leg?



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> One final throw





			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> (???) I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee.


Maybe it is not a "new" throw. Maybe it is just that, a variation. It sure looked different when I have to hook her ankle instead of behind her knee.


> The next choke I learned (Okuri eri jime) had my right hand grasping her left collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal. Apparently (Not sure what you mean here?) all the chokes I learned require the choking arm to be horizontal, working more like a bar than a choke with the elbow out front.My left hand grasps her right lapel and pulls down on it. The third choke (???) was similar, except that my left hand grasps her left lapel and pulls down on it. (Help you have lost me)


What do I mean? I'm thinking (before taking up Judo) that chokes were where the arm wraps around the neck, the elbow facing forward and squeezing (like a one armed hug). With the chokes I learned in Judo, rather than have the elbow forward, the forearm is parallel to my body and just use pressure from the other hand or lapel being shortened.

Maybe the third choke is just another version of Okuri-eri-jime, by pulling down with the left lapel instead of the right lapel. 


			
				Gaston said:
			
		

> *Keep it up!! It only gets better.*


Thanks! I am starting to realize how little I understood Judo, and six classes doesn't do justice to learning what it is like. I probably will go ahead to take the instructor's offer of a free month in August when I return from my two-week vacation.

- Ceicei


----------



## auxprix

Well, your discription at first sounded like an uchimatta, but it could have also been a Hane-goshi or harai goshi. the truth is that throws are often very similar, and can be tough to distinguish between them at times. I was tought to make a little contact with the right leg for the uchi matta,  but I know others have been tought to go right inbetween. When you did the right leg sweep, did you do it on the outside or the inside of Uke's stance?

Here's something you be aquainted with. Maybe you've been given this address before, but it bears repeating:

www.judoinfo.com

This is an excellent resource for all Judo players.


----------



## Ceicei

auxprix said:
			
		

> Well, your discription at first sounded like an uchimatta, but it could have also been a Hane-goshi or harai goshi. the truth is that throws are often very similar, and can be tough to distinguish between them at times. I was tought to make a little contact with the right leg for the uchi matta, but I know others have been tought to go right inbetween. When you did the right leg sweep, did you do it on the outside or the inside of Uke's stance?


Well, I'm not sure which we were supposed to do. When we did this throw, some tori went outside, some went inside, and some attempted (like me) to sweep by pushing backwards at the ankle. We were supposed to practice the same technique together, so I'm not sure if it was the difficulty of this that caused so many of us to try in different ways. All of us in the class that day were apparently new to this throw.  I think we may have been trying Hane-goshi?  Isn't that technique the one with pushing at the ankle like the instructor did?

The instructor told us to sweep back, but she didn't seem to be picky on where/how the sweeping goes. Maybe it is primarily at this time to get us to work on moving our legs back before she will refine on which technique to do? :idunno:



> Here's something you be aquainted with. Maybe you've been given this address before, but it bears repeating:
> 
> www.judoinfo.com
> 
> This is an excellent resource for all Judo players.


Ah, I just discovered the videoclips and animation from that website! THANK YOU! :boing2: (yes, it was worth repeating that URL again as it had been a while since I last looked.) 

I wish the videoclips were up much closer, but they do show an overall view of how a technique looks. The animation shows the movements better than some of those videoclips. I had to look at some videoclips more than a few times to study the feet/hands.

- Ceicei


----------



## Ceicei

> _One final throw (???) I learned was sort of like kosoto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee._
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it is not a "new" throw. Maybe it is just that, a variation. It sure looked different when I have to hook her ankle instead of behind her knee.
Click to expand...

Now that I've taken a look at the animation of techniques on www.judoinfo.com, It looks like the technique in question here was De-ashi-harai. 

- Ceicei


----------



## Gaston

Ceicei,



So are you suggesting that if something hurts, it probably means the technique is done incorrectly and I should stop right there to make an adjustment?



Judo is meant to employ maximum efficient use of power If the Waza is causing you lasting pain and dysfunction with little end results, I wouldnt call that efficient, and I would be looking for clarification.

I'll have to try that. So basically, I'm just the tool to get them to fall... (scribbling mental notes). Exactly, the throw portion of the technique is more like allowing them to fall assisted; the initial set up is the difficult portion. It's like I had realized at my class last week with a heavier person, I would have to rely more on skill. Unfortunately, my skill isn't all there yet...



_In Uchi-mata your uki falls in more of a sideways rotation around your leg. It is a different feeling at first. Remember, as before your leg is just something to guide their fall, not to lift them. Follow the above sequence, only this time lock them more to your back/side (hip). The whole reason the leg goes up is to prevent them form stepping around the throw & allow your hip to lift higher._



How is this different than harai-goshi? They both require a back leg sweep. Hard to tell from the pictures, but isn't Uchi-mata between the legs and Harai-goshi on the outside of the leg?

You are correct they both *HIP* techniques require a rear sweep with the leg.  Haiai-goshi is out side and Uchi-mata is between the legs. The differences are found in how Uki falls and the relationship between Uki & Toris bodies.  The leg comes off the floor for two reasons, to prevent Uki from stepping around you, and to allow you to raise your hip higher.  Try lifting your left hip with and without your left foot stuck to the floor, big difference.  In Harai-goshi which is very similar to O-goshi your opponent ends up falling to the front of your position and falls on more of a forward roll over your hip.  Often if you start with O-goshi and your opponent begins to step around, you can switch to Harai-goshi and finish the throw.  In Uchi-mata your opponent revolves around their vertical axis which you have bent at a forward angle. So although they do fall over your leg they more or less revolve around your upper leg/hip. I hope that is clearer, if not I will try to add a few more details.

_One final throw __(???) __I learned was sort of like ko soto-gari, but this one was with my left foot hooking behind her right ankle instead of her knee._



Maybe it is not a "new" throw. Maybe it is just that, a variation. It sure looked different when I have to hook her ankle instead of behind her knee. 



Sometimes when you first try O or _Ko Soto Gari your foot will creep up Ukis leg to their knee. Just remember Gari is reaping, try to fit the inner arch of your foot around ukis heel and you will *reap* greater rewards (sorry for the pun I couldnt help it)_

What do I mean? I'm thinking (before taking up Judo) that chokes were where the arm wraps around the neck, the elbow facing forward and squeezing (like a one armed hug). With the chokes I learned in Judo, rather than have the elbow forward, the forearm is parallel to my body and just uses pressure from the other hand or lapel being shortened.

Oh, sure for the chokes you have learned I see what you mean. But dont forget body position and shoulder placement.  In some shime-waza that is the case, but there are many choke/strangles out there where different rules apply.

Maybe the third choke is just another version of Okuri-eri-jime, by pulling down with the left lapel instead of the right lapel. (Maybe? But clarify for me please, if this describes your third choke of the night??) I stood *behind* my uki had my *right* hand grasping her *left* collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal my *left* hand grasps her *left* lapel and pulls down on it.



Great to see you are going to be keeping at it! Have fun.

Gaston


----------



## Gaston

auxprix said:
			
		

> Well, your discription at first sounded like an uchimatta, but it could have also been a Hane-goshi or harai goshi. the truth is that throws are often very similar, and can be tough to distinguish between them at times. I was tought to make a little contact with the right leg for the uchi matta, but I know others have been tought to go right inbetween. When you did the right leg sweep, did you do it on the outside or the inside of Uke's stance?
> 
> Here's something you be aquainted with. Maybe you've been given this address before, but it bears repeating:
> 
> www.judoinfo.com
> 
> This is an excellent resource for all Judo players.


 

As long as we remember these three are all Goshi waza/hip techniques, and apply that part of the waza corectly, the leg placement will come with each situation.  
Uchimatta (whole leg in), 
Harai goshi (whole leg out) 
Hane-goshi (foot in-knee out "_and you shake it all about lol sorry"_)

Gaston


----------



## Ceicei

Gaston said:
			
		

> Maybe the third choke is just another version of Okuri-eri-jime, by pulling down with the left lapel instead of the right lapel.(Maybe? But clarify for me please, if this describes your third choke of the night??) I stood *behind* my uki had my *right* hand grasping her *left* collar, almost behind her neck, but keeping my right forearm horizontal my *left* hand grasps her *left* lapel and pulls down on it.


Ah, yes. Basically, I grasp the left collar with my right hand up by her left ear, my left hand grasps the left lapel slightly under the right hand. I pull down with my left hand on the lapel. My right hand loosens it a bit to allow the collar to slip through, but my right hand tightens again as soon as I feel the gi tightening around her neck. Not sure what this one is called since I do not see it in the book described this way.

The Okuri-eri-jime works better though with my left hand pulling down on the right lapel though since I don't need to let go with my right hand.

- Ceicei


----------



## Gaston

this is a tryal to get some pictures to load
Gaston


----------



## Gaston

That didn't work?


----------



## Gaston

Anybody know how to insert picks into the text here?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

sliding collar choke?


----------



## Gaston

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> sliding collar choke?


Yes Okuri-eri-jime translates to sliding  collar/lapel choke/lock. 
Usually you use the left hand to take up the slack in the left lapel by pulling the lapel out and down from under the left armpit. The right hand then slides in under the jaw line for a *tight* thumb in slack free grip. Then the left hand still under the left armpit moves across to grip the right lapel thumb up.  A combined effort of; straightening the right wrist, drawing the right elbow back, pulling down the ukis right lapel, while pressing the ukis body down into a C shape and pressing your right shoulder into the back of ukis head.  This usually finishes the technique. Oh, to be able to show the technique in person. It requires so fewer words ahhhh.

Gaston


----------



## Gaston

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I had a non-martial arts friend ask me this question: "What are the differences between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu?" Since I don't study Judo or Jiu-Jitsu (I study American Kenpo), I don't have good answers. Your assistance in replies would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> - Ceicei







*:rules:If I can get some tech. help I will add pictures of what I am talking about* 


I have just finished reading;idunno:picture of book) my study of Judo by G. Koizumi 7th dan at the time. The author was born on July 8, 1885, the book was copyrighted in *1960*.
I came across some interesting facts. idunno:sample page of book listing Kansetsu waza/locking techniques for the entire body) 

The principles described in this book can be found in most Judo, JJ or even BJJ syllabuses around the world, interesting.

These two moves in particular looks very similar, you be the judge. idunno:4 pictures of two very similar moves old and "_*new*_") The "_*newer*_" moves are out of BJJ Black Belt techniques copyright *2003* author Jean Jacques Machado. This book shows just how close Judo, JJ, & BJJ were all related at the start.

Gaston


----------



## Bod

Gaston,

Is the book still in print? Where did you get hold of it?

I'm rather interested in Mr. Koizumi, given that he is my teacher's teacher, and my teacher is married to his daughter (Hannah).

My teacher is always trying to teach Mr. Koizumi's style of judo, and Mr. Tani's (another of the men who brought judo to Britain).

I was not aware of the book, and have only read a few articles by Mr. Koizumi on the web, and seen one of his stick drawings in our club.

Any information would be wonderful.

Thanks


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## Ceicei

Gaston has been having difficulty uploading his pictures to this thread, so I offered to do them for him.  Two of the pictures (of the book) were too big, so I need to resize them first.  Here are the rest of his pictures:


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## Ceicei

Here are the resized pictures of the book Gaston mentioned.


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## Gaston

Thanks to ceicei for the help with the pictures. Here are the descriptions of the waza.

The old arm lock is listed as Kuzure-heza-gatame. The new one is listed as Omo Plata. The only difference is in the first you twist the wrist to prevent a forward roll. In the second you lock the legs on one another. These two differences are minor given the 60+ years of progress. In the Judo version you lock your hands together to provide a secure grip. In the BJJ version you grasp the lapels with opposing grips. Interesting that the Judo version doesnt require the use of a gi and the BJJ version does:idunno:. The sample page listing the types of Kansetsu-Waza covers the entire body not just elbow. Many of the other waza are described along with some photos. 


Gaston


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gaston said:
			
		

> Thanks to ceicei for the help with the pictures. Here are the descriptions of the waza.
> 
> The old arm lock is listed as Kuzure-heza-gatame. The new one is listed as Omo Plata. The only difference is in the first you twist the wrist to prevent a forward roll. In the second you lock the legs on one another. These two differences are minor given the 60+ years of progress. In the Judo version you lock your hands together to provide a secure grip. In the BJJ version you grasp the lapels with opposing grips. Interesting that the Judo version doesnt require the use of a gi and the BJJ version does:idunno:. The sample page listing the types of Kansetsu-Waza covers the entire body not just elbow. Many of the other waza are described along with some photos.
> 
> 
> Gaston


Good observations, but life is not written in pictures alone. BJJ also teaches gi-less versions of these chokes, holds, and controls. As someone who went into BJJ with a history in Judo, it occurred to me that there was nothing new under the sun: Whether calling the naked choke hadaka jime or mata leon, the basic math of the strangle is the same. I have a bunch of old Judo books I bought in used book stores in the 70's (yep, they were old then) written in the 40's and 50's, and all of the "hidden moves" from the brazilians...that I waited for with baited breath to be shown...were in those books. And in some of my previous Judo lessons. The key difference that stands out to me (and I think it's an important one, since I've gone back to randori with Judo seniors after minimal BJJ, and spanked guys who previously spanked me) are the set-ups and transitions. The actual end holds are much the same (and sometimes cleaner in Judo), but the "how to get there from here" seems more pragmatic to me in BJJ. (i.e., Judo gata taught me how to perform a straddle position with crossed lapel choke, but not how to get or maintian the straddle position against resistance. BJJ teaches the mount with collar choke, and one works for years refining gaining and keeping the mount, as well as applying a myriad of holds against an opponent who mistakenly attempts to dismount you. Judo guys work a little on this, but don't spend as much time here, because they have the rest of the Kodokan cirriculum to learn, as well).

Considering this is all they (the Brazilians) really do, it shouldn't come as any great surprise that, by sheer trial and error over thousands of people doing just grappling for thousands of hours, folks from this crib are bound to brainstorm different transitions that serve their purposes better than traditionally imparted versions.

When I tie up with my seniors in Judo, I don't expect to be able to put them on the floor, and if the purpose of the match is just to the throw, I count on losing (I try anyways, but I'm not stupid). If the randori is till someone taps in submission, I've learned I can hang on, take them down with me, and outclass them on the ground with subtley better transitions to the familiar old holds. I can free from their kesa-gatame much more easily than they from mine; jockey for position to place them in sankaku-jime without them knowing where I'm going with my fidgets till its too late, and can reverse the fortunes of a supposedly inferior position with greater facility (choke a guy out from under his four-corner hold without him having seen it coming). Still, I am not a better judoka...I only have the sneakier transitions generated in the Brazilian microcosm of randori trial and error, evolved in a fish tank based on Vale Tudo challenge matches, rather then Olympic competition. Different focus on similar material leads to different outcome.

Some people get to the car crash in a mercedes, some in a BMW...the end wreckage pretty much looks the same, but how one got there is a bit different.

My own thoughts.

Dave


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## Gaston

I agree with every thing you mentioned, except for a few minor concerns. Is it poor form to quote your self on a common thought well, I hope not? 



*Judo forum* (likes and dislikes about Judo): posted 07-01-2004*"*What I enjoy the most about judo is the dynamics of pitting your self mentally & physically against another person, for mutual advancement. For Judo to thrive we must remember its co-operative nature during training. I also feel the limitation of various techniques has created a dormant state that was never meant to exist. A few changes that I feel would aid Judo are as follows: incorporating a round fighting area, promoting transition techniques, ensuring refs actually still train/attend classes, & revising the rules to allow for more dynamic ground work." 



Gaston

End quote



I also have a question for Kembudo-Kai Kempoka. Doesn't BJJs' variety of available submissions sometimes hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions? For example if you are in danger of (?????) while performing a transition X wouldnt you avoid transition X? While although Judo is limited to elbow locks, chokes & strangles during Randori and Shiai. This same limitation may allow a Judoka to move through that same/or greater variety of transitions unmolested by those particular concerns. Or do you feel that the presence of these dangers gave BJJ extra focus time to development the transitions that *are available to them?*



Comments??



Gaston


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gaston said:
			
		

> I agree with every thing you mentioned, except for a few minor concerns. Is it poor form to quote your self on a common thought well, I hope not?
> 
> 
> 
> *Judo forum* (likes and dislikes about Judo): posted 07-01-2004*"*What I enjoy the most about judo is the dynamics of pitting your self mentally & physically against another person, for mutual advancement. For Judo to thrive we must remember its co-operative nature during training. I also feel the limitation of various techniques has created a dormant state that was never meant to exist. A few changes that I feel would aid Judo are as follows: incorporating a round fighting area, promoting transition techniques, ensuring refs actually still train/attend classes, & revising the rules to allow for more dynamic ground work."
> 
> 
> 
> Gaston
> 
> End quote
> 
> 
> 
> I also have a question for Kembudo-Kai Kempoka. Doesn't BJJs' variety of available submissions sometimes hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions? For example if you are in danger of (?????) while performing a transition X wouldnt you avoid transition X? While although Judo is limited to elbow locks, chokes & strangles during Randori and Shiai. This same limitation may allow a Judoka to move through that same/or greater variety of transitions unmolested by those particular concerns. Or do you feel that the presence of these dangers gave BJJ extra focus time to development the transitions that *are available to them?*
> 
> 
> 
> Comments??
> 
> 
> 
> Gaston


Love the Judo quote. Unfortunately, am prone to bad form...but I'll try harder. 

Danger in transition?  Keeps the creative juices flowing. In really good chess, there is no safe move without consequences...even if they are not immediately identifiable, but three or five moves down the line. In ground-fighting, there are no safe transitions. I've seen many different variation of an escape/transition, breaking out of the guard, and slithering to a side-mount position. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Interestingly, only a few people know all the versions, their relative strengths and weaknesses, and how to exploit them. Part of what makes it fun is learning to ID these on the fly.

BJJ guys wrassled alot...and had to figure out a lot of counters, counters to counters, and so on. There is no safe transition, but with luck, risk is minimized by addressing the topic with a player not as educated as yourself. In a challenging roll, you never get to finish a transition...you start it, he recognizes it, blocks it, and starts to switch things up on you; you recognize the block, ID targets presented by virtue of position, and abandon the original transition to go after them.  Often these start and end with little more then a twitch of the hips to start moving in the direction you need to go...he's felt it before, knows where you're planning on going with it, and changes the pressure at the upper torso area in prep for the counter, which you feel so you change which way an ankle has weight distributed so you can post to block him, and so on. Evenly matched guys in randori sessions often look like they are just laying on each other twitching.  That's one of the reasons for the MMA rules about breaking guys up and starting them over...lotsa technical exchange going on at subtle levels, but notta lotta visual excitement to watch.

I think I responded to your question, but it's kinda late. Let me know if I missed.

D.


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## Gaston

I as well feel the ref needs to be well versed in ground tactics i.e. defensive VS offensive progress, to recognize the subtleties of ground work. Yes sometimes I can over explain things, simply put my question is.

Doesn't BJJs' *variety of submissions *hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions?
For example if you are in danger of (?????) while performing a transition X wouldnt you avoid transition X? 
Judos' *"limited"**submissions* allow a Judoka to move through that same/or greater *variety of transitions* unmolested. Or do you feel this gave BJJers extra focus time to development the transitions that *are available to them?*_ Hope this clears things up._



Gaston


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## Cobra

Can people Jiu-Jitsu compete in Judo competitions? Since Judo is the version of Jiu-Jitsu except taking out all the dangerous techniques. Don't you learn most judo moves in Jiu-Jitsu?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Cobra said:
			
		

> Can people Jiu-Jitsu compete in Judo competitions? Since Judo is the version of Jiu-Jitsu except taking out all the dangerous techniques. Don't you learn most judo moves in Jiu-Jitsu?


You would have to specify which type of jiu jitsu prior to this question being answerable.  Judo, in my own pea little brain, has one of the best broad-based lexicons of applied taijutsu. Most jujutsu schools have areas of specialty (i.e., focus on wrists; focus on grappling; etc.). One of Judo's strengths is that it introduces the practitioner to a bit-o-everything. Unfortunately, that is also probably one of it's 2-3 major weaknesses, as well.  Students become a Jack-of-all-trades/Master of none. Still, I think, due to the live training, one is better off in most Judo schools, than most jujutsu schools.

Prescription: Take 5-8 years of Judo to survey the contents, then split off to train in a specialty splinter system that appeals to you.  Like dropping people on the floor in compromising, painful positions? Shooto. Like choking them till they turn funny colors? BJJ. Wanna break a lotta arms, ankles, or knees? Old Sambo (pre-MMA/competition modifications).

They all do a little of all of it, because they all have pretty much the same parent arts; each generally picks a focus at which to excel.  I remember when Sambo guys first came out of the woodworks to train with a lot of the BJJ-ers.  We kept getting caught in the funky knee and ankle locks we had never seen before. Years passed, and now those same locks are taught in BJJ cirricula. Same with Shoot...cool take downs and transitions that are now used by all.  Few, however, have the global sense of non-specialty positioning one can expect from Judo training.

Judo breakfalling and rolling skills have saved my life/skin on multiple occasions. Things may have changed (I've been out for awhile), but last time I was involved, the vast majority of BJJ schools never taught breakfalls...something everybody should know.

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Gaston:

Maybe I just need a vacation. Whatever two neurons need to touch for me to be clear on your inquiry just ain't reachin each other.  Sorry for being dense: I'll try reading it again when it isn't at the end of a long, stress-laden day.

D.


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## Gaston

No problem, I'll try rewording my responses and adding some of your own words.



The actual end holds are much the same (and sometimes cleaner in Judo), but the "how to get there from here" seems more pragmatic to me in BJJ. (i.e., Judo gata taught me how to perform a straddle position with crossed lapel choke, but not how to get or maintain the straddle position against resistance. BJJ teaches the mount with collar choke, and one works for years refining gaining and keeping the mount, as well as applying a myriad of holds against an opponent who mistakenly attempts to dismount you. Judo guys work a little on this, but don't spend as much time here. Considering this is all they (the Brazilians) really do, it shouldn't come as any great surprise that, by sheer trial and error over thousands of people doing just grappling for thousands of hours, folks from this crib are bound to brainstorm different transitions that "*serve their purposes"* better than traditionally imparted versions (with self imposed training limitations).

If the randori is till someone taps in submission, I've learned I can hang on, take them down with me, and outclass them on the ground with subtly better transitions to the familiar old holds. I can free from their Kesa-gatame much more easily than they from mine; jockey for position to place them in sankaku-jime without them knowing where I'm going with my fidgets till its too late, and can reverse the fortunes of a supposedly inferior position with greater facility (choke a guy out from under his four-corner hold without him having seen it coming). Still, I am not a better judoka...I only have the sneakier transitions generated in the Brazilian microcosm of randori trial and error, evolved in a fish tank based on Vale Tudo challenge matches, (Where they are allowed the full range of submissions during training.) rather then Olympic competition(with their self imposed limitation of techniques). *Different focus on similar material leads to different outcome.*



In your above points in red you indicate that BJJs' transitions are superior to Judos, right? Also BJJ is "allowed" to use a greater range of submissions, correct? 



So following that thought doesn't BJJs' *variety of submissions* have to hamper the possibility for developing certain transitions, due to its greater range of submissions? Some positions/transitions are guaranteed to expose you to a submission. 

If while transitioning from A to B you find that you are always being submitted with a (?????), the logical decision would be to find a different route from A to B. 



If I have made sense this time this will to.



Judos' *"limited submissions"* would have allowed a Judoka to move through that same *route* unmolested, correct? *Therefore, Judos "limited submissions" must allow for greater number of "safe" routes/transitions between A & B*.



Perhaps, in your earlier quote did you mean to say: "Due to the greater variety of potential submissions, BJJers have had to develop the transitions between A & B that are available to them* safe"* to a greater degree?" 



By "safe" I'm sure you understand I mean those routes that do not guaranteed to get you submitted. Hope this clears things up.



Gaston


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Yep. Cleared up, and I think I addressed it in the "game of chess" post.

Yes, the wider range of approaches to submissions places BJJ-ers at higher levels of risk, while in positions that more traditional Judo players (YMCA, Olympic) would consider safe zones. The wrassler faces a choice: Don't move, or know enough counters to their counters (i.e., if he tries to put me in ???? while on my way to X, I'll switch midstream and Y on him).

Keep in mind: I personally believe that technology developes in response to the pressures placed on its innovators. Were the Kodokan and its affiliates concerned more with grappling and challenge matches, I'm quite confident the developments would have been much the same.  Isn't there someting in history about 2 guys coming up with the theory of evolution at the same time, but from different starting points?  With necessity as the mother of invention, an idea whose time has come, will in fact, come. 

D.


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