# a saying about teaching the art



## thekuntawman (Apr 18, 2003)

"an expert is a man who is in his fighting career, and a master is a teacher who is fighting career is over."

what does this mean? you cannot become a teacher until you have been a few years into your fighting career. a fighting career is when you have achieved a "black belters" level in the martial art (4-5 years) and you begin to spar against other experts for three reasons, reputation, learning/fighting experience, and testing your ideas about fighting. so what, if its not the street or its sport. that is the talk of cowards. you are trying your skills against a moving man who is trying to kick your ***, like you are trying to do to him. the fighting career is when you put all that talk about developing basics and "attributes" in your pocket and prove to others and yourself that your talk can walk. say what you want about tournaments, wekaf, etc. these guys know what a full speed hit looks like, and they have a better chance to counter it than someone who spent all day doing sinawali. fighting experience, like i said gives the so called "expert" three things:
1. a reputation people can count on. so what you wrote books. so what you are well known. so what you have a lot of friends who call you the "real deal". your peers in the philippine martial arts want to know if you can fight. and so do your students. soon or later, one of them will try you out, even in a friendly way, and there is no worser reputation than the old student who says he whipped you up once. if your going to be a teacher, your reputation is your business card.
2. the true "advance level training". screw the drills and neat ways to disarm a stick. advance martial arts is, making your opponent mad because he cant hit you, and finding new ways to cause pain to him. advance learning is applying the technique. and you cant learn that in a video or seminar. look around your classroom. if you got beginners in class with you, and they are learning and practicing the same thing you are, your not in the advance class. advance training is where the big boys train. my own grandfather told me at this level he cant teach me more, my teachers are my opponents and my memory of the matches.
3. so you came up with your own style? its so popular here in the US to copy off the old manong and make your own style, since they did it to, (you know its not the same) but you forgot one thing. i dont know what culture it came from where you make your own style by writing down a new curriculum of all the neat stuff you got on those seminars, but its not how the FMA man does it. for your own style to have its own life, you need opponents you used it on. am i am not talking about friends and companion. dan inosanto is not the man to ask about bruce lees jeet kune do, wong jak man is.

your fighting career is going to last until you are late 40s or 50s. people who are on the east coast know people like billy bryant and furman marshall. they still fight in tournaments at 48 and 49 years old. i remember billy got mad at eberhard welch in 1992 or 93 because he made billy fight in the seniors. i am glad in a way, because billy would have beaten me in the young mens division. by the way, at the grandchampion matchs, he broke the nose of marty kokavas, the lightweight who beat me. marty finished the fight, and beat billy to win the money. only a true fighter can fight with a broken nose. if you want to be a master fighter, you keep fighting. but if you want to be a master teacher, you teach while you learn and develop yourself. when your fighting career is over, that is when you can really call yourself a "master of the art". notice i say CALL YOURSELF, not earn a paper. when your fighting career is over, you really have learned all you can learn from your own experiences of the fighting martial arts.

oh yeah, another saying,
"a master of the martial arts is promoted by his community." you earn the respect of a senior teacher from people, not from a organization. we are not japanese martial arts.


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## moromoro (Apr 18, 2003)

thats true i agree but now wait for the backlash your gonna recieve from members of the mcdonalds dojo's who themselves have never fought.....


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## thekuntawman (Apr 18, 2003)

i wrote this because people dont understand what the difference between an expert and a teacher. just because you know the martial art, or you are a black belter, does not make you qualified to teach.

there is more to the martial art than, do you just know techniques or not. like when a certain expert is called "excellent technician". HUH??? does that mean he knows a lot of techniques, or does he do his techniques well? the teacher needs wisdom, not just knowledge. you can read books and get knowledge. as a teacher of the martial arts, you are teaching people how to preserved his life! that is no position for somebody who is guessing or speaking in theory. the teacher, then, should have "been there, done that". he has to take some *** whippings so he can help the student how do deal with being beaten, and how to stay alive through it. he needs to understand the many different kinds of fighters, and sizes and skills of fighters, and REAL KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE, not "THEORY" OR GUESSING!

if you want to qualify your students, separate experts/black belt fighters from TEACHERS. the person who wants to be a teacher needs to be a wise and experienced man, not a teacher of movement. thats what we have video and seminars for.

teachers need more time with their teachers. they need lots of conversations to pick his own teachers brain and experience. he needs one to one time, over years of taking his experience back to his teacher. now, how can you give a test on this, or draw a curriculum for that?

about a year ago i read a posting where somebody writes, okay i just got my first degree black belt this weekend. anybody who wants classes in sucha such town, send me an email......HUH????


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## Dave Fulton (Apr 18, 2003)

I agree with your post and I am amused by your style of communication as always.  I mean that as a compliment, by the way.  I like that you don't do buy into the whole "politically correct" thing and say what you think in spite of the inevitable back lash.

Eberhard Welch, that's a name that I haven't heard in a while.  By the way, where is Billy Bryant located?  I have heard some good things about him and that he was in the Washington, DC area at some point, but nothing definite.  Also, as I recall your brother (I think?) was going to open a school in the DC area, but it was put on hold.  Has that been resolved?

Also, if you are ever going to be in the DC area, we should try to get together.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton


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## thekuntawman (Apr 18, 2003)

hi dave,

i really cant say where billy is, and i havent talk to him since 98. the last time i talked to him, i think he was in a wheelchair because of a car accident.

eberhard welch jr, in case you didnt know was killed a few years back, and his dad has a tournament once a year in college park/hyattsville in his name. i fought in the first two, then i just brought students. he still has a karate school (i think its shorin ryu) near PG plaza in hyattsville, called welch's karate. heres some trivia, that he use to be a sparring partner of don bitanga, who is a teacher of shorin ryu and pekiti tirsia arnis under (i think) bo sayoc.

for my hard head brother, he still teaches the couple students he had for many years, but he is doing home improvments contract work for home depot. he makes good money, and doesnt want to deal with collecting tuition and stuff. if you go to some of the dc tournaments you might see him, they wear red karate gis. if i can ever get home to DC, i want to start a group, then let him take it over, but with these babies coming (i have three now) i can never leave california except for guaranteed money....

thanks dave, i will look you up when i go back to the east coast. did i meet you before, when i was in baltimore?


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 18, 2003)

Please see this thread for a similar discussion:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2208


:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 18, 2003)

Question to  thekuntawman and Moromoro and others :

It sounds like the fighting you,  thekuntawman, are discussion is tournament fighting. Do you really call this true figthing? or just Sparring under a given set of rules with a set of Pads or . . . ????

Also, I repeat my question, how am I to get people to truly spar or fight me. Why would they risk it against an unknown?

What if I have already been able to spar my Peers and wish to spar some of my Seniors (* time in the art *)? How do I get them to agree to this?

Would either of you truly agree to play with me, if we were in the same area? (* This is not a challenge it is a question *)


What if a person is exceptional and they can defend themselves quite well? Would it then be ok for a person to settle down and teach and work on their Mastery before being in their late 40's or 50's? Are these Guidelinse or are they Rules or are they Laws?



Still Curious


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## thekuntawman (Apr 18, 2003)

wow you have a good memory. i forgot about that posting.

anyway, i saw something, where i wrote "what i tell my students, theres going to be a time when i am not there with you, and you are going to have to train yourself and fight by yourself. your teacher can only take you so far, the rest of your training will be up to you if you want to go up to that level, or stay a forever student."

well, its funny i said that, because i am not in sacramento, and my students been running the school since febuary. one of them came to visit me a few days ago, to tell me he is moving to texas. i told him to join some schools there, so he will have people to spar with. maybe i will go out there to teach him sometime, or he can visit california. but after 18 months training with us, he fights with black belters all the time, stick and empty hand, so now, he is "on his own", just like the others. if they didnt know it before, now they do, that knowledge wont come in a spoon all the time.  

there is really only one way to teach yourself, and its not with a VCR


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## thekuntawman (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Question to  thekuntawman and Moromoro and others :
> 
> It sounds like the fighting you,  thekuntawman, are discussion is tournament fighting. Do you really call this true figthing? or just Sparring under a given set of rules with a set of Pads or . . . ????
> ...



rich there is only one thing that is a true fight, and that is a streetfight that you didnt plan (or with a friend, but you didnt plan it). but you need to get as much of any kind of fighting that you can even if you want to make fun of a tournament. classroom sparring i dont count because you are too comfortable with someone you know, even if they are good. so, yes, i agree, you spar in tournaments, point tournaments, full contact tournaments if you are ready, and with people you know who are outside your own organization. yes its not a life or death fight, but its closer to a real fight then patty cake drills (or "sensitivity" or whatever).

how do you get people you dont know to spar with you? you just invite them. you will meet more fighters in a tournament than just walking in, but dont laugh at the point fighter. many of them do fight with a lot of contact. but as one teacher to another, it is too easy to find other teachers who will workout with you, just ask. before i move my school, my students use to spar with hampton's karate who was next door to us! its uncomfortable for everybody, but its healthy for training the hearts and spirits of young martial arts fighters (all adults, by the way). you can find a nice way to invite them, then when the day comes, its all business, buddy.

sprring your seniors is good, but you need people outside your organization, and best if its strangers.

and yeah you can teach when you are young, i opend my school when i was 23. but you cant just stop because your teaching! i changed my style and strategy almost every year since i opened my school, and i grow better every year. all i am saying is, the BEST time to catch a teacher is when he is getting old. i rather listen to an old man with his own style than a young one. but i also rather learn from a young man who is his own style, if he is still fighting against other people (even in a POINT tournament). 

point is fine, if you dont think its the only way to fight. but if you dont do much fighting at all, even light contact, your skills are only theory.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 18, 2003)

I see another Thread here answers one of my questions.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=757


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## moromoro (Apr 18, 2003)

hi rich

you have replyed twice to this thread but where is your reply to the term MORO thread?????


thanks 

terry


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## Dave Fulton (Apr 18, 2003)

Well, I hope Billy has recovered from his injuries.

As for Eberhard Welch, I used to train at his dojo when he was in Mount Rainier and yes, the style is Shorin-ryu.  I was at Eberhard Jr.'s funeral.  What a shame that was!

The name Don Bitanga sounds familiar.  Is he in the DC area?

I can kind of understand your brother not wanting to deal with the headaches of teaching for money.  I do not teach, but I help with running our club (which is very non-commercial), so I kind of have an understanding of the problems involved.  

I don't go to tournaments and never really went to them except when I was with Welch's dojo back in 90-92.  I guess I might have meet you at a tournament in 90-92, but if I did, then I do not remember it.  Did you ever come to Welch's dojo during the 90-92 time frame?  If so, then we are almost sure to have meet. 

I can relate on the baby front ... I only have two and it's hard enough to set aside time & money for personal things.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi rich
> 
> you have replyed twice to this thread but where is your reply to the term MORO thread?????
> ...




Terry,

Give me time, for I have already replied. Yet I do not reply without thinking about my words. Checking for Spelling and proof reading for conent to avoid a miscommunication.

Just because I am watching one thread, does nto meanI am watching all threads at the same time. 

Please read the reply their. 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109938#post109938


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *"an expert is a man who is in his fighting career, and a master is a teacher who is fighting career is over."
> 
> what does this mean? you cannot become a teacher until you have been a few years into your fighting career. .........
> ...



Kuntawman

I read your posts on this thread and for the most part I agree with you.  But for discussion I take it you are saying that you must be a fighter to be a good teacher.

Also you question in your 2nd post about an "excellent technican", with the inferance again you can't be a good teacher without being a good fighter.

I disagree on these points.  I believe you can be a good, even master level teacher and not be a " good fighter"  in the sense that you protrayed.

Through hard training and a good work ethic you can become a master level instructor without fighting.  Since you bring up the japanese martial arts are you saying that they are not master level instructors?  In Okinawan Karate the master Anko Itosu was known for not engaging in violence.

From "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" by Shoshin Nagamine
 comes the following about Anko Itosu. pg.48 "Avoiding physical violence his entire life, Itosu trained with incredible ferocity and found contentment putting his heart and soul into his makiwara practice."  And on pg.49 "Yet in spite of Itosu's diligent makiwara training and polished martial art skills, I know of no episodes of him ever fighting or even having an arguement throughout his entire life"

It was sensei Itosu who helped introduce karate into the schools and had the following karate masters as students;Yabu Kentsu, Funakoshi Gichin, Hanshiro Chomo, Kyan Chotoku, Chibana Chosin, Tokuda Anbun, Oshiro Chojo, Mabuni Kenwa, Gusukuma Shinpan.  Many of these individuals went on to start their own schools/systems etc. etc. and were taught by this master who didn't fight.  Was this man a good teacher or what?

A couple of years prior to his passing I got to meet GM Leo Giron, at a seminar in Stockton.  I was impressed by the level of respect that people held for the man.  There was a dinner held after the seminars and other people (not students) were coming up to him and paying their respects (reminded me of the Godfather or the Pope) again was this because he was a great fighter or was it something more that he gave back to his community that people treated him with this type of respect?  And yet he was a good and qualified teacher.

In I believe it's one of Mark Wiley's books on Serrada (the 2nd one) he mentions an instructor who I also met  at the same seminar (that I met GM Giron) who was trained by GM Cabalas. This instructor has a severe medical condition and yet Angel trained him to help others or teach others even though he couldn't now spar.  (And I don't think he could then as well) Is he not qualified to teach?  (I don't have the book with me right now or I could give you the name.)

In my years of training I've met alot of famous instructors, the good ones are the ones who know how to teach, how to communicate, how to get the student to do their best  and exceed it.  Many times the good fighters aren't the best teachers or instructors they are the best fighters period.  Are there good teachers who aren't good fighters I believe yes.  Are there good teachers who are good fighters, yes.  Are there good fighters who aren't good teachers absolutely.

Last I leave you with this, the other night I was talking to another instructor and he was commenting on a school who had a person who acted as a coach for the students who were training for the Olympic TKD program.  He told me the guy wasn't even an instructor (nor even a martial artist) but that he was "a hell of a coach for the students".  As a coach he was helping/teaching the student to achieve their goals etc. etc.  

Again for the most part I agree with your posts, I just thought that it was a very general statement you were putting forth and I thought I'd try and put forth another view. 

With respect


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## John J (Apr 28, 2003)

Excellent thread! Some great view points given. Boxing is another example where there are some excellent coaches/trainers that have little, if any, ring experience at all.  

However, IMOan instructor MUST be able to demonstrate or has demonstrated his/her skills under "live fire" (so to speak). I believe the experience lends to his credibility, having tested what he teaches to prove himself worthy of the title. Although many individuals have put in the time / years of training (and for some...money) to attain this rank, there is only a small percentage that has actually shed blood, sweat & tears on the streets or in the ring, sparring. 

Instructors should always be involved in sparring sessions or pressure tested environments with his students and colleagues. If he does not, he either lacks the confidence, skill or has an ego problem. When I say ego, I dont mean he is worried of hurting someone but of getting hurt. 

BTW...if anyone has contact information for Don Bitanga, please e-mail me. I lost contact with his son Steve back in 91' and would like to touch base.  

,


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## John J (Apr 28, 2003)

>there is only a small percentage that has actually shed blood, sweat & tears on the streets or in the ring, sparring. 

Sorry, I should have clarified. Not that I hope any of you have had unfortunate experiences in the street but have actually had to use your martial arts. Therefore, testing or using your skill.

John


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## thekuntawman (Apr 28, 2003)

the arguement that you can be a good teacher or "coach" and you have not fought (or "played the game") before is not a good one for the martial arts. we are not talking about baseball or track. we are talking about a combative art, like the leaders of a military who are planning attacks.

you have to have experience doing what you say you are an expert in. and dont get me wrong i am not talking about streetfighting, all the way. i am talking about fighting with your art. if you never been in a fight (and yes, even matches are good enough) you cannot call yourself a "fighter" or expert of fighting. its like these so-called "blademasters" who sit around daydreaming about what a blade fight is like, they come up with neat drills, teach there ideas for 5 years, now they are "blade fighters".

when you speak of japanese or okinowan karate masters, this is not the same thing. i can be a master of karate with only true knowledge of kata and philosophy if i have been promoted by another master. in the philippine martial arts, we have only fighting technique, and unitl recently, no promotions to the master level. 

the arguement comes when you have people who dont want to fight, and they are finding reasons not to do it. i am not talking about going around to bars beating on people. i am talking about having matches with other experts, like how the tennis sisters (venus and serena) have become tennis masters. yes, there dad trained them, but they became masters by having matches with other players. he could not have created a tennis champion 15 years ago with his knowledge then, but he learned by learning from his daughters who are plaing the game. they learn from  the mistakes they made, and that is why they are so good now.

but this is not tennis, and when your students loose in their learning, the loss can result in injury or death. 

here is another saying for you guys,
a battle is not the place to learn lessons.


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## thekuntawman (Apr 29, 2003)

what i meant to say about the venus sisters, is that their dad was not an expert tennis player, yet he trained them into champions. they became champions, not because of what he taught them, but because they played so many matches, and he studied the way the game is played. so, he learned while they learned.

the martial artist, cannot do this with his students. before he can teach someone to fight (and even to defend his family or his own life) he should already know what he is talking about. somebody's life is depending on the trust the student has for his teacher. how will he know if his teacher knows if the technique will help him? to a teacher who never fought, he doesnt know. and if i use the sports/coach example, the students in the future will get a good martial arts, based on the learning and the mistakes of todays students. this is a dangerous way to become a good teacher. 

todays FMA student is doing this with the seminar method of teaching. he goes to seminars, and then trains by himself. the teacher doesnt know if the students will just take the information and absorb it with no testing. speaking of testing, there are almost no one who tests in the seminars using sparring. tournament participation is not required. fighting with conact is not required. so how does the student build his fighting ability?

dog brothers. wekaf tournament. since the teachers today do not make there own students fight, the student decides, i will go to some tournaments to test my fighting and then he learns the philippine martial arts over. next thing you know, you have "new and improve" modern arnis, "new and improve" jkd/kali, "new and improved" whatever. the new fighter takes it up on himself to teach himself how to fight, and he makes these new discoveries on the philippine martial arts, that a real martial arts school could teach him better in the first place.

all that, because some people think you can know how to fight, without fighting.

"fight without fighting" is a line in a bruce lee movie, people.


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## AldonAsher (Apr 30, 2003)

I have to agree with the spirit of this thread.  There are some aspects to your training you will never really understand or appreciate until you put it to the test.  Your system can be really good and your teacher may be topnotch. But the bottom line is, can you make it work?  

The more I fight, the more I appreciate what my instructors gave me.  There is nothing like full contact to produce moments of clarity.


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## Mark Lynn (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *the arguement that you can be a good teacher or "coach" and you have not fought (or "played the game") before is not a good one for the martial arts. we are not talking about baseball or track. we are talking about a combative art, like the leaders of a military who are planning attacks.
> 
> 
> ...



kuntawman

First off let me say that I agree pretty much with the majority of what you saying here in your posts.  Your examples of the Venus sisters is a valid one and your point taken.

However for the sake of discussion I disagree on the following points.

1) How can you be a master of karate with only true knowledge of kata and philosophy?
     a) "..if I have been promoted by another master."  Does this hold true for the FMA student as well?  What makes the FMA any different from any other martial art when it comes to being promoted.  If a master of karate promotes a student, and a master of the FMA promotes a student, than is there a difference between the two.

On the karate thought back when Itosu was training it was a hard life.  You had to know how to defend yourself and that was how the art/systems were taught for self defense.  After he had advanced in years he then decided to make the system available in a format for the educational system.  But this didn't mean he didn't know how to fight, just that he had chosen not to. (this was the point I was trying to make)

I would venture to say that the hard training that the masters of old went through in any form of martial arts is what made them what they are.  Whether they sparred alot or not.

2) "We have only fighting technique...."  In the past I think that this was so.  However the more modern systems have adapted for lack of a better term the japanese approach of systemizing their systems to teach much more than just fighting techniques.
[I AM NOT SAYING THAT JAPANESE SYSTEMS ARE BETTER OR WORSE OR THAT THEY ADD ANYTHING TO THE FMA]  The more modern FMA now have rank advancement, systemized teaching structures, it to was changed to be introduced into the school systems, and now have gone to tournament style fighting which is good and bad (in some aspects).  So I believe that a majority of the arts /systems primary purpose has changed to make it palitable to the public.  (This allows the art to live)

With respect


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## Mark Lynn (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *what i meant to say about the venus sisters, is that their dad was not an expert tennis player, yet he trained them into champions. they became champions, not because of what he taught them, but because they played so many matches, and he studied the way the game is played. so, he learned while they learned.
> 
> the martial artist, cannot do this with his students. before he can teach someone to fight (and even to defend his family or his own life) he should already know what he is talking about. somebody's life is depending on the trust the student has for his teacher.
> ...



Kuntawman

Again good point with the Venus sisters.

"the martial artist ,cannot do this with his students. befroe he can teach someone to fight(and even to defend his family or his own life) he should know what he is talking about."

I agree, however are you saying that a person can't defend themselves without knowing how to fight?  Can a person defend themselves from a weapons attack without having ever stepped foot inside a martial art school or a master's doorway?  I disagree.  Daily people defend themselves (kids and adults) without ever darkening the doorway of a training hall.

Is sparring a true way to learn how to protect yourself in a self defense situation?  I don't think so.  While it has it's place it's not the only way.  In fact I think it can lead to some bad habits.

1) How many fights have you seen where two people grab sticks and face off with each other?

2) For the BJJ student who gets down on the mat and wrestles for the submission locks (technically they are sparring) but is this good for self defense?

3) The TKD stylists who practice sparring but can't hit to the head (so they don't) is this realistic?

4) The Ultimate fighter in the ring (Pride or Octagon fighting) all bulked up on steriods and pain medication is this the way to train for self defense?

Each way here has it's problem when it comes to self defense training.  And yet each one is protrayed as being applicable to self defense and you talk to the instructors or the students and they will try and convince you it is the best way (their way).

Let me clarify the bad habits
1) Padded stick sparring can lead to you not recognizing leagitament hits that without pads you would respect more.
a) same goes for amour

2) BJJ or any submission fighting if you train for submission you could try and apply the same when you need to do something else.  Like get loose and get up maybe.

3) TKD olympic style fighting produces great kickers and good endurance, however the not protecting the head to hand techniques I think is counter productive for self defense.

4) And the Ultimate Fighting great sport but the possible drug habits formed (need I say more).

I'm not against sparring.  In my karate days that's the majority of what I did at my instructor's private dojo (it's still what some are doing to this day).  I understand this side of the discussion, I just see it different now than I use to.

With respect


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## Mark Lynn (May 1, 2003)

Everyone

I'm not knocking sparring, nor am I saying that it shouldn't be practiced.  It was the point or spirit of the posts that you must be a good fighter to be able to teach that I disagree with.

If you are wanting to be a great fighter than you should seek out the teacher who has alot of experience fighting.  However I think for the majority of students here in the states that we might teach, sparring isn't going to be the main reason that they come to class.  In fact it could turn them off if it is introduced to early (at least this is the thought in the karate world) (or it was the last time I was looking into it).

What turned me on to the FMA was seeing in one 8 hour seminar more things that I could relate to self defense than I had in 2 years of American TKD/karate training.  It was eye opening to say the least and what has started me on an 18 year quest now to study the FMA.  In time seeing the connections that existed between my primary system (TKD) and the FMA (and from there about every other system I've looked into) is what has kept me going and trying to learn more about the FMA.

Over the years I trained at my instructor's private dojo, and a couple of commercial schools, as well as taught some classes for a period of time as well.  However the majority of my skill and knowledge (TKD related) came from sparring in his dojo (garage) against people who were my seniors and getting my butt kick alot.

Now I was taught my katas and techniques when it was just me and my instructor (when people didn't show up) and I knew them pretty well.  The down side to this was that I missed out on a huge part of the TKD system because I didn't learn the skill drills.  Therefore when I taught, I taught good basics however I seriously lacked in other areas.  Nowadays another instructor and friend of mine and I feel we got left out in a sense being trained this way.

When I was in another town the big school there was from a former (then current) kickboxer.  He brought up a whole group of  student's/instructors who knew mainly how to fight but nothing about katas.  Imagine my surpise going to a tournament and seeing brown belt forms in black belt division (by 3rd and 4th dans) no one knew anything higher.  But they could spar.  Later on I watched a belt test where the testers got hurt because they were asked to do breaks they hadn't been taught how to do.  But they could all fight, except after they broke their hands.

And sparring for me wasn't real fun, in fact it was almost schiziod.  I was use to using almost anything, elbows, knees, sweeps, knees, kicks to the knees etc. etc.  However in any school I went  to (except my instructors) I had to tone it down.  That blew all of my set ups and then it was like relearning how to spar.  I adapated however.  

On self defense:
I think the FMA has some of the best it not the best methods of teaching weapon based self defense.  And many of the self defense techniques won't work when sparring.  However they can be trained for in controlled ways after learning the basic techniques.  Those basic techniques lead to other techniques which leads to seeing things in a different light (the connections) so to speak.  For instance:

1) First time I ever had to disarm a gun (a shot gun and a pistol) (in a aikijjitsu seminar on the spot with no instruction) I used an idea/principle that I learned in disarming a stick several years before.

2) Learning a staff disarm for the first time I applied the disarm I learned in Arnis and was able to teach it to my partner who couldn't do it.

3) Taking different weapons whether real life related (mag lites, wrenches, screw drivers, machetes, canes etc. etc.) or traditional  (staff, jo, tonfa, nunchaku, sai, kama, etc.etc.) and applying them to drills or techniques.

As instructors IMHO we are to help the student meet their needs not ours.  If their needs are self defense, self improvement, sparring whatever than we are to meet their needs.  If we don't then we won't have students.

It's late and I've rambled enough.


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## thekuntawman (May 2, 2003)

boarman,
you have good points, but i disagree about the uselessness of sparring. i believe that sparring is the closes test to a real fight that you can get, and it must be done in a strange place with strangers for you to have benefits. sparring with fellow students is to peaceful and comfortable, even when you are sparring hard.

i also feel that yes you can learn to fight without martial arts, and you can figure things out on your own, but you save time when you go to someone who has done it so many times before, and they are an expert at it. other wise you will be re-inventing and re-discovering what has already been learned.

and finally, a teacher is really betrays his students when he has them to depend there life on what he is teaching, when he does not even know if the teaching will save them when they really need it. in a traditional philippine martial arts community, any person you recognize as an expert will sooner or later be invited to show what he knows, and if you gave him false confidence in skills he really doesnt have, it is embarassing to him and your whole clan.


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## thekuntawman (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by The Boar Man _
> *kuntawman
> 
> 
> ...



a few genius men created good fighting styles without fighting, you are right about that.  like one is masutatsu oyama with his kyukushinkai karate. here is a guy who studied some karate styles, and used the idea of hard physical training to create superior fighters regardless of the technique they had, if it was superior or not, but they are stronger, faster and more durable than the average fighter. he was not known for fighting with other masters even when he was young (outside of his own classmates). another one i can think of is carlito lanada, the founder of kuntaw ng pilipinas. he had a background in japanese martial arts in a filipino community known for great fighters, but did not participate in tournaments or challenge matches. yet, when he created his own style, he trained some of the best fighters around. and mr lanada bested me in a friendly match when i was in my 20s and he was 60 i think at that time.

but the differences with these two men and many of the self made teachers we see in all countries, is that first, both masters paid there dues with a master who was already experienced in both fighting and teaching. they also believed in a very important thing which can be a substitute for superior technique, hard physical training. finally, as teachers they are able to modify their philosophy about the martial arts, because they trained many students to fight in competition with other gyms. and, just like the boxing trainer with a poor amature record, he learns from his pupil's experience. but this is such a small number of success out of the number who fail. you have a better chance of training students better when you already know, than if you learn as you go. yes, it can be done, but the chances are very small. if you look at cus damato and floyd maywether senior, it took many years of average students to get a star, when you compare it to angelo dundee, emmanuel steward and adrian davis, who have so many great fighters in his wing.

but you know, being a good fighter doesnt mean you will be a good teacher...:asian:


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## moromoro (May 2, 2003)

to the boarman, if you dont spar with the sticks how can you actually say you are good? its like target practice with blanks if you do not spar.....


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## Mark Lynn (May 3, 2003)

Kuntawman

Sorry I screwed up not qouting.

Anyway again please understand I'm not advocating not sparring, I was just saying it isn't the only way.  What I mean it is one piece of the system (an important piece!) but not the only piece.

Another good example of a good fighter was Jean Yevs Theriult (the ICEMAN) who was a kickboxer back in the 80's.  He learned (if I remember right) four simple kicks and dominated the Heavywieght division of PKA for several years.  But he earned the equivilent of a Yellow or Orange belt in a karate or TKD system.

Anyway you brought up some good points and I enjoyed the discussion.


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## thekuntawman (May 3, 2003)

hello boarman

your example of the ice man was a good one. i think a lot of the great fighters did not get a black belt (steve nasty anderson is one, i think), but you know in the philippine martial arts, they do not traditionally give out a black belt or "certificate". sometimes a teacher will "release" you, or he will say "that is all i have to teach you", or your time to stay with him is up, then its up to you to go and develop yourself. like bart said, most people did not even have a name of there style, just a personal method of fighting.

i dont think sparring is the end of it, but i believe it is something you have to have, yet so many teachers down play the importance of sparring and competition. many people teach "fighting" methods, they reject drills and form, but they still dont believe in sparring. i think this is too much theory. a good idea, but too much theory.

one person, in my opinion, is bruce lee. he had good ideas, good training methods, but his only testing is on his own students. just like a great fighters, like roy jones jr, they have good skills, but unless you put it to the test against the best fighters you can find, you skills will only go so far. bruce lee has access to the best fighters in the country, but he did not take the opportunity to test his jeet kune do/jun fan against them. (i think he sparred chuck norris once, and didnt do so good). now his followers like to quote his students to say what a great fighter bruce lee is, but the best person to ask would be another great fighter who he has fought. in the case of roy jones, he hurts himself when he is only fighting these pancake fighters, and not going after the best.

for the martial artist who has good techniques and strategies, you cannot rely on logic alone to say if you will be effective or not. you must have strangers to test it on. in my school, we usually have a fight night, but guess who comes to it? boxers, wandering martial artist (who do not belong to schools, they just learn a little here and a little there) and very few martial arts friends of my students (usually jujitsu and tae kwon do, who everyone likes to put down). the ones who know me, never show up, (or only to watch) and they never bring students. the martial artist is becoming a scared artist, especially the FMA ones.


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## Mark Lynn (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *to the boarman, if you dont spar with the sticks how can you actually say you are good? its like target practice with blanks if you do not spar..... *



Moromoro

Sorry I didn't have time to respond yesterday.  To a degree I agree with you.  I believe in sparring as part of teaching the art or system just not the whole art.

Actually I don't say I'm good (at least I haven't been touting that here that I know of), and I don't have as much experience sparring with sticks as I have with empty hand.  In fact I'll be the first one to say I need more experience at it.

My problem has been training partners.  Because of my job I haven't taught except on the side for the past couple of years, and that has been to some other instructors (karate buddies).  And since these guys all live 1 hour away when we get together we work more on drills and the system than sparring since they get together and work on the stuff in between our workouts.

These guys all know how to fight empty hand and they are not really worried about fighting with sticks.

I on the other hand recognize that in this area I do lack and I'm trying to rectify that by trying to get students in my area.  Which is why I'm trying to start a FMA class, and then in time I will introduce saprring in some form or another.

However one way I have checked my progress has been to go out and attend seminars and such in different areas on a variety of martial arts (although now mainly FMA related) and test my self in learning new material and applying things that I have learned and meeting new people.  In otherwords getting out of my safe zone and trying to work with as many people as I can.

Not having a FMA teacher here as a family member or living in an area where there are actual FMA teachers from the Philippines, I take what I can get.  In a sense I put my money where my mouth is and go out to learn whatever I can from genuine FMA (filipino)instructors first, and then the down line students.  I tell my friends and have even paid for them at times to go see someone like GM E. Presas because I pale in comparision.  I know once they see the real deal than they might be more serious about it.

Which is why I went out on a limb last year and brought him to the area and will again this year.  Because people need to see the real deal not just his down line student.  Not that you can't learn from the down line student or instructor.  Just I think people need to see the real deal.

Sorry again for the long post.

With respect


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## Mark Lynn (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *hello boarman
> 
> your example of the ice man was a good one. i think a lot of the great fighters did not get a black belt (steve nasty anderson is one, i think), but you know in the philippine martial arts, they do not traditionally give out a black belt or "certificate". sometimes a teacher will "release" you, or he will say "that is all i have to teach you", or your time to stay with him is up, then its up to you to go and develop yourself. like bart said, most people did not even have a name of there style, just a personal method of fighting.
> ...



Hello Kuntawman

I just spent an half an hour replying to your post and hit the wrong key (cleaning a hair off of the key board) and lost it.  Dang the bad luck.

Oh well long post short.

I thought Steve "Nasty" Anderson was a black belt, I know he fought in the Grand Championships in the Black belt division.

On Bruce Lee: from the instructors that I have met who trained under him he was supposed to be the real deal.  He had many fights in Hong Kong rpior to coming to the US, and he did have some fights here I think in Seattle, and in China town in LA or maybe Oakland.  Although one instructor that I know told me about another incident between Mr. Lee and another karate guy where he didn't do well.  I trust this guy but I have never found verifcation of the story so I don't know.

Other than that I agree with your post, I went into some other stuff before but it's time for bed.

I have enjoyed our discussion
With respect

Mark


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## moromoro (May 5, 2003)

> Because people need to see the real deal not just his down line student



man this is the TRUTH.................A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WEBSITE DISARGEE but i believe you need to learn from the source while the source is still out there................... A lot of down the line students are not worried about fighting ability, and simply care of the size of thier clasess and their "grades" also many have spent little time with thier GM's and also it is never the same as trining with the GM........


well man i think its great what you are doing,

and good luck with your training



terry


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## John J (May 5, 2003)

> And many of the self defense techniques won't work when sparring.



There is a difference between a "fight" and "self-defense". Therefore, the type, timing and execution of techniques may also differ. It is dependent on the engagement. I define a fight as the physical result of two or more individuals who engaged over a dispute. In other words, the verbal dispute is somewhat of a mutual consent. Self-defense is the reaction towards an attack that is for the most part is non-consenting. 

The training you do must also be geared towards this distinction but should be easily bridged together. However, a fight can turn into self-defense and self-defense can turn into a fight.


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2003)

There have been many conversations and (sadly) arguements on the subject before. I have little time to really discuss this, so I am merely here to state my opinion.

In a nutshell my stance is this:

Sparring and Semi-Sparring is good, and in fact vital to proper developement as a martial artist.

However, we must be realistic at all times. Part of this is realizing that in class sparring, tournament sparring, and things of the like are merely training tools, and not to be confused with REAL self- defense or combat. If you confuse the two and fail to realize the difference, I believe that it could cost you your life if you are ever forced to defend it.

So.... Sparring=good; just always keep reality in mind, that's all.


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## Mark Lynn (May 6, 2003)

moromoro

I stated before that I would be trying to bring GM E. Presas to the state of TX this summer.  I just received notice that he won't be making it ot the states this year.  What a let down, we had a great seminar last year and already I was generating buzz about him coming back.  Oh well maybe in 2004.

take care
Mark


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## Mark Lynn (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *man this is the TRUTH.................A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WEBSITE DISARGEE but i believe you need to learn from the source while the source is still out there................... A lot of down the line students are not worried about fighting ability, and simply care of the size of thier clasess and their "grades" also many have spent little time with thier GM's and also it is never the same as trining with the GM........
> 
> 
> ...



moromoro

I couldn't agree with you more here.  Not so much the grade issue but rather learning from the source.  This is why I have made it a priority to seek out instruction from the main men themselves whenever I can.  There is a big difference in watching and learning from someone like GM Remy, GM Ernesto, GM Toboada, and others than their downline students and instructors.

And I'm not knocking the downline instructors either, I've attended seminars/camps with GM Remy's MOTTs and Jeff Delaney and I've learned from them as well.  Likewise I'm planning on attending the symposium that Dr. Barber is putting on to learn from GM Remy's other students.  In fact while no one can teach or demonstrate the way GM Remy did, at the 2002 camp I attended the MOTTs did a good job and showed me some different applications of GM Remy's material and since their wasn't any language problem they went into greater detail than GM Remy usually did.

All in all though I take the real masters any day.

Take care
Mark


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## Black Grass (May 7, 2003)

Moromoro wrote :
>A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WEBSITE DISARGEE but i believe you need to learn from the source while the source is still out there.

I would disagree some what, but not entirely. Yes I believe that everyone should eventually train with the source ( the GM) eventually. 

However, I believe depending on the teacher (GM) it can be more benifical to train with a undeling or as you say  'down the line students'. In some cases the GM can't express accurately what he trying to get across, he can show you, but explaining it is another matter.

An examples that comes to mind is Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo. I remember watching Tatang and Edgar Sulite doing 'laro-laro' a freestyle give and take drill. Watching I had no idea what Tatang was doing, he was just so fast it was hard to follow. It took Guro Edgars explaination for me to understand the subtilties. I was just a beginning student of kalis Ilustrsimo with Christopher Ricketts (but not a novice at eskrima). At the time if I was to train directly under Tatang I would probably not learned anything other than pain. 

Vince
(aka Black Grass)


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## Rob Wilson (May 7, 2003)

Howdy,

Here's 2 cents on a really interesting and informative thread:

1.) Teachers: I can learn something from everybody whether it is a concept from a master or a bit of "no way will I do what that guy did unless I want a cracked skull" reality from Joe Average. I try not to confuse great teachers with great fighters but in their own way each contributes and that is all that matters to me.

2.) Sparring: This, to me, is the ONLY way that you can learn to really appreciate how dangerous that stick can be. All the fancy techniques that work so well in front of the mirror are probably gonna go out the window along with a good chunk of your head when you get down to the real deal. (Unless you use them for faking, feinting or set-ups, or follow up.) The truth of the fight with a stick : WHACK WHACK somebody has a busted hand or face and is headed for worse. I think pads are good for beginners and I like gloves a whole lot but for the reality to set in you need pain. Plus nobody in the real world is going to wait for you to put on your gear. I have sparred with padded stick against guys who just don't realize that the shots they are taking would probably kill them without the pads and helmet. When we spar live stick they can't believe the difference- to me, WHAT difference? I don't like pads at all and I don't like pain at all; so I respect the other guy and use my head (but not to block).

Padded stick equals humiliation but live stick equals humiliation and pain- you guess which helps people remember better.

Thanks. Climbing off soapbox now.

Rob


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## Mark Lynn (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *Moromoro wrote :
> >A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WEBSITE DISARGEE but i believe you need to learn from the source while the source is still out there.
> 
> ...




Vince

I agree with your post.  In one of my earlier posts I mentioned how I perfered to try and seek out the GMs or the sources so to speak.  GM Remy was a great teacher by demonstrating however his instruction on the fine points of the technique was lacking in areas.  Of course the plus side to this was that it really made me think about the techniques and such and I (we) weren't spoon fed.  Of course this also led to some confusion as to what the proper way to do the technique was between the students.

However I have gained more instruction about the techniques from his downline students/instructors so it helps to have it both ways.

GM Remy (and others) were (are) so far ahead of their students that watching them gave (gives) others a idea of what to shoot for.  And to me that is the main goal of going to see them (seeking instruction from the GMs). 

I went to a Akijujitsu seminar with a certain instructor, this guy was incredible.  Absolutely did things that seemed magical in a sense with his throws and such.  Now not that I could use his techniques, however he left such an impression on me of what could be accomplished with hard work and making an art/system their own.  It was like catching a glimpse of the far off mountain in the clearing fog.  You knew it was there, but you couldn't see it, now you get a glimpse of it and you can start your journey to it, knowing that someday if you stay the course you'll get there. 

And that to me is the real value of seeking the sources even if they don't have the communication skills.  You see how the system works at a higher level and what to strive for. And for this reason I try and encourage people to see them.

But I'll learn from anyone.

Mark


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## thekuntawman (May 7, 2003)

rob wilson's post was made with a lot of wisdom. especially when he sad that sparring is THE ONLY way to learn the stick. just like riding a bike with no wheels, you only have the concept with out it, not the real thing.

i also agree with paul, about the sparring is not everything with learning to fight. but understand what makes me laugh at so called "filipino martial artist/fighting expert/combat instructors", that when you mention spar or tournament, the first thing out of there mouth is to say how unrealistic it is. you think we dont know that? of course we do, but like a loud can that's empty, you can tell whats in it by the noise it makes....these enemies of sparring and tournaments are afraid to fight, and they probaly cant fight, so they make sparring and tournament look like they are unimportant and harmful to martial arts training. just once i would like to hear FMA people say, sparring and tournaments are necessary part of martial arts training, and thats it. you dont have to tell us its not a street fight, we no that!

now, about learning from the source. what source are we talking about? source of the guy who is popular? source of the guy on the videotape? so what somebody has the title of grandmaster! most of the people we see as FMA TOTAL authority in the US are not the fighters you will learn the most from. what moromoro is talking about (that makes people so uneasy) is, that, you should also look at people who are not so popular. the ones who actually did the fighting, and dont fly around from city to city giving certificates. you know, before ernesto presas came to the US to do seminars, nobody was interested in him. i even heard a modern arnis teacher (who is on this board) say, that remy is the fighter not ernesto. funny. see in this country, you can buy your reputation or plan it, with your advertising. and this "hype" is what people look for when they decide what is the "best" style to learn. the source? how about go to the source of the philippines and find a teacher, even if you never heard of him. when i was introduced to ernesto and roberto presas, i didnt even know they are related to remy presas until i heard somebody say it (the style was called arjuken and presas style arnis). back then you could not get a foreginer to go into yaw yan, now, everybody want to go to a "yaw yan seminar" (good luck..)


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## thekuntawman (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> Sparring and Semi-Sparring is good, and in fact vital to proper developement as a martial artist.
> 
> ...



sorry i had to go.

anyway, i agree that sparring is not as realistic as a streetfight. but my question is, what is? the "realistic" combat experts like to put down sparring and tournament, but what do they think IS realistic training? prearranged technique practice?  that is all i see them doing. they even put down full contact fighting and mix martial arts.

well back to my last posting, it is true that many teachers who were fighters are not good at teaching there style or not good in communication. BUT, does this mean you cant learn from him. or does it just mean you cant learn the way you want to learn from him. yes somebody can explain it in a softer way, or show you in a way you understand right away. but believe me the good fighters probably did not learn this way, but they still became good fighters. i learned this way, the hard way. i did not get a lot of explanation and "concept" when i was younger, but in fighting i did learn a lot myself, and i came to understand a lot of concept. some of it i realize it after looking back and talking about it. so which is the superior way to learn, the classroom/quick/right away learning? or learn it by doing? who is the teacher? one of the problems with the martial artist today is, he thinks he knows everything because of what he reads in magazines and on the internet. so now you have a guy walk away from a good teacher, because he is not "getting what he wants" from the teacher, or he "is not learning the way he things he should". arrogance and ignorance.

i would rather learn from a mike tyson, who can do what he is teaching, than one of the seminar muay thai expert who has never been in a fight, but he is "excellent teacher and technician". you guys are trying to learn without fighting, and you only fool yourself.


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## Rich Parsons (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *. . . you dont have to tell us its not a street fight, we no that!
> 
> now, about learning from the source. what source are we talking about?
> ...



thekuntawman,

So, if I choose to train with someone in this country who is Filipino and is not well known, is that good enough for you? Or, do I have to travel to the PI to get instruction even if it may or may not be as good or what I am looking for?

If I show up at your door, I still contend that most will not "PLAY" or spare with me. So, how do I fight? I know you said go to tournaments and ask around. Yet, let me ask, if I have faught with a stick and without a stick, on the matts and out on the streets? Does that count? Or does it have to be a fight that took place in the PI?

I respect pride in one's culture and one's country or heritage, yet I ask these questions out of respect to gain knowledge of your opinion.

Thank you
:asian:


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## thekuntawman (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *thekuntawman,
> 
> So, if I choose to train with someone in this country who is Filipino and is not well known, is that good enough for you? Or, do I have to travel to the PI to get instruction even if it may or may not be as good or what I am looking for?
> ...



it should not matter if something is good enough for me, i am only making a suggestion from my own opinion.

when i was talking about a teacher who you havent heard of before, i am only saying dont just chase after the teachers you read about in the magazines or the ones who make all the videos. if you have been in the martial arts for a few years, you should be able to see for yourself if a teacher has skills or knowledge. but some of the teachers who do not have big organizations or people who write stories for them are over looked, and new people they might meet will look past them because they dont have a "reputation" that they are looking for. most of this crowd i am not worried about as a teacher myself, because those are the kind of students i dont like. but at the same time i dont like to hear somebody being called the best, or better than other teachers (like me), just because this guy made a tape and we didnt.

but if you dont go to the philippines, but find a teacher here, that is fine. of course you dont have to go to the philippines to find a good teacher, and you dont have to fight in the philippines, but it is an experience that would be very good for someone who wants to call himself an expert of the philippine martial arts. but when a so-called expert wants to always question why would he want to go to the philippines, or ridicule training in the philippines, he is looking stupid. but it is very hard to find the kind of training you can do at home here in the US, and also very hard to find the people to spar with. why is that, its because most of the FMA people in the US dont believe in fighting. 

you asked "So, how do I fight? I know you said go to tournaments and ask around. Yet, let me ask, if I have faught with a stick and without a stick, on the matts and out on the streets? Does that count? "

it you fought in the street that is good, but how much? a few fights is good, but as an expert you need a lot of fights. so you dont go around fighting all the time, so sparring with friends and tournaments is the next best thing, not doing drills.

how do you fight, you avoid seminar junkies and go to tournaments to meet people who enjoy sparring. you are not going to meet that many people in seminars who spar, except for maybe a doce pares or dog brothers seminar.

i think its funny that all these people say they love the FILIPINO martial arts, and philippine culture, when at the same time they say they dont care about going to see the country, learning the culture, and especially argue when anybody recommends going there. everytime somebody says, go to the philippines, everybody yells "what's wrong with studying here in the US? i'm not good enough? pride in our own culture is not an insult to yours. if sounds like some people have an inferiority problem. you know, i have to hear how great this country is, and how everybody should be more like us....its only fair you listen to another persons boasting sometimes.


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## John J (May 9, 2003)

IMO...the standard of teaching and level of competency in the FMA is diminishing and will continue to do so for as long as the focus is on making money or the "who's who?"


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## bart (May 9, 2003)

> IMO...the standard of teaching and level of competency in the FMA is diminishing and will continue to do so for as long as the focus is on making money...



*TRUE!* 

FMA _worth_ money, but it shouldn't be _about_ money. There is nothing wrong with selling what you're good at. There is much wrong with being dishonest and delivering a substandard product. It's a shame how some people sell belts and rank but don't base those belts and ranks on skill, practice, and knowledge.



> ...or the "who's who?"



It depends on how the "who's who" is measured. If it has to do with empty rank, then yes. But if it has to do with capabilities as an instructor, or as a practitioner, fighter...then I think that it may add instead of take away.


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## moromoro (May 20, 2003)

> However, I believe depending on the teacher (GM) it can be more benifical to train with a undeling or as you say 'down the line students'



man, you have to train with the main teacher preferable one with real fighting experience, there are alot of guys who are still alive and well in the philippines, while you have the chance train with them....

YOUR FOLLING YOURSELF IF YOU TRAIN WITH SOMEBODY WHO CANT FIGHT (never had a fight)>>>>>>>>>>>>>end of story...

also it is the FMA it is from the philippines it is a creation of the filipino people, SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THE LAND AND PLACE OF ITS BIRTH, how can you call yourself a FMA instructor if you dont care about the culture or dont care about going to the philippines.....................


ITS FUNNY HOW PEOPLE HIDE FROM SPARRING, they say all kinds of things like its not real enough, well we know that but if its not real enough it should be a heck of alot easier than a real fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
my teacher GM Navarro wlaked into the first national arnis tournament in 1979 cebu city with firm belief that his combat skill would set him apart from his challengers( also he sparred all the time so for him sparring is a lot easier than real fighting), He fininshed the GM sparring division as the most victorious GM with 3 victories he was the only one not to wear hand padding he fought Cacoy Canete in the final (cacoy only match of the day) GM carlos navarro pushed cacoy out of the ring and on to the crowd we have a photo of this, after this GM navarro just gave up and to the crowds amazement they annouced Cacoy the winner they crowd strated to chant Carlos name calling out white hair white hair for carlos gray hair, ask anyone in Cebu about this they will tell you!!!!!! also they filmed this event but the film and video are gone?????????????naraphil didnt show them....????

the bottom line is there are some awesome GM's still out there who are real fighters, if you find them train from them you will learn alot more than from many other FMA who's GM just simply are not fighters.......

thanks

terry


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## John J (May 20, 2003)

> It depends on how the "who's who" is measured. If it has to do with empty rank, then yes.



Let me clarify, when I said "who's who", I meant the general public typically goes with the styles that are mainstream and may end up with an incompetent instructor. Regarding a "who's who" of empty-hands, I somewhat agree. There are many great empty-hand fighters/teachers without the rank or hype.


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## Rich Parsons (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *man, you have to train with the main teacher preferable one with real fighting experience, there are alot of guys who are still alive and well in the philippines, while you have the chance train with them....
> 
> YOUR FOLLING YOURSELF IF YOU TRAIN WITH SOMEBODY WHO CANT FIGHT (never had a fight)>>>>>>>>>>>>>end of story...
> ...



Terry,

But you see I cannot go to the PI, for all I will find there are people who do not like Amreicans. (* see news articales about people being kidnapped and or killed *) I will see people who do not want to teach the lazy good for nothing Americans. You see they all will have attitudes just like you. You have judges all Americans by a few, so I have to assume by your logic that all Filipinos still in the PI are just like you.

Please Note: All those I have had the priviledge to meet her in the USA, have been nice and friendly and polite. So, I guess there is nothing left in the PI for me to want to go see. Is this the effect you are going for here Terry?

I apologize, for I do not truly believe the Filipinos are rude and or all against Americans. I train with one weekly, and am Blessed by knowledge Manong Ted Buot is willing to impart to me. Yet, the other Filipinos and those of other countries of origin I have the chance to train with most have been good and knowledgeable. I was just giving my opinion oh how _'OTHERS'_ might see this.

Have a Nice Day
:asian:


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## moromoro (May 21, 2003)

> I will see people who do not want to teach the lazy good for nothing Americans. You see they all will have attitudes just like you. You have judges all Americans by a few, so I have to assume by your logic that all Filipinos still in the PI are just like you



funny that whenever i mention training in the PI.....people start getting defensive and downright ridiculous, they come up with alot of different excuses...

We filipinos love americans, and if you go you will have a great time, great hospitality,
Many dont appreciate foreigners 
 ABUSING THE FMA ..........................

Go to Cebu city and say your an american GM and say you want to teach them lessons........ I often wonder how the outcome will turn out...........


thanks

terry


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