# Could BJJ use this?



## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Provided they were wearing kimonos, could a BJJ practitioner use this professional wrestling move as a submission hold??

http://www.catchwrestling.com/pictures/historical_pictures/pages/54fra04deglane-krumin_jpg.htm


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## Andrew Green (Sep 17, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Provided they were wearing kimonos, could a BJJ practitioner use this professional wrestling move as a submission hold??
> 
> http://www.catchwrestling.com/pictures/historical_pictures/pages/54fra04deglane-krumin_jpg.htm


Yes, a variation on that type of technique is fairly common from spider guard.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Yes, a variation on that type of technique is fairly common from spider guard.


What does BJJ call this variation?  Is it in Portugeese?  Is there a website where I can see the BJJ version of this thing?

Thanks!


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## Andrew Green (Sep 17, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> What does BJJ call this variation? Is it in Portugeese? Is there a website where I can see the BJJ version of this thing?
> 
> Thanks!


Usually a Bicep splice, in catch I believe they call it a arm scissor... or is it short arm scissor...  something like that I think.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Usually a Bicep splice, in catch I believe they call it a arm scissor... or is it short arm scissor... something like that I think.


Thanks for your input Andrew,

Just out of curiosity, what is your personal opinion of this photograph?


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## Andrew Green (Sep 17, 2004)

I'm having a hard time invisioning a useful set up that would lead into that technique done in that position...


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I'm having a hard time invisioning a useful set up that would lead into that technique done in that position...


Yeah, but these guys got into it somehow.  It looks like the referee is going to need some help to untie them.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 17, 2004)

First question would be is it a shoot or a work?

That might explain how they got there.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> First question would be is it a shoot or a work?
> 
> That might explain how they got there.


Hi Andrew,

Sorry, I know nothing about BJJ, and I don't know what 'shoot' or 'work' refers to in matwork.

But I think there is a methodology to go into this, just as there are for all judo newaza (mat techniques).

Personally I think the pro-wrestling of the 1960s was a lot more realisitic than the non-sense I see in today's WWF.  I think those 60 era or earlier pro-wrestlers would give any body today a hard time.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 17, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Sorry, I know nothing about BJJ, and I don't know what 'shoot' or 'work' refers to in matwork.


Nothing to do with BJJ... has to do with Catch

Shoot - Real fight

Work - Predetermined outcome

Catch evolved into worked fights from shoot fights. 

Early then the 60's things where being worked, just they weren't as blatantly obvious about it.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with BJJ... has to do with Catch
> 
> Shoot - Real fight
> 
> ...


What's the diff between catch and pro-wrestling?


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## Fight with attitude (Sep 17, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> What's the diff between catch and pro-wrestling?


It's the same thing...in the 1800's pro wrestling was catch wrestling...catch wrestling just means submission only wrestling.. no pins.

What they use to do was have a best 2 of 3 match..the first collar and elbow..the second was an Olympic style match..and the 3rd if needed was catch wrestling.

Later it got put into one..catch and Olympic style.

BTW the pic is a work.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

Fight with attitude said:
			
		

> It's the same thing...in the 1800's pro wrestling was catch wrestling...catch wrestling just means submission only wrestling.. no pins.
> 
> What they use to do was have a best 2 of 3 match..the first collar and elbow..the second was an Olympic style match..and the 3rd if needed was catch wrestling.
> 
> ...


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## Fight with attitude (Sep 17, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> How can you tell? Uke looks pretty upset about his situation.


I've seen this pic around before...one of the last shoots took place in 1915...there were a few shoots in the 1920's and this wasn't it.


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## Shogun (Sep 18, 2004)

Its a definite work. I have Pro wrestling (worked) training, under a local indy fed. worked matches have fake pain. like WWE stuff.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 18, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Provided they were wearing kimonos, could a BJJ practitioner use this professional wrestling move as a submission hold??
> 
> http://www.catchwrestling.com/pictures/historical_pictures/pages/54fra04deglane-krumin_jpg.htm


 
The closest thing I could find to this in judo is the Ashi Sangaku Garami (which looks like a hammer lock done with the legs), but has now been banned by the IJF.


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## ace (Sep 18, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> The closest thing I could find to this in judo is the Ashi Sangaku Garami (which looks like a hammer lock done with the legs), but has now been banned by the IJF.



Neil Adams show a very close move to this
In his Armlock Book & on the Video Modern Competive Judo.

A good set up for this Move is When Your Oppent is Trying to stop U from
for Jujigatame , Cross Armlock or in PRO -Wrestling Terms 
CODE RED. 

Put The knife edge of your for arm into the Elbow
Lets Say it's Your Lef Arm U Then  Wrap Your Left Leg over the Top
And sit Back towards Your Left Shoulder.


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## Shogun (Sep 19, 2004)

CODE RED is also the name of a sunset flip/powerbomb combo.


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## 8253 (Sep 19, 2004)

anything can be used as a submission move.


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## Fight with attitude (Sep 19, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> anything can be used as a submission move.


True..but the trick is could it be done against a resisting parnter.


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## JDenz (Sep 19, 2004)

Bicip crushes are very very painful and work very well agianst resisting partners.  In fact I would say a bicip crush hurts worse then a stright arm lock.  (of course not if the guy breaks stuff I am just saying in a regular grappling sesson.


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## 8253 (Sep 20, 2004)

Fight with attitude said:
			
		

> True..but the trick is could it be done against a resisting parnter.



It could, you just have to be more vicious than your opponent when applying submissions.  Same thing goes for any other type of movements.


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## ace (Sep 21, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> CODE RED is also the name of a sunset flip/powerbomb combo.




Thats Intersesting to know.

I learned the term Train with Duke Blackwell
Who Wrestled for ACWA & in Japan..

Craig Pitman Use to Use code Red as his Finishing hold
during his Tour with WCW.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 29, 2004)

JDenz said:
			
		

> Bicip crushes are very very painful and work very well agianst resisting partners. In fact I would say a bicip crush hurts worse then a stright arm lock. (of course not if the guy breaks stuff I am just saying in a regular grappling sesson.


Because I am such a newbie to BJJ, could you give me a brief comparison of BJJ to Catch wrestling?  Thanks!


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## Bod (Sep 30, 2004)

Start with a triangle choke.

Uke gets his arm free and bent to push against the bent leg of tori.

Tori catches the elbow crook of Uke and putts his own arm through the hole, in an effort to lever it back.

Uke manages to get his head out of the triangle leading to tori holding only the bent arm in the triangle and ...

Voila!



Probably not how they got there in real life though.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 30, 2004)

It seems to me that this technique has potential.  A variation of this weird arm lock appears plausible, and it would catch your opponent way off guard.



			
				Bod said:
			
		

> Start with a triangle choke.
> 
> Uke gets his arm free and bent to push against the bent leg of tori.
> 
> ...


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