# DK Yoo Awesome Martial Artist? Fighter? hmmm You decide



## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2021)

So I always like to see people put their "money where their mouth is."  In other words don't just talk big and look big.  Show everyone that you are willing to put something on the line.  Like they say "Put up or Shut up."

So  on that note.  DK Yoo has done just that.  For those who don't know DK Yoo.  Watch this video.  The guys is fast.  Looks like he has a lot of skills.  He's taught big seminars all over the world and knows 15 Martial Arts According to the video.  





So today  is day the rest of you who haven't seen this video, will finally know if DK Yoo can really apply his skills.  You'll be as thrilled as I was, because this was always on my mind. lol.   I actually found this video when I was searching for Baton and Cane fighting techniques that weren't Bull.  Not quite sure how Baton = DK Yoo in the ring but here it is..  The truth of DK Yoo..

For Martial Arts perspective






From  @Terrible Tim Witherspoon   I watched this a second time just to see what your thoughts were lol.  Tim ha ha ha.. you are either in Business or you are the most positive guy in the world or both ha ha ha..  You aren't a "Glass Half Full Guy."  You are a "Glass Full Guy"  "Glass filled half with water and half with air = a full glass" ha ha ha.   But keep on with being who you are.  This place could use a lot of positive stuff.  But today, I'm going to speak my mind after watching many of his videos. lol.  Sometimes people put themselves in bad situations by claiming to be more than what they are.  DK Yoo has just stepped in that box.

You are definitely passion about boxing.   Based on DK Yoo's professional dealings with self-defense and "fighting" Bradley was actually the Under Dog lol.  






My personal thoughts on this.. Damn DK Yoo.  I'm very disappointed.  I would at least thought that you would have have the Boxing skills that you claimed to have or that someone claimed for you.  Between Boxing and Martial Arts.  Boxing is much easier.  Learning TMA is difficult,  especially because of how many schools teach it.  But this guy.  Whew!.  Well that's all I'll say about it.  Lots of disappointments probably more because I know he got paid a lot of money to "teach others how to fight"  And this is all that we get?  Fight how you train.  

For me. it's ok to lose a fight so long as you lose it with what you train.  That means you came out represented your system and gave it your best.   But if you have been training for 20+ years in martial arts and this is the best that it gets?  Come on  now.   That's what I dislike the most.  Represent your system.  I don't like Wing Chun and I've said that many times before.  But at least Wing Chun practitioners come out and they actually try to use Wing Chun.  Doing that will only make them better at Wing Chun.  So even if Wing Chun loses that day.  They would gain more knowledge about applying their fighting system.  You can build off that.  DK Yoo can't say the same thing.  At least fight someone in the same weight class.  Don't make things more difficult than it needs to be.    

I strongly believe that people fight the way they train to fight.


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## drop bear (Dec 29, 2021)

Boxing is a lot harder than people think it is.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Boxing is a lot harder than people think it is.


I didn't say it was easy.  I said, "Between *Boxing *and *Martial Arts*.  *Boxing is much easier*."  
Boxing.
1. Jab
2. Hook
3. Cross
4. Straight
5. Upper Cut
6. Overhand.

Martial Arts have those 6 + additional ones
7 Backfist
8 spinning backfist
9. Knife hand
10. Ridge hand
11. Palm strike
12 Vertical punch
13. Diagonal punch
14  Hammer fist
15. Chop
16 Spear hand
17.  Elbow strike
18. Chin na

And that's just some of the common ones.  It doesn't include any of the kicks, throws, sweeps, knees, and grappling that is also found in many martial arts systems.  That's why I have a lot of respect for Wing Chun martial artist who try to spar and fight using the techniques they train.  Traditional Martial artist are also at a disadvantage simply by the number of sparring hours that many school actually use.   I'm not saying Boxing is an easy thing to do.  But it's easier than trying to learn to fight in many traditional martial arts systems.  Compare the number of boxing students who actually spar with the number of martial artists in a school that actually spar.

Compare how Boxing has coaches who have actual experience boxing in the ring vs Martial Teachers who may have never used there techniques in sparring let alone in competition.  So yeah Martial Arts is harder. lol  How many people did DK Yoo teach?  What was his actually sparring experience or fight experience? 

Learning to fight from a person who has never used the technique in a real fight or in a sparring match makes this a lot harder.  If Boxers trained the way that some of the Martial Artists trained and learned from people without experience in using the technique.  Then I would be saying Boxing is harder than Martial Arts. 

One of the best martial arts coaching videos out there for learning how to fight with Kung Fu. Out of the 2 minutes of sparring their teacher only asked for 3 things.  
1. Clean Technique
2. Technique from form
3. No boxing. No boxing hand






I can press keys on a piano all day long.  I can do piano drills all day long.  But I'll never be able to play a song on the piano until I practice playing a song using my piano skills.

Fighting is like that to.  A person can practice jabs and do all the drills. But that person will never be able to fight with boxing until they practice fighting using boxing.  This is what most martial artist don't do.

If it takes 700 hours of practicing playing piano to get this good.   How many hours of practicing fighting,  using the techniques that you rain, do you think it will take for you to get good?    How many hours a year do you think most Martial Artist spend sparring?  Is it really enough hours to actually learn something? And that's only if you actually trying to use the techniques.   A martial artist can spend 700 doing basic kicks and punches in sparring, and they would still be bad fighting with the other system specific techniques.  Most martial arts schools probably spar less than 52 hours a year.  I was doing a little more than 104  hours a year worth of sparring experience.  However, before I started the sparring classes.  It was like maybe 10 hours a year, if that many.


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## drop bear (Dec 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't say it was easy.  I said, "Between *Boxing *and *Martial Arts*.  *Boxing is much easier*."
> Boxing.
> 1. Jab
> 2. Hook
> ...



People think that. Then jump in the ring and it is suddenly like. Nope. This is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. Even if they have sparred.

Which is what happened to DK Yoo.

A good fight school will understand and adjust for that.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> People think that. Then jump in the ring and it is suddenly like. Nope. This is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. Even if they have sparred.
> 
> Which is what happened to DK Yoo.
> 
> A good fight school will understand and adjust for that.


Learn kung fu and the first thing that will happen is that your brain will explode as you try to get your body to do what want it to do lol.  The boxing gym provides a much better and more ready fighting environment than most martial arts schools.  With the exception of those gyms that focus on competitive fighting.   Go to a boxing gym and say you want to be a good fighter.. Then you'll get trained.  Say the same thing at a martial arts school and you'll get a lecture lol.


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Learn kung fu and the first thing that will happen is that your brain will explode as you try to get your body to do what want it to do lol.  The boxing gym provides a much better and more ready fighting environment than most martial arts schools.  With the exception of those gyms that focus on competitive fighting.   Go to a boxing gym and say you want to be a good fighter.. Then you'll get trained.  Say the same thing at a martial arts school and you'll get a lecture lol.


No twenty seconds in to a full contact fight. Your head is exploding and you can't make your body do what you want it to do.

But in a fight gym you get trained appropriately for the level of hardship you will face. Because they know it is a lot harder than you think it is going to be.

So regardless if DK has all these skills, techniques and athleticism. If the first time he was put in deep water was in the fight. Then he has a pretty big hill to climb.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Go to a boxing gym and say you want to be a good fighter.. Then you'll get trained.  Say the same thing at a martial arts school and you'll get a lecture lol.


This is a sad truth. If you (general YOU) hasn't learn how to fight in a CMA school, either your CMA teacher doesn't want to teach you how to fight, or he can't fight himself.

A: Dear master, in Karate tournament, when my opponent uses the earth strategy, moved in inch by inch with strong defense, what's the best strategy for me to use to deal with him?
B: You should not always think about fighting. You should think more about inner peace, and be a better person.

The above conversation is like a chicken talks to a duck. It's very sad that a inner peace teacher has a student who care a lot about fighting.


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## letsplaygames (Dec 30, 2021)

Not sure what DK Yoo was trying to do by taking that fight.  Big gamble that didn't pay off... (at least he didn't get KO'ed.  As said before... take a fight with someone close to your weight class!!!  Myself personally... I'd thrown in age too (or close to)

Anyone who has fought competitively.. There was no film footage of DK Yoo actually giving and taking in a sparring match... no official record... nothing.   Him standing in front of someone showed exactly that.  I've always wondered the same about Bruce Lee...  

_Not sure what is going on with Traditional Chinese Martial arts and the martial art world outside TCMA._

I don't get it.  (all hype about Fake masters getting exposed... one look at those guys and you knew they were fake... )

_Tai Chi Master Ma Bao Guo,  Chen Yong, the self-proclaimed sixth-generation Tai Chi Master of the Wu Style or .... Wei Lei, a practitioner of the “thunder style” of tai chi,  Come on really???_  Who actually thought any of those guys could actually fight (beside themselves and their sycophant clueless minions/students.)

  Was the outcomes that startling?  Really?   Shouldn't have been by most.  Seriously.... if you have trained in a real discipline just a once look over you'd deduced those people were BS.   Has the games of "Matador vs the Bull" i.e so often seen in Rou Shou, Tou Shou and even a lot of Chi Sao skill sets... finally been exposed as skills not to be relied upon when it comes to martial prowess?


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## drop bear (Dec 30, 2021)

I mentioned this ages back where this sort of training is not only bad for the guy doing it. But also for the guys getting it done to them. 

It creates tapout collapso monkeys.

And so after hitting guys and apparently killing them to hitting someone and doing nothing is a big difference.


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## BrendanF (Dec 30, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> There was no film footage of DK Yoo actually giving and taking in a sparring match... no official record... nothing.



Although he didn't have a fight record, there was footage of him sparring, boxing style.  It was decidedly average.


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## O'Malley (Dec 30, 2021)

DK Yoo's nothing special. Lots of show, little substance. The 15 MA claim is ridiculous and from the video you could immediately tell he's not "mastered" any of these. The fight went as expected.


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## BrendanF (Dec 30, 2021)

The 15 styles thing was never a claim - his claim was that with his unique system that he teaches in expensive seminar format, one can develop the _shen fa_ of these famous styles. It was just marketing playing off the 'spectacular' speed/demonstrations in his marketing video.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2021)

drop bear said:


> No twenty seconds in to a full contact fight. Your head is exploding and you can't make your body do what you want it to do.
> 
> But in a fight gym you get trained appropriately for the level of hardship you will face. Because they know it is a lot harder than you think it is going to be.
> 
> So regardless if DK has all these skills, techniques and athleticism. If the first time he was put in deep water was in the fight. Then he has a pretty big hill to climb.


Totally agree.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The above conversation is like a chicken talks to a duck. It's very sad that a inner peace teacher has a student who care a lot about fighting


ha ha ha I have never heard of that before but, yeah that's a good way to put it.



Paul Calugaru said:


> Not sure what DK Yoo was trying to do by taking that fight. Big gamble that didn't pay off... (at least he didn't get KO'ed. As said before... take a fight with someone close to your weight class!!! Myself personally... I'd thrown in age too (or close to)


Yeah that's always a good thing.



BrendanF said:


> The 15 styles thing was never a claim - his claim was that with his unique system that he teaches in expensive seminar format, one can develop the _shen fa_ of these famous styles. It was just marketing playing off the 'spectacular' speed/demonstrations in his marketing video.


Thanks for the clarification of that.  Sometimes Youtubers add to stuff that people haven't actually claimed.


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## Cynik75 (Dec 30, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Although he didn't have a fight record, there was footage of him sparring, boxing style.  It was decidedly average.


This one?


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## Holmejr (Dec 30, 2021)




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## BrendanF (Dec 30, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> This one?



Yep, that's the one


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## letsplaygames (Dec 30, 2021)

So DK YOO fakes the Philly clam... ok... & and displays  some form of weak long rhythm (don't really know cause the other guy never fired a real shot) ... &  Foot work?  Where? 

These are the things I look for when weighing and measuring someone... 90% of the fake masters getting beat up are void of these "Indicators"  Regardless of their claims,  IF they don't display "Key indicators"  to me it's all Bull **** at that point.  Any credible coach, sifu, sensei sees this.. No one with credibility was calling these guys masters... Not in the WEST not in the EAST.  Just because they call themselves masters doesn't mean they are look at Charlie Zelenoff (Nut job if there ever was one) those guys are no different.  

To be honest .. in many of the fights I've seen, being so lop sided... like watching a one legged man in an *** kicking contest, beating up old men or guys you have 50lbs on .. Not cool and proves nothing... 

I have mixed thoughts on all this TCMA Fake masters getting destroyed stuff on the internet.
With DK YOO... He jump into a pond that had a big fish that came from an ocean, learned that even though he was a big fish in his world... he was the equivalent of a small fish in the other guy's world.  One can only believe he was buying his own hype.  Yet...

Haven't we all done something like that? (in a martial sense, then had our *** handed to us?  I know I have ... it's part of growing/learning)  That said, I never peddled myself to the public as something I am not. * (for me that's where the rub is, other than that... ) *

_Props for him doing it, he needs to continue. he looks talented.. that's all I got. _


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> One of the best martial arts coaching videos out there for learning how to fight with Kung Fu. Out of the 2 minutes of sparring their teacher only asked for 3 things.
> 1. Clean Technique
> 2. Technique from form
> 3. No boxing. No boxing hand


So the above comments were meant to go with that video?  Do I understand that correctly?  I watched it without sound, so if something was said, I missed it. 

What is your honest assessment of the sparring in that video?  My assessment is not very flattering.  It was kind of a game of tag which is often the problem with sparring: you aren’t in it to destroy your training partner/friend, so little power is used, nothing decisive, and people just chase each other back and forth, trading ineffectual shots.  

There can be some benefit to this, it gets you used to (sort of, I guess) things coming at you although the intensity is low.  Perhaps that gets you innoculated (kind of) to the adrenal rush.  But overall this is very very far from a real fight or a real self-defense encounter.  This kind of sparring is, in my opinion, of little benefit.  I won’t go so far as saying it is useless, but I don’t put a lot of value on it. 

I recall many years ago I was at a health club in which I had membership, and was just quietly working on the heavybag by myself.  One of the trainers came in, I think part of what he offered his clients was some kind of combative a training, but I honestly don’t know for sure, although I am certain he had some training of some kind. 

He interrupted my training to ask what I was working on and we got to chatting.  At some point, a demonstration of something morphed into a sort of upright grappling entanglement, which seems to be what he was into.  I hadn’t sparred in years, never did do a whole lot of it, but I basically fought him to a stalemate.  We both kept our feet, he had my arms entangled in some fashion, but couldn’t get me on the ground, couldn’t get me into a decisively compromised position, and I held him off until we mutually separated, many minutes later.  It became something of a competiton of conditioning.  And of course I wasn’t kicking at his legs because, while I had just then met him, he was not my enemy and I didn’t feel it was an appropriate escalation. 

My point is, it didn’t take a whole lot of sparring experience to effectively and successfully engage in that kind of sparring.  Maybe I’m wrong and he was just toying with me the whole time, didn’t want to damage my delicate ego.  It’s possible.  But I don’t think so.  I think he was surprised that I, a non-grappler, held him off in such a way.  

At any rate, this is why I don’t put a high value on much of the sparring that is done.  Sparring can be useful, but it very much depends on how the sparring is done.  Not all sparring is equal. 

So I ask, what is your assessment of the sparring on that video?


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> So DK YOO fakes the Philly clam... ok... & and displays  some form of weak long rhythm (don't really know cause the other guy never fired a real shot) ... &  Foot work?  Where?
> 
> These are the things I look for when weighing and measuring someone... 90% of the fake masters getting beat up are void of these "Indicators"  Regardless of their claims,  IF they don't display "Key indicators"  to me it's all Bull **** at that point.  Any credible coach, sifu, sensei sees this.. No one with credibility was calling these guys masters... Not in the WEST not in the EAST.  Just because they call themselves masters doesn't mean they are look at Charlie Zelenoff (Nut job if there ever was one) those guys are no different.
> 
> ...


Me getting a big ego was never on that level.  It rarely went outside the school I trained.  I didt provide training to the Korean Special Forces. I never called out professional fighters.  I've spared with enough good martial artist and boxers to know my limits.  I never customize fight rules when competing in a fight.  Big difference in what he did and what others do when their ego gets big.


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Dec 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> So I always like to see people put their "money where their mouth is."  In other words don't just talk big and look big.  Show everyone that you are willing to put something on the line.  Like they say "Put up or Shut up."
> 
> So  on that note.  DK Yoo has done just that.  For those who don't know DK Yoo.  Watch this video.  The guys is fast.  Looks like he has a lot of skills.  He's taught big seminars all over the world and knows 15 Martial Arts According to the video.
> 
> ...


Let me give you my perspective. First DK is a kinesiologist and not a fighter. He did in fact conflate this with also being a fighter. That was a mistake no doubt. If anyone watched DK's sparring videos you would see he isn't an experienced fighter.  This fight was just entertainment and for fun. I spoke with Brad before the fight and he told me he wasn't going to hurt the guy. You see that is what makes Brad a professional. When he stepped in that ring he treated DK like a professional fighter should treat a novice. I commended him for that. I make it clear through the fight that true skills were absent, and he needed to train with me. Brad and I have even discussed having DK come with Brad to my camp and they will train together. In the end if people want to spend a ridiculous amount of money to hear DK talk about the kinesiology of the punch, kick and various movements in a fight, then fine.  The truth is people see what they want, and we love creating myths. I do give DK credit for stepping in that ring with a true beast! Brad is one tough guy. I did like how DK moved at times but as for being able to fight I made it clear skills were absent. Lots of politics in the martial arts world and I know people get real passionate about things. I am here to have fun and these types of matches should be seen by true martial artist as simply entertainment


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2021)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> I am here to have fun and these types of matches should be seen by true martial artist as simply entertainment


Yeah but you know it's not going to be seen as entertainment.  The main reason it won't be seen as this because he doesn't present it as such.  Nor does he claim that it's entertainment.  Nor do the people who pay for his seminars claim that.








Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> I do give DK credit for stepping in that ring with a true beast! Brad is one tough guy.


Yeah.  I wouldn't go as far as that (give respect for stepping in the ring). He stepped in the ring to do what?  Win? Show the skills that he teaches? To make money? To get lots of YouTube views?  To say he survived? and market that a non professional fighter was able to not only survive an ex professional fighter even with a spinal injury thanks to his techniques?






Clearly he didn't see it as a more experienced fighter going easier on a less experienced Martial Artist.  But then again he could be doing it for entertainment and to get money. Maybe I'm just old in my ways.  Win or lose be a good representation of the fighting system you train.  By using the skills you train. .


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> He stepped in the ring to do what?


When I see someone fight in the ring (on the mat), I try to see what kind of "door guarding skill" that he may use. What's "door guarding skill". A technique that you can make it work more than once in the ring (on the mat). In your clip, I haven't seen any of his "door guarding skill" yet.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I see someone fight in the ring (on the mat), I try to see what kind of "door guarding skill" that he may use. What's "door guarding skill". A technique that you can make it work more than once in the ring (on the mat). In your clip, I haven't seen any of his "door guarding skill" yet.


I don't think he ever had one to be honest.  He reminds me of students when they first try to figure out how to actually use the martial art that they are training.  They are constantly looking for an attack that looks like what they see in their drills..  They spend more time waiting for the punch or kick that will never come.  It doesn't occur to them at that point that they can trigger specific attacks that they want to get. 

Unfortunately I think a culture of Politeness and Respect is  not the best thing to have in training when asking for feedback.  A fighter or even a student should get honest feedback.  This will help protect the fighter from unrealistic thoughts of thinking he's better than he really is or from losing confidence in thinking that he's worse than what he is.  There's a lot wrong with this video in the way they praised his performance.






So in that video he states that he will prove that a martial artist can fight in a match.  So now we know what a little of what he was trying to prove in the fight.  Not sure why since there have been a lot of professional martial artist who have fought in professional fights., Unless, he thinks Martial Artist = people who train to fight but don't fight in competition?

Who knows. Maybe I'm just a person of basic logic.  If my Piano teacher teaches Piano then I expect that they know how to play the piano.  If someone teaches self-defense then I expect that they know how to use with they teach.  It only makes sense to me that way.


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## Cynik75 (Dec 31, 2021)

I wish he has fought as originally planned with Xu Xiaodong. Brad was gentle. Xu Xiaodong would just smash his face repeatedly till it looks like broken tomato.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think he ever had one to be honest.  He reminds me of students when they first try to figure out how to actually use the martial art that they are training.  They are constantly looking for an attack that looks like what they see in their drills..  They spend more time waiting for the punch or kick that will never come.  It doesn't occur to them at that point that they can trigger specific attacks that they want to get.
> 
> Unfortunately I think a culture of Politeness and Respect is  not the best thing to have in training when asking for feedback.  A fighter or even a student should get honest feedback.  This will help protect the fighter from unrealistic thoughts of thinking he's better than he really is or from losing confidence in thinking that he's worse than what he is.  There's a lot wrong with this video in the way they praised his performance.
> 
> ...



By the way. That is not really what I would call really hard fight camp sparring.


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## CB Jones (Dec 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Boxing is a lot harder than people think it is.



There is a big sugary sweet science to it that takes alot of training and time to learn.

Alot of hard lessons in learning it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 31, 2021)

It sort of comes down to your expectations. If you bought into DK Yoo's hype and believed that he was as bad-*** as he presented himself, then the fight would have to be disappointing. Brad dominated him easily from start to finish, even though he seemed to be holding back from knocking him out.

If you look at it from the more reasonable viewpoint of seeing a first time amateur fighter go up against a high-level pro (not to mention a pro who was significantly bigger and younger, then DK exceeded expectations. He didn't give up. He didn't mentally break. He did his best to protect himself at all times and did what he could to try landing some shots. He did better than I did in my first fight and my opponent wasn't nearly on Bradley Scott's level.

Honestly, even if DK had gotten a really good boxing coach and done a proper fight camp, it probably wouldn't have made a lot of difference.  An amateur taking on a high level professional in his first fight is going to get beat up. Giving up several weight classes and quite a few years just makes the situation worse. He might know what to do, but actually executing it against an opponent who has such an advantage in skill and experience is going to be hard.

Realistically, I don't think many of us on this forum (Terrible Tim excepted, obviously) have the experience to do well against a fighter of Brad's caliber. In fairness, most of us haven't presented ourselves as the second coming of Bruce Lee either, so I guess it balances out.


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## letsplaygames (Dec 31, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> I wish he has fought as originally planned with Xu Xiaodong. Brad was gentle. Xu Xiaodong would just smash his face repeatedly till it looks like broken tomato.


And here is the crux of the matter... And probably why Xu Xiaodong is in hot water.

I myself could have taken the Xu Xiaodong road several times... and only when I was pushed did I go down that road... (yes it ended badly for the "other guy"... yes he practiced a martial art... yes it was one of those stupid "My art is better than yours")  I could have beat my chest and said look at me I'm a badass...  The Marital Moralists in me stomped on that.   Aftermath... I felt bad, and vowed never to let myself be put into that situation again.  Sometimes it's best to let the clueless be clueless... You walk up in a kwoon that is based on _cultural appropriation/cultural ambassadorship... _the knowledge and depth of martial prowess doesn't exist... it's not why they are there.   Beating the vegan tree hugging instructor down in front of his people to prove that he's is fake...Um...  those people look up to him.. will only make you an uber douche in those people's eyes.  (it's a safe bet Xu Xiaodong is being seen as just that by many traditionalist in China)

Just who has Xu Xiaodong fought anyway? _(in reference to fake masters) _  For the most part, either it's been an opponent much older and slower, or much smaller. (yes, IK ... let's not forget the egos of the idiots who accepted the challenges by Xu, who actually believed their "Matador vs the Bull" gung fu worked.  ...&  Yes it's not only Xu Xiaodong beating the tar out of "fake Masters:  I get all that.  (but like I've been saying all though this thread... _No one who actually knows what they are doing.... thought those "fake masters" were worth anything.... _ Maybe the rub that the people who actually thought that "matador vs bull" gung fu worked... now understand?   IDK..?  )

I specifically remember a smaller Wing Chun practioner, who had some skill, that traded with Xu Xiaodong, & Xu not liking being on the loosing end of the trades, used his bulk, clinched and threw the WC'er to the ground and proceeded rain blows from above "ground and pound style" (point being .. if Xu was the same size.. it would NOT have been the same fight)

What you don't see is Xu Xiaodong going into a Sanda/Sanshou gym (where usually the head coach is grounded in some form of traditional Chang Quan) and putting on one of his beat down clinics.  He has the nick name of "Mad Dog" ... I suspect he's a_ "Fire & Forget" weapon_ type of guy... i.e. he acts first, worries about the consequences after.  _ From Wiki: In 2018 Xu was injured fighting in a series of sparring matches with kickboxers at a Chinese MMA gym. He was left with a fractured skull and needing 26 stiches around his eyebrow following his fourth sparring partne_r.

 How does that happen?  I've seen it in a boxing gym where you get a "loin chop" who thinks sparring is fighting, beats up and injures all the Newbies,  then the adults come over and and put a stop to the buffoonery (First one tires the loin chop out, second and so on....  put's the beat down on the loin chop and goads the loin (using the chop's ego)  into staying in the ring.  The more stupid, the more the beat down continues till the loin chop get's the message...  ****... I've seen return costumers... Loin Chops so hard headed they needed to be taught the  lesson twice .  (people training for up coming matches i.e. usually real good fighters...  usually avoid these types... often they hurt anyone training with them.) 

The above is something to consider before thinking Xu Xiaodong is some crusader of martial purity...(not saying you think that... just putting it out there.....  defiantly put's his foot in his mouth with the government (which just reinforces my personnel assumption of him)


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> By the way. That is not really what I would call really hard fight camp sparring.


yeah same here.  That would light borderline lazy sparring.  That type of sparing people do when they really aren't in the mood spar.  I also don't like the "Oh I'm 42 years old, There's no way to increase my Stamina" statement. That's a bunch of bull.  Hearing stuff like just sounds like a bunch of excuses to cover up his weaknesses.  Which to my knowledge he never says "I need to improve in this area"  it's always an excuse.



Tony Dismukes said:


> It sort of comes down to your expectations. If you bought into DK Yoo's hype and believed that he was as bad-*** as he presented himself, then the fight would have to be disappointing.


Actually it appears to be a couple of camps here.  You have supporters who will believe what DK Yoo came out on top because he did that well with spine injuries and fighting with one hand.  You have martial artists who wanted to see him use what he trains they don't care much about him winning they just wanted him to see him use what he trains,  After a kung Fu master after kung fu master failing to use what they actually teach.  I'm definitely in this camp Big time.  Then you have the camp of MMA fighters and ex fighters who see an experience fighter going light on DK Yoo because DK Yoo was outskilled.  Theres a splinter of MMA practitioners who wanted Bradley to really go at the fight and that Bradley should have just fought him with 100% effort.  They are disappointed in Bradley.  They are mainly disappointed because they think TMA is going to talk crap about how DK Yoo 

The majority of video reaction, which is a small percentage of what anyone thinks,  is the fight was less than genuine.  The feel that it was more of a publicity stunt than an actual competition.   Sort of like how people boo when they see a boxer throw a fight.  The disappointment wasn't so much about the who had the most skill but that they viewers wanted to see a competition between 2 skilled people but didn't get it.



Tony Dismukes said:


> If you look at it from the more reasonable viewpoint of seeing a first time amateur fighter go up against a high-level pro (not to mention a pro who was significantly bigger and younger, then DK exceeded expectations. He didn't give up. He didn't mentally break. He did his best to protect himself at all times and did what he could to try landing some shots. He did better than I did in my first fight and my opponent wasn't nearly on Bradley Scott's level.


I think this is where the honesty of the fight breaks down.  After hearing the things that DK Yoo stated before the fight and how this thing was marketed, it starts to feel more like a publicity stunt than a real competition.  I also don't believe Bradley was trying to actually put DK Yoo away.  I'm looking at his body mechanics and his aggressiveness and I just don't see it.  I've seen way too many fights to think that this is the case.  Just from a mechanics perspective you can tell when someone is putting a lot of power into their punches.   The more I learn the more questionable this match becomes. 

I'm having trouble finding a video of the fight where I can hear the sound of the punches land.  It's like the hardest thing to find for some reason.




Tony Dismukes said:


> Realistically, I don't think many of us on this forum (Terrible Tim excepted, obviously) have the experience to do well against a fighter of Brad's caliber. In fairness, most of us haven't presented ourselves as the second coming of Bruce Lee either,


This is called  being honest about ones fighting ability lol.  Hence the reason many of us do not claim to be a bigger fighter than what we are lol.  Plus it does wonders for preventing black eyes, getting teeth kicked in, and waking up in a different location that we went to sleep in  lol.   Many of use see to be better than we are the month before no more no less.  There's no quest to be the greatest.  to my knowledge many of us are also not trying to exploit other people for money through presenting ourselves has some kind of super human fighter.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> The above is something to consider before thinking Xu Xiaodong is some crusader of martial purity.


I always tell people that beating up a fake is no accomplishment.   If he really wanted to expose fake fighters then highlight find a good Kung Fu fighter and go against him.  I think once people see what real kung fu application looks like, then they will be better equipped to spot when fakes come along.  

We see a lot of this in here were our previous experience with martial arts, sparring, and fighting helps us to identify things that are fake which in turn helps us to stay way from those martial arts schools who lie about their ability and what they claim they are about.  Beating up a fake is basically showing that you are beating up someone of lessor skills to prove that you can beat someone of lessor skill.  Which is nuts.  It would be like a martial arts teacher beating up on beginners and trying to prove that they are no good.


----------



## BrendanF (Dec 31, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think once people see what real kung fu application looks like, then they will be better equipped to spot when fakes come along.



The difficulty with that is... there are differing camps re what 'real kung fu application looks like.'

The only time anyone has seen people use 'real kung fu applications' has been in staged fights, like those on those cctv4(? not sure if correct - the internal Chinese channel).  Otherwise it ... tends to just look like fighting -  and get called 'not real kung fu application'.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> The difficulty with that is... there are differing camps re what 'real kung fu application looks like.'
> 
> The only time anyone has seen people use 'real kung fu applications' has been in staged fights, like those on those cctv4(? not sure if correct - the internal Chinese channel).  Otherwise it ... tends to just look like fighting -  and get called 'not real kung fu application'.


Aye.  Generally ugly and inelegant, is the way it goes.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 31, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> The difficulty with that is... there are differing camps re what 'real kung fu application looks like.'
> 
> The only time anyone has seen people use 'real kung fu applications' has been in staged fights, like those on those cctv4(? not sure if correct - the internal Chinese channel).  Otherwise it ... tends to just look like fighting -  and get called 'not real kung fu application'.



A lot of what is done in kung fu is already contained in other striking arts.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> The difficulty with that is... there are differing camps re what 'real kung fu application looks like.'


Yeah you are right "real kung fu" is too general and vague.  How about Function Kung Fu fighting ability.



BrendanF said:


> The only time anyone has seen people use 'real kung fu applications' has been in staged fights,


Yep. Most people don't use it.  You can find some techniques in Lei Tai events but those tend not to get the Air Play or marketing that MMA vs Fake Kung Fu masters gets.  And back to your other statement there is also a misunderstanding of what kung fighting ability should look like.  People tend to want to see what they see in the movies but that's not very realistic at all.

It would be like watching the Rocky movies and then telling boxers that they don't fight like what they see in the Rocky movies.  Unfortunately I learned how to use Jow Ga too late in my years.  Had I known what I know now at the age of 20, I could have had a really nice competitive run and would have been able to compete in MMA events in my 30's.  I still don't think I would have tried to go professional.  Back then my mindset was not in the right place for learning Kung Fu.  I didn't have the right guidance or the money to train lol.  So I would have needed the money too.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A lot of what is done in kung fu is already contained in other striking arts.


Not sure how to agree with this.  Part of me wants to say yes and then I think of the other things I don't see in other striking arts. I guess one can say that a lot of the foundational stuff is there.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 31, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Learn kung fu and the first thing that will happen is that your brain will explode as you try to get your body to do what want it to do lol.  The boxing gym provides a much better and more ready fighting environment than most martial arts schools.


You should see my kitchen right now.  I made three racks of smoked baby back ribs, with lobster and crab mac n' cheese.


JowGaWolf said:


> And back to your other statement there is also a misunderstanding of what kung fighting ability should look like.  People tend to want to see what they see in the movies but that's not very realistic at all.


It is, and it isn't.  Sure, fights don't happen to a drum beat rhythm like in the Shaw Brothers films.

But, Hong Kong kung fu is some of the best athleticism ever caught on camera.

This is exactly what kung fu looks like.  Who doesn't think these are fighting skills?


----------



## BrendanF (Jan 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Who doesn't think these are fighting skills?



People who have never seen them performed in an actual fight?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You should see my kitchen right now. I made three racks of smoked baby back ribs, with lobster and crab mac n' cheese.


Yum.  Sounds like a good time on the horizon.



BrendanF said:


> People who have never seen them performed in an actual fight?


This is true on a lot of levels.
1. How many people actually have seen techniques like that usedin an actual fight
2. How many Sifu and instructors have seen techniques like that used in an actual fight
3. How many times have we seen these techniques used in an open competition (System A vs System B)
4. How many Sifus and instructors have actually used those techniques in an actual fight.
5. How many people have had those techniques used on them in an actual fight.
6. If a person hasn't seen it or hasn't used it then how does that person know it works. (For me there was a lot of trust, Probably the same with most students)

This is definitely an issue in terms of the perception of Kung Fu


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 1, 2022)

BrendanF said:


> People who have never seen them performed in an actual fight?


Are you doubting the fighting abilities of William Chong?

This dude in his prime would clobber most people here just on flexibility alone.

Flexibility wins fights all the time.  BJJ wouldn't work if it didn't.  He did half a dozen breakfalls in that clip, too.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yum.  Sounds like a good time on the horizon.
> 
> 
> This is true on a lot of levels.
> ...


How many?  Practically none, because the actual number is really small when you really think about it.

If you stood all the people who claim to do some sort of kung fu, 
next to all the people who actually do train, 
and again next to people who actually train and also compete, 
which of those three groups practically disappears?

I don't think that's a problem with kung fu at all.  It's a people problem, most people don't really want to train _that _hard.


----------



## Trondyne (Jan 1, 2022)

DK is a fake as far as I am concerned...  I don't care what he did in his little demo boxing match surrounded by all his own people and full of excuses before the fight and after...  

Most people don't want to fight....  They want the art to do the work for them....  When fighting becomes part of your normal training then you'll learn, develop and improve your skills... If you don't want to fight then your doing something else....  When Bruce came to Wing Chun he wanted to add to his fighting not have the art make him a fighter without fighting....  Big difference....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't think that's a problem with kung fu at all. It's a people problem, most people don't really want to train _that _hard.


"Most people don't really want to train that hard."  That makes it worse. So all the lazy people do kung fu?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> "Most people don't really want to train that hard."  That makes it worse. So all the lazy people do kung fu?


The lazy people don't train at all. 

But if you train hard, Kung Fu shows up.  That's just how it works.  Billy Chong trained like a beast in the real world, not some fantasy.  The end result was a made up style (Shadow Claw) that combined Eagle Claw and Shadow Fist in a pretty legit way.

Jow Ga's story is very similar to this movie, in terms of mixing and matching.  When you aren't good at a particular fighting skill...you go get it.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> "Most people don't really want to train that hard."  That makes it worse. So all the lazy people do kung fu?



Comparatively. Yes.


----------



## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Jan 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah but you know it's not going to be seen as entertainment.  The main reason it won't be seen as this because he doesn't present it as such.  Nor does he claim that it's entertainment.  Nor do the people who pay for his seminars claim that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think of it this way. Current professional champion boxers will not listen to a word I say. Yet trainers with little real experience can step in front of those same world class fighters and they will jump on broad their training program. This is the reality of the human condition. DK and Brad saw an opportunity and people are willing to believe fairy tales. It is just like the WWE, there are people who believe it is real. For people like you and I we understand what DK is doing. Interesting is the fact my largest watched videos are the ones I did on DK and Brad. You and I know this is all just entertainment but there those that view it differently.


----------



## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Jan 2, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> I wish he has fought as originally planned with Xu Xiaodong. Brad was gentle. Xu Xiaodong would just smash his face repeatedly till it looks like broken tomato.


He would have destroyed him! Lol Brad even told me before the fight he didn't want to hurt the guy.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 2, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> Interesting is the fact my largest watched videos are the ones I did on DK and Brad.


Marketing 101 for a lot of views: Talk about what's Popular.  If DK was named JowGa you wouldn't get a lot of views ha ha ha..

The WWE is a good comparison.  I remember the heated debates about real fighting vs fake fighting going as a kid.  WWE had all of the same elements that MMA has but with drama lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 2, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> He would have destroyed him! Lol Brad even told me before the fight he didn't want to hurt the guy.


Bradley got that check. Xu Xiaodong will get that check too lol.  I don't think he has any beef with DK Yoo.  It's not the same frustration that he ask with Kung Fu Master lol. But I think he would take the money provided China will allow him to keep it ha ha ha.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 2, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> Think of it this way. Current professional champion boxers will not listen to a word I say. Yet trainers with little real experience can step in front of those same world class fighters and they will jump on broad their training program. This is the reality of the human condition. DK and Brad saw an opportunity and people are willing to believe fairy tales. It is just like the WWE, there are people who believe it is real. For people like you and I we understand what DK is doing. Interesting is the fact my largest watched videos are the ones I did on DK and Brad. You and I know this is all just entertainment but there those that view it differently.



Yeah it is similar to the diet industry. The money spent on shakes and potions are disproportionate to the effectiveness of eating less.


----------



## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Jan 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah it is similar to the diet industry. The money spent on shakes and potions are disproportionate to the effectiveness of eating less.


Exactly!!!


----------



## angelariz (Jan 14, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> So I always like to see people put their "money where their mouth is."  In other words don't just talk big and look big.  Show everyone that you are willing to put something on the line.  Like they say "Put up or Shut up."
> 
> So  on that note.  DK Yoo has done just that.  For those who don't know DK Yoo.  Watch this video.  The guys is fast.  Looks like he has a lot of skills.  He's taught big seminars all over the world and knows 15 Martial Arts According to the video.
> 
> ...


DK Yoo is a hype train. He learned how to sell hype. Just like a lot of teachers. 
I was not impressed before but I was impressed with seeing him get in a ring and jam. It takes iron balls to fight in a ring.


----------



## Martial D (Jan 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> find a good Kung Fu fighter and go against him.


That's the trick isn't it?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> That's the trick isn't it?



It's not that hard.  Do you want the name of an MMA Kung Fu master?  I'll hook you up, but please, don't use my name when approaching them.


----------



## Martial D (Jan 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's not that hard.  Do you want the name of an MMA Kung Fu master?  I'll hook you up, but please, don't use my name when approaching them.


Sure, and I'll throw you the name of an MMA fighter that makes a wicked cup of coffee.

Sometimes people can be good at two mostly unrelated things.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Sure, and I'll throw you the name of an MMA fighter that makes a wicked cup of coffee.
> 
> Sometimes people can be good at two mostly unrelated things.


Somewhere back somewhere, I turned into Lam Sai Wing, butchering skills and all.  

The truth is if you want to fight with kung fu, it's just a matter of pressure and time.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Sometimes people can be good at two mostly unrelated things.


ha ha ha.. I read this as the two most unrelated things was Kung Fu and Fighting.  This place is getting a little too quick for me.


----------



## Martial D (Jan 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Somewhere back somewhere, I turned into Lam Sai Wing, butchering skills and all.
> 
> The truth is if you want to fight with kung fu, it's just a matter of pressure and time.


I used to believe that. I spent many years trying to 'fix' my wing chun. After as many years training in MMA ..there's not really much left of it that's recognizable.

I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting, not even the Sanda guys. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if they are out there they are very well hidden.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> I used to believe that. I spent many years trying to 'fix' my wing chun. After as many years training in MMA ..there's not really much left of it that's recognizable.
> 
> I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting, not even the Sanda guys. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if they are out there they are very well hidden.


Or too old to compete.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> I used to believe that. I spent many years trying to 'fix' my wing chun. After as many years training in MMA ..there's not really much left of it that's recognizable.
> 
> I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting, not even the Sanda guys. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if they are out there they are very well hidden.


There's your problem in a nutshell.

What "looks like CMA"?  This does.  Let's keep working on your Wing Chun.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> I used to believe that. I spent many years trying to 'fix' my wing chun. After as many years training in MMA ..there's not really much left of it that's recognizable.
> 
> I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting, not even the Sanda guys. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if they are out there they are very well hidden.



The honest truth is that we probably have seen so many kung fu movies that many people don't really know what kung fu looks like.  This guy has been functional for years. Even before I became functional with Jow Ga.  The down side for both of us was probably the same.  We had to learn a lot of it by doing it and making mistakes in order to understand how it works.  His videos didn't always look this clean.  You can see his learning path by comparing his earlier videos.  





Most Kung Fu classes aren't taught like this.  You only get this type of teaching from someone who has experience using it.  Each teacher that follows this path will have a student that will travel a shorter path to learning how it works.





Most kung fu schools teach like this.  Then you have to go get your bruises and figure out the timing yourself. Speaking from experience you'll get this lesson and then you you spend the next 2 or 3 months getting hit in the face trying to figure it out. By the 4th month the answer will come to you, while you are sitting down and not thinking about fighting,   After that the learning speeds up.  





It looks impressive and deadly only because you know what punch is coming (opponent isn't trying to deceive you)  it's not lively (opponent isn't actively moving around).  It doesn't show the important stuff like how to set it up. how to bait, or how to use it against other fighters.  So for most people it's going to  "long path learning with lots of mistakes."  If you can find someone that already knows, then they can share that knowledge with you and you'll have a shorter path to understanding.  You'll still have to get bruises, you just won't get as many, and you don't have to  go through as many trial and error mistakes.

If I could be my own teacher,   I would teach myself at the age of 13 or 15 with what I know now.  It would have been major jump start with my journey in kung fu.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting,


In one challenge fight, I jumped in from 12 feet away with one punch on my opponent's face and ended that fight. There was nothing special about my punch. But my jump in footwork was 100% CMA. I also don't believe any non-CMA system that punches from a "stealing step".

- Left leg forward.
- Step in left foot and jump up.
- Land on right foot.
- Advance left foot behind the right foot as "stealing step" with upper body leaning toward my opponent (this gave me that extra reach and surprised my opponent).


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In one challenge fight, I jumped in from 12 feet away with one punch on my opponent's face and ended that fight. There was nothing special about my punch. But my jump in footwork was 100% CMA. I also don't believe any non-CMA system that punches from a "stealing step".
> 
> - Left leg forward.
> - Step in left foot and jump up.
> ...


We have that exact move in one of our forms.


----------



## Martial D (Jan 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The honest truth is that we probably have seen so many kung fu movies that many people don't really know what kung fu looks like.  This guy has been functional for years. Even before I became functional with Jow Ga.  The down side for both of us was probably the same.  We had to learn a lot of it by doing it and making mistakes in order to understand how it works.  His videos didn't always look this clean.  You can see his learning path by comparing his earlier videos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly my point. Functional stuff basically looks like kickboxing or wrestling. The traditional fluff quickly melts away in those circumstances. In the last video we have the one place you can see it...when the other guy is cooperating.

As for knowing what to look for...after almost thirty years of doing it I'm probably almost there


----------



## Martial D (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There's your problem in a nutshell.
> 
> What "looks like CMA"?  This does.  Let's keep working on your Wing Chun.
> 
> View attachment 27961


I began my WC training in 1994. I spent over a decade pressure testing it as it melted away into something functional. 

You may hold any beliefs you choose, but if they aren't based on evidence they can never be more than that.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 20, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> We have that exact move in one of our forms.


Does your system also train "Gong Li Quan" (a basic form from the Gong Li system)? That's a forward jump footwork that I like. I also like this backward jump footwork (from 1st road Mai Fu Quan) that I have used it in sparring many times. It looks like CMA, and it is CMA.






This circular footwork that you try to move toward your opponent's blind side door, and force your opponent to turn with you is also 100% CMA.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

Martial D said:


> I began my WC training in 1994. I spent over a decade pressure testing it as it melted away into something functional.
> 
> You may hold any beliefs you choose, but if they aren't based on evidence they can never be more than that.


The evidence clearly indicates people are capable of using Wing Chun in competition without modifying it, so the defense can rest on that one.

It _was _a different story in 1994 though.  They weren't being motivated enough.  Bruce Lee taught me that.

Like I said, that was your one problem, what you were expecting to see.  That goes with all expectations, which is why I stay away.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Does your system also train "Gong Li Quan" (a basic form from the Gong Li system)? That's a forward jump footwork that I like. I also like this backward jump footwork (from 1st road Mai Fu Quan) that I have used it in sparring many times. It looks like CMA, and it is CMA.
> 
> View attachment 27971
> 
> ...


We do not have that form in our system.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

Martial D said:


> The traditional fluff quickly melts away in those circumstances.


Well any fluff is going to melt away.  It's not a Traditional thing.  There's fluff in MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai and Wrestling.  How much fluff you are left with just depends on the skill level of your opponent.  If Fighter B greatly out skills his opponent, then there's going to be fluff.  If the skill level is the same then there won't be fluff.






If you get too full of yourself then fluff will get you knocked out.





People tend to think fluff is a TMA only issue.  People also forget that TMA competitions also includes how well practitioners perform or exciting their martial arts skills look.  If boxers and MMA fighters competed in the same performance competitions then they would probably look like this.







The other thing about TMA fluff is that not all of it is for fighting.  Some of it is for conditioning.  If I'm standing in a horse for 2 minutes in my kung fu form then it's not because "that's how I fight" It's because at that point in time, I'm conditioning my body and mind.

No one goes to this guy and gives him a hard time about his jump rope fluff.  No one says "Nah man, that isn't going to work in a fight."





And I'm not picking on you or anything. Just showing a different perspective. I'm also tired physically in mentally.  I've been working to hard.

There's just a lot of details on what is considered fluff. 

There are a couple of people who thought fighting in a low stance was fluff, until they went a few rounds against me.   I just don't think Martial Arts movies have done a good job in realistically presenting functional martial arts and as a result a lot of people try to use movies as a guide to how the technique is done.  Then they get wreck by basic stuff and wonder why their years of training and movie guidance didn't work lol.


----------



## Buka (Jan 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Boxing is a lot harder than people think it is.


I agree, it's WAY harder. It's usually trained at a closer sparring distance than most Martial Arts. Boxing teaches you to block with your face. What I mean by that is, if you box, you're going to get punched in the face....a lot.

But repeatedly getting hit to the body by a really good body puncher is worse than anything in Martial Arts, IMO. Yeah, yeah, I know, getting kicked to the body can cut you in half. But a good body puncher in boxing will make you want to run home to mama.

If you decide to compete in boxing, on any level, that's when you realize just how difficult the game is. And how helpful it is.

But the best part? If you go through all of that, it translates better to actual self defense.

To me, the best, most fun things to combine are boxing, grappling and contact Martial Arts. And a side advantage to that is, if you still get your ash whooped, you can more accurately report what the hell just happened.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 20, 2022)

Martial D said:


> The traditional fluff quickly melts away in those circumstances.


What's the different between boxing and CMA?

- For boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- For CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.

If you have no intention to establish a clinch, there is not much difference between boxing and CMA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Boxing is a lot harder than people think it is.


If you don't have to train kick, joint lock, throw, ground skill, and just concentrate on the punching art, your training can be 5 times more effective that those who has to train all 5 areas.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't have to train kick, joint lock, throw, ground skill, and just concentrate on the punching art, your training can be 5 times more effective that those who has to train all 5 areas.


Boxers are good but only within the limitations of the rules.

Many TMA artists are bad and not functional for the same reason.  They are only good within the limitations of the rules.

Some people on this forum are excellent with Point sparring.  While other's like me would suck at it.  For me, there's no way for me to be good in this.  But on the other hand. Being good within those rule sets may make you really bad in some other competitive areas.  

When I think boxing is good, I always go back and remind myself of the context in which boxing developed.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Many TMA artists are bad and not functional for the same reason.  They are only good within the limitations of the rules.



You're being too kind.   Forget rules, these are people who can barely move.. Most TMA "artists" are bad because they have no physical discipline, and believe taking classes solves that problem.

It does, and it doesn't.  Going to a class is a form of discipline but if you believe that's the same as becoming a fighting machine, of course not.  That actually requires you to become a fighting machine _by choice._

If you go to karate class every single night of the year, but come home and binge on beer and chips, you're not going to become a fighting machine.

DK Yoo is definitely not that person, either.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

No comment.  Just thought I would share.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're being too kind. Forget rules, these are people who can barely move.. Most TMA "artists" are bad because they have no physical discipline, and believe taking classes solves that problem


That's a different story.  Those are the ones who are looking for a short cut or a quick belt to show what rank they are vs what skills they have. 

I don't factor people like that into the discussions.  I only speak of those who are actually giving their best and trying to be good with the system that they train regardless of focus.


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## Martial D (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The evidence clearly indicates people are capable of using Wing Chun in competition without modifying it, so the defense can rest on that one.
> 
> It _was _a different story in 1994 though.  They weren't being motivated enough.  Bruce Lee taught me that.
> 
> Like I said, that was your one problem, what you were expecting to see.  That goes with all expectations, which is why I stay away.


Show me your most convincing piece of evidence in this regard.  If it is clear, it shouldn't be difficult.


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## Martial D (Jan 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Boxers are good but only within the limitations of the rules.
> 
> Many TMA artists are bad and not functional for the same reason.  They are only good within the limitations of the rules.
> 
> ...


Boxing ... unmodified...is a cornerstone of MMA.  If no grappling is introduced, it translates directly into *** kickings, because it is trained in an alive setting and everything that doesn't work in such a setting has been long stripped away. 

The problem with traditional styles such as the bulk of CMA is it is trained and passed on with no such pressure testing, and as such remains chalked full of theories, concepts, movements and mechanics that completely fail when the opponent fights back, no matter how long you train them or how good you get at them.


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## Martial D (Jan 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the different between boxing and CMA?
> 
> - For boxing, a punch is just a punch.
> - For CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.
> ...


Range..timing.. footwork..mechanics..head and body movement..theory..angles..and most of all..one has been honed under a century or more of constant pressure testing, and one has not. 

But you're right. One has grabbing.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Show me your most convincing piece of evidence in this regard.  If it is clear, it shouldn't be difficult.


ha ha ha. which is why I never use the phrase "The evidence shows"


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

Martial D said:


> because it is trained in an alive setting and everything that doesn't work in such a setting has been long stripped away.


Rules of boxing has stripped more out of boxing than anything that would be classified as "doesn't work" Back fists used to be legal in boxing along with grappling.   There's tons of stuff that is effective that isn't used in boxing.



Martial D said:


> The problem with traditional styles such as the bulk of CMA is it is trained and passed on with no such pressure testing, and as such remains chalked full of theories, concepts, movements and mechanics that completely fail when the opponent fights back, no matter how long you train them or how good you get at them.


I don't like the term pressure testing because it creates the assumption that a technique doesn't work because it hasn't been tested.   If you don't know how to ride a bike, then you don't say, the bike doesn't work because it hasn't been pressure tested.  The issue isn't that the bike doesn't work.  The issue is that you don't know how to rid the bike.

So this is how I see TMA.  The issue isn't that the technique hasn't been tested.  It's been tested, which is why it's a technique in the system.  The issue is that the student doesn't know how to use it.  If you never use a technique in sparring then how are you going to use it in a real fight? TMA practitioners will often try to jump from drill to fighting, and that just isn't going work.  Sparring is fighting practice.  If I'm not using my techniques in sparring then I'm not practicing to use them in a fight. 

The theories, concepts, movements, and mechanics don't fail. It's the fighter that fails.  Perfect example, I can fight using the same techniques that people say don't work.  Why can I use them but other people cannot?  Is it because the technique, concepts, mechanics, and movement's fail?  If that was the case then I should fail as well, but I don't.  If I can use Jow Ga and someone else cannot, then it's the person that fails not the system.   

I don't think I've modified any of my Jow Ga in order to get it to work.  The stuff that works is stuff that I gained a better understanding of.  The stuff that doesn't work is usually due to my physical limitations or lack of understanding.  Then there's a very small percentage that I have no interest in trying to use.

If you watch my sparring videos a lot of what I nail people with are slow punches / kicks with me pulling power from, or redirecting.  Even when I was training to be competitive, I wasn't trying to knock my opponent's head off.  I was just happy I could relax for once without holding back the techniques.  This is why I'm happy about the new gym that opened up.  It has some heavy bags and I can start showing some of that power.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Show me your most convincing piece of evidence in this regard.  If it is clear, it shouldn't be difficult.


10 year challenge?  OK.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha. which is why I never use the phrase "The evidence shows"



You should start.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> don't like the term pressure testing because it creates the assumption that a technique doesn't work because it hasn't been tested. If you don't know how to ride a bike, then you don't say, the bike doesn't work because it hasn't been pressure tested. The issue isn't that the bike doesn't work. The issue is that you don't know how to rid the bike.



It's a numbers game. So if you go to bike riding school and one guy can't ride a bike. Then it's the guy. If everyone can't ride the bike. 

It's the bike.(or the school)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Rules of boxing has stripped more out of boxing than anything that would be classified as "doesn't work" Back fists used to be legal in boxing along with grappling.   There's tons of stuff that is effective that isn't used in boxing.


To use the forearm to hit on the back of your opponent's head and knock him out is a very effective skill. It's not used in boxing.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You should start.


ha ha ha.  If I ever do start, it won't be in here.  This place can be brutal.



Oily Dragon said:


> 10 year challenge?  OK.


I couldn't have said it better.


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## Martial D (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> 10 year challenge?  OK.


So your most convincing bit of evidence that "unmodified" wingchun works is...Joe Rogan talking and the success of two UFC fighters that have never had any training in wingchun.

Hah. K.


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## Cynik75 (Jan 21, 2022)

Martial D said:


> So your most convincing bit of evidence that "unmodified" wingchun works is...Joe Rogan talking and the success of two UFC fighters that have never had any training in wingchun.
> 
> Hah. K.


Not true. Silva is WC practitioner, but he was UFC champion long before he train started it - since he began his WC adventure he began to lose   Fergusson is known for very bizzare training methods: 




and the wooden dummy is one of them.

But there is Jones in video posted by Oily Dragon as en example of WC in MMA - because he kicks a lot of oblique kicks -what is overinterpretion cause he  has  neverbeen a chunner.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 21, 2022)

Martial D said:


> So your most convincing bit of evidence that "unmodified" wingchun works is...Joe Rogan talking and the success of two UFC fighters that have never had any training in wingchun.
> 
> Hah. K.


Are you challenging Joe Rogan's expertise?

Wing Chun throws elbows.  Did you even know that?

Dragon style, but with a taste of Crane, because both have wings.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 21, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> But there is Jones in video posted by Oily Dragon as en example of WC in MMA - because he kicks a lot of oblique kicks -what is overinterpretion cause he  has  neverbeen a chunner.


That doesn't matter, "never been a Chunner".  The moves hit all by themselves, the names don't matter.

Bruce Lee said that.


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## Martial D (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are you challenging Joe Rogan's expertise?
> 
> Wing Chun throws elbows.  Did you even know that?
> 
> Dragon style, but with a taste of Crane, because both have wings.


Ok. It's pretty obvious to me you are just here for a laugh. Carry on.


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Not true. Silva is WC practitioner, but he was UFC champion long before he train started it - since he began his WC adventure he began to lose   Fergusson is known for very bizzare training methods:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



MMA does wing chun better.


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That doesn't matter, "never been a Chunner".  The moves hit all by themselves, the names don't matter.
> 
> Bruce Lee said that.



So to learn good oblique kicks do you go to Jackson's gym or a Wing chun school?

That kick has always been a thai technique as well by the way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Dragon style, but with a taste of Crane, because both have wings.


Chinese dragon doesn't have wings.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Chinese dragon doesn't have wings.
> 
> View attachment 27978


Sometimes they do.  Little ones.  What flies without wings in nature?


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Chinese dragon doesn't have wings.
> 
> View attachment 27978


Red bull


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sometimes they do.  Little ones.  What flies without wings in nature?



Spiders


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sometimes they do.  Little ones.  What flies without wings in nature?


Some flying doesn't require wings.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sometimes they do.  Little ones.  What flies without wings in nature?


Dragons. Because magic.


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Dragons. Because magic.



Hydrogen and hollow bones.

That is also how they breath fire.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Hydrogen and hollow bones.


Seems like that would be pretty fragile... not a very draconic trait.


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## drop bear (Jan 21, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems like that would be pretty fragile... not a very draconic trait.



Like a bird, combined with a zeplin.

An allosaurus has hollow bones apparently.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Like a bird, combined with a zeplin.
> 
> An allosaurus has hollow bones apparently.


Since it's pure fantasy anyway, let's compromise. Hollow bones AND magic. Because they still don't have wings...


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## drop bear (Jan 23, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Since it's pure fantasy anyway, let's compromise. Hollow bones AND magic. Because they still don't have wings...



Neither does a zeppelin.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Neither does a zeppelin.


Dragons don't have propellers, either.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Dragons don't have propellers, either.


ha ha ha.. Burn..

You guys crack me up Dragons, wings, a zeppelin and now propellers.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Spiders


That's gliding.

Dragonflight is mystical, but it still has to conform to physics.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Dragons don't have propellers, either.


I beg to differ.   The elements of the Dragon are Water and Earth.  Even if you say the Dragon has no "wings" it still has flippers for both aerial and water diving.

Why not air element?  Because air's not in the Wu Xing.

Why?  Because air is _Qi_, tiny human.  Here endeth the lesson.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Ok. It's pretty obvious to me you are just here for a laugh. Carry on.


I'll take that answer as a hard "no".  You're not aware.

Are you aware the key elements of Dragon style are "rubbing elbows"?   400+ years of recorded history, dude.  Dragon style is all about the elbows/wings/flippers.

That's why it's associated with the other two Immortal's styles, Snake and Crane.  

The Crane has two, the Snake is one.  The Dragon is infinite, that's why you can never see it all at once.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Dragonflight is mystical, but it still has to conform to physics.


sort of defeats the purpose of being mystical lol


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## Buka (Jan 24, 2022)

No dragons? You never met my mother-in-law.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Buka said:


> No dragons? You never met my mother-in-law.


ha ha ha.. and on that note. Thread is completely derailed and reached the point of No return.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> sort of defeats the purpose of being mystical lol


Not at all. 

Mysticism doesn't mean fantasy.  It has spiritual and religious connotations.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. and on that note. Thread is completely derailed and reached the point of No return.


DK is himself a train wreck, so what did we expect?


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> DK is himself a train wreck, so what did we expect?


Well I didn't expect thing to go like this:

Me:  Lets talk about DK.
You:  Nah lets talk about Chinese dragons and their wings.
Wang: Chinese dragons don't have wing

Zeppelins, propellers, mysticism.... blah, blah, blah.  lol. That is so funny to me because we all know DK is trying to be relevant, but DK barely made 3 pages in this post and that says a lot a bout what most really think lol.  Not even worth the "digital ink".  

I dint' have enough foresight.  I should have just started with "Chinese dragons and their small wings.  That's why they can't fly straight." lol


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Well I didn't expect thing to go like this:
> 
> Me:  Lets talk about DK.
> You:  Nah lets talk about Chinese dragons and their wings.
> ...


Basically.

According to my notes: _"It (the dragon) is everywhere, but never seen in full by the Eyes of Men.

You must place emphasis on the ideas and theories of the mythology and not so much on the physical strength...attempts to imitate or recite the spirit of the Dragon will prove futile"._


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Basically.
> 
> According to my notes: _"It (the dragon) is everywhere, but never seen in full by the Eyes of Men.
> 
> You must place emphasis on the ideas and theories of the mythology and not so much on the physical strength...attempts to imitate or recite the spirit of the Dragon will prove futile"._


?  Way above my head


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ?  Way above my head


What do you know about storms?


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What do you know about storms?


Raiden before Mortal Kombat. lol


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Raiden before Mortal Kombat. lol


The Hell of the Oily Dragon is eternal.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 19, 2022)

DK Yoo did well. 

That was a huge size & skill difference...but more importantly, a huge experience deficit from DK. It's not easy to get in on someone with that much girth & strength.


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## Blackfoot (Feb 19, 2022)

b


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## Cynik75 (Feb 20, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> DK Yoo did well.
> 
> That was a huge size & skill difference...but more importantly, a huge experience deficit from DK. It's not easy to get in on someone with that much girth & strength.


For amateur fighter he did decent job. A lot of cheating and help from referee but still decent.
For somebody proclaiming to be master in 10 martial arts, to be next Bruce Lee etc. he did not well at all.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 21, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> For amateur fighter he did decent job. A lot of cheating and help from referee but still decent.
> For somebody proclaiming to be master in 10 martial arts, to be next Bruce Lee etc. he did not well at all.



To be fair, Bruce Lee was even less proven then DK.  DK took this fight at a much older age, out of his prime vs. a much bigger, stronger, younger and way more accomplished  fighter. Bruce Lee (in his prime) ran away from Wong Jack Man's challenge to a 2nd fight IN PUBLIC, to settle their dispute as to who won the 1st.


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