# @Guy B: Why Yiquan? ...or anything else in addition to your V.T.



## geezer (Jun 8, 2016)

_Guy_, on another thread the discussion veered of on a tangent regarding the old internal-external debate and you mentioned that you trained _Yiquan._ 

I know that in the past you have strongly posited how PB-WSL-VT is a very tightly knit, coherent and complete system. If that is a fair summary of your position (I do not want to put words in your mouth), I admit I was surprised and intrigued to learn that you also train another system ...as do many of the rest of us.

I'm genuinely curious. What do you find interesting, enjoyable, or useful in your _Yiquan _training? And does it expand and complement, or perhaps sometimes contradict elements of your WSL-VT? 

By the same token, I invite anyone else who studies a second or third art in addition to their VT/WC/WT to share in this discussion


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 8, 2016)

geezer said:


> By the same token, I invite anyone else who studies a second or third art in addition to their VT/WC/WT to share in this discussion


In today's class we worked on how to use WC Bong Shou to deal with opponent's sleeve hold and high lapel hold in Chinese wrestling. If you cross train more than 1 MA system, it can open your eyes. When I taught my "double spears" strategy, one of my students said in boxing, it's called clean up (or clear up) punch. Sometime the same idea shares in many different MA systems. It's always better to look at from many different angles than just to look at from one single angle.

If you spend enough time in Europe, you will realize that "socialism" may not be a bad idea. But if you just live in US all your life, you won't appreciate "socialism" until you have reached to your medicare age.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 8, 2016)

geezer said:


> _Guy_, on another thread the discussion veered of on a tangent regarding the old internal-external debate and you mentioned that you trained _Yiquan._
> 
> I know that in the past you have strongly posited how PB-WSL-VT is a very tightly knit, coherent and complete system. If that is a fair summary of your position (I do not want to put words in your mouth), I admit I was surprised and intrigued to learn that you also train another system ...as do many of the rest of us.
> 
> ...


good topic.  I'll just watch since I don't do any of those systems mentioned.


----------



## Nobody Important (Jun 9, 2016)

I think that the Wing Chun & Hung Gar I practice are good compliments. They have many shared concepts and techniques. With each method having it's own emphasis on certain aspects to make them different enough. Each have approaches to defense that I appreciate and can relate to on a physical and mental level.


----------



## guy b. (Jun 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> _Guy_, on another thread the discussion veered of on a tangent regarding the old internal-external debate and you mentioned that you trained _Yiquan._
> 
> I know that in the past you have strongly posited how PB-WSL-VT is a very tightly knit, coherent and complete system. If that is a fair summary of your position (I do not want to put words in your mouth), I admit I was surprised and intrigued to learn that you also train another system ...as do many of the rest of us.
> 
> ...



Yiquan is a very interesting and concise MA. I use it as a physical training method and I don't rate the martial system it contains all that highly- in fact I think it is quite bad. Good add on system though. 

Given my fruitless discussion about the purpose of Yiquan on the other thread, I am reluctant to discuss what it is for here. Maybe if you look back at some old threads regarding training the slow section of SNT, routinely dismissed as rubbish by almost everyone here, you will get an idea of what Yiquan does.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm not guy b. but I have trained  bit of Wing Chun, a bit of Yiquan, a lot of taijiquan and xingyiquan.

What I would think one would get from Yiquan is the same you get from stance training in Xingyiquan (Yiquan is related to and much comes from XIngyiquan) an understanding of body unity and how to get power from the root to the fist (in an art like Wing Chun).

I have thought for some time now (and even said it on a few occasions) SNT is one of the best Qigong training routines I know. If you understand how to get the power from your root to your fist (Wing Chun app to Yiquan training) you will have more powerful strikes.


----------



## guy b. (Jun 9, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> SNT is one of the best Qigong training routines I know



SNT is a very useful training. I don't know about qigong because I think all training is normal body training and wouldn't put anything into a special category. In Yiquan yes it is the post standing and related progression of exercises which I focus on.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> I invite anyone else who studies a second or third art in addition to their VT/WC/WT to share in this discussion


I have cross trained WC and Zimen. There are a lot of similarity between these 2 styles. They are both southern Chinese MA systems.

In

- WC, there is "chain punches".
- Zimen, there is "乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma) - pulling threads".

Both attacks the center lines with straight chain punches. In the Zimen "pulling threads" training, you think about to pull as many threads and as fast as you can from a fabric. Since you train not only how to punch out fast, you also train how to pull punch back fast. your chain punches speed training can be achieved to the maximum.


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jun 11, 2016)

What's yiquan? I can't make it out? Sorry


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2016)

kakkattekoi said:


> What's yiquan? I can't make it out? Sorry



Yiquan


----------



## kakkattekoi (Jun 11, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yiquan



Ooh! Thanks !! Surprise that Xing yi Quan is being taugh outside Asia


----------



## guy b. (Jun 11, 2016)

> Surprise that Xing yi Quan is being taugh outside Asia



Yiquan is not Xing Yi. It is derived from it, but is also fundamentally different, having cut a lot of the stuff that stands in the way of understanding the important bits


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2016)

kakkattekoi said:


> Ooh! Thanks !! Surprise that Xing yi Quan is being taugh outside Asia



As Guy B said Yiquan comes from XIngyiquan, it is not Xingyiquan. And Xingyiquan is taught outside of Asia, that is where I have trained it, with a few different people.

Had the opportunity to learn a bit in China once, several years ago, but the shifu scared the heck out of me and I chickened out


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 11, 2016)

geezer said:


> By the same token, I invite anyone else who studies a second or third art in addition to their VT/WC/WT to share in this discussion



Well you know from the other Forum I also study Inosanto Kali, though I am sure, as that is based on JKD principles, mine is modified not only by my Sifu/Guro but also via his Guro James Keating.

Now my perspective is likely different than others who also study more than one art.  I learn both WC and Kali from the same instructor, in tandem.  As such there are times when we slide techniques over.  Instead of checking a strike with the hand in Kali, we may use a _bong-sau_ Instead of doing a high _ tan-sau_ in WC to deflect a tight hook to the head we use a Kali cover.  Now this swapping is the exception and not the rule but when it happens it is obvious and makes simple sense, the two arts simply mesh very well.

That said in the beginning I saw Kali benefiting WC more than the other way around.  When starting WC the "same side/same side" concept was awkward for me as I am VERY programmed due to work to be bladed with my strong side (gun side) away from my opponent.  However doing Hubud, Sinawali etc made me much more comfortable with swapping between left and right as my "leading" side.  WC benefits my Kali as well, don't get me wrong, I just think the Kali helps WC more.

I also found it funny.  I found myself walking into the school because of the facts the Sifu teaches WC with real world combative in mind.  I know find myself actually appreciating Kali more.  Not because it teaches weapons and open hand together rather than introducing weapons later but the following.

1. It is very no nonsense and upfront
2. The concept of defang the snake.  Attacking the limbs either with overt attacks or aggressive defense can defeat an opponent faster.  Even open handed it can work.  You might not break the joint with strikes like you can with a stick or sever tendons like with a blade but striking the wrist and near elbow to deflect vs simply checking it, can make that limb numb and make that side more vulnerable for a time.
3. I have always felt the best way to learn to defend against weapons is to also know how to use them yourself.
4. It is openly brutal and to the point without even a hint of pretentiousness.  It is the art of a soldier.  That very much fits well with my mindset.


----------



## geezer (Jun 11, 2016)

_Juany_, that was a great post. As you know, I also practice FMA and WC. Interestingly, I used to feel that it was the WC helping my Escrima, rather than the other way around as in your case. This is probably because, at that point in time, I was a lot more experienced in WC.

Also the PMAS Escrima I first learned favored a "power-side forward" stance (right lead for a right-handed person), apparently opposite from what your kali favors? Anyway, the DTE Eskrima I work with now is more ambidextrous, and more obviously bladed. So there are contradictions with WC. There is also considerable overlap too. All in all, I agree that they mesh well, and I have no trouble transitioning from one to the other.

In fact, I will be conducting an Escrima seminar in Austin next month with a WC School and one of the things I will be working on is how to seamlessly transition from Escrima to WC and back, using concepts and strategies common to both arts.

BTW, what you said about using a "cover" method instead of tan-da to deal with hooks is a great example. It works for me anyway!


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 11, 2016)

geezer said:


> _Juany_, that was a great post. As you know, I also practice FMA and WC. Interestingly, I used to feel that it was the WC helping my Escrima, rather than the other way around as in your case. This is probably because, at that point in time, I was a lot more experienced in WC.
> 
> Also the PMAS Escrima I first learned favored a "power-side forward" stance (right lead for a right-handed person), apparently opposite from what your kali favors? Anyway, the DTE Eskrima I work with now is more ambidextrous, and more obviously bladed. So there are contradictions with WC. There is also considerable overlap too. All in all, I agree that they mesh well, and I have no trouble transitioning from one to the other.
> 
> ...



Sorry if I created confusion with one point.  The only time we are "squared off" is when we are doing the Hubud or Sinawali flow drills. Obviously still using foot work but it pivots off your centerline.   When we are doing "fight" training we blade, with the "power side" forward for weapons, especially Espada y Daga, that only makes sense though, out your longest weapon between you and the opponent. Open hand it's more free flow, what the situation dictates, whether right or left side neutral or right or left front.

The benefit of the drills, especially the Hubud, was that it made me far more comfortable swapping lead sides as needed.  That was a struggle for me lol.

I will also note I have some WC influence in the open hand.  Straight punches are definitely thrown with centerline theory in mind.

Thanks for the compliment btw. . Also wishing I lived in Texas atm.  That sounds like a dang interesting seminar.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 11, 2016)

geezer said:


> I used to feel that it was the WC helping my Escrima, rather than the other way around...


That's how I feel too. WC helps me to understand that in my long fist system, I did not protect my center well enough. I once created a WC and long fist mix form. I added Tang, Bong, and Fu into my long fist system. I also added in a lot of "Tan Da" into that form.

One time I visited the "5 Tigers Club" in NYC ran by my senior long fist brother Nelson Zhou. One of his students had heard that I cross trained WC. He wanted to experience how a WC guy would fight. He asked me if I could use WC only to spar with him. I sparred with him with 100% pure WC. My WC memory was still fresh back then. Today, I won't know what 100% pure WC may look like. Everything have been mixed up already.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 11, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's how I feel too. WC helps me to understand that in my long fist system, I did not protect my center well enough. I once created a WC and long fist mix form. I added Tang, Bong, and Fu into my long fist system. One time I visited the "5 Tigers Club" in NYC ran by my senior long fist brother Nelson Zhou. One of his students had heard that I cross trained WC. He wanted to experience how a WC guy would fight. He asked me if I could use WC only to spar with him. I sparred with him with only 100% WC.



The difference for me may be that my first exposure to WC occurred along side my first exposure to Kali.  It also may have to do with a bias my Sifu's likely has.  He is very skilled in WC, he even got permission from GM William Cheung to run the school the way he does (so we can test WC under that system) but he is a Mataw-Guro in Kali, that is where his true passion lies I believe, which is understandable.  We even do fund raisers for Filipino Typhoon relief and the like. 

Oh and let me clarify the use of the _bong_ in Kali. That is when checking a downward overhand strike in Kali, vs having your hand "catch" it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 12, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The difference for me may be that my first exposure to WC occurred along side my first exposure to Kali.  It also may have to do with a bias my Sifu's likely has.  He is very skilled in WC, he even got permission from GM William Cheung to run the school the way he does (so we can test WC under that system) but he is a Mataw-Guro in Kali, that is where his true passion lies I believe, which is understandable.  We even do fund raisers for Filipino Typhoon relief and the like.
> 
> Oh and let me clarify the use of the _bong_ in Kali. That is when checking a downward overhand strike in Kali, vs having your hand "catch" it.


The 1st time that I met with Jeffery Law and Alice Law brothers (both are YM's students), I sparred with Alice Law. One punch that I threw toward his chest, he used Tang Shou to block it. I felt my punching power gradually disappeared through the arm contact friction. It was a strange feeling that I never had before. That made me to have strong interest in the WC system.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 12, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 1st time that I met with Jeffery Law and Alice Law brothers (both are YM's students), I sparred with Alice Law. One punch that I threw toward his chest, he used Tang Shou to block it. I felt my punching power gradually disappeared through the arm contact friction. It was a strange feeling that I never had before. That made me to have strong interest in the WC system.



Oh don't get me wrong, I am damn glad that I am learning both.  Imo neither is objectively "better" than the other.  I am just closing in on being a middle-aged "warhorse" and after 25 years in either BDUs or Blue the general "character" of Kali is just more familiar to me (if that makes sense).


----------



## wckf92 (Jun 12, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I am just closing in on being a middle-aged "warhorse" and after 25 years in either BDUs or Blue



Thank you for your service Juany


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 12, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Thank you for your service Juany



Nah, thank you, but I need to thank society.  I originally studied to be a History Teacher.  I still love history but student teaching 25 years ago made me say... nope, not for me! However, while I wish we lived in a world that didn't need the career path I finally chose, I have been lucky enough to have found not just a career but a Calling that even today I love in a complicated way.  Complicated because I do love it but, when I retire, I will enjoy the rest lol.  Not everyone I know can say the same thing.


----------



## Juany118 (Jun 12, 2016)

geezer said:


> Also the PMAS Escrima I first learned favored a "power-side forward" stance (right lead for a right-handed person), apparently opposite from what your kali favors? Anyway, the DTE Eskrima I work with now is more ambidextrous, and more obviously bladed. So there are contradictions with WC. There is also considerable overlap too.


Oh I forgot on this one point. If you meant by contradiction no bladed stance we may have another difference that likely has to do with the styles of WC we each study.  My Sifu/Guro teaches using the GM William Cheung "Traditional Wing Chun" (gah love the art, hate the name, it causes so many freaking arguments). 

We have a number of stances, 2 of them bladed, a left and a right front stance.  You still have you structure based in the forward tilted pelvis of the "Ma" and it's not a "traditional" bladed stance, in that your lead foot isn't pointed at the opponent but otherwise you are bladed to your opponent.


----------



## WTchap (Jun 21, 2016)

geezer said:


> By the same token, I invite anyone else who studies a second or third art in addition to their VT/WC/WT to share in this discussion



For me, studying other systems (or simply getting some hands-on exposure) opens things up, giving you a different perspective about how things can work. 

When I first met a good Xingyi teacher, I was overwhelmed by the power he could generate, and when I first met a good Tai Chi teacher, I was pretty much humbled by how he could take my balance (and do so when talking, laughing and seemingly doing very little - even though I was trying _hard_ to control him).

I had an interest in BJJ, but didn't have time for regular lessons - so started to learn privately in one-to-one sessions, when I have the time. That was eye-opening, too.  Being choked-out is a _horrible_ feeling


----------



## mograph (Jun 21, 2016)

In my opinion, Yiquan is (at least) good conditioning for other martial arts.
But it's different from something like pushups, for example.


----------

