# Russian Martial Arts - Russian Dance?



## Roland (Aug 24, 2002)

Any one think there may be, or have any evidence that there is some conection?

Many other cultures have had their Martial ways hidden into their culture via dance or drama......
Just curious if that might apply here!


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## RMAX.tv (Aug 24, 2002)

See the video archiving the connection between Russian folk and Cossack dancing with the development and refinement of RMA, entitled "From Dance to Combat."  Filmed in Russia.

"This title speaks for itself. How to fight and defeat your opponent in different situations: in combat (hand-to-hand, against knife, gun, machine gun), in sport, on the street How to decipher and use natural movements taken from Russian folk and Cossack acrobatic dance for self-defense, health and training. You will see Russian folk combat dances as a cultural heritage of Russian ancestral wisdom. "Martial Art forms of different nations have their own code, in which they learn, improves, and at the same time hide and encipher. Of these codes and ciphers are dances, ceremonies, legends, fables, and drawings, which passed from generation to generation their own secrets of Russian Martial Art as part of the culture of Russian Nation."  General A. Retuinskih."

http://www.RMAX.tv/prdross2.html


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## GouRonin (Aug 25, 2002)

I asked Vlad one day and he said yes.


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## arnisador (Aug 25, 2002)

They say this about the FMA too, and capoeira. I'm sure it's occasionally true (e.g. capoeira) but as a rule I always suspect historical engineering is at work here.


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## Roland (Aug 29, 2002)

..but I did some Russian dancing when I was in Fiddler on the Roof and was curious.


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## Jay Bell (Aug 30, 2002)

From what little I've heard in talks, Russian folk dancing led to what was called the Cross System.


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## Roland (Aug 30, 2002)

Do you know what that is?
If so, more infor would be great.


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## Jay Bell (Aug 30, 2002)

Well...the body is comprimised of many 'crosses' (with my basic understanding).  If someone attacks low, the upper part of you strikes, high/low, right/left and so on.  Beyond that, it breaks into smaller crosses.  If someone kicks to your shin, the leg goes with it and the knee attacks.  That sort of thing.  Throughout the motions, the form is kept and it becomes a very powerful response.

Hope that helps a smidge..

Jay


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## Nicholas (Aug 30, 2002)

> the video archiving the connection between Russian folk and Cossack dancing with the development and refinement of RMA, entitled "From Dance to Combat." Filmed in Russia.



I have a copy of that... along with the other two tapes that make the supposed "trilogy". For a long time I thought the whole trilogy was a bad editing job to get my money for three tapes when it was really one. a few years after acquiring the trilogy (my friend qave me the three tapes, feeling they were of no worth to him), I happened upon a tape from Russia simply entitled P.O.C.C. (R.O.S.S.).  It seemed tome it was a singletape with all the same footage of the "trilogy".

When I first heard of the "trlogy, I was particularly excited y the thought of a tape detaling the link and evolution between Russian Dance and Martial art. I was quite disappointed atwhat I ended up with. the trilogy is a three tape set which has, strangely enough, much of the same footage on each tape. The supposed subject material amounting to 5-10 minutes per tape.

If I had't have gotten the tapes for free... I'd think it was the worst martial art investment I'd ever made.

All together the whole trilogy might have made a decent 30 minute video.

The sad thing is on the "dance" video therearemoments of brilliance. Some little guy demonstrates some amazing dance moves. Perhaps this is Buza, I don't know.

At any rate, I don't normally post on web boards, but I'd hate to see people pay lotsof money for that "dance" tape, and be screwed. I was so upset and disapoined when I saw it.



> "This title speaks for itself. How to fight and defeat your opponent in different situations: in combat (hand-to-hand, against knife, gun, machine gun), in sport, on the street How to decipher and use natural movements taken from Russian folk and Cossack acrobatic dance for self-defense, health and training. You will see Russian folk combat dances as a cultural heritage of Russian ancestral wisdom. "Martial Art forms of different nations have their own code, in which they learn, improves, and at the same time hide and encipher. Of these codes and ciphers are dances, ceremonies, legends, fables, and drawings, which passed from generation to generation their own secrets of Russian Martial Art as part of the culture of Russian Nation."  General A. Retuinskih."



In my opinion this is a VERY misleading statement. I have a hard time believing that any one who bought this tape agrees with that characterization.

The strange thing is, the same site that sells the tapes I've been discussing, also sells somevery goo instructional tapes. I don't undestand how anyone could honestly sell both. seriously, this has been on mind for long time. the above post just gave me oportunity to write in public, but i have always wondered.

Nicholas


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## RMAX.tv (Aug 30, 2002)

Nicolas,

For someone that doesn't normally post on boards, it's kind of you to come and post a seething review of the Russian Federation's documentary.  This is also strange considering you didn't even purchase the tapes.  It's interesting that you pose as "consumer protection" when you are one, not a consumer, and two, providing false information.

Your comment that there is a single tape of the trilogy in Russian language is completely false, unless it was a homemade copy compiling all three tapes.  These tapes are available for purchase from the Russian Federation's website which remains currently down (www.ROSS.ru).

Furthermore, the sum total of the footage created in Russia for the Russian Federation's trilogy derived from a Russian television documentary comprising at least 6 episodes of which I'm aware.  

Finally, Coach Alexander Medved, the "little guy", is a famous Cossack and Russian folk dancer from the Moscow Bolshoi theater.  He heads the department for the International and All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art for Dance for Combat and Physical Training.  He has performed for all levels, President to common whom has been recognized by President Putin, along side of Coach Alexander Retuinskih, Founder of ROSS.   I've had the honour of training with him many times.

In closing, you can tell your "friend" that if he was dissatisfied, he merely had to return the tapes.  No one has ever contacted our office regarding the "claims" you make here in anonymity.  We've NEVER had one complaint from our sincere customers, though we've had immense trouble from certain individuals with hidden agendas and personal problems here on the internet.  

If you have "questions or concerns" you may contact me personally at sonnon@RMAX.tv or 770-956-9765.  I'd be happy to meet you in person as my guest to here your greivances face to face.  

Coach Sonnon
RMAX Athletic Performance Enhancement Solutions
www.RMAX.tv

Roland, on another note, I also performed in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF (as well as choreographed the Pogrom) years ago.  Were you one of the Russian dancers?  Where did you perform?  Regardless, it's fun, is it not?


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## GouRonin (Aug 30, 2002)

Where did that come from? I wouldn't call that review _"seething"_ at all. The guy posted what his _opinion_ of the tape(s) was and openly stated that it was merely that. His opinion. No falsehood. Just his opinion. He went on to state that it was just this particular tape that he was unhappy with and that other tapes available from the same place were quite good. In fact he was quite open about how he aquired it as well. He goes on to say that he recognizes the _"little guy"_ as being brilliant and to say that other tapes he has seen were a-ok.

I am going to guess that the tapes are something you sell from your orgaization and I can see you not being happy with this review of a particular tape but each poster on this website must have a valid e-mail address to post and as well there is a private message funtion. Hardly anonimity. He posted his unhappiness with a certain video. I myself have purchased many videos over the years and been unhappy with some. I can't say as I have ever been so disgusted with what I had got that I demanded a refund though. I imagine that's because I like to be careful with what I buy. I have picked up free stuff from time to time though and said to myself, _"Wow! I'm glad I didn't pay for that."_ Mostly because it didn't contain anything useful to me, which is no to say that someone else might not find it useful, or that it was of poor quality both in tape itself and material.

Retailers have to realize that their product might not be everything they feel it might be for *all* people. Such is life. I wouldn't label those people who are happy with everything _"sincere"_ and those who might not have been, _"troublemakers."_ Perhaps a more constructive thing to do would be to ask him what about the tape he did not like and see if others might feel the same way. Then re-work the tape if possible to a format that might be easier to understand. Take this as a learning opportunity. When people complain, which I do not think Nicholas is doing, they usually have a reason for it. It might be valuable to find out what your consumer base is thinking.

While it does sound nice that you would be willing to meet this guy to talk about the video and hopefully provide him with some more info on, it the undertone of what you have said implies something else, at least it did for me, and I can't see him taking you up on that offer. Which is too bad because it might have provided you and him and opportunity to learn something from each other.


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## arnisador (Aug 30, 2002)

Thanks for your review. Can you say which tapes you did like?


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## arnisador (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *each poster on this website must have a valid e-mail address to post and as well there is a private message funtion. *



I'd like to clarify something: While a valid e-mail address is required, it is invisible to users even if you e-mail them (unless they reply from that address or you list it in your profile). Also, Private Messages need not be ennabled. While administrators can access this information and the logged IP addresses, no one else can--and we don't do so unless there is a problem (like login difficulties). Your information is held confidential unless you choose to reveal it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## RMAX.tv (Aug 30, 2002)

Doug,

Thanks for your candor.

1.  As the moderator stated, this individual's information remains withheld = anonymity.  It is this individual's first post regarding anything on RMA, and has withheld his identity.

2.  This situation happens continually throughout the internet - anonymous posters come on with reviews claiming to protect the public from being "screwed."  Never have ANY of these anonymous posters ever had real names, and have never approached our company for any restitution, nor filed any complaints in real life, nor ever approached us in any form whatsoever.  They only "appear" as anonymous internet posters claiming sincerity.  It's a long, sad saga of hidden agendas, to which the poster Arthur alluded in the "ROSS vs. Systema" thread.

3.  The poster proved his deception by claiming a Russian tape call "POCC" (ROSS) existed compiling the trilogy, when it is available only as a trilogy in Russia as well.

4.  Although he is not even a customer receiving the tapes from a "friend," my company offers him a refund for his lack of satisfaction.

5.  I offered to have him as a guest to answer any of his questions, in person or by email.  If he's a "real" person with sincere concerns, he would take advantage of this.  Who wouldn't?

Not much else can or would be offered from any company.

Regarding your ideas for repackaging the videos, we cannot.  We do not own the rights to these videos which are the property of the International and All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art.  All we were permitted to do is translate them into English language, which we did.

Regards,
Coach Sonnon
RMAX Athletic Performance Enhancement Solutions
www.RMAX.tv


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## GouRonin (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *Doug,
> Thanks for your candor.*



Hey, no problemo. I just thought that before this gets out of hand I'd just point out that perhaps it's not what it seems.



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *1.  As the moderator stated, this individual's information remains withheld = anonymity.  It is this individual's first post regarding anything on RMA, and has withheld his identity.
> *



That's true. He is kinda anonymous. But he might post more so you never know. This might have been a one off post but if we attack him he might never post again and we might lose him and his vew point. Sometimes on the net things come off as different than intended. If he merely offered his opinion and then get a sort of harder response he might just give up. We might lose a valuable viewpoint. Again, it might just be a mix up and I would like to fill this section up some so if we could find middle ground for both of you it would create open dialogue.



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *2.  This situation happens continually throughout the internet - anonymous posters come on with reviews claiming to protect the public from being "screwed."  Never have ANY of these anonymous posters ever had real names, and have never approached our company for any restitution, nor filed any complaints in real life, nor ever approached us in any form whatsoever.  They only "appear" as anonymous internet posters claiming sincerity.  It's a long, sad saga of hidden agendas, to which the poster Arthur alluded in the "ROSS vs. Systema" thread.
> *



I've been following ROSS for some time now, albeit by accident, and I have seen both the good and the bad on many websites and newsgroups. Personally I think all you need is a public relations manager but that's my 2 cents.  Sure there are groups of unhappy people but I am sure there are people that way everywhere. Such is life. Move on. However, having to deal with this continually I am sure makes one jaded and would probably be the reason for your reaction. I can see that.



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *3.  The poster proved his deception by claiming a Russian tape call "POCC" (ROSS) existed compiling the trilogy, when it is available only as a trilogy in Russia as well.*



Dunno anything about that. He said he got it second hand. That might be the reason. Who knows? Maybe we should talk about the content instead of how it arrived? Give us an explanation (as best you can because I know it's tough on the net) or a summary about what it is. Maybe that might explain it better as to what it's about?



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *4.  Although he is not even a customer receiving the tapes from a "friend," my company offers him a refund for his lack of satisfaction. *



I don't think you should do that. If his friend bought them then his friend should return them. For you to give him a refund is bad business in my opinion. His friend bought them and his friend is responsible for them. I think he is entitled to his opinion of the tapes but not entitled to compensation for his opinion.



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *5.  I offered to have him as a guest to answer any of his questions, in person or by email.  If he's a "real" person with sincere concerns, he would take advantage of this.  Who wouldn't?*



Hell, I'd take advantage of either if I really was interested. I thought it did sound sort of confrontational how you put it originally but this time the way you phrased it sounds better.



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *Not much else can or would be offered from any company.*



I agree. With the exception of the refund offered, which I think was too much, you have given him a chance that a lot of people won't have.



> _Originally posted by RMAX.tv _
> *Regarding your ideas for repackaging the videos, we cannot.  We do not own the rights to these videos which are the property of the International and All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art.  All we were permitted to do is translate them into English language, which we did.*



Damn, that sux. While they may be great for russian peoples maybe it's the differences in culture that cause the style or format of the flow of the video to be lost in the west. Ah well, what can you do eh?

I personally have been curious about your *"FISTICUFFS"* and your *"FLOW-STATE PERFORMANCE SPIRAL"* series due to my own interests in mass attack pugilism. To be honest however I wouldn't purchase them, not because I don't deem them unworthy but due to costs. I'm in Canada and I am having the same problems with a lot of USA videos due to the money exchange. I am very careful what videos I buy and only a few at a time. Needless to say you're on my list but it may take a while before I get to you! Ha ha ha! Heh, I also can only smuggle so many across the border when I visit my friend. (Yeah, I admit I'm screwing the Canadian gov't on taxes and duty but believe me, I can justify it so many ways that it isn't even an issue.  )

I also have some ideas regarding the *"SHOCK-ABILITY!"* series along with that as I believe them to be very closely aligned in useage. Again, another thing on my list to get.

Currently I am working with Vlad's video series and I am lucky that I can travel only a few hours to talk to him regarding them. Also he can explain, and physically show me what he means along with mentally.

I think that I just want to end by saying to both yourself and Nicholas, if he's reading, that any video is just a training tool. What you do with it afterwards is where the fun begins. I would suggest that Nicholas take this gift and if he only found the _"little guy"_ to of some use then take that and run with it. Expand on it. Work it. Think of videos as a beach, some have more treasures in the sand when you look, some don't, some require more looking, but they all have them.

Best to everyone!


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## Roland (Sep 2, 2002)

I like where those ideas are going.
Would like more info if you are able to post some!
Something to explore.


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## GouRonin (Sep 11, 2002)

I got some further clarification on the dance thing. Yes. The motions of systema are in russian dance. Are they there on purpose? Not really.

He broke the motion down into 3 groups. 1)sport 2)dance/play and 3)Work/purposeful action.

While you may use it as sport or dance the mentality is not as it is in work. Work being the highest application of systema. He stressed that they do not do dance or sport. Systema is there for work.

An athlete trains for his sport, a dancer trains for his dance. The motion might be similar but the intent is not there. A ballet dancer may have great leg control and may exhibit the same actions as someone in a kicking art per say but they are not training to be kicking.

The work aspect includes acceptance of death and life which are intertwined. I asked him how I might see the difference and he pointed out that during sport there is someone who can stop the action should problems arise. A coach, referee, opponent. In Dance, the dance can stop by the whim of the dancer. In combat these don't occur regularily as they are not part of the equation of fighting.

So you will see motions of systema in play, dance, or sport, but that is not what systema is.

I'm sure that I didn't say it here as well as Vlad said it but hopefully the point is there.


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## Roland (Sep 12, 2002)

Good information, nice to know.

I wonder about those may who have trained in two, or all three.
And what some of their experiences might be?


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## Pervaz (Sep 15, 2002)

Dance and MA have always been interwined together (with a hint of religon).  This could be to do the fact that many of the components are of a ritualistic fact.  Many of the MA have dance/movement in them e.g. Japanese theatre, Chinese, Indian dancing. 

Like Calpyso dance was sometimes a "secret" training methodology of passing on informaition without revelaing the whole source..

Dancing and MA have the same source e.g. movement, transmission of knowledge and then they move to other points - a kick in dance is to look athetiscally pleasing - a kick in MA is to hurt.


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## Rich_ (Sep 17, 2002)

There is a definite connection - training in St. Petersburg, we spent a day learning Cossack dance moves (a bit like doing a kata/form!) and then looking at how the moves have combat value. It was a great way to learn how to use your footwork to intimidate, control and off-balance an opponent independently of your upper body.

You don't dance like you fight any more than you fight like you dance - as in any culture, dance is an intimation of other physical skills, a mating display. And the fitness, grace and power that you need for good Russian dancing are reliable indicators that there are the base attributes there to back up any technical know-how you may have.


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