# Online martial arts courses



## rachel_grfn (Feb 2, 2018)

Hey there everyone! Just wanted to get your thoughts on something. What are your opinions on learning martial arts from an online course, as opposed to at a class or gym? How far can you get learning purely from online videos and so on? And can online courses be a useful supplement to in-person training? Are there any courses that you guys particularly like?


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## Hyoho (Feb 2, 2018)

Please take it from me. Just forget any ideas of some numpy who puts courses online. There is no substitute for a real teacher face to face.  That's what MA is. A personal hands on experience.

Once you are advanced you might be able to supplement your training by watching your teachers videos.

Without a doubt following this post  you "will" see a series of video links to try and show you otherwise. Please ignore them and get a teacher.


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## jobo (Feb 2, 2018)

rachel_grfn said:


> Hey there everyone! Just wanted to get your thoughts on something. What are your opinions on learning martial arts from an online course, as opposed to at a class or gym? How far can you get learning purely from online videos and so on? And can online courses be a useful supplement to in-person training? Are there any courses that you guys particularly like?


no just no, as bout as far as you can get learning to play table tennis on your own with just a vid if a match to learn off


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

rachel_grfn said:


> Hey there everyone! Just wanted to get your thoughts on something. What are your opinions on learning martial arts from an online course, as opposed to at a class or gym? How far can you get learning purely from online videos and so on? And can online courses be a useful supplement to in-person training? Are there any courses that you guys particularly like?


My view is that online courses are only really useful in two situations.

As a supplement (not replacement) to working with an instructor. This can either be the course serving as reference material , or for someone who can't get to an instructor on a regular basis (maybe once or twice a month with an instructor, supplemented by online material to work with in the interim).
For someone who has enough related experience to work from the online material. For instance, I have some background in Judo, and have a smattering of exposure to BJJ, plus my primary art's stand-up grappling (which uses similar principles to BJJ). I can pick up some useful technical information (and even new techniques) from BJJ videos and online material. Even with all that, I won't do as well as I would with an instructor. A pure beginner (or even someone with no significant related experience) is unlikely to progress well from the online material alone.
We could find exceptions, but they are generally exceptional cases.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 2, 2018)

Good answers above.  No matter the art, you will not be able to learn all the nuances of any art by videos only.  There are some that have a requirement to send in videos of your progress, or require that you attend actual classes.  In fact, we have a member here who teaches Hapkido that way.  I think he makes an honest attempt to serve students well.  But it is too easy to learn wrong moves, and too difficult to unlearn them imho.

Are there no MA schools that interest you where you live?

EDIT:  I meant to add that if the person who puts out the video isn't an accomplished videographer, or doesn't hire one, even more will not be shown clearly for a complete beginner to pick up things that are needed to properly execute forms and/or techniques.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2018)

rachel_grfn said:


> What are your opinions on learning martial arts from an online course,


It may work if the following conditions can be met.

- You have a training partner 24/7.
- You can send your video to your instructor and he can send comment back.
- You can ask him questions online and he will respond back to you.

Also it will work if you have 6 years solid foundation in any MA system.


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## Buka (Feb 2, 2018)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Rachel. 

The online thing is kind of like preparing for your drivers license test by playing on an Xbox instead of actually getting into a real automobile.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2018)

Buka said:


> The online thing is kind of like preparing for your drivers license test by playing on an Xbox instead of actually getting into a real automobile.


If you are already a race car driver, you should have no problem to learn a new driving skill online.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2018)

Contrary to popular belief, prior experience is not guaranteed to be beneficial in learning a new system, whether in person or online or other video format.  

It MIGHT be beneficial, but it might also be a hinderance, or simply irrelevant.  

It really does depend.

I agree with those above who advise you against trying to learn a martial system by video or online instruction, if that is the only or the primary mode of instruction.  It can be a useful SUPPLEMENT to good face-to-face training with a good instructor, but it could also get in the way.  Again, it depends.


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## Kababayan (Feb 2, 2018)

I think online courses are very valuable for experienced martial artists who are looking for additional knowledge.  As far as being a complete beginner, you won't get the benefits that consistent partner training provides (timing, reaction, etc).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I think online courses are very valuable for experienced martial artists who are looking for additional knowledge.


If you have MA experience, sometime you can even learn from just few words.

I have learned a technique from the following conversion, just words, no action.

A: How did you win that wrestling match?
B: I knee struck his leading leg, when he stepped back, I hooked his back leg.

Sometime information is like a piece of thin paper. It can block your vision for a long time. But it may take very little effort for someone to poke a hole through that thin paper for you.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have MA experience, sometime you can even learn from just few words.
> 
> I have learned a technique from the following conversion, just words, no action.
> 
> ...


I do not believe that anyone is stating that one cannot learn anything valuable from video.  Of course that is possible, and having a good background can enhance the possibility.

The issue is in learning a system from video, compounded by the fact that the learner is likely a beginner to the martial arts.  

To that, i say no, it’s a very bad idea.

If one is experienced, I still say no, it is still a bad idea.  The experience might just get in the way.  It depends.  

Video is a bad way to get the bulk of, or your primary instruction.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Contrary to popular belief, prior experience is not guaranteed to be beneficial in learning a new system, whether in person or online or other video format.
> 
> It MIGHT be beneficial, but it might also be a hinderance, or simply irrelevant.
> 
> ...


Agreed. If there's a different set of principles (especially if some of the same terms are used, with different meaning), that can make it harder to learn when starting from a base of experience - perhaps more so when trying to learn solely from online content (where the instructor can't correct misapplied principles).

Where principles are similar enough, the experience can be helpful in making something out of the online content. Note that "something" might be different from what was intended by the instructor, because of the interpretation through past experience.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Video is a bad way to get the bulk of, or your primary instruction.


This is probably the most concise way to say what I'm saying.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> The issue is in learning a system from video, ...


You won't learn a complete MA system online. But you can pick up simple information.

Here is another example. If you always think about "block and punch", one day you see someone does "arm wrap and punch", it may expand your MA understanding into another level.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You won't learn a complete MA system online. But you can pick up simple information.
> 
> Here is another example. If you always think about "block and punch", one day you see someone does "arm wrap and punch", it may expand your MA understanding into another level.


For me, the mechanics in this video are far enough from what I know that I can get good questions from it, but I can't learn anything from just the video. Even if the video had some instruction, I doubt that would be sufficient. I would be that person FC was talking about in a prior post, where my experience actually makes it a bit harder to absorb this material.


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## Kababayan (Feb 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You won't learn a complete MA system online. But you can pick up simple information.
> 
> Here is another example. If you always think about "block and punch", one day you see someone does "arm wrap and punch", it may expand your MA understanding into another level.



For me, I think the second video is a perfect example of a learning tool for someone with experience.  The experienced martial artist doesn't need a tutorial about how to do a proper palm strike or where to put pressure on an elbow wrap, so the video works great.  However, the first video would be an example of something that I'd like to train with an experienced teacher.  I would want to get specifics on the hip movement, the whipping motion, extension, timing of the upper body/lower body, weight distribution during strike, etc. The first video, to me, represents the beauty of the art, whereas the second is the practical application.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> where my experience actually makes it a bit harder to absorb this material.


If a MA system is too foreign for someone, online information can be hard to pick up.

The power generation can be as simple as compress and release. One needs to understand which part of the move is used for compressing, and which part of the move is used for releasing.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You won't learn a complete MA system online. But you can pick up simple information.
> 
> Here is another example. If you always think about "block and punch", one day you see someone does "arm wrap and punch", it may expand your MA understanding into another level.


Again, I do not believe anyone is stating that it is impossible to learn some things, including ideas on application, from video.

However, the real question in this and other similar threads is: I am a newbie to the martial arts and I am thinking of trying to learn XYZ martial art, as completely as possible, through the medium of video or online instruction.  Is this a good idea?

The answer is a resounding NO.

Mixing the two issues, wanting to interject the possibility of an experienced person learning “some things” (but not a complete system) by video, confuses the issue and does a disservice to the OP and any other inexperienced people who may be reading the thread.

I’m going to ask that people control their urge to do so.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a MA system is too foreign for someone, online information can be hard to pick up.


This is what I find out too.  The more that someone already knows about a MA system the more useful the video becomes.  Learning from a video without a foundation would make it really difficult.  The more complex a technique is the more difficult it will be and in some cases it will be impossible without guidance.   

The biggest problem with learning through video is that the student will almost never get any feedback from the instructor of that video.  It's that teacher feedback to the student that is critical.


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## Martial D (Feb 2, 2018)

It's amazing how often this topic comes up. There are already some great answers here, all I can really add is to beware of bad habits. If you try to learn a skill online you will likely miss some nuances that an instructor would prevent. Unlearning a bad habit is actually much harder than learning ''blank slate", so online courses could actually hinder your progress in the long run.

I would only use videos as a training tool if I already understood all of the concepts at play.


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## JR 137 (Feb 2, 2018)

If you’re learning strictly online, do you have a partner to work with?  Let’s say we keep it relatively simple and go the boxing route.  There’s only a few punches involved here.  I watch some Freddie Roach tutorial videos, buy a heavy bag and some gloves, and practice the punches how he teaches them.  I even pay attention to the footwork and move just like he taught.  I make sure I go in a certain way, punch a certain way, and get out a certain way.  I get really, really good at working a bag.  I hit hard, I cover up well, and I move in and out great.

Now... does that mean I stand a chance in the ring?  Nope.  Why? No one’s ever thrown a punch at me.  I have no idea how to react when it doesn’t go my way.  I have no idea how to take a hit and keep going.  I have no idea how to counter.  I have no idea how to counter their counter.  All I know is how to look good when everything’s going as planned.

Fighting is all about improvising.  It never really goes as planned.  You have to take the openings you’re given, you have to create openings, and you have to minimize your openings.  Once an opponent has you somewhat figured out, you have to change it up.

Watching all the videos in the world won’t give you any of that in a realistic sense.  Having a partner helps, but you still need that set of trained eyes that’s able to see and recognize the mistakes you don’t see and don’t know how to correct.  And on top of that, let’s say you get a partner or two learning with you.  You might get decent at defending against them.  At a dojo, you get a lot more sparring partners.  More partners means more different ways of attacking and defending.

Doing solo basketball drills won’t make you a good basketball player in an organized game.  How good of a soccer player can you be if all you’ve ever done is dribble around cones and shoot on an open net?  Same for any other sport.   Playing one on one won’t help much either.  They may help, but not very much.  Those things are supplemental things you do to get better, not the actual training itself.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 3, 2018)

I just want to put in here that you can learn Martial Arts online, and people have in the past. One group in particular is the Martial Club on youtube. Their headman, Andy Le has had no formal training in any Martial Art as far as I'm aware, and has taught himself mainly from watching Martial Arts movies and youtube videos. While he is incredibly talented as a Martial Artist, he is a performer, not a fighter. 

This is fine and for the way he uses Martial Arts, learning from online resources is fine. However, if he got into an actual fight against someone with formal training, I doubt he would last very long.


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## JR 137 (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I just want to put in here that you can learn Martial Arts online, and people have in the past. One group in particular is the Martial Club on youtube. Their headman, Andy Le has had no formal training in any Martial Art as far as I'm aware, and has taught himself mainly from watching Martial Arts movies and youtube videos. While he is incredibly talented as a Martial Artist, he is a performer, not a fighter.
> 
> This is fine and for the way he uses Martial Arts, learning from online resources is fine. However, if he got into an actual fight against someone with formal training, I doubt he would last very long.


You can learn practically anything online, through videos, reading, etc.  That doesn’t mean what you learned will be good, nor does it mean you’ll be any good at it.  Mimicking something you saw is one thing; actually using it and adapting to whatever situations necessary are another.  Form vs function.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 3, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> You can learn practically anything online, through videos, reading, etc.  That doesn’t mean what you learned will be good, nor does it mean you’ll be any good at it.  Mimicking something you saw is one thing; actually using it and adapting to whatever situations necessary are another.  Form vs function.



Agreed. My point is that as long as you don't plan on actually using your Martial Arts for fighting, there is no problem to learning online, as long as you have the determination to do it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I just want to put in here that you can learn Martial Arts online, and people have in the past. One group in particular is the Martial Club on youtube. Their headman, Andy Le has had no formal training in any Martial Art as far as I'm aware, and has taught himself mainly from watching Martial Arts movies and youtube videos. While he is incredibly talented as a Martial Artist, he is a performer, not a fighter.
> 
> This is fine and for the way he uses Martial Arts, learning from online resources is fine. However, if he got into an actual fight against someone with formal training, I doubt he would last very long.


This is one of the exceptions I noted in my earlier post. We have to be careful that we don't look at him as an example that "people" can learn MA from the internet. I'm athletic, have natural balance and coordination, but I'm pretty sure I would have sucked at learning via distance/online.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 3, 2018)

this subject comes up enough that i think i will make on line courses.


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## Headhunter (Feb 3, 2018)

At the end of the day if people want to do them that's fine there's no harm in it as long as you know it's not as good as real training and you're not as great as you can be


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is one of the exceptions I noted in my earlier post. We have to be careful that we don't look at him as an example that "people" can learn MA from the internet. I'm athletic, have natural balance and coordination, but I'm pretty sure I would have sucked at learning via distance/online.



Oh yes, Andy Le and Brian Le are very much a special case, but it does show that it is possible. There are also rare examples of sports fighters who have had no formal training but have found success in the professional circuit. Uriah Hall apparently taught himself by copying moves from the "Tekken" games, and had no formal training at the start. I'm sure there are other examples of self-taught fighters too.

Just for the lols. Brian Le being a beast: 



   How he was able to get that hench and still stay super flexible is beyond me. He is definitely a special case when it comes to Martial Arts.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Oh yes, Andy Le and Brian Le are very much a special case, but it does show that it is possible. There are also rare examples of sports fighters who have had no formal training but have found success in the professional circuit. Uriah Hall apparently taught himself by copying moves from the "Tekken" games, and had no formal training at the start. I'm sure there are other examples of self-taught fighters too.
> 
> Just for the lols. Brian Le being a beast:
> 
> ...


I actually believe that they are NOT special cases.  It is not very difficult to watch a video and mimic what you see there.

However, that is not learning martial arts, it is definitely not learning a particular system of martial arts, and it gives a very superficial understanding at best.

Mimicry is not learning nor understanding.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually believe that they are NOT special cases.  It is not very difficult to watch a video and mimic what you see there.
> 
> However, that is not learning martial arts, it is definitely not learning a particular system of martial arts, and it gives a very superficial understanding at best.
> 
> Mimicry is not learning nor understanding.



Yes but rarely is it done so well. The stuff they put out is (in my opinion) on par with professional movie performers. You do need some level of understanding in order to do it, just not as much as you would for actual combat. It's like how some actors never had any formal training. Jim Carrey never went to acting school and yet is one of the best Hollywood actors around.  

Question: Do you need to have studied a Martial Arts system and had formal training to qualify as a Martial Artist?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Yes but rarely is it done so well. The stuff they put out is (in my opinion) on par with professional movie performers. You do need some level of understanding in order to do it, just not as much as you would for actual combat. It's like how some actors never had any formal training. Jim Carrey never went to acting school and yet is one of the best Hollywood actors around.
> 
> Question: Do you need to have studied a Martial Arts system and had formal training to qualify as a Martial Artist?


The guy is athletic and has some slick moves, that is true.

I don’t know how you define “martial artist”.  I do know that you do not need extensive training in martial arts to be an effective fighter or brawler.  Athleticism and strength and raw aggression can take you far.  Hell, just raw aggression alone can take you far.

However, let’s not forget the original question in the OP which was about learning a martial art via video.  So, regardless of how you might define martial artist, in my opinion video is a bad way to learn any particular martial art, which implies a systematic approach to training and curriculum, built upon a foundation of principles and strategies.  It is definitely possible to learn by video the pattern and sequence of every kata taught in shotokan, for example, but I hold that it is just mimicry and any real understanding and skill is very shallow.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> The guy is athletic and has some slick moves, that is true.
> 
> I don’t know how you define “martial artist”.  I do know that you do not need extensive training in martial arts to be an effective fighter or brawler.  Athleticism and strength and raw aggression can take you far.  Hell, just raw aggression alone can take you far.
> 
> However, let’s not forget the original question in the OP which was about learning a martial art via video.  So, regardless of how you might define martial artist, in my opinion video is a bad way to learn any particular martial art, which implies a systematic approach to training and curriculum, built upon a foundation of principles and strategies.  It is definitely possible to learn by video the pattern and sequence of every kata taught in shotokan, for example, but I hold that it is just mimicry and any real understanding and skill is very shallow.



I haven't quite figured out what I define a Martial Artist as. It's certainly not limited to fighters, but at the same time there comes a point where what you are doing is too far away from what I would say is Martial Arts. For example, I wouldn't call Boxercise a Martial Art, but where exactly do we draw the line on what is and isn't a Martial Art. 

Anyway, I'm sidetracking a bit now. Looking at the OP's question, they didn't say what their goal was besides learning a Martial Art. If their goal is the practical application of a style in either self-defence or sport fighting, I think we can all agree that online training just won't work. However, if their goal is to learn the culture, get fit or go into Martial Arts performing, online training can work under the right circumstances.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I haven't quite figured out what I define a Martial Artist as. It's certainly not limited to fighters, but at the same time there comes a point where what you are doing is too far away from what I would say is Martial Arts. For example, I wouldn't call Boxercise a Martial Art, but where exactly do we draw the line on what is and isn't a Martial Art.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sidetracking a bit now. Looking at the OP's question, they didn't say what their goal was besides learning a Martial Art. If their goal is the practical application of a style in either self-defence or sport fighting, I think we can all agree that online training just won't work. However, if their goal is to learn the culture, get fit or go into Martial Arts performing, online training can work under the right circumstances.


Personally, I think a lot depends on what the purpose and intent of the method and the practice is.  If the purpose is exercise, as is boxercise or Tae bo, and minimal to zero effort is made to guide the development of proper technique and combative strategies, then it is not a martial art and is something else (an exercise in these cases), based on and inspired by martial arts.  If the participant works up a sweat, that is good enough even though any attempt to use those techniques on an assailant would likely result in injury to the participant, due to improper biomechanics.

I include XMA and Chinese Modern Wushu in this category, as performance and non- combative competition methods.  Often with these methods the movements mimic authentic martial arts techniques, but there is no correction or instruction to make the techniques combatively viable.  They are designed to be aesthetically pleasing, and that is deemed good enough.

So in my opinion, someone who does Tae bo or boxercise or Modern Wushu or XMA is not a martial artist, if they do not also practice a viable combat-worthy method. If they do, even if they never encounter real combat or self defense, and even if their practice of the method is perhaps lazy and not rigorous enough to develop genuine skills, they are then a martial artist.  They are simply not very good martial artists.  But they are still martial artists because they practice a method that is ultimately meant to be combatively viable.

As to your last point, that is in line with my previous comments that yes, people can learn things from video.  I just do not believe they can learn an actual martial method or system to a level that advances beyond simple mimicry.  But people can learn “tricks” or ideas about application that they might translate into training that they have already received, for example.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2018)

I had offered MA online course before. Each month a set of video and text information will be given. The 1st month includes 5 video instructions. Student has to record their video and send back to me. I then comment through E-mail.

This is 1 of the 5 video that student will receive for their 1st month course.






These videos are what student sent to me for comment.











The following are the 1st month text material.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Combat Shuai-Chiao Warm Up*

*1.      Kick Leg Back*

Try to kick your leg backwards from the knee joint, so the heel of your foot will extend and touch your hip. The purpose of this kick is to develop a natural bending of the leg to escape a leg sweep or low round house kick.

*2.      Kick Leg Sideways*

Try to kick your leg up sideways toward the groin, so the bottom of your foot touches your outstretched hand. The purpose of this movement is to develop a natural bending of the leg inward to escape a leg sweep, front cut, outer hook ...etc.

*3.      Bow-Arrow Stance*

Turn you front foot 45 degree outward. Maintaining the back leg straight, your back foot turns 45 degrees inward. While keeping your body in a straight line, try to touch your shoulder to the opposite knee.   The purpose of this movement is to stretch your leg muscles, build up correct body structure, and to achieve maximum twist.

*Equipment Training*

*1.      Brick Training*

While holding the training bricks, repeat any of the martial arts movements in slow motion.  Always keep the elbows and knees bent slightly to avoid overextension.

*2.      Tree kicking*

1)      Find a tree about your leg size, or sink a PVC pipe in the ground.
2)      Move your back leg behind your front leg.
3)      Shift your weight to your back leg and use the ball of your front foot to kick on the tree.

This may be the most important training in the Chinese martial art. You will get the most reward for the investment of your training. Both of your offense and defense ability will heavily depend on this.

*3.      Pole Hanging*

1)      Find a round metal pole, for instance such as those used for some street signs, or sink a metal fence pole in the ground but allow it to be taller than your head.  The best pole for this exercise is actually a small pine tree with soft bark.
2)      Wrap your leg around the pole.
3)      Try to make the back of your knee wrap as close to the pole as possible.
4)      Wrap your arm around the pole in a head lock position.
5)      Hold the other hand on your wrist.
6)      Raise your standing foot off the ground, allowing your arm and leg to carry your body weight.

When you train this exercise, you start with 10 breath count (inhale and exhale). You then progress to 20, 30, 40, 50… Take your time and try to enjoy the training. After a period of time, work toward releasing the wrist holding arm, transferring the weight to the twisting leg.  The next step after being able to hang comfortably on one leg and one arm, try to hope on the pole rapidly.  The goal is to be able to reach the pole hanging position in an instant with a burst of energy rather than slowly positioning yourself.

*13 Posture training*

*1.      李奎磨斧* *(Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharpens the axe*

1)      Stand in a bow-arrow stance.
2)      Put both of your palms in front of your chest and facing up.
3)      Push both palms out with finger-tips touching and palms facing downward, and ending at 45 degrees.
4)      Turn the hands palm upward with Tiger Mouth (curved space between thumb and index finger) open; pull back both arms to touch your chest.

Repeat this exercise with training bricks held in both hands.

*2.      三平* *(San Ping) Three plains*

1)      With both feet in close stance and knees bent, lower your upper body until your upper legs is parallel to the ground.
2)      Extend arms forward also parallel to the ground, curving hands into hooks with five fingers in Plum Flower pattern and facing downward.

Repeat this exercise with training bricks held in each hand.  While holding the bricks, rotate your hands clock-wise and counter clock-wise.

*24 Solo drill Training*

*1.      踢Forward kick (TI)*

Both X and Y have right side forward (Uniform Stance).

1)      X moves left leg behind the right leg and uses the ball of the right foot to kick at Y’s right front knee.
2)      X lands right leg in front of Y’s right leg, and uses right back fist toward Y’s head to force Y to block.
3)      X uses left hand to control Y’s right elbow as Y is blocking. X then uses the right hand to control Y’s right wrist. At the same time, X steps in left leg 45 degree in front of Y’s right leg.
4)      X pulls Y’s right arm to force Y to put more weight on his leading leg, X then sweeps Y’s right ankle, using the front part of his left ankle with the foot pointing the same direction as Y’s right foot. When Y’s right foot is moved on the ground, X uses left hand to pull Y’s right shoulder to throw Y downward.

This is a combination of “Foot Landing Kick” and “Shoulder Pulling Kick”. The concept is to sweep your opponent’s foot when his weight shifts. If you can move his foot forward faster than the rest part of his body, his upper body will lean back. If you add a shoulder pull at that moment, you can throw him.

Key points

1)      Keep knee bending slightly before kick.
2)      Shoulder pulling should be done a bit later than the kick.
3)      Don’t let your kick to affect your upper body balance.

*2.      蹩Block (BIE) *

Both X and Y have right side forward (Uniform Stance).

1)      X moves left leg behind the right leg and use the ball of the right foot to kick at Y’s right front knee.
2)      X lands right leg in front of Y’s right leg, and moves both arms upward to separate Y’s arms from inside out.
3)      X uses left arm to wrap on Y’s right arm and grip the elbow, and uses right arm to hook punch behind Y’s head. X then uses right arm to lock Y’s neck while dropping into a low horse stance leaning body slightly forward.
4)      X moves the right leg outside of Y’s right leg and trapping that leg with his calf by raising the heel of the foot off the ground and keeps the right knee bending.
5)      X straights the right leg to spring Y’s right leg while twisting Y’s head downward in front of X’s chest.
6)      X sacrifices his own balance and uses gravity to pull Y and throw him. X then regains his balance.

Key Points

1)      Put your opponent’s head in front of your chest with your elbow pointing to the ground.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had offered MA online course before. Each month a set of video and text information will be given. The 1st month includes 5 video instructions. Student has to record their video and send back to me. I then comment through E-mail.
> 
> This is 1 of the 5 video that student will receive for their 1st month course.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this supports everything I’ve been saying.

The instructional video video is all of a half minute long and contains zero verbal instruction to describe power transfer, leverage, angles, etc.  it is just a couple of slow demonstrations, and I guess the student is left to figure it out for themselves based on crude video demonstration and zero actual instruction.

The quality of what i see in the student videos matches what I would expect from such an instructional video.  It just fails to transmit in any reasonable way.  This is, as I describe, superficial mimicry.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> The instructional video video is all of a half minute long and contains zero verbal instruction to describe power transfer, leverage, angles, etc.


The detail of the video is in the text. Also E-mail discussion between instructor and students can get into more detail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*1. 踢Forward kick (TI)*

Both X and Y have right side forward (Uniform Stance).

1) X moves left leg behind the right leg and uses the ball of the right foot to kick at Y’s right front knee.
2) X lands right leg in front of Y’s right leg, and uses right back fist toward Y’s head to force Y to block.
3) X uses left hand to control Y’s right elbow as Y is blocking. X then uses the right hand to control Y’s right wrist. At the same time, X steps in left leg 45 degree in front of Y’s right leg.
4) X pulls Y’s right arm to force Y to put more weight on his leading leg, X then sweeps Y’s right ankle, using the front part of his left ankle with the foot pointing the same direction as Y’s right foot. When Y’s right foot is moved on the ground, X uses left hand to pull Y’s right shoulder to throw Y downward.

This is a combination of “Foot Landing Kick” and “Shoulder Pulling Kick”. The concept is to sweep your opponent’s foot when his weight shifts. If you can move his foot forward faster than the rest part of his body, his upper body will lean back. If you add a shoulder pull at that moment, you can throw him.

Key points

1) Keep knee bending slightly before kick.
2) Shoulder pulling should be done a bit later than the kick.
3) Don’t let your kick to affect your upper body balance.

*2. 蹩Block (BIE) *

Both X and Y have right side forward (Uniform Stance).

1) X moves left leg behind the right leg and use the ball of the right foot to kick at Y’s right front knee.
2) X lands right leg in front of Y’s right leg, and moves both arms upward to separate Y’s arms from inside out.
3) X uses left arm to wrap on Y’s right arm and grip the elbow, and uses right arm to hook punch behind Y’s head. X then uses right arm to lock Y’s neck while dropping into a low horse stance leaning body slightly forward.
4) X moves the right leg outside of Y’s right leg and trapping that leg with his calf by raising the heel of the foot off the ground and keeps the right knee bending.
5) X straights the right leg to spring Y’s right leg while twisting Y’s head downward in front of X’s chest.
6) X sacrifices his own balance and uses gravity to pull Y and throw him. X then regains his balance.

Key Points

1) Put your opponent’s head in front of your chest with your elbow pointing to the ground.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> The quality of what i see in the student videos matches what I would expect from such an instructional video.  It just fails to transmit in any reasonable way.  This is, as I describe, superficial mimicry.


An online class student will never be the same as a student who graduated from MIT. There will be no argument there.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I just want to put in here that you can learn Martial Arts online, and people have in the past. One group in particular is the Martial Club on youtube. Their headman, Andy Le has had no formal training in any Martial Art as far as I'm aware, and has taught himself mainly from watching Martial Arts movies and youtube videos. While he is incredibly talented as a Martial Artist, he is a performer, not a fighter.
> 
> This is fine and for the way he uses Martial Arts, learning from online resources is fine. However, if he got into an actual fight against someone with formal training, I doubt he would last very long.



That sounds more like learning dance moves online than learning martial arts. To a greater or lesser degree, pretty much all martial arts training should improve your chances in a fight. That often is not the students main reason for training, but it happens anyway.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 3, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That sounds more like learning dance moves online than learning martial arts. To a greater or lesser degree, pretty much all martial arts training should improve your chances in a fight. That often is not the students main reason for training, but it happens anyway.



I guess I'll play devil's advocate here and say that by that logic any form of physical exercise could be considered a Martial Art, since a physically fit person has better chances of surviving a fight than someone who isn't fit.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I guess I'll play devil's advocate here and say that by that logic any form of physical exercise could be considered a Martial Art, since a physically fit person has better chances of surviving a fight than someone who isn't fit.


I guess I would still define it by the purpose of the activity.  Tetherball isn’t designed for combat, though if you play enough and become physically fit that can help you survive or escape from an assault.

Martial practice is designed to develop martial skills.  And it ought to help with physical fitness.

By the way, I include combat sports as martial arts, such as boxing and wrestling.  Even tho they are mostly designed for competition now, it is a competition of combat and their skills are directly transferable to surviving an attack.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I guess I'll play devil's advocate here and say that by that logic any form of physical exercise could be considered a Martial Art, since a physically fit person has better chances of surviving a fight than someone who isn't fit.



I disagree. I work with new students alllllllll the time who are 30-40 years younger than me and far fitter than me. Doesn't make them the least bit of a challenge. One example is a student I've mentioned before. He's 6' 6" tall (I am 6' 1") and played lineman for the local university. He's 35-ish years younger than me, WAY stronger and much fitter. When he started, taking him apart sparring was very easy. I can still beat him, but after 7 years of training (he was promoted to 1st Dan last November) it's a hell of a lot more difficult than it used to be, and I can guarantee I'm going to have a few bruises afterwards.
Outside the school, I am involved in physical confrontations far too often for my tastes. The vast majority of these confrontations involve someone significantly younger and fitter than me. Doesn't stop me from putting them down. And I'm a worn out, tired, old, one-eyed, fat man.
And no, that doesn't mean I think I'm some sort of world class fighting prodigy. I'm not. Any fantasies I had along those lines was beaten out of me by the time I was a teenager. It just means I've been doing this a long long time, and someone with little or no training is fairly easy to take down.
A martial art, by definition, is focused specifically (albeit to varying degrees depending on myriad factors) on skills that are useful in a fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually believe that they are NOT special cases.  It is not very difficult to watch a video and mimic what you see there.
> 
> However, that is not learning martial arts, it is definitely not learning a particular system of martial arts, and it gives a very superficial understanding at best.
> 
> Mimicry is not learning nor understanding.


Most folks, if mimicking a video without an experienced person guiding their movements, will fail to do a good job mimicking the video.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I guess I'll play devil's advocate here and say that by that logic any form of physical exercise could be considered a Martial Art, since a physically fit person has better chances of surviving a fight than someone who isn't fit.


He didn't say anything that enhances your chance of winning a fight is a MA. I would say fitness can be (probably should be) part of a martial artist's study, but it's not necessarily part of the martial art, itself.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks, if mimicking a video without an experienced person guiding their movements, will fail to do a good job mimicking the video.


That really is kind of the point.  It’s not hard to mimic and memorize the pattern of movement.  But it’s not a good job, it’s shallow and misses what it is all about.

I’ve done it.  When I showed my mimicked form to someone with some knowledge of it, he said yeah it’s right, but at the same time it’s all wrong.  It would also depend on the complexity of the material.  A less complex form vs. a more complex form, for example.

The attached video in reference, that is more acrobatics with a martial flavor.  Someone with an athletic talent and some acrobatics could do those without a lot of trouble.  Like the guy in the video.  He apparently has the acrobatic ability.


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## Ondrejmatej (Mar 23, 2018)

rachel_grfn said:


> Hey there everyone! Just wanted to get your thoughts on something. What are your opinions on learning martial arts from an online course, as opposed to at a class or gym? How far can you get learning purely from online videos and so on? And can online courses be a useful supplement to in-person training? Are there any courses that you guys particularly like?




Online course will teach you main things that you need to know when starting to learn Martial Arts.


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## pdg (Mar 23, 2018)

Ondrejmatej said:


> Online course will teach you main things that you need to know when starting to learn Martial Arts.



Depends how you classify 'need'.

They can assist a beginner with learning theory and etiquette.

That's about it really.

An online course can't tell you your stance is wrong, or that you're not leading into a kick or punch properly, or that doing it that way will blow your knee or tear your hip or strain your shoulder or break your wrist. An experienced instructor, in person, will (usually) spot that before you hurt yourself.

I've used online (and printed) resources to help refine stuff I already basically know, or for more complex things built on basic movement, but I'm not a (complete) beginner.


Now, not all courses are equally bad, and some people can watch a move and mimic it perfectly - but on the whole I think a beginner only using videos and stuff is asking for trouble and injury.


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2018)

I wonder if people on basketball, baseball, football, etc. forums get asked if people can learn how to play their respective sport online?  Do people go on boxing forums and ask if they can learn to box online?

I just can’t understand why anyone would be stupid enough to think they can actually learn how to do any complex physical activity, let alone an activity that involves someone trying to defend against you doing it to them, online and on their own.

Are people really so anti-social that they’d rather stare at a computer screen than actually interact with other people?  And they wonder why kids these days would rather be glued to a screen than be outside playing.

Find a damn teacher.  What’s the problem?  Too scary?  Too far away?  Too expensive?  Too hard?  Then do something else like Zumba videos online.  

Yeah, I’m in one of those moods today. My wife calls it negative.  I call it realistic.


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## Headhunter (Mar 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I wonder if people on basketball, baseball, football, etc. forums get asked if people can learn how to play their respective sport online?  Do people go on boxing forums and ask if they can learn to box online?
> 
> I just can’t understand why anyone would be stupid enough to think they can actually learn how to do any complex physical activity, let alone an activity that involves someone trying to defend against you doing it to them, online and on their own.
> 
> ...


I doubt it's anti social (though it could be due to things like depression or anxiety) cost is the most likely and frankly if all they can do is online stuff then fair enough at least they make the effort to try and learn and no of course they'll never be as good as if they train at a school but at least they're doing something


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I doubt it's anti social (though it could be due to things like depression or anxiety) cost is the most likely and frankly if all they can do is online stuff then fair enough at least they make the effort to try and learn and no of course they'll never be as good as if they train at a school but at least they're doing something



I can think of several reasons:

*Cost*
*Availability - *for example, if there are no martial arts schools near you, or else you want to train a specific art that isn't covered in your area.  Alternatively, if you don't like the schools that are available in the area, either because you don't trust the instructors or because of a bad experience there, you might not want to train there.
*Time* - If you work when the schools are open, especially if you have multiple jobs, then you might not be able to train at a martial arts school.  This also goes back up to cost.  If your schedule is so sporadic that you can only train once or twice a month at a school, why pay the entire monthly fee the school has?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I wonder if people on basketball, baseball, football, etc. forums get asked if people can learn how to play their respective sport online?


When I was a kid, I learned how to swim from a grade school magazine. I have swum all my life and I have never had any swimming teacher.


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I doubt it's anti social (though it could be due to things like depression or anxiety) cost is the most likely and frankly if all they can do is online stuff then fair enough at least they make the effort to try and learn and no of course they'll never be as good as if they train at a school but at least they're doing something





skribs said:


> I can think of several reasons:
> 
> *Cost*
> *Availability - *for example, if there are no martial arts schools near you, or else you want to train a specific art that isn't covered in your area.  Alternatively, if you don't like the schools that are available in the area, either because you don't trust the instructors or because of a bad experience there, you might not want to train there.
> *Time* - If you work when the schools are open, especially if you have multiple jobs, then you might not be able to train at a martial arts school.  This also goes back up to cost.  If your schedule is so sporadic that you can only train once or twice a month at a school, why pay the entire monthly fee the school has?


Then pick another hobby?  Just saying.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Then pick another hobby?  Just saying.



Why should someone NOT do a hobby they enjoy, just because they can't enjoy it in the way YOU want them to?


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why should someone NOT do a hobby they enjoy, just because they can't enjoy it in the way YOU want them to?




The way WE want them to enjoy it is safely, without injury to themselves or others which is unlikely, quite frankly, if you are trying to teach yourself. If you want to do something for enjoyment you should want to also do it properly, for example, the UK is an island and many people like messing around in boats, power and sailing, there's no licensing for them here so you can just buy/rent one then off you go bimbling around the coast. You can do courses teaching you how to handle boats, learn about tides, navigating etc but why bother? You can watch a video and away you go, all fine and dandy until things go pear shaped and the RNLI have to come to the rescue, hopefully anyway. 
Why not take the time to learn how to do your hobby whether martial arts, woodworking, sailing whatever, properly, be taught by experts and really enjoy it, knowing that you aren't causing problems for yourself or anyone else.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I was a kid, I learned how to swim from a grade school magazine. I have swum all my life and I have never had any swimming teacher.



In swimming pools/lakes or can you also swim in a riptide or other currants in the sea?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> In swimming pools/lakes or can you also swim in a riptide or other currants in the sea?


I have trained my *triathlon* for 0.9 mile swim in the ocean. My swimming speed could not meet the triathlon requirement. I'm sure I can swim faster if I do have a swimming instructor.

Of course it's better to have an instructor. But you can still learn something without one.


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## pdg (Mar 23, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> other currants in the sea?



Sorry, it simply _must_ be done


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why should someone NOT do a hobby they enjoy, just because they can't enjoy it in the way YOU want them to?


Everyone can do whatever they want.  If they want to do something halfassed and think they’re going to be good at it, more power to them.  They want to walk around and let people know about their online belt, rock on.  Just make sure you know how to fight before doing this, so if you hit a Bruce Lee pose when someone talks doo-doo, you still have a chance.  

I’m just some random guy on the internet.  I wouldn’t trust me either.

I’ve always wanted to learn how to pole vault.  I think I’ll learn it online.  No coaches close enough to me.  I don’t have enough money.  I don’t have enough time.  Someone was mean to me somewhere, so I’m not going to look for a coach who could also be mean to me.  I’m going to learn it online and practice in my back yard.  My goal is to clear the 8ft or so fence my neighbor has so if my kids ever hit their ball over there, I can get it back.

Sounds stupid, right?  Sounds like I could get hurt, right?  Wish me luck.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone can do whatever they want.  If they want to do something halfassed and think they’re going to be good at it, more power to them.  They want to walk around and let people know about their online belt, rock on.  Just make sure you know how to fight before doing this, so if you hit a Bruce Lee pose when someone talks doo-doo, you still have a chance.
> 
> I’m just some random guy on the internet.  I wouldn’t trust me either.
> 
> ...



You're making a lot of assumptions:

That learning to fight is the goal
That the person will take some online classes and then seek out a fight
That just because someone isn't learning the way you want them to learn, that they're half-assing it
Why couldn't you learn pole vaulting in your back yard?


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why couldn't you learn pole vaulting in your back yard?



Case in point...




And probably all of these people are obviously coached.


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> You're making a lot of assumptions:
> 
> That learning to fight is the goal
> That the person will take some online classes and then seek out a fight
> ...


I didn’t make those assumptions.  Not everyone’s looking to learn how to fight nor wants to fight.  But some people do.

If you’re not thoroughly learning something from a qualified person, what should you call it?  A solid education?


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## Tames D (Mar 23, 2018)

Good topic! It's about time this subject was brought up.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2018)

What you're doing is putting YOUR goals for martial arts and YOUR educational philosophy onto someone else.

Maybe they're not expecting to get a "solid education".  Maybe they're just enjoying a fun hobby.  Maybe they have the focus to learn the techniques properly online.  It's what I'm doing with 3-section staff.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> What you're doing is putting YOUR goals for martial arts and YOUR educational philosophy onto someone else.
> 
> Maybe they're not expecting to get a "solid education".  Maybe they're just enjoying a fun hobby.  Maybe they have the focus to learn the techniques properly online.  It's what I'm doing with 3-section staff.




And if what they are doing is learning bad technique which causes them back problems/hip problem etc etc.? would that still be fun? There is a certain type of arrogance involved when people think they can teach themselves something that others have spent years learning. It's not about 'focus', it's about learning something properly. Would you encourage young girls for example to learn how to go en pointe from a video just because they want to dance around their bedrooms and have fun? It's no different with martial arts.



pdg said:


> Sorry, it simply _must_ be done



Have you seen the programmes about the RNLI on BBC2 in the evenings? Staggeringly brave people looking after often complete and utter idiots.


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## Headhunter (Mar 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Then pick another hobby?  Just saying.


Why should they? It's their life it's their choice if they enjoy themselves learning online who are we to judge thrm


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## pdg (Mar 23, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Have you seen the programmes about the RNLI on BBC2 in the evenings? Staggeringly brave people looking after often complete and utter idiots.



Oh I know, like that plonker who set sail in a bath...

Want to do it, fine - but you should waive your access to any rescue services.

Me in the sea? Yeah, alright, on a ferry, just. I swim like a cat and I know it...

Flailing, screeching, clawing at anything in range with a look of wild panic in my eyes 






But, I think there's a miscommunication going on here...

You said:



Tez3 said:


> other *currants* in the sea?



The only reason there are currants in the sea is because someone dropped their pack of dried grapes.

It's _currents_ you need to watch...



(Yes, I was being facetious)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2018)

If you

- squeeze a small rock among 3 of your fingers daily.
- lift a 100 lb heavy bag with bear hug daily.

You can still develop strong grip and strong bear hug without any teacher.


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## Buka (Mar 23, 2018)

Opinion - both are great supplements to training. And two, like a lot of others, I highly recommend.

Otherwise, they're great for squeezing small rocks and lifting heavy bags.


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## Kababayan (Mar 23, 2018)

I don't remember if I said this already, so I apologize if I am repeating myself. I think online courses work well if you have a strong foundation in a previous art.  It could work for Black Belts, for example, who are trying to pick up some additional tips or techniques from a new art. It wouldn't work well if a stand-up martial artist was trying to learn grappling, but if a Kenpo practitioner wanted to learn some JKD-stuff, sure, if there is a sold martial arts background already in place.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> (Yes, I was being facetious)


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## KenpoMaster805 (Mar 23, 2018)

i rather do it in the dojo not online because you never now they might teach ya the wron stuff online


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2018)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> i rather do it in the dojo not online because you never now they might teach ya the wron stuff online



They might teach you the wrong stuff in the dojo.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> They might teach you the wrong stuff in the dojo.


I was going to say that too. There was a Karate school that taught Taiji. When their students did Taiji, it was like a car with square wheels. It goes 1,2,3,4, and 1,2,3,4, and ...

If you learn Taiji online, at least your Taiji may be continuous. So which one can be worse?


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## drop bear (Mar 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I was going to say that too. There was a Karate school that taught Taiji. When their students did Taiji, it was like a car with square wheels. It goes 1,2,3,4, and 1,2,3,4, and ...
> 
> If you learn Taiji online, at least your Taiji may be continuous. So which one can be worse?



Yeah. You would absolutely get consistency.


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2018)

On Their Toes and Asking for Trouble,   Self-Taught Ballerinas Go Online

Why would you think martial arts is any different from this? I especially liked the comment that anyone teaching themselves has a fool for a teacher. We've seen on here before people telling us they get hip pain when kicking and asking for advice, we say ask your instructor but it turns out they're teaching themselves. Jumping/spinning/flying kicks are being learnt from video and learnt wrongly. People learning chokeholds, ankle locks etc online then using them on friends such a good idea... not.
It can be surprisingly easy to hurt yourself learning from videos when you are a beginner or intermediate student and what is worse to continue to hurt yourself because you receive no correction or learn how to do techniques properly. 

There's a different between learning 'the wrong thing' and learning badly performed techniques which cause permanent damage.


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## pdg (Mar 24, 2018)

It doesn't count as a 'course', but I learned how to do a twisting kick using online and printed resources...

Caveat: I'd been doing TKD and kickboxing for over a year under actual instruction.

Possibly because of the instruction, I started by doing it slow and adjusting position whenever I felt anything start to get tight - instead of ploughing through telling myself I must just have to get used to it.

It's not a theoretically complex technique, but you can easily damage yourself doing it wrongly.

There _are_ some things you just have to condition toward, but as a complete beginner following an online video/written course, how do they identify that?

Even the type that offers feedback on you sending a video in, that could be weeks of practicing (and ingraining) pulling your hip - which a face-to-face instructor should spot and correct straight away.


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## _Simon_ (Mar 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Case in point...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh I cringed at every single one of those... who knew the pole could actually snap! Scary stuff haha..


I think what was brought up before about having a foundation can really help, and I really don't think it's a black and white issue. There are pros and cons to it, and it very much seems context dependent. It depends on what the goal of the training is and what you're wanting out of it. Of course you're prone to not doing it correctly, injuring yourself etc, but that may be said for many many things that you can learn on your own. But it can be quite a valuable experience teaching yourself something.. Having a teacher always obviously helps, but I know many musician friends/associates who have pretty much become self-taught, and are absolutely incredible at what they do.. Obviously different to martial arts in terms of risk and general activity, but nevertheless a skill learned well.

Depends on the activity, depends on the willingness and openness to learn, depends on the complexity of the activity, depends on the maturity of the participant, depends on the capacity of the person and genetic/neuromuscular/joint predispositions.. too many 'it depends'!

Might be a case of if we're discussing 'is it a good idea?' vs 'is it possible?'


The point about currants was really important too.

(..... that one got me.. XD)


That's really great we're discussing this topic finally... hasn't been brought up ever before so I'm glad we can address it......

XD


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> That's really great we're discussing this topic finally... hasn't been brought up ever before so I'm glad we can address it......



The topic of learning online has come up multiple times over the years, so much so to many of us it's like flogging a dead horse. However as you have just got here it's cool that you haven't been able to discuss it before.   a few from just last year, fill your boots.
Learning from DVD's
What martial art is best for a beginner and can I teach myself?
Tkd by video
KUNG FU
Should I train Kobudo all by myself?


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 24, 2018)

i learned to play baseball and football and hockey by watching it on tv then going out and playing it with my friends.  i didnt really understand the rules, didnt get any coaching from an adult  and you know what,, i didnt come away with any life threatening issues....or any health issues for that matter.  i also taught myself to swim with no help or instruction from any adult or pro swimming coach....i didnt drown. i also learned to punch the heavy bag by watching "ROCKY"  bent my wrist a few times no big deal.  learned a spinning crescent kick from watching Chuck Norris movies.
oh and i did learn to not hit your thumb with a waffle face framing hammer with no instruction from the pro's   nope that one was ALLLL ME.


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## _Simon_ (Mar 24, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The topic of learning online has come up multiple times over the years, so much so to many of us it's like flogging a dead horse. However as you have just got here it's cool that you haven't been able to discuss it before.   a few from just last year, fill your boots.
> Learning from DVD's
> What martial art is best for a beginner and can I teach myself?
> Tkd by video
> ...


(Ah.. I was being 1000% sarcastic hehe... Yeah it comes up quite a bit I've noticed XD)


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> (Ah.. I was being 1000% sarcastic hehe... Yeah it comes up quite a bit I've noticed XD)




yeah I knew but as it hasn't come up since you joined I thought you'd like a bimble through old threads, it's the fashionable thing to do here at the moment............


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## _Simon_ (Mar 24, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> yeah I knew but as it hasn't come up since you joined I thought you'd like a bimble through old threads, it's the fashionable thing to do here at the moment............


Hehe ah cheers, appreciate it Tez3. Actually interested in what previous answers came up, will have a look  [emoji106]


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## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Why should they? It's their life it's their choice if they enjoy themselves learning online who are we to judge thrm


Actually we are people who know better.  It isn’t about judging them.  It’s about trying to educate them about the proper way to go about things.

Of course not everyone is open to being educated.


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## Marie_Flowers88 (Mar 26, 2018)

rachel_grfn said:


> Hey there everyone! Just wanted to get your thoughts on something. What are your opinions on learning martial arts from an online course, as opposed to at a class or gym? How far can you get learning purely from online videos and so on? And can online courses be a useful supplement to in-person training? Are there any courses that you guys particularly like?



I think online courses will be useful if you already in an advanced training. But for a beginner, nothing can replace an actual teacher teaching you on the spot.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i learned to play baseball and football and hockey by watching it on tv then going out and playing it with my friends.  i didnt really understand the rules, didnt get any coaching from an adult  and you know what,, i didnt come away with any life threatening issues....or any health issues for that matter.  i also taught myself to swim with no help or instruction from any adult or pro swimming coach....i didnt drown. i also learned to punch the heavy bag by watching "ROCKY"  bent my wrist a few times no big deal.  learned a spinning crescent kick from watching Chuck Norris movies.
> oh and i did learn to not hit your thumb with a waffle face framing hammer with no instruction from the pro's   nope that one was ALLLL ME.



If you did all that and learned everything perfectly, without injury, I salute you!

But doubting Thomas that I am, I don't think you or anyone else could have.  Learn not to drown and still move forward in the water, maybe so.  Learn to move efficiently, I have my doubts.  Learn to hit a heavy bag and bent your wrist a few times but no big deal.  It took me a lot of practice to learn to hit properly as taught by my instructors.  Kick like Chuck Norris? well nobody does that anyway.  

If you were trying to be funny, I wasn't in a sufficiently funny mood, too early in the morning I guess.  I know there are things one can learn with a start from books and videos, then a lot of experimentation and practice.  I just don't think in my experience with learning TKD and Hapkido, that it can be done correctly.  Maybe I am the dunce.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 26, 2018)

Marie_Flowers88 said:


> I think online courses will be useful if you already in an advanced training. But for a beginner, nothing can replace an actual teacher teaching you on the spot.



I think you and others are correct in saying this.  But depending on the art, you may still need a teacher to catch little nuances of how you are doing something incorrectly, and showing you where you are wrong.  Those who require videos or in class attendance to check on progress may be able to catch those things.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> If you did all that and learned everything perfectly, without injury, I salute you!
> 
> But doubting Thomas that I am, I don't think you or anyone else could have.  Learn not to drown and still move forward in the water, maybe so.  Learn to move efficiently, I have my doubts.  Learn to hit a heavy bag and bent your wrist a few times but no big deal.  It took me a lot of practice to learn to hit properly as taught by my instructors.  Kick like Chuck Norris? well nobody does that anyway.
> 
> If you were trying to be funny, I wasn't in a sufficiently funny mood, too early in the morning I guess.  I know there are things one can learn with a start from books and videos, then a lot of experimentation and practice.  I just don't think in my experience with learning TKD and Hapkido, that it can be done correctly.  Maybe I am the dunce.



your combining two issues, i wasnt.  when ever the question of on line courses comes up there is post after post about how people will injure themselves. there is an uproar to the point that you would think there was a good probability of death.
can someone without prior experience get proficient at martial arts from watching a video,,no.  i do think there is an exaggerated focus on people getting injured by doing so.  i would bet the biggest injury would come from thinking you know how to fight and finding out otherwise should you find yourself in that position.  but other than that people do and have been doing physical activity without good instruction since the birth of man kind.  its not a big deal.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i do think there is an exaggerated focus on people getting injured by doing so.




In this day and age where people are snorting nutmeg/cinnamon, doing endless amount of stupid things one would think that it was perhaps exaggerated but sadly, you just know that there are people out her who will hurt themselves by trying to teach themselves martial arts.
There Are Hundreds Of Stupid Ways To Die, But These Have Got To Be Some Of The Silliest

Apart from, if we can stop someone even hurting themselves a little, as instructors we like to do that. It's instinctive for us to want to see someone getting the best out of training and doing well so of course we don't want people to try and teach themselves.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> your combining two issues, i wasnt.  when ever the question of on line courses comes up there is post after post about how people will injure themselves. there is an uproar to the point that you would think there was a good probability of death.
> can someone without prior experience get proficient at martial arts from watching a video,,no.  i do think there is an exaggerated focus on people getting injured by doing so.  i would bet the biggest injury would come from thinking you know how to fight and finding out otherwise should you find yourself in that position.  but other than that people do and have been doing physical activity without good instruction since the birth of man kind.  its not a big deal.


I tend to agree, but like everything, it depends.

When I was young, probably under ten years old, my brother (one year older than me) and I had a book on judo.  We went into the basement where we had a play space, rolled out a thin carpet over the concrete floor (that ought to be enough padding) and practiced our judo throws.  I landed on my head.  

Now that could be just the ignorance of the very young, or it could be a stupid move that a more mature person might make without proper guidance.  At any rate, we didn’t know how to throw properly, we didn’t know how to fall properly, and we certainly didn’t know what appropriate floor padding looked like. And I got hurt for it.

So it depends on what one is doing.

Mimicking kata?  Probably not imminantly dangerous.  Practicing throws?  Yeah, definitely dangerous.  
Hitting a heavy bag?  Potentially hazardous.
Practicing with weapons?  Possibly quite dangerous.
Two idiots having a sparring match?  Someone might get hurt.

The other thing is that improper technique can be dangerous, but I would say that is an injury that takes time to develop.  The way we practice the fundamental punching technique in my system will tear up your shoulders if you do it wrong.  Without proper instruction, I can guarantee you will do it wrong.

The way people tend to throw out their foot in a kick, will get them a broken ankle if they ever land it on a heavy bag.  And their hips can suffer over time, from side kicks and roundhouse and hook kicks.  Best to get good instruction to minimize that possibility.

So yeah, people have muddled through physical activities without good instruction since the dawn of time.  But some activities can hurt you, if you do them wrong.

But I tend to agree that the biggest issue is simply the self-delusion of developing crap martial arts and bad habits, while believing that one is developing good skills.


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## TheArtofDave (Mar 26, 2018)

You need a training partner so you get feedback. But I would suggest something like Krav that is easy to understand. None of the fake **** that people put out to try and rob you blind


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## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2018)

TheArtofDave said:


> You need a training partner so you get feedback. But I would suggest something like Krav that is easy to understand. None of the fake **** that people put out to try and rob you blind


Care to elaborate?


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> your combining two issues, i wasnt.  when ever the question of on line courses comes up there is post after post about how people will injure themselves. there is an uproar to the point that you would think there was a good probability of death.
> can someone without prior experience get proficient at martial arts from watching a video,,no.  i do think there is an exaggerated focus on people getting injured by doing so.  i would bet the biggest injury would come from thinking you know how to fight and finding out otherwise should you find yourself in that position.  but other than that people do and have been doing physical activity without good instruction since the birth of man kind.  its not a big deal.



Desperately defending a brand?

People have to train under me or they will learn it wrong. And could be infective and possibly hurt themselves.

With no guarantee that training under me is right. I could make them ineffective and hurt them. It is not like there is any requirement for my teaching to have any merit at all.

And has anybody noticed the mental backflips occuring here?

If all styles are created equal. Then online is as valid as physical instruction. But suddenly all styles are not equal.

We have seen the same argumenst made to keep people from cross training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2018)

The first time that I did my ski was in Copper Mountain, CO. Without any ski lesson, I got on the black diamond widow-maker. After I managed to get myself down, I jointed in a ski lesson right way. Without any ski lesson and think that I can ski on black diamond can be very stupid.


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