# Patterns with high kicks that students can't do



## Acronym (Oct 4, 2020)

How do you approach the situation in which a pattern prescripes a high kick that a student finds challenging? 


You could argue that it's better to do a good kick at a lower height rather than a mediocre one at high level.


However, the actual formal requirement of the pattern is head level, and postponing this might work against you, and passing him or her might be talking the short cut in their development. 

I personally would not allow the person to be graded unless he or she can reach jaw level, since that is what the pattern states and ones own jaw level does not take unreasonable flexibility. 

I talked to a 4th dan who took the first approach but to me this negates the hole point of personal development in martial arts. You are suposed to push yourself past what you used to be able to do!


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How do you approach the situation in which a pattern prescripes a high kick that a student finds challenging?
> 
> 
> You could argue that it's better to do a good kick at a lower height rather than a mediocre one at high level.
> ...



FWIW the Chang Hon system does not designate Jaw or head level .    The levels are (with some exceptions) High = eye, Middle = Shoulder and Low = Umbilicus   and technique specific. 
Situations are different. Is the student unable to reach the level currently because they have not developed to that level but can? Then they need to keep working at it.   This matter was addressed at an ITF IIC and the consensus was to have the student do the kick at a level where they could do the best kick if they had physical limitations.  I have extrapolated this to some difficult jumping kicks and advised that instead off doing a jump with an unrecognizable kick they do a non jumping variation or a jump that is not technically accurate but still looks like the kick.   I have dubbed this the "Old Man" version. 
It is really not something to be argued - it is something the student's instructor needs to determine.


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## skribs (Oct 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How do you approach the situation in which a pattern prescripes a high kick that a student finds challenging?
> 
> 
> You could argue that it's better to do a good kick at a lower height rather than a mediocre one at high level.
> ...



Form comes first.  Everything else is secondary.  A poorly formed head-level kick is not going to look as good as a proper kick at belt height.  The funny thing about it is that if you do the kick with proper form as high as you can, you're working on both your leg strength and flexibility so that you *can* kick higher.

As to grading, one thing you need to understand: a white belt testing for a yellow belt isn't supposed to have black belt level skills.  Heck, even a black belt isn't supposed to have a mastery of the art yet.  It is up to the Master what is expected of each belt.  These are things that can always be improved on later.


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## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW the Chang Hon system does not designate Jaw or head level .    The levels are (with some exceptions) High = eye, Middle = Shoulder and Low = Umbilicus   and technique specific.
> Situations are different. Is the student unable to reach the level currently because they have not developed to that level but can? Then they need to keep working at it.   This matter was addressed at an ITF IIC and the consensus was to have the student do the kick at a level where they could do the best kick if they had physical limitations.  I have extrapolated this to some difficult jumping kicks and advised that instead off doing a jump with an unrecognizable kick they do a non jumping variation or a jump that is not technically accurate but still looks like the kick.   I have dubbed this the "Old Man" version.
> It is really not something to be argued - it is something the student's instructor needs to determine.


Fully agree. I suspect the OP is thinking in terms where the kick end upon contact. Of course that is far from true. Where most kickers get swept is when they get way out of position or have difficulty returning to a guard position.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How do you approach the situation in which a pattern prescripes a high kick that a student finds challenging?
> 
> You could argue that it's better to do a good kick at a lower height rather than a mediocre one at high level.



I would definitely agree with that.



Acronym said:


> However, the actual formal requirement of the pattern is head level, and postponing this might work against you, and passing him or her might be talking the short cut in their development. I personally would not allow the person to be graded unless he or she can reach jaw level, since that is what the pattern states and ones own jaw level does not take unreasonable flexibility.



So you require 100% accuracy to pass your gradings? I documented how we do our gradings (1) as I feel it's a very fair system - but the basis of it is you start with X marks for accuracy and marks are removed for minor (slightly wrong heigh, slightly bent knee, etc) and major mistakes (wrong move, missing move, wrong target). So they'd get a major mistake for not a head kick, but that in itself is not a failure.

I could understand it if it was a movement that we'd expect everyone to be able to do, but Taekwondo is about a lifelong journey and as long as improvement is there, you shouldn't expect perfection on every movement.



Acronym said:


> I talked to a 4th dan who took the first approach but to me this negates the hole point of personal development in martial arts. You are suposed to push yourself past what you used to be able to do!



So what if they could only kick waist high at the start, but have pushed themselves to be able to do it at chest high now? Still wouldn't test them because they can't get to head?

(1) How to do a Taekwondo promotion test objectively


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How do you approach the situation in which a pattern prescripes a high kick that a student finds challenging?
> 
> 
> You could argue that it's better to do a good kick at a lower height rather than a mediocre one at high level.
> ...


To me, it depends on two things: 1) why they can't do the kick at that height, and 2) what the point of the test requirement is.

If they can't do the kick at that height because they simply aren't there yet, they should definitely be marked down. If the requirement in question (see point #2) is important enough, it might fail them. However, if they can't do it because of some permanent limitation, I'm likely to look for something else - either a functional equivalent, or maybe test them on an entirely different technique.
Is the test about getting a specific result for fundamental purposes, or about testing their functional ability? There are requirements that were built into NGAA's testing at a time when the average new student was in their teens or early 20's. With that assumption, certain requirements were held for 2nd dan (usually 10-13 years in). If someone starts at 40, those requirements (jumping kicks, in a system that doesn't emphasize kicks) may no longer make sense, if their original point was to give folks another level to work to and exercise their athleticism (meant for someone who would be in their late 20's to mid-30's, not someone in their early to mid 50's).
Mind you, there are times when their own limitation means they simply cannot meet reasonable guidelines for ranking. If someone has weak hands due to a neurological disorder, there's no reasonable way to grade them up in a grappling system unless they figure out a way to be fantastic without a reasonable grip (something I can't fathom). So a corrollary to #2 is a question about what they can't do: is this fundamental to the system they're trying to grade in? In your OP, is a head kick fundamental to your TKD system? If so, at some point the inability to do one means they can't progress.


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How do you approach the situation in which a pattern prescripes a high kick that a student finds challenging?
> 
> 
> You could argue that it's better to do a good kick at a lower height rather than a mediocre one at high level.
> ...


well does it matter?
there is no way on earth im ever going to kick at head level, unless they are vertically challenged, ( i mean really small)

should thhat stop me from progessing if i can smash their thigh up good.

its a genuine question, clearly i think not, its a fightibg art, if i can hit them and hurt them then its goal accomplished, 

added to, i really wouldnt do it even if i could, its far to easy to catch the leg, or take the standing leg, i can do that with people beibg needlessly flash, im sure lots of people could do it to me


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Fully agree. I suspect the OP is thinking in terms where the kick end upon contact. .


For solo practice - Patterns - Chang Hon - all levels are designated in relation to the performer's / attacker's body.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 5, 2020)

FWIW in the Chang Hon system there are no kicks above shoulder level until the pattern for 1st Gup.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> So what if they could only kick waist high at the start, but have pushed themselves to be able to do it at chest high now? Still wouldn't test them because they can't get to head?
> 
> (



Yeah, I do not think that they are ready.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW the Chang Hon system does not designate Jaw or head level .    The levels are (with some exceptions) High = eye, Middle = Shoulder and Low = Umbilicus   and technique specific.
> Situations are different. Is the student unable to reach the level currently because they have not developed to that level but can? Then they need to keep working at it.   This matter was addressed at an ITF IIC and the consensus was to have the student do the kick at a level where they could do the best kick if they had physical limitations.  I have extrapolated this to some difficult jumping kicks and advised that instead off doing a jump with an unrecognizable kick they do a non jumping variation or a jump that is not technically accurate but still looks like the kick.   I have dubbed this the "Old Man" version.
> It is really not something to be argued - it is something the student's instructor needs to determine.



It does not designate anything beyond "high".  My only point about jaw level is that it is attainable even for people who are struggling, they just need to put in the work


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> For solo practice - Patterns - Chang Hon - all levels are designated in relation to the performer's / attacker's body.


Are you saying you do not take into consideration the motion(s) After leg extension? We emphasize that the return/back motion is just as important as the forward (with/without rotation) motion. 
I think we can agree most (not all) kicks in form pattern end with a step forward but the recovery/technique of that step is very important for more reasons than just ending up in a good stance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It does not designate anything beyond "high".  My only point about jaw level is that it is attainable even for people who are struggling, they just need to put in the work


While that's certainly true of the majority of people, it's not true of all people. Some folks have hip abnormalities that make kicking above about chest level pretty much impossible, and others can only do so with pain.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well does it matter?
> there is no way on earth im ever going to kick at head level, unless they are vertically challenged, ( i mean really small)
> 
> should thhat stop me from progessing if i can smash their thigh up good.
> ...


In context, it could matter. If a style is built around high kicks (not saying TKD is - just throwing out a case), then someone who can't do high kicks probably shouldn't grade in that style. Whether that is an effective fighting approach would be a different argument, of course.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well does it matter?
> there is no way on earth im ever going to kick at head level, unless they are vertically challenged, ( i mean really small)
> 
> should thhat stop me from progessing if i can smash their thigh up good.
> ...


But you are taking the style specific requirements out. It is like saying a person who has only practiced Wing Chun should be able to pass at TKD test. 
Yes, I get the direct logic that if you can smash the thigh that is a good thing, but that is outside the parameters since one can assume the high kicker can also smash the thigh.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> While that's certainly true of the majority of people, it's not true of all people. Some folks have hip abnormalities that make kicking above about chest level pretty much impossible, and others can only do so with pain.


Agree. I had two men who were very, very accomplished marathon runners. They were both in fantastic shape for that sport. But they really struggled with kicks and one of them never did get past chest level and I am convinced he never would even though he tried his best. Anatomically, he just was not going to get there, even in an excessive amount of time. From day one to about two years later he could never set on the floor and reach his toes and a split was maybe with the legs 3 feet apart. But he went really hard, had very good technique, was very solid at the curriculum and a very good presence in class. So the one limitation was outweighed by all the other positives.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. I had two men who were very, very accomplished marathon runners. They were both in fantastic shape for that sport. But they really struggled with kicks and one of them never did get past chest level and I am convinced he never would even though he tried his best. Anatomically, he just was not going to get there, even in an excessive amount of time. From day one to about two years later he could never set on the floor and reach his toes and a split was maybe with the legs 3 feet apart. But he went really hard, had very good technique, was very solid at the curriculum and a very good presence in class. So the one limitation was outweighed by all the other positives.


Running, if you only stretch for running, can result in some very strong limits around the hips that may not be correctible after a point. I'm convinced that's where some of my limits came from.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. I had two men who were very, very accomplished marathon runners. They were both in fantastic shape for that sport. But they really struggled with kicks and one of them never did get past chest level and I am convinced he never would even though he tried his best. Anatomically, he just was not going to get there, even in an excessive amount of time. From day one to about two years later he could never set on the floor and reach his toes and a split was maybe with the legs 3 feet apart. But he went really hard, had very good technique, was very solid at the curriculum and a very good presence in class. So the one limitation was outweighed by all the other positives.



I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> But you are taking the style specific requirements out. It is like saying a person who has only practiced Wing Chun should be able to pass at TKD test.
> Yes, I get the direct logic that if you can smash the thigh that is a good thing, but that is outside the parameters since one can assume the high kicker can also smash the thigh.


well no, its not,

its my engineering back ground i supose,
if you doing tkd just for the reason of saying your a black belt in tkd, then i suppose it matters,  maybe, , but why us the requirment there in the first place, its complely arbitrary  and in no way ties to an overall performance standard, it the equivelent of putting go faster stripes on your car or one of them silly wings and the car club saying no stripes no silly wing you cant be member, which is more or less true as a requirment, , turn up with a normal looking car that goes like stink and youl not join, coz, well somebody with a silly wing said so

the car with the silly wing might also go like hell, but thats not because of the silly wing

if i was teaching someone, who insisted on throwing high kicks at me id say," dont do that, coz three times out of 10 your going to end up on the floor, " and yes i know there are exceptional athletes,  whos kick i wont see comming, but not many of them


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high


some people, perhaps most people when they get out of adolescence,  never will,

its not really a function of our design of our design requirments, the ones who can are the outlyers

pick any mature adults at random and most wont be able to get their leg to 90 degrees


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In context, it could matter. If a style is built around high kicks (not saying TKD is - just throwing out a case), then someone who can't do high kicks probably shouldn't grade in that style. Whether that is an effective fighting approach would be a different argument, of course.


thats one of the reasons i drifted away from tkd, they put an over emphersis on something that was largely irrelevant to actualy fighting


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high


There is a distinct difference between static and dynamic stretching abilities. I can barely touch my toes (at my best, could, but not impressively), and have never gotten anywhere near a split. I can still, when warmed up, kick at head level with some kicks, and could probably get my others back up there with some work.

But I've worked with some folks who could not. They weren't dealing with the same kind of tightness I deal with. I'd never (I think) be able to develop a split - possibly couldn't have done so even in my 20's - but I have good range of motion. Some folks have a truly abbreviated ROM that can be increased, but will never approach those kicking heights.


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There is a distinct difference between static and dynamic stretching abilities. I can barely touch my toes (at my best, could, but not impressively), and have never gotten anywhere near a split. I can still, when warmed up, kick at head level with some kicks, and could probably get my others back up there with some work.
> 
> But I've worked with some folks who could not. They weren't dealing with the same kind of tightness I deal with. I'd never (I think) be able to develop a split - possibly couldn't have done so even in my 20's - but I have good range of motion. Some folks have a truly abbreviated ROM that can be increased, but will never approach those kicking heights.


i think its probebly true for anybody who isnt doing flexability/ mobility work,  that they can improve their mobility,  which is what you need rather than flexibility, 

but i know from my own hard exsperiance that just working very hard at it tops out a long way short of head kicks .

but you are still a long way above those that dont, and as ive stressed in my posts,  does this infact matter beyond an arbitrary  requirements in some arts,


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There is a distinct difference between static and dynamic stretching abilities. I can barely touch my toes (at my best, could, but not impressively), and have never gotten anywhere near a split. I can still, when warmed up, kick at head level with some kicks, and could probably get my others back up there with some work.
> 
> But I've worked with some folks who could not. They weren't dealing with the same kind of tightness I deal with. I'd never (I think) be able to develop a split - possibly couldn't have done so even in my 20's - but I have good range of motion. Some folks have a truly abbreviated ROM that can be increased, but will never approach those kicking heights.



Any normal human can achieve the full side splits according to studies. It can take as much as a year of dedicated practise, which is why people have a perception of it as unique.

Also, any normal human can kick to his/hers own jaw.  If you can stretch out your legs two feet to the side in a split position. (which 99.9% can) . You can do a high kick, regardless of anything else.


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Any normal human can achieve the full side splits according to studies. It can take as much as a year of dedicated practise, which is why people have a perception of it as unique.
> 
> Also, any normal human can kick to his/hers own jaw.  If you can stretch out your legs two feet to the side in a split position. (which 99.9% can) . You can do a high kick, regardless of anything else.


would you care to define normal? and post a link to the study, id love to see this 99.9 % bit

its not hard and not uncommon for people to quote scientfic reseach that they havent understood, havent actually read beyond the first line or two or just complely made up


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

[


jobo said:


> would you care to define normal? and post a link to the study, id love to see this 99.9 % bit
> 
> its not hard and not uncommon for people to quote scientfic reseach that they havent understood, havent actually read beyond the first line or two or just complely made up



*Can Everyone Do The Splits?*
Thomas Kurz, the author of Stretching Scientifically: A Guide to Flexibility Training (2), says that it’s a misconception to think that most people are _physically incapable_ of doing the splits. Kurz says “for the great majority of people the structure of joints and the length of ligaments are *not* an obstacle for doing splits.”

*Hips: Coxa Vara*





One exception that would prevent you from getting the splits is a condition called *Coxa vara*. Coxa vara is a structural deformity in the hips defined by “a decreased angle between the head and neck of the femur and its shaft” (3). The normal range for hip rotation is ~125 degrees, whereas people with Coxa vara have a more limited range of rotation (<125 degrees). It is also possible to have this condition only on one side.

There are also people with *Coxa valga* who can rotate beyond the normal hip range. For these individuals, it may be easier to train for the splits.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

Here's a side by side between static and dynamic flexibility for those who think there is any correlation.

 You should still work to improve static because it will make you kick high without having to rely on forward momentum. In other words, much less effort. So my job isn't done.. But right now... 

Static



 

Dynamic


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> *Can Everyone Do The Splits?*
> ...


you said " normal"" study "and"  99 9%."
i cant see any mention of any of those, its just an opinion piece,  by someone with a book to sell

did you just imagine the bits you said were there


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> you said " normal"" study "and"  99 9%."
> i cant see any mention of any of those, its just an opinion piece,  by someone with a book to sell
> 
> did you just imagine the bits you said were there



.
*
Coxa Vara* is a rare condition of the hip, affecting around 1 in 25,000 children, *with* either hip: boys and girls being equally affected.
*
1* in 25,0000 =.004%


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> .
> *
> Coxa Vara* is a rare condition of the hip, affecting around 1 in 25,000 children, *with* either hip: boys and girls being equally affected.
> *
> 1* in 25,0000 =.004%


you said STUDY, do you have a scientific study to back up your claims or not

its an easy question?

if you mis spoke and you meant to say i read some claim by a random bloke, then say that, it one or the other


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> you said STUDY, do you have a scientific study to back up your claims or not
> 
> its an easy question?
> 
> if you mis spoke and you meant to say i read some claim by a random bloke, then say that, it one or the other



No I don't have it and I won't dig it up either. And it was not based on him but he does explain why there is no limitations in a human body with no condition.


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I don't have it and I won't dig it up either. And it was not based on him but he does explain why there is no limitations in a human body with no condition.


thats alright mate, dont let not having scientific data stop you from claiming you have.
he may be correct with his hips thing, but that not the issue

you claimed 99.9 of people could do the splits,  there are other far more complex issues in why people can and cant than just hip flexation,


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> you claimed 99.9 of people could do the splits,  there are other far more complex issues in why people can and cant than just hip flexation,



Such as?


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Such as?


muscle spacsticity thats not clearly understood by science let a lone me,  go and have a read

8n essence
its tied to your central nervious system and the receptors in the muscle, at both extrems its a reconnised disability, inbetween their a contimum across the population in just how far your muscles will stretch,

i have no data, to show that the mean average can or cant do the spits, but im not claiming that i have, just thats its complicated  by other thibgs than hip rotation


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Any normal human can achieve the full side splits according to studies. It can take as much as a year of dedicated practise, which is why people have a perception of it as unique.
> 
> Also, any normal human can kick to his/hers own jaw.  If you can stretch out your legs two feet to the side in a split position. (which 99.9% can) . You can do a high kick, regardless of anything else.


The key bit there is "normal". Some folks have actual abnormalities in their hips that don't allow it.

As to the studies, I'd have to look at the population they studied. I've known some folks who I doubt daily work with a stretching coach could get them there in a year, as diligent work several times a week made little progress over time. That may be an age thing, though, and many studies are flawed because the easiest group to study (since many studies are conducted by universities) is young people.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The key bit there is "normal". Some folks have actual abnormalities in their hips that don't allow it.
> 
> As to the studies, I'd have to look at the population they studied. I've known some folks who I doubt daily work with a stretching coach could get them there in a year, as diligent work several times a week made little progress over time. That may be an age thing, though, and many studies are flawed because the easiest group to study (since many studies are conducted by universities) is young people.



I can't speak for them but I do know that dynamic flexibility works very similar to muscle memory. Flexibility is partly mental. your mind can tell you that a certain movement is foreign and not normal, and steer you towards bad mechanics even though you have the capacity. Then once that command has been overwritten you never lose it, even if you stop stretching.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> .
> *
> Coxa Vara* is a rare condition of the hip, affecting around 1 in 25,000 children, *with* either hip: boys and girls being equally affected.
> *
> 1* in 25,0000 =.004%


It's also "one condition", meaning there may be others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I can't speak for them but I do know that dynamic flexibility works very similar to muscle memory. Flexibility is partly mental. your mind can tell you that a certain movement is foreign and not normal, and steer you towards bad mechanics even though you have the capacity. Then once that command has been overwritten you never lose it, even if you stop stretching.


That last sentence is not entirely accurate. Injury can cause that system (I don't recall the correct name for it) to stop movement at a point that was once was easy.

Pretty much loses flexibility as they age. I've never seen an exception, though I expect some exist.


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## wab25 (Oct 5, 2020)

We had a guy training Jujitsu with us for many years. He was paralyzed from the waist down. This meant that he had no movement in his hips, or anything below. He would put on leg braces than held is legs straight and then used crutches to get around. Needless to say, Japanese Jujitsu has a bunch of standing throws. He had to learn different ways to do those throws. No amount of stretching or dedication was going to make his legs work. Uchi mata, and hane goshi were not going to be the same for him as for other folks. Now, he did learn how to throw, and even how to do hip throws. It was a challenge for us and him to figure out how and what he would do for the different throws and other standing techniques. 

When it came time for him to test, a technique was called, and he did his version of the technique. Then he had to explain why what he did was the technique called. He would explain how other people did the technique and what principles in that technique he was focusing on. Then he would explain and or show, where what he did practiced or used that same principle. Then other students of his current rank and lower would demonstrate the art. He would give them feedback and help them to improve in doing the art the way most folks do. He advanced in rank, even though he could not and will never be able to do certain techniques, in the way other people do.

(Note: He could do the splits quit easily. He would sit on the ground with his legs in their braces and grab a fist full of pant leg above his knee and put his legs into as much splits as you wanted him to... and then some... still could never kick head high though)

When dealing with people who are not able to do techniques the same way, I think this is a decent model for how work with them. They are expanding the things they can do. They are also spending a bunch of time understanding what people are supposed to be doing and supposed to be getting in a technique. And then learning how to help other people be better at their own technique. In fact, I think we should all take this kind of process when studying a technique, whether we can do the technique or not.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That last sentence is not entirely accurate. Injury can cause that system (I don't recall the correct name for it) to stop movement at a point that was once was easy.



Injuries can undermine anything, that goes without saying. The point is that you will not revert back to beginner mechanics even if you lay off for a full year and even though your flexibility has decreased. There are things that will obviously degrade like balance, power, control, height, etc but the fundamentals will be there because that's what your body last time around had been programmed to do. 

Rewiring martial arts body mechanics takes about 3 weeks of non-stop feeding of the new system., assuming you don't mix in the things you did before. Power in the new mechanics will lag behind a few more weeks or months because the body does not have strength in doing it the new way.


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## drop bear (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well does it matter?
> there is no way on earth im ever going to kick at head level, unless they are vertically challenged, ( i mean really small)
> 
> should thhat stop me from progessing if i can smash their thigh up good.
> ...



It is forms, not fighting. So you have different priorities.


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## Buka (Oct 5, 2020)

Normal. yes. Normal defines to a standard, an expected standard.

Around eighty-five percent of my students could kick you in the head, at will, with either foot. (he says proudly) But what about the other ones? The ones who did not have the normal capabilities no matter how much they stretched? What's one to do with those folks?

You train them in Martial Arts and teach them to fight to the best of their ability. You teach them how to beat people in a fight regardless of flexibility. And in some ways, they become better and smarter fighters. Several reasons for this - they get better because they HAVE to in order to survive in the dojo. They get smarter because they HAVE to figure out ways to beat superior flexibility and athleticism - which leads to more choices and weapons that the more flexible fighter has.

Two of my students in particular, two that I learned a lot from, always used to say, "I'm not here to earn a Black Belt, I'm here to learn how to_ beat _Black Belts."

Eventually, after a long time, they did earn the rank of Black - which neither one of them wanted. I told them, "Yeah, you like to play the underdog who can't head kick, beating visiting Black Belts on a regular basis. (We had an open visiting policy for sparring) It was a nice shtick - but time to get a new one."

Visiting Black belts used to watch classes, and would usually pick those two as ones they felt safest fighting against, because those two couldn't kick easily to the head, if at all. And both had great control so the visitors felt safe. And it always turned out the same way. The visitors would get smoked.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well no, its not,
> 
> its my engineering back ground i supose,
> if you doing tkd just for the reason of saying your a black belt in tkd, then i suppose it matters,  maybe, , but why us the requirment there in the first place, its complely arbitrary  and in no way ties to an overall performance standard, it the equivelent of putting go faster stripes on your car or one of them silly wings and the car club saying no stripes no silly wing you cant be member, which is more or less true as a requirment, , turn up with a normal looking car that goes like stink and youl not join, coz, well somebody with a silly wing said so
> ...


I do appreciate the engineering background. I am a lifetime EE with 2 Master degrees. 
I was simply referring to promotion in a given style. It would be near on impossible for me a TKD, Kali, and a smidge of Kung Fu guy to test for BB in Muay Thai without an amount of practice in that field. Yes, there are overlaps in almost every style but not fully comprehensive across the spectrum.
It would be like me an EE arguing with a NE about fission. I would loose every time.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high


Not at all certain what your point is.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Running, if you only stretch for running, can result in some very strong limits around the hips that may not be correctible after a point. I'm convinced that's where some of my limits came from.


We did consider that. Both men kept running races but not at the frequency they were before they started training. One man gained good flexibility over time, the other never did. That is why I say I feel it was genetic or something along those lines.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

Buka said:


> Normal. yes. Normal defines to a standard, an expected standard.
> 
> Around eighty-five percent of my students could kick you in the head, at will, with either foot. (he says proudly) But what about the other ones? The ones who did not have the normal capabilities no matter how much they stretched? What's one to do with those folks?
> 
> ...



I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't.  What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Not at all certain what your point is.



That static flexibility is a poor marker for what those people you wrote about are capable of dynamically if they put in the work


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't.  What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.


At the end of the day 'height' is not the real qualifier. This said from an Olympic circuit competitor. You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD; that is not at all conclusive for TKD as a whole. That is an all too common mistake made these days. 
Sometimes ignorance isn't so bliss.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That static flexibility is a poor marker for what those people you wrote about are capable of dynamically if they put in the work


I assure they were working harder than most the younger people in the Dojang. And they were more fit overall than almost all everyone there. It was just a different kind of fitness. 
Like I said, one runner did gain flexibility the other did not. I am certain it was genetic or along those lines. It certainly was Not from a lack of effort.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> At the end of the day 'height' is not the real qualifier. This said from an Olympic circuit competitor. You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD; that is not at all conclusive for TKD as a whole. That is an all too common mistake made these days.
> Sometimes ignorance isn't so bliss.



No it isn't. Sport has nothing to do with grading.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I assure they were working harder than most the younger people in the Dojang. And they were more fit overall than almost all everyone there. It was just a different kind of fitness.
> Like I said, one runner did gain flexibility the other did not. I am certain it was genetic or along those lines. It certainly was Not from a lack of effort.



And you seriously claim they made no progress in their flexibility? Why would they be anatomically wired differently than the rest of the population? I find it hard to believe that you have two students or whatever it was, in the same class, having the condition that affects 1 in 25K


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't.  What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.


Are you teaching students and grading them? 

If not, maybe it just isn’t your call to make.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No it isn't. Sport has nothing to do with grading.


Except when it is.


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## jobo (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I do appreciate the engineering background. I am a lifetime EE with 2 Master degrees.
> I was simply referring to promotion in a given style. It would be near on impossible for me a TKD, Kali, and a smidge of Kung Fu guy to test for BB in Muay Thai without an amount of practice in that field. Yes, there are overlaps in almost every style but not fully comprehensive across the spectrum.
> It would be like me an EE arguing with a NE about fission. I would loose every time.


i dont think your catching my engineering point

its form and function , asthetics have value, but not first in engineering, does it work reliability is the first question, can we make it p,retty comes later, does making it pretty  stop it workibg reliably, yes,oh better rethink that, then

its not about graded in another style, its about if the style you do is effective and are there eliments that are there for artistic reasons that effect that

high kicking is a high risk eliment, as pretty as it looks


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No it isn't. Sport has nothing to do with grading.


Um, yea; that is pretty much what I just said.


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## Acronym (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Um, yea; that is pretty much what I just said.



No You said: You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD;


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have no reservations about students who don't kick head height in class, that's entirely up to them. The problem is if the curriculum states that you are supposed to kick head height for a certain grade, and the student doesn't.  What's the purpose of the curriculum if you don't follow it? Might as well grade them without a test then.


Firstly, that's not curriculum, that's testing standards. IMO, those standards are a guideline for making sure a result is achieved. Ask yourself what the purpose is of testing to that standard. If the purpose is that the style cannot be the same style without that kick, then it's probably a reasonable approach not to grade them. If the purpose for that standard is to push people to achieve what they can (and most people can achieve that standard), then it should be adjusted to achieve that purpose with folks who cannot reasonably meet it.

It's all about knowing the purpose of what you're testing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And you seriously claim they made no progress in their flexibility? Why would they be anatomically wired differently than the rest of the population? I find it hard to believe that you have two students or whatever it was, in the same class, having the condition that affects 1 in 25K


I don't think you actually read his post before replying.


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## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No You said: You are making a determination based on a requirement from a martial Sport extension of TKD;


Yep, and all the other stuff I said along with that.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Are you saying you do not take into consideration the motion(s) After leg extension? We emphasize that the return/back motion is just as important as the forward (with/without rotation) motion.
> I think we can agree most (not all) kicks in form pattern end with a step forward but the recovery/technique of that step is very important for more reasons than just ending up in a good stance.


I  do not understand the initial comment >>>>Are you saying you do not take into consideration the motion(s) After leg extension? <<       As an aside the kicks are to be done with good balance in patterns and when I first learned how strict this was in the the kick is to be retracted, balance maintained an then step down I thought it as a lot of wasted time and motion but later considered it a good  training tool so people did not "Fall Into": the stance following the kick. Hope than makes sense.


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## Acronym (Oct 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yep, and all the other stuff I said along with that.



Which again had nothing to do with it


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## Acronym (Oct 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Firstly, that's not curriculum, that's testing standards.



Curriculum:

*the subjects comprising a course of study in a school or college.*

One such thing is to deliver a high kick.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I personally would not allow the person to be graded unless he or she can reach jaw level, since that is what the pattern states and ones own jaw level does not take unreasonable flexibility.



Out of interest, what rank do you hold? And what rank does your current organisation require for you to promote others?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Curriculum:
> 
> *the subjects comprising a course of study in a school or college.*
> 
> One such thing is to deliver a high kick.


The curriculum is the course of study, not the test. There are many things in my curriculum, for example, that I don’t test.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I talked to a 4th dan who took the first approach but to me this negates the hole point of personal development in martial arts. You are suposed to push yourself past what you used to be able to do!


IMO the job as an instructor is to help students attain levels past what they thought was possible.   But, by the same token not try to push past what is realistically possible.   My Instructor who is head of the organization would say that he promoted thousands of people to BB. Perhaps 10 could do every kick well,  and perhaps 5 of those could do every kick well with both legs.   I met a guy years ago -born without arms.  He modified pattern hand techniques to use his legs.   He still reached BB level and beyond.  Point being  that the "Standards" for rank can very due to circumstances.


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## Acronym (Oct 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> IMO the job as an instructor is to help students attain levels past what they thought was possible.   But, by the same token not try to push past what is realistically possible.   My Instructor who is head of the organization would say that he promoted thousands of people to BB. Perhaps 10 could do every kick well,  and perhaps 5 of those could do every kick well with both legs.   I met a guy years ago -born without arms.  He modified pattern hand techniques to use his legs.   He still reached BB level and beyond.  Point being  that the "Standards" for rank can very due to circumstances.



Is Charles E Sereff your instructor?


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## Acronym (Oct 6, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> Out of interest, what rank do you hold? And what rank does your current organisation require for you to promote others?



I'm a red belt. The required rank is 4th Dan.


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## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Curriculum:
> 
> *the subjects comprising a course of study in a school or college.*
> 
> One such thing is to deliver a high kick.


No, saying "high kick" is a very generic term. What kick? What leg? What stance? Which leg? etc...
Not at all the same as a curriculum.


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## Acronym (Oct 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> No, saying "high kick" is a very generic term. What kick? What leg? What stance? Which leg? etc...
> Not at all the same as a curriculum.



Pattern Wha Rang dictates a high kick turning kick from both legs.


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## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I  do not understand the initial comment >>>>Are you saying you do not take into consideration the motion(s) After leg extension? <<       As an aside the kicks are to be done with good balance in patterns and when I first learned how strict this was in the the kick is to be retracted, balance maintained an then step down I thought it as a lot of wasted time and motion but later considered it a good  training tool so people did not "Fall Into": the stance following the kick. Hope than makes sense.


We are on the same page I think. I would say I find it more paramount in active sparring in many ways. Not as precise but very, very important in being able to continue the sparring pattern. 
When you judge forms competition you look at the metrics you mention and more. But certainly, there is a difference in form vs. sparring. That is where some people get lost in the translation between the two.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is Charles E Sereff your instructor?


Sr. GM Sereff is my instructor.


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## Acronym (Oct 6, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sr. GM Sereff is my instructor.



Approximately how many members/schools does the United States Taekwondo Federation have? ITF seems to be very small in the US, so the USTF can't be very big?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Approximately how many members/schools does the United States Taekwondo Federation have? ITF seems to be very small in the US, so the USTF can't be very big?


Which is relevant in what way?


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## granfire (Oct 6, 2020)

there are other things in forms more challenging than the hight of a kick.
the ITA Choong Moo had a 360 jump in it. Surprisingly tough to master. 
Due to age and pre-existing conditions a friend of mine could never do a high chambered kick, Belt level was a good day for her
a crescent kick to the head tho, no problem! and that could throw you for a loop: The old gall can't kick that high....WHAMO. 
She was a pretty good puncher though (and hell with a short stick. I am glad we only ever trained with the rubber ones!)

Punch levels? Sure. High (head) middle (solar plexus) and low (lower than that, but not below the belt :wink wink
Kicks? not everybody can kick to the head.
And in the immortal paraphrased words of Bruce Lee 'Why?'
why spend time on working on a mediocre technique at best, when you can perfect a good one! 
some folks just do not have the flexibility.
Or the range!

But you can always kick somebody in the head after you brought them down with a different technique. Kick the legs out from under them first, or kick them in the gut. 
Plus their defenses won't be as strong.
I used to be able to reach somebody in the nose.
Now I would be happy to get above the belt.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Approximately how many members/schools does the United States Taekwondo Federation have? ITF seems to be very small in the US, so the USTF can't be very big?


The USTF has no affiliation with the any ITF so the relevant size of each has nothing to do with the other.  If I recall correctly you are affiliated with the NK ITF  so it should come as no surprise there are few people from the USA affiliated with that organization. (Not withstanding the highest ranking person affiliated with that group is in the USA.)  I really have no idea how many USTF or ITF schools / members there are in the USA. I do know that each of the 3 main ITF factions have members in the USA, .    The last ITF event I was at was an IIC in Colorado in 2010.


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> The USTF has no affiliation with the any ITF so the relevant size of each has nothing to do with the other.  If I recall correctly you are affiliated with the NK ITF  so it should come as no surprise there are few people from the USA affiliated with that organization. (Not withstanding the highest ranking person affiliated with that group is in the USA.)  I really have no idea how many USTF or ITF schools / members there are in the USA. I do know that each of the 3 main ITF factions have members in the USA, .    The last ITF event I was at was an IIC in Colorado in 2010.



But it is the same style. You use Chang Hon forms and similar curriculum as the ITF(s)? And sparring? 

When I joined my school 6 years ago, I asked a Karateka online in the US if he has been to any ITF dojang and there were zero of them in his state.....Otherwise he would want to try it out, he said.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

granfire said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> the ITA Choong Moo had a 360 jump in it. ..........................


Since you us e the past tense "Had"   does that mean this organization changed it?   Or am I over thinking things.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But it is the same style. You use Chang Hon forms and similar curriculum as the ITF(s)? And sparring?
> 
> When I joined my school 6 years ago, I asked a Karateka online in the US if he has been to any ITF dojang and there were zero of them in his state.....Otherwise he would want to try it out, he said.


USTF has maintained the same curriculum it had before the ITF disintegrated  and  the USTF separated itself from the successor organizations using the ITF moniker from any formal standpoint. 

As far as what any Karateka said about ITF schools in his state it is certainly possible it is also possibly inaccurate. .   Some states are sparsely populated, and there may be few if any that formally associate within  the state, yet there may be schools that have maintained the same curriculum they had before the ITF imploded and or  even after the ITF imploded but the heads of the schools decided to leave the successor organizations..


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> USTF has maintained the same curriculum it had before the ITF disintegrated  and  the USTF separated itself from the successor organizations using the ITF moniker from any formal standpoint.
> 
> As far as what any Karateka said about ITF schools in his state it is certainly possible it is also possibly inaccurate. .   Some states are sparsely populated, and there may be few if any that formally associate within  the state, yet there may be schools that have maintained the same curriculum they had before the ITF imploded and or  even after the ITF imploded but the heads of the schools decided to leave the successor organizations..



ITF footage tends to be European. Per capita, the US must be one of the least ITF populated places in the world.
In fact, I'm fairly confident that ITF-offshoots labelled "Traditional TaeKwonDo" far outnumber ITF and a lot of these places don't even have have contact sparring.


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

If this clip below is an emphasis in USTF schools, then I would say it does not adhere to the ITF curriculum.

None of these jumping variations are used in ITF sparring or basics training.

Jumping lead leg hook kick, Jumping pick shape kick, none of this is drilled in ITF.


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## granfire (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Since you us e the past tense "Had"   does that mean this organization changed it?   Or am I over thinking things.


the organization changed and I am no longer part of it. 
it evolved from a group of independent owners to a Franchise over the course of a couple of years 15 years or so ago and changed a lot around. 
Namely forms. As somebody at the time noted: Copy rights. 
If you use the old stuff you can't charge through the nose. 
And a lot of the more challenging things got removed.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2020)

It is truly sad to see/hear what has happened to the ITF.
Earl Weiss: 
This is a peculiar link I found while trying to get an idea of how many ITF schools there are in the USA. It is from the OTFA which I am not at all familiar with. Does this seem accurate?
Schools – OTFA


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is truly sad to see/hear what has happened to the ITF.
> Earl Weiss:
> This is a peculiar link I found while trying to get an idea of how many ITF schools there are in the USA. It is from the OTFA which I am not at all familiar with. Does this seem accurate?
> Schools – OTFA



Not a single ITF school as I predicted.


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Joe Rogans WTF instructor used to be ITF, so by the 80s the ITF was close to exterminated in the US


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If this clip below is an emphasis in USTF schools, then I would say it does not adhere to the ITF curriculum.
> 
> None of these jumping variations are used in ITF sparring or basics training.
> 
> Jumping lead leg hook kick, Jumping pick shape kick, none of this is drilled in ITF.



You could say whatever you want and still be wrong.   I never said it strictly limited itself to only what is found in the text.   It certainly includes what the text stipulates and adds to it as do most schools who practice the system.   You are correct that the text (for whatever reason) only includes the "Reverse Hook Kick" as the attacking kick. So there is no lead leg or (jumping lead leg) example in the text. Yet as this lead leg  kick was made famously effective by Bill Superfoot  many ITF people practice it and it is  it is certainly allowed in ITF sparring. . "Jumping"  per volume IV is used to cover distance and there is no prohibition on using it in concert with any kick, so that fact that the Jumping Pick shape kick variation does not appear in the text is basically meaningless.  Vol IV also states "The student whom has taken the time to Master a flying kick is able to spring into the air with any number of kicks......"   Note the lack of any limitation to only the examples shown in the text.  Further "Pick Shape Kick" is explained as a "Variation of a downward Kick, (Vol IV) and Flying downward kick is listed.   If anyone is following this the above video is one entry of a couple of dozen used to provide examples of various techniques.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not a single ITF school as I predicted.


Check again.   OTFA is an ITF organization.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Joe Rogans WTF instructor used to be ITF, so by the 80s the ITF was close to exterminated in the US


I know there is a clip of Joe Rogan talking about the power of his side kick and how his instructor had some relationship with General Choi and attributes the power training to those days however it was not clear if that was KTA or ITF days. Do you have  link with more specific information?


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is truly sad to see/hear what has happened to the ITF.
> Earl Weiss:
> This is a peculiar link I found while trying to get an idea of how many ITF schools there are in the USA. It is from the OTFA which I am not at all familiar with. Does this seem accurate?
> Schools – OTFA



In each country the ITF (Weiler group)  operates thru one or more national governing bodies.   They preferred to have only one and wanted to do that again after General Choi died and they were working on the new constitution.   My input was that in the past due to personality conflicts, loyalties or whatever, huge groups split off from the National Body and therefore left the ITF and there should be a mechanism to retain sufficiently large groups so the ITF didn't lose those members.   This format in a fashion was adopted and the USA had several such groups of which the OTFA is one.  ITF USA  was another.  I think they have now combined under a single Umbrella in the USA  but may maintain some sort of separate organizational structure for certain purposes.   USA  –  Member Countries  –  International Taekwon-Do Federation


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> In each country the ITF (Weiler group)  operates thru one or more national governing bodies.   They preferred to have only one and wanted to do that again after General Choi died and they were working on the new constitution.   My input was that in the past due to personality conflicts, loyalties or whatever, huge groups split off from the National Body and therefore left the ITF and there should be a mechanism to retain sufficiently large groups so the ITF didn't lose those members.   This format in a fashion was adopted and the USA had several such groups of which the OTFA is one.  ITF USA  was another.  I think they have now combined under a single Umbrella in the USA  but may maintain some sort of separate organizational structure for certain purposes.   USA  –  Member Countries  –  International Taekwon-Do Federation


The link does not seem to work.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

[QUOTE="Acronym, post: 2014707, member: 42552" so by the 80s the ITF was close to exterminated in the US

[/QUOTE]
 For this you are in the running for the "Captain Obvious award"  This was true not only in the USA but throughout the world following the  exodus of Korean Instructors "motivated" to leave him, particularly  after he took the 1980 demonstration team to North Korea. I suggest you read "A Killing Art". 
 Suffice it to say ITF certified about  10,000 people to 1st Dan in the USA , (which is a pittance compared to KKW)   before General Choi died and about 300 people to second Dan in the USA  before the North Koreans saw their first example of TKD in 1980.


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> You are correct that the text (for whatever reason) only includes the "Reverse Hook Kick" as the attacking kick. So there is no lead leg or (jumping lead leg) example in the text. Yet as this lead leg  kick was made famously effective by Bill Superfoot  many ITF people practice it and it is  it is certainly allowed in ITF sparring. . .



Bill Wallace does not use a jumping, lead leg hook kick version, no do any ITF competitors


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The link does not seem to work.


I just tried it and it worked for me . Try this. 
USA  –  Member Countries  –  International Taekwon-Do Federation


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I know there is a clip of Joe Rogan talking about the power of his side kick and how his instructor had some relationship with General Choi and attributes the power training to those days however it was not clear if that was KTA or ITF days. Do you have  link with more specific information?



No I don't but since Omalley was one of Joe's main instructors and he's doing ITF forms and wearing an ITF uniform, it's safe to say he left the ITF somewhere around the time Joe joined.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Bill Wallace does not use a jumping, lead leg hook kick version, no do any ITF competitors


I said he used the lead leg hook kick - not the jumping version - yet this has nothing to do with following the "ITF curriculum"  if there even is such a thing.


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I said he used the lead leg hook kick - not the jumping version - yet this has nothing to do with following the "ITF curriculum"  if there even is such a thing.



None of those kicks demonstrated in that clip are part of the ITF curriculum as it relates to training, precisely because they are impractical compared to the grounded versions


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> [QUOTE="Acronym, post: 2014707, member: 42552" so by the 80s the ITF was close to exterminated in the US


 For this you are in the running for the "Captain Obvious award"  This was true not only in the USA but throughout the world following the  exodus of Korean Instructors "motivated" to leave him, particularly  after he took the 1980 demonstration team to North Korea. I suggest you read "A Killing Art".
 Suffice it to say ITF certified about  10,000 people to 1st Dan in the USA , (which is a pittance compared to KKW)   before General Choi died and about 300 people to second Dan in the USA  before the North Koreans saw their first example of TKD in 1980.[/QUOTE]

I have read a Killing art. ITF is very much alive in many parts of Europe, especially places like the UK, Poland, Russia, Sweden,


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I don't but since Omalley was one of Joe's main instructors and he's doing ITF forms and wearing an ITF uniform, it's safe to say he left the ITF somewhere around the time Joe joined.


No Jae Hun Kim    (Phonetic Spelling)  --- here at 5 Minutes,  Joe rogan's side kick - Yahoo Video Search Results


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## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

When I typed ITF Washington on Youtube where did I end up...?


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> None of those kicks demonstrated in that clip are part of the ITF curriculum as it relates to training, precisely because they are impractical compared to the grounded versions


Sir, Wrong again   Check Volume IV which includes the flying twin foot front snap Kick, Flying twin foot side Piercing Kick, Flying Vertical kick both in clip.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> No Jae Hun Kim    (Phonetic Spellin --- here at 5 Minutes,  Joe rogan's side kick - Yahoo Video Search Results



Jae Hun Kim was his HEAD instructor.

He says here Michael Omalley was the one who taught him the most.

11:55


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, Wrong again   Check Volume IV which includes the flying twin foot front snap Kick, Flying twin foot side Piercing Kick, Flying Vertical kick both in clip.



I wrote: "as it relates to training".


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> When I typed ITF Washington on Youtube where did I end up...?
> 
> /QUOTE]
> Not sure what this has to do with anything but it's also the initials for International Tangsoodo Federation


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I wrote: "as it relates to training".


.Who is making up these rules as to what is or is not included in training for any ITF group? (Not that I am certain if I really care. )


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> .Who is making up these rules as to what is or is not included in training for any ITF group? (Not that I am certain if I really care. )



I trained with black belts in 6 years, and none of the kicks he demonstrated are characteristic ITF kicks in the dojang. My instructor was president of the ITF in Sweden in 87.

The kicks normally covered in the curriculum are: turning and side kick, front kick, crescent kick, reverse turning kick, spinning hook kick, jumping and non jumping back kick, twisting kick, and flying side kick.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Jumping turning kick also.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2020)

This is a bizarre thread.  A red belt, no offense, arguing with a long time TKD practitioner that trained with General Choi, about what is or isn't ITF curriculum.  Only on the internet.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> This is a bizarre thread.  A red belt, no offense, arguing with a long time TKD practitioner that trained with General Choi, about what is or isn't ITF curriculum.  Only on the internet.



Mr Weiss claimed that their curriculum is based on ITF, yet not a single kick in that clip is trained in my ITF school or any other I've encountered.

I am not denying you can dig it up in the encyclopedia.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Mr Weiss claimed that their curriculum is based on ITF, yet not a single kick in that clip is trained in my ITF school or any other I've encountered.
> 
> I am not denying you can dig it up in the encyclopedia.



I may be mixing you up with someone else, but why do you care so much about defining what is or isn't "XXX"?  Especially when that line of discussion is invariably subjective to a great extent.  Not everything needs to be in a book and no one knows or has experienced EVERYTHING.

Personally, I'd be using Master Weiss as a resource instead of a 'debating' opponent if I were interested in ITF material and history.


----------



## Buka (Oct 7, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> This is a bizarre thread.  A red belt, no offense, arguing with a long time TKD practitioner that trained with General Choi, about what is or isn't ITF curriculum.  Only on the internet.



An underbelt trying to dictate information to one of the most respected TKD Masters in the country, yeah, that's something I want to listen to.

As for Mike O'Malley and Master Kim, knew both of them, went to their school at different times, can't speak highly enough about them. Class acts.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Personally, I'd be using Master Weiss as a resource instead of a 'debating' opponent if I were interested in ITF material and history.



Because I come across this time and time again. We have have people join us from ITF off-shoots and they don't do a damn thing we train. This was driving General Choi mad too, so I am carrying on his legacy here.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I don't but since Omalley was one of Joe's main instructors and he's doing ITF forms and wearing an ITF uniform, it's safe to say he left the ITF somewhere around the time Joe joined.


The uniform in the video you posted is not an ITF Uniform - at least not one from the modern era.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> The uniform in the video you posted is not an ITF Uniform - at least not one from the modern era.



In what way is this not an ITF uniform?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Because I come across this time and time again. We have have people join us from ITF off-shoots and they don't do a damn thing we train. This was driving General Choi mad too, so I am carrying on his legacy here.


I cannot speak for other groups including the one you belong to,  Only as to what  what I do and what the organization I belong to does.   Having been through the ITF International Instructor course 10 times, 7 with General Choi, Hosting a course with General Choi once, as well as attending other multi day events where he taught I think I have a fairly good idea as to what he wanted.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> In what way is this not an ITF uniform?


Note I said from the Modern era. ( circa 1990 and later )    Logo on back is not the ITF Logo r and no logo on the pants.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Buka said:


> An underbelt trying to dictate information to one of the most respected TKD Masters in the country, yeah, that's something I want to listen to.
> 
> As for Mike O'Malley and Master Kim, knew both of them, went to their school at different times, can't speak highly enough about them. Class acts.


Sir, any idea about there organizational affiliations timeline?


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Note I said from the Modern era. ( circa 1990 and later )    Logo on back is not the ITF Logo r and no logo on the pants.



Yes but that clip is clearly 80s judging by the quality. Mr Omalleys pattern delivery is also the precursor to sine wave - knee spring, so I would bet it's anywhere between 1983-1988.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I cannot speak for other groups including the one you belong to,  Only as to what  what I do and what the organization I belong to does.   Having been through the ITF International Instructor course 10 times, 7 with General Choi, Hosting a course with General Choi once, as well as attending other multi day events where he taught I think I have a fairly good idea as to what he wanted.



Did he want this?


----------



## Buka (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, any idea about there organizational affiliations timeline?



I do not, sir, no. Any time I was there, or chatting with either of them off the training floor, all we would talk about was the Arts, or kicking or fighting. I don't remember any of us ever speaking of organizations. 

Mike used to work somewhere that sold Martial Arts equipment, I can't remember where. I went in one day - and there he was. We talked about everything from sidekicks to women, but never about organizations. I don't think he cared anymore than I did. Nor Master Kim from what I remember. 

They were such nice people. I hope they're both well.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

I'll answer my own question in the mean time....

General Choi had a relaxation principle. The supposed traditional taekwondo school that I posted is a frenzy of rushes with no attention to posture... They are supposed to be ITF off-shoots yet are completely unrecognizable in spirit. They also focus on tripple spinning aerials, even for beginners. It is a school for acrobatics not TaeKwonDo.

Source: Student that joined us from there who was in for a surprise!


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Buka said:


> I do not, sir, no. Any time I was there, or chatting with either of them off the training floor, all we would talk about was the Arts, or kicking or fighting. I don't remember any of us ever speaking of organizations.
> 
> Mike used to work somewhere that sold Martial Arts equipment, I can't remember where. I went in one day - and there he was. We talked about everything from sidekicks to women, but never about organizations. I don't think he cared anymore than I did. Nor Master Kim from what I remember.
> 
> They were such nice people. I hope they're both well.



Kim would have to be former ITF since he made the claims of training with General Choi on the website.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

as for joe Rogans side kick, this is clearly Kukkiwon mechanics evident by the exaggerated shoulder turn.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Because I come across this time and time again. We have have people join us from ITF off-shoots and they don't do a damn thing we train. This was driving General Choi mad too, so I am carrying on his legacy here.


You knew Gen. Choi well?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I just tried it and it worked for me . Try this.
> USA  –  Member Countries  –  International Taekwon-Do Federation


Still getting 404 URL not found. Apache Server at www.taekwondoitf.org Port 443.
I tried just going to www.taekwondoitf.org and it still did not work. A strange page I have never seen before came up. 
I could not capture the image but here is the page text:

Web Server's Default Page
This page is generated by Plesk, the leading hosting automation software. You see this page because there is no Web site at this address.

You can do the following:


Create domains and set up Web hosting using Plesk.
What is Plesk
*Plesk* is a hosting control panel with simple and secure web server and website management tools. It was specially designed to help IT specialists manage web, DNS, mail and other services through a comprehensive and user-friendly GUI. Learn more about Plesk.


Developer Blog
Forum
Knowledge Base
Facebook
Twitter
Google+


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> This is a bizarre thread.  A red belt, no offense, arguing with a long time TKD practitioner that trained with General Choi, about what is or isn't ITF curriculum.  Only on the internet.


Kind of comedy gold though. I greatly admire Mr. Weiss' patience. Better man than I am.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I trained with black belts in 6 years, and none of the kicks he demonstrated are characteristic ITF kicks in the dojang. My instructor was president of the ITF in Sweden in 87.
> 
> The kicks normally covered in the curriculum are: turning and side kick, front kick, crescent kick, reverse turning kick, spinning hook kick, jumping and non jumping back kick, twisting kick, and flying side kick.


Well, either you accept the the General's encyclopedia contains the syllabus for the system or you don't. 
If an instructor chooses to not teach things that is their prerogative.  Whether you accept it as accurate or not is you prerogative.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Did he want this?
> 
> [


Want it for what purpose?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Still getting 404 URL not found. Apache Server at www.taekwondoitf.org Port 443.
> I tried just going to www.taekwondoitf.org and it still did not work. A strange page I have never seen before came up.


Sorry, I can't help you. I click on the posts and the links work - anyone else have issues?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'll answer my own question in the mean time....
> 
> General Choi had a relaxation principle. The supposed traditional taekwondo school that I posted is a frenzy of rushes with no attention to posture... They are supposed to be ITF off-shoots yet are completely unrecognizable in spirit. They also focus on tripple spinning aerials, even for beginners. It is a school for acrobatics not TaeKwonDo.
> 
> Source: Student that joined us from there who was in for a surprise!


So you are surprised that schools which severed links with the ITF however many years earlier and never did anything to make certain they were performing in accordance with current standards?    You should be surprised if they did perform in accordance with current standards.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sorry, I can't help you. I click on the posts and the links work - anyone else have issues?


I get a warning of an unsecured connection. I suppose it's possible the connection is hijacked in some way.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> So you are surprised that schools which severed links with the ITF however many years earlier and never did anything to make certain they were performing in accordance with current standards?    You should be surprised if they did perform in accordance with current standards.



I am surprised that they call themselves "traditional" in light of this, yes. Emphasising tripple spinning aerials for beginners is not part and parcel of traditional TaeKwonDo. It's the epitome of modern sport demo TaeKwonDo, which lacks all form of practicality. We had a student from there who couldn't spar to save his life. All he learned up to red belt was various spins and jumps. And of course no contact sparring.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

For those following this thread Acronym makes many erroneous conclusions and assumptions yet he is not completely off the mark.   Many schools are "ITF Style" but are anywhere along a spectrum with regard to being close to what General Choi wanted to far removed.   This has several causes. One is that General Choi recruited Martial Artists to Train, Teach and demo his system. These people had habits that did not change when they adopted the new system and those habits spread through their progeny.  Others made conscious changes.  For those born into the internet age it's hard to fathom what it must have been like to learn without video examples.   I  trained for 18 years with some of the highest ranking ITF instructors in the world before I went to my first course with Genera Choi. I didn't expect to learn much. Often he would say something and a voice inside my head would say "That's wrong" because I had been taught differently.  I would check what he said against the book and see how I was taught incorrectly and how things changed (Like the old telephone game where person A tells a story to B, and B tells it to C etc. )  as they passed from person to person.   I took notes and there were 150 things I needed to fix.   After the next course there were only 120.   Each successive course there were fewer.   So, for those who never had the opportunity to do this it's no surprise how their technique varies.   Another example was often related by competitors who said that in the 1980s there were a lot of differences in what people did.   By the mid 1990s due to many courses throughout the world the differences were nominal.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2020)

Being near O'Hare airport I get visitors who come to train from various parts of the world when they are in Chicago for work, school, vacation  etc.   I once had a visitor who was ITF style but had various differences  which I don't critique or try to change if they just come for a workout.    At one point I asked him to watch a pattern performed by regular students   After the pattern I then had each student tell him where they learned the pattern.   Aside from my students the answers were, Canada, Siberia, Czech Republic, Poland.    The visitors comment was "I would have thought they had all learned it from you since the technique was nearly identical - That is the beauty of the system.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I trained with black belts in 6 years, and none of the kicks he demonstrated are characteristic ITF kicks in the dojang. My instructor was president of the ITF in Sweden in 87.



I know here in the internet wildlands rank doesn't seem to mean much, but I'm finding it pretty funny that someone who has "trained with black belts in 6 years" is arguing with Grandmaster Earl Weiss on what is and what isn't ITF Taekwon-do.

GM Weiss and I have had many interesting debates and discussions over the years (I don't remember any of them getting really heated but I maybe have a thick skin and a terrible memory), however I'd never presume to tell him what his side of the fence looks like...


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## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> After the pattern I then had each student tell him where they learned the pattern.   Aside from my students the answers were, Canada, Siberia, Czech Republic, Poland.    The visitors comment was "I would have thought they had all learned it from you since the technique was nearly identical - That is the beauty of the system.



To be honest, I think this is one area of TKD where ITF wins. The standards known/taught by ITF are much more unified than KKW standards internationally. If you attend KKW courses, all the Koreans do things the same way (99%) including all of the instructors. But internationally it's a whole mess.

There are so many reasons why people don't claim to do KKW standards for Taekwondo:

We do "traditional" Taekwondo and don't follow Kukkiwon
This is the way our Kwan does it
The standards change with every KKW president, so why bother changing
This is the way my instructor did it, he's a Z Dan so he really knows what's right
It's a bit embarrassing, but then they go to Kukkiwon to do the course, see the unification and how to do it correctly, and most then change/learn. It's just a shame more don't attend the course (although that will change with it now being required to become a Poom/Dan Examiner through KMS).

Anyway, just wanted to share that I thought that's a place where ITF is doing better than KKW.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> To be honest, I think this is one area of TKD where ITF wins. The standards known/taught by ITF are much more unified than KKW standards internationally. If you attend KKW courses, all the Koreans do things the same way (99%) including all of the instructors. But internationally it's a whole mess.
> 
> .



It was the ITF mandating the instructor course once per Dan Rank (I think for 4th Dan and After) that served to effectuate the change to unified technique.  It my have taken 7-8 year or so to see it happen. Perhaps it will be the same for KKW.  Lest some think this stifles creativity and innovation, it is only the standard students need to know for the classic exercise. People are still free to modify and innovate for sparring nd special techniques etc.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 8, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> To be honest, I think this is one area of TKD where ITF wins. The standards known/taught by ITF are much more unified than KKW standards internationally. If you attend KKW courses, all the Koreans do things the same way (99%) including all of the instructors. But internationally it's a whole mess.
> 
> .



Do you have any concrete examples?


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> It was the ITF mandating the instructor course once per Dan Rank (I think for 4th Dan and After) that served to effectuate the change to unified technique.  It my have taken 7-8 year or so to see it happen. Perhaps it will be the same for KKW.  Lest some think this stifles creativity and innovation, it is only the standard students need to know for the classic exercise. People are still free to modify and innovate for sparring nd special techniques etc.



The Kukkiwon instructor course has been going on for maybe 20 years, but it's not mandatory. That's what's holding standardisation back. If we required it to reach master rank (for us, 4th Dan and above) then the KKW world would be much more unified. Thanks for the insight in to what worked for ITF.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do you have any concrete examples?



OMG, too many to list. Some of my "favourite" common mistakes people perform when they don't know what the correct standards are:

Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)

Lifting up on the balls of their feet during ready position (joonbi)
Jerking in to the final position during a slow motion (for example joonbi, but movements in poomsae too), i.e. a snap at the end - this shouldn't be there
Low block starting from the crease of the elbow or a X by the side of the head, rather than the crease of the shoulder
Long stance being one shoulder width wide, rather than one fist-width wide
Pronouncing it as "Thai-kwondo" instead of "Teh-kwondo".
There are lots of others, but those would be the top 6. There have been so many people I've seen do a pattern on the Kukkiwon master courses they're proud of and you can just think "great, but every movement had a mistake - you need to REALLY listen during the poomsae lessons". There are others who are well standardised of course, but I'd say 75%+ of international candidates aren't.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> The Kukkiwon instructor course has been going on for maybe 20 years, but it's not mandatory. That's what's holding standardisation back. If we required it to reach master rank (for us, 4th Dan and above) then the KKW world would be much more unified. Thanks for the insight in to what worked for ITF.


If memory serves the KKW course was held only in Korea for a while.  I think I may have heard of a couple of others outside of Korea but not a lot.  Have there been many outside Korea?   Starting in the 1980's Park Jung Tae and Later General Choi traveled the world teaching the courses which made them more accessible. Sr. GM Sereff also taught a couple one of the very few others authorized to do so.   From 1990 to 2002 there were about 100 courses held throughout the world plus various other seminars.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> OMG, too many to list. Some of my "favourite" common mistakes people perform when they don't know what the correct standards are:
> 
> Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)
> 
> .




Interesting - The ITF Bow is 15 degrees with the eyes looking ahead.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 8, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> OMG, too many to list. Some of my "favourite" common mistakes people perform when they don't know what the correct standards are:
> 
> Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)
> 
> ...


----------



## Acronym (Oct 8, 2020)

Some surprisingly sloppy deliveries in that highlight reel.

look at the gentleman on the left in the first clip. His toes are pointing up in the side kick. I thought pattern competitors were way more precise than that to even fill a competitor spot.


----------



## Acronym (Oct 8, 2020)

I always pronounce it: "ThaiKwanDo".' It's a great name General Choi submitted. 

"Tae Soo Do" is terrible... Glad that never caught on.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> The Kukkiwon instructor course has been going on for maybe 20 years, but it's not mandatory. That's what's holding standardisation back. If we required it to reach master rank (for us, 4th Dan and above) then the KKW world would be much more unified. Thanks for the insight in to what worked for ITF.


That is where globally it becomes a political nightmare.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is where globally it becomes a political nightmare.



I do not understand. I always wondered why an organization the size of Kukki TKD did not put together a staff of traveling instructors who would conduct classes in various locations throughout the world.   I seem to recall that there my have been a course in Las Vegas. Did that happen?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I do not understand. I always wondered why an organization the size of Kukki TKD did not put together a staff of traveling instructors who would conduct classes in various locations throughout the world.   I seem to recall that there my have been a course in Las Vegas. Did that happen?



It is the perfect example of Korean political structure. Everyone can get a piece of the pie as long as you meet 'this set of conditions' and follow the pecking order. To me it got out of hand in the 80's got better in the 90' & early 2000's and has floundered for a while. In the last five years some good effort has been made but not too much has been 'finalized into real change or a standard model. And the WT or sport side of the equation has too much power/control over the whole KKW/WT model. So anything resembling the foundation of KKW is waning. Another Korean 'ism' is their hands off approach to 'save face'. It is where a lot of the variation and inconsistency comes in around the globe. 
I have been through the KKW master course stateside. I cannot say whether it is identical to the Korean hosted courses but I believe it is very close. 
Being an older practitioner and competitor I cannot fully agree with andyjefferies opinion but I fully get where it is coming from. It does seem to be a KKW initiative to break as far away from the past as possible. A very sad thing to an older guy like me who has a pretty rich history in WT(F)/KKW TKD. I will take my type of TKD experience every time.

FWIW, critiquing people on the inflection of pronouncing Tae is...odd. If you have been around Koreas you know the emphasis is on the 'e'. In the America's (north & south) the emphasis is on the 'a' (often pronounced as an 'i'). It is just a cultural/regional/vocal thing that really isn't all that important. 
Hell, I am pretty redneck so who knows which I will use next time. 

On where the classes have been stateside, I believe, Vegas, Chicago and New York so far.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 10, 2020)

Simply there are things some of us will never be able to do. Personally what I look for in grading isn’t perfection but in the lower ranks at least. I want improvement. So if when a guy starts and he’s awful and can’t throw a punch at all by his grading I want to see him punching better not better but by seeing an improvement it shows me he’s worked hard to improve. When it gets to higher ranks like black belt and someone can’t do something yes it will go against them but I will ask them about it and if they can explain what they’re meant to do to me then that’ll give them points because they KNOW how to do and how to teach it to students but just struggle with it themselves. None of us are perfect and no one ever will be


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## dvcochran (Oct 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Some surprisingly sloppy deliveries in that highlight reel.
> 
> look at the gentleman on the left in the first clip. His toes are pointing up in the side kick. I thought pattern competitors were way more precise than that to even fill a competitor spot.


You have confirmed by your own explanation of MA your experience and the comments you have made that you have no ground or quality to judge this video.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 10, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> If memory serves the KKW course was held only in Korea for a while.  I think I may have heard of a couple of others outside of Korea but not a lot.  Have there been many outside Korea?   Starting in the 1980's Park Jung Tae and Later General Choi traveled the world teaching the courses which made them more accessible. Sr. GM Sereff also taught a couple one of the very few others authorized to do so.   From 1990 to 2002 there were about 100 courses held throughout the world plus various other seminars.



They tend to try to hold one each year now in each region (Europe, USA at least), but it depends on people's appetite to attend (therefore if they will cover the costs).


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 10, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)
> 
> Interesting - The ITF Bow is 15 degrees with the eyes looking ahead.



The reason it as explained to me on the Kukkiwon course is that the bow is 15% from the waist and 30% at the neck. The eyes are down because it's a respectful and friendly gesture and it doesn't look respectful or friendly if you don't trust the other person enough to take your eyes off them. I agree with that and always say to my students "if ever you're facing someone and don't trust them not to kick you in the face so don't feel safe, don't bow to them - in competition the referee will ensure they don't kick you, so you're safe"


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I always pronounce it: "ThaiKwanDo".' It's a great name General Choi submitted.
> 
> "Tae Soo Do" is terrible... Glad that never caught on.



There's no "Thai" sound in Korean. If you listen even to interviews of General Choi in Korean, he pronounces it correctly as "Teh kwon do".


----------



## serietah (Oct 26, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> OMG, too many to list. Some of my "favourite" common mistakes people perform when they don't know what the correct standards are:
> 
> Performing a bow with their eyes up (too much listening to Bruce Lee, not enough learning about Korean culture)
> 
> ...



....Oh dear. #1, no, oh goodness no. #6 I didn't know until I started learning Korean. Now people don't understand me when I say it correctly because they think it's thai-kwondo lol. #4 is good. I see a lot of the X by the head in videos but we do the chambered hand on your shoulder, below the ear, and other hand straight out. 

But #2 is pretty inconsistent. Our school owner doesn't teach it that way, but one master does and visiting masters we've had have done it as well. I don't teach students to go up on their toes, but I do it slightly when I do my own joonbi as its just a habit I've picked up from various masters who have taught me. 

#3 We do teach joonbi as slow then sharp at the end, but when I trained with a master specifically for poomsae for a tournament, he taught me to do the entire thing slowly. I know that there are "old ways" and "new ways" and "tournament ways" of doing some things so I really have no problem switching between techniques depending on what I'm doing. Even our double knife hand block is chambered and executed differently as a color belt vs black belt and switching between them when I'm teaching and practicing isn't an issue. I think I may ask my master about the joonbi thing just because I'm a TKD nerd and like to know the WHY for everything. 

#5 we teach forward stance as being shoulder wide. This is the first I've heard of fist-width. I find that fascinating! 


****

On the topic of the thread, I can't imagine the majority of people wanting to continue to train if they could never progress until they could do things perfectly. I cannot personally do a sidekick to head height. I'm flexible enough but lack the strength to actually bring my leg up that high. I can physically do it if I use a wall to balance but I can't do that during poomsae! My master knows I can't and he knows I've worked on it for the past nearly 5 years. So we've worked on the details of my kick so that it is technically correct, just lower than it "should" be. This cost me points in a virtual tournament this summer, but the commentators mentioned the details of my kick and that it was just low but good. If I was still a blue stripe because I can't do head level side kicks in Taegeuk 4, I probably would have quit years ago. I tested for blue in December 2016. My sidekicks were atrocious by my standards today, but for the level I was at the time, it's fine. 

Color belts don't need to be perfect and I can't even justify taking points off because someone can't do something. If they do their best, that should be "good enough". At black belt, we do Taegeuk forms again and make them better, but even then no one is perfect. That's just not realistic.


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## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2020)

serietah said:


> Color belts don't need to be perfect and I can't even justify taking points off because someone can't do something. If they do their best, that should be "good enough".


I really wanted to 'like' you comments but this part made me hesitate. I get not being overly critical But, and this is a big but for me, there has to be minimum standards outside subjective opinion. Perfection is a somewhat non-PC word these days But it should be strived for from day one. That should never be done in a condemning way but has to be stressed and expected. A very tough thing to do without turning people away or turning them off from training.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 27, 2020)

serietah said:


> ....Oh dear. #1, no, oh goodness no. #6 I didn't know until I started learning Korean. Now people don't understand me when I say it correctly because they think it's thai-kwondo lol. #4 is good. I see a lot of the X by the head in videos but we do the chambered hand on your shoulder, below the ear, and other hand straight out.



I brought this up with an announcer for the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) once because he kept saying it wrong and he said "it's in the official BBC pronunciation guide that way, maybe you're wrong?". I showed him videos of the Kukkiwon and WT president talking, both said it correctly, then I replied "oh well, maybe they're wrong...". Still he had a job to do, so I understand.



serietah said:


> But #2 is pretty inconsistent. Our school owner doesn't teach it that way, but one master does and visiting masters we've had have done it as well. I don't teach students to go up on their toes, but I do it slightly when I do my own joonbi as its just a habit I've picked up from various masters who have taught me.



Just so you know, this is consistent in Korea. It's only outside that people have their own weird ways.



serietah said:


> #3 We do teach joonbi as slow then sharp at the end, but when I trained with a master specifically for poomsae for a tournament, he taught me to do the entire thing slowly. I know that there are "old ways" and "new ways" and "tournament ways" of doing some things so I really have no problem switching between techniques depending on what I'm doing. Even our double knife hand block is chambered and executed differently as a color belt vs black belt and switching between them when I'm teaching and practicing isn't an issue. I think I may ask my master about the joonbi thing just because I'm a TKD nerd and like to know the WHY for everything.



I'd do the same. Feel free to share his answer if you don't mind. I'd also be interested if he does a final jerk in the slow movements in Taegeuk 6, 7 and 8. The punches in T8 I can understand because it's a strike (although it's still incorrect to do so, according to Kukkiwon standards), but I'd be interested if there's a jerk/snap in the slow movements in 6 and 7.



serietah said:


> #5 we teach forward stance as being shoulder wide. This is the first I've heard of fist-width. I find that fascinating!



The reason is that you want the weight to be biased forwards, for maximum power delivery. Lateral stability doesn't matter (during a fight/combat you aren't expected to stay in long stance position). The way it was demonstrated on the course was that the instructor had a guy in a long stance (think his was slightly wider than shoulder width, but not by a lot and I've done the same demo myself on shoulder width), then the guy puts out a punch with the same foot as hand (e.g. both left foot/hand out). The instructor then literally puts his palm on the fist and pushes towards the guy.

When the stance is wider, they always go off balance. When one fist between the inner edges of the feet, you'll have to push hard enough to lift their front foot off the floor to move them. So if you're aiming for maximum forward power delivery, why form your stance for lateral stability. Anyway, it resonated with me (aside from it just being "correct").

If you look in either the Kukkiwon Textbook or Grandmaster Kang Ik Pil's poomsae books, you'll see feet diagrams of the stances.



serietah said:


> Color belts don't need to be perfect and I can't even justify taking points off because someone can't do something. If they do their best, that should be "good enough". At black belt, we do Taegeuk forms again and make them better, but even then no one is perfect. That's just not realistic.



I get your overall point, but disagree with not taking points off. You should take off points for things not done well/correctly. However, the pass mark shouldn't be 100%! 

I can't remember if I've shared it in this thread or not (and too busy to hunt back through), but I wrote a blog post about how we score tests and I still stand by that now. How to do a Taekwondo promotion test objectively


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## WaterGal (Nov 3, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I do not understand. I always wondered why an organization the size of Kukki TKD did not put together a staff of traveling instructors who would conduct classes in various locations throughout the world.   I seem to recall that there my have been a course in Las Vegas. Did that happen?



My other half took it in Denver a few years ago. It sounds like it was a huge mess organizationally; i.e. they ended up pulling basically an all-nighter at one point because they didn't actually schedule enough days to finish the class. (I stayed behind and ran the school by myself, which was also a mess and super stressful lol.) I know there have been at least a few other master's courses offered in the US as well... I think they did one in Chicago and another in LA maybe?

Anyway, the impression I got is that KKW will work with a national/local TKD organization to put on a master's course, but the locals are expected to actually organize the thing and then KKW sends the teachers.


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## WaterGal (Nov 3, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> The Kukkiwon instructor course has been going on for maybe 20 years, but it's not mandatory. That's what's holding standardisation back. If we required it to reach master rank (for us, 4th Dan and above) then the KKW world would be much more unified. Thanks for the insight in to what worked for ITF.



Do you think that requiring the course to to promote students in KMS will be enough to change this?


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## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> My other half took it in Denver a few years ago. It sounds like it was a huge mess organizationally; i.e. they ended up pulling basically an all-nighter at one point because they didn't actually schedule enough days to finish the class. (I stayed behind and ran the school by myself, which was also a mess and super stressful lol.) I know there have been at least a few other master's courses offered in the US as well... I think they did one in Chicago and another in LA maybe?
> 
> Anyway, the impression I got is that KKW will work with a national/local TKD organization to put on a master's course, but the locals are expected to actually organize the thing and then KKW sends the teachers.


You are correct with Chicago but I think the other course was in Las Vegas not LA, I could be wrong. I took the course in Chicago. 
KKW puts a Lot of stock in the Korean GM's statewide who have kept strong ties. I think this is a reason for so few Master courses here.


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## andyjeffries (Nov 4, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Do you think that requiring the course to to promote students in KMS will be enough to change this?



I certainly think it's a good step in the right direction. We'll see


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

[


serietah said:


> ....Oh dear. #1, no, oh goodness no. #6 I didn't know until I started learning Korean. Now people don't understand me when I say it correctly because they think it's thai-kwondo lol. #4 is good. I see a lot of the X by the head in videos but we do the chambered hand on your shoulder, below the ear, and other hand straight out.
> 
> But #2 is pretty inconsistent. Our school owner doesn't teach it that way, but one master does and visiting masters we've had have done it as well. I don't teach students to go up on their toes, but I do it slightly when I do my own joonbi as its just a habit I've picked up from various masters who have taught me.
> 
> ...



I don’t understand this... From what I've been told, flexibility and strength go hand in hand. You can't have strength without flexibility and you can't have flexibility without strength.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> I don’t understand this... From what I've been told, flexibility and strength go hand in hand. You can't have strength without flexibility and you can't have flexibility without strength.


It’s entirely possible to do either of those. They are both more effective when they are both present.


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It’s entirely possible to do either of those. They are both more effective when they are both present.



Merely asserting it won't bring more insight. So a flexible person that struggles with strength usually fails at dynamic flexibility and conversely a strong person with mediocre flexibility excels at dynamic flexibility but struggles with static?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Merely asserting it won't bring more insight. So a flexible person that struggles with strength usually fails at dynamic flexibility and conversely a strong person with mediocre flexibility excels at dynamic flexibility but struggles with static?


I was just responding to your post, which seemed to assert it's not possible to develop strength without flexibility, nor vice-versa.

If no attention is given to flexibility, it's possible to develop strength in the specific exercises without good ROM. And if someone works hard on flexibility, they may have an impressive ROM (static, dynamic, or both) without ever developing any significant strength.


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I  And if someone works hard on flexibility, they may have an impressive ROM (static, dynamic, or both) without ever developing any significant strength.



What is your definition of strength in this regard?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What is your definition of strength in this regard?


An easy example would be lifting more weight in a specific exercise.


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> An easy example would be lifting more weight in a specific exercise.



Huh? This is about kicking as it relates to martial arts.


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## dvcochran (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> I don’t understand this... From what I've been told, flexibility and strength go hand in hand. You can't have strength without flexibility and you can't have flexibility without strength.


Not correct. You need to hang around with some body builders. Extremely stiff and inflexible. Gymnast on the other hand are extremely flexible. Almost unnatural at times.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Huh? This is about kicking as it relates to martial arts.


Kicking power and strength are two different things. The person you were replying to was talking about strength in (I assume) her legs.


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Not correct. You need to hang around with some body builders. Extremely stiff and inflexible. Gymnast on the other hand are extremely flexible. Almost unnatural at times.



That is a bad example since bodybuilders specialize in spamming isolation excersies, not functional strength training.


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Kicking power and strength are two different things. The person you were replying to was talking about strength in (I assume) her legs.


 
The person I was replying to claimed to have the appropriate flexibility yet could not kick head height, and claimed this was due to a lack of strength


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The person I was replying to claimed to have the appropriate flexibility yet could not kick head height, and claimed this was due to a lack of strength


That would be either a lack of leg or core strength then. But you're point that you need strength for flexibility, is untrue unless you're considering the _bare mininum _for strength, in which case that's true of ant activity.


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## Acronym (Nov 5, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That would be either a lack of leg or core strength then. But you're point that you need strength for flexibility, is untrue unless you're considering the _bare mininum _for strength, in which case that's true of ant activity.



It makes no sense how an actively training martial artist would lack strength for the very thing he trains for and that he tried for half a decade to correct, yet claims to be flexible.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It makes no sense how an actively training martial artist would lack strength for the very thing he trains for and that he tried for half a decade to correct, yet claims to be flexible.


So two things. 1: Serietah is a she. 2: I agree, but that's not what I was responding to. Just what strength is. 

I'm assuming like I said that it's a core issue, but I would think that could be fixed by now with core strength training unless there's also like a muscular/biological/medical issue going on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Huh? This is about kicking as it relates to martial arts.


Perhaps you meant power, rather than strength? If so, I'd agree that power and flexibility pretty much go together. I suppose it'd be possible to develop flexibility without any increase in power if technique is sloppy, but that's marginal.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high


If this is remotely true, then you head must be level with your hips or lower to get your foot head level. That is the only way it could work anatomically. The result would be a poor, dysfunction kick so, no you cannot do a head level kick.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That is a bad example since bodybuilders specialize in spamming isolation exercises, not functional strength training.


You are the one talking in absolutes. 
I think we can all agree there is a relationship between strength and flexibility within context. The same can be said for genetics and strength or genetics and flexibility, and strength or flexibility and lifestyle. The list goes on. 
We have had many people make the transition from dance training MA training. They are exceptionally flexible however it is a very different kind of flexibility. From years of training their body has been programmed to move certain way and hold certain positions. I have yet to meet a dancer that did not have a challenging time with footwork, punches and kicking geometry. 
Back to your argument, they are quite strong and very flexible. But when you but that in a different environment it doesn't account for very much.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> If this is remotely true, then you head must be level with your hips or lower to get your foot head level. That is the only way it could work anatomically. The result would be a poor, dysfunction kick so, no you cannot do a head level kick.


Not necessarily true. I have never been able to touch my toes while sitting (legs straight), and never got anywhere near a split. For many years, a side kick, round kick, or front kick to the head were fairly easy. My dynamic flexibility has always been MUCH better than my static.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not necessarily true. I have never been able to touch my toes while sitting (legs straight), and never got anywhere near a split. For many years, a side kick, round kick, or front kick to the head were fairly easy. My dynamic flexibility has always been MUCH better than my static.


I can see that. Factoring in momentum could allow for the leg to go higher. I would question to what degree of control a person would have over the member if counting on momentum to get the foot head level. The effective vs. non effective argument. 
In this context, do you think there is a higher probability of injury from over extension or out of control movements?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I can see that. Factoring in momentum could allow for the leg to go higher. I would question to what degree of control a person would have over the member if counting on momentum to get the foot head level. The effective vs. non effective argument.
> In this context, do you think there is a higher probability of injury from over extension or out of control movements?


Not necessarily for our-of-control movement, as it’s not really a momentum thing. Those kicks were easy for me. Overextension is a real issue when you are near your limits. I could kick perhaps 4-6” higher than my own head, so kicking at my head height left some room for error. But kicking higher (a taller person’s head) would have been too close to my limit.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Not necessarily true. I have never been able to touch my toes while sitting (legs straight), and never got anywhere near a split. For many years, a side kick, round kick, or front kick to the head were fairly easy. My dynamic flexibility has always been MUCH better than my static.


While I can still touch my toes, I never was able to get to a full split, despite almost daily stretching, yet, like you, was able to accurately kick to the head.  I am certain my pelvis was not constructed to do splits, but then how the head kicks?  Perhaps muscle powered momentum, along with relaxation and proper technique were responsible. 

Anyway, for me the question is moot as head kicks are no longer part of my bag of tools.  No great loss though, as my other tools and technique are well able to compensate.  Must admit that head kicks are useful in tournament competition to help spread out the opponent's defense (much like an occasional long pass in football) but not essential for non-TKD bouts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> While I can still touch my toes, I never was able to get to a full split, despite almost daily stretching, yet, like you, was able to accurately kick to the head.  I am certain my pelvis was not constructed to do splits, but then how the head kicks?  Perhaps muscle powered momentum, along with relaxation and proper technique were responsible.
> 
> Anyway, for me the question is moot as head kicks are no longer part of my bag of tools.  No great loss though, as my other tools and technique are well able to compensate.  Must admit that head kicks are useful in tournament competition to help spread out the opponent's defense (much like an occasional long pass in football) but not essential for non-TKD bouts.


My only theory has to do with antagonistic muscle relaxation. When a muscle is used, a relaxation signal is apparently sent to the antagonistic muscle, which signal would be absent in static stretch.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> My only theory has to do with antagonistic muscle relaxation. When a muscle is used, a relaxation signal is apparently sent to the antagonistic muscle, which signal would be absent in static stretch.


Very interesting. I have never heard that before. 
I am convinced excessive flexibility can be more dangerous to joints than a lack of flexibility. I have seen people with "dish rag" flexibility and you can see the over extension in their joints. Inevitably this will happen when a joint is loaded or weight bearing. Just cannot be good when done repeatedly.


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## granfire (Nov 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Very interesting. I have never heard that before.
> I am convinced excessive flexibility can be more dangerous to joints than a lack of flexibility. I have seen people with "dish rag" flexibility and you can see the over extension in their joints. Inevitably this will happen when a joint is loaded or weight bearing. Just cannot be good when done repeatedly.


It is.
once upon a time, I thought I should pick up dancing again (at the decrepit age of 19) 
one girl at the school was incredibly flexible, vs me, I have to stretch. Plenty.
She was maybe 20 or so. 
We talked about flexibility briefly. The hyper flexibility is a curse in disguise. You dent to dislocate joints more easily. 
Now, I did not stick it out long. 
The instructor expected his charges to be in pointe shoes (ohhhh, the pain) and do more than one class a week. 
But that stuck with me. 
I do not know if the young lady trained to control the joint movement or just dealt with the fallout.


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## WaterGal (Nov 9, 2020)

granfire said:


> It is.
> once upon a time, I thought I should pick up dancing again (at the decrepit age of 19)
> one girl at the school was incredibly flexible, vs me, I have to stretch. Plenty.
> She was maybe 20 or so.
> ...



Yeah, I read an article a while back about how female athletes are more likely than male athletes to get sports injuries like ACL tears and dislocations. Apparently it's because we have more laxity in our connective tissue than men, which is needed in order to make childbirth possible, and means that women can be more flexible on average, but.... that's exactly the downside.


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## granfire (Nov 9, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I read an article a while back about how female athletes are more likely than male athletes to get sports injuries like ACL tears and dislocations. Apparently it's because we have more laxity in our connective tissue than men, which is needed in order to make childbirth possible, and means that women can be more flexible on average, but.... that's exactly the downside.


and once you do give birth, the body doesn't go back all the way either


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 9, 2020)

granfire said:


> and once you do give birth, the body doesn't go back all the way either


You have to replace the bunjee cords every few years, or they don't snap back properly.


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## granfire (Nov 9, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You have to replace the bunjee cords every few years, or they don't snap back properly.


Apropos snap back....Where is The Hobbit?!


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 9, 2020)

granfire said:


> Apropos snap back....Where is The Hobbit?!


She's around. She hasn't been on MT much - the politicized talk about coronavirus turned her off and she didn't want to get banned for what she wanted to say.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 9, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> She's around. She hasn't been on MT much - the politicized talk about coronavirus turned her off and she didn't want to get banned for what she wanted to say.


Hmm that explains why you felt emboldened to reply in the belt bunnies thread...


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## Buka (Nov 9, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I read an article a while back about how female athletes are more likely than male athletes to get sports injuries like ACL tears and dislocations. Apparently it's because we have more laxity in our connective tissue than men, which is needed in order to make childbirth possible, and means that women can be more flexible on average, but.... that's exactly the downside.



As for the ACL tears, especially non contact ACL tears, it has to do with the structure of the hips on females. The structure allows the knees to turn in more. If you watch a young woman jog, who hasn't been taught anything about running, if you're behind her you're likely to see a kick out with each foot. That's where you get problems.

But you can train that out fairly quickly (few months) by doing lunges in front of a mirror. You'll notice the knee trying to turn in. So what you have the student do is extend her open, flat hand and place it alongside the inside of the knee, (towards the bottom of the lunge) and keep it there as a guide. Works really well. I learned about it at a symposium taught by ACL docs for women's sports.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 9, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I read an article a while back about how female athletes are more likely than male athletes to get sports injuries like ACL tears and dislocations. Apparently it's because we have more laxity in our connective tissue than men, which is needed in order to make childbirth possible, and means that women can be more flexible on average, but.... that's exactly the downside.



I think there is no doubt that women are, in general, naturally more flexible than guys for reasons given and perhaps others as well.  Re: injuries, while there are physiological reasons as noted, there may be a mental aspect to it as well.  Could it be that flexible women (and men) take their flexibility for granted and so may not exercise the same caution less stretchy humans do?

I had an experience at a tournament, stretching out (splits) before my match.  I was feeling good and relaxed.  But I took that feeling for granted and over-extended myself, tearing my hamstring.  So, perhaps the moral to this issue is, no matter how flexible you may be (or think you are) there is a limit you must be conscious of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 9, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Hmm that explains why you felt emboldened to reply in the belt bunnies thread...


She's very used to such comments.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 10, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I read an article a while back about how female athletes are more likely than male athletes to get sports injuries like ACL tears and dislocations. Apparently it's because we have more laxity in our connective tissue than men, .......


Some materials I read is that the Female hip angle   results in more knee stress and as a result ACL injuries for women.


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## dvcochran (Nov 10, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Some materials I read is that the Female hip angle   results in more knee stress and as a result ACL injuries for women.


I have read similar articles. More specifically in regards to flexibility but it supports the same theories. The articles make a big deal about how the length of the bone from the ball (ball & socket) to the large nodule that transitions to the Femur (hip bone I think?) has a lot to do with flexibility in either sex. It states women in general have a slightly different angle at the ball & socket relative to a vertical (standing) leg. This contributes to things like birthing ease, stretching/splits ease, and angular loading on the knees and feet leading to increased ACL tears. To me this jives with what @Buka and others have said. But I am sure as heck no doctor.


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## Acronym (Nov 12, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I read an article a while back about how female athletes are more likely than male athletes to get sports injuries like ACL tears and dislocations. Apparently it's because we have more laxity in our connective tissue than men, which is needed in order to make childbirth possible, and means that women can be more flexible on average, but.... that's exactly the downside.



Untrained women are on average more flexible than men when it comes to the hips. There is no dispute on this, and it is for the child bearing reasons.
Women also have greater body fat on their legs than men but they don't kick as hard regardless.

The reason for this is that technique can only account for power so much. There is a strength factor involved in the contraction and extraction phase.

It is believed that if men had the fat percentages of female legs, they would kick harder than they do with their male legs, assuming all else is equal.


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## Acronym (Nov 12, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> and means that women can be more flexible on average, but.... that's exactly the downside.



No that's not what it means, at least not in the context of martial arts. It only refers to baseline levels, which are irrelevant long-term once you start training.


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## Acronym (Nov 12, 2020)

One of the things that I tend to see with naturally flexible people is that they just flick their leg out there without thrusting their hip, and when you try and explain it they don't get it. I think they have this spoiled effect from superior flexibility that made them less attentive to proper hip thrusts.

So the less flexible person who had to thrust the hips since he/she started out, has an advantage in that he/she doesn't get anything for free. And this bodymechanic stays with him once the hips do loosen up. and as a result, he kicks harder


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Women also have greater body fat on their legs than men but they don't kick as hard regardless.
> .


IMO this is more a function of women generally having less mass than men as opposed to than anything else.   I have seen small women kick harder than a large percentage of men, and some large women with astonishing power.


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## Acronym (Nov 13, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> IMO this is more a function of women generally having less mass than men as opposed to than anything else.   I have seen small women kick harder than a large percentage of men, and some large women with astonishing power.



You can compare a male and female of the same weight, or even the female being bigger and she would still struggle to come close. It has to do with tensing and penetration.

And you can't use the speed argument since strength and fast twitch muscle excertion go hand in hand. How strong you are is in large part a function of how fast you can fast twitch. The other half is the size of the muscles. Which is is why a small person can be brutally strong if he can fast twitch very fast and a big person can be relatively weak because he cant tense very well.


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## Acronym (Nov 13, 2020)

Here is a female arm wrestling world champion using her entire body against a unskilled male who only uses his arm for the most part. 

She is in a war to get him down. And says afterwards that he would win every single time if he only used his body properly. 

That's the discrepencies we are talking about


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can compare a male and female of the same weight, or even the female being bigger and she would still struggle to come close. It has to do with tensing and penetration.
> 
> .


Suffice it to say my experience with women (    does not support your opinion.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 13, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Here is a female arm wrestling world champion using her entire body against a unskilled male who only uses his arm for the most part.


Where does it say their weights?


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## Acronym (Nov 17, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Where does it say their weights?



Doesn't matter since he isn't using it. She is using more weight than he is.


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## Acronym (Nov 17, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Suffice it to say my experience with women (    does not support your opinion.



I have encountered one outlier. A stocky female in boxing class hitting like a man on pads. Never in Taekwondo.


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