# Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?



## 7BallZ (Nov 23, 2015)

I was watching The Karate Kid series and indeed the film series portray just how abusive, fraudulent, and outright inaccurate teaachings of rival McDojos  Miyagi and Daniel faces. Don't even get me started how they take the rival school wars to ridiculous extent that it is already flatout entering illegal territory.

The SCARIEST and WORST part is some of the rival schools they faced are genuine winners of local tournaments and at least got the physical training aspect correct in many way s(although still dumbed down in that they lacked many components of classical training like weight lifting and killing techniques).

But this inspires me to ask. Why hadn't Western sports fighting arts-in particular boxing and wrestling- hadn't been plaqued with the "McDojo" phenomenon?

I mean in the 3rd Karate Kid Movie, Terry Silver was intentionally getting Daniel hurt by having him hit wooden planks. Although not necessarily McDojo teaching as real Asian martial arts does have this training of sorts and Terry himself easily demonstrated his technique in front of Daniel where he crushed the wooden planks and boards with single blows, Terry forced him into this phrase of martial arts training WITHOUT properly conditioning him first and teaching him proper mechanics. Now I'll grant that Terry was intentionally forcing Daniel to injure himself and wear him out with such training both to get back at him for destroying John Kreese's martial art career and so he'll be so torn form the training he'll loose the upcoming tournament. But both he and Kreese have done such acts before to students they were teaching but personally didn't like as shown in supplemental materials like the novelization.

In boxing gyms, wrestling classes, and western based weapon arts like fencing and archery (love even MMA classes) such acts of stupidity practically don't exist. Even "home" instruction by uncertified amateur hobbyist (who never fought a single professional fight or even weekend betting bouts for extra cash) you'd practically don't have to worry about getting your hand broken because your coach was telling you to hit trees with hooks to get stronger or because you were given poor-quality obviously damaged fencing protection and you got hit when you were sparring.

Not to mention even just some random amateur hobbyists who you met and decided pay to give you lessons weekend lessons will AT the very least know enough about boxing or other western fighting sports that they can easily give you a schedule of proper boxing or wrestling regime and can quickly show you in an instant how to properly hold a longbow and what exercises you'll need to do and HOW to execute them properly like a real army pushup in order to gradually develop the body needed for amateur competition level.

For Christ sake an old man who took boxing lessons when he was a teen but stopped once he went to college around 50 years ago who I personally know can get you into far superior shape and teach you proper punching mechanics than most "certified" blackbelts in practically every dojo I visited. We're talking a man who stopped getting involve with the sport in his 20s and only got into it recently last year!

In addition, rivalry schools and cult mentality are so rare in the boxing world (and the same applies to other fighting sports) that if you mention them to an instructor I'm guarantee you'll get laughter. In the various boxing tournaments I've been to and boxing instructors I've chatted with,they often tell me one of the reasons they aren't into the martial arts or left very young if they were into them years ago, was because of all that big dick waggering "my style is betta than yours!" and "I'm going to vandalize your dojos!" mentality so common in the subculture. I'm not too much into wrestling to give a say, but my fencing instructor himself (who competed in many tournaments  both nationally and internationally) states he is so disgusted with how Japanese kendo fighters and other obscure Asian style weapon masters are always bickering with each other and allt he known fights that happen in Asia between Dao fighters and Bo fighters, etc.

I mean with how lucrative western fighting arts are (Especially boxing), why is there no such abuse fraud, and "dojo wars' the way the martial arts world are rife with?

I mean even at the professional level, while illegal acts and shady people exist, you don't hear about a professional wrestling coach who won gold medals forcing a student to wear himself out with BS training like Terry Silver did in Karate Kid 3 so that he'll lose in the upcoming tournament to another wrestler (who the coach is secretly also teaching and has been in a longer stronger relationship with). You don't see pro-boxers getting a bunch of other students his coach was teaching and jumping someone else out of sadistic pleasure because they are taught that way in the gym the whole the Cobra Kai kids were repeatedly ganging up and beating Daniel Russo and other non-members of their dojos. Nor do you see practitioners of fencing going to gym locations late at night and vandailizing the gym so badly that it is practically useless the next day and thus it ruins their upcoming opponents fighting capabilities for the upcoming bout.

All of these things are so lovely common stuff that is involved with the McDojos. HELL even MMA gyms (including those with real life John Kreeses) don't get involved with such BS authoritarian personalities, cults, and illegal activities the way McDojos and Traditional Asian Martial Arts int he West do. The real life equivalents of John Kreeses I met wouldn't dare teach "mercy is for the weak" mentality the Cobra Kai espoused and in fact more often then not they try as much as possible to avoid students jumping other guys and other illegal stuff seen in Karate Kid. While from my experience many Traditional Martial Arts schools (McDojos) often encouraged stuff that would get their student locked up in due time and eventually gangraped int he prison showers.

What prevented Western fighting sports from getting such McDojoish tendencies? I mean have you seen the PPV payroll for boxers on HBO? With such millions of $$$ being thrown away, I'm surprised there isn't the same amount of McDojo boxing gyms the way TMAs suffer. Nor does wrestling, fencing, marksmanship,  HEMA, and archery suffer such problems. Even MMA (which has many instructors of dubious qualification) doesn't go into the amount of BS that martial arts inspired in the west.


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## kuniggety (Nov 23, 2015)

You touched on a lot of things in your post. I don't know if anyone really does vandalizism...?  Because that's straight up criminal but a huge difference in the Western fighting arts is that there is no "secrets". There's no being part of the inner club to learn the inner techniques, yadda yadda. There just "hey, we offer this" and you can go to a tournament and see how they fair. And that's a core thing... Many of the western arts are "ring" arts. There's nothing so "deadly" that they can't actually practice. They teach technique and step into the ring and beat each other senseless with it.

I hope that was intelligible... I'm kind of drunk at the moment...


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2015)

Western martial arts do suffer from it. But otherwise I would say because they don't do lineage. And all the baggage that comes with that.


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## Buka (Nov 23, 2015)

Contact training pulls back the curtain on the great and powerful Oz.


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## Hanzou (Nov 23, 2015)

Buka said:


> Contact training pulls back the curtain on the great and powerful Oz.



Exactly.






No mysticism involved, just pure skill.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2015)

Orcophile said:


> I was watching The Karate Kid series and indeed the film series portray just how abusive, fraudulent, and outright inaccurate teaachings of rival McDojos Miyagi and Daniel faces. Don't even get me started how they take the rival school wars to ridiculous extent that it is already flatout entering illegal territory.



You do know that this is fiction right? Getting mad at things that happen in a film is a bit over the top. Writers make things seem more extreme, more violent etc for entertainment purposes, it's called poetic licence.



Orcophile said:


> But this inspires me to ask. Why hadn't Western sports fighting arts-in particular boxing and wrestling- hadn't been plaqued with the "McDojo" phenomenon?



A good few have, human nature being what it is there's always someone out to rip people off, boxing and wrestling is no different, you won't hear about it as much on here because we don't tend to discuss boxing and wrestling as much as martial arts funnily enough.



Orcophile said:


> I mean in the 3rd Karate Kid Movie, Terry Silver was intentionally getting Daniel hurt by having him hit wooden planks. Although not necessarily McDojo teaching as real Asian martial arts does have this training of sorts and Terry himself easily demonstrated his technique in front of Daniel where he crushed the wooden planks and boards with single blows, Terry forced him into this phrase of martial arts training WITHOUT properly conditioning him first and teaching him proper mechanics. Now I'll grant that Terry was intentionally forcing Daniel to injure himself and wear him out with such training both to get back at him for destroying John Kreese's martial art career and so he'll be so torn form the training he'll loose the upcoming tournament. But both he and Kreese have done such acts before to students they were teaching but personally didn't like as shown in supplemental materials like the novelization




It's a film, a movie, it's not real, 'Daniel' and 'Kreese' are played by actors. It has little bearing on real life.



Orcophile said:


> In boxing gyms, wrestling classes, and western based weapon arts like fencing and archery (**** even MMA classes) such acts of stupidity practically don't exist. Even "home" instruction by uncertified amateur hobbyist (who never fought a single professional fight or even weekend betting bouts for extra cash) you'd practically don't have to worry about getting your hand broken because your coach was telling you to hit trees with hooks to get stronger or because you were given poor-quality obviously damaged fencing protection and you got hit when you were sparring.



You are judging real life places against fictional ones, it's not a real comparison. You are saying that 'such acts of stupidity don't exist', well they only existed in a work of fiction so I'm not sure what you are thinking here.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 23, 2015)

The question is valid.  I can't say that I know the answer, but I have an opinion on it.  What follows is that; my opinion.

1) Most organized western martial arts do not have a non-physical component that I am aware of.  That is, there is no 'do', there is only 'jutsu'.  Boxers learn to box, not to meditate.
2) Boxers can be compared to boxers.  Wrestlers to wrestlers.  A 'McDojo' type training facility would be quickly exposed as such because they people they trained would not be able to compete successfully.
3) Most western martial arts are sports.  Although of course one can learn to defend oneself quite effectively using boxing, wrestling, etc, skills, they are designed to be sports.  As such, they are subject to national and international organizations, rules, and so on, which establish bona fides to a great extent.

Eastern martial arts are all over the board.  Some are sports, some are not.  Some are more devoted to application, some more towards a way of life instead of simply learning a set of techniques.  You can't take a green belt student from one dojo and have them spar with a green belt student from another dojo and expect them to be even closely similar in ability, style, or technique.  Not only do individuals vary, not only do styles vary, but instruction varies.

Some have attempted to address problems like these by establishing governing bodies, which attempt to set standards, enforce rules, create uniformity in training, and so on.  Unfortunately, just as many (probably more) fake organizations have popped up, which pretend to do those things, but instead serve only to legitimize McDojos, leaving the average consumer confused as to what is legitimate and what is not.

Unfortunately, the unregulated nature of martial arts in general ensures that McDojos will flourish.  It is truly a case of 'caveat emptor'.  I see no way to resolve the issue in the current environment.  As a karateka, I am as legitimate as my instructor's faith in me, and his instructor's in him, and so on, back to our founder.  However, even if I put in the necessary time and effort to gain a teaching certificate from my instructor, there is nothing stopping anyone from declaring themselves a 11th Degree Black Belt with Strawberry Sprinkles and hanging out their shingle as Soke of their own system.  They may be teaching garbage, but there is precious little I can do about that.  There is no law or organization that can put a stop to the nauseating fake martial arts instruction.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 23, 2015)

The examples from the movies really aren't relevant. The Cobra-Kai wasn't a mcdojo. They were "bad guys", played up as cartoonish villians for the sake of the plot. Their misbehavior isn't typical of martial arts schools and isn't what most people mean by "mcdojo."

The "mcdojo" epithet is generally applied to schools that have poor quality instruction for inflated prices, generally with low standards for rank so that 8-year olds can be awarded black belts after their parents have paid ludicrous fees. Such a school would be highly unlikely to engage in "Cobra Kai" behavior, because the parents aren't likely to keep paying those steep fees if their kids are getting into fights.


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## lklawson (Nov 23, 2015)

As has been implied and flat stated several times now, the answer is basically, "because you can be challenged and if you're stuff don't hold up then it's clear to people who know what they're looking at."

The western arts have a very long tradition of trash talking and self promotion.  But they also have an equally long tradition of "put your money where your mouth is."

George Silver notably trashed the effete european sissy rapier in favor of a real man's British weapon, the basket hilted broadsword in his manuals.  And fencers were known to occasionally challenge each other to prove which "style" was better. My favorite is either the example are either the Navarez vs Quevedo duel or Bonetti vs. Bagger duel.

If you claim you know how to fight someone may ask you to prove it.  If you claim your style of fighting is better, someone will probably show up and ask you to prove it.  If you can't prove that you know how to fight, you lost your students so, frankly, most people claiming to be able to teach you how to fight knew how to fight.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 23, 2015)

lklawson said:


> If you claim you know how to fight someone may ask you to prove it.  If you claim your style of fighting is better, someone will probably show up and ask you to prove it.  If you can't prove that you know how to fight, you lost your students so, frankly, most people claiming to be able to teach you how to fight knew how to fight.



I have to respectfully disagree with this as it pertains to 'McDojos'.  Many exist, many make all sorts of claims, but no one one challenges them (these days), or takes them on in a physical altercation.  These days, people claim whatever they wish to claim, and it has no meaning and is subject to no test of legitimacy.

I also think that most students of McDojos would not quit in disgust if their instructor lost a fight anyway.  People train for all sorts of reasons, but some of those reasons that I'm aware of have little or nothing to do with being able to fight well.  Obtaining a belt or a certificate or some other recognition, trophies for the wall at home, even the opportunity to open one's own McDojo and earn a living; those are much more pressing than being able to fight for many.


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## lklawson (Nov 23, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with this as it pertains to 'McDojos'.  Many exist, many make all sorts of claims, but no one one challenges them (these days), or takes them on in a physical altercation.  These days, people claim whatever they wish to claim, and it has no meaning and is subject to no test of legitimacy.


I don't disagree with that as it pertains to many asian martial arts.  Western based martial arts still have a "put it on the mat" tradition which helps to preclude this phenomenon.  In this case, it's as much about what the tradition of the martial art is.  

BJJ and Judo have a similar tradition.  Schools are often selected by prospective students by whether or not their students have a solid track record of winning or whether or not their instructor(s) did.  BJJ schools, in particular, are quite jealous of their credentials and are quite happy to challenge (and humiliate) instructors falsifying BJJ credentials.

Again, it's what is the "tradition" of the art.  And martial arts of from the West have a long tradition of having to prove they're not bogus made up crap.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 23, 2015)

lklawson said:


> I don't disagree with that as it pertains to many asian martial arts.  Western based martial arts still have a "put it on the mat" tradition which helps to preclude this phenomenon.  In this case, it's as much about what the tradition of the martial art is.
> 
> BJJ and Judo have a similar tradition.  Schools are often selected by prospective students by whether or not their students have a solid track record of winning or whether or not their instructor(s) did.  BJJ schools, in particular, are quite jealous of their credentials and are quite happy to challenge (and humiliate) instructors falsifying BJJ credentials.
> 
> ...



Ah, now I understand.  Sorry, I was thinking 'McDojo' completely in the realm of 'karate' and karate-like training.  Which would actually lend credence to the point you were making.  I stand corrected, thanks.


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The examples from the movies really aren't relevant. The Cobra-Kai wasn't a mcdojo. They were "bad guys", played up as cartoonish villians for the sake of the plot. Their misbehavior isn't typical of martial arts schools and isn't what most people mean by "mcdojo."
> 
> The "mcdojo" epithet is generally applied to schools that have poor quality instruction for inflated prices, generally with low standards for rank so that 8-year olds can be awarded black belts after their parents have paid ludicrous fees. Such a school would be highly unlikely to engage in "Cobra Kai" behavior, because the parents aren't likely to keep paying those steep fees if their kids are getting into fights.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 23, 2015)

It's very hard to "fake it" in western systems because of the sparring and competition.  But that said I would argue that there is a slight equivalent, which is things like boxercise and cardio kickboxing.

There is however one big and important difference, those are not marketed as something they are not.  

With the eastern styles there is a lot of mysticism and nonsense that can be pushed on people.  Sparring can be avoided and as long as there is a good story to back it, people will believe all sorts of crazy ideas.  

Movies certainly don't help, we've all seen plenty of kung fu movies where the old master trains Jackie in some ridiculous way and turns him into a invincible fighting machine.  Western arts are based on results, so stupid crap doesn't slip in.  And at least up here amateur boxing, wrestling and fencing are all governed by provincial organizations which report to a national organization.  You have to go through official certification in order to coach them.  Anyone can open up a karate school, and because it's got that element of mysticism to it and expectation of "traditional" methods you can get away with all kids of crap.

The belt system only makes things worse IMO.  I'm all for a internal ranking system, but there is going to come a point where a coach needs to evolve themselves, and experiment.  I'm not saying a coach ever really outgrows the need for a coach themselves, but not in the I've been training 40 years and have to do exactly what this guy that has been training 50 years says and teach exactly what he tells me too and how because he has a candy cane belt.


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2015)

Weirdly with mma at least. It is a bit of a community between clubs. I am guessing because nobody really cares about mma except for those who do it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> The belt system only makes things worse IMO.  I'm all for a internal ranking system, but there is going to come a point where a coach needs to evolve themselves, and experiment.  I'm not saying a coach ever really outgrows the need for a coach themselves, but not in the I've been training 40 years and have to do exactly what this guy that has been training 50 years says and teach exactly what he tells me too and how because he has a candy cane belt.



I agree with everything you've said up to this point.  I don't have a problem with the belt system, but whether I did or did not, it's not going to go away, so one can object to it all they like; it's here to stay.

The problem, IMHO, is that non-martial artists tend to think that belts are an objective and/or external system of ranking, which we all understand they are not.


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## FriedRice (Nov 26, 2015)

What an excellent post and lots of good responses.

I   have no problem with people training TMA's to get in shape, as a hobby, self defense, Asian fetish, whatever....and never go hard on the sparring (up to KO sparring) and never wanting to compete in full contact competition for KO's. All of this is fine. Just realize that most Amateur level MMA fighters will beat the living crap out of them pretty easily in competition, on the streets, in prison cells, Mad Max Thunderdome to the death, etc.  

McDojoer's collecting different colored belts are fine with me. Most people aren't looking for risks of head injuries as part of their training. Collecting belts does exhibit a certain level of skills. Like in BJJ, there are awesome BJJ kids with a ton of medals and belts....but many of them will start crying like a baby when the other kid's hand accidentally slips off of a grip and smacks them in the face. Seen this so many times, it's funny.  Same goes with BJJ adults, all the way up to Black Belt. Not all can take punches to the face in a real fight, that's why some people only train BJJ. This can be said of Wrestlers who only wrestles, also.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 26, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> What an excellent post and lots of good responses.



Well, up until now, anyway...



> I   have no problem with people training TMA's to get in shape, as a hobby, self defense, Asian fetish, whatever....and never go hard on the sparring (up to KO sparring) and never wanting to compete in full contact competition for KO's. All of this is fine. Just realize that most Amateur level MMA fighters will beat the living crap out of them pretty easily in competition, on the streets, in prison cells, Mad Max Thunderdome to the death, etc.



Interesting point of view.  I think you are mistaken, but that's my point of view.

Of course, even assuming it was true, one has to wonder how often a person well-versed in a traditional martial art gets into a wild street fight with a person well-versed in MMA-style martial arts.  This happens a lot, does it?



> McDojoer's collecting different colored belts are fine with me. Most people aren't looking for risks of head injuries as part of their training. Collecting belts does exhibit a certain level of skills. Like in BJJ, there are awesome BJJ kids with a ton of medals and belts....but many of them will start crying like a baby when the other kid's hand accidentally slips off of a grip and smacks them in the face. Seen this so many times, it's funny.  Same goes with BJJ adults, all the way up to Black Belt. Not all can take punches to the face in a real fight, that's why some people only train BJJ. This can be said of Wrestlers who only wrestles, also.



I will say that the true 'McDojos', often described as business models that offer basic martial arts training of a sort and a guaranteed promotion system in exchange for money, might well fit this bill.  I was not aware of any 'McDojo' style BJJ dojos, but I guess they might exist.

It does appear to me, however, that you're conflating 'McDojo' with _'any traditional martial art that isn't MMA'._  You have to know that doesn't fly here.  First, because it only causes flame wars, and second, because it's stuff and nonsense.

TMA does not equal 'McDojo'.  I hope we're clear on that.

As to getting hit in the face and crying, I've suffered broken ribs, fingers, toes, and seen a couple of rather gruesome injuries on others to include teeth driven through lips on both sides, in and out, and I didn't see any crying.

Maybe they cry easily where you come from.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Matches like that are always great. Lots of fun


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## FriedRice (Nov 26, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, up until now, anyway...



boooooooooooooooooooo



> Interesting point of view.  I think you are mistaken, but that's my point of view.



I think you are mistaken, but that's my point of view.



> Of course, even assuming it was true, one has to wonder how often a person well-versed in a traditional martial art gets into a wild street fight with a person well-versed in MMA-style martial arts.  This happens a lot, does it?



Then maybe you should aim higher for the level of danger that you may encounter. 



> I will say that the true 'McDojos', often described as business models that offer basic martial arts training of a sort and a guaranteed promotion system in exchange for money, might well fit this bill.  I was not aware of any 'McDojo' style BJJ dojos, but I guess they might exist.



Can you show me about 10 of such McDojos that specifically states that someone would be guaranteed a promotion in a certain amount of time if they paid for it? Most will give you a range in time frame, but it's not guaranteed. Like BJJ, many people do ask how long to get to a Blue belt and most will answer: about 1-1.5 years  of dedicated training of at least 3x per week but not guaranteed. 



> It does appear to me, however, that you're conflating 'McDojo' with _'any traditional martial art that isn't MMA'._  You have to know that doesn't fly here.  First, because it only causes flame wars, and second, because it's stuff and nonsense.
> 
> TMA does not equal 'McDojo'.  I hope we're clear on that.



No, you are wrong and just making assumptions.



> As to getting hit in the face and crying, I've suffered broken ribs, fingers, toes, and seen a couple of rather gruesome injuries on others to include teeth driven through lips on both sides, in and out, and I didn't see any crying.
> 
> Maybe they cry easily where you come from.



Take a deep breath, count to 10 and try reading what I wrote again.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 26, 2015)

I'm sure there are some horrible schools that teach boxing and wrestling.
It's probably more difficult to get away with in boxing  and wrestling being that both have fewer working parts than martial arts.  When I say that I'm a boxer or a wrestler, then you can pretty have a good idea of what I do.   If I say that I'm a Martial Artist you'll still be just as clueless as you were before I told you that I do martial arts.


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## drop bear (Nov 27, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm sure there are some horrible schools that teach boxing and wrestling.
> It's probably more difficult to get away with in boxing  and wrestling being that both have fewer working parts than martial arts.  When I say that I'm a boxer or a wrestler, then you can pretty have a good idea of what I do.   If I say that I'm a Martial Artist you'll still be just as clueless as you were before I told you that I do martial arts.



Well you also just check out what fights they have won. Which will give you a fair indication of ability.


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## lklawson (Nov 30, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Can you show me about 10 of such McDojos that specifically states that someone would be guaranteed a promotion in a certain amount of time if they paid for it? Most will give you a range in time frame, but it's not guaranteed. Like BJJ, many people do ask how long to get to a Blue belt and most will answer: about 1-1.5 years  of dedicated training of at least 3x per week but not guaranteed.


I've seen them personally.  They never explicitly say in their advertising or handbook/manual.  But when you talk with the instructor there's a subtext of <wink><wink> and no one ever fails their tests.  They also often have sub-belt gradings.  "First Stripe Decided Yellow Belt."  Yes, I actually knew of someone with that rank.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 30, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm sure there are some horrible schools that teach boxing and wrestling.
> It's probably more difficult to get away with in boxing  and wrestling


More difficult?  Darn near impossible.  It's the competition thing that does it.  Schools that consistently field losers or gain a rep for producing sub-par competitors lose their students and financially die.  You just can't keep the doors open if people aren't paying and Catholic Priests aren't teaching boxing in the basement any more and the Y doesn't seem to want to have boxing classes like they used to.



> being that both have fewer working parts than martial arts.


It's not about the "working parts" it's about whether or not the general boxing/wrestling community can look at their students and say, "they know what they're doing and have solid fundamentals."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2015)

lklawson said:


> More difficult?  Darn near impossible.  It's the competition thing that does it.  Schools that consistently field losers or gain a rep for producing sub-par competitors lose their students and financially die.  You just can't keep the doors open if people aren't paying and Catholic Priests aren't teaching boxing in the basement any more and the Y doesn't seem to want to have boxing classes like they used to.
> 
> It's not about the "working parts" it's about whether or not the general boxing/wrestling community can look at their students and say, "they know what they're doing and have solid fundamentals."
> 
> ...



However the boxing club can hold it's own comps and produce 'winners', fight nights don't have to be registered with the ABA. There's a lot of unlicensed boxing nights where boxers from anywhere can fight, you just match up the not so good ones with the worst ones. If you run more than boxing club it's even easier especially if they are in different towns.

Christian unlicensed boxing


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## Koshiki (Dec 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> However the boxing club can hold it's own comps and produce 'winners', fight nights don't have to be registered with the ABA. There's a lot of unlicensed boxing nights where boxers from anywhere can fight, you just match up the not so good ones with the worst ones. If you run more than boxing club it's even easier especially if they are in different towns.
> 
> Christian unlicensed boxing



True, but I think it's still a good deal more difficult to stray into fantasy land when there's some spirited competition. You may not be quality, but at least you won't be as likely to expect completely non-functional methodologies to be a solid staple of your practice.


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## Tez3 (Dec 1, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> True, but I think it's still a good deal more difficult to stray into fantasy land when there's some spirited competition. You may not be quality, but at least you won't be as likely to expect completely non-functional methodologies to be a solid staple of your practice.



No, you just end up with brain damaged 'fighters.


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## Koshiki (Dec 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> No, you just end up with brain damaged 'fighters.



That too.


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## elder999 (Dec 1, 2015)

Who says they don't?

LA Boxing Looks To Cash In On Popularity Of MMA


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Who says they don't?
> 
> LA Boxing Looks To Cash In On Popularity Of MMA


I think they are going after the Gym Junkies who like to exercise all the time and pump weights.
The same thing that she is doing with kung fu is the same thing he's going to do with boxing and MMA.  Turn it into a fitness class





LOL I couldn't resist because kung fu just gets associated with the worst lol.  But seriously. This is what LA Boxing looks like





My guess is that they imitate the moves more so than having an understanding of the moves and techniques such as knowing when to throw them, what to look out for, and how to protect your head.  They will be fit, but not fit like a fighter, nor will they have the heart, focus, or warrior mentality that fighters have.  They could train hard for 4 years and they would be less than a real boxing beginner with 3-6 months of training with some sparring under their belt.

After more research LA Boxing was bought out by UFC Gym in 2013


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## TSDTexan (Dec 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


>


Ya.. I shared this a few months back.


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## TSDTexan (Dec 13, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree with everything you've said up to this point.  I don't have a problem with the belt system, but whether I did or did not, it's not going to go away, so one can object to it all they like; it's here to stay.
> 
> The problem, IMHO, is that non-martial artists tend to think that belts are an objective and/or external system of ranking, which we all understand they are not.



Bill,
As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.

However, as belt oriented , JMA and KMAs have made their way west... a lot of finer points get lost in transit. In the west, the belt is viewed as something the student has "earned" and with it a measure of implied ability.

I almost want to toss belts altogether and break up the curriculum into either semesters or trimesters,  and test on established test dates quarterly (2 primaries, and two makeup dates)
And then rank by year and half year completions.

The biggest issue, imo, is that the belts generally (in many systems) don't translate into applied real world fighting skill due to broken teaching methodology.


----------



## Paul_D (Dec 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> most Amateur level MMA fighters will beat the living crap out of them pretty easily in on the streets



Do you have links to show where you are getting this information from?


----------



## elder999 (Dec 13, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Bill,
> As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.
> .



Actually, the belts* are *for _students_-so higher ranked students can recognize the knowledge and ability level of their fellow students, and train with them accordingly-though there were originally, in Judo, only white belts and black belts, with the colored belts being added later by foreign practitioners

I'd venture that as a teacher, you could put white belts on fifty students of varying levels of knowledge and ability, and I could pretty well sort most of them out to where they were in belt level/years of study, though maybe not before some of them hurt each other for not knowing...at a glance.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 13, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Bill,
> As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.
> 
> However, as belt oriented , JMA and KMAs have made their way west... a lot of finer points get lost in transit. In the west, the belt is viewed as something the student has "earned" and with it a measure of implied ability.
> ...



They don't translate because people are different. Teaching is different. Standards do not exist. Probably never will.

And I did not earn my rank. I was entrusted with it. Very different concept, and it means it is an ongoing relationship and conversation.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 14, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Bill,
> As I tell my students that belt is to (at a glance) show a teacher where the student has progressed in learning the curriculum. Therefore, the belt is for the teacher not the student.


Sure they are.  They help a student understand what is required to progress in the system, where he stands in understanding and skill in relationship to other students who he may need to help teach or learn from, and gives him goals to work toward.

Belts are for everyone.



> However, as belt oriented , JMA and KMAs have made their way west...


The system isn't belt oriented, *humans* are.  Humans *NEED* a way to measure their progress and compare themselves against their fellows.  It is an inherent psychological trait.  Any teacher or system who doesn't recognize that and give the students and outlet or method for measuring themselves is engaging in self delusion.  Systems which do not have progress grades ("belts," levels, or ranks) are heavily focused on competition.  Boxing and Wrestling are two prime examples.  There are even hybrid types such as modern Boxe Francaise which has Glove "levels" both based on skill and on competition.



> a lot of finer points get lost in transit. In the west, the belt is viewed as something the student has "earned" and with it a measure of implied ability.


Just as it is everywhere else.



> I almost want to toss belts altogether and break up the curriculum into either semesters or trimesters,  and test on established test dates quarterly (2 primaries, and two makeup dates)
> And then rank by year and half year completions.


<shrug>  You'll still be achieving the exact same thing in the minds of the students.

There's always a "ranking" method.  If there isn't then the students will figure out a way to do it themselves, even if it means going out on friday night and picking fights.



> The biggest issue, imo, is that the belts generally (in many systems) don't translate into applied real world fighting skill due to broken teaching methodology.


The two aren't directly related and I don't believe that they were intended to be.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Dec 14, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And I did not earn my rank. I was entrusted with it. Very different concept, and it means it is an ongoing relationship and conversation.


Don't think of it as a "rank."  Think of it as a "grade."  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 14, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Don't think of it as a "rank."  Think of it as a "grade."
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I'm military.  Can't help it.


----------



## TSDTexan (Dec 14, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm military.  Can't help it.


Exactly.  So many of the MA brought back to the US were learned by GIs. 

Belt = Rank is written into the school subculture of oh so many schools. Because this was the attitude of the teachers/dojo founders.


----------



## TSDTexan (Dec 14, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Don't think of it as a "rank."  Think of it as a "grade."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


This is actually my thought. 
The life of grading falls roughly into something like:
Underclassmen, classmen, senior classmen, junior instructors, instructor, masters, and professors.


----------



## TSDTexan (Dec 14, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> They don't translate because people are different. Teaching is different. Standards do not exist. Probably never will.
> 
> And I did not earn my rank. I was entrusted with it. Very different concept, and it means it is an ongoing relationship and conversation.



Great view.


----------



## TSDTexan (Dec 14, 2015)

Part of the issue with belt ranking culture that came as a result of Dr. J. Kano's Judo belts was the spreading of dan belt advancement by supreme performance in competition.

Much like Shogo player rankings (Where the better your game performance "wins" history translated into higher ranking)

Kano allowed for one dan rank advancement, within a single night, if you could pull off some specif criteria at the official kodakan tournaments.

It is said in very early kodakan history, this was the only way to get your shodan because some teachers refused to promote by teacher awarded ranking.

The mindset of battle is required for the chance of promoting, was a real thing in different places of Japan back then.

So, in Judo... the attitude of earning rank became a semicommon thing. There were a lot of cross training Martial Artists who studied Judo. This attitude did migrate into other arts. While not pervasive, it did exist. And a lot of American servicemen did bring home this view, with their arts.


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## Urban Trekker (Oct 10, 2021)

Two reasons:

1.  Hollywood portrayal of the arts.  I think what attracts people to eastern martial arts is what they see in the movies; such as beating up multiple attackers armed with knives, chains, baseball bats, etc.  And if people really think they can learn how to do this stuff, there's always going to be someone who will try and profit from it.  Have you ever seen a movie where a boxer does any of this?  Me neither.

2.  Getting back to the Karate Kid, Cobra Kai is not a McDojo.  They're actually learning Tang Soo Do, and Kreese isn't trying to be rich (Terry Silver is willing to GIVE Kreese as much money as he wants, but Kreese doesn't take "handouts." He's stated this).  However, I think that Karate Kid is an example a very racist view that Western audiences have toward far East Asians: in this case, that elderly Asian men are sages who constantly speak ancient words of wisdom.  There's also the fact that Mr. Miyagi spoke very broken English, despite having been in the US for nearly 50 years as of the time setting of the movie.  This isn't to say that it's impossible for a speaker of a second language to still have an accent after 50 years, but they'll definitely be speaking in complete sentences in a tiny fraction of that time.  I'm aware that Pat Morita was born in the us, however, he does have an accent - and if he spoke as he normally did when playing Mr. Miyagi, Pat Morita's speech actually would have been in line with how a Japanese/Okinawan immigrant who had been in the US for 50 years would have spoken.  Problem is, he wouldn't have been viewed as a "wise sage" if his English was that good.  Throw in things like his ancient technique for healing Danny's broken leg in the locker room (which was never questioned by Western audiences), and you'll see why McDojos are able to thrive in the case of Eastern martial arts.  I suppose you could say that there is a parallel to martial arts in medicine.  For example, there's "Western medicine" (and I put that in quotations, because I'm not certain that all OTC and prescription medications we're familiar with were developed in Western countries), and then there's alternative medicine - which is typically associated with the East.  Westerners who partake in alternative medicine believe that their healing properties are effective in ways that cannot be explained by science, as opposed to "Western medicine" which can.

Western martial arts are never portrayed this way in Hollywood, and our proximity to and familiarity with Western martial arts wouldn't allow us to view them that way, even if Hollywood attempted to portray them as such.

This isn't to say that Western martial arts aren't made out to be more than what they really are on TV and the movies.  For example, professional wrestling is really catch-as-catch-can portrayed by actors, and the real form of it doesn't look anywhere near as cool.  Also, Evander Holyfield has stated that if an actual boxing match had gone down the way it does in any of the Rocky movies (not just Rocky IV), at least one fighter would be dead very early on.

However, big difference is that it's not the intention of the writers and producers to make boxing and wrestling out to be something that they're not.  It's for dramatic effect.  If, for example, the fights in the Rocky franchise looked exactly like real boxing matches, the movies wouldn't have been nearly as good, in fact, they probably wouldn't have been good at all.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 12, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Western martial arts are never portrayed this way in Hollywood, and our proximity to and familiarity with Western martial arts wouldn't allow us to view them that way, even if Hollywood attempted to portray them as such.


Rarely so.  The Don Diego (Hopkins) in the 1998 Mask of Zoro is sort of presented as a wise teacher with arcane training methods.  There are a (very) few other examples but you are right that they are rare.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 12, 2021)

lklawson said:


> As has been implied and flat stated several times now, the answer is basically, "because you can be challenged and if you're stuff don't hold up then it's clear to people who know what they're looking at."
> 
> The western arts have a very long tradition of trash talking and self promotion.  But they also have an equally long tradition of "put your money where your mouth is."
> 
> ...


Well said, challenges like these still occur. My Sifu was generally a patient man, never test the patience of a patient man.  This kind of stuff can get out of hand quickly. Sifu Woo also told me a few stories of this kind, everybody loves to hear about it, but real people got seriously injured.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Rarely so.  The Don Diego (Hopkins) in the 1998 Mask of Zoro is sort of presented as a wise teacher with arcane training methods.  There are a (very) few other examples but you are right that they are rare.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Have you all seen Rocky lately?  Burgess Meredith had Rocky chasing chickens, for pete's sake. If he's not the wise teacher with arcane trainig methods, I don't know who is. 

I think part of this is that the same things happen in Hollywood with Western combat, it just looks different because it's, well, Western.  There is a lot of gun-fu type stuff, a la Matrix, John Wick, Nobody... going back to Equilibrium.  Also, a lot of similar phenomenon in movies like the Bourne series.  Some good stuff if you go back and look at King Arthur stories and movies, too...  I mean, Merlin.  Am I right?


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> Have you all seen Rocky lately?  Burgess Meredith had Rocky chasing chickens, for pete's sake. If he's not the wise teacher with arcane trainig methods, I don't know who is.
> 
> I think part of this is that the same things happen in Hollywood with Western combat, it just looks different because it's, well, Western.  There is a lot of gun-fu type stuff, a la Matrix, John Wick, Nobody... going back to Equilibrium.  Also, a lot of similar phenomenon in movies like the Bourne series.  Some good stuff if you go back and look at King Arthur stories and movies, too...  I mean, Merlin.  Am I right?



Yeah, but those movies tend to be in the sci-fi and/or fantasy genre, unlike Karate Kid.  Or Bruce Lee or most Jean Claude Van Damme movies.  So when someone watches the Matrix or any of the other movies you mentioned, they don't walk out of the theater believing that they can actually learn how to do that stuff.

Except for the "Jedi-ism" crowd.  But they're a bunch of weirdos.


----------



## geezer (Oct 13, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> ...Except for the "Jedi-ism" crowd.  But they're a bunch of weirdos.


As a proud weirdo, I'm insulted by that remark!


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yeah, but those movies tend to be in the sci-fi and/or fantasy genre, unlike Karate Kid.  Or Bruce Lee or most Jean Claude Van Damme movies.  So when someone watches the Matrix or any of the other movies you mentioned, they don't walk out of the theater believing that they can actually learn how to do that stuff.
> 
> Except for the "Jedi-ism" crowd.  But they're a bunch of weirdos.



Exept the jedi-ism crowd suffers less from McDojo mentality that your average RSBD guy.

If you are good at ludo sports. You are better than someone who isn't good at it.


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## Urban Trekker (Oct 14, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Exept the jedi-ism crowd suffers less from McDojo mentality that your average RSBD guy.
> 
> If you are good at ludo sports. You are better than someone who isn't good at it.


I remember watching a video on the Art of One Dojo, where he was explaining the difference between Bullshido and McDojo.  I remember him saying something to the effect that if the owner actually believes in his own bullshido, then it's not a McDojo.

I suppose it's sort of like the difference between 1) bulls***ting, 2) talking out of your a**, and 3) lying.  You actually have to know what you're talking about in order to be capable of lying.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 14, 2021)

FriedRice said:


> What an excellent post and lots of good responses.
> 
> I   have no problem with people training TMA's to get in shape, as a hobby, self defense, Asian fetish, whatever....and never go hard on the sparring (up to KO sparring) and never wanting to compete in full contact competition for KO's. All of this is fine. Just realize that most Amateur level MMA fighters will beat the living crap out of them pretty easily in competition, on the streets, in prison cells, Mad Max Thunderdome to the death, etc.
> 
> McDojoer's collecting different colored belts are fine with me. Most people aren't looking for risks of head injuries as part of their training. Collecting belts does exhibit a certain level of skills. Like in BJJ, there are awesome BJJ kids with a ton of medals and belts....but many of them will start crying like a baby when the other kid's hand accidentally slips off of a grip and smacks them in the face. Seen this so many times, it's funny.  Same goes with BJJ adults, all the way up to Black Belt. Not all can take punches to the face in a real fight, that's why some people only train BJJ. This can be said of Wrestlers who only wrestles, also.


Good point about BJJ. I studied it for a while, but I kept thinking, "I may be losing this roll, but all the stuff the rules don't allow, like punching, kneeing, gouging, finger breaking, groin grabbing, etc. are exactly what I would be doing right now if this were a real fight.

Also, if I am on the ground, my #1 goal is to get off the ground, not stay there and roll. The technical stand up was the most important thing I learned. I actually learned some good ways to get out of a roll in another training. That did involve striking.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Good point about BJJ. I studied it for a while, but I kept thinking, "I may be losing this roll, but all the stuff the rules don't allow, like punching, kneeing, gouging, finger breaking, groin grabbing, etc. are exactly what I would be doing right now if this were a real fight.


This is why for those of us who study BJJ as a martial art and not just a sport, it's important to regularly practice with striking involved and not just pure grappling all the time. (Once you reach a certain level of control and trust with your partner you can add in simulated eye gouges, head butts, biting, groin grabs, etc as well as actually applying "dirty" tactics like hair pulling and finger twisting, but I won't let my beginning students play with those.) The good news is that even pure sport application is primarily about controlling position and the more dominant your position the bigger advantage you have in applying  punching, kneeing, gouging, finger breaking, groin grabbing, etc.


jmf552 said:


> Also, if I am on the ground, my #1 goal is to get off the ground, not stay there and roll.


In general, that's a reasonable approach. What I teach my students is that what they really want is to be the person who decides and controls where the fight will occur - standing or on the ground. That's why I often have them go through sparring sessions starting on the ground with one partner on top, then the bottom partner's objective is to stand up safely while the top partner's objective is to keep them down, stay on top, and either land strikes or submissions, depending on what we're focusing on that day.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's why I often have them go through sparring sessions starting on the ground with one partner on top, then the bottom partner's objective is to stand up safely while the top partner's objective is to keep them down, stay on top, and either land strikes or submissions, depending on what we're focusing on that day.


This really took me back to my Roman-Greco wrestling days in High school & college. One round both people up, one round starting on the bottom, one round starting on the top. 
I do not have an issue with being on the bottom or on the ground but my tendency was always to break away and stand. I think that was because I was more agile and fast rather than having an excess of strength. I was kind of gumby so could play the leverage game pretty good but I could shoot a leg and take them down better. 

If they were my height or shorter and used the classic wrestlers stance or were shooting a lot I had good success with an over grab around the armpit and head. I would then roll both of us while standing and land on top with their back down. Got several quick pins that way. 
Good times.


----------



## cane56 (Oct 14, 2021)

7BallZ said:


> I was watching The Karate Kid series and indeed the film series portray just how abusive, fraudulent, and outright inaccurate teaachings of rival McDojos  Miyagi and Daniel faces. Don't even get me started how they take the rival school wars to ridiculous extent that it is already flatout entering illegal territory.
> 
> The SCARIEST and WORST part is some of the rival schools they faced are genuine winners of local tournaments and at least got the physical training aspect correct in many way s(although still dumbed down in that they lacked many components of classical training like weight lifting and killing techniques).
> 
> ...


I'd like to first point you to David Letterman, on YouTube. Look up Mouse Strauss. Hahahahaha, before computers who were you watching fight?

Dojo wars were very common. Jon Balet, Roger Carpenter no holds bar, century 2 Wichita Ks. This was caused by Jon spear handing Roger in the eye after a competition. We also might remember Count Dante, and the murder in Chicago at another Dojo. Mcdojo, is a creation when ppl started being crybabies in Dojos. You will never know if you can defend yourself unless you have taken a shot.


----------



## cane56 (Oct 14, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This is why for those of us who study BJJ as a martial art and not just a sport, it's important to regularly practice with striking involved and not just pure grappling all the time. (Once you reach a certain level of control and trust with your partner you can add in simulated eye gouges, head butts, biting, groin grabs, etc as well as actually applying "dirty" tactics like hair pulling and finger twisting, but I won't let my beginning students play with those.) The good news is that even pure sport application is primarily about controlling position and the more dominant your position the bigger advantage you have in applying  punching, kneeing, gouging, finger breaking, groin grabbing, etc.
> 
> In general, that's a reasonable approach. What I teach my students is that what they really want is to be the person who decides and controls where the fight will occur - standing or on the ground. That's why I often have them go through sparring sessions starting on the ground with one partner on top, then the bottom partner's objective is to stand up safely while the top partner's objective is to keep them down, stay on top, and either land strikes or submissions, depending on what we're focusing on that day.


I wish I would have gotten into the Brazilian jiu jitsu but it wasn't around. But I did take kodokan goshin jutsu, where we practiced strikes and ground grappling. We were taught and practiced hair pulling, but not to a full fight scenario. But where the head goes the body will follow. This was very important to Gracie in one of the first UFC matches.


----------



## Steve (Oct 14, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This really took me back to my Roman-Greco wrestling days in High school & college. One round both people up, one round starting on the bottom, one round starting on the top.
> I do not have an issue with being on the bottom or on the ground but my tendency was always to break away and stand. I think that was because I was more agile and fast rather than having an excess of strength. I was kind of gumby so could play the leverage game pretty good but I could shoot a leg and take them down better.
> 
> If they were my height or shorter and used the classic wrestlers stance or were shooting a lot I had good success with an over grab around the armpit and head. I would then roll both of us while standing and land on top with their back down. Got several quick pins that way.
> Good times.


You were shooting legs in greco-roman wrestling?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2021)

Steve said:


> You were shooting legs in greco-roman wrestling?


Yep.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2021)

Steve said:


> You were shooting legs in greco-roman wrestling?





dvcochran said:


> Yep.


I thought one of the distinguishing features of Greco-Roman, as opposed to freestyle or folkstyle, is that leg holds are forbidden?


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 14, 2021)

7BallZ said:


> I was watching The Karate Kid series and indeed the film series portray just how abusive, fraudulent, and outright inaccurate teaachings of rival McDojos  Miyagi and Daniel faces. Don't even get me started how they take the rival school wars to ridiculous extent that it is already flatout entering illegal territory.
> 
> The SCARIEST and WORST part is some of the rival schools they faced are genuine winners of local tournaments and at least got the physical training aspect correct in many way s(although still dumbed down in that they lacked many components of classical training like weight lifting and killing techniques).
> 
> ...



Because it's real, not theoretical.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I remember watching a video on the Art of One Dojo, where he was explaining the difference between Bullshido and McDojo.  I remember him saying something to the effect that if the owner actually believes in his own bullshido, then it's not a McDojo.
> 
> I suppose it's sort of like the difference between 1) bulls***ting, 2) talking out of your a**, and 3) lying.  You actually have to know what you're talking about in order to be capable of lying.



Technically bullshido is just garbage training.

And a McDojo is a money making scheme.

So they can be independent of each other.


----------



## Buka (Oct 14, 2021)

cane56 said:


> I'd like to first point you to David Letterman, on YouTube. Look up Mouse Strauss. Hahahahaha, before computers who were you watching fight?
> 
> Dojo wars were very common. Jon Balet, Roger Carpenter no holds bar, century 2 Wichita Ks. This was caused by Jon spear handing Roger in the eye after a competition. We also might remember Count Dante, and the murder in Chicago at another Dojo. Mcdojo, is a creation when ppl started being crybabies in Dojos. You will never know if you can defend yourself unless you have taken a shot.


If I remember correctly, it started because Bal'ee was bad mouthing Roger and saying he had beaten him in a fight. Roger called him on it, and the rest is history. I heard it was a nasty beating.

I miss Roger Carpenter, he was a  really good man and one hell of a Martial Artist. He helped me a lot when I was young.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I thought one of the distinguishing features of Greco-Roman, as opposed to freestyle or folkstyle, is that leg holds are forbidden?


Maybe my terminology is .wrong. We would shoot for the lead leg, stand back up and walk them (front or back) into a takedown.
It was always called 'shooting the leg'. I can still hear my coach scream it from the sideline.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 14, 2021)

Hmmm ?!?

Back in the 00's one couldn't throw a rock without hitting a new MMA Gym.
They would pop up and be gone in 6 to 18 months. 
Usually because all they were , were just a person looking for people to tap out and or hurt or both. 

It happens just in a different method or way. 

When a local Boxer makes it big  have also noticed all the local Gyms promote Boxing to get all the local hype and new people in. 
Is this bad to get their money just for a few months, and interrupt your serious trainers ?
Or should they just keep quiet or stick with their local already existing marketing?


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## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Maybe my terminology is .wrong. We would shoot for the lead leg, stand back up and walk them (front or back) into a takedown.
> It was always called 'shooting the leg'. I can still hear my coach scream it from the sideline.


Is it possible you were competing in freestyle wrestling?  Prohibition against attacking your opponent's legs or using your own is the biggest difference between Greco-Roman wrestling and other styles such as folk wrestling or freestyle wrestling.  Even inadvertently grasping your opponent's legs is a foul.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> Is it possible you were competing in freestyle wrestling?  Prohibition against attacking your opponent's legs or using your own is the biggest difference between Greco-Roman wrestling and other styles such as folk wrestling or freestyle wrestling.  Even inadvertently grasping your opponent's legs is a foul.


This is curious for me. It was in the early & mid 80,s and, as I recall, it was always called it Roman-Greco. But looking at Google, Folkstyle seems to be the common name for high school and college.  
I know for certain we would shoot so it follows that it is not Roman-Greco. 
I leaned something new.


----------



## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This is curious for me. It was in the early & mid 80,s and, as I recall, it was always called it Roman-Greco. But looking at Google, Folkstyle seems to be the common name for high school and college.
> I know for certain we would shoot so it follows that it is not Roman-Greco.
> I leaned something new.


Maybe.  For what it's worth, I've never heard the term "Roman Greco" before.  That's a new one for me.  Folkstyle and freestyle wrestling are very similar.  I'm guilty of using the two terms interchangeably, which is probably a bad habit. 

But hopefully we can all agree that it's all BJJ (if it works).


----------



## lklawson (Oct 15, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Technically bullshido is just garbage training.
> 
> And a McDojo is a money making scheme.
> 
> So they can be independent of each other.


Technically, these are all made-up words that don't exist in the Dictionary.  They mean whatever the person using them want them to mean, just like "crapling."

Maybe someday there will be an actual definition but until then, they don't "technically" mean anything.


----------



## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Technically, these are all made-up words that don't exist in the Dictionary.  They mean whatever the person using them want them to mean, just like "crapling."
> 
> Maybe someday there will be an actual definition but until then, they don't "technically" mean anything.



I think you have it completely backwards.  Words are added to the dictionary because they are understood and have accepted meanings.  They aren't invented by the editors.  They are simply codified.  

I was pleased to note that the OED finally (FINALLY) included Dutch Baby in September, 2021 despite meaning something specific since the 1940s.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think you have it completely backwards.  Words are added to the dictionary because they are understood and have accepted meanings.  They aren't invented by the editors.  They are simply codified.
> 
> I was pleased to note that the OED finally (FINALLY) included Dutch Baby in September, 2021 despite meaning something specific since the 1940s.


"*They mean whatever the person using them want them to mean*, just like 'crapling.'

*Maybe someday there will be an actual definition but until then*, they don't 'technically' mean anything."


----------



## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> "*They mean whatever the person using them want them to mean*, just like 'crapling.'
> 
> *Maybe someday there will be an actual definition but until then*, they don't 'technically' mean anything."


I think* you have it completely backwards. *Words are added to the dictionary *because they are understood and have accepted meanings.* They aren't invented by the editors. They are simply codified.

Did I do that right? 

Are you baffled when someone says "bullshido" or "crappling" to you?  Does it completely confuse you?  I would expect you would have a pretty darn good idea what they mean.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think* you have it completely backwards. *Words are added to the dictionary *because they are understood and have accepted meanings.* They aren't invented by the editors. They are simply codified.


No, I don't have it backwards unless you do too, because I am saying something close to what you are.



Steve said:


> Did I do that right?


I wouldn't know.  According to my wife I'm never right.




Steve said:


> Are you baffled when someone says "bullshido" or "crappling" to you?  Does it completely confuse you?  I would expect you would have a pretty darn good idea what they mean.


Well, this part of the thread is going on because there seems to be some confusion or lack of consensus between Dropbear and 'Treker about the difference between the <cough> 'words' of "bullshido" and "mcdojo."  And it's not like OED is going to say that the one is right and the other wrong.  So, yeah, these 'terms" are not exactly set in stone; far less so than even the somewhat flexible and evolving nature of English is.

I therefore content that "bullshido" and "mcdojo" kinda mean whatever the user wants them to mean, within a certain fairly broad context of "bad martial arts."  And Dropbear certainly can't say with any particular authority that "technically" one means x and the other means y.  At least for now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> No, I don't have it backwards unless you do too, because I am saying something close to what you are





lklawson said:


> I wouldn't know.  According to my wife I'm never right.


You and me both.  It's the cross we bear.



lklawson said:


> Well, this part of the thread is going on because there seems to be some confusion or lack of consensus between Dropbear and 'Treker about the difference between the <cough> 'words' of "bullshido" and "mcdojo."  And it's not like OED is going to say that the one is right and the other wrong.  So, yeah, these 'terms" are not exactly set in stone; far less so than even the somewhat flexible and evolving nature of English is.
> 
> I therefore content that "bullshido" and "mcdojo" kinda mean whatever the user wants them to mean, within a certain fairly broad context of "bad martial arts."  And Dropbear certainly can't say with any particular authority that "technically" one means x and the other means y.  At least for now.
> 
> ...


Okay.  I hear you.  I think what I'm reacting to here is how arbitrary your comment seems to me.  Why those terms in this thread?

If you think these terms, which I think are pretty concrete overall, can mean anything, that doesn't bode well for discussions on things like sport, traditional, self defense, martial art, or any of the various terms used around here that often cause confusion in spite of being found in the dictionary.  Shoot, there are some dudes around here who have some squirrelly ideas about what "experience" means, and one person tried to parse out a difference between "having experience with" and "being experienced."  When he pulled that one out, I just gave up.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 15, 2021)

Maybe you're both right. Words get added to the dictionary when they've become widely accepted and their meaning generally understood. But until that time they can be considered in flux, and the meaning can change drastically between the time a word is first used and it's meaning being codified in a dictionary.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> You and me both.  It's the cross we bear.
> 
> 
> Okay.  I hear you.  I think what I'm reacting to here is how arbitrary your comment seems to me.  Why those terms in this thread?


Meh.  I guess I just got a wild hair.



Steve said:


> If you think these terms, which I think are pretty concrete overall, can mean anything, that doesn't bode well for discussions on things like sport, traditional, self defense, martial art, or any of the various terms used around here that often cause confusion in spite of being found in the dictionary.  Shoot, there are some dudes around here who have some squirrelly ideas about what "experience" means, and one person tried to parse out a difference between "having experience with" and "being experienced."  When he pulled that one out, I just gave up.


You're right, those terms are often disputed and I've weighed in myself on some of them, ranging from "sport" through "traditional."  And, yeah, they often mean different things to different people.  A TKD guy might think one thing when he hear's "traditional" and a koryu heavy person might think something else.  ...and these are terms that have a lot more history than "bullshido" and "mcdojo."  I think the term "McDojo" is only about 20 years old or less and "Bullshido" is even younger and neither seem to have a universally agreed on definition even in the communities which use them aside from "bad martial arts."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## drop bear (Oct 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Technically, these are all made-up words that don't exist in the Dictionary.  They mean whatever the person using them want them to mean, just like "crapling."
> 
> Maybe someday there will be an actual definition but until then, they don't "technically" mean anything.


----------



## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Meh.  I guess I just got a wild hair.
> 
> 
> You're right, those terms are often disputed and I've weighed in myself on some of them, ranging from "sport" through "traditional."  And, yeah, they often mean different things to different people.  A TKD guy might think one thing when he hear's "traditional" and a koryu heavy person might think something else.  ...and these are terms that have a lot more history than "bullshido" and "mcdojo."  I think the term "McDojo" is only about 20 years old or less and "Bullshido" is even younger and neither seem to have a universally agreed on definition even in the communities which use them aside from "bad martial arts."
> ...


Can you believe Bullshido.net has been online since 2002?


----------



## Buka (Oct 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> Is it possible you were competing in freestyle wrestling?  Prohibition against attacking your opponent's legs or using your own is the biggest difference between Greco-Roman wrestling and other styles such as folk wrestling or freestyle wrestling.  Even inadvertently grasping your opponent's legs is a foul.


I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but back in the sixties, at least in the Boston area, there wasn't any wrestling in any high schools any of us ever heard about. Seems odd now thinking back on it.


----------



## Steve (Oct 15, 2021)

Buka said:


> I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but back in the sixties, at least in the Boston area, there wasn't any wrestling in any high schools any of us ever heard about. Seems odd now thinking back on it.


Crazy.  It's in all the schools around here.  What I'm really happy to see is a robust judo program in the high schools around here, and has since the 1950s.  It's a great compliment to wrestling.  Wrestling is a winter sport, and judo is a spring sport, so kids can do both if they're interested.  So, we've had Judo for longer than you guys have even had wrestling. 

What's really cool is that judo doesn't cut anyone and works on belts, not JV or Varsity, so everyone who wants to join the team can join, and everyone competes.


----------



## geezer (Oct 15, 2021)

Buka said:


> I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but back in the sixties, at least in the Boston area, there wasn't any wrestling in any high schools any of us ever heard about. Seems odd now thinking back on it.


We had it out here in Arizona in the mid '60s, although it wasn't as big a deal as it later became. We just called it "wrestling" or "collegiate wrestling" ...but it was what they now refer to as "folkstyle".  I'd heard about greco-roman and freestyle but never saw it done around here.

BTW this guy was my coach. I'll never forget him.






						Antonio
					

Antonio



					www.figsandfamiglia.com
				







lklawson said:


> Meh.  I guess I just got a wild hair.
> Kirk


Wait ...isn't that a_ "wild hare"?_

...I mean sure having a wild _hair _in a sensitive place would be un comfortable too, I guess, but not to the same degree!


----------



## Buka (Oct 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> Crazy.  It's in all the schools around here.  What I'm really happy to see is a robust judo program in the high schools around here, and has since the 1950s.  It's a great compliment to wrestling.  Wrestling is a winter sport, and judo is a spring sport, so kids can do both if they're interested.  So, we've had Judo for longer than you guys have even had wrestling.
> 
> What's really cool is that judo doesn't cut anyone and works on belts, not JV or Varsity, so everyone who wants to join the team can join, and everyone competes.



Yeah, it's odd. I was heavily into high school sports, never even once thought of wrestling as part of high school. It just wasn't there.


----------



## Buka (Oct 15, 2021)

geezer said:


> We had it out here in Arizona in the mid '60s, although it wasn't as big a deal as it later became. We just called it "wrestling" or "collegiate wrestling" ...but it was what they now refer to as "folkstyle".  I'd heard about greco-roman and freestyle but never saw it done around here.
> 
> BTW this guy was my coach. I'll never forget him.
> 
> ...


Great pics of your coach.

We knew of wrestling at the college level. We, too, knew it as "collegiate wrestling." That's all we ever called it or heard it called.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2021)

Buka said:


> Yeah, it's odd. I was heavily into high school sports, never even once thought of wrestling as part of high school. It just wasn't there.


My Sophomore year was the first year our schools had wrestling. We got ragged hard by other sports. It was a faggot sport and a queer sport and such. 
The DC coach for the football team was the wrestling coach. He finally convinced a group of starters on the foot ball team to agree to workout with the wrestling team for one week. 
After they discovered how much harder wrestling practices were versus football was all the name calling ended. The wrestling soon doubled in size and we were finally able to fill out a full team by weight categories.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> After they discovered how much harder wrestling practices were versus football


Around 1971 I took wrestling at the community college.  At that time I was working on my 2nd degree in karate, 20 yrs old and was pretty well ripped. Constant karate training and running left me with no fat. - but nothing compared to wrestling workouts!  I often got nose bleed from the exertion. The constant muscular resistance stamina demand was a different type of workout than I had experienced.  Not fast twitch, not raw strength, More like sanchin kata. It remains the toughest workout I have ever done.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 16, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Around 1971 I took wrestling at the community college.  At that time I was working on my 2nd degree in karate, 20 yrs old and was pretty well ripped. Constant karate training and running left me with no fat. - but nothing compared to wrestling workouts!  I often got nose bleed from the exertion. The constant muscular resistance stamina demand was a different type of workout than I had experienced.  Not fast twitch, not raw strength, More like sanchin kata. It remains the toughest workout I have ever done.


Agree. And that is exactly what the football guys experienced. Being in a constant strain is just a different kind of pressure testing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The good news is that even pure sport application is primarily about controlling position and the more dominant your position the bigger advantage you have in applying punching, kneeing, gouging, finger breaking, groin grabbing, etc.


And, generally speaking, the more dominant your position, the closer you are (in terms of chance of success, or steps to get there) to being able to stand up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This really took me back to my Roman-Greco wrestling days in High school & college. One round both people up, one round starting on the bottom, one round starting on the top.


This was how we trained in my Judo classes, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

lklawson said:


> No, I don't have it backwards unless you do too, because I am saying something close to what you are.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't know.  According to my wife I'm never right.
> ...


That's true of a lot of words that are actually in the dictionary. Context matters a lot, and very few dictionary definitions can really define the bounds of a word's meaning. "Self-defense" is in the dictionary, but we know from discussions here that there are different usages - some of them fairly common.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

Steve said:


> Crazy.  It's in all the schools around here.  What I'm really happy to see is a robust judo program in the high schools around here, and has since the 1950s.  It's a great compliment to wrestling.  Wrestling is a winter sport, and judo is a spring sport, so kids can do both if they're interested.  So, we've had Judo for longer than you guys have even had wrestling.
> 
> What's really cool is that judo doesn't cut anyone and works on belts, not JV or Varsity, so everyone who wants to join the team can join, and everyone competes.


If Judo had been offered as a sport, I might have been something more than the 4th-string goalie on the soccer team.


----------



## Buka (Oct 17, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Around 1971 I took wrestling at the community college.  At that time I was working on my 2nd degree in karate, 20 yrs old and was pretty well ripped. Constant karate training and running left me with no fat. - but nothing compared to wrestling workouts!  I often got nose bleed from the exertion. The constant muscular resistance stamina demand was a different type of workout than I had experienced.  Not fast twitch, not raw strength, More like sanchin kata. It remains the toughest workout I have ever done.


I always hated working out with wrestlers. They never get tired.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 17, 2021)

I would say that boxing does suffer from the "McDojo" phenomenon if you look at it a certain way. There are "fitness boxing" gyms popping up all over the place and are probably more readily available than an actual boxing gym. 

I have heard many people talk about going there and "learning to box".  I don't think that most of those gyms are marketing themselves as teaching "boxing skills" that you would be able to use your boxing in the ring, but this is an assumption that people make.  The biggest difference is the marketing.  There are many "martial arts" schools that are basically a fitness gym using their art and DO market that you are learning to fight.

There are also some BJJ schools that market to "high end" clientele that really reduce the rolling involved that it used to be known for.

At some point any martial art that becomes hugely financially successful will become more McDojo like.  Combat sports are hard and don't draw in large numbers of people to make as much money as a more "consumer friendly" place.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Good point about BJJ. I studied it for a while, but I kept thinking, "I may be losing this roll, but all the stuff the rules don't allow, like punching, kneeing, gouging, finger breaking, groin grabbing, etc. are exactly what I would be doing right now if this were a real fight.
> 
> Also, if I am on the ground, my #1 goal is to get off the ground, not stay there and roll. The technical stand up was the most important thing I learned. I actually learned some good ways to get out of a roll in another training. That did involve striking.



I’m sure the fighters who went up against Royce Gracie in the first few UFCs thought the exact same thing…..


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I’m sure the fighters who went up against Royce Gracie in the first few UFCs thought the exact same thing…..


Yeah, I hear you, but that is a whole other level. It is not even in the same universe I'm in. And if you add the possibilities in a street fight of someone having a weapon or accomplices, the ground is not where I want to be.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Yeah, I hear you, but that is a whole other level. It is not even in the same universe I'm in. And if you add the possibilities in a street fight of someone having a weapon or accomplices, the ground is not where I want to be.



It shouldn't be. The same principles that stop guys from punching Royce in the face or grabbing his nuts while he has them in Guard should be being taught to all BJJ students, including you.

Also someone having a weapon and/or accomplices is something that can pop up in any SD situation. It isn't something only BJJ exponents defending themselves need to deal with. I dealt with an overweight sociopath trying to bash my brains in with a hammer, and BJJ saved my ***. The ground wasn't where I wanted to be, but it was where I ended up. Fortunately I knew what I was doing when someone is on top of me.

If all I knew was karate, I'd be dead or a vegetable right now.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> It shouldn't be. The same principles that stop guys from punching Royce in the face or grabbing his nuts while he has them in Guard should be being taught to all BJJ students, including you.
> 
> Also someone having a weapon and/or accomplices is something that can pop up in any SD situation. It isn't something only BJJ exponents defending themselves need to deal with. I dealt with an overweight sociopath trying to bash my brains in with a hammer, and BJJ saved my ***. The ground wasn't where I wanted to be, but it was where I ended up. Fortunately I knew what I was doing when someone is on top of me.
> 
> If all I knew was karate, I'd be dead or a vegetable right now.


I'm glad you had a successful outcome with BJJ when you really needed it. And I respect that you have found a martial art that you seem to click with. Everyone's experience is different. If there were only one best art for everyone, there would only be one art.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Yeah, I hear you, but that is a whole other level. It is not even in the same universe I'm in. And if you add the possibilities in a street fight of someone having a weapon or accomplices, the ground is not where I want to be.



And you prevent that by avoiding the ground in training?

So say I didn't want to get punched in the face in a street fight. I would avoid boxing because that is all they seem do do.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I'm glad you had a successful outcome with BJJ when you really needed it. And I respect that you have found a martial art that you seem to click with. Everyone's experience is different. If there were only one best art for everyone, there would only be one art.



Well it's not about what is "the best art", it's about this bizarre logical trap that many people use to try to argue themselves out of training certain things. Your argument that you don't want to go to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario is a valid point, however, then saying that that is a weakness of BJJ is a bizarre conclusion. Yes, you don't want to get knocked to the ground when fighting multiple opponents, which is why it's probably a very good idea to learn how to fight off of your back in case you do get knocked to the ground, or learn how to sweep someone on top of you in order to regain a dominant position.

There was a SD case a few years ago where a female Karateka was attacked by an assailant and tackled to the ground. This female was a black belt and had one several championships, so she wasn't untrained. However, she was never able to get the assailant off of her despite her constant kicking and punching. The assailant only fled when another person showed up on the scene. The female had significant injuries to her face and body, and if the attack had continued, she could have very likely been killed.

I'm sure she didn't want to go to the ground either.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 18, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I would say that boxing does suffer from the "McDojo" phenomenon if you look at it a certain way. There are "fitness boxing" gyms popping up all over the place and are probably more readily available than an actual boxing gym.
> 
> I have heard many people talk about going there and "learning to box".  I don't think that most of those gyms are marketing themselves as teaching "boxing skills" that you would be able to use your boxing in the ring, but this is an assumption that people make.  The biggest difference is the marketing.  There are many "martial arts" schools that are basically a fitness gym using their art and DO market that you are learning to fight.


I've only heard of cardio kickboxing, but not a Western boxing version of this.  If people are going to places like this to learn how to fight, when the gym is clearly marketing itself as a fitness/cardio studio, then calling the place a "McDojo" implies that it's the gym's fault that people are signing up for memberships for the wrong reasons.

I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar.  Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio.  Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And you prevent that by avoiding the ground in training?
> 
> So say I didn't want to get punched in the face in a street fight. I would avoid boxing because that is all they seem do do.


I like your point. I'd suggest BJJ probably isn't the analog to boxing in this, though, because BJJ competition seems to heavily favor ground play. Something that has a higher penalty on being taken down might be better at developing anti-takedown. Judo seems like maybe more suited, though MMA is definitely offering more incentive to stay the heck off the ground if you're not great there.

So, screw BJJ. Do MMA.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Well it's not about what is "the best art", it's about this bizarre logical trap that many people use to try to argue themselves out of training certain things. Your argument that you don't want to go to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario is a valid point, however, then saying that that is a weakness of BJJ is a bizarre conclusion. Yes, you don't want to get knocked to the ground when fighting multiple opponents, which is why it's probably a very good idea to learn how to fight off of your back in case you do get knocked to the ground, or learn how to sweep someone on top of you in order to regain a dominant position.
> 
> There was a SD case a few years ago where a female Karateka was attacked by an assailant and tackled to the ground. This female was a black belt and had one several championships, so she wasn't untrained. However, she was never able to get the assailant off of her despite her constant kicking and punching. The assailant only fled when another person showed up on the scene. The female had significant injuries to her face and body, and if the attack had continued, she could have very likely been killed.
> 
> I'm sure she didn't want to go to the ground either.


Let me dumb it down for you: You do you, I'll do me.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And you prevent that by avoiding the ground in training?
> 
> So say I didn't want to get punched in the face in a street fight. I would avoid boxing because that is all they seem do do.


I didn't say I avoided ground training. I just said I tried BJJ and didn't care for it, because those guys want to stay on the ground. The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up. If BJJ emphasized that, I'd be all in.

But I am just expressing my opinion that applies to me only. You make your choices, I'll make mine.


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I like your point. I'd suggest BJJ probably isn't the analog to boxing in this, though, because BJJ competition seems to heavily favor ground play. Something that has a higher penalty on being taken down might be better at developing anti-takedown. Judo seems like maybe more suited, though MMA is definitely offering more incentive to stay the heck off the ground if you're not great there.
> 
> So, screw BJJ. Do MMA.


Every BJJ match in a competition starts standing.  The big difference is that you aren't saved by the rules if you're taken down.  If you want to get up, you have to get yourself up.  The ref won't stop the match and allow you to safely return to your feet.  

In judo (and in fact, in MMA), if you can stall for a bit, the ref will separate the competitors and allow both to safely return to their feet, fix their hair, catch their breath, and then resume.  In BJJ, if you get taken down, you're on your own.  That, in my opinion, is about as much of a penalty as one can get.  I mean, what more do you have in mind?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> Every BJJ match in a competition starts standing.  The big difference is that you aren't saved by the rules if you're taken down.  If you want to get up, you have to get yourself up.  The ref won't stop the match and allow you to safely return to your feet.
> 
> In judo (and in fact, in MMA), if you can stall for a bit, the ref will separate the competitors and allow both to safely return to their feet, fix their hair, catch their breath, and then resume.  In BJJ, if you get taken down, you're on your own.  That, in my opinion, is about as much of a penalty as one can get.  I mean, what more do you have in mind?


My thinking was that BJJ prefers to play on the ground, so there's not really a penalty for being there - it's just moving to the main event. Judo penalizes primarily around being taken down. And, of course, in MMA the other guy just might hit you a bit while you're down there. It's all pretty arguable, though.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My thinking was that BJJ prefers to play on the ground, so there's not really a penalty for being there - it's just moving to the main event. Judo penalizes primarily around being taken down. And, of course, in MMA the other guy just might hit you a bit while you're down there. It's all pretty arguable, though.


I don't think it's about preference.  Rather, it's about preparation encouraged by the ruleset.

Think about it like this.  In Judo, if you take me down and pursue a submission, you might win.  But I know that I will be rewarded with an orderly reset if I can just stall for a few seconds.  So, it's actually more accurate to say that Judo penalizes the take down, because that's where the action is.  And so, in Judo, I focus most of my preparation and skill development in the area where I am most at risk.  I know I have to fend for myself in the take down, but if I can avoid the ippon on a throw and stall, I'm rewarded, not penalized.  The situation is similar in MMA.  If you can stall the action long enough, even in a compromised position, you will be allowed to reset.

In BJJ, conversely, if you're taken down, not only do you lose points, you have to fend for yourself.  And knowing that you will not be saved by the referee, you will be prepared.  If you want to break contact and get up, there is nothing in the BJJ ruleset that prohibits you from doing that, provided you aren't fleeing combat.  

In this way, the ruleset encourages skill development.  You prepare for those areas where you are most at risk.  And so, the person best prepared to compete in the most diverse rulesets will be the best prepared overall.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 18, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar.  Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio.  Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.


I had the same opinion as you for a long while, but I've come up with a couple reasons for why someone may want it. 

1: The biggest one IMO-it's cheaper. At least in the gym that I looked at, it seems to be a lot cheaper, which makes sense if you're paying someone to give you a workout and not teach you a skill. 
2: Those classes tend to be mostly women, while actual kickboxing/boxing classes skew towards men. Women probably feel more comfortable in a class with women then men. Not saying if that's right/wrong/something should be done, or anything like that, just stating that's true for a majority of women. 
3: Some people don't like to be punched, or have a fear of it. So they're not going to join something where that's a possibility.

And then the other side of it-if they don't want to pay to learn a skill, and don't want to actually fight, why do cardio kickboxing? This I don't have an answer for, besides that I know some people who do cardio kickboxing leave out the cardio when they tell people, and brag about it-so they get to feel tougher, get fit, and not have the (perceived) drawbacks from above.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Good luck with that.


I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice. The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.

I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I didn't say I avoided ground training. I just said I tried BJJ and didn't care for it, because those guys want to stay on the ground. The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up. If BJJ emphasized that, I'd be all in.
> 
> But I am just expressing my opinion that applies to me only. You make your choices, I'll make mine.



That system you described is called folk wrestling.


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> And then the other side of it-if they don't want to pay to learn a skill, and don't want to actually fight, why do cardio kickboxing?



The movements build strength and the cardio is good.  Billy Blanks was a genius, but I think he should have listened to @Buka about the name Tae Bo.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> The movements build strength and the cardio is good.  Billy Blanks was a genius, but I think he should have listened to @Buka about the name Tae Bo.


It does, but there are plenty of things that do that, besides cardio kickboxing. Rock climbing, training for obstacle courses, or just general working out. Keep in mind my point about them feeling tougher wasn't an insult, although re-reading I can see it that way. Of those 4 (and probably more) options, they've got to choose one, from an outside perspective doesn't really matter which. So if they like CKB cause it makes them feel tougher, they should go for it.


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice. The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.



Speaking just for myself, I don't begrudge anyone learning or not learning whatever works for them.  If you don't want to learn to fight, no problem.  And I don't hold it against anyone who has been misled.  Where I do have a problem is when people mislead others and teach things they're not competent to teach, or when they kid themselves.  So, if you don't want to learn groundfighting, no sweat.  Just understand that you may have a hole in your game. 



jmf552 said:


> I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.


I look at it as an aspirational statement more than an observational statement.


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It does, but there are plenty of things that do that, besides cardio kickboxing. Rock climbing, training for obstacle courses, or just general working out. Keep in mind my point about them feeling tougher wasn't an insult, although re-reading I can see it that way. Of those 4 (and probably more) options, they've got to choose one, from an outside perspective doesn't really matter which. So if they like CKB cause it makes them feel tougher, they should go for it.


Totally, and I'm not arguing.  I get your point.  My own opinion is that it's about the goal.  If the goal is to learn to fight, rock climbing won't work any better than cardio kickboxing.  But if the goal is to be strong and fit, both can work as well as MMA.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I've only heard of cardio kickboxing, but not a Western boxing version of this.  If people are going to places like this to learn how to fight, when the gym is clearly marketing itself as a fitness/cardio studio, then calling the place a "McDojo" implies that it's the gym's fault that people are signing up for memberships for the wrong reasons.
> 
> I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar.  Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio.  Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.


It is for people who want the fitness level without the contact.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> Speaking just for myself, I don't begrudge anyone learning or not learning whatever works for them.  If you don't want to learn to fight, no problem.  And I don't hold it against anyone who has been misled.  Where I do have a problem is when people mislead others and teach things they're not competent to teach, or when they kid themselves.  So, if you don't want to learn groundfighting, no sweat.  Just understand that you may have a hole in your game.


Everyone has holes in their game. That's why we don't stop training. And again, I am not against ground fighting. I just didn't care for the BJJ classes I took, but I like the school's Muay Thai program, so I stay there.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> That system you described is called folk wrestling.


You got that wrong. I did do a little of that in high school, many decades ago. What I learned about ground fighting was from a dedicated self defense program that was not related to any traditional martial art.


----------



## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Everyone has holes in their game.


Yup.  It's about minimizing blind spots.  It's okay to have holes in your game, if you're aware of them and okay with them.  It's thinking you're good at things that you are not actually good at... that can get you into trouble.


----------



## geezer (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.


I think this place is pretty friendly, but then I try to come here with a friendly attitude and defer to those who know more than I.  That way when somebody posts a really rude response, _they_ end up looking like a jerk.

On the other hand you can respond with_ irritation_ like you did when you posted...


jmf552 said:


> Let me* dumb it down* for you: You do you, I'll do me.


...and people might think _you're_ the jerk. I know I did ....which is a shame because unlike the folks you are debating with, I thought you made some good points. 

For example, you stated you don't really like arts where you go to the ground and stay there. I get that. Wing Chun has been my core art for a long time. And since I've gotten older I really don't enjoy being on the ground so much, so I when it goes to the ground, like you, I focus more on escape and recovery to stand-up instead of pursuing the ground game.

But when I take that position, I also get some flack. And if I use the term "anti-grappling", _boy!_ will I get some flack. I had to purge that term from my vocabulary!


----------



## drop bear (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> You got that wrong. I did do a little of that in high school, many decades ago. What I learned about ground fighting was from a dedicated self defense program that was not related to any traditional martial art.



Was it SCARS?


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Was it SCARS?


No, never heard of that. It was a course called Impact Self Defense. It used attackers in full padded suits. You went at them full contact, no targets off limits. There was a whole ground fighting segment of it. I took a resident long weekend course in it and it was very intense.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I didn't say I avoided ground training. I just said I tried BJJ and didn't care for it, because those guys want to stay on the ground. The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up. If BJJ emphasized that, I'd be all in.
> 
> But I am just expressing my opinion that applies to me only. You make your choices, I'll make mine.



Except that isn't what you said. You said that while you were rolling on the ground you believed that it was ultimately pointless because you could simply punch, kick, or do some dirty tricks to get out of it.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

geezer said:


> I think this place is pretty friendly, but then I try to come here with a friendly attitude and defer to those who know more than I.  That way when somebody posts a really rude response, _they_ end up looking like a jerk.
> 
> On the other hand you can respond with_ irritation_ like you did when you posted...
> 
> ...


Yeah, when someone goes out of the way to irritate me, I get irritated. I'm funny like that. 

As to the BJJ guys, they are pretty dogmatic. Somebody comes along and has some success with an art and people start to worship it. It usually has to do with what people see in sports, TV and movies. There was Karate' back in the day, then Kung Fu (like that was just one thing!), then whatever Bruce Lee was doing. Krav Maga and BJJ are having their day. In ten years, it will be something else. I am noticing in UFC, which seems to be everyone's yardstick, the grapplers are still in there, but the punchers are making a pretty good show too. Even some Wing Chun with Anderson Silva. Now there is "folk wrestling" like Kabib giving the BJJ guys a run for their money.

I think that is all interesting, but I am more concerned about my situation, my strategy and my capabilities. I am not a UFC fighter and never will be. What is good for them, the superb athletes they are, may not be good for an old guy like me. Like Bruce Lee said, "I don't fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks, but the man who knows one kick he has practiced 10,000 times. Styles don't get into fights, people do.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Somebody comes along and has some success with an art and people start to worship it. It usually has to do with what people see in sports, TV and movies. There was Karate' back in the day, then Kung Fu (like that was just one thing!), then whatever Bruce Lee was doing. Krav Maga and BJJ are having their day. In ten years, it will be something else. I am noticing in UFC, which seems to be everyone's yardstick, the grapplers are still in there, but the punchers are making a pretty good show too. Even some Wing Chun with Anderson Silva. Now there is "folk wrestling" like Kabib giving the BJJ guys a run for their money.



Except, BJJ has been "having its day" for nearly 30 years. It's not based on movies, it's based on effectiveness (and a rather appealing MA culture). Pure and simple.

The Karate and Kung Fu phases ended because (as you stated), they were popularized by fiction. BJJ was popularized via an actual martial arts tournament.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Except, BJJ has been "having its day" for nearly 30 years. It's not based on movies, it's based on effectiveness (and a rather appealing MA culture). Pure and simple.
> 
> The Karate and Kung Fu phases ended because (as you stated), they were popularized by fiction. BJJ was popularized via an actual martial arts tournament.


It had its day early on, but in the history of the UFC, 64% more fights have been decided by KO than submission. And not all the submissions have been by BJJ guys. There are wrestlers getting them too. So in the long run, BJJ has proven to be important, but not the dominant, art.


----------



## geezer (Oct 18, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I think that is all interesting, but I am more concerned about my situation, my strategy and my capabilities. I am not a UFC fighter and never will be. What is good for them, the superb athletes they are, may not be good for an old guy like me. Like Bruce Lee said, "I don't fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks, but the man who knows one kick he has practiced 10,000 times....


OK. I can agree about 100% with what you said in the quote above. All that pretty much applies to me too. 

As for responding to irritating remarks with irritation... what can I say? We're all human, right? But do yourself a favor and try not to take the bait!


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 18, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Except that isn't what you said. You said that while you were rolling on the ground you believed that it was ultimately pointless because you could simply punch, kick, or do some dirty tricks to get out of it.


And that is exactly what I learned when I studied ground fighting.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> It had its day early on, but in the history of the UFC, 64% more fights have been decided by KO than submission. And not all the submissions have been by BJJ guys. There are wrestlers getting them too. So in the long run, BJJ has proven to be important, but not the dominant, art.



There's two major problems with your argument here;

1. While BJJ isn't "dominant" in MMA as a whole, it's dominant in its lane, which is *submission grappling*. Every MMA fighter has to know submission grappling to be competitive, so every fighter is learning BJJ on some level. Also you don't learn subs in wrestling, those wrestlers learn their subs from their BJJ coach (unless they're from Eastern Europe).

In addition, you still get high level BJJ practitioners who enter MMA and cause serious problems for their opponents because if you're fighting an elite BJJ practitioner you can't risk grappling with them because they will destroy you on the mat. This forces their opponents to have to avoid the take down the entire match, which can be difficult to do. Those situations showcase BJJ's continued importance in the MMA sphere.

2. BJJ is a popular martial art in its own right. While its success is linked to MMA, the vast majority of people practice the art in of itself.

The only way BJJ would lose its popularity is if another MA comes along and decisively beats its highest practitioners. However, that's unlikely to happen due to the nature of modern martial arts, and the way BJJ absorbs competing grappling systems. Again, you're comparing martial arts that were popularized via fiction, to a martial art that was popularized via reality. Hence why those other MA's popularity faded, and BJJ's popularity has endured.

On the other hand, I don't think Krav is doing all that hot these days. Why? Because it was popularized via the late 90's film *Enough *starring Jennifer Lopez.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> And that is exactly what I learned when I studied ground fighting.



That isn't what you learned. That's what you assumed via inexperience.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK. I can agree about 100% with what you said in the quote above. All that pretty much applies to me too.
> 
> As for responding to irritating remarks with irritation... what can I say? We're all human, right? But do yourself a favor and try not to take the bait!



Yeah, I'm not trying to "bait" anyone. @jmf552 is making inaccurate statements and they're merely being corrected.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That isn't what you learned. That's what you assumed via inexperience.


You don't know what I learned or what my experience is. You weren't there. I have over 25 years studying the arts, including Judo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Karate', Krav Maga and yes, a little BJJ. I know I don't know it all, I doubt anyone does, but I know what I learned and I know I can use it.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> You don't know what I learned or what my experience is. You weren't there. I have over 25 years studying the arts, including Judo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Karate', Krav Maga and yes, a little BJJ. I know I don't know it all, I doubt anyone does, but I know what I learned and I know I can use it.



I don't know what you learned or what your experience is, but I know BJJ. To say that the entire art can be nullified by strikes and "dirty tricks" is utter nonsense full stop.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 19, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK. I can agree about 100% with what you said in the quote above. All that pretty much applies to me too.
> 
> As for responding to irritating remarks with irritation... what can I say? We're all human, right? But do yourself a favor and try not to take the bait!



Wait a second. What elite level moves that require some sort of superior physicality do people think UFC fighters learn?

Here we go. Most common takedowns.








						Fight Stats: Double Leg Is The Most Common MMA Takedown, Nurmagomedov Most Successful Takedown Artist
					

MMA Fight DB looked at over 2,072 trips and throws in 799 MMA fights to see what were the best takedowns for mixed martial arts (MMA). The top was the double leg takedown. It accounted for 37.4 percent of all takedowns recorded. In fact, the double leg accounted for more takedowns than …




					www.bjjee.com
				




Most common submissions.









						Most Common Submissions in MMA (Top 5)
					

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has been a key part of MMA since the early UFC events. At UFC 1 in 1993, the BJJ legend Royce Gracie showed the world…




					medium.com


----------



## lklawson (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice.


Then you don't have a lot of experience or are looking in the wrong place.  I tell folks all the time that they're not as trained or as ready as they think they are, particularly people in the firearms-for-self-defense community or women who want to/have taken a "Women's Self Defense Class."  I used to try to be nice about it but that never worked.  Now I'm a little bit more blunt.  I usually try not to be deliberately insulting but I don't try to sugar coat it any more.



jmf552 said:


> The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.


I assume here that you think I'm criticizing you for studying "the wrong martial art."  If so, that's wrong.  I'm criticizing you for thinking that the "ground training [you have] had is about breaking contact and getting up" will be effective at doing so.  The only people I've ever seen who actually were able to make that plan work were people who put significant study into ground-grappling and not those who thought that it would be sufficient to merely train how to "break contact and get back up."  For some reason the latter almost always dramatically underestimate how easy it is for even an untrained goober to cabbage on to them, drag them to the floor, and keep them there, while simultaneously over-estimating their own ability to prevent and then undo that process.



jmf552 said:


> I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.


Then it's not a big enough deal to mention, right?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice. The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.
> 
> I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.


It is a friendly site for the most part. But jut like most all MA's it can get competitive at times. Disagreements happen and are frequently discussed to a resolution or at least consensus; sometimes with relish. 
So don't let a disagreement with your personal opinion or personal experience offend you. One of the really, really cool things about this site is that you get opinion and experienced advise from people all over the world.

Being a site specific to one subject I feel most people consider it a forum for experts, people looking for expert advise, or people aspiring to become experts. 

Sometimes jokers and trolls get on here and become a nuisance until they get bored or flushed out. 
I do not believe you have been here long enough to see some of the downright ugly on here yet.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 19, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> It is a friendly site for the most part. But jut like most all MA's it can get competitive at times. Disagreements happen and are frequently discussed to a resolution or at least consensus; sometimes with relish.
> So don't let a disagreement with your personal opinion or personal experience offend you. One of the really, really cool things about this site is that you get opinion and experienced advise from people all over the world.


As a friend of mine once said, "A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I don't know what you learned or what your experience is, but I know BJJ. To say that the entire art can be nullified by strikes and "dirty tricks" is utter nonsense full stop.


BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe. Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov. BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling. Don't get me wrong, it is a great martial art. But practitioners tend to think it is the be all and end all. It is not. So you knowing BJJ does not tell the whole story. BJJ doesn't allow the stuff I'm talking about. So how would you know?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

It’s like we’re playing MA bingo from 1995.


jmf552 said:


> BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe.



Who said it was?



jmf552 said:


> Not even the ground fighting universe.  Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov.



Both of whom have studied and practiced BJJ themselves. That said, both of whom are also retired, and are no longer actively competing. Currently in the world of grappling, BJJ is very much the center of the grappling/ground fighting universe, and is dominated by BJJ exponents.



jmf552 said:


> BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling. Don't get me wrong, it is a great martial art. But practitioners tend to think it is the be all and end all. It is not. So you knowing BJJ does not tell the whole story. BJJ doesn't allow the stuff I'm talking about. So how would you know?



Except you were talking about BJJ specifically, and attributing falsehoods to that particular grappling system, not grappling in general. As for BJJ not allowing strikes, this again showcases your inexperience with the system. If you had stayed a bit longer, perhaps you would have been taught how to deal with people striking you while in a position. A grappler dealing with someone striking them while in a position or a hold is sort of the foundation of the system, but your initial training in BJJ is going to be about learning the basics.

You have to walk before you can run grasshopper.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> It’s like we’re playing MA bingo from 1995.
> 
> 
> Who said it was?
> ...


Apparently one has to drink the Kool-aide also.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Apparently one has to drink the Kool-aide also.



Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.


----------



## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe. Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov. BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling. Don't get me wrong, it is a great martial art. But practitioners tend to think it is the be all and end all. It is not. So you knowing BJJ does not tell the whole story. BJJ doesn't allow the stuff I'm talking about. So how would you know?


Ah, Sakuraba and Khabib... a couple of great BJJ practitioners, IMO.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.


Never said anything like that. Now you are just making things up.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Ah, Sakuraba and Khabib... a couple of great BJJ practitioners, IMO.


Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.

Well, Bye!


----------



## lklawson (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.
> 
> Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.
> 
> Well, Bye!


Say hi to the guys at MAP for me.  I'm there on rare occasion too.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie.



Because he practiced in no-gi. 10th planet JJ guys have the same problem.



jmf552 said:


> Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.



Practicing martial art =/= Martial Art claiming someone




jmf552 said:


> Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.
> 
> Well, Bye!


----------



## drop bear (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.



Yeah. But we are still discussing guys with good foundational grappling. Vs advocating what is probably terrible grappling. 

If the argument is that kabib could effectively use the titty twister in a grappling match. I would agree.

If the argument is that someone without the foundation can use it instead of grappling. I don't think that is the case. 

There are things you should be doing in grappling and things you shouldn't. And this isn't dependent on whether you train street or sport or stand up or striking. 

The argument isn't about eye gouging a guy. 

It is about doing it in a way that doesn't really work. 

Now the question becomes. How do I know it doesn't work? 

And the answer is it doesn't work until someone can show it does. ( Which can be argued philosophically but from a practical stand point is the best practice)


----------



## drop bear (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.
> 
> Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.
> 
> Well, Bye!



Sorry. The other major point here is. Sakuraba or kabib could enter BJJ tournaments at a black belt level and smoke people.

Now this is important if you are going grapple that your skills are transferable.

If street system could go to clubs that grapple and just stand up. That would be a different discussion.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Sorry. The other major point here is. Sakuraba or kabib could enter BJJ tournaments at a black belt level and smoke people.
> 
> Now this is important if you are going grapple that your skills are transferable.
> 
> If street system could go to clubs that grapple and just stand up. That would be a different discussion.



But he made a really dumb point to begin with. Again, it's like MA bingo from 1995; The rivalry between the Gracies and Sakuraba is long over, and the Gracies no longer have hegemony over BJJ, nor are viewed as some sort of superheroes. Neither the Gracies or Sakuraba are significant factors in modern grappling. We're dealing with an entirely new generation of BJJ practitioners who view Sakuraba as a hero BECAUSE he beat the Gracies repeatedly, and don't take what the Gracies say or do seriously. Heck, there's guys who wear Sakuraba rashguards to Royce seminars just to see if it'll piss him off.


----------



## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.
> 
> Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.
> 
> Well, Bye!


Bummer.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> You don't know what I learned or what my experience is. You weren't there. I have over 25 years studying the arts, including Judo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Karate', Krav Maga and yes, a little BJJ. I know I don't know it all, I doubt anyone does, but I know what I learned and I know I can use it.



I'm trying to be rude, but I can only imagine that your BJJ teacher also only knew a little BJJ. I'm hardly a BJJ expert (5 years on and off, but still a white belt), but if you have someone in an effective mount or guard, they are not going to be able to kick you or do "dirty tricks".


----------



## Buka (Oct 19, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> But he made a really dumb point to begin with. Again, it's like MA bingo from 1995; The rivalry between the Gracies and Sakuraba is long over, and the Gracies no longer have hegemony over BJJ, nor are viewed as some sort of superheroes. Neither the Gracies or Sakuraba are significant factors in modern grappling. We're dealing with an entirely new generation of BJJ practitioners who view Sakuraba as a hero BECAUSE he beat the Gracies repeatedly, and don't take what the Gracies say or do seriously. Heck, there's guys who wear Sakuraba rashguards to Royce seminars just to see if it'll piss him off.


Hegemony....what a great word.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 19, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe. Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov. BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling.





Steve said:


> Ah, Sakuraba and Khabib... a couple of great BJJ practitioners, IMO.


Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to claim that Sakuraba or Khabib achieved their skills through studying BJJ. What he might be getting at is the long tradition within BJJ where we will steal anything that works, so long as it's not red hot or nailed down. (If we can pry it up, it wasn't really nailed down.)

In other words, as soon as Sakuraba and Khabib demonstrated their dominant skills, a good number of BJJ practitioners started studying what they do and figuring out how to absorb their knowledge and techniques into the art of BJJ. 

Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."


----------



## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to claim that Sakuraba or Khabib achieved their skills through studying BJJ. What he might be getting at is the long tradition within BJJ where we will steal anything that works, so long as it's not red hot or nailed down. (If we can pry it up, it wasn't really nailed down.)
> 
> In other words, as soon as Sakuraba and Khabib demonstrated their dominant skills, a good number of BJJ practitioners started studying what they do and figuring out how to absorb their knowledge and techniques into the art of BJJ.
> 
> Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."


Totally.  And it's more than just a style.  It's about intellectual curiosity and an openness to being shown a better way.  MMA's like that, too.  

And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure if Khabib paid his $40 for an IBJJF membership, they'd let him enter any competition he wants.  And if he wins gold at the Mundials or the Pan Ams black belt division, I don't think anyone would suggest he didn't use BJJ.  

Point is, he may not want to, but that's him... not the art (and by extension, the underlying openness and curiosity) of BJJ.  

Now, to be clear, if he's a jerk, he may not find too many schools to train in... but that's different.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 19, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to claim that Sakuraba or Khabib achieved their skills through studying BJJ. What he might be getting at is the long tradition within BJJ where we will steal anything that works, so long as it's not red hot or nailed down. (If we can pry it up, it wasn't really nailed down.)
> 
> In other words, as soon as Sakuraba and Khabib demonstrated their dominant skills, a good number of BJJ practitioners started studying what they do and figuring out how to absorb their knowledge and techniques into the art of BJJ.
> 
> Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."



And that's why BJJ is the center of the grappling galaxy. It's not because BJJ is the greatest martial art ever, it's because grapplers from all stripes congregate into that mass and form of singularity of grappling that competing systems simply can't escape. It's like the grappling version of a black hole, and it really pisses off a lot of people trying to create a grappling system free of BJJ's orbit.

Catch Wrestling being a prime example.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Totally.  And it's more than just a style.  It's about intellectual curiosity and an openness to being shown a better way.  MMA's like that, too.
> 
> And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure if Khabib paid his $40 for an IBJJF membership, they'd let him enter any competition he wants.  And if he wins gold at the Mundials or the Pan Ams black belt division, I don't think anyone would suggest he didn't use BJJ.
> 
> ...



Exept for the whole issue of affiliation fees. And garbage that goes on.


----------



## Buka (Oct 19, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."


Yeah, but then you would be an honorary member of American Karate. We been stealing dat stuff since 1972. 
And still are.


----------



## punisher73 (Oct 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I've only heard of cardio kickboxing, but not a Western boxing version of this.  If people are going to places like this to learn how to fight, when the gym is clearly marketing itself as a fitness/cardio studio, then calling the place a "McDojo" implies that it's the gym's fault that people are signing up for memberships for the wrong reasons.
> 
> I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar.  Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio.  Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.







__





						TITLE Boxing Club | Boxing & Kickboxing Studios for Full-Body Fitness
					

Fall in love with fitness by taking the ultimate mind-body challenge! Our boxing-inspired exercise classes give people of all ages the most empowering workout of their lives. Find a club near you.




					titleboxingclub.com
				




The popular one in our area.

Many people join martial arts schools that don't focus on fighting and focus on the other reasons that people enjoy doing physical activities.  There are schools that don't focus on just the fighting aspect of a martial art.  Some schools exist for the sports aspect (TKD for example), they may promote the self-discipline you learn, they may use the martial art as a vehicle for more self-improvement/spiritual reasons (aikido for example).  Even if a school is clear on their goals, people assume that they are learning fighting skills.

If you are young enough to remember, there was a big "to do" with Tae Bo because it was designed as a fitness program and people thought they were also learning how to fight.  

So, I am not saying that the gym/school is to blame.  I am talking about the tendency for people to associate an activity with it purpose even though the purpose of THEIR activity isn't the same.  For example, people think they are learning how to box because they are "boxing" when the activity is using boxing for fitness and they aren't learning the skills to actually employ it.  It is kind of a "mcdojo consumer" activity.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

back to the thread topic,  most arts like boxing /wrestling you have  to get on the mat and really fight same with boxing.  These western arts are more competition orientated in that the Gym training say the Boxer will keep it hard and real because they value their reputation over making big bucks. This is definitely the case in London or any UK Boxing Gym.
I think in the US too with Boxing and even College wrestling. Bottom line is no belts to wear just you can do it or you get your *** whooped !
whooped i say !!


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

I think the Black belt thing has a lot to do with it. everyone wants one..but quality ? no problem pay the guy to help you. Bingo a two or three year black belt...LOL   Honestly met some really crap Dan grades.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> I think the Black belt thing has a lot to do with it. everyone wants one..but quality ? no problem pay the guy to help you. Bingo a two or three year black belt...LOL   Honestly met some really crap Dan grades.


I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.

I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.


----------



## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.
> 
> I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.


If you listen to some of the old timers around here, there was a functional difference between the black belts circa WWII and now.  While that may also be a myth propagated since then, it's also possible that things were actually different. 

Reminds me of french fries.  They actually WERE better in the 70s and 80s.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.
> 
> I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.


And that ambiguity on the meaning of the black belt is part of what enables bullshido in the eastern arts.  I think the lack of belts or other insignia helps keep "dim mak" and "no touch knockouts" out of boxing and wrestling.  Ultimately, I think the spectator sport aspect of these arts play the largest role, but the lack of belts doesn't hurt either.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 20, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> I am noticing in UFC, which seems to be everyone's yardstick…


Not mine.  Never was, never will be.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> And that ambiguity on the meaning of the black belt is part of what enables bullshido in the eastern arts.  I think the lack of belts or other insignia helps keep "dim mak" and "no touch knockouts" out of boxing and wrestling.  Ultimately, I think the spectator sport aspect of these arts play the largest role, but the lack of belts doesn't hurt either.


I don't think we can blame any of that on the difference in usage between groups. The problem is that BB was arbitrarily chosen as a cutoff for expertise (through marketing and movies, mostly) by much of the public and even many within the MA community. If you had a BB, you were an "expert". And not until then.

It's a bit like assuming only someone with white hair or a bald head can have wisdom. It's arbitrary, and the fact that different people turn grey or lose their hair at different times isn't really the issue.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Not mine.  Never was, never will be.


One thing I've noticed is that the basis on which people say that the UFC is or isn't the yardstick is... whether or not the art they practice benefits from it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> One thing I've noticed is that the basis on which people say that the UFC is or isn't the yardstick is... whether or not the art they practice benefits from it.


For me, it is just lack of interest, plain and simple.  Ive never followed it, don’t know nor care who the players are, am only vaguely familiar with a few of the big names, and only to know that they are/were competitors but nothing about their methodologies nor their fight records.  UFC is what it is.  I am not connected to it, and I’m fine with that.  I don’t structure my training based on what is happening in the UFC.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.
> 
> I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.


yeah i mean in the UK people were really first introduced to Judo/Jui Jitsu. Most wore a white belt only the instructor/sensei a Black belt.
I think this should be the case even today, of course kids will want to mark their standards by a coloured belt. I understand this in a way but i feel it´s diluted the arts effectivness (as you wrote standards in different dojos).


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

I also have an old book by Henry(Henri) plee i think.. a French man who first trained in France Shotokan and he speaks about it.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> One thing I've noticed is that the basis on which people say that the UFC is or isn't the yardstick is... whether or not the art they practice benefits from it.



I think it's important to note what the UFC actually was and what it actually did to martial arts. The UFC was essentially an advertisement for Gracie Jiujitsu. The Gracies had been struggling for years to popularize their art, and its effectiveness, and the first UFCs were the perfect venue to do exactly that.

Whether people like it or, the first UFC was a permanent paradigm shift in martial arts. There was no longer any guesswork on what was effective and what was BS. If your art was legit, it should be able to put up at least a good showing in the octagon, and that was a very fair argument to make during the early years. MMA now is it's own beast, not really made up of individual styles trying to see what can come out on top, but effective techniques from many styles blended up into an efficient fighting form. However, despite that, the core MAs that were successful in the first UFCs are still present in the repertoire of modern fighters.

Martial Arts as a whole are better now than they were before the UFC. That's simply the truth.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

shame it´s only in French. His book i have is in English. from the early 60s





The Book i have is @ 3:50  it´s called KARATE, Beginner to Black belt 1967 copy


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> yeah i mean in the UK people were really first introduced to Judo/Jui Jitsu. Most wore a white belt only the instructor/sensei a Black belt.
> I think this should be the case even today, of course kids will want to mark their standards by a coloured belt. I understand this in a way but i feel it´s diluted the arts effectivness (as you wrote standards in different dojos).


That was the approach early on in Kodokan, as I understand it. BB meant they had covered the basics, or something to that effect. Kano later added more ranks (and colors to go with them).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> shame it´s only in French. His book i have is in English. from the early 60s
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched the first few minutes. Seems to be mostly his journey in MA. I might go back and finish watching later, see how much history is discussed, since I know little of the background of JMA in Europe.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That was the approach early on in Kodokan, as I understand it. BB meant they had covered the basics, or something to that effect. Kano later added more ranks (and colors to go with them).


yes it was Kano who as an educator started the coloured belts. before this it was certificates. Even Escrima..etc has belts now


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I watched the first few minutes. Seems to be mostly his journey in MA. I might go back and finish watching later, see how much history is discussed, since I know little of the background of JMA in Europe.


The Book is great not sure if still in print.
HD Plee was a 
5th Dan Karate (shotokan)
4th Dan Judo
2nd Dan Aikido
ISBN 0-572 -00086-3


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## lklawson (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That was the approach early on in Kodokan, as I understand it. BB meant they had covered the basics, or something to that effect. Kano later added more ranks (and colors to go with them).


Here's an article:




__





						The Judo Rank System - Belts | Judo Info
					

Achievement in Judo is recognized by a series of ranks. The student ranks are called kyu and are usually differentiated by colored belts (obi). Different colors



					judoinfo.com
				




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 20, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> At some point any martial art that becomes hugely financially successful will become more McDojo like.


Warning:  This post has shocking content midway thru.  Do not read if prone to brain explosion.

Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), _punisher73_ has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."

"Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on _volume_.  Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality.  Fast.  Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it.  These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. _It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses._ A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.

Now, heavy contact, very strict standard of expectations, esoteric content, and/or very hard dedicated, often repetitive (boring) work do NOT lead to a high volume of participants.  This is why the Western arts mentioned in the 6 year old OP are not subject to the McDojo syndrome.  They don't appeal to a wide range of the public's interest.  TMA's that do not cater to the masses are also in no danger of catching "Mc-itis." 

_OK, ready for a shocking statement_?  WESTERN KARATE WAS_ BORN _IN A McDOJO.  As we all know, the art was brought to the USA by Marines and other military based in Okinawa/Japan post Korean War.  Re-read the 1st sentence of the previous paragraph.........Sounds like the way they taught over there, right?  So how could they have a high volume of students and become a McDojo?

It was a _unique_ situation where there just happen to be a VERY large market of people who LIKED banging, strict discipline, hard dedicated work - US Marines. As I proposed, a large market volume can lead to the McDojo Syndrome.  What the karate masters gave the military was an easy to learn, simplified menu, quick (they were typically there 1.5-2yrs), satisfying to them physically (_muy macho_) and intellectually (they had no concept of the "real" karate) and were happy with the simple basics. This last sentence contains many of the same words used earlier here to describe McDonald's. The native students were often taught differently as they had years to devote and a different mind set,

The result of those early McDojo "graduates" was that the karate they brought back was the McDonald's version, and not the Lawry's Steakhouse version.  But it was still challenging enough that the early market in the USA was limited as most of us were civilians and few were drawn to the demands of the early karate schools.  As popularity grew here, our own version of the McDojo evolved with a certain loss of quality in favor of mass volume.   

Well, it looks like I got a little carried away, again, running over the 2 or 3 paragraphs I figured on as more and more things dawned on me.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 21, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Warning:  This post has shocking content midway thru.  Do not read if prone to brain explosion.
> 
> Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), _punisher73_ has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."
> 
> ...



Yeah, BJJ has definitely entered its McDojo phase. However, unlike Karate and other MAs, I think BJJ benefits from it's closeness with MMA, and its inherent NHB heritage. It's almost like an obligation for BJJ to remain in a realm where it is a practical system of fighting and self defense. When the Berimbolo gained prominence in BJJ competition for example, people immediately questioned if that technique could work in a MMA format. In addition, high end BJJ competitors like Gordon Ryan and Garry Tonnon are expected to eventually enter MMA and perform relatively well.

As I've said many times, MMA keeps BJJ honest, and it drives competitive BJJ to remain in the realm of reality, without it going too far out to pasture. So while I will again say that BJJ is definitely entering its McDojo phase, clearly not all McDojos are created equal. Of course, time will tell if this situation persists, because there are cases of people obtaining BJJ black belts a lot faster and a lot less skilled than they used to.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> people obtaining BJJ black belts a lot faster and a lot less skilled than they used to.


yup---100%   everyone seems to be connected to the well known Families in BJJ   a lot of Blue belts teaching too.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

man this is sad...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 21, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> yup---100%   everyone seems to be connected to the well known Families in BJJ   a lot of Blue belts teaching too.


The blue belts teaching isn't anything new, I think. Others with more knowledge can correct if what I think I remember isn't accurate, but to spread the art, folks were encouraged to start teaching pretty early. I know at least one group of Gracies was still promoting "study groups" a few years ago - might still be. Those would be led by someone I think below purple.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The blue belts teaching isn't anything new, I think. Others with more knowledge can correct if what I think I remember isn't accurate, but to spread the art, folks were encouraged to start teaching pretty early. I know at least one group of Gracies was still promoting "study groups" a few years ago - might still be. Those would be led by someone I think below purple.


yeah not saying all are bad but hey...the Gracies can give each other a Red belt...


----------



## lklawson (Oct 21, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Warning:  This post has shocking content midway thru.  Do not read if prone to brain explosion.
> 
> Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), _punisher73_ has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."
> 
> "Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on _volume_.  Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality.  Fast.  Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it.  These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. _It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses._ A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.


The biggest watch word for McDonald's was "standardized."  A McDonald's cheeseburger made in LA looks and tastes exactly the same as a McDonalds cheeseburger in NY.  The menu is exactly the same in Wisconsin as it is in Florida.  You know exactly what you're going to get anywhere you go.   McDonald's is single-handedly responsible for the Idaho potato industry. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 21, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Warning:  This post has shocking content midway thru.  Do not read if prone to brain explosion.
> 
> Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), _punisher73_ has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."
> 
> ...


Everything about that post was interesting and informative.  My only comment is you should aim higher than a Lawrys steakhouse.  You can do better.  


lklawson said:


> The biggest watch word for McDonald's was "standardized."  A McDonald's cheeseburger made in LA looks and tastes exactly the same as a McDonalds cheeseburger in NY.  The menu is exactly the same in Wisconsin as it is in Florida.  You know exactly what you're going to get anywhere you go.   McDonald's is single-handedly responsible for the Idaho potato industry.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Anyone else work at McDs as their first job?  I remember when we had to actually flip the burgers.

fun fact, when I worked at the McDs at the ferry terminal in the late 80s, we served fish n chips and clam chowder.  So they weren’t completely standardized.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 21, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think we can blame any of that on the difference in usage between groups. The problem is that BB was arbitrarily chosen as a cutoff for expertise (through marketing and movies, mostly) by much of the public and even many within the MA community. If you had a BB, you were an "expert". And not until then.


It was the common understanding before that.  In _Black Belt Magazine,_ 1961, Vol. 1, No. 1, in the front-page Editorial, they write:

"Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self- defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor.   Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

lklawson said:


> The biggest watch word for McDonald's was "standardized."  A McDonald's cheeseburger made in LA looks and tastes exactly the same as a McDonalds cheeseburger in NY.  The menu is exactly the same in Wisconsin as it is in Florida.  You know exactly what you're going to get anywhere you go.   McDonald's is single-handedly responsible for the Idaho potato industry.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Hmmm.....might get a double whopper later but that´s Burger King


----------



## lklawson (Oct 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> fun fact, when I worked at the McDs at the ferry terminal in the late 80s, we served fish n chips and clam chowder.  So they weren’t completely standardized.


Ray Kroc, bought Mccy D's from the McDonald brothers, was positively anal about standardization.  He'd make spot checks around the country to ensure that franchise holders were adhering to McDonalds menu and cooking standards.

Eventually, they realized that if they localized the menu, they could sometimes make more money (the Filet-o-Fish came from catering to Catholics, iirc) but, even to this day they still have the "Hamburger University" so that they can train people to do things "The McDonald's Way" ...standardization.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 21, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Ray Kroc, bought Mccy D's from the McDonald brothers, was positively anal about standardization.  He'd make spot checks around the country to ensure that franchise holders were adhering to McDonalds menu and cooking standards.
> 
> Eventually, they realized that if they localized the menu, they could sometimes make more money (the Filet-o-Fish came from catering to Catholics, iirc) but, even to this day they still have the "Hamburger University" so that they can train people to do things "The McDonald's Way" ...standardization.
> 
> ...


The filet-o-fish was the first thing I learned to make.


----------



## Steve (Oct 21, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Hmmm.....might get a double whopper later but that´s Burger King


They love it when you order a whopper at McDonald's.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> They love it when you order a whopper at McDonald's.


Or Chicken McNuggets at a place that's not McDonald's.


----------



## Steve (Oct 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Or Chicken McNuggets at a place that's not McDonald's.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> They love it when you order a whopper at McDonald's.


I don´t eat it often but when my son goes i love a Double whopper. brings me one back


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Anyone else work at McDs as their first job? I remember when we had to actually flip the burgers.


My first was at Baskin-Robbins. Man, that place was slow in the winter...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 21, 2021)

lklawson said:


> It was the common understanding before that.  In _Black Belt Magazine,_ 1961, Vol. 1, No. 1, in the front-page Editorial, they write:
> 
> "Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self- defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
> Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor.   Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."
> ...


That would be well into the period I'm talking about (which, admittedly, was pretty broad). I'm including the post-WWII GI's returning with their shodan. My recollection of the history is hazy, but wasn't that significant by the mid-50's?


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Warning:  This post has shocking content midway thru.  Do not read if prone to brain explosion.
> 
> Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), _punisher73_ has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."
> 
> ...


Pretty awesome post. 🙏


----------



## geezer (Oct 21, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.


Have you ever actually tried that? Don't knock it till you've tried it.  

....OK, I know the conversation has moved way beyond this comment from a few pages back, but I was just having fun imagining this technique being demonstrated on YouTube. Really worthy of _Ameri-do-te! _Or what most of the kids I grew up with practiced on the playground.


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Everything about that post was interesting and informative.  My only comment is you should aim higher than a Lawrys steakhouse.  You can do better.
> 
> Anyone else work at McDs as their first job?  I remember when we had to actually flip the burgers.
> 
> fun fact, when I worked at the McDs at the ferry terminal in the late 80s, we served fish n chips and clam chowder.  So they weren’t completely standardized.


It was the second place I worked. For one day.

They had roast beef there back then.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.


I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...


----------



## Steve (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> It was the second place I worked. For one day.
> 
> They had roast beef there back then.


I loved that job.  Not as fun at the first store I worked at, which was on "The Ave" in Seattle.  At the time, that place was pretty rough.  Lots of homeless teens, drugs, etc going on in that area.  Fortunately, a lot of the worst ruffians were my friends, but I was frequently asked to kick people out, break up fights, etc...  

The second store I worked at was great... down on University Avenue, not too far away, but on the good side of Greek row.  A lot of really pretty, frisky sorority girls going through the drive thru all the time.  They would shamelessly objectify me, but at 16, I didn't mind at all.  

In my senior year in high school, my family moved to Bainbridge Island.  I was already enrolled at Garfield in Seattle, so we just sort of didn't tell them that we had moved.  I would take the ferry across into Seattle, go to school (well, really, I would skip most days and hang out with my fellow delinquents), then work evenings at the Coleman Dock store literally in the ferry terminal and then just walk onto the ferry after work.

Those were pretty good times.  After I graduated, I got a job as a dishwasher at a place called the Streamliner Diner on the Island.  The other dishwasher was the drummer for Nirvana at the time, before they were really big.  His name was Chad, and he and I got pretty messed up after work on many occasions.    

My time on Bainbridge was relatively brief... was there for just over a year.  But man, that was the most irresponsible year of my life.


----------



## Steve (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...


I think that would just irritate a competent grappler and result in more pain for you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 21, 2021)

geezer said:


> Have you ever actually tried that? Don't knock it till you've tried it.
> 
> ....OK, I know the conversation has moved way beyond this comment from a few pages back, but I was just having fun imagining this technique being demonstrated on YouTube. Really worthy of _Ameri-do-te! _Or what most of the kids I grew up with practiced on the playground.


Pretty sure if I had @Hanzou down, he’d be able to use a nipple twister to get out.


----------



## geezer (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...


When you're twelve_ wrasslin'_ with your nine-year-old kid brother, it works like a charm!


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...



Never. Even if someone is bare-chested it's a really dumb thing to do. It's about as dumb as that scene in Enter the Dragon where the guy bites Bolo's calf in order to get out of an arm bar.

 I suppose if you're screwed and are desperately trying to escape and you've run out of options you can try it and roll the dice (like biting someone's leg). However, 99.9% of the time it's going to get you nowhere. In fact, moving your arms around unprotected in that position is exactly what a grappler *wants *you to do.

It's not considered a dominant position for nothing....


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 21, 2021)

geezer said:


> Have you ever actually tried that? Don't knock it till you've tried it.



No, because it's a surefire way to make your situation on bottom far worse. Far better to expend that effort and energy to attempt to create space in order to escape.


geezer said:


> ....OK, I know the conversation has moved way beyond this comment from a few pages back, but I was just having fun imagining this technique being demonstrated on YouTube. Really worthy of _Ameri-do-te! _Or what most of the kids I grew up with practiced on the playground.



Hence why I mentioned it. People think "Yeah, I could totally bite someone's leg or pinch someone's nipple and get out of a bad grappling position!" The reality is that BJJ and submission grappling has complex escapes because it's really not easy getting out of dominant positions. Especially if you're dealing with a bigger/stronger opponent.


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> I loved that job.  Not as fun at the first store I worked at, which was on "The Ave" in Seattle.  At the time, that place was pretty rough.  Lots of homeless teens, drugs, etc going on in that area.  Fortunately, a lot of the worst ruffians were my friends, but I was frequently asked to kick people out, break up fights, etc...
> 
> The second store I worked at was great... down on University Avenue, not too far away, but on the good side of Greek row.  A lot of really pretty, frisky sorority girls going through the drive thru all the time.  They would shamelessly objectify me, but at 16, I didn't mind at all.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there were some years like that back then.  Thankfully, we survived them.

My second job was pumping gas. Kinda fun for a kid, but in the pouring rain and freezing cold, it sucked. Then in a shoe store, then a clothing store. Suddenly I was one of the sharper dressed kids in high school.

First job in college I was Santa Claus. Fun gig. Lots of drunk college girls would come in on weekend nights to get their pic taken on Santa's lap. Next job was in a sub shop, I was there for a year, never made even one sub. My job was to answer the telephone in the back room and record sports bets.

Man, I had some crazy part time gigs in the early years.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That would be well into the period I'm talking about (which, admittedly, was pretty broad). I'm including the post-WWII GI's returning with their shodan. My recollection of the history is hazy, but wasn't that significant by the mid-50's?


Yes, it was.  Particularly following the Korean conflict.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...


You know, if your uniform included a black leather crotchless mini-hakama.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 22, 2021)

lklawson said:


> You know, if your uniform included a black leather crotchless mini-hakama.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Martialtalk... after dark.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2021)

On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;









						Rickson Gracie: Modern BJJ Black Belts Remind Me of Karate Practitioners Clueless of Jiu-Jitsu
					

Every martial art begins with real-life combat effectiveness as its top priority. As civilizations evolve and safety concerns diminish, the survival emphasis is replaced by sportive practice, and over time, the art is stripped of its combat effectiveness altogether. Jiu-jitsu has arrived at this...




					www.bjjee.com
				




Of course I think he's more upset that BJJ as a whole is moving on from his family.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 22, 2021)

It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts.  I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.

Has anyone else?  FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures.  This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell.  Same for FMA.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts.  I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.
> 
> Has anyone else?  FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures.  This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell.  Same for FMA.



TKD is pretty straight forward. It's a sport, so no one really thinks it's bullshido per se. I believe with the advent of MMA and some kick-based knock outs, the general consensus now is that TKD has some great kicks and you should combine those skills with some grappling and some hand striking.

Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.

Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...


----------



## Steve (Oct 22, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> TKD is pretty straight forward. It's a sport, so no one really thinks it's bullshido per se. I believe with the advent of MMA and some kick-based knock outs, the general consensus now is that TKD has some great kicks and you should combine those skills with some grappling and some hand striking.
> 
> Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.
> 
> Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...


Totally agree.  Application keeps things honest.  We may not like the application. We may also have varying opinions about whether the skills will transfer successfully outside of the application.  But you can’t say they don’t apply what they learn, provided they are competing.  

All that said, some schools are too deadly and seruousto compete, and that’s a red flag.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts.  I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.
> 
> Has anyone else?  FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures.  This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell.  Same for FMA.


Interesting observation.  Never thought about it before (that's why this site is valuable), but I may have a historical handle on it.  The Indian MA culture exported to Shaolin had strong elements of Zen, and a few centuries later in China, Taoism played an even bigger part in their MA.  Both these belief systems have what we'd call "mystical" qualities (although some of it was based on fact as most myths are).  So the door was open for the exotic, esoteric beliefs you are talking about to take hold.

Most of this was lost during the next export event which was to Okinawa as it combined with their native MA, _te.  _The Okinawans learning this new MA were mostly professional military or security agents, who IMO, were not as given to fanciful beliefs, depending on solid fighting skills for their life and livelihood.

The next link in the chain was the export from Okinawa to Japan.  There, karate developed into a sport and health activity taught in the public schools and sponsored by the gov't.  No need or incentive for "death touches."  From there, it was exported to Korea and I believe was initially military, then sport based as well.

FMA was born in the jungle as a combat survival skill and also, I think, far removed from the philosophical influence of the mainland Orient.

This brings us to the Western version of karate which very soon became commercialized and profit based.  Now there was an incentive to dig out all those ancient mystical techniques and, bolstered by the entertainment industry, found new life as "bullshido."  At least, that's my take on it.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts.  I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.
> 
> Has anyone else?  FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures.  This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell.  Same for FMA.



As to FMA, there is theft if styles, claims originators stole to provide their fathers the credit, and yes there are some in the park in Manila that would fall into the Mall McDojo mindset. 

And their mysticism (* Anting Anting *) is usually kept private and unknown so people don't know their secrets and try to counter. 
No Disrespect to those who follow such a path, it is not part of the FMA's I teach.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think that would just irritate a competent grappler and result in more pain for you.



You would be OK if you could escape knee on belly super effectively.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts.  I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.
> 
> Has anyone else?  FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures.  This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell.  Same for FMA.



I think there is a whole shtick they use that they invented everything.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> It just occurred to me: while no one will deny the existence of TKD and hapkido McDojangs, I've only seen bullshido associated with Japanese and Chinese martial arts.  I've never heard of Korean martial artists teaching dim mak, no-touch knockouts, etc.
> 
> Has anyone else?  FWIW, that "mystique" that Westerners perceive in Asian cultures, in my observation, seems to only limited to Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures.  This could explain why Korean bullshido would be a tougher sell.  Same for FMA.



Mmm. I don't think I've heard of Korean styles teaching no-touch knockouts and such, but I've definitely seen both some pretty dubious self-defense techniques and some very questionable claims about lineage and such.

For example, years ago, I was looking up TKD schools in a certain area for someone, and one school had a section on their website about how the school's Korean owner/grandmaster learned TKD from monks in a secret Buddhist monastary in the remote mountains of Korea in order to avenge his parents who were killed by gangsters. I think this same guy said that the monks taught him levitation. 

Edit: also, the commonly repeated claim that Taekwondo and/or Hapkido are thousands of years old ancient traditions of Korea. While that's not BS on the level of no-touch knockouts, it's still nonsense. They both postdate WWII.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 23, 2021)

The reason is simple: boxing/wrestling/etc are very basic, while Karate/TKD/etc are very complicated. Harder to mess up something basic.

When I say basic, I do not mean unsophisticated or lesser; I just mean having an arsenal of a few good punches is more rudimentary than memorizing 26 katas.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 23, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> The reason is simple: boxing/wrestling/etc are very basic, while Karate/TKD/etc are very complicated. Harder to mess up something basic.


I can't speak for boxing, but IMO the wrestling art is much more complicate than Karate/TKD/etc.

The striking art require only 1 point contact. The wrestling art requires 2, or even 3 points contact such as to use your

- left hand to pull to the south direction.
- right hand to push to the west direction.
- right leg to spring to the east direction.

To coordinate your body to move into 3 different directions at the same time is much more complicate/difficult than to land a punch on someone's face.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can't speak for boxing, but IMO the wrestling art is much more complicate than Karate/TKD/etc.
> 
> The striking art require only 1 point contact. The wrestling art requires 2, or even 3 points contact such as to use your
> 
> ...


This is very true. However, the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 24, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> This is very true. However, the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.



Wrestling well isn't a natural instinct.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 24, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> owner/grandmaster learned TKD from monks in a secret Buddhist monastary in the remote mountains of Korea in order to avenge his parents who were killed by gangsters. I think this same guy said that the monks taught him levitation.


Master Chu?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans. Throwing a proper roundhouse kick, on the other hand, not so much.


One has to learn at least 30 different principles in order to be able to defense himself well on the wrestle mat. 

*撕(Si) - Tearing 
崩(Beng) - Cracking 
捅(Tong) - Striking push 
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing 
蓋(Gai) - Covering hands 
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands 
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands 
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising 
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking 
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) – Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head
摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize
環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) – Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand*


----------



## lklawson (Oct 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;



I said this years ago and got shouted down by BJJ folks: "It isn't happening and never can happen because of how BJJ 'works'."



Hanzou said:


> Of course I think he's more upset that BJJ as a whole is moving on from his family.


I pointed out an Open Letter written by Helio himself in Black Belt Magazine complaining about the watering down of BJJ and the lowering of standards.  The BJJ folks <cough> "informed me" that it was just that Helio was butthurt over all the non-GJJ derivatives and how he didn't have control.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Oct 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Hapkido has never been widespread or popular enough to really be brought into the equation. I would say the majority of folks just haven't had enough experience with it to form an opinion one way or another. I will say that Combat Hapkido's anti MMA stuff is some of the funniest junk I've witnessed in a long time.
> 
> Though NOTHING will ever top Ving Tsun anti-grappling...











						Combat Hapkido - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Oct 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I said this years ago and got shouted down by BJJ folks: "It isn't happening and never can happen because of how BJJ 'works'."
> 
> 
> I pointed out an Open Letter written by Helio himself in Black Belt Magazine complaining about the watering down of BJJ and the lowering of standards.  The BJJ folks <cough> "informed me" that it was just that Helio was butthurt over all the non-GJJ derivatives and how he didn't have control.
> ...


I don't know how long ago that was, but you can see the McDojo business model very clearly in the Gracie Barra system, and it's been like that for a long time. 

As @drop bear correctly said:


drop bear said:


> Technically bullshido is just garbage training.
> 
> And a McDojo is a money making scheme.
> 
> So they can be independent of each other.


And others have talked about McDojo is about standardization.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't know how long ago that was,


I don't remember for sure.  Late 90's I think.  Maybe early 2K's.

I'll see if I can dig up the letter, but it was a *LONG* time ago.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 25, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> However, the very act of wrestling is indeed a natural instinct for humans.


Very true.  The world's oldest unarmed martial art is malla-yuddha, which is an Indian wrestling art.  When apes fight each other in the wild, they wrestle (and bite and scratch too, but still wrestle).


----------



## lklawson (Oct 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't know how long ago that was,



Here it is:

Black Belt Magazine, August 1996, Vol.
34, No. 8

_Grand Master Helio Gracie Speaks Out

With regard to the large number of new Jiu-Jitsu academies and instructional videos that are appearing everywhere, I consider myself very flattered by the great acceptance of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the United States. However, as the person who caused the major impact in the Jiu-Jitsu that is now practiced all over Brazil and increasingly throughout the world, I want to make clear to the practitioners worldwide that the only method of Jiu-Jitsu that I endorse is the one practiced by my sons Rorion, Relson, Rickson, Rolker, Royler, and Royce.

Outside of my sons, the only certified instructors that I endorse are those who have earned their instructor certification from me or my son Rorion at the Gracie Academy in Torrance, CA. Rorion or I are available to examine anyone's ability as an instructor of Jiu-Jitsu as well as to clarify our standards.

The purpose for this declaration is to make sure my work and the effort of my sons does not provide an opportunity for unqualified people to fool the public by misrepresenting their ability as instructors. We do not want anyone to mislead the good faith of those who are interested in studying under the teaching methods of the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy.

Students can practice Jiu-Jitsu whenever they want, wherever they want, with whomever they want. That is none of my business. But I feel professionally and ethically obligated to ensure that those students who want to train under my teaching methods know that I only endorse the teaching of my sons, and that only my eldest son Rorion has my blessing to select and prepare the instructors that will carry on the tradition and principles that I have spent my entire life upholding.

If you wish to compare our teaching methods with any other methods, please be my guest for an introductory class at the Gracie Academy. You will then have a good point of reference to make your own comparison, and I am confident that you will appreciate our higher standards.

My fondest regards to our studentds and friends throughout the world.

Helio Gracie

***Helio Gracie, mastermind behind what is today known as Gracie Jui-Jitsu (R), wears a Blue Belt in Brazil. He does this out of protest against th eproliferation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu "experts" and self-proclaimed "Gracie" stylists who are poluting the once crystal clear spring of knowledge that he perfected._









						Black Belt
					

The oldest and most respected martial arts title in the industry, this popular monthly magazine addresses the needs of martial artists of all levels by providing them with information about every style of self-defense in the world - including techniques and strategies. In addition, Black Belt...



					books.google.com
				




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I pointed out an Open Letter written by Helio himself in Black Belt Magazine complaining about the watering down of BJJ and the lowering of standards. The BJJ folks <cough> "informed me" that it was just that Helio was butthurt over all the non-GJJ derivatives and how he didn't have control.


Whatever you might think about BJJ being watered down, I do strongly believe that any such complaints from Helio were definitely due to his financial and ego motivations for running down the competition. (Even though the competition would have been members of his own family.) Helio and Rorion were at that time pushing the myth that Helio was the sole innovator who made BJJ the effective art that it is now.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Very true.  The world's oldest unarmed martial art is malla-yuddha,


You sure about that?
Egyptian wrestling dates to 3,000 B.C.


			https://www.martialtalk.com/media/beni-hassan-wrestling-tomb-art-c-3000-b-c.25366/full
		









						Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.
					

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.



					www.martialtalk.com
				











						Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.
					

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.



					www.martialtalk.com
				











						Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.
					

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.



					www.martialtalk.com
				











						Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.
					

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.



					www.martialtalk.com
				











						Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.
					

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C.



					www.martialtalk.com


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Here it is:
> 
> Black Belt Magazine, August 1996, Vol.
> 34, No. 8
> ...


Yeah, based on the date of that letter, Helio would have been largely concerned with competition from the Carlson Gracie team and possibly with Renzo Gracie as well. I can state quite unequivocally that neither of those could honestly be described as a "watering down" of the art or Helio's standards.


----------



## Steve (Oct 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Here it is:
> 
> Black Belt Magazine, August 1996, Vol.
> 34, No. 8
> ...


Reading it, that does actually sound like a "Rorion is the one true path for my jiu jitsu" letter.  I would agree with him that folks who aren't qualified to teach BJJ shouldn't do it.  

The McDojo is, I think, more like what Gracie Barra has done, though I don't think anyone would argue with the expertise of their instructors or their results.


----------



## lklawson (Oct 25, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Whatever you might think about BJJ being watered down,


To be completely honest with you, I don't worry about it too much.  When I was initially thinking about the phenomenon, back in the mid-90's, I was mostly noting how "grapppling" was suddenly being added to every school, dojo, dojang, kwoon, gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse.  I opined that the general level of grappling and groundfighting in the U.S. was being watered down and I used Helio's open letter as supporting evidence (perhaps wrongly).

It seemed a bit more relevant back then.  Now, honestly, I kinda don't care.  I'm bemused by people who think that "anti-grappling" defenses (or however they're being branded now) are worth anything, and I'm perfectly willing to tell them that if the subject comes up, but I don't usually go out looking to evangelize my opinion on it.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I do strongly believe that any such complaints from Helio were definitely due to his financial and ego motivations for running down the competition. (Even though the competition would have been members of his own family.) Helio and Rorion were at that time pushing the myth that Helio was the sole innovator who made BJJ the effective art that it is now.


That seems to be a strong possibility and I certainly won't argue against it.  There seems to be a lot of evidence to support it.  IMS, wasn't that the time period where there was a big split and conflict with the Machado's?

That said, the plain reading of Helio's open letter is complaining about the watering down of BJJ and it's hard to fault someone (me?) for thinking that it McDojo-ification might be happening in the BJJ community, or at the very least within the "ground grappling" community at large.

To be honest, I still sometimes see people teaching "ground fighting" who looks like they learned it from mixing together old tapes of Hulk Hogan and Ashida Kim.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Urban Trekker (Oct 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> You sure about that?
> Egyptian wrestling dates to 3,000 B.C.
> 
> 
> ...


If we're including martial arts that are either no longer in practice or with breaks in continuity/reconstructed (such as HEMA, etc), then we can go as far back as Sumeria.  But I'm only referring to martial arts that are still in practice today.

Of note, one thing I thought about is that we have innate apprehension when dealing with muscular men.  Given the choice between lanky opponent who is two inches taller than us with a reach advantage, and a muscular opponent who is two inches shorter where we have the reach advantage; most of us will choose the former.  That's not to say we don't get apprehensive with taller opponents too; we just view the muscles as being more dangerous than the height.  And where does muscle matter the most?  Wrestling.  If pugilism was more natural to humans, we'd be more apprehensive about the taller lanky guy.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I pointed out an Open Letter written by Helio himself in Black Belt Magazine complaining about the watering down of BJJ and the lowering of standards.  The BJJ folks <cough> "informed me" that it was just that Helio was butthurt over all the non-GJJ derivatives and how he didn't have control.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



To be fair, that is a rather accurate assessment. The Gracies aren't happy that BJJ has grown out of their direct control, and that they're no longer the drivers of BJJ's development. I have a great deal of respect for Rickson as a martial artist, but dude is sounding like the cranky old man yelling at teenagers to get off of his lawn (mat). 

The best way for Rickson to get what he wants is to produce a team of BJJ practitioners using his system to dominate the competitive sphere. He's never going to do that, so he might as well sit back and get comfortable, because BJJ isn't veering off of its current trajectory any time soon.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 25, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Very true.  The world's oldest unarmed martial art is malla-yuddha, which is an Indian wrestling art.  When apes fight each other in the wild, they wrestle (and bite and scratch too, but still wrestle).


That's actually a good example. Most mammals seem to know three things by heart: wrestling, biting, and clawing (in the context of fighting ), with some knowing how to kick. I think this is why animal Kung Fu became a thing, i.e. to emulate fighting techniques that clearly work well for wild animals.


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## Buka (Oct 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> On a related note, Rickson Gracie seems to agree with BJJ becoming McDonaldized;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think he really cares.  When I first trained with him he told me, "I'm not going to teach you Gracie Jujitsu per se, I'l going to teach you how to use Ju-jitsu on the ground so you may better use your striking skills while on the ground. And that's what he did. 

When I first moved to Maui, I joined a Rickson Gracie Ju-Jitsu school. It was run by Rickson's first black belt, Romalo Barros. The school was called Rickson Gracie Free Style Ju-Jitsu. When Rickson would visit it was a lot of fun. When speaking he would always refer to it as "Jiu-Jitsu", never Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

My guess is it had something to do with him and Rorian, I know they were frequently at odds over....whatever.

I've met a lot of Jiu-Jitsu men from Brazil. And I can tell you one thing for certain, they only care about three things. Jiu-Jitsu, women, and surfing. That's it, that's the list.


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## WaterGal (Oct 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> The McDojo is, I think, more like what Gracie Barra has done, though I don't think anyone would argue with the expertise of their instructors or their results.



I've never been to a Gracie Barra school, but my understanding is that they're a successful franchise. Is that what you mean?

The term "McDojo" gets used to refer to both "a school that uses repeatable business processes to train instructors, enroll students, and make a decent amount of money" and "a school that waters down what they teach until it's useless". Sometimes, martial arts schools do both, but not always. 

I think that a BJJ school could be well-suited to be the first kind of McDojo, and I'm guessing that's what you're saying about Gracie Barra. But maybe not the second kind.


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> I've never been to a Gracie Barra school, but my understanding is that they're a successful franchise. Is that what you mean?
> 
> The term "McDojo" gets used to refer to both "a school that uses repeatable business processes to train instructors, enroll students, and make a decent amount of money" and "a school that waters down what they teach until it's useless". Sometimes, martial arts schools do both, but not always.
> 
> I think that a BJJ school could be well-suited to be the first kind of McDojo, and I'm guessing that's what you're saying about Gracie Barra. But maybe not the second kind.


Exactly.  They standardize everything, have a very specific curriculum, require students to all purchase their gis, and are very tribal.  And the model has worked very well for them.  

I don't think their results have suffered.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> I don't think he really cares.  When I first trained with him he told me, "I'm not going to teach you Gracie Jujitsu per se, I'l going to teach you how to use Ju-jitsu on the ground so you may better use your striking skills while on the ground. And that's what he did.
> 
> When I first moved to Maui, I joined a Rickson Gracie Ju-Jitsu school. It was run by Rickson's first black belt, Romalo Barros. The school was called Rickson Gracie Free Style Ju-Jitsu. When Rickson would visit it was a lot of fun. When speaking he would always refer to it as "Jiu-Jitsu", never Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
> 
> ...


I don't know Buka... His recent interviews seem kind of bitter about the present state of BJJ.


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## Buka (Oct 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I don't know Buka... His recent interviews seem kind of bitter about the present state of BJJ.


I think it’s because he feels that most people aren’t training hard enough.

His recent book, Breathe, is a good read. If you get a chance, check it out.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 26, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> That's actually a good example. Most mammals seem to know three things by heart: wrestling, biting, and clawing (in the context of fighting ), with some knowing how to kick. I think this is why animal Kung Fu became a thing, i.e. to emulate fighting techniques that clearly work well for wild animals.


I would say it’s not wrestling in the way we humans tend to think of it.  

As someone who practices an animal style, in my experience we are not trying to emulate the animal, not imitating their techniques.  Yes, there is an inspiration taken from the animal, but it isn’t with the desire to imitate and fight like the animal fights.  People are built differently from animals and cannot imitate animal techniques and expect similar results.  But sometimes a principle of movement or strategy stands out, and the methodology can be built upon that. 

I practice a Crane method.  We do not stand on one foot, wave our arms about like they are wings, and strike with the fingertip “Crane beak”.  That just isn’t how the method works.  We punch and kick like everybody else.  We just have our rather unique way of developing our techniques.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 26, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say it’s not wrestling in the way we humans tend to think of it.
> 
> As someone who practices an animal style, in my experience we are not trying to emulate the animal, not imitating their techniques.  Yes, there is an inspiration taken from the animal, but it isn’t with the desire to imitate and fight like the animal fights.  People are built differently from animals and cannot imitate animal techniques and expect similar results.  But sometimes a principle of movement or strategy stands out, and the methodology can be built upon that.
> 
> I practice a Crane method.  We do not stand on one foot, wave our arms about like they are wings, and strike with the fingertip “Crane beak”.  That just isn’t how the method works.  We punch and kick like everybody else.  We just have our rather unique way of developing our techniques.


In a crane style though, would there not be a strong focus on balance and accuracy?
Would a tiger style not dedicate much of its training to strength? Or a mantis style focus on speed? Very true, we cannot directly imitate animals, we can only emulate them. But with that being said, is the instinct of very quickly and aggressively grabbing something not the same in a human as it is any other mammal?

Watch how two dogs growl at each other and then suddenly pounce, going into a mindless, disorganized brawl of grabbing and clawing. Then watch how two people having a verbal disagreement slowly walk toward each other, calm and relaxed, and then suddenly start throwing wild punches while simultaneously grabbing each other. You will see that it is pretty much the same thing.

This is why I believe in the following logic, which I have seen quite a lot on martial arts forums: when you train, do the techniques you train to do, but when you get into a fight with someone dangerous, just wail on the opponent like a maniac and hope for the best.


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## Steve (Oct 26, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> In a crane style though, would there not be a strong focus on balance and accuracy?
> Would a tiger style not dedicate much of its training to strength? Or a mantis style focus on speed? Very true, we cannot directly imitate animals, we can only emulate them. But with that being said, is the instinct of very quickly and aggressively grabbing something not the same in a human as it is any other mammal?
> 
> Watch how two dogs growl at each other and then suddenly pounce, going into a mindless, disorganized brawl of grabbing and clawing. Then watch how two people having a verbal disagreement slowly walk toward each other, calm and relaxed, and then suddenly start throwing wild punches while simultaneously grabbing each other. You will see that it is pretty much the same thing.
> ...


I love this scene from Fantastic Mr. Fox that exemplifies what you're talking about:


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> In a crane style though, would there not be a strong focus on balance and accuracy?



No, not any more than anyone else.  Those are useful traits, of course, but we don’t focus on them in any overly special way.  Martial training ought to develop them in an appropriate way, regardless. 

I have seen descriptions of the “five animals” in Chinese martial arts, and folk traditions, and there can be this kind of description that ascribes certain traits to the animal.  That is all well and fine on an intellectual and theoretical level but i do not believe it translates directly into the animal styles, i spite of what some folks claim.  But in my experience, in my particular Crane method (Tibetan) that has no bearing.  We do not do special exercises for balance or accuracy outside of our regular martial training.  Like I said, we punch and kick like all the rest. 



> Would a tiger style not dedicate much of its training to strength? Or a mantis style focus on speed?



I haven’t trained in them so I cannot say for certain.  But if so, not really to copy or “become” the animal.  I don’t know what specific traits Tiger method uses, other than the claw hand which is not unique to that method.  Certainly a human cannot move like a tiger and cannot develop the strength of a tiger.  A smaller person can practice tiger, one does not need to be big and strong to do tiger.  So that isn’t it.



> Very true, we cannot directly imitate animals, we can only emulate them. But with that being said, is the instinct of very quickly and aggressively grabbing something not the same in a human as it is any other mammal?



Perhaps.  But humans have developed methodologies as well as rule sets that may apply under certain circumstances.  Watching animals fight can have things in common with human wrestling, but it is certainly not the same thing.  When chimpanzees fight with killing intent, they bite, rip, tear, pound and smash along with that grabbing and “grappling”.  It looks nothing like a BJJ match, for example, and it ranges all across the forest as the combatants move and engage and disengage and engage again. 



> Watch how two dogs growl at each other and then suddenly pounce, going into a mindless, disorganized brawl of grabbing and clawing. Then watch how two people having a verbal disagreement slowly walk toward each other, calm and relaxed, and then suddenly start throwing wild punches while simultaneously grabbing each other. You will see that it is pretty much the same thing.



Mm…kind of.  I see what you are saying but I don’t really agree that it is the same thing. 


> This is why I believe in the following logic, which I have seen quite a lot on martial arts forums: when you train, do the techniques you train to do, but when you get into a fight with someone dangerous, just wail on the opponent like a maniac and hope for the best.


well, I believe that in the chaos of real combat, the quality and cleanness of your technique will degrade rapidly.  That is why we practice as perfectly as we can, so that when it degrades, there is still enough integrity to be effective.


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## angelariz (Oct 31, 2021)

7BallZ said:


> I was watching The Karate Kid series and indeed the film series portray just how abusive, fraudulent, and outright inaccurate teaachings of rival McDojos  Miyagi and Daniel faces. Don't even get me started how they take the rival school wars to ridiculous extent that it is already flatout entering illegal territory.
> 
> The SCARIEST and WORST part is some of the rival schools they faced are genuine winners of local tournaments and at least got the physical training aspect correct in many way s(although still dumbed down in that they lacked many components of classical training like weight lifting and killing techniques).
> 
> ...


I've seen mcdojos of all types. When mma gained popularity Villar and tkd schools started advertising mma classes.


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## drop bear (Nov 1, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> No, not any more than anyone else.  Those are useful traits, of course, but we don’t focus on them in any overly special way.  Martial training ought to develop them in an appropriate way, regardless.
> 
> I have seen descriptions of the “five animals” in Chinese martial arts, and folk traditions, and there can be this kind of description that ascribes certain traits to the animal.  That is all well and fine on an intellectual and theoretical level but i do not believe it translates directly into the animal styles, i spite of what some folks claim.  But in my experience, in my particular Crane method (Tibetan) that has no bearing.  We do not do special exercises for balance or accuracy outside of our regular martial training.  Like I said, we punch and kick like all the rest.
> 
> ...



This sort of discussion is kind of why western MA. doesn't have as big a McDojo phenomenon.

Basically we have some sort of discussion about animal forms and their legitimacy.

And so both sides are waxing lyrical about all reasons why it is logical that they would work. Or not. Or whatever. I wasn't paying that much attention.

Where western martial arts just do.

To find out you would literally just fight the guy in one shape or form. The amazing back story kind of becomes irrelevant.

It is two completely different mindsets.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2021)

drop bear said:


> This sort of discussion is kind of why western MA. doesn't have as big a McDojo phenomenon.
> 
> Basically we have some sort of discussion about animal forms and their legitimacy.
> 
> ...



My question is this;






Why can't I see videos like this of traditional kung fu animal styles, where I can see them working in a practical manner with loads of clear applications to actual fighting? Here we have a BJJ instructor rolling with a professional MMA fighter that he helps train who is larger, heavier, and more powerful than he is.

A simple, clear display of a martial art's efficacy.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 12, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I have seen descriptions of the “five animals” in Chinese martial arts, and folk traditions, and there can be this kind of description that ascribes certain traits to the animal. That is all well and fine on an intellectual and theoretical level but i do not believe it translates directly into the animal styles, i spite of what some folks claim.


Tigers utilize their power in fighting.  George Foreman did also.  So, can't we say he fought with Tiger style?  Sugar Ray Leonard used speed and evasion.  Did he not emulate Crane style?  Maybe Ali fought like a Butterfly and a Bee.  Joe Frasier used "Buffalo" style (my own term).  Neither fighter sought to "become" the animal.  It was not a conscious decision.  That was just the way they fought.  It fit their physique and personality.  Their fighting style came first.  Any animal connotation to it came after as a description.

CMA animal styles are different in that the named fighting style came first and afterwords, the practitioners sought to adapt to that animal's "style."  Here, it was their decision to train and fight in that particular way.  But if that given animal style did not harmonize with the fighter's natural style, effectiveness would surely suffer.  Not sure if the above comparissons have any profound meaning - just a personal intellectual observation.

Maybe the animal's physical technique is not the main consideration.  Maybe it's just our perceived _spirit_ of the animal we adopt and anthropormorphize it into a named animal style, imagining we are a tiger, monkey, crane, etc.  If it helps energize and fortify us in a fight, it's a plus.  

In "Rock-Paper-Scissors" one always trumps the other.  Not so in MA styles.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Here we have a BJJ instructor rolling with a professional MMA fighter ...


There is nothing wrong about the animal style.

- BJJ guys fight like octopus.
- My guys fight like rhino.


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> My question is this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Practical application is not only not part of their tool set.but so much not part of their tool set that they can't even tell it doesn't exist.

And so their is a huge gap in people's ability to reason a subject to a conclusion.


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is nothing wrong about the animal style.
> 
> - BJJ guys fight like octopus.
> - My guys fight like rhino.
> ...



I only just got how that picture is a massive dig at the ground is my ocean crowd.

Well done.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 13, 2021)

I just response to the ORIGINAL post #1:

Those are MOVIES. Don't take it too serious!!! You really think "Wax on, wax off....." works? It's just a movie.


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I just response to the ORIGINAL post #1:
> 
> Those are MOVIES. Don't take it too serious!!! You really think "Wax on, wax off....." works? It's just a movie.
> 
> ...



 We have such good access to these guys as well. There is so much out there that you only have to go a couple of steps down and you access top quality martial artists. 

Who will train with you for virtually nothing. 

One tier off a UFC fighter and you are getting a guy who is probably competing as a second job. Who may have had 50 fights in three or four disciplines. 

Who will train you for almost nothing. 

Go find some of the 2nd tier bare knuckle guys. Think of the wealth of practical experience they have. That honestly half of them would give away.


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2021)

Too hard to chase down.


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## Hanzou (Nov 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is nothing wrong about the animal style.



I would like to see someone legitimately use one of them in a fighting situation. Whether that situation be sport, or self defense.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> - BJJ guys fight like octopus.
> - My guys fight like rhino.
> 
> View attachment 27581



Interestingly, one of my favorite Guards is the Octopus Guard.....


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