# Brazilian Jiujitsu and Normal Juijitsu.....what are the differences.



## Cobra (Apr 29, 2004)

For all the time I've done BJJ, I still not necessarily sure on what is the differences between the two art. I've heard it is more stand up grappling and some striking but I'm not sure. What are the differnce between BJJ and 
Normal JJ?

Also, which one would you prefer and why (give a good reason, not because it just is or whatever).


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## MJS (Apr 29, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> For all the time I've done BJJ, I still not necessarily sure on what is the differences between the two art. I've heard it is more stand up grappling and some striking but I'm not sure. What are the differnce between BJJ and
> Normal JJ?
> 
> Also, which one would you prefer and why (give a good reason, not because it just is or whatever).



Your 'normal ju jitsu' as you're calling it, seems to focus more on the standing aspect, while BJJ primarily focuses on the ground.  It also includes your standing grappling such as the clinch.  

As for which one I prefer.  I get my locking and controlling from my Arnis training.  The BJJ helps round out my clinch work as well as the ground work.

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 1, 2004)

Thinking of it in these terms helps me keep them seperate.

"Normal" jujutsu = Japanse Jujutsu: "Oh Crap! I dropped my sword, but you still have one." This leads to a set of techniques that focus on bypassing the brunt of an attack (sowrd strike), then seizing and controlling the guy who still has a sword by entangling the joints of his body (usually wrists, elbows, shoulders, & neck) and bending them in un-natural directions.  In time, the sword has been replaced by the right cross or beer bottle.

Brazilian Jiu Jutsu: "I know something you don't know". Martial arts took stand-up fighting to an Nth degree of sophistication. The Gracies come along with Old Judo, blended with positional transitions from wrestling, and pull the poor karate guys to the floor where they can't use their really cool moves, then choke them till they turn funny colors. An analogy I loved from the early days of BJJ, used by guys who switched in from other martial arts, "It's like the martial arts is a three-sided fortress with the back wall missing, but nobody ever noticed it wasn't there until the Gracies slipped in from behind and stormed the castle, easily.  We just simply forgot about that wall."

If you had to fight a shark, you would probably prefer to stay on land where the shark is at a strategic and mechanical disadvantage. The Brazilian JJ = shark in the water, trying to pull you into the tank to have their way with you. 

Japanese JJ = somethine really useful to know. Not a lot of guys with swords out there, but tire irons and ball bats are still an option for the less-than-honorable.

Search the web and read a bunch; there's a lot of stuff out there on both.

D.


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## KumaSan (May 2, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka: I hope you don't mind if I use that. I'll give full credit. I've tried to explain the difference to people in the past, but most dont' seem to care as soon as I try to explain the similarities between BJJ and Judo.

Most judoka know (superficially) the general BJJ moves. But because of the rules of a Judo match, the emphasis is on the stand-up throwing skills, not the on the mat submission skills.


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## MJS (May 2, 2004)

Another good example regarding the different styles would be Small Circle JJ, that is taught by Wally Jay.  While he does focus a little on the ground, the majority of his material is taught standing.  BJJ does have its share of SD techs. but again, the main idea of that art is the ground.

Mike


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## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> For all the time I've done BJJ, I still not necessarily sure on what is the differences between the two art. I've heard it is more stand up grappling and some striking but I'm not sure. What are the differnce between BJJ and
> Normal JJ?
> 
> Also, which one would you prefer and why (give a good reason, not because it just is or whatever).



Don't always believe what you read, beacuse there's a lot of myths more than actual truth. Example Helio Gracie (Brother of the Founder/Creator of Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu "Carlos" says he's the Founder/Creator & Grandmaster of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" , his son Rorion while was in the USA in their first years he did something I forgot what it was called so that nobody could use the name Gracie Jiu-jitsu and he called his stuff Gracie JiuJitsu, and so the others didn't wanna name their art Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but they had to because Rorion would sue them or if they wanted to use the name I guess pay him, when he had no rights for that long story I'm not good at this part. But again , if you would believe them you would think another thing of BJJ, if you believe the actual truth . The current Grandmaster is Carlson son of Carlos. 

helio/rorion are like the evil side as I heard


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## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Another good example regarding the different styles would be Small Circle JJ, that is taught by Wally Jay.  While he does focus a little on the ground, the majority of his material is taught standing.  BJJ does have its share of SD techs. but again, the main idea of that art is the ground.
> 
> Mike



Well I don't know I hear some stories saying GJJ/BJJ was created not to hurt the opponent but to throw him down and hurt him there but not strike wise. But then how is it suppose to work if you not gonna hurt ? 

Some BJJ instructors teach these some do not, 
BJJ is 
Sport JiuJitsu
Valetudo
Self-Defense 

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu gives you the means to win every fight, there where it usually ends, on the ground 
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was developed in the begin of last century in Brazil. The Gracie family transformed the old art of Japanese Jiu-Jitsu in an effective fighting art. The Gracies developed Jiu-Jitsu in the very agressive enviroment of Rio de Janeiro into an incredible martial art. 
Nowadays, Jiu-Jitsu is one of the most popular sports in Brazil 
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu teaches you 3 aspects: 



The sport of Brazilian jiu-jitsu  
 is the fastest growing sport of martial arts in the world. The students test their techniques and skills against students from other Jiu-Jitsu academies. In this part of Jiu-Jitsu no striking of any kind is allowed, they have to rely on the finishing techniques learned at their respective schools. It is very similar to the sport of Judo, only differing by the rules, Judo rules are made for the sport aspect while Jiu-Jitsu rules and point system are based on the most important positions one would like or need to achieve in a real fight. 
Jiu-Jitsu tournaments are very exciting and different from other sports. Jiu-jitsu fights don't stop to start over again, so they don't take away the reality of the fight and determine who could win without being interrupted. 


Vale Tudo (anything goes in Portuguese) made Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu famous around the world. 
Before Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, everybody thaught that the incredible kicks and punches of the movies were the real deal. Choreographed stunts are a far deal from the thruth however. In general it was also thaught impossible for a smaller person to defeat a stronger and bigger person 
The UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship, the (in)famous cage fights) changed all this and showed for the first time to a large public on tv real(istic) fights. Royce Gracie, who represented Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in these fights, overtook with ease all of his mostly bigger and stronger opponents. He did this by bringing his opponents to the ground and making them submit by means of a choke or submission holds like armbars. 
There still excists people who believe that the flying en lethal kicks from the movies are for real, but Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu showed the world what 'techniek over power' means. 



Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu teaches you the best defenses against some common situations you might find yourself in in real life


Thats waht I read . But again not all BJJ instructors teach the same


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## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu New Zealand are clubs that are affiliated with John Will and the Will/Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Australia organisation. 
Information about John and the BJJ Australia organisation can be found at www.bjj.com.au

Each of the clubs in New Zealand are run by very different individuals, all of BJJ N.Z's coaches have backgrounds in various stand up martial arts disciplines and have realised the effectiveness and relevance of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and incorporated it into their training regime. Our coach's background's and training history enables them to offer a wide range of Martial Arts skills and multi-range fight strategies that include

Standing strikes and counters
Clinches and takedowns
Ground fighting
Restraints and controls
Unarmed self defence. 


What is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ)? 
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is essentially a grappling art. It uses joint manipulation, chokes, strangulations and positional controls to overwhelm and subdue opponents with out the need to kick or punch. 

It is new to our country with very few real clubs operating in New Zealand today. BJJ NZ is the only place to train Will/Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in New Zealand. 

In real combat, versus any other fighting style, it is extremely effective. It involves joint manipulation, chokes, immobilization and attack and escape timing.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Don't always believe what you read, beacuse there's a lot of myths more than actual truth. Example Helio Gracie (Brother of the Founder/Creator of Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu "Carlos" says he's the Founder/Creator & Grandmaster of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" , his son Rorion while was in the USA in their first years he did something I forgot what it was called so that nobody could use the name Gracie Jiu-jitsu and he called his stuff Gracie JiuJitsu, and so the others didn't wanna name their art Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but they had to because Rorion would sue them or if they wanted to use the name I guess pay him, when he had no rights for that long story I'm not good at this part. But again , if you would believe them you would think another thing of BJJ, if you believe the actual truth . The current Grandmaster is Carlson son of Carlos.
> 
> helio/rorion are like the evil side as I heard


Kinduva baby with the bathwater, thing.  Yes, Rorion DID tredemark "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" in the US, and basically screwed over many cousins and friends who came to the US to capitalize on their knowledge (hence the phrase BJJ, instead of GJJ).  If you're very close to the Machado's, then you probably already know how/why they split from Rorion's crew via a debate btw Norris/UFAF and GJJ Torrance over the prices for assistance at a UFAF seminar/series.  Eventually led to Norris & Machado's becoming close, and the Machado's inviting a penny-pinching Rorion to take a flying leap. Some of Rorions own brothers went their seperate ways for the same reason...one gets all the credit/glory/cash, while the others do all the work.  Family is very important in Brazil, though, and they are all quite capable of making distinctions bte business decisions, and family ties. Don't let the feud gossip confuse you; they're all still brothers and cousins, and surf toghether whenever the chance presents itself.   Does that make Helio the evil Darth vader of GJJ?  Nah. Just the first to really make it big on US shores, with an art nobody heard of prior to them coming up.


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## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

Is Helio really the Grandmaster of GJJ? 

The Founder/Creator?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Is Helio really the Grandmaster of GJJ?
> 
> The Founder/Creator?


No.  He even states in his own bio that he put a spin on some of the techs because he was not as large or athletic as his brothers (i.e., Carlos, Oslo).  Carlos had the school; Helio, weak and small, would sit and watch the classes each night.  One night, Carlos doesn't show, so Helio steps in and starts teaching classes...never having trained in one.

Time goes by, Helio gets good, and the 1st generation of Gracie Bros. start issuing challenge matches throughout Brazil.  Carlos & Helio, working together. Even the "feuding" cousins trained under each others dads/uncles.  Some of Helio's boys would go roll with Carlos, and Carlos' kids would go roll with Helio.  Helio got a brief upper hand in the PR dept. by "siring" 2 of the national hero-level GJJ greats; Rolls & Rickson...both of whom trained with a couple of the oldsters, as well as with their cousins and friends of the family who were betters and equals.

Torrance propaganda is geared to make money for Rorian.  In the process, he has alienated some (truly), and just made business enemies with others...by and large, though, they still greet with hugs and shoot the shyte in Portugese.


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## CrushingFist (May 14, 2004)

Well you're saying the truth

But check Rorion's site and the IGFFk or IGGFK 1 of those is the correct spelling where it says GRANDMASTER HELIO . Saying he is the creator and founder of GJJ


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Well you're saying the truth
> 
> But check Rorion's site and the IGFFk or IGGFK 1 of those is the correct spelling where it says GRANDMASTER HELIO . Saying he is the creator and founder of GJJ


Precisely what one should expect from a well-aimed business/marketing maneuver.

D.


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## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Well I don't know I hear some stories saying GJJ/BJJ was created not to hurt the opponent but to throw him down and hurt him there but not strike wise. But then how is it suppose to work if you not gonna hurt ?



Not sure where you heard that!  Royce Gracie fought in a UFC event against Ron Van Cleif (sp)  His father told him to work submission rather than hurting his opp.  I believe that this was done out of respect for Ron.  BJJ does have striking, although most of it has recently been added due to the crosstraining trend!!  BJJ was modified from trad. Japanese JJ.  The techs. are designed to use leverage over strength due to the fact that Helio is a small man.  He used his tech. to win over a bigger and stronger person.

Mike


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## CrushingFist (May 15, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Not sure where you heard that!  Royce Gracie fought in a UFC event against Ron Van Cleif (sp)  His father told him to work submission rather than hurting his opp.  I believe that this was done out of respect for Ron.  BJJ does have striking, although most of it has recently been added due to the crosstraining trend!!  BJJ was modified from trad. Japanese JJ.  The techs. are designed to use leverage over strength due to the fact that Helio is a small man.  He used his tech. to win over a bigger and stronger person.
> 
> Mike



WEll I'm tall 6'2 but I ain't big in weigh, so that helps me ? or am I considered big? can a big use this art in advantage or works better for small?


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## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> WEll I'm tall 6'2 but I ain't big in weigh, so that helps me ? or am I considered big? can a big use this art in advantage or works better for small?



BJJ can be used by everyone.  As I said, Helio modified the techs. for HIS body, due to the fact that he was small, but that does not mean that a big, tall person couldnt do them.  Rather than rely on size and strength, you are relying on skill and tech. which IMO, is much better.  Why fight to get a lock on, while at the same time, making yoruself very tired, when you can get the proper basics and tech. and apply that lock with much more ease??  

Getting your position is the *FIRST* thing that you should do!  Without that, all of the chokes and locks are meaningless.  You can't apply any of them if you cant maintain a good position.

Mike


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## CrushingFist (May 15, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> BJJ can be used by everyone.  As I said, Helio modified the techs. for HIS body, due to the fact that he was small, but that does not mean that a big, tall person couldnt do them.  Rather than rely on size and strength, you are relying on skill and tech. which IMO, is much better.  Why fight to get a lock on, while at the same time, making yoruself very tired, when you can get the proper basics and tech. and apply that lock with much more ease??
> 
> Getting your position is the *FIRST* thing that you should do!  Without that, all of the chokes and locks are meaningless.  You can't apply any of them if you cant maintain a good position.
> 
> Mike



Thanks. so it works better for a smaller person than a tall?


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## MJS (May 15, 2004)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> Thanks. so it works better for a smaller person than a tall?



Let me explain again.  It works for both!!  Royce is taller than his father and he has no problem.  The difference between the way Helio and his sons do their techs. and someone from a different Gracie branch such as Carlson Gracie Sr and Jr. is the way the techs. are applied.  Carlson Gracies group tends to rely more on strength and muscle to apply the tech. 

They are still effective, but think about it.  Are you going to have an easier time if YOU dont have to use as much energy???  I would think so.

So...again, to answer your question....It works for both!!!

Mike


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## CrushingFist (May 15, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Let me explain again.  It works for both!!  Royce is taller than his father and he has no problem.  The difference between the way Helio and his sons do their techs. and someone from a different Gracie branch such as Carlson Gracie Sr and Jr. is the way the techs. are applied.  Carlson Gracies group tends to rely more on strength and muscle to apply the tech.
> 
> They are still effective, but think about it.  Are you going to have an easier time if YOU dont have to use as much energy???  I would think so.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Yea less use of energy as possible


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## gusano (May 28, 2004)

Jiu-Jitsu was the martial art of Japan and consisted of every "school". Some schools focused on striking more and others more on ground grappling. Jiu-Jitsu included everything from eye-gouging to kicking. During the modernization of Japan, the samurai and warlords were no longer needed and were gradually replaced by a more modern Army with firearms, etc. Jiu-Jitsu was no longer needed for survival but was still kept alive by avid practitioners. These practitioners developed katas as a means of practicing the lethal forms of martial arts techniques without hurting their training partners.   

Jigoro Kano (1860-1938) was an accomplished jiu-jitsu player in several classical styles, especially Kito ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo ryu, who decided that he wanted to practice more realistically and so he eliminated many of the "lethal" techniques from training. He limited his techniques to chokes and arm locks and his students trained with full power using their "non-lethal" techniques on fully resisting opponents. This is the birth of Judo and Kano opens his own school, the Kodokan in the early 1880's.

Around 1886 the Tokyo Police were looking for an effective martial art to train their members in. An open martial arts tournament was held and various schools of classical jiu-jitsu vied for the honor of training the police force. The Kodokan students won nearly every match and Judo became the prominent fighting form in Japan. Kanos training methods had been vindicated.

One of Kanos best students was Mitsuyo Maeda (1878-1941). He had originally trained in classical jiu-jitsu and switched to the Kodokan and became well known for his skill. Maeda was a world traveler and faught in many challenge matches where he used jiu-jitsu techniques not allowed in Judo training. He insisted on calling his fighting style jiu-jitsu and not Judo.
Maeda's fighting recored made him a legend in Central and south America. he also fought in England, The United States, and Spain where he took on the name Count Koma.

Maeda returned to Brasil in early 1920's when Japan was attempting a colonization project. He befriended locol politician Gastao Gracie, and later taught Gastao's son Carlos jiu-jitsu. Carlos taught his brothers and his children and the brothers taught their children and so on. The family had many members to train with and develop and refine their version of what today is called Gracie or Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu. The Gracies added many techniques to their training that are illegal in Judo. The result is a highly effective system for a one on one fight. None of the Gracies were big men and they have perfected the art of clinching, taking down, and finishing an opponent to a science.

Kano, Maeda, and the Gracies realized that the effectiveness of a martial art is not determined solely by it's repetoire of techniques, but also by the training method by which it is instilled into the students.

See 'Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Theory and Technique'.


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## Danjo (Jun 6, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> No. He even states in his own bio that he put a spin on some of the techs because he was not as large or athletic as his brothers (i.e., Carlos, Oslo). Carlos had the school; Helio, weak and small, would sit and watch the classes each night. One night, Carlos doesn't show, so Helio steps in and starts teaching classes...never having trained in one.
> 
> Time goes by, Helio gets good, and the 1st generation of Gracie Bros. start issuing challenge matches throughout Brazil. Carlos & Helio, working together. Even the "feuding" cousins trained under each others dads/uncles. Some of Helio's boys would go roll with Carlos, and Carlos' kids would go roll with Helio. Helio got a brief upper hand in the PR dept. by "siring" 2 of the national hero-level GJJ greats; Rolls & Rickson...both of whom trained with a couple of the oldsters, as well as with their cousins and friends of the family who were betters and equals.
> 
> Torrance propaganda is geared to make money for Rorian. In the process, he has alienated some (truly), and just made business enemies with others...by and large, though, they still greet with hugs and shoot the shyte in Portugese.


It seems, however, that when Helio's group give their version that they say that Carlos was the first to learn JJ, but that he did nothing to modify it, and that Helio was the true modifier and thus creator of BJJ. However, when you read interviews with Carley Gracie (who claims that he was never defeated even inside the Gracie family) he says that he learned everything from his father Carlos, and it was in fact Carlos that did the majority of modifications and was the first one to start the Gracie challenge and win the challenge matches in Brazil. Oslo also fought challenge matches before Helio. This is more than a slight difference of opinion. It is an attempt to rewrite history rather completely. In The Gracie Way, they make Carlos out to have been a nice, sage, moderately skilled martial artist, who knew a great deal about herbs and diet. But Helio, however, was supposedly the great inovator etc. Now, one other point: in every picture I have seen, Carlos is smaller than Helio both in terms of height and build. How is it that it would be Helio that would need to develop the techniques to take advantage of his smaller size?


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## gusano (Jun 6, 2004)

The "BJJ" or Gracie jiu-jitsu that you see today is a result of the collective training and innovation of Carlos Sr. as well as all of his brothers and children and nephews, etc. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is still eveolving and changing for the better to this day. To say that Carlos Sr. took an art and refined it and THEN taught it to his brothers etc. is not accurate in my opinion. Carlos was originally taught "jiu-jitsu" by Maeda, but the Gracie family has it's own distinct version of it as they have practiced it over the years in Brasil isolated from Japan. I am sure that Helio contributed to it as well because they were all training together.


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## Danjo (Jun 7, 2004)

I would say that that is probably correct. I'm sure that they have all had a hand in it. It is just as unlikey, to me, to think that Helio alone created Gracie JJ.


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## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I would say that that is probably correct. I'm sure that they have all had a hand in it. It is just as unlikey, to me, to think that Helio alone created Gracie JJ.


Helio ALONE did not create Gracie Jiu-Jitsu but he was the one who modified Jiu-Jitsu of that what Carlos Gracie taught him, he was the one who sucked out some of that traditionalism in the original Japanese art and modernized it with the help of his fellow family members.


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## Gaston (Jul 18, 2004)

Good post, there are however a few areas I have different views on. Therefore this quote has been modified and I have added my views in blue so there is no confusion.






			
				gusano said:
			
		

> Jiu-Jitsu was the martial art of





			
				gusano said:
			
		

> Japan and consisted of every "school". Some schools focused on striking more and others more on ground grappling. Jiu-Jitsu included everything from eye-gouging to kicking. These practitioners developed katas as a means of practicing the lethal forms of martial arts techniques without hurting their training partners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






No offence is intended only a slightly different opinion to consider. Humans have been grappling in some form or another for ever. So regardless who came up with it first or where they learned I for one am glad they did, and more so that they passed it on to us.

Gaston


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## gusano (Jul 18, 2004)

Gaston said:
			
		

> No offence is intended only a slightly different opinion to consider. Humans have been grappling in some form or another for ever. So regardless who came up with it first or where they learned I for one am glad they did, and more so that they passed it on to us.
> 
> Gaston


I agree 100% with your edited version of my original post. I was not trying to say that "they alone" perfected *grappling.* The post itself was about the origin and evolution of* BJJ. *Grappling is the oldest martial art and as such has been around much longer than BJJ!


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## Gaston (Jul 18, 2004)

Thanks for keeping an open mind, its' that mental versatility that aids our grappling skills as well. Have you posted any other posts that you feel display the same creativity? I am always curious about other grapplers views. 



Gaston


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## Brother John (Jul 21, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Thinking of it in these terms helps me keep them seperate.
> 
> "Normal" jujutsu = Japanse Jujutsu: "Oh Crap! I dropped my sword, but you still have one." This leads to a set of techniques that focus on bypassing the brunt of an attack (sowrd strike), then seizing and controlling the guy who still has a sword by entangling the joints of his body (usually wrists, elbows, shoulders, & neck) and bending them in un-natural directions.  In time, the sword has been replaced by the right cross or beer bottle.
> 
> ...


I LOVED these analogies.
Especially the "Oh Crap, I dropped my sword!" Bit. 
I'd bet some thought it was a battle-cry!!!

Your Brother
John


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## Shogun (Jul 23, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *CrushingFist*
> _WEll I'm tall 6'2 but I ain't big in weigh, so that helps me ? or am I considered big? can a big use this art in advantage or works better for small?_


Just take a look at Frank Mir. 6'3" 250 lbs. He is a big guy and he does BJJ perfectly.


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