# Recent issues



## Headhunter (May 15, 2017)

So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. But my main problem is there are 4 other higher dan black belts than me there but they spend their time working with each other and training leaving me and another brown belt to teach the younger students. Like I said I'm not bitching about helping out and I'm happy to if there's ever bad numbers but literally every session I'm roped into it while the higher black belts workout together and frankly I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.


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## Flying Crane (May 15, 2017)

You are right, you are being taken advantage of.  A very direct discussion needs to happen between yourself and the owner, and in my opinion, you are owed a refund for your tuition during this time period at the very least, and back wages quite possibly.

There is often a culture in martial arts where students of a certain level begin to help with the instruction.  It is seen as another aspect of their training, learning how to teach.  But this can be taken too far.  At the least, you should no longer be paying tuition, in exchange for teaching; or the time you spend teaching should be a distinct minority compared to the rest of your class time.  This is probably a violation of labor laws.  It is possible that the owner does not realize it, and you may need to educate him.


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## Steve (May 15, 2017)

Is this the same instructor who left you hanging when the parent confronted you in the parking lot?  Red flag.


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## Paul_D (May 15, 2017)

Did you complain when you were a lower grade and the other black belts came and help you out?   No probably not, so guess what, now it's your time to pay back 

Also, teaching helps you understand techniques better, as you have to explain them to others.

Also, the higher black belts want to train too (Who'd have thought ) and the better they get and the high up the syllabus they get the more they will understand and they will come back to you everntually as they'll be able to understand more and pass that onto you.  You teaching frees us their time to do that.

Having said that though, I'm with you on the payment situation.  Paying your instructor and then teaching is like paying your boss to go to work, it's taking the piss.


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## Headhunter (May 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Did you complain when you were a lower grade and the other black belts came and help you out?   No probably not, so guess what, now it's your time to pay back
> 
> Also, teaching helps you understand techniques better, as you have to explain them to others.
> 
> ...


Like I said I'll help when I need to but when there's 4 other higher ranks who aren't doing anything to help then that's just taking advantage and they already know I have no wish to teach since I already said that and it was agreed on. Teaching shouldn't be necessary for a black belt. A black belt should be about your ability and if people want to teach then fine but you shouldn't be forced into it


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## Headhunter (May 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Did you complain when you were a lower grade and the other black belts came and help you out?   No probably not, so guess what, now it's your time to pay back
> 
> Also, teaching helps you understand techniques better, as you have to explain them to others.
> 
> ...


Also I got my black belt in November and have been teaching ever since every single class twice a week...


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## drop bear (May 15, 2017)

Do MMA.


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## Flying Crane (May 15, 2017)

This is a problem.  Talk to the owner.  If he cannot recognize the problem that this is, then you need to find a different school.

Some kind of apprenticeship program COULD be appropriate, if all parties are in agreement to the terms.  Like you say,  not everyone wants to teach, not everyone should teach.  So being kind of forced into it, without any discussion or agreement beforehand, is simply wrong.  And if you agreed to such a program, then there ought to be both a change in your fee structure, as well as some kind of constructive feedback and education that you receive in return, as you develop your teaching skills.  It should not be simply a way for the owner and the more senior members to wash their hands of the teaching responsibilities.  

Don't let this situation fester.  You will become more and more resentful.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2017)

Stop showing up regularly. Make up a work excuse. If they can't rely on you to show.  They can't rely on you to teach.


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## Headhunter (May 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do MMA.


No


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## Tames D (May 15, 2017)

Another case of a martial arts school owner forcing a student to teach for free. If he can't afford to hire instructors he should get out of the business.
I'm with you Headhunter, I'm interested in training, not teaching.


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## Tames D (May 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Did you complain when you were a lower grade and the other black belts came and help you out? No probably not, so guess what, now it's your time to pay back


I think as a paying student he has every right to complain. And as a paying student, why does he need to pay back anything? He paid for a service.
He wants a place to train and he deserves to have that, without being hassled to teach instead. Those "other black belts" that were helping him along the way should have been getting paid also. This tells me a lot about this business owner.


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## jks9199 (May 15, 2017)

As others noted, there is a culture that every black belt wants to be and should teach, coupled with an expectation from school owners that "their" black belts should be teaching and, way too often, paying for the privilege.

There's a balance to be foybd.  Some black belts are lousy class leaders.  Some are okay.  Some are great.  Others may excel in one-on-one coaching, but not leading a class. Some just plain don't want to teach.  An expectation to help those below you, to maybe lead an occasional class, or,teach as a lesson to help you understand something more deeply is one thing, but you shouldn't be paying to learn and finding yourself teaching without guidance or support from more senior black belts, either.  You're there to train, not to give them a chance to work out in the corner. 

Take it up politely with the chief instructor; he may not even realize how often this is happening if he isn't at every class. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## CB Jones (May 15, 2017)

Is there a teaching requirement to test for 2nd Dan?


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## geezer (May 15, 2017)

It really depends on the business model and school culture. We are a very small club, and my advanced students are routinely asked to help teach their juniors. One guy had a problem with that and talked to me about it. So we scheduled some extra time for him to work exclusively with me and another advanced student. Now both are on track to take their "Primary Level" test (roughly comparable to full black belt) in three weeks. 

I'd recommend finding a good time for a frank and open discussion with your teacher. Maybe you can work things out,  and maybe not.  Or, on the other hand, you can take _Flying Crane's_ advice and inform him that he's violating labor laws (if indeed he is). See how that works out for you! My guess is that he'd tell you tho take a _Flying !!!!  _


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## JowGaWolf (May 15, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. But my main problem is there are 4 other higher dan black belts than me there but they spend their time working with each other and training leaving me and another brown belt to teach the younger students. Like I said I'm not bitching about helping out and I'm happy to if there's ever bad numbers but literally every session I'm roped into it while the higher black belts workout together and frankly I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.


teaching is actually good for your growth as a martial artist.  It forces you to slow down and revisit techniques that you already know.  Not everyone has the knowledge to teach.  In your case you either have a great honor, or you are being used.  I don't think that you would be teaching if you were bad at teaching.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> teaching is actually good for your growth as a martial artist.  It forces you to slow down and revisit techniques that you already know.  Not everyone has the knowledge to teach.  In your case you either have a great honor, or you are being used.  I don't think that you would be teaching if you were bad at teaching.


Yeah great but I still have 0 interest no matter how much of an honour it is or how much it's supposed to help me. It's not what I'm there to do and if I'd known I'd be asked I'd have not come back


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## Buka (May 16, 2017)

That's a problem, and I feel for your situation. And it might be a more complex problem than you realize.
If you don't want to be an instructor, sooner or later that will show up in your teaching (even if you don't want it to) And that's not good for anyone, not you, not the students who pick up on it, and not the people running the dojo.

The other problem - the students you teach.....if you become their favorite instructor, and everyone has an instructor they hope is teaching the night they drive, bus or or walk to the dojo, and suddenly you're gone, that could mess things up a bit as well.

I do wish you well in this.


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## Paul_D (May 16, 2017)

Tames D said:


> I think as a paying student he has every right to complain.


He shouldn’t be _paying_ to teach, if that’s what you mean.



Tames D said:


> why does he need to pay back anything? He paid for a service.


If the higher grades help you when you are a lower grade, then you don’t; need to be Sherlock Holmes to work out when you become a higher grade it will become your turn.  If you are not willing to accept that, leave and find another club.  But don’t keep accepting that help until you get your black belt and THEN turn round and say you’re no going to help the lower grades.  You knew the set up, you knew what would be expected of you, and you were happy to train there while it suited you.

When you are a lower grade the higher grades help you out.  Hence, when you become a higher grade it becomes your turn to help the lower grades.  To give something back to the system that has helped you, in order that it can continue.  Also, teaching helps you understand the techniques better, as you think about them more when you have to explain them to others, this furthers your own understating and helps you become a better martial artists.



Tames D said:


> I
> Those "other black belts" that were helping him along the way should have been getting paid also. .


Yes, that would be nice in the fantasy world where every club can afford to pay all its black belts a salary because the club is earning enough money to do so.  It would also be nice I was taller, richer and married to Scarlett Johansson.  Unfortunately the real world doesn’t work like that. :-(


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah great but I still have 0 interest no matter how much of an honour it is or how much it's supposed to help me. It's not what I'm there to do and if I'd known I'd be asked I'd have not come back


Then your choice is clear.  Leave the school.


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2017)

I'd never train at a place where teaching beyond a handful of classes is required.  I understand the requirement for advancing to certain ranks, but I don't agree with it.  I'm not talking about 7-10th dan ranks, as that's an entirely different animal than what we have here.

The way I look at it, I don't owe the dojo anything more than tuition.  I participate in a lot of stuff such as dojo clean up, bringing food/snacks/beverages to social events, etc.  I even have no problem helping teach a class if need be.  But I'm under no obligation to do so.  Especially regularly.

This is a big concern of yours.  The only way it'll potentially get resolved favorably is a sit down with the CI/owner.  You're not there to teach, you're there to train.  There's a difference between helping out with teaching a class or if a lower rank asks for some pointers before or after class.  It seems you're ok with that stuff, but you're not ok being the instructor for regularly scheduled classes.

I don't know the full situation, but I'd be pissed too.  I'd talk to the CI privately and respectfully and voice my concerns.  If he thought I owed it to him or the dojo, I'd leave.  Unless of course it was explicitly made clear to me that it was a requirement from the beginning.  Then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I see this a lot in the local TKD schools.  They make teaching a requirement for promoting, force the students to teach, and sit in an office while only teaching advanced classes.  Yet all their advertising says you'll learn from some reknowned master.  And the students aren't compensated nor receive any tuition reduction.  Nonsense.  That's not a shot at TKD as a whole, just a lot of the places around me.  Some people love teaching, and I have no problem with that.  It's the being taken advantage of part I have issues with.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. But my main problem is there are 4 other higher dan black belts than me there but they spend their time working with each other and training leaving me and another brown belt to teach the younger students. Like I said I'm not bitching about helping out and I'm happy to if there's ever bad numbers but literally every session I'm roped into it while the higher black belts workout together and frankly I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.



I give my time to help teach two and sometimes three kids classes every Monday and Thursday prior to attending adult class as a student.  Although there are times that I feel some of my kata are being neglected, the kata that I teach the kids has never been better.  The kids make me perfect my kata because they imitate what they see, and if I'm phoning it in, it shows in their work.

I get motivation from their enthusiasm, and I feel good knowing that perhaps I am making a positive impact on their lives.  I'll never be famous or rich or anything like that, but perhaps I can leave a small mark behind, leave something that matters to someone.

I also help to teach the adults in my adult class when they are new.  There are higher rank black belts in my dojo, and sometimes they help also.  But I seem to have a knack for explaining and demonstrating and I don't mind doing it.  Again, I feel that it helps me to demonstrate a technique; I have to have it down cold or I can't pass it on to others.

Yes, I volunteer without pay to help.  I also pay for my lessons.  In fact, I pay more than the asked fee, not a lot but some.  Because what I get out of my training is worth so much more than what I am paying.

Everyone is on a different path.  Mine includes helping others in the dojo as I can.  That makes me a better karateka, perhaps a better person, than I could become by just doing kata or punching a bag.

I don't see it as 'paying to attend a class'.  This isn't college.  It's not a restaurant where I pay for a meal and I want what I paid for.  This is a transfer of knowledge from an expert who is grossly undercharging and freely giving his time to help me.  I owe so much more than I give back, but I'm doing the best I can.

I recommend that you do your tasks with joy and enthusiasm, and look for the training that lurks within assisting others to learn your martial art.  There is more opportunity there than you think.  Perhaps your instructor knows that and is intentionally putting this in the path of your training.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> He shouldn’t be _paying_ to teach, if that’s what you mean.
> 
> 
> If the higher grades help you when you are a lower grade, then you don’t; need to be Sherlock Holmes to work out when you become a higher grade it will become your turn.  If you are not willing to accept that, leave and find another club.  But don’t keep accepting that help until you get your black belt and THEN turn round and say you’re no going to help the lower grades.  You knew the set up, you knew what would be expected of you, and you were happy to train there while it suited you.
> ...


I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open. 

There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I give my time to help teach two and sometimes three kids classes every Monday and Thursday prior to attending adult class as a student.  Although there are times that I feel some of my kata are being neglected, the kata that I teach the kids has never been better.  The kids make me perfect my kata because they imitate what they see, and if I'm phoning it in, it shows in their work.
> 
> I get motivation from their enthusiasm, and I feel good knowing that perhaps I am making a positive impact on their lives.  I'll never be famous or rich or anything like that, but perhaps I can leave a small mark behind, leave something that matters to someone.
> 
> ...


Well that's just nonsense. You like to do it good for you I don't so I shouldn't be made to. I haven't got that much money as it is and I don't want to be spending it teaching someone's else's club. That's the thing though they're not /freely/ giving there time they're making money out of it.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I'd never train at a place where teaching beyond a handful of classes is required.  I understand the requirement for advancing to certain ranks, but I don't agree with it.  I'm not talking about 7-10th dan ranks, as that's an entirely different animal than what we have here.
> 
> The way I look at it, I don't owe the dojo anything more than tuition.  I participate in a lot of stuff such as dojo clean up, bringing food/snacks/beverages to social events, etc.  I even have no problem helping teach a class if need be.  But I'm under no obligation to do so.  Especially regularly.
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct. I have 0 issues helping out time to time I get stuff happens but I'm not a teacher I get nothing from teaching. I don't need to give anything back to anyone. Thing is it's not even a requirement for promotion and I have no desire for promotion anyway. I'm happy to stay where I am for the rest of my life. It's a bit of fabric it really means very little to me.

Another issue is there's some higher belts who don't teach ever. Like there's a 5th dan who's never taught one class. He never even teaches 1 student like ever. He always goes to the back and trains by himself or takes part but never teaches and he never pays either. So to me why is this guy who's much higher not expected to teach but I am and I'm paying and he's not. 

Everyone saying oh ill get so much better because I have to analyse my stuff....well I do that anyway Im always breaking down my movements and focusing on small details on my own.

Like you say some people like to teach some dont. Those who like it good on them but those who don't shouldn't be pressured to


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## Bill Mattocks (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well that's just nonsense. You like to do it good for you I don't so I shouldn't be made to.



No one makes you do anything.  You're free to leave, aren't you?  Shake the dust from your sandals then.



> I haven't got that much money as it is and I don't want to be spending it teaching someone's else's club.



The point I was trying to make is that you may find some wonderful learning opportunities by teaching.  Let him who has eyes see.



> That's the thing though they're not /freely/ giving there time they're making money out of it.



So it's not about martial arts for you, it's about money.  I get it.  Best of luck to you.


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## EddieCyrax (May 16, 2017)

Something to consider.... I too recently was awarded my Black Belt in Kempo.  I am still a paying student, but instruct on occasion.  For this I have worked out a deal with the owner to allow me access to the school anytime I want in off hours and to invite a few friends/black belts from another school (same style Kempo) to train with.


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## jobo (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.
> 
> There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.


well you seem to have made a decision, so its your instructor you should be having the conversation with.

I can see both sides of the argument. It is first and foremost a business relationship and you are not forever in their debt, no more than if you were asked to give unpaid driving tuition by your driving instructor or guitar lessons by your music teacher

but on the otherhand, its a position of trust that will help you with your own development. You never fully understand anything till you try to teach others

I'm not sure about the cult thing, there is probably as bit of that around, but I see it as more extended family were you look to give back to a thing that has given you benefits. I get the impression that the,school isn't making much money, so he is not really exploiting you for gain, just losing a little less money because of your help. In time youl be one of the top black belts getting his attention and someone else will be teaching the newbies. Id see it more as a right of passage.

but if you really don't want to do it. Then put your foot down and tell him in no uncertain terms


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No one makes you do anything.  You're free to leave, aren't you?  Shake the dust from your sandals then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um yeah it is about money. Money is way more important than a karate class.


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## Steve (May 16, 2017)

I can see helping out when you have a stake in the school.  If it's a very small, non-profit or something like that, where your contribution helps keep the lights on and the school running, I get that.  It's more of a club in this sense, and in a club, everyone does their part.

If the school is a business, then it needs to be run like a business.  And if students are expected to teach, it needs to be an across the board, well documented expectation. 

In this thread and in the other thread where headhunter was getting harassed by a parent, a pretty clear picture of this instructor is being painted.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Although there are times that I feel some of my kata are being neglected, the kata that I teach the kids has never been better. The kids make me perfect my kata because they imitate what they see, and if I'm phoning it in, it shows in their work.


  This is always the case.  I know my advanced forms have been neglected but that beginner Kung Fu Form is almost flawless. lol.  

The downside to teaching is that it does affect training time for the advanced forms or kata practice.  The upside to this is that it really creates a high understanding of the basics.  Some of my advanced forms are better because I have a deeper understanding of the basics than I did before I started teaching.  My school may be a little more flexible than most. If needed it I can tell beginners to practice a form multiple times and then I can do my own training while they do their own.  For example, I may tell a student to do a form 5 times (if they know the entire form).  Once I see the student finish, then I'll make the student to do the form again so that I can review.   From there, I either make corrections or have the student to train the next form.

I have 2 "private" training days and students who attend those days usually progress in their forms faster than they would during the normal classes.  I also get a lot of training on my earlier forms on those days as well as I do the forms with the student.  I only feel like I'm missing out on training when I have to stop and watch for long periods of time.   Other than that training is training regardless of if I'm doing advanced forms or beginner forms.  To be honest the school wouldn't survive if the senior students didn't help to teach.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't see it as 'paying to attend a class'. This isn't college. It's not a restaurant where I pay for a meal and I want what I paid for. This is a transfer of knowledge from an expert who is grossly undercharging and freely giving his time to help me. I owe so much more than I give back, but I'm doing the best I can.


This is also me as well.  Jow Ga schools are like a family environment and not school type environment.  Payment is viewed as money that supports the school and it's activities.  If students train hard and give their best then that dedication will be rewarded.  There was a time when I was financially having trouble paying and my Sifu really helped me out and was flexible with the amount I had to pay each month.  He saw that I had a passion for Jow Ga Kung Fu and he allowed me to stay, where most schools would have prevented me from training because I could no longer afford it.  His decision to do so was the right decision because I played a critical role in helping the school to stay open.  I'm also able to show Jow Ga in a good light in terms of sparring and actually using the techniques.  Even though I've done a lot, I still feel the need to do what I can to repay the kindness that my Sifu showed me.  I have a passion for Jow Ga Kung Fu. My Sifu wants to have a successful school so I don't think I'll fully feel as if I've paid him back for his kindness until I can get the school to be a 30 to 40 student enrollment with at least 3 lions dance teams and 10 strong Jow Ga fighters.  I'm not the only one that feels this way.  Other students see that we care so they care and we do what we can to help support the school and each other.  Some of the students literally grow up with us.


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2017)

Steve said:


> I can see helping out when you have a stake in the school.  If it's a very small, non-profit or something like that, where your contribution helps keep the lights on and the school running, I get that.  It's more of a club in this sense, and in a club, everyone does their part.
> 
> If the school is a business, then it needs to be run like a business.  And if students are expected to teach, it needs to be an across the board, well documented expectation.
> 
> In this thread and in the other thread where headhunter was getting harassed by a parent, a pretty clear picture of this instructor is being painted.



The school I attend fits what you're saying.  We have about 40 or so students.  A senior student and I were estimatingly adding up tuition, and subtracting rent, utilities, etc.  We were talking about how it's basically a non-profit place.  I think my CI and his wife (co-owners) make enough to cover expenses, travel to NYC regularly for training, and maybe a small vacation every year.  The other thought it was break even and maybe half the NYC stuff.  We're 2.5 hours drive away from NYC.

We all help out whenever needed and however needed.  My CI was redoing the floor last summer - strip, sand, re-varnish, etc.  At least half the adults offered to help.  Not out of obligation, but because we genuinely love the place.  Everyone shows up for dojo cleaning (4 times a year).  Even parents who don't train show up and help.

When my CI is out of town (he's retired from his full-time career and takes 2-3 weeks every year), the senior students volunteer to teach class.

None of this - and more - is an obligation.  We're less than half the price everyone else in the area is.  We're a small and very tight knit club.  We do these things because we want to keep the place going and we enjoy each others' company.  We know we're not made to do anything just so we can line some "master's" pockets with money.

Places like that are rare.  If I was paying what a lot of the places in my area charge and then he expected to do stuff like that, I'd leave.

Edit:  I had Lyme Disease several months ago, and couldn't train for about 2 months.  When I stopped in to watch and say hi, I gave my CI the money for that month's tuition.  Both months I wasn't there.  He told me I didn't have to pay because I wasn't training.  I gave him the money anyway, saying "I'm still a part of the dojo, and I want to support the club."  He respectfully and appreciatively took the money.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.
> 
> There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.


You should really change schools.  If you don't feel a deeper connection with the school and those that you train with, then it's not a good place for you.  The fact that you feel as if you are being taken advantage speaks to the truth that I'm saying.

What you see as a "cult attitude" is called brotherhood.  Here's what a non-traditional martial arts school that my brother trains at.  If you were to walk in there, they are like a family unity and not like paying students who only cares about themselves.   They follow their core values.
Crazy88's Core Values (source)
*Our Core Values*
1. *Dedicate yourself to the team and teammates*.
2. Pursue never-ending improvement.
3. Respect the foundation of what *you learn and teach*.
4. Do the right thing (even when no one is looking).
5. Make smart decisions based on a plan and reality.
6. Build a sustainable foundation (NO SHORTCUTS).

*Dedicate yourself to the team and teammates.*
*Be a person that others look up to and can rely on. Treat the team’s goals as your own. Help your teammates develop their potential and become successful!*


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You should really change schools.  If you don't feel a deeper connection with the school and those that you train with, then it's not a good place for you.  The fact that you feel as if you are being taken advantage speaks to the truth that I'm saying.
> 
> What you see as a "cult attitude" is called brotherhood.  Here's what a non-traditional martial arts school that my brother trains at.  If you were to walk in there, they are like a family unity and not like paying students who only cares about themselves.   They follow their core values.
> Crazy88's Core Values (source)
> ...



I've never felt that way in any place because simply they're not my family. They're friends who I get on with but they're not family I've got my family and I've got my friends they're 2 seperate things. I see them a couple times a week have a laugh train then go home that's friends not family


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I've never felt that way in any place because simply they're not my family. They're friends who I get on with but they're not family I've got my family and I've got my friends they're 2 seperate things. I see them a couple times a week have a laugh train then go home that's friends not family


This is why you feel the way you do, and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way.  If you only see them as associates or friends then you aren't going to put in the extra work, simply because it does not have that level of relationship bonding.

Not everyone has that level of bonding with the school they train in.  I know there are students at my school that don't have that type of relationship with us and they don't train with us anymore.  We still talk to them, but for them it was just a class.  Which is cool.

If you don't want to teach, then let them know that you don't want to teach.  If you don't like the environment, then find somewhere else to train, because I don't expect that they will change on this issue any more than you will change.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Um yeah it is about money. Money is way more important than a karate class.


Blasphemer!!!  Burn the Martial Arts Heretic. LOL.  Just kidding and only said this because of your cult statement.  How much do you pay for your classes?


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> If I was paying what a lot of the places in my area charge and then he expected to do stuff like that, I'd leave.


This is how I feel too.  If I'm paying a lot of money for Martial arts then I would be less willing to pull the "extra mile"  I originally paid $300 for Me and my son to take Jow Ga kung fu and a Tai chi class for me.  Some schools will charge that much and more just for one student.  It's difficult to feel a family bond when someone is taking a huge chunk of money out of you each month.


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## Touch Of Death (May 16, 2017)

Let me see some of your kenpo, then I will tell you what you should do.


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## Paul_D (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.
> 
> There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.


So you only wanted people to reply to your thread if they agreed with you.  

Understood.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Let me see some of your kenpo, then I will tell you what you should do.


Sure you can get a free personal demonstration of my kenpo..meet me in the car park in 2 hours lol


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> So you only wanted people to reply to your thread if they agreed with you.
> 
> Understood.


Ummm where did I say that...you make your point I state my opinion about your point


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is how I feel too.  If I'm paying a lot of money for Martial arts then I would be less willing to pull the "extra mile"  I originally paid $300 for Me and my son to take Jow Ga kung fu and a Tai chi class for me.  Some schools will charge that much and more just for one student.  It's difficult to feel a family bond when someone is taking a huge chunk of money out of you each month.



I liken it to my daughters' gymnastics school.  I pay tuition, and they train in return.  They have fundraisers and other things they need help with to keep the travel teams' costs down.  I'm not helping them out.  I'll throw them $5 to wash my car when they do that or buy some cookies if I like them when they sell them, but nothing more.  Part of it is my daughters aren't on the team (they're 4 and 6, so no team is offered).  But moreso that I don't feel any sense of community there.  I've never been called my first (or last) name.  I get a smile and a hi when I walk in, but that's about it.  I've never had a conversation with anyone there beyond "here's my credit card."  And no one's initiated one.  Not her direct coaches nor anyone else.  Don't get me wrong, it doesn't bother me at all and I'm not looking for them to kiss my butt nor anything else.  I'm a paying customer, and that's it.  If their school was like the dojo, I'd be involved.  But it's not.  I've seen dojos like my kids' gymnastics school.  I've got no problem with them, but they're just not for me.  If my dojo was like gymnastics, I wouldn't pitch in.  I'd have better things to do with my time.


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## marques (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. (...) I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.


You are not alone... And I was paying more than it was supposed to.


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## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I already made it clear that I had 0 intention to teach and that was accepted and anyway I don't owe anyone there anything. That's my problem with traditional martial arts they act like owe them something. Well no I dont owe anyone a thing i paid for my lessons its not like i got them for free the other instructors chose to teach it was their choice to do it I gave them my money to do it. They made an agreement that I wouldn't teach and I already went back on it to be helpful. I've already given back to the system. I've given back god knows much money so the club can stay open.
> 
> There's to much cult like attitude in martial arts where I'm supposed to be forever in debt to my instructor because he did the job he was paid to do. People are expected to kiss there instructors feet and jump on command. Not just at my place but I've seen it at loads of places. My instructor is simply that an instructor he's not my boss or my god. My art is just a hobby it's not a life long thing people should be able to come and go as they please and not feel they have to do something they don't want. That's one of the reasons I walked away from the style in the first place and if I have to I'll do so again I've got plenty of other options of places to train.


You don't have an attitude which will let you flourish in what is usually called "traditional asian martial arts."

You will never be happy, long-term, in those sort of arts because what you describe is the default "culture" of vast majority.  It's also pretty much the "culture" of most culturally related martial arts including Indonesian, Filipino, and, yes, even the majority of HEMA.  Most martial arts instructors are not actually making any money.  They almost always have a "day job" and teaching martial arts is actually a loosing financial proposition which they frequently prop up with their day job.  They teach because they love their martial art and they expect long term students to feel the same.

You don't.  It's not a judgment of your character, just a statement of fact.  You do not have the personality necessary to practice asian martial arts, as it is taught in most places, for the long term.

Go do MMA, boxing, or maybe BJJ or something else.  You're not going to last in Karate.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


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## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well that's just nonsense.


Bill may write things I don't particularly agree with, but he never writes "nonsense."


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Bill may write things I don't particularly agree with, but he never writes "nonsense."


Well I think he does


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2017)

I am sure we here in Martialtalk Land are not privy to the full picture of what is going on.  

I'll summarize some thoughts.

Part of the progression in training often includes helping with those who are junior to you.  The amount of help you are expected to give can vary, depending on a lot of things.  However, you should still be getting your own training as well.

If you have unwillingly swapped your training time for teaching time, and you are no longer training, then youve got a problem. 

In my opinion, the better schools foster a feeling of family, but the respect needs to go both ways.  There should be give-and-take, and it should go in both directions.  It should be more than just a financial transaction.  There should be a lot of room for this to be expressed in a way that is meaningful for the student.  That is my opinion.

If the school is being run strictly as a business, without a feeling of family, then you should not be forced to teach, and certainly should not be forced to teach instead of train, and even more certainly should not be forced to pay for the privilege of teaching instead of training.  If this is the happening then something is wrong.

But the actual circumstances can vary widely.  What is reasonable, what you may find acceptable, will depend on a lot of variables.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You don't have an attitude which will let you flourish in what is usually called "traditional asian martial arts."
> 
> You will never be happy, long-term, in those sort of arts because what you describe is the default "culture" of vast majority.  It's also pretty much the "culture" of most culturally related martial arts including Indonesian, Filipino, and, yes, even the majority of HEMA.  Most martial arts instructors are not actually making any money.  They almost always have a "day job" and teaching martial arts is actually a loosing financial proposition which they frequently prop up with their day job.  They teach because they love their martial art and they expect long term students to feel the same.
> 
> ...


Right firstly I do American kenpo so I don't do Asian martial arts and what so I don't like my martial art because I don't want to spend my time teaching....like I said it's this judgemental attitude that I hate. So im less of a martial artist because I don't want to teach.....doesn't matter how hard someone trains but if they don't teach they don't like there martial art...yeah that makes sense. That's the whole problem they EXPECT you to do it....why should they expect anything without asking. They expect you to do what they say at the click of their fingers...that's totally wrong and puts people off.

Oh and not going to last? I've been doing it for over 20 years so I've lasted.

Fact is I do teach I have been teaching every single class I go to for the past 6 months 3 or 4 times a week paid every class and not had a single bit of instruction myself


----------



## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I am sure we here in Martialtalk Land are not privy to the full picture of what is going on.
> 
> I'll summarize some thoughts.
> 
> ...


Yep like I've repeated hundreds of times now...I have taught non stop for 6 months every single class since. It's not like I'm bitching about taking 1 or 2 lessons here and there but every single class week in and week out and paying the instructor for it. I've been running both kids and adult classes since I get there early because it's more easy  for my travel arrangements. So I'm teaching from 6-9, 3 days a week and paying £7 a lesson to so. The fact I've done that for so long without complaint should show I'm committed but frankly I won't be a doormat


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yep like I've repeated hundreds of times now...I have taught non stop for 6 months every single class since. It's not like I'm bitching about taking 1 or 2 lessons here and there but every single class week in and week out and paying the instructor for it. I've been running both kids and adult classes since I get there early because it's more easy  for my travel arrangements. So I'm teaching from 6-9, 3 days a week and paying £7 a lesson to so. The fact I've done that for so long without complaint should show I'm committed but frankly I won't be a doormat


Based on your description, I agree that you have a problem.  This feels out of balance.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Based on your description, I agree that you have a problem.  This feels out of balance.


Absolutely it is...I've kept to it because I do like the club and I don't want to stop kenpo and really can't be bothered to go club searching again and I do like the people there they're great but frankly I want to train...I don't think my stuff is perfect and I want to improve and work on the finer details but I'm stuck teaching and despite what people say I see no improvement in myself from teaching. Some people here are happy to teach for the rest if their life and put there training second. I'm not I may be in the older generation but I still want to workout and learn new things I don't want to be spending my time standing in front of a class critiquing stances I want to be in the class sweating and pushing myself.


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## Kickboxer101 (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You don't have an attitude which will let you flourish in what is usually called "traditional asian martial arts."
> 
> You will never be happy, long-term, in those sort of arts because what you describe is the default "culture" of vast majority.  It's also pretty much the "culture" of most culturally related martial arts including Indonesian, Filipino, and, yes, even the majority of HEMA.  Most martial arts instructors are not actually making any money.  They almost always have a "day job" and teaching martial arts is actually a loosing financial proposition which they frequently prop up with their day job.  They teach because they love their martial art and they expect long term students to feel the same.
> 
> ...



So if you don't teach you don't love your style....wow that's some real brainwashing and emotional blackmail going on there. If an instructor says that to someone the person will feel pressured to teach to prove they love it. Then the instructor gets free labour and his club run for him while stealing the guys money at the same time...agree with headhunter that absolutely sounds like a cult


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2017)

I think there is a lot of room for things to happen without it being a cult, and without the owner being a thief.

However, this does sound like a situation that is out of balance.  Maybe it can be fixed.  Maybe it can't.


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## Tired_Yeti (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. But my main problem is there are 4 other higher dan black belts than me there but they spend their time working with each other and training leaving me and another brown belt to teach the younger students. Like I said I'm not bitching about helping out and I'm happy to if there's ever bad numbers but literally every session I'm roped into it while the higher black belts workout together and frankly I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.


Free your thinking, man. 
This isn't a case of you being drafted into the Army. They can't MAKE you teach. Just simply set boundaries. Tell them how often and when you will teach (if at all) and stick to it. If you don't want to teach at all, tell them that, then refuse to teach a class. People treat you the way you signal them to treat you. If you don't set boundaries, people will take advantage. Worst case is that they ask you to leave the school. Then you take your MONEY to another dojo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jobo (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I've never felt that way in any place because simply they're not my family. They're friends who I get on with but they're not family I've got my family and I've got my friends they're 2 seperate things. I see them a couple times a week have a laugh train then go home that's friends not family


I think it sad that you don't feel part of a team or club , a sense of belonging, support and common purpose and  identity are the plus points of brotherhood or extended family. I have very recently been enrolled in the,circle of students at my club, which means very little to me, but it is a big deal to them as I am officially recognised as a family member, so I was quite touched by the accolade

in your situation where you don't feel any sense of belonging then I think you are right to take your dollar elsewhere


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

jobo said:


> I think it sad that you don't feel part of a team or club , a sense of belonging, support and common purpose and  identity are the plus points of brotherhood or extended family.
> 
> in your situation where you don't feel any sense of belonging then I think you are right to take your dollar elsewhere


When did I say that I feel part of the club Im just not going to call them my family and I don't think it's sad at all I've got my real family and I've got my friends


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## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Right firstly I do American kenpo so I don't do Asian martial arts and what so I don't like my martial art because I don't want to spend my time teaching....like I said it's this judgemental attitude that I hate. So im less of a martial artist because I don't want to teach.....doesn't matter how hard someone trains but if they don't teach they don't like there martial art...yeah that makes sense. That's the whole problem they EXPECT you to do it....why should they expect anything without asking. They expect you to do what they say at the click of their fingers...that's totally wrong and puts people off.
> 
> Oh and not going to last? I've been doing it for over 20 years so I've lasted.
> 
> Fact is I do teach I have been teaching every single class I go to for the past 6 months 3 or 4 times a week paid every class and not had a single bit of instruction myself





Headhunter said:


> Right firstly I do American kenpo so I don't do Asian martial arts and what so I don't like my martial art because I don't want to spend my time teaching....like I said it's this judgemental attitude that I hate. So im less of a martial artist because I don't want to teach.....doesn't matter how hard someone trains but if they don't teach they don't like there martial art...yeah that makes sense. That's the whole problem they EXPECT you to do it....why should they expect anything without asking. They expect you to do what they say at the click of their fingers...that's totally wrong and puts people off.
> 
> Oh and not going to last? I've been doing it for over 20 years so I've lasted.
> 
> Fact is I do teach I have been teaching every single class I go to for the past 6 months 3 or 4 times a week paid every class and not had a single bit of instruction myself


 whatever. Believe me or don't it doesn't matter.


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## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> So if you don't teach you don't love your style....wow that's some real brainwashing and emotional blackmail going on there. If an instructor says that to someone the person will feel pressured to teach to prove they love it. Then the instructor gets free labour and his club run for him while stealing the guys money at the same time...agree with headhunter that absolutely sounds like a cult


 you should give lessons on how to execute a straw man attack.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> whatever. Believe me or don't it doesn't matter.


Good because I don't


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yep like I've repeated hundreds of times now...I have taught non stop for 6 months every single class since. It's not like I'm bitching about taking 1 or 2 lessons here and there but every single class week in and week out and paying the instructor for it. I've been running both kids and adult classes since I get there early because it's more easy  for my travel arrangements. So I'm teaching from 6-9, 3 days a week and paying £7 a lesson to so. The fact I've done that for so long without complaint should show I'm committed but frankly I won't be a doormat


Definitely don't let them take advantage of you.  Speak to the other instructors and let them know that you want to stop teaching so you can train. If they say no, then leave the school.  Don't be silent with how you feel.  It'll just fester and make you feel worse.


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## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Good because I don't


If you say so. <shrug>

Are you always this angry?


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## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Definitely don't let them take advantage of you.  Speak to the other instructors and let them know that you want to stop teaching so you can train. If they say no, then leave the school.  Don't be silent with how you feel.  It'll just fester and make you feel worse.


This is where he gives you reasons that he's not going to leave but he still feels victimized.


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> If you say so. <shrug>
> 
> Are you always this angry?


Umm I'm not angry saying I think you're wrong doesn't mean someone's angry


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> This is where he gives you reasons that he's not going to leave but he still feels victimized.


Ummm what? How about not putting words in peoples mouths First I've not said anything about whether I'll leave or not second second I've never said anything about being victimised....


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> So if you don't teach you don't love your style....wow that's some real brainwashing and emotional blackmail going on there. If an instructor says that to someone the person will feel pressured to teach to prove they love it. Then the instructor gets free labour and his club run for him while stealing the guys money at the same time...agree with headhunter that absolutely sounds like a cult


Oh agreed that statement reeks of emotional blackmail if any instructor tried saying to me I'd be out the door before he finished talking


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## drop bear (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Ummm what? How about not putting words in peoples mouths First I've not said anything about whether I'll leave or not second second I've never said anything about being victimised....



Ok.  Your situation as been paraphrased in a fairly brutal way. So that you look at it in a brutal way.  When posed in that manner you say you would leave in a heart beat. 

So you need to resolve how your situation is different from the one described,fix the situation or come to terms  with it. 

Because so far this is a rant about how you are being victimised. Without a single move towards a resolution.


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## drop bear (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> This is where he gives you reasons that he's not going to leave but he still feels victimized.



Nuance is going to be wasted effort.


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## jobo (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> When did I say that I feel part of the club Im just not going to call them my family and I don't think it's sad at all I've got my real family and I've got my friends


its sad you  feel like its just a commercial arrangement and you have no affinity to your fellow members. Perhaps your just not that type of person


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## JR 137 (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You don't have an attitude which will let you flourish in what is usually called "traditional asian martial arts."
> 
> You will never be happy, long-term, in those sort of arts because what you describe is the default "culture" of vast majority.  It's also pretty much the "culture" of most culturally related martial arts including Indonesian, Filipino, and, yes, even the majority of HEMA.  Most martial arts instructors are not actually making any money.  They almost always have a "day job" and teaching martial arts is actually a loosing financial proposition which they frequently prop up with their day job.  They teach because they love their martial art and they expect long term students to feel the same.
> 
> ...



So if he doesn't love to teach, he doesn't love his art?  I'm really trying to wrap my head around what you're saying here.

People love what they do for different reasons.

I trained "traditional" Japanese karate for almost 7 years, took time off because life got in the way, then resumed almost 17 years later.  I've been back 2.5 years now.  I taught during my first stint because I liked teaching.  I wasn't forced into it, and my sensei was allowing me to train for very cheap.  Teaching wasn't on my radar, but my sensei thought another classmate and I had the personality, knowledge, and ability to become very good teachers.  I tried it, and I started enjoying it, so I taught more often.  We weren't asked to teach because he wanted to hang out and do other things.  There were higher ranked and ability students who were never approached to teach.

I'm now going on 41 and am a school teacher.  Being in another "traditional" Japanese karate organization, I have next to no desire to teach.  I like helping out classmates before and after class, and I enjoyed helping teach my daughter's class when she was there.  I wouldn't mind teaching a class or two if my CI asked me to when he's away.  But regularly teaching?  Zero desire to.  And I LOVE karate.  It dominates my thoughts when I'm not at work or hanging out with my family when I'm not in the dojo.  I'd like to think my knowledge of it combined with my physical education teaching experience would make me a very effective karate teacher.  But I'm at a point in my life where I want to train and learn karate.

Not wanting to teach doesn't make me a bad person, karateka, nor anything else.  It's just not my thing.  It has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of love for the art.  Not everyone fits the same mold.  Thinking they should is absurd.  Thinking if someone doesn't want to teach will mean they won't stick around long or they should take a different art is even more absurd.  There's several people at my dojo who've been around for 2-3 decades who have no desire to teach class.  They like helping and working students individually, but they have zero desire to run class.  And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be very effective in that role.  They'd be quite effective in a tutoring role, if you will, but they don't have the personality to regularly run a class.  Even the smartest and most effective people in any field can't teach.  That's just the way it works.


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## jobo (May 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> So if he doesn't love to teach, he doesn't love his art?  I'm really trying to wrap my head around what you're saying here.
> 
> People love what they do for different reasons.
> 
> ...


it doesnt seem to be his problem that he can't teach, sp much as he is feeling ripped off, that he pays two pounds an hour for his lesson, but gets to spend that time teaching rather than being taught. Two pounds for our American friends isn't enough to buy a cup of coffee. But this amount is causing him to consider. Going to another school


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## CB Jones (May 16, 2017)

jobo said:


> it doesnt seem to be his problem that he can't teach, sp much as he is feeling ripped off, that he pays two pounds an hour for his lesson, but gets to spend that time teaching rather than being taught. Two pounds for our American friends isn't enough to buy a cup of coffee. But this amount is causing him to consider. Going to another school



In for a penny, in for a pound...


----------



## lklawson (May 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> So if he doesn't love to teach, he doesn't love his art?  I'm really trying to wrap my head around what you're saying here.
> .


That's because I didn't say that.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> That's because I didn't say that.



Ok.  So what is it about his "attitude" that'll keep him from "flourish(ing) in what is usually called 'traditional Asian martial arts?'"

I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing.  

Please don't take this as argumentative.  I'm just confused.


----------



## Tames D (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Go do MMA, boxing, or maybe BJJ or something else. You're not going to last in Karate.


I'm trying to wrap my head around this statement. Headhunter has over 20 years training in karate and has earned his black belt. You might want to rethink this


----------



## Mark Lynn (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So I got my black belt in kenpo last year and I was very happy with that but the problem is since then I've been asked to teach a lot...like almost every single lesson since. Now I don't mind helping out the odd time but frankly I'm not a teacher that's not why I turn up every class. I'm there to train plain and simple and I told my instructor this before I came back and he agreed I wouldn't have to. But my main problem is there are 4 other higher dan black belts than me there but they spend their time working with each other and training leaving me and another brown belt to teach the younger students. Like I said I'm not bitching about helping out and I'm happy to if there's ever bad numbers but literally every session I'm roped into it while the higher black belts workout together and frankly I'm paying for my classes so I'm really I'm paying to teach my instructor to teach his class....I will be having a word about it because it's just making it unenjoyable. I'm not a teacher I don't enjoy that aspect I'll do it if I must but quite honestly I feel like I'm being made a mug of.



I'm wondering why you brought this here to this forum in the first place?   No one here can help you in this situation and everyone has basically said the same things.  You have two camps really.  Those who believe you should teach or that teaching is being part of helping out running of the dojo, part of the family, or being part of the dojo training experience, and those that see this as a simple business arrangement that has been abused.

However both camps really say you need to talk with the owner since only he can resolve it.   

Now in an earlier post in another thread you mentioned that your instructor was a 7th dan, so perhaps this is what is going on.  Your instructor is training the other higher dan ranks because they have put their time in helping out and really a 7th dan shouldn't be teaching lower ranked students when he had lower dan ranks that can do it,  Instead he should be teaching the higher dan ranks.  You are the lowest dan rank so you are the one stuck teaching.   Prior to your becoming a black belt (instructor) he had to take time away from the higher ranked students so he or  they could fill in and teach the lower ranked students.   It's like having a person with multi degreed education (MBA, PHD or whatever teaching middle school instead of college students) when there are lessor qualified individuals (teachers with a four year degree) that could teach those classes.

I agree that being forced to teach every class isn't right, especially if the instructor is only sitting behind a desk fooling around.  However having lower ranks teach so the higher ranks get to learn from the more senior instructors is a common practice.   Because it is understood that your time will come as well.

Now if that is what is actually going on and you approach the instructor(s) in the bitchy manner which it seems you've brought to this board then if I was your instructor I'd explain the situation and if you thought that was unfair than I would tell you "Well since you want to train with the higher dans without putting in the time that they did helping the school out then the instructors (dan grade) price is this $$$$$$$,  BTW I was having you off set that price by teaching, giving you the discounted price since you were helping out"   "But since you don't want that then pay up or hit the door."

Seriously what is the instructor going to lose if you leave?   He will have to take someone else (himself or another higher dan) to teach while you take up their time for the same fee as you paid when you needed their instruction more (as a lower rank)   You just want to train train train and learn from them the higher skill levels but not help them by allowing them to train with the higher level instructor for the same amount you paid as a beginner.   I'd raise your fees, they aren't losing anything.

Your not really connected to the dojo, you don't feel obligation, and if the feelings mutual then I wouldn't sweat it (if I was your instructor) if you chose to leave.   They might be trying to run you off by having you teach when they know you don't want to.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> I'm wondering why you brought this here to this forum in the first place?


My guess is to vent a little.  It was clear that it was building up.  Hopefully he got a lot of that frustration out.


----------



## JR 137 (May 16, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> I'm wondering why you brought this here to this forum in the first place?   No one here can help you in this situation and everyone has basically said the same things.  You have two camps really.  Those who believe you should teach or that teaching is being part of helping out running of the dojo, part of the family, or being part of the dojo training experience, and those that see this as a simple business arrangement that has been abused.
> 
> However both camps really say you need to talk with the owner since only he can resolve it.
> 
> ...


Regarding the CI taking time out of training the higher dan guys, it seems more of a scheduling problem to me.

I don't agree lower dan ranks should teach beginners and intermediates so that the CI can teach the higher ranks.  I think the CI should teach all levels.  I'm not saying he/she should teach every single class, but he/she should teach every level and give them just as much attention as each other. 

If he/she wants time to focus on the higher ranks, make a higher ranks only class.  If there's genuinely too many students to be able to do this and no flexibility in the schedule, then he's in over his head and he should stop taking in new students.

I've seen it before.  Some teachers think teaching lower ranks is beneath them; they just want to teach advanced students.  Nonsense.  People join to learn from the CI.  There's no problem with assistants teaching lower ranks, but the CI must teach them too.  Even Tadashi Nakamura (of Kyokushin fame and founder of Seido Juku) teaches white belt classes and colored belt classes regularly.  And he gives them just as much attention as he does anyone else.  He's not the only one who teaches them, but he's on the schedule so students know exactly when if they so choose.  And his dojo is huge.  

The most important rank is white belt; no one has gone on to become a black belt or any other rank without being a white belt first.  If a CI can't make time for them, he/she should reevaluate why he's doing what he/she's doing.

I'm sure many will disagree.  I'm sure many will say there's not enough time in the day.  To that I say work the schedule out.


----------



## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

lklawson said:


> That's because I didn't say that.


That's exactly what you said


----------



## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> I'm wondering why you brought this here to this forum in the first place?   No one here can help you in this situation and everyone has basically said the same things.  You have two camps really.  Those who believe you should teach or that teaching is being part of helping out running of the dojo, part of the family, or being part of the dojo training experience, and those that see this as a simple business arrangement that has been abused.
> 
> However both camps really say you need to talk with the owner since only he can resolve it.
> 
> ...




Umm this is a martial art forum and the subjects connected to martial arts so...


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> it doesnt seem to be his problem that he can't teach, sp much as he is feeling ripped off, that he pays two pounds an hour for his lesson, but gets to spend that time teaching rather than being taught. Two pounds for our American friends isn't enough to buy a cup of coffee. But this amount is causing him to consider. Going to another school


No even if I wasn't paying i wouldn't like it because I don't like teaching plain and simple and could be doing better things with my time than teaching kids who have 0 interest and only dragged there by there parents


----------



## BuckerooBonzai (May 17, 2017)

So have you spoken to your instructor about this issue yet?


----------



## jobo (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No even if I wasn't paying i wouldn't like it because I don't like teaching plain and simple and could be doing better things with my time than teaching kids who have 0 interest and only dragged there by there parents


so as you go 3times a,week, I'm guessing you are there tonight. Let's us know how it goes


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Right firstly I do American kenpo so I don't do Asian martial arts


"white pajamas" gi; check.  Standard karate techniques (with anglicized names); check.  Admitted Asian origins; check.  Japanese name (kenpo); check.  Funakoshi style belt ranks; check.  Yup.  Not Asian at all.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

> I've been doing it for over 20 years so I've lasted.


You've been doing American Kenpo continuously for *20 YEARS* and only just 6 months ago finally earned black belt?


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Steve said:


> In this thread and in the other thread where headhunter was getting harassed by a parent, a pretty clear picture of this instructor is being painted.


And yet he has repeatedly in this thread written that he likes it there and doesn't want to leave.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The school I attend fits what you're saying.  We have about 40 or so students.  A senior student and I were estimatingly adding up tuition, and subtracting rent, utilities, etc.  We were talking about how it's basically a non-profit place.  I think my CI and his wife (co-owners) make enough to cover expenses, travel to NYC regularly for training, and maybe a small vacation every year.  The other thought it was break even and maybe half the NYC stuff.  We're 2.5 hours drive away from NYC.
> 
> We all help out whenever needed and however needed.  My CI was redoing the floor last summer - strip, sand, re-varnish, etc.  At least half the adults offered to help.  Not out of obligation, but because we genuinely love the place.  Everyone shows up for dojo cleaning (4 times a year).  Even parents who don't train show up and help.
> 
> ...


Careful.  Apparently if you admit that this sort of environment exists you can be accused of promoting a cult.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3 (May 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do MMA.



I've seen the same thing happen in MMA. A guy gets a fight or two then he's advertised as an instructor who is expected to teach as well as train. fine if he wants to and doesn't have to pay but not if he doesn't want to or actually doesn't know how to teach....it's not a natural talent every martial artist has. Most people have to be taught how to teach.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You've been doing American Kenpo continuously for *20 YEARS* and only just 6 months ago finally earned black belt?


Yes well done *slow round of applause*


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You've been doing American Kenpo continuously for *20 YEARS* and only just 6 months ago finally earned black belt?


You got a problem with that?


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Ummm what? How about not putting words in peoples mouths First I've not said anything about whether I'll leave or not second second I've never said anything about being victimised....


That's amusing.  You've written repeatedly that you don't want to leave this school.


----------



## Steve (May 17, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> You got a problem with that?


I think the operative word was continuously.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Ok.  So what is it about his "attitude" that'll keep him from "flourish(ing) in what is usually called 'traditional Asian martial arts?'"
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing.
> 
> Please don't take this as argumentative.  I'm just confused.


Look around at "traditional" schools.  How many decades long students feel that they only have a commercial/financial relationship with the school/art?


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Tames D said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around this statement. Headhunter has over 20 years training in karate and has earned his black belt. You might want to rethink this


Nah.  I thinking about how he could have been continuously training in American Kenpo for 20 years as he has written an only just earned his black belt 6 months ago.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> That's exactly what you said


Quote it. 

Here, use this space:


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Nah.  I thinking about how he could have been continuously training in American Kenpo for 20 years as he has written an only just earned his black belt 6 months ago.


So what? You're belittling me for that? I never cared about belts I take my time who cares. Nice amount of arrogance you have first saying if you don't teach you don't like your art then talking down on someone who takes longer to get a belt...nice guy you are


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Look around at "traditional" schools.  How many decades long students feel that they only have a commercial/financial relationship with the school/art?


Probably loads? You know everyone who ever trains do you? Get off your high horse and realise your way isn't the only way


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> You got a problem with that?


Maybe I don't love it enough to have gotten it quicker according to this guy


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> You got a problem with that?


Well, frankly, yeah.  It's way, way, way outside the bounds of normal that something about it doesn't quite sniff right.

There could be several different reasons for it but most often the reason is that it's not 20 years of continuous training, and I have no doubt that your experience is any different.  While it could be that he's declined to test for 15 straight years (going on the rule of thumb of 3-5 years training to shodan), it much more common, and therefore more likely, that, while he started 20 years ago, he has had long periods of not attending a school.

And that would be consistent with what he technically wrote but not consistent with what he was implying.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Well, frankly, yeah.  It's way, way, way outside the bounds of normal that something about it doesn't quite sniff right.
> 
> There could be several different reasons for it but most often the reason is that it's not 20 years of continuous training, and I have no doubt that your experience is any different.  While it could be that he's declined to test for 15 straight years (going on the rule of thumb of 3-5 years training to shodan), it much more common, and therefore more likely, that, while he started 20 years ago, he has had long periods of not attending a school.
> 
> ...


Wrong


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So what? You're belittling me for that?


No.  I'm implying that you might not be forthcoming with all of the details and that you might be over stating some things or leaving out others in order to bolster sympathetic feelings for your case.



> Nice amount of arrogance


Are you familiar with what Queen Gertrude said in Hamlet?



> you have first saying if you don't teach you don't like your art


Again, that's not what I wrote, despite your continued misunderstanding.  



> then talking down on someone who takes longer to get a belt...nice guy you are


Good of you to notice.  I got a niceness award.  I used to have a Humble Badge but they took it back because I was wearing it so much.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Probably loads? You know everyone who ever trains do you? Get off your high horse and realise your way isn't the only way


OK, I'll try to explain this again.  I may try to use small words.

I didn't say it was the only way.  In fact, specifically wrote that it isn't and suggested that you go to MMA, Boxing, or something else where the "requirement to teach/assumption that you will teach" isn't a part of that martial culture.

I didn't say it was my way.  Care to make a guess as to why I didn't?  I'll give you a hint.  "I'll take 'because it isn't' for $20, Alex."  Anything else is your unfounded assumption.

I did write that teaching out of some for of social obligation is common Asian based martial arts, particularly as expressed in the U.S.

I did write that most instructors of Asian based martial arts, particularly as expressed in the U.S., are not teaching for financial gain (usually at a net financial loss, actually).  Instead, they teach because they love their martial art and have a reasonable expectation that long-term students will also love their martial art and will make what the instructor sees as reasonable sacrifices for that love.

Someone reading what I wrote objectively, not angrily, might have kinda seen that.


----------



## Streetfighter2 (May 17, 2017)

Wow some right nobs on this thread. Sounds like they have there teachers name tattooed on their ***


----------



## CB Jones (May 17, 2017)

Could it be that since you got your black belt you are now a representative of that school.  

And the instructor feels it is important that you learn how to teach while you are under his supervision since you now represent his dojo.

When that instructor promoted you he in essence vouched for you and now his name is forever attached to you.  So now he has a vested interest in you and maybe he wants to see how you do in an instructing role.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Wow some right nobs on this thread.


Welcome to the Internet.  

Martial Talk is a lot nicer, friendlier, and more controlled than many web forums.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## BuckerooBonzai (May 17, 2017)

I am still curious as to whether you have spoken to your instructor about this? 

I think all of this can be solved with some communication between yourself and your instructor. 

It does not seem like any progress is being made in this thread--it seems like this thread, like so many others, is devolving into meaningless insults and further misunderstandings.


----------



## lklawson (May 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Could it be that since you got your black belt you are now a representative of that school.
> 
> And the instructor feels it is important that you learn how to teach while you are under his supervision since you now represent his dojo.
> 
> When that instructor promoted you he in essence vouched for you and now his name is forever attached to you.  So now he has a vested interest in you and maybe he wants to see how you do in an instructing role.


Could be.

I think it's probably more likely that the instructor just expects that he and the other black belts will teach and hasn't ever considered that someone might think it unreasonable.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 17, 2017)

Some thoughts ...

If an instructor is teaching for love of the art and expects his senior students to also teach for love of the art, he shouldn't be charging those students for the privilege of doing the teaching themselves. Whether you see the teacher-student relationship as a financial interaction or as a familial bond or something in-between, a teacher shouldn't be charging a student money to *not* teach them. As Headhunter describes it, he has paid for six months of classes but has not received any instruction during that time. I don't see that as a "reasonable sacrifice", I see that as being ripped off.

I love teaching and have gotten a lot out of it, but not everyone cares for teaching or is good at it. It's one thing to ask your senior students to give teaching a try and help out on occasion. I think that's pretty reasonable. However if your lower ranked students are being taught entirely by someone who doesn't want to be teaching, then those lower ranked students are being done a disservice, because the teacher's disinterest will inevitably lead to lower quality instruction.

The idea of giving back to the school isn't something peculiar to Asian martial arts. I've been teaching at my current gym for about 6-7 years now. The way it started was like this: We offer 30+ classes per week and the Owner/Chief Instructor is ... organizationally challenged. We had a situation where some of the BJJ instructors were flaking out and not showing up to teach their scheduled class and not arranging for coverage. I was the highest ranked person on hand and I didn't want the students who showed up to not have a class, so I jumped in and taught what I could. Eventually I ended up as a regularly scheduled instructor and I also cover for other teachers when they can't make it. I do this without pay because at this point the school is just making enough to pay rent and can't afford to pay the instructors.

*However:*
There are more classes available than the ones I teach and I don't have to pay for them.
I get to use the school when teaching private lessons which students pay me for.
My instructor periodically gives me some personal instruction or gym gear. (I got a nice gi from him for Christmas a couple of years ago.)
My instructor takes time out to thank me for my contributions to the gym just about every single time I see him.

TLDR: loyalty goes both ways.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

So yes I have gotten things sorted I texted the instructor to meet up today for a chat outside the school since I thought it'd be easier to do away from the school so there's no bad vides in the class in case things did turn sour. But I explained my position of how I feel and he agreed it was to much what I was doing and apologised saying he got caught up in other things and he'll make adjustments. I said I'm happy to teach the kids class regularly since I'm there anyway and I'll assist the adults but I do want to train as well and he agreed he'd get the others to help out as well. He did offer some money back but I declined. I know if I go into that route it can lead to other issues but he said he would give me a new gi which I'd asked to be ordered since mines full of holes for free. So hopefully things are sorted and it can all move on smoothly


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So yes I have gotten things sorted I texted the instructor to meet up today for a chat outside the school since I thought it'd be easier to do away from the school so there's no bad vides in the class in case things did turn sour. But I explained my position of how I feel and he agreed it was to much what I was doing and apologised saying he got caught up in other things and he'll make adjustments. I said I'm happy to teach the kids class regularly since I'm there anyway and I'll assist the adults but I do want to train as well and he agreed he'd get the others to help out as well. He did offer some money back but I declined. I know if I go into that route it can lead to other issues but he said he would give me a new gi which I'd asked to be ordered since mines full of holes for free. So hopefully things are sorted and it can all move on smoothly


Glad to hear it. Sounds like your teacher knew the right thing to do once you brought it to his attention.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Glad to hear it. Sounds like your teacher knew the right thing to do once you brought it to his attention.


Funny thing is people are assuming I was angry about it. I wasn't angry at my instructor I was frustrated at the situation but not angry. No ones perfect we all make mistakes and do things wrong. Every single person no matter from Bruce lee, to ed Parker to the Gracie's no ones a perfect instructor. All I was doing here was stating my facts. I have a ton of respect for my instructor as a martial artist and as a person but that doesn't mean I won't say if I think he's doing things wrong which is all this was


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Funny thing is people are assuming I was angry about it. I wasn't angry at my instructor I was frustrated at the situation but not angry. No ones perfect we all make mistakes and do things wrong. Every single person no matter from Bruce lee, to ed Parker to the Gracie's no ones a perfect instructor. All I was doing here was stating my facts. I have a ton of respect for my instructor as a martial artist and as a person but that doesn't mean I won't say if I think he's doing things wrong which is all this was


I'm not sure why, but most of your posts on this forum come off angrily to me, even when it's obvious that you're not.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm not sure why, but most of your posts on this forum come off angrily to me, even when it's obvious that you're not.


Maybe I'm blunt I don't beat aboht the bush with things and simply state my point maybe that's why but I'm actually a very hard person to get truly angry


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Well, frankly, yeah.  It's way, way, way outside the bounds of normal that something about it doesn't quite sniff right.
> 
> There could be several different reasons for it but most often the reason is that it's not 20 years of continuous training, and I have no doubt that your experience is any different.  While it could be that he's declined to test for 15 straight years (going on the rule of thumb of 3-5 years training to shodan), it much more common, and therefore more likely, that, while he started 20 years ago, he has had long periods of not attending a school.
> 
> ...


Kenpo is not Shotokhan.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2017)

Show me a three year kenpo black belt, and I'll show you a piece of Swiss Cheese.


----------



## jobo (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So yes I have gotten things sorted I texted the instructor to meet up today for a chat outside the school since I thought it'd be easier to do away from the school so there's no bad vides in the class in case things did turn sour. But I explained my position of how I feel and he agreed it was to much what I was doing and apologised saying he got caught up in other things and he'll make adjustments. I said I'm happy to teach the kids class regularly since I'm there anyway and I'll assist the adults but I do want to train as well and he agreed he'd get the others to help out as well. He did offer some money back but I declined. I know if I go into that route it can lead to other issues but he said he would give me a new gi which I'd asked to be ordered since mines full of holes for free. So hopefully things are sorted and it can all move on smoothly


so you went to tell him their was 0 chance off you teaching any class and came away having agreed to teach class, well played that man. Are you in charge of britex negations by any chance


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> You've been doing American Kenpo continuously for *20 YEARS* and only just 6 months ago finally earned black belt?


It took me about 15 years to earn my black belt. I took about 2 years off total during that time, so 13 overall years. I spent about 5 years 1 rank away from black belt...I just didn't care enough to perfect the BB material, and was focusing on my basics.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

jobo said:


> so you went to tell him their was 0 chance off you teaching any class and came away having agreed to teach class, well played that man. Are you in charge of britex negations by any chance


Um no I never said that before I started I didn't want to at all. But I've stated numerous times on this thread that I don't mind helping out time to time as long as it's not every single lesson.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> It took me about 15 years to earn my black belt. I took about 2 years off total during that time, so 13 overall years. I spent about 5 years 1 rank away from black belt...I just didn't care enough to perfect the BB material, and was focusing on my basics.


Pretty much same with me I got to first brown quick enough but after that I knew all the techniques and forms and there wouldn't be any new material to learn apart from a form so I just didn't see the point in testing


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Show me a three year kenpo black belt, and I'll show you a piece of Swiss Cheese.


Agreed there's absolutely 0 way you can learn 154 techniques, 7 forms, 11 sets plus all the basics and get them all to get to a good level in 3 years. It's physically impossible I don't care who you are


----------



## wingchun100 (May 17, 2017)

I could have sworn we were heading toward thread lock with this discussion!


----------



## Tez3 (May 17, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Wow some right nobs on this thread. Sounds like they have there teachers name tattooed on their ***



As far as I know we have no aristocracy on this thread.... nobs are posh people, now, assuming you are being insulting, the word you want is knobs. No, they aren't knobs, this is people having full and frank discussions.


----------



## Headhunter (May 17, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I could have sworn we were heading toward thread lock with this discussion!


Screw you you little....kidding lol


----------



## JR 137 (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Careful.  Apparently if you admit that this sort of environment exists you can be accused of promoting a cult.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Consider me a fan of the Kool Aid


----------



## CB Jones (May 17, 2017)

I tried to start a cult once....called it Jonestown....for whatever reason couldn't find anyone willing to join.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Could it be that since you got your black belt you are now a representative of that school.
> 
> And the instructor feels it is important that you learn how to teach while you are under his supervision since you now represent his dojo.
> 
> When that instructor promoted you he in essence vouched for you and now his name is forever attached to you.  So now he has a vested interest in you and maybe he wants to see how you do in an instructing role.


 This only matters to people who have connection with the school.  He hasn't bonded with his school so none of this matters.  His bond doesn't extend beyond being a customer.  To be honest. He wouldn't be a good teacher or representative of the school because he has no bond beyond being a customer.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I tried to start a cult once....called it Jonestown....for whatever reason couldn't find anyone willing to join.


Yeah, it never goes well for the Hitlers of the world either, I suppose.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I tried to start a cult once....called it Jonestown....for whatever reason couldn't find anyone willing to join.


Try Black Belt Jones Town.


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## Tames D (May 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Good of you to notice. I got a niceness award. I used to have a Humble Badge but they took it back because I was wearing it so much.


Perhaps they should take back your Advisors Badge


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## JowGaWolf (May 17, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Try Black Belt Jones Town.


Where can I sign up.

Cultural Reference


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## Xue Sheng (May 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Where can I sign up.
> 
> Cultural Reference


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## drop bear (May 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen the same thing happen in MMA. A guy gets a fight or two then he's advertised as an instructor who is expected to teach as well as train. fine if he wants to and doesn't have to pay but not if he doesn't want to or actually doesn't know how to teach....it's not a natural talent every martial artist has. Most people have to be taught how to teach.



I agree. 

I was being funny.


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## drop bear (May 17, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Wow some right nobs on this thread. Sounds like they have there teachers name tattooed on their ***



I do own a t shirt. 

I mostly don't teach though.


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## drop bear (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed there's absolutely 0 way you can learn 154 techniques, 7 forms, 11 sets plus all the basics and get them all to get to a good level in 3 years. It's physically impossible I don't care who you are



You can learn heart surgery in that time.

Ok.  I looked that up.  4 to 16 years.


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## Steve (May 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> As far as I know we have no aristocracy on this thread.... nobs are posh people, now, assuming you are being insulting, the word you want is knobs. No, they aren't knobs, this is people having full and frank discussions.


What is one doing when they hob a nob?  How many nobs have you guys hobbed?


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## Tez3 (May 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I was being funny.



If you have to tell us, you weren't.


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## morlock (May 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Stop showing up regularly. Make up a work excuse. If they can't rely on you to show.  They can't rely on you to teach.


That's only avoiding the problem. I find it is always better to deal with problems with other people in a direct, honest, and respectful manner. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## jks9199 (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Funny thing is people are assuming I was angry about it. I wasn't angry at my instructor I was frustrated at the situation but not angry. No ones perfect we all make mistakes and do things wrong. Every single person no matter from Bruce lee, to ed Parker to the Gracie's no ones a perfect instructor. All I was doing here was stating my facts. I have a ton of respect for my instructor as a martial artist and as a person but that doesn't mean I won't say if I think he's doing things wrong which is all this was





kempodisciple said:


> I'm not sure why, but most of your posts on this forum come off angrily to me, even when it's obvious that you're not.



Something important to remember about communication...  The vast majority of human communication is NOT verbal -- but the internet is almost entirely verbal.  This leads to lots of miscommunication and misunderstood tones.  Think about how many different things your significant other can mean with the word "Fine"...  ranging from "don't you dare unless you want to die!" to "Hell, yeah!" and anything in between and sideways of that...  I personally find it's often helpful to sort of assume that I missed the tone rather than read insult or anger or annoyance.

Getting back on topic... I'm glad everything worked out.  Tony covered a lot of things in a post above that I agree with.  There are easily two, probably more, primary approaches to teaching martial arts.  One is commercial; I'll pick on the tae kwon do community because they've excelled in my region at it.  They offer all sorts of services (school drop off and pick up, thinly disguised day care, etc.) and have a very effective commercial footing.  Cool.  Some of them also manage to keep costs down by having "student teachers" paying for the privilege of leading classes as "instructor training."  The worst examples really abuse this sort of thing...  and probably are pushing the boundaries of legality and morality in taking advantage of their student "teachers."

The other approach is the club/family/teaching for the love of the art.  Here, the club is more than a commercial establishment; Bill's posts talk about it well.  It may stay financially solvent, but many run at a loss.  (I know my club does!)  Students, as part of the school community, are more or less expected to contribute in various ways.  One may run the club's website; another handle rent for the training hall, and so on.  Students here may well teach -- and be expected to teach classes depending on how many classes there are.  It's a different approach than the commercial schools and does run risk of different forms of abuse -- including cultish concerns.

And I'm sure there's a lot of room for different balances between these two... or things I haven't even thought of.  (Like a really religious setting...)

In any case, a lot of problems are able to be solved or prevented with good communication between students and the instructor.  If everyone is on the same page about expectations, nobody gets frustrated or feeling like they're being taking advantage of.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 17, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Something important to remember about communication...  The vast majority of human communication is NOT verbal -- but the internet is almost entirely verbal.  This leads to lots of miscommunication and misunderstood tones.  Think about how many different things your significant other can mean with the word "Fine"...  ranging from "don't you dare unless you want to die!" to "Hell, yeah!" and anything in between and sideways of that...  I personally find it's often helpful to sort of assume that I missed the tone rather than read insult or anger or annoyance.


Absolutely, that's why I was pointing out the tone I got from them. I highly doubt he is walking around all the time super angrily (although it's possible). But something about his posts, it may be the content, it may be his writing style, I don't know, come off angry to me, and if it's happening to me it's likely happening to others too.


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## Mark Lynn (May 17, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Regarding the CI taking time out of training the higher dan guys, it seems more of a scheduling problem to me.
> 
> I don't agree lower dan ranks should teach beginners and intermediates so that the CI can teach the higher ranks.  I think the CI should teach all levels.  I'm not saying he/she should teach every single class, but he/she should teach every level and give them just as much attention as each other.
> 
> ...



JR 137

I understand your point here and I agree it's why I said.
"Now in an earlier post in another thread you mentioned that your instructor was a 7th dan, *so perhaps this is what is going on*."  Not that I agreed with this position but perhaps it was going on.  Frankly I was a bit confused by the OP's reason for bringing this out in public instead of simply talking to the instructor, so I figured I'd post another view point of what might be happening.

I am the CI at my school and often times I take the beginners; kids and adults over the more senior students instruction wise to allow them to work together while I work with the beginner because they are really my responsibility.   I also try and foster the community spirit by having the kids or anyone who is senior help out and instruct (even if it is only leading exercises) those who are junior to them.  GM Remy Presas use to tell us that we were to find someone to teach because it helped us learn the material better, and i encourage that teaching amongst my students.  I do make a small profit at my school (enough to pay my house payment each month) and I teach the vast majority of my classes each week (13-15 classes).  I have a couple of Black belts who don't pay but help out in class and cover a class if I have to miss, then I also have some that still pay and again occasionally cover a class for me.

However if one of my black belts came to me and said I don't want to teach ever, I just want to work with the senior belts, and it's all about the money etc. etc.  Then I would charge them more, because it takes more to teach the higher ranks than the juniors, it's more wear and tear on equipment, more chance of getting hurt, more time spent focused on them then the other students etc. etc.

Although I believe in this situation Head Hunter could have simply talked with his CI and got things settled, which it sounds like he did.


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## Mark Lynn (May 17, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Umm this is a martial art forum and the subjects connected to martial arts so...



I get that, I'm just wondering why you air out your dirty laundry here.   I mean you named the thread *Recent Issues* so do you have threads named Past Issues, Current Issues, Issues No one can Help Me With But I Want to Vent about Anyway?   I mean why not start a thread like this.   "Hey guys I just got my Black Belt 6 months ago and now I'm teaching a lot of classes, is this normal?"  Then let everyone chime in.

Instead it came across like your angry at your instructor, the other instructors, the whole situation about teaching, and in the end of it all what several people where all saying about talking with your instructor, you finally did and it's resolved and your good to go.   I don't get why you decided to make people think your instructor is such a bad guy, he even offered to correct the situation and refund some of the money you were griping about paying.

However I'm glad it all worked out for you in the end.


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## morlock (May 18, 2017)

I take this thread as a reminder not to let small problems become big. This and talk to people when something isn't right. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (May 18, 2017)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
Strong opinions are fine, but when tempers start to rise and posters start getting nasty to one another, the poor, overworked, underpaid staff are forced to step in, issue a bunch of warnings, suspend or ban accounts, and all that sort of stuff. Please don't make that necessary.

In short:
*Keep the conversation polite and professional.
*
Thank you.
Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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