# Gyokko Ryu technique Ren'yo



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

I have been practicing Ren'yo over the last week or so on top of my other training and was wondering what are some other peoples henka that they enjoy doing off of Ren'yo?

Basic Movement of Ren'yo is:

Uke punches and you strike inside (Jodan Uke) his arm then he Kicks and you step outside and kick his striking leg. (Keri Gaeshi) Then uke grabs your lapel and you knife hand strike his neck (Shuto) armbar and Ura Gyaku and then Hon Gyaku and finally into a wrist takedown (Omote Gyaku) with a kick.  

Hopefully even now Bujinkan people can get a picture of this the way I laid it out.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I have been practicing Ren'yo over the last week or so on top of my other training and was wondering what are some other peoples henka that they enjoy doing off of Ren'yo?


A very simple one is to kick uke's opposite leg after defending against their kick. Or, instead of keri kudaki, catch uke's kick with your foot and overextend it.
I just thought of a nasty henka that Noguchi sensei showed us a few years ago. Immediately after defending the kick, pivot cc and strike with left boshiken up into uke's testicles from behind (ura tarako boshi ? ). Right hand can redirect uke's grab if needed.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> A very simple one is to kick uke's opposite leg after defending against their kick. Or, instead of keri kudaki, catch uke's kick with your foot and overextend it.
> I just thought of a nasty henka that Noguchi sensei showed us a few years ago. Immediately after defending the kick, pivot cc and strike with left boshiken up into uke's testicles from behind (ura tarako boshi ? ). Right hand can redirect uke's grab if needed.


 
Hey Kreth, 

I think I might have seen that nasty testicle boshiken strike.  I like the one where you catch uke's kick and overextend it.  However, I am a very flexible person and even then that is really scary for the me/uke. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (as if almost everything isn't)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I think I might have seen that nasty testicle boshiken strike.


I jumped halfway across his dojo when he did that to me. :lol:
Another one: When uke does his lapel grab, trap his hand with your right, then step across with your left, using your left arm/shoulder to bar the elbow. Usually it works best for me if I extend my left arm as if trying to touch uke's left shoulder. Then you can kick upwards with the left foot into uke's groin and throw via the armbar, a nasty uchi mata-type throw.
Or: Do the kata as written up until omote gyaku. Then, instead of the normal kick, wait until uke is on the way down and hit him with either a stomp or axe kick to the chest or face.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I jumped halfway across his dojo when he did that to me. :lol:
> Another one: When uke does his lapel grab, trap his hand with your right, then step across with your left, using your left arm/shoulder to bar the elbow. Usually it works best for me if I extend my left arm as if trying to touch uke's left shoulder. Then you can kick upwards with the left foot into uke's groin and throw via the armbar, a nasty uchi mata-type throw.
> Or: Do the kata as written up until omote gyaku. Then, instead of the normal kick, wait until uke is on the way down and hit him with either a stomp or axe kick to the chest or face.


 
That is a nice one, I will have to give that a try. (the first henka)

I like the second henka you put out here as well that one is very good and efficient in my book.

I like to also take the basic form and the one you just mentioned at the end and put a senban shuriken or Shuko in/on my hands and practice the techniques. (both tools are training tools of course :rofl

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I like the second henka you put out here as well that one is very good and efficient in my book.


I was training with a friend once and had him try that henka. He'd never tried an axe kick before and ended up coming down on my sternum almost full-force. I slammed down on my back, waved him off when he asked if I was ok (no wind to speak with ) and just lay there for a few minutes... :lol:
The only problem I have with henka is when people train in Japan or at a seminar, and think that because Hatsumi sensei's movement is so free, they can do whatever they want. I love henka, but I try to do what I'm shown. Later on, I'll analyze it, try to figure out exactly why each movement is there, then play around with henka, *on my own time.*


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I was training with a friend once and had him try that henka. He'd never tried an axe kick before and ended up coming down on my sternum almost full-force. I slammed down on my back, waved him off when he asked if I was ok (no wind to speak with ) and just lay there for a few minutes... :lol:
> The only problem I have with henka is when people train in Japan or at a seminar, and think that because Hatsumi sensei's movement is so free, they can do whatever they want. I love henka, but I try to do what I'm shown. Later on, I'll analyze it, try to figure out exactly why each movement is there, then play around with henka, *on my own time.*


 
Absolutely, I am with you there one hundred percent.  When the Boss is showing a technique that is what you should be working on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Another thing that I like to do is have the uke throw a cross or big looping roundhouse punch and follow it up with a rear leg front kick.  Does not change the technique much Other than you generally have less time to get off line and need to have your movement be very precise.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Another thing that I like to do is have the uke throw a cross or big looping roundhouse punch and follow it up with a rear leg front kick. Does not change the technique much Other than you generally have less time to get off line and need to have your movement be very precise.


Depending on how you kick uke's leg, he may be turned slightly away from you. When I'm uke, I always want to throw an elbow. That's another interesting attack to work with, changes the space and timing slightly.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Depending on how you kick uke's leg, he may be turned slightly away from you. When I'm uke, I always want to throw an elbow. That's another interesting attack to work with, changes the space and timing slightly.


 
Yes if you kick his leg and his back ends up to you that gives all new kinds of possibilities.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Staying really with the basic kata.  Sometimes I will not defend the punch other than just moving out of it's way and play with the distance then continue with the rest of the technique after the uke kick's.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Yes if you kick his leg and his back ends up to you that gives all new kinds of possibilities.


Once in a while, I like to do a sort of controlled randori. You start with a kata, but depending on actions of uke and tori, you can quickly get into henka. Not something you want to do with a brand new student, but you can work at different speeds to get students used to unscripted attacks.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Once in a while, I like to do a sort of controlled randori. You start with a kata, but depending on actions of uke and tori, you can quickly get into henka. Not something you want to do with a brand new student, but you can work at different speeds to get students used to unscripted attacks.


 
Hey Kreth, 

That sounds great.  I like to put on headgear and belly pads and let the uke attack with full intent to hit and do substantial damage.  That helps to bring up speed and provide a threat level of damage if you do not move your feet.  Of course I only like to do this after quite a bit of slow practice and working on perfecting the technique. (slow is always good )

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bujin (Aug 30, 2006)

Talking about Renyo, to me, since the kata includes several attacks and responses to them I like to explore the dynamics between these; the initial attack from Uke, the response from Tori and the reaction and counter attack from Uke. This Kata clearly shows dynamics in a real fight scenario where an attack might lead to another or not depending on the response. 

So, if the first attack is not countered in a "correct" way, there may not be a follow up kick at all but a punch or a move into a defensive position by Uke. The same goes for the defense against the kick. Some people dont seem to reflect on the impact of the counterattack thus I have seen some pretty funny situations where Uke has reached out to grab the lapel only because the Kata says so and in reality he was in such a lousy position that doing just that would be the least intelligent way to react in real life.

This is how I approach the Kata, by checking each "step" along the way and exploring it with basic knowledge of taijutsu, and until i´ve fully covered the whole Kata I do not like to move into any henka.

Best Regards /


Bujin


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Bujin said:
			
		

> Talking about Renyo, to me, since the kata includes several attacks and responses to them I like to explore the dynamics between these; the initial attack from Uke, the response from Tori and the reaction and counter attack from Uke. This Kata clearly shows dynamics in a real fight scenario where an attack might lead to another or not depending on the response.
> 
> So, if the first attack is not countered in a "correct" way, there may not be a follow up kick at all but a punch or a move into a defensive position by Uke. The same goes for the defense against the kick. Some people dont seem to reflect on the impact of the counterattack thus I have seen some pretty funny situations where Uke has reached out to grab the lapel only because the Kata says so and in reality he was in such a lousy position that doing just that would be the least intelligent way to react in real life.
> 
> ...


 
Nice post and a very good way to train I might add.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 30, 2006)

Bujin said:
			
		

> Talking about Renyo, to me, since the kata includes several attacks and responses to them I like to explore the dynamics between these; the initial attack from Uke, the response from Tori and the reaction and counter attack from Uke. This Kata clearly shows dynamics in a real fight scenario where an attack might lead to another or not depending on the response.


This is kind of what I was getting at in my earlier post. It's interesting to break down the kata and try to figure out exactly why uke and tori do what they do. 


> thus I have seen some pretty funny situations where Uke has reached out to grab the lapel only because the Kata says so and in reality he was in such a lousy position that doing just that would be the least intelligent way to react in real life.


Yeah, I was training Renyo once with a friend, and clipped his Achilles Tendon just right. His leg collapsed when he put it down from the kick. He pushed back up to his feet and proceeded with the grab...


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## Cryozombie (Aug 30, 2006)

I just started working renyo myself... I havnt looked so much at any henka... Ive been focusing on trying to "force" the follow up attacks... similar to what Bujinsaid...  I'm trying to make sure that my techniques and positions are optimal that after the strike, the Uke WANTS to kick, and after the kick, he HAS to grab to stabilize... 

Its not as easy as It sounds.  LOL!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I just started working renyo myself... I havnt looked so much at any henka... Ive been focusing on trying to "force" the follow up attacks... similar to what Bujinsaid... I'm trying to make sure that my techniques and positions are optimal that after the strike, the Uke WANTS to kick, and after the kick, he HAS to grab to stabilize...
> 
> Its not as easy as It sounds. LOL!


 
Is that not the truth. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bujin (Aug 31, 2006)

> and after the kick, he HAS to grab to stabilize...


 
Thats exacly how I used to do it and even though I´ve seen many others do it the same way, even high ranking people showing it like that, I have moved away from that approach (at least at this point in training).

If Uke were to grab because he lost his balance it would be the easiest thing in the world to follow up with a throw or some other type of balance take down. Why on earth would Tori let him get his balance?

The Ura Kiten strike to Ukes head suggests to me that he has a rather firm grip that needs to be countered by the strike and the move to hon gyaku/ura gyaku. I see it more as an instictive grab by Uke to prevent Tori from moving away after having done the counter kick. Uke could also follow up with a left hand punch. Thus Tori strikes Uko to re-take the initiative and stop incoming left hand attacks. On ukes reaction from the strike Tori moves into the control grip, which Uke of course resists, leading to the Omote Kote Gyaku.

This move works really fine for me but its just my interpretation of the Kata.

Best Regards /

Bujin


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

One of the true beauties of Budo Taijutsu is that there are so many different ways to go during the course of any waza when working on henka.  If uke does something different then you need to flow into something else.

Take the basic waza and the various shown henka and then explore and see what you can find.  That is beautiful!  As a practitioner it is also enjoyable to explore what could be in the moment.  That is truly one of the great gifts of Hatsumi Sensei's Budo.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Don Roley (Aug 31, 2006)

Bujin said:
			
		

> If Uke were to grab because he lost his balance it would be the easiest thing in the world to follow up with a throw or some other type of balance take down. Why on earth would Tori let him get his balance?



Uh, who said tori has to let him get his balance?

There are a lot of different ways to do this. Some of them are official henka, and some are the natural offshoot of the principles you find in the kata. I don't like to talk about things like this on the internet because it really can't be transmitted by words, or even video IMO.

Brian, if you get to Japan like you expect, ask me to introduce you to Kizaru. He can run you through this kata from top to bottom. He loves Dunkin Donuts French Vanilla coffee and would probably be pleased to help you if asked. He is very knowledgable about the subject matter.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Uh, who said tori has to let him get his balance?
> 
> There are a lot of different ways to do this. Some of them are official henka, and some are the natural offshoot of the principles you find in the kata. I don't like to talk about things like this on the internet because it really can't be transmitted by words, or even video IMO.
> 
> Brian, if you get to Japan like you expect, ask me to introduce you to Kizaru. He can run you through this kata from top to bottom. He loves Dunkin Donuts French Vanilla coffee and would probably be pleased to help you if asked. He is very knowledgable about the subject matter.


 
Hey Don,

I have met Rich before.  He showed Bart and I around Noda when we were trying to look for a Kamidana.  You are absolutely right that he is very knowledgeable on this kata.



Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Don,

What is your favorite part about Renyo!  Or better phrased which aspect of it do you like.  For me I like the multiple attack's and then that the uke is trying to grab during his attacks.  I also enjoy of course the footwork that gets you off the line and outside of his attack. (That I can appreciate alot)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kizaru (Aug 31, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> What is your favorite part about Renyo! Or better phrased which aspect of it do you like.


 
I like how Renyo is a bridge between the distances of Koku and Danshu.

Koku, as you know, starts at "striking" distance, dealing with punches and kicks. Danshu starts at a "grappling" distance where the opponent still has the distance to strike. The ura shuto in Danshu has the same purpose as the ura shuto in Renyo, keeping the opponent at a distance where its more difficult to counterattack with the free hand. As everyone here I'm sure is familiar with, the first three kata in the Joryaku no Maki are Koku, Renyo and Danshu. I see Renyo as beginning at striking distance, then closing the gap to a grappling distance. If you tried fitting in a koshi nage instead of kicking during the omote gyaku, you could even close the distance a step closer... 

So that's what I like about it; how it bridges the gap between Koku, Danshu and the opponent...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I like how Renyo is a bridge between the distances of Koku and Danshu.
> 
> Koku, as you know, starts at "striking" distance, dealing with punches and kicks. Danshu starts at a "grappling" distance where the opponent still has the distance to strike. The ura shuto in Danshu has the same purpose as the ura shuto in Renyo, keeping the opponent at a distance where its more difficult to counterattack with the free hand. As everyone here I'm sure is familiar with, the first three kata in the Joryaku no Maki are Koku, Renyo and Danshu. I see Renyo as beginning at striking distance, then closing the gap to a grappling distance. If you tried fitting in a koshi nage instead of kicking during the omote gyaku, you could even close the distance a step closer...
> 
> So that's what I like about it; how it bridges the gap between Koku, Danshu and the opponent...


 
I like that!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cryozombie (Aug 31, 2006)

Bujin said:
			
		

> If Uke were to grab because he lost his balance it would be the easiest thing in the world to follow up with a throw or some other type of balance take down. Why on earth would Tori let him get his balance?
> Best Regards /
> 
> Bujin



Just to clarify, I also mean stabilize as in "Grab you to stop you from moving around and avoid his attacks"


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, I also mean stabilize as in "Grab you to stop you from moving around and avoid his attacks"


 
Thanks for the clarifications Techno.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 31, 2006)

Back to the strategy aspect of the kata. If you're trying to do the kata as written, then the angle of your initial movement inside uke's punch becomes key. You want to be just outside the range of uke's left hand, so his best option becomes the right (front leg) kick.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Back to the strategy aspect of the kata. If you're trying to do the kata as written, then the angle of your initial movement inside uke's punch becomes key. You want to be just outside the range of uke's left hand, so his best option becomes the right (front leg) kick.


 
So he/she just flows into that kick and you can then take advantage of them by moving off line and kicking their outstretched leg.  It is a sound and very good strategy.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 31, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> So he/she just flows into that kick and you can then take advantage of them by moving off line and kicking their outstretched leg. It is a sound and very good strategy.


I wasn't think of it so much as a strategy, as a way to do the kata correctly. If my angle on the first movement is off, uke can just throw the left and doesn't need to kick. If I'm too close to his lead foot, then he may use a different attack, or even move back. This kind of thing is what I get from breaking down kata on my own. "Why do I move here, and not here?" "Why am I using this strike?"


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I wasn't think of it so much as a strategy, as a way to do the kata correctly. If my angle on the first movement is off, uke can just throw the left and doesn't need to kick. If I'm too close to his lead foot, then he may use a different attack, or even move back. This kind of thing is what I get from breaking down kata on my own. "Why do I move here, and not here?" "Why am I using this strike?"


 
Okay, that is good.  I am usually trying to get that position just right as well.  So I can definately understand that.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 31, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Okay, that is good. I am usually trying to get that position just right as well. So I can definately understand that.


I've always liked Renyo. It seems like you're just out of uke's reach, and after each attack, you're saying "Oooooooo, that *almost* got me. C'mon, try again."


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I've always liked Renyo. It seems like you're just out of uke's reach, and after each attack, you're saying "Oooooooo, that *almost* got me. C'mon, try again."


 
Yes it is a fun kata to work with! :ultracool 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 31, 2006)

Although it sounds familiar, I am trying to visualize the kata as described, I am sure I have done it, I am weak on names and some of the various terminologies, but if I felt it, I could tell you if it is familiar or not.  Honestly though, because it is so hard to convey in words  and it has a feeling with it, I would rather us get together on the mat and do the kata and play with the various henka.   Of course, I know it isn't possible, but.... I will be at the Bujinkan Buyu Camp East next month....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Although it sounds familiar, I am trying to visualize the kata as described, I am sure I have done it, I am weak on names and some of the various terminologies, but if I felt it, I could tell you if it is familiar or not. Honestly though, because it is so hard to convey in words and it has a feeling with it, I would rather us get together on the mat and do the kata and play with the various henka. Of course, I know it isn't possible, but.... I will be at the Bujinkan Buyu Camp East next month....


 
Hey Dave,

That is a great way to know if you are familiar with a technique is by doing it on the mats.    I am sure that you have practiced Renyo before and will remember the movements when practicing it again in your dojo.  I to am horrible with names and terminology too. (it is not my strong suit)  While I cannot make the Bujinkan Buyu East Camp next month, I am sure that you will have a great time.  Someday we will have to get all of the MartialTalk Budo Taijutsu guy's together for training.  Who knows maybe it will be sooner rather than later. :ultracool 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Someday we will have to get all of the MartialTalk Budo Taijutsu guy's together for training.  Who knows maybe it will be sooner rather than later. :ultracool



Yeah, that would be cool!  :ultracool


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## Kreth (Sep 1, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Someday we will have to get all of the MartialTalk Budo Taijutsu guy's together for training.


Well, if you would like Jeffrey S. Velten to attend, please contact my agent. 



:uhyeah:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 1, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Well, if you would like Jeffrey S. Velten&#8482; to attend, please contact my agent.
> 
> 
> 
> :uhyeah:


 
Okay Mr. Velten, I will contact your agent.  If I am correct his name if Jeff, right?


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## Kreth (Sep 1, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Okay Mr. Velten, I will contact your agent. If I am correct his name if Jeff, right?


Yes, that's m--er, him.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 1, 2006)

Speaking of Renyo I had a chance to watch some of the footage on the Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu DVD for the 2001 Tai Kai.  Very good stuff.

Here is a link to where you could buy this video : http://shinkentaijutsu.com/content/btsd_store.php


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 1, 2006)

Here is the preview of the DVD.

http://shinkentaijutsu.com/tv/downloadembed.php?file=2005.July.64k.rm


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## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2006)

I have got to start buying videos!   That was a good demo video.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 1, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I have got to start buying videos!  That was a good demo video.


 
It is a pretty slick DVD set.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## saru1968 (Sep 1, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I have got to start buying videos!  That was a good demo video.


 
Hi

I've upgraded all my VHS to DVD so if there are any VHS titles you are after let me know as i will shortly get rid of them on Ebay.


Gary


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## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2006)

saru1968 said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I've upgraded all my VHS to DVD so if there are any VHS titles you are after let me know as i will shortly get rid of them on Ebay.



Thanks!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

If you are interested in seeing a henka of Renyo then here is one from www.kihon.com. This version has two punches and then the kick.

http://movies.kihon.com/jandemo1.avi 

I met Joe briefly at the the last Tai Kai in New Jersey 2003.
This is about the only video I have seen on Renyo on the internet.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

Oh and I did not post this to critique Joe but to discuss the waza of Renyo!


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## Kreth (Sep 4, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Oh and I did not post this to critique Joe but to discuss the waza of Renyo!


Brian, I'm getting an error message when I try to play the video. I tried opening it through IE and downloading it first. Did we just slashdot Joe's site? 
Edit: Nevermind. I just had a file association problem on my end. It's fixed now.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 4, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Oh and I did not post this to critique Joe but to discuss the waza of Renyo!




Thanks for the video.  I hope Joe don't mind.  So that is what renyo is... :lol: Yes, I have done that. 

I don't know if this would be considered henka, but I like to end it a little faster, rather than keep maintaining the distance on each attack, I like closing the distance, maybe on the second punch, slipping it and taking their balance on their punch (not on the 1 and 2, but the 1 and...), could also be done on the kick.  Maybe put something in the space their head or chest needs to occupy, forcing them to change shape on the half step.  The go next... maybe take the head to their third point behind them, or their shoulder, or maybe a hip.  I really don't know where or how I would go unless I was actually doing it.  It all depends on the attacker.  

Just some ideas I think would work.  Of course my description probably changed it from renyo to something totally different altogether.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

Hey I spent hours the other day looking for Renyo clips on the internet and today I just happened to this clip on Joe's site.  I am sure he does not mind as we are driving traffic there! :rofl:

Of course there are lots of Henka off Renyo but the reason I like it is for the multiple attack punch/kick combination.  That makes it pretty useful to work with in my mind.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 4, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Of course there are lots of Henka off Renyo but the reason I like it is for the multiple attack punch/kick combination.  That makes it pretty useful to work with in my mind.



I like multiple attacks as well.   I also like multiple attackers


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I like multiple attacks as well.  I also like multiple attackers


 
Yep working with multiple people is a great way to make your taijutsu better.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 5, 2006)

Here is the only other henka that I have observed on the internet.  It took me quite awhile to find this as well.  It should give anther point to discuss the waza.  Here is is: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005434261036973128&q=renyo

Once again let's not be critical but continue to disucss the waza of Renyo.


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## hwarangdo-adam (Sep 5, 2006)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh look out the ninjas will get u


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## Bigshadow (Sep 5, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is the only other henka that I have observed on the internet. It took me quite awhile to find this as well. It should give anther point to discuss the waza. Here is is: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005434261036973128&q=renyo
> 
> Once again let's not be critical but continue to disucss the waza of Renyo.



I can see where it may be possible when the kick occurs to slip it and take the space uke needs for his hip and leg while shifting into a ganseke nage. 

There could be a throw in there by dropping into the same spot I mentioned above while taking his grabbing hand to his third point (maybe even the one behind him via between his ankles). I believe by taking that space his hip and leg need to be in, he will be off balance and following through with the hand could be possible.

Possible?  I dunno, looks like it might be.  Of course I could be bonkers too!


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## Kreth (Sep 6, 2006)

hwarangdo-adam said:


> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh look out the ninjas will get u


If you have nothing to add on the topic, then refrain from posting.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 6, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I can see where it may be possible when the kick occurs to slip it and take the space uke needs for his hip and leg while shifting into a ganseke nage.
> 
> There could be a throw in there by dropping into the same spot I mentioned above while taking his grabbing hand to his third point (maybe even the one behind him via between his ankles). I believe by taking that space his hip and leg need to be in, he will be off balance and following through with the hand could be possible.
> 
> Possible? I dunno, looks like it might be. Of course I could be bonkers too!


 
No what you are descibing is possible I believe. :asian:  Mention it to your instructor or give it a whirl in class and let us know.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Here is another instructors interpretation of Ren'yo! Enjoy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2421983789669578651&q=bujinkan


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## Bigshadow (Oct 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is another instructors interpretation of Ren'yo! Enjoy.
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2421983789669578651&q=bujinkan



I like how he pointed out the koshi (sp?) at the end.  Those little bonuses are fun to incorporate into many things!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I like how he pointed out the koshi (sp?) at the end. Those little bonuses are fun to incorporate into many things!


 
Absolutely!


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## buyu (Oct 22, 2006)

i agree with bujin cause well how many times have you been goin through the movements and thought i wouldnt of done that cause thats just wrong for the body to do that i also feel that you have to consider how fast your doin your technique as the body will change at different speeds and this has to be considered aswell being uke you have to make it more realistic so if its not working dont just go through the motions just cause you think thats right put them right and if you cant help then the instructor should be able to help 

thanks


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## Kreth (Oct 23, 2006)

buyu said:


> i agree with bujin cause well how many times have you been goin through the movements and thought i wouldnt of done that cause thats just wrong for the body to do that i also feel that you have to consider how fast your doin your technique as the body will change at different speeds and this has to be considered aswell being uke you have to make it more realistic so if its not working dont just go through the motions just cause you think thats right put them right and if you cant help then the instructor should be able to help
> 
> thanks


One word. Punctuation.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 23, 2006)

buyu said:


> i also feel that you have to consider how fast your doin your technique as the body will change at different speeds



I would disagree...  IMO if done correctly only the speed changes (with the exception of 0 speed).  Speed is a component that can be put in and taken out without changing the principles.  Although there are many things that can be negatively changed by stopping, because it is important to keep moving (fast or slow).

I would stick my neck out and say IMO if something feels different when done with speed than without speed, balance is probably being lost (something is coming out of alignment head, shoulders, hips, heels).  It should feel the same, but faster or slower.

Just my .02 cents worth.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 23, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> I would stick my neck out and say IMO if something feels different when done with speed than without speed, balance is probably being lost (something is coming out of alignment head, shoulders, hips, heels). It should feel the same, but faster or slower.
> 
> Just my .02 cents worth.


 
I understand where you are coming from... BUT... I think that certain attacks and things, when done slow, dont mimic the dynamic of the real attack... because of the level of force and overcommitmnet the balance doesnt change the way it would for real... UNLESS your Uke understands the differernce and "Fakes it"

Ive seen guys throw in fights, fail to connect and stagger forward or fall because they had so much behind the hit and nothing to stop it... IMO a slow controlled punch in a dojo situation wont replicate that.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 23, 2006)

Cryozombie said:


> Ive seen guys throw in fights, fail to connect and stagger forward or fall because they had so much behind the hit and nothing to stop it... IMO a slow controlled punch in a dojo situation wont replicate that.



Why would I want to replicate poor fighting skills?  Even as uke, I want to attack with realism, but also with good balanced kamae.  IMO, those guys who throw it all in like you describe make it that much easier to take down.  It is the skilled person that doesn't over commit that is more difficult to deal with.

There is a difference between a committed attack and over committed attack. The first will have balance and the latter will not.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 23, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Why would I want to replicate poor fighting skills? Even as uke, I want to attack with realism, but also with good balanced kamae.


 
Take this with a grain of salt, cuz I dont actually know what I am talking about, this is just my opinion... but...

I know a lot of people feel a punch is a punch, and train that way, but I am of the school of thinking that they are NOT the same, and train against both.  As you say, one has balance and one does not, one is easier to counter, and one is not... But try doing the same counter against both types of attacks, and you might find that what works against an attacker with good balance and a solid stance might not unless you chase the off balance guy...and why would you wanna do that?  Now... a skilled practitioner would know better and simply not do it, but at lower levels of training, or somone with the same eyes, might not... they might be so concerned about making the technique work, that they put themselves in a bad place.  Because of that *I* feel that seeing and working against both helps cement the idea in the mind of the student that its a fluid situation... anyhow, I know it helped me.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 23, 2006)

Cryozombie said:


> I know a lot of people feel a punch is a punch, and train that way, but I am of the school of thinking that they are NOT the same, and train against both.



IMO, I believe they are the same.  Just the over committed attacker breaks his own balance and the committed attacker must have his balance broken by you.  In either case it is also important to have proper distance and timing.

Just my .02 cents worth.


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## buyu (Oct 26, 2006)

thats so true cryozombie bro some one out of control fights differently to some one in control and a good practitioner and instructor will look at that and prepare themselves and others they train with for all basic outcomes eg drunks p fri addicts and other martial artists etc what will happen when you fight these sorts of ppl what will work what wont ppl on fri dont feel pain so you break them so they cant move to atack you ,also what if your injured hands tied my shidoshi makes sure we all know these situations and what we can do
thanks guys

sorry bout the punctuation school wasnt as interestin as trainin


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