# Is Tang Soo Do a Kicking Art?



## Makalakumu (Apr 29, 2008)

Is Tang Soo Do a kicking art?  If so, why?  If not, why not?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 29, 2008)

Yes. Tang Soo Do focuses at least as much, if not more, on foot techniques as hand techniques. Some schools will focus more on hand techniques and some more on foot techniques. Some, those with a heavy focus on sparring, will focus on kicking almost to the exclusion of punching, simply because a kick often has more range and impact than a punch, and because there are more ways to kick someone than to punch someone. 

Any way you slice it though, kicking is an integral part of Tang Soo Do. 

If you're asking why kicks aren't more represented in hyung, well you know the answer. Many Japanese styles don't typically kick, except to the knee or inside of the leg. Do I think we should correct that? Maybe. I've toyed with the idea a few times, and there are some schools that have changed the hyung to include more kicks or even invented new hyung for kicking techniques, and, while I typically like to stay more traditional, I gotta commend them for recognizing that kicks are important to TSD, a lot more important than to karate.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 29, 2008)

My teacher invented a series of 9 kicking forms in order to teach kicking concepts up to black belt.  I think they are great and I teach them to my students.

As to the question of whether or not TSD is a kicking art, I would say that it is not.  TSD has a lot of other techniques in its hyung that are not explored in the curriculum.  

The way I think of kicking in TSD in my dojang, I see it as henka, or variation on hyung techniques.  Whether its bunkai or oyo, the kicking techniques need to be known by all.

That said, some kicking techniques are pretty much useless.  San bal aph cha nut gi for instance.  No worth at all unless you are trying to impress girls.


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## JWLuiza (Apr 29, 2008)

It depends on what your definition of a "kicking art" is.  The art as traditionally taught did focus mainly on kicks more so than other Te-derived arts.  But, as you know, there is a difference between how an art is taught, vs. what tools are found within the art.


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## e ship yuk (Apr 30, 2008)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Is Tang Soo Do a kicking art?  If so, why?  If not, why not?



I'll be pedantic, and say that depends on your definition of Tang Soo Do.

If by Tang Soo Do you mean the art descended from karate-do, whose curriculum and techniques are cataloged in hyung, then no, TSD is not a kicking art.  It is primarily a grab and strike art.

If you mean the art spread from Korea concurrent with taekwondo, then yes, it is a kicking art.  The Koreans seem to value the leg as a weapon, perhaps seeing in its range and power something superior; this seems to pervade practice of both arts, especially in their sparring.  Whether this practice in TSD is a result of cross-pollination from TKD or some other reason, I don't know.

If you mean the art taught by Hwang Kee now called Soo Bahk Do... with my little knowledge of it, I'd say maybe.  I still see SBD people practice these kicks, but the focus mainly seems to be on a balance between hard and soft.

And yes, I realize all of these are really the same thing, to a varying degree or another, but think we can all agree that whether it is a kicking art will primarily depend on a) how you are taught, and b) how you practice.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> ... and because there are more ways to kick someone than to punch someone.



Interesting.  I'd have said the opposite.  Excluding jumping, skipping, spinning, etc... variations, I can think of more hand techniques than I can kicks, though it's close.  It's even more disparate if you count striking surfaces instead of actual techniques - there are just more ways to hit someone with your hands/arms than with your feet/legs.

Of course, again being pedantic, that depends on what you define as a "kick" and a "punch," too.  Elbows?  Knees?  Interesting discussion for another thread.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> If you're asking why kicks aren't more represented in hyung, well you know the answer. Many Japanese styles don't typically kick, except to the knee or inside of the leg. Do I think we should correct that? Maybe. I've toyed with the idea a few times, and there are some schools that have changed the hyung to include more kicks or even invented new hyung for kicking techniques, and, while I typically like to stay more traditional, I gotta commend them for recognizing that kicks are important to TSD, a lot more important than to karate.



This is what I find interesting about the new forms we've seen from the Kukkiwon.  They integrate better with the other methods taught in the curriculum.

Many schools, IMO, teach three different methods of fighting: forms, sparring, and one-steps/self defense.  You will often see vastly disparate techniques used in the three.  Sometimes you'll see self-defense based on forms, which I've seen you mention yours does, JT.  Often, though, schools leave the forms as a standalone exercise.  The new KKW forms look to me to have formed from the premise of "We fight based on these criteria, let's design a form based on that."  While I won't vouch necessarily for the effectiveness of it, it seems to me to follow their combat ideology better.  I see techniques to push the opponent away, followed by power techniques to take him down.  I see sequences describing chasing down a fleeing opponent.

Again, while I won't vouch for their usefulness, I'm somewhat glad to see forms that can be better used by a kick-fighter.



upnorthkyosa said:


> My teacher invented a series of 9 kicking forms in order to teach kicking concepts up to black belt.  I think they are great and I teach them to my students.



Is your instructor, or his, perchance GM James Saffold?  I got to attend a seminar of his on kicking and balance drills in February.  They were forms he had designed for his students, although I think there were 10.  He had two sets, now that I think about it... Chu Mei and Choong Shim.  "Fun" and "Balance."  Great stuff.  Loved the seminar.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 30, 2008)

e ship yuk said:


> Is your instructor, or his, perchance GM James Saffold? I got to attend a seminar of his on kicking and balance drills in February. They were forms he had designed for his students, although I think there were 10. He had two sets, now that I think about it... Chu Mei and Choong Shim. "Fun" and "Balance." Great stuff. Loved the seminar.


 
My teacher is Mr. Dan Knoll from St. Cloud MN.  The forms I referenced can be found here.

I practice TSD as a well rounded art that includes kicking, striking, clinching, and grappling.  Most of it is found in our forms.  Some is implied.

At higher levels, we include weapons.


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## agemechanic03 (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey UpNorth, I tried to go and view the vids, but once you click on the link to the vid, it just gives an explanation of what you are doing, but no video to view. It could just be my computer, but can ya check it out for me sir?

Tang Soo!!


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## JT_the_Ninja (May 1, 2008)

I suppose I interpreted "kicking art" as "a martial art that includes kicking as a primary tool," which is a bit broad, I suppose. I don't mean at all to suppose that TSD is mostly kicking. In fact, I often describe it to others as an art that has a pretty even mix of hand and foot techniques.

As to there being more ways to kick someone than to punch them, name me a punch that TSD has that isn't either a straight punch or a jab. Sure, there are plenty of hand techniques - our art is replete with hand techniques, from blocks and deflects to grabs and locks and elbow strikes (one of my favorites for breaking). However, since a lot of schools have a big focus on sparring, a lot of that isn't practiced beyond self-defense drills. The only hand techniques you can use in most sparring situations are center punches/jabs, which are usually only done when you see an opening and you're close enough in that the speed of a punch makes it the right tool for the job. 

Anyway, all that said, TSD is an art where kicking is a primary tool. Not always _the_ primary tool, but always _a_ primary tool.


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## e ship yuk (May 1, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> As to there being more ways to kick someone than to punch them, name me a punch that TSD has that isn't either a straight punch or a jab.  Sure, there are plenty of hand techniques - our art is replete with hand techniques, from blocks and deflects to grabs and locks and elbow strikes (one of my favorites for breaking).



When I see the word "punch," I think hand strike.  When I see "kick," I think foot strike.  If we're limiting to technical punches, i.e., closed fist strike with the front side of the knuckles, then yes, there are few of them: straight punch, hook punch, vertical punch, uppercut.

Limiting hand strikes in that way, though, is akin to limiting yourself to only kicks with the ball the foot.  You're left with only front kick, roundhouse, and twist kick.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> However, since a lot of schools have a big focus on sparring, a lot of that isn't practiced beyond self-defense drills. The only hand techniques you can use in most sparring situations are center punches/jabs, which are usually only done when you see an opening and you're close enough in that the speed of a punch makes it the right tool for the job.



Most people would say my school has a heavy emphasis on sparring.  The hand strikes I use on a regular basis in sparring, in order from greatest usage to least:

Backhand, ridgehand, reverse punch, lunge punch, hammerfist, hook punch, palm heel (only when we can scrounge up face shields).  

The only reason more aren't included are mostly because of the gloves - makes it difficult, for instance, to throw a knifehand to the side of the neck.

I made it my goal in one tournament to ridgehand every one of my opponents in the groin.  Did it, too.  

My school isn't usual about fighting, though, in respect to most TSD schools.  We allow face contact, kicks and punches to the head, the groin is a legal target area, we allow grabs and sweeps, attacks to the lower back and sides of the neck.  Knee lift strikes, too.  Pretty heavy contact.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> Anyway, all that said, TSD is an art where kicking is a primary tool. Not always _the_ primary tool, but always _a_ primary tool.



I could agree with that assessment.


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