# can someone verrify this



## tshadowchaser

found this on face book.  Anyone here ever train with him in arnis .  Im sure there are some here that might have studied under him at one time in his own style/system.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/...et=a.1085588666930.2015714.1442810908&theater

I met him a few times but never heard of the above before


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## MJS

Not seeing anything Sheldon.  When I click on the link, it takes me to the FB log on.  I log on, and it takes me to my homepage.


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## Steve

MJS said:


> Not seeing anything Sheldon.  When I click on the link, it takes me to the FB log on.  I log on, and it takes me to my homepage.



Did that work?


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## MJS

stevebjj said:


> Did that work?


 
Yes it did.  Thanks. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_van_Clief

Honestly, this is news to me.  Never knew a) that he trained Modern Arnis and b) that he was ranked that high.  I'll shoot my Arnis teacher an email and ask him if he knows anything about this.


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## searcher

I never know that Ron trained in Arnis, but I knew he was ranked very high in Goju-ryu under Peter Urban.


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## terryl965

Come on people you know you can get rank ina week if need be....


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## Carol

That doesn't make sense.  Datu Tim Hartman was Professor Presas' highest ranked American student in Modern Arnis when the Professor passed away in 2001.  He might well be a tremendous martial artist but A 7th degree by 1977 doesn't seem right.


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## MJS

Heard back from my teacher.  Unless I get his ok to post everything he said, I wont, however, I'll just say this much.....what we're seeing here is in a nutshell, highly suspect.  

Moral of the story...just because someone is wearing a high rank with a bunch of fancy stripes, just because someone has a ton of pictures hanging in their dojo, of people they've 'trained' with, just because someone has a cert. 'supposedly' signed by a GM, doesnt mean that its legit.  There is alot of BS out there, and IMO, this is a fine example of some of it.


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## poollshark

I may be a noob but I think I've got pretty good math skills. I find it difficult to believe that cert is legit, that would make him a 7th @ 34 years old?? Also at wiki I found this:

" In 1966 Presas began developing his own system which he called "Modern  Arnis" by identifying the basic concepts of the numerous systems he had  learned and merging them."

So if Ron started training in 66' that would mean a 7th in 11 years??

Doubtful.


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## tshadowchaser

If youread his bio  http://www.ronvanclief.com/chinesegoju.html it says notting about him studying ModernArnis when he started Chinesse Gojo  so if that is true then he earned his 7th in just a couple of years.  wow
not saying he did not but I do know he did not say anything in 72 about being a student of MordernArnis when my instructor and he where talking about things


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## Josh Oakley

MJS said:


> Heard back from my teacher.  Unless I get his ok to post everything he said, I wont, however, I'll just say this much.....what we're seeing here is in a nutshell, highly suspect.
> 
> Moral of the story...just because someone is wearing a high rank with a bunch of fancy stripes, just because someone has a ton of pictures hanging in their dojo, of people they've 'trained' with, just because someone has a cert. 'supposedly' signed by a GM, doesnt mean that its legit.  There is alot of BS out there, and IMO, this is a fine example of some of it.



Possibly. Then again, Ron Van Clief has a pretty established career. Maybe he did indeed certify with Remy Presas as a 7th degree black belt. Or maybe it was a "political" ranking. Doesn't really matter to me. The guy was a pioneer for black martial artists, and he's demonstrated his knowledge with action.

I've never agreed with belts. Unless it's for a martial art that does competition, the whole belt system is not really necessary. I'd argue that it's been in many ways a detriment to the martial arts as a whole.


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## MJS

Josh Oakley said:


> Possibly. Then again, Ron Van Clief has a pretty established career. Maybe he did indeed certify with Remy Presas as a 7th degree black belt. Or maybe it was a "political" ranking. Doesn't really matter to me. The guy was a pioneer for black martial artists, and he's demonstrated his knowledge with action.
> 
> I've never agreed with belts. Unless it's for a martial art that does competition, the whole belt system is not really necessary. I'd argue that it's been in many ways a detriment to the martial arts as a whole.


 
Oh, I'm not disputing that he has an established career. Some things that I'd question would be: how many people GM Presas promoted to that degree, the location that both GM Presas and RVC lived, as well as the sig. on the diploma, and the time frame to reach that level.

Personally, I do agree with you on the subject of the belts. IMHO, its the skill that impresses me, not the rank of the person. Some people think that if they flash high rank, fancy diplomas, etc, that it'll make people ohh and ahh. Maybe some, but not me.  

There will always be people out there that'll try to pull one over on unsuspecting people. Fortunately, there are people out there that we can go to, to help seperate the fact from the fiction and possibly shed light on matters such as this.


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## Josh Oakley

Has anyone tried to contact Ron Van Clief? There must be a reason he doesn't post this on his wibsite.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I would try and contact Ron Van Clief and find out his story.

Personally I know of several people that were offered rank by Remy Presas early on when he was in the states. (high rank mind you) You have to understand that he was new and on the seminar tour and trying to build Modern Arnis up here much like he did in the Philippines.  So it would not surprise me if that is what happened.  The Professor also offered rank to other people later on in his career.  In regards to Ron VanClief though if he was not hanging around other Modern Arnis people and going to seminars, camps, hosting them etc. you can imagine how much involvement he had.  That does not mean though that he was not ranked just that it would appear to me that Modern Arnis was not a primary art in his training.


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## Brian R. VanCise

There are also people out there with as high a rank that only a few people know of.  So bottom line is that there are people out there!


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## MJS

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would try and contact Ron Van Clief and find out his story.
> 
> Personally I know of several people that were offered rank by Remy Presas early on when he was in the states. (high rank mind you) You have to understand that he was new and on the seminar tour and trying to build Modern Arnis up here much like he did in the Philippines. So it would not surprise me if that is what happened. The Professor also offered rank to other people later on in his career. In regards to Ron VanClief though if he was not hanging around other Modern Arnis people and going to seminars, camps, hosting them etc. you can imagine how much involvement he had. That does not mean though that he was not ranked just that it would appear to me that Modern Arnis was not a primary art in his training.


 


Brian R. VanCise said:


> There are also people out there with as high a rank that only a few people know of. So bottom line is that there are people out there!


 
Hey Brian,

Yes, that is true.  If however, this wasn't a case of training with the Prof. for a short time and boom....handed a high rank, as I said, things to consider would be the sig. on the diploma shown.  Is that really GM Remys signature?  If its a legit rank, actually earned from lots of training, one would have to ask, did RVC travel to the PI to train with Remy?  Did he live there for an extended period of time?  When GM Remy came to the states, how long did RVC train with him?  

One would think that if some of the 'old timer' Arnis guys, were asked about this, they'd have somewhat of an idea.

Either way, as the old saying goes...let the buyer beware.


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## Josh Oakley

Frankly I'm not interested in this enough to follow it up. In most systems I've seen, and this includes Arnis, high belt ranks are more political than anything else, and being as he's not using it to promote himself, there's no issue of fraud. If there WERE a question of fraud, I would not even touch it, as that's not what this site is about. And I like it that way.

Anyone else want to ask him? Here's the contact info I can find:

6700 SAPPHIRE VILLAGE CONDOS
UNIT 157 DOMINICA BLDG.
ST. THOMAS, USVI 00802

Me, I'm out of this. This is thread is starting to sound like another website out there. If you don't know which one I'm talking about, you're better off.


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## MJS

Josh Oakley said:


> Frankly I'm not interested in this enough to follow it up. In most systems I've seen, and this includes Arnis, high belt ranks are more political than anything else, and being as he's not using it to promote himself, there's no issue of fraud. If there WERE a question of fraud, I would not even touch it, as that's not what this site is about. And I like it that way.
> 
> Anyone else want to ask him? Here's the contact info I can find:
> 
> 6700 SAPPHIRE VILLAGE CONDOS
> UNIT 157 DOMINICA BLDG.
> ST. THOMAS, USVI 00802
> 
> Me, I'm out of this. This is thread is starting to sound like another website out there. If you don't know which one I'm talking about, you're better off.


 
But isn't someone who makes a claim of something that turns out to be false, fraudulent? 

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+fraud&qpvt=definition+of+fraud&FORM=DTPDIA

And you're right...high ranks are political...very political.  And this is why many times, I question things such as this.  Its sad, IMHO, that people try to BS others, instead of putting in hard work, and actually having to **GASP*** earn the rank.  In the end, its those people who choose to do less than moral things, that'll have to answer the questions, not me. 

If RVC wants to claim 15th dan in Arnis, he can knock his socks off.  My teacher earned his rank, I earned mine, and thats all that matters to me.


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## Josh Oakley

Actually, rereading his bio on his website shows he does indeed publicaly claim to have a black belt in Arnis de Mano. 

So for the record I don't think there is fraud happening here. All I'm seeing is speculation. And nobody has tried to contact him. 

Ok, I'm back in. I'm sending him a message via facebook to ask him about it, and to invite him here to comment on it. 

Also for the record, I have no intention of fraud-busting, particularly since I don't believe he's a fraud


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## elder999

I'd just say that it's possible that George Dillman, Wally Jay and Jerry Beasely have similar certificates from the 70's or 80's.


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## Josh Oakley

elder999 said:


> I'd just say that it's possible that George Dillman, Wally Jay and Jerry Beasely have similar certificates from the 70's or 80's.



I'd say it's also possible you're jumping to conclusions.


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## elder999

Josh Oakley said:


> I'd say it's also possible you're jumping to conclusions.


 

I'm not jumping to anything-I'm postulating-that's what saying "_it's possible_" is, and it is, by definition, no sort of *conclusion* at all.......

I might have said more, but there are those who know more and have said more already.


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## Josh Oakley

elder999 said:


> I'm not jumping to anything-I'm postulating-that's what saying "_it's possible_" is, and it is, by definition, without any conclusion at all.......
> 
> I might have said more, but there are those who know more and have said more already.



Fine then, it's an assumptive postulation. Or poisoning the well. Either way, there was a conclusion and it's worked into the framework of the statement.


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## elder999

Josh Oakley said:


> Fine then, it's an assumptive postulation. Or poisoning the well. Either way, *there was a conclusion* and it's worked into the framework of the statement.


 

*That's* jumping to conclusions. *I* was speculating, based on prior knowledge, and what I said is really no different than what Brian posted up thread. 

Of course, it's also possible that Van Clief sensei studied for a long time with Professor Presas....or that it's completely phony. Both of those have been postulated here, or at least hinted at. I was only offering a third possibility-that the rank was given honrarily, as it had been to others. *Conclude* whatever you like-I haven't; I don't know a thing.......:lol:


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## Josh Oakley

MJS said:


> If its a legit rank, actually earned from lots of training, one would have to ask, did RVC travel to the PI to train with Remy?  Did he live there for an extended period of time?



Quote from RVC's Facebook,where the diploma was posted:

"LIVING IN THE PHILIPPINES AND HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO STUDY WITH GRANDMASTER REMY PRESAS, THE FOUNDER OF MODERN ARNIS(THE ART OF THE BLADE, HAND/LEGS AND STICK) HE WAS A BRILLIANT TECHNICIAN AND A GOOD MAN THE PHILIPPINES IN THE EARLY 1979'S WAS A HOT BED OF MARTIAL ARTS ACTIVITY..YOU COULD GO TO LUNETA PARK AND SEE THOUSANDS OF MARTIAL ARTISTS DOING THERE THING..WOW"

Looking at his Facebook, he really likes the caps. Don't know why. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say "1979'S" was a typo, and supposed to mean "1970's". Old guys, I would assume, are permitted a typo or two on Facebook. 

Here is a list of the films he was in that were filmed in the Philippines that he was in:
_Xia Nan Yang (a.k.a. Black Dragon)_ 1974
_Bamboo Trap_ 1975
_Enter Another Dragon_ 1981

According to Wikipedia, he was a Marine from 1959 to 1965. According to Black Belt Magazine, (Aug 1999, Jan 2003) his stations included Okinawa and the Philippines, ending in Vietnam.

Yes, this predates Modern Arnis's conception. However, Remy Presas from what I've gathered, was training in and teaching Escrima (among other things) before 1966. 

Also, he apparently opened a number of Chinese Goju studios in the Philippines. When, I don't know. Regardless, He'd been in and out of the Philippines some time between 15 and 18 years, ostensibly, by time the certificate in question is dated. Yes, this is a short time for a seventh degree. IF that had been when he started training in that period. However, he started training in the '50s. 

Could there have been cross-over?

RCV hasn't contacted me yet, likely because he has a life, and I sent this to him mere hours ago. Or he's sleeping. I found this all in a short time after my college classes. Any of you who were asking these questions could have been doing this research. 

No offense is intended by any of this. But perhaps I'd suggest that research would be more valuable than speculation. Or even postulation.


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## Josh Oakley

elder999 said:


> *That's* jumping to conclusions. *I* was speculating, based on prior knowledge, and what I said is really no different than what Brian posted up thread.
> 
> Of course, it's also possible that Van Clief sensei studied for a long time with Professor Presas....or that it's completely phony. Both of those have been postulated here, or at least hinted at. I was only offering a third possibility-that the rank was given honrarily, as it had been to others. *Conclude* whatever you like-I haven't; I don't know a thing.......:lol:



Fair enough. I withdraw my previous statements.


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## Josh Oakley

Also, the time frame is not unique.

http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html

This guy got sixth degree black belt From Mr. Presas in 1992, roughly 12 years after he begun training under him.


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## Josh Oakley

And with that, I'm going to bed. Shout out to elder999 for being another night owl. Or, perhaps _morning_ owl is more appropriate...:ultracool


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## MJS

Hmm....

Once again, I'm not disputing that RVC is a distinguished martial artist.  Hell, the man had the stones to step into the UFC and fight Royce!  Even though he lost, I still tip my hat to the man, again, for having the balls to do that.  

I'm not disputing that RVC has Arnis training.  I listed the things that I, and my teacher, felt were suspect.  I"m sure GM Remy handed out promotions to people quick.  Its possible some may've skipped a rank, ie: going from 1st to 3rd without hitting 2nd.  Its possible that on his death bed, people took advantage of the man.  Its possible the rank is honorary.  IMO, I could justify, even though in the ideal circumstances, the person should wait a decent amount of time between rank, promoting a student who trains with you on a very regular basis, follows you around on your seminar tour, etc., a quicker promotion.  If someone were to only train with GM Remy once or twice a year, well, no, IMHO, that person is not worthy of a black belt rank, let alone a high rank.  

So, in closing, as I said before, in the end, its the person claiming a rank, that'll have to back it up and answer the questions.  Let the buyer beware.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MJS said:


> Hey Brian,
> 
> Yes, that is true. If however, this wasn't a case of training with the Prof. for a short time and boom....handed a high rank, as I said, things to consider would be the sig. on the diploma shown. Is that really GM Remys signature? If its a legit rank, actually earned from lots of training, one would have to ask, did RVC travel to the PI to train with Remy? Did he live there for an extended period of time? When GM Remy came to the states, how long did RVC train with him?
> 
> One would think that if some of the 'old timer' Arnis guys, were asked about this, they'd have somewhat of an idea.
> 
> Either way, as the old saying goes...let the buyer beware.


 
Absolutely Mike!

You see Mike I actually think it is legit but that he really did not train a lot with The Professor. Elder999 made a point about Dillman and Wally Jay Sr. and throw in Wally Jay Jr. in that they probably have high grade certificates too. (pure speculation but probably accurate) However, that does not mean that they were pioneers or senior students in Modern Arnis. Look at who he was with at the end for that! Lack of involvement shows the true colors to the situation but..... *not always*. There are other people out there with as high a rank as anybody that simply do not put it out there in the *public light*. Like I said earlier I know personally several people who were offered very high rank when there skill sets were noted and The Professor was seeking people to bring him in for seminars or to further their training. Fortunately the people I know declined because they felt they did not earn it and did not therefore want it. This is absolutely nothing against The Professor because he was a *wonderful man*, great martial practitioner and a *one of a kind person* whom I will always respect and look up to for what he did for me personally and others. However, he did also have a business to run and family to feed.  Which is always the juxtaposition of running a martial system or school as your primary source of income. Compromises will always be made irregardless of who you are!  It is certainly a challenging career and also a rewarding one. I know several professional martial practitioners who are in the position who offer a service that is far beyond what someone who does it on the side can do. Yet, it still is a tough business as business usually is!


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## Josh Oakley

Looks like he send me a friend request on facebook!


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## jks9199

Moderator Note:

Thread moved to Modern Arnis section as being more appropriate and more likely to generate discussion.


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## Guro Harold

Modern Arnis was owned by GM Presas and he had an exclusive right to rank whomever he felt like for whatever reasons he deemed necessary at the time, like it or not.

I agree with Josh that Mr. Ron Van Clief did not make any political or financial gains over years because of this and most teachers don't make a killing living off of strictly teaching Modern Arnis anyway. LOL


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## Guro Harold

Carol said:


> That doesn't make sense. Datu Tim Hartman was Professor Presas' highest ranked American student in Modern Arnis when the Professor passed away in 2001. He might well be a tremendous martial artist but A 7th degree by 1977 doesn't seem right.


 
Hmmm, I believe Datu Tim claim was to be the highest ranked US Black Belt who actually consistently tested in front of the Professor if I recall from this forum.

I could be wrong though.


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## Dieter

Juat a few comments to what I have read in this thread:

1) GM Remy started to train FMA around 1943.
2) He himself claimed the birth year of Modern Arnis 1957, even thugh it was not called Modern Arnis that time.
3) GM Remy left the Philippines in 1975 and, as far as I know, did not go back until the end of martial law in 1986. And then only for short visits.
4) there is no "place" written in the certificate, where the rank was awarded.


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## Guro Harold

Dieter said:


> Juat a few comments to what I have read in this thread:
> 
> 1) GM Remy started to train FMA around 1943.
> 2) He himself claimed the birth year of Modern Arnis 1957, even thugh it was not called Modern Arnis that time.
> 3) GM Remy left the Philippines in 1975 and, as far as I know, did not go back until the end of martial law in 1986. And then only for short visits.
> 4) there is no "place" written in the certificate, where the rank was awarded.



Hi Dieter,

I can see point #3's relevancy but not totally #4 because this would mean that GM Presas never omitted this info, which is kind of hard to prove.


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## Dan Anderson

Carol said:


> That doesn't make sense.  Datu Tim Hartman was Professor Presas' highest ranked American student in Modern Arnis when the Professor passed away in 2001.


Hi Carol,

Not quite right.  I was ranked 6th back in 1992 (and Tim in 2000) and Rich Parsons teacher was ranked a 7th.

Dan Anderson


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## Dan Anderson

Josh Oakley said:


> Also, the time frame is not unique.
> 
> http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html
> 
> This guy got sixth degree black belt From Mr. Presas in 1992, roughly 12 years after he begun training under him.


Josh,

"This guy" had a good number of years of training prior to meeting GM Remy and had hands on training with him as well.

Dan "this guy" Anderson


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## DragonMind

Carol said:


> Datu Tim Hartman was Professor Presas' highest ranked American student in Modern Arnis when the Professor passed away in 2001.


Not quite accurate either but your other point is well taken.


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## Guro Harold

DragonMind said:


> Not quite accurate either but your other point is well taken.


Please share which part is not quite accurate? Otherwise your post is not quite complete. 

Sorry DragonMind but without the hearing your insight to the inaccuracy, the members of the forum won't have a clue as to what you are referring.

Respectfully,

Guro Harold


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## MJS

I think the point is...a) the main difference between RVC and a good many others, is the hands-on time spent.  I've talked about this before, and for me, I feel that its important.  You need to spend alot of time, training under someone.  No, I dont consider once or twice a year enough, nor do I feel that just because the teacher has lots of experience and supposedly can tell if the person is qualified for said rank, is enough to rank someone.  Sorry, ya gotta put in the time WITH A TEACHER!  B) Those that are 6th, 7th etc, are probably not only limited in quantity, but again, they spent time with the man.


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## Morgan

tshadowchaser said:


> found this on face book. Anyone here ever train with him in arnis . Im sure there are some here that might have studied under him at one time in his own style/system.
> http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/...et=a.1085588666930.2015714.1442810908&theater
> 
> I met him a few times but never heard of the above before


 
Hello MJS,

Several people that I've talked to and who saw the certificate said it's the authentic thing, from Professor Remy Presas.  One of my contacts has the very same certificate and dating back to the late 1970s'.  GM Van Clief was an action movie performer as well as a trained martial artist.  He trained under a number of prominent American Teachers.
He met and trained with Professor Presas in the Philippines.  GM Van Clief was is the real deal in the arts and you needn't worry about his credibility.

BTW, did you ever call or go over to Ny and train with GM Tom Bolden?  I know a number
of people have not wanted to endorse GM Bolden, but after seeing his "World of Modern
Arnis" movie, I'm surprised that more people in your general area haven't gotten over to Poughkeepsie to train with him.

Morgan


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## Morgan

MJS said:


> I think the point is...a) the main difference between RVC and a good many others, is the hands-on time spent. I've talked about this before, and for me, I feel that its important. You need to spend alot of time, training under someone. No, I dont consider once or twice a year enough, nor do I feel that just because the teacher has lots of experience and supposedly can tell if the person is qualified for said rank, is enough to rank someone. Sorry, ya gotta put in the time WITH A TEACHER! B) Those that are 6th, 7th etc, are probably not only limited in quantity, but again, they spent time with the man.


 
Hello MJS,

Your points about training time are quite good and generally true.  Be careful when speaking of people training once a twice a year with an instructor because a good number of Modern Arnis people got their ranks and certificates from Professor via the 
seminar method, training with him once or twice a year.

I will also point out that a number of Masters and Grand Masters believe that they can and should allow for cross-ranking within a art for a "student' who is very well qualified in another art.  As the leaders/head instructors/ chief instructors of a particular art that is their privilege/right to do.  Like it or not, disagree or not, as the head of a system these kinds of decisions are strictly their decisions to make.

Morgan


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## MJS

Morgan said:


> Hello MJS,
> 
> Your points about training time are quite good and generally true. Be careful when speaking of people training once a twice a year with an instructor because a good number of Modern Arnis people got their ranks and certificates from Professor via the
> seminar method, training with him once or twice a year.


 
Hi Morgan,

Question.  Going on what you said, those people that you mention...was the Prof the only person they were training with, or did they have another teacher to train with, when they weren't attending seminars?  Again, theres a huge difference between training with someone a time or two a year, training with someone a time or two a year in addition to having a teacher they train with on a regular basis, and following someone around on their seminar tour, etc.



> I will also point out that a number of Masters and Grand Masters believe that they can and should allow for cross-ranking within a art for a "student' who is very well qualified in another art. As the leaders/head instructors/ chief instructors of a particular art that is their privilege/right to do. Like it or not, disagree or not, as the head of a system these kinds of decisions are strictly their decisions to make.
> 
> Morgan


 
And again, as I said, people are free to do as they wish.  In the end, its those people that'll have to answer the questions, or not.  But, nobody can dispute the fact that it devalues the art, when people play games.  Personally speaking, I would NEVER accept an honorary award.  I want to earn it myself, thru hard work!  And thats how I've got all my rankings, thru hard work.  No short cuts.  Why would someone, and we all know how honest everyone is...LMFAO...accept a rank, and put that in their martial arts bio.  Imagine someone walking into a dojo, seeing a 7th dan Arnis cert.  They're going to think, unless the inst. of that school is honest, that the teacher is really ranked at 7th, when in fact, they've probably had a handful of Modern Arnis classes.


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## Josh Oakley

Dan Anderson said:


> Josh,
> 
> "This guy" had a good number of years of training prior to meeting GM Remy and had hands on training with him as well.
> 
> Dan "this guy" Anderson



I busted out laughing when I saw this! I am amazed at just how many people are on this website.


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## Morgan

MJS said:


> Hi Morgan,
> 
> Question. Going on what you said, those people that you mention...was the Prof the only person they were training with, or did they have another teacher to train with, when they weren't attending seminars? Again, theres a huge difference between training with someone a time or two a year, training with someone a time or two a year in addition to having a teacher they train with on a regular basis, and following someone around on their seminar tour, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> And again, as I said, people are free to do as they wish. In the end, its those people that'll have to answer the questions, or not. But, nobody can dispute the fact that it devalues the art, when people play games. Personally speaking, I would NEVER accept an honorary award. I want to earn it myself, thru hard work! And thats how I've got all my rankings, thru hard work. No short cuts. Why would someone, and we all know how honest everyone is...LMFAO...accept a rank, and put that in their martial arts bio. Imagine someone walking into a dojo, seeing a 7th dan Arnis cert. They're going to think, unless the inst. of that school is honest, that the teacher is really ranked at 7th, when in fact, they've probably had a handful of Modern Arnis classes.


 
Hi MJS, 

I simply took you at your word.  There are and have been a number of people on this forum who claim the late Professor as their MODERN ARNIS TEACHER.  How else am I or anyone else suppose to read that kind of statement?  You at least claim to have a person other than Professor as your Modern Arnis teacher, although you did train under Professor as well.  BTW, if you have a Modern Arnis rank certificate from Professor, is your full-time (for the lack of a better term) teacher listed on it and/or did he sign your IMAF certificate?

Quite to the contrary, the awarding of a certificate to someone by the system Grand Master does not necessarily devalue the art/system.  Does anyone KNOW WHY Professor Presas awarded (in this particular case) GM Van Clief the 7th degree certificate?  There are numerous reasons for that award and given that it done so long ago and in the Philippines it might be highly informative to have the answer(s) to the question that I posed.

I can't dispute a personal conviction and won't try!  OTOH, what if a very good friend
wanted to recognize you and your overall martial arts skills, would you turn that award down?  Why?  You most certinly have earned some ranks and honors prior to that award so what is wrong with showing respect for a friend and his art as well, particularly if he
trained you for hours on end over a number of weeks to months before the offer was made.  As one of my contacts related to me, Professor Presass was a technical advisor
to a number of film projects in the Philippines before 1975. It is highly likely that GM Van Clief had to work very hard learning Arnis so that he could perform credibily in a movie role.  It was very likely not 'a stroll in the park' as he prepared for these roles.  

There is also the matter of his being stationed in the Philippines as a US Marine, prior to beging his acting career.   Could he have already been involved in arnis training under Professor or some other teacher during his Marine years?  I don't have that answer, do you?

Do you know if GM Van Clief, actively claimed his Modern Arnis ranking, during his years as a martial arts teacher?  Did he portray himself as one of Professor's highest ranking people during his active martial arts career?  If so, when, where and how?  I'm asking because it seems to me that there is more than just a little hint of anger and doubt towards Mr. Van Clief, in your posts.  

Do we really FACTUALLY KNOW that GM Van Clief had only a handful of Arnis lessons?  Are you saying that Professor Presas was so careless and uncaring with regard to the art that he created and named that he would give out rank certificates, willy-nilly?  Hmmmm... then what does that say abouit your IMAF ranks given in the mid to late 1990's?  Your point about "devaluation" could be prophetic and accurate.

Morgan


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## MJS

Morgan said:


> Hi MJS,
> 
> I simply took you at your word. There are and have been a number of people on this forum who claim the late Professor as their MODERN ARNIS TEACHER. How else am I or anyone else suppose to read that kind of statement?


 
Hmm....did I say otherwise or is that they way YOU are reading my posts?  Ahh..he beauty of the 'net.  The odds of misunderstandings, due to having to read, vs. actually hearing whats said, are high.  



> You at least claim to have a person other than Professor as your Modern Arnis teacher, although you did train under Professor as well.


 
I attneded a handful of seminars with GM Presas, but I do not claim to be a personal student of his.  Yes, I have other Arnis teachers.  Due to personal reasons on his part, one of them has stepped down from active teaching at the time.  However, I still maintain a close friendship with him.  My other teacher, MoTT Brian Zawilinski, I train with on a regular basis.  



> BTW, if you have a Modern Arnis rank certificate from Professor, is your full-time (for the lack of a better term) teacher listed on it and/or did he sign your IMAF certificate?


 
I have not tested at any time, under GM Presas.  His name and and picture are on the IMAF, Inc diplomas, however, my teachers sigs. are on my diplomas.  





> Quite to the contrary, the awarding of a certificate to someone by the system Grand Master does not necessarily devalue the art/system. Does anyone KNOW WHY Professor Presas awarded (in this particular case) GM Van Clief the 7th degree certificate? There are numerous reasons for that award and given that it done so long ago and in the Philippines it might be highly informative to have the answer(s) to the question that I posed.


 
OTOH, does anyone know if the cert. is legit?  Are we sure the sig. of GM Presas thats on that dip. is really his?  Do we know a list of all of the people that GM Presas gave a 6th or 7th dan to?  What devalues the art, is if someone is given a cert. stating a specific rank, and if said person uses that for ill purposes.  



> I can't dispute a personal conviction and won't try! OTOH, what if a very good friend
> wanted to recognize you and your overall martial arts skills, would you turn that award down? Why? You most certinly have earned some ranks and honors prior to that award so what is wrong with showing respect for a friend and his art as well, particularly if he
> trained you for hours on end over a number of weeks to months before the offer was made. As one of my contacts related to me, Professor Presass was a technical advisor
> to a number of film projects in the Philippines before 1975. It is highly likely that GM Van Clief had to work very hard learning Arnis so that he could perform credibily in a movie role. It was very likely not 'a stroll in the park' as he prepared for these roles.


 
Why should I accept an award in an art that I didn't train in?  LOL!  That would be like me getting a dip. stating that I'm a 3rd dan in TKD.  I dont train in TKD...never have, probably never will, but if I did, I'd want to earn it, not have it handed to me.  If someone chooses to take the easy route, thats on them.  All of my ranks, both in Kenpo and Arnis, were earned, with hard work, not handed to me.   That said, your assumption of what I've 'earned' is incorrect sir.  As for the rest of your post...proof please. 



> There is also the matter of his being stationed in the Philippines as a US Marine, prior to beging his acting career. Could he have already been involved in arnis training under Professor or some other teacher during his Marine years? I don't have that answer, do you?


 
Umm..welll duh, if I had the answers, we wouldnt be having this chat now, would we?   IIRC, a number of pages back, I posted some things to consider, one of them being where everyone in question lived, for how long, etc.  I assume you read all that or did this thread just 'catch' your eye and seeing that you havent posted here in a while, felt the need to comment? 



> Do you know if GM Van Clief, actively claimed his Modern Arnis ranking, during his years as a martial arts teacher? Did he portray himself as one of Professor's highest ranking people during his active martial arts career? If so, when, where and how? I'm asking because it seems to me that there is more than just a little hint of anger and doubt towards Mr. Van Clief, in your posts.


 
Again, the beauty of not being able to really hear what someone is saying, vs. having to write it.  The above is moot, as a) I have no idea and b) isn't that what we're all talking about here?  Of course, if you can add any input to what you just asked me, feel free to post it.   As I said, but you may've missed, in the end, its the person making the claims, that'll have to backup and answer...or not...the questions that're posed to them. 



> Do we really FACTUALLY KNOW that GM Van Clief had only a handful of Arnis lessons? Are you saying that Professor Presas was so careless and uncaring with regard to the art that he created and named that he would give out rank certificates, willy-nilly? Hmmmm... then what does that say abouit your IMAF ranks given in the mid to late 1990's? Your point about "devaluation" could be prophetic and accurate.
> 
> Morgan


 
Umm...again, isnt that the topic of this thread?  To hopefully find out some answers to the question that was originally asked?  Interesting how you seem to be twisting my words.  As for the IMAF ranks that you mention....you're not ax grinding here, are ya?  

In closing I'll say this.  If you're here to actually provide something useful, then feel free to post.  But if you're here to troll, well, I'd hate to see ya get the boot from here.


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## Morgan

MJS said:


> Hmm....did I say otherwise or is that they way YOU are reading my posts? Ahh..he beauty of the 'net. The odds of misunderstandings, due to having to read, vs. actually hearing whats said, are high.
> 
> 
> 
> I attneded a handful of seminars with GM Presas, but I do not claim to be a personal student of his. Yes, I have other Arnis teachers. Due to personal reasons on his part, one of them has stepped down from active teaching at the time. However, I still maintain a close friendship with him. My other teacher, MoTT Brian Zawilinski, I train with on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not tested at any time, under GM Presas. His name and and picture are on the IMAF, Inc diplomas, however, my teachers sigs. are on my diplomas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, does anyone know if the cert. is legit? Are we sure the sig. of GM Presas thats on that dip. is really his? Do we know a list of all of the people that GM Presas gave a 6th or 7th dan to? What devalues the art, is if someone is given a cert. stating a specific rank, and if said person uses that for ill purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I accept an award in an art that I didn't train in? LOL! That would be like me getting a dip. stating that I'm a 3rd dan in TKD. I dont train in TKD...never have, probably never will, but if I did, I'd want to earn it, not have it handed to me. If someone chooses to take the easy route, thats on them. All of my ranks, both in Kenpo and Arnis, were earned, with hard work, not handed to me.  That said, your assumption of what I've 'earned' is incorrect sir. As for the rest of your post...proof please.
> 
> 
> 
> Umm..welll duh, if I had the answers, we wouldnt be having this chat now, would we?  IIRC, a number of pages back, I posted some things to consider, one of them being where everyone in question lived, for how long, etc. I assume you read all that or did this thread just 'catch' your eye and seeing that you havent posted here in a while, felt the need to comment?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the beauty of not being able to really hear what someone is saying, vs. having to write it. The above is moot, as a) I have no idea and b) isn't that what we're all talking about here? Of course, if you can add any input to what you just asked me, feel free to post it.  As I said, but you may've missed, in the end, its the person making the claims, that'll have to backup and answer...or not...the questions that're posed to them.
> 
> 
> 
> Umm...again, isnt that the topic of this thread? To hopefully find out some answers to the question that was originally asked? Interesting how you seem to be twisting my words. As for the IMAF ranks that you mention....you're not ax grinding here, are ya?
> 
> In closing I'll say this. If you're here to actually provide something useful, then feel free to post. But if you're here to troll, well, I'd hate to see ya get the boot from here.


 
Difference of opinions happen.  I'm reading your comments and perhaps I'm seeing more in them than you thought that you were putting there.  OK, that happens.  I believe that I've made some useful comments and observations, plus I believe that I followed
some of your comments and asked questions about why you made them.  Let's just 
agree to disagree on this thread.

The certificate awarded to GM Van Clief is legitimate in the opinion of serveral people that I talked with.  One of them has 3 of the very same certificates from the late Professor.  The signature is Professor's in his opinion.  In my mind that verifies the authinticity issue.  

You opened other themes within the thread, I replied and raised my own questions.  
Did you answer the questions that I asked of you in my last post?  NO!  Are you going 
to answer, I doubt it.  Am I bothered by that, absolutely not.  So we are at an impass.  Therefore all we can do is agree to disagree.  I'm ok with that outcome.

I deliberately did not comment on any other posts that you posted on another thread.
Not because I was in disagreement with you, but felt that my comments here were enough.

Morgan


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## MJS

Morgan said:


> Difference of opinions happen. I'm reading your comments and perhaps I'm seeing more in them than you thought that you were putting there. OK, that happens. I believe that I've made some useful comments and observations, plus I believe that I followed
> some of your comments and asked questions about why you made them. Let's just
> agree to disagree on this thread.


 
Hmm...so you dont post on here in almost a year, you happen to 'stumble' across this thread, stir the pot, and then say we should agree to disagree?  



> The certificate awarded to GM Van Clief is legitimate in the opinion of serveral people that I talked with. One of them has 3 of the very same certificates from the late Professor. The signature is Professor's in his opinion. In my mind that verifies the authinticity issue.


 
And in the opinion of someone that I've spoken with, its not his sig...in his opinion.   In my mind, that raises some curiosity.  



> You opened other themes within the thread, I replied and raised my own questions.
> Did you answer the questions that I asked of you in my last post? NO! Are you going
> to answer, I doubt it. Am I bothered by that, absolutely not. So we are at an impass. Therefore all we can do is agree to disagree. I'm ok with that outcome.


 
You can read right?  I believe I did answer all of your questions, asked of me.  Funny though...how YOU are turning this thread into something about me, when in fact, its about RVC.  If you feel that I havent answered a question about myself, feel free to PM me.  Again, this thread is about RVC, not me, though thats how you're trying to twist it.  




> I deliberately did not comment on any other posts that you posted on another thread.
> Not because I was in disagreement with you, but felt that my comments here were enough.
> 
> Morgan


 
Umm...ok.


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## jks9199

Let's keep to the topic, folks, and it's about this particular certificate, not the qualifications of any member.


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## Mark Lynn

Dean Stockwell trained with the Professor over in the Philippines for the movie "The Pacific Connection"/"The Stick Fighter" .  OK the Professor awarded him a Lakan Dalawa when Mr. Stockwell went back to the states after the movie was over.

It took me 7 years to get 1st black under my karate instructor, 8 years for 2nd black.  So am I to assume that because he didn't take as long as I did that he isn't a 2nd black?  GM Remy worked with him and said you are a Lakan Dalawa.  Now if he gave a movie star whom he worked with (with no prior martial arts experience) a 2nd black, it's not hard for me to believe he gave a seasoned martial artist a 7th after training him.

It would be one thing if Mr. Van Cliff was promoting himself as the successor in Modern Arnis, that all of the sudden he comes out of the woodwork and says I'm king because of this certificate I got from Remy back when I was trained secretly in Modern Arnis while filming a movie that nobody has seen.

It is what it is.  I do find it real hard to believe with the internet out here today, that someone would post something that is blatantly false (with the qualifications and reputation that Mr. Van Cliff has), what is in it for him?  He is well known for his other martial arts not for Modern Arnis.  I personally think it is legit, do I think he knows as much about arnis as the other lower ranked students of Modern Arnis No.  Should I care?


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Happy Easter everyone!

Between Easter and getting ready for my trip to the PI in two days I don't have much time for this thread.



Dan Anderson said:


> Hi Carol,
> 
> Not quite right.  I was ranked 6th back in 1992 (and Tim in 2000) and Rich Parsons teacher was ranked a 7th.
> 
> Dan Anderson



*TESTED* is the key word in my statement. For the record it's not my claim as much as quoting Remy what he said during my promotion. What *Remy* said is that it was the highest test in over 17 years.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Is the diploma real? Not sure. It does look a little off, but to be sure I would need to see the diploma in person. At the end of the day does it really matter? RVC to my knowledge isn't making any claims of leadership in MA. If it's real great! if it's fake then bad on him. The way I look at it is that the belt doesn't make us, we make the belt.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I don't see why everyone bothers arguing with Morgan? For those whom haven't figured it out yet, he is a former banned member Jerome Barber. 

Happy Easter!


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## Guro Harold

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> For the record it's not my claim


Hi Tim,

The word claim is not negative within itself. And it did accurately depict what was stated from my recollection of Forum content, that it is your claim (which appears to be backed by witnesses) that GM Presas stated that you were the highest ranked black belt who had continuously tested for rank.


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## Guro Harold

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I don't see why everyone bothers arguing with Morgan? For those whom haven't figured it out yet, he is a former banned member Jerome Barber.
> 
> Happy Easter!


OMG, does anyone else on this forum really care about WNY politics that occurred 30 freakin years ago?

In this time, the Soviet Union collapsed, the US has been involved in several military involvements, the Arab world is drastically changing, Bob got married, and the US elected our first African American President.

So again, in view of all of those things above, does this trifling junk really matter?

It don't to me.


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## Bob Hubbard

Regarding the 'claim':



> *July 2000 **Camp                 Chronicles **by Lisa McManus*
> ...
> Sunday was an early morning as the Black Belts                  finished taping counter to counter and trapping drills. Gaby Roloff                  was given the honor of conducting the test in which 38 people                  participated including 20 testing for Black Belt or higher. Their                  performance and intensity were incredible and energizing. Following                  the test Tim Hartman was promoted to the rank of 6th Degree Black                  Belt making him the highest ranking practitioner in the United                  States.



Regarding the rest, ehh.
Mr. Van Cliff was invited to pop in. If he feels like doing so, he's welcome here.  If not, that's his business. I haven't heard anything bad about the guy, Remy's been dead a decade now, long past where anyone can check with him on the matter, and it happened so long ago that most of the people currently in Modern Arnis weren't around at all then to confirm. I don't believe any of the Datus or Motts were in the art at the time, nor any of the Senior Masters, or whatever other titles are out there.  Correct me if I'm off here.

As to the WNY politics, I agree with Harold...and I appreciate my getting married being listed with other such World Shaking news.


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:


> Regarding the 'claim':
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the rest, ehh.


Right Bob, again the word "claim" does not carry a negative connotation within itself.
And accurate when used to relate information from a third very distant party such as myself.


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:


> and I appreciate my getting married being listed with other such World Shaking news.


It was for all us long standing holdout bachelors. LOL!!!


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## Mark Lynn

Guro Harold said:


> OMG, does anyone else on this forum really care about WNY politics that occurred 30 freakin years ago?
> 
> In this time, the Soviet Union collapsed, the US has been involved in several military involvements, the Arab world is drastically changing, Bob got married, and the US elected our first African American President.
> 
> So again, in view of all of those things above, does this trifling junk really matter?
> 
> It don't to me.



:rofl:

Could not have said it better myself

Way to keep things in perspective Harold.

Mark


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## Archangel M

IMO rank in the FMA in general and Modern Arnis in particular is all but worthless in regards to what someone knows or how well they know it. Certificates seem to have been thrown around so carelessly that you may as well paper your walls with them. 

The proof is in the person, not in a piece of paper so don't even worry about it.

Caveat: I should add that a cert as proof that the person has SOME training in the art in question is important. But when it comes to who outranks who, who is better than who and who daddy loved best, fuggedaboutit.


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