# Why do Japanese arts use the Japanese language?



## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

I realize the answer to my question is quite obvious, only it isn't.  I mean, obviously, Japanese arts are Japanese, is why they use the Japanese language.

_However,_ one thing I've noticed across this forum and others, is that only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.  All of the other arts are usually translated to English.  What's even more strange, is the arts which influenced Japanese arts (Kung Fu), and arts inspired by Japanese arts (Taekwondo and BJJ), do *not* do this with their native language.

We use a small amount of Korean in my TKD school, but 99% of the time we speak English when we're discussing techniques.  Front kick, side kick, reverse punch, high block, sweep.  All of these words are in English.  Similarly, whenever I see someone discussing Kung Fu strategies on here, or I watch videos of BJJ techniques, the concepts and techniques are all spoken in English, instead of Chinese or Portugese.

And yet, more often than not, if someone comes into a conversation with their Karate or Judo background, they'll say something like "if your opponent has good kisame kicks, and has a fast right gyaku tsuki, you can use kiba dachi almost kokutsu dachi, and then gedan barai."  They say this as if it's supposed to mean anything to someone taking Taekwondo.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2019)

Wing Chun uses a lot of Cantonese terminology in its descriptions


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wing Chun uses a lot of Cantonese terminology in its descriptions



While that may be true, any time I've seen someone discussing Wing Chun, they use English terms (or the video is shot entirely in Cantonese and intended for people who speak Cantonese).


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## jobo (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I realize the answer to my question is quite obvious, only it isn't.  I mean, obviously, Japanese arts are Japanese, is why they use the Japanese language.
> 
> _However,_ one thing I've noticed across this forum and others, is that only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.  All of the other arts are usually translated to English.  What's even more strange, is the arts which influenced Japanese arts (Kung Fu), and arts inspired by Japanese arts (Taekwondo and BJJ), do *not* do this with their native language.
> 
> ...


I suspect at least part of it is being elitist or pretentious, . but to a large part modern English is not a single origin language, rather an amalgamation of world languages in short if the foreigners have a succinct word for something and English translation long phrase for the translation  then it tends to adopted the word, .. it's so much easier to say bungalow, than single storey house. 

if it takes 6 words to describe what ever kick your refering to, thamen using the Japanese word is sensible..
.though I can see no good reason for counting in Japanese


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> I suspect at least part of it is being elitist or pretentious, . but to a large part modern English is not a single origin language, rather an amalgamation of world languages in short if the foreigners have a succinct word for something and English translation long phrase for the translation  then it tends to adopted the word, .. it's so much easier to say bungalow, than single storey house.
> 
> if it takes 6 words to describe what ever kick your refering to, thamen using the Japanese word is sensible..
> .though I can see no good reason for counting in Japanese



Well, I understand why it's used within the school.  That makes sense.  I was more referring to people who go into discussions with people from other martial arts backgrounds, and don't filter their discussion for the more generalized audience.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> While that may be true, any time I've seen someone discussing Wing Chun, they use English terms (or the video is shot entirely in Cantonese and intended for people who speak Cantonese).



You have not been around a lot of Wing Chun folk then, talk to them about any of the forms; first the names used will be Cantonese (Siu Nin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Ji, Muk Yan Jong.) and every single movement in each of the forms is only referred to in the Cantonese. 

Seung Guan Sau
Seung Tan Sau
Lop Sau
Sam Pai Fut or Praying Thrice to the Buddha (Slow) Section:
Tan Sau, Huen Sau, Wu Sa
Fook Sau, Tan Sau, Huen Sau, Wu Sau (Repeat 3x)
Pak Sau, Jek Cheung

And I am talking about Native English speakers


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## jobo (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Well, I understand why it's used within the school.  That makes sense.  I was more referring to people who go into discussions with people from other martial arts backgrounds, and don't filter their discussion for the more generalized audience.


because once your using a foreign word as part of your everyday language,  your brain no longer considers it as foreign,  it's just english like all the other foreign  words you use day in and day out.

that people generally dont understand it, only matters if you care they dont understand. I consciously  change my lectern on here for the fact I'm talking to a mostly american clientele , just as I change my phraseology  and pronounce my vowls differently if I go to London, as they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about if I talked in broard manchester. when iv3 been traveling, I know I'm home, when I can longer detect someone accent, they all talk like me

if you want to communicate effectively then you need to be conscious of it. if you dont care and you only want to communicate with other of a like mind then just carry on


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## geezer (Oct 7, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> You have not been around a lot of Wing Chun folk then, talk to them about any of the forms; first the names used will be Cantonese (Siu Nin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Ji, Muk Yan Jong.) and every single movement in each of the forms is only referred to in the Cantonese...



This is generally true, although since Cantonese is a tonal language and said to be even more difficult to learn than Mandarin, the way we native English speakers pronounce all these Cantonese terms is _usually unintelligible _to native Cantonese speakers , and even to other people from Wing Chun branches who may use and pronounce the terms differently! 

Maybe that's why we tend to translate the terms to English equivalents when using a public forum, or when talking to anybody outside our lineage.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2019)

geezer said:


> This is generally true, although since Cantonese is a tonal language and said to be even more difficult to learn than Mandarin, the way we native English speakers pronounce all these Cantonese terms is _usually unintelligible _to native Cantonese speakers , and even to other people from Wing Chun branches who may use and pronounce the terms differently!
> 
> Maybe that's why we tend to translate the terms to English equivalents when using a public forum, or when talking to anybody outside our lineage.



So.....Nǐ jiào wǒ piànzi ma (你叫我騙子嗎)......if that's the case....then them there are fightin' words........its Lop Sau at 20 paces. 

Yes I know their pronunciation is terrible, and I don't speak Cantonese, although at one time I was learning it. However it never seemed to stop any Wing Chun person I knew


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> because once your using a foreign word as part of your everyday language,  your brain no longer considers it as foreign,  it's just english like all the other foreign  words you use day in and day out.
> 
> that people generally dont understand it, only matters if you care they dont understand. I consciously  change my lectern on here for the fact I'm talking to a mostly american clientele , just as I change my phraseology  and pronounce my vowls differently if I go to London, as they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about if I talked in broard manchester. when iv3 been traveling, I know I'm home, when I can longer detect someone accent, they all talk like me
> 
> if you want to communicate effectively then you need to be conscious of it. if you dont care and you only want to communicate with other of a like mind then just carry on



Are you telling me this grammar is intentional?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2019)

Every capoeira school in which I trained uses a lot of Portuguese terminology, both for the techniques, and in discussing strategy and spirit in the practice.


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## jobo (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Are you telling me this grammar is intentional?


You do know that Grammer has a capital G . I know American don't do irony, but that's ironic if your pointing out issues with someone else's Grammer


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> You do know that Grammer has a capital G . I know American don't do irony, but that's ironic if your pointing out issues with someone else's Grammer



I did not know that.  So I looked it up.  None of the results I found knew that either.  I think you just made that up to have an "ah ha" moment, but you are incorrect.


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## pdg (Oct 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> You do know that Grammer has a capital G . I know American don't do irony, but that's ironic if your pointing out issues with someone else's Grammer



You are correct, Grammer does have a capital G as it's a proper noun.

However, the set of rules governing a language, i.e. grammar, is not capitalised unless it's starting a sentence and contains no 'e'.


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## pdg (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I did not know that.  So I looked it up.  None of the results I found knew that either.  I think you just made that up to have an "ah ha" moment, but you are incorrect.



He's correct with the word he's using spelled as such.

But the context, meaning and usage of the word he used is wrong.


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## Headhunter (Oct 7, 2019)

What happens if a student goes to Japan to train and doesn't understand a thing about what they're supposed to do because they're saying the Japanese words. Or if they grade in Japan and don't recognise the names of the techniques


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## Mitlov (Oct 7, 2019)

they're two questions here. First, why use Japanese terms that all? Second, why use them when speaking to someone who does not take a Japanese style?

As to the first, this isn't uncommon. We did it all the time in fencing. I would refer to a riposte and a fleche, not a counter-strike and a blitz. fencers all over the world all use the same terminology, and there's some real utility in that. And there's also a level precision to that. "Mawashi Geri" refers specifically to a Japanese karate style roundhouse kick, not other sorts of roundhouse kicks like a Thai kick. "Gedan barai" is a lot more specific than "low block" or "low hammerfist."

As for the second, that can simply be people not thinking it through, or people being a little pretentious. I'm sure it's not always one and not always the other.


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What happens if a student goes to Japan to train and doesn't understand a thing about what they're supposed to do because they're saying the Japanese words. Or if they grade in Japan and don't recognise the names of the techniques



What happens if I go to Korea to train TKD or HKD?  What if somoene goes to China to train Kung Fu, or goes to Brazil to train BJJ?  Those all use English terms for the techniques from what I can see.  (At least, all of those arts have schools where it is common).

This post reminds me of when Oregon was going to allow people to pump their own gas.  People started freaking out over how they're going to smell like gas, or how they'll probably set their cars on fire.  Meanwhile, people in the other 48 states were just rolling their eyes, because we've been pumping our own gas since before we could drive.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 7, 2019)

Because Judo does have a detailed standardized terminology which is used worldwide, it’s often useful for practitioners of other arts where that kind of vocabulary has not been built up. For example, BJJ doesn’t really have standardized terms in English or Portuguese for most throws beyond basics such as hip throw, shoulder throw, double leg. So typically we end up borrowing the Judo terms for throws like Uchi Mata, Harai Goshi, Tai Otoshi, etc. I’ve seen Sambo guys do the same thing, although I don’t know how detailed the Russian terms are. Perhaps they use the Judo terms in order to communicate with a wider audience.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've seen someone discussing Wing Chun, they use English terms ...


Ip men should be Ye Wen instead.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.


The Judo throw "Osoto Gari — Large Outer Reap" is called

- Cut in ACSCA.
- Chop in USSA.

The Chinese term is "Qie".

Which way is better? You either have to force your students to learn a foreign language, or you have to live with the confusion.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Ip men should be Ye Wen instead.



Is that the Cantonese for 葉問?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 7, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Is that the Cantonese for 葉問?


I don't speak Cantonese. I just pronounce 葉問 in Chinese.

One of my UT professor's last name is 葉. He uses Yeh instead. But sometime people use Ye also.

Dr. Raymond T. Yeh


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> What happens if I go to Korea to train TKD or HKD?  What if somoene goes to China to train Kung Fu, or goes to Brazil to train BJJ?  Those all use English terms for the techniques from what I can see.  (At least, all of those arts have schools where it is common).
> 
> This post reminds me of when Oregon was going to allow people to pump their own gas.  People started freaking out over how they're going to smell like gas, or how they'll probably set their cars on fire.  Meanwhile, people in the other 48 states were just rolling their eyes, because we've been pumping our own gas since before we could drive.



If you go to Korea to study Taekwondo, you’d better understand the Korean terms, be really good at watching and copying other students, or attend one of the few dojang that cater to foreign students. 

Kukkiwon testing is also conducted 100% in Korean. When I tested for my 4th dan even my written test was given to me in Korean. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> If you go to Korea to study Taekwondo, you’d better understand the Korean terms, be really good at watching and copying other students, or attend one of the few dojang that cater to foreign students.
> 
> Kukkiwon testing is also conducted 100% in Korean. When I tested for my 4th dan even my written test was given to me in Korean.
> 
> ...



I've seen videos of the Master Instructor course that were done in English.


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## Jaeimseu (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've seen videos of the Master Instructor course that were done in English.



They offer an instructor course for foreigners. I attended back in 2013. Typical events are conducted in Korean. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've seen videos of the Master Instructor course that were done in English.


I like to use the general terms and I don't like to use the style only terms. IMO, it's much easier to understand:

- jab, cross than front hand punch, back hand punch.
- single leg than knee (or leg) seize.
- head lock than neck surrounding.
- ...

So my long fist system does use jab/cross. As long as I start to use it, who cares?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What happens if a student goes to Japan to train and doesn't understand a thing about what they're supposed to do because they're saying the Japanese words. Or if they grade in Japan and don't recognise the names of the techniques


What happens when a student travels to another country where they speak another language, to attend University?  If they don’t speak the language yet, they learn it.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What happens if a student goes to Japan to train and doesn't understand a thing about what they're supposed to do because they're saying the Japanese words. Or if they grade in Japan and don't recognise the names of the techniques


True, but doesn't that happen in the beginning regardless of where you train?


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2019)

We use quite a lot of Korean terminology in class. I never really thought about it a great deal on the forum. I try to use it when appropriate but by no means am I conversant Korean. Our GM speaks pretty good English but still has a strong accent and uses Korean words when the English equivalent does not come to mind. I rather like it because it helps you learn how the words are used in conversation.
It is not a required skill in class or for promotion. I do push our BB's to learn at least the body/strike/stance/kick phrases.

A drill I really enjoy doing is to line up the class and do walking drills up/down the floor changing the Korean command in a random fashion. Really works the noggin.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 7, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> they're two questions here. First, why use Japanese terms that all? Second, why use them when speaking to someone who does not take a Japanese style?
> 
> As to the first, this isn't uncommon. We did it all the time in fencing. I would refer to a riposte and a fleche, not a counter-strike and a blitz. fencers all over the world all use the same terminology, and there's some real utility in that. And there's also a level precision to that. "Mawashi Geri" refers specifically to a Japanese karate style roundhouse kick, not other sorts of roundhouse kicks like a Thai kick. "Gedan barai" is a lot more specific than "low block" or "low hammerfist."
> 
> As for the second, that can simply be people not thinking it through, or people being a little pretentious. I'm sure it's not always one and not always the other.


 
 I agree 100%.  Just to add something to using French in fencing, like using Japanese in karate, or even using English terminology in Japanese baseball:  Some words/concepts are just hard to precisely translate, but also, using the more or less original language helps the activity retain and remind us of its roots, its history and its traditions.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 7, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> Second, why use them when speaking to someone who does not take a Japanese style?


My wife is American. She doesn't like to go with me to my high school reunion because Chinese language is always used in those meeting.

IMO, it's impolite to speak in Chinese when there are American present and every Chinese all speak in English.

When I travel in Europe, I found something very interested.

- some French people pretend they don't speak English even if they do.
- some Italian people pretend they speak English even if they don't.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't speak Cantonese. I just pronounce 葉問 in Chinese.
> 
> One of my UT professor's last name is 葉. He uses Yeh instead. But sometime people use Ye also.
> 
> Dr. Raymond T. Yeh



Had to check with the wife, that is Mandarin,  ye wen. It must be the Cantonese that is Ip Man then.


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## Danny T (Oct 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> You do know that Grammer has a capital G . I know American don't do irony, but that's ironic if your pointing out issues with someone else's Grammer


Now that's comical and incorrect.
Grammer is a name or a place therefore being a proper noun it is capitalized however, it isn't about language. The term grammar is about language.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - some French people pretend they don't speak English even if they do.
> - some Italian people pretend they speak English even if they don't.



found something similar in Beijing
- some Beijingren pretend they don't speak English even if they do.
- some Mongolians pretend they speak English even if they don't.


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## Encho (Oct 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I realize the answer to my question is quite obvious, only it isn't.  I mean, obviously, Japanese arts are Japanese, is why they use the Japanese language.
> 
> _However,_ one thing I've noticed across this forum and others, is that only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.  All of the other arts are usually translated to English.  What's even more strange, is the arts which influenced Japanese arts (Kung Fu), and arts inspired by Japanese arts (Taekwondo and BJJ), do *not* do this with their native language.
> 
> ...


Japanese arts are big on using Japanese termology, mostly because when you learn Japanese martial arts it is taught to some extent in Japanese. In some cases, some teachers even try to adapt Japanese mannerism when teaching, it is in keeping with the Wa 和 or balance of the the school. Japanese arts are very codified, rigid could be another reason why the overlap of using Japanese terms more than other arts. In some cases the Japanese words have a symbolic meaning rather than an actual translation like bird step, giant rock drop, etc.


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## jobo (Oct 8, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Now that's comical and incorrect.
> Grammer is a name or a place therefore being a proper noun it is capitalized however, it isn't about language. The term grammar is about language.





pdg said:


> You are correct, Grammer does have a capital G as it's a proper noun.
> 
> However, the set of rules governing a language, i.e. grammar, is not capitalised unless it's starting a sentence and contains no 'e'.


in the context he used it, ie English Grammer, it's the definite  article  and so should be capitalised. theres only one English Grammer.

the same way mother is not capitalised  unless your talking about your own Mother then it is, as it's now a proper noun


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 8, 2019)

I heard of a school in Northern Virginia that taught TKD using korean terminology.  Most I have seen use english terminology.  My Hapkido GM in Korea used English when teaching american students, and Korean in his off post schools.


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> in the context he used it, ie English Grammer, it's the definite  article  and so should be capitalised. theres only one English Grammer.
> 
> the same way mother is not capitalised  unless your talking about your own Mother then it is, as it's now a proper noun



But grammar, as in the grammatical language rules, isn't spelled with an E, so it's a different word to start with.

Also, that rule of capitalisation doesn't count unless you're using "English Grammar" as a noun or as a title.



Edit: You'll have to clarify which grammar/Grammer you're actually trying to discuss here by the way.


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## W.Bridges (Oct 8, 2019)

lesson to the referee


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## KenpoMaster805 (Oct 8, 2019)

When i was in shotokan we used japanese term like kiba dachi mawashi geri etc and so on even when i took taekwondo we used korean even when we count but when i went to kenpo karate we used english


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## frank raud (Oct 8, 2019)

When I was studying Tae Kwon Do, I was at a satellite school. The only time we would see the head of the school was when we went for belt tests. The thing he was most interested in was our knowledge of Korean terminology. My first art was a Kawaishi-based jiu jitsu system, so we did breakfalls 1-13, hip throw, neck throw, etc. When I switched to judo, the terminology was both Japanese and English, with some terms taken from BJJ, such as "guard", rather than do-osae, or trunk hold as the English translation. I have had the opportunity to train with people from all across Canada, the US, Europe and Australia.With few exceptions, people were able to use both Japanese terminology and English interchangeably.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 8, 2019)

My japanese kenpo didn't use many japanese terms-just the opening, and counting. When I tried isshinryu, I was only there for a couple months but I don't recall noticing a huge amount of japanese. In Kali, a decent number of things are in filipino, and in fencing as already said a lot of the words are french. In both, I'm not actually sure what words I would use for some things in english (ie: fleche), so I'm not sure how I would communicate those without the words on a forum. But to me japanese styles don't do this more than others.

The only exception for japan I can think of would be judo, where everything is the japanese words, but you can very easily find translations, and I think it's more for international communication than anything else.


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## skribs (Oct 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> My japanese kenpo didn't use many japanese terms-just the opening, and counting. When I tried isshinryu, I was only there for a couple months but I don't recall noticing a huge amount of japanese. In Kali, a decent number of things are in philippino, and in fencing as already said a lot of the words are french. In both, I'm not actually sure what words I would use for some things in english (ie: fleche), so I'm not sure how I would communicate those without the words on a forum. But to me japanese styles don't do this more than others.
> 
> The only exception for japan I can think of would be judo, where everything is the japanese words, but you can very easily find translations, and I think it's more for international communication than anything else.



I could be wrong, but I think kenpo is a more contemporary art, so that would make since.

Regarding fencing - I think a lot of fencing terms have become standard terms we understand in English.  Riposte, for example, is defined in Webster, and is used for more than just fencing.  Counter-attack is a longer word.

Many of the Japanese terms I see used are longer than the English word, and not in common use in English.  I understand internal consistency, I was more looking at the people who's posts are half Japanese, half English, when speaking to a crowd that doesn't take Japanese arts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> I could be wrong, but I think kenpo is a more contemporary art, so that would make since.
> 
> Regarding fencing - I think a lot of fencing terms have become standard terms we understand in English.  Riposte, for example, is defined in Webster, and is used for more than just fencing.  Counter-attack is a longer word.
> 
> Many of the Japanese terms I see used are longer than the English word, and not in common use in English.  I understand internal consistency, I was more looking at the people who's posts are half Japanese, half English, when speaking to a crowd that doesn't take Japanese arts.


American kenpo is contemporary. Japanese kenpo is different-almost no relation to its american counterparts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> I could be wrong, but I think kenpo is a more contemporary art, so that would make since.
> 
> Regarding fencing - I think a lot of fencing terms have become standard terms we understand in English.  Riposte, for example, is defined in Webster, and is used for more than just fencing.  Counter-attack is a longer word.
> 
> Many of the Japanese terms I see used are longer than the English word, and not in common use in English.  I understand internal consistency, I was more looking at the people who's posts are half Japanese, half English, when speaking to a crowd that doesn't take Japanese arts.


As for fencing terms being more used, some are but some arent. I dont think most people would know what a fleche is, or a piste. Or allez. Or lamet or pret. En garde you can figure out but thats just because its a cognate. I only know most of those because of fencing.

And it still happens with kali, where almost none of the filipino words are common English words.


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## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2019)

Cognate; learned a new word. Thank you.


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## JR 137 (Oct 9, 2019)

W.Bridges said:


> lesson to the referee


I haven’t seen that one in years. Thanks!


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2019)

We use the Japanese terms for our exercises, kata, and for counting, as well as typical greetings, etc.  Some Isshinryu dojos do as well, some do not.  It's not a big deal either way.  We do it to show respect for the origins of our style.  Same reason we wear a gi, bow, and address each other formally in the dojo.


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## Buka (Oct 9, 2019)

I think there should be a technique in Japanese Karate called Lollapalooza.

Before I get yelled at, I’m a Japanophile at Martial heart and always will be.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2019)

Most Japanese Karate schools may use Japanese in their teaching. But I have never seen a Chinese MA school uses Chinese in their teaching. Why?

My teacher didn't speak English at all. When he taught my class, he used "one and two" and not "一二 (Yi Er)". Even an old Chinese tried to learn some English in order to communicate with his English students.

What's the difference between the Chinese culture and the Japanese culture?​


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 9, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most Japanese Karate schools may use Japanese in their teaching. But I have never seen a Chinese MA school uses Chinese in their teaching. Why?
> 
> My teacher didn't speak English at all. When he taught my class, he used "one and two" and not "一二 (Yi Er)". Even an old Chinese tried to learn some English in order to communicate with his English students.
> 
> What's the difference between the Chinese culture and the Japanese culture?​


My assumption is that chinese people don't want to hear english speaking folks butcher their language. Which I would bet based on languages is more of an issue for the chinese than the japanese.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 9, 2019)

Air traffic controllers world-wide use English.  By using the same language, pilots from all different countries can communicate with any airport.  Whenever an activity is international in scope, with speakers of many languages, they can still communicate with each other, using the _lingua franca_ of that particular activity.  A fencer in France can talk fencing to a Spaniard, an Englishman or a Syrian (if there are any.)  Likewise, if you say _mae geri _to a Shotokan karate practitioner in Spain, Nigeria, Finland or Brazil, they will know you are talking about a front kick.  Aside from kempodisciple's post above, no doubt true, Chinese is damn tough to pronounce if you're not Chinese, and as much as Chinese don't want to hear it, Americans don't want to say it.  Also, not being a kung fu guy, its seems to me that that art is more fragmented with dozens of styles and not as much organization as other martial arts.  This may be a reason for Chinese not being the common tongue of that art, if that is the case.  With no united front during the "marketing" phase of kung fu, various countries may have substituted their own language?


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## skribs (Oct 10, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> Air traffic controllers world-wide use English.  By using the same language, pilots from all different countries can communicate with any airport.  Whenever an activity is international in scope, with speakers of many languages, they can still communicate with each other, using the _lingua franca_ of that particular activity.  A fencer in France can talk fencing to a Spaniard, an Englishman or a Syrian (if there are any.)  Likewise, if you say _mae geri _to a Shotokan karate practitioner in Spain, Nigeria, Finland or Brazil, they will know you are talking about a front kick.  Aside from kempodisciple's post above, no doubt true, Chinese is damn tough to pronounce if you're not Chinese, and as much as Chinese don't want to hear it, Americans don't want to say it.  Also, not being a kung fu guy, its seems to me that that art is more fragmented with dozens of styles and not as much organization as other martial arts.  This may be a reason for Chinese not being the common tongue of that art, if that is the case.  With no united front during the "marketing" phase of kung fu, various countries may have substituted their own language?



That's the point I'm making.  People who train Japanese martial arts seem to think that Japanese is the _lingua franca_ of Martial Arts in general.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 10, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most Japanese Karate schools may use Japanese in their teaching. But I have never seen a Chinese MA school uses Chinese in their teaching. Why?
> 
> My teacher didn't speak English at all. When he taught my class, he used "one and two" and not "一二 (Yi Er)". Even an old Chinese tried to learn some English in order to communicate with his English students.
> 
> What's the difference between the Chinese culture and the Japanese culture?​


Good video.  That there looks like some good old time training.
Re:  Chinese vs. Japanese culture:  A good chunk of Chinese culture found its way over the centuries into Japan who adopted the parts they like, such as Buddhism, Kanji writing system, martial arts...But there are many differences - enough for a book.  Since this is an MA forum, look at the difference between the Chinese kung fu movies and the Japanese Samurai movies, at least the older ones.  There is a big difference in the approaches and the way they are produced.  This may be one small window to peek through.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> I think there should be a technique in Japanese Karate called Lollapalooza.
> 
> Before I get yelled at, I’m a Japanophile at Martial heart and always will be.









But just between you and me....and don't tell anyone.... but I actually agree with you


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## blackknight7891 (Oct 13, 2019)

skribs said:


> I realize the answer to my question is quite obvious, only it isn't.  I mean, obviously, Japanese arts are Japanese, is why they use the Japanese language.
> 
> _However,_ one thing I've noticed across this forum and others, is that only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.  All of the other arts are usually translated to English.  What's even more strange, is the arts which influenced Japanese arts (Kung Fu), and arts inspired by Japanese arts (Taekwondo and BJJ), do *not* do this with their native language.
> 
> ...




So far in my experience, the literal translations from Japanese to English are about as meaningful as the Japanese terminology. their are some simple words that seem to translate like Ken (punch) doesnt just mean to punch. could include an elbow strike\headbutt, but is generally translated to mean punch. because the cultures is so different,  it can be hard to get an accurate translation when you start talking about old martial arts.

I've been shown a number of versions of techniques called "ten chi" translation given as "heaven and earth" once you see the technique you will understand why it got that name, but try to figure out what they want without seeing it... good luck.


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## Danny T (Oct 15, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> As for fencing terms being more used, some are but some arent. I dont think most people would know what a fleche is, or a piste. Or allez. Or lamet or pret. En garde you can figure out but thats just because its a cognate. I only know most of those because of fencing.
> 
> And it still happens with kali, where almost none of the filipino words are common English words.


Don't know much about fencing however:
Fleche is and arrow so I assume it would be a type of thrust or movement for a thrust.
Piste is an alley or trail so maybe the mat that the competition is played on.
Allez is to go or go forth and use as a beginning or to start.
Lamet is a type of cloth so maybe the specific clothing.
Pret has a couple of meanings so context would be needed. Ready, Loan, Willing. It the beginning of a competition it would be En garde, Pret, Allez... or Assume your guard position, Ready, Go or Begin.


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## donald1 (Oct 18, 2019)

I like using Japanese terminology here and there so I can sound like I have an understanding of the language despite not actually knowing how to speak it. Maybe someone will think I'm smart!


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## donald1 (Oct 18, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> My assumption is that chinese people don't want to hear english speaking folks butcher their language. Which I would bet based on languages is more of an issue for the chinese than the japanese.


I'm definitely going to butcher the chinese language... like a fat cow. I'm probably going to think I'm a very fluent speaker despite the looks of disapproval I will no doubt eventually receive.


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## Gweilo (Oct 21, 2019)

I can't remember who wrote it, but using Japanese or Chinese language in persuits that originate from these places is a form or standardisation.  In my day job I am a Horticulturalist,  and discussions about plants, we use a standardised latin name for the plant, that uses the genus and the founder, or the country of origin, Chinesis denotes of Chinese origin, Japonica japanese for example. Most gardeners will use the common name, but in the uk a Buddleja Davidii is a butterfly bush, in France the butterfly bush is a different plant, so we always use the Latin name, so everyone around the globe knows exactly what plant we are discussing,  Imo same thing in MA


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## jobo (Oct 21, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I can't remember who wrote it, but using Japanese or Chinese language in persuits that originate from these places is a form or standardisation.  In my day job I am a Horticulturalist,  and discussions about plants, we use a standardised latin name for the plant, that uses the genus and the founder, or the country of origin, Chinesis denotes of Chinese origin, Japonica japanese for example. Most gardeners will use the common name, but in the uk a Buddleja Davidii is a butterfly bush, in France the butterfly bush is a different plant, so we always use the Latin name, so everyone around the globe knows exactly what plant we are discussing,  Imo same thing in MA


but it wont be ' everyone around the globe' it will only be a very select few who have taken the trouble to learn the latin, generally those who can be considered to be scientific or professionals. or at least exceptionally keen amateurs

i know a good deal of latin for legal concepts, but this is of no use at all for communicating with the vast majority of the population, including the police, who regard you as borderline insane if you quote latin at them


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## Gweilo (Oct 21, 2019)

jobo said:


> but it wont be ' everyone around the globe



I was talking about everyone in Horticulture,  but I now see what I wrote could be read for everyone around the globe, my apologies principle Jobo.


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## Randy Pio (Oct 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> I realize the answer to my question is quite obvious, only it isn't.  I mean, obviously, Japanese arts are Japanese, is why they use the Japanese language.
> 
> _However,_ one thing I've noticed across this forum and others, is that only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.  All of the other arts are usually translated to English.  What's even more strange, is the arts which influenced Japanese arts (Kung Fu), and arts inspired by Japanese arts (Taekwondo and BJJ), do *not* do this with their native language.
> 
> ...



I think it pays homage to your style's ancestry, also regardless of where you travel; you can communicate the style.  One further point, it cleans up descriptions such as the "oblique kick" or "Axe Kick".


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> I realize the answer to my question is quite obvious, only it isn't.  I mean, obviously, Japanese arts are Japanese, is why they use the Japanese language.
> 
> _However,_ one thing I've noticed across this forum and others, is that only the Japanese artists seem to describe everything through the Japanese language.  All of the other arts are usually translated to English.  What's even more strange, is the arts which influenced Japanese arts (Kung Fu), and arts inspired by Japanese arts (Taekwondo and BJJ), do *not* do this with their native language.
> 
> ...


I haven't read the thread yet, so some of this might be repeating others' answers. I think a lot has to do with tight links back to Japanese associations. When a US group (for instance) has tight ties back to Japan, they'll tend to keep using Japanese terms, because it keeps everyone in the art on the same page. And once you know what a term means, the origin is irrelevant. I have to explain my English terms to folks just as often as folks in Aikido have to explain their Japanese terms. The only real advantage of native-language terms is they are probably easier to learn initially.

A good example of that last point is how I refer to techniques. I call a shoulder throw "shoulder throw", because that's the name I learned for it in NGA. But I learned the throw that Captain Kirk used so often as "tomo e nage". I don't know a concise English term for it, so that's the name I use.

NGA was an anomaly from the early days. Though Richard Bowe trained in Japan (and maintained ties there for many years, even after the art was no longer taught publicly there), he used mostly English terminology. In fact, that had been the practice when he was in Chitose. Bowe was an interpreter for the Army, and when he joined the NGA dojo, they (the instructor and students) were keen to learn some new English terms. They had him translate much of the terminology into English, and actually used those terms in the dojo. And we mostly use those same terms (or so the story goes) now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> Well, I understand why it's used within the school.  That makes sense.  I was more referring to people who go into discussions with people from other martial arts backgrounds, and don't filter their discussion for the more generalized audience.


In some cases, they simply don't know another term to use. I sometimes use Japanese terms rather than English ones, because more people will recognize what "kote gaeshi" is than "front wrist throw", the latter being the NGA term, but one I've not heard elsewhere.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

geezer said:


> the way we native English speakers pronounce all these Cantonese terms is _usually unintelligible _to native Cantonese speakers , and even to other people from Wing Chun branches who may use and pronounce the terms differently!


I see this with Japanese terms, as well. I've heard "kote gaeshi" pronounced at least 5 different ways, two of which I didn't recognize until I saw the technique.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What happens if a student goes to Japan to train and doesn't understand a thing about what they're supposed to do because they're saying the Japanese words. Or if they grade in Japan and don't recognise the names of the techniques


Most folks who train in the US under 3rd-generation US teachers wouldn't be able to understand any of that, even if the terms are ostensibly the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> in the context he used it, ie English Grammer, it's the definite  article  and so should be capitalised. theres only one English Grammer.
> 
> the same way mother is not capitalised  unless your talking about your own Mother then it is, as it's now a proper noun


I can find no source to support your assertion that the word "Grammer" is correct in this usage. If you have one, I'd appreciate a link.

To the second point, you've misstated this. It's not proper to use the proper-noun (grammatical term) capitalization for Mother simply when speaking of one's own mother. It's capitalized when used as a proper noun - as a form of address. So both of these are correct:

"My mother went shopping."
"Dear Mother, when are you going shopping?"


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I can find no source to support your assertion that the word "Grammer" is correct in this usage. If you have one, I'd appreciate a link.
> 
> To the second point, you've misstated this. It's not proper to use the proper-noun (grammatical term) capitalization for Mother simply when speaking of one's own mother. It's capitalized when used as a proper noun - as a form of address. So both of these are correct:
> 
> ...


sigh
When do you capitalize words like "mother," "father," "grandmother," and "grandfather" when writing about them? - Everything After Z by Dictionary.com

 so '' My mother went shopping ' is not, but '' Later that day Mother went shopping' is


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> sigh
> When do you capitalize words like "mother," "father," "grandmother," and "grandfather" when writing about them? - Everything After Z by Dictionary.com
> 
> so '' My mother went shopping ' is not, but '' Later that day Mother went shopping' is


Yes, because you're using it as a proper noun. Like I said.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, because you're using it as a proper noun. Like I said.



Ever notice how some aspects of martial arts are like grammar? And some instructors obsess about trivial details of technique almost like MA versions of "grammar police". Other instructors are more concerned about functionality. In other words, can you get the job done?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

geezer said:


> Ever notice how some aspects of martial arts are like grammar? And some instructors obsess about trivial details of technique almost like MA versions of "grammar police". Other instructors are more concerned about functionality. In other words, can you get the job done?


I have. I've had instructors who were more worried about students knowing exactly the right stance (and being able to get into it at exactly the right moment) than in teaching why. I find those who focus on "why" tend to be more function-oriented.

Oddly, I sometimes enjoy the "grammar police" instructors. It can be fun to work on nits, even when it's not necessarily advancing specific skills (other than the ability to exactly replicate that movement).


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, because you're using it as a proper noun. Like I said.


no that's what I said before you took the trouble of contradicting me, this is your usual mo, of changing your mind when faced with over whelming evidence, but pretending you said something else the n first place


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> no that's what I said before you took the trouble of contradicting me, this is your usual mo, of changing your mind when faced with over whelming evidence, but pretending you said something else the n first place


Maybe go back and read your own post. You didn't say that. I can see now that's what you meant, but it's not what you said.

And, of course, you've dropped the whole "Grammer" argument. I'm guessing you realized you were entirely incorrect.


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## JP3 (Oct 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> Though I can see no good reason for counting in Japanese


I can see one good reason.  If you're counting money out to someone who only speaks Japanese, that'd be a good reason. There you go.


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## JP3 (Oct 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> A good example of that last point is how I refer to techniques. I call a shoulder throw "shoulder throw", because that's the name I learned for it in NGA. But I learned the throw that Captain Kirk used so often as "tomo e nage". I don't know a concise English term for it, so that's the name I use.
> ) now.



Japanese: Tomenage  -- English:  Circle Throw

...still reading...


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## JP3 (Oct 26, 2019)

After reading this entire thread, and there's some good thoughts and witticisms in it, I think I agree with Jobo on something. Not so unusual, really. No, I'm not talking about grammar.

Saying "Bungalow" instead of "Single Story House" is where I'm coming from on this.

   I learned the names for the judo throws & techniques in Japanese, as just about anyone else does who learns Judo, probably because Judo is so widespread, but pretty well-managed via the national organizations who operate under the international governing bodies.  I learned my aikido techniques' names in Japanese as well, as that's how it was taught to me and we were held responsible for knowing that for shodan, as the test would be called out (maybe sometimes) and those ommands would be in Japanese. If you didn't do the right thing, probably not going to pass (just like everyone else, I gather).  So, in that sense, if you're a judo player taking to another judo player, barring the accents people speak with which reflect their region from whence they come, the words are generally the same.

   Can you translate from Japanese to English and get meaning that way? Sure you can. Tomoenage/Circle Throw... or Ippon Seoinage/1-arm shoulder throw... there you go.  But, things get lost in translation, in my opinion.

   We could run around in circles talking about nomenclature and meaning, though.  Tomoenage means much more to me than does Circle Throw, even though I know they are synonomous (or are supposed to be so, otherwise it's not a good translation... is it.).  I think the neural imprinting that takes place during class/practice, when you're talking about a technique (using Japenese) and discussing how the technique is performed (using Japanese), considering the tactics involved in a technique (using Japanese), fine-tuning the technique (using Japanese), and calling out the technique when teaching (using Japanese) all increase the depth and level of "meaning" to the Japanese terms.  This could be the situation in a TKD or HKD dojang as well, if (as was my experience down here in Houston) the instructor exclusively used all the Korean terms to teach class... counting, kicks, punches, blocks, movements, left-side/right-side and so on. But, since I'd already immersed myself in those same techniques' English names, that Korean didn't stick and I'd be doing a running Korean-English-Korean translation in my mind all class long.

   I find that, for me, the Japanese terms for the techniques have more meaning. I think it's because of the above. So, when I talk about it to someone, it automatically starts to come out in Japanese... but if their eyes go blank I've been teaching long enough to flip it into a simple enough English phrasing to get my point across. Mostly.  It's like it's all about compressing time... conveying the largest amount of information in the shortest amount of time, or syllables.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Japanese: Tomenage  -- English:  Circle Throw
> 
> ...still reading...


To me "circle throw" sounds like kaiten nage (Wheel Throw). I'll try to remember that for the future.


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## frank raud (Oct 31, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Tomoenage/Circle Throw..





gpseymour said:


> To me "circle throw" sounds like kaiten nage (Wheel Throw)



When I learned tomoenage, the translation we used was stomach throw.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2019)

frank raud said:


> When I learned tomoenage, the translation we used was stomach throw.


I think I've heard that term used, too. It certainly makes more sense in my head.


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## Buka (Nov 1, 2019)

Call it this, call it that, you say tomatoes, I say potatoes.

But when do we eat?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 1, 2019)

Buka said:


> Call it this, call it that, you say tomatoes, I say potatoes.
> 
> But when do we eat?



When the steaks are done. None of that vegetarian crap for me!


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## JP3 (Nov 1, 2019)

frank raud said:


> When I learned tomoenage, the translation we used was stomach throw.



Interesting, I was always Taught Circle Throw. I checked it online to see if I was off, and found this:

Tomoe nage - Wikipedia

but... that's Wikipedia. Compare with the translation of "Overhead Trhow," which I'd guess is probably just someone calling it something in English to explain what it "looks like to us."

Here's another where they don't use "Circle Throw" they instead use "CircuLAR Throw:"

Glossary of Judo waza (techniques) terms: Tomoe-nage (Circular throw) | Judo Channel | Token Corporation: Official partner of the All Japan Judo Federation (Zenjuren)

Translating Japanese to English is NOT an exact science, I don't think. We can get close, but not precisely, correct.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Interesting, I was always Taught Circle Throw. I checked it online to see if I was off, and found this:
> 
> Tomoe nage - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Translating any language is always an art. My understanding is that the Japanese language is fundamentally and conceptually different from English in ways that make most translations approximations.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Interesting, I was always Taught Circle Throw. I checked it online to see if I was off, and found this:
> 
> Tomoe nage - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Quick swerve on this, JP. How early is tomoe nage generally taught in the Judo curriculum? Same question for Danzan-ryu folks. I ask because Tomoe Nage has become part of my standard curriculum (though it's oddly not one of the Classical techniques in NGA).

That Wikipedia article referred to yoko tomoe nage, so I had to look that one up. I hadn't seen that before. An interesting variation on the principles, and not what I expected. I thought it would be closer to our Groin Block (think tomoe nage, but sutemi is to the side, while uke still continues in the same direction as in tomoe nage).


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## frank raud (Nov 2, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Interesting, I was always Taught Circle Throw. I checked it online to see if I was off, and found this:
> 
> Tomoe nage - Wikipedia
> 
> ...



Which is why it is better to use the Japanese terminology for Japanese techniques if possible. We all know what tomoenage is, but have at least three variations on the description in English.


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## jobo (Nov 3, 2019)

frank raud said:


> Which is why it is better to use the Japanese terminology for Japanese techniques if possible. We all know what tomoenage is, but have at least three variations on the description in English.


but then the japanese are busy anglicising their language by replacing japanese terms with English ones, so clearly they don't think it best


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2019)

jobo said:


> but then the japanese are busy anglicising their language by replacing japanese terms with English ones, so clearly they don't think it best


Whatever is best understood in context is the best choice. With so many English-speakers in the arts, and other influences of English in the world, I’m not surprised there’s some influence on Japanese terminology.


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## jobo (Nov 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Whatever is best understood in context is the best choice. With so many English-speakers in the arts, and other influences of English in the world, I’m not surprised there’s some influence on Japanese terminology.


its a bit more than '' some influence'' its quite significant in japan and lots of other countries, finding non english speakers in the younger generations is quite a challenge,  its just natural for them to disperse english into their everyday language.

Its going the way of welsh '' did you know Wales has its own language, that varius zelliots insist on trying to keep alive, even though next to no one speaks it fluently or at all in everyday conversation, they insist on Welsh language road signs and news broadcasts etc, to an audience of about 2000.

listening to it, its quite easy to follow whats being said, as they haven't got a welsh word for anything that's been invented, discovered or conceptualized in the last 300 years


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## JP3 (Nov 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> but then the japanese are busy anglicising their language by replacing japanese terms with English ones, so clearly they don't think it best


Are they? Not saying they're not, but ... not going to Japan much I didn't know that.


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## JP3 (Nov 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Quick swerve on this, JP. How early is tomoe nage generally taught in the Judo curriculum? Same question for Danzan-ryu folks. I ask because Tomoe Nage has become part of my standard curriculum (though it's oddly not one of the Classical techniques in NGA).
> 
> That Wikipedia article referred to yoko tomoe nage, so I had to look that one up. I hadn't seen that before. An interesting variation on the principles, and not what I expected. I thought it would be closer to our Groin Block (think tomoe nage, but sutemi is to the side, while uke still continues in the same direction as in tomoe nage).


Gerry,

	If one was teaching directly from the gokyo (series of 40 techniques) from Kodokan Judo, I think that Tomoe is #23 out of the 40, being in Group 3 (Dai-Sankyo) of the Gokyo.  Yep, just found the breakdown on judoinfo.com, here:

The Gokyo of Kodokan: 40 Throwing Techniques – Judo Info

	So, I think that's about at green belt is where the requirement, if you call it that, would show up... to be able to sort-of perform Tomoenage.

But, the thing is, judo instructors are an independent lot, even with all the structuree that comes from international associations/organizations policing the quality and stuff.  

   For me, I'd probably introduce Tomoenage to a person after their first promotion, as by then they'll have the basic idea of ukemi in their head, the idea of accepting the fall, rounding the body for rolling, etc. So, they're less likely to fall backwards like a plank (which Can be useful for some of the yoko-sutemiwaza, interestingly enough... just don't let go of uke as he's your "cushion" or "brake").


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## jobo (Nov 8, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Are they? Not saying they're not, but ... not going to Japan much I didn't know that.


yes they are, its estimated that 10% of spoken japanese is now english words, and rising fast

How Japanese vocabulary is being destroyed by English | Antimoon Forum


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 8, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Gerry,
> 
> If one was teaching directly from the gokyo (series of 40 techniques) from Kodokan Judo, I think that Tomoe is #23 out of the 40, being in Group 3 (Dai-Sankyo) of the Gokyo.  Yep, just found the breakdown on judoinfo.com, here:
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking that up for me. I tend to introduce it fairly early (close to where you're talking about), because I find it a more direct application of sutemi principles than some of the NGA sutemi waza.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 11, 2019)

Interesting thread in a number of ways.... just, for the record....

Tomoe nage is probably best described as a "pendulum", or "droplet" throw... a tomoe is a swirling form, think of one half of the classic "Yin'Yang" symbol. The tomoe is found in a number of forms in Japanese culture, such as in groups of three (mitsu-tomoe) in a number of Japanese family crests as an example. "Kaiten nage" would be a "rotating", or "rolling" throw... a "stomach throw" would be "hara-nage".... a "circle throw" would be any of a number of terms, "en no nage" would be the most literal, although it could be "Enkei nage" (circular shape throw), "Marunage" (round throw), or a couple of others... but most commonly, the term "en" would be involved. And, while I'm here, from about page three, Blackknight mentioned that "Ken" means "punch"... actually, it means "fist", or "weapon", implying the object used to strike or attack... the most common term for a punch is "tsuki", more literally meaning "thrust (with a weapon, in context)"... classically, the idea or concept of punching in Japanese arts simply isn't the same as in Western ideals and cultural understanding.

And that brings us to the thrust of the question... why use Japanese terminology all the time? Well, for one thing, I'd disagree with the premise that practitioners of Japanese arts think of Japanese as a universal language of all martial arts... however, we do tend to think of the Japanese terms as universal, or at least, intrinsic enough to the arts we study to validate using them for preference over less specific terms (from inaccurate, or more vague attempted translations)... a good example of which is the discussion of the above tomoe nage. A number of "translations" were given, none of which were actually accurate, but were attempts to describe the throw in English. Despite the variation in English descriptive terms, using the term "Tomoe nage" is universal enough (largely thanks to the usage within Kodokan Judo... we'll come back to that) that, regardless of the specific English characterisation, everyone knew the throw being meant. In fact, reading "the throw Captain Kirk used so often" meant nothing to me... but the term "tomoe nage" instantly told me what Gerry was talking about. 

By the same token, I have an immediate understanding of what an Ippon Seoi Nage is, regardless of how it is described in English (a "shoulder" throw... it's not, for the record... "one arm shoulder throw", which could be any of a number of variants I know that can be commonly called that... a "one arm throw", which again could apply to a number of actions... and so on). And again, just for the record, Seoi Nage is one of those things that has a common English description that is sometimes taken to be a translation, when it's not... it's commonly referred to in English as a "shoulder throw", however the term for "shoulder" (that would be a kata-nage, for the record) does not appear in the name at all... in fact, when you look at the name in Japanese, it is comprised of the characters "Sei" 背, meaning "back", as in your spine/shoulder blade side of your body, "O(i)" 負い, meaning "to bear (upon)", and "Nage" 投げ, which means "to throw"... giving an actual translation as "to throw by bearing the opponent upon your back", a fairly accurate description of the category of throws... but not what you find in the English terms.

So why do we insist on using these Japanese terms? Often because they give information that is lacking in the English descriptions... it can be technical (as in Seoi Nage), cultural (such as the imagery in Tomoe Nage), historical, tactical (particularly within the older, classical arts), and more. It's less about the terms being universal, even within Japanese arts, as many different arts will use different terms for the same, or similar concepts... or use the same name for different ones. As an example, many are familiar with the term "Bo" meaning "staff"... or "Jo" meaning "stick"... and many have an idea of what those weapons are. However things are not quite that simple... for example, the "Bo" might be a Rokushaku-bo (almost exactly "six foot staff")... or it might be given a name such as Chobo (elongated stick), as used in schools such as Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heiho... or Nagabo (long staff)... or the length might be longer or shorter than what is expected (YSgR's Chobo, for instance, is closer to 5 feet, other schools use slightly longer staves for reach advantages, and so on). A "Jo" is commonly thought of as a four foot stick weapon, primarily from Shinto Muso Ryu, and also seen in many forms of Aikido... and is, like the Bo, sometimes called a Yonshaku-jo (four foot stick)... except Muhi Muteki Ryu refer to their staff weapon as a Jo, despite being close to 6 feet long... and the idea of a Jo's length, even in schools such as Shinto Muso Ryu, has varied over the years. Then we have other forms of Bo or Jo... such as Hanbo... Tanbo.... Tanjo... Te Giri Bo.... and many others that might or might not be recognisable... and might be used interchangeably, or might be very specific... and even that varies with the exact same terms. A classic example is the short sword... it might be called a Shoto, or a Wakizashi, or a Kodachi... and each might be used to describe the exact same thing... or might mean something specific, such as a specific weapon or part of a school's syllabus... and the one teacher might use the same term as either generic or specific... Japanese is all in the context. So don't worry, even Japanese martial artists get a bit confused by the Japanese terms!

But why is it so important to use the Japanese terms? For that, we need to do a little historical study... starting in the Japanese school system with Kano Jigoro, founder of Judo, and his Kodokan training methodology... 

In the late 1800's, a young martial artist called Kano Jigoro, who had studied and become licenced in two distinct classical Jujutsu systems, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (a relatively "new" classical art, being in it's second generation when Kano studied it, having been formed at the very end of the samurai rule), and Kito Ryu (an older art that included a number of facets of education, such as fighting in armour). Kano took his studies in these arts, as well as his knowledge of a few others and his understanding of academic education methods, and began to formulate a new training methodology, which he would come to refer to as Judo, distinct from the older Jujutsu systems. He altered a number of technical aspects, as well as developing a new teaching approach, focused more on developing skills in a confined area, rather than the more tactical centric approach of the older arts. This came to be symbolised by the free-form training and competitive formats that Judo is known for (for the record, many older Jujutsu, and even weaponry arts had extensive free-form training methods and sparring-like approaches), to the point that Judo became, in it's early days, a way for classical practitioners to test their abilities within Judo's context. It would not be uncommon to see a practitioners name card as stating, for example, "Takenouchi Ryu Jujutsu, Chuden Menkyo (Middle Licence) - Kodokan 4th Dan", indicating that the person held a middle level licence in Takenouchi Ryu, a classical jujutsu and weapons art, and had tested their skills to the level of 4th Dan in the open training at the Kodokan or one of it's affiliates. Due to this cross over between schools, general terminology came to be recognised throughout various arts, becoming a sort of universal terminology within Japan itself. This was the beginning of the development of standardised terminology for Japanese arts.

The next big development was found in the Japanese government. After the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and the development of the Meiji Restoration, where the Emperor Meiji, thorough his supporters, was restored as the ruler of Japan, and the Shogunate (military rulership) was overthrown, a number of edicts were passed that essentially ended the samurai, and the caste system that had ruled Japan for centuries. Having endured under the rule of the samurai for so long, much of Japan was not keen on embracing the culture that had acted as oppressive overlords for so long, leading to a great push back against anything seen as representing Japan's past. The newly formed government, however, as well as many business concerns, being headed by former samurai or samurai families, wanted to assist in preserving the culture of their ancestors, so a number of bodies were formed for the promotion and preservation of Japanese martial arts, under the guise of preserving unique Japanese culture. These bodies were responsible for things such as standardising modern martial arts, such as Kendo, Iaido, and so on, as well as being instrumental in helping rebuild the arts after the ban following WWII. They formulated the 9 Budo (Martial Ways/Arts) of Japan, giving particular status to nine "modern" budo arts as representative of Japanese culture; Kendo (modern sword art, which also acts as an umbrella for Iaido [sword drawing], and jodo [short staff]), Kyudo (archery), Judo (a throwing based competitive art), Aikido (a modern art based in locks, throws, and pinning methods), Karate-do (specifically referring to Japanese-based groups, such as Shotokan, Kyokushin, Wado-ryu etc, rather than the Okinawan forms, such as Uechi Ryu, Goju Ryu etc), Sumo (a very old form of grappling competition), Shorinji Kempo (ostensibly a mix of native Japanese arts and Shaolin-based kung fu... Shorinji Kempo is pretty much the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin Chuan-fa/Fist Methods"), Atarashii Naginata ("new" naginata, a long pole arm with a curved blade), and Jukendo (bayonet fighting based on older spear methods, and developed in the early 20th Century).

The Nippon Budokan organisation developed a "Budo Charter" for the promotion of Japanese Culture through Martial Arts, and began to push these ideas with sponsored visits, lectures, demonstrations, and more throughout Japan and the world. This, of course, has lead to a strong connection between the concept of teaching Japanese martial arts, and the teaching (and promotion) of Japanese culture... which is expressed not only through the actions, but through the language, which, of course, gives a greater appreciation back to the source of the art itself... Japan.

From this, we can see the usage of Japanese terms is three-fold (at least):
- Ease of communication by using terms that are understood by all involved (in the relevant arts)
- Lack of confusion by using many (often inaccurate) non-Japanese terms.
- Promotion of Japanese culture through martial arts.

Of course, each culture and community has it's own language... and the terms are found in each cultures art... to a greater or lesser degree. BJJ uses a mix of terms from different cultures, including Japanese (Kimono, Jiu-jitsu, etc), English (Mount, Guard etc), and Portuguese (Omoplata, Americana, and so on), reflecting it's mix of heritage and position in the world today... Chinese arts use Mandarin or Cantonese, depending on their origins... Korean arts often use Korean, especially in Korea (obviously!)... but Japanese arts tend to focus more on the idea of promoting Japanese culture, giving rise to the seemingly (but, I feel, not substantially) higher degree of usage of Japanese terminology. However I do feel that it is mainly used to speak within the context of Japanese arts, rather than being seen as "standard language" for all martial arts.


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## geezer (Nov 11, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> I do feel that it is mainly used to speak within the context of Japanese arts, rather than being seen as "standard language" for all martial arts.



_Chris Parker!_  Welcome back sir.

I don't believe you've posted here in several months, and your exceedingly well informed and highly detailed posts have been missed. I suppose that the edited version of your post I quoted above would have answered the OP's question adequately ...but what a loss of information it would have been for us all. Thank you for your input.


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## jobo (Nov 12, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Interesting thread in a number of ways.... just, for the record....
> 
> Tomoe nage is probably best described as a "pendulum", or "droplet" throw... a tomoe is a swirling form, think of one half of the classic "Yin'Yang" symbol. The tomoe is found in a number of forms in Japanese culture, such as in groups of three (mitsu-tomoe) in a number of Japanese family crests as an example. "Kaiten nage" would be a "rotating", or "rolling" throw... a "stomach throw" would be "hara-nage".... a "circle throw" would be any of a number of terms, "en no nage" would be the most literal, although it could be "Enkei nage" (circular shape throw), "Marunage" (round throw), or a couple of others... but most commonly, the term "en" would be involved. And, while I'm here, from about page three, Blackknight mentioned that "Ken" means "punch"... actually, it means "fist", or "weapon", implying the object used to strike or attack... the most common term for a punch is "tsuki", more literally meaning "thrust (with a weapon, in context)"... classically, the idea or concept of punching in Japanese arts simply isn't the same as in Western ideals and cultural understanding.
> 
> ...


that's a very long post, but i cant see that any of the myriad of reasons you've given are a reasonable justification for using japanese terms

I can't see why anyone would want to promote japanese culture, particularly historic japanese culture, its hasn't got the best reputation for kindness to your fellow man and i can see no great hardship in saying 'today we are going to use the 4 foot stick' I suppose the fundamental question is do using the terms make you better at ma and i can see no reason why they might? In which case its a useless complication

it does rather smack of those folk who insist on using french just to show off their knowledge rather than trying to clearly express themselves


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## marques (Nov 12, 2019)

My guesses:
1. Translations are hard to do and often inaccurate.
2. Japanese arts are used to impose Japanese cultural superiority... This may be a bit too strong, but the point 1. was a weak argument. I really think Japanese martial arts, on top of their value as arts, or sports or..., are used to carry their culture out of their island.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 13, 2019)

geezer said:


> _Chris Parker!_  Welcome back sir.
> 
> I don't believe you've posted here in several months, and your exceedingly well informed and highly detailed posts have been missed. I suppose that the edited version of your post I quoted above would have answered the OP's question adequately ...but what a loss of information it would have been for us all. Thank you for your input.



Hey Geezer,

Thanks! As I've said though, even when I'm not here, I'm here... ha! Still, life happens, you know... and people like Tony have been doing well covering most of what I'd say in a number of threads anyway... and, to be honest, there are a few things that made being here a bit more wearying at times.... speaking of....



jobo said:


> that's a very long post, but i cant see that any of the myriad of reasons you've given are a reasonable justification for using japanese terms



So what? It's not about what's "reasonable" to you, and there is no need, desire, want, or prerogative to cater to your lacking grasp on the breadth of martial arts and the motivations, philosophies (yeah, I know you don't get that word either), approaches, or ideologies behind them or their practitioners. This is not about what is "reasonable" to you... it's about what's reasonable to the practitioners and the arts themselves.

It's really quite simple. If you are in a school that uses a lot of the native terminology of the art itself (in this case, Japanese), then it gets used... regardless of whatever you may think is "reasonable", or "outdated", or "useless", or "annoying", or "a waste", or anything else. If you don't like it, I'm sure you know the way out... of course, if you're not in a school that uses such terminology, then your views mean nothing to the people who are in such schools. 

This idea of "I don't get it, it doesn't match my values, therefore no one should do it" is pretty small minded, honestly... 



jobo said:


> I can't see why anyone would want to promote japanese culture, particularly historic japanese culture, its hasn't got the best reputation for kindness to your fellow man and i can see no great hardship in saying 'today we are going to use the 4 foot stick' I suppose the fundamental question is do using the terms make you better at ma and i can see no reason why they might? In which case its a useless complication



Yeah, again, really not anything that matters as far as we're concerned.... you can think all of that, but frankly, you're so far outside of the situation or conversation that you don't factor at all. You don't think the Japanese culture is worth promoting? Fine, don't do it... but telling people who appreciate the culture, or telling the Japanese themselves that their culture is not worth promoting or preserving is rather insulting, don't you think? You see no issue in saying "today we are going to use the 4 foot stick"? Neither do we. Mind you, it's not just about naming the weapon (although that's part of it)... it's about an immersion in the mentality of the school... which comes from the language used as much as the physical actions. Does the terminology make you better at martial arts? Well.... yes. They make you better at the art that use them, as you gain more insight, more understanding, more association, and deeper grasp of the essence of the school itself. You don't see that? Cool. But that doesn't mean it's not there... it just means that your martial experience is different... now you get to accept that others have different experiences and ideas as to what a martial art is actually made up of.



jobo said:


> it does rather smack of those folk who insist on using french just to show off their knowledge rather than trying to clearly express themselves



Then you don't understand it at all. I mean... you do know that there are certain words brought across from, for example, French, because they express concepts that aren't in existence in English, yeah? Terms that have a certain je ne sais quoi... and I know that some might read this and feel a form of schadenfreude... but that's fine as well... and the point remains.


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## jobo (Nov 13, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Geezer,
> 
> Thanks! As I've said though, even when I'm not here, I'm here... ha! Still, life happens, you know... and people like Tony have been doing well covering most of what I'd say in a number of threads anyway... and, to be honest, there are a few things that made being here a bit more wearying at times.... speaking of....
> 
> ...


if the Japanese or ttheir devotees  want to be insulted by pointing out historical facts of the mind blowing brutality of " historical' Japanese culture then so be it !

was Japanese culture responsible for the barbarism of the japanese empire, yes of course it was, what other reason could their be but their culture thought that acceptable.

let's put it this way, if a group set up a training camp, where they dressed up in german uniforms, practiced hurting people and speaking as much German as they could for the ways of hurting people, then they would quite rightly be called complete loons or extremists glorifying the excesses of the german empire. replace german with japanese and you have ma clubs and no one bats an eye


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## Chris Parker (Nov 13, 2019)

jobo said:


> if the Japanese or ttheir devotees  want to be insulted by pointing historical facts or the mind blowing brutality of " historical' Japanese culture then so be it !
> 
> was Japanese culture responsible for the barbarism of the japanese empire, yes of course it was, what other reason could their be but their culture thought that acceptable.
> 
> let's put it this way, if a group set up a training camp, were they dressed up in german uniforms, practiced hurting people and speaking as much German as they could for the ways of hurting people, then they would quite rightly be called complete loons or extremists glorifying the excesses of the german empire. replace german with japanese and you have ma clubs and no one bats an eye



Wow........ so...... you equate the entire culture to only the negative aspects? Dude........ 

I understand... you don't get it. Fine. But how about you acknowledge that fact as well, so we don't go round in circles, where we explain reality to you, and your limited views see you attempt to insult people with each post?

Oh, and as far as the German example.... have you looked into HEMA? Kunst de Fechtens? Names like Liechtenhauer? Joachim Meyer? Hans Talhoffer? Plenty of German terminology used there....


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 13, 2019)

jobo said:


> if the Japanese or ttheir devotees  want to be insulted by pointing out historical facts of the mind blowing brutality of " historical' Japanese culture then so be it !
> 
> was Japanese culture responsible for the barbarism of the japanese empire, yes of course it was, what other reason could their be but their culture thought that acceptable.
> 
> let's put it this way, if a group set up a training camp, where they dressed up in german uniforms, practiced hurting people and speaking as much German as they could for the ways of hurting people, then they would quite rightly be called complete loons or extremists glorifying the excesses of the german empire. replace german with japanese and you have ma clubs and no one bats an eye


If you're only going to speak using language from a culture with no history of brutality and atrocities, then you're going to have very few options. Maybe Esperanto?


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## jobo (Nov 13, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Wow........ so...... you equate the entire culture to only the negative aspects? Dude........
> 
> I understand... you don't get it. Fine. But how about you acknowledge that fact as well, so we don't go round in circles, where we explain reality to you, and your limited views see you attempt to insult people with each post?
> 
> Oh, and as far as the German example.... have you looked into HEMA? Kunst de Fechtens? Names like Liechtenhauer? Joachim Meyer? Hans Talhoffer? Plenty of German terminology used there....


if your insulted by facts theres not much I can do about it, but to be fair that's seems to be the modern philosophy  to air brush out inconvienent fact that dont suit your world view, I'm not particularly proud of my own countries culture, but it's as nothing compared with some other countries.

so a straight question can you take the positives from japanese culture and off set those against say the " rape of nanking" and say on the whole it's good or benifical to the world, allowing that it's the very same " positives " which were being  applied in nanking ?? or are you just cheery picking some aspect you agree with whilst ignoring the less palatable ones .


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## jobo (Nov 13, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you're only going to speak using language from a culture with no history of brutality and atrocities, then you're going to have very few options. Maybe Esperanto?


we are talking aboutspeaking a language for the main reason of promotion that culture,  which is the example given,rather that, choosing one to speak because you wish to converse with native speakers, which is completely different .

let's say someone decided to speak english because they were great fans of british colonial policy, whilst dressing up in a red coat and practising suppressing native uprisings, I'd consider that some what iffy as well, just as I do those folk that dress up as nazis under the pretence its a historic reenactment,


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2019)

Jobo, you've pushed this so far over the top that you are sounding absurd. An appreciation for traditional Japanese martial arts and a preference for using the Japanese terminology does not in any way indicate a support of the Japanese Imperialism of the WWII era. But if you want to condemn a whole culture for the excesses of that period, fine. If you don't want to use Japanese terms, great. Don't drive their cars, and don't use their products.

Now let's go a step further, and eliminate all Latin words from English 'cause them bad ol' Romans killled Jesus. Er ...um...Hold on ...WTF!. Oh sh--! Now I'm clean outta words.


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## Buka (Nov 13, 2019)

I had a cup of tea this morning. One of those tea bags with the little sayings on the tag. It said....

_Never argue with someone who was baptised in hot dog water._

So I think I'll just have me some popcorn now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 13, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Interesting thread in a number of ways.... just, for the record....
> 
> Tomoe nage is probably best described as a "pendulum", or "droplet" throw... a tomoe is a swirling form, think of one half of the classic "Yin'Yang" symbol. The tomoe is found in a number of forms in Japanese culture, such as in groups of three (mitsu-tomoe) in a number of Japanese family crests as an example. "Kaiten nage" would be a "rotating", or "rolling" throw... a "stomach throw" would be "hara-nage".... a "circle throw" would be any of a number of terms, "en no nage" would be the most literal, although it could be "Enkei nage" (circular shape throw), "Marunage" (round throw), or a couple of others... but most commonly, the term "en" would be involved. And, while I'm here, from about page three, Blackknight mentioned that "Ken" means "punch"... actually, it means "fist", or "weapon", implying the object used to strike or attack... the most common term for a punch is "tsuki", more literally meaning "thrust (with a weapon, in context)"... classically, the idea or concept of punching in Japanese arts simply isn't the same as in Western ideals and cultural understanding.
> 
> ...


Good information - thanks for sharing, Chris.

I will argue that the Japanese terms do not carry any more information than the English equivalent terms (what you've referred to as English descriptions) to those of us who speak no actual Japanese. Seoi nage is just a term for a group of throws, to me. In fact, when you gave the breakdown, I suspected some of the throws I know fall into that group, though I'd never heard that term used for them before. So, for those of you who know the language (or at least enough to understand the information contained in the terms), your point is valid. For the rest of us, they're just the names of the techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 13, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Geezer,
> 
> Thanks! As I've said though, even when I'm not here, I'm here... ha! Still, life happens, you know... and people like Tony have been doing well covering most of what I'd say in a number of threads anyway... and, to be honest, there are a few things that made being here a bit more wearying at times.... speaking of....
> 
> ...


Chris, it's not often I get to drop a "funny" rating on your posts, but the last paragraph made me chuckle. Thanks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 13, 2019)

jobo said:


> we are talking aboutspeaking a language for the main reason of promotion that culture,  which is the example given,rather that, choosing one to speak because you wish to converse with native speakers, which is completely different .
> 
> let's say someone decided to speak english because they were great fans of british colonial policy, whilst dressing up in a red coat and practising suppressing native uprisings, I'd consider that some what iffy as well, just as I do those folk that dress up as nazis under the pretence its a historic reenactment,


Wherein, again, you choose a single point in history and claim that's what's being supported. Weak, at best.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 13, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> This idea of "I don't get it, it doesn't match my values, therefore no one should do it" is pretty small minded, honestly....



But what if they say "Wakarimasen" ( わかりません )  

Sorry, could not resist...

Nice to see you're still around MT Chris


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## jobo (Nov 13, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Wherein, again, you choose a single point in history and claim that's what's being supported. Weak, at best.


well pick another point of Japanese pre ww2 history and we can discuss that, how far back do you want to go ?


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2019)

jobo said:


> well pick another point of Japanese pre ww2 history and we can discuss that, how far back do you want to go ?



Well, if I were Black or Native American I could pretty much say the same about US history. You know most earlier times in history would have been dreary at best for any of us who weren't very rich. What's your point?" 'Cause you are beginning to come off as _ ...prejudiced._

I mean, 'cmon, _Jobo_. It's not like we're talking about the _French _for Godsake! 

(Just kidding BTW. Part of my ancestry is French, along with a lot of English, Scottish, German and a bit of Irish, i.e. I'm an American Mutt).


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## jobo (Nov 13, 2019)

geezer said:


> Well, if I were Black or Native American I could pretty much say the same about US history. You know most earlier times in history would have been dreary at best for any of us who weren't very rich. What's your point?" 'Cause you are beginning to come off as _ ...prejudiced._
> 
> I mean, 'cmon, _Jobo_. It's not like we're talking about the _French _for Godsake!
> 
> (Just kidding BTW. Part of my ancestry is French, along with a lot of English, Scottish, German and a bit of Irish, i.e. I'm an American Mutt).


to be honest I wouldn't recommend american culture for any time in the last two hundred years. it was a bit better when we and the french were running it. The british were generally kinder to their colonial subjects than there at home subjects and canada turned out all right

I was amazed to learn that during the 1930s, the Americans were making semi serious plans to invade canada and the british in response were making semi serious plans to to blockade the eastern sea board and shell new york etal,,  it could have all been very different

But that not the point, The point is that the guy wanted to PROMOTE japanese culture and i'm asking for anything good about it to promote, if your making the point they were all bad, which they were to varying degrees, that still doesn't make japanese culture worthy of promotion, it just means you should not be promoting any of them


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 13, 2019)

In US, if your Karate school requires you to knee down in front of a Japanese flag (on the wall) and touch your head on the floor, will you do it?


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## _Simon_ (Nov 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In US, if your Karate school requires you to knee down in front of a Japanese flag (on the wall) and touch your head on the floor, will you do it?


YES! SIGN ME UP!


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## Chris Parker (Nov 14, 2019)

Okay, if I'm going to be back, might as well be back....



jobo said:


> if your insulted by facts theres not much I can do about it, but to be fair that's seems to be the modern philosophy  to air brush out inconvienent fact that dont suit your world view, I'm not particularly proud of my own countries culture, but it's as nothing compared with some other countries.



I'm not insulted by facts, I am, however, insulted by your attitude and insinuations.



jobo said:


> so a straight question can you take the positives from japanese culture and off set those against say the " rape of nanking" and say on the whole it's good or benifical to the world, allowing that it's the very same " positives " which were being  applied in nanking ?? or are you just cheery picking some aspect you agree with whilst ignoring the less palatable ones .



You're equating "culture" with "historical events".... they are not the same thing. Unless you want to tell me that the "American culture" is one of dropping atomic weapons? Of assassinating presidents? These are events... but are not necessarily typical or even representative of the culture... in fact, they can be seen as notable as they are actually antithetic to the culture of the US.



jobo said:


> we are talking aboutspeaking a language for the main reason of promotion that culture,  which is the example given,rather that, choosing one to speak because you wish to converse with native speakers, which is completely different .



No, we are talking about predominantly using native Japanese terminology in Japanese arts in part for assisting in spreading Japanese culture... I would not say it's the main reason, but is a large one. The ease of communication with Japanese teachers is another part of it, as well as ease of accurate communication between different practitioners of different languages and nationalities.



jobo said:


> let's say someone decided to speak english because they were great fans of british colonial policy, whilst dressing up in a red coat and practising suppressing native uprisings, I'd consider that some what iffy as well, just as I do those folk that dress up as nazis under the pretence its a historic reenactment,



You do realise that practicing a Japanese martial art, and using Japanese terminology is not really the same as re-enacting WWII atrocities? Or are you seriously believing that your reducto ad absurdum argument has any kind of merit at all?



jobo said:


> well pick another point of Japanese pre ww2 history and we can discuss that, how far back do you want to go ?



Once again, historical events are not the same as a national culture... but, if you insist, let's look at the collected works of Hokusai... perhaps Sen no Rikyu and his development of the tea ceremony? How about the innovations regarding Japanese clothing and dying... or carpentry and architecture... maybe you'd prefer we start to look at Kabuki or Noh theatre... we could look at the concepts of etiquette, often derived from Ogasawara teachings or similar... concepts of duty and propriety... honourable action in thought, word, and deed... a look to the benefit fo the collective rather than the individual... I can go on, if you'd like... of course, if you'd rather just focus on negative events at the expense of understanding that actual culture or discussion, then there's no point you even being in this discussion.



jobo said:


> to be honest I wouldn't recommend american culture for any time in the last two hundred years. it was a bit better when we and the french were running it. The british were generally kinder to their colonial subjects than there at home subjects and canada turned out all right
> 
> I was amazed to learn that during the 1930s, the Americans were making semi serious plans to invade canada and the british in response were making semi serious plans to to blockade the eastern sea board and shell new york etal,,  it could have all been very different



None of this is "culture"....



jobo said:


> But that not the point, The point is that the guy wanted to PROMOTE japanese culture and i'm asking for anything good about it to promote, if your making the point they were all bad, which they were to varying degrees, that still doesn't make japanese culture worthy of promotion, it just means you should not be promoting any of them



Really? You might want to go back are re-read, then... "The guy" said nothing about his wanting to promote Japanese culture... instead, he gave an explanation as tot he mindset of Japanese martial arts, coming from the Japanese government, and Japanese martial art instructors, which leads to an insistence on using Japanese terminology (in part). And you do get that Japanese culture is quite a patriotic one, yes? There is a real belief in the value of their culture, and a want to promote it, and it's unique aspects, both in Japan and to the world...

This is really no different than anyone being proud of their culture and wanting to promote it... which is both natural and common... it's just that the Japanese formalised that desire to a greater degree than most.



gpseymour said:


> Good information - thanks for sharing, Chris.



Hey Gerry, thanks.



gpseymour said:


> I will argue that the Japanese terms do not carry any more information than the English equivalent terms (what you've referred to as English descriptions) to those of us who speak no actual Japanese. Seoi nage is just a term for a group of throws, to me. In fact, when you gave the breakdown, I suspected some of the throws I know fall into that group, though I'd never heard that term used for them before. So, for those of you who know the language (or at least enough to understand the information contained in the terms), your point is valid. For the rest of us, they're just the names of the techniques.



I can understand that attitude... of course, the argument I would make there is... learn. An unspoken rule for Japanese arts is to endeavour to understand as many aspects, if not all, as possible... including the language used, and the insights the names and terminology used give. To a great degree, an argument can be made that, if you're not going into those details, then you're not really engaging in the study of a Japanese martial art... instead, it's just a series of actions... if that's all you want, cool. But it's quite a bit removed from the real study (in this approach).



Xue Sheng said:


> But what if they say "Wakarimasen" ( わかりません )



But.... "I don't understand".... ha!



Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry, could not resist...



Neither could I...



Xue Sheng said:


> Nice to see you're still around MT Chris



Good to see you too.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> In US, if your Karate school requires you to knee down in front of a Japanese flag (on the wall) and touch your head on the floor, will you do it?



What?

Again, you do what the school dictates. If you don't agree, for whatever reason.... well, you know where the door is. No one forces you to be a part of the school....[/QUOTE]


----------



## jobo (Nov 14, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, if I'm going to be back, might as well be back....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
    no there not the same thing, but they are heavily intertwined, culture dictates historic events and events change culture.

on your other point, yes american culture and the dropping of atomic bomb on helpless civilians are indeed closely linked. there's very few nations on earth, certainly '' civilised ''ones that would have done that. therefore if we consider a culture that has genocide in its recent history and how shall we put it,, ? civil rights issues, then you can see that the culture is largely responsible for not caring anything about the fate of a 100,000 or so people. It was certainly culturally acceptable or they wouldn't have done it, cant see many people shedding tears in the victory in the pacific celebrations


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 14, 2019)

Actions and events can be extensions of cultural aspects, but are rarely, if ever, even close to the entirety of the culture itself. I would also suggest that the dropping of the atomic weapons on Japan was not so much symbolic or representative of the American culture... additionally, nothing exists in a vacuum... so you'd need to identify what aspect of the culture you're talking about. Which is why the events are not the same as the culture.... and the promotion of a culture is not promotion of particular events.

In other words, dude, you are seriously off base in all of this.


----------



## jobo (Nov 14, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> Actions and events can be extensions of cultural aspects, but are rarely, if ever, even close to the entirety of the culture itself. I would also suggest that the dropping of the atomic weapons on Japan was not so much symbolic or representative of the American culture... additionally, nothing exists in a vacuum... so you'd need to identify what aspect of the culture you're talking about. Which is why the events are not the same as the culture.... and the promotion of a culture is not promotion of particular events.
> 
> In other words, dude, you are seriously off base in all of this.


these are self proving statements. no other country has done that, so we honestly need to ask what's ''special'' about american culture, not only that they would do it, but celebrate doing it. .

a very quick review of culturally acceptable historic events in america comparatively recent past, from the treatment of native Americans to leaving people to starve in the dust bowl, shows it not to be at out of character with the American dream


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 14, 2019)

"Socially accepted" and "culturally acceptable" are not the same thing.... and I would argue that very few Americans celebrate the usage of atomic weaponry. So no, your comments fail in the face of actually understanding these terms. As far as why the Americans are the only ones who have used nuclear weapons, well.... at the time, they were the only ones who had developed them to the point that they were feasible... and a strong argument could be made that the Japanese were not going to surrender unless absolutely forced into it by an overwhelming reason, and, in that sense, the usage and deployment potentially brought the Pacific War to an end much sooner than would have happened, leading to many lives being saved at the expense of the victims of the Enola Gay and Bockscar's payloads. It's not celebrated as a positive action in many circles, though, and the decision would have been deeply agonising for Truman and all involved.

But seriously, this is all completely besides the point of this thread... you've gone off on a tangent that is ludicrous, and simply shows how little you grasp the concepts here. I recommend you stop embarrassing yourself, and leave it at this.


----------



## jobo (Nov 14, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> "Socially accepted" and "culturally acceptable" are not the same thing.... and I would argue that very few Americans celebrate the usage of atomic weaponry. So no, your comments fail in the face of actually understanding these terms. As far as why the Americans are the only ones who have used nuclear weapons, well.... at the time, they were the only ones who had developed them to the point that they were feasible... and a strong argument could be made that the Japanese were not going to surrender unless absolutely forced into it by an overwhelming reason, and, in that sense, the usage and deployment potentially brought the Pacific War to an end much sooner than would have happened, leading to many lives being saved at the expense of the victims of the Enola Gay and Bockscar's payloads. It's not celebrated as a positive action in many circles, though, and the decision would have been deeply agonising for Truman and all involved.
> 
> But seriously, this is all completely besides the point of this thread... you've gone off on a tangent that is ludicrous, and simply shows how little you grasp the concepts here. I recommend you stop embarrassing yourself, and leave it at this.


i've not gone off at a tangent, you brought america and atomic bombs in to the discussion..

wheeling out all the old justifications, that didn't have much validity in the first place and non at all now, only shows the culture hasn't changed as much as i might hope

governments certainly democratic governments can only do that which is culturally acceptable, if you want to call that socially acceptable rather than culturally acceptable feel free they are the same thing.

what is accepted by a society is the same as what that society is culturally prepared to accept


----------



## geezer (Nov 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> ....wheeling out all the old justifications, that didn't have much validity in the first place and non at all now, only shows the culture hasn't changed as much as i might hope



Not sure how Chris's "wheeling out all the old justifications..." shows that we Americans haven't changed. Not that we have or anything... but still, Chris is an _Aussie._ So he's viewing America from afar. And Japan from a-near. If that's even a word.


----------



## jobo (Nov 14, 2019)

geezer said:


> Not sure how Chris's "wheeling out all the old justifications..." shows that we Americans haven't changed. Not that we have or anything... but still, Chris is an _Aussie._ So he's viewing America from afar. And Japan from a-near. If that's even a word.


well that makes it somehow worse


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> well pick another point of Japanese pre ww2 history and we can discuss that, how far back do you want to go ?


The confirmation bias is strong in this one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In US, if your Karate school requires you to knee down in front of a Japanese flag (on the wall) and touch your head on the floor, will you do it?


It matters not to me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 14, 2019)

Chris Parker said:


> I can understand that attitude... of course, the argument I would make there is... learn. An unspoken rule for Japanese arts is to endeavour to understand as many aspects, if not all, as possible... including the language used, and the insights the names and terminology used give. To a great degree, an argument can be made that, if you're not going into those details, then you're not really engaging in the study of a Japanese martial art... instead, it's just a series of actions... if that's all you want, cool. But it's quite a bit removed from the real study (in this approach).


That’s probably overstated, but not entirely inaccurate. What I study isn’t actually a Japanese MA. It’s the American expression (derivation?) of a Japanese MA. The principles and practices were adjusted to American culture when the art came over. 
However, since the dojo in Hokkaido actually started the process of using English terminology, the Japanese names of techniques apparently are not an integral part of the art.


----------



## Buka (Nov 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In US, if your Karate school requires you to knee down in front of a Japanese flag (on the wall) and touch your head on the floor, will you do it?


Key word in your question, at least for me is "your" karate school. If it's mine, yeah, sure okay. Especially since there would always be a United States flag beside it. Always.

If it's a friend's school I'd do it out of respect. Same thing if it was a stranger's school, out of respect and protocol.

I really don't like bowing or saluting any foreign flag without our flag next to it.





>


----------



## pdg (Nov 15, 2019)

geezer said:


> them bad ol' Romans killled Jesus



Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 17, 2019)

i can actually see Little Boy being an extension of American culture.  we are all about instant gratification, very impatient and tend to run roughshod over others.


----------



## geezer (Nov 18, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> i can actually see Little Boy being an extension of American culture.  we are all about instant gratification, very impatient and tend to run roughshod over others.



Huh? I'm reading this drinking my_ instant_ coffee, and wondering what my being impatient and craving instant gratification has to do with dropping the A-bomb.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 18, 2019)

geezer said:


> Huh? I'm reading this drinking my_ instant_ coffee, and wondering what my being impatient and craving instant gratification has to do with dropping the A-bomb.


Of course I was being tongue in cheek,  but I was making an anology comparison of the instant wiping a city off the map with your instant coffee.  We Americans don't have time for all that storming the shores and rolling tanks, you know all that marching the troops......one little boom ..instant... while I'm sitting on the other side of the ocean drinking coffee.


----------



## Mitlov (Nov 23, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> Of course I was being tongue in cheek,  but I was making an anology comparison of the instant wiping a city off the map with your instant coffee.  We Americans don't have time for all that storming the shores and rolling tanks, you know all that marching the troops......one little boom ..instant... while I'm sitting on the other side of the ocean drinking coffee.



I'm not sure the Marines who fought on Guadalcanal, Peleliu, and Iwo Jima would agree with that summary of the fighting in the Pacific Theater.


----------



## geezer (Nov 24, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> I'm not sure the Marines who fought on Guadalcanal, Peleliu, and Iwo Jima would agree with that summary of the fighting in the Pacific Theater.


...Or those scientists like Oppenheimer who worked day and night on the Manhattan Project, knowing that if they didn’t get there first, ...well, did anyone watch “The Man in the High Castle”?


----------



## jobo (Nov 24, 2019)

geezer said:


> ...Or those scientists like Oppenheimer who worked day and night on the Manhattan Project, knowing that if they didn’t get there first, ...well, did anyone watch “The Man in the High Castle”?


well that doesn't hold up to scutany, the Germans weren't even close to having a nuclear bombs, they effectively gave up any serious attempt to make one in 1941 ,  d coding to concentrate resources on conventual weapons.

in fact the Americans didn't have one either when the war in Europe finished, so it was developed just to bomb Japan, who were not even trying to make one, so the suggestion they had to get there first is nonsense


----------



## geezer (Nov 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> ...so the suggestion they had to get there first is nonsense


Of course you are correct about the Germans not being close to having an A-Bomb. But in 1942 when the United States, Canada and the U.K. initiated the project, they could not know this. They did know that there was a real danger that the war could be lost. So what’s your point?


----------



## jobo (Nov 24, 2019)

geezer said:


> Of course you are correct about the Germans not being close to having an A-Bomb. But in 1942 when the United States, Canada and the U.K. initiated the project, they could not know this. They did know that there was a real danger that the war could be lost. So what’s your point?


I suspect with the amount of intelligence they had they had a good idea, but my point is that even if they believed they were in a race with the germans, then must have known that this race was over when the germans imploded and surrendered. but they carried on developing the bomb, JUST to drop on Japan. who nobody thought had an a bòmb

just to be clear, they didn't have a bomb, when Germany surrender, it was built solely for japan, what did oppenhiemer think he was doing then ??


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 24, 2019)




----------



## geezer (Nov 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> ...it was built solely for japan, what did oppenhiemer think he was doing then ??



Maybe he and his colleagues thought they  were working on something that would put an end to the war, and be a deterrent to others that would come after? 

I’m not a historian. If you want to know what those guys were thinking, you research it. The decision to drop the bomb ...twice, is subject of legitimate debate. The making of the bomb ...by someone, was inevitable. Personally, I’m glad it was the Anglo allies, not the Axis, and not the Soviets.

Now maybe we can get back to the OP???


----------



## Mitlov (Nov 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> well that doesn't hold up to scutany, the Germans weren't even close to having a nuclear bombs, they effectively gave up any serious attempt to make one in 1941 ,  d coding to concentrate resources on conventual weapons.
> 
> in fact the Americans didn't have one either when the war in Europe finished, so it was developed just to bomb Japan, who were not even trying to make one, so the suggestion they had to get there first is nonsense



It was most of the way through development when Germany surrendered. It was developed for use against either. 

As for its use atheist Japan, setting aside whatever peoples' personal motivations were, given our tactics and technology of the time, a ground invasion of Japan would have killed even more civilians than the atomic bombings did. Keep in mind that during the invasion of Okinawa, somewhere between 15% and 50% of the island's civilian population was killed (as well as 15,000 American combatants and 100,000 Japanese combatants). 

Battle of Okinawa - Wikipedia

That does not make targeting civilians morally okay. By 21st standards, the atomic bombings of cities are an atrocity. But the question of "if not this, than what" is a hard one, and eliminates this characterization that it was an act of lazy, comfortable Americans.


----------



## jobo (Nov 24, 2019)

geezer said:


> Maybe he and his colleagues thought they  were working on something that would put an end to the war, and be a deterrent to others that would come after?
> 
> I’m not a historian. If you want to know what those guys were thinking, you research it. The decision to drop the bomb ...twice, is subject of legitimate debate. The making of the bomb ...by someone, was inevitable. Personally, I’m glad it was the Anglo allies, not the Axis, and not the Soviets.
> 
> Now maybe we can get back to the OP???


but you were TELLING me what he was thinking, you know when he was slaving away thinking  "got to beat the germans, oh we did great "


----------



## jobo (Nov 24, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> It was most of the way through development when Germany surrendered. It was developed for use against either.
> 
> As for its use atheist Japan, setting aside whatever peoples' personal motivations were, given our tactics and technology of the time, a ground invasion of Japan would have killed even more civilians than the atomic bombings did. Keep in mind that during the invasion of Okinawa, somewhere between 15% and 50% of the island's civilian population was killed (as well as 15,000 American combatants and 100,000 Japanese combatants).
> 
> ...


.. why did they have to invade either Okinawa or japan .? they had sunk all the ships they could have just  have accepted conditional surrender and gone home and saved even more lives...if saving lives rather than setting up naval bases was there main concern.. BETWEEN 15 AND 50 % ....??. that's some margin of error


----------



## Mitlov (Nov 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> .. why did they have to invade either Okinawa or japan .? they had sunk all the ships they could have just gone home and saved even more lives...if saving lives rather than setting up naval bases was there main concern.. BETWEEN 15 AND 50 % ....??. that's some margin of error



There are various analyses of the civilian cost of the Battle of Okinawa. Given the total destruction and various methods of estimating, as well as differing ways of classifying who is a combatant in that sort of hellish warfare, there is a wide range of estimates. 

Japan would not have surrendered if the USA just turned around and retreated. And they were refusing to surrender despite the fact that we'd crushed their navy. If we wanted Japan to surrender, I'm not aware of a third option besides the nuclear bombings or a ground invasion.


----------



## jobo (Nov 24, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> There are various analyses of the civilian cost of the Battle of Okinawa. Given the total destruction and various methods of estimating, as well as differing ways of classifying who is a combatant in that sort of hellish warfare, there is a wide range of estimates.
> 
> Japan would not have surrendered if the USA just turned around and retreated. And they were refusing to surrender despite the fact that we'd crushed their navy. If we wanted Japan to surrender, I'm not aware of a third option besides the nuclear bombings or a ground invasion.


japan wanted to sue for peace , the Americans insisted on unconditional surrender, because they wanted naval basis.

so they killed an unspecified number at Okinawa  and evaporated some women and children with a A bomb to get their way and their bases

as it is the japanese only surrender when Russia declared war on them, so the whole thing was a waste of lives


----------



## geezer (Nov 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> but you were TELLING me what he was thinking, you know when he was slaving away thinking  "got to beat the germans, oh we did great "


Re-read my first post on this, #133. No reference to the Germans in particular, rather to the war effort, and a casual reference to a fictional TV series based on a scenario in which the Germans and the Japanese won WWII. Not all that important anyway. I don’t care to argue. I’ll let you get back to the OP.

To the rest of you, sorry about the digression.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 26, 2019)

geezer said:


> a fictional TV series based on a scenario in which the Germans and the Japanese won WWII.


A fictional movie, "The World Sinks Except Japan".


----------



## Buka (Nov 27, 2019)

It’s always nice to hear the opinion of a Brit concerning World War 2.


----------



## geezer (Nov 27, 2019)

Buka said:


> It’s always nice to hear the opinion of a Brit concerning World War 2.


Personally, I’d rather get Tez’s opinion on this one!


----------



## jobo (Nov 27, 2019)

geezer said:


> Personally, I’d rather get Tez’s opinion on this one!


there not opinions, they're facts, which you could easily verify if you weren't getting your historical perspective from amazon prime originals


----------



## vince1 (Nov 28, 2019)

I asked my Aikijuijitsu teacher why he doesn't use Japanese terminology and he said its because we don't live in Japan. He then asked if I had a problem with that. lol


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> japan wanted to sue for peace , the Americans insisted on unconditional surrender, because they wanted naval basis.
> 
> so they killed an unspecified number at Okinawa  and evaporated some women and children with a A bomb to get their way and their bases
> 
> as it is the japanese only surrender when Russia declared war on them, so the whole thing was a waste of lives


That is what you took away from the war effort? Sad and very misguided. Makes a person wonder what are they putting in the history books over there. 
Strangely, you seem to be the only one with that perspective.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> i can actually see Little Boy being an extension of American culture. we are all about instant gratification, very impatient and tend to run roughshod over others.





geezer said:


> Huh? I'm reading this drinking my_ instant_ coffee, and wondering what my being impatient and craving instant gratification has to do with dropping the A-bomb.



I hear you geezer. 
@hoshin1600, that may be an impression left by some in the more recent generations but it certainly is not the mainstream culture in America. You, like many others have gotten sucked into believing everything you hear/read from the "news" mediums you choose to listen to.

Honestly, that comment is very insulting.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> well that doesn't hold up to scutany, the Germans weren't even close to having a nuclear bombs, they effectively gave up any serious attempt to make one in 1941 ,  d coding to concentrate resources on conventual weapons.
> 
> in fact the Americans didn't have one either when the war in Europe finished, so it was developed just to bomb Japan, who were not even trying to make one, so the suggestion they had to get there first is nonsense


And I guess Japanese planes did not bombs on the Hawaiian Islands either, right?


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is what you took away from the war effort? Sad and very misguided. Makes a person wonder what are they putting in the history books over there.
> Strangely, you seem to be the only one with that perspective.


most of them have history in them, you should try one, you may amazed to realise what contain with in, rather than biting on the narrative pushed by the american establishment and hollywood,

 there are multiple modern democracies that just dennie that crimes against humanity committed by that countries passed actually happen, america it seems amongst them,

 if you dont agree with my take, try posting some facts that contradict my posts rather than emotional statements

the heavy civilian death toll in okinawa was mostly the result of the americans shooting anything that moved and to a much lessor extent the japanese encouraging them to commit suicide

to then use that death toll for which they were mostly responsible as justification to drop A BOMBS is bizarre logic. though maybe if they went on a killing spree of civilians on main land japan comparable with okinawa, then the death toll may have been higher
THEN
Japan was quite prepared to let america bomb half a dozen cities rather than unconditional surrender, america was quite prepared to drop another 4 bombs or so to make them.

i
in that context its hard to decide which was the bad guy


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> most of them have history in them, you should try one, you may amazed to realise what contain with in, rather than biting on the narrative pushed by the american establishment and hollywood,
> 
> there are multiple modern democracies that just dennie that crimes against humanity committed in that countries passed actually happen, america it seems amongst them,
> 
> ...



What are you trying to say??? 
So, what do you think would have happened to your island, and a lot of Europe had the U.S. not gotten involved?

Let me ask you for proof of 4 other bombs and whatever the heck it was you were trying to say about suicides?


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> What are you trying to say???
> So, what do you think would have happened to your island, and a lot of Europe had the U.S. not gotten involved?
> 
> Let me ask you for proof of 4 other bombs and whatever the heck it was you were trying to say about suicides?


 itss rather debatable what would have happened to this island, we weren't in any danger of being invaded in the short term, the issue was the blockade starving us of resources.

if we had stuck it out till the russian invaded germany then we would have been fine.

its part of the american narrative they saved europe from the nazis, when really that was the russians.  its more true that they saved europe from the russians, well at least half of it


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> itss rather debatable what would have happened to this island, we weren't in any danger of being invaded in the short term, the issue was the blockade starving us of resources.
> 
> if we had stuck it out till the russian invaded germany then we would have been fine.
> 
> its part of the american narrative they saved europe from the nazis, when really that was the russians.  its more true that they saved europe from the russians, well at least half of it


Wow, just wow. 
What a small mind.


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Wow, just wow.
> What a small mind.


actual history doesn't agree with your holliwood america saved the world

to be honest i'd be more grateful if they hadn't let 10,000 of us die before they decided to help, by that point we were past the worst and could have stuck it out for another year or so till we were '' rescused by the russians.

do you know we have only just finished repaying the war aid you sent ? you may have helped but my god did you charge us for it


----------



## geezer (Nov 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Wow, just wow.
> What a small mind.


There. This is why we don’t discuss politics—outside of martial arts politics—on this forum. Let’s get back on topic guys!


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> And I guess Japanese planes did not bombs on the Hawaiian Islands either, right?


no im pretty certain they did, its also widely accepted that america was trying to provoke japan into an act of war, further more that they had broken the japanese codes and new an attack was interment and chose not to defend pearl harbour, apart from moving their aircraft carriers out of harms way


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> actual history doesn't agree with your holliwood america saved the world
> 
> to be honest i'd be more grateful if they hadn't let 10,000 of us die before they decided to help, by that point we were past the worst and could have stuck it out for another year or so till we were '' rescused by the russians.
> 
> do you know we have only just finished repaying the war aid you sent ? you may have helped but my god did you charge us for it


The last loan was Discharged in 2006. Let's do the math; 2006-1945 = 61 years. Again, Wow, just wow.


----------



## jobo (Nov 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The last loan was Discharged in 2006. Let's do the math; 2006-1945 = 61 years. Again, Wow, just wow.



yea 61 years to pay back the" help" and its maths


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 28, 2019)

*REMINDER TO ALL MT MEMBERS:*

Political discussion is not allowed, per MT guidelines. Please take it to an appropriate forum.

___________
*Gerry Seymour*
MartialTalk Moderator
@gpseymour


----------



## _Simon_ (Nov 29, 2019)

geezer said:


> There. This is why we don’t discuss politics—outside of martial arts politics—on this forum. Let’s get back on topic guys!


Yep! Okay, let's see here...

Why do Japanese arts use Japanese language...

I'm pegging maybe Koreans had something to do with it.....


----------



## Dong xiao hu (Nov 29, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Every capoeira school in which I trained uses a lot of Portuguese terminology, both for the techniques, and in discussing strategy and spirit in the practice.


Besides being a martial art Capoeira is considered a cultural art as well. While training Capoeira you will be exposed to other related Brazilian culture. Not to mention at this point you are expected to learn to speak some Portuguese. After all the songs are in Portuguese.

Sent from my moto g(6) (XT1925DL) using Tapatalk


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I hear you geezer.
> @hoshin1600, that may be an impression left by some in the more recent generations but it certainly is not the mainstream culture in America. You, like many others have gotten sucked into believing everything you hear/read from the "news" mediums you choose to listen to.
> 
> Honestly, that comment is very insulting.



i guess you all missed the part where i said my comment was "tongue in cheek".  which by definition means that you do not believe in what you are saying.  it was an attempt at making light of a previous and now forgotten comment. it was meant to be humorous, but it fell flat on people too serious for their own good.
and for the record i dont hear/ read the "news"  any news left or right, on any medium. i find it all absurd and gross.


----------



## Urban Trekker (Apr 21, 2021)

Good question.

Let's look at boxing.  It has roots in Greco-Roman times, but the techniques and the rules during those times have since been lost.

Boxing as we know it today originated in the UK.  Does this mean that those who train in boxing outside of the Anglosphere use English words to refer to boxing terminology?

Frankly, it doesn't appear that the British care about "owning" the martial art as other countries do about owning theirs.

I'm kind of curious as to why that is.


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## O'Malley (Apr 22, 2021)

Depends on the language and the term.

The English word "jab" is commonly used in other languages (at least the ones I know).

The French use the English term "uppercut" while the Italian use the native term "montante".

Both ditched "hook" and use native terms ("crochet" and "gancio").

In aikido, I find that Japanese terms provide a common reference for techniques and concepts, which helps with cross-language communication.


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## Saheim (Apr 25, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> You have not been around a lot of Wing Chun folk then, talk to them about any of the forms; first the names used will be Cantonese (Siu Nin Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Ji, Muk Yan Jong.) and every single movement in each of the forms is only referred to in the Cantonese.
> 
> Seung Guan Sau
> Seung Tan Sau
> ...



Yea, I train in WC and do not even know the English word for half our techniques.  Some of them, sure- slapping hand, grabbing hand but most of them I only know by their Cantonese names.

It is weird tho. I always wonder if there is a boxing school, in Asia somewhere,  where they try to speak as much English as they can...... and do so as poorly as I  pronounce things in Cantonese


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## KenpoMaster805 (Apr 25, 2021)

Japanese used Japanese term in a traditional okinawan like shotokan goyu ryu and other japanese arts. when i was taking shotokan we used japanese term to bad i only went to high orange.

When i was taekwondo we used korean term even counting in korean and i only went to yellow


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2021)

skribs said:


> While that may be true, any time I've seen someone discussing Wing Chun, they use English terms (or the video is shot entirely in Cantonese and intended for people who speak Cantonese).



Not been my experience. Virtually all the Wing Chun people I know, and most are American, use the Cantonese terminology; Taan Sau, Fuk Sau, Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma, etc.


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## Steve (Apr 25, 2021)

Id say for the same reason we use French terms when cooking.  Mirepoix is a shorthand for onions, carrots, and celery.  Course, you sub bell pepper for carrots, and you have the holy trinity of Cajun cuisine... which borrows heavily from French roots.  Same technique, but the native term is more specific.  Made a leek and potato soup tonight, using the same technique as above, but it was closer to a German suppengrun...except instead of carrots, leeks, and celery root, I used leeks, fennel root, and yellow onion.

same technique, though.  Point is, if I say mirepoix, you know it’s onion, carrot, and celery.  If it’s not those exact veggies, it’s not mirepoix.  Though if you and I both know what a mirepoix is, I can say, “like mirepoix, but with x instead of y.”  And we are both on the same page.  You could duplicate what I did no problem.  

personally, I don’t have a problem with vocabulary.  I do have issues with concerns about dilution of culture and other xenophobic acts.  By Americans, brazilians, japanese or anyone else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> Depends on the language and the term.
> 
> The English word "jab" is commonly used in other languages (at least the ones I know).
> 
> ...


Yeah. I've heard folks argue that using native-language terms makes learning easier. But I haven't found that students remember the term "pivot takedown" any faster than folks in other styles learn the term "shiho nage". It's even worse with some of our longer technique names ("two-hand grip from the rear, throw to the side", anyone?). New terms are confusing. Sometimes they are easier to learn and remember if they are in the native language ("let sweep" vs "osoto gari"), but that's not always the case.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> Id say for the same reason we use French terms when cooking.  Mirepoix is a shorthand for onions, carrots, and celery.  Course, you sub bell pepper for carrots, and you have the holy trinity of Cajun cuisine... which borrows heavily from French roots.  Same technique, but the native term is more specific.  Made a leek and potato soup tonight, using the same technique as above, but it was closer to a German suppengrun...except instead of carrots, leeks, and celery root, I used leeks, fennel root, and yellow onion.
> 
> same technique, though.  Point is, if I say mirepoix, you know it’s onion, carrot, and celery.  If it’s not those exact veggies, it’s not mirepoix.  Though if you and I both know what a mirepoix is, I can say, “like mirepoix, but with x instead of y.”  And we are both on the same page.  You could duplicate what I did no problem.
> 
> personally, I don’t have a problem with vocabulary.  I do have issues with concerns about dilution of culture and other xenophobic acts.  By Americans, brazilians, japanese or anyone else.


Agreed. And if a second term evolved in English for the same mix ("French mix", for instance), it would serve just as well. Like, literally just as well, since it carries no more information than mirepoix until you know what it means.


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. And if a second term evolved in English for the same mix ("French mix", for instance), it would serve just as well. Like, literally just as well, since it carries no more information than mirepoix until you know what it means.


Language is a funny thing.  I love how weird it is, and always have.  We haven't even touched on context, where something like a roux can be a mixture of butter (or oil) and flour, and you cook it for a few minutes to make a white gravy for chicken fried steak, or 15 minutes or more until it gets dark and nutty for a gumbo.


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## Unkogami (Sep 12, 2021)

jobo said:


> because once your using a foreign word as part of your everyday language,  your brain no longer considers it as foreign,  it's just english ...


That is not exactly true.


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## Gyakuto (Sep 13, 2021)

Part of learning any discipline is using the vernacular/terminology/jargon. It’s often a short hand for example “That cut requires kime’ rather than, “ensure you stop the blade at the correct height and tighten your muscles momentarily to impart the force of the blade into the target.” or “mushin” rather than “maintain a placid mind to avoid the exchange becoming a melee such that one can react to all external cues however small”. It also suggests an amount of _study_ that using English perhaps doesn’t. In my own field I could say “Incise with the scalpel laterally to the angle of Lewis” rather than “make your cut a bit to the side of the ridge on the upper part of the breast bone”. I encouraged the use of technical terminology with my students even in everyday life to get them used to it and sounding professional and precise.

However, I have a friend who has language difficulties and uses English rather than Japanese. I feel his students suffer as a consequence when they meet trainees from other dojo.


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## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

I personally like the crazy names for some BJJ moves. There’s almost always some great story behind it. I especially like 10th Planet’s insane terminology.


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## jmf552 (Sep 13, 2021)

Two things I would say:

If you know the Japanese you can work out anywhere. I worked out in a Karate' dojo in Italy once. I did not know Italian, but I knew the moves they were calling in Japanese. 
There are some terms in Japanese that have a deeper meaning than the English translation. I can understand "mushin" with the one word. I takes a paragraph to understand it in English.


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