# Bad instructor. What to do????



## Dadrockholiday (Oct 17, 2018)

Hi from a newbie!

My son has just attained his Shodan rank at the age of 13 after 6 years or training. He studies Shotokan Karate. He has been with his present club for 2 1/2 years and his instructors are very well thought of in the community. 

Last night, another senior grade (but not an instructor at the club) took the class as the normal instructor was away. 

It was my son's first night as a black-belt and he was really looking forward to it.

The issue is that the instructor continually picked on my son all night. He asked him to perform a kata in front of the class, which was great, however, when he finished (he did it really well by the way) he told him that he had been stepping incorrectly throughout the entire routine and performing it all wrong!

He had only graded with this kata (under an 8th Dan Jananese Sensie) two days before. He then went on to tell him he was not doing it correctly and he was being 'dangerous'. 

He also completely lost his cool with some very junior members of the club, shouting at them and telling them they were not paying attention! This never happens with the regular instructor. The kids looked completely deflated. 

I was an inch away from telling my son to 'bow-out' and simply taking him home. 

I know the guy is wrong, but the question is what was his motivation to act that way? Is he hungry for 'power' or is there something else to it? He has taken the class a couple of times before and I have noticed his 'lack of composure and patience'. 

Do I mention it to the actual sensie in order that he does not let him train the class again, or do I just keep my mouth shut? 

My son also suffers with auditory processing disorder, which makes it difficult for him to hear with any background noise. 

The instructor has a foreign accent and is (at times) quite hard to understand. 

Just as a bit of background, most of the other adult students also had a look of disappointment on their faces when he stepped up to instruct. 

Just don't know what to do for the best. I was the only parent there and so I couldn't really discuss it. Am I making a fuss over nothing? It completely ruined his evening and did nothing to teach the lower grades any respect.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 17, 2018)

I'm sorry to hear this and I feel bad for your son. I would start by telling your son that this is a lesson on life.  Some people are just jerks, even karate instructors.
Second, I would not hesitate to have a sit down with the school owner ( son not included )  and tell him how much you and your son enjoy being there but that he will not be attending a single class run by sensei X again and explain why in detail.
Now for adult students I would say suck it up and just train. But for kids and young teens the environment is super important.  I don't put up with that crap.  If you come to class again with that instructor teaching the class walk out and take your kid out for ice cream instead.  Your son also needs to know your behind him and willing to support him, most importantly in difficult situations.


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## JR 137 (Oct 17, 2018)

I don’t have much more to add than what Hoshin 1600 said. Speak to the chief instructor about it privately. Call and make an appointment. Stay clam and professional during the conversation.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

Perhaps he is a bad instructor or perhaps the regular instructor is too slack, it could be either.
For many people, even after training 6 years a 13 year old black belt is suspect. Many places don't promote children to that grade until they are 18 at least, others will give it only as a junior grade with the student being expected to re-grade as an adult. For others children being given black belts is a sign of a McDojo, it's something that causes much debate in martial arts.  Many places mine included do not train adults and children together either, we don't find it works for either section. I'm not saying that this is the case, just pointing out some warning points.



Dadrockholiday said:


> The issue is that the instructor continually picked on my son all night. He asked him to perform a kata in front of the class, which was great, however, when he finished (he did it really well by the way) he told him that he had been stepping incorrectly throughout the entire routine and performing it all wrong!
> 
> He had only graded with this kata (under an 8th Dan Jananese Sensie) two days before. He then went on to tell him he was not doing it correctly and he was being 'dangerous'.




What if the guest instructor was correct? it's a thought you should have, just because he has been graded by an 8th Dan ( always question that too, don't take it as a total truth that an 8th Dan is actually better than everyone else, he could be but take it all with a pinch of salt) from the same organisation doesn't mean it's correct by style standards just correct against organisation standards. Have you watched various Shotokan people outside your organisation perform this kata and would you have the experience to know the difference or do you just know what the instructor does?




Dadrockholiday said:


> He also completely lost his cool with some very junior members of the club, shouting at them and telling them they were not paying attention! This never happens with the regular instructor. The kids looked completely deflated.



Were they paying attention or taking the mickey because he wasn't their usual instructor? 


I know what I've written looks as if I'm sticking up for the guest instructor, I'm not I'm hoping your will question everything rather than just assume everything is fine when the usual instructor is there. I have the horrible fear that children who are given black belts think they can defend themselves but when shown they can't are either hurt or terribly upset.  Talk to the chief instructor and see how that goes. Sometimes someone coming in can shake up the normal dynamic of a class, this isn't always a bad thing. Ask your chief instructor why the guest instructor said the kata was wrong, I'm thinking he will say it's correct as they teach it which isn't the same as correct for Shotokan as a whole. So both instructors will be right.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2018)

Dadrockholiday said:


> My son also suffers with auditory processing disorder, which makes it difficult for him to hear with any background noise.


This is always something the instructor should know, so that communications can be altered in a way that helps the student.  If I was teaching your son and I didn't know this, then I wouldn't automatically assume that he has an auditory processing disorder.  It's not the first thing that comes to mind when "someone doesn't listen" to what I'm saying.  The first thing that comes to mind is that "someone doesn't listen".

Do what hoshin stated about there being jerks in the world.  teach your son how to handle such situations.

Without knowing more about the instructor I can't say what his reasoning is for his method of teaching.  There are some benefits to aggressive teaching and pointing out that you are doing the smallest things "wrong."




But sometimes
Sometimes a soft voice will cut just as deep if not deep. But it does so without the "tearing down." Not every instructor knows when to switch gears and not every instructor has the ability to do so.





When you think of martial arts instructors.  There is usually no class that is taught on how to be a good instructor.   Teacher go to college to learn how to be good teachers.  Most instructors don't get any type of formal training where they learn how to be instructors.  They are just asked to take over the class and are never taught the finer points until a parent like you comes up and brings it to the head instructor's attention that a"finer point" lesson may be needed.


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## Buka (Oct 17, 2018)

Welcome to MartialTalk, DadRock, hope you enjoy it.

Hoshin said it all in his post. That's really good advice.

Sorry to hear what happened. Teaching Martial Arts isn't easy, neither is running a dojo. Sometimes you need someone to teach for one reason or another. But that's no excuse for what you say took place. Do you train as well?

As an aside, I'll tell you something. I had a less than honorable instructor when I started, and that's putting it mildly. But the good that came out of that was it fueled me to teach Martial Arts to make up for what I started with. I've been at it ever since, some forty five years now. 

Besides knowing how to teach in general, and how to teach the material in your particular Art, a teacher has to inspire, has to motivate, and has to make a student, any student of any rank, want to run back the next night to train again even harder.

What really ticks me off is that it was your son's first class wearing a Black Belt. That sucks. You don't get that night back again. But, fortunately, there's a whole bootload of nights in front of him. I hope he sticks it out. I hope this all works out.

As an instructor, I want to know what's going on when I'm not there. By all means go talk to the boss.

How's your boy taking all this?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps he is a bad instructor or perhaps the regular instructor is too slack, it could be either.


I was thinking the same thing too.  It's just difficult to say without knowing his reasoning for being "tough"

I'm the type of instructor that will pick on the small thing simply because it's the small things that will get you jacked up in a fight.  A small thing can be the difference between getting hit or losing balance and as a result I will come off as if "other people are stupid" and I explain things as if "other people are stupid."   The only way that stops me from doing this is if I see it done correctly by the student, or if the student corrects his or her own mistakes or ackknowledges it.

I'm not mean and I don't think people are stupid, but for me it's a big deal because I want student to be safe if the time comes.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Most instructors don't get any type of formal training where they learn how to be instructors.




Most organisations that clubs and instructors belong to here don't just provide insurance etc but also instructor training courses so we are very lucky.



JowGaWolf said:


> but for me it's a big deal because I want student to be safe if the time comes.




Exactly, that's my big worry. I remember someone posting on here a while back that he'd just got two new students in, young... under teenage years, who had been given black belts at their previous place but when one had been beaten up by an older child while playing in a park the parents realised that the martial arts training had been useless so they changed to somewhere where the training was harder, less belts but effective. I haven't had that myself but that post has always stuck in my mind.

An instructor friend of mine never asks what style you do, he just has one question 'can you fight?'.


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## JR 137 (Oct 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was thinking the same thing too.  It's just difficult to say without knowing his reasoning for being "tough"
> 
> I'm the type of instructor that will pick on the small thing simply because it's the small things that will get you jacked up in a fight.  A small thing can be the difference between getting hit or losing balance and as a result I will come off as if "other people are stupid" and I explain things as if "other people are stupid."   The only way that stops me from doing this is if I see it done correctly by the student, or if the student corrects his or her own mistakes or ackknowledges it.
> 
> I'm not mean and I don't think people are stupid, but for me it's a big deal because I want student to be safe if the time comes.





Tez3 said:


> Most organisations that clubs and instructors belong to here don't just provide insurance etc but also instructor training courses so we are very lucky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with both of you. However, there’s a way to go about correcting mistakes, small and large.

Let’s assume the instructor in question was completely correct in every single technique he was addressing. That doesn’t give him free reign to belittle, lose patience, etc. If the students were all wrong, chances are pretty good that they were doing what they were taught. Who’s shoulders does that fall on? The teacher who taught them. Giving students a hard time about making the mistakes they were taught is absurd. And there’s a way to go about making corrections, especially with kids. 

I’m not opposed to the drill Sargent methods. In fact I think we need more of that in our society, especially with the kids. But there’s a way to do it without crossing the line. Know your audience IMO.

Edit: I’m not defending nor condoning what the instructor did. I wasn’t there.


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## skribs (Oct 17, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Now for adult students I would say suck it up and just train. But for kids and young teens the environment is super important. I don't put up with that crap. If you come to class again with that instructor teaching the class walk out and take your kid out for ice cream instead. Your son also needs to know your behind him and willing to support him, most importantly in difficult situations.



I don't think there's an upper age limit where you should start taking abuse.


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## skribs (Oct 17, 2018)

I'm pretty sure when I first started teaching, there were several students that left my school because of me, or potential new students that didn't come back because of me.  I've gotten a lot of guidance from my Master about how to encourage kids to continue training as opposed to expect them to get everything right out of the gate.

So I would definitely talk the owner/master/normal instructor and let them know the issues with this guy and see if they can work on them with him.  And if his attitude is one that he won't work on his issues, then I would say I wouldn't let my kid take a class with him.


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## CB Jones (Oct 17, 2018)

Just my 2 cents.

My son is also 13 years old and a black belt.  He doesn’t teach by himself but does assist a lot with the teaching of the beginner and intermediate classes.

When he has problems with a student or another instructor.....I tell him to figure out how to handle it...:I might give him advice on how he needs to handle it, but it’s up to him to take that advice and handle it himself.  I don’t go talk to his instructor...I leave that up to him.  This is a good place to learn conflict resolution.

I would suggest you advise him to go to his instructor and/or the guest instructor and work this out himself.


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## mrt2 (Oct 17, 2018)

I agree with others who say OP should have a private conversation with the head instructor about what happened.  

Without more information, it is hard to know for sure what is going on.  Is this guest instructor just more of a hard *** than the head instructor?  Does he come from a different school, and hence have a different take on kata than the head instructor?  Does he have a problem with 13 year old black belts? Or is he just an a$$hole?  Either way, the head instructor should know and clear up any misunderstanding.

As for your boy, I would suggest OP have a conversation with him.  This is sometimes part of life.  Ideally, nobody should have to deal with abusive teachers or coaches, but sometimes you just have to harden up and deal with it.  I know this is the boy's first class as a black belt, but there will be many others.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That doesn’t give him free reign to belittle, lose patience, etc. I




IF he in fact did. I have seen many times people having big differences of opinion about how a person spoke to others. I've heard people tell others not to shout when they weren't and said people have spoken harshly when they didn't. It's very dependent on the perception and experience of the person listening. One person's sterner instructor is another person's drill sergeant. 


If the permanent instructor is softly spoken, doesn't admonish the children and is generally relaxed another instructor who speaks louder ( often to be heard in a class) and is more rigorous in teaching could easily appear to be more 'abusive' than the other instructor. Often parents who are obviously protective of their children will take what has been said as being belittling etc when it's really not. I've seen this many times. I'm not saying this is the case here but we have to be careful about make snap judgements against the visiting instructor when we weren't there.


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## JR 137 (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> IF he in fact did. I have seen many times people having big differences of opinion about how a person spoke to others. I've heard people tell others not to shout when they weren't and said people have spoken harshly when they didn't. It's very dependent on the perception and experience of the person listening. One person's sterner instructor is another person's drill sergeant.
> 
> 
> If the permanent instructor is softly spoken, doesn't admonish the children and is generally relaxed another instructor who speaks louder ( often to be heard in a class) and is more rigorous in teaching could easily appear to be more 'abusive' than the other instructor. Often parents who are obviously protective of their children will take what has been said as being belittling etc when it's really not. I've seen this many times. I'm not saying this is the case here but we have to be careful about make snap judgements against the visiting instructor when we weren't there.


Absolutely. We can’t defend him nor condemn him, as we weren’t there.

Regardless of all of that, the OP and his child obviously aren’t happy. A private meeting with the head guy is in order IMO. It’s the head guy’s job to address it (or not) however he sees fit. Then the OP can accept the head guy’s decision or can look for another place.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Regardless of all of that, the OP and his child obviously aren’t happy.




Absolutely (to be honest though I wouldn't be happy if my son was only 13 and was given a black belt but that's just me.)


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## FriedRice (Oct 17, 2018)

Dadrockholiday said:


> Hi from a newbie!
> 
> My son has just attained his Shodan rank at the age of 13 after 6 years or training.



Earning a Black Belt at age 13 should be the main concern.


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## mrt2 (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely (to be honest *though I wouldn't be happy if my son was only 13 and was given a black belt but that's just me*.)


That is a philosophical issue.  I am not wild about it either, but I accept it as part of the martial arts landscape.  Relatively speaking, child black belts are more skilled than colored belts.  While I was warming up for class yesterday, I was watching a 1st Dan girl absolutely dominate a purple belt boy.   Both kids were about 10, or at most 11 years old.


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## mrt2 (Oct 17, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Earning a Black Belt at age 13 should be the main concern.


It is OK.  Junior black belts are a thing now.  As long as the school maintains its standards for adults, I don't see a problem with it.  Sort of inevitable, really, that if a school starts kids out as young as 6 or 7, by the time they turn 13, some of them will be black belts.


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## Headhunter (Oct 17, 2018)

So basically your upset because someone gave your kid advice on how to improve...did you believe he was perfect and because he's a black belt he knows everything?

Also he shouted at kids misbehaving...well so he should itll teach them to pay attention.

Ive read nothing that sounds like a bad instructor. Are you its him.thats the problem?


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## FriedRice (Oct 17, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> It is OK.  Junior black belts are a thing now.  As long as the school maintains its standards for adults, I don't see a problem with it.  Sort of inevitable, really, that if a school starts kids out as young as 6 or 7, by the time they turn 13, some of them will be black belts.



I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example.  We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).

Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier. Like if a new guy just walked off the streets to try it out, average adult in good shape.....will get tapped out every 60-120 seconds if these kids wanted to.


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## mrt2 (Oct 17, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example.  We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).
> 
> Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier.


I am back doing TKD since March, so I am getting a sense of the range of skill levels among both children and adults.  Yes, there are children that train as hard, or harder than adults.  And others that don't.  The sort of kid you are talking about is more the exception than the rule, but they are out there.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I agree with both of you. However, there’s a way to go about correcting mistakes, small and large.
> 
> Let’s assume the instructor in question was completely correct in every single technique he was addressing. That doesn’t give him free reign to belittle, lose patience, etc. If the students were all wrong, chances are pretty good that they were doing what they were taught. Who’s shoulders does that fall on? The teacher who taught them. Giving students a hard time about making the mistakes they were taught is absurd. And there’s a way to go about making corrections, especially with kids.
> 
> ...


I agree.  Even though some student may have an EGO vs Reality moment with me, I've never gotten any bad feedback from parents nor students beyond a few frustrated groans and signs.  Everyone just pushes that feeling aside and get back to the business of training.  Parents always wanted me to train their kids because of my focus on making sure they got things correct. 

Now that I think of it, I'm more flexible with getting the forms incorrect that the application of the technique.  My own forms look dirty and not fine tuned and that's because I do forms as if I'm fighting.  I often move off center even though it's not in the form.


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## FriedRice (Oct 17, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I am back doing TKD since March, so I am getting a sense of the range of skill levels among both children and adults.  Yes, there are children that train as hard, or harder than adults.  And others that don't.  The sort of kid you are talking about is more the exception than the rule, but they are out there.



The one that I mentioned, who's medals & trophies can fill up 2000 sq/ft is the exception, no doubt and not the rule. But I would say that in a BJJ gym, the average kid that sticks with it until age 16 to get his Blue belt is slightly common.

The ones in the competition team at age 13-15 can usually beat most to all of the adult White belts....yet we still only let them rank Blue at 16. So I guess my point being, a Black belt in anything should be able to put a beatdown on most Average Joes, command respect, fear, etc. I could be wrong.


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## CB Jones (Oct 17, 2018)

The way I look at it is....my son is the black belt, I must let him be the black belt.  

For him to be respected by students and other instructors....he has to be the one handling problems and/or disagreements ......not his dad.

I give him advice in private but at the dojo I sit back and let him handle things.


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## Saheim (Oct 17, 2018)

Most of what needs saying has already been said.

I'd just add - IF you decide that you unhappy with the way the instructor is speaking to your son AND IF you are going to have a discussion with the chief instructor, I would be sure to approach it from a 'do not want to train on his nights, just need clarity on when they are' angle.  He will probably want to know more but, that way, you're not asking him to change his school just honestly stating there are things about it you are uncomfortable with and won't be a part of.  Big difference.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps he is a bad instructor or perhaps the regular instructor is too slack, it could be either.
> For many people, even after training 6 years a 13 year old black belt is suspect. Many places don't promote children to that grade until they are 18 at least, others will give it only as a junior grade with the student being expected to re-grade as an adult. For others children being given black belts is a sign of a McDojo, it's something that causes much debate in martial arts.  Many places mine included do not train adults and children together either, we don't find it works for either section. I'm not saying that this is the case, just pointing out some warning points.
> 
> 
> ...


Tez makes a good point. Don't let the bad behavior (losing his cool, etc.) make you miss a chance to ask yourself some good questions. His methods might not be good, but he might still be right about some points. A good idea on that aspect would be to ask the chief instructor about those specific comments.

On the other aspect, you should definitely have a talk with the chief instructor. If this guy's upsetting students, he probably isn't upholding the same relationship the CI is creating, and that's something he needs to know about. Don't assume anyone else will have that discussion - it's likely they're thinking that, too.

And if the behavior was as bad as you say, you should feel free to not have your son attend any classes taught by that instructor.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example.  We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).
> 
> Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier. Like if a new guy just walked off the streets to try it out, average adult in good shape.....will get tapped out every 60-120 seconds if these kids wanted to.


So?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> The one that I mentioned, who's medals & trophies can fill up 2000 sq/ft is the exception, no doubt and not the rule. But I would say that in a BJJ gym, the average kid that sticks with it until age 16 to get his Blue belt is slightly common.
> 
> The ones in the competition team at age 13-15 can usually beat most to all of the adult White belts....yet we still only let them rank Blue at 16. So I guess my point being, a Black belt in anything should be able to put a beatdown on most Average Joes, command respect, fear, etc. I could be wrong.


The rank only means what a given group decides it should mean. You're wanting them to apply your standard. Why?


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## Headhunter (Oct 17, 2018)

Okay so rerewd this now I'm home and I still agree with what I said. You said he was picking on him all night. Was he picking on him or critiquing him. Picking on him is making fun of him. Telling someone a mistake they're making is not picking on them. You said they did it well....well what's your rank do you know more than an experienced black belt. Your kid probably was doing it wrong. Get over it he got told he was doing it wrong. If your kid was upset he needs to suck it up frankly and take criticism better because if he thinks he's perfect already then he's in for a rude awakening.

It was his first night as a Black belt and looking forward to it? So you mean he was thinking he'd walk around like the big dog in the kennel with his new black belt looking cool and instead he got told he was doing stuff wrong. I have absolutely 0 doubt the kid was doing stuff wrong. There's absolutely no way his form was perfect because no ones is especially a 13 year olds. 

He upset some kids because he shouted at them for misbehaving well if he didn't shout they'd continue to mess around and spoil the class for the ones who want to train.

To sum it up really you're upset that your kid got a correction and he shouted at people misbehaving....that sounds like a great instructor to me


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

Osu, Dadrockholiday, There are many differing opinions on this subject.   If we take the black belt away and ask if the instructor's behaviour would be acceptable, you will probably have as many differing opinions because in reality the question, to me, is more from a parental perspective.   In an adult/child relationship, the adult should ALWAYS remember the nature of the relationship and the maturity of the child he or she is addressing.  

What clouds the issue is that your 13 year old son has a 'black belt'.  This is also a contentious issue with many people because different schools have different schools of thought regarding the awarding of this level to a minor.  Being a black belt means different things depending on where you come from (even though it shouldn't).  The reality is, there is no unified standard that is generally accepted by everyone.  

Speaking as a parent and having seen my own child go through a difficult situation with an adult, I would use my judgement as a parent to determine what I should do.   In all instances I want to give my child the best opportunity to resolve this issue on their own but with the understanding that I am also their to guide them if they need it.   You can speak with the chief instructor to see if this is normal behaviour from the new instructor and I expect if the chief instructor cares about his school he will invigilate the next few classes but if nothing changes from the new instructors behaviour, you may have to make up your own mind if this 'new norm' is something you and your family are willing to adjust to.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> You can speak with the chief instructor to see if this is normal behaviour from the new instructor




The OP did say though that this wasn't at instructor at the school. he didn't say though what rank this guest instructor was, he may outrank the chief instructor which could prove awkward as presumably he would be more experienced and knowledgeable.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The OP did say though that this wasn't at instructor at the school. he didn't say though what rank this guest instructor was, he may outrank the chief instructor which could prove awkward as presumably he would be more experienced and knowledgeable.


How would the rank of the instructors make for an awkward conversation?


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## Headhunter (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, Dadrockholiday, There are many differing opinions on this subject.   If we take the black belt away and ask if the instructor's behaviour would be acceptable, you will probably have as many differing opinions because in reality the question, to me, is more from a parental perspective.   In an adult/child relationship, the adult should ALWAYS remember the nature of the relationship and the maturity of the child he or she is addressing.
> 
> What clouds the issue is that your 13 year old son has a 'black belt'.  This is also a contentious issue with many people because different schools have different schools of thought regarding the awarding of this level to a minor.  Being a black belt means different things depending on where you come from (even though it shouldn't).  The reality is, there is no unified standard that is generally accepted by everyone.
> 
> Speaking as a parent and having seen my own child go through a difficult situation with an adult, I would use my judgement as a parent to determine what I should do.   In all instances I want to give my child the best opportunity to resolve this issue on their own but with the understanding that I am also their to guide them if they need it.   You can speak with the chief instructor to see if this is normal behaviour from the new instructor and I expect if the chief instructor cares about his school he will invigilate the next few classes but if nothing changes from the new instructors behaviour, you may have to make up your own mind if this 'new norm' is something you and your family are willing to adjust to.


To me as a parent if my kid came crying to me saying the mean instructor criticised his kata and shouted at badly behaved students I'd them to get back on there and deal with it. There's nothing in that post that would concern me. I'm paying for my child to both learn martial arts and to learn respect so why would I be angry when an instructor is doing both those things


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> To me as a parent if my kid came crying to me saying the mean instructor criticised his kata and shouted at badly behaved students I'd them to get back on there and deal with it. There's nothing in that post that would concern me. I'm paying for my child to both learn martial arts and to learn respect so why would I be angry when an instructor is doing both those things


Ok if that is your parenting style, that is certainly your choice.   I don’t tell people how to parent their child.  I may offer a suggestion on how to deal with a situation but the choice is ultimately theirs if they want to listen.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2018)

I have known instructors like that. And there are two ways of dealing with it.

Good training is serious business they will put up with a duchebag if his skills are what they want.

Training is a hobby and they just don't do training with that sort of person. But then they don't need that sort of top level instruction.

I lean towards hobby. But will put up with a duchebag if I have to from time to time.

Either way it should be an intellectual decision. Not an emotional one.


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## pgsmith (Oct 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> To me as a parent if my kid came crying to me saying the mean instructor criticised his kata and shouted at badly behaved students I'd them to get back on there and deal with it. There's nothing in that post that would concern me. I'm paying for my child to both learn martial arts and to learn respect so why would I be angry when an instructor is doing both those things



Prove that he was teaching those things rather than simply bullying an easily available target?
 Since we weren't there, your words are as empty as anyone else's.However, since the OP is the one paying for the lessons that his son is attending, he has a much greater stake in what he perceives as proper training
.
  In my opinion, there is very little need for any sort of militant approach that many of today's karate schools employ. Just because someone thinks that sort of bullying is necessary doesn't make it so. The only reason it is done in the military is that it creates a unity within the squad through shared misery. This unity is necessary for a unit facing combat where your life depends upon your squad mate's reactions. It is NOT necessary in a neighborhood karate school that teaches children.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> How would the rank of the instructors make for an awkward conversation?



Because you get some top instructors who won't be told off by lesser ranks.


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## Headhunter (Oct 17, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> Prove that he was teaching those things rather than simply bullying an easily available target?
> Since we weren't there, your words are as empty as anyone else's.However, since the OP is the one paying for the lessons that his son is attending, he has a much greater stake in what he perceives as proper training
> .
> In my opinion, there is very little need for any sort of militant approach that many of today's karate schools employ. Just because someone thinks that sort of bullying is necessary doesn't make it so. The only reason it is done in the military is that it creates a unity within the squad through shared misery. This unity is necessary for a unit facing combat where your life depends upon your squad mate's reactions. It is NOT necessary in a neighborhood karate school that teaches children.


Again from what's been said I see no bullying. I see an instructor correcting mistakes a kid is making and telling off kids who are misbehaving. If he wants to pull his kid out that's his choice but again from what I've read I've seen nothing wrong with what that instructor did


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because you get some top instructors who won't be told off by lesser ranks.


Many ways to deal with a situation.  Telling off a senior rank may not be the best way.  I favour a more diplomatic approach in this type of situation.  It is always good policy to be professional with whomever you deal with but that is my approach.  I acknowledge that not everyone looks at it that way..


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## Buka (Oct 17, 2018)

An observation.

There are some really bad Instructors in our fields. And bad in a lot of different ways. I think what we tend to do when we read something like the OP is to picture the situation as it would be in our own school.

But I'm still waiting on the OP to answer if he himself trains.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> How would the rank of the instructors make for an awkward conversation?



Well, when you have a much senior instructor coming to the class of a lower ranked instructor and telling students they are doing techniques incorrectly which prompts a parent to complain to the class instructor, there is going to have to be an awkward conversation between the class instructor and the parent, then the class instructor is going to have to explain to the more senior instructor that he's been complained about ( he could not tell him of course but that would make for future awkwardness too).

Think military ranks, a colonel comes in to take a class of civvy kids, usually a captain takes it. Colonel tells kids they are doing it all wrong, parent complains to captain and captain has to tell the colonel the parent complained about the colonel. He also has to explain to parent either that he, the captain's, teaching is wrong or he has to tell parent the colonel doesn't know what he's talking about. Interesting.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Many ways to deal with a situation.  Telling off a senior rank may not be the best way.  I favour a more diplomatic approach in this type of situation.  It is always good policy to be professional with whomever you deal with but that is my approach.  I acknowledge that not everyone looks at it that way..



Luckily for me I am nobody. I don't have any real investment in my martial arts and can say what I want to who I want. If super coach hates me I don't care.

But say an upcoming fighter in a team. An instructor making a living from a system. Or even a martial artist that has that social standing. May have to think of the consequences a lot more before he can speak up.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Well, when you have a much senior instructor coming to the class of a lower ranked instructor and telling students they are doing techniques incorrectly which prompts a parent to complain to the class instructor, there is going to have to be an awkward conversation between the class instructor and the parent, then the class instructor is going to have to explain to the more senior instructor that he's been complained about ( he could not tell him of course but that would make for future awkwardness too).
> 
> Think military ranks, a colonel comes in to take a class of civvy kids, usually a captain takes it. Colonel tells kids they are doing it all wrong, parent complains to captain and captain has to tell the colonel the parent complained about the colonel. He also has to explain to parent either that he, the captain's, teaching is wrong or he has to tell parent the colonel doesn't know what he's talking about. Interesting.


I appreciate that it can potentially lead to an awkward discussion but there are ways to mitigate the awkwardness.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Luckily for me I am nobody. I don't have any real investment in my martial arts and can say what I want to who I want. If super coach hates me I don't care.
> 
> But say an upcoming fighter in a team. An instructor making a living from a system. Or even a martial artist that has that social standing. May have to think of the consequences a lot more before he can speak up.


I am not advocating telling the senior rank off.  That is never the best solution to tell your superior off if you want to remain in the organization.  There are more diplomatic ways to regulate the situation.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I appreciate that it can potentially lead to an awkward discussion but there are ways to mitigate the awkwardness.



it's not awkwardness as in a social faux pas but the awkwardness where people are paying money for instruction and one of those instructors is clearly wrong. If it's the senior instructor he should be told, no? If it's the class instructor then the class will have to be retaught.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example.  We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).
> 
> Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier. Like if a new guy just walked off the streets to try it out, average adult in good shape.....will get tapped out every 60-120 seconds if these kids wanted to.


I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools.  You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.

This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent.  As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.





I don't know about the any where else but in the US, I think parents try to protect their child too much.  My opinion is that it's better for a child to experience getting the wind knocked out of them, just so they know how to deal with it.


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## JR 137 (Oct 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools.  You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.
> 
> This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent.  As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.
> 
> ...


What’s the gear for? So if anyone actually does get hurt, in court the owner can say and show he did everything he reasonably could to protect the student. He’ll show mandated safety gear and argue inherent risk rather than negligence or whatever legal term it would be. That’s realistically the only reason for it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> What’s the gear for? So if anyone actually does get hurt, in court the owner can say and show he did everything he reasonably could to protect the student. He’ll show mandated safety gear and argue inherent risk rather than negligence or whatever legal term it would be. That’s realistically the only reason for it.


Personally I think they do it to calm the parent's minds.  As soft as those kids are hitting and kick, they are more likely to get injured from using bad fist structure and bad technique.


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## JR 137 (Oct 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Personally I think they do it to calm the parent's minds.  As soft as those kids are hitting and kick, they are more likely to get injured from using bad fist structure and bad technique.


Good call. There’s a young female student about 12 years old that sticks out in mind now that you mention it. She punches with an open fist, as in her fist isn’t fully closed. If she didn’t have gloves on, her hands would be hurting.

So during sparring I tell her to hit me. She’s does this tapping thing, and I say “ok now really hit me.” It forces her to close her hands properly and actually hit. I give her a bunch of free shots, some of them she thinks she got in on her own. I figure if I’m getting stuck sparring with her, we both might as well get something out of it - she gets to practice actually hitting, and I get a little bit of conditioning from being hit repeatedly. I try to give her my ribs and stomach as a target so she can tee off on them. It’s not much for me, but at least it’s something.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Again from what's been said I see no bullying. I see an instructor correcting mistakes a kid is making and telling off kids who are misbehaving. If he wants to pull his kid out that's his choice but again from what I've read I've seen nothing wrong with what that instructor did


Can you not read in the OP that it might, in fact, have been bullying? It sounds to me like you're reading it specifically to see if there's a way it might not be. I agree with doing that, but you have to read for the other possibility, as well. From what I read there, either are possibilities given no more information. It's possible the OP overreacted - we've all done that at times. It's also possible the OP's take of the situation is understated.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2018)

Dadrockholiday said:


> Hi from a newbie!
> 
> My son has just attained his Shodan rank at the age of 13 after 6 years or training. He studies Shotokan Karate. He has been with his present club for 2 1/2 years and his instructors are very well thought of in the community.
> 
> ...



It is not always good and healthy to take up for our kids. Especially a young teenager that just attained their black belt. I commend and appreciate you for reaching out to this forum, welcome. As parent I am pretty sure you watch your kid the most when working out and are biased to their performance. It is natural. A big, big part of most traditional Martial Arts is the Do or Way. It is the emotional element. Balance or Ying-Yang is also a big, big part of most TMA. My Grand Master says it best when he says "when a relationship is all bad it is bad, when a relationship is all good it is bad. It is through the balance, pleasure, and adversity of both that we find happiness. So maybe there is a teaching moment for both you and your son here. Help him handle the adversity without it defining him in a negative way. Water off a ducks back. Help him to reflect on what was said and ask if there is any validity to the alternate instructor's critique. Whether they said it the "way" you think they should have said it or not. There should always be decorum in a class but that doesn't mean you will always like what you hear.  
An alternate thought; is this a very new instructor who is really excited and trying to prove their worth? Maybe they see something extra in your kid and are just trying to pull it out albeit a little rough around the edges. As you said, they are not the 8th Dan so maybe cut them some slack and ask yourself if you are trying to fit everyone and everything into the exact same mold. It will never or should never happen.
I would suggest you and your son give it some time to settle and reflect on things. May keep a knee-jerk reaction form happening. Always hard to take those back (been there-done that). After some time or if it consistently keeps happenig with the same instructor, it may be time to talk to his GM. I would add this though, if there are changes that should be happening with your son and they are not then both sides are culpable so it gets to be a little tenuous. If you feel strongly that the hearing deficit is contributing to this problem, make certain you do the new instructor a good service and try talking through it with them first. Then if there is no resolution certainly talk to the GM. He will appreciate your efforts in trying to deal with the new instructor. Should be a learning lesson for everyone.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools.  You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.
> 
> This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent.  As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.
> 
> ...


Yea, if they were not kids I would have a hard time calling that sparring. I hate a body shot like that at any age being called a point, Especially when they have gear on. 

I have been knocked out WITH headgear on and ribs broken WITH a hogu on so I am a big, big proponent of wearing sparring gear. It was bad enough when I was wearing them. Makes things much, much more realistic.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2018)

Dadrockholiday said:


> Do I mention it to the actual sensie in order that he does not let him train the class again, or do I just keep my mouth shut?


It's a good opportunity for your son to handle this case. He will face situation like this a lot when he steps into the society. You can't protect him all your life. You have to let him to face it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I have been knocked out WITH headgear on and ribs broken WITH a hogu on so I am a big, big proponent of wearing sparring gear.


I don't know if this was your case, but sometimes people tend to hit and kick harder than they should when they see that their sparring partner wears gear.  The gear gives the feeling that now you can kick and punch as hard has you want your sparring partner will be ok.

It's sort of like seeing a person wearing a red man suit.  When you see that, you don't think; hit and kick softer.






It just occurred to me, that if the student is getting feedback on their strikes by how their sparring partner reacts, then that may encourage them to hit harder when they see that uncomfortable look that we all get after someone has landed a decent shot.  It doesn't have to be a death blow type power shot, but it only has to be solid enough where you can see that your partner doesn't like it.   Land a good face shot even a soft one without gear and you'll see your opponent dislike it.  Hit too hard and your opponent's face turns into the "don't hit me that hard response"


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Hit too hard and your opponent's face turns into the "don't hit me that hard response




I find often it actually turns into 'you hit me that hard I'm going to hit you harder'. 


dvcochran said:


> He will appreciate your efforts in trying to deal with the new instructor.




The OP did say the instructor wasn't from that school though, he wasn't a new instructor but rather a guest one. Hence my reflection about one of the instructors being wrong in how they teach kata.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The OP did say the instructor wasn't from that school though, he wasn't a new instructor but rather a guest one. Hence my reflection about one of the instructors being wrong in how they teach kata.


I'm wondering if it's not a matter of either being wrong, but two different opinions on parts of the kata. I know that the Classical forms within NGA can differ significantly between schools, even within the same association. In any case, a guest instructor shouldn't be telling students they're doing something wrong that they've recently been tested on (and, thus, passed by someone who's expected to be competent to judge that), when it's as much as was expressed in the OP. (I'm okay, of course, with them pointing out the occasional error - but not with wholesale correction like that.) They aren't going to have a positive effect in a single class with that, and if they think it needs correcting, the place to work on it is with the regular instructor.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm wondering if it's not a matter of either being wrong, but two different opinions on parts of the kata. I know that the Classical forms within NGA can differ significantly between schools, even within the same association. In any case, a guest instructor shouldn't be telling students they're doing something wrong that they've recently been tested on (and, thus, passed by someone who's expected to be competent to judge that), when it's as much as was expressed in the OP. (I'm okay, of course, with them pointing out the occasional error - but not with wholesale correction like that.) They aren't going to have a positive effect in a single class with that, and if they think it needs correcting, the place to work on it is with the regular instructor.




Unless of course the guest instructor was brought in just to see what the regular instructor was teaching? The guest instructor probably didn't know that the lad had just been graded, it may be too that someone wanted to see if the grading authority was doing it's job and the grades were correct. Lots of possibilities that can only be sorted by asking, it's nice we have a new poster but in the first instance questions are best answered by the chief instructor unless of course the OP already has doubts and wanted other opinions?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Unless of course the guest instructor was brought in just to see what the regular instructor was teaching? The guest instructor probably didn't know that the lad had just been graded, it may be too that someone wanted to see if the grading authority was doing it's job and the grades were correct. Lots of possibilities that can only be sorted by asking, it's nice we have a new poster but in the first instance questions are best answered by the chief instructor unless of course the OP already has doubts and wanted other opinions?


I agree there are reasons a guest instructor might be there to check things out. But correcting large numbers of things in a single day isn't likely to have any positive effect when the regular instructor will be back teaching that class next time. Those corrections - if the point was to check out the instructor - should be given to the instructor or CI, or to someone in the organization.

As for him being newly graded, the oh-so-stiff belt that has to be bent into a knot, rather than tied, usually gives that away.


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## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know if this was your case, but sometimes people tend to hit and kick harder than they should when they see that their sparring partner wears gear.  The gear gives the feeling that now you can kick and punch as hard has you want your sparring partner will be ok.
> 
> It's sort of like seeing a person wearing a red man suit.  When you see that, you don't think; hit and kick softer.
> 
> ...



This gear looks similar to what I have seen used in  Kali competitions where knives with dull, blunt metal blades are used. The scoring is accrued by the number of slices and where they are made. So yes, I would want that level of protection. It is more mobile than it appears. And it is all up fighting not grappling. 
I have also seen something similar in self defense classes where someone is literally a live punching bag. 

I appreciate the speed and calculation involved in point-stop sparring competitions but that is where it stops. When you are in a full contact match of whatever style (boxing, wrestling, MA) it forces yours senses into a higher plane because you should know that you really, really can get hit hard, knocked down, or knocked out or something worse. 
That uncomfortable expression is part of the conditioning that doesn't always occur enough at some schools. We all need to learn how to give and take a punch. The gear is a way to practice both repeatedly and still go to work the next day and look and walk normal. 
With all the talk on the forum about using dance as a comparison to forms competition I will use one of my favorite sayings used during sparring sessions. "This isn't ballet class".


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I agree there are reasons a guest instructor might be there to check things out. But correcting large numbers of things in a single day isn't likely to have any positive effect when the regular instructor will be back teaching that class next time. Those corrections - if the point was to check out the instructor - should be given to the instructor or CI, or to someone in the organization.
> 
> As for him being newly graded, the oh-so-stiff belt that has to be bent into a knot, rather than tied, usually gives that away.




He may not have just been at that session, the OP only saw him at his son's. The guest instructor may be the 'secret shopper' of that organisation.

Our belts were never stiff as we softened them before tying, took a while rolling and unrolling them as well as 'scrunching' them but nobody wants a stiff belt! It's not cool!


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## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> it's not awkwardness as in a social faux pas but the awkwardness where people are paying money for instruction and one of those instructors is clearly wrong. If it's the senior instructor he should be told, no? If it's the class instructor then the class will have to be retaught.


There may be depth here we are not appreciating. What if the senior instructor is aware of the new instructors weaknesses in teaching and is trying to help him learn how to teach better and how to deal with the adversity of dealing with upset parents?


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## JR 137 (Oct 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, if they were not kids I would have a hard time calling that sparring. I hate a body shot like that at any age being called a point, Especially when they have gear on.
> 
> I have been knocked out WITH headgear on and ribs broken WITH a hogu on so I am a big, big proponent of wearing sparring gear. It was bad enough when I was wearing them. Makes things much, much more realistic.





JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know if this was your case, but sometimes people tend to hit and kick harder than they should when they see that their sparring partner wears gear.  The gear gives the feeling that now you can kick and punch as hard has you want your sparring partner will be ok.
> 
> It's sort of like seeing a person wearing a red man suit.  When you see that, you don't think; hit and kick softer.
> 
> ...


The headgear isn’t really designed to eliminate concussions. Frankly, any headgear, football helmets included,  doesn’t do much to protect from them. If you read the disclaimer/warning labels on them, you’ll see what I mean. The best they can do is lessen the impact so the trauma isn’t as severe.

It’s like the motorcycle helmet laws. I hate to say it, but helmets on a motorcycle don’t do more than protect your head if you’re stopped at a stoplight and fall over. Or keep your head from getting lumped up if you get hit by a stone in the road. I’m not a motorcycle guy, so this isn’t some biased rant. 

A motorcycle or football helmet is going to keep your skull from getting cracked or your scalp from getting cut. Studies show the rate of trauma has gone down a good amount, but let’s be serious - people are still getting knock out cold and dying from head trauma all the time while wearing appropriate helmets and wearing them correctly.  

Concussions come from your brain slamming against your skull. That’s going to happen no matter what you’re wearing. A helmet may absorb some of the energy so it doesn’t slam as hard. The foam ones don’t absorb very much energy. IMO all they’re good for is not cracking your skull if your head hits the floor.

As far as how hard people tend to hit with and without gear on, I can only offer some personal insight...

My previous school started out as bare knuckle. About a year or two into it, we mandated by our organization to wear sparring gear - head, hands and feet. Chest protectors optional. My sensei had us wear it most days, but still held “bare knuckle Friday” for anyone who wanted to go. Those of us who came through before the gear mandate hit a lot harder with gear on. All I can say is my mentality was I can hit harder now that we’re padded up. Pretty stupid if you ask me. 

I had 20 rounds of sparring using knockdown rules in my 1st dan test. We were wearing head, foot and hand gear. I honestly would’ve rathered going bare knuckle. I wouldn’t have been hit as hard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> He may not have just been at that session, the OP only saw him at his son's. The guest instructor may be the 'secret shopper' of that organisation.


Again, not disputing any of that. But he taught a single day for that class (whether he taught others doesn't affect that). So he isn't going to be able to affect wholesale change by a single session of instruction to students - his effort (assuming that's the situation) will be to better effect if he addresses the issue where it lies: with the instructor. If I had instructors teaching under me, and went to one of their classes and found fundamental errors, I can't fix those with the students in a single day. If I'm not going to be teaching there on a regular basis, the only way I can fix those is to help the instructor.



> Our belts were never stiff as we softened them before tying, took a while rolling and unrolling them as well as 'scrunching' them but nobody wants a stiff belt! It's not cool!


We never got around to doing that. We just mocked the new belt (not the wearer - the actual belt) for not knowing its job properly. And we warned other students of the safety hazard if the belt's ends stuck out: "Careful, you'll put an eye out with that thing."


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I had 20 rounds of sparring using knockdown rules in my 1st dan test. We were wearing head, foot and hand gear. I honestly would’ve rathered going bare knuckle. I wouldn’t have been hit as hard.



Osu, as another bare knuckler I can appreciate preferring not to wear sparring gear (especially head gear).   Much more comfortable without it and fortunately I am at a school that gives us the option to spar without gear.  In terms of hitting harder, I am not sure if we do that (especially without gear).  It is an unwritten rule at our dojo that two people can ramp up the intensity as long as they BOTH want to train at that level and agree to go harder BEFORE the session begins.  I am sure it is the same at your dojo, with folks gravitating to others that prefer a higher degree of contact if that is what you are looking for when sparring.  This is not to say, we also do not do a lot of controlled contact sparring especially when the size and weight discrepancy is large.   Ultimately, we don't want people to get injured when sparring so they have to stop training to heal.  That is counterproductive and helps no one in the end.


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## FriedRice (Oct 18, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools.  You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.
> 
> This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent.  As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.
> 
> ...



Interesting. I'm not just trying to argue, but I'm actually against little kids getting cracked in the head for sports & combat sports and I'm very protective of the little kids I teach. Something like this video is OK with me, once in a while, but not harder....b/c their brains are still sloshing around and getting jolted inside their skulls....smacking around. Now if their parents allows this for them when they're 15 or 16, then I'll coach them to fight full contact. Or if some kid is getting bullied so bad to the point of getting bad grades, resorting to drugs, suicide or esp. kids living in rough neighborhoods, etc....then yea let's get them in Fighter's training. But I live in a wealthy suburbs where kids are better off doing good in school & going to college than prize fighting like in Thailand at age 6, racking up 300-400 fights and retiring at 40.

And this is why I'm against little kids strutting around with Black Belts. It devalues that aura thingy about being a BB in anything. Like these BJJ kids in competition team....they're tough for being kids.....but they usually also cry like little girls when another kid's hand snaps loose from a grip and smacks them in the face, accidentally.....like the world was going to end or something....right in the middle of a competition. It's kind of funny. I appreciate you thinking they're that tough & hardy though, and in certain aspects they are.....but still not BB worthy, which I feel that it's suiting that that's why in BJJ, they still only get a Blue belt at 16, even after all that training and 2000 sq/ft full of medals.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> So basically your upset because someone gave your kid advice on how to improve...did you believe he was perfect and because he's a black belt he knows everything?
> 
> Also he shouted at kids misbehaving...well so he should itll teach them to pay attention.
> 
> Ive read nothing that sounds like a bad instructor. Are you its him.thats the problem?



That's how I read it as well. It sounds to me like the guest instructor was trying to make the kid better, and keep discipline in the dojo.

If your flaws aren't pointed out how can you improve them? If you are being mollycoddled how can you gain discipline?


----------



## JR 137 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, as another bare knuckler I can appreciate preferring not to wear sparring gear (especially head gear).   Much more comfortable without it and fortunately I am at a school that gives us the option to spar without gear.  In terms of hitting harder, I am not sure if we do that (especially without gear).  It is an unwritten rule at our dojo that two people can ramp up the intensity as long as they BOTH want to train at that level and agree to go harder BEFORE the session begins.  I am sure it is the same at your dojo, with folks gravitating to others that prefer a higher degree of contact if that is what you are looking for when sparring.  This is not to say, we also do not do a lot of controlled contact sparring especially when the size and weight discrepancy is large.   Ultimately, we don't want people to get injured when sparring so they have to stop training to heal.  That is counterproductive and helps no one in the end.


That was my Kyokushin offshoot days. I’m in Seido Juku now; Tadashi Nakamura’s organization if you’re not familiar. We wear sparring gear. When I came back to karate about 3.5 years ago, it was either Kyokushin or Seido. One of the reasons I chose Seido was because I felt like my body was getting too old for the bare knuckle day in and day out. I could’ve done it again, but I took a realistic look inward and asked myself how long can I do that. I’ve done it before, and the lessons learned aren’t ones you forget - in a good way.

We’ve got a bunch of guys and women who were in bare knuckle organizations in the past. Seido was Kyokushin, and my teacher and his wife were in Kyokushin. Most of us with that background spar pretty hard when it’s appropriate. It all depends on who we’re paired up with and how that person’s feeling that day. My CI often says “I’ve got no problem with people going hard. Just make sure your partner is willing and able, and you’re under control.”


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 18, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That's how I read it as well. It sounds to me like the guest instructor was trying to make the kid better, and keep discipline in the dojo.
> 
> If your flaws aren't pointed out how can you improve them? If you are being mollycoddled how can you gain discipline?


Yeah I'm very confused why people are saying he was in the wrong....the kid got his black belt last week....does that mean your not allowed to correct a mistake and the op thinks their kids so good they're beyond correction. The op used big words like bullying and belittling and picking on him but from the actual description I saw none of that. "He made my son do his kata in front of the whole class" um yeah that happens in pretty much every class....surely Mr black belt should have no problem showing his kata to everyone


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah I'm very confused why people are saying he was in the wrong....the kid got his black belt last week....does that mean your not allowed to correct a mistake and the op thinks their kids so good they're beyond correction. The op used big words like bullying and belittling and picking on him but from the actual description I saw none of that. "He made my son do his kata in front of the whole class" um yeah that happens in pretty much every class....surely Mr black belt should have no problem showing his kata to everyone


It, as usual, depends how it was done.


----------



## skribs (Oct 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah I'm very confused why people are saying he was in the wrong....the kid got his black belt last week....does that mean your not allowed to correct a mistake and the op thinks their kids so good they're beyond correction. The op used big words like bullying and belittling and picking on him but from the actual description I saw none of that. "He made my son do his kata in front of the whole class" um yeah that happens in pretty much every class....surely Mr black belt should have no problem showing his kata to everyone



That depends on how it's done.  If it's done to show every mistake in a kata that you basically just learned for the previous rank and are still refining, that's a bit demeaning.  Especially if these are either A) details that the student hasn't learned yet, or B) details that this instructor does different.  

Depending on how well he knows the student, too, he doesn't know the student's progress.  Or if he is there, then he DOES know the student's progress.  If the student has been corrected several times, then sure.  But if the student hasn't gotten these details yet, then he should do it as a positive teaching moment (i.e. "you can do this to sharpen your technique") instead of a negative teaching moment (i.e. "you're bad and don't deserve that belt").

In my school, a new black joining the black belt class is basically the beginner.  Like going from 8th grade to high school, you're suddenly at the bottom of the totem pole.  Or if this is a mixed belt class, then we might be looking at a black belt being humiliated in front of the colored belts.


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## skribs (Oct 18, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> There may be depth here we are not appreciating. What if the senior instructor is aware of the new instructors weaknesses in teaching and is trying to help him learn how to teach better and how to deal with the adversity of dealing with upset parents?



You don't do that without being there to see what's happening.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> It’s like the motorcycle helmet laws. I hate to say it, but helmets on a motorcycle don’t do more than protect your head if you’re stopped at a stoplight and fall over. Or keep your head from getting lumped up if you get hit by a stone in the road. I’m not a motorcycle guy, so this isn’t some biased rant.


sorry for the derailment of the thread but i dont think this is accurate.  this clip explains good helmets but thats not the end of the story.  accidents are not limited to direct impacts.  a lot of injuries are caused by sliding your face over 50 feet of pavement.  people lose their facial features and sometimes including the entire jaw.  the key is to wear an approved DOT helmet.  most bikers (myself included) wear nothing but a "skull cap" or "brain bucket" designed for scooping your brain up off the ground after the accident.


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> That depends on how it's done.  If it's done to show every mistake in a kata that you basically just learned for the previous rank and are still refining, that's a bit demeaning.  Especially if these are either A) details that the student hasn't learned yet, or B) details that this instructor does different.
> 
> Depending on how well he knows the student, too, he doesn't know the student's progress.  Or if he is there, then he DOES know the student's progress.  If the student has been corrected several times, then sure.  But if the student hasn't gotten these details yet, then he should do it as a positive teaching moment (i.e. "you can do this to sharpen your technique") instead of a negative teaching moment (i.e. "you're bad and don't deserve that belt").
> 
> In my school, a new black joining the black belt class is basically the beginner.  Like going from 8th grade to high school, you're suddenly at the bottom of the totem pole.  Or if this is a mixed belt class, then we might be looking at a black belt being humiliated in front of the colored belts.


If it's details they haven't learnt yet then that was the time to learn than instead of sulking about it. How's he supposed to learn those details if he's not told them. I've done stuff in classes and been told the things I'm doing wrong in front of a class. I don't care that's why I'm there. To learn not parade around pretending I'm great


----------



## skribs (Oct 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> If it's details they haven't learnt yet then that was the time to learn than instead of sulking about it. How's he supposed to learn those details if he's not told them. I've done stuff in classes and been told the things I'm doing wrong in front of a class. I don't care that's why I'm there. To learn not parade around pretending I'm great



There's a difference between being told how to improve your kata, and being told you're an idiot because you don't know things you haven't been told.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That was my Kyokushin offshoot days. I’m in Seido Juku now; Tadashi Nakamura’s organization if you’re not familiar. We wear sparring gear. When I came back to karate about 3.5 years ago, it was either Kyokushin or Seido. One of the reasons I chose Seido was because I felt like my body was getting too old for the bare knuckle day in and day out. I could’ve done it again, but I took a realistic look inward and asked myself how long can I do that. I’ve done it before, and the lessons learned aren’t ones you forget - in a good way.
> 
> We’ve got a bunch of guys and women who were in bare knuckle organizations in the past. Seido was Kyokushin, and my teacher and his wife were in Kyokushin. Most of us with that background spar pretty hard when it’s appropriate. It all depends on who we’re paired up with and how that person’s feeling that day. My CI often says “I’ve got no problem with people going hard. Just make sure your partner is willing and able, and you’re under control.”


Osu, although I haven't trained with any Seido Juku guys yet, I know who Shihan Nakamura is.  Also know who Shihan Charles Martin is as well.   

We follow the same principle of consent at our dojo.   The most skillful fighters can adjust the power they deliver depending on who their opponent is but a good instructor will always remind people to look at who they are sparring with and be considerate of their training as well as their own.


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> There's a difference between being told how to improve your kata, and being told you're an idiot because you don't know things you haven't been told.


And where in the post was that claimed to be what he said


----------



## CB Jones (Oct 18, 2018)

Well the OP hasn’t been back to the thread since posting it....so I’m going no to guess it was an overreaction.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

I may be wrong but the a commonly held definition for a black belt is that they mastered the basic movements of a particular style.  It is 100% to be corrected for technique even when you are a black belt.  The way it comes across to the student may differ from how that message was intended to be delivered but that is what happens when the human element is introduced into anything.  Two people can look at the exact same thing and feel opposite about it.   

Still, the OP is a parent and the comments were being delivered to a child by an adult, they may want to have a discussion with the CI to "better understand" what happened.   They won't know unless they ask.   I can also understand that there are parents who 'bubble wrap" their kids.   Who knows if this is that kind of situation but, imho, asking for clarification from the CI is better than assuming the worst.   In all instances, people should be respectful when making such inquiries as they can be contentious.


----------



## JR 137 (Oct 18, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Osu, although I haven't trained with any Seido Juku guys yet, I know who Shihan Nakamura is.  Also know who Shihan Charles Martin is as well.
> 
> We follow the same principle of consent at our dojo.   The most skillful fighters can adjust the power they deliver depending on who their opponent is but a good instructor will always remind people to look at who they are sparring with and be considerate of their training as well as their own.


Hanshi Charles Martin is still Nakamura’s student. Such a nice guy. I’ve met and spoke to him a few times, but haven’t had the privilege of being in a class he’s running.

My teacher has a ton of William Oliver stories too. My teacher was around during the Fighting Black Kings days. He’s not in the movie, but he was at some of those workouts. I think he was around brown belt at that time. I think he said he was in the first group to test for shodan after Kaicho Nakamura left Kyokushin and started Seido. That was 1976.

The Kyokushin offshoot I was in was started by 2 former Nakamura Kyokushin students. We were supposed to adjust our contact with people appropriately, but there were enough guys who didn’t understand that concept, unfortunately. I loved it when I was in my 20s. In my 40s, I don’t recover like I used to. My 20 man kumite for shodan was on a Saturday. I was back in class Monday night. If that were today, I’d be out at least a week, more like 2+.

I loved it and truthfully miss it. But I’m also realistic about where I am at this point in my life and how long I could keep that up. I know a few too many guys who needed hip and knee replacements at way too young of an age because of that stuff, along with other problems. I’ve got the utmost respect for it, but right now it’s just not for me. Been there done that. If I could do that for the rest of my life, I’d do it.


----------



## JR 137 (Oct 18, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> sorry for the derailment of the thread but i dont think this is accurate.  this clip explains good helmets but thats not the end of the story.  accidents are not limited to direct impacts.  a lot of injuries are caused by sliding your face over 50 feet of pavement.  people lose their facial features and sometimes including the entire jaw.  the key is to wear an approved DOT helmet.  most bikers (myself included) wear nothing but a "skull cap" or "brain bucket" designed for scooping your brain up off the ground after the accident.


Maybe I was being a bit oversimplistic. The helmet will definitely help protect from road rash, as severe as you mention. But if your head is sliding along the pavement at a decent speed, chances are pretty high you’re going to break your neck. The helmet isn’t going to protect you from that.

Again, I’m not a motorcycle guy, so take my opinions as you will. I could be way off.


----------



## skribs (Oct 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And where in the post was that claimed to be what he said



That's what it seemed to imply, to me.  That it was done to belittle the student rather than to teach him.



Yokazuna514 said:


> I may be wrong but the a commonly held definition for a black belt is that they mastered the basic movements of a particular style.  It is 100% to be corrected for technique even when you are a black belt.  The way it comes across to the student may differ from how that message was intended to be delivered but that is what happens when the human element is introduced into anything.  Two people can look at the exact same thing and feel opposite about it.
> 
> Still, the OP is a parent and the comments were being delivered to a child by an adult, they may want to have a discussion with the CI to "better understand" what happened.   They won't know unless they ask.   I can also understand that there are parents who 'bubble wrap" their kids.   Who knows if this is that kind of situation but, imho, asking for clarification from the CI is better than assuming the worst.   In all instances, people should be respectful when making such inquiries as they can be contentious.



At my school you have a functional understanding of the techniques, but there's still a lot of details that get cleaned up by 2nd and 3rd degree.  Personally, I got my 3rd degree, and I'm still struggling with a few things and still learning.

There's also a big difference between a black belt's mastery of the white & yellow belt forms vs. their mastery of the form they learned just before getting their black belt.  The earlier forms are simpler and they've done them for years.  The advanced forms are more complex and they've probably only been doing them for the last several months or so.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Well the OP hasn’t been back to the thread since posting it....so I’m going no to guess it was an overreaction.



We watched the UK version of The Apprentice and one of the contestants was getting annoyed, he got a bit ratty and raised his voice, Several of the other contestants complained afterwards about how 'emotional' he was and they couldn't have someone who got that 'emotional' (they meant was that he was unstable) in a team. What everyone else saw was someone who was hot and bothered cooking over a hot fat fryer and getting annoyed because his team weren't giving stuff to fry fast enough, irritable certainly but weepy, unstable or about to have a breakdown no. 
People see very different things, and put their own take on people. Parents especially are very protective of their children ( yes rightly so) but sometimes do see something as being too critical of their children and by extension themselves.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Hanshi Charles Martin is still Nakamura’s student. Such a nice guy. I’ve met and spoke to him a few times, but haven’t had the privilege of being in a class he’s running.
> 
> My teacher has a ton of William Oliver stories too. My teacher was around during the Fighting Black Kings days. He’s not in the movie, but he was at some of those workouts. I think he was around brown belt at that time. I think he said he was in the first group to test for shodan after Kaicho Nakamura left Kyokushin and started Seido. That was 1976.
> 
> ...


Osu, glad to hear Hanshi Martin is still at it.  I too had a 20 man kumite (1-1/2 minutes per round) and was back in class on the Monday but I trained for it.  It is something I will not forget soon but you are correct, the body doesn't recover as fast as it used to and I have to be mindful of that every time I step on the floor.  It doesn't change the way I spar but I do think of it.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> and I'm still struggling with a few things and still learning


One of the best things I have read on this forum.   Agree that is the best attitude to have regarding training.


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> That's what it seemed to imply, to me.  That it was done to belittle the student rather than to teach him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah that's my point they tried to imply that but the actual description of what happened simply sounds like normal teaching and a parent who's upset their kid wasn't treated like a god for wearing a black belt


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And where in the post was that claimed to be what he said


I think his point was that it's possible it was at either extreme...or somewhere between them.


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## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> You don't do that without being there to see what's happening.


Sometimes you just have to give someone enough rope to hang themselves.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Those of us who came through before the gear mandate hit a lot harder with gear on. All I can say is my mentality was I can hit harder now that we’re padded up. Pretty stupid if you ask me.


This is common is a common way to think.  Probably because if we all learn that pads protect, so if they protect then the person will be ok when you blast them.

American football players lay each other out thanks to the equipment that they have one.  I know for a fact they would hit like this if they didn't have the equipment.





Ruby is rough but it still is not close to the human train wreck in American football.  Tackles are much cleaner. American football players could learn from these guys





From the quick research I did, it seems that both have serious injuries. American Football has the higher impact injury and the Ruby has serious spine injuries.
Sports Science: The Science of the Scrum

As for sparring this is the best video yet.  You can see those who turn down the power and then those knuckle heads who turn up the intensity and probably go harder than they should.  I like the shots of the ones that get kicked in the face and I'm thinking..."keep your hands up" But you can see the realization that they screwed up, but unfortunately they don't correct the mistake because with TKD teaches to kick with the arms down.. Which is weird because they don't kick with their hands down in their forms.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Interesting. I'm not just trying to argue, but I'm actually against little kids getting cracked in the head for sports & combat sports and I'm very protective of the little kids I teach. Something like this video is OK with me, once in a while, but not harder....b/c their brains are still sloshing around and getting jolted inside their skulls....smacking around.


Fair point.  It can be done safely (the sparring part not hitting the head part).  You just have to set the rules of where you can strike and how hard.  I went back to look at a video of the kids at my old school and I saw that most of them were happy to punch the gloves instead of the hands.   The adults didn't mind so long as they were working the techniques by punching their opponent's gloves.

I only remember the moans from kids getting the wind knocked out and jammed fingers.  We wanted kids to experience getting hit and kick so that the feeling and sometimes pain wasn't foreign to them, but I don't ever remember encouraging them to go for the face.  Unfortunately there are some places that encourage head strikes.


----------



## Anarax (Oct 18, 2018)

Dadrockholiday said:


> Hi from a newbie!
> 
> My son has just attained his Shodan rank at the age of 13 after 6 years or training. He studies Shotokan Karate. He has been with his present club for 2 1/2 years and his instructors are very well thought of in the community.
> 
> ...



Different instructors have different training methodologies. Some are hard as nails and will scrutinize every detail, others are more layed back. 

No one enjoys being told they're doing something wrong. However, if they thoroughly explain what they're doing wrong it shows what they need to work on.


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> the Ruby has serious spine injuries.



This isn't from tackling though but from scrums collapsing. Rules have been changed to prevent this happening and injuries have been going down.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> This isn't from tackling though but from scrums collapsing. Rules have been changed to prevent this happening and injuries have been going down.


Correct. That's why I put the link to the third video. Sports Science: The Science of the Scrum You tube wouldn't let me embed it.  The spinal injury isn't from the impact of being tackled.   I'm glad to hear that the change of rules have helped.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> This isn't from tackling though but from scrums collapsing. Rules have been changed to prevent this happening and injuries have been going down.


There are rules in the scrum???


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There are rules in the scrum???




Lots, scrum is a misnomer, it's far from being an actual scrum. 
Rugby-League.com

Rugby Union Rules and Regulations UK 2018 | RFU Laws


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Lots, scrum is a misnomer, it's far from being an actual scrum.
> Rugby-League.com
> 
> Rugby Union Rules and Regulations UK 2018 | RFU Laws


To those of us who don't know the games, rugby and cricket both seem like they're making the rules up as they go. Very Calvin and Hobbs.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> To those of us who don't know the games, rugby and cricket both seem like they're making the rules up as they go. Very Calvin and Hobbs.




Is that why you go for the very simple games like American football and baseball? Try Aussie rules football it will blow your mind.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Is that why you go for the very simple games like American football and baseball? Try Aussie rules football it will blow your mind.


Me, I prefer soccer. The rules all make sense. Yeah, it takes three sentences to describe what "off sides" is, but still...


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Me, I prefer soccer. The rules all make sense. Yeah, it takes three sentences to describe what "off sides" is, but still...




Rugby, a game of thugs plays by gentlemen, football ( soccer to you) a game of gentlemen played by thugs.


----------



## skribs (Oct 19, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Sometimes you just have to give someone enough rope to hang themselves.



But in this case you have to be there to witness it, or else where are the gallows?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2018)

What will you do when you have a bad

- manager at work?
- president in your country?
- ...


----------



## drop bear (Oct 19, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What will you do when you have a bad
> 
> - manager at work?
> - president in your country?
> - ...



***** on the internet.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 19, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Maybe I was being a bit oversimplistic. The helmet will definitely help protect from road rash, as severe as you mention. But if your head is sliding along the pavement at a decent speed, chances are pretty high you’re going to break your neck. The helmet isn’t going to protect you from that.
> 
> Again, I’m not a motorcycle guy, so take my opinions as you will. I could be way off.



If the helmet doesn't catch you should be ok.

Coming off a motorcycle is very much. It is not the fall it is the sudden stop at the end.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 20, 2018)

... went to a seminar today and there were 3 instructors, two were guests. One of which I considered to be not so great an instructor at all... sounds similar to the OP situation.

Called out a 13 year old black belt (amongst others) and asked them to demonstrate particular sequences, called them basically crap, 'ranked' them 3.5/10, and said he's going back to his dojo and he's going to have to tell them that this dojo doesn't show much 'spirit'. To a 13 year old.

He was a fairly high rank, but in no way do I think that's acceptable. NOR motivating in any way. I felt completely uninspired by him. The kid actually did great, really sharp technique, power etc. I think there may be some leeway to higher grades at times, and as though because they're a higher grade it's justification to treat others like dirt.

I was close to just walking out. There's pushing people to perform with more oomph and power (encouragement, sharing exciting and energy), then there's overly critical, making a kid feel guilty in front of his whole club that he's letting them all down and giving them a bad rep. There were more instances too, but it reminds me of the movie 'Whiplash' (not sure who's seen it, I've only seen clips), but to what degree would one subject oneself to that behaviour in order to just get 'good' at something? At what cost? It's interesting...

Really is context dependent, and important to view the instructor without bias, and I'm curious about updates from the OP.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Called out a 13 year old black belt (amongst others) and asked them to demonstrate particular sequences, called them basically crap, 'ranked' them 3.5/10, and said he's going back to his dojo and he's going to have to tell them that this dojo doesn't show much 'spirit'. To a 13 year old.




I suspect that the instructor was making a point, at the student's expense about having such young people with black belts. I really don't like young black belts but wouldn't take it out on them, not their fault though if they have an attitude they will be told but then I would do that to anyone with attitude.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 20, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I suspect that the instructor was making a point, at the student's expense about having such young people with black belts. I really don't like young black belts but wouldn't take it out on them, not their fault though if they have an attitude they will be told but then I would do that to anyone with attitude.



Yeah it didn't seem based on the fact he was a young black belt, and nor did he have any attitude. I would understand if he was showing disrespect that the instructor would call him up on it, but that wasn't the case.. was just deflating, and wasn't motivating or encouraging.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> ... went to a seminar today and there were 3 instructors, two were guests. One of which I considered to be not so great an instructor at all... sounds similar to the OP situation.
> 
> Called out a 13 year old black belt (amongst others) and asked them to demonstrate particular sequences, called them basically crap, 'ranked' them 3.5/10, and said he's going back to his dojo and he's going to have to tell them that this dojo doesn't show much 'spirit'. To a 13 year old.
> 
> ...


When I first started my MA journey, back in the mid 80's, I would say I was wiling to accept any critique. So much of the post for this thread are about semantics and delivery. Two people who deliver the same message will be received completely different. "You are doing that wrong" will be taken very differently said by different people.  It is the little things we sense in direct contact conversation. Is the delivery nervous, aggressive, passive, weak, and so on. Is the person animated, stoic, engaged. These are the things we will never get from discussions on the forum because we were not there to see and FEEL them. Also the receptors are going to be different. For example, the OP is the parent of the student in question. Apparently, the student has some mild deficit so understandably the parent is protective. Overly protective, maybe. In the same vein, a new student is wide eyed and usually overloaded with information so correction is slower and usually not well received. In contrast, a mature black belt should be able to receive criticism better and be able to parse out at least some degree of unnecessary, incorrect, or even embarrassing critique. 
My GM is 84 so he is way past teaching with heavily physical example. Lately, he has really been on me about teaching more verbally and by explanation. Hard to do when you tend to compare your current self to your 25-30 year old self. I do understand it is important as a BB of any rank to know how to be "deep" in your understanding and teaching of your MA.
I do hope the OP posts again and let us know how things are going.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it didn't seem based on the fact he was a young black belt, and nor did he have any attitude. I would understand if he was showing disrespect that the instructor would call him up on it, but that wasn't the case.. was just deflating, and wasn't motivating or encouraging.


Again, we have no clue if there was attitude from the young BB instructor. We were not there.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it didn't seem based on the fact he was a young black belt, and nor did he have any attitude. I would understand if he was showing disrespect that the instructor would call him up on it, but that wasn't the case.. was just deflating, and wasn't motivating or encouraging.




I didn't mean so much the young blackbelt was at fault in any way but many instructors do not like children having blackbelts and that lad copped it for that.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 20, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> When I first started my MA journey, back in the mid 80's, I would say I was wiling to accept any critique. So much of the post for this thread are about semantics and delivery. Two people who deliver the same message will be received completely different. "You are doing that wrong" will be taken very differently said by different people.  It is the little things we sense in direct contact conversation. Is the delivery nervous, aggressive, passive, weak, and so on. Is the person animated, stoic, engaged. These are the things we will never get from discussions on the forum because we were not there to see and FEEL them. Also the receptors are going to be different. For example, the OP is the parent of the student in question. Apparently, the student has some mild deficit so understandably the parent is protective. Overly protective, maybe. In the same vein, a new student is wide eyed and usually overloaded with information so correction is slower and usually not well received. In contrast, a mature black belt should be able to receive criticism better and be able to parse out at least some degree of unnecessary, incorrect, or even embarrassing critique.
> My GM is 84 so he is way past teaching with heavily physical example. Lately, he has really been on me about teaching more verbally and by explanation. Hard to do when you tend to compare your current self to your 25-30 year old self. I do understand it is important as a BB of any rank to know how to be "deep" in your understanding and teaching of your MA.
> I do hope the OP posts again and let us know how things are going.


Yep very true, well said.





dvcochran said:


> Again, we have no clue if there was attitude from the young BB instructor. We were not there.


And yeah I was moreso referring to the situation I described (in which I was there), but yeah would love to hear more info from the OP.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 20, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I didn't mean so much the young blackbelt was at fault in any way but many instructors do not like children having blackbelts and that lad copped it for that.


Ah yep fair enough, very well could have been that. I just don't see the point in that teaching style in the long term grand scheme of things.


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## Tez3 (Oct 21, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yep fair enough, very well could have been that. I just don't see the point in that teaching style in the long term grand scheme of things.




I now have a good hairdresser who does my hair just how I like it but before I found him I tried a few. The thing I noticed was however good I thought my hair had been cut the next hairdresser would pull it apart, 'who on earth cut this', 'OMG, this has been butchered' etc etc. the implication is of course that all the previous hairdressers were rubbish and only the one talking was any good. it was a depressingly common refrain, one which my current hairdresser didn't use, another reason I like him.
I'd suggest that the instructor was doing a version of this, all the other instructors are rubbish but he can turn it around for all the students cos he's the best!!


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## _Simon_ (Oct 21, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I now have a good hairdresser who does my hair just how I like it but before I found him I tried a few. The thing I noticed was however good I thought my hair had been cut the next hairdresser would pull it apart, 'who on earth cut this', 'OMG, this has been butchered' etc etc. the implication is of course that all the previous hairdressers were rubbish and only the one talking was any good. it was a depressingly common refrain, one which my current hairdresser didn't use, another reason I like him.
> I'd suggest that the instructor was doing a version of this, all the other instructors are rubbish but he can turn it around for all the students cos he's the best!!



Hehe yeah wow.. I'd imagine it's a common thing, just the arrogance and tearing down that's so unappealing... Even if he knew a ton and could make me improve dramatically technically as a karateka, I wouldn't go anywhere near him. Just at what cost, how you see yourself and what you think you deserve all come into it.


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 21, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely (to be honest though I wouldn't be happy if my son was only 13 and was given a black belt but that's just me.)



I wouldn't be happy either if he was *given* a black belt.  But I wouldn't be upset if he earned his black belt.



FriedRice said:


> Earning a Black Belt at age 13 should be the main concern.



Why?

Just FYI, I speak as a teacher of mostly kids in American TKD and I have some also in the my FMA program.   But if the kid knows the material and can perform it to the schools standards why shouldn't they rank as a black belt?

I have no illusions that my young black belts are going to beat up a grown adult.   However I have seen grown adults on black belt tests (sitting as a board member) when defending against weapons (simulated training blades) grab the blade or not be aware of the weapon and do some crazy stuff as self defense (that could get them killed).   Yet if my student is able to defend themselves and not make the same mistakes why is that not good enough?

I mean where do we think that a black belt is only when a person is able to spar or beat adults.   We expect adults to defeat their peers (other adults) why is it not OK for younger students to defend against their peers.

One of my students got to train in our associations Kobudo program at 11, they made an exception for her cause I thought and told the senior instructors that she was 12, the cut off age was 13.   She was 1st brown (red belt for us) at the time.  She was the smallest student out of 40+ men and women and teens, multi dan black belts and brown belts.  She held her own and at the end of the 3 yr program, she along with the 15 others who lasted tested for 1st dan.  She was rated as having the best exam of the group.   Granted she didn't have to do bo vs bo sparring (although she does padded weapon spar in my classes), nor did anyone else for that matter, but she knew all of the material and performed right along with the adults and older teens.

If a school wants a certain age for black belts that's fine, but if others have different age requirements, I don't see it as a problem.


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## FriedRice (Oct 21, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> Why?
> 
> Just FYI, I speak as a teacher of mostly kids in American TKD and I have some also in the my FMA program.   But if the kid knows the material and can perform it to the schools standards why shouldn't they rank as a black belt?
> 
> I have no illusions that my young black belts are going to beat up a grown adult.



This is why.



> However I have seen grown adults on black belt tests (sitting as a board member) when defending against weapons (simulated training blades) grab the blade or not be aware of the weapon and do some crazy stuff as self defense (that could get them killed).   Yet if my student is able to defend themselves and not make the same mistakes why is that not good enough?



No. Neither of them should be getting BB's.



> I mean where do we think that a black belt is only when a person is able to spar or beat adults.   We expect adults to defeat their peers (other adults) why is it not OK for younger students to defend against their peers.



Cheapens the BB.



> One of my students got to train in our associations Kobudo program at 11, they made an exception for her cause I thought and told the senior instructors that she was 12, the cut off age was 13.   She was 1st brown (red belt for us) at the time.  She was the smallest student out of 40+ men and women and teens, multi dan black belts and brown belts.  She held her own and at the end of the 3 yr program, she along with the 15 others who lasted tested for 1st dan.  She was rated as having the best exam of the group.   Granted she didn't have to do bo vs bo sparring (although she does padded weapon spar in my classes), nor did anyone else for that matter, but she knew all of the material and performed right along with the adults and older teens.
> 
> If a school wants a certain age for black belts that's fine, but if others have different age requirements, I don't see it as a problem.



Then you wonder why TMA Black belts are rarely respected since 1993, when UFC 01 debuted.


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## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> I wouldn't be happy either if he was *given* a black belt.  But I wouldn't be upset if he earned his black belt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like you, I don't have a problem with an early teen getting a BB. But it is under a very, very narrow set of circumstances and should be an exception, not the norm. Each of us who have taught for some time have had those exceptional kids who could have an adult conversation with us at age 10. (Somewhere in my post you can find me talking about Mikey Hickerson.) However, we have also had many, many, many kids who were more than able to physically perform the curriculum. 
To me, being able to pass a black belt exam is much more than checking boxes to say they performed a technique adequately. Even it they memorize a bunch of language and history, there are esoteric things that should be just as  apparent to the testing board as it is to the student's instructor. Being able to perform with a group of kids one year older in a special program is impressive. But why did you let the kid into the program? On their physical merit? Part of the beauty and grace of youth is the body's abilities when young. On physical merit alone most kids will out perform adults. Put them under pressure of any kind and the scales quickly flip. This is an example of a qualifier for being ready to test for BB. If we all did it on physical ability alone a black belt would be meaningless.


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Then you wonder why TMA Black belts are rarely respected since 1993, when UFC 01 debuted.




Oh my, you actually believe that. I think you have misunderstood the actual reaction to that first promotion, and what people thought of it.


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## FriedRice (Oct 22, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Oh my, you actually believe that. I think you have misunderstood the actual reaction to that first promotion, and what people thought of it.



moooooo


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## FriedRice (Oct 22, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Oh my, you actually believe that. I think you have misunderstood the actual reaction to that first promotion, and what people thought of it.



quack


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## WaterGal (Oct 22, 2018)

If you have such a problem with junior black belts that you're going to berate the kids who received them in front of their peers at a seminar.... then _don't agree to teach a seminar_ at a school that awards junior black belts. Problem solved! (Why a person would take out their annoyance on the poor student instead of the person who awarded the belt and set the standard, though, is beyond me. That's just bullying at that point.)


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> Why a person would take out their annoyance on the poor student instead of the person who awarded the belt and set the standard, though, is beyond me.




Easier to go at the student, there's a risk the instructor would smack him.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it didn't seem based on the fact he was a young black belt, and nor did he have any attitude. I would understand if he was showing disrespect that the instructor would call him up on it, but that wasn't the case.. was just deflating, and wasn't motivating or encouraging.



I have met instructors like that. The thing is there are some guys who thrive under those conditions. Like in a fight you will see a corner man yelling at a fighter. 

But I am not a fan.

And thankfully my coach doesn't really behave like that.
(I mean there are moments. But I do a tough sport and everyone has a blow up now and then)


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 22, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Easier to go at the student, there's a risk the instructor would smack him.



Id crotch kick them, what do you mean?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> ... went to a seminar today and there were 3 instructors, two were guests. One of which I considered to be not so great an instructor at all... sounds similar to the OP situation.
> 
> Called out a 13 year old black belt (amongst others) and asked them to demonstrate particular sequences, called them basically crap, 'ranked' them 3.5/10, and said he's going back to his dojo and he's going to have to tell them that this dojo doesn't show much 'spirit'. To a 13 year old.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's pretty inexcusable, whatever the motivation. Instructors are human - even high-ranking ones - and sometimes they let their flaws have free reign. And some of them seriously don't know how to teach to the person they need to teach to. If, as Tez suggests, this was a commentary on the age of the belt-holder, that's something to take up with the person who promoted them. Otherwise, you're complaining about prices to the person running the register - they have no control over that crap.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it didn't seem based on the fact he was a young black belt, and nor did he have any attitude. I would understand if he was showing disrespect that the instructor would call him up on it, but that wasn't the case.. was just deflating, and wasn't motivating or encouraging.


Sometimes, it's actually based on something else. The instructor is trying to make a point (and may or may not be making it), but is doing it in an inappropriate way. I ran into that with a senior instructor who had a problem with something I posted online once, and he used me as an example in some demos at a seminar, making comments and being rougher than necessary. Thing is, he hadn't yet told me he was unhappy with me, so it just left me confused and pissed with him. Still am, actually.


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## dvcochran (Oct 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, that's pretty inexcusable, whatever the motivation. Instructors are human - even high-ranking ones - and sometimes they let their flaws have free reign. And some of them seriously don't know how to teach to the person they need to teach to. If, as Tez suggests, this was a commentary on the age of the belt-holder, that's something to take up with the person who promoted them. Otherwise, you're complaining about prices to the person running the register - they have no control over that crap.



Agreed. This whole thread could be a teaching moment for all instructors. Knowing something and being able to teach it to someone else is an Art in and of itself. If you are a school owner, some assumption can be made that you can and have taught enough to have good competency. Sadly, that is not an absolute. Just because you are good at your MA and "really, really" get off on standing in front of class, you "really, really" need to think differently. Holding a black belt comes with the responsibility of teaching those of lower rank, sometimes higher possibly. If we do not make sure that this is understood and nurtured, things like what happened to the OP will continue to happen. A big part of the dilution of most MA's.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 23, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Easier to go at the student, there's a risk the instructor would smack him.



That may be the saddest part.  That instructor may have picked on the student because he didn't have the fortitude to speak to the school owner.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Agreed. This whole thread could be a teaching moment for all instructors. Knowing something and being able to teach it to someone else is an Art in and of itself. If you are a school owner, some assumption can be made that you can and have taught enough to have good competency. Sadly, that is not an absolute. Just because you are good at your MA and "really, really" get off on standing in front of class, you "really, really" need to think differently. Holding a black belt comes with the responsibility of teaching those of lower rank, sometimes higher possibly. If we do not make sure that this is understood and nurtured, things like what happened to the OP will continue to happen. A big part of the dilution of most MA's.


I'll toss in a corollary that's related to your post but unrelated to the OP's situation: we need to remember we can still learn from folks with lower ranks, too. Too often in TMA (as I've experienced it), teaching and learning is one-directional. That's screwed up. I try to make a point of learning something from folks with less experience than me. And some folks with lower rank have experience in areas I don't. And I try to make sure they (and others) get to actually see me learning from them - to set the example that it's okay if someone gives you help even though they've not reached your rank. Sometimes, it's someone who only has a year or two in an art who sees what those of us with many years aren't seeing.


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## Mark Lynn (Oct 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Like you, I don't have a problem with an early teen getting a BB. But it is under a very, very narrow set of circumstances and should be an exception, not the norm.



Agreed



dvcochran said:


> Each of us who have taught for some time have had those exceptional kids who could have an adult conversation with us at age 10. (Somewhere in my post you can find me talking about Mikey Hickerson.) However, we have also had many, many, many kids who were more than able to physically perform the curriculum.



True, and I have sat on tests where under those schools rules those students are allowed to test and passed, they earn their rank under that schools rules.  Under my school generally the student learns to perform their forms, kicks , and they can fight.   However they also spend time learning to defend against weapons, more self defense type material, etc. etc. which takes away time from perfecting kata, perfecting the side kick, being great point fighting competitors etc. etc. 



dvcochran said:


> To me, being able to pass a black belt exam is much more than checking boxes to say they performed a technique adequately. Even it they memorize a bunch of language and history, there are esoteric things that should be just as  apparent to the testing board as it is to the student's instructor.



I agree, which is why I closely watch my students in how they treat each other, how they spar (do they lose control of themselves, are they bullies when sparing with a weaker or younger students, do they show respect to each other, do they give up or preserver  etc. etc.



dvcochran said:


> Being able to perform with a group of kids one year older in a special program is impressive. But why did you let the kid into the program? On their physical merit?



You misunderstood I think.

I asked my seniors (who were the senior teachers, my instructor and the founder of the organization) if she could join the program when it started again.   At that time she was 11, I thought she was 12, I asked for permission because I knew she could handle it and it would be good for her to train with adults, and so she could learn from some other senior instructors and have to adapt to a more rigid training environment (dojo rules different from my own, Japanese terms instead of English etc. etc.)  She was getting ready for black belt in my system and had already been studying Kobudo under me, which was what she would be learning from them as well.

The program was also a 3 yr commitment and a basic 4 hr. time commitment (1 hr drive each way, 2 hr. class) once a month, on top of my normal Saturday classes of 3 hours.   But she and 5 of my other students wanted to do it.  She and 2 of my other students (my adult assistant instructors) stuck it out and ultimately tested for black belt in Kobudo under the association.

That sessions class started with 45 students; from multi dan black belts all the way down to 4th browns, adults and teens from across our association's schools in the area.  Kimberly at the time was a red (1st brown) belt and was the youngest and smallest person out of the group.  Only 15 people stuck it out (made it through the program) and tested for Shodan. 

When I went through the program two sessions before I and another instructor were the highest ranked going through the exam and he was in his mid 50's and I in my late 40's so it wasn't just a bunch of students one year older than her.



dvcochran said:


> Part of the beauty and grace of youth is the body's abilities when young. On physical merit alone most kids will out perform adults. *Put them under pressure of any kind and the scales quickly flip. This is an example of a qualifier for being ready to test for BB. If we all did it on physical ability alone a black belt would be meaningless.*



I agree 

But this is why I mentioned this in the first place.  Kimberly was under the same if not more pressure than the adults in that class because, just like in my classes where she came up the youngest in the advanced class and had to fight, do weapons defense and self defense material against boys and girls who were older and larger, and now she was going mainly against grown men and women.  She had developed not only a love for the martial arts, but she developed a fighting spirit as well by always being the smallest.  So she learned to hit hard she took her training just as seriously as adults.

Long before her test I would get comments passed to me by other instructors (black belts) in that class about how hard she would hit the BOB with her Bo doing drills or their Bo when doing contact drills.  Her spirit and ability came out during her test and it was why as a 14 yr old she was mentioned as having the best test out of the 15 black and brown belt students.

It is more than just physical ability like in taking a karate test (just using this as an example) and demonstrating your forms, kicks, basics, etc. etc.    Here there was this as well, but control is even more important when a 6ft Bo is coming towards your head and you have to move and block then return a counter strike to a person's head.  Or do the same for sai, nunchaku, and tonfa.

So back to my original post, If a young student can meet the requirements and is ready, I don't see a problem with the student being young.   Even if it is the exception to the rule or they are an exceptional student.   Not everyone puts in the time and effort to earn their black belt, if a young student does, I believe it cheapens their martial arts training to say everyone needs to be a certain age across the globe to earn their rank and to make it out like they didn't earn it.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Oct 23, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> This is why.



Maybe I'm dense here, but are you referring to your final comment?    The one about the UFC.  Is that why?  Was that your main point?  Or was it because I teach kids?   

Do you believe kids have anything to gain in the training of TMAs?   Or should it just be for adults?

Are you an instructor? 

Do you teach others?



FriedRice said:


> No. Neither of them should be getting BB's.



So on the exam the person does every thing correctly except one area, say in this case weapons defense.  They sparred great, beating up kids and adults, won every round, did the 100 man kumutie, you name it but they screw up on one area you believe they failed?

Could they not just have their senior instructor go over that material more for the person for 2nd dan? 



FriedRice said:


> Cheapens the BB.



By whose standards?   Yours?  I'm just wondering who made you the supreme authority and what every school should be?



FriedRice said:


> Then you wonder why TMA Black belts are rarely respected since 1993, when UFC 01 debuted.



I don't wonder why, I don't fight in the UFC, I have no interest in MMA (in the mixed martial arts sports world that is).   I don't care about why people don't like TMAs on forums like this.

Seriously the only reason why I chimed in here on this discussion, was the people saying that since the OPs son was a young black belt then that was the problem.  It's the kid's fault, his instructor, and his associations fault because he is young and they promoted him to the glorious black belt.  That's the problem.  Like if he was older than he wouldn't have had the problem because well he would have been an adult or as if somehow turning 16 makes you eligible in the worlds eyes to be a black belt or something.

If that is the school's requirements than that's fine, it is what it is.  If it is the association's requirements that's fine again,it is what it is.  But to make it everyone's requirement that a student must fit into the idea that another person's holds (on an internet forum) is nuts.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 24, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> Maybe I'm dense here, but are you referring to your final comment?    The one about the UFC.  Is that why?  Was that your main point?  Or was it because I teach kids?
> 
> Do you believe kids have anything to gain in the training of TMAs?   Or should it just be for adults?
> 
> ...



Being a BB should include the ability to beat up many adults (not just a few) was my main point. I'll even go as far as saying that a BB should be able to beat the hell out of most average adults. 

And yes, I teach...but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. 



> So on the exam the person does every thing correctly except one area, say in this case weapons defense.  They sparred great, beating up kids and adults, won every round, did the 100 man kumutie, you name it but they screw up on one area you believe they failed?



If that area that they failed being, not able to beat up adults of lower ranked belts. You know what I meant.



> Could they not just have their senior instructor go over that material more for the person for 2nd dan?
> 
> By whose standards?   Yours?  I'm just wondering who made you the supreme authority and what every school should be?



By what most people who don't train in MA, usually thinks when they hear that someone's a Black Belt.  Pre-1993/UFC, BB's were well respected, mostly based on such myths. Notice how the OP of this thread seems to be this exact person. After UFC 1-4, most of these myths were dispelled. 

BJJ actually brought back real respect for the belt system, but strip mall McDojos keep on handing out belts to little kids for that $$$$$$.



> I don't wonder why, I don't fight in the UFC, I have no interest in MMA (in the mixed martial arts sports world that is).   I don't care about why people don't like TMAs on forums like this.



You seem to care a lot as you're typing essays, talking to me about it when it's quite clear that I'm this exact, MMA person who "don't like TMAs on forums like this", that you're complaining about. 



> Seriously the only reason why I chimed in here on this discussion, was the people saying that since the OPs son was a young black belt then that was the problem.  It's the kid's fault, his instructor, and his associations fault because he is young and they promoted him to the glorious black belt.  That's the problem.  Like if he was older than he wouldn't have had the problem because well he would have been an adult or as if somehow turning 16 makes you eligible in the worlds eyes to be a black belt or something.
> 
> If that is the school's requirements than that's fine, it is what it is.  If it is the association's requirements that's fine again,it is what it is.  But to make it everyone's requirement that a student must fit into the idea that another person's holds (on an internet forum) is nuts.



McDojo?


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## dvcochran (Oct 24, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Being a BB should include the ability to beat up many adults (not just a few) was my main point. I'll even go as far as saying that a BB should be able to beat the hell out of most average adults.
> 
> And yes, I teach...but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
> 
> ...




Man, that was the worst answers I have ever heard, on or off this forum. I get it, you are passionate about MMA. Until you can back up your arguments with more than a loose opinion about how MMA saved the credibility of all Martial Arts (ridiculous), expect to be challenged. It is a forum, a place to share ideas and opinions, you know. With an attitude like that you will get your *** handed to you sooner rather than later. It would be funny to be there.


----------



## Buka (Oct 24, 2018)

The dad that started this thread is yet to come back. Makes me rethink it all.
I peg him as "one of those parents."

Maybe the thread should have been titled _"Pain in the butt parents. We all encounter them."_


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## dvcochran (Oct 24, 2018)

Buka said:


> The dad that started this thread is yet to come back. Makes me rethink it all.
> I peg him as "one of those parents."
> 
> Maybe the thread should have been titled _"Pain in the butt parents. We all encounter them."_


I was referring to @FriedRice 's last post.


----------



## Buka (Oct 24, 2018)

I've taught a lot of kids in my day. And I'd say that ninety nine percent of parents were good people.

But there have been some I still can't wrap my head around. I mean Crazy with a capital C.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 24, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Man, that was the worst answers I have ever heard, on or off this forum. I get it, you are passionate about MMA. Until you can back up your arguments with more than a loose opinion about how MMA saved the credibility of all Martial Arts (ridiculous), expect to be challenged.



My comment was mostly about attaining the level of Black Belt. It should mean certain things and one being, you should be able to kick a lot of ***.  The early UFC's dispelled a lot of the hocus pocus of TMA that was all over the place during the 80's & 90's....this cannot be denied. I remember as a kid, when hearing someone's a BB....that must automatically mean that he's a bad***.



> It is a forum, a place to share ideas and opinions, you know. With an attitude like that you will get your *** handed to you sooner rather than later. It would be funny to be there.



What do you mean? Like get my *** handed to me in person or something? I'm always up for that.

But  was what I said, that bad? I really didn't mean to come off that way.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> The early UFC's dispelled a lot of the hocus pocus of TMA that was all over the place during the 80's & 90's.



Most of the stuff around in the 80s and 90s was about kickboxing, it was the fashionable style then, along with the Jackie Chan style of 'fighting'. Kids wanted to be ninjas_ à la _Ninja turtles. Little was said about the traditional arts. Aikido got a look in because of Steven Segal. 
The early UFCs didn't make a huge splash at the time, they only look 'groundbreaking' in hindsight. they were specifically designed to showcase BJJ and the Gracies. 
If you'd been around then of course you would know this but looking at the UFC through rose tinted glasses is not the best way to actually judge what went on then and still goes on. Of course though is you want to keep looking as if you are merely a fanboy rather than someone with depth and experience of MMA then carry on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> My comment was mostly about attaining the level of Black Belt. It should mean certain things and one being, you should be able to kick a lot of ***.  The early UFC's dispelled a lot of the hocus pocus of TMA that was all over the place during the 80's & 90's....this cannot be denied. I remember as a kid, when hearing someone's a BB....that must automatically mean that he's a bad***.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's your expectation of what it should mean. That's mostly, IMO, based upon marketing and media from the 770's and 80's. The BB should mean exactly what a given system says it means. If someone decides BB is their first rank, because they want to demystify it, and they use pink as their "expert" rank, that's not wrong - it's just odd to us because we have an expectation of what BB should be.

To be clear, my personal expectation isn't far from yours. But that's just my expectation, and I don't get to be the arbiter of "should".


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## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Most of the stuff around in the 80s and 90s was about kickboxing, it was the fashionable style then, along with the Jackie Chan style of 'fighting'. Kids wanted to be ninjas_ à la _Ninja turtles. Little was said about the traditional arts. Aikido got a look in because of Steven Segal.



Wrong. 80's and 90's was mostly TKD and Karate. Karate's not TMA now? That was when Karate Kid came out and then the sequels. Then Joon Rhee took a big piece with his "nobody bothers me" schtick. Hardly anyone idolized Kickboxers other than mostly those who fought; even if it's just the sporty flavor of Karate choppin'. Most of the McDojo culture of today was started by these 80's & 90's strip mall joints.



> The early UFCs didn't make a huge splash at the time, they only look 'groundbreaking' in hindsight. they were specifically designed to showcase BJJ and the Gracies.



False.  It was meant to prove which TMA worked and which were **** ****.  Secondarily, it further wanted to answer the question of grappler vs. standup striker. It could have gone either way. Gracie could have gotten KTFO by standup strikers and look like an idiot. If it was meant to specifically showcase BJJ and the Gracies, then why didn't they put more Gracies/BJJ in rather than just ONE, to increase their chances?  Why did Gracie quit fighting after just 5 UFCs; less than 2 years after it all started? UFC was paying $50-60k for one night of fighting. This is more than what most Pro Kickboxers made in a year.  Why didn't a ton more of Gracies enter the UFC after Royce stopped fighting there? UFC 6 and up to Maurice Smith, was mostly a bunch of Wrestlers and BJJ but from other Brazilian camps. Did the Gracies meant to promote their competitors from Brazil too?



> If you'd been around then of course you would know this but looking at the UFC through rose tinted glasses is not the best way to actually judge what went on then and still goes on. Of course though is you want to keep looking as if you are merely a fanboy rather than someone with depth and experience of MMA then carry on.



Unfortunately, I'm probably almost as old as you are, which is nothing to be proud of really.    You trying to say that you fought MMA? Or maybe just a fangirl, helping out with the bucket but taking extra credit for it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Hardly anyone idolized Kickboxers other than mostly those who fought




You are only speaking for your culture, you know little of much outside it. 
It's amusing when you assume I'm lying because what I say doesn't correlate with what you think. Never mind you are a hero in your own lunchtime, I expect that's enough.

As for MMA, if you don't know by now what I do ( everyone else here does) then I'm not going to bore the other posters by reiterating my martial arts CV. Yours I have no interest in.


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## FriedRice (Oct 25, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> You are only speaking for your culture, you know little of much outside it.
> It's amusing when you assume I'm lying because what I say doesn't correlate with what you think. Never mind you are a hero in your own lunchtime, I expect that's enough.
> 
> As for MMA, if you don't know by now what I do ( everyone else here does) then I'm not going to bore the other posters by reiterating my martial arts CV. Yours I have no interest in.



Does it start with Ring and ends with something that sounds like "Earl"?


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Does it start with Ring and ends with something that sounds like "Earl"?



I've no idea what you are talking about. It pertains to your culture not mine, obviously.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 30, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I'm sorry to hear this and I feel bad for your son. I would start by telling your son that this is a lesson on life.  Some people are just jerks, even karate instructors.


Especially karate instructors, in some cases. Just take Sensei John Kreese as an example. Now, he's obviously a movie character but there are instructors just like him in real life.


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## CB Jones (Oct 30, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Does it start with Ring and ends with something that sounds like "Earl"?



@Tez3  a ring girl?????

Tez...you been holding out....lol


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## Headhunter (Oct 30, 2018)

Tbh this has become redundant since the op never came back. Obviously wasn't that big a deal


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> @Tez3  a ring girl?????
> 
> Tez...you been holding out....lol




ah if only! My daughter did ring girl for us a couple of times when she was younger. she also trained and liked beating the guys up, at first they humoured her but that didn't last long! I got stuck reffing, judging, cornering etc, she's much better looking than I am though!


 

she scrubs up well though!


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## _Simon_ (Oct 30, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Tbh this has become redundant since the op never came back. Obviously wasn't that big a deal


Yeah it's unfortunate when a new poster will post once, there'll be a big discussion, but we never hear back from them nor even know if it helped...

At least we all learned something from the thread anyways I'm sure


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