# Lineage



## LawDog (Mar 25, 2007)

A martial arts system is defined by the "interpertations" that have been placed onto it's own preset material, not by the material itself.
Interpertations = Concepts / Tactical Theory.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2007)

OK but how does this connect to lineage?

Lineage the line of descendants of a particular ancestor; family; race. 

Or in the case of martial arts the line of descendants of a particular teacher.


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## LawDog (Mar 26, 2007)

Yes I agree, lineage is a line of descendants. If a senior rank breaks away from his senior and maintains the systems preset material as learned then his students would be listed under the same system as he is. If he changes the concepts/application of/tactical theory of the preset material then system is not the same as when originally learned. Now you have a new system. The lineage line would still be the same except the break away Instructor students would be listed under another style.
The point being, you do not have to change the material to have a new system, if this is done then a new system has to be added into the lineage.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 26, 2007)

But do not most instructors put their own emphases and ideas into what they have been taught? Is the adding a few techniques or a different idea of technique or form really starting a new lineage


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Yes I agree, lineage is a line of descendants. If a senior rank breaks away from his senior and maintains the systems preset material as learned then his students would be listed under the same system as he is. If he changes the concepts/application of/tactical theory of the preset material then system is not the same as when originally learned. Now you have a new system. The lineage line would still be the same except the break away Instructor students would be listed under another style.
> The point being, you do not have to change the material to have a new system, if this is done then a new system has to be added into the lineage.


 
Yes that is generally how a completely new style starts

Xingyiquan became Yiquan, entirely different system (kinda) but can still trace it's lineage back to Xingyiquan

However there can be breaks within a system that constitute a different system within a system the various Taiji styles, Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Hao, Sun, Etc or the various Xingyiquan styles Hebei, Shanxi and Henan for example. They can have very different approaches to things even though they maintain the same lineage.


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## stickarts (Mar 26, 2007)

Just looking at a printed lineage chart can definately be tricky. When a student asks for mine I also include an explaination with it since many different teachers contributed to what i teach. Depending upon how things occur, sometimes the ones ranking you may not even be the ones that have taught you the most!
I use a lineage as a general flow chart as to how knowledge was passed down.


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## LawDog (Mar 26, 2007)

TShadowChaser,
It is generally agreed upon that the changing of a few presets does not constitute a new system. 
* a major change with the presets should occur,
and / or
* the concepts and tactical theory within the presets should occur system wide.
Here is an examle of a preset being the same but the concepts behind it being changed.
The general preset - a five pattern impact pattern followed by a single pattern throw.
System A:
The 5 pattern impacts are the primary indended technique, they are used to inflict heavy damage. The single pattern throw is being used to off balance and take out of position your opponent so that you could either, continue impacting or apply any other follow up.
This is one of the signature concepts that is found in many Kenpo systems.
System B:
Using the same pattern technique as in "system A".
The five pattern impacting is used to just soften up your opponent so that you can move in to execute your primary intended move, the throw. This throw is used as a heavy impact type throw that will cause major damage to your opponent. This will keep him off balance and out of position.
This is one of the signature concepts that is used in many of the older traditional types of Jujitsu systems.

When the concepts of similar pattern presets are change through the entire system then the system changes. Many Instructors do use their own thoughts reguarding the material but they usually stay within the guidelines of their systems concepts/tactical theory. 
Have a good day,
:ultracool


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 26, 2007)

Some of the politics in the Filipino systems have cracked me up for some simple reasons. They'll all do pretty much the same thing. But there was a time when guys were differentiating their systems over minutae. 

One school would train the heck out of an inside line counter to a #1, countering high to the head or neck; another high and inside, but to the wrist; another low and outsode to the knee, while someone else went low and outside to just above or below the knee. And they would argue like heck that they were as different from each other as night and day. 

I've never trained in Modern Arnis in my life, but did do Arnis and Esckrima under some guys from the Phillipines. I saw a clip here on MT of I think it was Dan Anderson doing some machete patterns. It could have been an old home movie from my old training; super similar. But the die-hards will argue "different" til the cows come home.

How different are the differences, most often, really?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Mar 26, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Some of the politics in the Filipino systems have cracked me up for some simple reasons. They'll all do pretty much the same thing. But there was a time when guys were differentiating their systems over minutae.
> 
> One school would train the heck out of an inside line counter to a #1, countering high to the head or neck; another high and inside, but to the wrist; another low and outsode to the knee, while someone else went low and outside to just above or below the knee. And they would argue like heck that they were as different from each other as night and day.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah I hear ya! Just like EPAK and 5.0....  Oh, wait a minute....


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## Carol (Mar 26, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Some of the politics in the Filipino systems have cracked me up for some simple reasons. They'll all do pretty much the same thing. But there was a time when guys were differentiating their systems over minutae.
> 
> One school would train the heck out of an inside line counter to a #1, countering high to the head or neck; another high and inside, but to the wrist; another low and outsode to the knee, while someone else went low and outside to just above or below the knee. And they would argue like heck that they were as different from each other as night and day.
> 
> ...



But the flip side is...if its too similar then there risks cries of piracy, which is a charge that was recently levied by one FMA GM to another.


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## HKphooey (Mar 26, 2007)

But yet there are numerous agruements on MT and KT that so and so are no teaching Parker Kenpo.  With the reasoning so far, I would say we all are!  The basic principles are still there (even when we change the name).


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 26, 2007)

HKphooey said:


> But yet there are numerous agruements on MT and KT that so and so are no teaching Parker Kenpo. With the reasoning so far, I would say we all are! The basic principles are still there (even when we change the name).


 
I agree. My user-name here is what I and my little crew nick-named our little version. We added a heavy influence on kickboxing, judo, BJJ, and modern weapons training (handguns, domestic rifles), and Japanese swordsmanship, and asserted an emphasis on banging HARD with our kenpo techs. Still, we do kenpo. We just try really hard to crack you, instead of slap you, and end with extensions that throw you to the floor and finish you, instead of coverouts. And 3rd brown to black is weighted more on your shooting skills and folding knife capabilities, then on your form in a long form. 

But to people who stop by and watch, it's still kenpo. Each "ryu" may do their own little brand, and some may be better in certain contexts than others, but kenpo still be kenpo. Are they all created equal? Heck no. But it's all still kenpo.

D.


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 28, 2007)

My school is independant, in the sense that I have the final decision of what is in the curriculum along with my wife, Professor Kathy. I don't refer to what I teach as my own style or system per se but like Ed Parker once stated: "Every Kenpo Black Belt is a style within themselves, so it's more my prespective and it is very, very close to what others have taught me in the past with, of course some of my own spin or twist to it with certain additions and modifications. 

However, what makes what we do a little unique and interesting is this. Professor Cerio put this idea in my head a long time ago. He and SGM. George Pesare simply refers to it as American Ken/mpo Karate. Mr. Cerio said I was very lucky to have trained under the three men responsible for the founding and/or propagation of the original New England Kenpo/Kempo Karate. I got to expereince, first hand, right from the source the teachings of George Pesare (New England founder), Nick Cerio and Fred Villari (all the same Kenpo/Kempo family or direct lineage, Pesare taught Cerio and Cerio taught Villari). 

So, at my school, the students are exposed to all three prespectives, not diluted through generations of black belts but right from the source to me and to them. Professors Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant also share this experience. This is the MAIN difference in my school along with the addition of my extensive training in Police Defensive Tactics as a veteran LEO instructor for a street reality effect. - Joe


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## kidswarrior (Mar 28, 2007)

Joe Shuras said:


> My school is independant, in the sense that I have the final decision of what is in the curriculum along with my wife, Professor Kathy. I don't refer to what I teach as my own style or system per se but like Ed Parker once stated: "Every Kenpo Black Belt is a style within themselves, so it's more my prespective and it is very, very close to what others have taught me in the past with, of course some of my own spin or twist to it with certain additions and modifications.
> 
> However, what makes what we do a little unique and interesting is this. Professor Cerio put this idea in my head a long time ago. He and SGM. George Pesare simply refers to it as American Ken/mpo Karate. Mr. Cerio said I was very lucky to have trained under the three men responsible for the founding and/or propagation of the original New England Kenpo/Kempo Karate. I got to expereince, first hand, right from the source the teachings of George Pesare (New England founder), Nick Cerio and Fred Villari (all the same Kenpo/Kempo family or direct lineage, Pesare taught Cerio and Cerio taught Villari).
> 
> So, at my school, the students are exposed to all three prespectives, not diluted through generations of black belts but right from the source to me and to them. Professors Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant also share this experience. This is the MAIN difference in my school along with the addition of my extensive training in Police Defensive Tactics as a veteran LEO instructor for a street reality effect. - Joe


 
Makes a lot of sense.


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## Joe Shuras (Mar 28, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Makes a lot of sense.


 
Thank you, sir.


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## kosho (May 18, 2007)

Nice.

Kosho


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