# Dynamic Chi Sau



## futsaowingchun (Aug 27, 2015)

A short clip of a Chi Sao session with one of my students. I like to show how the student can get in on the teacher. I was a bit off this day on my game, but my student at times bested me..


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## geezer (Aug 27, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> ....I was a bit off this day on my game, but my student at times bested me..



Yes he did. And yet you posted the video....

I take that to mean that you take as much pride in being a good teacher as in being good at your art. An admirable quality in a Sifu.


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## JPinAZ (Aug 27, 2015)

I agree with geezer that it is a sign of a good teacher to not be afraid to show a student getting the better of you.

I posted this on the other forum you put the video up on but wanted to share here as well. You may have been off due to a disconnect with your hands and your feet. Watching the clip, your root/footwork is lacking/disconnected from what your hands are doing (often rear foot's heal coming up/on your toes, leaning on your front foot, no solid base, etc).


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## wckf92 (Aug 27, 2015)

Wow... that has got to be the laziest bong Sao I've ever seen.
Anyway, were you intentionally letting him through? It seems like you were both "not on your horse".
Thanks for posting the video... but I would work on more sealing off while attacking and less chasing hand.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 27, 2015)

geezer said:


> Yes he did. And yet you posted the video....
> 
> I take that to mean that you take as much pride in being a good teacher as in being good at your art. An admirable quality in a Sifu.



I'm happy if my student can do well. I hope he can far surpass me someday.  He is improving faster then me, so I think that is a good thing.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 28, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> I agree with geezer that it is a sign of a good teacher to not be afraid to show a student getting the better of you.
> 
> I posted this on the other forum you put the video up on but wanted to share here as well. You may have been off due to a disconnect with your hands and your feet. Watching the clip, your root/footwork is lacking/disconnected from what your hands are doing (often rear foot's heal coming up/on your toes, leaning on your front foot, no solid base, etc).




I agree..I felt at the time uncoordinated.Definitely not at my best..


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I'm happy if my student can do well. I hope he can far surpass me someday.  He is improving faster then me, so I think that is a good thing.



If more sifus felt this way, the art would only improve. BTW had a similar session with one of my students recently. Yeah, I wasn't really on top of my game that night. No matter, I was really proud of his progress. The golden rule applies here: teach openly and honestly, the way you would like to be taught.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 28, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Wow... that has got to be the laziest bong Sao I've ever seen.
> Anyway, were you intentionally letting him through? It seems like you were both "not on your horse".
> Thanks for posting the video... but I would work on more sealing off while attacking and less chasing hand.



There was a few times when I would let him attack first when he trapped my hand around 2:05 min When I chi sao with my students I let then make their move and I may only block and not counter so they can practice there moves on me then i will take it up a bit where they will feel a bit unconfortable to push them and make them work harder. So its like a give and take. Thats how my teacher did it with me so I just do it the same way when I'm teaching.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 28, 2015)

geezer said:


> If more sifus felt this way, the art would only improve. BTW had a similar session with one of my students recently. Yeah, I wasn't really on top of my game that night. No matter, I was really proud of his progress. The golden rule applies here: teach openly and honestly, the way you would like to be taught.



I agree, If we teach openly and honestly the students and the art will do well.


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## LFJ (Aug 28, 2015)

Why, @1:37, do you instruct him to stop punching you in the face and break your grip instead only to get hit in the face by you?  Not the best teaching moment there, I think...


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## LFJ (Aug 28, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> I posted this on the other forum you put the video up on but wanted to share here as well. You may have been off due to a disconnect with your hands and your feet. Watching the clip, your root/footwork is lacking/disconnected from what your hands are doing (often rear foot's heal coming up/on your toes, leaning on your front foot, no solid base, etc).



On the other forum he said his heals came up at times because his student is _shorter_ than him and he was leaning in. But the student is doing the same thing at times too, coming up on his toes in order to reach the _taller_ partner. So, that seems to be an issue on both sides.

Since the student is much smaller, when he pressures in, the student should work angling so as not to meet him head-on playing straight line with a larger force. Right now, the student is coming up on his toes, raising his COG, and extending his entire body upward in order to reach higher, which totally takes him out of his stance and then he moves in a straight line backward when his much larger partner comes in. There's no way for him to not get steamrolled like that.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 28, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Why, @1:37, do you instruct him to stop punching you in the face and break your grip instead only to get hit in the face by you?  Not the best teaching moment there, I think...



he could not reach me with hi punch because I was controlling him. When he went to break the grip I simple let go an continued the attach. I did not hit him I only placed my hand by his face.


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Why, @1:37, do you instruct him to stop punching you in the face and break your grip instead only to get hit in the face by you?  Not the best teaching moment there, I think...



Seems like you are making a lot of assumptions lately. Watch that again a bit more carefully, LFJ.

"Fut" playfully laps and pins his student's arm so that his student cannot hit him, holds him for an instant using just one hand to control him. When the student tries to break free, his energy goes wide of center, so "Fut" just circles his hand inside and springs forward to lightly touch him. It looks to me like they are both having fun.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2015)

Sheesh, if that is the same kid you have used in your other videos, its about time you got some payback 

Your nicer than the first guy I studied Wing Chun with, he'd smack you right in the face and thumb you in the chest. I'm not complaining mind you, just saying you're nicer...and I would appreciate it if you would not tell him...I do not want to get smacked in the face or thumped in the chest again


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## LFJ (Aug 29, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> he could not reach me with hi punch because I was controlling him.



Actually, I believe the reason was that he stepped back with his right leg, likely because he was afraid of something coming at his right side where he had no arm to defend. But he absolutely could have reached you with his punch, especially if he had just stepped in and did it.

This happened several other times. @0:27, @1:06... Had he stepped in and attacked each time, it would have been enough. The only time you did it effectively where he couldn't reach you was @1:17. There you actually turned him away so he couldn't face you at all. You affected his facing, his stance, everything... In the other cases, you just took one arm out of commission, but he was completely unaffected otherwise, as far as facing and stance. In those cases, there was no need to free his other hand. He could just step in and punch. That'll make you let go...



> When he went to break the grip I simple let go an continued the attach. I did not hit him I only placed my hand by his face.



I saw you gesture to his open hand, hinting that he should use it to break his other hand free. That takes both of his hands out of the game, while you just have to let go and strike. Of course you didn't hit him, but that is the equivalent of the outcome.



geezer said:


> "Fut" playfully laps and pins his student's arm so that his student cannot hit him, holds him for an instant using just one hand to control him.



It wasn't an effective pin, because it wasn't tight enough to affect his stance and actually restrict his movement. He was able to step forward or backward and maintain facing. He could have absolutely stepped in and hit. The only time the pin was effective was @1:17, where he was turned and pinned tightly so that he couldn't move.


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## geezer (Aug 29, 2015)

LFJ said:


> ...It wasn't an *effective *pin, because it wasn't tight enough to affect his stance and actually restrict his movement. He was able to step forward or backward and maintain facing. He could have absolutely stepped in and hit. The only time the pin was effective was @1:17, where he was turned and pinned tightly so that he couldn't move.



Yeah, good observations. That particular technique would have to be performed better, as you noted LFJ, disrupting facing and COG to be effective against a competent opponent _who wasn't his student. _

My comments were not meant as an endorsement of the technique precisely as executed, but as a response to your remarks in post #10 which seemed a bit overly critical and not as accurate to me. This analysis by contrast seems right on the money.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2015)

LFJ said:


> On the other forum he said his heals came up at times because his student is _shorter_ than him and he was leaning in. But the student is doing the same thing at times too, coming up on his toes in order to reach the _taller_ partner. So, that seems to be an issue on both sides.
> 
> Since the student is much smaller, when he pressures in, the student should work angling so as not to meet him head-on playing straight line with a larger force. Right now, the student is coming up on his toes, raising his COG, and extending his entire body upward in order to reach higher, which totally takes him out of his stance and then he moves in a straight line backward when his much larger partner comes in. There's no way for him to not get steamrolled like that.



This is from a Jow Ga perspective so I'm not sure if it would apply here.  If the student sinks his horse stance then he will have a better root.  Being lower from a better stance would shorten his sifu's reach.


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## LFJ (Aug 30, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is from a Jow Ga perspective so I'm not sure if it would apply here.  If the student sinks his horse stance then he will have a better root.  Being lower from a better stance would shorten his sifu's reach.



I agree. He was standing very tall and upright. His legs appeared to be standing straight and he often extended his body upward to reach over the taller partner. I agree he would do better to sink his stance and improve his mobility and angling especially.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 30, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Actually, I believe the reason was that he stepped back with his right leg, likely because he was afraid of something coming at his right side where he had no arm to defend. But he absolutely could have reached you with his punch, especially if he had just stepped in and did it.
> 
> This happened several other times. @0:27, @1:06... Had he stepped in and attacked each time, it would have been enough. The only time you did it effectively where he couldn't reach you was @1:17. There you actually turned him away so he couldn't face you at all. You affected his facing, his stance, everything... In the other cases, you just took one arm out of commission, but he was completely unaffected otherwise, as far as facing and stance. In those cases, there was no need to free his other hand. He could just step in and punch. That'll make you let go...
> 
> ...



My arm is longer then his so he could not reach me . if he tried to step in my arm would prevent him from doing so otherwise he would have done it but he knew it would not work.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> My arm is longer then his so he could not reach me . if he tried to step in my arm would prevent him from doing so otherwise he would have done it but he knew it would not work.


  In my style of kung fu (not Wing Chun) if your student had lowered his stance then your reach would have been shorten.  The proof of this is to stand facing a wall and extend your arm straight to wall until your fist touches it.  Your arm should be making a 90 degree angle with the wall. Now lower your arm and take note of the angle where your fist doesn't reach the wall. 

When I fight people with longer reaches, I'll lower my stance to help reduce their reach.


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## JPinAZ (Aug 31, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is from a Jow Ga perspective so I'm not sure if it would apply here.  If the student sinks his horse stance then he will have a better root.  Being lower from a better stance would shorten his sifu's reach.





LFJ said:


> I agree. He was standing very tall and upright. His legs appeared to be standing straight and he often extended his body upward to reach over the taller partner. I agree he would do better to sink his stance and improve his mobility and angling especially.



Agreed. Both the student and teacher had rooting/stance issues in a lot of instances. I do give credit to 'Fut' for being humble enough to admit to this as well for his part earlier in the thread.

IMO, it appears that bad habits could be being passed along and and the basics may be going overlooked once they get to the 'fun stuff' and start filming? I guess all risk getting 'comfortable' or 'lax' if we are not going thru peer pressure testing on at least a semi-regular basis. It might be a good time for both to go back and revisit basic footwork and stances. As soon as we get comfortable, that's when things start to slip. Even after 12+ years in the system, I still work the basics with my students as warms ups almost every class! 
It's a simple fix really, but a bit concerning to see from someone who is also often quick to tote 30+ years experience.


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## Jake104 (Aug 31, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> My arm is longer then his so he could not reach me . if he tried to step in my arm would prevent him from doing so otherwise he would have done it but he knew it would not work.


With proper angling it wouldn't matter if your arm is longer. How do I know this?    Cause I'm rad!
Besides that, in the system I train in DTE. We focus a lot on angling. With proper angling he can make up the difference and then some.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 31, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> In my style of kung fu (not Wing Chun) if your student had lowered his stance then your reach would have been shorten.  The proof of this is to stand facing a wall and extend your arm straight to wall until your fist touches it.  Your arm should be making a 90 degree angle with the wall. Now lower your arm and take note of the angle where your fist doesn't reach the wall.
> 
> When I fight people with longer reaches, I'll lower my stance to help reduce their reach.


 yes I know about this but I also can lower my stance at the same time.


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