# 15th Dan



## Albertus (Feb 11, 2008)

I am following this* rank obsession* within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dans (see my list below) that are growing like rabbits in the Bujinkan. I alone counted 58 of them and I am sure that I am not complete. You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days). And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age? It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan. Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.
And if someone can add more names to this list, please feel free to do so, just to be as complete as possible.

*15th Dan Bujinkan* :
Joseph Adriance - U.S.A.
Michael Asuncion - U.S.A.
Ernani Pinto Bastos - Portugal
SvenEric Bogsäter - Holland / Sweden
José Manuel Collado Valencia - Spain
José María Conejo - Spain
Arnaud Cousergue - France
Richard J. Van Donk - U.S.A.
Brian Duckers - U.K.
Jesús Equía - Spain
Robert Erhardt - Germany
Carlos Etchegaray - Argentina
Pedro Fleitas González - Spain
T(h)omas Franzén - Sweden
Robert Fraser - Japan
Steffen G. Fröhlich - Germany
Yost Fulton - U.S.A.
Sheila Haddad - U.S.A. / Germany (even a woman!)
Daniel Hernández - Brasil / Argentina
Jack E. Hoban - U.S.A.
Darren Horvarth - Autralia 
Robert F. Johnson - U.S.A.
Peter King - U.K.
Phillip Legare - U.S.A.
Ed Lomax - Australia / New Zealand
Diego López García - Spain
Carey D. "Bud" Malmstrom - U.S.A.
Ed(ward) H. Martin - U.S.A.
Kevin Millis - U.S.A.
Carlos Morales Páez - Spain
Brin(ley) Morgan - U.K.
Natasha Tomarkin Morgan - U.K. (wow another woman!)
Hiroshi Nagase - Japan
Toshiro Nagato - Japan
Keiji Nakadai - Japan
Moti Nativ - Israël
Yukio Noguchi - Japan
Koichi (Kohi) Oguri - Japan
Kim Oliveras - Spain
Craig Olson - Japan
Guillermo Lugo Pérez - Spain
Lubos Pokorny - Czech Republik
Keith Porter - U.K.
Jeff(rey) Prather - U.S.A.
Paco (Francisco) Rolán Belmonte - Spain
Enzo Rossi - Italy
Dean Rostohar - Croatia
Dale Seago - U.S.A.
Hideo Seno - Japan
Juan Manuel Serrano - Spain
Dick Severance - U.S.A.
Isamu Shiraishi - Japan
Norman Smithers - U.K.
Nikolaos Stefanidis - Germany
Larry Turner - U.S.A.
Mariëtte van der Vliet - Holland (and a third woman!)
Danny Waxman - Israël
Doug Wilson - Japan


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## Hayseed (Feb 11, 2008)

Albertus said:


> I am following this* rank obsession* within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dan.


 
Ever wonder if it's done like this to show how meaningless rank truly is.
Also, there is no "rank obsession" in the BJK, we don't flaunt our rank.  We don't walk around saying "I'm a shodan, look at me!"



> You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan.


 
Now you're getting it.


> It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan


 
It is a joke.  Unfortunately some don't get it



> Sheila Haddad - U.S.A. / Germany (even a woman!)
> 
> Natasha Tomarkin Morgan - U.K. (wow another woman!)
> 
> Mariëtte van der Vliet - Holland (and a third woman!)


 
Something wrong with women?


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## Shicomm (Feb 11, 2008)

Albertus said:


> I am following this* rank obsession* within the Bujinkan ...



So , basicly you're saying that everybody is chasing rank just because they're @ a certain level ?  Hmm.... 



> You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days).


and you can know it, right ?  ( don't think so... ) 



> And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age?


What's the problem by keep walking the path you always have ? 
Seems to me that you think that the path actually has a start  and a finish...  
If you think so....  well , you'll find out when you're done... 



> It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan.


Well thank you so much for that...  becoming a joke means that at least i'm funny right ?  



> Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.


Well, it's a bit tough to comment decently to a rather harsh statement isn't it ? 

You've been to Japan and trained with the various shihan ? 
If not ; please do so. You broad up your path and might see things a bit differently....
The truth might suprise you...  

I'd like to end up with a quote: 

_ It doesnt matter who you are, where you're from or what your rank is. We're in this together. If you're not in it for the love of the art ; would you please .....  ?!  ' Koone ' 
_


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## benkyoka (Feb 11, 2008)

Albertus said:


> I am following this* rank obsession* within the Bujinkan for some time now and I am wondering where this will lead to. Can anybody tell me what the purpose is of all these 15th Dans (see my list below) that are growing like rabbits in the Bujinkan. I alone counted 58 of them and I am sure that I am not complete. You can hardly call it special anymore to be a 15th Dan, it must be very frustrating nowadays to be "only" a 10th Dan (something only the very very best could achieve in the good old days). And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age? It is starting to become a joke to even have a rank in the Bujinkan. Can someone give me a decent comment on this, thanks.
> And if someone can add more names to this list, please feel free to do so, just to be as complete as possible.
> 
> *15th Dan Bujinkan* :




I didn't know there was a 'list'.  Perhaps you are the one 'obsessed'.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 11, 2008)

Ok being some what stupid  What rank dose the head of the system wear (claim to be)
If he is a 20th then do we look at these 15th dans as being equivilent to what in other systems


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 11, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> Ok being some what stupid What rank dose the head of the system wear (claim to be)
> If he is a 20th then do we look at these 15th dans as being equivilent to what in other systems


 
Hatsumi Sensei is the Soke.  He in effect is not within the dan ranking system.  How to compare dan ranks between systems?  It is pretty hard though some have tried.

Now as to the ranking system in the Bujinkan.  I do not care, really I have never cared.  The ranks I were given came from a friend/teacher and it would have been rude to have refused.  As to everyone else's rank, I do not care. (that is for their ego to deal with)  Now out of all the higher ranked Shidoshi and Shihan you will find some great teacher's.  The second on your list Michael Asuncion is fantastic and I am having him over in March to teach.  Bottom line though most people I know in the Bujinkan just want to train.


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## Shicomm (Feb 11, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> most people I know in the Bujinkan just want to train.



You're so right Brian!


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 11, 2008)

William Chow was a 15th Dan too...in Kenpo.


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## Albertus (Feb 11, 2008)

I am glad my post triggers so many different responds. That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!

Keep posting, and I didn't know there is also a 15th Dan in Kenpo.


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## stephen (Feb 12, 2008)

http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks


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## redfang (Feb 12, 2008)

I recently promoted myself to 144th dan in the best, ultimate MA system that the world ever has or will ever know, which I will be inventing tomorrow.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 12, 2008)

Albertus said:


> And what is there to strive for when you are a 15th Dan, at often such a young age?



I do not like rank chasing, I think it is detrimental to your training!  I personally don't train to "try and get a certain rank".  I train because I like the training.  It benefits my life.  When put into perspective, rank is quite trivial.

Most of the time I don't wear a belt, unless we are doing sword work or something.


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## Koryu Rich (Feb 13, 2008)

Albertus said:


> I am glad my post triggers so many different responds. That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!




You assume that people are chasing rank! Rank is awarded sometimes in can be becuase it is sought and others it's unexpected.

I've no doubt there are some out there that do chase rank but I bet there are a lot that don't. 

Rather than questioing those who have rank I always find it odd that some point out that they turned down a certain rank on x amount of occasions as opposed to those that just accept the rank as a gift/encouragement and then work their backsides off to improve themselves even more.

At the end of the day it's a good test of character.
Do you sit back and think "right I've done it now I do in fact rock" or do you think "dam better get my *** in gear and make sure I can carry this off and justify the faith that's been put in me"???


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## stauburn (Feb 15, 2008)

Just out of curiousity , why do you care about who has what rank and how does that effect your training?


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 15, 2008)

Albertus said:


> I am glad my post triggers so many different responds.


"triggers"? I think you're giving yourself a lot of credit. This IS a discussion board, after all...


Albertus said:


> That was the whole point, to start a conversation about this. I'll start with stating my believe, I don't think you need a rank to follow the Path and originally there were no ranks in Ninjutsu, but if someone needs a rank that's fine with me. Secondly I have nothing against women, I like them, it just surprised me that there were so few with the highest rank, so my comments were just a little joke, no offense. Maybe the women are just to smart to chase after these ranks!
> Keep posting, and I didn't know there is also a 15th Dan in Kenpo.



You're not listening/reading. Most folks in the Bujinkan don't care about rank. Last time I was in Japan, I was recommended to take the Sakki test by two Japanese shihan. I told them I'd rather spend that 50,000yen on training. 

The purpose of ranking in the Bujinkan is a bit different than other arts. If I were you, I'd spend more time obsessing over what these "ranks" mean to folks actually in the Bujinkan, instead of how many mega-dans there are out there.

Oh, & BTW, please share with us your historical knowledge of "Ninja".


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## ArmorOfGod (Feb 15, 2008)

The founder of judo went to 12th dan.

AoG


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## benkyoka (Feb 16, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> The founder of judo went to 12th dan.



Posthumously.


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## jks9199 (Feb 17, 2008)

Who cares?  Hatsumi has chosed to designate 15 dan rankings (or 10 with 5 divisions of 10th).  If he decided tomorrow to designate everyone's status within BBT as ham, chicken, or turkey sandwiches... that's his right.  It's his art, his style, and his system.  Personally, my minimal contact with a small handful of high ranked Bujinkan students has left me very impressed.

Any ranking is only meaningful to other people ranked within that system.  You can't cross-compare them, unless the styles have worked together and chosen to develop some level of equivalency.


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## Haiookami (Feb 18, 2008)

RANKS ARE IDEALS

If you ever have the time spend it with any of these people currently i have the honour to be training with one the main message they give is this

NINPO The path of Peace offers a complete ideal that encourages growth while being humble, but not timid, militant but not violent, unpredictable but not chaotic, encourage safety and personal growth of the people we interact with connecting us with that which is larger than ourselves 

Rank is a path in the world there are many paths ranks is only a chapter in a book there are many books its is your choice to choose which books and which paths to follow


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Apr 20, 2008)

I know that this isn't much to speak of, but I'm an 8th kyu and I've been training for almost two years.

The thing of it is, though, I went a whole year being 10th kyu, while the student guidebook my teacher wrote said that you were to be tested for 9th kyu after three months. This doesn't mean I'm weak, because he and the rest of my classmates (all of whom are around 10 years older than me) told me I learned quickly and was one of the more advanced students. I then spent about three months as 9th kyu, and have been 8th kyu for about five months.

Now, I'm not complaining about any of this, I'm just saying I really love how my Sensei tries to instill that rank doesn't matter. He casually throws out "Rob, you're x-kyu" or something like that, without showing any test or whatever. And, unlike when I trained in jiu-jitsu, there's no set amount of time until your next belt, and there's no "test" he just judges how you train and then informs you that you need a new belt.

I'm not a rank chaser, I love being surprised.


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## newtothe dark (Apr 20, 2008)

Very True I teach CMA on the weekends in a park for a few freinds, we get together and work on forms and even spar some. No one wears rank , no one bows, alot of the time we are in sweats. Not once in 10 years of doing it has anyone been confused as to who was who. The actions , movements, and character speaks all that needs to be spoken. None of those working with me have less than 10 years in the arts most have close to double that and I my self have over 30 so it has been fun and an eye opener. When training in my youth it was always what belt are you. I was one of only a few studying Kungfu in a town full of Karate so it blew their mind to hear me say "we dont have belts"
Just a thought.


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## kwaichang (Apr 21, 2008)

I've trained and known at least two on this list and they were awesome decades ago. They certainly are among the best in the world.

 If Hatsumi Sensei has changed designations (numbers over titles) that is his right.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 4, 2008)

Why do you worry about rank? Is it because maybe the rank is important to you and not everyone else? Jack Hoban said he asked Hatsumi-Sensei how did O'Sensei Takamatsu teach him 900 years worth of martial arts in 15 years and Hatsumi-Sensei answered him,"I can teach you in 10." So it doesn't matter what rank you are since your rank will not protect you in a life/death situation.


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## kwaichang (May 5, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Why do you worry about rank? Is it because maybe the rank is important to you and not everyone else? Jack Hoban said he asked Hatsumi-Sensei how did O'Sensei Takamatsu teach him 900 years worth of martial arts in 15 years and Hatsumi-Sensei answered him,"I can teach you in 10." So it doesn't matter what rank you are since your rank will not protect you in a life/death situation.


 
Agreed.  However, it isn't 900 yrs. of martial art, it IS 900 yrs old per the scrolls, etc.


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## Shicomm (May 5, 2008)

Well , it's not about the numbers ; it's about the experience !


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 6, 2008)

Exactly right its the experience....We all know that rank was created when Judo was made into an Olympic Sport and all other martial arts pretty much followed in suit. Or at least that was what was told to me when I first started martial arts back then.


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## thetruth (May 7, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Exactly right its the experience....We all know that rank was created when Judo was made into an Olympic Sport and all other martial arts pretty much followed in suit. Or at least that was what was told to me when I first started martial arts back then.



Jigoro Kano did invent the idea of rank but it was well before it became an Olympic sport.   It made it's debut in 1964 in Tokyo for men and ranking was done before then.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## kwaichang (May 7, 2008)

Yes, but ranking was by title not colored belt.  Old schools just let the obi get dirtier and eventually it turned black from years of use (never wash an obi).


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## Kreth (May 7, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Old schools just let the obi get dirtier and eventually it turned black from years of use (never wash an obi).


You do realize this is an urban legend, right?


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## kwaichang (May 7, 2008)

Kreth said:


> You do realize this is an urban legend, right?


 
Actually, in Japan, it was true when I trained there.:shrug:


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## Kreth (May 8, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Actually, in Japan, it was true when I trained there.:shrug:


Strange, the last time I was in Japan, the shihan were wearing fairly new obi. Maybe someone forgot to tell them? :idunno:


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 8, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Strange, the last time I was in Japan, the shihan were wearing fairly new obi. Maybe someone forgot to tell them? :idunno:


 
When I have been there as well they all wore new belts.


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> William Chow was a 15th Dan too...in Kenpo.


 


Albertus said:


> Keep posting, and I didn't know there is also a 15th Dan in Kenpo.


 

There isn't.  

Mr. Chow proclaimed himself 15th Dan to place himself above the numerous people who were all claiming very high rank.  I believe he did this out of a sense of sarcastic frustration as well as tongue-in-cheek.

I don't believe anyone, including himself, took it seriously.


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## Mangudai (May 21, 2008)

Honestly, I think it is quite embarrassing to tell you the truth.  My initial training started back in the mid-80's with Bud Malmstrom, but most of my training was with Charles Daniel.  At that time there where only a hand-full of Go-Dans in the U.S.  I remember when the ranks went up to 10th Dan and then there was Hatsumi-Sensei.  It's interesting how most of these people who started training in the 90's and now have ranks higher than many traditional martial artist who have been training 30+ years (daily) and "are only" 8th dans in their respective organizations.   Bottom-line, I believe it all comes down to two things.  Money and Pride.  Money in that Hatsumi is making a pile of it off the back of those ego's who like to be stroked.  It's just sad!  Enough for now.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2008)

Mangudai said:


> Honestly, I think it is quite embarrassing to tell you the truth. My initial training started back in the mid-80's with Bud Malmstrom, but most of my training was with Charles Daniel. At that time there where only a hand-full of Go-Dans in the U.S. I remember when the ranks went up to 10th Dan and then there was Hatsumi-Sensei. It's interesting how most of these people who started training in the 90's and now have ranks higher than many traditional martial artist who have been training 30+ years (daily) and "are only" 8th dans in their respective organizations. Bottom-line, I believe it all comes down to two things. Money and Pride. Money in that Hatsumi is making a pile of it off the back of those ego's who like to be stroked. It's just sad! Enough for now.


 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but Hatsumi Sensei can do whatever he wants with his art.  That is his right!


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## orang_baik (May 23, 2008)

i've just do a stupid research in google 

and look what I found :

Hatsumi vs BlackBelt Magazine
http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle.htm
BB: Why did you decide to add the 11th degree black belt to 15th degree black belt ranks to your system?

 MH: Its not something new. In the old days, it was like this. Its just that there weren't any 11th dan holders before.



another 15th degree member bujinkan :
http://bujinkanusa.com/teachers.htm


another 15th degree not a bujinkaners neither ninjutsuers
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/380


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 26, 2008)

Well this art is under Hatsumi Sensei's leadership. If he feels to have 15 dans then thats his business. Budo Taijutsu training and fighting methods to me are unique in the Marital World and therefore our ranks structure cannot be compared to any other martial art's rank structure since all martial arts have their own standards and requirements. In other words...each to their own.


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