# Tiny needles-big results



## theletch1 (Feb 24, 2006)

I just got back from my first visit with an acupuncturist.  I cannot believe I haven't gone earlier.  For the first time since october of 04 my back doesn't hurt at all.  The visit began rather oddly...I sat and TALKED to the practitioner for about an hour.  Last time I went to a doctors office I saw the doctor for a total of 5 minutes and spoke for maybe 30 seconds.  Two needles in each hand and four in each foot, soothing music, deep breathing and Bam I'm feeling better than I have in a long, long time.  She was very happy that I was a martial artist and had studied chi flow and didn't come in with the "I don't believe in this crap but I've tried everything else" mentality.  I was able to feel the energy flow from the insertion point to points on the other side of my body and give her immediate feed back.  After about 30 to 40 minutes on the table just breathing and feeling I was done with the treatment and then sat talking with Mrs. Mangarelli for another 15 or 20 minutes.  I'll be going back for at least a couple more visits.  No herbs this visit.  She wants to see how well the acupuncture does on it's own the first time around.  I'll keep everyone posted on how things progress.


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## michaeledward (Feb 24, 2006)

Did you have the electrical current added to your needles?

Several years back, I was regularly visiting an accupuncturist for back problems. She started out with, maybe 25 needles, but as our sessions progressed, we ended up with well over 100 needles up and down my body. Then she would attach electical current between several sets of needles, and pulsate the current through my body. 

I don't know if it did much for my back, but it was absolutely the most relaxing hour of me week. I'm certain that I have napped on her table.

It was a bit wierd to have needles stuck in my ear, hands, feet, groin, knees, for a back problem .... but I always enjoyed my nap. 

And, I am terrified of needles, by the way. But my back was really hurting.


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## Shirt Ripper (Feb 24, 2006)

My Aikdio instructor also provides these services...I haven't decided as of yet if I am going to take advantage of them.  Thanks for the thoughts.


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## theletch1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just had 10 needles.  Two on the meaty portion of the inside of my left thumb, two on the outside of my right thumb and four in each foot.  I got up this morning and was nearly in tears from the fact that I stood up from the bed and had no pain.  I've been in such pain for the last year and a half that to not have pain is amazing to me.  I have another appointment on tuesday and am looking forward to it.  There was little or no pain at all and I could actually feel the energy flow as she moved the needles around.


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## shesulsa (Feb 25, 2006)

I've had accupunture several times - it's just like anything else, tho - there are good practitioners and run-of-the-mill practitioners.  I like to find those who are working on their art.  I've used accupuncture mostly for back injuries and pain and have also had the TENS units put on the needles in my back.

100 needles is a lot and I wonder about the need for so very many - will have to ask my teacher about that one. You must have had either much excessive yin or yang or insufficient in one, either or both to indicate the need for THAT much stimulation or suppression.

I was in a car accident and received standard physical therapy modalities three times per week for seven weeks with no results.  After that, the PT I saw asked me to try accupuncture.  He said if I felt no improvement after the first treatment he wouldn't charge me nor ask that I try it again.  After three treatments, my back injuries were healed.  Amazing stuff!


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## Drac (Feb 25, 2006)

As with *Shesulsa* I've had acupuncture several times..No electrical current but she does place and herb on the end of the needle which she lights as Segal did in "Hard to Kill" and IT WORKS...My ex-wife fell on the ice and was in agony..Her chriopractor was convinced only surgery would help..I steered her toward my acupunturist and after one visit she was 85% better and by the second she was 100%..


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## shesulsa (Feb 25, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> she does place and herb on the end of the needle which she lights as Segal did in "Hard to Kill" and IT WORKS


Some people call this 'moxibustion' however as I understand it, true moxibustion is using a special kind of stick you light and it gets hot and smolders (akin to how incense does, but it's not incense at all) and you can hold the point of the stick very close to the point on the skin.  The heat radiates downward into the deeper layers of the skin - I think the heat stimulation is a specific need on specific points for specific purposes.


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## theletch1 (Feb 26, 2006)

The acupuncturist that I'm seeing is also a DOM.  I was impressed with the way the she would let me know exactly what to expect every time she touched a needle.  Feeling the energy flow from a needle to an entirely different part of my body was awesome.  She does do the moxibustion (just hasn't done it on me).  I checked out her credentials before ever going to see her and spoke to several different acupuncturist in the area before chosing her.  She was the one I got the best "vibe" from.  I don't know if she does the electro-acupuncture or not.  My PT used the TENS machine on my back when I was seeing him but he seemed to think it was just an exercise in how much juice I could take each visit.  After the effects of just regular acu I don't think I'll need the added electricity.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2006)

My wife is a TCM Doc from Beijing and she has commented on several occasions about the number of needles used by acupuncturists in this country (USA) and at some times she feels it is excessive. One hundred for a back problem may be excessive. Also she sometimes wonders why some acupuncturists trained here put needles in the points they do when her training says they have nothing to do with the problem. 

However she also said that she has to use more needles here than she would in Beijing because the needles used here are smaller needles. For certain treatments in China she would use one, maybe two needles, where here she has so use five or ten. 

The reason is stimulation of certain acupuncture points. In China for certain back problems she would use one BIG needle that would stimulate that specific point greatly. But in the USA you can't use big needles like that on many Americans, we tend to be a little more skidish around big needles. So this equates to stimulating more points with smaller needles to get the same result. 

Regardless to say I have been a pincushion many times and it has always helped. But it has not always been painless, just as a warning, acupuncture on the feet hurts.


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## theletch1 (Feb 26, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Regardless to say I have been a pincushion many times and it has always helped. But it has not always been painless, just as a warning, acupuncture on the feet hurts.


I think this may depend on the person being treated.  I didn't feel any pain at all when the points in my feet were stimulated.  Had I not seen her put the needles in I probably couldn't have told you that there were needles in my feet at all.  Going in the needle to the front of the meaty portion of my left hand was the most uncomfortable...it was also the only one that bled on the way out.  Coming out the only one that "hurt" was the forward one on the back of my right hand.  No blood there but I felt a huge surge of energy shooting from the point of insertion out through the tip of my right index finger.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> I think this may depend on the person being treated. I didn't feel any pain at all when the points in my feet were stimulated. Had I not seen her put the needles in I probably couldn't have told you that there were needles in my feet at all. Going in the needle to the front of the meaty portion of my left hand was the most uncomfortable...it was also the only one that bled on the way out. Coming out the only one that "hurt" was the forward one on the back of my right hand. No blood there but I felt a huge surge of energy shooting from the point of insertion out through the tip of my right index finger.


 
This could be true, but it also depends on the size of the needles used. She tends to use Chinese size needles on me.


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## Drac (Feb 26, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Some people call this 'moxibustion'


 
I have no clue what its called..I can feel the heat travel down the needle and the aroma of the herb is very relaxing..She also does a technique called "cupping"..Ever hear of it??


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## shesulsa (Feb 26, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> She also does a technique called "cupping"..Ever hear of it??


Is that where they use little suction cups?  I've seen those used but have never received that treatment.


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## Kenpobldr (Feb 27, 2006)

What is the average cost of accupunture? I have never had it done. Also what would be the best way to find someone reputable in your area?


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## Drac (Feb 27, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Is that where they use little suction cups? I've seen those used but have never received that treatment.


 
She uses a glass cup and somehow creates a suction..She did this a feww times when I screwed up my middle back putting weightd back in the squat rack..


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> She uses a glass cup and somehow creates a suction..She did this a feww times when I screwed up my middle back putting weightd back in the squat rack..


 
Usually different sized glass cups. Traditional way is to but a flame in the cup and quickly apply it to your back. The suction produced is supposed to make a very tight seal and in some cases it can hurt briefly.

There is also a way that it is done with a vacuum pump, but my wife does not use this way.

Cupping is great, especially for back issues and the common cold.

I will ask her the name of the other treatment you are referring to.


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## Shirt Ripper (Feb 27, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> ...when I screwed up my middle back putting weightd back in the squat rack..


 
You bend over to rack it instead of setting it down?


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## theletch1 (Feb 27, 2006)

Kenpobldr said:
			
		

> What is the average cost of accupunture? I have never had it done. Also what would be the best way to find someone reputable in your area?


You can check out www.nccaom.org to check on one you're found or use their "find a practitioner" tab to find one in the area.  My first visit was $110 and follow ups are $55 each but I'm sure that that changes depending on your location and the practitioner.  Much like chosing a martial arts school I suggest calling and talking with the acupuncurist before hand to see what you think.  The first one I called really ticked me off.  He was listed as an acupuncturist in the book but was also a chiropractor.  He refused to do the acupuncture until after I had undergone his chiropractic care for an unspecified amount of time.  When I called the woman that is fixing me now I had an immediate connection with her.


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## Kenpobldr (Feb 27, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> You can check out www.nccaom.org to check on one you're found or use their "find a practitioner" tab to find one in the area. My first visit was $110 and follow ups are $55 each but I'm sure that that changes depending on your location and the practitioner. Much like chosing a martial arts school I suggest calling and talking with the acupuncurist before hand to see what you think. The first one I called really ticked me off. He was listed as an acupuncturist in the book but was also a chiropractor. He refused to do the acupuncture until after I had undergone his chiropractic care for an unspecified amount of time. When I called the woman that is fixing me now I had an immediate connection with her.


 
Thank You! 

I will check it out.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> You can check out www.nccaom.org to check on one you're found or use their "find a practitioner" tab to find one in the area. My first visit was $110 and follow ups are $55 each but I'm sure that that changes depending on your location and the practitioner. Much like chosing a martial arts school I suggest calling and talking with the acupuncurist before hand to see what you think. The first one I called really ticked me off. He was listed as an acupuncturist in the book but was also a chiropractor. He refused to do the acupuncture until after I had undergone his chiropractic care for an unspecified amount of time. When I called the woman that is fixing me now I had an immediate connection with her.


 
NCCAOM is a good place to start, but remember prices may vary. And high price may or may not equate to a good acupuncturist. 

And be careful of who you choose, theletch1 has a very good suggestion call first. 

Also just because they are an MD does not mean good acupuncturist; An MD may be covered by insurance but they are not required to train as long, in some states, as someone who is just an acupuncturist. 

Just because they are Chinese does not mean they were trained in China as an acupuncturist or at all. Many Chinese MDs come here and cannot practice medicine so they change to acupuncture. They may never have received TCM training in China.

My wife graduated Beijing university of TCM and her training is very different from an MD trained in China. Although she was required to study Western medicine and do an internship in it to become an OMD. I am not sure, but I do not think an MD trained in China is required to study TCM.


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## Gemini (Feb 27, 2006)

I went to one when I had tendonitus in my shoulders and nothing else helped. I wasn't a true believer, but everything else had failed and I was at least open minded enough to try. Well, it took about 8 sessions, but it worked. I still don't believe it's a cure-all for everything as some claim, nothing is, but I am convinced it has its applications and wouldn't hesitate to go back if I felt the need.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> she does place and herb on the end of the needle which she lights as Segal did in "Hard to Kill"


 
shesulsa is correct it is moxibustion.

However it should never be used if the problem you have is caused by to much heat in the body.



			
				Gemini said:
			
		

> I went to one when I had tendonitus in my shoulders and nothing else helped. I wasn't a true believer, but everything else had failed and I was at least open minded enough to try. Well, it took about 8 sessions, but it worked. I still don't believe it's a cure-all for everything as some claim, nothing is, but I am convinced it has its applications and wouldn't hesitate to go back if I felt the need.



That is one of the biggest problem my wife has with new patients. They expect it to be a one-time quick fix miracle cure and it isn't. Depending on the injury or problem it can take multiple visits.

Also she says that there are certain things that TCM treats better and there are certain things that Western medicine treats better.


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## shesulsa (Feb 27, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> shesulsa is correct it is moxibustion.
> 
> However it should never be used if the problem you have is caused by to much heat in the body.



:asian:  Thank you.  Is too much heat in the body considered to be excess yang?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> :asian: Thank you. Is too much heat in the body considered to be excess yang?


 
Too much heat can be considered too much Yang.


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## Drac (Feb 28, 2006)

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> You bend over to rack it instead of setting it down?


 
Naw,  I just wasn't paying attention..I was having one of those really "strong" days and added a couple of extra plates and reps..Somehow when placing the bar back in the rack I twisted my body instead of going in straight..


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## Gemini (Feb 28, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> That is one of the biggest problem my wife has with new patients. They expect it to be a one-time quick fix miracle cure and it isn't. Depending on the injury or problem it can take multiple visits.


 
That's not what I said. I assumed it to take at least several visits, if it would work at all.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 28, 2006)

Gemini said:
			
		

> That's not what I said. I assumed it to take at least several visits, if it would work at all.


 
Gemini

Sorry, I did not mean that you had said that, I was not clear in my statement.

"Well, it took about 8 sessions, but it worked. I still don't believe it's a cure-all for everything as some claim, nothing is, but I am convinced it has its applications and wouldn't hesitate to go back if I felt the need." 
--Gemini

I was not saying that you had said or done this
"That is one of the biggest problem my wife has with new patients. They expect it to be a one-time quick fix miracle cure and it isn't. Depending on the injury or problem it can take multiple visits." --Xue Sheng

I was referring to the fact that you did go 8 times and that you did not believe it was a miracle cure, and that is a good thing. And I was not clear at all about what I actually meant, sorry. 

But there are those that do not share your belief. They expect after being in pain for several years going to doctors, taking medication and having surgery that they can go to an TCM doc or and acupuncturist one time and they will be all better. And if it does not work that way the go away ma, say it doesn&#8217;t work and never come back. 

My wife tells all her patients the number of visits that they will need to start, some times 2 or 3 times a week working towards 1 to 2 times a month until eventually it is as needed or cured. Many westerners do not want to hear that, they want to hear one visit and you&#8217;re all fixed all better. 

I am very happy that you gave it a chance and I agree whole heartedly that it is not a miracle cure. In China it is just a medical procedure as much as going for an x-ray or seeing your MD here. 

Also I found out that in China, for certain problems they give herbal shots to specific points (similar to getting cortisone shot, if you will allow the comparison). I am told it works very well, but that is not allowed here in the US. 

Once again I apologize for my poor explanation.


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