# Collateral Gunfight Scene



## Blotan Hunka (May 24, 2006)

Those who saw the movie will remember this scene..

http://www.the-roberts.info/gallery/albums/GTFriends/collateral.mpg

What do you all think about the realism of this engagement? I like the "martial arts" quality of the scene vs. "target range". One thing I thought about it was how realistic was the way they just dropped when hit? Thoughts?


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## KenpoTex (May 24, 2006)

That's actually one of my favorite movie shootings simply because I think it is so realistic ("speed-rock" for the first guy, Mozambique for the second).  You don't have the typical movie BS where the gun never runs out of ammo, the shooter can hit a running man through the head at 50 yards at night one-handed, etc.

As far as the speed with which they dropped, if you make good CNS hits, they'll go down fast.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 24, 2006)

True. I still still think hollywood likes to propogate the "get shot you always fall down" myth. I thought I heard somewhere that some people who die of shock from non-lethal wounds almost "psyched" themselves to death because they always believed that getting shot means death. All in all pistols are not really that consistant of man stoppers. That guy from Florida who killed those FBI agents in the 80's took how many rounds before he died? Still I agree as far as a realistic looking engagement it was pretty good.


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## MA-Caver (May 24, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> True. I still still think hollywood likes to propogate the "get shot you always fall down" myth. I thought I heard somewhere that some people who die of shock from non-lethal wounds almost "psyched" themselves to death because they always believed that getting shot means death. All in all pistols are not really that consistant of man stoppers. That guy from Florida who killed those FBI agents in the 80's took how many rounds before he died? Still I agree as far as a realistic looking engagement it was pretty good.



An old korean war veteran told me that officers switched from the .45 1911 to a 9mm then in vietnam some of them switched back to the 1911 because of it's ability to knock a man down and KEEP him down. Kinda handy considering the circumstances.

Of course using the double shot (per person) technique is as I understand it a better practice. Then again Cruise's character shoots each of them three times, the first guy a third time as an afterthought... hmm gave the second one three ... he needs his third.


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## Jenna (May 25, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Those who saw the movie will remember this scene..
> 
> http://www.the-roberts.info/gallery/albums/GTFriends/collateral.mpg
> 
> What do you all think about the realism of this engagement? I like the "martial arts" quality of the scene vs. "target range". One thing I thought about it was how realistic was the way they just dropped when hit? Thoughts?


Hey mister Blotan Hunka are you really a leader of a War Party?? Wow sounds violent!! 

And LOTS of appreciation here for you for posting this reminder of what is just the BEST of the modern real gun scenes. Some films have done it with raw and brutal reality Collateral did it with a brutal reality that was ice cool to look at too. I am mesmerised by that little clip over and over.

The first victim is a right posturing idiot with that insipid palm-down hold waving the firearm around like it is a duelling glove and I think it is relevant to the surprise advantage that we as martial artists have in such a situation. Ths disarm was quick and merited and appropriate and really the guy postures because he is convinced he has found an easy target. Well, guess what.... bang! you're dead.  If you watch the accomplice he is also taken by such surprise all he can do is fumble and stutter

Thanks for posting this up  Now when I am feeling like popping a cap in somebodys *** I know where to come, ha!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## KenpoTex (May 25, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister Blotan Hunka are you really a leader of a War Party?? Wow sounds violent!!
> 
> And LOTS of appreciation here for you for posting this reminder of what is just the BEST of the modern real gun scenes. Some films have done it with raw and brutal reality Collateral did it with a brutal reality that was ice cool to look at too. I am mesmerised by that little clip over and over.
> 
> ...


The movie "Way of the Gun" also had some good, realistic gunhandling, but I gotta agree with you. Collateral was just cool. In both the shooting scene, and later during the fights in the club, Cruise's character was just awesome. No warning, just efficient ruthless violence.  

Seriously, if we analyze the character of "Vincent" (ignoring the whole "hit man" thing) I think we can learn a lot about the type of mindset necessary to survive a violent encounter. The guy was polite and professional; no bravado or posturing, but needed no "build-up" before he could immediately respond with overwhelming force when such force was dictated by the circumstances.



			
				Jenna said:
			
		

> If you watch the accomplice he is also taken by such surprise all he can do is fumble and stutter


 and here we seen why you shouldn't carry your pistol in your baggy pants.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 25, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> An old korean war veteran told me that officers switched from the .45 1911 to a 9mm then in vietnam some of them switched back to the 1911 because of it's ability to knock a man down and KEEP him down. Kinda handy considering the circumstances.
> 
> Of course using the double shot (per person) technique is as I understand it a better practice. Then again Cruise's character shoots each of them three times, the first guy a third time as an afterthought... hmm gave the second one three ... he needs his third.


 
Ahh the old .45 vs. 9mm debate. I say that with the propper ammo and proper target placement there isnt really that huge of a difference. A hollow point 9mm vs. a hardball .45? Any way you slice it, the pistol isnt a guaranteed manstopper.


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## arnisador (May 26, 2006)

I always liked  the efficiency demonstrated in that scene. Realistic? I dunno.


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## Jenna (May 26, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> The movie "Way of the Gun" also had some good, realistic gunhandling, but I gotta agree with you. Collateral was just cool. In both the shooting scene, and later during the fights in the club, Cruise's character was just awesome. No warning, just efficient ruthless violence.


Oooh talk to me my language KT!! 



			
				kenpotex said:
			
		

> Seriously, if we analyze the character of "Vincent" (ignoring the whole "hit man" thing) I think we can learn a lot about the type of mindset necessary to survive a violent encounter. The guy was polite and professional; no bravado or posturing, but needed no "build-up" before he could immediately respond with overwhelming force when such force was dictated by the circumstances.


But there was actually WAY more to the character than a composed assassin. Not only was he intelligent well read and schooled --his unfathomable Miles Davis knowledge-- but he had a whole coherent and unarguable philosophy around his work. I just love it and one of my favourite badboy characters and I could eulogise all day but for once I will not 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## green meanie (May 26, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> An old korean war veteran told me that officers switched from the .45 1911 to a 9mm then in vietnam some of them switched back to the 1911 because of it's ability to knock a man down and KEEP him down. Kinda handy considering the circumstances.


 
_VERY_ true. Most have gone back to the 9mm _again_ for the accuracy. The old .45's were harder to get on target with.   :asian:


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## Blotan Hunka (May 26, 2006)

*Vincent*: Max, six billion people on the planet, you're getting bent out of shape cause of one fat guy. 
*Max:* Well, who was he? 
*Vincent:* What do you care? Have you ever heard of Rwanda? 
*Max:* Yes, I know Rwanda. 
*Vincent:* Well, tens of thousands killed before sundown. Nobody's killed people that fast since Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Did you bat an eye, Max?
*Max:* What? 
*Vincent:* Did you join Amnesty International, Oxfam, Save the Whales, Greenpeace, or something? No. I off one fat Angelino and you throw a hissy fit. 
*Max:* Man, I don't know any Rwandans. 
*Vincent:* You don't know the guy in the trunk, either.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 26, 2006)

*Max:* Hey. 
*Max:* He, he, he fell on the cab. He fell, he fell from up there on the mother****ing cab. ****. I think he's dead. 
*Vincent*: Good guess. 
*Max:* You killed him? 
*Vincent:* No, I shot him. Bullets and the fall killed him. 

*Vincent:* Okay, look, here's the deal. Man, you were gonna drive me around tonight, never be the wiser, but El Gordo got in front of a window, did his high dive, we're into Plan B. Still breathing? Now we gotta make the best of it, improvise, adapt to the environment, Darwin, **** happens, I Ching, whatever man, we gotta roll with it. 
*Max:* I Ching? What are you talking about, man? You threw a man out of a window. 
*Vincent:* I didn't throw him. He *fell* 
*Max:* Well what did he do to you? 
*Vincent:* What? 
*Max:* What did he do to *you*? 
*Vincent:* Nothing. I only met him tonight. 
*Max:* You just met him once and you killed him like that? 
*Vincent:* What? I should only kill people after I get to know them?


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## Blotan Hunka (May 26, 2006)

Anyone have a link to the nightclub scene?


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## Cruentus (May 27, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> _VERY_ true. Most have gone back to the 9mm _again_ for the accuracy. The old .45's were harder to get on target with. :asian:


 
Actually, thats not why from what I understand. The reason for military issueing 9mm is because other allied countries uses 9mm; so it is easy to interchange ammo and such.

Anyways; I liked the movie and thought it was entertaining. 

Continue...


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## green meanie (May 27, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Actually, thats not why from what I understand. The reason for military issueing 9mm is because other allied countries uses 9mm; so it is easy to interchange ammo and such.
> 
> Anyways; I liked the movie and thought it was entertaining.
> 
> Continue...


 
That's not the way it was explained to me when they took away my 45 and gave me a 9mm.  :asian:


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## Cruentus (May 27, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> That's not the way it was explained to me when they took away my 45 and gave me a 9mm. :asian:


 
That's cool I believe it....because as you know, officers don't always don't what the hell they are talking about! lol 

I will tell you right now that the idea of a 9mm being more accurate then the 45 in combat shooting is a myth. How you control the gun and your shooting method will determine your accuracy, not caliber when you are talking about small pistol calibers. This is particularly true with auto rounds like 9 and 45.

So, I have no doubt that is what you were told; however, I would have to say that I don't think that was the reason.

Paul


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## green meanie (May 27, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> That's cool I believe it....because as you know, officers don't always don't what the hell they are talking about! lol
> 
> I will tell you right now that the idea of a 9mm being more accurate then the 45 in combat shooting is a myth. How you control the gun and your shooting method will determine your accuracy, not caliber when you are talking about small pistol calibers. This is particularly true with auto rounds like 9 and 45.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Paul.

It's not a myth when the 45's that were being used at the time were old, beat up, and wore out and the 9mm's were new.
And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## Rich Parsons (May 27, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey mister Blotan Hunka are you really a leader of a War Party?? Wow sounds violent!!
> 
> And LOTS of appreciation here for you for posting this reminder of what is just the BEST of the modern real gun scenes. Some films have done it with raw and brutal reality Collateral did it with a brutal reality that was ice cool to look at too. I am mesmerised by that little clip over and over.
> 
> ...



I think the movie may have been trying to be real. And I think they kept it simple. Includign the surprise of the second guy and the third shot in teh first guy as he was still alive and groaning to get up 

My problem is that I think they all made msitakes. 

The main character getting the breifcase back makes the mistake of assuming that the second guy will not shot him before he can shot the first person.

I also think the second guy made the mistake of not having his gun out and pinting it at the crazy guy walking up the alley way at them. If you are already in a scene where guns are out, having yours out as well is nto a bad idea. 

And of course all the mistake people mentioned about the first guy with palm down and getting to close.

Not an expert of anything, just an armchair tactition.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 27, 2006)

If we are to suspend disbelief and think of the movie as reality, the real difference is that Vincent already knew he was going to kill those guys. The thugs thought they we just going to jack up some yuppie looking dude in a suit. The predator drawing in the prey.


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Hi Paul.
> 
> It's not a myth when the 45's that were being used at the time were old, beat up, and wore out and the 9mm's were new.
> And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.


 
OK...well, why not get new 45s? Sure, we can agree to disagree if you want.


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Hi Paul.
> 
> It's not a myth when the 45's that were being used at the time were old, beat up, and wore out and the 9mm's were new.
> And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.


 
Oh...and while we are agreeing to disagree (note sarcasm in attempt to be humerous ), check out this article:

_"In the mid-1980s, several trends converged upon the one firearm that had served the American military the longest. NATO was pushing the USA for complete compatibility in small arms ammo, and *every other nation carried 9mm pistols*." _

_http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob83.html_

 Paul


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## green meanie (May 28, 2006)

Thanks for the info. Looks like I wasn't told the whole story. :asian:


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## Blotan Hunka (May 29, 2006)

Also a good example of how a good undercover holster should be a scabbard style with no retention straps to fumble with. Clear clothing/grip/draw. I could be wrong but I think he wore a kydex rig of some sort here right?


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