# Left-Right



## tshadowchaser (Jul 1, 2002)

I know that the forms are left and right sided but how many are required to practice their self defence on both sides?
When you test for the higher ranks are you (or do you require )self defence from both sides as part of the test?


----------



## kenpo_cory (Jul 1, 2002)

Yes, we have to be proficient with every self-defense technique on both sides when you test for your 3rd brown and every belt thereafter. I really had a whole new look on the techniques after that. It really forced me to analize the principles contained in the techniques. Great learning experience.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 1, 2002)

Did you fond that if the tech. was used off a say right sided attack that sometomes the defence took on a whole different look and meaning. I know that some of my defences have a different meaning when left side is applied to right sided attact


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 1, 2002)

You have to remember Kenpo is a right handed/strong-sided art with more than enough motion principles to take care of the weak side.     Brains don't associate reaction time on the weak side but rather will move from the unconscious memory being the strong side during a stressful situation  (I can account for that fact when I bent my steering wheel in half with my right arm during an automobile crash, to wit, I'm still suffering from an injured shoulder from it).    That being said, there is no need to do the techniques on both sides (believe it or not, I used to think the same way about learning it on both sides) as there is plenty within the curriculum for all attacks, weak or strong sided.



Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## kenpo_cory (Jul 1, 2002)

Well, if youre defending with the same exact technique for the same exact attack just with the opposite sides, then no. But as I'm sure you already know, you can use a lot of the same techniques for different attacks, then the technique will appear to take on a whole new meaning but I find that the principles usually stay the same. I hope I understood the question correctly and didn't just babble some useless garbage at ya.


----------



## Zoran (Jul 2, 2002)

There is a case for being proficient on both sides with all techniques. We used to do a drill where you were required to defend with only one arm. The other arm was put behind you in your belt. It was to simulate the loss that arm (broken, shot, etc.) If you never practiced using your weak side as your strong forward, you felt pretty uncoordinated.

Point is, don't take anything for granted.


----------



## satans.barber (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *I know that the forms are left and right sided but how many are required to practice their self defence on both sides?
> When you test for the higher ranks are you (or do you require )self defence from both sides as part of the test? *



I have trouble doing even the simple techniques the opposite way around to normal, it's just not something we usually practice. I think I know enough techniques to simply use another appropriate one, e.g. Buckling Branch instead of Thrusting Salute backwards, Sword of Destruction instead of Delayed Sword backwards etc..

Ian.


----------



## Kirk (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *You have to remember Kenpo is a right handed/strong-sided art with more than enough motion principles to take care of the weak side.     Brains don't associate reaction time on the weak side but rather will move from the unconscious memory being the strong side during a stressful situation  (I can account for that fact when I bent my steering wheel in half with my right arm during an automobile crash, to wit, I'm still suffering from an injured shoulder from it).    That being said, there is no need to do the techniques on both sides (believe it or not, I used to think the same way about learning it on both sides) as there is plenty within the curriculum for all attacks, weak or strong sided.
> 
> ...



Wow!  You sure aren't afraid to post your opinion away from "the
norm" are ya!   Kudos for that!  Anyways, I admit it was refreshing
to hear ya say that!  I've had that opinion myself, although mine
isn't one from experience.  I just felt that if Mr Parker wanted the
left side developed, he would've added it to the curriculum.  The 
first thing my instructor told me on my first day was "this is a 
right handed system".  It'll be interesting to see if my opinions
change the more experience I get.


----------



## Robbo (Jul 2, 2002)

Wouldn't it make more sense to have the attack come from the opposite side and then show how the defense has to be modified to deal with the different variables? That way instead of just seeing the surface application of the technique you start to delve deeper into what motions make the technique 'work'.

If I take a student and show them how a technique against a left punch can be tailored/changed/rearranged to defend against a right hand punch with the same basic motion then he can apply those concepts it to many attacks such as round house kicks, grabs, etc.

If I just teach him to do the technique mirrirored it only teaches him how to defend against the opposite hand not the multitude of other attacks it could be applied against.

Thanks,
Rob


----------



## Kirk (Jul 2, 2002)

In my school, we practice all the techs against various attacks.
Such as doing delayed sword against a roundhouse kick.


----------



## Klondike93 (Jul 2, 2002)

From what I've learned so far, Mr. Parker had built in what if's and left side attacks. The more I learn it the more I find myself saying "oh that's just so and so from the left" or something to that effect.


:asian:


----------



## satans.barber (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *In my school, we practice all the techs against various attacks.
> Such as doing delayed sword against a roundhouse kick. *



As a sparring combo maybe, as a self defense technique, hmm...I think only people who'd been watching too many Jackie Chan films would be trying to kick up there in the street!

Ian.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Me bashful yea, like a turd in a party punchbowl.     To me, there is no reason whatsoever to do techniques on the left side if you're already familiar with a motion to deal with an attack, that's the whole beauty of Kenpo, to respond with engrained motion to stimulus.    I can't even imagine trying to do the ending to Wings of Silk or Destructive Twins on the left side WHEEEWWW!     Is there a particular need for training both sides?   I believe Zoran mentioned that you may be wounded or not have use of an appendage, irregardless, you will still respond from the primitive state in a crisis.    If you've trained well enough to engrain the material, then you've evolved your primitive state to a trained response. 


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Seig (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Or an accomplished kicker that has been doing it a very long time.


----------



## Seig (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


I am not taking issue with nor disagreeing with you.  I was under the impression that the reason that a lot of instructors do that is to a.) make you almost ambidexterous and b.) to give you better understanding of the technique.


----------



## kenpo3631 (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *You have to remember Kenpo is a right handed/strong-sided art with more than enough motion principles to take care of the weak side.     Brains don't associate reaction time on the weak side but rather will move from the unconscious memory being the strong side during a stressful situation  (I can account for that fact when I bent my steering wheel in half with my right arm during an automobile crash, to wit, I'm still suffering from an injured shoulder from it).    That being said, there is no need to do the techniques on both sides (believe it or not, I used to think the same way about learning it on both sides) as there is plenty within the curriculum for all attacks, weak or strong sided.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you Clyde. My instructor and I discussed this same issue one day and he said the same thing.  :asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *You have to remember Kenpo is a right handed/strong-sided art with more than enough motion principles to take care of the weak side.     Brains don't associate reaction time on the weak side but rather will move from the unconscious memory being the strong side during a stressful situation  (I can account for that fact when I bent my steering wheel in half with my right arm during an automobile crash, to wit, I'm still suffering from an injured shoulder from it).    That being said, there is no need to do the techniques on both sides (believe it or not, I used to think the same way about learning it on both sides) as there is plenty within the curriculum for all attacks, weak or strong sided.
> 
> ...




Hey Professor, welcome to Martial Talk, Clyde. You and I have had discussions in the Yahell clubs, it's good to see you here.
This will take a load off Mr. C, when it comes to answering some of the more indepth or obscure questions.

Again, welcome.
--Dave
:asian:


----------



## Kirk (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I meant block - kick - chop ... the block for the kick wouldn't be
an extended outward block, but the kick and chop would be the
same.


----------



## satans.barber (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Ah ok, I see what you mean, when I read it at first I thought you meant as a defense against a high roundhouse.

Makes sense now 

Ian.


----------



## Klondike93 (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



What block would you use for a high round kick?



:asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 3, 2002)

I was curious: what's the logic behind working both sides of the techniques from very early in training kenpo? Wouldn't working the sets and forms do just as well? All the forms and sets deal with both sides--and, they bring out the asymmetrical nature of kenpo.

The second thing I wondered about was whether or not running techniques on both sides was actually possible. Or is it like the start of Short 1--both the right and left inward blocks seem the same, but actually aren't. 

Thanks, guys and grils. I'm new to this forum.

Sincerely,
Robert


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 3, 2002)

Robert,
You can teach yourself to do both sides of techniques. It all comes down to practice. The most important thing as far as I'm concerned for doing both sides is POSITION RECOGNITION. When you get into the other 2 phases the muscle memory (the brain) must be there to work for you. 
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 3, 2002)

The main reason I started this thread is that I remembered that the forms do a right sided move then a left sided . So my thoughts where that the defense should also folow the same sequence.
Shadow:asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, yeah, I take your points--but I was actually asking something else. Let me try and be clearer.

First, isn't it pretty confusing for beginners (and some of us advanced types) to try and learn, "both sides," of a technique? I haven't seen it on this thread, but I have from time to time seen folks advocate that all techniques, right from the get-go, are to be learned on, "both sides." 

So wouldn't it be easier, even perhaps more natural, to slowly introduce the left side via the sets and forms, as these get learned in the already mapped-out course of training? The explanation I got was that first you develop the right side (same thing Clyde got, and from pretty much the same source), then start integrating both sides--so by Long 6, the left is well-emphasized, though it never comes up to the same level entirely.

Second--is it really the same, running (for example) Delayed Sword on the "other side?" For one thing--and the forms/sets might bring this out--isn't the left side the smart side, the dragon hand, the manipulative one? Both sides of Short 1 aren't the same--even the first two blocks aren't--so beyond the practicality of teaching both sides equally from the start, there's the question of whether or not they are identical even if you do both.

Or to raise the same issue another way, I'm not sure I see why it's necessary to run Delayed Sword or Five Swords, "on the other side," against left-sided attacks. Isn't it possible to keep the technique right-sided, and go outside the attacker's arm rather than inside? If that's not such a good idea, why?

Thank you for the discussion. Nice to see folks who actually want to discuss the nuts and bolts of kenpo.


----------



## brianhunter (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Clydes pretty good at that...just get to talking to him sometime hes full of info and facts and good hard brutally honest opinion. It is refreshing to hear someone who isnt a "yes man"


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 3, 2002)

[Well, yeah, I take your points--but I was actually asking something else. Let me try and be clearer.

First, isn't it pretty confusing for beginners (and some of us advanced types) to try and learn, "both sides," of a technique? I haven't seen it on this thread, but I have from time to time seen folks advocate that all techniques, right from the get-go, are to be learned on, "both sides." 

So wouldn't it be easier, even perhaps more natural, to slowly introduce the left side via the sets and forms, as these get learned in the already mapped-out course of training? The explanation I got was that first you develop the right side (same thing Clyde got, and from pretty much the same source), then start integrating both sides--so by Long 6, the left is well-emphasized, though it never comes up to the same level entirely.

Second--is it really the same, running (for example) Delayed Sword on the "other side?" For one thing--and the forms/sets might bring this out--isn't the left side the smart side, the dragon hand, the manipulative one? Both sides of Short 1 aren't the same--even the first two blocks aren't--so beyond the practicality of teaching both sides equally from the start, there's the question of whether or not they are identical even if you do both.

Or to raise the same issue another way, I'm not sure I see why it's necessary to run Delayed Sword or Five Swords, "on the other side," against left-sided attacks. Isn't it possible to keep the technique right-sided, and go outside the attacker's arm rather than inside? If that's not such a good idea, why?

Thank you for the discussion. Nice to see folks who actually want to discuss the nuts and bolts of kenpo.QUOTE]

Robert,
Sure it's confusing to a point, I still get messed up from time to time. I believe self-discovery plays a big part into learning the kenpo system. When I went to Mr. C's seminar a couple of months ago he had a 7yr. old girl doing things on both sides with no problems. He has an excellent way of teaching kenpo. At that time I decided that I needed to incorporating techniques taught to the opposite side.

I understand your point on the forms and sets. After long 3 we repeat specific tech.'s on both sides. I personally only know through 5 and have heard that saying many numerous, numerous times about everything being there already you just need to look at it deeper. Look at book 5 Mr. Parker has material listed right & left sides from the beginning. Now my instructor hs adopted to start at 2nd black to train each technique on the opposite side it was taught. He thought this would be a good place to start to relearn the system w/extensions and opposite side techniques.

Let me give you an example of what happened to me last night. I was teaching Dance of Death to some newer students. It was the next tech. they were to learn. One of the male students asked a question about (what if, already) if you hit the attacker in the side of the leg because he was moving and threw a left roundhouse because he could. Put me on the spot in front of everyone in the class that's only been there for about 3-5 months. Having only been to 1 seminar with Mr. Conatser it took me about 2 seconds to say well from here it looks like a good place to execute Delayed Sword on the opposite side. This came to mind because the position of right to left, my right hand low w/the left hand high. I blocked the right but didn't hit the groin & immediately the left hook. Once again I believe it came down to just plain old practice. 

Here comes one more answer of what works on the outside of a right will work on the inside of a left and vice versa. Everone attacker will have his own "style" persay. We all won't always get attacked by a right handed fighter. Some people are left handed. Why not just have a little extra knowledge in the bag for any situation? 

Mr. Planas has a great Five Swords technique for the outside of a left. There's no way I can put that into typed words one must feel how the technique works, and feels.

Lastly, I personally believe you can't move up in rank without self-discovery, trianing, learning, seminars, etc. A kenpoist can't sit idle and practice the same things over and over again. We must learn how to graft or take a technique and disect it, make it work for other attacks, break it down, come up with our own techniques for situations. OK I'm done rambling for now.

Robert send me a private message about your lineage or instructor the questions and thoughts you have seem just waaaaay too familiar. If you would? For all I know you could be in the same class I am!
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 3, 2002)

I like the idea of teaching techniques on both sides.  This works well when you have beginners doing that from the time that they step on the mat.  There is no question then about having a "Bad" or "Weak" side.  It also allow us to focus on some principles of motion in a mirrored opposite fashion e.g. rotation Counter-Clockwise then clockwise, say in Delayed Sword; on the opposite side you get the Clockwise first then counter-clockwise.  Starting this early provides a tool for later introduction of techniques requiring similar rotation (just an example.)  

There may also be some benefit to students who are left-handed, even though my experience is that they are more bilateral to start with.  

I have taught both sides then just one side and expected the deficit to be made up at Brown.  Another option is that for Orange you learn Yellow on the left and Orange on the Right.  Purple belt would require Orange on the left and Purple on the right.  There is something to be said for less material earlier in terms of student retention, which is what I am doing now.  The student is more hooked in and less overwhelmed with material if I use this model.

-Michael
UKS-Texas


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 3, 2002)

Man, ya'll just can't get over using the left side of techniques can you?     Let me give an example.

I learned to drive right here in the good ole USA, on the right side of the road.    I'd spent my entire life on that side as a passenger, then driver, and as a pedestrian.     Then I'm uprooted from my homeland and sent to Jolly ole England.    WOW, this was a shock for driving and being a pedestrian as I'd only known one side all my life.     Driving from the right side is a little odd to get used to but the pedals were the same, but shifting with the left hand proved to be a problem, to this day.   I eventually learned with enough concentration to handle London traffic on the Motroways (The A-1, A-5), driving thru small villages with roads not much wider than the car I was in, etc.    Hell, I even got pretty good at it, but what happened one day just scared the living S*** out of me.    I had just woken up, late for work and was 45 miles from the base at my girlfriends place.    In my early morning primitive state, guess what, I was driving on the right side of the road again, and causing a big problem with oncoming traffic to say the least, and I didn't even realize that I was the one in error.    I was flashing my lights and horn and everything else to tell people get the hell out of my way until after a couple of minutes, I remembered where I was and quickly got back in my own lane, never to loose concentration like that again (fortuately for them).     I shows that no matter how hard you concentrate, you can't get the subconscious brain functioning out of normal from a primitive state, no matter how hard you try.     Kenpo is a strongsided system, period, so get used to it.    Enhance the primitive state of your brain (the fight or flight reflexes) and engraine your Kenpo to stay in that area for the crisis situation.    You'll find you'll react without a thought, but an action of consequence, and a trained one if you've done it well enough.     

If you suddenly find yourself in a position to do Delayed Sword on the Left side, you could just as easily do an extension of a technique learned on the right side (If you've learned the extensions) and not fight yourself trying to do something from the weak side.    PLEASSEE, Stop the madness.

BTW,  Scott, you really have so many answers you should be the Professor, spot on 99% of the time, good on ya!!!!.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 3, 2002)

Mr. Parker and I have had many talks about our system and different training methods... and after 25 years in the studio with a multitude of fine students practicing techniques both the original and opposite sides.... I have seen the success.

That is not to say that many of the statements made are wrong.... the system is directed at the "norm" or right hand attacks most of the time, and yes, uniquely the system (one sided) does duplicate and produce opposite techniques normally.  So, that is ONE Method of training.  Everyone is free to maintain that if they like. 

I on the other hand during my early months of training didn't do the opposite sides... then was asked at purple belt to "go back" and start working on the opposites.  I found this a little difficult since I had got into a comfort zone with only one side.  I did manage to learn the stuff but resisted as many of you are now showing.  

I wasn't until after I started with Mr. Parker that the opposite and reverse Kenpo Tool really hit me.  While converting over to exactly what Mr. Parker wanted the topic came up as to doing "both sides".... he said...... "sure, why not"?.....  I thought about this and developed a "jingle" so that the students would have a format to do both sides on while practicing the material.  

In our discussions (with Mr. Parker) it was determined that we teach the beginner to punch with the right hand...... right!?  as well as the Left hand.  We teach to kick with the right foot ...... as well as the left foot....... Well if an opponent could attack with a right lapel grab or right punch...... then he could also attack with the opposite........ SO WHY NOT PRACTICE BOTH.  Well, we do, all basics, forms, sets, techniques and drills.

When you really get down to it, all you are doing is practicing the art in its fullness and at the same time working all your body parts like a body builder for symmetry and excellence.  What will it hurt?.......  You ARE TRAINING KENPO! ....... What do you have to do the rest of your life but train Kenpo....... lol.

Now, I'm NOT saying that other "METHODS" of training the Art do not work ..... just that this is as valid as any other and "I personally" see many additional benefits on top of just training the "base side", and I have watched several generations of students do quite well also, that's all.

:asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> When you really get down to it, all you are doing is practicing the art in its fullness and at the same time working all your body parts like a body builder for symmetry and excellence.  What will it hurt?.......  You ARE TRAINING KENPO! ....... What do you have to do the rest of your life but train Kenpo....... lol.
> ...





And what other ADDITIONAL BENEFITS?   


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Zoran (Jul 3, 2002)

I have a question. For those that teach EPAK techs from one side, and it is supposed to be the strong side. Do you teach left handers the tech from the opposite side?


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 3, 2002)

See a problem with practicing a technique both sides, it helps in several ways.  But i think the techniques were designed for right hand dominance but there were also many options with other techniques as well for "what if's".  
How practicing anything on the right or left side is good for anyone, I don't believe I would make it manditory to learn this system that way.


----------



## Zoran (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> 
> *Is.....When we are talking about performing the technique on the opposite side, we talking about us doing it with the other side, i.e Delayed sword with a left inward block, left kick, and left chop?
> And now that the defense has changed does the attack change as well.  Because there are some techniques that won't work with the same attack, and you performing that technique on the opposite side as intended.  Any one else confused yet?   *



Well yes, the attack would be from the other side too. Delayed Sword would be a defense from an attack with the left hand and Sword of Desruction would be a defense from an attack with the right hand.


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 3, 2002)

I didn't get through the whole thread before i replied...once i read through i saw that was part of it too.  I guess i was too anxious to talk.


----------



## Michael Billings (Jul 3, 2002)

Don't be disparaging of other's practicing it!  When you are talking "primitive" or "hind" brain, that too depends on what you have been exposed to and for how long you trained.  When we run Black Belt technique lines and one of the Seniors yells "Left Side", I found it in my best interest to be able to do it on that side.  I was greatful to an instructor who had insisted we learn it on both sides from the get go. 

We do what we are trained to do, hopefully spontaineously, certainly very fast mechanically for Brown Belts. 

Additional benefits - for a beginner, hmmm?  They have a more limited repertoire, say the opponent's friends are on your right; Delayed Sword on the left would keep you facing his friends rather than Sword of Destruction or Alternating Maces where your back is toward your opponents friends (allies.)  It also assists in teaching the beginner to be "active" with both hands as verses an "active" and "passive" hand.  A good drill is running a technique line against a right grab / left grap, right push / left push, right punch / left punch ... then alternate to left first the right throughout the series.  Nice brisk workout to warm up and think about using both hands.

Nope, don't guess I will give it up.  When I did Tracy stuff I was much more one-handed and you could plainly see how the system was implemented in the early 60's.  I see it as adding another layer of sophistication to our training.  But there is room for you and others to do it anyway you want.  Just don't try to convince me your way is "better".

-Michael
UKS-Texas


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 4, 2002)

First off, thanks, Jason, but I don't do private messages when I'm on a public forum. At present, I'm one of Larry Tatum's students out here in Pasadena; my first instructor was  (and is) Toni Wasserberger, who got her BB from Larry around '86--she got kicked by him and by Mr. Parker, so I'd guess that counts.

I am sorry, but I still haven't seen any responses to what I asked. For example, if a left-hander throws a left punch, what--other than a hypothetical attack, when other sorts of hypothesis can easily be offered to show that stepping forward left is a bad idea too--is the objection to either a) using a right-sided tech against a left punch, or b) stepping to the outside of the punch and using Delayed Sword or 5 Swords? It seems simpler to me, but I'm used to it.

Next: what's best for beginners to learn? I learned right side first, but what specifically are the arguments for both sides? beyond generalizations about ambidexterity, that is.

Then: why not let the sets and forms introduce the left side in their own good time? Wouldn't that be easier for students--at least, if they're doofusses such as I?

Last: there are a number of unanalyzed claims in kenpo. The privilege of the right side is one of them--it may be linked to the idea of, "fatherliness," in kenpo, but I'll spare y'all that. For now.

I guess we all get used to what we're used to, though.-


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *I have a question. For those that teach EPAK techs from one side, and it is supposed to be the strong side. Do you teach left handers the tech from the opposite side? *




If they're having a hard time adjusting to it, then yes, but I've only had one that did.    I've found most people may be left handed or left footed, but are dominant right when it comes to techniques for some odd reason (and I'm hoping Scott Bonner knows the answer to this, it would be really interesting to know why).   

Forms and sets give you more than enough symmetry in the art to function with both sides simultaneously (and yes I'm a firm advocate of Left and Right side forms for that reason, especially Short 3),  I'm not going to waste  time doing and teaching all techniques and extensions on the left side when I can use that time to explore what's happening in the technique on the right side knowing it's happening exactly the same on the left side (I'm sure some will argue about the meridians and they're placement that aren't symmetrical).     The system has (the complete one) a built in left mode, especially thru the extensions.   There's all sorts of things happening in those that aren't introduced in the base technique but plenty happening in the base to get a good grasp of it.      Believe me, I don't think it's wrong to teach it,  just a waste of time.    The right side will teach the left side to move, maybe not as fluidly (I can sign my name with my left hand but it sure doesn't look the same) but it will function just fine, just like typing teaches you dual hand coordination. 


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 4, 2002)

[First off, thanks, Jason, but I don't do private messages when I'm on a public forum. At present, I'm one of Larry Tatum's students out here in Pasadena; my first instructor was (and is) Toni Wasserberger, who got her BB from Larry around '86--she got kicked by him and by Mr. Parker, so I'd guess that counts.
QUOTE]

Robert, 
The reason why I asked about the private message was because I didn't know if you wanted your info. all over the internet. Some people are funny that way. As far as my comment about your thoughts and ideas, I thought you had the same instructor I did!!!When reading your post it seemed you took the words right directly from my brain and posted it here. I just couldn't believe that almost exactly word for word was right in front of me. After being with Mr.C once he changed my mind about drills, techniques, and overall knowledge of kenpo. I happen to like his way of teaching, and his many numerous drills to keep practicing kenpo both sides, opposites, and reverses without seeming like your doing the same old ho hum things.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## D.Cobb (Jul 4, 2002)

When I was training in EPAK, we were taught the ideal, then told to practice it on the left almost exclusively and to do it right side for reference only, (this was only in the beginning stages of learning each technique). The theory put forth was that, what ever we taught our weak side, our strong side would learn automatically. So if we were good on our left side, then we'd be great on our right.

It seemed to work for us....
--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Scott Bonner (Jul 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> I've found most people may be left handed or left footed, but are dominant right when it comes to techniques for some odd reason (and I'm hoping Scott Bonner knows the answer to this, it would be really interesting to know why). Clyde [/B]



I wish I could have thrown out some brilliant answer to meet expectations, but I don't have a clue!     

So, I do the next best thing and consult with my wife.  Since she's the one in grad school, she is much more up-to-date on psych stuff.

The old ideas about the brain working in hemispheres and hemisphere dominance (the cause of handedness) is proving too simplistic to explain everything.  Handedness isn't simple or straightforward.  Following brain dominance is the "lazy" way for the brain to figure out how to do things -- it's not a "preference" so much as a default pathway.  Training can quickly override hemisphere dominance, and neural connections will be made for the "off" side that are just as strong as the ones for the "dominant" side -- just as fast and effective, more so if the off side is used more.

This is more true for gross motor functions than fine motor functions, and in martial arts we do gross motor functions.  Also, different people have different degrees of handedness.  Training can and often does override handedness.  For most people, handedness is only a factor for fine motor functions (like writing).  Then, gross motor functions (like throwing a baseball) are taught on the same hand that we write with, so we feel like we are "right handed throwers" when, if we had been taught lefty from the start, we would feel like "left handed throwers".

Martial arts taught from the right for most people will make them "right handed" even if they are lefty for fine motor skills.  With few exceptions, people are no-handed when learning new gross motor skills.  It's just them thinking "I can't do it as well 'cause I'm left handed" that may get in the way.

So, in conclusion, for gross motor skills, handedness is nearly illusory for most people.  Few actually have brain dominance so hard-wired that it significantly affects gross motor skills.  In any case, training overrides hand dominance quickly, so that almost immediately handedness is no longer a factor -- except in one's head.  

On the other hand, I've heard of people who claim they are completely unable to do anything with their "off" hand no matter how hard they try, which means either that they are really good at psyching themselves out or they are among the very few that are so hard-wired for hand dominance that it continues to be a factor in even gross motor functions.

Peace,
Scott


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 8, 2002)

Clyde   IS   mentally illusory!         That answers a lot.

:rofl:


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 8, 2002)

I realize I'm just a tadpole in this pond..  
but as a student and instructor.. I like to train opposite dominate side.. I fight left foot forward and I'm right handed.. I think it's important to develop opposite sides.. we do our teks left and right sided at times.. not only to challenge ourselves but  hey. . there's always' the 'what if situations'   if someone is attacking  with a punch and  the  Martial Art student is a say a beginner and has only learned a few teks.. are they going to be able to reach into their muscle memory recall for a left handed tek? Probably not as they haven't learned many yet.. so why not instill in them early.. Sword of Destruction .. left sided and right sided.. It sure will come in handy when they are doing Long forms 

Just my opinion 

Tess


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 8, 2002)

My instructor does not require techniques to be learned on both sides, with the reasoning that there are techs for left punches, and techs for right punches, so all the bases are covered.

Personally, just for my own benefit, I do learn them on both sides.  I have a little trick for doing so, though.  I type up all my technique notes anyway (hehe...I am so much a child of the digital age that I do not even own a pen. I type EVERYTHING), so I just go into my wordprocessing program and tell it to replace left with right, and right with left.  That way, I can look at my notes, and switch the techniques around without getting confused.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 8, 2002)

Here's my problem with all this.

Handedness is inherent in kenpo.

It may or may not be hard-wired--but if you think it isn't a cultural and a historical reality, try opening doors with your right hand rather than your left, when the door opens toward you. We have all sorts of cultural assumptions about handedness--what does "sinister," mean?--and these run throughout the kenpo system.

Which side does a male student's knot go on? which side does a woman or girl's? With which foot does one step out into a horse stance, and why? Why do the forms and sets all start with right-sided movement?

And I still haven't seen an explanation for not letting the sets and forms "balance," us out in their own good time. I still haven't seen an explanation of why it's necessary to start teaching students in ways our teachers weren't taught--other than, I am afraid, a comment or two to the effect that if we don't teach the techs on both sides, students will get bored. The mosst interesting thing I noted, in fact, was a suggestion that right-handedness is a hangover from the older Tracy kenpo/Chinese kenpo one-handed days. OK, makes sense to me.

Hate to seem dense, and I am of course speaking out of my own training, but I still don't understand: why do Delayed Sword on both sides, when teaching a student to step back with the left and block with the right--Sword of Destruction--is exactly how the first ten yellow techniques are arranged? Or to put this another way: if the folks who were trained to think on both sides were first trained to think on the right side first, how'd they get to learn to think on the left? And why not teach students that way, since it worked?

Last: what's the best way to get students to develop power--not ambidexterity, but power?

Sorry, I guess I'm a bit thick this week.

Thanks for the commentaries,
Robert


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 9, 2002)

Clyde:

I object to your consistant use of "weaker side" to describe the left side.  YOUR left side may be weaker, but please don't generalize for the rest of us.    A decent percentage of the world's population is left handed.  And as for me, well, I'm just weird.

I happen to write with my right hand, usually, but if it gets tired, I'll just switch to my left.  Writing is just as fast and as legible.  I paint with my left hand. I bat left handed because that's just the way I happened to stand my first time in a batter's box, but I throw right handed, but only because my baseball glove is right handed.  I've played baseball with a lefty's glove and did just fine. I fence left handed, because the person who taught me sword arts was a lefty, so that's how I learned.  I generally spar left handed, for the sole reason that it seems to make my opponent uncomfortable, because the rest of the martial arts world tends to fight righty (my opinion here is that this is a learned thing rather than a "handedness" thing).  And for the record, I started out completely right handed.  

I'm not sure if it was from growing up in the digital age with video games and the like, or just a desire to be ambidextrous (I really had to work on the small muscle control in my left hand, because when I was little, I thought that being able to do things either handed was cool, so I put a lot of effort into learning. This came in very handy when I had surgery on my right wrist and couldn't write with that hand for two months).

I may be unique, but I don't think so.  My cousins are the same way (and I was adopted, so it isn't genetic).  I think its from video games like nintendo and such, because kids today are forced to learn small muscle control in both hands if they want to be really good at vid games.  We live in a generation that is becoming less and less dependant on writing, and therefore less dependant on "handedness"  Whoever it was that wrote that "Training can quickly overcome hemisphere dominance" was very correct, and schools today are seeing more and more students who are left handed or comfortable with either hand because of this small muscle training early in life.  (I'm almost finished with a master's in Education...they tell us some wacky facts in those classes  )  Soon, left handed attacks may become nearly as common as right hand attacks, and training the techniques on both sides doesn't cause confusion, it gives options.

For example, on one of my belt tests, the attacker was told "one hand shoulder grab" to attack me.  The other student, who was bigger than I was, but testing for a lower rank, grabbed me by the left shoulder instead of the right, even though we were doing orange belt stuff.... guess what I did?....you guessed it...obscure wing on the left side.  It was instinct, because I'd practiced it, and I practiced it until it was instinct.  I wasn't required to practice it; I learned it on my own.  However, it did get me a couple of brownie points on the test, because I didn't have to think about it. I felt the attack and reacted, which is how kenpo should be.


Respectfully,

Nightingale


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 9, 2002)

My point exactly....

:asian:


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 9, 2002)

Thank ye, oh golden one.  :asian:


----------



## satans.barber (Jul 9, 2002)

Exactly, I'm right handed and left legged, so in a left stance I have quick lead roundhouses and stomps, with a strong cross, or in a right stane I have a fast and strong jab and good rear kicks, and a good lead sweep.

I change stances when sparring every 30 seconds or so as it makes me feel comfortable and distracts people, I wouldn't call one side weaker than the other.

Ian.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 9, 2002)

Here's my concern.

I realize, of course, that we needn't do everything in kenpo the same way that They did it back when Giants Ruled the Earth (you know--the Sixties), and that change is part of all martial arts and especially part of kenpo. Of course, I recollect the constant injunctions in kenpo about tailoring the art to fit ourselves. I know that I am the product of the way I was taught. And I even see that no two people are alike; I might even be persuaded that I am, personally, a little too committed to rote repetition.

OK. 

But here's my issue: teaching. I associate this "ambidexterity," stuff with the repeated assertion in kenpo that we can cut down the techniques per belt level and do no damage to what (and how well) students learn. I associate it with the idea, often advanced by folks who had to learn forms and sets to get good, that we don't need the forms and sets. And, I wonder to what extent we're castrating our students when we jack around too much, too early, with the organized system and the Web of Knowledge.

I'm asking for a couple of reasons, the first of which is that I've observed that when students who teach get to a certain level, they get bored with teaching the same old same old--and they start either a) jacking around with what they were taught, or b) teaching white belts material that's not only above the white belt's head, but which is actively damaging to the white belt's progress. There's a nice article by Ted Mancuso on the Plum Publications web site (started in kenpo and got his BB from Mr. Parker) on the matter: it's called, "Vanilla Kung- Fu." So, for example, we don't wanna teach Short 1 any more because we're bored--usually because we haven't looked deeply enough to be engaged. And we shove students on to Short 2 before they're ready...because we're bored.

My point's probably pathetically clear. But again I want to ask: what's the best way to get students to develop power--not ambidexterity, but power? What's the best way to lay down a good foundation for later study, rather than creating cul-de-sacs in training that students are going to have a hard time navigating out of? One way to see this: all of the posts so far have talked about hand ambidexterity. Have any even mentioned stances--not just switches, but developing confidence in one's stances and stance work?

Or just to bedevil my side of the argument. These techniques weren't handed down from Sinai, you know. How much of this stuff about right sidedness is just rote repetition? Do we have any actual information on the best way to get students to where we'd like to think we are?

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## Klondike93 (Jul 10, 2002)

I had discussed this with my instructor and he was telling me you really don't need to practice both sides because the techniques have all built in. Then what's he do, he's going over a simple technique, Twirling Wings, and tells us to do it from both sides.
Felt a tad awkward at first, then no probs at all. But, now I'm going to go back and work all the techniques from the other side to become familiar with them. But I'd say if you don't do them from both sides, don't worry about it, maybe just try it on your own and see what happens.


Oh and I'm right handed and I always fight with a left lead. I idolized Bill Wallace as a kid so I devloped a good left leg. Plus being right handed that's my power hand so I like to have it back for the KO punch.


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 10, 2002)

students to develop form, power, or anything else if they commit to my training régime (The Process).  First we lay down the basics which encompass all the initial maneuvers stances, blocks, parries, punches, strikes, finger techniques, foot maneuvers, & kicks all the while teaching key principles such as proper body alignment and others that are important at this level. 

As they develop with time and a watchful eye they increase in coordination, confidence, and skill.  

So I don't have an answer to your question  other than what it is that you are doing.

:asian:


----------



## Ronin (Jul 10, 2002)

In my opinion and being a student of "both sides" I think it makes for a more complete black belt.  Think about all we hear on a lot of these forums is people opinions on how to cut things short. Whats the big hurry?  There are many top instructors that never were required when they were coming through the ranks to do the opposite sides.  But dont you think if you were asked during a seminar to do the opposite side of a technique that it would make you look that much better and more of a complete student. They dont cover those things because most people dont practice the opposite side and therefore the dont want to look awkward.   If I was to test for black belt and was asked to do the opposite side I would do it without hesitation and would be to embarassed to say i dont do opposite sides.  When i accept my rank i'll be that much prouder and in my opinion a more complete student.   In other words I can do far more than the others that accept their black belt knowing only "half " the stuff i know.  No offense to anyone. I must bow out of these debates and get back to working out,  something I think Mr. Parker would do insteading of bitching on a computer.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *Clyde:
> 
> ...



Show me where I've been consistent saying weak side, I wrote it once.        Yes, there is a percentage of the population that's right hemisphere dominant, and there's a helluva lot less that are true ambidextrious, and  I also fight left leg forward, so what?    I doesn't change anything.


By the way, Dennis, you never posted the other benefits of training both sides, you know, just being non-illusive.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Orig. posted by ProfessorKenpo_*
> By the way, Dennis, you never posted the other benefits of training both sides, you know, just being non-illusive.
> *



Actually I did, but then went back to view them a couple days later  only to not find them posted......  

Here are several benefits that I have experienced either physically or perceived ...

* Increased reaction time
* Increased physical mobility
* Increased coordination
* Greater understanding of Self Defense Techniques
* Increased confidence
* An arsenal of drills without leaving the system
* Increased focus on movements
* Smoother transitions between movements
* A greater sense of completeness thru knowing 
  oneself to a greater degree
* An increased understanding of Master Key actions
* A clear increase in ambidextrous movements
and others

Like I said before, I personally see and have for years experienced a marked difference in the students that I have trained, but the base system as someone pointed out does also, in fact, cover many bases but in a more obscure way. 

I just merely present my feelings on the matter not knocking others or the path that they choose to train on, some may find no reason to do the training as I have chosen, that is ok there are many roads that may lead to Rome, but I wouldn't consider it a "waste of time" if they are training Kenpo and making progress.  I have much more class than to make rude comments like that.

:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> 
> *In my opinion and being a student of "both sides" I think it makes for a more complete black belt.  Think about all we hear on a lot of these forums is people opinions on how to cut things short. Whats the big hurry?  There are many top instructors that never were required when they were coming through the ranks to do the opposite sides.  But dont you think if you were asked during a seminar to do the opposite side of a technique that it would make you look that much better and more of a complete student. They dont cover those things because most people dont practice the opposite side and therefore the dont want to look awkward.   If I was to test for black belt and was asked to do the opposite side I would do it without hesitation and would be to embarassed to say i dont do opposite sides.  When i accept my rank i'll be that much prouder and in my opinion a more complete student.   In other words I can do far more than the others that accept their black belt knowing only "half " the stuff i know.  No offense to anyone. I must bow out of these debates and get back to working out,  something I think Mr. Parker would do insteading of bitching on a computer. *


Ofcourse a good amount of the techniques are done on both sides in long forms 3, 4, 5, and 6.  So a black belt who "only" knows half as much as you would be able to do it on both sides anyway. Ofcourse we all know that doing a technique at a seminar and saving face is the most important thing here anyway.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 10, 2002)

Nooooooo  I think you missed the point all together.......

but I can see where some may view it that way....... 

there are always different interpretations of the written word without actually seeing an individual perform.......

:asian:


----------



## Seig (Jul 11, 2002)

I personally feel it all comes down to a matter of perception.  I have not made a point of making my students do all the techs right vs left side.  I see a value in it though.  I am naturally left handed and right footed.  I used to pick a technique at random and make it solely left handed, as my students saw it, just to mess with them.  The truth was, I was trying to break them out of the box.  He who stays in the box, winds up in a box.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 11, 2002)

First off, I'm going to try and stay out of the issue of textual criticism--nope, changed my mind. I think the post in regard to certain theories of what's important was right on target. It may not be what was intended to be intended, but once you've said that practicing both sides makes you look, "better and more of a complete student," (it was a rhetorical question, not a real one), once you've said that others do not run the techniques on both sides in public because, "they don't want to look awkward," once you've said, "I can do far more than the others that accept their black belt knowing only 'half,' the stuff that I know," you have made a claim of superiority. (Why the quotes around, 'half?' ) Papering it over with a quick, "No offense to anybody," is mere denegation, and only re-confirms the original assertion of superiority. 

Again: is this a matter of what's best for students, or our boredom as instructors?  How would we go about proving the case--experience, anecdote, are at best merely indicative, not proofs in and of themselves? Since assertions of authority seem to be in part the issue, why'd the Web of Knowledge and the techniques get laid out the way they are, if ambidexterity is such a consideration? Is developing power an issue in this? 

I do not claim to have counterbalancing proofs. I only argue that developing the right first, and moving toward--not arriving at, but moving toward--balance in the normal course of training up through the techs, sets and forms has a simple and elegant rationale.

And again: why is right-handedness built into kenpo at the level of basics, of forms and sets, of ritual and salutation as well as (for some, not all) techniques? I'd argue that it is because this enables a student, from early on, to adapt a tech like Obscure Wing (as one poster remarked) for a left-sided grab.

Or so I'd argue. Thank you all for the interesting and illuminating discussion, about which I will think.


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 11, 2002)

> And again: why is right-handedness built into kenpo at the level of basics, of forms and sets, of ritual and salutation as well as (for some, not all) techniques? I'd argue that it is because this enables a student, from early on, to adapt a tech like Obscure Wing (as one poster remarked) for a left-sided grab.



If this is your question...then I must ask for clarification...do you mean righthandedness with the attacks in which we defend against?  Or in the self defense techniques themselves?
Personally i feel that the execution of basics individually works both sides.  For example, when performing basic punches you START with the RIGHT hand, but you actually perform the punches with both hands.  So in a sense it is Right handed, but both sides are worked equally.  But as for everything else, with the exception of my question about the techniques, they do seem right hand dominant.  
As for Why everything starts on the right side, I don't know.


----------



## brianhunter (Jul 11, 2002)

its not whos right, its whos left! But can anyone tell me whos on first?


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> And again: why is right-handedness built into kenpo at the level of basics, of forms and sets, of ritual and salutation as well as (for some, not all) techniques? I'd argue that it is because this enables a student, from early on, to adapt a tech like Obscure Wing (as one poster remarked) for a left-sided grab.
> [/B]



Well, the reason I do both sides, (and my instructor doesn't require it, I do it on my own) is that when you need to adapt a technique like the one above...and I haven't learned any kenpo techniques for a left sided rear one hand grab, only the one from the right side....  I'd rather have adapted them in the studio, so I know what I'm doing.

Personally, I practice my techniques to improve my reaction time and limit my think time to a minimum.  I try to train myself to the point where I react first and think later.  However, this theory only works (and it does work, I've been there) if you've practiced things in the right situation.  In the test situation in my previous post, if I hadn't practiced obscure wing on the other side, I probably would have stood there for a second and thought about it.  Not only would that have looked stupid, but more importantly, if you have to take a second to think about something in a street situation, that'll probably be the last second of your life.

I don't always do all the techniques reversed.  I do them where I see that the left side attack isn't well covered.  We have techniques for left hand punches, so I don't always reverse those. We don't have many techniques for a grab with the right hand (most people will grab lefty and hit righty) other than handshake techniques, and we don't have a lot of techniques for opposite hand pushes.  Those are the techniques I concentrate on doing the opposite side of.  

Like I said earlier, I'd rather take the time to adapt a technique in the studio and have a plan, than go into a street situation and have to adapt in the street.  Studio is a much safer place to learn.

Respectfully,

Nightingale


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 11, 2002)

> its not whos right, its whos left! But can anyone tell me whos on first?



Could you define "first" ?


----------



## Ronin (Jul 11, 2002)

I've always been under the belief that it's better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it. That is my opinion on this left/right debate.  Professor Kenpo believes it to be a waste of time.  I believe it to be just merely another training drill to become that much better of a student. Further more thats like me saying as a cop, whats the use of learning how to shoot and operate my gun with my opposite hand. Because someday I may need that extra training.  All it is a greater opportunity to do the art we love.  We all know that there are many great martial artisits out there however, there are even more bad ones than good ones out there who are poisoning the martial arts community.  I just want to be known for being a versatile kenpo student.  Again I never ment to upset anyone on my first response.  Theres a lot of people in here who tear apart anyones opinions if they are not in tune with their own.  I think we should get along and not be so offended with what others post.  Excuse me for my writing style and mistakes I'm a kenpo student not an english professor.    All the best in Kenpo!!


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Dennis, these are all good reasons for training Kenpo, but not L/R specific other than the ambidextrous one, but that falls in line with symmetry.        A greater sense of completeness, would  you explain that for me?    How would you get an increased understanding of Master Key actions by simply doing them on the opposite side?

As for you being to classy to be rude, hmmm,  I'd disagree with  your comment .    Me, I make no bones about about being rude or obnoxious, in fact, I take pride in it, and as I've said in the past, at least if I'm gonna give it to ya, you'll see the knife.    I am my own man and hide behind no barriers and if you don't like what I say, you can do something about it, or ignore it, either way is good with me.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Ronin (Jul 12, 2002)

mental note to self: Kill Professor Kenpo    actions: rude and unwarranted comments to senior kenpo members.


----------



## Kirk (Jul 12, 2002)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Kirk
-MT Mod-


----------



## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

Is it getting hostile in here or what....

When people refer to killing one another I think it is time to leave the thread alone....:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 12, 2002)

Everybody place your bets!!!!!!!

I have seen both of you move.  No contest.

It will be quick and fatal.

So long Clyde.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## brianhunter (Jul 12, 2002)

I can not believe that people are being "beaten up" for having ideas outside the norm. I thought that is what kenpo is all about, is thinking outside the box or outside the norm.......If you agreed with someone 100 percent of the time you are not being your own person and you are not properly expressing yourself in spirit or in life.......its called brown nosing. To come on here and say you will "kill" someone because of the simple fact that they disagreed with someone is wrong. I dont care what the rank is or who they are disagreeing with. Last time I raised the colors at work they where Red White and Blue not red with a little splash of Yellow! This should be what kenpo is all about the right to practice the art the way they see fit and disagree when they honestly object. Sometimes people can agree to disagree and I think alot of us (myself included) shoudl practice this more often. Stating you will "kill" someone because they do not agree or you object to their statements Is close minded and absolutely against what being a martial artist is all about. No Im not a senior in the art by any means, and no Im not even a black belt, but these qualifications do not automatically validate any point that will come out of your mouth. Clyde and Mr. C can agree to disagree on their own. Some of you guys are just too entirely eager to jump off the bridge because you watched everyone else do it. I respect both men greatly and I think some of you need to be more objective.


----------



## Ronin (Jul 12, 2002)

Hey guys it appears my comment which was ment to be a joke has blown up out of control.  I never meant any harm to PK just saying I disagree with his thoughts.  I forget that with this computer lifestyle that comments I write can be taken literally. For this I am sorry to have offended you all.  People on here that do know me realize I am a wise ***.  So again for anyone whos feelings I have hurt I'm deeply sorry and bow to you with respect.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _*
> A greater sense of completeness, would  you explain that for me?
> *



I have felt (and students have related to me and said the same) that it makes them feel like they know the "front and back" and have  greater confidence and feel like you understand the movement more completely training this way.  Granted it takes a while until you feel more comfortable but like anything it just takes time.  

*



			How would you get an increased understanding of Master Key actions by simply doing them on the opposite side?
		
Click to expand...

*
Well, It could be just me, however, after doing the movements for as long as I have and after hours of careful examination you realize the duplication of major actions no matter which way you step or which of the 2 arms that you use.  There are only a certain amount of options available.    It was a help to me in that understanding.

*



			As for you being to classy to be rude, hmmm,  I'd disagree with  your comment .
		
Click to expand...

*
Well, you don't know me well enough but :rofl: I would agree that I do have the ability to be rude!  :rofl:  I do try to be civil on these public forums and respect others positions and opinions most of the time even if I disagree with them.

*



			Me, I make no bones about about being rude or obnoxious, in fact, I take pride in it, and as I've said in the past, at least if I'm gonna give it to ya, you'll see the knife.
		
Click to expand...

*
I'm sure everyone received that message.

*



			I am my own man and hide behind no barriers and if you don't like what I say, you can do something about it, or ignore it, either way is good with me.
		
Click to expand...

*
I certainly didn't challenge You, your manhood, or said that you hid behind an barriers, so I really don't understand your comment.
:rofl:


----------



## Cthulhu (Jul 12, 2002)

Keep the discussion polite and respectful or this thread will be locked.

Cthulhu
-MT Mod.-


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> 
> *Everybody place your bets!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



What have you been smoking?


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## arnisador (Jul 12, 2002)

Everyone, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## warriorsage (Jul 12, 2002)

I'm a big fan of trying to do everything both handed. I can play ping pong, throw a football and play basketball fairly well southpaw. Still, I don't know if forcing students to do all tech's both ways in a necessity. For me, YES, but for everyone, the jury is still out.

OK, here's my question: If you have a lstudent who is a lefty, wouldn't it be in his/her best interest to allow them to do the opposite of the technique? Aren't they being cheated out of the opportunity to "put their best foot forward?"

Or for a righty, how many techniques do we have that use a left inward block to the inside of a left punch...or a left extended outward to the inside of a right punch? I ask these questions for righties because I'm picturing myself standing in such a way that an opponent may attack from my left flank with a punch that won't allow me the angle to do, let's say "Thundering Hammers" or won't give me the time to step back into a right neutral bow. It would seem that if I was well versed with the motion contained in "Sword of Destruction" from the opposite side, then I could respond quicker, more naturally with this type of motion.

Any ideas?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 13, 2002)

My question is, if you always do something with the same arm, what do you do when that arm is out?  (broken, previous injury, injured in the existing conflict?)

I think doing things on both sides is good, in that it opens options to you.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 13, 2002)

It isn't a question of, "always doing things with the same arm." It's a series of questions about: a) doesn't kenpo privilege the right side, b) is there a reasonable ground for this, c) how does our tendency to boredom influence our "discovery," of "newer and better," training methods, d) what is the best way to bring others along with us, e) what are the advantages to all this supposed ambidexterity, f) what proofs can we offer for advantages on any side of this discussion, g) what in the tradition of kenpo is right-sided (as opposed to right-handed), h) doesn't the ordinary course of training bring the left along with it, in its own good time.

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 13, 2002)

To your last line.  Yes.


----------



## warriorsage (Jul 13, 2002)

Robert and Eternalwhitebelt, I also agree to the last question, but again, what about the left-handed person? Should we make that person wait for the "eventually" that we all speak of, when their left hand is finally taken into consideration? 

Hypothetically speaking, say you had a new or prospective student and you were taking him/her through some basics and went on to teach Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction. And let's say you mentioned how these techniques allow them to work off the front side for strength/speed/convenience/proximity to targets/etc. At this point, what if (uh oh) the student  asks, "Well I'm left handed...couldn't I do DS for the left attack and SOD for the right attack?" What is the hypothetical response? I look forward to the answers.

~whip


----------



## Ronin (Jul 13, 2002)

Cant we all just get along??


----------



## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 13, 2002)

There is no left and right handed.  You do what you have been taught.  Is crossing talons a rigt or left handed tech?  Which hand does most of the work?  



I thought we were all getting along?


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 13, 2002)

Maybe we should say initial technique - - -  then mirror image?   LOL

:asian:


----------



## Ronin (Jul 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *My question is, if you always do something with the same arm, what do you do when that arm is out?  (broken, previous injury, injured in the existing conflict?)
> 
> I think doing things on both sides is good, in that it opens options to you. *


  thats why i believe training both hands is very practical and should be taught everywhere.  As a cop i've had a friend shot in his primary arm and thank God he learned and trained to use and operate his weapon with his support or opposite hand. it saved his life.  what can it really hurt to practice both sides???  im not saying anyone who doesnt is a bad martial artist.  But i think it would be just more practice to get great.


----------



## ikenpo (Jul 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Clyde,

I was checking out the form 8 videos and no where in there did Mr. Tatum mention anything about having to let the person "see the knife"......you might want to double check with Mr. T. 

But I bet if you trained both sides you could hold it in the other hand and the person wouldn't have to see it all....LOL

Thank you both for the enlightening discussion...nothing like bringing a little "martial" back into martial arts...

jb:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 14, 2002)

since you were enlightened I have to thank the opposition for the darkness so as to allow the truth to shine forth   ......Lol

:asian:


----------



## Rainman (Jul 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Maybe we should say initial technique - - -  then mirror image?   LOL
> 
> :asian: *


 

Sounds good to me- since we've had that debate eveyone should have that understanding.  Such a simple concept I would have thought that people would be glad for the insights...  Or at least challenge the concept of mirror image along with opposites and reverses. 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 14, 2002)

:asian:


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 15, 2002)

some techniques don't really need an opposite side, though, like circling wing, or crashing wings or striking serpent's head.  The attacks are two hand attacks and there's no way to reverse the attack, therefore there isn't any need to reverse the technique except in the case of a handicap or injury.  However, on techniques like grip of death, locking horns, obscure wing, obscure sword, and the punch and kick techniques, I always reverse the technique, because the attack could come from the other side.


----------



## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *some techniques don't really need an opposite side, though, like circling wing, or crashing wings or striking serpent's head.  The attacks are two hand attacks and there's no way to reverse the attack, therefore there isn't any need to reverse the technique except in the case of a handicap or injury.  However, on techniques like grip of death, locking horns, obscure wing, obscure sword, and the punch and kick techniques, I always reverse the technique, because the attack could come from the other side. *



If you are looking at it from all three points of view, you might change your mind.  Now I think I am arguing for the other side!  But seriously, If you take multiple opponents into account and your environement into account, then moving in a certain direction may not be possible or advantagous.  If you do circling wing or crashing wings and you have another oppenent at 3 o'clock you may be in trouble.  Just food for thought.  I agree with the fact that doing techs. on both sides will only make you better.  My argument is that it is unrealistic to expect people to put that much time into it.  Most students  I see struggle to just understand the principals on one side.  In time if they stick with it the later forms begin to work both sides and I find that the problem kind of taks care of it self.  Most good black belts I know can do most techs. on the opposite side anyway just because it is built into the system with all of the mirror images, opposites, and reverses, and what ifs that we get into.  It doesn't really matter but it is fun to debate it though.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _*
> Some techniques like "Striking Serpents Head" doesn't really need an opposite side, except in the case of a handicap or injury.
> *



Well, you are on the right track but.... be sure to take in ALL considerations not just a couple ......

For example.........

What about Environmental obstructions..... (Environment issue)
What about if his head is on the right or left side of your head (Range issue)
What if he has you  bending to one side or the other.... (Position issue)
What if he has your "base" arm pinned to the wall ..... (Maneuvers issue)

:asian:


----------



## Nightingale (Jul 15, 2002)

point conceded, GD.  :asian:


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2002)

Is there anyone that knows of a technique that deals with a headlock from the left side.  That means they are on your right side, as opposed to your left side, and they are grabbing you with their left hand.  Just curious, I can't think of any...


----------



## Klondike93 (Jul 17, 2002)

But I have found that when we do these kinds of chokes I usually end up finishing with Grip of Death regardless of the side the choke is being applied to.  Plus in short 3 you do grip of death to the right instead of the left, so I think it's one of those techniques that just works from either side without much thought.



:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> But in short 3 you do grip of death to the right flank instead of the left...
> *



There you go.....


----------



## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 17, 2002)

Man I am pretty sure I said that.


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 18, 2002)

I am actually more inclined to do Grip of Death on the left side anyway.  I always want to turn my head to the right instead of the left, which starts me in the direction of moving to my right.  
But being the lefty that i am, I tend to be backwards sometimes.


----------



## brianhunter (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




No comment......I guess in saying no comment I am making a comment though??


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




How insightful!!!!


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *But I have found that when we do these kinds of chokes I usually end up finishing with Grip of Death regardless of the side the choke is being applied to.  Plus in short 3 you do grip of death to the right instead of the left, so I think it's one of those techniques that just works from either side without much thought.
> 
> ...




It's not Grip of Death on the Left Side as much as it looks like it from what I've been taught.   Look at the techniques prior and you'll see the other applications.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




That is my thinking too!


----------

