# Minimum Standards for Taekwondo



## TigerWoman (Nov 25, 2004)

I'm not a master but feel there should be minimum standards to pass a black belt test.  

Some categories would be:

 1) Flexibility - I think everybody can gain this, if worked on. The ability to kick to head level at least is important in TKD. 

2) Upper body strength - regular pushups minimum 50? or 100? I got up to 400 in sets before failure at age 53 though.

3) Forms, of course, Taeguek, Traditional Chonji etc., Palgwe, ?
demonstrate good stances, blocks, high kicks held, balance, memory (enough practice) 

4) Endurance - be able to run for 30 min.-10min. mile. = 3 miles

5) Kicks - I have listed 45 techniques kicking, these I had to know testing for 2nd so lst would be less maybe.

6) Slow motion kicks - (to a count of 7 hold at count 3-5 down at 7) front, round, side, spin side, spin heel ( high-head level except spin side)

7)  Sparring we do 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 opponents. 5 min. matches.  Looking for?

8)  Breaking?  Colored belts:  step side, hopping side, spin side, spin heel, step hook, jump round, jump back, spin heel with 1 hand hold

Rec. Black - spin heel with 2 finger hold, 360 jump back, knife while holding board (speed break), palm strike 3 bds.

1st Black - knife boards or palm strike concrete, guys-punch, flying side-3 bds, sweep or football kick. 

Just a note to breaking: our school also does not have a time limit on these breaks so frequently it spills over into the weeks and possibly months following tests. 

9) Personal/moral standards - our school used to ask questions at the end of every test, now we do papers on integrity, courtesy, etc. and questions.  How about community service as well?

10)  Attendance - this is a personal bug of mine. Minimum time in belt.
Minimim amount of hours spent in class.  Some people come late and leave early as much as a half hour only in class a week.  I think there should be an attendance record.  2 times a week minimum x 12 weeks for white belt = 24 hours.  Red - Black belt = 5 times a week.  Too many people in my school are testing with very little time spent and its obvious.

11) Self-Defense- we have 30 attacks and defenses. (but we have learned others we are not tested on)

12) One-Steps--  Our school stopped these. ??

13) What have I missed?  Add here...

Not that we are going to change Taekwondo universally.  I just would like to know what everybody thinks _should_ be the standards. 

Then there is the physically handicapped factor, and the age factor, but aside from that...

Please, just Taekwondo people input on this. Thanks, TW


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## Miles (Nov 25, 2004)

This could be a really interesting thread. 

I use the Kukkiwon's standards for black belt promotion.  These are minimum standards upon which I expand.

I don't have requirements for #s of push-ups/sit-ups/miles run/community service/flexibility. My personal idea of a black belt is that it is a landmark achievement along the journey but not the final goal.  Therefore, I look at how far someone has progressed in their journey-it is different for an 18yr old athlete than a 60 yr old factory worker.

I do have minimum attendance policies-if the student (at any rank) does not have the necessary time in grade and classes attended, they do not test.

My black belt tests are typically done 2x/yr.  I had a young man test for his 1st poom last week.  I don't let anyone test for poom unless they have a B average in school.  They also must have participated in at least 2 tournaments.

This young man's test was pretty standard-He performed all basic techniques (Kibon).  He demonstrated our footwork drills (chun-jin/who-jin, ilbo-chun-jin, ilbo who-jin, cut step).  He did Hoshinsul against wrist grabs/lapel grabs, hair grap, over-arm bear hug, etc.  He performed the 5 Chung Do Kwan Kibon poomsae along with entire Taeguek poomsae series.  He sparred 4 rounds of 2 minutes against fresh opponents and then 2 rounds of 2 minutes against 2 opponents.  Kyukpa-he broke boards with front/round/side/ax kicks (I don't have anyone under 18 perform breaking with their hands).  He answered questions concerning history/philosophy/personal goals.

My bottom line for black belt is stated at each and every black belt test: This person is a representative of the art, the school, and me.  

Miles


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## terryl965 (Nov 25, 2004)

TW here is my input on some of this:
1st Physical Fitness: Push-ups-mountain climbers-calf raises-jump in jacks- squarts-squarts thrush- high knees- running- being able to throw atleast 150 kicks in 1 minute set of three each leg. Break for 15 minutes
2.start off by demistrating your on ability to propably throw each kick, slow-medium-and hard. then move to your hand work jab,straight punch-low -mid-high. Ridge hand .spear.knife. back hand. 15 minute break
3. One-steps we teach 15 and you must show atleast 20 more variation of those one-steps. lunch 1 hr.
4. Poomse-Tae Gueks 1-8 Koryo-Kumkang so-on. also Chongi for we teach them.
5. Self defense sets of the ones you know
6.Sparring 1 on 1 five sets.2 on 1 five sets, 3 on 1 three sets and last but not least 1 on with the Master choice, which is always the biggest for you are tired and to see what you have left.
6. 10 page thesis on why you are in TKD and what you want from your next rank.
7 Breaking atleast five different variation of your strengths in this field( one should not fail if you can't make one of your breaks) its there for demostration only.
 Last thing of the night Bow out and wait for my reply.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 25, 2004)

I forgot to say that before we start BB test, we do 200 rising kicks..

Also, 12 tournaments are required for Rec. BB

I recently saw seven would-be BB's test.  Except for the women they all had major flexibility issues. No front kicks over belt level. One man couldn't do a crescent kick to belt level. 2 teens, 3 men, 2 women.  Neither had I seen any of them actually work on flexibility.  We do little stretching, so I had a stretching class.  Out of about 200 students, five show up with 3 times available.  I was not flexible starting TKD at 47.  My legs slid out from underneath me trying to do 15 split pushups barely.  Flexiblity/stretching, I think should have a important role in regular training.  At 55, I am in near splits, front and side. I have not done this diligently either but made an effort if I could remember after class or had time. If a person does not have a bad back,hips, or a bone structure that prohibits splits etc., I really think it should be a requirement to work on flexibility.  And yes, women seem to work on this more and have more progress. TW


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## Crash02 (Nov 25, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> This could be a really interesting thread.
> 
> I use the Kukkiwon's standards for black belt promotion. These are minimum standards upon which I expand.
> 
> Miles


I was wondering, since this is a minimum standards thread, could you post Kukkiwon's standards for black belt promotion.


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## Adept (Nov 25, 2004)

Like I've said before, our BB tests were more of a formality than anything else. You werent asked to grade unless you had already demonstrated the skill, stamina, strength and determination required. The test itself was really just a ceremony.

 You had to demonstrate decent strength  - 80 push ups on the knuckles, at least 200 sit ups.

 Skill level - competent techniques, all strikes, grapples, takedowns and throws, self defense techniques, etc.

 Stamina - No running (too much hassle) but a solid six hour workout

 Sparring - Over an hour of solid sparring with fresh rotating partners. Usually you had to spar all of the dan black belts, and all of the brown (red) belts with only a very short drink break every few rounds. Then you spar the other people testing with you, then you spar everyone else again. This is usually the hardest part of the test.

 We never really concentrated on breaking, because frankly its a useless skill. We still did it, because it looks cool and it impresses the families and the white belts, but if someone didnt want to do it, or couldnt do it, there was no penalty


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## Mithios (Nov 25, 2004)

Interesting!  I do classical T.K.D., We have 163 individual techniques before black. 90 hand/73 kicks, 9 forms, 90 self defense combo's( joint lock's throws, 1 steps, 2 steps, etc.) Also sparring, weapon's defense, breaking etc. Average time to black is around 5 year's. Cool to see what everyone else is doing.     Mithios


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## TigerWoman (Nov 25, 2004)

Adept, are you Taekwondo or MMA?  No offense, but I just was interested in  strictly Taekwondo discipline standards.  We always have forms.... TW


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## TigerWoman (Nov 25, 2004)

Mithios said:
			
		

> Interesting!  I do classical T.K.D., We have 163 individual techniques before black. 90 hand/73 kicks, 9 forms, 90 self defense combo's( joint lock's throws, 1 steps, 2 steps, etc.) Also sparring, weapon's defense, breaking etc. Average time to black is around 5 year's. Cool to see what everyone else is doing.     Mithios



This is cool to see!  Do you test on all 163 techniques during a test or do you just have different lists on some? Would take some time. Classical TKD, is that Chonji, ITF style?  or Palgwes? or ?  TW


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## Miles (Nov 25, 2004)

Crash02 said:
			
		

> I was wondering, since this is a minimum standards thread, could you post Kukkiwon's standards for black belt promotion.


Crash02, per your request are Kukkiwon's applicable Regulation for Promotion Tests (Articles 7, 8 (re: age/time in grade); 10 (Content of Test) & 11 (Poomsae required)):

Article 7 : Test Performance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





1) Each test will consist of practical testing and theoretical study and it will be carried out in the following ways:
(1) Practical testing only will be applied to the applicants for under 5th Dan grades, however, if necessary, theoretical study will be required in the 4th and 5th Dan promotion test.
(2) Over 6th Dan promotion testing shall conduct the practical and theoretical test. However, for a applicants staying abroad, practical test shall be conducted and recommended by the instructor who is recognized by the Kukkiwon or Member National Association. However one should submit a treatise not less than 10 pages of A4 size (21cm X 30cm) papers in Korean, English, French, German or Spanish together with the application forms. Subject will be determined separately.

2) Promotion test for under 5th Dan may be entrusted to the city or province Taekwondo Association. However, the Member National Federation will exclusively manage and perform the tests for higher Dan grades (6th Dan and higher). If considered necessary, however, the execution of tests may be adjustable.

3) Applicants worldwide for 8th and 9th Dan promotion should take physical performance test at the Kukkiwon. The test is conducted in every quarter of the year. Test of applicants from outside Korea for 7th or lower Dan can be conducted under the joint inspection of the local higher Dan holder and the member of the test committee dispatched by the Kukkiwon to the country or the region concerned.

4) In principle, promotion tests should be considered one time a month, if considered necessary, however, the execution of tests may be adjustable.


5) For the safety of the applicant, the chief of the test commission shall take the following measures;
a. A doctor or a person qualified in first aid shall be present according to the scale of the test.
b. Relevant instruction for safety shall be made to the applicants and test commission
prior to the examination.

6) Kukkiwon and the organizing committee of Dan promotion test don't have any responsibility to the law in criminal or civil affairs in case of any applicant's injuries or death in the course of Dan promotion test. 






Article 8 : Time & Age Limits for Poom or Dan Promotion 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




1) Time and Age Limits 

*Poom/Dan **Minimum Time*
*Required for Promotion** Age Limits for Promotion *Start from DanStart from Poom 1st PoomN AN A Less than 15 Years Old; 1st to 2nd Pom1 yearN A Less than 15 Years Old;2nd to 3rd Poom 2 years N ALess than 15 Years Old; 3rd to 4th Poom 3 years N ALess than 18 Years Old;
1st DanN A 15 years and above N A;
1st to 2nd Dan1 year 16 years and above 15 years and above;
2nd to 3rd Dan2 years18 years and above15 years and above;
3rd to 4th Dan 3 years21 years and above18 years and above;
4th to 5th Dan 4 years 25 years and above;
5th to 6th Dan 5 years 30 years and above;
6th to 7th Dan 6 years 36 years and above;
7th to 8th Dan 8 years 44 years and above;
8th to 9th Dan 9 years 53 years and above;
9th to 10th DanN A 60 years and above 
* Remarks: 
(1) All applicants should have passed the minimum time and age required for promotion.
(2) One who started from Poom may have the privilege of test application with shortened time limits until 5th Dan promotion.

2) 1st,2nd,3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, is the same grade of Dan holder.
(4th Poom holder, being 18 years of age or above, is the same as 4th Dan holder)
*1st, 2nd, 3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, can have the Dan Certificates when they want to change their Poom certificates. (4th Poom holder, being 18 years of age or above, can change the 4th Dan certificate)

3) When 1st, 2nd, 3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, want to be promoted to the next higher Dan, he or she can be applied Dan promotion test. However, 3rd Poom holder who is 18 years of age and above can be applied 4th Dan and under 18 years of age can be applied 4th Poom. 


Article 10 : Subjects of Promotion Test 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




1) Test of Techniques
(1) Poomsae (Forms)
(2) Kyorugi (Sparring)
(3) Kyukpa (Breaking)
(4) Special technique

2) Test of theoretical study (over 4th Dan applicant)
(1) Written examination
(2) Thesis 

Article 11 : Specified Subjects of Practical Techniques Applied to the
Poom and Dan Promotion Test
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*Poom/Dan**Appointed**Compulsory*
1st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 7th Jang 1 appointedTaegeuk 8;
2nd Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang 1 appointed Koryo;
3rd Dan(Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang , Koryo 1 appointedKeumkang;
4th Dan(Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang , Koryo, Keumkang 1 appointedTaebaek;
5th Dan Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang , Koryo, Keumkang, Taebaek 1 appointedPyongwon;
6th Dan Taebaek, Pyongwon, Sipjin 1 appointedJitae;
7th Dan Pyongwon, Sipjin, Jitae 1 appointedCheonkwon;
8th Dan Sipjin, Jitae, Cheonkwon 1 appointedHansoo;
9th Dan Jitae, Cheonkwon, Hansoo 1 appointedIllyo;
10th Dan Decided by the Judgement of Technical Council
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(sorry, the grids from the Kukkiwon's website did not come thru so I had to edit-any errors are mine).

Miles


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## bignick (Nov 25, 2004)

Not much other to chime in here other than the fact that I don't like required tournaments.  I feel that competition is an aspect of taekwondo that can be explored individually and not required.


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## Adept (Nov 25, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Adept, are you Taekwondo or MMA? No offense, but I just was interested in strictly Taekwondo discipline standards. We always have forms.... TW


 TKD for eight years. Sorry, I forgot to mention the patterns. We also run through every pattern (from Chon Ji to Chung Mu) many, many times. I call myself MMA because I refuse to limit myself to a single style. I incorporate anything that works into my personal training regime, but I was responding as a TKD student.


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## Crash02 (Nov 26, 2004)

Miles said:
			
		

> Crash02, per your request are Kukkiwon's applicable Regulation for Promotion Tests (Articles 7, 8 (re: age/time in grade); 10 (Content of Test) & 11 (Poomsae required)):
> 
> Article 10 : Subjects of Promotion Test
> 
> ...


Thank you Miles for the info!  So if I take out all the age requirements and what not and everything from 2nd dan/poom on up.  Is what i'm seeing that requirements for 1st dan in Kukkiwons minimum is:

Forms, sparring, breaking, and special techniques(not sure what this entitles)

Am I correct in what I am reading.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 26, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> Not much other to chime in here other than the fact that I don't like required tournaments.  I feel that competition is an aspect of taekwondo that can be explored individually and not required.



I think this is done so that as a white-orange belt, they start entering tournaments. Its alot easier as a white belt (innocent) to compete with white belt form, key bong hyung for us-all long stances, than it is as a blue-red belt when something is really expected of you. Still, I see the white belts, timid or unsure of themselves, hang back and watch. Little do they know that they could have won. I saw a white belt win grand champion colored belts once.

Later as blue-red, its easy to say its too much pressure, and not want to put yourself through it.  Having to go, forces the student to face fears and overcome them and realize their capability. It gives great practice under pressure of course but I think it is part of the empowerment and gaining confidence in what you are doing. You as a student also get to see how you stack up against students in other organizations. 

We have to do three tournaments a year in order to get them all in, in four years. Actually, I did 4-5 tournaments a year. Also, you see other types of breaking and you get stimulated to try it.  I never tested on axe, ridgehand, head butt, jump front, elbow strike but did them in tournaments.  I also practiced and tried out my would be breaks for testing at tournaments (devil may care attitude) thinking if I could do it then, then testing for sure. I had done so many knife hands for tournaments, doing it for black belt test was really no big deal. Every tournament I would try to up the amount of boards or the technique.  It challenges you. From tournaments, I think, I got to really love breaking. TW


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## Mithios (Nov 26, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> This is cool to see!  Do you test on all 163 techniques during a test or do you just have different lists on some? Would take some time. Classical TKD, is that Chonji, ITF style?  or Palgwes? or ?  TW


 Yes, All 163 techniques are tested on the Black Belt test. All techniques are tested at every rank. So the basics won't fall by the way side. We do the Chang-Hun forms(chon-ji, dan-gun, do-san, etc.) black belt test's are long!! Mithios


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## Shu2jack (Nov 26, 2004)

Requirements to test for BB?

1.) 500 word essay on why you want to earn the rank.

2.) All forms and one-steps.

3.) Minimum of 3- two minute rounds of sparring, one of which must be against a higher rank.

4.) Basic movements for either the stick or nunchuck.

5.) Board breaking. 1 minute to set up all stations, and must break the board immediately (no longer than what it take to take one normal breath) once you come up to a breaking station.

Out of curosity, do you guys think testing people on flexiblity, strength, and endurance is important? I absolutly think that one should always strive to improve they attributes, but is posting a minimum standard the right way to go about it?

People out bench press me, but I can out push-up them. I can't do more than 45 regular sit-ups without back pain, but I can work the sit-up the machine very well. While I can kick head level, I don't think it is THAT important. In the last 7 tournaments I have attended I have placed in 5 of them for sparring. I probably only had about 4 or 5 scoring head kicks and at least 20 scoring body shots with mostly punches and a few kicks. You wouldn't kick to the head on the street for self-defense either. Most street fights or self-defense situations last under 30 seconds, so why does one need to be able to run for 30 minutes?

If you impose a 80 push-up minimum, what happens to the 60 year old women? What about the teenage boys who develop physically at different ranks? I didn't really start to really fill out physically until I was 19. Would it be fair to other students to constantly change the standards because of different abilities of different people? In an art that is supposed to be available for everyone and so everyone could do it, would it be wiser to have them test their physical abilities while at white belt and expect an improvement before they test for each rank instead?

I am not picking on anyone or any school/system. I am just trying to open up a discussion on testing requirments.



> Not that we are going to change Taekwondo universally. I just would like to know what everybody thinks _should_ be the standards.


So like I said, I am curious to what you guys think and aside from what we think the standards _should_ be, I think it would be nice to know _why_.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 26, 2004)

I think there should be a minimum fitness level, that's why the 30 min. run. It isn't all that difficult for someone who has lost excess weight, stopped smoking, and has no major medical problems.  I think you always have to take into consideration age, either young or old and medical problems like asthma which can't be controlled.  But weight and smoking can.  I see men who can't last 5 minutes of heavy sparring because of smoking.  Running develops breathing, cardiovascular health-open arteries, exercised heart and lungs and endurance. Unless you have regular heavy cardiovascular sessions 2-3 times a week, if not running, how fit can you be?

As far as flexibility, in our school it is a major component of Taekwondo. Its really hard to get past green belt because the break required is spin heel to head level.and not as a wheel kick, as a snap.  When the forms cannot be executed correctly, for example, a crescent to the knee instead of head level, how is that black belt going to show that teaching? Flexibility can also be worked on. Our forms require alot of flexibility. Plus we have to do slow motion kicks head level - front and spin heel being the hardest.

Actually, my master doesn't test on flexibility, cardiovascular.  But some guys just get winded during the sparring matches and drop their heads for oxygen.  We do get tested on regular pushups - 50 for black belts, less for colored belts at the end of test. Then on the other hand, women are usually better at flexibility, but have trouble with power breaks, knife hand-concrete, jumping needed for most of our breaks.  Most of the women 30 and over can't clear more than a few inches where guys have a least a foot or more vertical clearance.  All the women I know, have shoulder, hip and knee, ankle problems.  But to make it a test for woman to break a board but not make it a test for a man to do something just as difficult relatively says what?  A man can work on flexibility and cardiovascular just as much as a woman can work on jumping.  

Btw, Shu2jack, regular situps are bad for your back. You shouldn't do them. Why don't you do crunches?  

As we age, we all have problems and some like asthma and knees are just not going to get better.  But I think some standards should be made to address what we can get better at, otherwise they never are worked on.  The black belt test, is a goal to become motivated to become our best but it is also a standard of what a black belt should be. There still has to be considerations by the test-giver about limitations at the black belt test. But for everything that could be improved there is also each belt test getting up to that test.  So pushups could be in increments, running in increments.  I know for sure I would have never had passed my knife/concrete unless I had done alot of pushups, totalgym and alot of practice on that black board in the year prior.  It wasn't fun.  But from that my punches are a heck of alot more stronger.  What's that saying, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger?  TW


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 26, 2004)

Our minimum standards for 1st Dan testing:

1. Must perform Palgue Chil and Pal

2. Must free fight three consecutive opponents, showing controlled contact. You MUST be able to contact each person with at least one technique, show decent steps (footwork), and demonstrate proper technique.

3. Breaking. Each break must show good form and technique.

4. Submit a three page paper about your thoughts on Tae Kwon Do

Judging criteria:

1. Judges must all be 4th Dan and above
2. Judges will all wear professional business attire.
3. You cannot judge your own students.

Now having said that, it is next to impossible to say what minimum standards should be. Each organization has its own. I don't believe in minimum fitness standards. You either can perform what is required of you or you cannot. To penalize someone because they cannot do 100 pushups is absurd. I'm not sure I could, and I'm in decent shape. I think all you can really do is establish minimum testing criteria (time between testings, age of testers, rank of judges etc.) and leave the rest up to the Head Instructor. Even within our organization, testing requirements can vary between Instructors.


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## Adept (Nov 26, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> If you impose a 80 push-up minimum, what happens to the 60 year old women? What about the teenage boys who develop physically at different ranks?


 Being fit and strong is as important as having good technique. Why should a 60 year old woman be given a black belt if she cannot perform her patterns? Why give her a black belt if she cannot do the push ups? Why bend the standards for someone just because they have a harder time with it. The very reason we have standards is to cull the weaker people from the group. If they cannot make the grade, they have no purpose being a black belt.


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## Shu2jack (Nov 26, 2004)

> Being fit and strong is as important as having good technique. Why should a 60 year old woman be given a black belt if she cannot perform her patterns? Why give her a black belt if she cannot do the push ups? Why bend the standards for someone just because they have a harder time with it. The very reason we have standards is to cull the weaker people from the group. If they cannot make the grade, they have no purpose being a black belt.


While I have no issue with setting standards, I believe the standards should be set to reflect the goals of the institution. I have no problem with the idea of "culling" the weaker people from the group. If you are looking for canadates for special forces. If you are holding a competition and trying to take the top prize. If your goal is the create the top fighters in the world.




I have always thought of traditional TKD as an activitiy meant to improve a person- physically and mentally. I never found it to be about eliminating the weak, but making the "weaK" stronger and giving them tools they need to survive in both life and self-defense. I never said lower the standards because it would be harder for some people. I advocate realistic expectations for people. I can realistically expect the average 60 year old woman of sound mind to perform all of her forms. I can not expect the average 60 year old woman of sound body to give me 80 push ups.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 26, 2004)

If its physically possible, I believe people rise to the occasion.  When I joined TKD over 8 yrs. ago, nobody did full body pushups just split pushups and only 50 were asked.  Then one day as a blue belt, I was asked to do a full body pushup.  I thought, you got to be kidding.  I could get in the up position and it was difficult enough just to hold that.  He had mercy though, he put a chest gear underneath me if I crashed my face into the floor.  I couldn't do one.  I could get up to 100 split pushups, then 200, then 300. Then I started on full body. Last year, I did them in sets.  First ten good ones, rest 30 sec., then as many as I could do until muscle failure.  I continued on those doing sets, plus total gym-upper body pulldowns etc. until I built up to 50 push ups, then next set 40, 30, 20 10.  I worked my sets up to count finally close to 400 total pushups. (maybe not all good but they were a pushup)  My last round I did do 100 good ones prior to breaking.  I was age 53 then and now at 55 I can still do 50 easy and probably alot more but probably not up to 100 again unless I worked it again.  I'm no unusual woman either.  Just average.  I think if I can do it, anybody without neck, shoulder, back problems etc. absolutely can.  And I intend to do it at age 60 too. TW


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 26, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> While I have no issue with setting standards, I believe the standards should be set to reflect the goals of the institution. I have no problem with the idea of "culling" the weaker people from the group. If you are looking for canadates for special forces. If you are holding a competition and trying to take the top prize. If your goal is the create the top fighters in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very true. While eliminating the weak might apply to the Special Forces or the Korean National Team, it should not apply to your average Tae Kwon Do school. Even for Dan testing. Traditional TKD is about building you up, making you a stronger and better person, helping you realize your potential. But not because you MUST be physically fit. It certainly helps though.
You start implementing physical fitness standards that many people might not reach for the sake of producing strong students, and you will probably lose a lot of students. If a student wants to attain certain goals on their own that's fine. But no Instructor has the right to say "if you want 1st Dan, you must be able to do 100 pushups, 1000 crunches, 500 side kicks etc." That's got nothing to do with being a 1st Dan. It's something you can work on in the pursuit of 1st or 2nd Dan, not a requirement itself.


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## Adept (Nov 27, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> While I have no issue with setting standards, I believe the standards should be set to reflect the goals of the institution. I have no problem with the idea of "culling" the weaker people from the group. If you are looking for canadates for special forces. If you are holding a competition and trying to take the top prize. If your goal is the create the top fighters in the world.


 
 Well, as you rightly point out, it depends on your goal. The goal of our school is to produce the best students possible. To be a black belt means you are not only technically competent, but that you also have very good stamina, that you are strong and fast, and flexible. People who are incapable of fitting the model of a black belt should not have a black belt. If a person with an artificial leg attempted to become a black belt, I see no reason for him to get special dispensation.
 


> I have always thought of traditional TKD as an activitiy meant to improve a person- physically and mentally. I never found it to be about eliminating the weak, but making the "weaK" stronger and giving them tools they need to survive in both life and self-defense.


 
 I personally agree with this. I would prefer there be no ranking system at all. But we do have a ranking system, and each person is pushed to progress through it as far as they can. No one is asked to grade unless the instructors are satisfied they meet the cut. To fail a BB grading requires a serious mess up. Not everyone has the skill, determination or physique to be a black belt. It's just the way it is.



> I advocate realistic expectations for people.


 A agree. It is realistic to expect some people to become black belts, and for others it is not.


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## TigerWoman (Nov 27, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> But no Instructor has the right to say "if you want 1st Dan, you must be able to do 100 pushups, 1000 crunches, 500 side kicks etc." That's got nothing to do with being a 1st Dan. It's something you can work on in the pursuit of 1st or 2nd Dan, not a requirement itself.



How about more realistic goals of just 50 pushups too?  If you can't do 50 pushups, how good will your punch or knife be? Guys have to speed punch a board for 1st dan in our school. 500 crunches?--but not for a test. We do 200 normally every class plus other lower ab stuff.  If you had too many physical tests as well as all the forms, sparring etc etc., performance diminishes as the test goes on. The "edge" is taken off by 200 per leg rising kicks and the start of our bb tests.  But I did the pushups at the end of the test pretty much when I thought I was wasted. Now, all those requirements I listed with the exception of flexibility, running, have to be met to get to recommended bb. Only one guy I know of, didn't eventually do his jump spin heel break and walked away. TW


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## Shu2jack (Nov 27, 2004)

> Well, as you rightly point out, it depends on your goal. The goal of our school is to produce the best students possible. To be a black belt means you are not only technically competent, but that you also have very good stamina, that you are strong and fast, and flexible. People who are incapable of fitting the model of a black belt should not have a black belt. If a person with an artificial leg attempted to become a black belt, I see no reason for him to get special dispensation.


I agree with you. It does depend on the goals of our schools and people who are incapable of fitting the model of a black belt should not have a black belt. It appears our disagreement comes from what we consider "makes" a black belt.

I agree that you must be technically competent, but why do you have to be so strong, fast, and flexible to such a degree that only a select group of people can reach? I am not saying that the guy with the artifical leg should get special treatment. I am saying that if guy knows his stuff, has the "right" attitude, and can take care of himself in a "situation", why can he not earn his black belt? Because he can't do a proper jump kick? Because he can't do X amount of squats?




> I personally agree with this. I would prefer there be no ranking system at all. But we do have a ranking system, and each person is pushed to progress through it as far as they can. No one is asked to grade unless the instructors are satisfied they meet the cut. To fail a BB grading requires a serious mess up. Not everyone has the skill, determination or physique to be a black belt. It's just the way it is.





> A agree. It is realistic to expect some people to become black belts, and for others it is not.


I agree, but again, that goes back to "What is a black belt?" I do not mean any disrespect, but it seems that your focus is too much on certain physical attributes and if people can reach this imaginary bar of requirements instead of if this person knows what he is talking about and knows how to use what he has effectively.


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## Adept (Nov 27, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> It appears our disagreement comes from what we consider "makes" a black belt.


 This would appear to be the crux of the issue.



> I agree that you must be technically competent, but why do you have to be so strong, fast, and flexible to such a degree that only a select group of people can reach?


 The goals we set arent so unrealistic. Most people can achieve them.



> I am not saying that the guy with the artifical leg should get special treatment. I am saying that if guy knows his stuff, has the "right" attitude, and can take care of himself in a "situation", why can he not earn his black belt? Because he can't do a proper jump kick? Because he can't do X amount of squats?


  Well there is no reason he cant get a black belt, so long as he can hold his own in all regards with the other black belts.



> I agree, but again, that goes back to "What is a black belt?" I do not mean any disrespect, but it seems that your focus is too much on certain physical attributes and if people can reach this imaginary bar of requirements instead of if this person knows what he is talking about and knows how to use what he has effectively.


 Not at all. As I've stated before, no one is asked to grade unless they have already proven they know their stuff. The test itself is more of a formality. You would have to really stuff it up not to pass.

 Black belts should be at the top of the grading system, with the Dans above that. Black belts should be very competent fighters, very fit and very strong. I dont see a reason why they shouldnt be. Most people are capable of making the grade if they train smart and hard. If a person knows their stuff, and knows how to use it effectively, then good for them. If they arent physically tough enough to put in the hard yards, then too bad. Black belts should be a goal for people to reach. People should look at them and think "Woah, the only way for me to get that is to work _really_ hard." Not to think, "I can get one of those, all I have to do is remember the patterns*"

 * - By this I mean technically competent. Being a black belt is more than simply knowing your stuff, its about being very competent in all aspects of fighting.


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## Mithios (Nov 27, 2004)

Tecniques and stamina should be required on a testing, but a line has to be drawn somewere. I have seen people fail because they were not in the best of shape, stamina wise, even though there techniques and other requirement's were right on the money. And i have also seen them fail for the reverse. I think that age, physical limitation's etc. should be taken into account. An 18 year old, is probably going to have more stamina, be more limber etc, than a 60 year old that started later in life. Of course there are exeption's. But you all get what i am saying.     Mithios


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## Athena (Nov 27, 2004)

there is no "physical component" at our tests, as far as i know. if you don't have the stamina to run three miles, you don't have the stamina to finish the black belt test, and vice versa. i think our philosophy is that there's no point proving that twice. 

i don't think flexibility should be a deciding factor as far as whether or not you pass a test. i can kick at head level, but that doesn't mean i'm going to win a fight againt someone who's stronger or faster. i personally think you need _some _ of these physical attributes, but not all of them. speed can make up for strength, etc. there's no set rule about this at my school; instructors look at whether you can fight or not instead of obsessing over how you get the job done.  

example: a very skinny girl may never be able to do 100 pushup, no matter how hard she works, but she could have all the speed in the world. speed can overcome a lack of strength when throwing punches if you have room. (although i'm assuming that in a testing sparring situation you always have room to throw punches and are not cornered against a wall, which could be wrong. does any of you ever have to do that?) 

my school also has a self-defense component that goes into the tests. chokes as a white belt, hair pulls as a yellow, bear hugs at orange, then on to stick, knife, gun, etc. i think the main point of these is to show that TKD is not all-inclusive and to encourage exploration of different arts to round out martial arts training. they're extremely basic and would only work against someone who didn't have skills in knife arts. instructors stress that no, you are not ready for a knife fight just because you've learned three disarms.

final thought... if black belts are only for an elite set of people, what do you do when someone who has earned a black belt is no longer strong enough or skilled enough to "maintain" it?  if i get my black belt at age 18 and keep training until i'm 75 and no longer able to jump high and run fast, are you going to take it away from me because i don't fit into your ideal breed of martial artists?


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## dosandojang (Nov 27, 2004)

I use Kuk Ki Won too, but add in a little of my own  reqs.


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## Dr. Kenpo (Nov 27, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> Not much other to chime in here other than the fact that I don't like required tournaments. I feel that competition is an aspect of taekwondo that can be explored individually and not required.


Same here, because many require you to also work at them to earn rank, and I don't agree with that. Why should I work for free, and the promoter gets all the profit?:asian:


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## TigerWoman (Nov 27, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> I use Kuk Ki Won too, but add in a little of my own  reqs.



Would you care to elaborate on your own requirements?  Even the Kuk Ki Won requirements are generalized and are open to interpretation by the master giving the tests. Or are more specific requirements for sparring, etc. given out by Kukkiwon?  


Also regarding the duality of running and doing sparring.  The running could be a pretest determiner of whether the student is ready physically to test. I know of some people who refuse to really lose weight, work on cardio. or strength.  Also their tests show them sluggish and getting winded easily. They probably go 2-3 times a week and expect to test anyway regardless of how well they prepared and trained. 

As an aging black belt myself, I can only expect diminishing returns for my efforts at training especially as my knees are getting worse. But as a teacher, I think a certain level has to be maintained. I can't very well teach a jump spin heel if I can't show how to do one.  But in the future, I would still like to be able to keep my belt and exercise in classes when I couldn't do jump kicks anymore and teach them. TW


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## dosandojang (Nov 28, 2004)

I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won Rules and Regs for my TKD ONLY Ranking, but since I teach a blend of:


TKD/TSD
HKD and Judo, I add more things in my Syllabus. I will post some basic guidelines when I have more time! Peace...

http://www.geocities.com/dosanmartialartsschool/ 
http://home.rconnect.com/~simmudo/members.html 
http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif


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## Miles (Nov 28, 2004)

Crash02 said:
			
		

> Thank you Miles for the info! So if I take out all the age requirements and what not and everything from 2nd dan/poom on up. Is what i'm seeing that requirements for 1st dan in Kukkiwons minimum is:
> 
> Forms, sparring, breaking, and special techniques(not sure what this entitles)
> 
> Am I correct in what I am reading.


Yes.  As far as "special technique" is concerned, I am not sure what that entails either.  I will check with my GM.

Miles


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## TigerWoman (Nov 28, 2004)

From what I understand for Kukkiwon, all breaks are left up to the master giving the test.  So that is a variable for testing. 

Is there also a variable on sparring?  I've seen 2 min. rounds, 5 min rounds., 3 - 5 rounds. ???  Colored belt sparring opponents to our school's test which is all black belt opponents.

And then the forms also appear variable - Chung Do Kwan - only two Palgwe forms  to Taeguek 7-8 forms.  Our school does ten including Key Bong Hyung and Koryo.  TW


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## terryl965 (Nov 29, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won Rules and Regs for my TKD ONLY Ranking, but since I teach a blend of:
> 
> 
> TKD/TSD
> ...


 I'm confuse earlier you said WTF standerds. well WTF does not incorporate others styles with there's so TSD HKD and Judo would never be part of a test if you are WTF. You dogged Dr. Beasley Org for being not WTF. I do not know him so I cannot comment about him, just confused. Please explain in detail so I can have a better understanding of your testing requirements. OK my mistake KukKiwon look forward to your reply.
Terry Lee Stoker


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## dosandojang (Nov 29, 2004)

Uh, NO. I teach a blend of all four, but when Grading for Rank in WTF Style Tae Kwon Do, I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won (and WTF and USTU) rules, regs, etc. + what my Grand Master (Young Ik Han 9th Dan Kuk Ki Won) already has in place for Tae Kwon Do ONLY testing. Am I making myself clear yet? Also, I have NEVER dogged Dr. B. That was NOT my intention! Ask him, as I have spoken with him in e-mail! Peace...


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## dosandojang (Nov 29, 2004)

Terry, get what I am saying now???? Even though I teach a Blend on a daily basis...When Testing time comes around for Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I follow ONLY the Tae Kwon Do format for Tae Kwon Do ONLY Ranking! So on that day when I test my students for Ranking in Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I make sure ALL rules, regs, standards, etc., are followed to a T! So NONE of my HKD, Judo, TSD Syllabus will be asked of for or during the Kuk Ki Won Testing Day! ONLY that which is required by the Kuk Ki Won (+ my Grand Master's syllabus. He is Ku Dan with the Kuk Ki Won, and has been running our Dojangs since the 70's! So he is a VERY SENIOR person in South Korea with the WTF, Kuk Ki Won, and USTU in the USA!), NOTHING ELSE! I then do the same thing with the other styles I teach, as I am Certified to teach and promote in them also!


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## terryl965 (Nov 29, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> Terry, get what I am saying now???? Even though I teach a Blend on a daily basis...When Testing time comes around for Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I follow ONLY the Tae Kwon Do format for Tae Kwon Do ONLY Ranking! So on that day when I test my students for Ranking in Tae Kwon Do ONLY, I make sure ALL rules, regs, standards, etc., are followed to a T! So NONE of my HKD, Judo, TSD Syllabus will be asked of for or during the Kuk Ki Won Testing Day! ONLY that which is required by the Kuk Ki Won (+ my Grand Master's syllabus. He is Ku Dan with the Kuk Ki Won, and has been running our Dojangs since the 70's! So he is a VERY SENIOR person in South Korea with the WTF, Kuk Ki Won, and USTU in the USA!), NOTHING ELSE! I then do the same thing with the other styles I teach, as I am Certified to teach and promote in them also!


Why Thank you for explaining I do appreciate it also was not trying to offend anybody. I was under the impression you were more MMA and you combined them all, that's all. No Ill will towards anybody have a wonderful Holiday Season.
Terry Lee Stoker


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## dosandojang (Nov 29, 2004)

Thanks Terry!  Happy Holidays to you too!


Tae Kwon!
Pil Sung!


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## Miles (Nov 30, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> I follow ALL Kuk Ki Won Rules and Regs for my TKD ONLY Ranking, but since I teach a blend of:
> 
> 
> TKD/TSD
> ...


Do you teach these other arts separately as well as blending some techniques into Taekwondo?

Miles


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## dosandojang (Nov 30, 2004)

Yes. This is how I do it. If someone comes into my Dojang and wants to learn say ONLY ONE ART, I will teach them that with Privates, but at the regular rate. But MOST do NOT have a problem with learning a nice blend, and hence wind up learning all at the same time. I make sure that each know and decide on what they want to test for, meaning specific Rank in Specific Art, and I make sure they get what they want. So say on Kuk Ki Won test day, those that want to test for Kuk Ki Won rank, are allowed to do so--and then so on and so forth with the other 03 Arts. I do NOT teach my own Style though (Steve Kwon Do, etc.), and therefore do NOT issue ANY Rank that is NOT from one of the 04 Orgs/Styles that I teach through! I pretty much teach my like my Judo Sensei Gokor C., he teaches, Karate, Sambo, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, etc., but promotes people in individual Arts that he is Authorized to promote in---but with only one difference, he does actually teach his OWN System (Hayastan), and in that you can get Grading and Ranking as well. Gokor is an 8th Dan Judo Master, and is so OVERLY qualified, that NO one can knock him for teaching his OWN Style.


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## Faye (Dec 5, 2004)

Tigerwoman- I totally admire you of doing your pushups.  I honestly cannot do full push ups.  When I do them, I don't bend my hands all the way (chest not nearly to the floor), and I always get yelled at.  I'll start using your method and work my way there!! Maybe then, I won't fly back as much when doing bag drills!


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## TigerWoman (Dec 5, 2004)

Faye said:
			
		

> Tigerwoman- I totally admire you of doing your pushups.  I honestly cannot do full push ups.  When I do them, I don't bend my hands all the way (chest not nearly to the floor), and I always get yelled at.  I'll start using your method and work my way there!! Maybe then, I won't fly back as much when doing bag drills!



Holding the bag is still mass against mass mostly. I had to do the regular pushups in order to palm and knife hand concrete.  Before that was 3 boards for rec. black test.  But slow and steady wins, just keep increasing those on the knee girl pushups or split pushups in sets and you will build your upper body.  It was really nice when someone told me I punched too hard. I was shocked--I do??  Really funny when you consider how I started out--not able to do 15 split pushups very well. So, you go girl!!  TW


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## Faye (Dec 5, 2004)

Sorry Tigerwoman for this stupid question, what is the difference between knee pushups and split pushups?


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## TigerWoman (Dec 5, 2004)

No question is EVER stupid.   Split your legs first like a horseback stance but straight legged (most of us at first can't split very far) then go down on your arms in the front like a pushup.  It exercises your inner thighs as well to hold your body up but after awhile when legs get too strong, one has the tendency to not lean forward as much and let the upper body work with the weight.  

Knee pushups are when you get down on your knees and do pushups with your arms from that position, basically knees (and maybe toes) touch and hands.  More straight like the regular pushup. I had a hard time transitioning from this position to regular.  So I just did tons (2-300) of split pushups to do five of the regular full body pushup. Then I started doing the regular ones in sets.  5 rest 4 rest 3 rest, etc.  Then the more you do the lower you go to the floor too. So that is how I built up to 400 total in sets.
Hope that is clear, if not PM me since this is getting off track in the thread.
TW


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