# Value of life



## someguy (May 23, 2004)

How much should life be valued?  When should we be willing to end a life?  I have been pondering these questions some lately.  So I wondered what others think.
I would not be suprised if this topic has been done before.  If there is then I'm sur ethis will go in a differnt manner than the other one as shown by my making the thread about evolution then realizing that there was one not to long after.  This should be an intresting debate.  
This ties in with martial arts simply in that in a fight there may be little choice between ending a life or dieing.
Let the debate begin.


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## MA-Caver (May 23, 2004)

*All life is valuable*. Even the ones who are by definition "evil" and take lives indiscriminately, i.e. Terrorist, Serial Killers, Mercinaries, etc. because of the possibilites; possibility that they may change and start doing good and preserving life instead of taking it. Possible but often times ... unlikely. The point of taking a life (intentionally) is knowing that if _that_ particular life isn't ended other lives will be at risk. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one" as Spock & Kirk said in a couple of Star Trek movies. Sci-fi stories but sometimes ... logical words/philosophy. 
My following of the "Oath Of Peace" helps me personally to determine when it's necessary to take a life should that need arise. Fortunately to date that need hasn't arisen and I pray to the God of my (personal) beliefs that it never will. But if it does come up, I also pray that it will be for the good of the many, even if it is just my life in danger at that particular moment. 
Your own personal beliefs about the value of life will help make the determination of ending this life or sparing that life. I will fight to the death to preserve my own or another's life... if need be. If the one who's life must be ended so that others may live then so be it. I will allow God to judge them, because it is not my true place to do so. 
There is a scriptural reference that states (paraphrased): better that one man perish than a whole nation. Such as the case with Hitler or Khan (the real one) or that of Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahlmer, Timothy McViegh and others who take lives to satisfy a personal agenda. 
You speak of evolution and I personally feel that evolution has nothing to do with the personal choices that we make. Taking a life (intentionally) is a personal choice no matter how you cut it. You make the decision. This has nothing to do with evolution. 
Man decides to go to war against his fellow man. Man knows that in order to win the war that he wages he must kill. We are the only animals on this planet that kill for reasons other than food and protection/self preservation. At the same time we are the only animals who can reason our way out of taking a life. A shark or other predator that turns away from a human being at the last moment didn't reason their way out of it. They realize, from instinct, that what they were about to attack wasn't normal prey, or is no longer a threat to them or their offspring. 
When we hold a (loaded) gun to someone we still make the final choice to pull the trigger and even then we make the choice to aim at a vital or to make a wound which may or may not be debilitating or even to (attempt to) scare them away without hitting them.
We study MA to learn how to prevent loss of life and to reduce or eliminate harm to ourselves or others... among the other countless reasons that we study a Martial Art.  Some of the techniques (whatever style) can be deadly. I believe that most or all systems have alternative techinques/forms/moves/countermoves that will not be life threatening. 
It's all a matter of choice and our choices are influenced by our own personal values towards life. They are many and varied from individual to individual. 

Sorry for being so long winded.  :asian:


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## michaeledward (May 23, 2004)

A recent study showed that most people would give up '7 Months' of life, in order to have a 'good death'. Does that count?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/05/20/good.death.reut/index.html


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## MA-Caver (May 23, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> A recent study showed that most people would give up '7 Months' of life, in order to have a 'good death'. Does that count?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/05/20/good.death.reut/index.html



Yeah well problem is that you cannot give up any even a portion of  life to have a good death. 
People (to me anyway) seem to not realize that death is just a doorway. 

"There are things known and things unknown... inbetween are the doors" ~ Jim Morrison


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 23, 2004)

Just for the sake of stirring the pot...

All life is valuable...says who? How do we really know? What if we are wrong, and it's all just an accident? In that case, the human infection on the earth would benefit from some form of self-regulation in order to limit the effects of over-infestation.  Examples would include war, murder, plague, famine...these are now ecological saviors (some induced by nature, some by man), rather than catastrophes for humanity.

I'm not really a-nihilist (see what I did there? Little play on words?)...just wondering how the learned minds on the board might address such a proposition.

Regards,

Dave


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## someguy (May 23, 2004)

So all life includes only humans or animals as well.  Does it go as far as plants?  So at what point should things be considered lesser beings whos life is less valuable.


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## RubyMoon (May 23, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Yeah well problem is that you cannot give up any even a portion of life to have a good death.
> People (to me anyway) seem to not realize that death is just a doorway.


I believe it is true that death is simply a life transition, very similar to birth in many respects.  It is still a very difficult thing, however.  Just as birth is painful and frightening, so is death.  An easy death is a blessed thing.


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## RubyMoon (May 23, 2004)

I believe all life has value, from the greatest whale to the tiniest microbe.  The earth, itself, is alive, and everything upon it is a part of a living whole.  Whenever we kill a thing, we kill part of ourselves.  Sometimes our own survival dictates that we must kill.  Life eats life.  It is inescapable, even for those who choose not to eat animals (like myself).  We still must kill something to continue to exist.  

What makes a complex life form more valuable than a less complex one?  Is a mouse less valuable than the owl who eats it?  Is the rabbit less valuable than the fox?  Who is qualified to make such judgements?

I believe the best we can do is to live our lives as well as we can, while trying hard to do as little harm as possible.  When killing is necessary, it should be done as compassionately as possible.  Needless suffering should be ended.


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## Cryozombie (May 23, 2004)

I pondered this exact same thing, when the hospital asked me to sign a DNR on my mother last year...

There are no easy answers, but I really came up with this: 

Under 2 circumstances...

1) When there is no other option.
2) To end needless suffering.

Death is an End not a tool.


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## Cryozombie (May 23, 2004)

Oh... i need to expand on that...

When I say "end" I mean "end of a cycle" not an "End".

Am I making sense?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 23, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Oh... i need to expand on that...
> 
> When I say "end" I mean "end of a cycle" not an "End".
> 
> Am I making sense?


Yep.


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## MA-Caver (May 23, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> So all life includes only humans or animals as well.  Does it go as far as plants?  So at what point should things be considered lesser beings whos life is less valuable.



Well when I say that *All life is valuable* I mean ALL life. Animals, Plants, Insects, Birds, Fish and whatever else that is alive. All things carry a purpose... whatever they may be. 
RubyMoon said it better than I can... 





> I believe all life has value, from the greatest whale to the tiniest microbe. The earth, itself, is alive, and everything upon it is a part of a living whole. Whenever we kill a thing, we kill part of ourselves. Sometimes our own survival dictates that we must kill. Life eats life. It is inescapable, even for those who choose not to eat animals (like myself). We still must kill something to continue to exist.
> 
> What makes a complex life form more valuable than a less complex one? Is a mouse less valuable than the owl who eats it? Is the rabbit less valuable than the fox? Who is qualified to make such judgements?



No one but ourselves for ourselves, Ruby. 



> *Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said*: All life is valuable...says who? How do we really know? What if we are wrong, and it's all just an accident? In that case, the human infection on the earth would benefit from some form of self-regulation in order to limit the effects of over-infestation. Examples would include war, murder, plague, famine...these are now ecological saviors (some induced by nature, some by man), rather than catastrophes for humanity.



Well wars and plauges and famine are _some_ of the ways that the (human) population of the earth is "trimmed". Like you say some are the cause of men and others the cause of nature. It is how we approach/view/react to them that separates us from lower orders of life and the uncivilized. 



> *Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said*:...just wondering how the learned minds on the board might address such a proposition.



Well, I'm wondering Dave if my opinions differ from yours does it mean I have less of a learned mind? I realize that I expressed some "religious" beliefs but (for me) they're undeniable and my personal life's experiences have shown me the truth behind my beliefs. 
The human presence on this planet is not an infection (or as V'ger said "...an infestation of carbon based units..."). We are part of the natural world and we have our place here right along side the lowly amoeba and blue whale. We're the only ones (that we "know-of") that can express ourselves and our reasons for being on this planet. Mebbe it's just we've forgotten how to listen to the life that is all around us.


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## someguy (May 23, 2004)

Id on't think I have expressed my opinion as of yet towards this topic.  I am a vegitarian as I belive the needless ending of lives is something I would prefer to avoid.  I realize that plants are alive but there living is somewhat differnt than an animal.  I would rather kill a plant than a cat and a cat before a human.  But once something becomes sentient and I can show it feels pain then I refuse to end a life with out a really good reason.  People have made fun of my because I'm a 6 foot  180 lbs guy who doesn't usually kill a spider.  So I guess I'm kind of crazy but that is the way it goes with me.  It kind of is hard to explain fully but I have tryed.


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## RubyMoon (May 23, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> People have made fun of my because I'm a 6 foot 180 lbs guy who doesn't usually kill a spider. So I guess I'm kind of crazy but that is the way it goes with me. It kind of is hard to explain fully but I have tryed.


I don't think you're crazy.  I think you are refreshingly sane.  It takes far more courage to live and let live than to kill indiscriminately.


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## RubyMoon (May 23, 2004)

An illustration: 

Most people kill spiders not because spiders are so dangerous, but because they don't understand them and are afraid of them.  That spider doesn't want to bite you.  It only wants to eat, and it can't eat you.  It has no reason to bite what it cannot eat except in self-defense.  That spider WILL, however, eat all kinds of other little creatures that DO want to bite you (fleas, ticks, mosquitos).  It will also eat things that would like to invade your food supply like ants, roaches, and so forth.  When you understand these things, suddenly the spider becomes your friend and ally, and much harder to justify killing.  If you know that the spider in question has a bite dangerous to humans, this may change things somewhat...but again, most spider bites happen when we invade THEIR space, not the other way around.  Often, bites from other creatures--especially fleas--are mistakenly attributed to spiders.  

If this information about spiders is new to you, does it alter your view of killing spiders?  Will you kill the next spider you find in the house, or will your behavior change?  What if every creature on the face of the planet had a similar story, a story that could suddenly change your perspective and give you reason to think carefully before taking their lives?  

Guess what?  They do.


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## Ninway J (May 24, 2004)

How much should life be valued?  If you're talking purely physical, then that would remind me of this interesting number that someone or some people calculated of how much is a human body worth.  I can't recall the exact study or number, but I think they figured out that the entire human body would be worth around $21 million.  Maybe someone else knows more of this than I do.

However, a persons body, mind, and spirit as a whole, on the other hand, you can't put an exact number on that.  It's all relative.  Humans, and then cats, then spiders...etc.  But then again, who does make the definite decision on who or what has more or less value than someone or something else?  It is purely up to the individual.

A persons religious or spiritual beliefs affect how a person would place value on life.  For example, a Buddhist would place value on life differently from (certain) Christians.  Christians would place value on life differently from Hindus.  Buddhism says not to kill any living thing, and that it would be better to accept death rather than to fight it, or defend yourself.  Christianity (some) says "kill and eat" and that it is good to defend yourself if you are attacked.

Does the President of the United States have a more valuable life than, say, the President of Japan?  Does Donald Trump have a more valuable life than a beggar on the street?  Does a genius have a more valuable life than someone who is mentally challenged?  Does a lazy couch potato have a more valuable life than Adolf Hitler?  Why or why not?  I'd be willing to say that not everyone's answers will be the same.


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## Cryozombie (May 24, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> Does the President of the United States have a more valuable life than, say, the President of Japan?  Does Donald Trump have a more valuable life than a beggar on the street?  Does a genius have a more valuable life than someone who is mentally challenged?  Does a lazy couch potato have a more valuable life than Adolf Hitler?  Why or why not?  I'd be willing to say that not everyone's answers will be the same.



Ah, and there is the issue right?  

I would say "My Life is More Valuable" because it is mine.

Yet...

I can think of a number of people I would sacrifice my life for...

So theirs are more valuable than mine.  And if that is the case, then why not someone else's? And if someone elses life... why not everyone elses life?  And if everyone elses life is more valuable, than my life has no value.


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## someguy (May 24, 2004)

My life is valuable at the same time there are things more valuable than it.  I think Tgace had a quote that shows my point very well.

"I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger."--Meng tzu

In this case it is more accurate to say I like life but I dislike somethings more than I like my life.  So life has a value even if somethings are more so.  Mine is worth alot to me but justice plus some one elses wellfare is worth more.


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## Cryozombie (May 24, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> My life is valuable at the same time there are things more valuable than it.  I think Tgace had a quote that shows my point very well.
> 
> "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger."--Meng tzu
> 
> In this case it is more accurate to say I like life but I dislike somethings more than I like my life.  So life has a value even if somethings are more so.  Mine is worth alot to me bt jstive plus some one elses wellfare is worth more.



Ah yes, my statement shouldnt read "no vlaue" but "No More Value"


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## MA-Caver (May 25, 2004)

Yesterday, a friend of mine and I were chatting. He remarked about how well I seem to "get along with everybody." I told him using the word "everybody" would be exaggerating things, but I got the gist of what he meant. I explained to him that because I see _everyone_ as my equal. Even if the person is a millionare or a beggar on the street, or the waiter that was serving us or the manager of the resturant we were eating in. The people sitting around us enjoying their food or the homeless ones starving and eating out of garbage cans _as human beings every one is my equal... period. _ 
Now, one person may be better at some things than I am... just as I am better at somethings than the next person. We've taken the time and effort to be good at that particular thing. Making money, cooking italian food, a particular martial art, caving, scuba-diving... *whatever*! But just because I am better at caving than someone who's never done it does not by _any measure _ make me better than them *as a human being*. Just as my not being a black belt (in any art) _doesn't make me any worse as a human being_ than Ed Parker or Bruce Lee (though those guys are dead now).
My own personal values does not make me better (or worse) than anyone. I just choose to believe in certian things differently than anyone else. Occasionally yes, I will find someone who's values/views/ideas/opinions...whatever! that will be like mine... same for the opposite end of the stick. They are still my equals... and thus... they are just as valuable as I am... as human beings. 
As for a tree, dog, cockroach, blue jay or that wonderful rainbow trout I ate a few weeks ago... their lives are valuable because they serve a purpose ...whatever it may be.


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## Cryozombie (May 25, 2004)

MACAVER...

I wholeheartedly agree... I try very hard to see the same value in everyone as well... Just because person A has more money, or person B has more responsibility, and I have more, hmmm... IQ, say, than person D, that does not make any of us less valuable.

There are people I know who I genuinly dislilke, and I would still go out of my way to help them if they were really in need...

Wouldnt the world be great if everyone felt that way?


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## MA-Caver (May 25, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> MACAVER...
> I wholeheartedly agree... I try very hard to see the same value in everyone as well... Just because person A has more money, or person B has more responsibility, and I have more, hmmm... IQ, say, than person D, that does not make any of us less valuable.
> There are people I know who I genuinly dislilke, and I would still go out of my way to help them if they were really in need...
> Wouldnt the world be great if everyone felt that way?



Yes Techno it would, but unfortunately it's not like that way. Human nature (*ahem*  ) and other "influences" seek for the "self" and when that happens we become offended, disrespectful, uncaring, spiteful, hate and all other things which cause human misery. We do it to ourselves and to others. 
It's taken me a very long time to realize this because I used to be one real mean, predjudiced, bitter, grudge-carrying S.O.B. and then I realize that all I was doing was hurting myself when I try to hurt others. 
Now I follow 


> Michael "...the words of John and Paul"
> Robert Pastorelli: "the apostles?"
> Michael: "No, the Beatles!.... _all  you need is love_."


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## OULobo (May 26, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> How much should life be valued?  If you're talking purely physical, then that would remind me of this interesting number that someone or some people calculated of how much is a human body worth.  I can't recall the exact study or number, but I think they figured out that the entire human body would be worth around $21 million.  Maybe someone else knows more of this than I do.



Although it may sound blunt, cold, sterile and abrasive, people can be seen as valuble on many levels; such as material to be sold (organs, blood), labor force (ability to perform a valued service), as breedstock (ability to produce more people of value), for beauty (the body, mind or words as art for art's sake) and finally as a general investment or potential asset to all humanity (ability to perform acts of great importance in the future). As is the trouble of assigning value to anything, it's only worth what someone will pay for it with respect to time.

There are two interesting little annecdotes that relate well to this. 

The first is that if you disected a healthy human body and sold off the parts in decreasing complexity (organs, then tissues, then left-over fulids, then ground bones) at mean black market or open market values the human body has a distinct material value, as organs fetch a high price and even bone meal can be sold. That value is close to the $21million that Ninway mentioned.

The second is that most major corporations have an equation that calculates the value of a single human life with respect to the most important thing to them, profit. The equation is designed to help decide whether to fix known problems with a product. In extreme cases this equation is used to find how much money it would cost to recall an item, verses how many people have the item, would likely get hurt or killed, would likely sue, what the average settlement or verdict payment would be and how much profit would be lost from decreased sales and bad press. Easy, see which side will cost you less and you have your decision made for you. 

On the philisophical side, I have a distaste for killing any living animal (I even take spiders outside to save them from being squashed by my fiance or, if at my parents, my Mom) and some plants, but I think sometimes "a man's (or woman's) got to do what they got to do", usually for reasons of greater importance (which is a personal judgment call), like survival. Most of you have probly seen or read "Ole Yeller" or one of the thousand other movies or books that require the main character to make a hard decision about life and death. 

As for the whole killing plants thing, while I try keep them alive especially for their beauty or edible produce, they are really only alive in a scientific context which we use by default. We kill things that are classified as "alive" everyday with medications, disinfectants, hell, just washing our hands in hot water. 

I think the concept of life is sacred, not each individual life, and value (either material or ethical) is determined on an individual case.


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## c2kenpo (May 26, 2004)

Wow, Missed a good thread here.

Value of Life, 

This is a topic on too many levels requires an extremely lon pontification that right now I just dont have the time for but a quick 2 penies.

All life is valuble is some form in some way to someone or something. The Earth, Solar Systems, Universe, Cosmos are all incongruently co-dependent on one another, be this be grand design or an accident unknown.

There can be no determination of value of life it simply is and was put as such, the animal kingdom (exculding the human race) is simple the laws of nature and our understanding of science all come down to a harmony that is logical and chaotic all at once.

It is the view or perception that determins VALUE in something. 
My look on life is valuble, I will and have risked my own numerous times to save another (human or pet) from fires or drowning and will do so again without question or regard to my own safety. However I killed a spider that was crawling on my desk just simply because I did not like it nor did I want it there.Did I think that the spider was not VALUBLE therfore I could kill it?
No the spider is immensly valuble in nature and keeping a balance of things. 

However I made a CHOICE, to destroy a life. But no real difference then if an animal decided to try to eat the spider and killed it but did not consume it becasue it didn't like the taste. I do not systematicly kill spiders outside of my home nor do I go hunting for them to kill them off. I placed the killing as one of nature and territory. Animals defend thier terriory and space just as fiercely as we humans do our young.

However.. the difference between humans and anyother speices on this earth that is an agressive speices is that even tho animals may fight over territories, food, or mates you do not see them systematicly killing each other in massive quantaties nor do they kill because of looks, or beliefs or values.

We do.
Hitler, Hussien, Ceaser, Kahn, and many others.....
Part of the human genome.

So to quickly answer two points brought up here.

1. Life is valuble ALL OF IT. I need the plants to breathe they need me to die and decompose as to nourish them. Circle of Life. Simple.

2. Is some life NOT valuble? YES! Hitler, Hussien, Manson, Khan, Robert Lee Yates, Jack The Ripper, John Wayne Gacy.....the list goes on. A rabid dog, a sickly lion, these lives I find ...NOT VALUBLE as they are not contributing to the cycle nor the the norm of the laws of nature. These are examples of a disease in the cycle of life. 

2a. See Number 1 - Dues to the laws of the universe those that fall under category number 2...still prove to be of some value.


 :asian: 

David Gunzburg


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## Flatlander (May 28, 2004)

c2kenpo said:
			
		

> 2. Is some life NOT valuble? YES! Hitler, Hussien, Manson, Khan, Robert Lee Yates, Jack The Ripper, John Wayne Gacy.....the list goes on. A rabid dog, a sickly lion, these lives I find ...NOT VALUBLE as they are not contributing to the cycle nor the the norm of the laws of nature. These are examples of a disease in the cycle of life.  2a. See Number 1 - Dues to the laws of the universe those that fall under category number 2...still prove to be of some value.    David Gunzburg


I find this to be very close to my belief.  I'm rather impressed, as you are able to still see value where many would not.

The fact is that though these lives we  destructive, our society was given an opportunity to learn about ourselves, and what kind of horrors we are capable of.  The unfortunate part is that too few will reflect on this, and too  many will draw encouragement from the percieved "successes" of these  monsters.

But, should those lives have been taken?  If necessary to prevent further atrocity? Yes.  Absolutely.

But what about as a punishment for their crimes?


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## Cryozombie (May 29, 2004)

c2kenpo said:
			
		

> 2. Is some life NOT valuble? YES! Hitler, Hussien, Manson, Khan, Robert Lee Yates, Jack The Ripper, John Wayne Gacy.....the list goes on. A rabid dog, a sickly lion, these lives I find ...NOT VALUBLE as they are not contributing to the cycle nor the the norm of the laws of nature. These are examples of a disease in the cycle of life.
> 
> David Gunzburg



David...

The Sick and Weak among the Herds allow the Wolves, Lions, etc... to feed.  Many of these predators could not eat if it was not for the sick and weak in nature.  Maybe in an Urban Neigborhood a Rabid dog is bad, or a Sick Lion in a zoo... but they do have their place in the Cycle also.


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## the_kicking_fiend (Jun 5, 2004)

Before we start getting into plants and microbes, etc, I think we need the clarify the position on humans.  Killing a man is very different to killing an animal.  Some would say that life never needs to be taken, but history will remember those as pacifists.  On this 60th D-Day anniversary I think it's important to remember what exactly happened.  Britain threw itself into a war, completely alone, against the huge army of the Axis.  The hope for vicory was not even great but the reason was to stand up against an evil and not just lie down.

Is this an acceptable time to kill?  Soldiers killing soldiers who never see each other's faces or the family of the man they just killed.  The act of killing is always repulsive but the cause and the end were not.  Does the ends justify a means?  Of course in retrorespect it's easy to say it was worth engaging in such a war for freedom, but I think the world should never forget what a terrible cost it came at.


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