# Was Oyama fake?



## 666 (Jan 5, 2018)

First of all, I'm not saying he's fake but I came across this video and wanna hear your opinion about it.


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## Headhunter (Jan 5, 2018)

Seeing as he's a world famous martial artist I very much doubt he was a fake


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## 666 (Jan 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Seeing as he's a world famous martial artist I very much doubt he was a fake


What do you say about the bull fight footage?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 5, 2018)

He was a legitimately great martial artist, but the "bullfighting" stunt was bs. (I read an article by one of his top European students years ago saying the same thing.) I'll also call shenanigans on the claim I read in one of his books that he tested his knife hands by breaking the necks of full grown German Shepards until the humane societies started complaining.

It's worth remembering that Obama did a stint on the pro wrestling circuit in the U.S. and later presented that experience as being a tour where he fought all comers in real challenge matches and was undefeated in 270 fights. The man was not a stranger to hucksterism.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 5, 2018)

oh man...where to start..

Mas Oyama was real.  the mash up editing of the video and the implied narrative....not so much.
i do not know the source of the video but i would imagine its editing was someone other than Oyama himself.   So the Youtube narrator seemed to be focused on the Bull horn. without viewing the original video i feel the edited version of the footage added the horn after the fact and was not part of Oyamas performance.  he was known to "karate chop" off a bull horn and i think the film editor added the horn being thrown on the ground to show this.  however it looks to me that Oyama may not have been able to do this stunt on this particular day or perhaps the footage was not sufficent quality for the video.
the YouTube Narrator says "if Oyama could produce the g forces to smash though solid bone"  .......new flash a horn is not really solid bone there is a bone center but the actual horn is a keratin covering. 
it is clear the Youtube narrator was critical of the hollywood mash up, this should be separated from what Oyama was actually doing.  Hollywood types have a way of screwing everything up.
Oyama was wrestling the bull to the ground.  in itself it doesnt look impressive, especially to those unfamilar with cattle and bulls. i know i couldnt do it.  Oyama was also known to kill bulls with a punch to the head. however the tale is a little over blown,   the tale i heard was that he did kill a bull with punches ..yes multiple punches to its skull over a three day span (if my memory is correct)  i would challenge anyone to do that!!!
so yes Oyama was for real but we have a tendency to make the fish bigger with every telling.


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## Headhunter (Jan 5, 2018)

666 said:


> What do you say about the bull fight footage?


That's fake doesn't mean he is


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i do not know the source of the video but i would imagine its editing was someone other than Oyama himself. So the Youtube narrator seemed to be focused on the Bull horn. without viewing the original video i feel the edited version of the footage added the horn after the fact and was not part of Oyamas performance. he was known to "karate chop" off a bull horn and i think the film editor added the horn being thrown on the ground to show this. however it looks to me that Oyama may not have been able to do this stunt on this particular day or perhaps the footage was not sufficent quality for the video.


Here is the full footage:




To the best of my knowledge, that's the only known footage of his supposed bullfighting. He made this clip (where the horn break is clearly faked) and then later claimed to have done the same thing on multiple occasions, but I'm not aware of any documentation for those claims.


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## 666 (Jan 5, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> oh man...where to start..
> 
> Mas Oyama was real. the mash up editing of the video and the implied narrative....not so much.
> i do not know the source of the video but i would imagine its editing was someone other than Oyama himself. So the Youtube narrator seemed to be focused on the Bull horn. without viewing the original video i feel the edited version of the footage added the horn after the fact and was not part of Oyamas performance. he was known to "karate chop" off a bull horn and i think the film editor added the horn being thrown on the ground to show this. however it looks to me that Oyama may not have been able to do this stunt on this particular day or perhaps the footage was not sufficent quality for the video.
> ...


Great answer man. Do you still know where you heard about the three-day-bull-killing?
But yeah, this is the type of answer I was looking for.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here is the full footage:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the hollywood type production is still funny.  but if we really look at what he is really doing, wrestling a bull to the ground, its pretty impressive.  i would point out that at the very end of the clip it is noticeable that the bull is actually missing a horn.  however its hard to tell if Oyama broke it off or it came off when when the bull fell to the ground.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 5, 2018)

666 said:


> Great answer man. Do you still know where you heard about the three-day-bull-killing?
> But yeah, this is the type of answer I was looking for.


its possible it is in his Kyokushin book,  i will have to look.  if you think about it its kind of cruel if its true


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## 666 (Jan 5, 2018)

Also came across this:




He says somebody hit the horn with a hammer before.
Also he says Oyama didn't kill any bull.


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## JR 137 (Jan 5, 2018)

I’ve read a lot about Oyama.  Stuff written by his fanboys, stuff written by his critics, and stuff written by people in the middle.

Oyama was a great martial artist.  That’s pretty much the only universally agreed upon thing.

My opinion is he probably did some staged things once or twice, and the publicity of it went out of control.  He probably wrestled down a few young bulls here and there to promote the strength of his karate, and it probably ballooned into 100s of full grown bulls. I’ve read that the bull’s horns were sawed pretty far down before he “chopped them off.”  He probably did this a handful of times and it ballooned into 100s of horns.

I’m sure he did some tricks to promote Kyokushin.  The tabloids and his followers most likely exaggerated what actually happened.  Then others exaggerated it even more.  And on and on.

I think Oyama himself didn’t play up the stuff, but I think he was definitely content to sit there and hear others play up his stuff without correcting them.  

Maybe I’m way off.  Just what I’ve seen.


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## 666 (Jan 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve read a lot about Oyama.  Stuff written by his fanboys, stuff written by his critics, and stuff written by people in the middle.
> 
> Oyama was a great martial artist.  That’s pretty much the only universally agreed upon thing.
> 
> ...


I agree.
In his book "The Kyokushin Way" he says he killed someone with a single punch, also that was stated in an article in one of those Black Belt magazines, but he didn't go to jail cause it was self defense. Also this shyt comes up in the manga/anime, fighter in the wind movie stuff.
So I guess this is something confirmed? That would mean he killed a human and a damn bull with one strike, but I guess if you can one strike a bull you can do that to a human too.


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## Tames D (Jan 5, 2018)

Ashida Kim is a world famous martial artist.


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## JR 137 (Jan 6, 2018)

Tames D said:


> Ashida Kim is a world famous martial artist.


I can’t get enough of Ashida Kim.  But for entirely different reasons.

At least what Oyama actually taught on the floor has been proven effective.  No “forbidden fist,” dodging bullets, disappearing, etc...





There’s exaggeration of exploits, then there’s Ashida Kim.


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## 666 (Jan 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I can’t get enough of Ashida Kim.  But for entirely different reasons.
> 
> At least what Oyama actually taught on the floor has been proven effective.  No “forbidden fist,” dodging bullets, disappearing, etc...
> 
> ...


What the F is this? lol


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I can’t get enough of Ashida Kim.  But for entirely different reasons.
> 
> At least what Oyama actually taught on the floor has been proven effective.  No “forbidden fist,” dodging bullets, disappearing, etc...
> 
> ...



Ohhhhhhh.....you gonna get it.  The Black Dragon Society gonna come after you.   Not smart to make fun of members of the super secret ninja society.


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## JR 137 (Jan 6, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Ohhhhhhh.....you gonna get it.  The Black Dragon Society gonna come after you.   Not smart to make fun of members of the super secret ninja society.


Yeah, but at least it won’t be too bad, all things considered...

I won’t see or hear them coming, because they’re ninjas 

I won’t be screaming in pain, because again, they’re ninjas

They’ll just cut my throat in the night.  Or poison dart me in the neck.  I’ll be walking around minding my own business, then everything will just quickly fade to black.  Maybe a little pinch or mosquito bite feeling beforehand, but that’s about it.


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## JR 137 (Jan 6, 2018)

666 said:


> What the F is this? lol


I’ve seen that one so many times and I keep asking myself the same exact thing, word for word.  Only I don’t censor myself.  It never gets old.  You can’t intentionally make something that comical.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 6, 2018)

the clip did show Oyama actually wrestling a bull (ox... whatever)  i think if Ashida was in front of a bull he would do one of those ninja disappearing tricks rather than wrestle it.


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but at least it won’t be too bad, all things considered...
> 
> I won’t see or hear them coming, because they’re ninjas
> 
> ...



Well, an Ashida Kim Disciple will probably use the Poison Hand Technique.

Tomorrow, I will get my son to start studying the Wuxi Finger Hold!  You shall be avenged my friend........Sha-Doosh!


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## Buka (Jan 6, 2018)

Pffft. Killing bulls is easy. I dropped this one last week with a backfist..


 

....with my eyes closed.

But I heard it wasn't exactly a bull Oyama killed. Heard it was a dog with a really cool Lodge Hat. And he didn't really kill him, jut sent him to his room.


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## Headhunter (Jan 6, 2018)

There's a difference between being fake and being overhyped.

For example some say Bruce lee is fake because he was a movie star and some say he's a god who could never be touched by anyone.

Was Bruce lee fake? No
Was Bruce lee overhyped yes


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> Pffft. Killing bulls is easy. I dropped this one last week with a backfist..
> 
> View attachment 21187
> 
> ...



Oh, Yeah......But can you kill goats by staring at them?


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## Buka (Jan 6, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Oh, Yeah......But can you kill goats by staring at them?



Well, yeah, of course. You just have to know how to look at them...



 

Edit: No goats were harmed in the making of this post.


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## 666 (Jan 6, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> There's a difference between being fake and being overhyped.
> 
> For example some say Bruce lee is fake because he was a movie star and some say he's a god who could never be touched by anyone.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but Bruce Lee never stated he could perform something he couldn't. (for as far as I know)
Just to clear things up I like Oyama and to be honest don't like the guys from the videos lol.


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## Headhunter (Jan 6, 2018)

666 said:


> Yeah, but Bruce Lee never stated he could perform something he couldn't. (for as far as I know)
> Just to clear things up I like Oyama and to be honest don't like the guys from the videos lol.


No but hundreds of people completely overrate him and frankly It surprise me if he did lee was known to be very arrogant


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## 666 (Jan 6, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No but hundreds of people completely overrate him and frankly It surprise me if he did lee was known to be very arrogant


Yeah true, but this here is not about how overhyped Bruce Lee was... and I don't really know about arrogant, he is always portrait arrogant but if that's the case I don't know, because there's a difference between being confident and arrogant HeadHuntaaaa.


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## Headhunter (Jan 6, 2018)

666 said:


> Yeah true, but this here is not about how overhyped Bruce Lee was... and I don't really know about arrogant, he is always portrait arrogant but if that's the case I don't know, because there's a difference between being confident and arrogant HeadHuntaaaa.


No plenty of people who knew him called him arrogant as well


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## drop bear (Jan 6, 2018)

The guy scruffed a cow?






Not that uncommon.


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## 666 (Jan 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The guy scruffed a cow?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fukk they doin


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## drop bear (Jan 6, 2018)

666 said:


> The gosh darn they doin



In Queensland for fun you get drunk and try to wrestle cows to the grounds.

It is one of the games played at a rodeo.


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## jks9199 (Jan 6, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No but hundreds of people completely overrate him and frankly It surprise me if he did lee was known to be very arrogant


Interestingly enough -- I've recently learned that a few of my friends did know Bruce Lee, and they don't describe him as arrogant.  Now, that may have changed with time, it may have been the people involved...   They certainly have described him as driven, and training nearly constantly, obsessively.  

As to Oyama... don't know.  I've heard the stories.  Haven't watched this video, been busy.  Wouldn't be at all surprised if the stories grew in the telling -- whether by Oyama or his students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2018)

666 said:


> What the F is this? lol


If this is your first exposure to Ashida Kim, you've been both lucky and deprived. It's painful and entirely amusing to watch, all at once.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve seen that one so many times and I keep asking myself the same exact thing, word for word.  Only I don’t censor myself.  It never gets old.  You can’t intentionally make something that comical.


Yeah, nothing Master Ken has done has been as good as that, and he's really good at it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> Pffft. Killing bulls is easy. I dropped this one last week with a backfist..
> 
> View attachment 21187
> 
> ...


That's like the opposite of a Chuck Norris joke.


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, nothing Master Ken has done has been as good as that, and he's really good at it.


I have a strong suspicion that Ashida Kim is a big part of the Master Ken composite character.


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> In Queensland for fun you get drunk and try to wrestle cows to the grounds.
> 
> It is one of the games played at a rodeo.


I’ve caught myself watching rodeo on tv here.  Something about asking myself why allegedly grown men love playing with barnyard animals and all.

There’s an event where they’re on a horse and chasing a calf.  They dive onto the calf and wrestle it to the ground.  There’s also one where they lasso the a calf, jump down and tie the calf’s feet up.

Some odd stuff goes on in the south.  All sponsored by Pabst Blue Ribbon beer.  And Wrangler jeans.


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## CB Jones (Jan 7, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> There’s an event where they’re on a horse and chasing a calf. They dive onto the calf and wrestle it to the ground. There’s also one where they lasso the a calf, jump down and tie the calf’s feet up.



Well all that has real world application in cattle ranching.

Now Angola Prison Rodeo where they put a ribbon on a badarse bulls horn and whatever inmate can get the ribbon off wins money.......is just for fun......


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Well all that has real world application in cattle ranching.
> 
> Now Angola Prison Rodeo where they put a ribbon on a badarse bulls horn and whatever inmate can get the ribbon off wins money.......is just for fun......


Reminds me of John Travolta getting all impressed when watching the inmates at the rodeo in Urban Cowboy.

And yeah, rodeo is like Cowboy Olympics.  The Greeks took aspects of combat and made competitive games.  Rodeo essentially does the same thing.


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## 666 (Jan 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Now Angola Prison Rodeo where they put a ribbon on a badarse bulls horn and whatever inmate can get the ribbon off wins money.......is just for fun......


Sounds like a good way to get killed lol.


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## Buka (Jan 7, 2018)

Rodeo guys. Those are some seriously tough people.


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve caught myself watching rodeo on tv here.  Something about asking myself why allegedly grown men love playing with barnyard animals and all.
> 
> There’s an event where they’re on a horse and chasing a calf.  They dive onto the calf and wrestle it to the ground.  There’s also one where they lasso the a calf, jump down and tie the calf’s feet up.
> 
> Some odd stuff goes on in the south.  All sponsored by Pabst Blue Ribbon beer.  And Wrangler jeans.



Wrangler? I thought that W stood for wide.

Rodeos are a weird culture. There is so much image and status attached to everything. People who own cattle stations are like their own little kingdoms. They won't even talk to you.


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Wrangler? I thought that W stood for wide.
> 
> Rodeos are a weird culture. There is so much image and status attached to everything. People who own cattle stations are like their own little kingdoms. They won't even talk to you.


While I’m not hip to rodeo culture, I THINK there’s a bit of a divide between actual ranchers (or whatever they’re called) who compete and rodeo guys who do it solely as a sport and aren’t actual ranchers.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2018)

Osu guys! Hahaha I love the direction this thread has taken XD.

Am not 100% sure about Sosai Oyama. My background is primarily Kyokushin, and our Branch Chief trained directly under Oyama many many times and lived up there for a bit. At our annual Sosai Memorial training sessions, after training we would all sit down and Shihancho would tell us all stories about Oyama. According to him he did indeed fight bulls, kill a few too, chopped off the horns, and many other insane feats, like doing the 100 man kumite three days in a row (300 man kumite). He apparently wanted to keep going but they couldn't as they had no people left to spar him (most were injured). Considering the absolutely incredible/insane feat that the 100 man kumite is (of course the format may differ depending on the time/place), 300 man is just ridiculous, but apparently it was recorded that it was done.

I guess with any martial arts history/feats it's best to take them with a grain of salt. Our branch chief told these stories as though they were true, and I think to a large degree they are. Lots of things obviously do get hyped up, but he was an incredible martial artist and not many like him in a sense that I'm aware of.


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## CB Jones (Jan 7, 2018)

Sorry.  No way he broke the horns off with knife hand strikes.

Just from a physics standpoint...the horn is able to withstand way more pressure than what a human could generate.


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## 666 (Jan 7, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Osu guys! Hahaha I love the direction this thread has taken XD.
> 
> Am not 100% sure about Sosai Oyama. My background is primarily Kyokushin, and our Branch Chief trained directly under Oyama many many times and lived up there for a bit. At our annual Sosai Memorial training sessions, after training we would all sit down and Shihancho would tell us all stories about Oyama. According to him he did indeed fight bulls, kill a few too, chopped off the horns, and many other insane feats, like doing the 100 man kumite three days in a row (300 man kumite). He apparently wanted to keep going but they couldn't as they had no people left to spar him (most were injured). Considering the absolutely incredible/insane feat that the 100 man kumite is (of course the format may differ depending on the time/place), 300 man is just ridiculous, but apparently it was recorded that it was done.
> 
> I guess with any martial arts history/feats it's best to take them with a grain of salt. Our branch chief told these stories as though they were true, and I think to a large degree they are. Lots of things obviously do get hyped up, but he was an incredible martial artist and not many like him in a sense that I'm aware of.


Was he there when he fought bulls? Or how does he know for sure?
And feel free to tell us all the stories xD
This is interesting.


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## 666 (Jan 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Sorry. No way he broke the horns off with knife hand strikes.
> 
> Just from a physics standpoint...the horn is able to withstand way more pressure than what a human could generate.


How do you know? Like I'm not trying to defend Oyama but it would be nice if you'd give us some sort of I dunno, information xD
Like an article about bull horns or something like that lol, that states how much pressure one can take.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Sorry.  No way he broke the horns off with knife hand strikes.
> 
> Just from a physics standpoint...the horn is able to withstand way more pressure than what a human could generate.


Hehe yeah fair enough. Like I said, grain of salt . That's what was said, but no idea if true (or possible). I remember him saying that alot of people have said many many times that nah it's impossible the stuff he did, but branch chief was convinced and said it is definitely all true. Who knows!





666 said:


> Was he there when he fought bulls? Or how does he know for sure?
> And feel free to tell us all the stories xD
> This is interesting.


Not sure, I don't think he was there, but it's possible. He'd been training for 40+ years so don't know. I do know that when people idolise others they can exaggerate details all in the name of defending their idol/high projected status. But I won't say that that is the case. He was definitely an incredible martial artist in a whole other league for sure, and did many things. Just hard to prove anything.

Can't remember many other stories sorry, just ones where after training they would all go out for dinner and have a few beers and laughs, and that Oyama was a really kindhearted man, full of integrity and a true martial artist. Judd Reid says the same thing about Oyama. But it's impossible to prove anything from the past, can only go by recounts and what people have said from actual experience.

If I remember any other stories I'll be sure to post!


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## 666 (Jan 7, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Not sure, I don't think he was there, but it's possible. He'd been training for 40+ years so don't know. I do know that when people idolise others they can exaggerate details all in the name of defending their idol/high projected status. But I won't say that that is the case. He was definitely an incredible martial artist in a whole other league for sure, and did many things. Just hard to prove anything.
> 
> Can't remember many other stories sorry, just ones where after training they would all go out for dinner and have a few beers and laughs, and that Oyama was a really kindhearted man, full of integrity and a true martial artist. Judd Reid says the same thing about Oyama. But it's impossible to prove anything from the past, can only go by recounts and what people have said from actual experience.
> 
> If I remember any other stories I'll be sure to post!


Like your perspectives, really "balanced"


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## CB Jones (Jan 7, 2018)

666 said:


> How do you know? Like I'm not trying to defend Oyama but it would be nice if you'd give us some sort of I dunno, information xD
> Like an article about bull horns or something like that lol, that states how much pressure one can take.



Because I grew up on a farm raising cows. 

They use their horns to hit and hook things.....a 1000-1500 pound bull hits with a lot more force than a human.  Their horns are made to withstand that force.


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## 666 (Jan 22, 2018)

At 5:26 for like half a second you can see subtitles saying that he sliced the horn off after the kill and they edited it the other way around, so... can't say for sure what that means but it could mean that the "horn-strike" in the video didn't work and he chopped it off after the fight, which mean the audience saw Oyama chopping a bulls horn off. And if the bull was dead, probably on the ground, means that the angle the horn flew would make more sense. I don't know... just a theory xD




Well, DAMN the whole documentary with subtitles is blocked due to copyright fukk this bs.


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## Grenadier (Jan 23, 2018)

There's no question that a lot of stories can get rather embellished throughout the years, and the stories about Masutatsu Oyama's superhuman feats are no exception to this rule of thumb.  I'm sure that any notable historical figure in the martial arts would have something similar going on as well.  

Despite the embellishments, there's no question that Oyama was one hell of a tough customer, and probably the last person with whom you'd ever want to get into a fist fight.


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## Buka (Jan 23, 2018)

He certainly had the look.


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## 666 (Jan 23, 2018)




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## 666 (Jan 25, 2018)

Okay, in this interview Oyama claims to have fought MANY armed opponents, then his partner says (why not Oyama tho?) he parried the sword with his bare hands (grabbed the blade in mid air with both hands) and defeated the swordsman by side kick.
He also describes his fight with Tom Rice.
Don't know how accurate the the translation is tho.


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## 666 (Jan 28, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> At our annual Sosai Memorial training sessions


What are you doing different in that training session?


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## 666 (Jan 28, 2018)

Oh, or is it just the end part? The sitting down and stories?


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## _Simon_ (Jan 28, 2018)

666 said:


> What are you doing different in that training session?


Basically it's just more of a commemorative session to honour the founder of Kyokushin. Because there are many dojo within the branch, most of us all come together to train together under the one roof. A lot of people in the room! We even used have the traditional drum to start the session 

We do a solid intense kihon session, ido geiko (moving basics, combinations), some kata, and end with spirited kumite. So overall nothing too different, but it's just a great chance for us all to get together to sweat it out and devote it to Sosai. Then at the end we all sit down and our Branch Chief shares stories about Sosai and his time with him. Different parts of Sosai's life, what he really emphasised in the dojo etc.

I love the sessions, and even though I'm not training properly within the branch anymore I'll probably still go to this years in April


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## 666 (Jan 28, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Basically it's just more of a commemorative session to honour the founder of Kyokushin. Because there are many dojo within the branch, most of us all come together to train together under the one roof. A lot of people in the room! We even used have the traditional drum to start the session
> 
> We do a solid intense kihon session, ido geiko (moving basics, combinations), some kata, and end with spirited kumite. So overall nothing too different, but it's just a great chance for us all to get together to sweat it out and devote it to Sosai. Then at the end we all sit down and our Branch Chief shares stories about Sosai and his time with him. Different parts of Sosai's life, what he really emphasised in the dojo etc.
> 
> I love the sessions, and even though I'm not training properly within the branch anymore I'll probably still go to this years in April


Sounds really good, hopefully you'll still use this site then, so you can maybe share some Oyama stories 
That just really interests me


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## _Simon_ (Jan 28, 2018)

666 said:


> Sounds really good, hopefully you'll still use this site then, so you can maybe share some Oyama stories
> That just really interests me


Haha yeah for sure, come April I'll recount the session and stories


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## Nicholas82555 (Mar 29, 2018)

Whether ox or bull, it still takes a tremendous amount of strength to say the least.........


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## punisher73 (Apr 9, 2018)

> _In the past, I’ve avoided discussing the “famous” Kyokushin Kaikan karate business. I needed some time to think about saying anything now, too, as I wanted to be strictly honest toward the memory of my old friend and teacher, Mas Oyama. He did a lot for me, introducing me to the karate world and giving me a new purpose in life. This changed my life completely for the best. For me, Oyama was like a father I never had. In the old days, he showed me all the things you need to be a teacher and helped me through some rough times. On the other hand, I am tired of all the phonies who did not go the straight way._
> 
> _So, let me tell it like it was._
> 
> ...



Taken from an interview with Jon Bluming, a 6th degree under Mas.  Take it for what its worth, but he also seems to agree that Mas Oyama was a great martial artist that had alot of "Paul Bunyan" stories told about him.

Another article that goes through many of the Oyama stories about his time in America.
Mas Oyama in America | The Martial Way


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## JR 137 (Apr 9, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> Taken from an interview with Jon Bluming, a 6th degree under Mas.  Take it for what its worth, but he also seems to agree that Mas Oyama was a great martial artist that had alot of "Paul Bunyan" stories told about him.


Bluming isn’t the most reliable source.  He’s contradicted himself many times, and he’s said many things about people that are proven to be all out lies, either intentional lies or unknowing lies.  Some his personal accounts about things that happened during his own training (stories, not who he’s trained with that I know of) have also been proven false. 

I haven’t seen any video of Bluming fighting nor training, but by all accounts he’s a phenomenal MAist.  His word just isn’t up to his MA skills’ standards.  I have no idea if he’s being factual or not in this interview, but I wouldn’t put much weight in whatever he says.  That being said, I’ve read the same stuff from different people close to Oyama, so it’s likely not that far off.

Oyama’s “legend” for lack of a better word, is immense.  I’m sure the tales of his feats have been highly embellished.  But his skill as a karateka can’t be denied.  And his teaching skill is at least equally impressive; just look at his direct students.


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## JR 137 (Apr 12, 2018)

Here’s an example of Jon Bluming’s ranting.  A lot of the stuff he says are outright incorrect.  A lot is true, only the truth is exaggerated a bit.

Example of outright lie (knowing or unknowingly) is when he discussed Tadashi Nakamura.  He said Nakamura gave himself a 10th dan when he left Kyokushin even though he didn’t meet the acceptable age in Japanese customs.  Nakamura is currently 9th dan.  The truth is Nakamura was promoted to 7th dan by Oyama at an earlier than usual age, due to his teaching ability, spreading of Kyokushin, fighting ability, etc.  Nakamura did not promote himself when he left.  He remained 7th dan for quite some time.  He was promoted to 8th and later on 9th dan by a Japanese budo organization.  I don’t know the organization’s name; Nakamura doesn’t mention when and who.  My teacher (Nakamura’s direct student) told me about it a while back, but it’s not any big thing in our organization.  Allegedly, Nakamura has said several times that he’ll never accept a 10th dan as long as he’s alive.

And the Shigeru Oyama stuff is pretty far off.  I know a few people who studied under him (including my teacher) who’d just shake their heads and laugh at Bluming’s comments regarding him.


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## JR 137 (Apr 12, 2018)

In my previous post, I forgot to link to an interview I was referring to.  Bluming’s demeanor alone says quite a bit IMO...

Jon Bluming, Europe’s first Mixed Martial Artist - Historical - Realfighting Organization


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## _Simon_ (Apr 12, 2018)

Ah that interview was interesting... Yeah Bluming is an interesting one... never know if he's telling the truth, but he does show alot of agendas he has from one interview I saw, quite defensive and so on, but who knows what happened I guess!


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## punisher73 (Apr 13, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Bluming isn’t the most reliable source.  He’s contradicted himself many times, and he’s said many things about people that are proven to be all out lies, either intentional lies or unknowing lies.  Some his personal accounts about things that happened during his own training (stories, not who he’s trained with that I know of) have also been proven false.
> 
> I haven’t seen any video of Bluming fighting nor training, but by all accounts he’s a phenomenal MAist.  His word just isn’t up to his MA skills’ standards.  I have no idea if he’s being factual or not in this interview, but I wouldn’t put much weight in whatever he says.  That being said, I’ve read the same stuff from different people close to Oyama, so it’s likely not that far off.
> 
> Oyama’s “legend” for lack of a better word, is immense.  I’m sure the tales of his feats have been highly embellished.  But his skill as a karateka can’t be denied.  And his teaching skill is at least equally impressive; just look at his direct students.



That's why I put the caveat in there about, "take it for what its worth".  I thought the second article was much more objective.

Either way, it's hard to argue about the results of Oyama's training and what he was capable of passing on and creating with his style. 

 I remember reading an article about some of the "martial legends" that surround some of the great masters of the past and if they were "true" or not.  It pointed out that their main purpose was to challenge students to push themselves harder and farther to try and achieve those results.  If the bar isn't set high on what could be done, who knows how far we can go.  I thought that was an interesting look at the stories.


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## punisher73 (Apr 13, 2018)

As an aside, if you like reading, there are two books on amazon (also kindle version) about two of Oyama's foreign Uchi Deshi's:  Judd Reid and Nicholas Pettas.

Nicholas Pettas:  Blue Eyed Samurai
Judd Reid: The Young Lions

Together, they were the first and last foreign students that were personal Uchi Deshi under Oyama that completed the 1000 day program.


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## KabutoKouji (Apr 17, 2018)

I must read that Nicholas Pettas book - I liked him from presenting Imagine-Nation on NHK before I knew he was Kyokushin


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## punisher73 (Apr 17, 2018)

KabutoKouji said:


> I must read that Nicholas Pettas book - I liked him from presenting Imagine-Nation on NHK before I knew he was Kyokushin



Out of the two books, I like Mr. Pettas' book better.  In all honesty, I have probably read and reread it 5-6 times.  Usually about once a year or so.  I find that it helps motivate me for hard training.


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