# Honesty and Integrity



## John Bishop (Jul 16, 2003)

After seeing some of the members here come to the defense of some people who were proven to be frauds, criminals, or liars (no names mentioned), I just wanted to ask one question of the members.

Do you consider "Honesty" and "Intregrity" to be qualities  important to the practice of the martial arts?


Note to moderators: If you feel this question is better asked in the "Bad Budo" section, please move it.


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## John Bishop (Jul 16, 2003)

To the person who sent me a PM on this topic.  I don't really care for discussions that can not be done in the open.  The question I asked is self explanatory.  No names were or will be mentioned by me.

Simple yes or no question: Is honesty and intregrity a important part of being a martial artist?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 16, 2003)

I think we have beaten this horse once to offten. 
 we all have our own ideas on what is legit and what is not . We all have our own standards or whom we will teach and what illegal activities we will tolerate.
 Lets find something else to discuss.  
 Im sure with all your years of training and taching you can come up with other things to talk about.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 16, 2003)

:deadhorse:

?

Yes, it's been brought up over and over everywhere.  Why?  Because there seems to be a segment of the MA population that believes the arts have no higher purpose than mere pugilism, and character (or righteousness, rather) is determined by who beats up whom.

And as long as there is a segment whom will not accept the bad with the good, there will be more than just polls.  I for one would like the sheep seperated from the goats on this one.


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## John Bishop (Jul 16, 2003)

No names, schools, styles, techniques, associations, or instructors have been mentioned.  

So, why would someone feel threatened by a simple question about honesty and intregrity?


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## A.R.K. (Jul 16, 2003)

John,

I suppose it's because your question has an obvious answer.  I would think that if you truly had proof that a MT member was making fraudulent claims, lying about something related to the arts or has indeed committed a crime that you would post the proof in bad budo for all of us to review.  And if appropriate to be forwarned.  

As it is, this simply seems to be bringing back up personal unsubstantiated opinions from the past.  There is simply no need for this.  There is far to much positive to be explored, discussed and debated to waste more time on negative gossip, hurt feelings and personality conflicts.

If there is proof, post it appropriately, if not, lets move on to better topics.

:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 16, 2003)

No problem here. I just thought the subject had been talked about befor.
And I know you have a world of knowledge to bring up other topics with.
We would have to define honesty and Integrity first then see where it goes.  As long as it keeps away from nameng names and stays in the general generic talk I say ok  but if it strays into nameing names evryone has been warned already.
 So lets have some definitions to work off and see if there is any disagreement on the terms to begin with.
 I'm signing off for the night  (sleep and all that)  but I'll check this thread tomorrow to see where it has gone.
tshadowchaser:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 16, 2003)

Because too often there is a hidden meaning behind the question.

Note, I do not think this of this question, so please no offence is meant.


Do I think Honesty and Integrety are important qualities?

Yes, I do.


Do I think both are lacking, especially amongst many of my supposed seniors?

Yes I do.

But, I'm the beginner who thinks that there is something deeper to be found in the arts, beyond cool ways to beat people up.  I believe that somewhere beyond the posturing, politics, scheming, plotting, planning, and other BS there is something almost spiritual to be found.

Someday, I hope I find it.
:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Jul 16, 2003)

I agree with ARK on this topic, been there done that!

They above statements even though they are not naming names ect. everyone knows what individuals you are refering to, if you have evidence or questions for certain individuals start a thread in the bad budo forum and stop beating around the bush, if not then stop beating the dead horse and let it go!
:asian:


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## John Bishop (Jul 16, 2003)

Kaith:
Your going to find what your looking for.  The vast majority of the people that I have met in the martial arts are very dedicated, honorable people who share a love of the arts.  
Like anything else, it's the bad ones that get the press or attention, so sometimes we think everyone must be like them.  

But what I hope this poll will show is that the silent majority still believe in and practice one of the main precepts of the martial arts.   As Gichen Funakoshi put it, "to seek perfection of character".


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## A.R.K. (Jul 17, 2003)

> The vast majority of the people that I have met in the martial arts are very dedicated, honorable people who share a love of the arts.



Agree 100% John.  It is to bad we as a whole cannot purge out the politics, the BS, the ego's and attitudes.  Most people simply wish to train for a purpose that is personal to them.  And it is a true shame when they are unfortunate enough to get hooked up with those who are more concerned with the almighty $ than developing good students.  

The good news however, is that there is more good than bad...and always will be.  It is up to you, and I and others to provide good, sound advice and information to those who are coming after us.  Lead by example is a good motto to follow for all of us.

Along with honesty and integrity I would also add humility, honor and genuine concern for others.  Take care.

:asian:


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## Shuri-te (Jul 17, 2003)

Some have expressed the idea that virtually all of the people they have dealt with in the MAs are filled with honesty and integrity. I sure wish I could claim the same experiences. I have been exposed to all too many people that, IMHO, are sorely lacking in those traits. 

I will keep my comments to the karate systems I have been most closely associated with.  Let me give a few choice examples from the highest level of the profession, where one might expect exemplary honesty and integrity. 

1. How about the respected *Okinawan head master* who collected $2000 from a U.S. dojo for plane fare to the U.S. and then decided not to take the trip and keep the money. 

2. How about the respected *Japanese head master* who got sloshed the night before a U.S. tournament in his honor, and decided he was too hung-over to attend. 

3. How about the respected *Japanese head master* who arrived 40 minutes late to a 2 hour seminar for 100 students because he was peeved at some slight offense the dojo owner had committed. 

4. How about the respected *Japanese head master* who has concocted an absurd story about his early training in the temple, and how his art has been practiced in the temple unchanged for a thousand years. (And his art just so happens to include Shotokan kata, which arrived in Japan 80 years ago.) 

5. How about the respected *Japanese head master* who bragged how he changed all his kata every time a senior student left (fairly frequently), so that the head master could claim that ex-students were no longer doing his kata. The minor side-effect was that his thousands of students were continually out of the loop as to what the kata actually looked like, and were always scrambling to learn the latest versions. 

I think in much of the martial arts, there are two factors that help send honesty and integrity out the window. 

First, most martial arts schools are very different from other services offered to customers since the teacher wields near absolute authority. If he develops a big ego along with his big rank, he gets to exercise it whenever he feels like it. There are still schools today where the instructor carries around a stick and whacks students who make a mistake. And in places with no stick, there is a virtual stick in the form of yelling and general nastiness. There is an old saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Second, in many systems, the top dog gets to collect annual dues and menjo fees. Menjo fees can be exorbitant for dan ranks (Several hundred dollars, if not more.) Some instructors have dojos, that they rarely visit, and still continue to collect annual dues fees. I have known of several dojos where the top dog collects all the monthly student charges as well. In these, the senior student doing all the teaching might receive a small stipend, but in other cases it is pro bono. Perhaps there is something to the old saying that money is the root of all evil.

In many situations, the top dog runs a virtual monopoly. Students who make a big investment in a system are often reluctant to jump ship and start anew. And in many cases, the school may be the only one for many miles and therefore travel to another system isn't feasible. So the top dog can charge exorbitant fees and treat students like dirt whenever he so desires. 

The simple truth is that martial artists, are just people. If you look at a group of 100 of them, the amount of honesty and integrity is arguably about what you would find in any random group of 100 people. People train in MA for all sorts of reasons: to be better able to defend themselves, to be better able to kick some assets, to develop confidence, to stay in shape or get in shape, to lose weight, to meet people, or maybe just because their parents found them a good afternoon babysitter. IMO, few train solely to improve their character, and for the few that might be successful at it, I would be surprised if it affected much, the overall level of honesty and integrity found within the MA community. 

Many psychologists might argue that personality traits, such as honesty and integrity, tend to be formed pretty early on in life, and therefore joining a MA school and going for a few hours per week, especially later in life (20s, or 30s) should not be expected to have much effect on the overall character development of a person. 

Sartre said "Hell is other people." My experience is that is just as true in the world of martial arts as anywhere else, but with one big exception. In martial arts, the higher ranks get to smack lower ranks upside the head when they think they are getting out of line.


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## John Bishop (Jul 17, 2003)

If I remember correctly the last industry survey showed about 7 million martial artists in America.  So you would have to come up with a lot more examples than the ones listed to show me that it is the few instead of the majority that lack intregrity and honesty.

And there has been published psychological research that showed that martial arts practice when done properly improved the character (self disipline, goal setting, work ethic, etc.) of the individual practitioner.

But more importantly Shuri-te, after reading your opinion of the martial arts, I have one question.  

It may not be my business, but why do you practice the martial arts?


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 17, 2003)

... is that half the poeple out there who study "the arts" are in complete denial of any benefit from the spiritual or moral side of what they do.  And they don't care.

They are welcome to that, but should not call it "martial ARTS" if they lack virtue in what they do.

I don't want to be in the same category as these people.  The vast majority of shcools, if not a McDojo altogether, are more about politics and machisma than any "art".


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## Shuri-te (Jul 17, 2003)

John Bishop stated:



> Shuri-te, after reading your opinion of the martial arts, I have one question. It may not be my business, but why do you practice the martial arts?



I think you might have misunderstood my point. I was in no way commenting on the martial arts. I was commenting on people in general and how one shouldn't expect to find the martial arts to be some utopia of integrity and honesty. Regarding my small sample size, I described incidents not of students in general, but of a tiny subset: Japanese and Okinawan-born head masters of mainline karate systems. My point was that if one expected honesty and integrity to improve with years of training, one would expect virtually all head masters to be beyond reproach. But they aren't. They are just people. Some are honest with integrity, some aren't. 

Regarding the psychological research you cited, from your description, I am not sure what validity it has on the topic of integrity and honesty in the martial arts. You listed the following benefits: "self discipline, goal setting, work ethic, etc." I know plenty of dishonest martial artists with little integrity who are very self-disciplined, have a great work ethic and are good at setting and achieving goals. Like many humans, they are remarkably successful at using all of these skills to make others miserable. And in the dojo, they are empowered to do just that. Many students put up with lots of their poor treatment because they are also dedicated to their art and have little in the way of alternatives. The pros outweigh the cons. They want to train and promote and they are stuck.

Regarding why I study the arts, the reasons are too many to do justice here. I have had a passion for them for 30 years. I believe the old masters created great works of art in the kata they have handed down, and I find pride in being part of the heritage of practicing and teaching their art. I find great value in practicing kata. It is meditative, and great for good health. And on top of that, I greatly improve my ability to defend myself, because inherent in the patterns of Okinawan kata are some of the best self-defense combinations I have ever seen. 

I also derive great personal benefit from sharing ideas with those that are interested. To me, the exchange of MA's ideas with other serious students is one of the great pleasures in life, and there is little I enjoy more than helping my students to better master their art.

One last point. Despite having had interactions with numerous shady people in the arts, I have also established great relationships with many, many martial artists: teachers, peers, and especially the many students I have had the good fortune to help train. It is just that in my experience regarding karate teachers, there is, if anything, an inverse correlation of years training to honesty and integrity. 

This is not to say that more training lowers honesty or integrity, as correlation is not causation. For that, I described two other factors in my previous post: power and money. It is my experience that those two factors probably are the cause of much that is bad in the martial arts, and if training really gave you more integrity and made you more honest, many dojo owners would have to train a couple of lifetimes to overcome these factors.


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## Cruentus (Jul 17, 2003)

I think lack of integrity is one of the biggest problems with the martial arts.

Most problems in the martial arts "world" are due to lack of integrity, whether it is lying about yourself or art/instructor/etc., or accusing someone else without any proof or reason to back the claim.

This is just my opinion.


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## Ender (Jul 18, 2003)

should honesty and integrity be part of the martial arts? yes

part of business? yes

part of sports? yes

part of healthcare? yes.....and on and on.

I think the point is made.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 18, 2003)

The majority seems to think that Honesty and Integrety do matter... Heres the important question then...

Why does it seem like they are so lacking?

People post on msg board under false names, hiding their true identities, knowing full well that verification is not posible.  They then go on to plot, scheme, insult, whatever.  Often times, these are the same people who are held up to be role models in the arts.

The McDojos are a well known case of lack of honesty and integrety.

Too many times "I shared an elevator" becomes "I was a personal student of" it seems.

Why the lies, deceit and other stuff?

What about those who are legitimately 'real', yet seem to think that they are so far above us mean mortals?

Honesty and Intgrety are important.

How about Humility and Compassion?

What about Honor and Valour?


Too many times, greed, selfishness, pride and vanity seem to rule.
A pity too.  I think too many people miss the real rewards and joys in their search for a buck, or an 'attaboy'.

Peace.
:asian:


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## Shuri-te (Jul 18, 2003)

Kaith,

I'm not sure it could be better said.


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## molson (Jul 18, 2003)

I couldn't agree more.... Integrity is lacking in many


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2003)

Hmmmm School education = Intelligent or smart.

Martial Arts Training = Zen Mastery

Just because you graduate from college does not mean you are smart or intelligent.

Just because you study martial arts does not mean you are peaceful, honest or have integrity.


I knew a young lady with a BS in Math, a MS in PHysics and PhD in Electrical Engneering. She could not put together a halogen poll lamp. I also know guys who do not have a degree who can discuss the workings of a Transmission and the forces involved and also the forces of he vehicle at the same time.


One does not equate to the other. No matter  how much we may want it to be.

:asian:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *
> Just because you study martial arts does not mean you are peaceful, honest or have integrity.
> ...
> ...



I agree they do not equate, but I would like to think that if the art is transmitted properly by a person integrity, peace, etc.., that the result will be such things in the students.

Maybe it's just that most martial artists out there were taught by fighters and atheletes instead of the more idealistic sort of warrior-philosopher.


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## Shinzu (Jul 20, 2003)

i think both are very important.  especially when you grow with the arts.  it is part of your foundation.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *I agree they do not equate, but I would like to think that if the art is transmitted properly by a person integrity, peace, etc.., that the result will be such things in the students.
> 
> Maybe it's just that most martial artists out there were taught by fighters and atheletes instead of the more idealistic sort of warrior-philosopher. *



Ken,

I agree it would be nice to think that if the instructor had these qualities, that the student does as well.

In another art from mine, a high ranking Okinawa Karate, had trained in Japan and Okinawa for his degrees. Yet in his club here in the USA on his walls was painted. *"The Goal of the students of this club is a Black Belt"* I think he missed it. At the very least in his teaching it to others. Note: He hosted a seminar for my GM and I had a chance to train with him and some of his senior students, and believe me when I say that most were lacking in honesty and integrity.

This is  something else that is mistaken in the Martial Arts as well. Oh he has high rank he is a great teacher. Some High ranking practitioners are just that practitioners, and have no teaching ability.

Just my Opinions
:asian:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *... Note: He hosted a seminar for my GM and I had a chance to train with him and some of his senior students, and believe me when I say that most were lacking in honesty and integrity.
> 
> This is  something else that is mistaken in the Martial Arts as well. Oh he has high rank he is a great teacher. Some High ranking practitioners are just that practitioners, and have no teaching ability.*



For "opinions", they both hit the mark.

The latter is the main problem of transmission in lineages.  Which gets the baton passed to them as head of a system?  The best practitioner or the best teacher?  They are rarely the same person.  That's why a longer lineage isn't necessarily better.

With the former though, the error is not in my assumption (as idealistic as it may be), but in that many people start their own schools who do not (or should not) have the teacher's blessing.

In my own case, I beleive that my teaching methods "weed out" people who cannot see the point -- the higher path.  Students who lack certain qualities will simply not find what they are looking for in me, and move on.  And I won't acknowledge anyone's "seniority" unless it is earned on ALL levels.

But again, that's just the way I teach, and other teachers may not have planned this into their teaching (or not known how to).  Would make a nice thread, though, eh?


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *For "opinions", they both hit the mark.
> 
> . . .
> ...



Feel Free to start a thread on this topic. That is what this board is for. The exchange if ideas in a friendly manner is what this board claims and tries to promote.

:asian:


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## John Bishop (Jul 20, 2003)

I've always felt that the negative aspects of the martial arts started about the time someone figured out they could make money teaching martial arts.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *I've always felt that the negative aspects of the martial arts started about the time someone figured out they could make money teaching martial arts. *



Nope.  It was a power trip long before that.


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## angrywhitepajamas (Jul 21, 2003)

On the other hand once they realized what money they could make for miniomal effort  via multilevel marketing strategies, they jumped on the band wagon along with other multi level marketing schemes.  This includes the power tripp.


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## A.R.K. (Jul 21, 2003)

> I've always felt that the negative aspects of the martial arts started about the time someone figured out they could make money teaching martial arts.



I think John has expressed a very valid point.

:asian:


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## Captain Harlock (Jul 21, 2003)

Honesty and integrity are fast becoming lost in the arts.  The focus is now on Ego and Greed.

Those who have had the pleasure of training under the few truely honorable instructors left understand just how blessed you are.

And you who have bought your rank, status, or reputations, be damned for to you the way is forever outside your reach.


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## Kirk (Jul 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Honesty and integrity are fast becoming lost in the arts.  The focus is now on Ego and Greed.
> 
> Those who have had the pleasure of training under the few truely honorable instructors left understand just how blessed you are.
> ...



I think it was in A&E's Biography of Bruce Lee, people that were
around him at various stages of his life said there were always
challengers.  While shooting Return Of The Dragon, there were
multiple challengers, DAILY, from  Hong Kong, not to mention the
roof top battles he engaged in before moving to the states.   
What else could fuel that sort of conduct other than the desire
to be the big boy on the block?  What would drive that?  Ego,
and Greed.  This tells me that it's always been a part of M.A.,
except maybe not in the original temples.

It seems to me that in kenpo, the most  humble, non political
seniors seem to have the largest followings, and the most loyal
students.  Maybe a sign of change.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I think it was in A&E's Biography of Bruce Lee, people that were
> around him at various stages of his life said there were always
> challengers.  While shooting Return Of The Dragon, there were
> ...



Bruce may be a bad example (due to his ego), but accepting challengers is part of the evolutionary process of martial arts.  Without it, development would be slow, collaboration non-existent, and many arts would degrade into a pitiful "I got by but kicked because he didn't fight the way we do in our school."

I'm not saying the "king of the hill" stuff isn't usually nonsense, but without some of it, there's no reality in the theory.


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## Shinzu (Jul 22, 2003)

trying to find a person that is more focused on the arts than the mony is a difficult thing in itself.

too many see the green grass at the other end, but do not want to take the time to plant the seeds.


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## A.R.K. (Jul 23, 2003)

Often time those who teach out of their garage, or in the park, or at a church etc are better teachers than those with all the whistles and bells.

The whole point is the teaching of the discipline, not the fluff and feathers.

If the instructor is not burdened with expenses, maybe he can concentrate more on just teaching???

Just a thought and in no way meant to disrespect good school owners.  Aimed at the McDojo's.

:asian:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Often time those who teach out of their garage, or in the park, or at a church etc are better teachers than those with all the whistles and bells.
> ...
> If the instructor is not burdened with expenses, maybe he can concentrate more on just teaching??? *



If you teach out of your garage, you probably ARE burdened with expeses (living expenses) and must have a job and cannot devote full time to your art.  I've never seen anyone teach full-time out of their house or basement, etc..

In other words, it works both ways.

There are good and bad schools in and out of strip malls.  In the malls, you risk McDojo, in the basement, you risk Cult-Fu.


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## A.R.K. (Jul 24, 2003)

Ken,

I understand your point.  I see it a bit differently .  For example, I have been blessed with a full time career and part time teaching at the local college.  So when I teach the A.R.K. discipline to others, it is out of passion and a desire to pass on what I've learned.  It isn't about making extra money, in fact, I really don't make very much.  

I have three assistants, one of which has an office building that he allows us to use space in.  So I have no overhead save the annual insurance and equipment upkeep.  That is the point about someone teaching out of the garage, park, church etc.  They may well be doing it for love of teaching not the politics and $ that have invaded the world of martial arts.

Think of it this way, remove the greed and politics from the martial arts and what would we have.......

:asian:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *...
> Think of it this way, remove the greed and politics from the martial arts and what would we have.......
> 
> :asian: *



People like us.




But we don't disagree ... I just see the advantage of running it as a business publicly, allowing one full time teaching, is apples to oranges with the Non-McDojo low-overhead lessons with less accountability.  They both have advantages and disadvantages, and I would never say one is better than the other except on a case-by-case basis.

My situation is closer to yours, as I could never make it a living without it becoming a business, and I don't want that.  But I still like the idea of doing it full-time and really improving my skills (and shape!).  It's a catch-22.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2003)

> My situation is closer to yours, as I could never make it a living without it becoming a business, and I don't want that. But I still like the idea of doing it full-time and really improving my skills (and shape!). It's a catch-22.



I'll agree with that statement completly.
I'd love to just teach and train, and study but cant affrd it . I would have to change my whole way of teaching to keep a place open all the time, and I will not sell belts just to stay open.


Then again I do have this great bb course for $3000 :rofl: Cash up front 30 day wonders:rofl:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *... Then again I do have this great bb course for $3000 :rofl: Cash up front 30 day wonders:rofl: *



Does it include a FREE uniform, and death touch?  Do you take PayPal?

:rofl:


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## Joe (Jul 24, 2003)

I know my instructor has a small Dojo and very rearely even breaks even but his desire to share the Arts isnt taken away by no fluff. Ive been to Mcdojo and prefer a basement, garage ect.

"Winning means beig unafraid to lose"


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## A.R.K. (Jul 26, 2003)

> Ive been to Mcdojo and prefer a basement, garage ect



:cheers:


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 26, 2003)

Ego and the need to be seen as macho is the drive the causes most of the fraud in the martial art. If someone can make money off of the arts, that is just icing on the cake.

It is a base emotional drive for many people. They want to be macho. We all know people who act this way.

If profit were the major drive of fraud in the martial arts, then why are there so many people who lie about their military records? Think about is. There is no profit in telling people that you were a decorated member of an elite unit. Yet people do it all the time.

Some of the most inept martial artists I have met did not teach for money. I just ran across another one today. They teach out of parks and the like and talk about how they do it for the passion, or their responsibility to prior generations...etc, but it all comes down to the fact that they are looked up to by their students.

Adn I am finding out that many of them infest the internet. They seem to be the most active members of many forums. And they are quick to quickly agree about problems they themselves help cause and talk about the problems with other people.

Oh, and the thing the guy who I ran across today was most vocal about was the greed of bigger teachers and orginizations. I felt like smacking him across the room, but there were too many witnesses and I have to keep a low profile right now.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Ego and the need to be seen as macho is the drive the causes most of the fraud in the martial art. If someone can make money off of the arts, that is just icing on the cake.
> ...
> Some of the most inept martial artists I have met did not teach for money. I just ran across another one today. They teach out of parks and the like and talk about how they do it for the passion, or their responsibility to prior generations...etc, but it all comes down to the fact that they are looked up to by their students.
> ...



I totally agree from personlal experience, except that I chased a fraud's school off the net more than once -- now they don't show their faces ANYWHERE if they can help it.

http://www.buffalotaichi.com/dragonsong/


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 27, 2003)

I have been doing some thinking and the biggest signs that you are dealing with a ego driven fraud can be summed up in three areas.

1- They start their own art. But they usually give great excuses as to why they need to be the uber- soke instead of just training and teaching under someone else.

2- They never talk about their teachers. In some cases, this is because they have no teachers and learned from books and videos. But in many cases it is because their entire life revolves around them with no acknowledgement of those that helped them get where they are.

3- They join impressive- sounding orginizations like the "World Combat Teachers Certification Authority." Membership in these types of orginizations only require a little bit of cash, some photos and some certificates that are never checked if they are genuine or not. But to the unwary they sound impressive and the guys in them make it sound like they are the most stringent with whom they will let in.

The twerp who I met yesterday fit all of the above. I showed up in the park to see him because I had never heard of the taiji style he had advertised. He was barely old enough to drink a beer but loved being treated as a master of martial arts. It was clear to me that he had never actually studied under a real teacher and instead put together what he had learned from various books and videos. He changed the subject when I asked whom he had learned from. And he claimed membership in an orginization that an internet search showed was little more than a mutual ego stroking society.

Profit is good, but there really is not much money in the martial arts unless your name happens to be a household name like Gracie, Segal, etc. But the chance to be seen as some sort of macho martial arts master is something that fuels the guys teaching out of their garages and parks.
:soapbox:


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 27, 2003)

David Moore ... anyone hear of him?

Probably not, even though he visited the Dali Lama in Tibet who knew him personally!

(Funny how the Dali Lama was in exile since before he was born ... it must have been "in spirit")

He gave me all kinds of runarounds when asked about his "private" art.  And he gave me line after line of historical information I knew he was just making up.


----------



## DAC..florida (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *David Moore ... anyone hear of him?
> 
> Probably not, even though he visited the Dali Lama in Tibet who knew him personally!
> ...



Maybe you should start a thread about this "moore" in the badbudo section, thats where your story would fit better and most members of this board know to go there for just that type of info.. Who knows maybe your not the only one he's lied to on this board.
:asian:


----------



## KennethKu (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I think it was in A&E's Biography of Bruce Lee, people that were
> around him at various stages of his life said there were always
> challengers.  While shooting Return Of The Dragon, there were
> ...



Did you know that it happened so conveniently that whenever such challenges occurred there was always a camera and a crew ready to film the fight for next day's headline?  lol   Words were those were preplanned publicity stunts.   Don't get me wrong, I am not here to diss Lee.


----------



## KennethKu (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *If you teach out of your garage, you probably ARE burdened with expeses (living expenses) and must have a job and cannot devote full time to your art.  I've never seen anyone teach full-time out of their house or basement, etc..
> 
> In other words, it works both ways.
> ...



Yes.  A scumball is a scumball.  No matter whether he teaches (or more precisely, scams) out of his garage or the local Y or the stripmall, he is still scamming uninformed students.


----------



## KennethKu (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *I have been doing some thinking and the biggest signs that you are dealing with a ego driven fraud can be summed up in three areas.
> 
> 1- They start their own art. But they usually give great excuses as to why they need to be the uber- soke instead of just training and teaching under someone else.
> ...



Interesting!!   Sound just like someone we know here....... Coincidence????


----------



## James Kovacich (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Interesting!!   Sound just like someone we know here....... Coincidence???? *


Who?


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Maybe you should start a thread about this "moore" in the badbudo section, thats where your story would fit better and most members of this board know to go there for just that type of info.. Who knows maybe your not the only one he's lied to on this board.
> :asian: *



Good idea -- consider it done.


----------



## KennethKu (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Who? *



Haha!  Obviously not you. But I am sure you know WHO.


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Haha!  Obviously not you. But I am sure you know WHO.   *



I think I know who, but I mostly hang out in the FMA forums, so I am not sure who.

So...

Who?


----------



## KennethKu (Aug 4, 2003)

LOL  !     The "who" would probably stick his head in and declares the hat fits soon enough!  lol   

Oh here is another hint to the "puzzle",  the 4th Characteristic missing from Shadow Hunter's list of signs of fraud is, the typical crook will hide behind God, Country and motherhood. He would typically camouflage or wrap himself in the flag, declaring repeatedly to anyone who shows any sign of interest that he is on some mesiahnic (sp?) mission to serve God, Country, teach in churches, rescue the weak, redeem the sinners from jail, instruct women, children *for free*, yada yada yada and so forth.  lol

While I am at it, I would also like to point out that you can bet your a$$ that 99.99% of those who claim to be associated with or have connection to, or train the CIA, FBI, special forces, or whatever secret military/LEO units,(yeah right! Those orgs train their own operatives and agents inhouse and they don't need no stinking wannabe outsiders ),  are: 1. nut case, 2, adolescences looking for attention, 3. adult losers, 4, liars.   

Without exception, anyone who is worth his/her salt in those situation would NEVER reveal, let alone flaunt it openly.  Even the janitors at the those facilities have Top Secret classification.

I am sure most who have been around the blocks a few times, already well aware of this little fact. But I hope this can benefit a few of the youngings.


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 4, 2003)

Yup...I'm pretty sure that I know exactly who you're talking about, lol.

As for training Military or LEO....it isn't that hard to do. I have had units stationed at the near by base in Michigan train with me for a few weeks. I have had cops in my classes. It's really no big deal. I'm cheap (I discount them hugely), laid back, and I teach combat related arts that they find useful. They all have there own approved programs, but some like to explore some different avenues that aren't covered in their training.

Like I said, though, it's no big deal. I wasn't on some top secret base teaching top secret killing techniques. It just doesn't work that way.....Usually you have a guy in a unit who trains in this art, or found this instructor, so they all decide to take a lesson or two in that art. It's all kind of hacked together so that they can learn as much practical info as they can in a few short hours w/o having to waste a lot of time.

I don't claim it on my resume,' or use it as a marketing tool. I'm not Military, so I don't pretend. I find it funny when others do; it's one of those things that impresses the general public when there is nothing to be impressed about. Some people act like they were sanctioned by the government to teach when the reality is they may of had 1 or 2 LEO or Military in a class for a day. What morons....:rofl: 

Ramble ramble..... :soapbox:


----------



## A.R.K. (Aug 5, 2003)

Actually Ken, 



> While I am at it, I would also like to point out that you can bet your a$$ that 99.99% of those who claim to be associated with or have connection to, or train the CIA, FBI, special forces, or whatever secret military/LEO units,(yeah right! Those orgs train their own operatives and agents inhouse and they don't need no stinking wannabe outsiders ), are: 1. nut case, 2, adolescences looking for attention, 3. adult losers, 4, liars



its in very poor taste to talk about a poster who is know longer here to defend himself.   Yes Ryu talked some tall tales such as teaching the CID which is the CIA of the DoD etc etc.  But let it go Ken!  

Oh, and lest I forget, there are some questions you have yet to answer.  Here let me post the link..

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9257&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Third from the bottom.  I'm sure it was a simple oversight on your part....

Hey, great to see you back from your long suspension.  You know, the one you earned for running your mouth.  I'm sure you learned your lesson and that won't happen again.

Looking forward to your reply to the questions you've overlooked.


----------



## A.R.K. (Aug 5, 2003)

Paul,

I understand your point and agree.  But again, Ryu isn't here and shouldn't be picked on.  Yes he admitted, when I confronted him] that he didn't teach 'for' the army but only had a couple of guys in his class from the nearby base.  But he's packed up tent and went on his way.  Let's just let it go...

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 5, 2003)

Dude...I don't think anybody was talking about Ryu.

And...I was just speaking generally.


----------



## A.R.K. (Aug 5, 2003)

Paul,

My apologies.  Ryu is the only one in recent memory that boasted this type of thing that I'm aware of.  Sorry for making the assumption, my bad.

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 5, 2003)

Guys...

Just a friendly warning....

Don't go there.

:sniper:


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Oh here is another hint to the "puzzle",  the 4th Characteristic missing from Shadow Hunter's list of signs of fraud is, the typical crook will hide behind God, Country and motherhood.*



I did not mention religion because in my experience not all people who are frauds try to hide behind religion. However, in my experience, all those who make a big show of being religious have serious moral problems.

I do not want to say that people who believe in religion are bad. I know a few who are very religious and quite honorable. However, those who make a big show of their religious bent and put crosses on their uniforms, quotes in their internet signatures and mention religion on their web sites have in my experience been people of low moral charecter hiding behind religion.

These are the types who try to cast blame on others when comparisons that fit them come up. These are the types that judge others, while trying to avoid being judged themselves.

And they are always trying to hide something.

Mind you, I have met people who have started training sessions with prayers of thanks to the creator. But until then I had no idea of how religious they were. In my experience, anyone who mentions christ as soon as you meet them is trying to hide behind religion.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *... Mind you, I have met people who have started training sessions with prayers of thanks to the creator. But until then I had no idea of how religious they were. In my experience, anyone who mentions christ as soon as you meet them is trying to hide behind religion. *



I'm Christian and I somewhat agree.  Being not ashamed of it or even proud is one thing; wearing it on your sleeve borders on hypocricy.

But people do this without realizing it sometimes.  It's like some peopole who are hung up on being learning disabled, abused as a child, legally blind, whatever (I've met them all) -- it's the first thing they tell you when you meet them, even at a bus stop.  It's just SO importnat to them that they lose touch with the reality of appropriate social behavior.

And it screams out "I have no life apart from my hang-up".

And although spirituality itself isn't necessarily a hang-up, RELIGION for many people IS.


----------



## Shuri-te (Aug 6, 2003)

> ...those who make a big show of their religious bent and put crosses on their uniforms, quotes in their internet signatures and mention religion on their web sites have in my experience been people of low moral charecter hiding behind religion.
> 
> These are the types who try to cast blame on others when comparisons that fit them come up. These are the types that judge others, while trying to avoid being judged themselves.
> 
> And they are always trying to hide something.



Now that's an interesting perspective. We have in the U.S. a population of evangelical Christians numbering in the tens of millions. Their creed implores them to share the "GOOD NEWS" of their faith in their savior. Many choose to do this in innocuous ways, with bumper stickers, and Internet signatures. Many others wear a simple cross, on a chain, or on their gi, in part, to advertise their belief. Some of these evangelicals, especially those of _*low moral character*_ even have the gall to travel to remote parts of the planet to work with some of the most needy people on earth as part of their efforts to spread the word and follow their calling.

Now, at long last, we have the truth. Every one of these millions of believers is *"TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING."*

Whew. I am relieved that this is finally all cleared up.


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 6, 2003)

Shadow Hunter & Shuri-te

you guys are both overgeneralizing....

that is what causes "religion" arguements rather then discussions.


----------



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Now, at long last, we have the truth. Every one of these millions of believers is "TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING."
> 
> Whew. I am relieved that this is finally all cleared up. *



Even though you have both right and reason to say such things, it's still damn ignorant and insulting to some of us, unless you are truly being sarcastic.

There are countless selfless missionaries not just looking to convert people, but to do true acts of mercy.  There are countless Christians whose belief is to stand up and be counted as part of their spirituality.  It's not all smoke and mirrors, putting on shows, etc.., even if for many it is.

Many "Christians" give the rest of us a bad name, but the same is true for most martial arts -- which is the REAL topic of this thread.


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski _
> *Many "Christians" give the rest of us a bad name, but the same is true for most martial arts -- which is the REAL topic of this thread. *



Yep, and for the more dense, or those trying to cause trouble, I will say this again- _I do not have anything against any type of religion!!!_ But it is my experience that those that make a big deal of their religions, especially if they try to use their piety as some sort of shield against inquiries of their behavior, that they should be looked at with caution.

Classic case, how many times have we seen someone bash another person like we just saw in this thread and utterly forgetting the words, 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'? Ah, but if you find out that they or their orignization has commited some sin they will be quick to say that you should forgive past mistakes.

It is not religion that is the problem, but rather those that try to use it when it suits them and no other time.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Aug 6, 2003)

It has been my experience that whenever anybody sounds off to you about how patriotic, religious, or moral they are, you should immediately get a firm hand on your wallet and check, as  they say in war novels, your six.


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 6, 2003)

Robert...what do you mean.

I am moral, and religious! 

Now, send me $500. You can make your check or money order out to "The Paul Janulis Doesn't wear pants when he types foundation." We also accept Visa, Mastercard, or Discover. Thank you. 

:rofl:


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## Shuri-te (Aug 6, 2003)

A martial artist on MT creates a signature, the equivalent of "Jesus Saves". We are told that this is 


> making a big deal about his religion


And we also have been told that people who make such a


> big show of being religious have serious moral problems


And finally, we have been told that people who use these kinds of innocuous signatures will  


> try to use their piety as some sort of shield against inquiries of their behavior


I guess we were all supposed to have known that


> anyone who mentions christ as soon as you meet them is trying to hide behind religion.


It his been enlightening to learn that a person believes he can learn so much about a MT poster simply because the poster has chosen to include a dozen words about Jesus in his signature. I suppose it was therefore fitting to make a biblical reference in an attempt to inform this poster on the error of his ways.


> Let he who is without sin



As long as scripture is being quoted, there are some who might see the appropriateness of this passage: _Judge not, that ye be not judged._


----------



## Shadow Hunter (Aug 6, 2003)

Is anyone beside me being weirded out by the fact you can always count on person A coming out swinging whenever person B is being talked about? Even if no names are being mentioned?


----------



## James Kovacich (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Is anyone beside me being weirded out by the fact you can always count on person A coming out swinging whenever person B is being talked about? Even if no names are being mentioned? *



Who is person A and who is person B?


----------



## A.R.K. (Aug 7, 2003)

AKJA,

I don't know but I sure would like the cryptic inuendos to stop    If someone has something to say in reference to someone, good or bad, and can justify it then they should come out and do so appropriately.  Otherwise it counts for so much hot air.

I personally wonder about people who don't put their real name in their profile, I thought it was a rule of this board they agreed to upon registering.  I also wonder about those who don't have anything in their profile but then seem to delight in passing judgement on others  

This board has been pretty informative as of late, hate to see a few try to come back and start their holier-than-thou ramblings again.  I say anyone who hasn't the courage or backbone to post anything other than baseless inuendo should be ignored for the troll they present themselves to be.  An honorable person that has a problem with someone else should be man [or woman] enough to come out in the open and address the issue directly with the person in question.

But alas, there seems to still be a few who would rather hide behind their computer.  No *INTEGRITY*  OR *HONOR*  there :shrug:


----------



## James Kovacich (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *AKJA,
> 
> I don't know but I sure would like the cryptic inuendos to stop    If someone has something to say in reference to someone, good or bad, and can justify it then they should come out and do so appropriately.  Otherwise it counts for so much hot air.
> I say anyone who hasn' *



Thats kinda where I was leadin'

:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Aug 7, 2003)

:rofl: :asian:


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## KennethKu (Aug 11, 2003)

Note to admin: Sorry Bob, not to disrespect your reminder, however, some clarification is in order here.  Misinformation must not be allowed to poison the pool. Afterall, you wouldn't want MT to be a forum of incorrect BS. That would be a travesty of MT's standard of honesty and integrity, wouldn't you say?




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Actually Ken,
> 
> its in very poor taste to talk about a poster who is know longer here to defend himself.   Yes Ryu talked some tall tales such as teaching the CID which is the CIA of the DoD etc etc.  But let it go Ken!  .......
> ...




a. I only come here once a week at most. So pardon my delay in reply.

b. Nice try, ARK.  RyuShikan is someone I respect and honor to call a friend.  Therefore, I am obviously NOT referring to him in my posts.

c. To be suspended for calling out a fraud, and suffer the same prosecution  alongside honorable men such as RyuShikan, Mike Clark, etc,  is like being send to jail while riding with John Wayne the Duke. It is a badge of honor!! (FYI, try www.webster.com if you don't comprehend the concept of honor     lol  )

d. Your questions? What questions? Sorry, I tend to ignore posts devoid of content.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 11, 2003)

ARK, KennethKu - if you have an issue with each other, take it off board.  This isn't the place to go down the road it looks like you are.


----------



## KennethKu (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *I did not mention religion because in my experience not all people who are frauds try to hide behind religion. However, in my experience, all those who make a big show of being religious have serious moral problems.
> 
> I do not want to say that people who believe in religion are bad. I know a few who are very religious and quite honorable. However, those who make a big show of their religious bent and put crosses on their uniforms, quotes in their internet signatures and mention religion on their web sites have in my experience been people of low moral charecter hiding behind religion.
> ...



Religion is fine. Being religious is fine too.  My reference was to "hiding" behind religion, the same way the crooks typically camouflage themselves using some righteous cause.  Bible-thumbing is just another one of the usual tricks.

lol  I love this one from RmRobertson,  "It has been my experience that whenever anybody sounds off to you about how patriotic, religious, or moral they are, you should immediately get a firm hand on your wallet and check, as they say in war novels, your six."    BRILLIANT!!


----------



## KennethKu (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *ARK, KennethKu - if you have an issue with each other, take it off board.  This isn't the place to go down the road it looks like you are. *



No problem Bob. I would rather not have anything to do with him, had he not twisted my words to slander my friend RyuShikan. I am honor bound to defend RyuShikan from this BS.  I am sure you or any reasonable person would understand this point.


----------



## DAC..florida (Aug 11, 2003)

In my opinion religion shouldnt be a issue, have you nothing else to confront someone about that you need to attack their religion?

I love to see people who are proud of thier beleifs and are not afraid to share them, so in my opinion MAYBE YOU SHOULD FIND SOMTHING ELSE TO DISCUSS this type of posting angers me and shouldnt even be a issue!

  :soapbox:


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 11, 2003)

What honor lies in attacking or sniping at one who can not defend themselves?

What honor is there in attacking someones deeply held personal beliefs?

None.

:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *What honor lies in attacking or sniping at one who can not defend themselves?
> 
> What honor is there in attacking someones deeply held personal beliefs?
> ...




NONE!:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 11, 2003)

There is too much defensiveness on this thread, in my opinion.

A few people came out and said, in a nutshell, that "through their experience" people who "advertize" their religious beliefs are difficult to trust.

Then a few people who were "religious" jumped all over it in a very snide manner. I'll respond the way I feel a Christian person should respond:

" I know what you are saying, and it is unfortunate that this has been your experience with religious people who "advertise" their beliefs. I consider myself "religious" and "spiritual," even though I don't like the stereotypes that people have towards religion and spirituality. However, I don't wear my beliefs on my sleeve as readily as some. This is just my choice, and I would rather try to live everyday for a greater good, and to the fullest and best of my ability; this is how I represent my religion. Some choose to advertize their beliefs. I can say that through my experience, many who do are not bad people. Although that there are scam artists out there who hide behind their religion, these are usually just a few bad apples contaminating the bushel; there are many who just feel that they are doing their duty by letting people know that they are Christian (or whatever denomination). They don't profit from it, and they don't have anything to hide.

I'm sorry that your experience has been so negative. I know that there are a lot of Christians who "advertise" there beliefs who don't fall into the stereotype that you have run into. I hope that someday you'll have a chance to meet some of these people."

There....bam, done, end of story. That is my kind response to those who have had negative experiences with Christians who "advertise." I am not being defensive or slamming them. They were being honest; some people here are honestly skeptical when people feel the need to project there beliefs on to others. I can say that I am honestly and rightfully skeptical as well, and I am a christian; yet I still keep an open mind.

So, you are dealing with people who honestly believe that Christians who advertise religion are using it to hide behind their unkind and immoral behavior, so then you proceed to advertise that your Christian, and then act unkind towards them. Hmmmm. Your not helping the "stereotype" by fitting the "stereotype" like a glove.

You'll attract more bee's with honey.

Paul

P.S. I don't want to hear any whiny crap about "don't judge me...", added with a bunch of scripture to show me my errors. I am talking about peoples actions here, not anyone as a person. So just take my advise for what it's worth, and stop the behavior.


----------



## KennethKu (Aug 11, 2003)

I can see that some people's Hooked-on-Phonics was lost in the mail.  

Has anyone attacked anyone's religion or belief anywhere?  

We are talking about *fraudsters camouflaging* themselves using the Bible!

ATTENTION:  If you are NOT a fraud, then it does not apply to you.  lol    If you are a decent human being, who does not fake your rank, who does not lie nor cheat, then feel proud to spread the Gospel . Alleluia! Brothers and Sisters.    Let Freedom Ring! (or whatever hell you want it to ring  lol  )


----------



## DAC..florida (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *I can see that some people's Hooked-on-Phonics was lost in the mail.
> 
> Has anyone attacked anyone's religion or belief anywhere?
> ...




I know! I just dont understand what the bible has to do with it or their religion for that matter, either thier frauds or their not!

FYI
I did receive my copy it was not lost in the mail.


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I know! I just dont understand what the bible has to do with it or their religion for that matter, either thier frauds or their not!
> 
> FYI
> I did receive my copy it was not lost in the mail. *



I can definatily agree with that...a fraud is a fraud!

FYI
Could you mail me your copy when your done?


----------



## KennethKu (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I know! I just dont understand what the bible has to do with it or their religion for that matter, either thier frauds or their not!
> 
> FYI
> I did receive my copy it was not lost in the mail. *



LMAO!  "thier frauds or their not" ?   A lawsuit against the publisher of Hooked-on-Phonics is in order.  lol

BTW, did you ever sue your TKD instructor who cheated you over all these years and faked you all the way to 6th DAN?  That should be an open and shut case.    LOL  I would testify that you certainly no 6th Dan in TKD, on your behalf, in court. D  Sorry, can't resist that one!) You can easily recover the money you have wasted on that crook instructor over the years and possibly sue for damages to self-esteem and possibly other damages as well etc.  Don't let the crook scew with your time, and your mom and dad's hard earned money and get away home free.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 11, 2003)

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
I belive kaith has already asked all here to be polite 
Please do so
again thank you 
tshadowchaser
Moderator


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## James Kovacich (Aug 11, 2003)

Don't quote the dictionary but what are your definitions of a fraud?

:asian:


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## Cruentus (Aug 11, 2003)

To me a fraud is someone who deliberately decieves to achieve some kind of personal gain (money status, etc.).

This is my non-dictionary definition, anyways.


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 11, 2003)

I saw the warning. I am good about modifying my behavior if I step out of line.

I don't think that the warning was directed at me, but if I do step out of line please PM me so I will be able to correct the mistake.

Thanks,


----------



## James Kovacich (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *To me a fraud is someone who deliberately decieves to achieve some kind of personal gain (money status, etc.).
> 
> This is my non-dictionary definition, anyways.
> ...



I'd say we are in line on that. I just don't see how or why religion got mixed up in it.

And it was directed to any and all.

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I'd say we are in line on that. I just don't see how or why religion got mixed up in it.
> 
> :asian: *



Yea...neither do I. All I know is that someone said that they distrust religious people who "advertise" their beliefs. Then some "religious" people got very defensive. It all got real dumb real fast.

I stepped in and said my piece, however.

Also, I think some people think that A.R.K. is a fraud. This is just the way this whole thing appears to me. Please, everyone, don't jump all over my @$$ for me saying it. Don't get on my case for saying the sky is blue.

I personally don't know what ARK does or is. I study FMA and combative MA; I stick to what I know. I would have to meet ARK or DAC, or another one of ARK's people to determine for myself if he was a fraud or not. Until then I won't make an assumption that I can't back up, and as always, I keep an open mind. I'm not out trying to police everyone, so at the moment it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

So, I don't know what's up with this whole conversation. That is why I am in it; curiousity I guess. If anyone here thinks that ARK, or anyone is a "fraud" I would hope that they would either just say so in a polite fashion so the MODS don't rip you a new one, provide proof to substantiate it, then move on.

Otherwise, just move on. The cloak and dagger BULLS**T is getting kind of ridicules.

:deadhorse


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## KennethKu (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I saw the warning. I am good about modifying my behavior if I step out of line.
> 
> I don't think that the warning was directed at me, but if I do step out of line please PM me so I will be able to correct the mistake.
> ...




LOL  Hey Paul you are not at the office, so no need to stick that pair of lips out.     (Note: I used to work for a blue blood investment firm. So I know the protocol in office.  lol  )


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## DAC..florida (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I can definatily agree with that...a fraud is a fraud!
> 
> FYI
> Could you mail me your copy when your done?  *



Sure paul I'll mail it to you, but if you ask some of the members here you shouldnt hold your breath because you could end up dead! :rofl:


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## DAC..florida (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *LMAO!  "thier frauds or their not" ?   A lawsuit against the publisher of Hooked-on-Phonics is in order.  lol
> 
> BTW, did you ever sue your TKD instructor who cheated you over all these years and faked you all the way to 6th DAN?  That should be an open and shut case.    LOL  I would testify that you certainly no 6th Dan in TKD, on your behalf, in court. D  Sorry, can't resist that one!) You can easily recover the money you have wasted on that crook instructor over the years and possibly sue for damages to self-esteem and possibly other damages as well etc.  Don't let the crook scew with your time, and your mom and dad's hard earned money and get away home free. *



I actualy talked to one of my old friends who was also cheated, and he told me that my old Instructor ( the fake ) has no school and lives in a trailer. I guess there wouldnt be much to sue for!
I did learn TKD from him, he just got carried away with the testing fees and promotion levels ect.

Ken,
I am glad this is not going to court because that would mean that you would probably have to take yet another "vacation" from MT as you would be in jail for commiting perjury and lying under oath, how could you testify what I am or am not when you have not even met me?

I am very pleased with my current rank's and feel I have more than earned them!

BTW, I dont realy need hooked on phonics I just type to fast!

That was a cheap shot but... I did find a little humor in it.:rofl:


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## DAC..florida (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> I personally don't know what ARK does or is. I study FMA and combative MA; I stick to what I know. I would have to meet ARK or DAC, or another one of ARK's people to determine for myself if he was a fraud or not. Until then I won't make an assumption that I can't back up, and as always, I keep an open mind. I'm not out trying to police everyone, so at the moment it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
> 
> ...




Paul,
I appreciate your opinion and your open mind and hope that some day maybe we could meet?

As far as the whole religion thing...... I think that Martial Talk is not the place to discuss religion or politics and I do agree with what you said, yes there are frauds in anything in life!

FRAUD- some one who profits from others with lies and deceit!
or someone who says they are somthing or someone they are not!
:asian: 

I sincerely hope that the members of this board listen to you and politely prove or acuse people who they thimk are frauds and end this whole discussion once and for all, only two things can happen then either they prove or disprove the acusations that they make and this gives the acused a chance to defend themselves.


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## A.R.K. (Aug 12, 2003)

Paul,

I would definately say that Ken Ku thinks that I'm a fraud.  However, this is based on a personality conflict and the fact that I have stood up to defend another individual he doesn't care for.  This is in no way, shape or form based on factual data though.  It is an opinion only.

However, if Mr. Ku feels that he has something substantial to offer, I whole heartedly invite him to create a thread in Bad Budo with evidence to 'out' me.  I will join him there in the spirit of friendlyness and polite discourse.  He may feel free to ask any question of me there as well, even though I have answered every question ever asked of me on this board.  

In fact, I think after I finish dinner tonight I will beat him to the punch and begin a thread on this very topic.  In this way he may feel free to inform the readership about his factual data concerning my fraudulent behaviour and my bogus ranks.  

To the mods/admins I ask patience in this manner.  I am inviting, in the proper forum, direct and honest commentary from Mr. Ku about this issue.  In this way, he can either present the evidence that I am a fraud [which everyone here should be aware of if I am], or the matter can be closed once and for all if he has nothing more to present than a personality conflict and opinion.

Thank you.


 :asian:


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## Cruentus (Aug 12, 2003)

as a "bystander" on this issue, this sounds fair enough to me.

 :asian: 

DAC: Meeting would be a good thing. I am not in Fla. Frequently, but If I happend to take a trip, I would love to visit you or your school. I also welcome you to visit me if your ever in the Detroit area, Michigan.


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## A.R.K. (Aug 12, 2003)

Well Paul, I feel that it speaks directly with the topic of this thread.  I have nothing against Mr. Ku, however it would seem that he has somewhat against me.  Perhaps only miscommunication on both of our parts.  In this light I strongly feel that it is bes to 'go to the source' and discuss the situation like adults.  Perhaps he has a legitimate complaint that I am unaware of?  Perhaps I have done something to offend him which I need to apologize for?  Perhaps it is merely a personality conflict that can be resolved with a little effort?

I have PM'd him requesting that he join me to discuss the issue and have a peacefull resolution.

:asian:


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## KennethKu (Aug 18, 2003)

The question whether David Schultz is a fraud or not, has long been settled. All the evidence and facts have been presented and rebutted and counter rebutted. There are people (who have since left MT in disgust) who have researched Mr. Schultz's background and shared their findings, publicly and privately.

I personally have zero interest in Mr Schultz's art or whatever he represents.  Hence I would not care to spend one second of my time to research Mr Schultz's background.  However, the people who have done the research, are well respected former members of MT.  Their conclusion is good enough for me.    

Not surprisingly, Mr Schultz and his cohorts would think otherwise.  

Those who would like to find out what the conclusion of the research into Mr. Schultz's background, can PM me or email me. I would direct you to the former members and you can communicate with them directly. (Reply would take about a week.  )   I apologize for not been able to devote more time at MT answering this issue.  Fortunately, those people (former members who have done the research) are real martial artists who DO NOT see a snake in the grass and just turn the other way.    

In this way, we can also spare MT the "beating the dead horse" nuisance.


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## KennethKu (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Well Paul, I feel that it speaks directly with the topic of this thread.  I have nothing against Mr. Ku, however it would seem that he has somewhat against me.  Perhaps only miscommunication on both of our parts.  In this light I strongly feel that it is bes to 'go to the source' and discuss the situation like adults.  Perhaps he has a legitimate complaint that I am unaware of?  Perhaps I have done something to offend him which I need to apologize for?  Perhaps it is merely a personality conflict that can be resolved with a little effort?
> 
> I have PM'd him requesting that he join me to discuss the issue and have a peacefull resolution.
> ...


It is not a personality conflict issue. There is nothing to be resolved with me. Your problem is not with me.


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## A.R.K. (Aug 19, 2003)

Thank you Ken for your response here and in my thread in Bad Budo.  I have responded there with a much more detailed post regarding your agenda-driven remarks and attacks.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 19, 2003)

Admin Note:

This threads run its course I think.

Theres been little discourse recently that couldn't have (and probably should have) been done off board.

Thread now locked.

:asian:


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