# The logic behind the placement of kihaps in Taegeuk forms



## TrueJim (Jul 6, 2015)

Here's a question that's been posed in the Comments section on the taekwondo wiki...

Why doesn't Taegeuk Pal Jang have a kihap at the end?

I think a broader version of the question is: what's the logic behind where kihaps appear in the Taegeuk series of forms? Anybody have any ideas?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm sure you can find someone to suggest all sorts of philosophical reasons, but there's a simple and fairly obvious one too.

All of the taegeuk poomsae follow the same line on the floor.    







So this is taegeuk il jang, obviously. Notice that the last movement takes the student back to their starting position, but facing "backwards"
This is true of all the taegeuk poomsae.
Except pal jang.
The "ending" kiap is on the movement that (if the form has been performed correctly) returns the student to their starting position, including pal jang.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 6, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Here's a question that's been posed in the Comments section on the taekwondo wiki...
> 
> Why doesn't Taegeuk Pal Jang have a kihap at the end??



The same reason Yuk Jang doesn't: it is earlier in the form.


TrueJim said:


> I think a broader version of the question is: what's the logic behind where kihaps appear in the Taegeuk series of forms? Anybody have any ideas?



The kihap appears where a particular focus is required for the movement. In the earlier forms, this is at the end, introducing the idea of the kihap to denote something, in this case the end. In the later forms, kihaps appear where the movement is strenuous or requires special focus. 

For Yuk Jang, it is on the Dollyochagi, which is out of apkubi, is specified as high section and is followed by a turn out. This is very unusual and is a defining movement in the form. To me, this is telling the practitioner 'focus your attention here, this movement requires concentration and a lot of practice'.

The same is true of doobal dangsong apchagi in Pal Jang. It is strenuous, takes practice, and is arguably the movement that defines the form.

If I follow this line of reasoning into the black belt poomsae, the kihaps still carry a message.

Koryo: agwisonchigi x 2. Form defining movement (along with the side kicks). Sharp edged striking surfaces are repeating theme in the form, often in combinations, sharp like the scholar it represents and projected forward like the spirit of the men of the Koryo dynasty. The two kihaps are on single aggressive motions, almost as if to say 'keep it simple. This works.'

Keumgang: Santeul Makki x 2. Along with Keumgang Makki, a form defining movement which contains the ponderosity of the forms meaning in the low heavy stance and mountain peaks represented by the head and hands. This posture also carries symbolic relevance from a Buddhist perspective, relating to emptiness and detachment, which supports the meaning 'too strong to be broken'. I also wonder if the meaning of Keumgang 'diamond' hints toward the Diamond Sutra.

Taebaek: momtong chireugi x 2. Both the punches with the kihaps and the appearance of double punch combinations in this form tell the practitioner in this form, the last of the 'body' poomsae, that the middle punch is a staple in our repertoire. But not just that, but also where they appear in the line of the poomsae when viewed from above. The meaning of Taebaek, bright mountain, relates to the story of the creation of the Korean race, and Hwanin, Hwanung, Dan Gun and the Bear, Tiger, Mugwort story (you can google it if you don't already know it). The story relates to the grandson of heaven on n earth, the link between Heaven and Earth, the physical world and the metaphysical; metaphorically, the link between the mind and the body. The line of the poomsae is like the Taegeuk series but with no horizontal middle line in the Gwae. The kihaps appear when we get to heaven (the top line) and when we get back to earth (the bottom line). Considering that the pattern is the last of the 3 'body' i.e. Physically focussed patterns, and the next pattern is Pyongwon, the first of the 'mind' i.e. Heaven patterns, AND that the student should have built a connection between body and mind by this stage, it makes sense for the kihaps to appear at each end of the line between heaven and earth. Oddly enough, those middle punches are also between the high section and the low section, heaven and earth.

I could go on, but I suspect I might be the only person on the planet with an appetite for this sort of thing.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 6, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm sure you can find someone to suggest all sorts of philosophical reasons, but there's a simple and fairly obvious one too.
> 
> All of the taegeuk poomsae follow the same line on the floor.
> 
> ...



What about Taegeuk 6 Jang?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 6, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What about Taegeuk 6 Jang?



An exception that proves the rule. 

While I agree completely that the kiap in yook jang in at the single most complex section, this is, again, an exception. The kiap is chil jang is on the final move, and I don't think anybody is likely to claim that this is any sort of 'defining moment' for that form.

I think that, for the most part, the kiap simply means "this is the end". Every technique should be performed on the exhale anyway, and a kiap is just a louder exhale.


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## TrueJim (Jul 6, 2015)

I have a new theory: I'm thinking the authors didn't want to put any kihaps on any of the three lines, because then you'd need two kihaps on the same line in order to keep the lines symmetric. Since Pal Jang ends on its third line, it _can't_ end with a kihap, lest it throw off the symmetry of the line.

All of the other forms end on the stem, not on one of the three lines, so that begs the question, why doesn't Yuk Jang end with a kihap?

So here's another thing to consider: all of the forms that end with a kihap, your eyes are pointing back toward the starting position (the "na" direction). Of course for Yuk Jang your eyes are facing "ga" (and you return to ready by moving the right foot), and in Pal Jang you're facing "ra" at the end.

So maybe the logic the authors used was this: if you end the form looking at "na", kihap. Otherwise, we'll have to put the kihap somewhere else.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 6, 2015)

Or maybe they did it just to confuse us when we try to figure out why they did it.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or maybe they did it just to confuse us when we try to figure out why they did it.


Yes, could be. Maybe be they put one or two not at the end to show that the kihap does not have to be at the end. Or, maybe they put it at the end by default, unless there was something else of significance in the form that they wanted to draw attention to. 

Yuk Jang - Water - kihap on the most noticeably flowing motion. 
Pal Jang - Earth - kihap on the motions which force the practitioner to work against gravity. 
Chil Jang - Mountain - Kihap on the low and stable stance at the end.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2015)

Oh damn, now you lot have got me going through my karate kata's looking for kiais to see where and why they are there!


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## Gnarlie (Jul 7, 2015)

Can't help you there Tez! Forgive my ignorance, I don't even know which patterns are typical for Wado?


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Can't help you there Tez! Forgive my ignorance, I don't even know which patterns are typical for Wado?



The first ones we do are the Pinan series, I'm going to sit down and have a look at them, I do notice the difference between them and the TSD ones in that the kiais and kiyaps are in different places, TSD have theirs mostly at the end.

One thing though, when watching a pattern/kata do you prefer a silence or what I call heavy breathing with every move? And the kiais/kiyaps long or short and sharp? The one thing I really cannot stand is when people use the word 'kiai' to shout, it's just naff lol.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 7, 2015)

My view on breathing is that it should be exclusively through the nose and should be almost inaudible if it isn't a kihap. I dislike audible breathing in forms, I think it shows a lack of understanding (or fitness).

The kihap is short and sharp, from the diaphragm, and not cut off by the throat or lips. It should move up in intonation, rather than down. Nothing worse than a depressed sounding kihap IMO!


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## TrueJim (Jul 7, 2015)

Loud breathing is a no-no at our school. I think most of us breath-in through the nose during the chamber, then breath-out quietly through the mouth during the technique. The instructors are non-prescriptive about this though, other than to frown on loud breathing.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 7, 2015)

I had a very prescriptive instructor at a seminar recently who said, 'fill your lungs three quarters on the chamber and let two thirds of that out on the strike, all through the nose.'


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2015)

I hate hearing loud breathing through the kata, it will, I think, after reading the OP negate any point in having kiais/kihaps at certain points if you are going to make so much noise throughout the kata.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> One thing though, when watching a pattern/kata do you prefer a silence or what I call heavy breathing with every move? And the kiais/kiyaps long or short and sharp? The one thing I really cannot stand is when people use the word 'kiai' to shout, it's just naff lol.



New people shout "kiap" all the time. I just chuckle inwardly and let it go.



Gnarlie said:


> My view on breathing is that it should be exclusively through the nose and should be almost inaudible if it isn't a kihap. I dislike audible breathing in forms, I think it shows a lack of understanding (or fitness).



Disagree. The exhale should be through the mouth. The larger passages will allow a larger volume of air to pass at a higher flow without making noise. This rapid exhale and contraction of the core muscles aids in power production. That _is_ the reason for the kiap, after all.



Gnarlie said:


> I had a very prescriptive instructor at a seminar recently who said, 'fill your lungs three quarters on the chamber and let two thirds of that out on the strike, all through the nose.'



I have a documented lung volume of greater than 3 liters. Poiseuilles law will demonstrate quite clearly why what you're describing is not physiologically possible.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> New people shout "kiap" all the time. I just chuckle inwardly and let it go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I find it impossible too, at the very least without having a snot related disaster when hot and sweaty. I take that in the spirit it was intended though - breathing should be present on each motion, and should not be exaggerated unless it is a kihap.

I have never met a Korean mouth-breather, and particularly those I personally admire carry a certain dignity in their poomsae that is difficult to retain when breathing through the mouth. I guess it's a personal thing, but I would be corrected by my teachers for mouth breathing.

This is typical of the 'correctness' and style I aim to emulate, and that of my master instructors. Breathing is inaudible at most points, even when the awful elevator music isn't playing:


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## TrueJim (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm sitting here zooming-in on videos of Kukkiwon-style poomsae champions, and as much as I hate to admit it, Gnarlie has a point...if anything it looks like they open their mouth slightly to inhale on the chamber, and then exhale though the nose during the technique...exactly the opposite of how I do it. Dangit.


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## WaterGal (Jul 7, 2015)

This thread is really interesting - I honestly hadn't thought a lot about this before.

This thing about people yelling "kihap!" cracks me up, too. "Energy Together!"  It sounds like something from an anime show.


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## TrueJim (Jul 7, 2015)

I like to shout, "Wonder Twin powers, activate!" for my kihap.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 8, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I'm sitting here zooming-in on videos of Kukkiwon-style poomsae champions, and as much as I hate to admit it, Gnarlie has a point...if anything it looks like they open their mouth slightly to inhale on the chamber, and then exhale though the nose during the technique...exactly the opposite of how I do it. Dangit.



I would be interested to hear what your instructor's views are too.

I've been working this kind of breathing into my Taegeuk poomsae over the last two years (previously I just wasn't really considering breathing, I was just breathing regularly right through regardless of movement). It's a hard habit to build.


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## TrueJim (Jul 8, 2015)

I haven't had a chance to ask my instructors yet (I didn't go to class last night and the night before - relatives in town), but among the videos I watched were some of my instructors, along with others from YouTube. 

(One might be inclined to think, "Well that's just your instructors Jim..." but again...two former K-Tigers, both having won a lot of poomsae competitions.)

Here's an example, you can see our Dong-jin Kim opening his mouth slightly to inhale during the chamber as he comes up the stem, and then breathing out through his nose during the technique.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 8, 2015)

Any thoughts on this @andyjeffries ?


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## Drakanyst (Jul 9, 2015)

folks yelling "kihap" is the best. it's literal translation is " YELL ". grab that for some irony. although over here i've heard some hilarious kihaps that english speakers would never dare utter during a class.


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## TrueJim (Jul 9, 2015)

I could be wrong, but I thought "ki" meant _spiritual energy_, and "hap" meant _gather-and-focus_ (roughly). So the kihap is where you're gathering and focusing your energy. Also, I've read that the kihap isn't viewed as the _cause_ of the focusing, it's viewed as the _result_ of the focusing.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 9, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought "ki" meant _spiritual energy_, and "hap" meant _gather-and-focus_ (roughly). So the kihap is where you're gathering and focusing your energy. Also, I've read that the kihap isn't viewed as the _cause_ of the focusing, it's viewed as the _result_ of the focusing.


Hap (합) can mean different things, but in the context of a Kihap (기합), it means summation, collection, conjunction, harmonisation, alignment or similar.

Gather and focus works for me!

As to what Ki is, that's open to a wide range of interpretation. It's the steam on your rice...


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 9, 2015)

According to our Kwanjangnim, kihap is 'the noise you make to focus your mind and power.'

One of the difficulties with a language like Korean is that the built in assumptions don't match those of English speakers. Lots of things cannot be translated as words, so you're stuck trying to translate concepts. Always a difficult thing to do.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 10, 2015)

There are also different types of kihap for different contexts and reasons.

The kihap I use in poomsae
The kihap I use in step sparring
The kihap I use at demonstrations before a technique to psych myself up and indicate readiness
The kihap I use at demonstrations on the technique
The kihap I use when reassuming a fighting stance post break
The kihap I use in relaxed sparring
The kihap I use in full contact competition

Are all different, with appropriate reasons why.

None of them are like this. This actually hurts me:


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## TrueJim (Jul 10, 2015)

I was just looking for this video the other day! I wanted to show it to somebody. I had seen it about a year ago but couldn't remember where I found it. 

Out of curiosity, does anybody know the story behind the performance? It exaggerates everything so broadly...why? Did her instructor believe this was correct, or did they exaggerate for a reason?

Here's why I wanted to show this video to somebody though: I think it's a great example of somebody doing their own "interpretation" of a standard form. Not that the interpretation is good, but it's so obviously an "interpretation" that it slaps you in the face with how interpretty it is. So when somebody says, "I don't understand what you mean by doing my own interpretation" you can show them this video and then...BAM..."Oh I get it."  (Just don't interpret it like this.)


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## IcemanSK (Jul 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> There are also different types of kihap for different contexts and reasons.
> 
> The kihap I use in poomsae
> The kihap I use in step sparring
> ...




I've seen MANY bad versions of Koryo in my time. This tops them all.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 10, 2015)

Makes me want to snack her instructor, for several reasons. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## TrueJim (Jul 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Makes me want to snack her instructor, for several reasons.



...yah exactly, that gets to my question....there must have been somebody coaching that your lady...why did the coach think that would be a good idea? Maybe it was a competition to see how much you could stylize a poomsae?


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 10, 2015)

I've seen lots of interesting variations from people visiting Korea from other countries. I don't even bother correcting them if they're just training for the week. They are convinced that they learned it the "right" way.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 11, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I've seen lots of interesting variations from people visiting Korea from other countries. I don't even bother correcting them if they're just training for the week. They are convinced that they learned it the "right" way.



I don't understand how people can get it so wrong in the age of the internet. Maybe they live and train in a cave.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 11, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't understand how people can get it so wrong in the age of the internet. Maybe they live and train in a cave.


I've even seen non-Koreans "correct" the Korean pronunciation of a Korean born instructor...priceless.


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I've even seen non-Koreans "correct" the Korean pronunciation of a Korean born instructor...priceless.


I know someone like that, she corrects all sorts of people who are experts in their field but she always knows better.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 11, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I've seen lots of interesting variations from people visiting Korea from other countries. I don't even bother correcting them if they're just training for the week. They are convinced that they learned it the "right" way.



I agree. There's no point in trying to correct a visitor. They're going to do it that way they were taught (or the way they think they were taught) and if they're visitors, it's not my place (or my problem) to correct them.
At the most, I might comment along the lines of "Interesting. We do that a little differently here."


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 11, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I agree. There's no point in trying to correct a visitor. They're going to do it that way they were taught (or the way they think they were taught) and if they're visitors, it's not my place (or my problem) to correct them.
> At the most, I might comment along the lines of "Interesting. We do that a little differently here."


I do wonder what they're thinking when everyone else in class is doing poomse the same way except for them. Are they going back to wherever home is and saying, "Those Koreans are doing it wrong"?


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## IcemanSK (Jul 11, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> ...yah exactly, that gets to my question....there must have been somebody coaching that your lady...why did the coach think that would be a good idea? Maybe it was a competition to see how much you could stylize a poomsae?



The video mentions ATA in it. If she's an ATA person, she's not only taken a form she doesn't know, but made an attempt to make it look Okinawan with deep stances to make it palatable for an open tournament. Korean stylists don't generally do well in open tournaments.


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## TrueJim (Jul 11, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't understand how people can get it so wrong in the age of the internet. Maybe they live and train in a cave.



...on the other hand, I mention to a lot of my fellow parents that they can watch the poomsae on YouTube to help their children with their homework, and the parents look at me like....What? YouTube has videos of this stuff???


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> ...on the other hand, I mention to a lot of my fellow parents that they can watch the poomsae on YouTube to help their children with their homework, and the parents look at me like....What? YouTube has videos of this stuff???




I assume you tell them which ones to watch lol. In my style Wado Ryu we are lucky, we have the founder on video showing how to do the kata though no doubt someone will say he's not doing them correctly. Our stances are short ones, with a fair few being almost upright so I guess we wouldn't do well if the judges are expecting long stances.
I've often wondered how these open competitions go, I've only been in comps in my style, I can't see how the judges can tell whether someone is doing the pattern/kata/form correctly is they don't know it. I can tell some things from watching other styles but not whether that's the correct stance etc. I wouldn't like to judge a TKD pattern against a WC one against a Shotokan one.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 11, 2015)

Good point. If that version of Koryo makes it to the final as the video says, that doesn't say a lot for the judges, regardless of which style they come from, it's just horrible.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 11, 2015)

In my limited experience with open tournaments, the judges I've seen have tended to be Okinawan Karate or Kung Fu folks, to the exclusion of Korean stylists. Korean stances are looked down upon for being too high. The top competitors are Karate & Kung Fu. I was once told "Korean styles are just bad Shotokan." Hence the reason Korean styles aren't appreciated in open tournaments.

This girl in the video is wearing a white uniform (definitely not an ATA dobok) &  using very uncharacteristicly low stances. Both, I'm thinking, in an attempt to hide her origin (and those of this form). She turned back stances into low horse stances in this form.

 As to why she did well, who knows what the other compeitors looked like.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 11, 2015)

She also changed 90% of the techniques to something that they are not.

Even the side kicks were ropey. End position correct and great for posing, but that's not how you get there or get back. 

Even just looking within this form the performance of stances and techniques was highly inconsistent, lacked symmetry, and was more hot air than actual content.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 12, 2015)

Further thought on topic. Some of the kihaps in the Taegeuk forms (and Koryo) used to be in different places. Does anyone else remember / still do this?

Example on of my early instructors used to kihap on the step forward punch in pal jang.

The kihap at the top of koryo also used to be done on the mureup keokki too.

Maybe it was just that one guy...I suspect so.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Further thought on topic. Some of the kihaps in the Taegeuk forms (and Koryo) used to be in different places. Does anyone else remember / still do this?
> 
> Example on of my early instructors used to kihap on the step forward punch in pal jang.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I originally learned them that way, too.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 12, 2015)

I remember a kihap on the single backfist at the top of O Jang too - I know other people learned this too as I STILL see people do it accidentally from time to time.

If they were in different places, and it wasn't just that our instructors' understanding of the form was incorrect, then that would pose a question as to just how significant the location of the kihap really is...


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## TrueJim (Jul 12, 2015)

An anonymous user on the wiki made the same comment: that the kihaps used to be in different places.

It should be easy to check, we just need to find an older instruction book. I'll look through my collection.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Further thought on topic. Some of the kihaps in the Taegeuk forms (and Koryo) used to be in different places. Does anyone else remember / still do this?
> 
> Example on of my early instructors used to kihap on the step forward punch in pal jang.
> 
> ...



We still do Koryo that way. I do teach it both ways, though. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 12, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> An anonymous user on the wiki made the same comment: that the kihaps used to be in different places.
> 
> It should be easy to check, we just need to find an older instruction book. I'll look through my collection.



Maybe someone with a pre 2006 KKW textbook can confirm. I lent out my older copy and never got it back


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## IcemanSK (Jul 12, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> An anonymous user on the wiki made the same comment: that the kihaps used to be in different places.
> 
> It should be easy to check, we just need to find an older instruction book. I'll look through my collection.



My first master referred to the 1975 KKW textbook and we did the kihaps in different places than they are currently in a few Poomsae. TG Oh Jang, for example, had a kihap at the backfist at #8. It's still hard for to not kihap there, as it seems a good placement for one. I don't know if the was stated in the 1975 textbook, or not.


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## TrueJim (Jul 12, 2015)

Speaking of numbering the steps in books...

I get the impression that that's changed over time as well? The head of our school uses a different numbering for the steps than what I believe the Kukkiwon currently uses, and somebody once mentioned to me that the numbering can vary a lot from school to school, which lead me to think that it's probably something that's only recently been standardized. (Things that are standardized early tend to be used more consistently from school to school, I think.) 

Also, I get the impression that the purpose of numbering is (to some extent) to describe the cadence of the steps. Multiple steps with the same number but different lettering (e.g., 8a,b,c) are intended to be done without a beat between movements...i.e., as actual combinations? The point is, if the numbering has changed over time, presumably that means the recommended cadence has changed over time as well (and which movements are viewed as combinations, rather than individual movements)...in addition to the changing of the kihaps.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 12, 2015)

The number of steps in each form has changed over time, definitely.

I remember when I started it was 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 23, 25, 24, and now it is 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 19, 25, 27.

The combined movements have changed.

It bugs me a bit that quite a few people claim Il Jang's Arae Makki Momtong Jireugi is a combo, when doing so leaves you with 16 movements.

These changes have definitely had an effect on the flow of the performance of the Taegeuk series, most notably 6 and 8, where the number has decreased and increased respectively.

The decrease for Yuk Jang means there is more flow, which is good for a pattern representing water. The increase in Pal Jang has made the pattern slower and more ponderous, placing more emphasis on weight shift, which again suits its philosophical meaning.

It puzzles me that the final motions elbow, backfist, punch are now separate though, they made such a fluid combo. Perhaps the judges just couldn't see it to score it...


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## TrueJim (Jul 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I remember when I started it was 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 23, 25, 24, and now it is 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 19, 25, 27



The former is what we use at our school, the latter is what I use on the wiki.



Gnarlie said:


> It bugs me a bit that quite a few people claim Il Jang's Arae Makki Momtong Jireugi is a combo, when doing so leaves you with 16 movements.



...and yet, when you perform Taegeuk Il Jang, do you pause a full beat after the Low Block, before you Punch? The numbering would seem to imply that one should, and yet I don't usually see it performed that way.

I've always assumed that the idea is, "This is your first form, it's too early to worry about combinations, so let's just number each step individually" even though it's performed more like a combination.



Gnarlie said:


> It puzzles me that the final motions elbow, backfist, punch are now separate though, they made such a fluid combo.



Agreed. It's oddities like this that make me think, "We'll probably see a new numbering scheme sometime in the future, when somebody at Kukkiwon decides this doesn't make sense after all."


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## Gnarlie (Jul 12, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> The former is what we use at our school, the latter is what I use on the wiki.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The former is out of date. The latter is in the latest edition of the KKW Textbook.

I do pause there moderately, enough to move the area makki hand to a relaxed chamber before the punch. I think that might have been the reason - to make sure people are still using two hands on the punch.

I can argue against myself there though, because by that token there would need to be a rechamber and two handed motion for the backfists near the end of pal jang, and nobody does that. Hm.

I agree it will probably change again. Which is good. We evolve.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I remember a kihap on the single backfist at the top of O Jang too - I know other people learned this too as I STILL see people do it accidentally from time to time.


My current school does it this way.  When I said I didn't think there was a kihap there, I was told things change all the time.  It made me think youtube and my prior school were out of date, but I guess not!


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## andyjeffries (Jul 13, 2015)

IcemanSK said:


> Any thoughts on this @andyjeffries ?



On the placement of Kihap?  Not really...  I'm still polishing up my dan thesis (and it's on poomsae) but I don't really touch the reasoning behind kihapping in poomsae.  My thesis is more about the mental and physical aspects of Kukkiwon poomsae and how they progress in difficulty/skill development.

I ought to think more about kihap placement, but to be honest, it seems to be fairly random to me.  Also, I'm almost finished with my thesis but I still want to compare Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae with ITF hyung development and Karate's pinan series - so I have enough to keep me busy still.

Thanks for the ping though my friend.


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## andyjeffries (Jul 13, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> An anonymous user on the wiki made the same comment: that the kihaps used to be in different places.
> 
> It should be easy to check, we just need to find an older instruction book. I'll look through my collection.



I have the book "Poomse" from the WTF published in 1975, if no one has anything older...  I can have a look tonight if it helps?


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## andyjeffries (Jul 13, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> My current school does it this way.  When I said I didn't think there was a kihap there, I was told things change all the time.  It made me think youtube and my prior school were out of date, but I guess not!



There are often minor changes all the time (that's a nice thing about Taekwondo for me, always tweaks/changes to learn to be "up to date"), but I have to say this is most often an excuse from instructors that learnt their way from their instructor, who learnt it from theirs on up the chain and no-one has wanted to stray outside their little area of the community to learn the more modern ways.  In Korea things have been pretty standardised for many years, it's the rest of the world that does it their own quirky ways* - it's not Korea/Kukkiwon changing it all the time.  It's also definitely not restricted to just lower dans!

Take it from someone who knows, my local instructor was like that (I managed to change his mind about 5 years ago, but he passed away 2 years afterwards).

* This was very obvious when I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in 2013, and I'm sure @Jaeimseu would agree as he was there too...


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## Gnarlie (Jul 13, 2015)

andyjeffries said:


> There are often minor changes all the time (that's a nice thing about Taekwondo for me, always tweaks/changes to learn to be "up to date"), but I have to say this is most often an excuse from instructors that learnt their way from their instructor, who learnt it from theirs on up the chain and no-one has wanted to stray outside their little area of the community to learn the more modern ways.  In Korea things have been pretty standardised for many years, it's the rest of the world that does it their own quirky ways* - it's not Korea/Kukkiwon changing it all the time.  It's also definitely not restricted to just lower dans!
> 
> Take it from someone who knows, my local instructor was like that (I managed to change his mind about 5 years ago, but he passed away 2 years afterwards).
> 
> * This was very obvious when I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in 2013, and I'm sure @Jaeimseu would agree as he was there too...



Searching for 'Taeguek' (sic) on youtube finds a number of horrors.


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## TrueJim (Jul 13, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Searching for 'Taeguek' (sic) on youtube finds a number of horrors.



As I was building the wiki, for each taekwondo form (all styles) my goal was to find:

One good video (meaning both a good performance, and good video quality)
One good diagram
One good set of instructions
It's remarkable how hard this was to accomplish. In many cases I was not able to find all three. YouTube is indeed filled with horrors!


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## Metal (Jul 13, 2015)

andyjeffries said:


> I have the book "Poomse" from the WTF published in 1975, if no one has anything older...  I can have a look tonight if it helps?



I've got that book, too. And while there are a few errors in there, the kihaps are where they're nowadays.

It's interesting to compare it to today's standard though. Like the use of Pyeonhi Seogi instead of Naranhi Seogi, the second Yeop Chagi of the Kodeup Yeop Chagi in Koryo being a Momtong Yeop Chagi back in the day and stuff like that.


I also learned Taegeuk 5 with a Kihap when performing the backfist and it took me a while to stop doing it. That was back in the late 80s/early 90s. Nowadays I still see clubs doing that. Actually I still have the Poomse book which was written by my instructor's instructor and just checked it out.

To me it seems as if it's just some interpretation of someone who taught Poomse to European instuctors in the 80s.


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