# At least 20 dead in campus shootings



## Ping898 (Apr 16, 2007)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html



> The Virginia Tech police chief said at least 20 people were killed in twin shootings on the Blacksburg campus Monday morning.
> "Some victims were shot in a classroom," Chief Wendell Flinchum said, adding that the gunman was dead.
> "Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university President Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."
> The attacks mark the worst school shooting incident since 1999 when Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris killed 12 students and a teacher before killing themselves at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado


 
I have at least one coworker whose son is in lockdown in one of the class rooms....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2007)

This is very, very, sad.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 16, 2007)

It is indeed a tragedy.  There really is nothing more to be said at this time - speculation as to causes and reasons will no doubt surface later but for now all we should do is mourn the loss of life.

All that potential snuffed out .


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

God be with those poor souls, and may the individual responsible rot in Hell.  

Unfortunately, there was nothing that the students could really do.  Everyone's packed in the same area, few escape routes, and what few there were, weren't accessible.


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## terryl965 (Apr 16, 2007)

It is a sad sad day for all that is involved in my prayers go out for them all.


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## exile (Apr 16, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> God be with those poor souls, and may the individual responsible rot in Hell.
> 
> Unfortunately, there was nothing that the students could really do.  Everyone's packed in the same area, few escape routes, and what few there were, weren't accessible.



Amen to all of that. 

The vulnerablity of people on university campuses is, for the reasons Grenadier has pointed out, _major_. I remember that guy... somebody-Watson?... killing 10 or so people just shooting from the roof of one of the campus buildings at the University of Texas sometime in the '60s, I think it was, along with all of those women killed by that loathsome character at the University of Montreal in the 80s, trapped in their classroom, with him and a couple of rifles between them and the door. People on these campuses are sitting ducks: a single lecture hall can hold several hundred people, many of the far away from an exit, and it's even worse in dorm buildings.

These large public universities with huge enrollments... all it takes is one nutcase out of tens of thousands.


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

exile said:


> I remember that guy... somebody-Watson?... killing 10 or so people just shooting from the roof of one of the campus buildings at the University of Texas sometime in the '60s


 
Charles Whitman, the tower sniper.  

That event showed, where armed civilians can be of a great help to the police.  It was the fact that there were several armed civilians shooting back at Whitman that kept him distracted long enough for Officers Martinez and McCoy to take him by surprise by sneaking up on him.  


I just wish that some of the poor souls at VTech had a chance to fight back.  There are close to 30,000 laws on the books, regarding firearms, and not one of them was of any help.  The one that could have been of some help never made it out of of the House.  

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658



> A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.
> 
> House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.
> 
> *Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated.* "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

Death toll is now over 30, with almost 30 injured.  I'm more inclined to believe that this madman was using a long gun.  

Some of the VTech students' blogs state that the murderer had chained up the doors, as to prevent escape.


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## Ping898 (Apr 16, 2007)

One thing to note is there were actually two different shootings, one in a dorm in the morning and I think that gunman was caught and one in an engineering building later in the morning by a gunman who I think suicided


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## morph4me (Apr 16, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> It is a sad sad day for all that is involved in my prayers go out for them all.


 
As do mine, and for the families :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 16, 2007)

exile said:


> Amen to all of that.
> 
> The vulnerablity of people on university campuses is, for the reasons Grenadier has pointed out, _major_. I remember that guy... somebody-Watson?... killing 10 or so people just shooting from the roof of one of the campus buildings at the University of Texas sometime in the '60s, I think it was, along with all of those women killed by that loathsome character at the University of Montreal in the 80s, trapped in their classroom, with him and a couple of rifles between them and the door. People on these campuses are sitting ducks: a single lecture hall can hold several hundred people, many of the far away from an exit, and it's even worse in dorm buildings.
> 
> These large public universities with huge enrollments... all it takes is one nutcase out of tens of thousands.


 
State University of New York at Albany had a student hold a lecture hall hostage with a rifle a few years ago. If I remember correctly at least one student was shot but not killed and I do not remember if the gunman was taken alive or not. 

What happened today is a tragedy and that is all I can say at the moment


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## JBrainard (Apr 16, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Charles Whitman, the tower sniper.
> 
> That event showed, where armed civilians can be of a great help to the police. It was the fact that there were several armed civilians shooting back at Whitman that kept him distracted long enough for Officers Martinez and McCoy to take him by surprise by sneaking up on him.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting view on the matter. I am very much pro-gun ownership but there are limits. Take what exile said:



exile said:


> These large public universities with huge enrollments... all it takes is one nutcase out of tens of thousands.


 
Yep, tens of thousands. Do any of you remember college? Remember how down right stupid many of the people you went to school with were? Yes, in this very specific case, it would have been good if a student had a firearm. The other 99.99% of the time, a dumb *** kid with a gun, in an environment where there is a lot of drinking and machismo posturing, has a lot more chance of hurting himself or someone else with a gun than being a hero.
My two cents. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

Ping898 said:


> One thing to note is there were actually two different shootings, one in a dorm in the morning and I think that gunman was caught and one in an engineering building later in the morning by a gunman who I think suicided


 

Why they didn't cancel the classes after the first incident is still a mystery.


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> Yep, tens of thousands. Do any of you remember college? Remember how down right stupid many of the people you went to school with were? Yes, in this very specific case, it would have been good if a student had a firearm. The other 99.99% of the time, a dumb *** kid with a gun, in an environment where there is a lot of drinking and machismo posturing, has a lot more chance of hurting himself or someone else with a gun than being a hero.
> My two cents. Nothing more, nothing less.


 
It wouldn't have to be a student, it could have been a professor, a researcher, or even a janitor, who could have intervened.  

Those who go through the process of obtaining a concealed carry permit aren't the problem.  The people who do get such permits, are usually of a much higher standard than your average everyday person, in terms of taking life seriously.


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## Ping898 (Apr 16, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Why they didn't cancel the classes after the first incident is still a mystery.


 

Actually some of the students are asking the same questions....somehow I see lawsuits coming from this because classes weren't cancelled and it turns out that it wasn't two gunman but rather the same gunman twice...


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## Lisa (Apr 16, 2007)

I have been glued to my TV set since I read this...

I wish I had something to add, I am just choked up and on the verge of tears.  Those poor students/teachers, etc.  Those poor families of the victems.

Such a tragedy.


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## JBrainard (Apr 16, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> It wouldn't have to be a student, it could have been a professor, a researcher, or even a janitor, who could have intervened.
> 
> Those who go through the process of obtaining a concealed carry permit aren't the problem. The people who do get such permits, are usually of a much higher standard than your average everyday person, in terms of taking life seriously.


 
Valid point. On the flip side, I personally know a complete idiot who got his concealed weapons permit. :idunno: 
Truth be told, I really don't know where the line should be drawn.


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## theletch1 (Apr 16, 2007)

I'm in Roanoke.  About 30 minutes north of Va Tech.  One of the I-kyu students in my dojo is a student there.  I've spoken with him this afternoon and he is alright but emotionally shaken as would be expected.  While discussing this incident with a co-worker after returning from my run it finally hit me just how young my class mate is.  My co-worker and I are both vets.  We both saw horrible things at 20 yrs old...the same age as my dojo mate.  The difference is we signed up for the military and has some expectation of seeing these things.  Going to college does not carry this expectation and coming as such an unexpected incident will be even harder for these students to deal with.

This is the second shooting incident on the VT campus in this school year alone.  The first day of class, in august of '06 and escaped inmate from the local jail shot and killed multiple people in and around the campus.  Now this.  

The news just reported that police have recovered two 9MM handguns which they believe were used in the attack.


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## Ping898 (Apr 16, 2007)

the thing I hate most when the gunman dies if you never have the opportunity to find out why he did this.  All you can really do is speculate and many times that isn't enough...and in my opinion that often makes finding closure that much harder...


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## exile (Apr 16, 2007)

sigh... it's up to thirty-one dead now. They could have been your kids, my kid in a few years, our brother or sister, parter, best friend... 

... it's just too big and dark to comprehend.


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## Monadnock (Apr 16, 2007)

CNN is calling this the deadliest mass shooting in US history.

32 people have been counted, with almost as many wounded.


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## Carol (Apr 16, 2007)

Ping898 said:


> Actually some of the students are asking the same questions....somehow I see lawsuits coming from this because classes weren't cancelled and it turns out that it wasn't two gunman but rather the same gunman twice...



There dang well should be lawsuits, IMO.  Bloody ridiculous why they did not cancel classes.   My prayers for everyone affected by this tragedy.  :asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2007)

According to all accounts there was just one gunman and he apparently started shooting at the dorm then ran to the lecture hall and started shooting again.  This all probably occured within a short time frame.

Current count of people who lost their lives is 32.  Let us all hope that it does not rise anymore. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





What truly is unfortunate is that it is so very, very hard to stop anything like this from happening.  So many variables that civilians and law enforcement sometimes need a little luck in this type of situation. 

My children's school just recently went to a buzzer/camera system for admittance into the school.  I feel this is definately a good step in the right direction but I am under *no illusion* that a predator cannot gain entrance and commit some horrible act.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 16, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> CNN is calling this the deadliest mass shooting in US history.
> 32 people have been counted, with almost as many wounded.



The year is still young. 


I saw this story first whist having lunch with my parents and cried in my heart for the victims and their familes. 

Later thoughts led to thinking that those two *******s now just made it THAT much harder to buy or carry a gun. Anti-gun activists are going to have a heyday with this incident tragic as it is. 

Classes should've been suspended but it's probable that the second shooting occurred shortly thereafter the first. Full details of the incident have yet come to light. Will we get the TRUTH?? I wonder. 

Charles Whitman was indeed the name of the guy who sniped students/faculty at the University of Texas. He killed his parents earlier that morning before going to school and climbing the tower. It was noted (25 years later via FOIA) that he was whizzing around (mentally) on a type of anti-depressant. Such may be the same case here... just my first speculation of what might have caused it. 

Guess we'll know more tomorrow and the rest of the week as further details come to light. 

My prayers to the families of the dead and injured.


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2007)

I don't know what to say, it's beyond belief. These deaths diminish all of us, the world is a darker place. My thoughts and prayers are with everyone concerned.


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## Ninjamom (Apr 16, 2007)

I cannot even begin to imagine what the families of those students are going through.  My thoughts and prayers are with them.


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Classes should've been suspended but it's probable that the second shooting occurred shortly thereafter the first. Full details of the incident have yet come to light. Will we get the TRUTH?? I wonder.


 
Given the timeline, the second shooting happened a full two hours after the first.  

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-16-virginia-tech_N.htm

No reason given on this.  All there are, have been a few speculations (disgruntled student, guy lost his girlfriend, etc), but nothing concrete.


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2007)

Does anyone know if there's somewhere people over here for example can leave our condolences so that people could know we are thinking of them?


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## Grenadier (Apr 16, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Does anyone know if there's somewhere people over here for example can leave our condolences so that people could know we are thinking of them?


 
Best I can find is the gathering:

http://www.vt.edu/tragedy/


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## Carol (Apr 16, 2007)

I just listened to interviews on WRKO radio (Boston).  

The story put forth is that it was believed that the initial slayings were seen to have "only" been matters of domestic violence and the police had received reports that the murderer was leaving the state. 

When the Blacksburg police chief was pressed as to how he got this information, he said nothing.  When asked what they Blacksburg police intended to do to track down the murderer that was allegedly leaving the state, he said nothing. When the college president was pressed as to why the initial slayings were deemed inconsequential in closing the school, he said nothing.

These murders....and the lack of action....are an absolute atrocity.   

There are now 33 dead in Blacksburg with another 20 hospitalized for gunshot wounds.


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## jetboatdeath (Apr 16, 2007)

I understand this is a great tragedy and hind site is always 20/20 but we have all unfortunately heard of this before. It has happened in an Amish community so we know that it can happen anywhere. We have knowledge of this and yet it goes unused. And yes it is easy to say what I would do in the situation not being there. Why did no one charge this guy? Why did no one do anything? Some reports said two students blocked the door to keep him from entering again; they did something and saved the rest of the people in the room. There are two options, one every one in the room gets shot. Two 10 people charge the guy and sadly 2-3 will get killed but it is still better odds than just sitting there and letting him fire away. Call me cold or callous but if I ever find myself in this situation I can only hope some one has my back because I will be charging the gunman. 

God be with the innocent that fell today.


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## Ninjamom (Apr 16, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Does anyone know if there's somewhere people over here for example can leave our condolences so that people could know we are thinking of them?


 
I've done some searching online. Maybe there is something we all can do, as a community.

Here is a list of all registered student organizations on the campus of VPI, Blacksburg. I'm sure we can each find one student organization that seems to fit in with our personal interests. Selecting an organization will bring up the contact information for that group, including the email addresses of the club officers and the club webpage, if it has one. If you are adventurous and so inclined, why not email a word of encouragement and support to someone with a similar interest as yours?

I have found a (very) few of these organizations that have guestbooks or forums. The AKDPhi Sorority (College Asian Students) has a guestbook at their website here. The Wesley Foundation (a Methodist campus group open to all denominations/pursuasions) has a forum at their website that can be joined instantly; with a thread started specifically to encourage and remind students that people all over the world are praying for them (under the 'Announcements' subforum). These would be good places to drop a quick word of condolence or encouragement.

The bulk of the shootings occurred inside the Norris Hall. The Grad Students Committee for Engineering (Norris Hall) can be reached by email at gradcomm@vt.edu .

There are also student organizations at the campus (with webpages with contact information) for students practicing Wushu, Tae Kwon Do, and with the Bujinkan. 

I do not think it would be inappropriate for anyone on this forum to send a word of encoruagment to members of any of these organizations.


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## exile (Apr 16, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Does anyone know if there's somewhere people over here for example can leave our condolences so that people could know we are thinking of them?





Ninjamom said:


> I've done some searching online. Maybe there is something we all can do, as a community...I do not think it would be inappropriate for anyone on this forum to send a word of encoruagment to members of any of these organizations.



You two have gotten right to the heart of things, haven't you... this is the best we can do now, and it might do some good for someone there to know that people elsewhere feel solidarity with them. Thanks for this info, Ninjamom. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 :asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 16, 2007)

What a sad event.


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2007)

exile said:


> You two have gotten right to the heart of things, haven't you... this is the best we can do now, and it might do some good for someone there to know that people elsewhere feel solidarity with them. Thanks for this info, Ninjamom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks from me too Ninjamom. I don't think there's anything that will help immediately but over the coming months even years it may help to know that people are with the friends and relatives.
It may help the rest of us try to make some sense of what is basically a senseless act. Already the recriminations are starting, the students and staff who survived will be feeling lucky they did but also bad that they did, they don't need to be made to feel worse by implications they should have done something to stop the shooter.
On MartialTalk perhaps we are different in that we think about violence and attacks more than others. We can't forget that the students at least are children when it comes down to it. One American 'commentator' said on the BBC last night that the other students had been allowed to carry guns one of them could have shot the shooter.


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## Ping898 (Apr 17, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> One American 'commentator' said on the BBC last night that the other students had been allowed to carry guns one of them could have shot the shooter.


 
I don't know that that is the answer though...lord knows I would have been more afraid of getting shot by some of the idiots I went to school with if they were armed more so than some student with a vendetta or whatever...and I went to school in downtown Newark, NJ, not exactly the safest place to begin with


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## MBuzzy (Apr 17, 2007)

I can't believe this could happen.  I went to Tech and you never imagine something like this can happen at your school.  

I heard that students were jumping from windows to avoid the shooter.  I still know many people at Tech, so I am waiting for the list of names....but praying for everyone at the same time.


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> One American 'commentator' said on the BBC last night that the other students had been allowed to carry guns one of them could have shot the shooter.


 
And he was right.  

That's what helped save lives in the University of Texas tragedy, when Charles Whitman started shooting people.  It was the fact that several students had their firearms with them, and were able to keep Whitman pinned down by shooting back, that allowed the police officers to sneak up on Whitman and take him out.  

Any law enforcement officer familiar with the case and can see with an open mind will tell you the same thing.


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2007)

Thanks Ninjamom.  I'll have some $$ on the way.


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## Jonathan (Apr 17, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> And he was right.
> 
> That's what helped save lives in the University of Texas tragedy, when Charles Whitman started shooting people. It was the fact that several students had their firearms with them, and were able to keep Whitman pinned down by shooting back, that allowed the police officers to sneak up on Whitman and take him out.
> 
> Any law enforcement officer familiar with the case and can see with an open mind will tell you the same thing.


 
Given the state of today's social mindset... would you _really_ trust most people with the responsible use of a handgun?

My wife and I have a couple Hokie friends... luckily, they are okay.  3/4 of my office are former Tech students... it was a hard day, yesterday.


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## MSTCNC (Apr 17, 2007)

An old friend from my Buj days in Baltimore runs the program at VTech...

I'll send an email to Karl and see what he says about his students, how to help, etc...

More later...

Andrew


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2007)

Jonathan said:


> Given the state of today's social mindset... would you _really_ trust most people with the responsible use of a handgun?


 
If they have passed the course, passed the background checks, and possess all proper permits, then I have no qualms about that.  They are no more likely to go around shooting people, than your average car driver would go around trying to run over people.


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## MSTCNC (Apr 17, 2007)

Although I haven't heard back from Karl as of yet... I did just hear back from Ken Alenxander... one of the V-Tech Buj members...



> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Goodwin
> To: nethken@vt.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:07 AM
> ...





> From:	"Ken Alexander" <nethken@vt.edu>
> To:	"Andrew Goodwin" <lngdrnkofsilence@yahoo.com>
> Subject:	Re: Shidoshi Kock, The Buj, V-Tech, & prayers
> Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:51:10 -0400
> ...


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## crushing (Apr 17, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Why they didn't cancel the classes after the first incident is still a mystery.


 
I've heard several times now that law enforcement thought the first shooting was thought to be an isolated incident specific to those two people with the perpetrator long gone.


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2007)

To most non Americans the carrying of guns is sheer madness and I'm afraid we will never understand it. Even though gun crime among young gang members is increasing here in certain places.... in imitation of the American gun/gang scene, there has been no call here for us all to be armed.


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> To most non Americans the carrying of guns is sheer madness and I'm afraid we will never understand it. Even though gun crime among young gang members is increasing here in certain places.... in imitation of the American gun/gang scene, there has been no call here for us all to be armed.


 
And you should be thankful that the British culture is what it is.  

It's not a gun issue.  It's always going to be a cultural issue, and to a lesser extent, an individual issue (which can be directly attributed to the culture).


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> If they have passed the course, passed the background checks, and possess all proper permits, then I have no qualms about that.  They are no more likely to go around shooting people, than your average car driver would go around trying to run over people.



I totally agree!  I am with you on this Grenadier.


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2007)

On another note, this was not the deadliest school massacre of all time.  That awful "title" goes to the incident that happened in Bath, Michigan.  

Just to show you what some people are capable of doing with commonly-available materials (and not a single firearm used):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

It's scary that individuals like Andrew Kehoe can do this.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 17, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> On another note, this was not the deadliest school massacre of all time.  That awful "title" goes to the incident that happened in Bath, Michigan.
> 
> Just to show you what some people are capable of doing with commonly-available materials (and not a single firearm used):
> 
> ...



_No_, it was the deadliest use of a *gun* on a school campus... The Bath tragedy was done with dynamite. Of course that's splitting hairs. Innocent students were killed at both. 
The difference is that with the Bath incident we at least know the reason why... with this one at VT... unless they find someone who talked to the shooter or find his personal writings or whatever... we may never know why. 

Talking to someone at work today about it they said: "...that was a sad way to show the world you're really crazy..." I replied, "no, that was a sad way to show determination."


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## Jonathan (Apr 17, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> If they have passed the course, passed the background checks, and possess all proper permits, then I have no qualms about that. They are no more likely to go around shooting people, than your average car driver would go around trying to run over people.


 
Sorry, I didn't mean that they'd go on rampages- but rather, that fire discipline would have to be exercised.

Consider the notion that, say, two students are armed.  Gunman starts his spree.  First student responds, firing on the gunman.  Second student, from another classroom, acting on limited info, fires on the first student.

The problem with the idea isn't the people specifically, not their training- but that they probably aren't trained to respond to a group incident.  That's what I meant by responsible.  My fear would be that there'd be a 'me vs. them' mentality, where a knee-jerk reaction only brings more sorrow.


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## CoryKS (Apr 17, 2007)

Michelle Malkin is reporting (she won't link to their site) that the Phelps Klan is planning to protest the funerals of the shooting victims.  Vile bastards.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I just listened to interviews on WRKO radio (Boston).
> 
> The story put forth is that it was believed that the initial slayings were seen to have "only" been matters of domestic violence and the police had received reports that the murderer was leaving the state.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not quite sure what you expected a police chief, especially if it was the city of Blacksburg's chief, and not the chief of the campus police, to say regarding the sources of information or process of an active and on-going investigation.  And this is still an active and on-going investigation, and will be for some days yet to come.  As a general rule, details about the sources wouldn't be publicized for very important reasons, like protecting witnesses and avoiding contaminating the pool of witnesses.  I spent more than enough time a few years ago chasing phantom white trucks in the DC area...

As to the decision on classes... There's a lot to look at.  At the time of the first shooting, many students would already be on their way to class, or even in the buildings already; many of those students also live off campus, and the school admittedly lacks a very effective manner of notifying students.  The initial evaluation by the officers who responded to the scene apparently led them to believe that it was not the precursor of a major event; I don't know what they found or didn't find there.  I trust that everyone believes that every effort to prevent the second phase of this would have been taken had they had any practical warning ("disturbing" class writings that are being reported are not necessarily practical warnings; the police may not have had the ability to link the two deaths in the dorm to that student's writings -- especially if they were unaware of them!).  The administration and the police, in their best reading of the facts at hand at the time, decided the safest course (for numerous reasons) was to allow class to go on as scheduled.  Sadly, I'm confident that had they cancelled classes, the shooter would have likely found another location...  and probably somewhere that the students, freed from class, were congretating.



Tez3 said:


> To most non Americans the carrying of guns is sheer madness and I'm afraid we will never understand it. Even though gun crime among young gang members is increasing here in certain places.... in imitation of the American gun/gang scene, there has been no call here for us all to be armed.


 


Grenadier said:


> And you should be thankful that the British culture is what it is.
> 
> It's not a gun issue. It's always going to be a cultural issue, and to a lesser extent, an individual issue (which can be directly attributed to the culture).


 
Guns are, for good or ill, part of the US culture.  In fact, I'd even be willing to say they're part of the American culture.  The use is one of them most diverse collections of differing cultures to be found anywhere -- and as a general rule, they get along.  Britian (and most of Europe) is much, much more homogenous.  

The US is also a much less regulated society than many other countries -- with much stronger protections for the individual against governmental intrusion.  Even when that intrusion is at least well intentioned, and possibly for the best benefit of all.

And -- the simple fact is that gun bans here have not worked.  It's quite difficult to own a pistol in NYC -- yet lots of people get shot there.  Until recently, almost all firearms were prohibited in DC.  Lots and lots of folks still managed to shoot each other...

But this is not really a case of "guns being violent."  A gun is, in and of itself, simply an object.  If I leave my gun on the table -- it's not going to kill anyone.  Someone has to pick it up, and pull the trigger.  This is clearly a case of a very violent individual, who made a series of choices to do harm to those around him.  Blaming this incident on guns is as wrong as it is to blame everyone who ran, rather than attacking the shooter, or the school for not closing.  Had he been unable to easily obtain a gun -- this guy would almost certainly have found some other way to express the violence in his soul.  Depending on how he did this -- it might have been even more tragic; we can't simply assume he would have gone wild with a baseball bat without at least admitting the possibility of mass poisinings, bombings or even a simple vehicular rampage across an occupied picnic or playing field.


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Michelle Malkin is reporting (she won't link to their site) that the Phelps Klan is planning to protest the funerals of the shooting victims. Vile bastards.


 
Ah, I saw a documentary about this lot with Louis Theroux, a truly amazing bunch of sick moronic weirdos. Much as I champion free speech, they really make me wonder why I bother! I hope somehow they are stopped somehow, I'd look the other way for sure!


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## CoryKS (Apr 17, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, I saw a documentary about this lot with Louis Theroux, a truly amazing bunch of sick moronic weirdos. Much as I champion free speech, they really make me wonder why I bother! I hope somehow they are stopped somehow, I'd look the other way for sure!


 
I truly hope that Kansas never enacts a ban against funeral protests.  Ol' Phred can't live forever, and I suspect that the warped son of a ***** will get quite a turnout at his own funeral.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 17, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I totally agree! I am with you on this Grenadier.


  There are no back ground checks at gun shows.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 17, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> On another note, this was not the deadliest school massacre of all time. That awful "title" goes to the incident that happened in Bath, Michigan.
> 
> Just to show you what some people are capable of doing with commonly-available materials (and not a single firearm used):
> 
> ...


The victim mentality strikes again.
Sean


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## jetboatdeath (Apr 17, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> There are no back ground checks at gun shows.
> Sean


There is in Illinois.


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## Jonathan (Apr 18, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Michelle Malkin is reporting (she won't link to their site) that the Phelps Klan is planning to protest the funerals of the shooting victims. Vile bastards.


 
Oh, yeah, and Jack Thompson and Dr. Phil are using this opportunity to turn this into some anti-video game crusade.

Not that ol' Jackie boy needed a reason or anything.


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## Grenadier (Apr 18, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> There are no back ground checks at gun shows.
> Sean


 
This is not correct.  

Most people selling firearms at gun shows are FFL holders, and by law, must conduct the standard NICS checks on all firearms purchases.  

The only ones who are exempt from the background checks, are individuals making private sales.  Such individuals are but a very small percentage of those making sales at gun shows, and when it comes down to it, it's up to the individual to be sure of the person to whom he is selling the firearm.


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## Ping898 (Apr 18, 2007)

For those wishing to make donations to help out VTech in the aftermath of this tragedy, they have created the Hokie Spirit Memorial fund


The fund has been established to cover expenses including but not limited to:

Grief counseling
Memorials
Communication expenses
Comfort expenses
Incidental needs
http://www.vt.edu/tragedy/memorial_fund.php


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2007)

The shooter apparently sent a film to NBC 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 18, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> The shooter apparently sent a film to NBC
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting


        Good argument for never releasing the killer's name.


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## Ping898 (Apr 19, 2007)

Those killed will get degrees...



> On Thursday, university officials announced that Cho's victims would be awarded their degrees posthumously during commencement.


 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting


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