# Instructors, how do you defend against Sensei Seths side kick criticism?



## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

I happen to agree with him that the way we are taught side kicks in intermediate patterns are illogical.


The knee should not take a two directional route. This makes no sense. Advanced students obviously move freely and chamber whichever way they want, but this pathway remains in the patterns .....

Interestingly, I got flamed positing a side kick clip doing exactly what Sensei Seth is advocating...

I would like to hear how TKD instructors on this board defend the formal side kick chamber.

 Please watch 2:43






then for a fuller analysis (with humor thrown in)

here
...


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Interestingly, I got flamed positing a side kick clip doing exactly what Sensei Seth is advocating


Which side kick clip did you post?


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 6, 2021)

Personally I don't.  

Any more than I would waste any more time with your threads.  

You really need to get a life. 

Don't you have anything worthwhile to talk to other people about?  How wonderful if you could have adult conversations where useful information was exchanged.

Anyway, the best to you.


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

One theory I have is that we do the up-chamber for bending ready stance in order for the student to work on balance, then when they apply it freely, the up chamber is removed.


Maybe that's what the original intention was?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 6, 2021)

SIDEKICKS DONT WORK!


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I happen to agree with him that the way we are taught side kicks in intermediate patterns are illogical.
> 
> 
> The knee should not take a two directional route. This makes no sense. Advanced students obviously move freely and chamber whichever way they want, but this pathway remains in the patterns .....
> ...



Is it a problem with the technique or his application of it?

My son's instructor's instructor was a professor in kinesiology and 
wrote a dissertation about maximixing power and speed using karate techniques.  His data supported the chamber.

So in the end, it's just different opinions.


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## Buka (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Is it a problem with the technique or his application of it?
> 
> My son's instructor's instructor was a professor in kinesiology and
> wrote a dissertation about maximixing power and speed using karate techniques.  His data supported the chamber.
> ...



That must have been a great read.

All my advanced black belts sidekick a little differently than each other. But everyone of them can nail just about anybody with a sidekick.


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Is it a problem with the technique or his application of it?
> .



Sensei Seth claims that the technique itself makes no sense because you are traveling up with the knee and then side ways, instead of linear right away. I first thought he was just trolling but he is for real. He actually talked about it with Stephen Thompson, and Thompson agrees with him.

The thought did cross my mind doing forms that it feels artificial... and of course when I side kick by pure instinct, I do not kick like that.


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Sensei Seth claims that the technique in itself makes no sense because you are traveling up with the knee and then side ways, instead of sideways right away.



Clambering your kick allows you to load your hips and create hip rotation to drive you forward increasing acceleration and power.

Much like how pitchers will bring their leg up to a chambered position and many hitters will load their swing with a chambered leg before swinging....to create power and explosion through hip rotation.

So I don't see how it doesn't make sense.  It does take some amount of development  because you have to develop a certain amount of strength and flexibility in your hips.

Since pitchers don't have to worry about how long it takes to chamber....they will actually cross the foot of their chambered leg past their rear leg to create more drive via more hip rotation.


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## paitingman (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> One theory I have is that we do the up-chamber for bending ready stance in order for the student to work on balance, then when they apply it freely, the up chamber is removed.
> 
> 
> Maybe that's what the original intention was?


My explanation would be something like this^^
Traditional vertical chamber does not lend itself to throwing side kick imo. There's definitely an adjustment you must make if you want to throw side kick from there, but maybe that was the point. Training to throw from an extreme position that does not lend itself to side kick and students would develop an understanding of the necessary adjustment and would help you throw it from various angles and positions.

You definitely wouldn't throw it like this in application. Naturally, I think most use whatever chamber they need that requires the least adjustment and just lets you get the kick off.


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

paitingman said:


> My explanation would be something like this^^
> Traditional vertical chamber does not lend itself to throwing side kick imo. There's definitely an adjustment you must make if you want to throw side kick from there, but maybe that was the point. Training to throw from an extreme position that does not lend itself to side kick and students would develop an understanding of the necessary adjustment and would help you throw it from various angles and positions.
> 
> You definitely wouldn't throw it like this in application. Naturally, I think most use whatever chamber they need that requires the least adjustment and just lets you get the kick off.



Yeah so it's a bit trollish for him to say that TaeKwonDo guys kick like that, like it's a rule. It's a form move, nothing else.

He did TKD a while so he should know better


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

He states the vertical position is to allow higher kicks and the horizontal position gives more pushing power with your butt muscles.

It think this is the misunderstanding of the reason and mechanics of the vertical chamber.

The vertical position allows for hip rotation and more acceleration to generate more power at impact.  It requires good mechanics, strength, and hip flexibility but achieves more power.

You might be able to push harder with the horizontal but the vertical position can generate more impact.


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> He states the vertical position is to allow higher kicks and the horizontal position gives more pushing power with your butt muscles.
> 
> It think this is the misunderstanding of the reason and mechanics of the vertical chamber.
> 
> ...



But nobody kicks the vertical way, do they? It's too telegraphed


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> You might be able to push harder with the horizontal but the vertical position can generate more impact.



Scott Adkins disagrees and says that you lose momentum from vertical to horizontal chamber because you are changing direction


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> But nobody kicks the vertical way, do they? It's too telegraphed



No they do.  That is the way my son school teaches and I see it a lot in competition.

When you develop the mechanics, strength and flexibility it's not that telegraphed.  And thrown with a hard forward skip it can be brutal.

I've seen competitors knocked on their but with it.  My son's instructor's broke a guy's arm who tried to block it once in competition.

You can also mix it up.  My son will throw a couple hard sidekicks and then chamber but then come over the top with a jab and straight left hand.  He will also throw a couple sidekicks then throw a hook kick to the head from that chamber.

It's also works well against shotokan fighters that like to blitz in behind the reverse punch if you time it right.


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> No they do.  That is the way my son school teaches and I see it a lot in competition.
> 
> When you develop the mechanics, strength and flexibility it's not that telegraphed.  And thrown with a hard forward skip it can be brutal.
> 
> ...



What about Adkins objection that you lose power/momentum by changing direction from vertical to horizontal?


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> What about Adkins objection that you lose power/momentum by changing direction from vertical to horizontal?



Watch the video again.

He turns his body away from the target first to create the hip rotation.  He is just using a different mechanic to create more hip rotation.

And he even says he makes more into a back kick.


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Watch the video again.
> 
> He turns his body away from the target first to create the hip rotation.  He is just using a different mechanic to create more hip rotation.
> 
> And he even says he makes more into a back kick.



I'm not talking about his kick, I'm talking about his analysis of the kick you argue for.


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I'm not talking about his kick, I'm talking about his analysis of the kick you argue for.



Ok...but he isn't throwing a traditional side kick.  He is throwing more of a hybrid back side kick which allows him to create more power.

You can't generate that hip rotation with a traditional sidekick from a horizontal chamber without that step back into that hybrid back side kick.


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2021)

Again it's different opinions and philosophies and has different pros and cons.

My son's style uses the horizontal chamber side kick for quick light kicks, vertical chamber side kicks for more powerful kicks, and doesn't refer to Adkins kick as a side kick (it is referred to as a back side kick).


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## Acronym (Jan 6, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Ok...but he isn't throwing a traditional side kick.  He is throwing more of a hybrid back side kick which allows him to create more power.
> 
> You can't generate that hip rotation with a traditional sidekick from a horizontal chamber without that step back into that hybrid back side kick.



I know he doesn't even demonstrate it properly but the principle he critizes of switching directions with the chamber is the same as the kick we are discussing. And his point is that you will lose momentum going up and then sideways. So even If the travel path is longer and therefore gives more room for acceleration, it won't happen in practise. But maybe you're right that with enough hip flexibility one need not lose momentum doing the up and turn.


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## CB Jones (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> But maybe you're right that with enough hip flexibility one need not lose momentum doing the up and turn.



I think that might be right. 

Again, my son's instructor's instructor studied karate for 50 years.  Was a professor of kinesiology for 30 years.  During those 30 years they spent alot time studying different power and speed generation methods.

And for the last 10 years I have heard these explanations over and over and over....lol.

But in the end, everyone has different abilities, opinions and philosophies.  So you have to do what works for you.


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## Acronym (Jan 7, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> I think that might be right.
> 
> Again, my son's instructor's instructor studied karate for 50 years.  Was a professor of kinesiology for 30 years.  During those 30 years they spent alot time studying different power and speed generation methods.
> 
> ...



He is biased since Karate is what he is doing.


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## CB Jones (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> He is biased since Karate is what he is doing.



Biased against TKD?  He trained in Korean Karate/TKD.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2021)

Rat said:


> SIDEKICKS DONT WORK!


BOOM! ROASTED!


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> What about Adkins objection that you lose power/momentum by changing direction from vertical to horizontal?


I think I understand the argument (even though I haven't watched the videos), but it's not so much that the kick ITSELF is the changing of direction. The vertical lift is the chambering, then you drive in with the hip, the kick travelling very linearly. There is no question about the power of a side kick to me, have used them very effectively in sparring, and speed is no issue if you train that chamber to be very quick.


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## Acronym (Jan 7, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> I think I understand the argument (even though I haven't watched the videos), but it's not so much that the kick ITSELF is the changing of direction. The vertical lift is the chambering, then you drive in with the hip, the kick travelling very linearly. There is no question about the power of a side kick to me, have used them very effectively in sparring, and speed is no issue if you train that chamber to be very quick.



Well no the kick does factor into it. If the technique is too hard for most people to do at a high level, it's not a very practical technique. Sensei Seth and Adkins are probably arguing that the  range of motion and strength required to not lose steam doing the vertical to horizontal way is beyond most peoples capacities.


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## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> I think I understand the argument (even though I haven't watched the videos), but it's not so much that the kick ITSELF is the changing of direction. The vertical lift is the chambering, then you drive in with the hip, the kick travelling very linearly. There is no question about the power of a side kick to me, have used them very effectively in sparring, and speed is no issue if you train that chamber to be very quick.


Agree. I would add that it is not common to kick to the side like in the video. For demonstration purposes I suppose but I have never actively seen that kick practiced. It should be an easier kick to perform because there is Much less pivot involved.
I also agree that there are several mechanical motions going on at the same time. I do not think this is being fully appreciated.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Well no the kick does factor into it. If the technique is too hard for most people to do at a high level, it's not a very practical technique. Sensei Seth and Adkins are probably arguing that the  range of motion and strength required to not lose steam doing the vertical to horizontal way is beyond most peoples capacities.



.... well then you train it.   ?

All due respect, even a punch you have to train to get it working efficiently and optimally for what you are using it for.

How do you explain me getting countless sidekicks in during sparring then? Against very seasoned sparring partners?

Sure a sidekick requires a few things, so do many different techniques. Some you may use, some you may not.

No I'm saying the vertical lift/chamber doesn't take away from the kick due to some change in momentum, it's just working on control of the body. I mean, you can kick how you'd like, it's not like you're forced to do a sidekick in sparring...

There are always people that will say "NO, do NOT punch in a fight!!!" and others, "NO, you should ONLY punch in a fight!!!"


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## Acronym (Jan 7, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> .... well then you train it.   ?
> 
> All due respect, even a punch you have to train to get it working efficiently and optimally for what you are using it for.
> 
> ...



They were arguing in terms of power, not landing the kick


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2021)

Acronym said:


> They were arguing in terms of power, not landing the kick


Ahh ok, it is pleeeenty powerful


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 7, 2021)

I think everyone is just over thinking this.  For me it's simple.  There are 2 ways to do a side kick.  Horizontal and Vertical Chamber.  The 2 different ways allow you to do other things such as chain combos.   I can have my right leg forward, then turn and do a side kick with a horizontal chamber.  In that scenario the Vertical chamber is not practical nor efficient.   I can also use a high chamber used as if I'm going to to a front kick, but then turn into to the side kick.

The high chamber helps to sell the front kick, but also provides a "ready state" for the side kick.  Trying to make things "only one way or the other" will make your martial arts very weak.


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## paitingman (Jan 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think everyone is just over thinking this.  For me it's simple.  There are 2 ways to do a side kick.  Horizontal and Vertical Chamber.  The 2 different ways allow you to do other things such as chain combos.   I can have my right leg forward, then turn and do a side kick with a horizontal chamber.  In that scenario the Vertical chamber is not practical nor efficient.   I can also use a high chamber used as if I'm going to to a front kick, but then turn into to the side kick.
> 
> The high chamber helps to sell the front kick, but also provides a "ready state" for the side kick.  Trying to make things "only one way or the other" will make your martial arts very weak.


Exactly. Just focusing on the video and the way the person threw the kick in the video sort of threw me off.
Actually getting up and trying it, more vertical or horizontal chamber was mainly dependant on where the target was relative to the way I was standing/positioned. Duh! lol

I don't really pay much real attention to these things anymore, but it's nice to have threads like this make me realize some of the forgotten details of what I'm doing.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2021)

paitingman said:


> Exactly. Just focusing on the video and the way the person threw the kick in the video sort of threw me off.
> Actually getting up and trying it, more vertical or horizontal chamber was mainly dependant on where the target was relative to the way I was standing/positioned. Duh! lol


Which is basically what he says in the video. He doesn't say one is better than the other, just what he prefers. And (IIRC) he stated exactly that if you want to kick higher, you'll need a more vertical chamber.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Is it a problem with the technique or his application of it?
> 
> My son's instructor's instructor was a professor in kinesiology and
> wrote a dissertation about maximixing power and speed using karate techniques.  His data supported the chamber.
> ...


Any chance you've got a link to that dissertation somewhere?


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## andyjeffries (Jan 8, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I happen to agree with him that the way we are taught side kicks in intermediate patterns are illogical.
> 
> The knee should not take a two directional route. This makes no sense. Advanced students obviously move freely and chamber whichever way they want, but this pathway remains in the patterns .....



I wouldn't defend his opinion. Admittedly I only watched for a minute or so at the point you stated, but I don't teach people to do the first vertical chamber, we only go straight to a horizontal chamber. On the Kukkiwon master instructor and poom/dan examiner course, they didn't have anyone doing that first. It's definitely not "in the patterns", at least the Kukkiwon ones as officially defined by them.

I think the problem is that the Kukkiwon instructors advocate teaching it that way to beginners. Rather than teaching to chamber straight to horizontal they say 1) turn and lift knee, 2) turn the hip so it's horizontal, 3) kick out. But almost NONE of them actually do it that way. Unfortunately then international instructors have misunderstood that to be correct performance, rather than "a starter for 10, for someone who's a complete beginner".

I've done video analysis of high level Kukkiwon martial artists (grandmasters and athletes) and almost none of them do it like that (I know one that does). So I don't defend his opinion, I believe he's absolutely right.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 8, 2021)

Acronym said:


> What about Adkins objection that you lose power/momentum by changing direction from vertical to horizontal?



I completely agree with him. That short video seemed to be going against chambering completely, I'm OK with the chamber - indeed I feel it's necessary - but it should be a horizontal chamber and should have minimal momentum loss.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which is basically what he says in the video. He doesn't say one is better than the other, just what he prefers. And (IIRC) he stated exactly that if you want to kick higher, you'll need a more vertical chamber.



I completely disagree.

For example, here's a super-short video of a Korean lady demonstrating a vertical sidekick, and the step 1 is a mostly-horizontal chamber.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2021)

Acronym said:


> One theory I have is that we do the up-chamber for bending ready stance in order for the student to work on balance, then when they apply it freely, the up chamber is removed.
> 
> 
> Maybe that's what the original intention was?


I've long suspected there's much in traditional training that was done for this kind of reason.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree.
> 
> For example, here's a super-short video of a Korean lady demonstrating a vertical sidekick, and the step 1 is a mostly-horizontal chamber.


Fair. Need was the wrong word. In general that is what I've found hold true for me though-if I want a higher kick, a higher/more vertical chamber helps with that. YMMV, particularly in a system more dedicated to kicks and flexibility overall.


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## paitingman (Jan 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Fair. Need was the wrong word. In general that is what I've found hold true for me though-if I want a higher kick, a higher/more vertical chamber helps with that. YMMV, particularly in a system more dedicated to kicks and flexibility overall.


Idk. I still wouldn't call this horizontal chamber. It's more 45, but it's still fairly vertical.
Step one: 45 degree chamber. Step two: keep that chamber and lean back.

I admire the skill in the video, and call me old fashioned, but I'd classify it as more dance move than side kick


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## Acronym (Jan 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Fair. Need was the wrong word. In general that is what I've found hold true for me though-if I want a higher kick, a higher/more vertical chamber helps with that. YMMV, particularly in a system more dedicated to kicks and flexibility overall.



Yes but in the case of a very high, high side kick, you have to chamber it vertically, otherwise you are mostly kicking with your calf because your knee isn't parallell  with the leg.


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## Acronym (Jan 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which is basically what he says in the video. He doesn't say one is better than the other, just what he prefers. And (IIRC) he stated exactly that if you want to kick higher, you'll need a more vertical chamber.



he absolutely states in other videos that the vertical makes little sense to him.


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## Acronym (Jan 8, 2021)

It's a bit strange why he would label it TKD. It seems Karate's basic chamber is the same..


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## dvcochran (Jan 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree.
> 
> For example, here's a super-short video of a Korean lady demonstrating a vertical sidekick, and the step 1 is a mostly-horizontal chamber.


Incredible hip flexibility.
Believe it or not, there was TKD long before WT/Kukkiwon. Citing chapter and verse of one derivative can be misleading. 
I know by WT/Kukki standards that is a side kick. They have morphed over the years since some TKD gravitated towards highlighting the ridiculously high kicks in Poomsae. And the fighting kicks have changed quite a lot. FWIW, I am a Long time TKD guy.
The simplest way I know to describe it is by the main muscle group used. A side kick gets most of it's power from the glutes. A roundhouse gets most of it's power from the quad. The kick in the video uses mostly the quad. So, by your standard it that acceptable?
Regardless, it ends up in a very nice side kick position. Something we would still be critical of.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2021)

Acronym said:


> It's a bit strange why he would label it TKD. It seems Karate's basic chamber is the same..





If the chamber in karate "is the same" as TKD why wouldn't he label it as TKD?
You are posting only to bump up your post count.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 9, 2021)

Rat said:


> SIDEKICKS DONT WORK!


Maybe you suck at side kicks?


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## Acronym (Jan 9, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> If the chamber in karate "is the same" as TKD why wouldn't he label it as TKD?
> You are posting only to bump up your post count.



For the reason that it is not unique to TKD


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 9, 2021)

RTKDCMB said:


> Maybe you suck at side kicks?



You missed the joke.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 9, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I would like to hear how TKD instructors on this board defend the formal side kick chamber.


The side kick after the chamber in that video seems weird to me. The way I was taught was more like this:


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 9, 2021)

Rat said:


> You missed the joke.


I wasn't the only one.


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## Acronym (Jan 9, 2021)

RTKDCMB said:


> The side kick after the chamber in that video seems weird to me. The way I was taught was more like this:



That guy is a nemesis of mine


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2021)

Acronym said:


> For the reason that it is not unique to TKD



If he only trains TKD how would he know that it's used in other styles? He describes what he knows. You on the other hand are nit picking, always a mean trait.


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## Acronym (Jan 9, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> If he only trains TKD how would he know that it's used in other styles? He describes what he knows. You on the other hand are nit picking, always a mean trait.



He doesn't. He is from Kempo karate


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2021)

Acronym said:


> He doesn't. He is from Kempo karate



See, that's your post count up again


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## JP3 (Jan 10, 2021)

A technique is "taught" in a certain way to white belts and other people in the beginner phase a certain way, so they develop certain things from that training which will continue on. Some of those things are "training wheels" so to speak.  Probably necessary in the beginning, to get started... but once a modicum of competency is reached, they can be set aside.  Simplest explanation I can give.  Actually, I thought this would be obvious, but perhaps the schools involved don't ever talk about their actual pedagogy.  In my opinion, that would be a failing in and for the instructors as a group.

"Pedagogy"  --  (noun):  The method and practice of teaching, especially as an academic subject or theoretical concept.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 11, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Incredible hip flexibility.
> Believe it or not, there was TKD long before WT/Kukkiwon. Citing chapter and verse of one derivative can be misleading.



I agree. There was also a network of computers before the internet, but really we currently only discuss modern standards now unless we're talking in a historical context ;-)

However, I was using that video just to demonstrate how Kukkiwon standards are currently a horizontal chamber rather than vertical.



dvcochran said:


> I know by WT/Kukki standards that is a side kick. They have morphed over the years since some TKD gravitated towards highlighting the ridiculously high kicks in Poomsae. And the fighting kicks have changed quite a lot. FWIW, I am a Long time TKD guy.



Don't know how you define "Long time", but I guess I probably am too 

I like to stay "current" with standards, learning from as senior sources as I can to try to truly understand it.



dvcochran said:


> The simplest way I know to describe it is by the main muscle group used. A side kick gets most of it's power from the glutes. A roundhouse gets most of it's power from the quad. The kick in the video uses mostly the quad. So, by your standard it that acceptable?



I personally wouldn't say a side kick gets most of its power from the glutes. I'd say it's a 50:50 quad and glute power delivery. A back kick, hook kick or back hook kick, sure, they're glute-focused.

So by my standards, that is an acceptable kick.

However, as I stated above, I posted it purely to discuss the chamber as it relates to this thread, rather than the end position.



dvcochran said:


> Regardless, it ends up in a very nice side kick position. Something we would still be critical of.



I agree on both points. If I was judging her in competition, I'd mark her down for not being towards a valid target ;-)


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## andyjeffries (Jan 11, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Yes but in the case of a very high, high side kick, you have to chamber it vertically, otherwise you are mostly kicking with your calf because your knee isn't parallell  with the leg.



I disagree, I don't know how much higher you want it, but that lady did a vertical side kick and didn't chamber it vertically.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 11, 2021)

RTKDCMB said:


> The side kick after the chamber in that video seems weird to me. The way I was taught was more like this:



That's definitely not how I was taught and seems weird to me. The only Kukkiwon instructor* I know that kicks or advocates kicking like that is Grandmaster Kang, Ik-pil. He's a very influential grandmaster, very senior, published author on poomsae and a nice guy - I've been to his dojang a couple of times, interviewed him for my YouTube channel, etc. However, he's the only one I've seen that teaches this way over the "Kukkiwon standard" way.

* By Kukkiwon instructor I mean someone paid by the Kukkiwon to teach on official Kukkiwon courses, rather than just a Taekwondo instructor that teaches Kukkiwon Taekwondo.


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## skribs (Jan 11, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> That's definitely not how I was taught and seems weird to me. The only Kukkiwon instructor* I know that kicks or advocates kicking like that is Grandmaster Kang, Ik-pil. He's a very influential grandmaster, very senior, published author on poomsae and a nice guy - I've been to his dojang a couple of times, interviewed him for my YouTube channel, etc. However, he's the only one I've seen that teaches this way over the "Kukkiwon standard" way.
> 
> * By Kukkiwon instructor I mean someone paid by the Kukkiwon to teach on official Kukkiwon courses, rather than just a Taekwondo instructor that teaches Kukkiwon Taekwondo.



That's how I do my side kicks for speed.  Compared to a front kick, it helps get your head out of the way better, and it sets you up to follow up with a turning kick better.  It's not something I was ever taught, though, just something I figured out on my own.


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## J. Pickard (Jan 28, 2021)

I have trained both chamber positions and in watching old videos of sparring during class I realized that I actually use both chambers interchangeably depending on the situation. After reading through this thread I decided to hit the bag a few times with both and quite honestly, if you understand the mechanics of hip rotation, there isnt a difference in power that I could tell. I would say if it works for you and doesnt cause you pain when you do it then it doesnt matter which way you chamber. 

As Richard Chun once told a friend of mine; "Do it the way you were taught but keep an open mind. Just like in life there are few absolutes in Taekwondo"


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## dvcochran (Jan 28, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I happen to agree with him that the way we are taught side kicks in intermediate patterns are illogical.
> 
> 
> The knee should not take a two directional route. This makes no sense. Advanced students obviously move freely and chamber whichever way they want, but this pathway remains in the patterns .....
> ...


This is a question for everyone. If you are sparring someone and see them wind up and turn the foot First like he does in the video, what would you do?


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## Buka (Jan 29, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This is a question for everyone. If you are sparring someone and see them wind up and turn the foot First like he does in the video, what would you do?



Which vid are we talking about, brother?


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## dvcochran (Jan 29, 2021)

Buka said:


> Which vid are we talking about, brother?


First post in the thread but I think this is it:


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## Ivan (Feb 2, 2021)

Acronym said:


> I happen to agree with him that the way we are taught side kicks in intermediate patterns are illogical.
> 
> 
> The knee should not take a two directional route. This makes no sense. Advanced students obviously move freely and chamber whichever way they want, but this pathway remains in the patterns .....
> ...


If I am not mistaken, I believe I read about how there is an experimentation centre for one of the Takewondo Federations that is solely dedicated to studying different kicks and how to maximise their power...


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## Buka (Feb 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> This is a question for everyone. If you are sparring someone and see them wind up and turn the foot First like he does in the video, what would you do?



We teach and train "When he moves, you move". This does not mean he has to move first. It just means that IF he does...

What he moves, where he moves, how he steps isn't as important to me. You adapt on the fly. It's the way of all fighting in my opinion. How does one learn to do that? By constance practice, against any and all types of movement. Against any and all types of techniques, against any and all types of footwork, takedowns, blitzes, attacks etc.

Hey, nobody said it was going to be easy. Or quick.

On a side note, the "when he moves, you move" also works in grappling....sort of. If I'm grappling with someone of my skill level (I suck) he's usually not going to be able to submit me. Even if he's bigger and stronger (again, as long as our skills are close)

But when you're grappling against somebody with far greater skills, purple and above, they'll outplay you. As soon as they recognize your game, and especially if they've rolled with you - they'll suck you in like the chump you are. They'll think..."okay, I'll get him to give me this, or I'll make him do this." And then they do. Every single time.

Anyway....so if I see that foot turn or land this way, I'm already moving towards his back, or towards whatever arm his motion causes him to lower because of balance mechanics. You know, where your arms go when you kick depending on how much you have to lean.


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