# Open carry misfortune



## KenpoTex (Jan 17, 2009)

We've discussed open carry in the past and I've made no secret of the fact that I think it's stupid...

Regardless of your personal feelings on the issue, I think it's safe to say that this guy definitely should have kept his piece hidden.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm


> Man robbed in the Centreville area
> 
> About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim&#8217;s head. *The suspects took the victim&#8217;s hand gun which he was openly carrying.* The suspect&#8217;s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.
> The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 17, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> We've discussed open carry in the past and I've made no secret of the fact that I think it's stupid...
> 
> Regardless of your personal feelings on the issue, I think it's safe to say that this guy definitely should have kept his piece hidden.
> 
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm



The element of surprise is one of your greatest advantages......why give it up?


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## seasoned (Jan 17, 2009)

This is like walking around with 100 dollar bills hanging out of your pocket.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 17, 2009)

I cannot for the life of me understand why it's so hard to grasp the fact that Open Carry is an ABSOLUTE "not do".

It isn't a matter of "right" or "opinion" It is a matter of "stone cold stupid", end of story and you are BUYING what happens to you.

A)It isn't smart, or a deterrent--You're gonna have unnecessary friction in public and with cops because you're violating the sacred commandment of "Thou Shalt Not Frighten The Taxpayers".

B)It won't matter to *THIS* generation of thugs if they see a weapon--_If someone means to have you , they'll find a way_ and there's your only advantage ( or more appropriately, *EQUALIZER*, not advantage) gone, now they know to shoot first/ ambush/assassinate before proceeding to the crime.

There is NO ROOM for debate on this one. Carry open and you are BUYING what happens to you. BUYING it. End of story.

grumble mutter cuss curse swear. :rpo:


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## Guardian (Jan 17, 2009)

I agree, I'm not going to advertise that I have a gun on me and that's exactly what open carry is doing, hey look what I have, come take it.

Just plain ignorant, they can rob me and if they don't know I have it, then the surprise is on them when they turn to leave and I pull out my surprise on them it it's worth it, each situation is different of course.


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## David Weatherly (Jan 17, 2009)

seasoned said:


> This is like walking around with 100 dollar bills hanging out of your pocket.


 

Agreed.  Why not add a neon sign that says "Idiot looking for trouble"

David


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## searcher (Jan 17, 2009)

Great points and discussion so far.

Here in KS we actually had a guy show the AG and the rest of the powers that be, that open carry was a super bad idea.   He slapped on his SASS 6-gun rig and walked through a heighborhood in a small town.   Within minutes, the police had him surrounded and took him into custody, even though what he did was legal.   This was one of the things that helped us get CCH here.  They used it to make the point of how it makes the Libs less nervous, when they have no idea of what we are carrying or when we are carrying.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 18, 2009)

Matt, I agree. We have this big thing now in Texas where they want it. Now I do hate the fact they can suspend my license if I 'flash' or 'fail to conceal' my handgun.



seasoned said:


> This is like walking around with 100 dollar bills hanging out of your pocket.


 
No not a 100 buck bill. With the cost of good handguns it's more like a $400 bill or more!

And if I was a bad guy and needed a piece, I'd just cold cock some geezer who packed openly and take it.

Deaf


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## terrylamar (Jan 18, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Matt, I agree. We have this big thing now in Texas where they want it. Now I do hate the fact they can suspend my license if I 'flash' or 'fail to conceal' my handgun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The same would apply to each and every law enforcement official walking around openly carrying a firearm.

I'm happy for everyone's concern, but let me make that decision for myself.


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## Guardian (Jan 18, 2009)

terrylamar said:


> The same would apply to each and every law enforcement official walking around openly carrying a firearm.
> 
> I'm happy for everyone's concern, but let me make that decision for myself.


 
Oh well to each their own on this issue, but just to point something out, there is a difference between you, me and an LEO, most people won't just up and try and take an LEOs weapon from them, maybe it's the uniform thing.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 18, 2009)

while it may not be a common occurrence, it does happen.



> Two rookie cops yesterday chased down a Queens punk who, *after stalking their Police Academy classmate, bashed his skull with a baseball bat and stole his gun...*
> The thug, Danny Fernandez, 21, *looked for a cop for more than three hours before he pounced* on Officer Joseph Cho...
> Fernandez allegedly told police later that he wanted to use the officer's gun in a series of robberies to pay off $16,000 in debt


http://www.nypost.com/seven/0206200...chram__larry_celona_and_dan_mangan.htm?page=0


I guess my question is: what is the perceived benefit of open carry?  I'm not seeing one...


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## terrylamar (Jan 19, 2009)

Guardian said:


> Oh well to each their own on this issue, but just to point something out, there is a difference between you, me and an LEO, most people won't just up and try and take an LEOs weapon from them, maybe it's the uniform thing.


 
I was thinking more of LEO that do not wear a uniform.  While, this can happen to anyone, I still think it is relatively rare.  

Then there is that pesky 2nd Amendment that keeps getting in the way, the way it was written, not liberal interpretation of it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 19, 2009)

Guardian said:


> Oh well to each their own on this issue, but just to point something out, there is a difference between you, me and an LEO, most people won't just up and try and take an LEOs weapon from them, maybe it's the uniform thing.


 True, generally......though 10% of officers murdered in the line of do are murdered with their own weapon.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 19, 2009)

terrylamar said:


> The same would apply to each and every law enforcement official walking around openly carrying a firearm.
> 
> I'm happy for everyone's concern, but let me make that decision for myself.


 You can do it if you like, I don't have a problem with it.....but it's kind of like playing poker while showing your hand......much of the advantage of a gun is the element of surprise.

As for Law Enforcement Officers......it takes away their element of surprise too, and in the event of shooting that gun and uniform marks us as the first target.

There is much to be said for keeping your cards close to your vest.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 19, 2009)

terrylamar said:


> I was thinking more of LEO that do not wear a uniform.  While, this can happen to anyone, I still think it is relatively rare.
> 
> Then there is that pesky 2nd Amendment that keeps getting in the way, the way it was written, not liberal interpretation of it.


 Oh I fully support your right to carry, openly or otherwise.......but just because you CAN, doesn't mean you always should!

It's always good practice to keep your piece hidden.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 19, 2009)

terrylamar said:


> I was thinking more of LEO that do not wear a uniform. While, this can happen to anyone, I still think it is relatively rare.
> 
> Then there is that pesky 2nd Amendment that keeps getting in the way, the way it was written, not liberal interpretation of it.


 

This isn't a matter of "right" to do something. Certainly I believe the "right" should be there as in if I flash my gun by accident I don't get crucified by local laws, , or if I'm on my own property I shouldn't have to conceal( though I would anyway).

wWe have the "right" to do any number of inadvisable things. Under the first amendment I have the right to enter a gathering of Neo-Nutzis and expound upon my views that racism is wrong.

What I DON'T have is the right to expect to be held immune from the blatantly obvious consequences of so doing.


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## terrylamar (Jan 19, 2009)

There are consequenses for anything and everything we do.  So, what are we to do, pull our heads into our shell and hope danger passes us by?  At some time we need to stand up on our two hind legs and be men, responsible men.  I never said it was responsible to openly carry in all situations.  However, there are many situations where it is perfectly responsible to carry in the open.  The individual has to make that determination, that is why the 2nd Amendment is an _individual right, _not a _collective right/state's right_.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 19, 2009)

terrylamar said:


> The same would apply to each and every law enforcement official walking around openly carrying a firearm.
> 
> I'm happy for everyone's concern, but let me make that decision for myself.


 
Well cops alot of times have snatch resistant holsters, bullet proof vest, two-ways, and partners.

But yea, if I really wanted a gun, some of the smaller cops would be on the menu.

Deaf


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## terrylamar (Jan 19, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Well cops alot of times have snatch resistant holsters, bullet proof vest, two-ways, and partners.
> 
> But yea, if I really wanted a gun, some of the smaller cops would be on the menu.
> 
> Deaf


 
If that was your intent, why set your sights so low? (pun intended.)


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 20, 2009)

terrylamar said:


> There are consequenses for anything and everything we do.  So, what are we to do, pull our heads into our shell and hope danger passes us by?  At some time we need to stand up on our two hind legs and be men, responsible men.  I never said it was responsible to openly carry in all situations.  However, there are many situations where it is perfectly responsible to carry in the open.  The individual has to make that determination, that is why the 2nd Amendment is an _individual right, _not a _collective right/state's right_.


 I don't disagree in any general sense, i'm just discussing the practical side of open carry versus concealed carry.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 20, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Well cops alot of times have snatch resistant holsters, bullet proof vest, two-ways, and partners.
> 
> But yea, if I really wanted a gun, some of the smaller cops would be on the menu.
> 
> Deaf


 And again 10% of officers murdered are murdered in exactly that fashion.....in any fight a cop is in, there is ALWAYS a weapon.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 20, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> And again 10% of officers murdered are murdered in exactly that fashion.....in any fight a cop is in, there is ALWAYS a weapon.


 
Yes but it's unheard of to stalk a officer for that reason!

Deaf


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## HM2PAC (Jan 21, 2009)

I don't understand why anyone would open carry in an urban/suburban area, that is for sure.

However,  I do open carry when out working/playing in the woods. I also open carry on my own property (we live in a very rural area). I certainly think that there is room to do this while hunting/fishing/hiking in the great outdoors w/o being labeled as stupid with a blanket statement.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 21, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Yes but it's unheard of to stalk a officer for that reason!
> 
> Deaf


 

Apparently not anymore. Hope you guys got your concealed backup weapons


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## punisher73 (Jan 21, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Yes but it's unheard of to stalk a officer for that reason!
> 
> Deaf


 
Read the link that Kenpotex posted.  While very rare it does happen.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 21, 2009)

No doubt punisher. I have no doubt it's been done, especially in countries with a rebellion going on. And if times get tougher here, it might become more common.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> I don't understand why anyone would open carry in an urban/suburban area, that is for sure.
> 
> However,  I do open carry when out working/playing in the woods. I also open carry on my own property (we live in a very rural area). I certainly think that there is room to do this while hunting/fishing/hiking in the great outdoors w/o being labeled as stupid with a blanket statement.



No, I agree, there's nothing wrong with slapping on the Smith and Wesson .500 in bear country......it's not like the bears are going to jump up and disarm you (well, they might try to dis-arm you, but...)....the issue, though, is why you're carrying the gun......personal protection from bears, hunting.......or keeping to ward off human predators.

At the end of the day it's better to be armed either way generally, in my opinion......but if I can keep the other guy from seeing my hand, i'd prefer that....IMHO


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Apparently not anymore. Hope you guys got your concealed backup weapons


 Always!


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## Guardian (Jan 24, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> True, generally......though 10% of officers murdered in the line of do are murdered with their own weapon.


 
I've read that also SgtMac, but I would venture to say that was after a struggle of trying to apprehend someone or simular situations, just for someone to say jump on a LEO, I haven't heard to many of those stories to get their guns.

That was my only point.


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## HM2PAC (Jan 25, 2009)

sgtmac wrote:


> the issue, though, is why you're carrying the gun......personal protection from bears, hunting.......or keeping to ward off human predators.



Mostly when out and about it's for bears. Mostly they are unseen/never-seen, but it's the mama bear with cubs that worries me. Cubs at times will run right-in where they shouldn't, and mama will go right-in after to protect them. Sometimes in the summer, I find bear scat in our back pasture, within 100 yds of the house.

Probably the biggest opportunity for us to meet the bears is when we are out picking berries, or fishing in the spring. If I am in an area that is frequented by a lot of people I do CCW, but for the most part, when I'm out in the woods, I open carry.


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## Thesemindz (Jan 25, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Yes but it's unheard of to stalk a officer for that reason!
> 
> Deaf


 
I'm sitting here watching this ridiculous action flick called "crank" on cable. It's silly and violent and sex filled and foul. And right in the middle of the movie, the hero sneaks up on a cop from behind and grabs his gun in broad daylight. 

Art imitating life?


-Rob


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## AzQkr (Feb 12, 2009)

I open carry often enough out here in Az. I work a gun shop couple days a week and open carry to and from the shop and in the shop all day. I'm faster in open carry mode by over 1/2 second should an attempt be made to take us down by bangers coming in the door; and open carry in the shop actually prevented an attempted take down of the register by three young bangers who were packin under their shirts when questioned about their intent while my hand was conveniently placed in close proximity to the firearm they could see.

I wouldn't carry openly going into some area where there was a crowd, retention could be problematic if someone wanted to get froggy and test the waters, pretty easy to lose it I'd think in that situation.

If you don't have a physical presence and are small and light, you might invite an attempted take away, on the other hand I think if you have project a physical presence and awareness and not lax in letting people get close enough to make an attempt, I don't think it's much of a possibility, certainly a possibility, but not a high probability.

Couple that with the BUG they don't see in the back pocket and some training in retention and martial skills, I'd think most situations could be handled if you have any skills at all if someone got stupid and tried it.

Brownie


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 12, 2009)

Again, that's a bit of a different situation than open carry in public.

It's like some other poster said, I'm waiting to hear of the advantages to open carry that outweigh the disadvantages and haven't heard it yet. *shrug*


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## wimwag (Dec 31, 2013)

KenpoTex said:


> We've discussed open carry in the past and I've made no secret of the fact that I think it's stupid...
> 
> Regardless of your personal feelings on the issue, I think it's safe to say that this guy definitely should have kept his piece hidden.
> 
> http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm



When carrying any weapon, you need to keep a higher situational awareness, even more so when you carry it openly.  Being someone who openly carries daily (more comfortable for me) except in the winter or rain, I don't let anybody anywhere near my strong side and am always looking behind my back.  When you first start carrying, you get pretty inventive in terms of looking at what's behind you.

Though if you conceal, you could be subject to a robbery too, especially if "printing."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

If you want to carry it openly, you should carry big one and to have one on each sides.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/9670/o2pu.jpg


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## wimwag (Dec 31, 2013)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Again, that's a bit of a different situation than open carry in public.
> 
> It's like some other poster said, I'm waiting to hear of the advantages to open carry that outweigh the disadvantages and haven't heard it yet. *shrug*



We could compare that statement to George Zimmerman's experience concealing.  The "element of surprise" was Trayvon's and according to Zimmerman, Trayvon saw it and went for it.  Sure, Zimmerman surprised Martin with a double tap, but that's after he was already victimized.  Besides police officers losing their guns when they aren't paying attention to their surroundings, this is the only incidence I have ever heard of an open carrier losing his gun.  

Armed is armed and no matter how you do it, at least you are taking the initiative.  You alone are responsible for your own safety.


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