# How to defeat someone using soft force



## Yoshiyahu (Jan 26, 2009)

I had questions on ways you can defeat a softer or weaker opponent. If you have a smaller opponent who is really skilled in fighting with softer more internal art like Tai Chi or Bagua. What would be the best way to defeat him using Wing Chun?


How can you defeat someone usuing soft and passive force?

Are do you believe Wing Chun is no match for Tai Chi Chuan with out crosstraining another internal style?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2009)

The only thing I am certain of in an actual fight between a high level Wing Chun person and a high level Taijiquan person (or high level Baguazhang) is that you will have one hell of a fight.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 26, 2009)

The answer is most probably that to defeat soft force is some ways easier than to defeat soft force. That is, to defeat soft ways, the best way is to know the tricks and techniques of the opponent. -Once you become alert and know what moves to expect, it becomes really difficult for the soft ways. Secondly, the best way is to be extremly cautious with ones balance and stay away from the guy alltogether because soft often relies of the opponent using force and then uses that same force to overpower. 
If there is striking allowed the soft practitioner may also have some advantages...so one would have to match that threat as well.

I am speaking from the perspective of a soft practitioner that was defeated in such a way.

j


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I had questions on ways you can defeat a softer or weaker opponent. If you have a smaller opponent who is really skilled in fighting with softer more internal art like Tai Chi or Bagua. What would be the best way to defeat him using Wing Chun?
> 
> 
> How can you defeat someone usuing soft and passive force?
> ...


 
Fighting Bagua is not the same as fighting Taiji that is the first thing you need to understand so if you are looking for a blanket answer there isn&#8217;t one. Also styles of taiji are not the same as far as fighting goes so there is no blanket answer to cover that either. Chen is not the same as Yang so if you are looking for an answer that will defend against Chen it may not work against Yang and the same goes for something that might work against Yang might not work against Chen either. And something that you tried against Yang that may have worked the first time may not work the second time if &#8220;your&#8221; force (the attacker) is slightly different. 

Taiji tends to stick and follow and depending on style it can be rather patient in waiting for openings as well as frustrating to those that fight it and it is not above attacking in order to break a stalemate, if need be. Also if you are too soft in response you it will take advantage of that as well. A skilled Taiji person can be pretty skilled at the Qinna of their given style. And popular to contrary belief it can strike as well, but not the same as many styles since it tends to be relaxed, more like a whip (but not exactly).

Now we need to define what you mean by soft and passive force


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 26, 2009)

Actually I would liken Wing Tsun to a springy coiled force,yielding only when re-directing 0r re-routing the opponent,even then once contact has been established or felt you should never lose contact with your opponent.as geezer pointed out re-establish your center or you could allow a technique such as a bong sau to collapse(press on head tail up) only to re-emerge.Utilizing the turnstile theory to me best illustrates soft or borrowing energy;opponent drives in roundhouse,step forward diagonally nose to nose with a tan sau and a sun punch along the centerline,the opponents own driving force once met with the tan sau should be enough to drive your sun punch into his face.(of course add your repetitve slapping wall bag training exercises,and your two man sets) speed plus the opponents momentum=knockout! (picture shoving a revolving door and looking at the opposite door) I do not mean to downplay Tai Chi but I have yet to meet someone who teaches or practices the combative art ot Tai Chi.Sun is the closest thing I've witnessed.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> Actually I would liken Wing Tsun to a springy coiled force,yielding only when re-directing 0r re-routing the opponent,even then once contact has been established or felt you should never lose contact with your opponent.as geezer pointed out re-establish your center or you could allow a technique such as a bong sau to collapse(press on head tail up) only to re-emerge.Utilizing the turnstile theory to me best illustrates soft or borrowing energy;opponent drives in roundhouse,step forward diagonally nose to nose with a tan sau and a sun punch along the centerline,the opponents own driving force once met with the tan sau should be enough to drive your sun punch into his face.(of course add your repetitve slapping wall bag training exercises,and your two man sets) speed plus the opponents momentum=knockout! (picture shoving a revolving door and looking at the opposite door) I do not mean to downplay Tai Chi but I have yet to meet someone who teaches or practices the combative art ot Tai Chi.Sun is the closest thing I've witnessed.


 
You would likely find more in Chen that train SD and Students of Chen Bing are big on fighting. For Yang style you would need to look more to students of the Tung Family or the Fu family for fighting. But Yang style takes longer, IMO, to get to SD than Chen. 

Then only other style that is still big on fighting would be Zhaobao and that it is not easy to find a real Zhaobao school outside of China.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 26, 2009)

Well I do not want to get into naming techinques an how to counter them. I merely am asking how do you defeat someone who is purely soft?

Just woundering what people opinions would be?


Its a pretty broad question which allows for many different answers and shared experience much like *kaizasosei*

Anyone can share.

But I am woundering if WC guys have ever pondered how they would defeat Tai Chi Fighters, Bagua Fighters, Aikido Fighters and others. Just a thought provoking question more than right answers. For me I can only share what I experience from people I know who practice Tai Chi. Some of them I would adjust various ways. I would take advantage of their weaknesses. But this is my opinion of course.




Xue Sheng said:


> Fighting Bagua is not the same as fighting Taiji that is the first thing you need to understand so if you are looking for a blanket answer there isnt one. Also styles of taiji are not the same as far as fighting goes so there is no blanket answer to cover that either. Chen is not the same as Yang so if you are looking for an answer that will defend against Chen it may not work against Yang and the same goes for something that might work against Yang might not work against Chen either. And something that you tried against Yang that may have worked the first time may not work the second time if your force (the attacker) is slightly different.
> 
> Taiji tends to stick and follow and depending on style it can be rather patient in waiting for openings as well as frustrating to those that fight it and it is not above attacking in order to break a stalemate, if need be. Also if you are too soft in response you it will take advantage of that as well. A skilled Taiji person can be pretty skilled at the Qinna of their given style. And popular to contrary belief it can strike as well, but not the same as many styles since it tends to be relaxed, more like a whip (but not exactly).
> 
> Now we need to define what you mean by soft and passive force


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well I do not want to get into naming techinques an how to counter them. I merely am asking how do you defeat someone who is purely soft?



Hit 'em.

If you are better at what you do than he is at what he does, you will beat him.  Or if you get lucky, you will beat him.  Or if he is having an "off" day, you will beat him.  Or if you surprise him you will beat him.  Or if you sucker-punch him, you will beat him.

If not, he will beat you.

I don't understand why you are micro-analyzing this.  You simply do what you do, apply the methods, strategies and techniques of your system to the situation, and if your skills are solid you will win.  Or not.  

A fight cannot be analyzed systematically nor scientifically like you are trying to do.  It is chaotic and random, and I don't think you can really go into it thinking that because the other guy has trained in bagua, then you need to fight some different way.  Unless the fight was pre-arranged you probably won't even know if he has trained in bagua, or something else.  The fight ought to be over one way or the other quickly enough, that I doubt either of you will even recognize the training that your opponent has.

If you get the chance to train with a bagua guy, then you might gain some insights.  But otherwise, let it go.  I don't think this line of speculation is very fruitful.

It's easy to over-analyze yourself into paralysis.


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## seasoned (Jan 27, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I had questions on ways you can defeat a softer or weaker opponent. If you have a smaller opponent who is really skilled in fighting with softer more internal art like Tai Chi or Bagua. What would be the best way to defeat him using Wing Chun?
> 
> 
> How can you defeat someone usuing soft and passive force?
> ...


 
What definitely comes to mind, is our friends from the animal world. It seems that the bigger animals know they are big and strong, so in some cases they pray on the weak. But that is not to write off the weak as being unable to survive in this environment. The smaller, weaker animals seem to realize their short comings, and adapt very well. Corner one of them, and they transform into a raging inferno.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 27, 2009)

> How can you defeat someone usuing soft and passive force?


 It is still force which means it can still be redirected,followed,
uprooted. Just because it is soft and passive does not mean there is no force or energy.


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## seasoned (Jan 27, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> It is still force which means it can still be redirected,followed,
> uprooted. Just because it is soft and passive does not mean there is no force or energy.


 

With two people of like mindedness and equal skill, it sounds like you could reach an impasse. 
:asian:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 27, 2009)

> With two people of like mindedness and equal skill, it sounds like you could reach an impasse.


 
And then they become friends


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 27, 2009)

Sadly, the short answer is that wing chun would far better a majority of the time. Merely because whilst Tai chi and wing chun are very similar, wing chun is a lot more efficient (direct lines of attack, close quarter techniques, etc) Plus wing chun is designed purely for fighting. I have never seen a tai chi guy taking out a good martial artist. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that can't find any youtube clips, and when I have been to tai chi schools, they have been pretty poor

Maybe one day I'll be proved wrong, but it isn't like I've been to a couple of schools and based my opinion on that. I know three guys personally who have done tai chi for over 20 years, I've been to several (around 30)tai chi schools in my lifetime, and scoured youtube

Whereas wing chun - in the London area you have some very very good fighters. 
But I'm always open minded.


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## profesormental (Jan 27, 2009)

Greetings.

To the original question:

I agree with Flying Crane. Just hit them. Drill right through them and overwhelm and control.

Yet it is a loaded question, because if I can catch the guy by surprise, it wouldn't matter the style.

And much, MUCH more importantly...

If one guy trains Wing Chun and the other Taijiquan to a high level...

they would talk and be friendly.

Thugs rarely have the profile needed to train internal arts. Or any high level CMA. They mostly if at all train, like combat sports.

So the context of the confrontation would be important. Because if it is a match, there would be rules.

If it is a life and death confrontation, it will probably be started by just one of them.

If both agree that the other should be wiped from the face of the Earth, and both agree to this, then I would bring firearms and weapons.

If they're both drunk out of their minds and decide to settle which is best in the bar, that would just be entertaining! 

Thus I view these kinds of questions without appropriate context quite intractable.

If you confront someone, use what you know. The best Taiji person I know here trained in Wing Chun when he was young, and his Chi Sao was quite good! I had to reach into my bag o tricks to trap him, and he got me a few times too! I had a lot of fun.

And Bagua people are very elusive if you don't corner them or use some Chi Gerk to monitor and trap their footwork. They can use their red cape and bulldodge you for a while!

It is hard to hit someone that doens't want to fight and has good elusive footwork. It is so effective that it is illegal to use in combat sports.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado
Wing Chun Kuen Fat
Accidentally punched a Taiji guy trying push hands on me... It came slow, and I don't know why he didn't cover his face... I did it push hands slow.

And I intimidated a Bagua practitioner with Fa Jing expression... didn't want to play... hard to find goo internal stylists to play with here...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2009)

profesormental said:


> Thugs rarely have the profile needed to train internal arts. Or any high level CMA. They mostly if at all train, like combat sports.


 
I think this is a very good point.

We often have threads going here on MT that deal with "X" style vs. "Y" style and which would win, or how do you need to adapt your training or your methods to deal with them.  In my opinion, a lot of that discussion is really quite pointless, at least if you are thinking about self defense.  The average thug out there is very unlikely to be a highly trained martial artist of ANY style, much less an internal style.  

The only place where this kind of discussion really makes some sense is in the context of competition.


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 27, 2009)

Oh,you mean a *person* that is using soft force against you......
easy,if you are a rigid Wing Chun stylist you lose.....
Chi Sau develops sensitivity not rigidity.......and I have yet to see a Tai Chi school here in the U.S.that teaches combative Tai Chi. anybody? Yoshi,do you train Wing Chun?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 27, 2009)

Very interesting on fighting softer styles...I enjoyed your experiences very well...lol...i wounder how effective someones wing chun would be if they were drunk?

Any one ever heard of drunken wing chun fist?

what about drunken tai chi master....

here is a video of guy using some drunken martial arts against a karate guy!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiC7ef8xsms


Maybe it should look more like this?




 
I dont know either case seems pretty ineffective against some H-street crips or Piru Bloods. 

But the Shaolin guy did pretty good!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMJ_b9uV1Lo&feature=related


Heres a look at Tai Chi Fights!





 




 









profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> To the original question:
> 
> ...


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## redantstyle (Jan 27, 2009)

soft v.s. soft is about who has better concealed hinge points.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 27, 2009)

Please explain more?




redantstyle said:


> soft v.s. soft is about who has better concealed hinge points.


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## redantstyle (Jan 27, 2009)

soft force is yielding and leading skill. 

the 'winner' is the one who can get his opponent to overcommit, and in turn, receive that pressure and somehow alter it's vector/direction to the detriment of the attacker.  chisao, palm changes, bridging, tui shou, etc. all depend on some type of rotational re-alignment of the opponent's force.  you get him to overextend by some 'trick' of repositioning.  there are various lateral drags that are applied, but generally there is always some torque involved at the point of contact.  a door hinge is a favorite analogy for the body movement.  the 'concealed' part is basic reference not only to the postural setup but the timing as well. 

this 'soft v.s. soft' scenario would only last a split second and comes down to who can slip whose bridge.  somebody decent might yield out once or twice more, but within a second or so, one or the other gets hit or thrown.  

it's just a quick game of cat and mouse. 

regards.


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## mook jong man (Jan 27, 2009)

I've done chi sau sparring drunk and its not to be recommended unless you don't like looking in the mirror and seeing a full set of teeth when you smile.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 28, 2009)

So if your sparring someone who does a soft style whats your best course of action to defeat him/her???

Whats the best way to counter someone using soft force?Every technique and skill has a counter? So what have you found?




redantstyle said:


> soft force is yielding and leading skill.
> 
> the 'winner' is the one who can get his opponent to overcommit, and in turn, receive that pressure and somehow alter it's vector/direction to the detriment of the attacker. chisao, palm changes, bridging, tui shou, etc. all depend on some type of rotational re-alignment of the opponent's force. you get him to overextend by some 'trick' of repositioning. there are various lateral drags that are applied, but generally there is always some torque involved at the point of contact. a door hinge is a favorite analogy for the body movement. the 'concealed' part is basic reference not only to the postural setup but the timing as well.
> 
> ...


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## K-man (Jan 28, 2009)

There seems to be a bit of confusion in terminology.  Soft does not equal weak and yielding is not passive.  If you get hit by somebody who practices a soft style, it hurts just as much.  Both have their place. Preferably you learn how to use both within your chosen style.  :asian:


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 28, 2009)

Well soft techniques deal with re-direction and neutralizing force along with other techniques. My question is how do you counter soft techniques any of them?




K-man said:


> There seems to be a bit of confusion in terminology. Soft does not equal weak and yielding is not passive. If you get hit by somebody who practices a soft style, it hurts just as much. Both have their place. Preferably you learn how to use both within your chosen style. :asian:


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## redantstyle (Jan 28, 2009)

k-man, 

he is referring to time/distance, and bridge controls. more of the entering aspect, as opposed to any strike/fajing.

Yoshiyahu,

you've got two options:

1) straight blast
2) counter technique


the first option is simply not to play the game. dont reach out. make sure not to engage with reaching attempts on his part. instead, control distance, and strike directly to his core. rinse. repeat. 

the second option, to counter, is not really available to you. i say this because you have both practical, and tactical issues.

in your OP, you noted a smaller opponent using 'soft force'. this could be interpreted alot of ways, but i figured i know what you mean by context. 

smaller opponents have a natural advantage in chi sao, tui shi, etc. because such skills are based on pressure sensitivity. because you have more mass, you tend to 'overbear' and this is read easily by the smaller fighter. in many cases, you will actually 'displace' the smaller opponent, and he can easily ride your momentum to slip away from relatively conservative advances. 

the tactical problem is that you are asking the problem from the wrong end when it comes to 'defeating' soft force. it is the epitome of deception. false targets are presented, distance is manipulated, and angulation is used to advantage. it's 'bait and switch'. they get you to commit, and then pull the rug out from underneath you. 

if you want to play this game you have to learn it, one step at a time.

doubtless counters exist within the framework of the system you are training in. and they are usually all part of the basic patterns. once identified, you can use x to counter y. 

regards.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well soft techniques deal with re-direction and neutralizing force along with other techniques. My question is how do you counter soft techniques any of them?


 
One of those other techniques is the use of fajing which can and will hit you very hard. Another one of those other techniques is Qinna which will hurt you. Soft styles like Taiji = Patience, assuming I understand what you are talking about when you say soft

Redirect, neutralize, follow are all parts of it but do not focus on only the terminology because within that you will find fajing, qinna and a few other hidden nasties.

But again I am back to my original question as to how you define "soft"


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

Well lets get away from the word soft...because we may see it as different. I see soft as someone using their opponents force against them and not using phyiscal strength to overcome power. 

But forget about it.

Lets focus on what would be best stratgem for a Wing Chun guy to defeat a Tai Chi Fighter?

Please share your opinion?




Xue Sheng said:


> One of those other techniques is the use of fajing which can and will hit you very hard. Another one of those other techniques is Qinna which will hurt you. Soft styles like Taiji = Patience, assuming I understand what you are talking about when you say soft
> 
> Redirect, neutralize, follow are all parts of it but do not focus on only the terminology because within that you will find fajing, qinna and a few other hidden nasties.
> 
> But again I am back to my original question as to how you define "soft"


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well lets get away from the word soft...because we may see it as different. I see soft as someone using their opponents force against them and not using phyiscal strength to overcome power.
> 
> But forget about it.
> 
> ...


 
Train and trust in Wing Chun that is all.

And as previously stated somewhere in this post, the chances of coming up against a Taiji person these days that actually knows how to fight with it are slim and those that do are not like to attack anyone so unless a wing chun person is looking to go out and find a Taiji person trained in MA and attack them you are likely never going to come up against this.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

Thank you for that information?

lol ha ha...




Xue Sheng said:


> Train and trust in Wing Chun that is all.
> 
> And as previously stated somewhere in this post, the chances of coming up against a Taiji person these days that actually knows how to fight with it are slim and those that do are not like to attack anyone so unless a wing chun person is looking to go out and find a Taiji person trained in MA and attack them you are likely never going to come up against this.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 30, 2009)

Nope. Wing chun beats all systems. End of discussion. Lol


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 30, 2009)

Wing Chun is a good system...But so is Bak Mei so is White Crane...so Is eagle claw...so is choy li fut...so is Tiger and Crane...so is boxing...so is karate...they are all great systems...but the one with the most skills wins the fight...if they are equal in skill then the one who is strongest wins. If they are equally strong and skilled then the fastest will win.






Kamon Guy said:


> Nope. Wing chun beats all systems. End of discussion. Lol


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