# Shoshin ryu jujutsu?



## Mr. President (Jan 12, 2015)

So I came across this Uchi Deshi program in the states that teaches Eishin ryu and Shoshin ryu. I understand that Shoshinryu is some sort of an American twist on Danzanryu. Can anyone expand on that? Is it another standard unarmed style of modern jujutsu?


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2015)

If you have the money and time, it might be an interesting experience.  If it's the website I've been looking at, it claims history to Japan.  I can't say beyond what they say; we do have a few members who may well have better information on the style.


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## Mr. President (Jan 13, 2015)

What members are those?


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 13, 2015)

I have no knowledge of the system even after reading their web page.
all I can say is they have instructors that look like they are doing judo,and jujutsu from the video's.  
no real information on how long their instructors have studied what arts is given


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 13, 2015)

Mr. President said:


> So I came across this Uchi Deshi program in the states that teaches Eishin ryu and Shoshin ryu.* I understand that Shoshinryu is some sort of an American twist on Danzanryu. *Can anyone expand on that? Is it another standard unarmed style of modern jujutsu?



I'm not really sure that the highlighted part makes any sense at all, since Danzan Ryu was founded in Hawaii... How do you apply an American twist to an already American art?

I also find the idea of paying someone $7000 to allow me to come work for them a bit... odd.
I've seen this in the dive world a lot, too. Dive shops offer Divemaster "internships" where you pay them a chunk of cash to come work in the shop.


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## Mr. President (Jan 13, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not really sure that the highlighted part makes any sense at all, since Danzan Ryu was founded in Hawaii... How do you apply an American twist to an already American art?
> 
> I also find the idea of paying someone $7000 to allow me to come work for them a bit... odd.
> I've seen this in the dive world a lot, too. Dive shops offer Divemaster "internships" where you pay them a chunk of cash to come work in the shop.



Well, in wikipedia it says: Shoshin Ryu Yudanshakai was founded by Michael Chubb to provide an educational, athletic, and recreational outlet to aid the physical, moral, and social development of adults and children within the framework of the sport and martial art of Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

You don't sign up for an Uchi Deshi to work. You're there to study intensively. But yes, during that time, you clean the dojo and stuff like that. That's true for every single Uchi Deshi program there is.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 13, 2015)

That's what they tell people in Divermaster internships too...

Hope it works out for you.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 13, 2015)

sorry I can't believe much of what is written in Wikipedia  I have read to much there I know is false.  When anyone can change what is there it becomes a matter of who writes what last not always what is true 

but  if you enjoy the system then my best to you in your studies


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## Chris Parker (Jan 17, 2015)

Mr. President said:


> What members are those?



Hmm, that might be someone like me… 



Mr. President said:


> So I came across this Uchi Deshi program in the states that teaches Eishin ryu and Shoshin ryu. I understand that Shoshinryu is some sort of an American twist on Danzanryu. Can anyone expand on that? Is it another standard unarmed style of modern jujutsu?



If we're dealing with the site that JKS found, there's a few things that leap out at me… to begin with, let's look at the Shoshin Ryu. Yeah, it's a modern, Western (American) take on (frankly) some of the physical technical methods that they think makes up a Jujutsu Ryu… from an actual Ryu-ha structure, it's missing a fair bit, but that's fine unless it's claiming to be a traditional Japanese system. All in all, it's a fairly stock standard collection of techniques… could be good, could be bad, could be anything in between, really… based purely off what I saw on the website, I'd be giving it a rather wide berth, and wouldn't consider anything close to a "Uchi Deshi" program. Honestly, I don't see any real appeal in entering into such an arrangement with a group who don't even know how to write their own name (or translate it…. "Shoshin Ryu" is given as "True Heart System", with the kanji 正心流… except that says "right heart", not "true heart"… "true/authentic" is Shoshin 正真… which takes out the "heart" aspect… "true heart" would be "Ma-gokoro" 真心, combining "Makoto/Shin" and "Kokoro/Shin"… and, while it means fairly literally "true heart", it also refers to "sincerity"… so… yeah. Fail on the language front alone…)

The "Eishin Ryu" section is what really caught my eye… it's not altogether common to see Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu referred to as such (technically, it's the middle section of the system which is actually the "Eishin Ryu" itself… the first section is the Omori Ryu, for example)… and, going through the website, there are a large number of somewhat careless typos, with the name of the Ryu given incorrectly, the names of historical figures incorrect and so on… that could just be carelessness (in this field, such a thing is a poor indication, honestly), but watching their videos was… odd. I'm not particularly familiar with the Tosa line of MJER, however the execution was kinda… off… in a few ways (poor angle on the blade coming out of nukitsuke, appearing to clip the inside of the koiguchi on the draw, a very odd form of o chiburi, mixing up the noto from a few sections, performing a kata which is in the Muso Shinden Ryu, not the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, poor balance on a few kata, and so on). The lineage, if the website is to be believed, is fine for their line of MJER, but parts of it struck me as being more the "learn from video" approach.

All in all, not someone I'd be willing to enter into an Uchideshi situation with… but, in the interest of full disclosure, an Uchideshi relationship is really rather pointless in many, if not most cases, and not something I'd recommend except in very rare circumstances.


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## Hanzou (Jan 20, 2015)

That Arizona school looked pretty solid. Nice, clean looking dojo in a pretty nice area of Scottsdale. Fees aren't too bad, and their grappling technique looked okay. And then they ruin it with all their "wanna-be Samurai" crap.

Personally, I'm always wary about clearly western schools trying hard to be as Japanese as possible. It's annoying and a turn off. That translation error that Chris pointed out is a prime example. Why even bother if you can't even translate Japanese correctly? Just be who you are, and be of your culture. If I want authentic Japanese JJ, complete with authentic Japanese culture, I'll go to Japan and learn from actual Japanese people.

If you can stomach that sort of thing, by all means, give it a try.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 20, 2015)

The big thing is that an "Uchi Deshi" program, as presented here, is often done to give the impression of a more "traditional" training methodology (train like the old samurai did!)… except that's not the case at all. Back in the day, the samurai would have their regular duties, their home life, any particular job they might have, and so on… and then training. In other words, they didn't do "live in training" in many cases at all… it was an anomaly, if it happened at all.

In other words, Uchi-deshi programs are a fairly modern thing… not traditional at all. This is what I was getting at when I said that I wouldn't recommend them… and that they're actually rather pointless (when taken with the idea of "this is the way it's meant to be done!").


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