# Kihon Happo roots



## Fool Wolf (Sep 29, 2004)

Hi everyone,

I am a novice ninjutsu practitioner, but well read on the theory and history (probably not as well read as a lot of you guys).  I have recently become interested in the kihon happo.  I believe Hatsumi soke took it from Gyokko ryu.  The below link lists techniques called "kihon happo" to a Jujutsu school.  The names for a lot of the moves are similar to the Bujinkan techniques.  Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned?  Which came first?  In my current Jujutsu class I have been suprised at how many of the techniques are similar to what I have seen of Bujinkan budo taijutsu.  I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on this matter.

peace
FW


http://mypages.smig.net/users/jtweymo/Kihon_happo.htm


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 29, 2004)

Fool Wolf said:
			
		

> Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned? Which came first? In my current Jujutsu class I have been suprised at how many of the techniques are similar to what I have seen of Bujinkan budo taijutsu. I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on this matter.


From what I see, the jujutsu school you refer to has a loose connection to Takagi Yoshin ryu. I've been told that Gyokko ryu came to Japan at about the year 1100 CE and had an influence on a few martial arts in Japan; Takagi Yoshin ryu being one of them. On the other side of the coin, I've been told that some of the Takagi Yoshin ryu kihon happo katas are different than those from Gyokko ryu. For example, one uses Oni Kudaki, another does not.

My girlfriend, (who's been studying Aikido for the past 8 years) and I were talking about something like this yesterday morning. She was saying how "Nikkyu" and "Kotegaeshi" in Aikido are mechanically the same as "Ura Gyaku" and "Omote Gyaku" in Gyokko ryu. "So what's the difference?", I said. From her perspective, it was "the feeling". In Aikido, she says she feels like she moves in a big, smooth circle to create inertia and "a flow" to toss her opponent. From her perspective, when she sees/experiences the Bujinkan version, she says she gets the impression that we're moving smoothly, but smoothly in a way that makes it difficult to "see" what's going on.

Anyone else have other thoughts?


----------



## Gary Arthur (Oct 26, 2004)

Kihon Happo I believe was something that Hatsumi Sensei started in the late 1970s or 1980s. Many people believe that this form comes from Gyokko Ryu but actually only the first three patterns of striking come from that school. The other techniques such as Musha Dori come from other schools such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone, but originally it was really just an idea. When one talks for example of say Hicho Kata there is now a set way of doing this, but in the early days it simple meant 'How to use Hicho' and there were many examples.

I believe Kihon Happo can also be translated as something like 'Infinite ways of using the basics'


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 26, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone,


 Is it?

 The reason I ask, is that I have always been told that you "Do" Kihon happo to learn the movements, and how the joints work, etc... but then when you understand how they are done you use those movements as an underlying idea on how to "use the gifts your opponent gives you"... and I have seen the Kihon Happo done a large varitey of ways...

 Is the way I am being trained in it different than what is "Norm" in the Bujinkan?


----------



## Kreth (Oct 26, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Is the way I am being trained in it different than what is "Norm" in the Bujinkan?


Not really, no. Seems someone has a misconception about Bujinkan training... 

Jeff


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 26, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Kihon Happo I believe was something that Hatsumi Sensei started in the late 1970s or 1980s. Many people believe that this form comes from Gyokko Ryu but actually only the first three patterns of striking come from that school. The other techniques such as Musha Dori come from other schools such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu.


Nope. Musha dori comes from Gyokko ryu. It's oni kudaki that's from TYR.



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone,


Umm, no??



			
				Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> When one talks for example of say Hicho Kata there is now a set way of doing this,


IMHE, it has always been like that.


----------



## r erman (Oct 26, 2004)

double post


----------



## r erman (Oct 26, 2004)

> Nope. Musha dori comes from Gyokko ryu. It's oni kudaki that's from TYR.



Actually, I think it comes from Musashi Ryu Jujutsu...

The point that Gary is trying to make is that if you ask a person, "what are the fundamental techniques within the kh?", you are going to get a list of the koshi kihon sanpo and the torite kihon goho.  But depending on how long ago you started learning these the torite kata may have been:

ura gyaku
omote gyaku
musha dori
muso dori
oni kudaki 

or

ura gyaku
omote gyaku
musha dori
oni kudaki(both ura and omote)
ganseki nage

or

omote gyaku
omote gyaku tsuki
ura gyaku
musha dori
ganseki nage

or

omote gyaku 
ura gyaku
hon gyaku
musha dori
ganseki nage

...etc, ad infinitum

I think Kreth has a point, too, but I think many bujinkan schools have fallen under the spell of 'this is Hicho no Kata' rather than looking at(as Gary said) a concept for using hicho no kamae.  In other words, Gary's "misconception" of bujinkan training is not all that uncommon within the bujinkan.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 26, 2004)

Really?? That's interesting. I've heard that Musashi ryu was incorporated into Shinden Fudo Ryu, but never Gyokko ryu. I believe there is also some old text written by Hatsumi sensei in the 70's that states that originally, kihon happo eight was muso/jigoku dori rather than ganseki nage.

I guess the simplest way to summarize it all is that there is no one right way to do the kihon, but plenty of wrong ways...


----------



## r erman (Oct 26, 2004)

> I guess the simplest way to summarize it all is that there is no one right way to do the kihon, but plenty of wrong ways...



Nail on the head


----------



## Gary Arthur (Oct 27, 2004)

Nimravus

I think we are getting carried away a little bit by the names of the techniques.
The movement Musha Dori is common to lots of schools and is used in the Kata 'Kata Maki' from Koto Ryu, in the Kata 'Oni Otoshi' from Kukishinden Ryu, and in several kata from the Takagi Yoshin Ryu.
Oni Kudaki is also used in the Takagi Yoshin Ryu and was shown by Doron Navon back in 1987 when he visited the UK.
If we are saying that Mushadori comes from Gyokko Ryu, then where in the scroll is this techniques listed as being called Mushadori.
As far as I can remember there are no techniques that bear a resemblance to Musha Dori in Gyokko Ryu (although of course it depends how your insructor interprets the school).

I also remember seeing a tape of some westerners training with Noguchi Sensei in Japan. They ask him how to do Jumonji No Kata. Noguchi Sensei looks a little perplexed and then show many different ways of using Jumonji in a fight. As westerners we love to get things set in stone, but in the east things are not really like that. However a time has gone on I believe that these once concepts have become set techniques.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 27, 2004)

It's what I've been hearing for as long as I've been training. 

The main damage point in musha dori by the way is of course the shoulder, in katamaki it's the elbow.


----------



## heretic888 (Oct 28, 2004)

*shrugs* For whatever its worth....

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sukisha/gyokko.html


----------



## Shizen Shigoku (Oct 28, 2004)

*Fool Wolf: "I have recently become interested in the kihon happo. I believe Hatsumi soke took it from Gyokko ryu. The below link lists techniques called "kihon happo" to a Jujutsu school. The names for a lot of the moves are similar to the Bujinkan techniques. Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned? Which came first? In my current Jujutsu class I have been suprised at how many of the techniques are similar to what I have seen of Bujinkan budo taijutsu. I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on this matter."*

From what I've been able to piece together over the years, the following is what I've been able to conclude:

I don't know how many styles have a set of kata specifically called, "kihon happo," but the idea of having a group of fundamentals is common to many martial arts. The jujutsu school mentioned - after a quick glance - looks like someone took kata from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and modeled it to fit a kihon happo template, and with a few other minor tweaks, created a new style (or a new way of doing an old style).

I've only seen the kihon happo as a 'Hatsumi-ha' (Hatsumi-sensei's syle/method) of teaching basic techniques, most of which are from Gyokko Ryu. However, I don't think they were referred to as "kihon happo" within the Gyokko Ryu. The basic forms of Gyokko Ryu (before getting to the joryaku, churyaku, and geryaku no maki) consist of "ki kata" - 5 postures and their uses - likely a kind of sanshin or gogyo no kata; "moto kata" - the kihon kosshi sanpo / kosshijutsu san dan kamae kata / etc; "torite kihon kata" - the following five kata done 'sayu' (left and right) for a total of ten forms: omote kote gyaku dori, omote gyaku no tsuki ken sabaki, ura gyaku, musha dori (jigoku dori? see below *), muso dori - which were called "view one," "view two," ... "view ten;" the basics may have also included shinken taihenjutsu (muto dori).

*Gary Aurther: "Today the Kihon Happo is practiced like it is laid in stone, ..."*

*Technopunk: "Is it?"*

Yeah, I'd have to disagree too. I suppose it depends on where you train (is that how it is in Toshindo?), but the overall flavor of Bujinkan training is the exploration of many henka (variations) early on. I'm sure some/many dojo teach them as 'set in stone' for beginners to have a single fundamental form to work on before getting lost in henka land.

*Gary Aurther: "...but originally it was really just an idea. When one talks for example of say Hicho Kata there is now a set way of doing this, but in the early days it simple meant 'How to use Hicho' and there were many examples. .. *

*I believe Kihon Happo can also be translated as something like 'Infinite ways of using the basics'"*

The above is the feeling I get from watching Hatsumi (unfortunately only on video for now), and the shidoshi I train with. Each kata is an idea that leads to an infinite number of techniques.

I think that's why we see so many different outlines of the torite kihon.

The original 10 kata of the Gyokko Ryu has been modified into the Bujinkan kihon happo, and many variations exist.

*r erman: "...etc, ad infinitum"*

Yes, and if not to infinity, then at least to ten:

1. ura gyaku
2. hon gyaku (as ura gyaku henka)
3. omote gyaku
4. omote gyaku tsuki (as omote gyaku henka)
5. oni kudaki (omote)
6. ura oni kudaki (henka of omote oni kudaki)
7. musha dori (uchi maki dori ashi ori, 

* [possibly a henka of jigoku dori, but the movements are so dissimilar, jigoku dori always seems like an 'ura' henka of the omote oni kudaki to me])

8. jigoku dori (a sort of omote henka to the 'ura' muso dori)
9. muso dori 
10. ganseki nage (as muso dori henka)

*Nimravus: "I guess the simplest way to summarize it all is that there is no one right way to do the kihon, but plenty of wrong ways..."*

Damn that's beautiful!

*Gary Aurther: "I think we are getting carried away a little bit by the names of the techniques."*

Helps us to set things in stone, just the way we Westerners like it. 

*"The movement Musha Dori is common to lots of schools ..."*

It sure is, and not just schools of the Bujinkan.

*"... and is used in the Kata 'Kata Maki' from Koto Ryu, ..."*

*Nimravus: "The main damage point in musha dori by the way is of course the shoulder, in katamaki it's the elbow."*

That's how I've seen it as well, but I have seen musha dori as a variant of katamaki.

*Gary Aurther: "...in the Kata 'Oni Otoshi' from Kukishinden Ryu, and in several kata from the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Oni Kudaki is also used in the Takagi Yoshin Ryu ..."*

I'll have to check my notes to verify all that, but I believe you. I am pretty sure that oni kudaki is from TYR, but I've seen something similar in Kukishin & Shindenfudo.

*"If we are saying that Mushadori comes from Gyokko Ryu, then where in the scroll is this techniques listed as being called Mushadori.*
*As far as I can remember there are no techniques that bear a resemblance to Musha Dori in Gyokko Ryu (although of course it depends how your insructor interprets the school)."*

Interesting point. Again, I'll have to check my notes on that, but now that you mention it, I don't remember any mushadori-like movements in Gyokko Ryu kata either.

It may have been jigoku dori that was originally in Gyokko Ryu torite kihon kata, with musha dori being a variation. ??

This is all very intellectually stimulating, but of course being armed with this knowledge now, the important thing would be to practice all these variations.


----------



## Gary Arthur (Oct 29, 2004)

Oni Kudaki is technique number 9 in the Okuden Gata of the Kukishinden Ryu.

Interestingly Tanemura Sensei in article a few years ago stated that the basic techniques of Gyokko Ryu are the Koshi Kihon Sanpo and some techniques that translate as Tiger change, Panther change, Dragon change and relates to attacking techniques. Tanemura mentions nothing on the five Torite, even though he goes in some depth into the basics of the Gyokko ryu.
Sanshin I believe was once the secret techniques of the Gyokko Ryu.
Also important for Gyokko Ryu is of course the Chiryaku Futen Goshin Gassho fists etc, which are assumed before doing the different levels of the Ryu, i.e. Jo Ryaku, Churyaku etc. The school according to Tanemura Sensei also has in it Kamae such as Nemuri Ryu No Kamae, Ton Ryu No Kamae etc.

I still feel that the Kihon Happo was something that Hatsumi started. The western instructors took this set, standadized it and now use it as a way of teaching the basics.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 29, 2004)

In the new book by Alex Esteve, Oguri sensei states that Takamatsu said to him that "everything will be fine provided you can do the kihon happo".


----------



## Peter Steeves (Nov 16, 2004)

Just to throw in my 2 cents:

As a Jinenkan instructor, we as an organization tend to consider the basics the key to the whole puzzle. We think that you first have to get the parts, before you can assemble them into the whole. As such, we train all the basics with very specific details that absolutely _must_ be included to be "correct," while I most certainly agree that within a reasonable range, there is no single right way, but _lots_ of wrong ones. 

I remember in my training with the Bujinkan that it was more about learning them in context right away. Once the overall concept started to sink in, competent instructors had details they'd add in to get it more and more "correct." As long as your instructor knows his stuff, you'll make great progress with either approach. Many other martial arts approach the problem from either method of teaching, and still produce competent practitioners.

Perhaps this is the door to another thread, but what we call Muso Dori &#65288;&#28961;&#21452;&#25429;&#65289;&#12288;and Musha Dori &#65288;&#27494;&#32773;&#25429;&#65289;&#12288;seem to be the opposite of what's described here. This was a source of confusion for me when I arrived in Japan. We use them the same way as the names used in Hatsumi Sensei's _old_ videos about the "Foundations of Togakure Ryu."

Within that context, BOTH techniques are found in the Basics of Gyokko Ryu (#7 - #10). 

Also, Oni Kudaki, according to my records, is certainly found in _both_ Kukishin and Takagi.


----------



## Gary Arthur (Nov 16, 2004)

Take a look at this from this Stephen K Hayes web site. It explains how the Godai and Kihon Happo came into being. I know there may be some heated discussion on the truth of this but please remember Stephen Hayes was there. None of us were.

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.php

                     Gary Arthur


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 16, 2004)

He was there, and may still be wrong. Hint: there's a reason the Japanese shihan keep training with Hatsumi sensei...


----------



## Scooter (Dec 19, 2004)

just to play devil's advocate here....does it really matter where they came from? I think you're missing the point here, which is not where, but why....why do we do them? As Hatsumi has stated, these are the basics that everything else flows from. Think of it this way, there are only so many ways you can manipulate a joint (in general directional means)..these cover the major ones. Anything you do, if you break it down and keep breaking it down, sooner or later you hit the kihon. Once you have a working mastery of the kihon it is easy to build on, as that is the foundation for it all.
BTW, as Ed Martin ("Papa-san") has pointed out, the kihon happo can also be applied to legs, knees and feet as opposed to the arms, elbows and wrists. Stop thinking  of it so much in terms of specific kata, and more of what it is trying to teach you.


----------



## kenanderson (Dec 19, 2004)

Mr. Reisinger, 

It matters a great deal where basics come from. Without knowing where they come, why they were designed, and how they work, then we are doing something fundamentally empty. Also, without having that knowledge, it makes applying the lessons much more difficult. Without know where they came from, it makes it difficult to apply not only the technical aspects of the technique, but also the spirit is lost, making for a sloppy outcome.


----------



## Scooter (Dec 19, 2004)

I disagree greatly! Although my approach isn't for the hitorical and cultural relavence of the techniques, but simply if they work! I wasn't saying to be oblivious to what we are being taught by sensei, but simply pointing out the fact that MOST people are paying waaaaaaay too much attention to it. there are alot of people out there who insist on keeping training notebooks and have a obsession about knowing all the details (here I mean history, etc.)...who cares?!? that isn't going to do squat for you on the street...unless your attacker is impressed by a knowledge of feudal japanese history and warfare. people should be spending much more of this time and focus on actually doing the technique and making it work. Yes, the katas need to be learned, but I think we're taking a step backward by getting too caught up in them...that's how you get trapped by them, not free from them as sensei wants us to be.


----------



## Don Roley (Dec 19, 2004)

Scooter said:
			
		

> there are alot of people out there who insist on keeping training notebooks and have a obsession about knowing all the details (here I mean history, etc.)...who cares?!? that isn't going to do squat for you on the street...unless your attacker is impressed by a knowledge of feudal japanese history and warfare.



I have to disagree with you on this point. The stuff we do was not created in a vacum. There were certain realities that had to be dealt with when constructing an art like this. Knowing them can give a deeper understanding to the why and such that allows us to modify without destroying.

The guy I learned _kyogen_ from said something that struck me greatly. "You have to know the rules _and the reason why the rules are there_ to know when and how it is neccesary to _break_ those rules."

You want to modify kata so that you can use what they teach on the street? Well you better know the rules like I said. And in this case that means why they were created the way they were. If you learn non-kata stuff then it is not an issue for the most part. And you are very correct when you say that we should be more worried about getting the technique down just as the teacher showed us.

But a lot of the best stuff is still transmitted through the old means. If you want to toss out the stuff that has no meaning anymore without tossing stuff that still is relevent, you had best know the subject matter backwards, forwards, up and down.

By this I do not mean having a complete notebook or being able to recite off all the soke of a particular school. Much more important would be things like trying on armor and figuring out how people would interact with each other in those times. At West Point they still learn how Hannibal beat the Romans even though elephants are not part of the military anymore. It is about having a deeper understanding and being able to expand your ways of thinking more than quick, easy lessons handed to you on a platter.


----------



## Scooter (Dec 20, 2004)

However, my point is simply that if you are spending more focus on why the katas and such were created the way they were historicaly as opposed to how to make them work in today's situations, then they become static, fixed, historical and greatly irrelavent. I am NOT saying that we don't need to learn the kata, what I'm saying is there seems to be a trend of people putting too much emphasis on the when and not the how.


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 20, 2004)

Scooter said:
			
		

> there are alot of people out there who insist on keeping training notebooks and have a obsession about knowing all the details (here I mean history, etc.)...who cares?!? that isn't going to do squat for you on the street...


This is a common argument from people who don't know the When, why and and Where - only their version of the how.


			
				Scooter said:
			
		

> BTW, as Ed Martin ("Papa-san") has pointed out, the kihon happo can also be applied to legs, knees and feet as opposed to the arms, elbows and wrists.


Appeal to authority (your posts are riddled with this debate tactic)...  This is a pet-peeve of mine.  The Kihon Happo can't be applied to legs and knees.  Take GansekiNage - for example.  Please describe in detail how GansekiNage can be used on the legs...  
If you try to do this - I can use the same GENERIC logic to show the direct correlation between Kihon Happo and:  
1.  Driving a car.  
2.  Eating Chicken
3.  Tying a shoe,  Etc ad nauseum...

While I appreciate the thought - it is rediculous to say such things.


			
				Scooter said:
			
		

> However, my point is simply that if you are spending more focus on why the katas and such were created the way they were historicaly as opposed to how to make them work in today's situations, then they become static, fixed, historical and greatly irrelavent.


Says you....
This is an interesting response, however.  By saying what you said above - you place your knowledge of how things work ABOVE the founders and the generations since.  I don't think I have the resume to add and subtract from thier work...  maybe you do?


			
				Scooter said:
			
		

> I am NOT saying that we don't need to learn the kata, what I'm saying is there seems to be a trend of people putting too much emphasis on the when and not the how.


From your statement above - you are incorrect about the emphasis.  It isn't on the When... it is on the WHY.  If you don't think the WHY is important...  well...  ignorance is bliss, neh?

The schools have philosophical and strategic differences that are RELEVANT to understand why techiniques work the way they do.  If you hodgepodge them without the right foundation - you bastardize the system.  Again... check your resume (or post it here) before you decide what is best....

Anywho - this is most likely a wasted posting - as I am sure you aren't going to change...

Enjoy.

-Daniel


----------



## Kizaru (Dec 20, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> This is a common argument from people who don't know the When, why and and Where - only their version of the how.


I agree.



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> The Kihon Happo can't be applied to legs and knees. Take GansekiNage - for example. Please describe in detail how GansekiNage can be used on the legs...


The opponent kicks at you with his right leg.
You catch his kick on your left shoulder by dropping your weight and scooping his right leg with your left arm, similar to "Hane Tsurube" from Gyokko ryu.
Raise your arms,  turning clockwise rise up cinching opponent's knee.  
Step forward 45 degrees across opponent's "pedestal leg" with your left leg, tossing him away being sure not to get smacked in the head with his leg.



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> If you try to do this - I can use the same GENERIC logic to show the direct correlation between Kihon Happo and:
> 1. Driving a car.
> 2. Eating Chicken
> 3. Tying a shoe, Etc ad nauseum...


Please you the same generic logic to show the direct correlation...I need help eating chicken!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			











Personally, I feel I need to work a basic technique to death to get the leverage, rhythm etc correct. Then I need to know some background on the "why, when and where" before I start playing with how to adapt it. I think there are alot of important points to making things work, and prioritizing one over all the others is a deadend. When driving a car, it's important to know how to turn the wheel and work the pedals, but when it breaks down, I think it's important to know how the engine works...


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 21, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> The opponent kicks at you with his right leg.
> You catch his kick on your left shoulder by dropping your weight and scooping his right leg with your left arm, similar to "Hane Tsurube" from Gyokko ryu.
> Raise your arms, turning clockwise rise up cinching opponent's knee.
> Step forward 45 degrees across opponent's "pedestal leg" with your left leg, tossing him away being sure not to get smacked in the head with his leg.


And that is GansekiNage???  Where is the spine locking - or the displacement of his upper body from his hips?  Or how about how the locking mechanism (you should be bending his knee instead of locking his leg).  You can use the same technique and claim it is MusoDori, or UraGyaku...  

There is a HUGE difference between identifying a similiarity and it being the same....

This is what I was talking about...



			
				Kizaru said:
			
		

> When driving a car, it's important to know how to turn the wheel and work the pedals, but when it breaks down, I think it's important to know how the engine works...


This isn't the point I was trying to make.  The schools have concepts that are tied to their kamae - their kata - their strategy and their principles.  You can't hodgepodge them together later without the understanding of why they are in the school they are in to start with...  The Maai and Kukan are fundamental to school's inherent principles and strategies...  

At any rate...

-Daniel


----------



## Kizaru (Dec 21, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> And that is GansekiNage???


No, it's a variation applying the principle of Ganseki Nage.



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Where is the spine locking -


When you turn clockwise, opponent's spine "locks".



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> or the displacement of his upper body from his hips?


Stepping across displaces the upper body.



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> Or how about how the locking mechanism (you should be bending his knee instead of locking his leg).


So you're agreeing that Ganseki Nage can be done on the leg, so long as you lock the leg out be bending the knee?



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> You can use the same technique and claim it is MusoDori, or UraGyaku...


I disagree. 



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> There is a HUGE difference between identifying a similiarity and it being the same....


:idunno:  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I was under the impression that the discussion was digressing into "the principles of Ganseki Nage (et al) can be applied to the leg joints".  



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> This isn't the point I was trying to make. The schools have concepts that are tied to their kamae - their kata - their strategy and their principles. You can't hodgepodge them together later without the understanding of why they are in the school they are in to start with...


 I don't disagree with you there. As I wrote above, for me, technical competence as well as historical relevance is important for me to be able to effectivly apply what I'm being taught.


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 21, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> :idunno:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can agrue with you point by point again ... but in the end we are just arguing semantics here.  

If the "principle" of gansekiNage is locking a limb over your shoulder and behind your head - then throwing with a hip twist - then yes you are correct.   If the principle is locking a limb and throwing with a hip twist - then you are correct as well.  If the principle is locking something and throwing - then, again, you would be correct.  If the principle is just throwing someone - then, surprise, you would be correct. 

So which is ganseki nage's principle?   Or is there a principle and ganseki nage is an expression of that principle (this is a chicken / egg conversation).

Anywho -- 

I also have issues with the phrase that "groundfighting is taijutsu on your back" - as I believe the differences are significant enough to require a completely different look at things.  But alas - that is for another thread another day...

Carry on...

-Daniel


----------



## Mountain Kusa (Dec 21, 2004)

How about doing Hihon Kappo with the legs, I once caught my brother with onikudaki and threw him with it. All done with the legs. Thom Hunphries and Ed will all show how the Kihon are done on, to, and with the legs. One needs to understand leverage and physics. This is the feel.


----------



## Gary Arthur (Dec 21, 2004)

In relation to Ganseki Nage, there are many ways to take the balance. One way is to catch the arm and with your right arm and then by sending your left leg back and twisting the hips whilst keeping the back straight one can throw.

Another way might simply be to move the attacker to a position where he is off balance and throw. Yet another might be dropping to the knee and throw onto their head.

As to this idea that the arm has to be straight, well this might be Ganseki Gyaku. There are many variations of Ganseki Nage. Ganseki Harai, Ganseki Osai, Ganseki Otoshi, Ganseki Geri, Ganseki Ori (on the leg or the arm) etc. Takamatsu Sensei I was once told would hug the opponents arm in tight to throw, other keep their hand almost pointing up to throw.

Their may be no correct way. What is important is the concept and the feeling. Now with Ko Hane Tsurube one can step inside the attack when the attacker punches and grab that wrist with your nearest hand. left to right for example. Then as the opponent throws a roundhouse kick one can drop the body and pull down on the arm and catch the kick on the shoulder. One can then throw using the same dynamics as Ganseki Nage.

I saw one of the Japanese Shihan do this on an old tape and the attacker was virtually ploughed into the ground. I would excercise caution when doing this as this is a very dangerous technique as the opponent cannot breakfall easily and lands almost on his neck.

On page 77 of Hatsumi senseis Japanese Hanbo book picture one it looks like he has done  Ganseki nage with a stick to the leg. The page is entitled Gansekinage.


----------



## Scooter (Dec 21, 2004)

Daniel- seems like you've gotten a few examples. However, since you went ahead and decided to attempt to attck my credibility, let me ask...what rank are you? who do you train under? have you made it to Japan to train with hatsumi or any of the shihan? do you train with any of the shihan in your area?
 My reference to the kihon with the legs comes from a conversation with Ed Martin and Chalres Danniels, who both have discussed it with Hatsumi directly...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi??  This is what I meant by the over emphasis on kata- people get so hung up on "this technique is like this..." that they miss all the valuable applications, and in Hatsumi's own words, then the technique dies.
And by the way, since you brought it up...I do happen to know the who, when, why and how- thanks for the concern though.


----------



## Kreth (Dec 21, 2004)

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-


----------



## Scooter (Dec 21, 2004)

All I was doing was responding in kind, it wasn't too out of hand was it?


----------



## Kreth (Dec 21, 2004)

Scott, 
That wasn't directed at anyone specifically. It was just a friendly reminder. Things are mostly peaceful now that the neo-ninja crowd has gone back into hiding, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Jeff


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 21, 2004)

Scooter said:
			
		

> My reference to the kihon with the legs comes from a conversation with Ed Martin and Chalres Danniels, who both have discussed it with Hatsumi directly...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi?? This is what I meant by the over emphasis on kata- people get so hung up on "this technique is like this..." that they miss all the valuable applications, and in Hatsumi's own words, then the technique dies.


To break a pattern, first you need to HAVE a pattern. 
It is a well known fact that the average Bujinkan practitioner has a grasp of kihon worse than ****. Until that problem is corrected, there are a lot of better things to do than trying to grasp what Hatsumi sensei is trying to put across so that one can go on nationwide tours demonstrating all the cool moves and analogies one has picked up in Japan.


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 21, 2004)

Scooter said:
			
		

> Daniel- seems like you've gotten a few examples. However, since you went ahead and decided to attempt to attck my credibility, let me ask...what rank are you? who do you train under? have you made it to Japan to train with hatsumi or any of the shihan? do you train with any of the shihan in your area?
> My reference to the kihon with the legs comes from a conversation with Ed Martin and Chalres Danniels, who both have discussed it with Hatsumi directly...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi?? This is what I meant by the over emphasis on kata- people get so hung up on "this technique is like this..." that they miss all the valuable applications, and in Hatsumi's own words, then the technique dies.
> And by the way, since you brought it up...I do happen to know the who, when, why and how- thanks for the concern though.


Scott - 

Would my opinion be more valid if I was an instructor and the answers to your questions were "Yes"?

I understand there are many people who feel that kihon happo is universal - and applies to everything.  I would counter that the principles and strategies INSIDE of the kihon Happo are universal...  

So the question on the table is:  Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle?  If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application.  If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.

For what it is worth - before this degrades into a member size contest - I don't believe in perserving techniques just to have them without exploring the principles... 

Ciao,

-Daniel


----------



## Kizaru (Dec 21, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.
> 
> ...I don't believe in perserving techniques just to have them without exploring the principles...


My question has still gone unanswered-
"How can we apply those principles to eating chicken?!?!"


----------



## Scooter (Dec 21, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> My question has still gone unanswered-
> "How can we apply those principles to eating chicken



Depends on which part of the chicken you want to eat apparently!


----------



## Lawman85 (Dec 22, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> My question has still gone unanswered-
> "How can we apply those principles to eating chicken?!?!"


My German Shephard is great at this principle! He manages to eat about one of my neighbor's chickens a week! His technique is more of waiting on them to jump the fence, cornering them, and then dragging their dead bodies to the front yard so my daughter can see them and get sick. 
Unfortunately, he is so ninja like, I can't catch him on camera to show you how he locks the spin, displaces the body over the hips, and executes the throw....but I'm working on it for you....


----------



## Lawman85 (Dec 22, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Scott -
> 
> Would my opinion be more valid if I was an instructor and the answers to your questions were "Yes"?


Yes



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> I understand there are many people who feel that kihon happo is universal - and applies to everything. I would counter that the principles and strategies INSIDE of the kihon Happo are universal...


Damn, as Americans we really over analyze stuff.... lol...



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.


It is both. 



			
				DWeidman said:
			
		

> For what it is worth - before this degrades into a member size contest - I don't believe in perserving techniques just to have them without exploring the principles...


If you don't preserve the techniques, then you lose the art. The techniques must remain, and be taught and learned, in order for the art to live. It doesn't matter if you understand why you are doing them, or what the principles are behind them, or what year they were created, you must trust that they were put in there for a reason. At some point in your training, you will understand all of that, it may be sooner or later, but if you train hard enough and long enough, then your questions will be answered. 
The way I have always trained is to practice the Kihon everyday and try to perfect the movements and body control. Then I try to incorporate the techniques _and_ principles into real life scenerios. That is how the art grows, but the basics still must remain.

So, actually, almost every answer in this thread is right if you combine them.


----------



## Dale Seago (Dec 22, 2004)

Lawman85 said:
			
		

> If you don't preserve the techniques, then you lose the art. The techniques must remain, and be taught and learned, in order for the art to live. It doesn't matter if you understand why you are doing them, or what the principles are behind them, or what year they were created, you must trust that they were put in there for a reason. At some point in your training, you will understand all of that, it may be sooner or later, but if you train hard enough and long enough, then your questions will be answered.
> The way I have always trained is to practice the Kihon everyday and try to perfect the movements and body control. Then I try to incorporate the techniques _and_ principles into real life scenerios. That is how the art grows, but the basics still must remain.
> 
> So, actually, almost every answer in this thread is right if you combine them.



Looks to me like you and Shidoshi Weidman are probably pretty much in agreement here. . .


----------



## davidg553 (Dec 22, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.
> 
> -Daniel


  From Bujin No. 11:

 "It can be said that the method of "Ganseki Nage" is the foundation of throwing. With this "big rock throw", as it has a thousand variations and *limitless permutations, and varies in *limitless ways, one should go on training in it thoroughly."

 **The original quote contained the words 'countless' and 'uncountable', respectively. To me, these words convey the ideal of being limitless so I substituted accordingly. 

  So does 'method' refer to the technique or principle?  

  I'm reading the English translation of Bujin so the idea in the original Japanese could be quite different.


----------



## Lawman85 (Dec 22, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Looks to me like you and Shidoshi Weidman are probably pretty much in agreement here. . .


I agree


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 23, 2004)

Lawman85 said:
			
		

> DWeidman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then explain the difference between Gyaku Zeoi Nage <sp?> and GanSekiNage? If the principle is a throw and has limitless variations - then why name it and give it context -- Principles and Concepts / Strategies have no context_ by definition_, neh?

Anywho - we are all agreeing more than we are disagreeing. 

-Daniel


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 23, 2004)

Scooter said:
			
		

> ...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi??


Scooter - 

When Hatsumi tells me I am wrong in this matter - I will post a public retraction. Until such time, if you don't mind, I **WON'T**just take _*your *_word for it (even though that is what you are trying to get to do...)... 

Perhaps you should take a moment and re-examine the context they were speaking in....

Were you there when Charles spoke to Hatsumi - or are you getting this information second/third hand?  

How often has Hatsumi directly contradicted himself? 

Anywho...

-Daniel


----------



## Scooter (Dec 23, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Scooter -
> 
> When Hatsumi tells me I am wrong in this matter - I will post a public retraction. Until such time, if you don't mind, I **WON'T**just take _*your *_word for it (even though that is what you are trying to get to do...)...
> 
> ...



Whatever floats your boat. I have no reason to believe that Charles or Ed would make things up, and I know they are both closer to Hatsumi than either of us. If you wish to be untrusting in others (in this case seniors and personal friends of Hatsumi) that's your perogative/problem.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 23, 2004)

In his book "Taijutsu" from the 80's, Charles Daniel refers to sanshin as sunshi no kata, all the while speaking of the concept "zanshin". He also states that the reason there are so few lunge attacks in Japanese swordsmanship is because of the fact that the 16th century Japanese had a diet that affected the length of their legs.

Earlier this year someone I know asked Noguchi sensei something about Charles Daniel, and Noguchi apparently was unable to remember whom Charles was to save his life.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 23, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> How often has Hatsumi directly contradicted himself?


He does it all the time. He's Soke, he can do whatever he wants.


----------



## DWeidman (Dec 24, 2004)

Scooter said:
			
		

> Whatever floats your boat. I have no reason to believe that Charles or Ed would make things up, and I know they are both closer to Hatsumi than either of us. If you wish to be untrusting in others (in this case seniors and personal friends of Hatsumi) that's your perogative/problem.


I never said I don't believe them - what I am suspicious about is the CONTEXT they were talking in.  

Do you believe their status exempts them from making mistakes or being above reproach?  Do you blindly believe everything they say???



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> DWeidman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly...  This means that "Authoritative" answers (even when straight from the horse's mouth) are not always as set in stone as you would like to believe them to be.  

He is a Ninja - ya know...  

Whatever ....

-Daniel


----------



## Cryozombie (Dec 24, 2004)

*Moderator Note. 
  Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

  -TECHNOPUNK
  -MT Moderator-*


----------



## Shinobi (Jan 27, 2005)

Anyone ever heard of Jûroppô-me "16 views"? This is what everyone thinks is Gyokko-ryû Kihon Happô. The Kosshi Sanpô is the same, the Torite Gohô is where the differences are. No oni-kudaki and ganseki-nage in the jûroppô-me.

On the Takamatsu DVD you see for a few seconds the densho that Takamatsu-seseni made for Hatsumi-sensei showing the Gyokko-ryû Kihon (jûmonji and hichô no kamae), what the official title of that densho is I am not sure.

Its the same on the Gyokko Quest video, no names, just ippon-me, nihon-me, etc as listed in the densho supposedly.

Also if you have the 1988 Shadows of Iga festival footage of Manaka teaching, he shows the jûroppô-me on Stephan and Shawn up on stage.

As to when the Kihon Happô was put together ask Hatsumi-sensei as he is the only one who truly knows. Was it Toda, Takamatsu or Hatsumi? Daily Double for 2000$ Alex!


----------



## jtweymo (Oct 5, 2008)

Hello guys,

I don't usually post in the ninjutsu forums but...

Two points for ya

-- I'm the guy who's webpage is at http://mypages.smig.net/users/jtweymo/Kihon_happo.htm
this webpage was mentioned in the first post of this thread and it is one HELL of an old website. And a bad example of my school.

Go here for a much better look at it: http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/SYR_1.html

but even then it ain't nothing special. Whatever you'd wanna know about the school is said there.


-- Kihon happo like one of the posters on this thread said is a common kihon structure, ours bears no relationship to X-kan structure or technique. Whether or not your Bujinkan version of Kihon happo was coined by Hatsumi or not, I dunno.  But I do know this much, in line with the inquiry placed by the original poster: "kihon (no) happo" as a term (whether similar to your bujinkan version or completely different) occurs in at least four ryuha that I know of (counting your bujinkan it would be five.)  The following link, check out the translation page for "Shibukawa ichi ryu" if I am not mistaken
http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/Trans_pages.html Look for "kihon (no) happo", I'm pretty sure it's that ryuha, I have several translated on that page.

I also know that what Hatsumi has you guys doing for kihon gata like the happo is in fact common kihon-gata typing for: Hontai yoshin ryu, Takagi ryu, and various Kukishin schools. 

Your kihon-gata basics target the same three primary targets taught by all these class of schools (they're ALL yoshin schools by the way, go here for an explanation. Bottom of the page.)  The entire set of your kihon happo is an adaptation of the standard kihon-gata of the yoshin ryu schools in general. Hontai yoshin ryu has a version of them (kihon yonho, goho and roppo.) Takagi ryu has a version of them as do most of the Kukishin schools. Shinto yoshin ryu, Tenshin shinyo ryu and many besides* use some form of the same material that your bujinkan calls "kihon happo*"
From this perspective Hatsumi did NOT coin these things or their structure. It's stuff common to all the Yoshin schools.

 
Again, I don't usually post in the ninja forums so I'm sorry if my comments were uncwelcome? It isn't my school. But the guy (Fool Wolf) seemed to wanna know if the *Bujinkan* Kihon happo was jujutsu related... or worse, related to my school.  



> Fool Wolf said: The below link lists techniques called "kihon happo" to a Jujutsu school. The names for a lot of the moves are similar to the Bujinkan techniques. Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned?


 NOPE.   Not unless Gyokko ryu is a yoshin school, which I doubt. I've never heard it said so. ALSO Gyokko ryu is an older school (two forms exist, the koryu and hatsumi's branch) older in than Shinden yoshin ryu was founded in 1910. Shinden yoshin ryu isn't related to the X-kans, except wherein yoshin techniques might be shared in common. But from what I've seen of X-kan techniques, they aren't usually the same thing.

But I won't bother you with chit chat on my school, your inquiry was kihon happo related.


----------

