# Training guns with blanks



## teej (Jan 19, 2004)

This is just a heads up warning. The was a previous thread about Kenpo gun techniques that has been closed. The point was brought up about the defenders reaction to the sound if the gun went off.

I just want to caution anyone out there that may have gotten an idea to train with a gun with blanks. (again this is if someone got that idea)

Guns with blanks are dangerous. Several years ago, an actor on a set was showing off with a gun he knew was loaded with blanks. He accidently killed himself infront of everyone thinking that the because they were blanks...........well you get the idea. Bottom line, the gun with loaded with blanks killed him. (no, I am not referring to the Brandon Lee incident, that was completely different circumstances)

Anyway, I don't want to start a thread on gun safety. This is just in case someone read the previous thread and possibly got the idea they could practice with a gun loaded with blanks. I just want to make it clear to anyone out there reading that may not be familiar with guns, that at close range, blanks can cause serious bodily injury and even death. 

Train safe, YOU are responsible for you actions.
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


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## Seig (Jan 19, 2004)

The incident you are referring to was actor John Erik Hexsum (sp?).  He was on the hit series' Time Travellers and Cover Up with Jennifer O'Neil.  You are absolutely correct, he placed a gun loaded with blanks against his temple and the wad from the load pushed a quarter sized piece of his skull into his brain.  This happened about 1985.  Other issues to be concerned with are hearing damage and flash burns.  Blanks are not a good idea for training self defense techniques.


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## teej (Jan 20, 2004)

Thank you Seig, I was racking my brain trying to remember the actors name and what the show was called.

Teej


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## MisterMike (Jan 20, 2004)

I can't say for sure what's on these gun videos, but looks like blanks(?)

Probably not for the beginner. I've beento their camp and it's quite a dose of reality.

http://www.wayofthewinds.com/video.htm


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Jan 22, 2004)

I just took a look at the video a few times.

I can't tell if its blanks or maybe they could be caps too.


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


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## kenpo12 (Jan 27, 2004)

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever train with real guns.

End of story.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 27, 2004)

Something I'm wondering about, lately--why does it make sense to train in ways that raise your risks higher than they get, "on the street," you're supposedly training for? Or to train in ways that virtually guarantee long-term damage, so that you'll, "be prepared," against the possibility of getting hurt?

Seems to me that the mention of two actors killed with blanks, or unloaded guns, was a pretty good illustration of why we don't do that--just like (for those who didn't know) the Internationals tape of those idiots with the sword and the cucumber on the throat were a pretty good illustration of why wedon't do that.

Man walks into a doctor's office.

"Hey doc, every time I raise my arm like this (he illustrates), it hurts."

Doc says, "Well, don't raise your arm like that."


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## MisterMike (Jan 27, 2004)

I think training with real guns that are not fireable is OK. Like if you remove the firing pin, etc. There are replicas with the sme weight as well.

Oh - There's a difference between a demonstration (cucumber guy) and real weapons training.

I recently watched that old documentary "Budo" where the Kendo schools train in paired excercises with live blades. I think this kind of training raises the discipline bar quite a bit than if they were using wooden bokens.

Definitely not for everyone.

Whenever you introduce weapons training, the risk for serious injury goes up. The type of weapon also has a bit to do with it. I know most karate schools work with stick and knife disarms. The usually use a wooden stick, but rarely a live blade. But I think not using a live blade at some point never lets you fully respect what it can do.


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## pete (Jan 27, 2004)

> why does it make sense to train in ways that raise your risks higher than they get, "on the street,"- rmcrobertson



my tai chi master says you're more apt to get sick than to get attacked, so exercise for health and be prepared for defense. 

this "on the street" stuff is getting overplayed.  it happens, but one can train effectively without raising the terror alert passed orange.


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## kenpo12 (Jan 27, 2004)

> this "on the street" stuff is getting overplayed. it happens, but one can train effectively without raising the terror alert passed orange.



AMEN!


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## pete (Jan 27, 2004)

> But I think not using a live blade at some point never lets you fully respect what it can do. - mr.mike



while i respect your point of view, i cannot agree.  training with a live blade is going to injure someone, period.  if we were samurai preparing for a battle with a 50/50 chance of coming out alive, at best, training may need to be raised up a notch.  but if most of you guys are like me, well, the odds are a little more in our favor of getting through another day at the office unharmed.

2 years ago, i trained for the long island marathon.  i followed a well respected training program, and the first time i went the distance was the day of the race.  yes, it goes through your mind, will i hit the wall at the last 3 miles?  but you do rise above it when needed and smart training pays off.  

just a thought...


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## kenpo12 (Jan 27, 2004)

I'm beginning to think that a lot of peoples over infatuation with realism is nothing more than a manifestation of lack of self confidence.  There comes a point in training where you are defeating the purpose and possibly risking more harm than good.  
    There is a certain amount of realism that should be in your training but more people are killed with weapons that are unloaded than loaded if you know what I mean.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 27, 2004)

In the cucumber-and-sword demo I saw, one guy lay down and put the cucumber on his throat.

It's remarkable how far that jugular vein will spit blood.

I'd thought kendo guys wore armor, and used wooden bokken.

As for live blades, well, sword practice and forms are one thing...sparring is another.

Realism? Here are the two first things I was taught about knife techs: a) don't do them unless you're really in deep doo-doo and you have no other choice; b) if you do them, "for real," you are going to get cut; you only get to choose how bad.

If you practice with live blades, you will be cut. Probably badly, sooner or later. 

Sorry, but ALL training is unrealistic at some level. We're just arguing about level. Personally, I think it is more unrealistic to train with sharp knives and any sort of loaded guns, because a) we aren't in the SEALS and we are not going to be in the SEALS, b) getting cut or shot tends to crush the kind of confidence (AKA blind, stupid arrogance and optimism) that you will need if it is, "for-real," c) even live blades will not be real, because the intent isn't there, d) getting cut cuts your training time considerably, e) live blade means you cannot execute as closely, as strongly, or as rapidly as you might, "on the street."

I very much appreciated the point about training for health. Personally, I think that the vast majority of martial artists--if they really wanted to be realistic--would be better served with the unglamorous: a) check your tires and brakes and drop 5 or 10 MPH, b) get a non-skid mat for your tub, c) get your checkups done regularly, d) watch your diet 5% better, e) meditate more and cut some stress, f) hug your kids more, g) do a little against poverty.


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## MisterMike (Jan 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *I'm beginning to think that a lot of peoples over infatuation with realism is nothing more than a manifestation of lack of self confidence.  There comes a point in training where you are defeating the purpose and possibly risking more harm than good.
> There is a certain amount of realism that should be in your training but more people are killed with weapons that are unloaded than loaded if you know what I mean. *



It's OK. It's perfectly natural to feel you have to criticize a particular groups methods of training when you would never attempt it yourself. It's a defense mechanism.

I reeeallly doubt the two Kendo practitioners (not sport Kendo, no pads here) on the video have a self confidence problem.

But it's all good. We're here to get these feelings and issues out on the table to help one another.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 29, 2004)

Actually, Mike, it's common sense.


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## MisterMike (Jan 29, 2004)

"Overinfatuation with realism?" When did this become the label for traditional martial arts training? Sounds like lack of sense.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 29, 2004)

Mike, the website you listed earlier also features arrow-stopping technique. Uh....

Look, my point are really rather straightforward, and the first of them is that it makes very little sense for most of us to train in ways that are guaranteed to cause more-or-less permanent injury, whether this happens in the short of the long run.

Second, my point is that, "realism," has become an excuse for folks to get into all sorts of mad crap in the martial arts--like back-yard wrestlers hitting each other with chairs.

Third, folks, I guarantee you that if you train with blanks, or with live blades--and I'm just talking about kenpo here--sooner or later, you or somebody you train with is going to get hurt bad. 

And last--I will bet a shiny nickel that people who claim to be training realistically in kenpo with live blades are, in fact, artificially restricting all sorts of the, "conditions of copmbat."


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## kenpo12 (Jan 29, 2004)

> "Overinfatuation with realism?" When did this become the label for traditional martial arts training? Sounds like lack of sense.




Never said that about TMA training nor did I aim my comment towards you directly. I also have no problem with realistic training but there are boundries.  I draw the line a using real weapon.  Rattan sticks are one thing, if there is a slip you might break a finger or bruise something.  Training with real weapons (guns, knives) is over the line.  I don't care how careful you are or how much you think you're an expert.  
You can believe whatever you would like, and that's your opinion but I dissagree strongly with using real weapons, especially guns.


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## MisterMike (Jan 29, 2004)

Yes! There were arrow catching demo's  Aren't they great?

OK, look, I agree that if you train long and hard enough with live weapons you're going to get knicked. The possibility of serious injury exists as well, but some schools are for those types of people. Ones who are willing to immerse themselves into their study. And yes, admittedly, you may need to have a "screw loose" or two as compared to the average Joe.

I've been to both types of training, and they each have their merits. In fact, I am now under a teacher who comes from such an environment. And just as there are those who laugh at the others for training with live blades, there are those at the other end of the spectrum who shake their heads at the "softer" schools.

No big deal. But it's not a macho factor, a self confidence boost or something these guys put on a 6 foot trophy. I think there are sound, practical reasons for that type of training.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 30, 2004)

I see I wasn't clear. I disagree with the claim that training with live blades and blanks is for those who REALLY want to learn, to REALLY "immerse themselves," in their training. I think I can honestly say that at times at least, I've been as immersed as anybody else.

It's just a different way to train. It's not better; and from my viewpoint, in my opinion, it is both unnecessary and unnecessarily dangerous.


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## MisterMike (Jan 30, 2004)

If it's a different way to train, then isn't is presumeable that there are different lessons to learn?

The same way that you can train hard or soft with a fist. There are levels of training that can be appraoched with time and experience.


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## kenpo12 (Jan 30, 2004)

> If it's a different way to train, then isn't is presumeable that there are different lessons to learn?



No lessons are learned in the morgue.


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## Seig (Jan 30, 2004)

The first gun defense I teach goes thus:
Sacrifice of the Rod
The attacker has a pistol held to your forehead.
1.) From a natural stance raise both hands to head level making sure to keep your elbows anchored.
2.) As the attacker demands your wallet, bring your left hand to the check position.  Your right hand descends in a reverse downward claw at hip level.  
3.)  Using torque, claw your back pocket. With a two finger pinch, remove your wallet.
4.) With the wallet firmly between your thumb and forefinger, execute a thrusting uppercut.
5.) Wait for the attacker to take the wallet and return hands to the head level position.


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## MisterMike (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *No lessons are learned in the morgue. *



or by the thick-skulled.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 31, 2004)

Yeah, I actually used much the same gun defense long before I started kenpo...got stupid, got massively in the wrong place at the wrong time, guy sitting next to me stuck a little .22 revolver right behind my left ear...breathing slowed, hands went gently and slowly up, and I uttered my immortal war-cry..."My wallet's in my right-hand hip pocket...would you like to get it, or shall I?"

I also distinctly remember, some years later, bagging a 19-year-old kid for about 90 minutes while the transplant team got called, his aunt and mom wrung their hands and tried to talk to him, crying, and a priest came in...he'd stuck a little .22 next to an ear....22 shorts it fired...lovely fragment path from 1-2" wide, zig-zagged back and forth from side to side of the skull film...yes, that really does happen. Brain-dead, of course. 

I am sorry that Michael does not care for some of the arguments here. For those few readers who don't already know this, train hard, train as safe as possible. Training kenpo with a real gun, a live blade, guarantees that sooner or later you or somebody you train with will be hurt. Badly.

First rule of gun safety--as was already mentioned--is this: all guns are always treated as loaded. Second rule: never point a gun at ANYTHING you are not going to shoot. If you train with a real gun, let alone one loaded with"harmless," blanks, you are violating both rules. 

I would be happy to hear about this from gun people out there...

There may indeed be a very, very few people out there (Like SEALS, but even there, I bet not) who need to train in the fashion Michael insists upon. I have never met one. It is very unlikely that YOU have ever met one. And we are NOT these people. If that makes us nancy-boys, well, that there is life.

I apologize a bit for pursuing this. But in this particular case, I think it is very important that anybody reading this forum who's thinking about this even vaguely hear this very, very  clearly: real guns and live blades are a bad, bad idea.

To quote kenpo12, never never never never never, never never never train with a real gun.


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## Seig (Feb 1, 2004)

I can speak with some authority on this, albeit second hand.  My late step-father was a man named Will Keller.  In his Navy Career, he went from enlisted to commissioned to retire as enlisted.  He originally joined the Navy in Jan 1942, he was 14 years old.  He spent his 15th birthday on Guadalcanal.  When the NCDU was formed, Will volunteered and was accepted.  He stayed with the unit as it evolved into UDT and later EOD.  He spent WWII as a NCDU supporting the Marine Raiders.  In Korea, he spent his time in the north conducting UDT exercises.  He treained the first SEAL team to go to Vietnam.  He was on the "Team before One", before they were officially designated SEALS.  Before he was to receive the "Budweiser", he was approached by the DoD, his entire team retired from the Navy and went back to work for the DoD, doing the exact same thing as civilians, for higher pay and better benefits.  They spent 3 straight years in Vietnam as civilian combatants.  (Will called Robert Marchenco (sp?) a loose cannon and someone who should not have been on the teams).  Will came into mine and my mother's lives in early 1974.  I said all that to say all this.  This man, who was a pioneer in "real combat", had a lot to say about training with and against weapons.  He had a lot to do with forming my judgement.  He felt that you never trained with "real guns" in a hand to hand scenario.  He felt that training accidents should never happen.  They did do some "live knife" training.  They did this with the "dummy" wearing a "cut proof suit" and a medic on hand.  He felt that training was "idiotic and formulated by a moron".  What he often said to me was, "Son, train with the dummy equipment.  If you ever need the training and don't freeze from fear, it will serve you well; better than if you never trained at all."  His belief was,"If you respect all weapons, you shouldn't have to fear them.  If you do not respect them, they will kill you."


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## MisterMike (Feb 1, 2004)

Well, since the gun issue keeps being tossed back at me like I've said anything about it, I guess I'll finally address it.

I would look for a replica, so that you can see the differences between a revolver and a magazine fed weapon. If all you train with is a rubber cutout, as I've seen at many Kenpo schools, you're not getting the feel of the weight of a real gun, among other things.


As for knives, this doesn't mean go slashing each other across the chest. But being faced with a real knife at some point in your training is completely different than imagining that piece of oak is a real blade. Just walking through one of your techniques with a real blade you'll probably pick up a few places where you'll want to check yourself a little more. Or you may find in that initial overhead stab, your beginning to arch your back away from it just watching your opponent raise his arm up. It puts a little more discipline in the training, among other things.


Frankly, if at some point you can't introduce a real weapon in the classroom, you probably haven't got much business teaching how to defend against them. Lawyers and lawsuits aside, that's just the reality of it, and most schools aren't in it. But they have plenty in the snack bar and lots of 6 foot trophies.

It's one thing to say these are the 2 ends of the training spectrum, but then to come off and say don't ever do one of them, well, I'd say don't ever train with a wooden stick and tell me your a knife fighter.


:goop:


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## teej (Feb 1, 2004)

Dear Moderator, I started this thread. I believe that the safety issue of training  with a gun loaded with blanks as been addressed. My point was to inform the untrained and possibly uneducated in gun safety, that may be following some previous posts, of the life threatening dangers of blanks in guns. Other live weapons training warnings have surfaced as well. I believe that as educators, we have done our part to warn any potential accident victims viewing  this site. 

Please end and close this thread.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 1, 2004)

One last time, then:

If you train kenpo with a real gun, sooner or later you or somebody you know is going to get badly hurt. All guns are always, always, always to be treated as loaded.

If you train kenpo techniques in any meaningful fashion (other than Long Form 8, which is what it's for) with a live blade, you or someone you train with is going to get badly cut. Very badly. Sooner rather than later.

It is vital to be realistic about martial arts training. This includes thinking through some of your hangups about hypermasculinity and what Donohue calls, "warrior dreams," just as much as it includes thinking through some of your hangups about fear, embarassment, lack of focus, and all the rest.

It is impossible to train for all eventualities. Try for a reasonable middle ground. 

It is unwise to completely rack yourself up for the long term, which you will do if you train with real guns, live blades and kenpo techniques, unless you are in extraordinarily-rare circumstances. Even then, as Seig pointed out, it's almost certainly unnecessary.

To rewrite Mr. Chapel a little, even when we walk out in the parking lot, there still are no ninjas in the parking lot. And a good thing too.


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## Seig (Feb 2, 2004)

Adressing the issue of closing and locking the thread.  I understand why Teej is asking for the thread to be closed; however, I am disinclined to acquiesce.  I feel that the thread drift as it has occurred has been within the spirit of the topic and it hs not gone into the realm of disrespect.  If at any time, this thread does either. I will reevaluate at that time.
-Seig-
-MT Admin Team-


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## KenpoTex (Feb 4, 2004)

To start with, this has been a very interesting thread and there have been some excellent points made...now for my two cents.  I do feel that it is beneficial to train as close to reality as you can without being unsafe or negligent.  For those who don't like rubber cutouts and wooden knives there are options available that are considerably safer than using the real thing.  for example, you can get training weapons, which I think are called "redguns," that are used by many police departments.  they make models to look like many different types of handguns and they are the exact same size (and I would assume the same weight) as the guns they represent.  as far as knives go you can get knives from Benchmade that are exactly like their normal folders except that the blades are not ground to an edge.  these are nice b/c they open and lock just like their functional counterparts.  You can also get knives made by Gerber that are made so you can put powdered chalk on the edge to show if the knife comes into contact with someone's body.
  As for the real gun thing, as a die-hard gun enthusiast I would NEVER use a functional weapon in training, there is absolutly no reason for even the slightest risk of an accident in this area.


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