# Hard target, soft weapon, soft target, penetrating weapon



## lonecoyote (Mar 2, 2005)

Has anyone heard of or practice this philosophy when it comes to self defense fighting, It seems to make sense to me. Versus a hard target like the head, one would use weapons like the heel palm, or forearm, while versus a soft target, like pit of stomach, solar plexus, groin, meaty part of leg, one would use a penetrating strike using knuckles, fingers, or whatever. It would lessen the chance of injury to the weapon, hands mainly. just wondering. Thanks in advance for replies.


----------



## Casey_Sutherland (Mar 2, 2005)

Definatly. In class we use the hard target to soft tissue, soft target to hard tissue. Hammerfist to the skull and face because the padding of the palm saves your hand. If they hurt me, I want to hurt them and not hurt myself any more. The soft tissue below the clavical and above the pectorial muscle for example I would strike with an angled fist or a Dragon's Fist (Middle Knuckle Punch) because they can penetrate and turn off the muscle and emit pain. If I struck the temple for example like this I could really damage my hand, for this reason I would use a hammerfist or my elbow for supreme damage. The elbow can be used in a number of places. It is one of the strongest joints in the body and usually is only separated by intense accidents like car crashes. The bone befor and after the elbow is what usually breaks. Just some info for ya


Casey


----------



## Flatlander (Mar 2, 2005)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Has anyone heard of or practice this philosophy when it comes to self defense fighting, It seems to make sense to me.


Me too.  In fact, I try to employ this philosophy not only in targetting, but I try to extract it that it may manifest in all of my movement.  Enter where there is an opening, yield or blend with pressure, go around the hard.  You may get a better idea of what I mean here.


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't teach the closed fist strike to my students until much later in training.  It is mechanically something that takes more mechanical skill than a heel hand strike and it also takes more conditioning to make it a truly effective weapon on a consistent basis.

I am not saying that arts that start and stay with a punch are 'bad' for doing that, but as a self defense focused instructor, it is something that I do to get a usable skill into my students tool box quickly.  I have spent many painful moments with the twisted wrist because I hit a bag with a bad wrist angle or the wrong surface on my knuckles in the process of learning.


----------



## lonecoyote (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks Casey Sutherland, Flatlander, loki09789, Casey, I hear what you are saying about the elbow and it is a tough joint, but do you mean striking with the very point or tip of the elbow, to me that is kind of a hard weapon that I would use on a soft target, because having banged the tip hard (went elbow tip to shin last month kickboxing and I had a stinger all the way up to my fingertips) I'm not sure. The area right behind the tip I would use on a hard target though,  some  kenpoists, this is what they mean by elbow, the area just behind it. throw a spear with the tip into a hard surface like a wall  and then use the just behind area. the tip will experience a lot more discomfort. Flatlander, that is very deep. You have either dazzled me with brilliance, or what was the other one? Baffled me with something? Just kidding. loki09789, that's interesting, do you teach the punch as a penetrating strike to points on the head later?


----------



## Casey_Sutherland (Mar 2, 2005)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Thanks Casey Sutherland, Flatlander, loki09789, Casey, I hear what you are saying about the elbow and it is a tough joint, but do you mean striking with the very point or tip of the elbow, to me that is kind of a hard weapon that I would use on a soft target, because having banged the tip hard (went elbow tip to shin last month kickboxing and I had a stinger all the way up to my fingertips) I'm not sure. The area right behind the tip I would use on a hard target though, some kenpoists, this is what they mean by elbow, the area just behind it. throw a spear with the tip into a hard surface like a wall and then use the just behind area. the tip will experience a lot more discomfort. Flatlander, that is very deep. You have either dazzled me with brilliance, or what was the other one? Baffled me with something? Just kidding. loki09789, that's interesting, do you teach the punch as a penetrating strike to points on the head later?


 
To my the elbow can be used in many ways. You can throw and elbow horizontally and hit a taget like the face using the side of the arm either before or after the joint. You can also brace your elbow and step drag as the point enters a soft tissue zone, a place like the eye socket.


----------



## lonecoyote (Mar 2, 2005)

Well said, Mr. Sutherland. I agree.


----------



## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2005)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> loki09789, that's interesting, do you teach the punch as a penetrating strike to points on the head later?


Punching, including all the variations on hand positions (finger pokes, standard fist, 'eagle fist'....) work best on 'soft targets' because they will penetrate w/o doing as much damage to the striker.

I explain it this way in class:  Little bones in the hand will lose over time against the big bones in the skull and body.  Your more likely to twist a wrist, hit with the wrong part of the knuckle or something.  "Hard" Targets (bone, densely packed muscle groups....) will loose out (at least within the system of movement that we use) when you strike them with a slapping/whipping hand motion and do less damage to the striker.


----------



## Makalakumu (Mar 4, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I explain it this way in class:  Little bones in the hand will lose over time against the big bones in the skull and body.  Your more likely to twist a wrist, hit with the wrong part of the knuckle or something.  "Hard" Targets (bone, densely packed muscle groups....) will loose out (at least within the system of movement that we use) when you strike them with a slapping/whipping hand motion and do less damage to the striker.



This is exactly what I tell my students.

In Tang Soo Do, one of our principles is the theory of Yin and Yang in striking.  This thread is pretty much illustrating what that theory states.  

I can't tell you how many times I've seen broken hands doing MMA (myself included).  One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of these Karate styles that "punch everywhere" also did makiwara training.  I did that kind training for a summer and I could punch through bricks and ice, but I ended up losing the feeling in my hands.  

I wouldn't recommend it.  

upnorthkyosa

ps - my hands recovered, but I am one of the lucky ones.


----------



## still learning (Mar 4, 2005)

Hello, How many times have we heard of people breaking their hands (fist) when striking the head? Certain parts of our skulls are thick bones and the fist has many tiny ones. The head is not flat when hit and knuckles will get broken. Not all the time this will happen, you may want to hit with the palm instead, but when it does? You will lose? because you will not be able to fight back as hard? ....Just my thoughts....Aloha

 Hard and soft is important to know!  Is this taught in all systems?


----------



## Kenpodoc (Mar 4, 2005)

I've heard Sean Kelley say "Slap the head, Punch the body, Kick the legs." A darn good Mantra in my opinion.

Jeff


----------



## Makalakumu (Mar 5, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I've heard Sean Kelley say "Slap the head, Punch the body, Kick the legs." A darn good Mantra in my opinion.
> 
> Jeff



 :asian: 

That has just become next week's lesson in the dojang.


----------

