# Does competition have its uses?



## Mush (Feb 19, 2005)

When comparing the competitive element of boxing and say Muay Thai, do you think Jeet Kune Do misses out in terms of the regular full blooded matches that amateurs/professionals take part in. Obviously JKD can never take place in a competitive environment as rules are involved and many aspects of the art would be outlawed. Although boxing and Muay Thai bouts are not a recreation of a street fight, they do preprare the individual for facing an opponent who is looking to do you serious damage. Within their fields you're faced with the adrenalin rush and stamina sapping nervous energy.
Do many JKD schools/instructors open themselves up to this kind of combat. I guess I'm trying to say I feel in those fields they have an edge in terms of the preparation and experience these kind of competition bouts provide. Even though they involve rules they are as near to the real thing that these sports/arts are allowed to do. Can you make a judgement on a professional Muay Thai kickboxer with 50 bouts under his belt, excellent fitness and body conditioning with say a JKD instructor with 20 years of experience whoi has sparred for years at 60% with a lot of their tools limited during sparring also. 
Say both guys had an encounter in a street. Who is the better prepared- the competition fighter who has vast experience of trying to inflict damage (within rules) or a JKD exponent who has never executed many of his most dangerous tools on a real person?
I guess the big issue is how hard the sparring goes at all the various JKD schools around the world. My thinking is that a boxer or Muay Thai guy is gonna know what the tools he uses are capable of due to regular fights. Is a JKD guy gonna know if his technique is good enough if he has never executed it before in such a situation.
I might be opening myself to get shot down here but I'm just opening up the debate to get feedback


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## DuneViking (Feb 19, 2005)

Intersting, look forward to hearing from the JKD world


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## achilles (Feb 20, 2005)

A lot of JKD can be done in the ring.  While the eye jab, groin kick and knee kick are not allowed in most competition, a lot of the the stereotypic JKD tools (i.e. lead punch, backfist, side kick, etc.) can be used in competition and fare well.  JKD was one of the first arts to use safety equipment to spar all out so I don't think that JKD can't be used in the ring to some degree.  I think that Kevin Seaman's group does some competition in the golden gloves and maybe other venues as well.  One of the JKD Wednesday Night Group members fights competitively I think also.  I had an amateur boxing match a while back where I fought with a strong side lead and through chung chuies and won.  JKD is a versatile art.


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 20, 2005)

At my school we often go out to the parking lot and put on shin guards, rib guards, gloves, and motorcycle helmets then duke it out. We also practice without the gear (except gloves) and simply disallow certain strikes. The senior group of students are all well trained enough that no one gets hurt too badly. 

We also practice a modified version of Chi-Sao, that incorporates kicking, sweeps, and throws along with the regular hand-work. By the time practice ends 2 hours later there's always been some fierce competition. In addition we do some all out groundfighting wearing light (4 oz) gloves and headgear. Sometimes we mix up those practices by beginning in Chi-Sao and then contiuing to a finish, standing up or on the floor. 

I feel the level of competition in my training is and has been adequate, though I certainly can't speak for anyone else.


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## Mush (Feb 21, 2005)

I guess when you have a group who are willing and of a similar level you can go for it a bit. I'm not at that sort of level yet. At the moment I'm sparring with my instructor but it's just punching with front kicks (with headguards), no takedowns or grappling involved or kicks to the legs.
My problem is different sparring partners as the turnover of students is high at the club and the difference in ability. Basically I'm the only student willing/able to train pretty much everyday. 
Back to the point I made though. The sparring you talk about going on is including headgear, rib guards, shin guards. Do you also spar without, say just gloves to get some conditioning to blows to various parts of the body. (i.e. kicks to the thigh) Conditioning of the legs and shins is not something I've heard or read about much within JKD. Say with Muay Thai there seems to be a lot of conditioning of the legs for impact. For receiving blows and giving them out. Again in their competition there are just the gloves for protection. Matches I've seen have included knees to the body, elbows to the top of the head. Would you say this kind of conditioning is superior to what many JKD people practice?


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 21, 2005)

===>We also practice without the gear (except gloves) and simply disallow certain strikes. <===

By "certain strikes" I mean hits to the throat, eyes, kneecaps, foot stomps, and groin attacks. We also have an unspoken agreement to keep headbutts to extrmely light contact and be careful not to break anyone's nose.

For shin conditioning I use the rolling pin method. We also do intense forearm conditioning drills.


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## Mush (Feb 22, 2005)

Mr_Scissors said:
			
		

> ===>For shin conditioning I use the rolling pin method.


What's this technique then??? Do you mean tapping along your shins to condition them???


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 22, 2005)

Sit with your knees bent up in front of you. Then take a rolling pin and roll it up and down your shins, pressing as hard as you can handle. Stop when your shins feel like their on fire. By this time you should have a red line up and down your shin. After doing this every other day for a while you won't really feel any pain when you are hit in the shin. You should feel as though your trying to smooth out the little bumps in the bone as you roll the pin. 

Hitting the shins hard enough to condition them can lead to micro-fractures and blood clots, or so I've been told. For that reason I roll my shins instead.


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## SammyB57 (Feb 22, 2005)

Adrenaline management.


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## Mush (Feb 23, 2005)

Mr_Scissors said:
			
		

> Hitting the shins hard enough to condition them can lead to micro-fractures and blood clots, or so I've been told. For that reason I roll my shins instead.


Great tip that. I'll keep that in mind and try it out. Thanks. So do you think Thai boxers are prone to such occurences of clots/micro-fractures. Do you know if there is nerve damage done at all as well?
Any idea why the shins are susceptible to clots, microfractures? Are you hands not from conditioning using sand bags/ beanbags/pebbles etc?


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## masherdong (Feb 23, 2005)

I think competition always has some good uses.  You actually have a chance to try to practice your techniques at full speed and with someone physically coming at you.  Now, I feel that it should be a requirement to go but it is good experience to do them.


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 23, 2005)

NOTE: I am not a medical professional. :-offtopic

From what I understand the reason the shin is subject to microfractures is because the front surface of the bone is uneven. if you run your hand down your shin it will feel bumpy, almost as though it has tiny fins. If you simply beat your shins, you will be hitting them unevenly and the impact can cause fractures. You can condition them with normal sandbag kicking, but that takes forever. 

A doctor I know told me that the tiny pieces of bone can get caught in ruptured blood vessels caused by the impact and create clots. 

On the subject of nerve damage, yes there is nerve damage being done. ON PURPOSE. When you roll the shins as I have described you will basically crush some of the sensitive tissue around the shin. I can still feel pressure and extremes of heat and cold, but that's it. If I smack my shin on the coffee table it will bruise like normal, but I never feel any pain.


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## Mush (Feb 24, 2005)

Mr_Scissors said:
			
		

> NOTE: I am not a medical professional. :-offtopic


 Yeah sorry about that...got a bit carried away with the inquisitive questions there! Thanks for the knowledge though!!!
Do you follow the contours of the shin (i.e roll it slightly to the left, then centre, slightly to the right) as your rolling or stick to the edge of the shin?


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## Mr_Scissors (Feb 24, 2005)

Stick to the egde.  if it hurts, you're probably doing it right  %-}


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## Hawkeye (Mar 25, 2005)

Input to two points.  First every martial art I'm aware of has aspects or -strikes/attacks dis-allowed in competition.  As a Kenpo practicioner there are a great deal of strikes, gouges, punches, kicks....that aren't allowed in competition.  

That being said when I train people I use the RedMan XP suit.  That way we can protect the victim/instructor and allow students to strike areas at a much higher degree without hurting anyone.  Repeating what someone said above - competition allows you to work out moves and counters on someone that you don't spar with regularly.  You can't anticipate where or how they will come at you.  I use competition to work on specific attacks or defenses.  Not being overly concerned on the final outcome - either way I learn how to modify or use that technique to its potential.

Hawkeye.


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## JKogas (Mar 28, 2005)

Competition is a good thing.  It's a test of one's abilities against an individual attempting to do the same thing (ie. knock you out) to you, that you are to him.

Sort of like a real fight.  


-John


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## Flatlander (Apr 5, 2005)

I think that the answer to this question is experience.  What I mean by that is, a person who has spent a lot of time training honestly using resistance and aliveness will be effective.  I think that there is long term value in competing, in that you get an opportunity to be put to the test.  You get to be put under pressure against an unpredictable opponent; that's bound to be a learning experience.

However, I think that placing oneself under a training regime wherein one trains to operate within a framework of rules can be damaging to one's repertoire or "combat creativity" in the short term.  You fight how you train, right?

In the long term, I don't think that this would be much of a problem.  Once someone gets to the point where they've been training for a long time, there's such a vast amount of experience to draw from, what they've been doing in the short term will become less relevant if they're pressed to perform spontaneously.

IMO.


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Apr 7, 2005)

Hey guys, why cant JKD people compete? I fought in the gloves and I have a student that competes regularly in Brasilian Jiu Jitsu.JKD is not the end all deadliest style in the world and I dont know who says that it is.I know JKD people that compete in all aspects of full contact competition.Sure you cant eye or throat jab or chew on someones ear but hell, anybody in any art can compete if they want to.Going against someone you dont know in a full contact competition of any type will help you in your quest to not getting your butt kicked in  the streetBarry   www.combatartsusa.com


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## JKogas (Apr 8, 2005)

Let's put it _this_ way: A "JKD man" _should_ be able to fight under _any_ circumstances and within any environment. That would include THE RING or CAGE.

I've heard people before say, "Ah, I might not be able to fight in the ring with rules, but _without_ rules, I'm a DEMON" (etc., etc)

That's what their _mouth_ says (if you get my meaning)

If you can only fight under certain circumstances, that to me IS NOT indicative of what it means to be a JKD man (or woman).

Competition doesn't have to necessarily mean that you need to be a PRO fighter, or maybe even an _amateur_ fighter - it could mean only that you spar and roll as often as possible, against as many people as possible. That's still the same thing basically. I mean, you ARE all sparring, right??! I don't see competition as really being that much different.


-John


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Apr 9, 2005)

Great reply, as a fulltime JKD instructor I try to dispel the myths of what JKd is and isnt.When it comes down to it its often about the man and not the art, Barry www.combatartsusa.com


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## Drag'n (Apr 12, 2005)

> "I don't see competition as being that much different."
> 
> I disagree. I spar regularly, but even in full contact sparring there is a certain amount of controll. The focus is on learning rather than on a KO.
> That little bit of extra agression and the fact that you often know nothing about your opponent makes it(competition) a very different experience to sparring in the dojo.
> ...


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## Feisty Mouse (Apr 12, 2005)

JKogas said:
			
		

> Let's put it _this_ way: A "JKD man" _should_ be able to fight under _any_ circumstances and within any environment.


Or the "JKD woman".


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## DeLamar.J (Jun 17, 2005)

I think competition is very important to prove your art is useful. I know that men who need to prove there points are not wise, but part of me still belives that you need to show your not just another toothless tiger with all your stripes and colors.
People nowadays need TRUTH, and competition is the best way to give it. Not some point fighting crap either, I mean full contact kickboxing, ufc, ECT.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm going to make a comparison between hard or full contact sparring in a training environment and argument. Please bear with me while I make this unusual analogy.

In order to have a productive argument, the parties involved must be cooperating, and the goal should not be to bludgeon the interlocutor. Classical argument, when used correctly, should be about the search for truth.

I view Martial Arts in much the same way. I understand that this is a controversial view of what we do, but when I'm training with someone in my dojo, I do not have a competitive mindset. I do not intend to beat my partner. Instead, I want to learn from them. 

Now, can you learn from someone in sports? Yes, of course. That is how athletes progress, but the focus is different. It's about winning something, whether it is recognition or a prize. To me, Martial Arts should be about something else entirely.

This is the first time I've explained myself in this manner, so please be patient with me.


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## DeLamar.J (Jun 18, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> I'm going to make a comparison between hard or full contact sparring in a training environment and argument. Please bear with me while I make this unusual analogy.
> 
> In order to have a productive argument, the parties involved must be cooperating, and the goal should not be to bludgeon the interlocutor. Classical argument, when used correctly, should be about the search for truth.
> 
> ...



Dont worry about stating your opinion man, its ok. But here is where I disagree with you, when sparring, yes you want to learn instead of beating the person, but when you use your training in a REAL fight, you need to fight to win. You need to fight someone with the mindset of winning to really get the most from your training. And you can do that constructively through sport. 
Alot of people look at martial arts in the way you do, its not ment for sport its ment for something far more noble ect ect. I understand where your comming from. But through sport you are promoting martial arts, your getting the next best thing next to real fighting, your entertaining people, expressing yourself through martial arts, and in a controlled environment. Your learning what its like to fight full contact, that is so important. Your not disrespecting the arts by competing, your learning, and promoting it.
You will also make yourself known in the martial arts community, and can make  alot of friends that way. Compitition is a great thing as long as there is not to much ego and attitude involved, stay away from those types of organizations.  There really is alot of great things that come out of competing.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 18, 2005)

> Dont worry about stating your opinion man, its ok. But here is where I disagree with you, when sparring, yes you want to learn instead of beating the person, but when you use your training in a REAL fight, you need to fight to win. You need to fight someone with the mindset of winning to really get the most from your training. And you can do that constructively through sport.


I'm going to assume that you use the word "fight" in place of self-defense out of convenience. If not, so you're aware, I differentiate between the two. I'm rather fond of Marc MacYoung's interpretation in his article The difference between fighting and self-defense.

Now that that's out of the way, in a self-defense situation I am not going to use my training to win, I'm going to use it to survive. I see surviving and winning as two entirely different concepts. Traditionally, to win can mean to struggle, but modern interpretations often apply its use to sports, so we'd normally associate it with victory in a contest or with the act of earning. So, in this case, survival does not equate to winning. A strategic retreat (running), for example, is not often viewed as a successful win, but its applications for survival are invaluable.



> Alot of people look at martial arts in the way you do, its not ment for sport its ment for something far more noble ect ect. I understand where your comming from. But through sport you are promoting martial arts, your getting the next best thing next to real fighting, your entertaining people, expressing yourself through martial arts, and in a controlled environment. Your learning what its like to fight full contact, that is so important. Your not disrespecting the arts by competing, your learning, and promoting it.
> 
> You will also make yourself known in the martial arts community, and can make alot of friends that way. Compitition is a great thing as long as there is not to much ego and attitude involved, stay away from those types of organizations. There really is alot of great things that come out of competing.


If you view survival as noble, then yes, I see Martial Arts as a noble endeavor. The promotion of Martial Arts is not my goal. I study a very old and very traditional Martial Art that has survived many centuries beyond the public eye. It is now perhaps more public than it has ever been before, but even then it is a relatively obscure Martial Art.

I don't see sport as the next best thing to self-defense. I originally come from a sport Martial Art background, and I find the differences between sport and reality to be significant indeed. I am not suggesting that sport doesn't have beneficial applications, but in terms of preparing someone for real life altercations I find it rather unsatisfactory.


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## DeLamar.J (Jun 18, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> I'm going to assume that you use the word "fight" in place of self-defense out of convenience. If not, so you're aware, I differentiate between the two. I'm rather fond of Marc MacYoung's interpretation in his article The difference between fighting and self-defense.
> 
> Now that that's out of the way, in a self-defense situation I am not going to use my training to win, I'm going to use it to survive. I see surviving and winning as two entirely different concepts. Traditionally, to win can mean to struggle, but modern interpretations often apply its use to sports, so we'd normally associate it with victory in a contest or with the act of earning. So, in this case, survival does not equate to winning. A strategic retreat (running), for example, is not often viewed as a successful win, but its applications for survival are invaluable.
> 
> ...



Well, whatever floats your boat I guess. Win, survive, same thing IMO unless you really wanna start getting all technical on me. Either way I like compitition. If I fight on the street I want to win, if I fight in the ring I want to win. I guess survive is a better term for a street fight if you want to get proper.
I guarantee that a martial artist who competes in full contact events will SURVIVE as you like to say, more often than one who does not. Its a fact. You at least have to spar very hard to get the full effect of oyur training. Sometimes you have to get a little raw to prove this point to some.
People just require a little butt kicken to show them the facts, which are, if you want to defend yourself in a REAL situation, all the pitty pat crap aint gonna help you, you have to train hard, hit hard and take hard hits, period. If you dont, then your going to get your butt kicked.


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## Flatlander (Jun 18, 2005)

I don't think that competing in a structured event is necessary, but for some, it will be a valuable experience.  What I do feel is that the same benefits can be achieved in the dojo - depending on how you spar.  You can run the same type of rules in the dojo spar as you do in any organized event.

 Having said that, you may, in an organized event, get the opportunity to roll with people with different artistic backgrounds, training styles, etc.  That's a definite positive.

 In terms of the "competitive" nature, with regard to its translation to defense on the street, I don't think that we can speak in absolutes.  For some, it may help.  They may gain the confidence necessary to dominate an attacker by competing in the ring, but not _all_ folks require that experience in order to _know_ how they'll react.  On the other hand, due to the competitive nature of the events in question, its entirely likely that a competitor would change their training regimine somewhat in order to prepare for an event.  For some, that may not be a palatable option.


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## Floating Egg (Jun 18, 2005)

That seems very sensible Flatlander. Perhaps it is better if we don't speak in absolutes.


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## JKD_Silat (Jul 21, 2005)

I compete in amateur kickboxing, and NHB to expose weaknesses against people whom I don't spar with every day in class. For me, It is very beneficial, and I always learn something new about myself, win or lose.


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