# Flinching



## SFC JeffJ (Feb 5, 2007)

We have a student who has just recently been promoted to 3rd Kyu (out of 5 kyu ranks) and there is a bit of a problem with him.  Whenever my wife or I either start to teach a technique to him or go to use him as Uke for a demonstration for the rest of the class, he always flinches away from the contact.  I'm not sure how this started.  He did a bit of this when he began then got over it.  Now it's even worse than it was then.  I'm not sure what caused this to start up again and even get worse, but does anyone have any suggestions on how we might deal with this and hopefully get him over it?

Thanks,

Jeff


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## Carol (Feb 5, 2007)

What kind of contact?  Is it "ordinary" blunt force or is it locks/nerve strikes?


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 5, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> What kind of contact?  Is it "ordinary" blunt force or is it locks/nerve strikes?


Mainly locks and nerves.


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## Carol (Feb 5, 2007)

Certain medications can mess with a person's nervous system.  Not sure if that's a factor with your student or not but if his sensitivity has changed...that could be the reason. 

I'm not sure of a way around it.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 5, 2007)

I actually just asked him about that (in a different context, didn't want him to think I was looking down at him about the flinching) last night.  He's on no meds at all. 

Jeff


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## Carol (Feb 5, 2007)

Not sure.  I have a terrible time with locks and nerve strikes myself so...I don't really have an answer other than limiting the amount of stuff I do and having my partner take it really easy with me. :idunno:


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## bignick (Feb 5, 2007)

Maybe just be straightforward about it.  Talk to him after class one day and mention that you've noticed the flinching and ask if there's something specifically with the techniques that has made him nervous or uncomfortable.  

He may not even realize it.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 6, 2007)

bignick said:


> Maybe just be straightforward about it.  Talk to him after class one day and mention that you've noticed the flinching and ask if there's something specifically with the techniques that has made him nervous or uncomfortable.
> 
> He may not even realize it.


I figured that would be the best course of action.  

I got to thinking, and I'm wondering now that he's got some color on his belt and we really aren't taking it easy on him anymore that might be the cause of it.  We've also been doing a lot of nerve manipulation and maki-komi in conjunction with the locks as of late.  Hell, that might be the reason he's started to flinch again.

Jeff


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## Kevdak (Feb 28, 2007)

I am no doctor, but perhaps it maybe a home issue e.g. family abuse?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> We have a student who has just recently been promoted to 3rd Kyu (out of 5 kyu ranks) and there is a bit of a problem with him. Whenever my wife or I either start to teach a technique to him or go to use him as Uke for a demonstration for the rest of the class, he always flinches away from the contact. I'm not sure how this started. He did a bit of this when he began then got over it. Now it's even worse than it was then. I'm not sure what caused this to start up again and even get worse, but does anyone have any suggestions on how we might deal with this and hopefully get him over it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff


Make him stand in a horse and beat on him. The longer he can stoicly stand there the better his timing. He is flinching because he is afraid. The regular beating will teach him to not only trust you, but that there are worse things than getting beat on by your fellow martial artists. Don't just pick on him though, make everyone do it.
Sean


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## KeeblerElf (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm going to agree with Kevdak and say there may be something that you don't know about like abuse (it's the extreme side of things but you never know) and if thats the case, beating on him could make it worse instead of better.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2007)

KeeblerElf said:


> I'm going to agree with Kevdak and say there may be something that you don't know about like abuse (it's the extreme side of things but you never know) and if thats the case, beating on him could make it worse instead of better.


We all got problems and this is a contact art, how is conditioning going to hurt? This is a trust issue, not pain tolerance.
Sean


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## Gary Crawford (Feb 28, 2007)

This sounds like a possible psychological issue to me.  Definatly worth investigating. How old of a student is he? If he is a juvinal,ask his parents about it. Maybe this is one of the reasons he is there in the first place.  Sometimes parents use MA training to help overcome their kid's self esteem issues.


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## Carol (Feb 28, 2007)

*shrug*  I disagree. It may be a trust issue but not necessarily.

For me, locks are totally a pain issue.  I've flinched and shrieked from doing these people that I trust...including my training partner and...believe me it is NOT a trust issue.  We train in Silat and do stuff to each other that is a way more dangerous than a joint lock.  I trust a guy 100 pounds heavier to perform an application that, if done at full speed, will either kill me or leave me as a quadraplegic.  That's a lot of trust.  

There may be instructors that wail on students while they are made to stand in a horse stance.  The word for that that comes to my mind is not "conditioning".


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## INDYFIGHTER (Mar 1, 2007)

There may be instructors that wail on students while they are made to stand in a horse stance. The word for that that comes to my mind is not "conditioning".[/quote]


I actually thought that wasn't a bad idea but I envisioned using a pad or something.  I dunno, I notice if I'm not actively sparring for a while I'm a little nervous about taking a hit until I get hit.  Last night instead of having my private Kempo lesson I asked my instructor to 'beat' on me instead.  He puts on some karate gloves and throws job, backhands, crosses and hooks at me as I block, bob and weave and step out of the way.  The better I do the faster they come.  I agree the subject just needs to be brought up with the student.  Even if there is abuse at home you'll be doing the student a favor breaking this habit and isn't that why he's taking lessons, to learn to defend himself against anyone?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 1, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> *shrug* I disagree. It may be a trust issue but not necessarily.
> 
> For me, locks are totally a pain issue. I've flinched and shrieked from doing these people that I trust...including my training partner and...believe me it is NOT a trust issue. We train in Silat and do stuff to each other that is a way more dangerous than a joint lock. I trust a guy 100 pounds heavier to perform an application that, if done at full speed, will either kill me or leave me as a quadraplegic. That's a lot of trust.
> 
> There may be instructors that wail on students while they are made to stand in a horse stance. The word for that that comes to my mind is not "conditioning".


Again its a contact art. Nobody said to break bones. If your constantly in a defensive mode during training your probably at the wrong school. Look, all I'm saying is that if you can't trust a guy to hit you while your in a horse, then you shouldn't trust him in a technique line.
Sean
Sean


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## rutherford (Mar 1, 2007)

Huh.  Here I thought it was a joke.

Is he only flinching during the demonstrations and not during training?


My suggestion: have him close his eyes.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Make him stand in a horse and beat on him. The longer he can stoicly stand there the better his timing. He is flinching because he is afraid. The regular beating will teach him to not only trust you, but that there are worse things than getting beat on by your fellow martial artists. Don't just pick on him though, make everyone do it.
> Sean



Outside of any issues at home or anything like he might have gotten hurt at some point and told nobody, I think that is pretty good advice.  We do something similar as a drill or exercise to work on fear reactivity.  That is what causes that flinch normally.  

We will start out with slow but deliberate slaps to the face (not hard but full contact).  It will be annoying for the first few times but will eventually become less so.  Then we will do punches (slow, deliberate, and full contact) to the chest and of course combine our movements into it after a few times of feeling it.  We will also do strikes to the stomach following the same procedure.  After a few rounds of each the uke will follow up with a similar blow to the tori as part of their responsive movement.  This way they exchange blows and get used to the contact.  

Again, this isn't done full force, but maybe 30% or so and then can be cranked up just a tad but you don't want to injure them, just get them over that annoyance stage.  Mentally, the first few times the mind just seems to lock up, but after a few reps it will settle down where they can think.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 1, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Outside of any issues at home or anything like he might have gotten hurt at some point and told nobody, I think that is pretty good advice. We do something similar as a drill or exercise to work on fear reactivity. That is what causes that flinch normally.
> 
> We will start out with slow but deliberate slaps to the face (not hard but full contact). It will be annoying for the first few times but will eventually become less so. Then we will do punches (slow, deliberate, and full contact) to the chest and of course combine our movements into it after a few times of feeling it. We will also do strikes to the stomach following the same procedure. After a few rounds of each the uke will follow up with a similar blow to the tori as part of their responsive movement. This way they exchange blows and get used to the contact.
> 
> Again, this isn't done full force, but maybe 30% or so and then can be cranked up just a tad but you don't want to injure them, just get them over that annoyance stage. Mentally, the first few times the mind just seems to lock up, but after a few reps it will settle down where they can think.


I agree and concur%-} The idea is to cause pain not injury. Pain is just pain and it effects you on an emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual level. As I have said we all struggle with these facets. Best thing to do is confront pain head on and see where we are effected the most and why.
Sean


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 1, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Outside of any issues at home or anything like he might have gotten hurt at some point and told nobody, I think that is pretty good advice. We do something similar as a drill or exercise to work on fear reactivity. That is what causes that flinch normally.
> 
> We will start out with slow but deliberate slaps to the face (not hard but full contact). It will be annoying for the first few times but will eventually become less so. Then we will do punches (slow, deliberate, and full contact) to the chest and of course combine our movements into it after a few times of feeling it. We will also do strikes to the stomach following the same procedure. After a few rounds of each the uke will follow up with a similar blow to the tori as part of their responsive movement. This way they exchange blows and get used to the contact.
> 
> Again, this isn't done full force, but maybe 30% or so and then can be cranked up just a tad but you don't want to injure them, just get them over that annoyance stage. Mentally, the first few times the mind just seems to lock up, but after a few reps it will settle down where they can think.


 
This is an excellent way to get over the fear of getting hit.
Martial arts are about contact......if you're flinching, you're not doing the right things.......if you still can't get over it....take up chess.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 1, 2007)

Scott Sonnon has a couple of programs that we incorporate into our training and they are the Fear Reactivity and the Shockability programs.  They work well for getting people over the fear and being able to receive an attack.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 2, 2007)

BlackCatBonz said:


> This is an excellent way to get over the fear of getting hit.
> Martial arts are about contact......if you're flinching, you're not doing the right things.......if you still can't get over it....take up chess.


Chess without contact? You have obviously never won a game of Chess against me. 
Sean


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Scott Sonnon has a couple of programs that we incorporate into our training and they are the Fear Reactivity and the Shockability programs.  They work well for getting people over the fear and being able to receive an attack.



Actually, he doesn't sell those anymore.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 2, 2007)

rutherford said:


> Actually, he doesn't sell those anymore.



Oh really?  Thanks for the update.  They were good programs.


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 2, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Chess without contact? You have obviously never won a game of Chess against me.
> Sean


 
hmmm ....sounds like my kind of chess game


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## wade (Mar 3, 2007)

Common guys, it's all about the pain. If the student is flinching it's because they know they are going to be hurt. The best thing to do is work with another student for awhile and when they start flinching and the first student has relaxed a bit, go back to him. If you have more than just 2 students this works a lot better. One of the first things my students learns is to always volunteer some one else to be demonstrated on when they ask a question about a technique. It took me awhile to catch on, but I did and now we all (meaning me) have fun when I show the students how a particular technique is supposed to work. But I do agree, the best way to learn technique, especially joints and pressure points is to have them applied to you. Until you do you won't fully appreciate how painful or ineffective they can really be.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 3, 2007)

wade said:


> Common guys, it's all about the pain. If the student is flinching it's because they know they are going to be hurt. The best thing to do is work with another student for awhile and when they start flinching and the first student has relaxed a bit, go back to him. If you have more than just 2 students this works a lot better. One of the first things my students learns is to always volunteer some one else to be demonstrated on when they ask a question about a technique. It took me awhile to catch on, but I did and now we all (meaning me) have fun when I show the students how a particular technique is supposed to work. But I do agree, the best way to learn technique, especially joints and pressure points is to have them applied to you. Until you do you won't fully appreciate how painful or ineffective they can really be.


No, its all about timing.
Sean


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## wade (Mar 3, 2007)

OK Sean, you lost me on that one? Could you please explain. Oh yeah, type slow cause I don't read fast. Thanks.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 5, 2007)

wade said:


> OK Sean, you lost me on that one? Could you please explain. Oh yeah, type slow cause I don't read fast. Thanks.


Pain is just pain, your reaction and recovery time, so that your are functional from moment to moment, is timing. And thats what this is all about.:ultracool 
Sean


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## kidswarrior (Mar 28, 2007)

wade said:


> Common guys, it's all about the pain. If the student is flinching it's because they know they are going to be hurt. The best thing to do is work with another student for awhile and when they start flinching and the first student has relaxed a bit, go back to him.


 
I like this solution best. Some of my street savvy students wouldn't show any emotion if you were sawing off their fingers. Then at the other end I have some elementary kids who have a little more fear of pain. Everyone has to grow at their own pace, and will have different things they have to overcome. I would just have to explain to someone who wasn't growing in pain/fear tolerance at equal pace with the belt levels, that it could hold up any future promotions---which isn't necessarily bad, as long as they understand it.



> But I do agree, the best way to learn technique, especially joints and pressure points is to have them applied to you. Until you do you won't fully appreciate how painful or ineffective they can really be.


 
I agree, too. Pain is the premier teacher. But how much pressure is applied and at what stage of training is very subjective. Sometimes, less is more. Remember, students come to us trusting us. Applying too much pain too soon can breach that trust, if we aren't careful. My rule of thumb is, lower belts get very little contact/pressure; those with obvious street creds coming in can take more, sooner, though. And as far as student-to-student contact, safety is always first. Don't want any Rambos huritng a fellow nooB.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 28, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Not sure. I have a terrible time with locks and nerve strikes myself so...I don't really have an answer other than limiting the amount of stuff I do and having my partner take it really easy with me. :idunno:


 
To me, this is perfectly fine. If it takes very little pressure for a student to 'get it' (feel the pain, so remember the lesson), then why apply more? And having a good understanding with training partners is _really_ important--and partly the responsibility of the head instructor (to set a culture of trust and safety). Students will develop more tolerance over time, at their own pace. Becoming a proficient MA is a marathon, not a sprint.


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