# So... you wanna plan a mission to Mars?



## jks9199 (Aug 13, 2012)

OK, this article about meal planning for a manned Mars voyage made me think...

One of the things that I've heard come up several times is the issue of how do you store two or three years worth of food and other stores like oxygen & water for the mission.  Maybe I'm just dumb.  I see it as pretty easy to solve...  You don't.  You grow some on the way.  And you send some ahead of you.  Let's look compare it for a moment with a backpacking trip.  If it's a big enough/long enough trip, you set up some caches along the way to pick up food, since you can't carry it all with you.  Maybe you mail them to General Delivery in a town along your way, or have a friend hold it for you and deliver it.  You don't try to carry what you can't carry...

So, why not do the same thing for a Mars mission?  Orbital mechanics are well known.  Over the months and years preceeding the trip, you launch a series of "supply boxes", on orbits that are designed to intersect with the mission when it's on the way, and especially on the return trip....  Build some redundancy into each so that they might have to go on short rations, but they can miss one, and make up the difference.

Thoughts on that?  How about other thoughts about a Mars trip?  What's needed?  Will they have to find a way to generate some simulation of gravity?  I kind of think they will, probably some sort of centrifuge or spinning the ship...  Just seems likely that they'll have to do that to keep the astronauts healthy and functional.

How big should the crew be?  How about the ship?


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## granfire (Aug 13, 2012)

well, the problem is, we don't have friends along the way to mars 

Could they make sure they can rendezvous with the food transport?

it's been a while when I heard a couple of morning DJs discuss that (I think the gal was blond...I mean BLOND blond!) as how they ought o treat the journey to mars (a scientific publication of some sort, I didn't catch who, really): The mars exploration ought to be treated like settling the North American continent: Send people out, they ought not expect to return. All nice and dandy, except that there was stuff growing in the Americas (even if it was hostiles and bears) and air to breath....
(now the BLOND moment: 'there is not GRAVITY on Mars' HAH. I about put the van in the ditch laughing so hard! Stupid)


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## Tgace (Aug 13, 2012)

Last I heard the plan was to launch supplies ahead of the mission and rendezvous with it enroute. And perhaps land some on the planet ahead of timevas well.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## elder999 (Aug 14, 2012)

We barely made it to the moon. Let me explain why.

After leaving low-earth orbit-like those of the space shuttle and space station-an astronaut is subjected to markedly increased radiation in the form of cosmic rays-this is simply ambient radiation from the environment. He's also subject to the chance of an increase in this ambient radiation in the form of solar flares-they were playing the odds against this happening when they went to the moon, and it didn't. They had plans to decrease their exposure should such an event take place, and to leave the moon immediately if one were to on its way -the lunar module did not offer the same protection as the command capsule, and they'd have been screwed on the surface of the moon.In fact, if a solar flare had occured, I think they'd have been screwed anyway-an event like that would take a little more than 8 minutes to get to the moon. But we played the odds every time, and they lucked out. The trip itself was of such short duration that their exposure to ambient cosmic rays was manageable-the short trip also bettered their odds of not encountering a solar flare.
As it was, their exposure to cosmic rays exceeded all occupational guidelines for radiation exposure at the time, even that of airline pilots-who receive a significant annual dose due to long periods of time spent at high altitude.

A trip to Mars might take nearly two years to get there, with our present level of technology, though it could take as little as 260 days-8 months or so- when Mars is closest to earth, an event that takes place every 16 years or so, and one that _Curiosity]i], our Mars probe, recently took advantage of. Assume a few months or years on the surface, and a two year return trip. We simply do not have the material developed to provide adequate shielding for such an endeavor.It's technologically unfeasable, for the present.

You wanna plan a trip to Mars? Forget about getting the food there-logistics for that are relatively conceivable.Go into materials science, and come up with a lightweight substitute for three feet of lead impregnated concrete.

Growing food on the way is a good idea, though! Likewise, there's nothing that says the vessel has to be built on earth-the whole mission could conceivably be developed from an underground base on the moon, and, since it would launch from the moon, it could be made with heavier shielding-maybe even concrete....:lol:_


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## Sukerkin (Aug 14, 2012)

A good thumbnail of the very real hurdles to be overcome there, Elder :nods:.

Yet some crazy Dutch guys {are there any other sorts? :lol:} are planning on getting there pretty soon:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-06-01/news/31965738_1_mars-one-manned-mission-planetary-rover


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## granfire (Aug 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Growing food on the way is a good idea, though! Likewise, there's nothing that says the vessel has to be built on earth-the whole mission could conceivably be developed from an underground base on the moon, and, since it would launch from the moon, it could be made with heavier shielding-maybe even concrete....:lol:




GAWD, now you got me thinking of that old TV show we Germans called 'Moon Base Alpha1'


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## Sukerkin (Aug 14, 2012)

Space 1999?

http://www.cultbritannia.co.uk/2012/07/31/human-decision-required/


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## jks9199 (Aug 14, 2012)

granfire said:


> GAWD, now you got me thinking of that old TV show we Germans called 'Moon Base Alpha1'



Is this the one?
[video=youtube_share;8WZW4groJro]http://youtu.be/8WZW4groJro[/video]

Just for fun -- I would assume that a real Mars trip would start from orbit.  I'd expect it to have a lander vessel, and to use anything from Soyuz to one of the commercial orbit vehicles in development to get the crew up there from Earth.  There's just no logic in fighting Earth's gravity more than you have to...

Regarding the radiation...  What about using magnetic fields, essentially building a Van Allen belt to travel with the ship?  Or using enough shielding for the main living areas for average stuff, at acceptable risk, and a "storm cellar" to hide in during severe conditions?  (Note -- these aren't necessarily original ideas to me!  I've read a fair bit of science fiction, including plenty of hard sf...)


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## granfire (Aug 14, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Space 1999?
> 
> http://www.cultbritannia.co.uk/2012/07/31/human-decision-required/





jks9199 said:


> Is this the one?
> [video=youtube_share;8WZW4groJro]http://youtu.be/8WZW4groJro[/video]
> 
> Just for fun -- I would assume that a real Mars trip would start from orbit.  I'd expect it to have a lander vessel, and to use anything from Soyuz to one of the commercial orbit vehicles in development to get the crew up there from Earth.  There's just no logic in fighting Earth's gravity more than you have to...
> ...



Yep, that seems to be the one. Man, I had no idea it was THAT old.....

And I thought with gold foil and Seran wrap you were good in space...


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## cdunn (Aug 14, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Just for fun -- I would assume that a real Mars trip would start from orbit. I'd expect it to have a lander vessel, and to use anything from Soyuz to one of the commercial orbit vehicles in development to get the crew up there from Earth. There's just no logic in fighting Earth's gravity more than you have to...
> 
> Regarding the radiation... What about using magnetic fields, essentially building a Van Allen belt to travel with the ship? Or using enough shielding for the main living areas for average stuff, at acceptable risk, and a "storm cellar" to hide in during severe conditions? (Note -- these aren't necessarily original ideas to me! I've read a fair bit of science fiction, including plenty of hard sf...)



The trick is the gamma rays, which are really the only radiation that can penetrate skin anyway, and are usually held back by the mass of the atmosphere, iirc. They rip along at light speed, so you're not going to get any advance warning. You'd need a magnetic field the sorts of which we can only describe mathematically and drool over to significantly effect them... if you can at all, and classically, you can't. You need to put raw mass between you and the source - Tungsten is good, and ironically, so is depleted Uranium. The trick, of course, is getting the weight to orbit.


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## elder999 (Aug 14, 2012)

cdunn said:


> The trick is the gamma rays, which are really the only radiation that can penetrate skin anyway, and are usually held back by the mass of the atmosphere, iirc. They rip along at light speed, so you're not going to get any advance warning. You'd need a magnetic field the sorts of which we can only describe mathematically and drool over to significantly effect them... if you can at all, and classically, you can't. You need to put raw mass between you and the source - Tungsten is good, and ironically, so is depleted Uranium. The trick, of course, is getting the weight to orbit.



Not exactly. Beta radiation, essentially energetic electrons, (or beta +, which is energetic positrons, or anti-matter electrons) can be stopped by a an inch of plastic, or paper, or thin sheets of metal, but penetrates skin pretty well. In fact, it's used in radiation treatments for certain growths.

Gamma is basically high energy photons: light that doesn't really know its place, and, yes, it can penetrate quite a bit.

Cosmic rays are primarily composed of other subatomic particles, though a low percentage of them will be beta, beta+, and ga,usually 1% or less. The remainder is made up of hydrogen atoms, or protons-nearly 90%, and helium atoms, and your high energy gamma rays. In any case, all of these occur at a sufficiently high enough energy to pass through the atmosphere, through skin, and through the earth.

Cosmic rays? Your soaking in them. :lfao:

Of course, a majority are deflected by the earth's magnetic field. Some get through-hence the higher radiation dose for airline personnel.  In any case, they are all worthy of consideration in the total dose for interplanetary travel.  A constant stream of protons for 8 months, followed by a long stay on a planet without a magnetic field and insufficent atmosphere? No thanks.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 14, 2012)

I seem to recall reading that a trip to Mars would be something like a 3-5 year deal, round trip. If that is correct, then hydroponics would seem to be the answer to a lot of the issues. Food production, CO2 elimination, O2 production, and even disposal of at least some human waste. 
As far as the air goes, you don't really need to carry as much as you might think. Divers have been using Closed Circuit Rebreathers for a lot of years, and can make a bottle of Oxygen not much bigger than a 2-liter soda last for an awful long time. At 1 ATM, 80CF of air will last me several hours. That same volume with CCR will last several days. Scrubber technology is well developed.


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## granfire (Aug 14, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I seem to recall reading that a trip to Mars would be something like a 3-5 year deal, round trip. If that is correct, then hydroponics would seem to be the answer to a lot of the issues. Food production, CO2 elimination, O2 production, and even disposal of at least some human waste.
> As far as the air goes, you don't really need to carry as much as you might think. Divers have been using Closed Circuit Rebreathers for a lot of years, and can make a bottle of Oxygen not much bigger than a 2-liter soda last for an awful long time. At 1 ATM, 80CF of air will last me several hours. That same volume with CCR will last several days. Scrubber technology is well developed.



Well as long as they don't think they can recreate a habitat...I think the Biosphere experiments have proven much of that idea to be major fail (though I am am sure something was learned from it...I hope....the movie was certainly informative )

and of course they can take hints from Star Trek...but I don't think the hollographic technology is quiet there yet...
(not to mention that you have to pick an elementary school for your kid before you leave for Mars )


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 15, 2012)

granfire said:


> Well as long as they don't think they can recreate a habitat...I think the Biosphere experiments have proven much of that idea to be major fail (though I am am sure something was learned from it...I hope....the movie was certainly informative )
> 
> and of course they can take hints from Star Trek...but I don't think the hollographic technology is quiet there yet...
> (not to mention that you have to pick an elementary school for your kid before you leave for Mars )



I think recreating a habitat is entirely reasonable. It's just going to take a LOT more than what the Biosphere experiments did. In liturature, they're called generation ships. We're talking hollow out a chunk of orbiting rock big enough for a couple hundred thousand people to live in, with enough room to keep expanding throughout the projected journey. It's one of the ideas on how interstellar colonization might be accomplished without violating the (currently known) laws of physics.


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## granfire (Aug 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think recreating a habitat is entirely reasonable. It's just going to take a LOT more than what the Biosphere experiments did. In liturature, they're called generation ships. We're talking hollow out a chunk of orbiting rock big enough for a couple hundred thousand people to live in, with enough room to keep expanding throughout the projected journey. It's one of the ideas on how interstellar colonization might be accomplished without violating the (currently known) laws of physics.



then again, the American continent is believed to have been settle by a groupd from Asia of no more than maybe 24 people....so the rock would not have to hold that many people. (and why would we want to export this many people to the galaxy...I thought we came in peace...)


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## cdunn (Aug 15, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Not exactly. Beta radiation, essentially energetic electrons, (or beta +, which is energetic positrons, or anti-matter electrons) can be stopped by a an inch of plastic, or paper, or thin sheets of metal, but penetrates skin pretty well. In fact, it's used in radiation treatments for certain growths.
> 
> Gamma is basically high energy photons: light that doesn't really know its place, and, yes, it can penetrate quite a bit.
> 
> ...



In honesty, though, is a constant stream of protons/ He[SUP]3[/SUP]+ even going to pose a threat? I wouldn't have thought them significantly ionizing, at least not enough to cause lasting harm.  

Even so, if the price was just a slow death by cancer or radiation poisoning... Hell, it might be worth it, to plant my feet on MARS.


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## elder999 (Aug 15, 2012)

cdunn said:


> In honesty, though, is a constant stream of protons/ He[SUP]3[/SUP]+ even going to pose a threat? I wouldn't have thought them significantly ionizing, at least not enough to cause lasting harm.
> 
> Even so, if the price was just a slow death by cancer or radiation poisoning... Hell, it might be worth it, to plant my feet on MARS.



Truly, galactic cosmic radiation in the form of atomic nuclei-from iron to uranium-produced from supernovae, are one of the smaller constituents, but one of the greatest hazards when it comes to cosmic rays-the things are everywhere in space, and travel from all directions (cosmic rays? you're soaking in them!:lfao: ) at the speed of light.Because of their high speed and mass, their ionization is fairly intense, and life threatening, though they are infrequent. Current shielding only reduces them by 20-30%-not particularly problematic for a short trip to the moon, but difficult when talking about a trip to Mars, the same as solar flare events, which are the single greatest hazard, and probably unavoidable on a long trip to Mars. NASA currently has no standards for radiation exposure/risk for interplanetary travel, but using the standards for low earth orbit, which call for an increased risk of 3% for radiation induced cancer, travel to Mars is not currently possible.


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## cdunn (Aug 15, 2012)

There will be those willing to make a one way trip.


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## elder999 (Aug 15, 2012)

cdunn said:


> There will be those willing to make a one way trip.



And when you got there, you might be better off-a weak magnetic field and thin atmosphere is better than none at all....especially if we had some sort of underground base or shielding.

The trip home might be a death sentence, though.....


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 15, 2012)

granfire said:


> then again, the American continent is believed to have been settle by a groupd from Asia of no more than maybe 24 people....so the rock would not have to hold that many people. (and why would we want to export this many people to the galaxy...I thought we came in peace...)



I presume one of the goals of this trip would be to establish a colony capable of sustaining not just life, but civilization. While 24 people might be able to colonize (if we're really careful about the genetic implications...) they certainly would not be able to maintain anything resembling our level of technology and civilization.


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## granfire (Aug 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I presume one of the goals of this trip would be to establish a colony capable of sustaining not just life, but civilization. While 24 people might be able to colonize (if we're really careful about the genetic implications...) they certainly would not be able to maintain anything resembling our level of technology and civilization.



well, i didn't imply to send only 24...but a heck less than several thousand...


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## elder999 (Aug 15, 2012)

granfire said:


> then again, the American continent is believed to have been settle by a groupd from Asia of no more than maybe 24 people....so the rock would not have to hold that many people. (and why would we want to export this many people to the galaxy...I thought we came in peace...)



nah. Current theory has it that there were several waves of migration, and that they might not all have crossed the Bering Land bridge-some may have been maritime, and come from Southeast Asia, or even what would become Japan, amongst the Jomon people.

It's sacrilege, but some of them may have even come from Europe.......


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## granfire (Aug 15, 2012)

elder999 said:


> nah. Current theory has it that there were several waves of migration, and that they might not all have crossed the Bering Land bridge-some may have been maritime, and come from Southeast Asia, or even what would become Japan, amongst the Jomon people.
> 
> It's sacrilege, but some of them may have even come from Europe.......




LOL, man I wish I could see that documentary again...they took DNA samples of the 'native' folk. Followed the trail from the African low lands through Asia to the Americas. 

No wonder we are so retarded: the gene pool was very shallow to begin with!


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