# Let's debate -- The three ways to open the forms



## Marnetmar (Mar 3, 2018)

This is just some food for thought and is intended to encourage debate.

Each Wing Chun form starts with an opening in which the arms are crossed down and then up. There are three primary ways to do this.

*The criss-cross method*

The first method is crossing the arms, and then bringing them straight up so that the arm on the bottom is now on top:







The purpose of this method is to mark the centerline but doesn't seem to have any practical applications. I dislike this way of doing it because I don't feel that there's a need to mark the centerline -- if you need to keep doing Siu Nim Tau in order to remember where your centerline is, remembering where your centerline is is probably the least of your worries!

*The rollover method*

The second method is to cross the arms and then roll them over each other to achieve the same result as the criss-cross method:






This is the method I was taught. The application for this move is a kwun sao to roll out of a trap. However, the problem with this method is that if your arms are too crossed over, you'll never be able to get out of the trap.

*The hybrid method*

The third method is to cross the arms and then slide them across each other so the hand that was on bottom stays on bottom:






This method has the same application as the first, but with the advantage that you won't tie yourself up no matter how far you are crossed over. Also, here's a little experiment I figured out that you can try: move both your arms forward in front of you like in Chum Kiu, but begin to cross them and bring them back towards your body as if you are being trapped. At the same time, keep pushing forward without resisting -- what happens?

Being the Wing Chun mad scientist that I am, I've been practicing the third method for the past year or so due to the reasons I've described.

What are your thoughts?


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## Martial D (Mar 3, 2018)

In the SLT I was taught, we did it like in the third, but separated into double tan before pulling it back.


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## Danny T (Mar 4, 2018)

There is more to wing chun than what is presented in the form/s.
Just because something is in a form mean it is the only manner something is to be done.
Form is more an outline or cliff notes of a larger study.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2018)

When you cross your arms, if your opponent presses on your outside arm against your body, your outside arm can jam your inside arm. In other words, your opponent can use one arm to control both of your arms while he will still have one free arm. It's not a good idea to be in that situation.


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## Danny T (Mar 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you cross your arms, if your opponent presses on your outside arm against your body, your outside arm can jam your inside arm. In other words, your opponent can use one arm to control both of your arms while he will still have one free arm. It's not a good idea to be in that situation.



Hence, a good practitioner will kwan sao with a piviot (rolling the arms) or bong with the upper while immediately applying a tan with the lower taking the line depending on how the pressure is applied. Each would be an application of the above techniques.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Hence, a good practitioner will kwan sao with a piviot (rolling the arms) or bong with the upper while immediately applying a tan with the lower taking the line depending on how the pressure is applied. Each would be an application of the above techniques.


You may be able to do that when your inside arm still have enough space (between your chest and your outside arm) to react. If your inside arm doesn't have enough space, or if your opponent controls both of your wrist, your inside arm may have difficult to pull out as Tan Shou.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 4, 2018)

Marnetmar said:


> The purpose of this method is to mark the centerline but doesn't seem to have any practical applications.


Out side looking in from the perspective of a different system.  In my system it is used to block a kick.  Crossing the arms helps to withstand the force of a rising kick. 

The cross upwards looks like it's training an escape.  Many times in martial arts, the forms trains both left and right side at the same time.  It saves time because you don't have to train right side then left side,  you train them together.  If you do that same movement but only use one arm to do that movement, then that movement is the same as an escape for a wrist grab.   

When you have 2 arms doing the same thing, but you are confused as to what the application is for, then try taking the application apart.  If it the technique makes more sense when you use 1 arm, then most likely you are training a technique a one arm technique, but you are training both right side and left side at the same time. But in application it's actually a one side technique.

There also may be secondary benefits of the movement.  For example, the movement may be the same movement for a more advance technique.   In my system we have a double punch that feels awkward at first but as we get into that more advanced form, the same awkward movement that we used in the beignner's form is used.  Instead of using the movement for a double punch, then movement is used to do an simultaneous redirect and strike.   Once a student realized this similarity of movement, the double punch doesn't become so awkward.    

Just my 2 cents based on what I've learned within what I train.


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## wckf92 (Mar 4, 2018)

Marnetmar said:


> so that the arm on the bottom is now on top:



you mean that the one that was on bottom in the bottom position is now the one furthest away from you in the top position? Or the closest to you?



Marnetmar said:


> The purpose of this method is to mark the centerline but doesn't seem to have any practical applications.



Is this what it marks in your WC? Aren't you of the Eddie Chong family? Do you feel that these movements should have applications?



Marnetmar said:


> This is the method I was taught.



Why do you feel that you may cross too much and then be vulnerable to a so-called "trap"? Isn't that why the motion is the way it is...so it ingrains the correct behavior and not incorrect behavior?



Marnetmar said:


> he application for this move is a kwun sao to roll out of a trap.



So it does have application... is that the only usage you are taught in your lineage?



Marnetmar said:


> However, the problem with this method is that if your arms are too crossed over, you'll never be able to get out of the trap.



...footwork...is the key



Marnetmar said:


> What are your thoughts?



My question to you is ... do all three of your forms ONLY contain the middle gif you inserted? Your forms don't contain the "rolling" motion anywhere else?


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## wckf92 (Mar 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you cross your arms, if your opponent presses on your outside arm against your body, your outside arm can jam your inside arm. In other words, your opponent can use one arm to control both of your arms while he will still have one free arm. It's not a good idea to be in that situation.



Perhaps. But, the above assumes your feet are stuck to the ground... however, with footwork, you can relieve the pressure of the so-called "trap" and go about your day...


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## wckf92 (Mar 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your inside arm doesn't have enough space



That's why the forms teach you to maintain a certain distance...it gets ingrained from day 1


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## Danny T (Mar 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may be able to do that when your inside arm still have enough space (between your chest and your outside arm) to react. If your inside arm doesn't have enough space, or if your opponent controls both of your wrist, your inside arm may have difficult to pull out as Tan Shou.


If the practitioner just stands there your are correct. Jut Sun Ma creates space to move the arms as well as changing the lines. Body movement and footwork are important. But then I believe you already know that.


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## Danny T (Mar 4, 2018)

Drills cover a lot more than what is in form.


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## TMA17 (Mar 4, 2018)

I learned the criss-cross method.  Interesting concept in hybrid method.  I'm not sure I entirely understand the implication of it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2018)

Many CMA systems have the arms cross training. But it's done in different way.

- You have arms cross.
- Both palms facing opposite direction. The outside palm faces up. The inside palm faces down.
- You push the outside arm downward while pull your inside arm upward so the back of your palms will slide against each other.


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## Danny T (Mar 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many CMA systems have the arms cross training. But it's done in different way.
> 
> - You have arms cross.
> - Both palms facing opposite direction. The outside palm faces up. The inside palm faces down.
> - You push the outside arm downward while pull your inside arm upward so the back of your palms will slide against each other.


Just because it is done as double palm up in form doesn't mean it is done as such in application.


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## Tong Chuang (Mar 17, 2018)

Marnetmar said:


> This is just some food for thought and is intended to encourage debate.
> 
> 
> The purpose of this method is to mark the centerline but doesn't seem to have any practical applications.
> ...



Few people seem to have realized the secret application of the opening is an X-block/ wrist grab with footwork to a sudden knife attack., either upward to the torso or downward. This is why the ROLLOVER method is WRONG as why would you move the knife further toward you?

I have seen a couple of videos demonstrating it - I will try to post links asap.


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## Tong Chuang (Mar 17, 2018)

In Hung Fa Yi, the arms cross at the wrist joints, protecting the arteries, whereas other WC lineages cross _above_ the wrist joints on the forearms.


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## Tong Chuang (Mar 18, 2018)

Tong Chuang said:


> Few people seem to have realized the secret application of the opening is an X-block/ wrist grab with footwork to a sudden knife attack., either upward to the torso or downward. This is why the ROLLOVER method is WRONG as why would you move the knife further toward you?
> 
> I have seen a couple of videos demonstrating it - I will try to post links asap.



First the wrists cross at the human centre ( Heart) - this is central and fairly non-commital,  - then cross down in front of the Earth centre (belly button) then slide upward to cross at the Heaven centre (mouth height) - it's so fundamental it's repeated in all three forms!

I first saw this application years ago on the Cris Crudelli Mind, Body, Kick-A** Moves TV doc. show but I'm not sure which episode it was in.

Luckily, Sifu Julian de Boers, graciously demonstrates the application here:






Du oh - so that's what it's for du oh silly me, du oh but I was told there are no secrets in WC doh!

Many WChunners have conditioned their nervous system wrongly by repeating certain movements thousands of times - I love that middle height, bent wrist bon sao LOL!


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## Danny T (Mar 18, 2018)

Tong Chuang said:


> Few people seem to have realized the secret application...


LOL!!


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## Marnetmar (Mar 18, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> you mean that the one that was on bottom in the bottom position is now the one furthest away from you in the top position? Or the closest to you?



The former.



> Is this what it marks in your WC? Aren't you of the Eddie Chong family? Do you feel that these movements should have applications?



No, I was taught the rollover method. And yes to both.



> Why do you feel that you may cross too much and then be vulnerable to a so-called "trap"? Isn't that why the motion is the way it is...so it ingrains the correct behavior and not incorrect behavior?



Cross your arms at a high point (say near your elbows). As far as whether or not it ingrains the proper behavior, I don't presume that whoever came up with it had it perfect. However, if performed under the right circumstances it will get the desired result -- there's just a higher possibility of accodentally messing it up.



> So it does have application... is that the only usage you are taught in your lineage?



Yeah?



> ...footwork...is the key



See above response.



> My question to you is ... do all three of your forms ONLY contain the middle gif you inserted? Your forms don't contain the "rolling" motion anywhere else?



Yes.

Can you please chill out with the accusatory tone? I want to have a discussion about the merits of different techniques, not get in a peeing match. If you see things differently, then I would like to hear your case


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## Marnetmar (Mar 18, 2018)

Tong Chuang said:


> Few people seem to have realized the secret application of the opening is an X-block/ wrist grab with footwork to a sudden knife attack., either upward to the torso or downward. This is why the ROLLOVER method is WRONG as why would you move the knife further toward you?



Because I don't presume that it's for a knife defense in the first place.



Tong Chuang said:


> First the wrists cross at the human centre ( Heart) - this is central and fairly non-commital,  - then cross down in front of the Earth centre (belly button) then slide upward to cross at the Heaven centre (mouth height) - it's so fundamental it's repeated in all three forms!
> 
> I first saw this application years ago on the Cris Crudelli Mind, Body, Kick-A** Moves TV doc. show but I'm not sure which episode it was in.
> 
> ...



I feel like this application is a bit far-fetched. If it works, more power to ya, but I'm not buying it.


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## geezer (Mar 18, 2018)

Tong Chuang said:


> Few people seem to have realized the *secret application *of the opening is an X-block/ wrist grab with footwork to a sudden knife attack., either upward to the torso or downward. This is why the ROLLOVER method is WRONG as why would you move the knife further toward you?



Nope. This is _not _the "secret application".

...'cause you just told us about it. So it ain't a secret anymore! 

...but seriously, the longer I spend in WC/VT/WT the more I'm convinced that the forms aren't about applications. Nothing wrong with training some specific applications... just that the forms teach bigger, broader things such as structure, kinetic linkages, and ways of moving that apply to many situations. The kwun-sau version of the opening movement is like that. So many movements involve the under-over rotation that it makes perfect sense to place it at the beginning of the forms. 

Now do you_ have_ to do it that way? No. The old film footage on Grandmaster Yip Man shows him doing the up-down movement without the roll-over. At least on _that _occasion. And several of his prominent students do roll the hands over. So do what makes you happy. But don't base you judgement on what is a very common, and not very reliable knife defense that has nothing to do with WC/VT/WT forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2018)

geezer said:


> the forms aren't about applications.


The 1st move of the Zimen system 1st form is to drop both arms downward (not across). The purpose is to send the energy all the way to your finger tips. May be the WC move is also similar to the "spear finger".


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## wckf92 (Mar 19, 2018)

Marnetmar said:


> Can you please chill out with the accusatory tone?



Wasn't meant to be accusatory.


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## Marnetmar (Mar 19, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Wasn't meant to be accusatory.



Ah, my bad! My apologies.


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## wckf92 (Mar 19, 2018)

Marnetmar said:


> Ah, my bad! My apologies.



No worries Bro. 
Oh, also wanted to mention the search function...I find it quite useful at times. If I'm not mistaken, there has been many posts/threads about this very topic in years past...  The searching can be quite tedious, but may prove useful. Thx.


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