# Weapon Defense While Being Grabbed



## MJS (Jul 14, 2010)

Many times, we see weapon attacks, with the one attack being the only thing thats done.  ie: an overhead club attack, inward club attack, backhand, over head knife thrust, slash, etc.  What I dont see much of is a grab, with the weapon pressed against you.  Ex: you're grabbed from behind with the knife pressed into your back, held against your throat, grabbed from the front with blade pressed against throat, etc

IMO, I think these are valid attacks to train for, as its very possible that you may face these, vs. your 'typical' attack.  

Do you train for these?  Do you think that its worth training for them?


----------



## MA-Caver (Jul 14, 2010)

The biggest thing to get over when grabbed from behind and threatened with a knife (in the back or at the throat) is the getting cut/stabbed fear. It's a HUGE thing to get over. First instinct is to freeze and cooperate. 
You have to get over that and sometimes allow the cut to happen so you can fight back. 
Now granted a deep slash to the throat may incapacitate you instantly, you could train to reach for the hand and wrist (the blade itself as last resort) and pull that away while your free hand is doing nasty things behind you. 

But yeah, training for that is important. The perp/attacker may do something stoopid like start a monologue or may hurt you right away the moment you resist. Either way... go down fighting dammit! 

And hurt the bastard if you can.


----------



## Spork3245 (Jul 15, 2010)

Believe it or not, we train for these scenarios all the time in IKMA Krav Maga. These are very typical mugging scenarios and are very important to train against.
Personally, I'd rather have a gun to my back then a knife.


----------



## Hawke (Jul 15, 2010)

We train for events that may never ever happen.

Should the unexpected happen, hopefully our training will take over.

Self defense against an edge weapon held against your body in my opinion is practical to avoid some serious health issues.

My concern is how do you know if your training for edge weapons is valid?


----------



## Spork3245 (Jul 15, 2010)

Hawke said:


> We train for events that may never ever happen.
> 
> Should the unexpected happen, hopefully our training will take over.
> 
> ...


 
Not sure if you're responding to me, but if you are, I didn't mean that training aginst knives were impratical, I ment that I'd rather defend against a gun pressed up against my body than a knife, as guns are much easier to defend against (at close range obviously) IMO.

Not sure what you mean by "My concern is how do you know if your training for edge weapons is valid?". Edge weapons are very common and easily found/purchased/made, so of course training for attacks by one are valid. If you ment "how do you know if the defenses will work", use a wet paint brush as your "training knife" and see if you got hit


----------



## MJS (Jul 15, 2010)

I done a little of this, however, its something that I'd like to start focusing more on.  As far as how to know whether or not your weapons training is valid...well, IMO, the same can be said for all of our training.  I'm not really a fan of magic markers, as the only part thats going to 'cut' you, will be the tip, so you could get sloppy in your defense, but things like the no lie blade, and the shock knife, are good tools to use.  In addition, train with some realistic intent.  I know, I know, every time a topic like this comes up, someone will usually say, "Well, no matter how hard or real you try to train, it'll never be the same as a real attack...blah blah blah" and yes, thats true, but LEOs and the military run thru various scenario/training drills, so, IMO, if its good enough for them.....


----------



## Hawke (Jul 15, 2010)

My comments were made in general.  I think self defense should include edge weapons because they are common (knife, box cutter, screw driver, etc).

My concern about the validity of the training is from my limited experience with them over the years.  

About using magic markers, lip stick on a blade, shock knife (all good stuff), we are limited in options.  The attacker can slash, stab, grab, etc, but what about the defender?  We train to neutralize the weapon or find an equalizer, but are we allowed to eye gouge, break bones, bite, send the blade back to the attacker, or just turn around and run like mad.  We also have to deal with the legal consequences of our actions (Better to be judged by twelve than to be buried by six).


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 15, 2010)

MJS said:


> Many times, we see weapon attacks, with the one attack being the only thing thats done.  ie: an overhead club attack, inward club attack, backhand, over head knife thrust, slash, etc.  What I dont see much of is a grab, with the weapon pressed against you.  Ex: you're grabbed from behind with the knife pressed into your back, held against your throat, grabbed from the front with blade pressed against throat, etc
> 
> IMO, I think these are valid attacks to train for, as its very possible that you may face these, vs. your 'typical' attack.
> 
> Do you train for these?  Do you think that its worth training for them?


Great question -- and it's definitely something to practice.  Lots of times, they fall into hostage self-rescue drills.

You have to somehow deal with the most serious threat, then break the hold, and then respond.


----------



## Hawke (Jul 15, 2010)

Knife Against the Wall

[yt]tnhO8CtpWig[/yt]


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 15, 2010)

Hawke said:


> My comments were made in general.  I think self defense should include edge weapons because they are common (knife, box cutter, screw driver, etc).
> 
> My concern about the validity of the training is from my limited experience with them over the years.
> 
> About using magic markers, lip stick on a blade, shock knife (all good stuff), we are limited in options.  The attacker can slash, stab, grab, etc, but what about the defender?  We train to neutralize the weapon or find an equalizer, but are we allowed to eye gouge, break bones, bite, send the blade back to the attacker, or just turn around and run like mad.  We also have to deal with the legal consequences of our actions (Better to be judged by twelve than to be buried by six).


An honest & realistic attitude in the training partner is one way to deal with this issue.  It's easy to either play "superman" and be unstoppable, or be completely passive, even after a good initial attack.  Respond reasonably to the simulated actions, and you at least let your partner experience good training.


----------



## Hawke (Jul 15, 2010)

Knife in the Back
[yt]2M9iLPJKBfA[/yt]


----------



## Hawke (Jul 15, 2010)

I put up two different knife attacks on the body from youtude to help percolate our thoughts.

Knife on throat same side or cross side in front, back, or against wall.

Knife under the chin.

Knife against the belly.

Knife in the back high line for ribs.

Knife in the back low line for organs.

Looking back on my training most of these scenarios assume the attacker has a saber/hammer grip.  Which I would guess is the most common grip of the attacker.

In the edge weapon defense while being grabbed does anyone practice with the attacker in a different grip?  While on the ground?  In a chair?


----------



## K-man (Jul 15, 2010)

The first video is great. I don't like the second. Not many assailants will hold a knife at arms length. The video doesn't show how it would work if the assailant was left handed and it doesn't show how it would work if the assailant was closer and holding the shoulder, hair or neck. More detail required. :asian:


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jul 15, 2010)

I liked the first video. Realistic grab. But after he got him to back up I'd then draw my Smith Centennial while stepping back and fill him full of holes. 

See he still has the knife and he can come back up with it. That makes him still very dangerous so Id let him have the contents of my Smith.

I do live in Texas you know.

Deaf


----------



## MJS (Jul 16, 2010)

Hawke said:


> My comments were made in general. I think self defense should include edge weapons because they are common (knife, box cutter, screw driver, etc).
> 
> My concern about the validity of the training is from my limited experience with them over the years.
> 
> About using magic markers, lip stick on a blade, shock knife (all good stuff), we are limited in options. The attacker can slash, stab, grab, etc, but what about the defender? We train to neutralize the weapon or find an equalizer, but are we allowed to eye gouge, break bones, bite, send the blade back to the attacker, or just turn around and run like mad. We also have to deal with the legal consequences of our actions (Better to be judged by twelve than to be buried by six).


 
The following is just my opinion.  Some will agree, some will disagree, and thats fine. 

IMHO, when we're faced with a deadly force situation, ie: guns, knives, then no, I'm not going to worry about being nice to the person.  I may end up getting seriously hurt or worse, but IMO, standing there, doing nothing isn't going to help me either.  When you're faced with something like that, fighting dirty is the only option.  Whatever you have to do to survive, and yes, I like to go by that motto too....better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.  I'll deal with the legal stuff later on.


----------



## MJS (Jul 16, 2010)

Hawke said:


> Knife Against the Wall
> 
> [yt]tnhO8CtpWig[/yt]


 
Nice clip!  I've seen a few of their youtube clips before.  They're affiliated with David James (Vee Arnis Jitsu)  Good stuff IMO.


----------



## MA-Caver (Jul 16, 2010)

That's one of the hardest things about edged weapons. Close-range or at arms length they can be used as fast as the attacker can move. With the video MJS posted, one can only hope that the attacker is going to hold still long enough for a hand to trap the knife. 
The one MJS posted has good techs indeed, only thing I can see is that it's good for the type of attack where the guy wants to put in a few words before cutting your throat. If it's a smash and slash (smashed against the wall and slashing the throat... :idunno: better see it coming.

One video posted here a while back reflected on how quick a knife vs a gun, even at range. Repeatedly the vid showed the knife wielder was able to approach and cut/slash the officer before the gun was drawn. 

Behind the back video... street-wise, I can't think of any thug that would place that much distance between them and their target. They're going to get as close to you as possible to maximize their thrust into your body should it call for it... IF their primary intent is to simply rob you and frighten you into submission.  Unfortunately most thugs would simply walk up behind you to get as close as possible, make a quick rush and stab viciously as many times as they can, then pick you clean as you're on the ground.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jul 16, 2010)

Besides the fact that myself and my partner are total knife nerds qand love training knife work, be it FMA, Jujutsu or western we teach how to use a knife to our students becasue if you understand the weapon and the movements it enforces, then you stand a better chance of overcoming it in an attack.

 The Navy and Air Force take their best pilots and have them train against aggressors using a differnt air cobat doctrine than our own bbecause it only makes so much sense to train against your own tactics you need to train for the most likely enemies tactics (Hey this also helps blow away alot of this Art vs this other art, you are not training fro another Jujutsu guy, your training for a Felonious Thug).

 We do knife work from FMA, Jujutsu and WMA but alos use Prison amping knife attacks, as this is a likely enemy, an excon who;'s been in the Joint.

 When I teach gun defense, I go over how the types of firearms we are training with work.
 I encourage those who have not shot to go to a range and get some time in as well as research weapons and learn about them. I offer to go with them and show them some basics.

 Lot's of defenses I see for guns do not take in account how the weapon functions or worse makes stupid assumptions.

 Grabbing an automatic pistol by the slide is stupid, it's totally last ditch yet I have seen it presented as Alpha techniques many times. (If I have it, it's better than bullet in face. I do teach 2 techniques were the slide is grabbed, explain the dangers and that we are doing this because sometimes this might be all you have but these suck compared to other methods.)
 You hear guys go "This way it might go off as you clear it from your body but it might not cycle another round." Yeah and your hand might look like hamburger because what Karateman forgot (or never knew) is that slide has about the same energy sending it backwards as that bullet does coming out the barrel and stands a good chance of stripping the slide from your hand, now you have a damaged hand and he has got his gun back....

 Understand common weapons if you are concerned with self and family protection whether you elect to have weapons yourself.

 I refuse to learn gun defense from someone who has not fired guns in combative training, it's like a virgin coaching you about sex.


----------



## Laus (Jul 16, 2010)

Now that you mention it I've done little in the way of grabs + armed attacks. Occasionally, a shoulder/upper arm grab with an over head knife attack but that's about it. Could definately use more of that in my training.


----------

