# New to Wing Chun



## wingchun123 (Aug 4, 2010)

Hi all i am really intrested in wing chun and i am going to begin learning soon ... but i have heard from my friends who practice it that the local sifu doesnt really teach the ins and outs and all the names , me being the perfectionist that i am decided to research all i could about wing chun. 

After 2 days of research i have concluded that the main cirriculum the sifu will be teaching is siu lim tao which is the first form i also managed to bring together all the forms and a list of EVERY SINGLE movement in the siu lim tao.

now i believe that i am probably better off learning at home.. as i know all the hand movements-
lap sau
pak sau
lan sau
gum sau
etc 

and also the limb movements 

so what i will be doing over the next couple of weeks/months is i will be practicing siu lim tao. then i will learn each and every hand movement and limb movement
once i have reached that stage i will find a partner and begin doing drills/ sticky hands etc

i know i will be advised that i should not train at home. but i am . lol so please no posts regarding that i should find a sifu. if you think i should find a sifu please rephrase ur reply in how i can improve the way i will be learning wing chun over the next few months


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## mook jong man (Aug 4, 2010)

Oh please God not another one , spare us.


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## coffeerox (Aug 4, 2010)

wingchun123 said:


> Hi all i am really intrested in wing chun and i am going to begin learning soon ... but i have heard from my friends who practice it that the local sifu doesnt really teach the ins and outs and all the names , me being the perfectionist that i am decided to research all i could about wing chun.
> 
> After 2 days of research i have concluded that the main cirriculum the sifu will be teaching is siu lim tao which is the first form i also managed to bring together all the forms and a list of EVERY SINGLE movement in the siu lim tao.
> 
> ...



I'm a self-trainer fyi.  The main problem is that you HAVE to have a partner, one that is also wanting to learn Wing Chun to be able to do drills and spar with on a consistent basis.  

Self-training involves heavy research and it's very possible to stack up an insane amount of knowledge depending on how many sources and the quality of information out there.  

Source and quality of information is important because they have to go in-depth due to the absence of a Sifu.  They have to show you and tell you what is wrong and why it's wrong. What the right way is and so on, so forth.

Another problem is obtaining the information.  It's gets very expensive to the point where a class is actually cheaper than buying material and the bought material can still help as a supplemental tool due to the teacher not going in-depth in class.  You can get lucky and find videos with people explaining it, or articles/entries on a particular subject.



> Oh please God not another one , spare us.


I checked out some of James DeMile's students (James Demile trained w/ Bruce before JKD), I found that my body structure as taught to me by Jin was much better than his students which had it wrong (even the punching was wrong).  Self training isn't bad, we just need good instruction.  

In my state we have a self-training program here: http://www.awcaonline.com/ it seems pretty solid in terms of instruction, offers both written word, pictures and a walkthrough in video.  Like I said earlier though, the better the information and explanation, the better the chance we have of learning what we need to translate that to training.  I wish I could post a video of my Siu Nim Tao, in my opinion, it could stand up to most students that do go to school.  I even know the Chum Kiu form as well but some parts of it looks good, some other parts look bad (like the kick at the end for example) I'm still in the process of practicing and learning it so I'll admit that one is not up to par yet.


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## wingchun123 (Aug 4, 2010)

the reason i have become so intrested in wing chun is because my grandfather is willing to teach me. but he used to be a streetfighter back in the days.. most of the wingchun he knows is mixed in with other styles and not very traditional..
i am going to learn the basics and train with him in the basics only... i do not want to pick up something wrong and at the same time i wish to know each and every movement in the siu lim tao 

oh and coffeerox i believe i have gathered enough information and videos.. i have been looking around and researching everything for a couple of days now


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## IrishMonk (Aug 4, 2010)

So, I'll state the obvious...even though you do'nt want to hear it. You need a Sifu to correct your many mistakes and bad habits that you WILL pick up as soon as you begin. Why not train with the Sifu and supplement with your own studies ?
Secondly, these friends of yours that practice Wing Chun...do they live around you ? why cant you train with their Sifu.... or do they train with the one they do not like ?
Anyway, I wish all good luck to you. I will give you a recomendation... 2 books. Wing  Chun Compendium Vol. 1 and 2 by Wayne Belonoha. ( again, these are great supplements to formal training )


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## wingchun123 (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks for the recommendation irish monk and i just wish to make it clear i do not want to be a proffesional wing chun practitioner. i might not even go to the higher open hand forms.
wing chun is an incredible art but the way i see it is that unless you are going up against an incredible fighter the 1st form will usually take care of an average fighter.


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## coffeerox (Aug 4, 2010)

wingchun123 said:


> the reason i have become so intrested in wing chun is because my grandfather is willing to teach me. but he used to be a streetfighter back in the days.. most of the wingchun he knows is mixed in with other styles and not very traditional..
> i am going to learn the basics and train with him in the basics only... i do not want to pick up something wrong and at the same time i wish to know each and every movement in the siu lim tao
> 
> oh and coffeerox i believe i have gathered enough information and videos.. i have been looking around and researching everything for a couple of days now



You'll never have enough information.  Don't think that because Wing Chun is open to interpretation and there are many interpretations that are useful and can be added to what you know.

Your grandfather sounds like a great source to learn WC from.  Yes he may pass on some non-traditional stuff but you don't have to take it in.  Do your own research in your own time and find out more.  You're really lucky to have him.



> the way i see it is that unless you are going up against an incredible  fighter the 1st form will usually take care of an average fighter.



Okay let me stop you there right now for your own sake.  The first form is good but Chum Kiu training is where you'll put it together for combat.


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## wingchun123 (Aug 4, 2010)

coffeerox sounds as though youre having a go at me! lol youre a self trainer also can you tell me what problems you faced?
and yes i will begin doing the drills with my grandfather but the reason i am want to learn siu lim tao first is that  like you said he may pass on non traditional things.. and like irish monk said i will develop bad habits


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## yak sao (Aug 4, 2010)

Interestingly enough, there is a guy where I work who self taught himself WC. He knows I study WC and every now and then he likes to talk about what he does. Hoo boy, he's a nice guy, but he has so many misgivings about what is and isn't WC. Anyway, today I'm sitting there listening politely to his theories and it hit me. When you are learning any physical skill, MA or otherwise, you bring your own preconceived notions to it.
You do it the way you think it should be done and how it's comfortable for you.
Unfortunately, what is correct, often times, is not what is the most comfortable for your body to do. In other words, the right way feels wrong until you practice it over and over and ingrain it. 
Without a sifu guiding you, you will continue to practice what feels right, but most likely isn't.


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## dosk3n (Aug 5, 2010)

Yak is correct. Things like keeping your elbow on the centre line. The correct angle and rotation of bong sau etc all feels alien when you first start and being self taught you dont know what it should feel like so your body starts to put it where it feel right but its actually wrong.

I mean I think it can be done and Coffeerox is giving a bloomin good go but even he has said it is hard and he has mentioned him self in ohter threads that if he had the time, ability etc he would like a sifu also.

If theres someone in your area even if you dont think he knows that much still use him. You can still self train on top of that but it will come to you a lot faster with the help of a sifu. Especially if youre only wanting to learn Sil Lim Tao, it would only take a couple months to get the basic grip of it but would take longer on your own.

Im not saying its wrong to self train I just think if the option is there for someone to teach you properly then use it and if you like it keep going to that sifu if not then just keep self training but I realy think you should at least give a few classes a go and see what you think before you make your descision.

Good luck to you on your journey.

Can I ask what are you live?


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## coffeerox (Aug 5, 2010)

> Unfortunately, what is correct, often times, is not what is the most  comfortable for your body to do. In other words, the right way feels  wrong until you practice it over and over and ingrain it.
> Without a sifu guiding you, you will continue to practice what feels right, but most likely isn't.





> The correct angle and rotation of bong sau etc all feels alien when you  first start and being self taught you dont know what it should feel like  so your body starts to put it where it feel right but its actually  wrong.



I agree on both points.  At first, I did the bong sao, I did not know what it would feel like under pressure so in a sense I just 'copied' the movement but didn't know what was behind the movement.  I did the technique under pressure, and it failed.  Attacks were getting through and my arm did not feel like it could support the weight.

It wasn't until I saw/heard an in-depth explanation, until I started practicing it the right way and then, going back to apply the technique.  This time,  my arm supported his weight and from here, goes into lap sau or whatever.  Now I'm learning things like Yi Bong and Paau Bong, etc.

To summarize, it's pretty much the scientific method.  Like I said, at first, I did the form as shown, but not knowing what it was behind it (therefore everything was wrong) However, once you get your hands on the concept, an actual in-depth explanation and demonstration, you have your tools to experiment.  Practice what you learned getting the movements with concept in mind, test it out in actual application and analyze where you are going wrong, what you could do to correct that.

One concept that I do not see that others share, is that if you do it wrong, your technique will fail.  Personally, I believe that this technique was there for a reason.  It works.  If it doesn't work, you did it wrong.

Here, people believe that you must be under the supervision/guidance of an expert to tell you what is wrong and what is right.  That's good and all, but you also have to take it upon yourself to stress test these techniques so that they do not fail under pressure.

Ip Man, from what I heard, trained people in this way.  He taught, demonstrated the techniques and concepts to students, but left it up to the students to test what they've learned, and figure it out for themselves.

I'd like to toss you a few quotes, here is from Sifu Allan CK Lee, who has trained under Ip Man, and Duncan Leung

http://wingchunnyc.com/index.php/ar...ing_methods_and_procedures_of_wing_chun_kung/



> Ip Man: &#8221;*Who I am is not important.  The most important thing is what I teach you.  If it works then it counts*.&#8221;





> Ip Man: &#8221;*Don&#8217;t believe what I tell you, use your common sense to learn, try it, use it, and find out for yourself*.&#8221;



here is Sifu Lee practically explained the scientific method



> Students will learn how to stay calm and dispassionately look at the  problem to analyze it as a whole to determine the most logical angle of  approach, move on to determining the most efficient method for tackling  it, and subsequently developing the most efficient procedure to achieve  their goal of solving it.



http://wingchunnyc.com/index.php/article/my_sifus_part_ii/



> He concluded the lesson by saying, &#8220;I&#8217;m not telling you not to respect  me or to question my knowledge. Of course you have to respect the Sifu. I  want you to use your common sense. *Accept what I say, research it. Test  it. Don&#8217;t mystify the art. If you can&#8217;t see it, and if you can&#8217;t feel  it, then how do you know it is correct and practical?* This is the only  way to understand.&#8221;


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## dnovice (Aug 5, 2010)

errrr. yeah.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 5, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Oh please God not another one , spare us.


 
There is always someone (or 2 or 3) who thinks they can learn Wing Chun on their own without the guidance of a Sifu. I have to tell you, you will never be as good at Wing Chun as you think you are without the guidance and training of a knowledgeable sifu, period. There are so many ins and outs, sutble nuances to the structures, proper position and location to the hand movements, that you won't know about without being told from a sifu. The common mistakes that you will never know you're making without someone (qualified) pointing them out, correcting, and constantly fixing everything. The improper structures, positions, and bad habits will ruin and even prevent your developing your Wing Chun skills to a some what average level, so don't even think about getting to a much higher level of skill than that without a sifu's guidance.

I know a couple of guys (who shall remain nameless) in my area, who studied Wing Chun for a number of years on their own. Over the years, they have even tried to teach people, open and run schools (several times) without success. They never keep students more than a month or 2, because the students see them for what they are, terrible practitioners of Wing Chun. They are the laughing stock of the local MA community that I live in. Everyone knows about them and stay away from them like the plague. Five years after they started training (this was 20 years ago), they came to me to see how their Wing Chun (chi sao) stacked up. They were terrible, I bounced both of them around the hall at will without a bit of resistance. I took pity on them and had to stop cause I was tired of hitting them whenever I wanted. I had to work on everything just so I could roll with them. I worked with them for 2 hours trying to fix all the things they had wrong, stance, structure, hand position, energy, you name it, nothing was right. I asked them where they learned their Wing Chun and they claimed through videos and books, being self taught. And they thought they were above average at learning and developing physical skills. After everything was said and done, I even offered to teach them, but they refused, stating they thought they could do better with more self teaching. Now, 20 years later, their Wing Chun is still terrible, just as bad as when they first started training. It is definitely people like them who give our art a bad name.

And they aren't the only ones, I have met quite a few, claimed to be, MAist who have done the same thing. Taught themselves from books and videos thinking they could do better. But in my experience, I have found that those people never live up to the skill level they believe (in their own mind) they are. They walk into a MA school asking to test their skills only to have their asses handed to them without much effort. 

We have a saying in Wing Chun 'Once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change'. Why re-invent the wheel (self taught), when you can buy one that already works (going to a qualified sifu). 

So, you really should consider seeking out the guidance and training from a qualified Wing Chun instructor. It will save you a lot of time and frustration, and really make it easier to learn, and developing the skills happen much faster than trying to do it on your own. Because, if you don't, in a couple of years down the road, you will be that idiot that everyone in the martial arts community talks about, being the laughing stock in your area, giving Wing Chun a bad name.


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## coffeerox (Aug 5, 2010)

and what is a qualified Sifu?  I've seen WT 'technicians' be horrible teachers just as there are graduate assistants who teach better than professors do.  I already see hints of bad kung fu just by listening to what's being said.  Not saying your kung fu is bad, but of all the things I've heard that is my impression.

I ain't gonna lie, my WC sucks but at least I put myself out there, go balls out and apply what I know.  That is what Kung Fu is, earning skill through hard work and practice.  I bet those guys have never sparred a second in their life.  Also those guys did not have what we have today.  I admit that seminar videos only go so far, but things are advancing in this area where people are able to put together a more complete curriculum giving us exactly what we need to train.

Training the hard way (meaning going full speed/power, applying technique under pressure) is the only option I have at the moment until my move to Mesa is finalized and might be able to attend a few WC classes in that area once I get some income.

Times are changing.  You either move along with it or resist it and keep rejecting it every chance you have.  Find what is wrong with online training and find a solution.  Not be a part of the problem.

edit:  another thing I wanted to mention is that similar to what some university professors go through, 'Sifu' are even worse at.  Professors are supposed to continuously produce research and development but not all Sifu will do this. Once they attain the rank of teacher, all progress stops and they just teach what they know.  They don't even continue putting into practice what they know because their students will go into competitions such as Man Up Stand Up and get destroyed by people who has gone under rigorous training.

It's obviously not the system.  Bruce Lee, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, all obviously made it work so why is it that modern fighters we commonly see, can't?  The student is being shaped by the teacher, it's the teacher's fault if a student can't use the tools being given to them.  What's my money going to buy me anyways? If I'm paying, I better be able to be proficient in a real situation.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2010)

wingchun123 said:


> if you think i should find a sifu please rephrase ur reply in how i can improve the way i will be learning wing chun over the next few months


 

find a teacher.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2010)

wingchun123 said:


> oh and coffeerox i believe i have gathered enough information and videos.. i have been looking around and researching everything for a couple of days now


 
A couple of days of research.  No doubt you've found all you'll need.  You must be exhausted.


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## coffeerox (Aug 5, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> find a teacher.



He HAS found a teacher.  Your comment had no relevance to what he was asking.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> It's obviously not the system. Bruce Lee, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, all obviously made it work so why is it that modern fighters we commonly see, can't?


 
because they are trying to learn from books, video, online instruction and online discussions, INSTEAD OF FINDING A GOOD TEACHER, EVEN THO EVERYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF SENSE IS TELLING THEM TO FIND A GODDAM TEACHER!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> He HAS found a teacher. Your comment had no relevance to what he was asking.


 
his grandfather?  Who he doesn't trust to teach him quality wing chun?


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## coffeerox (Aug 5, 2010)

> because they are trying to learn from books, video, online instruction and online discussions, INSTEAD OF FINDING A GOOD TEACHER, EVEN THO EVERYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF SENSE IS TELLING THEM TO FIND A GODDAM TEACHER!



I'm not even referring to self-trainers.  I'm referring to people who have been classically taught!  Explain THIS to me.  Fact, money doesn't buy you talent.  Money doesn't buy you a good teacher.



> his grandfather? Who he doesn't trust to teach him quality wing chun?



In all fairness we don't even know if his grandfather knows quality wing chun or not.  You're just going based on what he's told you.  Remember that he does not yet know Wing Chun.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I'm not even referring to self-trainers.  I'm referring to people who have been classically taught!  Explain THIS to me.  Fact, money doesn't buy you talent.  Money doesn't buy you a good teacher.



there are a whole lot of lousy martial arts "teachers" out there, people who should not be teaching.  Their students reflect this.  Yet in the mainstream, this is becoming more and more common.  So it's true, it can be difficult to find a good teacher, and one often ends up with a lousy teacher.

But trying to go it alone and pretending that method is a viable alternative is self-delusional.  It doesn't work.  As you've noted, lots of people who have trained under a teacher, even a good one, can't use what they've learned.  Some people never get the knack of it, even with the best instruction.  Some people are just like that.  

If it can be so difficult WITH good instruction, why in the gods' names does someone think they would be successful WITHOUT good instruction?  It boggles the mind.

and the notion of money never came into my mind.  Cost is no guarantee of a good teacher.  But a good teacher is a must.  There is no way around that.



> In all fairness we don't even know if his grandfather knows quality wing chun or not.  You're just going based on what he's told you.  Remember that he does not yet know Wing Chun.



If that is the only option, I'd start with the grandfather any day, over going it alone.  At least it's something, from somewhere who's walked the path before.  Might not be worth continuing with, but it's *probably* better than nothing, and certainly better than thinking he can figure this all out himself.

I'm sorry, but I've just been training for far too long to ever encourage someone to go about it this way.  There are FAR FAR too many subtleties involved, things that you cannot pick up from video or books or articles, precise movements and positions that MUST be guided by a skilled teacher, and this stuff simply cannot be done alone.  Get a teacher, or spend your time doing something else.  Life ain't fair.  Sometimes you don't get to do what you want, because what you want isn't available.  

There was one good line from the original Karate Kid movie:  Mr. Miyagi, on seeing Daniel practicing his kicks in the living room, "Ah, karate... you pretty good!  You learn from book?"

It was painfully obvious that he had no good training.


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## Boozmork (Aug 6, 2010)

I think we've had this discussion before. A good sifu vs lots of practice with sparring.  Lots of people shouting, misunderstanding each other and eventually locking the thread. 
Maybe the answer lies somewhere between the two points. 

That's all I'm adding to this because I find it exhausting .


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## dosk3n (Aug 6, 2010)

Yeah but these discusions are a great way to get your post count up lol. Im a stat whore 

But yeah keep it on track.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 6, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> and what is a qualified Sifu? I've seen WT 'technicians' be horrible teachers just as there are graduate assistants who teach better than professors do. I already see hints of bad kung fu just by listening to what's being said. Not saying your kung fu is bad, but of all the things I've heard that is my impression.


 
A. Someone who has been teaching/training for a number of years.

B. Someone who is not affraid to let people know they do martial arts, their name and reputation.

C. Someone who continuously studies and doesn't believe they have reached the pinicle of their art.

D. Someone who doesn't believe they've learned all there is to learn in their system.

E. Someone who doesn't brag on themselves. Most truely skilled MAist are humble and don't toot their own horn.

F. You'll know it when you see it. They let their hands speak for themselves. Their skill level just oozes from their every movement. People who are fakes reveal themselves very quickly. You don't need to know what Wing Chun looks like to see and know true mastered skill and knowledge.

Flying Crane said it, you might have to search far and wide, and money doen't mean the sifu is qualified. But there are a number of sifus out there who actually are good. You just have to wade throught the many, many, bad examples to find them. Remember, something worth finding and doing is worth the time and effort. That is one of the main problems today, people are too impatient and want it now. So when they find the first example of what they are looking for, they run with it.




coffeerox said:


> I ain't gonna lie, my WC sucks but at least I put myself out there, go balls out and apply what I know. That is what Kung Fu is, earning skill through hard work and practice. I bet those guys have never sparred a second in their life. Also those guys did not have what we have today. I admit that seminar videos only go so far, but things are advancing in this area where people are able to put together a more complete curriculum giving us exactly what we need to train.


 
You're right, those guys (whomever you are talking about) did not have what we have today, they had more. Yeah, we have all this modern equipment like bags, sparring gloves, hand wraps, tournaments, UFC, etc. But they had more in training twice as long, twice as hard, not sparring but actual fighting or combat, challenges to masters of various schools just by walking in a kwoon and challenge the sifu (try to do that today and they call the police on you). But one thing videos can't give you is feel, and reading an opponent's energy, sensitivity, and how proper structure from your opponent feels, making sure proper position is followed while executing hand positions, the human touch factor. You will never learn *THAT* from a book or video, something you really need to learn and develop the proper Wing Chun skills correctly.




coffeerox said:


> Training the hard way (meaning going full speed/power, applying technique under pressure) is the only option I have at the moment until my move to Mesa is finalized and might be able to attend a few WC classes in that area once I get some income..


 
People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life. 




coffeerox said:


> Times are changing. You either move along with it or resist it and keep rejecting it every chance you have. Find what is wrong with online training and find a solution. Not be a part of the problem.


 
What's wrong with online training is the human touch factor. Wing Chun is an art requiring sensitivity through touch, responding through contact, feeling you training partner's intent and energy flow. You will never get that online. *That* is the problem. The answer is to find a qualified sifu and train, each and every day or as much as possible. 




coffeerox said:


> edit: another thing I wanted to mention is that similar to what some university professors go through, 'Sifu' are even worse at. Professors are supposed to continuously produce research and development but not all Sifu will do this. Once they attain the rank of teacher, all progress stops and they just teach what they know. They don't even continue putting into practice what they know because their students will go into competitions such as Man Up Stand Up and get destroyed by people who has gone under rigorous training..


 
All the sifus I know are continueously training, researching, growing, still progressing, never letting themselves (in their art) stand still. They are still putting into practice what they preach, which is continueing to learn. As part of the association I'm in (WCAUSA), our instructors are required to perform 25 hours a year in continued learning, training, progressing, and advancing skills to remain certified to teach. If not, then we lose our certification. Not everyone teaches under the *'professor syndrome'*.



coffeerox said:


> It's obviously not the system. Bruce Lee, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, all obviously made it work so why is it that modern fighters we commonly see, can't? The student is being shaped by the teacher, it's the teacher's fault if a student can't use the tools being given to them. What's my money going to buy me anyways? If I'm paying, I better be able to be proficient in a real situation.


 
Because Bruce Lee, Duncan Leung, Hawkins Cheung, etc. had the heart and soul and drive to do it. They are the exception, not today's rule. Today's students are imparient and want everything right this minute, they don't have patience. True masters of their art realize it takes time to gain the skill and knowledge of a particular system, especially in Wing Chun. The teacher helps to shape the student, but it's not always the sifu's fault if the student can't use the tools. Sifu can only guide you, *YOU* as the student has to learn to apply what is given to you. As a sifu, I can't make you do it or learn it, you have to do your part, like attend class as much as possible, question what you don't understand, apply what is taught you. If you pay me the money, you will be given the tools. You just have to learn to use them.


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## yak sao (Aug 6, 2010)

*People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life. *


 Beautifully said


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## Flying Crane (Aug 6, 2010)

yak sao said:


> *People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life. *
> 
> 
> Beautifully said


 
agreed.  Actually, quite a lot of time in training ought to be slow, deliberate, and methodical, making certain that every movement, every shift, every stance, every technique is done right, driven from the foundation.  Rushing thru, full speed, pedal to the metal training undermines this.  The faster you go, the more your foundation and technique breaks down.  Get it right, and gradually speed will come.  But people see all this lightning speed crap on youtube, and think they need to start doing that RIGHT NOW.  as has been pointed out, it's an Instant Gratification society we live in.


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## IrishMonk (Aug 6, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> Yeah but these discusions are a great way to get your post count up lol. Im a stat whore


 
Yep.... :jediduel:   
Hey, that's 10 for me !! lol


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## coffeerox (Aug 6, 2010)

yak sao said:


> *People think doing things like tounaments, controlled sparring events (like the UFC and stuff) is testing under pressure. It ain't. Testing under pressure is getting into altercations or fights with some bully, defending yourself from true aggressors, the odd altercation between you and people trying rob or hurt you, defending yourself agains members of street gangs and stuff, that is true testing under pressure. So, it's not about going all out and using full power while training. Actually always doing that is not good for Wing Chun at all. What's missing from that is sensitivity. Sensitivity built through slow, constant repetition, building up by contact, to a skill level, testing it through drills, then sparring, then the various altercations you encounter through life. *
> 
> 
> Beautifully said



The problem with that post is that you're assuming too much.  

1. Real tournaments are full contact and full speed/power.  If you want to tell me that is not pressure than you're welcome to that belief but I think it's BS.  If it's not pressure, go in there and prove it to me then.

2. We can't get into altercations so the next best thing is sparring.  Don't undermine sparring just for the sake of winning the argument.  In fact, thoughts like those are why WC students end up doing so terrible at events.

3. Sensitivity, well I can't speak for other people but I AM training in sensitivity.  Have you looked at my training results thread?  I did both Dan Chi Sao and Chi Sao with people who have learned it for at least a year now.  I still have a lot to work on, but it's not like I'm not training it.

In the end, unless you're actually down here with either of us, training, you can't assume regardless of how well you think you know what is going down.  You don't, you can only guess.  It's better to stick to the downfalls of self-training, and I can even put in my 2 cents, having done it personally.


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## yak sao (Aug 6, 2010)

WT people do spar, we even have a catchy little Chinese name for it called lat sau. 
But we don't do it all the time. If we did, we would never learn to relax and it would be all about powering through each other.
The people on here trying to help you out with sound advice, I would venture to guess, have a combined total of over 200 years training under their belts. While we don't know everything there is to know about WC, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.
It sounds like you're going to continue to do what you do and that's fine.
Just do us all a favor and don't call it Wing Chun.


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## coffeerox (Aug 6, 2010)

yak sao said:


> WT people do spar, we even have a catchy little Chinese name for it called lat sau.
> But we don't do it all the time. If we did, we would never learn to relax and it would be all about powering through each other.



But if you don't do it you're never going to learn the reflexes needed for a real situation.  I'd do it as soon as I'm at that point in the curriculum and do it as often as possible.



> The people on here trying to help you out with sound advice, I would venture to guess, have a combined total of over 200 years training under their belts.



I understand that but we've covered everything already.  You just want to sit there and make assumptions as to how people train without actually being there and in effect, be completely wrong.  

You're welcome to your opinion about self-training but don't tell us what we do and don't do because you're not here with us.



> While we don't know everything there is to know about WC, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.



Well I'm not an idiot, and the people I train with aren't idiots, so don't treat me like one because I do something you don't agree with.  If I had an option, I'd be training like you, but that's not viable just yet.  I'm getting there, so just bear with me for a moment.



> It sounds like you're going to continue to do what you do and that's fine.
> Just do us all a favor and don't call it Wing Chun.



Of course I'm going to do what I do.  You can't tell me not to.  I'm not going to stop calling what I do Wing Chun because you said so.  I call it whatever I like.  Favors are earned.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 6, 2010)

Coffeerox:  I'm trying to step back here and give you a straight bit of advice and maybe ask you a couple of honest questions as well.

Firstly,  I'll tell you this:  I would be very very very surprised if any experienced martial artist on this forum, wing chunner or otherwise, is going to tell you that going it alone without an instructor as a beginner, is a good idea.  A few might hem and haw a bit and try and give you the benefit of the doubt, and suggest that *maybe* it might be better than nothing, why not give it a try and see what happens, whatever.  But you are not going to get validation here for what you are doing.  You aren't going to find a bunch of folks here who are going to encourage you with this.

What is it you are hoping to find here?  I ask this honestly, because it's not my place, not my intention, to tell you that you ought to leave, so please don't misunderstand me.  But I'm honestly trying to understand what you hope to get from this kind of discussion?  The folks here are not supportive of this method.  They aren't going to encourage you on this.  If you are going to do it anyway, then what is it you want to talk about?

Look, you have a real interest in wing chun, and that's great.  You don't have access to a teacher, and that's a bummer, truly.  Reading about it, watching videos, researching to educate yourself about it, those are great things to do anyway, and nobody will discourage that.  But you aren't in a place to make real progress in the meantime.  You've suggested that situation might change in the future, and that's good news.  I'd say hold off on the training until your situation changes and you can work with a good teacher.  Then, GO FOR IT with all you've got.  

In the meantime, pick the brains of the folks here, see what you can learn on the intellectual level.  As was mentioned, there's a wealth of knowledge and experience amonst the folks here.  So ask the questions and get them to open up.  But the more you push this notion that you can train just fine without any real instruction, that's just gonna make the folks more hostile.  Honestly, it's a bit insulting.  I don't believe you INTEND it to be insulting, but it is insulting nonetheless.  The folks here have spent many hours per week, for years and years to train, blood sweat and tears in the mix, effort, hard work, and dedication.  And yes, I expect a fair bit of money as well.  And we all struggle to understand and develop our skills.  It just isn't possible any other way.  To have some guy come on hear and talk about how he's doing just fine without a real teacher, and then to have the cahonas to call it WING CHUN, well, it's insulting and you aren't going to get a warm welcome that way.  Nobody is going to respect that.

Trying to give you some honestly friendly advice here.


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## IrishMonk (Aug 6, 2010)

I respect your ambition...I do. And I think you would make a FINE student, that's for sure. But I would just restate that the longer you train yourself, the more bad habits you will pick up...and the longer those bad habits are in play the harder to "undo" them.
Hell...I pick up bad habits all the time under the supervision of my Sifu AND Sigong ! lol. Thankfully they are quickly dealt with. 
These seemingly small, subtle mistakes can be exploited easily by the Sifu ( or other Kung Fu brothers and sisters ) and thus point out why and how small differences makes or breaks your Wing Chun.


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## coffeerox (Aug 6, 2010)

> Firstly, I'll tell you this: I would be very very very surprised if any experienced martial artist on this forum, wing chunner or otherwise, is going to tell you that going it alone without an instructor as a beginner, is a good idea



Am I really going it alone?  Because I am still receiving instruction, it's still being explained to me in detail (actually more so than in class), demonstrated to me as well.  

So what's missing here?  A live partner and on-the-fly correction.  I have a live partner.  It was difficult to find but we got it together.  I don't have on-the-fly correction obviously but that is where the instruction comes in.  

The wrong thing IS shown to me and also, the nature practicing is that you keep getting it wrong until it's right.  The partner aspect comes into play, if the technique fails, you did it wrong.



> What is it you are hoping to find here?



Intelligent discussion. Though this is not restricted to MA and I pretty much can't find it anywhere regardless of topic.  People get too personal ,emotional and never have an open mind.



> But you aren't in a place to make real progress in the meantime.



I agree with you, but I can't say I've made no progress at all.  I went from learning the forms, studying the concepts and ideas to application and I ran into a wall at that point.  I didn't have anything to hit, no partner to practice with.  Then I found those things and started improving, but ran into another wall which includes sensitivity and bridging the gap.  I definitely need to learn these from a live teacher.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 6, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Am I really going it alone?



yes, you are.



> Because I am still receiving instruction, it's still being explained to me in detail (actually more so than in class), demonstrated to me as well.



no, you are not



> So what's missing here?



everything that matters

look, does the notion ever strike you that maybe, just maybe, all these folks here who tell you this is a bad idea, maybe they know something that you just don't want to see?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I agree with you, but I can't say I've made no progress at all. .


 
You might think it's progress, how do you know? And is it progress in the right direction, are you doing everything you've learned correctly? Only a qualified sifu would know and can tell you. Otherwise, you could be doing what you've learned incorrectly and then it really isn't progress, but things you have to un-learn. Wing Chun philosophy, *'once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change*'.



coffeerox said:


> I went from learning the forms, studying the concepts and ideas to application and I ran into a wall at that point.


 
Just because you know the sequence to the hand positions in the form(s), doesn't mean you really *KNOW* the form(s) inside and out, principles, theories, concepts, and various applications, etc. In a previous post, you stated this:

'*The student is being shaped by the teacher, it's the teacher's fault if a student can't use the tools being given to them.'*

Well, if you're training without a sifu's guidance, who is shaping you? Who is giving you the tools? You, yourself? How can you shape and mold, give yourself tools when you don't know the system and what the tools are? Also, what you're doing right or wrong? For all you know, you're doing everything wrong and going in the wrong direction. That's why you ran into a wall, no sifu to tell you where to go and what you should do next. 



coffeerox said:


> . . . . but ran into another wall which includes sensitivity and bridging the gap. *I definitely need to learn these from a live teacher.*


 
Wisest thing posted to date. But it's not like you're going to see a sifu, they teach you about sensitivity, and then you're done with them. Sensitivity is like stamina, you have to maintain it constantly or the skill goes away very quickly. You need a sifu not for just the sensitivity, for everything else included.

I'm smart enough to know I don't need to put my head on the chopping block to find out it will chop it off. You don't know the folly in your ways, trying to teach yourself and not having a sifu giving you proper guidance. I cringe at the thought of what you are doing, it could be truely dangerous. Because in 5 years from now, without proper instruction and guidance, you will be doing something, calling it Wing Chun, and it half *** works and you get your butt kicked by street thugs, hoodlums, muggers, who knows. And then you'll wonder why your Wing Chun failed you. I've seen it all before and believe me, I know what I'm talking about.


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## coffeerox (Aug 7, 2010)

@zep

I just got done saying that I was wrong what more do you want?  Judging by your posts I think that your kung fu is bad.  You don't hold the standard of Chinese Martial Arts and I wouldn't learn from you even if it was free and you came down here.


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## Rion (Aug 7, 2010)

I always wanted to know this, but how did MA any MA start? Their couldn't have always been a a teacher at some point down in time their must have been a person who created their fighting system to help themselves.

I know this may sound stupid but some monk somewhere must have fought, "Hey if i punch like this and kick like this, i wont get hit".

I have always wondered at that everything needs someone to begin the journey otherwise how does it get started.

Anyway deep and meaningful thoughts over i would have to side with most people on here and say try and get a Sifu, a real good teacher will show you how you need your elbow a inch higher or slower.

And it may not matter to you but it does work.


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## geezer (Aug 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> @zep
> 
> I just got done saying that I was wrong what more do you want?  Judging by your posts I think that your kung fu is bad.  You don't hold the standard of Chinese Martial Arts and I wouldn't learn from you even if it was free and you came down here.



_Navi_, I think this reply reveals a lot. You know that there are a lot of WT/WC/VT people in our area. Joy teaches the Augustine Fong/Ho Kam Ming lineage, there's Leung Ting WT, Ebmas WT, our WT offshoot, the NVTO, a Benny Meng school, and also related systems such as Martin Torres "DTE" escrima which includes some solid WC concepts along with FMA and MMA, and if you like sparring, some of his guys compete in cage fights. So  theres's a lot out there. Some cost more, some less. Some stuff is close, other stuff might be a 45 minute drive or more away. But if you _really_ wanted to learn from a qualified instructor, you could definitely find one. 

But, I get the impression that you feel that you can do _better_ on your own. What you've posted gives the impression that the real reason you are "self-training" with friends has little to do with your current financial and transportation difficulties, but is instead a _conscious choice_ to do things your own way, using whatever resources you can find in books, DVDs and online. 

Anyway, if that's your choice, so be it. It's a free country. Just don't expect the many experienced practitioners here to support your position. Or to give you a lot of respect when you are disrespectful of others. I mean look at that quote, for example. Now I don't know _Zepedawingchun_ personally, but from his previous posts, I assume he's got a lot of experience. So why are you so disrespectful? I mean what does that accomplish? And as far as self-training goes, do you really feel you can do better cobbling together your own system from diverse online sources? To some, that might sound a bit arrogant or naive...or both. Please excuse my bluntness, but that's the way it looks to me.


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## coffeerox (Aug 7, 2010)

> But if you really wanted to learn from a qualified instructor, you could definitely find one.



Steve, you definitely showed me that it takes a bit more uncovering to find the right places and people.  My online job has taught me to find things online and in doing so, I forget that there's networking (word of mouth), unlisted and so on, so forth.



> But, I get the impression that you feel that you can do better on your own.



Not necessarily.  While I am more inclined to believe I can do it on my own (I am a self-trainer in many things, including my job) I understand that in martial arts, you need somebody to continue taking it to the next level.  I also believe that nothing is impossible.  It may seem impossible sure, but undertaking the journey to defeat the impossibility will take you farther than you can possibly imagine.



> What you've posted gives the impression that the real reason you are "self-training" with friends has little to do with your current financial and transportation difficulties, but is instead a conscious choice to do things your own way, using whatever resources you can find in books, DVDs and online.



No.  It's finances and transportation most definitely.  I've been saying to my friends for awhile now that I really need a Wing Chun school.  Every time I go train, I think about needing to go to a traditional school.  

Things would definitely change if the move to Mesa comes through.  More job opps and better access to schools.  I could attend your Kiwanis park class as it would be 13mins away or I can try a Sam Kwok lineage, Joy's or WT.  The key factor is the job opportunity.  I am working right now but it's not a lot of money, not the kind that will get me into classes and stay there.

Now you know a little more about my situation.  My constant defense on here is because people don't know the full situation yet they want to assume and act like they know and just tell me what to do.  It doesn't work that way.  It also takes time to sort things out, it's not instant.  I keep saying that I'm working on it yet people constantly hound me.  There's other things in my life too.  All I can do  *for now* is go to practice once a week and train what I've learned.  School is in my plans, but that is for the future.



> So why are you so disrespectful?



Respect has to be earned and he has not yet earned it. He may have experience, but there are things that I see in his character (through his posts) that tell me he is a bad practitioner and not deserving to practice Chinese Martial Arts.  Many western practitioners have forgotten what it means to practice martial arts and it goes beyond the fighting aspect.    

Keep in mind that people come from all walks of life and have strengths in many areas.  One of mine is online communities.  I've been doing this for so long that it doesn't matter who the person is, I can psychoanalyze that person by what they say.  I've had a tough time and I've previously received death threats from locals even.  I had to learn how people think online.



> And as far as self-training goes, do you really feel you can do better cobbling together your own system from diverse online sources? To some, that might sound a bit arrogant or naive...or both.



I don't think that I can do better, but I do think that I have a level of comprehension that allows me to do things that other people rarely possess.  Like I said, I'm a self-trainer in many things.  To the point where teaching one-self is a unique skill all on it's own.  Just think about it, if I can teach myself up to a certain level/standard, how far can I get with a proper education?  I am constantly pushing myself farther and farther because I have to do it the hard way.  I think that in this day and age, many people have forgotten what that means.


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## IrishMonk (Aug 7, 2010)

Sry Wingchun123... seems your thread has been highjacked irateton


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> @zep
> 
> I just got done saying that I was wrong what more do you want? Judging by your posts I think that your kung fu is bad. You don't hold the standard of Chinese Martial Arts and I wouldn't learn from you even if it was free and you came down here.


 
I don't care if you respect me or not. Just remember, if you want to be respected, you have to give it first. I'm not being disrespectful to you (yet), I'm just trying to make you understand the error in your belief of self teaching. Plus I don't want *YOU* to make a mockery of our belove martial arts system. There are too many bad Wing Chun posers out there already that our art suffers from it. We (as qualified instructors) who have put the time, effort, money, and hard sweat don't need you adding more insult to injury to the Wing Chun reputation. If you believe my kung fu is bad, fine. You're entitled to your opinion. You're welcome to come down to S.C. and find out before you pass judgement. I would be more than happy to show you the error in your belief.

I would never offer you instruction for free, people don't appreciate anything given for free, especially a young know it all like you. And what would you know about Chinese Martial Arts standards? You're just a young buck who thinks he can do it better than everyone who has passed before him. You act and sound like a punk with a bad attitude. I would never let you train in my kwoon due to your attitude and beligerance. Besides, my senior students would beat the crap out of you and tear you apart every chance they got for your disrespect and arrogance. You wouldn't want to stay very long. Respect is part of the kung fu training. If you think I'm being disrespectful to you it's because you're being an *** about your belief in your self teaching of Wing Chun. Remember, you get what you give.



coffeerox said:


> I think that I can do better, but I do think that I have a level of comprehension that allows me to do things that other people rarely possess. Like I said, I'm a self-trainer in many things. To the point where teaching one-self is a unique skill all on it's own. Just think about it, if I can teach myself up to a certain level/standard, how far can I get with a proper education? I am constantly pushing myself farther and farther because I have to do it the hard way. I think that in this day and age, many people have forgotten what that means.


 
Oh please, quit building yourself up to be Superman. You haven't even stepped into a kwoon yet and you already think you can do better than everyone else. I've heard it all before, you're just one of thousands and thousands who have passed through martial arts training hall doors (but you haven't passed through any doors yet) and thought the same thing, that they are the exception and can pick up any skill they want like that. Just because everything you've done before this seemed easy for you, doesn't mean this will be. And believe me, it isn't. We have a saying in Wing Chun and it goes _*'simple but not easy'*_. 

Besides, a sifu would never want to teach you because your cup is not empty, it's too full of yourself. Arrogance gets you kicked (literally) out the door. Be humble and you get all there is to learn and more.


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## IrishMonk (Aug 7, 2010)

opcorn:


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## coffeerox (Aug 7, 2010)

> Just remember, if you want to be respected, you have to give it first.



HAHAHHAHA you gone through life thinking that?



> I would never offer you instruction for free, people don't appreciate anything given for free, especially a young know it all like you.



You fail in CMA.



> You're just a young buck who thinks he can do it better than everyone who has passed before him.



I know who my heroes are.  I stand by everything they believe in and the dispute is that you are nowhere as disciplined as they are.  I don't respect you because of posts like these,  you fail at martial arts and violate even Japanese standards.



> You act and sound like a punk with a bad attitude.



I give what I get.



> Besides, my senior students would beat the crap out of you and tear you apart every chance they got for your disrespect and arrogance. You wouldn't want to stay very long.



HAHAHAHHA are you serious?  First of all, you failed at martial arts standards RIGHT THERE.  Violence is never advocated for ANY REASON, especially trivial matters such as disrespect and arrogance.

Second of all, I'm not just walking into a trained group of martial artists.  If I do, I'm coming out alive.  You better hope I don't humiliate you and that's the least of your concerns.



> you already think you can do better than everyone else



Cause I can.  Prove that I can't.  Who are you to make judgement about me when you don't even know me?



> Besides, a sifu would never want to teach you because your cup is not empty, it's too full of yourself. Arrogance gets you kicked (literally) out the door. Be humble and you get all there is to learn and more.



My cup is just fine.  Just because I disrespect you doesn't mean I'm not willing to accept new information.  My whole being is about accepting new information.  I can't self-teach otherwise if I'm rejecting useful information.  You mistake arrogance with confidence.  I know what blind arrogance is.

If you go back and read my posts, it's always been about encouraging people to step their game up, strive to be better than what you are, have an open mind and debate in an intellectual manner.  I got nothing but bad criticisms, closed minds, personal attacks and more.  People don't realize these things because they try to attack the posts instead of looking at it impartially and looking at the underlying meaning, not assuming the worst of a person.  I don't need proof that you're a better martial artist than me, I KNOW I'm a better person than you are.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

wingchun123 said:


> Hi all i am really intrested in wing chun and i am going to begin learning soon ... but i have heard from my friends who practice it that the local sifu doesnt really teach the ins and outs and all the names , me being the perfectionist that i am decided to research all i could about wing chun.
> 
> After 2 days of research i have concluded that the main cirriculum the sifu will be teaching is siu lim tao which is the first form i also managed to bring together all the forms and a list of EVERY SINGLE movement in the siu lim tao.
> 
> ...


 
Sigh....this thread, just like the others will probably implode very soon.  But, I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt, and assume you're asking a legit question and not trolling here, as thats against the forum rules that you agreed to when you joined up.  Also seeing that there're countless threads on here discussing video/self teaching vs. learning from a qualified teacher, I'll say the same thing as I've said in those threads.....There is absolutely NO, I repeat NO way that you'll be good by learning from any other source other than a live teacher.  I dont care what anyone says, its not going to happen.  Find a teacher, and put in the blood, sweat and tears.  

If you need help finding a school, ask here, use the internet, and I'm sure you'll find something.  There are many people here who will give you some solid advice.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> and what is a qualified Sifu?


 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/qualified

Lets see...someone who:

Understands the material inside and out.
Someone who can explain and teach the material.
Someone who has a solid lineage background.

Those are a few things.  




> I've seen WT 'technicians' be horrible teachers just as there are graduate assistants who teach better than professors do. I already see hints of bad kung fu just by listening to what's being said. Not saying your kung fu is bad, but of all the things I've heard that is my impression.


 
Did you see these people live in person or on video/dvd?  Out of curiosity, what makes YOU qualified to determine wheter or not someone is bad or good?  Did it ever occur to you that perhaps because you're trying to learn from tape, that you're having a hard time seeing things?



> I ain't gonna lie, my WC sucks but at least I put myself out there, go balls out and apply what I know. That is what Kung Fu is, earning skill through hard work and practice. I bet those guys have never sparred a second in their life. Also those guys did not have what we have today. I admit that seminar videos only go so far, but things are advancing in this area where people are able to put together a more complete curriculum giving us exactly what we need to train.


 
Translation:  You and some friends get together on a Saturday afternoon, drink some koolaid, watch some instructional tapes, then run out to the backyard, and LARP what you all just saw.



> Training the hard way (meaning going full speed/power, applying technique under pressure) is the only option I have at the moment until my move to Mesa is finalized and might be able to attend a few WC classes in that area once I get some income.


 
Sigh...so I see you're still using this line.  IIRC, didn't Geezer offer to give you a bike or train with you?  Did you take him up on that offer?  Then again, you could always take the suggestions that I gave you, which were to:

Get your **** together before you worry about training.
Look at other arts.
Have someone transport you to a school or training group.
Have someone come to your house to work with you, either privately or in a group setting.  And no, I'm not talking about just anybody, I'm talking about QUALIFIED people!



> Times are changing. You either move along with it or resist it and keep rejecting it every chance you have. Find what is wrong with online training and find a solution. Not be a part of the problem.


 
You're right, times are changing...people are getting way to lazy!  Instead of busting their ***, they take the easy, lazy way out.  Whats wrong with online training....if you can't figure it out, I dont know what to tell ya.

No doubt, you'll get all pissy and huffy with what I said.  Sorry if I dont sugar coat things for you.


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 8, 2010)

I can be pig headed to the 100th degree.
Before I started attending classes, I thought to myself, There is no way in hell I can't do this by myself, and so on and so forth. I figured my over-training could compensate for a lack of real instruction. After I started attending classes, it was the biggest eye-opener I could have imagined. Regardless of having some natural physical raw talent, and a good work ethic I still sucked horribly! Wing Tzun is just weird, you need to be corrected a thousand times on minute little things that you and other folks just won't be able to tell. An experienced sifu if necessary... Best of luck!


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## matsu (Aug 8, 2010)

ive been reading this post shaking my head in disbelief.
coffeerox..... i have no problem with you doing your thing your way, i would even have a modicum of respect for you in doing just that.... if you didnt behave on here like such an A hole.
you,..... correct me if im wrong....
*have never been instructed in wing chun by an experienced practioner?*

*have never touched hands with an experienced practioner?*

*have even witnessed a class in the real world and not jsut in cyberspace?*

then you seriuosly do not know if what you are doing has any real correlation to what is REAL wing chun!!
because you only have your cyber research to compare it to, and your jkd mates who have been trainng for just a year (i believe)
i have been training for just over two yrs and i failed my form in my last grading..... every move was correct but the emphasis, the ging, the speed the tension was not as it should...if i am being corrected by a sifu who is considered one of the foremost in the uk, how the hell do you actually think that you can perform slt correctly, learning with no feedback from cyber vids and books.

you have a real chip on your shoulder about the people on here disrespecting you and treating you like an idiot,yet your behaviour just re inforces the fact that you know very little of wht you speak and you are just repeating parrot fashion what you have read somewhere and HAVE NO REAL EXPERIENCE IN WING CHUN to be able to do so!
please do not try to quote lineage or techniques from a certain sifu because you do notknow wing chun!!! end of!!!
quote you......
*Respect has to be earned and he has not yet earned it. He may have experience, but there are things that I see in his character (through his posts) that tell me he is a bad practitioner and not deserving to practice Chinese Martial Arts. Many western practitioners have forgotten what it means to practice martial arts and it goes beyond the fighting aspect. 

Keep in mind that people come from all walks of life and have strengths in many areas. One of mine is online communities. I've been doing this for so long that it doesn't matter who the person is, I can psychoanalyze that person by what they say. I've had a tough time and I've previously received death threats from locals even. I had to learn how people think online*.

what a complete load of complete *****.....you honeslty believe what you typed there??
you know how people thinkonline....? thts an amazing skill,how come you do not earn a fortune with such a skill?
you have hd death threats? frankly i,m not surpised, your attitude would possibly incite the dalai lama to violence lol
you cannot see someones character online you silly silly naive sellf absorbed and arrogant young man and it is statements like that,which makes me sad for you and why ths will be my only post when you get involved with a thread.
i for one cannot believe you have had the opportunity to train with someone from here who offered you almost everything and yet you did nothing, and then you spout crap!!
and guys...... dont feed the troll!!
i,m outa here
matsu


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## Grenadier (Aug 8, 2010)

Self-training will not get you very far at all.  At the best, you'll accidentally discover one or two techniques that you *might* be able to pull off with some semblence of consistency.  At the worst, you're going to be performing techniques that use incorrect mechanics, and could hurt you (joints, tendons, ligaments, etc).  

Martial arts are complex systems, even the ones that are simple.  You need to understand body mechanics, timing, etc., all of which are nigh impossible to comprehend sufficiently without competent instruction.  

There are some who say "Well, someone had to learn how to box from the start," and I won't disagree, but boxing as we know of it in modern times (say, even as old as 1900) was a cumulation of self-discoveries of how a human body can be used to punch with more efficiency and power.  This took many, many years (or decades, or even centuries), and not the handful of years that self-training aspirants would think that they need.  

Furthermore, one can't learn what it feels like to be attacked, just by self-training.  As much as people watch "Rocky" and think that they can just go in there, take a slew of punches, use their own heads as blocking shields, and then deliver KO punches, it just doesn't work that way.  

With a competent, experienced teacher in boxing, one could learn in 1 year what would have taken 100+ years of self-training (and I'm being VERY conservative with that 100 year figure).  




In the end, is self-training useless?  Not at all, provided that one gets live, competent instruction *first*.  Once the practitioner has a base level of knowledge, then he can use supplements such as books and videos, to help refine those techniques.  Think of those things as nice siding or paint for a house.  They're really not that useful unless you've built the house first...


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 8, 2010)

Incite the dalai lama to violence, That just may have made my morning.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

wingchun123 said:


> Hi all i am really intrested in wing chun and i am going to begin learning soon ... but i have heard from my friends who practice it that the local sifu doesnt really teach the ins and outs and all the names , me being the perfectionist that i am decided to research all i could about wing chun.


 
Out of curiosity, how long have your friends been training?  I ask this because its  very possible that if they are new, that the reason why the inst. is not teaching the 'ins and outs' is because those people are not ready for them yet.  In other words, you gotta walk before you run.  Start with the basics and advance up.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> He HAS found a teacher. Your comment had no relevance to what he was asking.


 
Actually it is relevant to the thread, because if you took the time to read the rest of the OPs post, you'd notice that he then made mention of home study, thus the reason why the replies followed as such.


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## coffeerox (Aug 8, 2010)

matsu said:


> because you only have your cyber research to compare it to, and your jkd mates who have been trainng for just a year (i believe)



Who happens to have been trained by a former Wing Chun teacher.



> if i am being corrected by a sifu who is considered one of the foremost in the uk, how the hell do you actually think that you can perform slt correctly, learning with no feedback from cyber vids and books.



Because I pay attention to the minor minor details.  I grab new concepts about the form as it slowly builds together into a better SNT.  It's constantly improving from when I copied the movements, to actually understanding little by little what these movements mean, and how they are practiced.  I practice the form almost on a daily basis, doing it slow to understand the relationship between what I am doing, and the body structure.

No one who has studied WC for 1 or even 2 years can get SNT perfect, it's a lifetime accomplishment.  Chu Shong Tin for example did the form hundreds of times just to understand one thing, and then doing it more and more over his lifetime to master it.  He is called King of Siu Nim Tao for a reason.  

The only person here who have seen my SNT is geezer, so PM him and ask him what he thought of it as I can't post a video.  He did make some corrections, feed me some new info and I still practice it to this day.  That is exactly what I'm talking about in my first paragraph.  I'm constantly learning new things and gradually my form is getting better and better.  It is my ability to absorb new information that allows me to get better.  It's *my* unique ability so don't feel bad that I'm able to do this.

Also want to add that what we may do differently is the research.  I'm constantly watching seminars, reading articles, I just simply have more information than you do.  That's not my fault that you did not supplement your training which is what this material does.  You have a sifu, +1 years ahead of me in an actual class and I turn out to do the form better than you do lol.



> you have a real chip on your shoulder about the people on here disrespecting you and treating you like an idiot,yet your behaviour just re inforces the fact that you know very little of wht you speak and you are just repeating parrot fashion what you have read somewhere and HAVE NO REAL EXPERIENCE IN WING CHUN to be able to do so!



I do not care about being respected.  One of the martial art maxims is to be humble.  I do have a problem with people treating me like an idiot.  Like I said, I may suck at Wing Chun, but I am not a moron.  You don't know me.



> what a complete load of complete *****.....you honeslty believe what you typed there??



why else would I typed it?  This skill isn't really valuable online, except be a community manager who does this on my off-time and all it does really is manipulate who I want or avoiding/treating conflicts.



> you cannot see someones character online you silly silly naive sellf absorbed and arrogant young man



You can't just say something about somebody else and turn out to be true.  You have no way to prove it and these posts aren't going to help you b/c you don't know me.

I know what I can do and I've proved it time and time again. I don't need you telling me I can't read people online.  I sure the hell can and will continue to do so.


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## IrishMonk (Aug 8, 2010)

Coffeerox... why don't you silence those who oppose your self training by posting a vid of yourself displaying your ability to pic up all the subtle points of WC from books and online vids ?? 

Lets see your SNT form... and its application with your friends.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Who happens to have been trained by a former Wing Chun teacher.


 
How long, out of curiosity, did they train for?  I ask this because further down, you stated that a 1-2yr student can't get SNT perfect.  





> Because I pay attention to the minor minor details. I grab new concepts about the form as it slowly builds together into a better SNT. It's constantly improving from when I copied the movements, to actually understanding little by little what these movements mean, and how they are practiced.
> 
> No one who has studied WC for 1 or even 2 years can get SNT perfect, it's a lifetime accomplishment. Chu Shong Tin for example did the form hundreds of times just to understand one thing, and then doing it more and more over his lifetime to master it. He is called King of Siu Nim Tao for a reason.
> 
> The only person here who have seen my SNT is geezer, so PM him and ask him what he thought of it as I can't post a video. He did make some corrections, feed me some new info and I still practice it to this day. That is exactly what I'm talking about in my first paragraph. I'm constantly learning new things and gradually my form is getting better and better. It is my ability to absorb new information that allows me to get better. It's *my* unique ability so don't feel bad that I'm able to do this.


 
Dont you see what you just said?  You said that you mimicked the forms on dvd, and geezer made corrections.  This shows that the fine points were missed on video.  So if you never trained with geezer, you'd most likely be making mistakes, missing info, keypoints, etc., until the day came, if it ever does, that you get yourself to a real teacher to train with.






> I do not care about being respected. One of the martial art maxims is to be humble. I do have a problem with people treating me like an idiot. Like I said, I may suck at Wing Chun, but I am not a moron. You don't know me.


 
As I've said before...you seem to think that its everyone else, but have you looked at yourself?  Ex: If you post foolish things, chances are, you'll get foolish replies.  To prove this, use the search function for this forum, and find other posts in which people have asked about video learning.  See the replies and then compare them to this thread.  Chances are they'll be pretty similar.





> why else would I typed it? This skill isn't really valuable online, except be a community manager who does this on my off-time and all it does really is manipulate who I want or avoiding/treating conflicts.


 
Hmm...you most likely typed it because its something that you heard, saw, believe in, etc.  Then again, there're people who claim to have seen Elvis walking around, and that've seen strange green men, but should we believe them too? LOL!





> You can't just say something about somebody else and turn out to be true. You have no way to prove it and these posts aren't going to help you b/c you don't know me.
> 
> I know what I can do and I've proved it time and time again. I don't need you telling me I can't read people online. I sure the hell can and will continue to do so.


 
You're right, I dont know you, however, people are going on and forming opinions of your posts, so......if thats any indicator, well....

I think the issue here is, is that you came here, started a thread on video learning, because you thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, didnt get the replies YOU wanted to hear, so instead of accepting that, you got pissed off at everyone.


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## coffeerox (Aug 8, 2010)

> How long, out of curiosity, did they train for? I ask this because further down, you stated that a 1-2yr student can't get SNT perfect.



Going on two years now.  However 2 years in a class to you guys is superior to 2 years out of class studying and practicing by myself, so...........



> This shows that the fine points were missed on video.



But the fine points were shown on video, it was an honest mistake on my part for missing it.  I went back and looked at the reference forms and there it was.  That doesn't mean I missed EVERY fine point however.  

It might've taken a bit longer, but a correction would've been made at some point whether it would be months or years.  Like I said, I'm learning new things every day.  I don't make corrections just by watching though.  I need to pair it up with written reference first.

My suspicion is that I picked up on total relaxation practice and applied it to the first section of the form and thus, my Wu Sao being in a completely relaxed state (but not straight)


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Going on two years now. However 2 years in a class to you guys is superior to 2 years out of class studying and practicing by myself, so...........


 
Yes, I feel that classroom learning is better than video.  Now, if you were use video as a reference, thats difference.  Ex:  I train in Kenpo.  Lets say that I moved to an area, where the closest Parker Kenpo school, was 8hrs away.  So, I make trips every other month to train with the teacher, but in the meantime, I buy Larry Tatums dvd set, to help with my review of what I already know.  

Then again, that is only a tool, for the simple fact that the school that I would be training at is Planas lineage.  Huk Planas trained with Parker, however, it'd be foolish to think that every Parker student moves the same.  We're not robots, so what I may be doing, could differ.





> But the fine points were shown on video, it was an honest mistake on my part for missing it. I went back and looked at the reference forms and there it was. That doesn't mean I missed EVERY fine point however.
> 
> It might've taken a bit longer, but a correction would've been made at some point whether it would be months or years. Like I said, I'm learning new things every day. I don't make corrections just by watching though. I need to pair it up with written reference first.
> 
> My suspicion is that I picked up on total relaxation practice and applied it to the first section of the form and thus, my Wu Sao being in a completely relaxed state (but not straight)


 
So, when its question time, what do you do?  You're going thru the dvd, learning a form, a tech, whatever from it, and you're confused on something.  Now what?   Try to figure it out yourself, ask online, etc?


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## coffeerox (Aug 8, 2010)

> So, when its question time, what do you do? You're going thru the dvd, learning a form, a tech, whatever from it, and you're confused on something. Now what? Try to figure it out yourself, ask online, etc?



I'll ask the question and usually it gets answered by a knowledgeable teacher or practitioner.  A bit of humor here, I do have to be on the down low about self-training LOL


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I'll ask the question and usually it gets answered by a knowledgeable teacher or practitioner.


 
Do you have live access to this teacher?  If so, is it possible to train with him?




> A bit of humor here, I do have to be on the down low about self-training LOL


 
And why do you say that? LOL


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## coffeerox (Aug 8, 2010)

> Do you have live access to this teacher? If so, is it possible to train with him?



Teacher(s) and unfortunately I don't.  If I had the money I'd make the trips but not possible at this moment.


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## Rion (Aug 8, 2010)

I was not going to get involved in this thread but am pissed off at how many people can comment on a thread just to moan and argue like a bunch of old women when i have been waiting for a day for someone to comment on my thread and give me alittle bit of advice about the question i posted. I thought thats why we were here to help eachother out.


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## geezer (Aug 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Teacher(s) and unfortunately I don't.  If I had the money I'd make the trips but not possible at this moment.



Believe it or not, this whole conversation has actually been helpful to me in a funny way. The last couple of weeks I've been debating on whether or not to go to an out of state seminar with my old Escrima instructor. I actually made instructor rank under him back in the 80s, but eventually had to stop training. I went back to a seminar with him a few years back and since then have been working out regularly with some other guys who are very good, but in a different. style of FMA. I also teach a bit of Escrima, but haven't been back to get checked out by my old instructor. I keep telling myself that I have a dozen of his DVDs and I practice regularly with other guys who are really good... so I  don't need to bust my bank account, miss work, make excuses to my wife, and go out of state for a weekend of seminars and a private lesson or two.

No, I don't need to do that. _I can train on my own right?_ *WRONG*. After weeks of debating with myself, I've just made up my mind... thanks in part to this thread. _I'm going to the seminar._ Maybe some of you will be there for the _Wing Tzun_ portion of the instruction?


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## jks9199 (Aug 8, 2010)

Ladies and gentlemen,

Let's please try to recall that MartialTalk, even in the Wing Chun forum, is supposed to be "dedicated to the Polite and Professional exploration" of the martial arts.  (It's right up there in the top banner.)

Avoid the personal shots, and stick to the issues, rather than dropping into name calling and the like.  Otherwise, more formal action will become necessary.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2010)

Actually, much like that other thread, this one is, at this stage, pretty pointless.  Maybe what we should do, seeing that these threads never produce anything of quality, is to lock them right away, with a note to use the search feature.  I mean, whats the point?  I've yet to see anything productive out of these types of threads.  The only thing they produce is a bunch of reported posts for the non-involved mods to deal with.  

You have 2 sides....1 that feels that video training is good, 1 that thinks it sucks.  Neither side wants to budge.

I still stand by what I've said....nothing will replace a live teacher.  If someone doesnt have the means to train or has other personal issues, again, my suggestion is to put training on the backburner, and get your priorities in order.  This is not directed at any one person in this thread, but to anyone thats considering video learning.  As a reference tool, yeah, dvds are great.  Sole learning...they suck.  No dvd or tape is that good that it's going to give all the same info that a live teacher will.  All you're doing is mimicking, at best, the movements.  

People want to make money, so what better way to do it, than with video training, that'll supposedly teach you an art.  What these teachers never tell you, is that you're only getting a piece of the puzzle.  Do you honestly think that these teachers will tell you this?  Of course not, because they want to make $$$$$.


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 8, 2010)

I wish I was coming out for the wing tzun seminar!
We have Sifu Micheal Casey coming out sometime in september though, so I can hold tight!


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## WC_lun (Aug 8, 2010)

Would you trust a doctor that taught himself or learned from books or video tapes only?  Would you trust a doctor that was trained by someone who was not a doctor?  Would you let such a doctor reccomend treatment for you or even perform surgery on you? If you are practicing martial arts and you are teaching yourself, you are trusting your training to a beginner that does not have the experience to train anyone.  Your health could be what you are gambling. Ever heard the saying about lawyers that represent themselves?  Very similiar case here. There really is no substititure for training with a qualified instructor. Period.

I've heard the arguement that some guy somewhere made the martial systems we have today.  If he can do it, so can I!  That just isn't true.  The fellows that designed the true combat systems, such as Wing Chun, learned what worked and didn't work from generations of military men and kung fu fighters.  Those men in turn, learned what worked from real combat.  Not sporting events, but real combat.  If they didn't learn what worked, they didn't survive to teach anyone.  These men were not learning second hand and they were not dealing in theorycraft.

Today we are fortunate in that we have the experience of so many generations of fighting men and the relative easy access to information to find those men.  However, it is also no longer acceptable to challenge an instructor to find out if they really understand fighting.  Today there are many, many instructors that are pretenders.  These instructors are never tested and they get so good at living the fantasy they don't even know that what they do is not based on reality.  Believing you can learn to be a real martial artist from DVDs, books, and limited interaction with others is just not living in the real world.

My advice is wait until you can find a real teacher.  Save your money instead of buying training tools that won't work.  Eventually you will be in a place where you will be able to learn and there will be a teacher there willing to teach you.


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## matsu (Aug 9, 2010)

i said i wasnt going to do this but i can help myself...

when you first posted you asked for help and as far i saw, you got lots of help and offers and advice. you came acros,to me, far from respectful and humble, and whined a lot ...ahell of alot, about circumstances and yet you got more offers of help.
then because you were being told stuff you didnt like,you got disrespectful and aggressive,......thats where you got into a sticky place with the majority of guys on here.
this might be a pointless exercise but i,m stoopid enough to reply lol.
let me re-iterate. i have *no problem* with you self training and you have my *grudging respect* for your perserverence.i have a minor issue with you spouting knowledge and how wellll your doing in wing chun when you have never experienced it first hand at a genuine club with experienced practioners.so you dont eally know if you are doing well because you have no real experience in real wing chun.the guys you train with might have been taught by someones second cousins hamster who did wing chun for a few yrs but thats not good enough.
i am not picking on you, i have no issue with you.i wish you well in your training pursuits and you might be a real superman with scary natural talents who is the second coming of ip man ready to reunite the far and wide scattered warring factions of the wing chuntzutsun tribes
but i have a real problem with some of the rubbish you have been verbalising as if you know better than the rest of us.
you say,and ill quote
*Because I pay attention to the minor minor details. I grab new concepts about the form as it slowly builds together into a better SNT. It's constantly improving from when I copied the movements,*
*-*again from books vids and online-there are now new concepts about the form,its the same as its always (been depending on which lineage) you will need some guidence from a sifu-i can teach a beginner the form but i still need my sifu to perfect it
you-
*do not care about being respected. One of the martial art maxims is to be humble. I do have a problem with people treating me like an idiot. Like I said, I may suck at Wing Chun, but I am not a moron. You don't know me.*
and
*You can't just say something about somebody else and turn out to be true. You have no way to prove it and these posts aren't going to help you b/c you don't know me.*

you have said this* and i agree* and in the same way you cannot know or read people online-there is no afflection of tone no accent so volume or speed of what has been said and unless you are a "superbeing" you cannot read people online.

you said
*Also want to add that what we may do differently is the research. I'm constantly watching seminars, reading articles, I just simply have more information than you do. That's not my fault that you did not supplement your training which is what this material does. You have a sifu, +1 years ahead of me in an actual class and I turn out to do the form better than you do lol.*

omg did you just say that...c'mooooooon, i thought you could read people online??? what am i thinking now? yep you know it baby!
how do you know you have more info than i do? please.... i have the internet i have books dvds i am an avid collector of my interests.. do you have my sifus dvds? i have all this stuff the same as you *AND i have my sifu.* i train 6 hours per week at my club plus my own training with a partner and on my dummy.
and yes i will bow down to your greatness and you must do the form better than i and you surely can kick my ars
.........because you are a superbeing alworldly with untold riches due to your many psychic powers and bruce lee like MA talents.
mmmm we digress.......
all the guys have said on here constantly to you and the OP of the this thread which you have ruined by the way with your incessent diatribe
is that you need a good sifu to be good at wing chun.
then you can self train and use other resources to perfect what you are being taught, you then need someone who knows what they are doing to then adjust correct and give feedback on your progress and then you go away and work it again.
please listen, this is not a withchunt gainst you, we are trying to help you.
and as far as i can tell we have tried and even wished you the best ofluck with your pursuit
and it has been my pleasure just communicating with the messiah
thank you for gracing my life with your touch
matsu


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## wushuguy (Aug 9, 2010)

geezer said:


> Believe it or not, this whole conversation has actually been helpful to me in a funny way. The last couple of weeks I've been debating on whether or not to go to an out of state seminar with my old Escrima instructor. I actually made instructor rank under him back in the 80s, but eventually had to stop training. I went back to a seminar with him a few years back and since then have been working out regularly with some other guys who are very good, but in a different. style of FMA. I also teach a bit of Escrima, but haven't been back to get checked out by my old instructor. I keep telling myself that I have a dozen of his DVDs and I practice regularly with other guys who are really good... so I  don't need to bust my bank account, miss work, make excuses to my wife, and go out of state for a weekend of seminars and a private lesson or two.
> 
> No, I don't need to do that. _I can train on my own right?_ *WRONG*. After weeks of debating with myself, I've just made up my mind... thanks in part to this thread. _I'm going to the seminar._ Maybe some of you will be there for the _Wing Tzun_ portion of the instruction?



it reminds me why even a sifu needs to go back to his sifu for more instruction at least once in a while for correction and improvement. While we always learn and even can manage to "teach ourself" a thing or two, it's still much better to learn first hand from those with more experience than grope around hoping to find it on our own. hope you have a good time at the seminar


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 9, 2010)

This will be my last post in this thread, we've beaten this dead horse until it's only skin and bones laying in the dirt.

I want to thank in particular Geezer, MJS, Nabakatsu, matsu, and Grenadier for giving support to a very touchy subject, and trying to make the poor kid understand the error in his belief.  I know you guys understand what I was trying to make him understand.

To coffeerox, I'm sorry if you feel persecuted and disrespected, that was not my intent in engaging in this discussion.  But you have to understand, there are to many people out there trying to practice or teach Wing Chun who are self taught, have only had a lesson or two, or none at all and trying to pass themselves off as Sifus, teaching people a load of crap.  I have 27 years Wing Chun experience (38 year martial arts in all), teach class three times a week, train 2 or 3 days a week, plus continue to visit my Sifu 6 or 7 times a year (he's 150 miles away) for seminars, workshops, instructor training, etc.  I'm tired of meeting people who berate Wing Chun saying it's a worthless art because they trained for a short time or was ripped off by some ******* that never really trained in Wing Chun.

So please, _*please*_, don't train on your own or train using dvd's video tapes, and books.  Find a qualified sifu, train with Geezer, train with a live qualified sifu, even if it's just once a week, or once every 2 weeks.  I'm sure someone would be willing to do something about tuition, pay by the class instead of monthly, something.  At the very least you'll be under the guidance of a real sifu who can fix things before they go too wrong.  Then you'll be surprised how much faster you'll progress.  With all your Superman abilities it will be much easy.

Good luck and I wish you the best.


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## matsu (Aug 9, 2010)

Rion said:


> I was not going to get involved in this thread but am pissed off at how many people can comment on a thread just to moan and argue like a bunch of old women when i have been waiting for a day for someone to comment on my thread and give me alittle bit of advice about the question i posted. I thought thats why we were here to help eachother out.


 
rion. we are not bitching and moaning, believe it or not we are trying to help a misguided soul find his path back to enlightenment!

and i have posted on your thread.i believe i was the first-did you look at the website? did you know they do a wallbag dvd?

i post very little on a lot of threads as i feel i am unable to give valuable advice with my relative experience in wing chun.
(i am a wing chun student of just over two yrs and my progress has been slow(imo) but good.and i am happy with my progress.
i did two styles of karate for a total of 9 yrs before that was stopped  only by injuries that made it un viable to continue the high kicking and impacting dynamics on my hips and lower back.)

so i post only if i feel i am able to really help,or to give a different opinion that might help.....but what i have learnt on here is that despite differences of lineage and opinions i have always been able to enjoy the debates and advice help and sincere attempts to share and progress this great style despite the fact we have never met each other.
please dont judge this forum based on this thread,you would miss out on so much goodstuff if you did that.
matsu


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## IrishMonk (Aug 9, 2010)

Coffeerox... If I was you I'd post some videos of your progress. At best, you will silence the nay sayers... and at the very least you would get feedback on your form etc that could be helpful to you...


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## coffeerox (Aug 9, 2010)

IrishMonk said:


> Coffeerox... If I was you I'd post some videos of your progress. At best, you will silence the nay sayers... and at the very least you would get feedback on your form etc that could be helpful to you...



I wish I could but I don't have a cam.  I was going to buy one of those Microsoft LifeCam's but financially things took a turn for the worse a few months back.  I don't even think I'll be able to come here after next week b/c I'll lose my internet.


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## Tanaka (Aug 9, 2010)

I do not do Chinese Martial arts, but I have background of self training and teacher training. My theory is... Self training itself is not bad. It's the fact that it's not for everybody. Some people can self teach themselves better than others. I grew up self teaching myself about computers. When I finally got into classes for computers. I was lightyears ahead of all the other students, and not far from advanced levels.
Now back to martial arts. I self taught myself martial arts for awhile, before I actually got under a legit teacher. By the time I came into an actual dojo, once again I was lightyears ahead of the other beginners. And during sparring I easily put them away, and displayed beyond white belt level of technique.(I was a very dangerous white belt :ultracool). Here is the kicker though. There was holes that were missing that needed to be filled. These holes were pretty much basics, but here is another kicker. It did not take me long to plug these holes. I imagine it only took weeks upon my teacher teaching me and reminding me during sparring. Now here is what I learned. I saw that in a very short amount of time my skills and technique increased EXTREMELY fast(Training in the Dojo compared to self training). To the point that I surprise myself and cannot believe what I've done. It turns out my ability to self teach myself to such a good extent was due to my ability to LEARN extremely well and fast. So I have concluded that by self teaching you're not going to improve as fast as you would if you were actually being taught, but self teaching did not really make bad habits that were hard to break(Unless you're stubborn and not open minded).
The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself at a white belt level, when you find legit training.

Now to relate to the argument of this thread. Do not be infuriated with Coffeerox. He is free to self train as this is a free world. He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true). So he is obviously not promoting self teaching, or encouraging others to self teach themselves. But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible. Or do not expect to be taken serious(until proving yourself). Because it's not fair to say you're representing an art, when you have no official teaching from someone in that art.


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## mook jong man (Aug 10, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> I do not do Chinese Martial arts, but I have background of self training and teacher training. My theory is... Self training itself is not bad. It's the fact that it's not for everybody. Some people can self teach themselves better than others. I grew up self teaching myself about computers. When I finally got into classes for computers. I was lightyears ahead of all the other students, and not far from advanced levels.
> Now back to martial arts. I self taught myself martial arts for awhile, before I actually got under a legit teacher. By the time I came into an actual dojo, once again I was lightyears ahead of the other beginners. And during sparring I easily put them away, and displayed beyond white belt level of technique.(I was a very dangerous white belt :ultracool). Here is the kicker though. There was holes that were missing that needed to be filled. These holes were pretty much basics, but here is another kicker. It did not take me long to plug these holes. I imagine it only took weeks upon my teacher teaching me and reminding me during sparring. Now here is what I learned. I saw that in a very short amount of time my skills and technique increased EXTREMELY fast(Training in the Dojo compared to self training). To the point that I surprise myself and cannot believe what I've done. It turns out my ability to self teach myself to such a good extent was due to my ability to LEARN extremely well and fast. So I have concluded that by self teaching you're not going to improve as fast as you would if you were actually being taught, but self teaching did not really make bad habits that were hard to break(Unless you're stubborn and not open minded).
> The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself at a white belt level, when you find legit training.
> 
> Now to relate to the argument of this thread. Do not be infuriated with Coffeerox. He is free to self train as this is a free world. He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true). So he is obviously not promoting self teaching, or encouraging others to self teach themselves. But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible. Or do not expect to be taken serious(until proving yourself). Because it's not fair to say you're representing an art, when you have no official teaching from someone in that art.


 
Give me a bloody break , massive volumes  could be written on the subject of Chi Sau alone .

Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings balance.

This is something that cannot be learned from books or videos , you need to experience it and be on the recieving end of it from an experienced qualified Master to understand it or at least those instructors taught by one.
Wing Chun is a system in which precision counts , a fraction of an inch out of position means the difference between being hit and not being hit.
Things like " Forward Force " can't be seen on a video , things like the
internal contraction Tei Gong can't be seen on a video.

There is a **** load more to it than just copying the external movements , just like an iceberg most of it is underneath the surface.

In 1989 I first started learning Wing Chun and began the process of learning Chi Sau , I say learning , because to this day I am still learning it.
My best student will still get the odd hit in occasionally , anybody who's truthful about training knows **** happens.

Each time I teach or train I hope to make some minor improvement both in physical technique and my level of understanding.

In Wing Chun you learn a bit from your classmates , your seniors , from trial and error and of course from your Sifu.

I can only imagine that trying to teach yourself would be like trying to search for a needle in a hay stack or find an answer to a question when you don't even know what the question is .

Unfortunately there are about 10 ways to do a technique  wrong and only one way to do it right in Wing Chun.

It is insulting in the extreme to believe that people think they can learn a system such as Wing Chun off  Youtube or from books , videos etc.

Sure you can ape the movements or pull off a reasonable facsimile of a technique , but it will never be the same as that of someone taught by a qualified Master , someone who has put in the hard yards in terms of sweat and black eyes , bloody noses , busted lips , concussions etc over periods of years.

I meet these YouTube practitioners all the time at the Rugby oval where I teach one of my private students , it seems to be a modern phenomenon like Facebook and Myspace.

I get sick of them interrupting the lesson and wasting my time so I use them as " Fresh Meat " for my student , he doesn't hurt them , but only controls them .

I actually tell the You Tube trained individual to try and hit my student , they struggle away trying to fire off shots at him , he just redirects the attempted hits and keeps rolling.

Then after a brief time the You Tube person is completely fatigued and breathing heavily , bent at the waist and holding themselves up hands on knees , because my student has learned to correctly transfer his body weight through his arms and worn the poor sucker out.
You can't learn this from videos , it has to be felt.

I offer to teach these people and believe me I only charge a small amount , less than half the amount charged by a personal trainer in these parts.

Some say yes and you never see them again , or they come up with excuses as to why they can't train at the moment.
I believe what happens is that they are confronted by their own short comings and the shot to the ego is too much.

Their delusions of grandeur are shattered , when they realise just how much how much bloody hard work it takes just to become adequate in this system.


Of course those of us who have been trained in genuine Wing Chun / Wing Tsun academies are immune to these blows to the ego , as we came up through the ranks we were regularly used as " Fresh Meat " and " Human Punching Bags " by senior instructors and higher grades.

Any superiority complex you might have had was quickly beaten out of you , this might seem old school and brutal and probably wouldn't fly in todays world of " I think I will sue because my coffee was too hot " society .

But the thing was it worked , it really sorted out the wankers from the people who were really serious about learning , because usually the wankers left as they realised they weren't the supreme demi gods they thought they were.

 Their delusions of grandeur are shattered , when they realise just how much how much bloody hard work it takes just to become adequate in this system.

I really fear for the future of Wing Chun and martial arts in general , are future generations destined to be taught by Internet Sifu's and Senseis.
People who's only connection to the martial art they purport to be teaching is through You Tube videos , books etc.


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 10, 2010)

Well said mook, thanks for such a great response.


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## Tanaka (Aug 10, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Give me a bloody break , massive volumes  could be written on the subject of Chi Sau alone .
> 
> Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings balance.
> 
> ...


I do not think you have read my opinion fully. You seem to have taken that "I want people to self teach themselves" from my opinion. When that is not what I said.

I believe some of what I have already said will help here.


_*"He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true)."*_


_*"But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not  true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as  soon as possible."*_


The problem I have with statements like these 
_*"Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually  learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings  balance.

This is something that cannot be learned from books or videos , you need  to experience it and be on the recieving end of it from an experienced  qualified Master to understand it or at least those instructors taught  by one."*_ 

Is that in reality the only way for a human being to pick up information are through 5 senses(so far). In the video you use sight and hearing. This is how you're learning. In the school. What are you using? Essentially the same senses, but with an added touching.(Maybe smell&taste?) Now the medium of which the information is traveling to your senses is different of course. The "personal" medium of the school is a better atmosphere. Because it is one that you can communicate back with and receive a quick response. Asking question is a good way to increase learning, and videos are lacking this ability. BUT the original way you're learning your lessons in class is having your teacher demonstrate it in front of you. That is how you FIRST learn, and if that is not done FIRST. Then the other things that help improve learning the technique will fail.
The video has this demonstration that teaches you. But the reason why it is not as proficient as having a teacher, is due to a couple reasons.
1)You cannot ask questions, and if you can it makes it harder for the teacher since hes not there.
2)You cannot have teacher perform technique on you

These come after the original lesson from teacher(Which is the demonstration using sight and hearing)
If you have a teacher who is good at teaching through a video tape medium. I believe your absolute statements of "You absolutely cannot" are wrong.

Please don't misunderstand me for saying that you will be proficient in the art by self teaching. But I disagree(based on my own experience). That nothing can be learned on your own. 

Also keep in mind another one of my premise.
"Some people can self teach themselves better than others."


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## mook jong man (Aug 10, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> I do not think you have read my opinion fully. You seem to have taken that "I want people to self teach themselves" from my opinion. When that is not what I said.
> 
> I believe some of what I have already said will help here.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry but you have zero understanding of Chi Sau , which is one of the cornerstones of the Wing Chun system.

It *ABSOLUTELY *can't be learned through video , books , irnternet etc.

 It *NEEDS HANDS ON INSTRUCTION* from a genuine qualified master or instructors under the tutelage of a genuine qualified master.

Not too mention getting hit a few million times by people with all different body shapes , sizes and different types of energy.
Then making the necessary micro adjustments so that you are not hit in the future.

Even with all these things it can still be bloody hard , so please don't give me this crap about learning off a friggin video.

You learn alright , you learn when your instructor's palm strike keeps thudding into your chest or why his Tan Sau keeps ending up around your ear lobes.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

mook jong man:  I think the reason why I won't fully agree is because the only thing absent from online lessons is feel and on-the-fly correction.  

As long as the teacher is giving good instruction, the student should be able to use what he has learned with a partner and then practice until they understand what is being told and shown on the video.  

There's lots of factors to self-training that you most-likely are not aware of.  You need to be able to absorb new information fairly quickly.  You must be able to research and cross-reference many things since information is given to you only one time and sometimes, clarification is unavailable and assistance is required.  Self-trainers must be more dedicated than a normal person because they have to figure it out the hard way.  By doing, making mistakes, etc.

You see, this is quite a complex process already and you can't expect average, everyday people to come out of this undertaking as good as a student who has trained with you for years.  

Also take into account the completeness of online lessons.  Doing it yourself requires in-depth information that you don't even get in class.  The online Sifu must cover everything related to that lesson, as well as come up with a lesson plan suitable for online learning.  This is one part that I feel is lacking with online lessons.  Well, there's really only 1 online curriculum out there (Master Wong) and he doesn't teach all of the names of the techniques and he's seriously lacking instruction on body structure.  He only recently began to upload the how-to's on the form from his lineage.

Like Tanaka, I learned computers by myself as well, and a lot of that is due to research and actual experience working with a computer's hardware and software.  I'm not certified, but I can build my own computer with whatever specs I want, features, you name it, I can do it.  I can also setup my own network with appropriate security.  To many, this is a very complex thing that they only trust to professionals.  Are you going to tell me I can't do this?

About the bad practitioners, well there may be some factors to it that you may not have considered.  Have you asked how far they've gone in their lessons?  Are you doing Chi Sao with them when they have not gotten to that point, or have had a partner to practice Chi Sao with?  Do they train with a partner, or do they go solo?  Next time, before you just drop Chi Sao on them, go over the basics by asking some questions and asking them to demonstrate the basics (such as form)  You're a teacher right? You should be able to gauge where their skill level is and simply refuse because they are not at that level yet.

Back to online learning.  This is an area that is exploding for many different things, not just martial arts.  Many technical schools and universities are offering online courses in which there is no hands on.  It's all done via a browser, maybe some videos and a chat channel.  

Martial arts online learning is not yet at a level where it's entirely viable to do it with just you and a partner, however, I do not believe it's an impossibility.  We just need a guy out there, somewhere, that is able to transmit the entire system in a format that is possible for two practitioners to absorb and practice on their own.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

> It ABSOLUTELY can't be learned through video , books , irnternet etc.



I agree with you, however people like Master Wong utilizes punch drills (similar to Lat Sao of WT) that works in aspects from Chi Sao so that you're not totally unfamiliar with it.  Lat Sao from WT, is supposed to be an easy to teach drill that makes Chi Sao easier to get into.


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## mook jong man (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I agree with you, however people like Master Wong utilizes punch drills (similar to Lat Sao of WT) that works in aspects from Chi Sao so that you're not totally unfamiliar with it. Lat Sao from WT, is supposed to be an easy to teach drill that makes Chi Sao easier to get into.


 
We already have things that make Chi Sau easier to get into , they're called Sil Lum Tao form and single sticking hands.
Thats as easy as it gets I'm afraid.


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## WC_lun (Aug 10, 2010)

None are so blind as those that won't see.

Mook Jon man, everything you said is true, but some won't listen to you, even though it is obvious you have experience behind what you are saying.  Let it be.  We've said our peace.  If it does good and helps someone actually find a teacher and really learn then great.  If not, then let them live in thier fantasy.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> None are so blind as those that won't see.
> 
> Mook Jon man, everything you said is true, but some won't listen to you, even though it is obvious you have experience behind what you are saying.  Let it be.  We've said our peace.  If it does good and helps someone actually find a teacher and really learn then great.  If not, then let them live in thier fantasy.



What are you talking about?  Both me and Tanaku are in agreement with mook jong man.  However we are trying to get you guys to understand a bit more about what self-training is, even if it's not martial arts.

To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here.  You can't dismiss something you don't know about.  Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training.  Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.


 
Actually, I know quite a bit about self teaching.  My Kenpo schools would give handouts to the students, for each belt level.  On these hand outs, would be listed all of the basics, katas and techs for that belt level, as well as written beakdowns of the techs.  The guides were to be used as just that...A GUIDE, not a tool to replace a live teacher.  Some students would use the guide to go thru all of the techs, then they would come to class and proceed to tell me they were ready to be tested on their SD techs.  I would think, how is this possible, seeing they just got their new rank?  More mistakes than I could count.  Sure, some techs were simple enough to figure out, but I still had to make corrections, even if they were minor ones.  Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out.


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## matsu (Aug 10, 2010)

its stupid me again...getting involved in a discussion that has got so pointless its riduclous lol but here i am again..

*Originally Posted by Tanaka **

*
_*I do not do Chinese Martial arts,* _
_tanaka- i did karate for 9yrs and i could have learnt a fair bit of that via video and i would have picked up bad habits and they could have been corrected at a later stage so i agree that in my experience i could ahave got what you did,i am afraid i will disagree when it comes to wingchun._
_it is a whole different ball game and unless you get to touch hands with an experienced practioner you will never know because as mook says, you have to feel it!_
_forget what you have seen on youtube etc unless you are rolling with someone you will never know how it works or how damn difficult it is.....and more importanlty WHY we do it!_


_*Like Tanaka, I learned computers by myself as well, and a lot of that is due to research and actual experience working with a computer's hardware and software. I'm not certified, but I can build my own computer with whatever specs I want, features, you name it, I can do it. I can also setup my own network with appropriate security. To* *many, this is a very complex thing that they only trust to professionals. Are you going to tell me I can't do this?*_

_coffeerox- *computers dont fight back *please dont compare online learning computers with martial arts. you cant learn to drive a car onlne anymore than you can learn a sensory experience like to feel someones taan pressing outward so you can feel when to slip inside._

_again...NO ONE HAS SAID DONT SELF LEARN,all we have said is you be able to do good wing chun with out a sifu to teach guide correct you is not possible_
_find a class or a teacher let them show you something and then go away and drill it to death,then come back get corrceted if need be,learn a new thing and repeat._
_and mIster wongs wing chun is not real wing chun,it is a mismash of everything he could find.i like watching the guy and have learnt a few things from his hiwariowous vids, i dont doubt the guy is good in a fight just not at wing chun._

_*tanaka*_
_*Now to relate to the argument of this thread. Do not be infuriated with Coffeerox. He is free to self train as this is a free world. He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true). So he is obviously not promoting self teaching, or encouraging others to self teach themselves. But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible. Or do not expect to be taken serious(until proving yourself). Because it's not fair to say you're representing an art, when you have no official teaching from someone in that art.* _

_i believe we have tried for 5 or is it 6 pages on this thread alone to say just that._
_it is not coffeerox position that infuriates us, it is non acceptance and attitude to the more experienced "real" wingchun practioners who have been trying to help him._
_matsu_


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

Sigh....another useless thread, but I've got nothing better to do right now, so I'll reply on deaf ears again. 

So, to all of the online sokes out there..lol...you all think that its just feel and on the fly correction?  I beg to differ.  You people are comparing a physical activity to reading text online from a college. LMAO!  Thanks for the morning laugh.   Basically, you people would rather progress, mistakes and all, and then go back and make corrections, rather than getting questions answered, mistakes fixed, right then and there.  Basically you guys are learning twice.  Its like taking 1 step forward and 5 back. LOL!

I should start my own online study group, so I could get a 2nd paycheck.  1 check from my full time job, and the 2nd from the suckers, who think they're learning, when they're really not.  

Oh well, nothing I or anyone else says will matter, because the do it yourselfers, wont listen.  

Of course, what I find very funny, is the folks who complain they got no money to train with a live teacher, but they got that money for video lessons?  Hmmmm.......alrighty then. LMAO!!!


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> What are you talking about? Both me and Tanaku are in agreement with mook jong man. However we are trying to get you guys to understand a bit more about what self-training is, even if it's not martial arts.
> 
> To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.


 
I said I was done with this thread, but some dead horses won't stay dead.

Coffeerox, both mook jong man and me, and every one else who has opposed your opinion know what you're telling us.  Maybe you think self teaching works for you and Tanaku, fine.  You're entitled to your opinion.  But for the rest of us mere mortals, it's the wrong thing to do.  Wing Chun is not computers, nor is it anything like Karate.  The only thing Wing Chun and Karate have in common is they are both self defense systems.  I know because I was a successful Karate stylist for 11 years.

Don't think I don't understand your point of view.  I found out about all the pitfalls of self teaching myself.  Thirty years ago me and a close friend tried to self teach ourselves Wing CHun and it failed miserably.  I was a very successful Shotokan sytlist, tournament fighter (got the trophies and the belts and the certificates to prove it somewhere in the attic), and a top notch athlete.  When I finally found a sifu, I had to unlearn all the wrong and bad stuff I was doing.  And I thought it was correct because it looked just like it did in the books.  Boy, were we *WAY* off base.

Wing Chun is a complex and very technical art.  There are some things you can learn on your own, but not very much.  You can learn to punch, learn to block, learn to mimick forms.  But even that should have the guidance of a qualified sifu to get it right.  It's like knowing how to build a skyscraper, anybody can just slap 4 walls together and call it a day.  But for it to be useful and safe, you have to know (most times go to school to learn construction) something about construction, building materials, how the whole process works, and then apprentice for sometime, and then have a building license, before you can build that skyscraper.  To fully understand, teach and use Wing Chun properly, it's pretty much the same idea.

Self teaching is fine for some things.  But not brain surgery, astro physics, and Wing Chun.  It's too complex and difficult to do without the guidance of a qualified instructor.


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## WC_lun (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> What are you talking about? Both me and Tanaku are in agreement with mook jong man. However we are trying to get you guys to understand a bit more about what self-training is, even if it's not martial arts.
> 
> To be fair, we know about self-training and you don't, it's natural that Tanaka and I have more authority on the subject than anybody else here. You can't dismiss something you don't know about. Even if you are experienced in martial arts, you haven't tried to self-train one with the experience of self-training. Like I said before, that is a skill in itself.


 

Yes, I do have experience with "self-training."  I've taught myself lots of things.  More important for this discussion I have over twenty years of training in various martial arts.  For all of those years I have seen young men come in that were self-taught.  Without an exception...I'll repeat that part, WITHOUT AN EXCEPTION none of them were good at kung fu.  Some were phycially gifted and some very intellegent.  However, they lacked fundamental knowledges that are the building blocks of good solid martial arts.  How are you so different from any of these other young men?  The odds say that you aren't.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 10, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> Is that in reality the only way for a human being to pick up information are through 5 senses(so far). In the video you use sight and hearing. This is how you're learning. In the school. What are you using? Essentially the same senses, but with an added touching.(Maybe smell&taste?). . . . . BUT the original way you're learning your lessons in class is having your teacher demonstrate it in front of you. That is how you FIRST learn, and if that is not done FIRST.


 
I beg to differ with you. I had a student for 3 months, several years ago who was blind. Yes, *blind! *Try teaching a blind person with a video tape or through pictures in a book. Or even just letting them watch you demonstrate, hahahahahaha. Sorry, doesn't work that way. The sense of touch for the sighted, blind, hearing impared, and everyone else is one of the best ways to learn. You can't fake the sense of touch, and the body and mind learns really quickly that way. 

Sight is by far the more accepted way of teaching. However, every night in class I demonstrate something, only to go to each individual student because they are doing it wrong, and do what I demonstrated hands on. Because they feel the energy and what is happening, they learn how to do it correctly. And they pick it up much faster. Wing Chun is what we call a touchy-feely art. No way to get around it to learn it correctly.

The other night I had students doing chi sao blindfolded, so they could do the drills without seeing. Forcing them to feel what was going on instead of relying on what they thought they saw. Once you take your sight out of the equasion, feeling is the only way to understand what is happening. Videos, books, self teaching can't help you there. And chi sao is one of the most important learning experiences in Wing Chun. Sorry, self teaching can't help you there, you need a live person, who knows what they are doing, for that.


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## matsu (Aug 10, 2010)

*Sight is by far the more accepted way of teaching. However, every night in class I demonstrate something, only to go to each individual student because they are doing it wrong, and do what I demonstrated hands on. Because they feel the energy and what is happening, they learn how to do it correctly.*

zepedawingchun- i have only done about 5-6 hours worth of chisau and i am actually better at it with my eyes closed at this stage in my progress because its stops me trying to pre empt a move or watching the hands.
this is insane and im still very very bad at it but im trying to prove a point about feeling the way and that it cannot be learnt by just watching,be it a live demo or esp a vid etc.
matsu


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## Tanaka (Aug 10, 2010)

MJS said:


> Actually, I know quite a bit about self teaching.  My Kenpo schools would give handouts to the students, for each belt level.  On these hand outs, would be listed all of the basics, katas and techs for that belt level, as well as written beakdowns of the techs.  The guides were to be used as just that...A GUIDE, not a tool to replace a live teacher.  Some students would use the guide to go thru all of the techs, then they would come to class and proceed to tell me they were ready to be tested on their SD techs.  I would think, how is this possible, seeing they just got their new rank?  More mistakes than I could count.  Sure, some techs were simple enough to figure out, but I still had to make corrections, even if they were minor ones.  Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out.




_*" Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out."*_

< That is what I said as well.

See here, 

I said, _*"The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end  up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself  at a white belt level, when you find legit training."
*_ 

But the fact here is... That it's not impossible to learn something through self teaching. Just very difficult. As humans we cannot possess the knowledge to make an absolute claim. And even if you had no luck in self training yourself before reaching a school. Doesn't mean it's impossible for everyone. 
I can turn the tables. What if I didn't do as good as I did with my self training?
I(myself) could still not say it absolutely cannot be done, but have only proven that it's very difficult.

I still do self training. Sometimes after a day at the dojo. I will watch youtube videos of the same technique I learned. And sometimes it helps me out a lot. Because people learn differently. The way your teacher explains it, might not be as easy for you to grasp as the way someone else might state it. Because people have different worldviews and take in information differently. Or even amongst your senior students trying to help you with a technique. The way they say it might make it more clearer than the way your teacher just said it. You're also correct in the fact that I do not know what Chi Sao is, but I just find it hard to believe it cannot be learned at all(even in a poor way) through a video demonstration.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 10, 2010)

matsu said:


> zepedawingchun- i have only done about 5-6 hours worth of chisau and i am actually better at it with my eyes closed at this stage in my progress because its stops me trying to pre empt a move or watching the hands.
> this is insane and im still very very bad at it but im trying to prove a point about feeling the way and that it cannot be learnt by just watching,be it a live demo or esp a vid etc.
> matsu


 
Just keep at it, it does get better.  Don't let your eyes fool you.  By relying on what you feel, you will be ahead of everyone else in the game.  It takes a bit of time to get good at chi sao, don't become disappointed or let it bring you down.  The more you do it the better you get.  And don't be affraid to ask your sifu questions, cross hands with as many seniors as possible.  To be the best you have to train with the best.  Good luck.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2010)

Cofferox:  You are absolutely right.  After stepping back and considering your well thought out and logical ideas, I see now that I have been completely mistaken all along and I am willing to recant my earlier position.  You are on the best path for you, and you will surely rise to the upper eshelon of wing chun.  Best wishes on your training.

perhaps there's nothing left to say here.


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> _*" Fact is, they'd have been able to progress quicker, had they let a teacher teach them, rather than try to figure it out."*_
> 
> < That is what I said as well.
> 
> ...




Sooooo....if that is the case, wouldn't it make much more sense to wait until you can train under a live teacher?  I do Parker Kenpo.  Lets say I want to do Kajukenbo, but there're no teachers in my area.  I'd have to fly to another state to train.  So, instead, I buy a bunch of Kaju dvds, and attempt to figure out what to do.  I decide to pack up and move to a state that has Kaju.  I go to the school, confident because I bought the dvd set, only to be told that I suck and I'm doing things wrong.  This is what we're trying to say to you and coffeerox.  




> But the fact here is... That it's not impossible to learn something through self teaching. Just very difficult. As humans we cannot possess the knowledge to make an absolute claim. And even if you had no luck in self training yourself before reaching a school. Doesn't mean it's impossible for everyone.
> I can turn the tables. What if I didn't do as good as I did with my self training?
> I(myself) could still not say it absolutely cannot be done, but have only proven that it's very difficult.


 
How do you know you'll be learning it right?  I could get a cookbook by Emeril Lagasse, but that doesnt mean I'll ever be as good a cook.  



> I still do self training. Sometimes after a day at the dojo. I will watch youtube videos of the same technique I learned. And sometimes it helps me out a lot. Because people learn differently. The way your teacher explains it, might not be as easy for you to grasp as the way someone else might state it. Because people have different worldviews and take in information differently. Or even amongst your senior students trying to help you with a technique. The way they say it might make it more clearer than the way your teacher just said it. You're also correct in the fact that I do not know what Chi Sao is, but I just find it hard to believe it cannot be learned at all(even in a poor way) through a video demonstration.


 
Question for you:  Do you have a real, live teacher you train with?


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 10, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> You're also correct in the fact that I do not know what Chi Sao is, but I just find it hard to believe it cannot be learned at all(even in a poor way) through a video demonstration.


 
Tanaku, please don't be offended, but you can't debate about a subject or topic you know nothing about, such as self teaching Wing Chun. My answer below is why.

Chi sao is a *touch sensitive drill* which helps you develop sensitivity to your opponents energy (touch pressure) directed at you so you can read there physical intention of how or where they will attempt to strike, hit, trap, or in any way control or hold you. You learn from what you *feel* so you can develop the skills to counter or re-direct their energy or intentions towards you without having to see it, or guess at it, just feel it. You can't learn that from a book or video because every encounter (drill) is free flowing and without being pre-arranged. True chi sao is not set or pre-arranged. It is totally different energies from person to person. It is done randomly and with different energies, pressures, intentions, hand positions, postures, etc. You must be able to make contact with them, using your bridge (hands and forearms), to touch them so you can counter them without guessing so you can get it right. A poor way of chi sao just gets you hit or beaten up repeatedly. You are defenseless.

That is why you can't learn Wing Chun or chi sao from a book, video, or teaching yourself. It is a physical skill learned and developed through touch alone. Let me rephrase that, Wing Chun is mainly helping you to develop phyical skills (in this case, self defense) through touch. Can't be done from a book, video, or self teaching. Must be done with the guidance of someone who knows how to do it.


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## matsu (Aug 10, 2010)

*Just keep at it, it does get better. Don't let your eyes fool you. By relying on what you feel, you will be ahead of everyone else in the game. It takes a bit of time to get good at chi sao, don't become disappointed or let it bring you down. The more you do it the better you get. And don't be affraid to ask your sifu questions, cross hands with as many seniors as possible. To be the best you have to train with the best. Good luck.* 

thanks mate.this is what i,m trying to do.

tanaka- again please do not feel we have taken the arguement to you.this is not the case-you have taken a stance on a subject you have no experience in so it is really difficult to get you to understand what we are trying to explain to others with similar views on this thread.
when i said that you cannot learn to drive by video i hoped you would understand,its the doing,the feeling,the reaction aspect that you cannot learn.

i too use youtube or dvds to supplement my classes.they are invaluable, but they will/could never replace touching hands.
matsu


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

I give up.  You guys just don't get it do you?  I keep saying *I AGREE WITH YOU*!!!!  So stop arguing about teacher this and teacher that.  _*WE UNDERSTAND WE NEED A TEACHER TO GUIDE US!*_

However you guys clearly have no experience self-teaching and don't know anything about it.  Don't claim that you do until you learn something complex like computers or even cooking and yes cooking is a complex art.  To me, it sounds like you are just continuing the argument despite both of us saying that we agree with you.  It's not even a valid discussion anymore because you reject everything being told to you.

What are you going to tell me next, that I can't win a national fighting game tournament attended by professionals practicing by myself?


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I give up. You guys just don't get it do you? I keep saying *I AGREE WITH YOU*!!!! So stop arguing about teacher this and teacher that. _*WE UNDERSTAND WE NEED A TEACHER TO GUIDE US!*_




THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW SUPERIOR SELF TRAINING IS AND GO GET A REAL TEACHER!!!!!  STOP COMING UP WITH 1,001 EXCUSES AS TO WHY YOU CAN'T TRAIN RIGHT NOW, WAIT UNTIL YOU GET YOUR *PRIORITIES IN ORDER* AND THEN WORRY ABOUT TRAINING!!!!  THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A WHILE NOW!!!!



> However you guys clearly have no experience self-teaching and don't know anything about it. Don't claim that you do until you learn something complex like computers or even cooking and yes cooking is a complex art. To me, it sounds like you are just continuing the argument despite both of us saying that we agree with you. It's not even a valid discussion anymore because you reject everything being told to you.
> 
> What are you going to tell me next, that I can't win a national fighting game tournament attended by professionals practicing by myself?


 
Umm....did you read my post earlier in this useless thread about how my school handed out study guides, and people were using them to learn the techs from??  I dont think that anyone said that you wont learn anything, however the quality of what you're learning *will either be sub-par or just suck altogether!!!!!*  THAT is the difference.  

You're coming on here, preaching as if you're some master of WC, when in reality, there are probably people here, who've been doing WC longer than you've been alive or pretty close to it.  So, instead of arguing with people, left and right, listen for once, and get a real teacher!!!!


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## WC_lun (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I give up. You guys just don't get it do you? I keep saying *I AGREE WITH YOU*!!!! So stop arguing about teacher this and teacher that. _*WE UNDERSTAND WE NEED A TEACHER TO GUIDE US!*_
> 
> However you guys clearly have no experience self-teaching and don't know anything about it. Don't claim that you do until you learn something complex like computers or even cooking and yes cooking is a complex art. To me, it sounds like you are just continuing the argument despite both of us saying that we agree with you. It's not even a valid discussion anymore because you reject everything being told to you.
> 
> What are you going to tell me next, that I can't win a national fighting game tournament attended by professionals practicing by myself?


 
Actually I've taught myself what I know of computers, cooking, and playing the guitar.  So I've got a bit of experience with self teaching.  You say you agree then continue with stating things to the contrary.

As far as your last statement, strike the word "game" out of it and I would indeed say you could not win. 

Your post make you sound like a teenager.  Is this the case?  If this is the case, there isn't anything wrong with it.  However, your doing the typical teenage thing and not listening to what people with more experience are telling you.

Finally, you have not answered my question in how your solo training is more effective than all the other young men I have seen over two plus decades.  I really am interested in understanding how your experience is so much more valid than thiers.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

> THEN STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW SUPERIOR SELF TRAINING IS AND GO GET A REAL TEACHER!!!!! STOP COMING UP WITH 1,001 EXCUSES AS TO WHY YOU CAN'T TRAIN RIGHT NOW, WAIT UNTIL YOU GET YOUR PRIORITIES IN ORDER AND THEN WORRY ABOUT TRAINING!!!! THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A WHILE NOW!!!!



Uh no ****? I'm not talking about how superior self-training is.  I'm talking about it's process and how it's a skill on it's own.  I'm not even talking about martial arts anymore.  

Listen to yourself, you want to keep saying the same **** *despite everybody being on the same page.*  It's just showing me that you want to keep arguing and keep yelling at me until there's nothing left, and/or me blowing up at you.  Just stfu goddamn.

Another thing I want to get off my chest. It's not even about the topic, that is not what you even want to discuss.  I gave you the dominant position and then what do you do? You go off on me.  I don't even respect you, I don't even care.  I don't listen to a goddamn word you say.



> You say you agree then continue with stating things to the contrary.



I agree, however *I am no longer talking about martial arts*.  Thats the problem that you and MJS won't understand and you guys keep pressing the issue that it's freaking me the hell out right now.



> As far as your last statement, strike the word "game" out of it and I would indeed say you could not win.



Yeah way to twist my comment in your favor right?  That's not even what the **** I'm talking about.  I clearly said game.  Learn to read.


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## wtxs (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Martial arts online learning is not yet at a level where it's entirely viable to do it with just you and a partner, however, I do not believe it's an impossibility.  We just need a guy out there, somewhere, that is able to transmit the entire system in a format that is possible for two practitioners to absorb and practice on their own.



What do you call the GUY you are referring to of having all those qualifications? *A really live teacher*. It is impossible to convey sensitivity, forward pressure, structure, angling/facing, correct timing and other subtle insights via any other medium. Bottom line ... self/video/online learning of martial art is rife with limitations, and will never replace the real thing.:argue:


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Uh no ****? I'm not talking about how superior self-training is. I'm talking about it's process and how it's a skill on it's own. I'm not even talking about martial arts anymore.
> 
> Listen to yourself, you want to keep saying the same **** *despite everybody being on the same page.* It's just showing me that you want to keep arguing and keep yelling at me until there's nothing left, and/or me blowing up at you. Just stfu goddamn.
> 
> ...


 
Chill out little man!  Oh, and perhaps this will interest you.  

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1304996&postcount=70

Says the self taught WC master.  You jump around from one thing to the next.  1 min. you're talking about your sad situation, the next you're talking about self training, then you admit that it isn't good....you're all over the board.  

Maybe instead of looking for sympathy, you'll chill out, learn to be humble, and listen to what the more experienced are telling you.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

MJS said:


> snip



I've said everything that you needed to understand, but you don't listen AT ALL.  You want to argue with me, and that is all you want to do.  I'm experienced in online communities enough to know what it is.  Look at your above post, all you are doing is manipulating my words in an attempt to show that I am flip flopping around when I know myself that is not the case, and that is not the intent.

edit:  I still stand by what I said.  I can only go off of information that is available to me and if that information is incomplete, of course I'm going to run into a wall somewhere.  Doesn't take away from my ability.  I'm not saying it's not good.  Not at all.  Way to twist my words jerk.  I'm saying it's not *entirely* viable because of completeness of information.  We need someone to be able to properly lay it out in both written and demonstrate on video as well as orally delivering the concepts.  It's possible because I've been able to absorb what's out there already.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

Here is my final stance on this, because I'm not allowing you to argue with me anymore.

1. Everyone needs a teacher.  Nobody is a unique little snowflake that you don't.  That is why I created the first controversial thread that led us to all this mess.  Because I needed  live instruction as well as training partners.  

2. Self training is not impossible.  Doesn't matter what you say.  It's not.  I taught myself advanced computers and cooking (i'm not talking about basic stuff like you people *claim* to have self-taught).  Am I *really* teaching myself? Not at all, I am still receiving instruction, just in a different way.  As long as I'm not an idiot and I actually experiment and practice, you WILL get results.  Refining what you learned, cross-reference and more practice will lead to better skill, this goes for anything that you do.

3. Reason why one is able to train themselves is because of the information from others.  Therefore the best collection of information and the best tutorials will lead to better training.  I'm not necessarily talking just about martial arts but across many different areas.  Believe it or not, but it is difficult to learn how to play World of Warcraft, Starcraft or Street Fighter by yourself.  However, you CAN train yourself to a certain standard so that you can take yourself to the next level when you are competent enough to be able to fight a live opponent (I'm still referring to the games).

We have guys from Korea that can do 300 actions per minute on Starcraft.  Can you even comprehend what the hell that means or how you even learn to do these things?  They wouldn't be able to teach you how to do it, they can only give you the concept and you have to learn how to do it yourself.  There is a level of self-sufficiency that I believe is lost to us in this generation. 

4. Level of self-training depends on the person.  You can't relate somebody else's self-training experience to somebody else's self-training experience.  It's a personal experience so you have to consider the individual.  You cannot consider the individual unless you've met and trained with them.

I need to mention Rachael Ray.  She is epitome of self-training.  Here is a quote by her:


> "I have no formal anything. I'm completely unqualified for any job I've ever had."



Yet her cooking and her success speaks for itself.  She went on Iron Chef America to beat Giada AND Bobby Flay.

Keep in mind that 2,3 and 4 are about self-training in general, not just martial arts but anything that can develop skill.


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## jks9199 (Aug 10, 2010)

Ladies and Gentlemen,

You may consider this an official warning.

Stop the attacks.  Keep the conversations polite and respectful.  Don't go chasing each other thread to thread.  If you can't do this, you can expect the moderation team to take action.

jks9199
Super Moderator


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 10, 2010)

Finally, are we done yet?  Sheesh!  Coffeerox, you sure are a long winded Mofo.  Let's go out and get a cup of coffee.  I'll buy, but none of that Starbucks crap, okay?


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I've said everything that you needed to understand, but you don't listen AT ALL. You want to argue with me, and that is all you want to do. I'm experienced in online communities enough to know what it is. Look at your above post, all you are doing is manipulating my words in an attempt to show that I am flip flopping around when I know myself that is not the case, and that is not the intent.


 
Actually, we are listening, and reading.  The proof is in the pudding dude.  I'm not manipulating anything, I'm simply pointing out a) the flaws in your posts, and b) the fact that one minute you're talking about how you're giving up on WC because there're no schools, then you talk about online teaching, then you go here, then there.  

As for the link I posted....those are YOUR words dude, not mine.  Not sure how one can be great when they're self taught.  Sub-par, yes, great, no.



> edit: I still stand by what I said. I can only go off of information that is available to me and if that information is incomplete, of course I'm going to run into a wall somewhere. Doesn't take away from my ability. I'm not saying it's not good. Not at all. Way to twist my words jerk. I'm saying it's not *entirely* viable because of completeness of information. We need someone to be able to properly lay it out in both written and demonstrate on video as well as orally delivering the concepts. It's possible because I've been able to absorb what's out there already.


 
So in a nutshell, you're willing to be sub-par, willing to go thru a bunch of material, only to be told later on that stuff is wrong, and then ya gotta go back and re-learn it again.  Again, I never said you couldn't learn via video, only that you will not be on the same level as someone who trains with a teacher. What you fail to see, is that its impossible for someone to lay it out like you want to see it, on video.  As for absorbing stuff....sure, you'll absorb stuff but it'll be incorrect.  If thats what you want, knock your socks off.  Again, instead of wasting time and money that you claim is tight, on video classes, get your *** to a live teacher.  But anytime thats suggested to you, you come up with 1,001 reasons why you cant do this or that.


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Here is my final stance on this, because I'm not allowing you to argue with me anymore.


 
Umm...ok.



> 1. Everyone needs a teacher. Nobody is a unique little snowflake that you don't. That is why I created the first controversial thread that led us to all this mess. Because I needed live instruction as well as training partners.


 
So why dont you go out and get one?



> 2. Self training is not impossible. Doesn't matter what you say. It's not. I taught myself advanced computers and cooking (i'm not talking about basic stuff like you people *claim* to have self-taught). Am I *really* teaching myself? Not at all, I am still receiving instruction, just in a different way. As long as I'm not an idiot and I actually experiment and practice, you WILL get results. Refining what you learned, cross-reference and more practice will lead to better skill, this goes for anything that you do.


 
I assume you're reading what I'm saying here....again, never said it wasn't possible, just that it'll be subpar.  Ive never done TKD, but after 20+yrs of training under a teacher, I could probably take a TKD video and mimick a form, however, were I to go to a TKD school, the teacher would probably have to make corrections.  Would you go to a self taught doctor and have him perform surgery on you?



> 3. Reason why one is able to train themselves is because of the information from others. Therefore the best collection of information and the best tutorials will lead to better training. I'm not necessarily talking just about martial arts but across many different areas. Believe it or not, but it is difficult to learn how to play World of Warcraft, Starcraft or Street Fighter by yourself. However, you CAN train yourself to a certain standard so that you can take yourself to the next level when you are competent enough to be able to fight a live opponent (I'm still referring to the games).


 
So, am I reading this right...you're comparing real life fights to video games?  



> We have guys from Korea that can do 300 actions per minute on Starcraft. Can you even comprehend what the hell that means or how you even learn to do these things? They wouldn't be able to teach you how to do it, they can only give you the concept and you have to learn how to do it yourself. There is a level of self-sufficiency that I believe is lost to us in this generation.


 
No, sorry, I dont spend my time playing video games, I work a full time, 40+hr a week job and train with my teachers.  

4. Level of self-training depends on the person. You can't relate somebody else's self-training experience to somebody else's self-training experience. It's a personal experience so you have to consider the individual. You cannot consider the individual unless you've met and trained with them.



> I need to mention Rachael Ray. She is epitome of self-training. Here is a quote by her:
> 
> 
> Yet her cooking and her success speaks for itself. She went on Iron Chef America to beat Giada AND Bobby Flay.
> ...


 
And if you look further at that wiki article, from which you pulled that quote, you'll also see things that she isn't good at.  Additionally, if you look at her partner, you'll see that his credentials are much more impressive than hers, so thats really a poor example, as it was not her, solely, that won.  

But, anyways....good luck with the video stuff.  Just imagine how much better you'd be, if you invested all that time and money into a live teacher.


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## coffeerox (Aug 10, 2010)

> I assume you're reading what I'm saying here....again


Yeah you assume. Epic fail.



> So, am I reading this right...you're comparing real life fights to video games?


Where's the comparison at? You fail at reading.



> No, sorry, I dont spend my time playing video games, I work a full time, 40+hr a week job and train with my teachers.


It doesn't matter if you don't play.  What I said relates to how you gain skill at something and you completely missed it.  What if I replaced video games with a sports analogy?  You would still say you don't play sports and work 40hrs a week and train with your teachers.  That's a cop out meaning you don't understand what I said.



> And if you look further at that wiki article, from which you pulled that  quote, you'll also see things that she isn't good at.  Additionally, if  you look at her partner, you'll see that his credentials are much more  impressive than hers, so thats really a poor example, as it was not her,  solely, that won.


Listen to yourself.  Rachael Ray is widely respected enough to have 3+ shows, +cookware line, books etc and all you're doing is dismissing her just for the fact that *I* used her as an example of a successful self-trainer.  Do you see any other self-trained cooks on Iron Chef America? Or have all these other things which considered is a success? You're pathetic.  You'd never beat me in an argument.

It's quite clear now that you don't understand the written word, so why don't you contact me on Skype, username coffeerox.  Feel free to add me and initiate a voice call anytime.


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## WC_lun (Aug 10, 2010)

There are things you can learn very well without an actual instructor.  Those things do not require constant minute adjustments made through visual and tactile input.  Unfortunately for people who try to learn a fighting art without an instructor, they cannot be learned in this manner.  This is similiar to surgery or driving a car.  You could read about these experiences, or even watch them performed on video.  However, to actually perform them, you need supervision and instruction that is much more personal and you must actually experience the real thing.  In my opinion, making an anology of learning martial arts even to a low level, especially one as complex a one as Wing Chun to video games or cooking shows an ignorance of what it means to learn martial arts.  That is fine because every one of us started out there.  The advice you have been getting is not to make you feel bad or question your intelligence.  It is so that you do not stay at that stage of unawareness any longer than you have to.

As far as your cursing and calling people names because you have had your feelings hurt or don't agree with what is being said is petty and uncalled for.  For the most part you have been given sound advice as if you were an adult seeking information.  Perhaps it is time to start posting as if you were a mature adult.  If you aren't a mature adult then at least try.


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## coffeerox (Aug 11, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> Unfortunately for people who try to learn a fighting art without an instructor, they cannot be learned in this manner.



Refer to my earlier post #1.  Learn to read the damn message. 



> In my opinion, making an anology of learning martial arts even to a low level, especially one as complex a one as Wing Chun to video games or cooking shows an ignorance of what it means to learn martial arts.


I didn't make an analogy of learning MA to video games or cooking.  I was talking about skill in general.

Have you even completed reading at the Freshman level?  Now I can see why people can't even learn MA from instructional videos and books.  You can't read and you have no comprehension.  You're stupid.  That is my conclusion.



> For the most part you have been given sound advice as if you were an adult seeking information.


Don't try to take the goddamn high road.  You know damn well that I've been constantly hounded and attacked in this thread.  You're contributing to it right now.  What does it matter to you? It's my life.  You just want to talk **** b/c you say something other people agree with (even me).  That's easy.  I can do that too!

But yet you have no idea what *I* am talking about, so you dismiss it and talk **** as if I did not agree with you.  I know how it goes on forums.  You will do anything to take the dominant position and now I'm not letting you have it.  You can keep taking shots but they won't work.



> The advice you have been getting is not to make you feel bad or  question your intelligence.  It is so that you do not stay at that stage  of unawareness any longer than you have to.



You're not even qualified to give advice.   Who are you to be saying all these things?  I never really questioned anybody's advice really (yes, even your dumb ***) however people see my points as 'weak' and you just want to go to town on me.  F*** that.  F*** you and whatever you rode in on.  You can't even read any of my posts and my logic is so obviously higher than yours that you don't even understand wtf I'm trying to tell you.


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## IrishMonk (Aug 11, 2010)

:deadhorse


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## coffeerox (Aug 11, 2010)

IrishMonk said:


> :deadhorse


That's exactly what this is.  What they don't realize is that I've dropped the topic long ago.  What's after that, well that's up to them to figure out LOLOL

Oh yeah, I'm doing Kenpo X from the P90X DVD.  What are you guys gonna do now, criticize me for using it? LOL bring it on


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 11, 2010)

Coffee, The WT lat sau program really isn't that easy to teach or learn, lol.
It looks like it should be, but I still have to force my sihings to lock out their arms and various other aspects, theres always minor corrections to be made.
You won't catch it in video either I'm afraid, because good luck knowing what to look for, even when you know, and it's in front of your face, if you can't feel it, and if the person your practicing with can't feel it, and than exploit your weaknesses, than yeah.. not much progress to be made..


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Yeah you assume. Epic fail.


 
Speaking of fails, how's that video training going? 



> Where's the comparison at? You fail at reading.


 
YOU are the one who talks about video games, not me.  



> It doesn't matter if you don't play. What I said relates to how you gain skill at something and you completely missed it. What if I replaced video games with a sports analogy? You would still say you don't play sports and work 40hrs a week and train with your teachers. That's a cop out meaning you don't understand what I said.


 
You want to gain a skill, correct?  If someone wants to get better at something, its going to require that they do something, CORRECTLY, over and over and over.  If you're doing something wrong, to begin with, no matter how many times you do it, it'll still be wrong.  



> Listen to yourself. Rachael Ray is widely respected enough to have 3+ shows, +cookware line, books etc and all you're doing is dismissing her just for the fact that *I* used her as an example of a successful self-trainer. Do you see any other self-trained cooks on Iron Chef America? Or have all these other things which considered is a success? You're pathetic. You'd never beat me in an argument.


 
Actually, I think you're wrong, as you can't argue very well, without getting frustrated as hell.  You said it yourself in some other posts.   You're line of thinking is, "Well, if someone else can do it, so can I!"  And that is where you fail.  I train BJJ, but no matter how long I train a week, I'll never be as good as Rickson.  Just because he's good, doesnt mean everyone else will be on his level.  Same with video training vs. real training....no matter how many video lessons someone takes, they'll never be as good as someone who trains with a real teacher.  And speaking of pathetic.....well, I wont ask those questions of you. 



> It's quite clear now that you don't understand the written word, so why don't you contact me on Skype, username coffeerox. Feel free to add me and initiate a voice call anytime.


 
I understand the written word quite well.  What you fail to see, and you show it thru your never ending frustration, is that when things aren't going  your way, you get very upset.


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Refer to my earlier post #1. Learn to read the damn message.
> 
> I didn't make an analogy of learning MA to video games or cooking. I was talking about skill in general.
> 
> ...


 
See, the problem here coffee, is that you let your frustration show loud and clear.  I mean, look at this post alone.  

Maybe you should chill out a little before you get yourself in trouble again.


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## coffeerox (Aug 11, 2010)

> In my opinion, making an anology of learning martial arts even to a low  level, especially one as complex a one as Wing Chun to video games or  cooking shows an ignorance of what it means to learn martial arts.


**** it, I'm not gonna stop.

Who the **** are you to say that video games are not as complex?  Who the hell are you to say that it's ignorant to compare video games to MA?  

Have you won a national tournament before? Have you cooked for a major restaurant as the head chef and nationally acclaimed for your work?  I'm pretty damn sure you haven't, so stfu.

In fact, it's pretty damn ignorant of you to dismiss other areas of expertise that are respected by many people and takes a lifetime to master.  Starcraft itself is a game which uses the same motto as WC "easy to learn, but difficult to master".  Who the **** are you to tell me it's not as complex?

You don't know anything about being sponsored by a corporation, being paid 100's of thousands of dollars to play and expected to come out on top.  What do you know about 300 actions per minute? NOTHING.

You don't know anything about undertaking the massive journey to master either video game competition or cooking and it's not that dissimilar to taking the journey to mastering a martial art.  It takes the same dedication, practice, interaction with peers, study as martial arts.  The only difference is what you are doing.

Take Street Fighter for instance.  Do you have any IDEA, any iota what you need to be able to react properly to a situation WITHOUT THINKING.  Being able to perform commands with pinpoint accuracy, 100%, every time, against a fighting opponent who will try to stop you the entire time?  On top of that, you need to be able to judge distance and use attacks which leave you safe, but also be aggressive enough to do damage which will include mind-games, not that different from boxing feints/tricks, etc.

It's not as simple as picking up the controller smart guy.  Can you tell me what frame data is for? Or what a frame trap is?  Of course you can't.  You can't blindly assume that b/c it's a video game, you can pick it up in a day or two, master it and tell me you're going to whoop my ***.

In the process of telling me that I'm ignorant, I show that you are the one that is in fact, ignorant.


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## coffeerox (Aug 11, 2010)

> And that is where you fail.  I train BJJ, but no matter how long I  train a week, I'll never be as good as Rickson.  Just because he's good,  doesnt mean everyone else will be on his level.


Of course not.  Because you're too busy thinking in a straight line and don't have an open mind.  You subscribe to the belief that you'll never be as good as him, therefore why try?  You're just gonna do what you do, being what you'll always be.  Average.

I do not subscribe to the belief that "If they can do it, I can do it too" DEFINITELY NOT.  I know I've tried a lot of things where I couldn't grasp the concept and I was just terrible at.  I accept those things.

The difference between you and I, is that I don't place any barriers in what I do.  The sky's the limit if I put the time, and if I have the talent for it.  That's not to say, you go around saying you can beat anybody or are better than everybody.  Most definitely not.  I've gone through a period of my life when I did that in video game competition, not being on their level, get destroyed because they knew wtf they were doing.  I learned my lesson.

You have to think that there's always something you can improve, something to perfect,  there's always a new idea out there waiting for you to try it out and seeing what happens as a result.  Pushing yourself to become better and better and better. 

One day, you start to realize that your personal quest has made you one of the top people.  It's not because you compare yourself to the top people, I can attest from personal experience, if you do that, you will NEVER reach the level they are at.  The only thing stopping you from being better than Rickson is you.  Your OWN personal barriers.  Remove those barriers, gain more experience, be hungry for competition, learn from your mistakes and keep on going.  You may, or may not ever beat Rickson, but if you train well, no one else can beat you and if they did, they'd have to fight all they have to do it.

Rickson did not get the way that he is by just training.  The Gracie family holds a lot of values, discipline, mindsets that dwarfs anything that you thought possible.  They did not get this way by saying, hey, we may never be as good as <so and so>.  There's more to it than just training.  That's only one part of it.  I gave you the other part but I believe that it's beyond your comprehension at this point.

edit:  I notice you say "no matter how long"  this is wrong.  Just because you have time does not mean you can become better than somebody.  Time is certainly a factor, but quality of training within that time frame that you have is more important.


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## Boozmork (Aug 11, 2010)

This is surely going to be locked up soon. It used to be kind of funny but now it's just making me feel sad.
I said on page two that this would go nowhere and it's obvious that we have about the same chance as agreeing on which religion (if any) is correct. There's no right and wrong answer, just subjective opinion, we don't have to agree with self training and calling it Wing Chun (personally I don't) but I will use my Wing Chun to protect anyones right to improve themselves. 

Lets just get past this and talk about something else as a community rather than be at each other throats all the time.


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Of course not. Because you're too busy thinking in a straight line and don't have an open mind. You subscribe to the belief that you'll never be as good as him, therefore why try? You're just gonna do what you do, being what you'll always be. Average.
> 
> I do not subscribe to the belief that "If they can do it, I can do it too" DEFINITELY NOT. I know I've tried a lot of things where I couldn't grasp the concept and I was just terrible at. I accept those things.
> 
> ...


 
Well, thanks coffee, for telling me how I train.  I've been training for over 20yrs, with a real live teacher, so I really dont need to be told, from a dvd student, how to train.  Seems like you missed my point here.  We could wish that we were as good as someone else, we could train hard every day, but the fact remains, that no matter how hard we do train, or what goals we set our mind to, fact remains, we may never be that good.  Even other Gracie members have said that Rickson is beyond amazing.  

I train hard, in the dojo, with my teachers and training partners.  But I dont kid myself either.  Just because I train, doesnt make me a superman.  Apparently you seem to think that it will.  Some things, no matter how hard we try, we may never achieve, and that is reality.


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2010)

Boozmork said:


> This is surely going to be locked up soon. It used to be kind of funny but now it's just making me feel sad.
> I said on page two that this would go nowhere and it's obvious that we have about the same chance as agreeing on which religion (if any) is correct. There's no right and wrong answer, just subjective opinion, we don't have to agree with self training and calling it Wing Chun (personally I don't) but I will use my Wing Chun to protect anyones right to improve themselves.
> 
> Lets just get past this and talk about something else as a community rather than be at each other throats all the time.


 
Yup, just like that other WC that was locked up.  Some people, instead of looking at how they post, misunderstand whats said, take offense, and go on the defensive.  

If someone wants to learn via another source other than a real teacher, fine.  As long as they understand they'll be sub-par.  Never said it was impossible to pick anything up.  Whether or not its being done right is the real question.


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## jks9199 (Aug 11, 2010)

_*Thread locked pending staff review.

-jks9199
-Super Moderator
*_


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