# defence against dogs........



## Blooming Lotus (Nov 15, 2004)

Have heard an argument in recent months on dog defence tactics, and what to do when being attacked by one.  No one really came up with any solid and from much experience so when i had the opportunity with a master trainer and highly reputed secuirty expert, I ran it by himself.  

He seems to think that by getting the dog to bite some thing else ( like a stick or possibley something wider, his mouth is committed and disengaged from further attack, leaving you free to execute a mabu to gongbu style hand twist circle breaking rovers neck.  

I've also heard that by pulling its 2 front legs apart , you cause its heart to burst.

He has used this before himself I think and it sounds like a good method.  You do what you must but does any one have anything where you wouldn't need to kill it???

BL

Btw : sounds rediculous, but where is a dog most vulnerable to cavity strikes???  .....................


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## MA-Caver (Nov 15, 2004)

Out of many discussions... (this is what search is for... :asian: )

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10716&highlight=defense+dogs

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13043&highlight=defense+dogs

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2464&highlight=defense+dogs


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## DoxN4cer (Nov 16, 2004)

You could just shoot the damn thing.  If that isn't a viable option for you OC (pepper spray) works very well on dogs.  Give 'em a nose full of OC and you won't have a problem with that dog again.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 16, 2004)

how many ppl realistically carry either though??


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## someguy (Nov 16, 2004)

Big heavy sharp objects are nice.
Heck I always carry one with me.  It's my Claymore +5.  Wait that's not reality.  Wait I haven't even played a game with a claymore in it for a while.  
I should go do that now.


			
				blooming lotus said:
			
		

> I've also heard that by pulling its 2 front legs apart , you cause its heart to burst.


  Sounds abit urban legendish to me.  I know nothing about dogs though but could you show me some reliable source about this.  Nothing personal just seems strange.


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## Shu2jack (Nov 16, 2004)

Depends on the size of the dog, but a swift front kick to the jaw/nose of a dog threatening you should do the trick.

If the dog is biting you, use a free hand to gouge it's eyes, rip it's ear, or any of the previous things mentioned.

If you really think about it, what does a dog have that humans don't? Most people who would fight dirty and dish it out to a human is afraid of a dog. We outweigh most dogs, we are physically bigger than most dogs, dogs don't have free hands to counter strikes, etc.

I personally feel the biggest reason people are afraid of dogs is because of just some natural fear- it is an animal with sharp teeth. I think if people were as ruthless fighting a dog as they would be fighting a human, we should come out on top.


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 16, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Have heard an argument in recent months on dog defence tactics, and what to do when being attacked by one. No one really came up with any solid and from much experience so when i had the opportunity with a master trainer and highly reputed secuirty expert, I ran it by himself.
> 
> He seems to think that by getting the dog to bite some thing else ( like a stick or possibley something wider, his mouth is committed and disengaged from further attack, leaving you free to execute a mabu to gongbu style hand twist circle breaking rovers neck.
> 
> ...


Ok - I learned from the guy who own's the only grandfathered in kennel near downtown San Diego. He rescued and trained Abused dogs for night security use and depends on breed build training (the Dog basicly) but 1 Techniqie I will give free.
Man with a club beats a dog. Sad but true and more than likely dog knows it.

2) Dog VS Pack (Spot Alpha)
3) Most trained dogs will cease attacks if you submit and just Bark.

Extra's - pressure points and Break points exist. see Canine Anatomy but he only has one weapon and head strikes kill/stun just use a weapon if you can or take a off hand bite.
hammerblow to skull vs a slap on the nose with a newpapper depends.
Use a stick thats how people beat animals and I don't want your PETA flames.


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## still learning (Nov 16, 2004)

Hello, Thanks for the info" MR. MACAVER" (near the top of this page).  I saw the www.martial sites. Great information from the feedbacks. After reading them all, It gives you some things you can do. There is so many breds,size, and each dog is like a individual. Each must be handle OJT (on the job) each attack may be different each time. Thank-you for sharing that! " Come on all you dogs"...I am ready..??? Nope! ....Aloha


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Have heard an argument in recent months on dog defence tactics, and what to do when being attacked by one.  No one really came up with any solid and from much experience so when i had the opportunity with a master trainer and highly reputed secuirty expert, I ran it by himself.



Where were the discussions? Other boards or magazines?

So, you talked to one animal trainer and security expert. Does this person have a name or a company we could talk to for our own knowledge?



			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> He seems to think that by getting the dog to bite some thing else ( like a stick or possibley something wider, his mouth is committed and disengaged from further attack, leaving you free to execute a mabu to gongbu style hand twist circle breaking rovers neck.



As to biting something else, this might work with some, yet, the police dogs I have had the priviledge to know, follow commands and know where to bite. So, I am assuming you are talking about an untrained dog?

As to breaking an animals neck, I have picked up medium sized dogs playing tug-of-war and shaking them and twisting them including circles, and Ihave never broken a neck. I could see small dogs though. I do see one could do a neck break, yet it would require good skill and good techniques.



			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> I've also heard that by pulling its 2 front legs apart , you cause its heart to burst.



This, I have a real hard time believing, do you have reference manual I can go look up for this. I have seen great danes legs split and they fall on their chest. I have seen other danes learn how to drop under a kick and attack the base leg to knowck the person down. Hence my comment above, about trained versus untrained.



			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> He has used this before himself I think and it sounds like a good method.  You do what you must but does any one have anything where you wouldn't need to kill it???
> 
> BL



For dog who nibble, I have used the shoove the fingers or hand down the throat to induce the gag reflex. To always available though, so I also have played and done the grab the bottom or top jaw, and pinch. they feel like they have been bit back. You can still get damage done to you. Yet, when you hand is in the dogs mouth, damage is most likely unavoidable.



			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Btw : sounds rediculous, but where is a dog most vulnerable to cavity strikes???  .....................



Not sure, could you elaborate?


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## Adept (Nov 16, 2004)

My family and myself have been breeding and training dogs for several generations. You will not kill a dog by pulling its legs apart, you will just break its legs. Same result, the dog is out of action, but it will bark and yelp which isnt good if you are trying to be sneaky.

 A dog will usually lunge at you, and usually in an easy to read manner. If you have a decent club or stick, just give it an almighty whack on the side of the head. If not, try like hell to get behind it. Dogs cannot defend their backs, and if you can get your arms around its neck, you can choke the bugger out without a hassle. The risky part is deflecting the lunge. I wouldnt recommend trying to punch it on the nose or kick it in the face, because if you miss or if you fail to stop it, you can be in some very serious trouble. Even from the front, you can apply a guillotine (sp?) style choke if you keep the head under control. 

 I have never tried this against aggresive dogs, but if you grad the bottom jaw of a dog they go into retreat mode, and the last thing they do is bite. Like I say, I've only tried this on playful dogs, or ones that needed a tablet of some kind, or had something stuck in the back of their mouth, but they have never bitten. Something to perhaps bear in mind as a last resort.


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## Vadim (Nov 17, 2004)

If you attempt to fight a well trained attack dog the outcome is not going to be very favorable for you. The amount of bite pressure a dog can exert on human bone and flesh is immense. You will most likely have broken bones and such. As with any situation if you can retreat safely follow that course of action.

    If the dog attcks you it may help to play "dead". Attacking the dog further will only serve to infuriate it even more. There are people out there in some cities that train there dog to attack rapidly and without fear. Take the pitbull an excellent dog who would make a great pet if raised in the proper environment. But if a disreputable person trains a pitbull it can be a vicious killer. These dog fight trainers will actually spray OC at these dogs to attempt to desensitize them from the effects and show these dogs that they can still attack. In NYC drug dealers will have for example a rottweiler who is attack trained with its voicebox removed. When officers enter a drug house they wont hear the dog barking only the pitter patter of the paws on the floor. You may not be able to get a shot off if you dont see or hear the attack coming.

    The main point is be safe! Use common sense and try not to approach stray dogs or animals you are not familiar with. I think that most dogs dont go out there looking to bite humans. It is the dog that is aggressively trained in a negative manner and fear biters that will attack. Look at the dog and see how it is acting. If its tail is raised up back off slowly and call the dog catcher or the local humane society. Or if the dog has its tail between its legs it is scared. Just do a little research and become familiar with the behavior patterns of dogs. Dogs dont lie and by their behavior you should be able to tell their disposition. I feel that there are no natural bad dogs just some bad people making good dogs bad.

-Vadim


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 18, 2004)

Absolute, pure horse dooky. Have (ridiculously) had at it with a variety of dawgs in a line of part time work I did in my undergrad days. Explode their heart? Bologne. Unfavorable outcomes? If you can find your skills with your mind, and your nuts with either hand, you'll be fine.

The only time you're in trouble with a dog is if you're mentally off your game. From Dobie's to American Bulldogs with big heads and muscally bodies attached to their heads, your natural weapons from karate will serve you well. Gross motor patterns (none of that "grabbing the jaw and left earlobe" crap)...blast him in the middle of his charge with a very hard front snap kick to jaw, throat, chest, head, mouth, etc (aim at the dog, and hit him), then follow with a series of raining downward punches to whatever presents. If he latches on to one of your hands, keep punchnig him maniacally with the other in the head, muzzle, soft tissues of the neck, etc. 

If they jump up to lunge at you, thrust kick them in the belly. Most big, mean nasty guard dogs fold when faced with a bigger, meaner, nastier dog. You just have to make sure that dog is you. Exhibit dominance by grimacing; kiai-ing louly and fiercely with each blow, and never back up. Bum rush the dog as soon as you even suspect it's on, and give it cause to believe you are the GOD of the alpha hounds. It doesn't know better unless you communicate otherwise with your actions.

I now leap with seething anger and rage at dogs in the middle of dominance fighting. G-friend (well, ex now) was/is a dog trainer, and it's not uncommon in the first few days of class to have idiot owners who've failed to establish dominance with their mutts, also fail to control their aggression. Broke one up the other day between a bull mastiff and an akita (about the largest dogs you can get, and as far as I'm concerned, the Akita is one of the least sociable you can get). Everyone else split the instant they started fighting. I leapt at them hollering at the top of my lungs that they weren't going to pull that crap on my shift, snap punched one and foot-swept the front legs of the other at the same time, before latching on to them and shoving their heads to the ground via a well-placed grip on the tops of their necks just behind the skull. Both of them, large scary dogs, instantly got that "oh, no" look in their eyes and went soft. Akita attempted a trial pull, so I put my face right in his and growled my most menacing grunt, nose to nose. The kid peed from fear.

Dogs are easy. Blast them. They also respond to grappling. Nothing fancy; just throw one in a headlock, controlling its lateral movement (searching for something to bite on to), and hang on until it quits squirming. It will try harder in predictable increments. First, a bit of increased energy as it still thinks its fighting. Harder as it starts to sweat for its life; you hang on, it gets the message, and eventually quits strugling, realizing it's been bested. Nothing more than a tight headlock. Keep in mind controlling their initial escape response, which is to move rearwards with all their might. You can check that by picking them up, body slammnig them down (all in the headlock), and laying on them so they don't go anywhere/get footing.

The rest is dramatic silliness.

Dave


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 18, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Big heavy sharp objects are nice.
> Heck I always carry one with me. It's my Claymore +5. Wait that's not reality. Wait I haven't even played a game with a claymore in it for a while.
> I should go do that now.
> Sounds abit urban legendish to me. I know nothing about dogs though but could you show me some reliable source about this. Nothing personal just seems strange.


http://anatomical.com/product.asp?pn=1587795078 will this + logic do??? Remember I heard this from a dog handler with 20 yrs security experience.

btw : promised the mods I would argue so that's all you get.  please direct any further queries to google or kazzar.......  thank you 

( Ps: any one for egg shell shards in your feet???)


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 18, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Where were the discussions? Other boards or magazines?
> 
> So, you talked to one animal trainer and security expert. Does this person have a name or a company we could talk to for our own knowledge?
> 
> ...


yes.  the security school is Corporate security training at www.training-1.com

and the instructors are Shane Gordon and Darren someone

cheers

BL


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## An Eternal Student (Nov 18, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Absolute, pure horse dooky....
> ...... other in the head, muzzle, soft tissues of the neck, etc..... The kid peed from fear.
> ...... You can check that by picking them up, body slammnig them down (all in the headlock), and laying on them so they don't go anywhere/get footing.
> 
> ...



Dude, as well as being some seriously good advice that's one of the funniest things Ive ever read.You should write this stuff professionaly.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 18, 2004)

I find Korean arts better suited for defense against dogs.....mainly because Koreans eat dog.  :ultracool


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## An Eternal Student (Nov 18, 2004)

Would'nt that make them more suitable for attacking them :ultracool


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## *sic (Nov 18, 2004)

haha from Adepts post about choking out a dog, classic.


that would feel so strange, anyways dogs are bad news to come up against, some of them are damn quick, hunting dogs are insane to deal with, i would not like to be the one on the teeth end of one.


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## someguy (Nov 18, 2004)

Sorry but I still don't see how pulling a dogs legs front legs will effect the heart in such a way to make it bust.  Perhaps my logic is flawed but I just don't see how it works.  Perhaps some one could explain ho wit would work to me.  
Dunno but maybe I'm just understanding what is being said wrong.


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## Adept (Nov 18, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Sorry but I still don't see how pulling a dogs legs front legs will effect the heart in such a way to make it bust.


 It wont. The dogs knees will snap before the rib cage is affected.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 19, 2004)

really Adept???  Thanks for clarifying that  

btw : did I mention he supervised the Sydney olympic security crew???  

Don't worry.  I'll take your word for it. 

BL


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## Sin (Nov 19, 2004)

Just give Rover a swift kick to the head and it should run away.  Or yelling at it will belittle the dog and it will stick its tail between it legs and walk away.  Only kill it if you have to.  Rememmber a dog is still a living creature and it has a soul.



Sorry I am just a dog lover.....I would post a pic of my Tiger (Dog) but I do not have the powers to do it.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 25, 2004)

and wouldn't it be nice if that worked in reality....................  I only have 2 feet and I think I'd prefer to keep them thx 

BL


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## MA-Caver (Nov 25, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> Just give Rover a swift kick to the head and it should run away.  Or yelling at it will belittle the dog and it will stick its tail between it legs and walk away.  Only kill it if you have to.  Rememmber a dog is still a living creature and it has a soul.
> Sorry I am just a dog lover.....I would post a pic of my Tiger (Dog) but I do not have the powers to do it.


I wouldn't go as far as to say an animal has a soul... they are intuitive and intelligent and have capability to show affection to humans and other species...some of them do anyway...ever tried cuddling with a hungry shark or alligator? 
But a soul... the reasoning behind our motivations and emotions... uhh, no.
But that's just IMO


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 25, 2004)

Sorry MC, but I'm agreeing with Sin on that one.  Doesn't change the fact that if it came down to rovers life or mine......  you do what you must.



Blooming Lotus


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## lonecoyote (Dec 1, 2004)

Dogs have traveled with men for thousands of years now, and they know to how to read us and our body language sometimes better than we know ourselves. I think because of our two species mutual history together a few certain things people can do will always give man the upper hand.  The first, which I just mentioned was body language. Dogs can sense assertiveness and confidence in a way we can't always do.  The second thing is to use that which makes us the baddest animal on earth: the opposable thumb. Fill your hand. Both are okay alone, but combine the two. The baddest meanest dog is going to change his attitude when you grab that golf club, bat or favorite whuppin stick and head towards it with the confidence and intention of sending him to the landfill. If it comes down to it, like 5hand swords said, man with club beats dog. When man and dog first became fellow travelers, when man roamed the plains hunting and gathering, you can bet that dog learned pretty quick that when man grabbed an implement and took on a certain attitude it meant he was getting ready to kill something, and it still freaks them out. Same with throwing projectiles at them.  That was how we hunted and killed and ate, and sometimes what we hunted and killed and ate was dog. I love dogs too. And I think they have souls too.


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## KenpoTess (Dec 1, 2004)

Very good post and Great point Lonecoyote 

~Tess


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## MA-Caver (Dec 1, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Dogs have traveled with men for thousands of years now, and they know to how to read us and our body language sometimes better than we know ourselves. I think because of our two species mutual history together a few certain things people can do will always give man the upper hand.  The first, which I just mentioned was body language. Dogs can sense assertiveness and confidence in a way we can't always do.  The second thing is to use that which makes us the baddest animal on earth: the opposable thumb. Fill your hand. Both are okay alone, but combine the two. The baddest meanest dog is going to change his attitude when you grab that golf club, bat or favorite whuppin stick and head towards it with the confidence and intention of sending him to the landfill. If it comes down to it, like 5hand swords said, man with club beats dog. When man and dog first became fellow travelers, when man roamed the plains hunting and gathering, you can bet that dog learned pretty quick that when man grabbed an implement and took on a certain attitude it meant he was getting ready to kill something, and it still freaks them out. Same with throwing projectiles at them.  That was how we hunted and killed and ate, and sometimes what we hunted and killed and ate was dog. I love dogs too. And I think they have souls too.


While this is true to an extent, I've personally seen dogs with a total "no-fear" of man even if he has a gun (and the dog that knows what a gun is and can do to it) or a baton or a big stick or whatever. Dogs can be trained to attack regardless of the consenquences to itself. Severely hurt the dog in the course of the "fight" (which is the dog's view of it) and like any intelligent creature it'll back away and avoid getting hurt next time, but they will (if pressed or again, trained to) continue the attack. But thankfully these are few and far between and usually owned by the sadistic, military and some K-9 police force, though generally _those_ dogs are trained to hold their quarry (read: criminal, suspect, prisoner, etc) until their "master" arrives, if left to their own they will tear into a person. Though not mindlessly. A highly (specialized) trained dog will stick to it's training via conditioning. They have no thought or reasoning of their own. This is why I cannot agree that animals have a "soul" like ours. Intelligence yes, without question. But reasoning? No. 
Thing is also with man. How many people you know of that will have that total fearlessness of a big (German Shepard, Doberman, Rottwiler, etc.) snarling "I'm tearing you a new ****" dog? Very few ... same with the dogs.  
The chances that the two shall meet... well, that'd make for an interesting video wouldn't it? (j/k) 
Just as we have to be in a particular mindset when we walk out our doors into the big bad world to defend ourselves from human assailants we also need to keep a frame of mind for the canine versions.  Having confidence to face both says a lot about a person.


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## lonecoyote (Dec 2, 2004)

Thanks KenpoTess. Well said MACaver, and it is absolutely true that I was thinking more of aggressive feral dogs than of dogs specifically trained to attack. Vadim's post had started me to rethinking my position too, as far as these types of dogs, after I reread this thread. Dogs want to please us so badly that they will go against their instincts and become killing machines for us. Makes me sick. Still , man with stick or crowbar or framing hammer or whatever beats dog, every time. and although I know you weren't serious, I wouldn't want to see the video, not ever. Not sure what you mean by reasoning. If left to its own devices , no conditioning, or training, a dog would decide a certain quarry is nothing to mess with. Sounds like reasoning to me albeit on a very primitive level. A human master has overriden the reasoning of the dogs when they are trained to attack. We condition human beings to kill each other, face danger, even certain death too, training ourselves the way we train dogs. Who is lacking reasoning, the trained or the trainers?


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## Bloomingtianshilotus (Dec 2, 2004)

I have sat in an emergency room at least a few times while a small child has been brought in for treatment after being mauled. Some dogs will certainly attack and since this was my thread to begin with, your av aggressive dog, as opposed to your few and far between "Tramps " is what I was really directing my questions toward. The stick tht I was talking about wedging between his jaws is a strictly defence measure and if the dog didn't pounce to attack, there would be no need to use it. Its only when it went to bite, that you'd lodge it in its mouth and break its neck before it could do more damahge. Speaking of morally though ( and as far as the laws logic), it is at this stage that on the appropriate use of force continum the response is appropriate. That dog could be about to do grevious bodily harm. Unfortunately, it's justifiable and reasonable.

Blooming Lotus


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## MA-Caver (Dec 2, 2004)

Bloomingtianshilotus said:
			
		

> I have sat in an emergency room at least a few times while a small child has been brought in for treatment after being mauled.
> Blooming Lotus


There's a little difference with this type of attack. Since dogs are instinctively hunters... a small child could be perceived as prey, and harmless to it, which is why kids get mangled pretty good (and sadly killed sometimes) when attacked by a (large) dog. 
This goes with the predatory instincts of the animal. Same goes for out in the wild. A kid wandering in the wilderness (deep wilderness mind you) has a higher chance of being attacked by a predator than say a strong adult. If the adult in question was injured and weak then their chances of being attacked goes up. 
Same with feral animals in the cities/towns we live in.  It's natural for a predatory animal to seek out weaker animals (in their eyes we are no different) and gauge if the "hunt" would pay off or not.


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## sojobow (Dec 8, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> This goes with the predatory instincts of the animal. Same goes for out in the wild. A kid wandering in the wilderness (deep wilderness mind you) has a higher chance of being attacked by a predator than say a strong adult.


I practice with and against a dog every day.  I wanted to know first hand, up close, how they (a most prevalent animal) act and how their instincts work.  Little dog now, but growing real fast and moves exceptionally fast.  As he grows stronger, so will your abilities.  Quite a bit safer than a Tiger, Crane, Cobra, Monkey, Dragon (those old Chinese styles).  One thing I have learned from this experience is that these K-9s actually "grab" versus "bit."  The damage I have incurred was due to my pulling, pushing against them assisting them in ripping the skin.  They depend on you assisting them. So lesson learned, don't panic and fight against them but fight "with" them until you gain the advantage.  They tire quickly.  Which ever direction they pull, just go with them to avoid being ripped.

They also have to release the hold to take a breath.  They are extremely fast and will Re-Grip the hold which presents an opportunity to move away.  But again, if they regrip while you're pulling away, you get a hole in your arm.

I purposefully do this "training" because I notice that we have these "animal" strikes and stances and I wished to really understand what it is I was being taught about the "tiger claw."

I also think that, to be a more complete martial artist, one should have a trained animal at their side.  They will save your life against man or animal.  Noticed on the news recently where two Retrievers treed a mountain lion in southern cal.  At least 3 died this year in southern cal due to mountain lion attacks.  Those humans that lived, had a K-9 warrior on their side.

(If you run from a trained Rottweilder, you'll only die tired)

Hope this helps.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 20, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Have heard an argument in recent months on dog defence tactics, and what to do when being attacked by one. No one really came up with any solid and from much experience so when i had the opportunity with a master trainer and highly reputed secuirty expert, I ran it by himself.
> 
> He seems to think that by getting the dog to bite some thing else ( like a stick or possibley something wider, his mouth is committed and disengaged from further attack, leaving you free to execute a mabu to gongbu style hand twist circle breaking rovers neck.
> 
> ...


Are you talking chihuahua's? Seriously, in addition to martial arts, I work a police K9. If the dog you are being attacked by is just some aggressive untrained dog, then your best bet is to stand your ground, make yourself look big and yell really loud. If he runs at you, kick him in the chest as hard as you can. That will work against 99% of the dogs out there. 

I promise you that if you're going up against a trained dog, though, he has more aggression and better weapons than you do if he's a truly rank dog who's been selection tested and has a solid temperment (meaning he won't run or back down). If you go up against this kind of 1%er dog, you better have a weapon, and it better be a good one. I know of a police K9 who was sent in to a building after a burgalar. The guy hit the dog in the head with a metal pipe as hard as he could. The dog then proceeded to seperate the muscle of the guys calf from the bone. Had it not been for the handler, the dog would probably have done worse. I kid you not, if you're going up against a trained dog, you're not going to rip his throat out with your hands, it sounds nice but it's not going to happen. If you're going to be dealing with these type of dogs, you better have at least a good knife. Bury the knife in his eye after you feed him your weak hand (I say weak hand, because if you're going to get a permanent disability, it might as well be your weak hand). Good luck.

P.S. as for the previous post about police K9's "grabbing", that's a bit of a misconception. Police K9's that are trained properly utilize a full mouth, deep bite, meaning they grip with the back of their mouth. What this allows is the dog to maintain the hold no matter how much you struggle. It will also crush the bones in your arm, so you "not struggling" won't help, except that a good police K9 will stop biting you if you don't struggle. A dog that wants to hurt you, will simply continue biting and will crush whatever bone he has ahold of. I know, i've been the recipient of an accidental bite. Lucky for me, he released before too much damage was done (I still needed 12 stitches) and that was accidental.

Still, the best advice is to stand your ground and NEVER run, running will encourage even a fairly timid dog who wouldn't really attack you, to attack.  It invokes the dogs natural prey drive.  Most dogs don't have the kind of fight drive required to actually attack an adult who stands their ground.  That's reserved for those 1%er's I talked about before.

For those interested in understanding who to fight off a dog, you might study the different types of dog aggression.  Fight, Prey, and Defense, so they can read a dogs intentions.  This will go a long way towards helping you deal with an aggressive dog.  A good start on the web would probably be www.leerburg.com it has some excellent articles on dealing with aggressive dogs, along with the different types of dog aggression.


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## greyghost (Dec 21, 2004)

Kembudo had me rolling...great post.
 With the average dog, yes, all that grabbing, yelling/kiaing and being the bigger, meaner dog works wonders. I have a pit bull mutt and she was a little headstrong at first - but I showed her I was louder, faster, and had no trouble putting her down. She's my best bud.

 But against a feral, hell-bent creature who has been trained to be deadly? You got me there.


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## Kane (Dec 22, 2004)

I have actually fought dogs before, so many I can give some insight.


If the dogs are less than 100 pounds it really is little of a challenge. Actually a good kick to the jaw and the dog will back off.

Even some dogs over 100 pounds will give up because contrary to popular belief many dogs are weak when it comes to pain, well many dogs.


Then there are dogs like mastiffs or American Bulldogs. If those dogs attack you be prepared to fight for your life. If you have to kill the dog then that has to be your choice. Choking is the best method for any type of animal belonging to the order Carnivora (dogs, cats, bears, ect.). People have actually overpowered leopards by strangling. There was one case where a 75 year old man strangled a leopard to death (which is stronger and more dangerous than cougars). So grabbing the windpipe of the dog is your best bet though it may lead to death of the dog. Then again when your life is at stake it doesn't really matter.


One fight I was with was a German Shepard. It was quite easy. I grabbed his muzzle and roundhouse kicked it and the dog went scurrying away. If you know what to do, no dog can be that much of a challenge unless it is a Mastiff or Bulldog.


Ok I lied, mastiffs and American Bulldogs are not the toughest dogs you can encounter. Bandogs and Tosas are even tougher. These dogs weigh around 150 pounds and will fight no matter what pain it feels. These a true gamebred dogs, like a giant pit bull.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 22, 2004)

I also know that Chows, Shar-pei's, Rotties, Malmutes, Huskies,  and other species of dogs were bred and used in the infamous pit fighting centuries ago. Some were bred specifically for that like Chows and Shar-pei's for thick fur and loose skin (respectively), Rotties, Mastiffs (even Shar-pei's) and others for their powerful jaws and so forth. 
Later these animals were bred for a more milder type of domesticity but inheirent in each of them are the fighting abilities specific to their breed.  That sort of thing don't get bred out of their gene pool in a few generations. 
I recall in Dallas when I lived in a two story apt. complex... from my window we could see into the yard of a latino family... their back yard was home to a large Chow... the young guys would go out with their beers and chuck the empty cans at the dog and use their beat-up jackets to (literally) whip the dog into a frenzy. It was later I learned that it was never the owners of the dog but their friends from across town (read: strangers), their idea was to have the dog attack any stranger that comes to their house. Imprinting on the dog's psyche that the owners were the kind, loving masters and everyone else was out to hurt him. 
Cruel, heartless and mean I know, but ... but, it was an effective means of training. The dog attacked an intruder armed with a knife. The dog did a lot of damage and had to be put down by order of the court, but the family was safe because of the viciousness of the animal protecting it's pack members. 
Problem with that type of training of course is what if the intruder was a police officer in pursuit/search for a suspect? Or worse a child that happened to wander into the yard?  There are better ways to do it obviously. 
But this was a pure-bred chow, gorgeous animal btw, and it knew exactly how to fight, even a human being.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 22, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> I have actually fought dogs before, so many I can give some insight.
> 
> 
> If the dogs are less than 100 pounds it really is little of a challenge. Actually a good kick to the jaw and the dog will back off.
> ...


Aside from visiting the local pound, what dogs have you fought. The 100 pound quote is mostly made out of a bit of ignorance. I can guarantee that you've never fought a selection tested, solid temperment, well trained Belgian Malinois that weighs 75 pounds. You are not genetically designed to out fast these dogs, and he will eat your lunch. The common misconception is that 100 plus pound dogs are the most dangerous to people. Sure, a 140 pound Rottweiller or American Bulldog is intimidating, and very strong. The problem is, that a 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound linebacker, very impressive, but without a wide range of uses, except as a perimeter security dog.  These dogs can kill you, but believing because a dog is under 100 pounds you can easily take it is pure igorance. A 75 pound malinois will run 150 yards at 35mph to attack a human being, and slam his entire weight into your body at that same 35mph, generating the kind of explosive power a martial artist could only dream of. At the same time, accurately targeting to bite right under your arm pit. These types of animals are true athletes generating explosive power. Again, the dogs you've apparently been "Fighting" are nothing more than the kind of weak nerved products of bad breeding commonly found in the humane society. Unless there is some kind of Dog-UFC i'm not aware of, most people won't come in contact with much more than someone's wayward pet. If they get attacked by a trained dog, they are in for the real fight of their life and better have a weapon, because these types of dogs won't be cowed by a "roundhouse" kick. Truly rank dogs will have to be killed or rendered completely unconcious or incapacitated, and as soon as they regain conciousness they will attack again. Trained dogs are genetically predispositioned to be pain resistant, and are futher trained to deal with extreme aggression. It'll take more than a roundhouse kick "to send them scurrying". Again, not exactly the topic discussed, but I needed to alleviate a bit of misinformation.


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## greyghost (Dec 22, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> ...the dogs you've apparently been "Fighting" are nothing more than the kind of weak nerved products of bad breeding commonly found in the humane society. Unless there is some kind of Dog-UFC i'm not aware of, most people won't come in contact with much more than someone's wayward pet. If they get attacked by a trained dog, they are in for the real fight of their life and better have a weapon, because these types of dogs won't be cowed by a "roundhouse" kick. Truly rank dogs will have to be killed or rendered completely unconcious or incapacitated, and as soon as they regain conciousness they will attack again. Trained dogs are genetically predispositioned to be pain resistant, and are futher trained to deal with extreme aggression. It'll take more than a roundhouse kick "to send them scurrying". Again, not exactly the topic discussed, but I needed to alleviate a bit of misinformation.


 I can add to that. Most of the BIG dogs I have known (100/150 pound area) are a little slow. They can't run that fast, too much mass. Typically they're just giant teddy bears.

 Many dogs are pansies when it comes to pain. There are breeds that don't give a flying rat's a** how hard you beat it though. The commonly known dog like this is the pit bull - I have watched mine and watched others in play with other dogs. They are FAST, and powerful - flat-out amazing, it's like a dance to them, an art form. The other dog doesn't know what hit it - it got it's a** whooped before the game even began. Pit's have a high pain tolerance, and their abilities don't need exaggerating (the locking jaw BS).

 Would I want to face a well-trained, brutally taught pit bull? NO. A Doberman? NO. Rott? NO. So the question still remains - what can you do against a dog hell-bent on eating you for dinner, no matter what the cost to itself?


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## Kane (Dec 22, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Aside from visiting the local pound, what dogs have you fought. The 100 pound quote is mostly made out of a bit of ignorance. I can guarantee that you've never fought a selection tested, solid temperment, well trained Belgian Malinois that weighs 75 pounds. You are not genetically designed to out fast these dogs, and he will eat your lunch. The common misconception is that 100 plus pound dogs are the most dangerous to people. Sure, a 140 pound Rottweiller or American Bulldog is intimidating, and very strong. The problem is, that a 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound linebacker, very impressive, but without a wide range of uses, except as a perimeter security dog. These dogs can kill you, but believing because a dog is under 100 pounds you can easily take it is pure igorance. A 75 pound malinois will run 150 yards at 35mph to attack a human being, and slam his entire weight into your body at that same 35mph, generating the kind of explosive power a martial artist could only dream of. At the same time, accurately targeting to bite right under your arm pit. These types of animals are true athletes generating explosive power. Again, the dogs you've apparently been "Fighting" are nothing more than the kind of weak nerved products of bad breeding commonly found in the humane society. Unless there is some kind of Dog-UFC i'm not aware of, most people won't come in contact with much more than someone's wayward pet. If they get attacked by a trained dog, they are in for the real fight of their life and better have a weapon, because these types of dogs won't be cowed by a "roundhouse" kick. Truly rank dogs will have to be killed or rendered completely unconcious or incapacitated, and as soon as they regain conciousness they will attack again. Trained dogs are genetically predispositioned to be pain resistant, and are futher trained to deal with extreme aggression. It'll take more than a roundhouse kick "to send them scurrying". Again, not exactly the topic discussed, but I needed to alleviate a bit of misinformation.


 
Okay, some of the dogs you mention are tough but you are now overrating those dogs. No dog can have the force of a 600 pound linebacker that is an absurd illogical statement. They even calculated a Bengal tiger running at 35 miles and hour has the same strength as 3 linebackers at top speed so what you are saying is a little dog can hit with more force than a 500 pound tiger. I actually know quite a bit of knowledge about fighting dogs. There is another forum I participate in and I have confirmed many of the things I said.

First of all, if you think about any dog can scare a human into running. The question is if the human was brave enough to fight back, will the dog be able to beat the man? Most dogs under 100 pounds cannot do this, even the pit bull. Yes pit bulls are the ultimate fighting dogs but they have really been bred to fight other dogs, not humans. In fact, pit bulls are poor man fights so if a man with guts decided to attack the dog then the dog will be in a lot of trouble.

Even dogs like the giant Great Dane are very poor fighters because of their pain threshold. 

There are however certain dogs that are bred to take down any man regardless of how courageous they are. These dogs are bandogs or tosas. Bulldogs are not slow and weak. Bulldogs re one of the best fighter out there and can destroy any dog you can think of except for maybe a bandog or tosa.

Oh and yes the German Shepard I fought was in a park and I think it was a stray. Most dogs are not as savage as many people think, in fact you can beat dog if your mind is mentally prepared to handle the stress of a dog. It is all in the mind.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Okay, some of the dogs you mention are tough but you are now overrating those dogs. No dog can have the force of a 600 pound linebacker that is an absurd illogical statement. They even calculated a Bengal tiger running at 35 miles and hour has the same strength as 3 linebackers at top speed so what you are saying is a little dog can hit with more force than a 500 pound tiger. I actually know quite a bit of knowledge about fighting dogs. There is another forum I participate in and I have confirmed many of the things I said.
> 
> First of all, if you think about any dog can scare a human into running. The question is if the human was brave enough to fight back, will the dog be able to beat the man? Most dogs under 100 pounds cannot do this, even the pit bull. Yes pit bulls are the ultimate fighting dogs but they have really been bred to fight other dogs, not humans. In fact, pit bulls are poor man fights so if a man with guts decided to attack the dog then the dog will be in a lot of trouble.
> 
> ...


You misunderstand my analogy. I did not say a 75 pound dog HITS like a 600 pound linebacker, I said a 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound linebacker....pretty useless, but impressive looking (anyone remember the Fridge Perry?) I think you're a bit over impressed by large dogs, a common misconception held by working dog novices. A 75 pound dog such as a malinois is much more agile than a 150 pound dog. It isn't the overall size of the dog that makes it deadly. Think of the body of the dog as a delivery system for it's main weapon, it's jaws. A malinois is plenty powerful enough and agile enough to get past most of your defenses. You are not quicker than these dogs, and by the time they have bitten into your pectoral muscles, or your back (which is what I train mine to do, hit you from behind and bite you by the shoulder or back muscles or under the arm pit) it's over. They can tear muscle from the bone. Your statement about "Most dogs aren't as savage as many people think" i've already pointed out. 99% of the dogs out there are like you've experienced, weaked-tempered dogs who wouldn't bite any adult who stood their ground. I work with truely rank dogs who's breeding and temperment is solid, they don't run from humans, they don't back down and the only way to stop them is to kill them when they go in to fight drive. Again, your over-emphasis on the size of the dog is much like the over-emphasis on size in humans. A 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound human, with all the restrictions they have. An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter. That's why most American's breed 120 plus pound german shepherds, which aren't as powerful and agile as an 80 pound german shepherd, nor do they have that all important factor known as stamina. That's why there are breed standards, those standards are the physical range where the design and build of a working dog are at their maximum. Telling me that a 75 pound dog can't hurt you as badly as a 150 pound dog, is like saying a 200 pound male fighter can't hurt you as badly as a 600 pound male fighter. It's purely a novice misconception. Finally, temperment is much more important than physical size. A dog with a solid temperment and fight drive is a very dangerous dog indeed. A huge dog with a weak temperment is impressive looking. It's obvious by your over-emphasis on dog sizes that you don't understand temperment when evaluating it's abilities. That's a common problem. If someone wants to learn to defend themselves against dogs, they should start by understanding different dog temperments and what different dog behavior means, not by believing that a 150 pound dog is dangerous and an 80 pound one isn't. Again, most American dog owners and breeders place way too much emphasis on size, which is why Americans mostly breed big, junky dogs. That's also why police departments and the military have to import dogs from Europe, because the Europeans understand the truth...Temperment is the primary concern, followed by physical aspects of the dog. What most people mistake for an aggressive, tough dog is a dog who is just really afraid and has learned to intimidate people by snarling and growling. These dogs are not tough, they are weak-tempered dogs who spend most of their live afraid. A truly rank dog is not intimidated by a human being.  I happen to know of a truly rank male German Shepherd working police dog who was doing a building search and ran in to a burglary suspect.  The suspect hit the dog in the head with a pipe as hard as he could.  The dog immediately attacked the guy and seperated his calf muscle from the leg.  That's a fight ending injury, and anyone who thinks they could take this dog in hand to hand combat is deluding themselves.  This dog was 85 pounds.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 23, 2004)

http://www.breedclub.org/malfaq.htm 
This may help eh?


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> http://www.breedclub.org/malfaq.htm
> This may help eh?


Nice website on malinois.  Anyone who is seriously wanting to understand dog aggression should research it on www.leerburg.com.  In addition, there's some good video of what a trained K9 looks like during an attack at http://www.tiekerhook.com/ just go to the videos section, and look at the video on Max to see just what you'd be up against with a trained dog.  Fortunately, most trained dogs are in the hands of professional people.  There are, however, unscrupulous and unknowledgeable people who get a hard dog for whatever reason and teach them enough to be dangerous.  An understanding of dog behavior is more important than tactics, though if you think you make come in contact with this kind of dog tactics wouldn't be a bad thing to consider.


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## Kane (Dec 23, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> You misunderstand my analogy. I did not say a 75 pound dog HITS like a 600 pound linebacker, I said a 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound linebacker....pretty useless, but impressive looking (anyone remember the Fridge Perry?) I think you're a bit over impressed by large dogs, a common misconception held by working dog novices. A 75 pound dog such as a malinois is much more agile than a 150 pound dog. It isn't the overall size of the dog that makes it deadly. Think of the body of the dog as a delivery system for it's main weapon, it's jaws. A malinois is plenty powerful enough and agile enough to get past most of your defenses. You are not quicker than these dogs, and by the time they have bitten into your pectoral muscles, or your back (which is what I train mine to do, hit you from behind and bite you by the shoulder or back muscles or under the arm pit) it's over. They can tear muscle from the bone. Your statement about "Most dogs aren't as savage as many people think" i've already pointed out. 99% of the dogs out there are like you've experienced, weaked-tempered dogs who wouldn't bite any adult who stood their ground. I work with truely rank dogs who's breeding and temperment is solid, they don't run from humans, they don't back down and the only way to stop them is to kill them when they go in to fight drive. Again, your over-emphasis on the size of the dog is much like the over-emphasis on size in humans. A 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound human, with all the restrictions they have. An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter. That's why most American's breed 120 plus pound german shepherds, which aren't as powerful and agile as an 80 pound german shepherd, nor do they have that all important factor known as stamina. That's why there are breed standards, those standards are the physical range where the design and build of a working dog are at their maximum. Telling me that a 75 pound dog can't hurt you as badly as a 150 pound dog, is like saying a 200 pound male fighter can't hurt you as badly as a 600 pound male fighter. It's purely a novice misconception. Finally, temperment is much more important than physical size. A dog with a solid temperment and fight drive is a very dangerous dog indeed. A huge dog with a weak temperment is impressive looking. It's obvious by your over-emphasis on dog sizes that you don't understand temperment when evaluating it's abilities. That's a common problem. If someone wants to learn to defend themselves against dogs, they should start by understanding different dog temperments and what different dog behavior means, not by believing that a 150 pound dog is dangerous and an 80 pound one isn't. Again, most American dog owners and breeders place way too much emphasis on size, which is why Americans mostly breed big, junky dogs. That's also why police departments and the military have to import dogs from Europe, because the Europeans understand the truth...Temperment is the primary concern, followed by physical aspects of the dog. What most people mistake for an aggressive, tough dog is a dog who is just really afraid and has learned to intimidate people by snarling and growling. These dogs are not tough, they are weak-tempered dogs who spend most of their live afraid. A truly rank dog is not intimidated by a human being. I happen to know of a truly rank male German Shepherd working police dog who was doing a building search and ran in to a burglary suspect. The suspect hit the dog in the head with a pipe as hard as he could. The dog immediately attacked the guy and seperated his calf muscle from the leg. That's a fight ending injury, and anyone who thinks they could take this dog in hand to hand combat is deluding themselves. This dog was 85 pounds.


Now you are really overrating the dogs. Okay, maybe I was underrating them a little. However the statement "a 150 dog is like a 600 pound man" is very illogical. Do your realize humans have overpowered leopard and cougars? In the other thread you stated that big cats are impossible to beat without a spear or sword which automatically implies that you think that big cats are better than most dogs as fighters. However people have beaten these cats so I think in general you seem to overrating all animals it seems.


The statement "An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter" is even more absurd. What you are saying is that the laws of nature do not apply to humans, Laws such as size or aggression. A 210 pound fighter human has a good chance in taking down a large leopard and a 600 pound man (who is not obese) has a good chance in taking down a small lion no more than 400 pounds. It is called logic. It is no as if it has been proved that humans are extremely weak because like I said before humans have overpowered leopards and cougars before and these men were not martial artist. Of course it is not normal for such a thing but it shows that many dogs as strong as you think.

I seriously doubt that the German Shepard I fought was a police trained dog. If it was I probably would have had a much tougher time but let me tell you even if the German Shepard is police trained it is not like an 800 pound man. German Shepards are NOT the top in fighting ability. In fact, German Shepards are not true fighting dogs. However yes, a police trained German Shepard would beat most people but I doubt a person who has a high tolerance for pain or is a trained fighter.

Seriously though, the real dogs people really need to worry about besides police trained dogs are American Bulldogs, Neo Mastiffs, Tosas, or Bandogs. It is NOT there size is what makes them great though it does help, it is the gamebred attitude. This attitude can only be attained after careful selective breeding.

For a large gamebred dog (American Bulldogs, Neo Mastiffs, Tosas, or Bandogs, ect.), even a trained fighter humans stand little chance but there are even exceptions to that. In Alaska in the early 1900s a man actually challenged a Bulldog to a fight and after a 6 hour fight the man BARELLY won, the dog could barely get up in the end. However the man looked like he had been in a train-wreck but this clearly shows that man can if he puts his heart into it even stop a gamebred dog, though it is no likely.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Now you are really overrating the dogs. Okay, maybe I was underrating them a little. However the statement "a 150 dog is like a 600 pound man" is very illogical. Do your realize humans have overpowered leopard and cougars? In the other thread you stated that big cats are impossible to beat without a spear or sword which automatically implies that you think that big cats are better than most dogs as fighters. However people have beaten these cats so I think in general you seem to overrating all animals it seems.
> 
> 
> The statement "An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter" is even more absurd. What you are saying is that the laws of nature do not apply to humans, Laws such as size or aggression. A 210 pound fighter human has a good chance in taking down a large leopard and a 600 pound man (who is not obese) has a good chance in taking down a small lion no more than 400 pounds. It is called logic. It is no as if it has been proved that humans are extremely weak because like I said before humans have overpowered leopards and cougars before and these men were not martial artist. Of course it is not normal for such a thing but it shows that many dogs as strong as you think.
> ...


Now i'm starting to become concerned about your logical reasoning ability. I've tried to explain the statement about the 600 pound linebacker several times, and you don't seem to get it. I'm not sure if you can get it. I think you should reread my post, or have someone read it and explain it to you before making such bizarre statements. This is getting very silly. I suggest you not get fighting information from Ripley's believe it or not. The fact that people have managed to fight off big cats is more of a fluke accident, than any real skill. I did find your "A 600 pound man who is not obese" statement to be humorous though. I never met a 600 pound man who wasn't obese. I also haven't met any who could run 1 1/2 miles. It is possible to fight off a trained dog, but it requires killing or severly disabling the animal. You do not have a higher pain tolerance than these animals. I think your ego is doing most of the talking for you, and you should check it at the door when talking to someone who actually works with these animals. I doubt you've ever fought any dog and i'm sure that your experience with these types of animals consist of exchanging whoppers with your friends who own a pitbull or a presa canario. It's the same type of ego thinking I get from guys who claim they're immune to pepperspray (despite never having been sprayed) and can fight through the effects of an M26 Taser (despite never having been shocked). It means nothing. It's more likely you think you can do these things, and you're exchanging untested layman theory for real world experience. That's fine, just don't share it with other people like it actually happened. It's apparent you know very little about dog behavior and temperment. This is proven by the lack of any depth of understanding about the dogs, other than what you've heard and what they look like. Finally, this whole discussion is just deterioting in to one big fish story after another.  As far as the 6 hour fight in the early 1900's, i've heard the same story, and you might want to be a little more critical of these types of stories.  People have a tendency to exaggerate these things or flat out lie.  Again, ego is a funny thing, and it has no real place in a practical discussion.  As far as gamebred dogs, i'll give you that they are extremely powerful and have injured and killed a lot of people.  What's worse is that many gamebred dog owners are idiots and are motivated by shear ego to have a big tough dog that they are unqualified to own and don't have the slightest idea how to train. They allow their monsters to roam the streets and those who usually suffer the bites of these type dogs are children.  Pitbulls are responsible for more deaths annually than any other breed.  It comes from the poor breeding and ignorance of some owners of these type of animals (and I don't mean they were abused, I mean the owners didn't know how to train them, so they let them run free).  The best way to fight this type of dog is with a shotgun.  I know, i've shot more of these dogs than any other breed.  So, yes, gamebred dogs are dangerous, a fact I haven't disputed, having dealt with many myself.  What makes pitbulls and other dogs of this nature particularly dangerous is their thick frontal skulls which can actually deflect some pistol rounds.  As I said, it's more important for people concerned about these types of dogs to understand dog behavior, than discussing specific martial arts strategies to attack them.  An understanding of dog behavior can someone avoid being bitten.  Teaching their children about dog behavior.


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## Bod (Dec 29, 2004)

> _SgtMac:_ It comes from the poor breeding and ignorance of some owners of these type of animals.


Are you saying that only the aristocracy should own certain types of dog? Does the owner have to be a duke, earl or such like? Is this why the Queen of England owns corgis?


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## MA-Caver (Dec 29, 2004)

Bod said:
			
		

> > SgtMac: It comes from the poor breeding and ignorance of some owners of these type of animals.
> 
> 
> Are you saying that only the aristocracy should own certain types of dog? Does the owner have to be a duke, earl or such like? Is this why the Queen of England owns corgis?


I don't read he's saying anything like that. I've seen enough of poor breeding and ignorant owners myself (see post #36 in this thread) to support SgtMac's statement. While it wasn't a poor breeding (never seen the dog's papers) it was a prime example of ignorant ownership and training. 
Owning a dog is a right and a responsibility just like having a child. A friend of mine that once worked with rehabilitating wolves back into the wild, told me that (domestic) dogs are perpetual puppies or immature. Wolves have to work at getting their foods. This comes from cooperative pack effort and a wolf that doesn't help out in bringing down the prey of the day don't eat and is likely to be killed by the alpha male or run out of the pack to fend for it's own.
Domestic dogs are literally hand fed from puppyhood to the end of their days, thus they don't mature in the same (mentality?) as their wild counterparts, including jackals, hyenas and so forth. 
You can teach a dog practically anything (  within reason okay?) and while it still may rely upon instinct to find/forage for food should it be without human companion(s), it will have the mentality of a child/puppy.  The ignorant owner will take advantage of this and train the dog to be as mean or as sweet as he/she wants the dog to be without realizing the dog's full potential. 
Professional trainers and K-9 officers (civilian and military) will have the intelligence to utilize the dogs breeding, instinct and intelligence to his/her advantage. They will put the dog to work, but the dog is still "hand-fed". All it's sustance comes from it's (perceived) Alpha Male/Female, water, food, affection and attention/training. 
A person's class or station in life does not allow them anymore privaledges to own a dog than one lower than they are. Money will usually determine the type/breed and linage of the type of dog the prospective owner gets.  How they train the dog is their responsibility. Even if they're wealthy enough to afford a professional trainer. A less "well-to-do" owner will train the dog themselves the best way they know how.


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## Simon Curran (Dec 29, 2004)

I have to be honest, Im not sure why the average layman would even feel it was necessary to be able to fight a dog, but as has been stated before, (and this is just my personal opinion by the way) anyone who is going to try and fight a police dog or such like better have a gun, a police dog handler I once spoke to told me that their animals are tought to attack, not to restrain...


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 29, 2004)

Bod said:
			
		

> Are you saying that only the aristocracy should own certain types of dog? Does the owner have to be a duke, earl or such like? Is this why the Queen of England owns corgis?


You misunderstand me. What I mean by poor breeding, isn't some aristocratic term. Dog breeders and handlers understand that many dog characteristics, aggression, hip disorders, deafness, sharpness, timidity, and a host of behavior problems are generally inherited. What I mean by poor breeding is the idea that just because my neighbor and I both have pitbulls, it's a good idea to breed them together simply because they are both pitbulls. This, despite the fact that my dog may be a fear biter and my neighbors dog may be crazy. When we get done, we'll probably have puppies that have inherited one or both of those traits.  These dogs will probably grow up to be nightmares that we can't handle. That's why good breeders (not the junkyard/backyard variety) spend so much time testing the temperment of their dogs, and don't breed any dog that exhibits traits that are undesireable. Contrary to popular opinion, a great deal of dog behavior is the result of genetics, not upbringing. That's why there are so many dogs that snap at small children that are said to have "been abused". Some of them may have been abused, but the majority are simply the result of poor breeding and bad temperment. My experience with dog breeding and training is primarily with Belgian Malinois and German Shepherds. When I say "Good breeding" for these breeds, I mean dogs who have high drive, solid temperment, and good nerves. Any dog that exhibits poor traits should never be bred as those traits will likely be transmitted to some or all of the that dogs off-spring. That's what I mean by breeding.  This isn't to say that many dogs that aren't pure bred aren't very good dogs.  I am simply saying that an understanding of good temperment is necessary when looking at a dog.  Dogs with poor temperment should never be bred, no matter how pretty or impressive the dog may look.

What I mean by ignorance is someone who buys a "tough dog" breed puppy because their ego is telling them they need a tough dog, but they don't have the slightest idea about how to safely train and deal with this dog as it gets older. I'm sure you've all seen it, this dog gets about a year or so old and the owner doesn't think it's so cute any more, so they log chain it in the back yard. The dog is constantly breaking the chain or otherwise escaping and running with the neighborhood dogs. It gets two years old and it's hormones kick it in to adulthood. Being a large, aggressive dog, it decides to lead the pack it's been running with. It then begins chasing cattle, fighting other dogs and maybe chasing and biting adults and children. In the mean time, the ignorant owner of this dog catches him every once in a while and chains him back up, but never moves to solve the problem and ignores the neighbors request that he do so. Then, one day, a small child gets injured or killed by this dog. Happens more often than you think. This is what I mean by an ignorant owner.

Dog ownership is a responsibility. It's infinitely more of a responsibility if you decide to buy a herding breed dog or a gamebreed dog who is capable of causing death or serious physical injury if they are handled incorrectly. The fact is, it's the untrained "family pet" that is responsible for most of the deaths and injuries caused by dog bites. Truely trained dogs are under the control of their owner and represent very little danger, despite the fact that they may be capable of defending the handler against a threat.

Of course this is somewhat beyond the intent of this forum.


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## Bod (Dec 29, 2004)

My original post should have come with a smiley. It was supposed to be dry humour. The joke didn't quite make it across the Atlantic.

Still, the response was very informative, and I appreciate that. We fear that which we don't understand, and the more information we have the more rationally we can approach our fears.

I've seen people applying human psychology to dogs and it just doesn't work. Dogs are different to primates. Primates are chiefly vegetarian. We don't hunt to the extent that dogs do, and our social setup and the roles we play are different to those of dogs, mostly because of this reason.

The only way for humans to coexist with dogs (and any other species) is to understand them first, on _their_ terms. A snarling dog is not a sociopathic maniac human in wolf's clothing, it is a snarling dog. We shouldn't let fear tell us otherwise.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 29, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> <snip> Dog ownership is a responsibility. It's infinitely more of a responsibility if you decide to buy a herding breed dog or a gamebreed dog who is capable of causing death or serious physical injury if they are handled incorrectly. The fact is, it's the untrained "family pet" that is responsible for most of the deaths and injuries caused by dog bites. Truely trained dogs are under the control of their owner and represent very little danger, despite the fact that they may be capable of defending the handler against a threat.


I'm sorry Sarge but I'll (personally) just will not go with that one. My long experience with dogs has taught me to never-ever trust any one of them... period. I don't care if it is the sweetest little thing on God's green earth. When handling any dog, even if it's a lovable, sweet, lick-ya-ta-death kinda animal... I always place my hands in a position where I can thrust the animal away from me quickly or grab ahold of it to restrain it. I'll hug 'em and I'll love 'em because I do love dogs, but I'll always have that wee bit of readiness at a moments notice. This varies with the breed of course but my own deep sense of distrust is still there regardless. 
Now true that dogs can sense fear, aggression and negative feelings. I try not to project these best as I can. Again it depends upon the animal and what it's been trained (or not trained) to do. 
No, I've never been mauled by these animals but I have been attacked by them. However; this does not give rise to my caution. It's just ... well, I don't trust them. 
My point, and this is for my own opinion, is that _any_ (adult) animal capable of inflicting bodily harm upon me will not ever be trusted completely. This goes for cute widdle kitties too. 
Trained or not, loyal-fight/defend to the death family friend kinda dog ... I won't trust them, utterly and completely.   :idunno: ...but then... that's just me.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 30, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Sarge but I'll (personally) just will not go with that one. My long experience with dogs has taught me to never-ever trust any one of them... period. I don't care if it is the sweetest little thing on God's green earth. When handling any dog, even if it's a lovable, sweet, lick-ya-ta-death kinda animal... I always place my hands in a position where I can thrust the animal away from me quickly or grab ahold of it to restrain it. I'll hug 'em and I'll love 'em because I do love dogs, but I'll always have that wee bit of readiness at a moments notice. This varies with the breed of course but my own deep sense of distrust is still there regardless.
> Now true that dogs can sense fear, aggression and negative feelings. I try not to project these best as I can. Again it depends upon the animal and what it's been trained (or not trained) to do.
> No, I've never been mauled by these animals but I have been attacked by them. However; this does not give rise to my caution. It's just ... well, I don't trust them.
> My point, and this is for my own opinion, is that _any_ (adult) animal capable of inflicting bodily harm upon me will not ever be trusted completely. This goes for cute widdle kitties too.
> Trained or not, loyal-fight/defend to the death family friend kinda dog ... I won't trust them, utterly and completely. :idunno: ...but then... that's just me.


You miss the point.  A trained dog with a responsible owner won't be around you.  It's the untrained dog that some idiot lets run wild that's the problem.  I don't let strangers pet, snuggle, kiss or otherwise interact with my dogs.  I only let acquantances do so in a controlled environment with me present.  I know what my dogs are capable of, so I control every aspect of their lives.  It's the "Untrained" family pet that bites people.  My dogs don't bite people at random because I don't allow them too.  I'm the alpha and I decide who gets bit, not my dogs.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 30, 2004)

Bod said:
			
		

> My original post should have come with a smiley. It was supposed to be dry humour. The joke didn't quite make it across the Atlantic.
> 
> Still, the response was very informative, and I appreciate that. We fear that which we don't understand, and the more information we have the more rationally we can approach our fears.
> 
> ...


Yes, in order to understand dogs we must first understand one of the most important aspect of a dogs life. Pack order and pack drive. Where the dog fits in the pack is an over-riding concern among every dog. Some dogs are content to be the bottom of the pack. Others spend much of their time trying to climb the pack. A snarling dog is a dog that feels distressed and threatened by a situation. Confident dogs who are confident with a situation do not snarl, raise their hackles or act like a caged animal. My dogs do not snarl, and wouldn't even if they were about to bite you. Understanding how a dog carries it's tail, it's posture, how it's body is bladed as it approches you, how high it hold's it's tail, are all important clues to the dogs intent and confidence level. Barking is a territorial trait, this is why many stray dogs don't bark, because they don't have a territory to defend. Growling is a warning. Not all dogs growl before they attack, however. A wagging tail, contrary to popular opinion, does not mean the dog is happy to see you, it means the dog is excited. This may be because the dog is happy to see you, or in the case of my dogs, it may be because they are excited that they might get to bite the guy in the bite suit. It's important to understand this distinction. Understanding dog behavior is much more useful than understanding how to roundhouse kick a dog in the head. You can avoid many problems with dogs simply by understanding how they speak to each other. It isn't verbal, it's physical. When we say that a dog can "Sense fear", they don't have a psychic ability to sense you fear and they don't smell it. They see it in your posture, how you blade your body to them, and how you carry yourself. Confident dogs walk straight up to other dogs, head held high. It's a sign of submission in the dog world to blade your body away from a dog, and many dogs with dominance issues will decide you are an easy mark if you act timid around it. Many of you with experience with dogs can tell story about dogs who decided they didn't like a certain person. Many times the dog simply had a person who was intimidated by it, and the dog decided to improve it's pack order by "punking" that person out.  Running from a dog creates prey drive, which is the dogs naturally tendency to chase objects that flee from it.  This will cause a somewhat timid dog, to chase and bite you from behind, emboldened by the new view of you as a prey item.  Standing your ground will often deter some dogs.  If a dog advances slowly, you can reteat by slowly moving backwards away from the dog, never turning your back to the dog.  Make yourself look bigger, don't blade your body away from the dog.  Yell very loudly at the dog in a very harsh voice.  Throw a rock at him.  If he comes close hit a stick.  Most dogs won't fight a human being who appears to be willing to put up a fight.  (I did say most)


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## MA-Caver (Dec 30, 2004)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Yes, in order to understand dogs we must first understand one of the most important aspect of a dogs life. Pack order and pack drive. Where the dog fits in the pack is an over-riding concern among every dog. Some dogs are content to be the bottom of the pack. Others spend much of their time trying to climb the pack. A snarling dog is a dog that feels distressed and threatened by a situation. Confident dogs who are confident with a situation do not snarl, raise their hackles or act like a caged animal. My dogs do not snarl, and wouldn't even if they were about to bite you. Understanding how a dog carries it's tail, it's posture, how it's body is bladed as it approches you, how high it hold's it's tail, are all important clues to the dogs intent and confidence level. Barking is a territorial trait, this is why many stray dogs don't bark, because they don't have a territory to defend. Growling is a warning. Not all dogs growl before they attack, however. A wagging tail, contrary to popular opinion, does not mean the dog is happy to see you, it means the dog is excited. This may be because the dog is happy to see you, or in the case of my dogs, it may be because they are excited that they might get to bite the guy in the bite suit. It's important to understand this distinction. Understanding dog behavior is much more useful than understanding how to roundhouse kick a dog in the head. You can avoid many problems with dogs simply by understanding how they speak to each other. It isn't verbal, it's physical. When we say that a dog can "Sense fear", they don't have a psychic ability to sense you fear and they don't smell it. They see it in your posture, how you blade your body to them, and how you carry yourself. Confident dogs walk straight up to other dogs, head held high. It's a sign of submission in the dog world to blade your body away from a dog, and many dogs with dominance issues will decide you are an easy mark if you act timid around it. Many of you with experience with dogs can tell story about dogs who decided they didn't like a certain person. Many times the dog simply had a person who was intimidated by it, and the dog decided to improve it's pack order by "punking" that person out.  Running from a dog creates prey drive, which is the dogs naturally tendency to chase objects that flee from it.  This will cause a somewhat timid dog, to chase and bite you from behind, emboldened by the new view of you as a prey item.  Standing your ground will often deter some dogs.  If a dog advances slowly, you can reteat by slowly moving backwards away from the dog, never turning your back to the dog.  Make yourself look bigger, don't blade your body away from the dog.  Yell very loudly at the dog in a very harsh voice.  Throw a rock at him.  If he comes close hit a stick.  Most dogs won't fight a human being who appears to be willing to put up a fight.  (I did say most)



Yes all very good points and good things to know when confronted by a (seemingly) vicous dog. I've found one good thing that helps (*sometimes*   ) and that is to yell "NO!" to the dog. I've had dogs run up to me snarling and (looking like they're) ready to bite and I turn on them and point and yell in that commanding tone "NO!" I've seen them stop and look confused because they've been conditioned to respond to that tone. Now not all will do that because they've been conditioned to respond to that tone from their owners (Alpha male/female leader). But this can work and is definitely worth a try as a first response.  
I think that is what people mean when a dog "senses fear" is via body posture but also we humans have the dullest noses on the planet. When we are afraid we emit phermones and other bodily odor clues that signify our fear (or other emotions). Dogs being one of the most keenest noses on the planet (i.e. a bloodhound can smell something like 1 part per 10 million or some crazy number like that ) have noses that will pick up on the scent we unknowingly and instinctively, uncontrollably put out. So yeah a dog will and can smell fear. That's why sometimes when some folks are intimidated by even a small dog the little one won't back away because it is picking that up. 
Sargent Mac made some very good points and offers some good tips. 
Know your enemy is a vital defense tactic, Sun Tzu taught that, and we as Martial Artists should live and breathe that, among other things. 
All in all I still won't give a dog the unconditional trust that I've known many people to have. Even a well trained dog can go against it's conditioning, it's happened.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 30, 2004)

Hey Sarge! Is this the sign in front of your house?? :lol:


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## Kamaria Annina (Dec 30, 2004)

Well, I suppose I've had my share of dogs.  I would personally never hurt a dog, no matter whether it was trying to rip off my head or not.  I don't see the need for it in the family I've been raised in.  I've grown up with rottweilers, and mine is quite heavier than I am, and he has tried to be the 'alpha' dog in the house, by jumping, attacting, etc.  Most he has ever gotten off of me was a small scratch with his claw.

 However, I don't agree with giving a dog something else to bite at.  If a dog is going to bite you, their instinct is on you, not anything else.  And most likely it'll be at the throat.  (Believe me I've been their as a kid )  If anything, cover your face, AND your throat.  And DO NOT run, dog's chase after people who run.


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## LARS (Dec 31, 2004)

Woof, Woof
Surviving a Dog Attack


As a result of a vicious dog attack here in Victoria not to long ago, I decided to do some research on what I could share with my students should they be confronted with a dog attack.  Although there was lots of information on the Internet about this topic (some urban myth), I decided to personally speak with three experts in the field; Sgt Jim Simpson (an ex K-9 handler with our department), and his wife Erin who is a professional civilian K-9 trainer (including protection work) with many many years of experience, as well as one of our animal control officers here in the city, and this is what they had to share with me, combined with some information that I found on the Internet, which they confirmed as desirable:

1)	Although when faced with a threatening dog our first instinct is to run, this is something that we do not want to do, why????? , Because it will cause the dogs prey drive to kick in thus further inviting an attack. 

2)	Do not talk to the dog in a way that will reveal your own anxiety or stress/fear ( i.e nice doggie, its okay,  thats a nice puppy) this will often add fuel to the fire.  Instead, remain very calm; appear confident or better yet intimidating.  Do not provoke, but present yourself as a force not to mess with.  If the dog challenges, challenge back. If the dog continues to move towards you, move at him aggressively shouting no, sit, down, go home.  All commands that most dogs have heard and that may work to your advantage.  By moving towards the dog you are far better prepared for an attack than if your were running away. 

3)	If the dog does not move forward, move away from a threatening dog, walk backwards for an extended distance, and then turn and walk in the direction that you were intending, constantly checking over your shoulder to ensure the dog is not following.

4)	If you can grab an improvised weapon such as a stick, use it like a spear rather than swinging it like a bat, due to the fact that many dogs will be able to evade an arcing swing. Target the throat and ram it in if possible.  Also some dogs will retreat if you bend down as if picking us a stone and going through all the motions of throwing it at the dogor actually do wing one at him.

5)	If you have time to remove a jacket or sweater dont wrap it around your arm, but keep it in your hands to throw over the dogs head and face as they attack.  Another option for a jacket was to unzip it, open the jacket out with both hands, (making yourself look much much bigger) and again move aggressively towards the dog thus becoming the attacker.

6)	If the dog latches on, use a weapon such as EDC knife (cutting across throat) or strike the dog across the bridge of the nose, but if you cant do either, really work your thumb and fingers around the dogs throat and squeeze, you can cut of their air supply and cause them real stress

7)	Most, but not all, dogs that are showing aggression, especially if hackles are up, are actually much weaker than they appear and will back down if abruptly challenged.  If the dog is a genuinely strong dog, which will not be scared off, then one must ENGAGE in the fight.  Stop thinking about escaping and think about overpowering taking on the attitude that if someones going down, it WILL be the dog.


A part of my research for the above posting was to actually quarry for a police dog (100 plus pounds of goal oriented teeth and muscle); 

·	Several times wearing a full bite suit, 
·	Several times wearing just a bite sleeve, and
·	Several times the handler placed a special type of muzzle on the dog where it could not bite me, but still allowed the dog the ability to attack (me not wearing any bite suit) 

Even though I was protected from the dog via a bite suit or bite sleeve, Survival Stress Reaction and most of its effects to the body clicked in upon the dog being sent in to attack, but like any other reality based training, the more familiar I got with how the dog would attack, the better I was able to manage SSR to some degree.  Some of the things I empirically experienced:

·	When a dog that size hits, it hits like a freight train and unless you have a good foot base, you will likely be knocked to the ground.  Thus another reason not to run away from an attacking dog
·	When the dog takes hold, it will shake and tug violently not unlike a shark (this is one reason why I now call police dogs land sharks)
·	If running away, the dog will usually go after the legs and or buttocks, but if facing the dog it will usually take the closest arm.  Again another reason to not run away, and if facing the dog, to keep your strong side back thus protecting your strongest attributes/tools
·	Going after the eyes was challenging at best to do, due to the violent shaking and tugging actions that the dog WILL make. I found it easier (but still very challenging) to after the eyes if the dog took an arm, but if it took a leg , hitting the top of the nasal bone was the only viable target 
·	If the dog broke hold, it would immediately re-engage the closest target it could sink its teeth into until the handler gave the command to out.


After speaking to the experts, I learned that most dogs are not goal oriented and attacked trained, and it is because of this fact that the recommendations in my first posting will likely work on most breeds of dogs.   To emphasize the points of being aggressive and looking bigger, our ERT team leader has shared with me that there has been a number of calls that they have attended where there was supposed to be a vicious trained attack dog (including Pit Bulls), but upon entry, just making lots of noise and being very aggressive was enough to send all these dogs (up to this point in time) to high tail it out of Dodge with their tail tucked between their hind legs.  

If, however, you are faced with a professionally trained protection dog that is goal oriented, they will engage with rage no matter how much noise you make, or how intimidating or big you make yourself look.  In fact, these types of dogs are specifically trained to ignore these factors through operant conditioning.  Thank God these types of dogs are few and far between.  Most dogs will attack from a fear base rather than a confident base thus the reason for my original posting.


Darren


Ps: some of the B******** being passed of as defences against an attacking dog that I found on the Internet are pure fantasy (ie wrap your legs around the dog and squeeze).  This became even more apparent after having a real dog chew on you like a milk bone.  Food for thought, excuse the pun !!!!!!


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## MA-Caver (Dec 31, 2004)

Darren, thank you for that. Those are most excellent points and tips. Not really too much to add.  
I have experienced myself with "for-real" attacks and was (LUCKY) enough to manage the animal in a way not to get bitten. One was a motivated German Shepard and yes I DID wrap my legs around the animal and squeezed... all the while smacking the b*stard on the nose with one hand and holding it's neck/throat with another. 
The dog fought back, hard and I then realized that he was trying to get away. Let him go and he took off yip-ing pretty loud. Either it was him getting his ribcage crushed or my smacking his nose as hard as I could or both but it changed his mind. 
Another attack I recall was this long-haired yellowish dog (attack at night) that charged after I passed the walk way to the house, I was on the sidewalk and he still felt I was intruding on his territory. Chased me into the street he did but by then my knife was out and cocked back ready to stab. I was yelling NO to him as well which got him to hesitate. Again (LUCKY ME) the owner heard me shouting at the dog and came out and called the animal off. He and I exchanged (hot) words and I won out because a cop showed up. Since he saw me in the street (my knife was descreetly hidden) and the owner holding off a barking dog... 

Being attacked by a snarling fast moving animal is scary (I'll even admit to that) and those TEETH give the impression of a great deal of damage should they connect to skin... YOUR skin.  Being (mentally) prepared and knowing (subconciously) what to do on top of MA training (this* is* a MA forum is it not?) will help out. 
And remember it's just a dog.


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## Floating Egg (Jan 1, 2005)

Anyone have any experiences with the Fila Brasileiro?


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## MA-Caver (Jan 1, 2005)

Floating Egg said:
			
		

> Anyone have any experiences with the Fila Brasileiro?


AKA Brazilian Mastiff ... uhh nope and don't want to either... except to play catch! That's a pretty stout looking dog for sure.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 1, 2005)

A little story..

First let me say that I'm a dog lover and have two beautiful well-trained Rottweilers. I have owned Rotties for 20 years. The following incident happened to a friend of mine recently.. he lives in a rural home and has chickens.. they started to vanish a few at a time and something was eating them. One evening he heard commotions and grabbed his 12 GA shotgun loaded with 00 magnum buckshot and went out there. That's a load of 15 .33 caliber lead pellets. He found a Harlequin Great Dane breaking down the chicken wire to get at the chickens. H had 3 left to show you what the situation was like (he started out with 15) well I would have found another way to deal with it (being conversant in Canine) but my buddy has little dog experience, a small boy and not too aggressive wife and so he took aim and hit the Dane broadside with that magnum load. The Dane rolled once and got up ready for action.. he fired two more times to put it down. Few humans would have survived the first round. So if any of you folks think a large aggressive dog is an easy kill think again. It's better to learn about dog behavior so as to ward off or avoid encounters in the first place. I personally have faced off numerous aggressive dogs such as Rottweilers and they do read body language. A good staff or stout walking stick can adjust their intent if you use it to warn them. Most dogs will not attack a confident adult human unless they are guard trained or abused. There are a few breeds I do not trust such as the pit Bull, however, they were specifically bred to fight to the death in pits for "sport".


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 3, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> A little story..
> 
> First let me say that I'm a dog lover and have two beautiful well-trained Rottweilers. I have owned Rotties for 20 years. The following incident happened to a friend of mine recently.. he lives in a rural home and has chickens.. they started to vanish a few at a time and something was eating them. One evening he heard commotions and grabbed his 12 GA shotgun loaded with 00 magnum buckshot and went out there. That's a load of 15 .33 caliber lead pellets. He found a Harlequin Great Dane breaking down the chicken wire to get at the chickens. H had 3 left to show you what the situation was like (he started out with 15) well I would have found another way to deal with it (being conversant in Canine) but my buddy has little dog experience, a small boy and not too aggressive wife and so he took aim and hit the Dane broadside with that magnum load. The Dane rolled once and got up ready for action.. he fired two more times to put it down. Few humans would have survived the first round. So if any of you folks think a large aggressive dog is an easy kill think again. It's better to learn about dog behavior so as to ward off or avoid encounters in the first place. I personally have faced off numerous aggressive dogs such as Rottweilers and they do read body language. A good staff or stout walking stick can adjust their intent if you use it to warn them. Most dogs will not attack a confident adult human unless they are guard trained or abused. There are a few breeds I do not trust such as the pit Bull, however, they were specifically bred to fight to the death in pits for "sport".


You assessment is correct.  I personally witnessed a large pitbull male take a .40 calibre round to the head and two shots of double 00 buck to the head, before finally being dispatched with double 00 buck to the heart.  It's best to keep in mind that the back of the head is the primary target area for a quick kill on a dog, as it hits the brain stem.  The frontal bone on large headed dogs such as pitbulls and rottweillers can actually deflect rounds.  If you are shooting a dog that is advancing on you, shooting just below the neck can drop them quicker than a shot to the frontal part of the head as it will hit the far less protected heart, resulting in a nearly instant incapacitation (I say nearly, because animals can still operate for a few more seconds even when hit in the heart.)  The same goes for a dog attacking someone else and you have a side shot.  Shoot just behind the front shoulder blade.  If you have a knife and have to defend yourself, stab in the threat area, and try to hit the large artery in the neck.  Again, avoid the situation is best, but as a woman in San Francisco could attest if she were still alive, idiot owners do exist who allow dangerous dogs to roam free.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 6, 2005)

sgtmac,

Great minds think alike (grin) 

You are totally correct on this thread. Let me tell a short story about "small" dogs. which was related to me by my protection-dog trainer some years ago..

A criminal was intent on entering a security zone around a business (No doubt for robbery) The are was protected at night by an "area protection" dog. These dogs are chosen and trained to attack virtually anything in their area, as you have to try hard to get past the chain link fence and razor tape. The bad guy had a 12 GA shotgun with buckshot, the dog was a 60 lb German shepard, apparently sleeping peacefully in it's "hooch". The BG must have thought the area unprotected or he figured he could take out the dog with the shotgun if it responded. She did, attacking the BG and the BG fired and hit the dog with OO buck, rolling the dog, who got right back up in a heartbeat and mauled the BG badly, leaving him with over 120 stitches. Then she died from loss of blood. Too bad the hospital can't turn criminals aside, or that security dogs can't carry (lol) 

To repeat an old refrain: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog".

Canines, especially the more powerful breeds, are way more powerful and dynamic for their size/weight than a human, even "sleeper" humans. It pays to respect them or you'll get one heck of an unpleasant surprise. A 40 lb pit bull can mangle a strong man before he is stopped, they just hang on and chew until they bite thru or die. Breeds like Mastiffs and Rotties are VERY pain tolerant, my first male Rottie had bone cancer and hid the pain until his ancle swelled up and he almost could not walk.. we had no idea he was unwell. What a brave fellow he was, he scared the be-heckemus out of BGs for 10 years and was my lady's bodyguard.

One more note: If anyone thinks a small animal cannot be disproportionately powerful for it's size, you need to look into Wolverines. They are so powerful and aggressive that the sometimes brace off against 1400 lb grizzly bears, and sometimes WIN. Adult Wolverines weigh an average of 35-40 lbs!


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## MA-Caver (Jan 11, 2005)

Interesting... one of the reasons why I love educational television more than any other.  Was watching a program on Animal Planet called: Extreme Biters! They were doing a top ten and had Dogs ranking at #4. They said that there are at present 50 million dogs in the U.S. alone and that 17 people die each year (on average) from attacking dogs. 
Another interesting thing is that more dog psychology is understood, in the fact that when a dog bites it can be trained not to except in the case where blood is drawn. Then the animal becomes hopeless to train. However; the program continued to go on about how vets are able to anesthesize a biting dog and file down it's cainines top and bottom and the dog wakes up more mellow because it realizes that it can no longer be a threat.  
It got me to thinking that it's a better solution/option to the problem biting dog than just using euthanasia, that is if the owner is wanting to keep the animal, for various reasons.


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## Adept (Jan 11, 2005)

An local couples son recently passed away, and all the really had left of him was his much loved dog. They really loved this dog. They left it on its leash out the front of the local general store one day (I live in a tiny rural town). While it was there, a woman came inside all worked up claiming the dog had bitten her. No blood was drawn, and this was an extremely well natured dog, but the woman was a lawyer and had the court order the animal to be put down.

 It was a very cruel and heartless thing to do. I firmly believe that if the dog did snap at her, it was more her fault than the dogs.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 11, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> An local couples son recently passed away, and all the really had left of him was his much loved dog. They really loved this dog. They left it on its leash out the front of the local general store one day (I live in a tiny rural town). While it was there, a woman came inside all worked up claiming the dog had bitten her. No blood was drawn, and this was an extremely well natured dog, but the woman was a lawyer and had the court order the animal to be put down.
> 
> It was a very cruel and heartless thing to do. I firmly believe that if the dog did snap at her, it was more her fault than the dogs.



I wonder if she was related to Miss Gulch who stiffly rides her bicycle to the Gale farm in order to retrieve Toto. She intends on "taking him to the sheriff and make sure he's destroyed" because he bit her on the leg.  from the Wizard of Oz?


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 11, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> You miss the point. A trained dog with a responsible owner won't be around you. It's the untrained dog that some idiot lets run wild that's the problem. I don't let strangers pet, snuggle, kiss or otherwise interact with my dogs. I only let acquantances do so in a controlled environment with me present. I know what my dogs are capable of, so I control every aspect of their lives. It's the "Untrained" family pet that bites people. My dogs don't bite people at random because I don't allow them too. I'm the alpha and I decide who gets bit, not my dogs.


Thank you. My trained Rotties have never bitten anyone but the trainer thru a bite sleeve. However they have chased away and intimidated several street creeps over the years, keeping the peace wherever they go, and have been wonderful family friends and good with children. In fact one day I was reloading in the back room, it was early morning and I had only the unlocked screen door as a barrier in front of the house (I forgot to lock it) .. I heard a young child giggling.. I ran into the living room to find my protection trained male Rottie licking a little girl in the face as she giggled! She lived across the street and had escaped and just decided to "drop by".  I should have locked the screen door of course but this independently shows that trained to *protect* does not necessarily make a dog *vicious.*


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## aplonis (Jan 22, 2006)

Back in the Navy I had a close friend, one Alan Milne, who was a corporal in the RAF. He was a dog trainer.  I used to watch them suit up and be attacked by dogs at the direction of handlers.

He informed me as how none of them would work with any breed of dog whom they could not personally subdue if need be. Hence no police department anywhere works with pit bulls.

So aside from pit bulls, who bite and tear without ever letting go, most dogs can be defeated by a non-panicked human. Most dogs bite and let go. The once serious dog bite I ever got was from a german shepherd who did just that. I was so surprised, as he darted in from nowhere (on his own! not as directed by police or anybody) that I quite failed to defend against it.

But had he faced me down from in front, I should not have been afraid. A dog is very fast but has only a single weapon. Full grown people are taller, heaver and not quite as fast...but possesed of four weapons at minimum: hands and feet. Five if you want to count teeth.

Kick a dog in the head hard enough to break a board and he will concuss as easily as any human. His eyes suffer from finger jabs the same as either yours or mine. With the strength of your two arms you can snap his forelegs as easily as a stick of equivalent size. You can certainly dislocate any of his knee  (?) joints. A dog's ribs are thinner than yours or mine. I got mine broken by a rabbit punch once. A dog's shold stave in no less easily.

If you happen to carry a cane then you can easily sweep the forelegs. I'd bet dollars to donuts they'll both snap in two. I just this year fended of a large vicious dog with a cane just by poking at his face without ever doing him any real harm.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 22, 2006)

aplonis said:
			
		

> Back in the Navy I had a close friend, one Alan Milne, who was a corporal in the RAF. He was a dog trainer. I used to watch them suit up and be attacked by dogs at the direction of handlers.
> 
> He informed me as how none of them would work with any breed of dog whom they could not personally subdue if need be. Hence no police department anywhere works with pit bulls.
> 
> ...


 I hate to disagree, but as a former K9 handler, I can assure that police K9's do not 'bite and let go'.  I've worked with Belgian Malinois and German Shepherds, and many of the dogs i've worked with will crush the bones in your arms and legs, and will continue to hang on quite longer than you would think.  

Attached is a pretty good video of some Belgian Malinois working with, I believe, a French anti-terrorist team.  Watch it and see if you think you would be able to kick these dogs in the head, or if you think they 'let go'.  

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/policedogs.html

I happen to know of several police K9's who were shot, and continued to fight.  I know of one who was hit in the head with a pipe, and proceeded to put the burglar who hit him in the hospital with some pretty severe injuries.  Anyone who believes they are just go out and fight with a trained dog, bare handed, and simply 'take him out' is deluding themselves.  If you're barehanded, you better be pretty fast and pretty strong.  My suggestion?  Use a weapon, preferrably a shotgun.

Fortunately, truly rank trained dogs are not encountered on the street.  The are not allowed to wander free.  Those dogs that most people get bit by, are someone's junkyard dog, which are notoriously weak nerved, and easy to bluff, despite their show of bravado.


p.s. the Belgian Malinois in the above video weight between 60 and 80 pounds.


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## aplonis (Jan 22, 2006)

I wrote my prior post late at night and was not sufficiently clear. Having watched them train for many an hour I did know that the RAF police dogs were trained to bite and not let go.

However, I was also informed that trained attack dogs will eventually turn upon their trainer at some point. And any change of trainer after that may expect...eventually...the same. It is a natural dog behavior...to test his place in the "nipping order" of his pack.

The trainer must then expect to "communicate" in no uncertain terms that he is pack leader and not the dog. Alan said more than once that such behavoir was entirely to be expected. He was in particular waiting for it to happen with his own, recently reassigned, animal. He had to wait for the dog to choose the moment and address only "that" behavior so as to not inadvertantly train any slightest degree of submissiveness into the dog for everything else about the work.

There no modern breed of dog whose forelegs will not break when struck full force by a hickory cane launched from the hip. Nor one which will not concuss when similarly struck in the head. If the trainer sends his dog in against someone armed with a hickory cane, then he is as much at fault for the animal's forthcoming injury as the intended bite victim.

Two dogs, on the other hand, make a pack of sorts. One in front and one behind...then you are at a severe disadvantage. On that point I would strongly agree. But as for one dog. I can well understand how a professional dog trainer would wish to propagate the public image of the "invincible attack dog" working solo.

Alan Milne used to come visit us with his dog at the mine shop in MacRihanish and comment as how, should he ever actually encounter an IRA terrorist out in the magazine he'd come to us for protection. It was a running joke on account of we were all the time playing around with improvised weapons: shuriken cut out from hammered-flat banding corners; a custom two-stage blowgun which would stick sharpened coat-hanger-wire darts into a brick wall; that sort of silly bugger goofing around while standing watch on weekend nights.


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## celtic_crippler (Jan 22, 2006)

I don't think any real thought needs to go into defending against a single dog. I have found that a good swift kick usually deters any biting....or a slug from my S&W .45. 

I'm not advocating cruelty to animals. I love 'em and have pets of my own. I believe most bites are brought on by people rather than being the dogs fault. Either because the person was messing with the dog or its owner, or because the owner did not discipline the dog or in fact trained it to be mean. Either way...a person's to blame, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put a dogs welfare above my own or that of another person.


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## jdinca (Jan 22, 2006)

I've found a blast from a CO2 extinguisher works quite well. :zap:


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## CuongNhuka (Jan 22, 2006)

Hit it in the spot just below the neck and in between the shoulders. Basic affect is the same as getting kicked in the solar plexus. Doggy go's backwards, and might have some troubles moving for awhile. Also (if you can) take your hands and push up from right about where the collar is. If you push up untill there front paws are in the air and have your fingers on the side of the neck, they cann't do much but wine and thrash. If you are some how behind them push down on spot between the shoulder blades, doggy goes down. And you can apply kazushi to a collar.
For awhile when ever I walked home from school there was this big mean dog that would try to jump the fence to attack me. So I got one of my dogs (they like to ruff house with each other) And kinda fiddled with somethings that I thought might help me if the dog ever managed to get over. Neither got hurt, I swear. The dog never jumped the fence, but got close a few times. I was planning on running, but I wanted a just incase thing. After all it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. Forgot who said that, it was someone hear though.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## baughman (Jan 22, 2006)

IN my twenties I del. pizzas for a couple of diffrent pizza companies. I was attacked a total of 6 times.  4 I got bit.  2 badly. the 2 that wernt that bad. The person at the door sad my favorite line." O he doesnt bite. " 
  My first attack I was 22 and it was a del in the country. I pulled up to house and got out and got almsot to porch when I heard a something coming fast from my left. I turned as I saw the rotwiler(sp) jump. I went to back up as all its weight got on me. It bit down hard on the end of my chin. One of its teeth broke off in my chin leaving a permant scar/hole were it didnt heal that well. lucky for me the owner was right there and got there 2 seconds after dog. required 17 stitches. He paid for medical and in all my stories I have never sued. Idiot me. 

  Now after this I have always been scared of big dogs. and if I see one on a del. I call owner to make sure he comes to car or has it tied up before I get out of car. 
  ( which brings up a funny side story) Pulled up to a house. great dane got on hood and was barking at me. as I looked at it threw the window. Customer kept saying he doesnt bite lol. I told the guy restrain the dog or I leave. he started cussing saying I was all kinds of dif body parts . so I left. customer was told to come get it ,or order somewere else when he called store afer I left.

  second and third time was small dogs. customer always gives same story " o he doesnt bite" first was just a nip on ankle that drew some good blood but was periferal(sp) damage. I knew the lady well so didnt get mad or anything. The third the little mutt , trashed my pant legs and required 6 stitches in calf. funny thing is this one hurt worse then first.

 the 4th and final bite one happened the last year I del pizza and is part of reason I gave up del pizzas. between bites and being the only del driver at my store that had worked over 2 years and had not been robed.

 I pulled up to the house as I usualy do and waited for a few seconds to make sure no dogs come flying out of anywere.  I got out of car and realize  door is about 100 feet from car. I get half way and notice a pitbull at screen door. I pause and realize That yes I am half way from car and door.( begin to get nerves at this moment) The dog starts barking like crazy and pushes on screen door. low and behold door opens and he comes screaming like a bullet at me. I believe in moments like this ppl do what is instinct more then what they train for. unless that training is so ingrained in there heads it becomes instinct. I used the only thing I had  as he came low at me I slamed the guys pizzas in a hot bag down on pit bulls head. The dog backed up and came agian trying to come over top of bag. he got front paws on bag and as I tried to lift up he bit onto my left hand pulling and tairing the skin of my middle finger back revealing the bone from base joint up to next joint on that finger. I pulled hand back which the doc believed made it worse ( no crap) For the next minute or 2 before owner got to him we circled like that.( well wasnt really cricling, was him attacking me using bag as shield) a cpl of times I slamed the bag down as he came low and he backed up. Agian I didnt sue but medical bill was big on that one so it was payed by him. Just sent it to insurance so I gues tech he was sued that way. Funny part was,as I layed in ER getting finger fixed the doc kept bending the skin back so I could see the bone. Kept saying he was amazed he didnt take my finger off. nerves was killed and i cant bend the finger for crap . have a crazy hard white scar all around finger which is kind of neat hehe( now) finger was nasty looking for a while after that one. 
  I guess the moral of my long winded story is. that it seems ppl adapt as stuff happens. What I mean is. If pitbull would have been my first attack would I be alive today? I dont know?  Same can be said for martial arts. I studied boxing and kickboxing when I was younger and wanted to fight. I believe the contact made me more prepared for attacks then most. 
   If you train in an art for the theory of def. Or the theory of dog attacks . You just dont know till it happens how u will react. you see it in boxing matches all the time. Its the guys first pro fight with the protective head gear off, and first time he gets taged he turns his back to opponent and covers head, but now he knows what it feels like and can react. same thing for me now. I prob. am to hyper sensitive to dogs now, but I also believe I have a better chance of living if I am attacked. In martial arts do I believe I am ready for a human attack? I dont know its all theory for now besides the full contact I had when I was younger. Now I just want an art for the beauty and to help me get in shape.


Yes I cant spell or punctuate worth crap( dang you american education system!)


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 22, 2006)

aplonis said:
			
		

> I wrote my prior post late at night and was not sufficiently clear. Having watched them train for many an hour I did know that the RAF police dogs were trained to bite and not let go.
> 
> However, I was also informed that trained attack dogs will eventually turn upon their trainer at some point. And any change of trainer after that may expect...eventually...the same. It is a natural dog behavior...to test his place in the "nipping order" of his pack.
> 
> The trainer must then expect to "communicate" in no uncertain terms that he is pack leader and not the dog. Alan said more than once that such behavoir was entirely to be expected. He was in particular waiting for it to happen with his own, recently reassigned, animal. He had to wait for the dog to choose the moment and address only "that" behavior so as to not inadvertantly train any slightest degree of submissiveness into the dog for everything else about the work.


 With that much you are correct.  Alpha behavior among working K9's is common, and it takes a certain rank drive in a dog to do that kind of work.  What's more, it requires a strong handler to work with that kind of dog.  However, the trick is to avoid situations where you end up with the dog gaining the upper-hand.  There is always the possibility, if you're careless, that the dog could seriously harm you.  However, dogs rarely attack in a predatory manner someone they perceive as being in their own pack.  In other words, the way the dog attacks it's handler is different than the manner it attacks someone else.  

Most handler/dog attacks are the result of a handler not paying attention, or not understanding how the dog thinks or reacts to certain situations.   Many of these dogs are food aggressive.  Myself, I have a pretty nasty scar on my forearm from an attack involving a deep mouth bite from a malinois.  I subsequently explained to him with a couple of pretty hard swings of a stout stick to the head, that biting me was the wrong behavior.  The reason it took two?  Because the first one just made him madder, and he came in for a second attack.  Most humans wouldn't have continued an assault after the blow I hit this dog with...some wouldn't have remained concious.  The sad part, however, is that he suffered for my mistake.  I knew he was food aggressive, and I made a very minor mistake, that had huge consequences.  

Had I not responded in that manner, however, i'd never been able to work with that dog again.   Once they win one encounter, they believe they are dominate.  



			
				aplonis said:
			
		

> There no modern breed of dog whose forelegs will not break when struck full force by a hickory cane launched from the hip. Nor one which will not concuss when similarly struck in the head. If the trainer sends his dog in against someone armed with a hickory cane, then he is as much at fault for the animal's forthcoming injury as the intended bite victim.


 Assuming you can hit the dog.  I'm willing to bet that you'll miss more often than not, especially on a Malinois, who are much faster and have much quicker reflexes than you could ever hope to.   Moreover, I know of one working German Shephered who got struck in the head with a pipe by a burglar he was sent in after.  The Shepherd subsequently preceeded to seperate the calf muscle on his leg from the rest of the leg, causing permanent injury.  Striking him in the head with the pipe only served to send him further in to fight drive.  



			
				aplonis said:
			
		

> Two dogs, on the other hand, make a pack of sorts. One in front and one behind...then you are at a severe disadvantage. On that point I would strongly agree. But as for one dog. I can well understand how a professional dog trainer would wish to propagate the public image of the "invincible attack dog" working solo.


 If you really want to test those theories, volunteer as a helper.  Let me know how it works out.   I mean that in all seriousness, i'd be interested in hearing your comments after you work with some truly rank dogs.  I'm certainly not saying many of them are invincible, as most working K9's are actually not well selection tested.  

The few truly rank dogs, however, are a wonder to see work.  Anyone who truly thinks they can fight them with ease, is operating under a false sense of their own invincibility.   

I wouldn't suggest it without a weapon, and i'd suggest carrying a knife in addition to the stick, because odd's are, you'll miss with the power point of the stick.  In that event, you'll simply have to sacrifice an arm, in order to cut the dog open.



			
				aplonis said:
			
		

> Alan Milne used to come visit us with his dog at the mine shop in MacRihanish and comment as how, should he ever actually encounter an IRA terrorist out in the magazine he'd come to us for protection. It was a running joke on account of we were all the time playing around with improvised weapons: shuriken cut out from hammered-flat banding corners; a custom two-stage blowgun which would stick sharpened coat-hanger-wire darts into a brick wall; that sort of silly bugger goofing around while standing watch on weekend nights.


 
In short, the average person isn't going to encounter the 1% dog.  Most dog attacks are the family mongrel, who's untrained but aggressive.  These sort of dogs run yelping at a good swift kick.  Many won't even attack unless you make the mistake of turning your back on them and running.  

However, believing that just because you can beat the local junk yard dog with a swift kick, you can take a truly rank working dog, is thinking because you can beat the local tough boxing at the Y you can take Roy Jones Jr.  It's a faulty sort of logic.

The advice on how to deal with dog attacks is good.  A good stout stick and a good sharp knife.....Unless you have a shotgun.


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## Neal (Feb 23, 2006)

While I'm new here, I was the United States Champion in French Ring Sport which is the French national military dog sport. I have also worked with quite a few of the local Police dept's with their K9's here in New jersey

There are few things things folks need to know about dogs that are specifically bred for this activity. They are very different dogs then the neighborhood bully.
 When a well trained dog is sent to attack at longer distances (30'-50'), we train the dogs to come in at full speed. If your timing isn't perfect (dogs run faster then humans and thus come in at faster speeds, so your timing must be adjusted for this reality)

Most dogs will run full speed and hit a spot in front of you roughly 5'-10' and then physically launch to take their bite. It is at this moment they select their target on your body. If you look into a dogs eyes at this point, he will be staring at the exact spot he intends to bite. Timing and experience at this piont is what enables good K9 trainers to teach the dog correct bite training (just like a MA needs to learn proper punching, kicking technique,) we train the dogs to "punch & crunch".  They will crunch down very hard with a full mouth bite as hard and thrash like a shark (fight drive is an inheritable genetic trait) If your timing isn't perfect, you will get bit at 30mph by a 90 lbs dog while getting knocked to the ground. We train dogs to target different areas of the body depending upon what is open. Yes we teach the dogs to aquire their targets based upon what is avalible and good dogs will do this. Unless you have specific K9 decoy training experience, even many of the best MA's timing won't be prepared for the K9's speed.

For most folks, I would say this: Be prepared to get bit. At this point you should block the dogs attack with your weak arm or leg. Once the dog is on the bite, scoop their eye balls out with your fingers. For silent kills, take the bite and simultaneously slice the dogs throat with a knife. There are multiple strategies on getting passed area guard dogs who have not yet engaged but stand between you and your mission.

Because of their speed and training, you can try and hit an incoming dog, but unless your very lucky, the chances are not in your favor unless you have had specific K9 decoy training experience.

I love taking tough guys out to K9 training. We put them in the bite suit and unless you have actually experienced a well bred/trained combat dog in realtime previously, it's like getting hit from a trained fighter for the first time in your life. Nothing prepares you for the power they bring. 

Many people go into shock because of the severity of the overwhelming physical intensity of the attack and the severity of the wounds.


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## Neal (Feb 23, 2006)

My last run-on sentence infers people who come down to train K9's in the bite suit go into shock from their wounds! LOL Nope thats not true. The last run-on sentence was directed at real-time bites where the dogs go real time.
Sorry for the confusion


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## KenpoTex (Jan 8, 2009)

bumped due to recent discussions


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## MA-Caver (Jan 8, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> bumped due to recent discussions


 Why not sticky it/them... seems the subject is bound to come up again sooner or later. :asian: 

Or at least merge the two that you just bumped.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 8, 2009)

oops...didn't realize they were in different forums, though they were both in Gen. SD.  oh well...


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