# Do karate schools in the US not teach dirty fighting any more or do you have to move to Japan?



## moonhill99 (Aug 26, 2015)

I hear karate schools in US no longer teach dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on.

That to get this you have to move to Japan or find a Okinawan type Karate school in US.

I know many Karate schools out side of Japan in the US no longer teach take downs, throws and holds.

That karate schools in US are for kids and teens now and sport schools and tournaments not self defense.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 27, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I hear karate schools in US no longer teach dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on.
> 
> That to get this you have to move to Japan or find a Okinawan type Karate school in US.
> 
> ...


First of all, if the guy you are fighting knows how to fight your extreme tactics aren't going to help you. You must match or work around his timing with real training of the basics. Secondly, look around a little more. You will find exactly what you are asking for locally.


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## EddieCyrax (Aug 27, 2015)

Must be listening to the wrong people.....


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 27, 2015)

Just to make things perfectly clear:

No. There is absolutely no truth to the idea that Karate dojos in the U.S., as a whole, do not teach strikes to the groin, knees, throat, etc.

You can doubtless find individual  schools that only focus on tournament-legal techniques, but I don't know whether there are a higher-percentage of such schools in the U.S. than Japan. In any case, it's certainly not a universal practice.


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## donald1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Dirty fighting?  Ive never heard that term in my goju class however strikes like some of those you mention are used. I know saifa kata (goju ryu) uses a groin strike and seisan(goju ryu) uses strike to throat.  And also seiyunchin (goju ryu) uses elbow strikes.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Aug 29, 2015)

Okinawan Karate is a lot less popular than its Japanese counterpart. I personally practice and teach these "dirty" fighting techniques. In my eyes there is no such thing as "dirty" fighting. I don't believe in physical violence unless it is your last option. At that point you are fighting for survival and I will go to any measure to make sure I make it home to my family over my opponent. I train in the same manner, sparring is fun, but it doesn't teach all the essential parts you need for actual combat. As a result I put more emphasis on developing my body to deliver small surface strikes as opposed to using my fists.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 29, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just to make things perfectly clear:
> 
> No. There is absolutely no truth to the idea that Karate dojos in the U.S., as a whole, do not teach strikes to the groin, knees, throat, etc.
> 
> You can doubtless find individual  schools that only focus on tournament-legal techniques, but I don't know whether there are a higher-percentage of such schools in the U.S. than Japan. In any case, it's certainly not a universal practice.




I wonder if Krav Maga emphasizes more dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on than say karate.

Or is it the family friendly karate schools for kids and teens and the sports and tournament that the problem. And if one found self defense karate school for adults you learn all that?

Or is not a emphasizes like Krav Maga?


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## Blindside (Aug 30, 2015)

Look up the various kenpo schools, very much a "dirty fighting karate" if that is what you are looking for.  Perhaps an overemphasis on everything you seem to be looking for.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 30, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Look up the various kenpo schools, very much a "dirty fighting karate" if that is what you are looking for.  Perhaps an overemphasis on everything you seem to be looking for.



Or he could just go for Ameridote.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 31, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Look up the various kenpo schools, very much a "dirty fighting karate" if that is what you are looking for.  Perhaps an overemphasis on everything you seem to be looking for.



Blindside yes from what I read Kenpo karate comes a bit more closer than other karate in how the human body was built to fight.

Fancy high kicks ,spinning kicks,jumping kicks, karate hard stances is not something natural people are born with or genetic instinct on evolution in this is how we fight.

The fancy high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks so on look awesome but it only work if the attacker is not in close range.

So if the attacker is coming after you than you have short time to execute it and if the attacker does not go down and get in close range at that point you have to use hand strike than kick.

Many of the Kenpo karate kicking is kicks below the face. Mostly kicks to chest, stomach and balls.

Where other karate is really big on kicks to face and throat. Lots of round kicks,high kicks ,spinning kicks,jumping kicks so on.

The Kenpo karate stances is bit more natural than the other karate stances that have hard stances.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 1, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Blindside yes from what I read Kenpo karate comes a bit more closer than other karate in how the human body was built to fight.
> 
> Fancy high kicks ,spinning kicks,jumping kicks, karate hard stances is not something natural people are born with or genetic instinct on evolution in this is how we fight.
> 
> ...


Chest height kicks are new.


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## moonhill99 (Sep 1, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Chest height kicks are new.



So what is wrong that Kenpo karate have kicks to the chest?

And in 5 years from now they add high kicks to the person face or spinning kicks?


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 1, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> So what is wrong that Kenpo karate have kicks to the chest?
> 
> And in 5 years from now they add high kicks to the person face or spinning kicks?


Everything, and nothing. The techniques didn't start out that way, but I've been told those guys were just terrible kickers, and just lacked the training needed, to pull them off. I, however, believe differently. It is just your point of view or mine. Nobody has to be right.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 1, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> So what is wrong that Kenpo karate have kicks to the chest?
> 
> And in 5 years from now they add high kicks to the person face or spinning kicks?


The five years from now thing happened many moons ago.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 1, 2015)

So anyways, I will use simple math to describe the dilemma. Let's say you want to be fast, and you have a "Chain" of moves you want to perform. Now, does swapping out faster moves with slower, more powerful ones, make that chain any faster?


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## EddieCyrax (Sep 2, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Blindside yes from what I read Kenpo karate comes a bit more closer than other karate in how the human body was built to fight.
> 
> Fancy high kicks ,spinning kicks,jumping kicks, karate hard stances is not something natural people are born with or genetic instinct on evolution in this is how we fight.
> 
> ...



Not sure what you have read about Kempo, but it does contain much of what you say it doesnt have.  In addition, a spinning back kick can be a close ranged attack.  The target is lower the closer your attacker is.  I assure you a spinning back kick to the groin can be pulled off at very close range to devastating effect.  (Youtube Chuck Lindell...He specificly discusses this at one of his seminars)

Granted Kempo is a balanced art and combines equal hand/foot strikes. Kempo is about using the right tools at the appropriate timing/spacing. (As are most MAs)  This said, my instructor can knock your head clean off your shoulders with a round-house kick at surprisingly close range.


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## moonhill99 (Sep 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Everything, and nothing. The techniques didn't start out that way, but I've been told those guys were just terrible kickers, and just lacked the training needed, to pull them off. I, however, believe differently. It is just your point of view or mine. Nobody has to be right.



Okay I thought by adding in high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and other fancy kicks it would make it Kenpo karate less efficient. Why because like you said Kenpo karate was for people not good at kicking.

And by adding this into it that it would make Kenpo karate less efficient.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 3, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Okay I thought by adding in high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and other fancy kicks it would make it Kenpo karate less efficient. Why because like you said Kenpo karate was for people not good at kicking.
> 
> And by adding this into it that it would make Kenpo karate less efficient.


I was pointing out that kickers think that, but not me.


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## moonhill99 (Sep 3, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I was pointing out that kickers think that, but not me.



So you feel for Kenpo karate to be more efficient there should be no high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and other fancy kicks?

That the high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and other fancy kicks make Kenpo karate less efficient. And the two do not go well together.


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## EddieCyrax (Sep 3, 2015)

not sure exactly where you are going with efficiency....

Kempo has high, spinning, and jump kicks within it.  Obviously there is a risk reward balance with some moves, especially on the street.  

Key is to know and understand you situation then act accordingly...

Many of the advanced kicks also build flexibility, body mechanics, and control.  These are good training tools, but not always best for the street.

Can I ask....what style/MA do you train in?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 3, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> So you feel for Kenpo karate to be more efficient there should be no high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and other fancy kicks?
> 
> That the high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and other fancy kicks make Kenpo karate less efficient. And the two do not go well together.



Those are not "fancy" kicks by moist peoples definition. You'll see all of them used regularly in competition.


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## reeskm (Sep 4, 2015)

totally agree with dirty dog. you can kick to three levels just like you can with hand techniques. how does the old saying go? those that say it can't be done or who are not doing it shouldn't interrupt the one who is.

i've trained in Japan, and at the end of my small time there the black belts asked me "so what was the difference between training here or at home?" and the best I could come up with at the time was "actually... it's really the same". They taught me some very nice full contact stuff as it was a kyokushin dojo - stuff that I consider nice and "nasty". Well, it was 90% humidity and 30 degees celsius in the dojo that day, but you just persevere... I can't decide if the 10 degree dojang with 20% humidity and cracked dry skin is worse or better! And after all, training should be that way shouldn't it?

On a lighter note, Canada is closer, and the excange rate is a 25% discount for you my yankee friends! So if you don't want to fly all the way to Japan, come train at my dojang! we teach all that stuff the OP wants to know. And I have no problem at all admitting karate or taekwondo, or any other practitioners.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Those are not "fancy" kicks by moist peoples definition. You'll see all of them used regularly in competition.


Who are these moist people you speak of?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Who are these moist people you speak of?



Why, the people doing these fancy kicks, of course! Moist, damp, sweaty... Pick your word. 

I usually do a better job of proofreading my posts. I'll be more careful in the future. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 4, 2015)

EddieCyrax said:


> Can I ask....what style/MA do you train in?


Based on previous conversations, unless I'm mistaken, moonhill99 has still not begun training in any martial art. He seems to be content to read about them, watch videos, and theorize.


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## Manny (Sep 4, 2015)

In every single dojo I step in the dirty methods of strikes you mentiones are taught, but are used in a controled way in self defense only.
El Manny


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 5, 2015)

The poster that started the Kempo topic couldn't be more wrong. First off if you are using any style of Karate based in Japan that is your first mistake. Real Karate comes from Okinawa. You will rarely if ever see the Okinawans teaching kicks higher than the stomach. Unless they break your leg then kick you in the face. Japanese Karate is watered down, and targeted at being taught to mass amounts of people. Okinawan Karate doesn't share this methodology. Okinawan Karate even to this day is kept very low key and classes are small. We use high very natural stances. We rely of trapping and close quarters attacks as our bread and butter. To even categorize Okinawan and Japanese Karate together is foolish. Japanese Karate, like many other Japanese ryuha has been developed for competition. Okinawan still focused on actual self defense.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Based on previous conversations, unless I'm mistaken, moonhill99 has still not begun training in any martial art. He seems to be content to read about them, watch videos, *and theorize.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I think he's more living in a fantasy.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 5, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> The poster that started the Kempo topic couldn't be more wrong. First off if you are using any style of Karate based in Japan that is your first mistake. Real Karate comes from Okinawa. You will rarely if ever see the Okinawans teaching kicks higher than the stomach. Unless they break your leg then kick you in the face. Japanese Karate is watered down, and targeted at being taught to mass amounts of people. Okinawan Karate doesn't share this methodology. Okinawan Karate even to this day is kept very low key and classes are small. We use high very natural stances. We rely of trapping and close quarters attacks as our bread and butter. To even categorize Okinawan and Japanese Karate together is foolish. Japanese Karate, like many other Japanese ryuha has been developed for competition. Okinawan still focused on actual self defense.


Well, at least we know where to send people, now.


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## tigercrane (Sep 5, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> The poster that started the Kempo topic couldn't be more wrong. First off if you are using any style of Karate based in Japan that is your first mistake. Real Karate comes from Okinawa. You will rarely if ever see the Okinawans teaching kicks higher than the stomach. Unless they break your leg then kick you in the face. Japanese Karate is watered down, and targeted at being taught to mass amounts of people. Okinawan Karate doesn't share this methodology. Okinawan Karate even to this day is kept very low key and classes are small. We use high very natural stances. We rely of trapping and close quarters attacks as our bread and butter. To even categorize Okinawan and Japanese Karate together is foolish. Japanese Karate, like many other Japanese ryuha has been developed for competition. Okinawan still focused on actual self defense.



Respectfully, I'd hate to rain on your parade but would like to emphasize this: Okinawan karate is way watered down nowadays as well. If interested, read one of my rather lengthy posts *here*. This was the post in regards to efficacy of kata, etc.

I have trained for about year and a half at one dojo (no name will be mentioned) in Northen Tampa, which is home to Isshin-ryu style karate. They have two types of curriculums: one for kids (and teens) and another one for adults. 

At this dojo, the kids (and teens) are learning kata and train for tournaments that take place twice or three times a year. They do not learn realistic self-defense techniques to help develop skills. That is what's wrong with Karate in general. You enter the dojo waiting room, you see the faces of soccer-moms eagerly waiting to take a snapshot of their child while they train and you understand why the kids will never evolve into true martial artists. This is simply not needed and it is not what they are paying for. Parents are paying for their children to go to tournaments, bring trophies home and collect belts along the way. And dojos do cater to what the market demands - that is to stay open.

Now, getting back to the thread, a true Okinawan karate is a hard work and a lot of sweat, bruises, sprained ankles, dislocated joints and a lot of hurting. The poster is saying something about dirty fighting, which is rather amusing because there is no such definition. When it comes to ending the fight, it is important to deliver a good strike at a vital point and do it swiftly because there may never be another chance. 

If a powerfully delivered *tsuki* to the neck is considered dirty in self-defense situation, then I suppose it is, but it is nothing special except it will probably kill the opponent. What about kick to the groin? There is nothing special to it unless it is a kick aimed at the lower right or lower left area of the pelvis where one kick could disrupt the flow of blood over femoral artery and break the pelvic bone. Is it a dirty kick? Not really! 

Having said that, even these fundamental basics as properly delivered punches and kicks are not being taught at Okinawan karate dojos anymore. BTW I had a talk with Sensei who is Roku Dan and is a descendant of Sensei Mitchem, one of the several marines that trained in Okinawa under Soke Tatsuo Shimabuku and he knows the real stuff. He trained for almost 30 years but he is simply not teaching any of this to his students.


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## MatsumuraKarate (Sep 5, 2015)

tigercrane said:


> Respectfully, I'd hate to rain on your parade but would like to emphasize this: Okinawan karate is way watered down nowadays as well. If interested, read one of my rather lengthy posts *here*. This was the post in regards to efficacy of kata, etc.
> 
> I have trained for about year and a half at one dojo (no name will be mentioned) in Northen Tampa, which is home to Isshin-ryu style karate. They have two types of curriculums: one for kids (and teens) and another one for adults.
> 
> ...


That is just one school. I don't not teach children because I feel that don't yet have the maturity to learn  things that can really hurt people. Yes a lot of Okinawan karate is watered down.  But Japanese Karate is a watered down version of the real thing. That is fact. The karate Funakoshi practiced and taught were both very different. He was one of the first to learn how to cash in on Karate


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## Hanzou (Sep 5, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> The poster that started the Kempo topic couldn't be more wrong. First off if you are using any style of Karate based in Japan that is your first mistake. Real Karate comes from Okinawa. You will rarely if ever see the Okinawans teaching kicks higher than the stomach. Unless they break your leg then kick you in the face. Japanese Karate is watered down, and targeted at being taught to mass amounts of people. Okinawan Karate doesn't share this methodology. Okinawan Karate even to this day is kept very low key and classes are small. We use high very natural stances. We rely of trapping and close quarters attacks as our bread and butter. To even categorize Okinawan and Japanese Karate together is foolish. Japanese Karate, like many other Japanese ryuha has been developed for competition. Okinawan still focused on actual self defense.



I suppose it was only a matter of time before Okinawan stylists started pulling rank on Japanese stylists.


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## tigercrane (Sep 5, 2015)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> That is just one school. I don't not teach children because I feel that don't yet have the maturity to learn  things that can really hurt people. Yes a lot of Okinawan karate is watered down.  But Japanese Karate is a watered down version of the real thing. That is fact. The karate Funakoshi practiced and taught were both very different. He was one of the first to learn how to cash in on Karate



I agree. The original poster has asked if it was necessary to go to Okinawa (Japan) for training. My answer would be no. There are good masters in the US and in Europe. They are hard to find, but they are out there.


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## Koshiki (Oct 8, 2015)

It's only dirty if it takes place in the mud and goes to the ground. Otherwise is just fighting.

I usually hold the position that the basis of every martial art, including sports, is to stack the deck in your favour as much as is ethical, legal, and practical. There is cheating in a sport, there is no cheating _outside_ of a sport. Rules, yes, cheating no, hence, no "dirty" fighting.

That said, relying on groin grabs, eye-rakes, small-joint and the like isn't going to win the day.


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## Star Dragon (Oct 8, 2015)

Southern Chinese styles tend to focus on vital target and vital point strikes, that includes White Crane and Taiji. It also spread out to the Okinawan and Hawaiian Kempo styles. These are all excellent for self-defence *if taught accordingly*.

Japanese Karate styles are mostly sports. The forms have been altered to look more pleasing at tournaments but their true interpretation (bunkai) is often unknown or neglected. The sparring taught is a far cry from realistic fighting.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

Star Dragon said:


> Southern Chinese styles tend to focus on vital target and vital point strikes, that includes White Crane and Taiji. It also spread out to the Okinawan and Hawaiian Kempo styles. These are all excellent for self-defence *if taught accordingly*.
> 
> *Japanese Karate styles are mostly sports. The forms have been altered to look more pleasing at tournaments but their true interpretation (bunkai) is often unknown or neglected. The sparring taught is a far cry from realistic fighting*.



A rather large generalisation there. There is also now a wider appreciation of *kata *with the bunkai being taught in many places*. S*parring can be for sport but can also be for self defence.
There is always a temptation to assume that your experience or what you see in one place is the norm when it's not.


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## Star Dragon (Oct 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> A rather large generalisation there. There is also now a wider appreciation of *kata *with the bunkai being taught in many places*. S*parring can be for sport but can also be for self defence.
> There is always a temptation to assume that your experience or what you see in one place is the norm when it's not.



I do hope that with the efforts of pioneering reformers like Tetsuhiko Asai and Werner Lind, among others, some things are changing for the better in the Karate world. In truth, their reforms are a return to the roots.

However, I believe that what I have described is still the norm in Japanese Karate - but there can always be exceptions.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

Star Dragon said:


> However, I believe that what I have described is still the norm in Japanese Karate - but there can always be exceptions.



As I've said I believe you are generalising, how many countries have you visited and how many karate cubs/schools? How many organisations? Which styles are you talking about? To say Japanese 'karate' when karate is such a generic term anyway can be misleading. A lot of people say they are doing 'karate' but they aren't.


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## Buka (Oct 9, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I hear karate schools in US no longer teach dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on.
> 
> That to get this you have to move to Japan or find a Okinawan type Karate school in US.
> 
> ...



No dirty fighting at all, children under ten years old only, and we try not to hurt each others feelings. Oh, and we exchange Christmas cards a lot.

You should go to Okinawa and send us cool postcards.


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## Douglasmase (Oct 9, 2015)

I actually agree with your assessment on this topic for the most part.  Ultimately though it's up to the instructor. 

Most of my previous instructors deal with regulation rules in tournaments.  I understand they are in place to keep competitors safe. But that doesn't help in the streets. 

It wasn't until I found Krav Maga that I learned one simple rule,  "there are no rules when it comes to self defense. "  that being said my focus,  as an instructor is to teach my students, is to do what it takes.   So ultimately it is up to the instructor to get their head s around that. 

After all we practice martial arts,  a militaristic art.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

Douglasmase said:


> I actually agree with your assessment on this topic for the most part.  Ultimately though it's up to the instructor.
> 
> Most of my previous instructors deal with regulation rules in tournaments.  I understand they are in place to keep competitors safe. But that doesn't help in the streets.
> 
> ...




I have however seen Krav Maga which was basically useless, the instructor having taken an expensive one day course and come away with an 'instructor's diploma'.
In every style there's dross and there's good, stating that only one style is good and teaches self defence correctly is actually wrong. The trick is find a place that does what suits you, for whatever reason you want to train. Not everyone wants to learn to 'kill with one blow' so there's places to accommodate them, there are the ultra macho places that train in combats and are 'ex special forces', there's places for sport, there's places for very food self defence as well as some really pants self defence.
Just because people don't do what you like doing doesn't make them bad, it doesn't make your training to superior to theirs because they don't do what you do.


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## Star Dragon (Oct 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> As I've said I believe you are generalising, how many countries have you visited and how many karate cubs/schools? How many organisations? Which styles are you talking about? To say Japanese 'karate' when karate is such a generic term anyway can be misleading. A lot of people say they are doing 'karate' but they aren't.



No worries about that. I refer primarily to the big traditional Japanese styles like Shotokan, Wado-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shito-ryu, Kyokushinkai. I have personally trained in two of these. I visited a number of schools both in Europe and in Japan. Because I'm always curious about how others are doing things, I also watched loads of videos and read the text books of a number of styles.

My conclusion regarding the aforesaid styles (the way they are taught in Japan and nany other places) is that they don't emphasize self-defence. They don't practise much things like kakie, tuite, kyusho, all of which are essential to a true self-defence art. They specialize in long range fighting, the short range (so important in self-defence) is largely neglected, not to mention ground fighting. Sparring is designed for fighting with other practitioners of the same art. The fighting stance is impractical for "anything goes" altercations. And so on.

I am sure that there are _some_ Japanese style schools paying more attention to realistic self-defence, mostly restoring those aspects from the Okinawan origins and often breaking away from the main organizations.

The thing is that when Gichin Funakoshi imported Karate to the Japanese mainland, he deliberately stripped it from its combative aspects. His agenda was to popularize Karate as a method of physical and spiritual strengthening. Herein, he followed the example of his supporter Jigoro Kano, who had turned the self-defence art Jiu-jitsu into the modern sport Judo along similar lines. Eventually, Funakoshi's students  completed the transformation of Karate into a tournament sport, much to their master's dismay who hadn't planned to take things that far. The other styles imported to Japan followed the example set by Shotokan in their development there.

I already agreed that my statements are of a somewhat general nature. But they are not overly generalised, imo. If you can name and elaborate on a significant number of Japanese styles and/or schools that are strongly self-defence oriented, I would like to hear it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

So you haven't come across Iain Abernethy's work along with a good many pragmatic instructors who also concentrate on self defence rather than sport? An increasing number of karate clubs/schools here in the UK are working hard at self defence, I train Wado Ryu and certainly here self defence with and without Bunkai is a very big part of training. Many of the karate instructors here are part of the British Combat Association which specialises in self defence rather than sport. You will find on their club listings a lot of traditional karate clubs and instructors. I know that other martial arts organisations here also prioritise self defence.


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## Star Dragon (Oct 10, 2015)

Of course I know Iain Abernethy. In fact, I have most of his books. He is indeed one of those pioneers I mentioned who are bringing the self-defence in the Okinawan fashion back into Karate. However, most schools listed as members of the British Combat Association are not Karate schools. I still think that Karate dojos of that kind are rather rare. But they may be on the rise. And quality goes before quantity.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2015)

I did say that you would find karate schools in that list, I did not say that they were all karate schools. There are also a great many karate clubs and schools who also train self defence who aren't in that organisation  but if you are determined to be 'right' there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. You are entitled to your opinion of course but not your own facts. I know how many karate places here train self defence, more than enough to not label it rare of course but you obviously know better. I bid you goodnight and farewell.


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## Sojobo (Oct 11, 2015)

Speaking as a Wado-ka, I think we do have the so called "dirty" techniques (in other words realistic combative techniques) built in to our standard training model. Maybe they are not that immediately apparent - but they are there.

Of course, it is down to the individual instructor to realise this with his/her students (as it is with all ryu-ha).

But, on a very surface level - let's look at what Wado-ryu has...

A Naihanchi kata that (guess what) punches the throat!
A Naihanchi kata that is designed to develop short range, sharp, powerful movements.
A Seishan and Chinto Kata that are there to help students harness the energy from an inner circular stance - thus utilising the body's core (the hara if you know about these things) - rather than long range techniques.

A set of comprehensive paired Kata that are designed to develop:

Kuzushi
Ma-ai
Sei-chu-sen
Irimi
Atemi
Nage-waza
Ne-waza

Etc etc., this list goes on - as you would expect from a system that is based on a koryu jujutsu of feudal Japan.

However; Wado-ryu also has a history of producing some of the best WKF style fighters - and I don't think this is a mistake, I also don't think this sort of kumite is the dirty word that so seemed karate "purists" want to make it.

In my experience, the guys that compete in this code (and that includes me) - have a far better understanding of key principles like timing and distance. They have also put themselves under pressure - something that is key in a real life situation.

All that said, if I am asked whether what I teach is self defence...

My answer would be no.


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## Junbu (Feb 6, 2016)

Tez thank you for bring up bunkai I have never thought of fighting as dirty or clean the Yagyu style which I learn has low kicks due to the wearing of armor , we stick with 1600's era and I don't see what could change thru the years however a warrior takes what works and use it  Sojobo nice post


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## Emilee <3 (Feb 21, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> I hear karate schools in US no longer teach dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on.
> 
> That to get this you have to move to Japan or find a Okinawan type Karate school in US.
> 
> ...




We learn all that in my taekwondo class and more, including breaking someone's finger in half if they like to grab your shirt a lot.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Emilee <3 said:


> We learn all that in my taekwondo class and more, including breaking someone's finger in half if they like to grab your shirt a lot.


You can break a guys finger in half with your shirt?   That's a cool trick.   How do you do It?


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## Emilee <3 (Feb 21, 2016)

Steve said:


> You can break a guys finger in half with your shirt?   That's a cool trick.   How do you do It?



No, you don't use your shirt, sorry if the way I worded that was confusing! You know how some people like to grab other people by their shirts? If you have to defend against then you can grab their finger and break it in half. It can also prevent them from punching.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Emilee <3 said:


> No, you don't use your shirt, sorry if the way I worded that was confusing! You know how some people like to grab other people by their shirts? If you have to defend against then you can grab their finger and break it in half. It can also prevent them from punching.


Ah. Okay.


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## Whitespace (Feb 23, 2016)

I am a student and instructor of isshin-ryu karate. In my specific school we teach these techniques and as you say "dirty" fighting as one of our primary self defense techniques. There are schools that focus on the sparring side or sport side of karate witch focuses on scoring points rather than self defense. You will find mixed results with your thread here.


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## donald1 (Feb 24, 2016)

Steve said:


> You can break a guys finger in half with your shirt?   That's a cool trick.   How do you do It?


I dont know about tshirt but I remember my instructor saying to one of the students if your thumb gets caught on gi sleeve it could be broken (the chances if that happening are quite unlikly but technically is possible...)


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## Whitespace (Feb 24, 2016)

donald1 said:


> I dont know about tshirt but I remember my instructor saying to one of the students if your thumb gets caught on gi sleeve it could be broken (the chances if that happening are quite unlikly but technically is possible...)



That is quite possible. It has never happened to me or most of my students our Karate School has been around for over 20 years and in that time (I asked today) our main instructor told me that it was very possible and has happened to one of our students years ago.


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2016)

Getting the tip of your belt in the eye is possibly worse especially when you are sparring, sore eye, tears down your face, blurry vision, all very NOT GOOD.


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## Whitespace (Feb 24, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Getting the tip of your belt in the eye is possibly worse especially when you are sparring, sore eye, tears down your face, blurry vision, all very NOT GOOD.


Very true happens all the time too.


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## donald1 (Feb 24, 2016)

You people are going to make it impossible for me to sleep tonight... im going to be sitting there thinking *gasp* I dont want there belts poking my eyes! (Ill have to wear an eye patch and kids will make fun of me and call me a pirate... or some weirdo with an eye patch)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 24, 2016)

Emilee <3 said:


> No, you don't use your shirt, sorry if the way I worded that was confusing! You know how some people like to grab other people by their shirts? If you have to defend against then you can grab their finger and break it in half. It can also prevent them from punching.


That's impressive. I doubt I have the strength to just break someones finger in half. Twist/pull it and put them in a lot of pain, yeah, but I can't imagine breaking a finger that easily.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 24, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> That's impressive. I doubt I have the strength to just break someones finger in half. Twist/pull it and put them in a lot of pain, yeah, but I can't imagine breaking a finger that easily.



When people refer to breaking the finger in this manner, it's almost always dislocated, not broken. That doesn't require strength, just leverage.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 24, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> When people refer to breaking the finger in this manner, it's almost always dislocated, not broken. That doesn't require strength, just leverage.


That makes more sense. Had a different connotation in my head. I can see it, but don't ever think I'll try it out. Can't imagine a situation when there isn't a better option.


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## Tez3 (Feb 25, 2016)

donald1 said:


> You people are going to make it impossible for me to sleep tonight... im going to be sitting there thinking *gasp* I dont want there belts poking my eyes! (Ill have to wear an eye patch and kids will make fun of me and call me a pirate... or some weirdo with an eye patch)



Just to add to the belt scenario, when grappling my instructor ( a Judoka from an early age) goes north to south and makes sure the knot on the belt grinds into your face, he says it's a Judo trick.  He also is fond of choking people with their own Gi jackets or t shirts, he however shrugs down into his Gi jacket so you can't get a choke on.


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## twendkata71 (Feb 26, 2016)

I would say that if you are looking for styles that teach "dirty fighting techniques". ( which in my opinion there are no dirty fighting techniques when you are fighting for your life, just effective ones), kenpo is great for that, as well as Non sport oriented Okinawan styles(shorin ryu, Uechi ryu, Goju ryu). Most kata from traditional karate and modern karate styles have these techniques in there.


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## ozm8ey (Feb 28, 2016)

Here in Australia in my class they taught us a move which involves blocking then counter punching to the testicles. Its really effective but if someone attack you on the street you have every right to fight dirty


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 29, 2016)

If you want to learn dirty fighting then I suggest you try mud wrestling, you would get pretty dirty fighting in that.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 29, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Dirty fighting?  Ive never heard that term in my goju class however strikes like some of those you mention are used. I know saifa kata (goju ryu) uses a groin strike and seisan(goju ryu) uses strike to throat.  And also seiyunchin (goju ryu) uses elbow strikes.



I have kind of been trying to avoid posting in this thread.  The OP did ask specifically about Karate, and I am not nor ever have been a practitioner of Karate.  Closest being TKD for a short while. 

But to me, "Dirty Fighting" is an oxymoron.  In the Hapkido I studied, there certainly was no such thing.  We learned effective defensive techniques.  Many of them would dislocate joints, attack pressure points, throw opponents in not nice ways, and basically, give we students more than one way to defend against an attack against any part of our body.  While mostly defensive, we were taught ways to use some of our defenses in an offensive manner.  Nothing to do with dirty, just defensive survival.


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## Human Makiwara (Feb 29, 2016)

I study Uechi Ryu here in the good old US of A. We are taught nothing but things I wouldn't want to have done to me. It sounds like you have been looking into sport karate or taeqwondo schools. You will learn a sport if this is where you end up. Not that you couldn't defend yourself with these teachings it's just that they most likely won't be covering what you are looking for.


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## Zumorito (Aug 9, 2016)

They didn't teach any dirty fighting at my local Karate dojo, but then again, most of it's members are school children with their parents, so yeah...I stuck around just long enough to figure out I'd be better off with Krav Maga. I'm considering taking up Jujutsu too.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 9, 2016)

Zumorito said:


> They didn't teach any dirty fighting at my local Karate dojo, but then again, most of it's members are school children with their parents, so yeah...I stuck around just long enough to figure out I'd be better off with Krav Maga. I'm considering taking up Jujutsu too.


Everybody has an excuse for why they decided not to train. My favorite is, "I don't need to feel pain to know I am alive."


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## Juany118 (Aug 10, 2016)

MatsumuraKarate said:


> Okinawan Karate is a lot less popular than its Japanese counterpart. I personally practice and teach these "dirty" fighting techniques. In my eyes there is no such thing as "dirty" fighting. I don't believe in physical violence unless it is your last option. At that point you are fighting for survival and I will go to any measure to make sure I make it home to my family over my opponent. I train in the same manner, sparring is fun, but it doesn't teach all the essential parts you need for actual combat. As a result I put more emphasis on developing my body to deliver small surface strikes as opposed to using my fists.



I think this may define the difference.  Karate is a complicated mess, you have Karate-do (which is the product of ultra nationalist Japanese Leading up to WWII looking to instill Tradition and discipline to create obedient soldiers) then you have, for lack of a better term Karate-jutsu (the actual Karate born in Okinawa.) People have to remember Japanese and Okinawan are different over there and Karate didn't become "Japanese" until the 1920's

Sorry very tired and my Ryushinkan training (15+ years ago) is raising it's ugly head.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 5, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> I hear karate schools in US no longer teach dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on.
> 
> That to get this you have to move to Japan or find a Okinawan type Karate school in US.
> 
> ...



That would depend. One of the instructors at my dojo would sometimes teach us the techniques you described and in addition to some of the stuff you mentioned he would show us knees to the head. He said that the techniques he was teaching us, to use it in the street but not during sparring as they were too dangerous.


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## JP3 (Sep 5, 2016)

I agree with Tony. Personally, I'd say that nearly all karate schools teach, at some time, the things which "are against the rules," even if they are a sport-tournament training school only.  You have to show that stuff so the student can understand why it is against the rules.... because they are so dangerous.

I teach people "in here vs. out there." In here, we're at the dojo with our friends and training partners, and we don't want to hurt them because first, we like them, and second, we won't have anyone to train with next time.

But, out there, in the world, the simple things you do to keep things safe, you can simply elect not to do and render a technique very bad indeed.

Simple example is judo one-shoulder throw, ippon seoinage. In dojo, strike comes, evade, enter throw, turn hips hold up on uke's arm, they fall safely on the mat, grin and get back up.

In parking lot attacked by bad person, strike comes, evade, enter throw, pop hips to send opponent  up and over, back out while opponent in the air and let go, let them see how they do against gravity, they groan and generally do not get up.


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## elder999 (Sep 5, 2016)

JP3 said:


> I
> In parking lot attacked by bad person, strike comes, evade, enter throw, pop hips to send opponent  up and over, back out while opponent in the air and let go, let them see how they do against gravity, they groan and generally do not get up.




Nah.

In parking lot, attacked by bad person, strike comes, evade and elbow in midsection to enter throw, pop hips to send opponent up and over,  dislocate opponent's elbow and pop hips,drive opponent's head into parking lot pavement.

No "groan." No get up.


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## Jenna (Sep 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Nah.
> 
> In parking lot, attacked by bad person, strike comes, evade and elbow in midsection to enter throw, pop hips to send opponent up and over,  dislocate opponent's elbow and pop hips,drive opponent's head into parking lot pavement.
> 
> No "groan." No get up.


I like yours better.. though the 'bad person'? you are certain this was not the guy just bringing your drive thru order out to you?? Hmm.. it does not look like he is capable of speaking to confirm for us!  x


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## frank raud (Sep 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Nah.
> 
> In parking lot, attacked by bad person, strike comes, evade and elbow in midsection to enter throw, pop hips to send opponent up and over,  dislocate opponent's elbow and pop hips,drive opponent's head into parking lot pavement.
> 
> No "groan." No get up.


And this is why you don't mess with old people.


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## JP3 (Sep 5, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Nah.
> 
> In parking lot, attacked by bad person, strike comes, evade and elbow in midsection to enter throw, pop hips to send opponent up and over,  dislocate opponent's elbow and pop hips,drive opponent's head into parking lot pavement.
> 
> No "groan." No get up.


True that.

In my example there was a surveillance/security camera, you see.... changes the dynamic just a bit.

LOL! For Jenna's reply...


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## Buka (Sep 6, 2016)

The old cliché goes, "If you find yourself in a fair fight.....your tactics suck."

I think there's some important truth in that.


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## Justin Chang (Sep 6, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> I wonder if Krav Maga emphasizes more dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on than say karate.
> 
> Or is it the family friendly karate schools for kids and teens and the sports and tournament that the problem. And if one found self defense karate school for adults you learn all that?
> 
> Or is not a emphasizes like Krav Maga?


I heard a saying once "no groin strike, no Krav Maga!" meaning many of their techniques start with a groin strike to throw you off balance, distract your attention, loosen a hold.  Same could be said about boxing the ears, striking the knees, stomping a foot, etc.  Having learned some Karate in a few different styles I can say first hand that these types of techniques were definitely taught, but it was not enphasized as much as in Krav.


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## KangTsai (Sep 6, 2016)

Look around, you will find something you like. I'm pretty sure there isn't that much digression/variation between Japanese and other teachings of karate, rather more on the local scale. 

And I've never heard of strangling, knees and elbows to the face being dirty. However karate point fighting rules are strict, which my tell something.


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## elder999 (Sep 6, 2016)

JP3 said:


> True that.
> 
> In my example there was a surveillance/security camera, you see.... changes the dynamic just a bit.
> 
> LOL! For Jenna's reply...



Yeah, as paranoid as I am, I kinda have to be well aware of surveillance cameras....and everyone having one.

Those cameras would only capture a man in his late middle age, falling to one knee under the weight of his attacker.....just sayin'


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## JP3 (Sep 9, 2016)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, as paranoid as I am, I kinda have to be well aware of surveillance cameras....and everyone having one.
> 
> Those cameras would only capture a man in his late middle age, falling to one knee under the weight of his attacker.....just sayin'


.... you don't fool me a bit with that routine....

"falling to one knee under the weight of his attacker".... nah....

Hope the local constabulary judoka doesn't see the video and scry a perfect single-knee-drop seoinage....

Then again, judoka being judoka... he'd probably just grin and say something like, "old dude got lucky, falling like that huh."


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## elder999 (Sep 10, 2016)

JP3 said:


> .... you don't fool me a bit with that routine....
> 
> "falling to one knee under the weight of his attacker".... nah....
> 
> ...



This actually happened to me in Denver-I've told the story here more than once, I think-caught a kid trying to steal my motorcycle at around 4 AM (on my way to work) and he came at me with the screwdriver he was using-it went just like that, except that by the time the  cops arrived, he'd woken up and was begging me to let him go-those laughing cops? Called him an ambulance.....


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## JP3 (Sep 12, 2016)

It's a smart guy who doesn't ignore that the silent 3rd guy in any fight is Mr. G.

G = 9.2m(s*s) since I cant superscript a 2.


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## Ademadis (Sep 14, 2016)

Before uni broke up for Summer my Sensei dedicated the last three or four sessions specifically to ground work. (Mounts, holds, escapes etc.) and normally when we have a newcomer to the Dojo we all practice basic self-defence techniques that rely more on 'dirty tactics' as they're the ones most likely to be used.

I think it's more down to the individual style and requirement of the club, if it's more competition based you're going to learn something a lot more traditional that something like my club, which has a high turnover of lots of different Karate styles.

Also bump for Twendkata71's post, I've recently studied Chinte which includes eye/nose gouging. I think that's more what you're after 

(Hi btw ;P)


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