# Chi-sau Vs. Lat Sau- What is your opinion?



## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 8, 2012)

Hiya there folks! I've been doing Wing Tsun for 9 Years. I've had the opprotunity to train with a different WT, WC, VC, VT guys throughout my few short years in the art. I've noticed that if you get down to it, many people focus on different aspects of training. Some people it seems ONLY do chi-sau (poon-sau, lok-sau, gwoh-sau (guo-sau)). And some people really focus on the lat-sau (be it chinese or european).<br><br>I was just wondering on what you like, why and what you find more useful for your training?<br><br>Just in case we have some some people who really don't understand my question, I'll explain in a little bit more detail. We will start with chi-sau.<br><br><br>Chi-sau is known as "sticky-hands" worldwide. But there are different aspects to the practice of it. Chi-sau is really an all encompassing term for sticky hand practice. Poon-sau and lok-sau are just known as "rolling-arms" basically, it just means practicing the actual roll of chi-sau with minimal effort emphasized on attack and defense. This kind of practice is dedicated to getting you to feel your opponent better and to train your anti-synaptic reflexes. Poon-sau and Lok-sau (when done correctly), should be done slow with emphasis being placed on making sure your pressure is forward. It was explained to me as "softley trying to make your fingertips touch your partners shirt".<br><br>Gwoh-sau (aka Guo-sau/Gor-sau) is basically the beefed up version of Chi-sau. It is where you pretty much just go at it. You attack and defend at different levels of speed and strength to try to unbalance your opponent or strike them. It is like sparring while still conforming to the chi-sau rules.<br><br>I could go into the chi-sau motto's, but really, I don't feel as if that would really help anyone's understanding, and it can be quite the laborious task to explain, however if there is a demand for it, just let me know and I'll oblige the best that I can.<br><br>Lat-sau is known as "free-handed-fighting". There are two types of Lat-sau: European Lat-sau (German Lat-sau) and Chinese Lat-sau.<br><br>European lat-sau was developed in Germany and it is performed by putting one of your legs against your partners while cycling through pak-da (pak-sau-punch) and or wu-da. There are many in's and outs to the cycle, starting usually with an off-speed punch or a boxer jab.<br><br>Chinese lat-sau is basically just sparring, but it usually starts out with some pre-set's so you can get the feel for it. You stand about one step away from your opponent and you both step in and bridge and the fight is on. The other older version of chinese lat-sau is where both opponents stand close enough to touch wrists and then start to fight at the first movement. (That last version has been romantisized for the movies alot and you can see bruce lee do it in the "return of the dragon".)<br><br>So folks, newly armed with that valuable information, what do you like? What do you feel is most important in your training? And if you have more questions feel free to ask, speculate or just say hi.<br><br>All the best my friends!<br><br>Jeff (Sifu Panda)


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi there, I am a WT guy too, I feel like form work, chi sau, lat sau, applications all lead into themselves.. some are more fun.. depending on ones mood and predilection. They all lead into each other. I feel like a nice balanced practice is best. 
What are your thoughts?


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 8, 2012)

Nabakatsu said:


> Hi there, I am a WT guy too, I feel like form work, chi sau, lat sau, applications all lead into themselves.. some are more fun.. depending on ones mood and predilection. They all lead into each other. I feel like a nice balanced practice is best.
> What are your thoughts?



Form work is essential. But many WT/WC instructors don't teach what needs to be taught... And that is application of every movement. Did anyone know that lap-sau is actually in SNT, and chum-kiu? And to further my thoughts on this, chi-sau isn't very fun, but it needs to be done. It's hard and sometimes a very laborious process! You need to go slow and FEEL your way through everything. Gwoh-sau is where you cut loose and throw it all together, and lat-sau is what you do to simulate fights. Basically, lat-sau is sparring that is controlled.

And I heartily concur with your assesment; Balanced practice is the best... Well for me at any rate. But not everyone believes this, and to me that is a shame, but hey everyone has their ways!

All the best and thanks for the reply!

Jeff


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## Danny T (Sep 8, 2012)

Call it what ever you wish. In order to be able to function at real time with real pressure as in a real attack one Must work in a free spar action. There must be some constraints as individuals learn and should be released as they get better. Form is a part of the puzzle, Drills are part of the puzzle, strength and conditioning is a part of the puzzle, application potential is a part, and so is free sparring. All are important to understand Timing, Range, Power, Speed, application of attacks, and how they support the technique potentials. 

I do not believe one needs to know application for every movement. They do need to understand the principles driving the movements and that there is potential application of technique throughout every part of movement/motion based upon the relationship of position, direction, and pressure; and that is something the chi sao actions help develop.

Danny T


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 8, 2012)

Danny T said:


> Call it what ever you wish. In order to be able to function at real time with real pressure as in a real attack one Must work in a free spar action. There must be some constraints as individuals learn and should be released as they get better. Form is a part of the puzzle, Drills are part of the puzzle, strength and conditioning is a part of the puzzle, application potential is a part, and so is free sparring. All are important to understand Timing, Range, Power, Speed, application of attacks, and how they support the technique potentials.
> 
> I do not believe one needs to know application for every movement. They do need to understand the principles driving the movements and that there is potential application of technique throughout every part of movement/motion based upon the relationship of position, direction, and pressure; and that is something the chi sao actions help develop.
> 
> Danny T



I believe that a student should learn all the applications, because if he doesn't know them, you can't flow. I've sparred with many people that don't know how to lap-sau correctly and I can exploit every single time. Application is a part of the comprehension stage. You can't understand something and not know how to apply it. You can't say that knowing less application makes you understand the principals better. That has a big whole right in the center of the logic. Yes I concur, people need to do some more studying on the principals and the APPLICATION of the principals. But chi-sau isn't going to help much if you don't know how to position your body. 

Thanks for your comment, I really do apperciate all input from all the collective WT/WC/VT/VC families! 

All the best,

Jeff


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## cwk (Sep 8, 2012)

I spend less time training chi sao, lat sao,etc than I do on free sparring (by that I mean starting from an unbridged position)
For me, chi sao is just training for that moment when your attack is checked by your opponent and you need to find a way around to continue striking/ controlling. Finding the correct angles and timing for entering from the outside is a completely different skill set. Both need to be trained. I'd say more focus on free sparring if you want to compete or spar with other styles, more focus on bridged drills/sparring if you're training more for self defense as the gap is usually already closed by the attacker.
But like I said, both need to be trained, as well as other ranges,like starting of in the clinch.
Just my tuppence worth.

edit- I forgot to mention the importance of good pad/mit work. This is something I picked up from my muay thai training and something I feel more wing chun schools should adopt and adapt to their style. Having someone who knows how to hold the pads properly and throwing attacks at you so you can counter and vice-versa  really improves a students ability to land strikes with power on a moving opponent and helps with the "flinch" reaction and also the problem of switching off after the first shot lands. With practice, the pad work can flow from outside range, into chi sao range, then clinch and then back out again.


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## Danny T (Sep 8, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> I believe that a student should learn all the applications, because if he doesn't know them, you can't flow. I've sparred with many people that don't know how to lap-sau correctly and I can exploit every single time. Application is a part of the comprehension stage. You can't understand something and not know how to apply it. You can't say that knowing less application makes you understand the principals better. That has a big whole right in the center of the logic. Yes I concur, people need to do some more studying on the principals and the APPLICATION of the principals. But chi-sau isn't going to help much if you don't know how to position your body.



Knowing the structures, the Why of the structures, the movements for those structures there are many applications. May be I am just a slower learner and therefore don't even attempt to learn and know 'all the possible applications'. I find that within sparring by utilizing movements into the proper structures applications simple are there.

Take the tan sao structure and the movement associated with it. How many different applications are available based upon the position and range? A deflection, a jamming of the opponent's movement, an arm break, an off balancing of the opponent's center or even all the above at any one time? Where is the tao sao structure being presented? On the forearm, the upper arm, the collar bone, the neck? All different applications. How about the Jum Sao structure moving to Gong Sao structure? A deflection, a jamming, throw, a takedown, a shoulder lock? Many possible applications.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 8, 2012)

cwk said:


> I spend less time training chi sao, lat sao,etc than I do on free sparring (by that I mean starting from an unbridged position)
> For me, chi sao is just training for that moment when your attack is checked by your opponent and you need to find a way around to continue striking/ controlling. Finding the correct angles and timing for entering from the outside is a completely different skill set. Both need to be trained. I'd say more focus on free sparring if you want to compete or spar with other styles, more focus on bridged drills/sparring if you're training more for self defense as the gap is usually already closed by the attacker.
> But like I said, both need to be trained, as well as other ranges,like starting of in the clinch.
> Just my tuppence worth.
> ...



I agree with more sparring, and when I say lat-sau, I just mean sparring. Put on pads if you want, but your out there to do business. If i'm going to put any protective gear on I like to keep it simple. Head mask, gloves, and cup. And then just go at it. That is the way to train what your using. But chi-sau is essential to get those reactions top-notch.

In my opinion, chi-sau is the building block to lat-sau. I really don't like drills or pre-set motions at all. Any actual fight doesn't have these things and I refuse to trian anyone with set patterns. To me it doesn't work. I'll train people in chi-sau sections so they learn the material. But as soon as they comprehend the section I move them on to applications immeadiately. As soon as they can apply it in chi-sau, then they can try it in lat-sau. I see too many people trying to apply techniques in which they don't even know the basic mechanics, let alone the theory behind when/where it should be used.

Theory (and footwork) is the most disreguarded aspect of WT nowadays, and I'm getting a little tired of it. But that is another thread... or two. Matter of fact, I'm gonna start two more threads and ask what people thing. Stay tuned folks!

(And thanks for the reply CWK!)

All the best,

Jeff


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## yak sao (Sep 9, 2012)

The German lat sau (GLS) programs are very good at getting the new WT student up and running. WT fights at a range where most people are uncomfortable being in, the GLS puts you right there and you learn to deal with it right away.
The new student is learning these various steps and hand positions, all very foreign to him, the GLS is a way of immediately pressure testing these new structures and helps to eliminate flaws early on in the new student.

Many the new student who walks into a MA school is wanting to learn how to defend themselves. They want to know how to deal with a boxer, a kicker, a grappler; the new student is filled with  so many "what ifs"..."what if he grabs me, what if he throws a hook punch"....and on and on. The GLS addresses this and helps to lay the what if demon to rest  early in the WT students training, now they are ready to focus on chi sao.

If chi sau is taught too soon, it seems like a whole lot of theory and not very substantive to the new student looking in. It doesn't seem to address their what ifs. By putting the lat sao first and then bringing in chi sau, students are now able to see the whys and hows of chi sau more clearly and reap its benefits.


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## yak sao (Sep 9, 2012)

As for Chinese lat sau, or what we call Hong Kong lat sau, it is great at teaching how to close the distance in a safe and explosive manner.
The GLS and the chi sau sections are great at teaching how to be effective at close range. The HKLS deals with the pesky problem of actually getting into that range efectively without getting your clock cleaned.

Oh, and pardon my manners,  Jeff, welcome to the forum.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 9, 2012)

Danny T.,

You are very correct sir. I forget that sometimes other systems did not have what I did. We have certain programs that spell out all the applications you need to learn for a certain rank (well the system I used to be associated with). And I meant that every program has a certain number of applications that you need to learn before you can move on to the next. You have just made me re-evaluate the way I will try to explain that in the future. SNT (SLT) is something you never stop learning. There are so many things in there that you can't cover in just a few months. But those techniques are there! Not hidden, just waiting for the chance to be explained. And its not the speed at which you learn, it is the understanding you gain that dictates how effective you are with this. Now I am quite the quick learner. I have had very few troubles learning a new techniques when it has been presented to me. I often felt as if I was being held back, but this just led to greater understanding of the technique, so I've always had a win-win situation in my training!

Again thanks for the post sir!

All the best,

Jeff


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 9, 2012)

Bah, my webpage had to recover, and I lost all the information I had down.

The gist of what I was saying was:

GLS has some answers but not all. I don't personally like it. I would rather address all those issues in lat-sau. I keep a notebook for students when they ask questions and address those questions at the end of the week and hand out copies of my notes. Kinda like a cheat sheet, or at least a platform for them to gain understanding. I try to imbibe people I work with with the idea that you should think for yourself. Listen to your sifu, and take into account what he/she says, but always try techniques out for yourself; Your sifu can't know everything, he/she is only one person. Try the techniques out and see what conclusions you come to. Everybody has a different brand of WT/WC that works for them. Don't be sucked into the sections, let your WT/WC work for you.

Suffice it to say that your whole post was awesome, thanks for taking the time, but I really need to get going right this second! Have a good one and thanks again sir!

All the best,

Jeff


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Bah, my webpage had to recover, and I lost all the information I had down. The gist of what I was saying was: GLS has some answers but not all. I don't personally like it.... Jeff



That's 'cause y'all ain't tried TLS ..._Texas_ Lat Sau! I'm currently associated with a group based in Austin that's run by my old _Si-dai_ who is very knowledgeable in both the Hong Kong and German teaching systems.

The way he integrates the stuff makes for a very logical training system. I learned the old way from LT in the 80's and back then we didn't have no stinkin' Lat-Sau "sections". But I now see that properly used, they are a very worthwhile instructional tool.


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## yak sao (Sep 10, 2012)

what approach do you guys take to lat sau?

In my group we tend to do a blend of HK lat sau, German lat sau and EBMAS lat sau.


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## Thunder Foot (Sep 10, 2012)

Sorry for my ignorance, but what are lat sau "sections"? I don't think I've ever come across these in my experience...


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 10, 2012)

geezer said:


> That's 'cause y'all ain't tried TLS ..._Texas_ Lat Sau! I'm currently associated with a group based in Austin that's run by my old _Si-dai_ who is very knowledgeable in both the Hong Kong and German teaching systems.
> 
> The way he integrates the stuff makes for a very logical training system. I learned the old way from LT in the 80's and back then we didn't have no stinkin' Lat-Sau "sections". But I now see that properly used, they are a very worthwhile instructional tool.



I started out in 2003 in the San Antonio Wing Tsun Academy under Sifu Will Parker, so I am intimately familiar with "Texas" lat-sau lol. And all the guys down there. I daresay you know Mike Adams (From Austin, not chicago lol) and "Sweaty" Mike Yarbrough!

Well it's nice to see some other texas guys on here. You need to go check out Alamo City Wing Tsun with Sifu Glenn Tillman, and Sifu Ram De Pena (My WT Family). They are the nicest individuals you will ever meet and very highly skilled martial artists! In my honest opinion, you can't find better instruction in Texas (Or in your case someone to train with!) 

All the best bubba,

Jeff


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2012)

_Yak,_ we do pretty mush the same thing. A mix. Some old LT drills, some from KK's EWTO (which is pretty much the root of the EBMAS stuff) and some specifically NVTO modifications. After all, the Lat-Sau "sets" are just drills, not classic forms, so you can modify them as needed. Drills need to be changed up often, or they just end up teaching you to move in predictable patterns ...and that's _not_ good.

_Thunderfoot, _no problem. Every different organization has different terminology, or maybe they use the same terms to mean different things. Lat-sau literally means "free-hand" and many use the term to mean light, free-sparring. But here, we are talking about a series of patterned drills involving a continuous flow of attack and defenses, ...kind of like chi-sau, but starting appart and not always maintaining stick. These drills include standard techniques like punch to punch, tan-da, pak-da, fook da, gaun-da, lap-da, elbows, etc. ...all linked in loosely choreographed flow.

Steps and kicks may be added for a more dynamic exchange, and eventually, all the "sets" are scrambled, and the attacks and defenses become more random and sponteineous, and the sets become like light to medium contact free-sparring. Gloves and a mouthguard are helpful at this stage. 

Either way, this kind of training can help reinforce good quality movement while providing a bridge to either Chi-Sau for more refined technique, or to heavier sparring for more non-compliant "realism".


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 10, 2012)

Thunder Foot said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but what are lat sau "sections"? I don't think I've ever come across these in my experience...



It's no big deal. I'm going to try to explain things in a way so that everybody can understand, since I have no clue how much Wing Tsun culture you know, so take no offense if my explanations are a bit over the top.

Lat-sau is literally translated as "Free-handed-fighting" (techniques). You start lat-sau your very first day by doing "basic-reactions". There are 3 types of lat-sau. The two most common are Hong Kong (chinses) Lat-sau and German (European) Lat-sau.

HK lat-sau is where two opponents stand in the on-guard position and attack eachother (and that is where lat-sau started, and same with the sections).

German lat-sau is where you interlock your front foot and both partners are in the sheung-ma (front-stance) and they run a continuous motion of pak-da (pak-sau-punch). German lat-sau also has sections.

Leung Ting formalized the Wing Tsun system into sections (This includes chi-sau, dummy (and dummy chi-sau), and weapons sections. There is also lap(grappling hand)-sau, bong(wing arm)-sau and Quat(Wiping hand)-sau drills. There are a few more, like the sheung-kuen (double puch) drill from the 4th Section of Chi-sau, and the fak-sau (whisking arm (also known as "Dong-Sau")) drill from 6th section Chi-sau.

HK Lat-sau is where the sections originated so Ill just explain those:

When you start learning to bridge the gap, you need to learn how to enter your opponents guard. So you start out by stepping to your opponent and performing a pak-da (pak-sau-punch). The next step is where the person defending learns to re-pak (do a reverse pak-da)... Then aggresor learns how to do pak-jut-da (pak-sau/jut(jerking hand)-da).. The cycle goes on from there going immeadiatly into a tan-da (Palm up-punch) and/or a Kwan-sau (rotating arms)... And so on and so forth.

Basically it is a systemized approach to learning how to apply chi-sau in real fighting. These lat-sau "sections" just kinda initiate the student into the practical application world and seperates them from their chi-sau form. You still want the stickiness you find in chi-sau. You want to stick to your opponent, but you can't just start chi-sauing someone in combat.

Lat-sau develops the two main fighting principles in wing-tsun (in my opinion). #1 Ya-mo-bo-fat (stance inserting step techniques), unlike most Wing Chun schools, LT WingTsun teaches you to step inbetween your opponents feet everytime whilst practicing so you are more prone to do it in real life (train like you fight). and principle #2 is called Bik-bo-tip-da (Sticking to the enemy with stepping punches), it is also known as magnectic force. You are drawn to your opponent as if by a magnet so as to not let him get away and recover. Bik-bo-tip-da is best embodied in JKD in the "Straight-Blast", just chasing your enemy with chain punches. As a JKD practitioner these techniques really shouldn't be foreign to you. But the theories and principles wouldn't be there as Bruce Lee never learned any advanced theorectical knowledge of WC/WT. 

Lat-sau is basically sparring with control. It is (coupled with chi-sau) the core of Wing Tsun training. You can't learn to utilize sticking principals if you don't practice chi-sau, and you can't learn fighting application if you don't practice lat-sau.

I hope that was a well detailed answer that satisfied your question, but if I did by chance miss anything, or you just have more questions, feel free to fire back!

All the best, and happy training!

Jeff


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> ...They are the nicest individuals you will ever meet and very highly skilled martial artists! In my honest opinion, you can't find better instruction in Texas (Or in your case someone to train with!)
> 
> All the best bubba,
> 
> Jeff



Lotta good folks in Texas. It's a shame that sometimes organizational politics keep them apart. Same problem here in AZ. IMHO life's too short for that kinda garbage.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 10, 2012)

And I forgot to tag on the end of my reply the third side of lat-sau...

Lat-sau can just be straight up sparring. It is unchoreographed, intense and brutal. I put on pads to do this, but some people don't (and most didn't used to). 

You suit up, and go at it. Testing your WT skill against your contemporaries.

Your using all your accumulated knowledge to exchange techniques with your partner. lol.

It's basically like the difference between Poon-sau (rolling arms) and gwoh-sau (chi-sau where you just go at it).

I hope all this information helps you understand what I was trying to get at, even if I was a bit long-winded in my reply!

Again, all the best ya'll!

Jeff


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## yak sao (Sep 10, 2012)

Thunder Foot said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but what are lat sau "sections"? I don't think I've ever come across these in my experience...



The EWTO ( European Wing Tsun Organization),the HQ of which is in Germany, is headed up by Keith Kernspecht, a direct student of Leung Ting.
KK came up with several programs (or sections) of lat sau to be taught to WT students at the beginning of their training to accelerate the learning process giving new students a pretty good grasp on how WT fights, early in their training.
Each program was taught at a different student level and were numbered accordingly.
So student grade one would learn program one of lat sau and so on.

In the US, the early WT groups were directly under LT and did not learn this German way of doing lat sau. They learned the Hong Kong method. Later generations of WT in the US learned the German way as European instructors came here and passed it along.

As an example, program one deals with straight line punching attacks at high, middle and low,along with low kicks to the legs.
Fifth program deals with knees and elbows and so on.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 10, 2012)

geezer said:


> Lotta good folks in Texas. It's a shame that sometimes organizational politics keep them apart. Same problem here in AZ. IMHO life's too short for that kinda garbage.



I agree Geez. Parker ex-commuicated us after our seperation. Glenn was his longest standing student of over 10 years. The sick part is that Glenn gave so much to that school, and Ram was literally running it for the last 2 years that he was there.

But all is well. They are now a part of City Wing Tsun under Sifu Alex Richter (New York). After the big split last year, there was many groups that went off, including Lau Sifu (Canada) and Sifu Haw Kuo (Art of Wing Tsun)... All the afore-mentioned are very skilled martial artists and wonderful people.

The IWTA is about over with in the US. Many of us just couldn't take the squeeze anymore, and I am genuinely happy that there are other alternatives for WT in the US now.


All the best!

Jeff


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2012)

Yak, your historical explanation is right on the money. Before Thomas Dolniski and Emin visited the US from Germany in the late 80s, we WT students under LT never sau the "lat sau" sections. Later, when Emin took over the IWTMAA, later called the IWTA, Lat Sau became part of the standard training. LT hated it, and after Emin left to form EBMAS, LT stopped allowing the German drills. I left WT in the early 90s and never did much of the German stuff. But after I got back into it and then joined the NVTO in 2007, I've been practicing and teaching that material and definitely see its value for the student.

Since I'm so old that I date back to the pre "lat-sau" days, I can see that these forms were reverse-engineered from the WT Chi-Sau sections bt KK for the EWTO. And, technically, I must say that this training system has the depth and quality associated worldwide with "German engineering". When students get into chi-sau after mastering the "lat-sau" sets, it all makes so much more sense to them. When you show them a chi-sau "section", they already have the structures down and they already know the applications.


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## Thunder Foot (Sep 10, 2012)

Can anyone post some examples of the lat sau sections? I've played lat sau, but it was never patternized. I'm assuming by  the description it was HKs lat sau. Though now that I recall we did try to pull out a few combinations from the form and dummy set.


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 10, 2012)

Here's one example.. not EXACTLY the way My group has been doing this, but it looks close enough.. more of a demo of sifu cengiz beating up his student:


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 10, 2012)

Seems like the structure falls apart towards the end, and the other guy getting beat up clearly is being overwhelmed.. his spine isn't straight.. his knees appear to lack the appropriate adduction.. 
but he keeps going so.. yeah!


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## profesormental (Sep 11, 2012)

Greetings.

I really like the discussion on the different ways you can evolve and play Chi Sao.
Personally, because of my research I've been moving away from Chi Sao as a long game. I've been more into the applications as a way to accelerate the learning for self defense against commons street attacks from people with ill intentions.

This is different than training for a match where the other person has certain respect for the other and has a defensive game to "win" the match.

Training to close the distance is very important. Yet this sometimes assume offensive strategy, which also assumes you want to fight, which is not considered a nice thing to do by district attorneys and judges. So care must be taken.

Training for when you DON'T want to fight is also important, where the attacker comes at you with SIGNIFICANT momentum and aggressive rage that can overwhelm certain defenses. Here, keeping structure and surviving the attack becomes primary to a significant initial response.

Hope this helps. Good summary of the Lat Sao and Chi Sao training methods.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado


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## WTchap (Sep 11, 2012)

Nabakatsu said:


> Here's one example.. not EXACTLY the way My group has been doing this, but it looks close enough.. more of a demo of sifu cengiz beating up his student:



There's some interesting things being worked here, but this is very different to the Hong Kong Lat Sau. It is actually quite hard to find video of it, but some does exist (snippets found in TV shows/programs that feature Leung Ting). You can find little bits of footage mixed in to the usual Chi Sau, dummy, forms etc, and then you can see how the Lat Sau in HK is very footwork driven. 

The drill in this video is kinda cool but it doesn't offer too much in term of entry from a non-bridge position, and lacks the footwork that goes with flowing attacks. Still, there are some nice things you can work from it.


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## WTchap (Sep 11, 2012)

Ps. Sifu Haw Kuo had up on his website/facebook some really nice articles/posts on Lat Sau and Chi Sau, as he learned it from his Chinese Sifu and also from Leung Ting and the top guys in HK. Worth a read! :wink:


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 11, 2012)

Yeah, the lat sau program starts with shin connection, and does include footwork, the video posted was not the best example.. but it served as a tool to show what it kind of looks like


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 12, 2012)

WTchap said:


> Ps. Sifu Haw Kuo had up on his website/facebook some really nice articles/posts on Lat Sau and Chi Sau, as he learned it from his Chinese Sifu and also from Leung Ting and the top guys in HK. Worth a read! :wink:



Sifu Haw Kuo is an amazing Sifu! I've only had the chance to touch hands with him a few times, but he made me believe in WT. He showed me how a little guy (probably a 100lbs...seriously) can knock a 210lb guy (me) around like a ****ing rag-doll. I have nothing but the utmost respect for his method and his philosophy. And he still has those posts up. Go look at artofwingtsun.com or find Haw Sifu on facebook. "Sifu Haw Kuo" in the search bar for FB.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 12, 2012)

Nabakatsu,

That "shin-connection" as you put it is the German Lat-sau. Whilst it IS a useful training device, I personally don't like it. Not because of the effectiveness. Trust me I learned many things from it. But in my teaching style (which I will post another comment about) does not couple the GLS programs.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 12, 2012)

First off, in reply to "Thunderfoot" (I believe):

I would post some video examples of the lat-sau programs, but #1 I broke the hell outta my computer screen, so I don't know how it if I could pull it off, and #2 the only person I have around right now to show these would be my dad, and maybe tomorrow I could have him demonstrate with me. To be honest, I don't really advocate the programs. I think with lat-sau, if your going to practice you need to go slow during the learning process so you train the correct responses for the correct formed actions. 

When you put on the gloves is the time to throw caution to the wind, with my students (or students I used to have as I just recently relocated), I would do lat-sau almost every session, and once or twice a week I would just do regular chinese lat-sau (Going at it, no pads, just controlling techniques). There is a good quote from Ip Man 3: Ip Chun (playing Leung Bik) says "When sparring with someone you hold back only your force, not your skill" or some such thing, which is to say, that while you are controlling your techniques so as not to hurt your partner, you are not holding anything back. You give it your all and let your WingTsun flow through you (ya, that was a star wars reference ...

I don't really teach in a set format. Every student is different. And they learn differently. To be an effective teacher, you don't just need to throw techniques at your students. You need to evaluate each students ability and what they NEED to learn in order to be effective. I teach what I call "Meat and potatoes" wingtsun. I teach what the student needs to learn to be effective and only things that will help him/her on their path to becoming the best they can be.

My ex-fiance was an extremely gifted judoka, and I taught her almost no chi-sau, because she didn't need it. I focused so much on lat-sau and she ran with it and did very well.

So it's all about what is good for you and your students, what makes it good for you. What helps them learn better.

Anyways folks, my screen is being extra stupid right this second so I'm going to wrap this up. 

I am very happy that this thread is getting so much attentino, it is very heartening to see so many WT/WC (and all the others) people who are getting into the philosophy and mechanics of WT.

All the best ya'll,

Jeff


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## Thunder Foot (Sep 12, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> First off, in reply to "Thunderfoot" (I believe):......
> 
> Jeff


Thank you for the in-depth reply. I have another question however. What is the purpose of the shin connection? I thought one of the defining characteristics of lat sau was "no bridge"? Am I mis-understanding?

Also the chain punching, what is being worked here? Are we learning how to effectively chain punch in this drill? and work off the chain punch? I ask because the Wing Chun that I play doesn't really use the "chain punch" per se... as we tend to use it more as a drill.


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## yak sao (Sep 12, 2012)

Thunder Foot said:


> Thank you for the in-depth reply. I have another question however. What is the purpose of the shin connection? I thought one of the defining characteristics of lat sau was "no bridge"? Am I mis-understanding?
> 
> Also the chain punching, what is being worked here? Are we learning how to effectively chain punch in this drill? and work off the chain punch? I ask because the Wing Chun that I play doesn't really use the "chain punch" per se... as we tend to use it more as a drill.



The no bridge is simply the starting point. Once you move into close range, a bridge must be built and maintained in order to control and feel the intentions of your opponent.
By having shin contact with our lead leg against the leg of our opponent, we are able to not only sense when a kick is being attempted, we are able to unbalance the opponent and keep the kick from ever happening.
By being in contact with the leg, we are able to sense as he moves away and stick to him, maintaining a constant presence in his face, instead of having to re-enter our range every time he moves back.

Same for the arms. It begins from no bridge, and we move into range where we are able to stick to our opponent's arms. If he tries to crash through the center, our arms are there to deter. If he tries to go around them, then our arms thrust forward and attack, they don't stick for the sake of sticking.
Chi sau/lat sau are both very close range. The better we are able to nullify the opponent's attacks, the more effecient we will be.

As for chain punching, the WT fighter seeks to end the fight as quickly and effeciently as possible. The chain punch is as much an overall strategy being trained as it is a tactic to be employed.
The new student doesn't have many tools at his disposal, so the chain punch is a way of imparting this concept of dominating the fight and centerline early on.

The further you get in WT, the more options you have at your disposal, but so many times a quick flurry down the middle ends it, so there is no need to go on to other things.
The best WT is simple WT.


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## geezer (Sep 12, 2012)

yak sao said:


> As for chain punching, the WT fighter seeks to end the fight as quickly and effeciently as possible. The chain punch is as much an overall strategy being trained as it is a tactic to be employed.
> The new student doesn't have many tools at his disposal, so the chain punch is a way of imparting this concept of dominating the fight and centerline early on.
> 
> The further you get in WT, the more options you have at your disposal, but so many times a quick flurry down the middle ends it, so there is no need to go on to other things.
> The best WT is simple WT.



Well said _Yak_. So many people don't get this. They rag on 'Chun for all the "mindless" chain punching. They don't understand that chain punching and pursuing step is just a way of teaching how to unleash a continuous flow of aggressive techniques. 

Later, as a student matures in his skills, he can maintain that same continuous offensive blitz while effectively varying his choice of techniques, targets, and timing. If a beginner tries to do the same thing, mentally selecting from a large menu of possible targets and strikes he will freeze up and lose the advantage. Chain punching builds the offensive flow. Lat sau and chi sau build the ability to automatically use the correct technique at the correct time. Sparring helps you put it all together and test it under pressure.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 12, 2012)

Thunder Foot said:


> Thank you for the in-depth reply. I have another question however. What is the purpose of the shin connection? I thought one of the defining characteristics of lat sau was "no bridge"? Am I mis-understanding?
> 
> Also the chain punching, what is being worked here? Are we learning how to effectively chain punch in this drill? and work off the chain punch? I ask because the Wing Chun that I play doesn't really use the "chain punch" per se... as we tend to use it more as a drill.



Jeez louise dudesky, you ask AWESOME questions. You get my mind thinking about stuff I haven't thought about in years! So first off, thank you for asking REALLY good questions!!!

Ok first off, the shin connection: This can be looked at in a few different ways. In WT, we are always trying to make the situation the most advantageous we can to us. So when you are doing lat-sau (HK) and you step in, if you cannot put your foot straight inbetween your opponents center line (right between his feet) you want to go shin/shin so as to nullify his leg techniques. You learn about this more and more as you advance higher and higher. Alot of these concepts are hidden in the dummy, where you come to understand what is called "Chi-Gerk" or sticky leg. It is something I don't often talk about because most people I know in WT just aren't there and the conecepts are very easy to understand, but they have a lot of depth. The other reason to keep your shin/shin contact in German Lat-sau is because you are always training your stance to be good. Both partners are in their front stance, where you are keeping 100% of your weight on you back leg. This is not to say i'm "floating my front leg; There is weight on the front leg, but it is "dead weight" in other words I am putting no pressure on my front leg so it is easier to move and my opponent can't sweep it. There are footwork drills (Huen bo or "circling steps") that you practice in German Lat-sau, and there are chi-gerk programs for it. But in Leung Ting Wing Tsun, you used to have to be a 4th technician or above to work chi-gerk. So it is considered quite advanced material. It got reduced to 2nd technician material in the last few years, but currently I don't know where it is at, because I am no longer apart of that association.

And I'm not exactly sure how ya'll practice lat-sau, but in HK (Hong Kong) lat-sau, it is ALL about bridging the gap. You have to enter on your opponent, and you can't do that without creating a bridge. I really don't know what information you need for me to explain this, so if you could reply in (either in video or descriptive post) on what exactly you do for lat-sau, maybe I could give you a more sufficient answer ....

I think you are misunderstanding part of the key concepts, but you aren't too far off the beaten path, maybe you were just showed only some of Lat-sau. Chain punching is not really the point of any lat-sau drill. Chain punching is what you learn your first week, and you keep practicing this throughout your entire WT learning experience. On of the main things you learn in Lat-sau is TIMING. In german lat-sau (shin/shin) you are learning to deal with different attacks and the first thing you learn is the "off-speed-punch", where your opponent does the cycle and then quickly pak-da's (pak-sau's and then has a very quick punch right behind it). Timing is everything in Lat-sau, it is the main focus. But in chi-sau we learn to feel. So combining timing and feeling, we are at the quite advantageous position in WT.

And thunder, I believe you are a JKD practitioner no? If so, your stance wouldn't allow for some of our techniques, you work out of a SPBkS or "Small Phasic Bent Knee Stance" for all our non-JKD-speaking people who view this thread. In JKD ya'll, we put most of our weight on our front leg, and our back foot has the heel raised off the ground so (fencing stance) so as to give us a very easy method of bursting forward with our stance, and this also allows us to lean back on our heel when someone throws a deep punch at us. So some of the techniques we use in WT literally can't be executed just based on your stance alone. All of the techniques you would learn in HK lat-sau would have to deal with the hands, you can't practice chi-gerk and the footwork drills at all based on the fact that your front leg bears most of your weight, which is a big no-no in traditional WC/WT, but this doesn't mean you can't enjoy or train lat-sau, it just means you have to modify how you use this. God, I would love to train with you sometime and show you what I'm talking about, I think if you learnt traditional WT lat-sau you would have a great time and would really enjoy the material and it would help you understand on a whole new and exiting level when coupled with JKD.

I hope that was a good answer, but please feel free to question it more, I don't have all the answers, I'll be honest, but I do have some good knowledge.

All the best, and thanks for the outstanding questions man!

Jeff


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## yak sao (Sep 12, 2012)

geezer said:


> Well said _Yak_. So many people don't get this. They rag on 'Chun for all the "mindless" chain punching. They don't understand that chain punching and pursuing step is just a way of teaching how to unleash a continuous flow of aggressive techniques.
> 
> Later, as a student matures in his skills, he can maintain that same continuous offensive blitz while effectively varying his choice of techniques, targets, and timing. If a beginner tries to do the same thing, mentally selecting from a large menu of possible targets and strikes he will freeze up and lose the advantage. Chain punching builds the offensive flow. Lat sau and chi sau build the ability to automatically use the correct technique at the correct time. Sparring helps you put it all together and test it under pressure.




That is the genius of our system. The lat sau builds the assertiveness of pressing the attack, while the chi sau makes the arms/body become springlike so that it happens all on its own.
An advanced practitioner is coming at you from so many different angles. What is so amazing about it though, is it isn't our conscious choice to throw a particular strike or combination,  our opponent chooses for himself how he is hit.


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 12, 2012)

Wow.. 4th tech for chi gerk.. man do I love ebmas.. Emin brings down so much stuff to the lower levels.. 
We have small chi gerk at lvl 9, (12 student levels before first tech) we're supposed to be able to use all of the first section of chi sau with our chi gerk level. I hear the main purpose is to develop a higher degree of coordination, and of course an introduction into leg sensitivity.


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 12, 2012)

Also, Jeff, excited to hear why/how your brand of WT doesn't couple with the shin on shin contact ect.. would love to hear any/all thoughts from a different version of WT.


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## Vajramusti (Sep 13, 2012)

Nabakatsu said:


> Also, Jeff, excited to hear why/how your brand of WT doesn't couple with the shin on shin contact ect.. would love to hear any/all thoughts from a different version of WT.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting discussion.I don't do lat sao- Kernspecht or Leung Ting style.

Our lat sao flows in and out of chi sao-breaking off engagement and re-enngaging.


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## Thunder Foot (Sep 13, 2012)

yak sao said:


> The no bridge is simply the starting point. Once you move into close range, a bridge must be built and maintained in order to control and feel the intentions of your opponent.
> By having shin contact with our lead leg against the leg of our opponent, we are able to not only sense when a kick is being attempted, we are able to unbalance the opponent and keep the kick from ever happening.
> By being in contact with the leg, we are able to sense as he moves away and stick to him, maintaining a constant presence in his face, instead of having to re-enter our range every time he moves back.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. This is how I understood it as well at first glance, but i wanted to confirm with some of you that train this. I understand that a bridge must be established, at which point people can stick. But I was told by some peers of mine that one property of HK lat sau, is as they called it "earning the bridge", which I believe has to do with timing your opponent coming in, or yourself moving in at which point a bridge happens... then having the sensitivity to stick and control that range. I'm sure my understanding is immensely limited, but if German lat sau begins stuck, are we assuming that the bridge has already be earned by both? (If I make any sense here, lol). Also, just curious as to if anyone has a rough number of attacks or defenses that could result in this specific type of starting bridge? 

The chain punch as you described, is also how I understood it... a tool to bring out the reflexive occupation of the centerline. But when I look at this drill it appears to me as if it presumes the attacker will attack in this manner upon bridge connection. Maybe its just the starting point to open the doorway to other attack/defense sequences? Again, sorry for my limited understanding.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 13, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Interesting discussion.I don't do lat sao- Kernspecht or Leung Ting style.
> 
> Our lat sao flows in and out of chi sao-breaking off engagement and re-enngaging.



We just call this "Gwoh-sau" or "chi-sau-fighting". Lat-sau is completely diffrent training tool for us, but to each their own.

Thanks for the post!

All the best,

Jeff


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## Thunder Foot (Sep 13, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Jeez louise dudesky, you ask AWESOME questions....
> 
> Jeff


Very informative! As far as Lat sau, we typically begin lat sau in the man sau/wu sau position, not touching and thats pretty much it. I've been told it's the HK method, but I wouldn't know beyond our practice as there isn't much online in regards to lat sau outside of the German method. I believe I understand the basic principles, so I am more inquiring towards the German method as I've never practiced it.

I have and do practice JKD locally, however my path has led me to the realization that what I've learned may lack structure and foundation. Since, I've been actively practicing VT (WC not sure if they are different haha) as well for the past year and a half. My hope is that it will give me some deeper insight into the ideas behind some of the other material I've learned. So far so good...


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## yak sao (Sep 13, 2012)

Thunder Foot said:


> Thanks for the reply. This is how I understood it as well at first glance, but i wanted to confirm with some of you that train this. I understand that a bridge must be established, at which point people can stick. But I was told by some peers of mine that one property of HK lat sau, is as they called it "earning the bridge", which I believe has to do with timing your opponent coming in, or yourself moving in at which point a bridge happens... then having the sensitivity to stick and control that range. I'm sure my understanding is immensely limited, but if German lat sau begins stuck, are we assuming that the bridge has already be earned by both? (If I make any sense here, lol). Also, just curious as to if anyone has a rough number of attacks or defenses that could result in this specific type of starting bridge?
> 
> The chain punch as you described, is also how I understood it... a tool to bring out the reflexive occupation of the centerline. But when I look at this drill it appears to me as if it presumes the attacker will attack in this manner upon bridge connection. Maybe its just the starting point to open the doorway to other attack/defense sequences? Again, sorry for my limited understanding.




No need to apologize...we're all students. I love having these discussions because it helps us all understand better.

The German lat sao doesn't "stick" in the chi sau sense (other than the shin pressure being adhered to).
It is very good at getting students comfortable at a very close range. It builds a good fighting spirit, because you have to stay in there and go at it or your partner will dominate.
It pressure tests your stance, your structure, helps develop springiness and forward pressure....all things that chi sau develops to be sure, only the lat sau is a little more explicit than chi sau. Chi sau can be rather abstract to the new student, the GLS is more concrete.

It isn't designed to be comprehensive, rather it is providing some templates to get the new student up and running with some basic WT concepts and techniques.
If you watch  intermediate or advanced practitioners performing the same basic German lat sao, it looks different because the lat sau has begun to take on more of a chi sau type characteristic.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 13, 2012)

Nabakatsu said:


> Also, Jeff, excited to hear why/how your brand of WT doesn't couple with the shin on shin contact ect.. would love to hear any/all thoughts from a different version of WT.



First off, I would like to say that even in Leung Ting Wing Tsun, you do learn some basic chi-gerk before 4th technician, but to learn all the (chi-gerk) sections you wait till after you learn the dummy.

However there is way better tuition you can find out there nowadays (Like City Wing Tsun: headed by Sifu Alex Richter ) 

I fear either you have misunderstood what I said, or I wasn't concise enough in my explanation. I do believe in leg/leg contact. But I don't believe in the German Lat-sau way of doing it. Keeping yourself in one spot does nothing to creative an intelligent fighter, and I'm all about approaching each and every situation in it's own way. In GLS, it is assumed that you have already created the bridge (i.e. leg/leg contact) but honestly that is what most people need to be drilled on most: entering.

I would much rather step "through" an opponent rather than to him. I wish I had a good video camera and I could just do a couple of short video's, maybe I'll ask my buddy and my dad to help me out this weekend if they have the time.

Anyways, bridging the gap and going forward and keeping your opponent uncomfortable with the distance control is my fighting application I use for my particular wing tsun brand. My personal brand (that I teach) is very aggressive and always moving forward. I see too many wasted movements in alot of wing tsun branches. Again this is my point of view, I don't claim to be an expert on ALL the wing tsun lineages, but I have some very valuable practical fighting knowledge, and also I am an accomplished wrestler, so I am very comfortable up close and personal.
Footwork, distance and timing are the cornerstones of the way I view wing tsun. You need to be mobile, control the pace of the engagement and give yourself enough room to operate and keep yourself safe.

I really want to post a video on bong-sau; I see many lineages using a very retracted bong-sau and for me this just never worked. I like to use my bong-sau kinda in a man-sau like manner, by (again) moving forward and letting my arm guide me. The more distance you have between yourself and your opponent means more operating room. But you need to keep pressure on the opponent whilst giving yourself room, and this is the hardest thing to explain to someone with no concept of distance.

Anyways, my mind seems to be wandering into tangent after tangent today, all the best and I would love to hear what your thoughts on WingTsun theories and concepts (protaining to your personal way of applying the art).


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## Vajramusti (Sep 13, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> We just call this "Gwoh-sau" or "chi-sau-fighting". Lat-sau is completely diffrent training tool for us, but to each their own.
> 
> Thanks for the post!
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------
Yes- to each its own. Problems in comparative usage of terms. Gor sao is attacking.
The Leung Ting chi sao is different so we have a problem in terminology... and details of actions.
It's ok.


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## WTchap (Sep 14, 2012)

Following on from Jeff's comments about pace and aggression, here is my Sifu teaching at a seminar (and no, this is not the standard way we sharpen knives :karate.


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## yak sao (Sep 14, 2012)

WTchap said:


> Following on from Jeff's comments about pace and aggression, here is my Sifu teaching at a seminar (and no, this is not the standard way we sharpen knives :karate.





Sifu Maday is impressive. I love watching his stuff.
You are very fortunate to be able to learn from him.

BTW, here's one I like.


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## WTchap (Sep 14, 2012)

Yes, I am lucky to be living in Hungary (for lots of reasons). Really good group of WT guys to train with, and very open with the data. As a Brit with hardly any Hungarian language skills, I am something of an oddity in classes. 

And that is some pretty old footage from Hong Kong :high5:. 

Sifu Maday's level of skill and knowledge: Asian  :asian:

LOL


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## geezer (Sep 14, 2012)

WTchap said:


> :high5:.
> Sifu Maday's level of skill and knowledge: Asian  :asian:
> 
> LOL



Just from what I've seen on Youtbe clips, Sifu Maday has terrific skill. He reminds me of a bigger, hairier version of my old Sifu, LT. Especially back in the late 80s when LT had a black goatee beard like that. Same movement, same speed, even the same "warrior" attitude. Of course everyone knows that LT is Norbert Maday's sifu as well. But there's more to it than that. Of all of us who trained WT with LT, only a few had the ability, brains and drive to reach that warrior level. Not me, that's for sure. But clearly Sifu Maday *is* one of those few.  As Yak said, your lucky to train under him!

BTW, I wouldn't call that level of skill "Asian". IMHO, A lot of those guys in Hong Kong never reach that level of competence either. Some of the best WT/WC today is practiced around the world outside China.


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## yak sao (Sep 14, 2012)

WTchap said:


> Yes, I am lucky to be living in Hungary (for lots of reasons). Really good group of WT guys to train with, and very open with the data. As a Brit with hardly any Hungarian language skills, I am something of an oddity in classes.
> 
> And that is some pretty old footage from Hong Kong :high5:.
> 
> ...



Did you study previously back home in EWTO? If so, what do you perceive as the differences? Or is the this your first taste of WT?


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## WTchap (Sep 15, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Did you study previously back home in EWTO? If so, what do you perceive as the differences? Or is the this your first taste of WT?



The answer is a little tricky! :wink1: My first taste of WT was many years ago in Budapest, when I came here for a work placement. I studied for a few months, and then work took me elsewhere. When back in the UK, I checked out schools in the EWTO but opted not to train with them at that point. I really didn't know enough about Wing Tsun to know exactly what was different, but I could see it _was_ different.

Looking back, mostly it was the training methods - in Hungary the classes had been sweaty and hard work, often leaving you bruised having taken a few hits. In the UK, no one seemed to land any punches on each other. The UK WT classes were good in terms of the technical teaching (and the instructors I met - both Paul Hawkes and Andrew Cameron were nice people), it just look so soft and compliant compared to WT in Hungary.

So I opted to look for something else. I found Kamon Wing Chun, and this looked like good, honest, physical training. More in line with the practical practice I'd been exposed to in Hungary. I trained with Kamon for about 3 years, maybe a little less, but over time realized that something was missing in Kamon, technically. (at this point I was thinking I'd find it hard to get the best of both worlds) But as luck would have it, love and life brought me back to Budapest and so back to the HWTO, in the EEWTO. :boing2:

I'm probably not qualified therefore, to say what all of the differences are between WT in Hungary and WT in the EWTO. However I do have lots of friends in Europe who study WT in the EWTO (and some are madly good). 

Certainly the physical nature of the training is different, but also something in the body method that I can't quite put my finger on. It is almost like in Hungary there is movement of the waist, more twisting and turning of the torso; while the guys from western Europe seem to move in a more linear way (does that make sense?). 

Personally, I think that KK in Germany has, over the years, added in new programs of his own creation, and added in his own ideas and understanding and that this has modified what is taught. As was and is his right to do so. Perhaps what people learn in the EWTO today is very different to what it taught, say, 20 years ago. I certainly think it looks a bit different. 

Maday Norbert, here in Hungary, has his own flavor of WT, I guess (every teacher does), but he is basically teaching as he has been taught by LT. When LT comes here to give seminars (he visits once per year at least), no one is shocked by what LT is teaching. On the other hand, I have heard more than one EWTO student/teacher express confusion at the difference between what they have been learning from KK and the EWTO team, and what LT taught them when he visited Germany. I don't know how true it is, but I heard that when many Scandinavian and Nordic WT guys left the organization in the 90s, it was for this reason - they felt that EWTO was, essentially, not teaching the full LT WingTsun.

But maybe the best person to ask would be someone like Patrik Gavelin in Sweden. He was in the EWTO, I believe, and is now training with Cheng Chuen Fun and Chris Collins - so he's had exposure to both brands of WT, and at instructor level. 

:drinky:

Sorry Jeff, this thread was about Chi Sau vs Lat Sau, and here I am talking about WT in Europe and what I found missing at Kamon in London. :burp:


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## yak sao (Sep 15, 2012)

I see what you're saying as far as the differences.

My first exposure to WT was from a 1TG who had trained originally under Richard Guerra and Robert Jacques ( who learned from Leung Ting) before EB took over the AWTO. Even back then with limited knowledge, I was able to see there was a difference in his approach. 

From there, the rest of my training came from my sifu and a couple of my si soks, who were products of EWTO training.
I was with them for about 10 years, but am now training with a Chinese sifu who is a product of HK WT training and have been with him for a little over 7 years.
Like you, I more feel the difference than see it. There is more roundness and smoothness to the movements, and less emphasis on "hard" angles, and like you said, there seems to be more waist rotation.

I have heard from a German WT instructor ( he was a 4TG under KK and went on to train under my Chinese sifu as well) that KK deliberately shows a different flavor of WT to the masses and reserves the "true" Chinese version for a select few. Anecdotal, so who knows how true?


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## yak sao (Sep 15, 2012)

BTW, you mentioned that there was less contact in the EWTO when you learned it?

My old sifu apparently didn't get the memo. Holy crap was there contact!


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## WTchap (Sep 15, 2012)

yak sao said:


> My old sifu apparently didn't get the memo. Holy crap was there contact!



LOL  Yes, this might just have been common to the classes I visited in the UK. Some of the EWTO people in Sweden, for example, didn't go easy on the power!


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