# Learning a new form!!



## Tlaloc (Jul 8, 2007)

I am currently learning Pyung ahn sam dan.  There are a few people I know that actually don't really like this form, but even though it's the shortest form I've learned so far, I find it to be the most interesting.  I haven't been practicing it for very long, but I've noticed a profound richness in this one. There's just so much that this one seems to offer in terms of teaching one balance, precision, and assertiveness.

Just as I said when I learned geicho hyung sam bo, pyung ahn cho dan, and pyung ahn ee dan, I LOVE this form!


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## bluemtn (Jul 8, 2007)

Personally?  I love all the Pyung Ahn forms!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 9, 2007)

Wow, there are actually people who don't like it? Hah. It was always one of my favorites at that level, and partly _because_ it's the shortest form up until keema hyung cho dan. 

The other reason, of course, is that there's a lot to the form. 

A few tips on pyung ahn sam dan, though I've no doubt you've heard them before:

(1) After you look before the first move, pick your left knee up _straight_, so that you can get more rotation from the hip when you set down into hugul jase. 

(2) The height of your first stance of the form is the height you should be for the rest of the form, minus the turn-around where you pull your arms to your ribs. Fighting stance or not, low stances are important.

(3) For the outside-inside kicks in the second half, turn into front stance before throwing the kicks. Trying to throw that kick still from a horse stance will only hurt you, especially because it becomes all the harder to keep your knee up after the kick and twist back for the elbow and stomp. 

(4) If you're not exhausted after the form, you didn't do it correctly.


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## Tlaloc (Jul 9, 2007)

Thank you for the tips JT.  I'll be sure to keep those points in mind when I practice them.  As for the last pointer, I'm sure that goes for all forms, right?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 9, 2007)

Tlaloc said:


> Thank you for the tips JT.  I'll be sure to keep those points in mind when I practice them.  As for the last pointer, I'm sure that goes for all forms, right?



You know it!


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## crushing (Jul 10, 2007)

I think it's kind of a fun form.  Someone in our class called it the chicken dance when we first started to learn it, particularly because of the bar heading back South.  Now we refer to it as such when discussing it.


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## mtabone (Jul 10, 2007)

crushing said: 

 "I think it's kind of a fun form. Someone in our class called it the chicken dance when we first started to learn it, particularly because of the bar heading back South. Now we refer to it as such when discussing it."


   I guess you actually mean North, not South, because traditionally Hyungs in Korea start facing South


   MTabone


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## agemechanic03 (Jul 13, 2007)

Although I have to say that I enjoy that form too, I really enjoy Pyung Ahn Sa Dan and Pyung Ahn Oh Dan the most. As JT said when doing the second half in the horse stance...turn your hips before you do your outside inside kick, it will make life that much easier...After a week or two doing it straight from the horse stance, my instructor corrected me and it was 10x easier!!!

Tang Soo!!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 13, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> Although I have to say that I enjoy that form too, I really enjoy Pyung Ahn Sa Dan and Pyung Ahn Oh Dan the most. As JT said when doing the second half in the horse stance...turn your hips before you do your outside inside kick, it will make life that much easier...After a week or two doing it straight from the horse stance, my instructor corrected me and it was 10x easier!!!
> 
> Tang Soo!!



Must've been a tough couple of weeks. Your hips only go so many directions. 

I'm actually focusing on this form a lot now, since it's required for all recert tests at my level and testing for sam dan. I have to know all the forms up to my level, of course, but pyong ahn sam dan especially.


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## agemechanic03 (Jul 14, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Must've been a tough couple of weeks. Your hips only go so many directions.
> 
> I'm actually focusing on this form a lot now, since it's required for all recert tests at my level and testing for sam dan. I have to know all the forms up to my level, of course, but pyong ahn sam dan especially.


 
It really was. It felt so weird to where I felt it was wrong. It was one of those senses that I had.


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## crushing (Jul 14, 2007)

mtabone said:


> crushing said:
> 
> "I think it's kind of a fun form. Someone in our class called it the chicken dance when we first started to learn it, particularly because of the bar heading back South. Now we refer to it as such when discussing it."
> 
> ...


 
No, I said what I meant.  I'm talking common sense North, not traditional Korean TKD North. . .errr. . .South.  

Also, except for your post in this thread, every reference I've seen regarding hyungs and facing a cardinal direction have the starting position as North.  But, I have only searched in English so they may have a Western bias.

Cheers!


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## stephentsd (Jul 16, 2007)

i dont know if anybody else has worked this out about Pyung Ahn Sam Dan, but if you put a knife in your hand, and swap the knife from 1 hand to another with each move in the form, it actually works out perfectly!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jul 16, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Wow, there are actually people who don't like it? Hah. It was always one of my favorites at that level, and partly _because_ it's the shortest form up until keema hyung cho dan.





JT_the_Ninja said:


> The other reason, of course, is that there's a lot to the form.
> 
> A few tips on pyung ahn sam dan, though I've no doubt you've heard them before:
> 
> ...


 

Greetings to all,

This hyung, like all of our hyung teaches us its our unique set of principles and techniques.

Among the technical additions to our system taught in Pyong Ahn Som Dan is the transition from Keema Jaseh to Keema Jaseh with the Pahkesu Ahnuro Chagi incerted between each step.

The major error that I have seen the majority of practitioners performing this hyung (Reason #3) make is the circular body rotation that causes them to loose heir balance as they throw the kick as their body has already rotated PAST the center point of the opponent..

Try it this way:

1. Rotate your body into Chun Gul Jaseh prior to executing the kick. Execute the kick and retract the knee to your center tucked as tightly as you can to your chest. 

2. Step forward as if you intend to wind up in Chun Gul Jaseh, but at the last second before your foot hits the ground, rotate into Keema Jaseh. This will provide you with much better balance and three to four times more power for the blocking technique that follows the kick with the forearm.

3. Drop the front shoulder forward and downward as you make the forward block. Simultaneously, _(*For application ONLY-Not shown in the hyung as performed*)_ allow your reverse hand to slide up along your chest to capture the blocked or deflected arm/wrist and draw that attacking weapon hand back to your reverse hip/side, while delivering the Kwon Do. Keep in mind that for the application, you will most likely make the first impact in this technique with your elbow, and than make a secondary strike with the Kwon Do. We are all taught that the intended weapon of choice is the Kwon Do, but the proximity is to close to really make the Kwon Do the primary weapon in this technique, as taught in this hyung.

Also JT,
You stated in reason #2 that the fists come up to the ribs. This is a misunderstood hand placement. The fists should be in the front pocket of the pelvis bone on each side, and the fists should be rotated inward, as to establish a solid skeletal structure at the shoulder.

Get a training partner, have your partner step in and punch you in the ribs as you perform this technique. If you have your arms up on your sides as taught, your shoulder will collapse on impact and you will fail at your attempt to block the punch. If you do it as I have explained here, your deltoids and pectoral muscles will hold your shoulder together and you will not collapse. The attack will be successfully deflected and you will be in a perfect position to control your opponent as you counter with the following techniques.

Try this and get back to me with what you learn from it


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 17, 2007)

Thank you for clarifying my point #1, Master Jay, but no on #2. I'm taught never to let my hands rest on my hips. The proper position (I'm taught) is just resting on the ribs, with the elbows still out straight. They're not _in_ on the ribs, but just bordering on being almost up on the chest. And it's really only the side of my fist formed by thumb and forefinger that's making contact with my body. I train myself against a free-hanging bag (100lbs of dead weight) regularly, so I know what works and what makes me hurt myself. 

Look at it this way: would you perform a pal koop kong kyuk with your arm at a wide angle like that? No, you keep the angle smaller, if not almost nonexistent. Similar concept here. 

All respect, Master Jay, since you've been training a lot longer than I have, but I'll continue to do as my sa bom nim says.

Tang Soo!

(Oh, and you don't need to use huge, bold text. We can all read normal text easily enough.)


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 17, 2007)

EDIT: Let me clarify, because I realized it's possible to misinterpret what I said there. I'm not suggesting that the move in pyong ahn sam dan is an elbow strike, but rather that a similar principle is involved. 

To break down what happens in that part of pyong ahn sam dan:

(1) Your opponent punches; you block the punch with your kick
(2) Your opponent punches again; you deflect again, this time using your elbow, turning with your waist for power, then smack him one on the forehead.

There are other interpretations, I'm sure. I'd like to think that, if your opponent doesn't go for a second punch (or even if he does), that elbow could be turning into a pal koop kong kyuk to the temple. It'd require a deviance from the actual motion of the form, but a lot of these things are hidden like that anyway. 

Anyway...to clarify what I mean about having a narrow angle to your elbow, not only does it give you a couple inches more reach, but it makes it more sturdy. Try hitting into something with a loose elbow like that. Try tensing your muscles as tight as you can, while still keeping your fist planted on your hip. Then bring your fist up to your ribs, crank back your waist, and let fly. This isn't a square dance here; it might be slightly more comfortable to have your hands on your hips, but it's going to hurt you, no matter how tense you think you are, because the hips only provide power. You have to have something that's going to stand up to whatever it has to hit, whether it be a fist coming at you or your opponent's side, or whatever. 

Those who know it, think of jinte (jindo/chinte/whatever), after the second time you drop into horse stance. You don't think you're just blocking something with those twists, do you? You're breaking out of a grab, so you're dropping into horse stance to loosen yourself and then slamming your elbows into your opponent's sides so he lets go and backs away (unless he wants more pain). You don't want your elbows that wide apart for something like that. You want them in close to deliver swift, fast strikes. 

In regard to the "collapsing" of my shoulder, I'm not throwing with my shoulder, so I see no reason for it to collapse. Elbow techniques are one of those areas to which I give special attention when I'm practicing before class. If you're throwing it with your shoulder, you're doing it incorrectly anyway.

Again, all respect to my seniors.

Tang Soo! (again)


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## Master Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

Hello Everyone,
I agree with jay on the moving into front stance prior to the exacution of the kick...now on the placement of the hands prior to the pal koop. Think of it in terms of a trap and strike rather then a defelection.  Try it this way, the deflection would be the kick...opponant punches you deflect the attack with the kick, he follows with another punch you trap his hand say with your left hand turning his wrist counter clockwise and pulling it to your left side his elbow is at 12 o clock....you press your elbow (forearm) against his exposed elbow...this is a basic elbow press found in other systems, jujitsu, hapkido..causing stress to the joint...this action will pull him off ballance and his head will be lowered for the finnishing strike.   so rather then just using the elbow as a deflection,,,hold on with the opposit hand, and come down hard with your elbow to his elbow joint....strike rather then defelction in this case.

Hope this was of some help

Dave


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## Master Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

Foot Note

On the hand placement again I agree with jay...I have had students join from other Tang Soo Do schools and the first thing I do is remove their hands from their rib cage and place them on the hips  near the plevis.  

Dave.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jul 17, 2007)

Dave,
Thank you for this input

If you rotate the opponents elbow to 12 Oclock you have to tie up your striking arm with the responsibility of locking his/her elbow. Try the same application with his/her elbow at a 90 degree angle against your chest. This will allow you to maintain the stress on the elbow while allowing your other hand/arm to be free to do other techniques independently.

TANG SOO!!!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jul 17, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Thank you for clarifying my point #1, Master Jay, but no on #2. I'm taught never to let my hands rest on my hips. The proper position (I'm taught) is just resting on the ribs, with the elbows still out straight. They're not _in_ on the ribs, but just bordering on being almost up on the chest. And it's really only the side of my fist formed by thumb and forefinger that's making contact with my body. I train myself against a free-hanging bag (100lbs of dead weight) regularly, so I know what works and what makes me hurt myself.





JT_the_Ninja said:


> Look at it this way: would you perform a pal koop kong kyuk with your arm at a wide angle like that? No, you keep the angle smaller, if not almost nonexistent. Similar concept here.
> 
> All respect, Master Jay, since you've been training a lot longer than I have, but I'll continue to do as my sa bom nim says.
> 
> ...


 

JT,
Absolutely; do as your Sa Bom Nim instructs you. At no time was I suggesting that you change the way that you perform. Every system and every association within every system have variations in how they teach what we do. To try something that someone else does is not wrongful, and is not intended to put down what you already do.

Your response to my suggestions makes me think that you may have missed my point or misunderstood what I was explaining. The best way for these points to be made is in person when we can work with these techniques in person.

Do you know Sa Bom Nim Gene Garobowsky? He was a member of ITF for 22 years and lives and teaches in your area. I will be in his dojang in September to teach a seminar for his students. This seminar will be open to anyone that is interested in participating. I will be demonstrating these techniques and application at this seminar. We will post the information for this seminar when it is finalized. I hope that you will come and work with us.

It should be understood in advance that the purpose of my seminars is in no way an attempt to recruit students away from their current instructors and associations. We respect everyone and their relationships and association affiliations.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 17, 2007)

@master dave: nice input, and that's an interesting way to see the form in application, if not the one I hear most often. 

I _still_ say, though, that having your hands on your hips is a disadvantage in this situation. If I get you right, it's the back hand that grabs the punch (while your body is still facing forward after the kick?) and pulls to the side for the twist and lock. In that case, though, wouldn't you rather turn your arm over for a more typical elbow strike, using the front of the elbow, rather than the side? In that case, why would you ever want your arm to be at anything close to a 90-degree angle? 

@master jay: never heard of him. where's his school? I probably won't be able to attend, but it's nice to know you have contact with ITF schools. Like I said, though, next may I'll be at the National All-Martial Arts tournament, so if you're able to show up to that, I'll listen to/ watch whatever you have to say/ show.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jul 20, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @master dave: nice input, and that's an interesting way to see the form in application, if not the one I hear most often.
> 
> I _still_ say, though, that having your hands on your hips is a disadvantage in this situation. If I get you right, it's the back hand that grabs the punch (while your body is still facing forward after the kick?) and pulls to the side for the twist and lock. In that case, though, wouldn't you rather turn your arm over for a more typical elbow strike, using the front of the elbow, rather than the side? In that case, why would you ever want your arm to be at anything close to a 90-degree angle?
> 
> @master jay: never heard of him. where's his school? I probably won't be able to attend, but it's nice to know you have contact with ITF schools. Like I said, though, next may I'll be at the National All-Martial Arts tournament, so if you're able to show up to that, I'll listen to/ watch whatever you have to say/ show.


 

He left ITF a couple of years ago, but still has friends in the ITF. He was directly under Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim for approx. 22 years, and earned his 4th dan.

Iam not familiar with the National All-Martial Arts tournament...

Who presents it?
Where is it held?

Can you forward me an email with a link to it?

The only tournament that I have consistantly supported in recent years is the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwans International Championships. It would be interesteing to see how the other associations tournaments are being run these days. I will look forward to receiving this information from you.

The TSDMGK's 2008 tournament is already in the plans and is going to be held in Arlington, Texas. You know what they say about Texas; everything there is BIG!!! The TSDMGK members that are in charge of the planning and execution of this event have been involved in many tournaments over the years. When they say that the "2008" tournament promises to be the tournament to use as the new hallmark for all others to follow, you can bet that it will be just that.

Start saving and making your plans NOW!!! This is the one that you won't want to miss.

As Master Tom Cox said as he presented the plans for next years event at this years event; 

*All that you have to do is show up,* _*and bring two friend!!!*_


We hope to see you there!!!


*TANG SOO!!!*


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 20, 2007)

@ Master Jay: I've plugged the May tournaments quite a bit here, but just for reiteration's sake:

The National All-Martial Arts Championships are held every year on the last weekend of May or the first weekend of June, usually on a Saturday. They are hosted by C.S. Kim, as they are held in Pittsburgh, but the competition isn't just ITF. Aside from other TSD schools, there are karate, taekwondo, and even chinese style martial artists in attendance every year. There are four events: forms, sparring, breaking, and weapons (more forms), with each event broken up into divisions by age, gender, and rank (black belt from color belt). The tournaments are held at the Fitzgerald Field House on the University of Pittsburgh campus -- usually packed to the gills with competitors and spectators.  This year we even had some competitors from Mexico. It's always cool stuff.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jul 20, 2007)

Thank you JT...


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## Lynne (Jul 20, 2007)

I'm looking forward to learning the Pyung Ahn forms in a few months. They look like quite the challenge with the Hulgul Jaseh, arm preparations, and extra steps.

I hear the first Pyung Ahn form is difficult to learn.

Have fun Tlaloc!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 20, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I'm looking forward to learning the Pyung Ahn forms in a few months. They look like quite the challenge with the Hulgul Jaseh, arm preparations, and extra steps.
> 
> I hear the first Pyung Ahn form is difficult to learn.
> 
> Have fun Tlaloc!



Actually, if you've got the 3 gicho hyung well under control, pyung ahn cho dan will be easy to learn, except for perhaps one part.  You'll see. Just don't get so far ahead of yourself in expectations that you forget about what you're learning right now.


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## Lynne (Jul 20, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Actually, if you've got the 3 gicho hyung well under control, pyung ahn cho dan will be easy to learn, except for perhaps one part. You'll see. Just don't get so far ahead of yourself in expectations that you forget about what you're learning right now.


I am practicing all three (just got the aiming down). I keep practicing them.  I'm doing well with Gi Cho Hyung Sam Bu and am trying to get the Hulgul Jaseh as perfect as I can.  The instructors haven't actually begun correcting us on the Hulgul Jaseh yet.  Most of the yellow belts just step out with a pointed toe, hardly bending the back leg.  It's because they don't know any better.  They don't do all of the aiming either such as the aim after hadon makee before the side punches.  I have my daughter to fuss at me.  I also have Master R's DVD for yellow/white belt, too.  That's where I learned the aiming.

I hardly look at other people in class because I'm so focused on what I'm doing.  I am definitely not trying to learn higher forms. My head would explode. Very good advice, JT!


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