# If I could get some insights



## DocWard (Aug 18, 2008)

Hi, as my post count indicates, I am quite new here. I posted a thread in the Meet & Greet forum that can be found here, for those who are interested:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66490

Since writing that, I have done a fair amount of lurking and reading, trying to gather information. Sadly, in a sense, some of what I have read has confirmed my suspicions and ended some dreams I have had for a number of years. Specifically, I had long wanted to learn ninjutsu, and Stephen K. Hayes was always about 40-45 minutes away, when time and money made that a possibility. I even stopped by the dojo a few months before my deployment, hoping to take lessons when I returned.

Since that visit, something didn't sit quite right, although I couldn't put my finger on it. In reading all that I could on the subject, it seems to me that the concern there is to be a commercial success, first and foremost. I walked away feeling not impressed with what I saw. I mean no disprespect toward Mr. Hayes, his art, or his dojo, but that visit, along with everything I have read, leads me to the conclusion that I wouldn't be a good fit there, and I would feel as though I am clearly not getting my money's worth in return.

Now (deep breath) with that out of the way, and hopefully having not offended the To-Shin Do practitioners too badly, I am still very interested in ninjutsu. Whether I will go straight into it, or finish my Kenpo black belt first, I am unsure. I was mildly, yet pleasantly surprised to find an actual Bujinkan dojo in Dayton. It costs far less and is even about 10 minutes closer to me!

http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/index.html

Now, for the insights I am asking for. Even though it is a licensed Bujinkan school, I realize that not all schools and instructors are top notch. So, has anyone had any experience here? Are any of the instructors familiar to other practitioners? I know that, Hatsumi Soke aside, at least a couple of the names they list as "Budo Mentors" under the adult training heading popped up favorably when I was viewing threads, but I don't know that those automatically translate to a good instructor staff.

Any thoughts, opinions and insights are greatly appreciated.


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## cypher (Aug 18, 2008)

Make time to visit with them, take a class (and watch one to see how people interact with the instructors and get the Feeling of the class) and look around the dojo. If you see certificates with the Bujinkan seal, then you're good. They should also be able to answer your questions. Tell them outright what you're looking for. If they don't have credentials on display, ask to see them. Explain why. You want to insure that you are a fit for the school and that they are a fit for you. And above all NEVER doubt your gut it is usually right. 
Ninpo Ik-kan! and good luck!
Cypher


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## DWeidman (Aug 19, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> ...I was mildly, yet pleasantly surprised to find an actual Bujinkan dojo in Dayton. It costs far less and is even about 10 minutes closer to me!
> 
> http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/index.html
> 
> ...Any thoughts, opinions and insights are greatly appreciated.



Larry is out there as well.  Ask Marty about his contact information as well - gives you another place to stop by to add to the list of possibilities.

-Daniel


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## Kreth (Aug 19, 2008)

I've trained with Jeff Ochester a few times. He knows his stuff.


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## DocWard (Aug 19, 2008)

DWeidman said:


> Larry is out there as well.  Ask Marty about his contact information as well - gives you another place to stop by to add to the list of possibilities.
> 
> -Daniel



You need to be patient with me. Who are Larry and Marty?



Kreth said:


> I've trained with Jeff Ochester a few times. He knows his stuff.



Thanks, that is good to know. I hope I don't get too impatient to get home and check it out over the next few months! I am already impatient to be home with my wife and daughters!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 19, 2008)

Kreth said:


> I've trained with Jeff Ochester a few times. He knows his stuff.



I do not believe I have trained with Jeff though we may have been at a few places at the same time.  Still for what it is worth I have only heard positive things about him.


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## Kreth (Aug 19, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> Thanks, that is good to know. I hope I don't get too impatient to get home and check it out over the next few months! I am already impatient to be home with my wife and daughters!


Just noticed your location. Thanks for your service!


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## nitflegal (Aug 19, 2008)

If he's the one I'm thinking of I think I went down there for seminars a few times and it was a solid school.  Too much of a hike from Michigan to do for a normal class schedule so I've no clue on those.  FWIW, and not to derail the thread, I did bop down to Hayes-sensei a few times as well and though it seemed more regimented than I preferred I learned a lot and the taijutsu was good.  

All in all, I'm glad to be back on the East Coast though. 

Matt


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## DocWard (Aug 19, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Just noticed your location. Thanks for your service!



Thank you.


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## Kichigai-no-Okami (Aug 20, 2008)

Trained with both Jeff and Marty.  Dayton Bujinkan Dojo will be well woth your time.  Hope you stop by.  :ultracool


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## rutherford (Aug 21, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> You need to be patient with me. Who are Larry and Marty?



I believe he's referring to Larry Turner.  

Marty Dunsky is one of the owners and instructors at the Dayton Bujinkan Dojo.

I haven't met any of these gentlemen and so cannot advise you other than to encourage you to check them out for yourself.


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## DocWard (Aug 21, 2008)

rutherford said:


> I believe he's referring to Larry Turner.
> 
> Marty Dunsky is one of the owners and instructors at the Dayton Bujinkan Dojo.
> 
> I haven't met any of these gentlemen and so cannot advise you other than to encourage you to check them out for yourself.



I thought that might be who the Marty is, but wasn't sure from the context, especially since I didn't know the Larry.

It sounds like it might make a great choice. I am certainly going to stop in and consider it, after figuring the finances out with my wife!


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## DWeidman (Aug 22, 2008)

rutherford said:


> I believe he's referring to Larry Turner.



Yep.  Larry is a 20+'er



rutherford said:


> Marty Dunsky is one of the owners and instructors at the Dayton Bujinkan Dojo.



Correct again.

Best of luck.

-Daniel


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## DocWard (Aug 23, 2008)

DWeidman said:


> Yep.  Larry is a 20+'er
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



You're going to have to bear with me, yet again. I assume you mean he has been at it for over twenty years. I hate to sound too dense, but what is Larry Turner's relationship to the Dayton Bujinkan? I can't seem to find his name mentioned?

Thanks, and thanks for the well wishes.


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## DocWard (Apr 14, 2009)

Well, I hope people don't mind if I resurrect this thread. I am finally back in Ohio, and will hopefully be getting into a routine, and I am planning on visiting the dojo soon. So some questions from the practitioners here:

Should I be looking for anything in particular? Any specific questions? One question I will ask them, but I will ask here as well. I don't know if I will be able to get to the dojo as often as I would like, due to kids, national guard, etc... Are there any good adjuncts to assist in training there, such as DVDs? I refuse to attempt to rely on them solely, but when I can only make it once a week, or less, I don't want to lose ground.

Additional thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.


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## DocWard (Apr 14, 2009)

It doesn't seem I can edit my previous message, so I should clarify. I meant to ask about what I should be asking about and looking for specific to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Thanks in advance.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 15, 2009)

I am in Genbukan, not Bujinkan, but you should find out if they are a legit dojo or not. That should be relatively easy to find out.

As for training... I cannot really compare. In Genbukan, the curriculum is fairly strictly divided in kyu grades. So for 10th kyu you learn several things, for 9th you learn more, etc.
These levels are identical within all Genbukan dojo.

I am still a white belt, so we do a lot of basic work. In between trainings (only 1 class per week atm) I practise a lot at home. I work on the basics that we learned before. I spend a lot of time on basic kamae and kihon.

If you do this, then you will progress more rapidly than if you had attended only the official lessons.
It is also worth noting that o become good, you spend much more time on repeating over and over again, than on learning 'new' things.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi,

I'm not Bujinkan either, but with the prominence of bogus instructors around at times, you should be able to get information such as who the instructor trained under, as well as current Bujinkan membership cards/Shidoshi-kai membership etc.

Other than that, watch the class, watch how the instructor interacts with the students (is it a way you would appreciate, or a way that you don't gel with...), the way the students interact with the instructor (is there a healthy degree of respect, or do they ignore the instructions), and the way the students interact with each other (friendly and helpful to each other, or more clique-y and bullying). These are standard things to look for in any school from any art, though, and are certainly not specific to Ninjutsu or the Bujinkan.

The last thing is to watch the way everyone moves. Is the Instructor moving in a way you want to be able to move yourself? Are the beginners getting their skills in a reasonable length of time? Are the more senior students movingmore like the Instructor as they rise in rank/experience? These are all signs of a good Instructor, and a good school. If there is a definate link back to Japan, then you can be (reasonably) sure of the Instructor moving in a way that reflects the Bujinkan methods well. Essentially, there should be fluid movement, and a well-demonstrated ability to easily flow into variations from a single movement.

Hope this helps, hopefully the Bujinkan guys here can give a bit more detail (Cryo, maybe?)...


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## Hudson69 (Apr 15, 2009)

I have an EPAK background and a Budo Taijutsu background (and have been deployed as well) so this might be similar to what you will be going through.

I would suggest getting your black belt in Kenpo, I know I wish I had and at the same time do not break off any ties with your Kenpo school as Kenpo is more of a "I really want to win/survive a street fight and need to get as close to what real unarmed combat will be like" where as the "Ninja" are more of a "No sparring allowed; this art is too dangerous (provided you have a sword and the other guy doesn't have a gun)."  

Take this with a grain of salt since I like Budo Taijutsu, it has a lot of physical skills in its curriculum that Kenpo lacks (break falls and tumbling) and the basic locks are solid (another weak point that I saw in Kenpo but I only made it to 1st Brown).

If you are looking for "Ninjutsu" to be a "Warrior's Art" it kind.... of is, but in a very classical sense (to me).  I feel that if you are looking for a system that promotes the warrior ethos and is geared toward survival just be prepared to put a significant amount of time to get to a level where you have enough practical skills to be useful.  BBT really seems to be about teaching skills that are too archaic to be practical in todays society and if you are in the military and prone to deployments you might want to do some distance ed/videos first to see if this is really what you want.

If this helps I just had a long (email) discussion with my Budo Taijutsu Instructor about my focussing on my LEO Defensive Tactics and he straight up said that there would be no sparring in his class, that he was teaching BBT the way "Soke" wants it to be and if I could not do that then I shouldn't come to his class; this is one instructor though and that is his opinion and his school.  

Sorry for the long windedness of my reply but Kenpo v. Budo Taijutsu would put Kenpo hands down as the better of the two and a strong foundation in Kenpo might save your life whereas as too much BBT might or might not help (personal opinion only).


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## Hudson69 (Apr 15, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I am in Genbukan, not Bujinkan, but you should find out if they are a legit dojo or not. That should be relatively easy to find out.
> 
> As for training... I cannot really compare. In Genbukan, the curriculum is fairly strictly divided in kyu grades. So for 10th kyu you learn several things, for 9th you learn more, etc.
> These levels are identical within all Genbukan dojo.
> ...


Kenpo is the same way for promotion as your Genbukan class; Bujinkan is supposed to be the same way but I have not seen it under three different instructors.  In EPAK it was 10 techniques for yellow and one set (a blocking kata) and every belt after that was 24 techniques and a set or kata with weapons mixed in.  There was a lot of structure and a lot of sparring.  Much fun had by all; probably the funnest school I have been to outside of a DT school.


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## stephen (Apr 15, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> I would suggest getting your black belt in Kenpo, I know I wish I had and at the same time do not break off any ties with your Kenpo school as Kenpo is more of a "I really want to win/survive a street fight and need to get as close to what real unarmed combat will be like" where as the "Ninja" are more of a "No sparring allowed; this art is too dangerous (provided you have a sword and the other guy doesn't have a gun)."
> ...
> If you are looking for "Ninjutsu" to be a "Warrior's Art" it kind.... of is, but in a very classical sense (to me).  I feel that if you are looking for a system that promotes the warrior ethos and is geared toward survival just be prepared to put a significant amount of time to get to a level where you have enough practical skills to be useful.  BBT really seems to be about teaching skills that are too archaic to be practical in todays society and if you are in the military and prone to deployments you might want to do some distance ed/videos first to see if this is really what you want.
> ...
> Sorry for the long windedness of my reply but Kenpo v. Budo Taijutsu would put Kenpo hands down as the better of the two and a strong foundation in Kenpo might save your life whereas as too much BBT might or might not help (personal opinion only).




My experience has been vastly different.


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## ElfTengu (Apr 15, 2009)

stephen said:


> My experience has been vastly different.


 
I'm afraid that's about as helpful as Stephen is likely to be.

KarateEsque, with your kempo and occupational background, you will find plenty in any of the X-kans that will be of use to you, although you may find the relaxed nature of the Bujinkan difficult to adjust to for the same reasons. The feeling is that real fights lack structure and so we apply the same concept to our training and ranking. (Stephen will disagree)

And rather than make judgements merely from observing, as you did for Toshindo, ask the instructor after the class about any doubts you have about what you have seen, and if he/she is worth their salt they will be able to put your mind at rest and most likely with a physical demonstration, with you as the recipient so that you know it works.

As long as your training methods 'keep it real' you will be fine.

Hudson69's comments are certainly true if you're a weak skinny university student hoping to become a super warrior and stop the the jocks keeping doing wedgies on you, but you're obviously not.


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## DocWard (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks for the insights so far. Perhaps I should elaborate a bit, to limit some confusion.

I definitely appreciate my Kenpo instruction, and continue to maintain my instructor in the highest regard. I learned much there, and thanks to my work there, have a fair level of confidence in my abilities. As I am now in my early forties, I am not really looking to prove that I can keep up with the young guys in sparring and tournements. Heck, I still get enough of trying to keep up with the young guys running with a combat arms unit in the Guard. I also get a bit of firearms training (which I also practice outside the Guard), and having three qualified Army Combatives instructors in my unit means I get a bit of time practicing that as well.

At this point in my life, I am looking to not only develop and broaden my experience in the martial arts physically, I am looking to delve more into the philosophical aspects of the arts, even the "spiritual" aspects, for lack of a better word, something that was alway lacking in my Kenpo experience. This has been something that has always been an interest, but ended up taking a back seat to learning the self-defense aspects. Thus, if I were to return to Kenpo, it would be for the purpose of completing my black belt, essentially to be able to say I had earned it. I don't know if that is a good enough reason, considering the shift in my interests.

The philosophy aspect is partially what drew me toward Mr. Hayes. It seems though, that in part my experience at the dojo might be what didn't sit well. Not quite anything I could put a finger on, but just something saying I wouldn't fit in as well as I would've liked. When I said earlier that I wasn't impressed with what I saw, I should say I didn't mean the technical aspects of what I saw, I meant the overall experience. It seemed to be as much or more about "selling the brand," the brand being Mr. Hayes and the name To-Shin Do, as anything else. Obviously, I didn't talk to Mr. Hayes personally, and the members of the staff I did talk with were polite and friendly, but still, I left feeling disconcerted, for lack of a better word.

Talk about your long-winded posts!


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## stephen (Apr 15, 2009)

ElfTengu said:


> ask the instructor after the class about any doubts you have about what you have seen, and if he/she is worth their salt they will be able to put your mind at rest and most likely with a physical demonstration, with you as the recipient so that you know it works.



I would question any instructor that accepts what amounts to 'challenge matches' from people off the street. 

Turning it up with a friend or trusted student is one thing, but I have nothing I need to prove so much that I'm willing to mix it up with someone who I don't know who could have any number of mental/physical/spiritual problems.


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## DocWard (Apr 15, 2009)

stephen said:


> I would question any instructor that accepts what amounts to 'challenge matches' from people off the street.
> 
> Turning it up with a friend or trusted student is one thing, but I have nothing I need to prove so much that I'm willing to mix it up with someone who I don't know who could have any number of mental/physical/spiritual problems.


 
I can be corrected if I am wrong, but I didn't take him to be suggesting that I engage in a "challenge match," but that I act as a uke for the demonstrated techniques. I would not be up for engaging in a challenge match, but hopefully have enough of a background to understand the concepts of techniques and their application.


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## Carol (Apr 15, 2009)

KarateEsq said:


> I can be corrected if I am wrong, but I didn't take him to be suggesting that I engage in a "challenge match," but that I act as a uke for the demonstrated techniques. I would not be up for engaging in a challenge match, but hopefully have enough of a background to understand the concepts of techniques and their application.



Yes, but you putting yourself up in a position where you're going to get hit by an instructor implies quite a bit of trust in a relationship that has not yet been built. He (or she) doesn't know who you are yet he's going to start pounding on you?  I would also question an instructor that proceeds in such a fashion.  

Many folks say martial arts are more about the journey than the destination, and you definitely sound like someone that is looking for the right journey, instead of the destination (of a Kenpo black belt).  A better approach may be to see how responsive the instructor is to your interest and your goals. :asian:


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## ElfTengu (Apr 15, 2009)

KarateEsque, the Kempo guy from the USA who I have never communicated with before today, took my comments exactly as I intended.

Stephen, who I have communicated with numerous times over several years on various forums, who lives less than a hundred miles from me as a fellow Brit, and who like me has spent many years training Bujinkan, got completely the wrong end of the stick.

A simple demonstration of some principles was all I was suggesting, some off balancing and simple techniques perhaps, not a challenge match to prove a point.

Whilst I ponder on this, I should also try to reassure Carol that nobody is likely to get hit or pounded at any of the dojos recommended earlier in this thread, or pretty much any Takamatsuden dojo.

The other week my teacher was talking to the instructor from the judo class that runs before our taijutsu class, about some of the things that were taken out of classical martial arts to create judo and he used me to demonstrate some points on. The judo guy was then invited to 'feel' some of what we were talking about and it was simple kyusho points to aid kuzushi, that kind of thing, and nobody's nose was put out of joint and nobody got pounded. Respect was shown for how skilled the judoka are because they are fitter and very good at what they do, but it gave them some idea of their own history that they were previously unaware of, and provided them with something to think about when applying judo on the street (and sneaky things to try during competitions).


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## DocWard (Apr 15, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yes, but you putting yourself up in a position where you're going to get hit by an instructor implies quite a bit of trust in a relationship that has not yet been built. He (or she) doesn't know who you are yet he's going to start pounding on you? I would also question an instructor that proceeds in such a fashion.


 
In the Army we often use the "crawl, walk, run" method. I would expect that any techniques employed would be done at the crawl phase, possibly working up to the walk phase, depending on how much time was spent initially. Any instructor who started pounding, regardless of my background, would not be one that I would work with.



> Many folks say martial arts are more about the journey than the destination, and you definitely sound like someone that is looking for the right journey, instead of the destination (of a Kenpo black belt). A better approach may be to see how responsive the instructor is to your interest and your goals. :asian:


 
I believe you have characterized my thoughts well, as well as my plans when I do visit. I'm simply trying to go in as informed as possible regarding the art itself.


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## stephen (Apr 15, 2009)

ElfTengu said:


> Stephen, who I have communicated with numerous times over several years on various forums, who lives less than a hundred miles from me as a fellow Brit, and who like me has spent many years training Bujinkan, got completely the wrong end of the stick.



Sorry about that, the sudafed does that to me sometimes.....

In any case you don't have to be so mean, it was an honest mistake...No need to be calling me derogatory epitaphs like 'Brit'. 

In any case, I'd be very careful about how you phrase such a request. Questions like 'I don't think that would work, show it on me' coming from people in their first class can come off sounding weird. 

If you're really interested in the martial art I think it's best to go to a few classes first with a bit of an empty cup to get a feel for the lay of the land.


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## ElfTengu (Apr 15, 2009)

stephen said:


> Sorry about that, the sudafed does that to me sometimes.....
> 
> In any case you don't have to be so mean, it was an honest mistake...No need to be calling me derogatory epitaphs like 'Brit'.
> 
> ...


 
No worries mate, it's not like we don't make a habit of it! 

No harm in asking questions respectfully though, not of the 'that wouldn't work' variety, but I'm sure KarateEsque would be the epitome of tact based on his conduct here.

An open mind is a must for anything new though, unless it's something the local priest wanted to try on you when you were a choirboy!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 15, 2009)

Good discussion everyone!

KarateEsq there are lots of options for you in your immediate area.   Look around and find an instructor that fits you best! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I am sure that you can find a good quality Budo Taijutsu instructor near you!


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## Carol (Apr 15, 2009)

ElfTengu said:


> Whilst I ponder on this, I should also try to reassure Carol that nobody is likely to get hit or pounded at any of the dojos recommended earlier in this thread, or pretty much any Takamatsuden dojo.



Thanks guys.  Sorry if I sounded alarmist.  I'm sometimes afflicted with the engineer's disease of taking everything literally.


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## DocWard (Apr 16, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Thanks guys. Sorry if I sounded alarmist. I'm sometimes afflicted with the engineer's disease of taking everything literally.


 
That explains why my daughter wants to be an engineer! Or would that be why she takes everything literally?


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## Hudson69 (Apr 21, 2009)

KarateEsq said:


> Thanks for the insights so far. Perhaps I should elaborate a bit, to limit some confusion.
> 
> I definitely appreciate my Kenpo instruction, and continue to maintain my instructor in the highest regard. I learned much there, and thanks to my work there, have a fair level of confidence in my abilities. As I am now in my early forties, I am not really looking to prove that I can keep up with the young guys in sparring and tournements. Heck, I still get enough of trying to keep up with the young guys running with a combat arms unit in the Guard. I also get a bit of firearms training (which I also practice outside the Guard), and having three qualified Army Combatives instructors in my unit means I get a bit of time practicing that as well.
> 
> ...


I know how you feel I recently left my Budo Taijutsu school because he is dedicated to the teaching styles of "Soke" and will not allow sparring, does not really want to hear anything about modification of techniques for a more modern usability and so on; I am looking to be a better DT Instructor and to do that I need to find out what works for "most" since we have all types and sizes of officers in my department and it must be acceptable by my Training Academy and POST.  

I still think you should go for the Black Belt now because of the many systems I have been luck enough to be a part of Kenpo was one of the more physical arts (I am an SSG in the ARNG as well) and I would not want you to go into something less physical even though you are either Army or AF and then regret not achieving that level of training and try to go back and hurt yourself.  

Again my perspective on the physical nature of Budo Taijutsu is that it will take anyone and your level of fitness is up to you, they dont care and you can run marathons or be a couch potato you are still okay to train.  Kenpo and DT are very different and you need to have a certain level of fitness to be able to work the techniqes and keep up with training --my opinion only--


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## nitflegal (Apr 21, 2009)

stephen said:


> My experience has been vastly different.



Same here.  I wonder if the issue is, to be blunt, that the quality of Bujinkan instructors in the US varies greatly.  To be even more blunt, I think budo taijutsu relies a lot more on fairly subtle body mechanics than Kempo (BTDT) and a lot of teachers simply can't convey that information well.  A teacher who can't convey those, who focuses on the "lunge punch" as a firm technique instead of a clever approach to teaching the concepts of body and mind together/stcaking body parts to create an effect, who dumps sparring without adding the myriad of drills to create the same emotional/psychological effect, and so forth is going to give you crappy information.  I'd also toss out that several Bujinkan instructors I've briefely trained with didn't actually know the full spectrum of Bujinkan basics and tried to force-fit concepts from other styles they'd studied in to paper over the holes.  Much of the time that just flat out doesn't work.  If you get one of those guys you'd be much better off in Kempo because it will teach you a solid style with more consistent instructors.  Just because I think budo taijutsu has a lot more depth doesn't mean that a mediocre instructor who doesn't know that stuff isn't a waste of your time.

Matt


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## MMcGuirk (Apr 21, 2009)

If I may add,  it is up to the student to find a good teacher.  Convenience of location is not a factor in my opinion.  I've met people who refused to drive 20 minutes or more for a dojo.  I personally have commuted 2hrs one way for 11 years just to train, not counting my university days.  I also met a couple of 1980's students who had to commute 8 hours one way, so mine is not so bad.

A couple things have stayed consistent in my years of training:

there are a lot of intructors who jumped into teaching way before their time. I've lost count of how many people I met whose ultimate goal was to teach and open their own dojo.  It's up to you to figure out if he/she is a good fit.

A lot of people have left BBT because they feel the art itself was too historical and not realistic.  Again, find a good instructor, but then again it may be the student...  I've seen people in Japan do something completely different than what was shown because they couldn't do it and justified it with saying Henka is part of the art.

Learning the basics has been priority one.  Learning how to make a waza "live" was always there.  The trend of "alive" training is amusing.  I'm not sure it makes English grammatical sense either?  
But making a waza live does make sense and the people training close to Soke knew what he meant.  Training can be an endurance test.  The word "nin" in Japanese also means to endure.  

Put it this way:  I raised my eyebrow in amazement when I was told it takes about a year to learn to properly punch.  I thought really?  I can punch!!  I mean how hard is it?  Then I went to Japan and learned the proper method and it is tough!!  I can see why it takes a year.  But once you learn it wow!  

There are good instructors out there.  You have to find them.  I know one instructor who chastises his students to go train with other people.  Make sure what he is doing is correct.  

Sorry, didn't mean to get long winded but I hope this helps.


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## DocWard (Apr 23, 2009)

MMcGuirk said:


> If I may add, it is up to the student to find a good teacher. Convenience of location is not a factor in my opinion. I've met people who refused to drive 20 minutes or more for a dojo. I personally have commuted 2hrs one way for 11 years just to train, not counting my university days. I also met a couple of 1980's students who had to commute 8 hours one way, so mine is not so bad.


 
I'm currently an early forties married attorney, father of two, who is also dedicating "one weekend a month" to the National Guard. I don't mind a bit of a commute, but I also want to be realistic, which is why I asked about the ability to use DVDs as adjuncts, and that sort of thing.



> there are a lot of intructors who jumped into teaching way before their time. I've lost count of how many people I met whose ultimate goal was to teach and open their own dojo. It's up to you to figure out if he/she is a good fit.


 
I agree, but I also like to get opinions of experienced people when and where I can. It does help in the long run. Also, since the dojo I am looking at is not really the primary business of the people running the dojo, and since they bring in others who seem to have some respect by others here, I would guess your first concern doesn't necessarily apply.



> A lot of people have left BBT because they feel the art itself was too historical and not realistic.


 


> I hope this helps.


 
Thanks, every little bit does.


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## MMcGuirk (Apr 23, 2009)

Maybe this will help you also.  

http://www.midwestbujinkantaikai.org/
This should give you a flavor of the variety of people out there.


You have some great instructors who come out to your area also.  

Good luck!


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