# Planning for a Knife attack



## NinjaChristian (Apr 16, 2016)

What is a good concealable weapon to counter a knife attack? I am considering buying a baton of some sort, interested in the extendable. Would a baton do well against a knife? I could also carry a knife, which would be less conspicuous since where I live most people carry knives simply out of necessity (a lot of farms).


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 16, 2016)

I don't tend to go anywhere that I will likely end up being attacked by someone with a knife, but why not be prepared?


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## jks9199 (Apr 16, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> What is a good concealable weapon to counter a knife attack? I am considering buying a baton of some sort, interested in the extendable. Would a baton do well against a knife? I could also carry a knife, which would be less conspicuous since where I live most people carry knives simply out of necessity (a lot of farms).


A gun.

A baton, in the right and properly trained hands, can be used effectively against a knife -- but there's a lot in those qualifications.  Feel free to plug "knife" in for baton, and it'll be equally true.

Here's the reality: if someone is attacking you with a knife and halfway capable, the first clue you'll have is when you're bleeding.  Outside of movies, you don't have someone draw and present their weapon, stating "You killed my father, prepare to die."  You MAY have a weapon brandished in a robbery attempt -- but even then, it's often implied rather than shown.


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## Blindside (Apr 16, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> What is a good concealable weapon to counter a knife attack? I am considering buying a baton of some sort, interested in the extendable. Would a baton do well against a knife? I could also carry a knife, which would be less conspicuous since where I live most people carry knives simply out of necessity (a lot of farms).



Concealable?  A pistol.

I spend a stupid amount of time on knife and stick stuff and I still wouldn't preferentially go for a knife.  I carry a knife all the time but more as a tool that a SD weapon.  If I was seriously concerned that I was actually going to run into a guy with bad intentions and a knife I would be regularly carrying my Glock.  A collapsible baton is just as much of a PITA to carry as my gun is, so I can't see why I would pack that around.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 16, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> A gun.
> 
> A baton, in the right and properly trained hands, can be used effectively against a knife -- but there's a lot in those qualifications.  Feel free to plug "knife" in for baton, and it'll be equally true.
> 
> Here's the reality: if someone is attacking you with a knife and halfway capable, the first clue you'll have is when you're bleeding.  Outside of movies, you don't have someone draw and present their weapon, stating "You killed my father, prepare to die."  You MAY have a weapon brandished in a robbery attempt -- but even then, it's often implied rather than shown.



This. Read it again. One more time...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 16, 2016)

To be honest, no weapon will really help you, for the reason that JKS said. Even if you do manage to notice in time, the chances are that you won't have time to get your weapon. And if someone's threatening you with a knife and see you going for your weapon, they aren't gonna just wait and let you pull it out.


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## crazydiamond (Apr 17, 2016)

Assuming, as others mentioned you could get it out and ready in time  -and you have been train in it - you could do okay against a knife with a baton

However depending on were you live you may have to check the legalities of a baton. I was very surprised in my state in the USA that I could farily easily get a concealed gun permit, but in no way shape or form is their a permit for a extendable baton, they are illegal. Guess we need a national baton association.  Knife laws are a bit more tricky - and a 3 inch karambit is legal to carry. So I carry one of those.


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 17, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> A gun.


I'm sorry, I meant to write it in my post, but I meant besides guns.


jks9199 said:


> Here's the reality: if someone is attacking you with a knife and halfway capable, the first clue you'll have is when you're bleeding. Outside of movies, you don't have someone draw and present their weapon, stating "You killed my father, prepare to die." You MAY have a weapon brandished in a robbery attempt -- but even then, it's often implied rather than shown.


If it is most likely that by the time I notice that I am being attacked that the attacker is right on top of me, how would a gun be of any help? Wouldn't a weapon that can be used easily at close range be more effective? This is of course assuming I can actually draw the weapon in time. However, if they open with the line "You killed my father, prepare to die." than I am going to assume they are a master swordsman and and run for my life! 

general question: which situation would you least want to be in, and which would you prefer over the others: your hands vs knife, a baton vs knife, a knife vs knife? This is assuming that the distance has already closed, but you have had time to draw and present your weapon before the first strike is thrown.

another question: If the distance closes to fast for a gun to be used, is it any more likely that a knife, baton or other weapon of the kind can be used?


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## crazydiamond (Apr 17, 2016)

In order of most preferred to least.  Baton vs Knife, Knife vs Knife, Fist vs knife.

I have trained in all.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2016)

A gun, with practice and carried in a reasonable manner, can be deployed and fired at contact ranges, even if you've been stabbed and even fairly significantly wounded.  As in, when you're in a condition that you would NOT be able to use a baton or your empty hands effectively.  It takes practice, and proper training -- but it can be done reliably.

If I had to choose what to go up against someone with a knife, my first choice would be a rifle, from a comfortable distance.  Since that probably negates any argument of self defense, my next choice would be a gun.  I can move and use empty hand techniques to create distance and get myself time to act with the gun.  If I can't use a gun -- a baton at least gives me a bit more reach, and something less vulnerable than flesh to perhaps intercept the blade... but the truth comes down to a knife having a huge advantage, and neither the baton or empty hands alone are satisfactory.


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 17, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> In order of most preferred to least. Baton vs Knife, Knife vs Knife, Fist vs knife.


can you explain why you would prefer a baton over a knife against a knife? I have not trained weapon vs weapon before, but my gut feeling is that a baton has defencive properties that a knife does not have, while a knife can deal more damage but you are more likely to get stabbed yourself.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2016)

Assuming I have it out and am able to use it? Most will disagree but for me, first is hand vs. knife, then knife vs knife then baton vs. knife.
The reason baton is last is because I have never been trained with a baton. I fenced, but that doesn't focus on self defense, so not really a risk I would want to take.
As for knife or fist-i have trained both. Knife vs knife I do very well...in knife sparring. When my opponent acts as someone attempting to attack me, who is not concerned or does not know about self preservation, my success rate shoots way down. I do not have a high success rate with hand vs knife either (anyone who does is a genius, or their partner is not truly trying to attack them) but it is slightly better than my knife SD success rate.
If the knife would intimidate the person trying to attack me though, knife goes to the top of my list. Much more confident if they're scared of my knife.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> can you explain why you would prefer a baton over a knife against a knife? I have not trained weapon vs weapon before, but my gut feeling is that a baton has defencive properties that a knife does not have, while a knife can deal more damage but you are more likely to get stabbed yourself.



It is longer and it works more quickly.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> If it is most likely that by the time I notice that I am being attacked that the attacker is right on top of me, how would a gun be of any help? Wouldn't a weapon that can be used easily at close range be more effective? This is of course assuming I can actually draw the weapon in time. However, if they open with the line "You killed my father, prepare to die." than I am going to assume they are a master swordsman and and run for my life!



It's extremely rare for a knife wound to be immediately lethal or disabling. And guns are quite effective at close range. They don't even require room to swing your arm.


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## lklawson (Apr 18, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> If it is most likely that by the time I notice that I am being attacked that the attacker is right on top of me, how would a gun be of any help?


First thing to remember is that *ALL* weapons are "Force Multipliers."  A firearm requires less training and practice time to reach a minimum skill level than any other weapon.  A firearm requires less physicality (strength and athleticism) than any other weapon.  A firearm more effectively acts as a Force Multiplier than most other weapons with similar size and weight constraints.



> Wouldn't a weapon that can be used easily at close range be more effective?


A firearm can be quite effectively used at close range.  There are many cases where a firearm has been effectively deployed at "Contact Range."



> This is of course assuming I can actually draw the weapon in time.


True for any weapon.



> general question: which situation would you least want to be in, and which would you prefer over the others: your hands vs knife, a baton vs knife, a knife vs knife? This is assuming that the distance has already closed, but you have had time to draw and present your weapon before the first strike is thrown.


The firearm is the PREIMENENT weapon of our time.  Literally, nothing else performs the role as well.  That said, it is not for everyone.  While a firearm requires less training for effective use than other weapons, it does still require training from a qualified instructor and that may not be available to you.  It also must be legal to carry and use, and that, as we all well know, is varied depending upon location and even the age of the user.  And, unfortunately, there is an illogical and undeserved stigma attached to firearms which may deter its use for any number of reasons.



> another question: If the distance closes to fast for a gun to be used, is it any more likely that a knife, baton or other weapon of the kind can be used?


This is a myth.  Firearms are fine as close in weapons and there's no reason in the world disqualifying one as "too fast for a gun to be used" which would not equally disqualify any other weapon.

If you cannot, or will not, use a firearm for whatever reason, I prefer a cane in defense.  An expanding baton may be equally disqualified for you but is an OK option if a cane is not.  Another knife can sometimes be effective.  All of these option require vastly more training and physicality than the firearm, but there you have it.

A good set of cut/stab-proof undergarment are also quite effective.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 18, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> I have not trained weapon vs weapon before


Honestly, I'd recommend discussing this subject with a Weapons For Self Defense instructor.  While I have found hit-or-miss quality in the RBSD (Reality Based Self Defense) martial arts arena, that'd be a much better place to ask these questions than on the 'net.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Concealable?  A pistol.
> 
> I spend a stupid amount of time on knife and stick stuff and I still wouldn't preferentially go for a knife.  I carry a knife all the time but more as a tool that a SD weapon.  If I was seriously concerned that I was actually going to run into a guy with bad intentions and a knife I would be regularly carrying my Glock.  A collapsible baton is just as much of a PITA to carry as my gun is, so I can't see why I would pack that around.


There's also the fact that in many places a baton, oddly, is more illegal than a gun. In NC, I can get a CWP to carry my Glock, but I cannot get a legal permit to carry an ASP baton. I've been informed by a few sources that if I used one in a fight, and wasn't working security and carrying it as part of my standard gear (and I'm not a security agent, so I wouldn't be), then I'd be in trouble.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2016)

lklawson said:


> First thing to remember is that *ALL* weapons are "Force Multipliers."  A firearm requires less training and practice time to reach a minimum skill level than any other weapon.  A firearm requires less physicality (strength and athleticism) than any other weapon.  A firearm more effectively acts as a Force Multiplier than most other weapons with similar size and weight constraints.
> 
> A firearm can be quite effectively used at close range.  There are many cases where a firearm has been effectively deployed at "Contact Range."
> 
> ...


Yes. All of this. The knife-beats-gun argument is based upon the knife user having his weapon out, and the gun being holstered (it was research for LEO's facing armed suspects). You could swap the two weapons (gun out, knife sheathed) and the numbers swing drastically in the other direction...then they keep going, because the gun-wielder need not get within range of the knife.

I favor a cane, because even the TSA can't take it away from me. I do need one from time to time (crappy knees, highly arthritic toe), and develop an amazing limp when I get near airport security checkpoints. Odd, that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I favor a cane, because even the TSA can't take it away from me. I do need one from time to time (crappy knees, highly arthritic toe), and develop an amazing limp when I get near airport security checkpoints. Odd, that.


If you want something like that, wear a sarong as a scarf as well. Now you have two weapons you can grab easily depending on the situation!


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 20, 2016)

Thanks everybody for the answers


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 20, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> I'm sorry, I meant to write it in my post, but I meant besides guns.
> 
> If it is most likely that by the time I notice that I am being attacked that the attacker is right on top of me, how would a gun be of any help? Wouldn't a weapon that can be used easily at close range be more effective? This is of course assuming I can actually draw the weapon in time. However, if they open with the line "You killed my father, prepare to die." than I am going to assume they are a master swordsman and and run for my life!
> 
> ...



I always tell people that if you need a gun, you need it in your hand, not playing quick draw McGraw.  I think it is the same for any other weapon.  That doesn't negate anything jks9199 has said, except most people won't be carrying a gun in the manner he described, unless it is outside your clothing and you have a fast release holster and you are practiced using it; preferably under stress.

I have trained unarmed defense against a knife.  I have learned some really good defenses.  I still wouldn't want to have to use any of them if there were any way at all I could avoid it.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 20, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I always tell people that if you need a gun, you need it in your hand, not playing quick draw McGraw.  I think it is the same for any other weapon.  That doesn't negate anything jks9199 has said, except most people won't be carrying a gun in the manner he described, unless it is outside your clothing and you have a fast release holster and you are practiced using it; preferably under stress.
> 
> I have trained unarmed defense against a knife.  I have learned some really good defenses.  I still wouldn't want to have to use any of them if there were any way at all I could avoid it.



I also train unarmed defense. But part of the reason for doing so is to gain time and opportunity to access a weapon of my own. If I can keep you from killing me for a couple seconds, that is time enough to shoot you. (Note: That is a generic, not specific, you. I have no reason to think you personally would ever attack me.)


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 20, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I also train unarmed defense. But part of the reason for doing so is to gain time and opportunity to access a weapon of my own. If I can keep you from killing me for a couple seconds, that is time enough to shoot you. *(Note: That is a generic, not specific, you. I have no reason to think you personally would ever attack me.*)


 
Ahhhuuuh.  I thought you were going to put some excitement in my life.  

I don't doubt either you experience nor your training.  But I think if you are close enough for me to get my hands on you (otherwise, of course, the situation changes), that would be a better tactic for me.  Just my opinion.  I have never had to put that into operation.  The one time I considered it, (and I had not studied defensive tactics then) I was afraid of innocent bystanders being shot by an M-16 on auto.  Probably saved my life.  When it got to the point we scuffled, he was quite a scrapper and I don't know what would have happened if I had grabbed his weapon at first.


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## Paul_D (Apr 20, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> I don't tend to go anywhere that I will likely end up being attacked by someone with a knife, but why not be prepared?


You are unlikely to collapse and have a heart attack, but why not take a defribilator with you everywhere, why not be prepared?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 20, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> You are unlikely to collapse and have a heart attack, but why not take a defribilator with you everywhere, why not be prepared?



Not the same thing at all. It is statistically unlikely that any individual will be attacked, but I _*have*_ been, more than once. In part because my career choice puts me in contact with, and therefore at risk from, unstable people. This is one of many reasons why I have spent some much time and energy training for armed and unarmed combat.

You cannot use a defibrillator on yourself. You can, however, be prepared by exercising regularly, watching your diet, not smoking, not drinking to excess, and treating other controllable risk factors for cardiac disease such as high cholesterol and hypertension.

Protecting yourself is a good idea, whether it is against an attacker or a medical condition.


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## Paul_D (Apr 20, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Protecting yourself is a good idea, whether it is against an attacker or a medical condition.


I didn't protecting yourself is not a good idea.

What I am saying is that protecting yourself agasint things which you admit are unlikely to happen, is not the best use of your time an effort.  It is better to concentrate on proetcitng yourself from things which are likely to happen.

I live in the UK, I will almost certainly go my entire life without ever seeing a real gun, it woud be pointless then to wear a bullet proof vest everytime I leave the house on the off chance that something whcih is highly unliely to ever happen, might just happen.  It woud make more sense to look at the crime staticts for where you live and look at what you are most likely to experience, and prepare for that.


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## lklawson (Apr 21, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Ahhhuuuh.  I thought you were going to put some excitement in my life.
> 
> I don't doubt either you experience nor your training.  But I think if you are close enough for me to get my hands on you (otherwise, of course, the situation changes), that would be a better tactic for me.


Of course.

The cardinal rules for unarmed against a weapon are

get out of range
in case of failure of #1, control the weapon/weapon bearing limb
Because it's really hard to "get out of range" of a firearm, #2 looks like a really good option and everyone knows this.  That's why Weapons Retention and Deployment While Under Attack are skills often taught to LEO and non-LEO SD Carry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 21, 2016)

Since it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming with enough time to draw a weapon, it seems that the best defence is to know hand techniques to control the weapon bearing limb, than neutralize the threat, or at least gain enough distance to draw your own weapon or get away. Might be somewhat restating part iklawson's post.


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## Tgace (Apr 21, 2016)

TDA Training: Of Knives, Guns and 21 feet (guest post by tgace)

1. You MUST solve the positional problem BEFORE you try to acquire your firearm and engage the threat. This means you may have to move off the line of threat, or go hands on with the threat until you can improve your position sufficiently to ensure that you have the time and space to draw and deliver deadly force.

2. You must RETAIN your weapon. SouthNarc teaches shooting from a high “two” position, with the pistol tucked in close to the body and the firing thumb indexed along the pectoral muscle. Support side arm in a horizontal or vertical “elbow shield”, utilizing the bone structure to provide sufficient space between you and your threat so you can work the trigger and not get foul the slide or get it forced out of battery.

3. It’s going to be hard, fast, and ugly.

4. If you stand still and try to draw your gun and pull the trigger while a big ape is stacking your sh**, you will not prevail.

5. Movement, strikes, and working to the flank, getting dominant position, and THEN lighting up the bad guy is the goal.



Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 21, 2016)

I haven't read all the posts, but I hope you will reconsider. I'm not sure what your circumstances are or why you are planning to attack someone with a knife, but I am sure that there are better ways to deal with your problems. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 22, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> Since it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming with enough time to draw a weapon, it seems that the best defence is to know hand techniques to control the weapon bearing limb, than neutralize the threat, or at least gain enough distance to draw your own weapon or get away. Might be somewhat restating part iklawson's post.



I am curious if that is true; that it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming.  I think often an attacker may wish to brandish it for the fear it invokes, hoping to increase the chance to make the attack more effective.  Granted you will not always see it coming, but just seeing someone approach with at least one hand hidden behind the back is an indication of some kind of weapon.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Tgace said:


> TDA Training: Of Knives, Guns and 21 feet (guest post by tgace)
> 
> 1. You MUST solve the positional problem BEFORE you try to acquire your firearm and engage the threat. This means you may have to move off the line of threat, or go hands on with the threat until you can improve your position sufficiently to ensure that you have the time and space to draw and deliver deadly force.
> 
> ...



Excellent links.  Worth a read by all.  Thanks tgace.


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 22, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I haven't read all the posts, but I hope you will reconsider. I'm not sure what your circumstances are or why you are planning to attack someone with a knife, but I am sure that there are better ways to deal with your problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not planning to attack someone with a knife (nor would I ever) I am planning on how I might be _prepared_ for a knife attack. read the first post.


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## lklawson (Apr 22, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I haven't read all the posts, but I hope you will reconsider. I'm not sure what your circumstances are or why you are planning to attack someone with a knife, but I am sure that there are better ways to deal with your problems.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Humor?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## NinjaChristian (Apr 22, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I am curious if that is true; that it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming.  I think often an attacker may wish to brandish it for the fear it invokes, hoping to increase the chance to make the attack more effective.  Granted you will not always see it coming, but just seeing someone approach with at least one hand hidden behind the back is an indication of some kind of weapon.


I suppose it depends on where you live, and where you tend to be. I would hope, in any case, that I would see the knife, or at least be suspicious and aware of the attacker before the attack happens. 
Another general question: is it possible, to defend against further injury(more stabs/slashes) after being being stabbed from behind? This is assuming that you are not aware of the attack and the only indication you have that something is up is a terrible pain in your side(or wherever you happen to be stabbed ) and perhaps a hand holding your shoulder at the moment of the pain; also assuming that the attacker is untrained(does not know the best way to incapacitate someone with a knife, just knows how to stab and slash at the trunk or whatever very quickly) but absolutely determined to make sure you don't get up. I am only saying against an untrained opponent because someone who has trained with a knife likely will know how to incapacitate someone with fewer stabs than someone who is just stabbing randomly at the trunk; making any reaction against a trained opponent when they attack you from behind seems unlikely, since they would be able to pinpoint a vital area and attack it. Though at this point it seems to me even against an untrained, sloppy attacker, that the chances of defending yourself after being injured are pretty slim.


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## jks9199 (Apr 22, 2016)

Most describe the feeling as being punched, and they are often unaware they've been stabbed until someone informs them that they are bleeding.  Most people underestimate the speed, the surprise, and the violence of any attack -- especially a knife attack.  Spend some time on the web; see what videos of knife attacks come up.  Many if not all will be from prisons because that's one of the settings most likely to actually capture attacks on video...




  (prison)
Video: Shocking knife attack caught on police body camera - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (Police body cam out of Belfast)

Look into "ambush defenses"  -- the principles apply whether discussing an ambush grab & strike or stab.  Your immediately goals include to minimize further damage and seek space to regroup and figure out what you need to do.  It's harder than yo think...


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 25, 2016)

NinjaChristian said:


> I suppose it depends on where you live, and where you tend to be. I would hope, in any case, that I would see the knife, or at least be suspicious and aware of the attacker before the attack happens.
> Another general question: is it possible, to defend against further injury(more stabs/slashes) after being being stabbed from behind? This is assuming that you are not aware of the attack and the only indication you have that something is up is a terrible pain in your side(or wherever you happen to be stabbed ) and perhaps a hand holding your shoulder at the moment of the pain; also assuming that the attacker is untrained(does not know the best way to incapacitate someone with a knife, just knows how to stab and slash at the trunk or whatever very quickly) but absolutely determined to make sure you don't get up. I am only saying against an untrained opponent because someone who has trained with a knife likely will know how to incapacitate someone with fewer stabs than someone who is just stabbing randomly at the trunk; making any reaction against a trained opponent when they attack you from behind seems unlikely, since they would be able to pinpoint a vital area and attack it. Though at this point it seems to me even against an untrained, sloppy attacker, that the chances of defending yourself after being injured are pretty slim.



See the post of jks9199 above. 

I have never been stabbed by nor threatened by a knife, so it is difficult to say exactly what I would do.  For all I know I might start jumping up and down and screaming like a little kid.  But I don't think so.  I have some experience with being in threatening situations.  I would hope, and expect, that if I am on my feet, I should be able to turn and engage an attacker who attacked me from behind.  Then his attacks would be from the front, which I have some training in surviving.

As to having training with a knife and being able to put me on the ground, again, see what jks9199 said.  Those who can instantly incapacitate or instantly kill with a knife are probably rare.  But if avoidable, why would anyone want to take a chance?


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2016)

The video, although flagged as coming from the Belfast newspaper, is actually from the mainland. If it had been in NI the chap with the knife would have been shot as the PSNI are all armed, they also carry off duty as being a police officer in Northern Ireland is a dangerous career choice.


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## jks9199 (Apr 25, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The video, although flagged as coming from the Belfast newspaper, is actually from the mainland. If it had been in NI the chap with the knife would have been shot as the PSNI are all armed, they also carry off duty as being a police officer in Northern Ireland is a dangerous career choice.


Thanks for the clarification.  I'm limited to the info that's in the link. I do wish they'd shown the video without so many interruptions...


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 25, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have never been stabbed by nor threatened by a knife, so it is difficult to say exactly what I would do.  For all I know I might start jumping up and down and screaming like a little kid.



Which might not actually be a bad response... it could potentially distract the assailant, giving you an opportunity to run or attack while they're distracted. It could also, potentially, disable to attacker when they start laughing.
I bet Master Ken could do 10 minutes on how effective this technique could be...


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.  I'm limited to the info that's in the link. I do wish they'd shown the video without so many interruptions...



It's actually a trailer for a television programme. It might be available on You Tube?


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## Hyoho (Apr 26, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> In order of most preferred to least.  Baton vs Knife, Knife vs Knife, Fist vs knife.
> 
> I have trained in all.


But it wont help you if I shoot you!


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## lklawson (Apr 26, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> But it wont help you if I shoot you!


"Dying" ain't "dead."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> If you want something like that, wear a sarong as a scarf as well. Now you have two weapons you can grab easily depending on the situation!


I have no training that makes the sarong useful to me - I'd love to pick up some.


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2016)

I still think cracking a guy in the face has about the same success rate as catching the arm. 

Both are hail marys. 

But with striking you can be removing yourself from the situation.


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## lklawson (May 2, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> If you want something like that, wear a sarong as a scarf as well. Now you have two weapons you can grab easily depending on the situation!


And you could be ever so dapper.







Peace favor  your sword,
Kirk


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## KangTsai (May 5, 2016)

It's difficult to sew your way with a kitchen knife into a guy when he wears leather, I guess.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 6, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I have no training that makes the sarong useful to me - I'd love to pick up some.



If you ever get to Vegas look me up and I will show you some Sarong!


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## lklawson (May 6, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> It's difficult to sew your way with a kitchen knife into a guy when he wears leather, I guess.


Care to expound upon that statement?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> If you ever get to Vegas look me up and I will show you some Sarong!


Why does that wink worry me, Brian?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I still think cracking a guy in the face has about the same success rate as catching the arm.
> 
> Both are hail marys.
> 
> But with striking you can be removing yourself from the situation.


Both are situational. I can even think of a few situations where both at the same time (trapping block and a shot to the face) might be reasonable.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> It's difficult to sew your way with a kitchen knife into a guy when he wears leather, I guess.


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## lklawson (May 10, 2016)

drop bear said:


>


Yup.  There's a huge difference between soft, chrome tanned, thin, leather clothing and heavy, thick, hardened leather "armor."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## KangTsai (May 15, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Care to expound upon that statement?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I meant that I guess it is hard to stab through a leather jacket with the average knife.


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## Dirty Dog (May 15, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I meant that I guess it is hard to stab through a leather jacket with the average knife.



Depends on the leather. Depends on the knife.
Most leather jackets that I see are really not that thick, and wouldn't be much protection against most knives.


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## lklawson (May 16, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I meant that I guess it is hard to stab through a leather jacket with the average knife.


Do what I did.  Go to Goodwill and buy a few.  

My conclusion, after testing, is that most modern leather jackets are better than nothing but don't offer any more actual protection than a normal quilted winter coat.  Sometimes less.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on the leather. Depends on the knife.
> Most leather jackets that I see are really not that thick, and wouldn't be much protection against most knives.


Agreed. Perhaps a good motorcycling jacket would provide some protection, but fashion leather is not much better than cloth of the same thickness.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Perhaps a good motorcycling jacket would provide some protection, but fashion leather is not much better than cloth of the same thickness.


This reminds me of a video I saw for a backpack. They were advertising the theft-resistant features, including un-slashable straps. They made a grey shirt out of the strap material and a guy put it on under a white dress shirt. They then cut him up with a mat knife. The white shirt was entirely shredded, but he was untouched and there were no perceptible marks on the grey shirt. I thought, "To hell with the backpack - I want the grey shirt!"


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## Juany118 (May 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. All of this. The knife-beats-gun argument is based upon the knife user having his weapon out, and the gun being holstered (it was research for LEO's facing armed suspects). You could swap the two weapons (gun out, knife sheathed) and the numbers swing drastically in the other direction...then they keep going, because the gun-wielder need not get within range of the knife.
> 
> I favor a cane, because even the TSA can't take it away from me. I do need one from time to time (crappy knees, highly arthritic toe), and develop an amazing limp when I get near airport security checkpoints. Odd, that.



True but one also has to remember something else on your first point.  You can have a knife ready to use and it can't be seen, especially in low light conditions, far more often than a gun. This is especially true if the subject has the knife held in a reverse grip or if it is a fast deploying folder like a Spiderco or one of the plethora of "assisted" knives like the Gerber I routinely carry.

That is one of the reasons why, unlike on TV, a well trained officer will NOT say "show me your hands" they will instead say, "don't move" because the act of "showing" the hands and preparing an attack can be very similar.  Same applies to subjects you suspect may have a firearm on their person (their back is to you, hand at waist band etcetera.)


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## drop bear (Jun 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> This reminds me of a video I saw for a backpack. They were advertising the theft-resistant features, including un-slashable straps. They made a grey shirt out of the strap material and a guy put it on under a white dress shirt. They then cut him up with a mat knife. The white shirt was entirely shredded, but he was untouched and there were no perceptible marks on the grey shirt. I thought, "To hell with the backpack - I want the grey shirt!"


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on the leather. Depends on the knife.
> Most leather jackets that I see are really not that thick, and wouldn't be much protection against most knives.


Leather jackets aren't made with knife stabs and knife slashes in mind.  It's safer to assume that all leather jackets will fail to prevent a knife stable or slash.


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## Juany118 (Jun 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Leather jackets aren't made with knife stabs and knife slashes in mind.  It's safer to assume that all leather jackets will fail to prevent a knife stable or slash.



Yep.  My wife is a dedicated Motorcyclist and has some hardcore decent leather jackets for that purpose.  I also have a friend that is into historic Medieval reenactment and swordsmanship.  He has some leather armor that is made to the specs of the period.  The two are VERY different.  I would trust a biker jacket to stop the slash of my Gerber folder (but be damaged), it may slow, but not enough to matter, a thrust from its tanto point.  If I was using an actual combat knife, K-Bar, Bowie, Kukri, forget about it, the leather Jacket would lose.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> True but one also has to remember something else on your first point.  You can have a knife ready to use and it can't be seen, especially in low light conditions, far more often than a gun. This is especially true if the subject has the knife held in a reverse grip or if it is a fast deploying folder like a Spiderco or one of the plethora of "assisted" knives like the Gerber I routinely carry.
> 
> That is one of the reasons why, unlike on TV, a well trained officer will NOT say "show me your hands" they will instead say, "don't move" because the act of "showing" the hands and preparing an attack can be very similar.  Same applies to subjects you suspect may have a firearm on their person (their back is to you, hand at waist band etcetera.)



That is no longer knife-v-gun territory, because the defender (in this case, the guy with the gun) isn't defending against a knife - he never sees it. In that case, you're maybe better off with empty hands than a gun.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Leather jackets aren't made with knife stabs and knife slashes in mind.  It's safer to assume that all leather jackets will fail to prevent a knife stable or slash.



Of course they aren't. They're clothing, not body armor.
Now, if I have the opportunity to wrap the leather around my arm (perhaps I'm carrying, not wearing, the jacket) then it becomes possible to deflect a blade with it with reasonable success. At least for a limited number of cuts. In my case, it only has to hold up long enough for me to shoot the bad guy...


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## Juany118 (Jun 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That is no longer knife-v-gun territory, because the defender (in this case, the guy with the gun) isn't defending against a knife - he never sees it. In that case, you're maybe better off with empty hands than a gun.



Oh you are right.  I was simply trying to point out the ultimate danger of a knife, it has a greater element of surprise.  On the job I am actually more concerned about knives than guns.  They can penetrate my vest, are more quickly deployed and can even be ready when you are unprepared.  One of the reasons I chose a school that teaches both Inosanto Kali and WC wasn't just the Sifu's attitude towards teaching but I have always felt knowing how to use a weapon allows you to better defend against said weapon.  

For people not regularly training in knife defense, if they can carry a pistol, I usually suggest that they learn tactics and/or maneuvers that permit them to disengage rapidly, gain distance and get to that gun.  Even if you know knife disarms, if you are facing a skilled knife fighter, you are likely not getting away unscathed if you just go for a disarm control.  It's actually safer, imo, to train as I note above, get that distance and then turn a knife fight into a gun fight.  If you don't have a gun get that distance and pick up your own weapon, even if improvised, from your environment, and go for that hand.  Hit someone solid on a hand with a pool cue, bottle of booze, tray like you get at a food court in the mall etc and they are likely dropping it.  Open hand vs knife should be a last resort.


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## Juany118 (Jun 2, 2016)

As an aside, I think this topic isn't covered enough in self defense circles.  The US, over all, has never really been a knife culture.  Fist fights, wrestling, brawls, guns, these are the most common forms of violence you encountered of the streets.  However, even if they have no formal Art there are certain cultures in Latin America that are knife cultures, your "fist fight" being a knife fight.  So along with immigration add in the growing popularity of FMA, fueled in part by Hollywood with the Bourne Franchise, Taken, Jack Reacher, etc. (Heck I have seen FMA slapped onto the glass of existing strip mall Martial Arts Schools).  While the chances of you being involved in a violent encounter are low, due to the above factors I believe it logical to assume we will see an increase in violent acts involving knives sometime in the future and so the old saying "forewarned is forearmed" comes to mind.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> As an aside, I think this topic isn't covered enough in self defense circles.  The US, over all, has never really been a knife culture.  Fist fights, wrestling, brawls, guns, these are the most common forms of violence you encountered of the streets.  However, even if they have no formal Art there are certain cultures in Latin America that are knife cultures, your "fist fight" being a knife fight.  So along with immigration add in the growing popularity of FMA, fueled in part by Hollywood with the Bourne Franchise, Taken, Jack Reacher, etc. (Heck I have seen FMA slapped onto the glass of existing strip mall Martial Arts Schools).  While the chances of you being involved in a violent encounter are low, due to the above factors I believe it logical to assume we will see an increase in violent acts involving knives sometime in the future and so the old saying "forewarned is forearmed" comes to mind.


I made this thread a while back. You may find the video and comments interesting
The danger of knives


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## Juany118 (Jun 2, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I made this thread a while back. You may find the video and comments interesting
> The danger of knives



Yeah I use video when people try to tell me the "reactionary gap" is a myth.  There is actually a video MythBusters did.  Their gap was something like 18 feet vs 21 but the person doing the running with the knife was Jamie Hyneman and neither of those guys are what I would call athletic lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh you are right.  I was simply trying to point out the ultimate danger of a knife, it has a greater element of surprise.  On the job I am actually more concerned about knives than guns.  They can penetrate my vest, are more quickly deployed and can even be ready when you are unprepared.  One of the reasons I chose a school that teaches both Inosanto Kali and WC wasn't just the Sifu's attitude towards teaching but I have always felt knowing how to use a weapon allows you to better defend against said weapon.
> 
> For people not regularly training in knife defense, if they can carry a pistol, I usually suggest that they learn tactics and/or maneuvers that permit them to disengage rapidly, gain distance and get to that gun.  Even if you know knife disarms, if you are facing a skilled knife fighter, you are likely not getting away unscathed if you just go for a disarm control.  It's actually safer, imo, to train as I note above, get that distance and then turn a knife fight into a gun fight.  If you don't have a gun get that distance and pick up your own weapon, even if improvised, from your environment, and go for that hand.  Hit someone solid on a hand with a pool cue, bottle of booze, tray like you get at a food court in the mall etc and they are likely dropping it.  Open hand vs knife should be a last resort.



Agreed. Any weapon you're competent with gives two advantages: more focused strike (usually harder surface) and potentially something besides skin to absorb slashes (especially that tray you mentioned). Some also give you some extension, so you can stay away from the blade. Most people I've met who carry a gun would be better off not trying to use it in that situation, though. They've not trained their draw nearly enough, partly because most ranges don't allow it. They would likely not get clear of the holster before the attacker closed distance again. Heck, one holster I used was a little too good at retention; someone using it for daily carry would be at risk of not getting out of the holster at all with panic-numbed, sweaty hands.

All of that presupposes awareness of the knife. As you said, it's an easy weapon to deploy and hard to see under non-optimal circumstances. I train students in knife disarms simply because they're unlikely to be aware of the knife before they engage it, so they need to know what to do if they get ahold of an arm that has a pointy end. And I agree about training to use as a path to training to defend. If nothing else, training with trained users yields better attacks to work against. I've been working on material to add to my curriculum for that reason, leveraging what I've picked up over the years. (Note to self: it's about time to go brush up on knife work somewhere.)


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## Juany118 (Jun 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Any weapon you're competent with gives two advantages: more focused strike (usually harder surface) and potentially something besides skin to absorb slashes (especially that tray you mentioned). Some also give you some extension, so you can stay away from the blade. Most people I've met who carry a gun would be better off not trying to use it in that situation, though. They've not trained their draw nearly enough, partly because most ranges don't allow it. They would likely not get clear of the holster before the attacker closed distance again. Heck, one holster I used was a little too good at retention; someone using it for daily carry would be at risk of not getting out of the holster at all with panic-numbed, sweaty hands.
> 
> All of that presupposes awareness of the knife. As you said, it's an easy weapon to deploy and hard to see under non-optimal circumstances. I train students in knife disarms simply because they're unlikely to be aware of the knife before they engage it, so they need to know what to do if they get ahold of an arm that has a pointy end. And I agree about training to use as a path to training to defend. If nothing else, training with trained users yields better attacks to work against. I've been working on material to add to my curriculum for that reason, leveraging what I've picked up over the years. (Note to self: it's about time to go brush up on knife work somewhere.)



Agreed on the training/firearm issue.  I usually ask people who carry for personal protection "do you practice stress shooting, reactive shooting and how to draw and shoot, safely, if your opponent is in melee range?" If the answer is "no" then I say, "please don't bother carrying it then because all you can do is basically shoot a bad guy from ambush and if you are actually defending yourself you will get crushed and a bad guy now has your gun."


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## lklawson (Jun 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> As an aside, I think this topic isn't covered enough in self defense circles.  The US, over all, has never really been a knife culture.


Well, actually, yes, it was.  But it's generations gone now.

Many of the cultures which came to the U.S. were "knife cultures."  The Spanish with the navaja and, later, the Italians with the stiletto were examples but there are many more.  

Most notably, however, the Bowie Knife "craze" which lasted for decades, bookending the U.S. Civil War, definitely was a "knife culture."  Bowie Knives were kit for soldiers. Bowie knives and "longknives" (such as the Arkansas Toothpick) were kit for trappers and longhunters.  Bowie Knives were fashion accessories for politicians and gentlemen.  Bowie Knife duels were fought in the Arkansas state house and in New Orleans beneath what is now referred to as "The Dueling Oaks."  Heck, Lincoln's bodyguard was known to carry a Bowie Knife.  The U.S. totally had a "knife culture." 

But over-hyped newspaper accounts of the time then, as now ("if it bleeds it leads"), lead to a public push, and political "do something" movement, which outlawed the carrying and use of Bowie Knives.  You can still see it in many state laws which specifically name out Bowie Knives as prohibited carry items.  Further, Britain at the time was (and in many ways still is) very "anti-knife" and, as the closest cultural cousin, had an impact on U.S. culture.  This lead to eventually reducing the concept of knife-fighting in the U.S.  Besides, most people generally felt that guns were more efficient, an attitude which I can document as being directly applied to knife-fighting and knife-culture going back to the early 20th Century (as well as a specific note of what we now call "The Tueller Drill" or the "21 foot rule.")  I can present a ref. on that later if you would like to read it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Juany118 (Jun 2, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Well, actually, yes, it was.  But it's generations gone now.
> 
> Many of the cultures which came to the U.S. were "knife cultures."  The Spanish with the navaja and, later, the Italians with the stiletto were examples but there are many more.
> 
> ...



I will clarify and say "modern USA".  It may be apocryphal but I remember once hearing a story that back in the 1800's the Congress banned Reps carrying Bowie knives because enough brawls and beatings occurred with walking sticks lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Agreed on the training/firearm issue.  I usually ask people who carry for personal protection "do you practice stress shooting, reactive shooting and how to draw and shoot, safely, if your opponent is in melee range?" If the answer is "no" then I say, "please don't bother carrying it then because all you can do is basically shoot a bad guy from ambush and if you are actually defending yourself you will get crushed and a bad guy now has your gun."


Agreed!

I have a college friend who still talks about the time I walked up to him at a range, took his gun from his hand, and showed him how accurate it can be. He tells it like it was amazing, and I consider myself a mediocre shooter. In any competition, I'd get crushed. I'm basically defensively capable, and still come across as a great expert to the average shooter. That's a problem. I should be the average, not the exception.


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## drop bear (Jun 2, 2016)

Getting the situation under control before the knife is out and able to do damage is half the battle.

Getting the guy as the hand goes into the pocket raised your success rate.


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## Buka (Jun 2, 2016)

Statistically - other than firearms, which will never be surpassed, knife is the second most oft used killing tool in the United States.


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## WW3 Combatives (Jul 20, 2016)

It's always great to carry some form of weapon with you. Anything can be used as an equalizer. Even if you don't have a weapon on you, there is usually something around that can be used. Like what was said above, when someone knows what they are doing with an knife you are usually bleeding before you notice it. Knives are used for killing and intimidation. When they are being used to kill you feel it before you see it. When it is being used for intimidation such as during a robbery or rape it will be shown to you. If you hope to get your weapon out you will have to make space while you are pulling it out.

In most cases you don't have time. You either have to already have it in your hand or run away and pull it out in case they catch up to you. When you can't run away, you have to attack the man. Disarms are dangerous and will get you killed. Your attacks would have to be vicious and with the intent to kill. This is a life or death situation and must be taken seriously. There is no way that curling up into a ball and praying to your god will save you. You will just get cut and stabbed way more times then if you fought back. It is your responsibility to get yourself out of that situation. 

So the best weapons to carry would be awareness, knowledge and skill. They are light weight and very useful haha.


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## WW3 Combatives (Jul 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. All of this. The knife-beats-gun argument is based upon the knife user having his weapon out, and the gun being holstered (it was research for LEO's facing armed suspects). You could swap the two weapons (gun out, knife sheathed) and the numbers swing drastically in the other direction...then they keep going, because the gun-wielder need not get within range of the knife.
> 
> I favor a cane, because even the TSA can't take it away from me. I do need one from time to time (crappy knees, highly arthritic toe), and develop an amazing limp when I get near airport security checkpoints. Odd, that.


A cane is a great weapon. When someone gets a cane it should come with a free lesson one how to use it as a weapon. The person using it already has a handicap which makes them vulnerable to attack.


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## Juany118 (Jul 20, 2016)

WW3 Combatives said:


> It's always great to carry some form of weapon with you. Anything can be used as an equalizer. Even if you don't have a weapon on you, there is usually something around that can be used. Like what was said above, when someone knows what they are doing with an knife you are usually bleeding before you notice it. Knives are used for killing and intimidation. When they are being used to kill you feel it before you see it. When it is being used for intimidation such as during a robbery or rape it will be shown to you. If you hope to get your weapon out you will have to make space while you are pulling it out.
> 
> In most cases you don't have time. You either have to already have it in your hand or run away and pull it out in case they catch up to you. When you can't run away, you have to attack the man. Disarms are dangerous and will get you killed. Your attacks would have to be vicious and with the intent to kill. This is a life or death situation and must be taken seriously. There is no way that curling up into a ball and praying to your god will save you. You will just get cut and stabbed way more times then if you fought back. It is your responsibility to get yourself out of that situation.
> 
> So the best weapons to carry would be awareness, knowledge and skill. They are light weight and very useful haha.



I agree with almost everything you say with a couple exceptions.  Note the following is anecdotal experience gain over 18+ years as a LEO.  

The idea of "felt vs seen" with a knife is true, for either a trained knife fighter or an experienced person, say from prison life, already planning to simply attack.  People committing robberies, posturing as proceeds a bar or street fight usually has the person displaying the weapon.

Second disarms.  It all depends on your training.  Now I have yet to disarm someone with a knife but I have disarmed people with a crow bar, club etc using the same techniques Aikido and FMA teach for disarms because my option was to "take a hit" as I went for a tool or disarm.  Now that should indeed be a last resort, even if you are well trained, because you can still get cut but, luckily, most people you run into on the street will not be trained or experienced in knife fighting.  Also what I note above comes down to you being better trained than the person facing you.


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## WW3 Combatives (Jul 21, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I agree with almost everything you say with a couple exceptions.  Note the following is anecdotal experience gain over 18+ years as a LEO.
> 
> The idea of "felt vs seen" with a knife is true, for either a trained knife fighter or an experienced person, say from prison life, already planning to simply attack.  People committing robberies, posturing as proceeds a bar or street fight usually has the person displaying the weapon.
> 
> Second disarms.  It all depends on your training.  Now I have yet to disarm someone with a knife but I have disarmed people with a crow bar, club etc using the same techniques Aikido and FMA teach for disarms because my option was to "take a hit" as I went for a tool or disarm.  Now that should indeed be a last resort, even if you are well trained, because you can still get cut but, luckily, most people you run into on the street will not be trained or experienced in knife fighting.  Also what I note above comes down to you being better trained than the person facing you.


Disarms are most definitely possible but still very dangerous. I knife compared to a club or a crowbar are a little different even though the same techniques can work. The knife has a point and sharp edge. If it isn't disarmed immediately or the first time, you have now put yourself within range and have a greater chance of being stabbed and cut. Such a difficult situation to deal with. As far as my training is concerned. You have to go in 100% or get out 100%, there is no in between.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2016)

WW3 Combatives said:


> Disarms are most definitely possible but still very dangerous. I knife compared to a club or a crowbar are a little different even though the same techniques can work. The knife has a point and sharp edge. If it isn't disarmed immediately or the first time, you have now put yourself within range and have a greater chance of being stabbed and cut. Such a difficult situation to deal with. As far as my training is concerned. You have to go in 100% or get out 100%, there is no in between.


Disarms should be the end point of another technique, IMO. In that case they are not more dangerous than anything else - they are simply what's available at that decision point. If I compare trying to take the knife away vs. punching someone, the punch is probably safer. If I compare the punch to a punch and an off-balancing movement, the punch is more dangerous. Now, if I put the disarm at the end of the off-balancing movement (because it becomes available at that point, for instance) then it is safer than the punch.

What's dangerous is leaving the weapon in their hand (and them capable of using it) or trying to force any specific response.


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