# Native American Fighting Arts



## Samurai (Jan 22, 2003)

Anyone have any experience with Native American Fighting Arts?  I know there is a Kenpo gu called Chief Roman that uses Kenpo and calls it Native American Arts, but I am looking for something more pure.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## arnisador (Jan 22, 2003)

See here for more on him. I don't know of much else in terms of native American arts!


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## Radhnoti (Jan 27, 2003)

OK...this may not be the kind of "pure" you're lookin' for right now.  But, it IS a JKD concepts guy who went in a few interesting directions...one of which is native american fighting.  Maybe he breaks his training for each "style" down pretty specifically, as I've seen with other JKD concepts instructors.

http://www.blayshalla.com/


Hope it helps.


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## Arthur (Jan 28, 2003)

Jeremy?!?!

Haven't I talked to you ages ago? Same Jeremy?

Anyway if your really interested I can put you in contact with some guys, NH and NJ. A bit of a trip but the real deal.

Arthur


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## Samurai (Jan 31, 2003)

> Haven't I talked to you ages ago? Same Jeremy?



Same Jeremy as what?  If you are the ARTHUR on the Russian Martial Arts Forum, then YES I am that same Jeremy.  If you are the Arthur from the IRS, then NO it was a different Jeremy  

Seriously,
I am very intrested in Native American Fighting "styles".  I have an american indian hertiage and would love to further explore the fighting approach.  

I spent some time in the Oklahoma reservations talking to some older Shawnee gentlemen.  They explained a little of the tomahawk fighting style that they were taught as young boys.  It looked much like the filipino martial arts.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays
The Jeremy from Farmland, Indiana (60 mile north of Indianapolis)


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## Arthur (Feb 7, 2003)

YEah, its me... the Arthur from the RMA forum. Hey whats's up. Sorry for the delay in a response... I wasn't able to respond for a while.

If your interested in Native American Fighting Arts... you can go checkout the Virtual Mountain Wilderness School contact the man who runs it (Bruce). He's one of my students, and is very knowledgable about various Native American survival arts.

take care,
Arthur


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## J-kid (Feb 9, 2003)

Ive heard they dont punch with closed fists


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## Samurai (Feb 11, 2003)

> Ive heard they dont punch with closed fists



I can not speak to this.  What I was shown was someone "punching with a tomahawk".  They did not demostrate empty hand.

Also, the Native American fighting styles are very different from one reigon to another and one tribe to another.  That is a very general statement.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## Rommel (Mar 26, 2003)

TRS, the same guys who brought us Vlad, has just come out with a tape of someone who they claim is teaching the Native American Indian Fighting Arts. I just love how TRS promotes these guys. That company is one of the most persuasive. I'm just glad when I trusted them regarding Vladimir. Here's the link:

http://www.trsdirect.com/instructor.php?id=Brown


If anyone decides to take the risk, please post a review.


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## GouRonin (Mar 26, 2003)

Sheeesh!


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## TonyL (Oct 18, 2003)

I dont know how many people here have heard of Ki Chuan Do, the system developed by Master John Perkins. His father Coy Perkins who was half Cherokee Indian trained JP in knife, tomahawk, stick, spear, as well as Native American style combat. He has applied this training to the system he has developed along with many other aspects of realistic defense.


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## Cruentus (Oct 19, 2003)

I would be greatly interested in checking out AUTHENTIC Native American Fighting Arts, but sadly, it is hard to find. Most people who claim it have backgrounds in Filipino Martial Arts, or Kenpo, and it would seem that what they teach is only a hybrid of those arts. I don't want some guys hybrid interpretation of FMA (something I already train in), but I would want something a bit more authentic.


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## stanley neptune (Jan 28, 2004)

There is a big ad in the current issue of Black Belt from a guy who teaches Apache fighting. 

I don't know the whole thing looks a little suspect to me. Chief Roman looks kinf of kookie.

I think he teaches "Tonto-jitsu"!!

Stanley Neptune


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## Cruentus (Jan 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by stanley neptune _
> *There is a big ad in the current issue of Black Belt from a guy who teaches Apache fighting.
> 
> I don't know the whole thing looks a little suspect to me. Chief Roman looks kinf of kookie.
> ...



Yea...exactly what I mean. :shrug: I have to see/experience to believe. There just seem to be too many out there trying to use "native american" as their niche, when what they do is not authentic.


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## stanley neptune (Jan 30, 2004)

See www.apacheknife.com

All I can say is Koo Koo, Koo Koo, Koo Koo!

Stanley Neptune


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## Samurai (Feb 2, 2004)

I do not know this guy (ApacheKnife.com) or anything about him

BUT.....

He is endorsed by the Dog Brothers (he is GhostDog) and a major in the Israeli Defense Force (Avi Nardia), and well as the United States Marines.

I know that the people on the above list do not play around with things that are of no use or are frauds.  They look for quick, no-nonsense solutions to knife attacks.

I also saw that he uses stage blood in his training program.  That is a great idea that most knife fighting schools and seminars should experiment with.  I confess I was a bit freaked out at the pictures until I saw that the blood was stage blood (I did not think it was real but the point is that the sight of blood real or fake trigger something deep down).  This is a missing element is many training systems.  Also I think that the "bloody hands" would make holding a weapon much harder further adding to the realisim.

Just some food for thought,
Jeremy Bays


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## stanley neptune (Feb 4, 2004)

I could be wrong but I do not believe that you can serve in the US military while serving in the military of another country. In the US Military you swear to defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. It might be tough being in the military of another country.

So he is an Apache that lived in Israel? What is his name Squanto Goldstein? Moshe Sitting Bull? Schlomo Running Bear?

Sounds like he is offering up the flavor of the month. He was also probably a member of the Russian Spetnatz, a Ninja, a Brazilian Wrestler and Pre World War II Combative expert.

Stanley Neptune


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## Cuentada (Feb 4, 2004)

call me silly, but i think he meant mr. redfeather is endorsed by men in these military organiztions...


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## Samurai (Feb 5, 2004)

YES - I did mean that Mr. Redfeather is ENDORSED by these people.

Avi Nardia is the Israeli Defense Force Major that posted an endorsement on Mr. Redfeather's site.

Mr Nardia teaches something called Kappo but that is a different thread.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays


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## FDVargas0351 (Mar 21, 2004)

"See www.apacheknife.com

All I can say is Koo Koo, Koo Koo, Koo Koo!

Stanley Neptune"


Its a shame Stanely that you give an opinion about a man and his material without ever training in it.  I have had the great luck of training under Mr. Redfeather and I assure you that his material is second to none.  In fact I have to guess that Mr. Redfeather is possibly the most impressive hand to hand combatant that I have ever met or worked out with.  

I was certified under Mr. Redfeather to teach his basic knife course back in November of 03.  I assure you that his training methods are effective and purely combative.  I currently train filipino martial arts and I can attest that his knife work is not "renamed" kali or escrima.  Mr. Redfeather is a full blooded apache who learned the art from his grandfather.  Additionally Mr. redfeather teaches his blade work from experiance, not theory.  This art has been tested in real combat.  I suggest you e-mail him and ask him yourself. 

Additionally, in the short time I trained with Mr. Redfeather, he gave me glimpses of his chinese art, which was equally impressive.  

I agree that everything must be taken with a grain of salt.  I too worried about walking into a class and learning Karate techniques with "apache" names,  But I assure you Mr. Redfeather is the real deal.  I am a certified knife survival instructor under Jim wagner, I also train in a military knife program under GM gus Michalik, and in W.Hock Hochiem's Knife-counter knife combatives.  HOWEVER, If my life were ever on the line in a REAL knife encounter I have no doubt that the Apache system would be the one I would turn to.

Please as smart people, you should question everything, but in turn take the time to evaluate something properly before you make judgements.


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## Shogun (Apr 14, 2004)

I study under Grandmaster Adrian Roman, This stuff is Legit! I am Koyukan Native (you may say "Eskimo") and Wyandotte. The Native American fighting arts are a system, usually not written, that is taught from father to son. My grandfather taught me his knife and machete tactics. Native fighting arts are much like Filipino arts in apearance. However, the Philosophy is like Bujutsu. maintain a strong base, intercept, control, disarm, finish out.


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## Bald Bob (May 3, 2004)

Hey thanks to SHOGUN!  Like you I actually study under Grandmaster Roman as opposed to speculating about what he teaches and criticizing that.  (Wow!  I just realized how many logical guidelines are violated by criticizing what you think something might be.  Some of our forum visitors are fairly thought-challenged....)

For those of you who care, I have studied Kenpo and the Red Warrior system is decidedly different from Kenpo.  We will have an article about the system later this year in Black Belt.  In between now and then you could buy the videos, attend one-on-one classes...or, join the other kids who don't need to have logic to reach a conclusion.


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## Cruentus (May 3, 2004)

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> Hey thanks to SHOGUN!  Like you I actually study under Grandmaster Roman as opposed to speculating about what he teaches and criticizing that.  (Wow!  I just realized how many logical guidelines are violated by criticizing what you think something might be.  Some of our forum visitors are fairly thought-challenged....)
> 
> For those of you who care, I have studied Kenpo and the Red Warrior system is decidedly different from Kenpo.  We will have an article about the system later this year in Black Belt.  In between now and then you could buy the videos, attend one-on-one classes...or, join the other kids who don't need to have logic to reach a conclusion.



That's great, Bob, thanks for the info. I am Skeptical about anyone in martial arts out there until I see them on the floor, but if Chief Roman was doing a seminar in my area, or if I was out by him, I would definitaly check him out and make my judgements then. I don't think that it is fair to expect anyone to shell out $$ for his videos before knowing if he is credable or not, but perhaps a magazine article would be a good read!  :ultracool


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## Shogun (May 4, 2004)

> Hey thanks to SHOGUN! Like you I actually study under Grandmaster Roman


A fellow Warrior. Thats good. I have read a thread (I think it is in Kenpo-general) that stated that Grandmaster Roman isn't legit, but if they read his site or talked to him, they would realize he is a capable man. He is trying to stray away from "cookie cutter" black belt schools with his Techniques.


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## Cruentus (May 4, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> but if they read his site or talked to him, they would realize he is a capable man.



Ummm....with all do respect...don't you mean train with him? If you can't experience their movement, then how do you really know if its legit?

 :asian:


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## Shogun (May 7, 2004)

yes and no. I did mean train w/ him for the capable part. but I meant what he was trying to accomplish. sorry for he confusion.


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## arnisador (May 8, 2004)

http://inikte.com


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## Goldendragon7 (May 8, 2004)

Samurai said:
			
		

> Anyone have any experience with Native American Fighting Arts?  I am looking for something pure.  Thanks Jeremy Bays



OK... I don't believe there is such a thing as a "pure" "Native American" Martial Art.


 :asian:


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## Bald Bob (May 11, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> OK... I don't believe there is such a thing as a "pure" "Native American" Martial Art.
> 
> 
> :asian:


 There is no "pure" martial art of any kind because good practitioners of any art borrow freely from everyone they encounter.  I study Red Warrior under Grandmaster Adrian Roman.  This is a mixture of the techniques he learned from his father, uncles etc. (he is full blood Choctaw) and a re-creation of what martial art techniques would have been given the weapons and circumstances of the Aboriginal American.  For example, much of our study is around knife defense because NAs carried knives at all times as utility tools and would have used them in a fight!  If you lost your knife you still had to fight.  The near impossible task of disarming a knife fighter makes it a neglected art in most systems.  In Red Warrior the need to use finesse and protect yourself while closing the gap permeates all other techniques.  I aluded to the system in an article I wrote about DM Roman for Black Belt in 2003 and a much longer article will be coming out in BB close to the end of the year.  I would be glad to correspond with anyone interested in H2H, knife, bow and arrow, blowgun, stick etc. all arts of Red Warrior.


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## Cruentus (May 11, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> http://inikte.com



Looking through this website expresses exactly what I mean when I said that I didn't want a hybrid version of arts I already study.

Inikte is clearly a hybrid compelation of many different arts put together by a native american; NOT a historically native american art. It may be a great system, however, historically it's not what I'd be looking to go see.

I am skeptical about Cheif Roman and Mr. Redfeather because they both have other martial arts backgounds, so I wonder how much of their art is authentic. I personally have no desire to learn Kenpo or FMA or some hybrid with a "native american flavor." This doesn't mean that they aren't skilled, or that their arts aren't good, it just means that it wouldn't be for me to want to pay $$ for a seminar to try out.

Now, I understand that no art is in a vaccum, and that arts pirate from each other all the time. However, there is a big difference between a native american art with some FMA oe kenpo techniques, and FMA or kenpo with a native american flavor.

Followers and students of these teachers most likely aren't going to give an unbiased point of view either. This would include students who write articles about them.

So, the bottom line for me would be to go visit them and see them for myself when/if it is convienient; that is the only way to know for sure.

 :asian:


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## jrackley (May 11, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> There is a big ad in the current issue of Black Belt from a guy who teaches Apache fighting.
> 
> I don't know the whole thing looks a little suspect to me. Chief Roman looks kinf of kookie.
> 
> ...


Hello Mr Neptune,
Chief Adrian Roman teaches, Kenpo, Red Warrior and womans self defense.He is an outstanding teacher.
Thanks
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




jrackley


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## jrackley (May 11, 2004)

FDVargas0351 said:
			
		

> "See www.apacheknife.com
> 
> All I can say is Koo Koo, Koo Koo, Koo Koo!
> 
> ...


 


Thank you Sir, very well said.


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## jrackley (May 11, 2004)

Samurai said:
			
		

> Anyone have any experience with Native American Fighting Arts? I know there is a Kenpo gu called Chief Roman that uses Kenpo and calls it Native American Arts, but I am looking for something more pure.
> Thanks
> Jeremy Bays


Have you ever seen Chief Romans red warrior program.


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## Bald Bob (May 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Looking through this website expresses exactly what I mean when I said that I didn't want a hybrid version of arts I already study.
> 
> Inikte is clearly a hybrid compelation of many different arts put together by a native american; NOT a historically native american art. It may be a great system, however, historically it's not what I'd be looking to go see.
> 
> ...


  Well, you present a logical roadblock in all directions.  You assert that students and those who who know enough about their teachers to write articles aren't going to give an unbiased point of view.  Perhaps so, but those who do not have that insight can't give any informed point of view at all.  

Grandmaster Roman's Red Warrior system is very distinct from Kenpo.  I have a black belt in each system from him and while I like and respect Kenpo it is not Red Warrior and varies in many significant ways.  Your best comment? See for yourself.


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## Bald Bob (May 12, 2004)

FDVargas0351 said:
			
		

> "See www.apacheknife.com
> 
> All I can say is Koo Koo, Koo Koo, Koo Koo!
> 
> ...


  I am sure that Mr. Redfeather is a fine man.  I have seen one of his videos and found it much like other knife fighting videos with the same conventions (knife side up fighting, etc.)  I suggest you look into the knife fighting arts of Grandmaster Adrian Roman. I think you will find a different approach and one you might like even better.  When we test standard knife techniques against GM Roman's we find the latter superior.  I join with you in saying that people who have never seen a teacher's work should not condemn it based on their speculation.


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## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> Well, you present a logical roadblock in all directions.  You assert that students and those who who know enough about their teachers to write articles aren't going to give an unbiased point of view.  Perhaps so, but those who do not have that insight can't give any informed point of view at all.
> 
> Grandmaster Roman's Red Warrior system is very distinct from Kenpo.  I have a black belt in each system from him and while I like and respect Kenpo it is not Red Warrior and varies in many significant ways.  Your best comment? See for yourself.



It's not really a logical roadblock for me. I don't have to become a full-blown student to have an informed opinion on GM Roman. With almost 20 years in the martial arts and enough exposure in many styles of FMA, and enough exposure to Kenpo, I will be able to tell what is and what isn't these other arts if I see him, for the most part.


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## loki09789 (May 12, 2004)

I have been lurking here and have noticed this conversation spin from "Native American" arts to authenticity bashing.

Earlier on someone made the point that there really isn't/wasn't a codified/systemized native american system. You did what worked. If steel was better than stone, it was used. If the rifle was superior to the bow and arrow, it was used.... I would imagine that the 'technical' approach of fighting for Native americans (whether Continental USA or Island chains...) fit into that over all view as well. That said:

I would think that Native Fighting arts goals and purposes would be more productive to discuss. What were Native fighting arts used for? Obviously fighting, but for what types (raids, defense, hunting, internal dueling for power) of purposes did the fighting arts serve. 

Remember too that the idea of Counting Coup on an enemy was a sign of bravery and a goal of Native fighting style (at least for Lakota) and that goal would change some of the ways that they fought individually.

Speaking of individually, coordinated mass battle formations didn't really come into play for Native Americans until they were locking horns with the Blue Suits of the US Army. Prior to that, combat was more mobs of individual warriors seeking single combat until there was no one else willing to fight.

How did that shift change Native Fighting arts.

This purpose/practicallity driven fighting ideology seems similar to FMA's to me and makes the 'authenticity' argument kind of pointless.

To me it seems that the spirituallity and mindset of the Native warrior wasn't locked into 'Technique' but purposes of fighting with bravery, skill and honor to make sure that he/they represented their clan/tribe well in combat and accomplished the task at hand.


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## Bald Bob (May 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> It's not really a logical roadblock for me. I don't have to become a full-blown student to have an informed opinion on GM Roman. With almost 20 years in the martial arts and enough exposure in many styles of FMA, and enough exposure to Kenpo, I will be able to tell what is and what isn't these other arts if I see him, for the most part.


The less you know the less you can meaningfully comment but I won't cavil with your having some opinion based on your vast general knowledge of MA.  That having been said, I would assume you have at least seen several Red Warrior techniques in order to comment at all.  If you have seen Red Warrior in practice and consider it Kenpo-like I would like to see a list of the similarities because I can certainly list the differences.


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## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

> This purpose/practicallity driven fighting ideology seems similar to FMA's to me and makes the 'authenticity' argument kind of pointless.


I disagree with this point in that I think that credability is an issue.

The Celts had a similar fighting approach as the Native Americans; yet if I learned FMA, did some research on Celtic traditions, fighting methods, and spirituality, then said my fighting method was a Celtic Warrior tradition that I learned from my Grandfather, then I would have an authenticity/credability problem. FMA methods, or (insert art here) with a Celtic Flavor is not a "Celtic Martial Art." Same is true for Native American based arts. (Insert other Arts here) methods with a Native American flair is not a Native American Art, no matter which way you cut it. Also, just because I am "Celtic" by race, that doesn't mean that I learned a family or tribes style of fighting. Same is true for a Native American; just because you might be one by race, doesn't mean you learned traditional healing or fighting methods.

Authenticity is an issue. I can do my own historical research and apply what I know from FMA on my own; I don't need someone else to do it for me, nor do I need to pay big bucks to go see them for what I could do on my own. However, if someone actively learned and practiced the Native American fighting methods of their family and tribe, then I would like to explore those. I'll be able to tell the difference if I see them. 

Now, I think it is pointless to go on a credability witch hunt, as some have done here. The only way I'll know if any of these instructors are the real deal is if I see them, or if a credable source that I trust sees them.

 :asian:


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## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> The less you know the less you can meaningfully comment but I won't cavil with your having some opinion based on your vast general knowledge of MA.  That having been said, I would assume you have at least seen several Red Warrior techniques in order to comment at all.  If you have seen Red Warrior in practice and consider it Kenpo-like I would like to see a list of the similarities because I can certainly list the differences.



I haven't seen any Red Warrior techniques. I said that I am naturally skeptical in situations like these. When people have other backgrounds, but claim to be the head of a martial art from their own culture, the possability is there that this system of theirs is really just a hybrid of other arts they have studied. I would need to see them in action to verify one way or the other.

So...what exactly is your problem with what I am saying?


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## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Another thing, Baldbob,

It sounds like you are creating an even worse logical problem, that I see happening all too often in the martial arts in general. Your saying that a persons opinion has less value unless he really trains with your instructor and become one of his students, because only by being his student will you be able to come to understand what he is doing. The problem is, being his student requires a great investment of time, effort, and money. Once this is invested, the student doesn't want to believe that his instructor and what he is studying may be less then credable, for this also ruins the students credability. The student won't accept the possability that his instructor may not be credable, even when the evidence is right in front of him. In fact, even the slight idea of the possability makes the student upset, with feelings that he must defend his teacher at all costs.

This isn't the case here, is it?


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## loki09789 (May 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I disagree with this point in that I think that credability is an issue.
> 
> Same is true for Native American based arts. (Insert other Arts here) methods with a Native American flair is not a Native American Art, no matter which way you cut it. Also, just because I am "Celtic" by race, that doesn't mean that I learned a family or tribes style of fighting. Same is true for a Native American; just because you might be one by race, doesn't mean you learned traditional healing or fighting methods.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I would be cautious in my use of the term "race" here. As far as I know, biologically there is only one race of man and we are all just different shades of the basic make up. As far as Native American "race" - there isn't one in an anthropological sense but there is a DNA fingerprint that can link a group of from a particular period of time.  

Within the cultural use of 'us' and 'them', historically Native Americans don't say that you have to have x biological make up. You are accepted into the 'people' based on character, courage and other criteria. Remember "Dances with Wolves'? Mary McDonald's character of an anglo ethnic as a full member of a Lakota tribe wasn't uncommon.

That said, if there is no real credible (as in written or recorded) historical 'art' of the Native Americans, but there is a tradition of practicallity.  What is so wrong with someone who as carried on that tradition by absorbing a technical set of skills from another art - and mastered those skills to a BB level, reconfigured them to fit into a cultural package of Native American values and other skills to create something unique? Nothing is original, it all comes from somewhere else. I don't think that the Native Americans are/were worried about who 'originated' the firearms/marksmanship that they applied as time went on. Once they absorbed it, adapted it into the culture it was theirs and they owned it.  BB's who teach eastern martial arts within a character building program based on Christian values to problem children aren't too worried about how 'authentic' their practices are because the goal and purpose is what really drives what you do with the art.

Would you argue that American Kenpo is a misnomer because Kenpo isn't 'American' or would you recognize that AK is the Western 'cultural appropriation' of Kenpo because enough people who came from America had put their fingerprints on it and taken ownership of their version of Kenpo? It still is Kenpo, it still is good, it just isn't the same as the Chinese/Japanese versions. Same with the multitude of Modern Arnis and Balintawak that is out there. 

In each case, there was a core of basics/concepts that was used to accomplish instructional and self defense goals, but the variances that have grown because of personalization and 'cultural appropriation' by putting your own stamp on the core aren't lacking in authenticity because there wasn't really a blueprint as much as an outline with room in the spaces to fit in your own details once you have mastered the outline.  Same for Native arts. 

So, really 'original' isn't high on the criteria for FMA or Native Arts as far as I can tell. Effectiveness and practitioner skill is. Can you 'do' what you 'say' when it counts in presentation of individual skill, organization/instruction of the system, production of students of good character and skill, and in the real deal? These seem, to me at least, to be what really matter.

I have read through some of the info on these Native American MArtists with eastern arts backgrounds repackaged or incorporated into Native themed courses. They generally give credit to the multitude of sources they pull into the program: Native American culture/skills, Kenpo... and others. Of course, for advertising purposes of creating a unique 'market niche', some of the other than Native sources are down played.... but isn't that true in any advertising?


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## Shogun (May 12, 2004)

> Speaking of individually, coordinated mass battle formations didn't really come into play for Native Americans until they were locking horns with the Blue Suits of the US Army. Prior to that, combat was more mobs of individual warriors seeking single combat until there was no one else willing to fight.


for the most part this is true. however, fossil evidence have shown the first real americans were related to the Aborigines of Australia, who came here about 60,000 years ago on Huge canoes. after the last ice age about 12,500 years ago, Mongoloids made their way down from Siberia, and using mass-military tactics, wiped out the aboriginals. However, for thousands of years after that, clan unity for military was rare.
As far as "race, you made some good points.


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## Bald Bob (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I haven't seen any Red Warrior techniques. I said that I am naturally skeptical in situations like these. When people have other backgrounds, but claim to be the head of a martial art from their own culture, the possability is there that this system of theirs is really just a hybrid of other arts they have studied. I would need to see them in action to verify one way or the other.
> 
> So...what exactly is your problem with what I am saying?


  Ah well, I must have misread.  If you are merely saying that there is a possibility of hybridization (is that a real word?) of course there is always that possibility.  I agree you or anyone else would need to see the systems to comment on them. 

Unfortunately some people seem willing to draw conclusions about what could "possibly" be rather than actually examining what "actually is."  

View Red Warrior and I think you will find it a different system than others you have seen.  I have written some articles about Grandmaster Roman's RW system but the ones in depth are still in press.


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## Bald Bob (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Another thing, Baldbob,
> 
> It sounds like you are creating an even worse logical problem, that I see happening all too often in the martial arts in general. Your saying that a persons opinion has less value unless he really trains with your instructor and become one of his students, because only by being his student will you be able to come to understand what he is doing. The problem is, being his student requires a great investment of time, effort, and money. Once this is invested, the student doesn't want to believe that his instructor and what he is studying may be less then credable, for this also ruins the students credability. The student won't accept the possability that his instructor may not be credable, even when the evidence is right in front of him. In fact, even the slight idea of the possability makes the student upset, with feelings that he must defend his teacher at all costs.
> 
> This isn't the case here, is it?


That might be the case if the student were forced to continue training as if he were enlisted in the military.  Then, indeed, what you describe could happen.  It is formally called "cognitive dissonance" -- e.g., if I had to spend so much time doing it I hate to think I wasted my time so I convince myself I didn't.  

Not so with MA.  If you find that the system doesn't make sense after a few lessons you simply quit.  Moreover, you can always spend time with students from other areas and compare notes.  

In between being a student who has invested years and someone who has seen next to nothing there is a wide range of experience.  If you attend several classes of a system and conclude there isn't much there, that's an informed opinion.  I find too many people are saying "well I have never seen it but there probably isn't much there" -- and that's just stupidity, not in the insulting but in the dictionary sense of the word. 

As for my own credibility I don't worry much about it.  In MA, my avocation, and also in my vocation as well, my attitude is if you agree with my advice you'll take it.  If it works you will like it and follow it again.  If you don't find that what I teach works for you, you won't use it.  That's where credibility comes from. People who speculate about what I might be able to teach or possibly could teach or might be biased to teach are speculating about my credibility.  And we all know the value of speculation in the absense of actual observation.

Enough.  I can't believe I am chatting.  I swore to never do that!


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

If I am being potentially hammered here for the use of the term "race," when I have made no prejudiced statements, then WHO is the real racist? 

Race: 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

I'll use the term "heritage" if that'll be more "P.C." for you all, but in reality there is nothing wrong with the term I used.

On to more productive things...



> What is so wrong with someone who as carried on that tradition by absorbing a technical set of skills from another art - and mastered those skills to a BB level, reconfigured them to fit into a cultural package of Native American values and other skills to create something unique?



It depends if that "something unique" is a bunch of lies, or if it is true. If someone is presenting their kenpo as a native american style that they learned from their uncle, when they didn't really learn anything from their uncle, then they are lying. I have no problems with, "I studied native american spirituality and kenpo, so I decided to merge the two together in my presentation of my kenpo." But, if that is what happened, then say so. I have a problem with people fabricating their backgrounds and credability.

So the difference is in truth or lies, really, and unfortunatily in martial arts, most people can't tell the difference between the two.

We have also been brainwashed to believe in Martial Arts that lies and embelishment is O.K. for "marketing." It's not O.K....it's false advertising.

All I ask is that people be true to their arts and backgrounds. I get fustrated when a school claims to teach a full blown modern arnis program, when the instructor has been to 2 seminars 5 years ago, and their modern arnis program is really TKD with siniwalis. The instructor should just say, "We have incorporated a weapons program that is influenced by Modern Arnis." Students would respect that just as much as anything else. But noooo....he has to pretend that he is qualified to teach the entire art to appease his ego. 

So, if any of these gentlemen we are talking about here are being true to their backgrounds, then I have no problems with them. Unfortunatily, because there is not a large "Native American Fighting Arts" community to verify ones credentials, the only way to tell for sure is to see them yourself.

On that note, I am still not sure what people's problems are with what I have been saying. I am advocating to go see any one of these people in person before judging, but I am also choosing to not drink the cool-aid before I know what's in it, so to speak. What's wrong with that? If what they do is credable, then this shouldn't be a problem. I advocate that if anyone questions my credability, that they come see me to decide.

PAUL


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## loki09789 (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> If I am being potentially hammered here for the use of the term "race," when I have made no prejudiced statements, then WHO is the real racist?
> 
> Race: 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
> 
> ...


Not hammering, just cautioning because the term Race, by the very nature of your #2.a definition makes clear, has many connotations.  I am not worried about "PC" as much as sensititivety.  Neither you or I are Native American and there may be some who are that read/write here.  Without clarity, terms like 'race' can really be misinterpreted - especially within the context of a criticism about an artist marketing Native Americanism in a program.

As far as claims and such, if you have questions, criticism here might be less productive than talking to him direct via email or some other way.


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

Bald Bob...

Ha ha...your chatting!   



> Not so with MA. If you find that the system doesn't make sense after a few lessons you simply quit. Moreover, you can always spend time with students from other areas and compare notes



Ah...but it is so. Studies have shown that when people are "unskilled," then they are unable to recognize a lack of skill in others. This applies directly to MA. If someone is an inexperienced beginner, it is likely that they will not be able to tell much of a difference between a qualified and unqualified instructor. If their teacher sucks, they really won't know it. Then, after years of training, cognitive dissonance takes its effects. A decent study on how those unskilled cannot recognize others who are unskilled, and how being unskilled inflates ones own self perception can be found online here: http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html

Beginners have to be really careful because of this. No one should take anything in MA for face value. Credentials should be verified through background checking, peer reviews, and seeing in person. If a beginner is going to check out another instructor, they should try to find another practitioner of the arts with some experience to go with them.

Anyways, I agree with you that people shouldn't make assumptions about others without checking into them thoroughly. However, I feel that there is nothing wrong with asking educated questions, and any good instructor should welcome inquiries.


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Not hammering, just cautioning because the term Race, by the very nature of your #2.a definition makes clear, has many connotations.  I am not worried about "PC" as much as sensititivety.  Neither you or I are Native American and there may be some who are that read/write here.  Without clarity, terms like 'race' can really be misinterpreted - especially within the context of a criticism about an artist marketing Native Americanism in a program.
> 
> As far as claims and such, if you have questions, criticism here might be less productive than talking to him direct via email or some other way.



I agree...but I am not actually criticizing any of these instructors here though. I have plenty of questions, but most need to be answered on a training floor. So, I'll have to wait for that opportunity to come around.

 :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 13, 2004)

I could be dead to nuts wrong, but the last time I had sociology, three races were identified, with subsets to each race: Negroid, Mongoloid, and Caucasoid.  American Indians (north & south) were considered to be of Mongoloid descent, as were Oceanic peoples. I do remember them having a hard time pinning down Semitic tribes, and even some of the Hindustani tribes, but there were definite anthropologic divisions, based on cultural and physiological differences, some evidenced by little more than the color of skin or physical attributes (remember the puzzling of giant stone heads in South America with Negroid features?).

One species, yes.  Race? Still under debate by persons more learned than us in these areas.

I had to take sociology twice: Once when I forst started school, and another time about 12 years later (grandfather clause stuff ran out on a second degree program). I noticed the 2nd time that, the fear of being labeled a racist or politically incorrect, prevented profs from stating plainly what was considered accepted teaching a decade earlier.

When academic debate about an issue is rail-roaded onto a side-track because of political correctness, we have lost the ability to discover truth, in the presence of preference.

Say what there is to be said, and let the cards land where they will.

Just a thought.

D.


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## loki09789 (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> On to more productive things...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This does sound like a criticism to me.  Statements like this might limit the opportunities to train and learn about these arts.


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## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> This does sound like a criticism to me.  Statements like this might limit the opportunities to train and learn about these arts.



I apologize if I am being misinterpreted. I am not saying that any of these arts/instructors are bad or good, for I have not seen them.

All I am saying is that lies are prevelent in Martial Arts, so everyone needs to be wearing their critical thinking cap. I am aiming for critical thinking, not criticism.

 :asian:


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## loki09789 (May 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> When academic debate about an issue is rail-roaded onto a side-track because of political correctness, we have lost the ability to discover truth, in the presence of preference.
> 
> Say what there is to be said, and let the cards land where they will.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about preference, but productive word choice.  I was just talking to a student about how the social preception vs the academic/clinical preception of terms like 'race' or 'consequence' can really distract people from your issues - which means that your clarity is your responsibility.

Sociologically and within those circles of folks, connotations are understood better than in these blind audience forums.  I simply was cautioning about WC and the results of it.  If you reald through my posts, there is a serious trend of just laying it out there at times too.  There is a time for that and there is a time for articulation and clarity.  I would think that if the point is to avoid the possible side issue of "PC" issues, clarity would take care of that very quickly.

Did I think he was being racist?  No.  Did I make my cautionary statement with the intention of preventing a side track?  Yes.  Notice how I went right back into the topic?


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## Shogun (May 14, 2004)

> Neither you or I are Native American and there may be some who are that read/write here. Without clarity, terms like 'race' can really be misinterpreted - especially within the context of a criticism about an artist marketing Native Americanism in a program.


 
I'm not offended at all! lol. (I am Koyukan Inuit, and Wyandotte Native, with a hint of "White")

Race can be taken way out of context here, but as long as everyone knows what was meant, then we could probably move on.


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## Tgace (May 14, 2004)

If the stuff being taught is good, does the rest of the @#$% really matter? Yes lies about sources are distasteful, but many people put up with questionable sales pitches as long as the product is good. Dr. Gyi's history has been up for question, but by all accounts his stuff is good.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I am not talking about preference, but productive word choice. I was just talking to a student about how the social preception vs the academic/clinical preception of terms like 'race' or 'consequence' can really distract people from your issues - which means that your clarity is your responsibility.
> 
> Sociologically and within those circles of folks, connotations are understood better than in these blind audience forums. I simply was cautioning about WC and the results of it. If you reald through my posts, there is a serious trend of just laying it out there at times too. There is a time for that and there is a time for articulation and clarity. I would think that if the point is to avoid the possible side issue of "PC" issues, clarity would take care of that very quickly.
> 
> Did I think he was being racist? No. Did I make my cautionary statement with the intention of preventing a side track? Yes. Notice how I went right back into the topic?


Loki:

I apologize if it seems I was being confrontative towards you.  That was not my intent.  I'd read a couple threads in a row regarding "one race", presented in the space where "one species" would most certainly have been approprate.  I just finally opted to phlbbbt my thoughts on the subject to a post, and this is where it landed.

And in the spirit if the ethos, pathos, logos components of effective communication / rhetoric / argumentation and debate, you are absolutley right.  The meaning of a communication is the response it gets, and the honus is on the communicator to manage the response potentials within the defined fields.  Rather than challenge you, you are to be commended for being among the roughly 2% that is willing to take responsibility for the effects of their communication -- real or percieved -- and plan appropriately.

I would have been wiser to start a different thread to put this to the forum; I will aim my future sights appropriately.

Thank you for the course correction and feedback,

Dave

PS -- crow tastes better warm


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## loki09789 (May 15, 2004)

Dave,
You're regularly a straight shooter who doesn't try and babble on (like me at times). 

No problem,and no need for an apology in my mind. Thanks for the clarification of intention though.  Yes, I am a firm believer that you are responsible for the control, accuracy and form of your word delivery - just as you are responsible for physical techniques and control in martial arts.  You can't control someones interpretations or reads, but you can make sure your thoughts, words and deeds are consistent enough that any misinterpreations are easy to clear up with mature interaction.  In the work place or out of it, "That isn't what I mean't" isn't good enough, and doesn't speak to responsibility, it is an excuse to be insensitive and unclear.

It would be nice if it didn't look so tacky to have "he said earnestly" or "jokingly" included with these posts. This text only communication does eliminate the 70% of other levels of human communication that happens in face to face and the 40-50% of other levels that take place voice to voice. THe little smiley faces don't help too much either.

Ah, the importance of my trade as English Language Arts teacher is still obscure and often misunderstood... it is nice to see that at least once in a while it is recognized as the most siginificant job in the world. After all, even President Bush had an.....never mind


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## arnisador (May 16, 2004)

Seen on Eskrima Digest:



> Nagondzog -- The traditional Apache methods of hunting, survival, and
> guerrilla warfare.





> find contact info. for training at www.yashai.com or
> www.boneheadllc.com





> Information on Chief Instructor Blaise Loongs background/experience can be
> found at http://www.blayshalla.com/Blaise/MainFrame/MainFrame.htm.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 18, 2004)

Blaise was in Fountain Valley, CA, while I lived in Huntington Beach. Knew a couple guys who trained with him, and stopped by to watch some sessions. Very intense guy who takes his training quite seriously, and has developed some excellent (read: scary) skills. Has a demo tape for his hall...bit of alright, actually.

Dave


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## Northstorm (Sep 16, 2004)

I grew up on an Indian reservation in North Central plains of Montana. I was aware that the native language and stories were passed on, but there was never any fighting skills passed on that I was aware of. I went to many pow wows as well, and never saw any demonstrations of fighting skills other than wrestling. But I can say without hesitation that the indians did love to fight. I am as white as a fishes underbelly, but my grandfather was an old Scottsman who herded sheep in that valley, so I was accepted and learned a lot about the culture and the people. I speak with a reservation accent, which was pointed out to me often by my white friends. 

One thing I noticed was that Native Americans prefer to wrestle rather than to stand and punch. They may start out with a punch, but almost always it turns into a wrestling match. Wrestling is not only present in the streets, but it is VERY big at reservation schools. Maybe this tells us something about the roots of their fighting style.


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## Shogun (Sep 18, 2004)

definitely, man. Although roman's stuff is only half current (passed down, anyway) he shows a lot of grappling. As a native, with many native family members, I am familiar that the native ams loved to grapple. headlocks and toeholds are the common. side mount (for pinning) is also very common. and yes, natives love a good fight. I know I do.


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## Drac (Sep 18, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> There is a big ad in the current issue of Black Belt from a guy who teaches Apache fighting.
> 
> I don't know the whole thing looks a little suspect to me. Chief Roman looks kinf of kookie.
> 
> ...


"Tonto-jitsu"..Very well said.


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## Samurai (Nov 5, 2004)

In the new December 2004 issue of Black Belt magazine their is an article about "Chief" Adrian Roman and his knife fighting.  The article was not very well done and the techniques looked very......basic.

I was not too impressed with the stuff I saw in that article.
Thanks,
Jeremy Bays

Woodland Archery


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Nov 5, 2004)

I sincerely hope this did not come as a surprise.

Dave


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## FDVargas0351 (Dec 31, 2004)

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> I am sure that Mr. Redfeather is a fine man. I have seen one of his videos and found it much like other knife fighting videos with the same conventions (knife side up fighting, etc.) I suggest you look into the knife fighting arts of Grandmaster Adrian Roman. I think you will find a different approach and one you might like even better. When we test standard knife techniques against GM Roman's we find the latter superior. I join with you in saying that people who have never seen a teacher's work should not condemn it based on their speculation.


 
I have purchased Roman's program and with all respect there is no knife fighting presented.  It is merely a series of prearranged knife defenses.  I was disappointed with this material.  Roman actually takes a knife away from his attacker with one hand.  I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to do that on a conscious attacker.  Disarming a knife is like trying to grab a propeller blade on a helicopter.  

If you have had luck with the material, and it works for you thats great.  I can only recommend that you preassure test roman's and any material for that matter.  Do it as clos to full speed and full contact with as much resistance from the attacker as possible.


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