# Religious "medals" in class



## IcemanSK (Dec 24, 2006)

Hi all:

I know this subject has been brought up on here before (about allowing students to wear religious garments in class) but a new one came up for me. I have students who are Catholic & wear these small leather cords with a leather ornament at the end around their necks. (If it wasn't leather, I'd call it a chain w/ a medal on it). Forgive, I don't know what they are called). I'm guessing it's a saint's medal. I haven't gotten a chance to ask them what the signicance is yet.

I don't have a problem with them wearing it, persay. Except it may get accidentally torn off or damaged. I feel sine it's not like a metal necklace that can hurt someone else.

What have other instructors done in this case? Or students, do you take them off? Please help me understand the importance of this, also. 

Thanks


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## Cathain (Dec 24, 2006)

It sounds like a scapular. Most mainstream Catholics today don't wear them (most younger ones probably haven't even heard of them), so it's possible these students may belong to a traditionalist congregation. As such, it is possible that they are required to wear it as members of a Third Order.

I can't imagine it would be a problem to take them off while training, but if you feel it is an issue then I'd think it best to discuss it with them to see just what requirements are made on them. There's no larger Catholic penalty against them removing them, but their own particular religious order might oblige them to wear them if they belong to one. If it's just a personal thing though, then there should be no issue involved other than personal preference & I would expect them to be cooperative if you asked.


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## Kacey (Dec 24, 2006)

I have had students in my class who were Orthodox Jewish, who wore yarmulkes in class despite the rule against hats, and I never had a problem with it - although I did require them to remove the metal hair clips holding them on during sparring for safety reasons.

If your concern is that your students are wearing jewelry of some nature in class, and these are truly religious, then I would make an exception, and simply ask them to tuck the leather cord and ornament inside their dobak tops; if your concern is safety, then I would ask them the significance of the item and explain the safety concerns - sparring being the biggest concern, and perhaps ask them to remove the items only during sparring practice, the way some students remove their glasses for sparring.  It's also possible that, being religious rather than ornamental in nature, these students may not realize that rules against jewelry apply to these items.  Either way, I would pull them aside, ask them to explain what (if any) significance attaches to them, and then decide.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 24, 2006)

Cathain said:


> It sounds like a scapular. Most mainstream Catholics today don't wear them (most younger ones probably haven't even heard of them), so it's possible these students may belong to a traditionalist congregation. As such, it is possible that they are required to wear it as members of a Third Order.
> 
> I can't imagine it would be a problem to take them off while training, but if you feel it is an issue then I'd think it best to discuss it with them to see just what requirements are made on them. There's no larger Catholic penalty against them removing them, but their own particular religious order might oblige them to wear them if they belong to one. If it's just a personal thing though, then there should be no issue involved other than personal preference & I would expect them to be cooperative if you asked.


 
Thank you for your insight on this. Yes, they are Tridentine Catholic. Mom & dad are in their 30's & have 10 (yes 10!) children. I'm blessed (& I mean that) to have the oldest 5 in my program. I will talk to mom & dad & the kids & explain that I would hate to see the scapular damaged or lost during training. I figure that telling them I have a cross on my wedding ring (which in important to me) & I take off my ring for class, may help my point if they are hesitant.

Thanks again!


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## Cathain (Dec 24, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Thank you for your insight on this. Yes, they are Tridentine Catholic.


Yup, that would explain it.



> Mom & dad are in their 30's & have 10 (yes 10!) children. I'm blessed (& I mean that) to have the oldest 5 in my program. I will talk to mom & dad & the kids & explain that I would hate to see the scapular damaged or lost during training. I figure that telling them I have a cross on my wedding ring (which in important to me) & I take off my ring for class, may help my point if they are hesitant.


Yeah, I think showing an understanding attitude would definitely be the right approach. Scapulars are supposed to be worn constantly but it is permissible to take them off for short periods. From their point of view, they will not recieve the benefits or graces it confers for that period when they are removed but they are returned upon wearing them again. As such, there should be no permanent effect incurred from removing them in training.
If you explain you concerns then I doubt they will refuse.



> Thanks again!


My pleasure


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## Ninjamom (Dec 25, 2006)

It has been a long time since I reseached this, but I believe some see the scapular as conferring certain graces/indulgences on the bearer.  Thus, if the family is very religious, they may want them worn _especially_ during sparring.  The scapulars themselves are very simple, and of very little monetary value, so the possibility of damaging them wouldn't be much of a concern.  If wearing them is of great importance during sparring, and you have legitimate safety concerns, you might consider allowing the family members to sew the cloth piece into the inside of the dobok (so the scapulars are permanently worn while in uniform, totally out of sight, and in a position where they would be impossible to catch/choke/injure themselves or others.

The family members can check with their parish priest to verify that this is an acceptable approach to wearing the scapular; you would (of course) have to decide as the instructor if this is a legitimate compromise from your side.


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## Carol (Dec 25, 2006)

This is an area that I know quite well.  

I do not feel that the instructor removing something precious for him is a good approach.  Iceman, if you feel that you are blessed by having these folks in your class....they probably adore you .  PLEASE don't put them in a situation where they feel like they are being bullied by someone they respect.  That's a terrible thing to do to a student, even when you have good intentions.  

Deeply and sincerely held beliefs mean what is important to the PERSON, not what the generally accepted perception of the rules should be.  

The student may feel that they are unacceptable to remove.  It really isn't the instructors place to get in to whether or not the student thinks it's acceptable to remove their scapular....or to somehow lobby for the student to chose the instructor's class as the time that the  the class to be the time when the scapular is removed.   These decisions are none of the instructor's business.  

Instead I would strongly recommend a solution along the lines of what Ninjamom is saying...work with the students to find a solution that permits wearing the scapular while maximizing everyone's safety.    

One suggestion: athletic tape can work wonders for getting around awkward situations.  There are very little objects that can damage others when taped down and/or covered by athletic tape.  Plus, you may be hard pressed to find any religious person that thinks securing an article of faith to their body is a bad thing.


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## Cathain (Dec 25, 2006)

Ninjamom said:


> It has been a long time since I reseached this, but I believe some see the scapular as conferring certain graces/indulgences on the bearer.  Thus, if the family is very religious, they may want them worn _especially_ during sparring.


Only if it conferred the grace of invincibility


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## terryl965 (Dec 25, 2006)

Well Iceman my insurance allows no Jewerly of any kind on the workout floor, so our policy is no


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## IcemanSK (Dec 25, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> This is an area that I know quite well.
> 
> I do not feel that the instructor removing something precious for him is a good approach. Iceman, if you feel that you are blessed by having these folks in your class....they probably adore you . PLEASE don't put them in a situation where they feel like they are being bullied by someone they respect. That's a terrible thing to do to a student, even when you have good intentions.
> 
> ...


 
Carol:

One of reasons I brought it up here is for an education, because I want to be sensitive to the students' beliefs. Not knowing what the purpose of a scapular is for the wearer, I wanted to gain wisdom from folks here. To paraphrase Cathain, "The scapular do not confer the grace of invinsibility & can be taken off for short periods of time." If it were a yarmulke (as Kacey has come across) the only time I would see the pins an issue is during sparring. That could be taken care of with the mandatory head gear.

As a fellow Christian (with these students) I understand wanting to have a physical reminder of God's Presence with me always. Yet I also know the reminders we wear are for us, not God. I'd rather the students take off the scapular for class as a conscience reminder of God's Presence, than to have one loose it during class & perhaps fear that they had somehow let God down or that God's Presence wasn't with them during that time. 

I know some of us Christians (myself included at times) treat crosses, medals, etc. as if they were items of superstition, rather than faith in a God who is much bigger than the item we wear. I want to help these kids understand that God's Presence is with them whether or not the medals are worn. And I'd hate to see their scapular get damaged in class.


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## matt.m (Dec 25, 2006)

I have never, will never and as far as I know there is to be no jewelry in class in moo sul kwan practicing.  It is a safety thing period.


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## Carol (Dec 25, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Carol:
> 
> One of reasons I brought it up here is for an education, because I want to be sensitive to the students' beliefs. Not knowing what the purpose of a scapular is for the wearer, I wanted to gain wisdom from folks here. To paraphrase Cathain, "The scapular do not confer the grace of invinsibility & can be taken off for short periods of time." If it were a yarmulke (as Kacey has come across) the only time I would see the pins an issue is during sparring. That could be taken care of with the mandatory head gear.
> 
> ...




If it were me, or my children, I'd be bloody furious that our MA instructor was going past safety and past dress code concerns and in to micromanaging how he wants us to believe and how he wants us we practice our faith.  *shrug* Thats just me though


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## Ninjamom (Dec 25, 2006)

Iceman, I appreciate your sincere effort to understand the reason and importance to your students of the scapular.  However, to many individuals, it is more than just a reminder of God's presence - it is a promise of a special indulgence - an opportunity for final penance in the event of death or accident, while wearing it.  Please note that this is a view within a certain segment of Roman Catholic Christianity.  Not all Christians (myself included) hold this view.  Again, however, if this is the view of your students and their families, they would *especially* want the scapulars worn during a time of  potential danger (i.e., soldiers going into battle, or to a much lesser extent, sparring).

Likewise I appreciate the view of those who will not allow *any* jewelry during sparring for safety, insurance, or cultural reasons.  However, the scapular is not a piece of jewelry or a hard object.  It is a soft, cloth (usually felt) square less than an inch wide, with a picture or emblem on it.  It is not hard, not jewelry, not dangerous from a saftey or insurance perspective.  It is also not at all intrinsically valuable or expensive, so that you don't have to be concerned about 'what if' they get damaged.  You can buy them for as little as 50 cents, while 'really fancy' ones can cost about $6 each (I own a small Christian book and gift store, and I make these available for my Catholic customers, so I know).  They are not intended to be expensive or fancy - that's part of the whole issue of simplicity and humility.  

I would recommend you explain your dilemma to the parents and see just how serious an issue it is to them, first, before you worry any further.  If it's not such a big deal to them, just have the students take them off during class.  If it is an extremely big deal, talk to Mom and ask if she would be willing to sew the felt piece inside the dobak of each of her sons.  If it's the difference between whether or not the kids can continue training, I'll gladly mail you some, free.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> If it were me, or my children, I'd be bloody furious that our MA instructor was going past safety and past dress code concerns and in to micromanaging how he wants us to believe and how he wants us we practice our faith. *shrug* Thats just me though


 
Carol & ninjamom:

I'm sorry if I came across that way how someone practices their faith. Re-reading my statements, I see what you mean. That is not my intent. It really is a safety/damage issue for me. In class, it can be pulled off & either hurt the student or be lost.

I'll talk to the parents & explain my concern. As Cathain said, "They can be taken off for short peiods of time." I imagine they will see this as a reasonable "short period of time."

I really do encourage all of my students to practice their faith. I'm also interested in safety as well.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2006)

*I would recommend you explain your dilemma to the parents and see just how serious an issue it is to them, first, before you worry any further. If it's not such a big deal to them, just have the students take them off during class. If it is an extremely big deal, talk to Mom and ask if she would be willing to sew the felt piece inside the dobak of each of her sons. If it's the difference between whether or not the kids can continue training, I'll gladly mail you some, free.[/quote]*

I thought about the sewing. Wouldn't break up in the wash? Maybe creating a pocket that it could be taped into. Either way, if needed we can work something out. I really appreciate your offer to send those out to me. It won't be the difference of them training or not. We will work something out.

Thanks again.


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## Ray (Dec 26, 2006)

If a student were to wear a necklace with any kind of ornamentation that could accidently turn (so that the narrow edge was perpendicular to the surface of the body) and then struck (kicked/punched) so as to penetrate the skin, then I'm not allowing it.

If a student were wear a ring that would pentrate flesh during practice, then turn the face to the inside of the palm or take off the ring.

We're there to learn how to protect our selves and practice without causing harm to ourselves or our workout partners.


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## tellner (Dec 26, 2006)

Ah yes, the Brown Scapular. The ones I've seen were soft - usually cloth, yarn and sometimes paper. There's probably no danger of them hurting a training partner. The only issue is that they are pretty fragile and could be damaged. That is the student's problem.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 26, 2006)

tellner said:


> Ah yes, the Brown Scapular. The ones I've seen were soft - usually cloth, yarn and sometimes paper. There's probably no danger of them hurting a training partner. The only issue is that they are pretty fragile and could be damaged. That is the student's problem.


 
Since they are children (ages 8-14) I'd rather not have them lost or damaged. Probably little chance of injury from them, I'm thinkin.


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## Ninjamom (Dec 26, 2006)

Iceman, I took the liberty of calling the local Catholic rectory.  The head pastor confirmed that there would be nothing wrong with cutting the felt centerpiece off and sewing it into the inside of the uniform.  

Sounds like there are several options open.  I see from your profile that you have been studying and teaching for quite a while.  I trust your judgement, that you will find a workable solution.  Please let us all know how it turns out.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 27, 2006)

Ninjamom said:


> Iceman, I took the liberty of calling the local Catholic rectory. The head pastor confirmed that there would be nothing wrong with cutting the felt centerpiece off and sewing it into the inside of the uniform.
> 
> Sounds like there are several options open. I see from your profile that you have been studying and teaching for quite a while. I trust your judgement, that you will find a workable solution. Please let us all know how it turns out.


 
Thanks for the info about the scapular. These things are important to me for several reasons. My off the mat jobs have included pastoring churches & working as a social worker in churches. I have degrees in Biblical Studies & Christian Education. The last thing I'd want to do is make someone feel unwelcome in my class for their religious beliefs.


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## terryl965 (Dec 27, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Thanks for the info about the scapular. These things are important to me for several reasons. My off the mat jobs have included pastoring churches & working as a social worker in churches. I have degrees in Biblical Studies & Christian Education. The last thing I'd want to do is make someone feel unwelcome in my class for their religious beliefs.


 

I'm sure you could never do that


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## CanuckMA (Dec 28, 2006)

There is also the question of the leather strap. Is it loos enough to catch an sparring partner's fingers in it, or could it accidentaly put pressure on the wearer's neck?

I'm an Orthodox Jew, and would either remove my kippa, or wear one with velcro fasteners during training.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 29, 2006)

CanuckMA said:


> There is also the question of the leather strap. Is it loos enough to catch an sparring partner's fingers in it, or could it accidentaly put pressure on the wearer's neck?
> 
> I'm an Orthodox Jew, and would either remove my kippa, or wear one with velcro fasteners during training.


 
If they want to have it with them, I would have them create a pocket (or use velcro or tape) to put it in their uniform. The strap wouldn't be an issue. I thought the same about the potential danger of it.

Forgive me, but what is a kippa? I'm not familiar with the term.


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## Kacey (Dec 29, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> If they want to have it with them, I would have them create a pocket (or use velcro or tape) to put it in their uniform. The strap wouldn't be an issue. I thought the same about the potential danger of it.
> 
> Forgive me, but what is a kippa? I'm not familiar with the term.



"Kippa" means head-covering - more correct, but less commonly-used (in the US) than "yarmulke" - basically, a skullcap - worn by all Orthodox Jewish adult men (any male past the age of 13 who has been Bar Mitzvah).  Many men keep them on with metal hair clips, which is what I was talking about when I first posted on this thread, but there are other types of clips available - for safety, for preference, and because base metals cannot be worn into the shul (place of worship).


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## IcemanSK (Dec 29, 2006)

Kacey said:


> "Kippa" means head-covering - more correct, but less commonly-used (in the US) than "yarmulke" - basically, a skullcap - worn by all Orthodox Jewish adult men (any male past the age of 13 who has been Bar Mitzvah). Many men keep them on with metal hair clips, which is what I was talking about when I first posted on this thread, but there are other types of clips available - for safety, for preference, and because base metals cannot be worn into the shul (place of worship).


 
Another tip in from Kacey! Thank you ma'am. I know the word yarmulke. Kippa actually sounds like it would be the more commonly used word. I wonder why it isn't.


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## Kacey (Dec 29, 2006)

IcemanSK said:


> Another tip in from Kacey! Thank you ma'am. I know the word yarmulke. Kippa actually sounds like it would be the more commonly used word. I wonder why it isn't.


You're welcome - and I'm not sure why; some of it was dialectical, and some of it involved which words made it into English - like menorah (which means candelabra) becoming the common word for the candelabra used for Hanukah, when the correct term is hanukiot (basically, Hanukah candelabra).

Anyway, to get back to the discussion, I would talk to them about the purpose of the medal/icon, and see what they say.  I think ninjamom had a great idea, sewing them into the dobak top, if that's okay with them; if they were cloth, I wouldn't be particularly concerned, but leather can cut - that's why we don't use leather sparring gear.  If they need to wear it, rather than attaching it to the dobak top, maybe they have cloth scapulars they can wear in class instead of the leather ones - that would take care of both the religious and safety issues that have been raised, as cloth won't hurt anyone, and they would still be wearing a scapular.  Otherwise, I'd see if they can keep them tucked inside the dobak top, and maybe fastem them down inside - realistically, if they ever have to defend themselves, they'll still be wearing a scapular, so they should learn how with one on - just not in a fashion that puts them or other students at risk.  I never had problems with my Orthodox students in terms of using non-dangerous clips on their kippah, and I don't think you should have problems with these students as long as they know you are trying to avoid injury and have some options for them to choose from.


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## CanuckMA (Jan 9, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> Another tip in from Kacey! Thank you ma'am. I know the word yarmulke. Kippa actually sounds like it would be the more commonly used word. I wonder why it isn't.


 
Kippa is the Hebrew term. Yarmulke is Yiddish. Since most NA Jews are from Eastern European ancestry, the Yiddish term became more prevalent. It is slowly losing out as the younger generations are less, if at all, fluent in Yiddish.


It comes down to accommodating faith within safety parameters. And in a dojo, safety must always win.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 12, 2007)

CanuckMA said:


> Kippa is the Hebrew term. Yarmulke is Yiddish. Since most NA Jews are from Eastern European ancestry, the Yiddish term became more prevalent. It is slowly losing out as the younger generations are less, if at all, fluent in Yiddish.
> 
> *Its sad when the younger generations loose out on their heritage. Thanks for the insight!*
> 
> ...


 
*I agree completely.*


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## Carol (Jan 12, 2007)

How's it going with your students Iceman?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 15, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> How's it going with your students Iceman?


 

To be honest, I've been so busy prepping for my pre-test video & starting up with a new session & new students, I forgot to bring it up or even notice if they were wearing them. I'll letcha know after tomorrow.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 26, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> How's it going with your students Iceman?


 

Funny thing....I noticed in class last night that hey haven't been wearing them in class this session. I haven't even said anything to them. Maybe they've read this thread.:ultracool


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