# Help needed, request for comments!!!!!



## Guro Harold (Apr 15, 2003)

Hello Everyone,

I would like to ask the MartialTalk family to evaluate a new logo for my organization.

I would appreciate all input but especially from the ladies and gentlemen of the Philippines or those knowlegeable about Philippine culture.

I wanted to have a logo that shows respect and tribute for the Philippines and do not want to unintentially offend anyone of from there.

Please examine the attached file and let me know if it is offensive in anyway. If it is, I will not use it!!!!!

Maraming salamat,

Harold Evans
FCS-Kali North Carolina State Rep


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## cali_tkdbruin (Apr 15, 2003)

That looks cool... :asian:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

Looks good.


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

Very nice.

Mike


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

you would think that with today's P.C technology and programs that you would come up with a better design than that....


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *you would think that with today's P.C technology and programs that you would come up with a better design than that.... *



Rather than just saying, "you could do better" -- why not explain what you think is wrong with it.

Mike


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *you would think that with today's P.C technology and programs that you would come up with a better design than that.... *



Are you a TOTAL *** or what?


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

well it looks like a first grade crayola drawing for starters!
 doesnt it.

Also the sun and stars on our flag looks notthing like the drawing, at least make an accurate repesentation of our flag to show respect. How would you like the american flag to be misinterpreted on a poster??? Do some reseach and do your banner properly spend some time on it as i said before it looks like a 1st grade drawing..
also if your not filipino show something of your own culture.


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

Are you a TOTAL *** or what?

he asked for an evaluation of his design he is offending filipino people by not drawing the stars and sun properly in the first place, this is one aspect that should be altered.

he also has asked for true opinions 

your the total *** if you can honestly say that that should be the finish product...
also be honest why do you think its cool?
How?


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *well it looks like a first grade crayola drawing for starters!
> doesnt it.*



No, actually, it doesn't. Unless you're referring to the graininess of the image. That has nothing to do with the graphic. That has to do with getting the file down to a reasonable size.

Also, I assume that this is a "concept" drawing, not a final version. Could be wrong. But even if it is a final version, I think it's decent.

Can you do any better?



> *
> Also the sun and stars on our flag looks notthing like the drawing, at least make an accurate repesentation of our flag to show respect. How would you like the american flag to be misinterpreted on a poster??? Do some reseach and do your banner properly spend some time on it as i said before it looks like a 1st grade drawing..*



Umm ... what do you mean it "looks nothing like" ... it obviously looks _something_ like it or you wouldn't have been able to recognize it as such.

But, I agree, it could be a bit more detailed ... again, assuming this is supposed to be a final draft. If it's a concept draft then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

For reference, though, Palusut, here's a link to a good image of the flag: http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/PHIL001.GIF



> *also if your not filipino show something of your own culture. *



This, though, I kind of agree with in a sideways kind of manner.

Have you thought about maybe incorporating the NC or US flag into it somewhere?

Mike


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> your the total *** if you can honestly say that that should be the finish product...
> also be honest why do you think its cool?
> How? *



He asked what people thought. He didn't say this was the final product. When I have my graphics done I hack out a prototype and ask for feed back. After that I take it to a pro. He asked for input, not to be trashed.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *you would think that with today's P.C technology and programs that you would come up with a better design than that.... *




Its not the computer or applications that do the job for you any more than a good stick or knife defends you...its the person working the tools that makes it work.  I'd be out of a job if everybody could do there own design work on a computer.  I'm a professional art director/graphic designer in an advertising agency as well as a teacher of graphic design and communication arts at our community college.  Some people can tell you if a logo is cool or not...I can tell you why it works or why it doesn't.  See my brief review of this logo in Palusut's other post in FMA.

And don't be so hard the guy...this is ten times better than what I get from clients (showing me there ideas).  Harold if you would like some help on this let me know and I'll work with you to put something polished together for you, no charge.

Andy


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## cali_tkdbruin (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *
> 
> And don't be so hard the guy...this is ten times better than what I get from clients (showing me there ideas).  Harold if you would like some help on this let me know and I'll work with you to put something polished together for you, no charge.
> ...



Well I'm no FMArtist, but, yeah from an outsider's point of view it looked good to me...


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## Guro Harold (Apr 15, 2003)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the positive feedback!!!

The thing that I understand about MartialTalk is the number of talented people who post on this site.

There is enough experienced people whose collective experience if totalled would be in the 100's of years and 1000's of hours.

That's the power of a public forum.

MoroMoro,

Here are some feedback to some of your points:

1) This is a concept drawing but more importantly it was a project for one of my students who is trying to polish her skills in Graphics Design.  Another student (her brother) was her model for the pose.  My upbringing calls for me to invest in my students in the same way my instructors have invested and mentored me.

2) Art is art, it does not mean it will be an exact replica of a thing.  Sometimes its impressionistic in nature.  The heart of this work is wanting to show the Philippines proper respect and recognition for the Art that the Professor had given to us and that though a branch of FCS-Kali is based in North Carolina, the heart and soul of  the art is from the Philippines.

You can talk about how great your Grandmaster is, and people would like to know more of him, however if it wasn't for the Philippines and Grandmaster Remy A. Presas dream of seeing it talked first to his people and then to the world, would this public forum be here?

Again apart of my upbringing and culture is give credit where credit is due.

Do you know that about the time you were born, Grandmaster Presas and Guro Dan Inosanto both stated in seperate books that Arnis was a dying art in the Philippines?

It took courageous men and women to teach this art and to start teaching it to outsiders.  Some left their homes in the Philippines to be able to come to the US and Australia to live a better life.  And we in the US have benefited as much as those who study this art in Germany and other parts of the world.

I would like to suggest to you that you quickly open a thread about your Grandmasters and their history before your unprofessional antics close the door on people being interested in learning about their deep contribution to the art from you.  That way you can bring more to the table than just armchair critiques.

In closing:

"I want all of you to know that my art is now your art, because I have given to you.  Please take it as a gift from the Philippines."

Paraphrased quote from Grandmaster Remy A. Presas

Harold Evans


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## arnisandyz (Apr 15, 2003)

Harold,

Your student did a good job.  Please pass my comments on to her as they were meant to be constructive and to make the logo even better.  Please explain I am not trying to make her do it my way, but only offer options and suggestions that could be explored. I've work with student designers  for 5 years and  i really enjoy watching thier growth.  Tell her to stick with her graphic design studies, theres not a day that goes by that I'm grateful for what I do for a living, its a great career choice.

Andy


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## Brian Johns (Apr 15, 2003)

Hey Palusut,

I'm no graphics designer or anything like that. But, my first impression is that the prototype design looks like. I'm sure that there will be improvements made upon the original design pursuant some of the HELPFUL suggestions on this forum.  One of the unhelpful posters should change his handle to "moronmoron."
 

Good seeing you a couple of weeks ago. Beautiful baby girl that you have !

Take care,
Brian


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> *One of the unhelpful posters should change his handle to "moronmoron."
> *



While I agree that his initial post wasn't helpful and that he can be somewhat abrasive, that's no reason to insult him.

Mike


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## Brian Johns (Apr 15, 2003)

> While I agree that his initial post wasn't helpful and that he can be somewhat abrasive, that's no reason to insult him.
> 
> Mike



Well, I was just following the lead of Renegade.   I should point out that the problem is more than his abrasiveness. First, he called a member of this forum "pathetic." Now, he resorts to calling Palusut's proposed logo as the work of a first grader. Abrasive ? It's more than that. So I think that Renegade was justified in what he said. Ditto for me.

Take care,
Brian


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> *Well, I was just following the lead of Renegade.   I should point out that the problem is more than his abrasiveness. First, he called a member of this forum "pathetic." Now, he resorts to calling Palusut's proposed logo as the work of a first grader. Abrasive ? It's more than that. So I think that Renegade was justified in what he said. Ditto for me.
> 
> Take care,
> Brian *



Yes, and Renegade really shouldn't have flown off the handle like that either. It accomplishes nothing. If everyone starts doing it then the board will degenerate into an endless string of insults and that's not why any of us are here.

The mods are dealing with the situation... that's our job 

Mike


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## Brian Johns (Apr 15, 2003)

> The mods are dealing with the situation ... that's our job



Gotcha. 

Take care,
Brian


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhoopAss _
> *Gotcha.
> 
> Take care,
> Brian *



Glad to hear it 

Mike


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 15, 2003)

I have seen much worse looking patches being worn by people who's  school have been around a long time.
 It is a good design.  Perhaps a little more color and a better representation of the human figure but then again maybe not.
Its your (or her?) logo/patch  the basic idea is there and it lets people know a little about what it represents.  
like I said I have seen worse and many that represented nothing other than the instructors name.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *Are you a TOTAL *** or what?
> 
> he asked for an evaluation of his design he is offending filipino people by not drawing the stars and sun properly in the first place, this is one aspect that should be altered.
> ...




Terry,

Hi How are you?

I see there has been much discussion about your opinion. Can I draw a picture to a discussion me and you had when you joined this board. Your name in itself is a disrepsect to thousands if not millions of Muslims. Yes, I understand it is a word of pride for your Instructor. So, maybe this representation is a mis-representation in your mind. Not in all Filipino's minds? Remember I quoted many Filipino's also who did not like the term Moro or moromoro. So, express your opinion, just do not express it as if it is the only opinion.

Please pass my respects onto GM Abrian the next time you speak.
:asian:


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## Jay Bell (Apr 15, 2003)

There seems to be a tone problem here if anything.  Constructive criticism was asked for...and the reply was nothing short of an attack.  Please keep this nice.

Thanks,

Jay


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Yes, and Renegade really shouldn't have flown off the handle like that either. *



For the record, Kaith was next to me in my office when I replied.


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

hi to all 

i think the first question to ask is are you going to use the design, if you are thats good and if you dont thats good also, it really makes little difference you asked for opinions now if you where only expecting the one positive opinion then you shouldn't have posted this thread, remember there is two sides of the coin.

you asked if it needed improvements , i believed it did but thats my opinion, because it looked like the work was a rushed job...

if people think of only one way as the right way then they will have troubles in a real fight. 


hi Rich, yes please look at the term MORO in the FMA forum, as you will see it is not disrespectful, MORO is the term used by islamic pilipinos to describe themselves in our language please look at the MILF the islamic independance movement there name is the moro islamic liberation front. also the term moromoro is also the very popular term given to our dances and plays which have notthing to do with the moro.  So remember moromoro as a term has a lot to do with the plays and dances and very little to do with the moro filipino's. also my cousins wife is/ was a moro and she would laugh if you tought moro was a derogatory term.. the whole notion of the term moro as refering to the islamic peoples of the philippines as beign derogatory is complete nonsense iam from zamboanga city and i still go back every year from training and to visit my family and yes we have plenty of moro friends....It hurts alot of islamic filipino's whose forefathers used the term moro to fight for independance if we simply forget them as moro. remember anyone can be muslim but you have to have it in your blood to be known as a moro (ancestry) for them it is something to be proud of..

and the story about the art dying out in the PI in the 70's is total BS it was stronger than ever in cebu.
for the record i have been practicing FMA for 17 years.


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi to all
> 
> i think the first question to ask is are you going to use the design, if you are thats good and if you dont thats good also, it really makes little difference you asked for opinions now if you where only expecting the one positive opinion then you shouldn't have posted this thread, remember there is two sides of the coin.*



Yes, but as has already been pointed out, your comment wasn't constructive. It was just insulting. Constructive criticism need not be positive. In fact, most often, the most helpful criticism is the negative input. But your statement wasn't input of any sort. It was just a declarative statement that was insulting and completely unproductive.



> *hi Rich, yes please look at the term MORO in the FMA forum, as you will see it is not disrespectful, MORO is the term ...*



I believe this topic already has its own thread. No reason to hijack this thread to continue the debate.

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi to all
> 
> i think the first question to ask is are you going to use the design, if you are thats good and if you dont thats good also, it really makes little difference you asked for opinions now if you where only expecting the one positive opinion then you shouldn't have posted this thread, remember there is two sides of the coin.
> ...




Terry,

You see I understand your point of view. The problem is not that I do not see both sides of the fence, it is that you do not see both sides of the fence. You see your side and only your side. It is your way and only your way. If you would stop and pose a question as opposed to insulting or attacking people, you might get more respect and have more people listen to your opinions.

Just my opinion

:asian:


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

WELL OK.

I THINK YOU SHOULD USE MORE DETAIL IN THE STARS AND SUN. try to make them a close repersentation of the filipino flag, also the man on there i dont like it there, why dont you do something like the florida group on the FMA thread, it looks more deadly well thats first imprssions anyway.


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## pesilat (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *WELL OK.
> 
> I THINK YOU SHOULD USE MORE DETAIL IN THE STARS AND SUN. try to make them a close repersentation of the filipino flag, also the man on there i dont like it there, why dont you do something like the florida group on the FMA thread, it looks more deadly well thats first imprssions anyway. *



Was that so difficult? 

Mike


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

I still think he is an ***!


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

no that wasnt. 

i think your an ******* renegade. well thats my opinion, nuff said. c ya


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *no that wasnt.
> 
> i think your an ******* renegade. well thats my opinion, nuff said. c ya *




NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm THE ****ING RENEGADE!!!!!!! And don't you forget it!


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## Cthulhu (Apr 15, 2003)

====================
Moderator Note.
*Keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level.* Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Further infractions will result in disciplinary action for all involved parties.  This is a FINAL warning.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

====================


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## moromoro (Apr 15, 2003)

its about time moderator and thankyou.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *its about time moderator and thankyou. *



 I think he's talking to you.


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## Cthulhu (Apr 15, 2003)

Thread locked because all the adults stopped posting.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


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