# Trapping.... Useless?



## LegLockGuy (Jan 30, 2007)

It seems that alot of the Muay Thai/BJJ guys I talk to think trapping is pointless and wont work in a real fight. But then the Wing Chun/JKD guys say it can work, it just depends. Well with ego's aside, does/can trapping work in a fight, and if yes, how so?


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2007)

LegLockGuy said:


> Well with ego's aside, does/can trapping work in a fight, and if yes, how so?


 
I've had suspects attempt to push me aside with one hand..I simply trapped the offending and against my chest and used a take down technique..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2007)

Drac said:


> I've had suspects attempt to push me aside with one hand..I simply trapped the offending and against my chest and used a take down technique..


 
I have done the same or similar several times when making an arrest as well. (back in the day)


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 30, 2007)

Context. Trapping works best during the build up to a conflict, prior to all full blown attack.
Since MT/BJJ tend to be sport based it won't work there too well because no one will utilise a technique that will be easily trapped.
Wheareas in self-defence/arrest situation prior to a full attack the suspect may try a move thats more easily trapped - eg the standard grab you by the lapel/shirt with one and hand smack you with other.


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Context. Trapping works best during the build up to a conflict, prior to all full blown attack.
> Since MT/BJJ tend to be sport based it won't work there too well because no one will utilise a technique that will be easily trapped.
> Wheareas in self-defence/arrest situation prior to a full attack the suspect may try a move thats more easily trapped - eg the standard grab you by the lapel/shirt with one and hand smack you with other.


 
Yep..Especially if they think the fat grey haired cop can't do anything..LOL


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 30, 2007)

Drac said:


> Yep..Especially if they think the fat grey haired cop can't do anything..LOL


 
Thats always good for a laugh. Hmmm. Also though of another factor - clothes. Most trapping is easily done because a person goes to grip a piece of clothing, whereas in a ring fight they are usually lacking in grippable tops.
Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.


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## Drac (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Thats always good for a laugh. Hmmm. Also though of another factor - clothes. Most trapping is easily done because a person goes to grip a piece of clothing, whereas in a ring fight they are usually lacking in grippable tops.


 
Over here those thick "Baby Phat" jackets are great for that




			
				Shotgun Budda said:
			
		

> Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.


 
LOL:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Thats always good for a laugh. Hmmm. Also though of another factor - clothes. Most trapping is easily done because a person goes to grip a piece of clothing, whereas in a ring fight they are usually lacking in grippable tops.
> Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.


 

:rofl:  That was a picture I really did not need this early in the morning! :rofl:


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 30, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> :rofl: That was a picture I really did not need this early in the morning! :rofl:


 
I swear its not what it looks like. I do this in the name of science!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> I swear its not what it looks like. I do this in the name of science!


 
Okay then, I understand completely! :erg: :rofl:


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## bydand (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Thats always good for a laugh. Hmmm. Also though of another factor - clothes. Most trapping is easily done because a person goes to grip a piece of clothing, whereas in a ring fight they are usually lacking in grippable tops.
> Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.





Shotgun Buddha said:


> I swear its not what it looks like. I do this in the name of science!




Note to self:  Stay away from Shotgun Buddha's area for the next few years.  :lfao:


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## Yeti (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.


Good Lord man! With that approach, you won't have to worry whether trapping works or doesn't...nobody would want a piece of "that naked crazy man"!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 30, 2007)

LegLockGuy said:


> It seems that alot of the Muay Thai/BJJ guys I talk to think trapping is pointless and wont work in a real fight. But then the Wing Chun/JKD guys say it can work, it just depends. Well with ego's aside, does/can trapping work in a fight, and if yes, how so?


 
I think you need to look at it from the area you are approaching it from ie. *Fighting*!  Trapping is definately going to be hard in  cage match unless you consider an armbar a trap and lock. (which it is)  Stand up trapping though when two opponents are striking is harder unless you hit the other person (and that causes a metnal stun) and then move in and begin to trap and control.  However in the real world of self defense and violent encounters trapping works in its right place and time. (ie. clothing grab, mental stun from hit, precipitous grab/trap on your part that could be work related (law enforcement, secrurity, etc) and more) It is just one more option in your skill set that you should develop in case you need it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




    Good thread!


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## terryl965 (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> I swear its not what it looks like. I do this in the name of science!


 
Yea that is what they all say


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## MJS (Jan 30, 2007)

LegLockGuy said:


> It seems that alot of the Muay Thai/BJJ guys I talk to think trapping is pointless and wont work in a real fight. But then the Wing Chun/JKD guys say it can work, it just depends. Well with ego's aside, does/can trapping work in a fight, and if yes, how so?


 
People say that wrist locks/joint locks don't work either.  However, I'm not going to throw something out because someone else says it can't/won't work.  This could very well be because the people saying that, don't understand how to make it work.  

The thing to keep in mind is that sometimes things will still work effectively, but you have to wait for just the right time to apply them.  For example, take a joint lock.  I wouldn't go in thinking, "Ok, I'm going to get his arm into a lock." but instead, "Ohhh...look, the arm is in a good position for me to apply this lock!"  See the difference?  Sometimes things need to be set up first.  If during a grappling session, I want to get an armlock from the mount, if I were to go right for that arm, its going to be very obvious, where as if I tried something else first, as a distraction, I'm in essence, setting up that arm lock.

I hope this answered your questions. 

Mike


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 30, 2007)

MJS said:


> People say that wrist locks/joint locks don't work either. However, I'm not going to throw something out because someone else says it can't/won't work. This could very well be because the people saying that, don't understand how to make it work.
> 
> The thing to keep in mind is that sometimes things will still work effectively, but you have to wait for just the right time to apply them. For example, take a joint lock. I wouldn't go in thinking, "Ok, I'm going to get his arm into a lock." but instead, "Ohhh...look, the arm is in a good position for me to apply this lock!" See the difference? Sometimes things need to be set up first. If during a grappling session, I want to get an armlock from the mount, if I were to go right for that arm, its going to be very obvious, where as if I tried something else first, as a distraction, I'm in essence, setting up that arm lock.
> 
> ...


 
You never go looking for a technique, you try to secure a good position and use what ever technqiues will work from there. A principle which applies to all ranges and forms of combat.
I like to think of trapping and joint locking as a layer of training that you add onto your base delivery system.
For example, I know that on their own I could never properly utilise the locking techniques from my Aikido class.
However by combining those techniques with my grappling delivery system of Judo/BJJ I can apply them as easily as any submission from those systems. 
Same goes for trapping, its something I add on to the base.
I think the reason that some people object to these techniques is that some places train them as the base, and so attempt to use them without a solid foundation.


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## tellner (Jan 30, 2007)

ShotgunBuddha, weren't you the one sayin' you were only trying to help that sheep over the fence?


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## MJS (Jan 30, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> You never go looking for a technique, you try to secure a good position and use what ever technqiues will work from there.


 
Agreed.  Thats what I was saying in my post.  Take advantage of whats presented to you at the time.  Using one move as a set to another is also an option.  As for the locks, same thing.  

Mike


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## tradrockrat (Jan 30, 2007)

I think your question has been answered by the people best suited to answer honestly here in this thread - people who put themselves in harms way without the goal being points *or* killing, but real control and self defense.  Traps have their place and they work well in that place.


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## ares (Jan 30, 2007)

In my class, if someone takes a knife and puts the point of it at your throat, then a trap would work to control that hand while you do something else to get out of the threat. Done correctly, the attacker would be in real bad shape when it's all said and done. I've seen people trap limbs and not even realize that they were doing it. Ares


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## Hand Sword (Jan 31, 2007)

Funny thing, it works for them too. How about all of the BJJ reversals/escapes? How many describe it as trapping up a limb to describe the motions? How about arm wraps in MT? Neck cranks for throws/control, with knee strikes? Underhooking in tie ups? Tie ups themselves? All traps!


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## Drac (Jan 31, 2007)

Many of the weapon retention techniques we teach work off of trapping the hand..


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 31, 2007)

ares said:


> In my class, if someone takes a knife and puts the point of it at your throat, then a trap would work to control that hand while you do something else to get out of the threat. Done correctly, the attacker would be in real bad shape when it's all said and done. I've seen people trap limbs and not even realize that they were doing it. Ares


 
If someone has a knife point at your throat then whatever you do has a pretty high risk of getting your throat cut.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 31, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Funny thing, it works for them too. How about all of the BJJ reversals/escapes? How many describe it as trapping up a limb to describe the motions? How about arm wraps in MT? Neck cranks for throws/control, with knee strikes? Underhooking in tie ups? Tie ups themselves? All traps!


 
Working on a different principle though.
Most competition related trapping works on the base of first pin the body and move outwards to an extremity. You disable the large before going after the small. 
Whereas alot non-competition traps work from the extremities inwards, disabling the smaller to gain access to the larger.

The first principle works well during a conflict.
The second principle works well prior to the conflict has fully escalated.
So just use them where appropriate.


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## zDom (Jan 31, 2007)

ares said:


> I've seen people trap limbs and not even realize that they were doing it.



Funny how this subject comes up now...

This weekend I competed in a tournament.

During the match, my opponent threw an "blind" spinning technique. He was trying for a backfist but smacked me with his elbow right in the face.

This happened to be the SECOND time he had smacked me with excessive contact with a blind technique (blind meaning, I was looking at the back of his head and he couldn't see what he was swinging at), the first incident having happened about a year ago.

So about a minute later I bridged the gap on him again, ending up with him turning his back to me again.

Without thinking, I used my left arm to pin his left arm up against his body while I gave him a hard shot to the head 

Observers told me about it later, but I had to watch the tape before I realized what I had done 

Funny thing is, my training partner ALSO did a trap-punch combination in HIS match (different division) the same day! (Also unintentional). His was a circular wrap &#8212; counterclockwise circle with his left arm to trap the opponent's arm (something right out of our technique curriculum).

I'm thinking traps DO work, if the time and timing is right. Kind of a pre-emptive block of sorts.


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## Infinite (Jan 31, 2007)

zDom said:


> I'm thinking traps DO work, if the time and timing is right. Kind of a pre-emptive block of sorts.



Aha so the wisdom of Bruce Lee,

Trapping is the moment when the attacker chooses to attack but before he has a chance to complete the motion. You are taking advantage of the opening created by the attack.

That is the whole point of trapping it is a preemptive strike designed to limit the options of the attacker and give you more options.

--Infy


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## Hand Sword (Jan 31, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Working on a different principle though.
> Most competition related trapping works on the base of first pin the body and move outwards to an extremity. You disable the large before going after the small.
> Whereas alot non-competition traps work from the extremities inwards, disabling the smaller to gain access to the larger.
> 
> ...


 

I agree. I was just pointing out that trapping wasn't useless, and that all of the above who pooped on it, though applying it differently, still ended up "trapping". The principle for me is trapping itself. The ways of doing it are adapted, opponent to opponent, but the overall result is the same.


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## Seeking Zen (Jan 31, 2007)

Last night we had sparring class.  I am not sure where it came from or how it has developed but I have this block / trap that just fell into place.  It is kind of a middle area block (chudan uki...nice spelling) that while deflecting the opponents blow wraps around the opponents forearm / elbow. It traps the hand near or at the armpit and locks the elbow with your wrist. This was successful twice last night ...once led to take down both times I managed multiple blows. So it seems to work for me for now.  Mind you I am still very new...maybe it was fluke.  So overall I think traps work depending on the opponent and situation.  Maybe even more important is what you do with precious flash of time immediately after a successful trap or lock.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 31, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> I agree. I was just pointing out that trapping wasn't useless, and that all of the above who pooped on it, though applying it differently, still ended up "trapping". The principle for me is trapping itself. The ways of doing it are adapted, opponent to opponent, but the overall result is the same.


 
I think the problem is that not enough people train to adapt it to different situations, its one of those skills which people prefer to only practice within their "comfort zone".
Most people who would practice pre-emptive trapping or as an isolated techniques, are not likely to have to have tried using them on an experienced grappler.
And most competitive fighters are highly unlikely to train in techniques that occur prior to conflict.
Just a case of people not really examining what goes on outside what they do I guess.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 31, 2007)

Seeking Zen said:


> Last night we had sparring class. I am not sure where it came from or how it has developed but I have this block / trap that just fell into place. It is kind of a middle area block (chudan uki...nice spelling) that while deflecting the opponents blow wraps around the opponents forearm / elbow. It traps the hand near or at the armpit and locks the elbow with your wrist. This was successful twice last night ...once led to take down both times I managed multiple blows. So it seems to work for me for now. Mind you I am still very new...maybe it was fluke. So overall I think traps work depending on the opponent and situation. Maybe even more important is what you do with precious flash of time immediately after a successful trap or lock.


 
It tends to be a textbook technique in a lot of striking styles. Be pretty careful about ever trying it against an experience fighter though.


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## Robert Lee (Jan 31, 2007)

If you look at a trap as a removel tool. Removing the obstruction to be abl to hit. Then you have a working tool .To trap and not have the follow up then you trapped to just be trapping. Which does not work as well. Traps are not easy to apply if you try. But easy when you just do them. Think of a trap as a by product to hit or to clinch or any offence move. Kinda opening the door


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## kidswarrior (Jan 31, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Thats always good for a laugh. Hmmm.
> 
> Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.


 

Speaking of good for a laugh! Just the sight of me standing there in nothing but the altogether would probably do them in!!!!! :uhyeah: Great self defense strategy! And a bonus: The less I train, the more effective my technique (think: _*sag*_).


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## kidswarrior (Jan 31, 2007)

Good question. This one actually made me think. So, here's my opinion. 

All of us have preferences and different natural aptitudes in fighting. I'm a natural striker, so woudn't rely on grappling much unless I had no choice (in training and teaching, of course, I can't afford to leave anything out; but just talking about me personally now--and by the way, I'm way too old to care about sport fighting--so this applies only to street). 

Given my preference, the times I have actually used a trap have come from first blocking a strike or pinning a grab (both already mentioned by others). So, trapping would not be my lead move (unless I was attempting suicide), nor would it be my final move: I trap in order to effect a takedown. I believe if a fight becomes inevitable, it should end on the ground--_for him._

OK I'm done. :soapbox: I promise to make most posts much shorter. :whip1:


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## 14 Kempo (Jan 31, 2007)

I am a kempo practitioner and I use trapping all the time. I do not hold onto the trap, but use it to manipulate my opponent to an off-balance situation where I can take advantage. We utilize many different types of traps in our system. I would agree that if you trap and hold onto it, it may get you into an unwanted situation.


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## shrek (Feb 2, 2007)

Trapping...Effective

Sadly it is not focuused on as often as it should be in training.  In Aikido/judo/etc  it IS the focus but a lot of instructors in other arts have a tendancy to pass trapping by in favor of flashy kicks & strikes.  

I'll also relate my first experience with a trap...I got caught in a right hand wristlock when trying to break up a fight at a bar I worked at early in my career, of course it stopped my progress and got my full attention.  I couldn't pull free and since USTA TKD didn't teach joint locks/traps/sweeps or defense against them, I was stuck.  Since I was near a wall I grabbed the guy by his ponytail with my left hand and smashed his head against the wall until he passed out & let go.  I ended up with a lightly sprained wrist and a burning desire to know how to deal with that sort of thing so Aikido became my next training ground.  You live, you learn, you adapt.


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## Drac (Feb 2, 2007)

shrek said:


> Sadly it is not focuused on as often as it should be in training. In Aikido/judo/etc it IS the focus but a lot of instructors in other arts have a tendancy to pass trapping by in favor of flashy kicks & strikes/quote]
> 
> Sad but true...


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## Robert Lee (Feb 2, 2007)

Traps do take time to understand. But if you trap just to trap they really do not workout. If you can hit do not trap if you can kick do not trap. If you can do any offence or defence move no need to trap. Now if you need removel trap to enter Perhaps trap to  exit a hold And go on. people make the mistake of trying to trap and it does not work Trap and  follow up Like a block if you do not follow up you get hit agin same with traps And live training traps to must be for the moment Or something changes. Even Bruce moved away from traps When not needed, By product of hitting Is a way to look at trapping. If you can slip and hit why trap Traps are good if just done when needed They tie up the limb long enough to do something Legs to can be trapped just as arms


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## DavidCC (Feb 2, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Thats always good for a laugh. Hmmm. Also though of another factor - clothes. Most trapping is easily done because a person goes to grip a piece of clothing, whereas in a ring fight they are usually lacking in grippable tops.
> Hence my new policy for self-defence: I shall now when threatened, shed my clothes and fight with naught to fear but pneumonia.


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