# What is TSD history?



## Kframe

I was curious of the history of TSD, it is listed as a korean MA but based on what i have seen it is very different from tkd or hapkido. So that makes me curious about its origins. I read on here that it has its origins in Okinawa, and ive read else were on the net that it has its origins in the tang dynasty-the tang so warriors. 

SO is there some place i can go to get a good look and rundown of the true lineage of TSD and were its founding sources come from?


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## MAist25

From what I understand is that Hwang Kee founded Hwa Soo Do, but later changed the name to Tang Soo Do because it more easily recognized it as a martial art style. He was a practitioner of Karate as well as Kung Fu and combined them into TSD. From what I gather is that many of the hand strikes of Tang Soo Do come from Kung Fu, with Northern Chaun Fa as the main style he studied, while the kicking techniques come mostly from Shotokan Karate, Taekkyon, and Subak. Most of what he gathered from Okinawan styles of Karate came from his study of books rather than his actual practice in those arts. I could be wrong, but this is my basic understanding of the development of Tang Soo Do. Hopefully one of the more experienced TSD guys can come explain further.


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## Kframe

Really, so its not tht old of a art then. My question is, why does the lil caption for this forum say that this art traces its history  more then 2000 years?


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## MAist25

It is not a very old art, it was created just after WWII. The reason it can trace its history back is because of the arts that make up TSD. Subak and Taekkyon are extremely old traditional Korean arts and the Chinese Kung Fu is very old as well.


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## Tez3

TSD is Shotokan karate with bits missed out and more kicks put into the katas.


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## dancingalone

MAist25 said:


> It is not a very old art, it was created just after WWII. The reason it can trace its history back is because of the arts that make up TSD. Subak and Taekkyon are extremely old traditional Korean arts and the Chinese Kung Fu is very old as well.



Depending on the accounts you believe, the connections to Subak and Taekkyon are tenuous indeed, and current Soo Bahk Do people are very quiet about what forms of Chinese MA GM Hwang practiced.  Either they don't know a great degree themselves or the information is kept under wraps for some reason.

From my perspective, it's most accurate to refer to TSD/SBD as a modern form of Korean karate infused with kicking influences from Tae Kwon Do along with some Chinese/Okinawan characteristics.  However, it's hard to say to what extent the latter plays in the daily practice of students as the bulk of gup level skills taught are probably standard hard style karate.  Keep in mind this is my observation over the years (I even trained for a while in a CS Kim dojang) - if your dojang shows other material earlier, that's great.


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## MAist25

Yes I have heard Kee's connections with Subak and Taekkyon are disputed, I'm just going by what he says. I heard that Taekkyon masters today often state that Kee did not have any formal training in taekkyon, but like I said, I'm just going by what connections could make this art one with roots in very old Korean styles. From what I know, like you stated, is that Tang Soo Do is mostly based on Japanese Karate.


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## puunui

Krillan said:


> SO is there some place i can go to get a good look and rundown of the true lineage of TSD and were its founding sources come from?



Try reading the translation of "A Modern History of Taekwondo".


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## puunui

MAist25 said:


> From what I understand is that Hwang Kee founded Hwa Soo Do, but later changed the name to Tang Soo Do because it more easily recognized it as a martial art style. He was a practitioner of Karate as well as Kung Fu and combined them into TSD. From what I gather is that many of the hand strikes of Tang Soo Do come from Kung Fu, with Northern Chaun Fa as the main style he studied, while the kicking techniques come mostly from Shotokan Karate, Taekkyon, and Subak. Most of what he gathered from Okinawan styles of Karate came from his study of books rather than his actual practice in those arts. I could be wrong, but this is my basic understanding of the development of Tang Soo Do. Hopefully one of the more experienced TSD guys can come explain further.



Gee, how do you respond to that....


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## puunui

MAist25 said:


> It is not a very old art, it was created just after WWII. The reason it can trace its history back is because of the arts that make up TSD. Subak and Taekkyon are extremely old traditional Korean arts and the Chinese Kung Fu is very old as well.




Original tangsoodo has no connection to soobahk or taekkyon, although there is a historical connection to "kung fu", through okinawan toudejutsu.


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## puunui

dancingalone said:


> Depending on the accounts you believe, the connections to Subak and Taekkyon are tenuous indeed, and current Soo Bahk Do people are very quiet about what forms of Chinese MA GM Hwang practiced.  Either they don't know a great degree themselves or the information is kept under wraps for some reason.




I understand there is a taegeukkwan form, which I am thinking is a taichi form, as well as a jangkwon form, as far as soobahkdo moo duk kwan goes.


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## puunui

dancingalone said:


> From my perspective, it's most accurate to refer to TSD/SBD as a modern form of Korean karate infused with kicking influences from Tae Kwon Do along with some Chinese/Okinawan characteristics.  However, it's hard to say to what extent the latter plays in the daily practice of students as the bulk of gup level skills taught are probably standard hard style karate.  Keep in mind this is my observation over the years (I even trained for a while in a CS Kim dojang) - if your dojang shows other material earlier, that's great.



I visited the Soo Bak Do Hwe headquarters of GM HWANG Kee back in 1989 or 1990 when it first opened. We watched a class, and the students spent almost the entire class practicing going from a joonbi position stepping forward into a front stance low block. There was no mat, and instead they trained on a beautiful hardwood floor. I don't think it was a spring loaded floor, because when they moved into the front stance low block, the floor made a hard ungiving sound. They did look good doing that front stance low block, I must say.


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## dancingalone

puunui said:


> I understand there is a taegeukkwan form, which I am thinking is a taichi form, as well as a jangkwon form, as far as soobahkdo moo duk kwan goes.



I've read some accounts that say GM Hwang was a Yang tai chi chuan stylist.  Supposedly this influence made it through to the Chil Sung patterns he designed.  A lot of TSD people are interested in that long fist form you refer to.  I honestly don't understand the appeal myself, but admittedly it is interesting in a historical sense.


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## puunui

MAist25 said:


> Yes I have heard *Kee*'s connections with Subak and Taekkyon are disputed, I'm just going by what he says. I heard that Taekkyon masters today often state that *Kee* did not have any formal training in taekkyon, but like I said, I'm just going by what connections could make this art one with roots in very old Korean styles.



GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee.


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## Kframe

I dont have time to read all the responses right now, but im surprised at the mention of CMA, which implies kung fu in my mind. What are the kung fu influences. I can tell the okinawan influence, i took karate for a bit and some of it looks related.  

Secondly, i was watching on youtube a demonstration of the first basic form. In it, after the low block, the practitioner would raise his hand up and straight to shoulder level then punch with the other hand. Both hands usually were clenched in a fist. What is the purpose of this move? It dosent look like a block, or anything else. Is it a badly executed punch? I saw several online doing that form the exact same way.

Ok lol ima have to start a new thread about my other questions regarding the art, and its techniques.


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## puunui

dancingalone said:


> I've read some accounts that say GM Hwang was a Yang tai chi chuan stylist.  Supposedly this influence made it through to the Chil Sung patterns he designed.



In the book, the History of the Moo Duk Kwan published in 1995 or so, GM Hwang stated that he learned chinese martial arts while stationed in Manchuria during the late 1930's, 1936, 37, somewhere around there. He said his teacher's name was Master YANG Kuk Jin. GM LEE Won Kuk did confirm that prior to learning from GM HYUN Jong Myung at Seoul Station, GM HWANG Kee did have some prior martial arts training, but no karate training. Also, the Shotokan had a form set developed by FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei called the Taikyoku. Taikyoku is pronounced Taeguek in Korean, similar to the pronunciation of Tai Chi in Korean, Taeguek. The basic form set taught at the Moo Duk Kwan included the Taikyoku forms, but instead of calling it Taeguek, GM Hwang chose instead to call it Kibon or Basic forms. Only my speculation, but I think he did that because he wanted the name Taeguek for the taichi that he learned in Manchuria. 




dancingalone said:


> A lot of TSD people are interested in that long fist form you refer to.  I honestly don't understand the appeal myself, but admittedly it is interesting in a historical sense.



GM Hwang did have a relationship with GM YOON Byung In, supposedly since both learned martial arts in Manchuria. GM Yoon taught a form called Jang Kwon and there are videos of it on youtube, I believe with GM KIM Soo demonstrating. It is a two man set. Only speculation, but the Jang Kwon being demonstrated by GM Kim and his student on youtube is probably the one that is listed in GM Hwang's book.


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## MasterPistella

That is the jang kwon form GM Hwang learned. I have the pleasure of knowing Master Peter Paik. He father was GM Kim, Ki Whang's senior student in Korea and was there when all these Grandmasters mentioned above trained together. I asked, and Master Paik Sr. confirmed this. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago, but his son is still teaching in Masison, WI. Very knowledgeable about what really happened during the early days of the kwans being formed.


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## puunui

MasterPistella said:


> That is the jang kwon form GM Hwang learned. I have the pleasure of knowing Master Peter Paik. He father was GM Kim, Ki Whang's senior student in Korea and was there when all these Grandmasters mentioned above trained together. I asked, and Master Paik Sr. confirmed this. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago, but his son is still teaching in Masison, WI. Very knowledgeable about what really happened during the early days of the kwans being formed.



Thank you for that. So one mystery solved, the Moo Duk Kwan Jang Kwon and what it looks like. Can I ask you, what is Master Peter Paik's father's name? Is that GM PAIK Sang Kee? If so, he used to attend USTU events and meetings so I got to at least bow to him.


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## MasterPistella

You know what. I never did get his first name. lol I only ever heard him refered to as "Dr. Paik" Even GM Roberts & his wife called him that. I'll have to ask. I would bet that is it tho. Master Peter Paik's "real" name is Sang.


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## puunui

MasterPistella said:


> You know what. I never did get his first name. lol I only ever heard him refered to as "Dr. Paik" Even GM Roberts & his wife called him that. I'll have to ask. I would bet that is it tho. Master Peter Paik's "real" name is Sang.



I have a vague recollection of people referring to GM PAIK Sang Kee as "Dr. Paik". I think it is the same gentleman. "Paik" is an unusual spelling for that particular surname. Usually is is spelled Paek or Baek.


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## kbarrett

The true history and origins of TSD have been best to death, as one person said it all depends on who you believe.  GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do.  GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it. During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.  I believe it was in the 50's mabe the 60's he started the slow change to become Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji which really influenced him a lot. This is what I have come to learn, again there are so many different stories I wonder whether it really matters any more. Ken


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## Makalakumu

I wonder how much Hwang Kee's job on the railroad affected the spread of his school?  I read that there was a dojang in a whole bunch of train stations all around South Korea.


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## puunui

kbarrett said:


> GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do.



According to GM Lee, he came back to Korea in January 1944 and opened the Chung Do Kwan in September 1944, not 1945. 




kbarrett said:


> GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it.



I think GM Hwang learned tai chi in Manchuria but not long fist. There is a form called jang kwon which is part of the moo duk kwan curriculum, but we established that GM Hwang Kee learned jang kwon from GM YOON Byung In. 



kbarrett said:


> During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.


 
He started training with one of GM Lee's students, GM HYUN Jong Myung while both were working at Seoul Station, in 1944 I believe. He hung around the Chung Do Kwan and would attend all of the belt tests, but I don't think he actually studied directly under GM Lee. I believe GM Lee said that he studied with GM Hyun at Seoul Station, that GM Hyun asked GM Lee to give GM Hwang rank, and GM Lee gave him a 6th guep, white belt.


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## kbarrett

Your right GM Won Kuk Lee studied Okinawan Karate (Shotokan) while in Japan, but when he returned to Korea and after he got permission from the Japanese to open a school he started teaching Okinawan Karate calling his art "Tang Soo Do" I believe it wasn't until after the liberation of Korea in 1945 the GM Won Kuku Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan and it was at that point that his style came to be known as the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do and today it's known as the Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  GM Hwang Kee's Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was founded in November 1945 after his return from China, where he studied "Tai Chi Chuan" as for the "Long Fist" I'm not 100% sure whether he studied that or not but that is what I've herd over th years.  From what I've learn over the year GM Kee did study at the Chung Do kwan, and got the rank or 6th gup. and some time after that he startedtraining with Ki Wang Kim where it's said GM Kee learned the bulk of the Hyungs that are in the Tang Soo Do system today, and in 1947 GM Kee reopened his Moo Duk Kwan dojang calling his art Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, and would be many years later that he start making the changes to Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji in the library, he is also the one who created the Yuk Rho, Chil Sung, Hwa Sun Hyung from what he learn from the Muye Dobo tonji, this is waht I've come to learn after all these years,andwhile it's great learning different history I'll still say does it really matter any more who started what first, that was in 1945 most us wheren't born yet, and now it's 2012 we're all so far removed from that period time. Mr. Puunui I have enjoyed talking with about thsi subject thank you, take care. Ken


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## puunui

kbarrett said:


> Your right GM Won Kuk Lee studied Okinawan Karate (Shotokan) while in Japan, but when he returned to Korea and after he got permission from the Japanese to open a school he started teaching Okinawan Karate calling his art "Tang Soo Do" I believe it wasn't until after the liberation of Korea in 1945 the GM Won Kuku Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan and it was at that point that his style came to be known as the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do and today it's known as the Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do.



GM Lee opened the Chung Do Kwan in 1944. It is on the Chung Do Kwan certificates in the middle of the symbol, the date 1944. The name Tangsoodo and Chung Do Kwan were used at the same time. GM Lee created the name Tangsoodo. GM Lee said that he had to temporarily shut down the Chung Do Kwan after the liberation in August 1945 because the country was in chaos. He reopened the Chung Do Kwan in February 1946 when things settled down. 




kbarrett said:


> GM Hwang Kee's Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was founded in November 1945 after his return from China, where he studied "Tai Chi Chuan" as for the "Long Fist" I'm not 100% sure whether he studied that or not but that is what I've herd over th years.



The seniors dispute that November 1945 opening date, saying there is no evidence of that. 




kbarrett said:


> From what I've learn over the year GM Kee did study at the Chung Do kwan, and got the rank or 6th gup.



That information originally came from me, the 6th guep white belt thing. The Chung Do Kwan still has those records. 



kbarrett said:


> and some time after that he startedtraining with Ki Wang Kim where it's said GM Kee learned the bulk of the Hyungs that are in the Tang Soo Do system today,



My understanding is that GM KIM Ki Whang had a good relationship with GM HONG Chong Soo (Moo Duk Kwan #10) and would visit GM Hong's dojang and teach there. I believe GM Hwang met GM Kim through GM Hong. By the way, GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee. 




kbarrett said:


> this is waht I've come to learn after all these years,andwhile it's great learning different history I'll still say does it really matter any more who started what first, that was in 1945 most us wheren't born yet, and now it's 2012 we're all so far removed from that period time.



It matters if someone truly wishes to understand what happened, and why. It's always better to have a clear picture, rather than a muddled one.


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## IRISH KMA

I have intended to ask this question for awhile but was afraid it would turn into the proverbial mud slinging thread.  My question is how much formal training did GM Hwang Kee really have and was he experienced enough to start his own kwan?  The reason I ask is because I come from a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do background. I have always figured there had to be something there when you see some of the skilled martial artist that it has turned out.


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## kbarrett

Puunui, I stand corrected the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do was started in 1944, my mistake.  
As for GM Hwang Kee's experience and starting his own Kwan, I'd yes he did have enough experience even though his history is some what cloudy.  We know he trained in China learning Yang style Tai Chi chuan, and maybe had some training in shaloin Long Fist and he did open a dojang teaching his own style calling it Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan which failed and closed, some time bewteen then and 1947 he spend time learn Okinawan Karate under GM Won Kuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan which he only reciveved a 6th gup ranking, along with train with others who had learn Okinawan Karate and reopened his dojang in 1947 calling it Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, whether his rank was legit or not I'm not so sure, the Moo Duk Kwan has produced some very good martial artist of the last 50 plus year so he must have done something right. So did he have enough experince yes, was he a Grand Master yes, he was successful in creating something that has last for over 60 plus years and is still going strong. Ken


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## puunui

IRISH KMA said:


> My question is how much formal training did GM Hwang Kee really have and was he experienced enough to start his own kwan?  The reason I ask is because I come from a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do background. I have always figured there had to be something there when you see some of the skilled martial artist that it has turned out.



We do not really know how much formal instruction he received. I can tell you that at least by the late 50's/early 60's, GM Hwang was considered a terrific martial artist. One of my teachers did his military service in at the Korean Air Force Academy as a martial arts instructor. GM Hwang was the head instructor there, so for three years, my teacher got personal instruction from GM Hwang. My instructor said that GM Hwang was excellent, and that he learned many things from him.


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## MasterPistella

GM Hwang was an awesome man. He used to spend a lot of time at our school. C S Kim's before Master Kim left the federation. This is the question & it's a matter of opinion. Did he study with or under GM Lee? He taught Lee some things, Lee taught him some things. This I got from someone who was there. His formal training, by his own admission was very limited. He learned by watching Tae Kyun & only had a couple years of Tai Chi training. Despite that, he became one of the greatest martial artists of his time.


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## Obi1

puunui said:


> Thank you for that. So one mystery solved, the Moo Duk Kwan Jang Kwon and what it looks like. Can I ask you, what is Master Peter Paik's father's name? Is that GM PAIK Sang Kee? If so, he used to attend USTU events and meetings so I got to at least bow to him.



Yes!!!  That is correct!!!


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## Obi1

MasterPistella said:


> You know what. I never did get his first name. lol I only ever heard him refered to as "Dr. Paik" Even GM Roberts & his wife called him that. I'll have to ask. I would bet that is it tho. Master Peter Paik's "real" name is Sang.



Jack, my Korean name is Sung.


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## JR 137

Obi1 said:


> Jack, my Korean name is Sung.


Whoever “Jack” is, he hasn’t been in this discussion for going on 6 years now.  Just sayin’.


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## DaveB

This article is the most comprehensive history of modern Korean ma that I have encountered. There may be better for TSD but I've not found it.

History of Tae Kwon Do - FightingArts Forums


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## lklawson

JR 137 said:


> Whoever “Jack” is, he hasn’t been in this discussion for going on 6 years now.  Just sayin’.









Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## dvcochran

Kframe said:


> I dont have time to read all the responses right now, but im surprised at the mention of CMA, which implies kung fu in my mind. What are the kung fu influences. I can tell the okinawan influence, i took karate for a bit and some of it looks related.
> 
> Secondly, i was watching on youtube a demonstration of the first basic form. In it, after the low block, the practitioner would raise his hand up and straight to shoulder level then punch with the other hand. Both hands usually were clenched in a fist. What is the purpose of this move? It dosent look like a block, or anything else. Is it a badly executed punch? I saw several online doing that form the exact same way.
> 
> Ok lol ima have to start a new thread about my other questions regarding the art, and its techniques.


I would need to see the move but it partially sounds like bad form. Raising the ready hand is to have the Um Yong or Yin Yang in the punch. You are "pulling" with the ready hand as hard are you are "pushing" with the punching hand. Also intended to help use the whole body. It is annoying to watch any style practitioner do a shoulder level punch. Totally dysfunctional. I always tell students to use the shoulder as a gauge; middle punch below the shoulder targeting the solar plexus, high punch above the shoulder targeting the philtrum. My GM (Seoung Eui Shin, www.mastershinonline.com) is deeply rooted in TSD.


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## Tames D

Jack is having a smoke. He'll be back.


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## Bruce7

puunui said:


> I visited the Soo Bak Do Hwe headquarters of GM HWANG Kee back in 1989 or 1990 when it first opened. We watched a class, and the students spent almost the entire class practicing going from a joonbi position stepping forward into a front stance low block. There was no mat, and instead they trained on a beautiful hardwood floor. I don't think it was a spring loaded floor, because when they moved into the front stance low block, the floor made a hard ungiving sound. They did look good doing that front stance low block, I must say.


Sounds like my classes in the 70's, only it was tile.


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## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> I would need to see the move but it partially sounds like bad form. Raising the ready hand is to have the Um Yong or Yin Yang in the punch. You are "pulling" with the ready hand as hard are you are "pushing" with the punching hand. Also intended to help use the whole body. It is annoying to watch any style practitioner do a shoulder level punch. Totally dysfunctional. I always tell students to use the shoulder as a gauge; middle punch below the shoulder targeting the solar plexus, high punch above the shoulder targeting the philtrum.
> 
> My GM (Seoung Eui Shin, www.mastershinonline.com) is deeply rooted in TSD.


So your GM may teach TSD, but called it Taekwondo.
I maybe wrong but I think my GM taught TSD /MDK, but called it Taekwondo


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## Bruce7

kbarrett said:


> The true history and origins of TSD have been best to death, as one person said it all depends on who you believe.  GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do.  GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it. During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.  I believe it was in the 50's mabe the 60's he started the slow change to become Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji which really influenced him a lot. This is what I have come to learn, again there are so many different stories I wonder whether it really matters any more. Ken


I have read he found the wooden book in 1957 and then stared changing Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.


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## Bruce7

puunui said:


> I think GM Hwang learned tai chi in Manchuria but not long fist. There is a form called jang kwon which is part of the moo duk kwan curriculum, but we established that GM Hwang Kee learned jang kwon from GM YOON Byung In.
> 
> 
> I don't think he studied long fist, I have studied long fist, I don't see long fist in TSD.


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## Dirty Dog

Bruce7 said:


> So your GM may teach TSD, but called it Taekwondo.
> I maybe wrong but I think my GM taught TSD /MDK, but called it Taekwondo



Very easy to determine. What forms did you learn?



Bruce7 said:


> I have read he found the wooden book in 1957 and then stared changing Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.



He didn't find the book. It was in a museum. The story is interesting, but it seems unlikely that it could have changed the art all that much. I have a copy. It's like <1% about unarmed combat.


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## Bruce7

Dirty Dog said:


> Very easy to determine. What forms did you learn?
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't find the book. It was in a museum. The story is interesting, but it seems unlikely that it could have changed the art all that much. I have a copy. It's like <1% about unarmed combat.


From the videos I have watch the forms were* Tang So Do* *ki cho hyung il bu basic forms, *after 40 years I don't remember the names just the movements.
I have to see them to know if I have done them.


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## Dirty Dog

Bruce7 said:


> From the videos I have watch the forms were* Tang So Do* *ki cho hyung il bu basic forms, *after 40 years I don't remember the names just the movements.
> Varies H and I forms don't remember the names



That's weird. Kicho means basic. Bu is another term used for basic (or junior). Hyung is a word for forms.
So they were called basic form basic basic forms.
From what I know, the kicho forms are far more generic, and are generally the ones taught to brand new students. What did you learn later? Pinan? Palgwae? SongAhm?

Just as an FYI, you can easily find copies of the Muje Dobo Tongji (the book...) and see for yourself. It's interesting, but, as I said, I don't see it making any significant change. I suspect that the whole Soo Bahk Do change was motivated more by a desire to create ties to ancient Korea. Much like the silly claims that TKD is a 2000 year old Korean art.


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## Bruce7

Dirty Dog said:


> That's weird. Kicho means basic. Bu is another term used for basic. Hyung is a word for forms.
> So they were called basic form basic basic forms.
> From what I know, the kicho forms are far more generic, and are generally the ones taught to brand new students. What did you learn later? Pinan? Palgwae? SongAhm?


It will take a while I will  look at the forms tommorow and tell you which ones I learn. I know it was *not *SongAhm I am learning them now.


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## Bruce7

From videos these forms look familiar
* 
Basic Forms   
1 Ki cho Hyung iL Bu                   
2 KI CHO HYUNG E BU                         
3 Ki Cho Sam Bu                          *
4 ? Have not found                                               
5? Have not found 

*Pinan - Pyung
1 Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
2 Pyung Ahn Ee Dan             
3 Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
4 Pyung Ahn Sa Dan   
5 Pyung Ahn Oh Dan

Others I have not found Yet
*


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## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> So your GM may teach TSD, but called it Taekwondo.
> I maybe wrong but I think my GM taught TSD /MDK, but called it Taekwondo


Like you, my Grand Master, Seoung Eui Shin has taught TKD since coming to the U.S. in 1874. He is deeply rooted in the Moo Duk Kwan and is high rank in Xingyiquan Kung Fu. His Kung Fu combines with our TKD stances making them deeper and longer than most.


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## Bruce7

Most of the Taekwondo I have seen looks a little different from what I was taught.
I have been trying to find out what I was taught in the early 1970's.
Karate was on the windows and I was told it was Taekwondo, some students said it was Moo Duk Kwan.
So l have been trying to get information on my *Grandmaster Saejin “Jack” Hwang.*

From my reading he put karate on the windows because people did not know what Taekwondo was.
He taught* Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan* in the 1960's, but sometime later when he join the ITF 
and later WTF he changed the name to Taekwondo.

In 1995 *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan *changed to *Soo* *Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.*
So I guess I was taught *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan, *which is now* Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan*
It is hard to find your roots, because the names keep changing.

Then again I discovered Hwang Kee read a 400 page wooded book and changed *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in 1957.*
So my GM would have been teaching the *Pre 1957* *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan.*
So I guess I was taught something that does not exist any more.
I am such a dinosaur.

Does any one know if Hwang Kee taught Saejin Hwang?
I have not found it written.
In 1932 Saejin Hwang was born in Korea. Since he did not come to the states until 1957,
it is only logical one would think he was taught by Hwang Kee.


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## dvcochran

My current research shows Moo Duk Kwan TSD started in 1949 by Hwang Kee. I suspect that will be disputed though. I do not have any references to Saejin Hwang.

Hope this helps.


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## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> My current research shows Moo Duk Kwan TSD started in 1949 by Hwang Kee. I suspect that will be disputed though. I do not have any references to Saejin Hwang.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thank you.


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## Dirty Dog

Bruce7 said:


> From videos these forms look familiar
> 
> *Pinan - Pyung
> 1 Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
> 2 Pyung Ahn Ee Dan
> 3 Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
> 4 Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
> 5 Pyung Ahn Oh Dan*



Those forms are taught in Tang Soo Do schools. 



Bruce7 said:


> Most of the Taekwondo I have seen looks a little different from what I was taught.
> I have been trying to find out what I was taught in the early 1970's.
> Karate was on the windows and I was told it was Taekwondo, some students said it was Moo Duk Kwan.



Karate was often used for it's familiarity, and is still used by the general population as a generic term for all martial arts.
Taekwondo is the name of the system. Moo Duk Kwan is the name of the school/style/organization.



> He taught* Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan* in the 1960's, but sometime later when he join the ITF



Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, not Tang Soo.



> and later WTF he changed the name to Taekwondo.



Kukkiwon, not WTF.



> Then again I discovered Hwang Kee read a 400 page wooded book and changed *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in 1957.*



I don't know how many pages were in the original. My copy is about 400 pages, but it's paperback book size, not 8.5x11 full size.
The section on unarmed combat amounts to not quite 16 pages of that, and shows nothing remotely resembling forms or anything of the sort. It's pretty much a description of a ritual dance that competitors use to greet each other.
The rest of the book covers various weapons, on horseback or on foot. Some of those sections include what could be considered forms specific to the weapon under discussion.
There's really no reason to think this book did anything to change TSD. It did, however, give an opportunity to form a connection to pre-occupation Korea. Which was very important to Koreans of that day.



> So my GM would have been teaching the *Pre 1957* *Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan.*
> So I guess I was taught something that does not exist any more.
> I am such a dinosaur.



Sure it exists. There are still TSD schools all over the world. There may not be one in the strip mall down the road from you, but they certainly still exist.
And there's no real big difference between TSD MDK and Soo Bahk Do MDK.



> Does any one know if Hwang Kee taught Saejin Hwang?
> I have not found it written.
> In 1932 Saejin Hwang was born in Korea. Since he did not come to the states until 1957,
> it is only logical one would think he was taught by Hwang Kee.



The logic doesn't follow. GM HWANG had several schools scattered along a rail line. Each school had instructors.


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## Bruce7

Dirty Dog said:


> Those forms are taught in Tang Soo Do schools.
> 
> 
> 
> Karate was often used for it's familiarity, and is still used by the general population as a generic term for all martial arts.
> Taekwondo is the name of the system. Moo Duk Kwan is the name of the school/style/organization.
> 
> 
> 
> Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, not Tang Soo.
> 
> 
> 
> Kukkiwon, not WTF.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how many pages were in the original. My copy is about 400 pages, but it's paperback book size, not 8.5x11 full size.
> The section on unarmed combat amounts to not quite 16 pages of that, and shows nothing remotely resembling forms or anything of the sort. It's pretty much a description of a ritual dance that competitors use to greet each other.
> The rest of the book covers various weapons, on horseback or on foot. Some of those sections include what could be considered forms specific to the weapon under discussion.
> There's really no reason to think this book did anything to change TSD. It did, however, give an opportunity to form a connection to pre-occupation Korea. Which was very important to Koreans of that day.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it exists. There are still TSD schools all over the world. There may not be one in the strip mall down the road from you, but they certainly still exist.
> And there's no real big difference between TSD MDK and Soo Bahk Do MDK.
> 
> 
> 
> The logic doesn't follow. GM HWANG had several schools scattered along a rail line. Each school had instructors.



Thank you for your reply , it has been helpful. Sorry for misspelling should have used TSD/MDK.
My first Martial Art School was the strong base from which I learn other MA.* I needed to know what the true name of that Art and Style was. *You have help confirm the true name of my first art and style.
Your information on the book is helpful and logical.  People still write the myth that GM Hwang change TSD after reading the book.
Thank you for explaining the Myth.
People also say GM Hwang learn Long Fist while in China. Since I train in Long Fist, I think the Long Fist think is a Myth also.
He may have learn Kung Fu, But I don't think it was Long Fist.

I am training in Taekwondo right now, I have a very good teacher and since it is less than 10 minutes away I am there almost everyday.
*Someday I want to train in TSD/MDK again, it like your first love.*
The problem is the school is 1 1/2 to 2 hrs in Houston Traffic one way.  So it could take 4 hrs just to get to school and back.


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