# Chi Sao- Crossing the bridge



## futsaowingchun (Jun 12, 2014)

Buddha Hand Wing Chun main Chi Sao Concept called " Snake creeping up the bamboo" First time made available to the public..


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## Marnetmar (Jun 13, 2014)

I would think grabbing the opponent's pak sau would simply cause him to switch over to tan sau, and coming closer to the opponent with a tan sau wouldn't really work if his fok sau was in a more proper position. Stepping around the guy, especially while taking two steps, does not seem like a good idea either.


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## mook jong man (Jun 13, 2014)

If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.

Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.

Even if you did manage to get to his elbow , the easiest and most simple counter is for him to just sink his elbow into Tan Sau and your lateral force on his elbow gets redirected down to the ground.

This stuff is only going to work against people who try to fight against force and don't know anything.


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 13, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.
> 
> Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.



Yup. mook jong man beat me to this response! In 99% of the wing chun out there...if you look closely, the situation is the same within these chi sau demonstrations, etc. Anyone who actually follows WC principles would have landed a strike.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 13, 2014)

It's all about the forward intention, baby.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 13, 2014)

By the way...first time made available to the public? I am cautious of ANYONE who claims they are harboring one of those mystical, mythical "ancient Chinese secrets."


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## JPinAZ (Jun 13, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.
> 
> Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.
> 
> ...



People view chi sau many different ways and as many different things, but I agree with 'mook here - regardless how you view it, you can't argue with basic geometry & physics. Well, you can try, but arguing with a science seems a bit counter productive


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## geezer (Jun 13, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> If the small guy had decent forward force you would already be hit as soon as you left his wrist.
> 
> Against somebody with no forward force , you can pretty much make anything work.
> 
> ...



Actually _Mook_, the concept of changing your angle (side-stepping or better, just by _turning_ and shifting your center laterally) and slipping your _fook-ing hand _hand forward to control the elbow can work very well against a partner with_ excessive forward pressure_. 

There are a lot of variations of this technique, but in all you essentially, shift your center laterally, release your stick (while still retaining contact) and let his arm shoot forward, allowing your hand to move up his arm on centerline forcing it across his body. Then you can strike freely with the other hand. Moving the hand forward up your opponent's arm can be facilitated with a gripping or lap-ing movement that helps straighten your opponent's arm so you can slide up it like a rail. See the videoclip of my former sifu below:






And, yes _Mook_, it is easy to obstruct or counter this movement if you are aware and ready. Still, it is part of one of the basic chi-sau sequences we train because it teaches a lot of movement concepts stressed in our lineage.


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## mook jong man (Jun 13, 2014)

geezer said:


> Actually _Mook_, the concept of changing your angle (side-stepping or better, just by _turning_ and shifting your center laterally) and slipping your _fook-ing hand _hand forward to control the elbow can work very well against a partner with_ excessive forward pressure_.
> 
> There are a lot of variations of this technique, but in all you essentially, shift your center laterally, release your stick (while still retaining contact) and let his arm shoot forward, allowing your hand to move up his arm on centerline forcing it across his body. Then you can strike freely with the other hand. Moving the hand forward up your opponent's arm can be facilitated with a gripping or lap-ing movement that helps straighten your opponent's arm so you can slide up it like a rail. See the videoclip of my former sifu below:
> 
> ...



It can work , just not the way it is done in the O.P
In my version I step 45 degrees  to the side and at the same time grab their wrist and parry the elbow with the other hand , in a sort of two handed arm drag type thing.
Then hit them , or clothes line them as they come flying past.

This is very effective , but even with this , after a few times they begin to wake up and start sinking the elbow and pivoting back into you making it impossible to pull off.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 13, 2014)

as i mentioned in the video this is not about application but using the concept and then using it anyway you like..


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 13, 2014)

I have used this agaist all kinds of forward force the results are the same. its like saying if i use foreword force on your tan sao it would collapse. it depends. its all in the timing which you dont see.if my opponent moves first he i can move anywhere i want on his bridge..


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 13, 2014)

this is the first time available to the public...prove me wrong?? BTW no mystical, ancient chinese secret..did I say it was??


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## Marnetmar (Jun 14, 2014)

One of the problems with the whole "first time available to the public" thing is that it forgets the idea that WC is concept based, rather than technique based. I'd think other WC guys could perform the same techniques you're showing without knowledge of Fut Sao provided that the opponent's structure (or lack thereof depending on how you look at it) allowed for it.


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## mook jong man (Jun 14, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have used this agaist all kinds of forward force the results are the same. its like saying if i use foreword force on your tan sao it would collapse. it depends. its all in the timing which you dont see.if my opponent moves first he i can move anywhere i want on his bridge..



Well it's not quite as simple as just having forward force.
Its how that forward force is utilized.

In the video the small guy stays in Bong Sau making it easy for you as you creep up his arm.
In my lineage  that loss of wrist contact would result in dropping straight back into Tan Sau and hitting through. 

All it needs is a slight deviation of the wrist off centerline and they will open up that gap like a crack in a wall.


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2014)

I assume this is a trick that helps your game not the one thing that breaks chi sau. 

Of course you can counter it.

You guys approach this concept in a really weird way.


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## geezer (Jun 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I assume this is a trick that helps your game not the one thing that breaks chi sau.
> 
> Of course you can counter it.
> 
> You guys approach this concept in a really weird way.



Absolutely. And, yes, Wing Chun people tend to be really weird. 


_Drop--  _of course,all chi sau is just energy training. Your _game _is what you can do with that training when you apply it!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2014)

In WC Chi Shou, what will be your 1st reaction if your opponent grabs your wrist?


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In WC Chi Shou, what will be your 1st reaction if your opponent grabs your wrist?



Depends on the grab, where it is exactly, what direction, if any, it is pushing or pulling my wrist, how much exertion it has, etc. Your question is kinda open-ended and liable to get a wide variety of responses. Care to give any more details?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Depends on the grab, where it is exactly, what direction, if any, it is pushing or pulling my wrist, how much exertion it has, etc. Your question is kinda open-ended and liable to get a wide variety of responses. Care to give any more details?



How about just a simple "right hand grabs on the right wrist". Your opponent then tries to pull your body into him (or to use the counter force to pull his body into you). It's a method to move in from a long range into a medium range. When he pulls, his punch also comes toward your face.

This is a good example of "cross the bridge". This will also break the Chi Shou format. Now your arm and your opponent's arm are no longer "stick/glue" together but "hook" together.


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about just a simple "right hand grabs on the right wrist". Your opponent then tries to pull your body into him (or to use the counter force to pull his body into you). It's a method to move in from a long range into a medium range. When he pulls, his punch also comes toward your face.



Well, it is difficult to answer without being there and actually having you try this on me...but based solely on what you have typed, I can tell you that basic WC principes would tell me/my body/limbs to move forward as you pull. As the punch enters into range, I would most likely jam it. I know that sounds vague but these sort of discussions are difficult via a forum. 
Thanks.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Well, it is difficult to answer without being there and actually having you try this on me...but based solely on what you have typed, I can tell you that basic WC principes would tell me/my body/limbs to move forward as you pull. As the punch enters into range, I would most likely jam it. I know that sounds vague but these sort of discussions are difficult via a forum.
> Thanks.


I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou.   I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be.  Some people may

- use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
- use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
- drop his elbow straight toward his opponent's chest,
- ...

If someone grabs my wrist, I'll rotate my hand and grab back on his wrist instead. So to reverse my wrist grabbing will be my "1st reaction".


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou.



You are correct, but mostly from present day "Masters" and "Grandmasters". Have a look around at the more famous of these and you'll see that they tend to grab on with both hands so that the young buck they are chi sau'ing with can't "embarass" them. Sickening really.    



Kung Fu Wang said:


> I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be.  Some people may
> 
> - use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
> - use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
> ...



To your above three options:
1) not me
2) perhaps, but other hand
3) perhaps (depends on where grab is, and other variables)

A WC saying I've heard is: "when hands are tied up, use the legs". So, if you were to grab both of my hands/wrists, etc...I'd kick you in the balls.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou.   I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be.  Some people may
> 
> - use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
> - use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
> ...



My personal strategy of when people grab my arms is to thank them for setting up my lock/throw which is what I assume you would be doing as well Wang.


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## mook jong man (Jun 14, 2014)

Assuming that we are working from chi sau in this hypothetical.
A wrist grab doesn't just materialise out of thin air , there has to be some preparation movement to get to that point , as with any other trap.

There will be a change in the rhythm and the flow of energy , a slight change in muscular tension that you perceive from the opponent , these signs will tell you that an attempted trap is imminent or maybe a grab.
That is the time to counter these things , not when the grip has been consolidated.

In the type of chi sau I am familiar with , conventional grabbing using the thumb is not really used , apart from being too  damn slow compared to open handed pinning movements and wrist latching.

It also takes longer to disengage from the limb in case you have to use that hand to defend against an incoming strike , but anyway I digress.

Assuming that I haven't been able to dissolve the attack in it's infancy so to speak and I have been wrist grabbed then there are many options available.

Leaving out all the variables for a moment such as , am I being pulled , pushed , is he grabbing and punching with the other hand etc.
The simplest thing in the world to do is just punch straight through the centerline with the other hand  the instant you are grabbed . In all but the very best people there will usually be a weakness on the opposite arm that is not applying the technique , for a brief moment their force will be uneven as their brain concentrates on the arm doing the attack.

If you are being held from moving into punching range  , then snap kick the groin , medium heel kick the bladder , low heel kick the knee/shin.
Hell , do all three in quick succession.

These are simple and very basic , if you want to get fancy you can use other things like simply cutting down with your arm through the weakest part of their grip , their thumb.

You can also rotate your arm at the same time as you pull it back , this breaks the grip and pulls them into a simultaneous punch and kick.
You can utilise the fulcrum effect and break the grab by rotating your elbow over their arm , aiming for the centerline and striking the sternum with the point of your elbow , also posssibly breaking his wrist depending on hard he wants to hold on.

There's also a combined , leg lock , arm break and throw , there are hundreds of these things.
So the answer is what's your first reaction when being grabbed.

The answer is how long is a piece of string?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> if you were to grab both of my hands/wrists, etc...I'd kick you in the balls.



Try this with your training partner. 

- You grab both of your opponent's wrists.
- Your opponent kicks you.
- You use a "fast downward" pull/shake on him.

Try this 10 times and see how many times that your opponent's kick can reach to your body.

If my opponent has grips on me, he can release his grips anytime that he wants to. I have to deal with his grips first before I can do anything on him. When I try to deal with his grips, he tries to do something else on me. He is already one step ahead of me. This is why my "1st reaction" to wrist grip is to reverse the situation and grip on my opponent's wrist instead. I like to put my opponent in "defense" mode. I don't like to let my opponent to put me into "defense" mode.


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## yak sao (Jun 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In WC Chi Shou, what will be your 1st reaction if your opponent grabs your wrist?




Punch him in the face


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> My personal strategy of when people grab my arms is to thank them for setting up my lock/throw which is what I assume you would be doing as well Wang.


If your opponent uses neck tie on you, he just gives you a free arm control. Your arm control can be more powerful than his neck tie. But the wrist grip is different. The wrist grip is a set up for something else. The moment that you pay attention on your opponent's wrist grip, the moment that you may just fall into his "set up".

IMO, you should try very hard not to let your opponent to grab you. In case that happens, you should do the following:

- Rotate your hand in the direction that against his thumb - to break his grip and grip back on him.
- Raise your elbow and drop your elbow straight into his chest - a very power attack.

Any other reaction will be too slow. When you have a fish on your fishing hook, whether you want to let that fist go (by cutting the fishing line) is up to you. It's not up to the fish.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Punch him in the face


- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- Your left hand punch at his face.
- His right hand pulls your right arm to your left across your body, and spin your body to your left.
- Your own right arm will jam your own left arm.
- Your left hand will not be able to reach to his face.

When your opponent grabs your wrist, he can do this to you, but you can't do this to him (when you try to do this to him, he can let go his grip - he has hook on you. You don't have hook on him). That will be his advantage.


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2014)

There is a whole bunch of wrestling solutions to wrist grabs. No idea if it will work for chi sao.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yVKDdc086zI


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## geezer (Jun 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent uses neck tie on you, he just gives you a free arm control. Your arm control can be more powerful than his neck tie. But the wrist grip is different. The wrist grip is a set up for something else. The moment that you pay attention on your opponent's wrist grip, the moment that you may just fall into his "set up".
> 
> IMO, you should try very hard not to let your opponent to grab you. In case that happens, you should do the following:
> 
> ...



Both of the above are common responses to a wrist grab in WC. There are many other possibilities as well depending on the nature of the grab --a pull? a push?a jolt? a cross arm-drag? In the practice of chi-sau, a grab is not anything special. When your opponent grabs your arm, he doesn't gain any net advantage. By grabbing and fastening onto your wrist he limits his own options as well as yours. As the saying goes, _"when he grabs your wrist you both become one-armed men!"_


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2014)

geezer said:


> _"when he grabs your wrist you both become one-armed men!"_



That's true. But he can become 2 arms man fast than you can.


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## blindsage (Jun 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou.   I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be.  Some people may
> 
> - use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
> - use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
> ...


Way too focused on hands.  Someone grabs your wrist you should thank them for occupying that hand.  The other 90% of your body is free to embarrass him for grabbing you.


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## mook jong man (Jun 15, 2014)

yak sao said:


> Punch him in the face



That reminds me of something funny that happened years ago.
I was at a friends house , and his young son who was aged about two or three at the time thought  it would be amusing to pick up his toys and throw them at me.

After dodging various cars , trucks , power ranger figures etc he decided to come in closer to have a go , and with his hand poised to unleash another projectile at my head I quickly grabbed his wrist and told him in no uncertain terms to stop it.
In frustration he punched at the back of my hand about 10 times with his free hand in a rapid fire fashion , saw it had no effect , so he switched targets and  punched me right in the face.

Of course I let go , it was a pretty good shot for a toddler , that kid is probably about 21 years old now , so I'm thinking its probably time for a bit of payback lol.


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## Marnetmar (Jun 15, 2014)

An over the top wrist grab can be countered by rolling the elbow over the other dude's arm not unlike the move in Biu Jee. Or one could simply swipe their hand under and over (or over and under) the opponent's wrist much like the wrist movements in Biu Jee.

If both wrists are grabbed, cross one wrist over the other and roll underneath and over the top (some lineages use this as the opening to their sil lim tao form), if done correctly one can go straight into WC's man sau-wu sau "guard" stance and already be on the guy's outside with both of his hands there as well, making a tackle very difficult. If a hand is being grabbed and held high, the same elbow roll applies.


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## yak sao (Jun 15, 2014)

To say "this is what I would do if someone grabbed my wrist during chi sau..." is only fooling yourself.
There are too many variables.
Is it a strong grab, a weak grab. Crossing energy, pulling or pushing energy. pushing. 

Depending, you could use huen sau, kau sau, bong sau, biu bong sau, lop sau, tan sau, tak sau, shoulder strike, elbow strike.................and this is only on the side that was grabbed, you still have a limitless amount of options with the other hand depending on what's going on with that.

I maintain my original answer, punch him in the face. In other words, do the simplest thing that will allow you to hit him.


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## mook jong man (Jun 15, 2014)

yak sao said:


> To say "this is what I would do if someone grabbed my wrist during chi sau..." is only fooling yourself.
> There are too many variables.
> Is it a strong grab, a weak grab. Crossing energy, pulling or pushing energy. pushing.
> 
> ...



Its actually the first thing we used to teach beginners before they started learning any of the more advanced arm grab counters.
Just a simple centerline punch to the face with the free hand.

People always seem to want to do something fancy and tend to overlook the most simple things.


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Try this with your training partner.
> 
> - You grab both of your opponent's wrists.
> - Your opponent kicks you.
> ...



To each his own dude.


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## Marnetmar (Jun 15, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> To each his own dude.



Since when is this a valid statement at all?


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## mook jong man (Jun 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Try this with your training partner.
> 
> - You grab both of your opponent's wrists.
> - Your opponent kicks you.
> ...



You wont be able to use a downward shake on him , because  he would already be in the process of levering down through your thumbs and simultaneously kicking.

Most people have probably trained at schools like mine where we go through extensive reflex training involving random arm grabs , throat grabs , lapel grabs etc.
You can reach a level of skill where the counter has already commenced before the grip is even fully completed , we spend a large percentage of the time in chi sau countering some very fast and sophisticated trapping techniques where you are pinned and a strike is launched at your face from very short range at a million miles per hour.

Do you really and truly think that we wont be able to sense when somebody is trying something as cumbersome as attempting to grab our wrists?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Do you really and truly think that we wont be able to sense when somebody is trying something as cumbersome as attempting to grab our wrists?



You can always use punch to set up your grab. 

Not too long ago, I met a very famous WC master (I train WC myself too). 

- I punched him with my right hand, 
- he blocked with his right arm (his forearm contacted with my forearm),
- my right hand slide down from his right forearm to his right wrist,
- my left hand moved to his right elbow,  
- he ...

Not only my right hand could grab on his right wrist, my left hand could also control his right elbow. I used my punch to set up my wrist control. I didn't just grab ...


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## mook jong man (Jun 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can always use punch to set up your grab.
> 
> Not too long ago, I met a very famous WC master (I train WC myself too).
> 
> ...



Who was this so called very famous Wing Chun master ?
Give us a name.

Because I guarantee if you tried it on my late Sifu , he would have hit you before you even finished moving.


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## Marnetmar (Jun 15, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can always use punch to set up your grab.
> 
> Not too long ago, I met a very famous WC master (I train WC myself too).
> 
> ...



If I'm picturing this correctly, he should have been able to roll his elbow over your grab, even with your left hand on his elbow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> If I'm picturing this correctly, he should have been able to roll his elbow over your grab, even with your left hand on his elbow.



I tried to use my left hand to "lift up" his right elbow, used my right hand to "push down" his right wrist, and tried to achieve an arm lock on him. If he rolled his elbow over my right hand wrist grab, that would help me. Instead, he dropped his right elbow down to against my lift force. My left hand let go his right elbow, slides to his right wrist, grabbed his right wrist, and free my right hand. This way, my free right hand can deal with his free left hand. My right hand then grabbed on his left wrist. I then used his left arm to press across on his own right am. Everything had happened with in 1/2 second.


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I assume this is a trick that helps your game not the one thing that breaks chi sau.
> 
> Of course you can counter it.
> 
> You guys approach this concept in a really weird way.




This about wrist grabs.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 15, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Well it's not quite as simple as just having forward force.
> Its how that forward force is utilized.
> 
> In the video the small guy stays in Bong Sau making it easy for you as you creep up his arm.
> ...



This is a teaching demo not a live chi sao match. I'm here to teach . I'm not doing it for real. I could do that to but what would be the point of that..I hear people say all the time I can do this I can do that..not so easy..


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## geezer (Jun 15, 2014)

I'm having a hard time visualizing this exchange, and I'd ask if you could post a clip ...but it's still pointless. To sort out these kinds of questions, you really have to get the interested parties together and work it out physically. It's much more instructive and way less boring than hammering away on a keyboard.


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## wtxs (Jun 16, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> _*Buddha Hand Wing Chun main Chi Sao Concept*_ called _*" Snake creeping up the bamboo"*_ First time made available to the public..





wingchun100 said:


> By the way...first time made available to the public? I am cautious of ANYONE who claims they are harboring one of those mystical, mythical "ancient Chinese secrets."



Cut the man some slack ... he's referring to one of his Futsao linage WC concept.

Anyone having problem with the Futsao ways should be asking why they do what they do as compares to your linage.  You can also point out the positive/negative as you would understand them in reference to your linage.

Futsao come on the forum to share HIS version of WC, if we can't an open mind and try to accept how he or other linage interpret their art, then we have no effective communication, this forum will degenerate into the likes of many others out there ... your choice ...


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## wingchun100 (Jun 16, 2014)

I have no problem with his lineage per se. I have problems with people claiming they have a "secret training method." That makes me suspicious, no thanks to all the charlatans out there.


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## wtxs (Jun 16, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I have no problem with his lineage per se. I have problems with people claiming they have a "secret training method." That makes me suspicious, no thanks to all the charlatans out there.



I do understand what your are saying, I don't see Futsao had claim this "snake creeping up the bamboo" concept as you had pointed out an "secret training method" ... secret methods don't get eye balled by the public ... carry on ... with open mind ...


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## wingchun100 (Jun 16, 2014)

wtxs said:


> I do understand what your are saying, I don't see Futsao had claim this "snake creeping up the bamboo" concept as you had pointed out an "secret training method" ... secret methods don't get eye balled by the public ... carry on ... with open mind ...



What he wrote could be interpreted that way...something like "the first time being shared with the public."


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## wtxs (Jun 16, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> What he wrote could be interpreted that way...something like "the first time being shared with the public."



Agreed.  However, what he had wrote above can also be interpreted in many other ways ... it all depend on the life experience of the particular reader.

Personally I don't see what he presented as anything but a different expression of an snake element, as with the "Bong" element, they are within the realm of different lineages of WC.

If you had figured a better way use an ..lets say an garn sao, and haven't seen anyone used that way before and you posted the video, you now will be the first to release that concept to the public ... will you get the same feed back as the OP? :hmm:


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## wingchun100 (Jun 17, 2014)

wtxs said:


> Agreed.  However, what he had wrote above can also be interpreted in many other ways ... it all depend on the life experience of the particular reader.
> 
> Personally I don't see what he presented as anything but a different expression of an snake element, as with the "Bong" element, they are within the realm of different lineages of WC.
> 
> If you had figured a better way use an ..lets say an garn sao, and haven't seen anyone used that way before and you posted the video, you now will be the first to release that concept to the public ... will you get the same feed back as the OP? :hmm:



I wouldn't have phrased it that way. I would have said, "What do you guys think of this interpretation of..."


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## wtxs (Jun 17, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I wouldn't have phrased it that way. I would have said, "What do you guys think of this interpretation of..."



Very good point.  Anyone wish to share their particular way of training need to consider the way they present their material, such as what you've said above ... should put things in perspective.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 17, 2014)

wtxs said:


> Very good point.  Anyone wish to share their particular way of training need to consider the way they present their material, such as what you've said above ... should put things in perspective.



When the only way you have to communicate are words on a page/forum, and people  can't hear your tone of voice or see facial expressions, vocabulary is all you have...which makes it THAT much more important.


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## wtxs (Jun 17, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> When the only way you have to communicate are words on a page/forum, and people  can't hear your tone of voice or see facial expressions, vocabulary is all you have...which makes it THAT much more important.



WC100, I'm glade we are on the same page.  The kind of dialog we been having on this thread is what I'm referring to as effective communication ... with respect, without judgement, digs, negative put downs, etc.  That is an huge factor why I like/stay on this forum, I visit others to be entertain by their chaos and bickering.

It's a given we will not agree with each other 100% on any thing ... but that's what makes us individually unique.

Now get back to more training! :whip:


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## mook jong man (Jun 17, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> This is a teaching demo not a live chi sao match. I'm here to teach . I'm not doing it for real. I could do that to but what would be the point of that..I hear people say all the time I can do this I can do that..not so easy..



You have a point there , often times a counter I have thought up seems feasible on paper , but has been found wanting when it came to realistic application.
You win some , you lose some , the truth always becomes apparent in the laboratory of chi sau.

But I am rather curious now as to what your method , or methods of recovery may be if the "Snake creeping up the bamboo" has failed.
Say for example the opponent has sensed your intention , and dropped straight back into Tan Sau and has started to move forward wedging  the said Tan Sau past your "Creeping Snake " technique and is headed for your neck.

I have an idea of what I  would do , but I would be interested in hearing what your tactics would be.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 18, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I have no problem with his lineage per se. I have problems with people claiming they have a "secret training method." That makes me suspicious, no thanks to all the charlatans out there.



please show me where I said This is "secret training method'' your full of ****..your making to much out of this.. I call you on your ********?? please provide your evidence other wise retract your statement...


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 18, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> What he wrote could be interpreted that way...something like "the first time being shared with the public."



this statement is correct..if you can prove me wrong then please provide me with the evidence.. I said nothing about secret.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 18, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> You have a point there , often times a counter I have thought up seems feasible on paper , but has been found wanting when it came to realistic application.
> You win some , you lose some , the truth always becomes apparent in the laboratory of chi sau.
> 
> But I am rather curious now as to what your method , or methods of recovery may be if the "Snake creeping up the bamboo" has failed.
> ...



the answer is at 4:15-4:25 which is only one way. But to say what would I do i would have to chi sao with you then you would know. Every time is different. When I do "Snake creeping up" it;s not a technique,but a way of doing chi sao,so it can't fail.only a technique can fail. When I creep up your bridge you wont know it until its to late. because its a non threatening passive move. So this type of chi sao I believe is unique to my lineage,and this is only a peice of it not the whole thing.there is much more.


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## Marnetmar (Jun 18, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> please show me where I said This is "secret training method'' your full of ****..your making to much out of this.. I call you on your ********?? please provide your evidence other wise retract your statement...



I think we're done here.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 18, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I think we're done here.



Agreed.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 18, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> this statement is correct..if you can prove me wrong then please provide me with the evidence.. I said nothing about secret.



You said "first time being revealed to the public." That can be interpreted the way I did. You want proof it could be read that way? Well, you already got it...because I already wrote it!

And I'm not retracting my opinion.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Jun 18, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> please show me where I said This is "secret training method'' your full of ****..your making to much out of this.. I call you on your ********?? please provide your evidence other wise retract your statement...



Doesn't seem like a very Buddhist response from a 'Buddha Hand Wing Chun' master....


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## wingchun100 (Jun 18, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> Doesn't seem like a very Buddhist response from a 'Buddha Hand Wing Chun' master....



Quite a remarkable catch there! I didn't even think of that!


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 18, 2014)

This thread represents a prime example of one of the reasons why WC has been chosen to be one of my secondary arts and not my primary art. 

In my opinion he's actually kind enough to make some videos and post on a public forum of some of his lineages concepts for us to either learn from or ignore. 


Does it really matter if he said its the first time available to the public and if it actually is the first time? 

Maybe we should be forum scholars and open our minds up to different teachings instead of being forum warriors.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 18, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> You said "first time being revealed to the public." That can be nterpretedi the way I did. You want proof it could be read that way? Well, you already got it...because I already wrote it!
> 
> And I'm not retracting my opinion.[/
> 
> I want proof that my statement is false not your interpretation.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 18, 2014)

it's obvious your a troll..


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## geezer (Jun 18, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> it's obvious your a troll..



Naw, he's just stubborn and grouchy. If we want to keep this forum positive, let it go. I didn"t see anything all that new about the concepts you shared either, but so what? I still appreciate you posting the clip.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 18, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> This thread represents a prime example of one of the reasons why WC has been chosen to be one of my secondary arts and not my primary art.
> 
> In my opinion he's actually kind enough to make some videos and post on a public forum of some of his lineages concepts for us to either learn from or ignore.
> 
> ...



Agree with you 100% there.

When someone puts up a clip, the 1st thing that I look is "can I learn something from it?" If I can learn something, it's a valuable clip to me. Whether that clip was put up the 1st time, or it was put up the 100th times, it's still a good clip.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 18, 2014)

If someone is willing to share his "first time revealed information" to the public, whether you consider that "f1st time revealing" as "secret" or not, it has nothing to do with his generosity that he is willing to share.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If someone is willing to share his "first time revealed information" to the public, whether you consider that "f1st time revealing" as "secret" or not, it has nothing to do with his generosity that he is willing to share.



Oh please, compared to some of the things that have been said to ME on this site, that was a harmless comment. I'll express the same philosophy that has been shared with me when I complained about certain remarks: if you don't like it or can't handle it, then don't post on the boards. I've had people reply to my threads with remarks that were basically calling me stupid, but you don't see me whining about it.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 19, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> it's obvious your a troll..



A "troll" is someone who hangs around constantly posting nothing but negative comments. Go ahead and scroll through the 950 comments I have made: hardly any are negative.


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## wtxs (Jun 19, 2014)

Times out guys please ... I need to refill my bucket of popcorn and ice chest ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 19, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I've had people reply to my threads with remarks that were basically calling me stupid,....



I'll never do that to anybody. I just suggest that a WC guy should support another WC guy. It's not easy to find someone who shares the same interest as you do.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 19, 2014)

geezer said:


> Naw, he's just stubborn and grouchy. If we want to keep this forum positive, let it go. I didn"t see anything all that new about the concepts you shared either, but so what? I still appreciate you posting the clip.



There is nothing new in MA..perhaps a different flavor with a twist but that is all. Appreciation is appreciated.


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## mook jong man (Jun 19, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> the answer is at 4:15-4:25 which is only one way. But to say what would I do i would have to chi sao with you then you would know. Every time is different. When I do "Snake creeping up" it;s not a technique,but a way of doing chi sao,so it can't fail.only a technique can fail. When I creep up your bridge you wont know it until its to late. because its a non threatening passive move. So this type of chi sao I believe is unique to my lineage,and this is only a peice of it not the whole thing.there is much more.



Ok just watched the parts you specified , after you have jammed the bicep what would be his counter to that , in your lineage?
Off the top of my head , in our lineage we would probably pivot and roll in to a low bong sau , if your hand gets trapped inside his bicep there could be a possibility of getting your arm broken at the elbow joint.

The other counter might be what we call a "reverse'' Tan Sau , do you have that in your lineage?
Basically , unlike your normal Tan Sau which goes forward , this Tan Sau goes backward due to pivoting , think of rolling with both your arms one in Bong , and the other in Tan.

 On the Tan Sau side you pivot back , that is the "reverse'' Tan Sau.

It's used to break the opponents structure by causing a dual , pushing /pulling force , he gets dragged in by the Tan Sau on one side and his structure is left compromised on the other and vulnerable to collapse.
This would also counter the bicep jam.

But since your lineage does these bicep jamming techniques , I would be interested in knowing what counters have evolved to deal with them.


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## yak sao (Jun 19, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll never do that to anybody. I just suggest that a WC guy should support another WC guy. It's not easy to find someone who shares the same interest as you do.




Yep...or should I say "Yip", since we're talking wing chun.
With all our differences, we still have more in common with each other than we do with any other martial artist from another system.


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## yak sao (Jun 19, 2014)

I would love the opportunity to cross hands with other lineages. They are few and far between in my part of the world.
Getting to hear others talk about and even demo their take on our art, while not an even trade for crossing hands with them, is definitely a plus.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 19, 2014)

I like the move at 4.54 that he uses his right arm to "jam"' both of his opponent's arms at the same time. If you can do that to your opponent, you will have one free hand to punch on his face.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 19, 2014)

geezer said:


> I'm having a hard time visualizing this exchange, and I'd ask if you could post a clip ...but it's still pointless. To sort out these kinds of questions, you really have to get the interested parties together and work it out physically. It's much more instructive and way less boring than hammering away on a keyboard.



Since you had asked, I just made this clip 3 hours ago for exactly what I was talking about in another thread "A civilized way to prevent a fight".


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## mook jong man (Jun 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like the move at 4.54 that he uses his right arm to "jam"' both of his opponent's arms at the same time. If you can do that to your opponent, you will have one free hand to punch on his face.



That's a pretty stock standard trap in most Wing Chun I would say , you just rotate the Bong Sau around their Fook Sau to collapse it then pin their other hand.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 20, 2014)

I've watched a few times and seem to be missing exactly how his Bong Sau ends up on TOP of the opponent's Fook Sau at 4:54 to perform that pinning action Kung Fu Wang pointed out. Wouldn't this require dis-engaging from the starting position of Bong Sau being below the Fook Sau?
This is not a criticism at all, just a newb question.


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## mook jong man (Jun 20, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> I've watched a few times and seem to be missing exactly how his Bong Sau ends up on TOP of the opponent's Fook Sau at 4:54 to perform that pinning action Kung Fu Wang pointed out. _*Wouldn't this require dis-engaging from the starting position of Bong Sau being below the Fook Sau?
> This is not a criticism at all, just a newb question*_.



No , it doesn't require disengaging.

It is a little bit confusing for you because the opponent is the one initiating the attack and Futsao is using it to counter.
But this particular trap can also be used as an attack all by itself.

Imagine you are rolling away , as you get into Bong Sau  , you let your angle collapse a little in your Bong Sau and bring your elbow over to the centerline. (this can also be an elbow strike).

The elbow rotates around his Fook Sau pushing it sideways and pinning it , making sure to keep your elbow high so that his Fook Sau stays trapped , your same hand then goes down and pins his Tan Sau.
You then strike with your free hand.

You can use it by stepping in , you can use it by pivoting or you can use it as Futsao has done and let the opponent initiate an attack and come to you.

Does that help make it a bit clearer?


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## wtxs (Jun 20, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> No , it doesn't require disengaging.
> 
> It is a little bit confusing for you because the opponent is the one initiating the attack and Futsao is using it to counter.
> But this particular trap can also be used as an attack all by itself.
> ...



Mook, hope you don't mind me piggy back on to what you've wrote about the elbow usage.  In training the "trapping" aspect of Chi Sao, we also employ the elbow strike like you had suggested.

Since one of the WC concept/principle is about economy of motion, the lower arm whips up with an back fist or open back hand into the face which is coming forward from the elbow strike into the chest (if that's the target), without disengagement of the other hand, and still give you the option of "chain" the counter attack as with your cross pin/trap ... just one of the way we do it, and yes I'm well aware that "main" stream WC has no back fist in their bag.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 20, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> No , it doesn't require disengaging.
> 
> It is a little bit confusing for you because the opponent is the one initiating the attack and Futsao is using it to counter.
> But this particular trap can also be used as an attack all by itself.
> ...



Ah ha, that was a "lightbulb" moment, makes sense now. Thanks Mook. Now that I realize what he is doing, it reminds me of a movement my Sifu had used before when someone tried to Pak Sau or trap his only free hand. He would step in further bringing the elbow around the Pak Sau to then swing the forearm over and down on the clavicle area. I have no idea what that is called but it looked cool as heck, going around an obstacle when you can't go thru it.


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## mook jong man (Jun 20, 2014)

wtxs said:


> Mook, hope you don't mind me piggy back on to what you've wrote about the elbow usage.  In training the "trapping" aspect of Chi Sao, we also employ the elbow strike like you had suggested.
> 
> Since one of the WC concept/principle is about economy of motion, the lower arm whips up with an back fist or open back hand into the face which is coming forward from the elbow strike into the chest (if that's the target), without disengagement of the other hand, and still give you the option of "chain" the counter attack as with your cross pin/trap ... just one of the way we do it, and yes I'm well aware that "main" stream WC has no back fist in their bag.



Well after that initial pin with the elbow you can do pretty much anything you want.

One of my instructors was quite fond of bringing the elbow over the Fook Sau and dropping it down really fast so that your head was quite violently dragged down , and then with the same hand he would give you an uppercut under the chin.
After almost biting my own tongue off I learned the value the value of keeping your mouth shut when performing chi sau lol.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like the move at 4.54 that he uses his right arm to "jam"' both of his opponent's arms at the same time. If you can do that to your opponent, you will have one free hand to punch on his face.




This is called one hand controls two.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 22, 2014)

A thing to remember is there is no one perfect move. many different possible actions can be taken. Use simple easy and direct that's the way to do it.



> if your hand gets trapped inside his bicep there could be a possibility of getting your arm broken at the elbow joint.


My hand wont get trapped as I have control my partner does not. I can move at will and he can not. It's very difficult to try to explain chi sao like this. the best was is to simply just chi sao together. All these ideas have alraedy have been thought of and there is an answer to. I also know Ip man Wing Chun very well. I trained under Sifu Moy yat and sifu Lee Moy Shan of NYC among others..So I know both systems very well. Wing Chun is Wing Chun.




> But since your lineage does these bicep jamming techniques , I would be interested in knowing what counters have evolved to deal with them.​



Its not a bicep jam its an elbow joint jam.Think of it like a gum sao,but instead of pinning against the body control the joint which is much better. In Fut Sao controling the joints is very important.if you can control the joints the person is helpless. SLT- control wrist,elbow,shoulder joints    CK- control-hip,knee,ancle    BJ- control- neck-and whole spine . ( I know the spine is not a joint like a ball and socket but its moves and therefore can be controled


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 22, 2014)

In fixed step push hands we use what I call the elbow pit jam as well. You can disrupt the balance of your opponent easily by jamming his elbows behind him essentially arching & locking his spine. 

If you do this to both elbows and add a shuffle it usually causes the opponent to step off balance at least one step and it gets you a point. Its very effective in push hands but is done differently.


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## futsaowingchun (Jun 26, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Ok just watched the parts you specified , after you have jammed the bicep what would be his counter to that , in your lineage?
> Off the top of my head , in our lineage we would probably pivot and roll in to a low bong sau , if your hand gets trapped inside his bicep there could be a possibility of getting your arm broken at the elbow joint.
> 
> The other counter might be what we call a "reverse'' Tan Sau , do you have that in your lineage?
> ...






> Off the top of my head , in our lineage we would probably pivot and roll in to a low bong sau


a
I just wanted to add something to your comment.In the Fut Sut lineage we has a say which explains why I did the jamming technique instead of the low Bong Sao,the move you would have done." when we are on top of the opponents bridge we stay on their bridge" to us this is a superior position,and to go to a bong sao would put you in a inferior position.


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## wtxs (Jun 26, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> The other counter might be what we call a "reverse'' Tan Sau , do you have that in your lineage?
> Basically , unlike your normal Tan Sau which goes forward , this Tan Sau goes backward due to pivoting , think of rolling with both your arms one in Bong , and the other in Tan.



In the same instant, quick counter pivot rotation sends the Tan forward as an cutting palm, Biu, punch, etc.  


_[/QUOTE]But since your lineage does these bicep jamming techniques , I would be interested in knowing what counters have evolved to deal with them.[/QUOTE]_ (Sorry, haven't figure out how to split the quoted text)

Try rotating the elbow slightly down and in towards your center, which would bring your forearm and hand positioning onto his center ... now you MAY have an clear path to do whatever counters ...

The suggested solutions are based on using the same arm that is being controlled.  Don't forget you still have the usage of the other side.


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