# Opening a can of worms?



## DanRyunAndrew (Dec 23, 2003)

Well, I hope not! However, as I am, for the most part,  a COMPLETE NOVICE in blades, I fear this post may start a riot!  

I'd like to purchase a matched set of a trainer and a live blade. I'd think that it would be an added edge to traing with the same blade you would be carrying, yes?

OK! So, having said that, what combo's are out there? Are there any that the more experienced members can recommend?

Respectfully,

Andy


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## arnisador (Dec 23, 2003)

Definitely a good idea. I have a trainer for my gunting.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 23, 2003)

The Gunting from Bran Frank, Check Here. BRAM is a member. 

Also, Emerson has some Here and you can get the matching live blade as well.

Also, if you are just looking for a Trainer in Aluminum, check Here for Warrior's Den. Renegade is also a member here.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 24, 2003)

Spyderco offers several of its excellent folding knives with matching factory trainers.  (The Gunting, previously mentioned, is also made by Spyderco.)  Whenever possible, a factory-made trainer from the same manufacturer is definitely the way to go, because it will best match the look and feel of the live knife.


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## Blindside (Dec 24, 2003)

Benchmade offers its 710 as a trainer as well.  The trainer is red handled like the Spydercos.

http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/BM710

Lamont


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

I think benchmade also made a trainer Balisong for a while.  I think they took rejects of real balis and turned them into trainers.  Kind of like a balisong butter knife. This was in the glory days of the bali (80s) so I don't know if they still do it.


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## dearnis.com (Dec 24, 2003)

matching the trainer to the carry blade is a very good idea.  There is also nothing wrong with creating your own if the  manufacturers wont work with you.  There are always low cost knock-offs of high-end knives that can be blunted down for training...but these are best for solo work; not on a living partner!


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## DanRyunAndrew (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *I think benchmade also made a trainer Balisong for a while.*



As it's already been mentioned here....what is the concensus regarding fixed, folding, or BUTTERFLY blades?

Just trying to chaf the wheat a little more!


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DanRyunAndrew _
> *As it's already been mentioned here....what is the concensus regarding fixed, folding, or BUTTERFLY blades?
> 
> Just trying to chaf the wheat a little more!  *



That all depends upon your goal.

The Fixed blade in my opinion is the best, as it is the strongest and can be used a longer blade much easier. Hard to conceal, and unless you are hunting, they are considered out of place.

The Balisong, I like alot and is also a good choice, yet in some areas they are not legal and some police officers look down upon them, as some form of automatic or semiautomatic opening knife.


The Folder is a good choice, for concealment, and or carrying in a pocket where it should not be obvious you have one. 



All of them fall into the blade length issue, for legality.

Waiting for those who have a definite opinion for their choice


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## dearnis.com (Dec 24, 2003)

for self defense...fixed blade.  We did a number of tests during scenario training at one of my clubs; you can not open a folder fast enough under adrenalized conditions.  And yes, that included folding trainers with wave-type mods.
For rapid deployment I like the emerson LaGriff; I have also been working with a Topps street scalpel.  The cold steel spikes and culloden also work well.  All are small blades, cut very well, and are easily hidden.
Legality..whole other ball game.

Chad   

PS- while I do enjoy working butterflys I think a waved lockblade is faster.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> for self defense...fixed blade.  We did a number of tests during scenario training at one of my clubs; you can not open a folder fast enough under adrenalized conditions.



I think "fast enough" is open to interpretation.  There's no doubt that I would prefer a fixed blade to a folder for self-defense, but that's simply not an option for many people, who may legally carry a folder but cannot legally carry a fixed blade concealed.

You may not be able to deploy a folder faster than an assailant can strike, but that does not mean you cannot deploy it for a follow-up.


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## arnisador (Dec 24, 2003)

A fixed blade has so many things going for it compared to a folder--no delay to open it, less likely to break/won't refold, usually has a better guard so your hand won't ride up the blade...it's clearly preferable. I agree with *dearnis.com* that you shouldn't count on being able to open it in time to use it, even for a follow-up, but also with *Sharp Phil* that it may be the only reasonable option (as I feel it is for me, for example).


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## dearnis.com (Dec 24, 2003)

as I said, legality was not the point of my post.  Yes, a folder _may_ be accessible for a follow up, but is best deployed before it is needed, not as it is needed.
And yes, I realize that fixed blades are not an option for many folks.
Do try deploying folding trainers in scenario-type training; it is an eye-opener to play with.

Chad


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## arnisandyz (Dec 24, 2003)

speed of draw, strength, concellment/carry issues of a fixed blade

deployment of folders (including balis), ease of carry

only thing to add would be personal preference. If you live in an a high crime area where a knife might need to be depended on to survive - than fixed. (I'd move!)

some systems of FMA train using the balisong in closed position, loaded fist, semi opening flail, pinching, and of course open.


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## dearnis.com (Dec 25, 2003)

> only thing to add would be personal preference. If you live in an a high crime area where a knife might need to be depended on to survive - than fixed. (I'd move!)




Well said!


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> Do try deploying folding trainers in scenario-type training; it is an eye-opener to play with.



I can't speak to whatever you've experienced, but it's not as impossible as you make it sound.


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## arnisador (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I can't speak to whatever you've experienced, but it's not as impossible as you make it sound. *



I don't think the point is that it's impossible--just that the failure rate is higher than many people expect.

Failure may be due to lack of time in a surprise situation where you're using your hands to defend yourself and can't get at it, fumble-fingers due to lack of adequate practice and/or the intensity of the situation, sweat making your hands slippery, being in an unexpected position (grounded/seated/etc.), and just plain old nerves--let alone Murphy's Law.

I wouldn't carry a folder, as I do at times, if I didn't think there was a reasonable chance of my being able to get it and make use of it--but the point is that there are often circumstances where it won't be feasible to get it a.) out, and b.) open, in time.

Incidentally, Mr. Elmore has written a number of articles on drawing and opening folders that are referenced in this forum, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6943
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6970
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6975


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## dearnis.com (Dec 26, 2003)

Phil-

The point isn't that it is impossible.  The point is that way too many martial artists train with fixed blade folders already deployed, yet carry folders exclusively as their defensive tools.  Do we agree that there is a major training gap here?
To use a firearms analogy this is no different from a person who dutifully goes to the range, becomes a competent stationary shot, but never practices drawstroke, retention, draws from movement, draws on the ground, etc.  This person may be a decent shot, but they have not trained the additional attributes to put that skill to use in a combative situation.
Now let me restate my earlier post; In my opinion, for me, based on my training and experience, I prefer a fixed blade, even a smaller one, for greater ease of deployment and speed of deployment.  
Yes there are legal issues in many jurisdictions as far as carrying a fixed blade.  Guess what; if you use deadly force in a fight you are in for a long night regardless.  And yes, I tend to not consider those issues in making my personal carry decisions; I spend 95% of my time in two states; I am a LEO in one and hold a CCW permit for the other.
Can a person train to be AS effective with a folder.  Probably.  Do most people; even most FMA practitioners?  Honestly?  

As I said, food for thought.  My apologies if the initial point was less clear than it should have been.  But apologies only for lack of clarity.

Chad


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## Cruentus (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I don't think the point is that it's impossible--just that the failure rate is higher than many people expect.
> 
> Failure may be due to lack of time in a surprise situation where you're using your hands to defend yourself and can't get at it, fumble-fingers due to lack of adequate practice and/or the intensity of the situation, sweat making your hands slippery, being in an unexpected position (grounded/seated/etc.), and just plain old nerves--let alone Murphy's Law.
> ...



I think those links are dead to the articles. Could someone revive them? 

My 2 cents on drawing: Practice drawing alot! I need to follow my own advise with this as well. If you can't deploy your weapon fast enough to use it when needed, then it is of no use. This means drawing folders or fixed blades. I can draw a folder as fast or faster then most people can draw their fixed blades; thats if I am wearing my suit and carrying my Kershaw Chive. If I am wearing jeans, a winter coat, and a different folder, I might not be as fast. Even with practicing drawing, though, the best you can hope for is being able to open in a little less then a second. Action is always faster then reaction, so if an attacker is close enough to you, and if there is a gap in your reaction time, this still won't be nearly enough time, and you'll have to defend in some other way until you can deploy your weapon. 

So practice drawing. Fixed blades are faster then folders, but you can get your pretty fast with your folders with practice. But...understand, that it doesn't matter how fast you are....if your attacker has the drop on you, you won't have enough time to deploy your tool, no matter what that tool is, unless its already in your hand. Thats why awareness is important, and having your hand on your weapon before violence escalates is necissary.

Now...how about those links?


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## Cruentus (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DanRyunAndrew _
> *Well, I hope not! However, as I am, for the most part,  a COMPLETE NOVICE in blades, I fear this post may start a riot!
> 
> I'd like to purchase a matched set of a trainer and a live blade. I'd think that it would be an added edge to traing with the same blade you would be carrying, yes?
> ...



Since this is what originally started the thread, I'll respond.

Andy,

It is very good to have your trainer resemble your live blade.

A couple of notes though:

#1 Its completely unessicary to use your live blade for partner work. We've all tried it, and I think most will back me up on this, that training partner drills with a live weapon is stupid and dangerous. And... It actually hinders your training because your partner will be hesitent in coming at you with committed attacks with a live blade.  Your trainer is for your partner work...that's why you bought it.

#2 DO TRAIN with your live blade, however, but solo work. Do train your drawing and cutting targets with your live blade, so you know what it feels like to draw and cut. There is nothing that will replace the feel of a live weapon.

#3 Having said #2, your trainer doesn't have to resemble your fixed blade exactly. For example, some of the guys I have been training carry the Cold Steel Recan Tanto, and they have the trainer that exactly replicates the Tanto. THis is good but not completely nessicary. Now you want your trainer to resemble your live blade for sure; in other words if I carry a 2 1/2 inch blade, I don't want to do all my training with a 12 inch blade. But, If I have a small aluminum trainer that is around the same length as my folder, then I am in good shape. The reason is because I am practicing my drawing and cutting with my live blade....so If I am attacked, my drawing and cutting will be there, and my partner work will fall right into place. I know some might disagree with me here, so I hope I am making sense.

Train, be safe, and have fun!


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## dearnis.com (Dec 26, 2003)

Paul-

yes.

Chad


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now...how about those links?*



Mr. Elmore, can you provide updated links?


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 30, 2003)

> Do we agree that there is a major training gap here?



We do.


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## Dijos (Jan 1, 2004)

The smartest thing you can do is to train with an exact replica of your tool.  That's why the Gunting came in both versions.  Also, as some have mentioned, you must train deployment-without it, training the weapon is senseless.--Joe


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